# How do you treatment free beekeepers make it without Fumidil-B?



## sammyjay (May 2, 2011)

Hi, I was wondering how you treatment free beekeepers make it without Fumidil-B? I live in a place that has long, cold winters and can have cold, damp springs and falls, which from what I've read encourages nosema.

Nathan


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I noticed which hives seemed to have poop around and on them last winter and didn't increase from those hives.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The most prevalent nosema is N. ceranae according to stats. Fecal marking of hive fronts is the typical tattle tale of N. Apis. but usually not seen with ceranae. I would be interested to hear how most people discover it is affecting them.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

In 37 years of beekeeping, I've never used fumidil. Living without it has never been an issue. Neither has Nosema. Sometimes after confinement there is some dysentery, but that' s normal.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnosema.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#nosema


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

How do you treatment free beekeepers make it without Fumidil-B? 

That is the 64,000 dollar question, or at least what the answer will cost.

Nosema ceranae seems to kill every time, Nosema apis, very little. Don't breed from dead hives.

Crazy Roland


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I'm in a much warmer climate, but from what I've heard N. ceranae doesn't need the damp weather.
Last 2 winters we've only lost one hive. Don't have a microscope to check nosema levels Though. Took 7 into winter last year.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Roland said:


> Don't breed from dead hives.


That's basically it.


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## A'sPOPPY (Oct 13, 2010)

Roland said:


> How do you treatment free beekeepers make it without Fumidil-B?
> 
> That is the 64,000 dollar question, or at least what the answer will cost.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Good genetics. Buckfast bees were overwintered in nucs in a cold wet environment. Survivors were bred. Losers were culled.


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## sammyjay (May 2, 2011)

Thanks for your replies all. I have a carniolon hive that didn't get as much fumidil-b as it should, and if it makes it through the winter and spring maybe I'll breed from it.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Treatment Free = No Treatments

Fumidil-B = Treatment

Therefore . . . 

Treatment Free beekeepers don't use Fumidil-B ever.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm left scratching my head over this thread. How does treating every hive with a product on the off chance that it might come down with a disease fit into a plan to prevent resistance to that treatment?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Naturally, the answer would be that it doesn't.

Why do you ask? Resistance to treatments isn't the topic, nor would it be in the Treatment-Free Beekeeping forum.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

My question on resistance management stems from the presumption in the question originally asked in this thread how anyone "not treating" bees could possibly get by without applying a medication preemptively. That presumption seems based on a belief that all hives are equally inoculated and equally susceptible to a pathogen, or that hives should at least be medicated for that belief. From a massive medication regimen, resistance management should always be a consideration.

You're correct, it likely doesn't belong in a "treatment-free" thread, but the entire topic maybe doesn't belong in this section.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Thank you for the clarification.

I asked myself if it belonged, but if one doesn't ask, one will be less likely to find out. I'd rather the forum be open for the asking of any serious question.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

So if the question (minus the presumptions) does not belong in this forum. Where does it belong?
I read the OP as inquiring how to be able to stop treating. So far the answer seems to be to let the bees die. Sounds to me like the answer to never having any of the problems associated with beekeeping is to not keep bees. and this sort of problem solving is supposed to be admired, why?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Daniel, that last one is a good question, but it is too far off topic to be developed fully in this thread. Please start a new thread. Keep in mind that this forum is about discussing treatment free beekeeping, not for its adherents to be required to defend it.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I think the real point here, Daniel, is that simply applying a medication like this isn't really necessary. I've never used this particular product, and I haven't experienced any problems with Nosema. (I do not consider my beekeeping practices to be "treatment-free," and I would use various methods in beekeeping if conditions warranted.) Other beekeepers in this thread have already stated that they do not use this product and do not suffer losses from the target organism.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Wow, you guys read alot more into his question than I did. I believe he has a valid point. How do you control a know pathogen Nosema, without using any treatments (per the definitions here)? For you that have not experienced Nosema, it can have a 90 percent winter mortality rate in northern climates. That is unsustainable. With mites being a vector, I expect all of you to experience it soon. 

The answer may lie in irradiation, an expensive method. I do not believe it is considered a treatment on your list, because you are not treating the bees, but rather the hive that the bees have been in.

SOl- IS my prediction starting to make more sense?

Crazy ROland


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My problem with trying to answer it is, in 37 years I have never used it. Asking me how do you "make it without Fumidil-B" is like asking someone in a primitive village how can they possibly live without air conditioning...

But I think the real answer is that a natural system with the proper microbes will displace pathogens, where a system that is driven by antibiotics will have all kinds of issues as those beneficial and benign microbes have been wiped out.


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## wildforager (Oct 4, 2011)

Well said. Reminds me of a raw milk study. 2 stainless steel vats of milk were tested. One was pasturized and one was raw milk straight from the cow. E coli was introduced into each vat and a short time later the milk was tested in each vat. The pasturized milk was rampant with e coli and the raw milk had no trace. Like Mr. Bush said, "the proper microbes will displace pathogens" and this study proved it.



Michael Bush said:


> My problem with trying to answer it is, in 37 years I have never used it. Asking me how do you "make it without Fumidil-B" is like asking someone in a primitive village how can they possibly live without air conditioning...
> 
> But I think the real answer is that a natural system with the proper microbes will displace pathogens, where a system that is driven by antibiotics will have all kinds of issues as those beneficial and benign microbes have been wiped out.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

A few years back when nosema ceranae became the "disease de jour" the thinking among many commercials was that you weren't being prudent if you weren't treating. I have treated with fumidil, I have "treated" with HBH and I have not treated at all. I have seen really mixed results. I have come to the conclusion that nosema is so fickle and hard to accurately test for (and yes I have a microscope) that dollars spent treating nosema may not be dollars well spent at all. The conundrum is that to be effective you must treat the winter cluster which requires a fairly late application which in itself can be problematic. Throw in the potential for breeding strains of fumidil resistant nosema and I think a pretty good case can be made for no treatment perhaps being the best treatment.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I think the point here is, simply, a number of people are not using anything prophylactically against Nosema and are not experiencing any significant losses from Nosema (or maybe not even seeing any symptoms of Nosema at all). Absolutely, I expect losses to be significant if/when Nosema infects yard. But the loss percentage cited, I believe, is for hives infected with _Nosema ceranae_. And treating for any pest or pathogen when that organism is not even present must take into consideration 1) the potential for that pest or pathogen to become a problem in the amount of time that the treatment will remain effective, and, 2) the potential for resistance to develop and how quickly that resistance will develop from use of a treatment.


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## sammyjay (May 2, 2011)

Thanks for all your replies.


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