# Do Varroa not seem as bad this year?



## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Close one eye and squint real hard with the other. The mites just go away.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I have heard a lot of people saying that they are not nearly as bothersome this season... we can't find any at all... I wanted to test a few new treatments, but am having to outsource the treatments to others just to find mites to kill... however, I will add that we have seen this trend a few times before... all season seems quite for everyone, then early spring losses tell a different story... just keep an eye on those counts and don't let your guard down yet... when an enemy is in retreat, you give chase to keep them from returning.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Doesn't it make sense that this may be true? If there is alot of die off due to mites, then there aren't as many mites come the next season, because they died w/ their hosts and there aren't as many hosts as before. And so it cycles.

We see this in nature all the time in prey/predator situations. One year there are lots of rabbits because there is lots of food for them to eat. Therefore foxes feed well on the rabbits and the next fox reproductive season sees lots of baby foxes, therefore more foxes than last year. They feed on the rabbits, which knocks down their numbers and effects reproduction the next year. That's roughly the idea, I think.

So, if we see the effects of varroa really heavily one year, perhaps we won't the next. Otherwise, eventually, the varroa will kill off all of its' hosts and die itself. They don't live on anything else here, do they?

And, I'll bet that these observations are local and anicdotal in nature. Let's see what the Apiary Inspectors of America have to report in their next report on Colony Loss 2011. It would surprise me not to read that the percentage is the same as last year, 30%, Nationwide.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Mosherd1 said:


> Is it possible we are turning the corner on this?


Don't turn your back.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, if we have turned a corner, it may just be into the on coming traffic of Tracheal mites. We turned a corner on them along time ago.

I'm thinking that we haven't had problems w/ tracheal mites because they have been displaced by varroa. Does that make any sense? Or maybe we don't recognize their effects thinking that what is due to varroa is actually tracheal?


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

I think that is all sound advice. I will also be eager to hear if anything scientific comes our tpo support the anecdotal evidence so far.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Past few years my varroa numbers would start getting high at this time of year. This year so far numbers have been very low.
They'll probably creep up on me in Sep, & really screw things up in my winter bees.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We decided to forgo our spring mite treatments this year as we just werent finding enough mites to justify it. Could it be that after being told by some for years that any intervention to artificially keep mite numbers down and hives alive constitutes being part of the problem that just maybe treating and keeping our operations viable wasnt such a bad idea after all???............Naaaaa


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

I ignored my Spring treatment as well. My uncle has not treated in 3 years and was also saying that he has not seen many varroa. His lack of treatment was what caused me to skip my spring treatment and possibly even my fall (possibly if I have enough guts). I am hoping that over 20+ years of dealing with varroa in this country the vulnurable genetics are starting to give way to a more tolerant group of bees. The tracheal mite analogy is interesting. It was horrible, now noone is really worrying about it like they were. When varroa came everyone was treating 2 times per year, then it was down to once per year, and now it is on an "as needed" basis. I am encouraged overall.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It has been suggested all along to only treat when a certain threeshold has been reached, but what that threshold is or was, was never firmly established. And may have depended upon the time of year.

If one had two mites in a sample of 300 bees in April/May, those 2 to 300 would be X by Sept/Oct.. Maybe someone could say w/ authority. But I'm thinking that it might be something like 4 brood cycles and each mite producing 2.5 per cycle, therefor, 2 producing 5 thge first cycle, 5 producing 12 the second cycle, 12 producing 30 the third cycle, and 30 producing 75 the second cycle. And so on.

And by June 21, the Summer Solctice, the queen, ever so slightly, starts laying fewer and fewer eggs, the Solctice being tghe peak of egg production of the year, in the North anyway. Or so I have been lead to believe.

So, if you graph it the peak of the population curve of the bees peaks earlier than the peak of the varroa mite population curve. So, one will see appreciably more mites per bees later in the summer and into the early fall.

All that being said, if one treats their colonies for varroa mite control, killing of a percentage of the mites early in the season should result in smaller mite loads later in the season, when mite predation does its' worst damage resulting in colony mortality later in the fall and early winter.

All of this one must figure out for themselves, as to what is right and proper and benficial to their beekeeping.


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

True, only time will tell. I have been checking drone brood as I think the sticky board gives you an indicator but can vary much. Earlier in the spring I noticed some DWV, but nothing for about 2 months. Maybe it is just that the population of varroa is diluted since the population is at its peak.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Do not let your (api)guard down!!! Ted


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## TwinkieBee (Feb 21, 2011)

I havent seen any mites this year yet. But Russell told me to keep an eye on the counts in late summer just in case. I have never had to treat, but will if I run into trouble. Beetles have been my big concern. Hi Ted! Never met you but heard a lot of good things about you while I was helping out at Russells this year!


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

funny thing about mites...by the time you see them, it is too late...just like rats


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

10-4 Shack.

Haven't seen any = not doing washes or drops.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Mark,
Using your arithmatics if bees removed/killed one of those mites from the breeding population, maybe one more, or one more, how does that change the the "exponential" of the population?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Mark pretty much nailed it in post #11, I liken it to the example of how doubling a penny every day for 30 days can make you a millionaire times 10. It dosent seem significant for the first part of the month but there comes a point where they reach critical mass and compounded with the queens tapering off of egg laying things can get real bad real fast. So, yeah, if you can get your total mites in a hive from 500 down to 50 it can buy you quite a bit more time; enough to make a huge difference in the quality of your hives come fall. On a side note these "fall crashes" to the inexperienced beekeeper can seem a lot like CCD because of how quickly the hive populations disappear.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rick 1456 said:


> Mark, how does that change the the "exponential" of the population?


Good question. 

Here is another one. If one finds three mites in a sample of 300 bees taken from ther brood nest area of a colony of bees, and there are 60,000 adult bees in the colony, how many mites are there in the colony? 600 mites or 1,000 mites? I have never found anyone who thinks they know the answer w/ any accuracy.

I'm not trying to dodge the question. There is just alot that we don't know.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I was just sitting here pondering your question. I was thinking that I don't really know how "bad" _Varroa_ are, this year or any other year for that matter.

I've never actually treated any of my bees with anything for mites and I've never bothered to do any mite counts. Even if I did mite counts and found ten mites for every bee, I'm still not going to be using any treatments, so if there were a million mites or none it really doesn't matter if I know or don't know how many are there.

I believe a year or two ago I saw a few combs with PMS (parasitic mite syndrome), affecting some brood, but other than that and seeing a few mites on bees or brood, including drone brood once in awhile I haven't noticed any obvious mite affects. Oh, and once in awhile a few workers emerge with deformed wings, probably from DWV, which I understand may or may not be vectored by the mites.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Is vectored by varroa mites.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Recently read how it is vectored by _Varroa_, but may also be passed, bee to bee.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Makes sense.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

JC
I'm in your camp. I've thought about doin a mite count. But I resist the temptation because I would not do any thing about it given the hive has performed. Last season, I saw a concerning number of DWV cases on a couple hives. This year, so far, very few. I have in the course of inspections, seen a few mites. I've found some in drone larvae. 
Hence my "Arithmatics question." It would seem, that if the bees dealt with even a few early on, that it could make a big difference when it comes to the fall "crash" time. I guess I state the obvious since that is when treatments are applied. I'm standing by with mine. I'm tempted to pull some of the queens and put them in a nuc for new queens going into the fall, but I really want to see how this season plays out. I do not need anymore hives right now.


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

Are the bees becoming more resistant or are the mites becoming less virulent? Maybe a combination.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Looks like some are following the "ignorance is bliss" path. Which is fine, I guess, since they aren't going to do anything about it anyway. Which is a personal choice too. I'm sure folks following that course of inaction are aware of the fact that there is a high probability of colony mortality in their future. and, at the cost of the alternatives, maybe that's okay too.

I don't do much in the way of mite counts of any sort. Having had mites and knowing that they pretty much permiate the nation, I see counts as a waste of time and bees, since I am going to treat anyway. Perhaps if I did do ether rolls or something, I might treat some cols earlier, but not likely. They all get treated at the same time. As the last super of honey comes off of the hives in September.

I guess you could say I am blissfully ignorant in the opposite fashion.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Mark,
I can afford to be, you can not.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

True.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I keep waiting for the dreaded "mites crashing hives", it's close to the end of the second decade now and I'm still waiting.

I suppose ignorance can be bliss. I just don't quantify my mites. I do look for mites, most of the time, while I'm working my hives, and sometimes I find some. I do not assume the mites are harmless. Once in awhile I feed a little supplemental copper to some of my nucs. It's said to be beneficial to bees and detrimental to mites. I hope that's true. I also use lots of small-cell PF-120 frames and many foundationless frames, too. Scientific experiments say that small-cell doesn't help with mites. Maybe that's also true, but small-cell honeycomb looks "cool" and smaller bees look "cool" too. Perhaps it's just the differences in climates, it is often very hot and very dry here in Tucson, Arizona.

Most of the first decade I kept what were likely AHB and the many walk-away splits I grew from those bees. It was usually quite difficult to work with them. They were nervous and runny, queens would hide in corners of the hive boxes, they would be defensive and sting even while they were foraging, they would swarm often, sometimes they would abscond when you least expected them to, and I was never successful at hiving a single swarm. During that AHB decade, I even tried requeening them two or three times, always without success.

But after my wife became paraplegic and we couldn't leave the house without risking being stung, and we were - frequently, I determined to change bees. I obtained four Cordovan Italian queens from a large producer and carefully introduced them with push-in cages to nucs. Three took, one failed because I missed removing a resident queen. I used those queens to raise open-mated daughters and requeened every hive. Peacefulness arrived, yeah. Since then I've imported Cordovan Italian queens from several other producers, bred open-mated daughters from them and maintained most hives in a peaceful state. Through all this I haven't had a single crashing hive, despite changing genetics, not quantifying mites, and not treating for them.

What's up with that?


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

JC,
That's what I want to say this time next year.


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## soupcan (Jan 2, 2005)

I thought the same as many on this topic as to fewer varroa.
Started to cut some cut comb in the past few days & they are still around, trust me!!!


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