# Winter Survival Musings - year to year variability and how are yours doing?



## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

By this time last year I had 5 hives alive from 8 that went into the winter. Conditions had been a lot harsher (we had received 34 inches of snow compared to 7 this year) and it had been colder.
This year I have 21 colonies alive out of 21 so far. What I am noticing is how hard it is to make direct comparisons because of the variables involved - the weather is never the same for example. What I did notice last year was that the hives that did survive had all had a brood break as they were raising a queen or nurturing an introduced cell, and so this year I aimed for the same brood break as my strategy of mite control. It is going to be interesting to see what the overall survival rate is going to be though I am hesitant to draw any big conclusions as it is so early in the winter. I have 9 nucs in two storeys of five frames and the remaining 12 hives range from singles (Roland Style) to three deeps. We had an extended Goldenrod flow and so all colonies went into the game heavy. I also gave everybody a pollen patty. 
I hope to arrive at sustainability by a combination of Mel Disselkoen's and Michael Palmer's methods. I recommend pressing your ear against the hive, and (upon hearing a buzz) singing "AH AH AH AH Stayin' alive, Stayin' alive" in falsetto of course. It's good for the spirits. Seasons greetings to all, and how are your bees. Are they "Stayin' aliiiiiiiiiiiive"?:banana:


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

So far so good, but it has been real easy. I weighed them and they have eaten 12 pounds average since end of flow. I only fed one and didn't weigh it as it has moutain camp sugar on top. It is a solid block I suppose, but didn't want to tip the hive to get the scale under. I refuse to sing falsetto as I will admit I am a grumpy old fart.


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## northbee (Apr 16, 2009)

Went into the winter with 19 in a variety of configurations from double deeps to single 5 frame nucs. Lost one so far which was not a surprise as it was ravaged by mites. 
Others are looking good so far but there is a lot of winter left. Seems like there may be some similarities in management objectives between what you are doing and what I am doing Adrian. I also would like to be self sufficient and sustainable in regards to my apiaires and colony replacement on a year to year basis. I am not terribly familiar with Mel Disselkoen's methods but have followed Mike Palmers methods and taken some cues from them. I have also followed a little of what Kirk Webster is doing for guidance. 

Best of luck. 

Yuuki


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> I recommend pressing your ear against the hive, and (upon hearing a buzz) singing "AH AH AH AH Stayin' alive, Stayin' alive" in falsetto of course.


I would only do that if I were wearing a tight polyester bee suit.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Yuuki, search for "MDA Splitter" and you'll get to Mel's website. We should compare notes in the spring and see what survived. Mike, don't forget that the suit should have flared pants.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Still 2 for 2. I have not checked in on my 2nd hive in a while due to it being at an out apiary, but we both have stethoscopes and both seem alive and kickin.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> We had an extended Goldenrod flow and so all colonies went into the game heavy.


I think this might have something to do with your success so far.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

same here on extended goldenrod, plus fed a little for insurance cause i robbed 'em late. five for five on the full sized colonies, five for five on some late nucs/splits.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

adrian, were these brood breaks at any certain time in the season? i also have a stethoscope. i can hear better with it than my ear and it's more comfortable. it does make you feel like singing!


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Squarepeg, I made the broodbreaks in the middle of July when I made my nucs. The other broodbreaks have been made a little more randomly as I split up some hives that were trying to swarm. I too have a stethoscope, but prefer my ear on the hive.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

adrian, in wisconsin, is the middle of july early, mid, or late nectar flow?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

10/11 so far. Had a real rough summer, all hives have granulated sugar on.

Last year, I had 5/8 survive. One made it all the way to Feb. 1st with two dozen bees and more than a foot of snow before they finally got froze solid in a hard freeze. Come to think of it, that queen is still frozen, she's in the freezer waiting to become swarm lure.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

come to think of it, nine out of my ten colonies were requeened this year, due to queenlessness, splits, and nuc making. the only hive that i think still has the same queen as last year, is in a 50/50 split that i did on my best hive after they filled two mediums with honey over their single deep. i'm not sure which hive got the existing queen, because i was too new to find her. i thought that queen was in the hive that filled their next honey super quicker, because i had been told that they won't gather much when they are queenless. but that might have been the queenless one storing more while they had a brood break. as the season progressed the split that stored less at first ending up having more bees. hmmm........


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Squarepeg, Mid-July is the middle of the main flow in a "normal" season. We generally get a flow to build bees on with the fruit bloom; Then there is wild raspberries, sumac, and clover from mid-June through July. The main flow is usually over by August. The year is rounded out by Goldenrod (which is variable) in September/early October. I'm very lucky in that I live in an area that has been historically marginal for cropland, and I'm surrounded by scrubby land and folks with undeveloped 2-5 acre lots with plenty of forage for my bugs. 
I'm starting to think of bees and honey in a different manner. Rather than thinking of honey as the crop I'm thinking of honey as the crop within a crop. The two are so interdependant that to not think of how many bees you've raised is like thinking of an ear of corn without the stalk. The bees that I have now are the basis for next years honey crop, and how much honey they produce depends on how many I have at about the beginning of July. I know this is not a huge revelation to those beeks with years more experience than I, but I think a light switch just went on in my head. 
What I am going to endeavor to learn is how to manage momentum; To my mind its like an old cowboy movie cattle drive. The season is the route, the bees are the cattle, and the main flow is the summer grazing. What I am striving to do is bring those cattle all together and have as many as i can to take advantage of the summer grazing. I don't have trouble with rustlers, but I do have to watch out for predators (bears), and stampedes (swarms). If I get enough of them through to the grazing their fat (the honey) will keep me going until next years roundup. Then I can ride home and tend my calves (nucs). Yeehaa!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

great analogy adrian. thanks for the reply and for starting this post. it has very much helped my evolving management strategy. spent my first years of life in racine, sure miss the kringle!


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## sheepdog (May 3, 2011)

This is my first year and I just have one hive. Next year I'm thinking about building a mini green house around the hive in the late fall to help them get through the winter. I hope the girls make it through until spring.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

We have not had any winter here in Kansas City yet to speak off. Last Saturday it got up to 55 and all 16 of our hives had orientation flights going on at some point during the day, so, so far so good.

1st year beeks, anxious for spring.

Wife and I are having a lot of fun this week though, delivering Christmas honey to all the folks that we did removals or swarm catches for this last year. 









Don


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## rjphil (Feb 13, 2009)

My girls were out yesterday (12/22) for a stroll - it was about 52F here. I have 3 Italian double deeps and one single deep nuc with Carniolans. I have left honey on all of them, plus Dadant winter patties for insurance. Lost 3 hives last year and am trying to baby these 4 through. The more I learn ... the less I know. Happy Holidays to all !!


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

How much of the VSH genetics do you think are in the bees?


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

BEES4U said:


> How much of the VSH genetics do you think are in the bees?


Read on one of the links Fusion_power provided on the queen breeding thread for Survivor queens currently in the queen rearing section forum, that in any given line 15 - 20% of the hives have VSH traits.


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## msapostol (Sep 6, 2008)

The girls are still out foraging a bit. We're short on rain this month and it's been around 50 degrees for the day, so far so good. But I'm expecting it to get colder and then we'll see how the girls fare. I hoping 3 out of 3 will make it. I will happily dance and sing if they do!


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## Russell in wisc (Jul 7, 2010)

I have lost three hives already and the weather has been warmer then usual. We did have a killing frost sept 15 but the bees seemed to have plently of honey.The one hive was very heavy with the third super full of honey which I didn't take off.This was a hive I started a year ago that survived the winter. The other was another year old hive but weaker in two hive bodies but still plenty of honey.Then the other one was a swarm I caught that came from the weaker hive.I know where it came from because I was lucky enough to happen to watch it happen and catch them. When I went through them I wondered why the clusters were so small this summer the two bigger hives were boiling with bees.I noticed in the middle there
was in each hive a small soft ball size of capped brood that wasn't hatched yet and around the circle were bees with their heads stuck inside.I know they starved protecting the unhatched brood and wouldn't move to feed but why were the clusters so small.I don't treat for mites which I probably should have so maybe that was the problem? Or do you think the queens died but I can't believe all of them would.The two hives that are living I got from packages this spring and seem to being doing good so far.Any ideas to what might have gone wrong?


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Russell, your experiences parallel mine from last year. I believe this is what happened; If a person doesn't count or treat for mites, and doesn't have mite tolerant stock, in late summer of the second year the mites will outbreed the bees and the bees going into winter will be too weak to survive. 
I will be honest, despite plenty of education from my bee club (the Minnesota Hobby Beekeepers Association) I have absolutely zero interest in counting mites and treating the hives based on the mite count. I object to it. So what to do? Well reading on Beesource is a good place to start. By last spring my two year old hives died. The bees that had been forced to take a break from brood rearing survived the winter. One of my surviving hives was a two storey 5 frame split that I had made in the summer, now last winter was really cold and snowy, yet it still survived and was strong in the spring. 
All of my colonies going into this winter have had a brood break. I have 9 two storey 5 frame nucs, and 12 other colonies. I don't expect that they will all survive, but I am hopeful for better than last year. When the daffodils bloom I plan to report my results on this thread. 
If you are not going to count mites there are various strategies to employ. Mite resistant bees is one way to go, but another, the way I am going, is to use "MDA splitter's" method, and Mike Palmers overwintering nuc strategy. 
This is a different mindset from what is normally preached and practised; MDA's method is expensive in terms of requiring extra equipment to house the splits, and Mike Palmer's requires some adaptation of your equipment to split a single deep into 2 nuc's, but I think it is worth persevering. Another expense involved in MDA's method is the absence of early honey, it is used by the bees in the splits. However, who wants to replace packages every spring? Have you seen Mike on Vimeo? "The sustainable Apiary", is a fantastic and informative presentation on the joys of nucs. I am excited by the symbiosis of MDA and Mike Palmer's methods, and with the caveat that it is still early in the winter, I am happy to sing AH, AH, AH, AH Stayin ALiiiiiiiiiiiive, as I look at my hives. :banana:


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## Todd Eury (Feb 27, 2011)

Four for Four here in Concord North Carolina. Checked on them today and all of them were bringing in pollen. Peaked in on them and everything looks fine. Good luck to everyone and Merry Christmas.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Three for Three in North East Wyoming. I piled on the feed in early September; another flow hit in late September early October that fattened all of them up. Plus I threw on some BeePro pollen patties that the little suckers chewed through in about two-three days. 

I went out and checked them today and drilled some 3/4" top entrance holes in the upper corner of the second deep. I also finally got around to insulating the top of the hives by putting some 1/2" Foam insulation into the top of the telescoping cover. I was hesitant to put the upper entrance and to lazy to put the foam insulation on up until now but after finally finishing the second part of MP's sustainable apiary video I decided to punch the holes and insulate. I remember I had a quick look at the hives in early December when I put the mouse guards on and all three of them had large chunks of ice at the front entrance that obviously came from moisture on the inside.

One of the hives that seemed to have quite a bit of activity (maybe 10-15 bees doing cleansing flights in front of the hives) has almost choked off it's lower entrance from dead bees which was another reason I decided to punch the holes. Although I agree with MP, I really do hate putting holes in my nice deeps =P


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Moon what is your elevation where you are at?


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

This is a rough guesstimate cause it's been awhile since I've looked at the sign on the way into town but I think our elevation is some where around 4300ft. I don't think it's as high as yours (I use to live in Butte) and weather we've had this year has been unusually warm and unusually dry. Crikey, we had RAIN yesterday! Rain in December? Can't remember another time when that's happened. Been a really, really mild fall/early winter. This was suppose to be a bad year to, maybe it's coming in January/February? Time will tell. As far as where I am. North East corner of Wyoming, Gillette.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Butte is a mile high. Gt falls about 3600 where I am. But you are in the sunny south compared to here right? It rained here too. Wish it would have been more. A grass fire took down power poles today and a few thousand lost power! We need winter!


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Hehe, south of you but far from the _sunny south_ :lpf:. We had a small storm come through this morning and drop about 2.5" of snow. Knocked the power out for about forty-five minutes this morning and winds were at about 40mph, nothing to crazy. I'm actually happy to say that's the worse we've had all winter. Man it does get quite a bit colder up there though in comparison. When do you usually start seeing dandelions? I'm trying to plan on when to start feeding syrup, I'm thinking mid to late march.


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## northbee (Apr 16, 2009)

Hey Adrian, 

How are your bees doing so far. I have had some losses and moved some honey that was left in the losses to hives/nucs that seemed lite. That was in the beginning of Feb and I have not been out to check them since. So far I am 14 alive out of 19 in october. 

The 14 that are still alive seem really good though. 

regards, Yuuki


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Yukki, good to hear from you. All 21 are still trucking along. No losses as yet, I won't start to feel safe until the dandelions are here. It was chilly this morning, but the sun is getting stronger, the days are getting longer, and life is good. 
If I have greater than 80% survival this year my plan is to dedicate 10 hives for honey production, and use surplus brood from the nucs to pump them up in time for the July flow. I want to make 25 new queens around the summer equinox, 1/2 from my italianish stock, and 1/2 from my darker stock. My goal next winter is to overwinter 15 nucs, instead of 9, and 10 hives instead of 12. My biggest learning last year was that timing is everything, and I was lucky. This year I aim to give myself a few more safety margins. I also am thinking of letting a couple of the hives make nothing but deep frames of honey to feed the nucs. This winter I have the bigger hives in a variety of configurations ranging from single deep with an empty box below all the way to three deeps; I think having a variety of combinations gives a person more chances of having bees alive in the spring - our weather is such a crapshoot that hedging your bets seems a good way to go. That said I plan to keep the balance of my hives in 2 storey 5 frame nucs for overwintering, and think of them as "queens with support staff" as Mike Palmer says. I am going to continue to use a brood break as varroa control and see where that takes me.


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

2 for 2 here- Golden rod flow was crappy here so I fed into fall and placed a pollen patty under 10lbs of cane sugar on a news paper. I also moved them to the south side of my barn for a wind break. It has been a mild winter. I did notice my NWC single deep has proprtiantely consumed about 30% less of the sugar than the russian/Italian crosses. Both hives were lite going in


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## northbee (Apr 16, 2009)

Adrian, 

That is good to hear of your success. Where have you aqquired your bees from? 
Do you attend the Hobby Beekeepers meeting in St Paul every month? I unfortunately have not been able to for awhile as I have been working on a building project in Eveleth. We are winding down and hopefully I will be able to come in April. I think the March meeting is goingto be a long shot. Maybe we can compare notes then. 

Thanks, Yuuki


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Yuuki, a dose of luck and good weather goes a long way. I think that this winter's success is an outlier in the big scheme of things, and I won't figure that I've got a sustainable apiary until I can be package-honeybee-purchase-free for 5 years. That's the criteria I've set for myself. To keep my life in balance I have no plans to expand beyond 10-12 honey producing colonies and 15 nucs to overwinter for support purposes, all in my backyard. It sure makes a person paranoid when they are all still alive. It's like holding a 4.0 GPA - the only way is down  It also means that there are no dead-outs to rob honey from if spring takes too long to get here. 

My colonies are headed by queens from OTS splits (MDA Splitter's method), and homebred swarm cells most of them are MH descendants; 3 of the 21 colonies are headed by purchased queens 1 Carniolan and 2 MH. 
5 nucs are headed by swarm cells from an overwintered queen that I got from a trap-out. The funny thing is that I've never seen any of these 5 queens! The bees are dark and I'm assuming the queens are also and thus harder to spot. The other 4 nucs are headed by OTS queens that I made when I accidentally killed their mother who overwintered the previous winter.
I bought two packages last spring and the purchased Carniolan from http://www.natures-nectarllc.com/index.html 
Jim gets his bees from Koehnens in CA. 

I don't get to the Hobby Beekeepers meeting every month either. It depends upon what speaker is coming, and whether it fits in with family life. If April works for both of us it would be good to see you and put a face to a name.


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## northbee (Apr 16, 2009)

Adrian, I will keep you posted about the meeting in April. I am going to learn more about the MDA splitters method. I have been reading alot about sustainable beekeeping on beesource. 

Thanks again.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

16 0f 17 survived. The deadout was from lack of stores. I should have taken the time to check closer on a warm day to see that they needed feeding. But I'm pleased.


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