# Horrible mating numbers



## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

I've been trying to make some queens this year and while i was not expecting large numbers i am dismayed at the results. First round out of about 15 i got 3 mated. One of those i accidentally killed. grrrrr
Second round should all be laying by now in my mating nucs. all the cells hatched out the bottom and i have a big fat zero laying or visable. very dissappointed. 
These were all fully capped and developed cells with plenty of royal jelly but for some reason they are not coming back mated. We have had only one day where i would call no fly day. All the other days i've had bees flying most of the day. 
Anyone else having these kinds of numbers?? Even in spring when i was trying to stop swarming I split off 15 5 frame nucs each with at least one frame that had queen cells and those mostly failed as well. I have 3 different yards several miles apart all doing this.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I don't know exactly your specific situation, but i do know this.

Some sites get excellent mating, and some sites get very poor mating. IE, my best mating sites run at consistently over 90%. The worst, i'd be lucky to get 20%, so after giving those sites a fair trial I'll move out of those sites, at least for mating purposes.

Then i have at least one site that gives poor mating until very late spring, then flips around and gives very high percentages. At least for that site i know the reason, nearby is a dumping ground for usually several hundred commercial migratory hives, once they are moved in mating is excellent, presumably thanks to the huge numbers of drones nearby.

Poorly raised queen cells result also in low mating percentages. But if you feel you can rule that out there is a problem with your sites. I wish i could look at a site and somehow know by the layout of the land or whatever, if it would be a good mating site. But thus far, I have not been able to figure it out, only the bees know. I think a person just has to try different locations, and when you find a good one, use it, and ditch the constantly bad ones.

If you know of a large ( at least fifty hive ) apiary somewhere, try getting a site near that. Or better still, several sites around it, just incase the drones are all congregating one particular direction from it, so you can figure where you got the best results.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Summer predation seems to be my biggest problem. It is not that they do not get mated, it is that they get eaten while trying to do so. I am setting up several fly backs this weekend to try and get as many cells as possible to put in everthing I have available as a mating nuc. If I can get a 25% return rate I will be happy and will combine the failures to make up stronger nucs.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

How long did you wait after they emerged. I often find it takes a week longer than we expect / plan before the new queens are laying. I used to think we could harvest them two weeks after placing cells, and on a good round I can, but more often than not its 3 weeks after placing cells before we find laying queens.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

grozzie2 said:


> How long did you wait after they emerged. I often find it takes a week longer than we expect / plan before the new queens are laying. I used to think we could harvest them two weeks after placing cells, and on a good round I can, but more often than not its 3 weeks after placing cells before we find laying queens.


Its two weeks after they are sealed. I'm using a calendar that says they should have emerged last Friday and laying today. They are only 2 frame nucs and did not see a queen on any of them.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

JWPalmer said:


> Summer predation seems to be my biggest problem. It is not that they do not get mated, it is that they get eaten while trying to do so. I am setting up several fly backs this weekend to try and get as many cells as possible to put in everthing I have available as a mating nuc. If I can get a 25% return rate I will be happy and will combine the failures to make up stronger nucs.


I figured i'd have 50 percent loss to that and other reasons. I have a lot of birds around me with nests so feeding young and i'm sure need a lot of food. Just didnt figure it would be 100 percent loss. What is a fly back?


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> I don't know exactly your specific situation, but i do know this.
> 
> Some sites get excellent mating, and some sites get very poor mating. IE, my best mating sites run at consistently over 90%. The worst, i'd be lucky to get 20%, so after giving those sites a fair trial I'll move out of those sites, at least for mating purposes.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Maybe next year i'll try taking the cells out to another yard and see the results. Problem i'm having seems to be at all yards. I have some inspections to do in the next few days so maybe an extra two weeks will get them laying. Last time i went around for that round i saw nothing. At this rate i'll be just recombining all of these nucs into hives instead of selling any of them.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

kaizen said:


> Its two weeks after they are sealed. I'm using a calendar that says they should have emerged last Friday and laying today. They are only 2 frame nucs and did not see a queen on any of them.


That.


2 weeks is too soon. It varies by breed, some of the dark breeds are ready that quick but for typical italians you need to wait longer. And that you didn't see queens doesn't mean they are not there, they will be flying at the 2 week mark.

How about report back in another couple of weeks, be interesting to see how this pans out.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Which calendar are you using? I figure about 28 days from grafting day. 5 to cap, 8 to emerge, 5 to harden off, 3 to go on mating flights, and a week to start dropping eggs.

Fly back split, you leave the queen in a small hive with just one frame of capped brood at the original location and move the parent colony in the same yard. Foragers fly back to the queen and leave a hive packed with nurse bees to make new queen cells from existing eggs and larvae. Good for one shot per hive at making 10 to 20 cells. The hive with the old queen tends to draw comb super fast so the balance of the frames are usually foundation or partially drawn combs.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have had very good mating return success even though there were no ferals and no kept bees within 3 miles. I think that is due to being within a few hundred yards of a natural drone congregation area. 4 way junction of roads right along a glacial moraine hillside with a large gravel pit within shouting distance: Treed to the north and a cleared field immediately to the south. I dont think the queens have a long dangerous voyage to make.

The first round of mating is before the dragon flies come out in force. Now they are starting to get very plentiful and the do hang around the bee yard and I see them making off with bees quite regular.

WWW from Ohio had large numbers of Tanagers which constantly preyed on his bees and he blamed them for giving him very poor mating success.

I am sure local conditions can have a very large affect on mating.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Since we've been popping up in each others' threads about queens...

I retrieved 2 of my 4 nucs that I had in my mating yard. Both _had_ laying queens recently. But, I believe they absconded when we had a few days of excessive head and humidity. They were dark colored nuc boxes and I'm guessing they overheated. Right now they have lots of bees that are too young to fly and capped brood. I'm pretty bummed.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

JWPalmer said:


> Which calendar are you using? I figure about 28 days from grafting day. 5 to cap, 8 to emerge, 5 to harden off, 3 to go on mating flights, and a week to start dropping eggs.
> 
> Fly back split, you leave the queen in a small hive with just one frame of capped brood at the original location and move the parent colony in the same yard. Foragers fly back to the queen and leave a hive packed with nurse bees to make new queen cells from existing eggs and larvae. Good for one shot per hive at making 10 to 20 cells. The hive with the old queen tends to draw comb super fast so the balance of the frames are usually foundation or partially drawn combs.


Actually i read it wrong. today they have as mated and laying is july 7 which is 24 days. Maybe i'm just early by a week. Should still be fine as i just started my next round so i have time before needing the nucs. Now that i have 2 frame mating nucs i think it might be a lot easier to just put a frame of bees in them with eggs and call it a day. A few of the ones i have now have done that even though i have the queen pheremone thing in there. Funny as summer is just in its peak and i'm worried about winter already. life of a beekeeper i guess....


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

Steve in PA said:


> Since we've been popping up in each others' threads about queens...
> 
> I retrieved 2 of my 4 nucs that I had in my mating yard. Both _had_ laying queens recently. But, I believe they absconded when we had a few days of excessive head and humidity. They were dark colored nuc boxes and I'm guessing they overheated. Right now they have lots of bees that are too young to fly and capped brood. I'm pretty bummed.


And i thought beekeeping was hard. This queen thing takes so much more work and i have a lot more to learn to get any where near the pro's numbers. laughing at myself as i was counting chickens before they were hatched.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Fly back split, you leave the queen in a small hive with just one frame of capped brood at the original location


Open brood is used! 
This is to anchor the "swarm" and help keep them from absconding, it also prolongs the time the queen can't lay in the comb, triggering them to draw new combs for the queen the lay in. Not to mention leaving the mites behind in the capped brood that is moved away, giving them almost a clean start !!!
Not giving them (much to any outher) drawn comb is also a key
You're trying to trigger post swarm behaviors, and when your get it right they draw comb and fill it madly.
like many things beekeeping, there are a lot of ways a thing can be done. It would seem a simple thing to add a box to a hive. but nadiring, supering, and supering with ladder combs all work to an extent but often have different effects on behavior, the devil is in the details


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## Apis Natural (Aug 31, 2017)

it's about 18-20 days from hatching till you see eggs, and another 5-7 days before you see larvae


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Don't forget that the timing during the day of your inspections can create problems, too. When looking for mated queens I try to do that before 9 am or after 6 pm. The last thing you want to do is have the hive open when a queen is returning from her mating flight. It probably doesn't matter as much if you are "late" in looking for signs of laying, say after 30 days. But if you are checking at the earliest possible day, it is a risk.

Nancy


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Thanks msl, I may have that wrong then. I have only done a few and used capped to get nurse bees quickly and open up the brood comb so she can start laying. Never thought of it as trying to trigger post swarm behavior.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

kaizen said:


> And i thought beekeeping was hard. This queen thing takes so much more work and i have a lot more to learn to get any where near the pro's numbers. laughing at myself as i was counting chickens before they were hatched.


That is one of the reasons I actually prefer letting the qc's emerge in the incubator. No need to make up nucs for cells that turn out to be duds to begin with. Had that happen last week. Double mating nuc. One side had a dud cell but the bees stayed put for awhile. The other side bees took off and queen died in the cell fully formed. 0/2 on that attempt. Other mating nuc queen emerged but have not seen her yet. Will see in another week.

My success rate with grafting has been so dismal I am considering a blood offering to the bee gods.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

kaizen said:


> Its two weeks after they are sealed. I'm using a calendar that says they should have emerged last Friday and laying today. They are only 2 frame nucs and did not see a queen on any of them.


if they emerged on Friday, then expecting them to be laying by the following Wednesday is about a week to quick, it's more like the time they are ready to go on mating flights, and another week before you can expect to find eggs.


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## amk (Dec 16, 2017)

Mine have been taking their time. 20 plus days from emerging to start laying.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

Thanks everyone. As i stated earlier i was off by a week. I'll take a look next week and hopefully will show signs of success. Thank goodness i have an incubator or i'd be in trouble with this current round.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

Checked the ten today for eggs. Had 2 that i saw. Saw another queen that was not laying. So better then zero.
Have a few that look like laying workers even though i have the queen pheremone in them. Also have a few that have made emergency queen cells that i will probably just leave be. Thought having the phermone in the box would stop these behaviors?
Going to let them go for another few days before pulling the queens and marking them. 
These 2 frame nucs can really get messy due to extra space. all kinds of wonky comb issues.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

My understanding is that it is the pheromones produced by open brood, not the queen, that inhibits development of the laying workers. Temp queen is supposed to help anchor bees in a new split. Getting ready to go outside and see what my nucs are doing, or not doing, as the case may be.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

So it turned out I got 11 pending nucs to be mated.
Will see how it turns out this 2019 mid-July.

Last year I mated 4/5 just about this time.
Then mated 5/5 in late August/early September (mostly experimental - 4/5 of the late batch lost over winter).


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

I'm torn on the 2 frame mating boxes. I use them the last time I had a good graft* and thought I was set. The other hives robbed the heck out of them while I was at work. When I got to them it was just a few bees on a frame and lots of wreckage. This was also during our spring flow.

I probably should have put on guards. I tried and am liking the resource hive setup. In another thread a poster talked about using them for honey & nucs. I think I will probably just try that. I have a few boxes that I was going to use for swarm traps that I will convert. I have enough drawn comb in the freezer for the 2 extra combs in each box.

I enjoy these threads since it seems Kaizen, JWPalmer, myself and a few others are all learning this at the same time. It's almost like an open group chat.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Learning, I am. I have four of the two frame deep mating nucs ala Barnyard Bees. They have not been successful because of the robbing issue as well. I will need to modify the entrance to accept a screen so have not used them since two summers ago. The mini mating nucs from ML have about a 3/8" × 1/2" entrance that the bees are able to defend. So far though, I only have bees in one half of one box. Can't seem to keep the bees in the nucs. Right now I am back to using 5 frame deeps and hopefully my two queen castles which also have a very small entrance. I did just confirm that the reason my last grafting attempt failed was due to a rogue virgin. Three of the frames in the "cell starter" are loaded with eggs as of this evening. Pretty much on schedule for a cell that was started when I first made it up. Have three other nucs that failed to produce a queen cell and now are just capped brood and lots of bees. Will shake them all into one nuc and give the cell bar another shot this weekend.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

I actually am loving the 2 frame barnyard nucs. Think i used 2 or 3 sheets of 1/2 inch plywood and some scraps and made 18 of them. Instead of the bottom entrance i ordered cheap entrance discs from amazon. Painted the nuc fronts different colors and used different colors of entrance discs to better eliminate queen returning to the wrong one. I have them in my "nursery" at my home. This is a fence enclosed area 6 feet high and about 8x 20 feet. Any that look alike are separated by at least 4 boxes. No robbing yet but it seems i'm still on a flow as even the 2 frame nucs are packing away the honey. Hoping by the time a dearth comes i will have them shut down. 
For some practice i grafted again. This queen was my best but i didn't have her here so couldn't. She lays incredibly. she was already built up and expanding into the 2nd box when i opened them in spring. This time i did it all on my own where before i got aggravated and had the kids do it. I filed my graft tool down so its thinner and i was actually able to slip under some doing that floating thing. We'll see how they go tomorrow. Just couldn't help myself and didn't want to end with a sorry display of grafting like i had last round.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

JWPalmer said:


> I have four of the two frame deep mating nucs ala Barnyard Bees. They have not been successful because of the robbing issue as well. I will need to modify the entrance to accept a screen so have not used them since two summers ago.


For others - I can't emphasise enough the importance of anti-robbing screens, especially when working with nucs in a single-yard apiary. This is a shot of robber-scouts trying to gain access to a Klindworther nuc box I'm trialling, just half an hour after I set it up. They gave up after about two hours. Without the screen, that tiny colony would have been robbed-out by hundreds of frantic bees without mercy. 



Fortunately, when I modified the box to incorporate ventilation, I also took the precaution of adding a simple wire-mesh screen - something which doesn't feature in George K's original design.
LJ


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Terrence, modifying the boxes to use the entrance disc like you did would be an easy fix. Sometimes I overthink things. Thanks.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

JWPalmer said:


> Terrence, modifying the boxes to use the entrance disc like you did would be an easy fix. Sometimes I overthink things. Thanks.


After many iterations of boxes I found the only reason i want a bottom entrance is for an OAV wand. Now that we have the diy OAV thing and i'm using MAQ's I will have these on all my nucs. There is enough room that i can make a simple robbing screen to fit over it. I doubt just reducing the entrance with the disc would help alone. Maybe its just me but they just look so much happier crawling into a hole.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> ... This is a shot of robber-scouts trying to gain access to a Klindworther nuc box I'm trialling, just half an hour after I set it up. ....
> LJ


Wow.
Is it a dearth situation?

At this time of the year in my location - I don't care.
Does not matter. 
Bees are too busy with the normal flows.

It will matter in August here.
By then I should be beyond the mating projects, however.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

I have my mating nucs at least a 1/4 mile away from any big hives and I don't have robbing issues. In the same yard it was death to the nucs. Only had 12 to mate had 9 return.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Dan, I would be pretty happy with a 75% return rate right now. Heck, for July queens, 50% would not be half bad.

I wonder if it is legal to shoot dragonflys with a pellet gun?


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

JWPalmer said:


> Dan, I would be pretty happy with a 75% return rate right now. Heck, for July queens, 50% would not be half bad.
> 
> I wonder if it is legal to shoot dragonflys with a pellet gun?


I let a friend of mine use one of my queen castles he has a lot of dragonflies he had 1 out of 4


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Well, I got all my grafting stuff set up, loaded the cell bars with new cups and then went out to combine the 3 nucs that had not started cells. Good thing I double checked. Two of the three had capped queen cells in them, although not terribly large ones. First time ever to be disappointed to find queen cells in a walk away split! The one that did not make cells is lower on stores and has fewer bees than all the other nucs. Scratch that plan.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

As of yesterday's checking - I am 5/5 so far.
9 more nucs are pending.
Next weekend will go and check (though maybe too early).

One comment - I have documentation (Iliazov, 2015, pp 88-93) where they actually tested different sizes of the mating nucs by colony size (300g, 600g, 900g of bees) and concluded:
- the *weakest *mating nucs had the *worst *mating #s - 300g of bees (using little frames - 1/4 Dadant frames).
- the *strongest *mating nucs had the *best *mating #s - 900g of bees (using 1/2 Dadant frames and full Dadant frames - frame size did not really matter as they found).
- mating nucs with populations of 600g of bees were in between by the mating #s (using 1/4 Dadant frames and 1/2 Dadant frames)

Overall, the strongest mating nucs had the best mating numbers and these were conclusive test results (they claim so).
In the strong nucs they got ~40% success rate.
In the weak nucs they got ~20% success rate.
While the trial #s are pretty poor overall, still the weak vs. strong nuc #s are significantly different.

So, I personally just have standard nucs with 2-3 full size frames with good bee coverage as my mating nucs (just for equipment re-usability and standardization).
But I am yet to see the "horrible mating numbers" beeks are talking about.

It maybe people should revisit these ideas of mating with micro-nuc equipment.
It may work fine if you mate 100s of queens and high tolerance for failure rates.
It may NOT work too well if you only mate 5-10 queens for personal use.
So this is the comment.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Minnis are for those who would otherwise have a surplus of cells 
love to see the Iliazov # on success

figure 8.8 pees per gram, a cup used to stock a mini (600) is like 68g of bees, so one could stock 13 mini nucs with the same resources as the "best" in your Iliazov example

to put it in figures more appuacal to this forums reader's 
one deep frame, with 60% capped brood and cover bees is around 6,000 bees one the brood emerges. So you can run at least 10 minis for the same bee costs as one of the 2F deep mateing nucs that are in vogue right now. 

Once you start cellbuilding cultured and portable cells (grafts, cell punch, cut strip, etc) its not much effort to have way more cell per week then you could ever use in fullsized nucs, even after culling dink cells.

end goles also matter.. many people talk "mateing nucs" when they mean splits that will raize a queen and grow out.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> .......So you can run at least 10 minis for the same bee costs as one of the 2F deep mateing nucs that are in vogue right now. .....



I don't disagree.
Myself I only do queen-less splits around the QCs - these are not even mating nucs, technically.
Simple that way - I can do immediate re-splits/re-combines of these nucs on the spot (thanks to the frame compatibility).
I don't need single-use equipment to juggle about.
I only need 5-10 home-raised queens if so - don't really have time/desire/business model to manage tens and hundreds of new queens.
So this simple, homesteader method works fine.
Yesterday found a newly laying queen in a single-frame nuc - just pulled a QC out, so not to waste it - she mated fine - a good stand-by queen to be combined anywhere I need.

There are plenty of bee-eating predators out - this is mid-July.
Still, I am yet to see the "horrible, terrible mating numbers".
Maybe next week I will see just that.
Somehow doubt it.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

> First round out of about 15 i got 3 mated.


So, yes, I hope OP is doing better now..
But 3/15 (20%) per a batch is really amounts to wasted time while the summer time is limited.
Also, I am targeting the ideal mating to occur while my own drones are in the air - so the ideal time frame is even more limited.
Mating time window is the really most valuable and limited resource (for open mating).
Especially so if you also then plan to grow the new starts into the winter - using newly-mated queens - these starts must be started not later than July - to be able to grow enough.
Cost of the bees saved on the mating nuc configs - is really trivial and not that important to worry about it (for a small scale - 5-10-15 queens - beek, not a big business).

PS: I guess I am just talking myself out of mini-nuc project - well done. hahaha


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

GregV said:


> So, yes, I hope OP is doing better now..
> But 3/15 (20%) per a batch is really amounts to wasted time while the summer time is limited.
> Also, I am targeting the ideal mating to occur while my own drones are in the air - so the ideal time frame is even more limited.
> Mating time window is the really most valuable and limited resource (for open mating).
> ...


Still struggling. Went through them again last night and did not find any new ones. I did have one that had a ton more bees and wondered if it was bees a queen brings back after mating. Had to put them in a 5 frame nuc to give them room. 
Still have a couple more rounds to do. Have some in the cooker to go in the nucs and some in the starter to go into the cooker. Some of the nucs are so calm its like there is a queen but not seeing any signs. 

In my limited knowledge of this queen breeding thing, I can't see the size of any individual nuc mattering. She is going out and breeding with others in a different area so what does the home yard really matter? 
I have a really hard time coughing up that kind of money for a mini mating nuc Styrofoam box. I much prefer to build my own 2 frames. Between all of them i think i'll have a good size colony or two when i put them to bed for the winter.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

kaizen said:


> .........., I can't see the *size of any individual nuc* mattering. She is going out and breeding with others in a different area so what *does the home yard really matter*? ...


We can not see many things in this life. 
Sometimes obvious things. 
Just how it is....
Unsure - you are talking of an individual colony size OR yard size? OR both?


The nuc size maybe matters - this is just what the guys found in that particular trial.
I don't know. 
Maybe someone has some complementing #s. 
OR otherwise.
I never heard of such trials before.

As far as the size of the yard?
I don't know.
But the logic suggests - the more confusing hives are standing around - the higher are the chances the mating queen entering a wrong hive (and being killed).
Somehow I think, the issue is less about the dragonflies and more about the queens returning into wrong hives. 
At least this is a part of the issue.

Last year I never had more than three (3) mating units in a single yard. Very good mating #s.
This year I have up to five (5) mating units in a single yard - all in distinctly spaced nuc hives.
Will see what goes.

As far as this mating business goes - I much prefer Mel D.'s approach - I just make up few starts, give the QCs, and let them handle the queen mating.
I need a # of viable starts for the next year (that include the queens with them) and that what matters, NOT just # of mated queens in particular (a queen without a good supporting colony is useless to me).
This approach makes sense to me as a homesteader-beek.

And also, again, high % of mating to me is much more important than savings in bee counts needed to run a mating unit (this could be more important to a queen seller - however).
High % of mating means I don't have many wasted summer start-up units as far as season progresses - that is more important in my program.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

GregV said:


> But the logic suggests - the more confusing hives are standing around - the higher are the chances the mating queen entering a wrong hive (and being killed).
> Somehow I think, the issue is less about the dragonflies and more about the queens returning into wrong hives.
> At least this is a part of the issue.



Perhaps this is because you do not have 50-100 dragonflys swoopoing through your beeyard, helping themselves to a free meal? Last year I was using my 2 x 4 deep queen castles. Opposite sides of the yard. Each entrance faced a different direction, each side had a different color design. I was still only 1 for 8. The two frame deep mating nucs also different colors but near each other, 0 for 2. Keep in mind we are talking about summer mating returns. My spring numbers are quite good, 80% or better. My grafting % is still awful, no matter what season.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> Perhaps this is because you do not have 50-100 dragonflys swoopoing through your beeyard, helping themselves to a free meal? Last year I was using my 2 x 4 deep queen castles. Opposite sides of the yard. Each entrance faced a different direction, each side had a different color design. I was still only 1 for 8. The two frame deep mating nucs also different colors but near each other, 0 for 2. Keep in mind we are talking about summer mating returns. My spring numbers are quite good, 80% or better. My grafting % is still awful, no matter what season.


I am well aware we are talking of mating in progress right now (July).

OK, immediately I can say - all my mating units (just like all hives, really) are sitting in bushes/tall weeds and grass/woods.
These are not prime dragonfly hunting grounds - nope.
And I mean it this way - for the bees to be in the weeds/woods.
Woods and dragonflies don't mix too well - just another side-effect now that I think of my ways..


But let me also propose this...
IF the dragonflies are so successful in picking off those 5-10 particular flying queens out of *hundreds and thousands* of bees also simultaneously flying there, ALL those dragonflies are 
1)specifically hunt for the queens (what? that seems very unlikely but I guess you suggest exactly that) OR 
2)the dragonflies should be mowing down your entire mating yard as if by machines guns (and accidentally catching very, very few queens in between all those the bees and also big, sting-less, and delicious drones); 
if true - this alone is a serious concern compatible to mites or worse.

I just don't see #1 is deliberately happening (could be exactly what is happening but ... wait, what? anyone reported this phenomena before? the dragons specifically hunting the virgin queens - virtually distinguishable from the workers).
But if #2 is happening, don't you feel as if you loosing bees an mass? 
Because you should be loosing a lot of bees before you lose those 1-2 queens.

Anyways, I will report back in 1-2 weeks.
Fingers crossed!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> Perhaps this is because you do not have 50-100 dragonflys swoopoing through your beeyard, ....


Move the mating yard.



> Movement of the apiary site is the only practical means of control.


https://agdev.anr.udel.edu/maarec/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Pests_of_Honey_Bees_PM.pdf

PS: posted about "dragonfly swarms" in the Pest department.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

I think we can all agree there are many uncontrollable factors and we all don't have the data that we need to determine what is causing bad mated numbers. Perhaps we should be putting calipers on the queen cells or virgins and seeing if the little ones are the ones getting eaten. Just so many potential issues. Perhaps moving the mating yard next year might be worth it. Its just more convenient to have it in my back yard where i can easily do the work rather then loading up an incubator. 

My last round of grafts i got 10 sealed out of 40. Next year i will have to practice more. filing down the metal grafting tool to half the thinness really helped getting under them. Yes this is aggravating but i don't think we are wasting our time. We only get better with trying things we don't do well at.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Greg, thanks for the link on the dragonfly swarms. I grew up in South Florida where dragonflys were quite common. I don't remember seeing so many here in my yard in Virginia until I started keeping bees. I am just hazarding a guess here, but don't queens fly slower? I know that drones can fly much faster than both the queens and the workers. Up to 22 mph I think vs 15 mph for workers. Stands to reason the queens might be easy pickings. I watch my bees at the waterer and often see a dragonfy swoop in and grab a bee in flight. Hornets do the same thing. Just figure they can't eat enough to cause a decline in numbers. They are getting foragers after all.
Moving the nucs into the trees might help. I will try that next year. At least they won't get picked off as they come in to land.

I am with Terrence on the idea that if you know what is possible, perseverance and ingenuity will eventually get you there. I have about another two weeks in which I can make walk away splits and hope to get at least another 10 started as 3 frame nucs in a 5 frame box. (Three of bees and brood, one of stores, one foundationless frame.)

Good luck with your matings. To twist a phrase, many happy returns!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

kaizen said:


> I think we can all agree there are many uncontrollable factors ........


Certainly.
For sure, after reading some about the "dragonfly swarms" - it certainly may impact things (not just mating but overall bee pop impact). 
Thinking - if a static, feeding dragonfly swarm settles over the mating yard, the yards needs moved/reconfigured OR maybe more bees needs added - so to dissolve the mating queens into the larger crowd. 
A headache either way.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

GregV said:


> Certainly.
> For sure, after reading some about the "dragonfly swarms" - it certainly may impact things (not just mating but overall bee pop impact).
> Thinking - if a static, feeding dragonfly swarm settles over the mating yard, the yards needs moved/reconfigured OR maybe more bees needs added - so to dissolve the mating queens into the larger crowd.
> A headache either way.


Going to train my bees to fly in a flying wedge formation. That should get through the dragonflies and birds


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> Greg, thanks for the link on the dragonfly swarms....


Sure thing, I just learned myself about the "dragonfly swarms" - a new thing to be aware of.

Anyways, these two splits both (to the left of the mother hive) freshly mated in July.
The mother hive should contain a freshly July-mated queen too - I don't care to break it apart now to verify (only judging by the activity).
So this is ~3/3 July-mating success so far.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

4/4 for the July mating per the today's check.
(was really working the production hives; well - the smoker was still alive and so I checked the oldest startup nearby - the brand new copper queen is laying all-right).

Will give it another week not to screw things up - then check the remaining 8 starts - expect to find newly laying queens.
Pretty darn sure I will have 10/12 to 12/12 for the July mating success.
Just little more patience.


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## amk (Dec 16, 2017)

That’s how mine were last month bad numbers checked yesterday was 10/10 and able to harvest for my production hives.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

So far, two of the eight walk away splits have produced queens that are now laying. Two more should be laying next week and two the week after if they are all successful. One got another frame of eggs as they failed to produce a queen cell and one other got the queen from the donor hive, my bad.

Saw a bird tearing the wings off a dragonfly it had caught, yay.


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## Ryan Williamson (Feb 28, 2012)

JWPalmer. I'm near Charlottesville, Va and see my mating success window from about 95% in the spring to as bad as 50% in July. Unfortunately I was gone most of June so here I am grafting and splitting knowing that many won't make it. I did get to see a queen return from her mating flight this morning!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

> I did get to see a queen return from her mating flight this morning!


I actually was lucky to see just the same during May splitting project - first time in my life. 
Never seen before.
I even tried to grab her and mark - well, she ran inside, maybe for the better (got marked a couple of weeks later).


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

kaizen said:


> Going to train my bees to fly in a flying wedge formation. That should get through the dragonflies and birds


There are a lot of factors in mating success. I skipped over some of the comments, so mine may be redundant.
I agree with Oldtimer............success varies with location, etc. 

Size of nuc: 4 frame nucs have a higher mating success rate than 2 frame nucs. Mini nucs may get quicker results, but with lower success than full frame nucs.

i get better results in spring than in summer. Often, new beekeepers check the nuc too often. It is better to not disturb the nuc for 2 weeks minimum. If its a strong nuc, worse case scenario is they will raise their own queen. If the queen cells you install aren't 9 or 10 days old, it may take longer than 2 weeks for the queen to start laying.

I will admit to checking to see if the cell has hatched sometimes; however, with a strong nuc this is really not necessary.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> 4/4 for the July mating per the today's check.
> (was really working the production hives; well - the smoker was still alive and so I checked the oldest startup nearby - the brand new copper queen is laying all-right).
> 
> Will give it another week not to screw things up - then check the* remaining 8 starts* - expect to find newly laying queens.
> ...


Given a free afternoon, checked the remaining 8 start-ups.
7/8.
That makes it 11/12 for the July mating.
One queen I just could not find on the three frames with few bees (no eggs either) - written off as a failure.
Trying to mate out of the same hive could be the actual problem (queen confusion).


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## BroncoVol74 (Jul 12, 2016)

kaizen said:


> I figured i'd have 50 percent loss to that and other reasons. I have a lot of birds around me with nests so feeding young and i'm sure need a lot of food. Just didnt figure it would be 100 percent loss. What is a fly back?


Skip to post #17.
https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?303881-Spring-Split-Last-light-or-Midday
Late to the show, but for some good reading here is Lauri's post on her version of the "Flyback Split." I use this method exclusive for splitting down my big production hives. It works brilliantly. I just did one a double deep hive last Friday (7/19) and they have already drawn out the entire 10 frame deep. I will be putting another deep of new foundation on tomorrow. 

As far as getting queens mated I'm probably not much help because my success rate is so up and down I don't have any sure data to go by either. I had about a 95% success rate this spring with my splits just using swarm cells. We will see what this summer brings but I also haven't got the grafting thing down either. I just grafted 43 cells 2 days ago and checked them yesterday evening. It looked as though I may have 15-20 accepted. I used the box of nurse bees and brood from the flyback for a cell starter so I know I have plenty of nurse bees to handle that many cells. I just don't know what I am doing wrong when it comes to getting the larva grafted.


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## Andhors (Dec 7, 2018)

I have some queen cells from grafting. What now? Put a cage on the finished cells and wait for them to emerge? How long should I wait to put them in a nuc? Is it okay to mark them before they mate? I had bad luck with my last attempt. Am I doing this too late in the season?


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

Andhors said:


> I have some queen cells from grafting. What now? Put a cage on the finished cells and wait for them to emerge? How long should I wait to put them in a nuc? Is it okay to mark them before they mate? I had bad luck with my last attempt. Am I doing this too late in the season?


If you don't have an incubator then yes you would put them in nucs. I believe the acceptance rate is higher if they hatch in the nuc. Some here hatch them out and then put them in. I'd wait to mark until they are mated. They are skittish and fly often. Another reason why i let them hatch in a nuc. In my area yes its late. Not sure about cali.


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

If you hatch them outside a nuc, I understand the acceptance is much higher if you include the cell when you install. You don't have many days to delay the install.


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## BroncoVol74 (Jul 12, 2016)

So an update on my latest grafting efforts on 7/23. I have 29 out of 43 capped cells. I'm pleased with how the cells "look" and I hope to get a good return on the mated queens. 
I did do something different this go around on my grafting. I recently watched a YT video of Kamon Reynolds' on grafting and using a small Joseph Clements type starter/finisher. I have used the JC before but what Kamon did was on grafting day when he checked the hive for any rogue queen cells he would not just crush them but he would also utilize the RJ to prime the grafting cups. I used this method this time and I think it made a huge difference in my acceptance rate. I was unable to get better that 30-40% acceptance before. 
I plan on direct releasing the virgins. I have as good success and it prevents me from making up too many queen less nucs.
I will give an update on my returned matings as I plan on using 3 different yards.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

1st run numbers
"north yard"
foam minis 8/8 stocked with wet virgin dropped in and a cup of bees dumped on top, stored dark and cool for 3 days then let out 
my wood minis, 2 ways with four 1/2 shallow frames a side, done as FBS faired poorly, lots of cells didn't emerge, as didn't some capped broodd 5 /9 it was HOT like 100+ thinking thermal regulation issues... maby suryp in the foamys helped them vs feed in the comb? 

"Main yard"
2 frame with FBS cells 2/3
2 frame with virgins 2/2 
queen castles with fbs cells 3/5
plamers with FBS cells 5/5

"south yard (KTBH)"
virgins in full sized 0/2 one relesed, one dead in cage
virgins in 2 bar nucs 0/3 wtf... 2 absconded, one before, one after releasing the virgin. one has bees but I am not hope full as I was catching and marking queens form the same batch today
ya... the south yard has some problems. inch:


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

I had some strange stuff going on. 4 weeks ago i went through my yards and mating nucs to see what i was going to have to pinch off or combine. I splurged and ordered 10 queens figuring my failed efforts I'd need these for larger colonies that i didn't want to move. At last full check i had at least 10 drone laying colonies. They all had queens with the exception of 1. 
I brought the queens out to do the installs and of course went through the colonies one last time. Surprisingly 8 of them now had capped brood. 
I ended up installing the cages in my mating nucs so i could figure out what to do with them. Bees pleasantly figured it out.


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## BroncoVol74 (Jul 12, 2016)

kaizen said:


> At last full check i had at least 10 drone laying colonies. They all had queens with the exception of 1.
> I brought the queens out to do the installs and of course went through the colonies one last time. Surprisingly 8 of them now had capped brood.
> I ended up installing the cages in my mating nucs so i could figure out what to do with them. Bees pleasantly figured it out.


I had this same situation with a few mating nucs this year as well. What looked at the beginning to be drone layers was apparently just a slow to get going queen. After some research I read a few posts that said sometimes queens do that. 

On the grafting/rearing/mating front, out of my 29 accepted grafts I had 27 of 29 emerge on day 8 and the last 2 emerged the next day. I direct released 12 (actually 13, a couple angry girls attacked and killed one so caged the next one in the hive for a couple days) the first day and the rest the next day. Out of the 29 I have 25 doing well in queen castles in 2 different mating yards. 
2 got balled on introduction and 2 absconded/left or were probably killed soon after introduction. I did not spray with sugar water before introduction, I released them onto the top bar of the frame, not onto the comb and the nucs were made up the same day. So I'm sure that had something to do with those failures. 

Now I just have to wait 2 weeks (8/18) and see how the mating phase goes. I will report back on the success. 

I can't remember if I mentioned it but these queens are the daughters of Coy Bees Company Russian Honey Bee Association (RHBA) Queens. I have had Russians in the past and I really like them. So I got a couple more this year and hope to be able to propagate that breed in my yard. My success at raising Russian queens has been less than 50% but I am pretty sure that is 99% my failures as a beekeeper and not the Russians fault.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

So many factors for successful queen rearing....so many details that can be critical!

Kaizen, thx for posting your not-success... I have started queen rearing (at 13 strong hives now, 10 queenright nucs to overwinter as nucs, 6 questionmark hives with queens either coming on or not....). I hope to sell queens in my area, there is a real demand. But I don't want to talk about not being successful at queen rearing!!!  makes me look bad, maybe? or just the reality, trying to get queens mated to our convenience rather than to their needs can be a problem.

I have done 5 rounds of queen rearing, from 9-12 queen cells at a time. First round: 3/3 mated, 1/3 mated, 0/3 mated, 2/3 mated. 6/12. All in the same wooded yard, in a wooded area. One was a drone layer (I counted as not-mated). I wish I'd taken better notes about the following variables: direction box was facing, % of frames covered with bees, amt capped brood vs open brood vs nectar vs honey.... maybe one of those factors mattered? Or it was just random?

Subsequent rounds (about 50 more mating nucs or half-sized hives or full sized hives with queen cells, for a total of around 60 attempts at getting a mated queen) resulted in 33 queens. Oh. That's not as bad as I'd thought actually! I guess the disappointments really stick with me. 

OK, so some details I will be treating as critical for next year....

I am grafting, then (sometimes, and ideally) putting grafts in a queenless cell builder, full strength hive, with foragers and a pollen flow. Gotta say that thankfully my grafting success isn't an issue. Gentle lady hands! 

I don't trust pollen patties to be good enough nutrition for a queenless hive with only nurse bees and no pollen coming in. So there's a variable right there! what sort of early environment for rearing the queen. I have found that "prepping" the cell builder with at least 1 frame of open brood 5 days before putting in queen cells is very helpful. I have also found that 3 frames of bees with few foragers yet (failed mating, started queen cell from introduced open brood) can do really well at getting a mated queen back - as well as my friggin mating nucs using grafts and a cell builder. 

Then there is the mating nuc. I built a 3 way box, bee tight dividers, 3 frames each. So many ways to do this... I used to avoid putting open brood in, and for most of the nearly 50 mating nucs I've put grafts into this summer, I had capped brood and stores only. Now I am of the opinion that the open brood is needed (like 1/2 of a frame out of 3 frames) for at least 3 reasons: 1) a protein-rich snack if needed, 2) anchors the nurse bees well, 3) starts all mating nucs at the same point relative to becoming a laying worker hive. All queenless sections will be at risk starting at day 20 post mating nuc setup. And I have come to the conclusion that there can be "invisible laying worker syndrome" - a hive that has not had open brood for close to 20 days may just kill a new queen, who isn't laying strongly yet, then raise a queen cell from her eggs. Ding dongs. 

Oh the other thing about mating nucs - after this summer's trials and tribulations, I swear by using mating nucs with foragers at the time of queen flight. So I'm setting them up 10 days or so ahead of time. I really am starting to think there can be an entourage of house bees that accompany or facilitate the virgin queen's return. This may be a factor in Greg's report of a study showing more bees lead to higher mating success? Gotta find a couple days (next summer) when I can sit outside and watch mating nucs to see if the virgin is out solo or with an entourage... or figure out a camera system!!!  beekeeping is an odd hobby, isn't it.

And a mandatory robbing screen. I am going to use a mating yard with 10-20 strong colonies with drone combs, with a ring of 6 hives with mucho drone production at the 1 mile mark out from my yard. So it won't be feasible to have a quiet mating yard with minimal risk of robbing - I need the drones that come with the strong colonies!!! And I'd rather have just a few outyards with a few hives, and the central one with the majority.... at least at this point. I have found that a robbing screen on my 3 way nuc where the entrance ( a 1 in hole) is blocked such that bees have to land and walk on the face of the box at least one inch under the screen works great to deter robbers but make for easy entering for house bees. 

Here is another variable - when to move the queen out? I was being pretty cavalier - hey, there's eggs, let's go! - but now I am pretty committed to waiting until there is capped brood from the queen. I think I lost a couple due to the bees killing the too-new queen. They were definitely queenless, cuz they raised a queen cell from that queen's eggs after killing her! Ding dongs.

Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences too - good point about the overheating, I will be using a double lid because sometimes it's 90 in Ohio in May, because Ohio weather likes to showcase 3 seasons a month, almost every month. And insulation on the walls. 

Boy, this was a nice summary I just made, I will have to keep it somewhere so I can find it easily for next year!!!!


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## BroncoVol74 (Jul 12, 2016)

Update: As of today, I have 16 of the 25 mated and laying and 1 queen is still questionable but I'm not too hopeful about it. I am pretty sure that the majority of my failures in getting them mated were mine. I was only able to get 4 of the queens into a different mating yard but I had 3 of 4 get mated and 13 of the others in my home yard. 
My suspected/known failures were not letting some of the queen castles be queen less long enough or spraying with sugar water (pretty sure that caused 3 queens to get balled) and I left one virgin locked in a cage for 6 days (I forgot how many I had caged when they were being aggressive to the virgins).
After all that I had 75% and 62% success in the two yards. Much better than I expected or than I have ever one before.
Now I just have to get 13 little colonies built up for winter.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

great news, that things are not as bad as you first thought! Good luck, hope mother nature cooperates and helps you with a good flow. So far, looks like I have to pretend to be Mother Nature, because I am not seeing any rain in the forecast, and I don't think the flow will be great here this fall.


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