# Cut Down Split



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I was intrigued to listen to Loyd spears and Marion Ellis talking about how with a cut down split the brood nest gets filled with honey and then when the queen starts to lay the bees will move it all up out of the brood nest into the comb honey quite quickly.

But what about all those chemicals? Why does this not prove what the "organiclly" minded among us have said all along. An excluder will not stop bees from moving honey around!

Of course I'm not worried about it for me. But these men are the mainstream and are certainly advocating the recommended treatments.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Mmmm - reminds me of the Green honey story from England.

Keith


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## Timbo61 (May 19, 2004)

Green Honey? What story is that?

Timbo


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I would be interested to see the time frame from when the hive has chemicals in it, to the period of time the honey was or is collected and placed in the brood chamber, to the period of time that the split happens, to the time frame and which honey is moved into the supers. Honey collected and placed in the brood chamber, even if moved, would of been collected after the chemicals should of been long removed. Unless you are talking about residual trace amounts in wax. 

Most chemicals found in honey is from bad application of the chemicals in the first place. It can be done safely, with no or very little residue in the honey supers, if applied correctly and ignorance is not running rampid.

If you are CORRECTLY using chemicals, than you probably stand a much LARGER chance of picking chemicals up through what your nieghbor is placing in the garden down the street. Something that actually destroys the whole "organic" concept for many beekeepers across the country. I'll use the chemicals correctly when testing dictates, not preventative.

I wonder if half of the so-called "I'm chemical free" crowd, actually even know what they eat from the super-market, fast-food place, or pre-packaged food item. I wonder how many actually do a fitness workout three times a week, are not over-wieght, don't smoke, don't drink, and lead as much of an advertised "healthy" lifestyle, when not talking on this site, about the bees they keep. Hmmm.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

That's a nice theory, Bjorn. But I've watched my observation hive and as long as they don't run out of stores there is capped honey that stays that way for a year or more in the brood chamber. It could have been capped anytime and could be used or moved anytime. The bees don't keep track of whether the syrup had chemicals in it or not.

If it doesn't matter then why not harvest honey from the brood chamber without worrying about chemcials? Everyone advises against it and yet the bees are "harvesting" it for you in the sense that they moved it from the brood chamber to a super where you take it off.

I'm sure the bees are exposed to a lot of chemicals in the environment. But I still see a major difference between what they are exposed to and what I directly administer to the hive. The impact (to the bees and humans) of what is directly administered are bound to be larger even as the quantities of the chemcicals are bound to be significantly larger.


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Apparently during one of the world wars - I cannot remember which, Sugar was rationed as bee feed and tinted green to prevent resale to consumers. Syrup made with this green sugar, and was fed to bees, ended up in the honey supers contrary to what some folks will tell you. In essence, the bees moved honey from the brood chamber up to the supers to make troom for spring expansion.

If you could feed precisely what the bees need and nothing more so as to prevent them from storing feed you might be onto something - but I cannot see how taht can be assured. Bottom line - bees move everything around the hive. this makes the notion that you can treat a brood box and not a super a little suspect.

Keith

I may have some of the details wrong as to the place and the exact time but the essentials are there.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Which of my statements are you now calling a theory? I asked some questions, made a few statements, but theories? Another Hmm. You would think they would shut down the chemicals with all this "the sky is falling crap". I see chemicals applied to apples, vine crops, and every other edible food source, but they themselves as an industry do not openly condemn any of it. They see it as needed, and when done correctly, done safely also. I wonder why some feel beekeepers are any different than any other farmer out there? Guess it gives them the warm fuzzy to so all that.

They can test my honey anytime, and I sell lots of it without any complaints. The average beekeeper uses strips in the hives, and most I've encountered that do not have one other kind of hives....thats dead.

I do not experience honey being moved from the hive chamber to the supers on any level that the average beekeeper, who uses chemicals responsible, would have to concern themselves with.

I wish my hives would learn to move that honey bound frames in the spring so easily to make room for the queen that others say "happen so easily". I never had a hive yet, after putting on supers, had the bees move the honey up to the supers as people suggest must happen all the time. Hmmm.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

As for the "story" of "green Honey" from England that is from some 60 years ago, that is not referenced to an article, book, or any other material, and could at this point be coming from rumor, urban legend status, or just a story past down from the ages, and you know how they change from time to time....I'll make the following points.

Perhaps the story originated from a beekeeper trying to adulterate his honey with rationed "dyed" sugar, and sell it off as honey. Adulteration was a major problem at that time with sugar, and was looked at very much. Some beekeepers actually think the bees would "cleanse" the dye from the sugar-water, and it would not be noticed.

Maybe the green honey in the super came from honey or sugar water that was robbed from another hive. It does tend to happen. 

Maybe the beekeeper was not doing what he was suppose to with the sugar water, somehow trying to beat the system. Must we assume this story was based on a completely competent beekeeper who did things by the book, with no motive, no self interest, and no procedural flaws? My, it would be nice if all beekeepers were this way, with everything perfect. Too bad its not the case.

Was the details of this story told from a viewpoint that bees move honey from brood chambers to supers, or was made from a point of another (like adulteration), than over time made to fit some other justification or meaning.

Facts and data can be bent, or told in many ways, depending on how you want it to be read.

I would be interested in how many beekeepers see this event of putting on honey supers above the honey bound brood chamber, then having the bees start moving the honey up into the supers. I only wish it were that easy.


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## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

I don't really want to get into this but...

I don't think anyone is badmouthing the 99% of beekeepers out there that use medication/chems. It has almost become a necessity for many and practically a must for any large scale producer.

However, there *IS* a market for honey from chemical free hives and you can charge more $/lb. The whole debate about whether chemicals are in the honey aside, the comsumer STILL will prefer honey from hives w/o chemicals. I live in one of the most froo froo cities(Atlanta) and they all buy bigtime into the whole organic scene. So I see this market firsthand.

Nobody is attacking anybody, it's just a difference of opinion and practicality.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

"organic certification" is one thing. And yes there a big market for it. If you have any farming operation or community within 2 miles of your hives, than organic certification is hard to achieve. Land use maps and chemical plans would have to be completed. In Pennsylvania, not one beekeeper is certified organic at this time. And the way the requirements are written, no one will probably ever be.
I sell alot of honey as "local, natural, pure, straight from the hive, and raw". Nobody has ever asked me about chemical free. Once I was asked about "organic" but this is totally different than anyone making a claim about being a chemical free beekeeper. 

As for any claims of "chemical free", anyone can say this. There is no certification process as with the organic stamp of approval. And I would bet money that most saying they are chemical free, never had there honey tested in any way. Organic and chemical free hives are not the same. Bees will bring chemicals in from alot of sources. Claiming you have chemical free beekeeping practices, are different from claiming you have chemical free honey.

As for the rest, no one is bad mouthing anything. Its just a discussion.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Actually von Frisk talks about tained sugar for beekeepers. He did some studies on different sugars that could be used for feeding bees and the results of his studies were used to regulate sugar distribution during ww2 and afterwards. There is a sugar (I can't remember which, but I can look it up), that is sweet to the bees and they gather it, but tastes bitter to humans. It was used to ensure that beekeepers were buying this cheaper and not for human consumption sugar so that beekeepers had a ready access to sugar feed for their bees. Its use was very limited though and they stopped distributing it because although it "worked" beekeepers stopped buying it buying it because they couldn't use it for their cooking needs.

Essentially it worked in theory and practice, but not at the marketplace.

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Scot Mc Pherson
Foundationless Small Cell Top Bar Hives
BeeWiki: <A HREF="http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/beewiki/" TARGET=_blank>
http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/beewiki/</A>
Pics:
http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/pics/bees/


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Here is the excerpt from teh book.
pages 42-43:

...I thought that I might be able to help teh public authorities in the following way. In many countries beekeepers are allowed to buy sugar at low cost to feed their bees for th witnertime. Such encourgement to beekeeping serves to increase the number of colonies kept through the winter and thus improves honey production and the pollination of flowers and crop plants. But the cheap sugar this placed at the disposal of the beekeepers is supposed to be used only in the beehive , and not in the kitchen. To assure that this sugar was used only as intended, especially during the war years, it was desireable to mix something with the sugar which would make it useless for human consumption. But it was not easy to find a suitable denaturing substance. Etiher a compound was not efficient in producing a bad taste for men, or it had a disagreeable taste for bees as well. I proposed that sugar mixed with a small amount of octoacetylsucrose, which I had found to be very bitter for men but tasteless to bee. There was an initial difficulty in that this was a rare and expensive substance. But the chimical industry was able to work out a method for its production at low cost, and it was given the trade name "Octosan." It proved especially suitable for our purpose because it was a chemical compound of sucrose and acetic acid, and therefore quite harmless for both bees and men. Moreover, during the honey-rippening process in the beehive it decomposed after several weeks, so that its bitter taste was not imparted to the honey (O. Wahl, 1937).
Octosan was introduced in Slovakia, Bohemia, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Holland and Belgium , and it proved practicable over a number of years. But in other countries the beekeepers would not agree to feed their precious bees such a disgusting sugar. Perhaps some of them disliked this type of sugar chiefly because it was not useful for cooking....

<End quote>

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Scot Mc Pherson
Foundationless Small Cell Top Bar Hives
BeeWiki: <A HREF="http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/beewiki/" TARGET=_blank>
http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/beewiki/</A>
Pics:
http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/pics/bees/


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

I should also mention that honey from Brazilian Pepper Trees is green in hue and is most often sold as bakery grade honey.

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Scot Mc Pherson
Foundationless Small Cell Top Bar Hives
BeeWiki: <A HREF="http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/beewiki/" TARGET=_blank>
http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/beewiki/</A>
Pics:
http://linuxfromscratch.org/~scot/pics/bees/


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Hey all,
We know from studies cited here that feral bees are making a come back slow but sure. This would make sense in the great scheme of mother nature survival of the fittest, adaption or extinction. SO theory only... man's attempt to harness and manipulate the honey bee and a failure to realize multipule cell sizes in the hive contributed to the vorroa problem in the first place. Organic beekeepers here in Germany have found breeding survivors has resulted in what they claim to be a mite resistant strain. They also had no bees to sell last year due to great losses getting there. These keepers state that they have used no chemicals for 2 years (one has an english site and can be viewed at imkerikober at aol dot de). If this is true then does it not make sense to discontinue the use of foundation and chemicals. This year I purchased 3 pkgs from them I will not treat for naything they are on thier own the jury is out lets see what happens!
Gary
Procrastination is the assination of inspiration!


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

I'm not familiar with a cut down split, but from my very limited experience, bees do not move honey from the brood box to the supers. I let my 3 packages go probably a little too long before adding supers thinking the population pressure would encourage them to work the foundation in the supers quicker. When I did add the supers, I found the brood boxes (2 deeps per hive)quite honeybound. I thought they would move honey to make more room for the queen to lay, but they did not. They are filling the supers rather quickly, but the amount in the brood boxes has decreased very little -- and that's probably due to consumption not relocation. 

I think there have been many programs that start with a lot of hives and don't treat at all for varroa hoping to end up with only the resistant bees. Many of them ended up with 100% mortality. That's probably because they constantly combined weak hives where the varroa load would overwhelm even the most resistant bees. Of the ones that do survive, I wonder if anyone has measured the bee size or the development time from egg to adult. Everyone seems to get hung up on hygenic behavior being the only reason. Supposedly varroa originated somewhere in southeast Asia, but the bees there were resistant. I wonder if those bees are smaller than the ones we have here.

[This message has been edited by GaSteve (edited July 15, 2004).]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Supposedly varroa originated somewhere in southeast Asia, but the bees there were resistant. I wonder if those bees are smaller than the ones we have here.

Interestingly, the varroa there seem to be similar but have different MDNA so they are not the same.

I beleive they are smaller. But the varroa in those hives almost exlusively infest the drone brood and not the workers. Perhaps this is because of pheromones, or perhap it's because of cell size.


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