# Soybean Pollination



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Some folks here claim that bees don't work soybean, Mine have worked it heavily 2 of the last 4 yrs. As far as yield goes I can't answer that other than what the farmer neighbor tells me, and he claims that since I got bees his soybean field closest to my house avg. 35% higher than all his other fields throughout the county. Again that is just a claim I don't know how he came up with those numbers.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ya I doubt a third increase. 
I find as many bees in soy as I do corn, zero


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## costigaj (Oct 28, 2015)

Soybean and Corn are GMO laden. Not good for bees.


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## lingleybros (Aug 20, 2012)

I have never noticed bees interested in my soybeans. Maybe because of more desirable forage at the same timeframe...don't really know. It'd be cool, though. BTW, "GMO laden" soybean and corn being bad for bees?...much better than an insecticide (pyrethrin) laden alternative. That actually IS bad for bees.


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## Rzrbackbees (Mar 17, 2015)

I have access to a soybean farm in a great bottomland area that borders a large wildlife refuge. There is a lot of natural vegetation for miles. The bees still work the soybeans heavy. The field literally buzzes while I'm walking the rows picking up native artifacts. I'm not sure on soybean yields increasing but this spot produces some great honey.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Rzrbackbees said:


> I have access to a soybean farm in a great bottomland area that borders a large wildlife refuge. There is a lot of natural vegetation for miles. The bees still work the soybeans heavy. The field literally buzzes while I'm walking the rows picking up native artifacts. I'm not sure on soybean yields increasing but this spot produces some great honey.


yup, one of my biggest flows when it pans out is soybean honey. Love it!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

costigaj said:


> Soybean and Corn are GMO laden. Not good for bees.


OK Forrest.


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

Ive been told by farmers that they see an increase in yield on fields where colonies are located. No idea how much of an increase though. And i do know that some years the bees dont touch the beans. i'm sure its like everything; some years its easier pickings for them on other crops but when it comes together they make some pretty impressive crops of honey off beans. not good honey that I'd want to bottle but honey nonetheless


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

BigBlackBirds said:


> Ive been told by farmers that they see an increase in yield on fields where colonies are located. No idea how much of an increase though. And i do know that some years the bees dont touch the beans. i'm sure its like everything; some years its easier pickings for them on other crops but when it comes together they make some pretty impressive crops of honey off beans. not good honey that I'd want to bottle but honey nonetheless


you don't like it? It's often confused with clover honey but IMO it's better and as far a some yrs crops other yrs not, yes that's the case.... I think 3 things have to align in order for a crop... 1 the farmer has to plant a variety that will actually produce a nectar ( I think this is the biggest reason some folks don't think bees will work beans) 2 I think we need a really wet spring.... and finally we need a really hot summer when they are in bloom.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

costigaj said:


> Soybean and Corn are GMO laden. Not good for bees.


Uh, not good how? I've had my bees next to hundreds of acres of soybeans and corn for the 10 years I've been doing this. Do you have any scientifically based repeatable studies of this or is this opinion? 



Harley Craig said:


> you don't like it? It's often confused with clover honey but IMO it's better and as far a some yrs crops other yrs not, yes that's the case.... I think 3 things have to align in order for a crop... 1 the farmer has to plant a variety that will actually produce a nectar ( I think this is the biggest reason some folks don't think bees will work beans) 2 I think we need a really wet spring.... and finally we need a really hot summer when they are in bloom.


Most of the time I get nothing from them. I've had 2 years where I did though. The only time I've gotten a flow was if they were planted before July 4th weekend, it was wet when they have full canopy and are blooming, and VERY hot. Take away any of those three and they produce no flow. I've seen white and purple flowers on them in different years but one color didn't correlate to my flows. I've got no idea what the names of the respective planting were either. It's great when they do produce but I don't count on it.


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

why are people convinced GMO is bad for bees? do they think that the genes will jump or the spray that the the plants are treated with are bad for them? round up ready bees might go over. like small cell bees...


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

SS Auck said:


> why are people convinced GMO is bad for bees? do they think that the genes will jump or the spray that the the plants are treated with are bad for them? round up ready bees might go over. like small cell bees...


Woah... I've got a marketing idea... Gluten resistant, Roundup ready, GMO resistant bees for sale. There'll invariably be goofballs who'll buy bees for those "features" alone.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

SS Auck said:


> why are people convinced GMO is bad for bees? do they think that the genes will jump or the spray that the the plants are treated with are bad for them? round up ready bees might go over. like small cell bees...


Because for most it's easy to repeat nonsense then to actually educate themselves on the matter or the methods. For instance, if Costijag can biochemically tell me why GMO pollen is bad for bees on a scientific level then I'd give him/her credit where credit is due, but for now they might as well be Forrest Gump with the comment they made.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

JRG13 said:


> Because for most it's easy to repeat nonsense then to actually educate themselves on the matter or the methods. For instance, if Costijag can biochemically tell me why GMO pollen is bad for bees on a scientific level then I'd give him/her credit where credit is due, but for now they might as well be Forrest Gump with the comment they made.


Scientific level? Heck, I would settle for a carefully thought out and logical explanation.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Beef and dairy cattle are all GMO too. About 30% of the DNA in cattle came directly from snakes by horizontal DNA transfer of a copy and paste transposon named Boveb. So, if you do not eat GMOs you better give up all beef. Mom nature has been making GMOs by horizontal DNA transfer now for a few billion years. She is better at it than lab people. Everything you eat is a GMO product. In fact, unless you can claim you have never had a virus in your whole life you as an individual are a brand new version of a GMO that has never been made before.


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

Richard Cryberg said:


> Beef and dairy cattle are all GMO too. About 30% of the DNA in cattle came directly from snakes by horizontal DNA transfer of a copy and paste transposon named Boveb. So, if you do not eat GMOs you better give up all beef. Mom nature has been making GMOs by horizontal DNA transfer now for a few billion years. She is better at it than lab people. Everything you eat is a GMO product. In fact, unless you can claim you have never had a virus in your whole life you as an individual are a brand new version of a GMO that has never been made before.


well you are wrong that she is better than lab people but right that it happens in nature. We have come a long way from shooting dna into corn and soybean seeds with rimfire loaded with shot coated in dna. they can put about whatever gene into whatever cell. Just dont know what they do when they are in there. 


But for real do any of the gmo is bad people want to elaborate on how. I am open to explanation... I am skeptical but would listen.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

D Coates said:


> Woah... I've got a marketing idea... Gluten resistant, Roundup ready, GMO resistant bees for sale. There'll invariably be goofballs who'll buy bees for those "features" alone.


already beat you to the punch LOL http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?323131-2000-Nucs&highlight=harley+special+bees


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

It seems to me I read that the geneticly modified part of the plant is that they turn off the part of the gene that makes polination necessary...They are only good for one year and then you have to buy more of thier gmo seed,,,All the resources of the plant go into making beans and not flower and pollen....
I also read somewhere that if you plant open pollenated beans (real beans that need to pollenate) that you could become competitive in the market because of the decrease in chemicles needed to make the frankenstines productive...
So even though the yeald per acre may not be as great as with gmo's , the costs are less and become competitive, especially with pollinators....
This is all memory for me so dont roast me on this but maybe it will geneerate some constructive discussion on this topic ...

==McBee7==


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## btt221 (Apr 7, 2016)

SS Auck said:


> But for real do any of the gmo is bad people want to elaborate on how. I am open to explanation... I am skeptical but would listen.


If GMO was not bad then we would not have a need for USDA Organic food. I like clean food--organic. Not Monsanto's (a cheat company) dirty GMO organisms--not even food.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

McBee7, you are referring to hybrid crop breeding, not gmo


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

btt221 said:


> If GMO was not bad then we would not have a need for USDA Organic food. I like clean food--organic. Not Monsanto's (a cheat company) dirty GMO organisms--not even food.


What are you like 12 years old with that line of reasoning?


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

So back to the soybeans....


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## btt221 (Apr 7, 2016)

If you want to eat GMO organisms go ahead; you might also like Soylent Green.


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## Scpossum (May 4, 2014)

Cross pollinated cotton produces more seed, a bigger box, quality, and more lint. I will try to find the article I was reading. I would think the same thing is true about beans if the conditions are right.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

why does everyone pick on Monsanto when they talk about GMO's they aren't even the big dogs in the game, they are like 6-7 down the list.


Edit: thew were the largest seed company, but down the list on pesticides which is what beekeepers are typically concerned with.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I am curious if it is worth moving bees to soy bean. My dad has about 30 acres in beans. I am in missouri and have two swarms with half drawn boxes and no drawn comb. Would soy bean be considerred a flow that might get or keep bees drawing wax later in the year?
Thanks
gww


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

gww said:


> I am curious if it is worth moving bees to soy bean. My dad has about 30 acres in beans. I am in missouri and have two swarms with half drawn boxes and no drawn comb. Would soy bean be considerred a flow that might get or keep bees drawing wax later in the year?
> Thanks
> gww


Mine have drawn wax on a soybean flow...... but.....It seems D coates sees the same 3 ingredients needed for a flow that I do, what are the odds that the stars and moon align and all 3 factors fall into place. I don't think I would move my hives to soybeans unless I knew the farmer was growing an old school mid to long season variety Like Kent, but I'm glad they are near my yard when it works out


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Soon everyone will need to complain to Bayer, how many actually associate Bayer with biotechnology? Our Monsanto buzz word is soon to disappear


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## pinkpantherbeekeeper (Feb 10, 2016)

Harley Craig said:


> ... I think 3 things have to align in order for a crop... 1 the farmer has to plant a variety that will actually produce a nectar ( I think this is the biggest reason some folks don't think bees will work beans) 2 I think we need a really wet spring.... and finally we need a really hot summer when they are in bloom.


I think you hit the nail in the head about the beans needing to produce nectar. I don't have anything to back that up, but from an evolution point of view why would self fertile flower need nectar? It would be interesting to know hybrids that do or don't produce nectar. Heck, even comparing pollination of the two would be interesting. It would be a good thesis for a college grad to test out. 

Would the really hot summer contribute to the beans being the only available nectar/pollen source? Or possibly the timing of the beans blooming vs other foraging sources competing with them? I have seen bees on tassels of corn before collecting pollen. Obviously there is no benefit to the corn for this, but at the time in that location it was the nearest pollen source. 

Thanks for all the replies! :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yeah, Ian, after Bayer take over Mansanto or in a merger I should say.
The deal is about $64 billion if memory serves. The hybrids is not the 
terminator gene method. The hybrids can produce something else unlike the
parents in the next generation. Something that will not grow true to the parent unlike the
OP (open pollinated) plants. But the terminator gene of what McBee7 mentioned
here is the deadly one. You basically have to keep on buying the seeds owned and patented
by the invented company year after year because of the terminator aspect of it. They can also
program the plants to do certain things at certain time of the growing season. 
Now inserting a salmon gene into the tomato plant is truly a GMO method. Or inserting an animal
aggression gene into the human DNA to make the soldier more aggressive in the battle field is another
form of GMO or gene modification. Don't know what the end result will be? Is it temporary or permanent?
The bee genome has already been map out. So maybe someday someone will be able to take all the good
aspect of the Caucasians (the gene that control just the low temp. forage ability) combined with the Cordovan (lighter
color of it) to produce another line of bee via the gene drive method. I wonder what is the name of it should bee? 
Oh, don't grilled me here as I don't know a bit about plants or animal genetics! The science aspect of it being a common
beekeeper student only. So GMO soybean is no good (as I don't know what they put inside) but OP soybean is good for me and the bees too.


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

Guess I've never heard of a "terminator" gene in my crops. With regard to soybeans, the reason I have to purchase new seed every year rather than use what I produced last year is the patent law. Most of the gmo traits are protected by patents and the court system has creamed farmers who have "stolen" this "intellectual" property by planting seed they raised. It would be like paying a $5000 fine for selling nucs containing queens with Lauri's mountain line genetics. 

Patent expired on the original roundup gene a year or 2 ago, which would allow you to keep your own now, but most of the seed companies quit offering those varieties 2 years before, opting for the "roundup ready 2" gene which has many more years of protection. Tricky bunch. 

University researchers here are now claiming that even though self pollinated, soybeans do often show a yield response to honeybees. I'm hoping...

And the older commercial guys around here claim to have made good honey yields from soybeans here. We have a long bloom due to different maturity varieties, and irrigation. And it's always hot in July and August...


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

beepro said:


> Yeah, Ian, after Bayer take over Mansanto or in a merger I should say.
> The deal is about $64 billion if memory serves. The hybrids is not the
> terminator gene method. The hybrids can produce something else unlike the
> parents in the next generation. Something that will not grow true to the parent unlike the
> ...


I help on my father in laws farm some. He seed beans for monsanto. They dont give him special seed. he just buys seed from local seed dealer. then tells them what they are when he trucks them to marshall mo. There is no terminator gene in soybeans like they dont have the traits. You do have to have a large enough field that you dont get cross pollination from non gmo field. 
i have seen bees work soybeans. the beans have to stay cool almost in the shade for them to have nectar. I think i had heard that the nectar drys up.


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

beepro said:


> Yeah, Ian, after Bayer take over Mansanto or in a merger I should say.
> The deal is about $64 billion if memory serves. The hybrids is not the
> terminator gene method. The hybrids can produce something else unlike the
> parents in the next generation. Something that will not grow true to the parent unlike the
> ...


I help on my father in laws farm some. He seed beans for monsanto. They dont give him special seed. he just buys seed from local seed dealer. then tells them what they are when he trucks them to marshall mo. There is no terminator gene in soybeans like they dont have the traits. You do have to have a large enough field that you dont get cross pollination from non gmo field. 
i have seen bees work soybeans. the beans have to stay cool almost in the shade for them to have nectar. I think i had heard that the nectar drys up.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

the terminator gene is not active in any seed products available for sale


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

gww said:


> I am curious if it is worth moving bees to soy bean. My dad has about 30 acres in beans. I am in missouri and have two swarms with half drawn boxes and no drawn comb. Would soy bean be considerred a flow that might get or keep bees drawing wax later in the year?
> Thanks
> gww


Ditto Harley. I wouldn't move them to try to catch a soybean flow. They're not even in the ground up here yet.


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

Dcoates you guys behind up there? june planted beans?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Harley and D 
Thanks for answering my question. I doubt the farmer is using old school seed. I just thought it might be the only game in town at bloom. My first year bee keeping.
Thanks
gww


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

btt221 said:


> If GMO was not bad then we would not have a need for USDA Organic food. I like clean food--organic. Not Monsanto's (a cheat company) dirty GMO organisms--not even food.


I am open to any science on this issue and am not firmly entrenched in a side of the GMO debate, however, I will point out that I do not think that it is accurate to say there was a "need" for USDA Organic Food. We all survived without it. Simply because it now exists, does not mean we needed it. We never needed to infuse strawberry flavoring into our wine, but Boone's Farm elected to do it so now it is a product. I would not make the argument that we "needed" strawberry-flavored wine, merely because it exists.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I know this is a bit off subject. My thoughts go something like. If it is so popular to plant the gmo and all other older types get cross pollinated. Then it is like some of the comments on all bees coming from one location. If something new pops up and affects the gmo plant that may not affect a differrent type it would be nice if some diversity was still left. I am just an uneducated hick that thinks more on gut level then actual using of facts. If I was planting I would follow the money. I just don't know the good or bad of it.
Not sure how far off subject I am.
gww


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

There is movement back to non GMO because there is a premium on it around the mississippi. They are shipped to China for food. Also people can clean non GMO to plant for next season. GMO crops all have contracts where you can't clean and plant for the next season.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

SS Auck said:


> Dcoates you guys behind up there? june planted beans?


Apparently. I've not seen any beans go in yet from here down to Osceola. Some years they get in by May but lately it's getting in during June or even early July if June is too wet. The early July stuff seems to have trouble getting to canopy and is much more susceptible to drying out as summer kicks in. I'm not a farmer but I'm not certain why they wait so long to get them in some years.

Corn is in and already 4"-6"... or drowned in low lying areas.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

btt221 said:


> If GMO was not bad then we would not have a need for USDA Organic food. I like clean food--organic. Not Monsanto's (a cheat company) dirty GMO organisms--not even food.


Some people believe that GMO's are bad so they want "Organic" food. An "Organic" food market pops up. You can't taste the difference, no repeatable scientifically based information supports the anti-GMO movement but people believe it's better for them and they buy it for +2x the price (First world issue). My mother-in-law is one of these folks. She'll brag that XYZ that she just bought is "organic." I'll ask how do you actually know it's "organic" and you didn't just get double charged? You can't taste the difference it's not proven to increase your quality of life or prolong it. She responds, "but I feel it does." We've done this dance enough times she no longer brags about it, but she still buys it. ...and there's the crutch. This is all about "feelings" not actual results or findings.

To indicate that non "organic" food is somehow dirty or not even food and that Monsanto is a "cheat company" indicates how much cool aid has been consumed.


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## Scpossum (May 4, 2014)

D Coates said:


> Apparently. I've not seen any beans go in yet from here down to Osceola. Some years they get in by May but lately it's getting in during June or even early July if June is too wet. The early July stuff seems to have trouble getting to canopy and is much more susceptible to drying out as summer kicks in. I'm not a farmer but I'm not certain why they wait so long to get them in some years.
> 
> Corn is in and already 4"-6"... or drowned in low lying areas.


Depends on what crop you are following, weather, equipment need, money, etc. 

I am confused on the organic issue. If it has rained on it or air has touched it, I don't see it as organic. They need organic levels. Level 0=Death food Level 1= 5% organic. Level 2= 10% organic Level3=15% organic. ...Level 20= Angel food :doh:


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## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

Scpossum said:


> Depends on what crop you are following, weather, equipment need, money, etc.
> 
> I am confused on the organic issue. If it has rained on it or air has touched it, I don't see it as organic. They need organic levels. Level 0=Death food Level 1= 5% organic. Level 2= 10% organic Level3=15% organic. ...Level 20= Angel food :doh:


Its all a bunch of nonsense. 


I know an apple grower who grows one orchard organically and one 'conventionally' - he sprays the organic one more than 20 times a year. The conventional one gets sprayed 4 times. 

Organic isn't about food being safe, or food being clean, or food being pesticide free - its a ideological stance against modern science.



One of my favorite nonsensical organic tidbits is that plants that are exposed to mutagenic radiation are saleable as organic without any sort of further testing - as opposed to GMOs which go through the most stringent food-based testing regime on the planet.


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## btt221 (Apr 7, 2016)

Scpossum said:


> "...
> 
> I am confused on the organic issue....":


Organic bee keeping is real! See Youtube video "Organically Managed Beekeeping Conference 2016, Bruce Brown: Part 1 of 2" : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORwHm3RqVew


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

"Organic isn't about food being safe, or food being clean, or food being pesticide free - its a ideological stance against modern science."

This is like not taking meds for a headache or giving birth without meds.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

btt221 said:


> If GMO was not bad then we would not have a need for USDA Organic food. I like clean food--organic. Not Monsanto's (a cheat company) dirty GMO organisms--not even food.





btt221 said:


> Organic bee keeping is real! See Youtube video "Organically Managed Beekeeping Conference 2016, Bruce Brown: Part 1 of 2" : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORwHm3RqVew


Honestly, if not for knowing some beekeepers personally, I'd be embarrassed to be associated with the majority of the hobbyist level beekeepers on this site. 

It's too bad you missed this conference, btt221, sounds like it would have been right up your alley:


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

btt221 said:


> Organic bee keeping is real!


 From how many years of personal experience keeping bees can you make this statement?

*Regenerative Natural Beekeeping* "Bees are profound teachers, once revered as heavenly messengers and divine beings. The oneness of the bee colony reveals the interconnectedness of the world and our interdependence with nature" ...what a bunch of Lola granola hippie hookie


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

LOL hippy hookie


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

D Coates said:


> ...what a bunch of Lola granola hippie hookie





> The earth has a light of its own deep within it. Across the land there are energetic openings in the earth’s surface called LUMENS where the earth’s light and sunlight joyously communicate with each other. Earth’s light interacts with the sun, singing earth’s planetary signature and contributing to the blended symphonic sound of all the planets’ chords.
> 
> Inside the sparkling cone-shaped lumen the earth focuses on the sun’s light in acknowledgment of the earth and sun’s gravitational relationship. The natural mating flights of honeybees take place in the lumen, in portals visible to drones and queens.
> 
> ...


http://spiritbee.com/maidens/


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

CrazyTalk said:


> Its all a bunch of nonsense.
> 
> 
> I know an apple grower who grows one orchard organically and one 'conventionally' - he sprays the organic one more than 20 times a year. The conventional one gets sprayed 4 times.
> ...



Organic food isn't even healthier or more nutritious than regular food: 

https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-n...-benefits-from-organic-foods-study-finds.html

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...why-organic-food-may-not-be-healthier-for-you

http://www.zmescience.com/other/science-abc/organic-food-science02092015/


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Nabber86 said:


> Organic food isn't even healthier or more nutritious than regular food:


https://www.organicconsumers.org/old_articles/Organic/fecal-contamination.php



> A recent comparative analysis of organic produce versus conventional produce from the University of Minnesota shows that the organically grown produce had 9.7 percent positive samples for the presence of generic E. coli bacteria versus only 1.6 percent for conventional produce on farms in Minnesota.
> The study, which was published in May in the Journal of Food Protection, concluded, "the observation that the prevalence of E. coli was significantly higher in organic produce supports the idea that organic produce is more susceptible to fecal contamination."


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

jwcarlson said:


> http://spiritbee.com/maidens/


LUMENS, portals, SCARPs, embosoming blanket, virgin bower...? If my eyes could vomit, my computer screen and keyboard would be covered.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

D Coates said:


> LUMENS, portals, SCARPs, embosoming blanket, virgin bower...? If my eyes could vomit, my computer screen and keyboard would be covered.


You want eye vomit? Check this idiot out:


>




For $300 you can watch her perform her art: http://saramapellibeequeen.com/index.html


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzEr23XJwFY


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

Ok.. So soybeans. Who regularly makes a crop off them again and where? Is this just a southern state thing?


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## adg72484 (Nov 22, 2015)

I started two new hives this year 10ft from the border of 115 acres of soybeans. I will report my findings later this season. Also have 3/4 acre of pumpkins 20 yards away from my new hives.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Sunday Farmer said:


> Ok.. So soybeans. Who regularly makes a crop off them again and where? Is this just a southern state thing?


if you consider IL southern, the WI and MI guys do LOL


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## Rzrbackbees (Mar 17, 2015)

Sunday Farmer said:


> Ok.. So soybeans. Who regularly makes a crop off them again and where? Is this just a southern state thing?


Central Arkansas with 1000's of acres of beans and abundant feral river bottom fields. Great crops of honey.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Sunday Farmer said:


> Ok.. So soybeans. Who regularly makes a crop off them again and where? Is this just a southern state thing?


I've described my soybean honey in the past as odorless, tasteless and virtually undetectable. I take others at their word when they claim honey production off of them but my commercial experience in central Minnesota and southern South Dakota over the past 40 years is its rare to even find a bee working in a soybean field. My perspective is if soybeans were a major nectar source then Iowa and Illinois would be leading honey production states......they aren't.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I suspect that "soy honey" to be flowing from weeds within or around the fields. 
Nobody I know moves into soy production land


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## Rzrbackbees (Mar 17, 2015)

Ian said:


> I suspect that "soy honey" to be flowing from weeds within or around the fields.
> Nobody I know moves into soy production land


There's no doubt that all honey is a mixture of 1000's of different flowering plants. There are a number of commercial operations around here that set up on the bean farms. Most bean farms are in fertile areas where those other plants/trees also grow. I'll find out the variety but the fields are loaded with bees.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Rzrbackbees said:


> I'll find out the variety but the fields are loaded with bees.



I asked the local farmer what he planted and he called them " 33's " what ever that means. But yes the fields are loaded with bees I can hear them from my back porch 40 ft away but it's either all or nothing, for example right now they are hitting my persimmons hard but I still see quite a few bees on the clover in the yard. When the beans are right, I don't see bees on anything else.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Is there anything else for them to be on though, Harley?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> Is there anything else for them to be on though, Harley?


on years the beans don't produce they are still working the tail end of clover.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

McBee7 said:


> It seems to me I read that the geneticly modified part of the plant is that they turn off the part of the gene that makes polination necessary...They are only good for one year and then you have to buy more of thier gmo seed,,,All the resources of the plant go into making beans and not flower and pollen....
> I also read somewhere that if you plant open pollenated beans (real beans that need to pollenate) that you could become competitive in the market because of the decrease in chemicles needed to make the frankenstines productive...
> So even though the yeald per acre may not be as great as with gmo's , the costs are less and become competitive, especially with pollinators....
> This is all memory for me so dont roast me on this but maybe it will geneerate some constructive discussion on this topic ...
> ...


McBee, the GMO traits have nothing to do with making pollination necessary etc... the 'traits' are licensed, when you buy seed with traits, you agree to not self propagate them which is why you buy seed every year. Also, most of the lines are probably elite hybrids, so you wouldn't want to save the seed anyway.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

# 33, eh?
Like all crops, every hybrids or crossed seeds I like to call them have a number assigned to them for
future identification purposes. The gourd #99 is excellent for production with a higher than average
harvest tailored to this local environment. Yes, they can even made the crop to fit in with the local
climate too. The 45 days canola is a good example at the other side of the globe. But do they do well
here also? That I need to find out how early or whether or not they can even survive here. Will see if
the imported corp is compatible with the local ones too.


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## lingleybros (Aug 20, 2012)

JRG13 Correct, nothing to do with pollination. Regardless of type of beans, still have to have a pollinated flower to make a bean.

McBee All soybeans are open pollinated (non-hybrid) which is why you can save the second generation seed and plant it. Hybrid corn seed is produced each year by cross breeding specific male and female plants, producing a "hybrid" seed. The offspring from that hybrid seed won't be identical as unpredictable genetic variations occur in the successive generations. So this is why "saving" seed from corn is not an issue for Monsanto only beans. 



JRG13 said:


> McBee, the GMO traits have nothing to do with making pollination necessary etc... the 'traits' are licensed, when you buy seed with traits, you agree to not self propagate them which is why you buy seed every year. Also, most of the lines are probably elite hybrids, so you wouldn't want to save the seed anyway.


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

Harley Craig said:


> I asked the local farmer what he planted and he called them " 33's " what ever that means. But yes the fields are loaded with bees I can hear them from my back porch 40 ft away but it's either all or nothing, for example right now they are hitting my persimmons hard but I still see quite a few bees on the clover in the yard. When the beans are right, I don't see bees on anything else.


Will almost garantee "33" refers to the maturity. As in an early-to-mid group 3 soybean. Here, we plant everything from late group 3's (39's) to late group 5's (58's). Makes for a long bloom window. Especially with planting dates ranging from April 25 to July 1.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Bdfarmer555 said:


> Will almost garantee "33" refers to the maturity. As in an early-to-mid group 3 soybean. Here, we plant everything from late group 3's (39's) to late group 5's (58's). Makes for a long bloom window. Especially with planting dates ranging from April 25 to July 1.


interesting. Thanks for the info. hey typically get beans in the ground around last week of april/ first week of may and I typically harvest honey 4th of july weekend and put supers back on just in time for beans, on a good yr I'm ready to harvest again by the end of july and the blooms seem to last about 2.5 weeks. Don't think it's going to happen this yr, they haven't even gotten them in the ground yet.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

btt221 said:


> If GMO was not bad then we would not have a need for USDA Organic food. I like clean food--organic. Not Monsanto's (a cheat company) dirty GMO organisms--not even food.


First attempt at response was lost:

1) The federal organic labeling was created long before GMOs were an issue. And I believe it was created because of some degree of consumer demand, which I would qualify as a "want" not a "need".
2) Your broad brush as all GMOs as "dirty" and "not food" is not thought out. I'm pretty sure that most GMOs are innocuous and actually pretty good food to boot. 
3) In regards to bees, there is a possibility that what was changed in the genes could reflect in the quality of the pollen or nectar, but probably unlikely.
4) If you don't like the idea of the 'mixing' of genes. Don't eat apples[SUP]1[/SUP], strawberries[SUP]2[/SUP], or Concord grape juice[SUP]3[/SUP], or possibly many plants bred (whether hybrid or no) in the last 50 years[SUP]4[/SUP].

Lest you think I'm rahrah over GMOs, I do have major issues with things as they currently stand:
1) I think that the patenting of genes is an anathema.
2) Monsanto is a scary company if not evil, and I'm even more frightened by the idea of them being purchased by Bayer.
3) I think that GMO crops should go through a review process before being released.
4) I think some of the herbicide resistant crops are leading to resistant weeds occurring faster (there are now certain weeds resistant to Roundup, because (in my mind) its overuse).

[SUP]1[/SUP]I have read that it is believed that apples are an ancient (pre-human meddling) hybrid between two species in the rose family.
[SUP]2[/SUP]Modern strawberries are a hybrid between a North American strawberry and a Chilean strawberry that happened in Europe and would likely have not occurred naturally.
[SUP]3[/SUP]All the "American" commercial grapes are now often designated as _Vitus lambruscana_, (instead of_ V. lambrusca_) as they are believed to be hybrids of American species and the European wine grape (_V. vinifera_).
[SUP]4[/SUP]To increase the variability of genes, plant breeders have for years been using radiation to cause mutations. My problem with that is that ultimately we know the visible changes, but there could be underlying changes to genes we don't see visible effects from.


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## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

crmauch said:


> Lest you think I'm rahrah over GMOs, I do have major issues with things as they currently stand:
> 1) I think that the patenting of genes is an anathema.
> 2) Monsanto is a scary company if not evil, and I'm even more frightened by the idea of them being purchased by Bayer.
> 3) I think that GMO crops should go through a review process before being released.
> 4) I think some of the herbicide resistant crops are leading to resistant weeds occurring faster (there are now certain weeds resistant to Roundup, because (in my mind) its overuse).


Not to get all nitpicky, but our food supply is a hugely important issue to me, and the entire structure of modern agriculture is being torn down because of ungrounded fears. 


1. Patenting of plants, and their genes has been going on in the USA since 1931 - the patenting of plant genes is a very old thing. There are significantly more patented non-GMO food crops than there are patented GMO food crops, and there are quite a few unpatented GMOs (like Golden Rice). Gene patenting is a completely different issue than GMO.

2. Monsanto has their issues - they're not a nice company - but they're not materially worse than any other multi-national $50B company - people do terrible things when that much money is at stake. That being said - the biggest issue with Monsanto is that they're a $50B company in a market where $200B companies play, and those companies spend way more at lobbying and advertising than they do, and are better at it. Monsanto had $15B in revenue last year - Coca-Cola had 17 distinct organic brands that each produced over $1B in revenue, and that's not even accounting for the other big guys (General Mills, Hain, WhiteWave, Perdue, Kellogg, etc each have >$5B of yearly organic/non-gmo revenue, whole foods had $11B). 

3. GMO foods DO go through a review process before they're released - and that review process is intensive, and involves testing for all known potentially allergenic proteins. This is a process that other plants don't go through - because of this you are drastically less likely to have any sort of reaction or health issue consuming a GMO plant than a new conventionally bred plant (or mutagenic treated plant - which go through absolutely no testing). There are numerous examples throughout US history of conventionally bred produce being in widespread circulation and killing people (Lenape potato - supposed to be the perfect chip potato - but made people terribly sick; the "killer Organic Zuchinni" in New Zealand; celery with toxicly high levels of psoralens; etc). There's also significantly greater legal liability with GMO plants - you can actually go after the companies that designed these things if they're unsafe (instead of the farm/company that sold the actual produce)

4. Herbicide resistance is going to happen any time you use herbicides - and herbicide usage is rampant in all agriculture, GMO, organic, or otherwise. Its a separate issue - RoundUp is basically the chemical that made commercial scale No Till farming possible - which is way better for the soil than traditional yearly tilling (which is what most commercial organic farms do). Any pest management system is eventually going to fail - just what evolution does.

To tie this back to bees - because RoundUp often gets brought up as killing plants that they (and native pollinators use) - so does tilling crops several times a year. The bee-related issue isn't RoundUp - its large scale mega-farming of single crops - and that's just as much (if not moreso) an issue in the organic world as it is the conventional one.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Ask a farmer about Roundup resistant pigweed, good old red-root amaranth. It's speading all over, and was made by MOTHER NATURE. Thats right, nature made the same Genetic Modification that was added to corn and soy. It's from ... exposure to Roundup. It isn't Frankenstein's monster, it's a metabolic pathway. Nature made the way, to resist Roundup in the first place. 

Some of the ignorance here is astounding.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Pretty hilarious watching this topic unveil. I'd be curious to see what the two groups of people look like in 20 years, and even more interesting is what their offspring (or lack thereof) will look like. My guess is the organic eaters and GMO avoiders will be slender and healthy with children who have all their limbs, and the disbelievers the opposite.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Read the last line of my previous post;

"Some of the ignorance here is astounding"

Some consider the lockstep swallowing of propaganda smart. It actually is political molding of people. But , I rest my case.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

btt221 said:


> If GMO was not bad then we would not have a need for USDA Organic food. I like clean food--organic. Not Monsanto's (a cheat company) dirty GMO organisms--not even food.


And that is a powerful fact based arguement.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

ABK said:


> Pretty hilarious watching this topic unveil. I'd be curious to see what the two groups of people look like in 20 years, and even more interesting is what their offspring (or lack thereof) will look like. My guess is the organic eaters and GMO avoiders will be slender and healthy with children who have all their limbs, and the disbelievers the opposite.


How do they eat in Sub-Saharan Africa?



> In the 31 countries at the bottom of the list, 28 of which are in sub-Saharan Africa, a person can hope to live on average only 46 years, or 32 years less than the average life expectancy in countries of advanced human development.


http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=20548


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## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

Brad Bee said:


> And that is a powerful fact based arguement.


Its funny, because his argument is almost exactly why the USDA didn't want to have an organic classification - they were worried that people would think it was a measure of 'healthiness'. 

Dan Glickman, Secretary of Agriculture (and the guy who was in charge of creating the USDA organic label) :



> "The organic label is a marketing tool, It is not a statement about food safety. Nor is 'organic' a value judgment about nutrition or quality."





> "What is organic? Generally, it is agriculture produced through a natural as opposed to synthetic process. The natural portion of the definition is fairly obvious, but process is an equally critical distinction. When we certify organic, we are certifying not just a product but the farming and handling practices that yield it. When you buy a certified organic tomato, for instance, you are buying the product of an organic farm. And, consumers are willing to fork over a little more for that tomato. They've shown that they will pay a premium for organic food. National standards are our way of ensuring that consumers get what they pay for."


Organic is a way to ensure that people can pay more for food than they need to, based on ideological criteria that has nothing to do with healthiness of food safety.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

It's pretty safe to say that the only thing we really know about organic food is that it's got a lot more poop on it (on average) than conventionally produced food.

ABK... he/she honestly believe it with all of their mind, soul, and being. Probably nurtured in a safe space where no one has every really disagreed with them too. There's a pattern developing in his/her(?) posts... they want help, but they don't want to hear anything.


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

jadebees said:


> Ask a farmer about Roundup resistant pigweed, good old red-root amaranth. It's speading all over, and was made by MOTHER NATURE. Thats right, nature made the same Genetic Modification that was added to corn and soy. It's from ... exposure to Roundup. It isn't Frankenstein's monster, it's a metabolic pathway. Nature made the way, to resist Roundup in the first place.
> 
> Some of the ignorance here is astounding.


The issue is that the farmers are not spraying the right amount of round up or is spraying too late when the pigweed, which is an amaranth, is too big and doesnt have the potency to kill it. Mutation is not special they either mutate or die. No special mother nature god. It is science. which you dont understand.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Pig weed same thing as lambsquarter? If so we grow it in planter boxes and eat it. I learned what it was when I was searching for weeds that are round up resistant


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Harley Craig said:


> Pig weed same thing as lambsquarter?


No. And hopefully it's organic lambsquarter, otherwise you're likely to end up with horribly disfigured children.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Let's be careful with personal attacks please. Last I knew, this thread was about soybean pollination.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Pig weed and lambsquarter are not the same plant.

Soybeans are pretty self-fertile. They are hard to cross-conventinally because they self-pollinate early in flower development. One of my undergrate advisors at the U. of Ill. was a soybean breeder.

Nectar production is going to vary by variety. It is surprising that soybeans produce any nectar at all being so strongly self-fertile. Changing conditions each year will impact the amount of nectar produced.

As far as yield increases due to honetbees I wonder what the mechanism is? Is there an extra seed per pod? I could see where 'late' developing flowers are not fertilized until after the flower opens benefiting from a pollinator.

A farmer where I keep bees has stated the combine fills up quicker near the bee hives. I have checked fields on numerous occasions and I find very few to no honeybees in the soybean field. However, my hives are close to town, less than 1/2 mile, and the bees have other nectar options. Beeyards located in areas like much of central IL will not have the ability to choose other nectar sources so they may work soybeans harder.

GMO vs organic vs conventinal is a rabbit trail that borders on a religious discussion for some.

Tom


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

jwcarlson said:


> It's pretty safe to say that the only thing we really know about organic food is that it's got a lot more poop on it (on average) than conventionally produced food.
> 
> ABK... he/she honestly believe it with all of their mind, soul, and being. Probably nurtured in a safe space where no one has every really disagreed with them too. There's a pattern developing in his/her(?) posts... they want help, but they don't want to hear anything.


And again with the personal attacks, assumptions, and categorical statements based on no knowledge. How about we see who can do more pull ups? Or who can run a mile faster? But no, surely you will find something wrong with that as a method of quantifying a person's health. You'd rather have a passive aggresive forum posting contest while you're sitting back in your plastic chair and munching on some Doritos.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

ABK said:


> And again with the personal attacks, assumptions, and categorical statements based on no knowledge. How about we see who can do more pull ups? Or who can run a mile faster? But no, surely you will find something wrong with that as a method of quantifying a person's health. You'd rather have a passive aggresive forum posting contest while you're sitting back in your plastic chair and munching on some Doritos.


I'm never going to find out if soybeans will fill up any supers....


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Lol better off starting a new thread.


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## Sunday Farmer (Nov 13, 2013)

ABK said:


> Lol better off starting a new thread.


Why do y'all do that? Playful banter is one thing. Even an argument is cool. Why give Doritos a bad name in all of this?


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Just trying to toot the anti-gmo horn. He started it!


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## adg72484 (Nov 22, 2015)

I am going to be very interested to see what my new hives do this summer next to my family's 115ac of soybeans. This thread has obviously sparked a lot of opinions and maybe very little facts. Id hate to add fuel to a fire but there are many different angles to look at when it comes to GMO, Conventional, ect... I work in the ag industry and I can say that non gmo conventional farmers use more chemical trying to control weeds than that of farmers using GMO. People are entitled to their own beliefs and if they want to go all organic more power to them. The fact is with the population increasing steadily every year, without GMO crops and the ability to make farming adaptable to the conditions and increase production, our food prices would sky rocket and everyone would suffer. We are living in a world where "everything" is bad for us. I think ill take my chances on a GMO seed that is placed in the ground and naturally produced the way the good lord intended it.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

If you work in the ag industry, maybe you can enlighten me and whoever else is interested. My understanding is that GMO seed is modified to be resistant to herbicides and pesticides. And the danger with GMO plants is not so much the fact that tomatoes have genes from ****roaches, but the fact that these tomatoes are sprayed with chemicals (roundup, etc) which are carcinogens, and do not die. So we consume a portion of these chemicals which is affecting our health adversely; maybe not instantly, but in the long run or even in future generations.

What kinds of chemicals are you saying is being applied to organic crops?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

ABK said:


> If you work in the ag industry, maybe you can enlighten me and whoever else is interested. My understanding is that GMO seed is modified to be resistant to herbicides and pesticides. And the danger with GMO plants is not so much the fact that tomatoes have genes from ****roaches, but the fact that these tomatoes are sprayed with chemicals (roundup, etc) which are carcinogens, and do not die. So we consume a portion of these chemicals which is affecting our health adversely; maybe not instantly, but in the long run or even in future generations.
> 
> What kinds of chemicals are you saying is being applied to organic crops?


You are on the wrong forum. BeeSource is a bee keeping forum.
GMO's as they relate to keeping bees?


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

I'd think it applies very similarly. Since GMO plants are resistant to chemicals sprayed on them, the bees will be collecting these chemicals, whether in pollen or nectar.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

He didn't say anything about organic crops. He said conventional crops. Completely different. By the way ABK, I'm a part time farmer....

Here's the problem. People jump on bandwagons. Here's the latest bandwagon.... GMO's.

Conventional crops are sprayed with many different chemicals. One type of GMO's are primarily sprayed with only Roundup. 

ALL these chemicals are toxic to something. 

I'm not defending Monsanto. I despise them, but here's a serious question.

Would you rather vegetation in a crop field be killed with Roundup or Gramoxone? Which do you think is more safe? Do you know what Gramoxone is? Look it up... Seriously. I'll give you a hint. It was used in Vietnam to defoliate the jungle, and it's still used on cropland around the world.

People want it all. They want cheap food, cheap produce, pretty shiny apples with no worms in them, but they all want to jump on the herbicides are evil bandwagon.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

ABK said:


> I'd think it applies very similarly. Since GMO plants are resistant to chemicals sprayed on them, the bees will be collecting these chemicals, whether in pollen or nectar.


You are deep in Science now.
Substantiate your claims.
The guess work is meaningless.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

ABK said:


> I'd think it applies very similarly. Since GMO plants are resistant to chemicals sprayed on them, the bees will be collecting these chemicals, whether in pollen or nectar.


MORE CHEMICALS ARE USED ON CROPS THAT AREN'T GMO's than are used on GMO CROPS. Can you comprehend that?

Sorry to the original poster for getting so off track, but sometimes ignorance needs to be addressed.


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## adg72484 (Nov 22, 2015)

I'm not saying any chemicals are being applied to "organic", which is another topic but I am not going to go there. I am saying Non gmo conventional farmers (no round up traits) use more chemical to control weeds than that of farmers using gmo. May I ask if GMO crops are adversely affecting our health, why has the average life expectancy in the USA continued to increase over the last 40 years? If you are so against GMO crops, are you in total support of $20/gal milk and $20/lb hamburger? Your life is about choices, if you want to go all organic I totally support that. For the general public and our growing population, I totally support GMO and increasing food production while keeping food affordable at the same time.


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

when do you think they spray for weeds before canopy which is when the plants are very small. when the plants go to flower there is no reason to be spraying the field and any roundup will have washed off by rain by then and would be broken down in the soil. this is ludicrous.


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## btt221 (Apr 7, 2016)

SS Auck said:


> when do you think they spray for weeds before canopy which is when the plants are very small. when the plants go to flower there is no reason to be spraying the field and any roundup will have washed off by rain by then and would be broken down in the soil. this is ludicrous.


Not true. Roundup is systemic (through and through the plant). Recently, Quaker Oats tried to claim the same thing regarding their oats but test showed that even after Quaker Oats washed their oats Rounduo was still present. Do you want Roundup in your honey--in your bees wax?


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

btt221 said:


> Not true. Roundup is systemic (through and through the plant). Recently, Quaker Oats tried to claim the same thing regarding their oats but test showed that even after Quaker Oats washed their oats Rounduo was still present. Do you want Roundup in your honey--in your bees wax?


Can you provide a link? I'd be interested in reading that study. Either here or pm. Thanx in advance. Sorry for the continued off topic chatter.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

ABK said:


> He started it!


I think it started on the day you registered or maybe the day after... When you PMed me telling me all my bees were going to die from GMO corn. Do you recall? It was shortly after a couple dozen people took you to task about Ley lines. Then it turns out you didn't even own a bee yet. And because you ignored Ley lines the bears found your bees and gnawed on them! And failure to locate the proper Ley lines caused them to not draw on your plastic foundation. 

All I ever wanted was thoughts and prayers for my bees as they battle the GMO corn and soy here in eastern Iowa.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

btt221 said:


> Not true. Roundup is systemic (through and through the plant). Recently, Quaker Oats tried to claim the same thing regarding their oats but test showed that even after Quaker Oats washed their oats Rounduo was still present. Do you want Roundup in your honey--in your bees wax?


please direct us to the documentation.


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

btt221 said:


> Not true. Roundup is systemic (through and through the plant). Recently, Quaker Oats tried to claim the same thing regarding their oats but test showed that even after Quaker Oats washed their oats Rounduo was still present. Do you want Roundup in your honey--in your bees wax?


link please i found article about General mills but it was showing that they were spraying at harvest. "specifically, Monsanto International published a paper in 2010 touting the application of Roundup to kill crops right before harvest, in order to dry out the crops in advance and produce a more uniform and earlier harvest"

This would make since that the round up would never get a chance to wash off surface. 
Also what concentration are you worried about? how many ppm of any solvent or leachable are you okay with any product you eat from or use on a daily basis? if the answer is none then i have bad news for you. I test for both of those things for my profession and that stuff is everywhere.


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## adg72484 (Nov 22, 2015)

SS Auck said:


> when do you think they spray for weeds before canopy which is when the plants are very small. when the plants go to flower there is no reason to be spraying the field and any roundup will have washed off by rain by then and would be broken down in the soil. this is ludicrous.


Amen. I couldnt agree more. Now when it comes to insecticides sprayed later in the season I think the ag industry has some work for improvement. But I don't think blaming herbicides for drops in honey bee populations is accurate. I think the major chemical company's are well aware that they have work to do with commercial insecticides and I totally support that. I will be making management changes in my own operation to better protect honey bees from late season insecticide treatments. I just get a kick out of these anti-gmo folks thinking life would be great without them.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Guys, this is a pointless topic. Especially because we're arguing with people who have a vested interest in the inorganic/gmo farming. To the guy who made a statement about the same chemical can be used that was used in the vietnam war instead of roundup.. so what? You haven't addressed the 'so what' of your statement, as you should always. Why's that any worse than roundup? Because using that chemical still didn't lead to victory?


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

ABK said:


> Guys, this is a pointless topic. Especially because we're arguing with people who have a vested interest in the inorganic/gmo farming. To the guy who made a statement about the same chemical can be used that was used in the vietnam war instead of roundup.. so what? You haven't addressed the 'so what' of your statement, as you should always. Why's that any worse than roundup? Because using that chemical still didn't lead to victory?


wow!!!!! now we are going to war!!! or chemical war. This is a herbicide. Bees and humans do not share plant dna. I have no vested interest other than science which has to be peer reviewed and not a phish concert. you are the one making outrageous claims and besides JW, we have been civil. I do not think resposible people on this site will allow you to say things that are not true or unsubstantiated and not contest it. It would not be fair to others. They would view the silence as agreement. When in fact we were just trying to take the high road.


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## adg72484 (Nov 22, 2015)

ABK said:


> Guys, this is a pointless topic. Especially because we're arguing with people who have a vested interest in the inorganic/gmo farming. To the guy who made a statement about the same chemical can be used that was used in the vietnam war instead of roundup.. so what? You haven't addressed the 'so what' of your statement, as you should always. Why's that any worse than roundup? Because using that chemical still didn't lead to victory?


ABK,

I see you live in a part of the country with beautiful landscape and scenery. I understand your "views" on gmo. I come from a part of the country that 95% of our ground produces crops and livestock that supply our nation with affordable food. Perhaps you might think a steak comes from the store and not a farm? You have avoided questions about supporting $20/gal milk. Do you think the inner city family's in NYC could afford $20/gal milk? Would it be fair to get rid of GMO's and expect low income families to provide food for their families? Lets increase the poverty in America in lieu of "healthy" non gmo foods. Maybe people will be healthier and live longer not being able to afford to eat. I am not against organic, and if you choose to live that way thats fine. Stop pushing your BS ideas on people living in the real world. In a perfect world your ideas might make sense, but we don't live there. As someone working in Ag and living in an Ag community, I see room for improvement to help the honey bee populations, getting rid of GMO's is not part of that improvement.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

ABK said:


> Guys, this is a pointless topic. Especially because we're arguing with people who have a vested interest in the inorganic/gmo farming.


Pointless because everyone didn't agree with your point of view?
I have no vested interest in "inorganic/gmo farming" only in portraying a situation honestly and completely.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

clyderoad said:


> Pointless because everyone didn't agree with your point of view?
> I have no vested interest in "inorganic/gmo farming" only in portraying a situation honestly and completely.


As stated before... ABK has never been challenged in his or her thinking. Even in previous threads stating "I only want to hear from people who believe in"... Ley lines for example. Some people might find it clever to attempt to shape their world by requesting those who don't agree entirely just keep their traps shut. And again here he/she wants to shut down the discussion because they have spoken from the mountain top, not to be questioned. 

As for the OP, perhaps this Beesource classic is worth reading. 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-296916.html


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

ABK said:


> And again with the personal attacks, assumptions, and categorical statements based on no knowledge. How about we see who can do more pull ups? Or who can run a mile faster? But no, surely you will find something wrong with that as a method of quantifying a person's health. You'd rather have a passive aggresive forum posting contest while you're sitting back in your plastic chair and munching on some Doritos.


This little mini farm is all solar, off grid, and completely organic. It was started on virgin soil. Currently its all sustainable agriculture.Even the organic fertilizer is from here. Currently dryfarming the areas for food.

Did I mention this is a desert? 9- 12" of precip yearly. At 6600 ft. elevation? Im having great success breeding bees that can live here. 

Also my plant breeding experiments have given me common plants that can be grown here. I grow some of the purest organic food on earth. Some of it is native plants, or First Nations varieties.

I do this, and can figure it out, research, and use available tech, to do a life much "greener" than yours. But, one needs to be smart to do the sustainable thing, a mere pipedream to so many of your ilk. More hands on knowledge will separate fact from fantasy for you. Try it.

Insulting people that actually can think, is poor form, as your" high road" self righteous mis-informed pomposity being spewed smells of the Anti business propaganda you seem to be indoctrinated with. Because, some of this, here, produces income, too. 

My high altitude tomatoes have made more contributions to society just by being grown, by a few dozen people, than your activist rants. What do you produce?

P. S. , it's not "passive-agressive" to refrain from telling you what a nalgone you are, just good manners.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Where are you getting the 20$/gallon milk from? Is it a golden cow? I regularly buy milk at 4-5$/gallon from a local farmer. If you think it's going to cost you that much to produce it organically, maybe do a little research and stray from your grandaddy's methods.

And the notion that you farmers out west "grow affordable crops to feed the rest of the country" is plain silly. Myself, my family, and most people I associate with do not consume any corn products, and whatever soy is consumed is organic. And there is a growing population of people who are doing this as well. Statistically speaking, you might be right in that most of the country still consumes your corn and corn-derived products, because even if a person never eats corn itself, high fructose corn syrup and starch are likely part of their daily diet. 

Just recently I've started noticing vegetables labeled as organic being transported from Mexico. That claim needs to be validated, but if it is really organic, then our farmers will need to step up their game to be able to compete with organic Mexican produce.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

ABK you clearly have no intention of discussing bee related topics and are determined to advance your agenda.
Frankly, your ignorance regarding your chosen topic is frightening.

IMO: Talk bees or the moderators should ban you. Enough is enough.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Last chance to stay on this threads topic........


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Two things...

First, I'd love it if someone could get a farmer to take yield data other than something anecdotal regarding soybean yield with regards to honey bees being in the area. Because... 

Second, and I know that this isn't directly related... I have some self fertile plants (berries and such) in my back yard and have seen little to no fruit until I happen to witness, for instance, a bumble bee working the flowers. Then magically fruit appears. It's not a stretch to me to believe that yield could be increased with bee input, but there's also a bunch of other factors like bean size and whatnot.


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

My father in law saw no increase to his soybeans in the field adjacent to my hives. two hives that were very strong. However just up on the other side of soybean field maybe 400 yards the apple trees were much better than before the bees.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Though There's no soy here, the varieties of beans that will permit bees to work them seem to set better. Bees wouldn't bother, if they got no nectar. 

Not all beans flowers will let bees in. But for honey it may be a matter of, how well can bees access the nectar in a certain variety.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

SS Auck said:


> My father in law saw no increase to his soybeans in the field adjacent to my hives. two hives that were very strong. However just up on the other side of soybean field maybe 400 yards the apple trees were much better than before the bees.


How many years running? Apples seem to be an every-other-year bumper crop kind of thing. Not saying the bees didn't help, I'm sure they did. But some of that could be natural eb and flow.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

btt221 said:


> Not true. Roundup is systemic (through and through the plant). Recently, Quaker Oats tried to claim the same thing regarding their oats but test showed that even after Quaker Oats washed their oats Rounduo was still present. Do you want Roundup in your honey--in your bees wax?


Good grief. Roundup is an herbicide (weed killer) and _is not_ systemic (seed treatment). It is a spray (folier) application. As far as I know, there are no _systemic_ herbicides. Roundup is sprayed on GM corn and soy varieties. As SSAuk mentioned, roundup is sprayed early in the season and does not persist for very long on the plants that are sprayed. 

Neoniconoids are pesticides (bug killers). Neoniconoids can be systemic (seed applied) or folier applied (spray) and can be used on any type of plant (GMO or otherwise).


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

Are you saying roundup is ONLY used on corn and soy? If so, how would you explain that quaker oats was found to have glyphosate on their product?


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> How many years running? Apples seem to be an every-other-year bumper crop kind of thing. Not saying the bees didn't help, I'm sure they did. But some of that could be natural eb and flow.


It has been increased for last 5 years in comparison to prior years. But not sure it would be bumper crop material. 

Thanks for the shout out nabber. 

Please provide proof of Quaker Oats issue? Also feel free to answer anyone else's questions that have been posed in your directions for your outlandish comments.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

jwcarlson said:


> Two things...
> 
> First, I'd love it if someone could get a farmer to take yield data other than something anecdotal regarding soybean yield with regards to honey bees being in the area. Becauset.


Zero yeild increase on the monitor as the combine approaches the bee yard placed near by our soy. No bee activity in the field when flowering, no honey or pollen collected. Same with canola, there might be some increase there but only marginal. Too many other relating factors on open pollinated crops


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Soy beans are a self pollinated legume. This means the pollen pollinates within the flower before it opens. Pollination of soybeans by insects show no benefit
But that's a broadly stroked statement. I'm sure there would be some benefit to insects visiting the flowers


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## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

ABK said:


> Are you saying roundup is ONLY used on corn and soy? If so, how would you explain that quaker oats was found to have glyphosate on their product?


You're right here, but you're right for the wrong reason. RoundUp is not a systemic. The levels found on oats were in the 1.3ppb level, which is roughly a thousandth of the legal limits, and considering the organizations complaining about it, I doubt their testing equipment has that sort of precision. Its irrelevant.

There are a handful of grain cropss that they spray with RoundUp (and previously much more toxic herbicides) to cause the entire field to die (and ripen the grain all at once) - it makes harvesting drastically more efficient. I don't know if oats are one of those crops.

RoundUP is about the least toxic pesticide on the planet - its just not something to worry about. Complaints about RoundUp are pretty much a litmus test for people not understanding the basics of toxicology.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

SS Auck said:


> It has been increased for last 5 years in comparison to prior years. But not sure it would be bumper crop material.


:thumbsup:



Ian said:


> Zero yeild increase on the monitor as the combine approaches the bee yard placed near by our soy. No bee activity in the field when flowering, no honey or pollen collected. Same with canola, there might be some increase there but only marginal. Too many other relating factors on open pollinated crops





Ian said:


> Soy beans are a self pollinated legume. This means the pollen pollinates within the flower before it opens. Pollination of soybeans by insects show no benefit
> But that's a broadly stroked statement. I'm sure there would be some benefit to insects visiting the flowers


Thank you, Ian!


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

ABK said:


> Are you saying roundup is ONLY used on corn and soy? If so, how would you explain that quaker oats was found to have glyphosate on their product?


I never said that. Roundup is used on oats as a desiccant; it has nothing to do with GMOs or systemic pesticide. The lawsuit is a class action ($$) about Quaker Oats printing "100% Natural Whole Grain" on their boxes of oatmeal. There is no such thing as GM oats and the seeds are not treated, so the claim that they are 100% natural is true and the suit is frivolous. If they claimed the oatmeal was "organic", then the suit may have merit. Are far as roundup contamination, the levels that they found in the oatmeal was 1.18 ppm which is well below (an order of magnitude) the 30 ppm allowed by the EPA for cereal grains. 

If you follow this reasoning any food product (including organic produce) could not have "100 Natural" printed on the label if any amount of any pesticide or herbicide was detected. If the FDA wanted to step in and not allow the use of this phrase on any product, because all food has some level of contamination, then that would be OK. Maybe they should do this as a feel good measure, but suing Quaker isn't going to do anything and my guess is that the lawsuit will be thrown out.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

ABK, farmers will spray cereal crops with round up near harvest to get uniform drying etc... basically they kill all the plants at the same time to speed up the process. Although I don't really agree with the practice it's pretty common.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

I understand that at that concentration, whether it's 1.3 or 1.18 ppb, that there is Probably no health concern. A lot of interesting information. I wish it was all objective, but I realize it's hard to cite unbiased peer reviewed sources for every single statement made, ( As much as some of the posters here would like it). 

And for those who think roundup doesn't cause cancer and everyone should add it to their pbj sandwich, here's the first result Google spits out on the topic. Huff post page but it links to plenty of available data. Though I realize this is all moot because whatever you read now isn't going to change your mind.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6916968.html


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## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

ABK said:


> I understand that at that concentration, whether it's 1.3 or 1.18 ppb, that there is Probably no health concern. A lot of interesting information. I wish it was all objective, but I realize it's hard to cite unbiased peer reviewed sources for every single statement made, ( As much as some of the posters here would like it).
> 
> And for those who think roundup doesn't cause cancer and everyone should add it to their pbj sandwich, here's the first result Google spits out on the topic. Huff post page but it links to plenty of available data. Though I realize this is all moot because whatever you read now isn't going to change your mind.
> 
> http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6916968.html


The problem is that the huffpost (which is basically an incendiary tabloid at this point) article points to the IARC numbers. The problem with the IARC numbers is that they don't consider dose at all. The IARC believes that owning a car or a fireplace causes cancer. Its nonsense.


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## ABK (May 9, 2016)

I'm glad we have you to debunk all these claims for us


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