# Black Larvae?



## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

I checked some of my reference books and have diagnosed it as EFB. It said I should feed (which I did start when I left the hive) which would stimulate brood production. This would cause a decrease in the ratio of nurse bees to brood that are overfed to satisfy the demanding appetite of the infected. The infected would get less attention and feed from the nurse bees and the bacteria would not be able to thrive and die. Same could be acheived by simply adding some open brood as a more immediate remedy. I didn't find if I should remove these dead larvae or if it would be safe for the bees to remove them theirselves.?

Thanks, John


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

If the lavae are dried up and look like pellets it could just be chalk brood.
are the lave dried up or are they soft?


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

If they are black I don't think they would be chalk brood, when I have had that the brood is white and hard as a rock,,


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Chalk brood actually is both black and white:
http://bushfarms.com/images/Chalkbrood.jpg
http://bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#chalkbrood

The black ones are producing spores. The white ones are not.


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

Some are small and shriveled, others are larger and black. The larger ones are still very moist and fill the whole cell. They look just like a normal well fed larvae except they are black, some are gray. The smaller shriveled ones don't fill the cells and look like they haven't been fed.

It's definately European Foul Brood caused by a bacteria the bees pick up and bring back to feed to some larvae. The bacteria grows in the gut and competes with the larvae for food and the nurse bees compensate by overfeeding the larvae which keeps both the larvae and the bacteria alive. The way to fight it naturally is to decrease the amount of nurse bees and increase the amount of brood. This way the nurse bees begin selective feeding of the healthiest larvae and the infected larvae eventually are overtaken by the bacteria. At this point the the nurse bees no longer feed and the bacteria dies. This bacteria is not mobile, spreading, or spore forming like some of the other diseases so it stays fairly well in check and the bees eventually sort it out. I couldn't find any information if I should remove the infected or let the bees do it so I'm just going to let the bees do what bees do and see how they handle it. It will also depend on how hygenic the queen is, so I'll just have to wait and see. I think the smaller shriveled larvae haven't been fed for a reason and perhaps it's because the bees are already taking care of things the way they are suppose to.

Thanks, John


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Monday, June 06, 2011
Here's a good URL for you on EFB & AFB with field diagnostic tests and images.


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

Url ????


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

EFB can be a very pesky brood disease to get rid of. In the very old days, it was and was considered worse than AFB, A little terrimyicin with powdered sugar applied every seven days for three weeks will control and get rid of it. Unlike AFB, EFB is non spore forming and the antibiotics will get rid of it. In severe cases, treatment should be the same as AFB-fire..... You will see EFB more often in cool, damp, type springs, when the bees are struggling to build up. So, a little feed along with the antibiotic therapy will clean it up nicely. If you start to smell a rotten fish smell when you open the colony ,then it is too late to do anything but burn it. TED


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

I have also read that a hygenic queen will help solve the problem. Any truth to it? Could I swap queens with a hive that didn't show symtoms? I'd really hate to lose this queen as she is a laying machine, but thats not worth the disease. 

I'm not going to treat with antibiotics. I haven't had them in years and neither will my bees. Are there any other options? What about IPM measures such as moving them to full sun? Others? Can I pull the infected brood combs? What would you guys do, WITHOUT feeding antibiotics?

Thanks, John


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

John, feed them and stimulate them by doing so. That might help. If the infection is too far along, nothing will do without the use of antibiotics. Look, you can kill this stuff and get rid of it. Then you can put the colony off to itself and watch it. After awhile, you can pretty well be sure that you can go back on a treatment free regime. Terrimycin when properly use in powdered sugar leaves NO residue. The only other option if you will not break glass in emergency and feed antibiotics-is to burn the infected colony. **** shame to burn an EFB colony when 2.00 dollars worth of antibiotic would have saved them and put them back on the straight and narrow. TED


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

HONEYDEW said:


> Url ????


URL (Uniform Resource Locator), also called a web address. One familiar URL would be --> http://www.beesource.com

The URL being shared in that post, was --> http://bees4u.com/


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

Thanks guys. I'll give it some thought and talk to some locals as well. I already started feeding the day I first noticed this. It was only on one frame but on both sides. I don't no how far along that IS, but I'll continue to monitor them to see if it gets better or worse. In the mean time, I'll check that hive last and won't exchange frames with any other hives.

Thanks, John


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

Joseph Clemens said:


> URL (Uniform Resource Locator), also called a web address. One familiar URL would be --> http://www.beesource.com
> 
> The URL being shared in that post, was --> http://bees4u.com/


 post #7 says here's a good URL for you about AFB and EFB but the bees 4 u site has nothing that I saw about AFB or EFB, Tha is why I asked URL??? as in what URL....


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

I think you could remove the frames. If it is EFB, the bees will take care of removing when the time is right, but you can help them by removing and replacing the infected frames.


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

So I quickly checked this hive today. Before, there was only one frame infected. Now ALL the frames have brood showing symptoms...in just one week. I did the ropey test with a toothpick to several capped and uncapped cells on each frame. No ropey brood was detected. Capped brood was still a very light tan. I gave them 2 gal. of 1:1 sugar syrup with Honey Bee Healthy last weekend and they barely touched it. I found the queen. She looked great and is still an egg laying machine. There isn't an empty cell without an egg anywhere. I've combed the internet for pictures of each disease and everything I have seen resembles EFB. Here are some pics I took today...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/showmejohnspics/5825771135/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/showmejohnspics/5826326000/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/showmejohnspics/5825765807/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/showmejohnspics/5825759987/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/showmejohnspics/5826313866/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/showmejohnspics/5826310864/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/showmejohnspics/5826306948/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/showmejohnspics/5825746383/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/showmejohnspics/5826331122/

So now what? I'm a little frustrated at this point. I was hoping for it to get better by this weekend, not worse. I'm afraid I'm going to have to treat this hive. I'll do what TED suggests with the antibiotics yuck!!!!....and powdersugar dusting. I'll do some reading on this process and keep in touch if I have any questions.

Thanks, John


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## ctgolfer (May 4, 2011)

I love these guys that ask these questions and when they get solid advice they check with a local bee keeper, why ask here if not going to take the advice? If this hive was treated a week ago the problem would be over and a whole bunch of brood would be saved. Now you have threatened all your colinies and any within 3 miles of you. This "I aint gonna treat my hives" stuff has gone way too far. If folks are not going to treat their hives then they should be forced to burn them ON SITE as soon as a problem is found. It's just not fair to the rest of us. I feel for you John but you did the wrong thing and threatened many, many hives, maybe thousends if those folks around you have your attitude twords treating.
Good luck, glade we are 1200 miles apart.


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

ctgolfer,

There is no reason to use expleteves and jump on a newbee when you yourself have read many books and watched videos on diseases of the hive and honey bees. You just did that before you needed the information. One question: Do you not check the accrecy of the information you get from someone before you dive off and follow the instructions? At least JohnV is trying and learning at the same time.


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## ctgolfer (May 4, 2011)

Peaches said:


> ctgolfer,
> 
> There is no reason to use expleteves and jump on a newbee when you yourself have read many books and watched videos on diseases of the hive and honey bees. You just did that before you needed the information. One question: Do you not check the accrecy of the information you get from someone before you dive off and follow the instructions? At least JohnV is trying and learning at the same time.


I do check with 2 books, first one is "Bee Keeping for Dummies" and the second one is "The Beekeepers Handbook" 4th edition by Al Avitabile (who I had lunch with yesterday). Then I check with these guys and make a decission, I understand that by taking the "wait and see" attitude and maybe all the flowers will bloom and the word will be rosey again I am putting all hives around me in jepordy and passing my problems on to other beeks. I did not mean to jump on John but he needed a kick in the butt to do the right thing, burn or treat, before he wipes out a whole lot of hives.


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

Being a new beek, I'm a little hesitant about what I'm doing. I feel that before I make any decisions, I must find a way to re-assure myself that it's the right one. I have read and been told by many in my own area, as well as on other forums that it is EFB and it will clear up on it's own if left for the bees to deal with. Unfortunetly, that wasn't the case. I am most certainly not trying to insult anyones knowledge, experience, or credibility. Instead, like most other beeks, I'm trying to create my own. I agree, that treatment free has gone too far, BUT I understand why. I've learned an important lesson with this hive and I'm sure I will have many more lessons to PERSONALLY experience, in order to grow more into this endeavor. 

With THAT being said, I have already located a local supplier of Terramyacin that I will pick up and apply tomorrow in the form of a powder sugar dusting according to package directions., and of course, with no honey supers on. 

I do wonder... where did MY bees get it from?

Later, John


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## MCI (Mar 11, 2011)

I have found the videos on this page to be very informative. http://entnemdept.ifas.ufl.edu/honeybee/extension/index.shtml They also say that often the colony can push through an EFB outbreak.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I have also read that a hygenic queen will help solve the problem. Any truth to it? Could I swap queens with a hive that didn't show symtoms? I'd really hate to lose this queen as she is a laying machine, but thats not worth the disease. 

The typical solution is to create a break in the brood cycle. Remove the queen let all the brood emerge. If they haven't raised a queen to replace her, put her back or put in another queen.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#efb
http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#broodbreak


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

I thought I'd give an update and ask a few more questions.

As much as I hate to say it, I treated some hives yesterday. Remember, I'm a new beek and am only doing what I'm influenced to do by others as well as my own "gut". I DON'T like the idea of treating but at this point, that's all I felt comfortable doing. Of course, I'm not out of the woods yet.

The first thing I did was sterilize my hive tool the best I could with bleach. I also took the propane torch to it as well. Currently, I have six hives all in the same yard and they all share the same water source (a fountain). I added a few cap fulls of bleach to it hopefully to prevent any spread through it.

I checked my strongest hive for symptoms first. I saw none. This hive had a half full super on it so I did not treat it, BUT will continue to monitor closely. 

I checked my next two strongest hives next. These hives had no symptoms but I did treat them as a preventive measure since they are in the same yard with others. No supers are on these hives or will be this year.

Those first 3 inspected hives were my original hives coming out of winter, one of them was a split I made from two early in the year. The next 3 hives I checked were swarms hived this Spring.

All three hives made from swarms showed symptoms and were treated. But heres the interesting part. The original hive I posted about was the first swarm hived and served as the egg donor hive for the other two. I assume this is how the disease was spread to these other two hived swarms. Each swarm was about a week apart and each hive showed progressively less severe symptoms than the other.

When inspecting each hive, I examined the eggs, uncapped larvae, and capped brood from several different frames in each hive body. I examined the capped brood by puncturing with a stem of a clover and twisting inside the cell. No ropping was experienced in ANY hives. This, as well as other research, has led me to believe that it is EFB. I will send samples to be tested to make sure. If for any reason the samples come back negative for EFB or positive for AFB I will burn the hives. I am not willing to continue a treatment regimine if it is AFB, but will destroy them instead.

In my treatment, I used Tetra-Bee Mix. I mixed 2 tablespoons Tetra-Bee with 2 tablespoons powdered sugar. I sprinkled half the mixture on the top bars of each brood box in the doubles, and all the mixture on the top bars in the singles. According to the directions, that is the dosage for a COLONY. I will do again in 4-5 days.

Any other advice?

I know I feel just aweful about treating but am scared that all the hard work and money I've invested in the last two years, and yet to see any honey, would all be gone. That might be more than I can bare right now and if that was to happen, I don't know if I would continue beekeeping. That's a scary thought for me.

Thanks, John

BTW, I have other questions concerning removing the queens but am out of time and will repost later. Thanks, again!


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

I checked the hives again today to follow up with the second application of Tetra-Bee. Symptoms are already looking better in the hives that showed them, and still no symtoms in the hives didn't. The hives with the symtoms are looking better in that there are less infected larvae showing, the brood pattern is looking a little less spotty, and there is more new larvae that is the brilliant white it should be. I have ordered the two foul brood tests from Dadant just to help verify what I suspect I already know. But I definately want to know for sure. Especially, because I am ready to add the second brood chamber to two of these hives and don't want to waste the equipment if it is AFB. I keep you guys posted as things changed.

Later, John


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

John; you used a very methodical approach and seem to have gotten the job done. Nobody likes treating bees for anything and all of us wish there better solutions out there. Good job.


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

Thanks. The hardest part has been making up my own mind. EVERYONE has different methods and views. EVERYONE has given me differences in opinions and facts. EVERYONE has given me advice that clashes with other's advice. And EVERYONE I consider advice from has a long history of keeping bees. So the hard part is finding the closure that I made the right decision. But no matter what I did or was to do, I feel I would let someone down as a mentor and they might feel a sense of rejection or failure. And by no means was this my intention. I just have to decide for myself from my options. As a new beek, I wasn't quite prepared for this. I know what I want and that's to be treatment free. This was definately a learning experience. I feel it was the right decision this time, but hopefully not ever again. I don't take antibiotics and neither should my bees.

Thanks, John


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

John,

There is no right way or wrong way to work bees. Listen to me, to your various mentors, to others on this forum and then take those parts of information that you are comfortable with and make your own decisions and your own system. You did listen to everyone then made your decision. Good for you and you even followed through. Not all decisions are easy, but sometimes they are necessary. 

This has been and is a learning time for you. Don't despair. It will get better and you will help your girls grow and prosper. Hang in there and keep asking questions. Remember, ask 10 beekeepers and you will get 11 answers. Just have fun.:applause:


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

What you have is NOT AFB. It is classical EFB. You will be fine with the TM treatment. It is not the end of the world that you did the right thing and saved your bees. Later on, once all the symptoms have cleared you can try and go back to treatment free. But remember that most likely that you are in an area that has high levels of EFB, so if it shows back up you will have to stay on preventative maintenence and treat twice a year. Once in the early spring and once in the fall. Bees travel and pick up stuff. So asking how did my bees get it? Just by beeing bees. Good Luck and if you have any more questions just ask. TED


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

John V said:


> I used Tetra-Bee Mix. I mixed 2 tablespoons Tetra-Bee with 2 tablespoons powdered sugar. Any other advice?


 I don't think you are supposed to mix tetra-bee with powdered sugar as it is already pre mixed with sugar so you more than likely watered down the good stuff in the mix ....maybe I am wrong,,, It has happened once before...


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## Peaches (Jun 8, 2011)

I have never used Tetra-Bee, but I would agree with Honeydew. If the Tetra-Bee is premixed and the label says to use say 2 tbl spoons per hive and you mix powdered sugar with it and then feed 2 tbl spoons, then you have cut the mixture down by at least 1/2. Read the label. Here in Florida, "The label is the law."


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## johnblagg (May 15, 2011)

If treatment free was going to equal bee free I would treat ......do what you have to and like Peaches said go as chemical free as you can again later,but never just sit and watch them die


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

I did a lot of research on TM and from what I read, there are many different ways to apply it based on the potency. The research I found had different ratios to mix it with powdered sugar based on the grams per pound. The Tetra Bee product was labled at 5 grams per pound which led me to the conclusion it would be mixed on a 1:1 with powdered sugar. This is what I based my first application on, as well as talking to some local's. But since my first application, I realized that, in fact, that does not follow the label. 

I messed up. 

On my second application, I did follow the label to it's entirety as I will on my third. I'm still new and learning, and trying my best. I care about my bees and want the best for them. Thanks for your support.

Thanks, John


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

You have done well. TED


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

Just another follow up. I checked the hives yesterday to do the final follow up treatment. I was very pleased to see capped brood once again as well as a more solid brood pattern. 95% of the uncapped larvae was back to the brilliant white it should be. I had a mentor from our area come to help as he heard the problem and was very concerned. Together we checked all my hives. We also used the two tests from Dadant to check for both strands of foulbrood. The tests showed positive for EFB and negative for AFB. My mentor complimented me on everything I was doing and it really made feel like I have some idea about what I'm doing. I feel much more relieved now that things are clearing up and the normal activities are back on track. Thanks, for all your support and suggestions.

Thanks, John


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

John, you have just experienced the practical side of the beekeeping learning curve (as opposed to the academic side). As a new beekeeper, you have not seen everything, and so sometimes (since alas the bees cannot tell us what is going on) you know you are seeing "something" but you don't know what. And there are often several options out there once you do know what is going on...you can only do your best, which you seem to have done.

One possible source of EFB can be bees drifting in from hives rented out for pollination. Those bees are often stressed by the pollination circuit lifestyle and perhaps don't get a lot of inspection time.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

John V said:


> The tests showed positive for EFB and negative for AFB.


The use of antibiotics is not allowed in Europe. In fact, in case of EFB it is found to be useless.

It is absolutely no point of giving drugs against efb. Efb is caused by (early) summer circumstances, when there is lots of brood and too few nurse bees to take care of them, plus shortage of nectar and bad weather. Hives having efb should be kept very tight, no supering. EFB disappears when the circumstances get better. You get no solution with the drugs, it comes again, no matter how much TM(=terramycin?) is used.

There is some discussion about possible EFB going on here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?300299-Decaying-Brood-vs-EFB


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Juhani Lunden said:


> The use of antibiotics is not allowed in Europe. In fact, in case of EFB it is found to be useless.
> 
> It is absolutely no point of giving drugs against efb. Efb is caused by (early) summer circumstances, when there is lots of brood and too few nurse bees to take care of them, plus shortage of nectar and bad weather. Hives having efb should be kept very tight, no supering. EFB disappears when the circumstances get better. You get no solution with the drugs, it comes again, no matter how much TM(=terramycin?) is used.
> 
> There is some discussion about possible EFB going on here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?300299-Decaying-Brood-vs-EFB


If you are not allowed to use antibiotics how would you know if it works or not? Oxytet works. You are misinformed.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Here this shows the efficacy of European Laws. In Switzerland they are supposed to burn hives that show clinical symptoms. No Oxytet. So what would be my motivation as a beekeeper to want to burn hives? Look at the curve on the link. Apparently it is still climbing. A little oxytet would likely combat this steep rise very quickly. 

http://www.apimondia.com/congresses...od in Switzerland - CHARRIERE Jean-Daniel.pdf


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

JodieToadie said:


> If you are not allowed to use antibiotics how would you know if it works or not? Oxytet works. You are misinformed.


I´m not misinformed, this the practise and fact in Finland, I cannot tell anything about the situation in your country. 

There has been massive use of all possible antibiotics in Finland, in fact I used Sulfa, Terramysin and Fumidil myself as a beginner 1977. Situation got no better. 

Nowdays it is possible to get a license to treat for AFB. That is a different story. They burn hives with AFB, not EFB.


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