# Using fishing line for foundation support doesn't work !!



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Maybe they needed the line to go fishing?


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I have alot of line they could have used instead of cutting it out of the hive !! Live and learn , wish I new it wouldn't work before I used it , at least its not every frame , anyone else heard of this happening . I will be ordering wire soon .


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

no problem with the ones I have done. I have some with mono and some with braided line...none been cut out


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

What test line did you use.? I strung a hundred Kelly F frames about four months ago and have had no problems. I used 80# line off one of my shark reels, it's rather thick line, I thought the lighter line may cut through the comb. I'll check closer soon, thanks for the post.


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## curios1 (Jul 2, 2012)

I have had some work and some not. but I quit fooling around and went to 28 guage wire. setting up a frame with new foundation and expecting to get a few years out of it, requires it to be done right the first time. saves a lot of trouble later on . that has been my experience.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Everything I read suggested to use 10 LB test !! Braid might be the answer ,its hard to cut with regular scissors , but it seems like the bees don't like it so the wire is probably better being embedded into the wax , although much more time consuming. Any tips on wiring I should know about.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I use weedeater string in my foundationless leave about and inch on either end fold toward the middle and pop in a couple of staples works great for me


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

I set up an old saltwater reel on a frame jig and wound 28 gauge wire onto it. Set the drag and started wiring. Cut the wire and take a half turn around the crank to hold it. I wire both sides of wired wax, solid, no embedding. Have tried "x" the wire, can't decide which is best.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I used 20 lb test that was too old to trust on the reels. My issue was not the line but the wax cut in a perfect ‘X’ where the center met and the center peeled back like a flower. I now have some wired foundation so I figured I would try it in another 20 or 30 and see how that works. I wire some, mono some and use bobby pins in some. Seems that the point that the brace hits the wax gets chewed out.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

I tried 10 lb mono last year on about 10 frames and the bees can still be seen pulling it out of the hives, a heavy line is probably the solution but I like wire better.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Is it really necessary to wire or support deep crimped wire foundation if its for the brood chamber and not being run through the extractor .


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

I have had mixed results also. One was chewed up and the line broken. Several have just had the wax chewed away from the support strings and the imbedded crimp wires.
Others have worked out just fine -- not sure why.
I like the ease of placing the fishing line but I think I will just stay with wire.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

You can get by without the wire but the crimped wire foundation can have a bit of a sag or curve to it and the cross wires help to keep it straight as the comb is built. I just use the 2 middle wires and embed them with a spur wheel. Embedding at least 2 wires will keep the comb straight and much easier to handle later during manipulations.


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## Huntingstoneboy (Feb 10, 2013)

30lb mono...4strands on deep frames....so far so good...no complaints.


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## Ryan Williamson (Feb 28, 2012)

my bees have chewed up 15, 30, and even 60lb test line. It is not common but when they do it is frustrating.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Funny I never had them chew up the SS wire meant for wiring frames together. Works flawlessly everytime. wiring frames takes long enough without having to do it multiple times.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

I've also had problems. I used either 10 or 15 # test. The bees cut one after it was 3/4 drawn out. Then on another they left the comb far enough away from the line so they could squeeze under it to get up. I thought of only wiring the upper 2 eyelets instead of the whole thing. It did give me some straight foundationless frames though which is what I was looking for.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

I also use four strands on deeps, just got back from buying more line for the hundred frames that just came in, couldn't find the 80# test that I like so much, the strongest they had was 50#, let everyone know if they chew that through, hope not, hate to restring the frames. On a side note I just make two ties one to start and one to finish I run it through the four holes on each side of the frame. Takes seven feet of line per frame, about two minutes per frame when you get used to doing it.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

laketrout said:


> Everything I read suggested to use 10 LB test !! Braid might be the answer ,its hard to cut with regular scissors , but it seems like the bees don't like it so the wire is probably better being embedded into the wax , although much more time consuming. Any tips on wiring I should know about.


That's much too light, I think..

I'm using 30 lb test, and the bees seem to like it fine. A nice thing about using line on foundationless frames is that if you're harvesting using the cut and strain method, you can cut the line with a knife. I only string the 2 middle holes on deeps, and haven't had a comb fall off yet. It takes a matter of seconds to string a frame using line, because the mono slips enough to pull it pretty tight, and then I stabilize the knot with a dot of Titebond III.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

When its time for new foundation can you cut out the old comb and put new foundation back on the wire even with crimped wire foundation .Also what about duragilt foundation from Dadant no wiring of any kind needed a local friend really likes it but I have heard some that don't .


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

I don't know anything about Duragilt foundation, perhaps someone with experience using it will give some input on that one, but I don't see any problems with replacing old comb with new crimp wire foundation and reusing the wires in the frame.


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## curios1 (Jul 2, 2012)

I reuse the wire. and have had bad luck with duraguilt. but that's just my experience.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Yeah it seems like one of those things you have try for yourself , some love it and others hate it , glad to hear you can reuse the wire but how to go about cleaning up a wired frame with crimped wire foundation and full of old comb !!!

Duragilt for brood chamber just seems so easy to use , no extra support needed , when its time to change it just pop it out and pop in a new one and your done . Its wax coated I would think the bees would be ok with it .


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## Huntingstoneboy (Feb 10, 2013)

My mentor has a pile of Duragilt he would give you....terrible stuff from what we have seen....bees would not draw it out but would rather attach comb along the sides of it...that is after he painted his own melted wax on. I like my foundationless, and mix in a few pf small cell from mannlake...have a few queens that seem to prefer the small cell, and these were cut-out queens, but who knows where they truly originated!


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?217149-Duragilt-Foundation&highlight=duragilt


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Glad someone has finally come forward and told everybody the truth about fishing line in frames.

A little more work up front wiring, but not much more if you are organised, can give frames that will give many years of user pleasure.

I see beginners being led astray constantly with seemingly "good practical" advise, that will actually make things worse in some way. Hope this thread will become a point od reference for people considering fishing line.

I have a home made jig for wiring frames which is very efficient, I don't think anyone could fishline a frame any faster than I could wire one.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Alright oldtimer, you can’t tease us like that and not post a picture of your jig. I do have to say that there have not been too many jigs that have been posted that I have not built (most not nearly as good as the owners).


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK well I'm wiring later today so will get a pic. But like it's owner it's rough, certainly too rough to sell, don't be shocked. 

Works though.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

So much for duragilt , I new that would get a rise !!! My buddy loves it though , has used it for quite few years . Looks like I'm back to good old wax foundation , now I need a look at the wiring jig . What about cutting out a crimped wire foundation and old comb with horizontal wiring also how bad is it !


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I have never seen one of yours Minz so if you feel like it please put up a pic also.

Anyway here's mine, just very basic. On the left is the lever to bend the bars inwards, and on the right is the spool of wire, that's cos I'm right handed.

The next pic down is a close up of the end, it shows the bar stop in the middle, then a stop at each end of the bar set back around 3/16 inch to allow bend. The reason for these stops is because sometimes one end bar is more bendy than the other and can bend and break while the other one stays straight. These stops make sure the bar can only bend so far, then the other one has to bend even if it's stronger. They also stop the frame going angled.

This particular jig has had around 8,000 frames wired on it thus far.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Here's pics of embedding the foundation.

Top pic is a piece of white board that fits inside the frame.

Second pic is the frame with foundation slid into the grooves. It is laid with the foundation on the white board and the wires on top. The terminals from the battery charger are pushed onto each end of the wire and the wire heats and sinks down into the wax. In this pic the bottom wire has been embedded, the top two wires are not embedded yet.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Oldtimer , Thanks for sharing , the pics will help me get set up . Hadn't heard of using a battery charger , I take it you hook them up just inside the side bars and it does one wire at a time , what amp charger are you using .Looks like you wire it fairly tight by hand then the bow in the end bars takes out the rest of the slack , any other tips or anything you would change , looks like I will be building one soon.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The charger output is 2.5 Amps at 12 volts, that's just the one I happen to have. Yes I do it inside the bars one wire at a time, do them all at once there isn't quite the same control to make sure each wire is embedded exactly right.

And yes, I pull the wire through then it gets nailed at one end. In the lower picture of post #31 you can see the wire nail top left hand corner of the pic. Then the lever is used to bend the bars, wire pulled tight and nailed to the other nail you can see in the same pic, lower part of right end bar. I just wind the wire around once & hit the nail in, then wiggle the wire with my hand and it breaks off against the nail. release the lever job done.

The end bars bend a bit more than it looks in the pic but you still have to pull the wire reasonably tight by hand.

In my first beekeeping job when I was a teenager I was bottom of the pecking order and got to do the crap jobs like spend weeks making frames. But practise makes perfect, at least, now I can do that stuff efficiently, the first 10,000 frames is the worst LOL!  When I was wiring those ones today I was thinking what it would be like using fishing line, and I think it might even be slower, cos the wire is more stiff and easy to punch through the holes, pretty sure it would be a tad longer with nylon. The appeal of nylon might be you can tighten by hand & don't need a jig. But you cannot embed it electrically, and a jig is not hard to make.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Old Timer, thanks for the Pics. I have no wiring frame jigs. I was hoping it was a wire management jig. Right now I have an aux fence that I drilled a hole through to use for a wire dispenser. Always happy to post some of my jigs. 
I make my own boxes so I made a jig to square it while I screwed them together. I think I got it from HarryV:
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/Jig2.jpg

I did a frame jig when I had an odd number of parts:
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/DSCF4363_zpsd8859b8c.jpg
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/DSCF4364_zpsefcd898c.jpg

I did a hand hold jig, complements of WimpyH:
No picture found
Finger joint jig for the new (to me) table saw:
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/DSCF4217.jpg
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/DSCF4218.jpg
Old and easy finger joint jig
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/boxjointback.jpg
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/boxjigfront.jpg


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## Genemiller (Jul 21, 2013)

Can you please explain what you are talking about. I don't understand why you are using anything on the frame. Aren't the bees supposed to build on wood itself. I did see a frame that had the plastic foundation on it but why would you add line or wire to it. Are these frames not grooved to hold the frame securely ?


Gene


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Gene ,If you don't add some kind of support to wax foundation on deep frames the foundation will bow and you could get some wild comb in your brood chamber or it could fall out of the grooves. , Also for extracting honey, frames need some kind of support to stand up to the force of spinning especially with the heavy comb laden with honey .


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Some of us don't even use foundation.










Supported by monofilament.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

rhaldridge said:


> Some of us don't even use foundation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have some deeps that full of brood and some mediums and shallows that full of honey on foundationless with monofilament in it.....so I definitely would say fishing line for support DOES work


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Genemiller said:


> Can you please explain what you are talking about. I don't understand why you are using anything on the frame. Aren't the bees supposed to build on wood itself. I did see a frame that had the plastic foundation on it but why would you add line or wire to it. Are these frames not grooved to hold the frame securely ?


Hi Gene, yes of course, bees are quite capable of building their own comb. In a movable frame hive we want them building in the actual frame, so we interfere with nature a little bit by putting "comb guides" at the top of the frame, which you can see in the pic shown by RAldridge. Or alternatively we can put in what is called comb foundation, it is equivalent to the midriff section of a comb. You can see that in the pic in post #32 The one pictured is not plastic it is pure beeswax, and the bees are quite happy to build on it, the advantage for the beekeeper being we get the comb built exactly how and where we want it, with less management needed than in a foundationless hive.

However the thread topic is the use, or non use, of fishing line. So I posted my own view on the matter plus pics of how to do the most common alternative, wire. Although the wax pics & stuff is a tad off topic but necessary for a full understanding of the ramifications of either method.

Some people simply go without either wire or fishing line. But they will have to handle the combs carefully, as the bees do not design combs with the idea a beekeeper will take them out and hold them sideways etc. Most wireless beekeepers experience the frustration of breaking combs while trying to work the hive. Wires / fishing line is simply put there to add strength to the structure to make the beekeepers life easier, and the bees are fine with it, if wire is provided they will happily build on to it for added strength same as they will use the various bits that may protrude into a wild hive in a tree. Most of my own hives use beeswax comb foundation but in my foundationless hives I found the bees when building their combs, actually aim at the wires so they could incorporate them into the comb in the best way.

Pretty smart little beasties.


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## Genemiller (Jul 21, 2013)

Thanks that makes sense. I saw the ones in the store that looked plastic with wax on them. I was told it speeds up the process so they have less to build. Makes sense to me. 

Gene


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Personally I like pure beeswax, not the wax coated plastic ones. But it works for some people.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

What do you call these levers ,I can't seem to find them anywhere .


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9165217566/

Speaking of fishing line... I use an old (1940s) salt water reel to hold my wire. Set the drag to keep from over run then a half turn around the bail to hold the wire when I cut it off. Works for me. Wire, not fishing line.

Old timer save me some searching, give me a part number for that locking lever...

Found it! Inline toggle clamp, one is supplied by Bessy, around 20 bucks!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If you get one you'll love it Julysun. 

Most of my life I've used a wooden lever that has to be set just right each time. The locking lever has made wiring faster & easier. It's adjustable so I wind it back just to where it won't break bars.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Thanks , love the old baitcaster I have one just like it probably a old Penn reel .


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

An Old Penn it is, Laketrout. Can be put back on the rod if needed!

OldTimer, I ordered one!


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Funny I have always put my wax in and then wired it. I would alternate from front to back so it is forced to stay straight. Never bent the frame either, just pull it and pluck it a few times. I use my battery charger to melt in the wire and when the current meter drops I stop. For solid wax I do all 4 at one time, for wire reinforced I have to do them one at a time (otherwise it shorts across 2 wires). Single wires I find that as I move up they take less time to put the current on. 6 minutes per frame. I got an old Penn reel I got off of Craig’s List and when I went in to have it spooled the guy asked me if I was nuts and asked if I knew how much it was worth. I told him ‘sure, I just paid $50 for it, if it aint broke spool it 150 lb test for sturgeon”.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

THERE OUGHT TO BE A LAW that newbies can only use standard equipment and setups! I have been at this beekeeping (one word) 18 months and have tried EVERYTHING! With uniformly bad results! So, now I am going standard.

Oldtimer, thanks for the 3/16 offset backer spacing, saves me some cut and try work.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK well that spacing is what works here, with local grown _pinus ratiata_ that our frames are made from. I'm pretty sure that offset should be OK with most timber types but may pay to use temporary stops for a few frames just to check before making anything real permanent.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Picked some wire and will be wiring some deep frames soon , but my end boards have 4 holes in them , it really seems like overkill wish they were spaced with three holes instead like in the one picture , or are you running 4 wires .The spacing from top down is 1 1/2 , 3 1/2 ,5 1/4 , 7 1/4 .


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## curios1 (Jul 2, 2012)

use all 4 I do the better the beginning the better the end.


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

I use the two middle sets of holes and run the wire just through those 4 holes. Stretch them pretty tight and then embed the wire into the wax with an embedding wheel/tool that I heat in boiling water. So far, the bees have not eaten the wax along the wires but they have along the fishing line. Good luck.


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