# Varroa Treatment



## Sickdog5 (Jun 8, 2016)

What are some things people use to treat mites without using chemicals?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

What is your definition of "chemicals"?

Virtually everything in this world is made up of elements from the Periodic Table of Elements - AKA "chemicals".

Also, which mites are you referring to? Varroa mites or tracheal mites?



Update: Oops, I see now that "varroa" is mentioned in the thread title (which I overlooked earlier).

One reason to ask about how you define "chemicals" is that there are those that promote various 'essential oils' as varroa controls. Sometimes such approaches are promoted as chemical free, but of course, chemicals are everywhere. (This mention is not intended to suggest that essential oils are effective at controlling varroa, its just an example.)

.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

I am not "treatment-free" so I use OA (oxalic acid) with very good results. Oxalic is naturally-occurring in the hive, so I consider it a milder method than most out there. Read about varroa mite control on Scientific Beekeeping and decide for yourself which method(s) are compatible with your standards.

HTH

Rusty


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

brood breaks. look up mdasplitter.com


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

OAV in many states here already got the EPA approval to use.
Not sure about CA though. I invented a homemade oav gadget under
the hive to burn the oa powder into the hive that the bees fan out to distribute
the oav crystals faster.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

Commercial beeks do everything to protect their crop. They have no problem stocking store shelves with honey.There is no effective or practical way to combat varroa without the products that kill varroa unless you buy bees every spring. Sugar blasting-minimaly effective. Mineral oil fog - fergit it....ooopps those are chemicals.. Drop the notion of "chemical" . Products available are used to safely treat bees and are safe for humans when used as directed.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So far I have learn that there are 3 ways to treat or should I say to keep
the mites under control. We now have the vsh bees, mite biting and allogrooming bees.
Those 3 in combination or alone will effectively keep the mite population low or close to 1 per inspection per
hatch cycle that I've seen so far. This year I have incorporated the allogrooming and vsh bees into my apiary.
Now I cannot tell much about the vsh bees but the allogrooming bees I can see they did a very good job at
controlling the mite by interrupting their life cycle in the hive. If needed to in the future I will get the mite biting
bees too. Also start your operation from the beginning with the local tf survivor queen. Then give them a brood
break with a newly mated queen after the mite level is quite low using the initial oav treatment so that the new queen
will have a chance to establish herself first. But if you don't want to use oav to clean up the hive first then you must have the
tf queens to start with. This is what I use so far with very good result going for the tf operation in the future.


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## Sickdog5 (Jun 8, 2016)

beepro said:


> So far I have learn that there are 3 ways to treat or should I say to keep
> the mites under control. We now have the vsh bees, mite biting and allogrooming bees.
> Those 3 in combination or alone will effectively keep the mite population low or close to 1 per inspection per
> hatch cycle that I've seen so far. This year I have incorporated the allogrooming and vsh bees into my apiary.
> ...


Great post. . I am brand-new to this but I have noticed my hive the bees seem very hygienic. They bring out the bad pupa and drop it in front of the hive. someone in the forums told me that this is a very good trait. I am really trying to do this treatment free. Do my bees have a chance if I don't treat them being hygienic.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Note that _Beepro_ has posted many times about the oxalic acid vaporizer that he has 'invented' and uses with his hives. Hardly 'treatment free'.



beepro said:


> ... going for the tf operation [HIGHLIGHT] in the future.[/HIGHLIGHT]


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I am not a 100% tf operation yet because in the process to
get the bees established after the big crash. Since the oav gadget invented I've
only used it a few times earlier this year on my hives to help control the mites so that the new queen
can establish herself first. Then no more oav treatment to see how the hive perform with the allogrooming
and vsh behaviors. 
After that I have not treat them since late Jan. Since my apiary is growing now that
means the bees are doing a good job at controlling the mites. In the future I will only select the bees that
have the lowest mite count to expand my operation. And order queens that are from the tf operation too.
Going to a tf operation is my future goal not too far away!
Some but not all hives will have a way to remove the dead or sick bees. As far as how hygienic they are to the
point that they can control the mites like the vsh or the mite biting bees, you have to do a mite test to 
determine that. If you found out that they can in deed control the mites then going on a tf route is very likely 
possible in the future. My advice would be to get the queens from a tf operation first before deciding whether or
not your bees can take this route. By then you will have 2 hives to compare them.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Sickdog5 said:


> Great post. . I am brand-new to this but I have noticed my hive the bees seem very hygienic. They bring out the bad pupa and drop it in front of the hive. someone in the forums told me that this is a very good trait. I am really trying to do this treatment free. Do my bees have a chance if I don't treat them being hygienic.


Your going to crash and burn. Take my word for it!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, but after the crash there is the rebuilding process. And while in this
process you have to protect your bees from the mites. Then gradually incorporate the
mite fighting bees into your apiary. This is doable once you find the mite biting bees.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Sickdog5 said:


> Great post. . I am brand-new to this but I have noticed my hive the bees seem very hygienic. They bring out the bad pupa and drop it in front of the hive. someone in the forums told me that this is a very good trait. I am really trying to do this treatment free. Do my bees have a chance if I don't treat them being hygienic.


Yes! But from the record it may be a smaller chance than you can live with.

I would suggest you should do a lot more reading before you are ready to separate reasonable conclusions from wishful thinking. I think it takes far more skill to be treatment free and perhaps some degree of isolation to accomplish it. Being a bit skeptical often saves a person a lot of grief.


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## Norcalkyle (Apr 23, 2015)

Imo, you should treat to get them through a full year at least so you can see what a healthy and strong hive looks like. If you dont treat your hive is going to start to dwindle in the late summer and will most likely crssh in nov or dec.

I would treat and play with tf when you have hives that you are comfortable losing.


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

VHS queens


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

hex0rz said:


> Your going to crash and burn. Take my word for it!


 Just because you didn't like it, doesn't mean that it's across the board. It's like those that go frameless that speak of bees building nothing but drone comb when they go foundationless. Understanding bees why they're building drone comb it makes sense. They've wanted to build drone comb and it's the opportunity, so they do. The bee keeper removes it and puts it back. What do the bees do? Build drone comb. The bee keepers thought is foundationless sucks cause all the bees do is build drone comb when in fact they want to, but were not given the chance to get beyond drone comb. Quite a lot of 1 person chiming in when in fact it is only a personal experience. 

I have VHS Queens since April 13th. I LOVE THEM! They have twice as many guard bees on the entrance board from my observation. I never had a Verroa problem. When reading about all of the problems and posts on verroa, it just makes a case to just get VHS queens. I have never seen any brood outside of the bee hive entrance or ground. If you put a VHS queen in an infested bee hive, you bet your dollars they're going to pull brood out as that's what they do and eventually the numbers will decline and then rebound is my logical conclusion. I have had queenless bees hives for 30 to 45 days and they did fine. Let them do what they know best. Give them a chance!


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## Sickdog5 (Jun 8, 2016)

Ok so I guess the general concesis is I should treat. Just ordered a varroa screen and tray combo so I will see if my bees have them. If they do what do people recommend for treatment?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If you find mite levels that are of concern, I would consider ones that do not bioaccumulate in hive components and are not in the category of neurotoxins. Also have shown no pattern of developed resistance. Two that come to mind are formic acid and oxalic acid. One is temperature critical and the other is not. Both are naturally found in honey and most fruit and vegetables. What you buy would be created from industrial processes but are naturally occurring organic acids.

There is lots of threads here to research. Discount both ends of the spectrum from "Its all good)------------ to--------- "The sky is falling and we are all going to die", though the latter is essentially true!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The recommendation for treatment on the long term success of your
future bee operation is to get a vsh, allogrooming or mite biting queen to requeem them all.
Instead of buying an expensive oav unit on the market, I made one under the hive to burn the oav into
the hives. Worked for me so far at controlling the mites. Then I gave them an allogrooming queen, then a
vsh queen to start. My mite level is 1 per inspection per brood cycle so far. Many claimed that the vsh
queen will work for them. And many will not tell you that the mite biting bees will work for them too. I like
the allogrooming bees that work for me so far. Combine that with the vsh bees gave me good results now.
I no longer using my home made oav gadget anymore. Will keep on monitoring the mite level to see what I
need to do next.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

beepro said:


> Yes, but after the crash there is the rebuilding process. And while in this
> process you have to protect your bees from the mites. Then gradually incorporate the
> mite fighting bees into your apiary. This is doable once you find the mite biting bees.


Maybe your more invested than I am, but I'm done watching hives crash. I refuse to allow that to happen. In the meantime, I will entertain the idea of a self sufficient bee. 



Norcalkyle said:


> Imo, you should treat to get them through a full year at least so you can see what a healthy and strong hive looks like. If you dont treat your hive is going to start to dwindle in the late summer and will most likely crssh in nov or dec.
> 
> I would treat and play with tf when you have hives that you are comfortable losing.


I agree



frustrateddrone said:


> Just because you didn't like it, doesn't mean that it's across the board. It's like those that go frameless that speak of bees building nothing but drone comb when they go foundationless. Understanding bees why they're building drone comb it makes sense. They've wanted to build drone comb and it's the opportunity, so they do. The bee keeper removes it and puts it back. What do the bees do? Build drone comb. The bee keepers thought is foundationless sucks cause all the bees do is build drone comb when in fact they want to, but were not given the chance to get beyond drone comb. Quite a lot of 1 person chiming in when in fact it is only a personal experience.
> 
> I have VHS Queens since April 13th. I LOVE THEM! They have twice as many guard bees on the entrance board from my observation. I never had a Verroa problem. When reading about all of the problems and posts on verroa, it just makes a case to just get VHS queens. I have never seen any brood outside of the bee hive entrance or ground. If you put a VHS queen in an infested bee hive, you bet your dollars they're going to pull brood out as that's what they do and eventually the numbers will decline and then rebound is my logical conclusion. I have had queenless bees hives for 30 to 45 days and they did fine. Let them do what they know best. Give them a chance!


I have my doubts about vsh queen. People who sell them still tell you to treat. If you think all you need is a vsh queen, your mistaken. 

You are also making statements based off a very short time frame. You haven't even overwintered those bees yet. 

Talk to me about your treatment free bees with a vsh queen after they make it through to the following seasons flow. 



Sickdog5 said:


> Ok so I guess the general concesis is I should treat. Just ordered a varroa screen and tray combo so I will see if my bees have them. If they do what do people recommend for treatment?


You have them, I guarantee it. You don't need to unnecessarily spend your money on a screen and tray to know that. At worst, get yourself a pint canning jar, get rid of the flat, cut some number 8 hardware cloth to fit inside the ring and collect a cup of bees and do a sugar shake. 

People can take me the wrong way all they want. Yes, you can do as you see fit for your bees. But if you want to avoid hardship unnecessarily, don't go treatment free, yet. Treat them for pests and disease and work on a hardy stock when you have the resources. 

The big 3 i would recommend for varroa:

1. Apivar
2. Maqs 
3. Oxalic acid


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## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

My question is how do you know your hives are strong/ hardy. If they seem that way it's just your artificial treatments that make them seem strong. Stop treating and you will find what strong hives are. They sound different, and act different when not treated. Your hives are not naturally strong, as they could not survive in the wild without the crutches you are providing. A strong hive is one the is self sufficient without treatments.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Through out the last 4 seasons, my hives crashed and rebuilt again.
I will only treat with oav when needed to. Once the mites are under control 
your bees should be self sufficient enough without anymore treatment to carry on. If not then I need
more hardier bees the next time. Also, I started with the tf queens Cordovan base. 
So how do you know that your bees are hardy and strong? In the beginning, for once if you leave
them off treatment and they are able to fight the mites then you will know. If they
crashed then that is it. By then you should know what kind of bees you do have-- 
The might fighting bees or the squishy bees that do not stand a chance once off treatment. Once off
treatment and they are still growing strong without the DWVs on the newly emerged young bees then
you will know. If you don't see 6 mites congregating on the same sickly young bees on each bee hatch cycle then
you will know. If I cannot even find one mite to cut up with a small one sided sharp razor blade then I will know.
Some said if they're off treatment then the mites are back again. That means their bees are not
strong and hardy enough still. So far mine are still holding and getting stronger everyday without the treatment since late Jan.
After this winter onto the next Spring if the hives are still surviving (without any mite crash) then I will know.
I combine the allogrooming traits with the vsh now. If they don't hold then I will get the mite biting bees later on. 
Can they hold until the end of Autumn? Only time will tell!

No treat since late Jan:


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Tf or not to TF is a rough one and this thread shows how divided the bee community is on this issue. What's most important for a new beekeeper to hear is that they are just bugs and you can always get more bugs. The equipment is very important and is the main expense of this hobby/enterprise. Take good care of your stuff and it will reward you in time. 

Learn how to make more bugs yourself and you're on your way to making lots of honey. Read all you can on queen rearing, swarm control, and splits.

A GOOD BEEKEEPER ALWAYS HAS AN EXTRA HIVE AROUND. (You'll need it) 
Good luck and happy bees.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

This is my 3rd (or maybe my 4th?) year with VHS genetics in my hives. VHS queens are a great form of mite control. F1 and F2 generations do a really, really good job. HOWEVER, by generation F3, the picture changes drastically. F3 hives are not as productive and their mite numbers really start to explode. They start getting cranky, too. So it is very important to keep renewing those VHS genetics. I buy a few new queens every year. I still test regularly, treat as needed, and replace the queen in any hive I have to treat.

JMO

Rusty


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

That means your local DCAs do not have the hygienic drone bees.
If you open mate your queens then the vsh mother drones are very important to
maintaining this genetic in the F3 and on generation. Failure to maintain it you have to
keep on buying the queen bees. Drone saturation is the key!
Why not incorporate some allogrooming and mite biting bees also? I have excellent result with
the allogrooming Russians genetics bees here. Cannot find the mites to experiment with my homemade
oav gadget anymore. And the hive population keep on growing through out the summer months. At this rate
I can make more after the solstice good laying queens. We try to incorporate the complementary genetics into
our apiary without compromising the gentleness and honey production too.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

beepro, could you explain your attached thumbnails... Just bearding on the fronts doesn't really say much other than they need more room, and they're hot and stressed...


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Brandy said:


> beepro, could you explain your attached thumbnails... Just bearding on the fronts doesn't really say much other than they need more room, and they're hot and stressed...


That's not bearding... it's allogrooming. opcorn:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

No, that is washboarding! Haa, ha! LOL!


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

beepro said:


> That means your local DCAs do not have the hygienic drone bees.
> If you open mate your queens then the vsh mother drones are very important to
> maintaining this genetic in the F3 and on generation. Failure to maintain it you have to
> keep on buying the queen bees. Drone saturation is the key!


Drone saturation IS key. Back when I was the only beek here I maintained Cordovan genetics with open mating. Nowadays that's not possible. Even though I maintain VSH queens strictly for drone rearing when I am making queens, their saturation is STILL not high enough apparently, so I do have to keep buying a few queens each year. I consider them a good investment, though, and a key part of my Varroa management program. I'm hoping that eventually their saturation level will improve because of my input of more good drones.

Rusty


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Drone saturation IS key. I'm hoping that eventually their saturation level will improve because of my input of more good drones. Rusty


The Italians Cordovan will build up much faster than the carnis or Russians in the early Spring time.
Taking advantage of this will help to increase the drone saturation level. Also having strong production
colonies using the after the solstice queen will help with the early build up too sending the Cordovan drones to
the DCAs. Even better if you have an isolated mating yard or use the AI method. But for now taking advantage
of the early build up with strong overwintered hives will do.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

> But for now taking advantage
> of the early build up with strong overwintered hives will do.


So far this has not been my experience. Mite populations in my hives explode come July/August in my F3 hives--but only in the F3 hives. The F1 and F2 hives remain mite-free or nearly so. Mine is not a large yard and apparently there is someone new in the area that does not have VSH genetics in their hives. I know from experience they will be gone next season or the season after. I'm guessing that's how long it takes for the mites to get them. I manage to stay mite-free or nearly so by introducing 2-3 new F1 queens each season and replacing queens in every hive that I have to treat. This year that looks to be maybe one hive. But I always seem to have one! Still, overall it IS working.

JMO

Rusty


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If the other party treated then your open mated F3 or so will continue
to get the treated bees. How's that going to help with your long term tf operation?
So by overwintering the strong yet mite fighting bees colonies they will goto the DCAs
earlier thereby increasing the chance of the resistant bees. In another word, send your virgin
queens to the DCAs earlier. The trick is to duplicate the big tf operation. Now how many tf queens
can you keep to expand after the solstice? After the brood break I have no more mites to fight. I tried to
catch some mites to cut on every hatch cycle. But so far I cannot find them! Mel's method is to make a split
in July and use the young queen to overwinter for a fast Spring expansion. Combining Palmer's nuc method with
Mel's split method after the solstice and some vsh, allogrooming queens, I'm on my way to sending the vsh drones
to the local DCAs increasing the chance of a mated queen with the mite fighting ability. If your neighbor cannot do this
then their drones will drag down your operation. I only buy queens that will enhance my operation and not put it further
behind. Anyone can duplicate this process with the right bee genetics! Are yours pretty much inline?


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