# Queen breeding



## honeybeekeeper (Mar 3, 2010)

I say the mini nucs for raising your own queens would work best since they would be individually isolated in one box.
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~reute001/Plan files/pMini Mating Nucs.pdf
Here is a good video! 
Instrumental Insemination of Queen Bees ...Good Luck!!


http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/020...0000000_lo.asx


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## eqnox (Nov 10, 2009)

You have three options the way I see it.
1: You could get a giant screen room the size of several football fields. Then when you know your queens are about to go on a mating flight, quickly set it up and trap your queen and drones inside the screen room. This will prevent those genetically inferior drones from "meeting" your queen. 

2: If you have some more time you could also build a apiary on an island 120 miles west off the coast of Costa Rica. Then using Russian bees frozen in amber, you can create a race of pure Russians. Splice the partial bees DNA with some sort of tropical (frog) bumble bee. I believe Dr Hammond of International Genetic Technologies has some experience in this, dealing with reptiles. However, I would wait to bring your grandkids to the island until you are sure the electric fence is properly working. If this adventure proves not to work out I would not make a sequel as it just won't be as good. 

3: Or you could accept the fact, Nature will find a way..


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Eqnox... that is certainly one of the most creative answers that i have read so far! lol. We printed it out and put it on the wall of our lab! lol. Let me know if you ever need a job!

Honeybeekeeper... Mating nuks are used to easily plant and capture large numbers of queens in one yard... they do not mate in the boxes...

Valleyman... The simple answer to your question is that queens take several mating flights in their first few days, they fly many miles away from the colony to areas that drones will saturate... the trouble with the mating box idea is that they must be in flight to mate and their instict will draw them to those saturated areas BEFORE they will begin to accept drones. Also, drones are accepted in most any hive... they will leave their own hive, and go straight in to another with no worries at all... so your hives could very well have your neighbors drones in them already. 

Queen breeders that follow Open mated practices raise drones with just as much if not more vigulance as they do their queens... ie..100 heavy hives with Drone Comb in each within a few hundred feet of the mating nuks, and in an isolated region to keep other drones away... There is a great need for diversity if you want your hives to thrive... Mutated dna is quite easily developed in only a few generations when drones are used from the same hive that a graft was pulled from... the queens that you purchased were most likely out of the same graft (thus the same hive), so all of your drones will be of the same lineage...

Buy new mated queens in the spring... get 2 from 4 different breeders... continue this practice for the next 4 years... then your neighbors will have hybrids that will only add to your genetic stock, and you will maintain a pure strain... 

PS...the first few gens of russian/XXXX hybrids are very mean... when your neighbors' queens mate with your drones next year... they may decide to start caring more about genetics as well...

About II... You need to had select drones from isolated areas to use as drone stock... we use drone comb and bring it into the lab to incubate the capped brood till it hatches in a cage, then extract the seimen from the drones... 

PS.. II is a very expensive and drawn-out process... requeening each year will save you thousands and countless hours...

Good luck!
Robert Russell
Russell Apiaries


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

*About II... You need to had select drones from isolated areas to use as drone stock... we use drone comb and bring it into the lab to incubate the capped brood till it hatches in a cage, then extract the seimen from the drones...
*
Hi Robert.
would you please elaborate a bit more on this,do you mean you collect the drone semen as soon as the drones emerge? or do you then place the caged drones in a colony for 17 days or so.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Beekuk, The reason for bringing the drone comb into the lab to hatch under incubation is simply to be certain of their origin before extracting... 

We have several different methods for this...

1. (most used) is to mark the drones with color codes identifying which queen they were produced from... then they can be returned to the hives and gathered at will when needed... Also their activities can be studied further as we have several running studies to better understand why more dones will linger in certain hives as well as what distances they will travel in mating saturation.

2. Also hatched can be used for spermifica testing... ie.. dna verification, levels of potency at different intervals of life stages, size/potency studies, color/marking studies, etc...

Keep in mind that as many as 17 drones may mate with a single queen in an open mating scenario... This could mean as many as 18 different types of hybrids can be mixed at once... There is a LOT to study!! lol. We have noted that each different gen of hybrid can also have as much effect on the quality and characteristics of the offspring as the base genetics do...


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Robert 
thank you for your imformative reply,very interesting.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I thank you Mr. Russell, anyone with the knowledge and willing to share it in understandable terms as you just have deserves to be called Mr.. 
I was almost sure that the answer that you gave me is the one that I was going to get. But I still wanted to know the alternatives. I thought that I would have to sort through several half dozen differient opinions at least, but I feel I got the whole story from you and your follow up answers just was sugar in the pie. I am going to pm you as there is 1 more thing that I want to know and I don't want to put you on the spot. Again thank you.
Brent Cook


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## slickbrightspear (Jan 9, 2009)

hey Brent you can get breeders from glenn apiarys fairly affordable. we may me able to switch queen back and forth also to keep them a little more pure


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## slickbrightspear (Jan 9, 2009)

sorry my bad I don't guess you can get russian breeders from glenns anymore they do not have them on thier list


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

valleyman said:


> I also believe that with this scenario playing out over 2-3 years I will change theirs to Russians.
> 
> In other words if I purchase or have more than 1 genetic of Queens is there any way to isolate my drones from each Queen for mating with the other, ie bee breeding cage?


In 2-3 years you'll change their bees to Russian? I highly doubt it. 8 colonies aren't nearly enough, and it would probably take 10 years if you had enough Russian drone mothers.

Also, I don't think a breeding cage would work. You need to continue to buy Russian production queens and requeen whenever the colony needs a new queen or after the bees change their queen...which I assume would be often as Russians are forever doing just that.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Something I am taking away from this valuable info is that if I want pure Russians, with as many mutts as I have close by is it would be just as good for me to purchase Queens from Kelleys 35 miles away which carry the Russian hybrids from Hardemans. So probably in the spring I might requeen with pure and in a pinch go with the hybrids from Kelleys. The pure Queens can be hard to acquire at times. I now understand that It is going to be literally impossible to have pure Russians so I will gladly accept the second best and keep my hybrids as pure as possible. As I have stated in other forums I will give the Russians every chance but will report any bad traits as well as good.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

It is possible to keep them pure by requeening with breeders and managing closely to keep on top of swarming... this will be much more cost effective than II, however, it will be much more costly than letting nature take its course... Again, the 1st gen of russian hybrids are very unsavory, as the gen continue, they ease up some... Another issue that you will run into is that russians are... "good honey producers"... Sound like a good thing??? Not so much... All bees produce honey... These girls will store it so much that they will pack it into your brood chambers causing the queens to run out of space to lay eggs and have to find a more suitable home... 

This is their natural behavior as they have adapted to living in very cold climates with a very short time period to store up between winters...

When you use them in much less harsh climates, the queens have a longer laying period, yet the foragers do not adjust their storing behavior to mach her laying needs... thus you end up with swarm after swarm after swarm...

This will give you a bunch of honey, but it will leave you with weak hives (as you continue to loose bulks of bees with each swarm, and have the month long "downtime" between each laying queen in a hive that already had less brood than it should have.. this is the reason that they are considered to be so easy to winter... less brood means less food needed over winter, excess honey means more food for the brood... but your genetics will be hard to maintain and you will find yourself "managing" space more than you would with any other breeds.

All of you russian keepers out there, please hold your hate mail... I am not saying that they are not good bees, in fact I have used some of their genetics to produce a few lines of queens such as our Tigers and Moonbeams... And as most of you know, we have taught commercial bee keeping to many russian bee keepers for a government program to save their agricultural system... Great People! They are not as fond of their own bees as some americans are though. lol.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

[QUOTE=rrussell6870; Another issue that you will run into is that russians are... "good honey producers"... Sound like a good thing??? Not so much... All bees produce These girls will store it so much that they will pack it into your brood chambers causing the queens to run out of space to lay eggs and have to find a more suitable home... 

I have already seen this as my upper boxes are stuffed full of stores, some with no room for brood in the upper deeps. It has worried me and I am hoping that they will eat out enough, quickly, where there will be room for brood as they move into the cluster into the upper deep. All this during a dearth with a small amount of feeding.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Well... here comes your next monkey wrench... they probably will NOT eat very much of that at all... actually the honey is used for feeding brood...if there is very little brood and tons of honey.... well you get the idea... Sorry.. ;-)


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Just noticed you said you had being feeding a little... stop. lol. They will move the stores around the cluster as they move up...so there will be space... I just fear a weak brood chamber ya know? lol.


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## PCM (Sep 18, 2007)

rrussell

" in fact I have used some of their genetics to produce a few lines of queens such as our Tigers and Moonbeams... "

Sir;
I can find no reference in a Google, and board search in regard to " Tigers and Moonbeams "bees, could you clarify ?

Thanks
PCM
PS, I raise Russians, and am satisfied with their performace, won't downgrade any ones choice of bees, of course I don't sell bees either.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Sure.. Our Tigers will not be available to public markets until 2012..and will only become available to universities in 2011. We have been developing the Tiger stock for the past 6 years via selective breeding for a multitude of controlled hybrids for a level of resistance to SHB (mainly less detered by slime, cleaning up slime and removing larvae as soon as it hatches)...

Our Moonbeams are very hard to produce as they require several gens of II... thus we do not sell them on the public market as production queens... We do however sell the breeders as we requeen our own stock... but they are usually spoken for by friends in northern commercial operations years in advance. They were developed specifically for northern climates and large commercial green houses as they forage later in the year and buildup earlier in the spring...they are the last bees to return to the yard (even after dark, which is where the name comes from). A VERY large amount of these queens are produced each year in russia now as a continued effort to establish a stronger agricultural system there. 

Again, I am not saying that russians are bad bees... They are they base for both of these lines of queens... The brilliant russian minds that worked with us to develope the Moonbeams are the same ones that are now back in russia producing them there.

ALL bees serve their purpose and are very important and should be enjoyed for what they are... This includes pure russians.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

When do you see the genetics that you have being available to the public, namely me?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

PM me your shipping info and I will try to send you one now that you can compare in spring. Put her in your weakest hive. NO PROMISES though. lol. And before anyone says it....NO I am not "pushing" my genetics... these queens are not for sale as I have said before...


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## habutti (Apr 20, 2008)

Please keep in mind that you can get "pure" russian stock from the certified holders of the lines released by the ARS http://www.russianbreeder.org/members.htm


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

rrussell6870 said:


> Beekuk, The reason for bringing the drone comb into the lab to hatch under incubation is simply to be certain of their origin before extracting...
> 
> We have several different methods for this...
> 
> ...


Hi
What is "dna verification"?


Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Actually, I think they are being released by the USDA-ARS which means that the goverment (our tax dollars) is doing this to try and help the survival of the honey bee. While I have been gung -ho on trying these genetics. I believe that it may not be the best genetics out there. We all know that as much good as goverment funded programs do there are many that are just led in one direction (Russians) by someone with money/influence and that may not have been the best direction. What Mr. Russell has told me so far is ringing very true. I have 5 of my 8 hive with the top deeps crammed full of honey.
I was told when I went to the pure Russians that I would have to change my way of keeping. I was expecting to fight swarming next spring, but not this. If they make it to spring. there has to be room for brood in the box around the cluster. I still love my Russians, but like my children, they are already worrying me. They are not for everyone.
My goal was, and still is to not treat. I will not treat. If they survive on their own they will be here if not I will try other genetics. There are other mutts that can survive without treatment. There is , in my opinion, a much better chance of getting "survivors" from the Russians than from the general public because they are very much controlled, while the other breeders can be less than honest. I'm going to make a very controversal statement that will not be accepted by many, but think about it. If you buy genetics from AHB areas of the country then you are only helping the AHB genetics survive the more northern areas that they can't now survive in. In my opinion it is a mistake to bring bees north out of these areas. Because they will swarm and survive, and mate with others until they are back to/or close to AHB. Most of the survivor stock comes from these areas. 
PLEASE REMEMBER THIS IS JUST MY OPINION.


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## habutti (Apr 20, 2008)

Actually, the USDA-ARS released the lines to the CRADA holder Mr. Charlie Harper, since then, lines were released to members of the association "only". Now you can be on the members list but that does not mean that you are certified. To become certified you need to send samples of your bees to the USDA-ARS lab for genetic testing, they will determine if your bees are genetically russian and you get that pretty seal on the association's web site. I bought breeder russian queens from Glenn apiaries in 2009 and still have them, but although I can tell you I have pure russians, to many it does not count because I do not have the lab's seal of approval. Long story short, you have to work with what works for you. There are no perfect bees out there, find one that you can live with and try to be happy with it... wait why does that sound like a wife; oh well.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

You have it all right, glad I'm not the only one that does his homework. I don't think that Glenn is going to have them this year. I hope they do. I didn't know until yesterday that drones would actually fly a distance and enter another hive and be accepted. Blows my mind.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

adamf said:


> Hi
> What is "dna verification"?
> 
> 
> ...


We study the dna of each production of drones.. These studies are to of course "verify" the origin, but also to test for genetic mutations in order to maintain a vital stock... There is such a thing as "Over Bred"... its important to keep re-insert native (or base) strains into ANY hybrid situation... After all those genetics are "What makes a bee, a bee". For example; you can breed a hog of significantly higher than average body weight, to an equally large sow, then find several other pairs of this nature and continue the process with them... Then you can breed the largest of the unrelated offspring... continue this process for many generations and what you will have is HUGE pigs... However, by neccessitating the body weight traits, you will certainly omit other traits, such as disease resistance, skeletal developement, aggression, or maybe even reproductive ability.

This same scenario holds true for all creatures. I have heard it termed "one-sided" dna.. and that really fits the bill... As we breed for honey production, disease or pest resistance, gentleness, buildup speed, color, or cool weather activity, we have to maintain the base genetics in order to keep a balance of the OTHER traits that we are NOT thinking about... instinctual communications, instinctual logistics, size, sight, agility, longevity, etc...


Hopefully this helps!


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

This is a quote from a very large operation in Rotorua, NZ

The web address is www.aratakihoneyrotorua.co.nz if you would like to veiw it there.

They are a huge supplier to europe, canada, and the US.

Just food for thought...


"""""""The genetic material we use was imported into NZ by David Yanke and comes from three Queen Breeding institutes in Europe, namely Lunz, Austria; Kirchhain, Germany; and Mayen, Germany. These Institutes concentrate on varroa tolerance. The Institute in Kirchhain Germany, has been trialling their Carnica against Primorsky Queens brought straight from Baton Rouge and representing all the lines they maintain there. Their data shows that their best Carnica is as tolerant as the average Primorsky, and light years ahead when it comes to temperament, productivity, and swarming. (i.e. the Primorsky swarm much more readily then do Carnica.)

Yanke’s evaluations have shown that the Carnica hybrids are much more varroa tolerant than his yellow bees. Feedback from other commercial beekeepers and my own experience backs this up. """"""" 

Again, this is a quote taken directly from their website, so please NO hate mail... lol.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

rrussell6870 said:


> We study the dna of each production of drones.. These studies are to of course "verify" the origin, but also to test for genetic mutations in order to maintain a vital stock... There is such a thing as "Over Bred"... its important to keep re-insert native (or base) strains into ANY hybrid situation... After all those genetics are "What makes a bee, a bee".


I followed-up your post because I wanted to be sure I understood what you
were saying. Your use of the phrase "DNA verification" stands out because
DNA is the same in all animals. *How it is arranged by the sequence of
it's base pairs is what is significant*. This mechanism isn't quite understood.
In fact, there are very many things that happen in heredity that we do not understand 
at the molecular and developmental level.




> For
> example; you can breed a hog of significantly higher than average body
> weight, to an equally large sow, then find several other pairs of this
> nature and continue the process with them... Then you can breed the largest
> ...



This is simple selection. A breeder can choose to breed from an animal that
expresses the desired characteristics (phenotype) and select for the same
characteristics in future generations. The breeder or you, are selecting
for the unique combination of traits that the DNA, RNA, proteins etc. in the
genotype, code for to make the phenotype. The breeder is selecting for
this from the pool (population) of breeding animals. Each has a unique
expression of traits based on the way each arrangement of DNA/RNA/proteins
differ slightly.




> This same scenario holds true for all creatures. I have heard it termed
> "one-sided" DNA.. and that really fits the bill... As we breed for honey
> production, disease or pest resistance, gentleness, buildup speed, color,
> or cool weather activity, we have to maintain the base genetics in order to keep a balance of the OTHER traits that we are NOT thinking about...
> ...



There's no difference in the "genetics" in your breeding population's DNA.
There's a difference in what the DNA's sequence produces through the
DNA's arrangement and expression of proteins that this sequence makes.
Finding the breeding animal with a desirable expression is selection. 
Using these selected animals to make offspring, and then selecting again,
etc.; that's breeding.

A breeder is akin to a collector of DNA expressions. He/She is curating the
outcome of the DNA's sequence expression. That is significantly different from curating just the DNA.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

Where are you getting the DNA work done and who does your II work?

Johnny


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Adam,

I am confused as to what you are attempting to say... It appears that you think that I have said that I manipulate dna of something... selection is the process of breeding... studying the data from the dna is quite simply a method of determining what lineages are present through the arrangement. 

The statements that you made are textbook, but have nothing to do with my posts. 

Is there something in my post that made you assume that we used dna to develope queens or something of that nature?

You stated that there is no difference in the dna of a breeding population and any other bee.... not true.... the "DNA" is the same base, but the arrangement is unique in each creature... generational simularities are determined through the study of the arrangement. I did not see it important in my original post to detail how dna is evaluated...


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## Lauren (Jun 10, 2010)

habutti said:


> There are no perfect bees out there, find one that you can live with and try to be happy with it... wait why does that sound like a wife; oh well.


We are right, you know.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Lauren said:


> We are right, you know.


Yeah, we know.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

valleyman said:


> Actually, I think they are being released by the USDA-ARS which means that the goverment (our tax dollars) is doing this to try and help the survival of the honey bee. While I have been gung -ho on trying these genetics. I believe that it may not be the best genetics out there. We all know that as much good as goverment funded programs do there are many that are just led in one direction (Russians) by someone with money/influence and that may not have been the best direction.



valleyman,

you could not be more correct with this statement....While the russians show more resistance to varrora than the bees that we have been raising here in the US since day one, they do not possess the characteristics that we use to develop apiculture practices in our warmer areas... I believe that releasing them will pose its own threats to our industry... Sure they will adapt to our needs with time, but the bees that we ALL are breeding today will become as resistant as the russians in less time than the russians will take to change to fit our climatic needs. The idea of "breeding them in" through "wild" swarms can only amount to one of two ends... 1) a complete waste of enormous funds that should have been put back into our starving economy.. or 2) the unanticipated addition of hybrid strains that will slow queen and package production (while the strains are identified and corrected) at a time when the shb has taken a continuously rising number of colonies thus raising the agricultural need for replacements.

I myself think that scenario 1 will be the winner... however I would like to know if anyone knows how many swarms are being released and where as well as when are the releases taking place...

And if no one knows the answers to these questions... then we have a HUGE problem and should demand to be informed as WE are the true breeders of queens in the US... not the USDA..
:ws


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

> they do not possess the characteristics that we use to develop apiculture practices in our warmer areas...


Mr. Russell,

Can you elaborate on this statement some? What are these characteristics? How would that change for northern US climates?

As a new beekeeper I hear a lot about mites and winter losses. I live in central Ohio where our winters are damp, cold and dreary.

I'm looking to pick your brain, not a fight!

Thank you in advance,

Tom


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Tom,

You should read back a bit in this thread to see some of our earlier discussions. The russians are adapted to a very harsh long, cold winter and short flow... thus they build up quickly, over stock with stores, and shut off very early... In the south, we rely on much earlier buildup for package production as early as feb to stock queen rearing nuks (usually when its still freezing)... this kind of build up requires both brood chambers to be filled with brood... We do not have much of a winter in the south, so 1 shallow or medium is more than enough to provide winter stores... Russians are notorious for filling not only the shallow, but also the top deep, and even some into the bottom deep, thus limiting the brood space and causing multiple swarms (which of course is part of the reason that they are so resistant to VD). 

In the US we do not have a "Like" climate to russia, thus using russians for their ability to over winter, is somewhat overkill...as carniolans are more suited for our exact climate. If you look back in this thread, read valleymans situation.

They are a great bee... but not at all what is required for package production and queen rearing (imagine trying to shake enough bees for russian colonies during feb to fill 10,000 nuks..). Hope this helps.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

rrussell6870 said:


> We do not have much of a winter in the south, so 1 shallow or medium is more than enough to provide winter stores... Russians are notorious for filling not only the shallow, but also the top deep, and even some into the bottom deep, thus limiting the brood space and causing multiple swarms (which of course is part of the reason that they are so resistant to VD)


We are in central Florida and can attest to the above statements by rrussell. We had about 75 hives with Russians coming out of winter into spring last year....very slow build up from a very small winter cluster, as they started to build going into orange blossom they began storing in the brood chambers both top and bottom at an alarming rate which led to limited brood space and plenty of swarms. They seemed to prefer packing out the brood chambers with honey rather than storing in the provided supers. At the end of the orange blossom bloom we had some honey in the supers, lots of honey in the brood chambers and very little brood to start making splits. When it got hot the Russian queens shut down, and in regards to mites they had plenty of them, oh yeah they also got pretty mean, and I dont mean just a few of the colonies, just about all of them got mean. Im not knocking the Russians...they just didnt work for us...in another climate they would probably perform better...we have gone back to Italians.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Peacekeeper,

Thanks for the post... This behavior is one that they have been forced to "learn" since their transfer northwards through europe and asia until they were sturdy enough to withstand the frigid climate of russia. These traits are their only means of survival in these types of environments... other traits that they are well known for are their excellent house keeping and tendencies to swarm constantly (as you have noted, this is due to the lack of space for the queen to lay)... 

All of these traits are derived from the stresses of living in such a frigid winter area, with so little time to build stores... ALL of which create the "mite resistance" that they are so noted to possess... By swarming constantly they have multiple breaks in the brood cycle, thus breaking the life cycle of the mites... this swarming tendency in cold climates is also the reason that they are so great about uncapping brood and removing it... and the excessive honey stores in a circular pattern around the cluster (instead of above it) is simply because they had to feed brood over extremely long frozen winters without ANY chance of foraging...

These traits are great for russia... but just as the bees in russia have adapted to that environment, so have the bees in the US... 

We have MUCH more to forage on, MUCH MUCH longer periods to forage, and much warmer winters that do not require them to "surround" themselves in honey... 

Hopefully (all fingers crossed) the beetles will have a nice snack before the government causes enough damage to one of the most important agricultural systems in the US.


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Is this constant swarming behaviour mainly because they have been brought south,do they constantly swarm in there native Russia,especially with the very long cold winters and short summers,would think if they constantly swarmed and filled the brood nest with stores(leaving very little room to build up large amounts of brood,thus bee's) they would have great difficulty building up to remain strong enough to survive the winters of Russia.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

beekuk said:


> Is this constant swarming behaviour mainly because they have been brought south,do they constantly swarm in there native Russia,especially with the very long cold winters and short summers


I have a friend here in Vermont who raises Russian stock. He tells me that they are constantly raising and tearing down queen cells. Raising, tearing down. Raising, tearing down...until they swarm. Two years ago, in a particularly wet June, they swarmed in the pouring rain.

If you want to make a good crop of honey, you need strong colonies with large populations. Here I want colonies to go into and come out of winter with large clusters. That's how they make supers of honey on early flows and how they are ready for apple pollination. Russians don't make it here. Don't tell my friend that.


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Thank you Michael,they sound worse than many of the carniolans from Slovenia.
Think i will stick with my Buckfasts.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> I have a friend here in Vermont who raises Russian stock. .... Raising, tearing down...until they swarm....Russians don't make it here. Don't tell my friend that.


I bought two hives of Russians from another friend of your friend mid-September. Both hives (three 8 frame mediums) were booming with bees, though the seller warned me the bottom boxes was nearly empty and suggested I put some feed on them when i got them home.

Easy. Put a little syrup on them and gave them a week or so to adjust to their new surroundings. One of the colonies sucked down the syrup, brought in pollen and some late nectar, filled the bottom boxes solid and swarmed in late September. The resulting late swarm queen never got mated and I combined a nuc with a Carni queen to save the hive.

Caught the other hive in time and will split that colony into some top bar hives next spring. I'll have those hives at home where I can baby them just for fun but as I expand the colonies in a new yard next spring, I don't expect to have enough time to spend babying bees so prone to swarming. I'll raise Carni queens for those. (I won't tell your friend.)

Wayne


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Has anyone had success with Russian crosses? I know of some queen breeders(Olympic Wilderness Apiary) that have open mated Russian lines (crossed with survival feral lines) and was considering re-queening a split or two with them. I live in a somewhat colder climate with a few weeks sub 0 F and a growing season of about 90-120 days.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

There are several in my area and on beesource that have the hybrid as they are called. I assume that is what you are talking about. What they are is pure Russian queens open mated. Hardemanns apiaries in Ga. has them. What I understand about them is they have their Russian operation in another county from their other genetics. which would make them fairly pure Russians. They just don't belong to the RBA. And don't test for purity. Walter T Kelley sells the packages in my area. Most like them.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

rrussell6870 said:


> Adam,
> I am confused as to what you are attempting to say... It appears that you
> think that I have said that I manipulate dna of something... selection is
> the process of breeding... studying the data from the dna is quite simply
> ...


Hi Robert, I simply responded to what you wrote. You wrote as though you were
*"verifying DNA"* which nobody does much of in any animal breeding
program yet. You state again above that the "data from the DNA is quite simply
a method..."

That's somewhat misleading. The data in breeding outcomes or results
of crosses if you will, is the studying of each unique *variation*
in the animal's DNA sequence. The DNA in one bee cross is the exact same
chemical compound as the DNA in another bee cross, or in a lizard, rat or
human. DNA is DNA. How the DNA is arranged and what the resulting
cellular and sub-cellular products result from this arrangement make
up the breeding unit's set of traits. If my description is "textbook";
perhaps that's a negative if one has something against textbooks, yet
that's how heredity works, and most importantly, it is accurate.
Breeding has so many moving parts that working from a sound factual base
will add to the chances of success.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

The USDA bee lab at Baton Rouge has a DNA test they are using to verify the purity of the Russian Bee lines they turned over to the Russian Bee Breeders Association. I don't know of any private breeders who check their drone DNA to see if they contain the genetics they want. Not sure its even possible.

The spermitheca test he was talking about is done on queens to see if they are mated properly. Not on drones.

Johnny


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Broke-T said:


> The USDA bee lab at Baton Rouge has a DNA test they are using to verify the purity of the Russian Bee lines they turned over to the Russian Bee Breeders Association.


Hi Johnny,

I'm sure they're using a test for a specific *SEQUENCE* of interest from the
DNA. The DNA in the Russian Bees they're testing for purity is the same DNA in your cells and mine. DNA is DNA.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

I have had classes in molecular biology, they are using gel electrophorisis to look at patterns of sequences. But for the average person, when we talk about DNA, it refers to the genetic makeup of an organism, which is the sequence of the base pair.

Johnny


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

opcorn:opcorn:


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Broke-T said:


> I have had classes in molecular biology, they are using gel electrophorisis to look at patterns of sequences. But for the average person, when we talk about DNA, it refers to the genetic makeup of an organism, which is the sequence of the base pair. Johnny


Hi Johny,

I'm trying to remove some of the mystery and confusion with the basic terminology.

Simply, when one is dealing with heredity and breeding (the topic of this thread)
one needs to be aware that the sequence of the genome (the order of base pairs
in the DNA of the organism of interest) is what is significant in the eventual expression of traits. 
Stating that as a queen breeder, one is "verifying DNA",
is somewhat misleading.

As you said, unless one was using molecular techniques such as electrophorisis or other combinations of techniques, 
coupled with bioinformatics etc. etc: Then "verifying DNA" would be appropriate.

Selection in breeding programs can occur without any "verification of DNA" and be extremely successfull. 
Anyone with a good eye for details and good record keeping skills can do it.
Before we knew about DNA, we were pretty darn good animal breeders. 

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Adam,

Not sure where your opposition to our efforts comes from, maybe it is because I spoke out against the USDA's *plans to begin releasing pure russian swarms in an attempt to breed them into all of our stock*... when you got upset about my concerns about the matter, you spoke highly of ARS, but didn't mention the reason of concern in the first place... now that statement has been removed, so I can not quote it...
but in any case... (and we are certainly getting off-topic here)..

I did not make notation as to HOW we conduct our studies for several reasons... 
1. I was quite sure that most everyone here were already fully aware that variations in the sequence are what we are studying... If I took this for granted, then I apologize... and I apologize for saying that your statements were "textbook", I merely meant that I assumed that everyone knew these things already... the entire honey bee genome was sequenced over 5 years ago... we use simple variations in DNA called SNP (single nucleotide polymorphism) markers. A SNP marker (snip) can tell you a lot about which bee is related to which bee. But...again, we are getting off course. When you first asked what I am calling "dna verification", I stated.. "We study the dna of each production of drones.. These studies are to of course "verify" the origin, but also to test for genetic mutations in order to maintain a vital stock... There is such a thing as "Over Bred"... its important to keep re-insert native (or base) strains into ANY hybrid situation... After all those genetics are "What makes a bee, a bee".

2. Our research is privately funded and thus the data is reserved for commercial use and I do not have the time nor desire to teach basic biology after using terms that would have to be explained... ie..if I had said... Total DNA was extracted from two sets of 10 drone A. Mellifera, collected
from Study Colony 372, (frame 119), (queen #0301993712), Russell Research Institute, MS, USA, in July, 2009. Drones were ground in 200 ul lysis-digestion solution (0.1M NaCl, 0.2M sucrose, 0.1M Tris–HCl (pH 9.1), 0.05% SDS and 2 ug/ul pronase) and incubated at 50◦C for 1 h with occasional vortexing. Proteins were precipitated using wet ice and KAc (final conc. 1.5M) for 30min, then the DNA-containing aqueous phase was isolated by centrifugation and DNA was precipitated using a final concentration of 70% ethanol and an overnight incubation at −20◦C followed by centrifugation. The resulting pellet was washed twice with 70% ethanol, then suspended in distilled H2O and diluted to a concentration of approximately 10 ng/ul.

...I think most here would have been rather unhappy with my lengthy explanation of a process that was not even of interest in the first place...

No hard feelings man, I think we just got our wires crossed.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Mr. Russell
One of my favorite mottos in life has been if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bs.
In my estimation we have just been dazzled with brilliance. I for one thank you for taking the time to educate us with you vast knowledge. I realize that a small amount of your statements are just opinions, albeit opinions that have arisen from a set of facts that you have derived from research and/or conversing with others that have an experience in certain areas. IE. Russian bee keepers, meaning the nation of Russia.
I don't think that you are the least bit off fopic as my original post was Queen breeding, and it definetly involves dna whether it be as some one stated by selecting the breeding stock by sight or as I did for several years in the seedstock cattle business using bloodlines/genetics/dns. They all go hand in hand:doh:


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

valleyman said:


> Mr. Russell
> ... I for one thank you for taking the time to educate us with you vast knowledge...


I second that!

Tom


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Thank you both for the kind words... Just trying to help.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

rrussell6870 said:


> Adam,
> 
> 
> 2. Our research is privately funded and thus the data is reserved for commercial use and I do not have the time nor desire to teach basic biology after using terms that would have to be explained... ie..if I had said... Total DNA was extracted from two sets of 10 drone A. Mellifera, collected
> ...


Actually, I like DNA talk. 
p.s. Have you ever tried skipping the DNA extraction by simply adding sperm directly to the PCR reaction? I have found this to work on everything from bacteria to mammalian cells. I have not had a need to do SNP's so your PCR conditions may be more or less amenable.


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## Bsupplier (Dec 23, 2008)

Valleyman & Slick,
We will have two different genetic lines of Russian Hybrids again this year. One with California origins, and the other out of Georgia. In addition I will be breeding openly mated queens from these base stocks in Mississippi in March. I will be taking about 30 hives south in the next few weeks and I will be working with Kent Williams. The majority of hives being moved are Russian Hybrids but also some VSH and Minnesotas. I hope to have some queens available from this operation this summer in addition to nuc's.


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## slickbrightspear (Jan 9, 2009)

let me know when you have them I may be able to use some .


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

rrussell6870 said:


> It is possible to keep them pure by requeening with breeders and managing closely to keep on top of swarming... this will be much more cost effective than II, however, it will be much more costly than letting nature take its course... Again, the 1st gen of russian hybrids are very unsavory, as the gen continue, they ease up some... Another issue that you will run into is that russians are... "good honey producers"... Sound like a good thing??? Not so much... All bees produce honey... These girls will store it so much that they will pack it into your brood chambers causing the queens to run out of space to lay eggs and have to find a more suitable home...
> 
> This is their natural behavior as they have adapted to living in very cold climates with a very short time period to store up between winters...
> 
> ...


Above is the answer, I don't think I can improve on it .


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