# Help with selecting the most gentle bee possible



## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Hi,
I've tried several different bees from northern CA breeders, & they have all been very gentle. Have had a few russians, several NWC, & a couple Italians. Not a bad one yet.


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## vegasvalet (Jan 10, 2011)

The most gentle bees are the dead ones  I also live in an urban area with a small yard and went through what you are going through now. After ALOT of research and talking to other beekeepers I went with the Italian Hygenic. In the end I realized that picking a certain type of bee is like trying to decide between an apple and an orange, it all boils down to preference. Good luck with your new obsession...


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

If you're expecting never to get stung, you might as well quit now.

That being said, I have used Koehnen, though it was in 2003. They were fine. Another thing to keep in mind is that before long, your queen will be superceded or swarm and her future replacements will most likely at some point be mean.

You will have to figure out how to deal with it. Be it requeening, extra smoke, or whatever, it will happen if you keep bees for long enough.


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## ChristopherA (Jul 20, 2010)

Good beginner bees are italians or carnies. Carnies can swarm, but it isnt a problem if you manage them correctly.

As for your yard, you can put up a screen a few feet away from the hive, you could use a shrub or bush even a small tree. Putting a screen between your hives and house will cause the bees to fly above you, however you will always get stragglers at your front door. My hives are a good 100 yards from my house and I have bees buzzing my windows and doors and checking things out in my garage all the time however they do not come after you, they merely fly around checking things out.

You have to remember bees are not domesticated and they will sting you, just a fact of this hobby or business. A sting or two on the foot or nose will keep the dog away from the hive, unless it is extremely stupid, my cat got a few stings and now avoids the hives. The wife will get use to them, mine did, now she sits and reads a book near the hives in the afternoon, loves the humming sound they make.


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

It's hard to classify a general breed (Italian, Carniolan, Russian, etc.) as more gentle than another because the variation within a breed can be rather significant. I've seen Italians that would just dive bomb you and others that you can work with minimal gear and smoke (See italians from Latshaw Apiaries. He had a picture of his wife holding a frame of his italians and carniolans next to her face with no suit or veil. Can't find it right now though). Same applies to russians, carniolans, etc.

So, it's probably more important to know what breeding stock or line they came from. That's one reason I stick with the New World Carniolan. They come from specific breeding stock I know has been selected for their temperament among other things. Each hive does vary but they are pretty consistently gentle. It always draws a crowd when we open up a hive at the county fair in short, no suit and without smoke.

I'm sure you can find similarly gentle lines in the other breeds as well. But be aware that each beekeepers definition of gentle can vary. My idea of gentle tends to get more restrictive every year.

-Tim


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## lighto (Jul 27, 2010)

Read up on the Cordovan . This might be the Bee's you are looking for..
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248293&highlight=cordovan+gentle


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I had some Carniolans from Koehnen that did pretty well.

I could do a complete (frame by frame) inspection and then sit about 4 ft off to the side and watch the bees without being bothered.

The majority of my bees are mostly Russian and they seem nice enough to me.

While my experience limits the suggestions I can make... I would go with the Koehnen Carnies...


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

We use Italian Cordovan at the USF bee workshops. Last year we added Buckfast and they are gentle too. Not everyone wears veils and there are new people every class. Here are a few pictures.
http://americasbeekeeper.org/Gallery.htm
www.americasbeekeeper.com/2010_Gallery.htm
http://www.americasbeekeeper.com/USFBG_2010_Gallery.htm
http://www.americasbeekeeper.org/USFBG_2011_Gallery.htm
Sandals and shorts do not seem to bother the bees either.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

I started with Italians but, between my inexperience and their poor use of winter stores they starved out. It was very disappointing. I recommend that you first choose the ability to survive your climate (over winter) as it gets expensive having to buy new bees every spring. I now have russian/carniolian hybrids from Tabers. They are easy to work. This is my first winter with surviving bees and my second year having bees. My dog and the bees have nothing to do with each other. He will come and lay right at the hive entrance when I am working the hives without any issues. My girlfriend and daughter are really nervous/not interested in beekeeping and I have managed to get them each into the suit to give me a hand. In the beginning I fully suited up every time I worked the hives. Now I just use my veil unless things get escalated. You can tell when the girls are edgy. I have been stung but for the most part due to my own mistakes. I believe people tend to "over think" about the down side of having bees, they really would rather not sting you. It is a most interesting hobby. Good luck and keep posting!


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## megank (Mar 28, 2006)

Cardovans are by far the most gentle I've seen...Of course they also are the most likely to succumb to the various maladies threating bees today


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have had gentle cordovans. I've had one hive of them that was very difficult. I've had hot and gentle versions of every race I've had or seen and that's pretty much all of them.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Caucasian is the gentlest line I have worked with (by "gentlest", I mean most reluctant to sting)... gentleness can be selected for in any strain, but many breeders have been adding more aggressive strains to their stock in order to quickly add resistances to pests and disease... this has made for some fairly aggressive bees... a good stock of Italians, Carniolans, etc, that has been selected from for a while can be just as gentle as any Caucasians, they are just the most gentle "as a breed"... but you may want to sharpen your hive tools.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I would suspect that most queenbreeders would supply you with a gentle bee if you requested that.

When I was a queenbreeder quite a lot of people in your situation requested gentle bees, and we kept a very gentle line specifically for that.

Also in your situation, gentleness can be the most important thing you'll need. Regardless of a bees other good qualities, if they are harrasing your neighbours, and your wife, your hobby might come to a sudden end. All beginners should start out with gentle as one of their main requirements.


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## kincade (Feb 3, 2011)

Wow! What a community. I can't believe how many replies there have been already. Thanks a million for all of the advice. 

Wiredforsterey: I should clarify that I'm not afraid of being stung (although I can't say I want to get stung either). But we live in a small yard with close neighbors. If I have an overly hot hive that stings and chases the neighbors every time I mow my lawn this will be an incredibly short lived hobby.

ChristopherA; GREAT idea on putting up a screen! I had thought about hardware cloth a bit but wondered if that would work. If I can keep their flight path above our heads we may be one step ahead to begin with.

Tarheit; do you think I'd be safe with the Carniolan from Olivarez or the Carniolan/Italian mix from Koehnen? I've read so many different things about whether to stick to a 'pure' stock or mixed breed that my head is spinning! Does a Kohnen Carni/Cordovan mix keep the good traits of either, or do you just end up with a dark colored Italian? If it's the latter, then the Olivarez Carnis or the Kohnen Cordovan are probably the way to go.

The Cordovan Italian do sound like one of the 'nicest' bees out there with the drawback of not being able to winter as well, resistance to mites, etc. In that context does the Carniolan/Cordovan mix help the shortcomings out while retaining a nice bee? Or is it completely up to the individual stock and a roll of the dice?

I'll check out the Caucasians as well but I don't think they'll be available to me locally. 

Thanks to all of you for the advice. This forum is an incredible resource!


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

kincade said:


> ... That, along with being in a very urban neighborhood... has driven my criteria ...in order of importance... gentleness, overwintering,... and mite resistance ...


Bees are natural beings and as such have bee natures that bees act on, in accordance with their natures. One of many natural acts bees engage in is the act of stinging. I would say this is the most infrequent natural act engaged in by bees. I cannot add anything more about bees or their natures beyond what posters #4, #12, #13, and #14 have said. 

As for your dog, well it is mostly up to him. My youngest daughter's pooch, a Sheba Inu, is what the English call "Hard." This term means he is resolute and game. These qualities are good qualities to have in a 25-pound dog bred to hunt bear. However, even when walking him on a check cord he rushes in like a fool at the sight of the first bee, and stands in front of my hives, running in circles, jumping, twisting, turning, snapping, trying to catch himself some Italian food. You can literally hear his jaws pop from 50 yards away every time he leaps after a bee. One sting however slates this hunger for things Italian, often for the next 24 hours. 

Do as I do, do not allow your dog to antagonize your bees, especially if you plan to inspect them in the next couple of days. Good reading in this regard is Mark Twain's paper concerning the natures of men, billy goats, and giant tortoises, or Twain's remarks on the diets of lions and rabbits.


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

They all swarm and they all sting. I have had gentle Italians and gentle carnies. Buy a nuc from someone that will take the time to open them up to let you see if that is what you want. Get them to open them up without smoke and pull a few frames. You will know how they are on about the second frame of a good strong 5 frame nuc. If they will not open them up without smoke you don't want his/her bees.


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## kincade (Feb 3, 2011)

Thanks to you all! I really appreciate the help.

Do any of you happen to have any bees from Olivarez? Kohnen? Just wondering how they are to deal with.


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## msapostol (Sep 6, 2008)

We got our first hive from a now defunct bee yard in N. California too. They made sure to give us a gentle hive, so yes, ask.

They were Italians and they are very gentle. I've found our hive to be very resistant to mites so far. But I also live in a temperate climate, so I agree with ccar2000 to get a hive that works well with your climate too.

Good luck!


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## Jerry Kinder (Jan 16, 2009)

I have tried keeping bees for the last 2 years. Each year I got and lost two packages of Italians. They did great in the summer and fall, but dwindled down to nothing in the winter. I tried keeping them without chemicals and both years they died out, probably due to mite infestation. Last summer I captured a nice swarm and it looks like they will make it through the winter (such as it is here in my part of California). The two types of bees (mutts vs. Italians) do behave different but not so much so as to be a problem (one is not more aggressive than the other, just different) so on that point it’s hard to recommend one over the other. My suggestion is to get a local wild hive somehow. That way they are adapted to the local conditions and pests. 

I live in the Los Angeles area and my hives are in the back yard with dogs, cats, wife, kids and neighbors. What I did to keep the bees from flying out into the yard was to point the entrance towards the back wall, standing off about 10 inches. It works great at diverting the bees up and away. It is a little harder for me to get to the entrance but not for the bees. Working the hives from behind is no problem at all. The bees in the wild build hives in any nook or cranny so pointing them at the wall is no big deal to them. And a wall in front of the hive keeps the breeze out the hive. 

Good Luck!
Jerry

<edit>
PS: I got my bees from Kohnen and they were very easy to deal with. Go with the next day delivery. When the USPS delivered my bees, half of them were dead (got replacements package the next year from Kohnen).


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## eliahu (Dec 11, 2009)

Caucasians are best choise , they are considered to be most gentle bee race in the world , i am caucasian beekeeper have 75 with Georgian mountain gray Queens.
thanks ilia


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## kincade (Feb 3, 2011)

Thanks to you all for the advice. I've decided to go with the Carnis to see how they will do; we've had a few hard winters and I hope I'm at least giving them a better chance. Hopefully they do ok in the heat of the summer.

There doesn't seem to be much difference between the Koehnen Carni/Italian mix and the Olivarez Carni as far as I can tell, so I'm just going to go with a local supplier that gets them from Olivarez. Hopefully I get a healthy queen and a good hive!


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## eliahu (Dec 11, 2009)

but they are available in my country, because i live in caucasus


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## Katharina (May 2, 2011)

Bees are like dog breeds. You can get a Rottweiler from one breeder and it is the most gentle dog ever, and you can go to another breeder and get a beast. Same applies to bee breeders. While still the same bee breed it can be a strain that is more gentle. I chose Carnolian, because I do live in the mountains with cold winters and dry summers. The climate here is actually similar to SLC. I did get mine from Koehnen and they are the most gentle ones I know. We work around them without protection and they don't seem to care a bit. I do protect my face and hands when I open the hive and pull brood frames, but that is more common sense. We have not gotten stung once yet. Just listen to them when working. You can tell then they do get irritated, and they do head butt before they start to sting. Lots of warning signs you learn as you deal with bees. I go slow and back off if they seem to be unhappy. Giving them time seems to be the best way of dealing with them. That applies to any bee breed, btw. You rush, you get stung. I have my hives very close to the house, and yet you never see them at all. The dogs and ducks get close to the hives and never get stung. My golden retriever puts his nose into the hive boxes and nothing. The only time the 3 dogs got stung was when there was a chipmunk underneath the hive and they were trying to get under. That was to much action way to close for some of the bees. Plus they tried to get underneath right in front of the entrance. 

So get yourself some Italians or Carniolans and don't worry about them stinging you or swarming. Make sure they have enough hive space inside to control swarming. My Carnies have not been an issue at all.


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## kincade (Feb 3, 2011)

Whoah, old thread revival! Thanks for all the advice. I ended up with Carniolans from OHB and they are as gentle as can be.


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## eliahu (Dec 11, 2009)

Caucasians(Georgian mountain grey) are the most gentle bees in the world with longest trunk(7.1) sometimes they can extract from red clover. their wax and propolis are unique. unfortunately you cant find them anymore in the Amerika because USA closed border to do oversea transfering. the are the most resistants against Varroa mite. this is not my opinion this is officialy confessed by entomologists. Once they were popular in the US but when border was closes a lot of American forgot Caucasians existance


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## pascopol (Apr 23, 2009)

Quest for a "gentle bee" is like a futile search for noncrowing rooster, giant quail, or quackless duck altough the latest do exist (Muscovy ducks)

If there is a potential problem with allergic family members or uneasy neighboors it is much wiser to pursue or switch to some other hobby before diseaster strikes.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

I got some NWC from a local beek and I have to say, they are extremely calm and build comb like mad!! They also know to build up their honey stores for winter as mine have a large portion of the second deep filled with capped/uncapped honey. Yesterday my 9 year old son and I did a full inspection and never had one incident of a ticked off bee. Infact, my son was even holding a frame of bees that had the queen on it and I was pointing out the workers, drones and the queen to him and they were very calm on the frame. Did I mention this was all done without smoke!! My Italians are also very calm on the frames and I can work their hive without smoke as well. The only somewhat hot hive I have is a feral hive, and its the only hive that has stung me while working it! Then again, they were queenless also, but their new queen is a daughter from my Italian hive, but the fathers are unkown.

I have seen on youtube and such where people have extremely hot hives, I do not want to experience those situations, if I do, that hive will be moved to a secluded spot and be requeened until the problem is solved. As for animals around the hives, we have chiuaua's that sun themselves on the ground right infront of the hives and have not been stung...........on the other hand, I watched the chickens foraging in the bee yard the other day and one black hen got a little to close and little to curious at the feral hive entrance and got hammered!! She was hauling chicken butt with a few bees stuck in her feathers!! Ive also watched them go after the mocking birds that sit on the corral boards picking bees off...........come to think of it, I havnt seen a mocking bird in the bee yard for a few weeks now either!!

Bee keeping is like bull riding............your gonna get hurt (stung) its just a matter of when and how bad!!


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## DUKPT (Apr 8, 2011)

Why not just spend $50.00 and get a full body bee suit?
I am a beginner and the suit & gloves were part of my initial purchase of supplies.
I can manipulate my frames all day long, and I stay fully protected.
One zipper, and one minute to throw on.
It has already paid for itself two times over.
My attic had a hornet nest, and my garage had several nests this year.
I didnt even have to gas the little suckers, I grabbed their nests and walked them
out to my back woods.


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