# To treat or not to treat.. that's the question



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Any indication you need to treat? Or a mite count to go off of? I think if you haven't made the choice that you're treating regardless and you're looking for a "reason" or a need to treat... you should be monitoring in some way to tell you if you need to or not.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

I haven't done a count. I have not seen mites. Or girls with bad wings. They look quiet strong and there's lots of brood. I'm just not sure if I should just leave them alone. Or if treating will make them even better than what they are now. I would like to harvest honey but not sure if the honey is gonna be ok if I treat while they are collecting.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

jcolon said:


> I haven't done a count. I have not seen mites.


Don't rely on seeing mites on the bees. If you don't do an alcohol wash or other method of mite count, no one can tell you if you need to treat or not.

You can do a count now and use that to formulate a plan as to how to proceed after harvest.

Wayne


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

jcolon said:


> I would like to harvest honey but not sure if the honey is gonna be ok if I treat while they are collecting.


The EPA approval of using OAV includes the restriction ...


> Do not use when honey supers are in place to prevent contamination of marketable honey.
> 
> http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=EPA-HQ-OPP-2015-0043-0018


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Im not relying at all in counts. I actually plan not to count and just treat in the fall.


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## Beeathlon (Jul 28, 2015)

If you decide to treat, consider waiting for a brood break if possible.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

We are out of the dearth and there was no brood break this year. I doubt there be one.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Well then you seem to have decided. Still, only a mite count will tell you if it's necessary or not. That's my reasoning.

Wayne


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

My question is on the basis that these bees have never been treated, period. What is the advantage or disadvantage of treating at this point.


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

If your own bees are actively flying and if you have visiting drones in your hive(s) you have varroa mites. Just do a capping scratcher fork test on some capped drone cells and prove it to yourself.

Steve


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

I know is a fact that all bees have varroa. 



Bear Creek Steve said:


> If your own bees are actively flying and if you have visiting drones in your hive(s) you have varroa mites. Just do a capping scratcher fork test on some capped drone cells and prove it to yourself.
> 
> Steve


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## Dan. NY (Apr 15, 2011)

To answer the question re: pros/cons of treating.. here is my answer.

PRO: Higher chances of colony making it through winter. No (or few) varroa = less potential for disease, stronger bees, generally stronger hive.

CON: potential to damage hive, queen. If you kill your queen now, obviously not good.

I am sure someone will come along and disagree, but for me this is the basics.

I also try and treat based on the amount of varroa I see in brood. Every time I open the hive and check, brood is disturbed. I take the opportunity to look for mites in the capped brood I have disturbed already. If I don't see any mites, my thinking is the rest of the hive has few mites and no need to treat. If I see more than a few, that is my threshold. I don't think anyone here has posted this method, but its mine and seems to work well so far.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Thanks Dan. I am treating all y hives regardless of count. This one in particular is a hive that have done well without treatments and is from bees that never been treated... that's why i am asking.


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## mgstei1 (Jan 11, 2014)

Treat! If they are honeybees they have mites these days.
Just like livestock gets worms. 
OAV if used correctly will kill mites and do no harm.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Have you spoken to the seller if he does anything in place of treatments that he thinks contributes to his success, comb size, manipulations, etc.? What is his success rate? Are you doing what he did?


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

If you are not going to test, you need to treat "by the calendar". If you test and don't have mites fine. If you don't test, hit them once with oav along about Thanksgiving. You would be much better off to test now. If you need to treat now, you can always pull the supers off for a few days and treat.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

Use that colony as a test case in an experiment. Don't treat and then compare them to the rest of your hives which you do treat. 
You might find that you have a resistant/hygenic queen. If that's the case, you will want to raise new queens from her.
I would be curious to see the result.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

dsegrest said:


> If you are not going to test, you need to treat "by the calendar". If you test and don't have mites fine. If you don't test, hit them once with oav along about Thanksgiving. You would be much better off to test now. If you need to treat now, you can always pull the supers off for a few days and treat.


+1 if you're not going to test, Treat. I no longer test, I treat on a schedule. Once set during the dearth, another around Thanksgiving.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

They are also very gentle. I plan on reproducing this lady for my future queen needs. 



Hops Brewster said:


> Use that colony as a test case in an experiment. Don't treat and then compare them to the rest of your hives which you do treat.
> You might find that you have a resistant/hygenic queen. If that's the case, you will want to raise new queens from her.
> I would be curious to see the result.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

thanks robbin


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

jcolon said:


> My question is on the basis that these bees have never been treated, period. What is the advantage or disadvantage of treating at this point.


The advantage that you will find in treating but not counting is that you will kill mites that may or may not be there in dangerous levels. Another is that you save yourself the few minutes it takes to do a count. The disadvantage is in treating for something that may not be a problem. If not necessary, you are disrupting the hive three times and wasting your time for no reason. 

Is having untreated bees of any importance? You have invested in what sounds like untreated bees that have grown strong thus far as you have mentioned several times. May I ask the reason for not wishing to know your current mite levels? That would be the first thing I want to know. You will never know if your bees may have any mite resistance if you treat before knowing. That they came from a breeder that doesn't treat and that they are your strongest hive is meaningless once you treat without knowing your mite levels.

This is not to say do not treat. You more than likely would find some mites in your test results but are they above or below an acceptable threshold? No one knows. 

If it sounds like I'm confused, it's that I'm not clear on what your objectives are.

Wayne


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

>Use that colony as a test case in an experiment. Don't treat and then compare them to the rest of your hives which you do treat. <

But separate them from treated colonies if you do this. Put them in another beeyard.
Every hive at one yard must be handled the same way. Treat all or none.

>You might find that you have a resistant/hygenic queen. If that's the case, you will want to raise new queens from her.<

That might be possible.

>I would be curious to see the result.<

Oh my! I would be happy to have them!
10 mite-tolerant hives which are not treated are able to eliminate the mite drift of 1 treated hive, that`s the relation.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Do you gas up your vehicle without looking at your gas gauge?


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Irrelevant


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Something to think about: the bees may not have been treated before, but that was when they were in a different location, with different local varroa, and perhaps fewer novel varroa being brought into contact with the hive. Unless the guy who sold you the nuc is your next door neighbor, the situation has changed.

If you don't want to monitor, treat by the calendar.

If you don't want to treat by the calendar, monitor.

One or the other, but don't just put your head in the sand. You are going to treat your other hives, right? So the varroa that this new hive is now exposed to, _in your yard,_ requires treatment to keep in check. 

If you want to see if the new queen runs a tidier house, you can't afford to just go on the assumption that she's somehow different, because there are two factors to the varroa problem: the bees and the mites. Perhaps the mites back where she came from were simply less virulent. Since varroa is an obligate parasite of honey bees (can't survive w/o 'em) there has to be some kind of feedback/equilibrium established between mites and the bees they are on. Otherwise the mites are on a suicide mission. One of those factors in other kinds of host/parasite relationships is an evolving diminished virulence on the part of the parasite. This can (and I think does) work if the bees and mites are somewhat isolated. It's beekeepers who are constantly upsetting this balancing act by moving bees (and mites) all the time.

I wouldn't want the risk of bringing a new, _unmonitored_, colony into my apiary if I wasn't going to treat it.

Enj.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Great answer enjambre! Best point so far. 
Thanks!
And I fill up my car every Sunday, don't even look at the gage, lol. Same with my propane. :lpf:



enjambres said:


> Something to think about: the bees may not have been treated before, but that was when they were in a different location, with different local varroa, and perhaps fewer novel varroa being brought into contact with the hive. Unless the guy who sold you the nuc is your next door neighbor, the situation has changed.
> 
> If you don't want to monitor, treat by the calendar.
> 
> ...


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sounds like the father/son may have some pretty good bees there and the location is supportive. i don't think it matters too much about whether you treat the one hive or not and i wouldn't make too much about how just one colony performs. if you have an interest in keeping bees off treatments i would consider talking more with the supplier and finding out about their winter loss rate, swarming, productivity, ect. if they are in your same general area and having average or better than average success i would consider requeening all hives next year with their stock and managing the bees in the same they do.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

I agree. He is very responsive and we text often. I still will use OAV, but they seem to have a good gig going. I think that's all they do. Queens and nucs and some honey. 


squarepeg said:


> sounds like the father/son may have some pretty good bees there and the location is supportive. i don't think it matters too much about whether you treat the one hive or not and i wouldn't make too much about how just one colony performs. if you have an interest in keeping bees off treatments i would consider talking more with the supplier and finding out about their winter loss rate, swarming, productivity, ect. if they are in your same general area and having average or better than average success i would consider requeening all hives next year with their stock and managing the bees in the same they do.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood. i've only been at this a few years and have only sampled a few hives for mites, but i find that my bees are handling higher mite loads than what others say would be a death sentence. if you take the monitoring approach i would lean more toward watching for high numbers of dwv and crawler bees on the ground and sick brood than i would mite counts. not seeing much of that through your fall brood up most likely means that the bees are handling the mites well.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Slow Drone said:


> Do you gas up your vehicle without looking at your gas gauge?


I certainly do! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

I have a 20 year old pickup that the gas gauge does not work. Consequently, there is no point in looking at the gauge. :lpf:


The point of this, relevant to this thread, is ... sometimes you must make a decision on _less than perfect_ information. 

Surely you don't really believe that a beekeeper with hundreds or thousands of hives is going to test bees from _each individual hive_ before making a treatment decision?



.... practical reality trumps philosophy! :lookout:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I have a 20 year old pickup that the gas gauge does not work. Consequently, there is no point in looking at the gauge. :lpf:


I'll bet you look at the odometer! :lpf:If not, you end up needlessly spending time at the gas pump or you end up out of gas along the side of the road.


The point of this is ... almost all times you make a decision based on all the information available to you. Not just from one gauge.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

I had a Toyota that the gage didn't work. Often I went to fill up and got it full with 2 bucks!


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Im lazy, ala M Bush. I work with lots of data all day long at work. At home, I want to do what I do. I either treat or not. Was just trying to make a decision on this specific hive. Conclusion, treat and keep it all standard. 3 in the fall, one before Xmas. 



Rader Sidetrack said:


> I certainly do! :thumbsup::thumbsup:
> 
> I have a 20 year old pickup that the gas gauge does not work. Consequently, there is no point in looking at the gauge. :lpf:
> 
> ...


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

The reason I brought up mite testing is that several times jcolon referred to the source of his bees being treatment free for mites and how strong they have proven to be as compared to his other hives. This led me to believe that he was interested in furthering the resistance of these bees. I see that I am wrong.

By the way, from hearing M Bush speak and reading his writings, I don't believe he got to the level of treatment-free by being lazy and ignoring data.

Wayne


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

My question, again, is about the effect on treating what seems to be varroa resistant hives. Got no clue about what you mean by your last statement Wayne.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Treating won't change their genetics and it might improve their colony strength if the mites are putting any kind of drag on them, even if it's a small amount it seems, could be helpful in the long run. I've found the mites here don't really care about the history of the colonies, they're equal opportunity infesters. Some new lines are looking more promising this year as it seems they may have kept mite populations lower but I won't judge them til next year when they lead a production hive and rear drones in quantity.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Thanks JRG13


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

What's the point of the post if you have obviously decided to treat which appears to be an irrelevant post.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

I decided after reading from the wisdom of the forum members.



Slow Drone said:


> What's the point of the post if you have obviously decided to treat which appears to be an irrelevant post.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

My first two years of experience beekeeping confirmed I needed to treat. I did not those two years and every bee died. My results since starting to treat have been much, much better. Some areas have a unique set of variables that allow them to not treat and there are few problems. Michael Bush is a good example. I hear, but cannot confirm from experience that they do not treat much in New Mexico either. There is just something in certain localities that allows bees to do just fine without treatments. You may live in one of those areas. Personally, my recommendation if you are not doing any testing on mite levels is to treat with OAV. I believe it is the least harmful form of treatment to the bees and at this point in time, I would rather play it safe than lose all of my hives. If you decide not to treat, you may find out you have wonderful resistant bees and a great location or you will find out that you should have treated and they all died. The only way to find out for sure is to not treat.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Im treating. I decided that, I already started.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Slow Drone said:


> What's the point of the post if you have obviously decided to treat which appears to be an irrelevant post.


At this point in the thread, I've reached the same conclusion. I really don't understand your objectives. You seem to want resistant bees, you tell us that this queen comes from resistant stock, and that she may be considered as future brood stock, but then we read that you're too "lazy" (your words not mine) to evaluate her resistance. Not trying to rain on your thread, but you should consider that some objectives do require effort. A sugar roll, sticky drop, or alcohol wash are not that time consuming and would give you some measure to make future decisions. Now, as your plans seem to be, if you simply treat this colony without testing what do you really know about this potential breeder? I contend you would know even less about her than your original stock.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

>Not trying to rain on your thread...
:lookout: but you just did. lol

>You seem to want resistant bees...
Never said that. :no:

>you're too "lazy"
Never said this either. 

Is funny. My wife do the same. I say something and she figures I mean something totally different. :lpf:


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

The answer is NO. Don't treat. That is what you want to hear isn't it? 
(blink, blink, grin)


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

jcolon said:


> >Not trying to rain on your thread...
> :lookout: but you just did. lol


That wasn't rain - just a light dusting...



jcolon said:


> >You seem to want resistant bees...
> Never said that. :no:


So you bought them at gun point....OK, got it. 




jcolon said:


> >you're too "lazy"
> Never said this either.


Post 34: "Im lazy, ala M Bush. ..." 

I could throw in a Lloyd Benson quote here....




jcolon said:


> Is funny. My wife do the same. I say something and she figures I mean something totally different. :lpf:


I'm thinking your wife may be on to something :lookout:


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Lazy and too lazy is two different things.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i took it as jc was planning to treat it but considering not treating if it would harm the colony in some way which and my response is that it probably wouldn't matter much one way or the other. i was thinking about it in terms of the mites in that hive and in that yard.

the one consideration against using oxalic acid might be that in addition to reducing the varroa mite count (which may not be necessary in this case) is you may also do away with other potentially beneficial life forms in the hive. Since we don't know all there is to know about how much or how little those life forms interact (much like the good bugs do with our own bodies) to help a colony's resistance to diseases and pests it's at least possible that the treatment could have unintended adverse effects in that regard.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Seeking out and buying TF bees then treating them makes about as much sense as wiping before you poop. If you want to treat bees just buy everyday commercial packages


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> i took it as jc was planning to treat it but considering not treating if it would harm the colony in some way which and my response is that it probably wouldn't matter much one way or the other. i was thinking about it in terms of the mites in that hive and in that yard.
> 
> the one consideration against using oxalic acid might be that in addition to reducing the varroa mite count (which may not be necessary in this case) is you may also do away with other potentially beneficial life forms in the hive. Since we don't know all there is to know about how much or how little those life forms interact (much like the good bugs do with our own bodies) to help a colony's resistance to diseases and pests it's at least possible that the treatment could have unintended adverse effects in that regard.


Had not even thought about how the "cure" for mites could kill beneficial critters. 
Kind of like "sterilizing" our own bodies to kill head lice would probably kill us too.
There's a pretty good argument for not treating if the premise is true. (using the Formic and Oxalic acids kills stuff we want alive would be the premise).


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> it's at least possible that the treatment could have unintended adverse effects in that regard.


My strong belief is that there is a cost/benefit scenario at play whenever you put chems in a colony (including the organic acids), but here the OP has no idea on the varroa state of this colony and seems resistant to make effort to assess it. Whenever I treat a colony, I do so with very strong evidence that its needed. I don't believe in the treat 1, treat all philosophy. (Of course if I was running 1000 colonies things might be different.) For me, this all means that any colony that gets treated has had some level of mite inspection preformed and results warrant the cost of applying the chems.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

AstroBee said:


> My strong belief is that there is a cost/benefit scenario at play whenever you put chems in a colony (including the organic acids), but here the OP has no idea on the varroa state of this colony and seems resistant to make effort to assess it. Whenever I treat a colony, I do so with very strong evidence that its needed. I don't believe in the treat 1, treat all philosophy. (Of course if I was running 1000 colonies things might be different.) For me, this all means that any colony that gets treated has had some level of mite inspection preformed and results warrant the cost of applying the chems.


understood ab, and if i understand your approach correctly those that end up needing treatment are later requeened from proven stock. i think this makes a ton of sense and a very efficient use of resources.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i am intrigued by the decades old father/son tf operation that sounds like it might be supporting two households. i would be less impressed if all of the colonies are being continuously split for nuc sales, but i wouldn't be surprised if they are keeping some hives for honey production as well.

i would be interested in finding out if they have production colonies that are long-lived, (i.e. have survived multiple winters), if they requeen on a scheduled basis vs. allowing the colonies to requeen themselves as needed, and if they feed much syrup vs. leaving enough honey so as not to need to. i would also be interested in finding out if many of those who purchased their bees are continuing to keep them off treatments and if so how they are doing.

i think harley makes a good point although i don't think i would have put it quite that way.  if one were going to outfit an apiary with what sounds like may be resistant yet productive stock, and especially if one wanted to propagate from that stock, not allowing the winnowing out of the lessor performing colonies would tend to hold back the progress that might be made from selecting from the better performing colonies. 

i'm not much for campaigning for anything, but if i became aware of an operation like that around here, and if i found out there were others having success keeping these bees off treatments, i would be tempted to form somewhat of a users group and encourage as many that could to make enough increase to have surplus colonies for sale each year. over time the effect might be enough to influence the genetic foot print of an area in favor of bees that do well off treatments.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Following all this real close trying to formulate my own strategy. Was under the impression that "production colonies" are made, not born per se. 
Also thought that a beekeeper put together a "monster" to collect honey and then broke it back into pieces after the flow. It sort of makes sense as far as managing for pests (mites) as well. (I think) 

Had a colony that could have easily been one of them monsters but was afraid to do it this year. Next year I'll make a couple big ones. Having the right queens is crucial and have got a few winners with good local genes. 

This a great thread.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

I have one hive with a TF local queen. I just got her this year.

After the experiences I've had trying to go treatment free in the last 6 years I am treating her hive until I can raise enough daughter queens from her, and a couple others who show promise, before I let them go on their own without treatment. I want to have some reserve, some kind of back up, and a plan to slowly go TF.

I'm not sure I could handle another year of total losses like I have seen in the past.

So I can understand the OP's reluctance to go cold turkey TF. 


But, squarepeg, I am with you on that TF outfit. I'd be trying to get as many hives propagated from that line of queens as I could to see what they could do.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> if one were going to outfit an apiary with what sounds like may be resistant yet productive stock, and especially if one wanted to propagate from that stock, not allowing the winnowing out of the lessor performing colonies would tend to hold back the progress that might be made from selecting from the better performing colonies.


That is the answer in my view. G


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> if i understand your approach correctly those that end up needing treatment are later requeened from proven stock.


Correct.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> i am intrigued by the decades old father/son tf operation that sounds like it might be supporting two households. i would be less impressed if all of the colonies are being continuously split for nuc sales, but i wouldn't be surprised if they are keeping some hives for honey production as well.
> 
> i would be interested in finding out if they have production colonies that are long-lived, (i.e. have survived multiple winters), if they requeen on a scheduled basis vs. allowing the colonies to requeen themselves as needed, and if they feed much syrup vs. leaving enough honey so as not to need to. i would also be interested in finding out if many of those who purchased their bees are continuing to keep them off treatments and if so how they are doing.


Intriguing for sure. I'd really like to hear a detailed account of exactly how this operation manages its stock.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Arnie said:


> So I can understand the OP's reluctance to go cold turkey TF.


Arnie,

The point (to me) here is not going "cold turkey" blindly, which I don't advocate. There have been way too many of those unsuccessful ventures reported here. The point is: treat if necessary - its really pretty basic. In the spring take more steps towards TF, repeat year after year. If you've verified that you've got a treatment free colony that is fully capable of surviving *and *you've treated your surrounding mite susceptible colonies, then why would you take the step to unnecessarily treat the resistant one? Again, to me, this is all very counterproductive. This does presume that the varroa profile is basically constant from the TF operation to where the bees currently reside. However, that can be tested. There may be other mitigating factors, but for a relatively isolated hobbyist this should be sufficient.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

AstroBee said:


> Correct.


yeah, i think you've got a pretty smart approach ab. are you still using about 15% infestation as your treatment threshold, and are there any other considerations beside the mite count for the decision to treat? are you finding that the percentage of colonies that require treatment is getting less year to year, i.e. is your stock showing signs of gaining resistance overall?


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## jakec (May 26, 2015)

Harley Craig said:


> Seeking out and buying TF bees then treating them makes about as much sense as wiping before you poop. If you want to treat bees just buy everyday commercial packages


awesome! this is a great thread and got me to doing sticky board mite counts. maqs came in the mail yesterday.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

My threshold is slightly creeping upward, but I don't allow things to get crazy. One exception was last Fall when an Italian colony that tested 50+ in a sugar roll. That particular colony never really impressed me, so I decided to let it go as an experiment. That colony crashed during winter. Yes, some may say that was irresponsible to allow that colony to perish, but I was attempting to probe the threshold boundaries. In my area, I'm seeing anything in the high teens (>17) as a candidate for further investigation. Other considerations? Yes, a general inspection after a high mite count is done. I'm looking for DWV, uncap some brood, general brood pattern, overall appearance of the colony (activity, stores, motivation <- yeah subjective!!). If DWV is found I treat immediately with MAQS. I treated one colony last fall. I do allow bees with >17 to remain untreated if things look good. I did loose some bees last winter, but I had a late season pesticide spray that seemed very hard on queens. Others in my area reported similar issues. The primary farmer near me has been much better with his application techniques this season and my bees look great. Just wish all farmers near me would follow along and play as nice.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

only treated one colony last fall, that's awesome!! many thanks for the reply ab.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

AstroBee said:


> The point (to me) here is not going "cold turkey" blindly


I understand. The 'blindly' part was the ignorant mistake we made when starting back up with the bees. 

Now that I've had that bitter experience I will be much more careful if and when I get the bees I want that are able to go TF. 

This winter I need to read more about what you guys do and carefully work out a plan. The first step will be to get some queens from the bees we have now that survived our haphazard approach from last year. 

When I got back into this I did not fully realize the extent things have changed.

I know when I decide to try not treating, that first year I will be on pins and needles worrying that I have doomed the bees.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Suppose I owned a kennel and 50 trained waterfowl retrievers. Large investment there. 

If I managed dogs like you want to manage bees I'd find one with fleas, treat it and the other 49 are good. I'm pretty sure the fleas can abandon their host and pick another if they are quick. 

Mites? Not sure but I really like using the dog analogy. TF dogs? That's silly but it is an angle and maybe I could make money selling these dogs.

Head-lice on school kids is another but even worse analogy. Just treat the ones who have lice and don't worry about them fuzzy chairs in the library and computer lab.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

AstroBee said:


> Whenever I treat a colony, I do so with very strong evidence that its needed. I don't believe in the treat 1, treat all philosophy. (Of course if I was running 1000 colonies things might be different.) For me, this all means that any colony that gets treated has had some level of mite inspection preformed and results warrant the cost of applying the chems


Astrobee very good work. The strategy you follow can be replicated everywhere in the world and is already carried out by some. Locally each must tune the thresholds for the type of bees and goals that each has, environmental conditions , availability of management and lastly the subjective risk threshold beyond which everyone feels comfortable.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

I went TF, in 5 hives and bought nothing but TF queens last year even in my treated hives. Accidentally treated one, as it wasn't on the end with the other 4. I treat with OAV so it's easy.
I lost 3 hives over the winter, most I've ever lost and two where from the 4 TF hives. I know it's a tiny sample size, and not a good scientific test, but enough for me to treat them all this year. OAV is cheap, easy, thou a little time consuming, so for me, I decided treating was better than not treating.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Simple enough!
OAV as of right now is the way to go. Mite resistance still very new and it will take long time for good stock to develop.




Robbin said:


> I went TF, in 5 hives and bought nothing but TF queens last year even in my treated hives. Accidentally treated one, as it wasn't on the end with the other 4. I treat with OAV so it's easy.
> I lost 3 hives over the winter, most I've ever lost and two where from the 4 TF hives. I know it's a tiny sample size, and not a good scientific test, but enough for me to treat them all this year. OAV is cheap, easy, thou a little time consuming, so for me, I decided treating was better than not treating.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

jcolon said:


> Simple enough!
> OAV as of right now is the way to go. Mite resistance still very new and it will take long time for good stock to develop.


are you doubting the claims of the father/son operation?


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

squarepeg said:


> are you doubting the claims of the father/son operation?


Yes. One little word. "Evidence". Got any?


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Squarepeg I am not doubting anything. This honorable man sold me a hive. He never made a claim of having varroa resistance stock. He never told me not to treat. He never told me his darn queens are the s**t. I bought this hive, which he sold me at the price of a nuc because he was sold out. Two weeks later texting him in casual bee conversation i asked what he do for mites, he told me he never treats for mites. I am not making any claims that I have or don't have or that he claimed or not claimed. I asked, what would be the pros and cons of treating a hive that seems to be doing very well without treatment and that haven't been treated before. 
Its insane how you ask a question and it get turned around into a whole argument. 

Jose




squarepeg said:


> are you doubting the claims of the father/son operation?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

aunt betty said:


> I'm pretty sure the fleas can abandon their host and pick another if they are quick.


Unlike dogs, resistant bees have the ability to kill their own "fleas". Of course mites migrate, but not all hosts are equally receptive.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

I agree jcolon it is argumentive any post that will involve both treatment and treatment free beekeepers is going to be. However I feel this has all been enlightening for all involved. I now understand your position and I think you've gotten loads of good imfo from both sides to help aid you in a well informed decision. I hope all works out well for you and your bees.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Slow Drone said:


> I agree jcolon it is argumentive any post that will involve both treatment and treatment free beekeepers is going to be. However I feel this has all been enlightening for all involved. I now understand your position and I think you've gotten loads of good imfo from both sides to help aid you in a well informed decision. I hope all works out well for you and your bees.


That was the whole point. Gather opinions beyond my limited experience to make an informed decision which as I stated earlier I have already made.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

jcolon said:


> Mite resistance still very new and it will take long time for good stock to develop.


gosh jose it sounds like i hit a nerve but i really didn't mean to. i was trying to resolve what you wrote here with their 30+ years experience and not trying to cast aspersions on you or the honorable supplier. please accept my sincere apology. 

i am very interested in what the father and son are doing and i would love the opportunity to talk with them about it. if it's not too much trouble the next time you communicate with the son tell him there's an old country beekeeper down here in alabama that would like to discuss bees with him if he has the time. if he grants permission please pm his contact info. many thanks.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

This thread makes me sad.

Sorry guys, you fight the symptoms not the cause.
"a little bit of treatment" in the bee yard is treatment.

We in Germany are confronted by the mite and the resulting diseases for some 40 years now and many beekeepers are giving up, because the treatments are not helping anymore.
The losses are nearly the same treating or not treating.
We are not allowed to use a dispenser for oxalic acid, because the handling of it is dangerous for the beekeeper.
Some people use a dispenser for formic acid and treat for 3 weeks constantly. Then do the oxalic in winter when the hives are without brood (hopefully).

If you read Kirk Webster, you know, that you likely will have a collapse and start new with the survivors.
I can understand that people don`t want to do this.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

I was just texting with him. They have never treated, period. He don't know how long to be exact (but we are talking decades). Between the two 400 to 500 hives. 



squarepeg said:


> gosh jose it sounds like i hit a nerve but i really didn't mean to. i was trying to resolve what you wrote here with their 30+ years experience and not trying to cast aspersions on you or the honorable supplier. please accept my sincere apology.
> 
> i am very interested in what the father and son are doing and i would love the opportunity to talk with them about it. if it's not too much trouble the next time you communicate with the son tell him there's an old country beekeeper down here in alabama that would like to discuss bees with him if he has the time. if he grants permission please pm his contact info. many thanks.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

SiWolKe said:


> If you read Kirk Webster, you know, that you likely will have a collapse and start new with the survivors.
> I can understand that people don`t want to do this.


This is the TF philosophy that I can't get behind. The idea that we will be serving the greater good by letting our bees live or die and then continue on with the survivors. It might be true, but I just want to have my bees do well. I'm not interested in 'saving the bees'.

I know it is selfish of me, but........


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Well, dead bees make no honey, so im with you. 



Arnie said:


> This is the TF philosophy that I can't get behind. The idea that we will be serving the greater good by letting our bees live or die and then continue on with the survivors. It might be true, but I just want to have my bees do well. I'm not interested in 'saving the bees'.
> 
> I know it is selfish of me, but........


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

jcolon said:


> I was just texting with him. They have never treated, period. He don't know how long to be exact (but we are talking decades). Between the two 400 to 500 hives.


that's very cool. sounds a lot like the father/son outfit i got mine from. the son helped the dad as a kid, then the dad passed away. the son started back in 1996 with feral cut outs and has never treated. they've been great bees so far.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Arnie said:


> This is the TF philosophy that I can't get behind. The idea that we will be serving the greater good by letting our bees live or die and then continue on with the survivors. It might be true, but I just want to have my bees do well. I'm not interested in 'saving the bees'.
> 
> I know it is selfish of me, but........


I don`t want to convince anybody ,since I have some fellow beekeepers who treat. 

Kirk Webster:
It remains to be seen whether the bees now being selected by testing hygienic behavior, and by counting mites and nosema spores– while still treating the bees– will someday be able to thrive without treatments and never go through a Collapse and Recovery event. I assume this is the goal of these programs. Perhaps John Kefuss’s bees are the closest thing to this kind of success so far– he has certainly expanded and at the same time streamlined his testing procedures better than anyone. But from his writing and conversations, it seems clear that his own version of Collapse and Recovery (the “Bond Test” and “Cave Man Genetics”) have done most of the heavy lifting, and were a necessary first step before all of his testing could yield really good results. (You see how each person arrives at his or her own favorite methods.) *And there are many apiaries going through a series of Collapse and Recovery events, **despite being treated every year.*

That`s what I see in my area.
Thanks for answering, Arnie.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

SiWolKe said:


> I don`t want to convince anybody ,since I have some fellow beekeepers who treat. *And there are many apiaries going through a series of Collapse and Recovery events, **despite being treated every year.*


And the beeks said, Amen. Enough said


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

SiWolKe said:


> *And there are many apiaries going through a series of Collapse and Recovery events, **despite being treated every year.*


I know a lot of new beekeepers and unless the treatment is another 3 pound package and queen + three frames of capped brood... their bees are going to die regardless because they're not very good beekeepers. Now that cuts both ways on the TF and T side. 

The numbers don't lie, though. The narrative that just as many colonies are dying treated as untreated isn't true.


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