# Bees in the "Great White North".



## snowglobe (Mar 22, 2007)

Greetings,

I am considering a new hobby of beekeeping in Canada near the Ontario, Manitoba border. 

To date, I know of no other beekeepers in this area. I know that my plants have been pollenated till today,... but the only bees that I have seen are wild bumblebees. 

I hope to hear from other beekeeper from "The Great White North"...to learn from them. 

Thanks in advance!


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## snowglobe (Mar 22, 2007)

*Bees in the "Great White North"*

I should clarify why I am posting in the "pest/danger" column.

There is a serious problem to beehives in this area, of all other infestations, and add to this, the Black Bear population.....(that we all wish could be sent to downtown Toronto)! ;-)


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## Jim Etzel (Nov 22, 2005)

I live in North central Minnesota, where black bears are very common. I have tended bees for 3 seasons now and I simply put up electric fences to keep the bears and skunks at a distance. If you have bumble bees, honey bees will probably have some similar nectar sources and do just fine. I consider myself still to be a rooky because beekeeping is an on going learning process. I received a wonderful honey crop last fall and over wintered enough colonies to keep my hobby going forward. I hope this helps


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## Lance (Aug 11, 2005)

Hi;
There are quit a few beekeepers about an hour east of there. As soon as the trees stop and the prairie starts to appear. So Maybe you could get into contact with them, because they would have somewhat similar problems that you will be having. I live about two hours from there, so the temperatures would be similar but the landscape sure isn't.


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## snowglobe (Mar 22, 2007)

Hello neighbors!  

Jim, 
I hadn't even thought about skunks as a potential problem. We definately have them too! I am glad to hear that you are using electic fencing, because I have come to the conclusion that if I put a hive without this kind of protection, it would be an act of extreem foolishness. 

If you have the time, could you tell me about the type of fencing that you are using?...and any advice that you have gleaned so far that might help me in this area? 

I was looking at this product earlier this morning, but I have not come to any decisions on what I should purchase. http://www.electrobearguard.com/Product.html

Lance, 
I grew up in Winter-peg, and am now living close to Lake of the Woods. I have a chunk of property on the Canadian Shield, that is mostly wild...and so is the vegetation. I think that a hive or two would make out alright, if I can keep the bears etc. out. 

I would like to hear about the experiences of "Toban" beekeepers.


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## Ardilla (Jul 17, 2006)

*Bear Fencing*

Here are a couple links to information on electric fences for black bears:

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/assist...am/beehive_protection_with_electric_fence.pdf

http://bears.mnr.gov.on.ca/technote_fence_permanent.html

There are a few other similar guides on the web.

I just installed an electric fence using six strands of 14 ga. galvanized wire, wood posts with ceramic insulators, and a Parmak 6V solar fence charger. Because my soils are thin and rocky (depth to bedrock ~2 feet), I used several short ground rods installed at an angle and buried a perimeter ground wire. The grounding is very important. 

Many people bait their fences with a puctured can of fish, bacon in aluminum foil, or many other things. The idea being that the bear will get a good shock to the nose or mouth and be conditioned not to go through the fence. I've heard stories of bear breaking through electric fences once they learn there are bees to be had. 

You can find discussions on discouraging skunks on BeeSource as well. Many people use nail strips in front of the hives.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>You can find discussions on discouraging skunks 

trap shoot or poison!

Ha

cant seem to get ahead of them in my yards here!


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## snowglobe (Mar 22, 2007)

Ardilla, This is very helpful. 

I think that I will need to use the ground wire as you did, because my soil sounds worse than yours. 

I have good news in this my investigations on solving the bear problem. One of my co-workers lived in the area between here and Winter-peg until two years ago. They know beekeepers in the area, and her husband seems to be rather knowledgeable on this type of fencing, and the building of such, and the suppliers of the "gizmos" and "widgets" associated with this type of project.  

Little by little things seem to be falling into place.  

Next?...Skunks I suppose.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Next?...Skunks I suppose.

You know snowglobe,

I will just like to mention on thing about my experience with skunks.

I have found that ever since I have palletized my operations, the skunk problem has gone down tremendously.
Why? I think it is because I am forcing the skunks to reach up to the entrance exposing their bellies to the bees more.

When I make up nucs, I tend to scatter them on the ground throughout my yard, to make better use of orientation flights rather than on pallets.
The yard sometimes just gets rapped, up until I palletize the hives, and then the skunks damages greatly reduces.
Still have to shoot them, but now at least they dont clean as many hives right out!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>trap shoot or poison!

Since I've gone to top entrances I've had no skunk or mouse problems.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Micheal, 

I have alway wondered, in such a set up, do you find exessive wax and bee build up on your bottom boards. Any problems with wax moth?


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## snowglobe (Mar 22, 2007)

Gentlemen,

I am happy to see discussions on topics that are very important to me, and that directly effect decisions that I will shortly have to make.

Ian, please write it in stone that you opinion that I will be seeking in the future.

You said in post #9

*I have found that ever since I have palletized my operations, the skunk problem has gone down tremendously.
Why? I think it is because I am forcing the skunks to reach up to the entrance exposing their bellies to the bees more*.

Here is what I am trying to sort out. I wrote and asked about the DE hives....

http://www.beeworks.com/d_e_details.html

A new hive stand, low on the ground, for both security and weatherproofing, to provide dead air space under the hive floor.

Please help me to understand more clearly. Is this dead air space an insulation for the hive to help to maintain it's temperature during the winter? Would placing this hive on an elevated platform in fact defeat the purpose of this design?

A partial answer from the designer....(I hope that I am not hurting this man) I like him allot!!!!

Placing the hive on an elevated platform which doesn't provide a solid base will allow cold air and snow to circulate underneath the hive cooling the floor, not a good thing. Secondly, most raised platforms are in the form of cinder blocks, hardly secure, hives have been known to fall off especially with frost heave. Finally, raised platforms also raise the hive roof, making it more difficult to add and remove boxes.

As an aside....I am contemplating placing my potential future hives squarely on the Canadian shield, and the chance of ground upheaval is very minimal.

As for elevated platforms...I have made no decisions yet.


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## snowglobe (Mar 22, 2007)

Micheal Bush, 

You posted....
Since I've gone to top entrances I've had no skunk or mouse problems.

This is very interesting for those of us who do not want to have to learn every dang thing the hard way. 

If you have the time, could you explain more about the top entrance decision that you made for your own hives? 

This would be greatly appreciated! 

Sasha


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## BJ (Sep 11, 2006)

*Good to see EH?*

Snowglobe,

Cheers to the Great White North Eh?

It might not be a great idea to winter the hives up high, but to move them to a high stand in the spring when the skunks become active. Mice shouldn't be too much of a problem if you put a good solid entrance reducer during the winter.


I winter on a solid pallot with 4 hives clustered together side to side back to back. That way they can draw heat from each other. I put a 1/2'' black plywood box around them with a 2-3'' space on the outside and pack them with shavings on the sides and 12-16'' of shavings on top with a black sheet metal roof, and I'm successful with wintering single brood boxes. I'm further south but i'll bet you'd be successful double brooding to keep up the honey stores. I use screen bottom boards that give a 1 1/2'' dead air space at the bottom for insulation.

I can send some pics and more details if your interested.

Good luck.

Wild blue berry honey on fresh pickrel ....yum!


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## snowglobe (Mar 22, 2007)

Hey BJ! EH?

Your suggestions make great sense! Much appreciated!  Putting what skunks desire out of reach for the season, and a good mouse guard for the winter! 

Clustering the hives over the winter?....again, this makes sense to me! 

I might be plunking my hives square in the middle of a wild blueberry patch that is situated on my property up a hill, then a cliff. 

As for pickeral?...this is the place to be! 

I would definately like to see your pictures, and to have more information from you. Can you post this in the forum, or should I post my e-mail address. 

Thanks for your help and suggestions! EH?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Placing the hive on an elevated platform which doesn't provide a solid base will allow cold air and snow to circulate underneath the hive cooling the floor, not a good thing. Secondly, most raised platforms are in the form of cinder blocks, hardly secure, hives have been known to fall off especially with frost heave. Finally, raised platforms also raise the hive roof, making it more difficult to add and remove boxes.


Well, I agree with the last statement. The reach would be about one box higher.

But all in all, I don't really understand what you are doing. 

>>A new hive stand, low on the ground, for both security and weatherproofing, to provide dead air space under the hive floor.

To be absolutely frank, and I will hope to assume you want me to be honest, I think it is not needed.
My hives are at least 6-8 inches off the ground on pallets, hives sitting on basic bottom boards. I winter outside in locations where the snow will "cover their feet", sort of speak. And all that will accomplish is to keep the drafts down to nil.
As for any thought towards bottom board insulation, none.
All my efforts of insulating the hives go on the sides and mostly on the tops. 

I like to keep my beekeeping operations simple, and basic. Leave all this fancy stuff for the garden hives


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## snowglobe (Mar 22, 2007)

*
To be absolutely frank, and I will hope to assume you want me to be honest,
*
This is correct!


*I think it is not needed. My hives are at least 6-8 inches off the ground on pallets, hives sitting on basic bottom boards*.

Gads! Is 6-8 inches all that it takes to discourage skunks! I had "assumed" that it would have taken more height than this.
*
I winter outside in locations where the snow will "cover their feet", sort of speak. And all that will accomplish is to keep the drafts down to nil.*

You and I are both "Tobans", and yes, I understand what you are saying.

*As for any thought towards bottom board insulation, none.*

Okay.

*All my efforts of insulating the hives go on the sides and mostly on the tops.*

Would you be willing to explain what this side and roof insulation consists of? This would be most helpful to understand.

I like to keep my beekeeping operations simple, and basic. Leave all this fancy stuff for the garden hives

Weeeeeeeeelll?...It is in the realm of possibility that I will get into the "fancydancy" garden hive stuff. If this day comes?....Then it would be my pleasure to teach you how to drink your tea with an extended pinkie, whilst working your hives! 
__________________


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If you have the time, could you explain more about the top entrance decision that you made for your own hives?

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#topentrance
http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopentrance.htm

Did I miss any of your questions in the above links? Let me know.


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## snowglobe (Mar 22, 2007)

*Did I miss any of your questions in the above links? Let me know.*

Negative on that.

What you have shown deals with a whole realm of problems. The mice and skunks, the hives being on the ground for insulation...(If in fact this is needed because snow IS an insulator).

The problem of shoveling the snow out of the way of the entrance of the bottom entrance hive....(To be honest, this would be an added burden at the time of year that I least like to be outside)....

No, you have missed nothing, and your post has been very helpful!

Thanks.


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## BJ (Sep 11, 2006)

My buddy 15 minutes up the road had a bunch of hives burried this year and they made it just fine. It's only bad if they get sealed completely with freezing rain. Then the moisture can't escape and they will freeze. The heat from the hive will melt the snow in front of the entrances and make a cavity where they can get out and still make cleansing deposits.

I'll send some winter packaging pics in a few days.....my wife took the camera out of town this weekend.


Cheers


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## snowglobe (Mar 22, 2007)

BJ, I would definately like to see these pictures. Thanks.


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## snowglobe (Mar 22, 2007)

Ian and Lance, 

You are both not too far from here. 

Ian, this is the type of stand that is working for you?

Lance, the hive in this picture looks very healthy. Has this hive made it through a winter or two? 

Thanks.


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## snowglobe (Mar 22, 2007)

Sorry, I forgot the link.

http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/lance/index.htm


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

*Wintering Bees*

http://www.sasktelwebsite.net/gilmar/research_and_publications.html
If have posted this link before but I think you will find it interesting.


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## snowglobe (Mar 22, 2007)

dgl1948 said:


> http://www.sasktelwebsite.net/gilmar/research_and_publications.html
> If have posted this link before but I think you will find it interesting.


dgl1948,

You were right! These article were VERY encouraging!


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## Lance (Aug 11, 2005)

snowglobe said:


> Ian and Lance,
> 
> You are both not too far from here.
> 
> ...


Yup, the hive made it through two winters before it dead one winter. However I think it could use more holes because water seems to condensate to much in the hive, and in summer it had a problem with chalk brood. I actually never feed it in fall, all they had was honey and interestingly enough that canola honey never got rock hard like it does when you extract it. It did cyrstalize but it was still partly liquid. You do learn quit a lot from the bees when you let them build their hives according do what they need.


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## snowglobe (Mar 22, 2007)

Excellent!  

Lance, 

Two more questions....

Did this hive winter on top of the cinder blocks? ...and was the hive insulated for winter in any way? 

Thanks for letting me know about the condensation, because now I can attempt to add a bit more ventilation. 

Thanks


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## Lance (Aug 11, 2005)

snowglobe said:


> Excellent!
> 
> Lance,
> 
> ...


Let me think here......... Yes it was wintered on top of those blocks. I wrapped some straw around it and saran wrapped it in plastic, I don't think it worked to well that way, like I said there was to much condensation and the saran wrap didn't help any. Next time I'll try wrapping it in black tar paper or something like that. The mice liked the straw thou, they even made a nest in the very back of the hive, I wasn't to impressed with that!!


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## snowglobe (Mar 22, 2007)

*The mice liked the straw thou, they even made a nest in the very back of the hive, I wasn't to impressed with that!!*

Eeeeeeeww! 

Lance, 

Do you recall the rough dimensions of this hive? 
You don't have to drag out a measuring tape. Just rough measurements would be helpful. 

If you were to rebuild it, what changes would you make? Would you make it longer?...wider?...deeper?...slant sides?...upper entrance?...entrance placed in the middle of the hive body instead of the end?...would you slope the roof? 

I hope that you don't mind me asking you so many questions.

Please answer if, and when you have time. Sorry if I am becoming a pest.   

Thanks.


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## Lance (Aug 11, 2005)

snowglobe said:


> *The mice liked the straw thou, they even made a nest in the very back of the hive, I wasn't to impressed with that!!*
> 
> Eeeeeeeww!
> 
> ...


Here's where I got the idea from in the first place http://beetalk.tripod.com/tbh.htm You should be able to get all the dimensions that you need from it. I will modify mine for this beekeeping year but exactly how I haven't decided yet. There are many ideas online to try, the choices seem endless.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Would you be willing to explain what this side and roof insulation consists of? This would be most helpful to understand.


I wrap my hives in groups of four, insulation wrapped with tar paper.
Works good, cheap and quick!


>>>>I think it is not needed. My hives are at least 6-8 inches off the ground on pallets, hives sitting on basic bottom boards.

>>Gads! Is 6-8 inches all that it takes to discourage skunks! I had "assumed" that it would have taken more height than this.


Thats not what I said,
Earlier I mentioned less of a skunk problem with the use of pallets. 
Its not a problem solver...
A good trap and a gun is,


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