# Wrapping



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I know there are a lot of opinions on this and I'm still trying to form my own but, since I still haven't ever tried it really, I'd like to point out my observations and maybe some of the proponents can help me out with my concerns.

The nearest I've come to this is wrapping up a four high, two wide, stack of eight frame nucs in 2" styrofoam. The condensation was a mess and I wasn't impressed. I realize that a lot of you specify that you're not looking for insulation, just solar gain, but even if I'm looking for solar gain, won't wrapping in roofing felt seal in all that same moisture? And without the insulation won't there be even more condensation?

I'm on the verge of trying it for the first time with some 15# felt but I'm still afraid of the condensation.

I used to be afraid of them getting warm and flying out in the cold (having seen many bees do it in unwrapped hives) but now that I've had an observation hive where it's 70 F inside, I see they don't do it any more than other hives do.

Any comments from those who are wrapping with felt? And any comments from those who, instead of felt, are insulating?

I guess I'm hoping you'll help me make up my mind.


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## Brian Suchan (Apr 6, 2005)

We use the cardboard type wraps just to help block out some of the wind. make sure they have upper ventilation(auger hole or vent in the candy board) hives with them on look better in the spring & go through less feed. 

I remember when Allen Dick was around & in his diary he did quite a bit of testing with the differrent amount to use for the R value insulation.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

you know MB, there is a member here from Eugene who is a dear friend of mine and he was at the Oregon conferance and a lot of people have been wrapping there hives with bubble wrap. 

They say that it is cheaper and works better than tar paper. They also say that heat is obsorbed into the buble wrap and hits the hive.

it makes since. If you want further info, I can let you know the beekeeepr who mentioned it to me.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm sure the bubble wrap would have more R value than the roofing felt and maybe as much solar gain (at least by the time you offset it by having less loss). I'm not sure I could find a cheap enough source for bubble wrap. (I might find enough for one hive somewhere around here, but not the number I have) But then there's still the issue of ventilation that worries me.

Since I went to all migratory style covers, I did crowd them all together this year. That should help some as far as insulation. They would have shaded each other anyway in that direction so I don't think they lost any solar gain.

I also put styrofoam on top again (for the second year) because I wanted to minimize the condensation on the top.


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

Mr. Bush, if your general guideline is to let the bees take care of themselves and to trust nature (and I am beginnign to really agree with this) then any more insulation than about an inch of tree would be more than nature intended. If they needed more insulation, they would dig holes in the ground. The heat from their activities would collect in the surrounding few inches and it would be a warm place indeed. or they would build in compost piles or clumps of grass or hay piles that actually generate heat. If the answer to the question of whether a man made hivebody provides equivalent tree insulation is no, then it would seem that adding insulation up to the levelof a tree would be necessary. I guess I justdon't understand why we needto add insulation, when adding a windscreen may make more sense. your thoughts?


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

The biggest draw back that opponents to wrapping have is the bees will use more stores throughout the winter and possibly causing starvation. As far as condensation goes if you have proper ventilation I wouldnt think it should be an issue. 
Then you will have to weigh the labor and expense of the extra insulation. 
And another factor if the insulation holds the warm in it will also keep the warm out, so you might lose the solar gain of a sunny day verses just using tar paper.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

If we really want to keep bees as nature intended, then we need to send them all back from where they came. They are not native to this part of the world.

We insulated, wrap, feed, and do whatever to our hives because we are keeping bees in climates and environments that they are not normally found in. 

In nature a large percentage of hives fail to survive the winter, robbing, or disease each year. That is why the bees natural drive is to swarm and swarm often. It is natures way of replacing all of the hives that naturally fail each year. 

Michael, you know may position on wrapping hives. 
I think that the solar gain from the black felt paper makes a significant difference in being able to feed colonies late into fall, and the start again in late winter.
I think that it make a significant difference in enabling a cluster to obtain stores and food when they have starting rearing brood again.
Everything I have seen, read, including a number of studies show that the cluster does not heat the hive cavity. Whether it is a tree cavity or a manmade hive body. They create heat within the cluster and the outer bees form a layer of insulation. They lose heat to their surroundings, but not in an effort to heat the cavity they occupy.
The temperature inside the hive cavity a short distance from the cluster is almost the ambient temperature outside the hive. Insulation will keep the inside temperature of the hive more consistent. When the temperature drops outside the hive, inside it drops a little slower. When the temperature rises outside the hive, inside it rises slower.
However, the inside / outside temperature will with time be very close.
I am only speaking of the local temperatures where I keep bees, which has an average low for the winter of around -25F / -32.9C. I generally havent lost bees at the coldest part of the winter. My colony loses over the years were by far, when the temperatures were on the way up and the colonies were raising brood and lost touch with stores.
I believe that wrapping is also only part of total winter preparation.

[ December 27, 2005, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: MountainCamp ]


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

I have built sealed stryofoam boxes, with 4 sides, a top and no bottom, big enough so that I could set them down over the whole hive, migratory cover, upper entrance and all. They nearly reach down to the bottom entrance.
The idea is that heat trapped inside will move the dew-point outside of the hive. I don't know if the theory is correct, but it seems that way. The hives were dry in the spring.
This year I used an oversided styrofoam top, and tarpaper sides, and set that down over the hives. I'll let you know how that works in the spring.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>if your general guideline is to let the bees take care of themselves and to trust nature (and I am beginnign to really agree with this) then any more insulation than about an inch of tree would be more than nature intended.

And basically I've always left them to winter without wrapping because I was suspicious that it would work against them anyway.

>If the answer to the question of whether a man made hivebody provides equivalent tree insulation is no

and it is.

> then it would seem that adding insulation up to the levelof a tree would be necessary.

But it doesn't seem to be necessary. The real question is wether it will help them get through better and have a good start in the spring.

>I guess I justdon't understand why we needto add insulation, when adding a windscreen may make more sense. your thoughts? 

My thoughts for 31 years have been to not wrap. But people like Mt Camp and David of Beeworks keep telling me how much better they do with the felt.

My concern is still with the condensation.

Since I've started trying to overwinter nucs, I've been more focused on the little things because I'm trying to get bees through the winter that I know wouldn't make it if I didn't help.

So far my help, hasn't helped.


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## Canoe Caper (Jan 25, 2005)

In the UK, mesh or tubed floors are recommended as part of our Integrated Varroa Management.
Thus, condensing water vapour rolls down the side walls and drops through the floor with the CO2.
An heavily insulated roof, say 30mm + of the aluminiumised foam intended for studded walls, sandwiched in thick exterior ply, works a treat.
Thus, no top vent for Winter, it just lets the heat out.
A deeply telescoping roof is also good.
Save the top vents for Spring.

Rgds.
Malcolm


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>If we really want to keep bees as nature intended, then we need to send them all back from where they came. They are not native to this part of the world.

Good point MB. Finnally a "natural" minded man who understands bees too have limits. And we are mearly working within those limits.


>>When the temperature drops outside the hive, inside it drops a little slower. When the temperature rises outside the hive, inside it rises slower.

I agree until you get to your second point. As the temp rises, the inside of the hive rises just as fast. We are talking about heat retention within an insulated hive. That cluster is always giving off a termendious amount of heat, and as the temp rises outside, less is expelled through the insulating wrap. Hence the arguement, wraps can cause hives to prematurly brood in mid winter, which in turn causes hive stavation as late winter cold snaps fall on them. 

>>My concern is still with the condensation.


In my experience, condensation is not a factor as long as I use an upper enterence. It creates an unrestriced enterence at all times, and works well at creating anatural air current to expell CO2 and humidity.

Last year I had one of my yard completely covered in 8-10 feet of snow Didnt know what to make of it till walking over I fell into a melted cavern made the heat expelled from the upper enterences. A good 4 foot by four foot cavern infrount of each pack. It was my best wintered yard last year.

I wrap in 4's with fiberglas insulation with tar paper covering. Inital investment is about 4$/hive,and cost a mear $1/hive yearly maintence. Works for me. 

Rodents are a big problem in distroying wrap, so I am wearly about investing 50$/wrap tohave them eat it apart. The method I use is cheap. Some guys here use a mouse repellant, which work, I think. I am going to try it next year along side my poison.

But I doubt in your climate you will need sutch winter hive prep.

Started wintering inside in bigger volume this winter. It is working out very well for me. So who knows how I willend up wintering my bees in the distant future. Al least I have some options.

[ December 02, 2005, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: Ian ]


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

"Analysis of readings taken during a 24-hour period shows that the temperature of the packed hives lagged behind that of the outside air for 6 to 8 hours. The total change in the hive temperature outside the cluster was only about one-third as great as that of the outside temperature."

Ian this is from a study done:
THE THERMOLOGY OF WINTERING HONEY BEE COLONIES

By CHARLES D. OWENS, Agricultural Engineering Research Division,
Agricultural Research Service

It is on this site under USDA #13


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

To wrap or not to wrap? Often I am tempted but never have "yet". Just so happens There is a roll of felt paper sittin out in the shed that is not doing anything so I may as well experiment of a couple hives to see for myself.
My mother told me (many years ago)about one of her great uncles keeping his hives in the living room over winter with the privacy doors drawn between the living quarters, the window was left open several inches and when the bees needed to go to the "outhouse" or whatever there was no problem. Back then there was not central heating just stoves or fireplaces, the bees did fine.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

It takes 1 btu to raise 1lb of water 1 degree F.
It takes 1/4 btu to raise 1 lb of air 1 degree F
So you have 10's of pounds of honey to warm, plus all of the hive parts.
Air at 14.7 psia & 30F has a specific volume of 11.67 ft3 / lb.
You physically can not move enough heat from the air into the honey and hive parts to make a difference.
Plus this warm air is rising and escaping through the upper ventilation.
With the felt paper wrap solar radiation is what heats the hive and honey- radiant and conductive heating are the methods of warming.
This warmed hive and honey act as radiators after the sun goes down keeping the hive warmer than it would otherwise be.

[ December 03, 2005, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: MountainCamp ]


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## Pat Brady (Jan 18, 2005)

Michael sounds like MountianCamp knows what he's talking about. Looks good on paper. I agree with him about wrapping. We don't insulate our hives, although I do use foam board on top of the intercover. We staple roofing paper around the hives and provide an upper vent. Had good luck with wrapping. The bees IMO come through the winter in beter condition. I inspect my hives on a warm day in Feb. to check on stores. You could try a few hives and see how it works for you in your part of the country. What works good in one local may not work for someone in a different location.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Here in Maine the practice I've been taught is to wrap with roofing felt - have upper vents (yes plural) 1) near the top of the upper brood chamber and 2) a notched inner cover. I place a piece of homasote over the inner cover to absorb excess moisture and set some sticks (uncut frame endbars) on on end of the homasote so that the outer cover doesn't sit right on top of the full length of the homasote. The theory is that the air space gives any excess moisture collected by the homasote a chance to evaporate. Works well in this area.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

>You physically can not move enough heat from the air into the honey and hive parts to make a difference.

I need to add something to my above statement.
The bees generate a considerable amount of heat energy by consuming honey and moving their flying muscles.
They will increase the temperatures of their surroundings in the hive. By conductive and radiant heating themselves.
In an insulated hive this heat energy is held in the hive to a greater degree than in an un-insulated hive. 
Therefore they will increase the internal temperature of the hive, even thou that is not their intention.


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

MountainCamp, has the most logical viewpoint, it applies the laws of thermal dynamics. The point he makes that the bees do not keep the inside of the hive warm only the cluster, is an important one. The lag time of solar effect of an insulated hive , verses one only wrapped with tar paper could be crucial with daylight in the winter only about 10 hours, with a 6 to 8 hour lag to much solar btus are lost.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Plastic coat hangers placed on top of a flat inner cover provide a perfect beespace worth of ventilation, without letting wind or light into the hive.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Sorry, I meant to address that to Andrew. I use two of them with the coat-hanger bottoms toward the front and rear respctively. Its a great help, especially if you don't have notched inner covers.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Analysis of readings taken during a 24-hour period shows that the temperature of the packed hives lagged behind that of the outside air for 6 to 8 hours. 

packed hives lag 6-8 hours behind outside air, and unpacked hives lag 1-3 hours,

Yet, the cluster of the packed hives responds immediately with increasing temperature fluctuations than the unpacked hives do. 
Takes more time for the unpacked hives to respond to increasing temperature fluctuations, even if its hive body warms faster? 

Dont let the lag time fool you.

[ December 03, 2005, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: Ian ]


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

Some may find this page of interest.

http://www.sasktelwebsite.net/gilmar/revisited.html


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Pretty incredible statistics, great information. Thanks for the link! We are in the process of phasing out our southern operation due to the impending AHB and AHB which will work it's way north over the next couple of years. This exactly how I'd like to winter hives in the north. (or south for you  )


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## Gabriella (Dec 4, 2005)

Hello. I hope to contribute something as I am picking up a lot of tips from all of you. 
This year I used up all the roofing paper for something else so I wrapped the hives in several layers of black landscape fabric because I kept forgetting to go buy more roofing paper. The bees cling to the fabric on nice days and it is breathable, so I've had NO condensation this year so far. Plus, it was much easier to install. I rolled it around the hives a few times, folded the tops down to fit, and stapled the seam and a few staples around the entrances. Sometimes having ADD is very good for beekeeping.


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Gabriella--sounds good to me!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Sometimes having ADD is very good for beekeeping.

I agree. little help sometimes goes a long way.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I've been on the fence on this issue until this year. The logic I've heard against it is in relation to loss of bees on sunny days when the inside temps are higher than outside due to solar gain. Mountaincamp posted his yearly results earlier this year and there appears to be a clear co-relation between wrapping and wintering success. There was also a link recently (within the last week) on this post that showed the results a Canadian operation had wintering wrapped singles (wraped in quads and well insultated as opposed to just felt or plastic). There results were also very dramatic, to the point they discontinued wintering any hives inside and were able to have hives that allowed them to sell nucs in the spring. Very similar results in the ABJ article about wintering hives in an insulated bldg with a timed ventalation fan. Of course we know bees don't heat the hive body, only the cluster. It seems though the less heat that escapes, the less wind that penetrates cracks between supers chilling the bees and increased ambient temperatures in hives would require less energy expended to heat, less food consumed and less stress on the cluster. As someone working hard to eliminate my southern operation most of what I'm reading supports wrapping (espcially with insulation in quads.

I like the ideal of letting bees do what is natural. Unfortunately little of how we keep bees reflects that due to differences in heat and cold transferrence from different types of foundations and woodenware as well as food storage. We force bees to store their food in a square nest which is contraty to the best interest of a tight round winter cluster. Hives bodies are not as heavy as any tree trunk I've seen bees in and do not have the added balance of 40 degree tree sap which adds to the thermal gain on warm winter days from the middle of January on (in mya area) as sap rises on warmer days. With the continued spread of AHB's and AHB's I believe we will all need to winter more bees as packagages and queens become more expensive and hard to get during what will likely be a several year transition. If we want to think natural we have to think how we effect the biodynamics and what we do to adjust accodingly.

Just my thoughts!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I've been on the fence on this issue until this year.

Hmm, I just got on the fence. I used to be on the other side.









>The logic I've heard against it is in relation to loss of bees on sunny days when the inside temps are higher than outside due to solar gain. 

That was my logic until I watched the observation hive do well all winter while inside at 70 F.

>Mountaincamp posted his yearly results earlier this year and there appears to be a clear co-relation between wrapping and wintering success. 

That's what I keep hearing, it just doesn't jive with the condensation problems I've had when I tried it with nucs (I've never tried it with a real hive).

>Of course we know bees don't heat the hive body, only the cluster. It seems though the less heat that escapes, the less wind that penetrates cracks between supers chilling the bees and increased ambient temperatures in hives would require less energy expended to heat, less food consumed and less stress on the cluster.

No matter how much you arge that they don't heat the hive, they do heat the hive. The colder it is in the hive the more quickly they lose heat and the more heat they have to make. They may not heat it much, but they ARE giving off heat and that heat is going into the hive.

>As someone working hard to eliminate my southern operation most of what I'm reading supports wrapping (espcially with insulation in quads.

So far I pushed all the hives together this year (no telescopic covers anymore), but didn't wrap yet. I am considering whether I will do the roofing felt or styrofoam or anything.

> Hives bodies are not as heavy as any tree trunk I've seen bees in and do not have the added balance of 40 degree tree sap which adds to the thermal gain on warm winter days from the middle of January on (in mya area) as sap rises on warmer days.

Exactly.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Last year I wrapped with felt and folded it over the top then put the cover on. I had top entrances drilled in the top boxes. I still had alot of problems with condensation. I had so much on one hive that the wood inner cover (sheet of plywood) swelled way up. Even so I didn't lose a hive. Had I been running migratory tops though I believe it would have killed the hive. The inner covers absorbed alot of the water.

This year I cut top entrances into my inner covers or migratory tops with my dado. When I wrapped, (I didn't wrap all hives)the felt stopped about an inch below where the telescoping top came down the side. I think with my entrances at the very top of the hive and my felt not holding the moisture in under the cover the condensation will be minimal. Time will tell.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

[No matter how much you arge that they don't heat the hive, they do heat the hive. The colder it is in the hive the more quickly they lose heat and the more heat they have to make. They may not heat it much, but they ARE giving off heat and that heat is going into the hive.]

I live in house which I heat, some heat escapes outside, am I heating the outside, no. I agree with the concept colder temps inside the hive require more energy if that wasn't clear in my post.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>[No matter how much you arge that they don't heat the hive, they do heat the hive. 

>I agree with the concept colder temps inside the hive require more energy if that wasn't clear in my post.

I didn't mean "you" in particular. But I often hear the argument that the bees don't heat the hive so therefore it doesn't matter how big the space is or how insulated the space is.

Anyone who has spent a winter in a varitey of tents would know this isn't true. It DOES matter how big it is, how insulated the walls are, if there are double walls or single etc. Very small differences in reflection (light colored vs dark) or insulation (thick vs thin or double vs single walls) or condensation (double vs single, controled ventilation vs closed off) or how drafty it is, make a huge difference in comfort even if the air temperature is not that different inside.

The thermodynamics of the inside of a hive are related to the bees having to eveaporate water that drips on them (look up the amount of heat this takes. It's huge), the radiant heat reflecting off of the walls, the draft of cold wind blowing in, the dampness of the air transfering heat away more quickly than dry air, and other factors. Air temperature is not the only factor. If you don't believe that, on a cold day stand on the sunny leeward side of a house and then walk around and stand on the shady windward side of the house and I'll tell you the air temperature is exactly the same on both sides. Then you can tell me that it doesn't matter because the temperature is the same on both sides. Or on a hot day stand in a breezy shady place and then a sunny place with the wind blocked and remember the air temperature is exactly the same in both places. Thermodynamics is about more than air temperatures.


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## NW IN Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2005)

Has anyone ever tested "peaked" style covers? 

Its seems that the big concern is dripping condensation on the cluster. If, or when, condensation occurs, would it not follow the tape of the cover and drip to the walls, or even better yet, drip outside the hive walls if the cover was suffciently oversized the hive body dimensions?


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

>>Mountaincamp posted his yearly results earlier this year and there appears to be a clear co-relation between wrapping and wintering success. 

>That's what I keep hearing, it just doesn't jive with the condensation problems I've had when I tried it with nucs (I've never tried it with a real hive).

When you wrap a hive with felt paper, plastic, insulation or anything or when you close all of the entrances down to the bare minimum, you have to take condensation and moisture into consideration.

I has taken me several winters of trying different setups, to get to where I am.
On another thread and in the past, I have mentioned that when I first wrapped hives and set them up in Catskill, a few hundred feet from the Hudson River, I lost (3) of (6) hives the first year to moisture. The following year, I did not wrap and lost (2) of (6) hives here, (1) cold starved and (1) to Moisture.
Then the next year I added paper, granular sugar, SBB and left them open for the winter for the winter.

I dont believe that there is a one size fits all cure to wintering bees. Everyone has their own macro and micro climates that they deal with. Every yard I keep bees at is a little different from the others. Round Top at my home is the coldest and windiest, while Catskill is the warmest and wettest. However, you can find a starting point and make your changes and adjustments from there.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

>on a cold day stand on the sunny leeward side of a house and then walk around and stand on the shady windward side of the house and I'll tell you the air temperature is exactly the same on both sides.

This is exactly the argument for wrapping a hive. The felt paper wrap blocks wind penetration into the hive, while it increases the solar gain of the hive. Both hives are at the same ambient air temperatures, but the wrapped hive will be warmer. 

As for condensate dripping back on to the cluster requiring it to expend extra energy, this is one reason why I place the paper and granular sugar in the hive. The warm moist air moves to the outside edges of the hive and not directly up from the cluster to the top of the hive. Some of the water vapor is absorbed by the paper and sugar and any condensate that drips from the inner cover falls on the sugar / paper.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Joel, read this web page, 

http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/thermology/techbulletin1429.htm 


The most interesting peice of information I have seen in a long while. Exactly what I was looking for at the time.


I keep hearing the arguement, that the cluster doesent heat the inside of the hive, and frankly cant understand where it is comming from. 

>>I live in house which I heat, some heat escapes outside, am I heating the outside, no.

Yes you are. The house is loosing heat. And if you had an insulating shell surrounding your house, the ambient air b/w the house and the insulated shel would be warmer than outside. Its thermal dynamics. 

A wrapped beehive behaves in the same fassion. But as colder it gets, the tighter the cluster, and the less heat escapes the cluster. At lower temps, it takes more heat to maintain even a smaller volume of cluster. 

But there is heat escape, and the ambient temp stays warmer longer as the outside air drops in the wrapped colonies than the unwrapped colonies. This allows the wrapped hives to maintain a larger cluster, with a smaller insulating crust.

Now you will tell me that the temperature of the hives outside the clusters are basically the same during the cold long durations, but I will still tell you that the wrapped hives are maintaining a warmer hive temperature. Must realize, that if there is a larger cluster being maintained in a certain volume hive, it mean that the energy the insulation is saving is translating to a larger cluster. The larger the heated volume in the hive, the warmer the overall temp of the hive.

Now when it warms, everyone tells me that it takes longer to bring the ambient temp inside the insulated hive up, with the so called lag time. But if this were true, why does the wrapped hives respond instantly to warming temps, expanding their cluster sizes accordingly. Where as uninsulated hives will hold their tight cluster until a long durated warming trend.
You cant scale the hives acticity using the hives ambient temp. The insulation hives warm directly due to the decrease in heat loss by the insulation. And they use that saved energy to heat more of the hive with a larger cluster. 
Where as the uninsulated hives cant break thier thight cluster as effieciently, as quickly, by not having the saved energy from insulation, therefore missing out on short mild spirts. 

Its all thermal dynamic. It is just you have to figure out how the bees are managing and maintaining the heat loss within the cluster.

[ December 06, 2005, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Ian ]


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{I keep hearing the arguement, that the cluster doesent heat the inside of the hive, and frankly cant understand where it is comming from}

It's coming from the dynamics of how bees survive the winter, it is a fact. You are arguing a point I'm not trying to make, I agree with the premise heat escapes from a cluster and the internal temperature of a well insulated hive will help hold that heat and use less energy. The fact is the bees intention (my point) is there cluster design is to heat a cluster not the cavity. They could not heat a hive in cold weather and survive. Bees cluster at around 60 degrees. The cluster size expands or contracts in direct proportion to the number of bees and ambient temperatures. The bees on the outside layers of the cluster are not flexing their wing muscles to create heat, they are insulation containing (most of) the heat within the cluster. If Brood is present in the cluster that area the will be heated to about 95 F. When no brood are present temperatures may drop (within the cluster)to around 70 degrees. The ambient temperature within the hive body/bodies will not change dramatically. There is a dramatic difference between the center of a brood cluster (95F) and the ambient temperature around the cluster which will be close to outside air temperature, Why you may ask? The bees purpose is to heat the cluster, not the cavity. If you still don't get the concept of what I'm saying I'll see if I can find the recent ABJ. article where they used Thermal Imaging to photograph the Thermal Dynamic you speak of. It clearly shows the bees are not making an effort to heat the hive but in fact are making every effort to maintain the heat within the cluster. I don't have to figure out the thermal dynamics, it's been published several times in research articles.

Now I insist on and end of this debate before I get really confused! 

[ December 06, 2005, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{Hmm, I just got on the fence. I used to be on the other side.}

As I read this again I realized I didn't know which way you were headed over the fence?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>well insulated hive will help hold that heat and use less energy.

No, thats not the point. They will use the same energy, but are able to maintain a larger cluster with that saved energy from the insulation provided. And in comparing it to uninsulated hives, insualted hives will have a overall warmer hive volume.

[ December 06, 2005, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Ian ]


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

And suddenenly your point becomes crystal clear! But now I am confused, if that's your thinking why would you not advocate insulating?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Boy, you must be confused,  

Perhaps your better off reading your magazines,.. 









[ December 06, 2005, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Ian ]


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Maybe it would help more if you read them. 

If the hive is warmer inside due to insulation why would the bees expend the same energy to create less heat. (AHA!)  

I reread you post and see you winter inside and wrap. I want to winter inside. What's a brief of your program.

[ December 06, 2005, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>As I read this again I realized I didn't know which way you were headed over the fence?

I have never wrapped, except for a group of nucs last winter. I was considering wrapping, but was still trying to figure out the condensation problem when I wrapped the nucs.


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## honeylocust (May 11, 2004)

My hives are wrapped with the black felt paper, but my concern is that I am losing too many bees to the act of flying out into freezing (16 degree) weather and then dying within yards of the hive. This only happens on the sunny days. 

I feel that the black paper (which is warm to the touch on the sunny days) is fooling the bees into mass suicide. It is sad to look at all the bees dead in the snow. 

Would they not be better off without the black felt?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Then were headed in the same direction. I have not put much effort in wintering over the last 10 years due our southern yards. I have wintered bees but my purpose was to do 15 or 20 hives and then haul the surviors down in the spring for breeding. I'd be happy to hear any consclusions you come to on condensation, a huge problem here. I'll post anything I find. Any feedback on bees exiting due to warm temps in the hive.


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## Blue.eyed.Wolf (Oct 3, 2005)

I have been following this thread hoping to hear a clear consensis. So far I am not sure where anyone stands. How about a vote...a sound off


Wrap yes
Wrap no
Insulate yes
Insulate no

This would sure help me follow yor reasoning.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

HAHAHA-HA A concensus among beekeepers, and on beesource!  

We raise an idea which everyone promptly pummels to withing an inch of it's life using experiance, published scientific studies, rank rumors and any possible hypothesis. (great for learing). We try to use as many big words as possible (except on taligater which has been suspended because of Bjorn and Bubba bob who is in exile) We then put that into a grist mill and grind it until it is as fine as talcum powder. We all make our best informed decision from the facts and apply them in our operations getting a wide variety of impossibly different results. That's beekeeping. But boy do we have fun.

You could try doing a poll though. (see post a poll below).

[ December 06, 2005, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>We then put that into a grist mill and grind it until it is as fine as talcum powder

And then what- dust our hives with it?

Just about laughed myself silly there Joel.

George-


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## Blue.eyed.Wolf (Oct 3, 2005)

Ah... well, it was worth a try.
I cant wait till I learn enough big words and facts and figures to argue with the big boys.


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## franc (Jan 7, 2003)

I like to wrap in black or tinted saran wrap its cheap and easy to wrap a hive with about 1.50 a roll.The tint provides a dark surface like the tar paper to increase solar gain.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I place an empty box on top of the hive.
I place granular sugar on paper on the top bars.
I wrap my hives with black felt paper.

Bees flying out into cold temperatures and dying: I have not seen this as a problem. Bees die everyday in the life of a colony, the dead are removed from the hive whenever possible. Many times during the winter they are dropped just outside the hive and litter the snow. Bees during winter will fly out and collect water from the top of the snow, and some do not make it back. Bees take cleansing flights and some will not make it back. Things however need to be put into perspective, remember there are 20  30, 000 bees in your winter cluster.

Condensation: I have found that using an empty box, paper, and granular sugar work to resolve my moisture issues. The paper and granular sugar absorb water vapor. Being placed in the center of the hive, the warm moist air is forced to flow around it to the edges of the hive boxes. Any moisture that condenses on the inner cover and falls back down  falls onto the sugar / paper. I have found condensate frozen along the top edges of the empty hive box. This moisture will drip down the side walls and not down on the cluster.


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## Blue.eyed.Wolf (Oct 3, 2005)

Thanks Joel, but I think I'll skip the post-a-poll. I pretty much figure I would get ..

100 responses-
75 for
75 against

position noted franc, medesto in zone 5?


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

With this topic just like every topic with beekeeping, there are many answers and options. Much of this is based on the wide range of climates and environments that everyone is keeping bees in.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>If the hive is warmer inside due to insulation why would the bees expend the same energy to create less heat.

No, they expend the same energy, but hold a larger, looser cluster.
Boy, now my head is starting to spinn!!

>>my concern is that I am losing too many bees to the act of flying out into freezing (16 degree) weather and then dying within yards of the hive. This only happens on the sunny days.


Well, I dont believe that is the reason they are leaveing the hive. I beleive they are leaving due to they are stressed and are nearing death, so they vacate the hive, just as they would during the summer. Mild spell just present the oportuity to break cluster and activly fly away.

I keep bees inside. And guess what. The bees do the exact same thing indoors. My wintering sheds are completely dark 24 hours and my temp is maintained @ 2 degrees C. Yet my floor is still littered with bees. 
But I have found a pattern (over the last few years of limited experience). More bees vacate the hives before christmas than after christmas. Why? I think it is the older summerbees that were still hanging in the hive as the hive prepaired for winter. After christmas, I start loosing alot of bees as spring comes,and the hives start to get restless. 
Why would it be any different with outdoor hives. And think of it, if it were actually true, why does the majority of the cluster stay inside?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Michael,if you have been successfully wintering bees without further winter prep, then why start now?

I believe that wrapping gives my hives a dramatic advantage throughout winter. Helps settle my nerves also!!

But I also believe that they would winter just fine throughout the most of the cold periods of winter successfully without wrap. And that is until spring, where sudden warming/cold snaps start killing off even the best of them, and food stores start to fall short.
As I see it, you dont get those late winter/early spring killer cold troughs. So heavey wrapping would just be time and money wasted. Perhaps even light wrapping depending on where you winter your bees.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Indoor wintering, breif overview,

You need to be in an area there is a long cold wintering period, to make it feasable, and to properly maintain a consistant wintering temp inside the chamber.

Bring your hives in on the onset of winter, usually just before a cold snap in early NOV.

Hives must bein complete darkness til set out in April on a warming trend.

Ventalation requerments- 70 liters/second air exchange per hive. 

Circulation of air in chamber at all times to mix out the CO2 layers and keep the room at a consistant temp floor to ceiling. Important when hives are stacked 8 high.

Heat source needed, only during cold snaps. I keep my room @ 2 degrees C. The heater only comes on for the short periods during -30 degree weather.

As temp rises comming spring, Air exchange is increased to help maintain lower temps in the room otherwise the bees will climb everywhere outside there hives. THey can tolerate a few hours @15degreesC, but only for one or two spaced days as spring sets in.

Must be sure to set the bees out on a warming trend. They are not winter hardend, and cnat take extended cold periods when set outside. It is why it is important to get them through some warm days inthe chamber as spring arrives, to avoid settng them out in a cold snap.

Winter smaller hives indoors, which will produce much the same a outdoor wintered hives. Winter losses varry dependingon theyear B/W the two methods. But my wintering as both, the averages prevail.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael,if you have been successfully wintering bees without further winter prep, then why start now?

That's why it's a hard decision for me. But since I started rearing queens, I need more bees sooner so I have enough to to make up mating nucs and cell builders and such and I've been trying to overwinter nucs so I can sell them and have more queens in the spring. I am afraid I'll make things worse instead of better. But so many people keep saying it's a good idea that I'm tempted to try it.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Run with it!!


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

Michael:

Your debate about wrapping seems to revolve around condensation problems, I have read in some of your many posts that you only maintain a top entrance during winter. That could be a problem as heat and moisture rises within the hive you will have limited air circulation. I keep the bottom entrance open using a mouse guard, along with a upper entrance in the top super. Also I maintain a port threw the inner cover for circulation. I have never seen moisture build up on any of my hives living next to lake Michigan humidity levels are always above 50%. Perhaps an experiment is in order? Provide bottom and top entrances on some hives and only top entrances on others, and see what happens.


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## Blue.eyed.Wolf (Oct 3, 2005)

Michael, you mentioned wintering nucs for spring sale. Thats where I am hoping ot go also. Hopefully by the end of next season I should have enough bees to pull it off. My "brilliant and cunning" plan is to keep them an a single medium, stacked 4 or 5 high, with a screen between each. Planing to go with NWC because of thier small winter cluster. 

Anyone care to point out the flaws in the plan? I'd rather learn form ya'lls mistakes that have to relearn what you already know.

Winter temps here bounce from -10 to 40, with little consistant snow cover.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>My "brilliant and cunning" plan is to keep them an a single medium, stacked 4 or 5 high, with a screen between each.

Well here's what I tried. First I tried single ten frame medium nucs on top of a strong hives with a double screened inner cover between and the notch of the inner cover up for the entrance for the nuc. In spite of such a small screened area, most succumbed to a lot of condensation from the hive below.

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/ApartmentNucsWintering.JPG
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/ApartmentNucsWrappedInFoam.jpg


The next year I stacked them up with no screen but thin plywood between, on the theory that I didn't want to overwelm them with the humidity from below. I put eight, eight frame nucs in a double stack of four each. I warpped this whole affair in 2" styrofoam. Again the condensation was the biggest problem, I'm assuming from their own hive. That and they seemed to die out from the bottom, where they got no heat, to the top where they got heat from the one below.

This year I'm trying this:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/OverwinteringNucs1.jpg 

There are feeders on each and a thermostatically controled heater inside to heat the backs and tops and feeders on all the hives. There is an additional terrarium heater under a queen bank to see if I can get extra queens through.

The model for this was the observation hive in the living room which is heated and fed all winter with only a few frames of bees and right now is rearing brood.

>Planing to go with NWC because of thier small winter cluster. 

I think that would help. The ferals are even smaller clusters.

>Anyone care to point out the flaws in the plan? 

I think if you stack them up with the screens between they will all die from the condensation.

>I'd rather learn form ya'lls mistakes that have to relearn what you already know.

That always helps.

>Winter temps here bounce from -10 to 40, with little consistant snow cover.

Same here except it sometimes hits -30, and usually hits -20 for a while and an occasional 50 or 60.

Based on the observation hive rearing brood, I'm planning on putting in pollen next warm day we get.

[ December 07, 2005, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Michael Bush ]


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## franc (Jan 7, 2003)

Micheal,the heated hives look like a pretty good idea.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>the heated hives look like a pretty good idea. 

We will see.







I hope so.


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## Blue.eyed.Wolf (Oct 3, 2005)

>NWC make small clusters...
>ferals make smaller clusters...


Michael, just found and read the thread on "feral queens for sale" . I'll be hitting you up for some this summer.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael, just found and read the thread on "feral queens for sale" . I'll be hitting you up for some this summer.

I look forward to it.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

For all you "wrappers" out there: What time of the year do you start bundling and unbundling the hives (please no rhythm and MC jokes)


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I try to get my hive wrapped well before the winter weather comes in. But it is nice to do this job when it is a little cooler, so there isnt so many angry bees bothering me. Late Oct.
I like to unwrap a week or two before my queens arrive for early splitting. Mid-late April.
One spring I didnt get around to unwrapping due cool presistant weather, and ended up unwrapping and performing broodwork at the same time. Did not enjoy it at all, due to the extra work needed/yard. Early spring brood work is finicy, due to uncertain spring weather,so it is nice to be able to focus only on splitting during that time.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I've placed tarps in the past on hives, more as an umbrella than for insulative purposes. I think it helped, except it was a pain to feed bees in the spring. I ended up spending more time removing and tying down these tarps than I did feeding. This year I purchased insulated blankets that cover the hives 66" by 72". This covers a 4 pack of singles or my nucs that are 6 to a pallet or the top box of doubles. They'll keep the rain off and should help in the spring for earlier brooding.

As far as any "brilliant and cunning ideas" are concerned, Mr Blue eyed wolf you are headed for a big time disaster. My limited experience, once was enough. However the next year I used solid inner covers. Small unit goes on the strong. Strong unit has a top vent from the inner cover and the weak unit sits on top of the inner cover and also has an inner cover on top of it. Top bees use it as an entrance. This system works but is a pain when you want to work the lower unit. 

Jean-Marc


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

I wrap my hives when the weather looks like it will stay cold for a prolonged time usually in early to mid November.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Well, maybe it's a bit late, but I wrapped mine (which are all butted against each other) as a group with 15# felt yesterday. A first in 31 years, and It makes me nervous.







I am still a bit worried about condensation.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I read your previous post on this subject, but didn't see any mention of a ventilated cover. Mike Palmer, from Vermont, wraps all of his colonies and winters 4 frame nucs on top of strong colonies. I'm not sure how he vents them. Buster Smith, of Antwerp, NY wraps his hives in late October or early November. He has an inner cover proped up with a small stick in two adjacent corners. Then he wraps his tar paper around the hive and weighs the top down with another flat cover and a rock. His hive consist of a shallow super, then two deeps with the top deep set forward a little for extra ventilation and so that any condensation that collects on the inner cover will run down the face of the top super and out of the hive. It seems to work for him.
Mark


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Mine all have SBB with a tray in and an upper entrance. Only an upper entrance. i also have styrofoam on the lid to cut down on condensation on the lid. Several, but not all, have a vent box on top of a vented inner cover with a wide notch for the top entrance.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

And still you have a condensation problem? The wrapping recomendations that I first heard of said to use straw under the cover, on top of the top bars I believe. Straw, not hay. Straw will wick the moisture away. Hay will hold it and get moldy. Wouldn't you be better off will drier bees rather than insulated bees? Just a thought.

Mark


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## barbeebee (Sep 11, 2004)

Great information!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>And still you have a condensation problem?

When I've tried to wrap a nuc (I've never wrapped a hive before) I've always seen LOT'S of condensation. So I'm concerned. I don't know that I have condensation on these, since I just wrapped them Sunday.

>Wouldn't you be better off will drier bees rather than insulated bees?

Precisely my worry about wrapping. But the people in the North who do it certainly seem to think it makes a noticable, positive, difference.

We will see.


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## Brown's Organic Farm (Nov 29, 2005)

A well-known beekeeper here in Maine helped me with my hives this fall. He wraps them in tarpaper and places a piece of homosote (sp?)above the inner cover. He said I will have no problem with moisture. We'll see.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael, Do you have enough to experiment with? Wrap half and leave the other half unwrapped? There are people here in Northern New York who don't wrap and those who do. Before 1980 I don't think anyone wrapped and winter loss was very low. Of course that was pre-mite days. But the popularity of wrapping started before the mites arrived. I don't winter anything in NY, so I can't speak from personal experience. But when I start to winter bees here I will follow Buster Smith's example and wrap. Buster is probably the most successful beekeeper in the North Country. Along with Mike Palmer and Rich Wakefield, that is. Rich and Mike wrap. Palmer is available on Bee-L, as you may already know. Drop him a line. I'm sure that he would have some good advice.

Mark


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Well, my long (horizontal) hives won't get wrapped because of the logistics. They have foam on top (20" by 48") but the sides are 7 1/4" high and 20" by 48" around and they have a 2 by 2 cleat running the long ways. So all in all, I don't see how it's practical. The eight frame vertical hives are all pushed togehter, so I may as well wrap them all together. Besides. I think I have a pretty good idea how unwrapped hives do. I've been not wrapping them for 31 years now.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

In the eighties, prior to mites, my father had some hives on his upstate N.Y farm. He would wrap them each fall with a single piece of tar paper. I'd help him with the bees in spring when I travelled to N.Y. for a visit. One fall he told me he was going to experiment with the bees by not wrapping, though I suspect he just didn't feel up to doing it. I lived in Anchorage, so I couldn't do it for him. My thought was "Oh great! Now the bees are all going to die." When I returned to N.Y. in early May the hives were in great shape as were the numerous queen cells within. We did some quick and dirty walk-away splits to make more hives and never worried about wrapping again.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

All I'm really hoping to gain is more brood earlier so I'll have more bees to work with to rear queens and sell nucs. I've never had trouble getting them through the winter without the wrap.


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## bourdeaubee (Dec 23, 2005)

Ian 
>>Hives must be in complete darkness til set out in April on a warming trend.
If the hives are put in complete darkness in the winter then how does the queen know when to start laying?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Some say the hives leave broodless, for it makes sence being in complete darkness. Otheres claim the bees will brood all the same,

A studdy up here on formic acid treatmetn to hives within the confines of a wintering shed showed that in one situation, where they basically gassed off a studdy chamber to determine the formic tolerance on the bees, showed dead hives with brood present in them. So, that said, I think they do brood within the chamber later in winter. What triggers it, I dont know. 
Swarm-trapper has suggested that fellow beekeeper he has talked to will promote brooding with humidity levels in the chamber. 

I have limited experience with indoor wintering. 

Last year, due to a very unusual weather year, I had caught many small late season August swarms. They entered the chamber hardly bigger than a softball. I kind of wrote them off,set my temp, and forgot about them til mid Feb. or so. They had at least doubled, some trippled in size. I actually lost some to starvation that winter due to my lack of judgement. I had no idea they would grow as sutch. I dont disturb the colonies after setting them out, so I dont know if there was brood present or not. But I can only guess that there was.

Anyhow, not to say this always happens. Perhaps there was an external factor that I was not aware of that caused this pleasent fortune. 
Could of been the extreemly high amount of pollen collected late that fall, I know I greatly affected the growth of my outdoor wintered hives.

Any Ideas?


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## bourdeaubee (Dec 23, 2005)

overwintering colonies in darkness sounds like it could bee a good idea if it limits the brood alittle I guess that would mean less honey consumed by the bees.I always woundered how the bees would know how the days where getting longer if they are in the winter cluster.


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