# Hive suddenly very defensive



## sylvester (Sep 9, 2017)

I am a new beek. I currently have only one hive (second one on order). My hive is a feral colony I caught at the end of summer. They've wintered okay and they are starting the explosive growth I have been expecting. All seems good....

Until 4 days ago I was stupid. I've got a few frames of comb that I originally cut out of the swarm trap. This comb has no foundation and it's not exactly straight. It almost always gets bridged into the next frame between inspections and generally is a mess. Since things seem to be moving forward, I've been gradually moving it towards the outside with the intent of removing it. I pulled the first 'ugly frame' 4 days ago. Thinking I was smart... I took it about 120ft away from the hive and left it to be cleaned out. I picked it up after dark -- about halfway cleaned out and put it away. 

The next day (3 days ago) I started seeing very slight robbing attempts at my hive. I saw bees trying to find alternate ways into the hive and some amount of fighting. This is not the frenzied robbing I see on youtube videos... but robbing in my eyes nonetheless. I reduced the entrance and tossed a sheet over the hive. The next day I removed the sheet and I haven't seen fighting since.

However, we are now getting stings well away from the hive when we are clearly not threatening the hive. We've been stung several times and had quite a few bumps/attempts to sting that were 50-100 feet from the hive and around corners out of sight of the hive.

I know I started this... just not sure where to go from here. I keep hoping that it will settle down and go back to normal. Up until now they've been docile. I have been able to mow and weedeat in front of the hive (but smaller numbers back then). I have historically sat for long periods of time observing them from 5-10 feet away. We have historically walked right in front of the hive to go in the side door of my shop and never been bothered. Now we're getting stung/bumped well away from it.

I'm fine waiting it out (if I think it will die down). I'm fine requeening. I just am not sure what direction to take.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

did you verify that the colony was queenright when you went in 4 days ago? i rarely see robbing here but when i do it's most often after a colony has gone queenless.

some of my more defensive hives will act like you describe for a few days after an inspection, but only just a few of the bees, and only when in close proximity to the hive, say less than 30'.

i would be inclined to wait it out a few more days and if it continues take a careful look for the queen and new eggs with the proper use of a smoker. if queenright and still defensive i would likely pinch the queen before that colony gets to much stronger and has a chance to send out drones.


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## sylvester (Sep 9, 2017)

Yes, I was queenright. In fact, this was my very first time to spot her. (I've always found eggs/brood... but was sort of excited to actually find the queen once.)

If it comes time to pinch the queen, I will likely have to call around and find help finding her. And FWIW I did see a small patch of drone brood this last inspection, so they are coming.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Last spring I started getting stung when I was nowhere near the hive. Twice I got zapped when I was at least 50' away working my garden to get ready for spring. I asked and was told that they can get ornery as they are building up to swarm. I don't know where you are in the Texas season but it made sense here.

I did a split and they calmed right down and weren't a problem the rest of the year.


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## sylvester (Sep 9, 2017)

Steve in PA said:


> Last spring I started getting stung when I was nowhere near the hive. Twice I got zapped when I was at least 50' away working my garden to get ready for spring. I asked and was told that they can get ornery as they are building up to swarm. I don't know where you are in the Texas season but it made sense here.
> 
> I did a split and they calmed right down and weren't a problem the rest of the year.


Thanks. That's helpful. I'll give them a few days probation and then think about splitting.


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## bison (Apr 27, 2011)

I would requeen. You're likely in an area at risk for Africanized bees, and a feral swarm might have a higher likelihood of being so. No reason a normal hive should attack you that far from the hive.


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## sylvester (Sep 9, 2017)

Follow up:

Okay we are now 8 days past the flare up of my hive. I have not yet done another inspection.... I wanted to get some more input this weekend from folks at my beginner class this weekend before I made any moves.

I think I will probably requeen. I know my queen is probably on the aging side anyway and it couldn't hurt for both swarminess and defensiveness. I've talked to a local queen producer and he will have some in a few weeks. 

We are getting bumped and angrily buzzed at well over 100ft away from the hive now. A handful of stings -- nothing major -- but it is making life in the back yard less than pleasant. My wife is out gardening in a veil right now and she is no where even close to the hive.

My question here for the non-newbees: What is normal? I hear people talk of having hives right outside their back door and everyone just "gets along." And this is how this hive was from August 2017 until a little over a week ago. I am starting to re-think the placement of my hives. While I have only one hive now... I have a second on order and I have 4 swarm traps out (2 of which have scouts buzzing about). My hive is about 120 feet from my back porch, 30 feet from the garden, 50 feet from driveway where guests might arrive and right next to my work shop. 

I've got enough land I can push them back away from the house a bit, though it is mostly wooded, so they won't get near the sun they get up near the house. I also have some less-than-model-citizen neighbors. I worry a bit about pushing the bees back away from the house. I think the likelihood of them doing something stupid like using the hive boxes for target practice is in the "very likely" range. But if I am going to move them, I'd like to move them before there are multiple hives. (Yes, I am aware of the "2 feet or 2 miles" saying... and if they move, it's definitely going to violate that rule of thumb.)

What is a "sane distance" from the house/garden for a half dozen hives?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Bee that are in "swarm mode" -- building queen cells-- will suddenly get exceptionally defensive. The bees are agitated when preparing to swarm -- on high alert. The defensiveness often calms down quickly after the swarm exits with the old queen and 2/3'ds of the colony. Check for swarm cells, and if you can do an artificial swarm by dividing the colony and moving the old queen off.


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## bison (Apr 27, 2011)

sylvester said:


> My question here for the non-newbees: What is normal?
> What is a "sane distance" from the house/garden for a half dozen hives?


Well, getting nailed 100 feet away is not what I'd call normal. Heck, getting nailed 10 feet away isn't normal either! I believe you're in Africanized bee territory so there's a good chance that's what you have, not our nice gentle European honeybees. 

To me the only real limitation on how close you can put bees to your home is their normal flight path as you don't want that to cross areas that you want to be in. Some people get around this by turning them toward a fence or the like so that they have to fly straight up before heading out more diagonally into the sky. Other than that there's no reason that proximity to your home should cause nice calm bees to cause you any problems. The distances your hives are away isn't the problem, your bees are the problem.


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## sylvester (Sep 9, 2017)

bison said:


> Well, getting nailed 100 feet away is not what I'd call normal. Heck, getting nailed 10 feet away isn't normal either! I believe you're in Africanized bee territory so there's a good chance that's what you have, not our nice gentle European honeybees.
> 
> To me the only real limitation on how close you can put bees to your home is their normal flight path as you don't want that to cross areas that you want to be in. Some people get around this by turning them toward a fence or the like so that they have to fly straight up before heading out more diagonally into the sky. Other than that there's no reason that proximity to your home should cause nice calm bees to cause you any problems. The distances your hives are away isn't the problem, your bees are the problem.


Yeah, I've considered that. There is a local guy that breeds queens that I was going to try -- but they won't be available for about 3 weeks. 

Since most of the feedback I've gotten was either "AHB/re-queen" or "about to swarm/split them" ... I'm considering splitting them this week. My hopes were this would either calm them down or divide their numbers such that they are not quite as difficult to deal with. What I don't know is how badly the queenless side of the split will act while it attempts to re-queen itself.

Does this at least sound like a reasonable plan?


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## bison (Apr 27, 2011)

I really doubt it's an "about to swarm" issue given the distance they're going from the hive to attack, but that's easy enough to check as you'd be able to see queen cells now. If there are none, it's almost certainly bad genes. 

Splitting might help a bit as smaller hives are less aggressive than bigger ones, but if there's a genetic problem you're not fixing anything and may just end up with two hot hives instead of one. You could certainly do a split now - that might calm them down a bit - then re-queen both hives with queens with known good genetics in three weeks when they're available.


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## sylvester (Sep 9, 2017)

Thanks bison (and the rest). That is pretty much my plan.


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## sylvester (Sep 9, 2017)

Just a follow up. If there was any doubt about my hive having AHB heritage, I think it has evaporated, rained and evaporated again. I did an inspection today just to make absolutely sure (a) I was still queenright and (b) there were no visible swarm cells.

Holy. Moly. They are super hot. They were cranky from the start but the first accidental bee crush (I'm a newb... my fault) I saw them coming like an ocean wave. It started sounding like small hail hitting me from then until I was done. I walked around for 25 minutes after inspection with a cloud of bees around my veil. I tested the distance I could walk before they'd drop off and it was (guessing) well over 100 yards. And when I returned, the cloud covered me again.

I have my monthly bee school lesson this weekend where I will try to get some advice from local old timers... but any other advice is welcome. I figure it will be some combination of:
a) requeen
b) move the hive away from the house
c) soapy bathwater


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## sylvester (Sep 9, 2017)

I'm sitting here stewing and thinking that it may be in my best interest (and that of my neighbors and any beekeeper within flight of my drones) to give up on this hive. Even if I had a queen in hand, it would be weeks before they calmed down.

If I go the "big bucket of soapy water" route: is the comb reusable or is it ruined?

What about the comb with capped brood? Is that re-usable? If I freeze it and drop it in another hive, will they clean it up?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

if your friend is still willing to help you find and pinch the queen all the brood will emerge after about 3 weeks and freezing would be a good way to dispatch the colony.

if you decide to freeze with capped brood then afterwards you can use a scratcher to remove the cappings and compressed air to blow the brood out of the cells.

some do just let the bees clean out the dead brood but i prefer to get as much out as i can.


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## sylvester (Sep 9, 2017)

squarepeg said:


> if your friend is still willing to help you find and pinch the queen all the brood will emerge after about 3 weeks and freezing would be a good way to dispatch the colony.


It would be six weeks minimum. He's a local queen breeder and his queens are 3 weeks from being ready.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

if you are saying that he can't help you for 6 more weeks then i would consider going ahead before the mean colony can put out any more drones.

will the entire hive fit in your freezer?

there was some discussion about using dry ice (co2) to euthanize a while back, but i don't recall how that was done exactly.


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## sylvester (Sep 9, 2017)

I saw the CO2 in archives... and saw people with success and failure with it. I do have a screened bottom board that is likely to leak. Maybe if I have an IPM board underneath and tape up the back side it would be enough. I've also got a 20# CO2 cannister handy, though I am not quite sure of the "dosage". A 5lb block of dry ice might be easier.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

is your freezer big enough for the hive?


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## sylvester (Sep 9, 2017)

squarepeg said:


> is your freezer big enough for the hive?


No, not intact. I can probably fit most of the brood frames in there, but it will have to be after the hive is dispatched. The hive is currently 1 deep and 1 medium with brood in both. My shop freezer is just the freezer side of a side-by-side (though it is almost entirely empty.)

I pulled one frame that was mostly drone today and put it in the freezer. There are starting to be spotty bits of drone in the rest of the nest though.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

Has anyone besides you looked at the hive? By your own admission you are new. Just put the brakes on until someone with a little more time and experience can look at it. Maybe you could even get the state inspector from your area involved. I'd hate to see you make false assumptions and do something drastic. That's what all new beeks and many not so new beeks do.

I have a friend that keeps bees. He is constantly requeening and trying every new thing he reads about. He's gone from 11 hives to 2 and thinks that he just lives in a bad area to keep bees. I am a minimal hands off approach beekeeper. I do what needs to be done but I'm not constantly in the hive requeening, buying new devices, etc. I went from 1 to 10 in 3 years without buying any bees other than my original nuc. Could be I'm lucky and he's been unlucky or it could be more.

In your place I would advise just to be sure what was going on, otherwise you may jump from crisis to crisis like my friend.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Why not do like they did in the old days. Use a sulfer strip. 
Do it like they do in this vidio but kill all the bees instead of just clearing out those that could not be shook out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pozwoU0FKuM

It should work and you can get sulfer strips on amazon. Let the comb air out and use it agian with your replacement bees.
gww
Good luck.
gww


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

steve, read back through the posts. this hive is *way* too defensive.

sylvester, the screened bottom may help with the co2.

what about closing the entrance after dark, getting a plastic garbage bag big enough to enclose the hive, placing a block of dry ice underneath the hive below the screened bottom, and close the bag tight.

use a stethoscope to listen for quiet even after knocking hard on the hive. if they go quiet pull the frames and get them into the freezer.

never done it myself, but i would consider giving it a try under these circumstances.


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> steve, read back through the posts. this hive is *way* too defensive.


I did. I actually was one of the early replies. I'm just urging caution before making any rash decisions. It's his hive to do what he wishes and if he wants to kill them all that's ok with me. I hate wasting money and killing things needlessly. He seems unsure about a lot of things and a mentor would be great, but at least having someone more experienced look cant hurt before flushing it all and starting over.


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## John D. (Sep 5, 2007)

You are fortunate to have a breeder close by that can give you some queens this early in the season. Requeen when you can and use all the help you can get in locating the old queen. 
If it was me, I would move the hive immediately to a safer distance leaving an empty box (hive body, cardboard box or whatever) at the old location. The aggressive foragers will return to that location where you can give them the soapy bath. That should reduce the aggressiveness for a while.
I have AHB genetics where my bees are in the country west of Houston. In my experience, your bees certainly exhibit AHB behavior. 
You're doing good. Hang in there.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

to steve's and john's points, an alternative to killing them might be to talk with your breeder friend about taking the colony from you and splitting it into 2 or 3 nucs to be requeened with his new queens.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sylvester said:


> The next day (3 days ago) I started seeing very slight robbing attempts at my hive. I saw bees trying to find alternate ways into the hive and some amount of fighting. This is not the frenzied robbing I see on youtube videos... but robbing in my eyes nonetheless. I reduced the entrance and tossed a sheet over the hive. The next day I removed the sheet and I haven't seen fighting since.


another explanation for what might have happened that day is usurpation by an africanized swarm.


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## John D. (Sep 5, 2007)

Good point squarepeg.


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## sylvester (Sep 9, 2017)

squarepeg said:


> another explanation for what might have happened that day is usurpation by an africanized swarm.


My wife and I had talked about this possibility. It was so strange that it was like a light switch. One day we would sit out there and watch them, walk right by them to go to the shop door. The next day we couldn't get within 20 feet. We don't use that door to the shop anymore. We walk around.

I would have thought with it being a back yard hive that we would see a swarm move in... but maybe they didn't come in as a typical swarm but more one-by-one.

As an aside, even from a timing standpoint, I won't be able to do anything until after Saturday bee class. I plan on asking for old timer advice. I *REALLY* don't want to kill my first hive. But I will if I get to a point where I think it has to be done. Currently that is the direction I am leaning. But a confident, well seasoned beekeep could talk me out of it.


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## bison (Apr 27, 2011)

sylvester said:


> I *REALLY* don't want to kill my first hive. But I will if I get to a point where I think it has to be done. Currently that is the direction I am leaning. But a confident, well seasoned beekeep could talk me out of it.


Talk you out of being miserable dealing with tens of thousand of angry stinging insects?? Hmmm... Life is way to short to put up with a hot hive. Nuke 'em, get some nice bees, and move on. You'll be far happier.


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## sylvester (Sep 9, 2017)

squarepeg said:


> sylvester, the screened bottom may help with the co2.
> 
> what about closing the entrance after dark, getting a plastic garbage bag big enough to enclose the hive, placing a block of dry ice underneath the hive below the screened bottom, and close the bag tight.


My recollection is that CO2 is heavier than air. (I had a colorful adolescence with lots of exploding things with an unlimited supply of dry ice.) Think of a rock concert with the fog that runs across the stage and falls over the edge or a Halloween prop where smoke bubbles out of a cauldron. I would think that you'd need to close up the bottom and put the CO2 up top. To that end, I have a hive top feeder I built that is currently on the hive. If the bottom is well wrapped in plastic, I can take the top off without everyone flying out.


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## sylvester (Sep 9, 2017)

bison said:


> Talk you out of being miserable dealing with tens of thousand of angry stinging insects?? Hmmm... Life is way to short to put up with a hot hive. Nuke 'em, get some nice bees, and move on. You'll be far happier.


LOL. Yeah. I was all full of myself being able to catch a small swarm and nurse them through a winter with not much more than books, google and youtube to guide me. 

I have a nice nuc on order already. But I had anticipated having 2 hives this year.

A side question: What is the common wisdom for swarm catching in AHB territory? Requeen immediately? I know some states require that but AFAIK Texas does not. I just thought "they were nice yesterday so they'll be nice tomorrow."


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## Western (May 29, 2016)

John D. said:


> You are fortunate to have a breeder close by that can give you some queens this early in the season. Requeen when you can and use all the help you can get in locating the old queen.
> If it was me, I would move the hive immediately to a safer distance leaving an empty box (hive body, cardboard box or whatever) at the old location. The aggressive foragers will return to that location where you can give them the soapy bath. That should reduce the aggressiveness for a while.
> I have AHB genetics where my bees are in the country west of Houston. In my experience, your bees certainly exhibit AHB behavior.
> You're doing good. Hang in there.


I like Johns idea, it would lesson the attacks and buy you time to re-queen. I'd also tear down any drone cells as well.

FWIW, I had the same thing happen last summer, couldn't get within 50 yards of one hive without wearing a jacket and hood. This also seemed to happen overnight. We don't have the propensity of AHB here as you do, but it is here non the less. I re-queened with a queen from Big Island queens, they usually have them year round, or at least before they are available in the 48, then they hand of to Olivarez in California. Any way, it still took about 3-4 weeks to get a totally cool hive.

There is little doubt short of testing, the difference between a QL hive or agitated hive and a real aggressive AHB descriptive hive. In your shoes, I'd do what John said and then try to go in a find that queen when the numbers are down (if you dont decide to just kill them off), if you can, mark her so it's easier to find her latter and I'd sure tear out the drone comb to help put the breaks on this attitude being around for your other bees. You fellas further South, probably have to monitor this almost as much as mites with the AHB gene propensity.


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## sylvester (Sep 9, 2017)

Western said:


> I like Johns idea, it would lesson the attacks and buy you time to re-queen. I'd also tear down any drone cells as well.


This was pretty much my first plan. My last inspection made me wonder if I could pull off a move by myself. It was a tornado beyond what I was expecting. I still waver between "nuke em" and "I can fix this." Nothing will likely happen until Sunday either way. 

If I do move them, would it make sense to pull capped workers, too? I.e., replacing with foundation. I was thinking that would put Evil Queen on an egg laying break and give the hive work to do building comb. Of course, it might just make them abscond and make it someone else's problem. (I am reading that AHB are big on absconding.)


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## Western (May 29, 2016)

I didn't pull any worker brood, but I took out the little drone brood I saw. I also pinched the queen 4 days before I received my new queen, then I took down any queen cells they started. 

I bet if you go out after dark 30 and screen the entrance closed, strap the hell out of the hive, you should be able to move it. Might keep a frame out to put in the original spot, then next night go in and nuke the foragers.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

squarepeg said:


> ...there was some discussion about using dry ice (co2) to euthanize a while back, but i don't recall how that was done exactly.


I've done it. I use combination top/bottom boards, so I just flipped my bottom board over so that there was no entrance, set an empty super on top, set the dry ice in the super and covered it with a top board. Hive was completely enclosed and dry ice in top. Killed them off right away. Warning, as soon as they smell the dry ice they get meaner so be quick about it. 
I don't know how well it'll work with your screened bottom boards, maybe you could slide the hive over onto a solid piece of plywood the size of a bottom board to seal it all off on the bottom? Or maybe slide in a piece of 3/8" plywood floor board in your entrance that would seal it all off. This is all IF you choose to use this method to kill them off. If so, it works quickly and cleanly, nothing to clean up afterwards except dump the dead bees out.

Trying to keep the hive and requeen is also an option of course, it'll be a chore but doable. You'll have to decide which route to take for you in your situation and location. Good luck whatever you do.


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## sylvester (Sep 9, 2017)

Western said:


> I didn't pull any worker brood, but I took out the little drone brood I saw. I also pinched the queen 4 days before I received my new queen, then I took down any queen cells they started.
> 
> I bet if you go out after dark 30 and screen the entrance closed, strap the hell out of the hive, you should be able to move it. Might keep a frame out to put in the original spot, then next night go in and nuke the foragers.


You might be over estimating my lifting capability. It's a deep and a medium, both pretty full. Add a top/bottom and I bet it's close to 120lb. My back isn't what it used to be... and it wasn't much then.

I had considered following this procedure: Moving hives 100 yards or less by yourself *IF* I move them.

I set up a temporary stand about 50 yards back from the yard this afternoon just in case. I can't go much further without putting them in the woods.


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## Western (May 29, 2016)

Couldn't get that link to work. Have anyone you don't like that would help you get a strapped hive on a dolly, or wheelbarrow Slow as heck, but logs, or pipe on the ground will roll that sucker as far as you fee like push'n.

I didn't move my hive and when I pinched the queen, you'd have thought I started ww3, but before I even had the new queen in they calmed down considerably, still pissy being queenless, but they didn't seem to have the same size patrol routes, we could actually work the garden 75' away.


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## sylvester (Sep 9, 2017)

Oops. I fat fingered the URL. Corrected.

Just for fun: Video from a security camera. It doesn't cover the hive (maybe it should). It mostly shows the guard bees buzzing around my head for 25 minutes. https://youtu.be/4_t28x7vOBQ


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## Western (May 29, 2016)

Yes sir, that video gives me flashbacks lol, Almost a big enough smoker in the driveway to solve this quickly

Almost where you have to just flip a coin


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## sylvester (Sep 9, 2017)

Western said:


> Yes sir, that video gives me flashbacks lol, Almost a big enough smoker in the driveway to solve this quickly
> 
> Almost where you have to just flip a coin


The hive would definitely fit in the smoker. Honey braised ribs?


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## Western (May 29, 2016)

Well, it is Texas and BBQ is how we roll!


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## bison (Apr 27, 2011)

This is the one really hot hive I've had to deal with. Like you, I was getting hit by them quite a distance from the hive, not something that went over well in my suburban back yard. So I moved the hive to a friend's ranch (the video below) where they wouldn't bother anyone while I re-queened. A month later they were lambs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oxwyu14ZNX4&t=115s


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## sylvester (Sep 9, 2017)

bison said:


> This is the one really hot hive I've had to deal with. Like you, I was getting hit by them quite a distance from the hive, not something that went over well in my suburban back yard. So I moved the hive to a friend's ranch (the video below) where they wouldn't bother anyone while I re-queened. A month later they were lambs.


That sort of makes me want to try... but without a truck and a bit more land I feel a little stuck. I think my "wife timer" has run out.


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