# shb



## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

we are seeing more SHB this year than last, like you I attribute it to the very early heat and humidity. Seems like they have really come on strong the past few weeks. Get ready, I dont know about your area but in ours the beetles peak in Aug/Sept.... usually our hottest months. Gonna get worse before it gets better.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

They're bad even this far north. 

As you both already know.....hives in full sun!
I don't do splits after April 15. 
I don't allow more than two extracting supers on a hive at any time.
I never 'bottom super'.
When returning extracted supers I will only put one on a hive.
The only hives that get a complete inspection after June 15 are the ones that appear to be troubled.
I want loads of bees in my hives by July. Big bee beards are a comfort.

I've still lost a few this season to shb. In each case the hive went queenless...failed to successfully make a replacement...and I didn't catch it quickly enough.


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## Dale Hodges (Jul 13, 2007)

I'm in central FL and the SHB are terrible this year. I havn't seen this kind of damage in years. They are taken hives I normally would consider safe. We split heavy this year and we've lost hives with 2-3 frames of capped brood.
Usually when you've got a queen laying and a good population , you think "that hives on the way". Its been rough keeping them out of queen nucs.Seems like they are picking the weakest hive in the yard. Its got me mumbling some things I probably shouldn't.


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## jesuslives31548 (May 10, 2008)

Spoke with someone today at University of Georgia Bee Research. They made mention about the SHB taking the perfect opertunity during the robbing confussion to lay a large amount of eggs. They also stated theyhave not heard of any SHB issues other then what is normally reported. The beetle barns I placed on the top, botom and middle are empty. As mentioned its a new yard never used. I treated the ground today hoping it will help. I cant understand why the house bees are not remving the larva. Maybe due to the stink of the honey and slim? I have my hives in direct sunlight. I cracked the lids on all of them hoping the light will slow them down a little. We replaced all the frames that had SHB with new frames and foundation. We run wood/wax, some wood, plastic cell. Will let you know how things turn out.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

What do you use in your beetle barns?


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

As you've already discovered, strong hives don't mean anything to hive beetles, at least in FL and S. GA. You have to use traps and kill them as fast as they enter the hive or you will lose the hive. The bees do not remove SHB; I don't care what anybody tells you! Once they get to the larva stage and infesting the combs, take out whatever good frames you have left, along with the bees, and destroy the infested comb in a solar wax melter or other heat source. Spraying the ground will control larva in the ground, but when they've gotten to the larva stage in the ground the hive is gone. We need USDA and the universities spending more research dollars and time on this problem. I'd rather have varroa any day over SHB.


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## Dale Hodges (Jul 13, 2007)

A WHILE BACK SOMEONE SAID THE UNIV FL opps... had found a bait for SHB but couldn't find anyone to manufacter it. In my way of thinking ..if we could atract them to a trap , wouldn't the biggest part of the battle be over? We have fly traps around barns, wasp traps ....seem like the works done, but then I don't know anything about manufactering. You can check a hive and find no SHB and then 48 hours later they're "slimed" how do you defend against that?


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## jesuslives31548 (May 10, 2008)

Fish_stix I agee with you, I can deal with the mites for the most part. I have been keeping bees for a long time, prior to the SHB comming on the scene. I have had a few but nothing like this year. Any recommendation for bait in the barn???? The roach paste does not seem to work in the barn for me. Others swear by it. I think my problem started after robbing the bees.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Every location is different, but I've been having real good success with the AJ's Beetle eater traps I bought from Dadants... tried the cd jewel box traps last year, didn't get but 2 beetles in one trap in one of 14 hives. 

I put the AJ traps, 2-4 per hive, depending on size of hive. I check every week or two, and so far the beetles have been kept down to maybe 4-5 in the worst hive. Some of the traps have to be cleaned out regularly. I use mineral oil in them. Nice to see all those drowned beetles!

FWIW. Your location and methods may vary.
Regards,
Steven


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## jbford (Apr 17, 2009)

My bees are in light shade and comfortable.

SBB with oil traps working great. The bees are cool and no beetles seen alive in the hives. This is after a bad year using AJ's and not catching many last year.

Small cell, bees in shade, herbs instead of real medicines.....I am not convinced.

(Trained as scientist. Show me hard data)


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jbford said:


> Small cell, bees in shade, herbs instead of real medicines.....I am not convinced.
> (Trained as scientist. Show me hard data)


If you move those bees south about three or four hundred miles you’ll get all the hard data you need. SHB are tropical pests, so the further north you go the poorer they do. Where I live, about 80 miles north of Macon, GA, shb are bad. South of Macon they’re awful (I’ve had bees in Unadilla, Ga)…and those folks even futher south have my condolences.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

I also use AJ traps but use Diatomacious earth rather then oil. Less messy.


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## snarky (Oct 6, 2006)

I have oil trays under a SBB. I have loads of beetles in there;
I also have a lot on top of the inner cover - I massacred them up there yesterday;they are a lot worse for me this year than last.

I lost a hive last year to SHB, and used it as bait - put an oil tray under it and blocked the entrance - forced them to go thru the oil to get in, got loads of them, then gave the slimey mess to the ants, they love the SHB larva;


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## Freon11 (Aug 18, 2009)

I have used combat roach gel with great success right in the center of the beetle barn. They never make it out you will be emptying you barns every 48 hours for a week then once a week you will actualy see the numbers decrease until you have only a couple . I try to keep from using chems if I can ,but I had SHB all over this wa sthe only thing that made a difference.


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## merdoc (May 4, 2010)

freo11 I do the same its working.Ive been using 4or5 weeks have you been using it longer?Just wondering if I should take it out for awhile.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

The bees can't get to the roach gel if you're using Beetle Barns or the corrugated sign board traps or the CD case traps. The stuff is approved for food prep areas so I don't believe there's any worry about fumes. The bees like to propolize the Beetle Barn openings but the things work well! Down here we don't ever remove the traps. If we did, the next day the hive would be an SHB farm!


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## Rob73 (Apr 19, 2009)

I was told to expect to loose 30% of my hives each year to some cause. Maybe I should try to keep a few colonies of small hive beetles and maybe I can manage to loose 30% of them that way!! HAHA! 

Why is it, the good insects you want to keep, struggle to survive, but the bad insects you don't want around, you just cant seem to get rid of?

Seriously, I don't live in an area with a big shb problem. Those that do, I feel for ya........

Rob


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## BillyH (Apr 19, 2010)

This is a good link to tell you a good way the kill SHB :lookout:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=165

Have a Good Day:
BillyH


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## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

I suspect the grub & ant crystals that can be purchased and applied to one's lawn would kill shb larva when applied in the apiary. w/o the risk of overspray infecting a hive. Some of those treatments can be applied in the spring and last up to a year. Applications around the hive are fine but those little creatures can and do fly so you might have a few today and a major infestation tomorrow. They are much worse than varroa because they are not predictable.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

I am seeing double if not triple what we had last year and only getting worse......making up cases this weekend for sure!


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

fish_stix said:


> Down here we don't ever remove the traps.


So you're the guys who're breeding the fipronil resistant beetles. Great.


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## tct1w (Jun 6, 2008)

This has worked quite well for me. I have only seen a couple this year and last year had a hive abscond because of them. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_KDPp8H6PU&feature=related


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## Daddy'sBees (Jul 1, 2010)

Very cool and informative video! I need to give it a try. I just need to find some Boric Acid.


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## LT (Aug 17, 2006)

Where do you get the "good" boric acid?


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## tct1w (Jun 6, 2008)

Larry you can get it at Websters(Ace Hardware) here in Walkertown. If you go in any decent hardware store they should have it. They use it as roach poison. I did it just like he did in the video and have only seen just a couple this year. Last year was very different. Larry Im going to call you tomorrow and if I see you next week I will bring you some.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

beemandan said:


> So you're the guys who're breeding the fipronil resistant beetles. Great.


I'm in Australia. We are not allowed to use fipronil but I too need to keep the traps in all year. Ther SHB does not rest. I use Diatomatious Earth and it is fairly successful.
I had a look a day ago and noted that few beetles where in the honey box ( not much honey = not much food, I guess) but they where in the brood box.
I wonder if it is worthwhile to trap ( I use AJ traps) in the top when there is a honey flow and at the entrance when things are a bit slow??


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

max2 said:


> I'm in Australia. We are not allowed to use fipronil


We aren't allowed to use fipronil either. Having said that, I've seen the level of infestations that exist in warmer areas and can appreciate the problem facing beekeepers in those areas. 
I don't believe that beetles can develop a genetic resistance to diatomatious earth. Fipronil is a different story. Beetles under constant fipronil pressure will surely become resistant. Then those same beekeepers who use it year round will no longer find it effective....then what do they do?
Why is it that we seem destined to repeat the same mistakes.....again and again and again and again?


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

How can you use fipronil all year long and harvest the honey?


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Beemandan; please explain how dead beetles develop resistance. Fipronil kills them fast; they do not make it out of the trap 98% of the time. Those that get out are found dead on the bottom board or top bars a few inches from the trap. But, to answer your question, " what will I do when they develop resistance?" Why, I suppose I'll use something else. I'm not in beekeeping to house beetles, just trying to make a living raising bees. The two are not mutually compatible.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

kbfarms; fipronil does not get into the wax or honey and does not affect the bees. The traps allow only beetles in, through very small openings. Fipronil is approved for use in food prep areas and doesn't contaminate by fumes or otherwise when used as directed. As Beemandan will tell you, it's not approved for use in beehives. I wish the problem could be solved by other methods, but in FL, you can have bees or beetles, not both at the same time. We've tried all the other methods, and have found that they don't work down here. Our hives, left unprotected for just a couple days, are beetle farms, and they are here all year long.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"Beemandan; please explain how dead beetles develop resistance."

Beemandan will probably also give an explanation. Here is my take:

The main problem are the 2% which leave the trap to die a few inches away. They will carry a small dose of the chemical. Other beetles MAY get exposed to a very small, non-deadly amount of Fibronil and will survive - thus the chain of resistance has started.

In agriculture we see this all the time ( tick, worm treatments) and the standard process is to switch between chemicals to minimise the risk of resistance. IPM ( Integrated Pest Management) takes this a step further. A chemical is only used when the economic threshold is reached ( eg the economic viability). Using IPM it is possible to use a chemical for many years without a great risk of resistance.

I think there is another issue we need to keep in mind: contamination of honey. If beetles can escape the trap after they have been contaminated there must be a risk ( even if it is minor) of the Fibronil getting in contact with the honey.
I fully understand that SHB are a very serious problem for many of us ( and an economic) issue for commercial operations and I hope that we can find a safe solution soon.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Fish stix - I may not understand the situation but I understood that: "Those that get out are found dead on the bottom board or top bars a few inches from the trap"
If a trap only allows beetles in and not out and if there are no fumes...etc I guess it should be " safe" .
Why is it not approved for the use with bees?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

fish_stix said:


> Beemandan; please explain how dead beetles develop resistance.


Fish…please remember, I’m sympathetic to your situation.
A very small percentage of shb will have a tolerance to the pesticide. They will survive. Guess who reproduces? The next generation will have a larger percentage that are tolerant….and following generations will eventually be mostly resistant. This is exactly why fluvalinate (Apistan) and cumophos (Checkmite) are no longer effective against varroa. We already have a variety of fipronil resistant agricultural pests. We have populations of fipronil resistant fleas (fipronil is the active ingredient in Frontline). 

Now is the time to find alternative compounds. Then rotate their use. For those periods that the beetles are at their lowest virulence give them a break in treatment. 

If you continue on your present course, you will shortly find your most effective compound (fipronil) no longer effective. You will have to find a more hazardous, more toxic replacement. It too, will lose its effectiveness. And then what? You are not only creating a problem for yourself, but for every other shb infested beekeeper. You are breeding a pool of pesticide tolerant pests. 

I’m not trying to be a jerk. This is just the way it has happened…..over and over again…
Best of luck to you.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

max2 said:


> If a trap only allows beetles in and not out and if there are no fumes...etc I guess it should be " safe" .



Beetles can leave the traps (beetle barns) but most die before they do. The pesticide of choice is intended for roaches. If you read the label you'd find that there are two modes of action. The first is by direct ingestion....these are the beetles that die in the barn. The second is by indirect contact. Beetles who survive and leave the barn will have some of the pesticide on themselves and it is spread in that fashion. Is there some contamination as a result of the secondary contact? Probably. Is it significant? I have no idea.




max2 said:


> Why is it not approved for the use with bees?


Fipronil is a product of Bayer Corp. A number of Bayer's agricultural pesticides have been banned because of honey bee concerns. The loss to Bayer has surely been in the hundreds of millions of dollars. To place one of their most successful compounds at risk by putting it inside a beehive....for the potential of making a few measley million dollars selling it legally to beekeepers....I'm pretty sure that Bayer isn't interested.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

No SHB have developed any level of resistance to Fipronil, Hydramethylnon, or Coumafus. We have tested these chemicals each year since 2001 to insure that generational resistances are not being developed. 

These products should be used on rotation every 3 months, and it is best to mix the product with a fermented pollen substitute on a 1:1 ratio.

This weakens the pesticide by 50 percent, but is still deadly to the beetles.

As far as traces in the hive and honey, Fipronil is used in food prep & storage areas because it is absolutely non-toxic to humans. We have all eaten Fipronil on our favorite foods, after a roach or other insect had been in a bait station and made it in the box of lettuce, buns, or hamburger patties.

The trace residues left by beetles that had fed and left for some reason or another (which again is not likly AT ALL, and FAR less than 20%, try an average 14 in 2,000), are far too small to even be compared to that of the food prep area with the roaches.

CD traps are safe to use in bee hives, bottom line. They ARE approved by the FDA and USDA, under emergency status.

There is a lot of confusion about whether the beetles require chemicals or not and what the ultimate threat of the beetles may be and whether or not the chemicals that bee keepers are using are even safe enough for honey consumption.

YES, commercial operations in the south will HAVE to use chemical treatments to control SHB. There is no way around that. Hives are wiped out in 3-4 days in mid-late summer. There are NO management practices that can thwart that kind of on-slaught. In heavily infested areas bees are the ones that are being erradicated, not the beetles...

Those who do not get control of beetle populations in mildly infested area will soon become breeding sites for beetles that will ultimately force ALL commercial operations to resort to chemical use, even in non-effected areas, and the USDA will eventually mandate the use of chemical control to ALL in order to get control of the spread. 

SHB is by far the greatest threat to our industry that we have EVER seen. Those who do not feel this way have simply not been infested YET. Chemicals are bad...I agree, but the lesser of two evils has to be decided and bee keepers must united in an effort to control SHB populations. 

A few years of good SAFE control efforts and the beetles could be a secondary pest in the US. Genetics are a future possibility, but wiping out hives is NOT the way to develope hygenic results, they are developed by allowing a secondary pest to lightly indrude on collonies, and even this is completely ineffective in any atmosphere other than a queen breeding operation where there are several scientists that are using these intrusions in their own controlled situations.

The chemicals that are being used are VERY THOROUGHLY tested by scientists with many, many years of experience and working environments that allow their tests to be calculated correctly.

Use common sense when treating... Rotate chemicals, use minimal amounts of chemicals to get effective knock down, without over exposure, and once you have treated use indentifiers (such as clear CD traps in the entrances of hives) to keep an eye on the beetle populations, and once the beetles are under control you can treat very lightly only when necessary.

It was first thought that the beetles could be erradicated from the US... but then the USDA realised that bee keepers were so greatly divided about chemical use that the idea of erradication would never succeed... now that we have made our bed, we must ALL lay in it.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

rrussell6870 said:


> No SHB have developed any level of resistance to Fipronil, Hydramethylnon, or Coumafus.


 I'm thinking that you may need to reword that to say that no SHB in your testing have demonstrated any level of resistance. 

The 14 beetles out of 2000 leaving the trap was based on your testing protocols. If I understand it the hive was made of a clear or opaque material and there were no bees, brood, honey, pollen or comb in it. Knowing that beetles hide in the dark and having an environment with no other attracting pheromones or smells, I'm surprised that any of those beetles left the barn.
I have seen shb infested hives, where a trap with fipronil was placed inside and the next day there were many dead beetles on the ground in front. So, I'm guessing that in real life there may be some contamination issues. 

I would like to see any official study that states that fipronil is absolutely non toxic to humans. It is allowed in food prep areas when applied according to instructions. Depending on the application, it does not come into direct contact with the food being processed.

CD cases containing fipronil are not approved under any regulations for use inside a beehive.

Having said all of that, I understand the need for southern beekeepers to have some defense against shb. And I believe that fipronil is probably the least dangerous compound. And I believe that when used inside containers, such as beetle barns, it probably is less harmful than many of the beekeeper concocted varroa treatments. AND on one other point we agree…..rotation of compounds to reduce the likelihood of resistance.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

beemandan said:


> If I understand it the hive was made of a clear or opaque material and there were no bees, brood, honey, pollen or comb in it. Knowing that beetles hide in the dark and having an environment with no other attracting pheromones or smells, I'm surprised that any of those beetles left the barn.
> 
> Our studies include 40 hives tested 10 times each and these studies have been ran each year since 2001. Totalling 3,600 individual tests, not just 1.
> 
> ...


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

rrussell6870 said:


> As to the exact levels of residual remains and registration for use...here is a link that you can read for yourself. 36 ppb (parts per Billion) in wax & 3060 ppb on honey bees.
> 
> http://entomology.unl.edu/faculty/ellispubs/Pesticides.pdf


What was the significance of the study you referenced? I don't see anything regarding registration for use in honey bee hives.
A couple of interesting paragraphs:

_Since honey or pollen contaminated
at ppb levels with newer classes of insecticides
such as neonicotinoids (e.g. imidacloprid)
or phenylpyrazoles (e.g. fipronil) are
known to impair honey bee health 

High residues in the honey bees themselves
(Tab. I) are often associated with direct kill
from the respective pesticide application, such
as with 19.6 ppm of permethrin (LD50 of
1.1 ppm) and 3.1 ppm of fipronil (LD50
0.05 ppm) (Mullin et al., 2010)_



rrussell6870 said:


> QUITE A BIT LESS than 20%.


Where did 20% come from?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

rrussell6870 said:


> it is absolutely non-toxic to humans.


LD50 for rats is 59ppm. It's toxic to rats and not humans?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

rrussell6870 said:


> It is not just a problem in the south...Their numbers will soon reach "highly infested" status in all regions and our entire industry will be in peril.


SHB are tropical pests. They do not survive well in cold. They can only reproduce successfully when the soil warms. The further north you go, the fewer survive winter and the shorter the period that they can reproduce. In the extreme south, where winter breaks are short or nonexistant shb are a very serious problem. Where I live they are much less serious. If you go a hundred miles north of me they are significantly less.
Folks all over the country will surely see some in their hives but they will only be 'highly infested' in tropical and near tropical climates....and these are the only places where 'our entire industry will be in peril'.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Hive beetle populations in 2001

http://pest.ceris.purdue.edu/searchmap.php?selectName=INBJQEA&maptype=yearly&mapyear=2001


Hive beetle populations reported since 2001

http://pest.ceris.purdue.edu/searchmap.php?selectName=INBJQEA&maptype=alltime


If you feel that you do not need to treat...that is your desicion. Our work was done for those that have lost their bees and thus the income that has supported their families for decades. I my self have given well over 300k worth of stock and countless amounts of funds and facilities to further this research in hopes of finding better solutions, whether they be chemical or non. 

For those that simply do not care what happens in the south or any other region, you really should do your own research to try to get a better understanding of how our industry works and how vital our nations southern regions are to our industry.

Again, if you are against finding better solutions, thats your choice. But we will continue our research with or without your approval.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Those maps are amazing! You can perhaps understand the Dakotas or MN or WI with migratory beekeepers, but Maine etc??

I notice my county is not depicted on the map as having shb. Any way we can contribute to the data? I do have them, in everything, just not very much.
Regards,
Steven


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

Maybe it's been so warm here in MI, but! My neighbor has two hives that are nothing but but SHB factories, no brood etc. He said he was going to put the hives down two weeks ago.
Just did a full insp on a hive that I've been nursing along at my house, killed ten and they had larve laid on the landing board, that was just in ten days!
Called him and he had not put them down yet, when I told him what was happening he said he'd do it tomorrow, I dam sure hope he does, jeez what pests.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Each laying beetle can produce 2,000 eggs... You may want to go to your neighbor with some Guardstar (40% permethrin) or some Permethrin SFR (36.8% permethrin but much cheaper than Guardstar) and offer to help him shut down those beetle factories. Break down the hives and stand them up right (on ant mounds if they are available), then poor the permethrin mixture aound the area to prevent the larva from being able to reach adulthood.

Para-Moth has been shown to kill adult beetles, larva and even eggs, when used correctly. Stack the supers on a solid, flat surface and place some chrystals on news paper between each one, then tape off the seams with packing tape and top it with a good seal.

The supers will have to bee aired out before reuse, but after a few weeks, you can at least rest assured that they will not be harboring any beetles.

Good Luck!


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

Hey folks, been doing some playing w/ the cd cases/ bait.
Tried the equal parts boric acid/honey/crisco, zero beetles.
What I did last week was took a cd case apart, popped the center part out and put some combat paste (three or four z trails) on the top lid and put it back together w/o notching the slats in sides of the case. Put the case in so the slats and opening in the back of the case are down.
Just took the hive apart and had 10 beetles in the best condition there is, DEAD and some larvae (soonley dead too). That's in one week, I know that you southern guys will laugh but this yankee has only found a couple in the past and usually if that.
I'm thinking that the SHB get into the slats on the case and can't find the way back out so they lay the eggs in the case too.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Excuse my ignorance. What is " CRISCO" ? I Googled and it comes up with " Shortening"???


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## Myron Denny (Sep 27, 2009)

That is correct, Crisco is shortening. We can get it as shortening or as oil. The Shortening is what I am using. I set my traps 5 days ago will check them Tuesday.


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## bbbbeeman (Jan 13, 2007)

max it is a trade name for a solid shortening that can be spread like butter. good luck rock.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

Before we got plugged arteries w/ lard. Now we can use partially and fully hydrogenated plam and soybean oil and just get em partially plugged, anyway the SHB is supposed to love snacking on it.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

" That is correct, Crisco is shortening. We can get it as shortening or as oil. The Shortening is what I am using. I set my traps 5 days ago will check them Tuesday.
Reply With Quote" How did it work out??


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