# Acetic acid vs OAV



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

OA is just as "natural" as AA. I think the question is: why use AA when OA works so well?


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Putting a little ACV in the sugar water fed to the bees is supposed to cause the mites to let go of the bees when the acid hits their hemolymph. I don't know if it works but the ACV has other benefits as well, so I use it. I still treat with OAV.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

dsegrest said:


> Putting a little ACV in the sugar water fed to the bees is supposed to cause the mites to let go of the bees when the acid hits their hemolymph.


Does it really, or did someone somewhere just say so?


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## WillH (Jun 25, 2010)

beepro said:


> Hi, All!
> 
> 
> Has anyone ever try to use the acetic acid powder instead of the wood treatment OA powder?


Acetic acid is a liquid at room temperature. So there is no need to vaporize. You can just pour it.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

It only remains in the solid form below a temperature of 62 F. It would be much nastier to handle than Oxalic which needs much higher temperature before it starts to gas off. Acetic and Formic acid are very close cousins but I dont know if acetic will affect mites under cappings.

My guess is that both formic and oxalic will be much cheaper and easier to obtain, plus you have the benefit of documented treatment instructions and outcomes with either of them. They are all organic acids and exist in "natural forms" but anything readily available will have been synthesized by industrial process.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I some times wonder if acetic or even formic could be used as a dribble on broodless bees as is done with OA. I think the OA is only about 3.5% of the sugar water solution and I think about 5 mils per row, so if the acid is substituted with cider vinegar would it work. Although it will be hard to beat the price of OA.
Johno


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Formic and oxalic have a good range between the rate that kills mites vs that which kills bees. Not all acids have this range. If you want to do a trial and error test on your bees....go ahead.....but for the life of me, I don't understand why you would. It isn't as though oxalic is so hugely expensive. I think I'll stick to those proven effective with minimum damage to the bees.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I reiterate my observation that just because something is classified as an "organic acid" (as formic, oxalic, acetic, citric and others are) in the chemical sense, it does NOT mean that using it would be considered an "organic method" of pest control.

The former, i.e., "organic acid" is just a technical description of a category of chemical substances that appear in nature vs. ones that _only_ can be derived from chemical synthesization. (Although as Frank noted, natural substances like many organic acids can also be created in the lab, and likely are for economic reasons in many instances.)

The latter, i.e., "organic methods" are a set of agricultural practices that have been codified (by state, Federal, or other bodies) into a system that leads to organic certification of the end products. And it does not mean that all pesticide treatments were made using only benign, or even organic, materials. There is no standard for certified organic honey produced in the US because the nectar gathered by the bees can not realistically be known or certified as being from organically grown plants. 

Don't confuse the acronym ACV (apple cider vinegar) with the classification of pure acetic acid as an organic acid substance in the context of discussing OAV (oxalic acid _vaporization_). I know of no described use of the powdered form of acetic acid being used in vaporization. Has anyone else head of this?

I doubt that vinegar fed to bees at a concentration that would be palatable and safe for them could change the pH of the hemolymph sufficiently to deter mites while still being safe for the bees. It's not a perfect analogy, but hemolymph has some of the same functions as our blood and no doubt it also has a pretty tight normal pH range and if that was altered significiantly it would impair or destroy its normal functions. In other words even if you affect the pH of the hemolymph to deter or kill the mites, you'd likely also kill the bees.

Although that would end your mite problems!

Enj.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Like others have said, can't always find acids in powder form, the mild organic ones are probably easier but most concentrated acids you find in 16 molar for concentrated. Acetic acid is typically found in vinegar, so I'm not sure why you would want to be applying it to your bees without knowing more on how it reacts, it could be more reactive to biological organisms than oxalic.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I do not think there is any research out there on exactly how OA dribble works on mites, some think it is by contact and others by the ph of the hemolymph. There have been some works on the use of acids, acetic, lactic and formic although the acetic acid was stronger than the 5% you get in cider vinegar. Cider vinegar has been used by many beeks as an additive to syrups with no known ill effects, so one would think it would be ok if bees were dribbled with a solution of vinegar and sugar. As far as the organic side of the equation I personally do not care what is used as long as mites die and bees do not.
Johno


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Just confirming what is said above, acetic acid is not a powder. 

Vinegar is acetic acid at about 5% concentration. It used to be commonly available as a photographic supply in "glacial" concentration.

Formic acid does control mites. I've used it once. It is being sold for biofuel production. It is also a liquid, and smells somewhat like vinegar. Ants use it in their stings. There's some mixing to do, and it can be hazardous, but it can be used without a heater you need for OA. I used a West Virginia University procedure. Supposedly this stuff will kill varroa in capped brood, so one treatment does the job.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Here in Portugal some beeks use citric acid from lemons, squeezing them on the frames, and with good effects in phoretic varroa and without contraindications (visible at least) on bees.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Hi Phoebee, 
Yes I also use formic acid, I have about 5 gals of it in my bee room refrigerator. I have been using formic with the Amrine and Noel fume boards for about 3 years, but I have found the results of formic acid to not be consistent so also use OAV which also is not a silver bullet. I have a number of nucs that do not have their entrance big enough to get the vaporizer into so might look at doing a dribble onto them as soon as I get the next day over 50*, so I might just try vinegar and sugar on one of them.
Johno


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

johno said:


> so I might just try vinegar and sugar on one of them.
> Johno


Just so I understand this. You're going to pitch some random mixture of vinegar and sugar together and pour it on the bees in one of your nucs?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Beemandan, the normal dribble is with about 4% of OA dissolved in a 50-50 sugar water solution which I intend to use on 5 of my 6 nucs that I have been unable to use OA vapor on. The 6th nuc I will try a dribble of 4% solution of vinegar and sugar, at about 5 milli litres per gap depending where the bees are. I do not think vinegar is any more toxic than OA, so we will see.
Johno


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

You can make a shim for your nucs and vaporize from the top if the vaporizer won't fit in your opening.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

snl said:


> You can make a shim for your nucs and vaporize from the top if the vaporizer won't fit in your opening.


What might this shim look like? If using a vaporizer it would need to sit down upon something hard that wasn't in touch with the bees but would have to allow the vapor to pass down to the bees. Just trying to get my mind wrapped around it as i've a few NUC's that could stand to use this with.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Use an inch or higher rim with an opening for the vaporizer. You can rest the vaporizer on a small piece of al foil on top of the frames. If you have plastic framed, sit the vaporizer on a thin piece of plywood. Put the top back on the nuc then vaporize. I would just use one gram.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

drlonzo said:


> What might this shim look like?


They used to and probably still sell a three sided shim to use with a West hive beetle trap. One of those would work. You ought to find pictures in a bee supply catalog. For a nuc you'd need to cut down the back piece to fit as they were designed to fit a ten frame hive.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

johno said:


> I do not think vinegar is any more toxic than OA, so we will see.
> Johno


I can't imagine what you base this on. All acids are the same? Not so. I'd take a cupful of bees in a container with a screened top and test it on them before I'd commit a full nuc.
But....that's just me.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

enjambres said:


> I doubt that vinegar fed to bees at a concentration that would be palatable and safe for them could change the pH of the hemolymph sufficiently to deter mites while still being safe for the bees. It's not a perfect analogy, but hemolymph has some of the same functions as our blood and no doubt it also has a pretty tight normal pH range and if that was altered significiantly it would impair or destroy its normal functions. In other words even if you affect the pH of the hemolymph to deter or kill the mites, you'd likely also kill the bees.
> 
> Although that would end your mite problems!
> 
> Enj.


I think enough ACV or acetic acid to do a one time treatment would result in pickled bees. The bees normal diet (honey) has a slightly acid ph. Sugar water has a slightly basic ph. The vinegar in the sugar water, reduces it's ph and so reduces the ph in the hemolymph. 

I don't think this treatment by itself, any more than screened bottom boards, sugar shakes or drone trapping by itself is enough to eliminate the mites. I think a combination can reduce the mites below the level at which we need to treat.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

snl said:


> You can make a shim for your nucs and vaporize from the top if the vaporizer won't fit in your opening.


 I only had one hive where the appliance would not go through the opening. I could have just removed the entrance reducer, but instead i just stuck the appliance under the SBB in that hive.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

If you google" acetic acid varoa control" you will find a paper published in 2005 by Higes, M. Martin Hernandes, R. and Meana. A. where trials were conducted on the efficacy of various acids on varoa mites by the dribble method. Only OA seemed to work for them although other researches got good results with Formic and Lactic acid treatments. Acetic acid had no more mite fall than the untreated control hives. That tells me all I need to know. The nucs I have been unable to treat are some that I built with a 3/4" hole for an entrance that do not have a screened bottom, I had problems with virgin queens returning to under the screen on a number of occasions so no longer do screened bottoms on my nucs. I do have a 3" hole in the bottom that is screened and I have tried to vaporize through that but saw no vapor in the second box so feel it was not successful there was a great deal of OA crystallization on the screen on the bottom, so I believe vaporizing fro the top would also not give good results. That will leave me with options of making a shim and try to vaporize between the 2 boxes or dribble.
Johno


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

johno said:


> I had problems with virgin queens returning to under the screen on a number of occasions so no longer do screened bottoms on my nucs.


johno I do not use them but I am considering buying a few hundred. Can you give some more details about this problem? Thank you .


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Hi Eduardo,
I make my own equipment and find on normal hives the screened bottom board is useful in some ways
1) you can see the mite drop on the insert under the screen after treatment.
2) during the heat of summer 35-36*c it helps with the cooling of the hive.
3) during the winter I can leave the insert under the screen to try to prevent heat loss due to low temperatures and high winds down to -16*c
However if the hive is being superceded I now leave the insert in place because on about 5 occasions I have found the new queen under the hive with some bees drawing comb while the rest of the hive is broodless
With my queen rearing nucs a virgin queen is put into the nuc every 3-4 weeks and with screened bottoms the risk of losing the queen under the mating nuc is higher so I no longer screen the whole bottom of the nuc and leave only a screened hole for ventilation and drainage. the other problem I found with screened bottom on the mating nucs was that when fed syrup through the top cover the syrup would drop down to the screened bottom and attract robbing bees.
Johno


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

johno said:


> However if the hive is being superceded I now leave the insert in place because on about 5 occasions I have found the new queen under the hive with some bees drawing comb while the rest of the hive is broodless
> With my queen rearing nucs a virgin queen is put into the nuc every 3-4 weeks and with screened bottoms the risk of losing the queen under the mating nuc is higher so I no longer screen the whole bottom of the nuc and leave only a screened hole for ventilation and drainage. the other problem I found with screened bottom on the mating nucs was that when fed syrup through the top cover the syrup would drop down to the screened bottom and attract robbing bees.


A queen coming in from her mating flights perceives the smell of bees under the screened bottoms. A virgin queen in return from her orientation flights make the same "mistake" . You interpreted the situation as I am playing or do you think the reason is different?
Yes this case that you report puts me thinking. Thank you johno.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Yes Eduardo, it could well be that approaching the landing board with an open screened bottom the hive scent could be stronger from the bottom. My hives are on stands so the bottoms are easily got to from the underneath and are quite sheltered so queens seem to be quite happy settling there. I generally notice a falling off of activity at the hive entrance and when inspecting find many bees but no brood and when I get to the bottom brood box with some frames out I see the pattern of the comb through the screen, it is not easy to remove all that and capture the queen without harming her. The hive is obviously set back as there is no young brood.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

johno said:


> View attachment 14817
> View attachment 14818
> My hives are on stands so the bottoms are easily got to from the underneath and are quite sheltered so queens seem to be quite happy settling there.


My hives are also on stands about 30-40 cm from the floor . It is also very likely that this will happen to me in hives that are breading new queens. I have two friends who are beekeepers and using those screened bottom. I'll ask them if they have ever confronted with this problem. Good thing I noticed what you wrote before making this investment.:thumbsup:


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

snl said:


> Use an inch or higher rim with an opening for the vaporizer. You can rest the vaporizer on a small piece of al foil on top of the frames. If you have plastic framed, sit the vaporizer on a thin piece of plywood. Put the top back on the nuc then vaporize. I would just use one gram.


Going to be making a few of these for the Long Langs i'm building now. Think i'm going to set them up like Lauri Miller's feed shims till I can set the vaporizer on the wire mesh under the lid and have it just sit in the upper vent hole to the outside. Thanks snl for the basic thoughts.


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