# Feeding during flow



## Hevyduty (Feb 8, 2010)

Hello all.
I am a sideliner with about 80 hives (does this make me a sideliner?). Over the last ten years I have learned Quite a bit but I am always looking to learn more. My job requires me to spend a great deal of time driving through the beautiful agricultural areas of the Willamete valley in oregon. Last year I noticed a large local beek with feed jugs on his hives during a flow and was curious as to why. After looking more closely I observed that these hives also had excluders and supers. I considered that there may be a small amount of feed in the jugs to just get the bees started in a new crop if the weather turned wet for a week before the hive was able to put up any stores. this could save the beek an emergency trip to feed in the rain. My thoughts were that he was taking a chance that it would not rain and the hfcs would be stored in the super, this resulting in adulterated honey. After watching very close lately I now see he has added supers and the feed jugs remain. I do know that the crop (meadowfoam) they are in yields lots of very mild honey , almost tastless.
I don't believe he is drawing comb for expansion because the supers are a different size than his brood boxes. 

What legitimate reason would there be to feed and add supers at the same time?


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## Klaus (Apr 24, 2008)

Maybe he like "sugar honey":s


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

have you asked him?


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

Seems like a waste of sugar. And will also effect the taste of the honey. I have also found that when a good nectar flow is on they will leave the sugar syrup alone.
Also according to the author of the book “Bees Besieged “ a beekeeper becomes a sideliner when they hit 25 hives. I personally like Jim Tew’s description of beekeepers. You are either a full time beekeeper or a part time beekeeper.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Sometimes yards have little flow until the main flow. Your bees may end up being on the edge of starvation until the flow kicks in. If you have a couple supers on your hive while feeding in this spring dearth, the bees get accustomed to going through the excluder. If the bees do move any syrup up, they end up bringing it back down and burning it up making bees.

You said it was a large beekeeper. Perhaps they hadn't had time to come back and remove the feeders, and had put on supers early to give the bees room to work when the flow kicked in.

The real question is, why were you close enough to someone else's bees that you could see if they had an excluder on or not? Personally, I wouldn't look kindly on someone snooping around any of my beeyards. (And if you had a legitimate reason to be that close to the hives, you could just ask the beekeeper why they managed their hives that way.)


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Feeders on with honey supers is a no no. Not sure what they are trying to do. If they were worried about starvation they would have the supers off and let the hives pack themselves out before adding supers.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I put my supers on when I shake my packages in, because of two reason. One I run 800+ hive and two I run them in a single deep(it gives the bees room). I feed up to the start of my main flow because if I did they wouldn't have the bees I need for the flow. 
Maybe you should stop and ask why they are doing what they are doing. That is the way I've learned a lot of my tricks. What kind of queen excluder was they using?????:scratch:


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

If they are a large beekeeper, they may not have time to manage that intensively. If you have many hives and time is limited, you give them feed and hope it lasts until the flow starts, and give them supers at the same time so they have a place to store honey once the flow starts.

If you are running a single deep with an excluder, you don't have much time when the flow kicks in.

Hmm...just out of curiousity, how does the original poster know that beekeeper was feeding hfcs in the feeders?

I've seen old honey put into feeders before.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I've used top feeder filled with honey when finishing off boxes of comb honey.
Doesn't really work that great.:doh:


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

You guys can't be saying that it is ok to run feed into supers you plan to harvest? I sure hope not. We run over 4000 hives and don't put on supers if there is feed out just to prevent that type of thing from happening. If you are going to use those supers to feed back to the bees in the fall or remove them once the flow starts that is one thing. I don't want to get into criticizing other beeks on they way they handle their operations but if word gets out that commercial beeks are producing honey made from HFCS it is going to affect the whole industry.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

If the feed will be brought back down into the broodnest and used up before the flow starts, what is the problem?

I think the real question is, how much feed is being given to the bees while supers are on?

How do you feed your bees, alpha? Do you use any frame feeders? Do you pull them before putting on supers? Do you run singles or doubles?

If you are running a single deep, and you spray combs full of syrup (and maybe a frame feeder) and dump packages in, and add a couple supers when you dump the package in, the bees move the food around. Come back to those yards again in 6 weeks and the supers and feeders are bone dry.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Those feeders could be empty and attached to the lids. When the flow is over and supers are pulled the feeders are already in place to be filled(through a hole that has a plug) so they are not wasting time trucking pails in and then back out.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

You do know one of the things they test for is HFCS. I have never come back with any % in my honey. The packers are always looking for something to dock you for, and that would be the big one they would reject all my loads.


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

Ya, there's no justification for feeding if the honey supers are on. ( if that is in fact what was happening). If it's a time issue, run less hives or hire more help.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Who know maybe the beekeeper is doing a foreign honey blend.
I think we need to find out who this beekeeper is and ask. Are they a member of the forum???? I'm not trying to out them, just PM me.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

We run top feeders, open feeding and put in frames of honey which we have from last year from deeps we placed on hives just to have those frames to feed back to the bees. We run double deeps and no we do not run any honey supers with any kind of feed on. We would rather miss the first part of the flow and let them pack it in the deeps then to run supers and take a chance of feed getting into them. 

You guys are trying to justify a really bad practice "hoping" the bees will take the feed down before filling up the supers with nectar. Like 123456 says if you are cutting corners you should cut back the number of hives you run or get help.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Like 123456 says if you are cutting corners you should cut back the number of hives you run or get help._

Does this mean getting rid of high producing yards simply because they are often inaccessible in spring because they are too swampy?


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

No it means not putting on supers when you have feed on. We move hives into high production areas later then others because there is still snow in those areas. We keep them in holding yards and feed them and when the roads are clean and the snow is gone we move them up and put on the supers once they are in place. 

There are ways to do things. I don't know your operation, run it the best you can. But this thread is about running supers with feed on and that is not a good practice, period. You keep trying to justify doing it and if you do there is a chance you will get it in the honey you pull from those supers. You even state "IF the feed will be brought down to the brood nest what is the problem?" The problem is if they don't bring it down you just contaminated the whole market.


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

Countryboy said:


> _Like 123456 says if you are cutting corners you should cut back the number of hives you run or get help._
> 
> Does this mean getting rid of high producing yards simply because they are often inaccessible in spring because they are too swampy?


I wouldn't be surprised if just about every commercial beek has yards like that. I would think most manage without feeding if the honey supers are on.
Not telling anyone how to run their business. Just calling bulls**t on anyone who says there's a good reason to feed with supers on. 
The next step is treating for mites/foulbrood with supers on because yards are difficult to access.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Alpha6 and 1234567 all good points. If you have ever run single deeps for honey production with 5-8 lb of bees they just don't fit in just that one box.
How far does a gal. or two of feed go for that many bees. There is a reason the hives have that many pounds of bees. Without feed the queen stops laying. How much feed does a avg. hive use a month. I know if I need 9 frames of capped brood I feed 5 frames of feed. I know 9 frames of bees won't make me a crop either. 
There is a point that to much feed is to much. :no:


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## Hevyduty (Feb 8, 2010)

Countryboy said:


> You said it was a large beekeeper. Perhaps they hadn't had time to come back and remove the feeders, and had put on supers early to give the bees room to work when the flow kicked in.
> 
> The real question is, why were you close enough to someone else's bees that you could see if they had an excluder on or not? Personally, I wouldn't look kindly on someone snooping around any of my beeyards. (And if you had a legitimate reason to be that close to the hives, you could just ask the beekeeper why they managed their hives that way.)




The jug feeders cannot be left on for travel so they were put on after ariving in this field. 
The hives are positioned about 30 feet from the roadside and the excluders can easily be seen from the road without even slowing.


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## Hevyduty (Feb 8, 2010)

Countryboy said:


> If they are a large beekeeper, they may not have time to manage that intensively. If you have many hives and time is limited, you give them feed and hope it lasts until the flow starts, and give them supers at the same time so they have a place to store honey once the flow starts.
> 
> If you are running a single deep with an excluder, you don't have much time when the flow kicks in.
> 
> ...


When I first saw these hives they were doulde deeps, an excluder, and a single med. super with a feed jug. now they have 2 med supers and the feed jug remains. Local knowlege tells me that it is probably hfcs but no I can't be sure


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Hevyduty said:


> The jug feeders cannot be left on for travel so they were put on after ariving in this field.
> The hives are positioned about 30 feet from the roadside and the excluders can easily be seen from the road without even slowing.


must be some pretty big excluders to be seen from that distance


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## Hevyduty (Feb 8, 2010)

Beeslave said:


> Those feeders could be empty and attached to the lids. When the flow is over and supers are pulled the feeders are already in place to be filled(through a hole that has a plug) so they are not wasting time trucking pails in and then back out.


Seen his trucks running around with palet boxes of jugs , not attatched


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## Hevyduty (Feb 8, 2010)

The Honey Householder said:


> You do know one of the things they test for is HFCS. I have never come back with any % in my honey. The packers are always looking for something to dock you for, and that would be the big one they would reject all my loads.



don't know if the local packer buys any of this variety from him. he sells it at a premium by advertising barrels sized lots in the national mags classified.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

this thread sounds like you have an axe to grind with this keeper.
If you see his truck then you know who he is
How you see an excluder from 30 feet, i have no idea.
You must be getting up and close and personal


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## Hevyduty (Feb 8, 2010)

honeyshack said:


> must be some pretty big excluders to be seen from that distance



Maybe I have exceptional eyesight, maybe the white rims show nicely against the colored boxes, or maybe my job leads to my being given acess to these fields 
Why are you so resistant to my claim that there are excluders? Ok lets just for fun say there may or may not be excluders, what does it matter?.


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## Hevyduty (Feb 8, 2010)

honeyshack said:


> this thread sounds like you have an axe to grind with this keeper.
> If you see his truck then you know who he is
> How you see an excluder from 30 feet, i have no idea.
> You must be getting up and close and personal



Sorry guys I simply wanted to know if I was missing something. As I now find my self on the defensive I think I will take a break and give up on this issue. thanks to the guys that tried to help me learn something new.


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

honeyshack said:


> this thread sounds like you have an axe to grind with this keeper.
> If you see his truck then you know who he is
> How you see an excluder from 30 feet, i have no idea.
> You must be getting up and close and personal


 Yup, seems theres more to this than an innocent inquiry.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Hevyduty said:


> don't know if the local packer buys any of this variety from him. he sells it at a premium by advertising barrels sized lots in the national mags classified.


Sound to me that you know the beeekeeper better then your letting on. Instead of driving around stocking him, maybe you should stop and ask him WHY.


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

Honeyshak: I can easily see my queen excluders form 30 feet. Being far sighted I just need my glasses to see them from 2 ft. :lpf:


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Hevyduty- Do not give up. Please, go ask POLITELY if he is feeding with supers on. If so, this needs to be discouraged. There is no sense fighting the "funny honey" from abroad, if there are people making it here. I feel it is important that American honey is all real. Otherwise all honey is the same, and the consumer can buy "honey" that enters our country for $1.03. I can not make real honey for that price.

Roland


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Roland said:


> Hevyduty- Do not give up. Please, go ask POLITELY if he is feeding with supers on. If so, this needs to be discouraged. There is no sense fighting the "funny honey" from abroad, if there are people making it here. I feel it is important that American honey is all real. Otherwise all honey is the same, and the consumer can buy "honey" that enters our country for $1.03. I can not make real honey for that price.
> 
> Roland


You know it was only less then 4 years ago that the price was $.97. I remember when I sold for $.38 a lb. That might show my age a little.


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## Hevyduty (Feb 8, 2010)

honeyshack said:


> this thread sounds like you have an axe to grind with this keeper.
> If you see his truck then you know who he is
> How you see an excluder from 30 feet, i have no idea.
> You must be getting up and close and personal


Ok guys,
I have given your comments some thought and Yes I may have an ax to grind. I believe that this guy may be producing funny honey and selling it to unsuspecting buyers.I don't see how the honey could not be mixed with whatever he feeds. 

My ax is the same ax that all honey producers who care about the quality of the honey they produce and the publics view of local honey should be grinding.

I am a very small fish in a small pond and I am not yet willing to confront this issue head on.


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

Sticking a nose in someone else's business seldom ends well for the 'sticker'.
I had a competitor come in and buy a jar of honey a few years ago. He told me he was going to get it 'tested'. I charged him double for the honey and told him if he ever set foot on my property again I was going to run him down with my truck. Haven't laid eyes on him since. opcorn:


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## kiwiBee (Jul 23, 2009)

Hevyduty,
I can understand how you're feeling about this but it's probably best not to approach the guy about it because it will only cause trouble for you.

The only thing you can do is to make the best honey you can and stand by the quality of your own product. 

This other beekeeper may or may not get his come uppance one day,
but you can make a name for yourself in your area by providing top quality honey and hold your head high at the same time.

kiwi


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

i guess i'm not saying it's ok to feed with boxes on but, we don't have a magic crystal ball that will tell us when the main flow will start. there have been a times when we have had to do an emergency feed because the weather became bad and the bees were only 2-3 days of making honey. i would rather take the risk of feeding them with the boxes on than letting them starve down and miss a honey crop. weak hives don't pay the bills very well


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## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

Almost off the topic at this point, but meadowfoam is far from flavorless.
It has a very strong marshmellow flavor, Its my wifes favorite honey and several people I work with. Glorybee in Eugene sells it and buys it from the beekeeper in question I believe. We usually buy a 3.5 gal bucket every other year. The fields are white with the flowers right now.


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## Hevyduty (Feb 8, 2010)

BGhoney said:


> Glorybee in Eugene sells it and buys it from the beekeeper in question I believe. .


let me be very clear here. There are many large operations in this area and I have been very carefull not to give out the name of the operator in question. you can speculate all you want but please do not claim from my posting that you know who I am talking about. 
Thanks


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Give this guy a break guys!

I ALWAYS look into my neighbour beekeepers yard when driving by to see whats up.\

Come to think about it , I also look at my neighbours fields, into neighbours pastures. 

Not a thing wrong with it.

Now to his question about feeding while supered up. Its a good question. It happens all over the place, and is a credible practice done among many. I see it here.
I dont do it my self. 
But it goes along the line of sending syrup down to a big nest, while providing space for the pending brood hatch. Surip is consumed , not stored, and pails taken off while the bees expand the nest and start back filling the brood nest with the on coming flow.

If you have a massive 2 box hive, 4-5 farmes brood about to hatch, with little stores, by adding a super for space, and feeding a gallon of syrup. How much syrup do you really think will be stored in the super? A hungry low store hive will Always back fill its brood nest before storing above in surplus. 

Like I say, I dont do it, but its practiced by many beekeepers big or small.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

funny thing about calling this a "credible practice".

ask a beekeeper, and feeding sugar (at all...supers on or no) is a credible practice.

ask many "commercial" beekeepers, and feeding with supers on is a credible practice.

now, ask someone who buys honey...such a practice is so "not credible", that any beekeeper would change the subject (and even lie) to avoid "cluing" the consumer in on all the "credible practices" used to produce the honey they are buying.

of course beekeepers talk to consumers all the time...how nice the bees are, how it doesn't really hurt much getting stung, how much they love their bees, how important bees are for pollination, how good honey is for your health....a show of hands...how many tell consumers that bees are fed sugar?

another show of hands...how many tell consumers that bees are fed sugar with supers on?

deknow

deknow


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

so then i guess it would be better to let the hive starve down and start pulling brood and miss out on a honey crop? and as far as the guy maybe looking at other operators hives, who hasn't done that before. i'm pretty sure that almost commercial operator has been a little snoopy from time to time.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

When someone asks me why I'm buying so much sugar, making candy, or whatever, I reply "I'm making honeybees!" After they get over the shock, I explain that I feed them to get them to make more bees. Then I stop feeding them at the appropriate time, and they start gathering their "rent" for me! :lpf:

I was at the dentist today, and she asked how I collect the rent. I said there's a spigot on the side of the hive, and when there's enough honey, I put a bucket under the spigot and drain the honey. Then I winked... she was actually buying that concept! :lpf: So I explained how it really worked. Ya simply gotta be honest, and have a sense of humor!

If you don't explain it, folks do think you're turning sugar into honey. 
Regards,
Steven


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## Illinois (Feb 23, 2007)

There may be less public resistance to the concept than you might suspect. Every other livestock is now on a feedlot. Many folks probably expect that bees are also.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

mmmm, i talk to hundreds (if not thousands) of people a week at markets and such...including many tourists and students from all over the world.

nonbeekeepers find it shocking that bees are fed sugar, and moreso wrt hfcs. people pay for honey instead of hfcs or sugar syrup because they don't want sugar or hfcs.

despite what many people now know about how food is produced (monocrops, feedlots, chickens that can't walk, poorly treated migrant workers, etc), honey still enjoys a reputation as perhaps "the last pure food". 

people who buy from beekeepers are universally convinced that their beekeeper would never feed sugar/hfcs...and certainly not use treatments. in many (if not most) cases, the beekeeper has some hives, but buys most of their honey from those that are referred to in another thread as "feed feed feed and treat treat treat...and extract from the broodnest".

deknow


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

I think it is one thing to have feed on the bees before the bees are storing and capping honey up in the supers...and it is a totally different thing to feed the bees continuously during the flow to make sugar syrup honey.

I don't think any reasonable beekeeper intentionally feeds their bees if they think the feed will end up in the supers. They are doing emergency feeding, or trying to build up, or the flow came earlier than expected and they still had feed on.

It's a totally different scenario when beekeepers intentionally put (or leave) feeders on, knowing the feed is going to end up in the supers.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

I still don't understand feeding with supers on. I talked to a couple of the bigger commercial beeks in Colorado this last week and none feed with supers on...none. As a matter of fact it was pointed out that if a flow is on why need feed at all. And if there is no flow why have supers on? If you have feed on and the flow is getting ready (ie - weather turns warmer and blooms are starting) then pull the feed and slap on supers. We run thousands of hives and can get them on pretty quick with a few guys. Maybe here out west we do things different because of how our flows work and we get a fairly good one all summer from different sources. Anyhow, I am sure others are doing the best they can, I just hope that no one is "intentionally" adding feed to get weight on on honey supers. Like I said before this will hurt all of us in the business if something like that comes to light in public.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

There is a big difference between feeding sugar to encourage/maintain growth or prevent starvation and feeding sugar to put weight on in the supers. I know of *no* beekeepers who justify the latter. 
Anyone doing so will hopefully be "outed" by their honey being tested and rejected.

This topic has been discussed at length here recently. While some don't think any sugar should be given bees, the_ appropriate_ feeding of sugar IS a commonly accepted and necessary practice amongst beekeepers, both commercial and otherwise. Anyone implying that the feeding of sugar automatically results in adulterated honey is either misinformed or, more likely in my view, interested in promoting a personal agenda to the detriment of the industry as a whole. 
Sheri


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

We could solve this whole speculative controversy if the original poster would quickly develop a set of gonads and go ask the beekeeper in question. What can he do? Punch you out for asking a simple question? When you guys get jury duty do you convict the defendant before the trial ever starts?


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

fish_stix said:


> When you guys get jury duty do you convict the defendant before the trial ever starts?


No, but I always get dismissed. When we are all in the jury room before they even get started I raise my hand and say "Um excuse me...where are they going to build the gallows so I can watch." It's always bailiff...escort him out. Go figure.


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## Hevyduty (Feb 8, 2010)

fish_stix said:


> We could solve this whole speculative controversy if the original poster would quickly develop a set of gonads and go ask the beekeeper in question. What can he do? Punch you out for asking a simple question? When you guys get jury duty do you convict the defendant before the trial ever starts?


Come on guys'

I just wanted to learn if supering and feeding at the same time was an accepted practice. Now my manhood is called into question? I won't go into this any deeper but a direct confrontation could put my job in danger. I can't take the risk of that, my family needs to eat.


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

A lot depends on location. Here, our bees build up on the dandelion flow so they have plenty of nectar coming in long before they need more space. So when I said that feeding with supers on can't be justified, understand that the opinion is based on my experiences in Ontario.

There's a lot of different climates in North America where spring management has to be adapted to the local. 

Contrary to what some here have said about comm. beeks. Personally I've never 'snooped' on other beeks. I still think it's best to keep ones nose out of other peoples business.


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

1. He is feeding the bees to build stores for them or other hives as needed. I, as some other beeks I know feed nuck with a capped frame of honey.
2. He is feeding the bees to make honey for sale. Bad but it is done.


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## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

I'm not pointing out anyone, you stated meadowfoam had no flavor.
why mention the crop. I also the know the add your taking about and I've talked the the beekeeper in the past. Thats why I said I believe. I talked to glory bee yesterday, they have 38 3.5 gal buckets in store. If anyone is looking, and I have been asked where you can buy it. I will be getting a bucket or 2 when I head down. The weather has been very very bad the last 2 weeks.


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## Throttlebender (Mar 30, 2010)

Illinois said:


> There may be less public resistance to the concept than you might suspect. Every other livestock is now on a feedlot. Many folks probably expect that bees are also.


And most people that I know hate this practice but begrudgingly tolerate it because they feel they have little choice if they want to eat. Honey, on the other hand, isn't a necessity food.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

*Beekeeping Political Correctness?????*

There are many thousands of hives in Meadowfoam at this time.
Most of them have honey supers on since cherries to make room for bees and ALL OF THEM ARE BEING FED SYRUP. 
Nothing is being stored in the supers. In fact a gallon a week dissappears and many are on the brink when the next gallon is fed 7 days later.
What has not been explained in this thread for those of you around our great country is that we have had WEEKS of solid low temperatures and rain. Day after day after day after day; rain, rain rain.
Our hives are completely out of stores.
Do you think we are going to remove supers, compress the bees into a crowded state, and then feed them into swarming just for you?!!
The bees move the syrup directly around the brood nest. IF there were to be one drop in the supers, that too would be moved to the brood nest.
Come on fellow beekeepers! Think!!!
Different circumstances often require unusual solutions.
Not one drop of sucrose is going to be stored in the supers.
In fact, once our main flow starts here in Oregon, there will be a lot of storage in the brood nest WELL BEFORE anything makes it ineo the supers.
Thats just how light they are.
Not feeding with supers on is a rule of thumb that we all live by and understand. But we also have eyeballs and brains that we should put to good use whenever possible.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

*Re: Beekeeping Political Correctness?????*



HarryVanderpool said:


> we have had WEEKS of solid low temperatures and rain. Day after day after day after day; rain, rain rain.
> Our hives are completely out of stores.
> .


AH heck, it's great down here, 55 degrees and a light rain.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

After two weeks of rain and 55 deg weather its been in the upper 80 here for past two days. It's about time, only have 8 barrels of feed left!!!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

So ya, Hevyduty

I think you got your answer. Its all about understanding whats actually going on in the hive and how the bees will react. If we understand what he is actually trying to accomplish, and under certain contitions, we will understand the situation he is managing. 

There is no blanket method of keeping bees.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_And if there is no flow why have supers on?_

You can only fit so many bees in a box. Some people only run a single deep, and if you have several frames of brood emerging, the bees need somewhere to go.

_I won't go into this any deeper but a direct confrontation could put my job in danger._

Then don't be confrontational.

Tell the guy you are a beekeeper too, and start talking about feeding. Ask him the pros and cons of feeding with the pails. As the discussion goes along, maybe ask him when he stops feeding.

I haven't met a beekeeper yet who didn't like talking about bees. Approach him to talk about bees and management techniques, rather than being confrontational, and I highly doubt your job will be in jeopardy.


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## Hevyduty (Feb 8, 2010)

*Re: Beekeeping Political Correctness?????*

Hello Harry, 

This is the kind of information that I was looking for. I guess an argument could and has been made that this situstion is normal and regionaly accepted. Thanks


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## kiwiBee (Jul 23, 2009)

LOL Hevyduty there's no such thing as a simple answer on Beesource 

Kiwi


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

"...COOL SHOWERY WEATHER TO CONTINUE THROUGH FRIDAY BUT DRYING OUT AND TURNING WARMER FOR THE MEMORIAL DAY WEEKEND...

A STORM OVER THE NORTHEASTERN PACIFIC OCEAN WILL CONTINUE TO SEND CLOUDS AND PERIODS OF RAIN INTO NORTHERN CALIFORNIA AND SOUTHWESTERN OREGON OVER THE NEXT FEW DAYS. IT WILL ALSO REMAIN QUITE COOL FOR LATE MAY WITH HIGH TEMPERATURES ACROSS THE REGION AVERAGING ABOUT 10 TO 15 DEGREES BELOW NORMAL. SNOW LEVELS THROUGH FRIDAY WILL MOSTLY RANGE BETWEEN 4500 AND 5500 FEET..." Acuweather.com

Normally Oregon beekeepers are experiencing a strong flow this time of year and have worked hard to build large populations to take advantage of ample blooms. Large populations represent a lot of mouths to feed and the weather is definitely out of sync with what large hive populations require, so bee careful out there and don't let those bees starve because of a severe protracted weather anomaly. It has been freakishly cool for a very long time. Feed on!


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> There is a big difference between feeding sugar to encourage/maintain growth or prevent starvation and feeding sugar to put weight on in the supers. I know of *no* beekeepers who justify the latter.
> Anyone doing so will hopefully be "outed" by their honey being tested and rejected.


sheri, in the thread where "the topic has been discussed at lenght", did you not become aware both a beek feeding hfcs into the honey supers _and_ a beek feeding (and treating) and then extracting from the broodnest? or do you not believe michael?

as far as testing, i'd suggest you call the lab (phone number posted in that other thread) and have a chat about honey adulteration and what they are seeing....we did, and they were very friendly and talkative. hint: rice syrup doesn't have the distinctive carbon profile that hfcs does. they don't have a definitive test for rice syrup adultration but they are commonly seeing carbon profiles that are not proper for pure honey. rice syrup fits the bill, but without a definitive test for rice syrup, the lab can't make an offical "rice syrup adultration" determination, and the packers are often contractually obligated to buy honey that is adulterated with rice syrup (because they can't prove what the honey is "cut" with even though everyone involved knows there is a problem).



> While some don't think any sugar should be given bees, the_ appropriate_ feeding of sugar IS a commonly accepted and necessary practice amongst beekeepers, both commercial and otherwise.


"commonly accepted and necessary practices" are often later shown to be problem. my point about the feeding of sugar in general (as opposed to feeding with the supers on) is that people that buy honey are shocked to learn that bees are fed sugar (or hfcs). yes, it's commonly accepted among beekeepers, but beekeepers know that they shouldn't let their customers (or consumers in general) know about this.




> Anyone implying that the feeding of sugar automatically results in adulterated honey is either misinformed or, more likely in my view, interested in promoting a personal agenda to the detriment of the industry as a whole.
> Sheri


since i'm certain this is directed directly at me, let me say that feeding sugar does not automatically result in adulterated honey. beekeepers, however, could take some very inexpensive precautions to make sure that if honey does get adultrated, that they would know it and it would be unsellable (black food coloring in the feed)...but they never do this. in addition, there is some evidience of a negative effect on the microbial culture in the honey stomach...and those microbes supply some of the enzymes that convert nectar into honey. from the production end it is seen as "harmless" and "necessary"...but of course the same is true of sweat shop labor in the clothing industry, the hiring of illegal aliens for harvesting crops or resturant kitchen help, or even the extent of the emergency systems BP had in place before their rig blew up. i'm not convinced that the "commonly accepted" and "necessary" to the producer is a good enough standard. what do people buying honey think they are getting? are they getting that?

deknow


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## bigeddie (Feb 19, 2008)

If you feed sugar to put weight on supers and sell it as pure honey you are dishonest, if you feed sugar to keep bees alive and raise brood, seems to me its better than letting them die or dwindle away to nothing. 
The people I sell my honey to know that I feed bees sugar and for what reason and are not shocked in the least. The honey I sell comes from flowers and not from a bag.
For those of you who won't feed sugar no matter what, good for you, thats great, but don't lecture those that do feed because you think you know it all. Believe me, we are all the same and have a lot to learn. There is more than one way to keep bees.


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

Now I only see a cpl of hundred customers on a weekend not thousands, but when the question of feeding comes up I tell them they're fed sugar syrup.

Most ask 'why not honey'? I explain that sugar is 50 cents a pound and honey is $3.00 lb. Can't say anyone has ever been shocked. Just educated. And they keep coming back.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>And if there is no flow why have supers on?

>>You can only fit so many bees in a box. Some people only run a single deep, and if you have several frames of brood emerging, the bees need somewhere to go

Thats what I am saying Countryboy,

you can only fit so many bees in a box. 2-3 boxes of bees, needing feed, comming into a flow, is the whole situation. Needed space, needed feed. If the hive needs feed, it will not store the gallon of surip in the supers. It will either consume the feed, then back fill around the brood nest.

thats whats done around here.

Its important that beekeepers know what they are doing when doing this. feeding while the nest if full of honey WILL be stored in the supers.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Its important that beekeepers know what they are doing when doing this. feeding while the nest if full of honey WILL be stored in the supers. _

Good point Ian. I've seen single deep hives that had a frame feeder that was bone dry. The outside frames were dry. The cluster is building slow. With a hive like that, it doesn't matter how many supers are on it - if you fill that feeder, the bees will eat it and it will not be stored in the supers.

I've also seen some hives that had several frames of brood, but virtually no nectar on the frames. You need to feed those bees, and you need to make space for the emerging brood so you add supers.

You have it right though. The beekeepers need to know what they are doing, and they need to know what the bees are doing.


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

it's an accepted old chinese custom.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Silly round eye -"Ancient Chinese secret"(think of 80's TV commercial)


Actually this may be more prevelant than we wish to admit. I went to an auction that liquidated a beekeeping operation that was only a few years old. There where lots of empty Totes that HFCS came in, but no feeder pails or division board feeders. Where did the HFCS go? 

Roland


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

maybe could have been open feeding using barrels or something else


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Roland said:


> Silly round eye -"Ancient Chinese secret"(think of 80's TV commercial)
> 
> 
> Actually this may be more prevelant than we wish to admit. I went to an auction that liquidated a beekeeping operation that was only a few years old. There where lots of empty Totes that HFCS came in, but no feeder pails or division board feeders. Where did the HFCS go?
> ...


You can buy the totes emply too you know. Or who know what had already been sold before they started liquidating. I'm always sell equipment.


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## mbholl (Dec 16, 2007)

This is an excerpt from Joe Traynor "Point of View" Beekeepers Newsletter, April 2010.

"Funny Honey

A few beekeepers (very few) pour sucrose syrup to their bees prior to the orange flow here. The bees add enzymes and store this syrup as they would nectar, with the final product indistinguishable from honey. At current honey prices, converting a tanker load of syrup to a tanker load of honey is profitable for one who’s lust for money trumps qualms about ethics. A large California beekeeper, who shall remain nameless, has developed a reputation for doing this, but such practices are far from the Norm. Carry them too far though, and you sully the reputation of 99.9% of beekeepers who take pride in producing a quality product."

I have heard of other (large) northern Calif beeks, besides the nameless one, who feed during flow as a standard practice; top feeders on honey supers can be seen from road. Hear a good honey crop already being processed. 

Do large packers REALLY have a way to test for HFCS in honey? And do they test? Is there anyway a consumer can test, or tell? - thanks


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

Never heard of Mr. Traynor but, 'I've heard of this', I've heard of that, they shall remain nameless, is fear mongering journalism.
Tell us what you 'know' or quit trying to destroy the integrity of the beekeeping profession.

I feel better now


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Do large packers REALLY have a way to test for HFCS in honey? And do they test? _

Yes. Yes. The packers are always looking for reasons to dock the producer. If they found a little, they'd probably dock you. If they found a lot, they might tell you to keep it. (or tell you to sell it to the packer that doesn't test and who offers a lot less.)


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## borada bee doc (Feb 6, 2010)

Hi everyone. This my first post and an observation regarding this blog. I just returned from the Corvallis meadowfoam where I have 100 colonies. They were strong colonies fed 1:1 syrup 2 weeks ago and 50% are starving today. The neighboring 200 colonies are little better. These are hive and a half colonies that were given their second super 2 weeks ago. There is no nectar flow or more accurately, there are few days of flow and many days of rain and cool temperatures. My field is also mud and water so hives cannot be reached to feed. If I had it to do over again, I would have placed them by the roadside and fed syrup weekly. If I had placed a queen excluder, I could have easily removed the EMPTY top box prior to moving out of this field of nectar devoid white flowers. A number of experienced beekeepers and researchers have commented on the poor weather we are having here in Western Oregon and maybe the beekeeper mentioned earlier has devised a way to keep his bees alive and out of the trees despite the whim of climate change. Or, maybe this is not so, but I wish I had copied his procedure.


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## concrete-bees (Jun 20, 2009)

could be that he has new frames in the supers and is wanting to get them drawn out this year -- thats what im doing - going to feed my slave hives all year long- they will do nothing for me in the form of honey but they will give my drawn frames for next year --- that might be what they are doing ???


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