# Help make the call.



## NW_Mark (Jan 23, 2012)

So what do you loose in the deal?

are you going to sell the packages at a lower cost?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

NW_Mark said:


> So what do you loose in the deal?
> 
> are you going to sell the packages at a lower cost?


What do I loose? The time could be spent on other projects.... Which are many. Since I posted this a package trucker called and said a supplier failed to show with about 1/2 his load this evening as promised. He needs another 500 hundred 3's ASAP. With 1300 queens in the banks as of this evening I'm working on it... 

So the way I read it the demand is there and the supply is gone. I think you are asking if I will lower the price below what we are currently charging. Am I correct? 

Why would I even consider it. Because of the increased risk? Nothing like a great disincentive to increased productivity than to reduce the rewards!!!! That would be a NO. A resounding NO. We will hold steady on price even thought in most cases they ought to be raised in these situations. 

Am not about to be the bottom fish in this game. Desperate but not that desperate.....


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## NW_Mark (Jan 23, 2012)

I look at it like going to Vegas but from how I see it its a win win for you only if you are not going to refund the money. 

I send you X $ for the chance of getting a package and IF you do not come thru I loose all of my money. I have to take you word that you will deliver. So am I willing to risk a non refundable policy IF YOU do not live up to you side?

Either way you get to keep the $$... WOW

I have no skin in this at all but there is no way I would play in that game.

I understand that you want the people to put their $$ where there mouth is


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## Steve Johnson (Apr 25, 2012)

I would never buy anything under any circumstances under the policy of " If everything works out, i'll ship your item, but if it doesn't, I'll keep your money anyway" 

Am I missing something here ? I get the feeling that you think you are doing these people a favor by offering to sell them packages, and because its late in the season, they should be willing to take a 100% loss if something happens on your end, even if its weather or "act of god" and not from negligence.


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## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

What He says next is a lot clearer about the whole thing.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Little clarification. The risk I am speaking of is the risk of overheating of the packages during shipment. The possibility of receiving some dead bees. There has never been anyone who we have taken an order from who has not received their bees.Never... Please reread what I wrote. Its not about our being able to make them up. 

I beg you to find anyone who says and does the following: 1.We don't ship early , we don't ship late, only on the ordered ship dates. 2. For anyone who orders and we are not able to fulfill the specific ship date gets a full and complete refund. 3. 100 % reshipment of all dead packages ordered in our April ( date appropriate) time frame when notified on the day of arrival. 

If you think I am going to take orders and then walk with the money under some bogus pretense you are plain nuts. I'm open to anyone showing me a link for a company who guarantees 100% success in shipping packages See http://www.beeweaver.com/our-policies as an example of a competitors policy. 

You are all chiming in like we are new on the block and are out to scam people. You are welcome to ask anyone who has ordered from us what they got... Please don't read something into my question that was not there!

Now I know why Barry spends half the money he makes on this venture on pain pills.... Wow!


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

If someone doesn't have a reliable way to ship the bees safely, and ships them anyway, he isn't competent to ship bees safely.

If you can't deliver live bees, don't ship them.

If you are concerned only that one or two may be neglected by the post office, give the customer a refund if it happens -- your reputation is worth more than the price of a package of bees.

If you think the bees are worth more than your reputation, I doubt you'll be in business long.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Everyone should take a look at one of the larger companies out there like we'll say Mann Lake LTD. Their policy clearly states “Package Bees & Queens are for PICK-UP ONLY!
All pick up locations, dates, and times are subject to change due to weather or other extenuating circumstances. No refunds will be given for cancellations of package bee or queen orders after February 15, 2014. " 

Now they can make that statement, and you know that if you buy your package that it will be there when it is time to pick it up. However, the act of taking the order, having the funds given to you, NOT being able to deliver the goods, and then give NO refund at all, just because you warned people is just morally disgusting . Things like that are what get businesses into lots of trouble with the attorney general.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Because your reputation is on the line with these 100 people, I would NOT risk it. There will always be a next better bee year. But once your reputation is damaged, these 100 ppl can spread their words of mouth really fast in this information age, you are putting your business on the hot spot. Why sell them something that cannot make it thru their winter, right. I would skip this shipment and move on to the next greater project since so many on hands for you to keep busy thru this season. If you have made your money for this year then it is time to move on.
Put these people on your waiting list for next year to get your bees first. If they don't want it there will be someone who does on the next list down. I would say the demand is still there the next time around given the unstable of our weather every year. People are not happy with dead bees and you are taking the major risk here.


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## ken rice (Apr 28, 2010)

As long as you've been in business and as experienced as your are. If you need to question yourself, then don't take orders and don't ship.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I wouldn't do it. Too much risk to your rep if you don't deliver them. Bad blood is not worth the extra dollars. Get those queens going.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Honey-4-All, 
There is a desperate need for bees this year and you are getting pressured to satisfy the demand, a line must be drawn in the sand and it is you who must draw the line. Don't let what cannot be supplied drive you over the edge, it's not your responsibility to satisfy everyone's needs. If you are sold-out for standard 2014 package orders then leave it at that, don't let others place the pressure of their needs upon you. Just say that it ends here and now, take a moment for yourself and sip an ice tea under a shade tree, you have done your part.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Honey-4-All said:


> Most if not all of these folks are not going to get any elsewhere at this point and if they do it will be way late in the season from some unscrupulous Joe who tells them bees can build in June for a winter survival....


Say what? The 4-frame nucs I got in June last year all got put on plastic foundation... and they built up, and I split them when they built up to practically double the number of colonies I had, and I'm in Canada. Are you saying that in California, bees purchased after May won't have time to build up to make it through your winters...?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Sounds like the discussion is moving from packages to nucs. Certainly a June package, with all the inherent risks of shipping at that time of year, will build for winter just fine. If folks are satisfied with taking that risk and are happy with just getting their hives filled that's one thing. Giving yourself a chance at a honey crop in 2014 is quite another. The honey flow in much of the upper Midwest BEGINS in June. Anything less than a solid box of bees with a minimum of 8 frames of brood at that time of year is going to cost you in honey production. My experience is packages hived after the first of May have already cost you some production. June packages? Really??


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Phil is not talking about June packages. He has the queens in the bank. Just needs to shake bees to make up the packages. His concern are the travel risks. Essentially if he pulls it off he is a hero. If the packages get cooked he is a zero in the eyes of the buyers. Personally I would sell. It is a company policy. If someone flashes money, take it and do the job. I am always unsure about the business so if and when an opportunity arises I take the money and get her done.

Jean-Marc


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Thanks for you advice and the reasons behind them. Still looking to sort this out . Its all about the weather. As of this morning the list has 134 anxious people on it. 10 day forecast as of this morning is as follows from our ship points:


http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/USCA0678

http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/USCA0791

One is on the margin at this point and the other is OK.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Are these shipping on your trucks with your drivers, or a driver with no financial interest in the outcome? We would never take the risk if we didn't have total control of the load and then probably not at all this late with out a way to cool them on route if necessary. All it takes is an extra 5 minutes at that rest stop in the middle of the day to cook a good portion of the load. 
Sheri


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

_Honey-4-All_'s packages ship via _Next Day Air _UPS.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Honey-4-All said:


> Most if not all of these folks are not going to get any elsewhere at this point and if they do it will be way late in the season from some unscrupulous Joe who tells them bees can build in June for a winter survival....
> 
> WHAT WOULD BE YOUR CALL? Sell or move on to the rest of the year?


there are plenty of local sources of bees available after the package bee rush is over for those 134 people. and a june package here is capable of building for winter survival.

is this a genuine request for opinions?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

jean-marc said:


> Phil is not talking about June packages. He has the queens in the bank. Just needs to shake bees to make up the packages. His concern are the travel risks. Essentially if he pulls it off he is a hero. If the packages get cooked he is a zero in the eyes of the buyers. Personally I would sell. It is a company policy. If someone flashes money, take it and do the job. I am always unsure about the business so if and when an opportunity arises I take the money and get her done.
> 
> Jean-Marc




Finally.......... someone who can read and accurately describe my situations quandary and then describe it to a T. 

If I could toss a free package or two across the border for you as the winner of the grand prize I would. One for having an openly observant mind with brilliant deduction. 

Its not about any other issues than you described above. 

Thanks Jean-Marc

Since our over all success rate the past 6 years hovers around 98.5 % and is nicking the bottom of 100% this year I obviously don't want anyone to get dead packages. At some point the weather gets warm enough where that rate goes down... Not something I want or choose but just a fact. The question has to do with offering them to with an increase risk. If 5% crash we can eat it. If its larger then its back to the bank for a loan I am not about to take out.

FYI as Radar says these would all go UPS overnight air Only. We do have a load going to Westernbeekeeper this weekend but we will be hauling those ourselves as I am not about to hand over $30 k worth of packages to some guy who is more interested in his coffee break than keeping bees alive. With package bees its about doing it right or forgetting it totally.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

This thread just goes to show that the longer I have bees the less I know...

Having said that, the issue seems to be one of a contract between buyer and seller. As long as they both understand what they're agreeing to I don't see a problem.


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## MR2Bs (Jun 1, 2013)

Honey-4-All, As a business owner I have to look at my rep. As should you. I have turned down many of customers for unreasonable request,(which I feel this is) but they always come back year after year. As for 1 bad post or 1 bad report about how some one got bees from you and they were dead and you wouldn't and do anything about it. Will loose you business in the future. Even though you state that they will be taking all the risk, people now a days will not take responsibility for their actions they want to blame some one else. That some one will be you in this case. If I were in your shoes I would tell them you are sold out for this year and look forward to filling their needs next year. 

This is my two cents on this matter. Good luck.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Umm, sorry, I must have missed you were shipping these UPS overnight and just assumed a truckload. I would be more positive sending them UPS overnight. We trust thousands of dollars of queens to be shipped this way. I quess I would look at the weather, as you have, and make my decision, knowing, of course, that it doesn't matter how cold it is outside if that UPS driver puts the package on the dashboard for safe keeping. It comes down to your past experience and your risk aversion.
I turn down orders every day that I am not comfortable with the possible outcome. 
So, what is your risk aversion? It is really YOUR call. Feeling lucky?
Sheri


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I would sell making it very clear that it is a suboptimal situation,that you expect around a 5% failure rate and that it is 100% buyers risk with no refunds, replacements or any recourse to recoup their loss. Just think...most will be thrilled. Better odds than other ways to gamble.


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## Steve Johnson (Apr 25, 2012)

I was one of the first ones to respond to your post and didn't get the context that you were speaking of regarding the weather. Shipping wasn't mentioned once. So, to me......the weather being a factor was whether you could get the packages together or not. You never mentioned that you could get them made 100% and that the negative 5% was whether they would survive shipping or not. Myself and a few others that responded don't know your reputation and history. I was trying to be helpful and respond to your post as you asked.

I reread your post and I came up with the same answer based on your exact words. Then I reread it again, but with knowing what you really meant based on your next few posts and came up with a different conclusion which is little importance now. You seemed to be really irritated with the people who didn't get exactly what you meant, even parading around people that did get it, but knew your history and your business........... but you chose the words in your post and the ones you didn't post that would have painted a better picture.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

Steve Johnson said:


> I was one of the first ones to respond to your post and didn't get the context that you were speaking of regarding the weather. Shipping wasn't mentioned once. So, to me......the weather being a factor was whether you could get the packages together or not. You never mentioned that you could get them made 100% and that the negative 5% was whether they would survive shipping or not. Myself and a few others that responded don't know your reputation and history. I was trying to be helpful and respond to your post as you asked.
> 
> I reread your post and I came up with the same answer based on your exact words. Then I reread it again, but with knowing what you really meant based on your next few posts and came up with a different conclusion which is little importance now. You seemed to be really irritated with the people who didn't get exactly what you meant, even parading around people that did get it, but knew your history and your business........... but you chose the words in your post and the ones you didn't post that would have painted a better picture.


When I read your post, I really couldn't understand how anyone could get anything other than the "jean-Marc" interpretation. Then I read the original post again, and determined, yeah, it wasn't totally clear. LOL. 

I guess I just assumed nobody would be so unscrupulous that they would take non-refundable money for packages that they couldn't necessarily create. Which obviously H4A would never do. 

H4A, if the buyers know the terms of the deal, and are still desperate for the packages, I would ship them. As a service provider, all you can do is try to please the customer. If you have the ability to provide the product and don't, you both loose. Just make sure in writing, and verbally that the risk is theirs and you are reluctant, and concerned about the risk that they are accepting.

Luke


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Tick tock tick tock, so whatcha gonna do H4A? Inquiring/curious minds want to know? Oh and Mr Johnson I know H4A from this site, would love to shake his hand and collect my prize but I have yet to meet him. I also suppose in these types of situations if you do not make a decision quickly others do it for you. What i can foresee are buyers getting discouraged after seeing a glimmer of hope for packages, then unless it is agreed upon fairly quickly they seek alternative sources of bees, such as nucs or perhaps hives that they can split along with some of those 1300 banked queens. 

Jean-Marc


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## MNbees (May 27, 2013)

I call exaggeration and BS. who sends 1300 packages ups? sounds like a tall tail. why would they bees die?


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

1300 banked. Uses 500 for the trucker order, leaves 800 and likely more on the way. No doubt he is still getting orders for those fat sassy Ca spring queens so that leaves some for the last minute package orders. If he can beat the heat(cooked bees suck I can tell you from experience) then he should take Jean- Marcs advice and go for it! 
---Mike


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

As long as there are people who pay there will be delivery. Doesn't matter what is the quantity as long
as the delivery company make a profit. I think he will do it.
Over here in mid May onto the summer the temp. can be high enough to cook eggs on the side walk. You
are looking at 90-100+ daily thru out the summer. Last year around June it was over 100°F almost daily. We had
to cancelled our picnic at the park too hot to go outside. 
This is his concern about the cook bees sitting under the hot summer sun. I don't think the ups guy will spray water
onto the package to cool them down. It is a business risk vs the potential reward if he can do it.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Last of this weeks left today. We decide tomorrow (hopefully ) after 3 things happen. clean reports from this weeks shipments. ( aside from a few dead queens we are ok so far) Need to check the weather.... And make sure the load of 750 heading back east are all wrapped. Was pouring bees into packages till 830 tonight till we got stung a thousand times by the crawlers. Got to love April if your in the bee biz


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Honey-4-All said:


> Was pouring bees into packages till 830 tonight till we got stung a thousand times by the crawlers. Got to love April if your in the bee biz


or in bed.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Honey-4-All said:


> packages till 830 tonight till we got stung a thousand times by the crawlers. Got to love April if your in the bee biz


oh I hate crawlers...

oh and my take on your story, risk = reward, but also can spell disaster.... If things go wrong, will your name get dragged through the mud? If you cant conduct this business as you normally would, don't chance your reputation on a little bit of cash.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

However in this business ca$h is King as in most. When opportunities arise, I think it is time to go for them. Sounds like Phil has it under control. Soon April 2014 will be a thing of the past never to return. After he pulls it off, he will have greater demand for his product because in the eyes of those customers he is the man who saved their 2014 season. Might make some room for a slight price increase on account of the higher demand.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ya I agree Jean-Marc. I'm sure Phil has already weighed the risk if doing so where as that 5% failure is probably even smaller than that. 
He is a pro. But he still had fielded the question here to get done feedback meaning that he does measure that risk as substantial.

Let us know how things work out Phil!


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Heres the latest from the NWS:

.Extended Discussion (Tuesday through Friday)
Anomalously strong high pressure ridge builds along the coast
next week ensuring dry weather and well above normal high
temperatures through the extended period. Highs in the Valley will
be in the upper 80s to lower 90s, versus the mid 70s that are the
average for this time of year. 
-----
So its gonna get warm, earlier than usual.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Just got back from the airport sending bees to the great white north. The should be in Fairbanks later this afternoon. 

As Mike mentioned the heat is going to be on big time next week. Not good. In fact not good at all. After we shake today for tomorrows pickups we will look at the weather and decide.

Not sure what the rest of the gang will give as input but at this point I'm voting for a small number to ship Monday or Tuesday. The good thing is we have Oakland as an ace in the hole for shipping as the predicted temps at ship time are much better mid week in the Bay Area than are forecast for Sacramento.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Demand was high enough where the whole lot we offered disappeared under the duress of crazy demand in little over 48 hours. 85 packages shipped today to 47 different individuals ... With the heat predicted to be so high the next few days I'm glad we wrapped on a cool note for the year. Will keep you posted as to the success rate. Considering the temps today including the ones at ship time I think we beat the heat I was concerned about.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I sometimes wonder how nice it would be not to have to base my entire day/week/year/life around the weather. 
You know what I mean? Sit at the table in the morning, look at the forecast, see rain and only have to worry about finding matching rubber boots to wear for the day ... Or see heat coming and the only thought in my head would be beach... Lol


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