# treating varroa with supers on



## wylie catter (Oct 14, 2014)

Is there any good treatment that can be done with the supers on the hive? I have been fogging with fgmo every seven days, but now i am reading that it is not an effective treatment. I have not done mite counts. I treated with oxalic acid vaporizer in the fall and apiguard.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Why are you treating if you have not even done a mite count. Indiscriminant treating without fundamental knowledge of the product being used is exactly why mites have built up resistance to so many of them. 
I am not trying to bust your chops, but EVERY beekeeper should know and understand procedures and course of action for treating regardless of the means and methodology. Haphazardly dispensing treatments without researching the cause and effect is NEVER wise. Research, develop a sound course of action, and stick to it. In the long run you will be better off.


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## wylie catter (Oct 14, 2014)

Mites were found in the drone comb. And signs of black back bee paralysis are beeing seen, which can be related to a varroa infestation.


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## Levi's Bees (Feb 7, 2014)

any time, honey on or off https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQp9pdAOjdo


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Tenbears said:


> Why are you treating if you have not even done a mite count. Indiscriminant treating without fundamental knowledge of the product being used is exactly why mites have built up resistance to so many of them.
> I am not trying to bust your chops, but EVERY beekeeper should know and understand procedures and course of action for treating regardless of the means and methodology. Haphazardly dispensing treatments without researching the cause and effect is NEVER wise. Research, develop a sound course of action, and stick to it. In the long run you will be better off.


Because one wouldn't want their bees to die of mites and the viruses they bring, so we must treat them no matter if we count or not! With supers on:scratch:, well that is totally another issue


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

The treatment MAQS (Mite-Away Quick Strips) is approved for use when supers are on.

It is a formic acid-based treatment. The treatment period is seven days.

The label allows for a one-strip dose intended for knockdown, and a full, two-stip dose for control. There are some concerns that the full-dose may lead to queen loss, hence the one-strip program. You can read about the use of this product on Randy Oliver's website: www.scientificbeekeeping.com 

I have used both doses of MAQS and have not had a queen loss. I am very careful to make sure I am in the mid-lower end of the acceptable range of air temperatures during the entire treatment (but particularly in the first 3 days), because high temps are associated with more queen loss problems. I had mixed results with the treatment in terms of efficacy, but many, if not most, people report excellent conrtrol using MAQS. I think my experience may be because my hives are unusually large with an extended brood nest, which makes it difficult to get good coverage.

I agree, though, with comment above: I would always base my treatment plans and decisions on frequent, year-round mite monitoring. I don't think that waiting until you see viral diseases is an acceptable practice. And mites seen in uncapped drones (while it is clear evidence of some level of parasitization), is probably a factor in most hives in the US. Learning to do rolls is not hard; sugar rolls are (mostly) non-lethal to the bees. A constant mite drop count on sticky boards - by constant I mean at least once per week year-round - also gives actionable information.

I don't believe FGMO is an effective treatment, from all I have read. 

OAV does work, if done properly. And that means a series of well-timed, multiple treatments during the period when there is brood. A single treatment during the short wndow of broodlessness in the very late fall/ earliest winter is also effective. (There is also the possibilityof using an OA dribble/drench. I can't comment on this because I have not used this because it seems that in certain seasons to be harder on the bees.)

Apiguard works but you can't have the supers on during treatment, and it takes 28 days to complete.

If you are already deep in your build-up and approaching the time when you have drones flying (and thus could get a replacement queen mated if she was harmed by the treatment) and already have started your honey flow, then MAQS may be your best option. I would not use it before you have good queen mating weather, though, because if it did harm your queen you'd be up a creek.

If you are still too chilly for mating, then a series of OAV might be better (3 or 4 treatments each about 5-7 days apart is the currrent folk wisdom here on BS). This has less liklihood of queen loss, and is generally thought to have no bad effect on brood or bees. But you must do the treatments with the supers off as it is not approved for supers-on treatment. I believe you can simply remove the supers for the treatment and then replace them immediately afterward. This is a bigger hassle than just sticking the wand in and treating, however. And always with OAV, conscientious use of the correct Personal Protective Equipment for operator safety is absolutely essential.

I think it's very important to avoid simply being reactive when considering mite treatment. Of course, if you've never treated and/or are faced with an emergency due to a big surge in mites you must act or risk total loss. But outside of that, you need to think ahead of time about what your mite-management plans are when seen in the context of the whole year's cycle. 

Winter bees must be protected starting in August by treating the bees that will care for the winter bees. Spring bees must be protected by going into winter at the lowest mite numbers possible so they are strong enough to raise a lot of foragers for the flow. The bees involved in potential increase/mating plans must be born into a hive with mite numbers low enough to not need treatment during their early life stages. Treatments are best planned so they can occur when you aren't making a honey crop to give you the most flexibility to chose which treatment. 

The above list does not mean that you need to be treating constantly at each of these points during the year, but it means that when working out your program these factors should be considered. Your climate, flow, season, goals (honey or bees?) are all important, individual, factors to put in the equation. Also I think it is important not to rely on a single specific treatment repeated over and over. It's important to change things up.

And in every case the treatments must be applied according to the label so that they maximise their effectivenes in order to avoid building up resistance. 

For me it boils down to:

1) Constantly monitor so you have very current data about the mite populations in your hives/apiary.

2) If you've got mites at actionable levels (which vary trhough the year and from place to place) then you must decide whether to treat, or not.

3) If you're going to treat, chose the product carefully and apply according to instructions.

4) Verify effectiveness by continued monitoring.

5) Once the mites have been (temporarily) controlled, then make the effort to think through what your on-going treatment plans should be. Too many people seem to think it's treat once and then you're done. That just leaves you lurching from one crisis to another, and paradoxically may lead to more treatement. not less, because emergency, stop-gap treatments are needed.

6) Keep on monitoring the mite levels year-round (don't wait for the viral diseases to appear as signals to treat), so you are never faced with an unexpected surge or disease outbreak. You will see it coming and be able to take timely steps to head it off. 

HTH

Enj.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> Because one wouldn't want their bees to die of mites and the viruses they bring, so we must treat them no matter if we count or not! With supers on:scratch:, well that is totally another issue


So you treat weather there are mites or not? and make a decision based on overwintered bees prior to build up without verifying the degree of the problem or if it is current? Treatment with supers on is not the issue, there are products approved for treatment with supers on! I guess if it works for you it is acceptable.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Tenbears said:


> So you treat weather there are mites or not? and make a decision based on overwintered bees prior to build up without verifying the degree of the problem or if it is current? Treatment with supers on is not the issue, there are products approved for treatment with supers on! I guess if it works for you it is acceptable.


Agreed, treatment with supers on is not the issue:scratch: Tenbears, I whole heartedly agree with your post #2.,especially if one, "Researches, develops a sound course of action, & sticks to it. In the long run you will be better off." I think the same can be said if one "haphazardly" choses not to treat, so I guess that makes me a "haphazardly" non mite counter:lpf:


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## wylie catter (Oct 14, 2014)

The general consensus on here seems to be that treating with the oxalic acid vaporizer with the supers on is a bad idea. But a few say it's fine, including the above link to the fat bee man ( thanks for that ). And there are lots of videos on Youtube where people do treat with the vaporizer while supers are on. And I've read that the acid is found in honey naturally and is derived from plants naturally. So im just wondering where the information came from that said it is wrong to do it, other than just repeating what has been heard. I just want to be thorough and not base my opinion on here say. Thanks


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Do NOT treat with OAV with the supers on regardless of what ANYONE says. The EPA and reputable sellers of vaporizers who have done their research, will tell you NO!


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

snl said:


> Do NOT treat with OAV with the supers on regardless of what ANYONE says. The EPA and reputable sellers of vaporizers who have done their research, will tell you NO!


It would be like sprinkling Barkeeper's Friend (a cleanser made of OA) on a plate and then eating off of it without even rinsing. It wouldn't kill you, but who in their right mind would do it?

Formic acid is, at least, a pure vapor at room temperature, so will dissipate. With empty supers, this shouldn't be much of a problem. But with harvestable honey present, I would not be surprised if it left a bad taste. 

You can dust the brood boxes with powdered sugar at any time, I think. It won't do much but it will keep you busy if you think you have to do something right away.


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