# Deep Pressure treated supers! Is this guy for real?



## Jeremy_K (May 17, 2011)

Nice use of safety glasses, I must add.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I was having supper at a restaurant with several of the current prominent "bee scientists" at a conference in Nebraska and the subject came up. They were unanimous in their opinion that the green pressure treated lumber was poisonous to the bees and it was a very bad idea to use it for hives.


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## mrqb (Jul 17, 2011)

technically thats not Pressure treated and he uses copper8 which i've seen for sale in several bee supply catalogs,still I have to agree it's hard to believe you can use that in hives,but why do they sale it in the supply catalogs?????


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

this is a different treatment than the lumber you buy from lowes. the chemical used be very common and sold by the bee supply houses. not sure of its name or status today. If it killed bees this guy would not have bees or the video.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Copper naphtalate and diesel fuel.

He uses a 30 day curing time however.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ap7XlTDFu74&feature=relmfu


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Some of the wood preservatives where sold years ago to treat HIVE STANDS only.
Carbolineum was one?
Crazy Roland


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>he uses copper8

Assuming that is Copper Napthenate then in theory it won't hurt bees.

They used to use creosote on stands...


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> Assuming that is Copper Napthenate then in theory it won't hurt bees.


Depends on who's theory we're using.
Number 5 in the list.
http://www.extension.org/pages/58061/proceedings-of-the-american-bee-research-conference-2009


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

So, if you preserve your woodenware with copper naphthenate, you'll get 'dumb' bees?

Heh, heh.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

He also puts ant poison in his hives to control SHB... This guy is nuts. Basically he has a lot of really bad ideas, I would not recommend anybody follow any of his advice. 

Pulled this from his site about his SHB traps.



> NO THE BAIT IS NOT LEGAL FOR INSIDE BEEHIVES
> 
> NO I WILL NOT TELL YOU WHAT IS OVER THE PHONE
> 
> ...


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

WLC said:


> So, if you preserve your woodenware with copper naphthenate, you'll get 'dumb' bees?


So it would appear, based on this study.


WLC said:


> Heh, heh.


And the funny part is?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Exposure to a single, interior surface, coated with 2% copper napthenate had a significant impact on a measurable bee behavior. I can’t think of a real world instance where this would be good.

In the study one interior surface was treated with 2% copper napthenate. How much more of an impact would it have if all of the interior surfaces were coated?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

"And the funny part is? "
What did Forest Gump's Mama say?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

The only problem with the studies versus real life beekeeping is that you can not tell any difference in colonies in copper napthenate treated hives and nontreated hives.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

This guy was also using what he calls 'copper naphthalate' in diesel. The study used a water soluble copper naphthenate. It could make a difference.

Regardless, it seems like a long way to go to treat wood (up to 60 days from cutting lumber to finished hive bodies).


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

AR Beekeeper said:


> The only problem with the studies versus real life beekeeping is that you can not tell any difference in colonies in copper napthenate treated hives and nontreated hives.


In the ‘old days’ the LD50 of a compound was determined. Then applications of those compounds at levels substantially below that LD50 were presumed to be safe. There is now a body of compelling evidence that sublethal levels of many compounds have a deleterious impact on the health of honeybees. Add to that the evidence that combinations of those sublethal levels of various compounds will have a negative, synergistic effect. I believe that most beekeepers accept this as fact. 
While you may not observe any direct effects of copper napthanate in your hives, there is a clear implication that it does affect bee behavior. In a case like this I tend to err on the side of caution. 
If I believed that the use of copper napthante outweighed the risks, I’d use it. But, I don’t see the need. I’ve used woodenware that had been in service for decades with no rot. Typically the failures are due to wear and tear. The only advantage I see in using copper napthanate is convenience. You dip your woodenware, allow it to dry and you’re done. I can build a load of stuff, stack and spray paint it…..and frankly it seems as easy and probably as cheap. I won’t be using the stuff.
If you feel the need to, go for it. 



WLC said:


> This guy was also using what he calls 'copper naphthalate' in diesel.


I can’t imagine that improves its effect on bees.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

This guy has no beesness being on the airwaves...whats that old saying..."an accident waiting to happen"....


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

There are plenty of beekeepers who take preserving woodware to what many of us would consider to be extremes (and even more than a bit ill-advised).

But, he did say that he had termite and wood rot problems. And quite frankly, those hives did look very nice when painted up.

Perhaps his method of using diesel, copper naphthalate (whatever product he uses), and some good coats of paint on the outside and inside fronts of his hives works for him.

You see, while water soluble copper naphthenate has been shown in that study to impair learning and memory in bees, no such data exists for his method.

Who knows? Maybe it doesn't affect his bees?


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

wow...ok...this is going to sound crazy but let me make a suggestion...cleats. Good hand holds and take about 1/1000000000 of the time he took to "deepen" those hand holds.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Not to mention a whole lot safer to make as well.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

The first video made it sound like he was buying treated wood to make the hives. The fact that he treated them himself and then sawed out the hand holds deeper without wearing any sort of respirator or safety glasses leads me to believe that the chemicals in his hives is effecting his brain.

If you are going proceed to cut out the handholds wouldn't common sense dictate that you do it prior to permeating the wood with chemical treatment?


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## BoilerJim (Apr 15, 2011)

Although I don't and wouldn't use pressure treated wood myself, being a newbee w/o a mentor my 10 yr old daughter & I turned to youtube videos for education. This guy and his videos has become one of our favorites. We even drove out of the way returning home to Indiana from Florida last month just to meet him and get our picture taken with him. He was very nice and made my daughter's day!


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I have watched all of his videos and he does alot of things that just don't make sense to me.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

This is a great example that not everything on the Internet is good, true or the right thing to do. Be careful what you learn from.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Depends on who's theory we're using.

Hence my choice of words...


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I would say that in practice, this guy's method for preserving woodenware hasn't killed his bees (or anyone else as far as we know).

But, is it really worth it? All of that cutting, and dipping, and curing, and then assembling and painting...?

Maybe it's far better to use that time to increase both productivity and profits so that you can buy new woodenware as needed?

I can think of one good reason why it's better to rotate out woodenware when keeping invertebrates. The woodenware can become a reservoir for diseases and pests.

So, why even try to keep your woodenware around for 10 years?

I don't think that they even make most of those wood preservatives and paints locally anymore.

Finally, It might be better for the economy since most hive bodies are made locally from local lumber.

Why knock yourself out (literally) if it isn't a good idea?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The woodenware can become a reservoir for diseases and pests.

Which diseases and pests? I don't know of any for which wood is a reservoir. Brood diseases might be in the comb, but the wood is pretty much sealed up inside the hive and propolis is the best prevention for most diseases, not a reservoir.

>So, why even try to keep your woodenware around for 10 years?

I have some that is almost 40 years old that has bees in it but will probably be retired soon. I put no effort into keeping it around for that long, I just used it. I see no reason not to use it for as long as it lasts.

>Finally, It might be better for the economy since most hive bodies are made locally from local lumber.

I'd say most is made half way across the country and shipped... I don't think I've ever bought a hive that was shipped less than 1,200 miles from where it was manufactured even if I got it from someplace only 500 miles away (which would be the closest). Unless I made it myself and the last lumber I bought for that said it was from Finland, if I remember right...


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## ncsteeler (Apr 15, 2009)

Cleats are a no go for commercials, who have to pallet the hives. Obviously it doesn't kill his bees or he would be out of business. As someone with direct knowledge of life in Georgia, I can tell you termites can destroy a brand new painted hive in one summer or less. When I moved there I was told there are three types of houses in GA, ones with termites, ones that just got rid of them and ones that are a bout to get them. little suckers ate the paper backing on my drywall between the plaster and the paint.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bluegrass said:


> Is it even legal to use PT lumber for honey supers?
> 
> 
> > Legal? There are no Laws or Regulations concerning what one builds their equipment out of.


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