# How to Make an Oxalic Acid-Glycerin Towel (Video Demonstration)



## Tardball (Mar 3, 2016)

Thanks for the video. I was going to give it a try this year once spring shows up here. One question for you, your instructions said 25 ml (which is a volume measurement) but you used the scale for it (mass). 25 ml doesn't equal 25 grams. You would also need a graduated cylinder or to know the specific gravity of glycerin.


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## Bee Arthur (Mar 21, 2015)

You are right, thanks for pointing that out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but 31 grams of glycerin is about 25ml (based on SG of 1.263), right?

I put a new annotation in the video to (hopefully) make that clear.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Here's more on the subject;

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-shop-towel-updates/


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## Tom1617 (Oct 17, 2016)

Thanks so much for doing this... I love that you did it on a small scale... once more people have results I will give it a try... so is it 25 ml or grams.. I will wait for the discussion to sort that out.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Chances are very high that anyone trying to follow these directions will make towels that do not work. Temperature control when you dissolve the oxalic acid is very critical and as shown there is no temperature control. The energy out put of microwaves is all over the map so just giving a time is pretty meaningless. With such small batches even a few seconds extra heating can do major damage to the solution. Much better to not use a microwave at all to heat and measure temp with a thermometer and make sure you do not go over 60 deg C.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I mixed just enough ingredients to give 25 grams of the mix per towel. I put the ten towels in a large zip lock and poured the warm mix in and sealed bag. I had a preheated stoneware pan to 150 F and placed the bag on that and squeegied the ingredients around using a dry paint roller. It spread quite uniformly and there was no guessing about how much to squeeze out. 150 F. is plenty hot enough to dissolve the OA and it flows well at this temperature.

If you are not familiar with working with metric measurements and aware of temperature limitations there are more than a few ways to screw up. Mr. Cryberg's caveat is for real! That is the reason that there will never be official blessing on any home brew treatment. When approval comes it will be for a finished product with all instructions for use and associated safety concerns, disposal of waste etc., etc. Just the way it has to be in attempt to protect everyone from themselves.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc (Mar 3, 2015)

Very interesting. This is the first that I have heard of this. Does anyone have any documentation regarding its effectiveness vs dribble or vaporization?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Cutting.......
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/scibeeimages/2016-Beyond-Taktic-pdf.pdf
cheers
gww


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## Bee Arthur (Mar 21, 2015)

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I took down the video to make sure I've got the kinks worked out so I don't spread misinformation.


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## Tom1617 (Oct 17, 2016)

Bee Arthur said:


> Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I took down the video to make sure I've got the kinks worked out so I don't misinformation.


Put it back when you get it fixed... thanks


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## Gumpy (Mar 30, 2016)

Tom1617 said:


> Put it back when you get it fixed... thanks


I agree with Tom. This is a good thread because it's finally showing various techniques being tried to produce and introduce this very new concept, as well as the varied opinions why it will or will not work. I hope you will also be recording mite drops and sugar/alcohol tests while using your shop towels, and posting them so we can compare the various methods. Over time, we will find the best ways to make and use these, and what expected results should be.


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## Bee Arthur (Mar 21, 2015)

Okay, I'll re-post when it's available. I'm actually rendering an updated video now, but was planning to keep it private just so I'd have it as a personal reference. But if you guys want it available, I'll make it public.

Despite beekeepers' reflex to get defensive about something like this, I genuinely appreciate the feedback. I'd hate to spend the next 10 years using a flawed technique and wondering why it doesn't work.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Please post your new vidio here when you do it. I really liked your method of conveying info.
gww


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## Bee Arthur (Mar 21, 2015)

Okay, so I actually re-made a couple batches of towels today, taking temperatures during the process to make sure I wasn't getting things too hot. This video reflects that, along with a couple other changes (including an attempt to remedy the ml-to-g debacle).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlgqEInjdXM

I'm not above re-doing this again or deleting it altogether if anyone sees more dealbreaking flaws. I did this in the first place because I thought there was a need for an easy, step-by-step guide for hobby beekeepers; I don't want to negate my effort by publishing a BS video.

*crofter* - I liked your idea of just dumping the solution and towels directly into the plastic bag and saturating them that way. I actually did it that way today when I was re-making the towels. If I were going to re-film this (which I won't), I'd demonstrate it that way instead of pouring it onto the cookie sheet.


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## Tenpin (Apr 27, 2016)

When I did mine I made a small batch - only needed 5 towels. I placed my solution in large disposable plastic container (Glad Freezer Container) and then put the towels in. Sealed it and shook it around until all the solution had been absorbed.


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## Gumpy (Mar 30, 2016)

Bee Arthur said:


> Okay, so I actually re-made a couple batches of towels today, taking temperatures during the process to make sure I wasn't getting things too hot. This video reflects that, along with a couple other changes (including an attempt to remedy the ml-to-g debacle).
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlgqEInjdXM
> 
> ...


Good job. I'm looking forward to your testing results later this year. 

Also interested in Crofter's method of saturation. Seems very simple and un-messy.


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## MT204 (May 12, 2011)

Here is the most current info for the shop towels mix.
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-shop-towel-updates/


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Randys test was done with what arthurs vidio showed and he did get good mite control with it.

gww


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Bee Arthur;

I really liked your video; very logical presentation with no empty space and no silly loud music!

The large ziplock bag, and just the right amount of liquid mixture worked good. I was not sure how quickly the mixture would stiffen as it cooled but with the heated stoneware cookie sheet to roll the bag and contents on it seemed a non issue.

I think Randy's last modification of adding some water will make dispersal into the towels even easier. It certainly appears it would if you were trying to get half a roll of paper towels to lick it up!


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

It might be worth some consideration in the vid to note this is an illegal use of oxalic acid and potentially anyone who uses such a concoction on their bee hive risks major fines or jail terms for breaking the federal pesticide laws. The exception would be if you have an experimental use permit issued specifically to test this substance and probably would require destruction of honey produced by treated hives. Randy has an experimental use permit.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

It is also illegal to mix water dishwashing soap and backing soda and spray it on your plants to fight bugs and fungus. It is illeagle to take rotten eggs and mix it with red pepper and spray it on your plants to keep **** and deer from eating them.
Vinigar is not an approved weed killer.
Nobody listens to any of this if they find it works.
Cheers
gww


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Re-read this thread from the position of being a potential honey buyer. 
Hard to believe that stuff like this is even discussed in a public forum. 
It certainly does not inspire one's trust in buying honey from back-yard beekeepers. 

Way back when I was a newbie the same exact issue of "who knows what all kinds of chemicals that guy down the street puts in his bee hives?". My hives are in plain sight from the street so I have to be careful about when and what I do because they are watching. 
Who are they? The people who buy my honey.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

aunt betty
Are you treatment free?
Cheers
gww


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

there a simple method for complete dispersal into the towels and even distrubution of the oa solution, surprised no armchair chem wannbes have figured this out.
Takes about 2 min to soak a roll.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Rhubarb leaf concentrate Aunt Betty;  I hear what you are saying; you are not wrong about the potential optics of it.


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## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

Oxalic acid naturally occurs in honey (and many other things we eat) already.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Cryberg says 60 degrees C, Oliver says 71 degrees C as top temps before degradation of oxalic acid. I am no chemist, but what effect do higher temps have on the oxalic? Is it off-gassed at temps above 150 or 160 F, is it converted, rendered inert, does anybody know? Oliver states that _"Higher temps will cause degradation of the OA and accelerate ester formation (both of which we wish to avoid)."_ I guess I am looking for a layman's explanation of that statement. I initially assumed that temps greater than 160 F would start sublimation. But that does not seem to be the concern (i.e. safety of the beekeeper).


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## Tom1617 (Oct 17, 2016)

Are you aware you eat oxalic acid all the time? It is kinda like citric acid. I like it how people think artificial brood breaks make "treatment free". Can your bees live in the world on their own without human intervention? If that answer is no, then can you claim treatment free? Depends I guess


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## Виктор (Mar 28, 2017)

Bee Arthur said:


> Okay, so I actually re-made a couple batches of towels today, taking temperatures during the process to make sure I wasn't getting things too hot. This video reflects that, along with a couple other changes (including an attempt to remedy the ml-to-g debacle).
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlgqEInjdXM
> 
> ...


We await the continuation of your video and results and checking for seclusionist


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

gww said:


> It is also illegal to mix water dishwashing soap and backing soda and spray it on your plants to fight bugs and fungus. It is illeagle to take rotten eggs and mix it with red pepper and spray it on your plants to keep **** and deer from eating them.
> Vinigar is not an approved weed killer.
> Nobody listens to any of this if they find it works.
> Cheers
> gww


I am genuinely sorry to say this. But I now have to disagree concerning OA. It is now in fact regulated. None of those other substances are. IN order for something to be illegal it has to be stated somewhere that it is in fact illegal. Nowhere are there any regulations concerning soapy water. powdered sugar etc. It is not illegal simply because no one ever said it was. it is illegal only if someone stated specifically that it is. and now it is in regard to OA. It is now illegal to use oa as a pesticide in any manner that is not consistent with it's labeling. This is why I did not want to see OA regulated. Prior to that you would be right. No longer true. Now you will need a permit to use it any other way than has been approved when approval as use as a pesticide was applied for and approved. Now this use has to be eventually approved.
It is also true that people are going to take what they have seen and run with it. they do so at some degree of risk. How much is for them to decide. Now I think you can cook up anything you like. that is not a problem. Placing it on a hive becomes a problem.
I also have no issue with discussion about new stuff. I just think it should have with it some degree of responsibility in regard to pointing out that this stuff is not approved and now would be a violation of regulations regarding OA.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

aunt betty said:


> Re-read this thread from the position of being a potential honey buyer.
> Hard to believe that stuff like this is even discussed in a public forum.
> It certainly does not inspire one's trust in buying honey from back-yard beekeepers.
> 
> ...


I am not nearly as concerned about what chemicals I am putting in my hive as I am what they are putting in my hives. They being those that buy my honey. and putting it there via pesticides and herbicides they readily spray all over their property. A large portion of they I know pretty much exactly what is being applied because I receive every lb of it. Until I am using OA by the pallet load I am not to worried.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> IN order for something to be illegal it has to be stated somewhere that it is in fact illegal. .


Well, yes. And here is the core of FIFRA, which establishes the basis for EPA regulation of pesticides ...


> A pesticide is any substance or mixture of substances *intended for
> *- Preventing, destroying, repelling or mitigating any pest.
> - Use as a plant regulator, defoliant, or desiccant.
> - Use as a nitrogen stabilizer
> ...


Note that there does not have to be a list of specifically identified 'illegal' substances. What IS required is an *intent to use that substance as a PESTICIDE*.

In that spirit, the pesticide regulation law is similar to laws against financial fraud using the US Mail. Those laws don't have to specify the exact method of the fraud (my ex-king Nigerian cousin, send me $1 & get back $10, etc), the key issue is *intending* to defraud and using the US Mail as part of the process.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Danial
https://www.michfb.com/MI/Farm-News/Are-homemade-pesticides-legal/

Looks kind of muddy to me like all law tend to.
gww


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Daniel Y said:


> I am not nearly as concerned about what chemicals I am putting in my hive as I am what they are putting in my hives. They being those that buy my honey. and putting it there via pesticides and herbicides they readily spray all over their property. A large portion of they I know pretty much exactly what is being applied because I receive every lb of it. Until I am using OA by the pallet load I am not to worried.


If I read that right you mean that other people should mind their own business while you worry about what they're doing. !?!?!?!
I agree sort of (not really) but am a realist and will mind my own business. I'd like to control the whole city/county/state/world 
and force everyone else to adapt to my own beekeeper pet peeves like "no spraying Sevin" but that is not possible nor would I even attempt it. 
We're getting too close to this being political so let's just back away real slow and agree to disagree. (please?)


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## muskrat (Jul 22, 2016)

Question - I've looked at the video above and other videos about using this acid so I have a question about how safe this is for the bees? Yes, this acid occurs naturally in minuscule amounts - I get that - but how safe could it be to put it in a hive when you have to wear gloves and goggles and such just to handle the stuff? Humans are HUGE compared to a honey bee, so if we have to wear protective clothing and things, how could it not harm the bees at the levels that are going in the hive, paper towel or not? 

For what it's worth, this is only my second year for beekeeping, but so far homemade powdered sugar treatments seem to keep them under control. I had two hives that had the mites bad last fall but these treatments seemed to do the trick and very few mites so far this spring. My other two hives haven't had an issue yet but am checking regularly. 

I'm not questioning anyone's integrity, just concerned about our bees. Thx


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Muskrat
I am even newer then you and all I have to offer is what randy oliver said during the test he ran. He said that the bees seemed to be doing even better in the acidic enviroment that the towels caused and that those hive looked the best.
What does that mean in over all health? I do not know but will take it at face value untill more is known.
Cheers
gww


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

aunt betty said:


> If I read that right you mean that other people should mind their own business while you worry about what they're doing. !?!?!?!
> I agree sort of (not really) but am a realist and will mind my own business. I'd like to control the whole city/county/state/world
> and force everyone else to adapt to my own beekeeper pet peeves like "no spraying Sevin" but that is not possible nor would I even attempt it.
> We're getting too close to this being political so let's just back away real slow and agree to disagree. (please?)


You didn't read that right. When I say I receive every lb of it . that is exactly what I mean. It is my business, as in it is my job. I run the warehouse where it is delivered. So I just don't wish I could run their business. I sort of do.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I know this is an old thread, but, thanks for making the OA/glycerin/towel video. The video, plus Randy Oliver's info on making these towels, are an excellent start for first time towel-makers.


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## KevinWI (Mar 18, 2018)

This is a really old thread...and Randy has an updated formula as of December 2018.....I've read all of Randy's articles and updates. fascinating. ....and a footnote that many seem to miss is do not expect any "significant" mite drop for 6-7 weeks. 


but...lets say a beekeeper in Chile made some of these towels..... can they be stored? frozen? tupperware? not at all?


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