# Selling Virgin Queens



## tpope (Mar 1, 2015)

Welcome to beesource.

I have bought the in the past. The only reason is that I wanted some of the genetics and the queens were not being offered as mated. There was a guarantee included.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

There seems to be a small market if you have bees of a certain genetics or "treatment free" that make them more special that someone else's. Also having them early, but not too early so beekeeper that want to do a split can take advantage of them. During the late spring, you probably can't give them away. But a newly hatched virgin can go for $10 locally.


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## hsprint45 (Dec 18, 2016)

Thanks.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Limited shelf-life though. Wouldn't you be better off selling cells? I mean, you'd still need the same number of nucs to hatch them out as you would for mating, wouldn't you? Seems to me that hatching multiple queens in the same nuc/hive would present a bit of a problem.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> Limited shelf-life though. Wouldn't you be better off selling cells? I mean, you'd still need the same number of nucs to hatch them out as you would for mating, wouldn't you? Seems to me that hatching multiple queens in the same nuc/hive would present a bit of a problem.


I put my queen cells in cages to let them emerge. So I can leave them all in the same hive and remove them as they hatch. A queen cell doesn't have the same value as a virgin queen because there is a possibility that she won't emerge. Although I do agree that there is a limited shelf life on the virgins. That's why I say you need to have the buyers lined up before hand so on Day 1 when they emerge, you can get them over to the buyer.

Some will say that a queen cell is better accepted in a split than a virgin would be. I've not done enough experiments with both methods to draw my own conclusion yet.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> Wouldn't you be better off selling cells?


That's what I would do.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

ruthiesbees said:


> I put my queen cells in cages to let them emerge.


Ah, I get the picture now.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You certainly can put the cells inside an incubator for the virgins to emerge. Then
ship them out asap or put them in the mating nucs for 2 weeks if you don't have that
many bee resources. This is faster than the 1 month period to make a mated queen. The 3 days acceptance
window is really short though.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I've found that selling virgins locally is more hassle than mated queens. Most folks have no clue how to introduce them and often kill them in the process. For me, I sell mated queens or cells.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

I've been buying virgins every spring for the last 6 years. They are the first ones that go in my mating nucs, so I get them early before I start grafting my own queens. It's been a good way to get some VSH and Russian genetics mixed with my own local bees. The ones I get are daughters of VP Spartan VSH and also Russian breeder queens. They emerge into a California mini cage in the incubator, add attendants, shipped that day, and I get them the next morning. Acceptance and mating has been nearly perfect at times.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So how do the virgins do for your mite fighting colonies?
Do you still have to treat them?


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

Haven't treated for 8 years.

"So how do the virgins do for your mite fighting colonies?
Do you still have to treat them?"


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

rkereid>> where do you get them from?


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

clyderoad said:


> rkereid>> where do you get them from?


Broke T here on Beesource for the VSH, and Chris Hewitt for the Russians.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

thank you.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

What's the trick for acceptance? I've tried the smoking them heavily and running her in trick with no luck. Only tried it twice, just this year, both attempts failed. Would appreciate any advice.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

Nordak said:


> What's the trick for acceptance? I've tried the smoking them heavily and running her in trick with no luck. Only tried it twice, just this year, both attempts failed. Would appreciate any advice.


Standard install of queen cage with attendants. Even in small splits they're released in a couple days max. I've done some direct releases with good results, but haven't done enough to say it's really reliable for me. I've been getting between 30 and 50 virgins every spring and like I said before, I've had close to perfect results with some batches, and 60 to 80% for most. Earlier splits during cooler weather have the lower success rate.

The biggest problem I've had is some types of bees do not like the new queens. I've noticed that splits made from these same colonies are not as accepting of any new queen, and yet other similar splits from different colonies will accept with no problem. in my operation it's usually more Italian type bees that are not as accepting. This is probably too much generalizing, but something is going on. Of course, you can't have any queen cells in the splits or you'll have no success at all.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

rkereid said:


> Standard install of queen cage with attendants. Even in small splits they're released in a couple days max. I've done some direct releases with good results, but haven't done enough to say it's really reliable for me. I've been getting between 30 and 50 virgins every spring and like I said before, I've had close to perfect results with some batches, and 60 to 80% for most. Earlier splits during cooler weather have the lower success rate.
> 
> The biggest problem I've had is some types of bees do not like the new queens. I've noticed that splits made from these same colonies are not as accepting of any new queen, and yet other similar splits from different colonies will accept with no problem. in my operation it's usually more Italian type bees that are not as accepting. This is probably too much generalizing, but something is going on. Of course, you can't have any queen cells in the splits or you'll have no success at all.


Thanks! Never occurred to me to try a standard release.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

At bee emergence time, all the new bees emerged will accept any queen or cells.
Time it around the 22nd day to ship your QCs. Then make your split as usual without the
normal foragers or older bees on the bee frames. With the QCs you have to make a protector cage or with tubes. For the
live emerged virgin you have to dip her in honey all over and then make your direct release right on the frame of new bees. Another way is to
use the CO2 to put them all asleep though I have not attempt this yet.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

beepro said:


> At bee emergence time, all the new bees emerged will accept any queen.....For the
> live emerged virgin you have to dip her in honey all over and then make your direct release right on the frame of new bees.


That makes sense. Stocking mating nucs with frames of emerging capped brood would put the odds of acceptance in one's favor for any method I would imagine. I'll test it out again this year and see if I can get better results. Thanks.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Nordak said:


> What's the trick for acceptance?


i've only a small sample size of 5 in terms of introducing virgins, but i am at 100% so far with all 5 getting accepted.

it may have to do with the fact that they had just emerged or were only a few hours at the most from emerging.

they were virgins that emerged while in the incubator a day before they were supposed to.

they were all put into nucs containing small splits (3 frames of bees) that had been queenless for a day or so.

i put the virgins onto a frame of open honey containing very few bees. no smoke was used. the virgins immediately started feeding on the open honey. in some cases what few workers were on the frame came over to check the virgin out, and in some cases the virgin demonstrated submissiveness to the workers but after a short time the workers went on their way. after allowing the virgin to feed for a few minutes i put the frame into the nuc with the virgin to the very outside and closed up the nuc.

i would rather place a cell than introduce a virgin, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Thanks SP. I was in a situation where I found several virgins running around the hive from swarm cells and didn't want to miss out on the opportunity to try and raise a couple. I made splits from a different hive as I didn't want to take bees from a large hive already depleted of it's laying queen and half the population. The timing is probably what did it. I only waited about 4 hours, which I thought would be sufficient time for them not to recognize the virgin as a threat and to give time for any foragers to return back to the main hive. I also prefer cells, as I've had great success thus far with introduced cells. If faced again with the situation of introducing a virgin, I've got a lot more info to work with. 

Thanks again all.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Nordak said:


> ....frames of emerging capped brood ....


For the balled virgin or mated queen released in a hurry I have to get them out asap to
a newly emerged frame of bees picking out the older bees patrolling on the frame. The more
nurse bees I have the better is her acceptance level. This is another way to saved a balled queen.


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