# Handling Breeder Queens...



## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

For all of you out there that have been at it for a long time...or even a shorter time, in the Queen rearing and /or breeding...what is your favorite/practical/successful way of getting the Breeder Queens you either buy or produce yourself, to start laying and be under a "controlled" management so that one is able to graft from on a regular basis? Type of living arrangements for the Breeder Queen...nuc? One body hive? Deep or medium frames? Confined in a Pritchard type of box/cassette or just free roaming in the hive?
What worked and what did not work in your case? Why do you think that is? What did you change to make it better?
Thanks everyone for your input! 
P.S. if this topic has already been covered, could someone direct me to the thread? Thanks again.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Commercial queen breeders keep their breeder queens in many different hive configurations right up to a normal hive.

But generally they are kept in a small hive of some kind. If it's a tested breeder, which means it is one that has been run in a production hive for a year before being chosen as a breeder, it is a very valuable insect and should be kept in a small hive because it is already a year old and if it only has to lay a small number of eggs it will live longer, and in a small hive it will be less likely the bees will supersede it.

The breeder hives I used to use the queen was confined in a compartment where she could only lay in two combs, both around 4 inches square. A small piece of comb foundation was hung between those two combs each day so the bees would draw that foundation and the queen lay eggs in it, so new eggs daily to graft from. Now I keep my breeders in a similar hive but don't blank out part of the combs, the breeder has access to two full deep combs.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't spend any money on "breeder queens", I breed from all of mine that I think are doing well. They are usually in a hive. I often reduce the hive down just to make it easier to find larvae to graft etc. so it's often a medium sized hive (like two eight frame mediums). How can I judge how well the queen does if I don't let her head a colony?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Don't know. Unless you just assume it's OK because of known genetics. However this is getting more complex. Me, I just choose them after a year in a production colony.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

In my limited experience, I really like having my breeders on half size deep frames. I can manage colonies on them by simply converting an 8 or 10 frame deep box with a divider that will hold up one end of the frames.( Before assembly, I run the long side of the box on the router to make a shelf to hold the other end of the mini frames ) Other side of the divider remains empty unless I have an interior feeder. They will never go over to the other side and make a mess. Even when three deeps high and at the point of swarming. I do find dead drones there on occasion though. I assume they were thrown out of the hive and congregated there and starved to death.
Here is a mating nuc nuc sized cluster in a 10 frame deep:










Here is why I like the breeder on these frames. They are mostly fresh comb and nicley arranged. Easy to graft from and perhaps more important, removal of a half sized frame is much less intrusive to the colony than taking out a full sized frame. You just take out a very small portion. 










I regularly insert a new frames with black rite cell, actually checkerboarding above the broodnest somewhat aggressively depending on the time of year and they draw them out quite quickly. The queens love the new comb and frequently lay in them before they are even completely drawn at times. When the comb gets a bit tough and full of capped brood and stores, they get distributed to the mini mating nucs-which hold five frames.

Here is a standard sized deep frame I took grafts from two days in a row..Had to wait another day for the remaining eggs to hatch. You can see the upper right portion, overnight they have already repaired much of the comb, and even started a few queen cells on the disturbed area. My next grafts were taken from the left area. My point is, a half sized frame is plenty for a graft doner. It's not like a deep frame is heavy or hard to handle, but the half frame is easier..LOL










I have made a lot of experimental equipment. Some had worked, some has not. But this 10 frame deep modification works amazingly well and is very versitile. It will also hold 6 standard deep frames. Even when stacked, although the frames are going different directions. they do not make a mess. I only run the frames this way in the fall if I need to add more feed to the hive and don't have enough half frames filled with feed to do it. Come spring, the queens have accessed all frames with no issues. 









Here is the same box with the deep standard frames:









When my mating nucs are done for the season, I combine two or three of them in this box, feed them and let them grow and prepare for winter. They winter very well. I have even overwintered a colony as small as the one you see in the first photo. I didn't have the guts to try many of these this size last year, but will do it again this year.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

As an example of how I choose my queens for grafting, when in the mating nuc's I only keep those newly mated queens when they impress me right from the start. When I open up the nuc for a check and my first thought is "WHOA" they are potential keepers. My line of queens from a swarm I collected in 2011, I evaluate differently from my Glenn line. The swarm line are huge at hatching time and start laying a full week earlier than any other line I have. 

The Glenns are a little smaller at hatching time and slower to lay, but when they get going they are absolutly amazing. I know my lines well enough to be able to judge their future performance pretty well and make allowances for their genetic predisposition.

Keepers are moved to a larger hive to continue to grow, then overwintered. 
These colonies are reevaluated in late winter for many factors. Growth, interior hive organization, efficiency of stored resources, efficiency of incoming resources, gentle manor, health, mite resistance, etc. I just get a gut feeling about the hives and go with it. Those that impress me all winter long are at the top of the list for grafting.

This five frame mating nuc grew over fall and winter months to 6 deep box's high by late April. It had everything I look for for a breeder hive. It was getting so large and hard to get into for regular monitoring for swarm behavior, I chose to move the queen and a few box's to a different bench. I left five frames of brood and stores at the old location as you see in this photo:








Letting the foragers fly back to this location, (Above photo was taken before foragers flew back)











I let them start their own queen cells. LOL. Here's what happened next. 
Apparently they HAD been thinking about swarming, because this small colony made several huge swarm cells. I was surprised to see a small swarm coming from this little hive. When I checked, the remaining colony it had a newly hatched virgin residing and a few VERY large capped swarm cells still in tact. I moved the frames with queen cells to mini mating nucs, left the remaining few frames and new virgin with the hive and caught the cast swarm and place them with their virgin in another mating nuc! Wholly cow! I'm glad I moved that queen when I did
Here is that little cast swarm. High in the maple tree above the hive. Thanks to my husband, I was able to retrieve it and hive the little buggers.










I got four or five nice queens out of the deal and kept my original queen for future grafting.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Thanks everyone for the replies.

*Lauri*, thanks for the detailed pictures and explanations. Always looking forward to your postings. I am a fan...

*Oldtimer*, if I remember correctly, there was another thread in which you had a link with pictures on building a Queen excluder enclosure for breeder queens. Is that the type of arrangement that limits the Queen to the 2 combs you mention? 
Can't find it now...could you provide a link please? Many thanks.

*Mr. Bush*, I understand your take on your breeder queens... Certainly...queens that do well and not only survive but thrive...in your neck of the woods...and end up leading hives that give the beekeeper the "expected" results. Understood.
Like *Oldtimer* said...either a bought one, or a made in house breeder Queen, "it is a very valuable insect". 

It makes sense that one would limit the space the Queen spends her time in and there is a lot of material covered in books on the issue. I appreciate the individual take on the process...so again, thanks.

Not to jump off topic, but when one calls a queen, a breeder queen...I assume, there is some degree of certainty to what type of drone semen that Queen carries for the rest of her life. The only way I know of controlling that, is either via isolated mating areas, overly saturated areas with desired drones, or AI/II. The few ones out there that sell breeder queens...at least the ones I am aware of, sell II/AI breeder queens.
So for those of you that do make "in house" breeder queens, which way do you go about controlling/influencing the drone side of the equation? I know *Lauri *had some Glenn Apiary breeder, that more than likely was an II Queen.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Wow Lauri that was a fascinating post and pics. What is your cell raising system?



apis maximus said:


> when one calls a queen, a breeder queen...I assume, there is some degree of certainty to what type of drone semen that Queen carries for the rest of her life..........So for those of you that do make "in house" breeder queens, which way do you go about controlling/influencing the drone side of the equation? I know *Lauri *had some Glenn Apiary breeder, that more than likely was an II Queen.


There's a lot of ideas on this subject but my take on using a naturally mated 1 year tested breeder, is that the genetics of both the queen and the drones she mated with are represented in the offspring, and it is the offspring that have been running the hive for a year that made you choose that hive to breed from. The problem with this that is hard to get away from, is the queen will have mated with many drones, so although the hive has performed well, the individual bees will vary slightly from each other, so therefore the queens you breed from that queen will also vary from each other. What I do, and it's about all you can do, is make sure the bees in the hive you choose to breed from look uniform. If they look different, of course the queens produced from it will also be quite different. This is less than perfect I know but it's about all you can do with a naturally mated queen. When I worked for a large honey producer, we had several different lines, and the line was written on the inner cover of each hive. We did not use II, so for breeder selection, any hive that met all the criterion was noted, but also, we selected those that were true to type for that line. So because there were thousands of hives, there would always be some that had mated right, best we could tell.

AI/II gets around this problem, in some II based breeding programs the queen is only inseminated from one drone, to ensure uniformity of the desired characteristics. Of course that queen is not going to last long, but she will produce offspring that are again bred from, the end goal being the fixing of some desired characteristic. Not sure what Glenn did, but most likely they would have inseminated queens they sold with semen from several drones, but the semen would have been homogenised before insemination to get even distribution, ie, the queen would not move to predominantly one or other drones semen during her life. This might be different to what they did inside their own breeding program but I don't know.

Here's a link to the page of that thread with a pic of the breeder hive I use, post 118.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...lls-Without-Grafting/page6&highlight=grafting


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Thank you apis maximus. Just trying to do my part to help.

Oldtimer, I graft and use the grid, depending on the condition of the comb the larva is on and the amount of cells I want to produce at any one time.
I prefer to graft though. I get the graft in the starter immediately without having to wait four days.

What I call my breeder queens are open mated now.Most of my original breeder queens were II, but they have been superceded, some very soon after their introduction to the hive. My only Glenn line I kept was the Carniolan /VSH. 

I like the daughters better anyway. 

My swarm queen did have many different genetics. Her daughters are six distinct colors ranging from pure black, blond, blond with tiger tail, chocolate and black striped and dusky They all hatch out large, start laying early and perform prolifically. Big Momma must have had some homozygous dominant genes she contributed. We'll see how the G2 and G3 daughters compare next year .


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I use a 10 frame box with a vertical excluder that creates 2 cavities. One 6 frame that has access to the outside, and one 3 frame that has none. The queen is kept in the 3 frame compartment. 

The breeder is taken from a production colony in a strong nuc. This nuc is installed in the breeder box with the queen in her compartment. 4.5-5 days before grafting, a grafting comb...dark worker comb...is given to the queen, against the excluder. The remaining 2 frames should be full of something...so she lays in the new comb. This can be honey, or brood that won't emerge in the next two or three days.

4 days later another grafting comb is given. The comb at the side wall is moved to the far side of the excluder, the remaining two are moved over and another grafting comb is placed against the excluder. Repeat every 4 days.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I would like to read the above posting with the typo corrected.... "$.5-5 days before grafting"


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Nice one Mike, didn't know your breeder hives and mine are so similar!  The only management difference being in frame manipulation because you graft, and I cut.

I see you even write the time on your frames, to the minute!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> I see you even write the time on your frames, to the minute!


A learning process


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We use a couple of "baskets" a bit like MP is doing but have two vertical excluders creating two 3 comb laying areas (for two different queens) and a 3 comb common area in the middle. Not organized enough to break it down to the minute though. . We just rotate an empty brood comb in every 4th day and make sure a queen dosent hop over the excluder when you aren't looking. The rest of our breeders are excluded singles where we insert a brood comb in the center every 5th day (seems to take an extra day in those). The "baskets" work far better once they are set up. When you are done with them just transfer them into a single as you would a 3 comb nuc.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

I now use the same method as Mike Palmer. Just not to the minute. I use to use a one frame set up with excluder on one side like Jim Lyon mentioned, but I also found it would take 5 days to get grafting larvae especially if I washed the frame out after grafting and then reused that frame.

questions: Mike do you let the bees clean the new grafting frame before you give it to the queen (ie. put it in the 6 frame side of the breeder box a couple days ahead of time.) Do you wash out the unused larvae after grafting to reuse the same frame? I don't seem to have enough dark frames to graft to if I don't reuse them.
Thanks
Jim


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Flyer Jim said:


> questions: Mike do you let the bees clean the new grafting frame before you give it to the queen (ie. put it in the 6 frame side of the breeder box a couple days ahead of time.) Do you wash out the unused larvae after grafting to reuse the same frame? I don't seem to have enough dark frames to graft to if I don't reuse them.
> Thanks
> Jim


I don't wash out the combs. I don't let the bees clean and warm the comb. Allowing 5 days takes care of that. Sometimes I can use a comb from the queen less chamber after the brood emerges...if they haven't filled it with pollen and nectar.

I save perfect grafting combs during the year, as I find them. My help has been told...hands off!


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

thanks Mike. I just wanted to let you know I've been on your 8 step program doubling up after the second week, for 2 1/2 months. I fell off the wagon the 1st of June when the weather got really hot. I need some fall queens, so last Monday I started my 1,5 2,6 3,7 4,8 again. This was just kind of a challenge to see if I could keep up the program. I've been averaging 25 queens every round. 
Jim


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Exhausting isn't it Jim. Just had the second catch on Monday...117 of 128. Third catch tomorrow.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

yes, but it's kind of fun. you know what you're doing every day. The reason for only 25 a round is that I ran out of nucs. This winter I plan on building a lot more. I think I've got the system down now. I did give away quite a few cells that I didn't have nucs to put them in. This year was practice...next year big time. 
Jim


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> Exhausting isn't it Jim. Just had the second catch on Monday...117 of 128. Third catch tomorrow.


117 of 128? Wow. My saying in queen catching is 90% is actually 100%. It's the best you can reasonably expect.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

I keep my breeders in 5 frame nucs. Most of the time there are only 3 frames drawn out. 2 brood and 1 honey/pollen. As fall time approaches I let them build up a bit and put 5 frames of drawn comb on top some with honey some empty for them to fill. They overwinter like this in 10 frames. 

Most times I am only needing 25 to 40 larva from each breeder and have no problem getting this amount the way I have mine set up. If one breeder doesn't have enough larvae I just get it from the next. If I were needing a bunch at a time I would do it exactly like Michael Palmer is doing with an empty comb going in 5 days before graft day. I try to keep the breeders from laying to much so they hopefully last a little longer.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

That's the truth Jim. I book on 80, am satisfied with 90, and ecstatic with 100 or more...from128 mating nucs.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> I book on 80, am satisfied with 90, and ecstatic with 100 or more...from128 mating nucs.


*Mr. Palmer*, thanks for your input ! Is that hive in the picture a medium or a deep?
I bet you can't make them fast enough for your own needs and the sales you make.
How many weeks in the year are you grafting and raising queens? 
Probably off topic by now...but, are you at any time, feeding your breeder hives that have the breeder queens in them? If yes, even during a flow? How about your starters or your finishers?
I like the idea of collecting and keeping the right comb for the breeder queens to lay in. 

*Flyer Jim* mentions your 8 step program...what is that?

Thanks again everyone!

Out to plant some Q cells in my mating nucs


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Mike explains the 8 step program very well in this thread

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ous-on-Commerical-Queen-Rearing-Yard-Rotation


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

apis maximus said:


> *Mr. Palmer*, thanks for your input ! Is that hive in the picture a medium or a deep?
> I bet you can't make them fast enough for your own needs and the sales you make.
> How many weeks in the year are you grafting and raising queens?
> Probably off topic by now...but, are you at any time, feeding your breeder hives that have the breeder queens in them? If yes, even during a flow? How about your starters or your finishers?
> I like the idea of collecting and keeping the right comb for the breeder queens to lay in.


The breeder hive has deep frames.

I do pretty well in the numbers. We harvest 128 mating nucs every four days. I keep a minimum of 50 from each catch, often 75. We make nucs from them, so by the middle of July we've made 500. Queens pulled from the over-wintered mating nucs go to requeening production colonies. 

I set up my first cell builders on May 5 this year, and will finish catching queen about the first week of August. Total production is about 1200.

My breeder hives are never fed...I give them a frame of honey if there's no flow. 

I certainly feed cell builders...you can't raise quality cells without a flow and to insure the flow never stops you feed cell builders. I don't feed the mating nucs unless there's no flow. Then we fill the feeder once.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Thanks again *Mr. Palmer* for taking your time to reply. Great stuff!

One more question if you don't mind, to help me clarify this in my head...:scratch:

In a previous thread on cell builders, you have described your method adapted from bro Adam...You stated the following in it:

"*On day 11, in the morning, remove the super and cell builder from above the excluder. Rotate the queen-right part 180 degrees and onto the ground...facing backwards. Place a clean bottom board on stand facing original direction. Place the partially filled super on the bottom board and the cell builder on the super."*

Does the queen-right part, once rotated 180 degrees backwards, is also slided/moved on the ground from the original location and in its place the future cell builder is placed on the new bottom board? 

Once done, the queen-right part of the colony is side by side with the cell builder, or close enough, and facing backwards?

It sounds like it is the case, and all its worker bees will go to the original location where now, the cell builder is located. Right?

*Michael Palmer*: "*Why do I like this method? It's all about the jelly*."

Yes indeed! Thank you sir!


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## samsungpizza (Mar 28, 2012)

The breeder is taken from a production colony in a strong nuc.
MP, Do you requeen this hive using one from your mating nucs? Curious. Thanks.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I usually let them raise their new queen.


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

Michael, you said you produce around 1200 queens per summer grafting every 4 days, 128 nucs per round. How many breeders are you grafting from? A different one every graft or multiple per graft. 

I graft once per week for 144 nucs per week. I am running 8 cell builders and use 4 different breeders per week. That way when you buy queens they are probably not all sisters.

Johnny


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

4 cell builders grafted into every 4 days. Total of 20 cell builders in various stages. Cell builders get used again giving me a batch of cells every 20 days. I use several breeders through the cell building season, grafting from the ones that have larvae of the proper age on grafting day. I write the breeder number on the back of each cage so I can give each beekeeper a mix.


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