# Running two queen colonies



## Stonewall

I would enjoy comments on this as well.


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## Oldtimer

One place I worked did this as standard practise it worked very well for both swarm control and requeening.

Hives were wintered in double deeps. In spring before swarming time, all the hives with 2 year old queens (yes in those pre varroa days, queens lived 2 years), the queen was found and put in the bottom box. An excluder was put on top and then a honey super, there was no flow yet the super was just incase things got crowded. A division board was put on top of that and the other brood box put on that with basically a nuc in it and this was given a queen cell.

A few 1 year old queen hives were done also because there would not be 100% mating.

Around a month later the hives would be combined. The top box above the division board now (hopefully) with a laying queen, was taken off. The honey super was taken off and the excluder taken off. So the hive was now down to the bottom box with the old queen. 6 Sheets of newspaper were put on and then the excluder. Then the top box with the new queen and a choc was put in each front corner on the excluder to raise the second box to make a second entrance. This stopped the nuc suffocating prior to the paper getting chewed out plus these hives later got strong and needed that extra entrance. 2 sheets of paper were put on the second box plus another excluder and the honey box on top of that.

So the configuration from the bottom, was bottom box with old queen, excluder, second box with new queen, excluder, honey super.

After this we did not open the brood nest again that season, just more supers were added as needed.

In fall, honey supers were removed, then the hives wintered down, which involved pulling the excluders and feeding hives that needed it to get required amount of feed for winter. Come spring, the old queen would be gone just the young one was left. 

At the time we gave the queen cells, the hive mats were marked with the strain of the queen and the date. So we could know what queen was in each hive by looking at the mat.

In that area, there was a sharp flow lasting roughly 2 1/2 months. Once this flow started the bees lost all desire to swarm and focussed on honey collection. So the 2 queening was timed so that leading into swarming time, the hives were split with the unit & cell put on top. This effectively stopped the hive swarming. Then the hives were recombined a few weeks before the flow would start. They just had time to sort themselves out & build a very strong hive in time for the flow to start. So we achieved requeening, a strong hive just in time for the flow, and swarm control. 

The method was perfectly suited for that area, and is still done by some beekeepers in that area. (Canterbury plains, New Zealand).

However when I moved North around 600 miles closer to the equator, no beekeepers used 2 queening, and I found out why when I tried it. Here winters were warm and the bees came out strong and wanting to swarm. There was some kind of flow for around 7 or more months so the seasons were not well defined. Bees happy to swarm anytime, flow or not. So when I tried 2 queening all I got was super strong hives that were impossible to prevent from swarming.

So the method can work well in some areas, poorly in others. It is a prime example of how locality can affect management methods, what is superb in one area is lousy in another.


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## Michael Bush

I've done two queen hives a lot of different ways. Frankly I think they are generally too much work to be worth it. However, if I were to attempt it from a commercial point of view, I would just split the brood nest with a queen excluder and an entrance on both sides of the excluder and let things take their natural course. You end up with a queen on both sides usually and so you have a two queen hive. But a lot of the payoff will depend on the timing of things. You may actually get a bigger yield doing a cutdown split at the right time than a two queen hive. If you are not careful on the timing, a two queen hive may end up raising too many bees too late for the harvest as opposed to maximizing the field force at the right time for the harvest.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestwoqueenhive.htm


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## BernhardHeuvel

I found a vertical excluder with queens on each side way better than a queen on top of another queen. (Horizontal queen excluder in between. Like Farrar did it. Too much work, plus the bees are confused by the two broodnests on top of each other. Bees want to store honey right above the broodnest, which is why they are confused when finding another broodnest there.) The vertical excluder produces much more honey and less work. A professional beekeeper here uses the vertical excluder and two queens in a Jumbo Dadant with great success.

Personally I combine the weakest third of my hives into two queen hives in Spring. So about 30 % of my hives are two queen hives. Those two queen hives made the same amount of honey as do the best hives in your yard or slightly above. (up to 120 %) Compared to a two single weak hives, those hives produce the double amount of honey.

The best two queen configuration is in my eyes the side by side configuration in one broodchamber, divided by a vertical excluder, with shared honey supers.

Those two queen hives produce large, huge amount of bees. Incredible amounts of bees. I am taking brood for splits off them plus I take bees for shook swarms - several times a year - and still those hives produce more and more bees. Those hives are boiling with bees.

I got the impression, that bees do get older in those hives. I do not have another explanation for this. The number of brood frames is exactly the same as in normal hives, yet the two queen hives produce much more bees. Longevity is all I can think of that would make the difference.

Bernhard


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## BernhardHeuvel

I am working 2queen hives with the _Peschetz method_ after _Wolfram Peschetz_, Austria. Two normal brood boxes are vertically seperated into two parts each by a bee-tight division board. Each part gets a queen. Every two/three weeks two combs of capped brood of each section are pulled up into a third box right above the queen excluder which functions as a buffer zone. The two combs per section are replaced with wax foundations. Combs are taken only from the upper brood chamber. So basicly you never open up the lower brood box. Just take off the excluder, pull two combs of capped brood and replace with foundation. 

It is not necessary to check for swarm cells by this method since swarming tendencies are very low. If the brood nest is kept tight (I am using 8-frame hives!) and if you keep on pulling brood combs. Either up into the buffer box or later on in the season into splits or mating nucs.

Having two queens in one hive has the following advantages:

1) No queen failure issues. If one queen fails there is the second queen that guarantees the survival of the hive. 
2) Both broodnests do warm each other sitting side by side. Same for the winter clusters.
3) A two queen hive can make better use of early Spring flows. It also continues to go strong throughout the season. Nonstop.
4) Since there are a lot of bees, there are a lot of opportunities to make splits and swarms. 
5) By removing all the brood varroa can be reduced. Without the colony decreasing in strength. If you remove all the brood in a one queen hive, this can set back the hive for a long time. You do this in a two queen hive and you see little to no effect. So you can take all the brood for example in May or June, and still have a hive that goes strong and is ready for honey production.
6) Your boxes get more productive. 

Of course one cannot increase honey production much comparing two one-queen hives with a two queen hive. But the production per box used can be increased dramatically. 

I tried to document the situation in a two queen hive at the beginning of May. I start the two queen hives from two small colonies that did not winter well. This is in March usually. It is a bit labour intensive in the beginning, but pays back later in the season.

Pull and raise two capped broodcombs (short time before the brood emerges) into the buffer hive box. Replace with wax foundations. That is about it. No checking for swarm cells, nothing. Although other hives sometimes have strong swarming tendencies, this could not be found in the two queen hive although it bursts with bees and brood. And pollen. If you stop pulling broodcombs, the swarm tendencies begin. Swarms casted by such two queen hives are giant swarms. Usually both queens swarm at the same time.

Scheme of the hive setup.

honey super nr. 2
honey super nr. 1
buffer hive box
queen excluder
brood box nr. 2
broodbox nr. 1










blue = drones
red = brood (upper: capped, lower: young brood)
orange = pollen
yellow = honey
gray = empty cells, cleaned and made ready for the queen to lay eggs into it


The upmost honey super, well filled with bees. (It's early Spring and those have been weak hives formerly.)









Honey super nr. 1, filled with bees and honey.



























Buffer zone.









The side combs are filled with honey and pollen.









The combs in the center of the buffer box are interesting: those combs have a nice pollen dome and emtpy cells below. The bees prepare the cells for the queen so she can lay eggs into those cells. 


















--- queen excluder ---

The upper brood box contains one comb with pollen on the outer side. The other combs are capped brood.


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## BernhardHeuvel

The brood sections have to be covered when working the hive, so the queens cannot run into the other part of the broodnest. This is the bottom brood box.









Drone comb on the outer side.









The two combs in the middle to contain emerging brood. 









The combs next to the division board do contain pollen mostly.









The original Peschetz-System had three queens per hive, but he has more frames per hive. If you can read German, here is his book as a download (27 MB, PDF):
http://www.immenfreunde.de/docs/Triomagazin.pdf

From a practical point of view, I reckon a single Jumbo Dadant broodchamber, vertically divided with a bee tight division board will work best with a side by side queen setup. Less fiddling with frames by the reduced number of frames.

I don't like the setup where the queens and broodnests sit on top of each other. In my experience the bees get confused, you need multiple entrances and the worst: all those stacking involved. No towers/skyscrapers again for me.







Bernhard


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## chillardbee

Out of the 27 years of keeping bees there might of been 4 years where I didn't run double queens. For the most part I've usually had between 5 to 30 on the go. For me they produce much more honey the the regular single queen double broodnest hive.

Double queens are only a benifit to the operation thats running for honey production although I could see the benifits for bee breeders where a lot of bees are needed. The nice thing about double queen colonies is is that through the proper management, you'll be able to prevent swarming, produce almost twice the honey, and requeen. I don't think that running DQs are more work necessarily if you only need one to every 2 single queen double broodnest hives. 

Where honey production is the goal, location and right timing for the different manipulations on those hives for those locations are crucial. For the most part, my hives are in double queen mode for no more 2 months max just to get the population up to where it needs to be for the main flow when it starts headed by the young queen i left with it from when I initiated the double queen. 

The double queen system has a lot for it for the honey producer and not that it's a lot of work, it's just the timing is crucial for it to work smoothly.


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## Oldtimer

BernhardHeuvel said:


> and the worst: all those stacking involved. No towers/skyscrapers again for me.


I love your posts Bernhard you always have such an interesting perspective.

But complaining about all those stacking? Those stacking is surely the whole object? The more in the stack, the more honey, the more money.


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## BernhardHeuvel

A stack of honey supers is OK with me, but not a stack full of brood. Plus I need to move from flow to flow, and I only tried moving those towers one time. I splitted the towers in half, moved them, restacked them when I arrived. Too much work.

There is much more honey when the queens operate side by side, because the bees are able to stack the incoming honey right above their heads right into the honey supers. A broodnest is a honey pump. By keeping the nest tight, you get a powerful honey pump. Also I found that honey is much drier in smaller hives than in those skyscrapers. I rather harvest a couple of times instead of waiting for the numerous honey supers to get ripe. You get more honey anyway by doing so, because empty supers are put back onto the hives, which triggers the bees for more. Who am I telling this to?


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## Oldtimer

Oh you move them, understandable! The ones I was talking about we didn't move, not once they had honey anyway.

For us, the configuration with a queen in each box with an excluder between boxes worked fine, the bees did not see it as 2 different brood nests they configured it as one. It's often normal for a hive to have 2 queens & I don't think they understood there was an excluder between. However if it works better for you with an excluder in vertical position then I'm all for doing whatever works, for you.

For us, each queen got a full sized deep. It was simply not practical to move brood frames around once honey was on top, I'm not superman, and there were four thousand hives.

We didn't get double the honey from the 2 queeners, we got around an extra deep from them. We didn't take honey off during the season & replace the wets, the flow was too short for that we just piled boxes on and they were not fully capped till end of the season. Where I am now, longer flow, honey can be harvested several times a season, but not in that location.


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## jhickm4

I wish I could read German. I like your post, and your graphic of your two queen setup. 
Regards

BEESWITHOUTBORDERS


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## Joel

Great detailed pictures and information. Another example of how any beekeeping task can have so many windows. We have run 2 queen units using a modified version of the system in Dadant's "The Hive and the Honeybee" since 1995. We had a 2 queen board designed and made for us by someone who does wood (and some plastic) work. Nothing fancy, just a queen board with a section of queen excluder in the middle and a lexan slide that can be opened or closed from the entrance to allow or restrict movment between the upper and lower units. This acts as our upper entrance and allows the worker bees to coinhabit both "hives". We combine our units 25-35 or so days after makeup (usually run around 100) the last week of august going into Golden Rod. When we do this we take off a 2 frame split from the upper hive which makes use of the queen. These splits are built up and ready to go into winter with a good late summer, fall flow or can be wintered well in a 5 frame styrafoam nuc as a nuc if buildup conditions are poor due to bloom and weather. Our best year, 1996, we averaged 240lbs/ hive, running 50. Due to the laws of diminishing returns as we run more numbers our average production per unit has decreased to around 175/hive + the value of a split. The management and timing in relation to bloom is important and it is certainly more labor intensive but a fun challenge if you like the idiosyncrasy of beekeeping and very rewarding when it works.


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## MTN-Bees

Last season a made up a double queen Tower Hive for drawing out foundation. Two single deeps side by side as the base. In the center on top of the deeps, a queen excluder with a Parker Shim entrance with a deep on top, 4 frame deeps on each side. Worked well with easy access to the bottom deeps without having to do a lot of lifting. If I use it again I would likely screen off the bottom entrances and force the bees to use the upper enterance.


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## Ian

I like sliding two 5 frame nucs together, queen excluder and supering them up. 
I'll make a bunch of smaller units up through out the season. To catch the flow in the supers instead of the Nuc chambers we will combine two equil strength nucs under an excluder. The combined work force brings in a nice bonus if honey.
It's as simple as it sounds. HBH is used during merging of the work force.


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## Roland

Bernhard - Your setup looks similar to what Vladimir Ratushny of the Ukraine(Kiev) uses. He divides two deeps vertically with queen excluders, and claimed they built up faster due to the shared heat. I tried one for several years, but was not overly impressed. In my opinion, the care need to not put the top deep on 180 degs off, and to work a "far hive" and "close hive" was not worth the benefits of a more rapid build up. That was back in the early 90's, so maybe I should revisit the methods.

Crazy Roland


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## Vance G

frenchbeefarm.com is the site of a commercial outfit in Manitoba. They super double nucs over a queen excluder and run them as honey producers. They winter them as a single story double nuc with a shared food source of fondant over an excluder. I am trying it in a small way this winter and am waiting to see if I have one colony or two left in the divided deep come April. They use the wintered nucs to make up for winter losses and run them as a single colony the second year.


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## BernhardHeuvel

@Roland: I don't see a significant better buildup, too, but for me it makes good sense to use the weaker queens in those hives to get a better honey production per box. 

Wolfram Peschetz, the author of the book I linked, worked out a plan to control varroa. Which is another aspect to try 2 queen hives. Basicly he cuts drone frames for two times in early Spring, and only in early Spring - to cut back the initial varroa infestation. And he removes the complete brood two times a year. One time in May, another time in July. You cannot do this in single queen hives, since bee population decreases too much, so you loose a lot of honey. Even one brood removal, too early in the year (in May), shrinks the population, so you loose 20-50 % of the honey crop per year. But with a multiple-queen hive you can do this without loosing any honey at all. Because those hives buildup massive populations. (Not by more brood, but I reckon' the bees get older, much older in those hives. Don't know if that is true or how it works. From observation I don't think those massive amounts of bees can be made by brood alone, there must be a longer lifespan, too.)

When taking the complete brood (with adhering bees, without the queens), he combines 50 frames of brood (Langstroth, shallows) into a new hive, sets those hives into another distant apiary with a nectar flow, and makes shook swarms every 8 days from those until the hives are emptied out/faded, harvesting some honey from those brood towers in the end, too. Shook swarms go into nucs with a ripe queen cell for building up young colonies. He treats only the swarms for varroa, one time when the swarms are made and another time in Autumn. That's it. No winter treatment necessary, no treatment of the production hives, too. Production hives and nucs have to be in different locations, though, to make it work.

By moving up some of the brood two times (within the hive! So no loss of workforce), and by the first complete brood removal, all swarm tendencies are cut back completely. I have seen that myself. The broodboxes are filled up with capped brood, are boiling with bees, incredible amounts of bees, but they don't swarm. Really interesting. Peschetz didn't do any other swarm control. I didn't, too, and had no swarms. (Marked queens.) Experimentally I did not move up brood, those hives swarmed. 

It may look fiddly and very time consuming, but it is not so bad at all. You get way more combs drawn, you produce way more bees than in a single-queen hives, you make more new hives and you get a decent honey crop with less to no work to control swarming. Plus it helps controlling varroa, and you treat the mites outside the hives and no brood present. Which helps against resistance. So initially you invest more time, but get away with less work and more income.

I am slowly increasing the number of hives with two queens. Right now I combine the weakest third of all my hives into 2 queen hives, combing the third of all hives that came out of winter a bit weaker. The boxes, that are freed by combining, become supers with drawn comb for the strongest hives. I needed some time to understand, why Peschetz did what he did. Especially some of the details. And I start liking it, because of the results. Note: I use an 8 frame hive and 2 queens. Peschetz used a 10 frame hive and 3 queens per hive.


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## RichardsonTX

Oldtimer said:


> Oh you move them, understandable! The ones I was talking about we didn't move, not once they had honey anyway.
> 
> For us, the configuration with a queen in each box with an excluder between boxes worked fine, the bees did not see it as 2 different brood nests they configured it as one. It's often normal for a hive to have 2 queens & I don't think they understood there was an excluder between. However if it works better for you with an excluder in vertical position then I'm all for doing whatever works, for you.
> 
> For us, each queen got a full sized deep. It was simply not practical to move brood frames around once honey was on top, I'm not superman, and there were four thousand hives.
> 
> We didn't get double the honey from the 2 queeners, we got around an extra deep from them. We didn't take honey off during the season & replace the wets, the flow was too short for that we just piled boxes on and they were not fully capped till end of the season. Where I am now, longer flow, honey can be harvested several times a season, but not in that location.


Thanks for the info. I think I am going to try this next year with all my nucs that I make up to help them build up faster. 

From your comments here I see the process as: 
1) Make up a strong nuc in a full size deep with a queen cell. 
2) After queen is mated, put the nuc on top of an existing brood box that already has a mated queen with just an excluder between the two boxes and then put an excluder on top of that with a super on top of that. 

And they should coexist ok sharing the same bees and just an excluder between the two of them?


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## Oldtimer

Yes you have it right. 

However as with most things bees there are many variations, the way I described is just the way it worked for us.


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## grozzie2

This is a fascinating discussion, opens some ideas up here that may work well for us. but one question I am missing the answer to, and, after reading every post twice, still missed it along the way. It seems folks assume that if running in the 2 queens stacked configuration, then once excluders are removed, you end up with the young queen heading the colony by fall, and the old one goes by the wayside. Has anybody actually confirmed this (both marked different colors) or is it just assumed the survivor will be the younger one ?


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## Oldtimer

Yes I have confirmed it, not by colors but by a wing clipping system. Over a large number of hives I have done this with it is almost invariable the older queen is the one the bees get rid of, during winter and after the excluders are removed in fall.

Remember this method is just a twist on the bees own natural supersedure behaviour, if the beekeeper does it right.


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## lakebilly

after the excluders are removed in fall.

Both the vertical & the honey super excluders need to be removed or just the honey super excluder?


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## Oldtimer

I've never used vertical excluders so cannot comment on that.

The way it worked when I was doing it was a horizontal excluder between the brood boxes. After honey harvest all excluders, both brood division & honey, were pulled and at that time there would still be brood in each brood box. Later the hive would be wintered down (prepped for winter), and not opened again till the first spring round, at which time there would only be one queen in the hive other than some very rare exceptions.

But bee behaviour is very tied to the local climate and environment, it's entirely likely others will have different experiences or do things differently.


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## Michael Bush

I've done a lot of different things. I've made 12 frame boxes and put an excluder vertically (and of course one horizontally at the top of the brood nest). The disadvantages were that it was a lot of labor to get down to the brood nest to check anything, I had to make special equipment, and if you lifted the top brood box off, the bees spill over to the other side and I'm afraid of a queen making the trip with them. This was my first two queen hive.

I've done a long hive with a brood nest at both ends and a stack of supers in the middle (with the box divided roughly into thirds by vertical queen excluders). Advantages are that it's easy to check the brood nests and they don't spill over while you are doing so. You don't have to move the supers to check on the queens etc. Disadvantage, obviously is building special equipment again.

The think I like about just splitting the brood nest with an excluder is that it's easy to implement (they raise the new queen so they accept them both). It requires no extra equipment. And if I don't stress over whether they did or did not raise a new queen (playing the odds rather than obsessing over a particular hive having two queens or not) then I can manage it like most any hive that has an excluder on it and it's not that important if a few of them don't end up with two queens. In other words it not only simplifies equipment (standard) but it simplifies management (standard w/excluder). It is not convenient to check on the brood nests (have to remove all the supers) but when using this method I don't usually bother, I just stack on the supers and figure that most of them ended up with two queens and some of them did not but I'm not going to worry about it.

The one I have not tried but have considered is the two brood nests side by side as two stacks, an excluder in the middle of the two with supers on top of that and some boards to cover the gap on the sides. This is appealing because it uses standard equipment and isn't as tall. But if the queen fails on one side, it doesn't seem to work as well as the same circumstance in the previous setup, where they simply failed to raise a queen above (or below) the excluder but it's all one stack that communicates well.

>Has anybody actually confirmed this (both marked different colors) or is it just assumed the survivor will be the younger one ?

My queens used to all be marked and yes, it's almost always the younger one they keep. She has more pheromones.


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## lakebilly

If one queen fails on a side, a frame of young larvae & they should make a new queen. 

Michael this side by that you haven't tried yet....the benefit is a stronger pheromone? Otherwise what's the point? I built 4 of the 30 frame sidebyes. I am hoping to do @ least 2 this year to borrow brood from for queen rearing.


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## Michael Bush

>Michael this side by that you haven't tried yet....the benefit is a stronger pheromone? Otherwise what's the point?

The benefit is using standard equipment and the hive doesn't get as tall.

It looks like this:
http://www.beebehavior.com/modified_two_queen_system.php
http://ento.psu.edu/pollinators/publications/twoQueesn
http://www.bjornapiaries.com/uniquebeekeeping.html


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## lakebilly

Thanks for the links. I had intended to try this with my 30 frame, now I may sister up a couple of my others. I like the access to drone frames.


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## beepro

The advantage of having a double queen side-by-side vertical divided hive is to share the heat
during the cold winter months. The small gaps between the excluder will allow more heat
exchange inside the nest. The faster warming of the nest will enable them to grow faster vs a
single hive. It is also hard to say whether or not the queen's pheromone from both queens will help
with the faster Spring build up. Though the 2 queen set up has less mites than the single one. And the
single hive got superceded while the 2 queen system is still building strong now. So it maybe that the smell of both
queens will help to influence the workers more. Once the divider is lifted during the flow the 2 sides can be combine
to assimilate all the strong foragers into one. The weaker queen will be put inside another nuc to build up with. I'm sure with
more foragers more nectar can be collected. So this set up is good for overwintering and a fast Spring build up too. Not to mention
to form more nucs for the hive increase. 


Side-by-side vertical nuc hive:


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## Michael Bush

>The advantage of having a double queen side-by-side vertical divided hive is to share the heat
during the cold winter months.

The only time I've tried this they abandoned one queen and clustered with the other. I don't try to overwinter them as two queen hives anymore.


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## BernhardHeuvel

La Biruche (2006) J.-F. Dardenne
http://home.citycable.ch/apiland/biruche.htm

Two-queen colony management (1946) C.L. Farrar
http://www.immenfreunde.de/docs/2queen.pdf

Mass storage of honeybee queens during the winter (1977) M. H. Wyborn
http://summit.sfu.ca/system/files/iritems1/4760/b14477099.pdf

Apicultural Research: A comparison of Three Non-Migratory Systems for Managing Honey Bees in Minnesota
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~reute001/pdf-files/comparison I.pdf
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~reute001/pdf-files/comparison II.pdf

Two-queen system of honey bee colony management (1976). Moeller, Floyd E.
http://hdl.handle.net/2027/uiug.30112018983517

Maintenance and application of multiple queen colonies in commercial beekeeping
http://www.researchgate.net/publica...ercial_beekeeping/file/d912f50042369235dc.pdf


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## lakebilly

Michael when do you pull Queen #2 for the winter & what do you do w/her? Overwinter nuc?
Better yet what does your end of season management of 2 queen colony look like including winter stores?

Also, your 30 frame horizontal configuration, what does the supering look like w/winter clustering concerns? Do you remove the vertical. QE for winter? Of course you remove the horizontal.


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## Michael Bush

>Michael when do you pull Queen #2 for the winter

I may or may not. I may just pull the excluder out and let them sort it out. More likely I'll do a split.

> & what do you do w/her? Overwinter nuc?

If the hive is strong enough it may be an actual hive... but it might be a nuc.

>Better yet what does your end of season management of 2 queen colony look like including winter stores?

I'm likely to split them into nucs if it's strong enough and they usually are.

>Also, your 30 frame horizontal configuration, what does the supering look like w/winter clustering concerns? 

I super only the middle as far as honey. If they need more room for brood I might add boxes on the ends as well, but usually not. As far as winter I always take ALL the supers off so the don't move up into one and then starve. I made that mistake once...

>Do you remove the vertical. QE for winter? 

When I pull all of the boxes off, yes.

>Of course you remove the horizontal.

Yes. And I try to arrange things so the bees are all clustered at one end with food in contact with them and ahead of them as they move across.


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## lakebilly

No stores overhead? 

Cluster moves better horizontally than verticly?


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## beepro

Yes, super side-by-side on top too. It is harder for them to build up during the
Spring time without the extra food. Notice
the pink foam divider is in the middle covered by a cloth. The shiny AL strip on the foam divider was at the bottom hive.
Yes, they prefer to move where the food is at either up or to the side.
There isn't much of a horizontal movement other than
up where the food source is at. See the patty and sugar
bricks under the cloth on the upper super. Should one queen died or missing the
foam divider can be removed to unite the hive. But so far everything is thriving and healthier than ever before.
In the Spring time just right before the flow the weaker queen will be remove into another nuc to continue to expand
while the stronger queen will be heading this colony with the divider removed. So the honey harvest should be increase this way.


Food source inside the upper super:


----------



## Kidbeeyoz

Oldtimer said:


> I love your posts Bernhard you always have such an interesting perspective.
> 
> But complaining about all those stacking? Those stacking is surely the whole object? The more in the stack, the more honey, the more money.


Bernhard, I too really like your posts. I think you could write a great book entitled "Turn Your Beehive into a Honey Pump". It would be a best seller in the bee world.

Also I am very intrigued by those curved frames and boxes. They are a work of art! They must be difficult to manufacture.


----------



## Knisely

Meister Imker Heuvel:

Very interesting posting on your two-queen system. How frequently do you pull brood frames up to the 3rd super (above the queen excluder)? Are you doing this on a weekly basis? One time only? Do you recycle frames from the 3rd super to the 2nd super when you pull up the frames of brood, or continue to insert frames of foundation to get new, well-drawn frames of brood comb?


----------



## MattDavey

I have a 2 queen, horizontal hive, with vertical excluder in the middle that I been working for a few years. (32 deep frames.)

Before winter I replace the vertical excluder with a solid division board so they effectively become two separate colonies and then ensure that they have similar resources. (16 deep frames each.)

It is like the "divided deep" idea where the two colonies can share the heat from each other during winter. It also gives you double the chances of the 'hive' surviving the winter.

In early spring once they have a few frames of brood each, I replace the division board with the vertical excluder and a new empty frame (with strip of foundation) on each side of the excluder. The two new frames and excluder gives them enough distance/time to merge without fighting.


----------



## beepro

Yep, Matt. I use the queen to make another nuc in the Spring time.
Also put 2 drawn frames in after removing the divider so the queen will have more
room to lay and they don't fight giving them more time to mingle. 
This is a great set up for overwintering the nuc hives.


----------



## chillardbee

grozzie2 said:


> This is a fascinating discussion, opens some ideas up here that may work well for us. but one question I am missing the answer to, and, after reading every post twice, still missed it along the way. It seems folks assume that if running in the 2 queens stacked configuration, then once excluders are removed, you end up with the young queen heading the colony by fall, and the old one goes by the wayside. Has anybody actually confirmed this (both marked different colors) or is it just assumed the survivor will be the younger one ?


For my system, I cull the old queen. The broodnest is 3 standards high. The bottom box has the old queen, a double wood bound excluder seperates it from the 2 boxs above with the new queen. It's easier to find the old queen if she's kept to just the one box. Before the flow starts is when I cull the old queen. I've counted the frames of brood during the culling of the queens and they have on average 22-25 frames of brood/larva/eggs, It's a monster hive. For me, it's kind of necessary to find the queen anyway since that super will end up above the excluder as a honey super. Unfortunately I have to go through a couple of days later to cull queen cells if they are present.


----------



## Michael Bush

>No stores overhead? 

No. Then they would move up into that box and get stuck.

>Cluster moves better horizontally than verticly?

No. A cluster moves better in one direction. They are not good at going back over empty comb to get to stores at the other end or in some other direction than they have been moving.


----------



## scituatema

Do you know Any videos or pictures that we can visualize this system ?
this is something I would like to learn in detail and practice. 
Appreciate all of your posting!!




Oldtimer said:


> One place I worked did this as standard practise it worked very well for both swarm control and requeening.
> 
> Hives were wintered in double deeps. In spring before swarming time, all the hives with 2 year old queens (yes in those pre varroa days, queens lived 2 years), the queen was found and put in the bottom box. An excluder was put on top and then a honey super, there was no flow yet the super was just incase things got crowded. A division board was put on top of that and the other brood box put on that with basically a nuc in it and this was given a queen cell.
> 
> A few 1 year old queen hives were done also because there would not be 100% mating.
> 
> Around a month later the hives would be combined. The top box above the division board now (hopefully) with a laying queen, was taken off. The honey super was taken off and the excluder taken off. So the hive was now down to the bottom box with the old queen. 6 Sheets of newspaper were put on and then the excluder. Then the top box with the new queen and a choc was put in each front corner on the excluder to raise the second box to make a second entrance. This stopped the nuc suffocating prior to the paper getting chewed out plus these hives later got strong and needed that extra entrance. 2 sheets of paper were put on the second box plus another excluder and the honey box on top of that.
> 
> So the configuration from the bottom, was bottom box with old queen, excluder, second box with new queen, excluder, honey super.
> 
> After this we did not open the brood nest again that season, just more supers were added as needed.
> 
> In fall, honey supers were removed, then the hives wintered down, which involved pulling the excluders and feeding hives that needed it to get required amount of feed for winter. Come spring, the old queen would be gone just the young one was left.
> 
> At the time we gave the queen cells, the hive mats were marked with the strain of the queen and the date. So we could know what queen was in each hive by looking at the mat.
> 
> In that area, there was a sharp flow lasting roughly 2 1/2 months. Once this flow started the bees lost all desire to swarm and focussed on honey collection. So the 2 queening was timed so that leading into swarming time, the hives were split with the unit & cell put on top. This effectively stopped the hive swarming. Then the hives were recombined a few weeks before the flow would start. They just had time to sort themselves out & build a very strong hive in time for the flow to start. So we achieved requeening, a strong hive just in time for the flow, and swarm control.
> 
> The method was perfectly suited for that area, and is still done by some beekeepers in that area. (Canterbury plains, New Zealand).
> 
> However when I moved North around 600 miles closer to the equator, no beekeepers used 2 queening, and I found out why when I tried it. Here winters were warm and the bees came out strong and wanting to swarm. There was some kind of flow for around 7 or more months so the seasons were not well defined. Bees happy to swarm anytime, flow or not. So when I tried 2 queening all I got was super strong hives that were impossible to prevent from swarming.
> 
> So the method can work well in some areas, poorly in others. It is a prime example of how locality can affect management methods, what is superb in one area is lousy in another.


----------



## Oldtimer

Hi Scituatema, I had a search but couldn't find anything exactly how I do it although there are some videos on the subject, some of them are rather long on words and short on information so I'm not linking anything because nothing I found I thought was really good or a beginning to end easy to follow guide.

My searching skills are not the greatest though there may be something out there, so if you do happen to find a good one, how about linking it, it would add value to the thread.


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## scituatema

Season is short here. Main flow just starts. First pollen came in I think first week of April . There os no time for me to raise a queen and unit them before the flow.need to find a way to overwinter two queens to get the hive ready for main nectar.


----------



## MTN-Bees

Double nucs- 8 frames in each- ready to go


----------



## scituatema

If I overwinter double nuc and in spring run them as oldtimer described as two queen colony, would it be better than running the same nuc individually?


----------



## MTN-Bees

I think running the Nucs individually, you will have to deal with swarming. The overwintered Nucs would provide you with a queen and working hive for the upper deep that Oldtimer described. I ran a double queen tower hive last year. I did not use it for honey production. One of the things I liked about it is I could get into the upper deep without removing the supers. I also put two 4 frame Nuc boxes on the sides of the supers that allowed easy nuc production with two strong hives working. Not sure it would out produce 2 double deeps or not. I might just have to try it this summer.


----------



## Oldtimer

MTN-Bees said:


> I think running the Nucs individually.


Agreed.


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## MTN-Bees

Oldtimer- How did the double queen hive you described work for comb honey?


----------



## Oldtimer

As in cut comb?

We never did cut comb when I worked for those guys it was all extracted, although there was certainly quality honeycomb that would have been suitable. But the 2 queeners made around a box (deep) more honey than the single queeners.


----------



## Royal

I was wondering about the experiences of those who run two queen colonies with regards to varroa. I am trying to put together a plan this year to split the hives, specifically putting the old queen into a new hive with no brood in it, along with nurse bees(maybe after being powder rolled). I was at a stopping point with that plan, due to having to split more hives than I could overwinter well. 
This is my new plan. I will split a colony with varroa problems into an even number of hives, utilizing the above splitting method. This will cause brood breaks in every split(maybe if I used an introduction cage on the queen right colony). Then, I will combine the weaker splits into two-queen colonies. Thoughts?

EDIT:Sorry about the double post


----------



## Royal

I was wondering about the experiences of those who run two queen colonies with regards to varroa. I am trying to put together a plan this year to split the hives, specifically putting the old queen into a new hive with no brood in it, along with nurse bees(maybe after being powder rolled). I was at a stopping point with that plan, due to having to split more hives than I could overwinter well. 
This is my new plan. I will split a colony with varroa problems into an even number of hives, utilizing the above splitting method. This will cause brood breaks in every split(maybe if I used an introduction cage on the queen right colony). Then, I will combine the weaker splits into two-queen colonies. Thoughts?

EDIT:Sorry about the double post


----------



## scallawa

BernhardHeuvel,

How do you overwinter with this configuration? Do you pull some honey frames down below the queen excluder?


----------



## casino boy

BernhardHeuvel

If one was to put egg's or 3 day larva in the buffer super would they make swarm cells's.
Would this be ok or might they start to swarm?
Thinking of making cells for splits in the spring.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

scallawa said:


> How do you overwinter with this configuration?


You remove the queen excluder and insert a vertical divider in a third box with honey in it. You need to separate the two vertical chambers completely. Otherwise the bees go into winter with two queens and come out with only one. (Most of the times.) This is why most two queen configurations break up the two queen management before winter. Problem is, where to get early queens in Spring. With the divider, you don't have this problem, you winter as many queens as you need. Side by side, but separated. 

In Spring you pull the divider and insert the queen excluder. Leave that third box that overwintered right on top of the excluder. Do this two-three weeks before the first Spring flow. Bees will eagerly jump at that box and fill it with honey. You will get honey when others even don't think about it. 



casino boy said:


> If one was to put egg's or 3 day larva in the buffer super would they make swarm cells's.


The configuration and management I described produces very little swarms - in fact, it is pretty difficult to make them swarm. Just keep pulling some of the capped brood combs above the excluder every two weeks. So queen cell rearing will be difficult in that setup. 

The good news is, you can harvest a lot of capped brood combs, that you can add on top of a single queen hive and this will trigger the swarm impulse and ou can make a lot of cells in those hives. 

Bernhard


----------



## beepro

"Problem is, where to get early queens in Spring."

You divide a deep bee box 3 ways and overwinter 3 queens in each divided slot.
Make as many of these queen boxes as you can before going into the winter.
The after the solstice queens should give you a head start in the early Spring before
the new drones emerged. This my friend is called the expansion mode.


----------



## casino boy

BernhardHeuvel

When you pull all the brood in July do you give back comb or will they pull foudation?
Same goes for spring or dose it mater?
I see you have bee entrance open to each box are they allwas open.
Thanks will be giving it a go next year.


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## BernhardHeuvel

When pulling all the brood, they draw foundation. In no time. A week later you find all frames drawn and filled with fresh brood. You need to feed, though.

I had the entrances open, but don't do this anymore. Too much pollen in the supers, too much silent robbery, too many guard bees where I don't want them, too high water content of the honey. And last but not least, you have drones in the supers. If using a queen excluder it'll get stucked with drones. Same for bee escapes, which are a very nice tool to harvest honey...if you don't have drones or brood in the super. 

So no more top entrances for me.


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## beepro

There is the drones excluder that you can install to prevent the drones from going
into your hives. An added expense of course.


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## casino boy

BernhardHeuvel


You said to feed after taking the brood.

Do you use fram feeders in the top brood box's?
Or do you feed in a nother way?
Buffer box?
Thanks for your insignt on this.


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## BernhardHeuvel

I use frame feeders in 12 frame hives and top feeders in 8 frame hives.


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## jim lyon

I've long considered doing some sort of 2 queen commercial management but it seems like it works at cross purposes with varroa management. I have settled on what works in a large scale for me and that is a yearly requeen with a cell and the resulting brood break. 
For those who do it and combine hives late in the summer, what percentage of the time are you finding the two queens coexisting the next spring? A number of years ago we combined a lot of small hives in the fall and the next spring while splitting them down was surprised at how often there would be two queens peacefully coexisting.


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## Lauri

Here's mine:






































Frames of bees installed with a capped queen cell on each side. Covered with a piece of plastic or fabric to keep them moving horizontal and avoid comb building on top the frames.










Given room to move up, with center still covered with a barrier:










Queens now mated and well established, ready for excluder to keep queens separate but allow bees to mingle.





























September strength










Currently over wintering:










This is how I'll continue the management next spring as I super the monster. Excluders confine the queens to their areas (15 frames in the bottom and 10 frames in the deep directly above their side) Bees from both sides will be allowed to mingle above excluders.










On it's own heavy pallet that can be moved or adjusted with fork lift










Unit with excluder frames for (Double) breeder queen isolation if used as a reproductive unit










Notice the bottom unit is made with 1 1/2" material. (Cedar decking in this case) Those groves in the interior were not intended, they are just preexisting cuts from the lumber I had available.


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## Lauri

More photos










Light weight one piece lid:






































Could this be used on a commercial level? It takes standard frames and standard box's. The only custom items are the bottom board, bottom box and one piece cover, which may not be necessary in dry climates. In my area a one piece waterproof lid is a must.
The volume of foragers will be enormous. If I can keep them from swarming (And I don't expect a problem with all that space) the honey production _might_ be interesting


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## Roland

Jim - The "Bull of the Woods" would claim that 10-15 percent of the hives have two queens. I believe it is more prevalent when you clip wings, because the old queen returns to the hive instead of leaving. 

Crazy Roland


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## mmiller

Roland said:


> Jim - The "Bull of the Woods" would claim that 10-15 percent of the hives have two queens. I believe it is more prevalent when you clip wings, because the old queen returns to the hive instead of leaving.


True. Years ago I started noticing that the majority of my spring "boomer" hives had 2 queens. Sometimes they would be laying within a few inches of each other on the same frame. My curious nature had me wondering how often this happens. I started sticking a queen excluder on some of these hives for a few days and coming back to check the location of the queen (eggs). What I've found is that over 50% of those big booming spring hives have more than queen which is obvious with heavy egg production on both sides of the excluder. I'm not sure exactly when they change back to a single queen but I do know that when I do my inspections after our blackberry flow virtually all of these colonies have sorted things out and eliminated the second queen.


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## Michael Bush

I have thought about putting an excluder between brood boxes as a routine manipulation in order to get two queen hives. It almost always works and if you're just playing the odds, it works often enough. I'm not convinced that it is the laying ability of the two queens that accounts for the booming hive. I suspect it is the pheromones from the two queens that motivates the bees more. Jan Dzierzon says a good queen can lay up to 3,000 eggs a day. I think that's about all a booming colony can care for. 

"When a colony is weak and the weather cool and unfavourable she only lays a few hundred eggs daily; but in populous colonies, and when pasture is plentiful, she deposits thousands. Under favourable circumstances a fertile queen lays as many as 3,000 eggs a-day; of which any one may convince himself by simply putting a swarm into a hive with empty combs, or inserting empty combs in the brood-nest of a stock, and counting the eggs in the cells some days after."--Jan Dzierzon, Rational Bee-keeping.

With two queens that could be as high as 6,000 eggs a day... hard to imagine a colony caring for that much brood...


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## BernhardHeuvel

Michael Bush said:


> ...not convinced that it is the laying ability of the two queens that accounts for the booming hive. I suspect it is the pheromones from the two queens that motivates the bees more.


Motivation? By queen pheromones? That would be simple, if that's the case. You simply add a strip of queen pheromone like Bee Boost into the hive...but it is not that easy.

What I found is, that the bees are getting older in a two queen hive. For whatever reasons. I reckon it is the double mechanism vitellogenin <> juvenil hormone that does the trick. So basicly you get winter bees during summer. With all the bees getting older, you end up with lots and lots of bees in a hive. It is not so much about getting a lot of brood. Sure you have a bit more brood in a hive with multiple queens. But you have more bees than brood, a lot more bees. I can explain it only by the prolonged lifespan of the individual bee. Just do the math: what happens if not 1,000 bees die every day in summer but only 500 bees. You see where this leads to...

You get bees in trees, a lot of swarming, if you don't reduce the comb space for each queen to a certain limit. If you reduce the number of combs for each queen - the actual number of combs is depending on comb size and cell counts per comb - to the queen's ability of laying eggs per day, you end up with less swarming attempts than normal.


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## Ian

Lauri that looks exactly what I do but condensed down to four/five frame units under one excluder. I know guys using six frame units sliding 3 of them together under 2 excluders. The boxes overhead accumulate exponentially


----------



## Lauri

I do a lot of double colonies, but just for queen rearing and over wintering, Not for honey production until I used this large unit.





























My idea with the long hive is this spring, to once again separate the center second deep temporarily with a solid barrier over the excluder and install another (3d) queen. Let her lay the frames up well, then remove her and let the bees recombine over the excluder so all the brood in the center is capped just before the main flow. The number of nurse bees needed to tend the brood areas will be reduced, the unit over all will still be happy with 2 established queens and the number of available foragers will be tremendous. 
It sounds complicated, but it's not. I'll just have to remove some Maple filled frames in the center to make sure the new queen has plenty of empty cells to lay up.

With lots of room and LOTS of bees, it will be interesting to see how far I can push the population, yet keep them from swarming.

Unless it produces a very _significant _increase in honey compared to two separate hives it wouldn't be worth it, except for less need for insulating/wrapping & better over wintering in bitter climates.

Of course it depends on how strong they are coming out of winter and how hard they are to control. A 3d queen may or may not be an option.
I figured if I was going to do something different, I'd be bold if I could.


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## Ian

I like the way running two nucs together buys me flexibility of easily adding space for surplus storage and eliminated a lot of the fuss of honey bound nuc nests. It promotes a large brood best while sending all they harvestable honey overtop.
Otherwise building nucs would be too time consuming here with our honey flows


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## Michael Bush

>Motivation? By queen pheromones? That would be simple, if that's the case. You simply add a strip of queen pheromone like Bee Boost into the hive...but it is not that easy.

I have never tried that because there would be no feedback mechanism for queenlessness. But it would make an interesting experiment.

>What I found is, that the bees are getting older in a two queen hive. For whatever reasons. I reckon it is the double mechanism vitellogenin <> juvenil hormone that does the trick. So basicly you get winter bees during summer. With all the bees getting older, you end up with lots and lots of bees in a hive. It is not so much about getting a lot of brood. 

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just trying to understand:
1) how did you conclude that they live longer and 
2) what do you think would be the root cause? 

The vitellogenin of course, but I mean what is causing the higher vitellogenin levels in a two queen hive? Under normal conditions, at least, the juvenile hormone is suppressing the vitellogenin isn't it? So wouldn't more brood lead to more juvenile hormone which would lead to lower vitellogenin levels rather than higher?

>Sure you have a bit more brood in a hive with multiple queens. But you have more bees than brood, a lot more bees. I can explain it only by the prolonged lifespan of the individual bee. Just do the math: what happens if not 1,000 bees die every day in summer but only 500 bees. You see where this leads to...

I do and I think anything that lengthens the life of the workers would have a dramatic impact on production, especially in the middle of the flow.


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## Ian

Bernhard, I always thought of what your saying as to be attributed to less hive maintenance needed to be done. It takes less bees to satisfy a combined double nest than two individual hives. Shared responsibility and workload. That division of labour adjusts upward bringing in more honey. I think you'd be hard pressed to find it extends their life span. But if it did your beehive retention would be expedential, I'm not seeing those results.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Most people run two queen colonies on too many broodcombs per queen. To get the results I speak of, you need to press the queens down to few combs.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Tell me the measures of your combs and I tell you how many combs in your setup is needed for each queen.


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## Ian

I use the standard deep frames in 5 frame units, two pushed together under an excluder. I will run the units 4 frame also, but like the extra frame for space


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## BernhardHeuvel

Need the actual measures, since "standard" seems to be as local as beekeeping is supposed to be.


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## Ian

Roughly off the top of my head, 9 1/2" deep, 18" long


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## BernhardHeuvel

The mentor I had, he used 23,400 cells for each queen as broodspace. He used three queens per standard hive. The 23,000 cells per queen is roughly the number I want to get to. 

One Langstroth comb has about 6,517 cells per comb. So basicly a bit less than four combs will do. (3.6 combs). Four combs is a bit too much, three a little to less. 

An adaption I would recommend here is to use smaller cell size (5.1 mm) which increases the number of cells per comb to 7,387 cells per comb. So three combs would be perfectly fit the two queen management. You probably could fit one more queen in your standard deep box this way. No special equipment needed = means more production per standard broodbox. Which is the basic production unit. 

As said: three combs will do. Pull one comb full of capped brood two times in a row in Spring and set those combs right above the excluder. Do this whenever you add new honey supers. Pull a honey comb from the honey super; pull a brood comb - all capped - from the brood chamber and put the capped brood comb in the first honey super right above the excluder. Replace the broodcomb with foundation in the brood chamber. The honey comb goes into the new super.

Pull all the capped brood in early summer and replace with either empty combs or foundation. Leave young brood. Use the capped brood to start new hives. This way you pull the varroa mites out of the production hives. Do this twice times and you don't need a summer treatment. 

The smell of fresh wax, young brood and a young queen does a lot to prevent swarming. Those empty cells above the excluder (after the capped brood emerged) do wonders as well. Those hives get choking full of bees and still they don't swarm.


----------



## RDY-B

opcorn:--RDY-B


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

Roland said:


> 10-15 percent of the hives have two queens.


Already posted it in the requeening section:



















With the method of requeening I use (ripe cell into a full hive at the end of summer) I found two queens side by side regularily. Not within the swarm season, though.


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## Ian

You mention 3 frames max, what's wrong with using two 5 frame units?


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## Rob Hughes

Lauri,

Very nice woodwork and photos. A couple of q's:
-bottom entrances only? How many? Looks like two in one photo but can't quite be sure.
-the 'common' bees are in the central box, second level, but the end boxes retain bees from different queens it seems, as there is no way for them to merge laterally (?)
-do you use a single vertical excluder? (it looks like it) I have heard of some using a double thickness one to separate queens to avoid battles across the excluder.
-is it hard to lift/move the centre brood box as you can't come at it from the side?

I am interested in some variation on the 2-queen system / horizontal hive, partly to make brood manipulations easier and avoid unstacking boxes but also like you say, for warmer over-wintering. Great volumes of honey would not go amiss, either of course...

Rob


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

Ian said:


> You mention 3 frames max, what's wrong with using two 5 frame units?


Nothing wrong...if you are in the package business. If you run your bees for honey, the additional weight (too much wood), the costs, the non-uniform equipment, the extra gadgets needed are the one side of the coin. The other is, that you have more swarms temptations if you have too much comb space per queen. Even a small difference to the numbers mentioned above will have their effects. That's my experience. So if you run double or triple queen colonies for honey production, try 3 frames max on 5.1 mm foundation in vertically divided standard deeps. Give it a try small scale. Don't know if you will see the same I do here. Run them as I suggested above. If you like the results, adopt otherwise drop it.

Tried quite some configurations with multiple queens, but the vertical side by side queens and the shuffeling of combs as described produced the best results so far.


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## Ian

There must be something lost in translation because we are so far apart. I'm guessing it's our equipment size. 2 , 5 frame units under a 10 frame super fits perfect, both sides will have their nest chalked full of brood sitting under 5 boxes, which is the greatest concern of managing smaller units. Zero space for resources whips the need to supply it to them during honey pulling operstions.


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## dsegrest

Rob Hughes said:


> Lauri,
> 
> Very nice woodwork and photos. A couple of q's:
> -bottom entrances only? How many? Looks like two in one photo but can't quite be sure.
> -the 'common' bees are in the central box, second level, but the end boxes retain bees from different queens it seems, as there is no way for them to merge laterally (?)
> -do you use a single vertical excluder? (it looks like it) I have heard of some using a double thickness one to separate queens to avoid battles across the excluder.
> -is it hard to lift/move the centre brood box as you can't come at it from the side?
> 
> I am interested in some variation on the 2-queen system / horizontal hive, partly to make brood manipulations easier and avoid unstacking boxes but also like you say, for warmer over-wintering. Great volumes of honey would not go amiss, either of course...
> 
> Rob


Check out Snelgrove.


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## dsegrest

Ian said:


> There must be something lost in translation because we are so far apart. I'm guessing it's our equipment size. 2 , 5 frame units under a 10 frame super fits perfect, both sides will have their nest chalked full of brood sitting under 5 boxes, which is the greatest concern of managing smaller units. Zero space for resources whips the need to supply it to them during honey pulling operstions.


 2 5 frames do not fit under 10 frame equipment without an adapter.


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## Ian

dsegrest said:


> 2 5 frames do not fit under 10 frame equipment without an adapter.


Mine do


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## johnbeejohn

have been following thread jerry mat1954 do you have an update on how this worked out for you this year


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## BernhardHeuvel

dsegrest said:


> 2 5 frames do not fit under 10 frame equipment without an adapter.





Ian said:


> Mine do


What I said: standards...


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## Ian

BernhardHeuvel said:


> What I said: standards...


Now now, I sail a pretty well kept ship. I run a few worn corners with my healthy bottom line 


Pic of a yard of 5 frame double queen hives, made up from late season bulk bees and mated queens, excluder over the nests and storage overhead. These late season nucs were made up Aug-sept, and pulled in 50lbs ave. All wintering in my shed now sitting on three - four frames of bees.


----------



## Lauri

Looks good Ian.

Hey, what is the make of your hoist? I need one of those.


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## Ian

Lauri said:


> Looks good Ian.
> 
> Hey, what is the make of your hoist? I need one of those.


Check out www.herbee.com
Not cheap, but I manage my entire op around that machine .


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## Lauri

Thanks.


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## beepro

You will need a flat bed truck for that loader.
Not sure if one person can load them hives. How many helpers
needed, Ian?
Also, how do you set up the 2 queen hives? Put a cell inside the
top box or a mated queen in there on top of an excluder.
I must of have the aggressive bees here that like to take out the other side of
the queen when I let the workers intermingle. They like to balled the queen.
Is there a way to prevent this issue?


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## Ian

Combine two queen right hives, excluder over, super accordingly
Best to merge during a flow when they are in storage mode. Otherwise the bees mingle nicely. 
You must understand, each unit with their dominant population around their queen protects her from initial squabbling. In matter of hours these two units are building upwards instead of waring between each other


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## timgoodin

I am very interested in trying this in the spring primarily to be able to pull a production queen and nuc off after the spring honey flow. Am I understanding this correctly deep with queen, excluder, honey super, another deep with brood moved up. Queen will be made in upper deep and can use a top entrance for her to go on her mating flight. Will queens not fight through the excluder? Do I need two excluders on the setup?


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## Ian

Just combine two units under an excluder


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## MattDavey

I agree with Ian. Side by side is much easier to manage, to test initially and to separate if you don't like the setup.

You can make two half width migratory style lids if you don't have Nucs, so your set up will look like an upside down capital T. This means you have easy access to the brood in each side as well. The bees will fill the gaps with propolis within a few days.

If you don't have a spare queen, you make a split by moving half of the brood frames over to the box on the other side and they will make an emergency queen. Use the OTS method and make sure they have a frame with a good amount of pollen on it, next to the notched frame.

I would have no more than half width entrances on each box, on the outer edges.

Also, I would use an upper entrance above the excluder as well as the bottom entrances with this setup.


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## casino boy

Bernhard Heuvel

When you requeen in the fall with Induced or Forced Supersedure were do you place the cell ?
In the 3rd box or under the queen excluder?
Thanks


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## BernhardHeuvel

Under the excluder since at that time there is no honey super on anymore. It has to be past the honey season, no swarming fever or attempts anymore. It is when bees switch to wintering preparations when they accept a second young freshly born queen better. And not swarm with the old queen instead.


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## beepro

So you are making the Autumn young queens.
At what month do you normally make them?
And is it at the beginning or mid-way of the Autumn flow?
Do you even have an Autumn flow or you feeding them?


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## BernhardHeuvel

We don't have much of a fall flow here. So we need to feed. 

I start requeening in August when feeding for winter builtup. 

I learned the method of requeening without searching for the old queen from here:

http://www.carricell.com/#!CARICELL...on/c1c0o/2D2FAEFC-F534-4CA1-8126-CAAB82D1CA10


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## Frank

Bernhard Heuvel,
I am following your posts with great interest. I think you know what you do !
Last year I set up my hives like you discribed , two queens in one box with an vertical divider. It was awesome to watch those hives develope. I live in a vegetation zone 3-4, so pretty long winters up here and I lost hives over winter. I am down to one hive right now. I checked yesterday and found a good brood pattern, with some capped drone cells. So I like to get prepared for queen rearing. Since nights are still cold I would do this just in the one existing hive. 
My set up is as follow: on the bottom I have two deeps, still vertical divided . A queen excluder keeps the queen in those two boxes. Over the queen excluder is the not divided buffer box . Then comes a quilt box with two entrances for each side, then the lid on top.
My question is : if I ad a box on top of the buffer box and put a frame with larva in there, would they raise a queen in there ?
The brood nest of the old queen is separated with queen excluder and buffer box from that one frame with larva. Most bees going in and out at the top entrance , so they have to pass the frame with larva . I still have a bottom entrance, but it's not much used and I will close that at the latest for the next winter because of mice. 
Any advice is appreciated


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## casino boy

BernhardHeuvel

After you pull all the capped brood in july will you have to raise any more capped brood or might they still swarm?
Sure glad i got the manlake vented suit becuse they get strong and my girls seam to get mean around early july.
Nobody wants to help any more the dog hates to go outside now.
Will have to move them off the yard next spring 50 yards from the house isnt far enough away.


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## BernhardHeuvel

casino boy said:


> After you pull all the capped brood in july will you have to raise any more capped brood or might they still swarm?


Where I live we don't pull any more capped brood after that. But we don't have a late flow here. Usually population is strong enough at a certain point that you can take out capped brood and bees routinely.


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## casino boy

BernhardHeuvel

What is the best way to requeen a side that failed?
Tryed twice to requeen a failed side and had no luck doing so.
Can i just put a nuc in the failed side.
I just pulled the center divider out and put a new bottom board in its place for now.
Thanks for your help.


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## BernhardHeuvel

I don't know of any way to requeen one side. I pull the divider board and restart the two queen hive in autumn. Since it is easier to just pull the divider board, this is the way to go.


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## beepro

Leave the one side empty for a while with the divider on.
Put the top box on with a screen divider and a new entrance for the 2nd queen hive.
After 2 weeks transfer all the frames and queen from the top box to the empty side on
the lower box. The foragers will reorient to their new entrance at the bottom. Everything is
back to normal again. I'm running all 2 queen set up this winter!


----------



## m_pchelari

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I don't know of any way to requeen one side. I pull the divider board and restart the two queen hive in autumn. Since it is easier to just pull the divider board, this is the way to go.


When entrances are in opposite directions, to back and front the requeening is possible. Almost 100% successful mating in both 5 frame chambers simultaneously, even with same color boxes.









Not a good idea for a framed excluder but only to show the design of the bottom (don't have picture).


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## beepro

For me I just set up a divider in the middle of the hive box.
All entrances are facing the same direction. Somehow my bees are
gentle enough not to kill off the other queen and know how to enter their
right entrance. If you want to really separate the foragers then open the entrance
on the side of the hive box facing the same flying direction. For this I also put a small
landing board on the side.


----------



## skyscraper

~ @BernhardHeuvel...
since you are using 8 frame custom boxes, what is your opinion on using all Lang medium 8 frame boxes to do the same thing?

There is enough room to put a divider in and still have 4 frames on each side. 

I'm guessing I would use 2 mediums for the brood under the QE, and then add a super while taking a frame of capped brood from each side about every 2 weeks during the flow?

What is the difference in honey production between your 2 queen custom hives, and the single queen Jumbo deep ones with the following board?

Also, when you were talking about 23,000 cells per queen laying cycle, was that per box of 3-4 frames for a total of 46,000? Or really only 23,000? How would that compare to 6-7 frames in the Jumbo deep single queen hive?


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

skyscraper said:


> What is the difference in honey production between your 2 queen custom hives, and the single queen Jumbo deep ones with the following board?


The 2 queen hives produce as much (and a little more) as the best bee hive that you have in your yard. This way you can increase total income per box with the use of two weaker colonies, which would otherwise occupy two boxes and produce only one fifth of what they do as a 2 queen hive. So for me there are no record harvests using 2 queen hives, instead I increase my harvest per box even with smaller colonies.

A good queen and thus a good colony I wouldn't waste in 2 queen hive, I run her in a single deep. But if the queen comes out of winter not so strong, she either stays or goes into a 2 queen hive. Together with another queen she produces as much as the best hives you have or that can be found in your location.


----------



## Ian

Or start your nucs later with cells, and gather a decent crop all the same
Fresh queens ready for singles next season


----------



## skyscraper

What about using this idea to start two packages?


----------



## Ian

You still need to keep those hives over "that" population threshold.


----------



## skyscraper

Ian said:


> You still need to keep those hives over "that" population threshold.


I guess I'm a little lost on this.

If I buy two packages, can't I start them on a double nuc bottom and super over them?


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

You can. Works great in spring.


----------



## Ian

skyscraper said:


> I guess I'm a little lost on this.
> 
> If I buy two packages, can't I start them on a double nuc bottom and super over them?


Oh I thought you meant splitting a package multiple ways.


----------



## skyscraper

Any tips on the details for starting two packages this way? 

Would 2 mediums stacked with a divider in between and QE added to the top under a super once they have drawn out foundation in the brood area work?


----------



## Ian

They would need to be started separate, then merged overhead. Best time to merge is during colony expansion and during a flow


----------



## skyscraper

BernhardHeuvel said:


> You can. Works great in spring.


I think I want to have deeper hives than is available here in the US, so I would be creating a custom sized box for the brood box, same dimensions as 8 frame Jumbo deep. (I'm not sure 8 frame even exists, but the vertical dimensions would be the same.)
Which is better for a 2 queen hive, at least for starting with 2 packages...

1. Having 1 Jumbo deep with a divider with medium supers above and not moving any frames above the excluder.

2. Having all mediums and using the bottom two, each with a divider, for brood chambers to be able to lift a frame or two above the QE every 2 weeks or so during the flow. (So, in other words, not having a Jumbo deep at all.)

???


----------



## Ian

I don't know how others manage two queen colonies but for me, set up and timing is everything. I don't rotate brood. Too much work and I'm not sure the reason for it. 
You needs fresh queen. I build these units later in spring with cells, when that first round of brood emerges boxes are added uptop and the field force hits the blooming fields. I basically start up two small units for no cost and manage their production close to my full sized yards . 
Harnessing bees in certain ways can provide interesting results


----------



## Fusion_power

Dadant depth frames are available from a few suppliers in Canada and can be custom made here in the U.S. I would not advocate going any deeper than Dadant 11 1/4 depth frames because of problems in extracting and problems removing the frames for inspections. It is also difficult to source foundation deeper than Dadant.

Six Dadant depth frames are adequate for most queens. I am running colonies with 2 queens on 7 frames in a square Dadant depth box. A triangular wooden block needs to be placed in the center of the landing board to prevent bees walking from one colony entrance to the other. Also, this setup does not work very well for mating queens since the virgin can easily attempt to enter the wrong side.


----------



## Frank

Rotating brood most likely creates more bees in one hive and prevents swarming. If adding an empty frame the queen has lots of space to lay, no time to think about swarming. If adding foundation, the bees are busy drawing comb. 
Recommended was rotating every two weeks. Most likely this prevents pulling a frame with capped brood AND some eggs or young larva into a super. I was too curious and rotated every week one frame with capped brood into the super. Often I found the next weekend queen cells on those frames. 
I tried to make a nuc from this frame and put it into a nuc box, the queen cell must have been fresh capped when I tried that. Most time it did not work. It seems that too many bees left the nuc and went back to the original hive. ( I kept them not far away). This way the remaining bees could not keep the right temperature inside the nuc and the queen did not hatch.
Re queening one side of a double hive most time did not work. Sometimes yes but most times not. The entrances are on the same side.
Paper combining a queenles side with an existing nuc did work. I started a double hive with an overwintered hive and put a nuc with a good queen on the other side. It seemed they tried to superseed the queen of the nuc a few times, because I found a few times a queen cell in the centre of a frame, which I destroyed.
However, all my strong double hives endet up with just one queen late in fall. It seems they choose the strongest queen. I will try to overwinter them as single hives in three deeps. They have too many bees to fit just in two deeps.
To make nucs from double hives seems easy or I was just lucky. I put two nuc boxes on top of a super, I pulled from each hive one frame with eggs and young larva into those nuc boxes, added a frame with pollen beside. The rest I filled with frames with drawn comb. I left the double hive for 12 days alone. Then I took both nuc boxes off (did not open or check) and put them side by side (entrances to the opposite ) and left them for an other week alone. All nucs endet up with a nice big queen. 
Will see how I get them over winter. Have about 15 cm snow in the yard. Hope it melts, but , you never know !
I will count my hives in spring !


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## beepro

Since the entrances are on the same side why not just block out
one side. Later on the bees get used to one side entrance only then you
can put in another nuc on the other side. And unblock the entrance too.
If it is snowing now then the nice big queen is mated now or still a virgin? If
a virgin will they still mated comes Spring time?


----------



## Frank

To block out one side and install later a nuc into the empty side should work. 
However, it seems if you put a strong hive beside a smaller hive they try to superseed the queen of the smaller hive. If you cut those queen cells out and swap here and there a frame with brood in order to equal the strength of both hives it should work.
The queens of my nucs are mated. I left both boxes side by side, entrance to the opposite , until both hade a nice brood pattern . Then I turned the boxes, entrances to the same side and installed both nucs into a standard deep with an divider board .
That worked for me !


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## beepro

Different techniques with the same result.
A queen right hive on one side and a queen cell hive on
the other side will have the drifted bees toward the QR hive.
But both queen right hives will have separate bees without the
supersedure when they are the strong queens. So make sure that both
sides have the same amount of bees and very strong queen to avoid this issue.
It works for me too!


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## MTN-Bees

A question about double queen hives. Can you have one shared entrance? I requeened and placed singles on top of strong double deeps. I have two excluders and either a medium or deep hive body between them with feeders. These hives are on 4 way pallets? This was done because of strong robbing pressure. I do have auger holes in the lids, some I have plugged due to really weak colonies.


----------



## beepro

The absolute answer is a NO!
Many times I saw bees fly into the wrong hive and immediately less than 30 secs
flew out. Now I know bees are territorial insects just like some of us. It is only to protect
their home and resources. And with the strong pressure to rob there is no way that they will take a chance with
a foreign bee. Unless someone already find a solution, I have separate hive entrance for
the 2 queen hives.


----------



## MTN-Bees

One summer I ran one modified (side by side) double queen hive. It had one entrance above the two hives that had a queen excluder in the center. All the bees went in one entrance- no fuss no fighting. In that case the bees had a choice- go right or left. One hive was Italian and the other Carni. In each there was a good mixture of both. Not sure this case is the same.


----------



## Ian

MTN-Bees said:


> A question about double queen hives. Can you have one shared entrance? I requeened and placed singles on top of strong double deeps. I have two excluders and either a medium or deep hive body between them with feeders. These hives are on 4 way pallets? This was done because of strong robbing pressure. I do have auger holes in the lids, some I have plugged due to really weak colonies.


Yes stacking hives, separated with excluders work, I set hives up this way all the time.
Typically adding a smaller hive ontop of a larger hive to help boost and revive the smaller one. I simply place the second colony right over the excluder.
Some leave them in this set up and later super large hives. They tend to get tall

Merging during non flow late season conditions might be tougher than during flow type spring conditions.


----------



## Ian

beepro said:


> The absolute answer is a NO!
> Many times I saw bees fly into the wrong hive and immediately less than 30 secs
> flew out. Now I know bees are territorial insects just like some of us. It is only to protect
> their home and resources. And with the strong pressure to rob there is no way that they will take a chance with
> a foreign bee. Unless someone already find a solution, I have separate hive entrance for
> the 2 queen hives.


Does that make any sense? The two queen hive, typically set up in many ways but all merge the two nests into a "common" unit. The bees treat both units as "the same"
It's the queens that need separation.


----------



## MTN-Bees

Thank You- I'm feeding syrup and pollen patties to the hives because of the late season. I will see how it goes. As the cooler weather sets in the robbing pressure usually decreases.


----------



## billabell

Ian, when you put the smaller colony on top of the larger do you provide the smaller with their own entrance above the queen excluder or are they forced to reorient to the bottom hive entrance? Thanks.


----------



## Ian

billabell said:


> Ian, when you put the smaller colony on top of the larger do you provide the smaller with their own entrance above the queen excluder or are they forced to reorient to the bottom hive entrance? Thanks.


Typically they are forced to go down below. Typically I use a sheet of newspaper to merge.
... Not all the merged small hives survive this process, only viable strong queens hold their nest. Weak are killed off


----------



## beepro

Then at the end of the winter you will only have 1 queen hive instead of 2.
Maybe my double queen set up is a bit different separating the bees and 
the 2 queens altogether. Intermingle they will pick the stronger one to go to while the
weaker one went bye-bye. And if I use 1 entrance for 2 hives then they will fight all summer long sometimes
killing the other queen too.


----------



## MTN-Bees

At this point- I have nothing to lose!


----------



## beepro

Maybe you'll be lucky and unlike me, I'm losing queens all the time when
messing with them. Just lost one potential breeder but another one took over the hive.
Then another one got mated today. Nothing to lose except our time!


----------



## Ian

beepro said:


> Then at the end of the winter you will only have 1 queen hive instead of 2.
> Maybe my double queen set up is a bit different separating the bees and
> the 2 queens altogether. Intermingle they will pick the stronger one to go to while the
> weaker one went bye-bye. And if I use 1 entrance for 2 hives then they will fight all summer long sometimes
> killing the other queen too.


Is the question a winter prep question or a summer time management question? 
I know many producers who winter 2 queen nucs side by side with an excluder overhead, under an inner cover which winter very well. 
But stacked 2 queen colonies do not winter the same. The two nests would merge into one as the cluster moves up during the winter which would leave one queen down below.


----------



## Ian

beepro said:


> Maybe you'll be lucky and unlike me, I'm losing queens all the time when
> messing with them. Just lost one potential breeder but another one took over the hive.
> Then another one got mated today. Nothing to lose except our time!


Why are you loosing them? During the merging process? I've gotten to the point where I no longer even spray the two units down with HBH before merging. Nearly 100%. Old queens do decrease efficacy.


----------



## Amibusiness

Interesting thread. Thanks for all the ideas!
Bernhard, I am not clear on the size of your brood nest in this system. Are you using 3-4 frame (depending on cell count) or 8 frame (from earlier post in the thread)? Or is the 8 frame the bottom deep with 2 queens? With the smaller brood nest, only removing brood every 2 weeks, would limmit the queen to laying about 1600 eggs per day.
Do you think the system would work with a wooden vertical divider (instead of a vertical QE), excluder on top? Observation shows that they use the center divider as the middle of the brood nest anyway. (One way to find out next year...) Thanks!


----------



## MTN-Bees

Ian: All I'm trying to doing is protect the weaker hives from robbers and allow the weaker hives to build up before winter after requeening. Where I live there are very few days the bees do not get out of the hive during the winter. My plan is to switch the queen excluder for a double screen between 11/1 to 12/1 depending upon build up. The amount of robbing pressure right now is incredible. There is a commercial beekeeper that purchased land adjacent to us that has several hundred hives on it. I can only check hives in the morning cold or about a 1/2 hour before dark. I came home yesterday to find two hives robbed out. I'm thinking my only option is to move the hives somewhere else.


----------



## Ian

Only thing to watch would be the excess humidity uptop. Top entrance would be the trick


----------



## McBain

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I am working 2queen hives with the _Peschetz method_ after _Wolfram Peschetz_, Austria. Two normal brood boxes are vertically seperated into two parts each by a bee-tight division board. Each part gets a queen. Every two/three weeks two combs of capped brood of each section are pulled up into a third box right above the queen excluder which functions as a buffer zone. The two combs per section are replaced with wax foundations. Combs are taken only from the upper brood chamber. So basicly you never open up the lower brood box. Just take off the excluder, pull two combs of capped brood and replace with foundation.
> 
> It is not necessary to check for swarm cells by this method since swarming tendencies are very low. If the brood nest is kept tight (I am using 8-frame hives!) and if you keep on pulling brood combs. Either up into the buffer box or later on in the season into splits or mating nucs.
> 
> Having two queens in one hive has the following advantages:
> 
> 1) No queen failure issues. If one queen fails there is the second queen that guarantees the survival of the hive.
> 2) Both broodnests do warm each other sitting side by side. Same for the winter clusters.
> 3) A two queen hive can make better use of early Spring flows. It also continues to go strong throughout the season. Nonstop.
> 4) Since there are a lot of bees, there are a lot of opportunities to make splits and swarms.
> 5) By removing all the brood varroa can be reduced. Without the colony decreasing in strength. If you remove all the brood in a one queen hive, this can set back the hive for a long time. You do this in a two queen hive and you see little to no effect. So you can take all the brood for example in May or June, and still have a hive that goes strong and is ready for honey production.
> 6) Your boxes get more productive.
> 
> Of course one cannot increase honey production much comparing two one-queen hives with a two queen hive. But the production per box used can be increased dramatically.
> 
> I tried to document the situation in a two queen hive at the beginning of May. I start the two queen hives from two small colonies that did not winter well. This is in March usually. It is a bit labour intensive in the beginning, but pays back later in the season.
> 
> Pull and raise two capped broodcombs (short time before the brood emerges) into the buffer hive box. Replace with wax foundations. That is about it. No checking for swarm cells, nothing. Although other hives sometimes have strong swarming tendencies, this could not be found in the two queen hive although it bursts with bees and brood. And pollen. If you stop pulling broodcombs, the swarm tendencies begin. Swarms casted by such two queen hives are giant swarms. Usually both queens swarm at the same time.


I've got a question for you Bernhard.

Let's say you lose a queen in another hive and for some reason they cannot build their own queen. You decide to take one of the two queens of this double queen hive and candy release her into the hive without a queen. How do you re-introduce a new queen into the hive that used to have two queens?

Thanks for that excellent post! I learned a lot.


----------



## Fusion_power

Don't do candy release of queens if you can avoid it. Just move 3 frames of brood and the queen into the queenless colony. The only time it makes sense to do candy release is when queen rearing is in progress and newly mated queens are available from June to September.


----------



## casino boy

BernhardHeuvel,

When you pull the honey crop do you have to slide in the divider between the 3rd box right away?
Seems my girls picked a side and left the other side when i was feeding for winter stores. 
Was hoping to get a box full before i separted the third box.


----------



## Ilić Marko

GREETINGS FROM SERBIA. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4COQFi8PRbE


----------



## Forgiven

Interesting thread. I seem to remember that two queen colonies used to be a lot more common here before, but after queens started to lay a lot more (genetics, change to italians/carniolans from black) few people do it anymore.

I was planning to do some of them next spring with imported queens, but mainly for shared warmth with intent to split the tower month or so later (say get queens early may, split it up early june).

Reading this makes me consider keeping them together all the way up to autumn... hm.


----------



## Mac13

Hi !
I have 2/3 dept Langstrot beehive , cann i have the same method two gueens that Bernhard have ? 
Thanks !


----------



## Amibusiness

Yes. (Though he can answer that with real numbers; I don't know what size boxrd he uses.) download his link to the Peschetz method. Even though it is in German the pictures are very informative as to what equipment to use. (full disclosure: I have not tried it yet.)


----------



## Mac13

Yeah , but the peschetz method have 3 queen so i dont known if it works whet 2 queens ?


----------



## Amibusiness

I plan to try two queens on 4 deep langstroth frames each (wooden center divider, QE on top), otherwise following Peschetz. (I don't know the exact size of his frames.) That seems to be close to what Bernhard uses. (Hopefully he will be back...) For your medium langstroths, 4 frames each seems a bit small, 5 frames close (10 frame box with masonite divider), or double 3 over 3? How many frames fit in your box?


----------



## Mac13

I have 10 frames box , thinking two boxes vertical divided so each queen gets 5 over 5 frames and QE on top and then buffer zone box .


----------



## Amibusiness

From Bernhard's earlier posts it seems like they would be swarmy with that much space. Can you divide some into 3 queen boxes and compare -- and let us know how it goes? Part of the beauty of this system is that i don't need to disturb the whole brood nest, which only works if i can trust that they aren't swarming. Otherwise I'd rather give her a bigger space and keep it open before/during swarm season. (I'm one of those people who would rather not use a QE. My 1 queen hives have unlimited brood nest. I believe this does not scale up too far but have not gotten there yet ☺)
Has anyone else been inspired to try this already and have experiences to share with us?


----------



## Mac13

Yes but next year so we have to wait


----------



## DerTiefster

skyscraper said:


> I think I want to have deeper hives than is available here in the US, so I would be creating a custom sized box for the brood box, same dimensions as 8 frame Jumbo deep. (I'm not sure 8 frame even exists, but the vertical dimensions would be the same.)
> Which is better for a 2 queen hive, at least for starting with 2 packages...
> 
> 1. Having 1 Jumbo deep with a divider with medium supers above and not moving any frames above the excluder.
> 
> 2. Having all mediums and using the bottom two, each with a divider, for brood chambers to be able to lift a frame or two above the QE every 2 weeks or so during the flow. (So, in other words, not having a Jumbo deep at all.)
> 
> ???


Hmmm. This strikes a sympathetic chord in me. I have been considering making some custom frames to fit inside two stacked mediums, using -- you guessed it -- two pieces of medium foundation. There are options, but the tightest fit I could think of involved turning std med foundation 90 degrees and trimming to whatever height I thought best for the frame. This would leave a ~4 inch gap between L/R pieces for free comb. Or a body could make the bottom and/or top bars an extra ~1/4" thick or put an extra 1/2" thick stiffening bar across the middle of the [very] deep frame, and use medium foundation w/o trimming it at all.

But this is what has been occurring to me in reading about Nectar Management and Wright's contention that bees somewhat favor deep or jumbo frames to medium/shallow formats for the expanse of uninterrupted comb. Coupled, of course, with the comments by Bernhard and others (hoechstinteressant) of the use of deep(ish) bodies like Dadant jumbos.

Sincere thanks to all for their participation in this thread. I hope to use some of these ideas this coming spring. In my area of S.E. Virginia, I'll probably need to begin feeding in February and doing some of the activities in March prior to early- to mid-April swarm season. A swarm finished stalking me on about 23 April this past spring, taking a dead-out away from me without even asking, and before I even got a good start cleaning it out.

Michael


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## Amibusiness

Tiefster: I would expect a fair bit of drone comb drawn in the 4" gap between your vertical foundation. If you have the gap at one or both edges it won't be in the middle of the brood nest. Might be good to (hive) staple the 2 mediums together so they become 1 box (?)....
McBain: Wolfram Peschetz suggests only requeening a queenless side in spring / fall when the colonies are separate as it is too time-consuming (risky?) to requeen a section during a flow because the bees in the supers don't think of themselves as queenless (they have access to the other queen(s) in the hive). I.e. just run it as a 1 queen colony until you would be separating them in the fall.
Mike Palmer used the "non" producing hives to start nucs, requeening them, thus removing the "bad" genetics. I guess this system would "cover" up the obvious duds. What happens if 2 booming colonies are run together? (Not sure it's worth it but might be an interesting experiment.)
I like Ian's method of getting a crop off of later nucs.... Oh the possibilities in beekeeping.


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## DerTiefster

In thinking it over, I don't see any downside to testing (not full-on adopting) doubled mediums as a box with a frame using standard upper and lower bars and custom sides made for the depth of two mediums plus an appropriate spacer (1/2"?) to make the overall depth that of a medium frame plus a medium box. The spacer could be either cross-wise between the foundation pieces or at the bottom. If this didn't work well, then by separating the sides from the foundations with a knife and slicing the two foundations apart from each other as appropriate, the top with its adhering foundation could be mounted into a std medium frame. Similarly for the bottom adhering to its frame bottom bar. But I'd get to try some jumbo-ish frames in a box sized for them. Again, that box would be exactly two medium boxes.

Splitting this as a 10-frame box with a division board and using it for dual colonies as Bernhard outlined sounds interesting. It might be more consistent with Peschetz' Trio setup to use three frames per queen as a triple queen box. But I know nothing and would probably try it as a twin queen. I may find out how it works.

Michael


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## JoshuaW

Bernhard, which divider do you prefer? You mentioned a vertical excluder in one setup, and a division board in a different setup. 

Also, if you use a vertical excluder, do the bees "see across" the excluder and perceive one continuous broodnest? I'm asking because I know I need three frames for the queen to lay, and then one (or two) for stores.

It seems no matter how many frames a box will hold, the bees use outer frames for stores....

Thanks!


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## BernhardHeuvel

You need a solid division board. And no, bees don't use all outer frames for stores, only if you muddle it up. 

For example, I had a case in our beekeeping club: In summer a guy pulled out all brood combs but two. He thought it'll reduce mites in the hives. He filled the rest of the hive with foundation. Result: queen layed eggs on the old dark combs only (two combs) and all the other fresh combs were full of syrup. What happened: in summer queens (or bees) prefer to lay in old dark comb. By leaving two old combs, the broodnest was restricted to two combs. Fail! No sufficient amount of brood and thus new bees means no winter bees. Hives dead. Although they had tons of winter stores, but lacked bee mass.

(In Spring it is the opposite: queens prefer to lay in fresh combs. Which is why giving foundation anywhere were you don't want brood is counterproductive.) 

Bottom line: learn about the bees' behavior and act accordingly to get best results. A thriving hive automatically produces the most honey.


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## Amibusiness

Bernhard, not sure on your brood nest size with 2 queens. What are your box dimensions and how many frame does each queen have access to? Thanks


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## Mac13

Hi Bernhard !
I have 2/3 dept Langstrot 10 frames beehive , cann i have the same method two gueens that you have or 3 queens is needed ?
Thanks !


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## DerTiefster

DerTiefster said:


> In thinking it over, I don't see any downside to testing (not full-on adopting) doubled mediums as a box with a frame using standard upper and lower bars and custom sides made for the depth of two mediums plus an appropriate spacer (1/2"?) to make the overall depth that of a medium frame plus a medium box....
> 
> Splitting this as a 10-frame box with a division board and using it for dual colonies as Bernhard outlined sounds interesting....


And here is my prototype. Better designs are in mind and will be realized Real Soon Now. Sorry for graininess of the photo. It should be better, but I know nothing about cameras, too.

Michael

SORRY...forgot this is the commercial forum and not a playground for putterers like me. Will try to remember. Don't know how to / Can't unlink photo so leaving post intact.


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## bkcrrtnps

I am currently running 5 Modified dadnt hives that came through winter as double nucs. I have a partition in center and 5 frames on each side. I am thinking about placing my queen excluder on top and supper up from there. What's your thoughts on that idea?


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## DerTiefster

Not yet having done these things, I will say that it is consistent with what has been written above. I would like to do this. I will likely build my first square brood chamber soon. I am favorably impressed with the development of bees on the extra-deep frames I put into a two-stacked-mediums rectangular box, and it's time to go to the next step.

Michael


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## Knisely

Perhaps convert some to ‘normal’ modified Dadant, and keep some as 5 frame wide & compare. That’ll improve all of our knowledge about those approaches.


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## bkcrrtnps

I do have and some "normal" MDH that I've had for the last 3 years as well as a horizontal hive I made for the jumbo frames that came through winter with 3 hives in it.


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## casino boy

Bernhard,
You had a link for carricell requeening but it dosnt work now.
Do you have a new link for it would like to try it.
Looking for the queens really slows things down.
Adding a cell in the fall would really help things allong thanks.


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## Gray Goose

BernhardHeuvel said:


> @Roland: I don't see a significant better buildup, too, but for me it makes good sense to use the weaker queens in those hives to get a better honey production per box.
> 
> Wolfram Peschetz, the author of the book I linked, worked out a plan to control varroa. Which is another aspect to try 2 queen hives. Basicly he cuts drone frames for two times in early Spring, and only in early Spring - to cut back the initial varroa infestation. And he removes the complete brood two times a year. One time in May, another time in July. You cannot do this in single queen hives, since bee population decreases too much, so you loose a lot of honey. Even one brood removal, too early in the year (in May), shrinks the population, so you loose 20-50 % of the honey crop per year. But with a multiple-queen hive you can do this without loosing any honey at all. Because those hives buildup massive populations. (Not by more brood, but I reckon' the bees get older, much older in those hives. Don't know if that is true or how it works. From observation I don't think those massive amounts of bees can be made by brood alone, there must be a longer lifespan, too.)
> 
> When taking the complete brood (with adhering bees, without the queens), he combines 50 frames of brood (Langstroth, shallows) into a new hive, sets those hives into another distant apiary with a nectar flow, and makes shook swarms every 8 days from those until the hives are emptied out/faded, harvesting some honey from those brood towers in the end, too. Shook swarms go into nucs with a ripe queen cell for building up young colonies. He treats only the swarms for varroa, one time when the swarms are made and another time in Autumn. That's it. No winter treatment necessary, no treatment of the production hives, too. Production hives and nucs have to be in different locations, though, to make it work.
> 
> By moving up some of the brood two times (within the hive! So no loss of workforce), and by the first complete brood removal, all swarm tendencies are cut back completely. I have seen that myself. The broodboxes are filled up with capped brood, are boiling with bees, incredible amounts of bees, but they don't swarm. Really interesting. Peschetz didn't do any other swarm control. I didn't, too, and had no swarms. (Marked queens.) Experimentally I did not move up brood, those hives swarmed.
> 
> It may look fiddly and very time consuming, but it is not so bad at all. You get way more combs drawn, you produce way more bees than in a single-queen hives, you make more new hives and you get a decent honey crop with less to no work to control swarming. Plus it helps controlling varroa, and you treat the mites outside the hives and no brood present. Which helps against resistance. So initially you invest more time, but get away with less work and more income.
> 
> I am slowly increasing the number of hives with two queens. Right now I combine the weakest third of all my hives into 2 queen hives, combing the third of all hives that came out of winter a bit weaker. The boxes, that are freed by combining, become supers with drawn comb for the strongest hives. I needed some time to understand, why Peschetz did what he did. Especially some of the details. And I start liking it, because of the results. Note: I use an 8 frame hive and 2 queens. Peschetz used a 10 frame hive and 3 queens per hive.


Bernhard old thread I know, was this book ever published in English? do you have the full name of the book I have googled and not come up with much.
Thanks
GG


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## Amibusiness

Time to sponsor a translation if not already done.... 😉
Bernhard, do you still use these methods now and how many of what sized frame do your queens have access to in your 8 frame boxes (ie 1 box split in half so each queen only has 4 frames? 2 boxes? Are they comparable in size to langstroth deeps?) Thanks


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## BernhardHeuvel

I use the Brother Adam hive, which has 12 Dadant frames. Divided by a divider board (bee tight) into two sections. Each section gets four combs of brood maximum. Never more than 4 frames Dadant, which is similar to Langstroth deeps. So each section four combs, follower board, empty space, divider board, empty space, follower board, four brood combs.

I still use two queen hives with great success. A lot of beekeepers here adopted the method and also have great success. 

If you try 2 queen hives for the first time, take two good splits with two good queens and set them together in one 2 queen hive. I formerly recommended the use of weaker queens, which works fine if you are experienced with two queen hives. For the start, use stronger units.





https://youtu.be/7PYhyPsjAyg

First days of May and about 60 kg of honey. About 9 frames with 7.000 capped cells = 60,000 bees hatching/emerging in the next ten days...


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## BernhardHeuvel

Book will be translated and published soon. It think mid 2020.


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## Vance G

In my experience, the queens will not coexist in brood chambers separated only by an excluder. You only have one queen relatively shortly. My variation that works but is way too much work is to move the queen and a couple frames of brood out of the strong wintered double, replace removed frames and put on a queen excluder topped by two supers, add an excluder and put the split in its own hive body on top with its own entrance. The emergency queens produced below are high quality and the queen above lays furiously with a nurse bee force steadily augmented as they become unemployed below.


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## Roland

Vance, try two excluders, spaced so that the two queens can not get to each other. I tried that setup once with side by side 5 over 5 deeps. They did expand faster in the spring, but not worth the trouble inspecting. (I believe it is used in the Ukraine)

We use your method (almost) when we loose a queen, but put eggs downstairs and upstairs, the upstairs being above the supers. The code name is "Tower of Power" when both queens take. The top gets a new home when we loose patience lifting it.

Crazy Roland


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## Amibusiness

Thanks Bernard. That is helpful. Because your frames are about twice the size of Peschetz' do you move only one frame of capped brood above the queen excluder from each brood nest every 2-3 weeks? Also, twice a year (May and July) he pulls all brood. Do you leave all open brood or pull that as well? Do you have a summer dearth? Is the May pull towards the end of swarm season and the July pull just before summer dearth?


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## BernhardHeuvel

I pull one or two frames each section. Every ten days from the end of May on. I don't pull all brood at once. I do have a summer dearth but I do feed at this time and also I plant a lot of flowering fields that compensate the dearth. The hot summers we experienced here the last two years caused trouble because there was no water in the soil anymore.


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## spokexx

Howdy folks. Im curious to try combining 2 small hives and keeping both queens. I'd hate to pinch either queen. Right now both colonies have just 1 deep brood box. SO, do i simply put an excluder over the bottom deep with queen #1, lay a sheet of newspaper over that, then place the other deep (with queen #2) on top? What about when winter comes? Do I always keep the excluder on and that queen #1 secluded to the bottom? I imagine if it's ever removed, the queens will battle. 
Much appreciation.


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## Gray Goose

with one excluder as you describe the queens will still fight on the screen. it takes 2 to keep them from fighting. 1 or which is wood bound to keep the space between.

if you do what you say the bottom queen is likely to be stranded come spring and dead, so put the one you like better on top.

better plan would be to put them both in 5 frame Boxes stores to the top. Brood to the bottom.
Add a 3rd box for fall growth.

GG


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## spokexx

Gray Goose said:


> with one excluder as you describe the queens will still fight on the screen. it takes 2 to keep them from fighting. 1 or which is wood bound to keep the space between.
> 
> if you do what you say the bottom queen is likely to be stranded come spring and dead, so put the one you like better on top.
> 
> better plan would be to put them both in 5 frame Boxes stores to the top. Brood to the bottom.
> Add a 3rd box for fall growth.
> 
> GG


Im sorry, I think I confused you and myself. With the excluder in place between the two deep boxes (even a thicker wood bound excluder so they cant fight) it seems the UPPER queen will be the stranded/secluded one, the bottom queen is free to come and go if she pleases through the entrance at the bottom board. Am I right??


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## leadchunker

Why are you trying to combine the colonies? 1 brood box can be built up before winter. Start feeding them now and make sure your mite treatment is up to speed. They should be plenty strong before winter.


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## spokexx

leadchunker said:


> Why are you trying to combine the colonies? 1 brood box can be built up before winter. Start feeding them now and make sure your mite treatment is up to speed. They should be plenty strong before winter.


Im up to 5 hives now and don't wish to buy more equipment. It really comes down to that. 2 colonies are in my own homebuilt horizontal hives and 3 are in standard Langstroth hives.


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## Oldtimer

Yes you can do it. As per your suggested method but a few modifications.

Put 6 layers of newspaper on top of one of the brood boxes and on top of that a queen excluder. Then on top of that the other brood box or hive.

The top hive may take a while to chew through the paper and needs ventilation meantime, so you put a chip of wood on top of the queen excluder at each front corner of the hive to lift the top box just high enough for bees to get in and out so they have an entrance. Three weeks later you remove whatever is left of the paper.

When queens fight they have to do it in such a way that the winner is unharmed. So they grapple for position until one of them can make a fatal thrust into the other queen. They cannot do this through a queen excluder, so one excluder is all that is needed.

I used to work for an outfit that ran our hives as two queeners as standard procedure, and this is the method we used. Other than that we did it in spring and had them set up before the flow, and made the two units by splitting the hives.

Although I have described the method, because that is the question you asked, Leadchunker has a point. Now is not the optimum time to do this, there will be no advantage. It is not advisable to run the hives this way through winter you will very likely lose one of the queens. When I did it we pulled the excluders after the fall harvest and let the queens battle it out and return to being a one queen hive.


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## Gino45

I do newspaper combines, a not strong enough hive with a nuc on top to create a productive hive out of 2 that would not have been. It works well. This year, I did one of these because the flow was on and well,that same reason. Afterwards, I remember that the bottom one was a queen mother that I had intentionally kept slow. My bad! Well, this hive has turned out to be by far the most productive this year. It has an excluder above the second deep, and I am hoping that both queens are still going. I will find out when things slow down a little. So yes, 2 queen hives can work well.


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## Gray Goose

spokexx said:


> Im sorry, I think I confused you and myself. With the excluder in place between the two deep boxes (even a thicker wood bound excluder so they cant fight) it seems the UPPER queen will be the stranded/secluded one, the bottom queen is free to come and go if she pleases through the entrance at the bottom board. Am I right??


in winter the bees move up into stores at some point the queen cannot go with them, she is stuck on the excluder.


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## Gino45

I think that the better idea is to combine singles before or at the beginning of the flow. The purpose of 2 queens is to maximize honey prouction, is it not? When the flow is over, go back to one queen hives. That is unless you are doing side to side bottom boxes, each with a queen.


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## Amibusiness

If they are vigorous and well fed they can winter as a single just fine in upstate NY. I think they would he fine in PA as well. Leave them separate and aim for 6-7 frames honey (syrup) at the end of the fall flow. No need to buy equipment now


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## Steve in PA

casino boy said:


> Bernhard,
> You had a link for carricell requeening but it dosnt work now.
> Do you have a new link for it would like to try it.
> Looking for the queens really slows things down.
> Adding a cell in the fall would really help things allong thanks.


I was referred to this old thread by a question. To help anyone else who reads it a link to the article is here: PART 2 | carricell

Thanks everyone who shared their trials and experience.


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