# New. Here is my experience so far. And what is this cell?



## B52EW (Jun 3, 2013)

Looks like begining of a queen. With some drone cells over on the right.


----------



## gezellig (Jun 11, 2014)

It was a queen cup or queen cell, depending on whether it had larva in it. That's the verbage used in TN at least.


----------



## jamman (May 19, 2015)

Ok, it looked similar but not the same as the "peanuts". I have been able to visit another keeper's hives, about 30 and it didn't quite match up with the peanuts in them as well as the books. But it is more of a cup, and it was empty. I knew it was some drones over to the side.

I've got to go back in today. I'm going to cut out the rest of the Lang frames and transfer to frames made for the top bar. I decided to put this up here to get some feedback as well as to chronicle the experience. I figured it wouldn't hurt. I love the comb building ability of the girls. It truly is amazing.


----------



## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

bees tend to make false queen cups all the time. Some breeds make more than others. Usually, you can look down inside and see whether or not there is larva in there. You don't really need to cut it out. Just because it's there, it won't force the bees to raise a queen. It's there "just in case" the bees need to raise a queen as a prep to swarming. I don't know why they make them. It's possible that a single bee can't smell good, so she things the queen is failing, or gets confused and thinks the hive is swarming. Either way, not a concern. If you see a larva in there, and your queen is still around, then they may be getting ready to swarm. Shouldn't happen in a first year top bar though.

Rob


----------



## jamman (May 19, 2015)

Rob,

Thank you for that explanation. That makes a lot of sense and helps me understand the girls better.


----------



## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

It is a pre made cell cup that bees keep around for whenever they might raise a queen.


----------



## jamman (May 19, 2015)

*June 2nd update*

So here is today’s update.

I was trying to care for other things, but never found the queen. New beekeeper. But I did find lots of eggs, so I know she is in there and working away. That was a relief. There is also plenty of wet brood and larvae and capped brood. It is fun watching those girls chew their way out.

So first, a question: Am I using too hot of a water in making syrup? Notice the color of the syrup. I heated water on the stove and it was very close to coiling. I put 4 cups of sugar in the jar and then added 4 cups of water and mixed. Then added another of each. I did that last night. It turned this color, so I know it was warm and almost started to caramelize.








Here is the frame that I am cutting into. Made from my top bars (which are 1-3/8’s wide, or just a hair to a 1/16th narrower), 3/8” dowel rod, and some ¾” x 3/4” stock I made. I then wrap with kite string. 








Here is the inside of my nuc after I emptied it out. 








Here are the four Langstroth frames that I cut into the frames. I decided to just cut out most of the brood and put the honey stores back. Why? They have comb already made for it. I figured I would let them draw it out and use that nuc and those frames as a sort of honey super. I may end up trying a foundationless Langstroth hive as well, at least a 5 frame nuc. We’ll see. But I put them back in that nuc with #1 going to the farthest outside. It leaves a gap between #4 and the side that abuts the TBH where the 5th frame goes. I have that frame in a copy paper box as an impromptu swarm trap. That space is where the girls built all that beautiful comb the other day. Number 1 is almost completely honey as the brood have nearly all hatched. It's heavy to grasp with 2 fingers.


























Now nuc is refilled. 








Nuc on end of TBH. 








Here are the frames that I cut into the TBH. 
























































I put a topbar sideways at the end closest to the nuc to create a space. I then put in F1, then an empty topbar, F2, empty topbar, etc, etc. I have 8 frames with some sort of comb. But after the last cut in, there are a few extra bars then a follower. With the old lumber the follower works in some spots and then others not so well. I’m not sold on them, but I thought I’d encourage the girls to stay put. And those extra bars are because I needed some more distance to get past an entrance hole. (they are all 7/8”). Since it didn’t fit so well, it is acting as a small top entrance as well. You may make out all the honey and carnage on the top of the bars. Even though we are in the flow, I put out the syrup just in case the girls are very shocked and this helps them get up and going faster in making the comb and all the necessaries.








Oh, btw, I shook all the bees into the TBH as I went, figuring if I missed the queen, I’d knock her off in there.

Let me have your thoughts. I'm brand new. Lots to learn. Let me know if I screwed something up.

Oh, and I forgot... I was sting free until today. I took off a glove to hold camera in that hand so I could take the pics of the frames. Got tagged 2x in the right pinky finger. Swelling and burning. Fun. Not so bad as to be a horrible reaction, but just not fun.


----------



## Jonesjungle (Apr 15, 2014)

*Re: June 2nd update*

Great job. I really like your rescue frames. As far as the syrup color goes, I believe it is a normal color. I only use hot tap (well) water with pure cane sugar and mine turns a very pale tint of brown too. I was thinking it had something to do with the amount of refinement "C&H" does on their white sugar. I wish it was clear. It bothers me but I don't think the bees mind.


----------



## jamman (May 19, 2015)

*June 5th update*

Thanks Jones. Glad to hear how you do it. I need to just use my hot well water as well. The frames were made on the suggestion of the fellow mentoring me. He described it and I just slapped them together.

Here is an update. I must have messed up the other day. I have over a dozen queen cells on the frames that I have in there. So, I took a frame with 5 cells or 3, I can't remember, and put it with some more brood and stores into another hive. So, I guess this was major mistake number 1 in the hive. But at least I have all the replacement cells and it is making for a new split easily.

I have a trap out going on a tree in a town and brought home a couple pounds of bees and combined them with that new split so they would have the workers. It was a mix of nurses and gatherers as I had put a brood frame and empty combs in there. I smoked everyone a bit and then dusted everybody with powdered sugar I made in a blender just minutes before. I had read somewhere it helps confuse the smell issues and helps them combine. Am I right? I put those frames in a container and brought it home and put some more empty comb in there yesterday evening. I'm going to let it set today and tomorrow I will activate the cone in the trap and no longer allow the bees to return to the tree. I've already sealed several alternate entrances. I wanted the queen, but don't have to have her now with all these cells. And I'm hoping I have her in there today, and if not, will just deal with it.

Ok, that's it. I might change my mind and go get some bees tonight and activate that cone. This is addicting! I'm loving catching these bees. Swarms must be great, but I kind of like the challenge of getting the girls out of where they don't want to leave.


----------



## jamman (May 19, 2015)

*Re: June 5th update*

*July 13 update*


Well, you sometimes just have to laugh at your own stupidity, or you'd want to slap yourself silly. 

I am making lots of mistakes, but loving the bees. I thought I'd share so other new keepers could learn from my experiences. It is said experience is the best teacher. I don't agree, but she is the harshest teacher! Please keep in mind as I share this I realize I have goofed. I am trying to learn. Been reading like crazy, still making plenty of mistakes.

Here's an update to things.

I had the nuc that I cut out and put in the TBH. I then had a good hive and decided to do a walk-away split. Evidently rooled or killed my queen in the doing. Ended up with queen cells galore. Had a mentor come over and shared some with him for a few of his hives and left behind some for the hives. Hive 2 successfully hatched and she started laying well, even though I couldn't find her for a while. Hive 1 had queen cells as well, but I don't know what happened. But ended up with laying workers in Hive 1. Started adding sealed brood and eggs to it to try and curb the LW and get a queen. As an aside, in my experience, a queenright hive has a sweet lemony smell to it, a real pleasure to be around. A LW hive stinks! It's a lemon smell, but is nasty. At least that is what I noticed here.

Ok, started asking about LW hive and how to correct it in this thread http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?314934-Queen-Cell-in-a-Laying-Worker-hive and folks tried to help me. Welllllllllll........... I didn't keep out. Interestingly, the "queen" cell I had was a drone, as they tore it down completely. Again, I am new, but it was obviously a LW hive and there was still no queen. As I had a queen right hive, I decided I was tired of limping this one along. I decided to steal back a couple of frames I had put in there to try and correct the LW because my queen was out of room to lay. I shook a frame off in the field and then put it in. Then I took another 1 or 2, can't remember, and just added them. I "figured" that the bees on those would be assimilated in with the rest of the hive. The LW hadn't filled in all the cells as of yet.

Oops.

So, I go and look in yesterday. I can't find the queen. While I hadn't been able to find her at first, I had been for the last week. She was a beauty, and laying well. Found her multiple times over a week. And I noticed yesterday things were not overwhelmingly sweet smelling. Went in today. No queen, looked high and low, several times. And....Hive 2 that was queenright stinks like my LW hive. Also of note to me, lots of my bees seem to have lengthened abdomens. Not quite queen size, but sure seems a bit longer than a number of workers and the new nurse bees.

So, I've done it again. I have killed my queen! Tell me how good you have to be to get your bees on May 22nd, have them do well, kill your queen, raise another that is doing well and kill her? Ugh.

So, not a good scenario. I took a nuc and transferred the 2 frames that were brood heavy and had been laid with eggs prior to LW intro by their idiot keeper. I then took another frame that had honey and some pollen and drone brood and eggs. I scraped down the drone and the egg cells on that one to the midrib (natural comb) and left the honey and stores. I think I found another frame as well and did similarly. Oh, also took those 2 frames to the middle of the field 80yards or so away and shook them free of bees since I didn't know what I had on them. But on the brood frames I left the bees as there has been a heavy hatch so lots of gray new bees and new larvae in the cells and lots of bee butts looking up at me as the bees work on the empty cells. My reasoning was that these might be more "loyal" or influenced by the pheremones of the brood and not as heavy on the LW.

I'm trying to use Mel's OTS method to encourage the queen cell production. I used a hive tool and found a number of eggs and newly hatched larvae and broke the cells on the lower third down to the mid rib. I did it with eggs as well as different age larvae. I'm hedging my bets since I'm still new and perhaps I'm reading ages incorrectly.

I have fresh sugar water cooling to go in a feeder in the nuc. I have a 3/8" by 3" opening at the top, using an inverted topbar as my limiter. I can open to 3/8" by 17" or close it down to 3/8" x 3/8". I'm wondering if I should close that more to prevent invaders, but it is the only opening on the hive and as such am trying to make sure they can cool efficiently.

Add to that, I've got SHB, especially in #2 that had the queen that I just killed. I have been hunting them relentlessly since I found them the other day. I will hold a frame and watch it and get everyone I see and crush it. I took the hive apart in the sun and scraped and cleaned detritus and some nooks and crannies. I killed everything I found that could be larvae. I even cut some comb out that was a bit buggered and that I chased one into. I cut the section out, crushed it, found the beetle and made sure it was dead. Found a larvae in the comb when I scraped out some drone. Cut that out and crushed it. Tried to expose everything to some direct sunlight with comb all over the place. We had 10 days of wet and way below average temps here and only now getting our heat. It didn't seem to help me out.

Ok. There it is. Now everyone knows what a bad job I've done with my bees. I've learned a lot. Wish I had learned it differently. But perhaps it will help someone else. At the same time, maybe I can get a lot of the mistakes out of the way early on and upfront and move on with less headaches. Actually, I still think (hope) I can salvage things this year. I'm going to try. I think I'm going to ask a favor of a friend and see if I can him to spare me 3 frames from his Lang deeps. If so, I'll put them in a nuc and try them with the OTS method (and see if I can shake off a number of other frames from him,  ) to get some queens going for him and me as he wants to re-expand after having to cut back for awhile.

Feel free to comment. I know some are thinking bad thoughts about me. But like I said, I'm just trying to be completely honest. I may be idealistic. I definitely am making mistakes. But I'm trying to keep honest. I figure something positive can come out of this fiasco then!

Thanks for letting me whine a little.


----------



## jamman (May 19, 2015)

*July 13 addendum, FOUND HER!*

I guess that OTS method really works, because I went out this evening to find a queen in the nuc! 

Needless to say, I am very, very happy. Chalk one up to a new guy not finding the queen. I was HOPING that she might be hiding on one of the 2 main brood frames when I put them over but with the way things go for me, I was expecting the worse.

So I went ahead and stole another frame that was full of honey and pollen and no brood and put in the nuc AFTER shaking off all bees in the field. I also gave about 48oz of 1:1. I don't know how many foragers are there with her highness.

So this begs the question, What do I do now? Should I put her back in hive #2 where she was? Or should I leave her in the nuc and try to get Hive #2 to build their own queen? I did do some OTS notching in there, but right now things were mixed up with adding frames from the LW hive.

Interestingly, hive #2 still stinks to me. The brood frames in the nuc don't, but the overall essence of #2 is not pleasant. So maybe it is or isn't the queen, maybe it is something with those SHB or leftover smell from pulling some drone brood out (was trying to get the girls to eat them so not to lose the protein).

Thanks all!


----------

