# Stop using smoke, use diluted lactic acid.



## Apinor (May 20, 2016)

In 1998 I stoped using smoke when treating my 35 hives. At that time we got varroa in my region, and beekeepers were reccomended to use a lactic acid treatment to control the varroa level. Recipe: Lactic acid 80% is mixed with water, 10% of this lactic acid + 90% of tap water added. We use a spray bottle able to spray also in horisontal position. http://www.relekta.no/Default.aspx?ID=2246&ProductID=PROD403 This spray bottle is as made for varroa treatment with oxalic acid + sugar brine.
By using this acid treatment, I saw that the bees behaved in the same way as if I used smoker, but they are not stressed. I dropped the smoker and have used the acid sprayng since then. Benefits: No smoke containing 40 cancerogen gasses, no irritation and no smoke to breath, the bees are calm and not stressed, this "smoker" is always fired and by using the acid solution, the number of varroa is limited and can be kept in a low level just by spraying the bees in the same way as you are using your smoker. Analysis done of honey taken from hives treated by use of lactic solution, they contain less lactic acid than hives treated by use of smoker. Lactic acid is a organic acid and a natural part of honey. A lot of food contains lactic acid which is used as preservativ and pH regulator. 
Try this aid and you can combine interventions of the hives with fighting varroa. On top you protect your health and make the beekeeping plesanter. The use of smokers in Norway are decreasing and more beekeepers are changing to lactic acid spraying, mainly because of more convenient in use than smoker. 

Morten
Norway


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## johnbeejohn (Jun 30, 2013)

Humm......


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Apinor said:


> The use of smokers in Norway are decreasing and more beekeepers are changing to lactic acid spraying, mainly because of more convenient in use than smoker.


Today I went to an apiary and took a sprinkler with water and sugar, since I stopped using the smoker. I wondered if I could use mixed acid in the water to get some acaricidal effect. At the time I only think in oxalic acid, an idea I put aside since it is a very strong acid. It is a great coincidence to see that beekeepers in Norway use acetic acid in this way. 

Morten do you have any precautions with the amounts of acetic acid you introduce into the hive with this practice?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Eduardo, Morten is using lactic acid, not acetic acid. This method is not new. Usually the instructions are to spray both side of all the frames that have bees in order to treat for varroa when using lactic acid. This is very time consumming. Using lactic acid in syrup instead of smoke is killing 2 birds with one stone. It probably is not as good at killing varroa as a complete spray down of the hive but the multiple applications likely has a cumulative effect. It is nice to have another tool in the toolbox.

Jean-Marc


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Yes, lactic acid. Thank you Jean-Marc. It seems to me an interesting idea as you say due to the probable cumulative effect and is a method that kills 2 birds with one stone.

Morten do you have any way to avoid an overdose of lactic acid? Or is not even a problem? Do you make a mixture with sugar and water or do you only use water?


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

Interesting, thanks for sharing.


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## allniter (Aug 22, 2011)

is that 80% acid -----mixed at 10% acid to 90% water ---how much acid would you mix in a QT. 
after mixing how long will it stay good --self life after mixing ---what I found was only 10% lactic acid thanks for the post


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## Apinor (May 20, 2016)

Lactic acid is a preservation which can can stay stable both as consentrated or diluted. As 80% lactic acid it will stay stable for years. If you use the diluted mixture 1:9 , i will have used it within 2-3 months. Nothing happens during this time, and the best, you can hardly kill the bees with this diluted lactic acid. Overdose is no problem if you don`t try to drown them. Try to use the spraying as you are using the smoker and you will see that the bees are calm and it makes no stress.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Will it drive the bees down into the hive like smoke does?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I'm not sure what rock I was hiding under, but I wasn't aware lactic acid was proven to be an effective varroa control. Live and learn:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00051468
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.3511&rep=rep1&type=pdf

While it's efficacy doesn't appear to be as good as formic or oxalic, it does appear to be effective. Although:



> Because of need for frequent application and the large droplet size of spray bottles, a significant quantity is ultimately delivered. This large dose increases the possibility of residues in honey. . . . Careful timing of the treatment is important to minimise this contamination in honey and a withdrawal time of eight weeks from last treatment prior to honey harvesting.


Source: http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/lactic.html

Suggesting, but not proving, that it may contaminate honey.



Apinor said:


> Analysis done of honey taken from hives treated by use of lactic solution, they contain less lactic acid than hives treated by use of smoker.


Or maybe not 
Do you have a copy of any of these analyses? Or any studies to show lactic acid treatment doesn't show up in honey?

Or, studies showing lactic acid's impact on calming colonies?

I can't find anything on these, but much of it doesn't appear to be in English.

Still very interesting.


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## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

Smoke has worked for millinium. I think I will let others experiential with these "modern" alternative smokers.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

allniter said:


> is that 80% acid -----mixed at 10% acid to 90% water ---how much acid would you mix in a QT.
> after mixing how long will it stay good --self life after mixing ---what I found was only 10% lactic acid thanks for the post


I think your spot on with your measurements as far as the 80% it looks like its mainly sold as a cosmetic skin peel from what I can see on the web.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

rolftonbees said:


> Smoke has worked for millinium. I think I will let others experiential with these "modern" alternative smokers.


Change scares me two. Especially when you have 4 kids and a wife counting on you but for me that's one of the down sides to working bees. Choking from the smoke and the fear of burning up something with the spark of an ember on a dry August day.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

My recipe for sugar blocks is 25# sugar, _one quart cider vinegar_ + other nutritional ingredients.

Apple cider vinegar contains acetic acid. It also contains some lactic, citric, and malic acids + vitamins and electrolytes, according to info on the internet

A lot of folks are afraid of the high acid content in the sugar block recipe, but I have fabulous results overwintering with them. I use a lot of vinegar in my beekeeping.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

jean-marc said:


> Using lactic acid in syrup instead of smoke is killing 2 birds with one stone. Jean-Marc


Is lactic acid something that could be added to syrup when your feeding the bees? What amount is beneficial for killing mites if it is?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I only add a small splash of vinegar to my syrup recipe when direct feeding in hives, but when I open 'feed', I use a very very light syrup, heavy on acid and additives. My inverted bucket feeding is more to distract them during dearth periods so I can get into my mating nucs during the day without being pestered.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

"Residues after treatments with organic acids

*Formic acid*: After application in autumn at the end of the bee season, the formic acid content in sugar feed increases significantly and may exceed by far the natural acid content. Later on the formic acid concentration decreases slowly due to evaporation to reach the original level in following spring (Capolongo et al., 1996 and Stoya et al., 1986). Therefore, formic acid treatments in autumn can be recommended without any adverse consequences for the taste of the honey, harvested the following spring. On the other hand, in spring (the beginning of the active bee season in Switzerland), only emergency treatments are advised, because residues do not evaporate in time and may affect the taste of spring and summer honey.

*Oxalic acid*: After treatment in autumn the concentration of oxalic acid was not increased in honey of the following year (Mutinelli et al., 1997). Therefore, application of oxalic acid in autumn can be advised without any risk for honey quality.

*Lactic acid: Immediately after applications in autumn the lactic acid content in feed increases up to 1500 mg/kg, but four weeks later it decreases to a value of about 500 mg/kg (Kary, 1987). This is below the taste threshold for lactic acid. Thus, lactic acid can be used for Varroa control in spring until four weeks before the beginning of nectar flow."*

source: https://www.researchgate.net/profil...oney_taste/links/55c20abb08aebc967defce92.pdf


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Lauri said:


> Refined sugar has a lot of lime added to it during it'a processing. I want to neutralize that lime- keep the hive on the acidic side.


sugar + distilled water solution is neutral, to the best of my knowledge. if your sugar solution tests basic it is most likely from the water used.
have you tested your sugar solution, a simple litmus test would work?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Thanks Edwardo.

I wasn't aware a spring Formic flash treatment could contaminate honey. I know MAQS even recommends the use with supers on.

Interesting.


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## Apinor (May 20, 2016)

Yes, for sure. I have used it since 1998. The number of hives have varied from 15 to 50 during this years. Of methods I have detected, this is of the best you can use for yourself and for the bees. The bees leave the top bars and the ends of the top bars when you spray the areas you want them to leave, just like smoke. Aditional the bees hit by the spraying, get lost of the varroa! What more can you wish?


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## Apinor (May 20, 2016)

Of profession I am food technologist with 40 years within the food sector and know lactic acid quite well. When you drink fermented milk product, yoghurt or eat cheese, you consume lactic acid. All your skin is cowered by lactic acid bacterias. The lactic acid is a part of our protection against patogenic bacterias. Don`t be afraid of lactic acid - you can taste the 1:9 mixture lactic acid/water, it does not harm you, but taste acid of cause. Lactic acid is a mild organic acid unlike oxalic acid, acetic acis and especially the formic acid. Formic acid 80% is very dangeres both for bees and humans. I have lost 19 hives by using formic acid treatment. No more formic acid for my hives - too difficult to control the effect. As described abow, you do not harm the bees by using the dillution and you can not kill them by the use. I know because I have used it the last 19 years without problems. I remember we took over 4 hives which should be united to only one hive. We sprayed each frame strongly and shaked the bees into the same hive. We used 500ml of dilluted lactic acid for this job, but found just some dead bees on the bottom board the day after. That was the first time I found varroa by myself. Difficult to find in US? A piece of cake for me. How many MT do you want?
http://www.americanchemicalsuppliers.com/list/search?search=lactic+acid
http://www.corbion.com/biochemicals


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

There are several common organic acids you may encounter. 
Lactic acid: 
any time you use your muscles beyond the availability of oxygen (your body turns sugars into lactic acid to power your muscles in the transition)
Yogurt (bacterially fermented lactose)
Sour ales (Berliner Weiss, Flemish Red, etc)
Dry-cured salamis

Acetic acid:
vinegar, Flemish Red ales, etc.

Formic acid:
ants

Oxalic acid:
Spinach, other leafy dark green vegetables, wood bleach

As mentioned above, some use of these is made in cosmetics, as well. [Arsenic used to be used to whiten complexions; what price beauty?]

The acetic and formic acids are volatile. They evaparate away. It is the volatility of formic that helps it both to permeate capped brood and kill the confined varroa as well as to evaporate away and leave the hive uncontaminated. Lactic and oxalic are not so volatile, and hang around until consumed or washed away. Lactic acid has food value. For instance, if I recall correctly my decades-ago biochemistry, the body can convert it back to sugar and then oxidize it the usual way to obtain much more energy than required to reconvert it.

You don't have to be concerned with the volatile acids remaining in the colony. Formic and acetic will dissipate. Strong formic can do damage while it is present, as can acetic. For that matter, the others in strong concentration or on sensitive tissues can do harm.

I was very pleased to hear of European use of lactic acid as a calming spray with beneficial activity against varroa. That was welcome news to me, a new beekeeper. Thanks to the Original Poster for this information.

Michael

[addenda: I really should have mentioned some other acids. There are ascorbic acid (vitamin C) and citric acid, often confused but not equivalent. There is acetylsalicylic acid and its salts (aspirin). Methyl salicylate (Wintergreen oil) is related to this. Salicylic acid is used in "Compound W" for wart removal. It is caustic enough to skin to erode wart tissue but mild enough for over-spill to be tolerated. Tartaric acid and tannic acid show up in foodstuffs and other plant products. I thought that the mentions of "acid" in discussions here might overly sensitize some folks, and that some organic acids you are already familiar with might be worth pointing out. Don't just react to names. Check out what they are, and be wary of who you trust for information. If you want a real lesson in how things can be mis-used, look up "di-hydrogen monoxide" and be prepared for a very scary time.]


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## Alaskan79 (Jan 6, 2017)

OK I am getting my first bees in May. Now if I use this and spray the Nuc frames as I move them to my deep it should help knock down the mites if there is any. Then every time I check my hive and use this as smoke it should help me at keeping the mites in control. Then in late summer I would treat with MAQS to get the mites before winter. I am just getting ideas. Maybe this is a good thing for someone with just a few hives.


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## Apinor (May 20, 2016)

Thank you Michael for know how and support. I have several times written in the Norwegian magazine for beekeepers about use of diluetd lactic acid and beekeepers are switching over from smoke to use of lactic acid, both due to superficiality and varroa control. In one of the editions the president of the Norwegian beekeeper society made a piece with heading: "Keep away from lactic acid!"He argued strongly against due to risk of pollution to honey, danger to the bees and recommended still use of smokers. As "fuel" he recommended use of dried moose poops which we find in the forests bu us. This went out to all the members all over the country. Sorry for him, I could smell the smoke, he was trapped! I wrote a "counterpart" and asked if he could explain the difference in effect between use of lactic acid reccomended as varroa treatment and recommended as as smoke substitute. He had been the arguer for spraying lactic acid for varroa control in a lot of meetings for controling varroa in many years. I wondered how he could reccomend to take the moose poops with the fingers/gloves and then lift up the frames bringing the intestinal bacteria E-coli into the hives. Also I wonderes how he could reccoment beekeepers to blow smoke into the hives which contain more than 40 carcinogenic gasses which will pollute both the honey, the bees and the beekeepers. I ended the case writing: The danger between this methods we easily can evaluate. If you inhale 10 strokes from your smoker, I will drink 10 strokes from my spray bottle. The one of us coming to the hospital have won  After that tests was run by several beekeepers threw the whole season and the honey was analysed giving the astonishing result: It was more lactic acid in honey from the smoke treated hives than in honey coming from lactic acid treated hives. In Norway we have a boom of new beekeepers. Last year we got 800 new ones and a growth of about 45% during the last 4-5 years. We recommend using lactic acid sprayed as explained. Soon we will see the first generation without tobacco smokers in Norway. Smoking is free falling and out by the youngsters. Why shall we then still recommend the use of smokers in beekeeping when good and harmless alternatives exist just around the corner.
I have made several videos and some of them show the use of diluted lactic acid as smoke substitute. Please have a look at the collection "Norsk birokt" (Norwegian beekeeping). https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=norsk+birøkt
Perhaps it is more ideas to pick up.


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## Apinor (May 20, 2016)

If you have a look at this video showing the moving of a colony into new equipment for sale, you can see the effect of diluted lactic acid which is sprayed in the beginning of the intervention. I have Buckfast bees which is brewed from Italian as you have. You can see the yellow adomens.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muC5WC0TcKE


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Morten, do you make a mixture with sugar + water (1:1??)+ lactic acid, or do you only use water + lactic acid? 

If you can give some details of your global treatment program against varroa mites would be interesting.

Thank you!


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

https://www.amazon.com/Lactic-Acid-88-Home-Brew/dp/B000MBW7V2

is this the stuff?


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## Apinor (May 20, 2016)

You can use this materiel, but it is a bit stronger than what I am using. I use 80% with good result. The price you get is robbery! I pay 4,6 USD/4,40 Euro pro kg in 25kg canisters. Share this quantity with friends and you make a good price compared with amazon prices. I will revert with treatment info against varroa.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

I just thought about something....ANTS!

I have big problems with ants in the yards and I'm worried that spraying sugar water will just escalate the problem.

Any chance the lactic acid would keep ants away?


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> "Residues after treatments with organic acids
> 
> *Formic acid*: After application in autumn at the end of the bee season, the formic acid content in sugar feed increases significantly and may exceed by far the natural acid content. Later on the formic acid concentration decreases slowly due to evaporation to reach the original level in following spring (Capolongo et al., 1996 and Stoya et al., 1986). Therefore, formic acid treatments in autumn can be recommended without any adverse consequences for the taste of the honey, harvested the following spring. On the other hand, in spring (the beginning of the active bee season in Switzerland), only emergency treatments are advised, because residues do not evaporate in time and may affect the taste of spring and summer honey.
> 
> ...


Acid is highly reactive. I would guess there are some changes in the honey even after it evaporates out. If I treated I might collect some honey before, just after and after a period of time and do some taste tests.


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## Apinor (May 20, 2016)

Eduardo, I am only using lactic acid diluted in water, no sugar. Don`t mix the way of using lactic acid with the way of oxalic treatment. It`s two different ways of treatment, one mild and one very strong. Organic acids are very different in strength, lactic acid is one of the weakest and diluted as explain, harmless. Level 1 part of the lactic acid 80% strength into 9 parts of water, gives a concentration of 8% lactic acid in the solution to use.
Varroa control:
I am using 5,1mm cell size comb foundation to get a shorter development time, diluted lactic acid as described as smoke substitute which will kill varroa by every visit in the hives and only one oxalic acid treatment in November/Desember when the broodcombs are empty and all the varroa is unprotected. This was the only treatment from 1998 until 2015. After several of my beekeeper friends lost a lot of their hives the winter 2014/2015, I started to build drone combs in June/july, but testing this combs did not show more than a few varroa. Some hives were more or less free of varroa. Oxalic treatment after season with empty brood combs gives a very good effect. In Norway we do not use Apistan, pyrethroids or any other chemicals giving resistance over time. Also pesticide neonicotinoids are bound and not in use. The main reason for loosing colonies by us is the presence of virus spread by varroa. 
We need a stop of brood production before oxalic treatment. We have bottom boards with mesh to make the colonies making clusters and stop the brood production. A lot of beekeepers use open bottom boards the whole winter without any problem. I myself use this even though we have harsh winters with temp down to -25 degree F. This also make the lives for the varroa very difficult and about 90% of the remaining varroa dies threw the winter. To stop the queens is very important to be able to control varroa. If the colonies don`t get rid of the varroa by oxalic treatment, often queens are laying eggs threw the winter, the colonies goes into a stressy situation by virus infections and the unrest disturb their ability to make clusters and stop legging eggs. The number of varroa is increasing. Also they use too much feed and can die of hunger before spring.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Apinor said:


> Eduardo, I am only using lactic acid diluted in water, no sugar. Don`t mix the way of using lactic acid with the way of oxalic treatment. It`s two different ways of treatment, one mild and one very strong. Organic acids is very different in strength, lactic acid is one of the weakest.


Thanks Morten, for your explanation and for sharing with us your experience and your point of view.


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## Apinor (May 20, 2016)

Iharder, with the worry about all kind of chemical coctails and recidues people describe ending up in honey due to use of acaricides like Apistan + all kinds of pesticides etc. I understan your worrying. Remember honey contains a lot of organic acids: Oxalic, D-Glucuronic,. Citric , Galacturonic, Propionic, Pyruvic, Malic, Citramalic, Quinic , D-Gluconic , Lactic, Formic, Glutaric and Butyric giving a pH and a very acid end product we call honey. As you can see, lactic acid is a natural acid in honey. This you can study yourself in this report https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00891761/document
In fact, honey is from nature very sour, and this we do not think about. Average pH of honey is pH 3,9 compared with the pH in orange juice 3,5 , a slightly lower. Why we do not detect all this acid content is because honey is a strong combination of different sugars which mask out the sour taste completely. When chromatography analysis from Norway of honey showed a lower level of lactic acid in honey from colonies treated with lactic acid and a higher level of lactic acid in honey from colonies treated by use of smoker, we can conclude: Using as smoke substitute as diluted lactic acid 80% in level 1:9 in water will not influence to the pH of honey if used as you use the smoker. Also, forget to try to find deviation in taste of honey from this two ways of controling the bees. When it`s not able to find by chromatoraphy tests, forget the tastings.
http://www.honey.com/images/downloads/ph-acidsinhoney.pdf


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So why does using a smoker has more lactic acid (LA) than your weak LA calming spray?


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## Apinor (May 20, 2016)

Beepro, it is a good question. I ask myself, can the stress which occurs by smoking influence to the composition of the organic acids in honey. Also there are differences in acid content in nectar from different plants, that we know.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

beepro said:


> So why does using a smoker has more lactic acid (LA) than your weak LA calming spray?


Pure speculation here, and I've never used LA calming spray, but using a smoker causes gorging. That gorging of honey, followed by what I can assume would be it's reinsertion back into the cell later (once the hive has "relaxed") may alter it's composition slightly. Essentially adding more enzymes from the bee's crop that wouldn't have been added, but for the gorging. If the LA calming spray doesn't result in gorging, it may explain the slightly different composition.

Again, just speculation. I don't know for certain.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Have an open mind about this but also have a couple questions that might sound snarky. Forgive me for that.
I think I'd try this method without hesitation once I knew that most of my customers would also accept it's use. I hide nothing and tell people I use organic acids to treat for mites. There is no way I could hide that fact because I'm an urban beekeeper with hives in plain sight. People watch me working with the bees. Sometimes a crowd. 

Is this approved by the USDA or FDA for use on honeybees in the USA? Is the honey still ok to sell? 
Do we have to buy specially labeled containers of the acid "for use on honeybees" or it's against federal law to use?
Is the cost comparable to using FREE pine cones in my smoker? 
How effective on mites? 

MAQ's seem to be the most effective for me with best results as far as over-winter survival rates. It's a bit expensive though.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

aunt betty said:


> Is this approved by the USDA or FDA for use on honeybees in the USA?


Lactic acid is not an approved varroa treatment method. If you are using it to control varroa, it is not approved by the USDA or FDA, and is illegal to use in your hive.
Although, if you are using it to "calm the bees" then I would assume it would fall under a supplement, and is not regulated, therefore not legal or illegal. Much the same as Honey-B-Healthy.



aunt betty said:


> Is the honey still ok to sell?


As long as your honey hasn't been contaminated, I don't see why not.



aunt betty said:


> Do we have to buy specially labeled containers of the acid "for use on honeybees" or it's against federal law to use?


See above. There are no "specially labeled containers" to purchase.



aunt betty said:


> Is the cost comparable to using FREE pine cones in my smoker?


Not sure what you are asking. Are you asking if buying lactic acid is cheaper than using free pine cones? Obviously you know the answer to this.



aunt betty said:


> How effective on mites?


~87% efficacy rate, as compared to 93% for Oxalic, and 95% for Formic. All rounded of course.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.461.3511&rep=rep1&type=pdf

That is, those are efficacy rates for the three being used as a varroacide, as far as it's efficacy being used as a "supplement" I have no idea.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

*Apinor,*
I am wondering if anyone in your area has used lactic acid in gel type foundation soaked into a shop towel similar to Randy Oliver's recent experiment with oxalic acid (ln recent ABJ). or even in a type of grease patty. I really do not like spraying the bees with anything (just me). The bees do seem to do better in an acidic enviorment.* Question would be what does a particular acid do to the mites? And does it effect only phoretic mites unlike MAQS (formic acid).

*I think most of the supplements or additives like Hive Alive or Honey-B-Healty are acidic.


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## Apinor (May 20, 2016)

Hello.
I will try to answer your questions and understand you have to relate to FDA and USDA for your beekeeping. In Norway we use diluted lactic acid food quality. I myself am using Purac lactic acid. As fare as I know PURAC America, Inc. is an international company and the biggest producer of lactic acid in the world. Even in Europe Purac is the leading producer. The legislations can be different in US and Europe what is allowed or not. Some about the lactic acid characteristics:
- Lactic acid 80% Purac is a slightly viscous, clear as water, not volatile, make no dangerous gasses and smell slightly fruity. It will probably not work as a gel because no volatil effect. 
Direct spraying will bring the liquid to the bees and work before it will be gone during short time. Textiles dipped into the solution will probably give limited effect due to no volatile effect.
- Lactic acid is directly mixable with water, not fat soluble and of that reason can not be found as residues in the wax.
- Lactic acid 80% Purac is produced by fermentation of sugars by help of lactic acid bacteria which is wide spread on our skin, in meat products, fermented dairy products like cheese. 
- Lactic acid bacteria are wanted in our food and works in our digestion as a protection against dangerous bacteria by it`s ability to influence pH. As human beings we are totally 
addicted to lactic acid bacterias and lactic acid. 
FOR THE BEES:
- Lactic acid is a part of the honey and of that reason the bees have no problems to digest lactic acid. - Bees have a lot of different strains of lactic acid bacteria in their intestinal tract. 
This bacteria are now being studied. Substitute for antibiotics is a key word.
- Diluted lactic acid makes the bees move away from areas when it`s sprayed, like the top bars making it easy to handle the frames without killing the bees. The spraying does not harm 
the bees unlike a lot of other acids. The lactic acid sprayed on the bees will make the varroa fall off. The effect of lactic acid against varroa is a mild treatment not giving a 100% effect,
but a contribution to the varroa fighting. A spray bottle filled with diluted lactic acid will in most cases both act against varroa and have the same effect for beekeepers as the use of
smoke. If you have very aggressive bees, smoke acts better than diluted lactic acid, but then a change of queen will be the best treatment.
A lot of Norwegian beekeepers have dropped the use of smoker because it makes beekeeping easier, convenient and both the bees and beekeeper do not have to breath the smoke. The
spray bottle is always functioning and not extinguished when you need it most. When you open a hive and the whole area under the cover are completely filled up with bees, you need
only 4-5 strokes to move them all down. The quantity needed is about 4-5ml for this first action. A lot of colonies takes the hint and will not move to the top bars again during the time of
visit, but some aggressive colonies will try move up and need some more to understand. 
- This makes the visit to the hives very convenient and timesaving. The diluted lactic acid and water will be gone during short time and often before you close the hive. During your visit no
bees run around stressed and everything will soon go back to normal during minutes after closing the hive. Just wait 15 minutes and open the hive to see yourself. During the visit, the
use of diluted lactic acid will influence to the varroa infestation. I have used this tool for 19 years and use every occasion to tell about it. Now it`s your turn.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

So if I undestand correctly Apinor on every visit you spray 4-5 ml upon opening the colony. A bit more if needed. I assume that might be the case when you start pulling frames out. How many times do you visit a colony in a year 10-20 times? Then when they are broodless you use lactic again and completely spray the bees frame by frame? Others with more colonies could use oxalic, either drizzle or vaporization. This you have been doing for 19 years? I also assume that 85-90% of your colonies are alive and relatively well come spring.

Jean-Marc


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## dave w in virginia (Dec 28, 2016)

Apinor,

I wasn't familiar with lactic acid until this thread, thank you. To extend on Jean Marc's observation, could one put lactic acid in a vaporizing fogger for regular (constant?) treatment? If it is as effective at Varroa control as advertised, and doesn't contaminate the honey, why not fog the hives all summer with it? (USDA and FDA rules notwithstanding).

I am naturally a little reluctant to accept anything as a panacea, and I'm not accusing you of calling it a cure-all. But if it IS both benign and effective, entrance fogging is so fast that it raises the possibility of treating at short intervals. I'm thinking of a non-heated type of fogger that uses vaporizing technology rather than heat steaming, which seems more likely to create unwanted compounds.


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

dave w in virginia said:


> Apinor,
> 
> I wasn't familiar with lactic acid until this thread, thank you. To extend on Jean Marc's observation, could one put lactic acid in a vaporizing fogger for regular (constant?) treatment? If it is as effective at Varroa control as advertised, and doesn't contaminate the honey, why not fog the hives all summer with it? (USDA and FDA rules notwithstanding).
> 
> I am naturally a little reluctant to accept anything as a panacea, and I'm not accusing you of calling it a cure-all. But if it IS both benign and effective, entrance fogging is so fast that it raises the possibility of treating at short intervals. I'm thinking of a non-heated type of fogger that uses vaporizing technology rather than heat steaming, which seems more likely to create unwanted compounds.


Now that is an interesting idea. That is what many are turning to with oxalic acid as a delivery method but heated to sublimate the acid.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So the oa powder and glycerine post is not unwanted compound by heating either.
Why not turn this towel making method into using lactic acid instead of oa powder?


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## dave w in virginia (Dec 28, 2016)

beepro said:


> So the oa powder and glycerine post is not unwanted compound by heating either.
> Why not turn this towel making method into using lactic acid instead of oa powder?


Beepro, I think the answer to your question depends on the biological method by which lactic acid works. If it works in the same manner as OAV or powder then towels would do. But as you are probably well aware, there are many biological methods which could attack the Varroa mite and I don't know which vulnerability of Varroa is exploited by lactic acid. Maybe some of the studies cited by Apinar explain this.

Just to mention a few: it might affect respiration at some point of the Varroa life cycle, it might affect development or reproduction, motility, their use of camoflouge pheromone, ability to grasp the bees, ability to smell or see, it may damage some part of their anatomy... It could be any of a hundred different interruptions to the life cycle. It may be something the mites can evolve to resist, and it may not. I hope some smart biologists can shed some light on it. Because if it is benign, then the FDA would approve its application up to a certain level, and then it could be a good tool for effective IPM.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I found this thread and will append the publication about lactic acid efficacy.
As I am typing this, I am also drinking my fix of home-made kefir with a slice of warm fresh sourdough bread.

Now that's lactic acid - a real food and, seems to be, actually working mite treatment.



> Efficacies of Formic, Oxalic and* Lactic Acids* Against Varroa destructor in Naturally Infested Honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) Colonies in Turkey


https://www.researchgate.net/public..._Honeybee_Apis_mellifera_L_Colonies_in_Turkey


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

bump for updates

Hmm PURAC via Corbion in the US is only selling 55 gal drums.
If anyone using this in the US, has a US source with a smaller size , please offer the place you order from.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> bump for updates
> 
> Hmm PURAC via Corbion in the US is only selling 55 gal drums.
> If anyone using this in the US, has a US source with a smaller size , please offer the place you order from.
> ...


If you are asking about lactic acid (I assume so) - pretty much everyone sells it for health, cosmetic and food usages:
https://www.amazon.com/Lactic-Acid-88percent-Home-Brew/dp/B08CKR4BQS?th=1
https://www.ebay.com/b/Lactic-Acid/21022/bn_7023332848


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

What an extraordinary paper. I can understand why Formic Acid had to be applied differently to the other acids - but why on earth apply Lactic Acid as a powder, and Oxalic Acid as a liquid ?

Even more puzzling - why was *15%* lactic acid chosen, and how was this formed (i.e. what constituted the other 85%) ? I just don't see how these substances can be compared side-by-side for effectiveness unless the choice of 15% is explained.

Their results for Lactic Acid (87.7%) were lower than for Oxalic Acid (93.7%), and much lower than other trials, where Kraus and Berg found 94.2 - 99.8% efficacy with two lactic acid spray treatments in autumn.

Those figures (high 90's) for lactic acid are comparable with the most effective of *any* other Varroa treatment currently available.
LJ

Update:
I've just checked an Abstract of the Kraus and Berg paper, where a 15% *solution* of lactic acid was employed. It may be that the Turkish authors did exactly the same - and that their use of the word "pulverise" (meaning a fine powder) was due to language difficulties.

If anyone is able to gain access to a full copy of the Kraus and Berg paper, that would be extremely useful.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Bump..

Any recent experiences with lactic acid for varroa control that people can report?

From myself I know of a popular youtube blogger who uses natural whey spray (the lactic acid) routinely on his bees through the summer.
In fall he adds essential oil strips for a good measure and adds artemisia extract into his winter feed. These are his "treatments".

The guy has been running about 200 units annually - no significant losses to speak off for as long as he has been publishing his stuff.
This guy:


https://www.youtube.com/c/%D0%9F%D0%90%D0%A1%D0%95%D0%9A%D0%90%D0%92%D0%9B%D0%90%D0%94%D0%98%D0%9C%D0%98%D0%A0%D0%90%D0%96%D0%A3%D0%9A%D0%9E%D0%92%D0%90


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## sparkyApis (Apr 9, 2021)

Another paper from Ukraine in 2020 which I don't see referenced earlier in this thread.
(PDF) Study of effectiveness of lactic acid at varroatosis in the apiaries of Tyumen Region, Russia


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

sparkyApis said:


> Another paper from Ukraine in 2020 which I don't see referenced earlier in this thread.
> (PDF) Study of effectiveness of lactic acid at varroatosis in the apiaries of Tyumen Region, Russia


The on-line document has a major typo. 

The Abstract says:


> It has been found that the effectiveness of treatment of experimental bee colonies with the drug was 90.0 ± 2.1% (apiary No 1) and *7.8 ± 1.9% (apiary No 2*).


The actual PDF document says:


> The study found that under conditions of the South of Tyumen region double treatment (at 5 days intervals) of broodless bee colonies against varroatosis with 15.0% aqueous solution of lactic acid by spraying frames with bees in the volume of 5 ml on each side of the honeycomb reduces the number of Varroa mites by 90.0±2.1% (apiary No 1) and *87.8±1.9% (apiary No 2)*, respectively.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Another paper about efficacy of lactic acid (as compared to other organic acaricides):


https://www.usab-tm.ro/vol10MV/8_vol10.pdf



And one more (did not find a free version, yet):








Effect of a lactic acid treatment during winter in temperate climate upon Varroa jacobsoni Oud. and the bee (Apis mellifera L.) colony - Experimental and Applied Acarology


Three groups of bee colonies were treated with lactic acid, the pesticide Perizin or lactic acid and Perizin in order to validate the applicability of lactic acid in Varroa mite control. The lactic acid treatment was conducted during winter. Eight ml of lactic acid (15%) per comb side were...




link.springer.com


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Treated all my bees with LAC on the Nov 6/7 weekend (was into 60s, but could have been much colder too, down to 40s should have been OK).
~18% water solution.
No obvious adverse effects as of Nov 20/21 inspections.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregB said:


> Treated all my bees with LAC on the Nov 6/7 weekend (was into 60s, but could have been much colder too, down to 40s should have been OK).
> ~18% water solution.
> No obvious adverse effects as of Nov 20/21 inspections.


I am just making this post here to confirm that the end result of the late fall application of 18% LAC was good.

1)no adverse effect on the bees - confirmed
2)very good results for the bee wintering - 92% success

I write about the details starting this post and through the winter of 2021/2022
GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees. | Page 65 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

thanks Greg for you input and report.

GG


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Since we are talking about Lactic Acid I wonder if it would work as a long term sweetish sponge application similar to the OA? Does the Lactic stay sticky long term or would it need an agent such as glycerine to keep it from drying out.



crofter said:


> How much difference do you think Lactic acid makes compared to oxalic acid if used for a dribble. I have seen mention of different organic acid usage, such as citric and ascorbic etc.


I am sure that citric and ascorbic have already been debunked as possibilities or we would be using them but is there some reliable research to read up on this? I will go hunting myself on mr. google and hopefully will not get sucked into the black abyss of the internet LOL.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> Since we are talking about Lactic Acid........


Ursa, I asked the mods to move this post to the Lactic Acid thread (just more appropriate):
Stop using smoke, use diluted lactic acid. | Beesource Beekeeping Forums

Overall, let's keep out Lactic Acid talks in this dedicated thread.
Thanks!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> Since we are talking about Lactic Acid I wonder if it would work as a long term sweetish *sponge application* similar to the OA? Does the Lactic stay sticky long term or would it need an agent such as glycerine to keep it from drying out.
> ..............


Not a clue.
The only documented way to administer LA is dribble - from what I found so far.

Remember too that while pure Oxalic compound is dry crystal, the pure Lactic is liquid substance (at room temperatures)
Right there could be an important difference.

You have my permission to try the sponge!


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Personally, I'd like to know some more results from those using lactic in place of smoke, along with their preferred recipes and methods of use. 

Thanks for the 'updated bump' - I cannot believe I missed this thread, but tbh I don't spend a lot of time on line. 

Very interesting....As a beek that prefers to use just plain water upon most inspections I wanna know more about this use of lactic acid.


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## Knoxville1 (8 mo ago)

This year I had a lot of 'success' using straight water mist instead of smoke. I usually would have my smoker lit but didn;t have to use it much of the time. That's with mutts. I suppose it depends on lineage and stores etc.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregB said:


> Treated all my bees with LAC on the Nov 6/7 weekend (was into 60s, but could have been much colder too, down to 40s should have been OK).
> ~18% water solution.
> No obvious adverse effects as of Nov 20/21 inspections.


Just so it happened, this year I applied LA dribble on the same dates - Nov 5 to Nov 8th.
3-4 hives did a week earlier.
Some days it was 60s; other days it was 50s.
The same ~18% water solution.
It was my second and final treatment for 2022 (the first was OAD mid-summer).

While sitting in the car, waiting for a kid - I was reviewing this thread from the top.
I think next year I will try the weak lactic solution instead of the smoke as much as I can help it.
Really more for my own health.


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## TelmahQ (Jun 3, 2021)

drummerboy said:


> Personally, I'd like to know some more results from those using lactic in place of smoke, along with their preferred recipes and methods of use.


I have been trying it out this season. We have dry and windy conditions all the time here, so I don’t like to light the smoker if I don’t have to. I used the 10% dilution described upthread. 

It has been working well to clear bees from box edges or keep them down while I fill the feeder. I haven’t tried a full invasive inspection without smoke though. (Fire weather and robbing season align; I’m not doing those inspections anyway.)

The aroma is mildly cheesy. I can’t say that it works better at calming bees than plain water, water and some other scent, or syrup sprayed the same way. I will say that I haven’t seen the LA spray incite robbing.

I like to imagine the spray hits a mite or two.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Quick check on source in Ontario https://torontobrewing.ca/pages/search-results?q=lactic
Have not checked yet on shipping but assume they do. Amazon.ca is much too expensive.

Greg when you do the cool whether treatment to you dribble between frames or separate and spray each surface. Sorry if you have already posted this info.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> Quick check on source in Ontario https://torontobrewing.ca/pages/search-results?q=lactic
> Have not checked yet on shipping but assume they do. Amazon.ca is much too expensive.
> 
> *Greg when you do the cool whether treatment to you dribble between frames or separate and spray each surface. Sorry if you have already posted this info.*


By default - spray each surface.

Why:

because this is my full pre-winter inspection and first deep inspection for the last 2-4 months
checking/handling the brood status
checking stores
stealing excess honey
rearrange/remove frames IF have to
and spray all bee frames while handling them already
it is lactic and you are not concerned with PPE much (and I already wear glasses).
This is a very efficient, multi-target inspection - at once.
Yes - be mindful of the queen and use typical ways to be protective of her as in - don't slap frames together, obviously.

Someone locally commented - too invasive, too much work, too late in season
My response:

I am horizontal, not Lang - where in Lang double-deep you may need to handle 20 frames, I only handle 10 frames.
but also, in Lang - dribble between frames once and done; how is it too invasive? hitting bees 10 times with OAV or formic is not invasive? right....
not too much work (first inspection in 3-4 months is NOT too much work)
too late in season - conventional mythology

Few times I had issues - angry bees; broken/glued frame would not come out.
Then I generously dribbled between the frames (same as Randy O. dribbles his bees with OA - no difference).
Nothing wrong dribbling between frames IF this fits better with your circumstances/management.
With my vertical hive this is the only way to do - dribble between the frames.

Also, nothing wrong with just shifting frames sideways and spraying them at angle - no need to fully pull them out.

You don't need to be concerned with dosages too much - just *wet the bees well* and be done.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

For reference - pH values.
Weaker acid --> higher pH value.

*pH of Organic Acids – Sorted by increasing pH*


*Formula**Name**Alternative name**1 mM*​*10 mM*​*100 mM*​C2H2O4*oxalic acid*ethanedioic acid3.00​2.09​1.31​......................​​​CH2O2formic acidmethanoic acid3.47​2.91​2.38​……………………………​​​C3H6O3*lactic acid*milk acid3.51​2.96​2.44​

From: pH of Organic Acids and Salts (aqion.de)


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## Apinor (May 20, 2016)

Dear beekeepers.
It was me who started this thread many years ago and nothing has changed my mind about lactic acid. I am still using lactic acid solution in the same way as when I started using it in 1999.
As substitute for smoke, have in mind the strength of the solution: Water 90% and lactic acid 10% stirres together. The quality of liquid lactic acid is a 80% quality, that means it contains 20% of water when you buy it. If you calculate the strength of pure lactic acid 100% in this mixture, it will be exactly 8% due to the water content in the 80% you are buying. Lactic acid is a "mild" organic acid and can not be compared with formic acid, acetic acid and oxalic acid. I myself normally do not use gloves when visiting my bees. I spray the top of the frames to get rid of the bees and then take the frames up by hand for inspections and get the solution at the skin. By the use of the 9:1-solution, I do not get any skin reactions. Taste it in utility solution, it taste sour. Do not taste the 80%, it will take the skin at your tongue.
Regarding residues of lactic acid in the honey: The beekeeper society in Norway made one summer a test between by beekeepers in the same region. The use of smoker and the use of spraying lactic acid solution was compared by handling the hives in order to analyse the level of lactic acid in the honey (perhaps I have mentioned it before). The results was astonishing: The honey analysed from "smoked" hives contained more lactic acid than the honey from hives handled by help of lactic acid solution.
How much lactic acid solution do the bees get by a visit? When open the hive to get rid of the bees on top of the frames, they get about 5ml by spraying. I lift up the frame, and by setting the frames back into the hive, I spray the edge of the hive where the top bar of the frame is going to be placed in order to prevent crushing bees, just like you use the smoker. If I calculate the quantity each bee hive will get by each visit, it will be in the level of 28-30ml solution or 2,2-2,4gram pure 100% lactic acid. The level and concentration is fare too low to get an effective varroa treatment, but as an alternative for the smoker it works fine. If you have very calm bees, you can spray pure water, but my Buckfast bees normally do not take the hint.
A lot of you ask for more information, but regarding the use, read what I have written in in previous posts and you will hopefully find the answers or you will find a lot of info in Internet.


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## Snarge (May 4, 2015)

Apinor said:


> In 1998 I stoped using smoke when treating my 35 hives. At that time we got varroa in my region, and beekeepers were reccomended to use a lactic acid treatment to control the varroa level. Recipe: Lactic acid 80% is mixed with water, 10% of this lactic acid + 90% of tap water added. We use a spray bottle able to spray also in horisontal position. http://www.relekta.no/Default.aspx?ID=2246&ProductID=PROD403 This spray bottle is as made for varroa treatment with oxalic acid + sugar brine.
> By using this acid treatment, I saw that the bees behaved in the same way as if I used smoker, but they are not stressed. I dropped the smoker and have used the acid sprayng since then. Benefits: No smoke containing 40 cancerogen gasses, no irritation and no smoke to breath, the bees are calm and not stressed, this "smoker" is always fired and by using the acid solution, the number of varroa is limited and can be kept in a low level just by spraying the bees in the same way as you are using your smoker. Analysis done of honey taken from hives treated by use of lactic solution, they contain less lactic acid than hives treated by use of smoker. Lactic acid is a organic acid and a natural part of honey. A lot of food contains lactic acid which is used as preservativ and pH regulator.
> Try this aid and you can combine interventions of the hives with fighting varroa. On top you protect your health and make the beekeeping plesanter. The use of smokers in Norway are decreasing and more beekeepers are changing to lactic acid spraying, mainly because of more convenient in use than smoker.
> 
> ...


Morten

Please disregard my question about spraying with lactic acid on your other thread. I realize that you explain it very well here. Thank you. I am going to try it.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Apinor said:


> Dear beekeepers.
> It was me who started this thread many years ago and nothing has changed my mind about lactic acid. I am still using lactic acid solution in the same way as when I started using it in 1999.
> As substitute for smoke, have in mind the strength of the solution: ............
> A lot of you ask for more information, but regarding the use, read what I have written in in previous posts and you will hopefully find the answers or you will find a lot of info in Internet.


Hi Apinor,
Here is a question still - did you compare lactic acid to simple water as substitute for smoke?
And if *yes*, do you confirm of a significant positive difference for the acid?
What is the actual difference?

I myself and many others also - we commonly use just regular water in a sprayer bottle to work the bees (granted the bees as sufficiently peaceful).
Why would I substitute water for lactic acid (which I then need to repeatedly buy)?

I could test this myself just as well, but I imagine you would have already tested the same.
Thanks.


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

GregB said:


> By default - spray each surface.
> .... - no need to fully pull them out.
> 
> You don't need to be concerned with dosages too much - just *wet the bees well* and be done.


When you spray, you have liquid particles in the air. 
The aerosols are inhaled subconsciously and thus reach the respiratory tract, where they have local effects, but are also partly absorbed by your body. 
I have sprayed the oxalic acid. The 3M Particulate Filter P100, 2097, were wet after 3 hives were done (66 Frames).


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

sjj said:


> I have sprayed the *oxalic *acid.


sjj

this thread is about Lactic acid.

did you have a typo or are you posting Oxalic info in a Lactic thread?

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

sjj said:


> When you spray, you have liquid particles in the air.
> The aerosols are inhaled subconsciously and thus reach the respiratory tract, where they have local effects, but are also partly absorbed by your body.
> I have sprayed the oxalic acid. The 3M Particulate Filter P100, 2097, were wet after 3 hives were done (66 Frames).


1) we are talking about Lactic Acid (LA), NOT Oxalic Acid (OA)
2) we are talking about dribble, NOT spray

Dribble <> spray (much larger droplets are delivered).
Even if using a common household spray bottle, those droplets are large and don't really create true aerosole.

Though in summer I also apply weak OA using the spray bottle.


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## Apinor (May 20, 2016)

GregB said:


> Hi Apinor,
> Here is a question still - did you compare lactic acid to simple water as substitute for smoke?
> And if *yes*, do you confirm of a significant positive difference for the acid?
> What is the actual difference?
> ...


Hi GregB.
Yes, I have tested tap water compared to lactic acid solution. If you have very calm bees, for sure you can use pure water, but then the bees will return to the top of the frames after a while and you probably will kill some of them even if they are calm. If you use 10% of lactic acid (conc. 80%) in water, the bees will not return to the top bars during the inspection. They smell the acid and avoid returning to the top bars. You work quickly and do not have to confront them. Not all of the hives are calm in every weather conditions. They can stay calm with some deviations until time for harvesting the honey. Then suddenly they do not accept to be opened and the mood is changed, fighting and stinging. Generally, the lactic acid solution calm down even the fighters to a level which makes them able to handle. The fighters are normally not possible to control with water alone, and you have to resign or fire the smoker. That's why I always use the lactic acid solution, also because a lot of my inspections are done in the evenings when all bees are at home.
Pictures: Just opened a strong hive. Not easy to work with this one directly. They get 4 sprays and leave the top of the hive during about 15 seconds. Now it is easy to work, and the bees stays away. If they try to return, another sprays are given.


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## Snarge (May 4, 2015)

Apinor

I just received my lactic acid in the mail and am eager to try it instead of smoke next spring.

I have always had my smoker fired up in the past, not because the bees are mean, but to gently ease them out of the way from being squished and, possibly, from spreading disease. I will also feel healthier not breathing in smoke.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

Apinor said:


> Hi GregB.
> Yes, I have tested tap water compared to lactic acid solution. If you have very calm bees, for sure you can use pure water, but then the bees will return to the top of the frames after a while and you probably will kill some of them even if they are calm. If you use 10% of lactic acid (conc. 80%) in water, the bees will not return to the top bars during the inspection. They smell the acid and avoid returning to the top bars. You work quickly and do not have to confront them. Not all of the hives are calm in every weather conditions. They can stay calm with some deviations until time for harvesting the honey. Then suddenly they do not accept to be opened and the mood is changed, fighting and stinging. Generally, the lactic acid solution calm down even the fighters to a level which makes them able to handle. The fighters are normally not possible to control with water alone, and you have to resign or fire the smoker. That's why I always use the lactic acid solution, also because a lot of my inspections are done in the evenings when all bees are at home.
> Pictures: Just opened a strong hive. Not easy to work with this one directly. They get 4 sprays and leave the top of the hive during about 15 seconds. Now it is easy to work, and the bees stays away. If they try to return, another sprays are given.
> View attachment 72087
> ...


I have to laugh at myself, anyway. I tried the dilute lactic solution and it wasn't too effective at chasing down the bees. Furthermore, I have always gently lifted the hive cover and blown a little smoke over the hive prior to opening for inspection, Not doing this often results in getting 'buzzed'. Switching entirely to lactic seems not a viable solution for me. I do hope it helps with the varroa, but I have my doubts.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Apinor said:


> Hi GregB.
> Yes, I have tested tap water compared to lactic acid solution.
> ................


Thanks for the detailed response.
Will try in spring!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Snarge said:


> Apinor
> 
> I just received my lactic acid in the mail and am eager to try it instead of smoke next spring.
> .............


Just keep in mind Apinor uses 80% stock.
You most likely purchased 88% stock (common in USA).

Per Apinor, you'd want to use 10% solution as "liquid smoke".


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## Snarge (May 4, 2015)

GregB said:


> Just keep in mind Apinor uses 80% stock.
> You most likely purchased 88% stock (common in USA).
> 
> Per Apinor, you'd want to use 10% solution as "liquid smoke".


Good point Greg

It is 88% concentration. I’ll dilute accordingly.


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## Apinor (May 20, 2016)

Gino45 said:


> I have to laugh at myself, anyway. I tried the dilute lactic solution and it wasn't too effective at chasing down the bees. Furthermore, I have always gently lifted the hive cover and blown a little smoke over the hive prior to opening for inspection, Not doing this often results in getting 'buzzed'. Switching entirely to lactic seems not a viable solution for me. I do hope it helps with the varroa, but I have my doubts.





Gino45 said:


> I have to laugh at myself, anyway. I tried the dilute lactic solution and it wasn't too effective at chasing down the bees. Furthermore, I have always gently lifted the hive cover and blown a little smoke over the hive prior to opening for inspection, Not doing this often results in getting 'buzzed'. Switching entirely to lactic seems not a viable solution for me. I do hope it helps with the varroa, but I have my doubts.


I do agree with you: If it does not work for you, just use the smoker. If it works, use it- it`s a way out of the smoking. I dropped my smoker in 1999 and haven`t fired it since. Why should I? The sprayer "burns" every time I want to use it, it gives no smoke to my astma, it needs no time for firing, it is no risk for forest fires, fire in the car what ever. Also I do not smoke 40 canserogenic gasses down to my friends, the bees, which stresses them a lot. In Norway where I am living, a lot of beekeepers have dropped the smoker using either pure water or diluted lactic acid solution. And it works for most of them.


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## Apinor (May 20, 2016)

GregB said:


> Just keep in mind Apinor uses 80% stock.
> You most likely purchased 88% stock (common in USA).
> 
> Per Apinor, you'd want to use 10% solution as "liquid smoke".


I will remember your available qualituay is the 88%. If you use 1:9 of the 88%, you will det a better response.


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