# OAV Propane Gaget



## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

Hi everyone. 
Grozzies's post got me worried, so I am getting ready to start my OAV treatment. I have the wand but I just don't like dragging battery around and I think it is too slow. I intend to make several of these and use a regular propane torch. It takes about 50 second to get the OA vaporized in this gadget. If you have had any experience with this method of using propane or you know of anything I should know please let me know. 
Thanks
DP


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

known as "crack pipe" oav

The slow heat pan type vaporizers thermally break down about 50% of the OA, there is a supisstion That the fast type ones will break it down more, roumor is randy olver is doing some tests, so we shale see.

if your worried about speed why not the long proven dribble method instead of some unproven experimental one ?

un like the wand your right by the hive and can get a face full of OAV... seems like you would need more protective gear


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

deepster said:


> Hi everyone.
> Grozzies's post got me worried, so I am getting ready to start my OAV treatment. I have the wand but I just don't like dragging battery around and I think it is too slow. I intend to make several of these and use a regular propane torch. It takes about 50 second to get the OA vaporized in this gadget. If you have had any experience with this method of using propane or you know of anything I should know please let me know.
> Thanks
> DP


Quicker, yes but as yet not proven to work very well. You stated you were interested in make several. How much would it cost in time and money to make several? Might be less costly to get something like a ProVap 110 or other quicker to use OAV product.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Oxalic acid vaporization has 3 important temperatures. As the oxalic acid diydrate heats up, initially the water portion boils off as temperature goes over 100C (212F) and that creates the cloud of steam you see initially during vaporization. At 157C (315F) the oxalic acid will start to sublimate, this is the stuff you want to propogate thru the hive and become tiny OA crystals throughout the hive. Continue heating and as temp goes over 189C (372F) any oxalic acid left will break down into a tiny amount of formic acid and carbon monoxide.

Pan style vaporizers use a very crude but effective means of temperature control. A glow plug produces a limited amount of heat, and the aluminum pan acts as a heat sink, ie it cannot be heated up in just a couple of seconds. The amount of time it takes to heat the pan up to the breakdown temperature is usually enough time for a 2g load to sublimate before it gets that hot. Higher capacity, ie faster, vaporizers typically have a form of thermostat to control pan temperature and prevent the OA from being brought up to breakdown temperatures.

My question for a method using a torch like that, how are you ensuring the OA is being heated to sublimation temperatures without being overheated into the breakdown range ?


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Get a lighter battery! Mine is a little lawn mower one and I have rigged a rope harness for it so I can carry around like a purse. I think a battery like that costs about $60, but it is well worth it, IMO. I schlepp mine around to sites that are more than half a mile from where I can park my car. I carry a gallon of water, smoker, protective gear and all the OAV equipment in one tote (a 5-gallon bucket) and the battery in the other hand. If I had to carry a car battery this wouldn't be possible. I can do more than 20 hives before my little battery gets a bit squirrely, and needs to be recharged. 

I know my Varrox works exactly as intended. I wouldn't want to waste even a fraction of my effort on an unproven method. Never mind the risks to the bees.

Nancy


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Higher capacity, ie faster, vaporizers typically have a form of thermostat to control pan temperature and prevent the OA from being brought up to breakdown temperatures.





> My question for a method using a torch like that, how are you ensuring the OA is being heated to sublimation temperatures without being overheated into the breakdown range


Acording to the literature the provap 110 has a starting temp of 230c and doesn't drop below 210c and will finish vaperising in 20 seconds

the OP is cold starting the pipe, and its taking almost 3x as long as the provap, I don't see how he would be overheating the OA any more then the provap...


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## rangerpeterj (Dec 27, 2015)

I used my form of a crack pipe for two years, and worked well. It had very good mite drop after treatment .The key is to do alcohol wash before and after treatment. I did 4 treatments 5 days apart , test then retreat if necessary . You have to take care to heat pipe up as far as you can , then bowl or the OA will recristalize in the pipe and clog up. I have since moved on to a homemade cheap-O Vac of JOHNO design . This unit works fast and very cheap to make , and don't clog up. I can treat 7 hives in 30 min from the time out the back door set up heat up treat and clear up and back in door. Thank you JohnO . Pete


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

I can build 10 of thise crack pipe in one hour, at the cost of around $14 each, one can watch the process of sublimation by test drive, to know exactly how long it needs to keep the touch directly on the pan, you see it boil first them sublimate and set your timer. around 50 seconds for this one. Now if I have ten of them and assuming they are effective, I can load them install them on the hives close up hives and start heating one by one. Ten hives done in 10 minutes! to me this is fantastic. No hot wand in the hive either. Tip of this contraption doesn't get that hot. 

Which leaves me with one Question, Why this method is not very popular!?

rangerpeterj
Yes, I noticed the Crystallization in the pipe. Did you loose hives when you treated with your crack pipe, can you post a pic?

Please give me more info on cheap-O Vac of JOHNO design

In the mean while I am getting a lawnmower battery. 
Thank you everyone. I like to know how many more of crack pipe users are out there


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

the johno-vap https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?332394-Band-heater-vaporizer


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

> I don't see how he would be overheating the OA any more then the provap


I am not an expert but my (engineering mind) thinking is the provap spreads the OA over a larger area (inch+ square) while the pipe may be a smaller pile spread over less area. When you spread the OA over more area it may vaproize quicker. I do not have any data to prove this though.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

If you research Oxalic Acid's response to temperature, then you'll discover that should Oxalic Acid Dihydrate be subjected to gradually rising heat, it will first dehydrate and then vapourise. This vapour, having cooled upon leaving the heat source which created it, then forms into a visible micro-crystalline dust of Oxalic Acid. (OA *vapour* itself being invisible)

BUT - if Oxalic Acid Dihydrate is suddenly subjected to a source of heat well above it's sublimation temperature (known colloquially as 'red heat'), then it will decompose into Formic Acid, Carbon Monoxide, and other 'non-specific' compounds.

To suddenly subject Oxalic Acid to such a high temperature then not only destroys the compound itself, but decomposes it with some uncertainty. Therefore it's essential to avoid *sudden* exposure to such high temperatures. 

So - when vapourising Oxalic Acid, it's important to allow the temperature to rise reasonably slowly. With Johno's Band Heater design, observations that the visible cloud of Oxalic Acid dust has retained it's crystalline structure is essentially confirmation that the rise in temperature has not been excessive. Because - upon cooling, Formic Acid vapour forms a liquid and NOT crystals, so this difference can be used for (rough) confirmation.
LJ


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

mls wow just wow I stayed up for a while reading johno's thread, lots of if info. there. what a great group job. I will be making cheap-o and the full version for sure. thank you so much for sending it. I guess he is recreating the provap vaporizer.

Little_john That you for the full explanation. I saw john's pic with OAV crystals on his arms. Didn't understand the reason for it!!! I do get crystallization in my crack pipe. I will try my arm also!!!


I still see a huge advantage in the crack pipe, no electricity, robust and inexpensive. It is very fast if one builds ten of them! Now that I am armed with johnos work, temp range I need and arm test! I can use a thermocouple to measure the temp of the pan after 1 minute of heating it, I am sure it is not getting above 300C because all the plumbing solder which are near pan I put together are nowhere near melting. solder melts above 240deg C.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

sort of LJ, I don't think most beekeeper can tell the level of break down by eye.
as I noted earlyer they have seen significant break down even with slow heat 1% formic, 54% OA crystals, and the rest water and CO2 - EMEA/MRL/891/03

Sounds like Randy Oliver has started his vaporizer trials, so we will likly have an answer soon about break down in the faster 

He has this feedback in another fourm 
_It is absolutely amazing to me the potential health risks to themselves that beekeepers will lightheartedly take to control varroa.
My own crew has been experimenting with two OA vaporizers this past week, and just shake their heads as to the risks involved, compared to how we are
able to successfully control varroa year after year with much safer application methods of OA, formic, and thymol._
That is were I am at, every time I get the itch to build aJohno-vap, I rember the cost of the safety gear

deepster, I would save your $$ and wait for the results. and for petes sake don't go spraying OAV on your arm just because some on on the inter net did 
Why not go with OA trickle.... fast and easy, cheap, comparability safe, kills mites for a longer window then OAV, kills more mites in a brood on situation.


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## Bee Havin (Mar 1, 2017)

When I got back into bees a few years ago I started to treat using just a 1/2" copper pipe about a foot long and a copper cap on the end. The cap held the correct amount of acid to treat a double brood box. It worked ok, but you need to heat the end of the pipe slowly for the correct vaporization. It does leave some crystallization in the pipe and the end cap is a little tough to get off to refill, but it does work. Shortly after I bought a temperature controlled with a built in timer that is battery powered. Slower yes, cost more yes, work better yes. Heating the pipe slowly also takes time. Would I go back to the pipe? If I had to.
Just my two cents.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

msl said:


> sort of LJ, I don't think most beekeeper can tell the level of break down by eye. as I noted earlyer they have seen significant break down even with slow heat 1% formic, 54% OA crystals, and the rest water and CO2 - EMEA/MRL/891/03


Well - I did say "rough" ... LOL 

I wouldn't get too excited about the creation of 1% of Formic Acid, although personally I'd like to avoid it completely - nasty stuff - as is thymol. With VOA you don't need too much in the way of safety gear, especially if there's a constant breeze blowing. Living near the coast I find early evening is the worst time, as sea breezes start to take over, when any existing breeze then becomes flukey and unpredictable - very easy to get a whiff of OA under those conditions. But - a simple dust mask is all you really need, along with some safety specs.

If you're uber-safety conscious, then use a vapourising wand, and operate it from a safe distance.
LJ


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

Bee_havin

what brand did you buy?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

msl said:


> Why not go with OA trickle...kills mites for a longer window then OAV, kills more mites in a brood on situation.


Explain that please.........


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

msl said:


> sort of LJ,
> That is were I am at, every time I get the itch to build aJohno-vap, I remember the cost of the safety gear


A one time cost for a quality respirator is hardly a reason to spend more on other treatments that you need to buy over & over & over..........


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> A one time cost for a quality respirator is hardly a reason to spend more on other treatments that you need to buy over & over & over


but I am not spending more using trickel...
I wouldn't use a hand held high flow system with out a full face respirator, at the moment that + the cost of the vaporizer+ cost of inverter+ cost of a battery doesn't = enuff utility or time savings vs OA trickle for me. Last year I trickled 33 hives in under an hour. Also I often only use OA once a year, unless I have a problem hive, and I am not draging all that gear around to do just one or 2 hives, so even if I valued my time at $100 an hour it would be many, many years for a ROI..
but they look just so darn cool, so I keep getting tempted, lol. Must be somthing about a smoke shooter, and the reason fad foggier cures wont die 



> Explain that please


OAV kills more mites in a brood less situation, but OA trickle drops mites for a longer peirod of time... ie mite peak drop is usaly 6 or so days. Studys are showing that when used brood on it kills more mites, it seems the longer action time alows it to contact more mites as they emerge and thus kill more mites even thow it kills a lower prestantage of mites exposed to it

_Significantly more mites fell six days after OA application than 2 or 4 days after OA application. This statistic may be interpreted several ways. One interpretation is that OA has residual activity against varroa for at least six days post-treatment. Charrière et al. (2004) and Gregorc and Planinc (2004) report that mite fall can occur over a 3 week period in hives treated with OA _ Aliano 2008 refereeing trickle https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/...redir=1&article=1181&context=entomologyfacpub

compare that to the 3 or so day drop OAV study's often report.






Oliver 2018 The Varroa Problem: Part 15
One of the easy ways to see this effect is in Giacomelli 2013 _Honey bee queen caging: the artificial absence of brood as a strategy for varroatosis containment_ 
were they are testing oav and trickle on hives with and with out a brood break














brood on OAV killed 6.81% more mites then the control, trickle killed 49.36% more mites then control
when you flip to brood less oav killed 640.97% more mite then control and trickle only killed 465.82% more then control.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

You don't need a respirator - respirators are for gases - you need a reasonable quality dust mask.

The most effective time to administer VOA is during winter, when the colonies are more-or-less broodless. That's not a suitable time to be opening up hives in order to dribble liquid all over them.
LJ


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Integrated control of Varroa mites*

*Varroa mites, Varroa destructor, evolved in Asia where they are a parasite of the Asian honey bee Apis cerana. They have since become a pest of the Western hive bee Apis mellifera and have spread worldwide. Large numbers of Varroa mites can kill a bee colony and the mites can also increase virus mortality.*








Varroa mites on an adult honey bee







A honey bee colony being treated with Oxalic Acid using sublimation method







Oxalic Acid varroa treatment using the dribbling technique







Research facilities manager, Luciano Scandian, counting bees
Controlling _Varroa_ is considered essential for successful beekeeping. _Varroa_ was first detected in Britain in 1992. Until recently, _Varroa_ could be controlled using Apistan strips. Apistan contains a chemical (fluvalinate) that is toxic to the mites but is safe for honey bees and humans. Treating a hive with Apistan needed a few minutes work per year and cost just a few pounds.
However, fluvalinate-resistant _Varroa_ now occur throughout much of the world including much of Britain. Alternative methods to kill _Varroa_ have been developed and tested in Europe and North America, especially in countries that never permitted the use of Apistan or where the mites have been resistant for longer. These variously use fumigants (formic acid, thymol), spray the bees in a hive with a solution harmful to _Varroa_ (lactic acid, oxalic acid), trap mites in drone brood that is then removed from the hive and killed, or make use of a mesh hive floor which allows the varroa to fall through and die.
An important strand of our research on pests and diseases concerns the application of oxalic acid (OA). Although OA has been used by beekeepers for several decades to kill varroa, it became clear that a study was needed to determine the effectiveness of different doses and application methods on mite and bee mortality.
An experiement conducted by researchers at LASI using 110 hives comparing three application methods and three different doses was completed in 2014. Hives were treated in early January 2013 when they had no brood. Oxalic acid does not kill varroa in sealed cells, but rather kills those varroa transported on the bodies of workers and also those crawling in cells not yet capped.The researchers determined the proportion of mites killed by washing the mites off a sample of approximately 300 workers bees immediately before and after 10 days of treatment with OA. They also determined the number of bees killed at the time of treatment, together with hive mortality and strength 4 months later in spring.
_*The results came to a clear and encouraging conclusion. Application of OA via sublimation, where OA is applied in its pure form by vapourising the crystals with a special heated tool, was superior to application as a solution via either spraying or dribbling. Sublimation gave a greater kill of varroa at a lower OA level and showed no increase in bee mortality. In fact, 4 months after treatment, the hives treated via the sublimation had more brood than the 10 untreated colonies.*_
The sublimation method is quick and easy, as the hives do not need to be opened. To confirm the results obtained by LASI researchers early in 2013, the sublimation technique was retested one year later in December 2013, just before Christmas, in broodless honey bee colonies. An amazing 97% of the varroa were killed by using 2.25g of oxalic acid per hive, and colony survival 3 months later in spring was close to 100%.
This research project was overseen by Prof. Francis Ratnieks and led by PhD student Hasan Altoufailia. LASI facilities manager, Luciano Scandian, assisted with his extensive beekeeping knowledge. The results will be published shortly


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

if its too cold to open, its to cold for OAV. Trickle has a lower recommend use temp then OAV



> you need a reasonable quality dust mask


wholey inadequate for the type of exposer you can get from a hand held... I know people do it, but as I said I woun't
osha mandates a full face with n100 for workers, I chose to errro on the side of caustion, and want my eyes proteced, yes its fine dust not gas, but it can easly get around safty glasses, and full seal unvented gogles would be a mess to work with

SNL 


> Hives were treated in early January 2013 when they had no brood


no were have I said or sited that OAV wasn't more eftive in a brood-less situation... quite the opposite as I said in post 19


> brood less oav killed 640.97% more mite then control and trickle only killed 465.82% more then control





> An amazing 97% of the varroa were killed by using 2.25g of oxalic acid per hive


you will note the study I was siteing had an even better broodless OAV kill rate 98.55%!!!


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

msl said:


> if its too cold to open, its to cold for OAV. Trickle has a lower recommend use temp then OAV


I wouldn't open a hive to dribble at 37f, no problem with OAV....


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Well I wouldn't either if I sold vaporizers :lpf: 
(side note SNL is a stand up guy and has my respect... but I had to have some fun and go for the low hanging fruit )

Yet that is well with in its recommended range... cold is an aly to speed no suit no smoker, the bees stay clustered, tip back the top box, shoot 10 5cc seams close it.. done in under 60 sec. given our difrent climates the perception of what it "too cold" to work bee is likly very diffrent 

Either way if you don't open the hives, how will you know its broodless? You will note in the study your siteing they had to wait till jan as the hives didn't go broodless in Dec as expected.. Either way you need to pop the lid and take a look last year I went broodless lat Oct, year before was late Nov

_By means of hive inspections in late autumn and Winter, beekeepers can determine when the natural minimum brood period occurs in their area. However, brood rearing may vary year by year. In the Winter of 2015/6 we found that brood rearing in Sussex continued longer into December than usual, and resulted in our delaying oxalic acid treatment until January and having a lower proportion of broodless hives
_ Ratnieks, 2016 The Best Way To Kill Varroa With Oxalic Acid https://www.beeculture.com/sublimation/


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## Bee Havin (Mar 1, 2017)

deepster said:


> Bee_havin
> 
> what brand did you buy?


I bought mine from Kelly. I think the one they sell now is about the same thing. Item no. 9030........$114.95 It works foe me.


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

Bee_Havin

You are the right person to comment on my crack pipe, because you have had both.
with the price of Kelly wand one can have ten crack pipe, Already loaded, installed ready to be heated. If you had fifteen hives which way you go?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

deepster said:


> If you had fifteen hives which way you go?


With the 20 second Provap 110 of course!
Sorry, just couldn’t resist


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

msl said:


> osha mandates a full face with n100 for workers


OSHA has a limit of 1 mg/m3 for Oxalic Acid over an 8-hour period.

Think about what that concentration and time period implies !! This limit - and the associated respirator recommendations - are for workers continuously exposed to Oxalic Acid *indoors*.

You'd be pretty pushed to have even the tiniest fraction of a milligram per cubic metre in the wide outdoors (except inside the hive, of course).

If I ever used Oxalic Acid indoors, then I'd wear a full face-mask too ... but I'm not that daft.
LJ


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Hell I use OAV indoors from time to time when I treat my observation hive, no problem just block the screened vent holes with cotton balls remove the 1/4" plug insert the 3/16" end of my vaporizer and treat. I even watch the bees reaction to the sudden inflow of OAV and see the bees panic and run around like crazy and as the OAV subsides and moves outside through the entrance how the bees are back to normal in about 5 minutes. Of course no vapor comes out of the hive indoors.
Johno


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

msl said:


> Either way you need to pop the lid and take a look last year I went broodless lat Oct, year /


True, but you only need to pop ONE lid to see if they’re broodless. Then it’s off to the races.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I wound not make any management decision on mite control based on the results of one hive in a yard


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

msl said:


> I wound not make any management decision on mite control based on the results of one hive in a yard


Very true, but a couple all indicating the same would do it for me...


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## Van from Arkansas (Jul 9, 2018)

Yes Sir, Lil John, agreed with all you text....... I told ya I would follow to Beesource. So far, so good. Apparently there are some knowledgeable folks on this forum from what few text I have read.
Blessings


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

In my area bees could be broodless from late November, December and maybe even in January so after my mid summer treatments which could be as much as 10 treatments over that period I also give all of my hives a treatment in late November another in December and if possible another in January. The treatments are so quick and easy and does not trouble the bees much and I sleep better at night knowing my bees will not expire due to mite damage. What could possibly go wrong. Nothing so far after 4 or 5 years and whats more after all those dangerous OAV treatments I am still feeling quite well.
Johno


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

I am getting ready to build ten of these, I made the mod to 3/8" on the nozzle, so it can easily go through the front entrance or you can make a hole in the back similar to provap 110 or johno. Also after reading jhono's thread on his vaporizer, I insulated this one and tried it. If the section that says outside the hive is insulated it gets to sublimation at around 36 second. However uninsulated is fast enough for me. Ten of these in hand quite possibly the fastest and cheapest OA vaporizer I have know... 

SNL 
That includes Provap 110 if you start the timer from the moment you get the extension cored out the box and start dragging it to the apiary. ))))


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> OSHA has a limit of 1 mg/m3 for Oxalic Acid over an 8-hour period.


and its STL (15min limit) is 2mg/M3



> You'd be pretty pushed to have even the tiniest fraction of a milligram per cubic metre in the wide outdoors


With a wand perhaps where time and distance is your friend , but in this case your dealing with a hand held device that is outputing 2,000 mg in 20 seconds less then a meter from your face. 
for me any way I don't see safety glasses and a paper dust mask as addaquite protection from the potentially exposer

looks good deapster, the cast Iron cap has a lot of mass and should help with an even heat and help keep it from over heating


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Deepster by the look of your device I would say you should be careful on the length of the outlet as the farther you get from the heat source the cooler the outlet will become thereby allowing the vapor to crystallize on the inside and perhaps cause you some problems. Years ago when I played with this type of vaporizer that is one of the problems I came across and as at that time I was trying to treat through the front entrance the outlet needed to be long so as to gain entry and still have the heat source away from the entrance. With a little ingenuity it could be possible to build a a band heater type where you could still heat with propane and still use a silicone plug to insert your OA especially if you treated through a small hole in the back of the hive.
Johno


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## Beebeard (Apr 27, 2016)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vr-bh_Eq0I

I made mine with a much shorter pipe stem and don't get much build up in the tube. Also, I thought fiberglass insulation would help, but its not needed. All mine are bare copper now. One small hole in the back of the hive. the vapor blows around the hive fine. I did a summer round of 5 last year, and a fall broodless period single shot. Mite washes before and after showed that yes, it worked. I lost zero of 15 hives. I noticed no loss of bees, queens, or brood. if some of the OA is breaking down into formic acid (something of a miticide itself anyway), someone forgot to tell my bees to die, because it seems the only thing that got harmed were the mites. no battery, no cables, no fuss. treat and go.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Here's what I used, and under $10. Mine was actually the 90* bent one, but this would work better in hind sight. Use a small funnel to get the OA into the pipe, small end fits into a reduced entrance well. As others noted, heat the pipe near entrance first, and work toward the end w/ the OA.

Link to pipe I used, no assembly needed.

I used this to get my first OAV treatments done. The following year, I built a wand with thermocouple to control temps. I like the ability to plug in and treat, no need to play with the torch and hot pipes. Also as others noted, with the pipe you tend to have your face closer than I felt comfortable.

I'm not a scientist, chemist, or otherwise, but did a lot of research on this subject. I came to a few conclusions, all which should be verified...
-OA will sublimate very fast within the proper temperature range, so under normal conditions it would be difficult to heat it to breakdown temps before it all sublimated.
-OA will crystallize very fast on any surface, which would include a P95/N95 dust mask. Note ANY air escaping around the mask is a hazard! I opted for a tight-fitting half-face P95 mask to avoid that. Note, the oil rating of the P95 isn't necessary in this application, it's just what they had in the form factor I wanted.
-A dose of OA for a single hive would provide a sufficient concentration to be lethal for anyone within the air volume of a typical home.
-OA that crystallizes inside your lungs will mix with mucus forming a strong tissue-destroying acid! This causes permanent damage.
-OAV has lower bee mortality (including brood) than OA dribble.
-OAV has similar or marginally higher mite kill to dribble.
-OAV can be done without opening a hive (though a blind treatment isn't without downsides). I treated mid-summer during a brood slowdown, and repeated for a series of 3 treatments total at 5 day interval. I did mite count before the first and days after the last, but did not open the hive for the other treatments.

I personally like OAV over dribble, though the health risks still have me testing out other treatments (HopGard II, etc). I still like OAV as the cheapest option per treatment while holding fantastic results, but the medical bills it could cause to the careless are MUCH higher.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Beebeard it sure works but it sure takes a long time I would much rather do a 30 second treatment. The other thing about the health hazard mentioned, does anyone know if there has been any beekeeper who has had problems from using OAV, I would imagine it is a little like swimming if you try to breathe in the water, could be dangerous. If someone should stand in a cloud of vapor and try to breathe or continue to breathe once he has caught a whiff of the vapor I would like to nominate them for the Darwin award.
Johno


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## Beebeard (Apr 27, 2016)

Johno, this was my first test run video and it was cold out. At warmer temps it takes about 1 to 1.5 minutes, probably could get it done in 30 if I open the torch up and let er rip.. Your gadget works good too, mine suits me fine because I hate wires and like playing with fire. Both are way faster and easier than any wand out there, and way cheaper than a provap. And I almost Darwin myself forgetting to put on my respirator when shooting the video!


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

Johno, 
Thank you for showing up on this thread I really value your input. As far as nozzle length goes I do want to make it smaller if I can find inexpensive fire resistant material to protect the front entrance. If shorten the nozzle reduces the crystallization? the nozzle you have is 3/16" has it given you problems?
In your opinion front entry is as effective as back and up as you have it? 

Beebeard,

Loved your device, very nice and compact. why does it have three way? what is the purpose of the part going up? being so close to the hive doesn't the nozzle burn the hive body around the hole?


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I used a pipe and a torch for a long time. They work every bit as well as an aluminum pan with a glow plug in it. They are extremely portable. I had problems in the beginning with the OA crystalizing at the end of a longer tube which was easily remedied. I also put hangar tape around the pipe to attach a handle for it, and was using some copper tubing (water tube for swamper) brazed to the body as the outlet pipe.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

I believe the exposure in limited levels is unpleasant at best, but sounds like not lethal to a healthy person.

https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=47642.0

https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb[email protected]+1100


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Beebeard said:


> Johno, this was my first test run video and it was cold out. At warmer temps it takes about 1 to 1.5 minutes, probably could get it done in 30 if I open the torch up and let er rip.. Your gadget works good too, mine suits me fine because I hate wires and like playing with fire. Both are way faster and easier than any wand out there, and way cheaper than a provap. And I almost Darwin myself forgetting to put on my respirator when shooting the video!


Interesting, any before and after mite numbers? Seems cheap and easy but just not sure I want to try without knowing how well it works. Thanks.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Beebeard if you could weld some stuff together using a 11/4" copper coupling with a 3/16" outlet and fit a handle to the side opposite the outlet you could pre heat the device use one of the mocap hollow silicone plugs and use the device in a similar way that we use the band heater vaporizer. There would be no reason to cool the device down so you could probably get your treatment time down to 30 seconds. Treating from behind the hive is way ahead of trying to treat through the entrance and if you are using 2 deeps or 3 mediums treating through a 1/4" hole near the top of the bottom deep or near the top of the 2nd medium gives you a far better vapor coverage than treating from the bottom as the vapor actually has to displace the air in the boxes and as most of the leakage is through the entrance and hive bottom board and therefore better to treat from high. Generally you can leave the device just hanging in the hole so you do not have to hold it all the time. I cut 1/4" dowl into 1" pieces and just plug the holes when I am done, but before the next treatment use a short piece of 3/16" tubing so that when I remove the plug I can clear the hole out in case the bees have propolized around the inside if the vaporizer outlet gets plugged with propolis you could have problems.
Johno


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## Beebeard (Apr 27, 2016)

Ok, I'm home now and can answer in a bit more detail than typing on the phone.
View attachment 41991
View attachment 41993
View attachment 41991
Hopefully these pictures come through.

3/4 copper pipe and 2 end caps, a 3/8 threaded pipe nipple, length of choice. I put 1 cap on for the bottom with a friction fit: give it a tap on the side with a hammer to put it out of round and then twist it a bit. they have all stayed put and don't leak. I leave the cap on the top alone, that's the part you take off for charging. I drill a hole in the side of the pipe just smaller than the threads of the brass nipple. Then I use some pliers and elbow grease and force-thread the nipple into the copper pipe. this makes a surprisingly effective connection for this application. I do put a drop of solder on the threads. This is in no way structural, as the solder does not withstand the heat we are operating with, but the solder and flux are just enough to be a good thread sealant so the vapors don't escape. The brass tube goes closer to the top of the pipe than the bottom, making it just bottom heavy enough that when I put it in the hive, it stays in the vertical position. Apply heat and away it goes.

First time using it as a summer treatment in August went as follows: At the time I was using 24hr mite fall. Mite fall ranges were varying among hives, some in the 20-30 range, one at 120+. after 5 rounds 5 days apart, all but the heaviest hive had a mite fall of zero. The heaviest one had 3. This was on 15 hives of varying size. I have since moved on to alcohol washes. If I recall, my fall mite washes were all 3 or less per 1/2 cup sample. Not sure exact numbers, but none made me say whoa. I did another single round just after thanksgiving, but didn't wash after as the weather turned. This spring, mite washes have been 0 or 1 per sample. Just last weekend I started going through all hives (up to about 25 now) and have only washed as high as 3, and that's with no treatments since November.

In practice, I use 4 units. Just about all my hives are 1 deep and 1 medium. All honey supers are off. I charge it, insert just the end of it in a small hole in the bottom board at the rear of the hive. This is late evening, and I throw a towel over the entrance. I heat it with the torch, taking care to aim the flame away from the hive. The tube does not heat to the point of scorching wood, but the torch does. use caution. I heat for about 20 seconds where the brass tube meets the copper pipe, then heat the bottom of the copper pipe where the OA is for about a minute. I can hear it boil, then stop boiling as the sublimation ends. this amount of time varies with ambient temperature, so adjust accordingly. When the first one is done, I leave it in place, and do the second the same way. Then The third, and then 4th. By the time I'm done heating #4, #1 is cool to the touch, and I walk back and take it on over to the fifth hive. So on and so forth, leapfrogging them thru the yard till I'm done.

For me, this is the cheapest and fastest mite treatment plan I've tried. It works for me, it works for the bees. I like not needing a battery and there are no other power sources in the yard besides. The units are easy to put together. Are there other ways to build one? sure. Are there better ways to build one? sure. This is how I built and use mine, and I've had enough success with it that I will keep using it, and recommend it to others looking for a similar path.


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

Very good read beebeard. Thanks !!!


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

Johno 

If you feel treating from back of the hive is better maybe I build your type of chamber; 1" tube with flat copper bottom welded on and 3/16 pipe for nozzle. I like to know does mocap seals the chamber by simply being pushed down or hand pressure during application is necessary?

Thank you beebeard.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

Beebeard said:


> I heat it with the torch, taking care to aim the flame away from the hive.


3/4" fitting is sufficiently massive to be used as a preheated element for vaporization. The temperature regime with the preheated element is slightly different, but it still has (indirect) temperature control. The advantage is: the burner can be in the box and will not be affected by wind and it is less likely that something will be burnt. Also, the vaporizer is placed on the hive and beekeeper does not have to be there when the evaporation is going on.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Deepster treating from behind you do not even have to wear a veil unless your bees are very hot and also as I mentioned it is better to treat from higher in the hive. The mocap plugs can just push into the copper, now I mentioned a 11/4" coupling as the plugs that fit this size will hold 3 grams of OA the plugs that fit into 1" pipe will not and have to be ground out to make the hollow big enough to take 2 grams of OA, The plugs I use are MHSP 1.306/1.622 cost around $20 plus shipping for 5. You would insert your device into a 1/4" hole upside down after heating for about 2 minutes then push your OA filled plug into the heated device turn it right way up and tap the top of the plug to make sure all the OA falls down and if your device is hot enough you will get the job done in 30 seconds. when done remove the plug and allow to cool fill one of your other plugs and continue so you could use 3 plugs and just keep going. Remember the story about cleaning out the 1/4" holes cause if you dont and the 3/16" outlet gets plugged with propolis the pressure build up will pop off you mocap plug which is not good as there will be vapor everywhere
Johno


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

johno

For now I like to build few of these chambers. I already have 6 crack pipes as per my attached, which I am very happy with and has already made the task of treating lot faster and more effective than the wand I use to use. 

So I like to solve the problem of speed by building around ten of your type of chambers, preloading them by scoop and then installing them on ten hives then one by one heating them! not concern with speed loading. By the time I am done with the 10th hives the first one is cold enough to pickup and start over again, similar to beebeard.

I like to build them from 1" pipe because I have lot of 1" and 1.5" pipes as well as copper sheets (I run a small construction comp). I have a acetylene torch also, 1" pipe should heat up faster, no? specially if I insulate it. MHSP offers caps from .827 - 1.063 this should seal a 1" pipe?

when you treat from the back of hive do you close the front with a cloth?

Thank you so much with all your help.

DP


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Deepster when I have the entrance reducers on the smallest entrance I do not close them off, In mid summer when there is no entrance reducer at all I use a bunch of old dishtowels and roll them up length ways and lay them in front of the Hive entrance. I used a 11/4" coupling because my pipe cutter maxes out at 1" otherwise I would have used 11/2" copper pipe. If you welded a 12" piece of 3/16" brazing rod with a wooden handle opposite the 3/16" outlet and use the hollow plugs that will fit the 11/2" pipe you would only heat 1 device and carry on treating and heating the same device while using those mocap plugs to introduce the OA to the device, you can let the device hang in the hole while you load your 2 or 3 grams of OA into the next mocap hollow plug but thats up to you.
Johno


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

Johno

In my case the heat source is a torch, if I use the same one, speed load and move on it would be hard to guess when the OA has vaporized. As the starting point is not the same for each hive!? Having multiple of these one always start from a cold condition, so is only matter of running a timer for each. I expect 30sec of so for each. I will be making a few this weekend and let you know. 
On different note I am finding it difficult to locate 3/16", where do you get it. 

Thanks
DP


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Ace hardware sells 3/16" copper tubing and you can buy it by the foot. It is the standard copper tube used in refrigeration.
Johno


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

I got a yard fogger. Best thing I ever have used. All instructions are on Beesource somewhere. It could do 100 hives in a few hours. Including cleanup. And works beautifully , too.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Jadebees please post pictures of all the dead mites on your sticky boards, be the first.
Johno


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## 2Sox (Dec 17, 2011)

deepster said:


> Hi everyone.
> I just don't like dragging battery around and I think it is too slow.
> DP


 Don't know about propane torch, but I put my battery on a hand truck and that saves time and lots of grunt.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

jadebees said:


> I got a yard fogger. Best thing I ever have used. All instructions are on Beesource somewhere. It could do 100 hives in a few hours. Including cleanup. And works beautifully , too.


Works fast, just does not kill mites. Do a before and after count of mites or your bees and/or of dead mites..... Fun to use, lots of smoke but just does not work at killing mites.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

If it didn't work for you, you did it wrong. Or, didn't use a fogger at all. I first made one of those pipe OA vaporisers about 7 years ago. After doing dribble. Its not ideal, if you have regular high wind your treatment schedule doesnt move, if the wind blows your torch out.


Make a consistant solution, do the math for pumps required to fully sublimate the gram of O A or so per box, and you will find the fogger works excellent..
I dont count mites. If I see them, or their issues, I treat. Life's to short to screw around. You wont hgrm bees by treating with OA. Unless you do it wrong.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

enjambres said:


> Get a lighter battery!


Or get something with a built-in handle. I have this for jump-starting cars, and it also works great to power my vaporizer:









It's also a really good jump-starter.


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## beenoob (Jun 16, 2016)

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> Or get something with a built-in handle. I have this for jump-starting cars, and it also works great to power my vaporizer:
> 
> View attachment 42153
> 
> ...



how many treatments are you getting out of a charge?


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## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

Hi b.b, watched your video again. Thanks for the comment back. Are you still using this, and mite counts currently. I'm doing also now. Thanks, rich


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

My version of "OAV propane gadget" now has more massive 1" stainless steel threaded plug for wand and digital thermometer with alert function.





















Evaporation (old picture)


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## Beebeard (Apr 27, 2016)

I still use mine. The past 2 seasons I have used thymol in the summer when I pull my honey supers, then I use the OA between thanksgiving and new year. The hives are as close to broodless as they get this time of year. Mite counts stay low through the spring and early summer this way. It’s a system that has kept my bees alive and my schedule a little less stretched.


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