# Alternative long hive designs



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I got really excited when accidentally found this design - YouTube suggested it to me.
Maybe I will contact the designer and go and see the real thing - this is in Wisconsin, so..

*Parkinson Hive *

(To be sure, the author also has another design - over-complicated/over-engineered IMO - I am not a fan there).


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

I like that tilted angle for the frames. Seems very practical.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> I like that tilted angle for the frames. Seems very practical.


I just loved his design. 
On my to-do list.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> I just loved his design.
> On my to-do list.


mine too. I am thinking of incorporating this into a fridge hive. Make interior boxes at the angle til so that it would fit inside an insulated upright fridge. This would allow you to really take advantage of the space using lang frames.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

velacreations said:


> mine too. I am thinking of incorporating this into a fridge hive. Make interior boxes at the angle til so that it would fit inside an insulated upright fridge. This would allow you to really take advantage of the space using lang frames.


I have several traps that use lang frames in a vertical setup. Door is on the side. So far have not had any bees in them, so no idea how practical it is in fact, but it seems to function Okay.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> mine too. I am thinking of incorporating this into a fridge hive. Make interior boxes at the angle til so that it would fit inside an insulated upright fridge. This would allow you to really take advantage of the space using lang frames.


I see this rather as a 45% slanted nuc hive using regular Lang equipment.
Here is a good video that demonstrates how optimal was the wintering of the bees in this 45% hive (bees did die, but due to the mites, not the hive shortcomings).
(719) Extreme Long Langstroth Autopsy Video - YouTube


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

AR1 said:


> I have several traps that use lang frames in a vertical setup. Door is on the side. So far have not had any bees in them, so no idea how practical it is in fact, but it seems to function Okay.


any photos? How do you access the frames?


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

velacreations said:


> any photos? How do you access the frames?


One whole side is a door, on hinges. I just open the door. If the trap lies on it's back, the frames are in the normal horizontal Lang configuration. It could easily be used as a 5 or 6 frame nuc (one was 6-frame and the others were 5-frame.)


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

AR1 said:


> One whole side is a door, on hinges. I just open the door. If the trap lies on it's back, the frames are in the normal horizontal Lang configuration. It could easily be used as a 5 or 6 frame nuc (one was 6-frame and the others were 5-frame.)


oh, ok, so it stands upright for the bees, and lays down for access? That's cool!


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> I see this rather as a 45% slanted nuc hive using regular Lang equipment.
> Here is a good video that demonstrates how optimal was the wintering of the bees in this 45% hive (bees did die, but due to the mites, not the hive shortcomings).
> (719) Extreme Long Langstroth Autopsy Video - YouTube


It would be very easy to test the concept, just tilt a 5 frame box. I might even do that this week, just needs a stand to hold the nuc box.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> It would be very easy to test the concept, just tilt a 5 frame box. I might even do that this week, just needs a stand to hold the nuc box.


Right.
But the for the concept to work, there needs to be a "special" bottom board with entrance.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Right.
> But the for the concept to work, there needs to be a "special" bottom board with entrance.


I have a bottom vent hole on the bottom of my nucs that could be made into an entrance for this test.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

This is the way I'm thinking of making the Fridge hive. I could fit 2 stories in here. I wouldn't use lang boxes for this, but lang frames. Add entrances and some venting to the fridge, and it's ready to go. It's almost like an AZ/Slovenian hive, but with standard frames and easy to construct.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Look at this set up, they tilt for inspections:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> Look at this set up, they tilt for inspections:


This is a cool idea, but - the Murphy's law works.
I immediately picture how this setup is a disaster waiting to happen.
The Parkinson's hive wins hands down for me - virtually impossible do knock over.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Here's another idea, again, not a fan of the implementation, but the tilting design is very interesting:








The Rotatable Beehive


My patented design mimics the natural cavity of a tree while making the hobby of beekeeping easier for the elderly and those with other disabilities.




www.keepingbackyardbees.com


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

@GregB The designer of the extreme climate hive in your OP here has a facebook group. I have been chatting with them, and others have been building this hive:









Parkinson Hive | Facebook


The Parkinson Hive Group was created to document and share the process of designing and building a new type of bee hive. The goal is to have a platform to get feedback from the group members and...




www.facebook.com


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Glad to see this thread still active. On the fence as far as building a Parkinson, too little time, too many projects... Idea has been kicking around inside my head for a week now. A tilt stand. Easy to knock out in a few hours out of scrap, so if it does not work out in my climate little is wasted. A few quick (and easily reversed) modification to some NUCs and see if they survive the winter. To be scientific should test a bunch both ways and compare, but who has time for that  Obliviously will no longer belong in the long hive sub-forum, so suggestions where to discuss are also welcome.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

William Bagwell said:


> Easy to knock out in a few hours out of scrap,


A matter of fact - all you need to do a *tilted stand* that takes 2-3 regular Lang deep boxes side by side.

I would do the stand easily movable around - make it lower and not on leg (but rather a triangle with a couple of bars just laying on the ground).

I would also make the stand so that I work the boxes while sitting on some box or a stool (not be standing). Lower structure means more stable structure.

Place the boxes side by side on the stand.
Drill enough side holes so that the boxes can become one hive (unless plugged).
Have your main brood box.
Have an expansion box next to it for honey what not.
Or keep them separate.
Or keep the two brood boxes on the ends and a common expansion box between them.
Or keep two smaller nucs in a single box.

Modify the migratory covers a little bit - so they work better for the slanted mode.
Modify the bottoms so the bees fly directly through the floor - just like the Parkinson-original.
The entire thing is mobile (not stationary) - move the boxes one by one - move the stand as needed too.

This is the approach that I would do when get to this project - Parkinson-modified (for mobility and nucs).


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

How much surface area is required to be open between boxes for the bees to consider it one hive box? Does anyone know?


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> I would also make the stand so that I work the boxes while sitting on some box or a stool (not be standing). Lower structure means more stable structure.


Make 2 of these, one for you, one for the hive:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> How much surface area is required to be open between boxes for the bees to consider it one hive box? Does anyone know?


Google about?
It is a well discussed topic (historically too).
Even on beesource there were talks (unsure right now).

ADDED: without much research - several 1" or 1.5" holes; also the expansion box will have its own entrance (optionally).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> Make 2 of these, one for you, one for the hive:


Something like this (edited):


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Something like this (edited):
> View attachment 69680


some sort of tarp or flexible rainproof covering would work well for the green line in your diagram. for inspections, just roll it up on top out of the way.

Maybe old billboard vinyl.


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## Tumbleweed (Mar 17, 2021)

Kudos to him, I like the repurposed lumber, but were it me I’d repurpose some lighter lumber, cause that looks heavy!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> some sort of tarp or flexible rainproof covering would work well for the green line in your diagram. for inspections, just roll it up on top out of the way.
> 
> Maybe old billboard vinyl.


Sure; it will be some flex soft cover under the rigid cover.
Need to think up the ventilation for the winter months (the Parkinson original has good case study to look at first).

With the stand being lower to the ground, it will be easy to insulate/wind break too (beneficial for the smaller nuc wintering).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Tumbleweed said:


> Kudos to him, I like the repurposed lumber, but were it me I’d repurpose some lighter lumber, cause that looks heavy!


Works OK for stationary setup for him.

I'd prefer the lighter summer setup - while having options for additional external winter insulation.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

GregB said:


> Something like this (edited):
> View attachment 69680


Lots of good ideas in your post #20 above, thanks! Here, is there any reason for moving the entrance, other than working with the design of the stand? The Parkinson hive has the entrance holes in approximately the same location they would be in a normal hive. Was thinking a removable plug in the original entrance to let trash out. With the Parkinson style holes as close as possible to the plug. (Or possibly in it...) Easy to redesign the stand so the bar at the bottom is not needed. Cleat on the back to keep it from sliding is one possibility.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Could you make like a slatted rack space under the boxes to avoid drilling holes in the sides? 

I'm thinking like a deeper bottom board essentially with a rack to maintain bee space to the frames and maybe discourage comb in that space. Have the sides of the bottom board removable, similar to a lang entrance reducer, and you could butt up several boxes of different widths (5 frame, 8 frame, 10 frame, etc).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

William Bagwell said:


> Lots of good ideas in your post #20 above, thanks! Here, is there any reason for moving the entrance, other than working with the design of the stand? The Parkinson hive has the entrance holes in approximately the same location they would be in a normal hive. Was thinking a removable plug in the original entrance to let trash out. With the Parkinson style holes as close as possible to the plug. (Or possibly in it...) Easy to redesign the stand so the bar at the bottom is not needed. Cleat on the back to keep it from sliding is one possibility.


Here is another edit of the drawing from above - for discussion.









Regarding.....


> is there any reason for moving the entrance, other than working with the design of the stand?


I want the entrance to be, essentially, a low/bottom entrance.
This is made so that the bees follow the classic "honey above the head" model.
The post-winter videos from the Parkinson-original show how well the setup works (it does very well).

Notice on the picture how using exact same conventional Lang equipment, the "depth" of the hive becomes much larger (vs. the original flat setup). This is very good for optimal wintering setup.

The bottom board is nothing other than a flat piece (plywood or particle board) with drilled through entrances.

The stand I would, personally make from PVC pipes - light, strong, not-rotting, great for mobility.
Built at 45% angle symmetrically, the stand should be indifferent to the top/bottom situation - whatever side lands onto the ground is the bottom.
Here is the rough schematics of the stand - it is truly a see-through stand.
I have not drawn in any additional bars needed to support the boxes - those are, obviously, needed too. The stand width should support 2 or 3 conventional 10F Lang boxes.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> Could you make like a slatted rack space under the boxes to avoid drilling holes in the sides?
> 
> *I'm thinking like a deeper bottom board essentially with a rack to maintain bee space to the frames and maybe discourage comb in that space*. Have the sides of the bottom board removable, similar to a lang entrance reducer, and you could butt up several boxes of different widths (5 frame, 8 frame, 10 frame, etc).


Deeper bottom board is not necessary (just adds a complication and weight) IMO.
You keep thinking of conventional Lang issues - flat, shallow boxes set horizontally.
I don't think this is applicable.

This entire setup can and should be very simple and very light - while taking advantage of the sloping surfaces.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Little more of the same.
Someone may ask - why bother with this? 
I am personally looking for 1)reuse easily available equipment and 2)optimize wintering of smaller colonies in standard setups (for *early *spring resale, for example)


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Deeper bottom board is not necessary (just adds a complication and weight) IMO.
> You keep thinking of conventional Lang issues - flat, shallow boxes set horizontally.
> I don't think this is applicable.
> 
> This entire setup can and should be very simple and very light - while taking advantage of the sloping surfaces.


Well, the idea is that a slatted rack would create more surface area between the hive boxes, so that the bees move in between boxes in that space. I'm not sure that's needed, as a standard bottom might work with the side removed. I do think creating the connection in the bottom board is better than drilling holes in the sides of the boxes.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Little more of the same.
> Someone may ask - why bother with this?
> I am personally looking for 1)reuse easily available equipment and 2)optimize wintering of smaller colonies in standard setups (for *early *spring resale, for example)
> 
> View attachment 69712


If you make the black also a flexible protective layer (tarp), it can completely cover the pink insulation.


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## gjwestfall (May 12, 2021)

GregB said:


> I got really excited when accidentally found this design - YouTube suggested it to me.
> Maybe I will contact the designer and go and see the real thing - this is in Wisconsin, so..
> 
> *Parkinson Hive *
> ...


I have one similar based on his design. I live in Alabama and built it for the heat. I used a frame construction rather than 2x6s. I put 2 nucs, one at either end on Apr 23. I have just had to add the 50th frame.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

gjwestfall said:


> I have one similar based on his design.


This is great!
Can you show/discuss your design of the under-side (presuming the entrances are there)?


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

gjwestfall said:


> I have one similar based on his design. I live in Alabama and built it for the heat. I used a frame construction rather than 2x6s. I put 2 nucs, one at either end on Apr 23. I have just had to add the 50th frame.


We'd love to see some photos of bees in your hive!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> Well, the idea is that a slatted rack would create more surface area between the hive boxes, so that the bees move in between boxes in that space. I'm not sure that's needed, as a standard bottom might work with the side removed. I do think creating the connection in the bottom board is better than drilling holes in the sides of the boxes.


Good point - yes.
I'd hate drilling through the boxes too, if I can help it.

Hmm...
May be bottom board can be slightly up-engineered.

On the other hand, if the focus is on small colonies *limited *to a single box - this is a non-issue to worry about. Maybe this is where I would keep it (was my original intent anyway).


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Good point - yes.
> I'd hate drilling through the boxes too, if I can help it.
> 
> Hmm...
> ...


Of course, it definitely depends on what you will be using it for. If for overwintering small hives, then single box is a no-brainer and super simple to implement.

To me, this is a great way to have a long hive without building/buying a bunch of new equipment. Take your old lang equipment and turn it into a horizontal format pretty quick and easy. I like the side by side idea, I think there's merit to it, but really, to connect the boxes, a bottom board is pretty simple to do, just have it with a removable side.

I don't actually think you will need a slatted rack, a standard bottom board with a 1/2" gap will probably work just fine. But, if you think that gap is not enough, then it would be easy to add ore space with a slatted rack.

You probably wouldn't need this for overwintering, but for honey storage in the season, you might want to expand beyond a single box. With this setup, you just have another bottom board and set a box right beside your first one.


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## gjwestfall (May 12, 2021)

GregB said:


> I got really excited when accidentally found this design - YouTube suggested it to me.
> Maybe I will contact the designer and go and see the real thing - this is in Wisconsin, so..
> 
> *Parkinson Hive *
> ...





GregB said:


> This is great!
> Can you show/discuss your design of the under-side (presuming the entrances are there)?


Here is the video: 



. My hive is based on his design. I used a frame instead of 2x12s (I didn't have any laying around). The hive entrances are just drilled holes level with the floor of the hive. There are 6 entrance holes and I had a 5-frame nuc installed at either end. They seem happy, but there are a lot of bees now. I think I will build some mre but with more vents at the top and bigger entrances. Here is another picture, they are not swarming, just hanging outside






:


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Just playing around with parts today to see how things will lay out, and it's surprisingly easily to cobble one of these stands together.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

@gjwestfall shared these photos on the Facebook group of his hive with bees:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> Just playing around with parts today to see how things will lay out, and it's surprisingly easily to cobble one of these stands together.


Heck, pallets!
Sure; these are all over to be had for nothing.
A bit heavy; but really easy to cut down to a spec and use right ahead. One can even come up with a list of few standard steps of a pallet-to-stand conversion... Hint, hint.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Heck, pallets!
> Sure; these are all over to be had for nothing.
> A bit heavy; but really easy to cut down to a spec and use right ahead.


yep, exactly. And when you strip them down to just the components you need, they aren't that heavy, really.

But for prototyping, and seeing how things will go together, getting dimensions, angles, etc. they are perfect for that.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> yep, exactly. And when you strip them down to just the components you need, they aren't that heavy, really.


In fact, certain amount of heft is required for stability anyway.
Overly light stands are not good either (tipping over problem).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

One can clearly see how the orientation of the frames works (in a good way). Honey above/brood down.
Very good for vertical bee movements during the cold season (up,up,up). All within a single frame span.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> In fact, certain amount of heft is required for stability anyway.
> Overly light stands are not good either (tipping over problem).


yeah, I was playing with the stability with this, and you can go pretty steep with this thing and it's remarkably stable due to the lean (it "wants" to fall that way). I was very surprised by the amount of force required to make slide or fall, even with nothing holding it rigid.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> yeah, I was playing with the stability with this, and you can go pretty steep with this thing and it's remarkably stable due to the lean (it "wants" to fall that way). I was very surprised by the amount of force required to make slide or fall, even with nothing holding it rigid.


Pretty sure, velacreations, while I am nothing but the talks and drawings, you'd actually get something working done.
Typical with me. 
I guess I have my own excuses though. 
I am not even done planting the veggies yet!


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

I do a lot of drawings, too, but on paper. But it helps me to physically place things together at points in the process to get a better model in my mind.

It's a cool looking hive, even in pallet mode. And pulling those frames out is real nice. I really like the possibility of being able to use multiple size boxes (5 frame, 10 frame, 8 frame, 3 frame) all within the same hive.

It really reminds me of the AZ hive style, but without the specialized frames and houses and screens and rails and such.

So, I'm hoping this might work!


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

The key to my interpretation of this hive concept will be to get the bees to travel between boxes via a common bottom board.

That will be the first test. I'll likely use 2 nuc boxes side by side and see if the bees are able to function. This will be a very rough and quick version just to test the idea to see if viable or no.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> It really reminds me of the AZ hive style, but without the specialized frames and houses and screens and rails and such.


Exactly.
The AZ are way over-engineered - take a whole house for Pete's sake.  Just to keep bees.
Simplicity is all the rage!


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Exactly.
> The AZ are way over-engineered - take a whole house for Pete's sake.  Just to keep bees.
> Simplicity is all the rage!


this is basically a stand and special bottom board, hard to get simpler than that. But that totally changes the whole thing into a much different hive.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

The more I think abut this design, the more I love it. I use a lot of 5 frame nuc boxes in my operation, and I love them, because they are lightweight and easy to move things around. But what I don't like about them is when a hive gets going, I start stacking, and before you know it, their stack is over my head.

With this hive design, you can use the same lightweight boxes and they are all the same height! And if you set it up right, very little lifting is needed, and the most you ever have to lift is a 5 frame box. Would be great for honey harvest or splits or anything else where you are moving more than a few frames at once.

My back loves this concept.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Made a little progress today with this stand. I cut another pallet to make a bottom support. I'm going to add an angle support below this bottom and also legs on the back.

This is a rough proof of concept, but it's pretty easy to put together.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Ok, I finished up this stand today. I have it set at the maximum vertical space from a deep frame.

Now, all I need to do is make some bottom boards and lids for this, and I have a couple of 5 frame nucs I am going to test with it.



















Pallets are 40 inches wide, which gives you enough space for 4 x 5frame boxes, 3 x 8 frames boxes, or 2 x 10 frame boxes.

You can also mix and match.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

velacreations said:


> Ok, I finished up this stand today. I have it set at the maximum vertical space from a deep frame.


And looks steeper than 45 degrees. Makes sense, only a square frame would max out at exactly 45.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> I have it set at the maximum vertical space from a deep frame.


How many degrees is that?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

William Bagwell said:


> And looks steeper than 45 degrees. Makes sense, only a square frame would max out at exactly 45.


I guess the working height is defining the best working angle.
If working height set for standing that is X degrees - more like 50-60 degrees.
But if the working height is set lower (say for maximum stability) that would be Y degrees (smaller tilt).


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> How many degrees is that?


I don't know, I didn't measure it. I just adjusted the tilt until a plumb line went through the bottom corner.

It's probably around 60 or 70 degrees.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

For me, the best working angle is right at the point where the box wants to fall forward, rather than stand on edge. That tends to happen around 70 degrees or so, then it falls forward. And that makes it very stable. Steeper than that, and it is not nearly as stable, as it could fall either way.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> Ok, I finished up this stand today. I have it set at the maximum vertical space from a deep frame.
> 
> Now, all I need to do is make some bottom boards and lids for this, and I have a couple of 5 frame nucs I am going to test with it.


I already see rows of these stands at your place. 
Kind of like potting stands in some nursery what not (for potted plants and stuff).
Just bee boxes instead of pots.
Very good ergo-setup.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

LoL, pretty sure I will be raiding all those scrap pallets laying by the road.
There is a place nearby - you can have as many pallets as you want. Tons.
This summer I very well may run out of equipment - fetching some dirt cheap Lang sets + the pallets sounds very good about now.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> LoL, pretty sure I will be raiding all those scrap pallets laying by the road.
> There is a place nearby - you can have as many pallets as you want. Tons.
> This summer I very well may run out of equipment - fetching some dirt cheap Lang sets + the pallets sounds very good about now.


Yes, pallets are everywhere. Never ending supply.

Another concept came to mind when building the pallet prototype. I think you could do metal pipe as rails, and have a bottom board "hang" on the rails at the correct angle, and "hang" multiple boxes and hives like that on one rail system.

If the initial tests pan out, I am going to explore some options for this stand, because I think you could figure something out that would be very simple and easy to build and could hold a lot of boxes.

The main thing to test at this point is if I can get a hive to recognize multiple boxes as a single space, with just a 1/2" by 18.5" space joining them. If not, then I will test a slatted rack. And if that doesn't pan out, it'll be back to the drawing board.

There's more potential to this design, as well. You could figure out the height to stack 2 rows vertically, and have the same tilt and joining system as the horizontal layout. It could be very flexible.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Another thing, if you plan on working these from a stool or a wagon, like Sam Comfort does, then you reduce the height of the stand and could use just one pallet per stand.

If you were doing that, you would want to arrange this in like a U layout, so you wouldn't even have to move your stool between hives.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> There's more potential to this design, as well. You could figure out the height to *stack 2 rows vertically*, and have the same tile and joining system as the horizontal layout. It could be very flexible.


Easy.
Need to add the pegs to the boxes (I thought of that - for running 2 med boxes vs. a single deep - so make them deep Dadant depth). But you can play with the various boxes too.
Those pegs are great for holding the boxes together (OR boxes to the bottom OR the lids to the boxes).

Back to my lovely peg hive (the idea stolen, of course).
CVH (Compact Vertical Hive) by GregV | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Yes, I love the peg design for interlocking layers.

But I am not talking about vertical in the old, upright plane, but vertical in the angled plane. Just another box on the stand, but this time laterally on the y axis, rather than x axis, as the plywood stand is.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

With pegs, you can go into the z access, but might need a strap if you go very far.

3 dimension expansion is very interesting.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> With pegs, you can go into the z access, but might need a strap if you go very far.
> 
> 3 dimension expansion is very interesting.


I was thinking no more than two medium boxes (at 45% incline).
OR a deep and a medium on the top (the medium used a utility box for insulation and feeding). So the top box would be light and peg-anchored to the heavy bottom box.
Anyhow, the peg interlocking give even more degrees of freedom.
Pretty cool and practical concepts.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

I'm thinking that a feeder similar to the bag one I made for the standing frame in a thin shim would fit this setup nicely.


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

Problems with that long hive:

Vent holes that are not entrances make safe spots for pests.
There was a picture with a big beard. I thought it was best to have a small beard. I reduce beards by adding space or entrance size.
For the refrigerator, how do you get it to stand up?


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

SeaCucumber said:


> Vent holes that are not entrances make safe spots for pests.


Those vents are screened.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Made some progress today on this hive.

I made 2 bottom boards for 5 frame boxes for the test. These bottom boards have 2 entrances, an upper and lower entrance, so that I may test each configuration. Entrances are 3/4" holes with a dial to close or vent.



















The side risers are not attached to the bottom board, so they may be removed to join boxes together. 











The risers are 1/2", so I'm hoping that will be enough for the bees to join the 2 boxes as a single cavity.










2 bottom boards together:




























Here you can see the gap:









I also played with a roof design:


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> How many degrees is that?


I measure the angle, today, and it was 65 degrees.


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

velacreations said:


> Those vents are screened.


 safe place for small hive beetle


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## Cariboospeed (Sep 12, 2018)

Interesting ideas, I have one horizontal that's a failed experiment, and need to replace with a more ergonomic design. Here, in the land of harsh winter, every little bit helps, and a built, insulated hive is a big help.
Any practicle ideas for feeding in this design?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Cariboospeed said:


> Any practicle ideas for feeding in this design?


Why, sure.
With the utility box/feeding shim (just an empty box) - use bags, jars, milk containers.
Feeding is trivial.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> Why, sure.
> With the utility box/feeding shim (just an empty box) - use bags, jars, milk containers.
> Feeding is trivial.
> View attachment 69850


Looks to me like a convoluted way to keep jars from sliding down and installing them. The center of gravity of the jar is to the right of the bottom edge so it will try to flip over unles the diameter is bigger than the height..


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> *Looks to me like a convoluted way to keep jars from sliding down and installing them*. The center of gravity of the jar is to the right of the bottom edge so it will try to flip over unles the diameter is bigger than the height..


Try this before? 

tie together a battery of jars (however many you need);
in fact, you can double-row or triple-row
insert into your target hive whatever it maybe, include the tilted designs (this feeding station will* self-brace *in the tilted hive).
If I use jars I don't use them one by one - I use them by a row.
This is a very efficient way to feed as you may have more or fewer feeding holes as needed (can feed from one jar OR from the entire station OR spread partial jars across the station).
So if anything, a lowly peanut butter jar is my favorite way to feed.
Nothing convoluted about as I see it (just takes a couple of tape wraps).


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> Try this before?
> 
> tie together a battery of jars (however many you need);
> in fact, you can double-row or triple-row
> ...


Somehow my jars leak water when the small hole is in the middle of the lid and the lid is under angle and not horizontal. Can you try with your jars?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> Somehow my jars leak water when the small hole is in the middle of the lid and the lid is under angle and not horizontal. Can you try with your jars?


For the angled usages you should have the holes made near the lid's edge (NOT(!) center).
This is to keep the vacuum maintained until the very end of the feeding.
So if the tilted hives are being used, the jar feeders should be made with the angled usage in mind.

I am making a row for jars, this row will have pre-determined *upper *end and *lower *end (when used tilted).
For horizontal usage this same jar-row can be used in any fashion.
Some leakage will be no matter what, just as long as it is manageable by the bees - it is fine.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

I used a bag feeder for my standing frames. It would work great in this application


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Update from the Parkinson's hive channel:

(187) The Biggest Mistake New Beekeepers Make: Picking The Wrong Hive - YouTube


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

jtgoral said:


> Somehow my jars leak water when the small hole is in the middle of the lid and the lid is under angle and not horizontal. Can you try with your jars?


As the lid is tipped the pressure is reduced at the co-sin of the angle.
try smaller hole, or have the jar be upright, IE tape them offset a bit.

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have a Dadant depth colony that I started tipping back. For now I screwed a couple of tabs on the projecting bottom board rails and screwed on a couple of aluminum flashing strips at the hive body/ bottom board join near the rear. That will prevent the hive body from sliding ahead on the bottom board. For a start only about 30 degree tilt but will bring it up close to tipping point. The frames were fully drawn at usual flat position. I dont expect I should have to worry about feeding. More likely I should remove at least three frames and place fillers. I want to see how they adapt to being tipped up for winter and returned to flat and supered for summer.

I am seeing signs that a full 10 frames 11 1/4" deep is too much space and does not motivate them moving nectar up to the supers. I have a couple other colonies that are presently going as 10 frame regular deeps under supers. It the tilting of a standard single 10 frame box for a diagonal winter traverse of the stores really is that much more efficient, I will gladly do away with the double deep configuration. If a standard single deep winters well in that configuration I will forget about the Dadant depth colonies. After a while the novelty wears off having to make special frames and splice foundation.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Frank
I was going to comment the hive needs be tipped in time for the stores to level at the tipped position and the nest be in the bottom corner.
As you are tipping now, I presume you have already surmised that same idea.

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Gray Goose said:


> Frank
> I was going to comment the hive needs be tipped in time for the stores to level at the tipped position and the nest be in the bottom corner.
> As you are tipping now, I presume you have already surmised that same idea.
> 
> GG


I think that would best take advantage of their natural houskeeping instincts. It might be interesting to just tip one on say Nov.1 and see what they did with it but I am not flush with bees right now.

The real test will be to see what a single deep tipped back 60 deg would do. A series of progressing pictures of the frames brood patterns and honey stores shape would be interesting but I am shy about going into the hives late in the season. Usually lots of propolis and brace comb adhesions; easy to knacker a queen.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> I am seeing signs that a full 10 frames 11 1/4" deep is too much space and does not motivate them moving nectar up to the supers.


I wonder why that is??? Sometimes beekeepers us a double BB or a triple and are able to super and get honey.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

ursa_minor said:


> I wonder why that is??? Sometimes beekeepers us a double BB or a triple and are able to super and get honey.


I dont know the answer to that. In a single standard deep they seem to quite quickly get the word out that honey goes up, not sideways. Once established a honey arch is self sustaining. If it grows above the excluder you can keep moving it away. Seems to be a different dynamic in effect in multi story hives. Could it be that much larger bottom frame triggers a different response. Does 10 frame vs 8 ( or even 6 in some areas) start something different in motion?

If someone wants to take a stab at an explanation of the difference, go for it. This is only my second summer on the extra deep frames in single broods.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> . Does 10 frame vs 8 ( or even 6 in some areas) start something different in motion?


I decreased my deep hives to only 8 frames, I did that at the beginning of July. The canola has just started to bloom so with my supers on now I guess I will see what happens.

ETA the hives now have two supers side by side rather than one above the other. Within one hour of me changing the configuration ( I started with both supers placed vertically above the brood area) I went back and the bees were pouring out of the top of both supers. Is this an indication they have moved up? we will see.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Sounds like a good indication; Wish I had a flow like canola would give but I like the flavor of mine better I think perhaps reducing the number of frames might help my game with the extra deep frames..


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> Could it be that much larger bottom frame triggers a different response. Does 10 frame vs 8 ( or even 6 in some areas) start something different in motion?


I already reported as we discussed this - it seems that an ample brood box works as a counter-balance to the bees going up the supers (which in my case is 12 to 20 large Ukrainian frames).
Though I did have cases where bees went up and loaded the supers, but I also see the general reluctance to go up when the "brood nest" just so comfortably large AND naturally ergonomic comb spans allow for more natural honey storage.
IMO bees do not really feel the pressure to jump over the clearance between the frame rows.

SO - it probably makes sense to keep the large frame brood-nest rather tight (6-8 frames) IF the super utilization is desired.
The 6-frame commercial beek does exactly that - *large full Dadant frame in small volume brood-nest (6 frames).*
6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator | Beesource Beekeeping Forums

Have no time to look for the exact posts, but....
Here is good point to review (scroll back or forth) - we had a very good and long talk on these very subjects already.
Layens, Lazutin and Double Deep Lang... oh my | Page 9 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

How does this look for tilt? I will have a peek in a couple of weeks to see if I can see any signs of reaction to the tilt compared to what I would expect from a level attitude.
Thinking I might see a note on their bulletin board, "New pre flight takeoff check list: Ensure full flaps and hard up elevator!"


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> How does this look for tilt? I will have a peek in a couple of weeks to see if I can see any signs of reaction to the tilt compared to what I would expect from a level attitude.
> Thinking I might see a note on their bulletin board, "New pre flight takeoff check list: Ensure full flaps and hard up elevator!"


looks good
should have the entrance stay clear of snow better as well

GG


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> Sounds like a good indication; Wish I had a flow like canola would give but I like the flavor of mine better I think perhaps reducing the number of frames might help my game with the extra deep frames..


I wish I had something other than canola but it is where I live and I can't change that. The canola is good but dealing with the granulation is not fun.

After reading this thread I went out and set up one hive differently just to test. Since they like to go horizontal I placed all of the honey super frames, which are half a Layens in depth, at the end of the brood nest in the deep hive and a super directly above the brood. I have found that the bees seem to draw out only to the bottom of a short frame first unless they are next to a fully drawn frame on both sides and the follower is keeping them condensed. So I am hoping they will draw these frames out without colouring outside the lines LOL. If they do it won't be a big deal as these are foundationless and I am doing crush and strain anyway. And if they prefer up, they can go into the super.

My theory is that if they draw out those short frames first and start filling them I will swap them up into the super. If they like horizontal in these big hives I guess I might have to work with that. I just really want to have my honey in the short frames and the brood in the deep.

I also removed the full deep frames that were only honey and nectar and am going to freeze them for later. Therefor each hive does have only 7 frames and fits directly under one super, not the 8 I previously stated.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I tipped the hive even more on July 24; now close to falling forward. I examined frames today (28 july) and the brood area is definitely moving down and forward. Already too much stores on ten of those 11 1/4" deep frames to winter a single colony I think I am going to have to move them into the Layens hive and standing on end. Better get at putting a bottom on the Layens hive and make some entrances.

I think that the resulting longer diagonal path from tipping even a regular single deep Lang hive would give good wintering results. To be practical though some kind of tipping base to make them stable and instantly able to tip back level for inspection. With Dadant or even deeper frames, inspection is more difficult in the tipped mode.

Interesting experiment but not likely practical: sure is a good visual to the wintering benefits of taller aspect frames for efficient wintering. There is a lot of wasted stores at the ends of langs that often doesnt get used even in the following season. Granulates and the bees sure are not interested in processing it once nectar is available. This may be more an issue for us here in the North.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Yesterday I moved two tipped ahead Langstroth colonies into the partitioned deep Layens hive. One was 10 frames of Dadant depth (11 14") and the other 10 frames of regular 9 1/4". These frames are now standing tall way on their sidebars which rest on rails placed in the bottom of the Layens hive. I am thinking that with the frames in this position that I probably dont need all ten frames to winter on. If this proves true it will be a much more efficient way of wintering a colony in cold country.

I put tape faced foam fillers along the sides to maintain bee space. When I transition to the standard Layens width frames those will hang on the frame rests instead of standing.

I discovered that two of my standard telescopic covers will fit nicely on the Layens split hive. That was good luck not good management!

Pictures later; raining today.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Frank, take pictures of the insides I would love to see how these are set up.

ETA, I must have misplaced my manners, I forgot to say Please.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I got some pics this morning.

Just to re cap; this hive is an attempt at a test drive platform that can use Langstroth frames turned tall way or 9 frames lengthwise in either half of the box. Frame rests are on ends of box and also on the removeable divider. Without the divider it would be a single 25 layens width frames up to 19 1/2" deep.
In the pictures here I used foam fillers to give proper bee space for 9 1/4 and 11 1/4" frames standing. There is a pair of 1 1/2" tall rails in the bottom so standing Lang frame rest on their side bars on these. These frames can winter tall way and go back into conventional Lang boxes in summer. Will have to see how the bees get on with frame orientation flip flopped on them.

The box dimension is such that 10 frame standard lang supers can be used up top. I will build a set of Layens style frames that will sit conventionally on the sides of the box. The foam fillers will come out when standard Layens width frames are used; Layens is a much simpler frame to construct and do foundationless crush and strain.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

Frank, I like the foam spacer setup... that's a quick way to shim up and maintain acceptable clearances. 

I am running several of Greg's style hybrid (I will give him credit because that's where I found the idea). Mine are 3 stacked/connected mediums with a 2 inch shim below to create air space. The entrances are now on the short side... two 1.5" round holes. I left the front follower board in place all season creating a foyer of sorts. Due to that, I think I only have 10 double mediums (ziptied together lengthwise hanging from #9 wire). I have a QE above the brood chamber and supers above that. They seemed reluctant to expand up into the supers early in the season. But, in late June they started moving. I harvested 4.5 supers between two hybrid hives a couple days ago, leaving each one at least one mostly full(not yet capped) super for the current flow. I have abundant wingstem and rudbeckia starting to bloom now. 

I do believe the slight reduction of the brood nest from the front follower helped sway them to expand vertically. I am also experimenting with my bait hives. I left the two swarms that moved into them in the 6 frame deep layens style boxes. I then placed a 6 frame lang deep on top. I put two back to back with a QE on top and place lang supers on top. 2 swarms jointly filling supers. So far, it seems to be working. I will likely just remove the honey late season and place it in 6 frame boxes stacked above each of the swarm boxes. That will give each hive 6 layens, 6 deep and 5/6 medium frames for winter. I'll leave them backed together and probably wrap them so they can share heat. 

Again, I have found that overwinter in my area, bees tend to move up... period. They don't move side to side at all. I've had several years where they moved up and I had to supplement dry sugar in winter, despite the outside frames being full of stores. So the 6 frame narrow/tall configuration should work well.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

bjorn said:


> ...
> Again, I have found that overwinter in my area, bees tend to move up... period. They don't move side to side at all. I've had several years where they moved up and I had to supplement dry sugar in winter, despite the outside frames being full of stores. So the 6 frame narrow/tall configuration should work well.


I noticed that, too. They do not move side to side across frames. I am not far away from you and I noticed that they move side to side along the frames specially if the hive has good top insulation so that the winter cluster is not very tight.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

I have been using 2 inch white poly foam on top. Are you using more than that on top? Are you refering to your 6x6 hives? You also surround multiple stacks with a common insulated enclosure, correct?


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

bjorn said:


> I have been using 2 inch white poly foam on top. Are you using more than that on top? Are you refering to your 6x6 hives? You also surround multiple stacks with a common insulated enclosure, correct?


2 layers of 2in XPS on top (R20) + dome (R6) gives R26 roof and R6 sides on wooden 6FR/6FR. On poly BeeMax I add 2x 2in XPS on roof only with the same R-value results as for wooden boxes.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> These frames can winter tall way and go back into conventional Lang boxes in summer. Will have to see how the bees get on with frame orientation flip flopped on them.


I have turned the frames 90 degrees the long way but I have not flipped them back, so their response to constant change in orientation will be interesting.

I like your set up.
Where I am, I also found that the bees on the deep frames did not move to the outer frames. I wintered on 9 frames and had the last 3 untouched although they were up at the top feeding on the MC. Would they have moved over without the MC sugar I do not know, but with temps in March closing in on -30C I doubt they would have crossed that great divide.

I also noticed that no matter the hive type, I had one Lang, they set up on the southern most (sunny) side, so when I set up my winter configuration I move them all the way to that side or make sure the long side of the hive front faces south/southwest.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The side with the entrances is south facing. I will be reducing that entrance selectively either to the outside end or the other way. Left large (1 x 8" ) for options. I have another set of Lang frames 13" tall that fit that box without the fillers. Unless I am indeed switching back and forth I probably would cut the ears off them to have a more uniform fit between them and supers if I go that route. Interesting to hear about the success with supers. I too was apprehensive about them putting stores above with all that room below.

Dont know what I will put on top for insulation but there will be plenty of it. Since I already have medium boxes with screens attached it would be easy to throw them on top and fill with planer shavings: good moisture wicking with little heat loss. I have cleanouts in bottom rear of each half of the hive that can be closed or screened.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

A bit more experience now with the *standing tall frames* brings the conclusion that tall standing frames are not easy for inspections. It is hard to keep them from falling one way or the other and rubbing against sides and other frames. It gives me angst about rolling the queen. Hanging frames can be slid along the frame rests and gravity keeps them straight up and down . 

The standard deep Lang and Dadant depth frames that were drawn in regular aspect are now showing transition of placement of stores and brood when switched to standing tall way in the Layens style hive. I dont know whether I will put them back into regular orientation in Lang boxes come spring. Removing or lowering a 19" depth of frame down into a bee filled space does not give me tranquility.

Using the #9 wire across the sidebar method could be easily adapted to make the frames hang without altering them permanently and would still allow them to be used Langstroth fashion. Early yet in the experiment but there could be a *For Sale* sign next summer on the deep Layens hive.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

crofter said:


> A bit more experience now with the *standing tall frames* brings the conclusion that tall standing frames are not easy for inspections. It is hard to keep them from falling one way or the other and rubbing against sides and other frames. It gives me angst about rolling the queen. Hanging frames can be slid along the frame rests and gravity keeps them straight up and down .
> 
> The standard deep Lang and Dadant depth frames that were drawn in regular aspect are now showing transition of placement of stores and brood when switched to standing tall way in the Layens style hive. I dont know whether I will put them back into regular orientation in Lang boxes come spring. Removing or lowering a 19" depth of frame down into a bee filled space does not give me tranquility.
> 
> Using the #9 wire across the sidebar method could be easily adapted to make the frames hang without altering them permanently and would still allow them to be used Langstroth fashion. Early yet in the experiment but there could be a *For Sale* sign next summer on the deep Layens hive.


*Standard Layens frames* are hanging as I understand. There is nothing wrong with a Layens Hive, there are millions of the in use in Europe.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

jtgoral said:


> *Standard Layens frames* are hanging as I understand. There is nothing wrong with a Layens Hive, there are millions of the in use in Europe.


I agree with that; not sure about going with all that depth that permits Lang frames on end. There is benefit of being able to use drawn frames from Lang hives to populate the Layens hives. Have yet to find out whether that extra depth of frame discourages the bees from putting honey up into supers above.
The expanse of stores from top to bottom on those tall frames is impressive; the benefits for wintering seem quite believable!

I still have the option of running the lang frames conventionally in that box so it really will not be for sale.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> Have yet to find out whether that extra depth of frame discourages the bees from putting honey up into supers above.


Up to a point the deep frame does discourage.

But it simply takes 1)stronger colony to push up and/or 2)keeping the broodnest down to 8-10 frames and/or 3)some bees are more prone to go up vs. some others (genetics factor)


Here is my 20-frame rig - they filled and capped the super - no problem.
Already working on the second super-reload as we speak.
I am sure the main body is packed too.

A very strong colony to be sure - I combined two side-by-sides to make this honey hive.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> Have yet to find out whether that extra depth of frame discourages the bees from putting honey up into supers above.


Me as well, and yet a double brood box lang. set up is two deeps at 9 5/8th inches each so a total of 19 1/4 inches, and people who use this method seem to have no problem filling multiple honey supers above. So, IMO, going up very high above the broodinest is not generally a problem. I believe, in my short two year experience , that keeping the brood nest to 8 frames would accomplish this better than leaving them at 10 or more frames unless, like I have done in the past, hang a QE vertically and they fill the deep frames very nicely just like a long lang.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

ursa_minor said:


> Me as well, and yet a double brood box lang. set up is two deeps at 9 5/8th inches each so a total of 19 1/4 inches, and people who use this method seem to have no problem filling multiple honey supers above. So, IMO, going up very high above the broodinest is not generally a problem. I believe, in my short two year experience , that keeping the brood nest to 8 frames would accomplish this better than leaving them at 10 or more frames unless, like I have done in the past, hang a QE vertically and they fill the deep frames very nicely just like a long lang.


I cant argue with your math; just a niggling feeling. There is 11 standard deep frames in the left end and 11 of the Dadant 11 1/4" in the right. Without the foamboard filler the full width Layens style frames would be another 1 3/4" wider Quite a volume of combs.

I think with the hive divider removed there is room for 25 deep Layens frames. That has to produce some honey! Surely I can contrive a way to take some of it for myself!


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> I cant argue with your math; just a niggling feeling.


And I can't argue with a seasoned beekeepers "niggling" feeling, as IMO they are usually right  

I had some issues getting my bees to go up, but all three were the product of splits, I did not condense the nest until July, I used a QE when I started the process and in total they had 12 frames in the brood area. I did not condense them down untill I started to worry, which, in retrospect, was already too late. I believe another poster on BS bjorn???? manages to super his Layens.

I do not need to have Lang. compatible frames, I don't sell and I don't have any used equipment so making sure a lang fits is not something I need to be concerned about. I am going to cut all my deep lang frames next year down to the Layens or Ukrainian depth so they all hang the same depth. I found that they were building on the bottom of the Layens frames that hung right next to the deep langs. when I wanted them to build in the upper supers!!!!! They only seemed to select the frames that were next to the extra long ones, all other frames had no bottom comb building.

I like my small super frames and I like to be able to keep the brood frames separate from the honey frames, simply because of my Apivar treatments. That said, I did get them to move up when I hung a deep brood frame in the middle of the super, extending down into the main deep hive. Once they were up I moved the frame back down fully into the brood area.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

jtgoral said:


> I noticed that, too. They do not move side to side across frames. I am not far away from you and I noticed that they move side to side along the frames specially if the hive has good top insulation so that the winter cluster is not very tight.


jt , usra,
in the long hives I have (2 deep lang frames) X 30
the bees do move sideways, both hives all 3 of the years I have had them, moved laterally in winter.
2 things in the order of effect IMO 
-well insulated, 2x4 walls with R13 and sheathed on both sides, 3 inch foam over 1 inch of cedar lid.
-entrance is not centered, it is at the frame 3-4-5 area in a 30 frame box, so if they have any inbuild tendency to move away from the entrance , may also contribute to the lateral movement.

At my place IMO a layens hive made the same way would operate the same.
only real difference is the seam between the frames that the full layens would not have, a 1 inch hole bored thru the comb would mitigate this as a downfall .

GG


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> And I can't argue with a seasoned beekeepers "niggling" feeling, as IMO they are usually right
> 
> I had some issues getting my bees to go up, but all three were the product of splits, I did not condense the nest until July, I used a QE when I started the process and in total they had 12 frames in the brood area. I did not condense them down untill I started to worry, which, in retrospect, was already too late. I believe another poster on BS bjorn???? manages to super his Layens.
> 
> ...


My dad was supering horizontal hives 50 years ago back in Poland in the Warsaw Hive like that:



__ https://www.pinterest.com/pin/771593348658667072/


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

jtgoral said:


> My dad was supering horizontal hives 50 years ago back in Poland in the Warsaw Hive like that:


That hive looks something like what I am using now. Very short super frames but the long deep in the bottom. A difference is I made my super frames the same width as the bottom brood ones for ease of building.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

jtgoral said:


> My dad was supering horizontal hives 50 years ago back in Poland in the Warsaw Hive like that:


Well there is very little functional difference in those dimensions compared to what I have. It seems my worry may be "Much ado about nothing"!


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I can't read prints very well, how many frames in this long hive


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> I can't read prints very well, how many frames in this long hive


If you are asking about my picture it had originally 15 deep frames and, I think, 12 honey frames in the super. the brood frame is ~ Dadant-Blatt rotated 90 degrees to make it toll-narrow. Today you can buy Warsaw Widened Hive (Ul Warszawski Poszerzany) in configurations 15+ frames (like 18, 20,...). Ul Warszawski was designed by Kazimierz Lewicki (Levitsky as some translated from cyrilic alphabet), a Polish beekeeper, at the end of 19th century.
A Polish company Lyson makes them, too: Ul Warszawski drewniany - Łysoń - sprzęt i akcesoria pszczelarskie


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Thanks to* jtgoral* for posting that diagram. I was interested to know a little more about that hive, so used Google's 'translate' function: Google Translate and inserted Pszczoły - Życie w Rytmie Natury for translation. This returned a pretty good effort at translating the Polish text into English - not perfect sure, but good enough for a general understanding. The 6th article from the top is entitled: "Choosing the Hive and Its Construction".

Included within that article are three diagrams, one of which jtgoral has already posted - but these are >600 KB jpegs, which can be saved and then viewed in a graphics viewer (I use Irfanview) on a desktop, when the amount of detail becomes most impressive.

I had difficulty at first understanding what the author meant by 'extended' and had assumed that this was simply a couple more frames - but that didn't fit with the 60mm difference he was referring to. By searching for 'Warszawski' however (as jtgoral has kindly referenced above) it became clear that this 60mm difference refers to the frame length itself: 300mm as opposed to 240mm, (12" vs. 10") x 435mm.

There's only one remaining feature of this hive which I can't quite get my head around, and that is the brood chamber frame layout. From the diagrams the brood chamber has 15 deep frames, and appears to have two movable 'follower' or loose division boards, one at each end. But - offset from the centre of the frame array there appears to be a* fixed* (?) partition board which effectively divides the array into two quite separate cavities, with nine and six frames respectively. 
The hive entrance itself is offset, allowing direct access only to the nine frame cavity. Access to the remaining six frames appears to be only over the top of that fixed (if indeed it is 'fixed') partition board - unless of course there's some detail which I've completely overlooked - or misunderstood. 

If jtgoral or anyone else who's conversant with this hive could throw some light on this apparent puzzle, it would be most appreciated.
'best,
LJ


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

little_john said:


> ....
> I had difficulty at first understanding what the author meant by 'extended' and had assumed that this was simply a couple more frames - but that didn't fit with the 60mm difference he was referring to. By searching for 'Warszawski' however (as jtgoral has kindly referenced above) it became clear that this 60mm difference refers to the frame length itself: 300mm as opposed to 240mm, (12" vs. 10") x 435mm.


240mm - Ul Warszawski Zwykly (Warsaw Common Hive). Zwykly == Common. Close to Deep Langstroth frame rotated 90 deg.
300mm - Ul Warszawski Poszerzany (Warsaw Widened Hive). Poszerzany == Widened. Jumbo frame (or Dadant-Blatt) rotated 90 deg.

*Ul* is a Polish name for a *hive*. It must be pretty old because all Slavic languages use it.


little_john said:


> There's only one remaining feature of this hive which I can't quite get my head around, and that is the brood chamber frame layout. From the diagrams the brood chamber has 15 deep frames, and appears to have two movable 'follower' or loose division boards, one at each end. But - offset from the centre of the frame array there appears to be a* fixed* (?) partition board which effectively divides the array into two quite separate cavities, with nine and six frames respectively.
> The hive entrance itself is offset, allowing direct access only to the nine frame cavity. Access to the remaining six frames appears to be only over the top of that fixed (if indeed it is 'fixed') partition board - unless of course there's some detail which I've completely overlooked - or misunderstood.
> 
> If jtgoral or anyone else who's conversant with this hive could throw some light on this apparent puzzle, it would be most appreciated.
> ...


My understanding is that additional and optional divider in the center is if one cares and wants to separate the 9 FR broodnest from the honey space in the horizontal part.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Bit of an update:

I had a spare half-hour free this afternoon, and so poked around the Web using 'Warszawski' as a search term. There are numerous YouTube videos where guys are using this hive in the 'deck-chair' (single box) configuration - in which mode it appears to be almost indistinguishable from a Ukrainian Hive.

The apparent solution to the puzzle of the fixed 'divider' is that it is most likely a wooden-bound QX, as I came across the website of a firm which specialises in QX's precisely for this style of beehive: Segments of excluder - Manufacturer of metal assortment for hives 

So - I reckon that puzzle is now solved. 
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Bit of an update:
> 
> I had a spare half-hour free this afternoon, and so poked around the Web using 'Warszawski' as a search term. There are numerous YouTube videos where guys are using this hive in the 'deck-chair' (single box) configuration - in which mode it appears to be almost indistinguishable from a Ukrainian Hive.
> 
> ...


Polish equipment vendors are the most versatile at this time IMO.
The North America is really missing out.
Almost need to sign up with the Poles to be a local agent, what not (me thinking).


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

It appears then that it may be configured to have honey supers either above the brood frames or to the rear (away from the entrance). For above, standard Lang 10 frame excluders would work as is, for either 8 or 10 frame standard Lang supers. Would not be a big detail to modify a standard excluder to divide the box the long way for honey to the rear on vertical frames.


GregB said:


> Polish equipment vendors are the most versatile at this time IMO.
> The North America is really missing out.
> Almost need to sign up with the Poles to be a local agent, what not (me thinking).


I wonder if interest will expand beyond us (we?) _gadgeteers! _


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Just watch to see how many types of hives he uses:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Well, here is a slanted hive design - from Practical Beekeeping, #7, 1926, Russia.
 Looks familiar.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Similar ...










Karel de Kesel, Beehive, patented 1896.
Picture from: Clement, 'L'Apiculture Moderne', 1907:
LJ


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

What is their reasoning for the heavy tilt?


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Tigger19687 said:


> What is their reasoning for the heavy tilt?


More food on the way up in winter?


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

jtgoral said:


> More food on the way up in winter?


How would it be More food ? 
Unless you put all the bees in the bottom corner and they go diagonal?


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Tigger19687 said:


> How would it be More food ?
> Unless you put all the bees in the bottom corner and they go diagonal?


I think this was the idea. My bees are now at the bottom of the lower box and the upper is all capped food. If diagonal was vertical they would have more food on the way up in a wooden cold box. I have insulated poly so I do not care It was 22F yesterday and the bees did not cluster yet.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Tigger19687 said:


> How would it be More food ?
> Unless you put all the bees in the bottom corner and they go diagonal?


I believe it works like a deep frame, in a lang box often the outer frames and edges are not consumed in the winter. Tipped up the bees form a cluster in the bottom and move up to the end of the frames consuming most of the honey.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Tigger19687 said:


> What is their reasoning for the heavy tilt?


I can't speak for the Russian Hive, but the Kesel Hive eliminates two problems which Langstroth-style Hives have. One being condensed moisture dripping down onto the bees from above - the other is top-bar lugs being propolised.

If you look carefully you'll see that the Kesel Hive does *not* have hanging frames - those are standing-frames which are supported at their lower two sides.

A clever idea - useful perhaps as a single-story Long Hive, but probably not much of a future otherwise. 
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Tigger19687 said:


> How would it be More food ?
> Unless you put all the bees in the bottom corner and* they go diagonal?*


That is exactly the main feature of the slanted hives - diagonal movements.
Low placed entrance pulls the bees down and so the wintering cluster starts at the lowest corner and travels diagonally upwards over the cold season.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

I can see that in the Kesel I ues about the super on the first pic is more to the front. 
Would think they miss Honey that way.

Well I'm gonna guess that it didn't work all that well since we don't see that here


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Tigger19687 said:


> I can see that in the Kesel I ues about the super on the first pic is more to the front.
> Would think they miss Honey that way.
> 
> *Well I'm gonna guess that it didn't work all that well since we don't see that here*


Well, in the past no one cared much for ergonomic keeping.
It was all about honey, honey, honey....

Time to regroup.
What is the priority again?


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

Keeping the bees alive through winter for me up here 🙂


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Well, here is a slanted hive design - from Practical Beekeeping, #7, 1926, Russia.
> Looks familiar.
> 
> View attachment 71771


That's very similar to a design I was working on this year. The tilting has a lot of advantages beyond just being very easy for the beekeeper. It allows you to expand the brood nest in ANY direction. Make it wider, taller, deeper. Whatever you need at the time. You can mix and match box sizes, too, so 5 frame box work with 10 frame boxes work with 3 frame boxes.

I've got a prototype of a slanted hive I'll populate in the spring. It uses standard Lang boxes on a slanted stand with a special bottom board.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> It allows you to expand the brood nest in ANY direction.


Exactly.
Flip the frames and you just moved the brood nest UP or DOWN - depending on the need.

I don't know if you caught the frame dimensions from that Russian mag - that is essentially a Land deep frame, but x1.5 longer (1.5 * 19"). This is made especially so to take the advantage of the slant to a bigger extent.
I myself would not bother with this mod (unnecessary complication) - but just a technical note.


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