# Can you write off Bee loses from the winter



## MaggieShields (Jun 21, 2009)

I'm trying to help my father do taxes and was wondering if he could write off his bees loses from Winter. What would he need to do this?


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## NCSUbeeKEEPER (Feb 28, 2011)

*Re: Can you write of Bee loses from the winter*

Beekeeping loses can only be written off against beekeeping revenues if he is just a hobby apiarist. Since most people don't claim beekeeping revenues on their taxes this is pretty useless. 

If his expenses exceed his revenues he can only claim a loss if his beekeeping operation is a registered business, in which case he would report the loss on form Schedule C.


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## MaggieShields (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: Can you write of Bee loses from the winter*

No he lost about 120 hives, how do you use it as a write off. How do we know how much to write off. If you lost 120 hives, how much would that be? My Dad saying it's 130.00 per hive, but I'm not sure if he really knows. Please help me. Thanks Maggie


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Re: Can you write of Bee loses from the winter*

According to my CPA, there is nothing there to write off. You can write off your cash expenses, but not your opinion of what something was worth that you lost.

Please refrain from asking me how I know that.


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## MaggieShields (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: Can you write of Bee loses from the winter*

Tom, what kind of cash expenses are you talking about?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Can you write of Bee loses from the winter*

Withdrawn


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## NCSUbeeKEEPER (Feb 28, 2011)

*Re: Can you write of Bee loses from the winter*

I would advise you to consult a tax professional to assess your specific situation.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

*Re: Can you write of Bee loses from the winter*

Dad is trying to write off $15,600 as losses. I'm no accountant but to me, what that adds up to is Dad needs to talk to an accountant, not beekeepers on a forum. 

His accountant will appear with him when he gets audited. (Not sure who from this crew would go with him.)

Wayne


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## MaggieShields (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: Can you write of Bee loses from the winter*

He is planning on going to a CPA, just wanted to know ahead of time. Someone told him he might be able to write them off, but I read otherwise on this forum. I guess his CPA will tell him for sure.


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## MaggieShields (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: Can you write of Bee loses from the winter*

HI WaynesGarden

No, he's not trying to write it off, we are just wondering if he can. I wasn't sure so I thought I'd ask you guys before we go to the CPA. Oh, went it comes to Audits my father is no stanger. Thanks why I'm her to help him from now on. But, Thank you Wayne.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

*Re: Can you write of Bee loses from the winter*

Ok...if he has income from his bees then he can write off some parts of it but it is all a little iffy non the less. For instance, if he bought a queen or a package and it dies during the season then he can take that loss but bee careful, you need good detailed records, receipts, etc. Like Tom stated, you have to have documentation. If you raise your own queens and do your own splits, well you are out of luck as there is no cash expenses related to the actual bees. (feed, treatments, fuel, etc. yes) Personally, I don't do this as it will just bring you to the attention of the IRS and trust me they are looking more and more for reasons to audit since the govt. needs more $$.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Can you write of Bee loses from the winter*



MaggieShields said:


> No he lost about 120 hives, how do you use it as a write off.


Maggie, just to be picky and make sure we are talking about the same thing, he didn't loose the hives, did he? The colony in those hives died, right? He still has the hives.

What can be written off, on a Schedule F : Profit or Loss from Farming Form, is the cost of package bees or queens purchased. Thery are considered Livestock.

If your Father doesn't fill out a Schedule F I don't know how he can claim a loss. If it isn't a Business for him, it is considered a Hobby.

Talk to an Accountant who knows something about Farming.


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## wdcrkapry205 (Feb 11, 2010)

*Re: Can you write of Bee loses from the winter*

If your father is selling honey you better believe the govt. wants to know about it, and with 120 hives I sure hope at one point he had some for sale. If a cattle farmer looses 120 brood cows over the winter can he claim a lose for that? For his sake I certainly hope so, but I really don't know. I agree with Sqkcrk, I would certainly try. That is if you have been reporting your honey sales.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Can you write of Bee loses from the winter*

I'll bet a cattle farmer can't write off dead cattle. Not ones that died on his farm from diseases or pests. Besides, aren't cattle supposed to die, in trhe end?  All the other costs, I imagine, are deductible.

I am not an Accountant. Get ye to an Accountant.


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## MSbeekeeper (Feb 18, 2009)

I farm tomatoes and I can not claim tomatoes that go south. The reason being is I already claimed the cost of production so I have already claimed the loss. So if your dad bought equipment, feed, chemicals, queens, foundation, woodenware he can claim that as an expense on a schedule F. Since that could happen there is no value to the bees because the cost has already been deducted. Basically no double dipping. But again like what has been stated before, it is always best to consult a tax pro.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

I am not an accountant either.... and I agree with Sqkcrk. He has already deducted the expense of the packages (nucs... whatever) on his schedule F. If they are bees from "Increase". then he has already deducted the expenses to raise them. No deduction for dead bees.... just MHO.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

If it were me...

He claimed the cost of the bees and equipment when he bought them, yes? I think the equipment can be depreciated, but not the bees. If he lost the bees, the only thing he can claim would be the replacement cost of the bees...if he actually spent the money.

So, buy replacement bees and claim that amount. If he didn't spend the money in 2010, he can't claim the cost on his 2010 return. If he spends the money now, he claims it on his 2011 return.


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## wdcrkapry205 (Feb 11, 2010)

I'm not thru beating the dead cattle yet, and yes I know this is slightly getting t: but is there not a cattle or dairy farmer out there that can tell us if you can write off dead cows?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Maybe he wants to look into insurance on his colonies?
I forgot the depreciation of the hives. That's right Mike.


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## Desert Viking Ranch (Mar 1, 2011)

Here are the guidelines I use on the ranch when filing our Schedule F:

According to the IRS, livestock purchased for draft, breeding, or dairy purposes can be depreciated only if they are not kept in an inventory account. Livestock you raise usually has no depreciable basis because the costs of raising them are deducted and not added to their basis.

When depreciation begins:

Depreciation for livestock begins when the livestock reaches the age of maturity (not necessarily date of sale). If you acquire immature livestock for draft, dairy, or breeding purposes, your depreciation begins when the livestock reach the age when they can be worked, milked, or bred. When this occurs, your basis for depreciation is your initial cost for the immature livestock.

When depreciation ends:

You stop depreciating property (livestock) when you have fully recovered your cost or other basis. This happens when your allowed or allowable depreciation deductions equal your cost or investment in the property (livestock).


In short, if you purchased the bees from somewhere this year and planned on selling them maybe there is a chance. I have not done enough research yet to figure out all the ins and outs of taxes as this is my first year as a beek, Ill be ready next year however to field these questions with some sort of confidence :thumbsup:

As most others have stated, talk to an accountant. It sounds as if you are assuming calculated losses which doesn't make a difference to the IRS unless those losses can match to income/taxes paid in the same year (you can only get back what you pay in taxes regardless of your losses).


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

If he claims bees as his assets, then he can fully depreciate them when he looses them. But I bet he treats them as simple expense, thus he writes off his purchase price the moment he buys them, kind of like hives, sugar, feeders etc.

His loses sort of come in the form of income that he cannot realize. So he bought the nucs for $120 but they all died so he did not make any honey and could not sell any honey. So he has -$120 net income. If the bees did not die, then he'd maybe have $300 worth of honey sales. In that case he'd have net income of $180 on which he'd pay taxes in schedule C. 

On the side note, you can expense for tax purposes most all of your assets the year you buy them. Why anyone would care to depreciate them over several years and add hassle to their life is something i do not know. If you have another job, losses from bee business will simply decrease your tax liability from that job's income.

You are trying to write off possible income. That simply does not happen with IRS. It can be done with insurance claims, but not with IRS.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

As a landlord, I cannot write off unrealized income when my house sits empty. It is simply income I did not make. 

If a cow dies, you cannot deduct the cost of the cow, if you have already deducted the cost of the cow when purchased. 

When a piece of furniture breaks at my store, I am out the cost of that piece of furniture, or rather the income from sale of it. The COST of the item is expensed at time of purchase. 

In an ice storm on a tree farm, ruined trees are simply ruined trees. No deductions for ruined trees. 

Same with bees. Sorta depends on when you bought them relative to the tax year. The IRS doesn't care about income you almost made, but by the same token, they don't tax you on potential income eiher. (give them time!  And the IRS never, ever allows double dipping. You can, however, fully expense any remaining undepreciated cost on a depreciable item that goes out of service.


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## bwhitecpa (Jul 30, 2008)

Casualty Loss. Form 4684, page 2, section B.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

He didn't actually lose the money so nothing to write off. If he buys replacement bees that's real money he can claim it. If he makes less income next year because of it he'll pay less tax because of it.

He may be claiming annual depreciation on equipment so if any of that was damaged as a consequence the remaining book value could be claimed. But the actual bees in a hive do not normally have a book value.

Other than that, so far, no cost in dollars, no write off.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Perhaps it should be looked at from another angle. The IRS is giving you a break (did I really just state that?) by allowing you to take a one year write off on a bee purchase and not making you amortize it over a longer time. I believe that a purchase of a stock cow would require you to put it on a depreciation schedule over the expected calving life of the animal. In this scenario, of course, the earlier death of the animal would allow you to complete the write off.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

But what is the "expected" life of a colony of bees?

I see no credible way to account for dead colonies of bees. If writing off dead colonies were allowed there would be alot more dead colonies each year. Thhe only way I can see to account for dead colonies is w/ the receipt of purchase of packages or nucs and queens.


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## bwhitecpa (Jul 30, 2008)

Business Casualty Loss: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p584b.pdf

Basis of Assets: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p551.pdf

I'm not trying to solicit business nor do I know the entire facts and circumstances regarding your situation NOR am I rendering an opinion as to how this should be treated. This is merely guidance as to how I would approach the research of the matter.

I just know the beekeeper in this siuation sustained a substantial economic loss, and I would explore every venue before dishing out a verdict on whether you can claim an income tax benefit on the loss of the hives. Are the hives lost a business expense? I would venture to say "no." Was it a casualty loss? "Maybe."

Maybe request a Determination Letter from the IRS would clarify for us?

Ok, back to billable work!


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Beekeeping is no differient than any other business that you may invest money in.

If he went into beekeeping to make a profit, and now intends to quit then yes he can deduct everything that he spent.

If he intends to stay in the business then he might want to set up his investment on depreciation. Yearly depreciation may be taken as an expense up to a set amount that changes almost yearly.

Still if he is staying in the business he can deduct the expense of replacing the bees that he lost.

The only catch is that he must show a profit every 3-5 years, I'm not sure about the time frame this current tax year.

The other good thing is if he reinvests every year the profits from the past year he never has to hypothetically pay taxes on a profit.

Don't believe any thing else, and if your tax accountant tells you any differient go to one that knows how to file farm/business forms.

If he's in it just for fun then he needs to forget it. But with 20+ hives it surely is a business.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I saw a post about writing off a dead cow.

If you purchased the cow yes you can write off the cost of purchase minus what you may have depreciated her.

If you raised her no because you have already deducted the cost of raising her, or should have at least.

Tax School Closed!!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

20 hives does not a Business make.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

>>>The only catch is that he must show a profit every 3-5 years, I'm not sure about the time frame this current tax year.


The only catch is that you have to show that you are actively TRYING TO MAKE PROFIT. Amazon.com lost money for 10 years, nooone questions that they are business. That "profit year" test is a common misconception. Most of the farms that have a little extra money can afford to buy more equipment, so they will be showing loss or breakeven on many occasions.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> 20 hives does not a Business make.


Respectfully, I disagree. Point being, If he makes $1000.00 profit off of those 20 hives and he gets audited, the IRS will check his bank account and he WILL pay taxes on those PROFITS. It does happen. One of the first things the IRS looks for is deposits out of the ordinary.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

At what point would it become a bus? 20 hives with associated equipment would easily add up to several thousand dollars. Everyone has to start with something. It would be hard for a new beek to buy a couple hundred hives to start with. You have to see if you can even keep bees alive before you grow.


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## Mike Snodgrass (Mar 11, 2010)

I just found out i cant write off beekeeping expenditures from last year as well!!! I didnt sell a dimes worth of honey last year and i wont this year either!!!!!!


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

It's been a while since I studied up on tax stuff, but what makes something a business is often "intent." I decide to go into a beekeeping business (try to earn $$ from my efforts), so I jump thru the hoops, get my license from the city, register my name, etc. Whether I make a profit is often irrelevant, but of course the IRS will stare closely at you if you file year after year showing loss after loss. A truck farmer from Slarita Farms selling potatoes off his truck or at the local farmers market, is indeed in a business, according to the IRS, even though it may seem like "small potatoes" to Green Giant. And many hobbies do transition into businesses. You can't keep a hobby a hobby forever, if it makes a certain amount of money regularly. Can't remember the rules, but it's pretty clear if you just visit IRS.gov.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Mike Snodgrass said:


> I just found out i cant write off beekeeping expenditures from last year as well!!! I didnt sell a dimes worth of honey last year and i wont this year either!!!!!!


I would strongly suggest you find another tax preparer. Sounds like something H&R Block and other national preparers will tell you. They will take the easy and sure way. Find an independent preparer that does farm and business.


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## mbcpa (Feb 10, 2011)

You can't double dip.

If he paid to purchase the bees, he should have deducted the purchase price. He can't take another deduction for the same bees.

Also, the definition of a casualty loss is something that is sudden, unexpected, or unusual. I'm not sure this would qualify.


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Maybe he wants to look into insurance on his colonies?



A quart jar with a measuring cup and some windshield wash fluid and directions how to do mite testing mite bee cheaper and more effective in the end!


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## mbcpa (Feb 10, 2011)

Mike Snodgrass said:


> I just found out i cant write off beekeeping expenditures from last year as well!!! I didnt sell a dimes worth of honey last year and i wont this year either!!!!!!


Whoever is telling you this is most likely wrong.


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