# Top bar hive questions for newbie



## frstmer (Apr 8, 2013)

Hey to all!! I have just completed my first top bar hive. I have the sliding dividers in it to minimize the chambers. I have learned a lot from reading the forums but cannot find the answers to so questions I have, maybe someone can answer them for me.
First, I have read that the entrance should be anywhere from the end, side, bottom, 2 entrances, 3, just one, can someone please tell me what works best for them. I am going to have a covered landing.
The brood chamber, does the top bars need to be waxed just as the ones I want to collect honey from and where should they be placed in reference to the entrance?
The pollen stores, do the top bars in this chamber need to be waxed also and where do I place them in reference to the others, (brood, honey)? Do I divide in off with my dividers? 
Once I have a colony established, do I mess with the brood chamber, (like maintenance)?
What about the pollen stores? and how do I tell the difference in each?
Thanks to you all for the informative site.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

i won't try to answer your questions because this is my first yr keeping bees and I just got my first hive yesterday, but I will say that your questions are all over the place and many are basic questions that would be covered in just about any book on bees, so I can only assume that you haven't read any. I would suggest doing alot of reading, youtube has good videos as well to help you see what you are looking at. When you think you have got all of your bases covered, read some more, I have been studying up for almost 2 yrs now and when I went to pick up my hive yesterday and we went through it so I could see what I was getting, I could not believe how overwhelmed and uneducated I felt LOL So hang in there do some reading, and try to focus your questions on one single subject, and most certainly, welcome to the forrum


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## llgoddj (Apr 11, 2012)

You do not need to wax any of the top bars. Leave that job to the bees, they are much better at it. No worries about which bars where, the only issue is the width of the bars. Once they have established themselves and begin to produce honey, this should be on a wider bar than the brood bars.


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## frstmer (Apr 8, 2013)

Harley Craig said:


> i won't try to answer your questions because this is my first yr keeping bees and I just got my first hive yesterday, but I will say that your questions are all over the place and many are basic questions that would be covered in just about any book on bees, so I can only assume that you haven't read any. I would suggest doing alot of reading, youtube has good videos as well to help you see what you are looking at. When you think you have got all of your bases covered, read some more, I have been studying up for almost 2 yrs now and when I went to pick up my hive yesterday and we went through it so I could see what I was getting, I could not believe how overwhelmed and uneducated I felt LOL So hang in there do some reading, and try to focus your questions on one single subject, and most certainly, welcome to the forrum



You are right about the books, lol. I have been reading this forum and to many websites to name for years. I was going to build a top bar hive 3 years ago and never got around to it. This spring, I finally cut the planks and assembled it by the instructions on another site. I finished this weekend. I have ordered pure beeswax and oil of Anise to try and attrck a swarm. I live in the National Forest and have 2 hives in seperate tree hollows on my property. I dont want to disturb them by hand. The only thing i have left to do on my hive is, put in a bottom, (wood or screen), and drill the entrance holes and attach the landing/porch. 
I will keep studying.
Thank You


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## frstmer (Apr 8, 2013)

llgoddj said:


> You do not need to wax any of the top bars. Leave that job to the bees, they are much better at it. No worries about which bars where, the only issue is the width of the bars. Once they have established themselves and begin to produce honey, this should be on a wider bar than the brood bars.


Thank you for the answer. All my bars are the same width, 1 3/4. I cut them all from store bought, 1"X2"X8'. Im sure you know, store bought lumber isnt dimentional. The actual is (I think), 
3/4X1-3/4 and I cut mine 17" long.
Everything I have read says to put a bead of beeswax in a 1/8" kerf or on a protrution of some shape, for the bees to have something to attach the comb to. I can do with out this?


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## llgoddj (Apr 11, 2012)

i didn't say that. You should have something for the bees to attach the comb to, but all this needs to be is a piece of wood. i have found the best to be paint stirring sticks. Rout out a 1/4 bead along the top bar, and insert the stirrer for the length of the bar, excluding the last 2 inches on each side. This is perfect for them to attach their comb to, and will "instruct" the bees to form a naturally straight comb.


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## frstmer (Apr 8, 2013)

llgoddj said:


> i didn't say that. You should have something for the bees to attach the comb to, but all this needs to be is a piece of wood. i have found the best to be paint stirring sticks. Rout out a 1/4 bead along the top bar, and insert the stirrer for the length of the bar, excluding the last 2 inches on each side. This is perfect for them to attach their comb to, and will "instruct" the bees to form a naturally straight comb.


COOL, thats a great idea, thank you!!
Since I have already ordered pure beeswax bars, In your opinion, will it help or deter the bees in any way, if I did apply some to the edge of the stirrers?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

many people wax their bars with no problems, many people don't with no problems, so either way I think you will be ok.


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## frstmer (Apr 8, 2013)

Thank you Mr Craig. I figured since I had already bought it and, Im trying to catch a swarm, every little thing might help.


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## Cliffton Leverett (Mar 14, 2013)

I think there is a lot of ways to do it. I think the simplicity of the top bar hive lets it work in a multitude of configurations. I would say what I chose to do was 3, 1 inch holes bored on one end near the top. These can be sealed up by hanging a wood block with nails above the holes ala Mcartney Taylor style. The end entrance is so that the honey combs arn't split at either ends. I didn't bother with different width top bars.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

I wouldn't wax, I have heard it makes a less secure attachment to the guide, and that makes sense to me. I also only use 1 size top bar an have had no problems with it. I would also use what ever entrance you like so long as it is on the end. I think having it in the side toward the middle is asking for trouble, since the tendancy is for the brood to be closer to the entrance. If the entrance is at the middle of the hive the brood will be in the middle with honey at the ends. This is not a problem until winter arrives, when they cluster they will pick one side or the other, and if they run out of honey at that end they are unlikly to move to the other end to get at the other half of the stores. You could always rearrange the bars to correct this, but that seems like to much work. 

I would give them 8 or so bars to start with, and when they fill out 75% add a couple of more. 
Good luck and enjoy.


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## frstmer (Apr 8, 2013)

You are right, the simplicity is excatly why I built one. I have read about the hole or holes, on the end but at the bottom so the heat doesnt escape. Im in the deep south so we dont get much winter but, we do get a heck of a summer so, heat loss shouldnt be a problem.
I have read the bars should be this or that but, the majority of the sites I have read have all the bars the same size.
Thank yall for all the help. I believe this is going to be more of a, "learn as you go", endeavor because nothing I have read says the same thing.


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

Check out youtube ,Out of a bluesky. I have found him very informative. We just started with top bar hives this year, have the basic square framed hives for a couple years. But the weight of the boxes are getting to be too much for my old body. Yes wax all bars, and don't worry about the brood, pollen honey separation. The bees will make their own patterns. Just go to Utube and enter KTBH or Top bar hives and you will get a list of videos that will be quite helpful. Good luck and happy bee keeping. Remember, Bee keeping is Not Science, it's Nature.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Don't wax the bars, just wax the bottom or sides of the hive. They attach better to bars that are not waxed. If you can get old brood comb for wax, it has a much stronger smell than wax processed from cappings. The pure beeswax is probably from cappings, but it is better than nothing.

Also, if your bars are 1 3/4's they are going to be too wide. You may get them to build to a kerf, but they will have ribbon comb all over the place. You should be using 1 1/4 or 1 3/8 bars.


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## Cliffton Leverett (Mar 14, 2013)

frstmer said:


> You are right, the simplicity is excatly why I built one. I have read about the hole or holes, on the end but at the bottom so the heat doesnt escape. Im in the deep south so we dont get much winter but, we do get a heck of a summer so, heat loss shouldnt be a problem.
> I have read the bars should be this or that but, the majority of the sites I have read have all the bars the same size.
> Thank yall for all the help. I believe this is going to be more of a, "learn as you go", endeavor because nothing I have read says the same thing.


FYI I am starting with tbh too. My first package absconded. If I were to install another package I would seal up the entrance for a few days until they start building comb.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Cliffton, do you have a screened bottom board or a solid bottom? If it is screened you want to cover it up. If there is no slider board you could just use some cardboard and duck tape or something. Get it nice and dark in there. Once you get a little comb you shouldn't have to worry about an abscond. Did they abandon the queen? Or did she and the whole crew up and leave?

If you can get some old brood comb to melt in there to give it the correct smell it wouldn't hurt. Also put in a quart or half gallon jar of 1:1 syrup in there. That won't prevent them from absconding, but it will give them easy access to food. Some Lemon Grass Oil wouldn't hurt, but if you use it, only use a drop or two. 

I would be nervous about keeping the hive too closed up, they may overheat in Texas. If possible you may want to put out a swarm trap in the area just in case they do abscond. You may not get the hive, but then again, maybe you will.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

frstmer said:


> You are right, the simplicity is excatly why I built one. I have read about the hole or holes, on the end but at the bottom so the heat doesnt escape. Im in the deep south so we dont get much winter but, we do get a heck of a summer so, heat loss shouldnt be a problem.
> I have read the bars should be this or that but, the majority of the sites I have read have all the bars the same size.
> Thank yall for all the help. I believe this is going to be more of a, "learn as you go", endeavor because nothing I have read says the same thing.


My first hive I purchased and it came with three holes in the side, middle near the bottom. That didn't work so well, so I moved the entrance to the top of the side near the end. I put in two holes spaced so that they were between the bars. The bees seemed to have liked that arrangement and it gives the hive better ventilation. My Carniolan bees closed their entrance half up with propolis for winter.

I find the screen bottom just lets the pests (small hive beetle and wax worms) in, so I won't be putting them on again.

Ditto on not waxing the bars and on the 1 3/8" bar size if you are going with just one size. (My purchased hive has 1 3/8" bars, the ones I made are half 1 1/4" and half 1 1/2" based on Mike Bush's recommendations - you should check out his site or his book "The Practical Beekeeper".)

For a TBH book recommendation, "Top-Bar Beekeeping" by Les Crowder is my favorite. I am a book person so have several on the subject but his is a very readable length with informative pictures and sketches for seasonal management.

All the bars that they have brood or stores (pollen or honey) should be on the same side of the divider (follower board) so that the bees can take care of it. Only empty bars and a syrup feeder if you are feeding on the other. (Les's book will really help you with this type of stuff.)


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

+1 on Les's book. And anything Michael Bush says.


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## frstmer (Apr 8, 2013)

well I got my first one up and baited it with a drop of vanilla and a drop of Anise. Im still waiting on the lemongrass oil. Our lemongrass patch is planted along with every other plant I could find that bee's like. Our 4 pear and 6 apple tree's have leaves on them and the wild plum, (too many to count), are in full plumage. I am putting the second hive out this weekend. It has a solid bottom and an entrance like Lee describes in his book. The bars are also to his specs and have a triangle glued/nailed to them instead or the way I did the other one, (paint stirrers).
Now I wait


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

I have never heard of using vanilla and anise to bait a hive. Just lemongrass oil, "queen juice", some kind of queen lure that is sold, and one place actually mentioned lemon pledge but I have no idea if that works. I found food grade lemongrass oil at Whole Foods Market.

Are you trying to entice in a swarm? I made two top bar swarm boxes and put them out to try to catch one this year myself. One is at my house and the other is at the house of a friend who has had two swarms land in his yard in the past few years. He doesn't keep bees but his grandad did so he knows a little about it and was willing to help me try to lure them in. I used a q-tip dipped in queen juice on one end and a few drops of lemongrass oil on the other end plus a bar that had an old brood comb on it. Lots of great on the swarm part of the forum. I hope we both get lucky and catch one!

It sounds like you have a nice variety of fruit trees planted. Two of my four apple trees should bloom within a week, and my crab apple tree has just started blooming.


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## frstmer (Apr 8, 2013)

I used a q-tip also with the Anise and Vanilla. I used the Vanilla because I had read somewhere on the forum that some one's grandad, (Ibelieve), Used Vanilla. I didnt think it would hurt until I got the lemongrass oil in. Our local grocery store only had imitation oils, so I didnt even bother. I live so far out that the grocery store is about 20 miles away and the nearest convienence store is an old country store about 15 miles away and closes at noon on Saturdays and is only open during hunting season. There isnt anybody I know that has bees near me. I have had people ask me about the hives when they come to buy quail and eggs though. The first thing I get is, "why would you want bees?". The next is, "let us know when you have honey".


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Two words: Amazon Prime!


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## frstmer (Apr 8, 2013)

shannonswyatt said:


> Two words: Amazon Prime!


What is Amazon Prime?


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Amazon.com has a thing called prime. You pay I think $100 a year and you get free shipping. I have a friend who buys almost everything he gets this way. If they had meat, dairy and produce, he probably would!


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## thebalvenie (Feb 25, 2013)

+1 on the les crowder book.

there's now an accompanying DVD out there too....i've not yet seen it but i imagine i will purchase it to watch with my family.

i get my bees on May 3rd.

very excited!


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## Ckennedy73 (Mar 27, 2013)

I am a first year top bar hive person, too. I read Wyatt Mangum's book : http://www.tbhsbywam.com/ . I think his designs and methods are pretty solid, but I don't really have much experience. I hived two packages at the end of March. One is doing very well, but the other doesn't have a queen. (one is on order)


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The location of the entrance doesn't become very critical until winter when the brood nest needs to be at one end, and with a middle entrance it will be in the middle. As far as top or bottom, my top bar hive when it had legs blew over, so I set it on the ground and then had mouse and skunk problems, so I went to the top.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm


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## frstmer (Apr 8, 2013)

I found topbars 1 1/4 but lowes doesnt stock the triangle corner or half round molding for the bees to attach comb. They do have strip molding, 1 1/4" wide X 1/4" thick. Will this work like paint stirrers or should i have someone rip the triangles for me?


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## Belewsboy (Jun 6, 2012)

I'm on my second year with Langstroth hives. My 18 year old son has been helping me with them and has decided to get a Top Bar. There is a new bee supply company near me who just built his first TBH. Very basic. I have asked him to build my son one. We are to get together with him tomorrow and discuss any changes we might want. This thread gives me the opportunity to ask a few questions.
1) Is an observation window a good thing to have or more trouble than they are worth?
2) The guy who built his first one had 3 holes down the long side of the hive. Looks like the consensus here is they should be on the end. Why can't the entire bottom of the end board be open like a Langstroth? Could even add a 
3" landing board and a reducer as well?
3) Looks like the bar width is up for grabs. I understand they will draw out to 1 3/8", so 1 1/2" bar width?
4) Any other recommendations?

Thanx for any input.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

frstmer, 1/4 inch guides will work, but you would need to attach them somehow. If you can get a kerf cut you could go that route. 


Belewsboy, 
Put in an observation window, particularly on the first hive. It will let you get an idea of what is going on without disturbing the bees. Lots of fun to watch.

I use 4 holes near the front on the side of the hive. I like it and it works for me. If you feel you want move of an opening you could go the Michael Bush/Sam Comfort method of leaving a space in the top by moving a bar back. No reason to use a landing board (ever see a landing board on an oak?)

1 1/4 is more like it, but some go with 1 3/8's (quibbling over 1/8 of an inch). Split the difference and go with 1 5/16's.  1 1/2 would be for honey stores and even then you may need spacers. 

Read everything you can and don't try to turn you TBH into a Lang!


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

This is why I like an observation hive, and pointy comb guides.







Not a great picture, but you could see the comb through the window and know that they are building straight comb.

Those are actually 1 inch bars with a 3/8 inch spacer.


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## Merlinspop (Nov 4, 2010)

I use all 1 3/8" bars (more or less...ripping with a bandsaw isn't the most accurate), cove moulding attached point down, no wax on anything, 5 holes on the end 3/4 of the way up (I forget the size, but a wine cork fits perfectly to adjust total entrance size). Splayed out 2x4 braced legs (probably overkill, but several storms with 50+mph winds didn't budge it). I don't use a follower and they allways seem to put the brood chamber on the end by the entrance without any help. My lid is plywood inside 1x3, covered with scrap RV roof rubber. It did lift off in one storm so now a single ratchet strap holds it in place. Solid bottom. All day direct sun, so I do put out a patio umbrella on still 100* days. 

I think the bees are pretty adaptable and tolerate variations on the theme well enough, as long as you don't dork with them too much.


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## frstmer (Apr 8, 2013)

HOORAY!!!, I have 2, 3lb packages shipping the 7th of may. I have one TBH ready with paint stirrers in ripped groove and the other one with the box and follower's built. Aquiring top bars and a piece of plex glass now to put in observation window. Does anyone have an opinion on leaving the window uncovered 24/7 or have a cover that slides/folds down to look in?


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## Merlinspop (Nov 4, 2010)

I believe that you'll want to have a a way to close off the window. Bees naturally do their thing in the dark and leaving the window open 24/7 might make them unhappy.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would close it. Another thing to consider is if the sun EVER shines in it for even a little while, the hive becomes a "solar wax melter"...


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