# varroa symptoms



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

There are, in my opinion, a variety of symptoms that are a result of varroa infestation. 

Classic – Typically fall/winter. A load of dead bees remain in the hive. Sometimes just following a cold spell. Often blamed on the cold weather. The truth is that the cold just finished the job that the varroa started. A good sized, healthy cluster of bees can survive some serious cold weather. Also, they may be robbed after the fact and the beek is left with the idea that they starved.

Dwindling – Can be caused by a number of problems but varroa may be the cause or at least part of the cause.

Robbing – The neighborhood bees can sense a weak colony. Varroa weaken a colony.

The Wax Moths Got ‘Em –
They Disappeared –
Etc -

I can’t speak for other areas but unless mine collapse in one big bunch…and of course mine never do that ….and I happen to find them immediately after, then I am unlikely to find much evidence of varroa. Even when I put sheets under my screened bottom boards, unless I coat them with oil, I rarely find any dead varroa. I’ve had sheets beneath my sbb now for a couple of months and if you pulled one today you’d be hard pressed to find a mite. It isn’t that my hives don’t have mites; it’s that ‘somebody’ removes their carcasses. All kinds of scavengers are around…ants, roaches, yellow jackets and more. In a deadout that’s been left for a week….in my climate, even in winter, the mites and all evidence of them seem to disappear. 

Opinions?


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Beeman, what you are saying sounds logical, I think that often times people are fooled by what they are seeing and are not getting to the root cause of the problem. I am by far no expert, but varroa are carriers of disease are they not? I think that if we take care of the mite problem and keep the old combs culled out, our hives would fair much better. My wife has horses on our place and we need to give them a worming every so often to kill parasites that feed on them, I don't look at the bees any differently. So I think your analysis is correct with the varroa being a source of many problems in the hive. I use Oxalic sublimation on my hives because it is not suppose to enter the comb and is a terrific mite killer, and I cull out a couple of combs a year to keep down the chemical build up in the brood nest to a minimum. This is the best care that I can give them. Thanks for your clairity and insight......Bill


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

More and more I hear "My hive just died, don't know what happened, oh well". You then ask them what their mite count was and they just look at you with a blank stare. I think the symptoms you list can often be traced back to varroa mites. I don't have the scavenger problem you do with critters eating/hauling off dead mites because I have rooftop hives so I check almost daily to look at the drop rate. I'm amazed how this scourge we call varroa can build up so quickly if you don't stay on top of it. I use SBB's, powdered sugar and drone comb and it seems to be keeping the mite count under control for now anyway.

You make a good point here Dan!


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

A few problems I worry about are immuno-suppression and virus vectoring by varroa. At what mite population is a hive at risk. Potentially a low enough level, 1%?, that you may not notice or worry about. Sometimes I wonder if you treat and go into winter with 0 mites that the damage is already done. In that case you could look at a dead hive and think varroa isn't the cause.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

beemandan said:


> It isn’t that my hives don’t have mites; it’s that ‘somebody’ removes their carcasses. All kinds of scavengers are around…ants, roaches, yellow jackets and more. In a deadout that’s been left for a week….in my climate, even in winter, the mites and all evidence of them seem to disappear.
> 
> Opinions?


With you on that one. I use solid bottom boards, but a friend gave me two screened ones with boards underneath to inspect for mites. I'd remove the inspection tray and see a few mites, but even though I put the tray back without cleaning it, next time I looked, there would sometimes be less, or even no mites at all. Something of a mystery.

Then one day I found ants carrying away the dead mites. So i think, mystery solved.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> Then one day I found ants carrying away the dead mites. So i think, mystery solved.


I've never caught them in the act but always suspected. 
I found a deadout this week that I was sure was the result of varroa (it was in my nontreatment yard.....yeah, I know you are surprised that I have such a thing). It had a sbb and tray underneath. I pulled the tray and there was all kinds of stuff but nary a mite.
Which is what got me to start this thread.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

beemandan said:


> (it was in my nontreatment yard.....yeah, I know you are surprised that I have such a thing).


Dumfounded LOL  .

No, not really . Talking to people privately, a lot of people have a TF hive or two, or apiary, stashed away somewhere. They may not talk about it because of all the online controversy but there's a lot of people working away at this. With all the different brains, and different ways of trying things, my hope is that things will slowly progress in the right direction. We need to get past the point where just keeping the bees alive is seen as the achievement, that should be basic. Having them prosper should be the goal.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Agree with the signs posted by the original poster and would like to add...
Some of the other signs which point to varroa symptoms, bees half emerged, tongue sticking out and dead. 
Small lethargic bees, just emerged, being ignored by the rest of the nurse bees.
Not alot of foraging happening during a flow.

I think if we look at a result of a dead hive, say cold, wax moth damage, heads in the cells and no feed, we need to look at the cause. But more than that, we need to see if the cause was actually a result of some thing else. It might take several steps to determine why the hive died.

Just looking in a hive and seeing the heads in the cells and saying they died without enough stores is not enough. We need to look at the whole picture and what caused this end result. Otherwise we will never learn from our mistakes.

A healthy hive pre varroa (before my time, but not my mentor's time) told me very few hives died because of starvation if enough food was given in the fall. But now that we have weaker bees, they eat more to keep warm, eat more to live. Their ability to use the feed properly and efficiently has been greatly reduced, thus they eat more to accomplish the same job. Now we see beekeepers adding more food to the hive for winter to accomplish the same goal that the oldtimers did....using more to do less. And no forsure it worked...costing more
Our weaker bees have become less efficent converters of their feed stores, prompting us to feed more or leave more reserves costing us more


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

The way the hives use up winter stores is crazy. In the late nineties I started converting from outdoor wintering in doubles to singles, eventually going to all singles. One fall I fed with frame feeders and left them in for winter. Those hives wintered on eight frames of feed and still had enough on first inspection in mid march. 
Two years ago they had nine frames and were the heaviest I ever had singles in the fall. In mid march a lot of them were dead with no feed left. I've never seen hives go through feed like that.
While cleaning dead outs you can usually see if there was a queen failure, nosema, dysentry, or the cluster got caught away from stores. Lately I find myself staring at dead hives and scratching my head with no answers to why.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

honeyshack said:


> Not alot of foraging happening during a flow.


As evidenced by my treatment free yard. Its first season it was at the top of my yards in honey produced/hive. After that first season it has been the lowest...season after season.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

JD's Bees said:


> ... While cleaning dead outs you can usually see if there was a queen failure, nosema, dysentry, or the cluster got caught away from stores. Lately I find myself staring at dead hives and scratching my head with no answers to why.


It is then that one has to back trace the history. It gives good reason to keep fairly detailed records, especially of mite load counts and of signs of nosema. When we start to scratch our heads why, it is then time to look back...there 95% of the time the answers hit us in the face like a ton of bricks.

Edit, i do not think that one year of history on a hive or a yard is sometimes enough to find the reason. Sometimes it takes two to three years for a hive to succum to pressure and die. We do everything we can on a weak hive, propping it up until there is nothing left to do and it dies. Then we wonder why. The thing is, we forget all we did to the hive or the yard which succummed to the death. We remember it was getting better. When we keep histories of yards or hives, and review them, the reason why ends up slapping us in the face in big bold neon lighted letters.
Most hives, i do not think need a detailed history on. But that one or two hives which seem to be below the mark each year, should have a history. Y'all know the hive i am talking about. We all have them. Requeen in the spring cause not just right. Seem to get some nosema and varroa seem to never really get knocked back. Give them a little more feed than the rest. Each time we do something they seem to bounce back for a time. Then when the weather turns, or a dearth happens they seem to get set back again...In cows we call this BVD. A stressor brings out the worst in them. Finally a wet spring or a cold winded winter or feed just out of reach of the cluster and they die.
We do everything by the book but they slowly and painfully find a way to die despite our interference. These are the hives to learn from, the reasons why they died are there...we just have to find the answers.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

Record keeping is the one area that I'm working on improving. The last couple of years I've been recording mite and nosema levels spring and fall. This fall varroa was at 0% and nosema at less than 1/2 million spores. 
My question is in past summers what damage was already done to the winter bees before treatments were applied? Even though mite levels are brought down by september are the hives doomed to crash anyway?
A couple of years ago threshold levels were 3%. This year I followed the Manitoba recommendation of 1%.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I think if we take the hive in the spring and make that our major "get rid of pest and disease" time, fall treatments will just be clean up and we will see more healthy winter survival rates. This will then take care damage over the summer.
Got to go but will write more on this later


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Interesting statement Honeyshack. 

Where I live, there is brood in the hive all year. However for you, there is a period in winter with no brood. (I'm assuming).

If that is the case, I had thought one treatment in fall would have done the job? IE, you get rid of the mites in fall, then there is a broodless period when mites cannot build up, they come out healthy in spring.

I'll be interested in your comments on that, since I'm just guessing, and you are the one in the situation.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Before mites, there was a normal broodless period. After mite arrived, I and other beekeepers noticed that the bees were trying to raise and carry more brood through the winter..It is almost like a survival strategy to stay ahead of the mites. Since mite populations are down in the winter months, the bees seem to be trying to produce as many of themselves that are normal and healthy. And by doing so, stay ahead of any die off caused by the fall bees that were depredated on in the fall, thus staving off a major dieoff and colony collapse mid to late winter. Just an observation. TED


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hmmm... Very interesting. Info like that from experienced beekeepers is why I love this place. Sometimes.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Varroa have a strong life span in the hive. One would think our winters would knock them back in itself but they seem to find warmth in the cluster. The bees start to shut down in September and can start rearing brood as early as Febuary. It all depends on the winter. So the varroa can still thrive. One would also think one treatment would be enough in our climate as well. But varroa seem to bounce back fast especially when they can double the load in a brood cycle. So if they get knocked back to less than a % in say latter part of May during brood rearing, give some time for the mites to get their groove back and then in no time since the bees are in high rearing, they double in three weeks.

So lets say the treatment is applied early April say April 10. 45 days for Apivar would take us to the end of May. The brood rearing is high octane by then. So give the mites a chance to bounce back. The treatment has taken them below 1%. So lets say the mites start to get their groove back in June, early July. End of June they are at .5%. Three weeks, Mid to end of July 1%. Remember brood is in high gear. Mid to late August 2% Mid September honing in on close to 4%...brood damage will start to show. Our winters are long and hard. Any type of stress on the bees decreases the chance of survival. So two treatments are necessary to do our best to ensure survival. Here is a link which i hope helps.

One has to remember...our wintered bees in March/April are old and tired. They need more feed to keep warm, need it close to the brood, and need protection from the wind. There are very few young ones in there. So it is really necessary to have healthy bees going into winter so they can raise enough young to replace them in April. Weak bees can not do this very well.

http://www.capabees.com/main/files/pdf/varroathreshold.pdf

i do not understand alot of graphs, but i do understand the need for health to survive the winter.

Next, as we know the difference between soft and hard chemicals also plays a role too.
Hard chemicals like Apivar, Apistan, Checkmite and others, have a high kill rate on varroa before resistance is seen. It is why following directions is so important. Placing the proper strips per hive box. If we think oh half the treatment is ok, we develope resistance faster. From what i remember from the seminars is, the high kill rate is important so less of the mites survive the treatment so that resistance takes longer to happen.

The softer chemicals like OA, formic, thymol, have a higher mite survival rate. This is ok in the fact that these soft chems seem to not develope resistance because OA and formic are acids. This is a double edge sword. As well, soft treatments seem to have troubles controlling mites in hives with high loads...more of a clean up than an actual go get em treatment.

So, how do we get this to work in our favor? When do we decide on hard or soft chemicals? How do we slow the resistance from happening?

First we need to decide our end goal. So in late March early April when we start to feed we are already looking at honey production and winter survival. So, what is our goal? First to build bees to have for our short one only flow which is July to Mid August. It is strong and fast averaging 180 to 250 lbs per hive. The mite loads have to be low and nosema in check in order to do this. This means, feed and treat. Now here is where one needs to decide on hard or soft mite control.

The hard...45 day control give a hive protection like a shield for that time plus protects during that time against re infestation. Plus the residue helps to slow the invasion.

The soft treatments like formic and OA...no experience yet on thymol...only work with the proper temps and in our spring can sometimes be a hit or miss. Add to that, OA is a one time treatment and formic can be 3-5x every 4-7days...that at best is 35 days no residue. Once done the shield is gone offering the mites a new haven once again. So if the treatment because of temps starts late April or early May even mid may ...canada temps...the mites have had a chance to build from March to treatment, giving the soft treatment a run for their money. More mites seem to survive this treatment so reinfestation and brood damage can happen earlier during late July and early August. By then might as well kiss your hive good-bye for winter survival.

I think for the prairies, this is why a good treatment early in spring has its advantages. It cleans up the lower loads well, give the hive a bit of residue protection which is gone long before the flow happens and reduces the chances of high loads in the fall, therefore reducing winter losses due to mite loads. This is why then we clean up the loads early in the fall...raise the bar on the bees health. Healthy bees mean more feed efficiency...which is paramount in our climates.

So to sum up...a Canadian Beekeeper and that of the Northern States, needs to define their goals early on. Winter prep actually needs to be thought of when working the hives in early spring. Mites need to be taken care of to ensure winter survival and reduce losses and increase feed efficency.


Lastly, I know after this post someone is going to take offense to this and question my thoughts on treating and tell me to get varroa tollerant queens, or varroa resistant queens.
Let me address this. Our queens imported from the states are just that. There is some buckfast, some MH, and a few other strains. Canadian queen rearers are doing their part on raising queens with this in mind. Let me be very clear on this....This is not our silver magic bullet. This is not the lone saviour of the hives. It is however a tool in the IPM strategy. A tool and only that. Maybe in our Grandkids future it might be more, but right now...no.
I know some on here will tell me i am wrong, however, my response is this....Until you come to Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba and winter your hives and produce your honey for three years, you will not understand... Some willl tell me our winters are just a bad as yours. My response will be...No they are not. You might reach our cold temps, but you will not have them as long as we do. How do i know this? I live 2.5 hours north of Winnipeg. I have beekeeper friends who live 1 - 1.5 hours south of Winnipeg. They are seeding three weeks earlier than we are. Their ground is black while ours is still covered in snow. They are two to three weeks ahead on their bee work than we are. and that is 3-3.5hours south of us. Those who keep bees in the mountainous areas in the states, might be different...but as a whole it is a different ball of wax.
Dang that was one heck of a book.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes Wow! 

Well thanks for that Honeyshack, can't fault your logic and great to be able to read such a thorough explanation from a successful beekeeper!


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

not sucessful...still messing up big time, but learing from my mistakes...young in beekeeping years and still very much learning. Most of my understanding come from 16 years of keeping cows and maintaining disease and parasite control while increasing feed efficiency, breed back on time, with a short timed calving season. producing a weaned calf minumum of 50% of the mother's weight by fall (6 months)
livestock is after all livestock...needs are nutrition, health, and the ablility to work for you doing what you need done.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Maybe messing up. But in the end it's the results that count, 180 to 250 lbs per hive IS successful.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I've always admired anyone who has successfully kept bees in the far northern climates. We may have a few unique problems...shb and such...but they pale in comparison.
For bees to be able to survive those brutally cold, long winters there can't be any room for error. When you folks offer advice and opinions....I'm all ears.


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## guyross (Feb 18, 2011)

Beeman I checked out your web page and had to complement you on your bee classes. Are you seeing a increase in enrollment this year? In read this thread I see as a new beekeeper I must have had a varroa problem this summer. Strong hives with lots of bees just weren't producing that much honey.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Guyross,
the only way to know for sure is to sample test. As a new beekeeper who needs to learn, sampling should be something done regularly, and continued into the next year.
One of the simple ways to sample is the 24 hour drop sticky board method. But this has to be done regularly to get a true understanding of what is going on. Should be done early spring, say April, again in May, again before the flow and during the flow at least once. Then should be done when one is thinking of getting ready for winter when there is still time to take action if needed. One needs to be done post treatment as well to show if the treatments actually worked. Remember the soft treatments are usually temp dependant.
The other method, a more accurate one is the alcohol wash method. This test can take as long as 2 hours to complete. The premis is 1/2 cup of bees should = 300 bees..or is it a 1/3...I alway read up before testing to make sure i do it right...refresher so to speak. Any how. A vigorous shake for 8 minutes or let set for 2hours in the wash will lossen the mites from the bees. Yes some bees die, but the test is advantagous. Now shaking does not seem to release all the mites. From experience and talking to the lab guys, mites seem to loosen long after sitting in the solution. I have done double testing at the same time...one jar shaken the other not stirred (lol). Results sometimes vary with the test left to settle showing more mites. 
The nice thing about this test is not having to go and convert the drop to a % of infestation. The wash method gives you a % right off the bat. As well, it is more accurate. Finally, you get a clear picture of what is actually in the hive with the one test. With the drop method, testing needs to be done regularly to see how the mites are progressing.

The other thing one needs to remember is, a hive with mite loads might not die the first year. It could take three and this is when we have troubles truely diagnosing what went wrong. The first year will show a high honey production, but in the second they seem to lag. It is then the beekeeper starts to realize there is a problem. This can be the turning point of the hive in either direction depending on the steps the beekeeper takes. Wait for a time to treat or just requeen could mean failure by year three. The reason is, when we realize there could be a problem, it is usually too late. At this point in year two, it is the viruses that seem to get a foothold. Then add in more mite pressure and a constant battle with nosema, and by the end of year two, no matter what we do, the hive is non productive. By year three, usually dying in the winter or such a small cluster in the spring and they seem unreponsive to any thing we do.
This is why record keeping is important. If it can take three years for a hive to succum, because we treated but not really or used the wrong method of treating depending on the situation, we could see the hive death as a "I do not know what happened"! But if we keep records of this hive or yard, when treated, how, why, mite loads ( with several tests throughout the year), honey production reports (how well they did), if you have to feed extra cause they seem to not put on weight, dearths, weather patterens...drought, flooding, good flowers bad flowering etc....the picture starts to form and when that hive does die, going through the history can pinpoint reason why.

It is like the farmer who calves out a cow. This cow at calving gives all sorts of trouble. Bad milking, bad mothering, mom gets a bit sick, calf gets sick...etc. However after 4-5 months on pasture, the cow comes home with a nice calf. And we forget the trouble she caused us. So next year she calves, gets a little ornery, a little sicker, etc. The cows come home from pasture...beautiful calf. Next calving season, a little more ornery. It's at this point we think was she like this last year? Was it this bad...so we write down what happend. Come the fourth year, she is still on the farm, still giving the farmer grief at calving. This time, we look back in the history and realize this is a bad cow...Ship at weaning. Weaning time comes in. We can either look in the logs and see what she was like early on, or we can look at the calf and say...nice calf, keep the cow. Now let me tell you. After a few years of this, we come to realize logs are important. So now, a cow which gives us problems at calving gets some black words by in her log. Before we wean, we review the logs, and she grows wheels right a way. We do not even look at how the calf did, except when the cheque comes in. See the point i am trying to drive home? We tend to forget. We tend to see the end product and ask why then or forget what got us here and go through it all over again. Rather than look at the history which is either recorded or stored in our brain.

I think this is why I like one of Randy Oliver's methods of recording. It is with stick pins with colored heads on them. Or tacks with colored heads. Out in the yard, if a hive is questionable it gets a pin. If the next inspection it is still questionable or if honey production does not seem like par with the rest, or lagging behind the rest of the hives in that yard it gets a pin. This is a real and tangible reminder the next time we are in our yards that there is a problem here. Pay close attention, somethings is afoot. This puts a tangable reminder to our questionable memory. It is a field log of sorts. Easy and simple.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

Ted, I was reading an article a few weeks ago about extended fall brood rearing. The theory was that the bees protien levels were low due to varroa or nutrient deficiency. Somehow the colony could sense that and would keep producing more brood to try and get a healthy population of winter bees.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Honeyshack,

Well said!


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## guyross (Feb 18, 2011)

Thanks for that detailed reply. I'm going to do an alcohol wash next check. I'm add some SBB next year as well. Thanks


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

When testing, look for the frames with the most uncapped larva. There is where the testing should be done. Make sure not to get the queen. We use lab cups...you know the orange lid pee cups. Easy to handle and light, work well for collecting. However a pint sealer works best for shaking. Take the frame stand it on end on the hive and start at the bottom and go up. The rim of the cup will be on the frame. Then quickly set the frame down and put the lid on. Then once you are done, open and add alcohol. Some have the alcohol in the cup already. I am clumsy and alcohol kills bees if it spills.
Now if you are sampling each hive separate, then you need to do this to all your hives. 
If however you are doing a cross sample, take 15% of your yard, minimum. What you want in your sample pot is, some of the strong hives, some weak and some medium. This will give you a good cross reference to what is going on.
If you decide to treat, then you will need to sample post treatment to see if it worked.

Rubbing alcohol works great as does blue windshield washer fluid rated for -30 degress (at that temp does not really matter if it is C or F  )

here is a pic of a cool tester. The best i could find on the web. Between the two jars there is a screen. The bees stay on one side and the liquid and varroa on the other. Just look at the bottom and count. The lids are solderd together with the screen in there some how
http://www.badbeekeeping.com/beeblog.htm

Scroll down to June 3, 2011's blog


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