# Smoke or No smoke



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

You won't be disturbing the cluster or pulling frames. A few guards may fly out to investigate when you pop the top but nothing too serious. Does the hive need a sugar board? If you are convinced that they will starve without it go ahead and put it on. Otherwise I'd leave the hive shut.

It is in the upper 30s here right now. I intend to walk the bee yards today and look for signs that the bees are doing their thing. I may heft some hives if I suspect they are light on stores, but most of my looking will be for dead bees that have been removed from the hive (a good thing as that means there are live bees to do the removing)

To answer your question on smoke, it should not be necessary.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Always smoke as calm bees are happy bees. At 50F I would:
1) Check the entrance to make sure your reducer is not plugged with dead bees ( expect to find dead bees from the winter cluster)
2) Puff a bit of smoke in the entrance and listen for a buzz. 
3) Are their a few dead bees, a pile of dead bees fresh bees on the ground, A pile may mean starvation.
4) is there defecation on the front of the hive/bottom board - could mean dysentary - if so research and address
5) Give a little heft at the rear - still should have most of it's season weight as brood rearing will start in about 2 weeks in your area nomrally and still months of brood rearing before coltsfoot in March.
6) Pop the lid - puff of smoke, if your are running doubles are the bees in the top or the bottom. If they are in the top might be getting low on stores. Can you see capped honey?? Expect a few guard bees to do a frontal assault.
7) How many frames does the cluster cover. 4 frames is good - 3 frames is a maybe and less is a future dead out
8) Is their moisture on the lid, if so, ventilate by raising the lid by proping the cover
9) Is your bear fence working????

Make a list of issues, feed ASAP if needed with warm 2:1 syrup on top and plan your next visit.

You are smart to check early, you can break a cluster at 50F if you find an emergency and This list is what I'd do. A little sugar on the inner cover even for a stocked hive never hurts.

Go home , make a good cup of brew and revel in the knowlege your girls are alright and you've done all you can until the next warm spell!


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

Joel said:


> feed ASAP if needed with warm 2:1 syrup on top and plan your next visit.


The OP is in Massachusetts, so he may want to consider using a candy board or dry sugar instead of syrup.


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## Hawkster (Apr 16, 2010)

Other than lifting to check weight I would not do anything unless that indicated an issue. It is going to be cold this week so the less disturbance the better. I have never used smoke in the winter.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

If you are going to add a candy board or sugar I would have the smoker lit and ready to go before popping the top. If they are down below you won't need it. Sometimes you'll open one up and find the cluster at the top. A quick puff of smoke will keep them calmer and encourage them to move down off the top bars, making it easier for you to add your sugar. 

I also agree that is the hive feels heavy when lifting, just leave them alone. But if you do need to add sugar just make it quick.


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## Wesbee (Oct 16, 2012)

I made a mt camp to feed sugar later when it got warmer. but, my bees have been up by the top enterance for some time so I thought i should do it sooner. so last wk it got up to 36 degrees I didnt want to open up, so I cut a 1/8 in panel the size of the hive. lifted the top (quilt) a 1/8 inch slid the panel in very slowly, took quilt off ,placed mt camp on, then the quilt on it and pulled the panel out, never exposing the bees ( I wet the sugar when I filled it, so it had set and was hard on the outside so it did not fall down on the bees)


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Tip the hive and learn to asses its wight. You will get better with practice. 
No need to smoke for quick interventions.
The advice for South Carolina is very good for SC but not for MA. No smoking in the winter. put the veil. Open the top and if you see the bees in the inner cover or close you may need feeding dry, not liquid. It is mid January. You can feed only fondant, candy or dry sugar.

Gilman


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would probably light the smoker and probably not use it... a little smoke in the air can make a big difference and if there is a response, a puff across the top will quickly quell it.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Joel your recommendations are not acceptable for all locations. You can't feed sugar syrup in Me. or Mass. this time of year. And like Mike B. indicated you should always have your smoker lit. I've got the hell stung out of me before doing winter inspections. I don't suit up like a spaceman but still.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

computer issue


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

again - one more try


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Riskybizz said:


> Joel your recommendations are not acceptable for all locations. You can't feed sugar syrup in Me. or Mass. this time of year. And like Mike B. indicated you should always have your smoker lit. I've got the hell stung out of me before doing winter inspections. I don't suit up like a spaceman but still.


Risky - Your response is not acceptable in all locations. 

I was addressing a new beek in mass. facing a 50F day and several warm days to come. I should have addressed the methodoly we use for emergency winter feeding and by the way - since we've used it for 20 years in one of the coldest micro-climates in the north east I would suggest it is very acceptable. Nothing against sugar boards as supplmental feeding, I was addressing emergency feeding should he find starvation. We cover the rest of the list in the same region. Not sure about the smoke aspect of your post but I puff a little at the entrance, a little under the top cover and on any warm winter day I may open 30-40 hives and in ALL locations I never get the **** stung out of me. 

Here in the Finger Lakes we winter 175 singles (1/2 our total hives) in one of the coldest micro climates in the region. We frequently have a few hives which due to mid season queenlessness or a dearth area might be starving in January. Our goal is to get quantity feed into the cluster as when the temps fall into the teens the cluster will reduce and a hive will starve with honey, feed jars, or a sugar board, two inches away. We place 4 quart jars of warm feed directly over the cluster on the top bars on 1/8 inch sticks. At 25 - 30F the cluster will still be glued to the jars feeding and will take as much as a 1/2 quart of warm feed a day and 1/4 quart when it turns cold. I would guess at his temps he could top feed as much as a gallon into the cluster, then throw on his sugar board for good measure. 

That's just how we do it - not meant to work in all locations - but in Mass, at 50F ........


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## Ledge (Dec 15, 2010)

I put some dry sugar on two hives yesterday when the temp was well in to the 50's, and was very glad to have had my smoker and veil. One hive didn't care that I was there. The other...yow! Lit me up in good shape.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I'm with Michael on this one. Lite it and have it ready, likely not use.

As a good illustration, Saturday, Kentucky Temp 71 degrees, I drove past my Stovall Brood Stands just looking to see that the landing boards were clean, and to see an occasional dead bee at the entrance. As I stopped in front of hive number 11, the bees boiled out of the hive and attacked my White Tahoe, (ever notice how slowly electric windows work), In line with this thread, I thought man, if I had been on the ground, rather than in a vehicle, I would have been in trouble. 

Better to be prepared, and not need the smoke, than to need the smoke, and not have it available. Winter bees can become angry bees quickly.

cchoganjr


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

I get a bit old fashion about smoking this time of the year. 
In CT the average highest temps are in mid 30 F in mid January. The Cluster is tight and with some lack the queen has started laying or will start soon. 
If we open the hive this time of the year there are bee that are going to fly for a short time and able to sting us. We can avoid getting stung by dressing properly and limiting the time the hive is open.
We can lit the smoker in case things go really wrong but using it this time of the year will disrupt the cluster will make them consume more and we will be on the mercy of the weather for the cleansing flights.


Gilman


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## Markwell (Jan 17, 2013)

bleta12 said:


> Tip the hive and learn to asses its wight. You will get better with practice.
> No need to smoke for quick interventions.
> The advice for South Carolina is very good for SC but not for MA. No smoking in the winter. put the veil. Open the top and if you see the bees in the inner cover or close you may need feeding dry, not liquid. It is mid January. You can feed only fondant, candy or dry sugar.
> 
> Gilman


Yeah i agree, no smoke. They are calm as it is.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> using it this time of the year will disrupt the cluster will make them consume more 

I don't believe they will. I open a lot of hives with and without smoke all the time and see no difference in the number of bees with their heads in the cells. I think the idea that smoke makes them consume honey is a theory that Langstroth came up with to explain why they didn't sting when smoked. I see no evidence that it is true.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Dean's Bees,
Well, how did it go? Just curious if you decided to use the smoker and how things went for you.


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## Deans Bees (Feb 27, 2012)

Thanks for everyone response... Did not go in because it was cloudy and only hit 41. So I lift the back to get an idea on weight. They should be ok.. Monday temp. went to 50 and all hives were out enjoying the day..so as I...Put the electric fence on just in case the skunks were out wondering around that night looking for a quick meal. But in the future I will alway light just in case.

Thanks again


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

I don't believe they will. I open a lot of hives with and without smoke all the time and see no difference in the number of bees with their heads in the cells. I think the idea that smoke makes them consume honey is a theory that Langstroth came up with to explain why they didn't sting when smoked. I see no evidence that it is true.[/QUOTE]

Smoking the cluster will distrupt the colony activity for hour or even a day in 80 F in the middle of summer. The same think applys in the winter. Every hive disruption, including smoking in the middle of winter has negative affects on the colony, honey consumption is the main one. I see that evidence in the summer, we all can see it in the summer. By disruption I mean the bees react to smoking by stopping doing what they were doing or naturally will be doing if not smoked.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

bleta12 said:


> I see that evidence in the summer,


Could you explain the evidence you see in the summer.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Smoking the cluster will distrupt the colony activity for hour or even a day in 80 F in the middle of summer.

And not smoking them can disrupt them for a week. I've seen hives that were still mad a week later when they weren't smoked. I have not seen that when they were.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

It was 0 F this morning in CT. These low temperatures are going to have an strong impact on week small colonies. 
I hope we have enough colonies to smoke in the spring.

Gilman


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

bleta12 said:


> It was 0 F this morning in CT. These low temperatures are going to have an strong impact on week small colonies.
> I hope we have enough colonies to smoke in the spring.
> 
> Gilman


-2° here. I agree with Gilman, I checked all my hives during the warm spell, added sugar cakes as needed and never lit my smoker. Got a couple stings because I was sloppy with my veil:no: but I did wear gloves. If you're going to put your hands into the hive you will need them.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I still don't understand the major "disruption" that a puff of smoke creates. If frames are not pulled it seems like the bees go right back to what they were doing within minutes.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Smoking bees saves bees during manipulation. It is irrefutable. I am not talking about using an overly hot smoke and torture quantity application. Learn to properly use your smoker and make everyones life easier.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

I am not against the use of smoke, I am a beekeeper, I use it all the time. In winter time (that was the original question of the thread) I try to limit or eliminate it. It is an extra stress on the colony in the middle of January. 
We all should agree that the smoke disrupts the colony activity, otherwise we use it. It disrupts the defense behavior (that is why we use it not to get stung). Does this disruption is limited to defense of the colony only?
I think it extends to other activities and time. 
Defense mechanism probably is the main instinct of the colony, It has do to directly with its survival. In Nature, survival takes precedent to quality (that is why I think that emergency queen cells are not the best and eventually will be superseded). 
I do not smoke or rarely do , when the bees are in a honey flow. The bees are more forgiving in a honey flow and you don't need to.
We need to use the smoke, but should be aware of its affects. Working with bees with time we learn when to use it, limit or avoid the smoke, instead "one size fits all" approach. When we master that knowledge, we are closer to the art of beekeeping.

Gilman


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I have feral bees, which are nice most of the time and I rarely get stung. I can sit next to the entrance and watch them without a problem. But lifting the inner cover when they are cranky is another thing.


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

".... But lifting the inner cover when they are cranky is another thing...."
therein lies the rub. one seldom knows if they are "cranky" till the cover is lifted. this is especially true for new beekeepers.,thus my blanket recommendation to light one's smoker.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I think it would also be interesting to know which has the more long lasting impact on colony disruption or confusion - a puff of smoke, or alarm pheromone.


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I think it would also be interesting to know which has the more long lasting impact on colony disruption or confusion - a puff of smoke, or alarm pheromone.


That is still one dimensional approach. 
It is getting warmer in CT 12 F. Would you still use smoke in CT today?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Under normal circumstances I would never lift the lid on a hive unless it's flying weather. However, if a colony is about to starve I would remove the lid and add sugar regardless of what the temperature might be.

Pop the lid, a quick puff of smoke to move the bees down off the top bars, add another box, add newspaper and sugar, close it up. In less than a minute you're in and out. Take a peek 10 minutes later and the bees will be back up top and all over the sugar. 

I don't at all consider this a recommended practice for this time of year, but if the bees are facing starvation it's an effective emergency measure. I've had to do it before in the middle of winter, and the bees do survive. Poor management on my part but these things happen sometimes. 

Whether or not to use smoke in this situation ... I guess it depends on your bees. I have a collection of mongrels, survivor bees if you will. They are not aggressive if handled properly, but if I were to remove the lid right now without a shot of smoke to momentarily confuse them, they would probably be pouring out of the hive after me in a defensive action. If I had super calm docile bees there would be no need for the smoke. Know your bees and use common sense


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I still don't understand the major "disruption" that a puff of smoke creates. If frames are not pulled it seems like the bees go right back to what they were doing within minutes.


I agree Mike. I think too often people miss the word "puff". We use a puff (or should I say wiff) at the entrance and and another when we pop the top whatever the time of year. If I have let a hive get to the point I am soliciting an aggressive response by not smoking I consider then I have disrupted the hive. Other than the slight "hum", which helps me estimate strength, I've never seen a winter cluster disturbed by a puff of smoke. When we are loading hives or have to deal with robbing behavior in a yard my son and I always use the word copious for smoking which is intended to solicit a control response. Proper smoking, like a hive tool or a frame feeder, is just another tool in beekeeping and when used properly is very effective with no measuable impact on a hive in cluster or out.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I think it would also be interesting to know which has the more long lasting impact on colony disruption or confusion - a puff of smoke, or alarm pheromone.

I've seen bees that set off an alarm and were still upset a week later. I've never the effect of the smoke wear off in a matter of minutes, certainly less than an hour. I think that's pretty obvious evidence that an alarm upsets them longer than smoke.


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