# small cell bee measurements



## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Clayton,

How have the bee measurement gone? Any observations?

I have been watching the change in bee size. Although I stopped all the photographing and measuring, I still have one large cell hive that I'm using for a comparison.

I've posted pictures at http://bwrangler.litarium.com/seasonal-bee-size/

By July bees from both the large and small cell hives are bigger. And the bees in each hive seem more uniform in size. The bees from the large cell hive are slightly larger than those from the small cell hive. 

It appears that the bee sizes between the two different cell sized hives are diverging now. Although it's still hard to tell them apart visually, slight differences can be seen. This difference in size was noted in the September 2003 measurements posted earlier.

My top bar hive bees sizes are quite different when compared to those in my standard equipment. The uniformity that's now seen in both my small and large cell hives doesn't exist in the top bar hive. The top bar hive is full of bees of all different sizes with the smaller sizes predominating.

Regards
Dennis 
Hoping your bees whether large or small are building up and making you a crop of honey


----------



## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

Hi, Gentlemen I have a question. Why are you making smaller bees? I hope this does not sound like a stupid question. I have not seen why someone would want to do that and I hope you would enlighten me as to why.
Thanks
Dan


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Hi, Gentlemen I have a question. Why are you making smaller bees? I hope this does not sound like a stupid question. I have not seen why someone would want to do that and I hope you would enlighten me as to why.

I don't try to make smaller bees. I just let the bees make smaller bees.

The concept is to get to natural cell sizes for worker brood and drones. The "worker brood" foundation you buy is around 5.4mm (from 5.5 to 5.4mm generallY) The size natural bees build runs more from 5.0 to 4.6mm with most around 4.8mm.

I have measured the capping and post capping times on small cell bees (4.95mm cell size) and they are capped a day sooner and emerge two days sooner. In other words the capping time is a day shorter and the post capping time is a day shorter. This is a brood cycle of 19 days as opposed to 21 days for large bees.

According to Varroa research and mathematical models an 8 hour shorter capping time will tip the reproduction of the mites to where the population no longer increases. Also an 8 hour shorter POST capping time will change the reproduction of the mites enough to tip the scale in favor of the bees. With small cell, we are talking about a 24 hour shorter capping time AND a 24 hour shorter post capping time.

Basically 24 hours of each will reduce the varroa reproduciton by about 50%. The shorter capping time reduces the number of varroa that get into the cells by 50% and the shorter post capping time reduces the number of varroa offspring that each infesting varroa have, that get mated and survive by 50%. So 50% of 100% is 50 % (capping time reduction) and 50% of that 50% is 25% (post capping time reduction) meaning the total reproduction of the mites has been reduced to 25% of what it was.

Other purported advantages are no tracheal mites, less brood diseases, less stress, less swarming etc. I don't know of any studies on these benefits but most people doing small cell are not treating for tracheal mites or anything else. The theory is that the spiricles are smaller and the tracheal mites can't get into the trachea.

Most of my bees (as are Topbarguys) are on natural comb as opposed to small cell foundation. In other words, most are on self built comb in foundationless frames, or blank (no embossing) starter strips, or top bars. I did speed the process up with wax coated PermaComb, but mostly I'm now geared toward letting the bees do what they like. And what they like is smaller cells in the brood nest and bigger cells for honey storage and drone brood. In fact they like a lot of variety of size and the size seems to vary by the time of year.


----------



## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

Thanks MB for giving me that insight. I was wondering were all this was going. Now I understand and it all does make sence to me. 
Dan


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Hi, Gentlemen I have a question. Why are you making smaller bees?

MY question is why is everyone else trying to make bigger bees?


----------



## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

MB it's a macho thing!









Dan


----------



## Timbo61 (May 19, 2004)

That is interesting stuff from Michael Bush. I had not heard about the brood cycle time and its effect on the varroa life cycle. Where does that information come from? I would like to read more.

What struck me about this cell size issue and made me realise how important it might be was the realisation that a tiny mismatch in foundation size (.5mm or 10%) meant that the bees themselves might be oversized in weight and volume by one third. That could make them vulnerable to all kinds of viruses and parasites.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>That is interesting stuff from Michael Bush. I had not heard about the brood cycle time and its effect on the varroa life cycle. Where does that information come from? I would like to read more.

The timing I did in my observation hive.

The information about it's effects on the varroa is in this model:
http://www.csl.gov.uk/science/organ/environ/bee/varroa/ModellingBiologicalApproaches.pdf 

Here's one on small cell AHB that were doing well against the varroa and putting them on LARGE cell foundation.
http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2003/vol1-2/gmr0057_full_text.htm 

It mostly centers on the number of varroa infesting the cells with large and small cells.

>What struck me about this cell size issue and made me realise how important it might be was the realisation that a tiny mismatch in foundation size (.5mm or 10%) meant that the bees themselves might be oversized in weight and volume by one third. That could make them vulnerable to all kinds of viruses and parasites.

"By George! He's got it!" (George Harrison as Henry Higgens in My Fair Lady)


----------



## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Hey all, 
I bought small cell bees from a German breeder. He has not treated for anything in 2 years. I went one step further with them and put them in topbars and let them build thier own coomb. I plan to harvest some of it before it is capped from all phases to measure. For me this will be enough to convince me what to stay with. So far the coomb is strait and not attached to the sides. Keeping my fingers crossed.
Gary


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Just remember the significant measurments are the worker brood comb in the center of the brood nest. Sizes in other places will be all over the place.


----------

