# LUS Bees



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Does Dee Lusby sell queens? Does anyone else sell queens derived from her stock?

Does anyone have experience with them? Does anyone own any?


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Sol, it is now africanized derived stock that she has. She was selling queens and bees but the State of Arizona made her quit a few years back. I do not know yet if she has been allowed to resume sales. With the death of her husband, I know she is short handed on help like so many commercial beekeepers. Dee is and Ed was close friends of mine. TK


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Dee spoke at the Treatment-Free conference in Massachusetts last summer. She is not selling queens but I believe that she would take exception to the claim that her bees are Africanized. She is 100% small cell and hence, her bees are small. From what I understand, the "powers that be" equate small with being Africanized and that is the sole bit of "evidence" preventing her from selling queens.

Wayne


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I know she takes exception to the claim that her bees are Africanized, I've read her writings.

As far as I'm aware, and I could be wrong, Africanized bees are identified primarily by morphological characteristics. Though there are admissions that this methodology is not perfect due to other bee strains, DNA tests are expensive.

Additionally, even if they were Africanized, they can be tamed. In Brazil, bees have been 're-domesticated' as not all African colonies exhibit the typical behavior. This invasion is something that the beekeeping industry will survive.

Thanks for the information fellas. I think I will focus on getting a hold of Michael Bush's stock. He is known to sell from time to time. I'm looking for some darker bees not treated with anything and with good wintering characteristics.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WiredForStereo said:


> Africanized bees are identified primarily by morphological characteristics.


Behavior and Physical Characteristics and then DNA are used to ID % Africanization. Exceptionally agressive behavior is often the first indicator, which leads one to suspect the possibility of Africanization. Then samples are taken for Wing Veination Comparison testing and then DNA testing to establish Positive or Negative Africanization and also Africanization to what percent.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

In 2001 (I think) I brought home some nucs from the Lusby's. I gave some to a prominent figure in beekeepingdom and kept four myself. I found them to be too aggressive/hot for bees kept in a residential area. I know Dennis had a similar experience, as did the person who received the other nucs. Didn't get a chance to see them perform over a period of years.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Thanks for that information Barry. I had wished I could have gotten a hold of a few queens to add them to the collection since I started beekeeping.

Do you know what kind of equipment Dee generally wears to work those bees? I don't use gloves and I wouldn't want to need to.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

WiredForStereo;629908Do you know what kind of equipment Dee generally wears to work those bees? I don't use gloves and I wouldn't want to need to.[/QUOTE said:


> This video should answer your questions:
> 
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5106409524033235587#


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Yea, no bare hands. The video won't lie.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

WiredForStereo said:


> Do you know what kind of equipment Dee generally wears to work those bees? I don't use gloves and I wouldn't want to need to.


Full hazmat suit with gloves. Here's a video of an apiary inspection with her gigantic hives.

Wayne.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Thanks for the video.

I'm watching it now, those bees are definitely way hotter than my hottest hive has ever been. The video description does say that they were not being attacked which one would certainly expect from African bees. They certainly aren't calm.

She tosses deeps around like they're empty. She'd sure whoop me in a fair fight.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Those deeps have a lot of brood in them. "Wall to wall" as Dee says. Brood weighs less than honey.
I still have a lot of respect for Dee and consider her a friend even if we don't see eye to eye on everything. I hope that is clear.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WiredForStereo said:


> She tosses deeps around like they're empty. She'd sure whoop me in a fair fight.


I wouldn't dare guess which person is Dee or who isn't. How can one tell?

I would also say, that the way they are handling those supers thhey certainly aren't by any means full of honey. And, like Barry writes, brood is lighter than honey. That's why it is found below.

So, what's your aversion to gloves? Or is it having bees which require the wearing of them that you don't want?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

It still weighs more than empty!

I fell out of a tree when I was a kid and kinda broke my back. I get regular twinges when I lift deeps. But I still do it.

I notice the bees are running around quite a bit. The sound they're making is something I would try to avoid as well. Dean makes a good point about African bees not building large hives.

I think I'd still like to have some, for drones if nothing else. However, I don't know well they would handle the humidity and wetness we have in this subtropical climate.

OH, she's got pink boxes, just like I do! Oops, shouldn't have said that.

Mark, Dee is the taller one, deeps are heavy, and gloves limit tactile sensation.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WiredForStereo said:


> It still weighs more than empty!


Actually that was my first thought when I saw how easily the cover came off and the top box looked so light. I imagine the cover came off so easily because of the heat.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Africanized bee can build large hives with proper management. They also dribble off the comb and take to the air if you try to split them frame by frame. They also like to attack the camera because it is black. We used to call it the NIkkon camera test. All these traits I noticed on the video. You can see these same traits where ever AHB bees are kept. You will even see some of these traits in The Southeast, as the AHB genetic base increases, including in my own bees. TK


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WiredForStereo said:


> It still weighs more than empty!
> 
> I think I'd still like to have some, for drones if nothing else. However, I don't know well they would handle the humidity and wetness we have in this subtropical climate.
> 
> Mark, Dee is the taller one, deeps are heavy, and gloves limit tactile sensation.


Yes, they do. Fact not in dispute. Point missed.

Why would you want the drones? What would the value of having them bee? I don't think there would be any problem for them where you live. They might just thrive. I doubt that they are so geographically specific.

Thanks, I didn't know which person was which. Apparently you know these two in the video. I don't.

Yes, deeps can be heavy and gloves limit tactile sensation, but, having handled thousands of deeps full of honey w/ gloves I can tell you that one gets used to it.

I prefer working w/out gloves for that same reason. But I use gloves when I want to get thru hives more quickly and w/ a minimum number of stings. And under other sercumstances. I currently use Nitrile Gloves.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Adding Dee's stock to my own would be for genetic diversity. Southern Arizona bees are more unrelated to my N Cali and Georgia bees. It's the same reason I want Michael Bush's.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The first time I went down to see Dee and Ed (who was still with us then) they both worked them without gloves. We went from yard to yard but didn't do a lot of intensive work with any of them. Some were quiet and gentle. Some were not. All were workable, but some were hotter than I would like. When we went after the organic conference a couple of times I have seen less of the gentle ones and more of the hot ones, but they were still workable, albeit hotter than I would tolerate in my yards. But after watching Dee throw some boxes around and the bees getting pretty upset, someone asked me how they would respond to "normal treatment". I grabbed a smoker and said, "let's find out". We smoked a hive lightly, opened it gently, pulled it apart gently and pulled out brood and examined it without a single bee pinging us or coming after us. Sometimes Dee is just in a hurry and doesn't take the time to be gentle. I don't know how my bees would act if I was as rough as she is sometimes, but I doubt they would be very happy.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Barry said:


> I still have a lot of respect for Dee


I too have a lot of respect for Dee and her late husband Ed. I was fortunate to be able to find her POV pages here on Beesource when I first started to investigate beekeeping in the fall of 2002.

In fact, my general practice has mimicked hers since the beginning. That's why I keep hives of 5 deeps year round, keep unlimited broodnests, use small cell foundation, and don't treat at all.

I have had to make regional adjustments. For instance, more ventilation is needed here because of higher humidity.

Dee is a pioneer, and I have no doubt that her contributions will echo throughout history, in similar fashion to Root, Langstroth, Brother Adam and others.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Michael, your observation about the way one works a hive is important to know. And the differences in bee reaction to the two ways they were worked is interesting.

Many of us who kept bees " back when" (I'm thinking early 1980's and before) had hot hives at times. What concerns me is that today, when someone mentions a hot hive, the immediate conclusion is "Africanized" when that may not be the case. Are we doing new beeks and possible beeks a disservice when some folks say you can work honeybees in shorts and a t-shirt, for example? Are we leading folks to unrealistic expectations? 

Now I'm not saying we should tolerate truly hot, and especially not Africanized, colonies. I'm just wondering if we're not encouraging unrealistic expectations regarding a stinging insect. Personally I'd love to be able to work bees in August in shorts and t shirt, no gloves or veil, and have them gentle as lambs. But...they do come with a stinger.
Regards,
Steven


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Sol, if you wait just another year, you will have Dee's strain of bees right at your doorstep. There are several counties in Arkansas that have reported AHB finds in them. Personally, I do not like HOT European bees and I surely do not want to speed up the spread of AHB any faster than its natural migration.That is why we will be bringing in New Zealand stock to mitigate these genetics in my area. Why you would want drone stock from potentially derived AHB stocklines is beyond me??? The wild bees all around DEES operation have been tested by the USDA At the TUCSON BEE LAB and have been found to be 100% Africanized stock. So what do you think her stock mates with if they supersede??? TED


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Mark, I'm the one filming, my wife and Dee are the women working these hives. 

We've been out again with these bees, and even with a film crew (2 cameras and a boom), and at least 15 people in the yard, only the first hive was smoked at all, and most didn't have gloves on. It was early in the season for detailed inspections, but we were removing boxes and checking the size of the cluster.

deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WiredForStereo said:


> Dee is a pioneer, and I have no doubt that her contributions will echo throughout history, in similar fashion to Root, Langstroth, Brother Adam and others.


Pionneeer? In what way? To be in the company of those you mentioned, it would have to be some pretty big contribution(s).


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Pionneeer? In what way? (s).


Just guessing, but suspect he is referring to their small cell operation. But they were not the first... Huber I believe.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I considered mentioning Huber, but didn't. 
She does have her own breed of bees, LUS Bees. That's what the thread is about.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

She may have her own stock, and I know where some of that stocks bloodlines came from--Bolling bee company, Greenville, Alabama but what does that stock mate with when it supersedes?? TED


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

The Africanization of Dee Lusby's bees has been discussed. Let's move on please.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Ted -

Are you saying she has brought those stocks into her current outfit or that she/they did this many years ago? I would find it odd for her to have done this in the last 15 years.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Bill Gafford, Dee and Ed Lusby were the very best of friends. The Lusbys spent a lot of time in Greenville Alabama with Bill at his residence, who was the last of the Mnt Gray Caucasian breeders--Bolling Bee Company. I know for a fact that Bill gave them stock about 9 years ago. Also he gave them stock a year before Ed died. It was through Bill that I personally became friends with the Lusbys. And it was in Greenville that we worked on small cell hives trying to shrink the mountain grays down under the direction of the Lusbys. It was like trying to shrink Godzilla down because the Mnt Grays are some of the biggest Apis Mellifera bees in the world. Sadly, Bill and Ed are both gone now. It is a DEFINITE YES, there are Mnt Gray bloodlines in her bees. You can ask her next time you see her. Tell her an old friend, Ted Kretschmann, sends a hearty hello!!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Also, remember AHB is not a pure strain anyway it's a hybrid that was created, and as such will show to various extents in a hive.

Personally, although those bees in the video were hotter than I would ever own, considering the way they were handled i didn't think they were THAT bad, after all I've heard about africanised bees.

Used to see much worse than that when we had AMM in my country.


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

I don't enjoy working bees that hot. I have had good hives that were hot (not that hot) that I requeened because they have to be worked so different from the other bees in the same yard.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> I know for a fact that Bill gave them stock about 9 years ago. Also he gave them stock a year before Ed died.


I knew about their connection with Bill. Just surprises me that they would introduce other bees knowing how long and hard they have worked breding their local stock. Interesting.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well I'm surprised they would consider those bees worth having. I would simply refuse to have such bees, regardless of any other redeeming features. Also, from the reading I've done on AHB genetics, they will likely continue to get worse.

Also, for Dee, is it these bees that give the the disease resistance, or the small cells.

Better be small cells, cos on adivice recieved here, I've just bought enough small cell foundation to make some more SC hives.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Good golly, that is hotter than i want to work.
Just watched the video.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> Mark, I'm the one filming, my wife and Dee are the women working these hives.
> deknow


Did the covers come off so easily because of the heat? Or were they not glued down by the bees? What's the propolis like out there?


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I believe it is the stock that dee created from the different strains and races that were blended together over the years that is resistant. You add the "local flavor" that is flying around, you get one tough bee. A little hot but tough. TK


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Can LUS Bees weather the storm? After everything is africanized, will hers still be around? How many years will that take, and will she still be around?


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

Thought I'd share a little of my Lusbee experience. This is a long post. But it's a necessary read for anyone thinking about getting Lusbees.

I bought several nucs from the Lusby's. The bees were very prolific, easily controlled with smoke under normal circumstances and the most vicious bees I've ever worked. And I've worked plenty of them as a commercial beekeeper.

Prolific? Those nucs filled almost three deeps with bees and brood from March till the end of May. And in Wyoming, March and half of April don't count.  I'd find two boxes filled with solid frames of sealed brood, with less than a cup of bees on each frame. And the queen working on half of the third box.

Those bees would lay up brood regardless of cluster size. Remember it's still snows here until the end of May. And that unprotected brood would hatch, much to my surprise.

Smoke? With the proper use of smoke before opening hives, the bees behaved just like a slightly hot Eurobee hive would. Veil and gloves were required to avoid stings when hives were worked in a normal way. Minor intrusions, could be quickly done with smoke, but without a veil under ideal conditions.

Vicious? Let me tell you this story. It was mid summer. The hives were three deep stories tall and filled with brood and bees. Having a few spare moments on Saturday, I loaded my truck with supers and headed for the yard. Beautiful day. Perfect for working the bees.

I arrived at the beeyard and discovered I'd left my smoker behind. No inspections needed. Just a veil and suit to keep the sticky stuff off my cloths. I'd just gently pop the covers and set a super on if needed. No problem. I'd done it before with lots of other hives, as I was a commercial beekeeper and this was just my test yard.

So, I worked the non-Lusbees that way. Not a single bee took notice of me. And it was done quickly, in less than 10 minutes.

Now for the Lusbee part of the yard. I gently started to pry one cover off. There was an instant roar and pain in my ankles. I looked down and my socks were covered by stinging bees. No cloth was visible. The bees came out the entrance much like a swarm would. In less than 5 seconds pandemonium much like those videos show. And yes they were attacking! 

I gently set the lid back down on the that hive and retreated to the cab of my truck. In a couple of minutes all the Lusbee hives were extremely agitated. The bees attacked anything black. Anything that moved. Anything that smelled or seemed unusual to them.

Ever seen bees rob honey off a truck bed or frame? That's just how it looked as they attempted to sting the black plastic molding around my truck window! They couldn't push each other out of the way fast enough.

Ten minutes later the bees were killing robin sized and smaller birds as they flew near the beeyard. I watched birds flying at about 30 foot elevation and 100 feet from the beeyard go into evasive flight followed by what looked like very large drone comets. But they weren't drones. And I watched those birds fall helplessly to ground and die. Larger, faster birds escaped but got stung up in the process. Ever seen that with your hot Eurobees?

So, I moved the truck across the pasture about 1/4 mile away hoping things would calm down. It didn't. So, I moved about twice that far away. Lost most of the following bees but not all. I could see the window trim. But still couldn't leave the truck without veil, suit and gloves.

Well, time cures everything right? Not in this case. I'd drive back toward the yard and check the response. Not at 2 hours. Not at 4 hours. Not at 6 hours. I would have killed all those bees on the spot. But didn't have the means. And couldn't readily get any.

The bees were so vicious that I was afraid to leave the area. That beeyard was about 3/4 mile from the nearest road. And people on horses, bikes, tractors freely used that farm road. And someone might even take the dirt road by my beeyard! I had to stay and warn or provide cab space for anyone vulnerable. I know that anyone walking by that yard unprotected would have been killed by those bees!

It was almost 10 hours later, just after sunset, that it was safe to leave the area! Try those bees in your backyard!

Bet you can't guess what happened the next day when I returned to that yard.  The beeyard was much like it was before I worked it the previous day. I had my smoker and could work the Lusbees much like one would work a hot Eurobee hive. No pleasant, but doable. 

Anyway, could I chance leaving bees like that? Would you? What would happen if a couple of farm kinds trailed some cows through there and a cow knocked a Lusbee hive over? What about a kid with a sling shot? Or some older, curious fellow on a bicycle?

Those queens were destroyed. And I made splits from the brood and got some Mountain Grey Caucasian queens from Bill Gafford, when he still ran the business. But that's another old story. 

I'm not the only one with Lusbees who has had that kind of intense experience. It can get even worse. A Florida sideline beekeeper, who liked to position his comb by cell bottom orientation, ended up with bees so aggressive that he couldn't work them at all! And so he got the state of Florida involved. Want to know about AHB being discovered and the state of Florida? It's a wonder someone didn't go to jail over that one. But like the head of the Florida Bee Police said, "We've all got mud on our hands". 

Use your head. Get as much info as you can from several diverse sources. Not every contradicting source is part of a conspiracy. Make sure it's legal. The consequences of getting Lusbees can be much worse that just a stung up beekeeper.

Still want the cool-aid.  You'd better be an experienced beekeeper who has routinely worked hundreds of hot hives. Can instantly take a hundred stings from one hot hive and not bat an eye, loose his cool or pass out from some kind of reaction. And you'd better have an isolated beeyard so far out in the brush you need a GPS to find it because nobody else can. Always take a gallon of soapy water with you.

And if after you've done all that small cell stuff so that your Lusbees are really happy bees, and then you have an experience like mine; take a sprayer full of soapy water and first spray yourself. Spray it in your eyes, ears, hair and mouth so that you have clean perspective and then you can clearly say, "What have I done!". Then spray those hives and kill those bees!

Regards - Dennis
Now I've kicked the Lusbee hive, let's see what happens!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ha Ha! Great story!

So they're not africanised then?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Thanks for your experience Dennis, the longer the post the better. Don't shy away from long posts unless you're just copy/pasting.

And don't worry about kicking the hive, we don't do arguments here anymore. It's civil or it's gone. Kinda like your yard I guess. ;-)


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

Just a curious observation, I'd forgot to mention.

The Lusbees and to a lesser extent, Russian bees are keenly aware of the environment surrounding their hives. They become accustomed to the sights, odors, movements that are common. And after some batting, stinging, etc. will learn to ignore those common elements that initially irritate them.

About 2 hours into that frenzy noted above, a horse, one of several in the same pasture as my beeyard ambled across the pasture toward me. Oh man! Now I'm going to have to pay for that dead horse. But not so.

That horse grazed through the beeyard. Snorted off a couple of stings and went on grazing. I was amazed. Those bees essentially ignored a smelly, hairy, breathing, moving horse. Yet they would attack the birds!

But those horses, after getting run out of the beeyard, a couple of times, early in the summer, quickly became part of the scene. And those bees recognized them and didn't bothered them after that.

So, Lusbees can seem very normal when they perceive everything as normal. But interfer with what is normal and they are very easily set off. And once set off are uncontrollable.

Regards - Dennis


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

Bees that hot are a liability, not an asset.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Generally speaking true, but, in the past, in the olden days, meaning the 1980s and before, those "hot" bees were the producers. A friend, just last night, at our BBQ/Beekeepers Mtng, told us about getting queens from Charles Mraz, Mr. Apitherapy, which were mean mean bees. They were also great producers. They were also in yards far off the road. The old time traditional location of bee yards belonging to commercial beekeepers in NY State, were as far as one could drive off of the road and then a little farther. Maybe for more than one reason, security and so the public wouldn't encounter them.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> A friend, just last night, at our BBQ/Beekeepers Mtng, told us about getting queens from Charles Mraz, Mr. Apitherapy, which were mean mean bees. They were also great producers.


Were they queens from Charlies NY and VT apiaries, or queens raised in Harrells NC? I've been in plenty of Mraz yards and not seen mean bees. I've had the queens raised in NC from Charlie's breeders and they were, put your veil on before getting out of the truck mean.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> I've had the queens raised in NC from Charlie's breeders and they were, put your veil on before getting out of the truck mean.


That's just what Bill said, "put your veil on before getting out of the truck". So maybe they were.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

By chance, does anyone know if Mraz was in partnership with a "Hubert Cannady" over in Harrells?


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Charlie spent a lot of time in central and south america.....TK


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No idea Herb. Maybe Mike knows. It could be entirely possible that Charles Mraz and Hubert Cannaday knew each other and raised bees together in Harrels. "Mean" bees were somewhat common, coming out of the Caolina Swamps years ago. Maybe it had to do w/ the splits making their own queens and mating w/ the swamp bees year after year.

Such as "Englehardts Hornets", as apiary Inspectors called thge bees that were in the hives of the Engelhardts, who ran bees in NY and SC years ago.


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