# Cell death in honeybee (Apis mellifera) larvae treated with oxalic or formic acid



## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Here is an interesting article for users of oxalic acid. I would really like to read the whole article. Does anybody have a subscription to this journal, if not that what about your local library or college? The subscription is over $500 per year.
http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2004/05/M4027/M4027.html 

[This message has been edited by magnet-man (edited November 19, 2004).]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Another reason why, if you're going to use them, it's probably best to wait until there's no brood in the hive before treating with these.


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2004)

Inter-library loan is your weapon of 
choice here, and the reference librarian
can likely get it for you within the week
from your local University.

They just make photocopies and mail them,
and you often don't even have to pay the
postage. 

I'm requesting a copy, for sure.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2004)

Hi Guys,

I don't know anything about the in-situ testing kits or procedures. But a simple test using a digital camera might work. A queen could be restricted to a comb as if preparing a breeder frame for grafting. After 24 hours remove the queen. Four days later, photograph the comb. then take daily photos until the brood is sealed. Simply and fast. 

Any takers on the summer end of the world?

I have only visually observed brood for any damage from oxalic. I looked for a loss of very young brood, sporadic laying, shot brood pattern and reduced brood pattern. I didn't detect any of these with oxalic.

But I have seen a reduced brood pattern and about 10% queen loss with liquid formic(30ml of 60% on absorbant material beneath the hive cover). I looked at formic about 10 years ago.

For those of us out in the boonies, would you post a synopsis of the material.

Thanks
Dennis
Living in a state with just one University. It's a miracle I can even read or write :> )


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## jdb5949 (Oct 13, 2004)

Dennis,
I can't help with the latest research, but http://www.edpsciences.org offers free online access to apidologie just 18 months after publication.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Apidologie 35 (2004) 453-460 
DOI: 10.1051/apido:2004037

Cell death in honeybee (Apis mellifera) larvae treated with oxalic or formic acid 
Ales Gregorca, Azra Pogacnika and Ivor D. Bowenb 

a Veterinary Faculty of the University of Ljubljana, Gerbiceva 60, 1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia 
b Cardiff School of Biosciences, Preclinical Building, Cardiff University, PO Box 911, Cardiff, CF10 3US, UK

(Received 3 June; revised 28 November 2003; accepted 16 December 2003)

Abstract - The effects of oxalic (OA) and formic acids (FA) on honeybee larvae in colonies were assessed and evaluated. Cell death was detected by the TUNEL technique for DNA labelling. In 3- and 5-day-old larvae exposed to OA, cell death was found in 25% of midgut epithelial cells 5 h after the treatment, using an "In situ cell death detection kit, AP" (Roche). The level of cell death increased to 70% by the 21st hour and the morphology of the epithelium remained unchanged. Fifty hours after the application, cell death was established in 18% of the epithelial cells of the 3-day-old larvae and had increased to 82% in the 5-day-old larvae. A "DeadEnd" apoptosis detection kit (Promega) showed sporadic cell death mainly in the larval fat body 5 h after treatment. Twenty-one hours after the OA application cell death was found in 4% of the larval midgut epithelial cells. Evaporated formic acid induced extensive apoptotic cell death in the peripheral, cuticular and subcuticular tissues that preceded the cell death of the entire larval body. 


Key words: Apis mellifera / cell death / oxalic acid / formic acid / immunochemical method


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

The first question in my mind is what method of application did they use in applying the OA?


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

The abstract raises a lot of questions. That is why I would love to see a copy of the actual article.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Hi guys

I've been in the beeyard all morning. I have 50 dead bees on the landing boards of 2 of my langs. they are dragging them out. They did the same thing right after I treated with the crack pipe. Which I know I used it too hot. But many of these are not fully developed, some are crawling around with deformed wings (just little stubs for wings). I had put a piece of plywood under the SBB. pulled them off and it was covered with mites. So I am thinking that I have a mite problem. But could it be damage from the OxAcid?

The lang I requeened and my TBH's don't have this problem. 

Should I hit them again with the crack pipe? Or just see what happens? These are (were?)strong hives.

david


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

From my experience, if there is no open brood, one treatment will probably do the trick. But two will get the last of them.


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## newbee 101 (May 26, 2004)

The deformed wings are from the mites.

------------------
"To bee or not to bee, that is the question"


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Did anyone manage to get a copy of the article?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I would no sooner dose my bees with wood bleach than I would my kids. Duh


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

AND YOU FOG BEES WITH THIS PRODUCT ALSO ????
AND ARE SURPRISED IT MIGHT BE KILLING THEM ??? DUH....

Precipitating agent in Rare-earth mineral processing; 
Bleaching agent in the textile activities, wood pulp bleaching; 
Rust remover for Metal treatment; 
Used in commercial rust removers to remove rust stains from tubs and sinks. 
Grinding agent, such as marble polishing 
Waste water tratment, removing calcium in water. 
Use in cleaning and sterilizing homebrewing equipment. 
Useful as a reducing agent for photography and ink removal 
Used as purifying agent in pharmaceutical industry 
Rrock collectors,clean mineral specimens 
Remove food and rust stains from kitchen countertops, plumbing fixtures and fabric


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

And you'd have your combs soaked in this rather than Apistan? Duh....


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Well,...ok, read this.
http://www.apis.admin.ch/en/krankheiten/docs/saeuren/os_anwendersicherheit_e.pdf 

[This message has been edited by BULLSEYE BILL (edited December 21, 2004).]


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>And you'd have your combs soaked in this rather than Apistan? Duh....
Nothing like a bit of histrionics to keep things entertaining is there?

A publication I have bookmarked Value-added products from beekeeping:
http://www.fao.org/docrep/w0076e/w0076e00.htm 

This will take you to the chapter The composition of honey:
http://www.fao.org/docrep/w0076e/w0076e04.htm#2.3 

Scroll down a bit until you come to Table 2.7 List of compounds found in honey.....

Along with the sugars, minerals, vitamins, enzymes, acids (including oxalic) are a number of esters, ketones and aldehydes, and alcohols. Some of these compounds arent necessarily found in all honeys. Eva Crane has a similar table in one of her books. She also writes that some of these arent always found in every sample of honey. She does say: Probably all honeys contain formaldehyde, propionaldehyde and acetone, and most also contain benzyl alcohol....

She also lists oxalic acid in her table along with formic, malic, tartaric, and several other acids. Neither the table listed in the URL or that of Cranes book lists fluvalinate as a constituent of honey.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

I think someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I just treated, with O/A, 18 hives finishing on Nov 11. I saw no unusual signs. The bees don't seem to know I'm doing it except for a little grumbling about having the entrance closed for 15 mins. I get much more reaction from FGMO. Duh, yes I'd rather have a natural acid in my hives than Apistan. That's why I use it. At this point I'm very interested in the cell damage report. I'd have to balance it against the visible damage the mites do to the whole bee/larvae/pupa. And I had half my 9 mo old queens dissapear last year. When I breed my own, they will be from hives that never had any (other) chemical in them. PS. This isn't new. Been in use in Russia and Europe for many years.

dickm


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## chemistbert (Mar 4, 2004)

odfrank,
Ever read the same sort of thing for water? Used in pesticides, explosives, waste treatment, oil refining, not to mention most EVERYTHING that we use today. And YOU DRINK THAT??????????????????????????????????? Out of context everything can be made to look very bad. Salt rusts steel and we use it everyday. Going to stop eating that? OK, Enough silliness from me.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Have any of you guys gotten a copy of that article yet mentioned back on November 19?

[This message has been edited by Dick Allen (edited December 21, 2004).]


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Odfrank I hope your not a vegetarian.


Here I give you an idea about OA concentration in some common and typical vegetables.

Amaranth 1.09 = grams OA per 100grams 
Rhubarb 0.70
Beans, Snap 0.36
Beet Leaves 0.61
Brussels Sprouts 0.36
Carrot 0.50
Chives 1.48
Lettuce 0.33
Parsley 1.70
Purslane 1.31
Spinach 0.97

The human body itself also synthesizes oxalic acid from Vitamin C


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

No need to make someone feel bad with the word duh or mock them. Ever look at the apaisan strip contents? FGMO? How about that plywood you use in construction? What chemicals are in that stuff? How about the rugs and roofing shingles? The construction materials, glue....the list goes on. This is a place to ask people for advice and learn. If you want to be negative then please back off.
Dan


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Parsley 1.70<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wonder of parsley would make a good smoker fuel?


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

we treated our 10 hives with OA and we just checked on them. One of the hive has lots of dead bees in the enterance and the cluster is very small. So i think it still hurts the bees but it does do somthing bad to the mites lol the SBB inserts were covered with mites. Nick


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Then again it's the time of year when bees do die off a lot especially if there were a lot of mites harming them going into fall. But perhaps the Oxalic plays into it too.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

true but this hive had lots more dead bees than any othere hive around that yard i think we vaporized in it too long. Nick


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

>>>>I wonder of parsley would make a good smoker fuel? <<<<

LOL You slay me!

dickm


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>>>>I wonder of parsley would make a good smoker fuel? <<<<
LOL You slay me!

I wonder what the oxalic level is in sumac? If it really works like they claim, there has to be an active ingredient, it may be oxalic.

I can't think of a better use for parsley than a smoker fuel.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2004)

Hi Guys,

I am proposing a simple test. Measure the viability of the eggs in the test hive. Pick a good brood frame with lots of brood of various ages. Exclude the queen from this frame. Photograph it with enough detail to see the brood. Treat the hive with oxalic. Return and photograph the frame each day with as little disruption as possible. Compare photos and calculate brood viability after treatment.

Anyone with bees still brooding and a digital camera want to do the test? I will work up the results. 

I just haven't seen any detrimental brood impacts. When I first treated, I compared brood from treated and non-treated hives and didn't see any difference in amount or age distribution. Treated hive populations didn't diminish when compared to untreated hives.

And I treated the hives while they were still flying and raising brood toward the end of summer.

I haven't experienced any dead bees from treating, but I haven't treated during the winter either. Less than a dozen bees were crisped when they zigged instead of zagged while using the entrance evaporator. But bending the tubing, so the flame was away from the bees flight path, cured that problem.

Regards
Dennis


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## Frohnho (Feb 17, 2002)

I spent a couple of hours trying to get it today.My guess is it is not avaible online yet. You can send a reprint request to thew author


Gregorc A
Univ Ljubljana, Fac Vet
Gerbiceva 60
Ljubljana 1000
Slovenia


or try his e-mail


[email protected]


He will send you a copy.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I hate to admit it, but I had a really hot hive (only 8 frames of bees in an eight frame box) and thought I'd see if an overdose of Oxalic would harm the bees or the queen. I figured I wouldn't miss them too much if it did. I gave about three times what I normally give for that size hive to them and all the bees fled the hive and many died. You can overdose on Oxalic acid.


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