# A stumper



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Are all of you convinced that the queen lays all of the drones, and if so, what is your evidence for believing it?

No, the queen does not necessarily lay all the drones. There are likely laying workers (which can only lay drones) in every hive, just not that many (relatively speaking) in a typical _queenright _hive. A reference:



> *There are always multiple laying workers even in a queenright hive
> *
> "Anarchistic bees" are ever present but usually in small enough numbers to not cause a problem and are simply policed by the workers UNLESS they need drones. The number is always small as long as ovary development is suppressed.
> 
> ...


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

"It is unlike nature to ignore what amounts to a freezer full of diverse sperm, and yet they say this is what is going on. I realize that scientists are the ones saying it, and they likely have less knowledge of bees that a beek." 

Read a few more books; it takes a basic amount of knowledge to know what questions to ask. Like chess the first thing needed is to know what the standard moves are for each of the pieces on the board. Strategy comes later.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I suggest you get an observation hive with some drone comb in it and see for yourself who lays the unfertilized eggs. Queen or workers, neither one fertilizes eggs that turn into drones.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

This makes sense, but not in the way the researcher may have intended. If he took worker bees from a hive in July, very few of them would be older than six weeks. If he took worker bees from a hive in early spring, they would be at least twice as old. Perhaps they will develop ovaries if they live long enough. The old bees from the winter would be developed enough to produce drones for swarm season. Now that makes sense....


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

RayMarler said:


> I suggest you get an observation hive with some drone comb in it and see for yourself who lays the unfertilized eggs. Queen or workers, neither one fertilizes eggs that turn into drones.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

I have an observation hive. I believe the comb in the upper left is drone comb. I will admit to not knowing whether Natasha (my queen) laid their eggs or not. In a video through this window, but at a later date you can see that the capping is domed on those cells.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

An interesting side note. I started the colony with a four pound package of Italians, and replaced the queen that came in the package with a Russian queen from a certified breeder. This video was shot as the hive was turning over. If you look closely you can pick the Italians out from the Russians. The Russians are greyer. They don't have that yellower section up towards the middle.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"They say that the queen lays an unfertilized egg that becomes a drone. Is there really good evidence for this? Has someone seen a queen laying an egg in a drone cell and then observed that a drone came out of that cell? I'm not saying they don't but it seems more likely that workers lay eggs that become drones. Nature is logical, cold, and the ultimate cheap smack, it does not make sense that it would ignore this resource."

Alright, Newby, you're going to have to give that brain of yours a rest sometime. The queen's thorax is longer than that of workers. For that reason, supposedly, laying workers cannot lay eggs in the bottom center of the cell. So, if that is the case, if you see the eggs in the bottom center of the drone cell, they must have been laid by the queen. That makes sense if the drone egg is laid in a worker cell (which will happen if there is no queen). (I'm not so sure about a worker not being able to lay bottom center of a drone cell because it is so much larger.) 

But, more importantly, I understand that queens generally don't mate with drones from their own hive. (I think that this is based on Huber's conclusions regarding differences between the distances flown by queens versus drones to drone congregation areas. Those conclusions as best as I recall are based on observations regarding the respective flight times and breeding flight duration of drones versus those of queens.) This also makes sense from a natural standpoint based on the points you made concerning the problems caused by inbreeding. If, indeed, queens generally don't mate with drones from their own hive, then some of the advantages you mention arising from genetic diversity (particularly related to the harmful effects of inbreeding) would not exist. 

But, we do know that workers do lay drone eggs and, as you also indicate, all of this fades to the background if there is repeated empirical support based on observations of queens laying eggs in drone cells that are raised to be drones.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Welcome!


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Ah!! my next wondering.... Do the queens mate with the drones from their own hive... I'm guessing if there are no other drones about they would have to. Where I live I feel there would be no other drones about. If I was to make my next hive by splitting my current one, and queens are the ones that lay the drones, my apiary would be taking a small step towards homozygosity. If the workers provide the drones, this would not be the case. If the queen makes the drones, I would need to bring in a new queen to maintain genetic diversity, one that is unrelated to my current one. I have been thinking about what sort of queen would be best. Another from the Russian bee breeding association would ensure that diversity of genetics would happen because they go to some trouble to make sure their genetics remain diverse. They use a block type program and switch queens. But, if I want to have more hygienic behavior I could go with a Minnesota hygienic queen, or if I wanted gentler bees I could go with Italians, or whatever trait I am aiming for.... (I'm aiming for no health problems and winter survivability) 

The hives should cross breed.... if the queens ignore their own drones... and I'm guessing they would, if they could... Haploid genetics are more confusing than regular ones..... never suspected that the bees would be so complex.... really....


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Where I live I feel there would be no other drones about.


How do you know that? :s

"_I'm not trying to be a jerk _..."  but it seems to me you are making an assumption that may not be accurate.


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> How do you know that? :s
> 
> "_I'm not trying to be a jerk _..."  but it seems to me you are making an assumption that may not be accurate.


I don't know it... I only suspect it. There are no ferile honey bees here, or I have not seen them. I don't know of any beekeeper within foraging distance of me. Ergo, the drones from my hive would be the only ones available. I do not know this as a fact though.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>They say that the queen lays an unfertilized egg that becomes a drone. Is there really good evidence for this? 

Well, we know from looking at the genes that a drone is an unfertilized egg. We know from observing that queens lay these eggs.

>Has someone seen a queen laying an egg in a drone cell and then observed that a drone came out of that cell? I'm not saying they don't but it seems more likely that workers lay eggs that become drones.

I have. I'm sure thousands of others have.

> Nature is logical, cold, and the ultimate cheap smack, it does not make sense that it would ignore this resource. 

What resource?

>I understand that the queen mates with up to, what, 30 drones... so she has genetic material from 30 drones. Her daughters all have the same mother, but they could have one of thirty different fathers. If all drones came from the queen, they would all have the same father and mother. 

Correct.

>The queen can only have the male genetic characteristic from her father... her sons would be products of their grandfathers genetics. A drone from a worker would have the male genetic characteristics of one of the drones that mated with the queen. One of maybe 30 fathers... This would prevent homozygous breeding problems... birth defects that show up in your comb as empty cells.

Each drone or worker egg she lays has a random set of her genes. Each worker has an additional set from one of those 30 or so drone fathers, which is not a random set as each sperm from a given drone is identical because they only had one set, so there are only as many different sets of genes from the sperm as the number of drones she mated with.

> Some people believe this spotting is from the queen going dotty, but I believe it is because, to some degree, the bees detecting birth defects and chewing out the larva. 

We have well documented evidence of two reasons for spotty brood. One is that the sex determination of bees is tied to matching or mismatching of the sex determination allele. If the queen is too inbred she gets the sale allele she has and the egg when fertilized is a diploid drone. These are never allowed to mature as the bees remove them. The other is hygienic behavior which has been studied for at least 80 years now.

>This leaves a spotty looking laying pattern. It is unlike nature to ignore what amounts to a freezer full of diverse sperm, and yet they say this is what is going on.

I'm not sure what you are getting at. But it is what is going on. It doesn't take an electron microscope to see genes and count chromosomes.

>I realize that scientists are the ones saying it, and they likely have less knowledge of bees that a beek.

Less knowledge perhaps of day to day bee behavior, but not less knowledge of the actual genetic goings on...

>Are all of you convinced that the queen lays all of the drones

No. Some of her offspring lay some of them. But she lays most of them. I have been watching bees in my observation hive for hours a day for more than a decade now. The queen is laying those eggs 99% of the time.

> and if so, what is your evidence for believing it?

Direct observation.

>Ah!! my next wondering.... Do the queens mate with the drones from their own hive... I'm guessing if there are no other drones about they would have to.

I'm quite certain the do if there are no other drones about, which is a situation which almost never happens. I'm also quite certain that it happens occasionally. Hence the diploid drone eggs and the spotty brood. There are no direct and definite barriers to this, just some behavior that tends to avoid it.

>Where I live I feel there would be no other drones about. If I was to make my next hive by splitting my current one, and queens are the ones that lay the drones, my apiary would be taking a small step towards homozygosity. If the workers provide the drones, this would not be the case.

The workers are the queen's offspring and possibly the offspring of the drone which may mate with the new queen...

> If the queen makes the drones, I would need to bring in a new queen to maintain genetic diversity

There are plenty of drones out there from other sources.

> one that is unrelated to my current one. I have been thinking about what sort of queen would be best. 

You will end up with an F1 cross which is likely to be mean. I would not bring in other races in the hope of genetic diversity. You many not like what you get. If I want to avoid inbreeding with my Friesian horses I find a Friesian horse that is as unrelated as I can to breed them with. I don't breed them with some other breed. I've seen a cross between a basset hound and a German shepherd. It was not practical nor was it aesthetically pleasing... it's better to cross similar but not too related genetics...

>Another from the Russian bee breeding association would ensure that diversity of genetics would happen because they go to some trouble to make sure their genetics remain diverse. They use a block type program and switch queens. But, if I want to have more hygienic behavior I could go with a Minnesota hygienic queen, or if I wanted gentler bees I could go with Italians, or whatever trait I am aiming for.... (I'm aiming for no health problems and winter survivability) 

The bees you want are out there in the trees. Let your new queen mate with them. They are surviving in your climate...

>The hives should cross breed.... if the queens ignore their own drones... 

Queens do not ignore their own drones. They just usually fly higher and further than the drones do and the result is that they more often than not avoid their own drones than encounter them. This does not mean they don't encounter them...

>and I'm guessing they would, if they could... 

A queen does not seem to be able to tell anything about a drone other than it is a drone...

>Haploid genetics are more confusing than regular ones..... never suspected that the bees would be so complex.... really....

Actually haploid genetics are just different. Not really that complicated.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

"I realize that scientists are the ones saying it, and they likely have less knowledge of bees that a beek." [sic]

Dr. F. L, Ratnieks has done research regarding the policing of the hive and the destruction of the drone eggs from laying workers in a queen-right hive. Worker-laid eggs that escape destruction will develop into normal drones but they are relatively few and far between. Of course, Dr Ratnieks is a research scientist and we note the disdain you have for his knowledge of the subject.

Other research indicates queens generally will mate with drones from other hives. Again this research has been done by scientists.

Believe what you want. Useless to argue with a newly-minted expert whose mind is made up and their regard for education is as limited as their experience in the most basic aspects of the subject matter they are questioning.

You are presenting a weak hypothesis and asking others to validate it. Get some experience, acquire a knowledge of the subject, do some experimentation and then demonstrate exactly how ignorant Dr. Ratnieks and all the other eminent entomologists are.

And welcome to Beesource.

Wayne


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

I don't believe very much that I can't see logic for. I don't disdain scientists, they are in charge of keeping known knowledge safe from wahoos with theories. BUT, when they learn something new, it is usually from some wahoo with a theory. I'm not asking for my theory to be validated, I'm just curious and I have an open mind. What seems to be understood doesn't make sense in the way that the flat earth theory people didn't make sense, and the sun revolves around the earth people didn't make sense, and the men can't fly people didn't make sense. Sometimes you have to ask questions and study. 

My point with the scientists not knowing as much as an experienced beek was that a beek does know more about day to day behavior if they have been witnessing it for longer than a scientist. I am more impressed with ecology than biology. If I want to know what you are eating, I should follow you around and watch. (ecologist) OR, I could cut your stomach open and see whats in there. (biologist) I was not disdaining.....


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## wcnewby (Sep 28, 2014)

Thank you, Mr. Bush, for a well supported and reasoned response.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

First, welcome to Beesource and Wisconsin Beekeeping.
Second, I wouldn't classify bees as "odd animals", lol. I prefer to think of them as highly "misunderstood" but there are many folks here on the board to help in that department.
Thirdly, there is a ton of scientific research in beekeeping and beekeeping genetics and many of those scientists know more about beekeeping than most of us here could ever hope to know, and with specialized research facilities can dig deeper into genetics than a beekeeper, no matter how observant or experienced, can hope to dig. Whew, sorry for the run-on sentence, lol. Anyways, do a little (or a lot!) of reading. As you say, "Sometimes you have to ask questions and study". I agree but I would put the "study" first, from many sources, so as to avoid "reinventing the wheel" so to speak. But maybe that's just me.
Fourth.....What Micheal said.
Fifth.......Welcome to Beesource.


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