# Treating for mites necessary? Is it too late?



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

The damage is done at this point.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

oav them once and be done with it, can't hurt, and the mite biters don't really control the mites.


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## Johnnymms (Feb 7, 2020)

While I agree that it is probably too late at this point, would it hurt to try something? If he hit them with OAV it might knock down the mite population. The results of the treatment might be an eye opener. Even if he can't save the hive it might be good practice in treating for the future if he sticks with it...


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If you see a mite on a bees back, it is one that has just jumped on! There usual place is settled in under the abdominal scales on the lower part of the bees bodies. By the time you can actually see many mites on bees, they are already way out of control. Other words saying you have no mites because you didnt see any is pure _ _ _ _ _ _ _. You fill in the blanks.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I would treat them, who knows they may survive until Spring. You may need to put them in a smaller box if the cluster size gets too small, 4 frames or less. Good luck.

Edit; is this a first or second year colony?

Alex


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

I would treat one time with OAV.

Better to have at least tried something and still loose them than to have done nothing and still loose them. 
Mites are killers on the bees, when the mite bomb explodes you will loose them in the next couple of months.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Might as well do a mite count and see. 
Before doing anything.
The probability of surviving as-is - greater than zero (but it is a low probability).


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

It could be too late for your bees but I would try to kill those mites anyhow and I would treat 2 or 3 times with OAV a few days apart depending on your location and capped brood situation. With capped brood treat every 3 to 4 days until no more mites fall, if broodless treat once a week untill no more mites fall. Even if your bees do not make it at least you have killed mites and not passed them on to some other hives down the road.


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## Muddy creek (Jun 25, 2019)

Beekeeper Matt said:


> Just wondering if i could get a few opinions on here about this. I am not seeing any mites on my bees. They Are a hybrid carniolan thats supposed to bite the mites if they come in contact with them. Should i still treat my hive for them? And it's averaging about 40 degrees during the day here.


 Just a recommendation, look up treating with oxalic acid vapor and when to apply so you can be ready next year with the tools needed to treat your bees. Yours may live through the winter but them being healthy and robust they probably won’t.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Beekeeper Matt said:


> I am not seeing any mites on my bees. They Are a hybrid carniolan thats supposed to bite the mites if they come in contact with them. Should i still treat my hive for them?


Have they been treated previously? Do a mite count and find out the load? What crofter said 😁


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## Beekeeper Matt (Jul 7, 2021)

Havent treated before this is my first year bee keeping. Populations still high I've got 2 medium boxes plum full of bees....


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## Beekeeper Matt (Jul 7, 2021)

As far as doing a mite count is the powdered sugar method most efficient?


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## Muddy creek (Jun 25, 2019)

Beekeeper Matt said:


> As far as doing a mite count is the powdered sugar method most efficient?


The most efficient is the alcohol wash


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Beekeeper Matt said:


> As far as doing a mite count is the powdered sugar method most efficient?


They are all efficient - either sugar or alcohol.
Define "efficient".
What do you mean by "efficient"? 

However, I would do sugar so to NOT be killing off the valuable winter bees - you NEED the winter bees and as many as possible of them.
To compare, summer bees are not that valuable. You can afford to kill them.

Sugar will under-count some.
This is about accuracy, NOT efficiency.

But it does not matter - just assume it under-counts 1% and this is plenty accurate for your needs.
If you get 4-5% and more mites by sugar (under-counted!) - that pretty much is a dead colony at this time.
If you get 2-3% mites by sugar (under-counted!) - that is marginal case and you may want to treat to help them along. Just OA dribble them and done.
If you get 0-2%, may just let it ride as is. OAD will not hurt anyway, just not as critical.

PS: edited the %s.


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## Beekeeper Matt (Jul 7, 2021)

Thanks everyone


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Beekeeper Matt said:


> Havent treated before this is my first year bee keeping. Populations still high I've got 2 medium boxes plum full of bees....


Pretty strong for November - these are mostly winter bees - good density.
An obvious mite-bomb should have collapsed by now.

Except - are you SURE you have two boxes full? 
Most often this is what you see from above - which tells little of the reality.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Powdered sugar will do it will give you an idea , however I do not know your location, and if you are where bees have cut back on brood your counts are naturally going to be higher than if they had a lot of brood so the count is again a little thumbsuck. Rather do a sticky board count after an OAV treatment and look to see how many mites have fallen and continue to do so until no more fall. Do not give up on the colony. I left my observation hive until I could see mites feeding on the bees underbelly and then treated them until no more mites fell and they survived OK. Survivability may depend on the amounts of viruses in the colony and there is a theory that acidic environments doe damage to the viruses and prevents them from multiplying.


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## Beekeeper Matt (Jul 7, 2021)

Yes that's not doing a frame by frame inspection. Havent looked into it much but i felt that if the temps in the 40s and 50s i shouldnt leave the hive open for long.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Beekeeper Matt said:


> Yes that's not doing a frame by frame inspection. Havent looked into it much but i felt that if the temps in the 40s and 50s i shouldnt leave the hive open for long.


40s-50s is plenty warm to do what is necessary.

All you have to do - lift the second box and see in between the boxes.
A potential issue is that the bottom box could empty of the bees and stores.
You'd rather know this now, not later - while still possible to take measures..


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## Beekeeper Matt (Jul 7, 2021)

I'll get on that tomorrow morning for sure then


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Beekeeper Matt said:


> Havent treated before this is my first year bee keeping. Populations still high I've got 2 medium boxes plum full of bees....


Let us know what you find as far as mite counts, and treatment. Do you know if your supplier treated the queen's mother?


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## Beekeeper Matt (Jul 7, 2021)

Definitely have both of those boxes filled to the brim with bees. Quite a few yellow jackets also. Mite test resulted in 3 mites for 1/4 of a quart size jar of bees. Not sure about the queens mother being treated I'll have to give them a call.


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## Beekeeper Matt (Jul 7, 2021)

Also installed apivar strips.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Beekeeper Matt said:


> Mite test resulted in 3 mites for 1/4 of a quart size jar of bees.


You have to be specific if this was sugar or alcohol (as discussed already).

3 mites per a cup of bees is low still - about 1-2 mites per a 1/2 cup - less than 1%..
I would not worry about the mites for the winter.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Beekeeper Matt said:


> it's averaging about 40 degrees during the day here.


In those temperatures the bees would have to be tightly clustered and I'm not sure how effective an OAV would be.

What would definately work and would not disrupt the cluster would be an Apivar strip inserted right into the middle of the cluster. This could be done without removing frames or causing any disruption the bees would barely notice, and you will know any mites are being dealt to.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

One of the commercial guys "Bob Binnie" was not happy with the results he had from using Apivar, he also had heavy losses with bees that were used by Jennifer Berry and somebody else who did trials with the glycerin/ OA mixture im Georgia. Just heard from a commercial guy in Arizona that he is having heavy losses with Amitraz as well so it looks like resistance is building. Actually if the bees are tightly clustered I am not sure if Apivar would work either as the bees need to be moving to spread it around.


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## Beekeeper Matt (Jul 7, 2021)

They have been moving around still seeing activity outside the hive even. As long as they're still active that should help spread the treatment right? Supposed to be in the 60s this coming week but you never know with ohio weather.


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## Jim Braun (Nov 8, 2019)

If you have Apivar strips on, you have no need of OAV. One treatment at a time.


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## mrphillip2 (Nov 7, 2021)

I treated with OA sublimation once a week for 3 weeks at the end of August. A week ago I inspected and saw I had a problem (a mite crawling out of a dead larva cell!). I vaped again the next day. Today is a week later, time for treatment 2. The bees had been busy hauling out dead mites, zoom in on the picture. It’s never too late to treat for mites. If you wait, they may be late bees. 😉


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

I think you forgot the pic!


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## North Ohio Bee keeper (Jan 7, 2019)

Beekeeper Matt said:


> Havent treated before this is my first year bee keeping. Populations still high I've got 2 medium boxes plum full of bees....


So sorry you never watch Mite control videos to update you. Chances are your bees will die. I tried those costly plastic strips=not gonna name them and lost 28 hives with mites that had Nasema last winter. Wised up this early spring and invented a copper Propane fogger that takes only 30 seconds. fogged my bees 2 times 10 days apart and my bees exploded in grouth. One hive made 21 new queens for me and I pulled them out quick and made Nucs from them before my queen swarmed. New idea you'll all love is the 3 pound sugar brick to feed your winter bees. use 3 pounds sugar plus 1/3 CUP of water and make sure the water has a little honey bee healthy in it. build u a solid 4 by 5 inch frame 4 inches tall. then make an extra frame that is in two peaces to fit inside the solid frame. Then a one inch this board that fits tightly inside that two peace frame. mix your sugar and water with an egg beater then dump it into the inter frame. place the block of wood on top the sugar and pound it like crazy. its best to put 1/8 plywood under your frame first with wax paper on top that plywood. remove the solid frame the carefully remove the two peace frame take off wooden block on top and store 3 days to dry. then grab hold the wax paper and tilt the block on edge to dry 3 more day. It gets solid to pick up and carry to store or use. remove two empty honey frame from your top box and set one or two bricks in their place. Your welcome


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## randallroller64 (Oct 16, 2021)

Beekeeper Matt said:


> Just wondering if i could get a few opinions on here about this. I am not seeing any mites on my bees. They Are a hybrid carniolan thats supposed to bite the mites if they come in contact with them. Should i still treat my hive for them? And it's averaging about 40 degrees during the day here.


Have you done a mite count? Maybe you do not need to treat.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

randallroller64 said:


> Have you done a mite count? Maybe you do not need to treat.


That ship has sailed 😁


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## Beekeeper Matt (Jul 7, 2021)

Indeed. So my mother in law has 2 hives (also her first year beekeeping). And her might count yielded 13 mites on a test of one hive and 2 on the other. Would it be wise to combine them at this point?


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## Norcal Mtns (Mar 28, 2021)

Matt, is that 13 mites per cup of bees, per half cup or per 100 bees? Alcohol wash or sugar?


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

I'm not sure how accurate an alcohol wash would be in the Winter, when there are no nurse bees? I've never felt good about killing bees that live for 6 months.


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## Beekeeper Matt (Jul 7, 2021)

Sugar test. On 1/4 of a quart size jar full of bees. Believe that was the equivalent of per 100


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

ifixoldhouses said:


> I've never felt good about killing bees that live for 6 months.


Read post #15 above. IMO GregV nails it with when to use alcohol and when to use sugar dust.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Beekeeper Matt said:


> Sugar test. On 1/4 of a quart size jar full of bees. Believe that was the equivalent of per 100


1/4 of a quart is a cup.
That is ~600 bees.
Standard test is 1/2 cup (~300 bees).
Now figure out the rest.


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

Sugar test isn't accurate, I tried it once, and all the bees came running out of the cup before I could get the lid on, and after it was done there were bee legs etc. all over the place. Treat your bees in August before the bees that raise the Winter bees are emerged.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ifixoldhouses said:


> Sugar test isn't accurate, I tried it once, and all the bees came running out of the cup before I could get the lid on,........


So..... the test isn't accurate because you could not get the lid on?
LOL

It is plenty accurate for the right usage cases and gives enough actionable information.


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

It's not accurate to begin with.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ifixoldhouses said:


> It's not accurate to begin with.


It is like arguing that scalpel is sharper than an ax.
I don't even argue - that is true.
But obviously, why use scalpel to split wood when an ax will do. 

It does not matter if you get 20 mites per a count (~7%) using a sugar shake.

What is the point of higher accuracy when it is pretty darn obvious that you must treat or the hive dies at 20 mites.
Will you still insist to do the alcohol test to ensure you get the 23 mites per a count (because it is more accurate)?

As a matter of fact, any time you get 3%+ mite count using a sugar shake - it just made total sense to use sugar. Sugar is good enough to indicate if the mites are over the line or not in most cases.
See that? 

If you get under 3%, then go ahead and do alcohol to ensure you get it down to 2.5% or 3.5% if it really matters. 
Last year I did sugar on almost all of my hives - it was plenty obvious that they had plenty of mites - did not need alcohol to find that out.

In general, alcohol makes sense in spring/early summer/mid summer - because the counts are expected to be low and even percent fractions have actual meaning then (and potentially the queen!).
In fall - does not matter that much, while sugar preserves the winter bees.


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

GregV said:


> It is like arguing that scalpel is sharper than an ax.
> I don't even argue - that is true.
> But obviously, why use scalpel to split wood when an ax will do.
> 
> ...


I guess, I read somewhere that it's 90% so alter your math equation to find the percentage.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ifixoldhouses said:


> I guess, I read somewhere that it's 90% so alter your math equation to find the percentage.


So you read _somewhere_ (quote?) that it is 90%... 
90% what? 
Maybe define what you mean?

Like I said before, with sugar test you can just safely add 1% to your measured result and that will be plenty good to make good decisions. 
Sugar testing is not as accurate - there is no arguing. 
However, in most variety of cases it gets you the numbers you need to know.

And like I said before, if you get 5% with sugar, than more accurate 6% alcohol reading does not change a thing - the bees are dead unless measures are taken.

Look, you can do whatever you want and measure things down to 0.00001% if that matters (which most often it does not matter). I am not here to stop you.


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

Jeez Louise, I'm not trying to write a book or get 10,000 posts in a year, just saying my .02 "Sugar roll isn't worth a hoot" some say it's 90% accurate, I'd say 75% maybe.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

To further muddy the waters (I'm good at that ) what is more important than accuracy is how consistent _your_ inaccuracy is. Everyone should calibrate their sugar shake with a follow up alcohol wash at least once a year. This is currently #678 on my beekeeping to-do list so will get back to you with mine in about five years


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

William Bagwell said:


> To further muddy the waters (I'm good at that ) what is more important than accuracy is how consistent _your_ inaccuracy is. Everyone should calibrate their sugar shake with a follow up alcohol wash at least once a year. This is currently #678 on my beekeeping to-do list so will get back to you with mine in about five years


I have stopped numbering my to do lists. I now have two columns;
Urgent.
Too old to care.

Alex


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

To me I am finding that there is no better time of year to treat than now. If your using OA your going to kill a much higher percentage of the mites if your hives are broodless. The mites cannot reproduce, they have nowhere to hide. And just think how long of a period they will have being relatively mite free. From now until Feb March? As long as the bees have broken cluster you can treat them with OA without opening the hive. Sock it to them good. The bees will thank you. If you have any sticky boards and want to see the fruits of your labors. Use one. They are most satisfying seeing all the dead mites.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

GregV said:


> And like I said before, if you get 5% with sugar, than more accurate 6% alcohol reading does not change a thing - the bees are dead unless measures are taken.


I guess that depends on there genetics. Some beekeeper's treat if they have 2%, some beekeeper's treat on a schedule (no counting at all), some beekeeper's treat & count afterwards, not prior. Some beekeepers buy treated bees and plan to keep them TF., etc. In the OPs case, he may not have needed to treat at all? I would especially like to know more about there mother.


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## Struttinbuck (Mar 8, 2020)

Ahhhhh. I think I see why people are reluctant to treat now. I am spoiled with my vaporizer. I will vape a hive at the drop of a hat.


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