# Over wintering in polystyrene hives



## hulstbee1 (Oct 28, 2017)

I wintered 4 of the Bee Boxes last Winter, all made it through. Bottom screens closed with the plastic board, also glued 1.5" polystyrene to the outside of that plastic board. Glued with PL300. Bottom entrance open 1". .75" entrance hole in top box, drilled in top center inside of handhold. Used a medium(mine are all mediums) on top as a quiltbox, screen installed in that medium 2" up from bottom, a piece of burlap across the inside of the screen and then wood shavings on top of that. .75" holes drilled in top center inside of handhold, front and back. Fill the box with shavings, but leave shallower down the middle so air can move between the 2 holes and ventilate the shavings. Also, 12"x15" piece of thin rigid plastic(cheap cutting board material from Fleet Farm, $1.69/2) placed on top of the bars on top box, dry sugar poured on top of that up to the screen on the quiltbox. Hope this helps.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

hawkeyeegghead said:


> For those that use polystyrene hives (ours are Bee Box/Paradise) how do you over winter? I’ve read some posts suggesting leaving the bottom screen wide open for ventilation. If the hives are on the ground the open venting may be fine but on a open stand, off the ground it seems like too much exposure. Any other suggestion or tips for winter prep? We are in the US, zone 5b and the yard is open with little wind breaks.


The original and revolutional idea in wintering these polystyrene hives with no upper entrances has been screened bottom. They are designed to be wintered screened bottom OPEN and no upper entrances. If you close the screened bottom you will make an airtight bottle, which may end up as a death trap to the bees. No matter how high you lift it above ground, air is not running through the bees! It is making them drier and cooler. And BEES NEED TO BE COOL IN WINTER SO THAT THEY PROPERLY SHIFT INTO WINTERING MODE. Screened bottom wintering has been widely used in the Nordic countries, where winter is at least as hard as yours. Finland for instance is as far north as Alaska. 

If you leave the screened bottom open there is ABSOLUTELY NO NEED to make any of those complicated tricks that hulstbee1 mentioned. Just plastic and insulating roof (5cm) on top.

(I have been telling this over and over again on this forum, 99% in vein. This is so hard for beekeepers to understand that I´m near frustrated.)


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

Juhani Lunden said:


> The original and revolutional idea in wintering these polystyrene hives with no upper entrances has been screened bottom. They are designed to be wintered screened bottom OPEN and no upper entrances. If you close the screened bottom you will make an airtight bottle, which may end up as a death trap to the bees. No matter how high you lift it above ground, air is not running through the bees! It is making them drier and cooler. And BEES NEED TO BE COOL IN WINTER SO THAT THEY PROPERLY SHIFT INTO WINTERING MODE. Screened bottom wintering has been widely used in the Nordic countries, where winter is at least as hard as yours. Finland for instance is as far north as Alaska.
> 
> If you leave the screened bottom open there is ABSOLUTELY NO NEED to make any of those complicated tricks that hulstbee1 mentioned. Just plastic and insulating roof (5cm) on top.
> 
> (I have been telling this over and over again on this forum, 99% in vein. This is so hard for beekeepers to understand that I´m near frustrated.)


Juhani, as I stated in the other tread, most Beekeepers here have learned different methods. I am very interested in learning more about how Beekeepers in other countries deal with winter. You have certainly helped with your explanations. Don’t get frustrated!


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## hawkeyeegghead (Oct 1, 2017)

Juhani, thank you. I’ve read similar input, maybe one of your post about keeping the bottom open. Frankly had some doubt as it seemed to smash the thermal properties of poly hive. I’m very interested in poly hives after seeing high use in Europe. We have two hives we are overwintering in polystyrene boxes. One hive is lighter than I prefer. I plan to place fondant on the top bars, the space is tight. I’m wondering if placing sugar in the BeeBox feeder with out the drowning guards would help with moisture control (along with the open screen) and the bees may adventure up to snack on.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Paradise boxes are made in Finland. The director and owner Juhani Vaara is a friend of mine.
http://paradisehoney.net/en/

From their net site:
"In the normal position the top of the hive closes tightly. It should be used in combination with a plastic sheet placed on the top bars of the combs. The top can be secured against strong winds with a stone or brick weighing about 2 kg. During migration it is secured with a strap.

The 95 mm high bottom board of the BeeBox Hive has scalloped edges and an aluminum screen bottom to maximize ventilation. When fully open the flight entrance is 18 mm high. It is possible to slide a Varroa monitoring board under the screen and close the bottom opening.
The hives are recommended to be kept on pallets above the ground to ensure adequate air movement through the screen bottom at all times.

Generally the screen bottom is kept open. The ventilation through the mesh improves the wintering results. Not even dead bees and other debris can block the air movement during
winter. The hives survive even in situations where the entrance is blocked by ice. During wintering condensed water will run down through the screen bottom.
After the cleansing flight the bees start to rear more brood. At this time it is advantageous to slide the Varroa-monitoring board in place. This prevents any draft in the hive through the screen bottom. Without a cooling draft, bees will expand their brood nest considerably faster. During spring the entrance can be kept reduced to a height of 8 mm. "


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## hulstbee1 (Oct 28, 2017)

If you leave those bottom screens open for the Winter, please continue this thread in the Spring and let us know how it worked out. Nice to hear how different ideas end up working out, only way we can learn and help each other out.


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

I have always had open SBB year round in my apiary @ 8,000 feet in the foothills of Pikes Peak. In winter I do have a lower entry and an upper entry below a quilt box, and 2 inches of foam on all four sides and above the outer cover on all wooden and all mediums hives.
Steve


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## tonyp (Mar 16, 2008)

Hawkeye, can you give an update on how are your hives are wintering?


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## Buzz-kill (Aug 23, 2017)

tonyp said:


> Hawkeye, can you give an update on how are your hives are wintering?


I over winter in the paradise hives in northern illinois. We had probably our coldest winter in the 20 years I have lived here. I also use the Lyson hive. I close the bottom ventilation in both of these hives and leave a small upper entrance. I saw no moisture problems at all and not only is it cold here but extremely damp.


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## hawkeyeegghead (Oct 1, 2017)

So far the ten frames are looking good. One six frame hives did die off. Today we received 8.5 inches of snow after a few weeks of temperatures in the middle 40's F so we are not quite past the finish line to Spring. We are adding two additional 10 frames hives and six of the six frame nuc hives if the bees allow. My wife enjoys the light weight of the six frame hives which can also divided into 3 frame nucs. Lastly, I can't say enough about Blue Sky Bee, our BeeBox supplier. Very supportive with questions.


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## hawkeyeegghead (Oct 1, 2017)

Buzz-kill. One hive we left the feeder on, with no guard full of dry sugar. Thought was to absorb any moisture. I had a fair amount of condensation when I removed the top lid but it could have been my error with leaving the hive feeder in place. This hive died. In all the hives I've noted the bee use dead bees to cover the screen suggesting leaving wide open may not be suitable for our Midwestern area, your results seem to confirm. How do you create the top entrance? How large is the opening?


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

hawkeyeegghead said:


> BuzzIn all the hives I've noted the bee use dead bees to cover the screen suggesting leaving wide open may not be suitable for our Midwestern area, your results seem to confirm. How do you create the top entrance? How large is the opening?



So yo think "bee(s) use dead bees" to close the entrance and this is a proof that they need upper entrance.


Wow.
It is hard to teach you (beekeepers in US) away from upper entrances.
Unbelievable logic.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Screened bottoms are just plan silly. I would have no bottom entrance or flippin pneumonia screened bottom anytime temp is below about sixty at night. Canadians I know wintering in poly boxes have a one inch hole bored in the front of the box just below the hand hold on the upper box. Bees are fantastic ventilators if allowed by the mad engineers. I winter that way in insulated wraps cause I have no poly boxes.


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## hawkeyeegghead (Oct 1, 2017)

Juhani Lunden it was simply a observation from my few of my poly hives, no proof or science behind the question. I'm a fan of poly hives and simply trying to compare my observations with others to make better management decisions.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Typically when a hive doesn't carry out it's dead it's weak or weather is not warm enough to fly. Anytime dead bees are in the hive it's not a good thing Imo.

Screen bottoms provide far too much loss of heat and ventilation ,except perhaps for 2 months out of year July August.

Put a vent at the top and check for moisture buildup on cold days.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Vance G said:


> I would have no bottom entrance or flippin pneumonia screened bottom anytime temp is below about sixty at night. Canadians I know wintering in poly boxes have a one inch hole bored in the front of the box just below the hand hold on the upper box. Bees are fantastic ventilators if allowed by the mad engineers. I winter that way in insulated wraps cause I have no poly boxes.


Vance, is the bottom entrance totally closed off? Just curious. Choke mine down to 1 inch wide by 3/8 high.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

MY WRAP covers the bottom entrance. Not sealed but no wind goes in.


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## hawkeyeegghead (Oct 1, 2017)

It has been a few years and I wanted to provide an update on Bee Box hive overwintering. We are now up eight of the Bee Box poly hives with four Iowa winters. I've followed Juhani Lunden's guidance exactly and can report that overwhelming, our poly hives are exhibiting better performance year round compared to our wood hives. We observe stronger population in early Spring, Summer, and Fall. I leave the bottom screens open. I'm a fan and we will continue to expand our equipment using the poly hives.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I am glad you decided to give that mode of wintering a try so that you could see for yourself which course of action works and which doesn't. Much of the advice I see given on the forums appears to be based on opinion rather than experience. It is a shame we don't receive more feedback from other beekeepers as to whether the techniques recommended actually worked.


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## Trin (May 6, 2020)

I don't have any poly hives. I do use screen bottom boards, However mine are made so I can close them off with 3/4 ply. It is an experiment of sorts in that I angle drilled 4 down angled 1" vent holes down the sides above the closed out screen. (With screen over the holes) My reasoning is that we see a range of temperature above and below freezing during the winter with a lot of wind sometimes. I did not want the bees to contend with a strong updraft in the hive. I can tape off the holes as well, but usually leave 1 or 2 open. Entrance is reduced to 3/4 X 3/8. I also use a metal water vapor deflector over the top feeder box so that condensate runs into the box and not on the bees.

So far I haven't put in any top entrances. The feeder box gets some insulation. So far it has worked well. 

I think bees are somewhat adaptable to various amounts of air flow because they typically live in tree hollows. They also propolize holes shut.

So one thing I might try is to add some punky wood frames at the 1 and 10 positions to maybe absorb moisture and give it up. Sort of imitating a tree hollow.

Don't know what the average winter humidity level is in Finland but I expect it is on the dry side. Where I live humidity can be a problem in the winter. 

A tree hollow will typically have a 2 -3 or more inch thick wall. I've cut a lot of trees down and this is what I see. It also has walls that absorb and give up moisture. I don't know if anyone has looked at where in a hollow bees prefer their nests but it would be something to figure out. I do know that there is often a lot of empty hollow above the nest. At least this is what I have observed from video's of cut outs.

Maybe some data gathering of a hive purposely put in a hollow tree section might provide some insight? It would be fun to see what they do.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

hawkeyeegghead said:


> I've followed Juhani Lunden's guidance exactly and can report that overwhelming, our poly hives are exhibiting better performance year round compared to our wood hives.


Feels good. :thumbsup:

I dont´t know if the Paradise boxes in US still have grooved upper and lower surfaces (like in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_m08HBDS1E, these are much preferred in Central Europe, but not used in Finland). 
If you prefer boxes with even/plain/smooth tops and bottoms (like wooden boxes) they make them here in Finland, too.  



Company Mesimestari and HoneyPaw boxes. However I do not know are they sold in US. 
Here is video from UK. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR1nrIOjnh8


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Trin said:


> Don't know what the average winter humidity level is in Finland but I expect it is on the dry side. Where I live humidity can be a problem in the winter.


Sometimes, like last winter, no snow but rain, rain, rain all winter.


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## bwilson (Sep 7, 2019)

Last year I wintered 2 - 6 frame poly nucs. for the life of me I can't remember the brand right now. I got them from blueskybeesupply.com. Anyway, I was really impressed with the results. Those 2 nucs ended up being ridiculously strong for their size. Screened bottom was open. entrance reduced. and they were on a stand about 16 inches from the ground. both of them were proportionally stronger than half of my 10 frame hives.

With that being said, I live in south arkansas. Winters are virtually non existant. it only gets to the high 20's for about 2 days every 3 years. it'll stay in the 30's-40's for about 2-3 weeks TOTAL. the rest of the winter is flying weather for the bees. 

I'm still using those 2 boxes for making nucs, but I dont plan to purchase any more of them. I think for winter purposes, its overkill for my area. The bottom board has a weird shape which prevents it from sitting flat on top of a wooden bottom board. I like to put my nucs on top of a wood bottom board until they're ready to move in a 10 frame box right there. OAV is a pain because the hot tip on the provap melts the poly so you gotta kinda "wing it". overall the hive is bigger in all dimensions since the poly is like 1 1/2 thick so it takes up more space than what I think a nuc should.

It's a great hive body and I really like it, but I don't think it has much of a place in my current operation.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

I have 2 Lyson 6-frame nucs on the way with extra top box and feeders. I think I will like having them in 6 over 6 config to allow for harvesting a donor frame or two, assuming we make it through winter. 

This is my first year doing nucs at all and I have 6-8 left in Jester boxes. That's not going to cut it in TN mountains without wrapping thoroughly. Thanks for advice, I will likely move all my nucs into these in Oct.


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

I have 240 colonies, all of them in polystyrene manufactured at Superior Bee in Ohio USA. They are a full 2 inches thick. We are in a harsh zone 3 climate but I think the insulation benefits the colony just as much in the heat. I keep the bottom shut tight year round. There is visible condensation in the form of icicles hanging from the bottom of the hive because the condensation forms on the walls and runs down and out. I have no top ventilation at all. I do add another 2 inches of pink board on top of the lid for the winter, so about R20 on the roof and R10 on walls. Condensation may be a good thing as long as bees are not getting wet, because they have water to drink but also varroa does not like the high humidity. In the spring 90% of the top bar area has no water stains or mold, just a little bit in the 4 corners. My bottom entrance opening (the only one) is the larger of the two on a standard reducer about 3/8" x 4". 
I have this year started using the lid as a solid bottom board. I use it in the same orientation as the lid on top, so another words right side up. I do prefer it for quite a few reasons, the bottom board that comes with a polystyrene hive leaves much to be desired. The only drawback for me so far is that I have to make reducers a custom size as the opening is about an 1/8" bigger (in height) than the standard reducer. And I also have to make plug for the back side because the lid is open on front and back when used as bottom board. This plug is a solid piece of wood, no entrance.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

calkal said:


> I have 240 colonies, all of them in polystyrene manufactured at Superior Bee in Ohio USA. They are a full 2 inches thick. We are in a harsh zone 3 climate but I think the insulation benefits the colony just as much in the heat. I keep the bottom shut tight year round. There is visible condensation in the form of icicles hanging from the bottom of the hive because the condensation forms on the walls and runs down and out. I have no top ventilation at all. I do add another 2 inches of pink board on top of the lid for the winter, so about R20 on the roof and R10 on walls. Condensation may be a good thing as long as bees are not getting wet, because they have water to drink but also varroa does not like the high humidity. In the spring 90% of the top bar area has no water stains or mold, just a little bit in the 4 corners. My bottom entrance opening (the only one) is the larger of the two on a standard reducer about 3/8" x 4".
> I have this year started using the lid as a solid bottom board. I use it in the same orientation as the lid on top, so another words right side up. I do prefer it for quite a few reasons, the bottom board that comes with a polystyrene hive leaves much to be desired. The only drawback for me so far is that I have to make reducers a custom size as the opening is about an 1/8" bigger (in height) than the standard reducer. And I also have to make plug for the back side because the lid is open on front and back when used as bottom board. This plug is a solid piece of wood, no entrance.


Thanks for ALL that level of detail. I have 6 more 6-frame polys that arrived today. Already liking this setup, and you answered just about everything I was wondering. My hope was to plug up the holes and vents, keep it warm, and get 1-2 more weeks of comb-drawing and brooding on each beginning and end of the season. Our growing season is about a 6-8 weeks shorter than the nearby valleys. Of course our winter is beach weather compared to yours. Thanks again!


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## calkal (Feb 2, 2019)

Hey Joebeewhisperer,
Glad it helped you.
Cal


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

calkal said:


> Hey Joebeewhisperer,
> Glad it helped you.
> Cal


Thanks, I moved everyone into polys today that was not already in a 10-frame wood setup. I have one deep that's falling apart with a packed medium over it. I may go ahead and set it up in a 10-frame poly soon. I know millions of hives exist in 3/4" lumber, but I've never seen one in the wild with that kind of exposure. I like this high-R thing. Thanks again!


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## Lazy K (6 mo ago)

Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences. This is my 1st winter with bees. I have 2 wooden hives and 2 Styrofoam Paradise hives. Tons of info on wooden hives but very little on the styrofoam hives. So, again, thanks to all for the info.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

burns375 said:


> Typically when a hive doesn't carry out it's dead it's weak or weather is not warm enough to fly. Anytime dead bees are in the hive it's not a good thing Imo.
> 
> Screen bottoms provide far too much loss of heat and ventilation ,except perhaps for 2 months out of year July August.
> 
> Put a vent at the top and check for moisture buildup on cold days.


You lost me when you said to open a top vent.


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## Lazy K (6 mo ago)

JustBees, some people are cutting holes for vents. The Paradise box offers 2 different tops. One has screened vents & one has no vents.


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## rdimanin (Jan 17, 2020)

I have used Apimaye, Technosetbee & Anel plastic poly hivesm for the past 6 years in SE Michigan. None of these hives have upper entrances & I have great overwintering success on only 30 lbs of honey per 10 frame deep. Google William Hesbach, and read his article on the condensing hive. It explains everything from both practical & scientific viewpoints. I used to go the quilt box-upper entrance route when I was running woodenware but my bees barely made it through the winter. After a 40% loss one winter 7 years ago, I changed my thinking, bought plastic poly hives & have had successful colonies ever since. BTW, all of my plastic poly hives have screened bottoms, although the Apimayes have a tray that go underneath the screen bottoms, efective blocking a lot of wind.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The screened bottoms are not such a boogeyman provided they are *not* combined with an upper entrance. I did notice a bit of ice accumulation near the reduced entrances of the forward tilted hives in March this past spring and drilled a few small holes either side of the entrance. This year I am using a different mouse and shrew guard and leaveing the full width of the 3/4 X 14 1/2 entrance open. I am quite well protected from wind. No upper entrances.


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## Lazy K (6 mo ago)

rdimanin said:


> Google William Hesbach, and read his article on the condensing hive.


Very interesting article. I'm glad I have the 2 styrofaom hives and will be interested to see how they compare to my wood hives over the winter.


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