# Queen release into a package



## wholesomedirt (Feb 2, 2014)

I read Michael Bush's instructions on direct queen releasing into a package. So I (8 frame mediums) remove the cork from the non candy end of the queen cage, and insert the cage into the gap where I have pulled one frame then reinsert the frame? Do I need to get the cage out when she leaves? How do I get the queen cage out? How do I drop the cage without killing her?


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## JStinson (Mar 30, 2013)

You're over thinking it. Take a frame from one of the ends of the box and put it to the side. Separate the two middle frames and put the queen cage between them (with the screen away from the foundation, not towards it). Move them back together. Replace the end frame if there's room for it. 

Wait a few days or a week and remove the cage. 

Get it out the same way you put it in. 



> How do I drop the cage without killing her?


You aren't "dropping" the cage between two frames. You are _wedging_ the cage gently between the two pieces of foundation in the two middle frames. Like a queen cage sammich.


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## Kevtater (May 17, 2013)

Pull a frame out, dump the package in. I pull the cork/candy and shove a marshmallow in, they'll eat it in 8-12 hrs and release her. There's probably a metal tab on the cage, if there isn't one, make one out of a paper clip, bend the metal tab over a nail so the cage hangs between two frames. Open up in a day, replace the frame, pull the cage and make sure the queen is released. Then leave them alone for a while.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Make sure the exit hole for the cage is upwards. In case one of the nurse bees is dead in the cage it will not block the hole. Wait three days and pull the cage.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you are direct releasing, the only real trick is keeping her from flying. You will need to pull at least three frames, four would be better. After you dump the bees in, pull the cork (while she is facing away from you) and put your thumb over the hole (quickly and gently, she might make a run for it) you can now gently place the cage on top of the pile of bees. I would not drop it. If you do drop it, it won't hurt anything. Then gently set the frames in. The frames will slowly settle down as the bees move out of the way. Keep your body over the hive to make a shadow so the queen isn't looking at the sky and tempted to fly. After the frames settle down far enough put the cover on. You can take the cage out whenever it is convenient for you. Next week. Next year. Next century...

The biggest downside to this is that whether the queen is in a cage or not, a lot of packages move next door (leaving the queen in the cage or the queen by herself or with three or four attendants) and if you direct release you may think that was the cause. If you don't direct release then you won't blame direct release for the cause... Twenty years ago this happened rarely. In recent years it happens routinely...


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

I'll be introducing two packages about 6 feet apart. This "moving next door" is the first I'm hearing of this so I'll add that to my long list of newbee concerns. I've spent hours getting my hives perfectly level (for foundationless frames) so moving them 30-40 feet away like Beeman suggest isn't really an option for me in the backyard. So what if when I install the packages I erect a 30' tarp temporarily in between them as a shield? That would be a pain in the ass but if it will help the moving next door thing I'll do it. Thoughts?


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## crewdog61 (Oct 23, 2012)

JustinH 
Thinking with a tarp about spring and early summer storms you may have a hive wrapped up in a tarp poss. damage from being light on weight just thinking may want to just turn you hives 180 from each other until they take off with bees. Just my 2 cents.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'll be introducing two packages about 6 feet apart. This "moving next door" is the first I'm hearing of this so I'll add that to my long list of newbee concerns.

With only a few to do, I would install them at dusk. If it gets dark in the next few minutes, they will settle down quickly. By morning they will be much more likely to stay put. You could also plug the entrances of all but one with grass. The one is so the loose bees have somewhere to go in case it gets cold that first night. They will probably push the grass out by the next day. If not, I would remove it the second night. My problem is if I get packages (which I usually don't) I usually buy a hundred, set them up and then a month later break them all up for mating nucs. When I install a hundred, I really can't wait for dusk...

Also, if you can install them in the rain, it's to your advantage... or if the first day is cold it tends to keep them in...

The tarp is too much work and probably won't make any difference.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNaQNma_t0U&feature=player_embedded

I like this one better than spraying bees with water and notice he does not shake,bump, or dump bees and NO bees flying.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I agree Ed. No need to be aggressive. Remember this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a4a-Tw-qFI


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

this is the normal way for a beginner to install a pkg vs dumping a queen into the hive. the most important detail is to get the pkg out the next day before the queen is released. too long and they start comb in or around the pkg. then leave them alone to get established. too many beekeepers disturb them too soon which results in queen loss.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

beeware10 said:


> this is the normal way for a beginner to install a pkg


What are you referring to? There's been an assortment of ways presented.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

The "insert the whole package into the hive" route works good for a deep super. Not so much for a medium super. lol


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

I was refering to releasing the queen directly with the package by pulling the cork. not recommended for new beekeepers. for the value of a queen I would never do it that way. now virgin queens can be introduced that way as they have not developed pheromones yet.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

All it takes in a medium box is 2 boxes or a spacer under the box to make it deep enough for the package cage and yes it is important to remove the cage next day.
I don't have it now but do have a copy from a book printed in 1934 showing this method of installing a package.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I would not tell anybody to direct release a queen at install. If she flys off you are unlikely to see it happen and a replacement is likely weeks away. A lost queen is a hard thing for a package to recover from.


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## wholesomedirt (Feb 2, 2014)

Thanks, everyone. That is a whole lot of advice. I am going to try the direct release. All the old timers in my bee clubs have already told me how crazy I am for going foundationless. This will just be another opportunity for an "I told you so".


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Best of luck to you. I hope you realize it could be an "I told you so" opportunity for them also.

Other then the fact that she can fly away the primary reason for a candy release in a package on no foundation and no comb is going to be that it keeps the queen in the hive until the bees have started drawing some comb for her to lay in. If she is direct release and doesn't like the hive you give her, she will leave and the entire pack is going to go with her.

The only reason I care is because I provide emotional support every year to customers who attempted to direct release and failed. If you loose the pack you are out bees for the season.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

some people have to learn the hard way. good luck


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## wholesomedirt (Feb 2, 2014)

Yeah I meant an I told you so for them, not for me anyway. Have either of you attempted a direct release?


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Ok... by all means go ahead and try the direct release. (Reverse psychology)


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## wholesomedirt (Feb 2, 2014)

Thanks, MrBeeman. I'm not questioning you. I appreciate your time helping me.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Where is Jim Fischer when you need him... he was a big proponent of direct release... The problem is the same as many in beekeeping. If you don't do a direct release and they abandon the queen (which they do frequently enough) then it will be an "oh well I did what I could" moment. If do an direct release and they abandon the queen (which they do at exactly the same frequency) it will be "if only you hadn't direct released" moment...

I've done enough of both to be quite sure it makes no difference. It does make a difference if something keeps them confined over night (dark, cold, rain etc) before they can fly much, but I hate trapping all the bees that are loose outside if they could die from cold overnight (always a possibility in my climate). You do need to try to keep the queen from flying, but putting the cage on the bottom usually accomplishes that well enough.

If she does fly you need to just stand there with the lid open for about ten minutes. Watch for her. If she flies back in, you can close up. If not, keep waiting until ten minutes have elapsed. Sometimes she will land on you. You are a distinguishing landmark and she will orient on you.

I have not seen a candy cage in more than a decade and a half. All the packages here come in California cages.


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## JustinH (Nov 11, 2013)

Michael, when you say "putting the cage on the bottom", do you mean after removing the cork, lay the whole queen cage on the bottom on the pile of bees I just gently dumped in? Or set the cage quickly on the bottom bars of the frames you did not remove for the install?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>do you mean after removing the cork, lay the whole queen cage on the bottom on the pile of bees I just gently dumped in?

>> After you dump the bees in, pull the cork (while she is facing away from you) and put your thumb over the hole (quickly and gently, she might make a run for it) you can now gently place the cage on top of the pile of bees. 

There is nothing gentle about dumping bees in. You slam the box and pour bees, slam it again and pour more bees, slam it again and shake out bees... You have to surprise them to get them to let go... The cage, on the other hand, you can gently set on the pile of bees...


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## wholesomedirt (Feb 2, 2014)

My rationale on direct release is this. I'm fortunate to live within driving distance of a reputable small cell bee producer. I'm thinking the quicker I get her in, the less impact it will have on her ovaries. There's a high likelihood she would not be in the cage 12 hours. My only concern would be that the package would have no time to acclimate to her phermones. I'm quickly learning that beekeeping is often a lesser of two evils activity!


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Barry said:


> I agree Ed. No need to be aggressive. Remember this one?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a4a-Tw-qFI


Other than not taking the queen cage out and prepping that first, and taking WAY too long to get it all closed up... What is wrong with this method?

Seemed better than rattling them around and trying to pour them all out of the can whole.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Nothing, other than what you mentioned. I would remove the queen first. I remove the queen cage and get it set between two frames and then remove a side screen and gently lay it on the side where the bees will go right down in the hive. I don't like the banging and hitting of the box to dislodge bees.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Well, I would not have smoked them. Not saying its a terrible thing to do, but smell is how they get organized and I don't see any reason to interfere with it. A package is seldom agressive. I've taken the screen off the side before, but it's more work and I can't give the boxes to someone who might want them.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Smoking a package seems pointless. They have nowhere to go and I'd think if anything, it could make them more agitated. I've never opened a cage and the the bees do anything but crawl around.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

wholesomedirt said:


> Yeah I meant an I told you so for them, not for me anyway. Have either of you attempted a direct release?


I always direct release, but I have 20 plus years experience and I install on drawn comb. I sell 100s of packs a year and tell every one of my customers not to direct release, and yet every year I end up fielding dozens of calls from customers who direct released and now can't find the queen. Often the queen is probably in the hive, but they don't know if she is or not and they panic. They don't have the experience to tell by the way the bees are active if they are queen-rite or not... So I send them a new queen, only to hear later that the bees all left before the new queen got there, or the hive was queen-rite all along and killed the replacement when introduced... Now I am out a 25.00 queen, plus 18 bucks in shipping because they didn't listen.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> Well, I would not have smoked them. Not saying its a terrible thing to do, but smell is how they get organized and I don't see any reason to interfere with it. A package is seldom agressive. I've taken the screen off the side before, but it's more work and I can't give the boxes to someone who might want them.


Yeah, forgot about that faux pas... I don't even own bees yet and thought "that is kind of dumb" .


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## emorris (May 31, 2013)

honeyman46408 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNaQNma_t0U&feature=player_embedded
> 
> I like this one better than spraying bees with water and notice he does not shake,bump, or dump bees and NO bees flying.


Do you think you could do this same method with a brand new TBH? Plugging up all the holes and pulling the package out after 1 day?

Are there any downsides to this method? (newbee here opcorn


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