# Using virgin Queens



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

*Re: Russell Queens*

That is a great idea. Problem is with their overload of late orders I would not think of trying to change mine. There is no contact anyway. Great idea for another year though!


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## beehugheshoney (May 18, 2012)

*Re: Russell Queens*

The virgins will make solid drones for you other grafts. There are so many grafts emerging every day that they don't have places for them because they over graft to be safe. They just throw them away. So the virgins won't slow up other orders anyway. I don't think they are as far behind as it seems here. If you count up the people complaining, its probably a few hundred queens and less than twenty people. They produce thousands of queens a week. You want me to get them to contact you about it? I have a few cell phone numbers that I'm not suppose to have. Ha ha ha!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

*Re: Russell Queens*

Hee hee, nice to laugh.
My order was for Three sunkist cordovans, two buckfast and two russian/italian.

$$ equivelent of virgins would be fine. They can forget about the russians though. Just sunkist and Buckfasts please.

Lauri Miller
[email protected]
253-843-1319


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## beehugheshoney (May 18, 2012)

*Re: Russell Queens*

Alrighty. Be back in 10.


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## beehugheshoney (May 18, 2012)

*Re: Russell Queens*

Done! It's good to have friends with bugs sometimes. Ha! The British lady, Victoria should be getting up with you soon. She was all alone answering emails and calls while they were all with Johnny's wife and baby. She even said that she had no idea why, but the emails and calls were more than ever so she's just getting further and further behind and its like every one of them were checking status of orders that aren't even due yet. Ha ha ha! I think the stir here has just caused a worry that caused communications to get further behind which was causing more of a stir, and it became a vicious cycle. She said she could get you a case of whatever you want in virgins. They were going to toss hundreds that emerged yesterday. They should be just what you needed.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

*Re: Russell Queens*

Wow, Thanks!
(Now I feel guilty since they are so busy and so many have not gotten their orders)
But thank you for taking the time to help. 
I'll have to go whip out some more mating nucs then. You just never know what tomorrow will bring do you?

Lauri


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## beehugheshoney (May 18, 2012)

*Re: Russell Queens*

Sure thing. Let me know how it works out!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

*Re: Russell Queens*

She emailed me right away and is sending a full box of virgin sunkist cordovans with a few buckfast. If I get a good mating return I will have a few to share will a few local people in my area who also are overdue for their orders. Got to share the wealth you know. 
You are a good guy, Hugh Thanks so much for your help.
Lauri


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## Jaseemtp (Nov 29, 2010)

*Re: Russell Queens*

I wish I had those kind of contacts.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: Russell Queens*



Lauri said:


> She emailed me right away and is sending a full box of virgin sunkist cordovans with a few buckfast.


You probably already know this but introducing virgins into a hive or nuc has its challenges. My success rate has been abysmal. 
Best of luck.


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## Ramona (Apr 26, 2008)

*Re: Russell Queens*

We make the hive queenless, even for only 20 minutes, smoke the hive fairly heavily and set the virgin in the space between two frames and watch her walk down.

If for whatever reason we can't make the hive queenless, we smoke the hive heavily and put the virgin as far away from the suspected frame where the mated queen may be hanging out then release the virgin.

We raise and release virgins into nucs and hives that have (or have recently had) queens and have very good acceptance rates.

I don't pinch the mated queens but split them off so they can keep making brood while the virgins are getting mated and setting up house.

Virgins are very cheap relative to mated queens - if one fails, it's not that expensive to try again.

Lauri, I think you're running over 50 colonies so if one or two fail, not such a big deal time wise.

We raise all our own queens from our survivor stock - it's great to have a supply as you need them and see the shift as the bees become more and more acclimatized to their environment.

Judging from all the agricultural stuff you are already doing, you will LOVE raising your own!

Ramona


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

*Re: Russell Queens*

Ramona

I have several queenless 5 frame nucs that have been queenless now for almost 2 weeks. I don't see any worker layers to date. So you would smoke them heavily and run her down between the frames and expect her chances of survial to be pretty good? What about rolling her in honey, or introducing her in a large push in cage over emerging brood. I'm purchasing a few virgins and not raising my own at this time.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

*Re: Russell Queens*



beemandan said:


> You probably already know this but introducing virgins into a hive or nuc has its challenges. My success rate has been abysmal.
> Best of luck.


I have 20 coming this week. I'm going to try ammonium nitrate in the smoker to help acceptance. There are several beekeepers who use that method with great success.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Russell Queens*

I'm going to be sharing a dozen or so of Adam Finkelstein's VP Spartan virgins with a friend of mine.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: Russell Queens*



camero7 said:


> I'm going to try ammonium nitrate in the smoker to help acceptance.


Let me know how that works out.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

*Re: Russell Queens*

Will do, queens should be here tomorrow and I should know in a couple of weeks if they took, mated and are laying. A friend of mine just installed 20 with the "old" method and it will be a decent comparison of the methods.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

*Re: Russell Queens*

I'll post a report in a day or two. Those 20 virgin queens will be here today and I have been scrambling to prepare for their unexpected delivery.(They were supposed to be mated, but due to circumstances I took virgins instead)
Yesterday I Made 15 more baby mating nucs out of some scrap 3/4" laminated plywood.
Today I brushed 3 deep box's of bees into a deep full of half frames to make them a queenles shook swarm and give the older bees and drones time to fly back to the original hive locations and old queens.
I'll have to place a small baggie feeder with syrup in the nucs, as I don't have candy to feed. I'll take two mini frames and the bees that are clinging to it and place them in the baby mating nuc, then install the queen in her shipping cage for a day. She is about 3 days old already and will have to be released as soon as she is accepted..I'll poke a hole in the candy for a fast release. I'll try a direct release or two first and watch closley. I'll let you know how it works out!
I'll give the inside and the top of the frames a little spray with Prohealth/water for a strong smell that will hopefully help mask the queens scent until they have become use to her. Using my disk excluders I will confine them until tomorrow evening.
That's the plan anyway! My weather here is horrable, raining like crazy and cool. But Friday and the weekend are going to be in the upper 70's. just about perfect timing for mating flights I'd say. I'm crossing my fingers I will get it right!


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: Russell Queens*

If the weather is warm (days & nites) I've introduced virgin queens on just emerging brood (no bees at all) and have a great success rate..........


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: Russell Queens*

OK, so what am I missing here?? Why aren't they mating those virgins vs. eliminating them either with the pinch throw out method, or shipping method??


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

*Re: Russell Queens*



snl said:


> If the weather is warm (days & nites) I've introduced virgin queens on just emerging brood (no bees at all) and have a great success rate..........


Thanks, I'll try that when it warms up.Sounds like a good idea!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

*Re: Russell Queens*



Brandy said:


> OK, so what am I missing here?? Why aren't they mating those virgins vs. eliminating them either with the pinch throw out method, or shipping method??


Here is one of my posts on another thread that will explain how I ended up getting virgin queens instead of mated queens:

I've been jealously reading for months, those in warmer climates working their bees and collection swarms, etc.
All the while my over wintered bees are still huddled in the hives, with only an occasional cleansing flight.
I wish I could be as patient as some of you who can be OK with accepting your queens anytime they should show.
If they 'show' here too late in the fall, They will just go right into a hive preparing to over winter, and you know how that goes.
The inactive period my bees have to endure is a little scary already. I have heard the Sunkist queens may not do well here in the North. My plan was to split my hives early, get a few of the strongest queens grafted and mated with local drones for a hardier bee that would stand a better chance for survival. 


From the post above, 
BeeHughshoney had a great idea I could just get virgin queens since I wanted to get their daughter queens mated with my local drones anyway. He contected Russell and they sent them out the same day. I'll give it a shot, sounds like another challenge to master


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## brac (Sep 30, 2009)

*Re: Russell Queens*

I hope when/if tragedy befalls you, no one cuts you any slack either.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: Russell Queens*



camero7 said:


> ammonium nitrate


Wow, that's a new one for me. Where did you hear about ammonium nitrate? Is this safe for the bees and beekeeper? 

What I do is treat virgins exactly the same as mated queens (slow candy release or push in cage).The smaller the colony the better, the more nurse bees the better. You can use a spray bottle with HBH to lightly mist the bees prior to installing the queen. Do not spray the queen. This is a very mild solution of HBH (either in plan water or with sugar water), don't make it too strong and don't use a lot. One pump per 5 frame nuc is plenty. It's not toxic to either bees or keeper and a little goes a long way.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: Russell Queens*

If the weather is warm (days & nites) I've introduced virgin queens on just emerging brood (no bees at all) and have a great success rate..........Actually I've used it with 100% success using mated queens also (again, warm days & nites)..........


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: Russell Queens*

"There are so many grafts emerging every day that they don't have places for them because they over graft to be safe. They just throw them away."

That's what I was missing, the extra over grafts etc........

I was thinking something was wrong with this picture!!


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

*Re: Russell Queens*



AstroBee said:


> Wow, that's a new one for me. Where did you hear about ammonium nitrate? Is this safe for the bees and beekeeper?


Ammonium nitrate when heated becomes laughing gas. It anesthetizes the bees and when they wake the bees accept the queen. Several beekeepers use it with success. I am trying it for the first time this week. I will post how it turns out. If the beekeeper sniffs it he gets the giggles


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

*Re: Russell Queens*



brac said:


> I hope when/if tragedy befalls you, no one cuts you any slack either.


 Lots of opinions about Russell. I am done talking about it and won't respond to those that know nothing about the situation and are nasty.

Maybe before you voice your opinion you should read this thread.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?268483-Russell-Queens



Brandy said:


> "There are so many grafts emerging every day that they don't have places for them because they over graft to be safe. They just throw them away."
> 
> That's what I was missing, the extra over grafts etc........
> 
> I was thinking something was wrong with this picture!!


And that works fine for me. Russell's are so stressed and overworked I felt bad about wanting my order, but I can't afford to throw away $200.+ ether. They got $$ for product they were going to throw away, and I got somethign for my money too. Hopefully it works well for both of us!


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

*Re: Russell Queens*

Queens arrived, the weather broke just long enough to install them. All went well except one flew away.
The buckfast were all acepted direct release. The sunkist were not accepted well and were installled in the shipping cage.

Remember in the post above I shook and brushed bees in to a deep box with 20 mini frames with a good sized starter strip. It worked well, here you can see I just took out each frame and placed it in the nuc between the two empty frames. Towards the end I used the frame and strip of foundation to scoop the bees up off the side and bottom of the box.









Baby nuc holds three half sized frame top bars, screened bottom with insert, Below you can see I put a quart heavy ziploc baggie with syrup for feeding. One very tiny poke in the top to let them feed









Here you see the baby nucs, a cardboard nuc divided in half to make two mating nucs and (I am ashamed to say it) top right you see 6 styrofoam coolers from the dollar store in case I get in a pinch for mating nucs.




































Below you see the $1.00 cooler with glued on strip to hold frames. Hardware cloth will hold in a pollen patty in the excess room in the lid. Baggie feeder will go in the bottom. I poked a lot of additional holes for ventilation. These are very light weight and would crush easily. Not good for someone like me with a lab puppy! But if I use them they will be wedged in between potted plants for protection.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

*Re: Russell Queens*

It is interesting that the one variety were easily accepted while the other not. I hope you will update the thread once the final results are in.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

*Re: Russell Queens*

I was thinking perhaps the Buckfast's were a bit younger than the Sunkists? I have read newly hatched virgins are accepted better than older ones.
Yes, I took the half frame with about 3" of foundation filled with bees and turned it on it's side on top the mating box. Letting the Buckfast queen go in the center of the foundation, I watched for a minute or so and they just totally ignored the buckfast queens like they were just any other bee. The queens walked around in a relaxed mannor. The bees did not even give her a second look.

The Sunkist however attracted attention immediately. The queens acted intimidated by the bees and were very still while they surrounded her. Then a few started acting aggressive and trying to sting and ball her. I tried only two times and it was the same both times-so I just went to the shipping cage release method-poking a toothpick sized hole in the candy.

One note, the shook swarm was from two different hives and was only queenless for about 5 hours before the introduction. Russell's sent the virgins out overnight and I was not prepared for their quick response.

I had 8 Buckfasts and 12 Sunkist Northern Select

I wish I knew exactly what day these queens were hatched so I could confine them for the longest time. Not knowing, one day is probably max.
Yes, I will update with info and photos when I have something to share 

Here is the method I used (Somewhat)
These are in a series and are amazingly informitive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZlQ7mNmf6o&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVwAiUJ4fdQ&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3lLihcBHkQ&feature=relmfu

Below is the video showing filling the mating nucs with bees and a virgin. I did not just shake her into the nuc as they do..theirs are probably newly hatched. I observed mine carefully with each introduction.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV-3Bz7TNlU&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELLczfL2bp8&feature=relmfu


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: Russell Queens*



camero7 said:


> Ammonium nitrate....


I've been present when ammonium nitrate was used in a similar manner....I'd consider it an emergency plan for securing bees in a very populated situation (knocks them out).

...but have you had poor results introducing virgins without such measures? In your part of the state there must be a hippy kid nearby with a nitrous tank 

deknow


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: Russell Queens*



Lauri said:


> I just went to the shipping cage release method-poking a toothpick sized hole in the candy.


Great job and thanks for posting your experience and methods. 

Regarding poking a hole in the candy, I've stopped doing that a long ago (even for virgins) - particularly if the bees are showing signs of aggression. When aggression is shown, then slower is better. The difference is about 1 or 2 days, which can really make a difference in acceptance, and has little or no effect on mating.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

*Re: Russell Queens*



deknow said:


> I've been present when ammonium nitrate was used in a similar manner....I'd consider it an emergency plan for securing bees in a very populated situation (knocks them out).
> 
> ...but have you had poor results introducing virgins without such measures? In your part of the state there must be a hippy kid nearby with a nitrous tank
> 
> deknow


Not much experience with virgins of any type:shhhh: But my understanding is, when they've been shipped with workers, they are harder to get accepted. A couple of very successful beekeepers use this method [Juanse and Bob Hack] and swear by it. I'll know in a couple of weeks.

I've been looking for that kid for years


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

*Re: Russell Queens*

Just checked my nucs in my nuc yard. Out of 13 virgins from Johnny I have 8 which took, 2 are queenless without cells, one may have a queen but didn't see her but there were several queen cells all torn down in the hive. And 2 others have queen cells and no queen. The math works for the queen cells. I think the AN is worth the effort. Several advantages that I see. No dead queens in the cages. Immediate release so you gain a few days in the breeding/laying cycle. No time for bees to start cells before the queen is in the hive. In 2 hives I used AN and put the virgin in with the other queens still present, one worked [two queens present] and one didn't. The queenless hive that I tried with AN was not successful. All-in-all I like the AN and I'm satisfied with the take in my nuc yard. I was a little nervous because the owner of the property has lots of bluebird and swallow bird houses and I was afraid many would get gobbled up. I think I'll stay with the virgins and AN. I have 4 mated queens coming next week. I'll use the AN to introduce them and see how that works. No blaming birds or dragon flies for them.


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## psisk (Jul 21, 2011)

*Re: Russell Queens*

lack of space.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

*Re: Russell Queens*



psisk said:


> lack of space.


 ???


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

*Re: Russell Queens*

Checked my other nucs yesterday afternoon. Final results, out of 22 virgins, 12 have laying marked queens, which gives about a 55% success rate. If I had purchased 22 mated queens from the same supplier I would have spent $440.00 [$20 X 22] the virgins cost $110. Shipping is probably a wash. So if I got 100% success rate on the mated queens [hard to do] and my 55% in the virgins, I save good $. I wanted VSH queens so raising my own from splits was not an option for me.I also had to bank the virgins for about 4 - 6 days due to bad weather. I wonder if faster hiving would have helped a little?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Russell Queens*



camero7 said:


> I also had to bank the virgins for about 4 - 6 days due to bad weather. I wonder if faster hiving would have helped a little?


I'm getting some virgins from VPQueens in a few weeks. One batch of queens wouldn't arrive until 4 days after their emergence and it was decided to wait for another batch. Adam Finkelstein suggested that it would be difficult for 4-day old virgins to be accepted. I think he said it would be a waste...


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

*Re: Russell Queens*

Adam is extremely knowledgeable so if he said that then my success rate is very good with AN. I'm getting 10 more this week and will put them in right away weather permitting. I do know that my results are similar to another very large beekeeper who uses AN exclusively to introduce virgins.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: Russell Queens*

.....I get at least that good a rate with queenlss nucs with no smoke direct release.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

*Re: Russell Queens*

Not to quibble Dean but my understanding is that you put the virgins in the hive directly from the vial they emerge into. No shipping, workers to feed them, no odors from other hives. I believe that makes a huge difference. Correct me if I'm wrong please.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: Russell Queens*

Often the first bees the queens encounter are at the introduction, but not always. If I have to transport or bank virgins, I will do so either queenlessly or queenright w/an exluder. ...always between frames of uncapped brood. I don't use queen candy, so the candy tube in the jzbz cage has to be stopped up with wax or paper (otherwise the virgins wedge themselves up in there and sometimes die). I sometimes bank them for up to two weeks...as they get older, they want to fly more.

I usually put the queen cage on the top bars to see how the bees react...sometimes I smoke them a little, most of the time not.

Some other tricks are opening up some capped honey and bathing the queen in it (I've seen this work even with mated queens being direct released). You can also smoke the crap out of the hive beforehand...but if the bees are calm and not reacting to the queen anyways, I don't bother.

You can also use a little unscented tissue to delay the release just a few minutes...enough time for the hive to calm down a bit from being opened.

As I raise my own, I always have more than I need. If one fly's away, it's ok. I'm generally using brood in the nucs from my not-worst hives...if they end up raising their own queen that is ok as well.


If I were buying virgins, I would probably use a push in cage over emerging brood for 12 or 24 hours. I am perpetuating what I'm trying to perpetuate no matter what happens (rolling the dice a little within my own stock).....in your case, you are spending money trying to change what you have....75% would get you much further along than 55% does.

I've been present when fertilizer is put in a smoker for a swarm of bees...given the fact that you've only tried this one way of introducing (and not the one I would consider the most foolproof), it seems premature to recommend it over other methods. Fertilizer in the smoker is a great fallback plan for getting a cluster of bees out of a populated place quickly while reducing the risk that they will start flying. 

Ripe cells are even easier.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

....one possible factor is that the jzbz cages have some kind of pheromone analog built into the plastic....I didn't learn about this until after I started using them. At some point I'll probably order some of the california cages and try them.

deknow


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Tried introducing virgins last year and had 0% success, so 55% seems pretty good to me. Much quicker and easier that the push in cage. I never recommend anything to others, just share what I do. I know some beekeepers have better success but I've not always had 100% with mated queens, several of the failures are raising their own queens so it's not a total loss. I think only 4 are completely queenless, with no cells. Also no danger of them flying unless it's in their sleep

A friend introduced 20 virgins with normal candy release. He reported that 3 died in their cages and it took 6-7 days for the queens to be released. Not sure what the final count was, but this method eliminates the delay in release and the dying in cages.

Thanks for the clarification.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Recently did 10 more virgins and 4 mated queens with AN and immediate release. I got 9 out of 10 successful mating with the virgins and 100% success with the mated queens. I am very happy with this method. Makes it a one stop visit to the yard with no worries about release or going back to retrieve the cages.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

camero7 said:


> Recently did 10 more virgins and 4 mated queens with AN and immediate release..... I am very happy with this method.


Cam.. (or anyone with experience using AN)
Would you tell us (me) a little more about using AN? How much in the smoker? Did you use a particular brand of fertilizer that had AN? Did it knock most of the bees out and if so for how long?

Thanks, 
Larry


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Hi Larry,

There's a long thread about AN here:
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=348

I use a couple of tablespoons in the smoker. It puts the bees out for around 5 - 10 minutes. I don't use fertilizer but pure AN.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Here's another discussion on AN:
http://community.lsoft.com/SCRIPTS/[email protected]&d=No+Match;Match;Matches&z=4


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Russell Queens*



BeeCurious said:


> I'm going to be sharing a dozen or so of Adam Finkelstein's VP Spartan virgins with a friend of mine.


I set some frames of brood above queen excluders to get them ready to use in my 3-frame medium nucs (queen castles) .

Will it be OK to setup the the queen castles a day before the arrival of the virgin queens?

The sealed/emerging brood frames that I have also have some older larvae. Will that keep the bees in place?


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