# worker cell size



## buckfast (Apr 27, 2000)

Concerning the size of worker cells, does anyone have any specific information on research that has been done on this topic? does the size of cells vary with climate. Has anyone tried to let bees in differnent climates build their own comb? I would be especially interested in any information pertaining to the Northeastern US. Thanks for any leads or help.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Cell size information is about the only thing I've been working on for the last 2 months. I'm adding more info to the site on a regular basis. The Lusby's have probably studied more research on cell size than anyone else. Read up at: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/index.htm 

Yes, the size of cell does vary with climate and a map has been created by the Lusby's showing such zones that is linked off of this page: http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/lusbyjun1998.htm 

I know that quite a few beekeepers are/have converted over to 4.9mm cell size for their bees as this is the natural size for bees in most of North America. I've recently started the process and will be posting it at: http://www.beesource.com/eob/4dot9/index.htm 

Regards,
Barry


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## mhoel (Apr 28, 2000)

Are any of the foundation manufacturers making the smaller sizes? (ie Rite Cell, Duragilt, Plasticell etc.)

Is anyone selling the small sizes?

------------------
Mike


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Mike -

I am told that the smallest size foundation available in the States is 5.1mm and sold by Miller's American Honey in Colton, California. I will be calling them this week to verify and let you know.

Right now the only way to obtain 4.9mm is from other beekeepers who have already regressed their bees and are making their own foundation. Several people (including myself) are in the process of making molds for 4.9mm size foundation and once completed, will give anyone the ability to make their own foundation molds/press from just a single sheet of existing 4.9mm foundation.

Regards,
Barry


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## Juandefuca (Mar 16, 2000)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Barry:
*Mike -

I am told that the smallest size foundation available in the States is 5.1mm and sold by Miller's American Honey in Colton, California. I will be calling them this week to verify and let you know.

Right now the only way to obtain 4.9mm is from other beekeepers who have already regressed their bees and are making their own foundation. Several people (including myself) are in the process of making molds for 4.9mm size foundation and once completed, will give anyone the ability to make their own foundation molds/press from just a single sheet of existing 4.9mm foundation.

Regards,
Barry*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Barry
I have measured cells and find various measures . Anywhere from 4.9 to 5.5. The 5'5 appear to be drone brood cells but are also used for honey storage.
As far as the manufactured foundation go , I am not aware what those sizes are. However, at on time I researched the places of manufacturing of molds. There is an outfit in EL Cajon / Cal. which does that . If I recall correctly they manufacture two sizes. One of them is smaller and is applied to the Africanised bee. Apparently it would be for export to the south.I am not aware of the size either.It is possible that I might find the source again but I cannot promise.
regards
Catfish


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## Juandefuca (Mar 16, 2000)

Hi Barry 
I checked today again and came up with the following:
Location :Strait of Juan de Fuca , Olympic Peninsula, Port Angeles area.
Elevation : 200 feet plus / minus 50 feet.
Race of bees : Mix of Italian leftovers ,Carnica ,but primarily local wild stock , assumed to be of caucasian origin.
Hive : 3rd year in TBH, Kenya type.
Cell size of drone and Honey storage ( No foundation used): 6.5 to 7.0 m/m.
worker cell size : 5.4 to 5.5 m/m.
Accuracy : 1/2 m/m plus , minus.
Climate : cool, moist, windy , overcast.
Wild stock originated from "bee trees" . 
Previous measures of worker cells ocasionally 
but rarely down to 4.9 m/m.
catfish


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Juandefuca:
*Hive : 3rd year in TBH, Kenya type.
Cell size of drone and Honey storage ( No foundation used): 6.5 to 7.0 m/m.
worker cell size : 5.4 to 5.5 m/m.
Accuracy : 1/2 m/m plus , minus.
Climate : cool, moist, windy , overcast.
Wild stock originated from "bee trees" . 
Previous measures of worker cells ocasionally 
but rarely down to 4.9 m/m.
catfish*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I find this to jive with what I'm finding. On my bees (that are all on 5.4 mm foundation) that were put on 4.9 starter strips and left to build comb from there, I would get some drone/honey comb as big as 7.1 mm cell size with worker brood cell size 5.2 mm.

It's these large cells that are now loading up with varroa. How do you deal with varroa in your TBH's? I just did a total shakedown of this hive and put them on 4.9 foundation. This being the second regression this season, they should do pretty well with keeping to the 4.9 size.

I now have 2 hives on 4.9 cell size and will now concentrate on culling out any irregular comb as each new round of brood does a better job of building true 4.9 cell size. It appears that regression to 4.9 cell size is possible within one season if conditions are favorable, as they have been this year.

I will be updating this page very soon with new photos. http://www.beesource.com/eob/4dot9/index.htm 

Regards,
Barry



[This message has been edited by Barry (edited 06-20-2000).]


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## Juandefuca (Mar 16, 2000)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Barry:
* I find this to jive with what I'm finding. On my bees (that are all on 5.4 mm foundation) that were put on 4.9 starter strips and left to build comb from there, I would get some drone/honey comb as big as 7.1 mm cell size with worker brood cell size 5.2 mm.

It's these large cells that are now loading up with varroa. How do you deal with varroa in your TBH's? I just did a total shakedown of this hive and put them on 4.9 foundation. This being the second regression this season, they should do pretty well with keeping to the 4.9 size.

I now have 2 hives on 4.9 cell size and will now concentrate on culling out any irregular comb as each new round of brood does a better job of building true 4.9 cell size. It appears that regression to 4.9 cell size is possible within one season if conditions are favorable, as they have been this year.

I will be updating this page very soon with new photos. http://www.beesource.com/eob/4dot9/index.htm 

Regards,
Barry

[This message has been edited by Barry (edited 06-20-2000).]*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello Barry
Sorry to answer that late to your post. I am somewhat backward finding posts on this site.
But now it accidentally lighted up.
To answer your question about the varroa problem in tbhches. Well It is to me very awkward to inspect and handle these tbh hives. As far as the strip placement goes it really is not a problem. But to count the dead bodies is another story. At best it is inaccurate . I have a white plastic sheet on the bottom of the hivebody which is supposed to be a sliding out feature. BUT the buggers usually glue the thing somewhere and it is a major endavour to pull it out or remove frames to undue it where it is stuck. Then the bees , in this case good house keepers , remove the varroa and other debris and one is as wise as before. So , an answer to this problem of checking has to this date no result worth talking about.
Other medications , such as formic acid , menthol , etc poses hereto an unresolved matter also. At least for me it is. Maybe somebody has a solution practical as well as speedy.I think I mentioned it somewhere that one of the two TBH is Kenya , the other a modified Tanzania fit to Langstroth dimension to utilise the mass of frames I have laying about.
Both TBH are very prolific , specifically in drone production ( If anyone is out for drones , Come to me and get 'em)The comb building is nothing to write home about. But the excess combs render themselves perfect for comb honey in chunks.
Should I ever consider building another TBH , the construction features would be the same as my other ones,( Ordinary tom/Dick/Harry Langs) i.e. screened bottomboards with removable screen as well as the inspection board. At this time I am working on a pollen collector incorporating the other items also.
Also I got into Pedro's fuming thing.( since 2 months)I apply as he says and I will see in the fall what gives. Meantime I have found in 14 colonies one live varoa in drone brood and three dead since last fall ( None this spring in any colony after miticide application) on the inspection board. I check daily where applicable. ( Not all boards are all the way in)Ventilation is one of my idiosyncracies.
The cellsizes are so irregular in these TBH hives that I am at loss to see the light.It appears that the size fits the location and it has no effect on the propagation of varroa . If one is not on the ball with it ,one loses colonies in spite of cellsize, SO IT SEEMS. But as mentioned before these wild bees have something going for themselves and the jury is not back yet on that one.
At this time the tbh with langs frames is so big that I have now an equal of 4 deep hive bodies ( double decker) and all are loaded with bees but not necessarily with combs . The bees just hang there in beards.There were in three years two swarms which I collected out of Kenya. None out of the other yet.I hope I confused you totally and I regret that superficially. Until the next time , happy beeing
JDF 
Fell free to bother me with your observations . I like that !


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## Juandefuca (Mar 16, 2000)

Hi Barry and Everyone.
This is un update of recent findings.
Last Thursday evening a feral colony was removed and hived from an eve in a house 1000 plus feet up the mountains in absolute wilderness without any known domestic colony nearby.( Olympic Mountains)
This colony consited of about 2 lb of very docile friendly bees ,which came to the location about 5 day prior to the removal.The race of bees unknown , neither dark nor light.
New combs were of uniform size and partially filled with nectar and pollen.
The cellsize varied between 4.75 to 5.1 m/m.
These bees appeared to be slightly smaller than our so called "Domestic" stock.
The bees were hived Thursday night and absconded Friday morning some time, regretfully. . This colony had no mated ripe queen ,at the most an unidentified virgin. It may have joined one of mine in the apiary.
Another colony was removed under similar circumstances at a 200 feet elevation on Saturday night. It was an very old feral colony of mixed origin .Multiple colonies in the neighborhood. The cellsize was equal to any other here , 5.1 to 5.7. According to neighbor hearsay is this colony there for at lest 5 years. The new owner wanted them removed.
It yielded about 5 gallons of honey. No Varroa was found in dronecells checked. The colony had all the earmarks of being very healthy and massive ( Total of 5 gal bucket of at least 3/4 full of bees).It was also hived and appears to be settling down.
That's it for the day.
Happy beeing 
catfish


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Quick question on measuring... techniques I guess you would call it. When measuring cell size is the measurement taken the inside measurement for the cell walls running parallel to one another or is it taken from corner to corner of the cell?

Moon


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## Ramona (Apr 26, 2008)

Barry said:


> Mike -
> 
> I am told that the smallest size foundation available in the States is 5.1mm and sold by Miller's American Honey in Colton, California. I will be calling them this week to verify and let you know.
> 
> ...


Last I knew, Dadant has small cell (4.9) foundation. It was not in the "foundation" area of the catalog but was in the "varroa treatment" section. I believe others carry it also although I think Dadant is the manufacturer.

Mann Lake carries the PF 100 series in 4.95 cell size (plastic all-in-one foundation/frame).

Beekeepers who don't use treatments make their own foundation from their own wax to get a foundation that is more free of contaminants as all the foundation on the market (tested by Penn State) has shown beekeeper applied chemicals as well as ag chemincals.

Ramona


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## ekervina (May 18, 2009)

Heh... I guess availability has changed a bit in the 11 years (almost to the day!) since Barry's comment.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Moon said:


> When measuring cell size is the measurement taken the inside measurement for the cell walls running parallel to one another or is it taken from corner to corner of the cell?


Where ever you start your measurement, end at the same place, ten cells away and divide by ten.










11 years already! Lot of changes since then!


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## Nate Finch (Aug 4, 2010)

Brushy Mountain has small cell foundation, too, 4.9mm (doesn't say the size on their site, but I asked their helpdesk, and that's what they said).


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Okay so I started off on the wrong foot. I don't think enough can ever be said about doing the proper amount of research before starting an endeavor and here is a classic example. I had not even heard about small cell or treatment free before I started my hives this year. All of the bees we got were placed into hives we bought from Mann Lake Ltd. and we used rite cell foundation. Unfortunately I had not given a second thought to putting the plastic rite cells in nor did I ever think to measure or ask if they were small cell. The cell size on the foundation is ~5.25mm and I'm wanting to regress. The first deep is already started but before I place the second deep on what would be the best way to regress them to sc? I already bought the foundation to fill all of the second deeps and the honey supers with the rite cells and I would hate for that all to go to waste, I imagine I could use them in the supers but not the brood nest. What would be the best way to rotate out the foundation already in the broodnest? Just move it to the supers and let the larva that's in there hatch? 

Comments and advice appreciated,

Moon
_*edit*_
This is just as an after thought but I've been thinking about doing this. Since it's early in the season when I caught this; pull what ever frames haven't been drawn in the lower brood nest deep and replace the remaining ones with 4.9mm foundation. Use the 5.25 in the honey supers and slowly rotate the 5.25mm frames that already have brood up into the honey supers (I'll have to use deeps for my honey supers this year but that's no big deal). Let the brood that's in there hatch then the bees can fill it with honey. I'm thinking (or at least hoping) ideally the first round of brood I have will be larger sized bees but by the second or third round of brood they should all be small cell and will have had plenty of time to build up for the winter. They're only going to have to redraw 4-6 frames in the lower brood. Good idea or bad idea?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I would contintue this year with the 5.25mm and next year purchase enough small cell foundation for one hive. Next year you can shook swarm one of your colonies on to the small cell foundation to get your 4.9 cell comb drawn. You will have the standard sized cell colonies to compare the small cell with and you will have a source of bees for backup/support for the small cell.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Moon, did you read this thread? Oldtimer really pushed his bees in one season and was able to get a hive down on SC comb.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?250294-Small-Cell-Hive

The problem with waiting till next year and using the 5.25 foundation, your bees may not make it without resorting to some kind of treatment. It's best to be fully committed to no treatments so you don't end up contaminating your wax and propping up the bees.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Okay just talked to the beek I got the packages from for this year and asked him what he thought about small cell and apparently he said that's all they use in their operation so I screwed up by using the larger foundation since they were already regressed, however that's good that the queen came from small cell stock ehh? Again, hopefully I can nip this in the bud since I caught my mistake early on.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Remove any frame with large cell foundation and replace it now with small cell. Move these one at a time to the center of the brood nest and work any drawn comb to the outside. I might pull anything that isn't brood one at a time so they have time to make new stores.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Here's something else that I'm kind of curious about. When I called and asked the beek about small cell foundation that I got the bees from he assured me all of his bees were small cell bees. I noticed on one of the hives a couple weeks after we got them I screwed up and didn't push all the frames together like I was suppose to and they started drawing comb from the inner cover down. They had a pretty decent sized paddle of wax going before my next inspection and I ended up cutting it off of the inner cover and pushing the frames back together. This morning when I got home from work I was wondering how large the cells were on the comb they had drawn naturally and it was 5.5! Are they not small cell because of this or is this not indicative of anything?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Bees do what they want. The size is often due to the plan for it's use. Honey storage is usually on the large end of worker cell size, while brood is on the small end. Natural cell varies greatly in size.


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## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> Bees do what they want. The size is often due to the plan for it's use. Honey storage is usually on the large end of worker cell size, while brood is on the small end. Natural cell varies greatly in size.


I competely agree! I have a couple TBH's that I've rotated the comb completely out mutiple times. In the middle of the comb the cells are 4.9 to about 5.1 but on the upper and sides it ranges up to about 5.8. 

Mike


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