# you have got to be kidding



## I'llbeedan (Mar 31, 2013)

The first few years I kept bees I had one hive, did great for 3 years, two years ago I increased to 3 hives, and last winter I lost all 3. so over the summer I rebuilt and got to 10 figuring if I lost half I would still be in great shape. This fall I had three doing great with 2 full supers on them 2 were ok with 2 deeps full and 5 that were in various stages of growth, I combined three of them in one hive with two deeps full of stores, and combined the remaining to all the hives had two deeps that were chock full of stores except one which had 3 deeps. I did a sugar roll to check for mites in late august, and only one of the hives had any mites at all. two weeks later I did a 48 hour fall count which had no mites whatsoever in any hive. I also checked for Small Hive beetles and saw no evidence of them either. 

Yet two days ago I gave the hives a quick check for stores, and all sever were dead. now this is 100% loss two years in a row. 

What am I doing wrong? I di so well the first three years. Now I am so shaken I am thinking of giving it up.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Did you have ventilation in all your hives?


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I am so sorry to hear about your bad luck. Losing all your hives, twice, is really rough. I encourage you to try again, though.

I am just a newbie, but it is my thought that a mite count that doesn't show mites was not done properly, especially if the hives are treatment-free. In other words, are you sure your mite populations were really as low as you beleived at the time? Losing *all* well-stocked hives sounds like mites running amuck, to me.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

That's pretty crazy you lost them all.
Are sure about your mite loads? I only trust alcohol washes . But that's just me.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Where was your first hive from? Getting good stock non commercial helped me not have those kind of losses.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Kamon Reynolds said:


> Where was your first hive from? Getting good stock non commercial helped me not have those kind of losses.


That's what I did first year I lost 100% then I got local nucs {with in 300 miles} from 2 different bee breeder's and i have not bought bees for 2 years now.
I feel for ya I'llbeedan


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

It's really hard to say without knowing how you managed your hives and without see ithe hive itself. Here is my best guess.

-Poor genetics?
-Mites?
-contaminated comb from commercial crop exposures.?

If you bought nucs from an unknown apiary -especially from a warmer climate, and didn't requeen with a locally mated queen suited for your climate, didn't treat for mites and kept all the frames from unknown sources in your hives, all three could have been against you. 


Get a Locally mated queen, mated during the RIGHT time of year (June/July is best) 
Get RID of any frames that may have pesticide, fungicide, EFB contamination, etc. Burn them. Give up your honeycrop the first year..feed your bees and get _*new frames*_ drawn that are *clean*.
If in doubt, treat for mites. I Use Apivar for best exposure for all mites as they are exposed from hatching brood.

I tell folks , understanding the challlenges and management practices of commercial bee keepers will help you understand how to manage your hive shortly after purchase. I don't know where you got your packages or nucs, but it was likely from a commercial operation. Understanding the prior history of possible medications, treatments, and the queens mating date will tell you a lot. If they have become dependant on antibiotics, been actively rearing brood for months without current mite treatments and the queen was mated in March......

You can _*work up*_ to treatment free when your hives are clean and you have more experience and confidence. First you have to establish a clean hive with good genetics.

Without knowing more details, That's my opinion. Folks are warned and warned and warned about it. But they still overlook or ignore those things that will make or break your hives chance for successful overwintering. I've heard stories like yours hundreds of times.

A nuc or package is a STARTER colony. It is the only real way people who are new can get into beekeeping ._* YOU*_ have total power over what that hive becomes. Just installing it in a hive and watching it grow isn't taking the precautions necessary to assure it has the best chance for success.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I'llbeedan said:


> Yet two days ago I gave the hives a quick check for stores, and all sever were dead. now this is 100% loss two years in a row.


Can you fill us in on some details about what you found when you examined the dead hives. Pics of the frames would be great if you have any.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

I'llbeedan your in PA I may have a couple nucs come MAY .


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## gonzoBee (May 10, 2012)

sorry about your loss, I'm in Nazareth ,Pa I'm going on my 3rd year, this winter has just been brutal,first year i lost all my hives
i treated in Early August with Mite away Q.S. and i think that was key all 4 of my hives are still kicking strong, i agree with the guys on the mites being a major problem
going into Winter.
don't give up, i hope 2014 can become winner year for you..


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## I'llbeedan (Mar 31, 2013)

Three of the hives were started from Packages from Ohio 200 Miles away. in new hives with undrawn foundation

2 were splits from those hives with 1 year old drawn comb

Two were swarms caught locally on new frames

Three were from cut outs from an old farm house. They were combined and only had 25% of the comb from the cutout left in the hive

2 of the hives never showed any mites. And yes I know how to properly do a sugar roll. I was taught by a master beekeeper in the eastern apiculture society 

the others were treated in July with oxalis acid vapor on early July and showed no mite load in august. 

in all the hives there was a cluster of bees in the center of the top box, and only three to four frames of the honey had been used. and those were only partially used..

I fear it was my fault as I had no wind break and the hiver were on a hill. We recently experienced an cold snap, with high winds blowing off lake Erie for several days.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

There are several things that can cause a hive to fail to winter well. Mites is the obvious one these days, but EFB and protein deficiency will also cause "unexplained" losses.

Mites are easy to check for -- look in the brood combs for tiny white specks on the sides and bottoms of the cells. Presence of these mite droppings the bees have not cleaned out is diagnostic for mites. High mite loads going into winter means weak bees that die when it gets cold, the cluster shrinks fast, and the first really cold spell freezes them. You will sometimes find an empty hive, too as the remainder of the bees will leave when the queen dies and beg in at other hives. Probably not what did yours in, but check.

EFB will cause the brood to die before it's capped, leaving rubbery brown scales in the bottom of the cells in the brood nest. You can pick them out fairly easily with a toothpick or the point of a knife, and usually you will see them on the bottom of the hive where the bees have been tossing them. Usually a problem in the spring, but I suppose you could lose a hive to them in the winter.

More likely to my mind is inadequate pollen stores and subsequent death of the nurse bees when attempting to raise brood. It's a bit early, I think, but look for dead brood, either capped or close to it, and check the amount of pollen in the hive. Lack of pollen means protein starvation. I like to feed some pollen supplement in the fall as we don't always have good fall forage here.

I hope you can figure out what the cause was, it's rough losing ALL your hives at once.

Peter


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Sorry to hear that I'llbeedan....
I lost the last of my 4 hives last week when the temp
went from sub-zero to almost 20 above and i went out to see if they needed sugar
bricks or if they had survived ,,,,,,and they had died...
we had -43 deg F and they had done fine, but when I opened up the hive this time
I knew I had trouble when I removed the cover and saw frost....
It had warmed up enough to to cause condensation in the hive and form frost
and ice, and i think that as it melted the frost and ice ,the bees were covered with
32 deg water and i killed them......If the temp had kept on climbing and melted it all
I probably wouldn't have noticed. I also think 2 other of my hives succombed to this 
phenominum (sp)......They had plenty of supplies and a ton of bees....
It was one of those days when the garage floor was wet because the humidity was
collecting and condensing there,,,,,I think when surfaces are colder than the dew
point you get condensation and fog,,,,,in the future I'll pay more attention to dew
point as I think this is the cause of my problems......I'm hoping to indoor winter my
hives next year in a temp, humidity controled environment....Chin up buddy..

==McBee7==


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Perhaps you did not do anything wrong, perhaps it was something changed in your location, the environment around you.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

How was the Goldenrod flow this fall?

Crazy Roland


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

How was the Goldenrod flow this fall?

Crazy Roland


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

> You can _*work up*_ to treatment free when your hives are clean and you have more experience and confidence. First you have to establish a clean hive with good genetics.
> 
> Without knowing more details, That's my opinion. Folks are warned and warned and warned about it. But they still overlook or ignore those things that will make or break your hives chance for successful overwintering. I've heard your story hundreds of times.
> 
> A nuc or package is a STARTER colony. It is the only real way people who are new can get into beekeeping ._* YOU*_ have total power over what that hive becomes. Just installing it in a hive and watching it grow isn't taking the precautions necessary to assure it has the best chance for success.


I recently started a thread about treating new packages before they have brood in hopes of clearing varroa in the hive. The overwhelming response was that varroa is ubiquitous and that via drones etc all hives carry a varroa load. Experienced/knowledgeable bee keepers with very different opinions make it hard for newbies to figure out is fact and was opinion.

Can one have truly clean (pathogen free )hives?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

As far as mites go... are you sure you sampled correctly? I wouldn't trust looking at just mite fall, but it sounds more like hive conditions or lack of pollen maybe did all them in.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I fear that the crazy winter weather has made many beehives perish. This isn't the first time this winter I have heard of this exact scenario. 
Let me guess... they had plenty of stores (honey and pollen) and were all dead either on the bottom board or still in their cluster dead. All the signs and symptoms of not being able to generate enough heat to overcome the below zero temps outside after the warm, humid spell we had.
I lost six this way if it makes you feel any better. It does suck any way you look at it though.

On the bright side, I have craploads of honey, drawn comb for the next occupants, and LEARNED how to take steps to try and prevent this from ever happening again.


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## Broadside (Mar 29, 2012)

It's not those "evil" commercial guys ...it was freakin cold here and colder where you are! That's a ton of stress for the bees, a windbreak would have helped but what we had was way out of norm. Beeman is spot on, looks like you did all the right things for a non horrific cold snap. Put a windbreak in for next winter, you've got all the gear to restart and get ahead.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

The weather we just had almost nation wide was Arctic. As in where they bring hives into sheds for the winter. You can't really effectively prepare for that kind of nearly unprecedented event.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

From the things I have pick up. Sugar roll is a poor test For mites. It sounds like you a mystery genetics of queens. Just because it came from a swam doesn't mean it is a good queen. How much feed did they have. I know I had a lot of light hives this fall. Did you have some type of sugar board on them. Due to weather I haven't been able to check a bunch of hives seen the end of Dec. 

David


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I'llbeedan said:


> 2 of the hives never showed any mites. And yes I know how to properly do a sugar roll. I was taught by a master beekeeper in the eastern apiculture society
> 
> the others were treated in July with oxalis acid vapor on early July and showed no mite load in august.


It does not matter who taught you a method if it is unreliable. You can argue that fact if you wish. that you used that method and have dead hives begs to differ. A reliable method would have indicated the need before the loss of the hives.

I would say you should have treated more like in October. Mites have not even started their build up in July. Hit them just a week or so before they settle in for winter and brood production is at a low point.

Obviously if your bees where lost to mites you need two things. a more reliable way to know if the bees even have mites if you are determined to have to know that. and two a more effective treatment method.

As for me . I watch my bees for signs of mites. Sick bees coming out the entrance of the hive for example. Lowered production is another. a falling population when it should be rising. I very seldom see mites unless I pull drone pupa. that is my last confirmation when I have seen other signs. a test is only to confirm what i am fairly certain of anyway if i use one at all.

Most hives lost to disease will be lost in December. Target December as the month to have the bees in the best health you possibly can. Since treating in November in my area is out. I do it late October.


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## larrybeach (May 25, 2013)

Sorry to hear, without any new information I would suspect mites. I believe they are my biggest problem. One way to check is to open some drone brood and look. I now treat every fall, because every time I found mites. Good luck.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

RayMarler said:


> Perhaps you did not do anything wrong, perhaps it was something changed in your location, the environment around you.


I am thinking the same. What is in your location? Change in crops, neighbor doing chemical lawn care, or maybe hydrofracking.
It seems unusual that all ten would die due to mites. Roland might have something. Goldenrod flow would be a change. I could be losing all of my hives this year to mites or lack of goldenrod nectar.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I'llbeedan said:


> I did a sugar roll to check for mites in late august, and only one of the hives had any mites at all. two weeks later I did a 48 hour fall count which had no mites whatsoever in any hive


If I saw numbers like these....I would suspect that my testing was faulty. If these were your actual results, then I would take Glock's advice and do an alcohol wash. Collect half a cup of bees from a frame with brood...as that is where the mites hang out.
Good luck.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Lauri...i find it intetesting you say burn ebf combs yet dont mention afb which is a much worse disease. Bad advice...No need to burn efb combs as it dors NOT remain in the combs and ill bet my farm it didnt effect his bees. On the other hand if its afb. Burn it all. So you say burn combs with fungicides do how do you know or identify which ones have this? If you do ...with our envirment saturated with them bees are just going to bring in more. So its all the commercual guys fault? Lol. I NEVER had issues with queens or loosing bees until mites and neonictinoid pesticides. Queens mated in yoyr area ate adapted to it...i doubt that very muchvas bees are moved all over this country and moving genetics along with them. So if your breeder isnt in a isolated area his genetics will change and if new blood isnt brought in you have inbred bees.
Now here are the likely causes of his loss. Mites...but if he didnt see any i doybt that. And risking making some mad...i personally dont think beingva master beekeeper means you know it all....years of expierence mean more. Second...neonictiniods are a huge problem...and i find it intetesting this wasnt mentioned. Were your bees around corn? For thevladt few years ive had good bees in the fall and lots of dead bees. Started marking where the hives were all summer and found bees in the areas whete no corn or large amounts of crops sprayed were i have 90 percent survival while if around corn i have 40 to 80 petcent loss. Alot of this prsticide is designef to be carried back and sterlize the insects queen. I have found queens in hives 3 months old and just stopped laying. Test are finding spearm is dead in the queen and some other insecticides just cause her to stop laying. With corn around you will get a brood pattern that looks like efb...but its a virus caused by neonictiniods mrssing with the bees immune system. Bees will start downhill in fall and dwindle away. What is around you? 
Third Lack of fall flow can cause small clusters to freeze in brutal weather. Yes windbreaks will help.
Now Lauri lets go back to locally raised nucs. (Yes im commercial and i sell nucs) A guy in KY raises his queens and has lically raised nucs...a good beek. Last year he sold two nucs to a beek. Corn all around them and by november they dwindled away...dead. it has nothing to fo with commercial. It has to do with our enviroment. Corn only takes up 6% of the insecticide 94% remains in the ground. It lasts about 10 yeats so the level of concentration increases each year. Way above the sub lethal or lethal dose. Had a beek friend take two loads to michigan. It was a late spring and henbit was blooming in the previous years corn fields and all the colonies made a box of honey and started dwindling away....folks if youre this stuff you are going to have problems. It is now showing up in our ground water. We are going to End up drinking this stuff. Go do some research! Commercial guys moved bees for years without issues and ate not the problem. The problem is mite control and our contaminated enviroment. Lauri go do some research and learn. There are good bees from commercial and small guys!


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> Most hives lost to disease will be lost in December.


I can't say I agree at all with this. Winter failures are common to be sure....but depending on the severity of disease/parasite infestation will determine how long into winter they survive. I used to see most of my deadouts in February.
Nothing universal in these things....in my opinion.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

When I checked my yard late summer, I was very surprised to see my hive that was the worst for mites was a cut out I'd done from an old growth cedar log. The other few hives I had to treat were swarms I'd caught. My own hives looked great, but I use brood breaks and VSH genetics too. 

I don't use OA. In my opinion, it's too late to wait until there is little or no brood to treat in early winter if it is necessary. I will use Apivar right after the flow, if it is necessary to treat. In the past, I've waited until Sept to treat for mites, and was sorry I waited even that long.

Because I feed _some_ fortified syrup during our late summer dearth, my bee numbers stay decently strong so mite loads don't effect me as much as someone who lets there hives reduce down significantly. I have lots of young healthy bees going into winter. These strong late summer hives can deal with mites well on their own, when days get shorter and brood rearing is decreased, mite loads don't take over and are groomed off well.

I'm still guessing here..just trying to give ideas for the OP's loss issue. 

There was some talk here on Beesource where a few people assured folks there bees would be fine in the cold temps..not to worry. I knew there would be a lot of dead outs that would be blamed on the cold. Although precautions for overwintering may not always be necessary, I feel better protecting my investment.

My most importaint bees are the ones going into the winter. Because I raise queens and am not interested in a honey crop, I manage my bees differently than some. I need good strong hives overwintering so I have large numbers early spring to break up into mating nucs. But you know what the results are? A hell of a lot of honey and little if any winter losses. Go figure.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

beemandan said:


> I can't say I agree at all with this. Winter failures are common to be sure....but depending on the severity of disease/parasite infestation will determine how long into winter they survive. I used to see most of my deadouts in February.
> Nothing universal in these things....in my opinion.


From the info I am going on losses in February would be due more to starvation rather than disease.


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

I'llbeedan said:


> I fear it was my fault as I had no wind break and the hiver were on a hill. We recently experienced an cold snap, with high winds blowing off lake Erie for several days.


Illbeedan, I am so sorry to hear about your losses for the past two years. Hopefully, combining the various strategies you receive from this thread along with what your gut and your senior beekeepers in your local club are telling you actually went wrong, you'll try again this coming year and be much better prepared when winter comes next year. 

NOTE: As you can see from where I live and from my experience level, that's about the only wisdom I'm able to pass along to you.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Lauri said:


> When I checked my yard late summer, I was very surprised to see my hive that was the worst for mites was a cut out I'd done from an old growth cedar log. The other few hives I had to treat were swarms I'd caught. My own hives looked great, but I use brood breaks and VSH genetics too.
> 
> I don't use OA. In my opinion, it's too late to wait until there is little or no brood to treat in early winter if it is necessary. I will use Apivar right after the flow, if it is necessary to treat. In the past, I've waited until Sept to treat for mites, and was sorry I waited. Because I feed _some_ fortified syrup during our late summer dearth, my bee numbers stay decently strong so mite loads don't effect me as much as someone who lets there hives reduce down significantly. I have lots of young healthy bees going into winter. These strong late summer hives can deal with mites well on their own, when days get shorter and brood rearing is decreased, mite loads don't take over and are groomed off well.
> I'm still guessing here..just trying to give ideas.
> ...


Youre exactly right! You need to feed and make sure bees going into winter are heathy. Doing mite treatments in august are a must. Then treating again when broodless is a good idea. If you dont have a good fall flow and dont feed you go into winter with old bees and by spring you have dead or small colonies. But if you are around all the GMO and systemic pesticides you will still have queen and survival issues. In my beekeeping classes I teach one of my talks i ask when does the new year start for bees. My answer(for ky) is august 15. What you do with mites, what rainfall we get and how much young brood in the hives determines next years crop. On white clover a bad fall drought equals little honey the following year.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

I'llbeedan:

I am in Ohio, but I want to point out that for the last 2 years we did not have a very good pollen flow in the fall/august. That could contribute to the poor wintering. Did you notice any pollen stores in the fall? For a hive in 2 deep bodies, you'll need at least 4 frames of pollen. Are there any pollen frames left right now?

This fall, I've noticed that all the later splits were extremely light on pollen, so I supplemented in August. Maybe try supplementing in Aug next year and see if you get better wintering. To get "fat bees" in order to overwinter, they need pollen.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

(Lauri...i find it intetesting you say burn ebf combs yet dont mention afb which is a much worse disease. Bad advice...)

I believe what I said was "Get RID of any frames that may have pesticide, fungicide, EFB contamination, *etc*." Etc, would also include other issues. For a newish Hobbyist that has suffered 100% losses, I believe contaminated comb _could_ be a contributing factor. In the case of the OP, he stated his bees were installed on new frames so this wouldn't apply. 
At the time of my reply I didn't know that, but it may apply to others with dead out problems.

I am assuming the most folks would like to be treatment free or treatment reduced. If you do not plan to continue antibiotic treatment and your new nuc has become dependant on it for health, you will be in trouble if you don't get rid of those frames with an unknown history and change the genetics. That's just my opinion. 

When I said to 'burn them' (the old frames), I mean: if you take them out of your hives and don't dispose of them, you will probably be tempted to use them again when you're desperate for a few drawn frames. 
Same reason I gelded my stallion. I knew when my mare came into heat in spring I'd be tempted to use him 


(There are good bees from commercial and small guys!)

I never said they were bad or the commercial guys were Evil. Agriculture on a commercial scale is an incredibly difficult feat. What I said was:

" Understanding the challlenges and management practices of commercial bee keepers will help you understand how to manage your hive shortly after purchase. Understanding the prior history of possible medications, treatments, and the queens mating date will tell you a lot. *If *they have become dependant on antibiotics, been actively rearing brood for months without current mite treatments and the queen was mated in March...... "

Am I incorrect with this discription of most packages and nucs prepared after Almond Pollination for early April delivery to Hobbyists?

Commercial guys have bees to make a living from pollination services and honey, not to present hobbyiest with magical perfect bees. But that is what many new beekeepers expect. I''m just trying to be real here...

Picture hundreds or thousands of new nucs and packages being prepared..lots of employees, time and temp sensitive product. Billions of angry bees. Unstable spring weather....And that doesn't include the previous few months of labor and management challenges.

When I am working out in the cold and rain in late winter to prepare my products for spring sales, I wonder if my customers realize the working conditions I go through to produce those products. Those vegetables and pretty flowers don't just appear on their own. It can be miserable work that time of year, but the results are amazing...If unpredictable weather doesn't kill it.


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## I'llbeedan (Mar 31, 2013)

I seriously do not think it was mite That played a roll in the demise of the hives. I do not understand what happened to make a sugar roll no longer effective for checking for mites. When done in July it reveled the loads. I also check drone come for mite sign. 

I have not thoroughly checked every hive, but those I have had pollen as well as honey. and lots of it. I weighed the upper box on the hive to went through and it weighed 78 pounds. 

Guess I will call it bad luck, bad weather, or whatever and try one more time.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> From the info I am going on losses in February would be due more to starvation rather than disease.


Simply my experience....and not from starvation. As I said....I don't believe there is any universal answer to these things.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I went back and reread you OP. I am guilty of skimming and wanted to mention something else I noticed. 

Something to consider with late summer or fall combining. I think many times there may be more than one queen in a hive that time of year. Late daughter AND mother queen. I see it all the time at my place. If you miss one of those and combine, you can have a war. I never combine in fall anymore..but if I did, I'd do it through an excluder and newspaper.
But that wouldn't explain your high loss %.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>I seriously do not think it was mite That played a roll in the demise of the hives.

>There are several things that can cause a hive to fail to winter well. Mites is the obvious one these days, but EFB and protein deficiency will also cause "unexplained" losses.

I think Mites take allot of blame for hives crashing when EFB is the cause.

Then the beek will try another package in the infected comb and their package never get a good start the dies in the fall.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I think even a beginner would recognize AFB infection. At least the op would have recognised there was a problem long before now.

EFB is not a real killer, but I guess I'd call it an easily overlooked, quiet chronic infection that reduces vigor. Combined with mites and/or poor genetics-poorly mated queen..Well, I've already given my 2 cents.

My point is, if you want to know for SURE you have to take control and manage your hive proactively.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

FlowerPlanter said:


> I think Mites take allot of blame for hives crashing when EFB is the cause.


I figure it the other way around. Generally speaking, the hives I've seen with any evidence of EFB in the past few years also had heavy mite infestations. I believe that most hives have the potential for EFB and those that are otherwise challenged are the most likely to exhibit symptoms.


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## DCH (Aug 30, 2004)

Sorry for your loss. We're located in Ohio just west of Clevleand, about 5 miles off the lake so we're about the same in climate zone and getting that stiff wind off the lake in winter. Lots of good opinions on what could have happened but there was one question someone else asked that might bear some thought. How was the ventilation in your hives? We've had girls in small clusters survive the typical one-two week "bad" January freeze without extra protection and without issue - likely because they stayed dry within the hive. If you found any ice or dampness on the inside of the lids, chances are the girls froze from the cold *and* dampness. Just a thought.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Kinda confused...Did you just combine the honey or the bees too. What did you do with the queens? Did you see abnormal high amounts of bees outfront afterwards


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## poppy1 (Feb 1, 2013)

I know what you are feeling my friend as I lost all 10 of my hives this past year, all my die offs began after January 20, OMG I still have know clue either as they all had good stores and pollen, no GMO in my area and I run all VSH stock, very disappointing when we work and try so hard to keep our ladies alive and flourishing, sorry my friend, right now I got 9 going and seem to be doing well, fingers crossed


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

DCH said:


> Lots of good opinions on what could have happened but there was one question someone else asked that might bear some thought. How was the ventilation in your hives? We've had girls in small clusters survive the typical one-two week "bad" January freeze without extra protection and without issue - likely because they stayed dry within the hive. If you found any ice or dampness on the inside of the lids, chances are the girls froze from the cold *and* dampness. Just a thought.


What is your strategy for ventilating your hives in winter to keep them dry?


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

I'beedan, I live in the Western Catskills....what I did this year was treat with MAQS in late summer/ early fall; made a candy board in a 2 inch shim ( with an entrance) with an 1/8 or 1/4 in screening in bottom; 16 lbs. sugar with 2 or 3 cups water; pressed a layer in then added a small 3x3 inch piece of pollen pattie and covered that with more sugar/candy...made sure there was an opening in this near the upper entrance...wrapped the hives in roofing paper. When the weather predictions were to be severely cold, we added foam board on the hives as well. I checked them last week and all was well; one of the hives had eaten at least 1/2 the candy and the pollen pattie; that was my weakest hive. Being new and my first winter, I was very apprehensive about this winter season, so what I did was probably overkill. I am keeping my fingers crossed that they live into the spring. From what you have said so far it seems as if you are narrowing down the problems you had....this spring I would like to compare notes with everyone who lives in the REALLY cold parts of the northeast. Don't give up!
PS I believe I have good ventilation in the hives


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

My suggestion is drop back to two hive and get your confidence back. If you have a ventilation problem seems to me you would have found that in the first hives that you were successful with.


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## I'llbeedan (Mar 31, 2013)

I really found no excessive dampness in the hives, No frost or anything, but it was 50 Degrees when I checked. the bee caucuses were not wet . I had the telescoping covers pulled back, with 1/4" shims holding them up in the back, The upper entrance is 3/4" semicircle but the telescoping cover was against that. the bottom board had a 1/2" opening and a 1/2 circle below the SBB. 
I have been racking my brain. the only thing different from the years when I had great success is the location. my first three years I was in Mercer in a sheltered woodlot... now I am on an open hillside near the lake. 

How do I know if my comb is contaminated? As I said I have not tore into all the hives and do not plan to until early to mid march. But what I have seems normal, no signs on EFB or AFB or chalkbrood or anything as yet. But if the comb is contaminated how would one know. should I just burn it all to be on the safe side. I do not mind getting new stuff, I just hate to think all my girls are dying because I an doing something wrong. 

The real funny thing is when I did the cutouts from the old farm house I gave two of them to a friend who wanted to start with bees. We put them in a couple of my old hives, and used the frames and comb from my hives that died out the winter before. including the honey that was in them. both those hives are boing fine.


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## I'llbeedan (Mar 31, 2013)

burns375 said:


> Kinda confused...Did you just combine the honey or the bees too. What did you do with the queens? Did you see abnormal high amounts of bees outfront afterwards


I went through the hive frame bay frame and found the queen, pinched her off, left them for a day queenless, then did a newspaper combine. On the one I combined 3 hives I did the same then a week later did the same with the third hive. I then consolidated the frames of stores to ensure both combines had two deeps full of stores. 
in both cases the combines when normal with only minimal bee loss. they were flying and acting as a n average hive community.


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## bbrowncods (Oct 10, 2012)

From your last post, it sounds like they are just getting blasted with uber wind and cold off the lake. Move them.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Dan, there are countless posabilities as to what happened, the reality is you may never know for sure, every beekeeper honestly believes the methodology they utilize is the best possible. to believe anything different would be to admit that we are not doing right by our charges. Do not concentrate on how you have done what is done, or how others think it should have been done. assimilate the information offered along with any speculative interpretations of the circumstances and filter through them. Glean what you can and look upon it as a learning experience.
I will Be speaking at your February meeting. After which I can run over and we can go through a hive together to see what we can or cannot find. Until then just do what you are doing, research and pick the minds of those here. 
Knowledge, is power, How we get it is Information!


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I'llbeedan said:


> I have been racking my brain. the only thing different from the years when I had great success is the location. my first three years I was in Mercer in a sheltered woodlot... now I am on an open hillside near the lake.


In post #14 I stated:
Perhaps you did not do anything wrong, perhaps it was something changed in your location, the environment around you. 

I think you've found the answer.


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## green2btree (Sep 9, 2010)

Lots of good ideas here, I will say that I have had less losses since I have moved my bees from the more exposed upper hill location to a lower side of the hill in a wood cut. I too have had big losses (last winter was brutal after the drought) still looking to improve the care of my girls. Always something to learn.

JC


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I'llbeedan said:


> I really found no excessive dampness in the hives, No frost or anything, but it was 50 Degrees when I checked. the bee caucuses were not wet . I had the telescoping covers pulled back, with 1/4" shims holding them up in the back, The upper entrance is 3/4" semicircle but the telescoping cover was against that. the bottom board had a 1/2" opening and a 1/2 circle below the SBB.
> I have been racking my brain. the only thing different from the years when I had great success is the location. my first three years I was in Mercer in a sheltered woodlot... now I am on an open hillside near the lake.
> 
> How do I know if my comb is contaminated? As I said I have not tore into all the hives and do not plan to until early to mid march. But what I have seems normal, no signs on EFB or AFB or chalkbrood or anything as yet. But if the comb is contaminated how would one know. should I just burn it all to be on the safe side. I do not mind getting new stuff, I just hate to think all my girls are dying because I an doing something wrong.
> ...


So why are his fine? Location of hives from wind, insulating the hives, wrapping hives, hive setup changes, treatments different, feeding... not feeding? Come on detective Dan, do some digging.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

I have my hives in the open on top a hill they get sun all day long .
I have wind breaks and wrap them but I didn't wrap 3 this year just to see how they do so far there doing well.
We get wind so bad some times that the house shakes and have had wind chill as low as -40 this year and no loses yet last year I lost about half by now the only difference is I treat this pass fall and my weakest nuc is still hanging tuff .
I bet wind my be your problem if you say you did every thing right what else could it be .
I know you don't need to hear this again but do alcohol wash's next year.
I lost all my bee first year and it will never happen again I feel for ya.
Good luck in 2014.
Look at this pic see all the thing I do to protect then from the wind. Even the bottom entrances has a wind break just saying losing all 10 some thing is way wrong.

This is just one yard I have 3 .


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I'llbeedan said:


> I have been racking my brain. the only thing different from the years when I had great success is the location. my first three years I was in Mercer in a sheltered woodlot... now I am on an open hillside near the lake.


This might be the location difference. There should be at the very least a solid wind break for this location. Are their camps on the lake and do they spray because of the camps? I don't believe in wrapping especially around a lake. How good is the fishing? That will give you a good indication on whether the lake is contaminated.

I would not burn the equipment unless AFB is confirmed. To me that is over reacting.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

A healthy hive with food stores can survive some pretty nasty weather just fine. I am not saying that Erie, PA has mild winters, but hives much further north than Erie do survive their winters with high success rates.

If it was the weather conditions that killed your hives, my newbie guess is that the weather was just the final straw. Something else had weakened the hives, and the weather was just the coup de grace. In other words, susceptibility to weather is a symptom of another problem.

I know you feel the mite load was sufficiently under control that the cause wasn't mites, and with the testing and treating that you report, you could very well be correct. 

Until you tear the hives down and do a thorough and careful inspection of the brood nest, we can only guess at the cause.


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## I'llbeedan (Mar 31, 2013)

Acebird said:


> . How good is the fishing? That will give you a good indication on whether the lake is contaminated.
> .


It Is Lake Erie for crying out loud. The Cuyahoga river which flows into Erie at Cleveland Caught fire! What do you think? :scratch:

No Actually Erie Is considered one of the great recoveries of the 20th century. The walleye fishery is great, and we harvest daily limits of Steelhead from December to April, when we can get out.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I'llbeedan said:


> I went through the hive frame bay frame and found the queen, pinched her off, left them for a day queenless, then did a newspaper combine.


Back to the combining for just a minute.
After you completed all of your combinations, did you confirm later in an inspection that there was brood and a laying queen in all the colonies?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Hopefully it wasn't a Rocky/ UFC Main Event going on inside your combined hives! 

ADRIANNNNNNNNNNNNNN


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

"Gonna Fly Now" ... Now I have that stupid song stuck in my head. Thanks Lauri!


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

Dan, I think TENBEARS offer is your best solution, an hour with him in your bee yard would seem invaluable. Cheers.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I have no doubt that sub zero temperatures and high winds will overwhelm any hive that is not protected, I have lost hives with no windbreaks and others with good windbreaks survived. so now all my hives have their SBB"s closed for winter as any wind just sucks the heat out of the hive.and protected from the prevailing winter winds. I also find that foam under the telescoping lid helps a lot.
John


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

I'llbeedan said:


> It Is Lake Erie for crying out loud. The Cuyahoga river which flows into Erie at Cleveland Caught fire! What do you think? :scratch:
> 
> No Actually Erie Is considered one of the great recoveries of the 20th century. The walleye fishery is great, and we harvest daily limits of Steelhead from December to April, when we can get out.



I love perch, every year we go to Lake St. Clair to Hunt diver ducks and I also mow a few plates of perch. mmmm so good.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

I looks like every one has an answer for you..lol...anyway, I'll just throw in a couple of questions.
I wondered how close are you to lake erie? I know your on the south side of the lake and if
your weather is like ours, most of the time the weather comes from the northwest. and for
you thats right across the lake....also, you mentioned fishing from dec-april, I assume thats
ice fishing--not open water, but there are places even here where the water stays open and 
if it is you can get fog...You can also get fog off of ice...They call it direct conversion..The
h2o changes from a solid (ice) to a vapor (fog) in one step,,,it skips the liquid state...all that
to say you could be in a very high humidity area. and condensation could be water, and not
necessarily ice and frost.....also if when you checked it was 50 deg outside, there wouldnt
have been any ice or frost at that temp. and any dampness would have probably dried by
the time you got into it,
thanks for telling us your story..we've all had similar experiances..

==McBee7==


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## I'llbeedan (Mar 31, 2013)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Back to the combining for just a minute.
> After you completed all of your combinations, did you confirm later in an inspection that there was brood and a laying queen in all the colonies?


Yes I did, I continued my hive checks up until December. when the temperatures began to go below freezing regularly.


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