# really, I'm not joking



## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Okay, so I'm curious to what you commercial guys think of this, specifically the migratory pollinators. I'm serious about building a business doing beekeeping. I would imagine that with all the blood sweet tears countless zombie hours and working full time I could probably make the 500 hive mark in 10 years building by myself. Maybe that's an outrageous claim and I'm smoking the pipe.

Then it hits me, I have an idea. Now I consult you first considering I want to take great care not to offend anyone for saying any of this.

If a person approached you and propositioned you to take their hives to follow yours throughout the year and they gave you a cut of their profit from the hives, would you just laugh and turn away or consider the potential of making more from the labor without directly having to keep them? Then the question begs to ask, at what hive count for it become worthwhile?

It would seem that with an outfit already equipped to handle theirs and open to more growth that they would consider it a viable idea. 

Is this just all crazy talk here?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

hex0rz said:


> If a person approached you and propositioned you to take their hives to follow yours throughout the year and they gave you a cut of their profit from the hives, would you just laugh and turn away


Not being unkind but probably yes, maybe not the laugh though. It would just be a business decision.

Over the years I have had more people than I can remember wanting to "tag along and learn" and it's likely the same for other beekeepers. Even though these people are very earnest and truly believe they are helping me, almost invariably I lose more than I gain. Unlike a paid employee they can be rather pedantic about start and finish times, I've actually been part way through a days work and the guy says he has to go home now, an hours drive away. Considering how much production he added I would have been better on my own. That kind of thing. Another common one is the guy thinks he is working pretty hard and although he said he would work for nothing, starts feeling like he should really be getting paid and starts dropping hints. But the reality is I'm doing 10 hives to his one, plus getting called over to his hive every second time to sort some problem, that he caused. It would be faster on my own, and less damage to my hives.

Over here on our local bee forum we sometimes see people complaining that they have approached x number of beekeepers offering to work for free, but nobody will take them up on it. Well they may not understand, but there is a reason for that.

Additionally, if you want to build up your own hives while following the other guy around, with your hives in tow, to the beekeeper it would seem quite clear you want to learn everything he knows, do what he does, in his location, and eventually be competition right on top of him.

Don't take what I say as an attack or anything cos it's not, it's just the other guys perspective. If or when you have your own bee business, and someone approaches you with a similar request, then you will understand, even though now you may not.

To get into the commercial bee business you are very likely to fail unless you go in with commercial experience. To get it, it's best to take a straight up job with a beekeeper, on wages. But do explain you are hoping to go into the business so you need an all round experience, not just 3 months in an extracting room. Choose someone who is OK with that. While working for him start to build up your own hives but don't expect anything from him in help for your bees, you make them sink or swim don't bother your boss with it.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I wouldn't do it pretty much for all the reasons that OT gives. I actually had an arrangement similar to this once in which I got no labor but got all the honey in exchange for returning him his bees late each summer with new queens so he could run them for almond pollination. He had a good day job and simply wanted someone who he knew would take care of them from March through August. We did this for three years and parted amicably. We got some nice honey crops off of them and he was pleased with the quality of the hives he got back but I ultimately decided I could just as easily expand my own operation and not have to worry about the health of someone else's bees.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> Not being unkind but probably yes, maybe not the laugh though. It would just be a business decision.
> 
> Over the years I have had more people than I can remember wanting to "tag along and learn" and it's likely the same for other beekeepers. Even though these people are very earnest and truly believe they are helping me, almost invariably I lose more than I gain. Unlike a paid employee they can be rather pedantic about start and finish times, I've actually been part way through a days work and the guy says he has to go home now, an hours drive away. Considering how much production he added I would have been better on my own. That kind of thing. Another common one is the guy thinks he is working pretty hard and although he said he would work for nothing, starts feeling like he should really be getting paid and starts dropping hints. But the reality is I'm doing 10 hives to his one, plus getting called over to his hive every second time to sort some problem, that he caused. It would be faster on my own, and less damage to my hives.
> 
> ...


Are you saying free labor is worth even less than it costs you. A lot of things are like that.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

dsegrest said:


> Are you saying free labor is worth even less than it costs you. A lot of things are like that.


I had a hired man quite a few years ago that undoubtedly cost me more in screw ups than he ever made me. I didn't pay him much but the thing is, his likability factor and easy going personality more made up for it. I just couldnt bring myself to fire the guy. I would tell him on a regular basis (with a smile on my face) that I like working with him because he really dosent hardly slow me down at all.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

I run a business in a skilled profession, Weekly I have people ask me to teach them the trade. they are willing to work for nothing to learn. And just as old timer said it reduces my productivity significantly to take on an apprentice. The instructional factor take my time away from what I can produce, and the mistakes cost me materials and my time to correct. a struggle that goes on for months. Just as they begin to grasp the skill and ability to do a somewhat proper job the begin to think they are gods gift to the craft and are making me a ton of money. I have had them show me *Their* calculations on paper. before you know it they have a competing business with a sign saying Former Tenbears Apprentice so as to take proper advantage of my reputation. All the while telling everyone who walks through the door what a hack I am. So just why would anyone want to share the secrets of their profession with a free helper! Today I will teach you for $250.00 per day and a contract with a signed no competition clause.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Although OT was accurate and polite, I must side with Tenbears. We often get requests for some one to tag along for a day, but ussually decline. So how much is the OP willing to pay?

Crazy Roland


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

It is really nice how polite all of you have been! It is a difficult proposition and the value of someone's time and expertise. My dad would sometimes tell me, "people can't afford experience".


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

As beekeeping is becoming more of a "profession" it seems that the people wanting to learn the profession ought to pay to get the knowledge needed to run such an operation.

The college my daughter goes to "requests" a fee of $200 per day to transfer the "knowledge" of the professors to the students. 

If the value of the "education" received from a professional beekeeper is of such value that the student will gain something from garnering the knowledge they ought to pay.

The notion that "beekeeping" knowledge should be free is absurd.. Nothing else in life is.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

The goal of hitting 500 in ten years is quite modest and more than doable in my experience and observation. 

If thats your goal start with 25 the first year and add 35% each year.

More than doable....


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I started with 12 singles which turned out to be honest three frame nucs in bad equipment with some AFB. They were promised in early May and Igot them mid June and unbelievably i got a sixty pound average. Great pasture. I added 25 packages in the spring and wintered a few of the 12. I sold my crops at farmers market and put every penney back in and every dollar i could otherwise earn or steal from the house budget. After five years, I had 300 paid for hives and a part time job for a commercial guy who let my work off my extracting. I had partially learned the business and had done it all with an old galvanized 20 frame root extractor and a sixties one ton cornbinder with a 8X12 flatbed I welded up out of five cent a pound scrap channel iron all less tha twenty inches long, the drop from an implement mfg. Fantastic pasture and big crops when the ND annual avg was 148 pounds.

Bottom line is no overhead, debt, sleep or recreation, just work. After two years at 300, I had the money in the bank for a bigger truck and a trip south to texas to winter and divide. Did I mention no recreation? The unrecreated wife being sick of my schedule and the immenent leaving of my day job, took that saved money and my sons to California where she ruined them.

That was the end of my empire and a cautionary tale. Make sure your spouse is in for the struggle.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Sorry to hear that Vance, how are the bees doing now?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Vance G said:


> ......... Make sure your spouse is in for the struggle.


This has got to be the best advice for all the wanna bee big timers who either have a family or wish for one. 

Forget talk about free equipment or bank loans at 1%. Having a spouse on board with the plans and pain which will be encountered is far more important than any other item a guy ( or gal) could place on ones priority list.

Having that item in its proper place will make securing the rest a much more enjoyable and rewarding experience. 

Sharing the "spoils" of a bee operation is of much joy when the parties that make it happen live in harmony!!!!! 

Without it ......:lookout:


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

Honey-4-All said:


> As beekeeping is becoming more of a "profession" it seems that the people wanting to learn the profession ought to pay to get the knowledge needed to run such an operation.
> 
> The college my daughter goes to "requests" a fee of $200 per day to transfer the "knowledge" of the professors to the students . . .


Huh? I thought Davis was expensive, what school is that? Standford or Wharton -- name that ivy-league.

Simply curious,

Marc


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JRG13 said:


> Sorry to hear that Vance, how are the bees doing now?


Sarcasm? After a story like that?


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

jim lyon said:


> I had a hired man quite a few years ago that undoubtedly cost me more in screw ups than he ever made me. I didn't pay him much but the thing is, his likability factor and easy going personality more made up for it. I just couldnt bring myself to fire the guy. I would tell him on a regular basis (with a smile on my face) that I like working with him because he really dosent hardly slow me down at all.


I grew up in a laundry. Most of our workers were illiterate. There was a system of slotted tags on pins with net bags and slotted rails that would not accept an incorrect pin. 

When my dad taught me how to sort the wet wash, he told me it was impossible to screw up, but he was sure I would figure it out. He was right.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Oldtimer said:


> Not being unkind but probably yes, maybe not the laugh though. It would just be a business decision.
> 
> Over the years I have had more people than I can remember wanting to "tag along and learn" and it's likely the same for other beekeepers. Even though these people are very earnest and truly believe they are helping me, almost invariably I lose more than I gain. Unlike a paid employee they can be rather pedantic about start and finish times, I've actually been part way through a days work and the guy says he has to go home now, an hours drive away. Considering how much production he added I would have been better on my own. That kind of thing. Another common one is the guy thinks he is working pretty hard and although he said he would work for nothing, starts feeling like he should really be getting paid and starts dropping hints. But the reality is I'm doing 10 hives to his one, plus getting called over to his hive every second time to sort some problem, that he caused. It would be faster on my own, and less damage to my hives.
> 
> ...


No, sir. I think maybe conveying my thoughts about the idea is a little off-kilter. What I was trying to essentially ask was, if you had ever been approached by someone asking if you as a commercial operator needed some extra hives to fulfill a contract or could utilize some extra hives for some more honey production, etc. By having this extra resource, you get a cut of the profit from that hive. Essentially, I'm really just seeing if a commercial operator might want to act as a broker, I guess. Make sense? I as the owner of the hives would be responsible for making sure the hives are healthy, ready to be transported, certified, and treated. The commercial operator would be responsible for transporting them, placing, and general care while in their possession.

The idea of being able to tag along for the ride, would no doubt be an experience I would take advantage of, but originally this is not my intent with my original post.



jim lyon said:


> I wouldn't do it pretty much for all the reasons that OT gives. I actually had an arrangement similar to this once in which I got no labor but got all the honey in exchange for returning him his bees late each summer with new queens so he could run them for almond pollination. He had a good day job and simply wanted someone who he knew would take care of them from March through August. We did this for three years and parted amicably. We got some nice honey crops off of them and he was pleased with the quality of the hives he got back but I ultimately decided I could just as easily expand my own operation and not have to worry about the health of someone else's bees.


Your story lines up more along the lines of what I was intending. Although, treatments and health of hives would be my responsibility. Even if that meant I paid the owner/operators for the labor and supplies. I would only expect the same treatment that you would give your own hives...



Tenbears said:


> I run a business in a skilled profession, Weekly I have people ask me to teach them the trade. they are willing to work for nothing to learn. And just as old timer said it reduces my productivity significantly to take on an apprentice. The instructional factor take my time away from what I can produce, and the mistakes cost me materials and my time to correct. a struggle that goes on for months. Just as they begin to grasp the skill and ability to do a somewhat proper job the begin to think they are gods gift to the craft and are making me a ton of money. I have had them show me *Their* calculations on paper. before you know it they have a competing business with a sign saying Former Tenbears Apprentice so as to take proper advantage of my reputation. All the while telling everyone who walks through the door what a hack I am. So just why would anyone want to share the secrets of their profession with a free helper! Today I will teach you for $250.00 per day and a contract with a signed no competition clause.


Their are many on the job training occupations. It seems that in the beekeeping world, its a delicate chemistry that needs to be balanced. Otherwise, I would say the unfortunate stories come along, such as this one. I guess you gotta really like the guy, right? LOL!



Honey-4-All said:


> The goal of hitting 500 in ten years is quite modest and more than doable in my experience and observation.
> 
> If thats your goal start with 25 the first year and add 35% each year.
> 
> More than doable....


As all goals, they are either met, or not met. I only figured such a timeframe, because in life, you never know what will happen, especially financially. I think my largest limiting factor is going to be obtaining productive outyards to place 500 hives.

Fortunately, I have it in the works where I should have 4 outyards already spoken for. Ranging between 10-160 acres. I currently have 12 hives and they started as nucs this year as last years died. My strategy is to create 54 hives from them and then buy 12 more next spring. Hopefully, they will come out of winter alive and well and I can reach my goal next spring to have 64 hives before the flow. Hopefully, I can get an avg. 50lb yield from each hive and do some good with the money and reinvest. But like we should all heed, this is all in a perfect world, and numbers on paper just don't cut it all the time. But this is a goal, and something to strive for.



Vance G said:


> I started with 12 singles which turned out to be honest three frame nucs in bad equipment with some AFB. They were promised in early May and Igot them mid June and unbelievably i got a sixty pound average. Great pasture. I added 25 packages in the spring and wintered a few of the 12. I sold my crops at farmers market and put every penney back in and every dollar i could otherwise earn or steal from the house budget. After five years, I had 300 paid for hives and a part time job for a commercial guy who let my work off my extracting. I had partially learned the business and had done it all with an old galvanized 20 frame root extractor and a sixties one ton cornbinder with a 8X12 flatbed I welded up out of five cent a pound scrap channel iron all less tha twenty inches long, the drop from an implement mfg. Fantastic pasture and big crops when the ND annual avg was 148 pounds.
> 
> Bottom line is no overhead, debt, sleep or recreation, just work. After two years at 300, I had the money in the bank for a bigger truck and a trip south to texas to winter and divide. Did I mention no recreation? The unrecreated wife being sick of my schedule and the immenent leaving of my day job, took that saved money and my sons to California where she ruined them.
> 
> That was the end of my empire and a cautionary tale. Make sure your spouse is in for the struggle.


Wow, now that is quite the story to be told! That's impressive growth for 2 years. Fortunately, as I sit now, the wife shares the same passion for it as I do. Now, whether or not she sticks to her guns down the line at 500 or more hives, time will tell. Lets hope I don't become a repeat of your story. Better to have kept bees than not kept at all! LOL!



Honey-4-All said:


> This has got to be the best advice for all the wanna bee big timers who either have a family or wish for one.
> 
> Forget talk about free equipment or bank loans at 1%. Having a spouse on board with the plans and pain which will be encountered is far more important than any other item a guy ( or gal) could place on ones priority list.
> 
> ...


I surely hope that my wife does not make her comments in vain. Its an all or nothing for me. I see the potential, and I have the drive and desire. I'll let the fire try me.

For as young as I'am compared to the majority who do beekeeping, I can already say, I know what it means to build something from the ground up. Most times, it was without anyones help. But a good support system that came from within has always caused me to push and move ahead. Maybe I will never make it to big timer level pushing around hundreds of hives, but I know someday, by making it a priority to live, eat and sleep bees, I will make it my main income, somehow.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

hex,
find someone to work for when they are in your area working their bees. Some beekeepers like having grunts when it's time to sling boxes.

Then, keep your own bees. If you send your hives to pollination with someone else's and yours aren't treated for pests and diseases the same way the rest of the load is things are going to even out. And either you are going to infect or infest the other guy or him you.

And, just FYI, you don't need to quote someone's whole Post, just the pertinent sentence(s). You have brought up a good discussion. Keep going forward. That's the only way to reach your goal(s).


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

hex0rz said:


> No, sir. I think maybe conveying my thoughts about the idea is a little off-kilter. What I was trying to essentially ask was, if you had ever been approached by someone asking if you as a commercial operator needed some extra hives to fulfill a contract or could utilize some extra hives for some more honey production, etc. By having this extra resource, you get a cut of the profit from that hive. Essentially, I'm really just seeing if a commercial operator might want to act as a broker, I guess. Make sense? I as the owner of the hives would be responsible for making sure the hives are healthy, ready to be transported, certified, and treated. The commercial operator would be responsible for transporting them, placing, and general care while in their possession.


Oh sorry I misunderstood your original post. So to more accurately answer your question, yes, I have been approached by people asking me to use their hives under some kind of profit sharing arrangement. I did it once, and it turned into very much of a nightmare, mainly because the other guys hives were in a much worse state of repair than mine. The particular situation was he went overseas for a couple years, the deal was I manage the hives and keep all they produce, just return them to him in good condition when he gets back. Sounded like a winner to me, but the reality was some of his gear was so rotten I was forced to replace a lot of stuff and I mean a lot. then when he got back my nice stuff made his remaining stuff look pretty bad, he had brain fade while he was away and said "hey those hives didn't look that bad when I left". The reality was they were 50% or more replaced with brand new gear, but he was so convinced I was trying to stiff him and it got so ugly, in the end I just gave him a bunch of my hives. 

The experience taught me there are a lot of things can go wrong in these scenarios and although I've been approached with similar deals since then, I would never do it again. I've also noticed most of the people approaching me are really wanting to get more out than they put in. either not doing their share of the work, or whatever. the deal on offer is always presented attractively, but the nuts and bolts are that I do a lot of work, take a lot of risk, and the other guy gets money, that's how it usually seems to end up.

Thing for you to consider is the beekeeper you offer this deal to is focussing on his outfit and his hives, and building them up, increasing his business. that's what his focus, and long hours of work are. to have someone elses hives on the truck is not only a distraction, but a lot harder to manage than you may imagine. it requires that 2 separate inventories of equipment are kept. if a hive needs supering he can't just stick a super on it. he has to have 2 separate stacks of supers on his truck. One for his hives, and one for yours.

If you can find someone to do this, good. But my belief is it's more likely your path to success will be building up your hives and running them yourself, and if wanting to gain experience, getting it by doing paid employment with a beekeeper. If you want to truck them to pollination you would be better to handle it yourself cos most beekeepers are pretty stressed at this time. However you may find someone who will help you, never know.

I don't think being a honey super loading grunt will teach you much though. Broodnest work is what you need in terms of understanding beehives, and the management of lots of them. But you need experience throughout the whole season.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"I don't think being a honey super loading grunt will teach you much though." It will get your foot in the door and prove your worth. Giving you face time and lunch time to pick the brains of the person you are working for.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

True enough, it would also teach work, and organisation, so he's part way there.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If he doesn't already know work, it's a little late. Though I suspect that isn't the case.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Thanks for the feedback fellas. This has helped me keep myself from looking like an idiot in front of someone, lol.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hmm, I don't think you would look like an idiot or that the other guy would perceive you as an idiot.

If you could get such a deal with someone it would certainly work from your point of view, so there's no harm asking around if someone would do it with you.

But your question was what would someone think of it, I told you how I would see it from my perspective which is it could be more drama than I need, on the basis that owning the hives I work myself keeps things a whole lot simpler. IE, if splits have to be made what to do with them etc, if someone else owns some of the gear things get complex, why would I want to deal with it, and why am I spending time building someone else's business not mine. However I did once do such a deal, therefore such deals happen, it is possible someone else might, there is no harm in asking around.

But if that doesn't happen, myself and others made other suggestions which in my opinion, are more likely to get you into commercial beekeeping. Vances experience is something you should look at closely, and even pick his brains on it privately. A guy who can expand and build up like he did obviously has the right formula, and without the thieving ex, would likely have become a commercial beekeeper if he so chose. As he still may if he is not too drained to do it. The people who are not going to succeed are those who are trying but just cannot get past x number of hives, maybe 20, or whatever, just because they are not really running their bees successfully. Those people, if they really want to be a commercial beekeeper, need to work for someone to find out how it is done.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Duly noted. There are a few around here who I can think of trying the idea on, but not yet ready to approach them. I currently have 12 hives in one yard and find that it was a little nerve racking at first, but now I can tell that I can handle more. Trying for 4 yards next year and 64 hives.


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