# SHB Larvae question



## Foxhound (Feb 19, 2015)

We have a lot of SHB in Alabama and they can really be a problem

What you saw is pretty normal though. Your bees can't get down to the mite inspection board, so any SHB you have will have free reign down there. SHB will often lay eggs down there amongst all the "stuff" that falls from the hive. There is plenty of food down there for them to survive. Under 50 SHB and you are still ok. Crush them when you see them, but a strong hive will keep them in check.

I would open up the screen bottom board completely since winter is behind us and to avoid creating a home for SHB.


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## Tom Keith (Mar 24, 2015)

I would open up the screen bottom board completely since winter is behind us and to avoid creating a home for SHB.[/QUOTE]


Will SHB go thru their cycle if the grub can't fall to the ground?


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

My SBB are enclosed with an elaborate debris tray. There is a good bit of fallen wax in the tray. If you dont clean the tray weekly the wax moths will get down there out of reach of the bees and lay. Put a little DE on the tray.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>Will SHB go thru their cycle if the grub can't fall to the ground? 
The grub will crawl around the hive until it gets out, then it will burrow into the soil.

Might also look at swifter unscented dry pads. I just got some going to give then a try. There's a post on here that talks about them.


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## phyber (Apr 14, 2015)

Tom Keith said:


> Will SHB go thru their cycle if the grub can't fall to the ground?


My bee club has a theory that if you get some of that green indoor/outdoor carpet, and cut it into a 6'x6' area and place the hive on it, that any larvae that fall out aren't able to bury into the ground, thus stopping the cycle.


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## Mandkfarmer (Feb 14, 2013)

Thanks for the info, yep this is when I usually remove he boards, so I'll keep a watch on them. I also read the post on the swiffer pad. there was one on using a micro fiber clothe also, cutting into strips. I already have some of those so I'm going to give that a try. Last year I used the traps you fill with mineral oil, they worked pretty well, just messy.

Thanks for the replies.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Tom Keith said:


> I would open up the screen bottom board completely since winter is behind us and to avoid creating a home for SHB.



Will SHB go thru their cycle if the grub can't fall to the ground?[/QUOTE]

No. If you staple a piece of window screen to the bottom of your sbb they will fall through the course screen and get trapped in the 3/4" space above the window screen and dry out and die instead of going to ground.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

phyber said:


> My bee club has a theory that if you get some of that green indoor/outdoor carpet, and cut it into a 6'x6' area and place the hive on it, that any larvae that fall out aren't able to bury into the ground, thus stopping the cycle.


They can crawl farther than that area..........


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I had a piece of 1/8" hardware cloth and it wasnt big enough to make a screened bottom board so I just decided to try out some kind of screened board.I took a regular bottom board and cut a couple holes with a hole saw and painted it black around them and tacked the hardware cloth on the bottom.Then made a place on the bottom to slide a plastic sandwich tray in.Painted it black also.I have read where beetles run to dark areas when the bees run them so I thought may they would run into the holes to drown in the oil.Well to my surprise it worked really well.I made a screened bottom board also when I got some more hardware cloth and a tray to try.The full screen worked no better than the first one with the two holes.I think the next ones will only be with one hole to see if there is any difference.In the ones with the two holes when I install one of them the first think in the oil is lots of tiny shb larvae.I have wondered if they crawled to the deep dark hole or the bees are dumping them into the dark hole.These boards really have brought the shb's way way down.The sandwich tray in the pic is from just an over night catch on the first board I made and installed.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Well I see you cant see the really tiny larvae in the tray pic but it has lots of them in there.


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## Foxhound (Feb 19, 2015)

Any of the attempts to keep the SHB from getting to the ground are pretty pointless. Diatomaceous Earth (DE), concrete pads, green grass mats, nematodes, etc... 

SHB adults easily fly around from hive to hive, so the beetles you do find are likely from another hive in the area. They wouldn't be a result of some SHB larvae from your hive getting to the ground. 

Your goal should be to keep SHB from setting up shop in or around your hive as adults. If your bees can keep the SHB contained, then the SHB won't be able to lay eggs. You wan't to reduce the amount of cracks inside the hive and space for SHB to harbor. Full plastic frames are great places to raise SHB. The frames with the slotted top bar and bottom bard are also great places for SHB.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

You are right Foxhound.I have seen that hives is only one of their food sources.They like all kinds of rotting garden vegetables also.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Foxhound said:


> Any of the attempts to keep the SHB from getting to the ground are pretty pointless. Diatomaceous Earth (DE), concrete pads, green grass mats, nematodes, etc...
> 
> SHB adults easily fly around from hive to hive, so the beetles you do find are likely from another hive in the area. They wouldn't be a result of some SHB larvae from your hive getting to the ground...
> 
> You wan't to reduce the amount of cracks inside the hive and space for SHB to harbor. Full plastic frames are great places to raise SHB. The frames with the slotted top bar and bottom bard are also great places for SHB.


That would all be true if your only concern was your one hive and today. Is it pointless to interrupt the SHB life cycle so as to reduce the number of adults in the future? The larva that goes to ground under your hive today will be the adult that crawls in the entrance next month. That's why they get so bad in late summer.

I'm not saying that all of those attempted countermeasures work - but some probably do.

No offense, but personally I think that what you are advising in the second part of your post is pointless - you can't eliminate places for beetles to enter the hive or cracks for them to hide in - one frame of empty comb can house dozens - or hundreds. To a certain extent adult beetles are not really a problem though. 

In my experience hives that experience *SHB larva meltdown had another problem first - with queenlessness at the top of the list.* Other conditions that lead to meltdown are - 1)Splits that are made up too weak to cover and patrol the brood and pollen resources 2)Very high levels of mite infestation which makes the bees too sick to deal with the beetles. 3)Stress due to robbing which results in a starving and or queenless hive - then larva hatch out in the brood.

*Mostly (90% of the time I bet) you can avoid SHB problems by keeping hives strong and queenright.* I've mentioned this many times on here before, but it doesn't seem to sink in - I guess people are more interested in traps and gadgets.

I do a lot of splits and hobby level queen rearing - both of which can easily result in weak queenless hives if you aren't careful so I've had enough hive failures with SHB larva to see what does and does not usually cause it. I'm not just making this up out of things I read on the Internet.


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## Foxhound (Feb 19, 2015)

Your right on David. Strong hive and good queen fix most every problem that my occur with your bees. 

I think all the ground treatments are pointless because they do not seem to be worth the effort and expense. The benefit seems to be pretty minimal, especially because the neighborhood beekeeper may be pumping out more small hive beetles than bees. No ground treatment is going to keep their adult beetles from flying to your hive. The ground treatments have to be reapplied often and can be washed away by rain. By the time the SHB beetle gets to the ground, the larvae has done it's damage.

You can eliminate the cracks for the beetles to hide in. The beetles don't hide in the cells, the bees coral them in the empty spaces on the perimeter of the hive. Gaps where the joints meet and spaces in the frames are popular areas. Quality construction on the frames and boxes are one element in the SHB fight.

Glad you are doing some local queen rearing. I think that is one of the biggest benefits we can provide to other beekeepers and to the future of our hobby. Thanks for that.


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## rweaver7777 (Oct 17, 2012)

David LaFerney said:


> That would all be true if your only concern was your one hive and today. Is it pointless to interrupt the SHB life cycle so as to reduce the number of adults in the future? The larva that goes to ground under your hive today will be the adult that crawls in the entrance next month. That's why they get so bad in late summer.


This might be true if hives were the beetles' only food source. Larva that eat enough in the hive to mature and fall to the ground are a VERY small percentage of the total larva that eat rotting fruit from less-than-tended gardens and trees that produce more than anyone can use and where fruit is just left to rot on the ground.

I'd say that indeed it IS pretty much pointless to worry about the 1% of adults that mature under your hives, when 99% of the adult population comes from miles around. Especially when all ground treatments are expensive or have to be reapplied after every rain.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Here hives are very few but beetles are real plentiful.Rotting vegetables are way way way more plentiful than hives for a food supply for beetles.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

rweaver7777 said:


> This might be true if hives were the beetles' only food source. Larva that eat enough in the hive to mature and fall to the ground are a VERY small percentage of the total larva that eat rotting fruit from less-than-tended gardens and trees that produce more than anyone can use and where fruit is just left to rot on the ground.


I don't think so...

_"Small hive beetles belong to the insect family
Nitidulidae (sap beetles), which are primarily scavengers
of rotting fruit, pollen, and fungi. Some nitidulid
beetles are myrmecophiles—“ant lovers”—living
directly in ant colonies and soliciting food from their
host, but *the small hive beetle is the only known nitidulid
to live exclusively with honey bees.*" Mississippi State University _

There are university publications about SHB available all over the net, but I've never read any indication that SHB can reproduce in fruit - only that they are related to other species that can. I believe that SHB require the protein that they get from brood or pollen. I could be wrong on this - I would be interested in any evidence that I am.


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## Moccasin (May 18, 2010)

Small hive beetles are capable flyers and some documents state they can fly 60 miles in search of habitat. It only takes 1 beetle to lay eggs. I too have read that in Africa they are found feeding on decomposing fruit and carrion.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I've heard that too, and It might be true. Might not though.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

David LaFerney said:


> There are university publications about SHB available all over the net, but I've never read any indication that SHB can reproduce in fruit - only that they are related to other species that can. I believe that SHB require the protein that they get from brood or pollen. I could be wrong on this - I would be interested in any evidence that I am.


Should not be hard to prove or disprove. Catch a couple, put them in a jar with a vented lid and an apple or pear, see what happens. Should take less than a week to see larva is the temps are above 80 and humidity is kept above 60%.

I can garantee that if you put pollen sub in there they will reproduce. So do that with a second jar as a control.

jeb


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

We were inspecting a hive the other day (not ours) where a feeder had leaked onto a bottom board and there was a mass of stuck and drowned bees as well. The bottom board was loaded with SHB larvae and the bodies of the bees were eaten leaving only the exoskeletons. My wife is a geek and did a microscopic exam as well. We discussed our findings with a large queen breeder and he confirmed the same issues with mating nucs (which are difficult to keep strong enough to hold SHB at bay). Having seen them first hand reproducing on sugar syrup and dead bees (they were no larvae in the comb), I would think they aren't that particular about their source of protien and carbohydrates.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I've seen that too - but how much protein is in a rotting cantaloupe compared to brood or pollen or dead bees? Jeb has the plan - I might just try that.

The issue for me with mating nucs is when they are queenless - dud cell, or virgin not making it back from mating. You can fix them by giving them a frame of brood at the same time you give them a cell, but the ones that stay queenright over and over usually don't have that problem.

For some reason it seems like if they fail to take twice in a row they usually don't ever make a good queen. Probably my imagination, but it does seem like that.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

David LaFerney said:


> I've seen that too - but how much protein is in a rotting cantaloupe compared to brood or pollen or dead bees? Jeb has the plan - I might just try that.


I'd theorize the maggots and other insects drowned in the juice of the rotting cantaloupe may provide as adequate a protein source as brood, pollen or dead bees. A somewhat "meaty" piece of rotten fruit might be a good test environment. I just gagged a little...


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## mcauth (May 21, 2013)

I make freeman style bottom board traps and fill them with Diatomaceous Earth. I like this setup for a few reasons, and it catches a lot of beetles and it literally sucks the life out of the larvae. DE is also good for moisture control, which is something I deal with here in GA.

I've also moved my hives from a shady spot to a much more sunny spot, and at least for now, the beetles have been MUCH better for me. We'll see as the summer marches on though...


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