# What do you do when encountering african bees for a cutout?



## bkeech (Oct 1, 2013)

So I attempted my second cutout. Didn't go well this time. The bees were in the end box of a patio bench. I smoked them, then moved the box back so that the bench slide out more of the opening that was also their hive entrance. 

They went crazy. I was protected and did not get stung. But they followed me for ever and for along time.

Has anyone been in that situation? Do you go forward with the cutout or did you just kill the bees?


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## Jaseemtp (Nov 29, 2010)

I have done some removals where they bees were very aggressive. If you have started the removal and it is at some ones home, I think you should complete it. 
If this is near some ones home and you have aggravated the bees they could be a danger to the home owners


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

If you took on the job finish it. I would change my game plan and get a bee vac ASAP though. Also, even in Arizona, the bees are probably more defensive now than spring or summer.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Bkeech, Time to put your big pants on  Doing cutouts you never know how happy or unhappy the bees will be about their rescue, afterall they do not see the need of relocating. If you find out they are africanized you could requeen in the Spring, that is of course if they make it, seems kind of late for a cutout. Don't kill the bees :scratch:


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Most of the time you cannot tell whether they are African or European. That comes after watching their hive behavior. All bees defend their hive. The differences aren't as great in the US as they are elsewhere. Most of the time I can only really tell when they are really "runny" after I get them home. If you can't handle them or judge them to be a public menace - soap them down.


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

Just a note. I would avoid any cut-outs in residential areas. You are going to open up a wall in a subdivision and have all hell break loose with 20 houses within 100 ft. If it is a large hot colony you will be in trouble. It sounds like you should maybe get some more experience before tackling any serious cut-outs. Any questions just ask.


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## jredburn (Feb 25, 2012)

You had a suit on and did not get stung. Why did you quit? All bees get nasty when you destroy their home, blow foul smelly smoke in their face and take away their children and their food. 
Don't ever open a nest and walk away leaving a few thousand angry bees looking for somebody to take their revenge on.
Find a mentor and get some knowledge before you get someone hurt.
If you can't work in the heat, get out of the kitchen.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best.  I found myself in a situation a lot like the one you describe, and I was unprepared. The biggest hint was that I couldn't see much through my veil because the bees were mobbing me. Since that experience, I will not go out for any kind of takeout or even to get a swarm without a bottle of soapy water that I can easily put in a sprayer and either kill a colony or clean up those last few bees that always avoid the vacuum and insist on staying home. 

I take no pleasure in killing bees, but occasionally, I mean rarely, there is enough human and pet traffic that you must act to insure safety in the area. A good colony of bees can have a bad day when the stars align just right.

Join a local bee club. Tag along on a few cut outs (its fun). Watch JPthebeeman on youtube.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Yes, I ALWAYS have soapy water. Even for my own hives.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

About 75% of the wild bees in AZ are africanized, and are very common to find on a cut out task. I catch swarms and use swarm-lures, in AZ. Beekeeping in AZ means coping with them. I currently have some hives that were wild, and mean, showing the traits of africanized bees.. They were usurped, by other wild bees that are much milder disposition. Since usurping hives is a common africanized bee trait, do I now have nicer africanized bees? In AZ., your need will be to stay always protected, and to look out for anyone within 500 yards. You would be very upset, ( and possibly arrested) if you were to accidently harm some kids, or neighbors. Here's a good rule of thumb: If you start the bee job, finish it. I was taught that, years ago, about work in bee-yards. It seems doubly important for cutout work. The good thing, is that some of those hybrids are really good bees. Even with the attitude!


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Yes - do not fear them. Just treat them as the wild animals that they are.


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## shaggyfrog (Dec 17, 2013)

Just out of curiosity.... What would you need soapy water for? What does it do?


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Sudden death?


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

It is a bee killer. Soapy water kills them instantly.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Spraying bees with soapy water will kill them. The soapy water method is only as a last resort - if you have no alternative.


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## shaggyfrog (Dec 17, 2013)

Gotcha... Learn something new everyday. Thanks


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## mountainbeek (Oct 5, 2013)

Some people advocate spraying soapy water to kill the bees. 
I understand this is a last resort option, but do you think this could be avoided most of the time if, instead of using a smoker, one uses a propolis essential oil salve over one's gloves (if one uses gloves) and suit (if any) when extraction or cut out begins that puts the defensive colony in a super chill state?
Wouldn't this reduce the need for bees to consume their last drops of honey especially if the cut out is during winter time?

I am referring to the 2006 thread by George Fergusson called, Propolis Oil: Ephiphany, for Beekeepers?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

My opinion is that a smoker is a time-tested way to work bees, and that it is unlikely that any combination of propolis oil/essential oils is going to work better than smoke.

However, the thread regarding Propolis Oil that is linked in post #17 is a _real hoot_ to read! :thumbsup::thumbsup:  Thanks for linking it. Note that at least _some _of the posts in the Propolis thread are tongue-in-cheek.:lookout:


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Spraying bees with soapy water will kill them. The soapy water method is only as a last resort - if you have no alternative.


Graham would you know what the soap to water ratio is and what kind of soap? 
Thanks in advance. As an aside we are expecting 50 degree temps on Saturday, maybe I'll be able to see if the girls are alive or not.
Colino


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I have never had occasion to mix up a batch, but here is a link with more info:
http://citybugs.tamu.edu/factsheets/biting-stinging/bees/ent-3002/


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## Colino (May 28, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I have never had occasion to mix up a batch, but here is a link with more info:
> http://citybugs.tamu.edu/factsheets/biting-stinging/bees/ent-3002/


Thanks for the link Graham but after reading their description of how it's used I don't think I could ever use it. It seems too much like murder.
Colino


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Spraying bees with soapy water will kill them. The soapy water method is only as a last resort - if you have no alternative.


And all of you law abiding beekeepers remember, soapy water is not an approved insecticide for bees, so you are technically breaking the law using it.

OH - then I read the suggested link:

Soapy water has been approved for use to control Africanized honey bees (AHB) by the Environmental Protection agency provided that: 1) the detergent used for AHB cannot be sold as a pesticide; and 2) the treatment mixture of detergent and water cannot be used on edible food and feed commodities.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

I suggest aromatherapy candles and chocolates. 

Don't kill them.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I had a large hive acting as if it had gotten africanized a couple years ago. For me in a residential neighborhood soapy water is one of my first considerations, not my last choice.
Africanized or not it doesn't mater if its overly aggressive & you want to keep it move it to the country.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

We were called in by a beekeeper to help with a very, very aggressive hive in a very urban area...in a courtard in the middle of residential buildings with kids playing within a few feet...these bees were overcrowded in their hive, and the mere opening of the hive (with smoke) by the beekeeper almost got her dog stung to death on the other side of the yard (dog had to go to doggie hospital and it was touch and go...not just a stung up dog).

In this case, as they were in a hive (not a wall), the thing I could do most easily and with least impact on the location wasn't to soap the bees down (certainly you would expect some bees to be flying...even if you got all but 1 or 2). The best thing to do was wait until dusk, smoke the porch sitters in, tape up the entrance and move the whole hive. This was the kind of situation where I wished I had one of those net/bags that can cover the whole hive in case of leaks.

These were (I think) AMM and not AHB, but they were nasty little things.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

I have seen Silvex that is used for wildland fire fighting (foam) used at 0.5% from a fire hose work with extreme effectiveness. But it had some volume moving as well.

What about ammonium nitrate mixed in the smoker? - I read somewhere that it will knock them out for about 15 to 20 minutes. They mixed it in the smoker and I think it said it makes laughing gas. 

Anyone tried that. A small container in my beekeeper kit would be nice to keep. I hate containers of liquid soap as it always seems to leak sooner or later.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

> What about ammonium nitrate mixed in the smoker?

Here are my instructions for re-queening vicious, runny bees with ammonium nitrate. You could also stun a hive and vacuum them up using this method:

Ammonium nitrate - Get a few table spoons from a local wholesale nursery or farmer. Have a new caged queen, division screen and drone guard (entrance queen excluder) ready. Light the smoker, drop in a table spoon of ammonium nitrate, don't inhale the smoke as it will blast out of the smoker. Fumigate the hive with the blasting smoke. The bees will fall unconscious. Shake them onto a sheet in front of the hive. Place all the brood in the upper brood chamber. They will awake from their stupor and walk back into the hive, the queen being found on the entrance excluder. Divide the hive introducing the new queen above the division screen into the box containing the brood. These mean bees will kill the new queen if you try a direct introduction. The division screens sends the old mean bees back to the box down below, young bees above to accept the new queen. Either squish the old queen, or mark her and run her back into the bottom. You will then have to find her and squish her after the new queen up above is accepted, then merging the boxes. 

I did dozens of mean hives in the '70s using this method, works great. I now do most of my bee work in shirt sleeves.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

How about ammonium nitrate mixed with diesel followed by a match.
Just kidding, but nasty bees are no joke.


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## jimsteelejr (Sep 21, 2012)

I can not emphasize enough GET A BEE VAC Buy it or build it but it will make your cut outs so much easier and safer. When bees are being vacuumed they generally don't even have a clue whats going on. Start the vacuum before you even open the wall. When you make your first cut have the vac nozzle right there as the guards come out -slurp and they are in the vac. all the alert pheromones are whisked away and things stay relatively calm. On our cut outs the wife usually does all the vacuuming because she has more patience and is willing to spend more time getting most of the bees before she cuts out the comb. With the vac I can usually remove my veil and gloves with in a few minutes will I do the manual work toting and fetching. The only time things get hot is when we bring the bees to the bee yard and let them out. I made our vac so the inner box is the same dimensions as a 10 frame hive. It has a screen top and a slide off bottom. We put the cut out frames into a deep and set an empty box on top of that with the entrance closed.Then I sit the bee vac box on top and slide the bottom off. One quick rap and the bees drop into the empty hive and Becky ( the wife) slides a top on. There are always a few bees that don't go in that are really pissy but with out the majority of the hive backing them up they just don't get far. We leave the hive alone for an hour or two then slide a feeder jar onto the top. We keep them closed up for two or three days during which time they repair and attach the cut out comb and clean up spilled honey. This prevents robbing events and helps get the bees to become attached to their new home. By the way we never use a smoker on a cut out we are always afraid a spark in a wall could smolder and start a fire, and the smoke can drive the queen further in and we miss her. With the vac you won't need a smoker anyway.


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