# Indoor wintering



## Ian

Im posting a question for beekeepers who winter their bees indoors. 

We have experienced a cold snap over the last couple of weeks with temps dipping below -30degreesC and wind chills of over -40. 
The hives in my shed have maintained the temp at the 5 degreeC mark throughout this weather. Air exchange through this weather is critical as volumes of air exchange decrease to conserve heat but air exchange must be maintained in order to keep CO2 levels in check. 
That exchange of cold dry air into a warm moist building tends to suck the moisture out of the wintering room. Right now my RH is at 35-40%. 

What is the optimum RH in the wintering shed and how do guys maintain that humidity level, if at all?

Thanks


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## Nick Noyes

Good question. Wish I had an answer also.
What would the ideal RH be inside a bee hive?
I would think 40% RH would be better than 80% RH?


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## mgolden

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?291483-Bees-in-the-Garage-for-the-Winter

For what it is worth, in post 9, there is a CAPA link to a Beaverlodge research paper. Realize your hives will not be raising much brood, but would seem ideal hive relative humidty is 40%.

"This water is important to the bees and they use it to dilute honey, feed brood and flush metabolic wastes from their bodies. Nonetheless, some of this water escapes as a vapour, which in itself is important as brood develops best at 40% relative humidity."


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## Ian

The room is sitting at a RH of 32% right now. A pail of water on the floor would increase that. Wonder if it is actually necessary ?


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## gmcharlie

Ian, I have had several conversations with guys (no real experince yet myself) all say humidity is huge. and less than 50% is what I have been told by a cpl sources. Look up Allen Martens here, hes not on a lot but hes very helpful.


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## forestbee

That is a good timing, have a look at this http://beagleboard.org/project/BeeDome/

Quick answers for you questions:
Humidity: up to RH 60% is good, Can go much higher. So I think you are fine.
CO2: the CO2 level inside the winter cluster is 60,000PPM, out side the cluster is 40,000PPM, also there are researches which show that higher CO2 level increase mite fatalities! Co2 and Humidity will be some how related, so if you keep the Humidity at the level you have now, you should be fine. Be sure that the air is will circulated, since CO2 and will drop to the ground so hives at the bottom may die, some people put empty super on the ground and start stack the hives up.
temperature: 5-8 seem to be the very good range, hot temperature may be a bigger problem. If temperature start go to the 14+ range the bees may die in hours not if in minutes. The bees will start wondering outside the hive and will not be able to get back.

Also ensure to keep them in the dark all the time, red "photographic" room safe light work for short time, some other red light may work, some kind of work and the bees can start see it “like florescent red light” it is much safer to be sure there is no light just in case it got forgotten on.

The link below may interest you:
https://www.facebook.com/mahmoud.el...52420786485.1073741825.100002551975379&type=3
http://capabees.org/content/uploads/2013/02/indoorwinteringhighlights.pdf
http://capabees.org/content/uploads/2013/02/indoorwinteringrequirements.pdf
http://www.backyardbees.ca/files/winteringbeaverlodge.pdf


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Ian, is there not enough moisture in the honey for their needs? I would expect that in the confines of your shed that the bees would regulate the air-flow through the cluster in the same manner as they would were they outside, but without the stress of the frigid Canadian winds. I know I am not wintering bees inside, but I am interested in this and trying to understand the problem. Do bees die from desiccation in Canada?


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## forestbee

Ian, 

You can control the humidity with products like these: 

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/dew-stop-humidity-sensing-fan-switch/992278 
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Electronic-H...-Humidity-Hygrometer-Controller-/111045750855 

Sorry I was confused at my reply before, I thought the concerns are the high (not the low) humidity, I am not familiar with problem due to low humidity since this is not a concern in our area.


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## Ian

Some guys water their hives indoors, others will irrigate the floor. 
I'm not sure what the optimum target is.
More of an issue when wintering on hard honey as they need to liquefy


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## Roland

Ian - I once found a good article, possibly from England, that talked about the effect of RH on "honey" consumption, I put it some where "SAFE", which Christian says translate to "never be found again". I will look tonight.

Crazy Roland


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## Allen Martens

Ian - I not sure anyone really knows what the ideal humidity for indoor wintering is. Lots of opinions and expert advice but I don't know of any study that has addressed this specially. High is bad - common knowledge and personal experience.

Personally, I think hives with lots of syrup can handle low humidity much better than hives with crystallized honey. That one reason I load them with syrup in fall.

How much air are you exchanging per day right know? I am doing about 360000 cfms per day (8 * 15 min* 3000 cfm). How does that compare to your air exchange.


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## forestbee

This is kind of tricky question  Any document I found about the humidity was talking about a range of 40-60 RH, But again I was always concern about the high limits more than the low. 
Another thing which is just a thought, if the store inside the hive is has a very low humidity say 15% (exceeding Canada number #1 grade) which most likely is not, but that is 15% of the store, then the bees consume the sugar (in the hone) and produce energy + CO2 + water.

So the question may be is how crystallized or hard the honey is? 
If 60 RH is the high according to many sources, maybe you just keep the shed humidity around that level?

You may want to try to get something like this http://www.ebay.ca/itm/VS2-10Pcs-Be...699?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a88ae596b (I actually order some for trying) and just pick a sample of the hives in different location at a different heights, put only water for them, if the water is getting decrease rapidly you may want to increase the humidity then?

BTW: I see you have ceiling fans and high ceiling as well, I think you shouldn’t be concerned about the CO2

Good luck and all the best


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## JSL

Ian,

I do not know the optimal humidity level for your situation. When we worked with colonies in flight rooms, we had to keep the humidity up, especially in the winter. 

It is surprising how much water it takes to increase the RH in a large space. I can see why guys would use the floor, as it offers a lot of surface area, but may create other problems with wetting dead bees on the floor. A few cheap humidifiers may do the trick. The old time walk in poultry incubators used to trickle water across a grid of burlap or fine screen and blow a fan through it. You want air movement and surface area to increase RH. A bucket on the floor won't do much.

Joe


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## Ian

Thanks forestbee, your input is very welcome.

Allen, I'm not exactly sure on my air exchange as I don't know how to measure it but what I have going is a 12 inch fan set on a thermostat which is set at 5 degreesC , and a low idle setting. It runs continuous , pulling as much air at idle as a table fan on low to medium. Through this cold weather and with that volume of air exchange my shed temp has not budged off of 5 degrees. 
I'm getting in a CO2 sensor so that I know my air exchange is adequate and not just guessing. The problem is when pulling too much air through during these fridgid nights my RH drops below 30% as low as 22% some nights. Suck the moisture right out of the hives themselves! 
I hate to dump water on the floor as it only makes a mold mess under the pallets. A humidifier is what is needed but for a 45 by 50 room a large one would be required. If at all. 
I don't have much canola honey in my hives this winter as they went into fall very strong and they were looking for syrup when I got back to them. 

How fussy must a beekeeper be?


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## Ian

Ya Joe, your exactly right about wetting the floor. Makes for a mouldy mess anywhere the dead bees don't dry out under the pallets . Rotten dusty mess to clean up while moving the hives out !


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## JD's Bees

The indoor wintering section in The Hive and the Honey Bee has this,
"The ideal relative humidity for a wintering chamber has not been determined. From 50-75% R.H. is considered satisfactory, but levels from 30-44% in Saskatchewan produced no apparent ill effects."


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## grozzie2

Ian said:


> I hate to dump water on the floor as it only makes a mold mess under the pallets. A humidifier is what is needed but for a 45 by 50 room a large one would be required.


For a short term, cheap, solution, you can plug in an electric kettle, and let it boil in the shed for a while. It will accomplish two things.

a) It'll add humidity to the air (steam)
b) it'll raise the temps a bit, so your exchange system will run a bit more (exhasting co2)

I know, a simple kettle isn't going to do much, unless you are filling it constantly, but, you would be surprised how much your humidity goes up, if you boil dry a gallon of water in half an hour.

Another, probably more useful way. Get one of the little heaters meant to keep ice off of a pond or animal watering station. Throw it in a bucket in the bee house. If you want to get real fancy, throw it into some form of animal watering gadget that shuts off when the feeder side is full, then hook up the hose, and forget it. Leave the pond heater in the open side to get evaporation happening.


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## Allen Martens

Water on the floor takes a long time to dry at 5 C as well. I park my atv with a snowblower in the wintering room. After snow blowing it brings in a fair amount of snow. Normally it takes 4 - 6 days for the floor to dry around the atv. Any passive method needs the wet surface area to be large to make much of a difference in humidity. 

A CO2 monitor would allow for cutting back on air exchange and increase humidity. Though on a year like this with big hives the fans would probably kick in to reduce the temperature.


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## Ian

Yes it's amazing how much heat is given off by those hives.


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## Roland

Found a paper by D.L.Nelson of Beaverlodge. Looks old, photo(pdf) of type written page. They say:

40 +/- 2 deg F temp.

"The best RH seems to be between 50-60 deg F"

I read that as a typo for 50-60 RH, seing as how the term RH is used first.

I will keep looking.

Carzy Roland


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## Allen Martens

Roland

I think you proved my point. These recommendation for RH are based on "expert opinion" and the opinions may be logical and bang on but so far I haven't found empirical evidence for them. My guess that in many situation bees do well and maybe even better at lower RH.

The line in the article following your quote says it all "although very little specific information is available on this aspect."

I would love to know the optimal and acceptable ranges for RH based upon research.


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## Rader Sidetrack

This appears to be the paper _Roland _referenced:
http://capabees.org/content/uploads/2013/02/indoorwinteringrequirements.pdf


Another document that discusses indoor humidity:
*"Wintering bees in Canada"*


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## Roland

Allen - I am jealous of your Beaverlodge people, They seem more practical than ours(Don't get me started). Could you approach them to do the research?

Crazy Roland


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## Roland

Yup, Rader, that's the one(are they both the same?)

Roladn


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## Ian

Roland, your feedback is very much appreciated. 
And they call you crazy, ...
helpfull ? Yes


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## Ian

Thanks Graham , my beesource librarian . Lol

Humidity must not be as important factor as everyone claims it to be. I'm constantly told, watch your air flows as low humidity can dry out your shed. Yet very little actual study has been done on that. Perhaps just a "known" fact of indoor wintering

This is just my 8th year of doing it, 5 years primarily. Not a lot of experience with it yet. Still a green horn


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Do we know if bees are capable of regulating the humidity in the hive by fanning? We know that they fan to control the temp, but might they not also fan to move moisture? From your pics it looks like you have no entrance reducers. If there was an upper entrance and air chimneying through I could see the drying out happening, but humidity in the hive might be something they regulate themselves by not fanning as much. 900 hives in a shed is fascinating to me. Having all your eggs in one basket, I can see why you worry about the basket so much.


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## Roland

Still have not found the article I was looking for. It's premise was that the bee's internal water level was very important. I did find and article in the ABJ, OCT 1995, Vol 135, No 10, pages 678-680. Indoor wintering in Minnesota.

back to searching.

Crazy Roland


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## grozzie2

Allen Martens said:


> These recommendation for RH are based on "expert opinion" and the opinions may be logical and bang on but so far I haven't found empirical evidence for them.


"One test result is worth one thousand expert opinions." - Wherner Von Braun

I've got that quote printed in large bold letters, hanging on the wall. When working on client projects (my firm is in the process control engineering field), my motto is pretty simple. Show me the math with a definitive proof, or set up a test jig of some kind. Sometimes, answers are easy to find by just crunching numbers on the computers. Sometimes, it's impossible to isolate all the variables well enough to do a mathematical solution, so we build hardware.



> I would love to know the optimal and acceptable ranges for RH based upon research.


One thing I've noticed since taking up bees a few years ago, tons of opinions out there, mostly based on 'works for me' type of information. Heck, the local journal has an 'ask the beekeeper' section, and there are 3 to 5 DIFFERENT answers to each question, all from long time beekeepers. It kind of emphasizes the point, and the adage 'ask a dozen beekeepers, get a dozen answers' I've seen so many times. We already see that in this thread, numerous different sources quoting different values for what is the proper RH for the bees wintering in the shed.

But on the question you pose here, I start to wonder, are folks asking the wrong question ? Two data points I base this on. I read endlessly about the 'good old days pre varroa', and the attitude seems to be, prior to varroa, put bees in boxes, wait, harvest. Post varroa, it's a big change. This makes me wonder, on a question like this, regarding RH, folks are asking what is best for the bees, and that may not be the correct question. Maybe the correct question is 'What RH level is worst for the mites ?' If the mites are more sensative to humidity levels, maybe there is a tradeoff at a point that puts a mild stress on the bees, but a very large stress on the mites, which would result in a better outcome than a humidity level that's optimal for the bees, but also optimal for the mites.

For doing raw research, this question is actually much easier to answer than the 'what is best for the bees' question. Line up 10 incubators, and place a controlled mite population in each, probably in a petri dish, along with a food source for them. Keep each one at a different humidity level, controlled, then wait and ultimately the plot one is looking for, average survival time of the mites, vs humidity in the various incubators, which are all kept at a constant temp, equivalent to the inside of a wintering hive. It's FAR easier to control the variables in this case, than trying to control the variables in a shed full of hives.

For this particular question, I know somebody like Ian certainly cant be risking a shed full of his livelihood to do experiments along this line, but, for the experiment I just listed, the folks at beaverlodge probably have all of the equipment needed in inventory, and could produce a hard result in 2 or 3 months, if somebody just set down and did it.


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## Roland

Found this abstract:

Determining the amount of water condensed above and below the winter cluster of honey bees in a North - European Climate
publication date: Apr 1, 2013
Send a summary of this page to someone via email.
Previous | Next

Journal of Apicultural Research

Vol. 52 (2) pp.81-87
DOI



Back to looking.....

Crazy Roland

10.3896/IBRA.1.52.2.17
Date

April 2013
Article Title


Determining the amount of water condensed above and below the winter cluster of honey bees in a North - European Climate
Author(s)


Kalle Toomemaa, Ants-Johannes Martin, Marika Mänd and Ingrid H Williams
Abstract


The amount of water condensed in the hives of overwintering honey bee colonies was investigated. In autumn, condensers of thin sheet metal were placed in hives above and below the frames of the winter nests of the experimental colonies. The condensed water could flow into plastic bottles for collection. Most of the water collected during the winter condensed on the lower devices, only 2.5 ± 1.31% on the upper ones. At an average food consumption of 7.17 ± 0.35 kg, the amount of water condensed was 445.27 ± 45.8 g. The total amount of water released by such food consumption would be 4.88 ± 0.24 kg. The upper condensers increased moisture and wet surfaces in the hive, whereas the lower ones did not. Test and control colonies did not differ significantly in food consumption and bee mortality. The top condenser created additional airspace above the cluster and probably metabolic water vapour released from the cluster, having risen up first started descending, but due to the longer distance to the lower condenser it cooled more and condensed on the hive walls. The results show that in hives without top ventilation, it would be appropriate to remove descended water vapour from below of the nest or to retain it in the hive for spring consumption of the bees. It enables to reduce humidity in the nest of bees without strengthened ventilation to withdraw increased heat loss and enforces the bees to rise the metabolic rate and heat production, which in turn would increase food consumption and water production.
Keywords


honey bee, wintering, water vapour, moisture, condensation
Full text


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## Fusion_power

I came here just for the purpose of posting one critical piece of information that so far is lacking in this thread. Fortunately, Roland's post above mine gives the supporting evidence. So far, the discussion has been around humidity levels in a bee wintering facilty. But there is one HUGE elephant in this outhouse. Simple sugar is composed of C6H12O6 molecules for fructose and glucose. When it is metabolized, one of the byproducts is WATER!!!!

Think of it this way, 6 - CO2 is one carbon with two oxygen. The O2 comes from air and the C comes from the sugar molecule. That leaves H12O6 which if you think about it is 6 - H2O. Please investigate this and I think you will find that the colder it gets, the more honey consumed, and the more water they release. The bulk of the water is NOT from the moisture content of the honey. It is from the metabolized sugar!

This does not necessarily help with determining correct humidity levels, but it will help to understand why humidity is not usually a problem in a wintering cluster. The bees are not significantly affected by external humidity, they generate all the water they need in the cluster. What is a problem and has caused numerous failures in wintering facilities is carbon dioxide buildup.


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## Roland

Fusion power - all true , but if iIunderstand Ian's concern, it is that to remove the CO2 with make up air, he is introducing very dry air when the outside temperatures are vary low. The question then becomes "Are the bees eating honey JUST for the metabolic water to maintain internal hydration?" I do not know, so I am continuing to search for the article I had in mind.


Crazy Roland


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## Fusion_power

Roland, one article I read a few years ago suggested using a heat exchanger on the exhaust from a wintering facilty because it allows heat to be returned to the facility instead of expelled as waste. I recall some discussion about the effect of humidity on the system. You might do a search with this in mind.


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## Ian

Fusion_power
It's all about canola honey and dry air


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## Fusion_power

Ian, understood, and recognize your concern. Canola honey is still sugar and the chemical breakdown is still 6 water molecules each time you break the shared hydrogen bonds. That translates to a huge amount of water released from normal metabolism. The question to answer has less to do with humidity in the room and more to do with humidity in the cluster.


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## sjj

Ian said:


> Thanks Graham , my beesource librarian . Lol
> 
> Humidity must not be as important factor as everyone claims it to be. I'm constantly told, watch your air flows as low humidity can dry out your shed. Yet very little actual study has been done on that. Perhaps just a "known" fact of indoor wintering
> 
> This is just my 8th year of doing it, 5 years primarily. Not a lot of experience with it yet. Still a green horn



Assessing an acoustic noise in the shed will help you find the optimum air quality for your bees. 
You will immediately hear how good or bad the conditions are and probably change the air flow rate there. 
Consider purchasing a DIGITAL SOUND NOISE LEVEL METER and DATA LOGGER with USB, SD Memory Card Slot and the Software on CD. Plus a tripod and a long usb cable.


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## Adrian Quiney WI

As I understand it, indoor wintering was standard practice here in the Midwest in the 1900's. In "50 years of Bees" by CC Miller I remember seeing a picture of his worker "Philo" carrying bees into a cellar. A google search later I found Gleanings in Bee Culture, Volume 43 as a free ebook. Page 185 has an article about wintering in Dr Miller's cellar. 
Is there anyone old enough, or versed in beekeeping history, who knows what the tipping point was that made outdoor wintering the most common practice today?


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## Ian

Fusion_power said:


> Ian, understood, and recognize your concern. Canola honey is still sugar and the chemical breakdown is still 6 water molecules each time you break the shared hydrogen bonds. That translates to a huge amount of water released from normal metabolism. The question to answer has less to do with humidity in the room and more to do with humidity in the cluster.


Fusion_power, when indoor wintering beekeepers refer to canola honey as being a point of concern they are refering to the bees inability to access that honey because it granulates so hard and dry. The bees need to access water to be able to dilute the canola stores otherwise they can not access any of it at all. Clusters in the shed that hold a large mass are able to gather condensation within the hive to use, other hives that can not access the condensation will be found as a starved cluster over sheets of canola honey. 

As a beekeeper who collect massive canola crops, I manage my hives throughout the year to minimize the storage of canola honey in the brood chambers and try to manage the hives so that I can back fill the chamber with syrup. 

Yesterday my RH level in the shed was 31% and last night it dipped to 25%. Thats pretty dry,


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## Ian

sjj said:


> Assessing an acoustic noise in the shed will help you find the optimum air quality for your bees.


I have never heard that before. What does the measured acoustic noise tell you?


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## Ian

Fusion_power said:


> The question to answer has less to do with humidity in the room and more to do with humidity in the cluster.


Not exactly, in a dry environment they are going to need more moisture to keep hydrated. The question is there enough moisture being consumed daily to satisfy their needs? 

guys up here will water their hives because of this very issue. My questions is what RH levels are we targeting to achieve optimum conditons?
If its 50-60% as some of the references suggest here, then that means I need to be adding water to the RH 25% shed air


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## Allen Martens

Fusion_power said:


> The question to answer has less to do with humidity in the room and more to do with humidity in the cluster.


Interesting thought. If bees can regulate the humidity within a winter cluster effectively, then only the bees that are located on the outside of the cluster would be exposed to very dry conditions and only for a little while. I am curious how much of the humidity is lost when bees need to circulate air to remove CO2. I bet it would be lot. Using just honey metabolism for humidity regulation is much different than also having access to water. I wonder if anyone has research humidity inside the winter cluster as winter clusters have been studied.

As a side note, I did some calculations with a lot of assumptions. If hive stores 15 L of syrup and assuming simple sugar molecular composition and 2:1 syrup cured to half the water being removed from the syrup, then metabolism of the syrup would result in 8.1 L of water and an addition 3 L of water would be released from the water in the syrup. Over 160 days and 1000 hives that would be 65 L of water released per day. (According to my calculations). That is a substantial amount of water being released but as Ian's reading are showing, it is not making much of a dent in the RH. Interesting.


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## gmcharlie

Ian said:


> I have never heard that before. What does the measured acoustic noise tell you?


I think he was trying to refer to the fact that distressed bees make more noise for a variatey of reasons.


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## sjj

gmcharlie said:


> I think he was trying to refer to the fact that distressed bees make more noise for a variatey of reasons.


I would use more than one RH meter. Secondly, I would calibrate all of them using for example salts. 
Noise analysis can help but you have to have the comparative data.


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## Rader Sidetrack

The link is to a Masters thesis [University of Pretoria (South Africa)] titled "Homeostasis: Humidity and water relations in honeybee colonies (Apis Mellifera)":

http://upetd.up.ac.za/thesis/submitted/etd-10022009-135223/unrestricted/dissertation.pdf
A big document - 5.7 Mb. It does include study in wintering conditions, but of course wintering in South Africa may be somewhat different than wintering in Canada.


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## Ian

gmcharlie said:


> I think he was trying to refer to the fact that distressed bees make more noise for a variatey of reasons.





sjj said:


> I would use more than one RH meter. Secondly, I would calibrate all of them using for example salts.
> Noise analysis can help but you have to have the comparative data.


???


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## Ian

65 Liters of water evaporation is a lot. Works out to about 65ml per hive. That would seem to be more than enough hydration provided daily
Assuming Allen's calculations are accurate


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## sjj

ian said:


> ...
> What is the optimum rh in the wintering shed ...
> 
> Thanks


75% rh.


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## Roland

I believe sjj in speaking of salts that pull moisture from the air until they have reached an equilibrium of the water in the salt solution and the air(solid salt must be in contact with air?). Each salt is different, For example, at 5 deg C. magnesium nitrate wants 58.86 RH and Sodium Nitrate wants 78.57 RH. There are others, but I staed away from some toxic ones.

sjj - can you site a source of you info? 

Crazy Roland


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## Roland

Adrian - just a guess, but historically did cellar wintering decline after package bees became readily available?

Crazy Roland


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## Ian

Roland said:


> Adrian - just a guess, but historically did cellar wintering decline after package bees became readily available?
> 
> Crazy Roland


It increased here when packages became less available


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## Ian

Roland said:


> I believe sjj in speaking of salts that pull moisture from the air until they have reached an equilibrium of the water in the salt solution and the air(nd


And why?


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## Allen Martens

Great paper Graham - recent and lots of citations

from page 8 and corroborated by several studies "suggested an optimum relative humidity in the brood nest of 40 % RH".

grozzie2 - looks like mite research as a carrot to determine a low threshold for RH is a no go. From page 7 "The parasitic mite Varroa jacobsoni, which reproduces in the brood cells, shows lower reproductive success at higher humidity"


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## Roland

Ian, if I understand how the salts work, the solution works to maintain a set RH. If the solution where on a scale, and it gained weight, your RH is too high. If the solution on the scale looses weight. the RH is too low. The solution absorbs or evaporates water to maintain the set RH.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian

Ohh, it's used to maintain the RH in the building. Quite interesting. 
Roland, your background knowledge on all these topics is quite amazing. 
What kind of apparatus would be needed to use this idea in a 27,000 cubic foot room?


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## Roland

Probably not feasible to maintain a room, but very applicable to calibrating RH meters in a small enclosure. OR, you could make your own RH meter by putting a sample of the salt solution on a small lab scale(read:cheap, down and dirty). It's change in weight would tell you if you need to add or subtract water from the air.

I have a PDF on the subject, PM if you want it, or should we let Rader handle it?

Crazy Roland


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## Ian

I have a RH Meter , much simpler


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## Roland

When was the last time it was calibrated? The salts can be used to verify calibration.

View attachment Salt%20solutions%20FOR%20Isotherm.pdf


I ATTEMPTED to attach a file about salts. Any images of "Business Models" are not mine.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian

The RH out side is 75%, the RH inside the shed remains at 30%. The fans have kicked in to keep the shed temperature cooled to 5 degreesC as a few Bomy days of -5 and -10's have passed by. That increased air volume is keeping the RH levels low in the shed. 
What is your shed's RH sitting at Allen ?


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## Allen Martens

I haven't really been monitoring RH. My cheap RH meter quite working. Bought a new one today. 

My bigger problem yesterday was my fan quit working. Looks like the fan got blocked by some ice after the warmer day Monday. I took the fan out and started testing it today only to find that it was working perfectly. By the time I had it up and working the humidity was up to 56% and the temperature was up to 7.5C (which isn't a problem). After running the fan for an hour the humidity had dropped to 40% and the temperature was down to 4C.

Last night and this morning I opened the 14 ft door for about 10 min. Talk about quick air exchange. The temperature was below freezing both times.

I will update you in a couple of days about RH when everything settles back to normal.


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## sjj

Roland said:


> When was the last time it was calibrated? The salts can be used to verify calibration.
> 
> View attachment 8567
> 
> 
> I ATTEMPTED to attach a file about salts. Any images of "Business Models" are not mine.
> 
> Crazy Roland


It is not complicated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT5VkzWyRyM


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## Ian

So I found a neat little trick to figure out the condensation within the bee hive, pull the feed plug and see if there is moisture on the cap. 
So at a wintering room of 30% RH about half if the random plugs I pulled had moisture on them. That is telling me the room is too dry and I need to add moisture to the air to allow more condensation within the hive. 

I'm going to bring in a humidifier and see how the bees respond to a room RH of 45% . 
I tossed a bit of snow on a few enterances and the bees moved towards it and calmly drank it all down as it melted. No panic yet


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## irwin harlton

they will take water out of a styrofoam cup,placed on the entrance ,with pin holes in the bottom....so I've heard


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## grozzie2

To give them water, this would work too.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2Pcs-Beekee...ed-Bee-Beekeeper-Equip-Hive-Kit-/191007975730

I ordered a few last year, they are cheap and free shipping. Used them this fall to feed 2:1 to the lighter nucs. They worked fine with smaller pop bottles, worked ok with a wine bottle too. With the larger 2L bottles, it wouldn't sit well on the landing board, and tipped over. With the larger 2L cheap plastic pop bottles, the bottle is not strong enough to stay intact when you invert it, and the water just gushes out.

Before we used them to feed, I experimented a bit, and had 3 of them just sitting on top of hives, full of water. My results were

2 liter cheap plastic pop bottles from superstore, dont hold up to being inverted.
355 ml coke bottle, plastic, worked just fine, and stayed upright on top of the hive for a couple days, then blew over when the bottle was empty
750ml glass wine bottle worked fine, stayed upright the whole time, survived wind that the plastic coke bottle didn't.

When I did the experiments with bottles, they were sitting on top of the hives, and the bees found the water source within a couple of hours, and when it was warm and sunny, there was a constant stream of bees taking water from them.

It was a quick / easy / cheap way to feed a few 5 frame nucs, but, probably not practical for scaling up to hundreds. I used the wine bottles when we fed the nucs which dont have a feeder inside.


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## Ian

That was exactly my experience as well . But a terrible amount of work


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## Allen Martens

Ian - Was there any correlation between hive size and condensation? Are you wanting there to be some condensation inside the lid of the high? Is that an indication that the inhive environment is too moist or just right?


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## beebreeder

Ian is this problems with the new storage facility that you did not have in the old one, if so what is different in the new one


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## Ian

Allen Martens said:


> Ian - Was there any correlation between hive size and condensation? Are you wanting there to be some condensation inside the lid of the high? Is that an indication that tkhe inhive environment is too moist or just right?


Allen, all my hives look satisfyingly awesome so I do not see any difference in hive size, they are just all big. I'm seeing condensation in some hives and not others. Why I don't know yet but thinking if I raise the RH in the shed I should get condensation in all if them so that there is moisture accessible for the hives to access. 

My fear is creating an environment with too high if RH which will cause an environment for damaging mold

I need to figure out that target RH


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## Ian

beebreeder said:


> Ian is this problems with the new storage facility that you did not have in the old one, if so what is different in the new one


It's not a new problem , just I'm trying to figure out how to manage it better. Before I would dump water on the floor which created mold issues. Also I would sometimes over due it and cause internal mold issues. 

From now on, working fresh with a new facility, I'm going to try to do things because I know and not just think. 
I think...


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## Allen Martens

I've never paid much attention to low humidity though a cold winter like this has been should maybe get me thinking about it.

I am usually more concerned with high RH. If I see any condensation under the lid I get paranoid. This first year in my current wintering shed I had high RH problems because I poured the concrete in early October. Most of the winter it was about 50 - 60% if I recall correctly. Door knobs and the edges of the doors had frost on them. There seemed to be a lot of mold in dead hives that year and the hives didn't come out of winter looking very good.

Are you confident your RH monitor is calibrated accurately?


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## Ian

Someone here mentioned checking my calibration with salts. I have no idea. You are right. I'm going to buy an old school RH tester for comparison. 

I dropped some snow on the landings and they moved out and consumed the entire thing. Bees will not do that if they aren't thirsty. So the simple answer is water them...but ya...you know as well as I do what that means.

Right now my RH reading is 25% at 5 degreesC. My fan is off its idle setting. I do vent more than others.

I have been getting feed back from others that a dry shed like mine will dry out my honey stores as the bees suck out the moisture


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## Ian

I bought a humidifier which will dump 4 gallons of water into the air over a 24 hour period, set on a RH setting. I set it for 50%, will see how the condensation looks after a week at that RH level.


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## Fusion_power

I'd like to restate the problem and offer a few suggestions for resolution.

Problem Statement: Indoor wintering in a cold climate can trigger low humidity issues in the storage facility. 

2. Bees metabolize sugar and release water both from the water contained in the honey and from metabolizing sugar in a (C6H12O6) + (6-O2) -> (6-CO2) + (6-H20). (I have asked a chemist to verify that this is the correct conversion, don't just take my word for it) The calculated amount of moisture released per colony per day should be in the range of 65 ml given storage facility temperatures of 5C and air flow to maintain low CO2 levels. Large colonies will have less trouble regulating moisture levels, smaller colonies will have increased difficulty.

3. Canola honey granulates into hard crystals that must be dissolved before they can be metabolized. Since canola is a part of the summer feed cycle, there will be some in the broodnest even though syrup is fed liberally as preparation for winter. Other honeys may also granulate requiring added water to dissolve before consumption.

4. Bees may access water as it condenses inside the hive. This only occurs if relative humidity is high enough to support condensation. Several sources suggest 40% RH is appropriate for bees. RH inside the colony would significantly vary vs external RH. This leads to a need to verify RH inside the colony and ensure it is high enough to support condensation. In other words, RH inside the colony should be in the 100% range to support condensation but should not be so high that mold problems occur.

5. The fundamental problem boils down to a need to regulate 3 variables: 
Facility temperature - regulated via fans on thermostats to exhaust air.
Facility CO2 levels - regulated via CO2 sensors
Facility RH - regulated by some form of push/pull humidifier


A. The suggestion has been made to provide each colony with a water bottle. This is viable, but labor intensive. On a first pass evaluation, this is not the best solution. Similar solutions involving drip emitters, in-hive water containers, etc. suffer from the same weaknesses.

B. A suggestion was made to use a chemical salt saturation method to regulate humidity. This probably would be very costly to implement.

C. My suggestion would be to put in a modified swamp cooler to raise the humidity in the room by passing warm air over a large fabric sheet which is sprayed with water from an RH sensor set to trigger on a timed basis any time RH goes below 35%.


Ian, I think these suggestions would be appropriate. How many of them do you have in place already?

Put in at least 2 exhaust fans and set each one with a CO2 trigger and a temperature trigger. One of the fans should be on DC battery in case AC power fails or if the primary fan fails for any reason. If I were doing this, I would get a squirrel cage fan from a car heater and appropriate sensors to turn it on.

An air conditioner should be installed and set to turn on at 8C. This will keep the internal temperature below the critical threshold for those spring days that are just a bit too warm, but not yet warm enough to move the bees outdoors.

Overhead fans should be installed and left on permanently to keep air circulating to the floor level to prevent CO2 buildup near the floor. Would it be possible to pull exhaust air from floor level? Would it be better than pulling warmer air from higher in the storage facility?

Put in a swamp cooler or a high capacity humidifier water mist sprayer set on an RH sensor that turns on the spray for a few seconds any time RH falls below 40%. There would be some issues with tuning this system correctly. How long should the sprayer stay on? How many times per hour should it be on?


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## JSL

Ian,

When we do winter inspections, the condensation differences usually have to do with brood in the colonies. We are looking at outdoor colonies though. Our Carni's have very little visible condensation, why the Italians can have a considerable amount of condensation depending on how much brood they are sitting on.

Joe


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## Ian

Some excellent feedback guys!

This is exactly how I like to hash things out, lots of feedback 

Fusion , excellent summary of the situation, very well spelled out. 

My goal at the end of all this is to have a few methods of assessing the hives condition and factoring that back to the sheds RH to find the correct balance so that my bees have adequate hydration throughout these long cold winters but not over doing it so that I'm actually damaging the equipment with mold growth

I remember one year I dumped water on the floor all winter, by the time I moved the hives out, as I swept the bees away so that I could access pallets I ended up working in a tremendously dusty shed. Even with a mask my lungs were heavy. 

Also another year, I headed off completely with maintaining RH, the shed maintained a very dry environment. I found hives dead over sheets of hard honey. Maybe 2%? Maybe more stress to the other hives as well

I think everyone knows what I'm on about now


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## grozzie2

Ian said:


> I'm going to buy an old school RH tester for comparison.


Really easy way to cross check one when you buy it. Go to Canadian Tire, they have cheap little thermometer + RH meters on the shelf, in the weather gadgets section. There will be a couple dozen different RH meters amongst them all. Cross check the readings that you can see thru the plastic. If 10 of them agree, and 2 read different

a) You now know which of the 12 are not correct
b) You have a pretty good idea of what the actual reading is

Now buy one of the good ones, costs about 5 bucks.

I did exactly that earlier in the week, wife wants a thermometer out the kitchen window on the new house. There was a dozen of them, 9 read the same, 3 read various different readings. I bought one of the 9, and she will find it in the stocking on christmas morning.


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## Ian

I'm going to try out this salt test as described in that YouTube link also. 
Good trick to know


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## Fusion_power

I ran this question by a chemist friend and got the following:



> 100 grams of honey when metabolized will release:
> 
> 15 grams of physically bound water (USDA nutrient database says 17 grams)
> 125 grams of carbon dioxide
> 51 grams of water from sugar
> 
> To answer the not-asked part of the question, the reaction requires 91 grams of oxygen (0.480 cubic meters of air at standard conditions).
> 
> At 0 C, it would require about 17 cubic meters of air to dissolve that much water. So the amount of air required to remove the water is around 35 times greater than that required to remove the carbon dioxide. Warmer air temperatures dissolve more water.
> 
> The reaction would release 304,000 calories of heat. If an overwintering hive weighs 90 pounds that would raise the temperature of the hive by 8 degrees C for every 100 grams of honey consumed.
> 
> Because all of the products of this reaction are volatile, the rate of consumption of honey could be measured by weighing the hive as long as the water wasn't freezing inside the hive.
> 
> Also, it is not necessary to remove the water by ventilation, it could also be removed by condensation. An example of this would be leaving the dog in the car on a cold day, and coming back out to find all the inside surfaces of the windows covered with condensation. The same principle could work in a bee-room during the winter. I'd probably arrange for a thin membrane that gets sun part of the day so that it could auto defrost.


Here is my concept of the control system you need.

1. Install an external temperature sensor set up as a 3 way switch. If the outside temperature is above 5C, then switch electricity to an air conditioner that is set to turn on any time internal temperature reaches 7C. If the outside temperature is 5C or below, switch electricity to the inside temperature sensor and set it to turn on the fan any time internal temperature hits 5C. This setup will have the effect of using outside air to regulate temperature inside the building so long as outside air is below 5C. It will use the air conditioner to cool down the interior any time outside air is above 5C. These sensors should be redundant since a single failure could be catastrophic for the bees.

2. Install CO2 sensors and set them to turn on the exhaust fans any time interior air reaches about 60,000 PPM. These would in effect bypass the temperature switching system. You might prefer to install separate exhaust fans just to exhaust the CO2.

3. Install a humidity sensor and set it to turn on either a high capacity humidifier or a swamp cooler sprayer for about 5 minutes per hour any time RH is below 40%. I don't know for sure if high RH should also be handled, but if so, turn on the exhaust fans any time RH is above 60%.

4. Install an alarm that is separate from the above and will either call you or blow a horn or something any time the temperature or CO2 reach critical levels. I would suggest that 8C interior temperature or CO2 at 70,000 PPM would be appropriate alarm trigger points.

One huge caution, the air conditioner for this setup would have to be capable of handling about 1,000,000 btu's per hour. Instead of an air conditioner, you might want to move the bees outdoors as soon as temperatures get into the range of 7C, or perhaps you could set up a system to use snow to regulate internal temperature.

One other note, if you put in a heat exchanger, you could maintain internal RH with a much simpler setup. It would cost more to run, but would not be as complex as the above system.


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## Ian

According to your chemist friend, my concern should be more so focused on water removal from the shed. 

Which I seem to be doing very well. 

I have been testing my sensors and I'm finding variability between all of them. How the heck am I to measure something with all my gauges showing large margins of error on an inconsistent basis...

Where is that salt...


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## Allen Martens

Fusion_power said:


> The calculated amount of moisture released per colony per day should be in the range of 65 ml given storage facility temperatures of 5C


You are right about that value Fusion. Was just rereading this thread and realized I typed 65 L per day (which would amount to 10400 L per season) instead of 65 mL.


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## gmcharlie

Just watching here, but have a quick question, are you still cooling or adding heat? I have been pondering doing this on a small scale here in IL (2-300 hives) everything I read say the candians are still adding cooling even at -5? One thing that has rreally stopped me is trying to calculate the heat load given off by bees.


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## Allen Martens

Even at -30 C still removing heat unless the hives are small going into winter.


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## Adrian Quiney WI

How are the air vents managed so that they still let air in and out, but not light?


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## Ian

We install light traps


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## sharpdog

Here is an interesting study from the Beaverlodge Research Station in Alberta. It's an old study regarding indoor wintering. Good info. 
http://capabees.org/content/uploads/2013/02/indoorwinteringhighlights.pdf


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## Adrian Quiney WI

How does a light trap allow air movement, but not admit outside light?


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## sharpdog

I only have a small wintering building (14x16) with 70 singles in it. I have installed a little PLC ( Programmable Logic Controller) to do my HVAC control. The PLC I use is made by Control by Web. It is the X310 model. It's capable of measuring upto 4 temperatures, humidity, and controlling 4 different outputs based on those temps or RH. It can keep your building within .5C of set point. I didn't splurge for the RH sensor, but now think that I should order it. ($90). 

The beauty of this controller is that it can send temp alarms via email to upto 3 email addresses, I have set it up to auto email me all temps and fan/heater statuses every 4 hours. As this is my first year in this building, using this controller, I wanted to get regular updates proving it hasn't locked up, or stopped working. So far it's been flawless.

I can also log in over the Internet to see the status of everything, and trend temperatures or humidity.

Pretty slick unit, so far no regrets.
Oh and it's pretty cheep too $240.00
Luke


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## Ian

Wow , that's the ticket !


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## Allen Martens

Well Ian, the longer this thread you started gets the more paranoid I am getting. I think next year I will probably have real time monitoring via the internet in place. I am more concerned about the CO2 than the RH.

Looking at the numbers Fusion dog posted for 100 g of honey/syrup per day
“100 grams of honey when metabolized will release:

15 grams of physically bound water (USDA nutrient database says 17 grams)
125 grams of carbon dioxide
51 grams of water from sugar

To answer the not-asked part of the question, the reaction requires 91 grams of oxygen (0.480 cubic meters of air at standard conditions) “

These are the same numbers I got from my calculations for consuming 15 L of syrup per winter, though in reality that is the amount I feed and only 10 – 12 L gets consumed. Looking at these numbers I have determined the changes in O2 and CO2 after one day with no air exchange. There are a lot of assumptions being made here like all sugars have the composition glucose, the system is closed, the consumption of O2 and release of CO2 and H20 doesn’t change the density of air and that there is a cubic meter of air per hive in the wintering room. 

Depending upon RH there are about 1250 g of air per cubic meter at 5 C. O2 composes about 21 % of this so the mass of O2 is 263 g. After 91 g of oxygen is consumed, the concentration is down to 14 %.

A cubic meter of air contains about 0.5 g or 400 ppm of CO2. The release of 125 g of CO2 increases the concentration to 100,000 ppm.

Building are considered unhealthy at 1,000 ppm, humans show sign of CO2 toxicity after being exposed to 50,000 for 30 min and are unconscious in a few min at 100,000 ppm. According to Randy Oliver (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/old-bees-cold-bees-no-bees-part-1/) bees tolerate 60000 ppm inside the cluster. Another interesting point is at lowered O2 levels bees enter ultra low metabolic rate where they consume less food and live longer.

It seems to me that the current recommendations for air exchange that are often stated for indoor wintering may be higher than needed. Cutting back on air exchange in cold weather would increase the RH dramatically. Temperature might become a problem though I am comfortable with 6 to 8 C.

Currently, my readings for RH are running between 40 % and 50 % according to my devise. Inside my house I got readings as low as 22 % before I started humidifying so it seems be relatively accurate. I have no idea about CO2 levels but I am extremely curious to see how it changes with different air exchange regimes.


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## Allen Martens

Sharpdog that's what I am looking to do for next year as well. I want to monitor CO2 as well - especially at floor level. Great idea.


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## sharpdog

Here is what the interface looks like on the x310. Sorry its so small, I can't figure out my wife's MAC.

















Luke


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## Allen Martens

Very nice Luke.

Images are nice and big when I clicked on them.


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## Ian

Same here Allen , I'm investing into a CO2 sensor as soon as I get the chance after Christmas. Everything revolves around the CO2 exchange and after reading all your chemistry there, there is no doubt in my mind that I should be more focused on achieving the proper CO2 targets rather than just running my fans to generally regulate fresh air and manage temps. 
My wintering room is set up with 10 ceiling fans so I can mix the air within the room very efficiently if needed. If I knew the CO2 levels, I would run my fans accordingly and perhaps less, which in turn would save heat loss and humidity losses. 
As the temps increase outside, my fans would ramp up to keep the shed cool and eliminating all CO2 concerns but it's this kind of cold cold cold weeks on end of terrible cold that has the fans resting in idle which creates the perfect environment for gasses to layer and provide a toxic wintering environment.

I'm fussing over RH levels, I probably should be fussing over CO2 and CO levels instead


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## Ian

Oh , and thanks for all that chemistry input. You sound extremely smart saying all that stuff, so if you don't mind, I'm going to cut and paste ALL that and use it for further reference. 

This is the kind of stuff I have been searching for!


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## Ian

Yes, I have heard the bees go somewhat dormantish at higher concentration of CO2, consuming less food AND the person speaking about this to me also mentioned in this prolonged environment mites tend to off fall dead more than in lower CO2 levels. 
This definetly is something that would need close attention as the margin of error would be slim


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## sjj

sharpdog said:


> ...


You should be able to control the main parameter (temperature, humidity, air flow rate) without electricity, internet or telemetry. This criterion definitely exists and is important.


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## Allen Martens

Ian said:


> Yes, I have heard the bees go somewhat dormantish at higher concentration of CO2, consuming less food AND the person speaking about this to me also mentioned in this prolonged environment mites tend to off fall dead more than in lower CO2 levels.
> This definetly is something that would need close attention as the margin of error would be slim


Yep. I won't be the person blazing the trail here. However, it is good to know that a spike in CO2 won't harm the bees. In spring during warm weather I usually open the doors to cool things down at night and then turn the exhaust fan off during the day. I can usually keep the temperature blow 12 C this way.


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## Allen Martens

Ian said:


> This is the kind of stuff I have been searching for!


I have learned a lot in from this thread as well. Thanks for starting it.

BTW, If anyone else crunches the numbers and either verifies or disputes my numbers, please post this. This discussion has been very useful for those of us who winter indoors.


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## gmcharlie

I am interested in how you sized the Refer units???


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## Ian

Charlie, that's next on my list


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## Roland

Calcium Hydroxide(slaked Lime), was always the test for CO2 in school. You decanted(poured off the top) from a solution with lime on the bottom, and bubbled air(or gas to be tested) through the clear liquid. The CO2 forms Calcium Carbonate(Limestone) , with is milky. 

I do not know if that info is of value, but if you have time, it would be cheap to make a waterfall(think display fountain) of lime solution and add water while removing CO2.


Crazy Roland


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## Fusion_power

This is a very rough approximation, I am working with inadequate information re how much honey/sugar a colony would consume in 24 hours. A small colony would probably consume less than a larger colony. A colony with a large amount of brood will probably consume more than a colony with no brood. The more sugar consumed, the more calories of heat generated and the larger the cooling unit required.

304,000 calories converts to roughly 1,200 BTU's over 24 hours. This equates to 50 BTU's per colony per hour. I am going to double that to allow for a large colony actively rearing brood so lets work from 100 BTU per colony per hour. For 1000 colonies in a building, you would need an air conditioning unit sized at 100,000 BTU's. If you put fully redundant systems in place, then you need 200,000 BTU's of cooling capacity to properly cool the building.

This does NOT take into account external heat load. Lets say you have an external ambient air temperature of 15C and the building is not so very well insulated. Now the system has to be able to manage a temp drop from 15C down to 5C. That extra 10C of cooling capacity would at least double the size unit(s) needed. This means you have to figure how high an external temp you will keep the bees indoors for. The higher the outside temp, the larger the unit needed. This can be controlled by insulating the storage facility very well. My best guess is that the highest external temp the storage facility might need to handle is about 30C (86F). This is based on the current heat wave hitting large parts of the eastern U.S. which has sent temps into the mid 70's in late December.

The big takeaway from this post is 100 btu per colony per hour as a rough average load for an air conditioner to handle. Building conditions would have to be calculated for your particular building and climate.


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## Ian

How much honey is being consumed to create that 100 btu per colony ?
That seems like a lot to me


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## Ian

The advantage Allen and I have here is that our winters are cold and consistent. This creates the optimum conditions to house the hives. 

I just left home to head out to Calgary for Christmas. At home it's -34 degreesC right now, in Calgary it's -5, and with some above freezing plus 9 weather forecasted later in the week. If I got that heat wave back home, I'd be trying to cool the shed wishing the bees were outside to fly

I say we have optimum cold weather to make this indoor wintering thing work but I really mean, my winter weather sucks!!


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## sharpdog

Notes on ventalation taken from "beekeeping in western canada" 1997.








Luke


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## Fusion_power

Ian, the numbers I worked from all are based on 100 calories per colony per hour which is equivalent to roughly 200 grams of honey converted per day or 8.3 grams per hour. This is definitely on the high side, roughly 4 times as much as the bees should consume under worst case conditions. I am allowing for heavy spring brood rearing which will significantly influence honey consumption. This may not apply to your conditions, however, should be considered by anyone wintering indoors in a climate with more up and down variation of temperatures.

Just for thoughts, but have you considered snow banking the building? It seems probable that snow up to the eaves or even completely covering the building would significantly moderate strong winds with -30's temperatures.


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## Ian

-34 degrees last night, the shed maintained its temp with fans at low idle


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## gmcharlie

intersting and decent math... I am pondering... your comment on brood has me wondering. when bees are kept at a constant, and in the dark, do they start brrod at all or do tehy stay pretty dormant??


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## Ian

Allen, do you want to answer that? 
I have never opened a indoor wintered hive, because of obvious reasons. But when I put them out in spring, very little to no brood is present .


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## Allen Martens

I find little to no brood in spring as well. I have often wondered if there is a window for oxalic acid treatment right after the bees have been moved out.


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## Allen Martens

sharpdog said:


> Notes on ventalation taken from "beekeeping in western canada" 1997.
> View attachment 8633
> 
> 
> Luke


These numbers are in line with the ones we have come up with here.


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## Ian

Yes as soon as they were moved out,OA would be ideal, but... That's has always been my plans


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## Allen Martens

Ian said:


> That's has always been my plans


Mine too. Somehow never happens when things get busy.


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## Ian

In the back of my mind as I move out the hives I feel as if the old bees are delicate as glass. I don't like to disturb the hives much at all as they scramble to resume brood rearing on the first sight of light. 
But as usual I fuss way too much. The bees have gotten to this point after winter and they are hardy to endure more, even a shot of OA. They handle the strips I put in around that time. A lot of this business is timing and working the bees from gained experience. The only problem is most experience is gained from problems, which reinforces the term "travelled the long road of hard knocks"


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## Adrian Quiney WI

I just got through reading "The Hive and the Honey Bee" section on indoor and outdoor wintering. It made me wonder if those wintering bees indoors, particularly you Ian, have a back up generator as ventilation is so important?


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## Ian

Adrian, I dont have a generator hitched up to my ventilation system, but the farm does have a commercial generator which could be hitched up within about half an hour if needed.


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## sharpdog

We are in the middle of a major chinook and wind storm. It's +8C outside, and the 110km/hr wind gusts are removing my shingles and just knocked out power. I have a back-up generator, but it will need to be hooked up, I think that I will do that if power isn't on in a few hours. I sure hope it cools off soon. I was able to get one small exhaust fan running off the inverter in my truck. Not going to get much sleep tonight.
Luke


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## Ian

That's not good, what's the shed temp?


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## sharpdog

Yeah, quite the wind storm. I got the generator rigged in this morning, shed temp stayed below 10C. Down to 7.5C now. Looks like its alright.
Luke


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## grozzie2

sharpdog said:


> It's +8C outside, and the 110km/hr wind gusts are removing my shingles and just knocked out power.


Wow, 110km is a good breeze. Eldest daughter and new son-in-law moved up to DC last spring for a new job (freshly graduated nurse). They have been learning about 'real winter' for a few months now. I think they may be having another 'learning experience' about now.


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## Rader Sidetrack

I am guessing the the "DC" referred to above is Dawson Creek BC, not the one just north of Virginia USA.


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## Vance G

Wind blew apart a farmstead about 25 miles from one of my wintering yards. Took down a big newer machine shop and part of the roof off the home. The recorded wind velocity was 117 mph in Choteau Mt the nearby town. Wind was gusting to 60 mph all night long here. The wind had been blowing hard most days for weeks. It gets crazy making.


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## grozzie2

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I am guessing the the "DC" referred to above is Dawson Creek BC, not the one just north of Virginia USA.


Um, ya, the place in the location field of the one I quoted, DC = Dawson Creek.


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## Nick Noyes

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> It made me wonder if those wintering bees indoors, particularly you Ian, have a back up generator as ventilation is so important?


We put an on demand propane generator in. It automatically turns on 5 minutes after it sense's no power. These are similar to what a hospital would have. Cheap insurance.


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## McBee7

Just read through this thread and saw some discussion on the accuracy of the RH meters that
were available...I used to be a heat-cooling tech in a factory situation, and had to monitor the
RH often and I used a "sling psychrometer" which is simply 2 thermometers that you swing ar-
round your head--one has a wick on the buld with either water or alcahol on the wick--
This gives you tthe dry bulb temp (air temp) and also the wet bulb temp (dew point) the 
temperature that water condenses at....There is a chart that will give you the RH depending
on the dry buld vs wet bulb temp....
--It simply is what it is---there is no error....less than $100 on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-taylor-sl...026?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23344403da

==McBee7==


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## McBee7

I also saw that there was mention of condensation on a plug in the top of the hive(??)
I'm not sure of what the plug does but if it is wet from condensation that isn't a good thing..
To me it is saying the RH inside the hive is extremely high...High enough to condense on the
top, like your mirrior does in the bathroom when you take a shower...for sure the surface that
had the condensation on it was below the dew point, or put another way , it had 100% 
humidity,,,if the surface would have been below freezing it would have frosted or iced..
which took out 3 of my hives this year.....you need ventalation through the hives...i would
take the plug out.....

early in this discussion there is a link to this pdf which address's lots of the issues mentioned
here---Post #6 by Forest bee--

http://www.backyardbees.ca/files/winteringbeaverlodge.pdf

most of these issues are addressed in the first page....

This is just my take on a situation I hope to be involved in this year but on a smaller scale..


==McBee7==


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## camero7

Curious, I'm planning on setting up indoor wintering this year. What % of winter losses are you that winter indoors experiencing? Please PM me if you don't want to post this on the forum. Thanks


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## Ian

There are many factors involved with wintering losses. You have to assess your losses and determine if weather was part of the problem. 
If you put weak hives into winter, the chance of losses is greater. In my area the weather is extreme cold and wind, those weak die outside where as they may survive indoors.  That is until you put them back out into the variability of spring weather. Some years the spring evens out the difference between indoor and outdoor. 
More and more it seems as our bees are entering winter under more stress than before, and it seems we are having trouble relieving that problem. Why? Pesticide exposure, v mites, virus , nosema, queen vigour, beekeeper overworked....

The question is, why winter indoors? 

For me it's because;
#1, I hate wrapping. Mostly because of the mice. 
#2, moving hives indoors is quick and easy with my set up
#3, I feel I'm able to shelter my hives from the extreme weather we get here in manitoba 
#4, it allows me to winter in singles which increases my honey production and allows me to target pests more efficiently 
# 5, sheltered yards are becoming harder to find. Cold and wind combined kills hives. We had three weeks of -30 degree weather with wind... If those hives are not in shelter, that cold wind will kill hives
#6, this consistent cold Manitoba weather gives us an advantage in being able to manage the shed at a consistent regulated temp. Over heating of the shed an issue only on occasion.

If you notice, 4 out if the 6 reasons I listed for my reasons to winter indoors is directly related to cold.


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## JoshW

I am Looking forward to next years indoor wintering already. How often will I need to exchange the air with 50 single in 640 cubic feet of air space? Looking into what kind of ventilation system I will need to install. At this amount of bees I could probably set an exhaust fan on a thermostat instead of a timer?


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## Ian

Hi Josh
When I first started playing around with indoor wintering I wintered 30 hives in my 15 by 10 hot room. I had a ceiling fan set up and installed a bathroom fan to exhaust through out the day set on a car timer. 
If your looking for a higher volume air exchange consider a forced air furnace fan. They are cheap and available 

Arnt you glad you have your hives tucked away in your shed this winter? It's been so cold and windy I can't see outdoor hives fairing very well. Rheal was saying that package orders are up already with outdoor guys expecting the worst already....


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## JoshW

Ian, I am very happy that my hives are inside! I did leave one hive outside, It did not make it through that first cold snap, the polar vortex as they call it, I call it regular winter weather. 

My hydro Bill is taking a bit of a punch in the gut the past 2 months, because my hives are not throwing off enough heat in this frigid weather. More hives next winter should help with that problem. Winter shed was steady at 0 C last night with the space heater running full blast.


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## Ian

>>hydro Bill is taking a bit of a punch in the gut the past 2 months, because my hives are not throwing off enough heat in this frigid weather.<<

My wintering room is 45 by 50 by 12' (27000 cubic feet) with nearly 900 hives in it right now with a continuos idle air exchange ( about what a table fan set on low to medium ) and without any supplement heat the hives are maintaining 5 degrees.


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## jmgi

Ian, was curious when your bees start rearing brood in the winter when they are in the shed? Supposedly its the increased day length that stimulates them to start brood rearing, but if they are in a dark shed all winter, do they start later than hives wintered outdoors?


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## Ian

That's debatable but I have never seen brooding hives leaving the shed. Perhaps very small patches at times. It makes me wonder how a cluster from Sept Oct makes it till April.


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## sharpdog

I just checked the weight of the 4 hives I have on the scale. Starting weight Nov 1st was 286lbs, today's weight 242lbs. Average 11lbs loss per hive. I don't know if its good or bad. I lifted 2 of the lids on the scale, one was a large cluster wall to wall, the other was just smaller than a basketball.

Luke


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## Ian

Cool, keep us posted


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## sharpdog

sharpdog said:


> I just checked the weight of the 4 hives I have on the scale. Starting weight Nov 1st was 286lbs, today's weight 242lbs. Average 11lbs loss per hive. I don't know if its good or bad. I lifted 2 of the lids on the scale, one was a large cluster wall to wall, the other was just smaller than a basketball.
> 
> Luke


Looks like weight loss is accelerating. Weighed them again today, and the are down to 232lbs total. That's 13.5lbs per hive of loss so far. Assuming 180 days of indoor winter, now prorating for 24lb/hive loss for the winter.

Luke


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## JodieToadie

I took the kids out to the bee shed and gave the bees a little sip of water. I just couldn't resist to open one up and have a look. It appears to be similar to last year. I had capped brood in the only hive I looked in. About the size of a baseball, both sides of the frame. (See pictures) You can kind of make out the queen in the image. I can only assume that the others are similar. Although it would be just my luck that I picked the 1 out of 98 that had brood. My biggest concern now is that it appeared that they had eaten through about 20lbs of their stores. This hive went in at 73.9lbs. I will weigh it the next time I go in for a look. It's important to note that this hive was not particularly strong, it had about 5 frames of bees. They have been indoors since the first week of November. I am hoping to hold them in till mid to late April. So I still have 1.5-2 months to go. 

6-7 degrees C and no idea on RH.


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## JodieToadie

Forgot to say it is either a Kona or Arataki Carniolon Queen.


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## Ian

Im hoping to find weather at the end of March to set my hives out into. Just over a month before we start beekeeping again!

Cool seeing inside an indoor wintered hive. I have never broken into a hive after its been confined. They sure get runny. 
And I will take note on the patch of brood


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## Allen Martens

Ian you are very optimistic given the temperature trends this winter. Hope you are right.

JT that small patch of brood is a good reason to keep the temperature at 6-7 C. Smallish hives can starve on the brood if temperatures are lower, even if feed is only a couple of frames away.


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## Ian

I see it this way Allen, weather runs in cycles. Warm follows cold, right 
Lets just hope March comes in like a Lion...


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## JodieToadie

Well I just had my first deadout for the year. You might say death by pollen. I had ~15lbs of pollen under cappings so I assumed there was more honey. It went in a 63lbs (I think it was the lightest.) It weighed 41.4lbs at mortality. (lots of weight in pollen) I weighed a few others and it looks like I might have to feed in the shed. We still have 45 days minimum before they are outside. 22lbs over 4 months is 5.5lbs a month. So I need another 11lbs to make it through just till I can feed outside. Is this similar to what anyone else is seeing?


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## Ian

better get that pollen filled box outside to freeze out or in a dry place so that you dont loose it all to mold.


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## dgl1948

Ian said:


> I see it this way Allen, weather runs in cycles. Warm follows cold, right
> Lets just hope March comes in like a Lion...


You got your wish!


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## Ian

long range looks like our weather will return back to normals, 
that is if anyone puts any weight on long range, but the trend is encouraging


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## Chip Euliss

Same forecast here Ian--I'm hopeful but my glass is always half full. Just remember, weather forecasts are always 100% guaranteed. If you're not satisfied, just bring it back and the weatherman will give you a new one!


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## JoshW

I recently poked holes in the bottom of water bottles to water the bees. Humidity was at 15% in the shed and I was concerned. They have taken down about 250 ml each in 2 days, and now the shed is at 62%. I dont have an exhaust fan just vents and a floor fan to circulate. Temp is at 5 degrees. 

I cranked up the floor fan. Should I put in the de humidifier set to 40% or do the bees want it at 60 if that is where they have it?


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## JoshW

I put in the dehumidifier I am going to keep it under 40%. If the bees want the inside of the hive higher they can drink up. Bottled water is cheap


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## Allen Martens

I've never paid too much attention to the low RH - probably should. High RH I know is really bad. 40% is a good target IMO.


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## JoshW

I guess I just thought if the humidity was low they would bring it up to the level they preferred. Over 60 seems a little to high to me. Mind you I didn't think the small amount of water they took in would make such a drastic change.


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## Ian

15% RH inside a non ventilated shed with bees stacked in it does not make sense to me. The main reason I was having trouble with low RH was because of the dry cold air exchange. My shed got down to 25% RH at times but with the humidifier running through these cold cold weeks I was able to get the shed to a constant 45%. 

you will know if your humidity is too high if you start seeing water dripping out of the frounts of the hives. Condensation will form on the roof and run down the sides and out the frount.


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## Allen Martens

Ian said:


> you will know if your humidity is too high if you start seeing water dripping out of the frounts of the hives. Condensation will form on the roof and run down the sides and out the frount.


That is what I have always used for for too much RH in the hive. Pop some lids and see if there is condensation. If you don't see any, you are fine. If it is running down the sides and front you are in big trouble.

I seem to have very little bee drop this year. I scraped the floor for bees yesterday for the first time in a month and ended up with four 5 US gallon pail fulls. Its been that way all winter. From looking in the front and popping lids, bees look strong. What I would have considered a big hive last year is a small hive this year. I'm needing an incredible amount of exhausting to keep the temperature down. Going to have to work hard this year to keep them out of the trees it looks like.


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## Ian

its amazing how much heat kicks off a bee hive. I run my main ventilation fan down to a low idle speed ( about what a table fan would blow on medium) and I have not had to restrict the ventilation ducts. One of the reason why I have had low RH in my shed as it has been consistently cold this winter, 
my bee drop has not been as high as other years also. So far to date I have swept 5 wheel barrels full. Im starting to find dead hives as I walk the isles but I need to search for them. 

Allen you missed a good convention!


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## JoshW

There is a lot of open air space and I have to do supplemental heating as the hives do not throw off enough heat to keep the temps steady. I think that contributed to the original low RH.


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## Ian

you must be having more air exchange than you realize. Because without air exchange and with the hives kicking off moisture, your shed should of been maintaining a higher RH. The consumption of the water would of kicked off a higher humidity which you immediately seen in your sheds RH. Im thinking providing them with water was a good thing to do. 
I was toying with the idea , fed about a dozen of my hives just to see how they would react. But I decided not to feed water because of all the work involved and I have been experimenting with trying to find the optimum RH level in the shed which would provide enough condensation within the nest to satisfy their needs.


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## JoshW

If the humidity was at the optimum level within the shed would the hives not leave the water alone? I know there are many factors within the hive that require more or less moisture with them. But on average, if one were to give water and very few hives were to take it, would the optimum humidity level not have been reached at that point?


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## Allen Martens

If the bees are wintering on syrup, low humidity levels don't seem to be a problem. If bees are wintering on crystallized honey, higher humidity is needed to utilize the honey. That's why I mostly ignore the honey present in the hives when I feed in fall and feed as though no honey is present. Alfalfa honey is a different story.

Ian, the convention doesn't work well for me. In my other life I teach mornings. Sounds like a lot of interesting topics. The Lyme's one would have been a good one to attend. Deer ticks are becoming much more common in the southeast and I will need to watch for them much more closely.


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## Ian

JoshW said:


> If the humidity was at the optimum level within the shed would the hives not leave the water alone?


I would think so. If they are thirsty, they will drink it down.


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## Ian

Allen Martens said:


> The Lyme's one would have been a good one to attend. Deer ticks are becoming much more common in the southeast and I will need to watch for them much more closely.


It was one of the topics I did not really go for, but in actual fact it was the topic that I found the most useful. Excellent job by the presenters and guest pannel speakers. I am going to be implementing more attention towards decreasing our exposure to this disease, not just for me but for my guys


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## JodieToadie

Updated data points for weight loss indoor wintering: (Sorry the format sucks) 

98 hives (1 dead)

Average weight going in: 74.95lbs
Average weight now: 57.1lbs
Average weight loss: 17.84lbs
Average percent loss: 23.79% 
Time in barn: 4 months so far


Hive #	Weight Nov 1	Weight May 5	Weight Loss	Percent Loss
1	72.1	53.6	18.5	25.65880721
2	70	47.7	22.3	31.85714286
3	71	56	15	21.12676056
4	66.4	47	19.4	29.21686747
5	70.9	46.4	24.5	34.55571227
6	74.1	57.2	16.9	22.80701754
7	74.8	59.5	15.3	20.45454545
8	78.2	53	25.2	32.22506394
9	71.5	59.7	11.8	16.5034965
10	73.2	58.7	14.5	19.80874317
11	79.2	65.1	14.1	17.8030303
12	75	54.9	20.1	26.8
13	77.9	56.7	21.2	27.21437741
14	63.3	41.4	21.9	34.5971564
15	79.2	49.4	29.8	37.62626263
16	78.7	52.7	26	33.03684879
17	71.8	61.3	10.5	14.62395543
18	79.4	67.7	11.7	14.73551637
19	67.8	53.2	14.6	21.5339233
20	77.2	62	15.2	19.68911917
21	68.1	49.4	18.7	27.45961821
22	81.6	52.7	28.9	35.41666667
23	79.2	57.2	22	27.77777778
24	73.2	56.5	16.7	22.81420765
25	66.7	50.9	15.8	23.68815592
26	83.7	64.5	19.2	22.9390681
27	73.4	53.2	20.2	27.52043597
28	67.1	50.1	17	25.33532042
29	73.1	63.4	9.7	13.26949384
30	74	65	9	12.16216216
31	88.8	67.3	21.5	24.21171171
32	77.7	61.7	16	20.59202059
33	80.1	63.1	17	21.22347066
34	80.1	54.5	25.6	31.96004994
35	74.5	65.1	9.4	12.61744966
36	84.6	63.9	20.7	24.46808511
37	82.6	62.5	20.1	24.33414044
38	67.9	50.8	17.1	25.18409426
39	77.9	61.2	16.7	21.43774069
40	72.9	54.1	18.8	25.78875171
41	73	56.1	16.9	23.15068493
42	71.1	54.2	16.9	23.76933896
43	78.2	58	20.2	25.83120205
44	76.2	54.8	21.4	28.0839895
45	70.2	57.5	12.7	18.09116809
46	70.2	57.5	12.7	18.09116809
47	72.3	57	15.3	21.16182573
48	82	56.2	25.8	31.46341463
49	78.1	55.6	22.5	28.80921895
50	69.3	53.7	15.6	22.51082251
51	79.6	63.2	16.4	20.60301508
52	69.9	52.5	17.4	24.89270386
53	79.2	61.4	17.8	22.47474747
54	71.8	54	17.8	24.79108635
55	79.6	67.9	11.7	14.69849246
56	72	60.6	11.4	15.83333333
57	75.4	60.4	15	19.8938992
58	71.2	53.7	17.5	24.57865169
59	71.4	55.4	16	22.40896359
60	81	62.1	18.9	23.33333333
61	69.3	56.1	13.2	19.04761905
62	73.8	58.7	15.1	20.46070461
63	72	52.6	19.4	26.94444444
64	69.2	49.1	20.1	29.04624277
65	77.9	56.1	21.8	27.98459564
66	77.2	63.3	13.9	18.00518135
67	75.3	54.7	20.6	27.35723772
68	66.6	54.9	11.7	17.56756757
69	68	51.5	16.5	24.26470588
70	76.9	62.8	14.1	18.33550065
71	74.6	59.3	15.3	20.50938338
72	66	45.7	20.3	30.75757576
73	71.3	53.8	17.5	24.54417952
74	74.3	64.1	10.2	13.72812921
75	63.2	50.4	12.8	20.25316456
76	80.1	61.1	19	23.72034956
77	71.3	51.4	19.9	27.91023843
78	83.4	60.7	22.7	27.21822542
79	77.9	52.8	25.1	32.22079589
80	75.3	56.4	18.9	25.09960159
81	81.7	55.4	26.3	32.19094247
82	81.6	69.9	11.7	14.33823529
83	74.8	55.8	19	25.40106952
84	73.8	53.3	20.5	27.77777778
85	73.3	59.3	14	19.09959072
86	81.4	63.8	17.6	21.62162162
87	71.9	56.4	15.5	21.55771905
88	76.2	60.3	15.9	20.86614173
89	77.5	54.3	23.2	29.93548387
90	78.2	63.1	15.1	19.30946292
91	85.3	68.1	17.2	20.16412661
92	71.6	50.5	21.1	29.46927374
93	74.4	58.3	16.1	21.63978495
94	87	64.3	22.7	26.09195402
95	79.2	61.4	17.8	22.47474747
96	72	52.6	19.4	26.94444444
97	78.2	58	20.2	25.83120205
98	72.9	54.3	18.6	25.51440329
Totals	74.95102041	57.10918367	17.84183673	23.79335972


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## Ian

Excellent work Jodie!

Would you mind me posting your final results in my blog? This is good stuff.
In the spring, could you do a colony size assessment for each hive? It would be interesting to see the initial weights, consumption and final weights in relation to colony strength. 
I rate my hives in the spring by counting the frames underneath, 5 frames plus >> strong, 3-5 frames >> medium, 3 frames and less >> small


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## grozzie2

JodieToadie said:


> Updated data points for weight loss indoor wintering: (Sorry the format sucks)


I stuck your data into code tags, it helps keep the columns formatted neatly, after rounding a couple numbers down to just 2 decimals in the totals. Original said May 5, I think it meant Mar 5, which I changed.

Fascinating numbers btw, I'm also interested in where it ends up when it's time to come out, if you have the time / inclination to weigh them again then.



98 hives (1 dead)



Code:


Average weight going in: 74.95lbs
Average weight now: 57.1lbs
Average weight loss:  17.84lbs
Average percent loss:  23.79% 
Time in barn: 4 months so far

				
Hive # Nov 1    Mar 5	Loss	Percent Loss
1      72.1	53.6	18.5	25.65880721
2	70	47.7	22.3	31.85714286
3	71	56	15	21.12676056
4	66.4	47	19.4	29.21686747
5	70.9	46.4	24.5	34.55571227
6	74.1	57.2	16.9	22.80701754
7	74.8	59.5	15.3	20.45454545
8	78.2	53	25.2	32.22506394
9	71.5	59.7	11.8	16.5034965
10	73.2	58.7	14.5	19.80874317
11	79.2	65.1	14.1	17.8030303
12	75	54.9	20.1	26.8
13	77.9	56.7	21.2	27.21437741
14	63.3	41.4	21.9	34.5971564
15	79.2	49.4	29.8	37.62626263
16	78.7	52.7	26	33.03684879
17	71.8	61.3	10.5	14.62395543
18	79.4	67.7	11.7	14.73551637
19	67.8	53.2	14.6	21.5339233
20	77.2	62	15.2	19.68911917
21	68.1	49.4	18.7	27.45961821
22	81.6	52.7	28.9	35.41666667
23	79.2	57.2	22	27.77777778
24	73.2	56.5	16.7	22.81420765
25	66.7	50.9	15.8	23.68815592
26	83.7	64.5	19.2	22.9390681
27	73.4	53.2	20.2	27.52043597
28	67.1	50.1	17	25.33532042
29	73.1	63.4	9.7	13.26949384
30	74	65	9	12.16216216
31	88.8	67.3	21.5	24.21171171
32	77.7	61.7	16	20.59202059
33	80.1	63.1	17	21.22347066
34	80.1	54.5	25.6	31.96004994
35	74.5	65.1	9.4	12.61744966
36	84.6	63.9	20.7	24.46808511
37	82.6	62.5	20.1	24.33414044
38	67.9	50.8	17.1	25.18409426
39	77.9	61.2	16.7	21.43774069
40	72.9	54.1	18.8	25.78875171
41	73	56.1	16.9	23.15068493
42	71.1	54.2	16.9	23.76933896
43	78.2	58	20.2	25.83120205
44	76.2	54.8	21.4	28.0839895
45	70.2	57.5	12.7	18.09116809
46	70.2	57.5	12.7	18.09116809
47	72.3	57	15.3	21.16182573
48	82	56.2	25.8	31.46341463
49	78.1	55.6	22.5	28.80921895
50	69.3	53.7	15.6	22.51082251
51	79.6	63.2	16.4	20.60301508
52	69.9	52.5	17.4	24.89270386
53	79.2	61.4	17.8	22.47474747
54	71.8	54	17.8	24.79108635
55	79.6	67.9	11.7	14.69849246
56	72	60.6	11.4	15.83333333
57	75.4	60.4	15	19.8938992
58	71.2	53.7	17.5	24.57865169
59	71.4	55.4	16	22.40896359
60	81	62.1	18.9	23.33333333
61	69.3	56.1	13.2	19.04761905
62	73.8	58.7	15.1	20.46070461
63	72	52.6	19.4	26.94444444
64	69.2	49.1	20.1	29.04624277
65	77.9	56.1	21.8	27.98459564
66	77.2	63.3	13.9	18.00518135
67	75.3	54.7	20.6	27.35723772
68	66.6	54.9	11.7	17.56756757
69	68	51.5	16.5	24.26470588
70	76.9	62.8	14.1	18.33550065
71	74.6	59.3	15.3	20.50938338
72	66	45.7	20.3	30.75757576
73	71.3	53.8	17.5	24.54417952
74	74.3	64.1	10.2	13.72812921
75	63.2	50.4	12.8	20.25316456
76	80.1	61.1	19	23.72034956
77	71.3	51.4	19.9	27.91023843
78	83.4	60.7	22.7	27.21822542
79	77.9	52.8	25.1	32.22079589
80	75.3	56.4	18.9	25.09960159
81	81.7	55.4	26.3	32.19094247
82	81.6	69.9	11.7	14.33823529
83	74.8	55.8	19	25.40106952
84	73.8	53.3	20.5	27.77777778
85	73.3	59.3	14	19.09959072
86	81.4	63.8	17.6	21.62162162
87	71.9	56.4	15.5	21.55771905
88	76.2	60.3	15.9	20.86614173
89	77.5	54.3	23.2	29.93548387
90	78.2	63.1	15.1	19.30946292
91	85.3	68.1	17.2	20.16412661
92	71.6	50.5	21.1	29.46927374
93	74.4	58.3	16.1	21.63978495
94	87	64.3	22.7	26.09195402
95	79.2	61.4	17.8	22.47474747
96	72	52.6	19.4	26.94444444
97	78.2	58	20.2	25.83120205
98	72.9	54.3	18.6	25.51440329
Totals	74.95	57.11	17.84	23.79


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## Fusion_power

This would be an outstanding opportunity to do some selection work. Pick the 30 colonies with the lowest weight loss over winter. Then pick the 10 best colonies from those 30. Breed from the 10 and see how repeatable the results are next year.

I would expect rapid gains to be made in developing a bee that overwinters with minimal stores use and still has a decent cluster for spring buildup.


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## JodieToadie

Well I will try to keep everyone updated. You are more than welcome to use the data Ian. I use yours more than you know. 
Nice job Grozzie, thank you. I was too cheap to buy MS Excel for my laptop, so I did it on skydrive and cut and pasted it back to notepad.


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## Allen Martens

Wow Jodie, I am impressed that you weighed each hive midwinter. Not sure you checked and recorded colony size in fall or now, but is the consumption correlated to colony size or frugality? 

I'm even more impressed with your 99% survival rate so far. Wow.


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## Ian

I think a colony size assessment in the spring would be sufficient for determining colony size, and actually probably more accurate than counting frames in the fall


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## JodieToadie

I am a bit of a 'communist' beekeeper. I try very hard in spring and fall to level out resources. Our nights get very cold this far north. So I take from the strong and give to the weak, or conversely I will combine two weak to make a strong. (More so the latter) I would have assessed most hives as 8 frames minimum going into the barn. I will also follow a similar pattern in spring. I can't quite follow the same schedule as Ian as I don't think my nights are quite as warm. I think in general I would be 2 weeks behind. 

In my estimation I believe the consumption could be somewhat attributed to colony frugality. It could also quite possibly be attributed to continual brood rearing in the faster consuming hives. 

(Rightly or wrongly, on my last assessment of my hives i found ~6 that had stopped laying altogether in late fall. They also appeared weaker (subjectively) than the hives that were still laying. So those hives had queens pinched and comdined with weaker hives.)

I have found on my only full hive assessment in the shed (February) that it still had a softball sized brood pattern. I would really be interested in someone else doing a brood hunt in a randomly selected hive from their wintering shed to see if they had brood as well. (I cannot imagine that out of 98 hives I selected the only one that had brood.)
I would wonder if they really naturally shutdown brood rearing, or if it is due to a lack of pollen. Perhaps this is just due to my juvenile understanding of the bees. Mine have seen no light for 4 months. So it can't be light that triggers brood rearing in my estimation. I did also have some really warm days in the shed in January due to the weather outside. (Perhaps this triggered a brood cycle?) 
Anyone who has the time and ambition to add to this would be appreciated.


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## Ian

JodieToadie said:


> I would really be interested in someone else doing a brood hunt in a randomly selected hive from their wintering shed to see if they had brood as well.


I have often thought about it but I don't have enough curiosity to dig into an indoor wintered colony, 
I have heard mention from Rob Currie a number of years ago speaking on their indoor wintering formic trials, where as they opened a few hives during confinement to observe what was happening and better understand their studdy. I remember him claiming to find some brood, not much and not in all the hives they opened, from what I remember. I do know that when I put the bees out, a few days after letting them fly and while I generally work the hives adding honey frames or readjusting the cluster, I rarely find anything worth noting.


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## JodieToadie

Well today the bees have spoken. Yesterday they were whispering. (It was 12C in the shed.) I opened the doors last night and got it down to 1 degree. I went and checked them at 5pm tonight and uh oh. Its 26C in the shed and they are everywhere. As soon as it gets dark I will kick the doors open. Once they cluster up i'll move them out. So the 1st of November to the 4 of April this year. Hopefully the temperature overshoot doesn't hurt them too much. Quite a dramatic jump in a single day! The ambient wasn't much different.


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## Ian

Yikes, 26degreesC! Ouch I freak at 10-15 degreesC, sometimes found on occasional mid winter mild spells...

Hope they fount their way back to the hives!

My shed has been holding at 6 degreesC, with both fan blaring. It has been an easy spring to keep the shed temps down...

Im moving my hives out starting tomorrow. The year starts again!


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## Ian

Some follow up comments to the questions I have asked earlier this winter about RH in my wintering shed.

I had experienced some very dry conditions in my shed during the beginning of this years cold winter, as low as 25%RH. This concerned me so I started adding water to the air with a high performing humidifier and kept the RH in the shed at 45%RH. I added water to the air right up until the end of February when we started getting milder weather.

My hives are in good shape over all. Like many years I have hives sitting on hard honey, which they are struggling to access. Now that they are out, the honey is being diluted. I believe increasing the RH in the shed would of helped these hives indoors accessing condensation in the hive because they were able to consume this honey. I did have a problem with some of my hives sitting beside my inlet vent. Because of a flaw in my air mixing design a row of hives were kept colder in the shed as they encountered cool air flow and experienced increased condensation with my higher humidity. It did hurt them somewhat. Im going to change my air inlet to help mix the air better. 

Lesson learned;
increase air distribution
maintaining a consistent RH of 45% proved beneficial


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## Allen Martens

JodieToadie said:


> I have found on my only full hive assessment in the shed (February) that it still had a softball sized brood pattern.
> Anyone who has the time and ambition to add to this would be appreciated.


Well JT didn't feel like messing with the bees during winter either. Finally moved my bees out last Thursday and Friday nights and looked at them today. Some of them had no capped brood and some had at most a softball size patch of capped brood. Things are changing quickly now.


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## JodieToadie

Allen Martens said:


> Well JT didn't feel like messing with the bees during winter either. Finally moved my bees out last Thursday and Friday nights and looked at them today. Some of them had no capped brood and some had at most a softball size patch of capped brood. Things are changing quickly now.


Thanks a lot Allen. I always second guess my own hives and really appreciate that you saw some similar results. I hope they start pounding out the brood for you. What is the typical timing for willow pollen and dandelions there?


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## Allen Martens

Springs are so varied. Willow and poplar pollen usually the last 2 weeks in April. Dandelions for most of May. This year willow will be later but to early to tell for dandelion. Couple of warm weeks changes everything.


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