# Apiary Expansion Economics



## NashBeek (Feb 15, 2008)

I built my hive bodies and supers and when you figure in the price of the wood and labor it's cheaper to buy them.


----------



## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Econ 101*

The best deals are usually on used stuff. Keep your money in your pocket & watch. Try to buy for 2 bits on the dollar. Or less. Or just wait!:thumbsup:


----------



## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

My advice, before you drive to Waverly, call them to make sure they have what you want. They've been out of solid bottom with groove frames for months! I was also only able to buy premium medium boxes (Illinois) last time, they were out of commercial. I am thinking of buying and paying the shipping from Kelly now.



chefbeek said:


> Hello all-
> After a fun filled sucessful first year I'm planning on increasing my hive count next year. (You tried to warn me....) I'd like to get to 20 next year. I'm going into winter with 12 in good shape. I was running numbers on equipment this morning and my eyes started to cross so I thought I'd put it to you.
> 
> I planned on building 20 deeps and 20 medium supers this winter. Last winter I made all of my equipment including frames because I had more time than money. This winter I will have slightly less time than money, so I ran numbers on making boxes vs. buying boxes, buying frames and foundation and doing all of the assembly. I can drive to Dadant in Waverly in about 1 1/2 hours so there would be no shipping, maybe $40 in gas. After running numbers it seems to make most sense if I buy everything and assemble it. I hate the thought of paying 13+$ for deeps when I can make them for $7, but then the time factors in. I'm on the fence.
> ...


----------



## J-Bees (Jul 12, 2008)

*premium* medium boxes (Illinois) last time, they were out of *commercial*"""""""

What's the difference??

Thanks JB:}


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

material cost would signicantly effect any choice. if you are only talking about your labor... then labor cost would be of less concern*. 

for myself I routinely pick up material for my boxes free. I buy wooden frames (unassembled) in quantity and save a good deal of money in that way.

my last advice is... build more boxes, tops and bottom and assemble more frames than you expect you will need. even if you make up 25% more of all the above you will ubdoubtly have some use for these and likely sooner than you think. more importantly, come spring* having one too many is always better than one too few....

*at least here in the spring things can get a bit hectic and a lot of jobs compete for a limited number of 'my' man hours so there may not be a direct labor cost, but their is an 'opportunity' cost associated with not getting some jobs done.


----------



## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Listen & Reread*

Ah, listen to Tecumseh speaking from experience. If you're not ahead you're behind. Very little middle ground!


----------



## bigbore (Feb 25, 2008)

I agree, I started out this past winter building 10 deeps, bought 100 frames to build, and purchased 2 packages in April.:doh: As of right now, all 10 deeps and the frames are in use. Now I am wondering if I can keep the increase in 20 deeps this year. I don't know if I can build enough durring winter to keep next year contained


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I know beekeepers in the St. Lawrence valley area buy assembled equipment from an Amish man. Used to be Dan Miller, but he sold the business. The prices are pretty good. You should check. Sqkcrk should be able to give you the contact.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Tom G. Laury said:


> If you're not ahead you're behind. )


Shoot, I'm so far behind, I think I'm ahead.


----------



## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Hot tips*

Just close one eye and squint REAL HARD with the other!


----------



## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Pretty soon it will look like you're ahead!


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Personally I like to buy it assembled and dipped ready to go. All I need to do is put it on the hives. I also put the order in early so I have the equipment at least 1 month before I think I may need it. Think about how much you lose if the bees swarm because the boxes you were building were not ready. That's when the $7 box becomes real expensive. The boxes still need frames and foundation. Overall I'd rather pay somebody who is set up properly to do this assembly work and spend my time beekeeping. The assembly and dipping cost is a fraction of the overall cost. Besides I think I'm a better beekeeper than a box and frame assembler.

Jean-Marc


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

mr laury sezs:
If you're not ahead you're behind.

tecumseh:
or as the red queen said... you got to run as hard as you can just to stay where you are.

jean-marc makes several good points. especially knowing how accomplished (or lack thereof) you are in doing wood work and assembly. for myslef the one job I would likely never wish to give up in regards to beekeeping is putting the wood wares together and installing foundation. I just like the smell in my little shop when I do those things.


----------



## WayneW (Jul 17, 2008)

I too find next to nothing more enjoyable than the time spent making boxes, cabinets, or just about anything to do with wood working. Nothing quite like the smell of fresh sawn pine. However, making even a mediocre quality frame is a daunting task. The "fits" to make them strong, and the numbers (10 per box) make it an "assembly line project". For frames i buy from Mr Kelley. Top quality and cheap in bulk, even with shipping they were less than some others wanted before shipping.


----------



## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

i dont make my own wood ware but i assemble new equipment and clean frames,etc on a sheet of plastic in the living room while im watching t.v. most all of us watch some t.v.-and its gonna be a long winter.


----------



## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I'm a hybrid when it comes to buying / building. I don't have the time I would like to build everything (except frames). I have the space and the tools, but really have to balance work and a whole bunch of other projects as well. So, I buy un-assembled boxes and finish building and painting those. I build my own bottom boards, inner covers, outer covers, entrance reducers, landing boards, migratory tops and hive stands. Those are all the simplest wood projects. I tend to do a batch at a time of one type of project to maximize the use of wood, etc. Doing it this way provides a good balance of my time and my financial resources. It also gets the woodworking "bug" out of me!


----------



## mlewis48 (Nov 24, 2007)

I make most of mine but Dadant sold me some cheap boxes that were 8.00/ brood box. I can't make them for that, supers were 6.00/per medium. I will still make all of my lids, bottom boards, slatted racks, and stands. I enjoy being out in the shop and love the smell of saw dust and paint. It makes the Winter months go by faster and keeps me out of my wifes hair. I don't know about the rest of you but this season flew by and it was over before I knew it. Where did it go? The jump from 9 to 40 hives took a good deal of time, I don't see how you guys do it that have 100+ hives. The downside of my increase was it did take me out of the wood shop and into Dadants more.:scratch: I can't wait until Spring ot another warm spell so I can get back out into the hives, I hate the down time!
Marc


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

mlewis writes:
The jump from 9 to 40 hives took a good deal of time, I don't see how you guys do it that have 100+ hives.

mlewis bring up a good point in that the 'step' in most folks expansion are not exactly equal. for myself the step from 3 to 12 was fairly easy and the step from 12 to 40 was challanging but not burdensom, and the step from 40 to 150 likely stretched my man hours input in building or assembling equipment to the maximum.

if I was determined to make the next step (which I likely will not) then either I would need to hire seasonal help or perhaps buy a small bee keeping firm to make this step possible.


----------



## chefbeek (Sep 7, 2007)

*Thank you!*

Thank you everyone for sharing your experience. I especially enjoy the jumps from <10 to >20. I'd love to get to 25 by the end off next season, God willing/weather permitting, but 20 queenright colonies after Spring splits is my goal. 

I forgot Dadant was stretched for product. I will call ahead. If I do make deep and medium supers, I use rough 1x12 white pine. The drops give me plenty of material for bb's, inner and outer covers, etc...and I always plan on making those. 

Yes indeed, the smell of foundation and pine dust with the Allman Bros. on the radio in my shop does make the Winter go by faster.... 

Thanks again!
Eamon


----------



## riverrat (Jun 3, 2006)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Shoot, I'm so far behind, I think I'm ahead.


keith did I just se you lap me. And I thought I was ahead.


----------



## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

chefbeek said:


> Yes indeed, the smell of foundation and pine dust with the Allman Bros. on the radio in my shop does make the Winter go by faster....
> 
> Thanks again!
> Eamon


I agree, and that is where our concern is. If you bite off too much, it may go too fast! Nevertheless, whatever you choose, plan for more than you expect you'll need. There will be swarm calls, those successful, or over-successful hives that need supered, etc. Not much worse in a beekeeping outfit than to have to pass up a swarm call or loose a swarm from your own hives (especially when you're trying to build up) just because you didn't have the equipment ready.


----------



## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

One thing to keep in mind is, How much storage space to you have for MT equipment? Remember that once you stop expanding, you will need at least twice as many extra supers as you have with bees in. Those supers are empty after honey extraction and in a cold climate you want to contract the space so the bees don't have too much too keep warm. I find that I spend almost twice as much time dealing with winter storage, protecting empty comb, and maintaining equipment as I spend working with my bees. It's fun until it gets too be too much. There is nothing worse than grabbing a bunch of supers when you need to super up in the spring and finding that you have a couple hundred frames of worthless comb because you didn't find time to treat it for wax moths or properly mouse proof the stack of empties.

Over far too many years of far too many interests, I have learned the principal, but not the practice, that letting something that is fun get too big soon takes most of the fun out of it.


----------



## berkshire bee (Jan 28, 2007)

I've made some of my boxes from actual 1" thick wood I got for free. I usually buy boxes and frames and make everything else. As far as time, it's an individual thing. If you could be making more money than you're saving or doing something that you enjoy more during the time spent making boxes, those would be factors in deciding. If beekeeping is your livelyhood, like any other job, there are things that need to get done whether or not they are your favorite things to do.


----------



## chefbeek (Sep 7, 2007)

*Thanks All*

Thank you for everyones input. Great information. More than enough wisdom for myself and hopefully others.

Doug-been there done that. 25 is my "this is FUN!" cut-off. I have the space available for that much equipment, but not much more right now. 

The best way to ruin a perfectly good hobby is to turn it in to a business-unless you want to be a chef....

Best,
Eamon


----------



## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Chef

We built our ranch with the idea of making it in to a bed and breakfast, at nearly double the cost it would have been otherwise. It wasn't until I retired that I realized I liked to cook for my family and friends, and enjoyed putting on a big blowout two or three times a year but if I tied myself for cooking for the public 24/7 it would only take about six months before I would hate the smell of food cooking. We now have three huge extra bedrooms each with their own bath that only get used for personal friend or visiting family, and I am still a happy man. See, I live what I preach.


----------



## Durandal (Sep 5, 2007)

chefbeek

I am at the same place as you. First year and have 6 colonies and a nuc.

My goal is to go into winter with 30 colonies.

I just picked up 54 deeps already built and painted and cleaned for 5.00 each and 4 queen castles for doing 4, 2 frame, splits.

I'm going to be building migratory lids en masse and a couple screened pallets.

That decision was made based on what scrap material I know I have and would have.

What I am building are 5 frame nuc boxes...lots, for boosting up from the 2 frame splits and dedicated swarm catch boxes.

I have a more detailed plan, but I am still waffling on which direction I want to go. I figure I have till about the end of January to really decide.


----------



## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Sometimes the suppliers will have a sale where the price for large volume purchases can't be beat by making them yourself. If you know anyone with a large operation you can sometimes get them to include some for you. A friend of mine orderd about 500 assembled and primered lids on sale for $5.00 each a couple of years ago. I only needed 30 so he lumped it into his order. Check around, there might be someone near you that could help you out that way.


----------



## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Another thought on expansion came to me. My wife and I are challenged to get to a couple of our out yards at times. So we had to start looking at it like this, "how many hives can I work given the time constraint that I have?" In two yards, we had 5 hives, but we could only work 3 at a time depending on what was going on. So working 3, that meant 2 were left for next visit. That wasn't a problem until we fell in the trap of "we KNOW that these 3 need our help on next visit, so we'll put off the other 2 for the subsequent visit." pretty soon, we had 2 hives in each yard that wasn't getting any attention and we began to loath the idea of even touching them (some became outright mean). We learned our lesson. now we only have 3 hives in these two yards.

And thats how we developed our expansion strategy for those locations.


----------

