# foam board insulation?



## chickenia (Apr 13, 2012)

I'm not in your climate, but in the Appalachian mountains...it gets pretty cold here as well. I don't put insulation/foam board on until November. Actually, I've used roofing black ''tar'' paper a few times which worked well, and then just put the foam board between the hives, which I place close to each other. Make sure the wood has room to ''breathe'' or condensation can build inside the hive...you DO NOT want that.  Oh, I keep foam board inside my IC year round to keep a more steady temp for them...good lucK!


----------



## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

30 degrees isnt that cold. Just remeber bees can tolerate cold, its the moisture that kills them


----------



## Tardball (Mar 3, 2016)

I have had great luck using foam board insulation on my hives. I use it more to reduce condensation inside the hive than for heat loss. I also wait until it gets much colder, Nov or early Dec, to reduce the chances of ants or mice taking up residence within the foam board.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have kept bees in San Mateo for 46 years and never insulated a hive. It is rarely in the low 30's here at night. There are many more important things to worry about beekeeping in San Mateo than insulation.


----------



## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

Thanks for all the replies! Yes, hopefully, insulating hive walls will reduce condensation -- this is the objective. I'm assuming that most of the condensation takes place on the hive walls, which are 3/4" thin conifer boards providing little insulation.

Today it was 55F all day, and the bees mostly stayed inside, with very little activity at the entrance -- and it's going to be like this, even colder, most of the time, here on the coastal ridges. I managed to reduce most of the condensation by minimizing the air flow through the hive: reduced entrance to 4", closed the SBB, removed the shims from underneath the IC and TC, and put a shavings-filled quilt box above the IC for ventilation. There's still condensation leaking out at the entrance in the mornings, and moisture on the walls is seen through the entrance -- and it's not winter yet, only 55F. Will see how the insulation helps with the moisture. 

Odfrank, thanks, I've read that varroa mites and moisture inside the hive are the most important issues. Also, that eliminating the two solves many other problems.

This is something in support of the inadequacy of thin conifer boards (from an old beekeeping book): "I became, however, most thoroughly convinced that no hives were fit to be used, unless they furnished uncommon protection against extremes of heat and more especially of COLD. I accordingly discarded all thin hives made of inch stuff, and constructed my hives of doubled materials, enclosing a "dead air" space all around." 

Although, not sure if everything in this book can be taken for granted, as later on the author says: "The Creator intended the bee for the comfort of man, as truly as he did the horse or the cow." What had the bees been living for before man was around? Isn't it the other way around: man was created for the comfort of the bees, dogs, and cats?


----------



## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

baybee said:


> Today it was 55F all day, and the bees mostly stayed inside, with very little activity at the entrance -- and it's going to be like this, even colder, most of the time, here on the coastal ridges.


Stayed inside? Mine were swarming yesterday.


----------



## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

Tanksbees, your bees had clear sky and full sun. Mine had to deal with an overcast and low, cold and damp fog moving in with a 20 mph wind. Why would bees swarm this late in the season? The swarm looks small, is it a secondary one?


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

batbee>
the book you quote is written by whom and discussing heat and cold in what location?
it matters, alot.

odfrank made a comment that should be headed if you live in that local.
as he mentioned, it's based on 46 years of keeping bees there.
the best book about bees in San Mateo is talking to you!


----------



## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

baybee said:


> Tanksbees, your bees had clear sky and full sun. Mine had to deal with an overcast and low, cold and damp fog moving in with a 20 mph wind. Why would bees swarm this late in the season? The swarm looks small, is it a secondary one?


I worked on the hives 14 days ago, so the timing implies that one of them lost a queen, and swarmed in response to raising emergency queens. We have a bit of a flow going on right now. Swarming is a possibility here any time of the year when they raise a new queen.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

tanksbees said:


> I worked on the hives 14 days ago


why did you work on them? what did you see?


----------



## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

clyderoad said:


> why did you work on them? what did you see?


I have 13 hives. They were moved into new equipment, equalized, light ones were fed, and mite treatments were performed. They all get a check for broodlessness but I don't check for queens. It's possible that a queen got moved between hives, squished, or killed by mite treatment.


----------



## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

clyderoad said:


> the book you quote is written by whom and discussing heat and cold in what location?
> it matters, alot.


Yes, what you are saying is, of course, true. I'm not saying it's a matter of survival, but would thicker walls reduce the stress, condensation and appetite for the stores? Being a first year beginner, I write down everything Odfrank says. 

Tanksbees, yes, this makes sense: a small swarm with a virgin queen.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I defer to odfrank for particulars in your local.

But will throw out that:
> the least amount of food consumed during winter is when the temperature is a constant
41* F or 5*C. (if I recall correctly) Higher or lower temps cause the bees to consume more.
> Proper ventilation can eliminate minor condensation issues.
What stresses are you referring to?


----------



## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

clyderoad said:


> What stresses are you referring to?


Dramatic temp changes per se are said to put some stress on bees. Thanks for the info!


----------



## bsharp (Feb 5, 2013)

If I have to have condensation in my hives, the walls are where I want it. It will just run down the sides to the bottom of the hive...it's condensation on the top that is dangerous, because it can drip and chill the cluster. 

I wouldn't insulate in your area for the same reason I don't here. The insulation may allow them to break cluster (or cluster more loosely) inside the hive, and the increased activity will cause them to eat more. Making sure they have enough food is the most important thing, even in places with truly brutally cold winters.


----------



## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I don't think you have to worry about drastic temp changes in your location.

I am on the opposite coast, with a much colder winter. I have never wrapped or insulated my hives. I do use a absorbent homasote
cover on my hives under the outer cover, with a notch in it for upper ventilation/bee escape. My climate is maritime, cold and damp in the winter. Snow is common but so are regular stretches where the bees can take cleansing flights.
Hive moisture is a problem here during most of the winter. The homasote cover has solved the issue by absorbing moisture and offering a small insulating value (R3 or so) to keep water vapor from condensing at the top of the hive.
My winter survival rate is 85-95%.
Spring is a bigger issue especially if it's late coming or cold due to ocean temperatures and prevailing winds off of it.


----------



## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

bsharp said:


> I wouldn't insulate in your area for the same reason I don't here.


See attached image so you can understand how "brutally" cold it gets here. opcorn:


----------



## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

bsharp said:


> If I have to have condensation in my hives, the walls are where I want it. It will just run down the sides to the bottom of the hive...


I hadn't known that condensation on the walls was acceptable. There used to be a lot of condensation in the corners underneath the IC; now, with the quilt box under the IC, whatever little left of the condensation on the IC is soaked by the shavings. But the walls made of thin conifer boards are covered with condensation in the mornings everywhere I can see through the entrance.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

"Being a first year beginner, I write down everything Odfrank says."
You better consult with Charlie B if he thinks that is a good idea or not.


----------



## Aroc (May 18, 2016)

tanksbees said:


> See attached image so you can understand how "brutally" cold it gets here. opcorn:
> View attachment 28269


That weather is gorgeous. I would listen to tanksbees and not worry about insulating. Maybe windbreak.


----------



## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

baybee said:


> I hadn't known that condensation on the walls was acceptable. There used to be a lot of condensation in the corners underneath the IC; now, with the quilt box under the IC, whatever little left of the condensation on the IC is soaked by the shavings. But the walls made of thin conifer boards are covered with condensation in the mornings everywhere I can see through the entrance.


I think you may be the only beekeeper in the bay area using a quilt box.

You will have great success keeping bees in the Bay Area if you simply dump them them into ordinary 10 frame equipment, and treat for mites once a year.

It is hard to be unsuccessful unless you manipulate them poorly, use foundationless, or ignore the advice regarding mites. Most beginners ignore the advice about mites and only get serious about it after they lose all their hives.

I have only had one hive with a condensation problem and it was because the sprinklers were spraying into the entrance. It is wise to tip the hives slightly forward so any water in the hives runs out instead of pooling and rotting out the bottom board. Screened bottom boards are not necessary. 



odfrank said:


> "Being a first year beginner, I write down everything Odfrank says."
> You better consult with Charlie B if he thinks that is a good idea or not.


If you saw the rotted out equipment odfrank keeps bees in, you would call Bee Protective Services.


----------



## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

Thanks, Tanksbees! I'm still trying to understand what "the condensation problem" is. Looks like, moisture dripping down from the inner cover is; condensation on the walls isn't. The quilt box is helping a lot (I want to believe); it's three in one: insulation, ventilation, and moisture wick.

"Most beginners ignore the advice about mites...". Well, I'm not one of those. Odfrank has said more than enough and shared his own statistics to get the idea of what varroa mites could do to the bees.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

tanksbees said:


> >I think you may be the only beekeeper in the bay area using a quilt box.
> 
> I have quilt boxes on five Warre's that I manage, and feel they should be used more often on Langs.
> 
> >If you saw the rotted out equipment odfrank keeps bees in, you would call Bee Protective Services.


I always hear this snide remark from the newbees who visit and have brand spanking new bright white boxes or brand new gleaming satin stained boxes. Show me your hives 46 years from now then comment on mine. I built this box in 1976 supplied by the Diamond Match company in Chico, the only nearby supplier at that time. It made it 40 years and can maybe be sawed down to make into a quilt box.


----------



## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

odfrank said:


> I always hear this snide remark from the newbees who visit and have brand spanking new bright white boxes or brand new gleaming satin stained boxes. Show me your hives 46 years from now then comment on mine. I built this box in 1976 supplied by the Diamond Match company in Chico, the only nearby supplier at that time. It made it 40 years and can maybe be sawed down to make into a quilt box.


Let's face it, you should have retired that box 20 years ago...looks like sawdust held together with propolis.


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

^^^. lol
Was thinking what a great fire it'd make.


----------



## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

Well, I put a piece of 1" foam board on one side of the hive five or six weeks ago covering the lower two deeps -- please see the photo:








During today's inspection I noticed the following:

(a) the side of the hive under the foam board (unlike the other uncovered) was very warm to touch, felt like 85°F;

(b) the current brood nest wasn't in the center but shifted towards the warm wall; and most of the bees were too.

(c) the cluster of bees on the slatted rack is always next to the warm wall as well;

(d) in the brood nest, the three frames opposite the warm wall are just empty comb, 
with no stores, no brood on them, bees just ignore them.

They say that the hive should get some direct sun for warmth, so I wasn't sure if it was a good idea to cover up the side exposed to the sun with foam board. But this insulation I guess works better than the sun. 

Thinking about whether I should keep the insulation or let the bees move the nest back to the center and use the flanking flames for insulation with honey and pollen.


----------



## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Here it gets bitterly cold for days on end sometimes. The only thing I insulated is between the tele cover and inner cover. I generally use 1" blue foam board. Ventillation is key to reducing moisture. Bees heat the cluster and should not heat the hive space.


----------



## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

baybee said:


> I hadn't known that condensation on the walls was acceptable. There used to be a lot of condensation in the corners underneath the IC; now, with the quilt box under the IC, whatever little left of the condensation on the IC is soaked by the shavings. But the walls made of thin conifer boards are covered with condensation in the mornings everywhere I can see through the entrance.


How much of the walls can you see through the entrance? I can't see any of the was through the entrance on my hives. I think you are overly concerned about condensation at this point in time and as others have said, San Mateo doesn't even come close for cold temps compared to a lot of the other places in the country. 

Sure, a little frost in the mornings but the bees can handle that. Your quilt box should handle - or minimize - all the condensation on the inner cover. YOu could also use follower boards. Also give them some means for a little airflow / venitlation.


----------



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

odfrank said:


> "Being a first year beginner, I write down everything Odfrank says."
> You better consult with Charlie B if he thinks that is a good idea or not.


I would listen to Oliver Frank over any of the so called "experts" on this site. Now just to warn you, he's a bit gruff and braggy with a disagreeable disposition. However, if you're an attractive woman, you won't have to put up with that.


----------



## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

Charlie B said:


> ... a bit gruff and braggy with a disagreeable disposition...


Sounds like a normal reaction to the "experts" of partial credit.


----------



## Geno (Apr 23, 2015)

Billboard said:


> 30 degrees isnt that cold. Just remeber bees can tolerate cold, its the moisture that kills them


Strong Agreement


----------

