# Tylan Extender Patties



## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Why do you feed antibiotics, are your bees sick, or do you like to make the AFB resistant against antibiotic?
Do you take medications just in case you can catch a disease?


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Why do you feed antibiotics, are your bees sick? Some yes, I removed scale infected comb and will now treat!

Do you like to make the AFB resistant against antibiotic? No, but since my bees go to CA for almonds and 1,000's of colonies are in reach of each other I don't have a choice but to treat!

Do you take medications just in case you can catch a disease? No, but our gov. does. Flu shots, mandatory chicken pox vac. for kids, etc.

Now back to my OP!


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

Axtmann said:


> Why do you feed antibiotics, are your bees sick, or do you like to make the AFB resistant against antibiotic?
> Do you take medications just in case you can catch a disease?


How do you make foulbrood resistant if you dont have any and if you dont have it and never will want do you care if there are resistant strains? Beeslave I'm with you but still use Terramycin.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

If your bees coming from California with AFB, your antibiotic treatment is useless, it doesn’t kill AFB spores. 

You’re hiding the disease and spread them all over in your area, not only in your own bee yard.

Soon or later several other beekeepers, in the flying range of your bees (3km) drones (up to 30km) will have a big problem. 
You can’t save your bees from AFB with antibiotic; spores are in old combs and food. You prevent the outbreak in your bee yard for a short time and eventually it overruns all your hives. Instead of destroying the spores, it piles them up and when there millions of spores per drop of honey you will loose everything, not only the sick colony.

What is a scale infected comb? Sorry, I never heard about this kind of disease. What is the common name for it?

AFB is easy to detect, sunken cells with a little hole, terrible smell. Go in the cells with a toothpick, with AFB there is a slimy substance in it. 

The ONLY treatment in this situation is fire.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Danno, we also have AFB in Germany, but the use of antibiotics in food production is against the law. If they find out that a beekeeper use this, they are in a big trouble. You end up in cord and you are previously convicted, it also cost you a lot of money and you never will get the permit back for selling honey. 

With the possibility they have now, they can detect even 1ppb.

Because of antibiotics in honey from North Amerika, there is an import ban on it.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

One bottle + 50 pounds of confectioners sugar + 500 doses.
I got the ratio frome a retailer.
Ernie


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

I don't need mix directions for dusting method. I need extender patty recipe using tylan, shortening and powder sugar.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Here is one:
http://ressources.ciheam.org/om/pdf/b25/99600235.pdf
Ernie


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks Ernie. Still not exactly what I was looking for but a very good read. I do believe I have it figured out though.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Here is a study done in FL in 2002
Abstract
The method of application of the antibiotic tylosin (Tylan) for control of oxytetracycline-resistant American foulbrood (Paenibacillus larvae White) was tested in honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) colonies. A powdered sugar mixture with tylosin, applied as a dust, was efficacious in eliminating American foulbrood symptoms at a rate of 200-mg Tylan per 20 g of powdered sugar, applied at weekly intervals for 3 weeks. A second method of treatment consisting of Tylan mixed with granulated sugar and vegetable shortening and applied once as a patty, at an equivalent total dose as the dust method, to diseased colonies also effectively eliminated symptoms of disease. In all colonies treated with patties, however, small hive beetle (Aethina tumida Murray) populations significantly increased, compared with the powder sugar method or untreated controls. Bee populations in patty-treated colonies also were significantly reduced, most likely the result of the invasion and proliferation of adult and larval small hive beetles. Such reduction in colony strength was not seen in dust-treated colonies. Because of the obvious damaging populations of small hive beetles, concerns about development of disease resistance, unknown risks of residues, and lack of support by regulatory agencies for the use of the patty method, the use of the dust method of tylosin is greatly favored over the patty method.

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1603/0022-0493(2002)095[1119:MOAOTA]2.0.CO;2


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How do you keep the Tylan in an extender patty stable? Won't it break down into some other chemical during the time that it takes the bees to consume it?

Aren't "extender pattys", in general, considered a contributor to the development of resistant AFB strains?

If you are going to treat w/ Tylan, what is wrong w/ the dusting method of applying the treatment?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Beeslave said:


> A powdered sugar mixture with tylosin, applied as a dust, was efficacious in eliminating American foulbrood symptoms ...


Eliminating symptoms doesn't mean the same thing as eliminating the disease.

Is the application of Tylan to diseased colonies an approved method of AFB "control" in any states? Are there any Apiary Inspection Programs that identify AFB in hives and recommend treatment w/ Tylan, rather than burning the bees and equipment?


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Won't it break down into some other chemical during the time that it takes the bees to consume it?

No, the shortening and sugar are carriers.
The sugar is to make it attractive to the bees and the shortening, Crisco?, is to slow down the consumption.
Ernie


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

With antibiotics you can hide the symptoms for a while but you can’t prevent the outbreak soon or later. 
It looks like some have a bad attitude, “if I have the disease, other should have it too”.

There is NO OTHER approved method to eliminate the AFB worldwide than fire or radiation.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

ETO works too.
I Canada they have portables units that you can sign up for treating the dead outs.
Ozone generators are used too.
Hot dipping in paraffin is also used to kil the spores of FB.
Ernie


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Axtmann said:


> With antibiotics you can hide the symptoms for a while but you can’t prevent the outbreak soon or later.
> It looks like some have a bad attitude, “if I have the disease, other should have it too”.
> 
> There is NO OTHER approved method to eliminate the AFB worldwide than fire or radiation.


Axtmann, I am with you on this but as you can see you are preaching to deaf ears and they will have to experience it themselves. These chemical companies spend mucho dinero on convincing people their products work and most don't need much convincing so it sells and they use it. Maybe this is one reason why we can't get ahead of this and see the outbreaks again and again and again every time we move bees to Calf and back and in areas where there was no AFB there now is :doh:.

Ref: above...no slight to Calf. beeks they can't help it if others coming for pollination bring all sorts of things to the groves.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BEES4U said:


> Won't it break down into some other chemical during the time that it takes the bees to consume it?
> 
> No, the shortening and sugar are carriers.
> The sugar is to make it attractive to the bees and the shortening, Crisco?, is to slow down the consumption.
> Ernie


So what about what I have heard, that Tylosin takes longer to break down than TM and therefore shows up in the honey more easily. What does it break down into, something worse?

Isn't the Crisco/oil to also treat against mites? The oil gets on the bees bodies and amkes it hard for the mites to get a footing?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

alpha6 said:


> Axtmann, I am with you on this but as you can see you are preaching to deaf ears and they will have to experience it themselves.


Just so you know which camp to put me in, I burn whatever cases of AFB that I find in my outfit and haven't used TM for years. And haven't used Tylosin.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Tylosin is really different also in that it eliminates symptoms on a level far beyond tetracycline.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Just so you know which camp to put me in, I burn whatever cases of AFB that I find in my outfit and haven't used TM for years. And haven't used Tylosin.


NY...dang yankee...I know what camp to put you in.  For the record I bought out an old beeks stuff which had everything you can imagine in them. He never changed out his comb and had every disease known to beekeeping in the 60 or so years he kept bees. I figured that if he could keep going that long how bad could the comb be. Big mistake. Lots of problems and money later I ended up burning all the frames. Now with new frames and comb bees are doing fantastic. I think more commercial guys are catching on. Better to throw on a little feed and have them draw out new comb then keep fighting to fix old comb. Besides if you order in bulk Pierco is running less then a buck a frame...can't beat that plus no work involved in putting it together.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

How about the wild feral colonies? Who treats them? No one, so AFB is everywhere! To many people get into beekeeping to "do there part" and keep pollinators in their area. Too many people preaching chemical free(I would but my bees feed my family!) so the "newbees" do just that. They know very little about bees(and even less about "signs" of disease) and are also a cause(of several causes) to the problem. So that said, I will use preventive treatments. Now unless every asspect of your life and lifestyle is 100% chem and pollutant free, all natural everything please preach to someone else cuz I'm just trying to keep food on the table and looking for a recipe!!!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Aren't "extender pattys", in general, considered a contributor to the development of resistant AFB strains?

Exactly. They are no longer recommended, even by people who believe in using antibiotics, for that reason.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

That's why I am looking for the "correct" recipe that the bees will consume in a 3-4 week time period recieving the proper dosage and not stored away like they would when fed to them in syrup to be consumed over long period. I've used the "dusting" method for preventive treatment since I started bees and now running 900 hives and extracting, doing all the work myself I'm trying to optimize my time and be "Greener" by saving fuel, time and energy. From what I've read AFB is in most hives at a microscopic level but under times of stress it can come out in levels seen by the beekeeper( affected brood).


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

Beeslave keep up your work to find a better way. I am amazed by how people on this forum can give advice for not doing something but do not rely on beekeeping as their main income source. They do not understand and they do not care if you fail because it does not effect them or their wallets.

If I was going to lose my 500 hives to a disease I would find a way to treat it.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Donations wanted- Goal $200,000- Reason-Burning 900 hives and 2,500 supers. I will absorb the $50,000+ on top of the 200k for restocking hardware,bees, lost production etc. .


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

:thumbsup: Let us know how it works out. There was never any proof about extender patties causing resistance, just speculation.
And we never saw any afb when we used the TM grease patties.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

American foulbrood (AFB) is one of the most important beekeeping diseases. It is caused by the spore-forming bacterium, Bacillus larvae. The spores are resistant to heat and drought and can remain dormant many years.

For decades, the use of bee inspection and fire in combination were the only things used to fight American foulbrood until antibiotics came along. Now, Terramycin® a tetracycline product, is labelled and used extensively to control the disease. There is evidence, however, that the bacterium can become resistant to antibiotics. This has been seen in Argentina. 

The use of extender patties to administer Terramycin® has provided another possibility as noted by the following message posted to the Bee-L Discussion list: 

Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 12:55:53 -0800
From: "Kerry Clark of AGF 784-2225 fax (604) 784 2299" 
Subject: Re: antibiotic resistant AFB

The spores of the bacteria that causes AFB (Bacillus larvae) are viable for decades. A couple of years ago, the susceptibility to oxytetracycline HCL (the active ingredient of Terramycin®) of cultures from old spores (1924) was compared to the susceptibility of cultures from current (1994) spores. 

Shuimanuki H and D. Knox. 1994. Susceptibility of Bacillus larvae to Terramycin. ABJ Vol 134 No 2 p 125-126. 

Current AFB was found to be just as susceptible as old-time AFB. That result seems better than should have been hoped for, since beekeepers' use of oxytetracline for 40 years was sometimes nearly a recipe for developing bacterial resistance (ie. half-treat active beekeepers' use of oxytetracline for 40 years was sometimes nearly a recipe for developing bacterial resistance (ie. half-treat active infections, use the same product all the time, use uneven or haphazard doses, then throw the half-empty package in the truck til next year, etc.). For some reason, resistant strains didn't survive in the field (or maybe they were infrequent enough that beekeepers weeded them out after the hives died). 

There's been a recent change, though, that makes the appearance of oxytetracycline resistant AFB more likely: widespread, nearly continuous use of antibiotic extender patties. This is the one ingredient that was missing: a continuous selection pressure. 

While continuous vegetable oil patties may be recommended for tracheal mite control, and while the same patty can be used to apply antibiotic, antibiotic extender patties should not be used for months at a time. (The vegetable oil (not the antibiotic) is the active ingredient for tracheal mites). Long-term (months) continuous use of antibiotic extender patties can result in antibiotic residues appearing in an extracted honey crop, and will act to select antibiotic-resistant strains of AFB. 

Antibiotic extender patties can be a useful tool to apply oxytetracycline, but should be used (where they are permitted) only for short periods (just as other methods: medicated syrup, dry application, etc. would be used).


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Like I said, just speculation.The resistant strain could just as likely have developed from any of the methods of application,if done haphazardly. 
The first TM resistant strains were widely believed to have come from South America by way of imported honey.
The point is ,bees still need protection(especially during almonds),and dusting is still effective. We quit using the grease patties as some hives refused to touch them.They weren't under dosed, they weren't dosed at all.
We have been using hygienic strains for years and afb is never a problem ( and we do look for it).But you know the bees will be exposed to it during almond pollination,and from the guys who don't treat at all,so a little help to the bees is good insurance .


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

alpha6 said:


> NY...dang yankee...I know what camp to put you in.  For the record I bought out an old beeks stuff which had everything you can imagine in them. He never changed out his comb and had every disease known to beekeeping in the 60 or so years he kept bees. I figured that if he could keep going that long how bad could the comb be. Big mistake. Lots of problems and money later I ended up burning all the frames. Now with new frames and comb bees are doing fantastic. I think more commercial guys are catching on. Better to throw on a little feed and have them draw out new comb then keep fighting to fix old comb. Besides if you order in bulk Pierco is running less then a buck a frame...can't beat that plus no work involved in putting it together.


And you run how many colonies? 
Education isn't cheap, no matter how you learn what you need to.
"...dang yankee..."? And what are you?  Don't judge a book by it's cover or in my case, someone who has lived in more southern states than I have northern states during my life. I know you were just kidding.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Beeslave said:


> Now unless every asspect of your life and lifestyle is 100% chem and pollutant free, all natural everything please preach to someone else cuz I'm just trying to keep food on the table and looking for a recipe!!!


Amen, brother. I knew this was the case. As a businessman you have to do what you have to do to put the food on the table and pay the bills. Me too. Ethics and highly moral practices are easier for those who don't live off of what they grow. It's easier to see the speck of sawdust in your brothers eye than it is to see the plank in your own.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

With all of the colonies that Varroa destructor have killed, it's a wonder that AFB is regulated as much as it is and Varroa isn't. Can you imagine what shape our industry would be in if colonies of bees w/ high varroa counts had to be burned?

But I do know that there is a difference. AFB is a brood disease that effects the equipment. And w/ varroa, when the colony dies the varroa are dead too.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I agree. Varroa is our number 1 problem. Its not easy keeping large numbers of hives alive and healthy,no matter what anyone thinks. 
The nonchalant way varroa is dismissed by some on this forum never ceases to amaze me.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Amen, brother. I knew this was the case. As a businessman you have to do what you have to do to put the food on the table and pay the bills. Ethics and highly moral practices are easier for those who don't live off of what they grow.


all true but thats why the florida testing law will be in all states, the label says only for treating actual cases of foul brood, not for use just in case maybe i might get it. The commercial guys like to break the rules then are the first ones to cry when they don't have some chemical to treat whatever is ailing them today. Use the correct chemical and we can all use it alot longer. If you can't check your hives maybe you have to many hives. the nice part of a site like this is all the people that admit they are breaking the laws and using there name, like treating with tictac etc, if your crazy enough to put it in writting they should fine you double.

mike


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Amen, brother. I knew this was the case. As a businessman you have to do what you have to do to put the food on the table and pay the bills. Me too. Ethics and highly moral practices are easier for those who don't live off of what they grow. It's easier to see the speck of sawdust in your brothers eye than it is to see the plank in your own.


What are you saying?? I run my bees without chemicals and it puts food on the table, pays the bills, buys the trucks, etc, etc, etc. To say that in order to run a successful commercial operation you have to use antibiotics and other chemicals is utter nonsense. There are numerous ways to run a healthy operation. Switching out your comb, using EO's, something as simple as feeding your bees with a darth is on, I could go on and on. Hey, if he wants to run tylan in his hives it doesn't affect me, but others here should know there are other ways to run bees successfully without having to use chemicals if you prefer not too. Boy did we hijack this thread or what? t:


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

"the label says only for treating actual cases of foul brood, not for use just in case maybe i might get it"
-The label states-for the control of AFB, preventive treatments are controling

"Use the correct chemical and we can all use it alot longer"
-Are you suggesting I'm not? 

"If you can't check your hives maybe you have to many hives"
-I never said I couldn't check them all, just trying to be more efficient

"the nice part of a site like this is all the people that admit they are breaking the laws and using there name"
-The bad part is when you are not breaking the law you still get ridiculed for it!


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

"the nice part of a site like this is all the people that admit they are breaking the laws and using there name"
-The bad part is when you are not breaking the law you still get ridiculed for it!

-----

The nice part about a site like this is posts that get personal can easily be deleted. The bad part is when it's your post.

It's clear there are two sides to this topic, and it has strayed from the OP. Let's find a way to express the differing views without getting snide.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Barry said:


> The nice part about a site like this is posts that get personal can easily be deleted. The bad part is when it's your post.
> 
> It's clear there are two sides to this topic, and it has strayed from the OP. Let's find a way to express the differing views without getting snide.


not getting snide. here are the "rules" from the state he lives in.

http://www.datcp.state.wi.us/arm/environment/insects/apiary/pdf/2007Tylan.pdf

says only to be used for know infections

mike


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

I use lemon grass and tea tree oil in my hives but according to law using them is illegal. same in NY or Colorado or any other state. So EO is considered O.K. but again it is illegal?

They both are anti viral and anti bacterial but if I use them as a feed supplement to boost the immunitiy of the bee it is o.k. but as a foul brood preventitve I can not use it..

We share info on this site but I think we should be carefull how we judge since we have not really walked in each others shoes to know what is really going on.


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## g.gill (Jul 17, 2009)

Beeslave said:


> Thanks Ernie. Still not exactly what I was looking for but a very good read. I do believe I have it figured out though.


What did you figure out?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> all true but thats why the florida testing law will be in all states,
> mike


"the florida testing law"? Is that the law about adulterated honey?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> the label says only for treating actual cases of foul brood
> mike


But isn't the treating of actual cases of AFB against state law? Aren't we, by law, supposed to burn or otherwise destroy any cases of AFB that we find in our colonies? I think I'll call my State Apiculturalist.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

This is what is legal in WI regarding the use of tylan-It is for the control of AFB. If AFB is found within your operation all colonies in said operation should be preventively treated using tylan or terramycin. Terramycin is recommended because it also is for treatment of EFB. If it is definately AFB, tylan does a better job for treating it. That is what I was told by the state apiculturist.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Further searching I found this:
http://www.datcp.state.wi.us/arm/environment/insects/apiary/pdf/ControlTreatments2008.pdf


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> But isn't the treating of actual cases of AFB against state law? Aren't we, by law, supposed to burn or otherwise destroy any cases of AFB that we find in our colonies? I think I'll call my State Apiculturalist.


don't have to call last time I checked the little doc available, in N.y. you must burn the hives. You have probably had more interaction with n.y what do you think they would do if you brought up a load of hives with foul brood??

mike


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Beeslave said:


> Further searching I found this:
> http://www.datcp.state.wi.us/arm/environment/insects/apiary/pdf/ControlTreatments2008.pdf


a cut and past of the above not formated well

AMERICAN
FOULBROOD
Paenibacillus
larvae
EUROPEAN
FOULBROOD
melissococcus
pluton

Tylan
(Tylosin tartrate)
Dusting only! 3 times 200mg dose in 20 g 
powdered sugar in weekly intervals.
Complete treatment 4 weeks prior to surplus
honey flow. Treat only infected brood <----note only infected brood box
boxes.
INTEGRATED PEST MANAGEMENT: Inspect hives for symptoms of AFB.



when we look to buy queens we ask the queen supplier what they treat for and with what, if they say they use tylan we naturally assume they have active foul brood, buy our queens other places.

mike


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> "the florida testing law"? Is that the law about adulterated honey?


true but it should be a national law not localized, when is n.y. going to pass its version??

mike


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

http://www.masterbeekeeper.org/pdf/ne2.pdf

A number of changes sweeping through the bee industry will soon have serious ramifications for AFB
management. One is the widespread use of plastic foundation and plastic frames. Traditionally, AFB
infected colonies would simply be burned. Now, with a significant percentage of plastic in the colony,
burning may no longer be an option due to environmental regulations. Effective and economically viable
methods for sterilizing plastic combs have not been developed. The second development is that of Terramycin
(TM) resistance in the AFB population. TM resistant AFB has been found throughout the US and throughout
New York. Why is this a big deal? The answer to that question requires a basic understanding of the biology
of Paenebacillus larvae, the causative agent of AFB. P. larvae exists in both the vegetative stage and the
spore stage. While the vegetative stage is susceptible to TM, the spore stage is resistant. A colony with active
AFB will respond to antibiotic treatment, but since the spores remain viable in the colony, the disease usually
reappears when the antibiotic activity wears off. If you have transferred combs among colonies during this
period, you have probably spread the disease. As a result of this biology, TM should only be used as a
prophylactic. That means treating healthy colonies at two times of the year –


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

g.gill said:


> What did you figure out?


That it is illegal to burn any hive components made of plastic and The only "legal" way to apply tylan is the "dust" method.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

Don't extender patties get a lot of the blame for terra resistant foulbrood?


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Yes, just as guns are blamed for murders. Patties in the hive for months at a time are blamed. Patties that are consumed in the amount of time that the antibiotic is rationed for is no different than applying dust 3 times with the same concentration. Example, If I had a "recipe" for a extender patty that had the equivelant of 3 doses of med. and the bees took 3 weeks to consume the patty there would be no difference in the amount and length of time the med was in the hive. "Dust" method is prescribed to a set amount given to the hive but does not vary with hive strength, that said you can under med. and not have the proper results.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I'm looking for a recipe that the bees won't take to fast yet they still consume it so they are getting enough tylan to be effective


Bad idea. Here, if we get the approval of using Tylan, we have to treat with it in the fall, sugar dusting.
Tylan has alot longer life than Oxytet,
and because of such will increase your chances of honey contamination. I do agree its more effective against AFB than Oxytet, and easier on the bees, but if you dont use this stuff carefully you will include it with your honeycrop,
especially if you use extender patties
I agree with you on the whole resistance blame on the extender patties, my extensions apiarist suggests it increases the chances, but doesn't have any proof it increases the chances anymore than regular routine treat all dusting,


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