# Why foundationless? Newbie questions



## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Many reasons to go foundation less, primary reason is that the pool of foundation is polluted with chemicals that, even in very small quantities, can affect brood and bees. Beekeepers try to minimize the impact of chemicals by rotating out older comb (a frame of two at a time) every year to remove these chemicals and start new comb. See Michael Bush's site for info regarding the many other benefits of going foundation less and search BS for threads addressing the benefits of foundation less frames.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

I did it because it was one less thing to buy. i built my own hive parts and frames. 

btw a pound of wax is a lot of frames. not sure how many but pick up an empty drawn frame and it is not very heavy.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I have looked and looked for the studies that show the amount of chemical in wax foundations, and I have not been able to find any that actually say that the larvae are damaged by using foundations. In 2005 I spoke with a speaker at the Missouri State Beekeepers Association meeting in KC and asked if there was evidence that foundations were detrimental to larvae development and the answer was no, there is no evidence that damage occurs. I have seen a study that showed that any chemical in wax foundations was reduced by half in the drawing out process, although I can't find that study again.

Hundreds of beekeepers use foundations, either all wax or plastic coated with wax and have good success in brood rearing, if there was a danger it would have shown it's self long before now. If you are in an agricultural area the bees bring in chemicals and the comb will have contaminates just by being used in the hives. This will occur within the first month or two of use.

Some beekeepers speculate that "natural cell comb" will help in fighting varroa, but this is non-sense that is being pushed by the "small cell" group of beekeepers now that several studies have shown that small cell does not reduce varroa mite numbers in bee hives.

If you do not want to have the problem with "blowouts" when extracting, and want the simple approach to very well drawn brood comb, use the plastic insert foundation for wooden frames. If the plastic is used in a strong colony it is drawn rapidly and accurately, just as is pure wax foundation. The all plastic frame/foundation have too many places for the hive beetles to escape the bees and the deep frames are prone to warping.


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

I am not sure about the chemicals but I am starting out this year foundationless. 

1 It does not hurt to limit any potential chemical risk.
2 One less thing to buy and install. OK we have chickens because I like the sound of 'cheep'.
3 I am wondering if making the bees produce wax will delay the urge to swarm.
4 I am not interested in a large amount of honey.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Foundationless can save you money, foundation can cost around $1 per frame plus shipping.

Let your bees make small/natural cells. May help with mites.

Bees can work foundationless frames when just a little nectar coming in, when they won't touch foundation or plastic which needs a strong flow.

They will draw foundationless faster than anything else.

You can open up the brood nest by adding an empty foundationless frame the bees will instantaneous see the addition room in the brood nest and reduce swarming urges, can't do that with an undrawn frame of foundation or plastic.

Draw backs are not as strong and can blow out in an extractor. Sometime the bees will build them crazy, can reduce this by putting them between two good frames of brood.


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

Agree with FlowerPlanter:thumbsup:


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

rolftonbees said:


> I am just curious what I am overlooking in the desire for foundationless beekeeping.


It depends on your climate and whether you are starting with packages or Nucs and whether you want a decent honey crop your first year. Packages here in the north do not do well on foundationless because package bees do not draw comb well. For my area I would recommend trying to buy some drawn comb from your bee supplier, for the brood nest. Even 4 frames of drawn comb will give the colony a better start because the queen can start laying as soon as she's released.
Colino


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I wonder do these beekeepers save the drawn comb when doing this. 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm#comb
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

>Do they only use foundationless for the honey supers. 

If they use foundation in one or the other of the brood or supers, they usually use foundationless in the brood. I use it everywhere.

>DO they make the bees create new brood comb also?

I don't understand the question. I don't make the bees do anything and I reuse all of the comb. I never remove brood comb and I extract and give them back the honey comb.

>What are advantages to foundationless. I can see it potentially being less contaminated, but would not using wire and cut come foundation from capping wax handle this consideration?

According to the research I heard presented by Roger Simonds in Asheville, NC on 11 August 2012 the amount of Fluvalinate, and Amitraz and Cumophos in a hive quickly evens out so that all the wax in the hive is contaminated. Using just cappings will not resolve the issue.

>I keep reading that it takes like 8 or 9 pounds of honey to create a single pound of wax. It would seem that if you make the bees make new wax each season, that you would be reducing your harvest a lot.

First, I don't make they make new wax each season. but I think (and so did many other great beekeepers) that they make wax whether they use it or not and the conversion rate is a bogus number for a lot of reasons.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesharvest.htm#expenseofwax

>I understand also that foundation less gives the bees the options of making different size cells. I would think the alternating of frames with some foundation missing would handle any need for additional drone cells. I have even seen where some cut plastic foundation with a hole saw for this purpose. Others cut a piece out between wires. 

But that is just more work...

>How does foundationless comb hold up to spinning. 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#extract

>I am guessing you would need a radial centrifuge. 

Why? In a tangential it would get some support. I only have a radial, but I know people who do foundationless and extract in a tangential.

>I am just curious what I am overlooking in the desire for foundationless beekeeping.

Hmmmm.... a lot?

Why do foundationless?

o Less work
o Less cost
o Clean wax
o Natural cell size


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

Rolftonbees you are looking for a valid reason or reasons to use foundationless. But I can't think of a reason why not to use it. I guess it is normal for us to think we can fix nature.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

1. The least amount of work is opening a box of pre-assembled frames with Rite Cell foundation and popping them into the hive. No frame gluing or nailing required. Now that's what I call less work, with nearly guaranteed results. Stuff is bulletproof too. 
2. In terms of cost, foundation is down in the noise of all the other costs associated in beekeeping. Consider local 5-frame nucs are going for around $150 each. Good frames and foundation will last a VERY long time, so any additional upfront cost will be amortized over many many years.
3. As pointed out, very likely that any foundation (purchased or produced by the bees) will get contaminated by the vast number of chems in our environment - particularly if you're around agriculture.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

The bees like it better and I'm au naturale anyway.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

Originally, small cell foundation was promoted as a varroa mite control method. Some people still do promote it for that. There are people who claim based on their own experience (i.e., no controlled studies or even meaningful surveys) that smaller cell sizes reduce varroa mite populations. There is actually a good deal of evidence from controlled studies that tends to disprove claims that small cell foundation does anything whatsoever to reduce varroa mites or improve hive survival.

At some point in the last 10 years, the notion got to be spread by the same people who were promoting small cell foundation that bees would be healthier if you used no foundation at all. The same people have asserted that this will reduce pollutants in the hive, because foundation contains pollutants. I have not seen any evidence from a controlled study or survey indicating that using no foundation has any effect of varroa mites or hive disease or survival. I also do not see any logical reason why using no foundation would have any such effect.

The positive effects of using no foundation would be to save money and time not buying and installing foundation. 

The downside for a new beekeeper is that you create potential for bees to build wonky comb or comb that crosses the topbars. Basically, you have the same potential issues that you would have starting a topbar hive. Everything could (and probably would) work out, but it is one more thing that can go wrong. I also think that, no matter what anybody says about the strength of the comb, comb built on foundation would be stronger and sturdier, which is a good thing while you learn to handle frames. You will also get more drones in a hive if you don't use foundation, and people can debate whether that matters until the cows come home.

In the grand scheme of things, this is something that beekeepers who get cooped up in snowstorms turn into a much bigger issue than it really is. People who assert that using foundation will poison your bees are basically full of boloney. People who claim that using natural comb (no foundation) will cure varroa mites are full of boloney. At the same time, traditional beekeepers who like their foundation are being alarmist when they suggest that something horrible is going to happen if you don't use foundation. 

What I actually recommend for a brand new beekeeper is this: Start out with wax foundation with vertical wires and hooks, use topbars with a wedge, bottom bars with a groove, and cross-wire every frame you have, even the supers. That is a tried and true method, and you will get sturdy comb. The bees will draw the wax foundation just fine (better than plastic) and you will avoid any risks of wonky comb or cross comb. After you get through your first year of beekeeping and get a store of drawn comb (which is an asset even more important than the bees in some respects) you can and should experiment, try new things, and learn. 

In the meantime, for the first year (or maybe two) just stick to the tried and true and focus on learning the basics of beekeeping. There's lots to learn, and all this stuff about cell size is at most a footnote to the real information you need to try to figure out during the first year.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

Building wonky comb.. if you have your hive level and you stay on top of it for the first bit then it does just fine. it is pretty sweet watching a tiny 3" piece become a full frame when they are jamming. you can start a 2nd hive as a 5 frame nuc just to build comb.. have them build a comb, steal it.. build one, steal it. 

the other upside to foundationless is being able to do crush/strain instead of having to buy another large and expensive piece that gets put in the garage most of the year. 

Really it is whatever you feel like doing for a hobbyist.. there are plenty of reasons for and against both. people are pretty set in their ways and will argue for theirs all day and night.

super wonky comb from 1st year hived swarm....


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

People have been doing movable comb for thousands of years in Greek basket hives and other types of hives. They have been doing foundationless from the beginning of beekeeping until now. Langstroth was using foundationless. Doolittle was doing foundationless. Miller, Dzierzon, Huber. Foundationless IS the tried and true method. Foundation was slow to catch on even after it was invented. It was a gimmick to have a product that needed to be bought periodically by the beekeeper.


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> People have been doing movable comb for thousands of years in Greek basket hives and other types of hives. They have been doing foundationless from the beginning of beekeeping until now. Langstroth was using foundationless. Doolittle was doing foundationless. Miller, Dzierzon, Huber. Foundationless IS the tried and true method. Foundation was slow to catch on even after it was invented. It was a gimmick to have a product that needed to be bought periodically by the beekeeper.


Well I can see where for a large outfit foundations would be both cheaper and easier. The see to be an install and forget type of thing.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

I am very new at this but i remember my grandfather talking about his bees although i never saw them because he was already retired, but he talked a lot about wiring the frames correctly and never ever about foundation, much less feeding. Today i talk to my Dad and he is baffled about the winter feeding, sounds so foreign to him. I believe foundationless is the way to go. I started with it because i want to be as natural as possible and i bet Grandpa will be mad if i use foundation. He is already mad about me feeding i bet, haha 



Michael Bush said:


> People have been doing movable comb for thousands of years in Greek basket hives and other types of hives. They have been doing foundationless from the beginning of beekeeping until now. Langstroth was using foundationless. Doolittle was doing foundationless. Miller, Dzierzon, Huber. Foundationless IS the tried and true method. Foundation was slow to catch on even after it was invented. It was a gimmick to have a product that needed to be bought periodically by the beekeeper.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

Michael, at least one of those people died before foundation was invented. I don't know whether the others had access to it and/or used it after it became available to them. 

I have a hard time accepting the notion that somebody invented foundation as a scam and beekeepers started using it because they are all too stupid to know its not necessary. I sort of think that commercial beekeepers are either smart or they don't stay commercial beekeepers very long. So far as I can tell, commercial beekeepers, who make their living with bees, nearly all use foundation. For the last 100 years or so, most beekeepers have been using foundation for the simple reason that it works. For that matter, you use foundation in at least part of your operation, since you talk about the Mann Lake all plastic frames that are 4.9. 

For all practical purposes, using foundation has been the norm for people who have had access to it for a very long time. As I said above, it's probably not going to be a bid problem if a new beekeeper decides not to use it. The bees surely don't have to have it. They probably would prefer not to. However, it provides some distinct advantages to the beekeeper. That's why I tell new beekeepers to use it, and I tell them to use all wax foundation with wires because the bees like it better and it results in very sturdy comb.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Both Doolittle and Miller started with foundationless frames, but when foundation had been improved to the point it was in the late 1890s and early 1900s, they used foundations in their section boxes for comb honey and in the brood frames in the brood nest. All a person has to do to see how their bee management evolved is read the old issues of American Bee Journal and Gleanings in Bee Culture, or their books. I have read most of the older writers, the ones that were well known as top men at their craft, and of those that were still alive and active in beekeeping after 1900, they all were using foundations. I see many posts that ignore information that is easy to get if a person bothers to read carefully the older books and magazines. I also see posts that are half-truths because they make true statements, but fail to continue to tell the "Rest of the Story," as Paul Harvey used to say.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have said this before: Kentucky Fried Chicken could not exist raising all their chickens free range. They are raised in gigantic warehouses cooped up in cages and fed by a conveyor belt. Same with pigs. Same with corn, same with almonds. It is called modern agriculture.

All worker foundation is the modern agriculture of beekeeping, it makes for a disproportionate to nature, amount of worker bees. More workers to work, less drones to consume stores and need care. The hive will produce more honey and produce more bees. The honey producer, pollinator and queen supplier are all benefited. 

It is not natural beekeeping. If you want that, go foundationless, go topbar, go Warre, go skep, go gum. If you want big easy production, use all worker foundation in frames.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Michael Bush said:


> It was a gimmick to have a product that needed to be bought periodically by the beekeeper.


You can say that about a vast majority of products invented by man: cars, washing machines, microwave ovens, chainsaws, tractors... 

These were probably also seen as "gimmicks", when first introduced. We evolve to improve our efficiency - foundation does this. If you don't want that level of efficiency then don't use it. Simple.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

Odfrank I agree with the gist of what you are saying, my foundationless bees produce what seems to be an over abundance of drones, and I have been concerned about the amount of stores they consume. but I disagree that foundation and the lower population of drones would be a benefit to the queen producer. I would think the abundance of drones caused by being foundationless would be an asset to the one producing well mated queens.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

A person can always selectively search up information to support an opinion. Many people are recorded saying things that they later changed their mind about or that simply didnt hold up to the test of time. Usually a comprehensive search will come up with quite well supported information to the contrary. 

Bees provide an opportunity to try many different interesting approaches but there are few absolute best answers for all conditions. From my experience I think mentoring somone getting going would be simpler if they went plastic foundation and wood frames and play with other things as they get comfortable.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

stan.vick said:


> I disagree that foundation and the lower population of drones would be a benefit to the queen producer. I would think the abundance of drones caused by being foundationless would be an asset to the one producing well mated queens.



At the risk of answering for someone else, I don't think he said or even implied that. Of course you want lots of drones when making queens, but if you're serious about breeding queens then you realize that you don't want EVERY colony in your operation making lots of drones. Instead you select your drone mother colonies just like you select your queen mother colonies. Your drone mother colonies are NOT restricted to worker foundation and are given lots of drone foundation, or foundationless frames so that they achieve your goal.


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## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

i use foundationless in my deeps but foundation in my supers. that way my frames dont fall apart in the extractor and i dont have to buy foundation in my deeps and the bees can make drones and everything all they want.


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

AstroBee said:


> At the risk of answering for someone else, I don't think he said or even implied that. Of course you want lots of drones when making queens, but if you're serious about breeding queens then you realize that you don't want EVERY colony in your operation making lots of drones. Instead you select your drone mother colonies just like you select your queen mother colonies. Your drone mother colonies are NOT restricted to worker foundation and are given lots of drone foundation, or foundationless frames so that they achieve your goal.


In your experience do your drone colonies fail to make a honey crop?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

sterling said:


> In your experience do your drone colonies fail to make a honey crop?


No they don't fail to make a crop, but its about proper technique. You let the drone mother lay drones and then let them cap the drone brood. These frames are then removed and placed elsewhere. Larry Connor likes to make up drone nucs that have some capped worker & drone brood with a caged virgin. Personally, that's too much trouble for me. I simply distribute the capped drones to all my various colonies that are on standard foundation.


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

AstroBee said:


> No they don't fail to make a crop, but its about proper technique. You let the drone mother lay drones and then let them cap the drone brood. These frames are then removed and placed elsewhere. Larry Connor likes to make up drone nucs that have some capped worker & drone brood with a caged virgin. Personally, that's too much trouble for me. I simply distribute the capped drones to all my various colonies that are on standard foundation.


Thanks for reply. So many beekeepers complain about the drones drag on a colony is why I ask. Sounds like a good way to deal with the need for drones.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm always amazed that people keep talking as if foundatinless is complicated and foundation is simple. To do foundationless, all you have to do is buy the type F frames from Walter T. Kelly and nail four pieces together. To do foundation, in addition to nailing the four pieces together you have to wire them, crimp the wires, insert the foundation, embed the wires and nail in the cleat. Here are the instructions:
http://www.beesource.com/resources/elements-of-beekeeping/frame-wiring-and-embedding/

All if this is in direct ADDITION to putting the four pieces of the frame together that is ALL that is required for foundationless. This is not to mention that you will need to buy a crimper, a foundation board, an embedder, an eyelet punch... yet people keep talking as if foundationless is complicated and foundation is simple...


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> I'm always amazed that people keep talking as if foundatinless is complicated and foundation is simple. To do foundationless, all you have to do is buy the type F frames from Walter T. Kelly and nail four pieces together. To do foundation, in addition to nailing the four pieces together you have to wire them, crimp the wires, insert the foundation, embed the wires and nail in the cleat. Here are the instructions:
> http://www.beesource.com/resources/elements-of-beekeeping/frame-wiring-and-embedding/
> 
> All if this is in direct ADDITION to putting the four pieces of the frame together that is ALL that is required for foundationless. This is not to mention that you will need to buy a crimper, a foundation board, an embedder, an eyelet punch... yet people keep talking as if foundationless is complicated and foundation is simple...


It al depends on how you look at it I guess. From what I read foundationless requires more care to ensure that the hive is level and the bees are drawing the comb where you want it. I intend to go foundationless. I have no intention of getting an extractor so foundation would seem to be a bother when using the crush and strain method. I also wonder if having to constantly replace the wax will reduce the swarming urge any.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

What's so amazing? Foundation_ is simple_. Installing foundation is just not a big deal, particularly if you are a new beekeeper with a few hives. This next Saturday, our bee club will host a build day. Some people who have never built anything will put together boxes, frames, and install wax foundation in their newly built frames. And most of them will like it. The ones who don't like it probably would not keep bees more than two years no matter what kind of foundation they use or don't use, but that's because beekeeping is not for everybody.

Installing the foundation is not the issue for me at all.

The issue, particularly for new beekeepers, is whether installing foundation reduces the potential for complications over the long term. My personal opinion is that it does, and that wax foundation (which is certainly the most trouble to install) over the longer term eliminates the most real problems. I guess I don't see the installation of wax foundation as a problem -- just a step. 

For a new beekeeper with no straight, drawn comb to act as a guide, going foundationless could create the problem of comb that is crooked or goes the wrong direction. 

Plastic foundation (based on my personal experience) sometimes gets ignored or drawn out funny. My experience with plastic is that they usually draw it out fine if there is a good nectar flow. However, my experience living where I live is that new beekeepers may get nucs in mid-May, and the nectar flow may end sometime in June. I can feed bees syrup in lat June, and they will draw wax better than plastic. That may not be the case in places with better weather. However, any new beekeeper who lives in a place with hot summers may really appreciate wax foundation over plastic. 

Wax foundation takes more time to install. However, it's not a bad time. I get my kids involved in embedding the wire. (What's more fun than creating an electrical short when you are 11 years old?) Of most importance for the new beekeeper, once you get wax foundation installed it's basically foolproof. I've never had any subsequent problems of any sort. Bees draw it, and you end up with straight, strong comb that lasts a long time if you don't let wax moths eat it up. So using wax foundation, in my personal opinion, includes some additional initial steps but gets rid of problems and is the best method for a newbee (and for more experienced beekeepers who have the time to do it). 

As some have mentioned, I think foundation reduces the number of drones, which I personally think is a good thing but others may not agree.

I just can't see any downsides for new beekeepers installing wax foundation in their hives, and its what I recommend.


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## wild-b (Apr 23, 2014)

Last year was my first year of beekeeping and I bought 3 hives and packages. Put in a bunch of plasticell foundation and they were slow to draw them out, but eventually they did. I threw in a bunch of wedge top frames that I cut the wedge off and turned it on edge glued and nailed it and they drew out those in about half the time and as pretty as can be. I didn't make a big fuss on how level the hive was I just tilted it forward so it wouldn't hold water and eyed the rest. Close counts and foundationless is cheaper and less time consuming and so far everything is fine. I going with about 50 % foundationless this year and working my way to total foundationless on 15 colonies.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

"The beauty of having good, nice straight combs to manipulate, and a scarcity of drone combs, is an item of the gravest importance to me." T. P. Robinson, Bartlett, Texas, October 28, 1907. This is from a letter to Gleanings in Bee Culture praising the use of foundation.


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## Sovek (Apr 27, 2014)

Second year beek here, my first year I got a recently hived swarm that had started to build and had some drawn comb. Of course the guy I bought the colony from had foundation, AND wires. Looking back, I should have ripped out the foundation, gone to lowes to get some cove moulding and done that. Let me tell you, Bees refuse to use foundation if it can be helped, and they drew out those empty bars far better than the foundation. Not to mention when the time came to move them to their bigger TBH, those wires caused me no end of trouble. If it wasnt for the 24" long Top Bars, every single comb in my hive would have been straight, even with 1 1/2" bars. Due to the width of the hive (24") the ends started curving, but not enough to cause cross-crombing. Even when that did happen, I caught it before it came an issue.

I agree with MB, Foundationless frames ARE easy if you are actually going out to your hive and doing your job as beekeeper. If you want to leave your hive alone for a month or more during a buildup where foundation would help, I seriously think you need to re-think being a beekeeper.


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## spreerider (Jun 23, 2013)

I found that when i used all foundation the bees would build cross comb and burr comb everywhere and fill them with drone, once i stopped putting in foundation in the deeps and let them build drone i ended up with the same amount of drones but will a lot less hassle for me getting frames in and out. most of my hives make good straight comb but i have had a couple where i cut it out and made them try again.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>It al depends on how you look at it I guess. From what I read foundationless requires more care to ensure that the hive is level

Your hive should be level anyway. If it's leaning, the weight is on the side it's leaning towards which tends to make it lean more and it's a vicious circle that ends with a hive tipping...

> and the bees are drawing the comb where you want it. 

I've had as much problem with them building it where I don't want it with foundation... 

>I intend to go foundationless. I have no intention of getting an extractor so foundation would seem to be a bother when using the crush and strain method.

True, but if you like, you can also extract it, or cut it for cut comb etc.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Because I said so!!!!      

http://youtu.be/38SPvuWvVkc

I go into full detail this video.


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

Well , I'll be seeing what they prefer . I have ready frames in 3 configurations - 1/2 a sheet of foundation , full foundation , and several with a 1/8" x 5/8" strip of wood inserted into the grooved top bar . These are all mediums , intended for honey production . I also have several frames for my brood <I use deeps> boxes that have half-sheets, but that's intended to encourage drone brood . I'll also be making deep frames with just the strip at the top . Hey , I'd love to save 10-12 bucks a box by not buying foundation . My intent to sell cut comb honey has influenced my decision to experiment . Tourists go for "local comb honey" from what I've heard .


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

spreerider said:


> i use foundationless in my deeps but foundation in my supers. that way my frames dont fall apart in the extractor and i dont have to buy foundation in my deeps and the bees can make drones and everything all they want.


A lot of us extract foundationless mediums without any problems.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Ross said:


> A lot of us extract foundationless mediums without any problems.


Do you wire them or no support? I read Bush sure that if the for sides are attached is ok to spin.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

i don't wire. If three sides are attached I spin it.


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