# Raising vs. Buying a queen?



## bbrowncods (Oct 10, 2012)

There are those in our bee club that teach buying a queen is better than having a hive raise one. The reasoning is that the success rate for a naturally raised queen making it back from her mating flight(s) is very poor.

Is it safer to just buy one? What do you do?


----------



## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

My opinion, If you buy one, she is ready to lay sooner of course, as long as they accept her. It would only seem natural to lose some queens on mating flights, I just had one return, first time for me, and shes fat and sassy, so Im gonna let em try on their own from now on unless I am in a pinch.


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I figure I can raise them as good as a purchased one, and the adventure of raising them myself is priceless.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Virtually all commercially sold queens experience mating flights. The only alternative is instrumentally inseminated queens, which are relatively expensive due to the human labor.

The significant delay in brood production from allowing a walkaway split to raise their own queen is certainly a factor to consider. But that isn't really as much of a factor if you are just talking about allowing a hive to supercede their own queen. 

There are risks to everything. A purchased and introduced queen could be rejected/killed, especially if there is a virgin queen loose in the hive that you weren't aware of. Cost and availability of purchased queens is a form of 'risk', and if something goes awry in the shipping process you may be left scrambling for alternatives.


I let my bees raise their own queens. But I understand why others choose differently.


----------



## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack;1106275. A purchased and introduced queen could be rejected/killed said:


> Just had a Buckfast get Mauled in my local survivor nuc Rader......
> They will get a chance to raise their own now.........:lpf:


----------



## hideawayranch (Mar 5, 2013)

One of the major benefits of raising your own queens is your queen and following brood will be stronger and more suited to the weather in your area, etc.


----------



## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Last year my three early queens all made it back from mating but my late queens went missing.

This year so far I have had one out of three go missing, but that one may have left with a swarm. I am waiting to see about a fourth. It is really cool when you first see the new queen they made and her first eggs or larvae. 

I don't know exactly what the difference is between the timing but it seemed to matter. I wonder if it is the dragonfly population is nonexistent right now but up later in summer. 

I am still learning but right now I am enjoying letting them requeen themselves. If that fails I can purchase a replacement or combine. Nice to have options.


----------



## CajunBee (May 15, 2013)

bbrowncods said:


> There are those in our bee club that teach buying a queen is better than having a hive raise one.


Do any of those club members sell queens, per chance?


----------



## Thershey (Mar 12, 2014)

First year, I purchased queens. Had one arrive crispy, had one balled and another never layed an egg.
Now I am raising my own and the overall experience of beekeeping is greatly enhanced.

Also, you might check out mdasplitter.com and learn about the benefits of mite control thru the brood break that comes from raising queens.


----------



## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

If you have more than 1 hive and know other hives are in the area raise your own.

buying queens and bees is silly


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

All good points! However, sometimes you want to change/improve genetics in your hives and buying a queen is the fastest way to do that. Last year I introduced VSH genetics into my hives for the first time. What a difference! So, yes, sometimes buying a queen is a very good investment indeed.

JMO

Rusty


----------



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Local queens can be great - you need to consider the flying conditions and available drone populations for mating if you choose to make your own. A purchased queen does have introduction risk, but most generally they are mated and ready to go. If you do some research before buying your queens your odds of being happy with the purchased queens increases.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>There are those in our bee club that teach buying a queen is better than having a hive raise one. The reasoning is that the success rate for a naturally raised queen making it back from her mating flight(s) is very poor.

I would say the success rate of purchased queens is deplorable. I'd rather risk a mating flight, the odds are better.

The better argument is probably time, but if you figure it takes you a lot of trouble to find someone to sell you a queen, a few days to a few weeks to get them to ship the queen and then sometimes it takes two weeks for those queens to start laying, and then you have the issue of acceptance, I think it's easier and just as fast to let them raise their own. That's not counting the improvement in quality and that you get a locally mated queen.

>Is it safer to just buy one? 

No.

>What do you do? 

I let them raise their own.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

bbrowncods said:


> There are those in our bee club that teach buying a queen is better than having a hive raise one. The reasoning is that the success rate for a naturally raised queen making it back from her mating flight(s) is very poor.
> 
> Is it safer to just buy one? What do you do?


Four queens "purchased" this year. One was rejected the first night. The second was killed or died shorter after laying (laid some worker brood then went drone layer). The other two are doing OK, but have only been hived for ten days.

If I can get some to survive I'm hoping to maybe requeen later this year with a Bush queen and get them rolling into the winter with something I'm a bit more confident in. Of the four queens I got one ONE was Carniolan... all were supposed to be.

My dad kept bees for a good number of years with my grandpa (15-20 years maybe?). He said they NEVER had problems with package bees having bad queens or poorly mated queens or drone layers or immediate supercedures. I've tried explaining to him that from what I've read, the package bee industry isn't what it used to be. Of course he just kind of dismisses me because of "how it was".


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> the package bee industry isn't what it used to be

It's not...


----------



## USMCEOD (Jan 5, 2014)

RayMarler said:


> I figure I can raise them as good as a purchased one, and the adventure of raising them myself is priceless.


If it's not priceless, it probably won't cost $25 plus shipping... buying everything takes the fun out of it. Start by just doing a split and let the bees make a queen or 2.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

"At the outset, I shall undoubtedly be met by those inevitable “Yankee questions” - Does Queen-Rearing pay? Would it not pay me better to stick to honey-production, and buy the few queens which I need, as often as is required?

"I might answer, does it pay to kiss your wife? to look at anything beautiful? to like a golden Italian Queen? to eat apples or gooseberries? or anything else agreeable to our nature? is the gain in health, strength, and happiness, which this form of recreation secures, to be judged by the dollar-and-cent stand-point of the world?

"Can the pleasure which comes to one while looking at a beautiful Queen and her bees, which have been brought up to a high stand-point by their owner, be bought? Is the flavor of the honey that you have produced, or the keen enjoyment that you have had in producing it, to be had in the market?

"In nothing more than in Queen-Rearing, can we see the handiwork of Him who designed that we should be climbing up to the Celestial City, rather than groveling here with a “muck-rake” in our hands (as in “Pilgrim's Progress”), trying to rake in the pennies, to the neglect of that which is higher and more noble. There is something in working for better Queens which is elevating, and will lead one out of self, if we will only study it along the many lines of improvement which it suggests. I do not believe that all of life should be spent in looking after the “almighty dollar;” nor do I think that our first parents bustled out every morning, with the expression seen on so many beekeepers' faces, which seem to say, “Time is Money” The question, it seems to me, in regard to our pursuit in life, should not be altogether, “How much money is there in it?” but, “Shall we enjoy a little bit of Paradise this side of Jordan."--G.M. Doolittle, Scientific Queen Rearing

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdoolittle.htm


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

As Rusty pointed out, there are very good reasons on why you might want to buy queens raised elsewhere. Genetics are obviously the key issue and can have a very dramatic change to your beekeeping success. If you already have good stock, and I believe that its not that common, then by all means make your own. However, some newbees wouldn't know good stock if they were staring at it, but hopefully you've got the basic skills to properly assess a queen for breeding potential. Queen rearing is a basic skill that all serious beekeepers should attempt to acquire. Not having good control of your mating area is another potential reason on why you might want to buy commercially produced queens. I see you're in Norfolk. I caught a swarm in Norfolk about 6 years ago that turned out to be the meanest bees I ever encountered (did I say EVER!!), so not all feral bees are good bees to breed your new queen with, particularly if you live in the city. Losses on mating vary quite dramatically throughout the season. Right now, prior to the build up of natural predators, mating success is very good, but come July and August, there can be a dramatic decrease in successful returns. 

Not quite sure of the reason behind the MB statement: "I would say the success rate of purchased queens is deplorable." I've gotten over 50 queens in the last year, and haven't lost a single one - just got new pure VSH last week and she looks great. I've been getting queens for 14 years (a few each year), and sure some are lost, but "deplorable" - hardly. This post is about queens not specifically package queens. Package queens seem to be much more variable, but there are good suppliers for them as well.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Not quite sure of the reason behind the MB statement

Try post #14 by jwcarlson. That seems to be typical in recent years. I'm glad you've had better luck.


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Michael Bush said:


> Try post #14 by jwcarlson.


Not clear to me if he's talking about package queens or other. I'll admit that some queens in packages have had "issues". However, when you buy quality from reputable suppliers, your chances are greatly improved. Add to that some basic skills in requeening, like the early identification of acceptance issues, etc, then requeenings would be much more successful. Requeening is a skill, and not every new beekeeper is going to get it right the first few tries. I recall back a good number of years ago when our club had a master beekeeper come into our area for demonstration of requeening. The club selected one of my yards to do the practical part, and watching the master do his work was extremely instructive, and resulted in major improvements in my success rates. Perhaps some of the issues are purely technique?


----------



## Santa Caras (Aug 14, 2013)

for me.....i dont live in an area that has a concentration of commercial beekeepers so any virgin queen is kinda on her own and good luck and a thumbs up with meeting drone. Other issue is the Africanized bee genetics that are in Florida. If left on their own....could well bring that back into the apiary and that sperm stock is so strong could well replace everything I have now. I'm going to be doing some summer splits but i think I'm buying my queens for those.
On a side note: At Christmas time the kids gave me a certificate "Good Toward Purchase of One Queen Bee". They thought i could start a hive with just that. I'll be happy to pull that out real soon!


----------



## Syawar08 (Dec 17, 2013)

Hello i am new to this field so could you please answer my question and forgive me if it is a foolish question.
How can we come to know whether a queen is mated or unmated while checking a hive?

Thank you


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

And then, of course, there's importing a few queens, and thereafter raising your own, and keeping them in nucs, so you have them available when you need them in your production colonies. Easier introduction, they're very fresh, you can even introduce them along with their entire entourage (the nuc and its resources), and repeat the process, letting the nucs take the chance of failed queen replacement/production - easier to remedy. 

Meanwhile you can graft new queens from your best colonies (selection).


----------



## garusher (May 28, 2012)

Syawar08 said:


> Hello i am new to this field so could you please answer my question and forgive me if it is a foolish question.
> How can we come to know whether a queen is mated or unmated while checking a hive?
> 
> Thank you


by seeing eggs.


----------



## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Raise your own! So much better and very inexpensive. Plus you get a nice stamp on your bee "man" card haha.

Seriously though it is the most fun "I think" in beekeeping and helps give the beekeeper more knowledge of how the hive works. Make strong 2 frame (deep) splits and put queen cells in. Or you can let hives raise their own but the percentages are much lower. No one that I know makes a living off of bees by just dividing a hive and letting them raise their own. In my experience small queens and low percentages are achieved.

Raising queens cells in a strong 5 frames system works well, quickly, and is easy enough to produce a hundred queen cells or more.


----------



## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Syawar08 said:


> Hello i am new to this field so could you please answer my question and forgive me if it is a foolish question.
> How can we come to know whether a queen is mated or unmated while checking a hive?
> 
> Thank you


Also by seeing if the colony is bringing in pollen.


----------



## jdmidwest (Jul 9, 2012)

My theory of thought is that if you raise your own, you have better control of what goes in and out of your hives. You buy a queen from another state, she could be carrying problems like varroa mites or other things to infect your hives. Buy a package and you might bring some small hive beetles in too.


----------



## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

The first and only time I bought queens, I spent $65 shipped for two queens. One survived, and the other probably got injured when the bees killed all the attendants through the cage and then absconded.

I waited several days for the injured queen to recover and maybe lay until she eventually died.

The surviving queen didn't lay for two weeks, and was sporadic until week three.

So I spent $65 and had to wait just as long as if I had used a cloake board or some other method to get the bees to make queen cells.

Never again.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> Also by seeing if the colony is bringing in pollen.


Interesting, so why then does my queenless hive bring in pollen ?


----------



## Needo (Sep 10, 2013)

Harley Craig said:


> Interesting, so why then does my queenless hive bring in pollen ?


I was wandering if your queenless colony has any queen cells. I noticed that my nuc didn't start bring in pollen in mass until they finally got their queen cells. This was after I added two more frames of brood and eggs. It may have just been coincidence.


----------



## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Laying workers, or you have a queen


----------



## rmaxwell (Apr 23, 2014)

Syawar08 said:


> Hello i am new to this field so could you please answer my question and forgive me if it is a foolish question.
> How can we come to know whether a queen is mated or unmated while checking a hive?
> 
> Thank you


I have that very question as well. I didn't have a problem earlier in the year when queens were laying right and left. However, now that we're in a dearth and eggs are not all the rage of the colony, how can you be sure you are queen-right? 

I have a split that was raising a queen a while back but it wasn't successful (didn't make it back). I introduced additional eggs and larvae several weeks ago for a second attempt. Queen cells (capped) were present last week but have since hatched. This colony was an even split and has four mediums worth of bees after the split (more like a divide). Since we're in a dearth and the new queen may not lay when she returns mated, how is an easy way to make sure you are queen-right? I could go through every box, frame by frame but, there's no guarantee I could find her even though I've not had much trouble finding them in the past. That would take time and I don't want the hive open that long in a dearth. Thoughts/suggestions? Thanks.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Not everyone believes that hives with unmated queens don't collect pollen. However, I can find multiple references that pollen collection activity is _*reduced *_in hives with virgin queens.

One reference:


> Higher foraging activity with less pollen collection was found in colonies headed by virgin queens than colonies headed by mated queens while lower foraging activity and pollen collection were found in queenless colonies than in colonies with a mated or virgin queen (Free et al. 1985b).
> 
> http://www.agriculturejournals.cz/publicFiles/113607.pdf


 - and -


> ABSTRACT. Virgin queens are as effective as mated laying queens at inhibiting colonies from rearing queens but not from producing queen cell cups. Colonies without brood produce fewer queen cell cups than similar colonies that have brood. Colonies without queens forage much less and collect less pollen than with either a mated or virgin queen. [HIGHLIGHT]Colonies with virgin queens forage as much as those with mated queens but collected less pollen. [/HIGHLIGHT]
> 
> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-3032.1985.tb00047.x/abstract


The full document at the second link above (Wiley) is behind a pay wall, and I do not have access to read the full document, but the abstract quoted is pretty clear.

.


----------



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> ...... However, sometimes you want to change/improve genetics in your hives and buying a queen is the fastest way to do that. Last year I introduced VSH genetics into my hives for the first time. What a difference! So, yes, sometimes buying a queen is a very good investment indeed.....Rusty


Some good advice here if you want to give your hives a leg up on mites.


----------



## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

I prefer to raise my own. The process is straight forward and actually easy to follow. I choose from my best and graft from them. However like all breeders, i like to import new genetics into the fold from time to time and do buy a queen here and there from other breeders. 

The way I see it is simple... If you have the resources to be able to raise your own queens, do so. If not, try to buy locally raised queens unless you are looking for something like new genetics or VSH stock, etc.. Then go with a trusted and dependable source.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> The reasoning is that the success rate for a naturally raised queen making it back from her mating flight(s) is very poor.

If the success rate for naturally raised queens was that poor there would be no bees. I would say it's very good. Certainly in most places at most times it's higher than 75% and sometimes approaches 99%.


----------



## Margot1d (Jun 23, 2012)

bbrowncods said:


> There are those in our bee club that teach buying a queen is better than having a hive raise one. The reasoning is that the success rate for a naturally raised queen making it back from her mating flight(s) is very poor./QUOTE]
> 
> How urban are you? I was told the same thing by my bee club. My mentor swears queens won't mate well in the city. I had three of four nucs mate this summer. This looks well mated to me.


----------



## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

The success rate numbers depend on the time of year. Again if it was that easy all the time everyone would raise their own queens via walk away splits. Nature does not need a high percentage of queens to mate and survive, just some. During the honey flow better numbers might be achieved but during the rest of the season it is a different story. 

Possibly up north where the season is short and the flows concentrated it is easier. Not in this part of Tennessee. Here I can get 75% to come back off of grafted queens. I tried 6 walk away splits this year (correctly done) and got 2 queens. One is a runt and one looks great. I have tried walk away's several times over the last ten years and the conclusion I have come to is that they are a unneeded risk when it is very easy to procure ones own queen cells.


----------



## Dave1958 (Mar 25, 2013)

RayMarler said:


> I figure I can raise them as good as a purchased one, and the adventure of raising them myself is priceless.


I agree. However. I'm also learning that you can pick a queen with the qualities you want, but you aren't necessarily guarenteed that the daughter will exhibit the same or if she is a good queen you also aren't sure of her capacities until she goes through the winter. Ive learner a lot!


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

bbrowncods said:


> There are those in our bee club that teach buying a queen is better than having a hive raise one. The reasoning is that the success rate for a naturally raised queen making it back from her mating flight(s) is very poor.
> 
> Is it safer to just buy one? What do you do?


There is nothing wrong with purchasing a queen from a reputable queen producer - chances are fairly good that your hive will be back in business, sooner than raising another of their own replacement queens.

Though it could be even better to plan ahead. Raise some queens, mate them in nucleus colonies, then keep them available for those colonies that need an emergency queen replacement. They can even be used for colony increase, if desired. An additional plus is they are locally produced, and if they appear substandard, you can raise another one to replace them with - so you can be sure your standby queens are the best possible.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Not everyone believes that hives with unmated queens don't collect pollen. However, I can find multiple references that pollen collection activity is _*reduced *_in hives with virgin queens.
> 
> One reference:
> 
> ...



Oh I absolutely agree that with a virgin queen or no queen Pollen collecting will be reduced but it was stated that pollen collection is a way to tell if you have a mated queen and that is simply not true


----------

