# To glue or not to glue?



## Fetustician (Feb 23, 2015)

Isn't the dead space the space below the slats? What I was referring above as the space between the SBB and the SBR? Or did I misunderstood?


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Nice photos and plans. Where did you get the plans? The reason I ask is that I use slatted racks and sometimes they fall off the bottom of the first box and, if it does miss my foot, which it usually doesn't, I get a lot of upset bees. A combined SBB and Slatted rack like yours would be nice. I use flat bars and screws to attach the SR to the SBB and make it one unit.
You could leave a removable slat/door at the back that can be used to give access for removing anything you need to remove. You could glue (I use TiteBond III) everything else. I like the red cedar you used also. You could probably use any wood as long as you paint or stain it.
There's a dead space below the slatted rack and the screen and another between the screen and the board that catches the falling debris and mites.


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## Fetustician (Feb 23, 2015)

Thanks Gary,
I made those drawings in Sketchup. Be happy to share them with you. Not sure if the forum allows posting of non - image files.
Yes Eastern Red Cedar is nice, smells great and is pretty bug proof. We are in the process of painting it now, indeed.
Mostly thanks for validating my intuition about having a simpler combined stand, instead of a stack of parts. And thanks for confirming the idea of a back door.


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Not sure about posting non-image files either. 
My dad made a lot of turned bowls, stools, quilt racks, and shelves from red cedar. I'm not sure what he used for a finish but the sap came through some of his early work. Later he used something different that did not have that problem. A good paint store or hardware store could probably give some excellent advice on the best paint or clear coat for the red cedar.


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## Fetustician (Feb 23, 2015)

HI Gary,
I posted the model on the 3D Warehouse of Sketchup:

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/se...ed+bottom+board.&rsi=sbis&backendClass=entity

You can also search the warehouse for:

8-frame Langstroth beehive with stand combining the slatted bottom rack and screened bottom board.

Yes those cedar trees were cut years ago and they are no longer sappy at all! (actually I wonder if I could use fresh Cedar and get the sap to glue the parts, that would be neat! This is what we started with look like!!


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## jfmcree (Mar 10, 2014)

I use screened bottoms and slatted racks with all of my 10F Langstroth hives. They are separate pieces and I have not had any problems with slippage. Keep in mind there will be 100+ pounds of hive and bees that want to glue everything together to keep pieces from moving around.

I also thought of combining them at one point into a single piece, versus 2 pieces glued together. The benefits seemed negligible to me. I saw these potential drawbacks:
1. Dead bees, mice, debris etc are harder to clean out if there is little clearance to get to it.
2. A dropped component that breaks or is in need of replacement now breaks 2 components and requires disassembly.
3. Fixing a screen problem, such as detachment, is harder as it is normally stabled from the top. SR blocks access.

I think a single integrated piece or 2 pieces fastened together would work, but I could not think of a reason for why it was better than 2 separate pieces.

Jim.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Ok... what is the rationale' on the slatted bottom board?


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## jfmcree (Mar 10, 2014)

The rationale for using a slatted rack is to improve the temperature stability in the hive, increase brood space and reduce swarming. As with many bee-things, some swear by them and others say they do nothing or are not worth the cost. The general sentiment seems to me to be they are beneficial, but they are 1 more piece of equipment to build/buy and manage. Each beekeeper has to assess the value in the local operation. There is a lot to read in BeeSource about them.

All of my production hives and nucs have them. My bottom brood frames tend to be drawn to nearly the bottom (within 1/2"). I've seen a lot of bees hanging out on them when I get that deep into the hive. I can't definitely say my operation is better because of them because I don't have a control to compare to.

Jim.


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## Fetustician (Feb 23, 2015)

Thanks Jim, Yes I am concerned about the dropped equipment, but not the breakage. Just dry assembled this has very tight fitting joints and feels very sturdy. I think that leaving a door behind so that debris could be pushed with a stick, looks the most appealing.

Hi Beeman, I think there are plenty of posts on the SBR, being a beginner, I am not the one to inform YOU! You know a lot more then me!


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

I'll comment on the top entrance. No, snow is not a problem here in TN, but mice are. If you run bottom entrances, you will need some type of mouse guard for the winter. They will ruin a several frames of comb building their nests.


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Fetustician:Thought about the slatted rack some more this morning. You could just attach the slatted rack with a couple of screws instead of gluing that part, since it is assembled separately, and just lift the rack out (there'll be some propolis attaching it to the rest of the bottom of course) when/if you need to remove anything.
I have slatted racks on twenty hives and they really cut down on the bearding when I started using them. Yes, it's another piece of equipment but it works for me and my bees.


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## Fetustician (Feb 23, 2015)

Yes I am very tempted by the top entrance. Mr Bush description are very interesting. But I am worried as a real beginner to not be able to "see" down under, and clean. Yes of course I could disassemble the whole hive to clean. Michael's advice to stick to one system and not cherry-pick from one system and another is also good advice.

Matt, would you simply close the front and back of that drawing (no ramp) and then make the entrance in the top? Nothing glued yet, it is still feasible.

We have designed the "telescoping cover" with a more traditional roof double slant (first drawing). And there would be space there to make an entrance (photo). We are planing to put a 1" sheet of insulation under the roof. So would you make a thin inside cover in the roof, then the usual top cover on top of the hive and a 3/8 space between the top cover and the "telescoping cover" so that the bees can move in and out (second drawing). This looks very feasible. Should the top cover have a wider opening to facilitate the passage of the bee to the hive below? I have not see many images of top entrance only (not just an added entrance), aside from the shimmed telescoping cover that Michael has in his book.


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## Stadger (Apr 20, 2014)

Sorry if this is a silly question but do the bees ever build comb on the slats?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would skip the "mouse ramp"... errr I mean the sloped landing board. But then I'd skip the whole bottom entrance...

The slatted rack needs to have at least 1 5/8" under it to do much good (cluster space is the idea) and 2" probably wouldn't hurt. While you're at it, if you are going to bother with a screened bottom (and I probably wouldn't) you may as well increase the gap there so less mites find their way back.

Bees do not build comb between the slats. If crowded they occasionally build some comb hanging from the slats.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't like sloped covers because the top of a hive is a convenient place to set things without bending over. If it is sloped that function is not available. I also don't like telescopic covers as they tend to catch the wind (an issue where I live anyway). I like a flat cover that does not hang over the sides and gets glued down well, which also leaves out the inner cover...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopentrance.htm#make


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## Fetustician (Feb 23, 2015)

OK so adding those measurements, the new sides would have these dimensions? Better?


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## Fetustician (Feb 23, 2015)

I understand the benefits of a flat cover as an opportunistic table, and you run a ton of hives so that is quite a different consideration. But I like the appearance of the slope better (these would be garden hives), We do get some pretty good downpour here and shedding the water away from the wood structure appeals to me. Assuming a slanted roof, how would you suggest making the bee entrance? Would the drawing above provide the right features? In summary, medium, top cover, 3/8 bee space between top cover and inner ceiling of slanted roof and opening in the front of the telescoping cover?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

As long as you don't have more then 3/8" space between the top bars and the "ceiling" and the bees don't have any access to the "attic" you should be ok. If they can access the "attic" they will eventually build comb there.


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## Fetustician (Feb 23, 2015)

Great thanks! We will experiment with that!


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

In response to stadger's question about bees building comb on the slatted racks: I've never (yet) had any comb built on any of the racks. Not a silly question either, a good thing to ask about for anyone who may be thinking about using slatted racks.


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## Fetustician (Feb 23, 2015)

Some follow up on the project. So we switched to top entrance, and I attached the SBB and screen board as one unit. After 5 months the reason this was not a good idea was clear. Without a bottom entrance the bees can't carry out the dead bodies all the way to the top, and I had a thick stinky layer of dead bees at the bottom. To remove them required moving all the medium out, then shaking the dead bees out. The dead bee cadavers actually burned a spot in the grass!!
So don't follow that idea I had. 
I rebuild new stands now where the screen board can be slid in and out so I can shake the dead bees and a second slide under that to remove beetle or whatever debris goes thru the screen.
So explain to me how are bees supposed to clean the bottom of the hives with top entrances ? 
Thanks !


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So explain to me how are bees supposed to clean the bottom of the hives with top entrances ? 

When there are enough extra bees to keep the bottom clean it's kept clean. When there are not, it's not. It has nothing to do with where the entrance is. I've seen house bees carrying dead bodies around in my observation hive, which has a bottom entrance, for hours. Up to the top, down to the bottom. Looking for where to put it, I guess.

Whenever you're at the bottom, dump off the dead bees.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Duplicate


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## Orion7 (Jun 3, 2015)

Do you think the red cedar helps with your mites and other pest? I set up 2 red cedar hives this year to see if they do help keep pest out. 3 month in, and so far so good, but to early for me to really tell. Thought you might have more time with your red cedar hives.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Fetustician,
A "thick layer" of dead bees isn't normal for any time other than maybe the first time you open it in spring if they haven't had enough warm weather to clean things up.


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## TurnTex (Mar 6, 2015)

I have gabled covers on all 6 of my hives. They have been in use since March of this year. I use an inner cover with the hole in the center and my bees have access to the "attic". They hang out there during the day frequently but have not even touched it as far as drawing comb there. On my inner cover, I have a notch that I place down. I then have a corresponding hole in the gable cover that allows them an upper entrance. It has been working well for me this year with no down sides. The screened holes in the gabled cover also provide for good ventilation. Here is a pic of one of mine. This one has a feeder on it (yellow) so the upper entrance is blocked off:


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## Fetustician (Feb 23, 2015)

I don't know if the cedar helps. My friend who visited and is an experience beekeeper (50 years!!) said I had an unusual low or absence of pest. Not sure if this will continue. I saw only 1 beetle, but I am a very inexperienced person!


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## Fetustician (Feb 23, 2015)

Well this was in August and we got the bees in late May. No freezing since we got them, (middle TN). So that was probably not the issue, I suspect...


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## Fetustician (Feb 23, 2015)

Your hive looks beautiful!


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