# mites?



## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. If it was impossible, no one would be doing it. There are a lot of different factors that can determine how successful you are such as: whether you're starting with bees that are more tolerant, how many mites you start with, how many colonies are in the neighborhood and whether they are collapsing and send you more mites, how experienced you are with keeping bees. The weather and nutrition are also factors. Some have better luck, some don't. How determined are you to be successful?


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Go to tfb.podbean.com The last two are good.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

BeeHoosier said:


> I don't want to keep propping up a weak genetic line or promote future problems so I am interested in gaining more insight on how keepers deal with the mite issue?


I don't treat. I use mostly bees from cutouts, feral swarms, and a little VSH. I build my own hives using cedar. All eight frame medium. I use some small cell plastic foundation, some foundationless, and some standard size plastic foundation. No wax foundation. I don't feed except in emergencies and special circumstances usually involving a new cutout. If I want to sell more honey, I build more hives. I raise more bees than I want. I sell nucs and have had very few losses yet. I leave the bees plenty of their own honey and try not to stress them. I listen to older beekeepers and try to keep things as simple, effortless, and fun as I can.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

I keep reading this and related articles over and over again to pass time through this winter - http://scientificbeekeeping.com/choosing-your-troops-breeding-mite-fighting-bees/ . There is some good practical advice over there, especially around where to start, what to expect and what is realistic.

I also read about Sue Cobey work and optimistic to see people working on genetic diversity programs etc.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

BeeHoosier said:


> I also see where there are a fair amount of keepers that do not treat and still have thriving hives.


A fair amount? Thriving? Please clarify. How many keepers? And what does thriving mean? You have some numbers to describe thriving? As none of the major TF proponents and gurus on this forum ever give numbers, how do you know their bees are thriving? One major TF beekeeper/author on this forum loses 90% in the winter. Thriving?

And another hasn't the time to look at his bees from spring to July. But you know the bees are thriving? How would you know without numbers...which will never be posted. Faith? Your own interpretation of BS, TF dogma?

Once again I call for % wintering success, per colony honey produced, % increase from nucs/splits raised, queens reared, and any other numbers related to the productivity of their TF apiaries. Don't hold your breath.

Until there are numbers posted to this forum I say the whole thing is a round luncheon meat...Bologna!


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> A fair amount? Thriving? Please clarify. How many keepers? And what does thriving mean? You have some numbers to describe thriving? As none of the major TF proponents and gurus on this forum ever give numbers, how do you know their bees are thriving? One major TF beekeeper/author on this forum loses 90% in the winter. Thriving?
> 
> And another hasn't the time to look at his bees from spring to July. But you know the bees are thriving? How would you know without numbers...which will never be posted. Faith? Your own interpretation of BS, TF dogma?
> 
> ...


"This forum is for those who wish to discuss Treatment-Free Beekeeping, not for them to be required to defend it." I went into late fall with twenty or so hives. I picked up a late swarm in a swarm trap. I've done two emergency cutouts in the last month, one of which didn't make it. I lost two hives. White clover is blooming today. I now have about twenty hives doing well in a total of four locations. I harvest about sixty percent or a little more as much as my buddies in this area who treat and feed aggressively. I am tired of repeating this.



> Once again I call for % wintering success, per colony honey produced, % increase from nucs/splits raised, queens reared, and any other numbers related to the productivity of their TF apiaries.


You are very important, and I have learned a lot from your videos.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Michael, I respect your knowledge of beekeeping, but not your bologna comment. I'm a sideliner with no interest in taking my hobby professional. I did that with one hobby already and it is no longer the source of pleasure I knew in years past. I could easily have 50 or 100 colonies of treatment free bees now, but instead have sold off colonies to get other beekeepers started. I don't post much about my results here because it is my business - in every sense of the word - and not yours or any one else on this forum. I will however give a partial response since you insist on something concrete. If I can do this on a small scale, you could do it on a larger scale. Why haven't you?

14 colonies
5 dinks
9 productive
35 gallons of honey, all sold at $15/quart or else given away to family, last of it was sold this week.
1 spring swarm got away at an outyard
3 small late swarms of which 2 got away
no treatments since 2004, went treatment free in 2005
I lost one colony this winter 2015/2016 from queen failure

I am doing a lot of retrofitting this year to get my bees in better equipment and to manage them for honey production. I have 20 queens ordered from Carpenter for delivery mid March, 7 of them sold to local beekeepers, the remainder will be used to produce splits most of which will be sold to get other beekeepers started. This ties in nicely with my choice to change to Dadant depth square hives since I can sell colonies in the old equipment.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

He did say he would appreciate information pro or con . And thank you Michael.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Hoosier, I believe you are right to focus on mites as the key thing to pay attention to. DarJones has responded from the South. I will respond from Wisconsin - a piece of a cheesehead to go with the Bologna  I started on Beesource before I got bees. I have kept a relatively low profile on the TF front, but as one of my heroes has challenged I cannot refuse to answer. With respect I will point out that there is virtually nobody who will give you an accounting of their year-by-year successes or failures whether they are treaters or non-treaters. Beekeepers tend to keep those figures as private as their bank balances. 

My mainstay method of increase has been the MDA splitter method, but instead of growing them into single 10 framers or double deep 10 framers as Mel does I establish them in 5 frames and then add 5 undrawn frames above in another nuc box which they draw out. They are fed to a gross weight of 75 pounds by fall.

I arrived at this method when I realized (in my third spring) that the 4/11 that had survived had all endured a broodbreak. I surmised that this, in combination with our northern winter, was a difference maker. Since then I have read everything, and watched everything I can from Mel Disselkoen and Michael Palmer. 

Here are my lifetime overall *wintering survival numbers *to 2015. I am at 50/61 to date in 2016, but the winter is not over yet. Note that the column that says nuc means bees kept in 5 frames - most colonies in 5 frames have had a broodbreak. Production colonies are colonies that have raised a honey crop and then I have attempted to overwinter them. I have bees in three yards, until 2014 all my colonies were in my home yard. 

*Year Nucs Production Colonies Comments*
2008/9 - 1/1 TBH from a package
2009/10 - 4/4 Bought 2 packages
2010/11 1/2 3/9 
2011/12 9/9 12/12 Bought 2 packages
2012/13 15/18 7/12
2013/14 32/35 4/4
2014/15 46/54 3/10
*Totals * 103/118 34/52 137/170
87% 65% 81%


I have set my system up with the intention of never having to buy replacement colonies because, as MP says in his videos, that is what destroys one's ability to keep going. I plan to run a dozen or so colonies each year for production and then enter winter with a healthy reserve of colonies to replace the production colonies and make increase again. I sell my excess colonies each spring. If you wish to see how this looks you are welcome to take a look at my Youtube channel "Quiney Honey and Bee". I am sold out for 2016.


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## BeeHoosier (Feb 21, 2016)

Very good info so far, that is exactly what I was looking for. I am appreciative of the the detailed responses so far. Thanks you for your insight. I am continuing to gather info (via this forum, books, magazines, and journals) as I prepare to start a hive or two in the future.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

How to deal with the mite issue?

Continue to make splits and oav 
them when needed. This is the first
stage when starting out.
As your colony grows more find queens
that are tf to buy. Then proceed
to select the mite resistant queens to graft.
The goal is to find the resistant bees from the
selected few. For example, in a hive there are
some worker bees that exhibit the allogrooming
behaviors. I already documented this on a vid to 
demonstrate as some beekeepers here do not believe and
have never seen such a behavior before. This is another form of the hygienic behavior other
than the mite biting ability. Now only if I can graft some of these
queens to head my colony this season. It can be done if given
enough time to do so. Do the mites still stand a chance
when the whole hive is full of these help each other out grooming bees? And don't forget about the
mite biting bees too. Wonder how powerful the bees are when combining these 2
behavior traits together. Can these behavior be learned from one bee to another? Will be fun to
see when conducting my little bee experiment this season.
Propagating these bees to flood my isolated area should be an interesting project for years to come.

Grafted virgins from the allogrooming hive:


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> A fair amount? Thriving? Please clarify. How many keepers? And what does thriving mean? You have some numbers to describe thriving? As none of the major TF proponents and gurus on this forum ever give numbers, how do you know their bees are thriving? One major TF beekeeper/author on this forum loses 90% in the winter. Thriving?
> 
> And another hasn't the time to look at his bees from spring to July. But you know the bees are thriving? How would you know without numbers...which will never be posted. Faith? Your own interpretation of BS, TF dogma?
> 
> ...


I agree, and also, I would also be sceptical even if numbers were produced. Alot of folks like you, love the treatment free concept and are willing to pay more for it. So bee careful, money is the root of all evil.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

So when I sell a colony of treatment free bees to a beginner to get them started that means I'm chiseling someone out of a hard earned $50? Yes, you read it right. I sell colonies to locals to get them started for $50. Why don't I just give them away? Because people don't appreciate things unless they have some money tied up.

I went to the Shelby County beekeepers meeting today in Montevallo Alabama to hear Michael Bush talk about his beekeeping methods. I disagree significantly with his conclusions, but he is at least doing the right things to keep his bees alive and thriving sans treatments. When it comes to bees and mite treatments, if you are not part of the solution, you ARE the problem!

Post how much you spent on nostrums and apivar for the past year. Tell how much time you spent treating your bees to keep them alive. Tell how many times you cut out drone brood in an effort to limit the number of mites. Get some skin in the game. Lets get down to brass tacks and talk about the real cost of treating for mites. You owe it to everyone here to post how much YOU spend on treatments!


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

rookie2531 said:


> I agree, and also, I would also be sceptical even if numbers were produced. Alot of folks like you, love the treatment free concept and are willing to pay more for it. So bee careful, money is the root of all evil.


So,, "they" are lying if "they" don't, & lying if "they" do


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

BeeHoosier said:


> I appreciate any pro or con info. Thanks!


I won't offer any pro or con info. I will strongly suggest that you keep tabs on your mite loads. Whether you plan to treat or not. Make every effort to do an objective measurement...especially late in the season.
Then, whether you lose colonies or not....you are informed on one important aspect of that loss or survival.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

rookie2531 said:


> I agree, and also, I would also be sceptical even if numbers were produced. Alot of folks like you, love the treatment free concept and are willing to pay more for it. So bee careful, money is the root of all evil.


I agree that money is the root of many problems. But parse what's going on and you will find a willingness of tf to have "less" production in the pursuit of bees that survive. Treating on the other hand doesn't accept the losses necessary for selection. So who is the one who is being greedy? Its a bit akin to slashing the R&D budget of a company to bolster a quarterly bottom line or shipping jobs overseas instead of supporting the local economy. Short term benefit, long term pain.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

In a recent survey of Florida beekeepers over a two year period treatment free respondents lost 15% of colonies. Beekeepers that treat lost 41%. The study did not detail what treatments or conditions were in the apiaries. 
Most ~90% of Florida beekeepers are residential backyard beekeepers with less than three hives. Florida gained 5% while the nation experienced hive loss. 
OA is a chemical treatment and a calcium depleater in humans. That means if absorbed by the beekeeper from prolonged or frequent or excessive exposure, your heart may stop before its time. Hardware store OA may also have chemicals that may not be present in bee/beekeeper friendly OA.
Treatment - treatment free is also a management and genetic problem. If the queen open mates with treated drones they may be partially sterile, have less resistance to parasites and pathogens, and be related to the queen if from the same stock causing genetic depression. Depression is not an emotional problem in genetics. It is susceptibility to pest, pathogens, and nutrition absorption. Treating drone generating hives just increases the likelihood of poor genetics spreading. If the drones weren't on chemicals they could not compete in mating.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> A fair amount? Thriving? Please clarify. How many keepers? And what does thriving mean? You have some numbers to describe thriving? As none of the major TF proponents and gurus on this forum ever give numbers, how do you know their bees are thriving? One major TF beekeeper/author on this forum loses 90% in the winter. Thriving?
> 
> And another hasn't the time to look at his bees from spring to July. But you know the bees are thriving? How would you know without numbers...which will never be posted. Faith? Your own interpretation of BS, TF dogma?
> 
> ...


Amen brother.


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## SwampCat (Jul 14, 2011)

Treatment free here - down to 22 hives today because I just sold two hives. I lose between 10 and 15% of the hives per year - with almost all of the losses coming spring and summer due to loss of queen. Average 50 lbs of honey per year for an established hive. Could probably do a little better if I had drawn foundation for all supers. Don't really every remember losing a nuc or a split - but it might have happened. Lost two hives last summer and one this past winter. The one I lost this past winter was due to starvation - the first I have ever had starve to death. I provide no supplemental feeding during the winter - but I do live in S Arkansas. My bees are probably a little more aggressive than average. No crop land within feeding distance of my bees - mostly pasture, forest, and lake. Started out with two hives about seven or eight years ago. Built up through splits, swarms, a couple of purchased nucs, and bought a couple of hives. I used to buy queens when a hive lost its queen - now I provide frames of eggs from other hives - I might have to do it several times. If they don't make it, then I write it off as a hive not suited for local conditions, anyway - survival of the fittest. Keep waiting for the crash most bee keepers warn me about - but so far - it hasn't come.


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