# Source of Buckfast stock from Canada for 2016



## Mbeck

I think Miksa had some that he grafted from, not sure if he still offers them.


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## beemandan

Why.....if you have locally adapted, proven, treatment free bees....would you consider bringing in non local, potentially mite sensitive genetics?


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## Fusion_power

Because I need a way to reduce the swarming impulse in my bees. The best way is to breed to a line with reduced swarming impulse. Also, 2 generations of crossing to mite tolerant genetics will bring in enough mite tolerance to select for the combination of lower swarming rate plus mite tolerance.


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## Michael Palmer

I wonder, how much of the mite tolerance in your bees is due to that increased swarming impulse that you want to reduce? Just thinking out loud.


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## squarepeg

it's a fair question michael. i am likely working with very similar stock to what fp has, although he has brought in some genetics from other sources over the years. 

i also have noticed that these bees are very good at swarming. i did have some success this year with late winter checkerboarding and kept the percentage of swarmed colonies to under 20%.

i've wondered if the lack of a brood break associated with swarming might result in higher losses in these non swarmed colonies. so far i can report that none of them collapsed in the fall, and all appear to be in good shape as judged by them putting on more than adequate wintering weight with the fall flow and having strong cluster roar at this point.

in the few short years and with the small numbers of hives for which i've been tracking it i haven't been able to correlate the lack of swarming with increased likelihood of dying out over the winter but it is something that i am watching for.


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## beemandan

Fusion_power said:


> Also, 2 generations of crossing to mite tolerant genetics will bring in enough mite tolerance to select for the combination of lower swarming rate plus mite tolerance.


It would seem just as likely that after crossing one might bring in enough mite sensitivity to undo much of the tolerance. From what I've read, it appears that those tolerant traits are usually recessive. But....what do I know?


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## jwcarlson

I really really wish more of those who are so successful being treatment free would sell queens.
Wish they were net queen exporters.


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## clyderoad

jwcarlson said:


> I really really wish more of those who are so successful being treatment free would sell queens.
> Wish they were net queen exporters.


Hahaha. Don't hold your breath!


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## Fusion_power

I'm not geared up to produce and sell queens. I have been actively spreading mite tolerant genetics in the area by getting new beekeepers started with my line of bees. My time in spring is heavily committed to running my plant business. The bees are strictly a sideline and NOT INTENDED to become a separate business.



> I wonder, how much of the mite tolerance in your bees is due to that increased swarming impulse that you want to reduce? Just thinking out loud.


 I can answer that based on having prevented swarming by various means over the last few years. Swarming - which creates a natural brood break - is a significant mechanism in mite tolerance. If brood breaks are the only mechanism involved, a significant buildup of mites still occurs in the fall. My bees never see that fall buildup. Also, it is very easy to open a colony during active brood rearing and check to see if infested larvae are being removed. I was able to open a colony this past year and show a visiting beekeeper a frame with a larvae in the process of being removed from the cell. It was pretty impressive to be able to point at 2 nurse bees aggressively pulling on a larva until it came out of the cell. We saw the varroa mite just as they got the larvae out of the cell. So to answer your question, colonies that are prevented from swarming do not experience the heavy buildup of mites in the fall. This indicates that something besides swarming is preventing mite buildup.

I had Buckfast bees back in the early 1990's that would not swarm even when a 2 story hive was crowded to the point of hanging out the front. This was just prior to the main honeyflow and prime swarm season for the area. When I compare that memory with the reality of the bees I have today, I really would like to see the non-swarming traits in a bee that is varroa tolerant. This is why I am interested in getting some reasonably pure Buckfast bees again.


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## jwcarlson

There are a million excuses not to share your genetics. You don't have to ship a thousand queens to share the wealth.


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## squarepeg

fp went out and collected a swarm from which he developed his local strain of resistant bees. the guy i bought nucs from located and harvested 5 colonies surviving in trees back in '96 when everyone elses' bees were dropping like flies, and he's been propagating them off treatments ever since.

you've got a lot nerve carlson to disrespect the man by charging him with making excuses. if you really really want survivor stock get off your butt and start capturing unmanaged colonies making it through winter in your own neck of the woods. chances are those will do better for you in the long run than what you might import from elsewhere.

like dar, queens would have to start fetching a price several orders of magnitude higher to make it worth taking time away from the day job to produce them for sale. no brag just fact. on the other hand retirement is not too many years away and if i get the opportunity to do so i hope to produce queens on a much larger scale when that time comes.

but not without making the trip up to st. albans, vermont first.


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## clyderoad

squarepeg said:


> you've got a lot nerve carlson to disrespect the man by charging him with making excuses. if you really really want survivor stock get off your butt and start capturing unmanaged colonies making it through winter in your own neck of the woods. chances are those will do better for you in the long run than what you might import from elsewhere.......


wait a minute. I've read on here numerous times that these survivor stock bees can not be captured just anywhere. The local area has to be blessed with just the right conditions, one being feral bees that have a lineage way back to some ancient black bee that exists in very few locations. And those unmanaged overwintered tree bees in most locations are nothing but escaped bad genetic production bees.

Maybe JWCarlson didn't read the offer FP made to send some bees to Oldtimer in NZ.


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## squarepeg

clyderoad said:


> wait a minute. I've read on here numerous times that these survivor stock bees can not be captured just anywhere.


i don't recall reading that here clyde.



clyderoad said:


> The local area has to be blessed with just the right conditions


conditions probably are important, meaning that there would have to be decent weather, appropriate cavities available and most importantly quality field forage. i suspect that are many areas that support unmanaged bees, while recognizing there are a few that probably don't.



clyderoad said:


> one being feral bees that have a lineage way back to some ancient black bee that exists in very few locations.


i reported having mitochondrial dna testing done on my bees which came back c1, meaning that their queen line traces back to italian and/or carniolan bees, and not to those ancient lineages.



clyderoad said:


> And those unmanaged overwintered tree bees in most locations are nothing but escaped bad genetic production bees.


pure speculation. some may be and some may not. either way, an unmanaged colony making through even one winter off treatments is a start, no? around here it's not hard to find folks who tell you about bees that have been living continuously in their barns ect. year after year.



clyderoad said:


> JWCarlson didn't read the offer FP made to send some bees to Oldtimer in NZ.


nice gesture on fp's part, but of course new zealand's law's don't allow it and i think fp knew that already. 

the thing is clyde that you have posted many times that for you treatment free will be nothing more than a fairy tale until someone sends you queens that perform the same for you. it's your bar to set so have at it, but if that's what it's going to take then i'm not able to help you.


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## clyderoad

squarepeg said:


> the thing is clyde that you have posted many times that for you treatment free will be nothing more than a fairy tale until someone sends you queens that perform the same for you. it's your bar to set so have at it, but if that's what it's going to take then i'm not able to help you.


Or something like that.
You see, many write about these bees but that's where it ends. If the bees were worth their salt in the
hands of other beekeepers (and maybe they are) buyers would be knocking down your door to get a hold of them. If ever there was a 
time to get a price several orders of magnitude higher it is now.
But those who write about the special characteristics of their bees somehow do not make them available, and they
remain just another good story.
The bar you say I've set is not so high as to ignore the fact that all bees have both positive and not so positive "traits", and that none
are perfect.


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## jwcarlson

Jeepers creepers... The nerve I have for suggesting someone who is successfully treatment free make their queens available? I'd send him two for every one in exchange if he were willing. Just one swarm was the source of the whole thing? Really? Or years of collecting? I don't have a ton of bees, but something like 2/3rds of them are from swarms or queens I raised from the overwintered swarms that I captured. 

If you want to read disrespect into what I said, that is your choice. My remark that I wish more successful TF people would make their lines available to others was somehow disrespectful...? There are plenty of excuses on here for the lack of available TF queens. That post was not directed at FP alone... There are plenty of people who wish to join the ranks should we be admitted into such close minded masses who take offense when people compliment there success by saying I'd like a couple of queens from someone who has been so successful at TF beekeeping. 
Regarding me getting off my butt (how respectful)... Here's two from a six+ year inhabited tree:




One from the inside of a tree branch:


I snagged a swarm issued from the attic of a baptist church this spring. Unsure of age, but they were fast building swarmy buggers. 

How someone could construe me asking someone to make their genetics available to others as an insult is beyond me. If someone wanted queens from me, I would be honored. Mine don't have varroa spearing unicorn horns yet though. Guess I'll have to keep getting off my butt and looking for them. 

What trouble is it really to ship a half dozen queens, SP? I could easily have my wife drop them off for me. I am well aware of the economy involved... No one is going to get rich selling 25 queens. But is the cost so high or the time so prohibitive as to completely exclude the possibility? Even if just exchanging between other successful TF folks. That seems like a good idea too.

I originally posted this from my phone which loves to blow away things so I edited it a ton and over a long period of time...
Bottom line is that I'd like to try some TF queens from the people who have success with it. Not a queen that has been most likely unsustainably selected for recessive traits who's daughters will not produce as effective a queen. I'd also like to be able to have some sort of viable exchange or swap of queens where someone who is TF successful would be willing to try someone who is trying to get to that point's stock. Compare apples to apples in both lineage and genetics. Of course geographically the two sources would be different, but within the same apiary with the same keeper... some of that could be equalized. Of course on both sides of the spectrum everyone seems so fearful that some domino is going to fall and all that they have built would come crashing down or something... I'm not a good enough beekeeper to fit the bill that I am describing here. But there are plenty here that are and plenty that have tried and we not successful.

The internet yields itself too easily to flipping out and hyperbolic responses. I genuinely meant no disrespect in suggesting that I wish those on Beesource who are successfully keeping bees TF would be more willing to share their stock. It wasn't pointed directly at FP or SP or anyone singularly. Just an overall desire.

That's it.


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## squarepeg

touche' jw. i guess i was still carrying a chip from when you posted the weekly weather forecast for nehawka, ne, in response to another seasoned and respected veteran who indicated that time constraints from his day job sometimes factored in to his pursuit of beekeeping, and i sensed a similar tone in your post above. my apologies, i really need to learn how not to take this forum so seriously.


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## jwcarlson

squarepeg said:


> i really need to learn how not to take this forum so seriously.


Hop in the boat with me, or maybe Barry will let us borrow the yacht?!?  Seriously no need to apologize. 

Regarding the Nehawka forecast... I just wanted to make sure Mr. Bush knew it was October and 80 degrees and sunny since he couldn't get out of that basement. :lookout:


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney

We need more varroa spearing unicorn horns


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## beepro

I am too want to try some of your tf queens when they are available.
And as long as they are not too expensive like the mite mauling/biting queens. 
I wonder how mite resistant the daughters are once
they're mated with the local no resistance, treated carnis drones?
An idea I have is to source out your tf apiary to the local beekeepers who are
willing and have the time to take care of the grafting and shipping them out. I'm
sure you can find someone here to help you out with the daily time constraint.


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## JRG13

The main issue is gene dilution if you going out and collecting swarms etc... The trick isn't finding the genes, it's recombining them into the proper combinations to get resistance, but then you have to be able to maintain them, and then you now have to think about sex allele populations of breeders which all carry enough of the resistance alleles when mated together produce a high percentage population of F1 daughters that actually express the desired traits. Shipping queens is a slippery path, I don't blame Fusion for not doing it, I've asked him plenty of times but say he ships a few, then now everyone and their mother on Beesource would be asking him to do the same for them, not worth the hassle unless you want to be queen producer.


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## squarepeg

good points jrg. i believe you have reported here and randy oliver has mentioned in his writings that desirable traits are typically lost in a couple of generations when bringing in outside queens.

it makes more sense due to things like adaption to the local environment (weather ect.), and the sustainability of the lineage with successive generations of queen daughters, to locate (if possible) resistant bees that already have a footprint in the local gene pool.

some may be lucky enough to find nearby beekeepers already working with resistant stock and the easiest path would be obtaining bees from them. the next best way in my view would be attempting to locate and collect unmanaged colonies.

i've yet to sell any loose queens but over the past 3 years i've managed to sell about 20 nucs and those have gone to buyers within a 60 mile radius of here. so far they are having good results similar to what i have been getting.


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## JRG13

I think the main issue in most areas is the lack of feral resistant drones or queens in general. Intuitively, you would think resistant genes would persist naturally but it seems a lot of them must be recessive in nature and are easily diluted from the non-resistant populations that are more prevalent due to the nature of beekeeping and the breeding strategy of bees.


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## squarepeg

yep. it's somewhat of a numbers game and when there are many thousands of 'domesticated' colonies competing with much smaller percentage of unmanaged colonies it's easy to see how that dilution would happen.

there are a fair number of beekeepers here in jackson county but no one is what most would describe as very large scale and alabama doesn't allow holding yards for migratory operations.

that, and considering that 2/3rds of the county is still wooded makes me think that there could well be as many or more unmanaged colonies than managed around here, but i have no way of knowing for sure.


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## JRG13

Fusion had some good luck with his swarming approach. I could do it, but honestly, I don't even know where those bees would go, there aren't many suitable trees around or structures for that matter, it would have to be someone's house or barn and availability would still be very limited.


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## squarepeg

understood jrg. i would say the cards are unfortunately stacked against you if that is the case, and your genetics are at the mercy of whatever happens to be around you. still, i commend you for trying and if i were there i would likely be attempting the same.


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## Fusion_power

I received an answer from Ferguson indicating they will be selling queens this year. Two attachments to the email detail the selection results for varroa and tracheal mite tolerance as well as hygienic behavior which they are selecting. There was no pricing info in the email so I called to ask. Bill says they will probably be $40 Canadian per queen plus $95 certification fee. This is subject to change! If you keep up with currency conversion, this translates to roughly $27 per queen plus $65 for the certificate in U.S. dollars.

Here are the documents he sent about selection results. I asked and was given permission to post these here to Beesource.

http://www.selectedplants.com/miscan/Ferguson.Varroa, Nosema and Tracheal Mite Samples_28-05-15.pdf

http://www.selectedplants.com/miscan/Ferguson.Hygienic Results_28-05-15.pdf


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## AAIndigo

Fusion_power said:


> I received an answer from Ferguson indicating they will be selling queens this year. Two attachments to the email detail the selection results for varroa and tracheal mite tolerance as well as hygienic behavior which they are selecting. There was no pricing info in the email so I called to ask. Bill says they will probably be $40 Canadian per queen plus $95 certification fee. This is subject to change! If you keep up with currency conversion, this translates to roughly $27 per queen plus $65 for the certificate in U.S. dollars.
> 
> Here are the documents he sent about selection results. I asked and was given permission to post these here to Beesource.
> 
> http://www.selectedplants.com/miscan/Ferguson.Varroa, Nosema and Tracheal Mite Samples_28-05-15.pdf
> 
> http://www.selectedplants.com/miscan/Ferguson.Hygienic Results_28-05-15.pdf


This may be a dumb question but do you need a certificate with each queen if you buy multiple queens? Is the certificate whats needed to get these through customs?


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## Fusion_power

Yes, the certificate is needed to get through customs. It is a health certificate. Only one is needed per shipment so if several beekeepers combine orders, only one certificate is required.


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## beepro

Somehow if we can figure out a way to pool our resources together and buy a bunch
of queens from him to redistribute back to members here then the
problem is all solved. Who is up to that?


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## bluegrass

I don't believe Bill Ferguson is claiming to sell "Buckfast" anymore. He sustained huge losses a few years ago and that ended his buckfast lines from what I had heard. He raises good bees though.


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## Fusion_power

Bluegrass, I called and spoke to Bill. He clearly stated that he had brought in stock from Denmark over the last few years and that the only bees he is raising are Buckfast. If you doubt, his phone number is in post #1.


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## beepro

It doesn't matter because once you try them you will
know if they are the good or bad stocks. There are not that
many gray/black bees around so if they have the mite fighting
ability then you have hit the jackpot. If not then you got
rip off. I'm sure once the word is out then nobody will
go for those anymore. In the small bee world one's reputation is really
important as we already know from the Russell case before. But we already
know that nothing is a guarantee when bringing in stocks because of the genetic variation.
The hybrids will have bigger queens while the pure stocks will have smaller queens. Take the
case of the Cordovan for example.


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## Fusion_power

Beepro, Buckfast are not selected for varroa tolerance. They are selected for hygienic traits which tends to reduce problems with varroa. There is a huge difference! Please don't get the idea that I am seeking Buckfast queens for varroa tolerance, far from it, I am looking for a way to reduce the swarming tendency in my highly varroa tolerant bees. Crossing with Buckfast has a high probability of achieving the desired result of varroa tolerant bees that are also less inclined to swarm.


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## AstroBee

Fusion_power said:


> Crossing with Buckfast has a high probability of achieving the desired result of varroa tolerant bees that are also less inclined to swarm.


I wish you luck in your endeavor. I know you've been struggling with reducing swarming for quite some time. Did you ask Bill if his "modern" Buckfast have the same low swarming tendencies as those created by Brother Adam?


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## AR Beekeeper

The treatment free bees I have now are from Buckfast/Russian crosses I made in 2006. I raised virgins from Ferguson queens I bought in 2005 and crossed them with Russian drones, put them in a Bond yard. Fergusons queens had a strong tolerance for the mites, they carried a very, very heavy load without crashing. 

I still have 4 colonies here in my home yard that survived and requeened themselves each year since 2007 with no management until last year. The ability to conduct a successful supersedure is a trait I liked about Buckfast, not all bees have that trait. I still have 2 colonies in the Bond yard and if they survive this winter I will move them to my home yard. The Buckfast queens I got from Ferguson's were the best queen I have ever bought.

My bees carry large mite loads, they have natural mite falls in the hundreds, but they don't crash. I would like very much to find mite tolerant queens that maintain small mite populations with which to cross my bees. I have bought BWeaver queens, but their temper is not to my liking. If I can't gentle them down by crossing with my drones they will be of no benefit to me. I have too many close neighbors with children playing in the area to keep testy bees.


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## beepro

There are many levels of hygienic behaviors.
So you mean they are able to removed the dead
bees and grooming each others? Do they act like
the vsh bees also by removing the capped infected
larvae? You are going for the double benefit here, I see.
Pete in NY has been keeping Italians/Russians for the last
10 years without any treatment that he claimed no mites. 
I got one of his queens that the workers look like half and half. I was testing them by 
taking their capped broods to other nuc hives without the vsh
ability. It would be interesting to
see what the daughter queens will look like this coming season. Unfortunately in
my area the local bee association only keeps the carnis where majority of the
drones are from if I open mate them. So maybe you can go for the Russians 
too if you cannot get some Buckfast queens.


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## AstroBee

AR Beekeeper said:


> My bees carry large mite loads, they have natural mite falls in the hundreds, but they don't crash. I would like very much to find mite tolerant queens that maintain small mite populations with which to cross my bees.


Have you ever brought in a VSH breeder? If not, it might be the quickest way to bring in some varroa resistance. You might consider contacting Adam at VPQueens, or John Harbo.

High mite loads are costly to an operation, even when your bees survive. Colonies that carry high numbers are not as productive and are constantly spreading mites to other nearby colonies.


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## beemandan

AstroBee said:


> High mite loads are costly to an operation, even when your bees survive. Colonies that carry high numbers are not as productive and are constantly spreading mites to other nearby colonies.


An extremely important yet overlooked point when the primary standard often seems to be survival. High mite loads are the result of successful reproduction that is directly tied to the loss of vigor of the emerging new bees. Add to that the phoretic mite population feeding on the mature bees. It is a huge tax on the colony...even without considering the vectored diseases.


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## bluegrass

Fusion_power said:


> Bluegrass, I called and spoke to Bill. He clearly stated that he had brought in stock from Denmark over the last few years and that the only bees he is raising are Buckfast. If you doubt, his phone number is in post #1.


Good to know... I have done business with him many times. the last order I placed with him a few years ago got canceled because he suffered huge losses and at the time wasn't sure he was going to be able to recover the buckfast lines.


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## AR Beekeeper

AstroBee; I introduce VSH traits into my bees by buying new queens with that trait every 3 years and using their drones for mating. The VSH breeders I liked most were from Glenn in CA. I have not bought from the people you named. I have been trying "off the shelf" queens and selecting the best for drone mothers, but I don't think I have had the results I had with Glenn's II stock. I have reached the age where I am more interested in cutting back than in colony increase or improvement. I still do natural mite fall counts to select which queens will be Queen Mothers the next year, but that's about all.

Beemandan: You are correct, high mite populations are a drain on the colony. The productivity of a new colony drops each year from the time it is made. My colonies will make their winter stores and usually a deep of surplus the first and second year after they are made. After that the average colony will need to be helped by taking brood or stores from the more prosperous colonies to get them in condition for the spring nectar flow or for winter.

I have little disease, probably because any colony that shows EFB or other brood problems are requeened when the disease is found. I have used no treatments to prevent brood disease in 30 years. I did use Terramycin to combat BPMS after I got varroa mites. Delaplane's 1995 study got that one right, a BPMS colony treated survived and overwintered where a colony left alone would die, even when treated to kill the varroa.


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## AR Beekeeper

BlueGrass; That must have been the year when a bee yard that was close to his operation crashed and Mr. Ferguson's bees were flooded with mites just before winter. I bought queens from him in the spring and had to wait later than usual for delivery.


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## zhiv9

Paul Kelly at the University of Gueph also maintains Buckfast lines. I believe he only sells breeder queens at this point - not sure if he ships to the US


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