# Foam Board Insulation



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Nonfoil, but bees will chew the foam board, so you may want to have a thin sheet of plywood under the foam board to protect it from the bees.

Thermal gain by leaving one side exposed? Maybe beneficial. But seems like what is gained by doing so would be lost, so I'm thinking, wrap the whole thing. Though the folks I know who wrap, do so w/ tarp paper and not insulation board. And their hives thrive. They are considerably north of you too. Mike Palmer comes to mind.

How were you planning on holding the board to the outside of the hive? Nails? Or what?


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

This thread has sparked my interest as I was planning to place foam board on my hive as well and I will be using the 1/2 inch foil backed type as it is more durable and will last for many seasons. My plans are to tie it on with a cord or string so that it will be easily removed in the spring without damage, and the top piece will be placed under the top cover. After the foam board is installed I have considered wrapping the foam with tar paper as well to absorb the winter sun on sunny days, this should keep them just warm enough to prevent starvation yet not so warm as to cause an over activity problem or condensation which I will monitor through a plexi-glas inner cover. This is the first year that I will be trying this so I will be monitoring the internal hive temperature at all times for the optimal 40 to 45 degree temperature. If things get a little out of whack then I can adjust my methods at that time. A good many bees were lost in the northern states last year due to the hives internal temperatures becoming so cold that the bees could not move to the stores that was right beside them, and so they starved, my aim is to try and find a way to prevent this and keep them moving from frame to frame, so I will be experimenting accordingly. I would imagine that there are people who are ready to scoff at my efforts but to them I would say that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results, necessity is the mother of invention and I am ready to try something different.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

WWW said:


> My plans are to tie it on with a cord or string so that it will be easily removed in the spring without damage, and the top piece will be placed under the top cover.


Be sure to leave ventilation at the top. If the rigid insulation actually seals against an interior portion of the hive I would be concerned with propolis and the possibility of tearing the rigid foam when trying to remove/inspect... Seems something like large bubblewrap might be something to consider...pick up some at a UPS store or office supply store....wrap the hives and cover with tar paper.

Seems you might could use some rare earth magnets to hold the rigid insulation in place so you can secure it with some cord.

Whether more insulation than a tar paper wrap is needed I don't know. It sounds like other beeks up your way do "ok" with simply wrapping their hives. If you have only a few hives and you want to pamper them (nothing wrong with that!) go for it!.....just be sure to leave adequate ventilation.

Ed


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Ed, I have given much consideration to the top of the hive and the propolis will not be a problem as I am going to place s shallow super over top of a screen board and the super will be filled with cedar chips, then the inner cover will be on the top of the super where I can check for condensation, the super will have a 5/8 hole in the front to vent any moisture should it be present. The chips will absorb a lot of moisture as well as being a mite deterrent, and should slow down the heat loss through the vent hole. Thanks for your positive response and as I have only the one hive I do pamper them a good bit LOL.....Bill


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

If you are putting a box of cedar chips on top of the hive, why bother with foam board? You have all the insulation you need, plus excellent water vapor control. I'm planning on making a "warre condenser" for my hive -- a shallow box a couple inches deep filled with planer shavings -- for insulation and water control. I have a plastic top cover, and it's already dripping water off the sides.

If those are landscaping size chips, you should probably see if you can find some coarse sawdust (lumber mill, not table saw) or planer chips -- gotta be an amateur woodworker around with an endless supply! Coarse sawdust/shavings will allow slow air movement, hold water so you don't get condensation dripping in the hive, and supply considerable insulation.

Winters here are usually quite mild (70F on Xmas day is common), but we do get abrupt cold snaps where the temps can dip to 0F and I don't want condensation problems. You have bitter cold for quite awhile.

Peter


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## beeherder (Aug 7, 2011)

Ever see the 'wall of water' thing for gardening that is shaped like a teepee with vertical cells that you fill with water that freeze at night and supposedly keep the frost off the plants inside and I assume hold a little heat inside, but probably just keep the frost off.
It is supposed to act kinda as a small greenhouse type setup as the sun comes up and the light penetrates the frozen water, so it warms the inside of 'teepee' area, and thus the plants get some warmth, and it's done using frozen water. Wonder if this could be incorporated... and maybe I'm giving up a really good idea there... Maybe this idea with a heatsink under your hives of good stone might help, but my concern in a cold climate like yours would be that the bees may break up a cluster on a warmer day and thinking it's warmer outside and get hit with a cold blast and hurting them, but I don't know with the little experience I have at this stuff.


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

I was going just to gorilla tape the pieces together creating a box. Leaving enough space for ventilation.

My plan was to use non-foil insulation for the outsides but they dont come in 4x8 sheets like foil backed does. The pink stuff is 2x8....I was considering painting it black to help with solar gain.

I have 13 hives in two yards and 5 of which are in a high wind area and this was the easiest way I could provide a wind break without moving the hive and it give the added value of insulation to lessen the winter stress on the bees.


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## Ray4852 (May 27, 2011)

Brushy mountain makes a nice winter cover. I use this board with insulation.

http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/10-Frm-Wintering-Inner-Cover/productinfo/W671/

http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/10-Frame-Insulation-for-Wintering-Cover/productinfo/W670/

This year I'm going to use this stuff to wrap my hives.

http://www.bbhoneyfarms.com/store/c-58-beehive-winter-packing


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Peter, I have never used cedar chips before So I am open as to what is needed, That is why I will keep a thermometer on the front side of the hive with a probe going into the inside. I will be able to experiment and change things when they prove to not be working while looking for that magic temperature of 40 to 45 degrees. 
Beeherder, I have no idea what you are describing with the wall of water thing, but if you can devise a new form of winter beekeeping then this could be your ticket to retirement. And don't be worried I will not let the bees get overheated, I am just looking to help them a little, and If it looks like I will be going to far then I can change methods in the blink of an eye, if nothing else I am flexible.....Bill


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Thanks Ray, I will take a long look hard at your links, the solutions that I am looking for may already be right under my nose...Bill


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## beeherder (Aug 7, 2011)

Here's a link to see the item I was talking about. Not sure that it would work throughout the winter, but it's an idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qqbX1eGnSE
I would imagine if the north cells of this thing had black dye added then it may heat better. 
Sounds like you don't want to go to too much trouble, but I thought I'd throw it out there as food for thought.
They make sheets of unfoiled styrofoam for the stucco industry, which is big out here in the desert. Not sure how big it is there. Maybe check masonry supply for sheets of nonfoiled styro


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WWW said:


> After the foam board is installed I have considered wrapping the foam with tar paper as well to absorb the winter sun on sunny days, this should keep them just warm enough to prevent starvation yet not so warm as to cause an over activity problem or condensation which I will monitor through a plexi-glas inner cover. I will be monitoring the internal hive temperature at all times for the optimal 40 to 45 degree temperature.


Won't the foam board counteraxct any thermal gain from the tar paper? Keeping heat out as well as in?

Won't you have some condensation problems w/ a plexiglass inner cover?

How will you be monitoring the 40-45 degree temp? What will you do when it isn't 40-45? Where in the hive will you take the temp from?


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

Ray4852 said:


> This year I'm going to use this stuff to wrap my hives.
> 
> http://www.bbhoneyfarms.com/store/c-58-beehive-winter-packing


Interesting. I ordered a couple too see what they are all about. I like the felt.


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## PAHunter62 (Jan 26, 2011)

I plan on making a couple of these for on top of my hives:

http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php

I'll be using wool blankets inside. I'm going to wait till spring before drilling the vent holes for the hot part of summer. 

Using insulation board seems like condensation could become an issue ... and moisture kills.

... Just another alternative.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee Hive/BeesFeb14-11005.jpg

I don’t think you need to insulate the sides of your hive in MA but you can do as you like. I use roofing material that is about 1/8 thick and screw it to the top edge using 3 sheets and leaving the front open. In the spring I can take it off and use it again next year. This year I am also going to try 2 inch foam insulation (pink or blue) on top of the cover held by a rock. My intent is to have less honey consumed. The insulation will work whether it is on the inside of the cover or the outside for heat retention. On the outside there is no concern of holding in moisture.

Good luck with your experimentation.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

beeherderI don't know If a wall of water would be beneficial in the winter time as it looks to be a summer time device, I can get two types of insulation here where I live, foil backed and blue board. 

Sqkcrk, I am not sure about the thermal gain, I know that insulation slows down heat loss and does not stop it altogether, perhaps the felt on the outside will gather enough heat to slow down the heat loss from inside the hive, this is an experiment so things could be prone to changes depending on how it unfolds.

Last year I placed a shallow super on top of the hive with a heating pad set on low inside of it, the plexiglass inner cover was on top of the super and I saw no condensation at all, but this may have been the result of the heat from the heating pad, I had to set up a nursery of sorts because I picked up this hive of bees at the start of winter with a very small cluster and no stores to speak of, I rigged up a plastic feeder box inside the super and feed them MegaBee while keeping them warm at the same time and they came through the winter in great shape and are now a strong and thriving hive. 

I use a one inch dial thermometer that has about a four or five inch probe on it to monitor the temps, you can pick these up where you find cooking supplies, or in auto parts supply stores and I shove it in between the upper and lower broodnest boxes where the probe enters between the frames. The bees will generate a certain amount of heat so my plan is to just help them not loose there heat on extremely cold nights. I don't have all the answers yet so I will be playing it by ear, and when something doesn't seam to be working out then I will try something else, my intent is not to be mothering over them constantly but to develop a way to help them help themselves. I hope this answers your questions.

Michae B, thanks so much for this info, I would be of the mind to say that with this type of wrap and the felt hive top that PAHunter62 has shown us would make for a great combination for winter hive care, the bees should be able to take care of their own needs during the winter with this combo. I think that you guys have changed my course and plans, I will abandon the Styrofoam idea in favor of these two great combination's. 

PAHunter62, that is an interesting article on felt, I do have some felt and will be adding it over top of my my cedar chips, please let me know how it works out for you, This looks to be the way to go in the future, thanks so much, this is what makes this forum worth while, the free exchange of ideas. 

Thank you all very much and all my best to you...Bill


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Thanks Acebird for the info, this is another type of wrap that I did not know existed, I will look into it shortly, nice pic of your hive and thank you for your kind response. Everyone has given me such good ideas I really appreciate it.


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

Michae B said:


> I was going just to gorilla tape the pieces together creating a box. ....The pink stuff is 2x8....


The "pink stuff" I think you're talking about is Foamular. That's just XPS (extruded polystyrene). They do make 8x4 sheets of it, but it's hard to find w/o doing a special order. Good news is the Pactive foam at Lowes is also XPS, and they do sell it in 4x8 sheets w/o the foil, at least around me.

I plan to do the same exact thing this winter (foam board). I'm going to tie a cord around the hive (2 actually) and the 4 pieces of insulation instead of going w/tape. Tape of almost any kind will just get crunchy and fall apart at freezing temps unless it's rated to survive it, and most cold tape isn't made for outdoors, it's made for cold warehouse packaging, so while it survives the cold, it won't survive the rest of the weather.

I am planning on doing all 4 sides. The idea that you should leave the south side uninsulated because of daytime heat gain is a little off IMHO. True, you'll get faster heat gain in the sunny daytime hours, but you'll lose it (and in addition the heat the bees are generating) that much faster once the sun is down. If it didn't work this way, we humans would leave the south facing walls of our homes uninsulated, and we don't do that.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

The gal I got my hive from gave me a piece of owens corning pink, and a piece of foiled bubble wrap, and told me to put them on top of the telescoping cover, under the rock. Reading this thread with great interest. Kinda liked the dark roofing material idea Ace. Not up to a heating pad, although these will be nursery hives this winter, I couldn't even keep my chicken's water thawed electrically last year. Making them a backup coop under a shelf in the greenhouse I'm building. Don't think I can move the bees in there either.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I think it's a mistake to wrap a hive in insulation for winter....especially in the lower 48. Bees don't heat the inside of their houses as we do. They only heat their cluster. Think ice house. How did we used to keep our foods cold? With ice. How did we prevent the ice from melting in storage...by insulating it with saw dust. So insulating your hives is creating an ice house condition. Once the interior has cooled off, it will stay at that temperature.

Insulating the inner cover combined with an upper entrance is what they really need because it's moisture that kills bees. If you want to help further and you're, say, north of DC, then one layer of 15 lb felt paper (tar paper) is what'e called for. It absorbes heat from the sun on cold winter days and allows the bees enough movement within the hive to bring additional stores into the cluster area. It also allows for cleansing flights on a marginal day in the early spring when the conditions aren't quite warm enough. It also protects your equipment investment.

To me, the most important thing in wintering bees is the bees themselves. They have to be from stocks that have the ability to winter well. They provision their hive with honey and pollen, have a large population of young bees going into winter, and maintain a quiet cluster through the winter. I find this quiet cluster to be one of the more important aspect in wintering bees.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

libhart said:


> If it didn't work this way, we humans would leave the south facing walls of our homes uninsulated, and we don't do that.


That is not exactly true. There are many homes up here that have sun rooms on the south side of the house. The floor is masonry and the wall against the house is masonry. The masonry sucks up heat from the sun during the day and gives up heat at night. This simple construction can save 25% on your heat bills in the winter.

The coldest time in the hive will be in the morning. The sooner you can raise that temperature the better. An insulated box with no heat source is an igloo. The cluster may be able to give off enough heat to keep the temperature from dropping in the hive that is insulated but it will be at a price of consuming honey.

So the only fair test is to take two identical hives, one insulated and one not and weigh the honey to see which one consumes more through the winter. Calculations are far to complicated to predict because the bees will vary their btu output.

To be statistically accurate this experiment should be repeated about a 100 times and map the results for trends. Each climate will have their own trend.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Or one can simply listen to the voice of experience which Michael Palmer spoke so well and skip the experimentation. Unless you have money to burn. Why experiment when you have a good source of life experienced advice right there at hand?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Some people like to tinker and lean for themselves. You assume that if an individual tinkers on their own they automatically don't listen to the wiser. I can assure you that is a wrong assumption for most tinkerers.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I thought this was a Beekeepers' Forum, not a Tinkerers' Forum. My mistake. Do what you wish to. Tinker or follow sage advice. No skin off of my nose. More nucs to sell in the spring.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Well, I want top venting, but not a top entrance. (these bees know a bottom entrance, a confused bee is a dead bee in winter, and it looks like i'll have robbers until then, so dual is not an option.) 

So my screened inner board, put the owens corning pink or some Mulch? Cedar chips? over the screen, to absorb moisture and allow moisture to escape the hive, but block/slow down the winter wind?
Then my telescoping cover, with or without the pink and bubble wrap the beek gave me?


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Gypsi, I'm just curious...in your climate do you really need all of this???

Ed


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

I used 4 garage door insulated panels on my strongest hive a few years ago. I just used a couple of spare ratchet straps. They croaked! I suspect it was from a lack of thermal gain during nice sunny days, but who knows. I personally wouldn't wrap all four sides again, maybe protect 1 or 2 sides from the prevailing winds. Just my limited experience, hope it helps.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Intheswamp said:


> Gypsi, I'm just curious...in your climate do you really need all of this???
> 
> Ed


Last year we had a week of sub freezing temps - I couldn't keep the chickens water thawed, it would freeze in 15 minutes INSIDE the coop, it got down into the single digits, sub zero windchills.. I need a ventilated insulated top I am sure. I am putting insulation around the side walls of my above ground pond. I didn't lose fish, only because there weren't too many last year and the pump never quit running. The below ground ponds did fine.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

North Texas gives you the best of both worlds - or it used to. Between spring and fall at least 6 months of perfect weather. The past 18 months have been the worst of both worlds. 70 days above 100, probably 110 above 95, and last winter, while the cold was short, it was bitterly cold. 

We have climate change. Don't know if it is man made or not, but the last time we had weather extremes like these, Mt St Helens had blown its top.


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

> I find this quiet cluster to be one of the more important aspect in wintering bees.


I haven't heard this before Michael, care to elaborate? Mice, genetics?


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

WWW et. al.

Pardon my lateness for joining in on the discussion. Have been trying to learn Photobucket.com.

I have been doing in Colorado many of the things that have been discussed and speculated upon in this thread for a number of years. I go into winter with a SBB blocked on three sides with rags, a one inch wide lower doorway block, two loaded deeps, an 80% full of honey mediun, a vented on the front inner cover, a 2:1 syrup filled feed can surrounded by an empty deep filled with wood shavings, an outer cover, and a gallon bucket of sand on top for weight. The outer cover is cracked 3/8 inches on the front for additional ventilation.

The entire stack is encased in 2" rigid EPS foam which have tar paper glued on the outside on all four sides. The foam panels are secured with rachet straps. The girls have exits both high and low and the SBB is shielded from the worst winter winds. The wood shavings at the top act as both a moisture absorber and insulation from the cold. Minus 20 degrees F nights are not uncommon during the winter. I check the feed cans periodically on sunny days during the winter and add syrup when necessary.

Winter kill has been well below the national average for the past 3-4 years with this technique.

The following three photos should illustrate my approach. Hope this is helpful. 

<a href="http://s791.photobucket.com/albums/yy191/goldcamp/?action=view&current=P1000520.jpg"

Bear Creek Steve


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## ctgolfer (May 4, 2011)

Interesting thread, I have often thought of such wrappings, more for my piece of mind that I will have bees in the spring then gain of honey or stores. Then I think of bees living in trees through the winter with only one entrance etc. About when I think I am going to do more then wrap them in felt paper I give my friend in the cold reaches of Idaho a call and he reminds me that we can make wimpy bees or rugged bees. He winters all his hives with no wrap, no insulation and nothing but a inner cover and a tele cover with a screened bottom board. His hives are elevated some with blocks to counter the 4 feet of snow they get and he tries to dig out the entrances after snow storms but he has not lost a hive in years. He laughs at me with the tar paper wraps and covering up the SBB's. I think Michael Bush has it right, its more about the cluster then anything else.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Bear Creek Steve said:


> WWW et. al.
> 
> Pardon my lateness for joining in on the discussion. Have been trying to learn Photobucket.com.


http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy191/goldcamp/P1020171.jpg
just use the direct link for each photo and it is easier to get to.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Genetics. I like bees that winter in a tight, quiet cluster. Even at temperatures that aren't too cold, in the 30s say..these bees look like they are frozen in time. Not active, not moving, no noise. hey look almost dead. 

Some bees are more active in the winter, humming loudly, not so tight a cluster...even raising a bit of brood. 

The quiet, tight clusters eat less and can go longer without a cleansing flight. They lose less bees in the winter...the cluster that goes into winter is there in the spring.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mine is not a wrap per say. Last I knew wind cannot blow though 3/4 - 7/8 thick pine. The bees propolis any cracks anyway. What it does is absorb some energy from the sun whether it shines or not (we have a lot of gray skies).
The theory is if you can provide some warmth for the bees without overdoing it they will consume less honey and not starve should you have a long hard winter. I seem to recall reading somewhere that if the hive is up in the 50's the bees will consume more than in the 40's and 30's. So depending on your winter, wrapping or black coating may be beneficial or not. I am not sure you want to do it in CT. If people in your area don't do it I wouldn't either.


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Tinker or follow sage advice.


As sage as I believe Mr. Palmer to be, we as beekeepers are constantly reminded by more experienced beekeepers that what works in one area doesn't work in another, and what works for one beekeeper doesn't work for another. Advice is good as a guide, but not as gospel.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

but not as gospel.


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> They only heat their cluster.


I've heard this many, many times. Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the bees only intentionally heat their cluster? Not being perfect insulators, the inside of the hive is warmed as well.


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## Bear Creek Steve (Feb 18, 2009)

Acebird,

Thanks for mentoring me. I'll get better.

Steve


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

sticking with my vented but somehow insulated lid under the telescoping lid. We have more temp fluctuation than most parts of the country. I've done outdoor water work in 80 degree weather on Christmas eve in a T-shirt in 2005, and seen a foot of snow Christmas Eve 2009. I should be able to use liquid feed up until January. But I am going to breed tough bees that either propylis (sp) those box seams, or shiver a bit. If it gets really bad, I have duct tape.

What is a divider board by the way? Would it block a bit more wind than an empty frame if I leave a small hive in a large deep?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

libhart said:


> Advice is good as a guide, but not as gospel.


AMEN!! 

But totally discounting sage advice and just doing something w/out any real hope of succeeding is like Russian Roulette w/ more than one chamber filled. Listen to what those who know something about bees and beekeeping tell you and then decide on a plan. 

Maybe your plan is to see what you bees can take and not necassarily winter survival. I guess that's okay. They are your bees.

Alot of times I hear reactions to statements like, "That probably won't work. At least not very often or how you might think.", which come out sounding like, "Oh yeah? Just because you have been doing that for 30 years doesn't mean it's right. Maybe you should try something else."

But, hey, ya never know. Even a blind hog finds an acorn now and again.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

libhart said:


> the inside of the hive is warmed as well.


How much of the hive do you thinki that is? Cause it ain't much. And mostly above the cluster. W/in an inch to the side of a cluster it is just as cold as it is outside the hive. Believe it or don't.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> AMEN!!
> 
> "Oh yeah? Just because you have been doing that for 30 years doesn't mean it's right. Maybe you should try something else."


Think back when you were a child. You parents had the wisdom and the experience to tell you how or what was the right thing to do yet you still experimented. From birth experimentation is a way we learn. Being told the right way to do something gives you a method that works but you really are only imitating you have not yet learned.
Many science courses have labs. What for? You could read everything in books or sit through lectures. The reason is you learn in a lab. You memorize in lectures and reading books but you lean by experimenting. It is the utmost importance that a parent prevents a child from experimenting that will result in lasting harm to a child. It is not important that the child only do what the parent tells them to do. If they were to do only what the parent tells them it would be detrimental in the long run.

There is no need to get offensive because you think the student is not listening.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

You have never had kids have you?:scratch:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Think back when you were a child.
> 
> There is no need to get offensive because you think the student is not listening.


I really should know better than to reply to this. Some of y'all will understand how hard it is not to.

So, A. "When I was a child I acted and spoke like a child. When I became an adult I put away childish things." Or something like that.

B. As I have said before, do whatcha want. No skin off of my nose. If your bees die becvause you didn't learn from those w/ more experience, that just means more nucs sales for someone. Which is good for the economy.

C. You find my comments and replies offensive? Maybe you need some new glasses. Imagine how your comments seem to others. 

U started a Thread posing a question about blowing bees down back into the next top box on your hive and then you harvested honey by removing the frames and letting the bees go home. Didn't use a blower at all. What was the point?

D. How does your mentor BC react to your questions and comments? Is he a commercial beekeeper now?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Believe it or don't.


I believe it. It has been proven scientifically.

For the heat question, how many pounds of honey do the bees consume per unit time? That will give you an estimate of their rate of heat dissipation.

Insulating the top might reduce the frost or even eliminate it from forming on the inner cover. Frost is worse than condensation because on a warm day it could melt on the bees as opposed to running down the side of the hive and missing the bees.
In order for the insulation to work though there can be no ventilation holes above the inner cover or frost could still form on the inside of the inner cover. The ventilation must be below the inner cover. Then the small heat that rises from the cluster will carry the moisture out.
At least that is the way I see it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

B- They could die if they did exactly as they were told and they wouldn't know why and chances are you wouldn't know why. Either way it is better for you so I still don't understand why it upsets you. And I know it does. You are doing a great service to tell or warn people like myself what could happen if they don't follow your instructions but you shouldn't get upset if they don't.

C- No I don't. I think you are taking offence when people, not just me, think differently then you do or want to try something different then what you suggested.

"What was the point" I am always thinking. It's what I do. I wanted to get a feel for what that method was all about. Let me ask you a question. Do you ever think I will need such a method for my self with two hives? If you want to discuss this further lets do it in the other thread or PM if you like.

I can't answer D. He has such a dry sense of humor it is very hard to tell when he is kidding or being serious. I don't know where the break point between commercial and sideliner is. He is still in business if that is your question.


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## wkinne (Jul 17, 2010)

All this talk about wraping bees makeing our bees weaker, for me anyway it is not an issue, I do not raise my own queens. And my Queens are from Wilbanks in Georga while my bees and I are in Michigan. So my only concern is getting the strongest hives I can through the winter so I can do more, stronger spilts in the spring. So everyone has different needs, I do not think it makes sense for one to think their way is always best.


Wayne


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Acebird said:


> It is the utmost importance that a parent prevents a child from experimenting that will result in lasting harm to a child. It is not important that the child only do what the parent tells them to do. If they were to do only what the parent tells them it would be detrimental in the long run.


WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. I've kept quiet on many of your questionable statements in recent weeks, bird, but those statements underlined above are simply WRONG! In relation to the first sentence you are using double-speak out of both sides of your mouth...what is that quadra-speak?

Ed


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wkinne said:


> All this talk about wraping bees makeing our bees weaker, Wayne


I don't see how you determined that. And, do you live in a teepee? Does not doing so make you weaker? Maybe in some way it does. But, why are you keeping bees? To make them stronger? Or to do what it takes to get them thru the winter so they will produce another crop of honey for you?

It just seems negligent for one to let bees die because one didn't do what they could to promote the survival of their livestock. All other farmers do. Why not those who keep bees?

My way is best for me. Y'all do what you want to. Maybe that's what is best for you.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

rrussell6870 said:


> You have never had kids have you?:scratch:


They multiply?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Amen Ed!


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Funny to see someone with such terrible social disorders step up and tell the hard working american industry how they are "stuck in a rut", point a crooked finger and blast off about what all is wrong with our country, then say that children should not do what their parents tell them to... the pattern is very clear... I surely PRAY that they do not multiply... and I'm sure using the word "pray" will make the bird angry as well... yet another thing that everyone else is terribly wrong about and he has to set us straight so we can follow his "Change" tactics...


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

This isn't helpful! I don't think Beesource is the place for this.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

You're right, it doesn't help, but sometimes responding to inane comments are difficult to refrain from...

BOT....

From my mental compilation of others experiences the bottom line appears to be that proper ventilation if of vital importance. Without good ventilation condensation and wet/dead bees will happen. Insulation can magnify the condensation problem if the ventilation if poor or especially if ventilation in non-existent. With a decent vapor/wind shield around the sides, good ventilation to let out moist air, and maybe (vented) insulation in the top cover it seems the bees should be able to overwinter quiet well....they do have their own little enviro-friendly heaters to fire up....you did leave them enough fuel, didn't you?

You can do all the wrapping, insulating, piping in electric heat, etc., that you want to. But if the ventilation is inadequate you're going to have problems...some rather serious ones...bees do some heavy breathing in those clusters... 

Ed


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I agree Muskrat... it just crawls my spine to see someone intentionally reject advice from experience just because it comes from experience... does that even make sense?? And the bottom line is that it throws those that are.learning into doubt which can lead to poor decision making... I have been trying to completely ignore his presence, but it is very hard at times... I apologise.


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

It's been getting pretty chilly here at night and when you pop-the-top during the day there is already about a half cup of condensation on it. Pretty amazing.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

If you expect snow, ice, and strong cold winds to be directly effecting your hives... then yes, wrapping just makes sense to keep the cold from overly penetrating the hive bodies and chilling the brood, causing the bees to consume more food to produce the heat required to keep you from having to replace them in the spring... I have seen open swarms hanging from pole barn ceilings that were five combs wide make it through winter on two inner combs with a foot of snow, lots of wind and lots of humidity... ventilation is most important... the bees heat the brood, not the hive... the more they need to heat, the more they will consume... so wrapping the outside and leaving plenty of ventilation to reduce condensation will get them through winter more safely and without using as much stores...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

A good way to lower the condensation level is of course to time feeding so that they can process and cap all of their stores before going into winter... wet bees can not produce heat, and if there is no heat, they can not break cluster to reach food... thus they starve and freeze at the same time... cold doesn't bother the bees nearly as much as people assume... like the old saying goes, "its not so much the heat, its the humidity"... only this works in reverse of course...


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

muskratcreekhoney said:


> It's been getting pretty chilly here at night and when you pop-the-top during the day there is already about a half cup of condensation on it. Pretty amazing.


By "half cup of condensation on it.", I take it that you're speaking of on the inner cover? What type of ventilation do you have presently? Solid bottom board? What type of top venting?

Ed


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

This particular hive doesn't have an inner cover, all the condensation was on the inside of the telescoping cover. As far as ventilation;supers and hive bodies are slid back, plus normal bottom entrance. The screened bottom board is currently closed: double checking mite drop. Top venting - top cover has a shim on one side. Don't worry I will not winter them like this.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

To me that sounds too much for this time of year. If you shift the hive bodies you will have openings on both sides of the box which could be drafty. It also messes with the weather stripping the bees do before winter. A bottom entrance and a hole or notch below the cover should be all you need. That made the difference between success and failure for us. Another beek (3 year experience) tried to get us to prop the cover during the winter. He lost 4 hives out of 6 by February. I can't say he lost them because of the stick under the cover but I didn't like the idea.


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

ACEBIRD-


> A bottom entrance and a hole or notch below the cover should be all you need. That made the difference between success and failure for us.


Are you talking about overwintering? The reason I ask is because they seem to need a lot of ventilation during a nectar flow. Goldenrod is still booming. This is what happens without a ton of ventilation, in my limited experience anyway.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

muskratcreekhoney said:


> ACEBIRD-
> Are you talking about overwintering?
> View attachment 627


Unfortunately everything depends on where you are located and what your climate is. If you are having cold nights I don't think it is a good idea to prop the cover. A blistering hot muggy day in August OK yes. I also don't think it is a good idea to micro manage the hive. So if you are going to prop the cover it should be for a week or more not a day.

These are my beliefs anyway as a not so experienced beekeeper.


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