# When and why / rotating boxes



## cteddo (May 15, 2010)

It seems a few of my colonies are moving upwards and would like to know when it is advisable to rotate boxes. My colonies are all two deep's.


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## bigbore (Feb 25, 2008)

have you started spring buildup?

Rotating brood boxes is a technique used to promote expansion of the brood nest. It isn't a necessity, but it takes advantage of the queen's natural instinct to lay as far up in the nest as she can in the spring to get away from drafts and cold breezes. By switching boxes you place the queen and brood in the bottom box, giving her a empty box above her to lay in. If you are going to do this, there is a time frame that is area/hive specific.

Rotation should be done when the brood area is small but growing. And while the brood is all in one box, The queen will lay in a radiated pattern under the workers and nurse bees. If the brood nest is expanded to the point of being in both boxes, the brood in the box away from the queen will most likely be lost to chilling. If buildup is starting, I wouldn,t bother with rotating. If you split the brood nest, you will set them back worse than if you don't rotate. 

I am telling you this for information, but remember it is all based IMHO...


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## mignolan (Nov 19, 2009)

A related question: I have a bottom deep that's stapled to my hive stand. Is there any reason why not it might not be kosher simply to shift the location of the frames containing brood (and the queen) -- assuming she has relocated at the end of the cold weather season up higher in the hive -- from a mid-level box to the bottom box, and move those that were in the bottom box up to the box above it? Same result, no?

Thanks!


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Last year I rotated mine mid Feb. Checked a couple of my hives today, & they are raising brood. My overwintered nuc's seem to be raising the most.

Wouldn't it be easier to remove the staples?


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## bigbore (Feb 25, 2008)

mignolan said:


> Is there any reason why not it might not be kosher simply to shift the location of the frames containing brood (and the queen) -- assuming she has relocated at the end of the cold weather season up higher in the hive -- Thanks!


Remember this, you are doing this manipulation as early as you can. You don't want to do any more disturbance than you need to. Best thing to do is just pull the staples and switch the box on the base as suggested. you can come back later and drive the staples in on the new box.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I see no reason to rotate. The bees in a tree move up as winter progresses and back down as the flow progresses.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#stopswitching


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Bees in a tree do not produce a surplus honey crop.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Bees in trees swarm every year.


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## Laurence Hope (Aug 24, 2005)

I don't rotate mine and get both a good surplus and minimal swarming. Also, once again, less manipulation, aggravation to the bees, and less work for me. Gives me more time to find those doggone "ghost queens" when I need to requeen.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

I would like to arbitrate this discussion, but don't have enough time left on the bright side of turf grass to sustain the resultant flap.
Walt


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wcubed said:


> I would like to arbitrate this discussion, but don't have enough time left on the bright side of turf grass to sustain the resultant flap.
> Walt


Nothing wrong with discussion and debate Walt. But "arbitrator" implies a neutral position, while worrying about the resulting "flap" implies control.

I would certainly welcome an open and honest debate, but not one sided opinion.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Walt and Mike. You guys did this last winter, and those of us in ringside seats loved every line of it. If you do it again I'm sure the rerun will be just as educational.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

cteddo said:


> It seems a few of my colonies are moving upwards and would like to know when it is advisable to rotate boxes. My colonies are all two deep's.


Do a search on this topic and you will find very lively discussions.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

winevines said:


> Do a search on this topic and you will find very lively discussions.


And some have changed their opinions over the years... 

This is a short "classic" thread.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191981

I'm going to pull empty hive bodies in the Spring to trim the frames down to 1.25" width.

It's more efficient  to combine controversial practices. IMO


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Walt and Mike. You guys did this last winter, and those of us in ringside seats loved every line of it. If you do it again I'm sure the rerun will be just as educational.


I agree completely. I learned a lot from both.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

After a break for visiting family we don't see much, we come back to this Question. It deserves an answer. Note that we don't have many multi-sided opinions, but this may be one of them. (Or two different opinions)

bigbore provided many of the considerations involved in reversal, but his input was more oriented to the northern approach, where brood/cluster is located in the upper deep coming out of winter and the bottom deep is mostly empty. In the band of mild winters of coastal CA, you are more likely to have an upper deep of stores - mostly honey. If that's not the case, ignore the following:

The "Why" for you is different. Swarm prevention is the major reason for reversal - highly recommended by some. In areas of good field forage support in the swarm prep period, reversal at two week intervals is recommended. That keeps the colony in a strain trying to reorganize the brood nest and interferes in swarm preps. Works most of the time.

The timing is also different for you. "As soon as possible" is not appropriate with a deep of stores overhead. The colony needs that overhead honey to grow into. (When the empty is raised, they put nectar there to grow into)
What you are seeing as bees in the upper is likely the population growth of buildup. In that stage of developement, the colony can almost double the size of the broodnest in a brood cycle of 3 weeks. They are in a hurry to build the population to swarm potential. The beek needs to pay close attention to the growth if he intends avert the swarm. And as bigbore pointed out - it happens on a per-colony-unique basis. We won't go into all the reasons that colonies in the same location are of different strengths.

There is a point in brood nest/population growth that you can intercede in the process without fear of the results of brood nest division. When the broodnest expansion dome has grown into about half the upper, they have the population to protect the divided brood. It's a short window of opportunity that precedes the start of swarm preps. Not many beeks would have the time to monitor that closely. Reversal at that time and adding drawn comb above is fairly effective.

Second best is to reverse during the swarm prep period. That's the time between max broodnest expansion and the commitment to swarm by starting swarm cells. Might have to do it more than once, but you can relax by mid swarm issue timing or the start of main flow. Again, drawn comb at the top if you have it.

They are already swarming in the San Diego area, so you have some time to get ready. I would guess that KQ6AR's date of mid Feb would be about right - maybe a tad late for the pacesetters.

Walt


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## mignolan (Nov 19, 2009)

Is it really common practice to hammer in staples when the hive is occupied? Seems like it might have unpleasant results.



bigbore said:


> Remember this, you are doing this manipulation as early as you can. You don't want to do any more disturbance than you need to. Best thing to do is just pull the staples and switch the box on the base as suggested. you can come back later and drive the staples in on the new box.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Yeah, of course they object, but with some smoke and decent bees, you get the job done without too much pain. But, there's always one...

I used to move 600 hives by hand into and out of apples. All 3 story hives. The entire operation was stapled together...that's 12 staples per hive and 7200 total. 

I still remember Buddy's yard. See, Buddy and I sometimes christen an apiary with a name...other than the usual land owner name. So, Terry's yard was one up by the Canadian border in Champlain, NY where Terry got the snot stung out of himself. We were working in T-shirts and Terry couldn't come out of hiding in the woods. The cloud of bees attacked him with no mercy. So...Terry's yard.

Well, Buddy's yard was in Chazy, NY. This was just after pollination, and it was time to open hives up for checking queens, supering, etc. He got to one hive and pulled the first staple....CREEEEEEKKK. Those bees poured out of that hive like an arrow and there goes Buddy, hands flailing like a bat out of Hades.

He comes back to the hive...to finish that first staple...first of 12.
CREEEEKKK! Yep, there goes Buddy again with the point of the arrow squarely on the back of his head.

Needless to say, they reacted the same to every staple, and Buddy's yard got its name.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

_"...I wrote a good bit about REVERSING. Reversing is a major anti-swarm management tool that you should be using to break up brood chamber congestion which is now considered the number ONE cause of swarming. *Age of your queen is considered the number TWO cause of swarming in swarm SEASON, which is April and early May in central Maryland.* Swarming during a good honey flow in middle to late May is due to lack of enough supers of DRAWN COMB in place AHEAD of the bee's need for space, which is all YOUR FAULT, not the bees."_ > George Imrie.http://pxbacher.home.comcast.net/~pxbacher/PinkPages/2002_Feb_-_Major_Honey_Crop_or_Dead_Bees.html

In my area [WI.,always among the top ten honey producing states], isn't it imperative to have "huge" field force of nectar foraging bees at the right time of the season to take advantage of nectar flows that might not be available in other parts of the country? If I did not reverse and "waited" for the nectar flows of May to early June [my area] to cause the queen to go down to the bottom box, _["The bees in a tree move up as winter progresses and back down as the flow progresses._"] I would miss out on the early, maybe varietal [expensive?] honey like the fruit bloom or Black Locust or Black raspberry honey [Yummy!!] and others...wouldn't I ?

> _"I see no reason to rotate." - Nebraska._
>_ 'Bees in trees swarm every year." Vermont. _
> _"Swarm prevention is the major reason for reversal - highly recommended by some." - _Tennessee, USA
>"I don't rotate mine and get both a good surplus and minimal swarming."- California.
> I rotate mine with *young queens* less than 2 seasons old and get *a huge surplus of honey* with minimal swarming. - Wisconsin. [That's me]

cteddo. I guess  all you can do is reverse some colonies and not others. See what you come up with as the "best method" of keeping bees in California,...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslocality.htm

"In my earlier beekeeping years I was often sorely puzzled at the diametrically opposite views often expressed by the different correspondents for the bee journals. In extension of that state of mind I may say that at that time I did not dream of the wonderful differences of locality in its relation to the management of bees. I saw, measured weighted, compared, and considered all things apicutlural by the standard of my own home--Genesee County, Michigan. It was not until I had seen the fields of New York white with buckwheat, admired the luxuriance of sweet-clover growth in the suburbs of Chicago, followed fo r miles the great irrigating ditches of Colorado, where they give lift to the royal purple of the alfalfa bloom, and climbed mountains in California, pulling myself up by grasping the sagebrush, that I fully realized the great amount of apicultural meaning stored up in that one little word--locality." --W.Z. Hutchinson, Advanced Bee Culture


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Oldbees' quote of George Imries interests me because all the books echo Imries' thoughts about getting drawn comb on early. I wonder how much swarming for the novice Beek is caused by not having that drawn comb and the bees plugging the broodnest? 
When you combine the lack of drawn comb with inexperience the odds seem stacked against the newbie.
Finally, after last season I have drawn comb.:banana:


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## mignolan (Nov 19, 2009)

Hee-hee-hee! That's just great! I read your post below to my wife, but she didn't think it was as funny as I did. Ha! Her loss!




Michael Palmer said:


> Yeah, of course they object, but with some smoke and decent bees, you get the job done without too much pain. But, there's always one...
> 
> I used to move 600 hives by hand into and out of apples. All 3 story hives. The entire operation was stapled together...that's 12 staples per hive and 7200 total.
> 
> ...


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Q.What is a good way to get a well supplied inventory of drawn frames? 

Obviously you cannot expect the bees to bee productive if they are always drawing out frames. 


Michael Palmer you varwee varwee funeeee...& twickie huhuhuuhuhh:lpf:


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

lakebilly said:


> Q.What is a good way to get a well supplied inventory of drawn frames?


Time+bees+nectar+patience.

Works for me, though it's hard to have them all at the same time.

Wayne


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

One way to get some extra super frames drawn is "bottom super." On the trailing edge of main flow, insert the super of foundation immediately above the brood nest. The colony "wants" nectar/honey feed there. On the trailing edge of the flow they will typically draw F there when they won't draw it at the top of the stack. Too much work for most folks.
Walt


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

full super of empty frames?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wcubed said:


> One way to get some extra super frames drawn is "bottom super." On the trailing edge of main flow,


On the trailing edge? Why not on the flush?


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

This has been an enjoyable thread!!


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

My interest in beekeeping was based on honey production (suplemental retirement income.) And minimum work/time. As the system evolved over time, we were always a little short on drawn comb toward the end of main flow to get max production. Inserting foundation (F) immediately above the broodnest, on the trailing edge of the flow, did not create reduced production - they wouldn't use it at the top anyway and the motivation at the brood nest might give us a little more honey. Meet two objectives with one trick. Of course, you need to monitor for the slow-down at the top.

We had the advantage of having already shifted to a single deep and shallows for a wintering config. With the double deep config. at the start of main flow capping of honey starts at the top of the broodnest and grows in both up and down directions - up with increased storage and down with brood nest reduction. Capping of the upper deep with honey is a slow process and takes awhile. The top of the broodnest has to recede the full depth of the deep to super "immediately above." With shallows, you can get closer any time you choose. The closer you get to the brood, the better the motivation to draw the F. Yes, you can bottom super with F during the main flow, but the time/work penalty goes up proportionately. Complicated, no?? Hope I've made it understandable.

Incidentally, we didn't arrive at our wintering config. because we didn't know better. It evolved from our objectives. An article in next month's BC treats brood volumes with the "system."

We, collectively, have strayed way off topic.

Walt


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