# 120 bucks just flew away.



## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

by chance did the topbar hive have a screened bottom that was left open? We have found that an open bottom contributes to them leaving before they establish a colony.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Wah!
Ouch!


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

Did you go looking for your bees? They may have not gone far.
The combo of an un_lived_ in hive and a package of bees was a double Whammy.
Ideally the bees should have been in place long enough to build some comb before the queen was released.
If you could have hung some comb in the top bar that the queen could lay in they would have been more likely to stay.
If You know someone who does cutouts or that can provide some pieces of comb that you can install into the top bar to give the next residents a place that feels a little more like home.
Maybe your other colony will do well enough to make a split later on this year....


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## T_om (May 17, 2021)

Thanks for the replies folks.

First, no screened bottom, just a solid board.

Second, yep. Looked all over the property seeing if we could spot that mini-swarm. No luck.

Third, I thought about that. If I get another package (which is likely) I won't be so quick to pull the candy exit plug. I was very surprised they ate through that plug in one day this time. Maybe leaving it plugged for 3 or 4 days will be a better plan provided they keep feeding the queen in there.

Fourth, I didn't have any top bar comb available. Just top bars with waxed starter strip inserts. I'll get some additional comb next time and cobble it onto a couple of bars.

Third, a split might very well be possible as strong as that 8-frame is looking so far. I'm building another top bar hive as we speak. 

Live and learn. My Grandpa always said "people that need experience get it, one way or another".

Tom


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

What type of cage was the queen in? I've noticed a lot of candy allow the queens to be released very quickly! Instead, leave the cork or tape off the candy for 3 days, then remove cork/tape and let them do the rest. After about 3 days they will decide to stay. 24 hours, as you witness, not so much.

I did a test with my queen cage candy and get about 4 days. I tend to make it a little hard, but that's not always a bad thing.


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## T_om (May 17, 2021)

Queen was in one of the new style plastic "tube" queen cages. I dislike that but that is just my preference. The wood with wire screen ones are better IMHO.

And yes, I am not going to unplug the candy right away next time in this hive.

Tom


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

ruthiesbees said:


> by chance did the topbar hive have a screened bottom that was left open? We have found that an open bottom contributes to them leaving before they establish a colony.


LMAO


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

T_om said:


> Queen was in one of the new style plastic "tube" queen cages. I dislike that but that is just my preference. The wood with wire screen ones are better IMHO.
> 
> And yes, I am not going to unplug the candy right away next time in this hive.
> 
> Tom


I like the jzbz cages you're likely referencing. I think whoever made the queen candy for them likely did it too soft. They're the same ones I use and can get 5 day releases while making the candy a bit harder.

Now you know you leave the cap on for a few days...sorry that happened.


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## mill-j (10 mo ago)

T_om said:


> On Friday we (wife and I) purchased a nuc for my new 8 frame Langstroth (a gift from my daughter) and a package for my new Kenyan top bar. Drove down and picked them up in person.
> 
> Note to self: Make sure nuc lid is taped shut next time so the ride home is not accompanied by a couple of dozen confused bees that have never been acclimated to riding around in a Subaru Outback before buzzing around inside the vehicle. Wife took it surprisingly well. But I digress.
> 
> ...


Just a thought. Did you use a follower board properly? Like maybe 5 frames.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

T_om said:


> Fourth, I didn't have any top bar comb available. Just top bars with waxed starter strip inserts. I'll get some additional comb next time and cobble it onto a couple of bars.


so take a top bar or 2 to your lang hive.
you may need an additional piece of wood to screw to the top of the top bar. has to be of the length to fit in the Lang hive.
drop it into the middle of the nest, about 5-7 days before your package arrives.

On package day, gently shake the bees off, or soft brush them off, remove the temp top bar, set the frame into the TB hive and add the package. even 4 inches of comb would help, may have some eggs in it as well, all this will help the abscond issue.

also do you have a divider, squeeze them down to 5 or 6 bars, a tighter cavity can help. if the whole box is open , they may think, this is not a fit.

good luck next time.

GG


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## T_om (May 17, 2021)

I am going to move a top bar to my Lang today, thanks for the tip.

I had a follower board installed after ten 32mm bars with waxed starter strips (about an inch deep per bar) installed. I have never heard of squeezing the space down that small (5 bars). Having not had a top bar before, all the videos I looked at with folks installing packages had WAY more bars in place (some had the entire space open) than 5. I am still learning about this top bar management so I am brand new.

Tom


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## T_om (May 17, 2021)

OK, I modified a top bar and placed it in the Lang. On this particular top bar I did not have a full width starter strip, just a 4 inch 3dprinted one. On most of the other bars I had cut-down pre-waxed strips cut from a new Lang frame. On the frame I removed in order to get this one in, the bees were already starting a tiny bit of comb and were bearding off the bottom. It was a Lang frame with pre-waxed starter strip, not a full pre-waxed frame by the way. But the bees were doing great getting a comb started on it. All the other frames in the 8-frame Lang are full sized pre-waxed commercial stuff that came with the boxes.

At any rate, I'll see if the bees start building out on the modified top bar I dropped in there. Time will tell. These bees are very gentle. No protection needed while I did this, no stings no guard bees getting upset, etc. A bunch landed on my bare legs (wearing shorts, this is Florida after all  ) but decided there was nothing for them to worry about and left after a bit. I did spray the bees on top after opening the hive with a bit of sugar water spray. 

Speaking of sugar water, that hive is taking more than 2 liters a day. Wow. And we have a good nectar flow going now in NE Florida. Still TONS of pollen coming into the hive and they adjusted to the Guardian style entrance very quickly (3d printed also). 

Tom


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

It seems like you might be able to sacrifice a lang frame of drawn comb, trim as needed to hang in the top bar to get them started.
I have totes full of comb from cutouts I use in spots like this.
If you don't have any comb, Can you get some comb from another Beek?


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## T_om (May 17, 2021)

I can get some comb next Saturday, so I will attach some to a couple of bars and try that.

Tom


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

Remember if you are getting a package the bees need to associate with their new queen before you turn her loose.
I suspect your prior queen cage had just a marshmellow for candy.
So block in that queen for a couple days.
If it's not hot I think you can close up the hive to keep the girls in to set up house (fold a piece of screen and slide it into the entrance slot, spring tension will hold it in place).
Don't give them too much space, just a frame or two more than the comb they have hanging (frames of bees the cluster fills).
Limiting the space will steer the new comb making (help prevent any wild comb runs)
Limiting the space is cozyier, so they don't get chilled, balance this with not cramping them in.
Limiting the space will concentrate build energy on the empty frames and get them more fully built.
Some larger pieces of foundation hung of the top bars will make the space seem smaller (break up the open cavity) and give the bees a place to hang out until comb gets built.
Alternate foundation and empty frames to steer comb building.
Someone mentioned a divider board, Use It, a package only needs 5 or 6 frames of space. 
2 frames of honey 1 of pollen and 2 of brood, like you were putting together a nuc.
Hang some fondant. (Downside of a top bar is you cant feed from above.)
Sandwich a patty in some 1/2" screen and staple it to a bar.
Save the syrup til it gets warmer. Or only give them a very little at a time that has been pre-warmed.
Don't over-feed, the bugs will fill every avalable cell with syrup leaving the queen no place to lay.
I'd also put a cozy on the hive if you are still having freezing nights. Migratory bees might already have shorts on and sun screen out.


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## T_om (May 17, 2021)

Again, this is Florida. There is no chance of it being too cold.

And yes, I am not releasing the queen for about 4 days next time. From all I read and see suggested, I need to have about as much open space as I would have in a swarm trap. About nine or ten bars. Which is about what I had. The feeder was behind the follower board protruding into the hive space, so they did have access to feed. However, they didn't take much sugar water in their limited time in the hive, no idea why not. Only about half a quart over the couple of days.

Tom


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

The Swarm Trap Size is meant to be attractive to the scouts.
Initially they don't need a whole lot more space than the package.
I figure 2 packages space which is sorta 5 deep frames then an empty on each side at the most to start.
Breaking up a large space with some plastic foundation helps considerably and gives the bees a place to hang out.

I have found the 2 hardest things to get right as a new beek are over-feeding and too much space.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

T_om said:


> I am going to move a top bar to my Lang today, thanks for the tip.
> 
> I had a follower board installed after ten 32mm bars with waxed starter strips (about an inch deep per bar) installed. I have never heard of squeezing the space down that small (5 bars). Having not had a top bar before, all the videos I looked at with folks installing packages had WAY more bars in place (some had the entire space open) than 5. I am still learning about this top bar management so I am brand new.
> 
> Tom


sure give it a try, a built partially bar would help the package.
if the bar is close but short a couple 4 or 3 inch screws in each end as "extenders" would also work to hold it in the Lang for a few weeks.

I put 3 lb packages into 5 frame NUC boxes all the time, nice compact fit, and the first bee to hatch is 21 days, after queen release, so they are fine in the 5 frame box for a month.

GG


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## nimrodcole (Jan 7, 2022)

T_om said:


> On Friday we (wife and I) purchased a nuc for my new 8 frame Langstroth (a gift from my daughter) and a package for my new Kenyan top bar. Drove down and picked them up in person.
> 
> Note to self: Make sure nuc lid is taped shut next time so the ride home is not accompanied by a couple of dozen confused bees that have never been acclimated to riding around in a Subaru Outback before buzzing around inside the vehicle. Wife took it surprisingly well. But I digress.
> 
> ...


could have been worse-the swarm could have gone after you-had that happen more then one time-luckely I have heavy brush I hcan loose them in. Get a queen catcher and try to lure them back. I have got two swarms that way from my own hives spritting


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## thill (Nov 30, 2020)

T_om said:


> ... From all I read and see suggested, I need to have about as much open space as I would have in a swarm trap. About nine or ten bars...


A swarm trap has drawn frames. A package of bees is about the same as a nuc that comes in a 5 frame box, again with drawn frames.

Most would probably start a bee package in 5 or 6 frames, especially if empty, without even foundation. Too big of a box, and they don't feel secure. But if your Q cage had held for a few more days, it might have been different.

At least one colony took, so all is not lost. Congrats! That is a victory in itself.


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## T_om (May 17, 2021)

Yeah, the nuc is going great guns. I have now (two days ago) put two modified top bars in the 8-frame Lang that houses the nuc. Hopefully I will have at least a bit of comb on them by Saturday. At the very least they should smell better than bare starter strips even though my strips were wax coated.

I really think the queen getting free so quickly is what caused the absconding, along with perhaps too large a space with no comb. I will do things differently with the next package. If that fails, I'll try a split when the Lang gets to the point where it will support one. I'll keep at it.

Tom


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## Gold Star (May 18, 2008)

T_om said:


> On Friday we (wife and I) purchased a nuc for my new 8 frame Langstroth (a gift from my daughter) and a package for my new Kenyan top bar. Drove down and picked them up in person.
> 
> Note to self: Make sure nuc lid is taped shut next time so the ride home is not accompanied by a couple of dozen confused bees that have never been acclimated to riding around in a Subaru Outback before buzzing around inside the vehicle. Wife took it surprisingly well. But I digress.
> 
> ...


Tom,

You didn’t mention how much time elapsed between hiving the two. A bit more time between hiving them can make a difference.

If the Langstroth hive is looking surprisingly good, it has been known to happen that two hives in the same yard simply join up, especially early early after being hived.

So it could be that your Lang population is now double while your top bar population has gone to zero.

Tuppence.
— Christy


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

Something may have happened to his queen.
She may not have been well mated.
The bees may have rejected her.

The next batch of bees likely won't fly away from tom.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

agree Packages are not 100%
close

GG


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## T_om (May 17, 2021)

Gold Star said:


> Tom,
> 
> You didn’t mention how much time elapsed between hiving the two. A bit more time between hiving them can make a difference.
> 
> ...



Sorry, I thought I did mention there was no lapse. Both were picked up the same day and installed the same day. And I mentioned that I initially thought drift might have occurred but the queen cage was indeed empty and she and the entire package departed. As to the Lang, its population didn't explode to the level it would have if drift occured... I wish it had.  I have been into it since the absconding bees left and the population is still that of the original nuc install.

I'll try again as I just heard from the seller that he will replace the package for no cost! That is a very nice offer but I'm going to pay as it was NOT his fault... just something that happens from time to time I guess.

Tom


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## oldsap (May 1, 2016)

T_om said:


> I am going to move a top bar to my Lang today, thanks for the tip.
> 
> I had a follower board installed after ten 32mm bars with waxed starter strips (about an inch deep per bar) installed. I have never heard of squeezing the space down that small (5 bars). Having not had a top bar before, all the videos I looked at with folks installing packages had WAY more bars in place (some had the entire space open) than 5. I am still learning about this top bar management so I am brand new.
> 
> Tom


Youtube is a great and terrible thing. It seems everybody wants to be a Youtube star and the ones who really know bees are few and far between. Some of the members on Beesource are also on Youtube that I respect very much and watch myself. Others we use as an example of what not to do at monthly bee club meetings. Always think of why they are doing what they are doing while watching these videos.


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## T_om (May 17, 2021)

OK, going to try again today. I'll be leaving to pick up the replacement package in a bit.

Here's what I did:

I modified two top bars to fit into my 8-frame Lang. They were only in there a couple of days (one for 3, the other for 2) and the Lang bees drew out some beautiful dead straight comb. One on bar the comb was already 4 or 5 inches deep, on the other they had just started at the top (it was on the outside of the set of frames, my mistake, should have checkerboarded it closer to the inside). Anyway, both bars had propolis well adhered to them, so maybe that will add to the "new home smell" and help too. So I pulled those from the Lang and they are in the top bar hive now waiting until I can whack in the new bees.

Next, I am not pulling the candy plug on the queen cage. The last time they had her out in a day and I think that added to the absconding problem. The candy the package seller uses is pretty soft and released quickly. So I won't pull the plug and will leave her caged up for 3 to 4 days. Does that sound about right? I don't know the perils involved with leaving her in the cage longer so this will be a new one for me.

Feeder installed just like last time.

So there it is. Time will tell.

Tom


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

T_om said:


> OK, going to try again today. I'll be leaving to pick up the replacement package in a bit.
> 
> Here's what I did:
> 
> ...


sounds good go for it.
the fresh comb should help.
good trick.

GG


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## oldsap (May 1, 2016)

Sounds good. As long as the bees can feed the queen you don't need to release her fast.


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## T_om (May 17, 2021)

OK, here I go again. My wife and I picked up the new package today and the ride home was more pleasant because there weren't a dozen or two loose bees in the car accompanying us.

The photos show what the new setup is. There will be two feeders in the hive too.

I was really surprised at how much comb the 8-frame Lang bees developed in such a short time. I had to cut a big chunk off the side to fit the 60° side angle of the top bar hive and there was still a lot of comb.

I am going to wait until nearly dark this evening to get them in the hive. That was also suggested by a friend although no one here mentioned it.

The size of the hive is ten 32mm brood frames, which is not very large but is about equivalent to a swarm trap from what I can figure given the angled sides and depth of the hive.

I am not going to pull the candy plug for several days. The queen is in a plastic tube cage like last time, which I don't like, but that is what the seller uses. I am going to observe and see if they accept her (didn't really do that last time) before pulling the plug. If everything looks good in 4 days I will do a direct release if they are not trying to kill the queen.

That's the plan. Any suggestions, fire away.
















Tom


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## thill (Nov 30, 2020)

That looks good. Your plan sounds good, and I think you will have success.

FWIW, I carry one of those quad-jet butane cigar lighters with me. Great for lighting the smoker, but when cutting out comb, I run the lighter across the end of scraps and "hot glue" the piece wherever I want. Works GREAT. Good for those of us who don't have a lot of extra comb, so we can use every bit that we have.


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## T_om (May 17, 2021)

Well, it appears my new package is going to stay. I installed it on Saturday and double checked the queen was spry and moving around well in her cage with a couple of attendants. I did a bump and dump and goth the bees in. I suspended the queen between bars with the comb I showed in an earlier post and left her there until yesterday evening. That was the third day so I pulled the queen cage and the bees were obviously clustered around her and feeding her well. She and the attendants were fine so I direct released her and she went down into the hive. There was a lot of activity the rest of the day but I couldn't see that any forager bees were bringing in resources, so I was a bit worried.

However, this afternoon they are bringing in pollen, which I take to be a good sign of setting up housekeeping. And they have emptied two in-hive feeders in that time. When I checked this evening another feeder was almost empty so I will replace it tomorrow.

We are in a good nectar flow here in NE Florida so there are lots of resources available now.

Thanks for sticking around and offering advice for this saga. 

Tom


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## T_om (May 17, 2021)

Here's a shot of the activity a few minutes ago. It's 1bout 1730 so activity is winding down a bit from earlier. They took a quart of sugar water in less than a day so they are at least eating.

Didn't show up well in this photo but foragers are still bringing in pollen, although not nearly as much as is coming in the Langstroth installed from a nuc 10 days or so ago.

Tom


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

Is that an extension cord? Did you give them a night lite?


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## T_om (May 17, 2021)

Nope, just some single strand copper wire holding that EMT tubing on the steel fence post.

Tom


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

T_om said:


> Well, it appears my new package is going to stay. I installed it on Saturday and double checked the queen was spry and moving around well in her cage with a couple of attendants. I did a bump and dump and goth the bees in. I suspended the queen between bars with the comb I showed in an earlier post and left her there until yesterday evening. That was the third day so I pulled the queen cage and the bees were obviously clustered around her and feeding her well. She and the attendants were fine so I direct released her and she went down into the hive. There was a lot of activity the rest of the day but I couldn't see that any forager bees were bringing in resources, so I was a bit worried.
> 
> However, this afternoon they are bringing in pollen, which I take to be a good sign of setting up housekeeping. And they have emptied two in-hive feeders in that time. When I checked this evening another feeder was almost empty so I will replace it tomorrow.
> 
> ...


bringing pollen in, is good, they use it for brood, once they have brood they should stay put.
be careful tilting the new wax frames, handling top bar frames is best done with the comb perpendicular to the ground all the time, it can and will break off. may as well feed them until you see capped stores at the top of a couple frames.
it takes about 7 pounds of honey to make 1 pound of wax.

GG


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