# beekeeper pay scale?



## csalt09

I'm considering trying to find a commercial beekeeping job to see how i handle all the work involved based on this forums suggestions. What kind of pay do begginers make. Just wondering what ill need to do to make it happen. I dont mind working 2 jobs to pay the bills if need be. I've been keeping 3 to 4 hives for about 5 years now if it matters.


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## drlonzo

Considering that you've got some background with keeping bees, it could be looked at as good, or bad. Having knowledge of a subject in most cases is good, however when it comes to commercial beekeeping things tend to be diff than backyard beekeeping. So there lies the "well this is the way i do it/did it". Which can become a bad thing. So you'd have to have a personality that was NOT like that for most commercial guys to want to hire. They would start you at the bottom in most cases, meaning lots of lifting. So I'd say min. wage should be expected in most cases.


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## sqkcrk

$10.00/hr to start, paid at the end of the week.


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## Ian

Experienced Beekeepers $15, starting wages $12. 
I pay a bit higher here for local workers.


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## jim lyon

I always pay well over minimum wage for part time help for the summer extracting season. Of course with higher pay comes the expectation of greater productivity. It is getting increasingly rare for me to be able to find summer help willing to give the effort even when the pay is attractive. A sign of the times I guess. A full time position, I would think, would be salaried with agreements about general work hours, time off, insurance and lots of other stipulations. Kind of hard to do that on the clock at an hourly wage.


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## AstroZomBEE

$9/hour Without drivers license
$10/hour with Drivers License
$12/ hour with CDL

Having a cdl would probably increase your chances of peaking the commercial beekeepers interest.

And yes be able to always do it the way your boss says to do it, saying that's not how I do it and not following directions, will lead to a fast trip out the door.

I've had a lot of people think that me dismissing their idea was an insult, in reality, we have tried just about everything imaginable and probably have found one of the best ways to get just about everything in the beekeeping industry done. I always tell them learn my way first, if you still think your idea is worthy bring it to my attention and I will investigate, but by no means assume that you will have a revolutionary idea right out of the starting gate.

Aaron


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## csalt09

Well, great replies. I could probably live with that for a year. My way is slow and clumbsy definitely not like I see the pros doing it, they make it look smooth with little effort. I think if I could get enough experience to work hives like that I could see enjoying getting into a rythem and be happy doing it all day. Although the heat here in florida can take its toll.


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## BMAC

AstroZomBEE said:


> but by no means assume that you will have a revolutionary idea right out of the starting gate.
> 
> Aaron


Amen to that!

Class A CDL, B is fine but I never go anywhere that requires a CDL without my trailer attached so someone having a B is well not helping me move my trucks, and trailers.


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## BMAC

csalt09 said:


> Although the heat here in florida can take its toll.


 Heat in Ga is no joke either. Why do you think we move north this time of year. There should be plenty of large beekeepers in your area needing help too.


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## Michael Palmer

Ian said:


> Experienced Beekeepers $15, starting wages $12.


I pay the same.


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## Heintz88

Umm people pay more than 10/hr??? I need a raise sigh .


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## Barry Digman

I think people have this working-for-a-commercial-beekeeper thing backwards. 

If you enroll at a university in the hope of studying under the best minds in a particular field you don't ask what the pay is, you ask what the tuition is.


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## sqkcrk

Oh, yeah, that's right, Barry. I meant to write that I charge $10.00/hr.


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## Ian

Barry Digman said:


> I think people have this working-for-a-commercial-beekeeper thing backwards.


Ya and my guys work. I dont teach beekeeping on my farm, I have them get my work done. If they are attentive enough to know whats going on, thats a plus, but Im not teaching my guys to manage bees...


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## The Honey Householder

I hired a foreman two years ago, and salary is based on skills like: Fit Ron"s truck, forklift, weld up new equipment, build new building for hired hands, and don't forget put up with me. All for $32K a year, and he runs 200 of his own hives from extra equipment from the shop and use of the shop too. Ya, might be paying to much reading this thread. Now that I have a new hired hand shack, might need to find cheaper help.:scratch:


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## jim lyon

Heintz88 said:


> Umm people pay more than 10/hr??? I need a raise sigh .


.....and I'm thinking, there are people that pay less than $10 an hour?


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## CLICKBANGBANG

So what is the perfect commercial beekeeper resume look like, and what is the far market value for the work?


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## sqkcrk

I sent resumes out 25 years ago. They all got circular filed.


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## Ian

CLICKBANGBANG said:


> So what is the perfect commercial beekeeper resume look like,


ever seen Dr. Claw's hench men? Perfect commercial beekeeper worker!

"ahh yes boss!!"


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## Oldtimer

Wow I'm pretty surprised how low you guys pay I thought the US was the land of plenty!

Here the minimum wage allowed by law to be paid to an adult for any job, equates to US$12.57 per hour. That's what a totally unskilled beginner would get, someone with a year or so experience and willingness to work would get more possibly 30% more.


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## BMAC

jim lyon said:


> .....and I'm thinking, there are people that pay less than $10 an hour?


Yeah. I only pay box haulers minimum wage. I pay those who actually think on their own and give substantial contributions without holding their hands anywhere from 10 to 15 an hour.

Of course this is said with the disclaimer, I only need occassional helpers.


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## BMAC

Oldtimer said:


> Wow I'm pretty surprised how low you guys pay I thought the US was the land of plenty!
> 
> Here the minimum wage allowed by law to be paid to an adult for any job, equates to US$12.57 per hour. That's what a totally unskilled beginner would get, someone with a year or so experience and willingness to work would get more possibly 30% more.


Minimum wage is different in our country. US is the land of plenty. Plenty of costs!


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## JohnK and Sheri

Families have costs too, but I'll slap my own hand, minimum wage discussions are for tailgator. Over the past few years we have paid between $12 for starting inexperienced help to $18 for management level help.
Sheri


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## sqkcrk

Oldtimer said:


> Wow I'm pretty surprised how low you guys pay I thought the US was the land of plenty!
> 
> Here the minimum wage allowed by law to be paid to an adult for any job, equates to US$12.57 per hour. That's what a totally unskilled beginner would get, someone with a year or so experience and willingness to work would get more possibly 30% more.


You haven't heard? There is a fight to get the Federal Minimum Wage up to $10.10. I'm not sure what minimum wage is right now, somewhere around $7.35 or there abouts. And Agricultural Minimum Wage is less than that, if I recall correctly what I have heard.


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## sqkcrk

BMAC said:


> Yeah. I only pay box haulers minimum wage.


Which is how much?


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## Barry Digman

Here's the minimum wage by state:

http://money.cnn.com/interactive/pf/state-minimum-wage/

Some localities have higher minimums.


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## BMAC

JohnK and Sheri said:


> Families have costs too, but I'll slap my own hand, minimum wage discussions are for tailgator. Sheri


It only counts if you delete your own entry for posting something that belongs in tailgater.:lookout:


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## BMAC

sqkcrk said:


> Which is how much?


$8.00 in NY 
$7.25 in Ga

Should box haulers get paid more than minimum wage?


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## LeonardS

I'm sure not going to get a beekeeping job when I retire. My free time is worth way more than $10 per hour. 

I am surprised you can find any help for the wages posted, but more power to you, if you can.


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## BMAC

Are most employees of beekeepers actually beekeeping or is it like the manager of a McDonald's with employees working? Ian makes an excellent point. We don't pay them to be beekeepers but rather to do specific tasks like putting pickles on a burger or cooking french fries.


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## tommyt

Common labor 
In the field of beekeeping :thumbsup:


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## jim lyon

BMAC said:


> Are most employees of beekeepers actually beekeeping or is it like the manager of a McDonald's with employees working? Ian makes an excellent point. We don't pay them to be beekeepers but rather to do specific tasks like putting pickles on a burger or cooking french fries.


Exactly. Pretty much everything we do is repetitive work that can can be taught in a matter of hours......or even minutes. A commercial beekeeper is not looking for beekeeping expertise as much as they are looking for a good work ethic, a pleasing personality and the willingness to be a team player. I love the guy that steps up and doesn't step back when there is a hard job to do or doesn't flinch at the prospect of finishing a job that might last a bit beyond a normal quitting time. You need a team player not a bee expert.


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## Barry Digman

jim lyon said:


> Exactly. Pretty much everything we do is repetitive work that can can be taught in a matter of hours......or even minutes.


Well now I'm a little confused. (Not a first...)

If it's been said once on here it's been said a thousand times, "If you want to become a commercial beekeeper you need to go work for one in order to learn the business...". 

That seems at odds with the idea that everything can be taught in a few hours.


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## sqkcrk

Now Barry, you must know that there is a difference between the work and the business. What working for a commercial beekeeper teaches one is that it's work. Work which can be demanding and unending. You can't just walk away from the job because it got dark or rain is pouring down. Some things have to be learned by doing and can't be taught.


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## Barry Digman

I think we're talking about two different things in the same thread Mark. (I know that's never happened before  )

One is the person who wants to learn the commercial beekeeping business by first working for a going concern.

The other is the experienced beekeeper who wants only a good employee and is not interested in mentoring or training someone who will leave and go into business for themselves. 

Clearly those two goals aren't going to be satisfied by those two folks trying to work together.

Perhaps the advice given to young folks who wants to learn commercial beekeeping should be amended to include the caution to work for a commercial beekeeper who is able and willing to mentor them while they're working for him or her.


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## jim lyon

Barry Digman said:


> I think we're talking about two different things in the same thread Mark. (I know that's never happened before  )
> 
> One is the person who wants to learn the commercial beekeeping business by first working for a going concern.
> 
> The other is the experienced beekeeper who wants only a good employee and is not interested in mentoring or training someone who will leave and go into business for themselves.
> 
> Clearly those two goals aren't going to be satisfied by those two folks trying to work together.
> 
> Perhaps the advice given to young folks who wants to learn commercial beekeeping should be amended to include the caution to work for a commercial beekeeper who is able and willing to mentor them while they're working for him or her.


.....but Barry you learn so much over the course of a year. You get mentored on a myriad of activities through the season. You get to see what happens in each season and learn to understand why. You learn not to dawdle or fret over what happens in a single hive, but instead to be efficient with your time in a productive manner so that the larger enterprise benefits. We may be repetitive in what we do for a couple of weeks but it may be followed by the repetition of a much different activity next week. Over the course of a full season of seeing it in action ( and seeing the tangible results) a clearer understanding of commercial beekeeping emerges.


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## sqkcrk

Barry Digman said:


> One is the person who wants to learn the commercial beekeeping business by first working for a going concern.
> 
> The other is the experienced beekeeper who wants only a good employee and is not interested in mentoring or training someone who will leave and go into business for themselves.
> 
> Clearly those two goals aren't going to be satisfied by those two folks trying to work together.


Someone interested, truly interested, should, if possible, work a season or two or a whole year if they can to see how much work it is and to learn a thing or two that they might not learn as well trying to figure everything out on their own. That's what one will learn, how much work it is, and whether they have what it takes to do the work.

Then they have to figure out whether they can handle the business.

I wouldn't want to work for someone who would not do some mentoring, I never have. Most beekeepers I know and have worked with/for are willing to explain the job and, when appropriate and there is time, the right time, why. It is not all just simply throw these supers on those hives. Some times it is, some times that's the job. But I sure don't want someone throwing supers on a dead or dying hive.

I agree w/ your last paragraph.


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## Keith Jarrett

jim lyon said:


> It is getting increasingly rare for me to be able to find summer help willing to give the effort even when the pay is attractive. A sign of the times I guess. .


Ha.... summer winter spring fall, doesn't seem to matter. The work ethic has gone right down the *%^#[email protected] hole.


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## chillardbee

IMO, I don't think a commercial operation is the place to learn beekeeping 101. bringing a healthy knowledge of bee behavior, colony management, ect will help a fella understand what and why the boss is doing what does or more likely getting you to do what he wants...with out explaination. Beekeeping is already a tiring job let alone if you have to be a teacher as well, that woul make me grumpy, tired and grumpy.


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## Barry Digman

Yeah, Chillardbee, I would agree that it's not a beginner class we're talking about. The OP indicated he had 5 years experience with 3-4 hives.


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## sqkcrk

Barry Digman said:


> The OP indicated he had 5 years experience with 3-4 hives.


But will he show up? On time? Can he work? And show up the next day? Not call in sick? Not show up because he got picked up driving drunk? Or has to stay home w/ the kids because his Mother-in-law is in the hospital? Or was it his Wife?

Showing up is half the job. Those who know what I mean, know what I mean. If ya don't, no amount of explainin' will make a difference.


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## BMAC

Barry Digman said:


> Yeah, Chillardbee, I would agree that it's not a beginner class we're talking about. The OP indicated he had 5 years experience with 3-4 hives.


I know a guy with 4 colonies and 10 years experience with those 4 hives that can still use a beginner beekeeping class.


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## mgolden

Like an old boss of mine used to say - "Is that 20 years experience or 1 year experience 20 times."


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## Michael Bush

>Showing up is half the job.

I've been a foreman several times in the construction business. I was always baffled by the excuses. We all have a flat tire or a dead battery once in a while. Frankly I don't care what your reasons are, if you are rarely late, I don't care why and you are still valuable. If you are always late, I don't care why. Reality is I need the guy who is rarely late, not the guy who is always late but has an excuse... excuses don't help me get the work done... 

I'm also surprised by the guy who works a day or two when the work is brutal because of the heat, the work etc. and then doesn't ever come back, but also doesn't bother to collect the pay they have coming... I guess they are too ashamed of not coming back?


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## Ian

Michael Bush said:


> >Showing up is half the job.
> 
> Frankly I don't care what your reasons are, if you are rarely late, I don't care why and you are still valuable. If you are always late, I don't care why. Reality is I need the guy who is rarely late, not the guy who is always late but has an excuse... excuses don't help me get the work done...


good comment


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## Haraga

My neighbor has trucks that haul crude oil. His base pay is 30$ an hour plus travel pay, holiday pay etc etc. they start at 7 am 365 days a year. One of the drivers there has grossed over 100k for the last three years. He is not at the top of the pay scale. The owner shows up at the shop no later than 6:40 am 365 days a year. There are always drivers that beat him there. It comes down to this, if you pay an employee enough money, they will never be late and they will never steal from you. If you starve them they will cheat you every time.


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## clyderoad

good and cheap won't be fast
cheap and fast won't be good
good and fast won't be cheap

good, cheap, fast: pick only two.
Applies to most everything, including workers.


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## Oldtimer

Barry Digman said:


> Yeah, Chillardbee, I would agree that it's not a beginner class we're talking about. The OP indicated he had 5 years experience with 3-4 hives.


I may be an example of that. Before I got a job with a commercial beekeeper I was a bee obsessed hobbyist for 3 years building up to around a dozen hives. All my spare time was spent doing bees, or thinking about them. I thought I was pretty smart & new it all, I was a teenager & wanted to be a commercial beekeeper.

When I started the commercial job it was a rude surprise. I discovered my boss & co workers could accomplish in minutes, or less, what may have taken me an hour when I had a few hives, and they would do it better. I also had to relearn a lot of things, and realised within a few days that if I had just continued to build my own operation to a commercial size I would never, probably in my life, learned what I was learning working with pros.

Got lucky though, the beekeeper I happened to get a job with was a superb beekeeper and also saw it as his mission to make all his workers superb beekeepers he very much shared his knowledge. After I left him & worked for others I discovered not all beekeepers were like that.


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## Michael Palmer

Keith Jarrett said:


> Ha.... summer winter spring fall, doesn't seem to matter. The work ethic has gone right down the *%^#[email protected] hole.


Flottum just told me there are 250 want adds for bee help in the Alberta Bee Journal.


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## Ian

Michael Palmer said:


> Flottum just told me there are 250 want adds for bee help in the Alberta Bee Journal.


Here come the foreign workers! Nobody in Canada want to work bees for $11.50 per hour.


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## Haraga

Ian, the Alberta beekeepers don't have any intentions in hiring non foreign workers.


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## Adrian Quiney WI

You pay peanuts and you get monkeys. Who would be surprised that there are labor troubles if the pay is low, the hours long, and the boss is grumpy? It seems to me that there are different levels of employee. Ron Householder sounds like he has a "one-in-a-million" guy with all the skills and motivation it takes to become an independent commercial beekeeper.
I am curious as to the motivation of the OP. Does he want to work for a commercial beekeeper, or does he ultimately want to be a commercial beekeeper? They are different things. What I think is overlooked, or taken for granted, in the work of the commercial beekeeper is mechanical ability. I can raise, and overwinter bees, but I can't fix anything. 
As the work of the commercial beekeeper involves doing things on a large scale the ability to keep mechanical things going cheaply becomes more important. That means doing it yourself.
I regularly read Allen Dick's diary because as a retired commercial beekeeper every now and then he drops wisdom that it would take me years to get at my current level of activity. The ability of this guy to fix anything emasculates me on a weekly basis.
I think an inherent mechanical ability is a neccessity for a commercial beekeeper. Hats off to you guys.


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## Ian

Haraga said:


> Ian, the Alberta beekeepers don't have any intentions in hiring non foreign workers.


The quality of workers that comes in makes it hard to want to search for local guys. 
I have been able to stack my work force with local school kids and neighbours. Most of my staff is excellent.


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## sqkcrk

Haraga said:


> Ian, the Alberta beekeepers don't have any intentions in hiring non foreign workers.


Is that Canadian for "Ian, the Alberta beekeepers don't have any intentions in hiring [domestic] workers."? In other words, you have no intentions to hire Canadians?


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## Haraga

No. It's a polite way of saying that they have no intentions of hiring a white man.


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## BMAC

Haraga said:


> My neighbor has trucks that haul crude oil. His base pay is 30$ an hour plus travel pay, holiday pay etc etc. they start at 7 am 365 days a year. One of the drivers there has grossed over 100k for the last three years. He is not at the top of the pay scale. The owner shows up at the shop no later than 6:40 am 365 days a year. There are always drivers that beat him there. It comes down to this, if you pay an employee enough money, they will never be late and they will never steal from you. If you starve them they will cheat you every time.


That's a pretty good opinion. I don't really find it true as I know people who held $38.00 an hour job and still robbed the employer. It sounds plausible, just not factual.


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## Haraga

I guess it all depends on where you are from.


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## Oldtimer

Both are true. According to an article I read recently around a third of fraud against the employer was motivated by some perceived injustice and the person felt entitled to some recompense. That still leaves the other two thirds which were just because the person was dishonest regardless.


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## sqkcrk

Haraga said:


> No. It's a polite way of saying that they have no intentions of hiring a white man.


So, "non foreign" is Canadian code talk for White Canadians? Interesting.


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## sqkcrk

BMAC said:


> That's a pretty good opinion. I don't really find it true as I know people who held $38.00 an hour job and still robbed the employer. It sounds plausible, just not factual.


Believe it or not, money is a poor motivator. Money won't make an unhappy employee happy, satisfied in their work.


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## Haraga

Go ahead and cut your employees pay in half and you will find out what a good motivator it was.


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## clyderoad

BMAC said:


> That's a pretty good opinion. I don't really find it true as I know people who held $38.00 an hour job and still robbed the employer. It sounds plausible, just not factual.


the persons character is an issue here as well. Love of Money + a bad character= thief


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## clyderoad

sqkcrk said:


> Believe it or not, money is a poor motivator. Money won't make an unhappy employee happy, satisfied in their work.


Money is a huge factor in motivating many (most?) people, but not the only factor.


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## Barry

Ian said:


> Here come the foreign workers! Nobody in Canada want to work bees for $11.50 per hour.


The average pay for a factory worker is $15.00. He/she won't get stung, works an 8 hour day, doesn't usually break a sweat.
Yes, money motivates. I lasted 3 years working for other people, right after high school, before going on my own. The big motivation for me was being able to move beyond being the laborer and advancing myself into all aspects of the business. The financial reward didn't come till years down the road.


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## BMAC

Haraga said:


> Go ahead and cut your employees pay in half and you will find out what a good motivator it was.


I have paid for a full days labor as little as 2 gallons of honey and the employee was enthusiastic to get it and handed back one gallon stating 1 gallon is more than enough pay for the day of pulling deeps full of honey all day long. Though I agree pay is a motivator in this day and time in this country you have alot of people out of work, so the buck goes further. 

Is it Ok to have a felon working for you? Now I know I am treading on tailgater waters here but shouldn't we give ex-cons a second chance? how many factories will hire ex-cons. Many of them become OTR drivers or used car salemans. Don't we as a society owe it to them to give them a second chance? Ok no I really don't feel we owe them anything. However it is a great resource for in-expensive labor. Do you have to keep an eye on them? Yep! Treat them better than the prison system did and let them go when they fall into their old tactics.


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## Michael Bush

I realize the original question is from the point of view of the employee... but from the point of view of someone who has been a foreman, I love to get a chance to see what someone is worth and then pay them what they are worth. Here we can call the Nebraska Job Service and they send some temporary people out at minimum wage. Most are not worth much and don't last a day (usually their choice when they find out they are actually expected to work) but once in a while you get a gem. Those you want to hire and pay well enough to keep them. A lazy man is LESS than worthless. A hard worker and a smart worker are difficult enough to find you should try to hang on to them. Someone who not only works hard but anticipates the next move and is ready for it and can get in a rhythm where they are productive is what you want to find.

You can argue that pay isn't the only motivator, and that is somewhat true, but there is only one reason most people show up to work and that is pay. Yes, we all like to feel like we are accomplishing something and we like to feel appreciated and productive and competent, but we only show up so we can feed the family and pay the rent, otherwise we would be doing something for ourselves.


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## Ian

Haraga said:


> Go ahead and cut your employees pay in half and you will find out what a good motivator it was.


Haraga, these temporary foreign workers are extremely good workers. Manitoba uses a lot of these workers to fill vacancy and without them the jobs would go unfilled... Mostly because the oil fields are pulling our work force away. There has to be workers brought in to fill $11-15 per hour jobs otherwise Canada cant complete with US and other foreign businesses. A good example of this is here in the meat cutting industry.

Yes there are some that bend the rules in hiring and dont look as hard for domestic help. But if that domestic worker TRIES hard enough, he/she will get that job

I have structured my business to work around hiring local school kids and university kids. Works very well for me.


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## sqkcrk

Haraga said:


> Go ahead and cut your employees pay in half and you will find out what a good motivator it was.


No, give them a $5.00 or $10.00 per hour raise and you will see what I mean. See if you get an equivalent bump in production.

If money is such a good motivator, why, when you pay someone at the end of the day, rather than at the end of the week, do so many not show up the next day? If you want to motivate someone w/ money hold on to it until you don't need them.


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## Barry Digman

Back to the employee point of view, and that of an employee who is looking for the opportunity to learn about the commercial side of beekeeping and whether he might choose to eventually go into business for himself...

Let's assume that the person has a few years of backyard beekeeping and is comfortable around the bees. Also assume that the person is physically able to do the job and has a modicum of skill when it comes to keeping equipment operational. Overall the person is an above average employee. 

BUT, his motivation is not the money, but the experience of finding out the business end of beekeeping along with the peculiarities of commercial beekeeping and whether he's up to it. Let's also assume that he's been a Beesource member for several years and is familiar with names like Bush, Palmer, Oliver, Jarrett, Lyon, Berninghausen, Lauri, Sheri, etc. and may well have paid money to hear them speak or read their articles. 

Let's also assume that the beekeeper is willing to treat the person as a student as well as a hired laborer. 

I contend that the position then becomes more than that of a laborer and that it changes the wage. I may have a totally different take on what the motivation and benefits to the person looking for that position are, but I can't help but think that if I were a young person who was serious about becoming a commercial beek that I'd willingly *pay* for the opportunity to spend a season or two working under the direction of certain beekeepers.


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## sqkcrk

That may well be so Barry, we all pay for our education one way or another. But, were I employing people to work bees w/ me I would want to have a person such as one you describe on my payroll just to cover my butt. I imagine. What about you Jim Lyon or Keith Jarret or Michael Palmer? Michael has interns, so maybe he does things differently regarding them. How does interning work Michael?


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## BMAC

why not Barry. Isn't that just what the fat beeman does in Ga?


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## clyderoad

sqkcrk said:


> No, give them a $5.00 or $10.00 per hour raise and you will see what I mean. See if you get an equivalent bump in production.
> 
> If money is such a good motivator, why, when you pay someone at the end of the day, rather than at the end of the week, do so many not show up the next day? If you want to motivate someone w/ money hold on to it until you don't need them.


A lack of character or more pay elsewhere, or just not liking the work, or booze, etc. Is why they don't show up. The list goes on. But,
You hire for the day, they work for the day, you pay for the day's work. Simple as that. Want them longer term, hire them longer term.
To coerce someone by holding onto their money, that they worked for and are entitled to receive, will get you in trouble around here every time, guaranteed.


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## sqkcrk

If someone is not happy in their work, money won't fix that. It may keep them showing up, but is that the kind of worker you want? That said, if you pay well you just might attract the kind of person you want.


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## Ian

sqkcrk said:


> If someone is not happy in their work, money won't fix that. It may keep them showing up, but is that the kind of worker you want? That said, if you pay well you just might attract the kind of person you want.


What $$$ point is that in your op sqkcrk. My $$$ point so far is $12 starting, $15 experienced. I have not heard of any wages paid higher than that round here.


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## MNbees

experienced is a broad term. If you expect someone to really know what they are doing you had better pay them a lot more than 15.
As Jim said earlier salary is the only way to go if you really need help.
Its like a team and you need good players if you want to win. We have a good team and they get payed well.
As for extracting and bottling help its $12-$14.


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## sqkcrk

One guy that I work for from time to time pays $100.00 per day and buys breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Unless we get done early and he leaves for home. That could come to $10.00/hr or $12.50/hr, plus meals, depending on the day. I enjoy working for him and he w/ me in his hives. Mutually agreeable. But that isn't a regular job.

Another guy I have worked for pays $15.00/hr, by check, does all the IRS stuff too.

These are two guys I work w/ when I have the time to enjoy working w/ someone else other than myself.


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## BMAC

So as employers in Apiary Industries what do we expect from our employees? 

I certainly don't expect but do welcome hobbyist and sideline beekeepers though this comes with the stipulation of "do it my way". These folks generally are paid better than a box hauler/puller as long as they prove themselves to have knowlede of beekeeping and can think for themselves with little guidance from me. I like to pay them over $500.00 a day (daily salary as we tend to get up at 630 am and work well past midnight) so lets call it 16 hour days, their average hourly pay will be there of $35.00 an hour, but only need them 3 weeks out of the year. The rest of the time all I need is the box hauler/puller. Personally I think $10.00 an hour of more than adequate for the typical grunt laborer.


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## sqkcrk

$500.00/day? Shoot. If I had known that when you were passing through SC I would have been tempted to go to GA w/ you. Do you carry extra firearms for your help?  If the boss is armed shouldn't the rest of the crew be armed too?


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## Verick369

You guys talk about this pay like it is good money. Here in California rent is $1400 a month for a decent apartment. Only people you can get for under $15 an hour are guys who are still living with mom and dad. Pay people better and suddenly they can get their own place, and have bills that need paying. Suddenly you get them in every day and working hard, as opposed to working for extra spending money because they can't afford any big purchases at $10-12. And all this is ignoring the fact that a lot of these people can get a $10-12 job elsewhere that pays normal overtime pay, and let's them work a normal 40 hour week. If you pay the minimum for workers you are going to get tired, frustrated, bottom of the barrel kind of guys.


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## sqkcrk

So what do you pay the bee workers that you employ?


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## Verick369

I'm still small scale. What I have seen is from experience as an employee. I give my volunteers 1/10th my gross for overall labor and half my pay for removals ($15-50 depending on the job).


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## Haraga

sqkcrk said:


> So what do you pay the bee workers that you employ?


I pay 20$ per hour cash for day labor. I wouldn't expect a decsent worker to show up for less.


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## Ian

Mine do. I can pay them $30 per hour and get the same work, but then I cut back on my workers because I cant afford the help, and cut back on my business because I cant get my work done... Got to keep the pay point where you find good work and keep the business profitable and growing.
General labour is general labour, experienced labour is experienced labour. Both different pay grades, both contribute differently in the business.


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## BMAC

Verick369 said:


> You guys talk about this pay like it is good money. Here in California rent is $1400 a month for a decent apartment. Only people you can get for under $15 an hour are guys who are still living with mom and dad. Pay people better and suddenly they can get their own place, and have bills that need paying. Suddenly you get them in every day and working hard, as opposed to working for extra spending money because they can't afford any big purchases at $10-12. And all this is ignoring the fact that a lot of these people can get a $10-12 job elsewhere that pays normal overtime pay, and let's them work a normal 40 hour week. If you pay the minimum for workers you are going to get tired, frustrated, bottom of the barrel kind of guys.


So here is the real deal on all that. People get paid what people get paid. If they didn't want to work then they will go work elsewhere. I know beekeepers that pay their folks $150.00 a day every day regardless of the length of the day they are working. In other words it might be an easy day of 6 hours worth of feeding or it could be a grueling day of pulling honey from 8am till 7pm and loading bees and honey on a semi that night for moving them. You will find that more the norm that someone getting paid $80,000 annually as a general laborer putting on boxes and pulling boxes of honey. It's simple business, nothing more. Would you expect to work at McDonald's or Wendy's cooking burgers and expect to buy a $400,000 house and $60,000 car and support your spouse and kids on it?


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## Ian

BMAC said:


> Would you expect to work at McDonald's or Wendy's cooking burgers and expect to buy a $400,000 house and $60,000 car and support your spouse and kids on it?


expect that...entitled to it!


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## BMAC

:thumbsup:


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## sqkcrk

BMAC said:


> Would you expect to work at McDonald's or Wendy's cooking burgers and expect to buy a $400,000 house and $60,000 car and support your spouse and kids on it?


I don't work for myself and expect to buy a $400,000.00 house or a $60,000.00 car, unless that $60,000.00 car is a Freightliner w/ a sleeper.  And neither does anyone working at McDonald's or Wendy's or anyone working for a beekeeper. A living wage is not unreasonable to expect. Not being able to pay someone something somewhat reasonable regularly is one of the things which keeps me from hiring someone to work for me even on a part time basis.

If $10.00/hr for a laborer or $15.00/hr for someone experienced and capable isn't enough of an enticement maybe that plus meals and lodging is. And if not, I'll just have to work more hours and more days to get the job done.

I had help for a cpl days in SC and NC earlier this Spring. I paid my help $100.00 for each day. He declined that much, but I insisted. Because he helped spur me on to getting the job done, when I might have quit earlier or the semi would not have gotten loaded as quickly.

I tip waitstaff well too, imo. Good service deserves recognition.

Brian, I don't know if you served well, but I recognize that you did and honor you for doing so. :thumbsup:


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## JodieToadie

The $400,000 dollar house and the $60,000 dollar house are relative. A living wage is the right answer. Can the person you have working for you live and support themselves on the wage you are paying? If the answer is no, you are not paying enough. I don't want to enslave anyone to enrich myself. 
Cheap farm labor is just modern slavery.


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## BMAC

Sign me up. I demand $70.00 an hour as I want my $400,000.00 house. Let me know when to come work for you.


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## Thermwood

BMAC said:


> Sign me up. I demand $70.00 an hour as I want my $400,000.00 house. Let me know when to come work for you.


Work???....just send my payroll check to me, it would be easier if I didn't have to waste time showing up everyday. Please sent it early because I have bills to pay.......

And if you pay me more I will try harder!


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## BMAC

:lpf:


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## sqkcrk

$80,000.00/yr? That's $266.00 to $320.00/day. How many beekeepers do you know who pay that much?


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## Ian

JodieToadie said:


> Cheap farm labor is just modern slavery.


I don't think you understand what slavery actually is. Nobody is forcing my local guys to work here for $12-$15/hr. To most of them the job is a matter of convenience. Nobody is forcing any foreigners to work here in Canada. I have a list of 20 applicants on my waiting list... And I'm not hiring foreigners yet! Lol. The guys I have had work here as a temporary placement seen this job as an opportunity.


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## Ian

Right now I'm raising a family of 5 on less than we pay our full time farm workers, $16.50 per hour...
The wants vs needs of people pervert the whole standard of living equation.


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## Shouse

We let the Free Market determine what we pay for someone's labor. Our labor rate ranges from $10 to $15 and it depends on what that person can contribute to the profit line. You are not going to get rich working for someone else. Learn a skill, make the financial investment required, take that risks, and start your own business. If my employee gets to live in a $400,000 house, then I should be living in a $2 million house (I'm Not).
If there is a minimum wage for workers, there should be minimum wage for the owner of the business...now who's going to pay for that?


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## JodieToadie

The free market determines the labor rate? Funny I thought the illegals determined that. I cannot imagine that the labor rate would be that low if illegals were out of the picture. I think that if you pay more you get more.
More loyalty,
More focus,
More honesty,
More satisfaction in knowing you are helping someone else.


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## Ian

What is that price point Jodie? What specific $$$ value buys an employer more loyalty focus and honesty? Is it not you who decides the level of pay ?That decision is based on market conditions every way you look at it.

I can set my offering wage at $8/hr and nobody would apply. I set it at $12-$15/ hr and I have a line up of guys wanting to work. Is it my obligation to society to increase that offered wage to $20?, $30? Am I operating my business to increase someone else's standard of living? 
Absolutely not...


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## BMAC

I think what really needs to happen is all the folks that believe we are encouraging modern slavery should put their money where their mouth is and hire a couple of people at $25.00 an hour for medial tasks for 1 year. I bet that would make them see the light a little bit.


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## Shouse

JodieToadie said:


> The $400,000 dollar house and the $60,000 dollar house are relative. A living wage is the right answer. Can the person you have working for you live and support themselves on the wage you are paying? If the answer is no, you are not paying enough. I don't want to enslave anyone to enrich myself.
> Cheap farm labor is just modern slavery.


How many people do you hire?

Why don't you hire more?

How much do you pay them?

Why don't you pay them more?


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## Shouse

JodieToadie said:


> The free market determines the labor rate? Funny I thought the illegals determined that. I cannot imagine that the labor rate would be that low if illegals were out of the picture. I think that if you pay more you get more.
> More loyalty,
> More focus,
> More honesty,
> More satisfaction in knowing you are helping someone else.


Yes the Free Market determines the rate, both what I receive from my customers and what I pay out.

Illegals are people Too!

So, you THINK that money can buy:
More loyalty,
More focus,
More honesty,
More satisfaction in knowing you are helping someone else.

WOW! I have some $50.00 a pound honey I can sell you! Just think how satisfied you will be in knowing you helped me buy a new bass boat.


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## JodieToadie

Ian said:


> Right now I'm raising a family of 5 on less than we pay our full time farm workers, $16.50 per hour...
> The wants vs needs of people pervert the whole standard of living equation.


I am pretty sure you pay yourself that much so you can collect Child Tax Benefit, GST rebates, and pay the absolute minimum in Federal Tax and Provincial Tax. 
The rest is hidden in the farm account. Your home is the farm, you pay no rent. You likely have the farm pay for everything. It reads like good fiction though. I'd be doing the same thing given the same opportunity so I do not fault you for it. But I think have also perverted the wants vs. needs equation.


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## sqkcrk

I don't know how Ian has things set up, but I don't pay myself anything. I have no idea how much I make per hour, per day, per week, or per year. Not until the taxes are done do I have any idea how much I made in income. I do hope I make more than those I might pay to do work for me.

How does Ian pervert the wants vs needs equation?


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## JoshW

I find this argument about wages about the same I find the argument about charging customers too much money for merchandise. 

If your still buying it or working there, then the prices/wages are not yet too unreasonable for you.


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## Santa Caras

Michael Bush said:


> >I'm also surprised by the guy who works a day or two when the work is brutal because of the heat, the work etc. and then doesn't ever come back, but also doesn't bother to collect the pay they have coming?


I did that once when I was 20. Whse not beekeeping. First day they had me restacking bags of pesticide that were busted open. Of course I've got all day reading the warning label about all the hazards involved with this pesticide, pictures of skull n crossbones, all the while breathing the powder thats floating in the air from me working. Couldnt breath that nite, headache, didnt feel good. Went back the next day and he pointed to 10 more pallets that needed restacking of the same thing. I'm not the brightest bulb on the line but just bright enough to say. "No thank you......I wont be back!" Never did collect my check for that one day.


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## Ian

sqkcrk said:


> I don't know how Ian has things set up, but I don't pay myself anything. I have no idea how much I make per hour, per day, per week, or per year.


We run under a company, we pay ourselves a salary to live off. Its less than we pay out to our full time workers. HOw much an hour is it? Who knows, but I do know that when it comes to paying off the bills, our cheque is written last. 

Jodie, you still have not mentioned how much you pay your guys,?


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## JodieToadie

Ian said:


> We run under a company, we pay ourselves a salary to live off. Its less than we pay out to our full time workers. HOw much an hour is it? Who knows, but I do know that when it comes to paying off the bills, our cheque is written last.
> 
> Jodie, you still have not mentioned how much you pay your guys,?


$15.00 per hour. Like I said all relative.


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## Shouse

JodieToadie said:


> $15.00 per hour. Like I said all relative.


Why don't you pay more?

What Happened to buying:
"More loyalty,
More focus,
More honesty,
More satisfaction in knowing you are helping someone else." 

How many do you hire?


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## JodieToadie

But to be fair that is $15.00 cash. No deductions. As they are part-time as required. If I found a mature and hard-working person I think I could pay $20.00 plus or a performance bonus on the crop. Next year I will be desperate for help so I am fully expecting due to labor shortages a wage in the $20-25 range. The college at fairview is looking for a beekeeper in that range. 
https://www.gprc.ab.ca/careers/display.html?ID=2707

I also have employed a Temporary Foreign Worker. Not for beekeeping but for child care. I did pay minimum wage. I did not deduct room and board. I did pay an annual bonus and she did get paid holidays plus extra days that were paid. She has remained loyal to my family and still lives with us but works outside of our home. (Rent free) I pay her $200 cash a week for ~2 hours of work per day or roughly 10 hours a week. 

I sympathize with the workers. I understand the business model as well. Pay is also relative to cost of living. $10 bucks an hour in idaho might be sufficient, whereas $20 bucks in california might not be enough. 

Trust me my wife gets mad at me for being too giving to people who work for me. Does it sometimes happen at our expense? Yes. But the people who work for me rarely refuse to come back and do I think they are more loyal? Yes. Do I feel better with myself for paying them more than I have to? Yes. Would I likely have double the net worth if I was a hard *****? For sure.


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## BMAC

Is there such a shortage in Canada to hire foreigners to work labor type jobs? 

$15.00 an hour cash no deductions means you are not carrying insurance on your employees? Isn't that cheating your employees if they get hurt on the job?


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## irwin harlton

Yes there is a shortage in Canada to hire foreigners to work labor type jobs?
Few Canadians want to break into a sweat , pulling honey or doing menial labor type work, especially for just a couple dollars over the minimum wage.
Society has changed , we used to hire students, big strapping farm boys who knew all about hard work, and were eager for a job , not any more, just look at the high school parking lot, its full of student cars and not older models either.I dare say we have beome like our southern neighbous, soft and not wanting to get too dirty or too sweaty in a low paying job


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## BMAC

southern neighbors not wanting to get dirty and sweaty and soft??

You and I are not looking in the same places. I find plenty of my fellow Americans who are willing to work.


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## Ian

BMAC, from what I understand, the US has its own supply of "available" help. 

I agree on the paying under the table. It may put more money in the pocket of the employee, but it also creates a whole liability issue when/if someone gets hurt. NOt to mention EI benefits and employer expense deductions. Workers compensation may seem like a hindrance and cost to the employer but in fact it protects us from liability suits.

>>Society has changed , we used to hire students, big strapping farm boys who knew all about hard work,<<

agree Irwin. But I still have had the opportunity to find some of those "big strapping farm boys " to help me out. Im preparing for the day when I dont find my guys, and that is where this foreign labour program fits in. As you do, I see it as a essential tool to my business.


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## clyderoad

irwin harlton said:


> I dare say we have beome like our southern neighbous, soft and not wanting to get too dirty or too sweaty in a low paying job


How odd, In my circle we've been saying the same thing about our northern neighbors for years. Small world.


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## hpm08161947

As I ride down the road and look out at the fields, I only see Hispanics out doing the hot, sweaty, dirty jobs. The "regular" Americans are all up in the air conditioned cab of a John Deere.


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## Ian

Do you know about how much unskilled ag labour wages are at in the US?


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## hpm08161947

I believe H2-A unskilled foreign labor is being paid about $10 an hour, dormitory style housing is supplied. They seem to be hired in groups of about 50, each group returning to the same farm. Farmers complain vigorously that the program is top heavy with difficult to understand paperwork which earn them substantial penalties. But they have little choice.


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## BMAC

hpm08161947 said:


> As I ride down the road and look out at the fields, I only see Hispanics out doing the hot, sweaty, dirty jobs. The "regular" Americans are all up in the air conditioned cab of a John Deere.


We aren't talking about about berry farming or veggie farming. I can tell you this there were zero non english speaking folks that worked a veggie farm picking or whatever in Worchester Ma area back in the early 90s. I look around at my neighbors now and see 60-70 year old men bucking bales of hay when its haying season with the occassional 20 year old working it. I even see 15-18 year old girls working on their dads dairy farm busting their humps.

Now Im not saying we don't have a laziness issue running rampant in this country as we do. Im just here to point out my fellow born here Americans do also bust their humps and work and I personally have not had much issue finding them to help me for money and or trade of products.


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## KevinR

Minimal wage/Living wage is a joke that just leads to higher inflation. It's nothing but a numbers game... Woohoo, I make 15, 18, 300 dollars and hour, but the price of gas and the hamburgers just raise proportionally.

No one should be making minimal/living wage for life and waiting for the next hand out. You should work, learn, and then get paid what your worth. If the top salary for a box loader is 15 bucks, then go to school and become a lawyer.

With that said, the business has to be able to sustain that cost. If you think that Pizza hut is going to pay 15 bucks an hour to spread cheese on a piece of dough without raising the pizza costs. You are confused, that or they are going to cut staff.

No different than a beekeeper not being able to pay their laborers in gold coins and diamonds as much as they might want to.

It's basic math people, this isn't rocket surgery.

Back to the original question, I "donate" my time to the commercial guys when I get the chance. But they know they can't call me on some random Monday, since I have to work something other than a "living" wage job.


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## Keith Jarrett

well said, KevinR


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## Barry Digman

Rocket surgery?


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## sqkcrk

Really Barry? You question that and not "minimal wage". Don't you recognize an internet faupaux?


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## KevinR

Barry Digman said:


> Rocket surgery?


Brain Surgery + Rocket Science = The Dreaded Rocket Surgery...


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## Flyer Jim

hpm08161947 said:


> The "regular" Americans


What's a "regular" American?


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## Flyer Jim

KevinR said:


> Brain Surgery + Rocket Science = The Dreaded Rocket Surgery...


They're just not up with the times.


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## hpm08161947

Flyer Jim said:


> What's a "regular" American?


The ones without the H2-A visas.


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## Ian

BMAC said:


> Im just here to point out my fellow born here Americans do also bust their humps and work and I personally have not had much issue finding them to help me for money and or trade of products.


I agree BMAC, same here in Canada. Lots of hard working people out there on the country side. 

For anyone on the otherside of the issue, tell me straight, how many homeland workers do you find working on the killing floor cutting meat? or like BMAC say, picking vegies? 
This is the way we work our economy, we need those cheap abundant labourers which ever way we look at this issue. And this leaves the hard working local work force available for better paying higher skilled jobs. Without those low skilled minimum wage workers, we cant develop the higher skilled better paying jobs....
Just the way it is...its called "classes", People hate that term, but it was with us thousand years ago, and it will be with us a thousand years ahead....


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## sqkcrk

It is called Capitalism for a reason, don't ya think?


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## hpm08161947

Ian said:


> I agree BMAC, same here in Canada. Lots of hard working people out there on the country side.
> 
> ....


These hard working people of NY and Canada I suspect are somehow linked to the Land, else they would not do this kind of work. These "Linked to the Land" people are largely gone here in the South.

The Famiily Farm still exists in the North.... at least to some degree, but it has been totally eradicated here in the South.


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## BMAC

It has not been totally eradicated in the south. I planted myself on a family run farm in Ga that has been there since way before the war of northern agression. In fact most of the land owners in Ga I put bees on have farms that have been in the family for generations.


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## hpm08161947

BMAC said:


> It has not been totally eradicated in the south. I planted myself on a family run farm in Ga that has been there since way before the war of northern agression. In fact most of the land owners in Ga I put bees on have farms that have been in the family for generations.


Often times when you find out the details of one of those small Family Farms you discover that it is really not self-sustaining and doesn't provide a living for it's family who nearly all work in town and use the farm as tax dodge.


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## Ian

sqkcrk said:


> It is called Capitalism for a reason, don't ya think?


yes, sometimes it aint pretty


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## sqkcrk

And some times it isn't fair. Some times some people benefit at the expense of others. I don't employ anyone regularly. But if I did I would hope that I would benefit more from my business than they would. Otherwise I should be working for them.

People who work for others should be happy w/ the pay they get or they should negotiate for better pay or they should find other employment.


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## Ian

and fair seems to be worked out in the market place, domestic and international.


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## Honey-4-All

Ian said:


> and fair seems to be worked out in the market place, domestic and international.


Amen brother IAN.... You can say that again !!!!!!!!!!!


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