# frames keep splitting



## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

I'm pretty handy with a nail and hammer but 75% of the frames I'm building (I am a newbie) are splitting. They are F Style Walter Kelley frames. I'm using the supplied nails, 1" for the bottom boards & 1 1/4" for the top board. I'm also using Titebond III glue. Here's a picture of a split.








I've used both a regular size hammer and a mini one.

This is also aggravating. The middle wood tab of the side bar isn't as long as the sides so when my nail goes thru, it bounces off this shorter tab and goes crooked! Why would they make them this way?








I doubt the bees will care about the splits but I feel like this will hurt integrity of the frame, especially during extraction. 

Suggestions?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

It will help if you nail only from the top and bottom and not through the sidebar ears. Some batches of wood can be more split prone than others. Have a container with about an inch of warm water in it and soak the ends of all the pieces you find splitting. Can you show a picture of the nails? They are supposed to be thin bodied "wire" nails; maybe somebody goofed!


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

The Kelley frames I've assembled seem to be very hard wood, and prone to splitting more than other frames with a softer wood. If you are using Titebond III then the nails are more or less to just hold the parts together while the glue sets. The glued joints will actually be stronger than the surrounding wood.

You may want to go to the hardware store and buy some smaller diameter nails, especially for the bottoms. Try a 3/4" X 18 for the bottom and see if that helps reduce the splitting. The nail in the first picture seems to be way too big for frame assembly.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

That is a mess!

Nail looks awful big in diameter for dry wood and nailing that close to the end. Think the only way it amy work is to drill a pilot hole just a tad smaller than nail diameter.

Think most nailing/stapling of frames is through the bottom into the side rail of the frame. Have done some 1 1/4 hardwood flooring nails through the bottom, and again a piolt hole made for less splitting.

18 guage 1 1/4 air nails or air staples work very well, but again through the bottom into the side rails.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Dulling the nail will prevent splitting, and should be done when nailing thin pieces near the end of the piece. 

See, the nail acts like a wedge and the wood splits as the nail forces the grain apart. Try this...

Hold the nail with the head on a hard surface. I use a small 2x4 steel block that has a permanent location on my workbench. The head of a 16p nail nailed flush into the bench will work, too. Tap the point of the nail once with your hammer...only once mind you as twice will bend the nail. This flattens the tip of the nail, and the flat spot punches a pilot hole as it passes through the wood, rather than wedging the grain apart.


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## jrhoto (Mar 2, 2009)

The nail in the picture looks to be too big for cross nailing.If you glue with titebond wood glue you wont need to cross nail.You can also soak them in water ,use a smaller nail if you cross nail.


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

OK, nailing from the bottom up was way better. Thanks for all the suggestions guys! Happy Thanksgiving.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I've discovered that nailing, up from the bottom, as you illustrate in your latest photo, can also be done in a manner, similar to toe-nailing, by driving them in at nearly a 45 degree angle, where they are driven in on an angle that takes them through tne Bottom Bar and into the End Bar where their tips are now, under the opposite side of the Bottom Bar, and vice versa. This makes it a little more difficult for the Bottom Bars to be pulled out of the End Bars, the Titebond III glue also helps this process, in a big way.

For my first forty years, or so, I simply drove the nails, straight in, through the Bottom Bar ends, and didn't even use any glue. With so many Bottom Bars pulling off over the years, I finally started crossing the nails, this helped, then I added the Titebond III glue. This was even better. All through this time, I kept telling myself that I would never need or want to graduate to using a pneumatic stapler. About two year ago I purchased a small compressor and staple gun. It allows me to carefully over-fasten my frames together, so they'd need to be completely destroyed to ever get them apart, again, and it's way more fun than just using nails and hammer.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

jrhoto said:


> You can also soak them in water


I always soak the endbars and have had a minimum of splitting.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

JustinH said:


> OK, nailing from the bottom up was way better. Thanks for all the suggestions guys! Happy Thanksgiving.
> View attachment 8368


Still somewhat of a split. Try flattening the tip of the nail and that will help considerably. If still problems with the nail you are using then drill a pilot hole, time consuming but pilot hole greatly reduces chances of splitting and/or nail coming out a side of the side rail.

Can pick up some 1 1/4 steel fluted hard wood florring nails as they are smaller diameter.

Then put a compressor, brad nailer and stapler on your Christmas list!


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

JustinH said:


> OK, nailing from the bottom up was way better. Thanks for all the suggestions guys! Happy Thanksgiving.
> View attachment 8368


Who makes frames with that design? a rabbeted bottom? is that commercial or homemade? First thing I would do is change the design. The wood way is to thin at those rabbets to withstand the propensity to split. Get yourself an airgun and use staples. Thinner, stronger, faster.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JustinH said:


> OK, nailing from the bottom up was way better. Thanks for all the suggestions guys! Happy Thanksgiving.
> View attachment 8368


That's how you are supposed to nail the bottom bars onto the end bar. Are those the nails that came w/ the frames? They look a little big.

Were there no directions?


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Honey-4-All said:


> Who makes frames with that design? a rabbeted bottom? is that commercial or homemade? First thing I would do is change the design. The wood way is to thin at those rabbets to withstand the propensity to split. Get yourself an airgun and use staples. Thinner, stronger, faster.


Those look like Kelley's split bottom frame.. with their foundationless top. I split a bunch of those frames a gave up trying to use them.. Good concept poorly implemented.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

mgolden said:


> Then put a compressor, brad nailer and stapler on your Christmas list!


Harbor Freight just put out their Turkey day sale... they have a 15 dollar air stapler.. I but one or two when they are on sale.. One of these days, I'll break one and have a backup.

I've shot ~15k staples through the second one and it hasn't missed a beat. My dad took the first one and it's still stapling away.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Pneumatic is the way to go, don't waste your life away with hammer and nails...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Don't pneumatically staple your finger to the frame. Powered tools make making mistakes faster and more harmful.


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## Cascade Hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> Dulling the nail will prevent splitting, .


Oh how many times have I told people this and they never believe it........

@OP - you really need a pneumatic or electric stapler.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

And waxing them too.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I have seen so many frames nailed from the top down and bottom up (another older beekeeper in my area). Very unstable way of nailing from a structural point of view. Cross nailing (perpendicular to the end bars) and glueing is the ticket to strong frames.
I can't tell you how many top bars come off from trying to pry the frames from the supers. Can you imagine how difficult it is to remove the rest of the frame?


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

mr.beeman, I thought nailing perpendicular sounded like it would be stronger too. That's why I started that way. The directions from Kelley's were terrible. But nailing perpendicular was giving me the splits. Nailing straight up thru the side boards may not be as strong but the splits have stopped. This is a case of ****ed if you do, ****ed if you don't.

sqkcrk, yes they are the nails that came with them.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Did directions mention glue? nails only hold things together while the glue sets. 

A nail thru the end bar into the top bar is crucial.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Did directions mention glue? nails only hold things together while the glue sets.
> 
> A nail thru the end bar into the top bar is crucial.


I apply glue to both surfaces with top bar and end rails and nail/staple through the top and have not had a problem in three years with top rail coming off. But never say never!

Another good trick is to apply glue to 4 inch of the center notch of bottom rail before installing plastic foundation. This allows the foundation to provide support to the center of the bottom rail.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Mark, do you think that nail through from the endbar into the top bar is practical today or is is it dated advice. With most staple guns it seems like a difficult shot and is very close to bottom of the birdsmouth in the endbar; It wouldnt do much in tension loading and the two nails from the top takes care of shear. With a wedge top bar it should only go into topbar wood on the other side of the groove. It is difficult with a hammer and has to be driven home with a nail set! I can see it being valid on some of the British style frames though. Just wondering how many people really do that anymore.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You could be right. Though I never had trouble hammering that nail home. I don't own a nail set tool. Just a small hammer. A square head tack hammer works well. Y'all are in too much of a hurry. Or you really have a lot of frames to assemble.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Lol! well, I would like to see some video footage of that and see how many of those square head hammer blows have missed their mark or or put marks on Mark's thumb and fingers instead:lookout:


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

KevinR said:


> Harbor Freight just put out their Turkey day sale... they have a 15 dollar air stapler.. I but one or two when they are on sale.. One of these days, I'll break one and have a backup.
> 
> I've shot ~15k staples through the second one and it hasn't missed a beat. My dad took the first one and it's still stapling away.


Best advice given in this thread! These guns are cheap and work GREAT!


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## imthegrumpyone (Jun 29, 2013)

Pre drill the holes ? No splitting !


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> You could be right. Though I never had trouble hammering that nail home. I don't own a nail set tool. Just a small hammer. A square head tack hammer works well. Y'all are in too much of a hurry. Or you really have a lot of frames to assemble.


Once at the winter VBA meeting, we had a frame nailing competition. You got a top bar, a bottom bar, two side bars, nails and the hammer of your choice. Time was added to total time for any mistakes made...splits, bent nails, etc. With a 16oz hammer, I won the competition in under a minute.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Gonna have to rename you John Henry Palmer.


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## Harvester (Jan 19, 2013)

crofter said:


> Lol! well, I would like to see some video footage of that and see how many of those square head hammer blows have missed their mark or or put marks on Mark's thumb and fingers instead:lookout:


I use a small pair of needle-nosed pliers to hold the nail when doing difficult attachments. Tack hammer & pliers keeps fingers out of glue too.
Have a great day!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Harvester, I dremelled a groove in a pair of pliers to grip nails dead solid in line with the handles and push them in a fair ways. On wedge top bars I can shove the nails right home without hammering and have the occasional miss damage the foundation. This works slick for placing the nails in sidebars for anchoring cross wires.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I have always driven two nails through the top bar into the end bar and then one through the outside face of the end bar into the top bar, with glue. So far no frames have pulled apart.

This is how my grandpa nailed his up.

If you leave out that cross nail, the frames will pull apart fairly easily. Yes, you have to be careful on wedge type top bars to get it into the wood, but the frame will stay together in use, I think. 

I don't see how a nail through the "ear" on the end bar is going to do a thing for strength, there just isn't enough wood there to hold. The nail should go through the face of the end bar under the ends of the top bar, where they hang in the boxes, and into the top bar along the axis, not sideways. On wedge type top bars, you must drive it into the solid side, of course -- it won't do anything for you sticking out into space.

Peter


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

psfred said:


> I have always driven two nails through the top bar into the end bar and then one through the outside face of the end bar into the top bar, with glue. So far no frames have pulled apart.
> 
> This is how my grandpa nailed his up.
> 
> ...


Wondering if your Grandpa was using and type of glue???? Nails hold the wood in place until the glue dries. IMHO<, if one applies appropriate amount of good wood glue and spreads it around/over all joining wood surfaces, two nails in the solid part of the top rails and in to the side rails is probably all that is needed.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

No, Grandpa didn't use glue -- he quit beekeeping after a stroke in the late 60's, started in the 20's. Made his own boxes and used Kelley frames.

Those three nails, plus the propolis the bees will provide, should hold pretty well. Always pays to be careful moving frames. 

Peter


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

A cross nail would serve a very good function if no glue was being used and now understand where the practice came from. 

With an appropriate amount of good wood glue, applied properly, I question the value of of the cross nail.


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## Pete O (Jul 13, 2013)

I've been using the Kelley frames for a couple of years and not a single split. Instructions for nailing come with each box and they can be a bit confusing; read them carefully. On the top of the frames the nails go straight down; on the bottom the nail goes through the sides. Use Titebond glue and a small hammer; two gentle blows should drive the nail home.

The nail in your first post was HUGE; it almost looks like a roofing nail.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

The glue is only as strong as the wood it's attached to, and there isn't that much side to side grain on the end bar to top bar connection. Properly placed, the cross nail is probably stronger than the glue since the "ears" of the end bars can easily be split off. Even Titebond III won't prevent the end or top bar from splintering!

I've been using full 3/8" end bars on my home-made frames rather than the 5/16" factory ones as well -- very much stronger, much more so that one would expect from the 1/16" difference,

Peter


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

crofter said:


> Lol! well, I would like to see some video footage of that and see how many of those square head hammer blows have missed their mark or or put marks on Mark's thumb and fingers instead:lookout:


Oh thing is for sure. I have never run a nail or hammer head through a finger. But I have seen guys w/ a frame part stapled to a finger.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> a frame part stapled to a finger.


I had a 1.5" staple take a 180 degree turn back out of the wood and through the tip of my thumb.... I called myself being careful... Since I normally only see that when it shoots it the side, not coming back out itself from the direction it being nailed from. 

Either way, there as a brief moment of what was that... Then I pulled the frame off my thumb and kept stapling... There are about 40 or so frames that have bloody finger prints on them somewhere in my hives. *doh*


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes, Kevin, and I know a guy who left finger parts in the table saw sawdust pile and kept on cutting.


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