# VSH Breeding?



## deknow

I've noticed the number of threads with VSH in the title, so I thought I would ask this question, as I've been wondering about this for a while.

I've read the postings over on the VSH Breeders website/forum, and I can't tell if (outside the formal USDA program) anyone is actually testing for VSH.

We know that HYG and VSH will not persist in the population unless they are constantly selected for generation after generation.

...so how are breeders (that are not just propagating USDA stock) qualifying their bees as VSH? How are they able to provide VSH behavior without testing? How many generations have these stocks gone since they have been properly evaluated for VSH?

There is certainly less of a consensus about what constitutes a valid VSH test than there is for HYG...but if someone is going to claim that their bees are HYG or VSH, it seems there should be something observable that is being evaluated?

Any thoughts?

deknow


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## JRG13

I recall some posts of people using the nitrogen test, but I always wonder how that translates into finding cells with mites as opposed to just dead larvae/pupae. My intuition is people use a qualitative assessment, they see the bees uncapping and removing cells, therefore must be hygenic/vsh?? I think most of the queens I've seen advertised as VSH are all daughter queens of a breeder but saying they're VSH and being such is two different things which is what you're getting at.


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## squarepeg

great question dean. i've been wondering the same thing. even with testing, how can when be sure that a daughter queen and her colony are going to express a trait until they are proven themselves?

for vsh, it seems like the best measure would be a summer mite count, at least that's what i am going to use for selection and deselection.


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## JRG13

Probably a sensible approach square, but I don't think mite counts translate directly to VsH/hygenics. If you have light pressure for whatever reason you may assume it's your bees. Quantifying seems difficult to me as we cannot observe exactly what's going on, we just know cells are being uncapped etc... but can't really quantify how many mites were in there etc... What's the detection limit? 1 mite, 2 mites, 10 mites... If your bees only uncap 5 mites and greater... that's not very good. I guess a queen rearer needs to chime in and enlighten us. Do they monitor daughter queens for hygenics? Or just assume and sell them.


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## JSL

Deknow,

I think you hit the nail on the head. Evaluating even a single colony for the expression of a VSH takes a little time. Evaluating a breeding population is extensive. VSH is not really a stock per se, but a trait to be incorporated into stock, at least that is how John Harbo and Jeff Harris initially approached it. To incorporate VSH into a production stock successfully is a challenge for several reasons. VSH is not a simple characteristic and therefore not very stable in a population. From what I understand, there is also no general consensus as to what percentage of the workers should express VSH to provide an economically viable control level of VSH. 50% has been tossed around, but can be greatly influenced by a large number of environmental conditions.

My assumption is that virtually no one outside of the USDA actually properly screens for VSH expression. I think the USDA provides regular disbursements of semen and perhaps queens to those that are interested in the trait. But, this is like the old days of making a copy of a copy of a copy… How much of the trait is actually retained or exhibited by queens on the market? 

The same concern was expressed with the hygienic stock Marla Spivak worked with and that trait was much easier to evaluate and select for. The problem was beekeepers put the catch phrase “hygienic behavior” in their ads, but the queens they were selling expressed very little actual hygienic behavior.

Joe


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## squarepeg

thanks joe, and good reply. i should have added that the mite count won't be the only consideration for selection/deselection. it's not hard to tell which hives are more robust across the board than their cohorts. the mite count will be more to uncover a latent infestation and factor that into management. i'm not sure what else to do except proceed with the working assumption that a robust colony having a low mite count is my best bet for propagating genetics.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

If you haven't already read it, THIS may help.

Rusty


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## deknow

On thing I keep coming back to....

_If_ VSH behavior helps reduce mite loads (Let's assume yes)

and

_If_ VSH behavior will not persist over a number of generations without actually selecting for it (I believe this is what the literature states quite plainly...this would mean a test for VSH as part of the selection process for each generation)

Then what happens when we try to use VSH stock as a basis of a breeding program, or try to incorporate the trait into a population?

1. At first it seems successful, as the first and second generations benefit from the VSH traits.

2. As the generations unfold, actual VSH becomes less and less pronounced/common.

3. One of the following 3 things will happen:

A. The bees become susceptible to the mites as VSH dissipates
B. The bees that are selected for survival/production/etc have those traits as a byproduct of VSH....that the survivors are assumed to be VSH because they are surviving
C. As VSH dissipates, other mite resistant traits become more pronounced

In cases A and C, a few generations down the line, the VSH traits are not maintained....was it useful to introduce VSH in the first place? What was gained?

Case B seems to be what people think will happen when they buy some VSH stock to integrate into their own (or to start their own program)...but this assumption doesn't seem to be based on anything real.

IMHO, "3 letter queens" are not a productive way to go...even if you do get stock that actually is VSH....and for the purpose of this statement, "JSL" doesn't count as 3 letters 

deknow


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## deknow

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> If you haven't already read it, THIS may help.
> Rusty


Hi Rusty,
When I've read through things on the VSH breeders forum (where one would think selection for VSH trait would be discussed), there is almost nothing about the breeders actually using any of these methods.
I saw one post that claimed they were going to post an easy step by step guide, but I haven't seen it.

There is so much hype about VSH (just look at how many active threads have VSH in the title)...yet I think there are very few (if any) that do any kind of proper evaluation to support the VSH claims....and little incentive to educate beekeepers that want to breed their own bees (not just rear from purchased breeder stock) on how VSH actually works, and help them decide if this is a good road to go down for them.

deknow


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## JSL

Deknow,

This is where I think there is a disconnect. I have looked at and worked with bees that truly expressed measurable levels of VSH behavior. I started with the original lines from Harbo and Harris and tested lines from following years released by the USDA. Each time, yes the VSH lines did express lower Varroa levels, BUT in looking at the broader picture, I had concerns about production and survivability issues. I simply could not get good survivability and production out of lines that expressed high levels of VSH. In my opinion, the expression of VSH comes at a very high energetic cost to the colony, which is probably why it is expressed at such a low level in unselected populations. 

Joe


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## JRG13

Good Read Rusty Hills, thanks for that.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

> There is so much hype about VSH (just look at how many active threads have VSH in the title)...yet I think there are very few (if any) that do any kind of proper evaluation to support the VSH claims....and little incentive to educate beekeepers that want to breed their own bees (not just rear from purchased breeder stock) on how VSH actually works, and help them decide if this is a good road to go down for them.


But if I may play devil's advocate here, how is this any different than all the queens that are hyped as being "survivor bees"? Anybody can call anything whatever they want. There are very few "tests" for any of it. Mostly it boils down to what is happening in a given box--with no guarantee that just because it IS working in this box, it is going to work in somebody else's box. At least with the VSH queens, one CAN go back to USDA and hope to get a reasonable facsimile of what they expect to get. But with Joe Blow's queens, who knows what you are getting, since there are no guarantees that because they work for him, they'll work for you. I don't mean Joe Blow is misrepresenting his bees, only that the bees themselves work or don't work based on where they are as much as how they are bred or handled.

I think the bees are ALL locally successful or not, no matter how they are bred or by whom, based solely on their ability to survive in THIS place as opposed to that one. Every time you buy a queen, you are getting a-pig-in-a-poke. The VSH/Pol-line are no different in that regard.

At lease that is what I am taking away from all this. Remember now, I am small potatoes and productivity does not affect my bottom line. For me they are just an interesting hobby. One that is starting to make me a little crazy, but then I suppose you have to be a little crazy to get so wrapped up in a bunch of bugs in a box!

Bottom line for me is that I can spend my money on a package/nuc/queen that is supposed to be survivor or one that is supposed to be hygienic. I see it as a total gamble either way.

Rusty


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## squarepeg

that's the way i see it too rusty. and that's the main reason i want to try my hand at raising my own queens. i had pretty good luck making splits from my best colonies these past two years. i hope to end up with good hearty feral mutts that will be of use to me and maybe others in my area.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

Yep. That's the direction I am heading as well. I will start with the best I can find and hope to use them to develop some gals who do well right here. LOL I have been driving myself a bit batty over this, but now that I've had some time to cogitate a bit, that is the direction I am heading, too.

And I really like that phrase "good hearty feral mutts"! That sums it up perfectly.



Rusty


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## squarepeg

walker county is pretty rural, as is jackson. do you have a generous supply of wild bees nearby?


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## Rusty Hills Farm

Actually, no. I rarely see ANY bees, which is how I got started on bees again. I have a garden and a small orchard and in the 7 years I've been here, I've only had one season where I saw any bees at all, and then never again after that season 2 years ago. Which seemed sad to me, so next thing I knew there I was reading the old books and hunting online and--oops, now I'm building boxes again!

 

Rusty


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## JRG13

I was going to say the same thing Rusty and Square. Bring in genetics you like, select for colonies that do well. I think most of the success comes in how good people are at selecting 'healthy' and 'strong' colonies and knowing a dog when they see one. I think what we're leading to is what to do after those queens get replaced a couple times and how often should new genetics be brought in or if it's even necessary at all. Just keep raising your own queens from what you have and don't look back.


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## squarepeg

interesting. i'm pretty sure i have some around here. the way i can tell is that i have had a couple of cases of robbing, and the robbing bees were coming and going from the woods and i'm pretty sure there are no kept bees nearby in that direction.

also, i have put wet supers out to get cleaned up, and these wild bees have shown up then. their color and markings a little different than the ones in my yard.

there were beekeepers around me many years ago that managed quite a few hives. i'm guessing that their old swarms are now my feral bees. plus, i have let several swarms fly these past three seasons, in hopes that they might get established in the woods. 

the hope is that if they are making it in the wild on their own, that they might have decent survivor genetics, and their drones will be around come mating season. 

the other thing is that the bees i have purchased were bred from cut outs from the woods on the next ridge over from me. it has been twelve years since that breeder started these, and they have never been treated.


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## camero7

> There is so much hype about VSH (just look at how many active threads have VSH in the title)...yet I think there are very few (if any) that do any kind of proper evaluation to support the VSH claims....and little incentive to educate beekeepers that want to breed their own bees (not just rear from purchased breeder stock) on how VSH actually works, and help them decide if this is a good road to go down for them.


I think grooming behavior might be as important [maybe more important] than VSH. I try to observe that in my hives and I find that the lowest mite counts are coming from those hives that express this. I also try to use 1st generation VSH queens. This year I'm going to try some queens which seem to express strong grooming behavior. They are from survivor queens which have not been treated for a few years.


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## JRG13

Camero, that's a good point. I noticed with hopguard, it really made the bees groomy, and perhaps that has something to do with it's effectiveness as well.


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## AstroBee

Lots of good comments here. I've dabbled with the VSH bee for the past two years, starting with breeder queens from Glenn in 2011 and then more in 2012. I've had 3 pure VSH and 2 Pol-line II queens. I used these queens to make lots of queens, mostly for myself, but with limited local distribution. I do not rigorously test for "VSH traits" in daughters. However, I do assess these queens as one would for any other type of queen. My assessments are pretty simple, and suited to my objectives of: high honey yield, mite resistance, and gentleness. Overall, my luck with the pure VSH was very poor. Honestly, I simply couldn't keep them from dwindling away, which was very disappointing and costly, even F1 daughters of pure VSH were poor - maybe this was simply bad luck. However, I've tried F1 daughters from other breeders with similar results. I know others have had success with VSH and I'd like to hear more about that.

The Pol-Line bees were completely the opposite - fantastic bees! Without a doubt the best bees I've ever used - and I've tried a LOT of different breeds and breeders. Again, my evaluations are simple: honey, mites, and gentleness. Honey and gentleness are simple to assess, with the results of the Pol-Line being much better than other bees I've had and better than others in my local area. For mites I routinely monitor using sugar rolls, sticky boards, drone uncapping, and visual evidence. The Pol-Line (breeders and F1 daughters) have consistently shown very low mite counts. How do these traits hold up without additional infusion of pure genetics, well that's a continuing story for which I'll have more data this season. 

I realize that this doesn't address the main point of the thread, but a point to consider here is if you buy F1 daughters and they (and any potential daughters) last 2 or 3 seasons, wouldn't that represent good value? Sure VSH traits may not be lasting, but bees that survive and produce are certainly worthy of integrating into a breeding program.


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## squarepeg

hmmm, grooming (and autogrooming) is something i see on the landing boards fairly often. i thought is was fighting at first but it was definitely grooming instead. i think it may be worth journaling that observation......


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## JRG13

Astro, I really wanted to get one of the pol line queens but was planning on next year (which is now, 2013), guess I should've just pulled the trigger in 2012. I would agree with you, if you get 2-3 years out of the queen I think you've done well. Your mite population should've been kept down and if they were productive, worth the cost.


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## JWH

In the past, Tom Glenn obtained breeding material from the USDA program in Baton Rouge, and he maintained crosses of VSH without having to select for the VSH behavior. He sold the breeders, and many folks simply outcrossed daughters of those queens to produce VSH x unselected crosses -- and these colonies delivered about half of the resistance of the purebred parent line. However, the level of resistance afforded measurable slowing of mite population growth, and the hybrid colonies did not exhibit some of the problems that were sometimes seen in the purebred lines (small colony size; poor brood quality, etc.). 

It is difficult to directly select for the VSH behavior; however, beginning this year, I will establish a closed population breeding program at Mississippi State University that will try to produce an Italian-like stock with high expression of the VSH trait. This effort is in response to the retirement of Tom and Suki Glenn. I will select parents based on the ability to remove mite-infested brood from a comb (one of the USDA standard techniques), but we will also select for high honey production, low defense behavior, and maintenance of a good brood quality throughout the entire year. This last characteristic is important to help offset the tendency toward inbreeding. So, I don't know if others are measuirng VSH-related variables (e.g. percentage of infertile mites), but we intend to measure VSH behavior directly. The goal is to produce a VSH stock of bees that expresses VSH behavior at a level higher than currently available in the hybrid VSH colonies AND one that expresses the other desirable characteristics of Italian bees at reliable and predictable levels year after year. It will take years to produce a stable product, but it seems important to try and preserve the VSH trait in a stock rather than in selected lines (which are difficult to maitain, and they are inherently narrow in genetic base).


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## squarepeg

very cool stuff jwh, please keep us posted!


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## JSL

Welcome Jeff.

Do you think it is possible to incorporate VSH into a “stable” production line? If so, how do think a trait such as VSH would reach a stable equilibrium within a population and not present such a high energetic cost to the colony.

Joe


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## AstroBee

JRG13 said:


> I really wanted to get one of the pol line queens


I wish I had bought about a dozen.....


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## JWH

Hello Joe,

I do think that VSH can be made more useful, but the question of stability is interesting. I see it as stable as any other selected trait -- when selection is released, the trait will likely equilibrate to some level significantly lower than what is selected. For example, if any breeder stopped selection pressure on a closed population, it would slowly divert to something less than desired (most likely). This is the problem with bee breeding -- or maybe animal breeding in general -- it takes a sustained effort. There are many examples -- yourself, Sue Cobey, and many of the California queen breeders. All have stocks of bees with desired characteristics -- low defense behavior being an obvious characteristic of some stocks. As soon as the selection pressure is eased, genes will gradually drift from the selected level. So, breeding is certainly a long term commitment.

However, I do believe that VSH can be made higher than is found in hybrid colonies and lower than parental lines, and the resulting colonies will be nice and well liked bees. I am not going out on a limb here; Garrett Doods of the USDA Honey Bee Breeding Lab tinkered with developing a closed population breeding VSH-Italian stock for a few seasons. He was producing some nice bees when the effort was dropped for more pressing issues. He modeled the breeding after Sue Cobey's New World Carniolan program (but on a much smaller scale). His results encouraged my current effort.

As a sideline, Garrett was shifted to producing VSH bees (with his boss Dr. Bob Danka) to produce the Pol-Line bees -- which are an Italian based VSH line that performs l in migratory pollination. My breeding will focus on stationary apiaries. So, we will likely have similar stocks, but my selection methods will be patterned more after what Sue has done for many, many years.


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## adamf

A great thread...love to hear from Jeff on VSH: thank you for all your
work Dr. Harris!

VSH in a population can reduce mite levels and associated problems
(vectored virus, other ones). Large commercial honey producers who run 10's
of thousands of colonies and large commercial queen producers feel that VSH
expression is helping their bee population's vigor. VSH is certainly not
the only answer to honey bee health in apiculture but it is a simple and
effective way to add robustness in the face of hostile pathogens and tough,
stressful management.

Selecting for VSH behavior isn't that hard, it just takes time and one has
to be committed to performing the test. 

Link:
http://www.extension.org/pages/30984/selecting-for-varroa-sensitive-hygiene

The "Mite Infertility" test is the most straightforward.

We will be using this test scenario and an alcohol wash test scenario to asses
VSH levels in our breeding colonies.

Alcohol Wash Link:
www.vpqueenbees.com/awa

We also run a completely treatment free operation, so simply, the colonies
that perform well meeting our breeding standards are used to make breeder queens--some of them have known VSH
expression levels (as they were obtained from germplasm from the USDA and crossed using AI), others do not, but 
assuming they are alive and thriving, they are doing well somehow. 

All our future breeding stock will be vetted using _both _tests, in addition to our suite of performance testing.

One of the goals the USDA hopes to achieve with the VSH program is for
breeders and queen producers to learn how to test for the behavior. The
chance the behavior is in your bee population is fairly good: finding it
and breeding from those queens that show it, is more difficult.

On the VSHBreeders forum (www.vshbreeders.org), most posters are using VSH stock and
just getting into queen breeding. Our operation and Tom Glenn's operation
as well as a few other breeder's there all obtained germplasm from the USDA
program--then it has been up to us to make something from the material.

It is encouraged to trade stock on the forum, and by joining and contributing, one
might find really excellent bee stock to make queens from. Commercial operators trade stock all the time--it's a great way to keep
one's diversity high while testing new blood.

VP Queen Bees will offer pure VSH breeding stock, Pol-line stock, and VSH expressing
Carniolan/Italian stock like Tom Glenn did: we will be partnering with the USDA Lab at Baton Rouge. 
We plan to continue producing VSH breeding germplasm for folks to use and incorporate into their operation.

Please feel free to contact me or Kelly about VSH stock and please surf
over to VSHBreeders.org and see what's going on. 

Stock trading for free with others who have similar goals, is a pretty good deal! 


Adam Finkelstein & Kelly Rausch
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## squarepeg

adam, i'm set up for the alcohol washes, but not sure exactly how to measure infertility.

would pulling a frame of capped drone brood just prior to emergence work? how many pupae would one need to inspect? what is a good percentage of infertility?


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## adamf

squarepeg said:


> adam, i'm set up for the alcohol washes, but not sure exactly how to measure infertility.
> 
> would pulling a frame of capped drone brood just prior to emergence work? how many pupae would one need to inspect? what is a good percentage of infertility?



You use worker brood. Specific aged brood, 100+ cells. Count degree of infestation per cell. % of single mites per cell in your sample is what you want to be higher with VSH Expression.

This links pretty much goes over the whole test. 

http://www.extension.org/pages/30361/varroa-sensitive-hygiene-and-mite-reproduction

http://www.extension.org/pages/30984/selecting-for-varroa-sensitive-hygiene
Select on Mite Infertility


Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## squarepeg

got it! this is new info for me. looks like i've got some homework to do! 

the mississippi campus is not that far from me, but the alabama a & m is even closer. are there labs with colonies that one can visit?


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## squarepeg

just watched the video of dr. harris' lecture on the extension.org site. i wasn't aware that the hygienic behavior involved multiple uncapping and recapping of brood. fascinating.

adam, do you have a benchmark for threshold infestation rate and colony survival in your treatment free bees?

what is your approach to managing colonies in which that threshold is exceeded?

many thanks.


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## JSL

Jeff,

I agree, artificially selected traits revert to a much lower equilibrium once the selection pressure is removed. However, if Varroa is the issue or selection force on honey bee survival that we believe it to be, it may suggest that VSH should be greatly favored in selection if it is beneficial for survival. I agree that VSH does reduce Varroa levels, but at a huge cost to overall colony fitness. Does this provide some insight as to where VSH appears at such a low frequency in unselected populations? I believe Adam’s statement that VSH has added “vigor” to commercial operations is inaccurate. That has not been my experience each time I have attempted to incorporate the trait. Hybrid vigor appears to confound a perceived benefit to colony health and fitness when pure VSH lines are outcrossed. The initial outcrosses can be productive, but again the trait does not appear to stabilize in the sense that an “ideal” level can be identified and targeted. This in itself makes such a trait challenging for commercial beekeepers to rely on as a method of control. I am not aware of commercial operations using VSH stock on a large scale. It also makes me wonder why Bob Danka would solicit feedback from beekeepers as to what “soft treatments” they use in conjunction with their VSH stock. I don’t treat my stock either, but I do not advocate this approach to commercial beekeepers that rely on their colonies in a production environment, which is a different animal all together. 

Each time I have attempted to stabilize the VSH trait, things look good for the first initial cross or two. Once the frequency/expression of the trait is increased the negative aspects of VSH appear, as what is seen in the parental lines. I am not certain it is a matter of maintaining a larger population modeled after Page and Laidlaw. It does not appear to be an issue of inbreeding, but rather a consequence of the behavior itself

Jeff, you may understand this trait better than anyone, but I am at a loss as to how or why it would be beneficial to incorporate such a trait into a production line. I believe there have been many attempts over the many years to incorporate VSH into programs, but it does not appear to be functional. 

Joe


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## TWall

Joe,

It almost sounds like the VSH lines express the hybrid vigor, at least for mite control. Is this a case where the most productive, commercially, queens are daughters of a VSH queen?

Is a classic type of hybrid vigor seen when honey bee races are crossed? Are they homogenous enough?

Tom


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## JSL

Tom,

Jeff is the expert on the intricacies of VSH. In my experience, lines that expressed a high level of VSH behavior were very poor colonies. Daughter queens raised from highly selected lines still retain approximately 50% expression of the behavior. However, I think the daughter queens were also getting a boost from hybrid vigor as well because it appeared that in order to get a high frequency of VSH, inbreeding was necessary.

I think this gets back to Deknow’s initial post about who is actually selecting for VSH and how does the beekeeper know what he or she is buying. In my experience, the assumption is that good production queens actually expressed a notable level of VSH behavior. However, when I evaluated crosses, colonies with high level expression of VSH were often times not very viable, especially the longer the colony was intact. Jeff commented that one of his goals is to develop a line with “good brood quality throughout the entire year”. I think that is the key. 

Joe


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## adamf

JSL said:


> Jeff, I believe Adam’s statement that VSH has added “vigor” to commercial operations is inaccurate. That has not been my experience each time I have attempted to incorporate the trait.
> 
> Each time I have attempted to stabilize the VSH trait, things look good for the first initial cross or two. Once the frequency/expression of the trait is increased the negative aspects of VSH appear, as what is seen in the parental lines. I am not certain it is a matter of maintaining a larger population modeled after Page and Laidlaw. It does not appear to be an issue of inbreeding, but rather a consequence of the behavior itself


Joe, 
there's a very good demand for VSH stock used by breeders and producers. 
Many are using the VSH suite in sub-populations and are currently testing.
I would not state that VSH is helping to provide vigor in stocks
if I did not have the actual demand for VSH breeding stock from
queen breeders. Maybe their breeding programs are different then
yours?


Regarding Jeff's mention of his breeding program, The concept of
a VSH Italian type bee, productive and showing mite-resistance,
has been conceptualized and implemented with the Pol-line program.
Jeff's mention of using selection colonies based on static operations
is another take on this. Many queen breeding programs have as their
final goal, a queen type that is both productive in a commercial
management scenario and resistant to mites and associated pathogens 
enough to need fewer annual chemical treatments. This is what we
all want! It is a work in progress.


Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## rainesridgefarm

Great to see Jeff on this forum. He is truly the expert in this area and a great resourse for our industry. Glad to hear that you are continuing your great work that you did at the USDA. I have purchased three years of VSH breeders from Glenn to add to our operation and have seen a real improvement in our overall stock. Go Hummingbirds


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## AstroBee

rainesridgefarm,

How long have your had VSH in your yards? Which breeders did you get from Tom? How strong (good brood patterns and good populations) are your colonies that are breeder or F1 daughters?


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## JSL

Adam,

I agree there is demand for inseminated breeder queens. However, I do not agree that VSH is a productive part of that demand. Deknow’s original point was that a lot of people use the term VSH, but how many are actually selecting for it. My contention is there are a lot of queens sold as “VSH” that do not express the behavioral characteristic at a beneficial level. If the stock was expressing VSH at a beneficial level, beekeepers would see just how energetically expensive and detrimental the trait is to colony survival. This is why I suggested the “VSH breeder queens” and the performance of their daughters are confounded by heterosis expressed in subsequent generations, with no apparent benefit or expression of VSH. Please correct me if you disagree, but I believe you as well as Tom and Suki were constantly making outcrosses to maintain the vitality of the lines.

You mentioned the Pol-line program. Perhaps Jeff can share further details, but I would hardly call that a program by any standard. My understanding of the development of the “Pol-line” was that daughter queens from a single VSH queen were free flight mated in a larger commercial operation that I have worked with and supplied stock to for many years. The free flight mated queens were then tracked through the operation and the best later became the foundation for semen supplied to Tom and Suki. Again, I think this was an outcross attempting to increase vigor and mask the detrimental effects observed when a high frequency of VSH is observed in a population. 

I think it is important that beekeepers know what they are actually buying. It takes many years to establish and test lines. Simply making a cross and putting a label on it does not constitute a breeding program. Again, I think this is Deknow’s actual point.

Joe


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## JRG13

Joe,

I was curious, apart from VSH/hygenic behavior, do we know how 'survivor' stocks combat the mites? Is it better grooming we need to look for or something that hasn't been quantified? I only ask because much of the time I wonder how regionality and mainly non-migratory success of treatment free management styles affect the overall success of the programs, or maybe there's migratory success stories of treatment free??


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## squarepeg

thanks jrg for asking that question. i too am interested in a measure or a count or a benchmark beyond just survival in assesing this trait. many of the treatment free beekeepers i ask reply they don't measure, as survival alone dictates management.

maybe those of us keeping treatment free and raising queens could look at similar measures as jeff does, and we could compare notes. i am in the learning mode as to how to select and deselect for heartiness including mite resistance. what are the best tools at our disposal? how do those of you that have been doing this already approach it?

(you don't have to answer if it means revealing any trade secrets and/or proprietary and confidential information)

i love the idea of swapping our best queens, if we all use some sort of standard measure, it would make the selection and swapping more meaningful.


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## JSL

JRG13,

I will start another thread to reply to your questions. I do not want to deviate too far from Deknow's original questions.

Joe


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## Broke-T

I guess I should keep my mouth shut but here goes. I sell open mated VSH queens. I am not a queen breeder but more a queen propagator. I don't have the time to be a breeder, so I buy II pure VSH queens from Tom Glenn,who will be missed by many, Adam at VP Queens and Dr. Harbo. I take those queens, graft from them, and mate the resulting daughters to drones produced by the previous years queens. I use what I need and sell the rest. I try to produce above average queens by starting small number of cells in large cell builders, using larger mating nucs, running 3 week cycles so queens are laying well when pulled and never banking queens. It seems to be working.

I am a small non-migratory beekeeper with around 150 hive. They are treatment free. I loose less than 20% per year to all problems. We produced a little over 100 lbs per hive this year. By my definition that is successfull. 

VSH works for me, but I am sure Joe's breeders would too. This is not a one size fits all business. What works for me may not work in a northern migratory operation. 

I realize treatment free won't work for everyone. But it is working for some, and other are able to drop from hard chemicals to softer treatments. 

For the sake of bees and beekeeping lets quit bashing each others work and keep trying to find a solution.

Just my 2 cents, Johnny


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## squarepeg

johnny, all i can say is :thumbsup:!


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## JSL

Johnny, my apologies if my comments and observations appeared to be “bashing” in nature. That was not my intent.

VSH is an interesting trait to me. I worked with some of the initial lines developed, back when it was called Suppression of Mite Reproduction (SMR). My initial understanding was that SMR was influencing mite reproduction through a chemical cue, perhaps something the brood was producing or perhaps something the brood was lacking that was negatively impacting Varroa reproduction. The poor brood patterns were evident with the early lines, but I noticed that by removing a frame of eggs from a colony that expressed a high level of SMR and placing the frame of eggs in an unselected colony, I saw solid frames of brood develop. However, the frames of brood in the SMR colony looked like shotgun brood.

My graduate work focused on behavioral genetics, specifically learning and the pathways associated with underlying genetic mechanisms that influence the expression of behavioral traits. After seeing the difference in brood development when the SMR eggs were placed in an unselected colony, I began to think it may be more behavioral in nature. I think this is about the same time Marla started looking at the trait. Later the name was changed to Varroa Sensitive Hygience (VSH). I assume this was to reflect the work that showed it was a behavioral trait. 

It is interesting to me from the perspective that it is another example of how behavior can influence resistance mechanisms. I think VSH would be ideal if the behavior was more targeted and directed. From my work with selecting lines for their abilities to perform specific learning tasks, I realized that honeybees have limits with regard to accuracy and performance. If VSH could be developed to more accurately target only Varroa infested brood and less of the general approach that is shows at this time, then beekeepers are in business. Nonetheless, another fascinating example of how behavior can be influenced by genetics.

Joe


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## deknow

Johnny,

I'll try to write some more later (I've got some things to finish up first), but your post is important wrt my original questions.

You are (by your own words and description) not really "breeding", but mating this years imported stock to last years (essentially....I'm sure other genetics and other years stock creeps in there as well).

This has been my understanding of what buying VSH was good for...and it is encouraging to hear that it is working for you.

My interest is more towards breeding...both our own project, and encouraging as many other beekeepers to do the same...on any scale. The more we have going on, the more approaches, possibilities, and beekeepers thinking about breeding we have. I'm not trying to trash anyone's work, I'm trying to clarify what is actually happening....both for myself and for others. The way you are using VSH breeder stock is absolutely appropriate. You are relying on your suppliers to provide appropriate stock, and crossing to last years queens seems to give you the right active level of VSH for your needs. You either need to do what you are doing, or you need a way to measure VSH expression.

I know of more than two local (to me) breeding initiatives that started with VSH breeders to mate with whatever was local in an attempt to establish a mite resistant localized stock. This is a terrible use of VSH technology (for reasons I pointed out in the first post of this thread). There is little guidance out there to help a beekeeper figure this stuff out. There is a lot of "hype" around VSH and mite resistance....again, there are appropriate ways to apply this, and not so appropriate ones. My only goal is to try and clarify this stuff for us all.

deknow


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## squarepeg

dean, so is what you see johnny doing right is to keep introducing ii queens every year, and mating them with last years grafts vs. letting them mate with whatever is around?


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## Broke-T

Based on what Jeff and others have told me you need at least 50% VSH trait to help in varoa control. By using last years queens as drone mothers I am getting a lot of pure VSH drones out to mate with. This should put my VSH level somewhere between 50% and 100%. Jeff also said that early on the pure VSH queens had such a hight brood removal rate that they couldn't sustain themselves. That problem was addressed. I have not seen this problem in the pure VSH breeders that I have purchased the last two years. The breeders from VP Queens have been especially good layers.

Breeding cattle over the last 20 years has shown me that not only do you have to select for the good but also cull the bad. With bees, the mites do a pretty good job of handling that for us.

Just some more thoughts, Johnny


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## squarepeg

interesting, thanks johnny.


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## Nature Coast beek

A good study on the VSH trait from various breeders' stock. Study shows in concrete numbers how the VSH trait renders the mites infertile.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/64133000/PDFFiles/490-Danka--Expression of varroa.pdf


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## NorthwestQueens

I've never been more challenged going into this year’s breeder queen selection. The VSH trait is very difficult to stabilize within a population. Too little, too much I’m always walking the tightrope. The top three selection criterion: 1. Mite management, 2. Honey Production, 3. Northwest Survivor. About half my population exhibit VSH to some degree. This is based on brood removal from light to so extreme external brood is added to maintain colony strength. The other half of the population has low mite counts and solid slabs of brood. The plan is to try and understand the grooming (non VSH ) better and see if I can separate the traits somewhat. All my VSH boosting has come from semen out of USDA Baton Rouge, LA. I must admit quantifying the grooming trait comes up a more than a little short. I want you to know I’m working on the question in the initial post starting this thread.

Mark


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## AstroBee

JSL said:


> I worked with some of the initial lines developed, back when it was called Suppression of Mite Reproduction (SMR).


Joe,

I was wondering what experience you have with recent releases of VSH bees from the USDA. Could there have been recent changes that could impact your general position on VSH? 

I find VSH very puzzling. In particular, why are some people, like Broke-T and others, having such success, while others are not. Broke-T is working with (from what I gather) very pure VSH stock and claims good yields. In a previous post I recounted the brood viability issues that I've experienced with several attempts at VSH (Glenn stock and others). What could possibly explain the wide variation of performance? Any thoughts?


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## deknow

From where I'm sitting, I don't have any way of knowing how "VSH " the bees broke-t is working with. I assume that II stock from the USDA has been evaluated for VSH expression. I don't know anything about the other sources, and no one has claimed that they have been evaluated for VSH. I appreciate the openness we've had in this discussion, but I wouldn't make the assumptions about the level of VSH expression that broke-t is making. You either have to start with stock of know expression, or you have to evaluate what you have....my reading is that neither has been done.

Joe's analysis of the pol line queens is also what I came up with in reading up on it.

Selecting for common "good traits" does not select for VSH, and the confusion that has been created makes things more difficult for everyone.

Deknow


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## squarepeg

perhaps it's easier and more practical to 'deselect'. nature does this with deadouts, and we can do it by requeening.


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## AstroBee

I probably shouldn't have singled out Broke-T, but since he contributed to this thread I thought it was most relevant to the discussion. Broke-T, I hope you're OK with me using you as a case of success with VSH bees. 



deknow said:


> From where I'm sitting, I don't have any way of knowing how "VSH " the bees broke-t is working with.


In an earlier post:



Broke-T said:


> snip .....I buy II pure VSH queens from Tom Glenn,who will be missed by many, Adam at VP Queens and Dr. Harbo.


It seems to me that if anyone is producing VSH bees it would be these three. Perhaps you should spend some time reading Harbo's website. See http://www.harbobeeco.com/breeder-queens/ for details. As for Tom Glenn's bees, he had a CRADA with the USDA for which he received pure VSH germplasm, so I think its fair to assume that his stock was reasonably pure VSH. As for VP-queens, well he's contributed much here and I'll let him restate his VSH evaluation protocol.


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## JBJ

We have incorporated the VSH/SMR genetics several times over the years; starting the first year they were available. It has been 3 or 4 years since I have purchased any breeders and we can still observe VSH in action. I feel the trait can be maintained with out sacrificing viability or productivity at all. This is done by selecting queens that can cope with heavy mite pressure without collapse or loss in productivity. Of the 16 breeders we identified this way, we subsequently performed a freeze killed brood assay, and about half had 100% clean-out in 24 hours. I believe when Spivac's Minnesota hygs were compared to VSH, a number of years ago, the VSH tested slightly more hygienic with the same test. Perhaps freeze killed brood assay can be used to screen for candidates that are likely to exhibit VSH? One thing for sure a decent level of VSH can be maintained with sacrifice of productivity. Variable degrees heredity continues to be a challenge but isolated mating yards and II should help. 

There are many genes involved in the suppression of mite reproduction and VSH is not the only one. It should only be a matter of time before marker assisted selection comes to bear in our industry and we should see some rapid advances in bee breeding. I also feel it is better to look first for these traits we are interested in already productive lines as opposed to starting with extremely resistant but purportedly less productive lines.


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## squarepeg

>This is done by selecting queens that can cope with heavy mite pressure without collapse or loss in productivity.

jbj, can you elaborate on the criterian you used in this initial selection process? i.e. were mite counts used, was productivity relative to other hives in the yard or a specific harvest quantity?


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## JSL

AstroBee,

It has been a couple of years since I last looked at VSH lines. I have attempted to incorporate VSH into my existing lines on several occasions over the years. I do not object to VSH outright. I am intrigued by it and would like it to work for me, which is why I keep working at it. 

John Harbo states he has overcome the brood issue, which I was not able to get past once I intensified VSH in my test crosses. I may be in a different position that most as I can intensify the frequency of VSH after my initial crosses whereas most may not have that option.

My only objection to VSH is that it does not appear to be specific or targeted enough. In my experience, the relatively broad hygienic aspect of the trait is what makes it costly.

Joe


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## AstroBee

JSL said:


> I may be in a different position that most as I can intensify the frequency of VSH after my initial crosses whereas most may not have that option.
> Joe


Just for clarity sake, you mean intensify VSH through II, correct? 




JSL said:


> My only objection to VSH is that it does not appear to be specific or targeted enough. In my experience, the relatively broad hygienic aspect of the trait is what makes it costly.
> 
> Joe


Perhaps this is the hurdle that Harbo has cleared?


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## Whitetail

I've utilized both VSH and Hygienic Italian breeders from Glenn for the past three years. (The last two years the hygienics were specifically Pol Line Hygienic Italians) I keep bees with no treatments. I've had great luck with both. I do share most peoples fondness of the Pol Lines. Top notch bee. I've had a lot of VSH F1's do very well also. Last I checked the II'd breeders for the past two years are still heading colonies with no treatments. I do not have issues with shotgun brood patterns. It was my understanding that was selected out of the breeding population. I keep seeing more and more pronounced VSH expression in my bees. I toy with a great deal of feral stock as well. I've caught feral swarms that express uncapping behavior to a great degree and keep low mite levels. Natural selection from varroa pressure? There are no other Beekeepers around using this stock unless they obtained it from me. I'm not touting these traits as the "silver bullet" but I feel they have improved my stock overall in regards to survivability.(absence of brood diseases, and overall lowering of mite levels) I look forward to adding other traits for varroa resistance to these I've already implemented as well.


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## adamf

JSL said:


> Adam,
> 
> I agree there is demand for inseminated breeder queens. However, I do not
> agree that VSH is a productive part of that demand. Deknow's original point
> was that a lot of people use the term VSH, but how many are actually
> selecting for it. My contention is there are a lot of queens sold as "VSH"
> that do not express the behavioral characteristic at a beneficial level. If
> the stock was expressing VSH at a beneficial level, beekeepers would see
> just how energetically expensive and detrimental the trait is to colony
> survival. This is why I suggested the "VSH breeder queens" and the
> performance of their daughters are confounded by heterosis expressed in
> subsequent generations, with no apparent benefit or expression of VSH.
> Please correct me if you disagree, but I believe you as well as Tom and
> Suki were constantly making outcrosses to maintain the vitality of the
> lines.


Hi Joe,
There's enough of a demand for VSH and VSH type inseminated breeder queens
to keep people busy during the season...  Scepticism is healthy, certainly.
And yes, as we all know from reading the material here on beesource,
there's a very good reason to be sceptical when claims are made without
real-world proof. However, what's been done with the VSH program has been working for many
and with the Pol-line research and offerings to the public, VSH seems to be
helping in commercially tested scenarios. Here's a quote from Dr. Bob Danka
from the USDA Honey Bee Breeding, Genetics and Physiology Laboratory:

"_An offshoot of the main VSH research is the development of the "Pol-line"
population. This effort began in 2008 when we selected some outcrossed VSH
colonies at the end of a test we ran in cooperation with a large beekeeping
operation whose focus is on crop pollination. The Pol-line population has
been augmented with more colonies each subsequent year, and all colonies
have been combined in annual propagations. Last year we propagated 32 queen
lines. The colonies that get added generally are chosen because they
survived with large bee populations and low varroa populations after being
used for migratory pollination and/or honey production. We have been
fortunate to be able to increase the level of selection during the past two
years by testing more bees that are managed in three, large-scale,
commercial migratory beekeeping operations. We are trying to create bees
that function well in such operations while retaining significant
expression of VSH. We distributed some of this breeding material through
Glenn Apiaries while we continue to work on developing the population_."

(full thread on USDA stock strains is here:
http://vshbreeders.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=153)

As with this program's breeding design, we're selecting for hardiness and
productivity with the ability to perform without any chemical treatments.
We use some foundation stock from the USDA, stock from other beekeepers that
manage their bees without treatment, stock from successful commercial
beekeepers who watch their treatments...you know the drill. We are not
solely crossing high VSH strains with other strains, but keeping a more
heterogeneous population with our suite of good economic traits as our base selector and
survivability as the main selection criterion over that. Some make it, some do not.
We'll be measuring VSH levels using the tests mentioned earlier in the
thread, this season and I am extremely interested to see how the VSH levels
correlate with the overall population's success.

To answer your question, Joe, we do make outcrosses sometimes, but we're
more often following a more gradual mating design where we try to cross the
whole desirable population to candidates, some of which are certainly
different and would exhibit localized hybrid-vigor, but mainly to desirable
members within the group. We test/vet new stock first and determine if it
is desirable before we make any crosses that would be considered
"outcrosses".



JSL said:


> My understanding of the development of the "Pol-line" was that daughter
> queens from a single VSH queen were free flight mated in a larger
> commercial operation that I have worked with and supplied stock to for many
> years. The free flight mated queens were then tracked through the operation
> and the best later became the foundation for semen supplied to Tom and
> Suki. Again, I think this was an outcross attempting to increase vigor and
> mask the detrimental effects observed when a high frequency of VSH is
> observed in a population.


This was the initial description--there have been several years of selection
within the three cooperators' operations and at the USDA Lab at Baton Rouge.
The offering of the initial germplasm was made, and the results were
varied. As the program has grown, the results have become more uniform and
positive.

What I found interesting about the Pol-line data I saw at Baton Rouge was
that although the Pol-line strains were less high in VSH expression compared to pure 
VSH expressing stock, they performed well over-Winter and showed very good mite resistance, 
while being more productive then the pure VSH colonies. There is enough of _something _there
to impart resistance.



JSL said:


> I think it is important that beekeepers know what they are actually buying.
> It takes many years to establish and test lines. Simply making a cross and
> putting a label on it does not constitute a breeding program. Again, I
> think this is Deknow's actual point.


Sure, I agree. I don't think anyone involved with VSH breeding is doing
what Deknow's actual point was addressing. Scepticism is healthy! Results
obtained through empirical application support and verify concepts and
ideas. VSH in bee breeding will be tested in the years to come and
hopefully, it will pass the test!

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## JSL

Adam,

Thank you for the eloquent response. I think I stated earlier that I do not have an outright objection to the concept of VSH. 

Part of my background is in behavioral genetics and I have been involved in the development and maintenance of experimental research lines. Challenges associated with developing behavioral or other traits can be perplexing to say the least. Perhaps my concerns may be more theoretical in nature… VSH has been in the “works” for some time and yet from my perspective, the research comes back to the same inherent issue of developing a line with the “proper” level/expression of VSH and maintaining good brood viability. It seems to be a revolving cycle. Again, this is where my perhaps theoretical view comes into play. Are good brood viability and high expression of VSH diametrically opposed objectives? I do not believe the brood viability issue is a product of inbreeding, but rather a “cost” of the behavior itself. Honey bees only have so much acuity with regard to their ability to sense stimuli, process it and then initiate a response. This is speculative on my part, but I think there may be some stimulus that is initiating the pathway that leads to the measurable expression of VSH behavior. In other words, honey bees can only be so accurate. It is then the heightened sensitivity and expression of the behavior that leads to the increased visibility of “mistakes” with uncapping and or brood removal. At lower levels of VSH in a population, this negative effect is less evident. At higher levels it is evident. Can a lower frequency of the trait be maintained in a population that expresses an economically viable level of tolerance be developed? I do not know… From a long term perspective, if for the sake of argument VSH provides a selective advantage, what will prevent beekeepers from battling the tendency for populations to be selected for high levels of VSH, and in turn poor brood patterns? Will this be another challenge for beekeepers?

It appears to me that when VSH is actually measured and is present at higher frequencies, there is a cost to colony fitness.

The pre-Varroa days were certainly enjoyable. Since we as beekeepers do not have much choice but to deal with Varroa, I think it is safe to say it is certainly an interesting challenge for breeders.

Joe


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## JBJ

"It appears to me that when VSH is actually measured and is present at higher frequencies, there is a cost to colony fitness." JSL

The same could be said of Varroa present at higher frequencies. Wouldn't long term higher mite loads pose a greater cost to colony fitness?


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## JWH

Dear Whitetail,

I am glad to hear of your apparent success of incorporating VSH into useful bees. Although Dr. John Harbo had initiated work to breed out poor brood quality in VSH lines, I did not sustain his efforts after he retired. So, I caution that some purebred VSH lines will undoubtedly produce poor brood patterns. I am sure that the Bee Lab in Baton Rouge tries to eliminate obvious problems when they see them, but it is also the nature of line breeding. 

Additionally, I hear a lot of people talk about not treating for Varroa mites after using this or that stock for an extended period. That's fine as long as the decision not to treat is based on solid sampling regimes and an IPM approach to the problem. Currently, no stock or line of bees is completely resistant to Varroa -- so relying on any resistance mechanism without proper sampling is folly. I hear it all of the time. I don't treat because I use resistant stock -- three years later the beekeeper could suffer huge losses. All treatment decisions, with or without a resistant stock, should be based on sampling for threshold pest levels. I hope this is the case for your situation.

Sincerely,

JWH


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## squarepeg

>"All treatment decisions, with or without a resistant stock, should be based on sampling for threshold pest levels."

jwh, can you share what you would consider a treatment threshold for varroa?


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## JBJ

Good point JWH; 

Harbo is Still working, from his web site: "A top priority of Harbo Bee Company was to solve the problem of poor brood production. This was not a common inbreeding condition but probably the result of poor brood care by worker bees and/or a susceptibility to European foulbrood. Since not all VSH colonies expressed this problem, we had enough variability to correct this situation with selective breeding. We now have full expression of the VSH trait in colonies that are also good brood and honey producers. "


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## JSL

Jeff,

Your explanation is one of the most direct explanations I have seen in a while. While I do not treat my population, I am very hesitant to claim they offer resistance, for the very explanation you provided. Dealing with Varroa is like shooting at a moving target.



> Additionally, I hear a lot of people talk about not treating for Varroa mites after using this or that stock for an extended period. That's fine as long as the decision not to treat is based on solid sampling regimes and an IPM approach to the problem. Currently, no stock or line of bees is completely resistant to Varroa -- so relying on any resistance mechanism without proper sampling is folly. I hear it all of the time. I don't treat because I use resistant stock -- three years later the beekeeper could suffer huge losses. All treatment decisions, with or without a resistant stock, should be based on sampling for threshold pest levels. I hope this is the case for your situation.



Joe


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## NorthwestQueens

One area that I feel should be highlighted in conjunction with mite count levels is what I call mite, “pressure”. If your hives are located near colonies that were just moved out of the almond pollination cycle your hives mite pressures will be very high. On the other hand if your hives find themselves in a very isolated area your external mite pressures are low. I’ve found this external pressure to explain why one person in an isolated area exclaims how mite resistant his bees are and when queens are used by others in a slightly higher mite pressure area they simply collapse. 

Can we fracture the resistance mechanism at play into percentages within a hive? For example:
Grooming---30%, VSH trait 70%. I’ve got colonies with low mite counts that show no VSH brood depopulation. I conclude more grooming at play, but just how much. Just to throw one more challenge ahead in the data gathering area.

Mark


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## JWH

Yes, I know that John is still breeding, and he is being very careful about brood quality. I will do the same as I breed here. 

I also wanted to comment on Joe Latshaw's point about too much hygiene being the source of poor brood quality. I tend to agree with Joe, but I too admit that the claim is fairly unsupported except from my experience. I think that John Harbo would argue that the brood quality is a separate issue from the resistance mechanism and that the two can be decoupled. He certainly has been able to produce strong VSH colonies that produce nice colonies. However, given the complex genetics of VSH, I still am not convinced that selection for maximal VSH behavior without any correction for poor brood production will always produce colonies that dwindle and develop spotty patterns. That experience suggests to me a strong connection between the mechanism of resistance and brood quality. However, John Harbo's experience also suggests that perhaps a balance between strong expression of VSH and always keeping good brood production can be reached -- which is something that Joe had questioned in an earlier approach. I am the hopeless optimist that it can be done.


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## Whitetail

JWH,

My decision not to treat, is unfortunately not based on a solid sampling routine. I knowingly allow high mite levels to accumulate in some of my hives. My decision is based solely on the desire to see how queen lines perform without human assistance. (crutch) I don't readily accept "threshold" treatment suggestions, regardless of the credibility of the source. I have some stock that is shoddy at keeping low mite levels, yet produces a desireable crop, survives the winter, and displays no susceptibility to common mite vectored virus with no treatments. I do not graft from them, but don't prevent them from raising drones. I guess my drive for treatment free is strictly research/ curiosity based. I want to see how they perform with no intervention. I would find it hard to properly evaluate how the hive performs to mite pressure if I was alleviating it at a certain percentage. Bees are not my livelihood, only my passion. I'm hopelessly convinced our issues can be solved genetically. Thank you for your work on this project, and valued feedback on this forum. You've given us an effective tool for the toolbox.


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## deknow

If i may, I'd like to go back to my original post.



deknow said:


> I've read the postings over on the VSH Breeders website/forum, and I can't tell if (outside the formal USDA program) anyone is actually testing for VSH.


I ask this question again. I think what we've read here is that the USDA program does test for VSH. 

It doesn't seem that Glenn is testing for VSH, but that he is using USDA genetics in such a way that he is assuming that his stock is high in VSH expression.

Adam appears to be saying that he will start testing for VSH this season. His stock is advertised on his website as "All Our Queens Are Bred From Untreated Survivors and Selected for VSH Behavior
".

As far as I can tell, even the Pol Line queens are a few generations out of known VSH expression levels.

It does seem that virtually no one is actually testing for VSH expression, even close to the source of known VSH expression (the USDA).....extrapolate that down to the folks selling offspring (or offspring of offspring of offspring) and advertising VSH stock.

If any of this is innacurate or mistaken, please correct me...I'm not trying to accuse anyone of anything, just trying to figure out what is going on.



> We know that HYG and VSH will not persist in the population unless they are constantly selected for generation after generation.


Is there any data out there that refutes this (either a study or multigenerational breeding records where VSH has been measured but not specifically selected for)? I understand this to be a characteristic of such "hypertraits", and outside of very controlled breeding and/or testing/selection for VSH, it will not persist at an artificially high level over time.



> ...so how are breeders (that are not just propagating USDA stock) qualifying their bees as VSH? How are they able to provide VSH behavior without testing? How many generations have these stocks gone since they have been properly evaluated for VSH?


This question remains. I'm all in favor of selecting bees for survival, productivity, temperament, etc....but none of these selection criteria (nor does freeze testing) seem to also select for VSH behavior...do they?

I'm all for selecting good stock. I'm all for selecting from untreated survivors. I'm not implying that anyone (named or not) is selling anything substandard.

I think that if VSH does deter mites, that by focusing on it (and using it as a "hypertrait"), that we select against other mechanisms that bees use to fight the mite.

I think that if VSH is introduced into an operation, that in order to maintain VSH expression, that it has to be constantly brought in, or constantly selected for. In other words, If VSH is working for you, it will stop working over some number of generations.....not because the mites have adapted, but because the high expression of VSH will dissipate. Thus, bringing in VSH genetics to start or boost a local breeding program is folly....it is a trait that will not persist.

Using VSH properly is a commitment to either testing for VSH behavior, or buying stock from someone who does. This is a terrible tool for "local breeding"....it may well be a great tool for performance on a colony level, but it seems to fall flat when considered at a population level.

I don't really have an opinion on how well it works in specific circumstance (as I haven't used VSH queens), I'm just trying to untangle some of the marketing, hype, and facts....mostly wrt helping beekeepers start raising and breeding their own queens.

It is worth noting that on the vshbreeders.org forum, that there is little to no discussion on evaluating VSH behavior. It is also worth noting that almost no one anywhere talks about actually performing VSH testing. 

I'm not sure there is a formula that can tell you the amount of VSH expression based upon starting with "pure" stock, and outbreeding and backcrossing....it seems that such a formula is assumed by those selling high vsh expression based upon the crossings...but has anyone ever tested it?

deknow


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## camero7

> I think that if VSH does deter mites, that by focusing on it (and using it as a "hypertrait"), that we select against other mechanisms that bees use to fight the mite.


I agree to a certain extent. I don't raise my own queens at this point, but I do only buy queens that are advertised as VSH. I find that grooming behavior might be as important. I notice that some hives excel at this behavior and always have lower mite counts. I do see some uncapping behavior in all my hives, but this fall my mite counts were quite high. I do treat all my production hives. I do not treat my nucs.


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## Daniel Y

DeKnow, The loss of VSH traits over successive generations could be for at least a couple of factors. First it being a recessive trait prone to being lost if any non VSH gene is introduced due to successive matings. it is a black and white situation as I understand it. You either have VSH or you don't and it requires more than one set of genes to remain pure.

Second would be the inbreeding situation of honey bees in a more closed breeding situation of a small apiary. Evidence not by the loss of VSH but the loss of the bees entirely.

If testing such as freeze testing is not considered testing. Can you be more specific on what you consider is. mite counts. brood removal and many other "Tests" are done to measure VSH. Are they effective in determining VSH is still a question. I agree that freezing and killing brood is not the best of tests when you want to know if bees remove mite infested brood. mite infested brood is not dead or frozen. Are mite counts reliable. they vary from season to season dramatically. Colonies that would pass the test in June may fail miserably in October. What about the pin prick test. Again the brood is killed. a significant difference to me. As far as I know all bees remove dead brood... eventually. But do they remove it in 24 hours?

It does seem to me that standard and effective methods need to be established for testing for VSH. I have sen some discussion on the issue but nothing that looks like unity.

Marketing hype. there is no way around that money is in the issue. and that money maters have their effect. Beekeepers want a product they can trust but are leery about promises. I firmly believe that the resistant bee could be produced and beekeeping in general would not accept it for this factor alone. Yeah right another one with the better bee. Sceptacism. disappointment and distrust all combine to make an atmosphere that will have to be addressed as an issue to be overcome. Due to this I think that offering the VSH queen in it's incomplete form may be a mistake. To many will just see it as another false promise. Which to some degree it will be. In short VSh needs to be VSH not some degree of chance you have a queen that will produce a VSH colony. The problem is the development of VSH is expensive, so who is going to foot the bill? But that is trailing off the issue.

Best case I see is that VSH traits become connected to a visible trait that can be verified. such as Sex links in poultry. When poultry producers needed to be able to tell a male from a female chicken at the time it hatched. they bred visible indicators of a chicks sex into them. and only a male or a female carries that mark. They not only have done this they have done it in multiple ways. one breed of chicken the chicks are all yellow except the males have a small dark spot on top of their heads. in another bred the primary flight feathers are slightly longer than the secondary for the first few hours after hatching on the males. In another gene linked short legs on another breed of chicken is an indication that chick possesses a lethal gene and will be dead within days to weeks. Not a link you are looking for but another case where the seen is proof of the unseen.


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## squarepeg

looking at mite infestation rates isn't exactly the same as quantifying vsh behavior, because there may be other factors at play, i.e. a sudden influx of mites brought in during a robbing spree.

it does seem like it would be a good metric however to help ascertain whether or not the traits in question are leading to the desired outcome. i haven't been able to get an answer on how or if infestation rates are used in the process. 

(i am also interested in knowing what levels of infestation are being tolerated in treatment free operations that are getting good survivability and productivity)

i agree with you dean. this kind of information (testing) would be helpful for those purchasing queens, as well as for those wanting to have an effective queen rearing program of their own. i wish someone had the time to write a good book on the abc's of breeding great queens.....


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## deknow

Daniel Y said:


> DeKnow, The loss of VSH traits over successive generations could be for at least a couple of factors. First it being a recessive trait prone to being lost if any non VSH gene is introduced due to successive matings. it is a black and white situation as I understand it. You either have VSH or you don't and it requires more than one set of genes to remain pure.


This is not accurate at all.
All populations have _some_ expression of VSH. It is not a single trait. When VSH is described as a trait, it is the hyperexpression of an observable and measurable behavior that is being described. VSH is not binary....not "present" or "not present"....it is a continuum, not black and white. As to the level of expression required to be effective, it may be a brink type of effect (HYG behavior and AFB are of this type of effect).



> Second would be the inbreeding situation of honey bees in a more closed breeding situation of a small apiary. Evidence not by the loss of VSH but the loss of the bees entirely.


There may be some inbreeding at work here...but there is inbreeding in all selected populations. I don't have any evidence that it is any worse in VSH populations than in others.



> If testing such as freeze testing is not considered testing. Can you be more specific on what you consider is. mite counts. brood removal and many other "Tests" are done to measure VSH.


Freeze testing is a valid test...for HYG, not for VSH. http://www.extension.org/pages/30984/selecting-for-varroa-sensitive-hygiene has been posted by Adam. What we don't appear to have is a really great (even if cumborsome) way to directly evaluate VSH behavior (this would give us something to compare these other methods to as a way to guage their accuracy). My reading of things is that VSH is supposed to cause the bees to uncap brood cells containing varroa. Giving the bees a frame of capped brood under somewhat controlled conditions (known mite levels in brood, similar hive strength, similar foraging conditions, etc) would be a direct measure I think.


> Are they effective in determining VSH is still a question. I agree that freezing and killing brood is not the best of tests when you want to know if bees remove mite infested brood. mite infested brood is not dead or frozen. Are mite counts reliable. they vary from season to season dramatically. Colonies that would pass the test in June may fail miserably in October. What about the pin prick test. Again the brood is killed. a significant difference to me. As far as I know all bees remove dead brood... eventually. But do they remove it in 24 hours?


These are methods for determining HYG. The VSH folks claim that VSH is different, and therefore requires different tests.



> It does seem to me that standard and effective methods need to be established for testing for VSH. I have sen some discussion on the issue but nothing that looks like unity.


Standards aren't always good. I'd settle for seeing that those selling VSH stock were doing something to measure VSH expression.



> Marketing hype. there is no way around that money is in the issue. and that money maters have their effect.


I see nothing wrong with marketing hype, per se. I also see nothing wrong with VSH bees, Pol Line bees, survivor bees, VP bees, JSL bees....there is nothing wrong with any of them. What I object to is the use of VSH bees to start what are planned to be local breeding programs (by beekeepers that are not going to select based upon VSH or keep purchasing VSH stock). I also object to unverifiable claims of VSH expression....especially when more traditional selection criteria is really what is at work.

deknow


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## Daniel Y

Deknow, As I understand it VSH is a combination of behaviors that are genetic. I have recently seen indication that there is possibly one or two more.

1. capped cells of infested pupa are chewed open. this is one behavior and seperate from any others.

2. the infested pupa is removed from the cell and taken out of the hive. this a second and separate behavior.

It is only these two traits above that I understand to be traits of VSH, they are not the only behaviors that may effect mite resistance. Other traits are not indications of VSH. Both are genetic and both are recessive. lacking either of the two and colony fails to be VSH.

The following I have seen comments that have cause me to suspect the following. 

3. that bees will open capped cells and search for mites and if found will destroy them or remove the pupa. If no mite is found will recap the cell.Other behaviors that may be beneficial to resistance or ridding of mites in a colony.

1. Grooming. this is considered beneficial in that mites are captured and or killed when they have emerged from a cell while hitch hiking on an adult bee. From what I have read it is at best considered a minor benefit.

2. chewing of mites. Bees actually pursue catch and kill mites as they are seen. I have seen nothing on this one as to the degree of benefit it might be.

So although there are multiple behaviors that could be considered beneficial in mite control in a colony. not all are VSH traits. 

I believe that if you are looking for the entire range of behaviors in colonies that are claimed to be VSH. you are looking for to much. You may be expecting more than was being offered. Yes bees with VSH and grooming and chewing and a more iron skin would be nice. I just don't see it anywhere yet. I am not seeing bees that are reliably VSH yet.

So in a nut shell the average beekeeper paying for what they expect to be VSH queens can do. Is look for pupa being removed from the hive. or sign that cells have been uncapped and resealed. spotty but not excessively so brood where infested pupa where removed. Keep in mind the bees can go overboard on this brood removal stuff also. you want them to only be removing infested pupa not every brood that has a speck of dust on it. Such problems have and do happen.

Low mite counts at typical high mite times of the year woudl be in indication of VSH or other mite reducing behaviors. bottom line I don't think the average beekeeper cares if it is VSH according to definition. as long as there bees are not being wiped out by mites.


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## deknow

Daniel Y said:


> So although there are multiple behaviors that could be considered beneficial in mite control in a colony. not all are VSH traits.


More accurately, VSH traits are expressed at a wide range in all kinds of populations of honeybees...except for populations that are constantly selected specifically for VSH traits.

Populations that deal with varroa effectively (including but not limited to AHB) have widely variable expression of HYG and VSH....just like any other population.

Left to their own, when honeybees and varroa do achieve a manageable balance, it is not because of high VSH expression in the bees. There are other traits (and probably balances of traits) that are effective against mites long term....we know they exist because we can observe colonies surviving and swarming. VSH and HYG traits may be an important component...they may not. But given that VSH behavior is not how the bees demonstrate resistance, and given that unless is it specifically selected for it will dissipate to normal levels, it seems like a short term solution for a breeding program....one that serves to select against the more persistent mite fighting traits that we really want.

With that said, I don't have enough experience with VSH stock to make a judgment as to whether or not it is helpful when constantly re-introduced or constantly selected for. To me, this seems like a smart way to use the technology. Personally, I'm more interested in persistent population based improvements.

deknow


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## Oldtimer

deknow said:


> unless is it specifically selected for it will dissipate to normal levels
> 
> deknow


Everything will dissapate to normal levels, if it surrounded by and constantly mates with something else, which is considered to be the normal.

If you put a hive of blacks in an area where the "normal" is italian, after enough generations that hive will have reverted to the normal. (italians).


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## deknow

Yes....unless the trait in question offers significant survival/reproductive advantage at an acceptable cost....which is what VSH is commonly claimed to be.

It seems from the discussions here and elsewhere, that VSH stock is commonly outmated, and selected for survival/production. This is all well and good, but without some quantification of the expression of the trait in the successful offspring, we don't even have an idea what the VSH contribution is to the success of something like the pol line....and worse, it is such a costly trait that it will dissipate rather quickly in the population.

I would have not much to say about any of this if there were a real effort among breeders and producers to measure the trait they are selling....there is nothing ambiguous about claiming "high vsh expression"....it is a fact that everyone is looking for VSH bees (I think for the wrong reasons), and there is certainly demand in the market place....to me it seems that there is a vast disconnect between the claims of VSH expression, and the queens that beekeepers are actually getting that are supposed to be VSH.

Jeff measures, Glenn appears to base his claims on what he is getting from the USDA, and Adam is planning to start measuring this coming season. Earlier in the thread it was claimed that these three are the most likely sources of "pure" VSH stock....only one of them measures VSH expression, and we haven't heard a single claim from a single other beekeeper that measures VSH expression.

In the whole world of VSH bees available to the beekeeper, is there really only one person measuring? Are all the VSH bees ultimately coming from a few colonies at the USDA? Does this sound like something that will look smart in hindsight?

deknow


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## squarepeg

yep, a standardized metric would be very helpful in sorting this all out. 

dean, what do you think should be measured? i wonder if we could come up with some sort of protocol so that you, i, and others on the forum who may be selecting for mite resistance would have a means of comparison.


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## deknow

Survival, Productivity, Temperament.


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## squarepeg

absolutely! and without treatments is the goal.

can all that be quantified in such way that comparsions could be made?

or do all of the extraneous variables get in the way, i.e. location, feeding or not, ect.


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## frazzledfozzle

from what I understand you can graft 100 lavae from a High VSH queen open mate and end up with 10 queens having 80% rate of VSH 30 queens with 50% 40 with 30% and 20 with negligible VSH traits, or anything in between

If the breeder is not holding and assessing these queens over a period of a couple of brood cycles how will the purchaser know what amount of the VSH trait is in the purchased queen?

If you aren't testing the queens being sold then I would be annoyed if I was paying the same price for a queen that has 40% VSH expression while my neighbour got one with 80%.. bit of a crap shoot to my mind.

At what % of VSH expression is it deemed to be no longer helpful in mite reduction? 60%? 40%?

It seems to me that it's the increase in mite infertility thats the most important trait to consider rather than the uncapping and removal of mite infested pupae

frazz


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## deknow

..to clarify my other post, testing for VSH appears to be difficult enough that few do it. Selecting for color is easy enough. Selecting for traits you are willing to measure works....good examples of selecting a population for high and low pollen hoarding are in the literature. But buying in a trait that you can't maintain without performing a test doesn't make any sense for a long term breeding program, unless testing for the trait is part of the protocol.

Again, I think if the plan is to bring in selected stock constantly in order to produce a predictable colony level resistance, then VSH may well be a good tool. This is not what most beekeepers that want to start a localized breeding program are striving for.

Perhaps some of the newer (or future) iterations of the program will prove to be persistent....that selection for survival and production are sufficient pressures to keep VSH traits prominent in a population and contributing to the survival and production. Thus far, we don't appear to have seen this. I'm undecided as to whether I think it is a productive direction to work in or not....obviously there are some that do (and the market to support them), but this is not where we have put any of our efforts.

deknow


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## squarepeg

yep. my plan is to plod along using careful documentation and a little common sense and see what happens. who knows, maybe i'll end up with some awesome bees, at least for my part of the world. maybe some academic will show up some day and want to analyze my bees....


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## JBJ

"Perhaps some of the newer (or future) iterations of the program will prove to be persistent....that selection for survival and production are sufficient pressures to keep VSH traits prominent in a population and contributing to the survival and production. Thus far, we don't appear to have seen this. I'm undecided as to whether I think it is a productive direction to work in or not....obviously there are some that do (and the market to support them), but this is not where we have put any of our efforts." deknow

How long qualifies as persistent? We have been at it quite a while. Don't knock'em until you try'em.


Dr Lynn Royce form OSU is helping us with stock evaluation & assessment this year as well as II. work. Perhaps we can put some numbers together to quell the nay sayers.

We see this trait regularly in our Survivor Stock and still maintain great brood patterns.


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## jmgi

I don't have much to offer here on this subject, I don't know genetics, or even where to begin when you want to breed for a certain trait or traits. It is common sense though to understand that when you buy a VSH queen and a daughter queen is raised from her and she open mates, the chances are good that the resulting offspring will not have as much resistance to varroa as the original queen you started out with. The way I see it, and I could be wrong, is that VSH breeding is an experiment in futility. Really, what good is it to develop VSH characteristics in a queen only to have it disappear in a couple generations of open matings? If the ultimate goal is to flood the entire country with VSH bees so that no matter what drones a queen mates with, the offspring will have some VSH in them, I think that too is an unrealistic goal. So really, what is the end game of VSH breeding, I know that in the short term it is making a market for queens that are supposed to help with varroa, but those buyers will soon realize that some treatments are also necessary at some point to keep the hives alive. John


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## deknow

JBJ said:


> How long qualifies as persistent? We have been at it quite a while.


To quote myself (in answer to your question):
"....that selection for survival and production are sufficient pressures to keep VSH traits prominent in a population and contributing to the survival and production."



> We see this trait regularly in our Survivor Stock and still maintain great brood patterns.


...and VSH traits are found in virtually all populations of honeybees to some extent or another. No one thus far has shown that selecting for anything other than VSH specifically will select for VSH traits with any consistency. I'm not doubting your observations (I assume it is brood uncapping/recapping you are saying you see regularly), but without some quantification I'm not sure that it means anything more than you are selecting for survivor stock.

In the end this is interesting....VSH is used much like a "brand name" in the marketplace. Many beekeepers, breeders, and propagators appear to assign great weight to VSH characteristics...characteristics that we are told are present in all populations and only need be selected for. Yet, despite rather easy to follow procedures for assaying VSH behavior, virtually no one is doing it. It seems that more traditional evaluation criteria are still most important to beekeepers and breeders. Are those working with VSH at the cutting edge and doing work that will pay off in the future? I don't know, but thus far, I'm not convinced. The fact that VSH breeders generally don't select for VSH makes me less convinced.

deknow


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## AstroBee

deknow said:


> Jeff measures, Glenn appears to base his claims on what he is getting from the USDA, and Adam is planning to start measuring this coming season. Earlier in the thread it was claimed that these three are the most likely sources of "pure" VSH stock....only one of them measures VSH expression, and we haven't heard a single claim from a single other beekeeper that measures VSH expression.


If you're referring to an earlier comment I made, the list of three commercial producers that I gave was: Harbo (not Harris - don't believe he's making commercially available queens), Glenn, and Adam. This list was not, in anyway, meant to be all inclusive, as I'm sure there are others. Also, Tom or Suki might disagree with your assessment, perhaps someone else can provide more on their program.


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## deknow

Sorry, my mistake....apologies to Jeff and John.

The statement (not assessment) I made about the Glenn operation was based on what I think Jeff stated earlier in this thread. If this is incorrect (if Glenn does test and select for VSH), I would appreciate someone correcting me. I am trying hard to get the facts straight.



JWH said:


> In the past, Tom Glenn obtained breeding material from the USDA program in Baton Rouge, and he maintained crosses of VSH without having to select for the VSH behavior.


deknow


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## JBJ

" Yet, despite rather easy to follow procedures for assaying VSH behavior, virtually no one is doing it."- deknow

After my conversation with Dr Harbo, this procedure sounds like hours time consuming of tedious microscopy work. He said it is very, very slow going. It comes down determining the ratio of reproductive mites to non reproductive mites. I think one could easily underestimate the value of good field observations and heavy selection pressure. This is how we came up with breeders that were able to test 100% hygienic the FIRST time we ever tested. I am expecting similar results when we start determining reproductive ratios here. I am also looking forward to trying another breeder from Dr Harbo. She gets here in April.


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## deknow

...I used the phrase, "easy to follow" rather than "easy" for a reason...it may be tedious and time consuming, but it is not hard to do....kind of like splitting a cord of wood (easy to do, but tedious) vs carving a statue (requires much more skill and talent than splitting logs).

What were you starting with when you were able to produce breeders with 100% VSH expression?

How did you determine that they were 100% VSH?

What observations were you using to select VSH tratis?



deknow


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## Oldtimer

Wow 100% VSH! Nice work! 

After an 8 year program, best we've done so far in my country is 80% VSH, and still have not been able to fix the trait.

So question JBJ, does 100% VSH translate into zero mite reproduction in the hive?


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## ryan

""In the whole world of VSH bees available to the beekeeper, is there really only one person measuring? Are all the VSH bees ultimately coming from a few colonies at the USDA? Does this sound like something that will look smart in hindsight?

deknow""

I agree with you that there are only a handful of people testing for VSH. This does not limit the gene pool that VSH draws from. Those doing the testing are working with large and very diverse commercial beekeepers giving them access to ten of thousands of economically viable hives used all over the country in different applications. Because of the intense testing needed, it does appear most people who produce queens and cells will have to outsource the testing or buy stock every year. It does require more effort and expense from those want to raise VSH queens. 3rd party testing of potential breeder queens might become a new business for someone if VSH does 'take off'. 

Good luck to all this spring
ryan


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## ptmerrill

Jbj said "100% hygenic" he didnt say 100 % vsh just to keep the terms straight. He posted his pics last summer of the freeze kill brood removal patterns.


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## Oldtimer

Oh thanks for pointing that out I misread his post. Big difference.


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## JBJ

deknow said:


> ...I used the phrase, "easy to follow" rather than "easy" for a reason...it may be tedious and time consuming, but it is not hard to do....kind of like splitting a cord of wood (easy to do, but tedious) vs carving a statue (requires much more skill and talent than splitting logs).
> 
> What were you starting with when you were able to produce breeders with 100% VSH expression?
> 
> How did you determine that they were 100% VSH?
> 
> What observations were you using to select VSH tratis?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> deknow


As ptmerrill pointed out I was referring to HYG behavior, using the freeze killed brood assay. I found it interesting that we were able to obtain such results the first time. We reached this point by previously selecting productive hives year to year that were able to cope with mites without an acraricide. I suspect we will see similar results this spring when we start comparing ratios of fertile vs infertile mites.


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## squarepeg

john, if i wanted to compare fertile to infertile mites in my colonies, and wanted to compare that measure with yours and others, how would i do it?

i assume it would mean uncapping about 100 worker brood larvae and comparing the ratio of brood with only one mite to brood with multiple mites, and/or turn that ratio into a percentage? 

does it take a microscope to see immature mites?

are there certain times of year that this is done?

is this done in addition to or to replace freeze killed brood assay?

many thanks.


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## apis maximus

squarepeg, I hope John gets back with answers to your questions.

I only jump in because I've been playing around trying to see how practical a protocol of quantifying these fertile vs infertile mites might be...just for my curiosity. Got the bees...bees got mites...have the scopes...had some time, so I went to look for them. 

Tedious and slow is to put it mildly.

As a protocol, I tried to follow the one described by Rinderer and Kulincevic. I have the PDF but I believe the USDA Bee lab also has the paper in its entirety on their site. Yes, uncapping 100 worker brood cells, but not any brood...16-17 days old(dark eyes and light brown abdomen). That right there, just trying to gauge and figure out the whole thing, it means you have to open more than 100 cells. As you do, trying to identify and classify the mites you do find, is also very slow.
A 20x-40x stereo microscope would suffice for the purpose...You're looking for the female that initially got into the cell and her progeny (mature male, daughter(s) mature and imature, and eggs. Just learning to differentiate them is not hard, they clearly look very different. 

Gathering all of them, making sure you don't miss too many...tabulating...and then interpreting, especially if you try to compare your results with what the literature or other beeks willing to do this might have, would also take time.
Personally I just tried 2 hives that were started as splits in the spring(March) and the same 2 hives in the fall...In the spring, I did see mites on the bees, but hardly any on worker pupae that I was looking to tabulate...there were some on drone brood, but I did not consider those. Coming fall...different story. One hive had 65 fertile females/100 cells the other 85/100 cells. I say fertile because they all had progeny...now, getting to a consistent way of pulling pupa out, looking for the mites, counting, differentiating the progeny, tabulating... went very slow and I just about gave up. Gets hard on your eyes.

Now, getting to something you can do as a routine...and at the same time run a breeding/selection program that you adjust based on the results you gather, that is well above my capacity. I just wanted to learn to see these buggers in action...that was all. For now. 

As a side note, those two hives died going into the winter. Of course, loaded with mites. 

I am also curious how folks that say they test routinely for VSH do it...

Good luck everybody


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## adamf

> squarepeg wrote:
> "john, if i wanted to compare fertile to infertile mites in my colonies, and wanted to compare that measure with yours and others, how would i do it?"





> apis maximus wrote:
> "As a protocol, I tried to follow the one described by Rinderer and Kulincevic."



Just to reiterate the information:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?277652-VSH-Breeding#29

(Contains info on testing from earlier in this thread).


When we received our SARE grant, we intended to compare the Freeze Killed Brood Assay 
John and others use with the Alcohol Wash Assay, in the context of selection for varroa resistance. 
The way the research worked out we did not have enough resources to compare the two tests but we did 
show the value of the alcohol wash assay in a mite resistant breeding program and we demonstrate 
our take on how to perform it (there a a few ways to do it around the world). We have used this assay for many years and it 
has helped us to breed for productive bees while remaining treatment-free.

Link to that research:
www.vpqueenbees.com/awa




Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenebes.com


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## deknow

I would not have brought Adam's sare grant up in the context of this discussion, but since he brought it up........

I've read this report several times, and I don't understand what the grant went towards. You did an alcohol wash on 20 hives, 3 times throughout a single season.

What did the money pay for?
What was learned that we didn't already know?
Why does doing rather routine mite counts in a commercial breeding population/program rate getting a grant?
Was anything else done besides doing a total of 60 mite counts?
What does it cost to perform 60 alcohol washes and graph the results?
Were you not doing mite counts before running this grant?

Deknow


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## Daniel Y

DeKnow, Do you have any idea what research or studies cost? Do you realize that those that do the study get paid for their time? $20,000 woudl not pay for 6 months of my time. Much less the time of someone with a degree or otherwise qualified to conduct a study.

IN some cases the grant had to pay for the colonies that where studied in the first place.

You get such grants often by applying for them. And just like any other application process your application is compared to everyone elses and if you come out on top. that is what qualified you.

I understand you question this study or the cost of it. Where is your better study and who funded it at what price? I will take a conducted study over the none existent one.

A study at best provides only a small bit of data. that must then bee added to everything else we know.

I work at a place that in the last year spent 13.5 million dollars to study how a bridge breaks apart in an earthquake. and that is not counting the 30 some million they paid to build the building they built the bridge inside. they are currently building a second building so they can build a bigger bridge next time.

Truth is research is very expensive and I don't ever see beekeeping funding it on a serious level.


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## deknow

Daniel,
Please read Adam's report:

http://www.vpqueenbees.com/awa/FNE08-631_final.pdf

Note that the costs were about $50 total, plus time (his estimate of 1.75 hours/colony for the 3 tests seems a bit much....does it really take anywhere near 10 minutes to open a colony and find frames with active brood?)...but even if we take his numbers for the timing, that comes to a total of 35 hours of work (plus making a web page, a few photos and a graph).

What was done in those 35 hours with $50 worth of supplies? He did mite counts on his own colonies in a standard way that any number of those that go around and speak to beekeeping groups would tell you to sample mites. Nothing new was attempted. Nothing was compared to anything else. There was no evaluation of anything. All that appears to have been done is a bee breeder doing a few mite counts.

I am all for good research. I'm not sure this qualifies as research at all (good or bad).

What do you think was learned here?

Personally, I'd be embarrased to take $4347 as a SARE grant for this. $4347-$50(for supplies)=$4297. Take the 35 hours he has accounted for in the sampling, add another 35 hours to do the web page, photos and graph (probably closer to 10 hours, but let's work with 35), and you end up with Adam being paid over $60/hour to do standard mite samples of his own breeding stock (that I assume he was already doing mite counts on one way or another)...and comparing this method of doing mite samples to NOTHING.

I don't see value being created with over $4,000 in resources being spent. I do see a commercial breeder getting paid with a SARE grant to do exactly what he should already be doing (and probably was already doing).


deknow



deknow


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## Brandy

Wow, way to go deknow, I doubt that Adam would find much pleasure after that in helping the rest of us with any of "our" VSH questions. He's one of the VERY FEW that believes and is committed to this from the beginning. Now, with more time invested he would probably set up a different program. Maybe not, but good for him he got interested before "everyone" else jumped on this bandwagon!!


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## deknow

Doing mite counts in 2009 is hardly cutting edge. Note that the purpose was to compare alcohol washes with freeze testing.....but freeze testing was never done. The other purpose was to compare mite resistant lines with non resistant lines..this also was not done.
I've brought these issues up before, and I assume that Adam knows my position on this.....and brought it up anyways.

Deknow


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## deknow

Fortunately, pleasuring Adam is not my job: )

Deknow


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## Barry

What is your job?


----------



## Ramona

Well, I don't have a "job", in that no one gives me a paycheck. I have had many jobs, including flutemaker, webmaster, web content developer at a large NYC advertising agency, musician, office cleaner (that includes the toilets), bike mechanic, electronics repair technician, CAD technician, machinist, speech recognition systems customization and training (for hospitals, doctors, lawyers, judges, people with disabilities, college professors, etc), network systems administration (at a taxi company....there is a surprising amount of kluged together computer systems at an old cab company)....all that without any of the beekeeping stuff.

Ramona and i make the bulk of our living selling honey both retail at markets, and wholesale to larger stores. In the last few months, we've done a 7 day a week market in a tent in Downtown Boston throughout the month of December, 3 talks at MIT, running a bee school in Boston (both beginners and advanced), done a lot of store support (demos/tastings) for our wholesale accounts.

Right now I'm posting on Beesource. In a few minutes, I'll be printing and cutting tags for a large corporate Valentines Day gift order. This afternoon I'll be preparing outlines for talks coming up and doing some other writing. Tonight we have a board meeting for our county bee club. On Monday we sold a few books. and also met with another hotel that is interested in having bees on their roof (as I sign off now, Ramona and I are going to brainstorm about how we can approach that project).

No boss=No paycheck

No job. Always working.


deknow


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## deknow

...apologies that my previous post went out under Ramonas name/acount.



I'd also like to say that I very much like Adam, and support much/most of what he and Kelly are doing. We enjoyed visiting with them over coffee a few years ago (we were driving through the area, and Adam invited us over for coffee).

Obviously, I'm in support of the treatment free breeding program they are maintaining. Selection for survival without treatments is an element that I think is missing in MANY breeding programs...and I think the key. Only if we cull what nature would cull (or something really close to that ideal) will nature's mechanisms (genetic, microbial, epigenetic, ???) operate as they should.

I'm less convinced about the VSH stuff (as I've already stated). I think the SARE grant work was a complete waste of money. The assay's (freeze kill and alcohol wash) weren't compared. The relationship between the one performed assay and suitability for selection wasn't explored. The only data produced was a graph of 3 mite counts done on 20 hives. Anyone that counts mites has that data, and it didn't cost them over $4,000 to produce it. He didn't do the work that the grant specified:http://mysare.sare.org/MySare/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNE08-631&y=2008&t=2



> The farmer will compare mite-tolerant queen lines with a normal line to see if two tests (selection assays) do indeed indicate mite tolerance in potential breeding stock.



I like Adam...but I refuse to feel embarrassed to point this stuff out. Wherever the fault lies (the person giving the grant, the person taking the grant, the quality of the queens, the weather, etc)....it is certainly not mine for reading closely enough to notice.



deknow


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## adamf

deknow said:


> Daniel,
> Please read Adam's report:
> 
> http://www.vpqueenbees.com/awa/FNE08-631_final.pdf
> 
> Note that the costs were about $50 total, plus time (his estimate of 1.75 hours/colony for the 3 tests seems a bit much....does it really take anywhere near 10 minutes to open a colony and find frames with active brood?)...but even if we take his numbers for the timing, that comes to a total of 35 hours of work (plus making a web page, a few photos and a graph).
> 
> What was done in those 35 hours with $50 worth of supplies? He did mite counts on his own colonies in a standard way that any number of those that go around and speak to beekeeping groups would tell you to sample mites. Nothing new was attempted. Nothing was compared to anything else. There was no evaluation of anything. All that appears to have been done is a bee breeder doing a few mite counts.
> 
> I am all for good research. I'm not sure this qualifies as research at all (good or bad).
> 
> What do you think was learned here?
> 
> Personally, I'd be embarrased to take $4347 as a SARE grant for this. $4347-$50(for supplies)=$4297. Take the 35 hours he has accounted for in the sampling, add another 35 hours to do the web page, photos and graph (probably closer to 10 hours, but let's work with 35), and you end up with Adam being paid over $60/hour to do standard mite samples of his own breeding stock (that I assume he was already doing mite counts on one way or another)...and comparing this method of doing mite samples to NOTHING.
> 
> I don't see value being created with over $4,000 in resources being spent. I do see a commercial breeder getting paid with a SARE grant to do exactly what he should already be doing (and probably was already doing).



Funny how assumptions are relative. I'm sorry if you felt that the grant we received and performed 
according to our agreement with SARE was as you state:

"I don't see value being created with over $4,000 in resources being spent"


The SARE people were very happy with the results, actually. The main
expenses were for the bees and establishing the colonies. We were going to
use a randomized block design in two sites. The colonies we used needed to
be established...all of this is described in the grant report. The control
colonies did so poorly that we pretty much had to scrap the original
experiment, as stated in the report. We salvaged what we could and did the
Alcohol Wash Assay, as per the report and with SARE's approval.

The cost was mainly for time and travel. We had to get the colonies set up.
The experiment would not have been valid if we'd had used established
colonies. You can't get SARE grant money for equipment. Also, SARE pays you
after you perform the research. We came up with the money to do the
experiment. If SARE felt that we were not completing our part of the
arrangement, they would not have reimbursed us for the costs we estimated
and submitted.

However, your opinion of what we were granted, based on your knowledge of
what occurred is certainly valid. That's your right.

Since SARE at the level we were dealing with: "Farmer Grant" is used to
help farmer's with "on the farm research" to make their production more
sustainable, I feel that the research was totally successful. We learned how to conduct
standardized mite counts using the Alcohol Wash Assay over a season,
learned that the assay is both useful for selection and to keep track of
the mite population, and learned that our selection was leading to lower
phoretic mite counts in our bee population. This is a selection tool we
use as part of our breeding program.

I'm sorry that you feel the research we did wasn't valid or useful--we do
get quite steady stream of hits on the Alcohol Wash Assay info we put on
the internet so people are reading about the assay.


Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## ga.beeman

Deknow you are no where close to being like Adam. for one if i remember in an earlier post that you made the comment that you have never owned VSH bees. So how can you talk about them good or bad. I can tell you that since i have run VSH bees i have alot less winter dyeoff. My bees do have mites as well as everyone else. Thank goodness for Glenns,Adam(VP Queens),Bob, and all the smaller guys that are trying to move the VSH bees forward. if you will read ,these bees where released out to beekeepers so they could continue to improve on these bees. And that is what we are doing. Are these bees the silver bullet that some folks are looking for no. but they are alot better then some that i have had in the past. if you want things done your way than get some and do the testing and share with others and quit bashing the guys that are doing things the way they want to. Thanks to Adam, glenn,s and the other breeders that are working to together to improve VSH honeybees.


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## JBJ

Going back to the subject at hand. We can use two types of analysis for our observations that we use to make breeding decisions; qualitative and quantitative. We really need both to see the whole picture. I am confident that traits can be maintained by getting stock from people who have done the quantitative work and then maintained in the field under the appropriate selection pressure and qualitative field observations. We use both, however we are stepping up a bit more this year on the quantitative side.

Also from Harbo's web site:

"A most valuable feature of VSH is that bees will express a high level of mite resistance when a colony contains as little as 50% of the alleles for VSH. A simple way to produce such a colony is to raise daughter queens from a VSH breeder and allow the daughters to naturally mate. This is great news for queen producers. They can rear VSH queens, mate them to any drones, and those queens will produce colonies that require no chemical control for varroa. Another benefit is that beekeepers can have mite resistant colonies without destroying their existing bee population – which may be well adapted to a certain locale or have desirable beekeeping qualities."

This means there still should be plenty of benefit in F1 and F2 crosses, especially if the right drones are involved.


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## ptmerrill

Apis maximus how many hours did it take you to count and classify the mites from 100 plus cells?


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## camero7

John,

Are your hives treatment free? Seems like your web site doesn't support that. so why do you need to treat them if VSH works? I have used VSH type queens for about the last 4 years and still need to treat or lose my hives.


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## ga.beeman

Hey Cam, do you treat all your hives for mites.


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## apis maximus

@ptmerrill
The first go around, it took me about 4 hours. There were not that many mites and I was thinking I am missing them...You uncap, if the bee pupae is the right age and you see the mite(s) on her face then you've got something. But sometimes the mite(s) is not right under the cap so I took every pupae out and looked it over under the scope. Cell by cell, one pupae at the time. Slow...
On the second hive I started uncapping and kept uncapping until I had 100 that looked the right stage. Then, I pulled all of them out in a petri dish...bee pupae, mites and whatever else was in that cell. I did have a lighted otoscope handy and checked the empty cells just to see if I miss anything. If I did, I use a Q tip in a swirling motion in the cell, and looked the Q-tip under the scope. Most of the time, I would find the male that way.
Since everything looked crowded in the dish, I took a small glass shelf and dumped the petri dish contents on it. 
Placed the glass shelf under the scope ( scope has light under its glass stage so it worked great) and starting the observing/sorting and tabulating...This way took about 2 hours. 
On the fall check, had more mites/stages showing, using the second described technique, took about 3 hours.


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## frazzledfozzle

JBJ said:


> and those queens will produce colonies that require no chemical control for varroa..


Really? it's that simple ? and no treatments needed ever?


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## camero7

ga.beeman said:


> Hey Cam, do you treat all your hives for mites.


I treat all my production hives. I do not treat nucs.


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## Daniel Y

frazzledfozzle said:


> Really? it's that simple ? and no treatments needed ever?


I am not sure I see what has been so easy about breeding for VSH much less the discovery of the traits or the recognition that they are genetic. What exactly are you considering easy? Far more effort than the let the bees survive on their own method and with better results.

That the problem is serious or that the answer has not been easy to find does not mean the answer will be complex. Most things look simple once they have been solved.


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## Oldtimer

Precisely, it's not easy. Where Frazz and I live, bees at 50% VSH will perixh if not treated, kinda wondering why it works so well for some who posted here.


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## deknow

....has anyone "here" determined that they have bees that are 50% VSH?

I agree that the statement by Harbo doesn't seem to fit reality.

deknow


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## Brandy

Oldtimer, are you saying your VSH X VSH breeders daughters are not "sensitive" enough yet to leave untreated??


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## squarepeg

dean, have you been or are you considering measuring for mite resistance? (beyond survival that is)

i haven't been so far, but i can see the merit in it in regards to selecting and deselecting.

i'm not sure i'll have the time to uncap brood cells and measure mite fertility. i'll probably have to rely on overall observation and mite counts for now.

maybe after retirement or if i could get a grant........


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## Oldtimer

Brandy said:


> Oldtimer, are you saying your VSH X VSH breeders daughters are not "sensitive" enough yet to leave untreated??


We don't have 100% VSH bees, the best breeders are around 80%. If their daughters are open mated with all comers, yes, without treatment sooner or later they will perish.


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## Oldtimer

deknow said:


> I agree that the statement by Harbo doesn't seem to fit reality.
> 
> deknow


Which statement by Harbo?


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## tefer2

Post #113


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## ptmerrill

What measurable traits = the bee is 100 vsh?
% of infertile mites? What % = 100%vsh
Mite infested brood removal %? What % is needed to be %?
The breeder says the line is vsh therefore it is now 100% vsh?
If the breeder says my stock expresses qualities consistent with vsh that is not sexy for marketing but it is honest.


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## frazzledfozzle

frazzledfozzle said:


> Really? it's that simple ? and no treatments needed ever?


If colonys headed by VSH queens that are open mated produce bees that require no chemical control for varroa then wouldn't all beekeepers in America have these queens heading their colonies?


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## frazzledfozzle

Daniel Y said:


> I am not sure I see what has been so easy about breeding for VSH much less the discovery of the traits or the recognition that they are genetic. What exactly are you considering easy.


If someone is claiming that you can have a colony headed by an open mated VSH queen and not have to chemically control varroa then I would have thought it would now be easy for beekeepers to purchase those queens or queen cells install them in their hives and never have to treat for varroa.

I wasn't saying the process of getting to that stage was easy but now that the break through has been made we can all breathe a sigh of relief... or not


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## Oldtimer

Frazz you have a warped sense of humor LOL! 

PTMerrill, as I understand it, the method used in my country to put a number on VSH, is to uncap 400 cells and look for mite families. There will either be normal mite families, or interupted mite families / breeding attempts. The interupted ones are evidenced by a male egg or larvae plus mite feaceal material in the cell, but no mother mite or sisters. This is taken to be evidence that the bees uncapped the cell and let the foundress mite out before she could lay female eggs, and then re-capped the cell. If 20% of all cells with mites or evidence of mites are an interupted breeding attempt, the bee is classed as 20% VSH.

All this is basically just what I've been told. I have no personal experience with these bees worthy of mention.


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## Daniel Y

frazzledfozzle said:


> If colonys headed by VSH queens that are open mated produce bees that require no chemical control for varroa then wouldn't all beekeepers in America have these queens heading their colonies?


No, In fact very few would. I don't think the majority of beekeepers purchase queens at all. Of those that do many would be skeptical and not choose them. Of the remainder that are not skeptical only a percentage would care enough about VSH over other traits they desire such as honey production or pollination to make a buying decision for VSH. It is like saying that becasue the majority of people think that chocolate is one of the best candies around that only chocolate is sold. People do not always choose the best. people do not always even want the best.


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## Daniel Y

frazzledfozzle said:


> If someone is claiming that you can have a colony headed by an open mated VSH queen and not have to chemically control varroa then I would have thought it would now be easy for beekeepers to purchase those queens or queen cells install them in their hives and never have to treat for varroa.
> 
> I wasn't saying the process of getting to that stage was easy but now that the break through has been made we can all breathe a sigh of relief... or not


I am not sure I se anyone in this conversation saying that the answer has been found. I see people saying that they are working toward one possible answer. I say that just to be clear.

Now hypothetically once that answer is found. Will it be as simple as using that answer? Yes it will.


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## Oldtimer

Daniel Y said:


> I am not sure I se anyone in this conversation saying that the answer has been found.






JBJ said:


> from Harbo's web site:
> 
> This is great news for queen producers. They can rear VSH queens, mate them to any drones, and those queens will produce colonies that require no chemical control for varroa.


..


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## Daniel Y

Oldtimer, I suppose you can read that as a statement of current fact or one of future possibility. I interpret it as that latter given additional knowledge I have.


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## Oldtimer

Hmm sounds very secret squirrel! 

But hey my post was just saying there are people who believe they have the answer.


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## deknow

Daniel Y said:


> Oldtimer, I suppose you can read that as a statement of current fact or one of future possibility. I interpret it as that latter given additional knowledge I have.


...what additional knowledge is that? Taking the quote provided in its original context, it is nothing about future posibilities...these are claims by a breeder who ends the page in question with:
http://www.harbobeeco.com/vsh/


> Problem Solved Through Breeding
> A top priority of Harbo Bee Company was to solve the problem of poor brood production. This was not a common inbreeding condition but probably the result of poor brood care by worker bees and/or a susceptibility to European foulbrood. Since not all VSH colonies expressed this problem, we had enough variability to correct this situation with selective breeding. We now have full expression of the VSH trait in colonies that are also good brood and honey producers.


Note the past tense references to the problems ("was", "had")...but the problems are now solved, "We now have full expression of the VSH trait in colonies that are also good brood and honey producers".

With "full expression" achieved, it seems that the 50% VSH queens are only one graft away for any beekeeper that can obtain a VSH breeder queen. This is essentially marketing copy for the Harbo VSH queens...and I think it is far from demonstrated that grafting from one of his queens is all that needs to be done in order to eliminate mite treatments. At best, it is an overstated claim.

deknow


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## Whitetail

I've used a great deal of VSH F1 queens in my colonies with no treatments. I've not had any crash from mites to my knowledge. I don't graft exclusively from VSH breeders, I don't know that I would recommend that. My best queens were open mated F1's in drone yards headed by a nice diversity of colonies that thrive with no treatments. I think it would be safe for a portion of those colonies to be F1's from the previous years breeders. Maybe it's the way I manage, maybe it's my environmental conditions. Who knows. I do have mites, I just don't have colonies crashing from them.


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## frazzledfozzle

Whitetail how many hives so you have and how long have they been without treatment?
Do you split heavily during the season or leave as is?


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## deknow

Whitetail...I'm trying to unravel your post...

1. Are the VSH breeders you are getting "pure" or "100% expressing" VSH breeders?
2. You are grafting some from the VSH breeders, and grafting from some stock of unknown VSH expression.
3. Your best queens were open mated F1's (from the VSH queens or from all the queens you graft from?)
4. Your drone source is weighted towards F1's from your previous years efforts.

Even with some clarification on 1 above, it is hard to make a guess as to what level of VSH expression the bees posses by the time they are heading your production colonies....with VSH in the drone pool, it could be high. I don't think we know enough to know if your account supports Harbo's claims.

deknow


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## Whitetail

Fozz, I run a little over 100 colonies. This will be my fourth season treatment free, although I never treated on a consistent basis prior. 
Deknow, I'm not really concerned with my % of VSH expression. I only mentioned the trait has been added to my genetics in varying %'s. I do raise some of my queens from pure II'd VSH and Hygienic breeders.


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## Whitetail

Fozz, I do divide my non impressive colonies in the Spring to stock mating nucs. In the fall I often make two frame divides with new queens while the nectar flow is on.(feed them to four to six frames for winter) I've had good luck wintering those, and turning them into production colonies the following Spring.


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## squarepeg

whitetail, do you have an infestation rate high enough in the late summer/early fall that would cause you to bust the colony up for your late season two frame divides, even though that colony performed well production wise and does not show any outward sign of varroasis?


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## Whitetail

Squarepeg, No, I don't break them all down into two framers. I only take a two frame split out of each double deep hive I choose. I leave the old queen in the double if she's performing well. The wintered nucs with new fall queens are explosive in the Spring. I use them for expansion. I occasionally see some with a high varroa load, but if I see no viral issues, and they appear healthy by all other measures, I let them ride. The mite levels naturally drop when they reduce, or stop brood rearing.


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## squarepeg

understood whitetail. your approach makes a lot of sense to me, and i really appreciate all of your replies.

how would you manage the colony that is having viral issues?


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## Whitetail

Very welcome. If I see a hive displaying signs of parasitic mite syndrome(withered wings or K wing) I kill the queen and replace her.


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## squarepeg

excellent, thanks again!


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## ga.beeman

hey whitetail thanks for your replys. I think you understand what is trying to be done with the VSH bees. I loose hives each year but far less then i use too. if we continue to select from VSH stock and continue to raise from these we will continue to improve these. They are not a silver bullet but we are headed in the right direction


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## dleemc1

that is what i am doing i am 63 years old and have had bees since i was 13 teen or 14teen in the past i have got bees from all over the states- texas hawi george. now i just have those good hearty feral mutts, and they are the best bees i have ever had. i keep telling myself just breed what you got danny


Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Yep. That's the direction I am heading as well. I will start with the best I can find and hope to use them to develop some gals who do well right here. LOL I have been driving myself a bit batty over this, but now that I've had some time to cogitate a bit, that is the direction I am heading, too.
> 
> And I really like that phrase "good hearty feral mutts"! That sums it up perfectly.
> 
> 
> 
> Rusty


----------



## JBJ

camero7 said:


> John,
> 
> Are your hives treatment free? Seems like your web site doesn't support that. so why do you need to treat them if VSH works? I have used VSH type queens for about the last 4 years and still need to treat or lose my hives.


Thanks for pointing that out. That is 13 year old information on that particular page. Need to do some updating as soon as we are done putting in the almonds. We are at a state now where if we find a hive in trouble with mites (and yes we still sometimes do) the protocol is to clean them up with essential oils and requeen with a better prospect. Varying degrees of heritability with mite coping traits is a real challenge, but I am confident that demonstrable progress can and has been been made. We do find bullet proof queens regularly, however reproducing them in a true breeding way is a challenge and this is why we are adding more isolated mating yards and two II stations to the operation. That being said we often see the best breeders make it to their third year in a commercial setting before they start to unravel.


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## apis maximus

JBJ said:


> We do find bullet proof queens regularly, however reproducing them in a true breeding way is a challenge and this is why we are adding more isolated mating yards and two II stations to the operation. That being said we often see the best breeders make it to their third year in a commercial setting before they start to unravel.


Would those "best breeders that make it to the third year" be obtained using both II, and isolated mating yards ? Or are you talking just about II breeders?
When you say they start to unravel, you mean the hive gets taken over by the mites or that the queen's laying performance diminishes?

Thanks.


----------



## winevines

adamf said:


> Funny how assumptions are relative. I'm sorry if you felt that the grant we received and performed according to our agreement with SARE was as you state:
> 
> Since SARE at the level we were dealing with: "Farmer Grant" is used to
> help farmer's with "on the farm research" to make their production more
> sustainable, I feel that the research was totally successful. We learned how to conduct
> standardized mite counts using the Alcohol Wash Assay over a season,
> learned that the assay is both useful for selection and to keep track of
> the mite population, and learned that our selection was leading to lower
> phoretic mite counts in I'm sorry that you feel the research we did wasn't valid or useful--we do
> get quite steady stream of hits on the Alcohol Wash Assay info we put on
> the internet so people are reading about the assay.
> 
> Adam Finkelstein
> www.vpqueenbees.com


Wow- years later and we still have to defend our use of one of the only teeny tiny funding sources for Beekeepers. Adam i don't think you have any need to apologize. What was done was not in fact what most Beekeepers do and even if they do use the technique certainly for the most part is not with the same scientific rigor that VP queen bees employed to get some meaningful results. How many of you take the time to count the bees in your sample for example? And all those hits on the study tells me that the work continues to be useful and educate people. 

Having been the victim of some vitriolic attacks myself on a very similar subject I think some people just don't believe that this money should be available at all or used in this way. Seems like there is this perspective that one should just do this as a matter of routine on your own time and own dime. As adam says, that is your choice and you have a right to have his view. I would like to implore you to attempt to widen your view. in your constant attack on what feels like all things SARE (and gee you haven't even explored the world of what crop specialty money is being used for in beekeeping yet) i think you don't allow yourself to the big picture - not only in what the expenses actually were but the parts that are useful, continue to be useful and educational due to SARE.s Internet presence, etc. incentivizing through small amounts of money helps make that possible.


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## Daniel Y

Karla, It is always easy for those that don't require they actually accomplish anything. I appreciate the work and have a little better than average insight as to what effort it takes. And yes I agree it is a tiny amount being applied.


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## deknow

Interesting..
http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/64133000/PDFFiles/490-Danka--Expression of varroa.pdf


> A practical interpretation of these data for beekeepers
> is that the average expression of hygiene in commercial
> VSH production queens is good. However,
> there is substantial variability of hygiene expressed
> both between commercial sources and within colonies
> from queens supplied by each source. This variability
> means that beekeepers should be vigilant in monitoring
> mite levels so that additional mite control activities
> can be undertaken if needed. Breeders of VSH should
> recognize that mite resistance in production queens
> probably could be improved if colonies with VSH
> drones were supplied when mating VSH production
> queens. Additionally, simpler techniques to determine
> the level of VSH in colonies would be a valuable tool
> to assist with selection and improvement.


----------



## deknow

Cost/Benefit is always worth looking at...be it a genetic trait (VSH), a class (Penn State Bee School), a treatment (Fumidil), or research (SARE or otherwise).



> I think some people just don't believe that this money should be available at all or used in this way.


I'm all for spending money on research....but the cost/benefit should always be subject to scrutiny if public money is used. Especially when new ground is not being covered (queen introduction, mite counting, queen rearing, and nuc colonies are well understood subjects commonly used by beekeepers of all scales, not new untested ideas), one should consider what one would pay someone to do the work.



> and gee you haven't even explored the world of what crop specialty money is being used for in beekeeping yet


I read a lot of research regarding bees and beekeeping. Some of it is very good, some of it is very bad. The funding source, the scale, and reputation of the one doing the work does not seem to correlate with the quality of the work, the cost/benefit, or the overall benefit.


deknow


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## camero7

> However, there is substantial variability of hygiene expressed both between commercial sources and within colonies
> from queens supplied by each source.


I wish they would identify the different commercial sources.


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## deknow

If you read a bit more of the study, you will see that even the Glenn queens didn't display the same "mite infertility" as the USDA lines. I think this paper pretty much says that you don't know what you are getting, unless you get it directly from the USDA.

deknow


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## camero7

True, but Glenn queens were better than most commercials. Some of the commercials would be beneficial in the average set-up, while others would be almost useless. It aggravates me that they use our money to do these papers but won't id the sources of the queens. this is not the first time I've seen this.


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## Oldtimer

We have the same problem with the VSH bees we have produced in my country, variability. Which is interesting, considering the base stock we began using to produce the VSH bees is likely different to that used in the US. An 80% VSH queen can be mated to an 80% VSH drone, but the daughter queens can be anything from 80% down to 20%. Our researchers have concluded that there cannot just be one gene involved in VSH, but a combination that all has to come together.

None the less, this does not mean we should just give up. My belief is we should continue to select from the best, concentrating the useful genes in the general bee population.

From the same study mentioned by DeKnow
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?277652-VSH-Breeding/page8

"Genetic effects of queen type affected the change
in infestation of brood by V. destructor (Table 1).
Colonies of ARS VSH and Glenn Apiaries VSH reduced
infestation by 76 and 64%, respectively. Infestation
was reduced an average of 44% by VSH production
colonies (six sources combined) and 7% by
control colonies".

So there is considerable variability in mite reduction in these colonies, and in that respect, it could be claimed that the purchaser "does not know what they are getting". However the amount of reduction is quite clearly useful, especially if someone was wishing to attempt treatment free beekeeping, or keep treating but use less.

In my country, the researchers also monitored (but did not select for) honey production, and have discovered no significant difference in honey production between our high VSH bees, and non VSH bees. So, one could say about using these bees, "what's to lose?"
Although I have been told that with the US VSH bees it is thought there is a difference, but have not seen any figures.


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## JBJ

apis maximus said:


> Would those "best breeders that make it to the third year" be obtained using both II, and isolated mating yards ? Or are you talking just about II breeders?
> When you say they start to unravel, you mean the hive gets taken over by the mites or that the queen's laying performance diminishes?
> 
> Thanks.


Those would be naturally mated queens and some come from isolated yards, and occasionally some do come from our more open mated yards. This will be the first year we will aggressively pursue II. By unravel I mean the supercedure impulse kicks in and laying rate begins to drop off. I would also not be surprised to see a higher mite to bee ratio as laying rate slows in the older queens. I have never had a purchased II breeder queen last more than a year and most want to supercede in the first 6 months... still plenty of time to make lots of daughters.


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## wildbranch2007

from a post on bee-l about vsh

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=285812


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## TWall

Mike,

Very interesting study.

The F1 VSH removed 51% of varroa infested larvae as compared to 66% for VSH.

In a practical sense I wonder how this relates. For instance, someonewho sells VSH queens grafted from VSH breeders. The area has a lot of VSH drones. I wonder how much VSH behavior you would get by raising queens from those F1's?

Tom


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## mike bispham

deknow said:


> Survival, Productivity, Temperament.


Dean, I'm trying here to summarise your position.

It seems to me that you advocate mimicking the natural selection model, in which productivity under natural (unaided) conditions is the measure of success/ideal assay. (You add in temperament as a secondary and optional feature)

This is great (by me). However it presents difficulties to established apiaries wishing to move away from treatment based regimes while maintaining the productivity and or population numbers that pay their costs. They can't make 'survivability' assays - its too costly.

It is this problem that the breeders are primarily trying to solve. 

Or perhaps, there are a range of problems seeking solutions. 

I think you are right to say that selecting for a single (if compound) trait (vhs) risks lowering the frequency of competing traits (while selection for survivability and productivity [SSP] doesn't); and that supplies a reason to be cautious. (At least for some - if constant importation of 'vhs' queens solves a commercial problem that's fine) 

Are you saying that SSP provides the best breeding approach for any and all breeders, and that the resultant stock will be suitable for all (non-treatment) purposes?

And at the same time, agreeing that the best breeding approach (SSP) is not a suitable in-house way to tackle the problem of shifting an established treating apiary to non-treatment?

Meanwhile, you're also offering a critique of the accuracy of vhs claims.

I'm trying to create a sort of flow-chart of your reasoning here. It seems to me there are top-level and secondary arguments in play, and it isn't quite clear to me which are which in your mind.

Mike (UK)


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## Dominic

mike bispham said:


> Dean, I'm trying here to summarise your position.
> This is great (by me). However it presents difficulties to established apiaries wishing to move away from treatment based regimes while maintaining the productivity and or population numbers that pay their costs. They can't make 'survivability' assays - its too costly.
> Mike (UK)


Which, in my mind, is why one 100-hive breeding operation is better than 10 smaller operations.

Someone who makes a living off breeding can afford productivity losses due to stock replacement, and he can charge more for his genetics to compensate. Not to mention that "the best of 10" is not statistically likely to be as good as "the best of 100".

I know that's how I run, at least. Survivability is very important to me, because we have harsh winter conditions. So is my target a 5% winter mortality rate? No. That implies giving ideal wintering conditions. If I want my stock to have decent survival rates in the hand of beginners, who represent a fair share of my clients, then I must not give my bees better wintering conditions than many beginners do. Survival of the fittest only kicks in when a selection pressure is applied. I do skip the first month of bee sales to recover from my losses, though.


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## adamf

deknow said:


> I've noticed the number of threads with VSH in the title, so I thought I would ask this question, as I've been wondering about this for a while.
> 
> I've read the postings over on the VSH Breeders website/forum, and I can't tell if (outside the formal USDA program) anyone is actually testing for VSH.
> 
> We know that HYG and VSH will not persist in the population unless they are constantly selected for generation after generation.
> 
> ...so how are breeders (that are not just propagating USDA stock) qualifying their bees as VSH? How are they able to provide VSH behavior without testing? How many generations have these stocks gone since they have been properly evaluated for VSH?
> 
> There is certainly less of a consensus about what constitutes a valid VSH test than there is for HYG...but if someone is going to claim that their bees are HYG or VSH, it seems there should be something observable that is being evaluated?
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> deknow



I was wondering when you'd post about this! 


We now perform two tests in our breeding program that select for VSH in addition to other economic traits. We use a large population and have an initial two-year selection cycle.

No colony is treated for mites in our operation. We're going on our 16th year without mite treatment. Our bees our gentle, productive and have done well for us. Our customers

like them too! Good VSH expression is one of _many_ qualities good stock should have.


There seems to be an interest to make a VSH selection program more organized and cooperative at some point. Measuring VSH expression along with other good qualities

constitutes a breeding program. When one selects in a program, the chances of finding suitable breeding candidates is greater when one has a larger population. The "numbers game" again.

A group working together would achieve this more readily by having a _greater _collective population to select from. Still, finding a group of potential bee breeders who can readily make queens over the season and keep good records

has not been simple. Performing the non-reproductive VSH test: http://www.extension.org/pages/30984/selecting-for-varroa-sensitive-hygiene#.VHhy7kSweJs as well, has been a challenge.



You are correct that there are many claims for VSH expressing stock now. 

We've found that this rubric works well when advising people on queen producers and queen strains:


*"Follow the consistently good producer who consistently has good queens/bees."*


Year in, year out, the outfits that have good stock will always do well for their customers.


VSH expression will exist in a population where both sides of the cross carry the heredity for the behavior. If the breeding population

does not have significantly high levels of VSH expression, the queens mated in that area will have less and less VSH, and less chance for mite resistance.

When curious about a strain's VSH expression, ask a queen producer for the history of their breeding program and ask if they will provide references.


Cheers,

Adam
http://vpqueenebees.com


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## jim lyon

Nice post Adam. I got a few queens from Adam and Kelly a couple years ago and am really pleased with them. One in particular I am watching like a hawk. Made a huge crop of honey and came into the winter just as strong. I'm planning on it being the star of my breeding operation this coming spring.


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## deknow

adamf said:


> I was wondering when you'd post about this!


Hi Adam....I didn't post about this again...the post you are quoting is the one I posted almost 2 years ago.




> We now perform two tests in our breeding program that select for VSH in addition to other economic traits.


I'd be interested in 2 things:
1. What are the tests?
2. When you tested your existing breeding population, did the tests mirror your assumptions as to the amount of expression in various populations?



> VSH expression will exist in a population where both sides of the cross carry the heredity for the behavior.


I don't think statments like this help with general understanding (which is my goal). VSH behavior is not 'present' or 'not present'....it is the extent of the expression that counts. It would be like trying to classify humans as either having height or not having height...in fact the question is 'how tall'.




> ...does not have significantly high levels of VSH expression, the queens mated in that area will have less and less VSH, and less chance for mite resistance.


Certainly they have 'less chance for bite resistance THROUGH THE VSH MECHANISM, and (in the scenereos i laid out on the first page of this discussion) by the time you have selected for VSH to produce a strong expression you have probably selected against other mite resistant traits...the ones the bees actually use when no one is selecting for VSH.



> When curious about a strain's VSH expression, ask a queen producer for the history of their breeding program and ask if they will provide references.


I'd give that advice to anyone curious about the substance and quality of a breeding program (ask history and ask for references). I don't think these will help very much in determining the VSH expression of a stock. The history (unless it is all first generation II USDA VSH breeder stock) doesn't tell you much about the VSH expression, and unless the references are doing a VSH assay on the colonies, they can't really offer any insight as to the extent of VSH expression.

I'm all for good queens from good operations with good reputations for producing good queens. In the end, I don't think VSH has much to do with it, and certainly the way it is so often used (to produce a mite resistant localized line by crossing VSH breeders with local stock) doesn't accomplish lasting results....unless VSH stock is constantly brought in....in which case the only real breeding that is happening is from the VSH supplier, and there is no lasting local progress to be made.

deknow


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## adamf

deknow said:


> Hi Adam....I didn't post about this again...the post you are quoting is the one I posted almost 2 years ago.
> 
> 
> I'd be interested in 2 things:
> 1. What are the tests?
> 2. When you tested your existing breeding population, did the tests mirror your assumptions as to the amount of expression in various populations?


Oh okay, not enough coffee yet... 

We perform Alcohol Wash test and the Non-Reproductive VSH test on some candidates. Seasonal performance results are considered as well. We make our breeding decisions based on some of this data.

If we test strains of bees here, under our non mite-treatment management, the candidates that are not from VSH expressing colonies barely make it through their first season. These results in addition to our test data

demonstrate that there is a threshold level of VSH expression that needs to be maintained for colonies to survive. We don't usually quantify "*%VSH*" as that metric; although helpful in thinking about VSH vs Non-VSH

it is not accurate when thinking about the degree of expression. More useful are the survival and performance results, we select those that are great candidates overall.




deknow said:


> I don't think statments like this help with general understanding (which is my goal). VSH behavior is not 'present' or 'not present'....it is the extent of the expression that counts. It would be like trying to classify humans as either having height or not having height...in fact the question is 'how tall'.



Hum. Maybe. The literature describes potential VSH expressions (phenotypes) based on _proposed_ genotypes. Once the molecular marker work is done and tested, it will be much simpler to select for high-expression breeding candidates.

This will need to be used wisely, as with any tool that _aides,_ but does not substitute for a comprehensive evaluation of breeding candidates.




deknow said:


> I'd give that advice to anyone curious about the substance and quality of a breeding program (ask history and ask for references). I don't think these will help very much in determining the VSH expression of a stock. The history (unless it is all first generation II USDA VSH breeder stock) doesn't tell you much about the VSH expression, and unless the references are doing a VSH assay on the colonies, they can't really offer any insight as to the extent of VSH expression.



VSH expression is found in ALL populations of _Apis mellifera_. How one selects for it and then combines it with other desirable expressions is what a breeder, breeding for mite resistance, does. 

If a queen producer is marketing "VSH Expression" as a benefit, determining how their breeding program and results have been, is a good selection tool for evaluating them. *We both know that barely anybody tests for VSH behavior, as of 

right now. *

Hopefully, this will change soon!




deknow said:


> I'm all for good queens from good operations with good reputations for producing good queens. In the end, I don't think VSH has much to do with it, and certainly the way it is so often used (to produce a mite resistant localized line by crossing VSH breeders with local stock) doesn't accomplish lasting results....unless VSH stock is constantly brought in....in which case the only real breeding that is happening is from the VSH supplier, and there is no lasting local progress to be made.
> 
> deknow


You may think whatever you like!  Local populations may be selected for higher VSH expression over time. Controlling matings is the management area where one may see the ongoing benefits of VSH expression incorporated. 

Bee breeding has always been a challenge because of how honey bees mate, in the air, with drones from more then one colony. Isolated matings and artificial insemination overcome this challenge. Managing this, has been a goal for any bee 

breeder throughout bee breeding history.


Using VSH expression as one component in our breeding program, has helped us to remain treatment-free. We're very grateful to all the people at the USDA who were involved in the discovery and development of VSH for bee breeding!

Adam
http://vpqueenbees.com


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## JSL

adamf said:


> We don't usually quantify "*%VSH*" as that metric; although helpful in thinking about VSH vs Non-VSH it is not accurate when thinking about the degree of expression. More useful are the survival and performance results, we select those that are great candidates overall. Hum. Maybe. The literature describes potential VSH expressions (phenotypes) based on _proposed_ genotypes. Once the molecular marker work is done and tested, it will be much simpler to select for high-expression breeding candidates.


Adam,

I am confused by this statement... If you are advertising based on a genetic characteristic, why would you not select for it? It seems the only way to select for it at this time, would be to measure "%VSH" expression or some similar definition. Since the marker work is not ready yet and there are environmental interactions with the expression of behavioral traits, I would think you would have to rely on measuring the phenotypic expression, at least to some degree.

I do not wish to speak for deknow, but I think that is basis of his question.

Joe


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## adamf

JSL said:


> Adam,
> 
> I am confused by this statement... If you are advertising based on a genetic characteristic, why would you not select for it? It seems the only way to select for it at this time, would be to measure "%VSH" expression or some similar definition. Since the marker work is not ready yet and there are environmental interactions with the expression of behavioral traits, I would think you would have to rely on measuring the phenotypic expression, at least to some degree.
> 
> I do not wish to speak for deknow, but I think that is basis of his question.
> 
> Joe


Hi Joe,

We *do* select for VSH behavior. We use two specific tests, and we use gross selection: we choose our breeders from breeding candidates that perform well without any mite treatments. 

The statement: *"% of VSH expression"* is a misnomer and was used originally to describe how close to high VSH expression colonies were estimated to be after crossing. As the genetic mechanics of VSH expression is elucidated

I'm sure there will be several phenotypes that express VSH that are genotypically different. A breeder's selection however, would still be on the overall colony health and performance of the candidate.


Screening for the presence of VSH behavior is what you're describing I think. Certainly that can be selected for and given a value. I'd give it a binary value though: ex: _expresses VSH_ or _doesn't express VSH_, where there is a cut-off for minimum 

score, rather then as a "*%VSH Expression*".



Is this any less confusing?

Adam
http://vpqueenbees.com


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