# Swarm control, have we been doing it wrong?



## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

Thank You, now I know more that will help. How long does a queen usually stay in a hive after the queen cell are sealed before she swarmes?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I've had really good luck this year providing space and breaking up the honey dome as needed. One had swarm cells with older larva (not capped yet), couldn't find the queen so I split a couple frames into a nuc. Broke the honey dome and left them be (left their cells in the mother colony because queen might have swarmed already). Came back the next week, they'd exploded up into the supers drawing comb and filling. Tore down all the queen cells they had (they were about a day from capping when I split). I had kind of thrown in the towel on it and figured I was kind of hosed on that one. But it worked out well. There's... well, there's a lot of honey on that hive right now.

Pretty much all my bees have "unlimited" drone rearing space in the form of quite of bit of foundationless drone combs they've drawn out. It's not uncommon for them to have two deep combs worth of drones in production + tons of them in the hive. I never do anything with it (like cut it out). I just let them make baby drones... and give them lots of space.

But different flow patterns might make that difficult. We have a pretty nice steady flow that hits shortly after swarm season. Keep them from the trees until then and they seem to kick off. This worked this year with triple deeps with package Italian decedents, a package Carniolan decedent that swarmed at least 5 times last year, and feral swarms. All managed the same way. Reversed early... supered early... reversed again if indicated. They've all drawn 4-6 medium supers of foundation, some drew a 3rd deep too, have harvested two supers off of each about 3.5 weeks ago. All 2nd years queens and one 3rd year.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

It is my experience that breaking the honey dome in accordance with Walts descriptions is nearly 100% effective. I do not agree with the space requirements you have listed. I have prevented swarming effectively with far less than 17,000 cubic inches of space regularly. i do agree it takes a lot of space. For me generally dictated by the bees efforts to fill in the ceiling with nectar. I am aware that drones are required for bees to swarm. but I have always considered it a matter of drones in the environment not so much as drones present in the hive. again drones don't seem to make a difference in regard to swarm prevention. IF reproductive swarming is prevented there is to me clearly a point the bees abandon the attempt. Just when that is can be hard to recognize. I have simply come to recognize when bees are no longer building up in an attempt to swarm and have switched efforts to producing honey. At that point I can relax about the hive swarming for reproduction. My management becomes about honey production and those efforts seem to prevent additional swarming due to congestion. Swarm management requires a lot of time and attention. once it settled down managing the bees becomes a lot easier and far less disruptive. For me swarm management is largely space and honey management. never let them get a solid ceiling of honey over them. I read Walts book. and then I took the time to study it carefully. So much so that I found details that appear to be contradictory. but the overall general methods works well. I appreciate the detail Walt included, but for the benefit of many that would not even retain them. it is not necessary. if you get the overall general idea of keeping the space above the brood nest open and broken up that is all you really need to know. The bees will move from swarm prep to honey production without you ever needing to realize they did it. you will have prevented swarming. You may never know you prevented it. You will know your hives did not swarm. Would they have without all that effort? In my experience yes. One year nearly 26 swarms. I read Walts book and the following year I had two late season overcrowding swarms. No reproductive swarms. I got lazy and let the hives get to crowded. By the way I think bees supercedure any time there is not adequate brood in the colony. whether that was a brood drop from being queenless. having brood remove or whatever. I believe supercedure is a matter of inadequate minimal brood in the hive. Hence the tendency for packages to supercede perfectly adequate queens. I don't think this should be allowed by beekeepers. Beekeepers disrupted the natural activity of bees. dumped them in a box and then think they will act in a way that is normal and most beneficial to them. I don't believe that for a moment. I don't want to hijack this thread but did want to say my bit on a related subject. thanks for posting a good topic.


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

I started the year with a goal of controlling swarming better than last year. I reversed boxes early when needed and later in the season broke the honey dome above the brood nest a few times on the strong production colonies. The only swarms I know of was one production colony (2nd year queen) and an overcrowded nuc.

jwcarlson - I also use foundationless and my NWC colonies were drone factories. After going through the hive and finding 3 or more solid combs of drone I got tired of it and cut some of it out. They seem to draw worker comb better if you put in in the middle of the brood nest. The NWC bees are really gentle and healthy but don't produce as much honey for me in my current practices as the Italians and Italian-Carniolan hybrids do. I have a pretty small number of data points though.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

e-spice said:


> jwcarlson - I also use foundationless and my NWC colonies were drone factories. After going through the hive and finding 3 or more solid combs of drone I got tired of it and cut some of it out. They seem to draw worker comb better if you put in in the middle of the brood nest. The NWC bees are really gentle and healthy but don't produce as much honey for me in my current practices as the Italians and Italian-Carniolan hybrids do. I have a pretty small number of data points though.


I punted on foundationless early last season. Haven't looked back. But I do still use some just so they can put drone in the combs instead of between the boxes. I don't like dealing with burr comb.

Once I got to about 10 hives it was too much maintenance deal with the combs. Now with 20+ colonies all expanding like crazy I couldn't imagine having to deal with the combs... I'd go insane. There are much better things for me to be doing with the bees than pissing around with foundationless combs outside of a couple drone combs in production colonies.


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## BeeNurse (Mar 23, 2014)

Just a simple question. You state 17000 cubic inches, that is about 5-6 deeps ? Do many people keep hives that big ?? I do plan on trying breaking the dome. I appreciate new knowledge.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

BeeNurse said:


> Just a simple question. You state 17000 cubic inches, that is about 5-6 deeps ? Do many people keep hives that big ?? I do plan on trying breaking the dome. I appreciate new knowledge.


6.5 deeps. I don't think that's a requirement to keep bees from swarming, though. There's a whole lot more to the equation. 
My production colonies are 2.5-3 deeps with 5-7 medium supers on them. I always hate to see numbers specifically assigned to stuff in regards to beekeeping. As though 6 deeps instead of 6.5 is somehow insta-swarm. Some queens might be more than happy piddling away in a single deep or some other configuration never really outgrowing their digs if she's not prolific enough.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

There is no magic in the 17,000 CI number. It is the internal volume of the Perone hive which was designed in part to prevent swarming by providing a huge volume for colony expansion. The important takeaway is that bees swarm when they get crowded. Give them enough room to avoid crowding and they are much less likely to swarm.


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

BTW, great topic Fusion_power!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The age of the queen is a huge factor in swarming.

I disagree on this one. If it was a HUGE factor then I would not have any older queens. But I often have three and four year old queens. I may be a SLIGHT factor.


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> I punted on foundationless early last season. Haven't looked back. But I do still use some just so they can put drone in the combs instead of between the boxes. I don't like dealing with burr comb.
> 
> Once I got to about 10 hives it was too much maintenance deal with the combs. Now with 20+ colonies all expanding like crazy I couldn't imagine having to deal with the combs... I'd go insane. There are much better things for me to be doing with the bees than pissing around with foundationless combs outside of a couple drone combs in production colonies.


Hi jwcarlson - If you don't mind me asking, what were your biggest problems with foundationless? The worst for me is some colonies building quite a bit of drone comb (and using it over and over). Also, sometimes with several empty combs side by side they'll make one or more fat frames and leave other frames empty. Those are heavy as lead and tough to get those in the extractor. I usually have quite a few blow outs in the extractor too but my wife likes it when that happens - she gets the wax. I don't have much cross comb and they generally build it pretty straight. They seem to love to draw foundationless comb. Out of curiosity what do you use now, plastic?


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## akb (Jun 18, 2010)

What is the honey dome. Talked about in this thread.


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

Bees store honey above the brood nest. That's what they're referring to.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

e-spice said:


> Hi jwcarlson - If you don't mind me asking, what were your biggest problems with foundationless? The worst for me is some colonies building quite a bit of drone comb (and using it over and over). Also, sometimes with several empty combs side by side they'll make one or more fat frames and leave other frames empty. Those are heavy as lead and tough to get those in the extractor. I usually have quite a few blow outs in the extractor too but my wife likes it when that happens - she gets the wax. I don't have much cross comb and they generally build it pretty straight. They seem to love to draw foundationless comb. Out of curiosity what do you use now, plastic?


There are a lot of reasons. Fat combs, collapses, TONS (6+ frames) of drone cells, etc... but the main thing was/is TIME.12*6

I came out of winter with 8 viable colonies (went in with 9... one had queen failure).
Right now my colonies have drawn something really close to 500 frames of foundation (mostly Acorn plastic, but some Rite Cell) without feeding a single drop of syrup. And I'm now over 20 colonies (25ish, I think?). From four production colonies I harvested just over 200 pounds of black locust honey in freshly drawn comb a few weeks ago. There's no way I can extract that much honey from that new of comb if it's foundationless AND get to put the combs back on and have them now full of clover/alfalfa/basswood/whatever honey like they are now. And I cannot for a second entertain the idea of adding 3-4 foundationless supers the way I added 3-4 with foundation this year in late March in anticipation of a large brood hatch.

Let's say that of those 500 combs drawn... if they were foundationless let's say that half of them needed to be pinched back straight two times. That's 500 manipulations. In my experience a few... let's say 2% break off... that's 10 collapsed combs that if they fall right can screw up many more frames. My bee time is precious. Let's say 500 manipulations at 20 seconds each... that's over 150 bee minutes that I'm spending fiddling around fixing a problem that someone else fixed over a century ago. I got part way through last year and realized that most of my inspection time wasn't actually inspection... it was pinching combs, trying to straighten bows, shaving down honey bands built 2-3x deeper than they normally would, and putting the jigsaw all back together when I was done...

To be honest, I felt like a complete idiot when I inspected my first "all foundation hive". It was an absolute JOY compared to what I was used to.

I really don't mean to derail the thread into a debate about foundation/foundationless. Feel free to PM me... I'll be more than happy to chat about it.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> >The age of the queen is a huge factor in swarming.
> 
> I disagree on this one. If it was a HUGE factor then I would not have any older queens. But I often have three and four year old queens. I may be a SLIGHT factor.


Agreed on my part - Buckfast queens go into their 3rd year before swarming becomes a concern, & then only if they are crowded/goaded. Most often they will quietly supersede in the 3rd, or almost certainly by the 4th year. Twin queens (mother & daughter) are not unusual at this time. Swarming is apparently highly genetic - almost lacking in normal beekeeping practices with Buckfast. When you take the opportunity to observe bees with a "low" tendency to swarm, its difficult to argue otherwise. 

I suppose you could argue that "age is still relative", but if you are running bees that tend to swarm_ every _year, well -hopefully you get the point...


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Colobee said:


> Swarming is apparently highly genetic - almost lacking in normal beekeeping practices with Buckfast.


Does anyone know of a resource or have any idea where Brother Adam contributed this trait to? Was it selecting for it or did one of the Am lines he used bring this into the mix? Did the particular combination bring out "hybrid vigor" in the form of low swarming tendency?

I'll confess that it's been too long since I read Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey. I'll read it this winter again, provided biggraham610's mailed it back by then. 
And if you see this, I'm only joking, G. :gh:


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Make the splits, population control is key. Provide the needed space accordingly.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Brother Adam documented the non-swarming trait as coming from Greek bees A.M. Cecropia.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Whether or not something is added to the mix, most of the work of 'selection' is a subtractive process, not an additive one.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

An odd thing happened to us this year. We decided to make increase and so, in April we split the three best hives to make increase nucs.
Two were vertical double screen splits with the queen on the bottom with mostly capped brood and the open brood and some honey on top. We placed a brood box with foundation on top of the queen right portion. 

The other was a simple split; we took some frames with young queen cells along with frames of honey and made nucs from them and replaced the frames with foundation.

All three hives swarmed three weeks later. Well, one didn't actually swarm.... their queen's wingtips were frayed and she couldn't fly well. So they left, came back, left, came back. I took her out of the hive and left them with two nice fat Q cells.

Ironically, the hives we did not split didn't swarm. We took frames of brood and stores from them for the nucs, but did no other swarm prevention.

It was an unusual spring here. We had cold stormy weather mixed with beautiful warm days with intense dandelion and fruit tree bloom.

Why did the split hives swarm but not the others? I have my suspicions, but what say you folks?

next year I will probably go back to vertical splits with the queen on top. I like that.


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> There are a lot of reasons. Fat combs, collapses, TONS (6+ frames) of drone cells, etc... but the main thing was/is TIME.12*6
> ...
> 
> I really don't mean to derail the thread into a debate about foundation/foundationless. Feel free to PM me... I'll be more than happy to chat about it.


Thanks jw - I certainly appreciate the useful info. I may start a test during the fall flow. Much appreciated!


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Another factor that should be considered in swarm control is wax making.

Bees getting ready to swarm wll often save up wax making until they swarm. So triggering wax making by creating a hole, beside or in the Broodnest, by using a foundationless or partial foundationless frame can help.

This gets the young wax makers busy and also uses up excess nectar that is coming in.

The trick is to maintain wax making until around the Summer Soltice.


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## Bob J (Feb 25, 2013)

Daniel Y said:


> I read Walts book and the following year I had two late season overcrowding swarms. No reproductive swarms.


I've been reading Walt's articles but wasn't aware he had written a book. Where can I get a copy?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

So how do you distinct a non-swarmy hive from a swarmy hive? What's the difference between a swarmy bee and and a non-swarmy bee?

The difference is, that queens from strains/races of non-swarmy bees continue to lay eggs while preparing for swarming. 

Carnolians, as the most outstanding example of swarmy bees, have a rapid buildup. That is what they are known for. But their queens shut down egg laying when preparing for swarming. That way, once they decided to swarm, they can't stop short. Can't cut off.. And can't return to normal.

A queen from non swarming bee races continue to lay eggs. Those bees, too, start swarming activities, like drawing swarm cells and so, but you find them destroing the cells by their own most of the time. They can do this, because the broodnest wasn't shut down completely. They have the option while the swarmy hive only has a one way ticket.

Look for those queens, that continue to lay eggs during swarm preparations. That's what you want.

You can help the bees achieve the continued egg laying by:

1. using the right strain or race of bee
2. young queen that lays well
3. ensuring that the broodnest stays compact. That means the queen has a laying path throughout the hive. Circling and spiralling throughout the hive. From day 0 to day 21, when the first layed egg is emerging as a young bee. In an optimum broodnest, the queen returns exactly to cell number 1, after 21 days. So queen is spiralling through the hive, returning to the first cell right after it emerges.

Of course a young queen (3 months+) will lay more eggs per day as an old queen. That means the laying path of a younger queen is longer than that of an older queen. 3,000 eggs per day x 21 days is 63,000 cells length of the laying path. 1,500 eggs per day x 21 days is 31,500 cells. Easy math. 

But what does it mean? Practically?

Practically, if a broodnest distributes throughout many brood combs (unlimited broodnest) the queen does not return to cell #1 on day 21 but on day 30 or so. That cell does not receive an egg for days. Uh oh, empty cells. What happens when a worker bee find an empty cell...

During a flow there surely will be nectar stored in that cell. If there is no flow, they stuck pollen into it. 

Queen returns on day 30 to the cell #1. Oh, surprise, cell stuffed with nectar and or pollen. Broodnest will clogg with nectar, or backfilled. Whatever you name it. She wanders through the unlimited broodnest to further spread the brood throughout the hive. 

Fact is (means there is scientific literature to it): 

1. bees swarm less if there is a smell of tons of fresh young brood. 
2. bees swarm less if there is the smell of fresh wax. 
3. bees swarm less if the queen is releasing tons of her pheromones.

The further the brood is distributed throughout the hive, the less intense the smell. If it is kept compact, the stronger the smell of the brood. 

What you want is a compact broodnest right at the entrance of the hive. The foragers want to sense the queen when coming home, they want to smell fresh brood and fresh wax. 

With an adaptable broodnest (= follower board) you restrict the broodnest and queen to the near of the entrance. Old queen or not, you keep the broodnest compact. Queen returns to cell #1 on day 21. You can make a lot of honey with an old queen on three broodcombs! With not much swarming issues.

Queen pheromones are concentrated to the entrance. Young brood pheromones are concentrated towards the entrance. 

Fresh wax should be in the supers. Give foundation in the supers. Look for the behaviour of bee races and strains within it. Carnica bees like to store honey in old dark comb, while Buckfast loves to store honey in fresh young combs. There really is a difference in preferences! Thus is why Carnica bees are known to store honey "close to the broodnest" and Buckfast bees "far away from the broodnest". Wrong. It is a preference in what comb they store honey. You give them Buckies fresh combs or let them build fresh comb in the top super, you will find them store honey first there.

So the ideal dealing with swarming is, choose a non swarming bee (= queen continues egg laying despite swarm preparations), choose a bee that stores honey in fresh comb (= away fom the broodnest), do adapt the broodnest size to the queen's ability to lay eggs, keep on supering and providing some foundation in the top supers. 

Without splitting, or checkerboarding, or rotating broodboxes, or...any other weakening, you can really get the most out of that particular beehive potential. Because you don't weak the hive instead you keep the full power. 

That is the magic behind it. By preserving the full potential, you get the most out of it. 

Bernhard


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Bob J said:


> I've been reading Walt's articles but wasn't aware he had written a book. Where can I get a copy?


I had a copy sent to me from a member here. With Walts permission. A booklet might be a more accurate description. I am not sure where I put my copy. Walt actually sells/sold them. It is called nectar management but it pour pose is to manage incoming nectar and honey in the attempt to prevent swarming. It includes a seldom referred to concept of reproductive swarm cut off. Which basically indicates that reproductive swarm urge will eventually pass if it is disrupted long enough. In general this reproductive swarming period is associated with apple blossom bloom for Walt. In all if you delay swarming long enough the bees will abandone the idea of swarming and move on into honey production. at which time prevention is not necessary any longer. Here I need to prevent swarming up to about the end of May. after that my bees are far less likely to swarm.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Without splitting<<

Oh I wish,


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I've had excellent luck - and never had any swarms from my own bees. (I did have a swarm in a friend's colony which had come under my care several weeks before. Caught the swarm and hived it. It is my most-swarm-minded colony, requiring aggressive splitting to manage, so there is likely some genetic contribution. That swarm's daughters are also itchy in the spring.)

I use Walt's ideas (to the extent that I can understand them as I find his writing a bit confusing.) And I use MattDavey's techniques. And I reverse (and keep moving successive lower boxes in my tall stacks upwards as the season progresses.) Swarm prevention is the most labor intensive period of the whole year. Fortunately it comes for me after a very long vacation from bee work during the long northern winter. If it occurred at the end of the season I would be so tired of the bees by then, I'd just let 'em fly!

How many 10-frame deeps equals 17,000 cubic inches? I tried to do the math on that and it comes up to more than six deeps - can that be right? My winter stacks are big (3D plus 1M) and in general they stay huge all season, but even I don't approach that many boxes, and certainly not in the spring. I keep these stacks for other reasons than swarm control, but maybe that's an underlying factor in my success. 

I think Walt's most valuable contribution was articulating the reproductive swarm cut-off idea. It's a clear change-point, and once it happens, you're over the hump in my experience. I had been thinking during the winter that I would consult with Walt this spring and try to pin down more precisely what the lead-up to the repro cut-off looks like in my hives, since I usually just discover it in retrospect. But alas, his unexpected passing made that impossible. 

My understanding of Walt's "honey-dome" concept is a bit muddled. I lacked the needed drawn frames at first, so I winged it that year but since then I have been pushing my bees to draw me a surplus of deep combs. (In fact that is their principal "job" in my apiary at this stage, not surplus honey production at the moment. My goal for each mature hive is 25-30 new deep frames drawn per year.) By steadily reversing (moving the lower - non-brood - boxes upward and putting them on top - checkerboarded in Walt's way) I am preventing a solid honey-dome, but at the expense of creating a less-cohesive brood nest area as the brood area expands upward into them. My hives do not look like the tidy diagrams I see describing what's inside the boxes. This troubles me a bit, although I can't argue with the results: no swarms and booming hives in time for my big flows. But it may be that I am doing a lot of unnecessary work - not to mention what that costs my bees. I spend the rest of the summer getting things back into "proper" order so that I have the hives ready for winter.

I am also intrigued by the idea MattDavey mentioned: that of preventing the bees from storing wax in anticipation of swarming. I use his technique of opening the sides of my brood nest faithfully, and it seems to work, though it gives me combs that are unsatisfactory (lumpy and with too many drone cells for my tastes). But I have no idea exactly _why_ it works.

Since I don't want to increase my apiary much, and never lose colonies during the winter, swarm control is vital to my success. But it is such a tremendous amount of work - and so intrusive to the bees - I am highly motivated to figure out a way to manage it more elegantly. But simply splitting (the usual suggestion) doesn't really work for me. I do it only as a last resort. But my management goal is to have thriving perennial colonies, which I realize may be a pipe-dream considering the bees' innate swarm-goals.

Very interesting topic.

Enj.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Our bees never read this. We had two swarms in May. That's normally swarm season, but we had three weeks of cold, rainy weather culminating in a hard freeze, producing by some accounts the worst nectar flow in West Virginia in six decades. Most people in this area have resorted to feeding, although these two hives were not being fed when they swarmed. Both colonies had room, and their queens were only one year old. 

The old queen entering her third summer had capped swarm cells in June, but was still in the hive. We artificially swarmed her and will be looking for eggs and larvae from the daughters this weekend. And she was still laying with capped queen cells in the hive. She's laying pretty brood in the nuc right now.

Our inclination is to inspect often in swarm season and hope to spot swarm cells before they are capped. Then, perform an artificial swarm ... get the old queen and some staff into a nuc, to get it out of their system, because once they get swarming into their tiny brains, its hard to get the idea out of their heads. Literally. There is some research indicating micro-RNA snippets are responsible for programming bees for new jobs, such as nurse, undertaker, guard, or forager. Its kinda like downloading an app for your me-phone. If there's a swarming app running, you pretty much need to play along and make them think they've done it.

Avoiding the conditions that trigger downloading the app are the key, and our swarms this year violated the conditions laid down by the OP. But not whatever the bees actually use.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Splitting is the usual point of advice because it works the best, it is essentially what the bees want to do. 
As we build our apiary up through spring, we identify hives as swarm candidates. Then through our swarm season we simply cut them in half and add space. After the split the entire apiary has been brough to a common strength after a follow up equalization round. The hives build to their next population threshold after the swarm season has past and during our main flow which we add unlimited space. Their attention turns towards the smell of flowers and away from swarming and brings in monster crops.

Work load is my main factor in choosing how we manage swarming


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Phoebee said:


> Our bees never read this. We had two swarms in May. That's normally swarm season, but we had three weeks of cold, rainy weather culminating in a hard freeze, producing by some accounts the worst nectar flow in West Virginia in six decades. Most people in this area have resorted to feeding, although these two hives were not being fed when they swarmed. Both colonies had room, and their queens were only one year old.
> 
> The old queen entering her third summer had capped swarm cells in June, but was still in the hive. We artificially swarmed her and will be looking for eggs and larvae from the daughters this weekend. And she was still laying with capped queen cells in the hive. She's laying pretty brood in the nuc right now.
> 
> ...


Your description does not fit the requirements, as suggested, for "Reproductive" swarming. often I see these conversations side track due to those that do not take into consideration that it is discussing Reproductive swarming. not absconding. not starving to death not relocating due to any other inadequate conditions. Reproductive swarming requirements are. 1. A good nectar flow (which according to you was about as poor as it gets). 2. presence of Drones. 3. an adequately prepared colony which is a long conversation. Disrupting that preparation is the focus of nectar management. I suspect your bees left in whatever manner it appeared to be because their alternative was to set it out and starve. This does lead to the flaw I see in the let them fend for themselves elimination of so called weak genetics by some. Breed only bees capable of withstanding such conditions and you simply have no bees due to them being capable of dealing with the conditions. if they don't move to better conditions what are they going to do. make flowers produce nectar? Make honey from dust? Anyway even though your bees swarmed I suspect it was not for the purpose of reproduction but influenced by drought. Yes bees do swarm for other reasons than reproduction.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Ian said:


> Splitting is the usual point of advice because it works the best, it is essentially what the bees want to do.
> As we build our apiary up through spring, we identify hives as swarm candidates. Then through our swarm season we simply cut them in half and add space. After the split the entire apiary has been brough to a common strength after a follow up equalization round. The hives build to their next population threshold after the swarm season has past and during our main flow which we add unlimited space. Their attention turns towards the smell of flowers and away from swarming and brings in monster crops.
> 
> Work load is my main factor in choosing how we manage swarming


The problem I see with splitting to prevent swarming is then having colonies strong enough to produce honey. Splitting simply is producing an artificial swarm. It is also pretty well stated that you cannot expect honey from a swarm. I have not found that to be true but I have found strong swarms still don't produce a lot of honey. Splitting is not in fact avoiding swarming it is simply making the swarm yourself at the time you choose. Better than dragging them back out of the trees or outright loosing them. but they still swarmed. So technically to me splitting is not preventing swarming at all.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Daniel Y said:


> The problem I see with splitting to prevent swarming is then having colonies strong enough to produce honey.


That might be true if you are looking at a simple split, with a limited number of colonies. But the additional step of equalizing a yard with a larger number of hives keeps all the colonies at a decent somewhat equal strength. The artificial swarms created from splits are spread out over the other colonies and build up continues after the critical swarm period has passed. I don't have enough colonies in my yards to do this, but for larger apiaries I can see how this would be very effective. 




> After the split the entire apiary has been brough to a common strength after a follow up equalization round.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Daniel Y said:


> Your description does not fit the requirements, as suggested, for "Reproductive" swarming. often I see these conversations side track due to those that do not take into consideration that it is discussing Reproductive swarming. not absconding. not starving to death not relocating due to any other inadequate conditions. Reproductive swarming requirements are. 1. A good nectar flow (which according to you was about as poor as it gets). 2. presence of Drones. 3. an adequately prepared colony which is a long conversation. Disrupting that preparation is the focus of nectar management. I suspect your bees left in whatever manner it appeared to be because their alternative was to set it out and starve. This does lead to the flaw I see in the let them fend for themselves elimination of so called weak genetics by some. Breed only bees capable of withstanding such conditions and you simply have no bees due to them being capable of dealing with the conditions. if they don't move to better conditions what are they going to do. make flowers produce nectar? Make honey from dust? Anyway even though your bees swarmed I suspect it was not for the purpose of reproduction but influenced by drought. Yes bees do swarm for other reasons than reproduction.


Well, exactly. But the point is, the first two cases were clearly swarms, not supercedures, although the triggers were atypical. The third case was probably triggered by overcrowding, although the old queen had never swarmed before. We finally crowded her past the limit. But the stubborn old girl was not about to fly off, and as of last week she was laying like a new queen.

So maybe the terms need to be tweaked, that there is more than one kind of swarm. A "reproductive" swarm triggered by abundance, and a "Hail Mary" swarm triggered by dearth, plus maybe a couple of others.

The problem with this "strategy" is that the swarms are almost certainly starving to death. Milkweed is coming in but what were their chances of making it this far? The problem is present across the mid-Atlantic. As far as nectar management goes, this year that would involve putting the hives on a truck and driving them to another region. Bees are strong fliers, but they can't fly their way out of this condition.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Daniel Y said:


> The problem I see with splitting to prevent swarming is then having colonies strong enough to produce honey. Splitting simply is producing an artificial swarm. It is also pretty well stated that you cannot expect honey from a swarm. I have not found that to be true but I have found strong swarms still don't produce a lot of honey. Splitting is not in fact avoiding swarming it is simply making the swarm yourself at the time you choose. Better than dragging them back out of the trees or outright loosing them. but they still swarmed. So technically to me splitting is not preventing swarming at all.


Except that's exactly what I do, I split a month ago and today I have honey in three boxes already. I don't understand what your saying? 
Why would your splits not make honey?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Not that I said it clearly, But I said it is pretty well stated. Better put you read a lot that people will say. I did not say my splits do not make honey, they don't make as much honey. My experience this year alone has been at least one Strong swarm is making some honey I will be able to harvest. A second came close but does not look like it will make enough. the difference as far as I can tell was a two week delay in the build up of the second colony. It started weaker and took about two weeks longer to build up to like strength with the first."Making honey" means excess honey to harvest. I also have played around with methods of splitting until Reproductive Swarm period passes then taking all those splits to add brood back to a production colony. More complex method of preventing swarming losses. Notice I distinguish between swarm prevention and swarm losses. 
Phobee, Walt took care to distinguish Reproductive Swarming from other causes of swarms. I agree it would be helpful if such distinctions where recognized and made. To me it is kin to people calling a super a brood box or visa versa. Folks are going to talk the way they are going to talk. I have to do my best to comprehend. I have issues with the spelling nazi types on the grounds of "Could you understand what the person was saying" If so then what is the problem. I can't really then take much of a stance in regard to grammer and vocabulary. I made my comment more for the purpose to point out to anyone reading that there are other causes of swarming.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I think your over thinking things a bit


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Fusion_power said:


> Queen cells must be present before bees will produce a reproductive swarm. Swarms will usually issue sometime around the 10th day of the queen production cycle when the cell is sealed. It is possible to remove queen cells and prevent swarming. Miss just one cell and the bees will be in the air. This method is relied on by many beekeepers. Combining queen cell removal with other steps can be effective but is labor intensive and time consuming.
> 
> 
> 
> Please add your thoughts about what constitutes effective swarm control. Do you encourage swarming to get more colonies of bees?


My overall answer is no. removing or destroying cells once they have been built is a sign swarm prevention has failed. Now everything has it's exceptions. I don't take that is proof this claim is not true. show me how to destroy cells and prevent swarming reliably and continuously. I agree with the idea that there is a point of no return with colonies set on swarming. and that point is prior to the actual building of swarm cells. There are other indications of swarm preparation and it is disrupting those signs that effectively prevent swarming. they never build swarm cells. In my opinion methods such as brood box reversals unintentionally accomplish this disruption. but not reliably. it may or may not have disrupted preparation enough. The result is some success in preventing swarming. Which also to say some failure in preventing swarming. In this I see the wisdom int eh title of this thread. Are we doing it wrong? is the focus on the wrong causes of swarming. I have to say that methods like reversals are doing the right thing in part. But without knowledgeable intention of the details of swarm preparation. Reproductive instinct causes swarming. Good luck removing that from the bees. It is what they exist to do. A secondary cause of swarming would be survival.
The signs bees are preparing for reproductive swarming are. A dramatic build up of population. Commonly recognized and referred to as spring build up. No surprises there. A build up of nectar in the colony that can happen quickly, as in two or three days by my observations. that causes the brood nest to be restricted. The queen stops laying in order to slim down for flight. the forming of queen cells. Not necessarily in that order. If you have reached the point of brood nest filling you may have already lost the fight to prevent swarming. Not to mention the point that cells are being formed. In all I find swarm prevention is never an issue if you prevent that filling of the hive with nectar. As Walts book titles it. the key to swarm prevention is Nectar management. IN that regard I say yes. we are doing it wrong. we are focused on the wrong issue. the issue is not swarming if swarming never happens. the issue as I see it is nectar storage problems. Which luck would have it is far easier to evaluate and manage.

Some details from my observations of Nectar Management. The queen had a full usually large brood nest. for the most part this nest still exists as the bees begin to fill the hive with honey. The bees will put nectar in every available cell before the queen lays another egg in it. Overall I see it is the bees in control of wether they swarm or not. I also suspect they decide when. Prevent this from happening and the bees will abandon preperation for swarming and begin to simply produce honey. the queen will often move to a new location as nectar is moved around the hive and build a new brood nest. seldom in the bottom of the hive. Often building a nest that is described as a chimney up the middle of the hive. This appears to me to be as much like the behavior she would have had if she in fact had swarmed. starting at teh tip of the hive and working down as nectar is added to the cells. This causes a lot of problems and can actually lead to a secondary cause of swarming. Walt mentions it is his book and I think I have seen the cause of that after the fact cause of swarms. To me it as if the queen has no idea they did not actually swarms and behaves as a queen that has. she goes as high in the colony as possible and starts laying. due to the adding space method of preventing the swarm she has empty cells to find. The bees as far as I can tell begin to relocate nectar toward the outside of the hive and the queen finds just what she would find if she had swarmed. a small area of comb at the top of the colony in which to lay. moving downward as nectar fills in the space. she has a nice little tunnel down the middle of the hive to follow. She moves down as far as she is going to to then returns to the top in search of cells that brood has emerged from. this can chimney the brood nest through three or even four boxes. The secondary swarming happens when the queen returns to the top finds only a few cells to lay in then quickly has to return to the bottom to find adequate laying room. This leaves a small patch of new brood isolated from the presence of the queen. what happens when bees have brood and no queen. that's right they make queen cells. and I have seen this in my hives time and again. A tiny patch of brood in the top box with queen cells being drawn. I now have added an additional step to nectar management for myself. and that is brood management after swarm prevention. Nectar management has afforded the queen the ability to make a proper mess of building a brood nest. it is necessary to go in gather up all this brood and manage it in a way to form a proper brood nest at the bottom of the colony where it belongs. Open up that bottom brood box and allow the queen to start again with a nest where it belongs. Swarming is not the only disruption to the colony that swarm preparation causes and I believe this is one more measure that must be taken after swarming has been prevented to bring the colony back to a proper condition. It is a condition that would eventually result in swarming and give the false impression that nectar management in fact did not work. When the truth is nectar management did prevent reproductive swarming, it also may have caused brood nest disruption swarming. a new name I just made up.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

I run forty+ foundationless, I use Walt Wrights methods with good results, but also added another twist this year, I move the parent hive away ( sometimes only thirty yards ) and place a new box with drawn comb and a frame containing young eggs with adhering nurse bees and a frame containing open nectar and pollen in the original hive's location. This removes the old bees ( foragers ) from the parent colony. Not one issued a swarm and twenty five of the twenty seven splits grew into strong colonies. It needs to be done early in the season, for me it replaces the cut-down split.


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## Bob J (Feb 25, 2013)

Daniel Y said:


> I had a copy sent to me from a member here. With Walts permission. A booklet might be a more accurate description. I am not sure where I put my copy. Walt actually sells/sold them. It is called nectar management but it pour pose is to manage incoming nectar and honey in the attempt to prevent swarming. It includes a seldom referred to concept of reproductive swarm cut off. Which basically indicates that reproductive swarm urge will eventually pass if it is disrupted long enough. In general this reproductive swarming period is associated with apple blossom bloom for Walt. In all if you delay swarming long enough the bees will abandone the idea of swarming and move on into honey production. at which time prevention is not necessary any longer. Here I need to prevent swarming up to about the end of May. after that my bees are far less likely to swarm.


Thanks! I was able to find it in the archives so will give it a read.... Much appreciated! nectar-management-101/


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## Pooh Bear (Jun 19, 2015)

Splitting as a method of swarm control has one big downside in my view - I don't want more hives. I have a small garden and already have enough bees in two hives. If I split then I am in the bee rearing business not honey.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@Pooh Bear,

Then consider using Snelgrove boards next spring to give you the flexibility to make the split (if all other anti-swarming efforts appear to be about to fail), then forestall the split from becoming queenright, then recombining the two parts back into a single colony once the bees have settled back.

I am in the same boat: I don't particularly want to grow my apiary much, nor to produce additional colonies for sale or giving away, but my wintering success doesn't make me need replacement colonies, either.

Snelgrove boards were just the ticket for me. 

Enj.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

One thing I have thought of is to split during swarm season. then make a nuc out of the old queen recombine the rest of the bees from the split with the parent colony just as honey production begins. By then hopefully you have two queens producing brood and you can keep the production colony strong. Sell the nuc or keep it around as a source of an emergency queen replacement.


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## maudbid (Jul 21, 2014)

My goal is to have six production colonies. I had seven out of seven colonies survive the winter, even the nuts I started late summer due to supercedure. I had seven out seven hives swarm on me, even the nucs which I moved into full deep boxes swarmed. 

During this I made more nucs to ensure I had queens if one failed to successfully make a queen. I am now up to 12 hives, except one had problems making a queen. Despite giving it frames of eggs/open brood to weaken other hives it had gone laying worker. Thank God, I finally lost a hive.

I realized my biggest challenge is I run single deeps, which is more than enough to get through winter with our strong late summer/ fall flows even with harvesting all of the supers. This didn't give me a lot of options for swarm management. I was adding supers in April (above queen excludes, remember my goal is to run single deeps). I was putting foundation on the sides of the brood nest. I was extracting honey frames from the side of the brood nest. I was pulling frames of brood to build nucs. I see ladded a third box to the top of the 4x4 side by side nucs which wintered successfully. All in vain. 

I don't want more bees. I don't want to invest hundreds of dollars more in brood boxes I don't need or want. 

I think the only thing left to me next year is splitting and selling bees. Ugh...

This thread had been really interesting, I have new ideas for next year. Suggestions around running single deeps are really appreciated.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Maud,
If your goal is to have 6 hives and not have those hives swarm, you should combine the 12 into 6 double deep hives. MUCH easier to control swarming. Do as Enjambres suggested and you'll be in great shape. 

If you insist on single deeps you will have continual problems with swarming. Even with supers on they get overcrowded so easily. Plus with the queen excluder confining and crowding the brood nest you are creating swarm machines.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I've heard pollen trapping can help reduce the swarm impulse.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Ian said:


> Except that's exactly what I do, I split a month ago and today I have honey in three boxes already. I don't understand what your saying?
> Why would your splits not make honey?


I think what is meant, if you can keep the bees from swarming, you'll get more honey per unit. But you are taking a different strategy. Split em before they swarm out, then accept a smaller amount of honey per unit, but with twice as many units, end up with the same or more honey when the end game is finished.

I think part of the issue here is, 'split them' means different things to different folks. On one end of the spectrum, it means take the two boxes onto new stands, let the queenless half make a new queen from scratch, and give them both a brand new box of undrawn frames to build into. On the other extreme, which is more akin to what you do, it means split the two boxes, put a fresh new mated queen into the queenless half, then give them both another box of drawn comb to build up into. There is a world of difference between those two types of splits in terms of what they will look like 4 weeks later.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Grozzie
I defer to more knowlagable poeple then me cause I know I don't know. I have read in several places that two small colonies will not make as much together as one big one. I have also wondered about those that make a split and keep the split small by feeding back brood comb from it to the big hive. Or two queen hives being basically two small hives. Which way really makes the most honey per the rescources used or are they all just more ways to skin a cat?
Thanks
gww


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Can someone explain what it means to "break the honey dome"? When mine swarmed, there wasn't much honey,if any, but I am curious what this means.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Fivej, I will do my best. In a typical brood nest the queen will lay brood in something of a ball shape in the brood box. at the top of that frame they will start to place pollen and then honey. above that bees will start to store honey as well. This would resemble a dome of honey above that rough ball shape. It appears top me that bees produce a brood nest and they surround it with a layer of pollen and then honey. they are reluctant to move beyond that honey in any direction. Breaking up of this layer of honey can be done by moving brood frames to the side and adding empty frames. IN boxes above the brood nest frames full of honey can be moved and empty frames put in their place this produces a spot in that honey patch or dome that the bees will not see a a border to their space. IN a small colony I have seen this border form on as little as 5 frames. eventually the population will grow and bees will be pushed to the empty comb and start working it. but there is a noticeable delay in that happening. In swarm prevention this adding of empty space and breaking up the solid layer of honey causes the bees to focus on attempting to refill that space, back fill the brood nest. Which is one of the claims Walt makes that bees want to do to prepare for swarming. prevent that back filling and bees eventually abandon the idea of swarming. I imagine a bees life something like this. they are at the center of the brood nest with all the cells full of larva or capped pupa. they travel around and eventually reach the edge of the brood nest where they find cells of pollen. a little further on they find cells of nectar or honey. this nectar or honey tells them they have reached the edge of their hive so they turn around and head back. And that honey surrounds the brood in every direction except maybe downward.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I also have heard that a larger single colony will produce more honey than multiple smaller but equal in total size colonies. so 20 frames of bees will produce more as a single colony than 20 frames of bees split into two colonies. It has something to do with minimal numbers of bees given to other tasks. Brood nest doubles in two hives requires twice as many nurse bees for example. Having a mated laying queen ready at the time of the split is a big advantage. I am working on making splits now. So far we have virgin queens ready and going into mating nucs. will see how they start to turn out in about 2 weeks. A bit later than I wanted it to be. so I am also working on a schedule for next spring so queens are started in time to be mated when we are ready to split.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

Is the "honey dome" the band of honey (I thought generally) stored above the brood nest on a frame (and I understand it would be 3 dimensional (extending to the other frames))? Or does it include the honey in supers above the brood nest?

How do you 'break' the honey dome (and keep it broken)?

From your preventing honey dome by management steps you're restricting the area for the queen so she fills the frames and honey cannot be put above the brood, correct? Are there other methods of preventing the honey dome?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

No time for detail this morning. but check out information on side expansion of the brood nest and checkerboarding techniques.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

Sorry for another post so soon, but does anyone know how to get/order a copy of Walter Wright's "Nectar Management" booklet?

Thanks.


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## H Mitchell (May 25, 2016)

crmauch said:


> Sorry for another post so soon, but does anyone know how to get/order a copy of Walter Wright's "Nectar Management" booklet?
> 
> Thanks.


You can read/print it here...

http://beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/nectar-management-101/


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## J.Lee (Jan 19, 2014)

If you are running what some refer to as smart bees, bees with a very high varroa resistance, swarm prevention is an ABSOLUTE JOKE! We all know the makes and models. I have certainly mentioned enough of them in my previous posts. As far as swarm prevention I have tried them all. Let see, first year queens are less likely to swarm, not true. Splits can reduce the urge to swarm. I usually get TWO swarms. Rotating the brood nest is a total waste of time. Just try it. The next time you have to do some newspaper combines with some NUCs to save a couple of hives that have gone queenless. After the queens have been accepted and all is well in hiveland go back in and remove the paper left on the outside. Rotate one to the bottom and leave the other on top. Come back in a month and see where the brood nest is. She goes where SHE wants and its not always up. Tried the snelgrove board method out. What a way to screw up a good hive. The queen CAN communicate her pheromone now through a double screen. No queen cells in the top and the queen stopped laying. She started back briefly after recombining but soon stopped and then vanished. Used a NUC to save that hive. As far as decongesting the brood nest this usually leads to supersedure of the queen. Say a prayer while you are in the broodnest. Probably get better results. As far as checkerboarding goes that will slow them down and after fighting the swarm urge for five years that is what I now consider my best option. If they stay a couple of extra weeks I get a super or two of honey and the bees get to swarm. I then get a new queen out of the deal and a nice brood break to fight varroa. I never requeen. Don't have to. Just need a NUC on hand here or there for when the queen gets eaten by a pelican on her mating flight. Oh and another thing, all those swarms that go out. After a couple of years you start seeing some of them coming back to your beeyard. Oddly enough this tends to happen when your working them. Hope this helps.


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

Haha, a pelican. Lol


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