# Primitive beekeeping (bee trees, log hives, etc)



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I am finding some beeks confuse primitive beekeeping with honey hunting.
These are not the same.

Eastern Europe is observing a real Renaissance of legacy, primitive beekeeping ways just as we speak (near TF by the very definition; for sure chemical-free). 
Unfortunately, the English resources on the subject are very few if any (pretty much have to resort to Google translate - better than nothing, IF you can even find the original sources).

Here is a brief article about what the Poles have been doing (Google translate version).

https://translate.google.com/transl...larov-v-polshe-vnov-osvaivayut-lesnykh-pchjol

The original is an Belarus paper article published in Russian - the header says "Liter of honey costs over $100". 
http://vgr.by/vse-novosti/163-sosed...larov-v-polshe-vnov-osvaivayut-lesnykh-pchjol

I also already suggested someplace to run this google search just to get some general idea of what is going on in the primitive beekeeping world - "пчелы борть".


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

GregV said:


> Here is a brief article about what the Poles have been doing (Google translate version).



Piotr was one of the speakers in the Austrian Congress of Treatment free beekeeping in April 2018.

Thousands of years ago when the Finns were still living in these areas they learned this type of beekeeping and therefore there are tales of bees and honey in our national epoch Kalevala.


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## teplov (Dec 31, 2016)

There is a good law in Canada, it is forbidden to keep bees in non-collapsible hives. Professionals will not do this, but for amateurs, bees die from diseases. So this is a bad idea.


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## Greeny (Jun 27, 2016)

Probably not entirely the spirit or intent of OPs thread, but the youtuber Jeff Horchoff has posted videos of a couple of occupied tree sections he cut and moved into his beeyards. He set them up and allowed the bees to continue doing their thing. In at least one of them, he adapted the tree trunk to mount a super on top, but the main colony remains in the tree cavity.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

teplov said:


> There is a good law in Canada, it is forbidden to keep bees in non-collapsible hives. Professionals will not do this, but for amateurs, bees die from diseases. So this is a bad idea.


Let me just re-use again a video of a well-known keeper from Ukraine.
(he keeps the log hives in his yard purely for swarm generation - ZERO maintenance for multiple years; bees do NOT die while serving the propagation function well)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssV0sBaB0Zo

So, I have a couple of new log traps I finished last year.
They have been deployed too late for the summer - no hits.
If any hits the next year - I keeping those logs as-is, do nothing, and only watch. 
Whatever happens is fine.
There are removable frames inside, technically; hehe.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

As I slowly work through log hive publications, I may post something in this thread, as an appropriate place.



> Interior parameters of the artificial cavities in pine tree are varying: *80-120 cm* in height and *25-40 cm* in diameter.
> Internal volume is within *30,000-90,000 cm3*, area of the cross-section -* 350 - 950 cm2*.
> Diameter of the trunk at the entrance level is usually at least 60 cm, the back wall and the side walls of the cavity have at least *18 cm.*
> ........
> ...


Pages 93, 94.
Illustration 3.4
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._mellifera_L_of_the_Republic_of_Bashkortostan


Why care of these numbers?

Because, while these are the specs of an *artificial*, human-carved bee tree cavity as practiced today, these specs are essentially descriptions of the historic knowledge accumulated over many hundreds of years by the bee tree beekeepers. These specs describe what the beekeepers observed in the natural bee tree dwellings and then mimicked those specifications themselves when creating artificial bee dwellings.

So these are the dwelling specifications the honey bee adapted to over very, very long time of survival in cold-temperate forest zone.
As well, these specifications suggest the optimal micro-climate that defines the annual, normal bee life-cycle (of the northern bee populations).

Meanwhile, the so called "natural" Lang bee hive setups, as defined by Tom Seeley, are not even close to what I quote here.
What puzzles me is that while T. Seeley himself authored an excellent description of the natural bee dwellings, he then completely ignores his own findings and prescribes "Darwinian" beekeeping model based on the sub-optimal fruit crate boxes used as bee dwellings. That will produce a significant skew of the observation outcomes if one pretends that keeping bees in small Lang hives somehow represents the natural, wild bee situation. 

At the least he should have build thick-walled and tightly enclosed Warre-type hives of ~60 liters in volume with appropriately placed entrance.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> At the least he should have build thick-walled and tightly enclosed Warre-type hives of ~60 liters in volume with appropriately placed entrance.


GregV:

Neat stuff- given that I still have trouble conceptualizing metric, I was curious how this information compared to standard hive volumes (assuming my math is correct):

80 - 120 cm high = 32 - 47 inches
24 - 40 cm diameter = 9 - 16 inches

Volume min /max: 15 liters (one 5-frame medium) - 155 liters (one 10-frame deep and four 10-frame mediums or six+ 8-frame mediums).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> Neat stuff- given that I still have trouble conceptualizing metric, I was curious how this information compared to standard hive volumes (assuming my math is correct):
> 
> ...


Both log hive books I have stated that the swarms at that region really prefer cavities of volume 45-90 liters.
So ~60 liters lands somewhere in the sweet spot for the natural swarms.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> ~60 liters lands somewhere in the sweet spot for the natural swarms.


So it looks like two 10-frame mediums would be the ideal size for a swarm trap?

I enjoy reading your posts- interesting stuff.

Russ


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Russ I suggest you spend some time reading 
Seely, Morse 1976 The nest of the honey bee (Apis mellifera L.)https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269996264_The_nest_of_the_honey_bee_Apis_mellifera_L
and Seeley Morse 1986 Bait hives for honey bees  https://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstream/handle/1813/2653/Bait Hives for Honey Bees.pdf


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

With regard to that 'Bait Hive' paper - do bear in mind that was a scientific paper based upon a single-variable tabula-rasa experiment, the results of which were constrained (by convention) to the one single variable being tested.

A more complete account of the experiment can be found in Seeley's 'Honeybee Democracy', in which he reveals that in practice the first swarm being tested chose neither of the bait boxes on offer, but preferred to settle within the only chimney on the island which was being employed for the experiment. It was only after access to that chimney was denied to the bees that the experiment could continued.

Further, although Seeley doesn't specify the size of the boxes used for the raising and transportation of colonies taken to the island, they would almost certainly have been 40L boxes, the same size as the conclusion drawn regarding the optimal size for a bait box. Bees have memory and yet no allowance for this appears to have been made.
LJ


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Greg - you really do annoy me sometimes (meant in the nicest possible way ...), because I've already trialled Warre boxes and dismissed them. Not because they weren't attractive to bees - quite the opposite - but because their shorter top-bars weren't compatible with those of the rest of my circus.

But - in a recent post you were talking about reducing the number of combs for over-wintering - which reminded me of Doolittle's so-called "6-Frame Hive" (which was actually a 15-frame Long Hive, dummied-down to 6 frames prior to winter), and so I re-read his description of it. And what I've been overlooking with Doolittle's choice of hive was the frame-size he much preferred - that of Gallup, at 11.25" square.

Now Doolittle was no slouch when it came to running his colonies successfully, and yet he rejected the frame sizes which most other people were adopting at that time, and yet was able to successfully over-winter on just six of those small frames and then expand the hive's volume as required to either produce a substantial honey crop, or support his own queen-rearing operations.

So - long story short - I'm now re-examining the Gallup/Warre frame sizes, to see if there are any practical ways in which these may be incorporated here - some ideas around which are beginning to look quite promising.

Re: your figures:


> Interior parameters of the artificial cavities in pine tree vary: 80-120 cm in height and 25-40 cm in diameter. Internal volume is within 30,000-90,000 cm3.


If we take the median measurement of 32 cm (or 12.5") for the cavity diameter, and calculate it's cross-sectional area (805 cm2) - this would give us a square box equivalent of 28.5cm x 28.5cm, or 11.25" x 11.25" - which will then hold 8 Gallup frames at 35mm spacing.

If we then take 100cm (40") as being an average cavity height, then this is equivalent to five 8" Warre Boxes - which is not exceptional, by any means, for a full-sized colony.
5 Warre boxes have a volume of some 90L, 4 boxes 72L, 3 boxes 54L and 2 boxes 36L - so the volumes of such stacks correspond (more-or-less) with the range of cavity sizes of which you speak.

So it would appear that with regard to sizes of cavity and the combs within them, there may indeed be some correspondence between Warre hives and these artificial log hives.
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Greg - you really do annoy me sometimes...LJ


This means I am alive and kicking still.
And this is a good thing.
Also, "trust, but verify" (Reagan?).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> So it looks like two 10-frame mediums would be the ideal size for a swarm trap?
> 
> I enjoy reading your posts- interesting stuff.
> 
> Russ


According to one of my sources (Petrov, 1983; pics attached), the sweet spot for the wild/feral bees in the Bashkorostan is between 60 and 80 liters.
These investigators *actually knew* what to look for and did not spend the time on any traps smaller than 40 liters (a significant difference from Seleey works).
The *sweet spot* clearly preferred by the feral bees is the range *between 60 and 80 liters.*
Again - this is for that given location OR maybe for the AMM in general OR mb for the temperate forest zone in general.
But here are the facts.


--41-60 liters61-80 litersover 80 litersTotalsEmpty hives prepared (bee trees and log hives)504642138Swarms moved in1430549Prct occupied hives for the volume286512--Prct occupied hives to the total (138)1022436


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> But - in a recent post you were talking about reducing the number of combs for over-wintering - which reminded me of Doolittle's so-called "6-Frame Hive" (which was actually a 15-frame Long Hive, dummied-down to 6 frames prior to winter), and so I re-read his description of it. And what I've been overlooking with Doolittle's choice of hive was the frame-size he much preferred - that of Gallup, at 11.25" square.
> 
> LJ


I have been ranting for a long time now how the long-deep hives allow for creating internally the configurations similar to Warre/log hives - good for smaller cluster wintering (my strategy). 

At the same time the expansion of this design does not mean 7-8 box high structure.
You simply fill the long hive to its limits during the warm season - horizontally. 
One or two supers added at max.
But you winter in the long hive as in Warre-type hive - condensed, tall, and narrow structure allowed by the long hives base frames.

Anyways, since authentic long hives are poor from the mobility stand point (I know this first hand).
I have created a good, mobile hybrid in designs - kind of standard Lang boxes (+) Warre type frame only 300mm wide - setting the short way across. 
14 frame brood chamber + N of the vertical supers.

I will continue my stock deep 300 frame for the core brood area.
Though, debating the depth of the small 300mm frame (210mm - compatible to Lang deep OR 158mm - compatible to Land medium).
Main uses for such "small" frame - 1)ability to harvest small, incremental honey crops and 2)nucs.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> According to one of my sources (Petrov, 1983; pics attached), the sweet spot for the wild/feral bees in the Bashkorostan is between 60 and 80 liters.
> These investigators *actually knew* what to look for and did not spend the time on any traps smaller than 40 liters (a significant difference from Seleey works).
> The *sweet spot* clearly preferred by the feral bees is the range *between 60 and 80 liters.*
> Again - this is for that given location OR maybe for the AMM in general OR mb for the temperate forest zone in general.


Great feedback, GregV. Rereading _"Honeybee Democracy"_ against his '76-'77 studies it looks like the one thing not tested (or at least not published) is how hive volumes above 40 liters but below 100 liters fare as compared to the 45 liter average found in feral colonies- might suggest why the simulated swarm found the chimney appealing?

Also, the pictures didn't show up on my end- but the table does, and it certainly appears to suggest that 60 - 80 liters is the preferred size.

Thanks again for the information-

Russ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> ... the pictures didn't show up on my end......Russ


Some glitch.
Redid the pictures now - these are just source pages that I translated (to show that I did not make the numbers).

Indeed, I never understood the jumps from 40l to 100l and nothing in between.
That single thing undermines credibility the entire study and its conclusions, IMO.
What else was not reported or was not thought about?


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregV said:


> What else was not reported or was not thought about?


I had a brief email exchange with TS a few years back, and certainly the *shape* of the cavity wasn't on the radar at that time, nor *entrance position* - only the volume. Testing for just the one variable is perhaps the biggest criticism which can be levelled at nearly all biological experiments - an approach which can work well-enough for non-biological experiments, but biological systems are intrinsically multi-variable - and the higher the organism (and bees are pretty high-up) the more complex this becomes, especially where memory is concerned. Designing really good biological experiments is not for the faint-hearted - can be very demanding.
LJ

PS. There's also smell, texture, height, colour, entrance size - must be plenty more that *might* be relevant ...


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

little_john said:


> Designing really good biological experiments is not for the faint-hearted - can be very demanding.
> 
> PS. There's also smell, texture, height, colour, entrance size - must be plenty more that *might* be relevant ...


GregV and LJ:

Great feedback- I certainly am not criticizing Dr. Seeley's work. In my humble opinion, he has done much to advance what we now know about swarm decision making. I do think that the information that Greg has posted is really helpful and interesting as it makes one wonder what is the "ideal" nest volume with all other factors equal? It does appear that volumes between 40 and 80 liters gets us in the ballpark and then there are all the other variables that LJ pointed out (plus likely many more) to consider. It might also be true that the ideal volume varies by the climate and the landrace? Seems logical to assume that colonies in areas with longer, colder winters might prefer a larger volume than a colony in a mild clime?

Good discussion here- I appreciate you posting the information, Greg.

Russ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Ya, T. Seeleey's work is to be appreciated. 
He is still one of a kind and the pioneer in the field.
His report on the feral bee nest is no doubt is a worthy product (I do re-read it).
Have to start somewhere.

We now have Internet resources and this is really exciting time.

Anyways, here are few youtube refs to view the primitive beekeeping as it is practiced today.
In the spirit of this forum, of course this is 100% TF beekeeping and it is a good demo of the TF possibilities.
All in Russian, but there is plenty to observe anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj6ZbKl4PJ4&t=130s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svE2P4wpouU&t=1360s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cSZyyZ73Vg
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7cRfy1Ga-CAKpTYy9lBEOA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwkVNXUkWtU&t=52s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUuqPTwg7mU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwfEuUj1lKY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qrldi7JwbPQ&t=318s


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Greg .....
> .... this would give us a square box equivalent of *28.5cm x 28.5cm, or 11.25" x 11.25" ....*
> LJ


Meant to comment on this and forgot.

In all, I have been running my base frame at 300mm (Standard Ukrainian OR Dadant turned 90 degrees).
So I do appreciate the idea of the standard Warre being 300 x 300 as being ergonomic and energy efficient for the bee colony.
This basically tells me that the idea of 300mm wide frame is a correct one and is to be exploited in the applications (not only in Warre variants, but also in long hives as I do, as well as various hybrids). 

Basically, we have a premise that the area of the artificial log hive cross-section is to be around 900 cm2 (300mm x 300mm).
This provides approximate square that provides the most appropriate conditions for the wintering bees in cool/cold temperate climates (for warm climates this is mostly irrelevant).
To compare, commercial frames of Lang/Dadant are too wide at 435 mm and do not provide for satisfactory energy efficiency (not going to get into the geometry and physics of it here - those are easily demonstrable).

To this point, I want to quote my log-hive books again to show this Warry spec fits closely the observations documented in my sources.
Translations are mine and are just "close enough":



> .....cross section area of a carved hive ~ *838 cm2*


(Petrov, 1983, p. 85)



> ... cross-section areas of the carved trees hives vary within *350-950 cm2*.....


(lyasov, 2015, p. 93)



> ... well occupied tree cavities have cross-section area of *500-800 cm2*.....


(lyasov, 2015, p. 97)



> ... when carving a hive in a living tree .... area of the hive cross-section should be *500-800 cm2*.....


(lyasov, 2015, p. 99)

Basically, a cross section of a nominal hive of 800-900 cm2 arranged as a near-square is good for the bee (less critical so in summer time).
Anything smaller than 800-900 cm2 becomes maybe less practical as we have to deal with out standard lumber and about standard frames.
300mm x 300mm and its approximations is a good one.
My typical current wintering setups are 6 frames (~300x192), 5 frames (~300x160), 7 frames (~300x224), 8 frames (~300x256 ), 10 frames (~300x320).


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> ... here are few youtube refs to view the primitive beekeeping as it is practiced today.


GregV:

I finally had the opportunity to make my way through all the videos you posted. While they were all interesting, the first one was the most engaging due to the fact that it had the English captions and also a lot of the historical context mixed-in, which I enjoyed because I am a history buff.

It was really fascinating to observe that there is a definite practical science to the "primitive" beekeeping (and also a fair bit of government support?)- be it harvesting honey from natural cavities, making cavities in trees or purpose-building log hives- some of which appeared to have removable frames of a type. There were a lot of things I found interesting, but a few notes I jotted down while watching the videos:

1. They mentioned that the best wild habitats were found in linden tree stands but that they tended to have "bee trees" in pines and oaks. I wonder how the lindens there compare to the "tulip poplars" here which used to be the kings of the Eastern hardwood forest landscape.

2. I picked-up that some of these linden stands could produce 10 kg of honey a day on a good flow but that the average harvested surplus was only 5 kg. So it makes me wonder whether the beekeepers tend to leave a significant amount of the stores for the bees and/or that the flow is intense but very short?

3. They talked about cultivating a local bacteria in the voids- I understood to keep the wood about the hive void soft?

4. I can't be sure, but it looked like there were a lot of leaves on the ground when they were harvesting- do they tend to harvest surplus in the early Fall?

As always, you find and share some interesting and thought-provoking stuff- keep up the good work!

Russ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> 1. They mentioned that the best wild habitats were found in linden tree stands but that they tended to have "bee trees" in pines and oaks. I wonder how the lindens there compare to the "tulip poplars" here which used to be the kings of the Eastern hardwood forest landscape.
> 
> ...


Hey Russ,

Yes, government support is there. 
They currently run a National park in the area so to specifically preserve and protect the native and unique bee population.
They also cultivate the way of live of the locals.
Surely, they have problems - but overall I think this is a very good thing.

1. Linden tree is generally does not get as big as pines/oaks. 
So, naturally, bees end up in the pines and oaks mostly as the predominant "bee trees".
Linden, however, is responsible for 80-90% of the nectar in that area.
Everything depends on linden (mostly true for the Russian Far East too - hence, very similar bee).
Any other nectar sources are only useful for colony development/sustenance.

2. The keepers leave "enough" of the honey to the bees - naturally, they do not feed their bees (no one is climbing the trees with syrup and sugar bags).
They must leave enough to be sure having a sustainable operation.
Linden provides a very massive but short flow - up to 2 weeks or so.
The local bees are highly adapted to that exact condition - short and massive flow.
This is when they have their chance to make it or break it. 
This is a typical trait with the Russian bees, in general.
This trait often is not understood in the US and/or the Russian bees are not a good fit to many local conditions.
So we hear complaints of poorly performing Russians; well, need to learn the original traits and go from there.
The AMM/Russians are great at short and massive, mono-flower flows (e.g. linden) but are lousy at multi-floral, incremental flows.

3. Unsure here; did not watch that closely.
Important point in my book was this, however - the cavity walls must be of dry and rotten wood (the raw wood facing the bee colony is a big problem - it is moist and cold - bees do very poorly against the live wood). So this is where dead, rotten wood is important (be it soft).

4. Yes, "twice a year" approach means honey harvest at the end of the summer (late August/early September).
This is what you observed. This way the keepers know how much they can harvest safely, if at all.

Overall, that particular honey is priced several times higher than the conventional - this allows the locals to continue their business.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> Overall, that particular honey is priced several times higher than the conventional - this allows the locals to continue their business.


Good feedback, GregV. It seems like a really neat and unique cultural treasure that they can pass on to the subsequent generations, and indeed seems to be a part of the ethos of the culture itself.

Another great reminder that beekeeping is local- genetic stock, management practices, pricing/business/regulatory realities and fundamental suitability in general.

I enjoyed the practical and cultural lessons from this information. Thanks again for sharing.

Russ


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV:

This all may be old-hat to you, but I came across an article about a recent field day in Washington state featuring Matt Somerville (https://beekindhives.uk/).

This in turn led me to a 2016 article in the UK Telegraph which talks about the renaissance of tree beekeeping in both the UK and it Europe: 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardeni...eviving-the-ancient-craft-of-tree-beekeeping/

A few of the interesting tidbits to me included:

_“Historical evidence includes a Russian tomb from the fifth century that was found to contain a complete set of tree beekeeping tools,” says Jonathan Powell of the Natural Beekeeping Trust_ (https://www.naturalbeekeepingtrust.org/) _and a founder member of Tree Beekeeping International _(https://www.nsbka.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=383&Itemid=1264).

_“These hives [southern Ural Mountain tree hives] are left to manage themselves. Their honey stores are left intact for winter feeding, and they are not treated for mites and diseases and yet remain healthy. The bees set the density of hives, and there is no intervention to stimulate the hive or save it from failure. Evolution is determined by the bees and nature.”_

_“In a wild, unmanaged situation, bee colonies are subject to the adverse pressures of natural selection, and over 20 years they have learnt how to cope with the destructive varroa mite,” says_ [John] _Haverson_ (http://hampshire.naturalbees.net/). _“These wild colonies will provide the genetics of varroa-resistant honeybees, which could be transferred to managed bees.”_

They also referred to Piotr Piłasiewicz’s website (traditional Polish tree beekeeping methods): http://bartnictwo.com/en/

Again, this may all be old news- just thought I’d share if there was anything of value here relative to your efforts.

Have a great week.

Russ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> This all may be old-hat to you,....
> 
> ...


Some of this is new - will read; thanks.

I gotta say, they in Russia are really *behind *on the treatment-free ways.
They are, in fact, moving in the other direction - treat, treat, treat.
They are also concerned a lot about the Bashkir bees - well, somehow I am not concerned too much about the Bashkir bees as long as they do what they have been doing.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Below is the record of seasonal events specific to the said population of the Bashkortostan bees for 2006-2012.
From Ilyason, 2015; page 109.

I think this is a very good example of a phenological record that should exist for any more or less distinct beekeeping locale.
Maybe BS folk could start keeping such records specific for the local communities.
In my case it would be South Central WI, for example and the phenological events will be adjusted to that.

I spent some time googling for such local record - zilch so far.
Just some gardening records, pretty useless as they do not keep track of blooming weeds.
I hope someone will correct me, otherwise this is a shame.


Phenological Events.2006 (day.month)200720082009201020112012AverageTentative cleansing bee flights start.10.0316.0314.0301.0329.0322.0302.0416.03Mass cleansing bee flights start.12.0420.0428.0329.0315.0414.0408.0409.04Start of nest rebuilding.22.0427.0422.0430.0420.0428.0418.0423.04Start of mass flight onto willow.29.0402.0503.0528.0426.0430.0420.0428.04Norway Maple (Acer platanoides) bloom start.10.0508.0505.0503.0507.0513.0524.0406.05Norway Maple (Acer platanoides) bloom stop.16.0519.0514.0518.0520.0523.0509.0517.05Swarming start.11.0615.0602.0630.0528.0530.0528.0502.06Swarming stop.10.0708.0710.0709.0728.0620.0726.0607.07Small-leaved linden (Tilia cordata) bloom start.28.0606.0707.0703.0725.0608.0716.0602.07Small-leaved linden (Tilia cordata) bloom stop.16.0721.0724.0716.0714.0724.0730.0618.07Drone expulsion start.01.0923.0822.0819.0814.0810.0817.0819.08Last round of brood (start?).18.0912.0914.0909.0902.0906.0904.0909.09


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Primitive beekeeping gives zero control of bee genetics. This has obvious consequences for honey production potential. It is perhaps an ideal way to preserve genetics since the beekeeper does not exercise any selection.

The consequences of too small a cavity for the bees include potential to starve in a colder than normal winter and much increased propensity to swarm. I'm sure you have seen and calculated the relative capacity of a square Dadant hive and know that it gives 2.3 cubic feet (65 cubic liters) as compared to a Langstroth deep with 1.5 cubic feet (42 cubic liters). It is interesting that I get as much brood space with 14 frames in my Dadant hives as in a double deep Langstroth hive with 20 frames. This suggests a question should be asked about the way bees move within a cavity as the colony goes through a normal year. Would it be better for the bees to move up and down as in a hollow tree? or is there a benefit in working from front to rear as in a modern moveable frame hive?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Fusion_power said:


> Primitive beekeeping gives zero control of bee genetics.


I will try to find appropriate answers from the two books I am reading - Petrov, 1983 and Ilyasov, 2015.
I don't want to toss out the answers to your questions without quotable facts as I do not keep bees in the logs myself (yet).
Pretty sure I know the answers already, but need to find the actual pages.

Otherwise, primitive beekeeping does control bee genetics just as well.
It just does not do it in a way commonly understood and desired as in - more honey, less stings, fewer swarm...
Primitive beekeeping is very close to the basic Darwinian survival of the fittest for the given environment.

The only conditions where there is NO control of the genetics - where 100% of the specimens survive due to ideal external conditions.
Indeed, if there is no selection of the fittest, then there is no genetics control (an impossible situation).
Nature always does the genetics control by default - there is the default selection that is always going with or without humans around.

So, I disagree with too general of a statement - "Primitive beekeeping gives zero control of bee genetics. This has obvious consequences for honey production potential. It is perhaps an ideal way to preserve genetics since the beekeeper does not exercise any selection."

This needs qualification. 
It is not just about "honey production potential" and "genetics preservation".
Indeed, I believe we need to review the modern beekeeping practices and do much needed adjustment.

As you wrote you deliberately released many swarms into your own vicinity. 
What was the design and goal of that move?

IF I do a similar move (which I probably should do as well), my main motivation will be to establish a pseudo-feral population of the bees in my vicinity (since it does not exist).
I want to have some default selection going near me in parallel and independently, so that I can take advantage of that via the reverse feedback into my managed bees.
I have no idea what the default selection process would be in my vicinity - the only way to find out - establish some feral bees nearby and subject them to the default selection.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Fusion_power said:


> I'm sure you have seen and calculated the relative capacity of a square *Dadant *hive and know that it gives 2.3 cubic feet (*65 cubic liters*) as compared to a *Langstroth *deep with 1.5 cubic feet (*42 cubic liters*).


Pretty much I already posted the facts regarding the tree-hive volumes and *documented* feral bee volume preferences.
The bee tree hives typically range in volumes 30L to 90L.
Within this range, the 60L-80L is the bee preferred sub-range (which makes the single box Dadant the better choice over single box Lang in pure volume context).



> Internal volume is within 30,000-90,000 cm3,


https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...ee-trees-log-hives-etc)&p=1691811#post1691811




> The sweet spot clearly preferred by the feral bees is the range between *60 and 80 liters.*


https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...ee-trees-log-hives-etc)&p=1692135#post1692135


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Keep bees long enough and there is probably no need to deliberately get swarms to populate the local area. I had one spring where the flow was so heavy, my newly started nucs filled everything up then took off. Keeping bees treatment free probably is supportive (or not interfere too much) of feral populations so long as we don't bring in new problems for them to deal with. Perhaps the health of local bee populations can be evaluated by the health and persistence of feral populations of bees.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

lharder said:


> Keep bees long enough and there is probably no need to deliberately get swarms to populate the local area. Keeping bees treatment free probably is supportive (or not interfere too much) of feral populations so long as we don't bring in new problems for them to deal with.


The "long enough" part is the unknown.
I might croak and do not get to see it before anything comes around (and IF it comes around - remember my "almond bee" annual loads).
That would be a real shame.

You know, time is the most limited and valuable resource we get. 
No IFs; no BUTs. 
You get no extra shots.

The "wait and see" approach in certain areas is not the best way, I feel.
Undertaking some deliberate steps is a better way.

I do not want to send swarms out - I find it ineffective in my area (they will just likely perish and be wasted).
But, I do find it reasonable to actually set out several pseudo-feral units in the vicinity, in protected areas, and rather keep them low profile (or face prosecution, literally).
(be it actual log hives for the fun of it - posing as "swarm traps").
Hint, hint...


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> I think this is a very good example of a phenological record that should exist for any more or less distinct beekeeping locale.
> Maybe BS folk could start keeping such records specific for the local communities. In my case it would be South Central WI, for example and the phenological events will be adjusted to that.


GregV:

I don’t know if this will help you, but I asked a similar question on a recent thread (https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?351987-Swarm-Date-versus-Overwintering-Success), and I got some very helpful feedback from Eikel. Specifically, he forwarded me a link to greencastonline.com, where one can look up the growing degree-days for your specific locale and then cross-reference this to a GDD versus phenological cue benchmarks from a resource by The Ohio State:

http://www.greencastonline.com/growing-degree-days/home
https://www.oardc.ohio-state.edu/gdd...w.asp?fill=all



GregV said:


> I do not want to send swarms out - I find it ineffective in my area (they will just likely perish and be wasted).
> But, I do find it reasonable to actually set out several pseudo-feral units in the vicinity, in protected areas...


I think this is a neat idea, and I am looking forward to seeing how this project develops for you.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Fusion_power said:


> ....This suggests a question should be asked about the way bees move within a cavity as the colony goes through a normal year. Would it be better for the bees to move up and down as in a hollow tree? or is there a benefit in working from front to rear as in a modern moveable frame hive?


So, before getting into this discussion or even getting into it at all, consider this:
* the wild bees I have been reporting about are located in USDA zone 3 (see attached map)







* depending on where you are exactly, it is USDA zone 7 at least.

The requirements of the wild bees to survive are clearly much higher as the room for error is very small if they are to survive.
To compare, zones 7-9 are very forgiving.

In this context, the optimal hive requirements are different.
For example, in zone 3 keeping bees in a typical TBH is pretty much insane as the bees are not likely to move much from the front to the back at all (crossing comb upon comb will end badly).
Keeping the bees in the Dadants is somewhat forgiving as the bees will typically move *along *the same comb in horizontal fashion from front to the back (better than crossing the combs).
However, moving up and up along the continuous vertical honey storage is, of course, the most forgiving setup (tree or a tree-like dwelling with vertically oriented combs).

The kept bees in that same area (zones 2, 3) are routinely kept in various Dadant models (12/14/16 frame) rather due to post-Soviet convention (one frame size for everyone).
However, they are wintered in sheds/controlled storage OR wintered outside in heavy hives under snow piles.
Being the kept bees, they are also provisioned as needed so not to run out of the stores (which compensates the sub-optimal hives for the area).

I grew in the area North-West of the Bashkortostan (still zone 3).
We ran 12 frame, square Dadants; built double-walled for outside wintering; heavy as death.
Initially they wintered under snow; eventually the house basement was used at the expense of moving these monsters.

Here is a channel of a keeper from the Urals ares that I follow (USDA zone 2 - just North of Bashkortostan).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjgcj9UuDpo


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Checked on the latest status of the wild/feral bees of the Bashkortostan.

Here is my source:
http://ylejbees.com/index.php/porod.../1143-burzyanskie-bortevye-pchely-i-varroatoz

I pulled out few significant facts (apparently some of these facts are coming back from the 80s yet - hence the 10 year window referenced):



> Varroatos in Bashkortostan was first documented in *1973*.





> The existence of the boorzyan tree bees under the conditions of varroa invasion for 10 years *without any prophylactic measures whatsoever* and consistent increase in the bee colony numbers in 1980-1986 demonstrate that the *these bees were able to adapt to the new parasite*. In 1981-1982, there were many documented cases of absconding from the bee trees and non-viable swarms, but later such cases became less visible.
> 
> At present, .............the very conditions of the primitive beekeeping in combination with the continuing improving bee survival create conditions of the* boorzyan tree bees to be in equilibrium with the new parasite*.
> 
> *Similar favorable condition could develop in other honey bee populations where the human impact on the natural complexes is not significant.*


In short, the Bashkortostan wild/feral bees pretty much adapted to Varroa on their own and they are not going to die off.
These bees are doing fine and not going anywhere.
If anything, this is just another story of the "Russian" bees that has been developing right in front of us.
I am surprised no one is talking about it - maybe because the story is inconvenient in many ways to many invested parties.

Large cell too - 5.4mm-5.5mm naturally.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV:

Not exactly primitive beekeeping, but thought the locale and management approaches might interest you if you were not already aware of this program?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz7...xI5TL5jRRpU-9jMtwTIc6HKky41xdnnM26wxe9J_MgUYY

I do wish I could get into the business of selling queens for $10,000 US apiece


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> Not exactly primitive beekeeping, but thought the locale and management approaches might interest you if you were not already aware of this program?
> 
> ...


Thanks; did not see this one.

Jump to 7:30 and watch how an old lady buys 7 queens.
What? 
They just handed her over $70,000 worth of queens as if these were some cucumbers???? 
I did not think so.
As often gets noticed, movie producers are either lying or uninitiated to make much sense.

PS: they did say $10,000 apiece;
yet they don't have any armed guards standing around while handling hundreds of thousands bucks worth of queens? 
gimme a break... I'd raid the **** place as soon as I watch his video with a plastic gun and snatch a box full those bees (a joke but see what I mean?).
PSS: I did observe nice and old, long Dadant hives that they run; good, classic pieces


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> Jump to 7:30 and watch how an old lady buys 7 queens.
> What?
> They just handed her over $70,000 worth of queens as if these were some cucumbers????
> I did not think so.


Could it be 10,000 rubles? I notice that the current exchange rate works out to about $150 US?

I noticed that they also mentioned that the good doctor manages 35 colonies and has 200 employees- now that is a job I think I could handle... I think they meant 35 yards...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> Could it be 10,000 rubles? I notice that the current exchange rate works out to about $150 US?
> 
> I noticed that they also mentioned that the good doctor manages 35 colonies and has 200 employees- now that is a job I think I could handle... I think they meant 35 yards...


Donno, Russ.
Pretty soon I lost track of all the inconsistencies and just stopped following.
Double-lost in translation.
I often find much more utility in such videos when visually inspecting the actual video context captured (you can turn off the audio, do FF and RW - very handy).
Lots of times audio and video contents are in brazen disagreement.
So the makers are either lying to the uninformed OR the uninformed themselves.


PS, heck if I figure out a way to sell queens for $150, I'd be totally content with that; hehehe.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Fusion_power said:


> Primitive beekeeping gives zero control of bee genetics. This has obvious consequences for honey production potential. It is perhaps an ideal way to preserve genetics since the beekeeper does not exercise any selection.
> 
> The consequences of too small a cavity for the bees include potential to starve in a colder than normal winter and much increased propensity to swarm. I'm sure you have seen and calculated the relative capacity of a square Dadant hive and know that it gives 2.3 cubic feet (65 cubic liters) as compared to a Langstroth deep with 1.5 cubic feet (42 cubic liters). It is interesting that I get as much brood space with 14 frames in my Dadant hives as in a double deep Langstroth hive with 20 frames. This suggests a question should be asked about the way bees move within a cavity as the colony goes through a normal year. *Would it be better for the bees to move up and down as in a hollow tree? or is there a benefit in working from front to rear as in a modern moveable frame hive?*


I did not forget of these questions and kept pulling up old and modern resources on the subject.

A very short answer is again pointing to the origins of the bee races - hence I have bee ranting on importance of understanding of those (before anything else).
I am attaching few maps here to visually demonstrate my points - if interested - study the maps and consider how different bee races come from different ecological zones and how they might fit into the North American situation (very very different).

These pics give some general idea of how you try to fit situation from Eurasia into North America (the easiest way - to just ignore it all - what exactly what happens).






















Important points:
1) some Eurasian bees come from flat lands, low lands, higher lands but importantly *highly forested with lots of old growth tree resources* - typical Amm, probably Carpathians/Carnica
2) other Eurasian bees come come from high altitude high lands, *largely empty of the tree-bases habitat* - Gray Caucasian is a typical case
3) other Eurasian bees come from lower land locations *largely free of the conventional tree-bases habitat* - Yellow Caucasians, Ukrainian, Persian, probably Italian.
4) other cases - not getting into (yet other Eurasians, Africans)

So, the #1 bees evolutionary ways to survive was in trees - their traits formed around vertical tree cavity survival. 
Noticably, ground-based cavities are not available in these zones and not suitable to live in them (even if found).

The #2/#3 bees formed to survival is much more dynamic and variable - we are talking of tree cavities (both vertical and horizontal on the surface) as well as ground-based cavities (caves, crevices, animal holes, vertical mountain drops, etc). Also, generally types #2 and #3 are coming from lower latitudes (meaning generally milder winters).

So, the brief resume is this:
* some bees by their evolution evolved to manage their survival in colder climate using *vertical tree cavities*
* other bees evolved to survive in less structured ways and are good in taking advantages of many variations of *horizontal dwellings*

Later the primitive beekeeping started mimicking the ways the wild bees lived as it was understood that* bees required it.*
Here is very clear trend of keeping bees in vertical log hives - conventional Russian way - keeping AMM bees - see #1.
The old Caucasian ways to keep bees are in horizontal logs and weaved baskets (skep variations) - keeping Caucasian bees - see #2/#3.
I also posted videos of how primitive beekeepers keep their bees in horizontal clay pipes in Arabic localities.

Notice - the primitive beekeepers simple emulate the ways wild bees live in their particular ecological localities.

Now when we are talking of: 
*Would it be better for the bees to move up and down as in a hollow tree? or is there a benefit in working from front to rear as in a modern moveable frame hive?*
And we are asking these questions in the context 
* of hodge-podge pile of mutts in the USA 
* of unknown origins 
* of uknown hybridization status
* of ecological localities totally different from the original bee sources (in the Old World)
* without local US clarification (WI vs. AL, very generally)


I am scratching my head and saying - we are in undefined territory and don't even understand what is going on and don'e even know what kind of animal we have on hand.
In case of a Russian/Italian hybrid - some part of this hybrid is looking for an empty tree and the other half is looking for a hole in a ground.
There is no answer.

One thing makes me smile - people complain of "chimney effect" when the get some Russian-type of the bees.
Yes - those bees are looking of an empty tree. 
That what they evolved to live in.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

The original bee race distributions.
The case of the USSR - they were planning where any particular bee will be a good fit per the local factors (climate, ecology) - that is the planning map for bee introductions, only partially factual.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

> E.P. Petrov draws attention to the peculiarity of the structure of the bee's nest in the conditions of the natural existence of the family. The entire upper part of the dwelling forms a food storage, and below them is a compact nest with brood woven by numerous bridges between cells. Such a structure creates unity, increases the internal compactness of the nest, located in a vertical space, which contributes to the economical use of food and good family development. When bees are hibernating in the hollow, the relative position of the food, brood and letka stocks is of great importance. Between them there is a constant interaction. *In the autumn-winter period,* when the development of the family is completely stopped and the feed consumption of bees is limited to a minimum, *the bee club moves only upwards following the diminishing feed reserves*, but at the same time it is “tied” to one of the entrances. As the cluster moves away from the entrance the its shape changes, and in the second half of the wintering season it has a slightly elongated shape, so that the edge of the cluster is always next to an entrance. Since the bees in the winter cluster are constantly changing places, each of them periodically falls into the zone of fresh air coming from the entrance.


So this particular quote only applies only to the northern-style bee living in a vertical bee-tree (and its artificial emulations).
And also, this particular context is well studied and documented.
One issue - somehow this particular context is assigned to ALL bees.
Unsure why so - the context disagreements are so very obvious once you start looking at the places where the bees are coming from originally.

To compare, for Gray Caucasion normal habitat is caves and cracks in mountain sides - with totally different dimensional dynamics and seasonal moves (horizontal seasonal moves maybe indeed common). 
I am yet to find any good study on this exact subject.
There is just none to be found it feels like.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> The "long enough" part is the unknown.
> I might croak and do not get to see it before anything comes around (and IF it comes around - remember my "almond bee" annual loads).
> That would be a real shame.
> 
> ...


Greg if you are looking for a good wood working project for the weekend, this is an interesting DYI log hive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28R67u-4efs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgBN4hZ_HPk


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> Greg if you are looking for a good wood working project for the weekend, this is an interesting DYI log hive.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28R67u-4efs
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgBN4hZ_HPk


Yes; cool projects.
Have to have a good chain saw and a property away from neighbors "overly-sensitive" over my strange ways.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Latest interesting find.
I extracted and translated a section of interest.



> *Epizootology of infectious and invasive diseases of Burzyan wild/feral bees.*
> 
> Varroatosis was first registered in the reserve “Shulgan-Tash” in 1977-1979. Until 1986, the situation of the bee colonies with respect to the Varroa distructor within the range of Burzyan wild bees was considered relatively satisfactory.* Levels of mites in the bee trees (Table 5) in most cases (8 out of 10) was lower than in the standard frame hives maintained in the same areas and same environmental conditions. *
> 
> ...


The table 5 as mentioned on the text (with my comments).








Source - Umaguzhin, 2011, p. 20-21 (non-English):
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...lifera-l.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2tZ7klhNCpUqjCWdKvFE-H

So - IF the wild/feral bees are left alone to their devices - they can survive and self-manage the mites (after the initial brief shock period passes over - in this case in late 1970s).
This paper appears a totally a "black box" data collection effort without significant attempts to explain much of anything (in Varroa area to be clear).
But the details of "how" are less important to the practical bee keeping anyway, and best left to the academics to ponder about.

Just one more professionally researched and documented confirmation of the same.
I can only wonder how many more relevant non-English sources are available completely under the radar.
Anyone can read Korean or Chinese?


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> Latest interesting find.


GregV: Good stuff- thank you for sharing. I thought it particularly interesting the bit about how, _"...wild bees, apparently, increase the stability of the managed bees when they are relocated..."_ 

Certainly runs contrary to the mantra that untreated feral bees are a part of the continued varroa problem.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is a really good video about current bee-tree beekeeping.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cSZyyZ73Vg
Too bad - non-English and no subtitles (I enjoyed watching it).
7:00 - 9:45 - ground-level log hive apiary
9:45 - 24:00 - modern way to carve a bee-tree ("bort'") - chain saw is a big help.
24:00 - 33:00 - bee-tree maintenance - setting up an old, used tree-hive to attract a new swarm
33:00 - 34:00 - modern bee-tree operator with equipment
34:00 - 34:20 - fresh tracks of a brown bear trying to climb the bee tree (unsuccessfully)
34:20 - 48:00 - process of honey harvest (September, it looks like)
.... more stuff, but I need to sleep...


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Hmmm. We had some timber harvested last year. Of course they left the hollow ones lying on the ground. Wouldn't be too hard to chunk those into size and stand them up...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

AR1 said:


> Hmmm. We had some timber harvested last year. Of course they left the hollow ones lying on the ground. Wouldn't be too hard to chunk those into size and stand them up...


Sure.
Am still hoping a swarm will move into my one of my log traps this season, but getting late.
Idea is to let them stay there and not touch.
Just observe them and let them throw the swarms and do whatever they wanna do.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

AR1 said:


> Hmmm. We had some timber harvested last year. Of course they left the hollow ones lying on the ground. Wouldn't be too hard to chunk those into size and stand them up...


if you have the time and desire, seems you have a head start. Several good Utubes on the log hive construction.
Most of them seem to haul them up into a tree, to avoid some of the ground based pests. In A barn Hay loft would work IMO
Not sure the rules on having a non inspect-able log hive in your state. I guess clearly mark on the log "Birds only"..,,..


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> if you have the time and desire, seems you have a head start. Several good Utubes on the log hive construction.
> Most of them seem to haul them up into a tree, to avoid some of the ground based pests. In A barn Hay loft would work IMO
> Not sure the rules on having a non inspect-able log hive in your state. I guess clearly mark on the log "Birds only"..,,..


In my state movable frames are required.
Well, I have the movable frames in my log hives by design.
Up to me if I want to move them or not. 

Hauling up is not required if the hives are in a secure location.
In the video I posted - they talk about the swarms clearly preferring the hives up the trees (IF those are available).
So the bee-tree keepers continue doing it - because the bees like it so (but also the bears can not get to them, in the forest setting).
There is clear natural selection by the bears that is going on - anything within reach will get destroyed and eaten up - those bears are very good at selecting the bees.

PS: this weekend I will eval the start-ups and itching to just "waste" one of them for a log-trap trial and priming; 
just plug them into a log and whatever happens - happens;
but ideally I prefer some late swarm just moving in and so I spend no time on the "gymnastics";
really want to see what they will do and how they will do it.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> In my state movable frames are required.
> Well, I have the movable frames in my log hives by design.
> Up to me if I want to move them or not.
> 
> ...


GregV I see Sam Comfort uses sticks to be his "frame guides" what about chain saw slotting 2 opposite edges of the log then measure and place a couple sticks into a hive of yours, when you have 2 or 3 combs, on the sticks move them to the log with a shake or 2 of bees and let them go.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> GregV I see Sam Comfort uses sticks to be his "frame guides" what about chain saw slotting 2 opposite edges of the log then measure and place a couple sticks into a hive of yours, when you have 2 or 3 combs, on the sticks move them to the log with a shake or 2 of bees and let them go.


I already pre-built my logs to take in Lang frames (just by turning them 90 degrees).
Ready to go, really.

Time is the true limitation here.
Vs. playing with the logs (a pie in a sky, to be honest), I need to urgently build production size hives to re-hive the May splits (fingers crossed - they did not swarm on me yet out the temp hives - not a clue, been 4 weeks when I last checked them). These will include making some "short frames" to capture the late flow into those because I want this setup to be in trial too. May just forgo this frame trial due to time shortness.

Then I must go around and replace all the capped honey frames in the prod hives with the blanks (while the mid-summer flow is still going and the late-summer is pending - I want that goldenrod honey captured, if any luck).
Then, depending the crop volume I pull (fingers crossed for lots!) need to build an extractor so to vacate the combs for re-use.

Need to get the kids to some clean beach (before summer end).
All the while peaches and plums are about ready to harvest.

So you see where I am ....


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> .......
> Vs. playing with the logs (a pie in a sky, to be honest)......


Of course, all too often, I end up satisfying the itch (vs. doing what actually makes sense).
Nothing new.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> Of course, all too often, I end up satisfying the itch (vs. doing what actually makes sense).
> Nothing new.


ok a little off topic. why not make a wall with several "cavities" I get the log thing but big trees are hard to find in some places. I have several times seen bees in walls 15 x 6 inch "hollow. So make a wall maybe 14 inch ID and double coat it with boards on both sides, each stud cavity can be a separate hive. make doors if you want, for clean out out or harvest. Make it 8 feet high with a good warm insulated roof, could be 4 to 6 logs worth of bees Habitat, made in weekend. Better yet on the inside of a old barn wall, hay loft high, east end. Hmm another fun project.
GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> ok a little off topic. why not make a wall with several "cavities" I get the log thing but big trees are hard to find in some places. I have several times seen bees in walls 15 x 6 inch "hollow. So make a wall maybe 14 inch ID and double coat it with boards on both sides, each stud cavity can be a separate hive. make doors if you want, for clean out out or harvest. Make it 8 feet high with a good warm insulated roof, could be 4 to 6 logs worth of bees Habitat, made in weekend. Better yet on the inside of a old barn wall, hay loft high, east end. Hmm another fun project.
> GG



GG, I need "that barn".
Don't have one.
So I just do with what I have.

Shoot, your idea is very good - "wall of feral bees".
You could rake out some good raw honey that way and hardly spend the time managing them - a good deal.

Really, IF I had a barn and plenty of space around to keep people away, I'd do some crazy things.
One reason the old timers never thought of your idea - they themselves did not have access to cheap and plentiful *standard *lumber.
If they lived in the modern houses (like us) with hollow, studded walls - they would have made those "bee walls" in a split-second (*in their own houses too* - so to get the honey from the wall and directly onto the table - as needed).
Well, IF you live in a log cabin - kinda hard to envision the "bee wall" built-into a studded wall.
That never materialized at the time.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> GG, I need "that barn".
> Don't have one.
> So I just do with what I have.
> 
> ...


Hi Greg, I have a "deer blind to build, on a new property, 6 feet up into the air and maybe a 6 foot by 10 foot foot print. I'll work the bee wall into the plans, and try to get some Pics. it will only cost me 10-12 inches as there will be a 2x4 wall there any way, now a 2x14 been turning this over in my head for a while. I can snorkel out some air vents on top, drill holes in the floor and screen them. hmm 6 foot i may try for 4 compartments, End 2 hives come in from the different sides to reduce drift. be a fun project.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> Hi Greg, I have a "deer blind to build, on a new property, 6 feet up into the air and maybe a 6 foot by 10 foot foot print. I'll work the bee wall into the plans, and try to get some Pics. it will only cost me 10-12 inches as there will be a 2x4 wall there any way, now a 2x14 been turning this over in my head for a while. I can snorkel out some air vents on top, drill holes in the floor and screen them. hmm 6 foot i may try for 4 compartments, End 2 hives come in from the different sides to reduce drift. be a fun project.


Perfect!
Envious...


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> I'll work the bee wall into the plans, and try to get some Pics.


This does sound like a great project and I look forward to seeing this develop.

Russ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> Hi Greg, I have a "deer blind to build, on a new property, 6 feet up into the air and maybe a 6 foot by 10 foot foot print. I'll work the bee wall into the plans, and try to get some Pics. it will only cost me 10-12 inches as there will be a 2x4 wall there any way, now a 2x14 been turning this over in my head for a while. I can snorkel out some air vents on top, drill holes in the floor and screen them. hmm 6 foot i may try for 4 compartments, End 2 hives come in from the different sides to reduce drift. be a fun project.


GG: one idea - since we are talking of essentially "row of hives", it also makes sense to alternate entrance height (say: low-high-low-high) OR make it configurable so you close the low/open the high - this is to make the neighboring units somewhat distinct and also give them choices - some swarms will move into the low entrance/others will prefer the upper - a consideration.... Excited about your idea already.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> GG: one idea - since we are talking of essentially "row of hives", it also makes sense to alternate entrance height (say: low-high-low-high) OR make it configurable so you close the low/open the high - this is to make the neighboring units somewhat distinct and also give them choices - some swarms will move into the low entrance/others will prefer the upper - a consideration.... Excited about your idea already.


yes configurable, that needs some thought. the end ones can be around the corner, so that angle of entrance would help, also I can paint something different on the entrance area. Maybe a piece or tin in between entrances, a foot /12inches would help a lot. what about making them all interconnected and just do not worry about drift?  4 eggs in 1 basket. or a combo 2 singles and a double. want to make it easy and winterable. the mice worry me, big issue here , they are everywhere.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> yes configurable, .......... the mice worry me, big issue here , they are everywhere.


Entrances around the corner - a good idea.

NO interconnections. NOOOO! 
Unless you are a priest - then maybe.

Mice - I never worry of the mice and don't get the the problem - just staple 1/2 or 3/8 screen EVERYWHERE you have even a little doubt.
I never have mice problem with 1/2 screens in all entrances and all ventilation holes and in few weak spots, for a good measure.
Considering most all of my hives are in out-yards (woods, bush and tall grass) - varmints are a plenty - I don't get people complaining of the mice.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> Entrances around the corner - a good idea.
> 
> NO interconnections. NOOOO!
> Unless you are a priest - then maybe.


so do you have experience with connected complexes? They are wild if you like the edge. They go to the dark side somewhat easy. Turn into to robber towers. they easily figure out they are bigger and go about robbing out all the little hives. A priest is actually a good idea, "Bless this complex and take away its evil ways"


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> so do you have experience with connected complexes? ....


No, I don't.
I only read documented cases where bees lived in the inter-connected tree cavities.
It was *not* documented how many actual queens were present (I suppose that would be near impossible to know).

But, heck, you can make those interconnections configurable and give it a go just as well (beauty of the bee-wall).
A simple hole through the stud - all you need (nothing to over-engineer there).
Simple is always good.

Plug it permanently with steel wool plug/wooden plug - very simple - bees will not get through.
Plug it temporarily with a rag/paper towel - bees will chew through and unite.
Unplug the stud hole into the empty cavity if the neighboring volume is getting overflown - extra bees will hang out in the empty volume and maybe even build into it.
If the connection holes are done at the bottom of the each cavity (the bees will be starting at the top) - you can just keep those inter-connections opened at all times and don't worry - colonies may unite (OR not) as they grow down and reach those connections holes.

If going crazy, then just go nuts.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

The owner of a youtube channel, that I keep track of, decided - time to harvest one of his log hives (been two years and the honey must be ripe).
Fun to watch the process.
May just jump to ~7:00 to skip the talks (non-English anyway).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvWGhF58LWU&t=1094s


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> Fun to watch the process.


This is interesting- how much surplus was he able to take off?

It looks like he is shaking the bees off into maybe a poly brood box?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> This is interesting- how much surplus was he able to take off?
> 
> It looks like he is shaking the bees off into maybe a poly brood box?


He estimated 20 kilos (~50 pounds).
The bees were not disturbed since the spring 2018.
He wanted for the honey to accumulate and cure - and it did (cure) - notice that the honey is very thick and dark liquid (no signs of crystallization).
Of course, it is some mix of 2018 and 2019 honeys; still lots of it is 2018.

Old and well cured honey is in low supply and high demand (he indicated the harvest log honey is NOT for sale - only family and close friends get a piece).
It is just eaten in chunks - directly as-is - honey and bee bread all at once.

I actually get some of these myself (though not quite 2-year old stuff) - when I go around and selectively harvest the dead-outs.
Though I do mostly C&S on my harvest; we also just eat it as-is too (in the process of C&S).
I will second that the generic spinned summer honey is just not it.
Nope.
The kids will confirm the same.

He shook the bees off into a poly-hive with already prepared frames for wintering.
The plan is to dump them back into the freshly robbed-out log hive the next spring and start a new 2-year cycle.
Looks like he is running 3 logs hives (can see on the video too).
He has several vids all centered on his log-hive projects.
Cool stuff.

Hehehe... 
I do have the logs hives on my own - 4 units (one in testing as we speak).
I think the next spring I will just pop them up in and go for it too - the 2-year old honey.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> Cool stuff.
> 
> ...
> 
> I think the next spring I will just pop them up in and go for it too - the 2-year old honey.


This is an interesting approach, GregV. I imagine you might be able to fetch a premium price for honey harvested from a log hive- it certainly makes for a good story to tell with the product.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> ....
> I think the next spring I will just pop them up in and go for it too - the 2-year old honey.



Ah, OK, it maybe no need to wait 2 years for the honey harvest either.
The current year is fine, as I have been doing.
Good enough.

The longer you wait, the higher HMF concentrations are (even in raw honey if the conditions are warm enough; which they are in summer time).
But once harvested, it can be frozen indefinitely (freezer is a better storage place vs. the toasty bee hive).







From: https://www.tentamus.com/hmf-honey-qsi-america/?cn-reloaded=1


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Greg:

Are you familiar with this guy?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...mans-mission-to-save-honey-bees-idUSKBN1X31CE


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Not familiar, Russ.
A good read.
Will not get into the many details, except his honey harvest - "only take from the absconds and the dead - leave the rest alone".

On this same note, this year I spent the time and effort extracting the honey in conventional way.
Goota say - this spinned summer honey is "meh".
It is a pedestrian, generic, bland honey.
Donno - what is the fuss.
I don't care for it.
Everyone has it.
Why bother with it.








Right here, on my table they are side by side.
The dark honey with some bee bread mixed in from the C&S - the last season harvest, half-eaten - the real deal.
The lighter honey - pedestrian honey everyone here sells (even the grocery stores).
Why spend the time and effort to get what everyone already sells. 
Cheaply too.
I am done with that silly approach.
The pressed honey from the brood nest is my favorite and will be.
So - I better stick to that business model.

I better save the last of my C&S batch so I can do some blind tasting trials with it.
No more of the real honey left until something comes along.

With that, lots and lots of hives (smaller hives is fine) - let them load up with the stores then let some of them self-kill - then harvest from the dead and the absconds - actually is a fine operating mode as for me. 
Double-bang, actually (self-weeding out the poor bee and trivial harvest from the empty hives). 
Stupid simple.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> Greg:
> 
> Are you familiar with this guy?
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...mans-mission-to-save-honey-bees-idUSKBN1X31CE


Just was gonna say, some of the passages here sound old and annoying to me (getting tired to hear these).
Such as:


> Honey bees are critical to the planet’s ecosystem


The *healthy and diverse insect population* is critical to the planet's ecosystem. 
NOT the honey bees.
The honey bee cultivation is not any different from any other mono-crop cultivation.
Saving the mono-crop of the "dying honey bees" is non-sense.
Really tired to read this media propaganda (hate to say this - but it is "fake news").

And so on.....(no smoke; no protection; etc). 
Whatever. (go and do my bees without smoke and protection - and I will watch from a distance; hehehe....)

At this rate, the guy better be creating some general insect preserves then - much more admirable project, actually, I feel.
So yes - I am torn.
Suppose if the tiresome "save-the-bees" propaganda is removed from the context - it is an OK project; an interesting project on honey bee introduction into the CA native ecosystems - for what it is.

Where the honey bees must be preserved - the original habitats in the Old World.
Once the original, old populations are lost - they will not come back.
Lots of people have been doing exactly that already.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> The *healthy and diverse insect population* is critical to the planet's ecosystem.


Good point, GregV. It is interesting to note here in my little corner of God's green earth the variety of native pollinators, who tend to both; work things the EHB's will not, and; work when the EHB's will not. So even in this very narrow view one can see how incredibly important it is to have a healthy and diverse insect population.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

MSL mentioned this movie someplace - "The Land of Honey", if I recall the title.

Well, the entire video is now on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4uwxoYne8k


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

darn you, I had things that needed to get done this evening!
now I have to watch it before the copywrite volition is reported to YouTube
"HoneyLand" is the US title https://honeyland.earth/


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> darn you, I had things that needed to get done this evening!
> now I have to watch it before the copywrite volition is reported to YouTube
> "HoneyLand" is the US title https://honeyland.earth/


LOL!
Indeed, drop your things and watch now!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> MSL mentioned this movie someplace - "The Land of Honey", if I recall the title.
> 
> Well, the entire video is now on youtube:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4uwxoYne8k


Thanks, GregV. I've watched the first 5 minutes here at work and am already hooked... looking forward to watching it at home.

Russ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> Thanks, GregV. I've watched the first 5 minutes here at work and am already hooked... looking forward to watching it at home.
> 
> Russ


The audio is in Russian - works for me.

I quickly scanned, mainly checking the English sub-titles - they are good enough.
Did not watch yet the entire tape.

The auto-translate technology is really a BIG DEAL. 
Should only get better.
I imagine myself watching some Chinese video - the auto-subtitles would be huge (as opposed to nothing).
And here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=养蜂业

Good times!
Tons of materials!

Now days you can search for thematic videos in ANY language and then auto-translate to get enough utility from most any content.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> Now days you can search for thematic videos in ANY language and then auto-translate to get enough utility from most any content.


That is amazing- I tried the auto-translate function and it was almost instant and certainly adequate to get a good sense of what is going on.

We indeed live in amazing times.

Thanks again for posting the video.

Russ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Lately I have been reviewing old literature (or references to it) regarding the log hive keeping methods of the 19th century (Russia/Ukraine).
Specifically, studying the hive-culling system and its effects.

Here is a good overview:


> They lit up not only strong families, but also the weakest, the weakest, not prepared for the winter and unable to survive it.
> Poor families gave 2 kilograms of honey, and the best - 12-16 kilograms. According to fairly thorough calculations by N. M. Vitvitsky, about 10 million bee families were killed annually in Russia.
> With the swarm-culling system, the only way to support the apiary is swarms. Usually, as many families as the number of new ones were taken out, that is, extra families were destroyed.
> 
> ...


From Shabarshov, 1990:
http://paseka.su/books/item/f00/s00/z0000049/st005.shtml


Why bother?
Because the dynamics of that time period also included very high hive losses - precisely because of the "swarm-culling" system.
*The humans acted in a role of a pest.*
In fact 1)a very deadly pest and also 2)a very selective pest - killing the better performing colonies - because that's where the honey was.

Probably, the weaker colonies were also culled, as not worthy of keeping.
But a quote below somewhat contradicts this idea.

Roughly 10M colonies were culled in Russia annually for the purposes of honey harvesting (per Vitvitsky - GV: I assume this is for the 19th century when Vitvitsky lived).
I estimate at about *50%* of the overall population was being culled annually (which was, of course, compensated for by the annual expansion at about the same level).

This phenomenon is interesting and worth studying because despite the mass slaughter ongoing for roughly 200-300 years, the bees did not perish - obviously.
Also, during this era, the concentrated bee yards become common with all the associated issues.
Contagious infection cases, such as foul broods, became common - and still the bees did not perish.

Will post few artifacts regarding this.

Here is the first - "Self-studying manual for beekeeping", Bootkevich, 1926, 4th edition.
I translate an excerpt from the book.










> ...
> The swarming is over. There are a lot of young colonies hived, on the top of each other if not more.
> The main flow is soon to end, and the beekeeper is now waiting for the honey buyers.
> When a long awaited guest shows up; the host takes him to the yard and shows him the hives set aside for culling.
> ...


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Nice find !



> This phenomenon is interesting and worth studying because despite the mass slaughter ongoing for roughly 200-300 years, the bees did not perish - obviously.
> Also, during this era, the concentrated bee yards become common with all the associated issues.
> Contagious infection cases, such as foul broods, became common - and still the bees did not perish.


and this is the case with any domestic live stock 
I think the killing of "the best" is a missguided view
merely they killed the ripe and the ones that would take up inputs to over winter...
I think of hogs as they were managed very similar
"By feeding on the crop of oak acorns or, in some areas beechnuts, the young pigs would be ready for slaughter in December. Because pigs quickly loose weight if food sources are depleted, owners would not want to keep them over the lean winter months unless they were breeding stock or still too small to be worth killing that year."
Jørgensen 2013 Pigs and Pollards: Medieval Insights for UK Wood
Pasture Restoration 
Sustainability 2013, 5, 387-399; doi:10.3390/su5020387

your auther makes the point I have made several times
swarm beekeeping selects for a line that can swarm 2x and build up enuf to over winter (at least was the case in Europe with late flows)
as he says 
". The apiary got rid of families of obviously bad heredity, which could worsen the genetic basis of other families. In winter, they left "beehives of good and medium seed bees." The methods of breeding available to the bee were deliberately applied."

but as he says "Strong honey-making families, which were lit, managed to release several swarms per season. With the first swarms left the old queen"
he uses this rational about keeping the old queen... but as practiced swarm beekeeping was often manged to cause the swarms to swarm with the volume just a little less then a 5F deep nuc 



> 1757 : One old hive: the first swarm 7 June, the second swarm 20 June; swarm out of the first swarm 8 July, second swarm from the first 22 July.


Owen Thomas, a Denbighshire beekeeper and skep maker in the eighteenth century
LINNARD and CRANE 1989 https://www.evacranetrust.org/uploads/document/9cb7fced9e5db46beb810b8cc3f9f1797e2c5995.pdf

One overwintered Skep became 5! this artical is a gold mine for looking in to what keeping of the era was like as Tomas kept good records and we see what his increase was like, honey/ wax production etc over a 20 or so year time span depending on the record type !!!
"In a good season, a prime swarm may develop strongly enough to send out a prime swarm of its own before the summer is over, and possibly even afterswarms as well"

He averaged 13 pounds of honey per overwintered hive and 1.13 pounds of wax with wax selling at 7x+ the price of honey, the the wax could make up a large posrtion of the income 

"Owen Thomas sold his beeswax at the local markets, the price ranging from 14 to 18 pence per pound. In 1772 at Chester he got his best price (18 pence), 'thanks be to God' (i Dduw y bo'r diolch). The notebooks contain no details of the prices he received for his honey. In 1787, honey sold for 2d. a pound in Hampshire and Essex"

I think your interpretation below may be incorect and is based on modern preferences


> The owner himself highly values the young swarms due to the new combs in them also (GV: i.e. - not interested to cull them).


I would suggest they may have been very interested in culling them for the wax. The swam beekeeper didn't have the modern fascination with drawn comb as it was highly valuable, harvested hives were scraped clean, ready for a swarm to do what it does best, draw wax. More swarms, more wax.. and a little more honey... That was the point of the swarm beekeeping system and likely why it lasted so long in to the Lang era.. that and high priced cut comb of thick flows (read very hard to extract) like heather

moveing on to more E Crane, Early English beekeeping: the evidence from local
records up to the end of the Norman period https://www.evacranetrust.org/uploads/document/400fe90f27902b22bd24552c495914998fc978c5.pdf



> Sometimes the parent colony produced one or more further swarms, and the first swarm might itself later produce a swarm. At the end of summer the beekeeper killed the bees in some hives to harvest the honey and wax in them. He overwintered others as 'stock' hives (like stock cattle); he left all their honey and might give them extra honey combs as well. In late summer he could thus have two or three times as many occupied hives as during the winter and early spring


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> Nice find !
> 
> I think the killing of "the best" is a missguided view
> merely *they killed the ripe *and the ones that would take up inputs to over winter...
> ...


All good points, MSL.

But down my alley - I don't intentionally kill the bees - thanks to more modern equipment, no need for the killing.
I prefer to split, not push the swarms out (just so to catch them back if lucky) - another obvious difference.

Otherwise, the "swarm-culling" method is a great method (adjusted for the modern situation).
Lots of little hives plus annual contraction/expansion - all it is to it.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Another fun vid - a bee-wall in Turkey.
Probably no chems.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFC4TJAHulw


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Probably no chems.


pehaps.. but given the hundreds of langs showed lined up at the end I wonder :kn:
IIRR walnut leafs in the smoker was a thing in turkey
We are talking about a country 8% the size of the US with 6.3 million migratory hives.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> Another fun vid - a bee-wall in Turkey.
> Probably no chems.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFC4TJAHulw


Interesting Vid greg, A person could make a double high Long Lang, or a deep frame hive like yours and have a "back door" put in 6-8 frames up front with the entrance, and leave the back empty. perhaps a 20 frame in length, In the fall cut out a comb or 2 or 3. can Still do splits by taking out a couple comb from the front and placing in empties. Makes me want to experiment..... you need to quit teasing me with these ideas..
GG


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> Another fun vid - a bee-wall in Turkey.
> Probably no chems.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFC4TJAHulw


GregV:

Awesome video. While watching it, I was reminded of Brother Adam's book, 'In Search of the Best Strain of Bees' where he describes the use of cylindrical hives in great detail when outlining his visit to Egypt. In this section he notes that bees kept in this arrangement display much better than average orientation abilities and also outlines the various metal tools (as shown in the video) for extracting the honey.

While the video does not appear to outline the specific area in Turkey where it is filmed, Brother Adam utilized an Anatolian strain from Turkey extensively in improving his Buckfast strain. He notes, _"... the area north and north-east of Ankara appears to harbour the most valuable strains of the Anatolian bee, both form the economic and cross-breeding point of view."_ (p. 121).


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> ...you need to quit teasing me with these ideas..
> GG


I for one would be interested in hearing how your experiment turned out, Gray Goose.

Here's to a Happy and Prosperous New Year for you and your family.

Russ


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Seems beekeepers 3,000 years ago agreed with brother Adam and imported Anatolian 
"The discovery of Anatolian bees at Tel Rehov
raises the question whether it is plausible that bee
swarms have been imported to the Beth-Shean Valley
directly or indirectly from one of the Neo-Hittite states"

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/27ae/4ad924f9d053bf3cb3e1b436be3d80aecead.pdf


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

msl said:


> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/27ae/4ad924f9d053bf3cb3e1b436be3d80aecead.pdf


Absolutely fascinating read, thanks!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Absolutely fascinating read, thanks!


I agree, MSL. Thank you for posting this research. It is amazing to consider their finding 3,000 year old material that was suitable for biometric analysis. Brings new meaning to 'Primative Beekeeping'.

Thanks again for sharing the excellent paper. I sincerely hope you and your family have a Healthy and Prosperous 2020.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

From my recent readings of Julian Lubieniecki, 1859....

Why relevant?
Because the so-called primitive techniques of swarm-culling management (I'd call it "the numbers game") has a real application in the current environment. 
No need to kill the bees (which is disagreeable), but consolidating the units or letting the bees to self-select should end in similar results - where the excess resources can be released and harvested. 
As has been demonstrated, a colony of most any size (when configured properly) will generate sufficient harvest-able crop, proportionally to the size (see the 6-frame hive topic).
This is my opinion, of course.

Now to the book excerpts.
(Little bit about Julian Lubieniecki - a significant beekeeper of his time from the area which is now Western Ukraine;
kept his bees in Dziersion hives and some other hives also, but I did not quite nail more details, there were many designs used at the time, all way down to the skeps and logs
his book "A complete practical Guide for Beekeepers" only was published in Polish in 1859 and subsequently republished in Russian in 1867 and 1976)



> Julian Lubieniecki
> A complete practical Guide for Beekeepers
> 1859
> (GregV's free-hand translation).
> ...


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

yes, and maybe more importantly, Late flows 
We see the commercial skep keeper videos form the late 1970s, likely still around do to the heather's late bloom 



> As has been demonstrated, a colony of most any size (when configured properly) will generate sufficient harvest-able crop, proportionally to the size (see the 6-frame hive topic).


disagree, its not proportional plenty of study's on it, Farrar 1937 come to mind 


> The standardized production factors per unit of bees may be interpreted to mean that one colony with 60,000 bees will probably produce 1.54
> times as much honey as four colonies each with 15,000 bees;
> one colony with 45,000 bees will probably produce 1.48 times as much honey as three colonies each with 15,000 bees;
> one colony with 30,000 bees will probably produce 1.36 times as much honey as two colonies each with 15,000 bees


so it takes 6 hives with 15,000 bees each to = a single hive of 60,000

not trying to discount local effects like a stock that can't fully use a larger hives do to flow or genetics etc, but nectar collection goes hand in hand with pop size. 

The answer would then seem to be a 6 frame dadant has enuf space that brood rearing ins't restricted. 
at a spit ball 50,100 cells and 21 days layed till emerged the queen would have 2385 open cells a day to lay in... lose 25-30% of that to nectar and pollen storage and it feels like your in the right ball park


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

dup


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> not trying to discount local effects like a stock that can't fully use a larger hives do to flow or genetics etc, but nectar collection goes hand in hand with pop size.


MSL, this is true for the identical and large equipment configurations.
Of course, granted the same equipment, 30K bees have higher house maintenance overhead over 60K bees - in large footprint configurations.

BUT, IF you proportionally reduce the population requirement for the brood rearing (the 6-framers run on *SIX *frames of brood through the entire summer) - suddenly you have lots of idle bees as the brood rearing minimized.
Like I said, think of TWO 6-framers (2 queens) sitting on a footprints of one 12-framer (1 queen).
Idle population the 6-framers will pump out will be higher - guarantied - that is your forage force boost on the same footprint.

So, it is not just about absolute #s (a single parameter).
There is the second parameter too - the proportional overhead cost in labor needed for the housekeeping.
This is how the "bunch of little hives" can actually produce something worthwhile.

PS: i did study the 6-frame methods pretty well as were presented on the video series;
there is *one-time* expansion up to 10 brood frames; 
after that the hive is coasting on 6 brood frames only - specifically to boost nectar foraging productivity/reduce overhead - the brood rearing costs are really low 
(yes - requires QX).


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> This is how the "bunch of little hives" can actually produce something worthwhile.


while I am sure the spring explanation is timed to create the largest field work force and least brood peak flow, these are well populated hives. I don't see little hives, as you say


GregV said:


> On average he is running one set of 6 Dadant frames (the excluded brood nest) and 7 honey supers.
> .


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> while I am sure the spring explanation is timed to create the largest field work force and least brood peak flow, these are well populated hives. I don't see little hives, as you say


Well, for many people running 6 brood frames means - a little hive. 
A very little hive.
Say, for many on this very forum this is very little.

Little hive == little brood production, if you think about it.
Little hive == little box increments also.
Little hive <> number of boxes (little boxes at that).

People here are running 10-12 frame equipment and have the open nests - imagine the amount of brood to be incubated - huge overheads.
Of course the populations need to be huge to produce anything worthwhile (on top of the household work).

Now, I can actually understand people running one-box brood chambers.
Makes total sense to me - for honey production.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Well, for many people running 6 brood frames means - a little hive.





> Now, I can actually understand people running one-box brood chambers.


actually I think your missing it 
"However, returning to Nolan and Harris’s actual measurements, strong colonies appear to typically top out at about 16,000 cells of sealed brood at any one time, which works out (accounting for eggs and open brood) to about 4¼ solid frames of brood. I know—I see better colonies than this each year, but I’m not talking about the exceptions."
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/understanding-colony-buildup-and-decline-part-4/
6 Dadants is like 7.5 lang deeps well in excess of the queens needs
single brood chamber management is all about the bees (and the keeper) putting the resorcse (and some times brood)above the excluder so the queen has enuff space to lay in a compact space. but its not about small populations


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

msl said:


> actually I think your missing it
> "However, returning to Nolan and Harris’s actual measurements, strong colonies appear to typically top out at about 16,000 cells of sealed brood at any one time, which works out (accounting for eggs and open brood) to about 4¼ solid frames of brood. I know—I see better colonies than this each year, but I’m not talking about the exceptions."
> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/understanding-colony-buildup-and-decline-part-4/
> 6 Dadants is like 7.5 lang deeps well in excess of the queens needs
> single brood chamber management is all about the bees (and the keeper) putting the resorcse (and some times brood)above the excluder so the queen has enuff space to lay in a compact space. but its not about small populations


so we are talking about the time during the flow. I use some 8 frame lang Wooden ware. there is no way they winter on 1 8 frame box. I prefer 3, top one 100% full of honey , the bottom one has maybe 30% pollen, they somewhat start winter in the middle or lower middle, and the "Hope" is they do not run out of honey prior to spring when the local bloom starts. Close inspection in the spring shows that not 100% of the cells are open in the bottom box so When you talk frames of open space, for me I need 16 frames in the hive to have 8 frames of open cells worth of laying space. If you want to discuss "max" production then a dead hive in the spring has little to contribute. Hopefully the folks reading this understand the Open cells vrs total cells. For Me IMO 1 box, keeping is not optimal. Maybe you can pull it off in Denver but I cannot. Any 1 box 8 or 10 frame I have tried to winter has like a less than 50% chance of making the winter. Locality has a vector in the equation as well. My best for the "Apiary" is 3 deeps. Rarely need to feed, normally has overhead stores. Often can make 6-8 frame splits in the spring, which can make a crop and be increase. And best of all + 80% over winter rate. So Maybe I am in the weeds with management somewhere, but I trend toward what works. I like the stores left over in the spring, sure I could push it a bit and do fairly well with 2 deeps and 50% more queens, but once in a while we get a early fall and crappy spring and I would need to feed or loose hives.
Since I began thinking about winter prep in June, I have had better outcomes. For me tearing off the top honey box and extracting and then feeding would be a little more work in the fall and a lot more time to get them feed up. Also in the spring when they move up honey to make room for the brood nest, I am convinced some "syrup" ends up in supers.
Could I make 1 box brood chamber work, probably, do I want to , Not so much.
GG


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I too enjoyed reading about the apiary found in northern Israel.

There are advantages and disadvantages to having a huge brood chamber like the square Dadant. IMO, it simplifies management significantly as compared with a double brood chamber Langstroth hive.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Maybe you can pull it off in Denver but I cannot. Any 1 box 8 or 10 frame I have tried to winter has like a less than 50% chance of making the winter. Locality has a vector in the equation as well


single 10f, 5f, 4x4, and plamers have shown good survival in your area http://www.rrbeekeepers.com/Meghan/Sustainable-Fall-Nucs.pdf
management and stock likely makes the difference.. I am going to go out on a limb and say there is a good reason people much more north of you keep in singles 

obulisy there IS a reason why dubble/triple stack are the "standard", my guess is simplicity, bigger margin of error (safety net), and a stock that over winters in a large cluster 
Single box management would seem to be an advanced skill for honey production. As I under stand it from friends keeping up in the mountains (8300' zone 4) they have a very short bloom season (last frost June 23, 1st frost sept 3) and with out single management they don't get a crop. The more compact nest alows for better spring build up (heat related) and to push the max in to the supers to be harvested, when the nest retracts they feed, this keeps fall flows(with there indejustabuls) out of the brood nest limiting the need for cleansing flights and improving overwintering. 



> Also in the spring when they move up honey to make room for the brood nest, I am convinced some "syrup" ends up in supers.


absulty, I know people who plug up dubble deeps early spring feeding and then super and "magically" make huge crops. This is another argument used for single brood chambers

I don't care who does what, I just like to know the how/why something works or doesn't compare and contrast the advantages and disadvantages so I can make an informed choice


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

msl said:


> single 10f, 5f, 4x4, and plamers have shown good survival in your area http://www.rrbeekeepers.com/Meghan/Sustainable-Fall-Nucs.pdf
> management and stock likely makes the difference.. I am going to go out on a limb and say there is a good reason people much more north of you keep in singles
> 
> obulisy there IS a reason why dubble/triple stack are the "standard", my guess is simplicity, bigger margin of error (safety net), and a stock that over winters in a large cluster
> ...


Exactly, I am in the same boat. How, why does it work and what can I use from it. When I started "77" we did not feed. I was unaware it was done, so in My history only in the last 10 or so years, Have I warmed up to the idea of feeding. My Apiary is more in line with St Cloud MN. I am 4 or so hours drive north of Munith. I am trying to overwinter NUCs this year. will see how that goes. I am not necessarily trying to maximize production per footprint. My goals are to try to overwinter my bees and have enough in the spring to split back to some target and what ever honey I get is fine with me. Luckly when the dandelions bloom the flow starts and ends with Goldenrod, so I have a fairly long flow. I have a day job and Kids, so I do not box swap in the spring, or have the time to manage too intensively. A few swarms go off each year and I am also fine with that as a means to a DCA in my area. Again for me who admittedly may be a bit set in my ways , Single box management is not for me. My Grandpa was a 3 deep guy in the 50s and most of what I do is what he did. I do like to read ,so I have been reading up on what I can find, it does not move me off my base much however. It does offer different options some of which I have tried. Hope I am not dating my self too much but the first time, Bears wiped me out I ordered 3 packages from Sears Catalogue "Starlight" was the name as I recall. Maybe 30-40 bucks each,, was was back at it behind an ele. fence.
GG


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> ... I ordered 3 packages from Sears Catalogue "Starlight" was the name as I recall.


Gray Goose:

I recently posted this in the 'Welcome' forum, but if you haven't read it, it gives a good outline of the 'Starline' and 'Midnite' bees, courtesy of Randy Oliver:


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

I am trying to overwinter two small colonies in 5 frame deeps. We will see how it goes. So far seems Okay but it has been a very mild winter so far. They came out of Fall with almost no stored honey due to very poor Fall weather, endless rain and cold, so they have sugar blocks on top and a thick layer of insulation on top of that. They were alive and looked fine a week ago.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Litsinger said:


> Gray Goose:
> 
> I recently posted this in the 'Welcome' forum, but if you haven't read it, it gives a good outline of the 'Starline' and 'Midnite' bees, courtesy of Randy Oliver:


Meant to thank you over there. Also ask if you have a direct link? Could not find it at Randy's site nor with a web search. Hoping the original is a bit easier to read.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> Meant to thank you over there. Also ask if you have a direct link? Could not find it at Randy's site nor with a web search. Hoping the original is a bit easier to read.


Glad to help, William. I wish I had a better version of the article, but the photos that I posted came directly from Randy himself. He does not actually have them posted on his website, but references the 'Story of Success' in the attached article:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/choosing-your-troops-breeding-mite-fighting-bees/


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> Gray Goose:
> 
> I recently posted this in the 'Welcome' forum, but if you haven't read it, it gives a good outline of the 'Starline' and 'Midnite' bees, courtesy of Randy Oliver:
> 
> ...


Russ, I stand corrected Starline was the variety. I am surprised I had the first 6 characters correct, from 40 some years ago.
Ahhh the good ole days.....

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

AR1 said:


> I am trying to overwinter two small colonies in 5 frame deeps. We will see how it goes. So far seems Okay but it has been a very mild winter so far. They came out of Fall with almost no stored honey due to very poor Fall weather, endless rain and cold, so they have sugar blocks on top and a thick layer of insulation on top of that. They were alive and looked fine a week ago.


AR1 be great to hear how these 2 do, with food and insulation they should make it, we are well into winter so they have a good chance. Are these in NUC boxes or full boxes? Have you been able to over winter 5 frame hives in the past winters?
GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> actually I think your missing it
> ........... but its not about small populations


Let us not forget - I am not in honey making/selling business.
For me 4-5 boxes (equivalent of up to 30 Lang medium frames) is enough.
I need redundancy/sustainability/free bees, not tons of honey to sell.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> single 10f, 5f, 4x4, and plamers have shown good survival in your area http://www.rrbeekeepers.com/Meghan/Sustainable-Fall-Nucs.pdf
> management and stock likely makes the difference.. I am going to go out on a limb and say *there is a good reason people much more north of you keep in singles *


So they can keep them INSIDE in winter.
Unlike GG or myself.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

GregV said:


> Let us not forget - I am not in honey making/selling business.
> For me 4-5 boxes (equivalent of up to 30 Lang medium frames) is enough.
> I need redundancy/sustainability/free bees, not tons of honey to sell.


Unless you are in the bee killing business, 

you should understand that lots of honey means that the bees are healthy and very well.

So a lot of honey IS your goal. They are honey bees, not just bees. Hindering them from making honey, means, you make unhappy bees that barely survive instead of living a good life.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

> This is how the "bunch of little hives" can actually produce something worthwhile.





msl said:


> while I am sure the spring explanation is timed to create the largest field work force and least brood peak flow, these are well populated hives. I don't see little hives, as you say





> On average he is running one set of 6 Dadant frames (the excluded brood nest) and 7 honey supers.


So again, you are forgetting my context - NOT in honey selling business I am.
I don't need to go 7-8 high; the opposite, I need more smaller units and a stack of 3-4-5 is sufficient.
Taking just 5-6 frames off a unit times 10 units - more than enough for a household needs.

The subject of the "6-frame case study" is a true honey selling commercial beek.
He MUST produce honey so to pay his bills and support his family - and so one can not keep splitting his hives non-stop.
Of course he will go 7-8 boxes high (which only amounts to equivalent of about 50 Lang medium frames - these are small volumes honey producing units).

OK, why not compare that to the well respected Mike Palmer's honey hives - talking about up to 100 Lang medium frames per a unit - now that is BIG.
Here is the good visual of the true big honey hives - based on 10-frames: https://www.frenchhillapiaries.com/summer


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Unless you are in the bee killing business,
> 
> you should understand that lots of honey means that the bees are healthy and very well.
> 
> So a lot of honey IS your goal. They are honey bees, not just bees. Hindering them from making honey, means, you make unhappy bees that barely survive instead of living a good life.


Sufficient honey stores <> lots of surplus honey.
AM tired of saying am - NOT selling honey.

"Bee killing" - heard that before.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> AR1 be great to hear how these 2 do, with food and insulation they should make it, we are well into winter so they have a good chance. Are these in NUC boxes or full boxes? Have you been able to over winter 5 frame hives in the past winters?
> GG


5-frame nucs. 

My only prior experience with this is a 6-frame trap that froze out in -20 degree temps. That was a poor example though because those poor bees were very badly infected with mites, and had wax moths and beetles that Fall. I am surprised they survived until January. They left a large amount of honey behind.

The current nucs are healthy. They are in one nuc each, and on top is a second nuc stuffed with fiberglass insulation batts. I was worried they might get caught in the fiberglass but so far not a problem. I have them pushed up against the wall of my house and they are well-protected from wind.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

GregV said:


> AM tired of saying am - NOT selling honey.


I am not stupid, Greg. And you don't play stupid, please. You are keeping *honey* bees. And thriving honeybees do make honey. There is no surplus thinking in honeybees. They do a lot of honey. Not only for one winter. For future colonies as well!

In a book from Nicol Jacobi, dating back to the year 1563, the authors describes beekeeping in log hives. The author states that a log hive wasn't harvest until five years. So they waited five years until the colony (and follow up colonies, since the original colony swarmed) was truly established, before they did the first harvest any honey.

You can look at the book at:
https://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/id/PPN595247474

Although it is written in German language.

Point is, honeybees forage for honey, as much as possible. If a colony isn't able to collect much honey, it suffers. Withering and suffering is NOT a natural state for a living being.

I keep bees in fixed comb primitive hives for 15 years now. So I probably know a thing or two about it. My suggestions to you are meant friendly, to save you and your bees unnecessary trouble.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

It is probably good to avoid extremes.

Bee colonies of a variety of sizes appear to survive well enough, and to produce surplus honey.

There is considerable evidence that confining bees in smaller hives promotes survival in the world of Varroa.

We all do our share of bee killing. It is unavoidable, especially if a person is trying to find out what works where they live, at their scale, and to meet their objectives.

Some things don't work. That usually means boxes full of moldy dead bees. I have seen more than I would like to.

It is no more or less noble to have huge hives which produce 300 pounds of surplus than to have small hives which don't even put up enough for themselves. 

Most of us don't make a living from our beekeeping enterprise. If we did, we would either do it differently or go bankrupt.

I am happy if most of my bees are alive in the spring, and I get enough honey for Christmas gifts for my children and some for my own consumption. It is a bonus if I have some to sell, as it helps offset the cost of keeping bees. I may someday make a profit, but realistically, it is not all that likely.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Let us not forget - I am not in honey making/selling business.


my comments had nothing to do with you or your management, just pointing out your stament that honey yields were not proportionally to the size, and that your 6 frame example was of big hives, not small ones Yes 2 small nucs can make a small crop, but with a shared super, or one queen pinched and combined they will make a significant bigger one. 
I have said before that you would likely do well with a lot of nucs out fitted with swarm keepers 



> So they can keep them INSIDE in winter.


nope 
From the Canadian honey Counsel http://www.honeycouncil.ca/images2/...Pub_22920_-_FINAL_-_low-res_web_-_English.pdf 
"To prepare colonies for outdoor over-wintering, it is recommended that beekeepers ensure that
colonies are healthy and populous and have adequate food stores. Colonies should ideally have
a large cluster, an abundance of young bees and a young, fertile queen. Colonies should be fed
with 70% (2:1) sugar syrup and should weigh 80-90 lb (36-40 kg) if single brood chambers are
used and 120 lb (54 kg) if double brood chambers are used."



> Unless you are in the bee killing business,


he is.. Greg runs sort of a modern day skep program, but instead of the beekeeper picking witch to cull and harvest he has nature do it. He makes full use of hive products... drone brood smoothys :lpf:, beebread and what not and wants chemical free hive products. Cant say I agree with it, but he is very truth full about his losses and a wealth of information about how other areas keep bees. So I find it better to debate/suggest how he can reach his goles more efficiently


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

OK, I am getting a bit tired of this...
Will do what I wanna do and it be it.
Let us move on and keep this about the primitive beekeeping (which deserves a second look IMO just about now).

Here, have some fun - a guy did not have any boxes and just set few frames on the top if his little 6-7 frame hive and covered the frames with some rags.
Watch what happened next:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVX0aKfk1Gc


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I keep bees in fixed comb primitive hives for 15 years now. So I probably know a thing or two about it. My suggestions to you are meant friendly, to save you and your bees unnecessary trouble.


Bernard, you’ve got me curious. Do you treat for Varroa in those fixed comb primitive hives? Do you normally requeen them? Do you crush and strain and harvest both the wax and honey?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Riverderwent said:


> Do you treat for Varroa in those fixed comb primitive hives? Do you normally requeen them? Do you crush and strain and harvest both the wax and honey?


Yes, some I treat, some don't. I don't requeen them, rather combine or harvest underperforming hives, for the sake of the bee population. 


I harvest both wax and honey. I dice the comb by cutting, before I put the dices into a honey press. (Read cider press.) It is way better to dice the combs than mashing them before pressing, because much less honey remains in the wax.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> It is way better to dice the combs than mashing them before pressing, because much less honey remains in the wax.


That is helpful!


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

GregV said:


> keep this about the primitive beekeeping


Keep sending the pictures of your primitive beekeeping. 

That is one of my log hives, view from the top. There is a lid on it, that can be removed.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

https://youtu.be/K3af_-oQPUA


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> https://youtu.be/K3af_-oQPUA


Cool video, Bernhard. It is obvious that they are having a lot of fun with their work and Mr. Ed is a natural in front of the camera.

I appreciate the post- thanks for sharing.

Russ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is to continue with the idea of primitive beekeeping.

I wrote about this guy before (too lazy to be looking for the exact posts).
This year he posted a couple of vids just to remind the viewers - he is still at it, just at a lesser scale (cutting back because he is pushing 50 and things are a bit heavier now).

He has been practicing the same exact model - set the traps out/check existing hives in spring - harvest the honey in fall. The true twice-per-year, primitive model.
As far as I am concerned, an entirely valid model of honey enterprising.
That's the primitive beekeeping.

Visiting the remote homestead in fall so to collect the honey (use auto-translated captions).





Brought a trap full of honey home and harvesting it all.
What happens to the bees after they have been completely robbed out?
He dumps them into one of the active hives in the backyard and lets the bees to settle it all out.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Such a shame - an excellent hollow tree broke apart (it was subsequently taken down completely).
The cavity was at least 10 feed deep and at least 12 inch in diameter (see my lunch box for scale).
It also shows how the entrance was way up, not below as was commonly preached earlier. 
Really, most often the natural tree cavities develop downward, not upward. 
This is a good example.

This could be a great bee tree - in an old park with many more old trees full of holes.
I know at least two more hollow trees there.
So indeed, uncultured forests do develop lots of good bee habitat when left alone.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

I did not read this whole thread, but I can tell you from past experience that bringing a bee tree back to your yard is a big mistake. I guess After the SHB showed up I have brought some 20+ bee trees (intact) back to my home yard. They are a haven for small hive beetles. nothing but a breeding ground. As you said the entrance is usually on the top, but not always, even so it is a fact that the bees can not and will not clean out all of the trash that falls to the bottom of the hollow tree. All of this trash turns to a black mushy mud that SHB love to pupate in. I have even had the hollow opened on the bottom and stand the tree up on cinder blocks, trash still fall to the ground and beetles pupate there too. Beetle larva only have to fall off of the comb into this and beetles are right back out on the comb. I brought my last bee tree home this year and will never bring another into my yard. They will go to the pasture or hay field several miles away and cut open. 

Greg I know you are up north and you get some very hard freezes, do you think this might play a role in the number of SHB you see? I would think so.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

G3farms said:


> I did not read this whole thread, but I can tell you from past experience that bringing a bee tree back to your yard is a big mistake.


I did not bring a tree to my yard.
I simply took some pictures.
The thing was huge.

The SHB:

SHB pretty much does not survive here continuously.
however, the annual packages/nucs from down South bring the SHB up here every spring; then we have some reports over the course of the summer, but in winter they mostly perish again.
agree - these tree hollows are ideal SHB breeding ground if bees take a hollow over


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

Greg, glad the SHB can't survive your winters, they are a real pain for us in the warmer climates. If you get to needing some I will ship for free!!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

G3farms said:


> Greg, glad the SHB can't survive your winters, they are a real pain for us in the warmer climates. If you get to needing some I will ship for free!!


NOOOOO!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Cool picture, GregV.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> Cool picture, GregV.


Thanks.
I looked at it again - those tree walls are *thick *- 6-8 inches. Would be a perfect cavity.
Glad I took the pic since they cut down the stump very quickly and took it away (a public park).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is a video of the most classic way to make a brood-less, shook swarm.

Although I don't use the log hives like pictured (have them but only for trapping) - this is essentially what I have done this season when splitting my bees.
Well, I cheated some because there were plenty of ready, empty combs laying around, so I went ahead and use them too (either that OR wax moths will eat them anyway).


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregV said:


> Here is a video of the most classic way to make a brood-less, shook swarm.


He made that look easy...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> He made that look easy...


It really is easy; basically what I have been doing this summer.

This traditional way of splitting (brood, stores and all) - is really another thing that needed to be challenged for some time now.
Contrary to the traditional teachings, no resources are necessary during the prime swarming/prime flow season - just bees and a queen in a box - this is sufficient.

People are afraid of shocking the bees as if they gonna die, gee...  
The old saying indeed works in this instance - "what does not kill you - makes you stronger".
It works.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Sugar water in that spay bottle?

How did he hollow out the logs? What tool?

Did he flame the insides? Looks like it.

Much enjoyed the video. One, he doesn't talk too much and two, there wasn't much wasted time. I wish there were English subtitles.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

AR1 said:


> Sugar water in that spay bottle?
> 
> How did he hollow out the logs? What tool?
> 
> ...


Just water in the bottle I imagine, did not say (to wet the bees and keep them down).
Dunno about the log carving, did not say; but the anything goes.
Torched the insides with wax so get the walls wax saturaged; but that is not critical.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

GregV said:


> Dunno about the log carving, did not say; but the anything goes.


Wish I had a tool to do that.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

AR1 said:


> Wish I had a tool to do that.


Why, any old chain plus one of these:




__





Forged Ax, Hand-Forged Straight Finnish Adze, Forged Straight Adze Woodcarving tools Woodcarving Adze Hand Forged From Hardened Carbon Steel - Google Search






www.google.com


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BTW, if you look carefully, there two different logs are shown.
Bees build their nests totally different in each. 
Some disorganized mess in one (the first one, with bark still on the logs).
Rather well organized the other (the second one, no bark).
Technically, these would be so called "bee gums" (horizontal logs).
Look pretty functional to me even in colder climate (very energy efficient cylinder profile).


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Dr. Dewey Caron- January 2022 ABJ.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Few videos how a bee-tree was created and how it all worked out.
Interesting to observe the natural nest architecture.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> Few videos how a bee-tree was created and how it all worked out.
> Interesting to observe the natural nest architecture.


you mean the "man made nest" as he thinks would be natural
some how if a chainsaw is involved , man, hammer and chisel, then Natural is not the word I would use.

Not nit pickin but it is what it is a man made tree hollow to be used by bees.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> you mean the "man made nest" as he thinks would be natural
> some how if a chainsaw is involved , man, hammer and chisel, then Natural is not the word I would use.
> 
> Not nit pickin but it is what it is a man made tree hollow to be used by bees.
> ...


Of course, it is an approximation but a pretty good one.

But as for me, I'd be totally fine even with this pisspoor level of bee-tree approximation, pictured (much easier to make and use - though still a bear in some other regards):



















From:


Beekeeping with the Warré hive -- Contact




Natural Comb


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> Of course, it is an approximation but a pretty good one.
> 
> But as for me, I'd be totally fine even with this pisspoor level of bee-tree approximation, pictured (much easier to make and use - though still a bear in some other regards):
> 
> ...


sweet
a length adjustable, split able "bee tree"
I like that one better.
the bees in the corners are interesting, maybe it is the stairway..

GG


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

R


GregV said:


> Of course, it is an approximation but a pretty good one.
> 
> But as for me, I'd be totally fine even with this pisspoor level of bee-tree approximation, pictured (much easier to make and use - though still a bear in some other regards):
> 
> ...


Reminds me of Japanese beekeeping. I like the following vid because the beekeeper talks very slowly, and I can pretty much understand what he is saying.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Arguably primitive beekeeping in re-used plastic bottles and kegs.
Re-posting this video link for the reference.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> Arguably primitive beekeeping in re-used plastic bottles and kegs.
> Re-posting this video link for the reference.


did not look very bear "resistant"

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> did not look very bear "resistant"
> 
> GG


Well, for bear resistant beekeeping people should be looking at these, IF the problem exists.
Great concept, but different subject.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

More log hives.
They have several episodes about this "unique" log hive. I mean to take a look and see.

(374) УНИКАЛЬНОЕ НОВОЕ В ПЧЕЛОВОДСТВЕ. - YouTube

In this video, the inventor explains HOW his log hive works.
(374) УНИКАЛЬНАЯ УМНАЯ КОЛОДА, ПЧЕЛОВОДСТВО БЕЗ ГРАНИЦ. - YouTube


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Just a nice video about harvest from a log hive.
The bees perished to varroa, pretty sure.
Very nice comb honey - though I get about the same from my long hives too.
May just jump to 2:00.
(709) Куда делась пчела из колоды?Разбираю колоду. - YouTube


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Reviewing a PDF of "Bashkortostan Wild Bee" (Petrov, 1983).
Stumbled upon an interesting table.

Hunters found and took down several bee trees mid-winter.
The author was able to access 12 of those and take some measurements (Table 20).

Of interest, back to that infamous 40L swarm traps.
The table is listing the volumes of the naturally occupied bee trees.
Look at the numerators - 10 of the 12 cases are *above *40 liters (some are very much above - 202L and 257L).
Seems to me the bees are just taking what available and not particularly looking for ~40L cavities.

(The denominators are kilos of honey retrieved. It looks as if some colonies were about to starve).


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Starts off slow (jump in about 9:00) but very good presentation:


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> ... very good presentation ...


One of the more sobering comments (regarding the bee trees):

_"...the tree is ready when it is 220 to 270 years old. This means a father... prepares the tree for his son or his grandson. That's the perspective in which these people in that part of the world are still thinking."_

If only that were a prevalent philosophy around here...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> One of the more sobering comments (regarding the bee trees):
> 
> _"...the tree is ready when it is 220 to 270 years old. This means a father... prepares the tree for his son or his grandson. That's the perspective in which these people in that part of the world are still thinking."_
> 
> If only that were a prevalent philosophy around here...


It may sound bad.
On the other hand, if I transported my foam boxes 100-200 years back, they'd likely grab them and ask for more.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregB said:


> On the other hand, if I transported my foam boxes 100-200 years back, they'd likely grab them and ask for more.


Maybe so- but I like to appeal to the better angels.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Watch this.

(830) Eating Black mamba and wild honey from stinging bees: A Hadza Documentary - YouTube


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregB said:


> Watch this.


That is cool. Surprised they weren't in the habit of eating the black mamba.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

An excellent research-based article was just posted.
The article about large frames, published in 2007 - even though the article advocates for large frames in Northen setting, it produces many natural numbers - hence I place it here.

Based on the measurements done to the swarms allowed to build their nests from scratch with *no limitations applied* - the bees were placed into empty hives without frames or bars.

Some quick numbers

the swarms were equalized to 2.5 kilos each (5-6 lb)
average comb they built was 1695 cm (squared) in area (~1400 cm squared is a size deep Dadant-Blatt frame)
natural comb separation observed - 37mm on center (just under 1.5" - which is 38mm)
out of ten colonies observed - 7 built combs the warm-way; 2 built the cold-way; one colony built in between
spacing between the honey combs was 7-9mm on average
spacing between the brood combs was 10-12 mm on average (meaning - the comb thickness is variable)
each seam of bees had 3+ kilos of honey accessible
the dimensions of the combs built was about 450-480mm x 435mm (thou I smile about this one as the empty hives given to the bees were most likely empty double-deep Dadants - hence the dimensions were impacted by that setup)
the swarms stored away 27 kilos of honey on average
both colonies that built their combs the cold-way - perished in winter as they ran out of honey above the cluster - they still had 18 and 21 kilos of honey left in the hive

For more - see the article - very good.

Original here - to auto-translate to those interested (under Community tab).
(1019) Улей лежак Якимова - YouTube


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