# Is there really a Bolling Bee



## wayacoyote

BJ

Look for a post from me tomorrow as I WILL be calling someone. I sent my second letter certified. It has been over 10 business days (which is what my local DA requires before getting involved in certain cases.) 

This is rediculous. For the past 3 weeks, I've kept my phone line open during work hours (not easy since I'm an internet junky and have some weekdays off), and while I'm out of town this week, I have to have a neighbor checking my answering machine daily JUST IN CASE I get a call. 

In my letter, I specified that I wanted a phone call or email AS WELL AS a written letter or fax from him or his "agent". I have gotten none of these.

Earler posts by one or two that have been served are not really convincing me that I shouldn't be suspecting something underhanded going on. There is NO excuse for him to not be contacting people; if he's that busy, his wife, children, or some "agent" should have been brought in to handle the open accounts.

As I'm only a few hours from there, I may have to travel there this week. If that happens, anyone wanting me to look into their situation can email me their names.

Waya


----------



## Sundance

How much $$$$ is involved here?? How was the money sent?? Don't forget the postal service if money was transacted through the mail. They have remarkable authority.


----------



## Barry Digman

Ya might mention to the gentleman that there are 2,626 beekeepers reading a thread about him and some aren't happy about his service.


----------



## wayacoyote

Bjorn,
I spoke to my friend at the DA's office here. He had me call the local sheriff's office there as the local authorities will have to handle it. (additionally, he thought there might already be an investigation going on.)

Tallapoosa County Sheriff's Department
316 Industrial Park Drive
Dadeville, Alabama 36553
256-825-4264

An agent there told me that she would have someone contact him and see what was going on. She was particularly interested if I had a "garanteed date of delivery."

Waya


----------



## ikeepbees

Bjorn,

As mentioned in my previous updates, my packages were prepaid (50%) in December. They were supposed to be available for pickup around the first week of April.

I heard nothing, and was unable to contact Mr. Livings via phone, email, or USPS until April 27. On that day, he did answer the phone and told me that my packages would be ready the weekend of May 7. He called and told my wife on May 6 that the packages would not be ready that weekend. I was able to get through again last Friday (May 13) and he told me that my packages would be ready this Tuesday or Wednesday (May 17-18).

King Bee Apiary from this board has actually received his packages from Bolling Bee.

Mr. Livings does seem like a nice man on the phone. I understand that things happen in this business, and sometimes deliveries will be delayed. He has told me that he is running behind due to the weather and a few personal family matters. I do not understand why customers, especially those that have prepaid, are not kept apprised as to when they might expect their bees.

If and when I talk to him next, or when I receive the packages, I will try to find out what is going on for you and Waya. If you two want to post your names or pm them to me I will try to get that info. I wll also advise him of the affect his lack of communication has on his customers.


----------



## Sundance

I feel bad for you folks. I am grateful that you have shared your experiences so I can steer clear of this company.

Thanks and good luck


----------



## BjornBee

ikeepbees, My info is as follows...
Check paid by "Bjorn Apairies" in the amount of $187.00 and dated 7 Jan 05, for 12 queens including shipping. My real name is Michael Thomas but I do not think it would be listed as such. I am from Lewisberry, Pa. so no confusion exists. And if you make contact, have him call me at 717-938-0444.

Meanwhile I will be drafting my letter to send to the address that wayacoyote listed. Thank you.


----------



## King bee apiary

Just a note for everyone here,Yes I did recieve my four packages of bees back on April 23,so far I'm happy with the service I got,but I also live close by (45 minutes away).His operations is now in Prattville Alabama.I have no idea why he is not returning your calls or mail.I have also gotten the recorded messages too.I do wish you luck on this.Maybe next year if everything goes right I'll be selling queens as well.


----------



## wayacoyote

King Bee, 
Didn't you actually have to go and pick yours up, and on a day that he "advised against it" (due to the rain)? 

You say he's in Prattville now? do you have a physical address for that? It isn't that I don't trust YOU, but I figured that letting the sheriff look into it might make things a little clearer for me. 

Waya


----------



## King bee apiary

yes i picked mine up but had arranged that before hand.And it was Charlie that advised me they would be alittle mean because it was real cool here ,low 50's.But being new I insisted.
I was told he has a bee yard in mobile,prattville area,and Jackson's Gap,but was moving it all to the Prattville area.
Again he seems very busy but can't answer why he hasn't contacted anyone.
I do not know the address of the place,was just given directions of how to get there.
Good luck to all as I still have 6 packages on order for mid summer.


----------



## ikeepbees

Bjorn and everyone,

Mr. Livings called me today. I should be able to pick up at least a portion of my packages tomorrow (May 19). He indicated that the flow in my area has been weaker than anticipated and he is having difficulty shaking enough bees to fill orders.

I told him that there is a general sense of dissatisfaction on this board about the lack of communication from him on the status of orders. He acknowledged the deficiency, and offered the following in explanation (I should emphasize that he was not trying to make excuses, just describing his situation in a matter of fact way).

He is in the beeyard all day, every day. He keeps his phone in his truck, and checks his voice mail every time he gets in, and tries to answer it when it rings. Some of the areas he works have limited cell service. His voice mail fills up several times a day due to the nationwide shortage of bees - everyone is calling all the time looking for bees. That is why most of the time you can't leave voice mail. He cannot currently afford a secretary.

As I mentioned above, he seems like a good man. I told him that rather than register a complaint, I preferred to offer the suggestion that he make an effort to keep his customers better apprised of the situation. I told him that I thought that late deliveries are easier to understand than a failure to communicate the problem to the customer. He said that he would try to get on Beesource this weekend to respond to what has been written.

Bjorn - As he was away from his desk, he did not recall your specific order. I told him you were Bjorn Apiaries in PA, that you ordered queens in January, and that you wanted him to call you at the number you listed above.


----------



## wayacoyote

thanks, Rob,

However, better than getting on BeeSource to reply to messages (which he is entitled to do) I would prefer that he first contact me directly and inform me on the status of My order rather than send out a blanket status to every one. May God bless you all, but I need to know when to expect my own bees, if at all.

Waya


----------



## YBCute

My order of queens was to be here May 5-7. After 1 week late and a garage full of package bees I had to call and cancel the queens and get them locally, At a premium price. He said a check would be sent next week for the full amount of $360.00. This is now May 18 and to date a return hasn't come.I am quite upset with charles


----------



## Fusion_power

I run a business selling tomato plants to the public. Its a very real problem to deal with inventory and to make sure orders are shipped in a timely manner. I've only had problems with 3 orders (out of several hundred) so far this year and they were only 3 days late shipping. I would NEVER put myself in a position to be months late with a shipment.

I guess I have to weigh in on this by saying that the performance demonstrated as per the above posts is totally unacceptable.

I wish you luck with your orders and/or refunds!

Fusion http://www.selectedplants.com/


----------



## stinger

IT IS UNBELIEVABLE HOW SO FOLKS DO BUSINESS. A PHONE CALL ONCE IN A WHILE TO LET YOU KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON IS TOO MUCH TO ASK FOR I GUESS. THEY SURE WANT YOU TO PRE PAY THOUGH DON'T THEY. I GOT MY PACKAGES THOUGH BRUSHY MOUNTAIN WHO GETS THIERS THOUGH WILBANKS. I RECIEVED A LOVELY LETTER IN THE MAIL EXPLAINING MY ONE WEEK DELAY ON MY PACKAGES. DUE TO WEATHER EVERYONE WAS PUSHED BACK A WEEK-- WHICH IS FINE SINCE THEY HAD THE CURTOSY TO LET US KNOW. THANKS FOR LETTING US KNOW ABOUT BOLLING BEE. MAYBE YOU SHOULD REPORT THEM TO THE BETTER BUSINESS BUREAU. THEY DESRVE IT.


----------



## stinger

ANOTHER THING I THOUGHT OF, IF YOU PAID WITH A CREDIT CARD YOU MY BE ABLE TO PUT IN A CLAIM AND GET YOUR MONEY REFUNDED. IT PAYS TO PAY WITH CREDIT CARDS EVEN IF YOU KEEP ONE AROUND WITH A LOW BALANCE JUST FOR THESE KIND OF SITUATIONS. I BOUGHT SOME BOOKS ONLINE LAST YEAR AFTER A MONTH OR TWO OF NOT RECIEVING MY BOOKS AND NUMEROUS FAILED ATTEMPS TO PHONE AND EMAIL THIS COMPANY I CALLED UP MY CREDIT CARD COMPANY AND THE FULL CHARGE WAS RETURNED TO MY ACCOUNT-- NO PAPERWORK EITHER! JUST A THOUGHT.


----------



## ikeepbees

Update: As indicated above, I was supposed to be able to get at least some of my packages today. That didn't happen, nor did I receive a call from Mr. Livings, nor was I able to reach him. My wife stayed home all day so she could get them for me.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL

>ANOTHER THING I THOUGHT OF, IF YOU PAID WITH A CREDIT CARD YOU MY BE ABLE TO PUT IN A CLAIM AND GET YOUR MONEY REFUNDED. 


THAT'S TRUE! BUT ONLY WITHIN 60 DAYS! AFTER THAT THEY WON'T DO A THING FOR YOU!

Sorry guys, I couldn't help myself









"Can you hear me now?"


----------



## Sundance

THANKS BILL........ THE CREDIT CARD OPTION IS A GOOD ONE..... A GOOD ONE...... A GOOD ONE....... A GOOD ONE..


----------



## ikeepbees

Update: Still no word, not even a call to explain what happened yesterday. I still can't reach Mr. Livings.


----------



## Joel

If any part of Bolling bees transactions were done throught the US Mail you may be able, especially as a group, get the USPS to investigate mail fraud. Although I believe there has to be some intent to defraud even a notice of investigation may get some answers. After all the posts and efforts anyone who isn't marching on the place with a pitchfork is just fooling themselves. It is apparrent whatever else is going on this guy is a shister and 1/2. If he has your money and you don't get your product and he doesn't return you money or phone calls then he's stealing! At some point excuses are just that, excuses. Good luck guys!!


----------



## ikeepbees

Joel,

You may be right, I may be crazy...wait that was BILLY Joel...

I really don't think Mr. Livings intends to steal our money - King Bee Apiary has taken delivery of his packages this year, and I bought queens from Bolling Bees last Summer with no problems. My impression is that he is just way behind and is not making an effort to let his customers know what is going on. And that is very frustrating.

Good point regarding the USPS.


----------



## ikeepbees

Update: Finally reached Mr. Livings yesterday evening. I asked what had happened to my delivery the day before. His reply was that he had gone back home that day due to a family matter, and that I might be able to get my packages next week, and that he was sorry for the delay. I told him that at this point, the delay was not the problem, but that my wife had stayed home all day waiting for his call, and that I had made a special trip home to "re-prepare" the yard for the packages. I had also thawed some frames of honey to give to the packages. All for nothing, as he had not even bothered to call and let me know that he had changed his mind once again. He said he would do better next time.


----------



## wjw777

Hey I Keepbees,
May I ask how many packages your getting from Mr Landings? From his reply to you he said he fills large orders first,and how they come in.. How large is your order and maybe we can try by ourselves figure out when we will get ours, with my one package maybe he will enclose a Christmas card LOL just kidding I hope.
Walt


----------



## wayacoyote

WJW
He told me that he fills first-come-first-served. 

Waya


----------



## wayacoyote

YBCute,
Did you include in the letter to the Sheriff that he had garanteed a delivery date that wasn't met? The agent that I talked to was really interested to know what garantees he wasn't meeting.

Waya


----------



## YBCute

First come first served? I ordered in 2004 during a snow storm. Should I have done it in 2003?


----------



## ikeepbees

WJW,

I only ordered 10 packages, but can usually count on getting 40-50 pounds of honey per package if I get them on time. 400-500 pounds of honey isn't much to some people, but for me it's significant.


----------



## BjornBee

My check was dated 7 Jan 05. If he's not up to that date yet I do not know what to think.

He did call last week (thus delaying my letter to the sheriff as I must be nuts for thinking good thoughts on this never ending saga) after hearing I had been trying to contact him (thank you ikeepbees)
Unfortunately he left a message saying that he is overwhelmed and doing the best he can. He did not give any positive assurances as to any timeframe. I have been trying to return his phone call but have been unable. The answering service states that you can not leave a message at this time. So I keep entering the phone number hoping that he actually sees it.

At this point I will be going to Europe for two weeks soon and I can't even let him know that if I do not recieve them soon they may be sitting at the post office for a long time. Wouldn't that be ironic after all this time. Coming home to a dead box of queens.....

I did not need them for honey but was doing some testing and side by side setups to take a look at different breeds. Thats been thrown out the window since 3 out of 5 breeders did not keep the dates they confirmed. I was hoping to start them all at the same time. At this point I have sold off all my NWC, and have blended the rest into my operation. Maybe next year will be better.....


----------



## wjw777

I keepbees
Again thanks for the reply, in your email you said he fills orders according to when they come in but also he picks the large orders first ,is that correct? and if it is and your waiting for 10 packages and Bejornbee is waiting for a large number of queens, my one package will be coming in December, and that would be find down south but here in Ohio and with Bejornbee in Pa. that doesnt look good, I really think he bit off more than he can chew this year , and i still feel sorry for him,but as the days drag on im strarting to feel sorry for myself too. I just want my one little ole package of caucasian bees. LOL Walt


----------



## wayacoyote

I hope he isn't up to January shipping yet as my check cleared in mid-December. 

Bjorn, I had to give a key to my neighbor so she could check my phone messages incase Livings called while I was away. Yeah, that is rediculous and a waste of my neighbor's time since he didn't call. 

I don't know how long Livings has had the company. He served me well last year. but from the posts here, it Does seem as though he has delt with a lot of variables this year, some uncontroled and some of his own (ie. moving hives). It it was me, I think I would have been more cautious in my commitments until I had things settled in. Seems to me that a business would do better if it aimed low and satisfied a decent few customers than to aim too high and disappoint a lot. 

Waya <sigh>


----------



## ikeepbees

Bjorn: If for some reason I hear from him this week I will tell him to talk to you before shipping as you may be out of town.

WJW asked: "in your email you said he fills orders according to when they come in but also he picks the large orders first ,is that correct?"

It is correct in the sense that he told me that; what he is actually doing I am unable to determine.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL

>I just want my one little ole package of caucasian bees. LOL Walt 

Now the shoe is on the other foot. You now know how I felt when I didn't get my cordovans from Mc#&*$! (and you did)


----------



## peggjam

I guess if I was you all and I still wanted bees I would quickly find another source, and then try to get your money back. There are hard luck stories, biting off more than you can chew, and then outright thieft, and you folks are the victems of the latter. A good business would contact you, explain the problem and offer to refund your money, not put you off with excuses.

peggjam


----------



## wjw777

Hey Bullseye,
I waited for the cordovans like you did from Mc. but once you mail the money all you can do is sit home and wait and wait and wait , like you did and also myself.There are just somethings beyond our control and getting packages seem to be one of them.Im not complaining ,just waiting LOL and I guess I'll continue to wait
Walt


----------



## wjw777

Hey Bullseye ,
what ever happened ,did you finaliy get them?? Just wondering
Walt


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL

>what ever happened ,did you finaliy get them?? 

Nope. Ordered my packages Jan 2 and they never came. Promise after promise, I had to initiate all calls. The last word was that they would be shipped, of course I had heard that multipal times, but he never came through.

I eventuly ordered queens from Heitkems and requeened a couple of swarms I picked up. Unfortunatly they were not very tolerant and died out the second year (winter).


----------



## magnet-man

Bullseye Bill, I feel lucky. I got my cordovan queens from McCary. He runs about 3,000 hives and is 80 years plus old which is amazing. He doesn't notify when a promised shipment date is missed and He does misses a lot of those. 

Next year I may try Pendell Apiaries - (530) 963-3062 - Northern California. Has anyone purchased from Pendell?


----------



## ikeepbees

Well.......talked to Mr. Livings this morning (I initiated the call), and my packages won't be ready this week either. Maybe the end of next week, and maybe even then I won't get all of them. Bjorn, I was so disgusted that I forgot to tell him you were going out of town.

If they do arrive next week, that will be 2 months late.


----------



## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

Sorry to hear about your bee problems. It's a hard fact to learn about being in the bee business, but the bee is the smallest part of the business.

It's a little late now, but I would bail out of Bolling Bee and get your bees/queens somewhere, anywhere else. 

I know that Bolling has been hyped as a small cell supplier. I've tried their bees before the outfit was sold. At that time, Bolling was a very small outfit at about 300 hives. With that small an operation, they don't have much capacity. A few miscalculations and unfortunate circumstances doesn't leave any extra capacity or options for recovery.

I also know that it's the cell size and not the bee that makes the difference. All bees make small cell size comb. And they all make about the same amount of it. So forget the special small cell bee. All bees will do well on small cell comb. So get the best bee for all those other characteristics. Put them on small cell and go for it. Choose your supplier for their reliability and flexibility, cost, etc.

see http://bwrangler.litarium.com/implications/

I just hope you guys can get your money back.

It would be interesting to conduct a poll concerning the various bee suppliers. If enough people would respond, it could be very valuable. But lots of people would have to respond to make it valid.

Regards
Dennis
My Bolling bee wasn't any different than any other bee.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL

>It would be interesting to conduct a poll concerning the various bee suppliers. If enough people would respond, it could be very valuable. But lots of people would have to respond to make it valid.

If you build it, I will respond. I bet all one hundred of us would.

Perhaps a seperate thread to get input on the scope of questions would be appropiate?


----------



## wayacoyote

YBC,
I don't know if he is moving the company headquarters or just some outyards where bees are raised and can be picked up...

I've already called... was the one that posted the contact info that you used. 

Charles called to say my refund was mailed today. Perhaps yours will be along soon as well.

So, I got compliments for ordering my bees early. I really wanted to rebuild my apiary. I'm still at what I started with despite my thoughfulness. 

Waya


----------



## ikeepbees

"It's a little late now, but I would bail out of Bolling Bee and get your bees/queens somewhere, anywhere else"

Agreed, Dennis. I must admit I waited too long to pull the trigger - now it really is too late. May as well wait until next year. But I will definitely get them somewhere, anywhere else!

"I know that Bolling has been hyped as a small cell supplier."

I just ordered from Bolling because they were close - I figured it would be easy to just drive up and get the bees when they were ready, rather than deal with getting them shipped.

"I also know that it's the cell size and not the bee that makes the difference. All bees make small cell size comb. And they all make about the same amount of it. So forget the special small cell bee."

This point is well taken and encouraging!


----------



## wayacoyote

"I also know that it's the cell size and not the bee that makes the difference. All bees make small cell size comb. And they all make about the same amount of it. So forget the special small cell bee."


Dennis,
don't you use foundationless and TB hives? How well will "large cell bees" draw out 4.9mm foundation? I saw a huge difference between the two "bee sizes" in their ability to draw out 4.9mm well.

Waya


----------



## peggjam

The Italian package bees that I bought this year and installed on smallcell foundation drew out anywheres from 5.1 to 5.6mm cells on their first try. I am planning on removing those frames and making them draw again until they are at least 4.9mm. It may take awhile.

peggjam


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL

>Yes, Someone has to make a complaint page so EVERYONE knows who the problem suppliers are.

An interesting idea, but I doubt that Barry would go for it.

My list of companies not to do business with starts with Brand New.  Those SOB's still haven't returned my money from last years fiasco.

Purvis might end up on my list too, right behind McCary.


----------



## Michael Bush

>I saw a huge difference between the two "bee sizes" in their ability to draw out 4.9mm well.

I've also seen a differences in what regreesed bees an unregressed bees draw.

This is most evident when I put them on 4.9mm plastic since the unregressed bees refuse to draw it at all and the regressed bees seem quite content with it. But on natural sized comb I see a difference in the size regressed bees draw compared to unregressed. But ALL of them draw smaller cells than 5.4mm.


----------



## peggjam

My measurement was based on a piece of burr comb built from the bottom of the queen cage when I removed it.

peggjam


----------



## Barry Digman

> It's a hard fact to learn about being in the bee business, but the bee is the smallest part of the business.


Excellent.

Anyone considering going into business needs to write this out on a piece of duct tape and wear it on their forehead for a month.

How many times have folks seen a very good plumber, carpenter, mechanic, etc. quit their job and go into business for themselves only to file bankruptcy a year later? And how many know of a company that provides only average quality (or below average quality)goods or services that is doing very well financially? Business consultants are apt to blame the high rate of new business failures on a lack of capitalization, when in many of those cases it was a lack of business skills. The moment you shift from "highly skilled and respected beekeeper" to "businessperson" everything changes dramatically. The bees, or the leaking pipe or kitchen remodel, become secondary to the survival and management of the business. It's a rare person who can do both successfully. 

As for Bolling Bee, I sympathize with the guy just based on what's been reported here. I get the sense that he's been overwhelmed by the nasty and unbelievably time-consuming details that are critical to operating successfully even though he may know bees very well. The symptoms appear to be classic for an impending meltdown on one hand, and on the other hand provide an opportunity for someone to come in and manage a small-scale turnaround that utilizes a combination of backroom management skills with the existing owner's beekeeping skills.

In any event if anyone is considering a commercial operation this story is worth following.


----------



## wayacoyote

Well said, Coyote.

Waya


----------



## jalal

I was thinking about doing some small time stuff just more for a "social service" to beekeepers on the board.

IE: quality queens on a budget and fair prices on shipping, not handling.


----------



## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

I'm sure open to more observations about natural comb drawing.

I know that small cell size comb is well within the natural range of cell sizes that all honeybees draw out. And I think that it's possible to select bees that would preferentially draw out more of the smaller sizes as comb drawing is genetically determined.

Some researchers have indbred bees using AI that couldn't draw out any comb structure at all.

Some Thoughts
Dennis


----------



## BWrangler

Hi Again,

>As for Bolling Bee, I sympathize with the guy just based on what's been reported here. I get the sense that he's been overwhelmed by the nasty and unbelievably time-consuming details that are critical to operating successfully even though he may know bees very well. The symptoms appear to be classic for an impending meltdown .....

If anyone is thinking of going into commercial beekeeping, a few more pieces of duct tape could come in handy.

A commercial beekeeper doesn't work the bees, they work him! And since the bees don't sleep, neither does the beekeeper.

A beekeeper never works or calculates his hourly wage, unless he understands negative scientific notation.

A beekeeper is never home when he needs to be. And when he's there, he may as well be gone, as he'll be to tired to do anything meaningful.

Make sure your spouse has a good job so you can have some money to pay for your beekeeping expenses.

Always include the cost of a divorce in your business plan, unless your spouse is a crazy as you are.

:>))))

I agree with the meltdown. Knowing when to pull the plug is the one of the hardest things for most beekeepers to do. So much of the business is run on hope.

Honey producers have a broader range of hope. They can hope for a fall flow, or higher winter prices or more production or....next year. But that range, for package bee and queen producers, is really narrow.

I, too, have a good deal of sympathy for a honest guy just running on hope.

Regards
Dennis


----------



## wjw777

Hey,
Bwrangler, like what you say, how true. I dont think many beekeepers believe they will become rich . Its a passion we have for the insect known as the honeybee.I met some great people who have bees and its the cement that bonds us together. I wish Mr. Livings well with his company known as Bolling Bees. I think once he gets going and puts his ducks in a roll he will be find. We dont need more beekeepers going out of business. Thats why im still going to wait for my package from him. Talking to him, I still like the guy and think hes trying his best. Walt


----------



## Butterchurn

In conversations I've had with Charles, I find him to be likable and honest. I enjoyed the three conversations we had in late winter.

I think he is overwelmed, also. I will still support him. Hopefully he will get things going and have a better future.

Ron


----------



## wayacoyote

I received my refund in total today, along with a kind appology.

Waya


----------



## AlpineJean

Is there anyone of "us" in the area where he has moved his business? Maybe somebody who is relatively close by could offer to go over and either help him in the field or maybe simply look at his orders, put them in order , and return some calls for him.
In one of the posts the person said that his excuse was he had been called home for family matters-perhaps he was married to a Lucille and she picked a fine time to leave him... we can't know all of his situation.

I'd go and help but I'm a tad too far away...


----------



## loggermike

>Always include the cost of a divorce in your business plan, unless your spouse is a crazy as you are.
Lol that would be funny if there wasnt so much truth in it.
A piece of business advice for those thinking about it:If your OUTgo exceeds your INcome,your OVERhead will be your DOWNfall!


----------



## BjornBee

Does anyone know this owner from Bolling Bee? Can anyone get a message to him? Can anyone have him call me?

I have tried many times. I have not been able to speak to anyone directly and so far have only been able to "enter a phone number" when calling his number. The website and address are a waste. I will be leaving for europe and can not even let him know.

After listening to others on this site say that they will deal with him and will stand behind him and understand his problems, I tried to be understanding.....I now say I am a fool. I have tried my best to be patient and understanding. As a breeder and supplier myself I can understand a certain amount of problems. No more.

I still to this day have not spoke directly with anyone. For those who have recieved refunds, how did you get it. Letters, certified mail, calling the sheriff, ?

To think that my vacation will be somewhat diminished due to thinking about "if queens are sitting on my porch dying in the heat" really is the icing on the cake. I wanted to give the guy the benefit of the doubt and ask that he ship when I get back in town. Now I can not even do this. I am fool and anyone dealing with this outfit is a fool.


I want my money back. Whats the way to do this?


----------



## BjornBee

The number I have been calling is 334-437-2429. Does anyone have another number or cell? Thank you.


----------



## BjornBee

Also, what is the correct mailing address to send certified/reciept requested mail? Thank you.


----------



## wayacoyote

Bjorn,
I am sure that calling the sheriff was the only way I was able to make any progress. If I'm not mistaken, you had a committed delivery date. 

Bolling Bee Farms, 622 Smith Mountain Dr., Jackson's Gap, AL 36861

This is what was Stamped on my envelope and what was on the letter head. Of course he could be using an old stamp and letter head. 

I think, considering your situation, the agreement you had, and the sherriff's current involvement, you might considering giving him/ her a call. The person I spoke to said that they would have a deputy drive out and look into it for me. If you mention that your expected delivery date has lapsed, they'll be even more interested.

Things as they seem to be without the contact, I'm afraid he Will actually ship to You and you'll loose out because the bees will die as you discribed. Then you'll be in a pickle trying to settle that issue.

just my 2 cents. 

Waya

(As per the letter I received, I'm sure Charles Livings IS spending as much time in the beeyard as he can. But if he were to call just one customer per day during his lunch break, he could have gotten to most all of us by now.)


----------



## Jim Fischer

Beekeepers don't put the law on another beekeeper.

I don't care WHAT your excuse, calling the sheriff
was completely over the top.

First of all, there was no crime here.
This is a purely civil matter.

If any crime could be alleged, it would be mail
fraud, which is the jurisdiction of the postal
inspectors, not a county sheriff.

If I was Bolling Bee, I would laugh my head off
at your "complaint", and suggest that the sheriff
contact YOUR local sheriff, and ask that they give
YOU a talking to about "filing a frivolous complaint".

Yes, you are owed a refund, but this is no excuse
to fly off the handle over a few hundred dollars
at most. The proper forum for such an issue
would be small claims court, but even that is
in very poor taste, something that is highly
likely to result in no one wanting to ship you
anything, anytime, anywhere, ever again.

Beekeeping is a very tiny little "world".
Everyone who is anyone knows everyone else who
is anyone.


----------



## BjornBee

Jim, How about shipping me some a few hundred dollars worth of goods and waiting to see if one day I'll get around to sending you a check. After all, its a little world and we all know each other, right?

If its such a small world and everyone know each other, than all the more reason that this man should make an effort to contact me cocerning an order that had a ship date more than a month ago.

I do not think advertising, collecting money, and not sending a product, and than not returning calls from customers is "frivoluos", in any way shape or form.

And thanks for the heads up as to what type individual you are, how you run your company, and what your expectations are. I am sure I won't be ordering any of your products anytime soon.

I am not going to file a claim in small claims court. Be real. My time is worth more and its principle more than money. If a sheriff is one way to get my money back, than so be it. I have not been shown one ounce of respect, I have been ignored as a customer, and as far as I am concerned owe him nothing. Thats exactly how he feels for me since I can not contact him and he will not return calls.

JF, you may be correct in details. And I am sure that made you feel good saying all that stuff. Unfortunately comments like that to a group of very upset beekeepers who have been ripped off is really off base. And as a business person yourself I would think that your reputation and business interests would dictate "comments better off not said" approach on your part.

I do find it amazing that regardless of what happens between beekeepers you think you should never call the law? Is this a lack of intelligence, general ignorance, or just personal view? I am sure that there are less than honest individuals in beekeeping as with any other group of people. I find general statements such as this usually made with little thought involved.

I will be calling the sheriff as well. And if he never ships to me again, I will not be at a loss. A loss from nothong is still nothing.


----------



## Curry

I thought about selling packages this year, but as it turned out, I didn't end up with the number of hives and strength of hives needed.

Don't you think this guy is experiencing the same problems that the rest of the country is? That's why so many people want bees- they're just in short supply.

This year, you'd better be grateful IF you got packages or queens. He'll make it right to you if he can't end up supplying you- just be patient.

I own a home business, but fortunately I'm not depending on nature to make money. If I ever DO sell packages... I've learned from this post to be selective to whom I sell them to.


----------



## Robert Hawkins

Curry, I with ya;

I might start only selling honey to customers without computers. Both sides of this arguement have good points to argue and neither is entirely wrong. But WOW. How can we stop the snowball from rolling after it should be settled?

Hawk


----------



## Jim Fischer

Not to continue to thrash the horse long after it is
no longer among the living, but BjornBee is a big boy,
and should be held to account for his "rabid dog" approach
to this unfortunate situation.

Also, when you "call me out" by name, you get a reply.
Astute people don't try this more than once.









> Jim, How about shipping me some a few hundred dollars worth of goods and 
> waiting to see if one day I'll get around to sending you a check. After 
> all, its a little world and we all know each other, right?

Yes, it is, and yes, I am certain that you would pay your bill.

> If its such a small world and everyone know each other, than all the more 
> reason that this man should make an effort to contact me cocerning an order 
> that had a ship date more than a month ago.

Many reasons (excuses) have been offered, so I don't need to add to
the list. Yes, you have every right to be angry, but your options
do not include expecting the police to act on your behalf when no
crime has been committed, moreso when you know that refunds are being
made.

> I do not think advertising, collecting money, and not sending a product, 
> and than not returning calls from customers is "frivoluos", in any way 
> shape or form.

What I described as "frivolous" was making a complaint to a police officer
when the matter is clearly a "civil matter", rather than a criminal one.
Many of my closest buddies are cops, park rangers, and other folks who
have to carry a Glock to get a paycheck. Their jobs suck. Their lives suck.
They don't need extra crap "to do" when no one is in danger and no
property is at risk. What they need is a smile, and maybe even a "thank you"
from us civilians now and then.

> And thanks for the heads up as to what type individual you are, 

Yes, I am one who would not "call the cops" on another beekeeper, 
moreso when:

a) Others had clearly informed me of his plight/problems

2) Informed me that refunds were being made

III) The vendor in question had posted an explanation himself to 
this very discussion list.


> how you run your company, 

Which one? Oh, you mean Bee-Quick. Well, here's how I run it - we make
stuff, we sell it, and then every penny of profit goes to bee research.
Not a dime goes into my pocket. Say what you'd like, but I consider
it about the most ethical set of practices possible. So don't try to 
tell me about "how to run a company" until you start doing something 
similar yourself.

> and what your expectations are. 

My "expectations" would be that someone in your shoes would take
the matter to either the credit card company, or to small claims 
court. Or maybe just wait a bit, as the refunds are clearly 
being made.

> I am sure I won't be ordering any of your products anytime soon.

I'm not sure anyone in the bee supply business who hears of your
actions would ever want to accept any orders from you, given your 
approach to problem-resolution. Therefore, I question if you could 
order anything at all from anyone.









> I am not going to file a claim in small claims court. Be real. 

Why not? It is the forum designed to handle such issues.
The other alternative was to do a charge-back on the credit
card, which takes all of ONE phone call. Too busy to make
ONE lousy phone call? YOU get real.

> My time is worth more and its principle more than money. 

The time required to file, show up, and win in small claims
court would be much less than the time you have spent typing
the 38 messages you posted to BeeSource in May alone. Clearly, 
your time, if so valuable, would not be spent in mere idle 
conversation on some random website.









The time required to get a charge-back from the credit card
company would be much, much less.

> If a sheriff is one way to get my money back, than so be it. 

Wait a moment, didn't you just say that it was "principle more
than money"?









In many jurisdictions, the cops have better things to do, and 
take a very dim view of civilians trying to use them as personal
messengers of "collection agencies". Be advised.

> I have not been shown one ounce of respect, I have been ignored 
> as a customer, and as far as I am concerned owe him nothing. 

You are correct on all points.
I simply disagree with your tactics.

> JF, you may be correct in details. 

Invariably so.









> And I am sure that made you feel good saying all that stuff. 

No, it did nothing for me - this exact sort of thing happens 
every few years, and each time, it is a major mess, often much 
more of a mess than in this case. Sometimes, no one gets any 
bees at all. Clearly, Bolling simply bit off more than they 
could chew, which is NOT cause for getting law enforcement involved.

> Unfortunately comments like that to a group of very upset 
> beekeepers who have been ripped off is really off base. 

No one has been "ripped off". Clearly, Bolling Bee intends to
make good on every order, through refunds or whatever. Remaining
angry is counter-productive. Seeking revenge is simply "evil"
under the circumstances - kicking a man when he is down, eh?

> And as a business person yourself I would think that your 
> reputation 

I >>>HAVE<<< a reputation?









Nonsense, I'm just the third beekeeper from the left, nothing more. 
Few people even know what I look like, so you just never know if I 
might be sitting next to you at a beekeeper meeting. 

> and business interests would dictate "comments better off not said" 
> approach on your part.

Counseling a bit of "turn the other cheek" is never "better off not
said". Yes, I realize that the last fellow to make a regular habit
of doing this got nailed to a tree for his trouble, but I persist,
regardless. (WWJDFAKB? "What would Jesus Do... For a Klondike Bar?")

> I do find it amazing that regardless of what happens between beekeepers 
> you think you should never call the law? 

Correct. A community can police itself. While it might take longer 
than you'd like to get your money back, you have no rational reason
at this point to feel that there is any risk of not getting a full
refund.

> Is this a lack of intelligence, general ignorance, or just personal view? 

None of the above. It is a basic truth. Not that you'd want to have anything
more to do with him, but I am sure that Bolling Bee feels very bad, and would
offer not only refunds, but priority on the next go-round, or perhaps ever free 
queens next spring.

> I am sure that there are less than honest individuals in beekeeping as with any 
> other group of people. 

Less than you'd think - the demographic simply does not include many actual
criminals. Those willing to undertake beekeeping certainly are not inclined
to go after "easy money for nothing" schemes. They are used to hard, hot work
to make even a small profit.

> I will be calling the sheriff as well. 

Your other options are better ones.

> And if he never ships to me again, I will not be at a loss. 
> A loss from nothong is still nothing.

But will ANYONE want you as a customer ever again, once the story 
of how you acted gets around? That's the chance you take.


----------



## BjornBee

Business must be slow.


----------



## Joel

It really is unfortunate to have your season ruined by a supplier who fails to meet his obligations. It is really hard to be understanding how someone in Bolling Bee's situation could not send out a group e-mail and make phone calls to customers to let them know what is going on. Above all else this is pretty unforgivable. I suspect this would make me pretty militant. At this point the jig is up and it seems it is just about getting your money back which the guy seems to be at least starting to do. I wouldn't want any queens or bees from this guy at this point, that ship has sailed. It has been an incredibly bad year for many suppliers due to pest, weather and high demands put on by the industry, I don't thing it has had much efrfect on the lines of commnication. Bjorn is right about small claims court, the time and money spent to sue someone in another state is not worth it, and then try to collect. Jim is right, for their to be a crime there has to be intent or at least culpablility on the part of the owner which just doesn't appear to exist. At any rate, it will take a long time for this man to regain his reputation and rebuild his business if at all. If he folds and goes into bankruptcy it's all over but the crying. I wouldn't let a few hundred dollars ruin my vacation to Europe. As a businessman I would have found another supplier long ago and written this guy off. We always make twice the nucs we have ordered just to prevent this type of situation. As Mr. Eastwood so aptly stated, " A man's got to know his limitations" I guess the owner is finding this out the hard way! Good Luck to all who ordered!!


----------



## Robert Hawkins

Snowball still rolling.


----------



## TwT

WOOOW, I bet Jim Fischer's hands hurt after that one BAHAHAHAHA!!! I hate to hear anyone having trouble, but from the ones I have talked to, about everyone is having a bad year raising queens and package bee's, guest the guy at bolling bee just took more orders than he can supply on a bad year, maybe if it was a good year he could have done a better job, who knows, but if he's sending money back to people thats good but for the people in the south (main flow being about over) its was just a waist of time because of the lack of communication, he should have communicated the position he was in, I understand the anger but there's nothing to do about it now but get your money back and buy from a different supplier next year. I hate it for the people that this has happened to but live and learn, it could happen to another supplier next year...Just my 2 cents!!


----------



## Dick Allen

Jim, Jim, Jim......It's hard to believe anyone would spend as much time in front of their computer for all that, but I guess seeing is believing.....

My poor neck is going to get whip-lash from all the shaking back and forth it's doing









(Now I think I'll waste a bit more of my time with those entertaining little graemlins)


----------



## YBCute

If I had did what was recommenden and file the case as mail fraud , now what? I believe someone said to do this first. There would be no rebuilding the company and I bet everything would be frozen. No, the sheriff didn't have to do anything but it was the less of 2 evils. Well, he went out of his way to probably explain to bollings he best do something before this gets serious.Bollings knew what they were doing long ago and still kept taking orders when I believe they knew they couldn't deliver on time.They could have called and I wouldn't have had to drive to pick up all those packages if no queens were coming on time. I did learn one thing from all this. CREDIT CARDS and no total payments w/o a confirmed date in writting.I am not the guilty party here. I paid the required total money, had a delivery date and it came and went w/o a call. All this trouble isn't worth a 10 cent call from them????


----------



## Sundance

The behavior of this bee supplier indeed does border on criminal and fraudulant.

I understand, and agree with Jim's point...... but..... this guy went beyond, way beyond, what could be considered as "busy" and "backed up".

It seems these refund offers are only resulting from the "heat" applied by those whose money he had been sitting on for months.

I probably would not of gotten the sheriff involved, not because the guy is a "beekeeper", but their ineffectivness for the most part. Credit card reversal is easy, effective (I love it when their funds are yanked from their bank account without warning).

Sympathy for this operation expired long ago. And just because someone calls themselves a "beekeeper" does not absolve them from culpability.


----------



## WG Bee Farm

As a small queen rearer and nuc supplier myself in NC. I can sympathize and even feel sorry for Bolling. (I AM NOT MAKING EXCUSES FOR HIM). I do understand the multitude of problems that can suddenly manifest themselves & put the world out of control. This is agriculture and has all the pitfalls of farming. I have turned down more orders for queens & nucs than I could ever imagined; because I knew I could not produce to the demand that is out there. With the demand this year I went to telling people up front that it could take up to 4 weeks.I am just now getting to 2 weeks behind on queens and stopped nucs awhile back. 
I tried to keep everyone informed of dates, but even then I found some that would not wait an extra 3 days because the queens had not started laying, yet. Queen producers should never send out queens that are not actively laying. And, no one should hold onto another mans money if he has been requested to return it.(Poor business)
Frank


----------



## BjornBee

I shook my head too. I just love it when someone breaks down every sentence to word level.

Thanks jim for having the positive nature to say thay you would trust me if you were to send orders. I too am very trusting. Pre-paying 6 months ago shows that. Unfortunately thats only part one. Part two involves a past deadline, no return phones calls, certified letters, e-mail messages, unable to leave messages because of "full" message box, and absolutely no contact with a supplier. To find out that there are numerous other individuals out there in the same boat who have tried unsuccessful to make contact adds to the out of the ordinary circumstances that it has become. The only ones I have heard that have had contact or recieved refunds are those calling the sherrif and going "over the line" as you say. Good for them. You say it is "clear" that all will recieve refunds, etc. Based on what? I have not been offered a refund, let alone a courtesy call from him.

In ordering from a supplier, there are no rules of "proper" as you suggest. My business and my family take precedence. And I'll do whatever it takes and use any resource available to do so in protecting them. Did I extend proper courtesy to Hardemans, Strachans, and others who have notified me as a valued customer of delays, you bet! I understand the nature of the business. But this is not normal in no attempt to contact at all.

I do not mix or misunderstand between my purchasing something and protecting my interests, and those of what I give to my customers. Maybe you should seperate them.

My business dictates my customers needs are first. As example this season, the following has happened....

1)I have delayed several customers one week due to queen rearing problems. I notified and all were understanding.

2)Another beekeeper did not recieve the queens he ordered. But instead of delaying his beekeeper adventure, I gave hive other queens with the nucs. I will mail at my expense the correct queens when available and he can replace or split and be better off with additional hives. He is happy and understands.

3) I gave away numerous nuc boxes with orders for beekeepers who had to wait, or were inconvenienced in some manner.

4) I discounted nucs that had less than full frames of drawn comb with bees. Its not a take what you get business, its pay for what you get.

I could go on with others ways of making customers happy. And yes my operation is not perfect. But I go out of my way to do the best. And that includes making phone calls and returning e-mails. For you to suggest that any customer would not deal with my business in the future due to my sueing or having a hard approach with a supplier because of some "brotherhood" line was crossed is bunk. People order for quality product and service. I do not think they will stay away due to a phone call to a sheriff's office, from a supplier that has every opportunity to give a courtesy call, and fails to do that.

If beekeeper X was complaining about being taken to court due to a bounced check, or failing to pay for product sent by you, I would be the first to say "quit complaining and pay your bill". And as for the next company not doing business with me due to this unfortunate mess, than so be it. If they are supplying what I paid for, why would they not take my money? The ones who would not sell because of harsh tactics to recoup money and supplies not sent, are the ones I do not want to deal with anyways.

"how you run your company" was taken out of context. You reference I was making a suggestion or telling you how to run your company. Wrong. Go back and read it again. I think it nice to misqoute someone just to use it as an opportunity to pat yourself on the back and mention what your doing, but its a little over the top and desperate. I do think it interesting that constructive critism, learning from others, and just plain exchange of information is shunned by you do due to others not doing the same business model as you. Saying that "until I do what you have done" only shows an extreme amount of ego and elitism. But good for you. I am sure your happy. "Astute people do not try this more than once". Whats that? I feel like your going to ask me to step outside next. Am I to be shaking? Please explain. Maybe this is what you mean by "calling you out". I'm calling....

I like to read the "spirit" of the complete comments. But I am sure I have given Jim enough that he can spend lots of time breaking down every word and comment. Go for it....







.

As a side note....I, lets repeat that..."I" made contact by calling Bolling bee after recieving a private number to his residence. Dozens made to the business and nothing. But call on Memorial day with a number unpublished to business directories, and I caught him at home. Imagine that. He did mention that he was just getting ready to call me. Hmmmm...


----------



## Barry Digman

Robert Hawkins 
House Bee 


posted May 30, 2005 11:22 PM 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mudslide still flowing.

--------------------
Brotherhood

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 15 | From: Colorado | Registered: May 2005 | IP: Logged | 

Fixed it.


----------



## Jim Fischer

> Mudslide still flowing. 

Sorry to point out the obvious, but the distinct
odor tends to indicate that the last few posts 
include something OTHER than mud.  

Yes, I know it may LOOK like mud...


----------



## Barry Digman

> Sorry to point out the obvious, but the distinct
> odor tends to indicate that the last few posts
> include something OTHER than mud.
> 
> Yes, I know it may LOOK like mud...


Yeah, well once again I'll trot out the plow horse and thoroughbred analogy. (Trot out. Heh.) 
For those of us who don't have the expertise that some of you folks have, the wade through the stuff is usually worth the trip.

Fact is that there are some of the most experienced and well informed beekeepers in the country on here, and along with that caliber of beekeeper comes a bit of what some may perceive as ego, arrogance, and competitiveness. It just comes with the turf.

On that note, I would like to see a bit more personal insight from those who are running some commercial aspect of bees as the conversation progresses. Or regresses, as the case may be. Those are the parts worth waiting for.... the first person accounts of how problems are handled, what to do and what not to do, and lessons learned. Case studies are a wonderful way to learn things, and this one could provide valuable insight.


----------



## Robert Hawkins

Coyote, I'm not so sure. Everyone agrees that communications should have been made. Everyone agrees that those who did not receive what they ordered have a reason to moan. That's it. None of us need more complaints. None of us need more threats. And two of us do not need to "step outside". Let it go.

Hawk


----------



## mark williams

AMEN:


----------



## Barry Digman

> That's it. None of us need more complaints. None of us need more threats. And two of us do not need to "step outside". Let it go.


Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not concerned with personalities, complaints, etc. I'm I'm interested in the business forensics. I'm always curious to know why some businesses work and some don't. What's the chain of events that leads to an order not being filled as expected? I'm not a commercial keeper, but for me that end of beekeeping is as interesting as new equipment or local nectar sources is for others. What aspects of commercial beekeeping are common to other businesses and which are unique? Which tasks are critical and which ones are just enhancements? Raising your own queens for your nucs and packages versus buying them? Can a person with a handful of hives make one niche pay, or are the resource requirements such that there's a critical mass one has to reach? That's the kind of stuff we can learn from these things. The rest is superfluous, but sometimes pops up. No big deal.


----------



## Jim Fischer

> What's the chain of events that leads to an order 
> not being filled as expected?

The problem is the same problem that any beekeeper
faces - one simply cannot assure 100% (or any
percentage) survival of one's colonies, one cannot
predict weather appropriate for queen mating, and
so on.

One way to avoid being handed the short end of the
stick in these situations is to band together with
other small beekeepers, and place a large single
order, well in advance of Jan 1.

Looking at it from the queen producer's point of
view, which order would you fill first? The 4
queen orders, the 50 queen orders, or the 200
queen order? 

Another point is that repeat customers are likely
to get their orders shipped before people who
have never ordered before. The value of a repeat
customer should be obvious.

Beekeepers are optimists, and queen producers are
no different. This sometimes ends badly.

Other than the above, just about anything could
screw things up. Nothing is certain about
agriculture.


----------



## mark williams

>Looking at it from the queen producers point of view,which order would you fill first?The 4 queen order,the 50 queen order,or the 200 queen order?<
Simple,The first one that called in.  >>>>Mark


----------



## YBCute

I agree 100%. The orders filled first as they are received reguardless of the amount. It was stated that way on the net page. First come first served so I ordered in Dec 04. This means no queens had been shipped out by May 7 / 05??? I doubt that.
This is only 1 web site, how many others had the same problems and don't know what to do?? How many are saying nothing but working in the back ground? 
I believe we do need a section of recommended suppliers and problems.
Customer asked me today for caucasion queens. I said good luck. I don't carry them anymore and really don't want to anymore ,till I find a reliable supplier.


----------



## Dick Allen

Well, they only ignored two of my emails late last fall. After that I gave up on trying to contact them. I suppose I have to consider myself fortunate in that they didn't get any of what little money I do have. If they did and if the sheriff or the cops or calling 911 could get my money back, I'd call them too.


----------



## Ricko

It is obvious to me that this forum could use some type of a feedback forum in the form of positive/ neutral/ negative evaluation. Yes, similar to that found on Ebay or Photo.net http://www.photo.net/neighbor/subcategory-index?id=2 
Photo.net is a prime example. As a photographer, I can tell you that this is a valuable site to visit before one makes a major investment in a piece of equipment. 
Photography is a BIG money hobby/profession, and when a deal goes sour in that industry, it really hurts!

I think some type of feedback system would stop a lot of "mud slinging", and would also help police our industry. For the most part, those that frequent this forum fall into the category of "hobby beekeeper", having limited funds, and who could benefit from some type of feedback system. Let's face it folks, I don't see a whole lot of young people rushing into the world of commercial beekeeping for the "easy" money! LOL 
So when it gets right down to it, isn't it the "hobby" beekeeper that makes up the bread and butter of the bee supplier? Maybe I'm all wet here.

Sometimes loyalties are hard to break, regardless as to how many negative responses are posted. That's fine and if one is willing to continue to take the chance with this type of supplier based on loyalty, then great, go for it! Since my "hobby" funds are limited, I'm not willing to take that great of a risk. So I'll appreciate all the feedback to help me in my decision making, and thank ALL the folks in advance who have left a response, whether it be positive or negative for me to use in my evaluation of a supplier.

Seems there was a recent post close to this topic titled "Credit where credit is due" which kind of died on the vine!

A feedback system isn't just to weed out the less than average operator who is allowed year after year to go unchecked using his bad business practices. How about the operator, who does an outstanding job year after year, yet receives no recognition for it? It can work for him also.
For the most part, I think this group is a close knit group, and willing to go to bat for injustices. I recall about a year ago a post about someone who purchased a radial extractor from a supplier only to have it delivered with a damaged tank. Not being able to recall the exact details at the moment, I believe it came down to some poor packing and many of the folks on this forum sent email to the supplier expressing an interest in what his (the supplier) intentions were in solving the problem. As I recall, a new well packed replacement tank was sent at no charge, everyone was happy and the supplier was no worse off. A good ending to what could have been a miserable outcome. Some times there is that situation that has to be brought to the forefront because the loss would be too great to let it go with just a negative rating.
We ARE a couple thousand voices strong, are we not suppose to protect our hard-earned dollars? Is it wrong to ensure that we get a "fair shake" for our money? Why should we settle for less than the best? Must we always accept the "good old boys" syndrome found on many forums, which is to keep our mouths shut, turn our heads and / or absorb the loss for fear we might upset someone! And I'm sure there are many out there that have done just that.
What about the new person coming into the fold? Do we help him through the land mines or do we take the attitude that everyone must take their licks like the rest of us did?

I'd really like to see some progress here on the subject of some type of rating forum, as by this thread many feel that it would be a positive thing to have. Yet, if it's to be that we must continue with the "good old boy" syndrome, then I can only say shame on us, we deserve the treatment we get!


----------



## Phoenix

> It is obvious to me that this forum could use some type of a feedback forum in the form of positive/ neutral/ negative evaluation. Yes, similar to that found on Ebay


Yeah, that's a great idea... NOT! eBay's feedback system sucks. Too many people jump to conclusions and make poor decisions and leave hasty feedback. As would have happened in this case.

I'm sure even Bjorn would admit he feels less hostile after making contact with Bollings.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL

>I'm sure even Bjorn would admit he feels less hostile after making contact with Bollings.

But Bjorn hasn't made contact with Bollings yet, or so he has not posted that he has.

I like the idea of some type of rating system. I have no idea how to do it, but credit, both good and bad needs to be put where it belongs.

Steve at Mann Lake made right the extractor problem for me. He made for some good customer relations and very good advertising here on BS. Many posted that they have no reservations about doing business with them after seeing how he took care of that problem.

I have yet to see where Mountain Honey is going with the broken promises and the postal insurance problem, but there is promise from Dann to set things right. I will call him as soon as I see what the Post Awful is going to do.

But how many of us still have issues that need to be addressed? I have yet to receive my refund from Brand New for the bogus branding iron that they touted to burn deep brands into wood. It didn't even make a good stain on the surface! I'm still out over $300 and I returned the product a year ago.  I could keep a lawyer busy, but I'm broke enough.

NEVER, EVER, BUY A BRANDING IRON FROM BRAND NEW!

We need to let others know who are the good guys and who are the crooks.


----------



## Sundance

I support a rating system as well. 

What makes ebay's system valid is that a purchase is required to leave a one time feedback specific to that product. 

That would be essential for a system to be valid. Not linking it to a specific transaction opens feedback up to mudslinging and ballot box stuffing to perceived good companies. I am not sure if it can be accomplished in a forum like this.


----------



## Mitch

The best rateing system is you I am sure there are those that will buy from someone who has problems again and those who will not.Clearly we all want our bees at the proper time.But sometimes it will not happen that way. Now we all need to spend as much time on the bees as we do on here lol.


----------



## Michael Bush

>Steve at Mann Lake made right the extractor problem for me.

I believe Steve is at Brushy Mt.?


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL

>I believe Steve is at Brushy Mt.?

Ooops! Busted.







Well, it was late at night... But the point is still valid, any good company will work out problems and quickly, and those companies include Brushy Mountain, Mann Lake, Betterbee, Dadant, Mid-Con, and Drapers for me. I am sure there are more I am not mentioning here at the spur of the moment, but I can attest for these.

I was very impressed when Betterbee called me to question if I really wanted some nuc boxes I ordered. They informed me that shipping was almost twice what the products cost and recomended that I cancel the order. Yes!, thank you very much!


----------



## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

It would be nice to believe that, somehow, beekeeping segregates the honest from the crooked. But I've had enough experience with them to know that simply is not the case. An honest, hardworking individual is what he is. A crook, thief, murderer or liar is also what he is. Character is independant of profession or occupation.

And I've got lots of beekeeping incidents I could share. Let's see there's the ....., everyone's leaving just like my children:>))

I'm not saying that Bolling Bee is crooked. But the question isn't really one of his moral intent, rather his business ethic. They promised and didn't/couldn't comply. I'm sure if the situation were reversed, if they had shipped and the beekeepers check bounced, they would have figured out how to use the phone before a month went by. And I bet a few sob stories from the deliquent beekeeper as to why he couldn't pay would have been met with a reality check.

Maybe that's why commercial beekeepers personally know their queen producers. There's just too much at risk not to know them. And the trust that develops between them, over the years, is worth alot. That's why some can get queens and the queen producer get his money, even during the bad times.

And that's also why a business cost more to buy that just the amount carried on the depreciation sheet. Good will/name recognition is expensive to obtain and to maintain. But it can be worth a gold mine. A queen producer without it only ownes a bunch of bugs in some half rotten boxes.

Regards
Dennis


----------



## King bee apiary

Gotta be fair here,if you provide a place for bad venders you have to also provide a place for bad customers,you know the one that pays half on order and then the rest upon deleivery but never do.


----------



## BWrangler

Hummm.... A beekeeping hall of shame ;>))) And that's a good point King Bee. 

Anyone in the BUSINESS of bees had better make provisions for the unethical beekeeping customer. I would certianly have my own list with associated addresses, phone numbers, credit card numbers, etc. as I'm sure some customers would attempt to change their identity just like some producers have over the years.

Regards
Dennis
Thinking there should be some way to get like minded customers and producers together. Just how would that work? A producer not calling and a customer not answering! :>)))) Each one getting the best of the other!


----------



## ikeepbees

Update: The last time I spoke to Mr. Livings I was going to receive some or all of my packages near the end of last week (May 29 - June 4). On Friday, June 3 I still had not heard when I should pick them up (recurring theme here). I called, and to my surprise he answered. After we greeted each other and asked how things were going, etc., he asked what he could do for me, as though he had no idea why I was calling.

I explained that he had, once again, given me a delivery date that had passed without even a call from him, and that I wanted to know if I was getting a refund or packages. He indicated that the packages would be ready for pickup on Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday of this week.

Bjorn, I told him that you would be out of town for a while and that he should contact you prior to shipping any queens.


----------



## ikeepbees

I was able to pick up 4 of 10 packages from Bolling Bee Farm today (2 months late).


----------



## King bee apiary

just 4 ?


----------



## YBCute

I ran into another beekeeper by chance yesterday and caucasion bees came into the conversation. He had ordered just 12 packages of bees and guess where? Ordered back in Dec / 04 so he would get them on time. He said he would wait till July for them. I asked if cells were already drawn and he said no. I advised him I highly doubt that they will come even close to building up before winter but he still wants to wait. I just wonder how many are in the back ground and are still waiting. So, if anyone besides " B " has caucasion queens I'd sure like to help this beekeeper out by splitting a few of my hives so he can atleast get started.Otherwise, I said get snow suits for them on christmas.


----------



## BjornBee

I will be returning from Denmark on Wed. I spoke to Livings a couple weeks back and I said I wanted the bees in the mail by the time I arrive or a check. I said he can decide and contact me on the 15th. Something tells me I will be playing phone tag for the next couple weeks. Not. Regardless of all those who feel differently, I will be calling everyone and anyone who can help, assist, to end this saga. Sorry if this includes the sherrif, or anyone else.

It is in the best interest of all involved, that full refunds should be offered, with the initial contact being made by bolling bee. For a new beekeeper this is and probably will be tragic for starting so late. I wonder if nobody ever called or asked for money back how late in the year he would be shipping these bees.

I really wonder about those who openly supported and defended a missed due date in the interest of bad weather. Can this really be bad weather? I bet Mr. Livings was so happy to hear all those who are still sympathetic and supportive and plan on ordering in the future. I hope they stick to thier convictions. A day yes. A week, yes. A month, your asking alot. Two months, unbelievable. A missed season, those who order again are idiots.

I still am amazed that I can say a "nasty" word and potentially be kicked off the board. But a supplier who obviously has wronged many, can continue to be supported and advertised on the board.


----------



## loggermike

Bjorn is right.Timing is everything in the bee business and there is no excuse to treat customers like this.My regular supplier for April queens always calls if there will be any delay in shipping and its never been more than a few days.2 months? Un freakin believable!


----------



## beeman 202

a few weeks with mea culpa's=====all is forgiven.
a month or two----you've inflicted severe financial injury on your customer. NOT FORGIVEN.

A SWARM IN MAY.....A LOAD OF HAY,
A SWARM IN JULY......NOT MUCH.


----------



## Joel

Bjorn, hope you had a great trip to Denmark. This must have wreaked havoc on your business this year(nucs and honey). You certainly have every reason to air this laundry and what has happened to you and the others here is in-excusable. Best of luck in recovering your season. Keep us posted on progress, even a tragedy should have an ending.


----------



## Ricko

The poll I posted "Supplier Ratings" shows an 88% interest in doing some type of Rating system.
It doesn't have to be EXACTLY like eBAY or photo.net, these were only suggestions. In this thread there seems to be other names that surface which give less than good service. So I believe a rating system would be useful.
Michael, as moderator of this forum,do you have any suggestions as to how to go about getting some type of rating forum added to this web site?
Can we kick around some design suggestions for consideration?


----------



## Michael Bush

Having a rating "section" or "forum" would be a decision for Barry, not me.


----------



## amymcg

Just a thought, there is a site called "Garden Watchdog" that allows people to rate their transaction with garden suppliers. Maybe someone so inclined could set up their own site similar to this.


----------



## mark williams

While we are at it,Let's rate Car's,
Maybe Garden Hoses?  
Imo I think this is getting out of hand.>>>>Mark


----------



## Ricko

Mark,how is expecting an honest return for giving of one's money, or being forced to having one's plans put on hold for a year because of an unreputable supplier "getting out of hand"? That's what's going on here, and you think that's alright? Conduct all business on "blind" faith??
I think not!


----------



## mark williams

I don't do buisness on blind faith,I try to do my homework,Not to say that I havn't been took.
I'm sure that Bjornbee,Thought that he was doing the same & believe me I do feel for him,To me that is awful,setting him back a year,also I know I'll never deal with Bolling Bee co.
You stated above that you got an 88% interest in the rating system,From what?,there is alittle over 2000 members,so you got a respond from 1700+ members?
JMO,This is not a sales group like E-bay,
Heaven knows not in Bjornbee's place,But alot of times there is 2 sides of the coin,
With that said, I guess I'm in the 12% or 300+ that as I stated above think this is getting out of hand. as I said JMO,>>>>Mark


----------



## Joel

The problem with an online rating system will be verifying information. Although the information on Bolling Bee is overwhelming we had a bit of a dispute over bees shipped from Weeks in Georgia to Ohio that were infested with beetles. We have 1 individual giving us facts (at least he made them sound like facts) like he knew what he was talking about and was close to the source. Then we had rebuttal from 2 or three other very credible members and suddenly individual #1 is strangely silent. Too few of the 2700 or so members actually post to get a cross section large enough to get us to the bare bones of a true evaluation on any scale large enough to have value. I think the method we use now is pretty reliable thanks to the dedication of a few. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!


----------



## bejay

a supplier review section added to the forum could easily allow people to post reviews if they wanted, whether it was a good or a bad review.
while we all know a supplier can't possibly have all satisfied customers and even companys that have excellent service, could get a bad review every once in awhile.
this allows people to make a decision on choosing a supplier based on other peoples reviews if the supplier has bad service or does not deliver on a regular basis they will stand out by having alot of bad reviews and very few if any good reviews.
while they will not be very many members that post reviews there is more than enough members for the small number of suppliers of bees or bee equipment.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL

Reminds me of Geiko. "Customer satisfaction rating 97%"


----------



## Ricko

Well said bejay. I doubt that just because there is a place for one to place a rating, folks would stuff the "ballot box" with negatives or positives. If a supplier had 50 positive ratings and 5 negatives, what would this tell you? For me, I'd look at how close together the negatives were that might give an indication of a recent change in business practice that may have gone sour for this particular supplier. Otherwise, a random scattering of 5 negatives would tell me that there are probably just 5 bull headed individuals that just can't be pleased. Isn't this what they refer to in a Gallup Poll when they talk about a +/- 3% margin of error??
Take this current thread, I'd say that if there were a rating system in place, there'd be a rash of negatives grouped together in about a two-month time frame by different folks. Enough anyway that it would catch my interest, and if I was considering using this supplier, I'd investigate further by contacting some of the folks who gave negative ratings and also the supplier himself for his side. If one's name was associated with his given rating, I'm sure that it wouldn't take long to see who the folks are that just can't be pleased in any way!
So let's say youre a supplier who just received a negative rating. I'd like to think that you'd treat a negative rating like a bounced check, resolve it quickly. 
When I say negative rating, I mean NEGATIVE, DATE, and POSTER. No need for allowing some type of lengthy emotional diatribe. This way one could email privately the poster for his reasons on the negative rating. 
The system would have a 30 day grace period for the two parties to get together, and resolve their differences before the rating becomes permanent. The supplier can contact the poster in order to make resolution. In the case of a negative, resulting from none delivery of bees, the supplier can come through and deliver the bees as promised or refund the amount of money paid. Something worked out that is agreeable to both parties. It would require some give and take by both sides.
Once an agreeable resolution has been made, both parties could email the moderator stating that the problem has been worked out, and the negative rating can then be upgraded to a neutral by the moderator. A neutral rating means that an existing problem was resolved with an agreeable solution to both parties. 
This forum has 2000+ members, which I'm sure, not all will post any type of rating. Even if a supplier had 30 ratings, I'm sure by seeing what the majority of the ratings are, one could estimate the risk factor should he decide to use this supplier.
I'd look at several neutral ratings as perhaps someone starting in the business that just hasnt worked out the fine details (no MBA) yet, but is very willing to work hard at learning and resolving all issues as they arise. I wouldn't have a problem using this supplier as he's demonstrated that he's willing to work things out.
Then again, you might even see those suppliers who'd laugh at the system and do nothing! Perfectly willing to except negative ratings, forgoing any effort to resolve problems. This says something for itself also.
What I've outlined above is just me thinking out loud in order to hopefully get something moving in a positive direction. I know there will be some of you who'll tear this apart without adding something in return. That's fine, this is just meant to be a straw man! What I've said is in no way an absolute perfect answer to the problem, but I'd like to think it is a catalyst to getting something in place that does work for us all, whether we decide to post to it or not.


----------



## BjornBee

I think any rating system would be flawed. Just looking at the problems of the past or observations....

A few times there was a big influx of comments concerning one product or another coming from one particular area of a country. Only upon questioning did it materialize that some of the comments were from those who had direct influence and vested interest in the product mentioned. How could you keep some from logging on multiple computors and saturating posts for there own gain? I may be wrong but at least ebay's comments can not be influence by the seller or producer directly as it could be on a forum such as this.

What about instead of a product, the conversation or rating chat carried over to a process also. Can you imagine someone actually questioning or commenting on something like FGMO negatively? It borders on blasphemy. You will get no "God bless you" or "brother" comments unless you are totally supportive and only say what some want to hear. Anything less and its "I'm taking my ball and going home". I can not even question two conflicting recently posted comments on the subject. MB says that FGMO only kills off mites with repeated applications and is a control method not designed to eliminate all mites. That you will always have some. Than Dr. R says a few posts later, that he has been "mite free" for 12 years. If I was too actually ask about these comments, I would be labeled as a non-supportor and comments to this would be posted as such. (And we really do not need to go into looking at all the conflicting statements made about 100% this, or other questionable statements that do not add up over the years.) My point is that in evauluation something such as Bee-o-pac, its not only the plastic used that you want comments on, its the actual use and effectiveness also. We can debate which oil is best, but could we discuss openly and even question the field use and results of something like FGMO on an even keel?

And what if I did not like Jim Fisher. Would it be correct for me to comment as I am sure it could happen, that his product is not effective? I have not met the man, am not interested in doing so, but could his antics and comments effect a ratings system? Could go either way, good or bad I suppose. Would a recent post from him in which he cleverly comments and overly states "third man from the right", and than openly states that other recent comments by members are the "smell" of something other than a snowball. Could this come into play for some? Could be. Some products have great effectiveness and results, but the inventor or person behind the product is a lousy salesman, this resulting in some impact of comments.

What about me? I am sure for some, my comments seem over the top. ("over your head" would be proper. Duh. Oh shoot, there I go again.) And can we really ever get over the "which hand wipes the butt comment". This has been devestating for some. Almost a reoccurring nightmare that keeps playing over and over in some peoples mind. That comment alone has denied some the actual use a a library computor as it resulted in a ban for access to this site. Could my "fun-time" on this site effect some ratings system? Would those who actually met me have the same opinion. In a perfect world everyone would just comment on the product in a unbiased way. But were human. Bias, ego's, self promotion, personal feelings, and other items, would and could flaw a ratings system.

I think it better for open dialog and chat between beekeepers. I did start the "credit where credit is due" post awhile back. I am not afraid to comment positively as much as negatively. What kills me is the bleeding heart types who just feel anything negative is bad. That we should be some "band of brothers" who should not comment anything less than postive. The "were all beekeeper" comments do little to help. Were all human beings, but there are alot of different groups we could stick people into. Some I would want to deal with and some not. Other peoples experiences help me make those dicisions. Only hearing the good is not best. I want to know who I can depend on, and I also want to hear which ones I should avoid.

What should happen is some control as the level of compentence and service in maintaining a place to advertise on this site. I know its Barry's site so this is just my opinion. But the protection of members, and the "right" to advertise here should have some level of critia. Maybe my level is different than some. I am just questioning the ability to have someone advertise, when members needs are not being met. I specifically took the information and phone number from this site. I would hate for new members just logging on to go through what I did, just because they looked to this forum for information.

I spoke to Mr. Livings last night. I said I was back in town. I asked whether my 12 queens or a check was in the mail. He said that he would rather send me the check. My ship date was two months ago, and I am now getting my money back. Anyone reading this who is still waiting should take heed as to that last sentence.

I wish the best to Mr. Livings in the future. Many were correct in saying he is very nice to speak too. Unfortunately I would rather deal with a much less nice person,....say someone like Jim F (just kidding of course), and actually recieve my product.


----------



## Jim Fischer

I agree completely with BjornBee.

For anyone to presume to "rate" a business, they
are first assuming that they have an impartial
and complete view. They don't. I had a heck of
a time convincing bee supply dealers to support
our no-hassle guarantee, as nearly all of them
said that beekeepers are among the worst whiners
and complainers on the planet. I think our
actual experience has shown them that beekeepers
are pretty easy to get along with, as the "return
rate" has been less than the amount that
evaporates when mixing up batches.

But anyone bothering to contribute a "rating"
would either be "very happy" or "very unhappy"
about something specific.

Given that the members of this group number less
than 1% of US beekeepers, the results would 
always be skewed one way or the other, and an 
accurate view would never result.

> I have not met the man,

I thought we met at EAS 2004. Weren't you
the fellow who supplied the hives for the
workshop apiary?

> am not interested in doing so,

I'm deeply hurt.

> but could his antics and comments effect 
> a ratings system?

"Antics"? Moi?
Hello Pot, I'm the Kettle!


----------



## BjornBee

Kettle, I did supply some of the hives and desease samples for the 2004 EAS. I did not however attend. Perhaps it answers some question in my mind as to you thinking I am another. It probably led to a much lower evaluation of myself by you, based on this encounter.









I am sure this "other" person could not of been as charming, handsome, and witty, as the actual "me" is.









I am also sure our paths will cross one day. Just go easy on the "french".









Don't you just love that yellow head figure.
Anyone still reading this post and has not recieved an order from bolling bees needs to go back and read the last post by me on page 5 of this thread. You may be waiting for awhile.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL

Well said Bjorn, I couldn't agree more.

Satisfaction rating, 100%


----------



## Ricko

BjornBee, Jim Fischer, all great comments. BjornBee, I have to agree with your comment on FGMO. If you're not a disciple of the FGMO cult, then you are indeed not welcome! LOL 
I wanted to expound on one of Jim's comments concerning rating a business. I would rather think that we are rating a transaction, which the sum total of determines the rating of the business. 
Now the conversations have veered off into the direction of evaluating products, which is something a little different. Ask a hundred beekeepers to evaluate a product and you'll get a hundred different answers!
I guess I was hoping for something that would help me a year or two down the road when I was ready to make another purchase of equipment, bees, etc. Two years from now, when ordering bees, will we all remember Bolling Bee? In this thread Bullseye made a hint concerning some other suppliers. I don't know if it was made in humor, or if there was substance behind it. Don't exactly know. Never the less, two years from now that information might come in handy also. Evaluation of a product is one thing, but what seems to be out and out thievery, is another.
I say thievery, because funds were paid, and no product of equal value was given in return. It's just of late, that someone is finally going to have their funds returned. Remember the damaged extractor, it took a few emails in order to get a replacement tank sent. Had there not been a replacement sent, the extractor as a whole would probably been useless. As it stands today, no one even cares whether the extractor works, great, okay or terrible, which wasn't the issue. The whole issue was whether a supplier was going to stand behind a transaction that resulted in an unusable product to begin with. And that supplier came through! Who was that again by the way?
These are transactions, which have the potential where a person was going to, or has incurred a 100% loss. These are the ones worth noting , so that two years from now we'll have ready access to these comments and know to shy away from a transaction with these suppliers. Shy away that is, if we cannot stand to take the loss.
Otherwise in two years I may just have to email you individually to ask about whom that was that was taking orders and money for bees back in the spring of 05, but not delivering the goods? 

Now for an evaluation rating, Bullseye, you were saying you had an outstanding source of supply for branding irons? Irons that burnt deep into the wood? Oh come on now Bullseye, I was just trying to interject a little humor here! I'm trying to keep this on the light side..Gee, we're not discussing a source of supply for pure Thymol crystals or something!


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL

>Bullseye, you were saying...

Let me be clear here. I buy a lot of stuff from a lot of different places.

Only once had I not gotten my packages, even when ordered Jan 1. McCary.

Only once was I burned for a bad product that did not do what it was advertized to do. Brand New. NEVER EVER BUY... well you know.

All other times the products were shipped but damaged by the shippers. The shippers have been my real problem, and they will go to great lengths not to honor the insurance claim. It's no wonder that the sellers do not want to go through the hassle.

It is extremely important that you inspect your shipment before you sign for it. Be warned.

It took going to the top dog, and your help, to get relief for my extractor problem, but Steve at Brushy Mountain took care of it. It is a fine piece of equipment and works great.

Customer satisfaction? 99%


----------



## loggermike

>>Only once was I burned for a bad product that did not do what it was advertized to do. Brand New. NEVER EVER BUY... well you know.
Yep its like they made it out of some metal that wont absorb heat!A good iron will get redhot.This one wont.If you push on it real hard for a minute-you can get a half*** brand around a sixteenth of an inch.Wow.


----------



## Barry Digman

> But anyone bothering to contribute a "rating"
> would either be "very happy" or "very unhappy"
> about something specific.


I used to own a bookstore. Folks who came in were always in a good mood and had a good time, but that's what they were there for. Walk into an auto parts store on a hot July afternoon and everyone is grumpy. Something's broken or worn out and has to be fixed and it's not much fun. One would have to structure a rating system so that it wouldn't just be capturing the extremes of customer satisfaction.


----------



## Borgnik

Glad I stumbled across this thread about Bolling Bee. I sent my deposit in last November for a package after leaving Mr. Livings a message on his voice mail. He promptly called back that morning. That was the last I heard from Mr. Livings. He cashed my check. He has not responded to multiple messages on his voice mail, multiple letters with delivery confirmation acknowledgements, and multiple e-mails. It is clear he has no intention of shipping my package, giving me a refund, or even communicating with me. There is no amount of bad weather, family matters, or other specious claims that can justify what he has done to me. I cannot tolerate a thief and those who would make excuses for Bolling Bee farm don't know what they are talking about. I do.


----------



## Phoenix

I'm glad you stumbled across this site as well. You'll fit right in with the rest of the crowd that thinks they are the only ones that know what they are talking about.

You obviously have never given anyone the benefit of the doubt either have you?

If every one of us were to influence those around us by a bad experience we have had, where would we be? I'm sure that everyone on this board has had a bad experience with one beekeeper or another, if that one bad experience were all it took to check that supplier off the list, who would we be able to buy from? There would be nobody on the list.


----------



## Jim Fischer

Welcome, Borgnik. Please forgive Phoenix.
He must have had a difficult day.

Of course you "know what you are talking about",
as you are simply relating your own experience,
and calling 'em as you see 'em.

While your conclusion may still be proven 
wrong by a refund, its now JULY, and anyone
still without bees, still without a refund,
and still without an explanation by now has 
clearly suffered an "actionable breech of 
contract".

Beedawg is member of the group and an assistant
prosecutor, perhaps he can be enlisted to give
an opinion of the applicability of Alabama's
mail fraud (checks go in the mail) and wire 
fraud (there's a website) statutes. After all,
no one would want to go and make a federal case
out of it, would they?

Many excuses were possible back when it was
"the season" for queen producers to be very
busy, when the weather was so lousy, and so
on. But it is now months later, so the
passage of time alone forces a rational person
to be far less forgiving.


----------



## Phoenix

There we go, perfect example. Mr. Fischer comes to my defense, asking for me to be forgiven, yet he doesn't know me, nor does he know what kind of day I had. He is merely trying to keep the peace.

Ok, though it was not my intention my response may have come across a little harsh, but no more harsh than the statement I read...


> and those who would make excuses for Bolling Bee farm don't know what they are talking about.


...clearly stating that anyone jumping to the defense of their fellow man is wrong. 

I too am in dispute with a supplier, yet I am a little more rational in my decisions to badmouth them.


----------



## Jim Fischer

I'm sorry, my choices were "forgive him" or
"ignore him", so I picked the kinder, gentler
approach.

I will not make that error again.


----------



## Borgnik

Sorry, Phoenix, I didn't mean to rile things up all over again. I also didn't mean to impugn the reputation, experience, or helpful advice freely given on this list by fellow beekeepers. What I meant to say, but not very well, was that anyone who automatically came to this supplier's defense without knowing the extent of efforts I have gone to in trying to resolve this matter didn't know what they were talking about. I also used an emotionally-charged word that may not have been appropriate.

When I talked to Mr. Livings he was a charming Southern Gentleman. He called back in about 30 minutes after I left a voice mail message expressing an interest in buying a package of his Caucasian bees. He was very helpful and reassuring that, because I was calling him so early in November '04, I would be on "top of the list" for when shipments would begin in the spring. Unfortunately, that was the last I heard from Mr. Livings. I sent in my check where he said to send it and he, or someone in his group, cashed the check. At the first conversation he said I would need to send more money for the shipping charges in the spring. Starting in late February I tried to make contact to determine what the shipping charges would be so I could send him the balance. After three or four attempts by phone I tried letters sent to the address where the check went. In all I made over a dozen attempts by phone, mail, or e-mail. I have not heard one peep from him. I realized in April that I was not going to see any bees. I continued to try to make contact until about the middle of May asking for a refund. In my letters I was very accommodative and opened the possibility that there were circumstances I wasn't aware of that could possibly be causing the delay. In all of my messages I requested that he call and give me an update on the situation. He has ignored all of my requests. In late May I realized I wasn't going to see a refund or any bees and assessed my options. I realized it was his behavior, or rather his lack of it, that was causing my anquish and not the loss of money. I can't change someone like that or their behavior so I just wrote off the money as learning experience. Remaining emotionally engaged with this frustrating issue by calling the law, filing complaints, etc. would not be good for my health and life is short.

I don't care if other folks want to develop a business relationship with Bolling Bee Farms as that is up to them. All I can do is give a factual representation of what my business relationship with them was and let others decide if that is relevant to their circumstances. Others might think I need to give them a thirteenth or fourteenth chance to do what is right but I don't think that will change the way they are doing business or get my refund. I don't think relating my experience with other beekeepers is a bad thing.


----------



## wjw777

Hey Guys.
Alot has been said about Bolling Bee Company,or should I said Mr Charles Livings, I just wonder how many people has been affected by this man and his company. For me it was just one package ,cost 72.00 Who's next


----------



## BjornBee

I will add that I did recieve a check from bolling bees in late June. The only contact I could make from him was with a private number that was sent to me from a person on Beesource. I called Mr. Livings with this number on memorial Day (Monday) and I think I surprised him with the call. I believe he was surprised. I do not have the number handy, but will try to find it. I think it was ikeepbees, but may be mistaken who had sent it to me. I know someone out there does have it.

I gave him a choice, send the bees by the 15th of June or send me the money back. He chose at that time to send the money. I mentioned of this at that time of those happenings. Since then it has been brought to my attention that "hearing me complain for two months" was more than some readers could handle. And although I know anyone could simply not read this post, they choose to complain. 

I would like to say thnk you to all those who helped, support, and relay information behind the scenes. Because of thier efforts, I recieved my money back.

And for those who still find it in thier nature to defend and all the while berate forum members for doing anything in thier power to protect thier interests, I find it incredible that I am still hearing this "defense" in July. Some of these members are the same people who spend days debating every political move beyond their immediate control, crying how they are getting screwed, but give a pass for someone who stole money from another. I may be passionate with politics and debate, but take money from my family, thats another level beyond. I find it hard to believe that some of these members would be saying the same things if it was them losing money.

And quit apoligizing birgnik. You did nothing wrong. You'll find that you will ever be apoligizing to some, all the while taking crap from them. Do whatever you can without guilt to get your money back. The only ones I know who recieved money back were the ones with threats and the "do anything mentality". Good luck.


----------



## TwT

well all I can say in all this is that I haven't and will never deal with this man, I know he just bought Bolling-Bee and everyone has had trouble this year raising packages and queens, but I think the guy messed up by not contacting people when he knew he was not going to deliver, now about how people got there problems resolved or didn't is not my affair, but if I ordered packages or queens and they were not on time i would expect some kind of communication, it should have never come this for, but I never ordered from the guy and never will because he show me something i dont tollerate from anyone i would buy from. and I thank all of you for showing me this before i was the one gripping, all-n-all he didnt handle it as a smart business man,to many people complaining, Just my opinion!!!


----------



## Phoenix

Glad to hear that you got your refund Bjorn, I would hope that Borgnik is able to get that number from you so he may also get his issue resolved.


----------



## Dick Allen

> I'm sorry, my choices were "forgive him" or
> "ignore him", so I picked the kinder, gentler
> approach.
> 
> I will not make that error again.


"A wise man speaks because he has something to say. A foolish man speaks because he has to say something."
---Jim Fischer


----------



## BjornBee

The number that is normally listed is 344-437-2429. The number that I found he actually answers is 256-825-5944 Good luck.


----------



## ikeepbees

An update on my situation: I prepaid 50% in December for 10 packages from Mr. Livings. I was told, like others, that I was near the top of the list for delivery as he worked on a first come, first serve basis. The original delivery date of first week in April came and went, and I found it very difficult to reach him after that. I was kept pretty much in the dark as to when or if I might get my bees. When I finally reached him, he promised me he would have my bees ready to be picked up. My wife altered her day to stand by for his call. No call. This happened twice. The third time was the charm, however, and I received 4 packages, 2 *months*, not weeks, late. I am still waiting for a refund on the rest of my money. 7 months after I sent it to him.

I don't think that relating our experiences with this man and expressing our opinion on this kind of business practice is "griping". If I were not one of the people involved, I would certainly hope that the rest of you would share this kind of treatment with the rest of us. When you pay in advance, it is not unreasonable to expect to (1), receive your bees on time, (2) receive a notice from the supplier that the bees will be late and an updated date of anticipated delivery, or (3), a notice from the supplier that the bees will not be delivered and a refund. I had 10 queens ordered from Purvis, and they chose option 3. I received the notice and the check in advance of the delivery date and I was able to adjust my plans accordingly. While I was disappointed that I was not going to get the queens, I was very happy that they informed me of the problem and that my money was refunded promptly.


----------



## Bob Harrison

Hello All,

The old saying:
"Do not count your chickens before they are hatched" applies to the queen & package business.
Also why a smart banker will not loan money on a honey crop you say you are going to make.


There is no excuse for not keeping contact with your customers but phone time takes up precious time for the small queen raiser.

When I am at my busy time of the year I only talk on the phone in an emergency. I also cut conversation short upsetting many people when I do come to the phone. Just because you are not busy does not mean I am not. Timing is the key to successful beekeeping! I am willing to try and help even the smallest hobby beekeeper with their problems but not when I am at my busy time and have got help sitting around getting paid waiting on me.

I often believe small package shippers do not realize the number of hives it takes to shake packages in early April.

Large queen & package producers run thousands of hives and produce every queen they can in spring. They use shaking packages as a swarm control and bank queens without any idea if they will be sold or not. The same principal applies to raising tomatoes or produce. You put out thousands of plants and the tomatoes you do not sell go on the compost heap. 

When you buy from the small and new queen & package people you will give up the service of the large suppliers most of the time.

The little guy has a tough road to hoe. He never seems to have enough bees and the least change in the weather effects his production. Also there is NO way to play catch up when you only get a 10-20% take on queens or your hives for shaking packages come out of winter short on bees.

I make no excuses for the queen and packages sellers discussed here as I have never ordered from any of those people. My comments are general observations from keeping bees for over forty years.


----------



## Michael Bush

I suppose being a very small producer, that's why I have some sympathy. It can be very difficult to predict what will happen with the bees, the weather etc. and some people have never learned to handle being overwelmed.


----------



## Bob Harrison

I believe many times you get a superior product from the small producer. They take extra time making sure their product is as advertised. Many have went into the queen business after complaining for years about the quality of commercially raised queens which are many times caged after a single egg is seen.
problems exist in all queen producers operations but are easier to eliminate with the large queen rearing operations. They can also get queens from another producer if supplies run short.
If you are selling a special queen then when you run short all you can do is cancel orders.
Most queen producers are honest with one infamous exception of Huck Babbcock. Over booking and booking before the queen rearing season has ever started (which all do) is the root of the problem.


----------



## Joel

Rob, very accurate assesments. I hope everyone reads this and commits it to mind. Taking orders in Jan./ Feb is a huge, calculated gamble and the smart beekeeper/businessman does not overextend or count on surplus. Even under the best of circumstances sometimes you can't deliver on a promise mother nature trumps.

We always keep the total sum of monies on hand for refunds until the nucs are in the hands of the new owners. We always hope for the best and plan for the worst and figure we can deliver the mimimum estimate in our good years. One queen breeder with a beetle problem could cut our production in 1/2 with a phone call, that's part of this crazy endeavor.


----------



## ikeepbees

Well........,

I am still waiting on my refund from Bolling for bees I paid for and didn't receive in Spring 2005. I've tried to contact him numerous times, and left messages indicating that I'd like to get my money back. The problems associated with being a small producer don't apply in this case.


----------



## Joel

Rob, that is inexcusable. To still have not received a refund or contact is outright stealing (in the moral sense if not the criminal). With the problems so many saw in the spring and the fact they are still ongoing Bolling Bee should be dropped from Beesource as a supplier and should get a message loud and clear from everyone beekeepers don't like seeing our fellow beekeepers ripped off.

I'd be interested if anyone else who posted is still not even and what we could do as a group to put some pressure on BB to right wrongs. I for one plan to see if there is an E-mail and forward my thoughts to the owner.


----------



## ikeepbees

I agree, Joel, that it is inexcusable. I have pretty much given up on the refund and am just chalking it up as a lesson learned.

I should tell you that, having dealt with Mr. Livings numerous times over the last year and a half or so, I am sure that there is no intent on his part to steal that money from me. I do find it very easy to believe, however, that whatever system he uses to keep track of such things failed and that I was just forgotten. It is also not unusual to leave numerous messages on his voice mail and have them be ignored.

There is an email address posted on his website, but I don't remember ever having any luck with it.

Here are two links to more info on this subject:

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000189#000000

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002814#000000

[ December 26, 2005, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: ikeepbees ]


----------



## King bee apiary

I feel your pain,even though I live close enough to drive to his place(15 min),I too am looking for a different supplier for packages and queens.
I had hoped to be able to start selling queens this year but having two hives die mid summer,late summer has reduced my numbers too low to be sucessful as a queen breeder this year.Also was not happy with the slow build-up of the caucasians so may try italians.

The last conversation with Charles I had back in Sept. or Oct. and was told he still plans on produceing packages and queens this coming year but had lost half of his hives to shb.And would be trying to increase his numbers and try a different form of queen rearing.In that same call He said he would be spending a lot of time on the gulf coast helping to repair the damage from the huricanes.
Hope he has worked out all of his problems and will return far stronger and better this year.
Good luck to all


----------



## ikeepbees

I thought I'd try emailing Mr. Livings again to remind him that he owed me a refund from money that I sent him over a year ago. Sent it to [email protected] per the website. The email was returned as undeliverable.


----------



## wayacoyote

Are you surprised? 
You don't sound surprised.
You're not surprised are you?

You might try writing a letter, and then writing a certified letter, and then writing another certified letter.....

Waya

[ January 20, 2006, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: wayacoyote ]


----------



## ScadsOBees

A different email that was on the website:

[email protected]

I also notice that the site hasn't been updated for 2006. Hopefully nobody is ordering on-line....


----------



## BWrangler

Hi Guys,

>one infamous exception of Huck Babbcock

It's interesting to recall this producer. He ran adds, under various names in the B Mags, for many years(decade +?) before his manner of business deals became generally known. It's a shame that so many people were taken advantage off.

Today, with this B board, it's quite easy and a fast way to share information. I hope that the above type of example won't be perpetrated on beekeepers again.

I don't know about Bolling Bees circumstances. But if he doesn't or can't make the past right, then he should be out the business, for whatever reason.

Anyone who thinks that raising bees and queens is the end of a queen/package business doesn't understand the bee business. Bees are just the beginning, much like flower is to a baker. They are simply the avenue which allows that producer to sell. And what he sells is service to another.

Any beekeeper can raise his own queens and bees. But it might not be as convienent or efficient/profitable as letting someone else do it. And that's the service that's being sold. It based mostly on time and then on stock.

The most critical part of a business plan is assessing and managing worse case scenarios. This is where most bee business's fail.

I'm not rich and although $72 dollars wouldn't break me, I would have to work a good part of a day to earn it. Now $720 would hurt! Bolling Bees unwillingness to communicate says it all. If anyone wants to feel sorry for this guy, feel sorry he got into a business he couldn't handle. But feel even more sorry for the people he has defrauded. Apparently he doesn't feel sorry enough to communicate with those he's owns money or bees to. Maybe the courts/post office would help him see things differently.

Regards
Dennis


----------



## wjw777

Hey Guys,
I tried calling him , no luck. does anyone have his correct address? Ill send him a certified letter if it helps. I like B Wrangler only invested 72 dollars in this . But he has a commitment to the people who intrusted him in his product. Ill settle for the package sent this spring but from what kingbee said ,that doesnt look like thats going to happen . I still feel sorry for him , he bit off more than he can chew and just dont know how to spit it out. there is such a need for good suppliers and good bees. Looks like a learning lesson so far. We will see. Its still a great hobby were in. 
Walt


----------



## Joel

{Hope he has worked out all of his problems and will return far stronger and better this year.
Good luck to all}

I wouldn't care if the guy got back on his feet, had the best bees in the country, endoresed by the reincarnated Brother Adam, and was blessed by the Pope. If what I've read here is true this owner has cheated (He's way past the just having a bad year stage) several beeks out of their money. Helping repair damage from Katrina, isn't that special, what an upstanding person! Shouldn't he be answering the phonecalls and e-mails and finding a way to write checks to the people trying to just get money back for something they never received!!!! Frame it any way you want, this guy sounds like a class A shister to me!

[ January 22, 2006, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: Joel ]


----------



## ikeepbees

Waya,

Not surprised at all.

ScadsOBees,

Thanks - I hadn't found that email. I sent one to that address.


----------



## fat/beeman

don't let a few bad apples spoil it for everyone there some good beekeepers that supply good bees in a timely manner.
I sell bees to and it hurts to hear of that shady dealings.
personaly I don't advertise its word of mouth I use for last 30 some yrs and usely got a waiting list for bees.
don't give up on all of us.
Don


----------



## ikeepbees

Don,

I won't! Great point!

Update: I have a voice mail from Mr. Livings saying that he will send my refund next week.


----------



## Bill Ruble

I just finished reading this whole tread. I am flabergasted!!

All I can say is, I can not with my wildest imagination understand anyone defending such practises. Sorry, if I don't sound simpethic to this guy, but I certainly


----------



## Bill Ruble

SIMPETHIC!!!


----------



## Bill Ruble

SIMPETHIC!!! What use is there of even saying more?


----------



## drobbins

hey guy's,

as a result of this whole situation, I built a little tool where we can enter info about package producers and later in the year we can put in comments about the service we got
it's here

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/packages.php

add info about package producers you know of
as time goes on I'll try to refine it

Dave


----------



## ikeepbees

I did finally receive a refund from Mr. Livings, and the check did clear the bank.


----------



## wayacoyote

Great, Rob,
And just in time to put you behind for ordering packages elsewhere THIS year too.

I hope you really aren't that far behind

Waya


----------



## ikeepbees

No, Waya, not too far behind this year. My real job is keeping me away from the bees more than I would like, though. I am going to do without packages this year and just try to make increase from what I have along with the purchase of some queens. Hope your year goes well.


----------



## wjw777

I Keep bees , what is the address you used to get your refund. and phone number if you have it. would appreicate it Walt


----------



## wjw777

I Keep bees , what is the address you used to get your refund. and phone number if you have it. would appreicate it Walt


----------



## ikeepbees

Walt,

As mentioned earlier in the thread, I tried the email address on his site ([email protected]) and it didn't work. I sent one to the address given by Scads above ([email protected]) and it appeared to have gone through. Shortly thereafter I received a voice mail from Bolling that I would be receiving my refund, so I guess that email triggered his response, though I'm not sure about that.

There is a phone number on his site, and an alternate provided by BjornBee either on this or a similar thread. I haven't had a lot of luck reaching him on the phone.


----------



## Sundance

Nice tool Dave! (bet you don't hear that often enough  ).

Hard to believe this thread is still running and this SHISTER is still screwing good people!

I'm with Joel. Regardless of his conversion to the "light side" I wouldn't buy from him ever.


----------



## WG Bee Farm

drobbins,
Is there a list some where suppliers can list customers and rate them later.  

[ March 06, 2006, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: WG Bee Farm ]


----------



## wjw777

Rob, 
Thanks for the info im going to try emailing our friend. hope to have some luck again thanks buddy Walt


----------



## PaulR

I sent Mr. Livings an email to inquire about 2006 Packages and queens.


----------



## King bee apiary

Not selling until he gets them stock piled up!!Then he said it would be first come.
Last I talked to him in January..


----------



## Kurt Bower

Great idea WG!
It would be a real asset to have a web site that rated the quality of the queens as well as the service, delivery, genetics, prices, availability etc...
I always research other products before I buy, but it seems to hit or miss when it comes to bees and queens.

Kurt


----------



## Hi-Tech

I am actually working with some people on a site where bee businesses, services and products can be rated and reviewed. we hope to have it finished by the middle of the summer...


----------



## Hi-Tech

We are almost finished with www.beekeepersvoice.com which is, among other things, a site where bee businesses, services and products can be rated and reviewed. we should be finished by the end of the month but most of it is done now.....


----------

