# People actually make a living with honey production??



## sqkcrk

Longevity and modest expectations.


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## My-smokepole

That and they learn how to make $ other way off the bees. Selling bees,wax queens and so on. I hope to majorly support my retirement with the bees in general. 
David


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## rookie2531

From what I see, people don't like or want that stuff from Walmart. Many like the raw stuff and local honey has the stuff that your local plants have, so many like it for the pollen allergies.

I haven't made a dime yet, but just started this past spring. If you buy every piece of equipment, then yes, the profits will go towards the Mann lake, dad ant, Kelley and whoever, but you can make your own for a lot less. I can make a 10 frame hive, 2 deeps, 3 mediums, SBB, top, inner, and all frames for less than 125. And that's buying all material. If I was to work a little and ask construction crews for their scrap, I'm sure it could be alot less.


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## Santa Caras

Your right. Most of the honey on a retail stores shelf is garbage. Some of it is okay I think but 90% of it...blechhh.
As for making money thru honey......Gonna take A LOT of hives to produce enough to keep an American family going these days I'd think.


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## beemandan

There are many businesses that will not earn the owner enough money to pay his total costs in the first year. That's a pretty high expectation. Many people take much of the potential profits and reinvest in expanding the enterprise. I worked for over five years with my bee business before I finally took a penny out. It is a hard business. You can make more money with a real job.


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## drlonzo

I think the biggest trick with business in general is to know your market, know your product range, and keep a close eye on expenses. Knowing where your products fit in the market, and pricing correctly will help you to make the right decisions towards spending in the right areas.

If you're willing to go into debt to finance your business, it can be done faster but with more stress in the end. If you're willing to take the time and build your base market, it all falls into place in time. 

Those that build your own equipment, saves plenty in this business, but at the same time once you get to a certain point, that savings can directly affect other things like your personal time with family, making it a necessity to change your methods at that point. 

I like so many others out there are doing just that with my business and it takes time and patience.


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## Vance G

Commercial beeks do not pay hobbyist prices. Buying in volume matters. A lot of the things hobbyists think are necessary are not part of a commercial beeks depreciation schedule. In the early seventies, I was building a deep box and putting frames in it for around $11.00 Now It costs me less than three times that. I sold honey retail for about a buck a pound then and in the barrel for .55cents or got .61 cents for a USDA commodities loan and surrendered the honey. Better yields were standard then and there was money to be made. Now with higher prices for honey and lucrative pollination opportunities, I think one could still build a profitable business. All it needs is a tremendous amount of hard work and make few mistakes and keep overhead down. You may die with some property and assets but I think you could live bigger just working for the guvmint and have regular days off and vacations. I chose the guvmint job but always regretted it.


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## Haraga

Jwhitker, 400$ seems high for your hive materials. I don't understand why your wood only lasts a few years. You may have to look within yourself to increase your chances of a profit. With that being said, I have always maintained that there is no better tax write off in agriculture than bees.


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## babybee

Are you sitting your woodenware in termite mounds????? A honey super should last darn near forever. Keep them inside when not on the bees and keep out the wax moths and I can't see why they wouldn't look new in 20 years. As for the hive bodies themselves, even on pallets where leaves and grass and dust build up and hold moisture we still get over 5 years out of an untreated box twice as long for treated. Now to the frames, if you think you need to rotate frames out at a pace of every other year just quit now!!! I know beekeepers with plenty of 30 plus year old brood frames. Now I myself try to rotate the frames out of my singles every 4 years. It doesn't happen to every hive. I do this mostly because I like working with good equipment.


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## gone2seed

I have some equiptment nearly forty years old.I still have some of the plastic bottom boards from when they were first made.Granted most woodenware doesn't last forty years but most should last 20 with some basic upkeep. Frames?They never wear out.A few get broken but not many. The old wax gets melted and salvaged. Good,usable deep frames get cycled out with the nucs I sell in the spring.


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## jbraun

How to make a small fortune in bee keeping? Start with a large fortune!


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## jim lyon

I have some equipment that is 60 years old and still quite serviceable. The fundamentals for making money in commercial beekeeping is better than at any time in my life and I have been doing this for over 40 years. Startup costs are high, no doubt, but honey prices and pollination fees are at record levels as well. If the idea of "pimping your bees out to the almonds" dosen't appeal to you then you had better make it up with superior beekeeping skills because you have just written off a big part of your potential income. About 20 years ago folks were just starting to charge for almond pollination and honey prices were under $1.00 per lb. It was only about 15 years ago that I was happy if almond pollination netted me $20 per hive above the cost of trucking and the bees came out strong enough to split. Ignore those who say money can't be made in this business but understand to do so may well require a lifestyle change and the flexibility to adapt with the times.


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## jwhiteker

Haraga said:


> Jwhitker, 400$ seems high for your hive materials. I don't understand why your wood only lasts a few years. You may have to look within yourself to increase your chances of a profit. With that being said, I have always maintained that there is no better tax write off in agriculture than bees.


Haraga,

I have often wondered if you can claim a loss in the honey production business. Do you think this would be feasible for someone wanting to run 5 or 10 hives? I am interested in doing business this way. From what I've heard, you can only claim a loss for a few years though. Also, is there anything similar to a farm subsidy or crop insurance situation for honey or bees I wonder? I would sure feel better not hedging a bet on bees surviving each winter.


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## jwhiteker

Thank you all very much for your input. I have considered lots of your ideas, but there were some in this thread that I had not considered. I have built some of my own equipment and while it saves some cash, I just don't know if I really see the savings after I put my labor into it. I guess with a 40+ hour job and going to school, beekeeping is just a stretch for me. Unfortunately, I have been bitten by the bug to keep bees and sell honey. I will keep on keeping on. I'm very much considering turning this into a small legitimate business that loses money on the book on a regular basis. Who knows, maybe someday the stars will all align, CCD and neonics will go to the wayside and I will be able to operate in the black!


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## Haraga

Jwhiteker, generally speaking, a business in the tax mans eyes is one that has a reasonable expectation to earn a profit. 
I said that there is no better tax write off. I never said anything about showing a loss. My advice to you is to never show a loss. I have a relative that works at Revenue Canada and he told me that a loss is the number 1 way to get red flagged for an audit. 
If I were you I would overlook all the negatives that you mentioned about keeping bees, grow on a cash basis and enjoy the ride.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

> By my rough estimates, I have $400 invested in material for each hive (2 deeps, 3 supers).


WOW! I couldn't afford to keep bees either with those costs! After my heart attack I had to start over from ground zero. I now have a dozen hives and seriously doubt I have $400 invested in the whole shooting match! I built all my own wooden ware. Then I started with one package and split and split and split again. I've been in the black since my 2nd season. I use all deeps and never pay retail for anything!

HTH

Rusty


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## jwhiteker

Haraga said:


> Jwhiteker, If I were you I would overlook all the negatives that you mentioned about keeping bees, grow on a cash basis and enjoy the ride.


I appreciate the advice for sure. I think I will continue to operate on a cash basis if I can. I've heard that the local farmer's markets have been getting checked for tax ID#'s and such. I just don't know where to draw the line with operating on cash only and becoming a legitimate business on the books. I will do some more small business research and continue to ask folks who have done it on a level similar to myself and see what kind of suggestions I get. It seems that most beeks in my area are either large commercial operation, or very small hobby keepers. There doesn't seem to be much in between.


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## Ian

Santa Caras said:


> Your right. Most of the honey on a retail stores shelf is garbage. Some of it is okay I think but 90% of it...blechhh.


hey now, some of that honey is mine and your neighbours. Shal we do a taste test between yours and mine off the shelf?


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## Ben Little

Ian said:


> hey now, some of that honey is mine and your neighbours. Shal we do a taste test between yours and mine off the shelf?


:thumbsup:


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## beeware10

ok for example lets say a guy and his wife work for a commercial guy for a few years and take nucs as part of their pay. after a few years they build up to 600 hives and start for themselves. the bees are paid for and they buy property and build a combo house/honey house. their bees are not called girls and they have no top bar hives. everything is geared to make a living. there is no 8.00 dollar honey. when it goes into a barrel 2.50 is a good price. a good year should produce a 100# average. makes for 150k gross plus ya need a truck operating expenses etc. you don't get rich but ya can make a living.


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## Ian

beeware10 said:


> there is no 8.00 dollar honey. when it goes into a barrel 2.50 is a good price. a good year should produce a 100# average. makes for 150k gross plus ya need a truck operating expenses etc. you don't get rich but ya can make a living.


bout right
Our strategy is to make it till next year LOL!


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## Rader Sidetrack

jwhiteker said:


> I've heard that the local farmer's markets have been getting checked for tax ID#'s and such.


I think it is important to understand that if you have a "regular" job, then you already have a Tax ID, which would be your Social Security number that you use to file IRS 1040 returns with. If you live in a state that has _state _income tax, most likely your Social Security number is also your state (income) tax ID. You can use that same Tax ID to report business income on Schedule C or farm income on Schedule F.

A separate issue is state _sales tax_. You may need a separate tax ID if you are required to collect sales tax when selling honey. In _some _cases/states, ordinary honey is considered a "farm" product and _may _not be subject to state sales tax. This will vary by state and may vary depending on the type of facility where the honey is sold (meaning "farm" sales may be exempt, but that same honey retailed through a "store" may not be exempt from sales tax).

Most likely, if a farmers market is asking about tax IDs, they are concerned about state _sales tax_.

.


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## sqkcrk

jbraun said:


> How to make a small fortune in bee keeping? Start with a large fortune!


If your goal is to make a living keeping bees then right now is the best of times. Pollination prices are at historic highs and honey prices are too. If you can't make it now, maybe you aren't really willing to do the work.


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## sqkcrk

jwhiteker said:


> Haraga,
> 
> I have often wondered if you can claim a loss in the honey production business. Do you think this would be feasible for someone wanting to run 5 or 10 hives? I am interested in doing business this way. From what I've heard, you can only claim a loss for a few years though. Also, is there anything similar to a farm subsidy or crop insurance situation for honey or bees I wonder? I would sure feel better not hedging a bet on bees surviving each winter.


Do these questions bother anyone else, or is it just me. Five or ten hives? Interested in doing business this way? You are not in business. Try filling out a Schedule F Profit or Loss from Farming and see if the IRS will go along w/it. If you use an accountant to do your taxes they better advise you not to.

"farm subsidy"? Is this honey you want to start a business? Subsidized by Uncle Sam? Crop Insurance? Sure. But you have to pay for it, like any other insurance.

I don't understand where you are coming from Jwhitker. Pay your dues. That's how it's done. Spend the money. Go into debt and work your way out of it. But maybe first you should figure out how to get more bees through the Winter than not.

Where is that "shaking my head" icon Graham? I think you are a bit out of your element and way ahead of yourself worrying about making money keeping bees.


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## Rader Sidetrack

sqkcrk said:


> Where is that "shaking my head" icon Graham? I think you are a bit out of your element and way ahead of yourself worrying about making money keeping bees.


I'd call this icon "shaking my head" :kn:
for future reference, its keyboard shortcut is colonkncolon where colon is :

Mark, I'm hoping that your second sentence just has an _odd_ juxtaposition and is not really directed to me. If it was, I might be inclined to use this icon in response ...

:ws:


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## The Honey Householder

Avg. cost to run a hive on a 1000 hive operation is right around $110 a hive, and on avg honey production is 100+ lb. If you wholesale it off at $2.75 that $170-200 avg profit per hive. :scratch:
Now if you retail at $8 a lb your whole crop, you might be able to run again next year.:roll eyes:
Make a living producing honey, well 34 years at it so far. ONLY HONEY PRODUCTION.


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## Roland

But unlike many other endeavors, this one is very high risk, due to CCD, "Climate change" and assorted unidentified bee killing agricultural chemicals. You can make money, but you better be prepared for all the "bads" to happen in a row. 

All in all, you would have to be crazy to still be at this after 162 years(Sorry Householder, had to show you up), it is hard on the nerves.

Roland Diehnelt
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


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## David LaFerney

If it was easy then everyone would do it. Then it wouldn't be profitable enough to be worth doing.


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## Heintz88

beemandan said:


> You can make more money with a real job.


A real job huh? Rude.


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## clyderoad

sqkcrk said:


> Do these questions bother anyone else, or is it just me.


Not just you, bothers the heck out of me.


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## babybee

Ok, who is selling wholesale honey at 2.75 per pound?????? Or shall I ask who is buying for that?? I am not sure it is fair to stretch the numbers. 100 plus average?? Not likely. 2.75 no way. How about 60 pounds at 2 bucks. Pollinate almonds and sell a split per hive kept alive. Seems more likely to me. And a very good way to lead a profitable fulfilling independent existence.


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## jwhiteker

I apologize if I ruffled some feathers with my comments or questions. I have the utmost respect for those of you that have worked hard and manged to run a business keeping bees. I work extremely hard at my day job, painting business jets. I hate the job, but it pays the bills. I am just looking to keep bees responsibly and at least make it pay for itself or possibly supplement my retirement some day. Let me clarify, I am not looking for gov't support. I have never been one to take advantage of the system. I have done nothing but work my butt off my entire life to get where I am today. I was only asking the questions to see if there was some sort of income for beekeepers that I wasn't aware of. I still just don't see how you guys do it. I very much appreciate your honesty with me though. Honey Householder, if I can get my bees to make 100+ lbs. then yes, I can see positive numbers. 

Apologies for the rabbit trail here, but I cannot imagine pulling 100+ lbs. from each hive and leaving them _anything_ for winter stores. I left probably 50+ lbs. on each hive between back-filled brood boxes and about a half full honey super on each hive. Does it require taking more honey from each hive and feeding vigorously through the winter to make a profit?

And one last thing I cannot get out of my head... you all work so hard at this, and then sell the honey for $2.50/lb. wholesale??? It bothers me that the price is not much higher and that you all are not offered better wholesale prices. Like I said, I can sell this stuff for $8/lb. all day long and actually get some frowns because that is undercutting some other beeks in my area. Granted, that is true wildflower honey from bees that haven't been treated with chemicals, but still. I really appreciate everyone's honesty here. I think I need to pay a visit to some different apiaries in my area that do this on a more professional level, and do lots more homework before I go much further with this endeavor.


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## Haraga

Jwhiteker, lets address your original post. Please give me the breakdown on how the wood cost you 400$. 
Now lets address your last post. What is there to hate about your current job? I am an A&P mechanic. Radar and FCC. I have stripped and painted general av aircraft. I have been on crews where we taped and painted commercial aircraft. Painting is an art with plenty of satisfaction when one gets just the right amount of paint on to where is glosses out but does not run. Building the jigs and getting the control surfaces balanced perfectly provides instant gratification. Painting an aircraft is not extremely hard work. Shoveling grain into an auger because the draw in auger is broke down to fill a superbee trailer is extremely hard work. If you want to feel eternity gather up your neighbor and shovel a few bin bottoms. You will appreciate painting after that work out. 
My day started when I cracked out of bed at 12:38 this morning to drive an hour to finish wrapping hives before the wind starts howling later today. It's now almost 5 am and my cigarette break is almost over. 
Bottom line, appreciate what you have and enjoy the ride to what you don't have. If you are jacking with bees for hopes of profit then you are in it for the wrong reasons. Forget about the profits. That will come in time. Now it's lightly raining and 8 Celsius so I better get moving. I will check back when I jump back into the truck to warm up.


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## The Honey Householder

Seven year avg. 127. This year 131 lb avg. and yes I take everything. At these prices why would you let the bees eat it (feed is cheap). I am a HONEY PRODUCER!!!!!!! This is my REAL JOB.
$2.75 in the barrels was the low end this year in pricing.:thumbsup:
Wife owns her own retail store and avg.$9.50 a lb.


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## JSL

Babybee,

It is the backyard beekeepers selling honey that will buy your honey at $2.75, but you may have to put it in buckets... 

Ron, 

Babybee is a good guy, this sounds like a sweet deal for both of you!


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## dsegrest

Selling honey or raising bees is kind of like selling drugs. You can make enough to support your own habit. The difference with honey is you get a 15 year old pickup instead of a shiny new BMW.


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## David LaFerney

Depends on what you consider to be "real" money. Mr. Housholder is commercial, but when I do the math based on his numbers (thanks for being so forthcoming BTW) It certainly looks to me like he makes a decent living. That's commercial. I'm just a hobbyist and I assure you that you can average $250 profit from each of your hobby hives - for an aging construction worker like me that's "real". You can also lose money. Depends on a lot of factors - but mostly on the beekeeper. In other words it's just like any other business.


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## beemandan

Heintz88 said:


> A real job huh? Rude.


I suppose....if you're sitting around looking to get insulted. The op has a few hives and is interested in making money. His return on time and energy will make him much more money with a 'regular' job. If, somehow, your nose is bent out of shape by that.....so be it.


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## dsegrest

In NC one needs a state sales tax id or "license". Many local markets also require a privilege license.


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## Fishman43

The Honey Householder said:


> Avg. cost to run a hive on a 1000 hive operation is right around $110 a hive...


Is that ALL costs to run the operation (equipment, treatments, feed, time, mileage, etc, etc, etc...), so everything above that is profit?


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## irwin harlton

Its not all profit or high margin in this crazy business, there is a element of risk involved in JUST keeping bees alive and producing honey and pollinating crops.The odds are better drilling for oil than chasing a honey crop,.....there's more science involved and its not weather dependent.With any risk compensation is involved and
the present prices reflect this but may not be adequate


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## LSPender

I drive a Mercedes S 500


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## BeeEplorer

Santa Caras said:


> Most of the honey on a retail stores shelf is garbage.


"Does all honey that is sold in retail stores produce the same health benefits as pure, unpasteurized, natural honey? No. Natural honey contains pollen and other constituents that are removed in the heating and filtering process. Pasteurized honey, does not have the same enzymes and health benefits of unpasteurized honey. Also, if a plant has been genetically altered in anyway the trace elements from those modifications can be transferred into the honey from the bees during nectar collection and honey production."
http://www.westernsagehoney.com/faqs.html

BeeExplorer


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## Haraga

Bee explorer, specifically what trace elements are you referring to?


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## BeeEplorer

Haraga said:


> Bee explorer, specifically what trace elements are you referring to?


Haraga, you can find some information here: 
"Bee Pollination in Agricultural Ecosystems"
Rosalind James and Theresa L. Pitts-Singer
" As bees liberally pass pollen from one plant to the next, they also impact the broader ecosystem, and not always to the benefit of humankind. Bees can enhance the unintentional spread of genes from genetically engineered plants, and may increase the spread of invasive weeds."

and here:http://net-on.org/1456/Honey-Health-Benefits-Side-Effects-Uses-Dosage-Warnings

BeeExplorer


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## Ian

Well, that clears that issue up ! Lol


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## sqkcrk

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I'd call this icon "shaking my head" :kn:
> for future reference, its keyboard shortcut is colonkncolon where colon is :
> 
> Mark, I'm hoping that your second sentence just has an _odd_ juxtaposition and is not really directed to me. If it was, I might be inclined to use this icon in response ...
> 
> :ws:


Poor sentence placement. Sorry.


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## sqkcrk

jwhiteker said:


> I apologize
> 
> 
> Apologies for the rabbit trail here, but I cannot imagine pulling 100+ lbs. from each hive and leaving them _anything_ for winter stores.
> 
> 
> And one last thing I cannot get out of my head... you all work so hard at this, and then sell the honey for $2.50/lb. wholesale???


Apology accepted. Sometimes I get in a huff. :lookout:

If you ran your hives like The Honey Householder you would. You have to know and understand his system. It's a rare one, as is he. Respectfully written.

That's the difference between Wholesale and Retail. I can deliver $1,000.00 of product to a store all at once and you have to stand around a Farm Mkt all day long many weekends a year to bring in $1,000.00. I like visiting w/ people, but not that much. Besides, I have tons of honey to distribute, not a few hundred or a cpl thousand. And plenty of beekeepers put their honey in barrels and ship it down the road and get a huge check all at once.


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## sqkcrk

Fishman43 said:


> Is that ALL costs to run the operation (equipment, treatments, feed, time, mileage, etc, etc, etc...), so everything above that is profit?


Annually, once everything is paid for.


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## sqkcrk

LSPender said:


> I drive a Mercedes S 500


I have a Mercedes too, in my Bobcat.


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## Haraga

That looks like a good read. I will look at it in more detail when I am not driving. But in the meantime maybe you could quickly tell me what are "the trace elements from those modifications"?


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## sqkcrk

And where do people who don't eat honey get their RDA of those trace elements? By trace they mean very small amounts, right?


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## Kiddkop

:kn:


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## BeeEplorer

Haraga said:


> That looks like a good read. I will look at it in more detail when I am not driving.


It's a good idea, if you are a seriuse reader.
http://www.amazon.com/Pollination-Agricultural-Ecosystems-Rosalind-James/dp/0195316959

BeeExplorer


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## BeeGhost

My first hive and package of bees cost me over $300 from a bee keeping supplies store, I quickly learned about other venues to get my supplies from a lot cheaper and also what I should make and what I should buy. I collected swarms and bought one nuc after that original purchase. Since then I have made my own queens, split my own bees and in learning from a lot of other people on this site, I have stream lined my operation, at least for my sized operation. I do almond pollination, why not im already here in CA and an hour away from where my grower is, so I am money ahead compared to out of staters. Almonds is a great place to build up your hives early, and if you take care of them they will be just fine coming out of almonds as well. Just off pollination I have made enough to cover all my wooden ware expenses and put a little money in my pocket. I also sell honey at $10 a pound and do very well in sales with limited social media advertisement and of course word of mouth. Can you make money off bees, you bet, but just like in anything, you can watch your operation dwindle down to nothing as well. Again I have learned a lot from different people on here about when to treat, when to feed pollen sub/syrup and so on and after being serious about it this year, my hives are in the best shape I have ever seen them for this time of year!! The only hive I have lost so far was to a failed drone laying queen.............instead of the usual varroa collapse!!


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## snl

People actually make a living with honey production??
Nah, we're all in it because we like to throw good money after bad AND we just love bees!!!

Seriously, you really think there w/b commercial or side-liner beekeepers if there was not money to be made?


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## BeeEplorer

sqkcrk said:


> By trace they mean very small amounts, right?


Nevertheless,
"The European Commission is proposing to modify the honey directive to define pollen as a natural constituent of honey rather than an ingredient, as was decided by the Court of Justice of the European Union (CJEU), to allow the selling of GMO-contaminated honey without the consumers knowing it. Thanks to the Greens/EFA shadow rapporteur, Bart Staes, an impact assessment to identify the most important economic, social and environmental impacts of the proposed change has been required by the ENVI Committee.
The assessment concluded that such a change in the status of pollen in honey would increase honey imports to countries in the European Union (EU) from non-EU countries and may facilitate the cultivation of GMO crops insofar that beekeepers will face less restrictions in locating their hives nearby GMO fields. For the Greens/EFA group, such a change would benefit GMO growers at the expense of honey producers and consumers. It makes a mockery of the spirit of the GMO labelling regulation (Reg. 1829/2003) and of the EU court decision. *The group has proposed amendments to the Commission proposal *to make sure that beekeepers and honey producers keep the same rights *to be protected from GMO contamination as all other farmers and that consumers are informed about GMO traces in honey*."
http://www.greens-efa.eu/gmo-in-digest-10608.html

BeeExplorer


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## BeeEplorer

jwhiteker said:


> Ideas, tips, suggestions ??


Find any organic farmer who needs your bees and try to analyze this approach: 
http://www.amazon.com/Y-S-Organic-B...1415398813&sr=8-2-spell&keywords=organichoney
BeeExplorer


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## The Honey Householder

Fishman43 said:


> Is that ALL costs to run the operation (equipment, treatments, feed, time, mileage, etc, etc, etc...), so everything above that is profit?


My operation has been paid off for years. Old boxes still make you money 30+ years later. My time is what I call my profit. Treatment????(all profit) I'm a chemical free honey producer. Feed (I get 80% of my feed gave to me by a bakery that truck it to me for free). $110 a hive is because I'm one that likes to drive a new truck.


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## Angelo

BeeEplorer said:


> Find any organic farmer who needs your bees and try to analyze this approach:
> http://www.amazon.com/Y-S-Organic-B...1415398813&sr=8-2-spell&keywords=organichoney
> BeeExplorer[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> Hi Everyone.
> 
> 16$ per pound is the very good price.
> And idea to sell organic honey on Amazon.com is a good idea too.
> Thanks to the Amazon.com or Alibaba.com you can eliminate the middleman.
> 
> Angelo


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## gone2seed

First,there is no such thing as "organic" honey.Unless you have bees on an island more than five miles from any other land and that far from other humans then you have no control over where your bees forage.
Now,a question.If any of you sell by mail how do you pack honey to make it acceptable to the carrier and to insure that it gets to the customer in one piece. I may need to expand.


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## Angelo

gone2seed said:


> Now,a question.If any of you sell by mail how do you pack honey to make it acceptable to the carrier and to insure that it gets to the customer in one piece. I may need to expand.


E-commerce is a new reality:
http://www.amazon.com/Organic-Raw-C...&keywords=organic+honey+++tropical++tradition

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313&_nkw=honey&_sacat=0

http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=honey

Angelo


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## gone2seed

Thanks for the links Angelo.I know where to sell it I need to know how it's packed to ship safely.
Generally speaking I do not think the postal service accepts liquids so that leaves Fed X and UPS for me.
I'm thinking styrofoam lined box and double plastic bags.


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## Rader Sidetrack

You can mail liquids through the US Postal Service. If you are mailing honey in glass containers, you will need to package it appropriately. See the requirements in this USPS document:

http://pe.usps.com/Archive/PDF/DMMArchive0514/601.pdf
Look for page 601.2.3 in the upper right corner.


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## whitebark

I don't understand why folks don't just get that so long as you can pay your equipment off to start with, it is quite easy to sell thousands of pounds of honey at $5/lb over the course of a year. I sell 1,000 lbs per month from July until it is gone, usually around December, all by doing a few markets, word of mouth, and social media. I get countless requests through the winter that I can't meet and am convinced that I could sell much more than this if I wanted. I often just post on Facebook that honey is ready, put a bunch on my porch and come home to $$ in the mailbox. The beauty with honey is it is a consumable, you will have many repeat customers. My town is 6,500 people with 34,000 within a 30 minute drive so not a big market either.


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## sqkcrk

whitebark, do you consider that making a living? $6,000.00 annual income is well below the poverty line.

$5.00/pound retail isn't very much. Double your price and you will make more profit and probably have honey available until March.


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## Snowhitsky

Sqkcrk.

I believe Whitebark said "I sell 1,000 lbs *per *month from July until it is gone". He didn't specify how much he sells, only the monthly volume so $6,000 would be a minimum. Or have I missed something?


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## Angelo

gone2seed said:


> I'm thinking styrofoam lined box and double plastic bags.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Styrofoam-P...7?pt=BI_Mailers_Envelopes&hash=item1c319e0543
In addition, I would recommend You to mark your boxes as *FRAGILE* (for glass containers).

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=FRAGILE stikers

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Styrofoam-P...7?pt=BI_Mailers_Envelopes&hash=item1c319e0543

Angelo


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## whitebark

My point was I sell 1,000 lbs per month until roughly December and that honey being consumable the demand really doesn't end. $5,000 is a monthly minimum while I have honey and like so many others on here, it sure would be nice to have more bees and honey. My real point is that even if you are producing 10,000 lbs of honey per year (which is not much by many standards and is far more than I produce at present), you can likely easily market it all yourself and avoid the low wholesale prices. Even at this production level you are only grossing 50k per year, which isn't the best but there are worse ways to make that type of money.


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## Angelo

whitebark said:


> ...you can likely easily market it all yourself and *avoid the low wholesale prices*.


Excellent point.

Angelo


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## sqkcrk

Snowhitsky said:


> Sqkcrk.
> 
> I believe Whitebark said "I sell 1,000 lbs *per *month from July until it is gone". He didn't specify how much he sells, only the monthly volume so $6,000 would be a minimum. Or have I missed something?


July to December is 6 months here in the US. That's the same in Spain, Si?

But mostly my point is that he is underselling his potential. Undercutting his Profit. Were I him, I wouldn't care about how fast it sells, I'd sell it for more. He could raise his price and still sell out in 6 months. Or even 5. And make more money.


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## sqkcrk

whitebark said:


> My point was I sell 1,000 lbs per month until roughly December and that honey being consumable the demand really doesn't end. $5,000 is a monthly minimum while I have honey and like so many others on here, it sure would be nice to have more bees and honey. My real point is that even if you are producing 10,000 lbs of honey per year (which is not much by many standards and is far more than I produce at present), you can likely easily market it all yourself and avoid the low wholesale prices. Even at this production level you are only grossing 50k per year, which isn't the best but there are worse ways to make that type of money.


Well stated. I think you have this in the right perspective.


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## MNbees

sqkcrk said:


> whitebark, do you consider that making a living? $6,000.00 annual income is well below the poverty line.
> 
> $5.00/pound retail isn't very much. Double your price and you will make more profit and probably have honey available until March.


5 bucks a pound retail is actually a lot. How could you ask more than that? In the store they selling for 6 or so.
$10 a pound, are you trying to rip people off? There are alot of people in my area (twin cities) who ask to much for honey. As a result I sell way more. I deliver honey to the store at $4 per pound average, less as the size goes up. We retail 100k lbs per year and bottle every drop by hand. I am not a fan of people over pricing their honey because they sell/produce less.


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## Haraga

Mnbees I agree. I don't like to let greed get in the way of success.


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## The Honey Householder

How much is to much? $$$$

I wholesale in the barrel for $2.75/ package bees at $75 if you can get them. 90% of 2014 crop sold already. My wife retails the other 10% at $8-12 a lb.
2004 honey price $.71/ package bees at $27. ( most deals now at days charge more then $27 above what they get the package for.)
WOW!!! what 10 years does to a Indust.

I would hate to having to agree with Mark.
Each area is different. You sell it for what every the market demands.


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## sqkcrk

MNbees said:


> 5 bucks a pound retail is actually a lot. How could you ask more than that? In the store they selling for 6 or so.
> $10 a pound, are you trying to rip people off? There are alot of people in my area (twin cities) who ask to much for honey. As a result I sell way more. I deliver honey to the store at $4 per pound average, less as the size goes up. We retail 100k lbs per year and bottle every drop by hand. I am not a fan of people over pricing their honey because they sell/produce less.


Whatever suits you MN. Fine by me. I wholesale my honey in one pound jars and one pound invert containers for $5.00/lb, direct store delivery to stores. 

Why would you sell your honey for less than what stores sell theirs for? 

You can't rip someone off if you are selling them what they want at a price they are willing to pay. Where's the rip off?


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## Ben Little

:thumbsup:
If you sell all of your honey and customers are happy then why bother lowering your price? That's what keeps the bills paid and if you can't pay your bills then you're out of business and they go elsewhere for their honey. 

*I do not think ripping anyone off is ever a good thing but I do want to stay in business and I will do what is needed to keep it that way.*


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## clyderoad

MNbees said:


> 5 bucks a pound retail is actually a lot. How could you ask more than that? In the store they selling for 6 or so.
> $10 a pound, are you trying to rip people off? There are alot of people in my area (twin cities) who ask to much for honey. As a result I sell way more. I deliver honey to the store at $4 per pound average, less as the size goes up. We retail 100k lbs per year and bottle every drop by hand. I am not a fan of people over pricing their honey because they sell/produce less.


You are selling yourself and your product short at these prices.


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## jim lyon

clyderoad said:


> You are selling yourself and your product short at these prices.


For 100K pounds? Hardly. I'm sitting on a warehouse full of some of the prettiest water white to extra white honey I have ever produced. I've sent samples to most major buyers in the country and the only bid I have gotten over $2.00 is for 6 month deferred pay. I can wait, the nice thing about honey is it keeps.


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## rkereid

jim lyon said:


> "Quote Originally Posted by clyderoad View Post
> You are selling yourself and your product short at these prices."
> 
> For 100K pounds? Hardly. I'm sitting on a warehouse full of some of the prettiest water white to extra white honey I have ever produced. I've sent samples to most major buyers in the country and the only bid I have gotten over $2.00 is for 6 month deferred pay. I can wait, the nice thing about honey is it keeps.


It's really just supply and demand. The big producers have so much more honey than the hobbyists and sideliners, that they will run out of storage space before next year. The small producers usually work a local market. It's usually a different buyer.

Jim- you'll have to move it in preparation for next year's harvest, won't you? It's a shame we import so much honey in this country and yet that's all they are willing to pay for homegrown product.

Richard


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## jim lyon

rkereid said:


> It's really just supply and demand. The big producers have so much more honey than the hobbyists and sideliners, that they will run out of storage space before next year. The small producers usually work a local market. It's usually a different buyer.
> 
> Jim- you'll have to move it in preparation for next year's harvest, won't you? It's a shame we import so much honey in this country and yet that's all they are willing to pay for homegrown product.
> 
> Richard


I'm prepared to sit if need be.....I still have quite a bit of the 13 crop. It's been a buyers market in recent months but that will change eventually.....I hope anyway. The world market still seems to be saying that white honey is scarce. Retailing your own honey is doable for smaller commercial beekeepers and a good way to maximize your profits but there aren't enough hours in my day to even attempt it. I wouldn't criticize the pricing structures of any of them. From my perspective, MNbees seems to have a pretty good thing going there.


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## Barry

MNbees said:


> 5 bucks a pound retail is actually a lot. How could you ask more than that? In the store they selling for 6 or so.
> $10 a pound, are you trying to rip people off?


When I was in Door County a few weeks ago I always check out what local honey is selling for. $10 a pound? How about $18 for 11.6 ounces?


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## sqkcrk

clyderoad said:


> You are selling yourself and your product short at these prices.


Amen. But if he is happy, who is he hurting? Other than the market and other beekeeper's bottom line. But he is free to do what makes sense to him.


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## sqkcrk

rkereid said:


> It's really just supply and demand. The big producers have so much more honey than the hobbyists and sideliners, that they will run out of storage space before next year. The small producers usually work a local market. It's usually a different buyer.
> 
> Richard


Richard, do you price your honey so you sell it quickly? Or at a price which means you will have honey to sell all year round? How much money are we, as honey sellers, leaving on the table, loosing, by not pricing our honey as high as we possibly can? I have not found what the market will bear, yet. Has anyone? 

Has anyone priced honey at such a price that it wouldn't sell? If you let it sit on the store shelf long enough? Do we drive the market or does the market drive us?


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## sqkcrk

MNbees said:


> $10 a pound, are you trying to rip people off? There are alot of people in my area (twin cities) who ask to much for honey. As a result I sell way more. I deliver honey to the store at $4 per pound average, less as the size goes up. We retail 100k lbs per year and bottle every drop by hand. I am not a fan of people over pricing their honey because they sell/produce less.


How is charging any particular price cheating anyone? Buyers have choice. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head, making them buy something at an inflated price. It's Marketing. It's what the Market will bear. If you, MNbees, are happy w/ your price and your business, then no one can criticize you on that. But, you are leaving money on the table.

Just to be sure I understand you, MNbees, are you saying that you deliver honey to stores at $4.00 for one pound jars? Is that right? Is that similar to others in MN who bottle and sell wholesale?


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## sqkcrk

Barry said:


> When I was in Door County a few weeks ago I always check out what local honey is selling for. $10 a pound? How about $18 for 11.6 ounces?


Now that's marketing. I have seen Round Comb Honey Sections on a store shelf in CO w/ a $21.00 price tag on it. Crazy? Outrageous? Who can say? It's business people. Not charity. And you know darn well the producer didn't get half that money.

Do what makes you happy. And if it doesn't pay your Mortgage don't complain about it.


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## WBVC

My daughter was in an upscale super market yesterday and told be their natural honey was selling for $18.95 for 250 gm (half a pound). In that environment folks were buying it. The stores markup over the supplier is 120%.


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## Santa Caras

I dont anything about producing and selling honey at a commercial level. What I do know is, if whatever it is, is marketed at a low price, the consumer feels that it is below standards and may or may not buy it. One can market the same darn item or service at a much higher price and people feel they are getting a higher quality "whatever" and walk away happy. Theres no logic there, but it happens every day.


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## matt1954

I am in several farmers markets and about half a dozen stores in the DC area. We sell our honey at $10.00 a pound and we will still sell about 200-300 pounds per week retail from March until the end of October when we stop going to farmers markets. I get the full range of responses from cheap, to way too high. I also love the "counter offer culture" that comes by my tables. I don't reduce prices. If people knew the amount of work that is involved in keeping these businesses afloat, they wouldn't be making low ball offers.


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## rkereid

sqkcrk said:


> Richard, do you price your honey so you sell it quickly? Or at a price which means you will have honey to sell all year round? How much money are we, as honey sellers, leaving on the table, loosing, by not pricing our honey as high as we possibly can? I have not found what the market will bear, yet. Has anyone?
> 
> Has anyone priced honey at such a price that it wouldn't sell? If you let it sit on the store shelf long enough? Do we drive the market or does the market drive us?


Mark- One of my tenets in selling my honey has been to have honey for all the outlets that are selling it, all year long. We are in the mid atlantic region and our season is short and intense (in a good year). There is good production if you manage for that short window. Most beekeepers in VA (especially our part of the state, western mountains) are hobbyists and sideliners with very few (if any, though I could be wrong) commercial producers. Typically, the local honey supply begins around June and ends around Nov/Dec because everyone runs out. That's not great for people who really want local honey, and it's not great for small retailers who would like to have a consistent supply year round.

I am still a small sideliner and my emphasis for the last 6 years has been slow consistent expansion so I don't have huge amounts of honey. Many of my resources go into nucs and queenrearing each year, honey is the other part. So I only sell in 4 small retail outlets. My price has to be the sweet spot between too high and too low so I make some money, and don't sell out until I extract again in the spring. For me $9/lb inverted squeeze bottles, and $8/12 oz glass hex bottle is where the price has been for 4 years. My production is going up substantially so I may have to reconsider these prices or give more effort to sales. Mostly I'd rather be working bees so the price may come down.

Richard


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## rkereid

matt1954 said:


> If people knew the amount of work that is involved in keeping these businesses afloat, they wouldn't be making low ball offers.


Absolutely


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## jim lyon

matt1954 said:


> If people knew the amount of work that is involved in keeping these businesses afloat, they wouldn't be making low ball offers.


I think there is a disconnect here on the commercial forum. The guy getting criticized for low balling is a commercial producer with well over a thousand hives who has found a niche that works for him. Pretty sure he is aware of the work it takes to produce honey.


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## sqkcrk

rkereid said:


> My production is going up substantially so I may have to reconsider these prices or give more effort to sales. Mostly I'd rather be working bees so the price may come down.
> 
> Richard


Never, never, never lower your price, never. Did I say "never" too many times? If you haven't raised your prices in 4 years you should. Not doing so means you have been loosing some income, some profit.

Besides being in the beekeeping business you are in the honey selling business. It is business. Treat it like a business. That doesn't mean you have to loose anything character wise, ethics wise. If you don't keep your prices rising you are in effect going backwards while all of your other life expenses rise.


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## sqkcrk

jim lyon said:


> I think there is a disconnect here on the commercial forum. The guy getting criticized for low balling is a commercial producer with well over a thousand hives who has found a niche that works for him. Pretty sure he is aware of the work it takes to produce honey.


He knows what he is doing. It works for him. My only thought is that he may be depressing the market.


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## rkereid

sqkcrk said:


> Never, never, never lower your price, never. Did I say "never" too many times? If you haven't raised your prices in 4 years you should. Not doing so means you have been loosing some income, some profit.
> 
> Besides being in the beekeeping business you are in the honey selling business. It is business. Treat it like a business. That doesn't mean you have to loose anything character wise, ethics wise. If you don't keep your prices rising you are in effect going backwards while all of your other life expenses rise.


Mark- When I got back into this my honey prices were a little over most others. Now most of us around town are selling at the same price. My only concern right now is it is moving slowly enough that I may end up with more in the bottlers when I start extracting in the spring. So, yes, I do need to put more effort into marketing.


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## jim lyon

sqkcrk said:


> He knows what he is doing. It works for him. My only thought is that he may be depressing the market.


Perhaps, but my guess is the retailer knows the market and clientele he/she is targeting and prices it on the shelf accordingly. What sticks in my mind, though, is that mnbees is selling 100,000 pounds per year for an average price of $4.00 per lb. a little quick math says he's probably doing pretty well for himself. 
Everyone can find their niche. Barry showed an example of how to get a lot per lb. but my guess is they aren't selling a whole lot of lbs. Mnbees has showed how a commercial producer might be able to move a higher volume for a lower per lb. price yet still do pretty well for himself. When I compare it to the offers I have gotten, it sounds pretty good. There is no one size fits all.


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## beemandan

jim lyon said:


> There is no one size fits all.


Exactly right. I've used the business term ' value added' a number of times when talking about bees and honey. A keeper with a thousand hives can remove honey from them, extract it and put it in drums. He added value to it. In the hive it isn't worth a cent. In the drum...maybe $2.50/lb. He might bottle it...then a small grocery might pay $4/lb. He's added $1.50/lb value by bottling it. Then he may choose to take it to an upscale farmer's market where he can get $8/lb. Getting out of bed at 4AM on a Saturday morning, setting up at the market, talking to potential customers adds value. A beekeeper needs to choose whichever strategy fits best. Keep 5000 hives and selling in a drum is probably the only choice. Less than 1000 hives and drum or bottling are either options. Less than 500...and you can choose any. Or you can mix it up. Some of each. Whatever floats your boat. No one size fits all.


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## jim lyon

beemandan said:


> Exactly right. I've used the business term ' value added' a number of times when talking about bees and honey. A keeper with a thousand hives can remove honey from them, extract it and put it in drums. He added value to it. In the hive it isn't worth a cent. In the drum...maybe $2.50/lb. He might bottle it...then a small grocery might pay $4/lb. He's added $1.50/lb value by bottling it. Then he may choose to take it to an upscale farmer's market where he can get $8/lb. Getting out of bed at 4AM on a Saturday morning, setting up at the market, talking to potential customers adds value. A beekeeper needs to choose whichever strategy fits best. Keep 5000 hives and selling in a drum is probably the only choice. Less than 1000 hives and drum or bottling are either options. Less than 500...and you can choose any. Or you can mix it up. Some of each. Whatever floats your boat. No one size fits all.


As usual Dan "nails it". :thumbsup:


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## MNbees

sqkcrk said:


> How is charging any particular price cheating anyone? Buyers have choice. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head, making them buy something at an inflated price. It's Marketing. It's what the Market will bear. If you, MNbees, are happy w/ your price and your business, then no one can criticize you on that. But, you are leaving money on the table.
> 
> Just to be sure I understand you, MNbees, are you saying that you deliver honey to stores at $4.00 for one pound jars? Is that right? Is that similar to others in MN who bottle and sell wholesale?


Yes the most expensive size is the one pounder at just over $4 per lb. Are biggest seller is the 3 lb and that is $3.63 per lb. we also deliver bulk at $3.05 lb.
Also we produce all our own honey, we are not packers, we are beekeepers putting good honey on the shelf that people can afford and will buy. It really is not fair to price out regular folk. Families and people who eat a lot of honey are educated about good food dont buy their honey at farmers markets and pay though the roof. Those are the very folk that are keeping our domestic honey prices high. 
So i guess really we are on a totally different wave length.

You guys keep telling people you are selling special honey and thats why its so expensive, and then when you run out i can sell you a semi load in drums or totes. Honey is all the same, why does it cost different? There will always be those naive people and that should keep ya going. 
Sometimes our honey is on the the shelf right next to another brand that is literally my honey, and it costs more!!!


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## sqkcrk

MNbees, good for you. You are in a good position. I bet everything is paid for. And your business is probably a second or third generation family business. I could keep my prices what they were two or three years ago and never raise them too, I guess. But it seems to me as though my customers should subsidize my lifestyle, not me theirs. I'm sure there are people who might like to buy Squeak Creek Honey, but can't afford it. But I haven't noticed that to be a problem. Honey keeps turning over regularly.

I too sell honey that my bees produce, as well as some varietals that I buy from folks I know. 

"another brand that is literally my honey, and it costs more!!!" And I bet it sells well too, doesn't it?


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## Roland

I can support Barry's observations. Wisconsin Natural Acres brand honey is usually priced at 1 dollar an ounce. They claim to have special knowledge from an oldtimer on how to keep bees, and that is why theirs is so good. Now if they did not use any man made miticides, and where 6th generation beekeepers, I would find it more believable, but it appears the customer is happy with their products.

crazy Roland


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## Ben Little

I haven't actually sat down and thought about it too much but when a beekeeper bottles honey and labels it and distributes/peddles it to stores or markets etc... adding 1.50/pound doesn't really cover the bottle/label/labour/fuel does it? wouldn't receiving double the wholesale price be more fitting for a price (after discounting it to a reseller) ? I have come up with my price per pound of 7.00 and it is working for me. I guess I might have to sit down and calculate my costs all over again because everything goes up each year unfortunately .


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## sqkcrk

That's the business of beekeeping, isn't it Ben? What does it cost to make a barrel of honey and what does one have to sell it for in order to stay in business and then some. Other than the love of bees, what's the point of doing what we do if it isn't to profit from what we do?

I wholesale one pound jars of honey for $5.00 each 12 jars per case. $60.00 minus $1.20 for caps, minus $2.40 for labels, and minus $6.00 for jars leaves me w/ $50.40 for the 12 lbs of honey or $4.20/lb for the honey. I also wholesale 5 gallon totes at $4.00/lb. Look on the jar, the cap, and the labels as adding value.


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## beemandan

Ben Little said:


> ... adding 1.50/pound doesn't really cover the bottle/label/labour/fuel does it?


If this is in reference to my earlier post...my numbers are the price/lb of honey alone. Jars, labels and delivery are figured separately and added to the price ultimately charged. 
My point was that by adding those elements...the value of the honey itself has increased.
And, as with all such things, the actual prices will vary depending any number of local conditions.


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## Ben Little

sqkcrk said:


> That's the business of beekeeping, isn't it Ben? What does it cost to make a barrel of honey and what does one have to sell it for in order to stay in business and then some. Other than the love of bees, what's the point of doing what we do if it isn't to profit from what we do?
> 
> I wholesale one pound jars of honey for $5.00 each 12 jars per case. $60.00 minus $1.20 for caps, minus $2.40 for labels, and minus $6.00 for jars leaves me w/ $50.40 for the 12 lbs of honey or $4.20/lb for the honey. I also wholesale 5 gallon totes at $4.00/lb. Look on the jar, the cap, and the labels as adding value.


:thumbsup:
I use 7.00/lb and add the cost of jar/lid and label and that's my price, So my 1 Kg Jars of honey are 16.25. 500g jars are 8.50. 12 ounce squeezable containers are 6.00. I give different places different discounts depending on the volume they move and I think it works fine for me.


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## Ben Little

beemandan said:


> If this is in reference to my earlier post...my numbers are the price/lb of honey alone. Jars, labels and delivery are figured separately and added to the price ultimately charged.
> My point was that by adding those elements...the value of the honey itself has increased.
> And, as with all such things, the actual prices will vary depending any number of local conditions.


I totally agree, I was just referencing it. Only trying to figure out what a Beekeeping business would need to use as a formula to keep itself in business each year with profit of course 

I have spent hours going over costs each year and it changes a lot depending on so many different things. 
I am just trying to get a sense of what to do to keep us going from year to year because this is going to be our source of income very soon.
I do pollination, honey and candle/wax sales for now and in the coming years I will probably sell some nucs on top of that. I want to fine tune things so we make a living


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## MNbees

sqkcrk said:


> That's the business of beekeeping, isn't it Ben? What does it cost to make a barrel of honey and what does one have to sell it for in order to stay in business and then some. Other than the love of bees, what's the point of doing what we do if it isn't to profit from what we do?
> 
> I wholesale one pound jars of honey for $5.00 each 12 jars per case. $60.00 minus $1.20 for caps, minus $2.40 for labels, and minus $6.00 for jars leaves me w/ $50.40 for the 12 lbs of honey or $4.20/lb for the honey. I also wholesale 5 gallon totes at $4.00/lb. Look on the jar, the cap, and the labels as adding value.


Well those are fair prices, but you were saying $10 per lb and that is not. 
There are people that totally lie and are salesman who dont produce honey. Seems they are the ones asking $10-20 per lb. They always some BS reason why their honey is superior.

Second generation doesn't mean we make more money, it means my father yelled at me a lot when I was growing up. And luckily I learned from that.


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## Haraga

sqkcrk said:


> That's the business of beekeeping, isn't it Ben? What does it cost to make a barrel of honey and what does one have to sell it for in order to stay in business and then some. Other than the love of bees, what's the point of doing what we do if it isn't to profit from what we do.


I can think of a couple other reasons to run bees.


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## Ian

MNbees said:


> Second generation doesn't mean we make more money, it means my father yelled at me a lot when I was growing up. And luckily I learned from that.


 
and second generation/third generation sometimes mean looking on the other side of the fence to "do things better" not because things need changed but to change things up. Multi generational farms which succeed usually are the ones which adopt new ideas


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## sqkcrk

MNbees said:


> Well those are fair prices, but you were saying $10 per lb and that is not.
> 
> Second generation doesn't mean we make more money, it means my father yelled at me a lot when I was growing up. And luckily I learned from that.


You don't think that $10.00 is a fair retail price? Okay.

Your father yelled at you? I'm sorry to hear that.  Did you learn how to yell at your kids too? 

My point was that being a second generation business means that things are paid for which is a great position to be in. It affords you many experiences and advantages.

Seems like you are in a good place and have things figured out. Good.


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## sqkcrk

Haraga said:


> I can think of a couple other reasons to run bees.


Altruism is nice, but it doesn't put food on the table. But it does add things to life.


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## Haraga

Yes Mark. Altruism. I like that one. Just remember, what goes around,comes around.


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## sqkcrk

Haraga, I'm altruistic too. Beekeeping is more than just a way to make money, for me, it's a way of life for me. A lifestyle if you will. But if I could not, or when I can no longer, make money to support that lifestyle I would have to find another way to make a living wage. 

So to answer the question in the Thread title, yeah, people actually do make a living w/honey production. Many do other things w/their bees to produce income too.

"what goes around,comes around." Okay?


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## Angelo

sqkcrk said:


> So to answer the question in the Thread title, yeah, people actually do make a living w/honey production.


Mark,

How many hives (bee colonies) do you have now to "make a living w/honey production."?
And what is your net profit per hive?

*"In fact , one of our biggest oncoming problems—along with energy and unstable weather—is the vanishingly small number of young people making their living from bees."*
http://www.kirkwebster.com/index.php/a-new-paradigm-for-american-beekeepers

Angelo


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## loggermike

About 2nd generation beekeeping businesses: I have heard of some that ran the business into the ground pretty quickly. Others have held what dad started and expanded it .I am sure of one thing though, no matter what advantages they started with, no one can hold a bee business together without some pretty good business savvy, hard work and lots of common sense.


----------



## MNbees

loggermike said:


> About 2nd generation beekeeping businesses: I have heard of some that ran the business into the ground pretty quickly. Others have held what dad started and expanded it .I am sure of one thing though, no matter what advantages they started with, no one can hold a bee business together without some pretty good business savvy, hard work and lots of common sense.


My folks retired about 8 years ago. I have worked very hard to make sure they have a great retirement financially. 

When you are lucky enough to get a opportunity like I had the last thing you want to do is let down the very people that helped you.
I dont necessarily want to do it bigger but I want to adapt to the changing times and do it as best as possible. Simplicity is huge when you have as many irons in the fire as I do.
What ever way you want to look at it running 3k+ colonies with not enough help is allot of work.

Mark,
When you are a beekeeper and want to bee heard you must YELL! And I dont have kids yet.


----------



## sqkcrk

Angelo said:


> Mark,
> 
> How many hives (bee colonies) do you have now to "make a living w/honey production."?
> And what is your net profit per hive?
> 
> *"In fact , one of our biggest oncoming problems—along with energy and unstable weather—is the vanishingly small number of young people making their living from bees."*
> http://www.kirkwebster.com/index.php/a-new-paradigm-for-american-beekeepers
> 
> Angelo


Angelo, I run around 500 hives and don't make a living solely on honey production. I pollinate too.
Net profit per hive? Well, Angelo, if that is your real name. Maybe you would like to give me your full real name and your personal annual income first and then maybe I will tell you mine. In other words, getting kind of personal there.

As far as Kirk's statement, it has been that way a long time. By "young standards" I wasn't young when I started making a living through bees.


----------



## sqkcrk

loggermike said:


> no one can hold a bee business together without some pretty good business savvy, hard work and lots of common sense.


Amen Mike. I don't work at beekeeping as much as many of my friends do, but if one wonders about making a living with honey production one had better know how to run a business and run it well. Many wish to keep bees. Not so many want to run bees as a business.


----------



## sqkcrk

MNbees said:


> My folks retired about 8 years ago. I have worked very hard to make sure they have a great retirement financially.
> 
> When you are lucky enough to get a opportunity like I had the last thing you want to do is let down the very people that helped you.
> I dont necessarily want to do it bigger but I want to adapt to the changing times and do it as best as possible. Simplicity is huge when you have as many irons in the fire as I do.
> What ever way you want to look at it running 3k+ colonies with not enough help is allot of work.
> 
> Mark,
> When you are a beekeeper and want to bee heard you must YELL! And I dont have kids yet.


I'm sure of that, what w/ trucks and skidsteer loaders and extracting equipment. OSHA would have us wearing hearing protection a lot of the time. I guess I didn't take that into consideration when replying to your previous comment about getting yelled at. I meant no disrespect to your Father.

So is your Father no longer involved in the bees? Does he miss it much?


----------



## Angelo

sqkcrk said:


> Angelo, I run around 500 hives *and don't make a living solely on honey production.* ...
> *Net profit per hive?* *Well.*..


So, actually you are unable to prove your previous statement "*people actually do make a living w/honey production.*"

Angelo


----------



## sqkcrk

Seems to me that the only ones who need an answer to the question and demand proof of it are in the wrong Forum. This is the Commercial Forum after all. Those who this Forum was designed for already know the answer. And maybe for those aspiring to be commercial. 

If MNBees isn't proof enough what can I say?


----------



## jim lyon

Angelo said:


> So, actually you are unable to prove your previous statement "*people actually do make a living w/honey production.*"
> 
> Angelo


Your serious? You don't believe their is commercial honey production in the US?? Shhhh, don't tell my wife.


----------



## JohnK and Sheri

Angelo, this is getting a bit ridiculous. No one here is trying to prove anything to anyone, and certainly not to someone with not a clue about the US beekeeping industry. No one here should feel compelled to prove anything to anyone. This is a discussion board, not an IRS audit. 
If you look at the heading of this forum, it is the commercial beekeeping/pollination board, and is here for those indeed making a living from bees (or wanting to) to come together to discuss different aspects of the business. There is not some huge conspiracy trying to convince the gullible public that there is money to be made. Many of the posters on this board have been making their living from honey production, pollination or the sales of bees for generations. I know many of them personally. While John and I are now (almost) retired, we lived exclusively on our bees for more than 30 years and they have provided us with a comfortable retirement. 
If you find this so hard to believe perhaps you have personal issues keeping your own bees alive or controlling other expenses and should direct your questions in those directions, in the appropriate basic beekeeping forums.. 
Sheri



Angelo said:


> So, actually you are unable to prove your previous statement "*people actually do make a living w/honey production.*"
> 
> Angelo


----------



## sqkcrk

:thumbsup: Thank you Sheri. Well stated. Maybe I should have waited.


----------



## MNbees

sqkcrk said:


> I'm sure of that, what w/ trucks and skidsteer loaders and extracting equipment. OSHA would have us wearing hearing protection a lot of the time. I guess I didn't take that into consideration when replying to your previous comment about getting yelled at. I meant no disrespect to your Father.
> 
> So is your Father no longer involved in the bees? Does he miss it much?


no he is not involved, he couldn't stand a lot of it anymore, now i think he does miss it a little but is not physically able.


----------



## clyderoad

MNbees said:


> Well those are fair prices, but you were saying $10 per lb and that is not.
> There are people that totally lie and are salesman who dont produce honey. Seems they are the ones asking $10-20 per lb. They always some BS reason why their honey is superior.
> 
> Second generation doesn't mean we make more money, it means my father yelled at me a lot when I was growing up. And luckily I learned from that.


I produce honey, don't lie and charge $10+. No BS
May be hard to comprehend but there are many locations where $10/lb is the going price. Some places it's more.
Anything less and potential buyers think something's wrong with it.
They buy $5/lb honey in the big grocery stores not from the local beekeeper.


----------



## Ian

Angelo said:


> So, actually you are unable to prove your previous statement "*people actually do make a living w/honey production.*"
> 
> Angelo


Honey production is all we have to support us up here, works for us!


----------



## Roland

Ian wrote;

Multi generational farms which succeed usually are the ones which adopt new ideas .

Being a 5th gen. commercial beekeeper, I can agree, and disagree with Ian. 

My father developed the bee blower, which was later marketed thru Dadant. Yes, it was a new idea, and was an adaptation to a dislike of benzaldehyde. My son and I, when faced with CCD, had to devise a CHEAP way to disinfect dead out equipment. 

I disagree when it comes to inherited knowledge. To continue earning a livelihood, it is very important NOT to make critical errors, and inherited knowledge often steers you away from some of the pitfalls(new ideas) that might trap a neophyte.

Crazy Roland
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


----------



## Ian

The word I like to use is _progressive _


----------



## Roland

OK, we will try to be antiquated AND progressive at the same time.

The fundamental ways that bees operate has not changed in our 162 years, but the pathogen and ad poison scene seems to change every other week. So yes, is it imperative to stay on top of the changing world and institute creative solutions. It is easy to see how CCD would have been out death knell without improvisation.

Crazy, trying to be progressive, Roland


----------



## Ian

Roland said:


> Crazy, trying to be progressive, Roland


Gee Roland, did I hit a sore spot? 

My original though, "Multi generational farms which succeed usually are the ones which adopt new ideas ." was more so implying that farm business tend to hang themselves because the older generation tends not to loose grip on control (grain and cattle farms anyway). Its important to have youth integrate into the business. I'm sure every commercial beekeeper here has or is doing exactly that and seeing the benefits paid back in dividends.


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## Haraga

"Multi generational farms which succeed usually are the ones which adopt new ideas "

I would say that they succeed by not pissing away money faster than it is coming in. Debt is the farm and ranch killer.


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## JSL

There is a great deal of value in wisdom and hard earned knowledge gained over generations. Building on that wisdom and knowledge enables "forward progress" for future generations. Perhaps being progressive is simply finding a new way to make an old system work again. After all, they are still just bees in a box. How hard can that be?


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## Haraga

Great post JSL. It applies to so many things in life also.


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## chillardbee

jwhiteker said:


> Honey Householder, if I can get my bees to make 100+ lbs. then yes, I can see positive numbers.


In that regard, it comes down to locations. An old saying goes like this- A bad beekeeper will make honey in good locations and good beekeeper will make none in a bad location. But I like to think that a good beekeeper will know the importance of good locations.


----------



## mgolden

chillardbee said:


> In that regard, it comes down to locations. An old saying goes like this- A bad beekeeper will make honey in good locations and good beekeeper will make none in a bad location. But I like to think that a good beekeeper will know the importance of good locations.


???? How about "A bad beekeeper won't make honey in a good location and a good beekeeper will make honey in a bad location"


----------



## Roland

Ian - no sore spot, just trying to acknowledge my inherent genetic (stubborn German) limitations. Besides, I can only be half-mad at you, ja wohl?

Yes, location is very important, and proper site selection has been ingrained in me by my forebearers. To prove Ian right, selection has changed slightly to one of mostly open sun from one of mostly shade.. 

Can a good beekeeper make honey on a bad location? Some years maybe, but keeping bees alive in a bad location seems like the tougher row to hoe. We inherited a yard in a swampy location(did not listen to Grandpa) that never seems to carry it's weight. yes, they have made hone, but at what cost?

Crazy Roland


----------



## chillardbee

mgolden said:


> ???? How about "A bad beekeeper won't make honey in a good location and a good beekeeper will make honey in a bad location"


When I say location, I mean the over all area of forage available for a nectar flow. It doesn't matter how good a beekeeper you are if you have bees in an area that doesn't have flora to support a surplus flow.

That saying has been around for a long time, well before the mites entered the picture.


----------



## Ian

Roland said:


> can only be half-mad at you, ja wohl?
> 
> ....To prove Ian right,


----------



## The Honey Householder

I don't run the operation like my Dad did.:scratch: I'm a honey producer first.k:


----------



## Angelo

sqkcrk said:


> Amen Mike. I don't work at beekeeping as much as many of my friends do, *but if one wonders about making a living with honey production one had better know how to run a business and run it well.* Many wish to keep bees. *Not so many want to run bees as a business*.


1. To support Kirk Webster's statement (post#115) I would recommend to read this official report:
"Overall, according to commercial beekeepers, 2014 has been a very disappointing year from the honey production stand point in Minnesota."...
"Expectations for a great honey crop in 2014 have just not
materialized. Many beekeepers have only been able to pull 30 to 40 pounds of honey per colony this season."...
"As a result of the drought, beekeepers expect less honey production and California grown honey may be harder to find in coming months. Formal estimates haven’t been released, but individual beekeepers report they expect their honey production to drop by half to three quarters or more. The
drought has reduced the native plants and crops from which bees collect pollen. Beekeepers are providing supplemental feed for their hives but say honey production will suffer...
and so one.
http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/fvmhoney.pdf

2. In my opinion, this is not a good example for a normal living: "Brasher man maintains 800 bee hives, produces 30,000 pounds of honey a year" - *minus expenses!*
http://northcountrynow.com/business...hives-produces-30000-pounds-honey-year-030604

Mark, why you have just 500 colonies now, but not 800?
Is your business less profitable now?

Angelo


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## jim lyon

http://skamberg.com/honey.htm


U.S.A. - The 2014 U.S. honey crop is still coming in, and although final numbers won’t be available for a while, crop projections are at around 170 to 175 million lbs. Abundant clover and good weather conditions in the upper Mid-West have combined to give us what could be the best U.S. honey crop in the last 4 years. The demand for this honey is at an all-time high, and this honey crop should sell out early at prices comparable to last years’ record high prices.


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## loggermike

>> individual beekeepers report they expect their honey production to drop by half to three quarters or more. The
drought has reduced the native plants and crops from which bees collect pollen.<<

I cant speak for others, but the above statement is true for my area of CA. Bees have been on 'life support' since July here.Its depressing to say the least.


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## sqkcrk

Does a sentence about "plants and crops from which bees collect pollen" in between two sentences about "honey production" seem to anyone like someone thinks that honey comes from pollen and not nectar?


----------



## jim lyon

I feel your pain Mike, we have had a number of years like that as well. The question posed in the thread, however, is "are there people who actually make a living with honey production" and the answer, of course, is yes. Obviously not everyone in every year will make a profit. Honey production is pretty much all I have done for the past 40 years through the good years and the bad. Almond pollination money is a something new to us and a relative blip on the screen in the big picture.


----------



## loggermike

Of course you are right ,Jim. I should have read the whole thread rather than just jumping in. Saw a chance to whine a little,lol. 

Mark, those gov reports are sometimes funny. I read it every month and sometimes I have to shake my head at the wording.


----------



## nater37

I have just 11 hives (hive body and 3 supers), but I built most my supers and bought all my frames, foundation, QE's, top and bottom boards, covers and feeders and just have $255 a hive including bees. That does not include the lumber I bought for the hive stands, but it was less than $150


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## The Honey Householder

The last 1000 super order I bought cost me $17,550 delivered. Still had to put them together, but that is what you have kids for. There is a big pricing different between comm. and hobbyists equipment.


----------



## DPBsbees

The Honey Householder said:


> The last 1000 super order I bought cost me $17,550 delivered. Still had to put them together, but that is what you have kids for. There is a big pricing different between comm. and hobbyists equipment.


Are your numbers correct? I just paid $130 for 10 deeps delivered, and could have bought 1000 for $13,000 delivered.


----------



## The Honey Householder

That price is with the 10 frames and box. The last deeps I bought cost me $22 each, but that price is with frames too. What good is boxes without frames.:scratch:


----------



## Angelo

Let's be realistic.
How many new beekeepers could afford a purchasing of 1000 hives plus huge operational expenses like below?
The answer is *not too many*.



The Honey Householder said:


> I start out every year from scratch, so this is somewhat easier for me.
> Load of HFCS is $11K
> Load of packages & Extra Queens $35K
> Truck, Fuel, Insurance $15K
> Extracting, and hired labor $24K
> Misc. Expanses $17K
> Total Expenses $102K
> Total Honey 48 ton @ $3300 a ton $158K:
> Yearly income $56K
> I made about $70 a hive. ONLY NEED ANOTHER 1000 hives this year. This was one of my best years. Keep that price of honey up.


 http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?234054-Per-Hive-Income

And it's almost impossible to find a loan for this risky business.
Do not even try to show the above posted calculation to any bank!
Therefore I agree with this statement:
"In fact , one of our biggest oncoming problems—along with energy and unstable weather—*is the vanishingly small number of young people making their living from bees*."
http://www.kirkwebster.com/index.php...can-beekeepers

Angelo


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## Eduardo Gomes

"Total Honey 48 ton @ $3300 a ton $158K"

This year in Portugal bulk prices came to € 4.10 a kg = € 4 100 a ton = $ 5 155 a ton


----------



## jim lyon

Angelo said:


> Let's be realistic.
> How many new beekeepers could afford a purchasing of 1000 hives plus huge operational expenses like below?
> The answer is *not too many*.
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?234054-Per-Hive-Income
> 
> And it's almost impossible to find a loan for this risky business.
> Do not even try to show above posted calculation to any bank!
> 
> Angelo


Yes, as in any business venture it takes money to make money. If you have no equity its going to be pretty difficult to get started. Thats not the honey production business.....thats just business. If you are looking for something with 0 dollars down and a guaranteed profit, you better keep looking.


----------



## sqkcrk

Angelo said:


> Let's be realistic.
> Angelo


Being realistic, it isn't something everyone is cut out to do and at which to be successful. It isn't for the faint of heart or those who don't have a willingness to stick to it when times are tough and the extras in life are scarce or have to be sacrificed to keep going.

If you want an instant return go to the Casino. Angelo, your attitude is too negative to be cut out for this business. Maybe you'd better keep to the hobby level where what ever else you do can support your bee habit. Don't take that as me being snotty or mean, I'm just calling it like I see it.


----------



## The Honey Householder

WOW someone putted up a 2009 expense to income that I posted. The #'s for 2014 aren't all in, but I would say it's better to be a honey producer in 2014 then 2009.

In 5 years things have changed a lot. Packages have doubled and honey has almost doubled in price. Number are bigger, but not always better.:scratch:

All I can say, it's about time the honey producer makes as much as the packers (50/50 split):applause:


Started working the bees when I was 8 years old. I now have 3 boys that help, just hope one takes over where I leave off.:gh:


----------



## The Honey Householder

Eduardo Gomes said:


> "Total Honey 48 ton @ $3300 a ton $158K"
> 
> This year in Portugal bulk prices came to € 4.10 a kg = € 4 100 a ton = $ 5 155 a ton


2014 crop sold for $5,500 a ton. 
2009 crop sold for $3,300 a ton.


----------



## clyderoad

Angelo said:


> Let's be realistic.
> How many new beekeepers could afford a purchasing of 1000 hives plus huge operational expenses like below?
> The answer is *not too many*.
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?234054-Per-Hive-Income
> 
> And it's almost impossible to find a loan for this risky business.
> Do not even try to show the above posted calculation to any bank!
> Therefore I agree with this statement:
> "In fact , one of our biggest oncoming problems—along with energy and unstable weather—*is the vanishingly small number of young people making their living from bees*."
> http://www.kirkwebster.com/index.php...can-beekeepers
> 
> Angelo


Old business men go out and spend that kind of money nowdays on a new honey startup complete with all the bells and whistles. Most everyone else with any sense starts small and grows it from there. After the first few years the business grows in leaps every year if you know what you're doing and work at it.

I see many, many younger begining beekeepers at every meeting I attend. And every workshop given by the self annointed master bee experts that have popped up in the last 5 years is full of young interested potential beeks. At no time since I have been keeping bees has more young people shown a interest in beekeeping. I don't know what Webster is talking about, many of these young people are well on their way to making a living with bees or at the very least supplementing their incomes. Or maybe he doesn't know.


----------



## jim lyon

I always have to laugh when I hear someone talk about how difficult it is to get started beekeeping in part because of the high cost of bees. Dont beekeepers raise bees? Isnt it a good thing for bees to be valuable?


----------



## Eduardo Gomes

The Honey Householder said:


> Those are not going prices. Those are sold out prices. 12-15 ton is like a costumer in wholesale.


I apologize to you but I did not understand the answer . Can you explain that again . Thank you .


----------



## The Honey Householder

Eduardo Gomes said:


> I apologize to you but I did not understand the answer . Can you explain that again . Thank you .


Sorry I'm just a honey producer that has learn to market my own product, even it is to small beekeepers for an above avg. $$$. on the wholesale market.( something that didn't happen over night). It was the foreign markets back in the 90's that make me look for a different outlet to sell my honey. By doing so I took business from the packers that didn't want to pay a fair price.


----------



## sqkcrk

Angelo said:


> "In fact , one of our biggest oncoming problems—along with energy and unstable weather—*is the vanishingly small number of young people making their living from bees*."
> http://www.kirkwebster.com/index.php...can-beekeepers
> 
> Angelo


What is an "oncoming problem"? Is that a Vermont term of which I am not familiar?

I imagine that Kirk gets to more meetings each year than I do. He has to generate some extra income from somewhere, I guess. But this Friday and Saturday we will see if his assessment runs true at the Fall Meeting of the Empire State Honey Producers Association where the theme is Growing from Sideliner to Commercial". I'll let you know what I see in a couple of days. 

Over the last 30 years there are always more old timers than younger folks. Yet the beat goes on.


----------



## clyderoad

sqkcrk said:


> What is an "oncoming problem"? Is that a Vermont term of which I am not familiar?
> 
> I imagine that Kirk gets to more meetings each year than I do. He has to generate some extra income from somewhere, I guess. But this Friday and Saturday we will see if his assessment runs true at the Fall Meeting of the Empire State Honey Producers Association where the theme is Growing from Sideliner to Commercial". I'll let you know what I see in a couple of days.
> 
> Over the last 30 years there are always more old timers than younger folks. Yet the beat goes on.


Last week I went to buy a 40 hive apiary where the owner wanted out. Another guy was there to buy it as well, 30 years my junior.
I put a value on it and told the owner, the young guy did as well. He bought the apiary with his bid, about 20% more than my bid.
I asked him what his plan was and he's growing from 20 hives now plus the 40 into a 60 hive operation for himself and wife for their livelihood. 
He got his experience by starting as a backyard beekeeper.


----------



## sqkcrk

We all start somewhere. Or don't.


----------



## deknow

There were a lot fewer young beekeepers at meetings in 2008...which is when kirk wrote that.


----------



## clyderoad

"In fact , one of our biggest oncoming problems—along with energy and unstable weather—is the vanishingly small number of young people making their living from bees."

Sure missed one of the biggest trends in beekeeping in a long, long time.


----------



## Angelo

sqkcrk said:


> Being realistic, it isn't something...


What about your 500 bee colonies versus your 800 bee colonies? See my previous post #142.
Why you lost so many colonies and still did not replace your losses?


We cannot ignore some real problems. For example, there is no place for a new beekeeper to buy 1000 healthy bee colonies. 
“There’s going to be a shortage of bees in this entire growing season,” Frazier said of the U.S. situation. “*The ability to replace bees that have been lost has been exhausted*, so there’s a very large question mark about next year. Whether we’ve reached a point of no return, we don’t know.” 
http://e360.yale.edu/feature/declining_bee_populations_pose_a_threat_to_global_agriculture/2645/

Angelo


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Angelo said:


> For example, there is no place for a new beekeeper to buy 1000 healthy bee colonies.


Perhaps you ought to do just a little bit of research before you make such _silly _statements .... 


For instance, here is a listing in the Beesource _For Sale_ area for 800 hives:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?295487-600-singles-for-sale

200 more ...
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?304666-200-double-deeps-immediately-for-sale

another 200 ...
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?304461-200-singles-for-sale-in-South-Florida

So far, we're up to 1200 hives, and that is just 3 listings on Beesource, _easily_ found! :lpf:

.


----------



## Angelo

The Honey Householder said:


> WOW someone putted up a 2009 expense to income that I posted. The #'s for 2014 aren't all in, *but I would say it's better to be a honey producer in 2014 then 2009*...


Could you show us your most updated calculation, please.

Angelo


----------



## grozzie2

Angelo said:


> For example, there is no place for a new beekeeper to buy 1000 healthy bee colonies.


That's what the press would like you to believe, but, I personally know of more than one place to buy a thousand colonies. At the recent AGM of our local honey producers association, there was an interesting presentation by a beekeeper operating roughly a hundred miles from where I live. He is in the business of producing bees, and selling nucs by the thousands. If I really want a thousand colonies next spring, I'm quite confident they are only a phone call (and a sizeable cheque) away. And I live in an area where beekeeping is NOT a big business. I talked to multiple keepers at that AGM who have colony numbers in the multiples of thousands, and any one of them would be happy to sell a thousand if the price is right.

ofc, if you want to buy a thousand colonies on the cheap, that'll be a whole different story, bees are a valuable commodity these days. I think most here would agree, that is a good thing, not a bad thing. 

But, starting an 'instant' thousand colony operation has other issues. Finding the bees, that's the easy part, a problem that can be cured by simply throwing the correct amount of money at it. A much harder problem, where to put a thousand colonies so they can be productive. That's a problem that cant be easily cured by simply throwing some money at it. That one involves developing relationships with landowners that have good bee forage, and most of the good spots are already taken by somebody else.


----------



## Angelo

Rader Sidetrack said:


> ...For instance, here is a listing in the Beesource For Sale area for 800 hives...
> So far, we're up to 1200 hives, and that is just 3 listings on Beesource,


In fact, your statements are incorrect and useless. 
I did not say "bee colonies with old hives". See your links more carefully - numbers too (600, but not 800 as you stated).

Angelo


----------



## jim lyon

Angelo, I suggest you re-read post #124 and quit trying to convince a group of commercial beekeepers that what they are doing can't be done. I would suggest you head over to the CCD forum which Barry created specifically for folks who buy into all the "sky is falling talk". People on here are more concerned about success than failure.


----------



## beeware10

last weekend we stopped at the pa state meeting on the way back from sc. brett adee was the speaker. his family is operating 80,000 hives. he seems to be making a living. lol


----------



## Allen Martens

jim lyon said:


> quit trying to convince a group of commercial beekeepers that what they are doing can't be done.


lol isn't that the truth.


----------



## deknow

...that was written in April 2013. The question about "next year" has been answered.




Angelo said:


> What about your 500 bee colonies versus your 800 bee colonies? See my previous post #142.
> Why you lost so many colonies and still did not replace your losses?
> 
> 
> We cannot ignore some real problems. For example, there is no place for a new beekeeper to buy 1000 healthy bee colonies.
> “There’s going to be a shortage of bees in this entire growing season,” Frazier said of the U.S. situation. “*The ability to replace bees that have been lost has been exhausted*, so there’s a very large question mark about next year. Whether we’ve reached a point of no return, we don’t know.”
> http://e360.yale.edu/feature/declining_bee_populations_pose_a_threat_to_global_agriculture/2645/
> 
> Angelo


----------



## sqkcrk

Angelo said:


> What about your 500 bee colonies versus your 800 bee colonies? See my previous post #142.
> Why you lost so many colonies and still did not replace your losses?
> 
> We cannot ignore some real problems.
> Angelo


Angelo, the simple answer is that I have not worked as hard as I can to replace the losses I have experienced. I went from 732 in May 2005 down to 432 by October 2005 and down to 100 by may 2006. I built back up to over 500 in a couple of years and since I am getting older and I am making more per hive than before and I work 95% by myself I don't want any more than something between 500 and 600 during any one year.

The limitations are mine, not the bees or the ability to replace them or the lack of younger beekeepers in beekeeping. Not to discount what Maryanne wrote or said. And that was over a year ago and based on what she knew then. She may well say something different today. 

I would say that we are past, or at least getting out of, the CCD era. Things are looking up. This is a modern day Golden Age of Beekeeping. If a commercial beekeeper can't make money today it's most likely his own fault. You got to be willing to work as hard as your bees, if not harder.


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## The Honey Householder

Angelo said:


> Could you show us your most updated calculation, please.
> 
> Angelo


What are you writing a BOOK???? Might look back at post 27.

1000 hives and it's still an out of control hobby.

Really no money to be made with honey. Move along.:digging::digging:


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## The Honey Householder

Wow!!! someone say shortage in BEES. Just talked to my suppler and he said NO SHORTAGES. 

FACT PLEASE! Were is all this non cent coming from.


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## mbc

The Honey Householder said:


> Wow!!! someone say shortage in BEES. Just talked to my suppler and he said NO SHORTAGES.
> 
> FACT PLEASE! Were is all this non cent coming from.


Derby UK


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## RAK

Angelo,

There's over 30,000 hives for sale in ABJ.


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## sqkcrk

Angelo, what do you do for a living? Do you make money at it? How much?


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## Vance G

Bees are actually pretty cheap coming off the almonds. It i were a younger man I would buy a thousand and make a fair honey crop Lord willing and sell them to someone so he can put them on the almonds. There is gold in them thar hills. I am just too stove up to swing the pick.


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## Angelo

The Honey Householder said:


> Wow!!! someone say shortage in BEES. Just talked to my suppler and he said NO SHORTAGES.
> 
> *FACT PLEASE!* Were is all this non cent coming from.


For "mbc"*
Honeybee shortage threatens crop pollination in Europe*
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25656283

and for you
"Losses remain above the level that beekeepers consider economically sustainable. This year, almost two-thirds of the beekeepers responding to the survey reported losses greater than the 18.9 percent level that beekeepers say is acceptable."
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2014/140515.htm

*Local beekeeper stung by honey bee shortage, and you could be next*
http://wqad.com/2014/06/23/buzz-over-bee-shortage-gets-federal-funding/

DAVIS--California almond growers may not have enough honey bees to pollinate this year’s crop of 800,000 acres, says Extension apiculturist Eric Mussen of the UC Davis Department of Entomology. He attributes the difficulty to winter losses and less populous hives.
“We need 1.6 million colonies, or two colonies per acre, and California has only about 500,000 colonies that can be used for that purpose,” he said. “We need to bring in a million more colonies but due to the winter losses, we may not have enough bees.”...
*Already brokers are getting calls from beekeepers saying “I can’t fulfill the contract. I’m going to be short...*
Many beekeeping operations truck in thousands of colonies to pollinate California’s almonds. One beekeeping operation used to bring 16,000 colonies, Mussen said, “*but that 16,000 could be half that this year*.” "
http://entomology.ucdavis.edu/News/Troubling_Honey_Bee_Shortage_in_California_Almond_Orchards/

The Bottom Line (based on all my arguments) - the chance to make a living "with honey production" for new beekeepers is close to zero.

Bye. See you next year.

Angelo


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## jim lyon

I've never understood how an arbitrary requirement for a million and a half hives to average 8 frames of bees on February 1st in California can be a yardstick for national colony health. What's being demanded by almond growers in recent years is unprecedented and by any previous beekeeping standard, unrealistic. I find it a real testament to the American beekeeping industry that it's even achievable. 
Nice to see you back Victor.


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## JohnK and Sheri

If you quit feeding the troll he will go away.


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## mbc

JohnK and Sheri said:


> If you quit feeding the troll he will go away.


But it would be a travesty if a potential new beekeeper were to read such nonsense going unchallenged and therefore believing it.


Angelo said:


> The Bottom Line (based on all my arguments) - the chance to make a living "with honey production" for new beekeepers is close to zero.


Bees remain a sound investment, look after them and they will look after you, as true today as it ever was.


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## babybee

I think there are fewer young beekeepers now because the numbers to get in on a smaller scale are so large. Back in the day most bee outfits were sold on contract. Maybe as long as a 10 year contract. But today, I think you will be hard pressed to find a beekeeper willing to take that risk. I often sell bees in the spring for half down half after the honey is sold. Sometimes a third down third after the honey is sold and the remaining third after pollination. But I usually need to get rid of lots of bees. Every years is different. If someone sold their bee outfit today for 10 percent down and the guy buying simply got behind on his fall mite treatment then it's lights out. And without bees in the boxes it's hard to make money.


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## clyderoad

mbc said:


> But it would be a travesty if a potential new beekeeper were to read such nonsense going unchallenged and therefore believing it.
> 
> 
> Bees remain a sound investment, look after them and they will look after you, as true today as it ever was.


Jlyon: It seems one character disappears and two more show up.
JohnK and Sheri: nope, they never go away on their own accord.
mbc: Agree on both accounts.


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## clyderoad

babybee said:


> I think there are fewer young beekeepers now because the numbers to get in on a smaller scale are so large. Back in the day most bee outfits were sold on contract. Maybe as long as a 10 year contract. But today, I think you will be hard pressed to find a beekeeper willing to take that risk. I often sell bees in the spring for half down half after the honey is sold. Sometimes a third down third after the honey is sold and the remaining third after pollination. But I usually need to get rid of lots of bees. Every years is different. If someone sold their bee outfit today for 10 percent down and the guy buying simply got behind on his fall mite treatment then it's lights out. And without bees in the boxes it's hard to make money.


Good post bb, you're right.
Just recently I tried to negotiate a deal for 40 hives w/ bees. Seller didn't even want to hear any of the proposals I worked up. Another guy bought them paid in full.
What I have been doing is buying used woodenware from people who thought they'd like to keep bees but found it wasn't for them or they never learned how to care for them. There is a ton of 2 year old stuff out there to buy in very good shape with so many people giving up their new hobby. Takes some work getting them to realize the worth of the stuff though, they want catalog prices!
I fill up the used stuff in the spring with splits. It's enabled me to grow while keeping the costs down.


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## BeeGhost

I am a very small sideliner with big aspirations, or at least bigger aspirations! With almond pollination prices double what they were less than a decade ago and honey almost four times as much as it was even a few years ago, how can someone NOT make money with bees?? By being a bad business man or some just plain extremely bad luck. As was stated already, "take care of your bees and they will take care of you", just by tweaking feeding regimes and times and mite treatment and timings can see huge reductions in winter losses. Talk to the older commercial guys, things are tougher since Varroa, but prices of different aspects of their product have also come up. Just like any business, if you work hard at what you love and adapt to changes, you will succeed.

I know a few commercial guys that make a living with honey AS THE ONLY source of income off their bees, and then others who diversify and make packages, pollinate, broker, raise queens and so on.


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## sqkcrk

If you all had been at our meeting here in Syracuse, NY today you would have some idea about what it takes.


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## Ian

I started my first years of beekeeping with honey prices trading for 75cents. Since the price of honey started trading for 1.5 and higher my operation expansion has been swift. If the price were to drop back down to those levels I think many beekeepers would be scratching. Especially running winter losses of 20% and higher.

I think the term is " easy money"


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## The Honey Householder

Hey Ian,

2014 crop is a lot of easier money then 2013.

2014 came in at an avg. of 131 lb.:thumbsup:
2013 crop was 57 lb avg. ( the worst crop I've seen in 27 years.)
2010 crop was 196 lb avg.( best I've ever seen).:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Really you have to take the good with the bad. 6 year avg. 123 lbs.:thumbsup:


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## Ian

The Honey Householder said:


> Really you have to take the good with the bad.


I call it surviving til the next season


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## Honey-4-All

The Honey Householder said:


> Really you have to take the good with the bad. 6 year avg. 123 lbs.:thumbsup:


With an average like that I bet you must have a hundred beeks knocking at your door to share crop!


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## Brian Suchan

There prolly isnt that many beeks looking into ohio. Better watchout hh all the cali guys will be shiping bees your way. He might just be a great beekeper in the secluded or small area he is in.


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## The Honey Householder

Ohio is to far east unless you are coming out of the South and that is still 800-1300 miles. I extracted for 2 other comm. operation last year, and still finished up before Oct. Most days my extracting crew was done and cleaned up by 1 pm. Honey ships out every friday, so the warehouse stays workable. Haven't had to stack barrels in the parking lot yet.


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## dleemc1

hey gone2seed, I still have some of those plastic bottom boards also, just cant wear them out.


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## Ian

jim lyon said:


> Nice to see you back Victor.


Did we find more background noise?


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## gone2seed

dleemc1 said:


> hey gone2seed, I still have some of those plastic bottom boards also, just cant wear them out.


 Yep. That's the only good thing I can say about them. They are almost indestructible. The telescoping tops are good for sitting full supers on in the honey house. I even had some hive bodies made of that stuff. They were junk because they warped out of square, (there must be a word for that),and became unusable.


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## shinbone

I am just a hobbyist working my dozen-odd hive for fun after my regular job. I have a friend who is a commercial beek working about 600 hives by himself. He sells honey, goes to the almonds, sells bees, raises and sells queens. He works every angle to squeeze every possible penny out of his hives. He does okay financially, but works really really hard. And I mean really hard all day every day. The profession has its rewards, but you don't go into it for easy money. 

I always chuckle to myself when I see a post by someone who has a decent job with decent pay wanting to get into bees because they think it will be a step up career-wise. Little do they know they are jumping from the pan into the fire. The grass is always greener . . .


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## papabear

my third year also. I have not made one dime so far. but I have sold thousands of dollars of other beeks honey at 10 dollars a pound.don't know about you but I am hooked.My plan is to have something to do when I retire other than fish . hope to make a few bucks to put gas in boat.
my only regret is starting hive management so late in life.
I have got to get at least 1 child interested or at least live long enough to be a burden on them. [ lol ]


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## Eduardo Gomes

shinbone said:


> I have a friend who is a commercial beek working about 600 hives by himself. He sells honey, goes to the almonds, sells bees, raises and sells queens. He works every angle to squeeze every possible penny out of his hives. He does okay financially, but works really really hard. And I mean really hard all day every day. The profession has its rewards, but you don't go into it for easy money.


600 hives for just one person is tremendous. It is true that the conditions for me are different, but not everything is different. In Portugal given that much of the field work is concentrated in the months from March to September I would say that it is almost impossible to properly manage 600 hives alone.


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## sqkcrk

papabear said:


> my third year also. I have not made one dime so far. but I have sold thousands of dollars of other beeks honey at 10 dollars a pound.don't know about you but I am hooked.My plan is to have something to do when I retire other than fish . hope to make a few bucks to put gas in boat.
> my only regret is starting hive management so late in life.
> I have got to get at least 1 child interested or at least live long enough to be a burden on them. [ lol ]


What did you pay for that $10.00 honey and didn't make a dime?


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## Cristian

Eduardo Gomes said:


> 600 hives for just one person is tremendous. It is true that the conditions for me are different, but not everything is different. In Portugal given that much of the field work is concentrated in the months from March to September I would say that it is almost impossible to properly manage 600 hives alone.


Indeed , same as here . We have few commercial guys here that have that number but if thay have it , are 3-4 guys that are make the job plus that the bees need to be moved from flow to flow not stationary and other members of family may be implicated when is needed . In Portugal you move the hives from flw to flow or just from yards to another yard if needed for a few hives ? .


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## BeeHopper

The reason Im getting into it is, well I like bees and understand them more then humans and I have 9 felony convictions and cant get a job any where else. I'm not trying to get rich, just trying to eek out a living, I'll be happy making that 30k a year. I've ran the numbers and the money is there but like others have stated its hard work. Something I'm use too, I've had plenty of crap jobs from working in commercial poultry to lifting 100+lbs square bails in 110 degree heat. Is it for everyone? Certainly not.
The thing with honey production is being able to manage your hives well enough so you can pump up production. Some hives are able to produce in excess of 200lbs of honey, some hives only produce 40lbs. With honey you cant really think in terms of pounds you have to think tonage. Then there is marketing, branding, etc etc its no different then selling any other product. Its not going to be as simple as going to a farmer market and shouting "Gives me your money fo honeys!"
Best advice I can give to someone and myself is to do your homework, count your pennies dollars will take care of themselves be passionate about what you do, show others your passionate about your product and if **** goes down hill dont throw in the towel. Successful people are not quitters. Fortunes are built on pennies. #lifecoaching 101


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## sqkcrk

Seems to me BeeHopper that you are going to have to ease into things and be patient. It takes a long time before actual profits come from beekeeping. Somehow, even in the years when we didn't make a profit we paid our bills and ate. It takes a long time.


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## Eduardo Gomes

Cristian said:


> In Portugal you move the hives from flw to flow or just from yards to another yard if needed for a few hives ? .


Cristian my employee and I we move about 70 % of my hives from flow to flow between March and September. In September I move about 40% of the hives of higher areas to lower areas to spend the winter. I move other 20-30 % from the inside of my country to near the atlantique coast to start production of new swarms in late January mid-February. Right now I'm already making new colonies with queens bought already mated. In march I expect begin raising and mating my own queens. I'll use for the first time OTS technique for raising queens.


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## Cristian

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Cristian my employee and I we move about 70 % of my hives from flow to flow between March and September. In September I move about 40% of the hives of higher areas to lower areas to spend the winter. I move other 20-30 % from the inside of my country to near the atlantique coast to start production of new swarms in late January mid-February. Right now I'm already making new colonies with queens bought already mated. In march I expect begin raising and mating my own queens. I'll use for the first time OTS technique for raising queens.


How many hives you have now for the two of you to be able to make it ? .


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## Eduardo Gomes

In this moment around 430 hives.


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## grozzie2

papabear said:


> can't count the # of candles and honey we sell.


My books would never show a profit either if we weren't tracking sales and expenses.


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## Specialkayme

It's been stated, I believe by Mark, that probably less than 1% of the people that ask these types of questions actually end up starting into the business. And I think that's accurate. But for good reason.

Beekeeping as a profession is somewhat unique. Most people don't get into welding or construction as a hobby. Although they could. Most people get into beekeeping as a hobby (unless it's an inherited family profession). They enjoy it as a hobby, and want to see if they can turn it into an enjoyable enterprise. Because most people hate their jobs. But the economics of a hobby beekeeping business and the economics of a commercial operation are very different.

My normal job involves business turnaround. In doing it, I've seen alot of different industries and more profit/loss statements than I care to think about. I've turned around residential and commercial real estate ventures, manufacturing (including airplane parts and wood veneer), life science companies, franchises and retail sales ventures, farms, and construction companies, just to name a few that were done in the past couple years. As a general rule, low bars to entry will generate greater interest. Businesses that involve a greater degree of capital investment typically require less labor, and vice versa. Meaning someone who is manufacturing parts, and requires a great deal of machinery to do it but has semi-skilled labor, will have a greater capital investment than someone starting a plumbing business, which is largely based on labor involvement. In addition, a business that works primarily in the greater capital investment group, but lower labor investment group, typically shoots for a 8-10 year return on invested capital. Those with higher labor involvement but lower capital investments typically shoot for a 2-3 year return on investment. Which makes sense when you think about it.

But professional beekeeping requires a considerable amount of up front capital investment, involves a great deal of skilled labor, is heavy on the labor involvement side, and offers a (generally speaking) fairly low return on investment. You can expect to spend $500,000 easy on a 1,000 colony operation ($200 per colony, $100k in land, $100k for extracting equipment, $100k for vehicles), without touching the first few years worth of expenses. On top of that, as an investment rule, you need to expect to operate for 3 years without a profit when starting. A 1,000 colony operation can run $200k per year in expenses. Meaning you can get behind very fast. Most operations don't throw off _that much_ profit at the end of the year. You can make a living, but 1,000 colonies can expect to bring you maybe $60k in profit, assuming you do everything right (which most don't the first few years). That type of profit usually isn't enough to support a 1/2 Million Dollar loan. Which means you need someone who has the money (or equipment) in the form of cash to buy in. 

If you had $500k to invest in a business, you can get much greater returns on your investment from almost any other source than from beekeeping. Which hinders those from getting involved. Which means you get more people that are cash poor but land (equipment) rich. Those are the type that inherit operations, or have grown them over the course of several years. But even those that grow them over successive years have problems. You can run 100 colonies as a side form of income, but 250 is difficult to do as a side job. But 250 usually isn't enough for someone to do full time beekeeping. So, you get someone who has 150 hives and has to decide whether they want to take the plunge and go to 500 hives (and if they have the money to do it). Those people have years of profit/loss to calculate, so they don't need to start these threads.

When I've run the numbers, based on an operation of honey and nuc sales, I know that for me (based on my estimation of expenses) I need to average 45 pounds of honey per colony with 100 hives to break even. That's running at a bare bones operation, and not paying myself a dime. Tough when state average is 35 lbs. But if I push it up to 1,000 hives, the break even point gets closer to 25 pounds (although, with each additional pound over 25 you would need more equipment, and I don't think the budgeted equipment I have to find the 25 pound minimum would support processing 25,000 pounds of honey per year, but I digress). Assuming I could get state average every year, I'd need roughly 250 colonies to make some sort of a go at it. Even at that, it would give me a 25 year return on investment. Better off tossing the money somewhere else. But, I've made dumber decisions before


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## sqkcrk

But did you enjoy them as much?


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## Specialkayme

Certainly not.


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## jim lyon

I take issue with your numbers speck. Doubles can be bought out of the almonds for $160. Split them down, add a lid and bottom and a QC's and you can have a booming single for around $100, after that you grow your own bees, never buy them. No need to start out with a 100k extracting system, I'm betting a used radial system could easily be pieced together for under 20k. Vehicles at 100k? No way would that be necessary, a good used 1 ton could be found for around 20k and I just sold a forklift and trailer for 9k that had lots of life left in it. That stuff will at least get you started. Land at 100k? Well that's a local question but land is a seperate capital investment that rarely depreciates. Personally I can't imagine spending $200 per hive on expenses, last year I spent well under $100, and I have a pretty significant labor bill. 
Income is the real issue here, though. To be successful you need to go find a honey crop and not hope it happens near where you live. That's a deal breaker for lots of folks and understandably so. Migratory beekeeping isn't very family friendly. The key is to get at least a semi load if not two and figure a way to get them to an area with some potential where $200 per hive can be grossed in a matter of weeks, then head them west where,perhaps, another $150 could be made from almond pollination. Lots of beekeepers have had annual grosses of $500 per hive in recent years. Sure, it takes money to make money, the biggest beekeepers are the largest risk takers but the good ones have been rewarded handsomely.


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## Specialkayme

Jim,

Yeah, some of my numbers may be off. But I wouldn't say crazy. I threw out a ball park $500k. Maybe you could do it for $350k. Maybe you could to it for $300k. I wouldn't go much further down than that though. Big difference between the two, no doubt. But the other economics remain valid, at least in my opinion. To most people that post these threads, obtaining a $300k loan is just as out of grasp as obtaining a $500k loan. The payments on either size loan will be significant.

Doubles coming out of almonds have never been much of an option for me. Other side of the country. I'll have to defer to you on that one.

You'd know better than I would on the per hive expenses. So again I'll defer to you. I'm just going on my own budgets and estimations. I'd be happy to send you my budgets and numbers if you wanted to tell me where I'm wrong.

As far as income goes, it takes significant connections and several years to find the right spots to put hives to gross $200 per hive in a few weeks. And you usually need the hives in hand to be able to make those connections. Assuming you feel comfortable enough that you could do it, you've gotta shell out the cash sight unseen for transportation to get them out to almonds, assuming they'll build up in enough time that you can make pollination grade. All risks inherent in the operation. 

Bigger risk, bigger reward. But to an onlooker, the risks are bigger and the potential rewards are lesser than comparative (or even non-comparative) ventures. It isn't about getting rich quick. It's about odds of going broke, compared to what it will cost you to find out and what you'll make if you succeed. Professional beekeeping may bring a 30% chance you'll go broke, while costing you $300k to get the right to make $80k a year. Not a bad way to make a living. But there are more enticing enterprises out there.

A general rule of speculative investing is to run a budget and projected income, double your expenses and half your income. If you can still make it out alive, it might be worth while. When I run the beekeeping numbers, if I double my expenses OR half my income, I'm looking at taking a bath. Then again, I'm not looking at getting $500 gross per hive.

I mean that with the best of respect though. Don't get me wrong. Utmost respect for you guys. You're living the tough life, loving most minutes of it, and making a hard earned living from it. I'd love to be in your shoes, but don't have the balls to take the plunge, point blank. I'd like to grow, and hopefully find out the waters are warmer than my projections indicate. But time will tell. And if I'm looking at the waters thinking they look a little frigid, I know others are as well.


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## Cristian

Nice revenue , 500 $ . Here if from production hives I make 90-100 lbs per year excluding the nucs is a good year . The prices are much lower 1,4 $ / lbs so max 140 $ / hive in one year . A hive is 120 $ but the beekeeping here is like gambling . I spend like 50 $ for a production hive .


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## Davidnewbeeboxbuilder

I'm in a nitch market in nc moutains on three sides big lakes creeks in every hollow average honey production for state is 80 pounds we have four flows some times most noticeable and dependable is tulip popular persimmon black berry and the rare sourwood. My worst year average is 60 pounds. I buy lumber 50 cent a board ft plained and build boxes buy frames and wax. Could sell all I could produce at about 5.60 a pound for spring wild flower. Sour wood is very high but exclude that from ur figures. My apiary rent is a quart of honey. Gas for 13 visits to each a year I pick locations in general directions. Nucs and local queens is a big bonus if demand stays. I would like to expand faster. Oh and the best years 400+pounds per season. Rags to riches is the reason I will never jump.


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## cheryl1

I'm new here, and I've learned a lot so far from this thread. I would like to make a go business wise with beekeeping, and I think I have a fairly good shot. We live on my husband's income, homeschool 3 kids (yay free labor!), already own all the land we could ever need debt free, already have trucks/forklift/woodworking shop etc. Right now I'm focusing on expanding my equipment and hives as cash and bees allow. I'm really trying to expand in a way that doesn't put me into any debt.


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## sqkcrk

cheryl1, appears as though you have the ideal set up to make some money through honey production and sales, if where you live is a decent honey producing area and a decent honey market from home, at Farm Mkts, and in small independent grocery stores. It takes time to get all of your ducks in a row. Years to get your hive numbers and honey production up to where you have enough product to sell. And then the time it takes to establish your market, be it farm stand, farmer's market, and/or store(s). But it can be done. It's a business, if you plan to make an income off of your bees. So keep that in mind all the time. Best wishes.


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## BMAC

:thumbsup:
My wife works the business side full time. We dont live completely on the earnings but we certainly make half our income with it. She loves being her own boss and as Mark stated, good local market. It takes time but its well worth the wait and you cant beat free farm labor. I have to pay for my farm labor.


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