# Considering all medium box hives, any reasons not to?



## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

I will be ordering woodenware and frames soon. I only have two hives so far, and am considering going with all medium boxes for brood and supers. 

I am considering this for several reasons:
I am a petite female and will be moving hives myself at times. 

I seems like managing honey logged brood boxes would be easier with all one size box

it seems that splits, and brood in supers would be easier th manage

simplification of materials.

Being new, I respect that most people use deeps and shallow or medium supers. what other info should I consider before deciding?


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

I started with 8-frame mediums four years ago and haven't looked back. They've worked fine. I started with a nuc of bees and then bought two 10-frame single deep colonies. My plans at the time were to go all 8-frame medium as I'm not getting any younger and also had back surgery in the distant past. inch: What I did was simply stack 8-frame mediums to one side of the 10-frame deeps...the gap left open (about a frame and a half) I simply covered with a piece of painted 1x4 board and laid a brick on top of it to hold it there till the bees glued it down. It worked great and I've have used 8-frame mediums exclusively since then. I know you didn't ask about 8-frame equipment, but thought I'd mention it since you are concerned with the weight issue.

Best wishes,
Ed


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Mediums will work great. These are not reasons, to not do it, just a few considerations.

1. If you decide to sell some nucs at some point, more people use deeps for brood than mediums. ( at least in my area)

2. If you decide to expand, and can find some used equipment, there will be more used deep brood chambers, and used deep frames, than mediums. (again in my area).

3. Heavier lifting your honey supers off the top.

4. It takes about 3 mediums to equal 2 deeps for your brood chambers, so you will have to buy more medium boxes and more medium frames. The upside here for you is that all mediums would mean all your equipment would interchange.

Again, these are not reasons to not use mediums, just some thoughts. I am sure there are others.

cchoganjr


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I've been running all ten frame mediums for everything. For me, it makes sense. For me. A honey laiden ten frame can easily be 50lbs.

For you I'd recommend 8 frame mediums for everything.
DISCLAIMER: Nowhere in the above aforementioned statement can it be construed that you (a "petite female") can't handle ten frame mediums. lol


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

You should do a search. Covered many many times. For most, all mediums is best way to go. 

Reasons not to run mediums
More Equipment, More frames to inspect, more costly and time consuming.

I like deeps. All my hives are accessible my truck. So lifting yes is heavy, but no need to transport more than a few feet. Im also young...its not thaaat heavy.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The only drawback I can see is the cost is higher with the mediums equipment and a bit more again with the 8 framers. Even an 8 frame medium full with honey is a fair lift at arms length and chest high or higher. I have 10 frame deep brood and medium supers. I sure wish I had gone all 8 frame mediums from the get go.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I use mediums for everything.

Mine are 10 frame, but I seriously considered 8 frame. One tradeoff with smaller boxes is that not only does it take more boxes to achieve the same volume of hive space (meaning higher cost), but the stack of boxes will also be higher. Even though the box weight is less, the higher you lift it the more difficult it will be to lift that last box.

A work around for this is to pull/extract honey boxes more frequently - the tradeoff is more time for multiple extraction sessions.


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## LanduytG (Aug 29, 2013)

3 med are no taller than 2 deeps. I'm new this year and bought deep brood chambers and med for the suppers. I plan to expand some next year and I'll be going all med. I just want all one size and as others have said not getting any younger.

Greg


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> 3 med are no taller than 2 deeps. 

If you have more boxes, but want/expect the _same _comb volume, then more space will be devoted to frame top bars and bottom bars with mediums compared to deeps. There are 30 frame top bars + 30 bottom bars in 3 mediums, but only 20 top bars +20 bottom bars in 2 deeps. In addition to the additional frame components, there is an additional "bee space" (2 vs 1) between the extra box. The _extra _space required will grow with each additional medium box (compared to deep boxes). My estimate is that those 3 items total about 1.5" in extra stack height per additional medium box to achieve the same comb volume as deep boxes.

You may consider that a _reasonable tradeoff_ for the benefit of smaller/lighter individual boxes, but the fact is that the stack of medium boxes will be undeniably taller to achieve the _same _comb volume than with deep boxes.

As I said earlier, I use all mediums. I am willing to make that trade-off, but the OP was asking for an assessment of pro/cons.

.


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## LanduytG (Aug 29, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > 3 med are no taller than 2 deeps.
> 
> If you have more boxes, but want/expect the _same _comb volume, then more space will be devoted to frame top bars and bottom bars with mediums compared to deeps. There are 30 frame top bars + 30 bottom bars in 3 mediums, but only 20 top bars +20 bottom bars in 2 deeps. In addition to the additional frame components, there is an additional "bee space" (2 vs 1) between the extra box. The _extra _space required will grow with each additional medium box (compared to deep boxes). My estimate is that those 3 items total about 1.5" in extra stack height per additional medium box to achieve the same comb volume as deep boxes.
> 
> ...


g.
Yes it is true. But that fact is with mediums your total height is only 2" taller and you loose 17 square inches of comb, over running 2 deeps. Not much of a con IMHO for someone that is small and has to do the lifting. Of course you do have the extra equipment which will cost you a bit more.

Greg


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I use deep brood chambers and everything else medium. My daughter helps me and a deep of honey she cannot move. If it where not for our need to have deep frames I would simply go to all med boxes. We make and sell nucs. and the customer wants what the customer wants.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

The height of a hive is not determined by the frames inside it. it is determined by the height of a box. A deep is 9 5/8 inches tall. a medium is 6 5/8.

2 deeps equals 19 1/4 inches tall. 3 mediums are 19 7/8. That is a 5/8 inch difference. The mediums are taller.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Three mediums are more expensive than two deeps, so running all medium vs. all deeps is more expensive. The bigger the frames, the less interruption in the brood area, as well. Deeps of honey are obviously heavier, though.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I find queens lay a better pattern in deeps vs. mediums. 

The brood oval becomes cramped and interupted in mediums easily. When you tally out the honey and pollen crown and the tendency to lay drone around the edges and bottom, the medium leaves less than a day of open cells. This forces the queen up or sideways with real velocity. The result usually is a narrow chimney of brood, and this chimney is difficult for the hive to regulate, and interferes with honey management.

The lack of interchangeability is a positive for me. Brood comb is managed differently than honey comb. In an all medium system the two combs (inevitably, or except with exceptional diligence) become highly mixed.

(Just today there is a forum post illustrating and expanding my first point: 
An all medium keeper is complaining about finding queens (30 frames to check instead of 20) and the fact that isolating the queen to a particular box is difficult with more divisions and a higher tendency to move from box to box) http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...eens-with-three-mediums&p=1150287#post1150287


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

LanduytG said:


> Not much of a con IMHO for someone that is small and has to do the lifting. Greg


I also agree that the difference is very small, and really insignificant when talking about 60 to 90 pounds. One thing I think some are overlooking is, If you go with all mediums, (unless you go with 8 frame mediums) the honey supers in the mediums will weigh more than honey supers that are shallows. 

At least in my area, if you go with 2 deep for brood chambers, you then use shallows for your honey supers. The shallows will be lighter than mediums, and, you do have to lift them off the top of the hives to inspect the hives and harvest honey.

I suppose some of this discussion has to do with my post that 3 mediums are taller than 2 deeps. That was bad wording on my part. I wan't thinking about the actual height of the two, but rather, the lifting of mediums off the top that will be heavier than shallows. Bad writing on my part. I apologize. 

All that said, there is nothing wrong with going all medium, but, if I was going all medium, and if I wanted the honey supers lighter, and if I was just starting out, I would go 8 frame mediums. There are some good reasons to go medium, some drawbacks. Go with whatever works for you. There are good and not so good in both.

cchoganjr


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Dominic said:


> Three mediums are more expensive than two deeps, so running all medium vs. all deeps is more expensive. The bigger the frames, the less interruption in the brood area, as well. Deeps of honey are obviously heavier, though.





JWChesnut said:


> I find queens lay a better pattern in deeps vs. mediums.
> 
> The brood oval becomes cramped and interupted in mediums easily. When you tally out the honey and pollen crown and the tendency to lay drone around the edges and bottom, the medium leaves less than a day of open cells. This forces the queen up or sideways with real velocity. The result usually is a narrow chimney of brood, and this chimney is difficult for the hive to regulate, and interferes with honey management.
> 
> The lack of interchangeability is a positive for me. Brood comb is managed differently than honey comb. In an all medium system the two combs (inevitably, or except with exceptional diligence) become highly mixed.


I agree. I ran all 10 frame mediums up until this spring when I introduced deeps to half of my hives. But it was because of moisture problems over the winter months and not for the points you guys made above.
What I have found this spring and summer is exactly as you both have described point for point, and a welcomed unexpected result. I like this deep under medium super set up more than the all medium set up.
I'll have to wait for winter to see if the new deeps for brood nest configuration solves the moisture issue.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Keep in mind rolftonbees, most cutouts I do have comb size equal to a medium frame. Bees love to build a hive in roof soffits and the most common size is a 2X6, meaning a cavity that is 5-1/2" high by 12" wide. Bees will adapt to whatever size you go with and arguments will ensue over which size is best!


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I became a new beekeeper, when I was ten years old (1966). My beginner's kit came with one 10-frame deep super and one 10-frame medium super. The location of my first hive was on top of our garden shed. Back then I wasn't strong enough to even lift a 10-frame deep, unless it had no bees or combs, but only empty frames. Soon, I read an article in "Gleanings in Bee Culture" advocating the use of all medium depth supers. I followed that advice, and haven't regretted it since. More recently, reading advice by Michael Bush, I even moved from 10-frame mediums to 8-frame mediums. Thanks to Michael Bush, I've also switched to 1-1/4" wide End Bars on my frames. It's been more than a decade now that I've been running my hives like this. Still without regrets.

So, to answer your question, I have found no obvious reasons not to operate with all 8-frame medium size equipment. I do also operate with a few 8-frame and 10-frame deep supers, just to keep reminding me of the reasons I prefer 8-frame medium supers.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Operations that invove handling brood frames take at least a third longer. For my style of beekeeping that is a royal PITA. I have too many colonies for a fat man with heart failure to add unneccessary steps to my beekeeping. My answer may temporarily be different after I extract these deeps I used as supers so I could get more brood comb drawn.


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## LanduytG (Aug 29, 2013)

I like to make things come out even so you don't have part of a figure. Like a deep is 9.25 or what ever your lumber is I divide that by 12 so each figure is .770 wide.

I'm sure others will have a better way but thats how I like it. But that is easy to do on my jig. If you are making a jig it can be done but will take time.

Greg


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I use all 8 frame mediums and HAVE looked back, but for me the virtues of deeps don't weigh enough to use two sizes. I must admit though that it is a case of "I have never tried it therefore I have no use for it."

An 8 frame medium single makes a dandy nuc - so not only do I only have one size frame, for the most part I only need one size box, cover, bottom board, etc. That really reduces the pile of unused equipment.

I sold medium nucs this spring and could have sold 50 instead of the 25 I did sell. People might want what they want, but they will compromise when they need to for a good nuc. At least around here they will.

All that being said, if you go with deeps and shallows you will rarely have a need to lift a deep full of honey. Tried and true things get that way for a reason most of the time.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I started with a beginners kit... deeps and shallows. Years later when I decided one size would be better I went to all deeps. Then I decided that was too heavy and went to all mediums. Then I converted to all 8 frame mediums. In between I've had 12 frame deeps, 12 frame Dadant deeps, 22 frame deeps, 22 frame dadant deeps... I've done it all, and I'm happy with the eight frame mediums.


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## loghousebees (Jun 13, 2014)

I have seen "Garden hives" that appear to be 5 frame medium nuc boxes stacked with a gable roof. Would this work for a smaller person? The boxes wouldn't be heavy at all and do the bees really care about the dimensions of the cavity that they inhabit?


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## SpringGreen (Jun 26, 2014)

I have all 8 frame mediums, and I'm not unhappy with it. I can pick up any box easily, where a deep brood box would be hard for me, like to reverse in spring. 

The biggest hassle for me has actually been getting more compatible equipment easily and quickly. The place with the most 8 frame medium equipment, like nuc boxes, is Brushy Mountain, and if I'm in a bind, it's painful waiting for them to ship my order. I already discovered the hard way that I'm no good at building my own boxes from scratch.

Most people only have deep nucs for sale, so I see a nice niche not being filled myself...


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## ukewarrior (Jul 4, 2013)

I run all 8 frame mediums and when the supers fill up with honey, I realize it was a very good decision.
Other than some up front cost, I know of no downsides.
But, the biggest reason for me is the weight. Even an 8 frame medium full of honey can weigh 35 pounds.
Try to lift THAT off of a 6 box high hive, in the heat, in your bee suit, with gloves on while a couple thousand bees are buzzing around your head.
I know a vendor that sells 8 frame mediums, unassembled, for $5, cash and carry. 
Mediums are a no brainer for me.
I think 8 frame is the way to go because it creates a more 'vertical' hive.

Now... if I was a commercial beek... which I am not.... this would probably all change to 10 frame, but still mediums.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

loghousebees said:


> I have seen "Garden hives" that appear to be 5 frame medium nuc box Would this work for a smaller person?


Yes garden hives work well for people who don't like to lift heavy boxes, but, they require intensive management to prevent swarming, and to harvest as the honey is capped. They are basically for just what they say, "Garden ". 

They also require some method to keep them from toppling over. I used 2 steel posts, on on each side of the stack in the middle to keep them from blowing over.

A few years ago I sold several. They were 2, deep, 5 frame nucs with 2 shallow 5 frame nucs on them. If you like to harvest your honey as it is produced they work well. Harvest it as comb honey or crush and strain.

To prevent swarming you can continually make nucs as they fill the brood nest area.

cchoganjr


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I have had the opportunity to remove bees form a pillar. this would be almost an exact match for size and shape of a lang hive. Very near the same time I did a cut out from a chimney in the space surrounding the fire box. This would be an almost exact match for a 5 frame nuc stacked maybe 4 boxes tall. Both colonies seemed to be doing quite well and it was reported by both home owners that they had been in that location for at least two years. The differences where pretty much confined to what you would expect of bees in a smaller or larger space. Less honey less comb fewer bees and more frequent swarming from the smaller cavity. The small space swarmed just prior to us starting the cut out and was attempting to do so again during the cut out. The larger space showed no indication of swarming of any kind but had a much larger comb area and approx three times the bees.

In all it lead me to believe that the appropriate volume of a hive for a colony of bees undisturbed would be 4 deep boxes. These would build up to a massive population in the spring swarm including possibly multiple swarms and still retain a population large enough to fill that space with honey. I also consider a deep and a medium minimal space to overwinter a colony. If you do not have enough bees to decently fill that much space yo have trouble in the making.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Daniel Y.. Well said. I share your conclusions.

cchoganjr


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

JWChesnut said:


> I find queens lay a better pattern in deeps vs. mediums.


Ditto. 

I've seen deep frames out perform mediums every time. I have some colonies on mediums and find them non performing in comparison. I have a lot of hives and have given them every chance. It's not the bees or queens, I think it's the fact the queen has to move from frame to frame more often. Seems to disrupt the laying momentum.
Some may disagree. It's just been my experience. 
I also like the interior frame feeders. As far as I know, those only come in deep size.

If a deep is too heavy, I just take out a few frames first before removing the box. Good technique is necessary to make heavy lifting manageable.

I use mostly 8 frame deeps. There are several reasons I use them. They are the _perfect _all around use size. Not too big for a nuc, not too small for a large colony. 










They can get tall with a larger colony,but most people kind of dig that, LOL.










But think about it. When comparing 8 & 10 frame deeps. 
5 high 10 frame deeps = 50 frames.
6 high 8 frame deeps =48 frames. No extra cost other than a single box.

Using a small ladder makes the taller hives easily accessable for me. My benches are also sturdy enough to stand on.

Although I don't try to get tall hives, I do get them quite frequently. I have _Never_ gotten a tall hive with mediums. But there are tons of folks that _love_ mediums. 
My post has probably been no help at all


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

MannLake has a medium frame feeder but it does not have a cap or ladder. Since I only use one of the ladders for every frame feeder I own having extra ladders is not a problem. Making caps is fairly easy to do and the band are just o=rings. What i don't like is they cost more than a the deep feeders do and they are smooth wall.

Item # FD-107 pg. 46 of the 2014 catalog.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I make my own medium depth "frame feeders". They're easier to make than frames, and they're my favorite feeders. So, a lack of commercially produced frame feeders is not a con for my own use of 8-frame medium equipment. I prefer my homemade frame feeders over any of the commercially produced models.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

I have a mix of 1 deep, 2 deep, 2 med and 3 med. It likely isn't a problem in your area, but in my area the available nuc's are on deep frames. This means cutting them down, shimming, etc which is a pain. I find tall worse than heavy. Lifting any box full of honey above chest height is tough and I am 6'2". 8 frame hives of either type always seem to end up tall. Having different sized frames for brood versus honey eliminates the risk of a frame of sugar feed getting mixed in the with the honey. Looking through more frames to find the queen is a pain too. As others have mentioned, more boxes and frames cost money. Mediums are cheaper than deeps, but not by a lot.

I do think that 2 mediums is a good size from a brood perspective. In a single deep with queen excluder on top, they often leave a half moon shaped area free of honey in the super directly above which indicates they would like the queen to be able to lay there. I don't see this with two mediums.

Its hard to beat the weight of mediums.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Joseph, I'd like to see a photo of your home made feeder, if you have one available.
Thanks.


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## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

Nice pics of the stained hive boxes. At first glance the knot patterns looked like bugs, one resembling a large roach another large flies. 

I have been reading these replies and considering the information in them as well as other threads. I am leaning toward the all mediums going forward. It seems in many threads, that simply moving some frames would be a solution if they were all the same and this has leaned me in the medium direction.

Also, using a ladder is not an option. My hives are going to be on very slanted hill side ground. (think 45 degree angles at points). I have to carry a grub hoe with me to make a place flat enough to put a couple of cinder blocks on for each hive. I use a wheel barrow for moving things about because I can self level it as I move over rough terrain. 

I also see myself pulling honey several times a year and not letting things get tall and between this and starting new colonies and rearranging frames of brood and giving them some honey etc, it seems like I will be better served by the smaller boxes. 

A serious concern is that I do not hurt my back with this hobby and I am willing to loose a bit of productivity for my own safety.

Thanks for all of the good responses.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I find tall worse than heavy.

Tall is a pain. Mine are all on 3 1/2" tall stands... not nearly so tall then.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

rolftonbees said:


> Also, using a ladder is not an option. My hives are going to be on very slanted hill side ground. (think 45 degree angles at points). I have to carry a grub hoe with me to make a place flat enough to put a couple of cinder blocks on for each hive. I use a wheel barrow for moving things about because I can self level it as I move over rough terrain.


Trying to work on a steep incline could get old...fast. I would go ahead and be working on leveling out a place behind the hives to stand while working the bees...and a place to set boxes to the side during inspections. Trying to work on an incline would tire me out quickly.

Since you're planning (best plans of mice...  ) on not letting your hives get very tall you could build long stands so that you can set two or three hives on each one and leave enough space between them to set boxes on as you work. Some 4x4 posts across your cinder blocks would probably make for a pretty good stand. Just a thought...

Best wishes,
Ed


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"what other info should I consider before deciding?"
I build my own eight frame medium equipment from cedar. Eight inch cedar for medium boxes is cheaper and easier to locate than ten inch. Eight frame boxes more closely approximate typical space in a tree hollow. Eight frame medium boxes are lighter and more fun to work. A new frame can be put anywhere, and undrawn frames can be moved around as needed. In the end, the choice is very person specific based on what you want to lift and carry and what you want in terms of convenience.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

How does 8 frame mediums more closely approximate typical space in a hollow tree. What if the hollow is 3 feet in diameter. Or, what if the hollow is only 8 inches in diameter. Neither of those trees would approximate the width of an eight frame medium. 

Five, eight frame medium boxes, will not necessarily, approximate the height of a hollow tree, if the hollow is 20 feet long (tall) or if the hollow is only 15 inches long (tall) and the diameter is 4 feet.

Are you basing your decision on lighter and more fun, or, the myriad of reasons to use, or not to use, 10 frame deeps and shallows? Consider all the benefits, and drawbacks, then make your decision. 

It will come down to personal preference. What you like. I like square hives. More frames per box, far fewer boxes, (13 frames per box versus 8 frames per box) One square box will give you 13 frames in the brood nest and will only be one box high for your brood nest. Two medium 6 frame boxes will give you 16 frames, but, you have to lift one 8 frame box off to inspect the bottom brood nest. In a square hive you don't lift any off to inspect brood nest until you put honey supers on.

If you super a square hive, and you don't want to lift the 13 frames, you can remove 5 frames and then lift the square hive off and you are lifting the same weight (except for the 1/2 to 3/4 pound difference in the two boxes ). With 13 frames in the super, when inspecting for honey you won't have to lift the super off to inspect like you will using two, 8 frame medium honey supers.

Square hives are more stable, more wind resistant, because they are wider than 8 frame hives, much the same as an 8 frame medium is more wind resistant than a five frame box.

It all comes down to what you want to do, and how you want to do it. Weigh your options, then decide.

cchoganjr


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

FYI-example of hollow tree hive space:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1u1PMZsDtA


And yes, We got the queen!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Lauri... I just gave your video 3 more hits. ( I watched it 3 times) HA!!!

While it is difficult to get perspective as to length, width of the comb in the tree, after watching it 3 times and trying to draw conclusions from the height of the people (which is just a guess) the size of their arms/ legs ,(again just a guess) the size of the smoker (more reliable because lots of smokers are standard diameter, it appears to me that, that colony would more closely resemble a 5 frame nuc. ( roughly 20 X 9.) than a medium box. 

Is my estimate off??? Thanks.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Laauri... I am curious... What kind of tree is that? Is it redwood? Doesn't look like anything in KY or FLA.

Looks like a GREAT job for a tree cutout. Always good to get the queen.


cchoganjr


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

It's a big old growth cedar a neighbor cut down while logging his place. Only after it was down did he notic it had a hive in it. Heres how it looked partially collected:










I got out as much comb as I could then just brushed/shook the bees onto the ground. Let them march right into the cardboard nuc.










Queen here:










Modified frames I use for cut outs. Cage wire stapled on to the bottom and zip tie on top when they are filled.











I'd say the actual _available_ size of the tree interior is about the size of 6 half sized deep frames like these. Comb was about 7-10 feet long. Tall and skinny!











That colony overwintered very well and quickly grew to fill up 4 deeps in 10 frame equipment. Here's the bottom deep in a June inspection:


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"How does 8 frame mediums more closely approximate typical space in a hollow tree."
The horizontal cross section of tree hollows that contain beehives that we have seen here run closer in size to the internal footprint of an eight frame box than to a ten frame. That also seems to be what I recall seeing in online images and videos from others on YouTube. That is partly local and all anecdotal. Honey bees certainly adapted and still live in environments with, among other things, larger old growth timber than what I see here and are in any event, according to Tom Seeley, more concerned about volume than shape. So your point that that is not a basis for picking a style of beehive is well taken. Cheers.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Lauri - Four 10 frame deeps, is that brood space or brood and honey. Just curious


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Rolfton - I'll not veer too far from JWC or Lauri - I have been trying to phase out my deeps in favor of the 6 5/8" medium 10-framers, but I do notice the superior brood laying pattern in the deeps, and will likely keep them for queen rearing. 

As I also produce honey-in-the-comb, I also have 4 7/8" comb shallows. With my bees in my yard, they DO fill out 4 7/8" comb supers more completely and more often than 5 11/16" shallows or 6 5/8" medium, AKA "Illinois" supers, no matter how I stack them. 

I may well abandon my hope of going all-one-frame-size, but the deeps will likely only be on breeder and queen cell finisher colonies, as I have the timing of my queen calendar worked out around this size of combs. The super-shallows will likely always see 1 or 2 cycles of honey-in-the-comb action in the spring.

That said, my guess is that you, being petite, probably ought to go with the 6 5/8" medium 8-frame boxes (usually about 41 lbs., max.) Incidently, medium 10-framers max out about 51 lbs., 8-frame deeps max out about 82 lbs., 10-frame deeps about 92 lbs, though all 10 frames packed solid with capped honey could go 95 lbs.+) 

You'll only rarely deal with maximum weights, but you do feel them after a long day of pulling honey when it's multiple deep 10's on top of tall hives in an orange orchard in the peak of the flow. That is why I'd recommend you getting the 8-frame mediums, 40 lbs is a lot easier to endure than the 90 pounders in the honey months.

Unless you focus on industrial scale-queen rearing and/or comb honey, the only drawbacks for you are likely to be the additional cost and that a 4-box-tall colony made of 10-frame deeps (38 1/2" tall) will show up as 6 or 7 medium boxes tall (39 3/4" and 46 3/8" tall, respectively). They make ladders, Hollywood-type apple boxes, or stools if you are exceptionally "vertically challenged" (short), and you could build a "super horse" - a saw horse built a bit wide for holding supers while working a hive - and make sure the height is convenient for you. 

I hope this helps, good luck to you.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Riverderwent... Understand. Thanks. 

In my area, our hollow trees, are predominately oak, sassafras, or poplar, sometimes (ceder) and are typically cavities that are much, much, larger than even a 10 frame hive. When our oaks and poplars get to be 4 to 6 feet in diameter they quite often start to hollow out and it is often difficult to know that they are hollow until cut by loggers or property owners. More often than not, these cavities will be 3 to 5 feet in diameter. And like you said, they may be 10 to 15 fool combs. (maybe it was Lauri that said that).

Thanks. 

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

kilocharlie... I agree with your post. I stay with 10 framers, and square hives (13 frames) because I have always had them, and I don't believe the wider, heavier, boxes will get blown over or off the stands as badly as a lighter, more narrow box. (*I do not have data on this, it would just seem to make sense.) Several years ago when I sold a lot of "garden hives" (which are nothing but 5 frame nucs with honey supers on them), they are so narrow as to easily blow off the stands unless they are secured some way. I used steel posts, driven in the ground, one on each side to make it difficult to blow off the stands. We get a lot of wind in March and April each year. 









And yes, even 10 framers do get blown off stands.

cchoganjr


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"And yes, even 10 framers do get blown off stands."
Wow. That was some picture and must have been some wind. Really, we over complicate these choices when what configuration we choose is just not as important as picking a reasonable size and system and sticking with it. Judging from Langstroth's comments about all the money he (and others) spent on worthless patent hives, we have it easy.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

At 67, I am not as buff as I once was. The deeps are very hard for me to move. I usually put a new deep box in my work area and move a frame at the time. If I am going to have to move the boxes for a long distance, I just leave 5 frames in each box and recombine them. I use mediums for supers, but I still move a frame at a time and use fewer frames while moving the box.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

People can argue forever the finer points of deep vs medium frames, 8-frame vs 10-frame, etc., but IMHO: 

"_I am a petite female and will be moving hives myself at times._"

means 8-frame mediums.


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

Related newbie question: As I understand it, one reason to go with all Medium is to be able to move frames between boxes. Also, if one uses 9 frames in a 10 frame super they draw out deeper comb. Does this nullify the advantage of being able to move frames? Will the bees reform the comb? Or, is this never really done except to get them to start drawing a frame so you can move it up?


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