# How Long Does it Take Before Bees are Feral?



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I've seen this discussed a few times, I'm wondering what the feel is of the beekeepers here.

Assuming honeybees are not a native species, how long does it take for an escaped colony to be considered truly feral?


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

IMO, colonies of bees that have been kept for thousands of generations are all "feral". There is no difference between colonies in hives and in trees. Bees are not like cats and dogs that can be domesticated and that interact with humans.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If a colony swarms and that swarm take up residence in a stack of honey supers, is it a feral colony?

If it takes up residence in a hollow tree, is it feral?

If it lives two years in my equipment unattended, is it feral?

In the tree two years, feral?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Well, sorry I didn't think of that one. I guess it would be pretty close to the first option.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

before and after its the same bee. anyone that has domesticated bees is just on a ego trip.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

This is just great. All good answers, but none of them on the poll. :scratch:


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

maybe there is something the matter with the poll??


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

The pollster would be my guess. :shhhh:


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

every question on the poll suggests there is a difference between bees in a hive and others considered feral. most responses say they are the same. go figure??


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I was undecided between two and three. I chose three. I wouldn't consider a marked queen to be feral.

That being said, I don't believe bees are domesticated. They are legally wild animals. Any swarm you find, you can keep. Can't do the same with other 'livestock.'

At any rate, I'll take any swarm or colony I can get. I don't treat, so by that definition, all mine are feral anyway.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No, they are untreated managed colonies.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Fair enough. I can't disagree with that. I was referring to the number two option, that they'd been out long enough to die of something normally treated for.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

A cat that completely fends for itself in the wilds of suburbia or a city is considered feral. If it's cared for by a human, and just kills an occasional shrew it's not. If it hangs out and eats your food sometimes, and then goes missing for long periods it's more like a college buddy.

I'd say bees are feral as soon as they move into their own place, but I said after 2 years because I suspect that you really meant successfully feral. I figure that it means that they have the ability to survive without human aid indefinately. A paint spot has nothing to do with that. Unmanaged would probably be a better way to put it.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I can't answer: A field bee leaves the hive every day and isn't feral... 

My option would be that the minute nobody can honestly say "that colony belongs to X " They are feral.

A feral organism is one that has changed from being domesticated to being wild or untamed.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Like a College Sophomore? Or are they simply being kept in a distant zoo?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

When I was a sophomore the University never had any problems locating who I belonged to.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have a bait hive site in San Jose, CA that brought in 10 swarms in 2010 and 13 swarms in 2011. San Jose is similar to Los Angeles, highly developed. The site, in a trailer park, is within range of some native land where there could be bee trees, but is also surrounded by hundreds of square miles of suburbia in which there are hundreds of beekeepers. Some swarms were clearly "hybrid", yellow, quiet, friendly. Others were dark, more runny, more "feral", to one that was outright vicious and wild. I think that what I am trying to say is that "feral" has something to do with genetics also, not just what the bees came out of and what they flew into. I had bees from Kelly 35 years ago, and bees from Koehnen just a few years back, that were yellow, very quiet on the comb, and not inclined to sting. I call these "hybrids". I have also had bees from "breeders" that were wild and mean. Now tell me what "feral" means.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

since were using cats as a comparison then a domesticated cat can be stroked and petted, it accepts you as part of its world, if you irritate it you will be scratched and or bitten as part of its defense mechanism. Now as for the bees, I have sit beside my hive and let field bees land on me, and I have used my finger to stroke their backs and they have shown no aggression toward me, however if I start doing things to there hive and irritate them then I can expect to be stung as part of their defense mechanism. Then I must have a domesticated hive, however I bought this hive over a year ago and the rotted box had to be pried from the ground, a swarm of bees had moved in and had been living in it for three or four years totally unattended and on their own. Folks I don't think there is such a thing as feral bees, if there was then you would have to have tame domesticated bees and quite frankly I don't see the difference, bees are bees....Bill


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's all semantics and what you want it to mean. Assuming by "feral" you mean they can survive on their own, they would have to survive at least one typical winter for me to consider them survivors. As far as really feral they would need to have regressed which would probably be a swarm of a swarm minimum and more likely a swarm of a swarm of a swarm before they are entirely on natural sized cells.

I would assume, that most people mean a creature that used to be domesticated but is surviving on its own without any help from people.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

If I hitch a ride on a train, is the train feral? If I harvest honey from bees, are they feral? This is just the flip side of the domestic thread. Bees don't fit into either category comfortably. They aren't domestic, they aren't wild, what are they? I submit that current semantics break down when describing the relationship of man with bees. Yes, I know I mixed metaphors.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

They're honey bees that came from Europe. Were they feral then? Who cares?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

If you trap a colony out of a tree... Would you call it a feral colony while it is in the tree?

I think most would regardless of whether it was there a week or decade. 

The bottom line is we don't know how long a colony can live on it's own... there is no way to measure that realistically, no way to monitor how many winters a feral colony dies out and was replaced by a new swarm. A colony can be in a tree for as long as anybody could remember, but the bees there when you place the cone on the tree may have only lived there since they swarmed in yesterday.


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

May be that we have too many definitions of "feral"?
Websters---fe-ral--1. untamed; wild 2. savage; brutal

Lions and Tigers are kept in manmade containments, but I would be "careful" calling them tame and domesticated. Would you trust one of them with your children or grandchildren?

Lots of questions ????


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

When I go into the brood nest my Russians go wild.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I am of the opinion, like some others have already mentioned in this thread:

Honey bees are "wild" animals, there are no truly "domestic" honey bees. In this sense, all honey bees are "feral", wild, untamed, creatures. Similar to other wild animals usually kept in a zoo, such as lions and tigers.

Honey bees have been used by humans for perhaps three thousand years, or even more, and they've been around for three million years, more or less. In all that time, honey bees have, most likely, changed very little. They certainly can't truly be considered tame/domesticated, like canine or feline animals kept as household pets.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WG Bee Farm said:


> Would you trust one of them with your children or grandchildren?


 Yours maybe, but not mine. 

Sorry, couldn't resist. Not that I tried very hard.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I here by declare the term "Feral" as obsolete.

The official new phrase is now "Rogue Bees".


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

And you're the official?


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Sol, if the bees are feral when we stick them in a manmade box, skep, boxhive, log, top bar hive, langstroth ect.....Why would that change their nature?? Really the bees could care less about what they are living in. As long as it is 40 liters in size, protected from the elements, and plenty of food resources near by. Home is where their honey is......We like to think we have domesticated the bee but all we have done is given them temporary lodging and manipulated them into doing our bidding. TED


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Ted, Your point is one reason I don't consider any bees Domesticated. They are not dependent on our care for their survival. The difference that accours when they are stuck in a man made box is that they then have the aid of man to survive. Needed or not it is an advantage. This advantage can allow them to out produce and out preform any other colony. This could be considered an unfair advantage. Suppose due to this added strength they then begin to rob every feral colony within a 5 mile radius? In this case the issue of feral and Domestic is the tipping point if it exists that domestic bees cause feral bees to me reduced or eliminated. I have seen an issue of this sort concerning keeping cats as pets brought up to the point that certain people want it to be illegal to keep cats as pets.
Suppose one day they try to limit the size your hives can be? Just an example of the craziness that can happen. What about when someone puts these two ideas together and then blames beekeepers for the disappearance of feral hives? I am sure that is already happening but with different reasoning.
In a world of survival of the fittest mans assistance is a drastically unfair advantage. both to the competition and to the beneficiary. Thousands of people recognize and believe that.


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

If the bees are living in the walls of a building bees must be domesticated.And if bees are living in trees 
must be feral. :lpf::lpf:

I don't consider any bees Domesticated. 
So I can not vote in the poll  
Just my $0.02
BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> Suppose due to this added strength they then begin to rob every feral colony within a 5 mile radius? In this case the issue of feral and Domestic is the tipping point if it exists that domestic bees cause feral bees to me reduced or eliminated.
> 
> Suppose one day they try to limit the size your hives can be? Just an example of the craziness that can happen. What about when someone puts these two ideas together and then blames beekeepers for the disappearance of feral hives? I am sure that is already happening but with different reasoning.
> 
> In a world of survival of the fittest mans assistance is a drastically unfair advantage. both to the competition and to the beneficiary. Thousands of people recognize and believe that.


That's a lot of supposing.

A. It doesn't happen that managed colonies rob bee trees anymore than they rob each other. Robbing doesn't occur because of the way bees are managed or not, but because of the condition a colony finds itself in which makes it vulnerable to robbing by other bees. These conditions of weakness, lack of colony population strong enuf to repel robbers, include queenlessness and diseases.

What causes feral bees to decline is the same things which cause managed colony decline, diseases and pests. Specifically tracheal mites, varroa mites and associated viruses and diseases like AFB.

2. "Suppose one day they try to limit the size your hives can be?" Huh? Who? Who are they? This seems far fetched. Todays State Governments can't even afford to locate anywhere near all the hives in any one State, let alone inspect them for disease. So how is size limitation by "they" going to have any sort of impact on beekeepers? I just don't see it.

C. I don't know what survival of the most fit has to do w/ a feral/nonferal discussion. We do not live in prehistoric times, when survival of the most fit may have been the rule of the day. Today survival of the most fit includes smartness. How does how we manage beehives become "a drastically unfair advantage, both to the competition and to the benficiary."?

Maybe I am blind to it, but I don't see any competition between feral colonies of apis mellifera and managed colonies of apis mellifera. Show me.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Jim 134 said:


> I don't consider any bees Domesticated.


Neither do I. Feral and domesticated are not opposites. I don't see how you can come to that conclusion since the question does not use the word 'domesticated.' The only appearance of 'domesticated' is in one of the choices. Just don't vote for that choice.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Sol, if the bees are feral when we stick them in a manmade box, skep, boxhive, log, top bar hive, langstroth ect.....Why would that change their nature?


I didn't say it did. It's a poll. I'm asking people what they think. They don't even have to present their case. It's just a poll.


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Solomon Parker said:


> I didn't say it did. It's a poll. I'm asking people what they think. They don't even have to present their case. It's just a poll.





<There's no such thing as feral bees. Honeybees are all escaped from managed hives and they are domesticated animals.> 


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Solomon

I know you have talked about feeding sugar and such in the past on here... That makes your bees dependent on your care for survival, doesn't it?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Yep, sometimes.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

If man was no more, it would have little effect on the honeybee save possibly distribution. That says feral to me. Of course goats, cattle, hogs and horses could make it too so there goes my argument.


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## JRing (Jun 12, 2011)

Pigs can go "feral" once escape and will even change appearance over their life span, since we have domesticated them, there snout elongates allowing them to root more effectively. Other than changing there comb size, we haven't really altered them in the odd few years we humans have "kept" bees. Otherwise they wouldn't swarm, sting us, or we could train then, yes we have bred for traits, that just manipulation, and they'd do that on there own without us, we are nothing but moderators in the game of life.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Can anybody think of a case where we use the term feral and it doesn't apply to a domestic animal that went wild?
Feral Goats 
Feral Swine
Feral Horses
Feral Cattle
Feral Cats
Feral Dogs
Feral Bees


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

But, first you have to domesticate the animal and then allow it to go feral. I don't know if that has actually happened w/ honeybees. Not in the way it has w/ other mamallian animals. Which may be "the problem" here. What other insect have we domesticated?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Silk worms. The type used to make silk (Bombyx mori ) are unable to survive outside of human cultivation where as Bombyx mandarina is the wild uncultivated, undomesticated version. 

Dactylopius coccus is farmed for its die which is used in food coloring... they still exist outside of cultivation. 

Kerria lacca. has been cultivated all over the world for making both dies and shellac wood finish. 
There are about 28 other species of insects which are farmed.

Redworms are a domesticated species of earth worm which was bred and cultivated into existence... Earthworms are an introduced species to North America.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

The Variations of Animals under Domestication by Charles R Darwin. 1st edition 1868
Chapter 8 covers Honey Bees and Silk Moths.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

The last poll choice stated that the Bee was a domesticated animal, I am having a particular problem with this. Are bees animals or insects, my understanding is that they are insects. If they are animals then I would vote for the last choice, however if they are classified insects I cannot vote because the choice is wrongly stated. Can anyone else add any clairity to this.....Bill


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Insects are animals. I'm not sure what you are asking. You are an animal. So is a cow. So is a fish. Bees are animals and fall into the category of insects. As opposed to spiders, ticks and mites. Which are animals w/ a body, a head and eight legs.

Animals
Plants
Minerals


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

bluegrass said:


> Redworms are a domesticated species of earth worm which was bred and cultivated into existence.


I don't know where you're getting your information, but this statement is absolutely false.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenia_fetida

I have raised these worms for years. It is true that they are not native but they were not bred or cultivated into existence.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

WWW said:


> The last poll choice stated that the Bee was a domesticated animal, I am having a particular problem with this. Are bees animals or insects, my understanding is that they are insects. If they are animals then I would vote for the last choice, however if they are classified insects I cannot vote because the choice is wrongly stated. Can anyone else add any clairity to this.....Bill


:scratch:

It is living so it has to be Animal or Plant, like Sqk stated... Doesn't matter if it is a single cell organism or as complex as a human, if it is alive it is animal or plant.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

bluegrass said:


> It is living so it has to be Animal or Plant...


Not quite.

Living things are further divided by domains of which there are three, Prokaryotes (bacteria) Archaea (similar to bacteria) and Eukaryotes (all other living things, described as cells having a distinct nucleus and membrane bound organelles.)

Bees are Eukaryotes in the Animal kingdom in the phylum of arthropods (jointed legs), subphylum of hexapods (six legs), and finally the class of insects.

While generally correct, this view may be ever so slightly out of date. But you get the idea.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Solomon Parker said:


> I don't know where you're getting your information, but this statement is absolutely false.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenia_fetida


Not that I want to run this thread off of topic:

Source: Harnessing the Earthworm by Dr Thomas Barret: "A practical inquiry into soil building, soil conditioning, and plant nutrition through the action of earthworms, with instruction for the intensive propagation and use of domesticated earthworms in biological soil building."

Domestic Earthworms are breed to reproduce at a very rapid rate.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

You must have mistaken what he said. Redworms do not grow in soil.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Solomon

We might as well agree to disagree... I already know that if I delivered the voice of God as my source you would still deny it.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

There is no need to disagree on anything. The facts are the facts, God notwithstanding.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Thanks Solomon for the clairification on insects and animals, I will now add my vote to your poll.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I didn't really care at first but this conversation is getting interesting now. (Maybe because it's winter and I'm bored). After reading this thread I have come to the conclusion (for myself) that all bees are wild and feral. We have just created circumstances in different ways to keep them in pine boxes so we think by doing that, we have domesticated them. I thought that same thing until a couple of days ago.

I just simply added a super to one of my most gentle hives and was attacked like I have never been attacked before. Thank God I had my suit on. Pulled out over 10 stingers from it afterwards. After that I though about this thread. These bees are NOT domesticated, they are wild and can viciously protect their hive. They can leave it tomorrow and never come back and there is nothing I can do about it. They come and go as they please and it's doesn't matter if I feed them, treat them, add SBB's or make wind breaks for them. They're still wild undomesticated animals. 

I would like to change my vote!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WWW said:


> Thanks Solomon for the clairification on insects and animals, I will now add my vote to your poll.


Uh, yer welcome.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Don't be jealous Mark, you know it's because I can't ever just let anything be. :lpf:


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Charlie B

Domestic animals injure or kill people all the time.
Horses
Bulls
Dogs
Hogs
All kill and injure people every year...

By your new definition... Nothing is domesticated. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JORUUzpzvQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0xnKnUOndI&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL1181E8F8C83B8D52


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Sorry I neglected you Mark, just a slip, my thanks to you as well....Bill


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

The actual definition of 'domesticate' is "to adapt to live with humans."

Bees don't live with humans. They live in boxes or hollows. You can't teach them to come when called. They don't sleep at the foot of your bed. You can't ride them.

Perhaps the word 'tame' would be more appropriate, "accustomed to human contact." Even if that were the case, bees are still not inherently so since they mate in the wild.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> Don't be jealous Mark, you know it's because I can't ever just let anything be. :lpf:


Maybe he missed my Post? It boggles my mind that someone would question whether an insect is an animal or not. But, I guess I lack imagination sometimes.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WWW said:


> Sorry I neglected you Mark, just a slip, my thanks to you as well....Bill


Bill, no problem, just thought it was funny. Also, just curious. Whatelse would it be, if not an animal? You caught me off gaurd.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> bees are still not inherently so since they mate in the wild.


Shoot, I've done that. Does that make me undomesticated? Or, maybe my offspring would be. heh,heh


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I find people often mistake 'animal' for 'mammal.' I think it's just a simple mix up.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Mark, just the way I was raised I guess, back on the farm you had animals and insects, they were always seperate. I guess it is never to late to learn, but at my age ( 56 ) it seams that sometimes I forget faster then I learn....Bill


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Solomon Parker said:


> The actual definition of 'domesticate' is "to adapt to live with humans."


Solomon:

You are taking a single meaning of the word and applying it to your definition to make your argument correct in your head... Get out the dictionary and look it up, there are multiple meanings, ranging from a Servant to this one:

Domesticate: The process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of artificial selection, is changed at the genetic level, accentuating traits desired by humans. (Put traits in the search box for this forum and see how many threads you get about selecting for traits)

This definition is why bees are domesticated. And because they are domesticated, we refer to them as "feral" when they return to a wild state. 

For example: If I have a bunch of ants in an ant farm and they escape... they are not feral ants... because they were not domestic to begin with.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Let's not try to tell one another what's going on in the other's head.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Solomon Parker said:


> Let's not try to tell one another what's going on in the other's head.


That is all you got?
Checkmate.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WWW said:


> Mark, just the way I was raised I guess, ..., but at my age ( 56 ) it seams that sometimes I forget faster then I learn....Bill


Yeah, you youngsters are somethin'.  You got some catgchin' up to do to forget all the stuff I used to know, being 59 now. heh,heh

Did ya put insecticides on your animals? That might contribute to the idea that they aren't/weren't animals. Thanks.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

bluegrass said:


> This definition is why bees are domesticated. And because they are domesticated, we refer to them as "feral" when they return to a wild state.


Define "wild state", please. A state of wildness?

If my colony of bees swarms and takes up residence in a tree on my neighbors land and he finds them in the tree, are they feral, even though they have only left domesticated circumstances merely a week or two before? Or would they have to live in a state of wildness, ie unmanaged, for a certain period of time?


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Mark, if the animals had more than four legs they got sprayed lol.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Sqk
In my humble opinion, the minute they leave the hive and take up residence outside of the capacity of the Keeper to manage them, they are feral.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So then, feral doesn't mean special, does it?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Special? The majority no. I have run into some that have been something different. AMM would be my guess, or just really small bees from years of brooding in old brood combs.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The reason I used the word special is that people often think that because they came out of a tree or house they possess attributes other bees don't have.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Oh, so there are the, "live in the backwoods, mountain hollow, hillbilly bees that hum the theme from the movie deliverence" and then there are the "live on top of the five million dollar apartment that sits on the edge of central park, washboarding to the fifth of Beethoveen bees". Guys, I never realized untill today that there was such a distinction. Thank you for teaching me the difference between feral and domesticated bees. TED


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Guys, I never realized untill today that there was such a distinction. Thank you for teaching me the difference between feral and domesticated bees. TED


:lpf:


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> The reason I used the word special is that people often think that because they came out of a tree or house they possess attributes other bees don't have.


You buy enough package bees you will get some of exceptional quality, same is true if you capture enough ferals.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> You buy enough package bees you will get some of exceptional quality, same is true if you capture enough ferals.


They're both feral so that makes perfect sense.


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