# Regressing to 4.9 and Frame Size Changeover Questions



## True Beeliever (Feb 23, 2015)

In the next few days I will start regressing my overwintered 5.4 hive to 4.9 cell size. The hive currently has large frames in three 10 frame boxes. I want to change it over to medium frame and regress them at the same time. I bought a bunch of PF120 frames to do this. My thought is to cull out enough frames to reduce the hive to 2 deep boxes. Then put one brand new medium box with the pf 120 frames right on the bottom. As they draw out the new frames I will move up with new medium boxes and remove the large ones as I can.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this that I should consider ?

Thanks
TB


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

My bees move their brood area upwards in the spring as they expand, not down, so I would put the new box on top of the deeps if you want them to start fresh comb and brood right away on the PFs. 

Maybe there's something inherently different in the stack order due to change of cell-size. 

But I could see my bees simply ignoring an undrawn box underneath the brood area. I think they'd see it as some sort of weird variety of slatted board, instead of potential brood real estate. If put on top, though, I think they'd drag their feet a bit about having to draw it while it's still chilly, but at least they know what the purpose was. For that reason, if you have any drawn medium comb, (even if it's not small cell) you might put one in the center of the new box to give them a hint. You can work it outwards, and out of the hive, once they have started working in earnest on the new frames.

Perhaps my mutt girls are just overly focused on being upwardly mobile.

Enj.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Bees are reluctant to draw plastic frames. Coating with more wax will help significantly with this. Also, only put the frames on during a heavy flow. The bees will draw plastic during a flow and will ignore it otherwise. As Enj noted, put the mediums on top and let the bees fill them with honey. Extract the honey and give the frames back to the bees as brood frames.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Why not treat them like a "shaken swarm" where you put the queen in a clip and then shake all the bees into the new boxes. Add the queen back into the hive. The new hive goes back where the original one was so foragers return to the same box. The old boxes can go above a queen excluder and then removed as the brood hatches out.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's spring. You likely have a lot of empty comb. Remove it. If there is a good nectar flow, pull all but a frame or two of honey and pollen. Feed some of the PF120s in the brood nest to get them drawn. Add a box on top. When you have some brood in the PF120s, pull them and the queen above the excluder and wait for the rest of the brood to emerge. Pull the rest of the deeps.


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## nolefan1985 (Mar 23, 2016)

I checked my new hive today, two weeks after installing a nuc into a 10 frame deep. I have read Michael Bush's books and believe what he has learned to be true, so I am going for it. I mentioned earlier that I alternated nuc frames with foundationless frames and placed 4.9 plastic frames at either end. The hive is about 95% drawn, included beautiful comb on the foundationless and comb beginning on the plastic as well. It is teeming with bees so that you can hardly see the foundation. I saw the queen on the third frame I pulled so gently put everything back. I was prepared and placed a medium for brood on top with a mixture of 4.9 plastic and foundationless frames in it. Because of the size difference of the boxes I cannot bait the hive with a frame of brood (I read Michael's books after my family gifted me with a couple deeps). Will they begin to draw comb in this empty medium?


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

Regressing bees, changing frames, manipulating the colony. Is a big pain in the butt. I know, been there, done that. I gave it all up along with those weak commercial bees I started with. My solution was to capture some feral bees from an isolated area and put them on foundationless frames, I use the F frames from Kelly Bees. Why not do the same and in the meanwhile keep the bees you have now in the equipment you have . It will be much easier and you may get some good pest resistant bees like I've had for the past six years.JMO


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You can, in the interim of these change overs, put medium frames in deep boxes and deep frames in two medium boxes... I don't do it unless I have a good reason, but that way you can get some brood in a medium when the brood nest is in a deep or pull some brood up to the mediums from the deep to get them to start using the mediums. You can cut the extra 3" of comb off the bottom later and tie it into a frame.


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## nolefan1985 (Mar 23, 2016)

Michael, thank you so much. I have more medium boxes coming tomorrow and I can be more flexible. They are drawing beautiful straight comb and I am so amazed by it and their numbers. I shaved the frames to 1 1/4 in wide also, so they seem very packed. I will use your advice and mix it up a little more when I get more equipment in. I didn't really expect them to move so fast. I have many beekeepers in our area who would be glad to mentor me, but I am the only one doing your methods and I am totally new, so I am very hesitant to call anyone for now. I may if it all looks really good as I think they would be attracted to a success story. I just don't want them to discourage me for now


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## Rob789 (May 10, 2016)

When you put small cell foundation in the hive do the large cell reared worker bees draw the small cell out at 4.9mm or do they do some size between 5.4mm so you have to keep feeding the hive new foundation every couple brood cycles before you are truly using small cells? I've seen one supplier selling a couple sizes between 4.9 and 5.4 to slowly transition but that seems like a ton of work and extremely time/resource consuming. Thanks in advance for clearing up my confusion on the subject!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>When you put small cell foundation in the hive do the large cell reared worker bees draw the small cell out at 4.9mm or do they do some size between 5.4mm so you have to keep feeding the hive new foundation every couple brood cycles before you are truly using small cells?

It depends. I've seen packages on foundationless draw 4.7mm right out of the box. I've seen bees I knew were on 5.4mm that would not draw wax 4.9mm foundation 4.9mm but built it about 5.1mm. On the Mann Lake PF100 series they consistently built it the size it is laid out (4.94mm)
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#whatisregression


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## Rob789 (May 10, 2016)

Could you do small cell and narrow frame spacing at the same time with large cells bees from a package or would that cause them to abscond?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Most bees that were raised on large cell are very reluctant to draw small cell. Narrow frames actually makes the process a bit easier in my experience by reduced the space between combs which makes it less likely they will draw cross-comb. The key factors are to either feed them heavily or install them in the hive during a heavy nectar flow. Once the combs are drawn, the bees will use with no issues.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I caught a swarm of what must have been large cell bees. I gave them a comb and foundationless frames on 1 1/4 inch spacing. Without a guide on the outside edge to constrain their comb making, each comb made was built a little further out on the frame so the combs were spaced maybe at 1 3/8. I was fighting comb with that colony the whole summer. Lots of wonky comb.

My other hives didn't do this, even at the beginning.


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