# Which is better Vaporizer or Fogger with Oxalic Acid tmt for mites?



## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

As far as I know, fogging has no effect at all and has the same kill rate as snake oil. It has been hyped but no one has ever shown that it actually works. Vaporizing works extremely well.


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Alcohol gas phase transition is 75 C. A fogger evaporating alcohol will only heat to 75 C, as the heat of enthalpy will restrict the temperature. 

There is as far as I can tell *no* (as in zero) legitimate controlled research indicating a fogger will do anything except clog up with an evaporite deposit of Oxalic. 

As far as I can tell "alcohol and Oxalic" in a fogger is just ignorant hillbillies doing useless things. Prove me wrong.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

JimD said:


> New to today's beekeeping and see two different approaches for using OA to treat for mites.


There really _are_ two valid approaches "for using OA to treat for mites".

The first is vaporizing (technically 'sublimation') oxalic acid in a "dry" form. Various different design devices are available, but they don't involve mixing with alcohol.

The other approach is to apply oxalic acid mixed with a weak sugar solution directly to the gap between frames in a hive as a "dribble" or "spray". The sugar solution is water and sugar, not alcohol.

If one is not familiar with the "dribble" method, here is a starting point:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-dribble-tips/


----------



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

If you're new to beekeeping, keep it simple and concentrate on using proven methods, for now. 

With applying OA, two methods are proven to work: Dribble and vaporization.

Dribble's main advantage is that it requires nearly no special equipment to apply. However it has a reputation for being slightly harder on the bees and queens because it is delivered into the hive in a form the bees may consume, i.e. sugar syrup. Many beekeepers don't like to use a series of treatments using the dribble method for this reason. 

However, since OA doesn't kill any mites that are under cappings with the pupae at the time of application (and that can be the majority of the total number of mites in the colony at certain times of the year) a series of treatments is generally advised in order to catch successive flushes of mites as they emerge from protection under the wax.

OA "vaporization" aka sublimation, poses no risks to the bees and queens when applied in a series, even repeated treatments, just a few days apart. And it can be applied to the colony without breaking apart the stack to access the bees. This is important because one of the most useful times to treat is in early part of winter.

My advice: get a good quality vaporization wand. My favorite is the Varrox, which costs about $160. That can seem like a steep price, but it is an extremely well-built tool and worth every penny. I started with a "cheaper" wand, but it didn't last. I would have been $$ ahead if I had just bought the Varrox wand from the get-go.

The active and passive burn time for a Varrox wand is a total of 4.5 minutes (this is the time when the wand is tied up servicing a single hive). When you're starting out you won't have enough colonies for that short interval to add up to a significant time burden. I use the time while the wand is treating one colony to prep the next one, so I can move right along. There are much more expensive, and equally high quality, devices that reduce the treatment time to 30 seconds or so, but until your bee yard gets big enough to justify it, a Varrox will work perfectly.

You'll also need a small battery. I use a dedicated lawn mower battery, but some people repurpose old car batteries if weight isn't a concern.

And you must budget for, and always wear, the required personal protective gear: a half-face respirator with ACID GAS canisters and goggles.

When you're shopping for a Varrox be sure to check out BeeSource user SNL's business, Oxavap.com. His customer service is fantastic and his prices competitive.

However, big props for you as a new beekeeper to be thinking ahead to how you are going to be dealing with the mite issue. Too many start out just hoping it they won't have to - then they are faced with a hard-to-manage crisis, or worse.

Good luck and have fun with your bees.

Nancy


----------



## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I have a fogger and vaporizer and used both.Fogger with alcohol and oxalic acid works but it doesnt work near as well as the vaporizer.I would stick with the vaporizer.


----------



## mike17l (Jun 22, 2012)

Excellent answers given:



dudelt said:


> As far as I know, fogging has no effect at all and has the same kill rate as snake oil. It has been hyped but no one has ever shown that it actually works. Vaporizing works extremely well.





JWChesnut said:


> Alcohol gas phase transition is 75 C. A fogger evaporating alcohol will only heat to 75 C, as the heat of enthalpy will restrict the temperature.
> 
> There is as far as I can tell *no* (as in zero) legitimate controlled research indicating a fogger will do anything except clog up with an evaporite deposit of Oxalic.
> 
> As far as I can tell "alcohol and Oxalic" in a fogger is just* ignorant hillbillies* doing useless things. Prove me wrong.


aww... poor fat bee man... lol


----------



## JimD (Feb 3, 2018)

I appreciate the comments. I had bees for a lot of years in the 1960-1990 years but times were simple even thought my Italian bees were never that sweat. 

Time to get back into it. At 70 and still working full time as a dentist, I still have a tendency to research everything with all the different problems beekeeping has now. I do appreciate the help esp with all the utubes pushing fogging as the way to go. 

I do not have a good base line to what is good and works and what is BS.

I have 2 new bee books but my old book was from 1952 that I used all the years. I had couple of hives of bees all those yearsplus my uncle had a lot of hives and helped when needed BUT it was simple back then....

Just sitting waiting for my "Nucs to be ready while building a few boxes and gear. 
BTW- Where is Orange Grove? I had to look on the map. I hunted a lot of South Texas but never been down your road. Do remember seeing a sign for two driving down 59. 


I am in the Spring/Woodlands area of Texas till I retire but I like what I do then I am gone some where to a small town. 

Jim

Cannot wait to see what people think is the best mite resistant bees out there now and if "small cell" bees does really help. 

Anyone ever do a poll on what type of bees each voter uses?


----------



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

The small cell advantage (for any purpose) is not an accepted proven advantage, despite many claims to the contrary. When tested head-to-head, small cell showed no advantage. Bees do not revert to smaller cells when left to their own devices, so claims that foundation, or other pre-formed cell architecture, somehow provide a harmful distortion are incorrect. And that undermines the argument that small cell is somehow more "natural", and thus better. Beekeepers' efforts to force them to use small cells (which is how you get bees to draw small cells) don't seem to confer an any advantage, so why bother?

As far as I know truly "mite resistant" bees are still more of a work-in-progress, than an actual, guaranteed, item. For some reason even bees that do well in a particular area without treatments don't exhibit that same resistance when set up in other areas. It's obviously a complicated, and still not completely understood thing. Honestly, if reliably mite-resistant bees existed right now everybody would buy them and re-queen immediately. 

Until then, I am content with my locally-mated, mutt-girls that all originally arrived on my farm as swarms. 

But I don't underestimate the perils of varroa: I monitor regularly all year round and I manage the varroa population in order to keep their depradations low enough that there is little harm to my bees. It's not a sexy, dramatic solution, but it _works_.

Nancy


----------



## mike17l (Jun 22, 2012)

JimD said:


> Where is Orange Grove? I had to look on the map. I hunted a lot of South Texas but never been down your road. Do remember seeing a sign for two driving down 59.
> 
> 
> I am in the Spring/Woodlands area of Texas till I retire but I like what I do then I am gone some where to a small town.


Yup, a little outside of Corpus Christi, and just outside of Alice. Its a great little town. Bees make some fantastic honey!!


----------



## Swarmhunter (Mar 5, 2015)

Thanks for the stimulation.
Going to try fogging on a couple of high mite count hives after harvest.
Ignorant Hillbilly


----------



## JimD (Feb 3, 2018)

Mike, Swapped an email with the "Fat beeman" and he was in favor of the vaporizer tmt vs fogger for OA use.

I used to run 3 forums of the TKF ( Texas kayaking board) and always like to get different opinions on what works the best. 

Nancy, Thanks for the time. Seen and had several side posts talking about what a nice helpful, and knowledgeable person you are.

Thanks for the help. It is way too much information and marketing out there to try to fig out what works on your own. I shovel thru it at the office everyday on what is the best product for a specific problem or need.


----------



## mike17l (Jun 22, 2012)

JimD said:


> Mike, Swapped an email with the "Fat beeman" and he was in favor of the vaporizer tmt vs fogger for OA use.


Sorry, he only uses the fogger to fog mineral oil (with spearmint oil added), just as, if not more wackadoodle than fogging OA...


----------



## JimD (Feb 3, 2018)

I like The Fat Beeman's posts on utube but wish they were dated better with maybe the month and year up front of the utube or on the title. 

I know and like the fact that Don is always a work in progress but somewhat hard to tell what was a new 2011 post vs new 2018 post some of the time and he is continually changing and rigging to a better way to do things for him. He may look a little older in some of the new utubes but it is hard to tell. 

I like rigging and building my own gear. Just need that base line on what is the better way to do many of the new things.


----------



## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

JWChesnut said:


> Alcohol gas phase transition is 75 C. A fogger evaporating alcohol will only heat to 75 C, as the heat of enthalpy will restrict the temperature.
> 
> There is as far as I can tell *no* (as in zero) legitimate controlled research indicating a fogger will do anything except clog up with an evaporite deposit of Oxalic.
> 
> As far as I can tell "alcohol and Oxalic" in a fogger is just ignorant hillbillies doing useless things. Prove me wrong.


So every fogger that has an alcohol and OA mixture put through it clogs? Because... the evaporite deposits build up and the fogger can't make the deposits sublimate due to never being able to get over 75 C? 

Sounds like some ignorant hillbilly needs to go back to reporting hive thefts.


----------



## colby (Jan 12, 2013)

Hi ,
I have been using oav on 12 hives for several years with very good results.
That said I started oav fogging last year and am waiting to see how the hives look when I can go through them (weather has been a roller coaster to this point)
The one point I would like to make is that in order to do the oa fogging the oa needs to be completely dissolved in the grain alcohol. In order to do this the alcohol needs to be heated to get it to dissolve. (a hot plate works great as there is no open flame.)
As far as the Fat beeman goes, I do like his posts on you tube , but, he has not spent time with oa vaporization. He said his son did not think it worked well.
Also , remember the Fat bee man sells vaporizers..... Just sayin


----------



## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I found fogging to work exceedingly well twice. Most of the time it was mediocre, once in a while nothing worth reporting. If I move all my hives to a single yard this year I might run a pallet of 4 hives that I'll fog on 5 day intervals when they have a mite load. The portability and independence of the unit is great, and if it just works as a knock down, that's all I'm really looking for.

And hey, on the 4th of July two people with foggers and mineral oil can lay down a smoke screen of epic proportions. No need to buy smoke bombs anymore :no:


----------



## blackandtan (Aug 20, 2014)

Vaporiztion is the simplest, most cost effective treatment for the hobby beekeeper. I honestly don’t know why anyone would do differently unless they were rotating treatments from year to year.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

removed, question was answered while i was typeing


----------



## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

rwurster said:


> So every fogger that has an alcohol and OA mixture put through it clogs? Because... the evaporite deposits build up and the fogger can't make the deposits sublimate due to never being able to get over 75 C?
> 
> Sounds like some ignorant hillbilly needs to go back to reporting hive thefts.


I never had any kind of clog when I tried it.It worked for me but just not as well as OAV.It could of been I didnt fog enough or long enough.Also I didnt close the hive off after a quick fog like I do when doing OAV so that may be the reason it didnt work as good.I may test some more this year.


----------



## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I've always used a vaporizer since I started using OA, odd years I dribble in winter when I remember. I used the fogger on one yard last year to test its efficacy with fgmo and everclear/oa. The everclear/oa had extreme varying results on mite knock down, but mostly didn't work too great. But I wasn't watching it too hard as I started it late in the season after seeing absolutely no knock down with fgmo. 

By this July I'll be able to see which of my colonies are dinks and do some sugar rolls on them. If theyre mite bombs I'll do four 5 day interval shots with it on those colonies and we'll see what the results are. I'm not going to hold my breath on it but if it kills 25% of the mites I'll probably use it as a temporary measure in my out yards and in town. It's never going to replace a vaporizer though. From my experience a fogger has nowhere near the efficacy of a vaporizer (or dribble) most of the time. 

The biggest plus for a fogger is its mobility and ease of use as a small portable unit pretty much anywhere.


----------



## Swarmhunter (Mar 5, 2015)

I'm going to use a fogger on 2 or 3 hives in Aug- Sept. I'll be using alcohol and oxalic acid. If it doesn't knock any counts down I'll be dribbling in Sept. and again in Nov. I'll report results. 
rwurster- Let us know your results please!


----------



## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

Rwurster So you laugh at ignorant hillbillies and then use a fogger? What ignorant label do we give you?


----------



## Swarmhunter (Mar 5, 2015)

That was JWChestnut that laughed at Ignorant Hillbillys -Not me.


----------



## Jammer0816 (Jun 15, 2017)

JWChesnut said:


> As far as I can tell "alcohol and Oxalic" in a fogger is just ignorant hillbillies doing useless things. Prove me wrong.


Wow, so you are calling all of us that use foggers ignorant hillbillies? Did I read that right? Man I hope not!

We use a fogger and we are in no shape nor form of ignorant hillbillies.

In our "personal" experience with the fogger, I can say that it did a pretty good job with the mites. We have never used an OAV so nothing to compare to mind you. When we spotted mites on the bottom board, we started researching and came across the fogger. After the first treatment, we noticed an increase in dead mites. Then the numbers started trickling down after subsequent monthly treatments. In my opinion, I consider that a win.

As far as clogging issues, you're not cleaning it thoroughly after use. Only thing I can think of there.


----------



## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Jammer, you state that when you see mites on the bottom board, you fogged and noticed an increase in mite drop. My experience with OAV is that if I see a few mites drop and then vaporize, I will see hundreds of mites dropping over the next few days, not just an increase. There is no doubt that the OAV treatment had a major effect on the varroa population. In my opinion, seeing an increase is not a win. Seeing hundreds of dead varroa covering the bottom board is.


----------



## Jammer0816 (Jun 15, 2017)

dudelt said:


> Seeing hundreds of dead varroa covering the bottom board is.


Yes. In our case it wasn't hundreds as the mites weren't that bad.


----------



## chickenia (Apr 13, 2012)

No, he uses Wintergreen


----------



## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I have tried all sorts of ways to treat, sure a fogger seems easier and quicker and if you just dump a bucket of water over your colony you will probably kill mites. However when you can build or buy a band heater type of vaporizer you can treat with a measured dosage in a comparable time to a fogger and you will see the difference on the sticky within 24 hours. I can speak from experience as I have still about 4 gallons of Formic acid, 2 redundant pan vaporizers and a fogger before I saw the light and got involved with making the band heater vaporizer and so all that stuff is now in the junk pile. So all you guys that do not see the light just keep on growing your junk pile.
Johno


----------



## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Jammer0816 said:


> Yes. In our case it wasn't hundreds as the mites weren't that bad.


Or . . . the fogging did not kill them. 

If you did not do before and after alcohol washes or sugar rolls, you do not know what the level of mites were in your hives nor the effectiveness of your mite treatment.


----------



## dan bright (Dec 10, 2020)

Well if that city boy had enough brains to mix his oxalic and alcohol and heat untill disolved he would have better results also foggers do get hot enough to turn oxalic into a gas for fogging or mine has been going somewhere and only place i put the fog is inside my hives so this ignorant hillbilly just keeps using it with no clogging problems and seems to me these know it alls would use real facts instead of their own bull sh-- opinions


----------



## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

dan bright said:


> Well if that city boy had enough brains to mix his oxalic and alcohol and heat untill disolved he would have better results also foggers do get hot enough to turn oxalic into a gas for fogging or mine has been going somewhere and only place i put the fog is inside my hives so this ignorant hillbilly just keeps using it with no clogging problems and seems to me these know it alls would use real facts instead of their own bull sh-- opinions


Hey talk is cheap, I have seen plenty of sticky boards with dead mites on them after an oxalic acid vapor treatment and from way back have asked some of the fogging guys to post pictures of the dead mites on the bottom board. I am still waiting.


----------



## dan bright (Dec 10, 2020)

JWChesnut said:


> Alcohol gas phase transition is 75 C. A fogger evaporating alcohol will only heat to 75 C, as the heat of enthalpy will restrict the temperature.
> 
> There is as far as I can tell _no_ (as in zero) legitimate controlled research indicating a fogger will do anything except clog up with an evaporite deposit of Oxalic.
> 
> As far as I can tell "alcohol and Oxalic" in a fogger is just ignorant hillbillies doing useless things. Prove me wrong.





JimD said:


> New to today's beekeeping and see two different approaches for using OA to treat for mites.
> 
> Is there a difference in kill rate between the two applications ?
> 
> ...


I have read differing options for mixing oxalic will not stay disolved in water what i use is 100 proof vodka heated and it will stay dissolved nor do i have time to use sticky boards and crap in my 70 years I have learned a lot live bees is all i need to see it works keeping 80 to 100 hives is a lot of work and working too keeps me too busy to play around


----------



## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

snapper1d said:


> I have a fogger and vaporizer and used both.Fogger with alcohol and oxalic acid works but it doesnt work near as well as the vaporizer.I would stick with the vaporizer.


Really? What was your mite counts before and after using a "fogger? Mite kill numbers?


----------



## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I put in my sticky board and fogged.I got 3 mites in 3 days.I cleaned the few mites off and in 5 days I used my then brand new provap.That time I got over 70 mites.Now would you rather kill 3 mites at the time or 70 mites at the time.


----------



## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

I seen a video of a guy using the alcohol in a fogger. It sounds like he fogged the hive well but then got the burner too close to the vapors coming out of the hive. And BOOM, his 3 deep hive blew apart up and down wise. It looked like somebody just pulled each hive body up then just let it fall back into place without lining anything back up. He was all worked up.


----------



## Swarmhunter (Mar 5, 2015)

I bought a fogger in 2018 and followed one of the recipes on u-tube. The one I used was OA and everclear. I had a lot of sputtering and spitting out the end of it - even when it was good and hot. I used it on three hives after harvest. These hives had 4-6 mite counts. I checked them all a week later. They were still at 3. The big problem was the unevenness of the fog coming out the end. Did them again in 10 days- same results- 2-3 for mite count. Put the unit on the shelf where it's been since.
I have been following Randy Olivers cellulose pad and OA tests with great interest and I plan on experimenting on several honey production hives this year- but the other night I had a thought - how would glycerin and OA come out the end of the fogger? So I drug the Fogger out and mixed a batch using the ratio that Randy has been using in his tests and went outside and tryed it out. It threw out the most beautiful even smoke. I do believe I'm going to do some mite checks and fog and check on 2-3 hives. 
Hope it warms up soon!


----------



## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Swarmhunter said:


> I bought a fogger in 2018 and followed one of the recipes on u-tube. The one I used was OA and everclear. I had a lot of sputtering and spitting out the end of it - even when it was good and hot. I used it on three hives after harvest. These hives had 4-6 mite counts. I checked them all a week later. They were still at 3. The big problem was the unevenness of the fog coming out the end. Did them again in 10 days- same results- 2-3 for mite count. Put the unit on the shelf where it's been since.
> I have been following Randy Olivers cellulose pad and OA tests with great interest and I plan on experimenting on several honey production hives this year- but the other night I had a thought - how would glycerin and OA come out the end of the fogger? So I drug the Fogger out and mixed a batch using the ratio that Randy has been using in his tests and went outside and tryed it out. It threw out the most beautiful even smoke. I do believe I'm going to do some mite checks and fog and check on 2-3 hives.
> Hope it warms up soon!


Been there and done that about 3 years ago, I recall there were not many mites that fell and then after an OA vapor treatment many mites fell, so as vapor treatment was just as easy there was no point in continueing with the fogger and glycerin-OA mix besides it is a pain to mix.


----------



## Surviving Our Bees (Feb 14, 2021)

snapper1d said:


> I put in my sticky board and fogged.I got 3 mites in 3 days.I cleaned the few mites off and in 5 days I used my then brand new provap.That time I got over 70 mites.Now would you rather kill 3 mites at the time or 70 mites at the time.


Right, the band heater is the correct method. Just a note that this thread is really old, I'm pretty sure this forum has moved away from foggers long ago.


----------



## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Surviving Our Bees said:


> Right, the band heater is the correct method. Just a note that this thread is really old, I'm pretty sure this forum has moved away from foggers long ago.


After spending about a year playing around with the band heater vaporizer and then starting a thread trying to convince beekeepers to make their own I guess you could say that I was intersted in plugging that type of vaporizer. And the cost seems to be climbing now that I have stopped making them anyone want to get in there and make them for around $150.


----------



## b2bnz (Apr 5, 2009)

enjambres said:


> If you're new to beekeeping, keep it simple and concentrate on using proven methods, for now.
> 
> With applying OA, two methods are proven to work: Dribble and vaporization.
> 
> ...


It is possible to make your own OA vapourizer which works just as well as the expensive 'wand' similar to the 'Gas-Vap' from the UK.


----------



## Swarmhunter (Mar 5, 2015)

Back a couple of years ago everybody was trying OA and alcohol just like I did. It doesn't work- hard to mix- doesn't vaporize evenly. Why if OA and glycerin and cellulose towels works would OA and glycerin fogged not have a quick knockdown effect. Glycerin and OA with a little warming mixes easily, and it fogs great. I'm going to try it on a few hives this Spring. I'm also going to use cellulose towels and OA glycerin mix for long term effect. Where I'm going to try it is in a few hives made from pkgs. 7-8 days after Queen release before capped brood on a few with higher mite counts. Nothing ventured- nothing gained.
Jerry


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Swarmhunter said:


> Back a couple of years ago everybody was trying OA and alcohol just like I did. It doesn't work- hard to mix- doesn't vaporize evenly. Why if OA and glycerin and cellulose towels works would OA and glycerin fogged not have a quick knockdown effect. Glycerin and OA with a little warming mixes easily, and it fogs great. I'm going to try it on a few hives this Spring. I'm also going to use cellulose towels and OA glycerin mix for long term effect. Where I'm going to try it is in a few hives made from pkgs. 7-8 days after Queen release before capped brood on a few with higher mite counts. Nothing ventured- nothing gained.
> Jerry


I have reservations about fogging with glycerine. Glycerine tastes sweet and is edible for humans but bees dont like it. Just because it tastes sweet to us does not fool bees. Probably a connection on why the OA gly _contact _applications do not appear to contaminate honey supers. Blowing it in?????? Nah

I found that putting on strips too juicy with the oa/gly solution will make the bees beard badly. That was using PH balanced card stock so could be a factor; I thought it was the glycerine that was off putting! Lots and lots about this process we dont know. There are hundreds of pages on OA glycerine experiments on the NZ Beekeeping forum but it is heavy slogging to get through it all. Randy Oliver has done a good job blazing a trail for the adventurous but proceed with caution.


----------



## dan bright (Dec 10, 2020)

fogging does't work if you are selling vaporizers


----------



## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

dan bright said:


> fogging does't work if you are selling vaporizers


Again talk is cheap, show me your mite drop after a treatment and I will show you mine,


----------



## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

dan bright said:


> fogging does't work if you are selling vaporizers


Fogging doesn't work if you are selling foggers, either. 

Alex


----------



## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Fogging doesnt work if you are selling vaporizers or if you are selling foggers.


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

For sale: 1 almost new Burgess fogger. Used once when I still thought fogging would work. Smarter, wiser, and just a tiny bit poorer.


----------



## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

I use an immersion heater ($10).


----------

