# Best Way to Combine Large Queenless Hive with Small Nuc



## dlbrightjr

I don't know the right way to do it, but, I can tell you what I've been doing. I would first make sure there are not any laying workers. If there are not I would shake all the bees down into the bottom box pulling the best open comb up into the top. I would then just do a paper combine with the best open comb and the frames with the queen above the newspaper.


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## Billboard

I would put a single screen between the 2 hives with entrances in opposite directions till they are good friends. Id say a week then take out the screen.


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## Billboard

dlbrightjr said:


> I don't know the right way to do it, but, I can tell you what I've been doing. I would first make sure there are not any laying workers. If there are not I would shake all the bees down into the bottom box pulling the best open comb up into the top. I would then just do a paper combine with the best open comb and the frames with the queen above the newspaper.


Theres always a laying worker, even in queen right hives. Your doing more work thats not necessary. Imo


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## dlbrightjr

Billboard said:


> Theres always a laying worker, even in queen right hives. Your doing more work thats not necessary. Imo


I'm a little confused. I've seen it stated over and over that you can't just add a queen to hives with laying workers. Not true?? A paper combine is more work than adding a screen and taking it out? The bees remove the paper for me. I don't have to go back.


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## Saltybee

Do you have more bees than time? If not then take your time. If you have the equipment several newspaper combines, nuc over nuc. Start with one or 2 frames every few days, until your queenright is larger than your queenless.

How long queenless, the longer the harder to combine. Yeah the odds are you will get away with multiple methods if they have not been long queenless. Feeling lucky?


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## dlbrightjr

Saltybee said:


> Do you have more bees than time? If not then take your time. If you have the equipment several newspaper combines, nuc over nuc. Start with one or 2 frames every few days, until your queenright is larger than your queenless.
> 
> How long queenless, the longer the harder to combine. Yeah the odds are you will get away with multiple methods if they have not been long queenless. Feeling lucky?



I must be lucky. I've done several this way. Are paper combines really that risky? Is it just because the queen portion was in a nuc? I've done probably a dozen newspaper combines in the last month as I've sold a few nucs, had queen cells not hatch, and had virgins not return from their mating flight. I had backup queens in nucs. I definitely have more bees than time. When is a paper combine usually used? Thanks.


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## Billboard

Saltybee said:


> Do you have more bees than time? If not then take your time. If you have the equipment several newspaper combines, nuc over nuc. Start with one or 2 frames every few days, until your queenright is larger than your queenless.
> 
> How long queenless, the longer the harder to combine. Yeah the odds are you will get away with multiple methods if they have not been long queenless. Feeling lucky?


Alot of time is right. Too much work. You gotta be kidding.


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## Josiah Garber

If I do a newspaper combine, do the top and bottom both need entrances or is one entrance at the top ok?


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## Eikel

where did the laying worker conversation come from, the original post simply states queenless and queen right. 

Personally, I'd do a newspaper combine. Rig something to accommodate the different box sizes or simply put the nuc in a full size deep.

Also, I don't understand the statement about "Theres always a laying worker, even in queen right hives." Potential yes but the brood and queen pheromones keeps worker ovary systems suppressed.


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## Eikel

They can combine over night but I always give each hive an entrance.


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## Billboard

Eikel said:


> where did the laying worker conversation come from, the original post simply states queenless and queen right.
> 
> Personally, I'd do a newspaper combine. Rig something to accommodate the different box sizes or simply put the nuc in a full size deep.
> 
> Also, I don't understand the statement about "Theres always a laying worker, even in queen right hives." Potential yes but the brood and queen pheromones keeps worker ovary systems suppressed.


Whats not to understand you got it.


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## dlbrightjr

I mentioned I would make sure their was not a laying worker in the queenless hive before combining. 

I don't understand either Billboard. I shook out 2 hives last weekend because they had laying workers. Are you saying this is unnecessary and they can be combined directly with a queen right hive? Perhaps with the aid of the screen?


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## Eikel

Could be misleading to some of the new folks that read the threads, seems to imply an active laying worker and queen could simultaneously exist and lay in a queen right hive.


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## Josiah Garber

Josiah Garber said:


> I have some queenless hives that are pretty big (18-27 frames) compared to the queenright nucs (3 or 4 frames) I want to combine.
> 
> What is the best way to combine these hives?


Let me be more specific. I'd like to use a newspaper combine. My queenright hive is much smaller than the queenless (not laying worker) hive. I use top entrances.

I am thinking the following would be best in this situation for a newspaper combine, but would love feedback.

1. Put the combine at the location of the queenright hive.
2. Put the large queenless hive on bottom
3. Put the small queenright hive on top
4. Leave the top and bottom entrances open

Does this sound right?


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## Brad Bee

How long has the large hive been queenless? Are the "hopelessly" queenless? If not, do they have queen cells built or in the process? In my experiences, if they do have queen cells started, they'll kill the queen from the nuc and raise their own.


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## Eikel

Fully agree with your plan. Some folks may swear by which hive should be on top or bottom, I've never given it much concern. I usually move the smaller hive with it on top, simply because it's less work and less foragers to worry about; however, if there's a better reason to go the opposite direction, c'est la vie.


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## AstroBee

Josiah Garber said:


> Let me be more specific. I'd like to use a newspaper combine. My queenright hive is much smaller than the queenless (not laying worker) hive. I use top entrances.
> 
> I am thinking the following would be best in this situation for a newspaper combine, but would love feedback.
> 
> 1. Put the combine at the location of the queenright hive.
> 2. Put the large queenless hive on bottom
> 3. Put the small queenright hive on top
> 4. Leave the top and bottom entrances open
> 
> Does this sound right?


In these situations, if you really want the best guidance internet beekeepers can provide, then provide more details on how the big colony became queenless and how long it has been queenless. I think the lack of this information is what led readers to speculate that you may be dealing with a LW colony. 

Honestly, when I get these requests from local newbees, I cringe, because most often they do not really understand the status of their "queenless" colony. There are many approaches to rectify the situation, but it depends on what exactly is going on. If I were to perform some type of combine, the first step would be to make certain (as possible) that there was no queen in the larger colony. The easiest is to simply give the large colony a frame with eggs and check back for queen cells - although not a 100 percent, it's a pretty good indicator. If I'm really concerned and don't have time to fully assess the status of the big colony, then I will cage the nuc's queen using a JZ-BZ cage with queen candy (not a marshmallow - too quick). I'll take all the brood frames from the nuc and put them in the middle of the large colony. Spread remaining frames across other colonies. Insert queen cage just like you are requeening. Give it 7 to 10 days and check if all is well. One tweak would be to not expose the candy for a day or two and go back to observe the way the bees are treating the queen. If all is well, then expose the candy.


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## CrazyTalk

Eikel said:


> Could be misleading to some of the new folks that read the threads, seems to imply an active laying worker and queen could simultaneously exist and lay in a queen right hive.


They can, and do. Laying workers aren't uncommon, and hives just clean up after them.



> Daily inspections of the drone frames revealed the presence
> of a few eggs, presumably laid by workers, at a
> rate of 1 egg per 16000 drone cells. 85% of these eggs
> were removed within 1 day and only 2% hatched. Dissections
> of workers revealed that about 1 worker in
> 10000 had a fully developed egg in her body. These
> data show that worker egg-laying and worker policing
> are both normal, though rare, in queenright honey bee
> colonies, and provide further confirmation of the worker
> policing hypothesis.
> 
> A small proportion of eggs emerged as larvae. Previous
> work (Ratnieks and Visscher 1989) showed that
> there was no discrimination against 1-day-old worker-derived
> male larvae relative to queen-derived male larvae,
> suggesting that worker-derived males have normal
> survival rates once they hatch from their egg.
> 
> The data presented above show that both worker egglaying
> and worker policing, via the removal of worker
> laid eggs, occur normally in queenright honey bee colonies.
> However, they occur at such low rates that they
> can only be observed under special experimental conditions,
> such as those used here.


Ratnieks, F. L. (1993). Egg-laying, egg-removal, and ovary development by workers in queenright honey bee colonies. Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology, 32(3), 191-198.

When people talk about a "laying worker hive", they're talking about a hive that has hundreds(or thousands) of workers laying.


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## Saltybee

Jeez AstroBee,
A thorough rational discussion. Spoil sport. 
So often what is left out is more important than what is put in. Truth is a hive in my back yard is going to be handled differently than one 10 miles away. More likely to be able to find several 5 minute breaks than an hour + stretch. 
Mean bees different than calm. Relative size matters a lot.


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## GarfieldBeek

Josiah Garber said:


> If I do a newspaper combine, do the top and bottom both need entrances or is one entrance at the top ok?


A couple of years ago I read where one of the bee gurus (sorry, don't remember who) said newspaper was a waste of time.

Coincidentally, a week later I was doing a combine and realized I had left out a frame. I took the top box off after only about 10 minutes.

Bees had already chewed through the paper in 3 places and were mixing.

Since then I just put one box on top of the other. Seems to work just as well. You might see some fighting and a few dead workers but it's been minimal.


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## Billboard

CrazyTalk said:


> They can, and do. Laying workers aren't uncommon, and hives just clean up after them.
> 
> 
> Ratnieks, F. L. (1993). Egg-laying, egg-removal, and ovary development by workers in queenright honey bee colonies. Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology, 32(3), 191-198.
> 
> When people talk about a "laying worker hive", they're talking about a hive that has hundreds(or thousands) of workers laying.


Thank you


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## dlbrightjr

GarfieldBeek said:


> A couple of years ago I read where one of the bee gurus (sorry, don't remember who) said newspaper was a waste of time.
> 
> Coincidentally, a week later I was doing a combine and realized I had left out a frame. I took the top box off after only about 10 minutes.
> 
> Bees had already chewed through the paper in 3 places and were mixing.
> 
> Since then I just put one box on top of the other. Seems to work just as well. You might see some fighting and a few dead workers but it's been minimal.


I had seen that suggested recently on here myself. I tried that with a couple of boxes a couple of weeks ago. Lost both queens. I think the paper is to limit their interaction to start with. I've had pretty good luck with it. I've figured out to use what works for me. It seems different things work for different people. Good luck to the OP.


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## dlbrightjr

Billboard said:


> Thank you


Not sure what quest your on Billboard, but, for all practical purposes all that seems to be beside the point. Could you answer all my previous questions?


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## Billboard

dlbrightjr said:


> Not sure what quest your on Billboard, but, for all practical purposes all that seems to be beside the point. Could you answer all my previous questions?


Not up to anything. Just said thanks. If you want answers start a thread. Maybe ill throw my two cents in.


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## dlbrightjr

Billboard said:


> Not up to anything. Just said thanks. If you want answers start a thread. Maybe ill throw my two cents in.


No problem. I thought you might know something of use to me regarding combining with screens and laying workers. Thanks anyway.


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## Saltybee

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?288376-Combining-hives-with-screen

A good thread with more viewpoints.


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## dlbrightjr

Thanks Saltybee. I'll have to try that next time. I appreciate the link.


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## Lady Devana

It is April 2019. I have a large 2 deep hive that came out of winter Queenless and a small 2-3 frame Queenright Nuc. There are definitely no eggs, larvae or capped Brood. This hive is hopelessly Queenless. No Queens are available to buy as of yet where I live. I have not tried this and am looking for input. I am thinking about trying the newspaper method but a little differently. With the newspaper method it usually takes anywhere from a day to a couple before the 2 colonies are joined. I would think the foragers from the Nuc would fly back to their original hive in that short amount of time. I am not sure how long the large colony has been Queenless but I do not see any eggs from laying workers.
It's a risk on whether the hive will accept a mated Queen. I'm thinking of closing in the Queenright Nuc for about 3 days and on the 4th day putting them above the Large colony via newspaper method. That way I might have very few if any foragers flying back to the original hive. At the same time ( maybe) I will put the Queen from the Nuc in a Queen cage and put her below with the Queenless Bees. Then after a couple of days see how the bees are reacting to the Queen. Any thoughts, suggestions etc?


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## Saltybee

With one queen extra caution is worth it.
As Astro says place a open brood comb in the large hive to verify queenless and stop them from going laying workers. At the same time move a frame in to the nuc. Most will probably flyback but not all. Either double stack your nuc or put it into a regular hive body.

Still sticking with the advice of post 6, though the newspaper is overkill unless doing full hives. A frame or two at a time is no problem. 

No worries about the fielded bees, they will join in. No need to close in either hive.

Newspaper will all be on the ground by the next day, if you do that, they do it fast.

You can deal frames of bees like cards. You got this.


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## Lady Devana

Thanks for the info, here is more info that may make my situation clearer. I have 6 hives. 3 of the 6 are Queenless but have many bees. I also have one Nuc and 2 active hives. Out of the 2 active hives I have one that is doing very well and one where the Queen is laying but not to full potential. I am keeping an eye on her. In other words I only have one hive I can take a frames from to share with the other hives and no one has Queens or Queen cells here in Washington State yet My resources for taking frames are limited. I narrowed it down to the Nuc because I was curious if doing what I mentioned about adding the Nuc to the large Queenless hive and putting the Queen in a cage was something anyone else has done or if it is something worth messing with. I plan to transfer frames and combine the other hives. I have been waiting a little longer until we have some Drones flying. I have that figured out but for now I am interested in the Nuc. It has been unseasonably cold here and I don't want my Bees making Queen cells and the Queen missing the opportunity to mate because of our crummy weather. I have a couple of weeks to work with. I have already put Queen temp in so that will buy me some time. I have used Queen temp in the past and it has worked for me.


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## Saltybee

3 out of 6 is a little strange. How are the stores in those?

Inserting an empty comb in the active hive's brood nest for a few days to get some comb to transfer is not going to impact the donor at all.
If it was me, it would be worth the time, see what the receiver does with it..


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## Lady Devana

Saltybee said:


> 3 out of 6 is a little strange. How are the stores in those?
> 
> Inserting an empty comb in the active hive's brood nest for a few days to get some comb to transfer is not going to impact the donor at all.
> If it was me, it would be worth the time, see what the receiver does with it..




Good plan with inserting some empty comb. I will do that. I think I have been on tunnel vision mode. Don't know why that didn't dawn on me. I was focused on taking away frames instead of adding. Dur!


As far as the 3 out of six being Queenless it isn't strange at all where I live. Many people have lost many hives over this crummy winter we had. I'm talking large amounts of bees. All my Queens I lost were 2nd year Queens but were still doing. well. I did all my Varroa treatments on time and everything. Thanks again. Linda


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## Saltybee

Remember if they do start cells it will be harder to introduce a queen.


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