# Preparing for Small Cell TF Hive (NOOB ALLERT)



## johngfoster (Nov 2, 2015)

I'm gearing up for starting a hive this spring for the first time. Planning to go treatment-free. Will be starting with a package of Carniolans. I picked up an "Ultimate Starter Kit" from Western Bee in Polson, MT (local to me). They don't offer many choices though with the kit. It comes with Plasticell foundation, and grooved top bars and bottom bars on the frames only. No wedged top bar frames. I would like to try to regress the bees as rapidly as possible to small cell as part of my IPM strategy, and am trying to decide which options to go with. Thought about ordering some small cell wax foundation, but that won't ship while it's cold. Also, trying to install wax foundation in frames without wedges would be a bit of a challenge. I'd probably have to wire the frames as well, which I have no experience doing.

Another option I've heard about is going with Mann Lake PF 100 (or 105, 106/116 for ten-pack) plastic frames with integrated wax-coated small cell foundation. My concern about this though is that I've heard that bees prefer wax foundation over plastic foundation, and I may have some trouble getting them to draw them out.

My thoughts are to only use foundation in the bottom box of the brood nest, and once they have drawn it out and expanded into it, to go foundationless for the second box, as by then I would expect most, if not all the worker bees to be regressed to small cell, and they would then draw out foundationless frames to small cell size.

So, should I try to hassle with a small cell wax foundation in these grooved-only frames, or should I try the Mann Lake PF100s? Or is there another option I'm not considering yet?


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

You have such a hill to climb.
Do you have a local mentor?
You can use the plastic foundation the frames are designed for. It comes in different cell sizes. I am told that if you get some extra wax, melt it & brush it on the plastic, it helps.
But the bee do prefer wax. I would not advise foundationless on deep frames.
Be prepared to feed feed feed until the frames get drawn out.
( Personally , I think Honey Bee Healthy & other Lemon Grass Oil concoctions invite hive robbing. Others think it /they are Gods gift to beekeepers. in feeding, you will hear of this. They are your bees, _you_ will have to decide).
Get or build a robbing screen from day #1
If at all possible, have 2 colonies. Almost, if you can not have two colonies, reconsider keeping bees. Or at least , perhaps a split to have a spare queen if you need one
To be treatment free, you have to be willing to let the bees die, if they can not live with out treatment.
Figure it out now. Are you willing to treat your bees to have a living colony, or will you be content with a "treatment free" dead out?
Where are you getting your bees? a commercial package? or some one who advertises TF? An established nuc?
Do you plan to re-queen to get better genetics?
Learn how to monitor your mites. I did my first sugar roll in year 3 (last month). Make informed decisions.
I hope I am not too doom & gloom here, you sound about like the way I started, but further north. Your season will probably be less forgiving than Alabama.
At least you found Beesource before you got bees.
What ever you decide, Good Luck. CE


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

I use nothing but plastic (both small cell and 5.4) or foundationless. They work well for me.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If they are large cell bees and you give them small cell wax foundation they will rework the cells to a bigger size. You will have to give them plastic. Wax coated of course. They will still rework some of the cells to a bigger size but at least you have the option to scrape those parts off and have them do it again. Later down the track, if getting them to repair comb you have scraped, place those centre broodnest, that is where they build the smallest cells.


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## Andy382 (May 7, 2015)

I'm recessing my hives this year to 4.9mm. The best advice/ info is get on Micheal Bush's website & read about it. Also Dee Lusby has an organic beekeepers group on yahoo. They will tell you all you need to know about it because that's what they all do. 
According to them bees will only recess .2-.3mm at a time on foundation. If your bees are 5.4mm they'll only recess to 5.1-5.2mm the 1st time even on 4.9mm foundation. Then once those bees are well established if you put 4.9mm foundation in they'll draw out 4.9mm comb. The only options you have to go strait from 5.4 to 4.9mm is to buy a nuc of 4.9 bees & the 4.9 foundation, buy honey super cell (drawn out plastic frames), or find someone with drawn out 4.9mm foundation that would be willing to sell it to you. 
As far as foundationless they say you should wait a year or 2 until the small cell is really input into the bees. If you do like you say the bees will try to draw out the 2nd deep whatever size they feel like at the time. Some drone, some 5.4, 5.2, 5.1. You need some drone but might be more than what you want. Also need to have good drawn out frames for them to go off of.
The best advice for success is try to find local small cell nucs. Good luck & I hope you have success with your bees


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## MartinW (Feb 28, 2015)

To deep dive small-cell start-up, check out Dee Lusby Organic Beekeeping Group here. There are a lot of her writing and philosophies on this site in point-of-view. Good luck!


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Andy382 said:


> bees will only recess .2-.3mm at a time on foundation. If your bees are 5.4mm they'll only recess to 5.1-5.2mm the 1st time even on 4.9mm foundation.


This is true unless you use mann lake plastic PF100s small cell frames, you can regress your bees in one step. It's the fastest and easiest way to regress large cell bees. Large cell bees will draw PF100s to 4.9 first time.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?321371-FOUNDATION-QUESTION&p=1379673#post1379673


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

tech.35058 said:


> You have such a hill to climb.


This says it all. Forget about the fancy theories. At one time or another, I've tried them all. The only way it might possibly work with commercial bees is if you requeen in about 6 weeks with queens of *known* tf genetics. Otherwise, save yourself LOTS of time and frustration--take the dollars you are about to spend and flush them down the toilet. It is totally unreasonable to expect commercial bees (ie treated bees) to suddenly, magically survive without treatments when they have been treated for GENERATIONS. Forget about cell size. FIRST keep them alive. Then you can worry about experimenting with the rest of the stuff. Beekeeping is not as easy as it looks or others make it sound.

JMO


Rusty


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

it's not as steep of a learning curve if you are able to locate someone in your general area that is already having success, especially if you can get bees and advice from them. i would also consider learning how to locate feral colonies early enough in the season to know that they have overwintered and attempt to trap swarms from them.


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

If you put your second deep on the hive, totally foundation less, be sure it is level side to side. I would recommend starter strips or something to at least get them started so they MIGHT build straight comb. You'll have to check them quite often to ensure the comb is straight and correct any crooked comb immediately or the whole box will be crooked or worse, cross framed. I put a swarm on FL frames last year and didn't check them until a couple of weeks later, too busy with other swarms, etc. When I did get to it they had gone across frames and made a big mess. I'm going to try to move that box off this Spring if they're up in the box over that deep. If not, I'll have to go to plan B to get them out. Bottom line, FL will work, you just have to watch the bees to be sure the comb is straight or fix it ASAP. Good luck this year.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

The first item of business is finding good or reasonable stock. You can start with a commercial package to get started if you are bringing in some tf or resistant queens to take over. Typical commercial stock is likely to fail.

Also making and overwintering nucs with those tf queens as backup should be part of your plan. There are too many things that can go wrong with only one hive. If you can't find TF queens, you can find queens from breeding programs that increase your chances. Hygienic or russian queens may be a decent compromise.

You could just let them go foundationless at first. In my experience they will make about 5.1 to 5.2. Then you can start introducing small cell foundation later in the year or the following year if you decide to go that route. BTW, nucleus colonies make really nice comb, foundationless and otherwise.

(and yes getting some ferals would be ideal)


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

squarepeg said:


> it's not as steep of a learning curve if you are able to locate someone in your general area that is already having success, especially if you can get bees and advice from them. i would also consider learning how to locate feral colonies early enough in the season to know that they have overwintered and attempt to trap swarms from them.


A++++ advice!

Rusty


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

And already the naysayers are telling you how difficult if not impossible it is... it's wonderful to have a treatment free forum...

>It comes with Plasticell foundation

First, throw it away. It is not small cell it has no advantage if you intend to regress to small cell.

> and grooved top bars and bottom bars on the frames only.

Get some "jumbo craft sticks" or cut some one by pine 1/8" thick or get some paint sticks from the hardware store...

> No wedged top bar frames. I would like to try to regress the bees as rapidly as possible to small cell as part of my IPM strategy

Another option I've heard about is going with Mann Lake PF 100 (or 105, 106/116 for ten-pack) plastic frames with integrated wax-coated small cell foundation. My concern about this though is that I've heard that bees prefer wax foundation over plastic foundation, and I may have some trouble getting them to draw them out.
>Another option I've heard about is going with Mann Lake PF 100 (or 105, 106/116 for ten-pack) plastic frames with integrated wax-coated small cell foundation. 

IPM is NOT treatment free. So if your intent is to "treat when you need to" that probably belongs on a different forum... But if you want to regress as quickly as possible, the PF100s or PF120s would be the way to do that.

>My concern about this though is that I've heard that bees prefer wax foundation over plastic foundation, and I may have some trouble getting them to draw them out.

Give them one box of only the PF100 or PF120s and when that's all started and mostly drawn out add whatever you like--foundationless, small cell wax etc. I've had no trouble getting PF120s drawn out and they draw them correctly (4.94mm--the size they are).

>My thoughts are to only use foundation in the bottom box of the brood nest, and once they have drawn it out and expanded into it, to go foundationless for the second box, as by then I would expect most, if not all the worker bees to be regressed to small cell, and they would then draw out foundationless frames to small cell size.

If you start with the PF100 series in the brood box and do foundationless after that it will work fine. Either put the first box of foundationless on the bottom and/or put a drawn comb from the first box in for a guide. Or even two drawn combs...

>So, should I try to hassle with a small cell wax foundation in these grooved-only frames, or should I try the Mann Lake PF100s? Or is there another option I'm not considering yet?

What I would do is make the grooved only into foundationless and use the PF100s in the first box.


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## johngfoster (Nov 2, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> And already the naysayers are telling you how difficult if not impossible it is... it's wonderful to have a treatment free forum...
> 
> <snip>
> 
> What I would do is make the grooved only into foundationless and use the PF100s in the first box.


THANK YOU!!! Finally someone with some encouraging advise. I'm well aware this is not going to be easy, and that I'm going to have to "keep an eye on them". I guess I didn't use "IPM" in the correct way. I intend to use a screened bottom board, small cell foundation, and MAYBE dust them with powdered sugar, if I get too freaked out and can't sit on my hands any longer and just HAVE to do something. Otherwise, I intend to "let them go". I'm thinking the requeening idea is a good one, and may see if I could get a new queen from Lauri Miller later this summer, as she is relatively close to me (roughly same latitude, just 2 states away). May even be worth a drive over there. Anyone have any experience with queens from her lines as to what their genetics are like? I like what she's written about them so far, but haven't heard of anyone else using her queens yet.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> And already the naysayers are telling you how difficult if not impossible it is... it's wonderful to have a treatment free forum...


However, new posts first appear on the front page of the forum and are not marked as to what forum they actually appear in, so a bunch of us automatically assume the post is from the main forum or Beekeeping 101. Personally I do try to not respond to Treatment-Free Forum posts and I apologize for having done so in this case. I simply missed that it was posted in the TF forum.

Again, my apologies.

Rusty


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

johngfoster said:


> THANK YOU!!! Finally someone with some encouraging advise.


Isn't that a little disparaging to all the other folks who tried to help?

My own post for example, came from my own several years experience of producing, running, and even selling, small cell bees. The post was deliberately brief because of the modern attention span, but did contain some useful advice.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> However, new posts first appear on the front page of the forum and are not marked as to what forum they actually appear in, so a bunch of us automatically assume the post is from the main forum or Beekeeping 101. Personally I do try to not respond to Treatment-Free Forum posts and I apologize for having done so in this case. I simply missed that it was posted in the TF forum.
> 
> Again, my apologies.
> 
> Rusty


Same here. 
Maybe Barry could put a big flashing notice " YOU ARE IN THE YADA_YADA FORUM"
But I am new enough to remember how awful it is to lose bees. With only one hive, any loss will be 100%
Then, not only do you have no bees, you have to explain to spouse the bees are gone, or there will be no honey harvest, your local friends look at you a little sideways, and here on Beesource, there will be plenty to jump on the new guy with both feet as he tries to figure out what happened and how to do better.

The old adage about "ask 3 beekeepers, get 4 different answers", all of which are correct for one scenario, and wrong for others applies.
Finding one bee keeper whom is successful, and doing everything exactly like they do is generally good advice *
At least you avoid the "too many cooks spoil the broth" scenario
John, good Luck with your bees.

*When I was a young teen, the farm next door was sold to city folk.
Apparently the real estate sales person told them "Farming is easy. just watch your neighbors, & do what they do"
My mother was burning trash, & accidentally set the woods on fire.
You got it, the neighbor went out & set his woods on fire too!
Argh! communication is a good thing. ... CE


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## johngfoster (Nov 2, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> Isn't that a little disparaging to all the other folks who tried to help?
> 
> My own post for example, came from my own several years experience of producing, running, and even selling, small cell bees. The post was deliberately brief because of the modern attention span, but did contain some useful advice.


Sorry if it came across rude or otherwise ungrateful. I do appreciate all the concern for my success. And for the desire to make my expectations realistic regarding what I'm getting into. I'm under no illusions that it's going to be easy. But I'm attempting to learn as much ahead of time in order to minimize the potential for failure. Thanks for all the responses so far.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

John,
My two backyard hives are my experimental hives. Our other hives are more conventional.

Anyway, I have those 2 hives in all mediums with the Mann Lake PF 126 small cell foundation. One hive is a Carni mutt 'survivor' queen I got from a local fellow who is working to develop a local strain of resistant bee. ( For whatever reason TF in Colorado seems to be a challenge) The other is Italian from California.

After two years I have found that neither hive is overly enthusiastic about drawing out the small cell stuff. When they do, it is beautiful comb, perfectly worked. And the little bees are wintering well. 

All in all, now that I know what to expect, it looks pretty good. Next step is to try and get some queens that will be hardy and hard working. We'll see how that goes. I want to see where the bees take me in my little backyard apiary.

For you, you have to learn to keep the bees alive and prosperous as well as figure out what your goal is in keeping them. Do you want honey, maybe you'll like raising queens, perhaps you will try to develop new genetics or some such. 

Good luck.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I'm trying to decide whether I was negative or not 

Whenever I hear of a newcomer (being a relative newcomer myself) starting bees, I have a list of things that need to happen to increase odds of success. A list exists if one treats or not. I guess the question in this case was just about small cell foundation, but its hard not to jump in if one of the elements of "the list" is missing.


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## johngfoster (Nov 2, 2015)

So my box of Mann Lake PF 100s (actually 10 frames are PF 106) arrived today (the shipping was almost as much as the frames!). Don't see much wax coating on them, although they are advertised as "wax coated". My plan is to use them in my bottom brood box when I install my package. I'll plan on feeding them 1:1 sugar syrup until they start finding a more natural food source. As they draw out the frames and fill the box, I plan to move frames up in a checkerboard style into the second brood box that will be foundationless (with starter strips of pain stirrer sticks or some other kind of starter strip in the top bar groove).

From all my reading, and what has already been mentioned here, I think I will have the best success if I can requeen the hive sometime this summer. I contacted Laurie Miller about a queen, and she doesn't have any left to ship, only for local pick-up. She is about an 8hr drive away from me one way, so driving over to pick up a queen would not be practical. I may yet be able to get a friend in the Seattle area pick one up for me this summer though on his way out here, so that option is not completely dead yet. However, do you guys have any other suggestions of anyone else close by to the Missoula, MT area that would have good survivor stock that I could get a queen from to requeen with? I'm thinking this should be a plan, as the likelihood of the package queen surviving the winter treatment-free, is slim to none. There is a local bee club, which I haven't had time to attend yet, but I'm not aware of anyone locally who is having any long-term success going treatment-free.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

johngfoster said:


> There is a local bee club, which I haven't had time to attend yet, but I'm not aware of anyone locally who is having any long-term success going treatment-free.


there may be someone at the bee club with knowledge of tf successes/failures, or it may turn out that you are blazing a new trail in your area.

this is where learning how to locate feral colonies that have successfully overwintered comes into play. 

firstly, finding survivor colonies existing in your local area indicates that your area can support bees sans interventions, 

and secondly it provides you with an opportunity to catch a swarm or do a cut out.

this is how the bees that i am working now had their beginning in becoming managed tf stock.


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## johngfoster (Nov 2, 2015)

The preparations for the upcoming start are continuing. I was able to build a stand for 2 beehives, and a portable stand to use while working the hives. Inspiration for these comes from Bee Vlog #36https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz0kUk-3qlE&index=4&list=LLgaFIffpm8-JVKxR-zvKedQ, and Bee Vlog #159https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yRHVVwbzHo&index=3&list=LLgaFIffpm8-JVKxR-zvKedQ. I could not find Western Red Cedar for the project, but was able to find a local supplier of Thermally Modified Wood (Pine) in the form of 2" x 8"s. Here are some pics:

Hive Stand:


















Portable Stand:


















I have been able to work things out where it would be practical for me to pick up a new queen from Lauri Miller this summer. My next question is at what time would be best to requeen the hive after hiving the package?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

If I were you, I'd stick with the basics.

If I were you, I'd stick with the basics.

If I were you, I'd stick with the basics.

What you are trying to achieve is something experienced folks, with extensive beekeeping knowledge might be able to pull off. Or not. Many have tried. 

Besides, my queens are probably too large for cells much smaller than 5.0. 

They are reared on some 5.4 rite cell foundation, some foundationless. They are large because of good nutrition, good health & good longevity. Workers are reasonably small. I have seen the queens walk by cells, drop an egg and nurse bees take the egg and deposit it in the cells, but it was because I had interrupted laying by opening up the hive, I am sure. Would they do this is cells were too small for the queen to lay? Anything is possible I suppose.

Also, if you are going to try to go treatment free _cold turkey without having beekeeping experience and not knowing the health and history behind your purchased bees_, you are heading down a road that is littered with casualties & has few survivors at the end. Adding a new queen is usually just a death sentence for her, unless you give her a reasonably healthy colony so she has a chance to become well established and her genetics to prevail.

There is a possibility your new colony will be a good one and requeening may be just a seamless shift in genetics. That would have to be your call at that point. Your chances of that are better with a package than a nuc in my opinion, unless you get your nuc from a known source. 

What if you are determined to stay totally treatment free but fairly early on, your colony eventually shows some mite loads or antibiotic dependence? Well then instead of a mated queen, a virgin queen or capped queen cell many times is the right 'medicine' for a less than perfect colony that needs a 're-boot' and make the progression towards a more self sufficient and hardy strain that will be better suited for your climate in Montana. 


Once you successfully overwinter, THEN your options become interesting. You actually know what you are working with at that point. Treatment free, whether it pertains to mites or meds is a great goal. But it takes beekeeping experience, good genetics and a good environment to have a chance for Reliable and long lasting success.

From the looks of your photos, your environment looks amazing.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Photo above off the internet:

The difference here is not so much the different types of frames, but the understanding of how the bees move onto them and work them, depending on the season and their location within the hive. Just a little bit of experience can make the difference between a predictable outcome and blind luck. (Or bad luck)


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## johngfoster (Nov 2, 2015)

Thanks for your reply, Laurie. Most replies here seem to be discouraging me from going treatment-free right off the bat. Is it then recommended that I first learn how to keep bees WITH treatments before trying what I think I want to ultimately do (go treatment free)? Many replies here seem to have the attitude of "it's too hard, don't try it". From all the reading I've done, the likelihood of getting a package queen to successfully survive treatment-free is almost nil, no matter what the race of bee. Almost everything I've read here seems to imply that the likelihood of successful treatment-free beekeeping is directly related to the genetics of the queen. How then do I have any hope of success at treatment-free beekeeping, if I don't get a queen that had good genetics?

I realize going treatment-free cold turkey, without any experience, has statistically a low likelihood of success. That's the whole point of this thread: to get advise and suggestions that will maximize the possibility of doing this successfully. A previous poster suggested that the likelihood of success with a commercial package was almost nil, and that I would need to probably requeen from good genetic survivor stock to improve my odds. Thus the question. 

If I give my package a chance to be successful, hoping the package queen is a good one, at what point do I decide she is not, and requeen in order to have any hope of the colony surviving the winter? I appreciate all the concern for my success in this thread, but I didn't expect all the negativity, especially in the treatment free forum. *Don't try it. It's too hard. Leave it to the experts*


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

johngfoster said:


> Thanks for your reply, Laurie. Most replies here seem to be discouraging me from going treatment-free right off the bat. Is it then recommended that I first learn how to keep bees WITH treatments before trying what I think I want to ultimately do (go treatment free)? Many replies here seem to have the attitude of "it's too hard, don't try it". From all the reading I've done, the likelihood of getting a package queen to successfully survive treatment-free is almost nil, no matter what the race of bee. Almost everything I've read here seems to imply that the likelihood of successful treatment-free beekeeping is directly related to the genetics of the queen. How then do I have any hope of success at treatment-free beekeeping, if I don't get a queen that had good genetics?
> 
> I realize going treatment-free cold turkey, without any experience, has statistically a low likelihood of success. That's the whole point of this thread: to get advise and suggestions that will maximize the possibility of doing this successfully. A previous poster suggested that the likelihood of success with a commercial package was almost nil, and that I would need to probably requeen from good genetic survivor stock to improve my odds. Thus the question.
> 
> If I give my package a chance to be successful, hoping the package queen is a good one, at what point do I decide she is not, and requeen in order to have any hope of the colony surviving the winter? I appreciate all the concern for my success in this thread, but I didn't expect all the negativity, especially in the treatment free forum. *Don't try it. It's too hard. Leave it to the experts*


Do what suits you, but don't be offended when a bunch of experienced posters warn you about their experience with trying go TF with their first hives. BEESOURCE is full of first time posters stating they wanted to go TF. I'm one of them. EVERYBODY wants to be TF. Why would anybody want to treat their bees if they didn't have to? So if you think it's just some great kernel of knowledge that you either posses or are going to find, it isn't. If there was a magic bullet we would all be TF. Bottom line, I'm not willing to suffer the hive deadouts trying to be TF. I did for a while, bought nothing by TF queens, VSH queens, etc. 

OAV is the magic bullet if your operation is small enough. Don't think it would be very feasible on a large number of hives. But I love going out in the spring and finding a large majority of my hives doing just fine.
I lost no hives this winter, that's zero, zip, Nada... and I'm excited about that, and I sincerely hope you do that as well.
Again, no offense, we're trying to spare you what we went thru. 
Good Luck! 
PS... I'm so glad it's SPRING! 70 and sunny today!


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Your wood work reminds me of Lauri. Everything she does is top of the line. I wish I had her skill set and patience. She is an awesome beekeeper.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

hang in there john, but understand that if there are no beekeepers in your general area having proven success with keeping bees off treatments from which you can obtain bees and emulate methodology you will be 'experimenting'.

and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. i say try it, it's not going to be that much harder, and you don't have to be an expert. if you are willing to live with some degree of unpredictability, if you like challenges, and have the tenacity to live with the prospect of some short term set backs, then go for it!

from what i can gather lauri is now several generations into her breeding program from which she is propagating hearty bees that can be kept with 'minimal' intervention. if you can't find any bees that are being kept completely off treatments hers would be a good choice to start with.

here on the forum we hear many reports of folks at the end of their first year losing their bees who haven't treated or even sampled for mites. it's not very often that we here reports from beginners who obtained 'commercially' bred bees coming with a history of being treated and after putting them into a treatment free regimen found that they did just fine.

i've already mentioned the possibility of catching or trapping feral bees. beyond that, incorporating mite testing (i'd recommend alcohol wash) as part of your management would make good sense. the problem with that is that some bees (like mine) can tolerate much higher infestation rates than what others report would be a death sentence to their colonies. the value of assessing mite loads is that it would give you a good metric for understanding why some colonies might be doing better than others, and allow for deciding which colonies you want to propagate from.

i think your chances for success are going to be better if you can get your apiary up to 8 - 10 hives, with a few nucs on the side for 'spares'. this would give you a good shot at ending up with enough survivor stock to work with and even market if you are so inclined.


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## Bee Tamer (Jan 21, 2016)

I am from Massachussets and started two years ago, also determined to be treatment free. I know I am still new, but I feel I have learned more about being treatment free by being treatment free. I lost 2 of 4 colonies my first winter/ year. I have 8 of 9 alive and looking populous this year, so far. There have definately been bumps and mistakes along the way. I would re queen your pkg sooner rather than later as you have a short season. I purchased 4 small cell pkgs last year, requeened 3 and let the 4th go as it Built up so nicely. I had a nuc set aside to bolster it if needed, but when the time came I lost the nerve and did not want to combine the healthy nuc with the mite/virus infested colony. I would requeen them in the first 6-8 weeks with local survivors, learn everything you can about beekeeping, mites etc. and you will give yourself time to decide what you choose for a strategy.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

johngfoster said:


> Most replies here seem to be discouraging me from going treatment-free right off the bat......... I appreciate all the concern for my success in this thread, but I didn't expect all the negativity, especially in the treatment free forum.


Seems like what you asked about was getting some packages and going treatment free with them. But the answer was not affirmative, and rightly so because most commercially sold packages have not been bred to be mite resistant and therefore likely to fail if not treated.

Do not be surprised you got this advice in the treatment free forum. Is not the purpose of this forum to support good practise and successful methods? It would be wrong if someone came along with an idea that will likely fail, but just to be supportive, everyone said yes, do it. 

The advice you have been given is for the most part, that if you wish to be treatment free, but must start with commercial packages, requeen with mite resistant genetics at the first opportunity. This is not negative advice, it is advice designed to give you the best odds at succeeding. 

The recent post from Squarepeg (one of the most successful TF beekeepers on the forum) was excellent advice.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

When you seek advice on a forum such as this you will get many perspectives; some that you'll like and others that you don't; pay special attention to the ones you don't like(unless the poster is rude) then ask yourself if that's because all you want to hear is confirmation. 

If you are really looking to get an overview of beekeeping, you are in a great place. Remember that many of us here have had bitter experience going TF and we have had to regroup and rethink so that we can get to a place that works for us. That experience can be expressed, maybe, in a way that seems negative to you. So be it.

Remember that old song; 'All lies in jest, til a man hears what he wants hear, he disregards the rest' S&G

So proceed however you'd like. The bees will teach you. Some of those lessons will be hard. Others will be rewarding. 

I would only ask one thing: Give a little consideration to the bees. Don't ask them to do what they cannot do. Set them up for success, not failure. 

Go for it.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

If nothing else, keeping bees for a year or three will open your eyes to how many people are keeping bees around you. It's probably a pretty common occurrence among new beekeepers to believe that there are "no bees or beekeepers here"... only to find one a half mile up the road this way. And a mile up the road at another yard... etc. Maybe you'll find someone keeping bees the way that you'd like to and you can try to copy them. It's going to be a tough row to hoe otherwise. I have a guy local who, so far as I can tell, loses a whole bunch of his roughly 400 hives every year and buys packages to repopulate. All that really means if raising queens in this area (for me) will largely trend towards being the same bees that he is keeping. Which if they're dying 50% of the time in the winter... I don't necessarily want.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

johngfoster said:


> Most replies here seem to be discouraging me from going treatment-free right off the bat. Is it then recommended that I first learn how to keep bees WITH treatments before trying what I think I want to ultimately do (go treatment free)? From all the reading I've done, the likelihood of getting a package queen to successfully survive treatment-free is almost nil, no matter what the race of bee. Almost everything I've read here seems to imply that the likelihood of successful treatment-free beekeeping is directly related to the genetics of the queen. How then do I have any hope of success at treatment-free beekeeping, if I don't get a queen that had good genetics? If I give my package a chance to be successful, hoping the package queen is a good one, at what point do I decide she is not, and requeen in order to have any hope of the colony surviving the winter?


Only you can decide that, she may be a great egg laying machine, but her offspring may not be able to "control" mites on their own.
Look at it this way,, Treatment Free right off the bat with previously treated bees WILL almost always have a nil percent chance of success. However, I am a huge proponent of not working backwards. If it is your ultimate goal is to raise treatment free bees, then learn how to raise treatment free bees, DO NOT work backwards, it will only slow down your goal. Thus, your problem with finding appropriate genes. As suggested, go to your local beekeepers association, surely there will be some members who do not treat their hives who can help you. If not, there are a few major/large apiaries who do not treat their bees and sale queens. If all else fails, PM me and I can help with the genetics. I have always wondered how my queens will do outside the state.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Always amazing all the negativity. Start with what you can get. If that is packages from California, then that's what you start with. If you want to be treatment free, the last thing you want to do is contaminate all the comb those bees build by treating. If you can get local bees, do that. If you can get local treatment free bees, do that. But if you can't, you start somewhere. Next year those bees may have survived. If not, you have clean drawn comb to start with. If you set some bait hives you may have caught some bees by then.

I realize that these people sincerely believe that if you treat you won't lose bees and if you don't treat you will. But if they were honest with themselves they would admit that it's simply not true. You may or may not lose your bees whether you do or don't treat. But there is no reason to go down the path that does not arrive where you want to be.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Newsflash.... Mann Lake also sells small cell wax foundation.


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## johngfoster (Nov 2, 2015)

JRG13 said:


> Newsflash.... Mann Lake also sells small cell wax foundation.


Thanks. I would expect this. However, the frames that came with my kit have grooved top bars, not wedged top bars, and I'm unfamiliar with how to install wax foundation in frames that are just grooved. I would guess it would have to be done as the frame is made, and I would suppose one would also have to then wire the frame to support the wax. And I would suppose one would have to wait until the weather warmed up enough where Mann Lake would feel confident shipping the frames without the risk of them fracturing in transit from the cold making the wax too brittle. But I may be wrong. I'm still a noob and have very little experience to draw from. If the PF100s don't work out though, I'll look into getting some wax foundation and trying to figure out a way to install it in my frames. I may have to cut it down to get it to work. Thanks.


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## EastTnJoe (Jan 20, 2016)

Michael Bush said:


> Always amazing all the negativity. Start with what you can get. If that is packages from California, then that's what you start with. If you want to be treatment free, the last thing you want to do is contaminate all the comb those bees build by treating. If you can get local bees, do that. If you can get local treatment free bees, do that. But if you can't, you start somewhere. Next year those bees may have survived. If not, you have clean drawn comb to start with. If you set some bait hives you may have caught some bees by then.
> 
> I realize that these people sincerely believe that if you treat you won't lose bees and if you don't treat you will. But if they were honest with themselves they would admit that it's simply not true. You may or may not lose your bees whether you do or don't treat. But there is no reason to go down the path that does not arrive where you want to be.


This is my favorite thing on the Internet today. I'm brand new at this and don't even have bees yet (come on April 11!) but this is the exact plan I have in mind. I've been burning up this forum (read lots, post little) and YouTube, plus other avenues of learning, and I'm going treatment free. I'll pay my money and take my chances, hopefully I can get all 4 hives through the first year treatment free, if I lose some over next winter then I can rebuild next Spring using whatever is left. My goal is treatment free so I'm not going to treat the first year, I'll just do everything to the best of my ability and hope the outcome is favorable.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Groove top is made for wax foundation, not just plastic. Just get wired foundation, or if you want, I'll post how I wire frames using just a car battery and some alligator clips..... I do buy wedge top now, they're just a little more versatile as you can choose to use the wedge or not. Foundation is installed after the frames are put together.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

EastTnJoe, if you choose this path, then make the effort to locate some queens from treatment free stock and put them to good use.


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## johngfoster (Nov 2, 2015)

From my reading of the history around the development of the larger cell honeycomb, one of reasons for a bigger bee was to be able to forage a larger radius from the hive and collect more honey. If the larger bees (standard commercial size) have a radius of about 2 miles, has anyone studied if bees raised on small cell have a smaller radius, and if so, how much smaller?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The intent as published by Baudoux was to increase the size of bees so they could carry larger loads of nectar. There are abundant records that some races of bees forage further and it is often linked to longer wing span. Larger bees grown in 5.4 cells don't actually have wings much larger than normal. There is a lot of variation in the bee genome with some races having longer tongues and larger/longer wings. Brother Adam wrote about Apis Mellifera Major Nova which he recorded as the largest bee he had worked with.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The small cell bees just like the big cell bees will
forage as far as they can to bring back some hive
resources. They don't want the hive to starve so will sacrifice
themselves to forage on.


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## tulsafarmer (Feb 28, 2016)

I have been taking my time in the regression of my bees. I put my bees on 5.1 foundation last spring. This year i'm putting them on the mann lake plastic PF100 frames. And i have some 4.9 foundation I plan on using next. then I plan on going foundation less.
There will be nucs sold with my older foundation.
It may be the long way-about but I figured they didn't get over-sized overnight.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> The intent as published by Baudoux was to increase the size of bees so they could carry larger loads of nectar. There are abundant records that some races of bees forage further and it is often linked to longer wing span. Larger bees grown in 5.4 cells don't actually have wings much larger than normal. There is a lot of variation in the bee genome with some races having longer tongues and larger/longer wings. Brother Adam wrote about Apis Mellifera Major Nova which he recorded as the largest bee he had worked with.


Perhaps local forage is the most important selection pressure when it comes to cell size. By not imposing one, perhaps there would be some optimization of cell size in a local area.


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## clong (Apr 6, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> Always amazing all the negativity. Start with what you can get. If that is packages from California, then that's what you start with. If you want to be treatment free, the last thing you want to do is contaminate all the comb those bees build by treating. If you can get local bees, do that. If you can get local treatment free bees, do that. But if you can't, you start somewhere. Next year those bees may have survived. If not, you have clean drawn comb to start with. If you set some bait hives you may have caught some bees by then.



This comes a little late, but farmer Joel Salatin says: "If a job is worth doing, it is worth doing poorly first."

Going treatment-free with beekeeping is being done right now. It must be possible. How about starting out doing the best you can at first, and improve every year.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>From my reading of the history around the development of the larger cell honeycomb, one of reasons for a bigger bee was to be able to forage a larger radius from the hive and collect more honey.

No. The intent was to have a bee with a longer tongue that could work red clover and a bigger capacity to carry more nectar. They do not fly further. They fly less far.

> If the larger bees (standard commercial size) have a radius of about 2 miles, has anyone studied if bees raised on small cell have a smaller radius, and if so, how much smaller?

Larger. More like 5 miles from the best I can put together. Dee says more like 7 miles, but she's in the desert. I would say most bees don't fly past 1 1/2 miles except when nothing much is blooming and they have a reason to.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Ah haa! Bigger bees mean bigger stingers.
And more poisons when they get you. I like the
smaller bees better.


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## johngfoster (Nov 2, 2015)

I managed to go to our local bee club meeting this week, which was essentially a few experienced beeks talking about their winter losses and how much Varroa devastated their hives, and all the treatments they used, and how Nosema is a problem around here. Probably the majority of attendees were new beekeepers or ones like myself that have never kept bees before, but are waiting for our packages to come. BTW, pickup date for the packages is April 29 here. The bees are coming from the Oroville area in CA--Carniolans. The will apparently already be treated for the spring, so "we don't have to worry about treating them until the fall". At least, that's what I'm told by the guy who sells the treatments (and beehives, and foundation). I was also told that U. Montana in Missoula did a study on small cell foundation, and apparently found it to "be a waste of time, as the bees will build what they want to build". Is this true? I have read here that the more north one is in latitude, the larger the "natural" cell size is, so is there some truth to this? Will they build out my PF100s to "whatever size they want"?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

lots of good questions john, none of which i have any answers for due to lack of experience with it.

what seems to be the case is that there are very many variables at play when it comes to beekeeping. i.e. location, weather, strain of bee, variability from one colony to the next even within a strain of bee, a myriad of equipment choices, availability or not, influence from nearby colonies, and the list goes on.

that's a big part of why you get so many different opinions and points of view here on the forum. that's why my suggestion is usually find someone nearby if you can to get bees from and advice about how to manage them.

in a strange way all of the unknowns have been fun for me. i've enjoyed the trial and error and pretty much have let the bees show me what i need to do and not do for them to be successful. an important turning point for me was when i determined myself to celebrate the mistakes and failures as gains in that they moved me along the learning curve.

i can see how beekeeping would not be a good fit for someone who is easily frustrated when expectations are not met. bees have a way of not always performing as expected or like someone on the internet said they would. in the end you just have to do it, see what happens, make reasonable adjustments, and repeat.


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## johngfoster (Nov 2, 2015)

Thanks, Squarepeg. I'm looking forward to this experience. Trying to maximize my chances of surviving the winter, but trying also to have realistic expectations as well. Folks around here seem to all be stuck on traditional treatments. Most at the meeting had not even heard of Oxalic Acid Vaporizer, which was presented as "the latest and greatest" treatment for bees that just "blasts" the mites off them. :lookout:

A co-worker of mine keeps 2 hives of bees (not TF, but with some "neglect"). I discussed with him the possibility of getting a split from him, but he lost one of his two hives this winter--empty hive with no bees, no carcasses, but still with lots of honey. He apparently had bees in this hive this fall though, so did it swarm? I would think not, as bees typically don't swarm in the fall/winter, and his first inspection this spring was the first day we had where it got above 50*F. So I think it would be too early for them to swarm yet. This hive was a Russian queen.

I did not present my aspirations for going TF, as I got the sense it would not be well received. However, I am looking forward to my journey. I expect there to be bumps in the road, maybe even a huge boulder or two blocking the way. But I think I will also try to capture a swarm, and I've put my name on a few bee removal lists as well, so who knows, maybe I'll get a cut-out of local survivor stock from my area to boot.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

:thumbsup:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

lots of good questions john, none of which i have any answers for due to lack of experience with it.
what seems to be the case is that there are very many variables at play when it comes to beekeeping. i.e. location, weather, strain of bee, variability 

A very good point of view about beekeeping! I like it.
This depends on what the bees want at certain time
of the year. In the Spring time they want the larger cells for making
the drones. A growing nuc hive will want more worker cells. When
you give them the pf100s they should follow the size of the cells to
draw them out. Sometimes the bees will build what they want to build.
This you have no control over them. Nevertheless, you are welcome to
experiment a bit to see what they will give you. And I don't think the latitude
at ones location has anything to do with the larger cell size. It has everything
to do with the need of the bees during certain season of the year as well as the
size of the colony at that time. Experiment a little to see what you will get. Make it
a fun one this season!


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

clong said:


> This comes a little late, but farmer Joel Salatin says: "If a job is worth doing, it is worth doing poorly first."
> 
> Going treatment-free with beekeeping is being done right now. It must be possible. How about starting out doing the best you can at first, and improve every year.


Amen, I love me some Joel Salatin, words of wisdom. Though they usually fall on the deaf ears of the naysayers! LOL


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

John,
I have found that the bees will draw the PF-100's perfectly. My backyard bees are noticeably smaller than our other 'normal' bees. 
However, they need to have a really strong nectar flow or a lot of 1/1 syrup to draw that foundation. I don't know why, but that has been my experience.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

johngfoster said:


> I managed to go to our local bee club meeting this week, which was essentially a few experienced beeks talking about their winter losses and how much Varroa devastated their hives, and all the treatments they used, and how Nosema is a problem around here.


Yes, but keep in mind, this is like going to a "foreign language club" meeting. If they are not interested in your experiment, then you are the local idiot, whom ( with your "disease ridden untreated bees, carrier of all sorts of plague") will be to blame for all their troubles. Too bad you did not start last year so they could blame last winters losses on you.
I agree, the bees will probably build what ever comb they want. they probably know better than I do, I might have tried measuring cell size once, but I don't worry about it. A lot of my hives are foundation-less any way.
If you can find some one local whom is TF, either by intention or neglect , you might try getting a comb of brood/eggs, & starting a nuc or two. leave them in their apiaries to mate, or bring them home to mate with your "store bought hives. preferably both. Maybe start some nucs from your bees, & let them mate with the other yards. 
All of this sounds great if you have lots of hives ( & time), but if you are like me, it is a struggle to get it all done. Another location ( your mama's house?) is useful for evaluating the results before you bring unknown results home to your main apiary.
Most TF gurus have some ideas I like, & some I am not so convinced about.
Get the basics, perfom your own experiments, "do your own work".
Share the results with us, if you choose. ( Thank you!)
Good Luck with your bees ... CE


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## e3eridani (Aug 1, 2015)

I also read that cell size depends on latitude. The table below shows cell size naturally built by swarms. Data was taken in 1956 by russian researcher. It can be seen that north bees are bigger than south bees. And it is also known that russian dark bee is bigger than Italian.
First column shows zones of Russia and second one cell size of bees.
Zones from up to down: Siberia, central European part, far east, ural, south part. 
But I think it doesn't mean that, for example, dark bees cannot be regressed. The only question what they will do if they are foundationless after regression.


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

johngfoster said:


> that U. Montana in Missoula did a study on small cell foundation, and apparently found it to "be a waste of time, as the bees will build what they want to build". Is this true?
> 
> I have read here that the more north one is in latitude, the larger the "natural" cell size is, so is there some truth to this? Will they build out my PF100s to "whatever size they want"?


There is a map of the world I saw several years ago that Dee Lusby may have prepared. I have been looking for it for the past year to no avail. It contents that the further north and the higher the altitude the larger the natural, worker, brood cell. This is stretching an old goat's memory but the Southeast USA is 4.7 to 4.9mm natural cell. SW USA is 4.8 to 5.0mm. Northern USA and southern Canada was 4.9 to 5.1 mm. If someone finds this map please send me a link. 

A local Newbee "inherited" a hive that no one had been to the bottom of for 6 years and asked me to do the first inspection. It was one deep and two shallows. There was drone comb scattered all over from top to bottom. They had reworked the foundation. The conventional wisdom is that drone comb is bad, a waste of resources, and will cause the hive's early demise due to mites. If you provide bees a space to raise drones they will not scatter the drone cells throughout the hive. You won't find it stuck between the top and bottom bars between the boxes. Give them a couple deep drone frames and they will build drone cells on drone frames and worker cells on the 4.9mm foundation brood frames. This is important to me as I drone cull for 6 weeks in March and April.

You chose small cell, treatment free for a reason that probably has to do with a core philosophy so give it a try this spring. 

Please note the the successful natural cell, treatment free beekeepers study a lot. I suggest you do likewise.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

It is true! The successful tf beekeepers not only study but also do
their own bee experiment to find out what works in their local area.
Sometimes they will rework the foundation or the queen just lay eggs
in the worker cells to make some really small drones that are useless.
What a waste of hive resources. I put drone comb in there so that they
will not make these dinky drones.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

From Friedrich Ruttners book "Naturgeschichte der Honigbienen" Page 168: bees get bigger from equator towards polar areas. In the text and the next pages table it is described how the same applies to altitude from sea level.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> I was also told that U. Montana in Missoula did a study on small cell foundation, and apparently found it to "be a waste of time, as the bees will build what they want to build". Is this true?

Well, if you put large cell bees (from 5.4mm foundation) on small cell wax foundation (4.9mm) they probably will build it 5.1mm or so. But if you put large cell bees on Mann Lake's PF120s (or PF100s) they will draw it what it is, which is 4.94mm. Also if you put those 5.1mm bees (from the first turnover of comb) on 4.9mm foundation they will probably draw it 4.9mm. Some people give up too soon. 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#whatisregression

> I have read here that the more north one is in latitude, the larger the "natural" cell size is, so is there some truth to this? 

https://beesource.com/point-of-view...ta-on-the-influence-of-cell-size/climate-map/

>Will they build out my PF100s to "whatever size they want"?

No. They will build them 4.94mm.


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## johngfoster (Nov 2, 2015)

What's special about Mann Lake PF100s/120s that the bees will draw them out the right size, whereas they won't with other small cell foundation?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Bees will chew down and re-work wax foundation. Plastic can't be chewed down.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What's special about Mann Lake PF100s/120s that the bees will draw them out the right size, whereas they won't with other small cell foundation?

Here is my experience with foundationless, wax, plastic and PF100s:

Foundationless. No hesitation. The size package bees build depends on the actual comb they came off of. That comb could have been Pierco which could be as small as 5.2mm or it could have been Mann Lakes "standard" frames (before they labeled them PF100s) which would be 4.94mm or they could be Rite cell or one of the other 5.4mm plastic foundations or they could be 5.4mm wax. When I took them off of 5.4mm wax they would build comb 5.1mm in the core of the brood nest. With some packages they built as small as 4.7mm on the first try. I assume those came from smaller comb that 5.4mm but I don't know what they were raised on.

4.9mm wax. Typically bees from 5.4mm wax foundation put on 4.9mm wax would draw it about 5.1mm. Packages might draw it correctly or not. Again, I assume it was because of what size comb they were raised on.

4.9mm Dadant plastic. No longer available. Had no cell wall to speak of. You would think that would free them to do what they want, but what they seem to want was no part of it. They would not draw it.

4.94mm PF100 series. It has a deep cell wall which they cannot easily ignore. It seems to appeal to them more than the "no cell wall" version of the plastic. But also, it's a different kind of plastic. The "no cell wall" 4.9mm plastic from Dadant was a very different kind of plastic. The bees draw it the size it is laid out. They hesitate less and avoid it less than the other plastic foundation on the market.

Honey Super Cell. Fully drawn 4.9mm plastic. The bees will balk at it. If you put them on nothing but HSC it costs them about two weeks to get them to accept it. But once they do it's permanent and they use it like any other comb.

PermaComb. Fully drawn 5.0mm plastic. Same as HSC but comes in mediums instead of deeps and has no spacers.

Wax dipped PermaComb. Fully drawn 5.0mm plastic, heated and dipped in beeswax to reduce the volume of the cell. Accepted like any drawn comb in the colony.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

johngfoster said:


> What's special about Mann Lake PF100s/120s that the bees will draw them out the right size, whereas they won't with other small cell foundation?


I dunno...but the sum total is frames that the bees take to quickly and draw nice 4.95 cells almost all the time.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Some different advice - this is what I'd do.

Get your package bees; put them in a 6 frame nuc (or a divided hive if you haven't got one) with alternate whatever plastic frames or wax comb and deepish starter strip. Keep the entrance small - about big enough to put your first finger right in. Feed them thin sugar syrup from a slow feeder - 5 or 6 frame-pin size holes in a jam jar lid is fine.

Check after 2 weeks for eggs and larvae.

Unless they're already looking cramped leave them completely alone (apart from continuous feeding) for 3-4 weeks.

Have a look at them. Consider giving them more room. Treat them for mites.

Hopefully they'll have built steadily, and you may have an option at this stage of dividing them - they have time to build enough to overwinter. But first:

You'll have been researching mite-resistant queens, and how to introduce them.

Buy 1 or 2 mite resistant queens - maybe one mated, one not, and change the all-important genetics.

You'll also have had bait hives in good looking spots, and will have placed an ad locally asking for swarms, and contacted police and pest control.

Aim to go into winter with as many hives as you can. Number them and make notes. Don't fiddle with them any more than absolutely necessary. If some seem heavy with mites treat just those, making a strict note to re-queen as soon as possible.

You can now afford to lose a few colonies, and recover without cost. Make sure you have this attitude: these are not pets, they are wild animals, or livestock. If I mollycoddle them I will weaken my genetics.

Depending on your local genetic situation, you may have to buy resistant queens regularly. Only time will tell. If you have local ferals you'll likely be ok.

Basically; plan to be proactive in developing resistance in the local population, an organism of which your colonies are a part, and study that problem. That is called 'husbandry'. Nothing else will do - unless you are lucky and already have a strong feral population. 

Don't bother too much about details. Focus on the big picture, and let the bees do their thing. Its a hands-off game.

Good luck John,

Mike (UK)


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