# 5 frame versus 8 frame hive.



## BeeRanger (May 21, 2015)

I recently did a split and put the bees into a 5 frame nuc. My question is -what is your opinion on the 5 frame vs 8 frame hives. I've heard 5 frame nucs do better since they're in a tree-like space. On the other hand,they can get really tall if they become a big colony. I haven't done much research on 8 frame hives,I just know it's another option for a hive body smaller than the standard 10 frame.

Thanks in advance.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

a 5 frame nuc box is too narrow and tippy to be useful for a hive. it is used just to start a hive. the 8 frame can be used for a permanent hive. one reason the 10 frame became most popular was that the 8 frame was considered to be tippy with 5-6 honey supers added.


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## BeeRanger (May 21, 2015)

Sorry,accidentally reposted


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## BeeRanger (May 21, 2015)

beeware10 said:


> a 5 frame nuc box is too narrow and tippy to be useful for a hive. it is used just to start a hive. the 8 frame can be used for a permanent hive. one reason the 10 frame became most popular was that the 8 frame was considered to be tippy with 5-6 honey supers added.


I've heard the "Fat Bee Man" say that five frame hives are good for the reason that I described in the original post. I just want to know what you think is better of the two.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

I use up to two 5 frame nucs on top of each other, and then transfer to full sized equipment when it is overflowing with bees.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

BeeRanger said:


> I've heard the "Fat Bee Man" say that five frame hives are good for the reason that I described in the original post. I just want to know what you think is better of the two.


Beeware 10 is right, even if he isn't on you tube.

"I've heard the "Fat Bee Man" say" 
Remember what Abraham Lincoln said " you can't believe every thing you read on the internet.":no:


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## dr4ngas (Mar 19, 2014)

Just remember everyone thinks a 5 frames is only to start hives, not to be used as a hive. All the reading I have done states you have to control the 5 frame more often do to swarming. I have started with a 5 frame and intend to use the 5 frame as a hive. Straps will help when they get to tall.


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## my2cents (Jul 9, 2015)

dr4ngas said:


> Just remember everyone thinks a 5 frames is only to start hives, not to be used as a hive. All the reading I have done states you have to control the 5 frame more often do to swarming. I have started with a 5 frame and intend to use the 5 frame as a hive. Straps will help when they get to tall.


I personally like the 8 frames due to weight. I like the medium bodies the most at 7 5/8. Due to weight and center of gravity. But I have recently began to convert to all 8 frame deeps.
I started with the mediums, which were nice to make splits, but it is not cost effective. And I believe you will find it to be more cost effective to go with 8 frame or 10 frame hardware. And with the invention of a hive divider.
http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/Plastic-Hive-Divider-or-Nuc-Maker/productinfo/460/


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## curios1 (Jul 2, 2012)

this summer I have been cutting all my 10 frame deeps to 8 frame. WHY ? because all of my dead outs seem to go to the top of the 
second deep and stop at top and die right next to honey. so I figured I would go to 3 deep hives 8 frame. it instantly gave me an extra 4 frames to work with and only needed 4 more. and would give them another deep to rise through. I have had 5 over 5 deep nucs make the winter. BARELY !
I have also started 2- 8 frame medium hives this year. I think I might try a couple 3 deep 5 frames also.
I think all depends on what you are willing to work with and works best for your style of beekeeping. 
each configuration requires management.


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## curios1 (Jul 2, 2012)

beeware10 said:


> a 5 frame nuc box is too narrow and tippy to be useful for a hive. it is used just to start a hive. the 8 frame can be used for a permanent hive. one reason the 10 frame became most popular was that the 8 frame was considered to be tippy with 5-6 honey supers added.


I always thought the 10 frame was more for a commercial aplication


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

I prefer 8 frame hives for everything but starting a new hive with a split, where I'll use the five frame nucs and move them into 8 frame boxes. Right now I have mostly 8 frame deeps (1 or 2) with medium (6 5/8") supers. I also have three hives that are all 6 5/8" mediums. I like the lighter weight when removing boxes of honey for extraction. I cut down all my 10 frame equipment this summer. I'm not sure if I'll go to all mediums but that is an option in the future.
When I had bees in 10 frame boxes, most of the hives did not draw out the two outside frames (positions 1 and 10) before moving up to the next box so it seemed like a no brainer for me to go to 8 frame hives. I've also had fewer losses over winter using 8 frame hives for the last two years for some reason. This winter may break that rule, so we'll wait and see.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

8 frames are much less popular with commercial but are used by some. they do require more attention for enough food etc. If I were to start again it would be a toss up. you can get more on a truck load.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

To me it depends on the situation. Sometimes the situation of the colony I am splitting from makes a 5-frame nuc a better choice, other times, a larger hive. If the "from" hive has many frames of open brood, and a good nectar flow is on, a larger hive makes sense. Generally I am also adding some new frames.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

BeeRanger said:


> I've heard the "Fat Bee Man" say that five frame hives are good for the reason that I described in the original post. I just want to know what you think is better of the two.


I'm not saying that you didn't hear this, but Don Kuchenmeister (FatBeeMan) is a honey bee breeder and not particularly heavy into honey production. His breeding yard is chock-full of 5 frame nucs. I just watched a video made in his production yard and those hives appeared to be 8 frame deeps and mediums. So if you are certain he recommended 5 frame nuc boxes for production hives, he certainly doesn't follow that advice.

I just came in from my beeyard and and pictured working those hives if they were all twice the size they are now. Working a booming hive that now consists of all 10 frame equipment, 1 deep and 2 medium brood and 2 honey supers would be a nightmare to work and keep ahead of to keep it from getting honey bound. Bracing against the wind that would certainly topple the hive would just be another thing to get in the way and curse on a daily basis. Not to mention the inefficiency of the amount of material required. So no, I don't see any benefit whatsoever to towering stacks of 5 frame nuc boxes.

However, I do love to keep 5 frame nucs around for queen back-up and, since they do require much more frequent inspections and manipulations, they also satisfy the urge to get into a hive even when all the production hives would benefit by simply being left alone. When they get too large, brood frames get pulled for more nucs or for augmenting a somewhat weak hive. Extra frames of honey get harvested or fed to hives that need it. This way, the nucs stay manageable and at a strength to make it through the winter.

So use 5 frame nucs for their intended purpose and give your bees the space they need in more roomy quarters. 

Wayne


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## BeeRanger (May 21, 2015)

->Wayne

I think the debate between 5 frame vs 8 frame hives is over. I talked to a beekeeper at a farmer's market I go to and he said he would go with an 8 frame body(pretty much everyone else's verdict). So I think I'll go ahead and use an 8 frame hive body, at least for overwintering this colony. But out of curiosity,do 5 frame nucs produce more honey vs 8 and 10 frame hives and still can make it through the winter?

Thanks for your and all the others input.[HR][/HR]

First Year Beekeeper.

*-BeeRanger*


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

the 5 frame is just made for nucs. the 8 frame is a hive. two different concepts. but as I say some bees will survive regardless of what the beekeeper does. I think you will like the 8 frames. good luck


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## my2cents (Jul 9, 2015)

http://www.frenchbeefarm.com/splitting-method/


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

@my2cents: Thanks for the link.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I use to use a lot of 5 frame boxes, but they tend to fall over if stacked high. If the queen does well, you are constantly in the boxes removing brood or adding boxes. 

Now I run 10 and 8 frames with a division board feeder for my "starter" hive. I just add a box as normal to account for their growth. That way I'm not wandering around the be yard wishing I had another 5 frame box to add room.

When I had fewer hives, it wasn't a big deal... But more and more, I'm see the wisdom in running a standard size.

I'm still torn on running all 10s or all 8s, but more and more I'm running 10 frame mediums.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

As a breeder / queen rearing specialist, I use 5-, 6- , 8-, and 10-frame boxes, and make "hive dummies" - empty wooden boxes the size and shape of drawn comb frames - to control cluster size-to-hive volume ratio. My 10-frame boxes have slots for partitions and can be used as 3x3-frame mating nuc's, 2x4-frame increaser nuc's with feeder frames, 2x 5-frame increaser nuc's, 3 + 7 breeder queen isolation boxes, or as 10-frame boxes. I like the flexibility of this setup.


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## Stan The Bee Man (Jul 24, 2016)

10 frames are the standard hive box.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I am hobbyist focused on honey production. I started out with 8-frames mediums, but a hive gets too tall when it has a good year with 8-frame equipment. I am 6'1" tall, and even for a person of my height, lifting a full honey super that is already 6' off the ground is hard on the shoulders. This is a "good" problem to have, but I am now switching over to 10-frame equipment because of this. 

Indeed, I am also starting to experiment with 14-frame Dadant Jumbo hive brood chambers this year. I have no results to share, yet, but my thinking is that the queen will lay more eggs with fewer obstacles to discourage her free movement, such as having to crawl over the top bar and span the air gap from a lower frame to an upper frame. I am not saying such spatial interruptions are an absolute bar, but the less time the queen spends looking for empty comb, the more time she spends laying eggs. 5-frame equipment would further exacerbate this negative influence on egg-laying. Note that comb in a hollow tree cavity tends to have continuous stretches of comb, rather than interrupting wood bars and air gaps.

While 5-frame equipment might be good for certain specialized applications including temporary housing while a small hive begins building up, for regular use where a large hive population is wanted, 5-frame equipment would be crazy-small. JMHO.














.


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

My take on the O.P.'s question: What's the point of 5-frame vs. 8-frame vs. 10-frame? I hope that's not an unfair interpretation. Some dancing around the issue has been done with production hive as setting, but I think that doesn't answer his query, as it was stated in the context of splits/nucs.

Production hives get heavy in 10-frame deeps. 8-frame hardware is easier to heft and move around. 5-frame hardware seems to be relatively easy to populate with nucs and expansion is easy in the nucleus hive context by adding a box or two. These moderate-height stacks can be readily clustered for warmth and stability against wind, and for whatever reason, known only to the bees, overwintering success reported by beekeepers seems to be high. Some beekeepers use nucs for brood and comb production, as it is easy to get into the hives and swap out frames for foundation or empty frames to take brood for placement elsewhere. The replacement frames get filled with comb and brood and when "robbed" judiciously by the keeper, the nuc grows but doesn't swarm. Of course, its growth is grafted into other colonies or made into separate nucs, but it's still growing. Generally while being heavily fed as a producer of bees/comb but not honey.

"Different purposes for different size hardware" is how I see it.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

5 frames are good for nucs, but stacking them higher than 2 boxes is not prudent. The bees fill them too quickly on a good flow and they tip very easily. If you're taking splits from them and keeping them to two boxes they're not so bad though but it's better to put growing colonies in larger equipment as it's just more efficient that way on your time and expense.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

BeeRanger said:


> My question is -what is your opinion on the 5 frame vs 8 frame hives. I've heard 5 frame nucs do better since they're in a tree-like space. On the other hand, they can get really tall if they become a big colony.


While the OP did say he did a split, the language above made me think the question was something like: " since 5-frame nucs do so well, why not just use them for everything?"

Hopefully the OP will be along soon to clarify his question.


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## BeeRanger (May 21, 2015)

shinbone said:


> While the OP did say he did a split, the language above made me think the question was something like: " since 5-frame nucs do so well, why not just use them for everything?"
> 
> Hopefully the OP will be along soon to clarify his question.


Your interpretation of my question is close to what I had in mind. At the time, when writing this post, I was going to expand my current population of hives via splits. But instead of purchasing the necessary hive equipment, I built my own. My thought process was of you're going to the trouble of building a hive/nuc, is it more effective to build 5 or 8 frame hives for keeping and growing colonies. Maybe I should have clarified this in my original post.

But various (helpful) answers from more 
experienced beekeepers than me, I went with the 8 frame hives, because I felt it would "fit the bill" best. I have used the 8 frame hive for my "standard" for over a year now and have been satisfied so far. I hope this answers yours and everyone else's question regarding my past concerns.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

BeeRanger - I didn't realize this was an almost 2-year old question when I replied. But, it is great that you replied to let us know what you decided and how it worked out for you.


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## BeeRanger (May 21, 2015)

DerTiefster said:


> "Different purposes for different size hardware" is how I see it.


Thankyou for your descriptive response DerTiefster. Now that I have learned a little (just a little) more, I have come to realize the different purposes/effectiveness for nucs and hives, and now use them more accordingly to the descriptions you stated.


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## MadAnt (Jul 23, 2016)

my2cents said:


> http://www.frenchbeefarm.com/splitting-method/


The link is gone.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

The survival rate on my 4/4 deep nucs is better.
My wintering nucs ten out of fifteen made it this winter.
The full-size about half died. 
Won't make excuses... it is what it is. Rebuilding it all up is sort of fun plus it's pure agony when you have splits and swarms but no equipment to put them. The spring routine is to put all the nucs into full-size boxes so the nucs will be empty when I need them. 
About the time I'm going "what do I need all these nucs for?"...I need them. lol 
Bees are funny like that.


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