# Foundationless Deeps - wire or no?



## BeePuncher (May 25, 2007)

Greetings one and all. I would like to start experimenting with some foundationless frames for brood and was wondering if you folks out there have some advice concerning wires: namely would the brood comb sag or disfigure in cell shape without a couple of horizontal wires? I have read here for awhile, and I know that Michael Bush says no but uses mediums for brood. Any experience or advice to share? Looking forward to start this new endeavour..

Ivan


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## bamindy (Apr 14, 2009)

I was going to start going foundationless in deeps as well. Anyone have any advice on what to use for starters (wax strip, popcicle stick, etc...)? I am getting some nucs this wknd and may just try some of each type to see which one seems to work the best.


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## Coon (Dec 4, 2008)

I am planning on trying this too.
I am completely unexperienced.. but i believe that the hive has the be perfectly level if you intend to use foundationless + wires..


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## Natalie (Jan 14, 2009)

I use on foundationless frames in my hives.
They are either topbar hives or all mediums in langs.
I keep my hives they are level and do not lean forward or backward.
I do not wire any of my frames and my guides are built into the bar, a beveled topbar all the way across.
People have had success with popsicle sticks, tongue depressors, paint stirrers and triangle wedges.
As long at the bees have some type of guide you should be fine.


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## z to a (May 24, 2009)

*NO Wire*

I have only been into bees 2 years now I have done saeveral foundationless deeps with great success all i did was insert empty frames when i did a split or caught a swarm both did well


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

I have several foundationless deep frames in my hives. The combs will follow gravity, so you need to make sure the hives are level side to side. If the side to side isn't level, the bottom of the comb will be offset to the bottom frame bar. Front to back tilt on the hive is ok - it's the side to side tilt you have to watch.

I don't use wire. If you wire your frames, the bees will integrate the wires into the comb. If the hive leans side to side and the comb hangs offset, the bees will integrate the wire into the side of the comb, instead of integrating the wire into the center of the comb.


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## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

I have never used a full foundation sheet (four years in July) but cut down the sheets into starter strips about five cells wide and wax them into the top bar groove of the frame. I had a problem with one hive that was angled a little to the side (I missed it) and they followed gravity. Same hive, I had a real wavy starter strip that they followed. After I cleaned these up and repositioned the hive they did good. They drew it out well after that. I don't use wire and I use deeps for brood and deeps, mediums and shallows for supers.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

BeePuncher, if you are experimenting try frames with wire and some without and compare results.

Also put in a frame or two with foundation and see how they compare with the foundationless frames. Have fun!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't do deeps much, but I have done some foundationless deeps. I have never used wire. I have put a center support on my Dadant deeps (11 1/4" frames). Charles Martin Simon told me he used foundationless deeps all the time and never wired them and extracted them all the time as well.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#dowire


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

I have only deeps now. I extract them without problems, I just do it slower at the beginning of spinning, and add two rubber strips (wrap it around the frame) to the frame just in case.
I think wired foundation frames are stronger and easier for a beginner but you can do foundationless with a little bit of care.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

I switched about 40 hives this year, and don't have wires. The bees seem to be iffy about attaching to the bottom bar, some do, some don't I have been scratching the bottoms open trying to get them to repair that spot and attach it. Not sure yet one way or the other if that works or help...

That said wires would be nice but with 1000 frames or better, I am not going to mess with them.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Jay Smith used to recommend this, put the bottom bar on with nails and leave it down 3/8" of an inch (in other words put a 3/8" piece of something in the notch to suspend the bar even with the bottom bars and not in the notch). Then after the comb is drawn to within 3/8" of the bottom you push the bottom bar the rest of the way in.


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## Logan (May 29, 2009)

Backyardhive.com sells foundationless frames, but only for mediums. They have the beveled top bar that is very nice. Does anyone know where to go to buy the foundationless frames with beveled top bar for deeps? If not, does anyone know where to go to find a really good howto on making them yourself?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Just use a regular frame. Turn the wedge so that it protrudes down and tack it in. There is no need for special frames.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Skip that, just by wedge style and take out the wedge.... that edge down is no different than the edge left with no wedge... in fact the always start on the center of the bar, putting the wedge back puts them a bit off center.


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## Logan (May 29, 2009)

By wedge style, you mean the ones that have a piece of wood that holds in plastic foundation?


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## BeePuncher (May 25, 2007)

AR Beekeeper said:


> BeePuncher, if you are experimenting try frames with wire and some without and compare results.
> 
> Also put in a frame or two with foundation and see how they compare with the foundationless frames. Have fun!


Thanks! That is what I am going to do. I am not worried about extracting honey, my extractor is a four frame one with the cages and can handle deep frames. My main worry would be misshapen/sagging brood comb from the heat of the hive, although I am suspecting they do quite a job using propolis to reinforce the structure. A side by side comparison under equal conditions will be fun for sure!


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## BeePuncher (May 25, 2007)

Michael Bush said:


> I don't do deeps much, but I have done some foundationless deeps. I have never used wire. I have put a center support on my Dadant deeps (11 1/4" frames). Charles Martin Simon told me he used foundationless deeps all the time and never wired them and extracted them all the time as well.
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#dowire


By a centre support do you mean a rod or even wood wedge? Is the idea that without something like that on a deep frame the brood comb could sag or disfigure in the warmth of the hive? 

I am not worried about frames for honey, they would extract very well in my extractor with the cages, just the brood area as I would like to start replacing my old comb with new stuff that the bees made themselves - clean clean clean - and as an added bonus spare the expense of foundation, hassle of wiring and most importantly not deal with contaminated wax from who knows where. 

Ivan


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

http://charlesmartinsimon.com/pictures.htm
http://charlesmartinsimon.com/frameinstructions.htm
http://charlesmartinsimon.com/endorsements.htm


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

I like to use the grooved top bars and use a wooden spline in the groove to get them started in the center. Works really well for me. I rip my own wooden splines, but some folks use tongue depressors or popsicle sticks. For me, it has worked better than either the V shaped top bars or the ones with the wedge turned vertical. The main concern is to be sure your hive is level left to right if you put on a whole box of undrawn frames. When using them in supers, they work best when "checkerboarded" between fully drawn and sealed frames of honey. If the adjacent super frames are drawn but not sealed, the bees will often just draw the adjacent frames out wider into the empty space of the foundationless frame.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If not, does anyone know where to go to find a really good howto on making them yourself? 

I run them through a table saw (with or without a groove) before I assemble them. The top bar run through at 45 degrees on each side works well.

But I think the wedge broken out and glued and nailed back in is the simplest.

>By a centre support do you mean a rod or even wood wedge?

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/DadantDeep1.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm

> Is the idea that without something like that on a deep frame the brood comb could sag or disfigure in the warmth of the hive?

Yes and when it's new and not attached to the sides yet it can get quite heavy while the wax is quite soft.


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## KDM (Jul 12, 2007)

Michael has a point on the soft wax filled with honey. Three years ago i did not wire the frames on a deep. I needed to move them to a different area. the field was rough and the bumps shook the warm wax and honey lose from the frames. What a mess.


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