# The Miracle of Going Foundationless!



## MaydayMalone (Jan 19, 2012)

I started beekeeping in Spring 2012 with all frames with foundation. Last year, I replaced about 1/4 of my frames with foundationless. I'll continue this until I am totally foundationless in my brood chambers.


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## Wolfer (Jul 15, 2012)

That's pretty much how I got foundationless. I couldn't get them to draw foundation unless they needed it bad. Drop in an empty frame and it often would be drawn in a day.

Give them a box of foundationless though and your liable to have a mess. Not always, some hives will just draw nice comb no matter what. Some have no sense of direction.

I drop a frame between two drawn frames and when it's ready I move another or two out and do it again.
I try to always have an empty between two drawn frames.

I lined the face of my extractor with chicken wire to extract these when their still fresh. Cuts way down on the blowouts.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

We are starting to run a lot of foundationless natural cell combs... Works great when you remember one good comb leads to another. You will see a lot more drone comb, which is an asset for us since we have so many queens to mate. Kinda funny; many hate drones but want well mated queens. Sort of a hilarious contradiction. So far the hives with the extra drone comb seem as productive as ever.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is foundation just a marketing brain-washing idea?

Pretty much. One that started in the late 1800s and had convinced a significant number of people by the 1940s. The main selling point was promising less drones...


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## hjsmith00843 (Jan 17, 2014)

This is my first year beekeeping. I was going to use all foundation and I ordered some. But in the process I decided to go without foundation. I did use some rite cell as a flat surface for them to direction themselves off of.

So far 4 days they have pulled most of the right cell and have started to pull lots of comb on the foundation. I think the reason they started on the rite cell was because I had the queen cage directly beside it. 

So far so good!


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> >Is foundation just a marketing brain-washing idea?
> 
> Pretty much. One that started in the late 1800s and had convinced a significant number of people by the 1940s. The main selling point was promising less drones...


Is there any data out there that shows less drones= more productivity? I have never seen it. Well mated queens with good genetics are the most important factor in productivity in my opinion. 

The boys are just as important as the girls! Hives rear good drones when they are healthy and optimistic... I often see drone production increase as a function of ample protein income for the hive. A hive will not rear drones well when there is a dearth or no pollen flow. A healthy hive with plenty of protein will make drones for sure.


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## Beetastic (Apr 12, 2011)

You hear a lot of people trash talk those of us who go foundationless. I don't get it. Seems like beeks are pretty "thrifty" individuals all around. It saves money, and time, which is money. I can bang out a bunch of frames, and I don't have to fiddle with adding foundation, nor the cost. And them drawing it out fast?... Faster than foundation. They were meant to hang and daisy chain together in nature. We've (humans) got to control everything, non? 

I use Mann Lake frames meant for foundation. Pop out the little piece of wood meant to jam the foundation in, stuff it in the slot with a little wood glue, a few taps of the hammer, and I'm done with that part of it. Mucho easy. I think using all mediums is best for foundationless. I've done it in deeps, but I've had more issues with getting straight comb + having it blow out.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I use one frame of foundationless in my production hives. Bees draw mostly drone foundation and I cut it out periodically to help with mites. I use a special frame which is more stable and drawn easier and easier to cut pieces out of it.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

They will maker worker cells on it if it is in the right position in the brood nest at the right time of the year.



camero7 said:


> I use one frame of foundationless in my production hives. Bees draw mostly drone foundation and I cut it out periodically to help with mites. I use a special frame which is more stable and drawn easier and easier to cut pieces out of it.
> View attachment 9786


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

:thumbsup: I'm all foundationless here and have been on everything beyond my starter kit 11 years ago.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is there any data out there that shows less drones= more productivity? I have never seen it. 

There are some studies that prove you'll get more drones if you have more drone comb and some that proves no difference.

>Well mated queens with good genetics are the most important factor in productivity in my opinion. 

Agreed. And good weather. And good pastures...

>The boys are just as important as the girls!

The bees seem to think so. The reason that the AHB have a reproductive advantage is that we bred bees to have less drones for a couple of hundred years...


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## VARyan (Feb 4, 2013)

Do any of you wire the frames before putting them in. I put in two empty frames last year with no wire and it took about nine months before I could turn those frames over during inspections without the comb almost breaking off. Those foundation less frames were drawn beautifully with all worker cells and always had a perfect laying pattern. I'm hoping to get the brood nests to be all foundation less or close to it by the end of the season.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

VARyan said:


> Do any of you wire the frames before putting them in. I put in two empty frames last year with no wire and it took about nine months before I could turn those frames over during inspections without the comb almost breaking off. Those foundation less frames were drawn beautifully with all worker cells and always had a perfect laying pattern. I'm hoping to get the brood nests to be all foundation less or close to it by the end of the season.



This is why if you are foundationless it's best if you just stop with the habit of turning the frame where the comb is horizontal. It's a habit you can break it. You can look at all you need to look at keeping the frame vertical. I've wired a couple, I don't like how the bees incorporate the wires...


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## Wolfer (Jul 15, 2012)

I put a loop thru the two middle holes on most of mine for stability. I don't seem to get it on all though.

I write ( wired ) on top with a sharpie if it has it. If I pick up a frame that's not marked I handle it accordingly.

After the first year or so it doesn't matter, they will attach it to the sides and bottom.


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## VARyan (Feb 4, 2013)

"I write ( wired ) on top with a sharpie if it has it. If I pick up a frame that's not marked I handle it accordingly."

"You can look at all you need to look at keeping the frame vertical."

The frames that I've put in without foundation are marked and I learned real quick as well to handle them accordingly. The particular hive that has any foundation less builds around any wiring on the foundation so I figure if I put foundation less in wired I would end up with something funky.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

> They will maker worker cells on it if it is in the right position in the brood nest at the right time of the year.


That's why I put my foundationless frame on the outside. I want them to draw it full of drone comb.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

My experience is different. The bees draw worker-cell comb in the core brood area, and giant "honey storage - drone" comb in all other areas, including a crown on the top and sides of the brood area. 

This results in a brood oval that is cramped and fragile. You cannot checkerboard and open the brood unless you have the right sized comb. This results in the requirement to individual grade all frames -- a huge investment. Despite the claim that going all-medium, foundationless results in broadly interchangeable equipment, the frames are actually less interchangeable than in other systems.

Foundationless is often equivalent to the "all medium" credo, and an all-medium brood nest is awkward due to the crown constructed across the top of the comb. Foundation yields more interchangeable and usable brood comb -- as it avoids the multi-size issue of self constructed brood comb. For honey storage, it doesn't matter. I look with interest at the "trophy" pix of comb enthusiasts post -- and this is invariably capped honey comb with perfectly formed and large storage cells.


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## Beetastic (Apr 12, 2011)

JWChesnut said:


> My experience is different. The bees draw worker-cell comb in the core brood area, and giant "honey storage - drone" comb in all other areas, including a crown on the top and sides of the brood area.
> 
> This results in a brood oval that is cramped and fragile. You cannot checkerboard and open the brood unless you have the right sized comb. This results in the requirement to individual grade all frames -- a huge investment. Despite the claim that going all-medium, foundationless results in broadly interchangeable equipment, the frames are actually less interchangeable than in other systems.
> 
> Foundationless is often equivalent to the "all medium" credo, and an all-medium brood nest is awkward due to the crown constructed across the top of the comb. Foundation yields more interchangeable and usable brood comb -- as it avoids the multi-size issue of self constructed brood comb. For honey storage, it doesn't matter. I look with interest at the "trophy" pix of comb enthusiasts post -- and this is invariably capped honey comb with perfectly formed and large storage cells.


I haven't found this to be the case at all. When I pop in an empty frame in the brood nest, I get perfect worker cell comb on the entire frame. They do crown, which can make it crowded. That said, the crown of honey and pollen is smaller in relation to the frame size. But I have also seen the bees also crown in the 2nd medium and not the first in the core of the brood nest. They are extending the brood nest without a break all the way to the 2nd. I will say I am jealous of a solid brood pattern in full deeps when I see a money shot. My god that's a sweet looking sight. 

I suppose if I built up using deeps + mediums I would have the extra comb needed to make changes, swap, add extra comb, etc... But I would rather deal in the medium format. Interesting.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

JWChesnut said:


> I look with interest at the "trophy" pix of comb enthusiasts post -- and this is invariably capped honey comb with perfectly formed and large storage cells.


Invariably?

















I make no claims about the size of these cells, other than that they are all worker cells of approximately the same size. The pattern that I observed in my all-foundationless hives last year was that a new colony rapidly drew out 6 to 8 perfect worker brood combs. Once the colony reached a good healthy size, they would begin to mix some drone comb into many of the frames-- usually about a third or so per frame. Eventually they made all honey comb, and I can't really say what size that was, because I harvested by means of cut and crush. But here's one of those trophy pics:









This year they're following the same pattern, modified somewhat by the fact that there's more used brood comb for them to use.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Foundationless is often equivalent to the "all medium" credo, and an all-medium brood nest is awkward due to the crown constructed across the top of the comb.

Not sure I understand the use of the word "awkward" here, but I've seen brood nests that spanned five medium boxes before. It does not seem to restrict brood rearing in any way.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

JWChesnut said:


> My experience is different. The bees draw worker-cell comb in the core brood area, and giant "honey storage - drone" comb in all other areas, including a crown on the top and sides of the brood area.


This is also my experience with trying foundationless on 5 hives last year. I also found that the brood section of a comb would be drawn out nice and evenly spaced, but the thickness of the honey sections on the periphery varied a lot. I was constantly having to make messy corrections. Overall they were a real pain. I do find that they are a useful tool for queen rearing, brood nest expansion etc. Worker sized comb is a commodity you never seem to have enough of and going foundationless is just going to make this worse.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

JWChesnut said:


> My experience is different. The bees draw worker-cell comb in the core brood area, and giant "honey storage - drone" comb in all other areas, including a crown on the top and sides of the brood area.
> 
> This results in a brood oval that is cramped and fragile. You cannot checkerboard and open the brood unless you have the right sized comb. This results in the requirement to individual grade all frames -- a huge investment. Despite the claim that going all-medium, foundationless results in broadly interchangeable equipment, the frames are actually less interchangeable than in other systems.
> 
> Foundationless is often equivalent to the "all medium" credo, and an all-medium brood nest is awkward due to the crown constructed across the top of the comb. Foundation yields more interchangeable and usable brood comb -- as it avoids the multi-size issue of self constructed brood comb. For honey storage, it doesn't matter. I look with interest at the "trophy" pix of comb enthusiasts post -- and this is invariably capped honey comb with perfectly formed and large storage cells.


I think bees know what they need and where they need it for the most part. Here is an interesting experiment: Take several swarms or packages and hive them in boxes containing drone/honey storage comb only. I would wager that one ends up with the usual amount of worker brood in each unit. Bees rework worker comb into drone and vice versa. From what I have observed bees seem to always work to honor basic natural brood nest architecture. Much of bee behavior is evolutionarily hard wired. I would wager a well mated queen will find a way to maker plenty of worker brood no matter what as long as basic nest cavity volume and features are suitable.


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## senilking (Mar 8, 2014)

rhaldridge said:


> Invariably?
> 
> View attachment 9792


Is there not a way to get them to anchor it to the bottom or sides a little better? Seams like it would make it a lot sturdier.

I still want to try this at least some. Maybe I'll remove some of the plastic they seem to be ignoring and see what happens.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

senilking said:


> Is there not a way to get them to anchor it to the bottom or sides a little better? Seams like it would make it a lot sturdier.
> 
> .


They do eventually anchor it to the sides, and that makes it pretty sturdy, especially after a couple brood cycles. I should mention that these are frames from my long hives. I built them after building a top bar hive, and then reading lots of horror stories about managing comb attachment. I wanted the many advantages of top bar hives without the comb problems, and that's largely what I got. I use monofilament fishing line in the two middle wire holes of the deep frames. You do have to learn to handle the fresh comb a bit more carefully than you would foundation, but I like the fact that I don't have to buy or install foundation, there is no pre-contaminated wax in my brood comb, and to me it's fascinating to see what the bees build when they are not constrained by foundation. As I mentioned, once the brood nest builds up well, then they start making some drone comb, but as John says, the bees know what they need... anyway, better than newbies like me do.









You can see that the bees are already filling the drone comb with honey in the pic above.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have not had issues with them attaching comb, but if you want to solve that issue, Jay Smith has the answer. Just nail your bottom bar on with a spacer in that notch so it's down 3/8". When the bees have the comb 3/8" from the bottom, push the bottom bar into the notch all the way up where it touches the comb now...


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## jtow (Mar 30, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> I have not had issues with them attaching comb, but if you want to solve that issue, Jay Smith has the answer. Just nail your bottom bar on with a spacer in that notch so it's down 3/8". When the bees have the comb 3/8" from the bottom, push the bottom bar into the notch all the way up where it touches the comb now...


Have you tried wiring the middle holes on the frames for added stability, or is it not worth the time and effort to do that?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Have you tried wiring the middle holes on the frames for added stability, or is it not worth the time and effort to do that? 

My first problem with wires is that they are always in my way. If I want to harvest comb honey, they are in my way. If I want to cut out a queen cell they are often in my way.

My second problem with wires is that you have to put them in. Since they are an attempt to solve a problem I do not have, I don't see the point.

All you have to do is be careful not to turn comb that is not attached on the sides or bottom yet. Not a hard habit to create.


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## senilking (Mar 8, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> All you have to do is be careful not to turn comb that is not attached on the sides or bottom yet. Not a hard habit to create.


Can you turn it so it's never horizontal, or just never turn it until it's attached?

I just like being able to turn it so I can get the sun down in the cells and get a good camera view. But I'm sure I could learn eventually not to do it to foundationless frames, lol. I doubt it takes many time of doing it to remember most of the time.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

senilking said:


> Can you turn it so it's never horizontal, or just never turn it until it's attached?


You can turn it, but you have to do it a different way. You can examine the front of the frame, then drop one end until the top bar is vertical, then spin the frame around. The idea is that you never tip up the bottom so there is never a hinging moment with the comb horizontal. After a couple of brood cycles, it stiffens up and you can handle it like foundation, most of the time.


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## Rob Hughes (Apr 23, 2012)

I think the method of sticking in a couple of bamboo kebab sticks has got to be the best/easiest way to stabilise foundationless comb? Installed parallel to the ends of the frame, spaced equally from each end, through a couple of drill holes.

Rob


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Can you turn it so it's never horizontal

The comb just has to stay at right angles to gravity. You can't turn it so it is not at right angles to gravity. You can flip it end for end or even upside down as long as the plane of the comb is at right angles to the earth.


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## senilking (Mar 8, 2014)

Thanks for the answers, my question was terribly worded so I've got to clarify, lol. I've read you could turn one around and upside down as long as it stays vertical with the ground, just not horizontal. But if it's not anchored all the way around, can you turn it upside down (keeping it vertical)? Or just better to wait until they anchor it?

I didn't know that it would stiffen up so you can mostly handle it like foundation comb. I don't plan to turn any all the way horizontal, just a little so I can see better. I assume honey comb has to be kept vertical at all times since it weighs so much more than brood comb?


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

The bees will usually attach honeycomb to the frame. But don't always attach brood comb. Sometimes I will put a nail through the predrilled 
hole into the comb. Don't put nail in there before the comb is drawn. They will build a curve in the comb.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

I want to do some nucs this spring.

Let's say 2 frames of brood + 1 honey each.

What would be the procedure of adding new foundationless frames?

Should I just fill the box with empty frames or should I add them gradually by breaking the sides of the broodnest?

Should I put the brood frames grouped in the center or at one side?

I'm just about to purchase foundation that's why I'm asking and this thread has got me into rethinking :scratch:

Thanks

...forgot to mention that I use deep wired frames.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

rhaldridge said:


> View attachment 9795
> 
> 
> You can see that the bees are already filling the drone comb with honey in the pic above.


Ray, your two images of brood and large drone-honey cells illustrate perfectly the issue that develops within the Medium Foundationless brood core.

Your image shows a brood area with approximately 1/2 of the total area of very large (likely over 6 mm) cells. These become honey cells, or following a dearth are re-used for drones. 

I don't want to engage in the theoretical discussion as to what proportion of drone is appropriate, or whether the colony does not overshoot or underconstruct drone cells. 

What I do want to point out is the management issue that arises when frames are a mix of cell sizes. 
Two effects will be noticeable, and these become more troubling in subsequent years -- as you will learn from experience.
1. Mismatched cell size frames become poor "templates" for future foundationless frames -- the bees build the arc caused by the different sizes and depths into the adjacent frame, causing waves and doubling. Waves and doubling of comb make extraction difficult and time consuming. Waves and doubling cause inspection difficulties and lead to excess swarm cell production.

2. The area available for worker cell brood production on these mis-matched medium is seriously reduced. This leads to small, cramped brood ovals. To mitigate the cramping you have to inspect, grade and store each frame. This is an inventory and management issue. The brood nest has to carefully constructed from only the most suitable frames, the alternative is rapid cramping of the brood in the spring -- and the inevitable early swarm.

Thanks for posting your pictures -- as they perfectly illustrate the cautionary issue I brought up. In the future please pin the short end of a business card to your pix of frames of brood. The short end of a business card is 5.1 cm, and is a perfect over-under guage of a 10 cell sizing


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

on the issue of to many drones. I consider drones an indication of a healthy hive. I also do not see that drone production effects honey production. I believe that much of the typical belief about bees is rumors created for the purpose of marketing one thing or another sometime in the past. Last year my largest drone producer was also my largest honey producer. And that was after it swarmed. It then went on to make over 100 lbs of honey. As I see it bees will forage for what they need when they need it. Nectar is available when they want it once brood rearing has started. They do not want it for making honey at that time they want it for brood rearing and that is what they gather and use it for. Less brood less need to forage. more brood more foraging. but nothing is going to make them start storing honey until they are ready to store honey. I have had a weak colony with very little brood setting near a strong colony with an entire deep of brood. the entrance will regularly be a flurry of activity in the strong hive with complete silence at the entrance of the weak one.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>2. The area available for worker cell brood production on these mis-matched medium is seriously reduced. This leads to small, cramped brood ovals. To mitigate the cramping you have to inspect, grade and store each frame. This is an inventory and management issue. The brood nest has to carefully constructed from only the most suitable frames, the alternative is rapid cramping of the brood in the spring -- and the inevitable early swarm.

You're taking something very simple and making it complicated. The drone frames go to the outside. They are not a problem and I do not inventory, store or otherwise manage them past that and they are never in the way if they are the outside two frames.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

JWChesnut said:


> Ray, your two images of brood and large drone-honey cells illustrate perfectly the issue that develops within the Medium Foundationless brood core.


I don't understand. All these frames are deeps.



JWChesnut said:


> What I do want to point out is the management issue that arises when frames are a mix of cell sizes.
> Two effects will be noticeable, and these become more troubling in subsequent years -- as you will learn from experience.
> 1. Mismatched cell size frames become poor "templates" for future foundationless frames -- the bees build the arc caused by the different sizes and depths into the adjacent frame, causing waves and doubling. Waves and doubling of comb make extraction difficult and time consuming. Waves and doubling cause inspection difficulties and lead to excess swarm cell production.
> 
> 2. The area available for worker cell brood production on these mis-matched medium is seriously reduced. This leads to small, cramped brood ovals. To mitigate the cramping you have to inspect, grade and store each frame. This is an inventory and management issue. The brood nest has to carefully constructed from only the most suitable frames, the alternative is rapid cramping of the brood in the spring -- and the inevitable early swarm.


Good points. I haven't seen any evidence of these problems yet, but I can agree that there is the potential for such problems.

However, I'll mention that most of my colonies are in long hives, consisting of 32 deep frames if fully built out. (though they can be supered should that happen.) Among the reasons I chose this configuration is that I liked the idea of the intensive management possible with top bar hives, but didn't like the imprecision of comb buildout. If you haven't read Les Crowder's book, I recommend it. He illustrates many scenarios in which it is helpful to be able to quickly and efficiently manipulate the brood nest and honey storage areas. The management of comb is so much easier when the entire hive is on the same level and is all completely accessible without moving any boxes. As an example, that comb that is approximately 40% drone cells was moved to the back of the brood nest and then into the honey storage area of the hive. I haven't had any irregular comb in my long hives yet, but because the back frames can be pushed down the frame rest a little before pulling the first frame, there are no inspection difficulties, since the frame to be pulled can have plenty of space around it.

It is also easier to ensure that swarm preparations never get started with this hive configuration; in fact, last year I had a number of swarm cells started, and then torn down when I put empty frames into the interior of the brood nest. So far this year I may have had one swarm, back in January, because I was unaware that the hive was building up rapidly; I thought it was still winter. But my other hives are now going through explosive growth and so far not so much as a queen cup. Every few days I push the frames down and add new empty frames. I'm sure this kind of management would be impractical if I had hundreds of colonies, but I don't.

In any case, I hope you will be able to admit that you were wrong when you said that "trophy" pics of foundationless comb are "invariably" of large cell honey comb.

(As to brood cell size, I don't really care, as I'm not convinced that small cells are a necessity for TF success.)


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## matrout76 (Feb 2, 2013)

Rob Hughes said:


> I think the method of sticking in a couple of bamboo kebab sticks has got to be the best/easiest way to stabilise foundationless comb? Installed parallel to the ends of the frame, spaced equally from each end, through a couple of drill holes.
> 
> Rob


Rob,

I have heard of this method but haven't seen any photos...do you have any that you can share with comb in the frame?

Thanks!
Matt


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## Hilltop (Aug 21, 2013)

Does it make sense to use foundation in the supers (mediums) and go foundationless in the broodnest? This would provide frames for honey extraction that are much less prone to blowouts, I would think. In my foundationless frames, some were attached very well, and some not.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I have been adding more foundationless frames to my deep brood boxes yet am leaving plastic foundation in my dadants (some of which now have brood in them as well).


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Foundationless is always a good idea if you can make it work. I couldn't do it in deep frames with any kind of reliability. So here's my compromise. I really loved rite cell, but it is getting cost prohibitive these days. I am using partial sheets this year. This gives me supported comb and reliably built worker sized cells in the center, sides they can build what ever sized cells they want. I think it will work like a charm for me. I just pop in the rite cell piece, turn the frame upside down, put a line of wood glue on the side of the grove and roll in a short piece of wood skewer. This picks up enough glue to hold in the grove once it is dry. 

Here is a frame with 2/3 sheet. (I use the other 1/3 in my mating nuc frames) I will use this size foundation in the main broodnest/bottom deep(s) for reliable quantities of worker sized cells where I want them.



























Here is a half sheet. I'll use these above the main broodnest area. Room for honeycomb or drone brood to leave or cut out if I wish. Large cells, small cells, no matter. I get what I want and let the bees have some freedom to get what they want. 










These half sheets will give me the cut comb sizes I like for my method of packaging in foodsaver bags on butcher trays.










What do you think I would get(foundationless cell size) if I plopped these half sheet frames above a nuc out of a southern region, where they have been rearing brood for months, maybe have been in the nuc box a little too long and are backfilling a bit?

Compared to an over wintered Northern nuc that just started rearing brood in March?

Or if I gave a full box of these to a package or shook swarm with a mated queen? 

The results of getting foundationless frames, _reliably _drawn in Small cell depends on the size of the frame, the time of year, placement within the hive and the state of mind, brood rearing stage and genetics of the bees. 
Just because I failed at getting deep frames drawn out in worker sized cells the first time just means I didn't do it quite right. It was the _instability _in the deep frames that I had to really overcome.

These new frames should fit the bill.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri, I had a very similar thought except I use wax foundation. I was going to use 3/4 sheet instead of 1/2 just in case the bees go wonky with the comb. I know they don't make 50% drone comb so I thought 25% would more than handle what they want.


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## Hilltop (Aug 21, 2013)

I've got a lot of rite cell in my hives with drone cells all over the place. They have built tons of drone brood even on top of regular comb, which makes for very messy frames. It seems to me like they are going to raise drones if they want to. All my hives are seriously in the mood to raise drones right now. Giving them room to draw out drone foundation might lead to cleaner comb overall for me.


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## CtyAcres (Apr 8, 2012)

Lauri, that thru me for a loop, I'm not a computer whiz just an old guy keeping bees. I went foundationless when I
first started, but had comb going everywhere, so I tried in between foundation and it worked well. I went to all foundation
after that but always wanted to try again. With the cost of foundation rising that 1/2 fr idea looks good especially when
I'm looking at going to 150 hives or more. I overwinter a lot of 5over5 double deep nucs and am planning on switching 
future nucs , to a set up like MP uses. 
I use perma dent fd and I think the bees will pull new foundation on the sides like you said. If you have read "Better Queens"
by Jay Smith the bees draw fd on a wood board with a piece of fd in the middle, so the 1/2 fr should work just fine.
I split like you do also in the spring, but use OTS for queens and Jay Smiths method. Good luck with that fd/less stuff and 
PM me on how it works for you.
Lauri- you might want to alternate full and half so the bees don't go wacky with comb on you, or as you said put them in 
nucs. They draw much better I feel in nucs, remember MB uses med frames, big difference. Also use honey as feed, Jay
Smith recommends it over syrups.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

Rhaldridge, Those are 3 beautiful frames. I started last year with foundationless, mixing them in with either drawn frames or frames with foundation, believing that merely loading in all foundationless frames would result in a lot of cross comb. In your experience did you find that to be true?

Phil


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

philip.devos said:


> Rhaldridge, Those are 3 beautiful frames. I started last year with foundationless, mixing them in with either drawn frames or frames with foundation, believing that merely loading in all foundationless frames would result in a lot of cross comb. In your experience did you find that to be true?
> 
> Phil


Well, I started with a nuc, so the bees had straight templates. By the time I got a package, I was able to give them a nice straight comb, partly to encourage them to stay, but also as a template. I did get some cross comb in my medium supers up in NY, and that was probably because they had no straight comb to start with. I have a Lang setup here in FL, and starting with a straight comb in the center of the first super, they're building perfect comb again.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

matrout76 said:


> Rob,
> 
> I have heard of this method but haven't seen any photos...do you have any that you can share with comb in the frame?
> 
> ...



Here's mine:


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

We are using the skewers this year also. they look about the same. I have not noticed any delay over drawing them than I do for completely empty frames. Empty fraems are at times being drawn faster than frames with plastic foundation. That may be allocation thing though.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

This is what I got with deep frames. But they were installed with new nucs out of Ca, that were in a different development stage than local nucs. I am going to give it another shot, knowing what I know now about timing, interior placement and other factors.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri, are we looking at all drone brood?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

CtyAcres said:


> With the cost of foundation rising that 1/2 fr idea looks good especially when
> I'm looking at going to 150 hives or more. I overwinter a lot of 5over5 double deep nucs.
> 
> Lauri- you might want to alternate full and half so the bees don't go wacky with comb on you, or as you said put them in
> nucs.


You are just about in the same situation I am. About 1/3 of my numbers are 5 over 5 or 8 over 8, overwintered and ready to grow like crazy...needing lots of new frames and equipment.

If you set a box of all new foundationless frames on top a hive, they will be reluctant to venture the big gap up to the starter strips. They will start building from below many times. So a foundationless set up needs a starter full frame comb in the center to bring them up. But these half sheets of rite cell in deep frames can be placed together without a starter since they bridge that gap with foundation right in the center. I wait until the box below is quite full, yet the two end frames are not yet fully drawn and filled. Usually in spring at this stage they are really wanting to build upward, as you can tell by the comb they build on top the frames. If I give them a new box of undrawn frames, they are forced to finish drawing out the two end frames,but as they are doing that, they start building upward onto the new frames. They always start in the center bottom and move up, expanding in the center as they go. 
I give them a small cow pie sized blob of my protein recipe and add the new box of frames, squishing some of the frames right into the protein. This is a photo from last week, so it is current to the season for my area. 










Here's an example of them moving up and drawing out the foundation from the bottom, yet somewhat reluctant to bridge the gap to the starter strips above.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Acebird said:


> Lauri, are we looking at all drone brood?


Yes, all of the capped brood on these frames in post #51 is drone brood. A good mite trap frame, no doubt!

You want your drone brood to look like this:










NOT THIS!
(Photo below is off the Internet)


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Matt's image also illustrates brood oval cramping that occurs with foundationless. I've overdrawn my interpretation of the available brood oval space.









This issue is a greater problem with "all mediums" as the honey crown and the drone edges occupy a greater proportion of the available space.

Again, I don't want to litigate the issue of whether colonies know how much drone they need. My point is that foundationless systems promote very much restricted worker brood space, and this issues gets more serious over time.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

JWChesnut said:


> Matt's image also illustrates brood oval cramping that occurs with foundationless. I've overdrawn my interpretation of the available brood oval space.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And as shown here in the small area of worker sized cells you see in the very center and above the capped drone brood. I had some nice frames like Matt's, but more like this drone frame than I'd like. Some WAY worse, beyond ugly. Again, I did this my first year of beekeeping. Knowing what I know now about timing, genetics an dplacement within the hive, I look forward to seeing what kind of results I will get this attempt.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Now if this frame was in built *this *way in the second or third deep _above _the main broodnest and those large cells were filled with honey, I'd be OK with it.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

JWChesnut said:


> Matt's image also illustrates brood oval cramping


"brood cramping" seems to be a new term and it's difficult (for me) to distinguish the differences between brood cramping and "Adequate Brood Patch", which is also a new term...


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

beeMT said:


> When I started beekeeping in August 2013


I will bow to the knowledge of those with an experience well much deeper than mine, I've only been keeping bees for a few years. During that time, what has become apparent to me, bees will draw comb when they perceive the need for more comb. 

a) Weak hive, no flow = no new comb, dwindling hive, probably going to dwindle and die
b) Weak hive, strong flow = no new comb, but a concerted effort to raise brood in the comb they have
c) Strong hive, no flow = no new comb, but they will work within the comb they have
d) Strong hive, strong flow = build new comb, irrelevant of what kind of frames are added, they will build it.

The one exception to the above is a new package, placed in fresh new equipment. Like a swarm, they will build comb out of necessity / desperation, they have no other choice.

As far as using foundationless, my opinion probably amounts to 'urinating upwind' compared to most here on beesource. I plan to start 10 new colonies this summer, each in a double deep, and over time I will need 3 medium supers for each of them. That amounts to 500 frames needed. I could buy a huge pile of fiddly little pieces, then spend an inordinate amount of time assembling them. Better buy a few extras, because there are bound to be some culls, and breakage in the process. I'm not fond of woodwork, and spare time is a prized commodity around here, to say my 'real job' keeps me busy, is an understatement. I'm lucky to get one free day each week, normally it's less. To me, spending what little free time I have, assembling fiddly little bits into frames, not something I would look forward to, or enjoy.

Enter the 'miracle of the injection mold'. I've got all the frames I need for my new start colonies, sitting in boxes in the garage, ready to go. When it comes time to start using them, I'll spend about 10 seconds each pulling them out of boxes, and dropping into the supers I have ready. To get them built out with comb, I just have to wait until the first blackberry bloom shows itself, then stick a box of fresh new frames on top of a strong hive and wait 2 or 3 weeks. No point putting them on top of a weak hive, or putting them on one of the strong hives before there is any kind of flow. My time investment assembling frames is roughly zero, and I will have no worries about blowouts when those new frames reach the extractor.

I've had this conversation with a number of folks locally, many of whom started with bees around the same time we did. Some used foundation, some went with foundationless frames, and I went with all plastic. Final conclusion is, all of the hives built comb at roughly the same rate, and roughly the same time, and it didn't really matter what kind of frames were used. The bees will build comb when they perceive the need to build comb. A strong hive on a flow, will build comb on new frames, if all of the comb they have is already in use.

The other interesting point, at least I find it interesting. A couple of the folks who are adamant that they have healthier bees because they are foundationless, have recently been asking if / when we will have nucs available this spring. Apparently the 'healthy bees' all died over the winter, while my unhealthy bees on plastic frames (the real bad 5.4mm style) are alive, and brooding up. I strongly suspect, having 'healthy bees' has little to do with what kind of frames you use in the hive, and a lot to do with the rest of your management practices.

For me, it's all about the time / effort involved. When it comes to frames, I bow to the miracle of the injection mold.

Guess that makes me the politically incorrect bad beekeeper, but that's ok with me. The bees are looking ok for this time of year, and over this next summer, assuming weather co-operates, they will produce 10 new start colonies and a few hundred pounds of honey. That works for me.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

JWChesnut said:


> Matt's image also illustrates brood oval cramping that occurs with foundationless. I've overdrawn my interpretation of the available brood oval space.
> .


Also?

Interpret the cramping on this one:


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

BeeCurious said:


> "brood cramping" seems to be a new term


Matt's image shows a worker brood area of 600-700 cells. A queen in spring build up will be laying 1500-2000 eggs. She would have to negotiate her way over 4 or 5 new frames every day, desperately searching for empty cells.

Faced with that situation, the queen will lay into a queen cell, and the hive will swarm. 

Michael Bush has all but admitted this "cramping" is a huge issue when he talks proudly about brood nests extending over 5 mediums. In 8 frame systems that likely represents (6x5)= max of 30 medium frames. I estimate on two sides, these frames might average 800 worker brood cells total. (Due to the crown and drone cramping issue now illustrated by the proponents of the system.)

800 cells over 30 frames == 24,000 cells. That represent 12-20 days of open space. Unless the queen is underlaying (or making lots of drones), the colony is going to flat run out of brood space, even with a queen that is running over four vertical feet frantically searching for an open cell to lay into,.


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## CtyAcres (Apr 8, 2012)

Post#53 Lauri- you are correct on that the bees will start center & bottom and work up. I think I'll try putting
a drawn comb in the middle to get them started, and use the 1/2 frames to both out side walls. What do you think 
about that? Will it work?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

rhaldridge said:


> Also?
> 
> Interpret the cramping on this one:


That's a lovely brood frame, no interpretation necessary.
If you were running foundation you might have 5 or 6 of those. All interchangeable without a second's hesitation.
That's my point --- management (selection of frames to use in the nest, prevention of swarming, isolation (in time and space) of drone are all simpler (or possible) with foundation.

Foundationless works, no doubt, but you sacrifice certain options and ease of management.

In the future, please include the short edge of business card on the pix. It permits an over-under gauge of 5.1 mm cell sizing -- the short edge is 5.1 cm.
Running your pix through NIH ImageJ analysis -- looks like your natural sizing is >>5.2 mm


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

CtyAcres said:


> Post#53 Lauri- you are correct on that the bees will start center & bottom and work up. I think I'll try putting
> a drawn comb in the middle to get them started, and use the 1/2 frames to both out side walls. What do you think
> about that? Will it work?


Yes, but I wouldn't alternate drawn full frames and these partial foundation frames. Put one drawn full frame dead center and push the others up tight to it. 

Putting a drawn frame to bait them up is a good idea if the hive is packed with bees and you want them to move up ASAP to aviod swarming considerations. But if they have a little room to live in the existing hive , no bait frame is necessary.

I am putting the two end frames full foundation though, not partial. There's too much room for mess at the sides when frames are new and there is more room there. Also likely to build drone comb on the outside frames.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

JWChesnut said:


> That's a lovely brood frame, no interpretation necessary.
> If you were running foundation you might have 5 or 6 of those. All interchangeable without a second's hesitation.
> That's my point --- management (selection of frames to use in the nest, prevention of swarming, isolation (in time and space) of drone are all simpler (or possible) with foundation.
> *
> Foundationless works, no doubt, but you sacrifice certain options and ease of management.*


Exactly! Well said. I'll add that using deep frames adds additional difficulites. Foundationless is neat, but it is work and it is tricky until you get the hang of it. Like of like using the grid system for queenrearing. There is a learning curve you must overcome before becoming efficient at reliable results.


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## CtyAcres (Apr 8, 2012)

Thanks Lauri, Good ideas. I'm going to go with 1 drawn in the middle, 2 full fr on the outside, and
all the rest 1/2 frames. Have a nice day and a good season.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Lauri kind of summed up the best points. Nucs typically won't build too much drone comb, strong established hives during a flow in late spring or summer will tend not to make a lot of drone comb.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I notice this early spring, the larger overwintered hives with good insulation on each side are also rearing frames of workers right up to the sides of the 10 frame deeps, instead of ignoring these frames or rearing drone brood there. Seems the warmer conditions also stimulate worker brood production. Just another thing to consider when figuring out foundationless frames and avoiding too many drone sized cells.



















When you go foundationless or partial foundation, you ultimately do something that I feed is crucial for more natural mite control. _You get frames of comb from other apiaries that may have contaminated with chemicals, pathogens and disease OUT of your hives._ You bees are able to cope and control mites better on their own because they are _*Healthy*_. I think that point is often overlooked. 

Whether you believe in the small cell theory or not, remember: Although they are usually associated with each other, Foundationless and small cell are two different things.

I don't count on any one thing for mite control. Simulated swarms, good genetics, brood breaks, my brood less period over winter all contribute to my low mite counts. 

If small cell helps, I am all for it. If is doesn't help, I don't care. If I have a hive that needs a chemical treatment, I know what to use and how to use it. (Apivar)

But the only colonies I really needed to treat last fall were a couple swarms and a cutout I collected from other areas.

That's with over 100 hives. You'd think my larger 2 and 3 year old colonies would have mite loads. I've been pretty pleased they have not. But you can bet I'm keeping my eye on them.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

"This issue is a greater problem with "all mediums" as the honey crown and the drone edges occupy a greater proportion of the available space.

Again, I don't want to litigate the issue of whether colonies know how much drone they need. My point is that foundationless systems promote very much restricted worker brood space, and this issues gets more serious over time." JWC

So far my observations indicate otherwise.... Medium combs drawn in the middle of the brood nest seem to always turn out worker brood end to end top to bottom. And again perhaps litigating the fore mentioned issue may reveal some useful insight into bee behavior relevant to the conversation.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

JWChesnut said:


> That's a lovely brood frame, no interpretation necessary.
> If you were running foundation you might have 5 or 6 of those. All interchangeable without a second's hesitation.
> That's my point --- management (selection of frames to use in the nest, prevention of swarming, isolation (in time and space) of drone are all simpler (or possible) with foundation.
> 
> Foundationless works, no doubt, but you sacrifice certain options and ease of management.


I had a dozen or more frames like that in each long hive last year. Only after the brood nest was well-established did they start mixing in drone comb, and these were eventually moved to the back of the hive, where they were used for honey storage.

My belief is that bees want drones and will figure out a way to have them, foundation or not-- at least that's what I get from reading of the experiences of others. I don't get any burr comb to mention, for example. There's no ladder comb in my long hives, of course.

I'm sure foundation makes extraction easier, and management too, especially in an industrial context. But I'm just a hobbyist, so to me the possible benefits of natural comb and the undoubted benefits of clean wax outweigh any marginal convenience aspects. Plus, it's cheaper, less fussy, and much more interesting.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

My son and I buy bare root fruit trees every few years. I planted two plots of them to grow and get some size to them before I sell them. One plot I pruned severely shortly after planting, they other plot I did not. The plot that got pruned had much heavier trunk growth and new healthy branching as compared to the untrimmed group. 
But my son, got the exact opposite result. The trees he pruned did little or nothing and he preferred his untrimmed group. 

The difference was: I fertilized and watered my trees over the summer months. I also planted them in better soil(Composted horse manure)

My point is, results are only really valid when circumstances are identical. Otherwise they are just opinions based on personal experience.










Just since the subject is supposed to bees, here is that same tree plot with a cover crop of buckwheat for weed suppression. Planned to bloom just after the main flow ended. LOL, everyone thought I just had a weed problem


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Actually, after thinking about it, how does foundation prevent "brood cramping?" I've seen plenty of pictures of foundation combs with the same honey dome and pollen bands over the brood area as was shown in Matt's comb.


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## Hilltop (Aug 21, 2013)

I have an awful lot of "brood cramping" and foundation. When they want to raise drones, I don't think anything will stop them.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >Is foundation just a marketing brain-washing idea?
> 
> Pretty much. One that started in the late 1800s and had convinced a significant number of people by the 1940s. The main selling point was promising less drones...


Less drones is true in my experience - not true in the US?
Also straight foundation, less breakage of foundation when extracting, easy to inspect and more honey - in my experience.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

max2 said:


> Less drones is true in my experience - not true in the US?
> Also straight foundation, less breakage of foundation when extracting, easy to inspect and more honey - in my experience. (With foundation)


My experience also. That's why I really love the rite cell foundation...until I have to pay for it inch: To be able to just pop a sheet into a frame is very easy and really the time it saves and the reliable results are worth the $1.00 per frame cost. But when you're needing 30 or 40 cases of 100, that's a chunk of change to put out. 
The closer I get to having all my equipment built, including frames, the more I can 'fool around' with interesting stuff like foundationless or partial foundation frames. I have no doubt it can be done reilably. But the instability in deep frames will always be an issue. A half sheet of rite cell is _just_ the cure for that ill.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri, I don't use foundationless frames but my life experiences have warn me that the fastest way to a solution doesn't always end up the fastest way.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Change one thought and a lot of this will be clear. The large cells are honey storage cells that the bees also happen to raise drones in. Now think in terms of brood nest architecture and picture it as a bell. The worker brood is in the center of the bell. Honey is stored in the large cells along the bells sides.

The amount of large cells a colony produces is genetically determined. It will usually average about 1/3 of the total comb in the colony. The lowest amount I've seen was 10% in a feral colony. The highest amount I've seen was about 40% in a colony in the wall of a building.

A.M. Saharensis produces the lowest natural amount of drone size cells averaging 10 to 20 percent.

Many of the problems of foundationless can be avoided by putting empty frames near - but not in - the center of the brood next. Bees tend to draw out drone cells in frame positions 2 and 9 of a 10 frame brood box. They tend to draw out worker cells in frame positions 4 and 7.

As noted numerous times in this thread, a huge colony will do the best job of filling a frame with comb in the least time.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I find it interesting that little comment has been made about my photo of the frame that is entirely worker cell size! This was (mostly) foundationless as well. I suppose because the photo doesn't show any brood in it.

To clarify, the photo with capped brood was added several weeks before our usual swarm season, this was when Drone brood were starting to be raised.
The hive had been wintered in a single deep 10 frame box. This frame was inbetween two frames that had been moved up into a new box. They were the two outside frames from the box below, as per my "Opening the Sides" method. So the hive was wanting more drone comb at the time as they were still building up. If I had not used a strip of foundation and just used ice-cream sticks instead, the comb would have been mostly drone comb as Lauri's photos show. Frames like this I would move to the outside of the brood nest.

The photo of the frame that was entirely worker brood was in the same box, but it was an outside frame! It was drawn several weeks after the other frame. By that stage the hive had all the drone brood it wanted and was concentrating on raising worker brood (this was around swarm season.)

Looking at the comb in one of my long hives (on the weekend), they have drawn the comb in thirds. Most frames are two thirds worker cell and the last third (which is at the back of the hive) is drone cells. These drone cells have been filled and capped with honey (as we are going into winter.)


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Foundationless works, no doubt, but you sacrifice certain options and ease of management.

I have 40 years of experience using foundation (I still use some because I don't have enough time to make all those foundationless frames). I have about 14 years of experience doing foundationless. For ease of management, I would take foundationless any day. I don't see any sacrifice at all other than when buying PF120s, I don't have to build the frames...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> I don't have to build the frames...


Michael do you not use frames with foundationless and if you don't is the harvesting method locked into crush and strain or can you put them in an extractor with just a top bar?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael do you not use frames with foundationless

I have 3,000 foundationless frames I'm using.

> and if you don't is the harvesting method locked into crush and strain or can you put them in an extractor with just a top bar? 

I only have two top bar hives currently and I crush and strain or do cut comb with them. I extract the foundationless frames all the time.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> I extract the foundationless frames all the time.


OK so when you said you don't have to make frames for foundationless it is because they are already built and you don't have to add foundation to them.

Do you feel it is worth making a mechanical clip at the bottom bar when the bees don't attach the comb to support it in a radial extractor?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I just got an idea. What if you shot a row of finish nails with a air nailler through the bottom bar? Do you think the bees would build comb around it as they draw it down. It would be like vertical wires only near the bottom. Even if they didn't quite attach the comb to the bottom bar the nails would support the comb.


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

Michael Bush;1079098
All you have to do is be careful not to turn comb that is not attached on the sides or bottom yet. Not a hard habit to create.[/QUOTE said:


> It was a challenge for about a year to remember to turn the frames side to side when only attached on top, especially when I have a mix of frames. Now I turn properly without even thinking about it and have not broken a comb in a year. It doesn't take long for them to attach enough areas where you can turn them up to check the other side.
> 
> In my second year I began to increase hives in spring and they had foundation frames. I stopped using foundation after that and have never been sorry. I've saved hundreds of dollars going foundationless, as I now have more than tripled the amount of frames (deeps and mediums) since then.
> 
> I get cross comb in supers sometimes, but as I extract I am fixing those frames, not hard because I'm doing it after bees out of the boxes. I use the cross comb for cut or chunk honey, or turn and rubber band in if it isn't too bad.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>OK so when you said you don't have to make frames for foundationless it is because they are already built and you don't have to add foundation to them.

No. What I am saying is that the only reason I don't do 100% foundationless (and am using about half PF120s) is because I don't have to build the PF120s. I just take them out of the box and use them. They are one piece plastic frames with foundation. If I had time to build frames, I'd probably be closer to 100% foundationless. Its a lot quicker to build a foundationless frame than a wood frame with wired wax foundation or even one with plastic foundation.

> Do you feel it is worth making a mechanical clip at the bottom bar when the bees don't attach the comb to support it in a radial extractor? 

Why? I have no problems extracting. IF you have issues with them attaching the bottom (I don't) then put your frames together with the bottom bar held down (in other words not in the notch, but 3/8" or 1/4" lower) and then after the comb is drawn within 1/4" of the bottom bar push it the rest of the way into the notch.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> >Foundationless works, no doubt, but you sacrifice certain options and ease of management.
> 
> I have 40 years of experience using foundation - I have about 14 years of experience doing foundationless.


Criminy! Just how old are you? I thought you were younger than me, but now I'm not so sure, unless you've been beekeeping since you were a wee lad:scratch:


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## Hilltop (Aug 21, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> Why? I have no problems extracting. IF you have issues with them attaching the bottom (I don't)


Is that with only medium frames? Would I be corect to assume that there is more trouble getting the bottom attached with deep frames?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Criminy! Just how old are you? I thought you were younger than me, but now I'm not so sure, unless you've been beekeeping since you were a wee lad

Well, don't add the 40 and the 14 together. The experience overlaps. I've had foundation from since I started until now (40 years) and foundationless for a year when I started (and knew nothing about cell size) and then for the last 13 years so that's the 14. And yes, I was not so old when I started although not a "wee lad"...

>Is that with only medium frames? Would I be corect to assume that there is more trouble getting the bottom attached with deep frames? 

I have not done much foundationless on deeps or Dadant deeps, but I have done a little of both I did not seen any difference in attachments. In the brood nest they do not tend to attach the bottom. My guess is they want the comb to vibrate when they dance. Honey combs they tend to attach. Sometimes at the last minute, but they usually attach some of the bottom and some of the sides. That's all I need to extract them. Of course the deeps would have less support than the mediums even if they are attached, but I know people doing foundationless deeps and extracting who say they don't have issues.


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## Connie1 (Jun 19, 2013)

How would you start transitioning to foundationless when you currently have all plastic foundation in the hive right now?


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## Wolfer (Jul 15, 2012)

Connie1 said:


> How would you start transitioning to foundationless when you currently have all plastic foundation in the hive right now?


If you have all worker cell foundation now the first thing they'll want to draw is drone comb. You might as well put it where it goes. It should be the last brood frame on the edge of the nest. Some people say frames 2 and 9 I always figured 3 and 8. Once these are drawn you can put one near the center of the brood nest. It should be drawn mostly worker but will have cells of all sizes on it. The queen will lay workers in the small cells but most of the big cells will be used for food storage. 

Repeat as needed. Your existing frames can be moved up or to the outside edge. As the brood hatches out they'll fill the cells with honey.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thought I'd show you how they are working the new frames of partial Rite cell foundation. 

In the brood nest or directly above it, they draw out the foundation first. If the frames are placed on the outside edges, they draw out the foundationless part first, probably since they are wanting large cells to rear drones right now and are bring in nectar. 

How they move onto it and start it depends on it's placement within the hive.

No messes yet


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## senilking (Mar 8, 2014)

So they chose to pull the plastic instead of making new foundationless comb? Now I want to catch a swarm and put it in a hive with half plastic and half foundationless and see what happens.


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## CtyAcres (Apr 8, 2012)

Thanks Lauri , for the pics. They are indeed VERY, VERY interesting!!!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

senilking said:


> So they chose to pull the plastic instead of making new foundationless comb?


Not what I see in the second and third photo.
I think you are on to something Lauri.


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## senilking (Mar 8, 2014)

Acebird said:


> Not what I see in the second and third photo.
> I think you are on to something Lauri.


Third picture didn't load last time, lol. And I didn't look at the second one closely, I assumed the plastic was pulled since I saw wax, but it looks like it was just started. Was it pulled on the bottom where the bees are covering it?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The wax is tan and the foundation is black so it is not hard to see what came first.


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## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

I would like to go foundation less but I'm afraid my bees would start having varroa and tracheal mites.
Far as I know I haven't had either long as I have been beekeeping. I do think it must be because of the forced small cells from the 4.9 foundation I've used all along, except for the one TBH. 
If even the small cell bees build comb to their own devices it will be bigger and bigger maxing out at what? about 5.4mm the standard regular foundation cell size, creating more opportunity for varroa to get a foot hold; additionally then creating bigger bees with bigger trachea for those mites to enter.
I know they won't just get bigger only. They range in size according to what the bees deem necessary. 
I will say the only checking for varroa I've done is examining a dead be under magnifying glass every now and then and haven't seen any. I've also used the grid monitoring bottom board and haven't seen any.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Your brood cell size is not apt to change much if you go foundationless. If you want to start putting in foundationless to try, do it and evaluate how you like weak frames that blow out in the extractor if you are not more careful and fall apart when inspecting until you learn to handle them carefully, by all means go ahead. Just understand the learning curve.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Starting my 3rd year beekeeping, so I'm starting to pull dark frames, punching out the comb, nailing the little strip perpendicular at the top, pulling all the wire out of the frame, and using it as foundationless.

When removing comb or honey, that wire does get in the way. If the bees are cooperative with the foundationless, I am really looking forward to cut comb honey, or removing old comb, without having to maneuver around the wires.

About regression: cell size incrementally gets smaller?


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

You foundationless people are KILLING ME. Now I've got to start wiring frames so I can try this foundationless thing. Foundation is expensive and not having to buy that appeals to my tightwad side.....

I did find some 24" bamboo skewers. I may try putting two of them in, running parallel to the top and bottom bars and see if that works as well as wiring will. Sure would be a lot faster than wiring.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Wiring? I'm not wiring my foundationless. I'm not chopsticking them either. They're going au naturale, just like mother nature intended.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Brad Bee said:


> I may try putting two of them in, running parallel to the top and bottom bars and see if that works as well as wiring will.


As soon as they hit the horizontal 'divider'( Anything larger than wire) they will switch to drone sized cells. You're better off with two vertical skewers. 
I've Been there, done that. Won't do THAT again.
I'm sure I have a photo around here ..somewhere....


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Here are a couple pics. Seems anytime they come across a change horizontally, it's their sign to switch to large cells. UGH. And they say a nuc won't make drone cells. This is a mini mating nuc. You can see how the frame was constructed after I hacked out the drone comb. This is why I only do vertical skewers or a partial sheet of foundation in the center..running top to bottom. 




























I cut out the drone comb on the bottom.. and lookie what I got out of the deal after I made this hive queenless for a few days. Do you see it?










Here, I'll just rub it in a little










Oh yeah, the back side :










Makin' Lemonaid out of the lemons  

My version of a walk away nuc is to get the queen cells drawn for a few days in a big strong queenless hive , THEN make up the nucs with prime frames. Although you will get fewer queen cells, _*Queen cells are better fed *_in the larger population of a big queenless hive than the single nuc.

To see photos and info on this, read this thread. It shows how I made a simulated swarm by moving the big established hive away and leaving the queen at the old location to recieve returnign foragers. That left me a big queenless hive for breaking up into nucs:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?295505-Best-glue-for-disk-marking


I'm pushing it trying to rear queens quite this early..this is just a test run. But weather is decent and I have ton of drones. Made the nuc up stronger than I would in May.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

My god those are nice queen cells!


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Lauri said:


> As soon as they hit the horizontal 'divider'( Anything larger than wire) they will switch to drone sized cells.
> I've Been there, done that. Won't do THAT again.



Thanks for the advice Lauri. I will skip that step then. The only reason I plan to wire is to keep from losing comb when inspecting the hives. You know, turning it the wrong way and it falling out..... and also to keep from having blowouts in the honey extractor. Do the bamboo skewers placed from top to bottom support them enough to serve the same purpose?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Yes, bit I don't use bamboo, they are a little thin. I use food grade wood skewers. Corn dog sticks in deeps or caramel apple sticks in mediums



















This is kind of a messy frame, left in the hive all winter.










I buy them at Cash & Carry foods. About $3.00 @ 100 pack. I have a local store close by.

https://www.smartfoodservice.com/


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Ohhh, I could just buy a bunch of caramel apples and eat them. Good advice! 

We have a "Fast Food Fixin's" store here, I will check and see if they have them.

I may try putting a half a sheet of foundation in them like you did with the 2/3 sheet of plasti-stuff.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I've found two vertical bamboo skewers to be just as strong as wired frames and the attachment to the skewers is much stronger than to wires.

I have also tried a sheet of foundation in the middle section with ice cream sticks on the outer sections for comb guides. I am not so happy with these frames, as the comb is not as straight or consistent as the ones with a foundation strip across the whole length of the frame. Wax foundation can get a bit of a curl happening and comb ends up being built more on one side, as the foundation curls away from the skewer.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Lauri said:


> I buy them at Cash & Carry foods. About $3.00 @ 100 pack. I have a local store close by.
> 
> https://www.smartfoodservice.com/


I would have pictured you cutting up scraps into little square sticks instead of buying those.


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## Beetastic (Apr 12, 2011)

> Thanks for the advice Lauri. I will skip that step then. The only reason I plan to wire is to keep from losing comb when inspecting the hives. You know, turning it the wrong way and it falling out..... and also to keep from having blowouts in the honey extractor. Do the bamboo skewers placed from top to bottom support them enough to serve the same purpose?


This is totally unnecessary. I turn my comb over all the time. 1 year old comb is very solid, and if it's connected to the frame at a few places, it's pretty darn solid. I've been all mediums + foundationless since I started 4 years ago. Now of course you can't turn over fresh comb that's not connected to the frame (or really any white comb for that matter), but I don't find the need to. Just take a quick peek by turning it instead of flipping. 

I extract my foundationless all the time with my spinner and rarely have blowouts. The blowouts that do happen; I can usually see them coming. Just ease the throttle up until it balances and then walk away. I think I am going to have to make a video and post on youtube to put this to bed  Plus I can choose cut comb on any frame I like. I find that not many people sell comb around my area, and when customers come across it, they are willing to pay the premium I charge. 

Also, I've been doing some deeper inspections to try and avoid swarming by catching cells early, and I've gotta say, the patterns are looking great. I am not seeing any "crowding" from the honey bands. Both bottom mediums are solid worker patterns, with the third medium housing most of the drones.


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## senilking (Mar 8, 2014)

Beetastic said:


> Plus I can choose cut comb on any frame I like. I find that not many people sell comb around my area, and when customers come across it, they are willing to pay the premium I charge.


This is one of the main reasons I kind of want to try. I started beekeeping because it was something different to learn from. Foundationless falls in the same category. And there are people that ask about comb honey.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Beetastic said:


> This is totally unnecessary. .


We are talking about deep frames, not mediums.

The stability issue difference between them is significant.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

> We are talking about deep frames, not mediums.
> 
> The stability issue difference between them is significant.


Totally agree. I use a different method. It makes each section stable, even in the extractor, and bees fasten it to the frame better in my experience.


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## Beetastic (Apr 12, 2011)

> We are talking about deep frames, not mediums.
> 
> The stability issue difference between them is significant.


Totally agree. The image you posted with the frame of capped honey + stick looked like a medium to my eyes. I tried foundationless with deeps, and it was a hassle, hence the move to mediums.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

My long hives are all deeps, and I've had no problems handling comb. I do "wire" them using monofilament fishing line, and the brand new comb is a bit floppy. Once it stiffens up, no problem. It's only brood comb that I'm inclined to tip up. After a couple brood cycles, it's pretty sturdy, so it hasn't been a problem for me


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

I have heard it said that there is a preponderance of drone comb when going foundationless, but I don't believe it. I tossed a medium foundationless frame in a deep box, and got 100% worker cell inside the frame, and about 2.5" of comb under the bottom of the frame that was about 50% drone, 50% worker.

Another frame that I put in later, and caught in time, was drawn nearly to the bottom of the medium frame, and it had about 10 drone cells, the rest were workers.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I think that there are folks that would like as few drones as possible. There is probably more drone in foundationless then with foundation, but what is the correct number, I don't know? I would trust the bees to make that decision over me.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I saw a presentation by Dr. Clarence Collison where he gave colonies nothing but drone foundation and other colonies nothing but worker foundation. They both raised the same number of drones and the same number of workers. They just reworked what they had to, to raise the brood they wanted and filled the rest with honey. How much they build without coercion depends on the time of year and the status of the colony. If they are strong with plenty of bees and it's spring they will raise as much as 25% drones. If it's summer the number drops and in fall it drops to nothing. In a dearth some bees will be more aggressive at throwing all the drones out and removing all the drone pupae. The number of drones varies and the need to build drone comb varies.

Levin, C.G. and C.H. Collison. 1991. The production and distribution of drone comb and brood in honey bee (Apis mellifera L.) colonies as affected by freedom in comb construction. BeeScience 1: 203-211


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

I can see the logic of the bees reworking comb to produce the number of drones THEY want. Their instincts guide them there. But I have also seen first-hand (yesterday, same day as I was reading Lauri saying that a horizontal spurs drone comb) that they build MUCH more drone comb after the horizontal barrier. In my case, it was a medium frame in a deep box. Something triggered that build. Would it have been the same ni late summer? Don't know. But I DO know how to find out, in the unlikely even that I have any deeps going this summer.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

They often build it to put honey in it.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

In my long hives, I tend to move comb with any substantial amount of drone-sized comb to the edge of the brood nest, and usually the bees fill it with honey, once they have enough drones.

I have a notion that not having enough drones is a source of stress for a colony, and I think stress should be avoided whenever possible.


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> They often build it to put honey in it.


Gotcha. a friend told me yesterday his grand-daddy killed all the drones he could on a regular basis. Does anyone else do this? Seems to me like it would just prompt a hive to make more, as they seem to want a certain balance that we may not understand.


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## beeMT (Jul 4, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> I saw a presentation by Dr. Clarence Collison where he gave colonies nothing but drone foundation and other colonies nothing but worker foundation. They both raised the same number of drones and the same number of workers. They just reworked what they had to, to raise the brood they wanted and filled the rest with honey. How much they build without coercion depends on the time of year and the status of the colony. If they are strong with plenty of bees and it's spring they will raise as much as 25% drones. If it's summer the number drops and in fall it drops to nothing. In a dearth some bees will be more aggressive at throwing all the drones out and removing all the drone pupae. The number of drones varies and the need to build drone comb varies.
> 
> Levin, C.G. and C.H. Collison. 1991. The production and distribution of drone comb and brood in honey bee (Apis mellifera L.) colonies as affected by freedom in comb construction. BeeScience 1: 203-211


that is interesting
by any chance do you have a copy of the article? as i cannot find it online
thanks


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

With the partial foundation frames I _expect_ the bees will make large cell comb in the foundationless ends.
Even though it is newly drawn, it is totally stable in this deep frame. I can turn it anyway I want to to inspect without the soft comb bending or falling out. Here are three photos:

Just drawn & being filled-1/2 sheet foundation:










Fully drawn and filled with brood-3/4 sheet foundation:










And later in summer this is what I expect to see in the frames above. You can see the center is a cut out, held in with cage wire. This frame was the inspiration for my partial foundation design. You can see instead of drones on the sides it is now filled with feed:










With a solid sheet of foundation, a full frame of brood is nice ..right up until the flow. WIth large cells near the brood, perhaps they will be lured into putting available feed there instead fo clogging up worker cells.










The behavior of the bees concerning swarming, tolerating periods of dearth and overwintering with more feed stored near the broodnest area will be interesting. 
With large cells near the brood available to fill instead of _backfilling_...with large cells near brood filled with feed to keep broodnest from being empty and dry during periods of dearth...and of course overwintering feed access in more areas of the hive. Will it keep them in the bottom box instead of moving up to nest near the feed in fall? 

I really can't see any downside to this, but can see many positive possibilities. 
I am trusting the bees not to be so stupid thay will rear 50% drones in the hive. It's just not going to happen.

If there ends up being more drones than I want or I want to place a frame in the brood area, all it takes is a quick run of a knife or hive tool around the foundationless ends to remove the large cell and let then build new comb. The center is _always_ worker sized cell and can be used anywhere in the hive.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

Some pictures with foundation less, no wires, just empty frames:


























A miracle indeed


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>by any chance do you have a copy of the article? as i cannot find it online

I have not been able to find it online either. I was only aware of it because he gave a presentation on it.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Dr. Collison sent me a copy a few years ago when I emailed him looking for it.


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## firefly22 (Jun 6, 2013)

Ray, Congrats they are doing a beautiful job. I hope to have the same in my hive one day i am just now starting to change over put 2 empty frames in yesterday. :thumbsup:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The Christian image illustrates the management complication that foundationless presents.

My management is not complicated. I only move them if I happen to see them. The only work is the split second decision of where to put the frame when I put it back in the hive.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

I don't understand the problem in management. Can you please explain more? For me foundation less was a no choice option as wiring frames and adding foundation to them was on the bottom on my priority list. Top priority was making queens and boxes on the little time I had.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Can you please explain more?

If I happen to have a frame of drone in my hand that was from somewhere other than the sides, I put it on the outside by the wall. If I have a drone comb on both walls, I put it next to those. If it's worker brood I put it back where I found it. The only problem with putting it back in the center (and it's not THAT big of a problem) is that when they backfill it with honey it will break up the brood nest. Bees don't usually put drone in the middle UNLESS you put an empty frame in the middle (which is a good way to get comb drawn) and that is because of the sequence of events, not because of where they want the drone. In a normal situation they start by building worker comb and as they get to the edges they may build some drone. If instead that empty comb is being fed into the center when they decide they need drones, it ends up in the middle of the brood nest. The solution is simply to put it back on the edges instead of the middle when you happen to be in the hive.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> (and it's not THAT big of a problem)


Lets face it Michael, you can be a acebird and the bees will fix it.

JakeDatc, I don't understand your comment. Do you have a personal beef?


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

After reading this I am going to try foundationless again. I think that I may do better this time of the year. When I first tried it in early Spring I got nothing, and I mean nothing ,other than drone comb. I already had tons of drone in my hives. So many that I spoke with another local beek about it and he said he had as well and we both commented that we saw large drone populations in the late winter when we generally see few drone numbers. My frames were put in place after this drone boom yet I still got drone comb and I was disappointed. I do believe the bees draw comb faster without foundation. I don't think (completely my theory so don't ask for "studies") that bees see foundation as natural and they have to adjust to building off foundation. When given just a strip or an edge they just go to town doing what they have always done. That is why I feel they build faster. Maybe like telling a pitcher to pitch a ball off level ground. It will take him a while before he throws strikes. He will do so but it will require a lot of adjusting.
Hopefully the new attempt will produce better results.
As for pros and cons of drone comb (over)production I think this is a no brainer. If there are enough drone then I don't want more. Drone brood is a favorite for varroa. This is one of the few things in beekeeping that has been studied and is a proven fact. Even some worker brood ,if it is from a hive that hatches out worker brood a day or so earlier than "normal" will not support varroa reproduction/life cycle. That's one of the main reasons that AHB are not botherd by varroa the way our domesticated stock is.
I am looking forward to trying foundationless again. Stuffing frames with foundation is a PIA. It will be a bit tough due to there being almost no flow so I'll have to see how things go. I may dedicate a hive or two to building comb by feeding through the summer and keeping it supplied with enough young bees/brood. Not a huge investment for nice drawn comb.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Keep us posted on progress the next time around. I have no problems getting the bees to draw beautiful foundationless drone comb but my experience with worker comb was more drone than I want and too much of a mixture. Granted I perhaps needed to have more frames of dedicated drone cells before the bees would draw dedicated worker size in the brood nest. I do find a mixture of drone and worker cells on frames to be a negative factor. Some frames with scattered patches of drone cells, next to another frame with its own scattered patches of drone cells get to be alternating interlocking patterns that requires pulling frames very carefully. It sure does not make queen or queen cell finding easy either. As I get more years on my mostly wax foundation the re purposed drone cells seem to interrupt the laying of large patches of evenly aged brood. The queens seem busy one finger typing and running around patch to patch to lay. The borders of the brood nest get to be rather poorly defined. Maybe i need a reset! I will have to meditate some more on this whole issue; in the meanwhile I am making some honey and not having trouble keeping the bees alive. In the north we are blessed with no hive beetles, no wax moths to speak of.

I think different hive management practices are impacted differently by scattered drone that could be part and parcel of foundationless frames. Climate too.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Update on my partial foundationless deeps:
Early spring, drones where I want them and when I want them:









(You'll notice there are no messy drone cells on the top or bottom of the frame.)

Below: Current photo during the main flow. Honeycomb for harvest or a bounty of feed right next to the brood. Notice NO backfilling in worker cells.











Solid worker brood in the center..every time.




























I don't know what has been most rewarding this year. Rearing some awesome queens or figuring out how to make the bees draw comb exactly like I want.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> >Can you please explain more?
> 
> If I happen to have a frame of drone in my hand that was from somewhere other than the sides, I put it on the outside by the wall. If I have a drone comb on both walls, I put it next to those. If it's worker brood I put it back where I found it. The only problem with putting it back in the center (and it's not THAT big of a problem) is that when they backfill it with honey it will break up the brood nest. Bees don't usually put drone in the middle UNLESS you put an empty frame in the middle (which is a good way to get comb drawn) and that is because of the sequence of events, not because of where they want the drone. In a normal situation they start by building worker comb and as they get to the edges they may build some drone. If instead that empty comb is being fed into the center when they decide they need drones, it ends up in the middle of the brood nest. The solution is simply to put it back on the edges instead of the middle when you happen to be in the hive.


I don't remember what I did with each hive, in any case tons of manipulations(making nucs and giving them frames) so it could be that the frame in cause was at the edge at first and then I moved it on the center. I don't know. I don't have that much of a drone comb as I have nucs and the donor colonies are weakened and probably not that eager to raise drones. I also believe in leaving the bees as much freedom as possible in a movable frame hive, including the part with letting them raise as many drones as they please.

But anyway, I have 0 experience in making honey.

The funny thing is that I like that backfilled drone frame, that's why I posted it. 

A thing that I don't like about foundationless is that it needs much more care. I have over 30 nucs and it's OK for me but I couldn't imagine a commercial doing this. Would he?

An idea came to me on adding the second box without worrying that they will mess up: add the box with empty frames bellow the brood nest. If the frames are vertically aligned they should build it right(maybe add some wax starters also). I will try this with the first nuc that fill it's first deep.


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## plcnut (Mar 8, 2013)

cristianNiculae said:


> An idea came to me on adding the second box without worrying that they will mess up: add the box with empty frames bellow the brood nest. If the frames are vertically aligned they should build it right(maybe add some wax starters also).


Having a perfectly drawn box on top, does not guarantee, a perfectly drawn bottom box. 
I tried adding an empty foundation less box underneath 3 of my Nucs, and they wenty wonky down below. I cleaned up the mess, and then dropped 2 drawn frames to the bottom box (both boxes are now alternated drawn/undrawn), now they 'should' draw it right 

I really like my foundationless, but you do have to keep on top of it, some hives don't understand comb guides. 

BTW wax starter strips were chewed out of the frames in one of my hives, so now I use 3 popsicle sticks that have one narrow crown staple straddling each one to hold them in, and 2 verticle bamboo skewers that are inserted through pre-drilled holes in the top and bottom bars. They have done beautifully with these.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Nice photos Lauri. And beautiful Queen. I will share one picture of Foundationless Brood comb. I just started the transition this year. I will take combs like this anytime. No wires, no foundation. Just bees and wax. Also, a frame of my fl comb honey. G


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## firefly22 (Jun 6, 2013)

Well said...I agree and love the buckwheat i plant some myself each year for the girls.


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## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

"I really like my foundationless, but you do have to keep on top of it, some hives don't understand comb guides. 

BTW wax starter strips were chewed out of the frames in one of my hives, so now I use 3 popsicle sticks that have one narrow crown staple straddling each one to hold them in."


I have seen that! Tried wax starter strips and the bees drew out ONLY the wax starter strip. The frames with popsicle sticks they drew out the whole frame. Strange.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>A thing that I don't like about foundationless is that it needs much more care. I have over 30 nucs and it's OK for me but I couldn't imagine a commercial doing this. 

I have about 200 hives and half of my frames are foundationless... it's much less "care" when you have some drawn combs that are straight. A straight drawn comb in the middle makes a lot of difference. A lot of drawn comb makes even more difference. I can't imagine doing 200 hives and wiring wax foundation for all of it. THAT would be too much work.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I simply found foundation to be a waste of money and it slows the bees down. I have fraems with foundation next to foundation less frames in some of my hives. the bees like to never get around to drawing that foundation. In some cases they moved the brood nest up draw out the adjacent fraems to hold honey and completely ignored the foundation.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Bees have been making worker,drone,and honey comb 
For many thousand moons 
no Foundation nor Wire 

Why fix it 

IF it ain't Broke


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> I have about 200 hives...


How is the GoPro action cam doing, Michael? Still would love to go around your apiary in a video and see your bees.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> I have 3,000 foundationless frames I'm using.





Michael Bush said:


> I have no problems extracting.





Michael Bush said:


> I have about 200 hives and half of my frames are foundationless...
> THAT would be too much work.


It would be too much work fixing all the burr and broken comb of hundred hives. When I reached 30 hives I decided to use frames and foundation (had fixed comb hives without frames until then) and after I got hundred hives I knew that was the right decision.

So with 200 hives, 30 combs each, you are making 20 combs x 5 lbs of honey per comb x 100 hives = 10,000 lbs of honey? Nice. (5,000 lbs extracted from foundationless combs.) 

Where do you sell all that honey to?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Daniel Y said:


> fraems with foundation next to foundation less frames ...the bees like to never get around to drawing that foundation.


You certainly have strange bees over the pond. My bees do just fine drawing foundation before drawing natural comb side by side:






































(Note: no frames used. Just two sheets of foundation.)


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

As you can see, the foundation is drawn twice as quick as natural comb.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

I am not saying foundationless (or frameless) is not possible. The opposite, you can do it. But it needs extra care, and there are reasons why frames and foundation became so popular in the past. :shhhh:

Put away all those miracles and myths. Extraction is an issue. Broken comb, especially when moving hives, can be an issue. Burr comb is an issue. Also too much drone cells is an issue. There are a lot of issues. A lot of time consuming issues. You can do it as a hobbyist, or with lots of time. Why not.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> So with 200 hives, 30 combs each, you are making 20 combs x 5 lbs of honey per comb x 100 hives = 10,000 lbs of honey? Nice. (5,000 lbs extracted from foundationless combs.)


Where do you get the number 5 lbs for each frame of comb? I was under the impression it takes 5 lbs of honey to make a lb of wax. there is far more than one frame of wax in a lb.

Even with the that my observations lead me to believe that even if it takes 5 lbs of honey to make a frame of comb it is 5 lbs they will forage because they need it. if they do not it is 5 lbs they will not forage. they will forage to make comb and then forage to fill it. if their is no comb to make they simply forage to fill what comb they have.

It is also my impression that bees begin preparation to make whatever honey they will make long before they start foraging. All the way back to mid winter early spring when they begin swarm preparations. I suspect it would work best to not change the hive size at all once preparations have begun. second best would be to make the changed pre swarm period.

I would like to take a large colony, 30 frames of bees or more, through winter then expand them to 60 to 70 frames during that pre swarm build up. Prevent swarming and then see if they are able to fill those 6 to 7 boxes with honey. At present I manage the bees to start as a deep and a medium and build up to a deep and three mediums. I think they do much better than that I simply am behind in having adequate equipment for every hive. I am thinking about going to a double deep with a medium for wintering and then adding another 3 to 4 mediums in the spring.

I took a 5 over 5 nuc up to 40 fraems of bees this past spring so that does indicate that rate of expansion is possible. Not only would this provide for larger colonies going through winter but also makes my spring swarm prevention measures easier to do. I simply let the bees build up to strength that assure they will swarm. then take their queen away and do not let them rear new queens. The search for cells is time consuming but it works well at keeping those bees in my hives.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

tommyt said:


> Bees have been making worker,drone,and honey comb
> For many thousand moons
> no Foundation nor Wire
> 
> ...


Bees have not been building comb for human's purposes. Frames, foundation, wires, and such help humans deal w/ problems found when extracting combs w/out those things. At one time those things were considered improvements and allowed liquid honey to become the primary product of bee hives managed by humans. It also allowed the reuse of combs.

It was considered an improvement and was part of the foundation of modern beekeeping laid down in the mid and late 19th century.

If you find a way better suited to your way of doing things, go for it.

ps: I thought it was that bees had to consume 8 lbs of honey to produce a pound of wax. Is there a definitive answer? Does the amount change w/ variables in the environment?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I thought it was that bees had to consume 8 lbs of honey to produce a pound of wax. Is there a definitive answer? Does the amount change w/ variables in the environment?


Not that this was addressed to me. but from my opinion the actual amount is irrelevent.

Lets say you have a colony that will make 100lbs of honey. given all other things such as healthy, population of colony and a flow they will in fact make 100 lbs of honey. if in the course of that they must make ten lbs of wax. they will forage 180 lbs of honey use 80 of it to make wax and still make 100lbs of honey. IF they need to make no wax they still only make 100lbs of honey.

Now I have not seen the same to be true whee brood is concerned. As far as I can tell bees will not make honey at all unless they have maximized their brood production.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Daniel Y said:


> Even with the that my observations lead me to believe that even if it takes 5 lbs of honey to make a frame of comb it is 5 lbs they will forage because they need it. if they do not it is 5 lbs they will not forage. they will forage to make comb and then forage to fill it. if their is no comb to make they simply forage to fill what comb they have.


Appears to me this is irrelevant to what Bernhard quoted MB saying. He's using frames of existing comb, some with foundation and some natural comb.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

That's fine I was not referring to anything Bernard quoted. I was referring to what Bernard stated. 

"So with 200 hives, 30 combs each, you are making 20 combs x 5 lbs of honey per comb x 100 hives = 10,000 lbs of honey?"

I have heard this argument about how much honey is "Lost" do to the need to draw comb. The fact is foundation only reduces the need for wax in a colony by a fraction. Something comparable to the wax that can be rendered from cappings.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

I said he is making 10,000 lbs of honey. That is not loosing. That is producing. That is a lot for foundationless extracting. I do not know anyone else in the World extracting so much honey from foundationless frames. Must be special equipment Michael is using for extracting.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Daniel Y said:


> I have heard this argument about how much honey is "Lost" do to the need to draw comb.


Read it again. No comb building going on.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Okay I get it.


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

That makes sense on SO MANY levels...



tommyt said:


> Bees have been making worker,drone,and honey comb
> For many thousand moons
> no Foundation nor Wire
> 
> ...


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

Foundationless or not as long as there is a flow everybody is happy. With this unstable weather I need to feed second time this year. The brood from the second batch of queens just emerged and eat all the honey. 
I've just talked to some more experienced guy near me and he said the honey production is a disaster this year, meaning nothing. The paradox is that vegetation is so green and lush, plenty of flowers everywhere, but probably not much nectar.


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## LanduytG (Aug 29, 2013)

Daniel Y said:


> I have heard this argument about how much honey is "Lost" do to the need to draw comb. The fact is foundation only reduces the need for wax in a colony by a fraction. Something comparable to the wax that can be rendered from cappings.


Evan though I'm a newbie this makes sense to me. If you are using foundation it is a very small part of the over all equation. The bee's have to draw it out anyway. The only thing I see with going with foundation is it will make a partial frame of comb more durable.

Greg


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I would think the biggest advantage to foundation is that you can put it pretty much anywhere and they will draw out basically worker comb. If you rotate in frames and put it on the sides you will end up with drone comb. If you put it up top you will end up with something in between. When you want to do splits you want to have a lot of worker comb for the splits, and foundation makes that easier. Plus it generally won't break off as Greg just said.

At least that is what I think, but I haven't used much foundation, so I could be completely wrong. I like knowing that they are not drawing out contaminated comb. The comb they draw may get contaminated over time, but it will take a while. Management is harder, but for a backyard guy it isn't a problem.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So with 200 hives, 30 combs each, you are making 20 combs x 5 lbs of honey per comb x 100 hives = 10,000 lbs of honey? Nice. (5,000 lbs extracted from foundationless combs.)

My focus is raising bees and queens.

>Must be special equipment Michael is using for extracting. 

Just a regular uncapping knife and an 18 frame radial extractor.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> *Bees have not been building comb for human's purposes.*
> :scratch: YEAH ok
> *Frames, foundation, wires, and such help humans deal w/ problems found when extracting combs w/out those things.*
> I think extractors help too, so are we on too something....... OR What??:thumbsup:
> ...


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Prior to the invention of movable frames (and long after, actually, since the ancient Greeks used something similar to top bar hives, it appears), honey was collected by killing the hive, normally kept in a skep or some similar device and straining out the honey form the crushed comb and brood. \

The wax was at least as valuable as the honey, it's wonderful stuff in a world without synthetic hydrocarbons.

Once movable frames were common, means of extracting the honey from the comb while leaving the wax intact provided the real advantage to extraction -- the bees have ready made, empty comb to put honey in. My bees this spring filled an entire super of empty comb in far less time than it took to draw another box half way -- it would appear they can fill a super with nectar in a day or two and dry it down to honey in a few more, while it takes a week or more to draw comb. If they don't have anywhere to put nectar, they don't collect it. 

Forcing your bees to draw new comb every year is going to cause them to be unable to take advantage of a good flow, since without storage space they won't go to collect it!

With some care, drawn comb should last some years -- that means you have to keep the wax moths out of it, along with small hive beetles, and it can be very attractive to mice as a nesting spot, but if you take care of it the bees will happily fill it with nectar time and time again, much faster than they can make fresh comb.

Just something to remember. I've always been curious as to why established beekeepers are always complaining about making frames and installing "expensive" foundation. What are they doing with all of them if they aren't expanding their operation? Even if you replace brood comb every 5 years or so, that's only 20% a year, shouldn't be thousands of frames, and the frames are still good anyway, just cut out the old comb and stuff them back in.

Peter


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> My focus is raising bees and queens.


That explains your point of view on queen excluders and on hive management. And foundationless beekeeping. 

So 200 hives cost at least 100 $ per hive per year. [I myself calculate with costs like 100-120 € per hive per year. (That is about 130-160 $)] So for 200 hives that makes 20.000 $ costs per year. You sell your queens for 50 $ each? (See: http://bushfarms.com/beesqueens.htm) So you are raising about 400 queens per year? All queens stem from emergency cells?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I think that's The Miracle of Marketing. $50.00 for a queen? $70.00 for a Golden one? Golden it better bee. I'm glad that Michael can get those prices and I hope he sells a lot of them, or as many as he wants to. If I ordered 100 could I get them at $40.00 each? Just asking, not serious.


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## CtyAcres (Apr 8, 2012)

What the heck does raising queens for profit got to do with " the miracle of going foundationless?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If your focus was more on honey production rather than queen production foundationless has more negatives.  That is how I read it.

For me I like combining the two methods. I like Lauri's idea of using some percentage of foundation in the frames and letting the bees fill in the rest although at this point I don't know how well it is working. I have put partially destroyed frames in a hive and had great results having the bees fix them so I have a lot of hopes for Laurie's mixed frames.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I think a good queen is worth $40, and probably much more. I wouldn't sell a queen for $25 that I raised. Too much stuff involved in raising them. My guess is that in the next few years we will see the price of queens from everyone go up, and I would bet that $40 will sound like a bargain.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Frames, foundation, wires, and such help humans deal w/ problems found when extracting combs w/out those things. 

Frames were not invented to extract, they were invented to do inspections. Foundation was not invented to extract, it was invented to get rid of drones. Wiring was not invented to extract, it was invented to keep foundation from sagging. All of this is obvious in all of the old ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture books over the years. So NONE of these things had anything to do with extracting.

>Prior to the invention of movable frames (and long after, actually, since the ancient Greeks used something similar to top bar hives, it appears), honey was collected by killing the hive, normally kept in a skep or some similar device and straining out the honey form the crushed comb and brood.

That is simply a lie perpetuated by the proponents of patent hives back in the late 1800s. Moses Quimby was one of the most successful commercial beekeepers in the world at one time and had nothing but box hives and NO movable frames. He make splits, raised queens and harvested a lot of honey and did not kill hives to collect honey. There are many people keeping skeps now and none of them are killing their hives either. I won't say no one EVER did, but it was never common practice. The story that it was was sales propaganda.

>So you are raising about 400 queens per year? 

If I had time, perhaps....

>All queens stem from emergency cells? 

Not at all...

>I think a good queen is worth $40, and probably much more

Probably, but people should raise their own from local stock and they won't have to worry about it.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> Frames were not invented to extract, they were invented to do inspections.


The first movable frames were invented by the Russian Propokovitch and he used this frames in his honey chambers exclusively. Sure he didn't inspect the honey combs! So frames were invented in the first place to harvest honey without killing the hives. Propokovitch was a beekeeper living in 1800 and he owned a business of 10,000 hives.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

This is the hive he used back in that time: 































Here some pictures of a museum and some infos on Propokovitch:
http://www.outdoorplace.org/beekeeping/Museum/Museum2.htm


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

He even used a queen excluder: a wooden board with slits that didn't allow the queen to pass.

@edit: Ah, I see there is an English wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petro_Prokopovych


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Looks like he was a proponent of painting his hives. A little paint and your hives will last 200 years!


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

From what I have seen it is actually some combination of both. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M788T26WIlY&index=5&list=PL56F49B06454AAD5B

Watch that video from about the 4 minute mark until it shows them killing the brood with sulfur. I suspect that many bees returned to that brood before ti was gassed. If you look carefully at the bees they actually get from the skeps it appears to me to be very few bees. requiring several colones be combined to make up a package at all. In all it appears to me that the majority of bees are in fact killed.

I wonder how sulfuring of hives ranks as a mite treatment.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> He even used a queen excluder: a wooden board with slits that didn't allow the queen to pass.
> 
> @edit: Ah, I see there is an English wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petro_Prokopovych


Thanks for that! Very interesting.

And I really deplore the thought of killing off hives to get honey.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

shannonswyatt said:


> A little paint and your hives will last 200 years!


At least! 

Well, I of course meant, that this is the sort of hive he used back in the time. The frames, for example, were not as large as shown in the photo.


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## F6Hawk (Mar 31, 2014)

Not sure how the bees would return to the skep from which they were shaken... they are sealed up prior to knowcking the bees out, and the shaken bees are added to another colony to boost the total numbers. Then the brood was killed using the sulphur smoke. I would imagine that only a very few bees remain in the empty skeps and would be killed.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Yes, Brian, they are working very well. Out of several hundred, I've only had a handfull of frames with a small part of crooked comb that needed to be removed so they could start over. Just be sure to alternate solid frames with the partial foundationless until they get drawn. Also, as with any foundattionless make sure your hive is fairly level. If you see them building comb at an angle because your hive's bench had settled, just reverse the frame and it will straighten out.










2/3 sheet of rite cell (I use the other third for my mating nuc frames)
This size gives you more worker cells and 2-8 1/2"x 2/1/4" foundationless areas.










1/2 sheet of rite cell. This gives you centered worker sized cells and 2-8 1/2" x 4 1/4" foundationless sides for cut comb:










I am running frames tight together since they are new so they are not super thick honeycomb. When I get some fatties, I'll show you.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Thanks Lauri, I am using strictly mediums so the level criteria should not be as critical. I think I used a full frame between most of them but I might have run out on a couple of frames.

You know me, I didn't keep a good watch on the progress so this fall could be a pain or a blessing. We will see. I think it is a good idea no matter what results I get.


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