# Canadian border open?



## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

If true, that would make for some interesting news. At best... I bet it is just packages... if anything.

If it were wide-open.... It would make a nice place for some southern bees to spend the summer.... I wonder which would be better... Manitoba or Saskatchewan? Just get out of there before the snow flies...


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sure hope so, its getting to crowded in N.Y.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Just a rumor for now.


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## Matt Beekman (Dec 15, 2007)

Nick can you offer some more info. on where you heard the rumor and under what terms? I read recently that Blueberry growers in Canada were looking into opening the border so that they could source US bees at a cheaper costs for pollination. Would be a game changer.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

Border is not YET open to package bees.....patience lads.....very high losses in many parts of Canada,and growing blueberry pollination in Quebec and maritime' s. Meeting 's are being held, livelihoods are at stake, a bee business without bees is not a viable business.
It should have never been closed in the first place, it only bought us time in dealing with varroa and the African bee was never a threat.
Bureaucrat bungling ,the powers to be ,knew nothing ,feared the African bee and only that some beekeepers were successfully wintering their whole outfit and getting huge crops to boot.It first closed in Eastern Canada then a year later in the west....it may open the same way and just as fast as it closed. The border will I bet remain closed to bees on comb, same rule as was when it closed


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

The boys up in peace river area are pushing (suit) pretty hard to get packages in.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

hpm08161947 said:


> Just get out of there before the snow flies...


will it ever stop!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

How long has the boarder been closed to bees on comb? 

What will change if packages are allowed across, if anything other than more sales for southern package producers and better availability of bees for Canadian producers?

Irwin, do you know why there is huge opposition from Canadian producers to allowing the boarder to open to US packages? I do not understand why there is so much opposition,


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Ian said:


> Irwin, do you know why there is huge opposition from Canadian producers to allowing the boarder to open to US packages? I do not understand why there is so much opposition,


I'm not Irwin, but I have been doing a little reading on this subject - ever since I read "Bad Beekeeping" by Miksa. Today's objections by Canadians seem to be based on a belief that SHB and AHB will follow an opening of the border. Highly unlikely, I would think.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

I believe at some point of time in the past , early 1970's-60's American colonies were used in the Maritime 's to pollinate blueberries, an American company ,Bragg Lumber worked pollination on both sides of the border,permits were issued, pollination done, bees returned stateside


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

"do you know why there is huge opposition from Canadian producers to allowing the boarder to open to US packages?"

Be-careful for what wish for ,sometimes you get more than what you bargained for. US honey producers would love to have access to the vast Canadian land mass and its bountiful honey flows, and would probably allow Canadians access to Almond pollination .More regulation , would accompany this, most provinces do not have registered beeyards like Montana and the Dakotas and a limited distance between those beeyards.I believe the figure was 600,000 colonies in North Dakota on registered sites.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

why would allowing packages across equal access for american migratory beekeepers?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

hpm08161947 said:


> Today's objections by Canadians seem to be based on a belief that SHB and AHB will follow an opening of the border. Highly unlikely, I would think.


SHB are already in the southern Ontario fruit growing area.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

"why would allowing packages across equal access for american migratory beekeepers? " It shouldn't but you should look at the NAFTA agreement, the US might ask for an open border as a condition of supplying packages


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## Markt (Feb 8, 2012)

Just one county with a heavy quarantine zone around it, nothing in or out that hasn't been frozen in a reefer for at least 3 days


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

irwin harlton said:


> "why would allowing packages across equal access for american migratory beekeepers? " It shouldn't but you should look at the NAFTA agreement, the US might ask for an open border as a condition of supplying packages


and thats the crutch of all of the opposition. I see. 

Im in favour of bringing in packages, but I dont feel loosing our forage territory is worth bringing in packages, 
hope the boys know what they are doing

At least we have a government with some balls right now


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## Jonathan Hofer (Aug 10, 2005)

Ian said:


> I dont feel loosing our forage territory is worth bringing in packages


Agreed! Is this an example of short-term gain vs. long term pain?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Prior to the Border Closing.... were there many USA- Bees north of the border foraging for Canadian honey? I have no clue.


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## busy bee apiary (Aug 7, 2010)

Hey Irwin, I like your way of thinking. I run bees along an 80 mile stretch of Canadian border. When making locations the game plan is the closer to the border the better many of which are just a few yards away. I've often thought it's just a tease to the untapped potential north of the USA. ehh! Afterall there's no comparison in the honey making potential of a package and a parent hive running wide open. I can't be the only one with this crazy idea. Lol.

P.S. no offense with the ehh my dads side are all Canadian.


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## Matt Beekman (Dec 15, 2007)

Question for Canadian beekeepers: if packages were allowed, do you think there would be a demand for queenless packages?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Matt Beekman said:


> Question for Canadian beekeepers: if packages were allowed, do you think there would be a demand for queenless packages?


I would buy packages with queens


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Where are Canadians currently allowed to import queens from?


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Queens are imported from Hawaii - there referred to as Kona queens, so must be big island. Our packages are imported from New Zealand. A 1 kg package cost $143 two years ago. Queens were $26 last year.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

mgolden said:


> Queens are imported from Hawaii - there referred to as Kona queens, so must be big island. Our packages are imported from New Zealand. A 2 kg package cost $143 two years ago. Queens were $26 last year.


I suppose a $3 QC and $70 packages isn't attractive enough for Canada to consider lifting the border. Even with Kona Queens and New Zealand packages, isn't a certain amount of genetic stagnation a problem? From below the border it looks like lifting the border would be a win-win situation for Canada.... but then again I have not walked in your shoes.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

genetic stagnation? what are you talking about? We have queens coming in from all around the world, lots of genetic diversity here,


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Ian said:


> genetic stagnation? what are you talking about? We have queens coming in from all around the world, lots of genetic diversity here,


I was assuming the previous responder was correct and it was only Kona... Sorry....


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

A lot of Cali queens make it here every year


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

IMHO if the border were to open, supply and demand as well as red tape would probably drive the package price considerably above $70.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Queens make it from New Zealand, Australia, Chile, Hawaii, California.

Jean-Marc


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

Canada would be flooded with american honey colonies, and half of canadian beekeepers would be in california driving down polination contracts. + what Allen said about package prices. Lose Lose. No thanks


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

irwin harlton said:


> "why would allowing packages across equal access for american migratory beekeepers? " It shouldn't but you should look at the NAFTA agreement, the US might ask for an open border as a condition of supplying packages


That is what I was thinking. Opening the border to package bees only will cause the price of packages to rise in the U.S. This will put a strain on U.S. beekeepers therefore the need for more summer territory.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

And I would think that Canadians would insist on opening the border to Canadian pollinators who would lower the pollination fees in the Almonds and probably the eastern coast blueberries. Of course, there usually is a flaw in isolationist economics somewhere...


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## Birds&Bees (Feb 26, 2009)

How many 2 pound packages can bees off the almonds average? At best I'm would guess 3 per hive. I would think producing packages could be more lucrative than chasing honey in the Dakotas and a lot less trouble. Should access to southern packages be allowed, I wouldn't assume Canadian honey producers won't overwinter their bees. The number of hives on the prairies has regressed and stagnated since the border closure. Increased access to replacement stock is vital to maintain and grow our potential. With 600,000 colonies just to the south of our border, it is foolish to think we're keeping out any potential problems, they're all here at the moment. For example, last summer, strong southern winds blew up leaf hoppers which in turn brought us yellow aster disease which decimated a vast portion of the prairie canola crops. Hive beetles were found in operations in southern MB. The mite is here and is the biggest problem by far.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Letting packages back in to Canada seems like a good idea to me. After all, the USA is open to Canadian honey. Seems we should be able to sell you packages.It worked ok for many years.

Opening the border to hives may not be such a great idea. If the US/Canada border were to open to hive movements, Mexico could also demand access to the almond orchards and Canadian prairies. The drug cartels would love that.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

To me, it appears that it is mostly a political issue. And since most Canadians seem against the idea..... and since most USA types, don't really seem to care either way, it appears that little is likely to change. Unless, of course, there is some immediate problem.... like insufficient bees to pollinate the BC blueberries. Is there truth to that rumor?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

loggermike said:


> The drug cartels would love that.


ha ha ha ha


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

I think you have to look back to when the border closed and why, somebody in the powers to be, looked at the logistics of all those packages moving on farm trucks, not to many semi's back then.The potential of a crash and possible Africanized bees involved.The outflow of Canadian dollars when apparently bees could be wintered successfully in a normal year.Varroa had landed in Florida and was spreading like wildfire.It was not known how far the African bee would spread or how much it would become part of the American beekeeping scene.
Somebody or persons took a deep look at the industry as it was and said...this is crazy,and the border closed


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Funny how SC would know about a shortage of honeybees on blueberry pollination in BC. There is truth to that not rumor. Some growers behaved as if bees were like pizza's... just call and presto 2 days later there they are. The shortage is multifactorial but mostly brought about by the growers. Better planning on their part, fostering long term relationships, insuring good returns on investments for beekeepers and presto no shortage.

Jean-Marc


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

jean-marc said:


> Funny how SC would know about a shortage of honeybees on blueberry pollination in BC.
> Jean-Marc


I wonder if you would be surprised at how many Canadians spend their winters and retire around here? Canadian topics come up more often than one might think. Ever since you guys got those Americans (Embassy) out of Iran during the 80's, Canadians can do no wrong around here....


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Irwin, its understandable why the border was closed. There was a lot of over reaction going on down here when the T-mites first started showing up, then varroa. But eventually we all got the nasties, and learned to deal with them (mostly). Is there any point to keeping it closed now?

>>Some growers behaved as if bees were like pizza's... just call and presto 2 days later there they are.<<

Lol


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## Slow Modem (Oct 6, 2011)

hpm08161947 said:


> I'm not Irwin, but I have been doing a little reading on this subject - ever since I read "Bad Beekeeping" by Miksa. Today's objections by Canadians seem to be based on a belief that SHB and AHB will follow an opening of the border. Highly unlikely, I would think.


If the bugs are headed that way, I don't think an imaginary line (border) is going to stop them from entering Canada.


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

I can see the border opening to package bees. As far as US beekeepers coming to Canada for polination contracts, most would find there is not a great demand here for that. If they are coming here for honey production, that is going to open a whole new problem for them when it comes to harvesting. Are they going to extract here or truck supers home? If they are going to extract here then foriegn ownership of property creates a new set of problems they would have to deal with or it may just create a new industry for beekeepers here who have the capacity in thier operation to extract on a commercial basis.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

how many America outfits can cross the boarder without leaving their entire staff behind because of immigration,
Canadian crop sharing ops would start up everywhere, and the industry just turned the wrong direction, hmmmm


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Ian said:


> how many America outfits can cross the boarder without leaving their entire staff behind because of immigration,


 best point I have heard yet.


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

Ok so queens & packages are in short supply to be put mildly speaking this year in the USA.
So lets next year add in another poor summer, tough losses in the fall & winter & just for kicks lets add in a 7 to 10 day weather delay for queen mating problems & then we have what??? 
American producers can sell every thing they can produce here in the states & then it's still a headache.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

In the past some Californians owned Canadian honey businesses, and shook packages here to stock the northern outfit. Workers from both countries would work both sides of the border doing almond pollination then shaking bees, then on to Canada. 

Opening the border to hive movement would be too disruptive on both sides so I doubt that will ever happen. but I wonder if there is a serious movement to get the border opened again to packages, or is there still too much opposition in Canada.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

loggermike said:


> but I wonder if there is a serious movement to get the border opened again to packages, or is there still too much opposition in Canada.


I say it must be a two way street, best queens I ever bought came from canada, but they no longer ship due to the cost and delays getting them down here.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Opposition to border opening diminishes with an increase of winter losses. I think the math folks call that linear if you were to graph it. Of course there are those who want it open at any cost and those who want it closed, no matter the reasons. The debate is always very emotional. Livelihoods are at stake. The possibility of missing out on $2.00/lb honey is a motivator for opening the border. Access to packages at the last minute would make the industry a little more stable. It is pretty har to persuade a young fellow/gal to put $1,000,000.00 or$2,000,000.00 into an outfit if after a tough winter he loses 50% of the hives. He would pretty well be finished after 1 season. Access to bees would make turnover of outfits easier. Do not think they would be cheaper. Do not think the would be like they used to be. They will for sure be better than what we currently have access to. 

I think it is best to raise your own but that is so hard to do and expensive. The season on the prairies is very short and intense making it hard to do. On the short term it is expensive, on the long run it pays dividends but it takes a lot of determination to pull it off. It still does not help on these freakishly long wnters and half the outfit is dead. Or what about one of my nuc customers whose bees did not have a normal pollen flow in the late summer , fall period? The end result dead bees next spring, it appears as if those colonies did not make enough young bees going into winter on account of lack of pollen. Fortunately for him he put the order in and we are making them up.

Jean-Marc


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Those same conditions led to the same problems south of the border this winter, leading to a very real shortage of good hives for almonds, and now a huge demand for queens and bees . So there really isn't any surplus of bees for sale. It always comes back to supply and demand. Opening the border would surely lead to increased prices for bees.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Hi, I am a newer beekeeper going into pollination rental next year , and since Nova Scotia has a border that won't even let in bees from within Canada it makes even more difficult to buy bees, If it wasn't for New Zealand and Australia being able to export packages to us in NS , most of the commercial Beekeeping would eventually cease if we had a bad year with losses from whatever killed them , we are not sustainable here . If the Nuc suppliers can't make their contracts for pollination due to winter losses then everyone that needs bees is SOL ! 
I have purchased some package bees this year from Australia @ 254.00 + 7.50 freight for a 4 LB pack with 2 Queens each. and that is expensive , but what can we do about it !? I can't get them at home hardware or walmart. 
So in a way I am thankful for being able to get the packages , but it still is way too expensive , specially when some of them don't make it ! 

So I am with opening the border to importing bees . It would really help out with the overpriced bees we have to get right now . plus the stock could be better too
I think SHB is in Canada anyways , I heard it from our bee health inspector at a course i am currently taking .

But since i am a newer beekeeper i guess i don't have much say in the matter, but i am a younger beekeeper and i think if the future of beekeeping is going to continue then someone needs to start listening to the younger generation .

Ben


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

"but I wonder if there is a serious movement to get the border opened again to packages, or is there still too much opposition in Canada. "

It is a very serious movement To open the border to US package Bees.3 Motions were passed to today at a General special meeting of Mantoba beekeepers association.First motion asked that no bees on comb were to be allowed in, second and third motions were essentially asking the CFIA to pursue the opening of the border to US packages and the setting up of protocols to do this.Livilihoods and businesses are at stake after this disastrous winter.

Alan Dick covers this whole topic very well at http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/topics.htm and this would apply to Manitoba, maybe on a little smaller count of colony numbers



Beekeeping Economics in Alberta Since Border Closure

Eastern Protectionism Costs Alberta Economy $25 Million Annually

Stunted Growth

The Decline of Beekeeping in Alberta

Beekeeping in Alberta, 1970 to 2002

The Truth About US Hive Numbers from 1989 to 2002. More

Comment Reminder Page

Letters to CFIA

Nothing in this world is guaranteed except maybe change...... I would think this is progress in the right directon




Geography has made us neighbors. History has made us friends. Economics has made us partners, and necessity has made us allies. Those whom God has so joined together, let no man put asunder.

John F. Kennedy


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

irwin harlton said:


> Geography has made us neighbors. History has made us friends. Economics has made us partners, and necessity has made us allies. Those whom God has so joined together, let no man put asunder.
> 
> John F. Kennedy


JFK was a very quotable man......


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

It is a very serious movement To open the border to US package Bees.3 Motions were passed to today at a General special meeting of Mantoba beekeepers association.First motion asked that no bees on comb were to be allowed in, second and third motions were essentially asking the CFIA to pursue the opening of the border to US packages and the setting up of protocols to do this.Livilihoods and businesses are at stake after this disastrous winter.

Probably to little to late for this season, but might help for next year. How bad of are the losses or is it to early to tell?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

producers just an hour north of me got over a foot of snow a few days back, . . . I hope the back of winter is broken this next week, as temps are to rise to normals again. Over the last few weeks, these cold nights have taken its toll, 
Winter loss reports are all over the map, 

this spring has brought many producers onto the same page, finally


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ben Little said:


> but i am a younger beekeeper and i think if the future of beekeeping is going to continue then someone needs to start listening to the younger generation .
> 
> Ben


cheers to that Ben, well said


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Very interesting subject. 

As someone who continues to get calls everyday (from especially the Midwest)where folks are still looking for packages in May 2013 the addition of an additional market is only going to bump up the price of bees and queens up.Fine by me. 

If the price of bee movement across the border includes "off comb only" and the policy is bilateral where its open for bee flow both ways it is my opinion that those who invest in bulk cages in the next few days will most likely to be the ones who will reap the greatest reward (in the coming years). Shaking bees across the middle of the prairies in September is my idea of beekeepers hell. 

If that's the new normal guess its time to buy Long Johns, a bigger trailer, and get prepared to meet the devil in Canada. 

Help me out all you Canuks.....I need to get prepared......... Is it true that the only legal colour for hive tools in Canada is Red or White?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Actually it is currently open for bees going south from here to the US of A, not on comb.

Jean-Marc


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

jean-marc said:


> Actually it is currently open for bees going south from here to the US of A, not on comb.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Hadn't heard of anyone doing so in 20 years? new one on me.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

You can buy queens and have them shipped in, but very few people are shipping in because of the costs to do so. I had some shipped down 10 years or so ago, the queens were held up at the border and it took 1 1/2 weeks for them to come in. they were not in very good shape at all. here is a copy of the restrictions.

Each shipment to the US has to be accompanied by a health certificate, the inspection to produce the certificate to be no more than 10 days before shipment. So a weekly shipment, as in our case, will necessitate weekly inspections of our yards, and each shipment has to be accompanied by invoices and export/health certificates. 

The package has to be sent through a recognized port of entry to enable each and every shipment to be inspected by an APHIS inspector, recently changed to Home Land Security, if the shipping method does not meet with his approval, then it can be destroyed at the shippers expense! 

The importer now has to apply, in plenty of time, for an import license, to the appropriate authority. Then the necessary parts of the legislation has to be initialed and returned to the authority for onward transmission to the port of entry, in time to meet the shipment. Stating all relevant information regarding who, where and when.

I will agree, each point is not insurmountable, but can you imagine the paper trail necessary to send a single queen to a beekeeper in Ohio? At the same time I very much doubt whether that same beekeeper would even make the effort! As I stated earlier, this legislation is extremely well crafted and is just another nail in the coffin of 'free trade'.

The legislation comes at a time when the border has been opened to allow US queens into Canada, but these restrictions are considerably tougher than the equivalent legislation out of Canada. It would appear the legislation is crafted on flawed data and needs reconsideration.

After a great deal of searching I have been informed the problem has been created by the insistence of the Australians that the border should also be opened to both them and New Zealand, this now allows the USDA to lump Canada in with them in forming the latest regulations. The main area of concern, the Canadians would be buying queens from Aus and NZ and exporting them to the US, from experience this is highly unlikely.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Actually I sold packages to a old gentlemen into the states 3 or 4 springs ago. He had planned to produce honey in canada then in the fall bring the skaken beess into the states for almond pollination next february. I sold him 2 packages as a trial run. It represented 2 years of phone calls 40-50 of them between us and I do not know how many he made with the authorities to keep it all above board. So I know it can be done, just a lot of hoops.

Just read over your post Mike and the hoops outlined seem accurate as to what happened between myself , the buyer and the government (both sides of it).

Pretty tough for a queen or a package but on an order of 400 packages, well that is another kettle of fish.

Jean-Marc


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## beekeeper032000 (Apr 25, 2009)

Ian, I sure wish our govermnent had some balls.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

problem is you guys vote in two different governments that act at the same time!


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Ian said:


> problem is you guys vote in two different governments that act at the same time!


Say what? Not sure what you mean. Am I the only ones lost here? :shhhh:


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## Markt (Feb 8, 2012)

Think he means you can have a democratic house and a republican senate or visa versa with the guys in the senate trying to hold stuff up for the purpose of making the guys in the house look bad...


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Markt said:


> Think he means you can have a democratic house and a republican senate or visa versa with the guys in the senate trying to hold stuff up for the purpose of making the guys in the house look bad...


Good thing about "our system" its stable and slow to change. Change happens. Slowly at that I agree. Not about to get in line for a parliamentarian system for anything in the world. The US constitution helps build stability.


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