# Yup, messed up again...



## Jayoung21

Maybe its just me but sg of 1.102 seems a little high, Its been a while since i have made any wine and ive never made mead but from what i remember the yeast has a hard time getting started w/ that much sugar. Maybe mead yeast is more tolerant than the yeast i used to use. Either way, if that air lock is a bubblin' i guess all is well. Keep the temp stable and be sure the yeast has plenty of nutrients, happy yeast makes good alcohol


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## sqkcrk

And probably not to bad a vinegar either.

I don't see how anything drinkable can come of this. I'm surprised an engineer would try something like this w/out measuring anything and varying so much from the directions. Good luck.


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## Luterra

1.102 is perfectly reasonable for wine yeasts - depending on what yeast you used it may even ferment too dry. You can use any ratio of water to honey from about 6:1 (very weak) to 2.5:1 (very strong) and get a drinkable product. For myself, I usually use 4 gallons of water and 1.5 gallons (18 lbs) of honey, which yields a SG a bit above 1.130 and a very strong (~15% alcohol) mead. If you don't out-sugar the yeast by starting with a high SG you may need to either stop fermentation early (sulfite) or sulfite and backsweeten when fermentation is complete to get a desirable level of sweetness. What type of yeast are you using?

For fermentation it is helpful (maybe even essential) to add yeast nutrients, especially if the SG is high, since honey is not a complete nutrition source for yeast. My protocol, adapted from the experts at GotMead.com, is to add 1 tsp each diammonium phosphate and Fermaid K right when the airlock starts to bubble, then another 1 tsp each 1-2 days later (around 1.090) and another 1/2 tsp each 2-4 days after that (around 1.050).


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## Ben Brewcat

You are at serious risk if you drink this mead! The only way to safely move forward from here if to ferment to completeness, bulk age for 18 months, bottle and send me the entire batch. I will safely dispose if it . Really I don't see any problems there... if you tell us what your exact final volume is, subtract the honey volume and you know how much water you used if you're worried about it. But as noted, a little gravity either way will change things but not ruin at all. Double-pitched yeast is a pretty strong pitch with dry yeast, but shouldn't hurt anything. Maybe a little yeast bite... rack it when primary activity slows and watch your process from here out .


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## Acebird

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Mead/Mead002.jpg
The yeast is Lalvin D-47 and the recipe called for 4.5 gal of water with 12 to 18 pounds of honey. We used 15 pounds of honey and this is a six gallon carboy so we can’t be too far off from the 5 gals it should yield. Take a look at the photo.

The bottle of cider is looking real good right now. It cleared up a lot in just a couple of days.


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## Luterra

D-47 is a good one, and I've used it successfully with an SG as high as 1.132.


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## Acebird

Are you missing a "1" 1.032 isn,t very high? 1.132 would be high.


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## sqkcrk

Gonna bring a bottle of this stuff to the Summer Picnic Ace?


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## Acebird

Nothing is happening after 7 days. There didn't seem to be a real fermentation going like there was with the cider and nothing is coming from the air lock. I am up for suggestions or reassurance that nothing needs to be done but at this point doing nothing doesn't make sense.


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## beedeetee

What is your SG right now? That will tell you how far along you are and if you need nutrient. I have never made mead myself although I make wine every year. A SG that is very high (1.132) should be fine to start out, but the yeast might have a problem when the alcohol level gets too high. For wine, a starting SG of 1.132 would make wine with an alcohol level of above 17%. Most yeasts wouldn't make it. For mead it might be just fine though since you want some sweetness left, I think.

My son has made mead with my honey and it turned out great after waiting a couple of years. I know that he had an issue with the fermentation wanting to stop and needing to add nutrient. A starting SG of 1.102 should be just about right I would think. At least for wine it would (13.75% alcohol).


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## Acebird

From what you are telling me it is not possible to make mead without nutrients. That wasn't the impression I got from what I had read. So can these nutrients be added now or do I have to pitch some more yeast again? Are there any organic nutrients that can be used?


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## Ben Brewcat

Wait, wait, hold up the train! Before we go throwing "fixes" in, there are some other things to explore. First, the gravity readings are a good start. Many times, especially with caps like that orange one, or plastic fermenters, or other reasons, the CO2 can escape without bubbling the airlock through a small alternate opening somewhere. Since cider lacks the proteins of a mead or beer, here won't be foam on the top from devolving CO2. Try a shake-and-swirl of the carboy: it'll cause CO2 to bust out of solution and maybe bubble the airlock. If you get a vigorous bubbling, you're on the right track. I've had a good few students say that their beverage never started, when it's actually finished! It just never bubbled the airlock.

What's the temperature? If it's too cool, the yeast won't get cranking. Make sure it's between 68 and 75 or so.


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## Acebird

What the heck! I thought we had to keep it below 68.:s Here I am trying to keep it from getting warm and you say warm it up. You may have the answer. I will get back to you.


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## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> You see how things go...


Yes!



> From what you are telling me it is not possible to make mead without nutrients. That wasn't the impression I got from what I had read. So can these nutrients be added now or do I have to pitch some more yeast again? Are there any organic nutrients that can be used?


The manufacturer of your yeast says* "however be sure to supplement with yeast nutrients, especially usable nitrogen."
*
Read it here: http://www.lalvinyeast.com/D47.asp



> That wasn't the impression I got from what I had read.


Where did your info come from?



> AcebirdRe: Yup, messed up again...
> What the heck! I thought we had to keep it below 68.:s Here I am trying to keep it from getting warm and you say warm it up. You may have the answer. I will get back to you. ​


Lalvin suggests:
Moderate fermentation rate
Optimal fermentation temperature: 15
to 20°C


For the cider I'm making 60F is already warm. 46F to 53F would be ideal... but I'm doing a slow ferment with wild yeast.


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## Ben Brewcat

Many musts will ferment just fine without supplemental noots. High-stress musts (pH, gravity, etc) can require increased pitching rates and/or nutrient additions, but not always. Properly rehydrated dry yeast will take care of business most of the time.


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## Acebird

Yeah 59-68 degrees F. Thanks for the link.

Here are the results:

Just a little swish got the air lock blurping but I took a sample anyway because I had the tube sanitized. SG did not change much @1.081 and near as I can tell the temperature is 67 degrees. Taste was superb which was a pleasant surprise. Nothing like I expected. Of course very sweet honey flavor with just a trace of champagne tingle. If it stayed where it is right now it would be very drinkable but I would like it to have more kick. So I guess as long as there is evidence of CO2 I should set back and let it do its thing. Right?

I could move the carboy to another spot that is warmer but it would also have more fluctuation. How much fluctuation can it handle or which is better?


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## Ben Brewcat

While fluctuation isn't ideal, a carboy can actually handle a fair bit. The thermal mass of 5 gallons means that the must will fluctuate a great deal less than the surrounding air. Get one of those cheap adhesive LCD thermometers and put in on the carboy. I apply them so that they are also volumetric measurements: place it on so the *top *of the sticker is the 5-gallon mark on the carboy. This is because the glass conducts temperature well enough that you'll be reading the temp of the liquid contents as long as there's liquid behind the thermometer.

Now you know not only what temp your beverage is (which is what really matters), but also the average temperature of your fermenting area.


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## TheFermenteer

If it's not the temperature, it might be the pH. Fermentation will lower your pH and you might need to add some base (calcium carbonate) to up the pH. Mead can be low-pH in general. You can pick up some test strips at your local homebrew store. You want it in the 3.7 to 4.6 range, but even 3.0 should be enough. Take a small sample of the mead and test it, add in some carbonate, test again, etc... then scale up to the proper amount. (Honestly, I've had luck just putting in 1 or 2 tsp into the carboy without testing too)

Also, O2 is very important in the beginning, especially for high gravity musts - yeast needs O2 in it's first phase to reproduce, then it will. I use a small O2 tank and a diffusion stone for about 2 minutes. 

If you are still a no- or slow-go on this, try mixing in a half teaspoon of nurtient and another of yeast enigizer. Add in those each day for 3-4 days after it has started bubbling, too. If you can do the O2, now would be the time (not later). 

My guess, though, is that your low pH is slowing your fermentation. Add in a little bit of calcium carbonate and some yeast nutrient, rock the carboy around to get the yeast back up. You should notice some activity in a day or two. 

You could also think about making a new yeast starter with 1 cup honey, 3 cups water and properly de-hydrated yeast (use nutrient!). Let that start bubbling (24-48 hours), then when it is very active add it into your batch, swirl around and let it go.

Cheers,
Joshua


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## Acebird

I should do another test now that it has been a month. We are not inclined to use nutrients or chemicals unless it is something like raisins.


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## TheFermenteer

Well, "yeast nutrient" is basically a combination of dried yeast cells and hulls, nothing synthetic or nasty. Same can be said about most "yeast energizers" out there. I don't use DAP or nitrogen-based nutirents as those are usually produced in some sort of chemical lab. I'm not a fan of sulfates, either.

Calcium carbonate is a naturally found mineral - it's not going to hurt you and will likely increase your mead's quality - not to mention that if it is a pH issue (which I'm betting it is), a few tsps of calcium carbonate could mean the difference between a fully-fermented mead and some watered-down honey.

I would avoid raisins at this point - while they will increase the nutrients in the solution, they will also add more sugar and effect your pH further. 

More yeast never hurt, really - it will all settle out in the end!

Best of luck!


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## Acebird

It has had two packets of yeast already so is the yeast nutrient going to help if it is primarily yeast? I will have to get a test kit to check the PH.


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## TheFermenteer

I misspoke (or miss-typed). Yeast nutrient is usually a form of phosphate that delivers nitrogen to the yeast cells, increasing their hardiness, energy and longivity - basically making them better yeast cells, but also providing nutrients needed for the yeast cells to multiply and do their job (eat sugar and make alcohol). Yeast Hulls (another form for nutrient, and often labeled as nutrient) are good in soaking up auto toxic by-products that might be inhibiting your yeast, as well as strengthening the cell walls of the live yeast.

Other good products are Fermaid K (a yeast energizer, basically yeast nutrient, yeast hulls and other minerals/vitamins/etc that help increase yeast activity) and Go-Ferm (another blend of nutrients, this one usually added while re-hydrating the yeast before pitching, but still a good nutrient to add in small quantities if you have a stuck fermentation).

One thing to realize with these products is that you're adding a very small amount relative to the finished batch, it all settles out in the end, and they are used by most hobbyists - it doesn't harm your finished product or add any toxic or weird chemicals.

Here's a good article for you: http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Wine/Resources/problemfermentationandyeasthulls.htm

I'd try the yeast hulls, fixing the pH and you will probably be alright. If not, move onto the nutrient and energizers.

For the pH, just get some test strips - no need to get a big expensive kit (unless you want to, of course). You just want to make sure you're in the right ball park.

Cheers,
Joshua


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## Acebird

Our whole premise for making mead is to avoid phosphates so that ain't going to happen. I will have to see where we can get some test strips.


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## TheFermenteer

Yea, I hear you. Yeast Hulls are a good option, though - they are all-natural and will help your stuck fermentation. That and the pH.

Good Luck!


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## Gypsi

I'd start with a 1 gallon recipe and perfect it from there. As a matter of fact, that is what I did, in 1987, using ye olde fleischmann's yeast. No one complained til one of my grown daughters tried to make a slightly dryer version last year. Vinegar has more sweetness than her mead, but I think it got used in pot roast recipes in place of cooking wine. I didn't get an SG meter til I started my reef tank. Let me know if you want a simple recipe.


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## Ben Brewcat

TheFermenteer said:


> Yeast nutrient is usually a form of phosphate that delivers nitrogen to the yeast cells, increasing their hardiness, energy and longivity - basically making them better yeast cells, but also providing nutrients needed for the yeast cells to multiply and do their job (eat sugar and make alcohol). Yeast Hulls (another form for nutrient, and often labeled as nutrient) are good in soaking up auto toxic by-products that might be inhibiting your yeast, as well as strengthening the cell walls of the live yeast.
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Joshua


Be careful about additives: many are called one thing but actually contain what you'd usually expect in something else. Many "nutrients" are actually just hulls, some are concoctions of things yeast need for strong replication, some are actually "energizers" which is totally different.


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## Acebird

Most of what we read about mead says to stay away from bread yeasts so we did. Much of what we read said it requires patience which I have. The local brew store is a good distance from us so I won't be going there for test strips so maybe I can find something online. After the holidays we can take another sample and if nothing else we will enjoy the honey water. It is starting to clear and show quite a bit of sediment in the bottom of the bottle (about 2 inches).


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## whiskers

Don't take this as a recommendation, My knowledge of mead making could be written on the head of a pin with a magic marker. Egg shells are about 95% calcium carbonate, the other 5% contains calcium phosphate and magnesium carbonate. Posters above are suggesting calcium carbonate and phosphate so crushed eggshells are a potential source. Somebody else please say if this is appropriate.
Bill


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## Acebird

Yes, please do because we have plenty of organic egg shells.


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## BMAC

If you continue to have difficulty with fermenting out your mead without using nutrients you might be better off making a braggot. The braggot will have zero issues fermenting out and you can make them fairly mead like if you do it correctly. 

Also I found with meads is they love being stirred every day to work out all CO2 for about the first week and a half.

Good luck. Let us know your progress.


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## BMAC

whiskers said:


> Don't take this as a recommendation, My knowledge of mead making could be written on the head of a pin with a magic marker. Egg shells are about 95% calcium carbonate, the other 5% contains calcium phosphate and magnesium carbonate. Posters above are suggesting calcium carbonate and phosphate so crushed eggshells are a potential source. Somebody else please say if this is appropriate.
> Bill


That would probably depend upon how fine you crush your egg shells as what they offer at the brew shop is dust. I smash my egg shells with a mallet to feed back to our chickens. That is of course after we baked them to sanitize the shells.

You know back in the day (before scientific measuring devices) they used to boil the mead with eggs in them. I believe the purpose of that was to tell when they had ample honey in the water as the eggs would float. Maybe doing this also boiled off enough nutrients into the must for proper fermentation.


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## Acebird

Hmm. Seems as though the boiling would reduce the SG so it would be harder to float the egg.


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## BMAC

It completely makes sense heating up the must will reduce its viscosity. I don't think it would affect its SG though the two are definitely related in how they are measured. Not ever experimenting with it its hard to say how accurate they were as measuring honey as we are now. It was in a history of mead section of some mead making book I once read. Im pretty sure they boiled it in with the honey and water. 

It is possible they just used it prior to boil as well. again its been a while since I read the book and I never wanted to put eggs in my booze.


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## Acebird

I like pickled eggs and beer.


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## Acebird

TheFermenteer said:


> You want it in the 3.7 to 4.6 range, but even 3.0 should be enough.


Progress update:
Last night we tested the batch (finally got the test strips). The PH was between 3.5 and 4.0 based on the color chart and the SG was 1.034. If I am reading the hydrometer right that should be around 9% alcohol and indeed it does have more kick. It almost has a champagne fizz to it on the first taste. I am not a favorite of champagne but this stuff is tasting good. My wife says by the time this batch is finish we will have nothing to bottle as she slugs down the second glass.
It is still on the sweet side and it smells like heaven but it is still coming down so we are going to let it sit.

Other unrelated fermentations:

The hard cider we didn't check last night but the last time we did it was hard.
The organic apples fermenting to make vinegar is pure vinegar.
And the rutabaga slaw is well on its way.


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## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> Hmm. Seems as though the boiling would reduce the SG so it would be harder to float the egg.


:no: Boiling evaporates water and _increases_ the SG of the wort. You should know that.


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## Acebird

You are right. As I see on my hydrometer when the temperature goes up you adjust the SG to the plus side. I am not sure I understand that. If a fluid expands it seems as though the SG would go down not up.


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## BeeCurious

You are right... but you need to realize it.

You are correcting your reading to the standard temperature for comparison.

Colder liquid is more dense. Hydrometer floats higher... 
Warmer liquid (molecules farther apart) , the hydrometer sinks lower.

Adjust to 60°

You're right... just think about it.


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## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> You are right. As I see on my hydrometer when the temperature goes up you adjust the SG to the plus side. I am not sure I understand that. If a fluid expands it seems as though the SG would go down not up.


OK you initially mentioned SG and _boiling __in the same sentence_. Anyone familiar with home brewing knows the constant issue of hitting your target gravity after the boil and loosing water to evaporation. In the context of home brewing, SG goes up when you boil. 

From a thermal expansion aspect, you are right. When you heat a liquid it expands and the SG goes down. But IMHO (and here is where I always get into trouble with the homebrew mavens out there :lookout SG changes due to thermal expansion just aren’t worth worrying about. Mainly because a typical homebrew hydrometer is a really crappy instrument and is realistically only accurate to maybe 2 to 3 gravity points (0.002 to 0.003), if that. Secondly, the temperature correction tables that are found on every homebrew site ever put up on the internet lists correction factors out to 4 or 5 significant digits. So now you are tacking on unnecessary and useless digits to an inaccurate measurement.


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## Acebird

BeeCurious said:


> You are correcting your reading to the standard temperature for comparison.
> 
> Colder liquid is more dense. Hydrometer floats higher...
> Warmer liquid (molecules farther apart) , the hydrometer sinks lower.


Yes, I haven't lost all my marbles yet.

Nabber, I look at the readings as relative so I don't care really how accurate the hydrometer is. As a relative instrument it is quite accurate. Is the temperature correction scale necessary? Not really, until you get to the last reading.

I have a question for the gurus: If you are happy with your creation is there a way to stop it where it is without dumping chemicals (mostly phosphates) into your batch? Does bottling it keep it from fermenting more?


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## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> Yes, I haven't lost all my marbles yet.
> 
> Nabber, I look at the readings as relative so I don't care really how accurate the hydrometer is. As a relative instrument it is quite accurate. Is the temperature correction scale necessary? Not really, until you get to the last reading.
> 
> I have a question for the gurus: If you are happy with your creation is there a way to stop it where it is without dumping chemicals (mostly phosphates) into your batch? Does bottling it keep it from fermenting more?


Or measure all gravities at or near 60 degrees and never worry about temperature correction again (that's what I do). If the wort is hot, I put the hydrometer jar in the frig and take a reading when it is near 60. The added benefit is that is really close to most pitching temperatures anyway. If the must it too heavy do a volume calc, and add boiled and cooled water to lower the SG. If too light, do a volume calc and add more honey. Or dont worry, relax and have a homebrew.

Stopping fermentation w/o chemicals? 2 things come to mind: radiation treatment and pasturization. I am sure your fear of chemicals extends to radiation as well, plus it is impratical, so we wont go there. 

Pasturization works, but most people claim that it degrades the taste of the final product so they wont do it. You also have to be really careful about creating "bottle bombs" if you dont kill all the yeast. Personally, I would never try it for both reasons stated above (and I have scars to remind me about the exploading bottles). 

Why would you want to stop the fermentation anyway? Why not just let it finish out and drink what you get? It's not like it is going to get any worse. If it fininshes too dry for your taste you can always add lactose to sweeten it up. That is of course you do not consider lactose to be a chemical.


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## BeeCurious

Phosphates?



Santa brought one of these to my house:

http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/H...avity_0_0005_Divisions_Plain_Form/EW-08298-65


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## Acebird

Nabber86 said:


> That is of course you do not consider lactose to be a chemical.


Keep talking nabber, what is lactose? I didn't know it was a sweetener.
Radiation, no way.


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## Nabber86

Lactose (milk sugar) is not fermentable to an appreciable amount. You can add it to beer/wine/mead to make it sweeter. You can get it form any homebrew shop. I bought some years ago to make a Sweet Stout. (Dont know what I was thinking at the time because I prefer my berverages dry).

Lactose can add body and mouthfeel, so if you add too much you could end up changing properties other than the sweetness of your mead. The nice thing is that you can add a little at a time to samples of fininshed mead until you find what you like. But think of it as a band-aid until you have tweaked your recipe enough so you get the residual sweetness that you really want naturally. 

I have heard of people adding saccharin or other such nonsense to boost sweetness. But even I wouldnt recommend that.


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## Acebird

I have always enjoyed a mouthfull... Oops that is something else.


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## Ben Brewcat

Bottling does NOT stop fermentation. Neither does sulfiting or adding stabilizer such as sorbate, unless you totally nuke it. For these reasons it is MUCH preferred to design the recipe to finish fermenting at the level of desired dryness/sweetness. Alternately, one could chillproof it (keep it cold enough for long enough that all the yeast flocs out so it can be racked and then stabilized).


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## Nabber86

Mr Brewcat is right on target. The absolute best way to go about the process is to tweak your recipe until you get the results that you want naturally, letting the yeast do it's job. You also have to realize that several properties in the finished product are mutually exclusive. Just try brewing an ultra super sweet mead that has the viscosity of water, an SG of 1.010, and is low in acohol content.

Although I do like the chilling approach as a method to retard yeast growth and preserve sweetness in your trial runs until you get the recipe/process all worked out. I would also possibly add microfiltration followed by indefinite cold storage prior to consumption. However that would take time, money, and energy. I am an energy ***** and have 2 extra fridges in my basement devoted to activities other than food storage, so I couldnt care less. But those looking for a low carbon footprint would have to dig a deep root cellar or find a cold cave spring on their property in order to even attempt this more "natural" approach. 

Maybe we should also back up a bit here. From the age of the OP (mid November), I would expect that the sugar reduction rate in Ace's mead is reaching asymptotic conditions by now from a qualitative human taste standpoint. Sure the fermentation process can ultimately go on for many more months on a microbial basis, but the apparent flavor profile will probably only change slighty and for the better. Might as well roll the dice and see how it turns out. 

Oh and Ace, was that "mouthfull" comment a typo or a Freudian slip? Not that there is anything wrong with the latter ....


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## Acebird

Nabber86 said:


> Might as well roll the dice and see how it turns out.


What are you trying to tell me here, leave it be or rack it and go for another mouthfull?


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## Nabber86

Acebird said:


> What are you trying to tell me here...?


Dont worry, relax, and have a homebrew.


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