# My First Nicot Queen Attempt



## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

This is my first Nicot queen rearing attempt. Six days ago on monday I put a young carni queen into the nicot queen laying cassette and left her alone in a queenless nuc for 3 days and then inspected them on thursday....I found that out of 110 cups in the cell cassette only one seemed to be only slightly wet so I transfered that cup to a prepared frame for cell cups...I also transfered 9 other cup that were in that general area to the frame out of optism, as I could see nothing in the cells AT ALL....Yesterday I looked into the nuc to see if there was any progress and found some of the cells had royal jelly in them and wax was being built on the cell cups and today (day 6 since queen intro into cassette) found that they had indeed been working the cups to make queens--to my astonishment--- the only way there could have been any life in those cells is that there were eggs in them when I moved them to the cell frame...Here are a couple of pics of progress so far, and tell me what you think....




I hope they all take, time will tell....
The nuc was an average nuc 5 over 5 with 3 frames of brood that I shook down into the bottom box and added the cell frame, the nuc is a "starter/finisher" I added another (substituted) half frame of honey so they wouldn't starve extra pollen is coming in the front door of the hive  Advise and comments welcome..

==McBee7==


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Good luck with your Queen rearing. I am wanting to try to raise a few as well. This sounds like a fairly straight forward process. I would like to hear how this turns out and if you would recommend this method.

Alex


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## Jlberry (Dec 11, 2014)

Did you leave her in the Nicot for 3 days? Or did you remove her prior to 3 days and inspect on the third day? I've just started my first Nicot yesterday and hoping to end with half dozen good queens. 



McBee7 said:


> young carni queen into the nicot queen laying cassette and left her alone in a queenless nuc for 3 days and then inspected them on thursday....I found that out of 110 cups in the cell cassette only one seemed to be only slightly wet
> ==McBee7==


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Normally you put the queen in the cage and leave it in her hive. I've never left the queen for more than 24 hours and tried to get her out in something closer to 14-18 so she wouldn't double lay.

If you put those cells in a cell builder last Thursday, by Sunday they should have been much bigger cells. Was there anything in the cells that they are drawing? They should be capped now.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Well here is what I've got, looks like 3, a small and 2 jumbos, at least in my eyes 




.

Yes I left the queen in the cassette for 3 days, and couldnt see any sign of anything in any of the cells, but next time ill use a magnifying glass. 
I think maybe my nuc is a little under staffed, maybe someone with more experiance can verify ??
The way I figure it, if I get 3 queens from this try I've allready paid for the system and from here on out it's free queens..LOL...Yes I know there is overhead associated with the starter/finisher....I am really excited about the outcome so far even if it's 30%

==McBee7==


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Was wondering BeeDeeTee, if in that amount of time does the queen lay up the whole cassette (110) cells and do you inspect each cell you move onto the frame or just pick some cups and move them? Or do you wait untill you can see larve, them move the cells to a frame??
Thanks.

==McBee7==


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Yes, she usually had the whole thing full. And for me, if I didn't get her out she would lay again in some. I was surprised that the bees didn't remove one of the larva. Maybe they would have at some point. The way I knew that there were double larva is by looking with a magnifying glass into each cell as I pulled it and put it on a cell bar. There have been times that I put the box into the hive the day before I added the queen and they started filling it with nectar. I put the queen in anyway and they would move most of the nectar, but there would still be some cells that she didn't lay in because they were full of nectar.


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## Jlberry (Dec 11, 2014)

Bruce, have you ever used a single colony and Cloake board with the Nicot? Advice appreciated if you have or have great reservation about doing it.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

They should make the queen includer with a candy tube so that if you want to you can load it so that the queen gets released after enough time to lay.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Jlberry said:


> Bruce, have you ever used a single colony and Cloake board with the Nicot? Advice appreciated if you have or have great reservation about doing it.


I have a note to myself in my queen rearing notes to not use the same hive as both the queen donor and the cell builder. I wrote this 5-6 years ago and didn't explain to myself why. That was the time frame that I was using the Jenter (I have been grafting for the past 3 years) and the Cloake Board. I know that one year my Cloake Board hive started cells in the bottom box. I had seen 18 capped queen cells above the excluder so on moving day I made up 18 mating nucs but when I went to get the frame of cells they had all been torn down. I also have a note to myself to check the cell bar before making up nucs.


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## Redneck (Oct 2, 2005)

I have used the Nicot. The instructions say to leave it in the doner hive for 24 hours for the bees to clean and polish cells. I found that the first time it is used leave it in doner hive for 48 hours for the bees to clean and polish cells. After the initial use you can get by with 24 hours. You then confine the queen in the Nicot for 24 hours, and then check to see if she has laid any eggs, if not leave her 24 more. As soon as you observe eggs, remove queen from Nicot. replace little plastic queen excluder. Put system back into the same spot for three more days for the eggs to hatch, then place the little cell cups back into the cell bar. You do not have to use a cloake board. Go into the bottom hive body and move most of open brood as well as some sealed brood to second hive body, leaving the queen in lower hive body under a queen excluder. I feed some pollen during this time. Place the cell bar in the center of second hive body. After cells are capped I put a couple of frames of foundation near cells to give the wax builders something to do, so they will not draw out comb around my queen cells. Using sharp nose pliers to remove the cells from the little Nicot makes it easier.


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## BeeOne (Jun 4, 2015)

No need for a magnifying glass. Just hold up to light any you can see eggs and larva very easily. After seeing eggs, you should release queen. You don't need her to fill every cell. If you can release her after 24 hours, all the eggs will have been laid on the same day. 
Please post a pic of your cell builder nuc with the cover off so we can see how strong you have built it. It needs to be stronger with more bees than most people think.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Here's a link to a different take on the nicot system and varies things a bit, judge for yourself which parts are applicable to your needs.
http://nicot.homestead.com/easynicot.html
And David, I think there is some kind of candy release built into the cassette. I havn't seen any info on it but there is a passage in it and a place to put candy. I didn't read about it in the literature that came with the unit but somewhere in my reading it was mentioned.
Thanks everyone for your input and I'm thinking about trying the system again this weekend with some mods to my timing and larve movement instead of blind egg moves.. 

==McBee7==


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Thanks for the great pic and comments BeeOne.
Here is a pic of when I removed the cell cup frame from my starter/finisher..



==McBee7==


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## Jlberry (Dec 11, 2014)

Great info and confirms what I have seen already. I am working with a double deep full of bees was separated by a Cloake board without the solid divider. Queen was in bottom box.
Brand new Nicot frame was placed in the hive (QE removed) for 24 hrs. After this 24 hr warm-up, the queen was inserted and covered. After another 24 hrs I checked for eggs and found none. At noon today I will recheck. If none today, I'll give it another day. The queen is moving freely and had lots of bees in with her, many were busy working in the cells, cleaning I assume.
When I find eggs I will put the queen back in the bottom box. Then I'll put the solid divider in to make the top box really queenless until the eggs are being fed (3 days) and remove the divider to make it queen-right again when I transfer the cups to the rearing frame.
Take-away for me was that I should have placed the frame in the hive for 2 days to get the smell of the hive even before introducing it to the bees.
I'm a first year beek and knew this would more likely be a trial run but if I come out with three healthy, successfully bred queens I'll be ecstatic! I'm only attempting 10 so if I get the 10, 30% may just work out.

Thanks for everyone's help! Keep it coming.

Jack


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## BeeOne (Jun 4, 2015)

When you first assemble your cell builder, you will think that you have plenty of bees. For them to start and finish around ten, you will need to add a lot more nurse bees, until it is literally overflowing.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Great info BeeOne and great looking cell builder (thats a LOT of bees). What kind of success rates have you had and how long have you been using the nicot system? Any additional info would be great, and by the way--Welcome to bee source, and thanks for the help already 

==McBee7==


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## Jlberry (Dec 11, 2014)

What is the consensus on reusing the brown cell cups? 
Can they be washed up with plain water and given back the bees? I have eggs in about 20-30 cups but nothing in the others. Would be a waste to toss them if the bees will reuse them.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Yesterday on June 7 sunday I was making up 3 nucs to accept the 3 queens that would soon emerg and I thought I would check the cell bar with the queen cells and discovered that the first one had emerged--Oh, Oh-- so I quickly finished the nucs and inserted the remaining cells.....As I left the queen in the cassette for 3 days, the queens could have quite a range of emergenc days----So we will see over the next 3 days if the 2 remaining queens hatch, or did the first queen destroy the others in the cells.....
I also put the breeder queen in the cassette (sunday) to try it again for just 24 hours-- today after work I bought a magnifying glass and checked the cassette. I only had 3 eggs in the cells but I was really pumped as now I know what to look for and what to move to the cell bar. I will try it again with a little more knowlege  I havn't yet decided what to do about the cell starter/finisher that now has a virgin queen in it.....I did put a second box on it with a QE between the first box and the second to keep heer out of the upper box where I put in a frame of brood and the nicot cassette that layed the 3 new eggs.....I think I need to remove the virgin queen from the starter/finisher and give her, her own nuc after she matesl..and then increase the population and carry on with the program----as unsophisticated as it is-- LOL--

==McBee7==


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## Jlberry (Dec 11, 2014)

I'm not clear on this but it sounds like you moved the 3 cups with eggs straight to the cell bar and a new box. I remember David Eyre recommends a 3 day wait for the bees to accept and start feeding the larvae. 
I jumped the gun on that step and am now waiting for Friday to find out if the bees are drawing down the cells. 
Pretty exciting to see your first queens emerge I'll bet!


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Yes, Its exciting considering this spring I already spent $250 on queens and am finding out I CAN do this queen rearing thing myself  
It seems like some peps transfer (maybe just me) the eggs to the grafting bar right away and some wait for the eggs to hatch in the cassette before placing them onto the bar, but thats what I did the first time (not being able to see anything in the cells ) so I thought I would try this again...I can see the eggs this time.... I transfered them to the box I added above the starter/finisher above a QE just because this is the most populus hive i have here in my house yard (at least on short notice) And I was in a rush to put the bar somewhere and this seemed to fit the bill and keep the bar away from the emerged queen (i also added a frome of brood above the QE with the grafting bar....Im not sure about the introduction time with the bar but I did have it in another hive for them to prep it and make it smell like bees or something otther than plastic and fresh cut pine...LOL....
Yes Jlberry this is quite an adventure 

==McBee7==


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I have found that if I add cups with eggs, the bees just eat the eggs. It takes just hatched out larva, under 24hrs old for it to work for me. It helps if when the queen is put in the cage, that the nicot unit is in with young open larva frames, and they hatch out the eggs into larva better if in with open larva as well. Being on a nectar flow at the time is almost a must also.


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## Jlberry (Dec 11, 2014)

Nicot w/Cloake board: Checked for drawn cells today (Weds), no joy. 10 cups with eggs were loaded in the queen cell frame on Sunday. I learned a lot on this shake-down cruse. What worked: I did get the whole kit working, eggs laid, queen still living! The excluder did its job, the divider seemed to do it's job though I didn't get the timing just right - inserting too late and pulling it too quickly I think. The bees seemed to go along with the whole efffort, piling in the fixture with the queen, covering the frame, etc. 

Some things I did that will likely do differently:
I used a Cloake board and opted not to reverse the bottom box. I choose not to do that because of the mood of the bees and fear of dropping a full box or knocking over the blocks the hive stands on. Working alone, first time, etc.
Before the next attempt I will modify a screened bottom board with openings on both ends and use a wooden entrance excluder to block the appropriate entrance as I move through the steps. I may make that a modification to all my bottom boards if I like the results. Why pick up heavy brood boxes, disturb the bees, risk other problems when all you have to do is orient two sticks?
I will start "curing" the fixture sooner if it's a new Nicot. One day is probably fine if the Nicot is propolized and has the bee smell! However, moving to a new hive & queen might warrant an extra day???
I will wait until the bees are feeding larvae before I move the cups. I think this was my biggest mistake, I moved ten cups with eggs to the cell frame before proof the bees had accepted the eggs. David Eyre warned of this on his video and I just failed to remember it's importance.

I plan to wait a couple of weeks and give it another shot. I'm not concerned about the time of year or whether we are in a flow at the time. I want to get through the process and work out a good plan that I can repeat. As long as I get queen cells drawn and queens out of their cells I'll be happy. If they mate successfully and I get a few good nucs I'll be blessed.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

So if I have this correct...

Put Nicot in without Queen for bees to polish
Add Queen for 24 hours or 24 hours of laying if a slow starter.
Remove Queen from Nicot
Leave Nicot in the original Queen right hive for 3 days after releasing the Queen.
Then remove Nicot from donor Queen hive and place cups on Nicot bar without roller cages
Place bar with Nicot cups in cell starter/finisher with Queen excluder and closed Cloake board or just an inserted board.
Once cells are capped remove the Cloak board or plain board insert and leave Queen excluder in place. Put on rollers if so desired.
Wait 9-10 days and place cells in mating Nucs.

Please advise if I have this correct.


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## Jlberry (Dec 11, 2014)

That's pretty close. If you are using a Cloake board you will need to manipulate the entrances. See Sue Cobey's paper on this. She doesn't use Nicot but you can learn a lot from her work to adapt to the Nicot. Google "Cloake Board Method of Queen Rearing and Banking by Cobey" for a copy. 
There is also a PowerPoint presentation on "Queen Rearing with a Nicot and Cloake Board" on the web somewhere. Don't remember the author but it's worth a look. 
Finally, Gillard has a book on the Nicot system that I read. It's a bit philosophical in front but finally gets down to the nuts & bolts of the Nicot system. Again, you'll have to work out the Cloake board part using Colby's information if you like.

For reversing the hive entrances my next endeavor will use a screen bottom board with both ends open. I will use a solid stick instead of an entrance reducer to seal which ever entrance is appropriate for the Nicot step I am in.


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## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

McBee7, great job. sorry only 3 took. check out my post, i have a few tips there, and i show how i do grafting, it seems less work than the nicot system. 
i used it before, once, and gave it to my dad, who in turn thru it out. i have a friend that uses it, and he gets 100% take on his cells. he feeds, prepares strong cell builders, and uses the protectors after they cap the cells. he introduces the cells as eggs in the starter. 24-48 h after she laid the little cage he places them in the builder and then feeds. 

see how they build comb on your cell, if you put a cell protector over it they will not do that. i do think it's an easy system for the beginner, that only needs e few queens a year. even if it did not worked for me, i know people that use it with success. keep trying different ways of working the system, i know it took my friend 3 years to become good at using it, but now he is actually selling queens using this system...he is to old to graft, he can't see an elephant in front of him without glasses  

take care and thank you for sharing your experience


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

WBVC said:


> So if I have this correct...
> ...Once cells are capped remove the Cloak board or plain board insert and leave Queen excluder in place. Put on rollers if so desired.
> ...Please advise if I have this correct.


I have left the Cloake Board insert in for 24 hours, not until they are capped. It would work but not as a queen right finisher.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

The Cloake board I have isn't like a Snelgrove board. My Cloake only has a Queen excluder and a plate to close off completely between the two boxes.
Is there something I am missing.



Jlberry said:


> That's pretty close. If you are using a Cloake board you will need to manipulate the entrances. See Sue Cobey's paper on this. She doesn't use Nicot but you can learn a lot from her work to adapt to the Nicot. Google "Cloake Board Method of Queen Rearing and Banking by Cobey" for a copy.
> There is also a PowerPoint presentation on "Queen Rearing with a Nicot and Cloake Board" on the web somewhere. Don't remember the author but it's worth a look.
> Finally, Gillard has a book on the Nicot system that I read. It's a bit philosophical in front but finally gets down to the nuts & bolts of the Nicot system. Again, you'll have to work out the Cloake board part using Colby's information if you like.
> 
> For reversing the hive entrances my next endeavor will use a screen bottom board with both ends open. I will use a solid stick instead of an entrance reducer to seal which ever entrance is appropriate for the Nicot step I am in.


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## Jlberry (Dec 11, 2014)

I could have written more clearly. But I'm not sure what you're asking. My Cloake board sounds just like yours. 
Are you referring to my comment about reversing entrances? That's done on the bottom board, making the Cloake the way back into the hive.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

6 days ago I hurriedly placed 2 cells in nucs to avoid an already emerged virgin in my starter/finisher, and here's what I found when I checked the nucs today.


Both sides were like this.
and this is the second nuc, only one side was like this.



But there was a Q-cell that I pinched in the center where the comb is wavy..?? Any thoughts on that?
I didn't look in the S/F to check on that queen as it would have taken a while..Also this week I received 4 caucacian queens in the mail and had to use some of my resources for those nucs, but in a couple of weeks I'm hoping to raise some nicot queens from them....
I was really excited to find this  

==McBee7==


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Sorry but I must correct myself 
The brood seen in the above pics cannot be from my queens.
6 days is not enough time for a queen to emerge, get mated, lay viable eggs, hatch in 3 days, and be a larve for 5 more days THEN be capped .....
These are the nucs that I put the q-cells in, but I have several nucs in a row (7) that have various stages of queens in them, The only explanation I can give is that there was a queen in the nucs when I introduced the cells or there was virgin drift from another hive, or possibly a queen had hatched from the brood that I had waiting for the cell---SORRY

==McBee7==


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