# Can a hobbyist be successful?



## saltyoldman (Feb 1, 2009)

Can a hobbyist be successful? How many have been to a bee club meeting and talked with the one and two year beekeepers and listen to their lament. “I had two strong hives, started from packages, going into winter and I looked in this weekend and they are both dead.” Or the complaints, “three of my four hives are gone.”

Much of the blame in the Northeast, where I am from, is placed on southern packages, mite loads, and nosema. But what if they bought two nucs from a local supplier and treated for mites and treated with fumagilin, where do you now place the blame. I have heard from others of such experiences. Do we chalk it up to PPB (Piss Poor Beekeeping) or is there something more at work here? 

Are the odds of success stacked against them and with more hives comes a modicum of success, with success being having survivors going into spring. 

Maybe we should be telling the new beekeeper to cut their teeth on 2 to 4 and learn from your mistakes but expect major losses or total failure. Tell them your hive count is too low a threshold of investment. Should we be advocating a 10 hive minimum, once you have passed the first year or two of mistakes? Should we be schooling them more about splitting to achieve this hive count and point them in the direction of local queen suppliers.

Can the hobbyist ever get off of the treadmill of buying packages and nucs….or is it forever his rock to push up the hill?

Thoughts?


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Hi,
I don't live in a climate as cold as yours, but have to disagree with you from my perspective.
We are hobbyist beekeepers in our fourth year. Don't use anything in our hives other than powdered sugar.
Last 2 years we had 100% survival over winter. 7 hives/ 5 hives. Our first year we had 2, & lost one.
Our clusters get small in the winter, which might doom us if we where in a colder climate.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The problem is that all those treatments (for Nosema for instance) kill off all the beneficial microbes that would be protecting the bees from pathogens...

I know a lot of successful hobbyists.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> I know a lot of successful hobbyists.



What is the average number of hives of those hobbyist? Is someone with just a couple of hives apt to have long term success in Maine?


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

A hobby beekeeper should not be confused with Sisyphus - but I do think we need to do a better job of setting expectations with new beekeepers - particularly in the areas of recognizing that beekeeping is an agricultural pursuit (and you'll have deadstock as well as livestock) and in the area of processing and understanding what their eyes see. Having kept bees for about 10 years now and having bought too many packages and nucs over the years - I conclude that most of the time new beekeepers end up with mediocre at best stock - and that only experience is going to teach them what a "strong" hive looks like.

Geography plays a huge role and I think many first time beekeepers succeed or fail largely due to factors beyond their control - available forage, water, etc. As well as inexperience in "reading" their colonies. Beekeeping is not a constant do A and B will happen. Using Nosema as an example, you can't with a straight face say to a new beekeeper if you are concerned about Nosema, feed sugar syrup mixed with Fumagillin fall and spring. There are too many factors for a new beekeeper to account for, and in all likelihood one of those factors is going to bite them in the butt. What factors? Things like are you dealing with Nosema Apis or Nosema Ceranae? What are the "side effects" of feeding Fumagillin and are you ok with them? Did the beekeeper calculate and mix the dosage correctly? Is Nosema even a problem in your area? This list is not intended to be exhaustive of the kinds of "surprises" new beekeepers can run into when told to treat prophylacticly for Nosema.

I think this all begs the question of how do you set the new beekeeper up for success?

I have an errand to run off to so I'll end this now. Maybe others can comment on techniques and ways new beekeepers can be successful.


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## dmpower (Nov 7, 2010)

ralittlefield said:


> What is the average number of hives of those hobbyist? Is someone with just a couple of hives apt to have long term success in Maine?


I am by no means experienced, but am a hobbyist. I'm in Central Indiana. By many this is south, by more this is north. We have winters (usually) with long stretches of of cold and snow. I personally consider this area south because I originally hail from Toronto.
As a hobbyist I was instructed to have more than 1 hive and to start with as many as 4. I started with 2 nucs in mid March.
During the season I did split, and combine etc as the case may or may not have been needed. 

By fall I had what I thought were 4 strong hives. All of my reading etc got me ready for summer, but I had no idea what fall would bring. And boy did it bring it. I lost one hive and went in to winter with 3 hives, two of which were strong. I came out of winter with 2 strong and one not so strong. My week hive was not the one I thought would be week. Had I not done the splits I would not have any workable hives this spring. My two strong hives were both splits, and my week and lost hive were the mother hives.

I guess what I'm getting at is yes I think a hobbyist can be successful, yes they, need to start off with more than 1 hive and they need to read, talk, dream bees so that they know how to combine when there is an emergency and no queen available, or to split when a great queen is available.
Roll up your sleeves and get comfortable with the hives - or roll down your sleeves and get more comfortable.

Doreen


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I know some hobbyist who lost bees and some who didn't. I don't think you can really determine the cause of each individual hive loss unless there was a thorough investigation. I do agree that beginners should be told there's no guarantee their $100 VSH package or their $150 nuc with all the bells and whistles will survive. 

The problem I see is that some beginners don't take the initiative to learn and investigate on their own. They depend solely on information they get at bee meetings or by a single mentor. There is no reason to stay on the "treadmill" of buying packages and nucs after your first year. Last year I bought two packages and then learned about swarm lures. This year I have 17 hives, 15 of those are swarms. 

I had no idea what I was doing but I took the initiative and studied every website and Youtube video I thought was useful and learned on my own. I'm amazed when I talk to 2nd and 3rd year beekeepers who complain about buying yet another package this year but have never heard of a swarm lure.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

All things being equal, I think that more hives would equate to more losses at the same percentages. The loss problem is not related to numbers but some other factor. 

Controlling mites with whatever approach you take I think is at the top of the list in reducing losses. So many problems can be traced directly back to damage from heavy mite loads. Next, is making sure they have plenty of stores, both pollen and honey, to overwinter properly. If a new beekeeper does this, and has decent stock, there is no reason to not expect success. 

Buying local bees does not always necessarily mean you are getting good stock. Make sure your queens are from reputable local breeders with a history of producing resilient bees which over winter well in your area. 

Some amount of loss can be attributed to the new beekeeper learning curve, it's just part of the learning process. Losses from beekeeper mistakes, like rolling a queen in September, will diminish as time goes by and inspection skills are improved. We have a lot of successful new beekeepers in our area. Neglect and misinformation seem to be the major reasons for newbee losses.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

I honestly think anyone can be successful at what ever they pursue, as long as they do the ground work first. I did a lot of research, reading, question asking and so on so I could learn as much as I could in a short amount of time..........to get me by. Then by pestering the heck out of my first hive last year I learned a lot more from a hands on point of view. If something didnt seem right, I made a phone call to Dan (KQ6AR) and he was more than helpful to answer any questions and make suggestions, and he is a local beekeeper which is also important to the new beekeeper.

I took a hive over to a gentlemans house not far from mine because he wanted his cherries pollinated, after arriving I seen some empty hives sitting by his orchard, I asked him about them and he stated that he had bees for a couple years but they always swarmed and finally died out (I am assuming from Varroa). In talking to him and his neighbor (who also had a hive at one time) they didnt have much knowledge on bees at all, infact, they didnt know what a drone was. I gave them a bunch of information in a little time (including protective clothing to be more comfotable around the hives) and they now both want to buy a total of 3 nucs off me! They are also not interested in expanding so I am sure I can pull some splits off their hives to prevent swarming for them.

The answer to your question if a hobbyist can be successful: YES! But knowledge is the key!!


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

Success to me is making some honey for my friends and business clients. If I lose a swarm or two or three, I don't care. I have three hives that over wintered. They are my first three hives. I have three additional nucs coming. Do I think I can make a hundred pounds of honey per year and keep most of my hives alive? Yes. Will that make me successful by my standards? Yes.


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

Mike Gillmore said:


> All things being equal, I think that more hives would equate to more losses at the same percentages. The loss problem is not related to numbers but some other factor.


I don't think that's really the case. If you treat each hive as a binomial probability problem, then the more hives you have the more likely you are to come out of a winter with bees. If we measure success as having at least half your hives after winter, at a 30% chance of loss, if you have 4 hives, you have a >9% chance of losing more than half. If you have 20 hives, your chance of losing more than half is less than 2%.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

saltyoldman said:


> Can a hobbyist be successful? Can the hobbyist ever get off of the treadmill of buying packages and nucs….or is it forever his rock to push up the hill?
> 
> Thoughts?



I suppose that depends on how you define success. Im going into my 4th spring with bees. Ive lost at least one hive each winter. Ive always done at least 2, so it always left me with one hive to make a split from, and catch the occasional swarm. 

First year i didnt collect any honey. Second year i got 20lbs, from one of my 2 hives. Last fall i took a combined 40 from 3 hives This year I hope to take 80 from perhaps as many as 5. 

Does it mean i havnt had my share of losses along the way? No. 
Has it ment that every loss has taught me something, yes.

The biggest problem i see most hobbyiest faceing (which i did for the first 2 years) is lack of wooden ware to expand when needed. I was finally able to buy a bunch of used supers from CL which really enabled me to expand my bee keeping to be more successful. But without such a layout of $$ it can be difficult to do it on just the minimum that hobbiest usually work with.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

schmism said:


> I suppose that depends on how you define success. Im going into my 4th spring with bees. Ive lost at least one hive each winter. Ive always done at least 2, so it always left me with one hive to make a split from, and catch the occasional swarm..


It all depends on what you classify success. You are farming. You will have good years and bad years. Now I am trying to do it commercially/hobby. My day job keeps getting in the way of my hobby. I loose 20-30% every winter for all sorts of reasons. when you only have 2 and loose 1 that is 50% but, a bad scale. I have 100 and if 70 make it through the winter I count that as a fair winter. If 80+ then it is a great winter. I took 80 hives to FireWeed last year cost me 1600 bucks in permits and got 30 boxes of honey. Not a good return on investment but, keep the rest fed. It all depends on what you want to get out of it and how much you want to put in.

I sink 15k at least into it each year tax write off against my day job and save $3500 in property taxes because I am now zoned as farm. You need to be creative to get more out of it.

I need to get a forklift and a truck that is going to be 50k into it this year plus 72 nuc's and 100 packages. So this year is going to be costly but, I hope to make Almonds next year. If you want a guaranteed income from bee's buy some lottery tickets. It is farming and the process is the fun part for me. I am working on them a min of 2 hours every day, every day. Between painting and building more equipment tending them is the smallest part. I consider my project a success for me. If you count the pennies then nope. Might as well get a boat and have a hole in the water I throw money in.


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## catfishbill (Jul 18, 2008)

I'm a hobbist and started off by listening and reading.decided to buy couple of boxes,then make all my own stuff except frames.worked out good for first year ended up only wanting to start with 2 hives,but ended up with 10 first year.alot of swarms in my area that year.I was in way over my head.made 20 gal of honey first year,I thought i was on my way to sucess.then winter came,50% loss.I thought what did I do wrong?I did not prepare correctly is what is did wrong.hive management is the key,in my opion,wether you have 2 or 10 hives.Also if you can get mentor in your area it is very helpful.Good luck. Bill


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

The title of this thread, "Can a hobbyist be successful?". I suppose it all depends on your definition of "successful". It's fairly easy to succeed at destroying honey bee colonies. It can also be easy to raise queens and multiply colonies.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Well it would certainly help if two people would give the same advice! I have been obsessed with this for the last two years, read one book a month from the library, read the posts every day, missed only one bee meeting at one club and attended some at another area. I did a cut out, gave a hive away, did a winter nuc. Built stacks of equipment. This last weekend I had a flying day and one hive not flying. Opened it up and it has a small cluster but most looked dead. Those that are not dead were moving pretty slow. I figure it is also a loss. Even with my high energy level my OCD is running on low. I built four more Coates nucs. One more try for catching swarms, then I think I am also done. Had two hives robbed out, now this one on its last legs. Candy board on it, treated going into fall and SBB open. Follow the prescription and still loose.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I define success for a hobbyist as: If you are still caring for bees and you enjoy it then you are successful. If you have one hive and had to buy bees or a queen every year you are still successful if it gives you what you want. Where I think most hobbyist fail is when they get the bright idea of being a sideliner and then it becomes work and an investment not so much fun where they started. I don't see the need for competition to keep bees.


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## johnblagg (May 15, 2011)

HMM Im a Hobby keeper so far started with a caught swarm last spring ...made splits off it all summer to get up to three hives,all three survived great and now I have made spilts already this year and am up to 6 hives plus a natural exposed comb hive cut out of a tree late in fall that made it as well so actually 7 hives already and going strong ..I expect some losses in time but Im working with survivor stock I capture ....

Also have one hive at a friends we caught 3 years ago doing great never treated in any way and going strong as well,so yes you can be sucessfull


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

20+ years and 800+ hives a year. This out of control hobby is paid off. Now it's time to make some $$$. Every year brings new things and you learn some and you lose some. Always looking to run the hive for max. $$$. 
Define successful. I thought hobbies was just for funny (just something to do).:scratch:


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I started 4 years ago with one package, I haven't bought bees or caught swarms - except one swarm from my own hive, and a few queens in the interest of genetic diversity, I've built all of my equipment - mostly from recycled wood. I've increaed to 20 hives this spring, and harvested over 300 lbs of honey last year. If you want to be successful I think you have to make increase early and often until you get to a sustainable point, and then you have to raise replacements every year.

I would rather go into winter with 2 small hives than 1 big one - it has been my (limited) experience that they are about as likely to survive. And at least twice as likely for you to still have bees come spring.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Several others have pointed out the question of what is "successful." I don't really have an answer, as I'm sure it's personal to everyone. To some it might be unquantifiable (relaxing, rewarding, educational), to others it might be financial (success is not having to spend $$$ on them, or breaking even, or recouping an investment), and some it might just be having them (if you lose them all, you were not successful).

But I would like to make one thing clear on what I DO NOT think "successful" is . . . and that's the number of colonies you have. I see a whole bunch of people here saying "I'm successful" and then explain how many hives they have, or how they grew. The two are not the same thing, at least in my book. If I found a commercial beekeeper that was operating 500 hives and compared him to another commercial beekeeper who was operating 1500 hives, there is no way that I could say the 1500 hive beekeeper was ANY BIT more successful than the 500 hive beekeeper. The 1500 hive beekeeper might have greater chance for profit, but they likely have larger overhead. They might own three times the hives and therefore have three times the inventory to sell, if needed, but it counts nothing to the business, as having them doesn't make a realizable gain. It's very possible that the 1500 hive person is running his business in the red, burning the midnight oil just to keep up with them, estranged from his family, on the verge of a breakdown, and hating life while the 500 beekeeper isn't. 

Numbers don't matter. Just my two cents.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Specialkayme said:


> But I would like to make one thing clear on what I DO NOT think "successful" is . . . and that's the number of colonies you have. I see a whole bunch of people here saying "I'm successful" and then explain how many hives they have, or how they grew.
> .


I happen to agree with the general theme of your post but I am not sure I have ever heard the "I know more than you because I have more hives than you" line of thought. If you are referring to those who make the argument that more experience is better than less well then that is entirely different but experience and hive numbers are two entirely different things.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> I am not sure I have ever heard the "I know more than you because I have more hives than you" line of thought.


Neither have I.

I never said anyone was making a correlation between hive numbers and experience or knowledge. I said some are making a correlation between success and hive numbers.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

The question is Can a Hobbyist be Successful? Asked with a note of despair it seems. So, is it somehow a wrong answer to say I feel like I'm a successful hobbyist? The intent was that if I can do it so can you. 

I'll be the first to say that I have much to learn. A guy I know produces close to 1000 lb of honey with 6 hives year after year. Now that's a successful hobbyist.


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## Matt Gwinn (Mar 9, 2012)

Perhaps a better title to the thread would have been "Can a hobbyist be self-sustaining" rather than "successful". (I guess I'm taking a whack at defining what successful means to me).

If I read him right he's asking what I, as a first year beek am wondering: "Am I going to have to spend $100/hive every year to have bees and get a few pounds of honey for me and my friends?" 

How many hives does a hobbyist need to build up to so that he can manage his hives through splits/swarms/etc. especially in a northern climate without having to replace his stock every year?


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

For me success is better described as a chagrin. Here in SE PA our flow is short and summer dearth is long. Up until last winter, I've lost few hives, but weather the past several years has been tough, late blooms, lots of rain, etc. Over near a decade I've gone from a single hive to five with a couple given away and a few failed top bar efforts back down to one last year. Between swarms, splits and other learning experiences, I've harvested enough for me and friends, but I'm spending more than the cost of "au natural" honey from snooty stores.

The chagrin or success is the benefit my hives provide our suburban neighborhood. My girls are all over the neighborhood's gardens, flower beds and blooming trees. That makes the work and cost/loss worth it and keeps me at it. The harvest does taste good and stories entertain all in a politically correct way.

As far as calling us hobbyists, I believe the colloquial is more accurately moving toward small scale beekeeper. Hobbyists do it for the fun. Our neighbors benefit far more from us than the fun we enjoy.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

I consider myself a hobbiest. I currently have `17 hives. Started with 2 purchased hives in October 3 years ago. Have not bought bees since then. I have raised queens (grafted), done walk away splits, swarm collections, cutouts. Harvested 120 pounds of honey that first year. Had 18 hives going into fall last year and harvested 750 pounds of honey. Lost over half my hives this winter due to lack of treatment for varroa. Came out of winter this year with 8 hives. Have split my existing hives and collected a swarm and a cutout to increase to the 17 I am currently at. 

I consider myself pretty successful as hobbies go. I read extensively prior to starting, but 2 days of hands on is worth 2 months of reading...


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## Risky Beesness (Dec 29, 2010)

Those of us who chose to start beekeeping last year in Texas, I think have pretty modest goals about success. Once it was determined that we were in a historical drought and heat wave, I think it was all about survival. Maybe we are better for it. Of course this is much easier to swallow if you are zero dependant on beekeeping as an income. Personally, I never had expectations of collecting any honey the 1st year, and the drought sealed the deal.

I trapped 1 swarm (very exciting) and installed 4 nucs. I have not treated or checked for mites. All 5 have survived the mild winter and have came out strong. To me, I consider my 1st year to have been a success, but the learning curve is still at the bottom.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

As we've seen, different people define success differently. That's ok. I have a new beekeeper who approached me with questions, and I'm trying to help him learn. I told him his first task is to get his bees thru the first winter. Don't expect anything, except live bees in the second year. If he had approached me before he got his hive, I'd have told him to wait a year, spend this first year reading and studying, deciding what he wanted to do, the kind of bees he wanted to have, etc etc etc. THEN order equipment, and int he fall order his bees for spring delivery. But he didn't do that, jumped right in, called me. Which is fine, that's how most of us start, and how I did. 

Some things are beyond our control, but for the first year, without knowledge, it's a crap-shoot. With knowledge, one has a chance. And yes, two hives to start with are better than one. 10 I think is a bit expensive and overwhelming. Plus the expenses of mistakes with one or two are not as high as with 10 or so hives. To start with. fwiw.
Regards,
Steven


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Numbers don't mean anything. My Dad ran around 1500 hives back in the days, and his largest crop was 72 ton. I run the bees differently from my Dad. 2 years ago I ran 800+ hive for 81 ton. I run my whole operation from packages and split from packages for my crop. Big overhead?? Depends on what is big to you. $85-$100 a hive. 7 year avg. of 127 per hive @ $2.00-2.25 a lb. That only makes me $155-185 a hive. This is my hobby and life. Just like any hobbiest you enjoy what you do and you learn as you go. Do I know everthing. NO!! Beekeeping (honey producation) is different each year. If you don't put bees in the boxes, your not going to have a chance in making anything. 

Just like framing if you don't put the seed in the ground, your not going to have a chance at a crop.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

SteveG has stated the priorities correctly, knowledge, then bees. Unfortunately, the knowledge needed for success(however you define it), has changed with the advent of the Varoa mite and vectored pathogens. Things are allot more complicated now, and some of the knowledge needed may require a solid foundation in other studies that are not directly related, just to understand the dynamics at play. The hobbiest with pre-existing knowledge, in a related field, and the proper mindset, may have a much better chance of success than those in a field that has little relevance to beekeeping.

The best of luck to all, remember if you cannot improve your results, lower your expectations.

Crazy Roland


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What is the average number of hives of those hobbyist? 

Anywhere from 2 to 7 or more.

>Is someone with just a couple of hives apt to have long term success in Maine? 

As others have pointed out, that depends on your definition. If you only have one hive can you be self sufficient? No. With two hives? Better odds. Four hives? Double the odds...


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## buzz abbott (Mar 6, 2012)

The law only allows me to keep 2 hives in our community (up from 0 as of 2010) and manage so as to avoid swarming. That mean for me to be successful, I have to not be successful.:s I am enjoying what I am doing, learning a ton and cutting down on my store bought honey. I have spent very little in the way of cash, a lot in the way of time.


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

I think it just depends on your expectations. I have been at this 6 yrs and started out because I wanted to produce mead to go along with my beer brewing. I found out I really dont care for mead but found I really like having a few hives around the garden and fruit trees. It gives me and my youngest boy something to do and talk about, work some wood and such. I just budget 100$ plus a queen, for the year and stock up on a little sugar. I consider myself sucessful if I can manage 3-5 hives and do a few splits and sell some nucs here and there.
To each their own


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Seems to me the OP is defining their requirements for success. 
Success will be getting bees that survive the winter, that are not automatically treated to have a chance to survive. Having survived, can make splits to increase and not buy packages every year in order to keep bees. Something in that realm. IMHO
Purchase of bees from an area that is not reasonably close to their seasonal extremes is setting ones self up to fail IMO. Perhaps no choice but I have purchased bees from Tenn. and I am familiar with some in NY. I sure there are more. Planning is key to securing bees from them though. IMO. there is a lot of planning that goes into "successful" bee keeping.
One can be successful with one hive if one has a "Net". I mentor a friend that has one have. This is her second year. She got her bees from me and I am the "Net". She is getting ready to make her first split and manage a second hive. 
I went to my first Bee Association meeting Sat. I felt really bad for the New Beeks and some of the info they were and were not getting. Treatment for mites was a topic. No discussion of mite counts, how to do one, or numbers that warrant treatment if you choose. There was no choice. Treat before the Honey flow. I "fessed" up I did not treat for mites. Someone in the audience shouted, "You're crazy." I went home and told my third year queen that is providing me with another boomer hive what he said.  She slapped her knee, laughed, and told me to close the hive, she had eggs to lay 
JMHO, New beeks,,,,,, look for a mentor that has the same idea of what successful bee keeping is to you, how you want to keep bees. Don't have them define it for you.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

Matt Gwinn said:


> Perhaps a better title to the thread would have been "Can a hobbyist be self-sustaining" rather than "successful".
> 
> 
> How many hives does a hobbyist need to build up to so that he can manage his hives through splits/swarms/etc. especially in a northern climate without having to replace his stock every year?


This is my understanding of the OP.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> As others have pointed out, that depends on your definition. If you only have one hive can you be self sufficient? No. With two hives? Better odds. Four hives? Double the odds...


Thank you. This gets to where I wanted to go. It also confirms what I was thinking.


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## cinch123 (Jan 16, 2012)

As someone who is beginning this spring with two packages (3 more weeks!) I can tell you that I will measure success by my ability to sustain this as a hobby without buying packages every year, and to eventually be producing enough honey for my family and neighbors. Around here it seems like the key to doing that is good management, and having enough colonies going into Winter that you can lose half or more and make it through with something to start with again the next year. That's why I'm putting up swarm traps, learning about making splits and getting to know all the folks in my local bee club.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

throrope said:


> Hobbyists do it for the fun.


I agree and it seems to me that this is where people have their own idea of what a hobbyist is.



> "Am I going to have to spend $100/hive every year to have bees and get a few pounds of honey for me and my friends?"


And if you did it would be a wash. Those few pounds of honey would likely be worth more than $100. Bees that die leave all their honey. They can't die and eat the honey too. If you get bees from a reputable source you have to do something wrong (in most cases) in order not to get more from the colony then what you spent on the bees. The equipment is a one time expense. Every "hobby" has a start up cost. Heck if you sew you might blow 300-400 on a sewing machine and it doesn't stop there just to get started.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

Acebird said:


> .
> Bees that die leave all their honey. They can't die and eat the honey too.


But they can eat the honey then die.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Hasn't been my experience.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

I fish and tie a few flies. I have participated in shooting sports and reloaded my own ammo for several decades. Neither of these hobbies ever made any money, but it seems in beekeeping that the words hobbyist and revenue are often times connected. I have never had a hobby that paid its way. I realize some people do make money from hobbies, but I feel that is the exception rather than the rule. To me a hobby is something that one enjoys. It’s fun, like fishing and hiking etc. A hobby provides one with pleasurable time. Sure, I want some honey and if I am marginally successful with five hives this year or next I will probably sell some honey, but it doesn’t look like I will ever sell enough to break even on my investment. I don’t care because it’s fun and it’s my HOBBY.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

lazy shooter said:


> it doesn’t look like I will ever sell enough to break even on my investment. I don’t care because it’s fun and it’s my HOBBY.


Nothing wrong with that, but there's nothing wrong with making a profit from a hobby either - It helps keep the spouse happier about it, and it doesn't hurt my feelings either. 

But, if making a profit is not a goal then you almost certainly will not make one. It's rarely just a happy accident.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Hmmm some spouses seem to think a hobby is what keeps one out of the bars, off the streets, and out from under foot. Unless, of course, your hobby _is_ the bars or prowling the streets. :lpf:

Seriously though, sometimes we non-commercials (meaning those who don't make their living from their bees) take our beekeeping way too seriously. If we could keep our minds open, learn some things, and simply enjoy the bees, we might not stress so much about them. Of course, I can say that now, because this year I'll finally make more $$ from honey than I spend on the bees! :lpf:
Regards,
Steven


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Maybe what we need to teach new beekeepers is, treatments if that is what one choses are done in a timely manner. Doing it when damage has already occured is useless. We need to stress checking and testing and know your levels.
I also think we need to teach, if you have livestock, _and bees are livestock_, you will have dead stock. Maybe this is the thing we most need to teach to new beekeepers. Finally, we need to teach the new beekeepers and remind ourselves, that no matter what we do, whatwe figure out, if they want to die, they will find a way...even if we do the best we can. We do all we can, and then pray that it is enough. Life and death are not ours to control.


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## geebob (Apr 4, 2011)

jbeshearse said:


> I read extensively prior to starting, but 2 days of hands on is worth 2 months of reading...


:thumbsup:

Exactly! The bees are excellent teachers when I slow down enough to learn from them.

Out of all my hobbies, beekeeping is about the only one with a prayer of being a break-even proposition.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

David LaFerney said:


> but there's nothing wrong with making a profit from a hobby either


The minute you start thinking profit you lose the fun and enjoyment and then it is not a hobby anymore. I don't think I ever met a person who had a hobby and turned it into a profitable activity and kept the fun and enjoyment. It vanishes pretty quick.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Go back and read the OP thread
Can the hobbyist ever get off of the treadmill of buying packages and nucs….or is it forever his rock to push up the hill?


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

As I said earlier, I consider myself a successful hobbyist beekeeper. It's not because that I am making much income from it. I enjoy almost all aspects of beekeeping, watching the bees, building woodenware, fellowship with other keepers, talking bees anytime to anyone, staying busy, Squishing SHB. all this and it still puts more in my pocket than it takes out. 

But then ask a successful person what makes them successful and most will probably include "doing what I enjoy" as part if the formula. If you want to be truly successfull at anything the enjoyment aspect should beanimportant part. That goes for life overall also. At the end of the day if you say it was just another day at work, it is certainly not successful hobby. 

For me when it stops being overall enjoyable it will no longer be a hobby.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Rick 1456 said:


> Go back and read the OP thread
> Can the hobbyist ever get off of the treadmill of buying packages and nucs….or is it forever his rock to push up the hill?


Sure you can. I started in 2009 with 2 purchased hives (in November no less) and have not bought bees since. I have done 17 swarm collections/cutouts since then. If you just want to plop a hive in the backyard and Collect honey then you probably will never get off the treadmill. M Bush is correct the more hives you have the better the odds of not having to buy bees are. Over my brief period of beekeeping I have lost about as many hives as I currently have. Losses are a given and not necessarily a sign of failure.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Losses are a given and not necessarily a sign of failure. 


This, in IMHO , is not what is being explained to new people. My observation. But people that are not on the treadmill, are the ones to explain/educate them about it. It is not seemingly happening from this post.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Can the hobbyist ever get off of the treadmill of buying packages and nucs….or is it forever his rock to push up the hill?

Yes, I always take a few nucs into winter, in case I need them in the spring.
Start the nucs yourself as swarm control, have more then you expect to need.
If you have too many in the spring sell them, & start over. Its a lot of fun.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Yes,
But they have to get into that position/ being able to do just that. Not an easy road even with good help. JMO


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I think that even as a hobbyist there is a critical number of hives that you need to keep out of the nuc/package revolving door. I have been a hobbyist for over 20 years now. I make money selling hives (in years where winter loss is low) and selling honey. In 2011 I made $1000 selling nucs and hives and sold $3800 worth of honey. My costs, including commissions, replacing the hive wooden ware, jars, gas, etc. were $1400. I sell all of my honey at a U-pick place, so my only labor with selling is delivering the honey in jars.

I haven't bought bees for 6-7 years when I decided to increase from 4-6 hives to 10-15. Back to the original question, I think that you would need 5 hives if you always wanted to have 3 (that leaves 2 for winter loss). With nuc boxes, you can make replacements for winter losses if you use the 3 remaining hives to make up a couple of nucs for the next winter. If you want 3 hives and only keep 3 hives, I think that you will always be buying bees to make up for losses.

I range from 10 to 20 hives now. The reason for the range is that I do have some loss and I sell some. It is still a hobby because I have more fun each year and if I didn't make any money from them I wouldn't lose any sleep. I bought my last queen 4 years ago and now raise my own, although I still plan on buying queens from time to time.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

libhart said:


> I don't think that's really the case. If you treat each hive as a binomial probability problem, then the more hives you have the more likely you are to come out of a winter with bees. If we measure success as having at least half your hives after winter, at a 30% chance of loss, if you have 4 hives, you have a >9% chance of losing more than half. If you have 20 hives, your chance of losing more than half is less than 2%.


I guess I have a different non mathematical outlook on high over winter losses, I've been there myself. Has the root cause of losses been identified? It could be terrible stock, mites, poor overwintering practices on the beekeepers part, management errors,....etc. 

My thoughts are that whether a new beekeeper has 4 colonies or 10, if losses are directly related to some of the items above or lack of training and management skills, those losses will still be high. Yes, there will be more stock to work with the following spring if you have 10 colonies, but loss percentage might be the same. Some losses occur naturally even if the beekeeper does everything right. That's where I think improved mathematical probabilities may come into play with higher colony numbers. 

If a new beekeeper is experiencing 50-75% losses then they should do some research and figure out the root cause and make corrections. Simply adding additional colonies may not solve the problem. The end result could be that they are still held captive on the package treadmill, or they are forced to do so much splitting each spring that they never really reap the rewards that are expected from overwintered colonies.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Rick 1456 said:


> Can the hobbyist ever get off of the treadmill of buying packages and nucs….or is it forever his rock to push up the hill?


That is my definition of success. Sustaining my hives w/o purchasing queens, nucs, or packages year after year. I have enough equipment for 5 hives and have run as many as 4 in the summer (never got all 5 going at once) down to as little as 1 after winter loses. I started out with two nucs and have relied on splits and swarms completely since then.

It is often brought up how many hive a newbee should dtart out with and I am quickly coming to the conclusion that 1 is just about impossible and 2 isnt even nearly enough. Just how many? I dont know. 3 or 4 works for me. 5 or 6 would be the maximum that I would strive for. 




Acebird said:


> The minute you start thinking profit you lose the fun and enjoyment and then it is not a hobby anymore. I don't think I ever met a person who had a hobby and turned it into a profitable activity and kept the fun and enjoyment. It vanishes pretty quick.


As usual complete and utter nonsense from the Bird. I try to make a profit (or more properly recoup some of my expenses) and it only enhances the enjoymant of the hobby. I sold over 60 pounds of honey last fall and was completely enthralled. I was really jazzed when my co-workers kept asking for more honey and I had to tell them to wait for next year. Their excitement and anticipation for next fall's harvest matches mine. I just hope I live up to expectations and get a good harvest (and make more profit).


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

saltyoldman said:


> snip
> Can the hobbyist ever get off of the treadmill of buying packages and nucs….or is it forever his rock to push up the hill?


I have ONLY purchased queens for a few years now. I had decided that if I wanted 3 hives in the spring, I should have 6 or 8 going into the winter. This year 7 of 8 have made it so far...

Six of the eight were in double (or triple) 5-frame medium nuc hives.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

I don't see buying the occasional queen as a failure in being a hobbyist or sideliner or commercial for that matter. I am in what I think is my tenth year of beekeeping and haven't bought packages or nucs for at least 6 years. I make increases from my best hives, add to my stock with swarms and cut outs. Yep some of those swarms and cutouts are just normal bees that just escaped another beekeeper recently, but some may have been surviving for a while. When they get no treatment here the cream will rise to the top. Out of 8 hives I lost 1 hive and it was due to stupidity, I had robbed them in july and left everything else for them. Well there was no everything else and by the time I realized it and was going to feed them we had our one cold week back in November and bam gone. I don't see the massive losses people see, and I rarely treat with anything, definitely no apistan or checkmite or antibiotics. Have I found "the fountain of youth" of beekeeping, probably not but it works for me and causes me much confusion over other peoples large losses.

Rod

Oh yeah, so in answer to the question, You bet a hobby beekeeper can be successful, how ever you define it. I don't add packages or nucs, and my hobby pays for it's self. Probably if I had kept records going back to the beginning I am at an overall profit.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I raise a few nucs for sale but I consider myself a hobbyist and over the last three winters I have not lost a field colony. The average loss the years I did lose colonies was 1 out of each 12 colonies overwintered and the losses were usually queen failure. 

Our winters are mild compared to the northern states so southern beekeepers that keep losing colonies in large numbers should pay attention to basic beekeeping practices, good queens whose offspring show vsh traits, well provisioned food chambers, adult bee populations in September that cover at least 8 frames and colonies in full sun.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I raise a few nucs for sale but I consider myself a hobbyist and over the last three winters I have not lost a field colony. The average loss the years I did lose colonies was 1 out of each 12 colonies overwintered and the losses were usually queen failure. 

Our winters are mild compared to the northern states so southern beekeepers that keep losing colonies in large numbers should pay attention to basic beekeeping practices, good queens whose offspring show vsh traits, well provisioned food chambers, adult bee populations in September that cover at least 8 frames and colonies in full sun.


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