# Testing out queen laying cage



## wvbeeguy (Feb 20, 2011)

interesting question. Have saw the green on ebay before. always used the brown that comes with Nicot system. Have reused them as well. My biggest issue is that some queens will take 3-4 days to start laying, some just 1 day. post back with success rate of green cups, I doubt there will be much difference.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

How do you reuse them cups?
I'm thinking to put a small round piece of thin wax
on the bottom of the cell cup. Then removed it to place
the small larva and the round thin wax into another natural wax queen cup
made from the wax dipping. I need to iron out the kinks first before the real
queen grafting season begins. Thanks for the idea though. Would be nice if she can laid
in both the short and deeper cups. Then I don't have to cut them down. This is only a test!


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I'm awaiting the delivery of my own cupkit system for this spring. http://www.ebay.com/itm/282271951840?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I too looked at the green royal jelly cups and decided that unless I was grafting larvae, I would be getting drone eggs laid in them. Beepro, what are the dimensions of the green cups in comparison to the brown ones? Looking forward to the other comments on this thread. Might have to post my own photos come spring since I will be doing this in a topbar hive.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

I haven't used the green cups.But I pretty sure queens will have no problem laying in them. Not saying they will prefer them over the brown. Velbert Williams has good info on using Nicot on his site.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

It has been almost 2 days already. And not even a single egg laid. Because she is not laying in these cups her abdomen shrunk down.
Too bad! Since it is early Spring (not officially anyways) build up time I have no choice but to released her
from the cage. There are 4 frames of new bees back to back in a double queen nuc hive now. So I don't want
to interfere with her progress that much. Maybe I'll try again once all the frames are laid up or with another breeder queen.
For the cup dimension, the green ones are 3 mm wider and deeper than the brown ones. So my concern maybe valid that the
green ones are a bit taller. Or that she not like the plastic with wax since it is new to her too. I'm not sure. It is still too early to tell now and still new to me. Perhaps later on the queen will lay in there after she is trained. I'm stopping this process now. To be continue later on.


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## wvbeeguy (Feb 20, 2011)

I had a big carniolan queen that i tried 3 different times for up to 6 days and she never would lay in it. Put another carni in and she did; although my italian queens seemed to do better percentage wise. That is just my experience YMMV.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I have tried the Nicot system and used every tip and suggestion everyone that has had success with it could give.Never got any queens to lay in mine.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I think you are too early in the season, it's going to give you better results if you wait until mid to end of February.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If I have another spare queen I will put one in. Right now my queen supply is getting low that I
had killed 2 already. It's all my fault! Still making little simple mistakes. Afraid they might get rid of 
her if I play too much in the brood nest. One got killed that way.  My 3 months old queens are laying
now trying to expand their brood nest. On a back to back 4 frames full nuc hive the queen will lay on all
sides. So if she's laying then it is not too early for testing out my queen laying cage. I'll try again when the
weather warms up a little later on. Maybe pour some hot wax on to cover the inside of the plastic cage so that it 
feels like home again.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

can the nurse bees get in there? Maybe leave it in the hive a week or so (without the queen in there) to let them polish the cells and make it smell more like home.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

This is not the time of year to be messing around in the broodnest, not in our area.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Definitely not the right time since they're starting to build up now. Though I have been
swapping drawn frames with the mite infested cap brood frames since mid-Oct til now. The purpose is to
clean up the mites before the early Spring build up. Saw very little mite build up in some hives but not for the
mite bee bomb nuc hive with a high infestation rate. 
I just want to find out how the queen will react on this little laying cage experiment. Got my answer now. I think will
modify it by cutting the green cups shorter to fit in the cage slots better. By measuring with a small toothpick, found out that the
green plastic cups is 3 mm deeper. So it is too tall for the queen with a shorter abdomen to lay in. Need to make a 
correction by cutting the cups shorter definitely. Either that or buy the brown standard Nicot cups. If reusing these cups for the next
round then grafting from them should be easier since they're shorter and wider mouth now after the modification. Let's hope the queen will lay in there next time after the modification and pouring the wax in these holes. Yes, there are many nurse bees inside with her. 


Here they're:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

snapper1d said:


> I have tried the Nicot system and used every tip and suggestion everyone that has had success with it could give.Never got any queens to lay in mine.



I also have a small plastic bottle of queen juice consist of
more than 10 queens all concentrated. Do you think it will work
if I soak the cage in for a few days?
Then there is a bigger jar of the brown water from boiling the bee
wax before. Was saving it for the swarm trap one day. Maybe now that is a use for it to soak the cage in for a few days. Have you try the left over brown boiled wax water before?
When all else have failed I can try to make my own wax queen cups to fit inside these holes. Don, the fat beeman has a you tube vid to show how to wax dip for these cups. I've mastered this process already and can make any size queen cups. At least the queen can smell the wax and is familar with the scent like home. Maybe this will help her lay in better. What do you think?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

beepro said:


> It has been almost 2 days already. And not even a single egg laid. Because she is not laying in these cups her abdomen shrunk down. Too bad!


Grafting is too easy for me to bother messing about with plastic contraptions.


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

This is called a Jenter box or Nicot sytem. Grant Gillard has a good little book on this method, there are some tricks involved, which is really only suitable to a small operation:
https://www.amazon.com/NICOT-Queen-Rearing-Grant-Gillard-ebook/dp/B00IZ4HELQ

The Bee Works also has a DVD series on queen breeding that discusses the method for using Nicot boxes:
http://www.beeworks.com/view_DVD/queenrearing.html

For a more low tech method, maybe test out the cut cell method:
http://beesource.com/resources/elem...queen-cells-without-grafting-cut-cell-method/


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## al-kul (Sep 13, 2016)

beepro interesting idea
maybe next experiment part brown and green part of the same time will explain more
Al


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I have a concern about the drone eggs laid in also because these holes on the cage are a bit larger.
So today melted some hot wax and poured in the front to make these holes smaller. Then
use a small razor blade to clean up the excess wax mess inside. Now the holes are much smaller for the
queen's abdomen to fit in. Still trying to fool her to say that these smaller holes are for the worker eggs only and not for the drone eggs.
On a side-by-side comparison with the drawn comb their hole size is almost the same. This is another way to improve the cage a 
little. Seeing too many comb configuration is confusing to me so don't know about the queen inside. 
The wax covering these cells configuration will definitely help. Only a one time adjustment for years of non-grafting usage. Going to put the queen in there 2 weeks ahead to get her used to the laying cage. Check every 3days to see if any new eggs deposited on the plastic cells. 
Going to try some standard brown cells with the shorter and longer green cells mixed in later on. Already tried out the other QC making methods before. This one has yet to try!


Take a look:


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Beepro on Velbert's site he addresses the larger size cell holes. He lines the cell walls with straws cut to length as a casing. Says it's mostly an issue in early season.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

An update on the wax in cage:

Rather than cutting straws to reduced the hole size, the poured in melted hot wax
is used to completely covered the confusing plastic cells pattern, at least it is confusing to me looking at it. Only the holes remain for the
queen to find her laying cells. After waxing in, the many holes got reduced in size just enough to
fit in the queen's abdomen. So today the cage is inside the hive for the bees to clean out the remaining wax bits and 
debris. Also cut more green cell cups to reduced their height with an angle grinder today. The reduced cell cups height should
help the queen to lay better in the holes. Do you think the reduced cup height will cause rejection by the nurse bees?


Wax modified laying cage done:


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

Waxing mine was the only thing I had never tried nor had anyone give a tip on it.I guess a hair dryer could get warm enough to melt some of the wax off and still leave a wax film on it and make it feel more homely to the queen.


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

Just watched some videos. Some people put it on a frame and left it in a foundationless frame. Others put it in for a few days and then put the queen in. I think that is the key....... Put it in a few days and let the bees crawl all over it and get the scent on it. Pull it out and then put the queen inside it.


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## herbhome (Oct 18, 2015)

Following this thread for my own education.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

And getting the bee education is never enough. So keep on experimenting to learn and
build up your beekeeping skills and know how. There is the hive pheromone to stimulate the
queen to lay up better though using a more natural approach should work this time. After a day
for them to polish the cage, today I will put in the reduced height plastic green queen cups so that the bees can
polished those as well. Because the green plastic cups are shorter now and wider to fit in the grafting tool, it will
make it easier to graft if I don't want to cut more green cups. So this is a reusable set up with the green cups to have the
bees polish them again after each use.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

An update:


So 2 days ago after the laying cage got polished by the worker bees, I've reinstalled the cage with the
queen inside with some big fat young nurse bees. Now that the cage holes have been reduced somewhat the queen should treat them as the worker cells and not the drone cells. All 110 reduced height green plastic cups are in use now. Will try
the taller uncut version later on at the real queen rearing warmer Spring time.


Reinstalled testing cage:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Another update:


After 4 day of raining, today is a nice sunny day around the low 50s. Took out the queen laying
cage to see what's going on. Lots of bees are on the cage that might be balling on the poor queen inside.
Excited bees when disturbed tend to balled the queen if the beekeeper isn't too careful on a hive check. After
brushing off the bees on the cage, the queen got flicked off onto the frame. Saw her crawling inside without any
bees clinging to her that might indicate a balling scene going on. Took the laying cage home and found 17
reduced green plastic cups had eggs in them. Many are multiple eggs so this might be a sign of the drone layers. Maybe
the workers interpreted that these larger bottom cups are for the drones only. Found 6 cups with the eggs pointing
straight up and down. These might be the viable queen cells. Overall, this experiment was a success in that the
laying holes got reduced enough that the queen now recognized them as such. It is better than before without any eggs inside. Next time I will order the real brown plastic queen cups. As far as the drone egg goes I have to see if indeed they are at queen rearing days later. So hot waxed the inside to reduced the holes size should be enough to fool the queen to lay you some worker eggs.
The next step is to use the full size green plastic cups trying to curb the LWs a bit.

Hard to see eggs:


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