# How fine Do You Filter Honey?



## Michael Pawelek (Jun 4, 2012)

Under what conditions does one decide which mesh filter to use on newly harvested honey? I have 200, 400 and 600 micron filters that came as a kit and the 600 mesh appears to filter out really well so why would I use the 400 and 200 sizes? Thanks...


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## bejay (Jan 14, 2005)

just use the 400 and it seems to do fine.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I agree, 400 micron will be good. 200 micron will be too fine.

I have two sets. And I place the 600 over the 400 and swap the strainers when the one set gets clogged.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I just have the 600 and it does fine.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Pawelek said:


> so why would I use the 400 and 200 sizes? Thanks...


The finer you filter the honey the longer it will take before it crystallizes.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> The finer you filter the honey the longer it will take before it crystallizes.


Is this true?

Perhaps it is the heating of the honey that reduces the crystallization. 200 micron strainers will require heating the honey ...


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I just use the nylon bag strainer that fits inside a five gallon bucket, don't know what micron it is but it does a great job. John


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Pawelek said:


> Under what conditions does one decide which mesh filter to use on newly harvested honey? I have 200, 400 and 600 micron filters that came as a kit and the 600 mesh appears to filter out really well so why would I use the 400 and 200 sizes? Thanks...


Strainers, they're strainers. Aren't they? Metal screens? Filters are much finer. Some made so the honey has to go thru diatomecous earth, heated and under pressure.

I can't tell you the technical differences, but the terms "strain" and "filter" are ones which mean somewhat different things.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BeeCurious said:


> Is this true?
> 
> Perhaps it is the heating of the honey that reduces the crystallization. 200 micron strainers will require heating the honey ...


Not appreciably true. Unless one truely does filter and not strain. Some honeys crysatlized quicker, or sooner, than others. Early season honey, often from trees such as locust and basswood, do not crystalize as quickly as later season honeys, such as goldenrod and aster.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

jmgi said:


> I just use the nylon bag strainer that fits inside a five gallon bucket, don't know what micron it is but it does a great job. John


I throw one of these in my strainer.











P.S. Mark...love the beard!!


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

And FILTERING definitely requires heat...


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## Scottsman (May 1, 2011)

If you are strapped for time, use the 600, if not the finer the mesh the clearer the honey. I use the 200 without heating but I'm not straining over 50 to 100 lbs at a go round.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

NasalSponge said:


> I throw one of these in my strainer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where did you see a beard?


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Social media.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Strain is the correct term. Filtering, especially ultra-filtering is being prosecuted in Florida and other states that have honey laws. The feds are seeking additional revenue also. It is all the result of illegal Chinese importation, but every law was made from someone cheating or being stupid. The good news is Florida beekeepers can bottle and sell honey under the Cottage Food Law up to $15,000 combined food sales from their back door, roadside stands and flea markets/ farmer's markets. Anything beyond that is netting Florida $5000 per violation and they "stop sale and hold" the product.


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## K.E.N. (May 5, 2011)

Remember that the finer you filter your honey the more goodness you'll lose such as pollen clear honey has almost none. So much for the nutrients when you heat it up also. Any time you use heat it changes the molecular composition of everything the heat touches. Like when you reheat coffee it gets that nasty taste far different from fresh brew.


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## Michael Pawelek (Jun 4, 2012)

Ok, I get the point that I am STRAINING the honey, not filtering. So since I am not filtering will the finest mesh strainer at 200 microns take out the pollen that I want to keep in the honey or is this only possible with filtering?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

SQKCRK nailed it when he said:

I can't tell you the technical differences, but the terms "strain" and "filter" are ones which mean somewhat different things. 

To find the answer to the "What will it remove" question, find the size of pollen in microns.

We do not filter, heat or strain(unless you count or backs). Time is your friend.

Crazy Roland


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I got the boot from my kitchen!


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## Michael Pawelek (Jun 4, 2012)

Most plant pollens are from 2.5 to 200 microns in diameter 
(found this in one of my very old text books) so it looks as if my smallest mesh strainer at 200 microns would let the vast majority of pollen through the mesh.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

I don't filter; I only strain @ 600micron to remove debris without removing the pollen.
time is indeed my friend - and my friend and I have decided to process in an efficient way so we can do other things than skim honey (which accomplishes the same thing with more work).


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Not trying to make too big a distinction out of it but "filtering" is forcing a liquid under high pressure (that has usually previously been strained) through a cartridge or tube containing a filtering medium that will remove foreign matter as small as 10 or 20 microns, sometimes smaller. 

Example: The motor oil in you automobile is both strained to keep large foreign objects from damaging the oil pump, as well as filtered by an oil filter that catches and removes much smaller material that is pumped through the filter under high pressure by the oil pump. Straining and filtering honey is similar to the lubercation system of your autobobile in this reguard.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

Michael Pawelek said:


> 600 mesh appears to filter out really well so why would I use the 400 and 200 sizes? Thanks...


Time is money. The finner the screen the longer it takes to flow through the screen. So you may not have time for 50lbs of honey to strain through 600 mesh right out of the extractor.

So instead you run it through 200 mesh out of the extractor which flows at a good rate. Later you move to another setup were you have 400 or 600 mesh and can let it sit over night and strain.

Personally i went with one shot 400 and was happy with the results.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

schmism said:


> Time is money. The finner the screen the longer it takes to flow through the screen. So you may not have time for 50lbs of honey to strain through 600 mesh right out of the extractor.
> 
> So instead you run it through 200 mesh out of the extractor which flows at a good rate. Later you move to another setup were you have 400 or 600 mesh and can let it sit over night and strain.
> 
> Personally i went with one shot 400 and was happy with the results.


The strainers are measured in "microns"... the 200 micron strainer has the smallest openings.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Michael Pawelek said:


> Ok, I get the point that I am STRAINING the honey, not filtering. So since I am not filtering will the finest mesh strainer at 200 microns take out the pollen that I want to keep in the honey or is this only possible with filtering?


I STRAIN the honey through a 1/16 " sieve and all the pollen is in the honey - only the " bees knees" are gone....and my customers love it this way.No heating at all.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/filter

Filter, strain, there is no difference. Straining is filtering. The only difference is to what degree. When you are straining you are using pressure it is called gravitation pull which decreases by the volume. Neither requires heat. Heat just makes it faster by lowering the viscosity of the honey.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Okay then, it's an industry technicality, or technical term. Strainers are of courser mesh, filters finer. You will never find a strainer made from layers of cylindrically confined discs layered w/ diatomecous earth, which requires honey to be heated and FORCED thru by pressure, not the pressure of gravity, but artificially applied pressure.

What almost all beekeepers do is straining. Nylon bags, nylon cloth, and metal wire mesh bowls are strainers.

Terms commonly used amongst beekeepers, those who are small scale on up to those who are commercial, help us to communicate a common understanding. We can argue the point, but, after a while, we should quit doing so and come to a consensus. I am of the camp which thinks these things have already been settled and that those new to the industry should learn the already established lingo. In some ways similar to when someone moves to a new country and learns the language rather than insisting that those where they have moved to accomodate them.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> Filter, strain, there is no difference.


There is a difference. One doesn't strain coffee, they filter it, otherwise we would have coffee grinds between our teeth. One doesn't install an oil strainer on their car for obvious reasons. At least I thought they were obvious. #1 Bird, where do you buy your oil strainer for your vehicle?


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## Michael Pawelek (Jun 4, 2012)

Well, After all this great discussion I decided to "strain" some honey I harvested yesterday. It was already strained with a 600 micron sieve right out of the extractor. I ran 2 gallons through a 400 micron sieve and two gallons through the finer 200 micron sieve. There were no percievable flecks of residue seen with the naked eye with the 400 micron and 200 micron sieves but under a 35 power hand lens there were many wax flecks seen in the honey left in the sieve at 200 microns. I assume how much one feels they need to filter is up to each individual and their time on a project. YMMV


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Here is a bit of a different answer to the question. Also straining and filtering both are targeted at the same object. to remove unwanted particles. but they are different in the scale of particles they will remove as well as the mechanics of the process required.

I use these strainers of a purpose other than honey. One that actually allows you to see the size of particle that is passing the strainer mesh. 600 micron will allow a particle that is clearly visible to the naked eye and in fact would be felt on the tongue or mouth with ease. like a grain of sand. The 400 micron will allow only slightly visible and barely feel able particles to pass comparable more to flour. In my application these particles are so fine they cannot be dumped from a bowl from there own weight they simply cling to the plastic much like flour clings to everything it touches. I do not use the 200 micro in what I do but obviously there would be a comparable reduction in particle size. as was mentioned before you are getting down to pollen particle size.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Some filters are strainers, but no strainer is a filter. Or something like that.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

You use two or more strainers/filters in series so the coarser materials are taken out before they get to the finer strainer/filter. This keeps the strainers/filters operating longer.

Tom


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## ChickenChaser (Jun 6, 2009)

Two very important things to remember:

1) Jesus told some Pharisees "Ye...strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel."
He did not say you filter at a gnat...

2) Unsure if anyone has ever attempted to strain a camel, but in the 60's or 70's - R.J. Reynolds filtered one. 

I thought this to be beneficial to this discussion. Thank you.

CC


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

This is a commonly used " Strainer" in Australia: http://www.qualitybeekeepingsupplies.com.au/index.php/catalogue-2/46-strainers


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

max2 said:


> This is a commonly used " Strainer" in Australia: http://www.qualitybeekeepingsupplies.com.au/index.php/catalogue-2/46-strainers


Except for a very small area in Utica, NY, that's what nearly all the English speaking world calls a "strainer."


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Acebird said:


> ... When you are straining you are using pressure it is called gravitation... Neither requires heat... Heat just makes it faster...


You are ignoring the fact that high pressure ALWAYS increases temperature, be it in a solid, liquid, or a gas.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_does_diesel_fuel_ignite_in_the_engine
Here is a well known example of a liquid (Diesel fuel) being heated past its combustion point by a piston inside a closed cylinder, a classic example of a pump.

Here is another case of temperature increasing the further below ground level you go.
http://www.energyquest.ca.gov/story/chapter11.html


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Since when is gravity pressure?


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## Buzzsaw2012 (Feb 1, 2012)

So what this boils down to is..........
If a person has a few hives , then the 5 gallon bucket with 2,4,and 600 micron screens and honey gate .
Should be a good way to bottle a few bottles of honey for not a lot of money {$36} and end up with a nice healthy product.
Although it may take longer it sounds like the method for me.


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## Michael Pawelek (Jun 4, 2012)

Buzzsaw2012
Yesterday, to filter 5 gallons of extracted honey through all 3 strainers at the same time took less than 30 minutes. Stacking them together allows the 600 micron to catch the larger particles that would clog the finer strainers and they nest together quite well. For my first time doing this I am quite pleased!


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

So, maybe raw and unfiltered honey is actually raw and 'strained' honey?

I've tried the really raw honey and have occassionaly spit out little bits of something or other.

Straining is good.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Buzzsaw2012 said:


> If a person has a few hives , then the 5 gallon bucket with 2,4,and 600 micron screens and honey gate .
> ...Although it may take longer it sounds like the method for me.


 Add a bread knife and a $100 plastic 2 frame extractor and you're set. To extract and strain 5 supers with this setup took a few hours one afternoon netting 120 lbs honey. It took longer to bottle it. I'm not advocating the quality of the cheap plastic extractor, just that it's cheap and turns out a fine product.


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## MrHappy (Feb 10, 2012)

That said, yes, the more you strain in, of course, the less stuff that will be in it. Most people where I live filter with 600. A bunch just use nylon stockings and toss them when they are done, but said that that is also about 600.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

BeeCurious said:


> The strainers are measured in "microns"... the 200 micron strainer has the smallest openings.


I was thinking that the "size" (200,400,600) referred to the mesh number. The higher the mesh number the smaller the size.
http://www.showmegold.org/news/Mesh.htm

But i checked my 5 gal plastic sieves and they actually say 200 micron, 400 and 600 micron. 

So the same idea just reverse the numbers


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/filter
> 
> When you are straining you are using pressure it is called gravitation pull which decreases by the volume.


Gravity = pressure and is is inversely proportional to volume? Even from you Ace, that is the most ridiculous thing that I have heard in quite some time. You dont know what gravity is, yet somehow we are to accept your idea that filtration = straining.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Acebird said:


> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/filter
> 
> Filter, strain, there is no difference.



Really? Isn't it amazing what you can find on the internet. Shame you can't believe everything you read. opcorn:
Regards,
Steven


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## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

I guess I'm strange. I guarantee no whole honeybee in the honey...maybe the occasional leg or small part, hasn't happened yet though. I have a stainless steel strainer that is used for pasta when I first extract, but then it just sits for about a week or more and then bottled, bottom first. Those that want it will ask for honey from the top with all the stuff. Otherwise the family goes nuts over it. They like it better than the 'cleaner' bottom honey.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

notaclue said:


> Those that want it will ask for honey from the top with all the stuff.


Take that, vegetarians!


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

most pollen grains are somewhere between 2 and 200 microns in size. A 400 micron strainer will remove most wax, but let the balance of pollen, etc through. Sometimes filters slowly when the honey is below 90 degrees.


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

> Gravity = pressure and is is inversely proportional to volume? Even from you Ace, that is the most ridiculous thing that I have heard in quite some time. You dont know what gravity is, yet somehow we are to accept your idea that filtration = straining.


The way he worded it is bizarre but the way you reworded it is true Pressure = equals the force placed on the liquid over area being measured. In this case that force is gravity times the weight of the liquid column above the filter. The weight of this column is dependent on its density (unchanged) and its volume. You can discount atmospheric pressure of the column of air over the column of honey because it is also acting on your gauge and cancels itself out.

You could determine the force of gravity from the pressure and the volume of a substance of known density such as honey so what he says is basically correct because pressure requires volume and a volume of any substance has mass.

The force of gravity = the pressure over a given area multiplied by the height of a column of known density over a given area, and since hight multiplied by area gives you volume you end up with



> _ Force of_ Gravity = pressure and is is inversely proportional to volume


IF you know the density of whatever is filling that volume and dimensions of that volume and since we are talking about honey in a bucket, we do. You also have to assume that the bucket isn't changing shape 

So its not that he's wrong, he's just leaving out the constants or assuming that we all know them.

Or put it another way, a five gallon bucket of honey on mars will have less pressure at the bottom of the bucket than it does on earth and in theory you could use that bucket of honey and the pressure gauge to determine the force of gravity on mars and in turn the mass of the entire planet. Or as my girlfriend just pointed out, if you had a pocket watch you could do the same thing just by swinging the bucket of honey and timing the arc. 

As for straining I find that 1/8" mesh works fine. After a day or two you can skim the bee's knees off the top and eat it.

What I _think_ Acebird was trying to say was that instead of heating the honey to decrease its viscocity and allow it to pass through a fine filter you can increase the volume which will increase the pressure (assuming that volume is stacked up over the same sized fliter) which will also allow the honey to pass through the filter without heating it.

Of course all this depends on:


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Area ≠ Volume


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Wow! I have been up north for a while and look what happened. Aerindel said it right and I didn't say it right but Aerindel knew what I was trying to say except:



> You also have to assume that the bucket isn't changing shape


Shape means nothing only the height of the liquid is important. Unit force is equal in all directions - (premise for designing dams).

Pressure = heat that is a good one.
The pressure at the bottom of the ocean is enormous (will crush a metal sub) and the water is freezing cold. Mark, you can decide on what ever beekeeper jargon you like but that doesn't make it technically correct.

First of all most, if not all of the impurities that are objectionable in honey can be removed with out straining or filtering at all. A simple vat in storage over a long time will allow heavy particles to sink to the bottom and light particles like wax to rise to the top. All you need to do is wait and draw from the middle. Filters and strainers are used to make packaging quick.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> Since when is gravity pressure?


Gravity is exerted on a fluid, the weight of which over an area is pressure. 

Not the same thing, but close enough. Without pressure (gravity), the honey does not flow through the strainer.

By the way, I again feel the crushing need to correct the statements of Mr. Cardinal. It is the increase in pressure that equals increase in heat, not high pressure itself. Pressure, heat, and volume have a direct relationship. For further information, read the Gas Laws Wikipedia page. It is very informative.

But the reasoning behind the ocean is a different story. First of all, it is not freezing cold at the bottom of the ocean, it is in fact above freezing. The reason is because the temperature at which water molecules can get the closest to one another (under extreme pressure) is right above freezing. That's why ice has a greater volume than liquid water and floats where if it were like most other substances, it should be more dense and sink. It has to do with the polar nature of the water molecule. So in fact, the instantaneous pressure and temperature at the bottom of the ocean are irrelevant to the conversation as high pressure does not necessarily have a relationship to high temperature without the effect of volume considered.

Similarly, if Mr. Cardinal were trying to prove the opposite point, he could state that the center of the earth where pressures are the highest is also very hot. But it would be equally irrelevant.


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

> Shape means nothing only the height of the liquid is important. Unit force is equal in all directions - (premise for designing dams).


It is important because as you say height is important. Five gallons of honey in a very tall narrow bucket will have much higher pressure at the bottom than five gallons of honey in a low flat bucket. In order to have an equation where gravity=pressure the shape of the container must be a constant, as must the density of the liquid. Like I said, it is a bizarre way to look at but it is a way that the statement force of gravity=pressure/volume could be true. No one would ever use this equation because its incomplete without the assumption of several constants, liquid type, shape of container etc, but it would work if you had those constants.





> Pressure = heat that is a good one.


_Change in density_ = heat. Liquids are very nearly non compressible so this does not apply. You can put liquids under enormous pressures and they do not noticeable change their volume or become warm.

It _does _apply to gases. Compress a gas and that gas will release heat. When gas expands it absorbs heat. Conversely, heat a gas in a closed container and its pressure will increase, cool a gas and the pressure will decrease. 

If you compress a gas, hold it at pressure and let the heat that was generated dissipate and then allow that gas to expand it will absorb the same amount of heat that was lost earlier. This is how a refrigerator works and why liquid nitrogen at room pressure is so cold. 



> Similarly, if Mr. Cardinal were trying to prove the opposite point, he could state that the center of the earth where pressures are the highest is also very hot. But it would be equally irrelevant.


It is because the heat at the center of the earth has nothing to do with its pressure just as the temperature at the bottom of the ocean has nothing to do with its pressure. The earths core is very hot because of the retained heat generated during its formation, frictional heating caused by matter sinking through molten layers, and radioactive decay. It is thought that without radioactive decay the earth would have solidified millions of years ago.

The formation of ice at high pressures is actually very interesting. Most liquids become solid at higher temperatures as pressure increases. This is how the earths core can be solid at a temperature of nearly 10,000ºF

But water is the opposite. At higher pressures it freezes at lower temperatures. Or in other words, at the bottom of the sea water can exist in liquid form at a temperature below what is generally considered the freezing point. This is also how a glacier can slid on a layer of liquid water at its base that is the same temperature as the ice above it.

_If_ the temperature at the bottom of the ocean was below freezing the water there could still be liquid because of this, so again, I have to agree in principle with Acebird even though the temperature of the ocean floor is above a point where this would matter.

It would be very interesting indeed if the temperatures and pressures at the bottom of the ocean where such that ice could form. Since it is lighter than water it would float to the top, lowering the surface temperature and allowing more warm water to move down where it would again freeze. Very shortly we would end up with an ocean that was frozen solid, except for the fact that as the warm surface water sank it would give up heat and eventually warm the ocean floor to just above freezing, which, as it happens to be, is the temperature that ocean floor currently is at.

Isn't it great how things work out?


Another weird thing that does happen at the bottom of the ocean is that methane hydrate, normally a gas at temperatures above freezing exists in solid form. This is basically methane ice and when it breaks loose it floats to the surface where it evaporates. During the BP oilspill this stuff causes a lot of problems since it condensed out of the spewing oil and formed solid ice on the equipment, which in turn made the equipment buoyant and blocked the pipes trying to suck up the oil.

Sheets of this stuff exist in vat quantities in the ocean rocks and if they where to be released by a massive earthquake could create apocalyptic climate change. If you could somehow mine it in a practical way it would also be a great source of energy.


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## Michael Pawelek (Jun 4, 2012)

Gee, All I asked was, "How fine Do You Filter Honey?"
opcorn:


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Refrigeration works thru a change of state and latent heat. Latent heat being the energy used to change state say from 32 degree water to 32 degree ice or in the case of refrigeration the BTU's absorbed to change the state of Freon from a liquid to a gas without a change in temperature. A release of pressure indeed begins the change of state but it is not from a gas to a gas but a liquid to a gas. High temp, high pressure liquid freon enters the TXV (thermostatic expansion valve) or in the case of more primitive refrigeration an orifice tube, and changes to low pressure liquid and as it passes thru the evaporator it changes state to a low pressure gas (boils) the BTU's it takes to produce this change of state remove heat from the air passing thru the evap thus cooling the space intended.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

NasalSponge said:


> Refrigeration works thru a change of state and latent heat.


This thread is turning into a science workshop. I am loving it.

What happens when you burn propane to refrigerate stakes in your camper? I was camping this weekend.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Acebird said:


> This thread is turning into a science workshop. I am loving it.
> 
> What happens when you burn propane to refrigerate stakes in your camper? I was camping this weekend.


What material were those stakes made from?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I knew the spelling was wrong but I thought Mark would correct me before you. So the race is still on...


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

In my business, drilling deep oil and gas wells, we use an approximation, but a very good one to calculate fluid pressure in psi. It is simply weight of fluid per gallon multiplied by 0.052. Therefore, 12 lb/gal honey would exert 12(0.052), or .624 psi per vertical foot of fluid. That would yield .312 psi per vertical inch of 12 lb/gal honey. This is only pressure and has nothing to do with viscosity.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Pawelek said:


> Gee, All I asked was, "How fine Do You Filter Honey?"
> opcorn:


Pretty fine. At least that's what my customers tell me. That my honey is the finest they have ever eaten.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I was looking for your honey in Fish creek this weekend but I didn't see it unless you have it branded with something other than squeak creek. I though sure I was going to find it.


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

> Originally Posted by Acebird
> This thread is turning into a science workshop. I am loving it.
> 
> What happens when you burn propane to refrigerate stakes in your camper? I was camping this weekend.


Great question. The answer is somewhat complicated and hard to explain but it basically boils down using a liquid with a low boiling point which can evaporate to cool the refrigerator and then be absorbed into a second liquid which forms a new mixture at a low enough pressure so the first liquid can continue to evaporate. The mixture containing the refrigerant is then heated by a propane or other heat source and the refrigerant liquid boils out and is re condensed, giving up the heat that it removed from the refrigerator as well as the heat that boiled it out of the mixture. This leaves you with the original refrigerant liquid which is again cycled through the cooling coils making the system a closed loop. It all is carefully balanced so that only small changes in temperature are needed to create the state changes.

They have the great advantage of working off any heat source and has no moving parts. In theory the same fire that cooks your steaks could also keep them cool.

Fun fact: The only patent Einstein ever held was for a refrigerator of this type.


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

> Gravitation “pull” is acceleration. Pressure is force per unit area.


And force is mass x acceleration which if we are talking about the force gravity leads back to acceleration of gravity and connects gravity with pressure provided you have the all the other information about density height and area.

There is a fundamental connection between all the forces he is describing, just not one you would ever want have to use on a daily basis.




> Smart people do not reinvent the wheel by measuring volume, multiplying volume by density, and then dividing the resultant by the area of the column to calculate pressure. Smart people simply use head multiplied by density. Head is easier to measure than volume, density is easy to look up in any manual, and 2 variables are better than working with 3.


100% correct.

He didn't screw up physics though, he screwed up the idea that math should be elegant

Taken from wiki:

Mathematicians describe an especially pleasing method of proof as elegant. Depending on context, this may mean:

*A proof that uses a minimum of additional assumptions or previous results.
A proof that is unusually succinct.
A proof that derives a result in a surprising way (e.g., from an apparently unrelated theorem or collection of theorems.)
A proof that is based on new and original insights.
A method of proof that can be easily generalized to solve a family of similar problems.
*

The acebird gravity-volume-pressure equations uses:

*Conversely, results that are logically correct but involve laborious calculations, over-elaborate methods, very conventional approaches, or that rely on a large number of particularly powerful axioms or previous results are not usually considered to be elegant, and may be called ugly or clumsy.
*


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Back to the OP, the viscosity would be the problem with going through a fine sieve.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Nabber86 said:


> Close enough? Are you not the same guy who ripped me a new one in the tailgater for misstating electrical terms such as kilowatt-hours, and then went on to berating me about coulombs and joules?? So I guess it is OK to give a pass to people who screw up basic Newtonian physics? Nice moderation!


Yup, that was me, got expelled for it too. I like Mark. He's a good guy. And he looks like Santa Claus. Never can be too careful.:lpf:

I'm not a moderator outside of TFB. I believe I mentioned that before.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

NOW I understand what is meant by staying on topic!:applause:



Michael Pawelek said:


> Gee, All I asked was, "How fine Do You Filter Honey?"
> opcorn:


LOL, Michael. Been there, done that!

CC - haaaaaaaa! I think a PERFECT and appropriate addition!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I was looking for your honey in Fish creek this weekend but I didn't see it unless you have it branded with something other than squeak creek. I though sure I was going to find it.


Where is Fish Creek? We don't cover all of the Adirondacks.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> Back to the OP, the viscosity would be the problem with going through a fine sieve.


Not if heated.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> I like Mark.


I like you too. How did I get tossed in here? lol


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Solomon Parker said:


> I'm not a moderator outside of TFB.


You could have fooled me if I wasn't so old.

Mark, Fish Creek Ponds Campground.



> Back to the OP, the viscosity would be the problem with going through a fine sieve.


Oops, another lesson. Viscosity is a resistance to flow not a blockage. It will pass but it will take longer. The problem with a fine sieve is the particulate will block it. The way to prevent it is to have several sieves in series from coarse to fine as would be done with a soil sample trapping each size particulate without plugging the sieves.
Temperature reduces viscosity which would increase flow. And pressure increases flow so it can be done by temperature, pressure, a combination or nothing but time.



> Smart people simply use head multiplied by density.


Head is a function of gravity. Many people have heard the word but don't understand what it means so they make errors in their logic.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> I like you too. How did I get tossed in here? lol


Apparently I'm nicer to you than everybody else. Why don't you tell them how biased I am giving you passes all the time.:lpf: :lpf::lpf::lpf::lpf::lpf::lpf::lpf::lpf:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes, apparently you are nicer to me than everybody else, but, what no one else realizes is that I am just plane nicer period.   lol


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I guess Ijust have to spell it out....

*"Hydraulic head* or *piezometric head* is a specific measurement of liquid pressure above a geodetic datum. It is usually measured as a liquid surface elevation, expressed in units of length, at the entrance (or bottom) of a piezometer."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_head

Also, we are talking about the fluid _dynamics_ context of head, so dont go there. Changing the subject (or the _context_ of the subject) when one is backed into a corner is a weak tactic and another logical fallicy.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Aerindel said:


> And force is mass x acceleration which if we are talking about the force gravity leads back to acceleration of gravity and connects gravity with pressure provided you have the all the other information about density height and area.
> 
> There is a fundamental connection between all the forces he is describing, just not one you would ever want have to use on a daily basis.
> 
> ...


What I was responding to was the comment made by Ace where he clearly states that pressure is called gravity pull. I do not care how you want to twist it, gravity is not pressure. Period.



Acebird said:


> When you are straining *you are using pressure it is called gravitation pull *which decreases by the volume. Neither requires heat. Heat just makes it faster by lowering the viscosity of the honey.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> Head is units of distance (vertical) and is completely independent of gravity.


So the head or head pressure on a liquid in space is what now?:scratch:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I suggest two members duke it out in private. Stop the name calling.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

You may wish to filter/strain/skim/remove more of those pesky bee bits from your honey after reading this. 
http://www.christopherseddon.com/2009/01/****-ergaster.html

“KNM-ER 1808, cranial and post-cranial remains, discovered in 1973 by Kamoya Kimeu, believed to be 1.5 million years old. These remains are thought to be from a female and show coarse bone growths suggesting hypervitaminosis A, a lethal condition arising from excessive Vitamin A consumption. This could have arisen from consumption of carnivore liver or *possibly bee brood.* That KNM-ER 1808 survived long enough for the pathology to show up in her bones implies that she was cared for by others of her own kind….”

More of the same. http://books.google.com/books?id=7Z...page&q=bee brood vitamin a long bones&f=false


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## SunWorks (Dec 8, 2010)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> Strain is the correct term. Filtering, especially ultra-filtering is being prosecuted in Florida and other states that have honey laws. The feds are seeking additional revenue also. It is all the result of illegal Chinese importation, but every law was made from someone cheating or being stupid. The good news is Florida beekeepers can bottle and sell honey under the Cottage Food Law up to $15,000 combined food sales from their back door, roadside stands and flea markets/ farmer's markets. Anything beyond that is netting Florida $5000 per violation and they "stop sale and hold" the product.


The sweeping generalizations here are very shallow. Wish there was a thumb's down response available.


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