# SMR hybrids



## Sherpa1 (Dec 10, 2005)

I would like to hear from someone who has experience with the SMR hybrids; "Smart Italians" (SMR x Italian), "Smart Russians" (SMR x Russians). What characteristics and traits have your observed and how do these colonies compare to the SMR and pure Russians? I am interested in having bees that have some resistance/tolerance to Verroa. Which would you recommend for a beginning hobbiest BK, planning to have 2-3 hives? Would it be OK to have more than one type at the same location or would this cause problems between the bees? Thanks.

[ December 24, 2005, 06:19 AM: Message edited by: NoviceBee ]


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

My freind has SMR and Russians from glenn apiaries. He's Crossed them and I have recieved one of them as a gift. I can't remember if the queen is smr or russian crossed with the other but her daughters are SMR X Russian and i'll be raising queens from her this year. By what my friend says about them is that they are a little more aggresive then usual, they are average honey producers, they overwinter great, and he has not treated for mites in the last 3 years. 

I plan to raise daughters off her then. they will supply drones that are SMR X Russians then the following year raise queens from the same mother to cross with those drones. I think you can buy smart russians too and i might do this just for diversifying the gene pool.

I'm sure these bees will be great but I've also got bees that I've had in my operation for a very long time. One is carniolan and the other is star. the carni was from queens we ordered through jones and sons in 1990 and star (as we call her) was from a queen we accidentlly had in a nuc box from the mother hive, she was an italian from new zealand and we were switching this breed out but decided to keep this one and she was one of the best queens that i ever had. I would like to cross star and carni and do like what i'm going to do with the smr x russian, then cross these with each other. all this might take some years to acheive but it's fun try to make bee of your own using different genetics.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

If you can get a deal on her, good luck. this is my opinion only. I should repeat that. 

Right now, I think it's a waste of time and money. What you get when you try to buy SMR is one maybe two generations which will mate with whatever drones are in your neighborhood. The SMR trait is recessive not dominant and you will lose it.

I don't know what the breeders have in mind for the future. but I don't want to finance it by feeding my bees to the mites. Before you buy, ask how much of a guarantee you get.

Hawk


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Howdy Hawk
What is your source for the statement that the SMR trait is recessive? I am trying to learn this genetics thing and it is pretty confusing.
Thanks!


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Hawk, Gaurantee??? How about listing some of the ones you know....


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

chillard pretty well summed up my observations of the SMR mated to russians. This crossing has the added advantage of throwing pure SMR drones, and vigorous but less mite resistant daughter queens that remind me of buckfasts. My hope is that if I keep enough SMR drones around, then eventually my homegrown queens will behave like SMR's


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

>>but I don't want to finance it by feeding my bees to the mites.

It doesn't matter then does it. Queens cost money and breeders even more so and by that statment we all are feeding our bees to the mites. the only difference then is wether feeding them cheap fast food bees or gormet smrs. I had a disscussion with our provincial apiariest where he told me that the bees that have the smr trait doesn't mean that you can just leave them alone and they'll fend the mite off for them selves, but rather the mite levels will be kept lower for a longer period of time in which treatment for the mites complements the trait. but yet a freind of mine like i siad says he has not treated his smr russians for 3 years so go figure. I seen his colonies and they're great units. He told me that the smr displayed 100% resistance to varroa and the russians 100% resistance to the trecheal mite but i, the ever pessimistic, told him we'll see in another couple years if this is true and that was three years ago. so there must be something to them. I most likely will still treat with OA and formic and essential oils but i think the smr trait will be a great benefit to me as well.


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

Well I use both Russian and SMR form Glenn Apiaries. I also AI them. If you want to keep a good line with these traits intact then you have to AI the queens. If you allow them to open mate then your getting outside drones which will (one) dilute and degrade your lines or (two) improve your line by mixing your gene pool. I allow a certain amount of queens to open mate that have mothers that are AI just for this reason. So far not to bad a mix. I do keep records of the open mated queens, IE honey, pollen, size of hive, cleanliness, mite populations, winter hardy, etc. These queens will provide me with drones and queens for next time to be incorporated with the Russians and SMR bees. It is fun to do this and whatever plan you folks try out have fun with it all.  

Dan


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

AI is something I really want to explore. so far, all we are able to do is move our nucs to isolated places, usually in the mountians (there are no hives around there for 10s of miles)and bring a drone mother as well. 

What my goal is is to produce a good bee, and homogenize it so that the gene pool is closely knit. I have a smr X russian that will graft from and the queens from that graft will produce drones of a smrrussian mix no matter what drones they mate with. I will raise another set of queens the following year to replace those queens from the same smr X russian queen that will mate with smrrussian mix of drones (I'm using 50 hives for this too)so that after i'm done this and have 50 smart russian hives I can select the best ones to rear from for the next 2 years then i'll be crossing these to my star X carniolan.

you can read about my star and carni in the above post. this year i will take another 50 hives and put in cells grafted from star so i can have star drones floating around (I'll bee doing this early in the year) then later I'll rear a set of carniolans to replace them so i'll have carniolans crossed with star. the following year I will select 2 of the best queens from this batch and rear from one to replace all the other queens so i'll have carnistar drones floating around then the following year i'll rear from the 2nd queen and carni star queens crossing with carni star drones. then i'll homogenize these bees as well for the next few years.

after this is done and i have my smart russians and carni stars, I'll be crossing these two strains. I'll select the best queen of each and do a cell trade, I'll put carnistar in the smart ruski's and vice versa. I'll keep 2 of each of these and rear from one the following year and the 2nd the next year to homogenize them. then out of the hundred hives i'll select the best to rear from and as the years go on i'll just keep rearing from the best.

One thing I'm a little concerned about is inbreeding and for the all the time that i'm crossing my bees to get to my desired goal i'm not worried about inbreeding but once i've got that bee i want and i've been rearing daughters from daughters from daughters from more daughters and they'er mating with brothers and brothers and brothers and more brothers then i think there could be reason to beleive the i might have a problem with inbreeding. So i think every year i'll introduce new blood to the gene pool, most likely carniolans or smart carniolans. but thats for another post.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

I opened my SMR cross with russian nuc today and what a surprise, there not the gentle girls they were back in the fall, as a matter of fact, all the bees that were on the inner cover were on my face stinging me in less time then it would take to say VEIL!!!. I'm hoping i'll be able to breed that nastyness out of them.


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## Sherpa1 (Dec 10, 2005)

Willard,
Do you still have the same Queen that you had in the fall or did they replace the Queen?


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

it's still the same queen but because she was young and basically brand new and most of the bees in the nuc were from the old queen that made up the nuc, thats why they were probably gentler. but now it's mostly her daughters in there and there a little agressive, might be just the way the genes lined up. i don't want to give up the smr genes so i'm hoping that they'll settle down when bred to my carniolans.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

CW,

What you describe is common for a russian cross. The aggressive tendency is much reduced when temps are warmer and of course when a nectarflow is on.

Fusion


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

I ordered 5 SMR queens from B. Weaver in Navasota. I'll add comments during the year on their performance.


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## Hook (Jun 2, 2002)

I had SMRs a while back. Actually, I have 5th or 6th generation crosses from the SMR now. Probably not much SMR left anymore. Excellent brood pattern, and moderately gentle. The brood pattern has been retained, much more gentle, but alot more carniolian/feral now. A little Italian thrown in as well.

[ January 26, 2006, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Hook ]


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Hook how is the mite resistance?


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I have a breeder queen that is pure SMR bred to russian drones. This colony rapidly went from a pretty heavy mite load to barely detectable levels in the autumn. They produced minimal surplus honey, but seemed otherwise quite healthy.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

Aspera, how is the attitude of those bees. I too have smr queen bred to russian drones and they are becomeing increasingly aggressive and also these bees seem a whole lot smaller than the regular european bee.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

The hybrid workers tend to fly more than I am used to and run on the comb. If the brood nest has been recently disturbed they will sting. This is in contrast to my other Italians which never run on the comb, rarely "dive-bomb" and don't seem to remember the last time I handled them. The F1 queen (russian/smr bred to smr) I have produces very small workers that look like tiny Italians but act more agressive. I'm wondering what will happen in future years when the bees breed closer to pure SMR. I'm even comtemplating trying to breed some Cordovan Italian because I love bees that stay put on the comb.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

For those of you who II, how do you know that the drones you want to breed to are infact the correct drones? We all know that drones drift from hive to hive, so how do you keep them seperate?

Chillard sounds like you have your work cut out. Good luck!!


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

to keep drones seperate is a matter of keeping hives seperate and lots of drone comb and feed in the drone mothers. my freind has a yard where he has his russian drone mothers, but even though you moved bees into that yard the queens could still mate with other drones in the valley so what he does is he takes them up to the mountians where there are no bees for miles literally 10's of miles in the logging areas, just to get to these sites is a 20 mile drive from the main highway.

once the smr cells are ready he screens the drones out of the hives he will use for nucs with an excluder and scratch any drone brood. he'll bring the nucs and drone mothers up to the mountians and put the cells in the nucs. 

I have to tell you that this works awsome just by judging the uniformity of the bees. setting up controlled mating sites like this is the alternative to using AI devises, the only thing is that AI is a heck of a lot faster to acheive the goal of the bee your breeding for. this set up he is using is only being used until he reaches the desired bee for wich he intends to breed.

now look at this set up. Say you have 50 hives in a yard and those hives have a real mix of bees. everything from italians to carniolans to caucasians and you want to get smr's in them. how would you do this? Well, let me tell you. you would rear SMR queens from your SMR breeder and requeen those colonies with those cells. now these queens will breed with all those different non-SMR drones so her daughters will only be 1/2 SMR, BUT NOT HER DRONES, they will be SMR. the following year you would rear queens off another SMR breeder and requeen those same colonies, SMR queens crossing with SMR drones and if your still worried about other drones from someones neighboring hives then stick a drone frame in every couple of hives and keep them well fed so the couple of thousand drones from your neighbors hive has to compete with the tens of thousands of well nurished drones from your own. and bob's your uncle.


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## kc in wv (Feb 1, 2006)

>He told me that the smr displayed 100% resistance to varroa and the russians 100% resistance to the trecheal mite>

If I had my choice I would take Varroa resistance


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

I really do agree, kc


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

That's one reason why its nicer to have an SMR queen bred to russians than the other way around.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

Thats what i have, an SMR queen crossed with russian drones. I was talking with my freind who had given me this queen and he said that the SMR were aggrissive and the russian were the gentler ones. But one thing is that SMR is not a breed of bee but rather an aquired trait. from what i understand is that you can breed this gene into any line of bees by selective cross breeding. If i wanted to get that trait into my carniolans, then i would cross breed the SMR to my carni's and look for the most hygenic hives from that cross, then i'd cross them again to my carni's and look again for the most hygenic hives. I'm not sure, but I would assume that the SMR trait is dominate more so then recessive. another thing is that if one group of hives have aquired that trait naturally and/or by selective breeding then other hives, maybe even your own can develope a resistance to the mite where they can detect and remove pupa that has mites in them thus preventing reproduction of the mite.

I just read a paper on this and aparently there are 2 genes that are involved to make this trait work. there are tests that you can do to see if your colonies are hygenic thus having somewhat of a level of SMR depending of the outcome of that test.here's a good sight to visit for references. 

http://members.aol.com/queenb95/smr.html#anchor586297

it's full of links.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Chillard

Very good discerption of how to keep drones seperated, thank you.

How much more aggressive are these bees? Lets put it on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being the gentlest Italians you've had, and 10 being pure AHB (or pure scut).
I would also like your observations on the following:
Distance they prusue from hive
How they Greet you
Running on frame
Bouncing off vail
Honey Production
Brood rearing min vs max frames per hive
AFB restiance
Mite restiance

I'm sure that I or someone else on here can come up with some more. Answer as many as you like, thanks.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>where they can detect and remove pupa that has mites in them thus preventing reproduction of the mite. I just read a paper on this and aparently there are 2 genes that are involved to make this trait work. 

This sounds more like the Hygenic trait and not the SMR trait. SMR is, I think, less understood as far as the genes and the mechanism and the traits precisely. Hygenic is releted to two different genes. One to do with detecting and opening and the other to do with removing the affected brood.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

well peggjam, I think i'd rate them as 6 or 7, depending on there mood. It seems that when i open the cover they get excited a i'll have about 15 of them come out the innercover hole and it's like there all flight and no bite at first, but they always get up my sleives or in my jacket (fly and crawl on me displaying that defensive behavior). I've had worse bees then this before though, i've just been spoiled i guess with gentler bees for the pass few years. if they see me walk in front they're out nipping at my ankles and they'll pursue even into my porche wich is about 30 feet away. when i do start to take frames out, i have the smoker just a puffing for all it's worth and still they're on my veil and not just bouncing but butts curled and chewing on the screen with that "bzzzzzzz" sound that i'm sure we've all heard at one time or another when we've had a bee caught in our hair. since i got this colony in the fall i don't know what her abilities will be like but i'm going to evaluate her through this year.

MB, That is true, here's another link i think you'd be intrested in.

http://esa.confex.com/esa/2004/techprogram/paper_16131.htm


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Hello All,
The problem with trying to make general statements about SMR and Russians is the number of lines which have been released.

Two SMR lines are released to Glenn Apiaries each year. A guess would be over ten lines have been released. I bought two II queens of the red & yellow line four years ago.

The new Russian bee breeders assn. being formed ( AHPA Convention last month)say they are trying to keep pure 17 lines which have so far been released.

Genetics are a funny thing. Tim Tucker (Pres. KHPA) crossed his best Italian line with a Russian line and the new line had severe chalkbrood problems. He called me asking what happened as both lines had never had chalkbrood problems. The Russian line was the blue line of which I have got three years experience with over a hundred colonies. I never saw a single cell of chalkbrood in those hives.

"Beekeeping is both simple and complicated at the same time"


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Whats the brood pattern look like Bob? I'm looking for a queen that lays a good, full brood pattern that isn't AHB.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I'm fairly new to the use of SMR bees and was just wondering if anyone here can offer some comparisons between the recent releases and the ones offered in 2003 or earlier. Do they seem improved, or just more genetically diverse?


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

I heard that the name SMR was being officially changed to VSH or Varroa Sensitive Hygiene by whoever controls such things. I had thought that the hygiene aspect was only part of the SMR picture. I have read where "early cocooning" also plays a role. This is where SMR bee larva will spin their cocoons while the mite is still dormant in the larval food (before it attaches to the bee) and pins the mite between the cell floor and the cocoon. From everything I've read, as MB said, we actually understand very little about how the SMR trait actually works.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>The SMR trait is recessive not dominant and you will lose it.


I hadnt realized that the SMR trait was recessive. And if that is the case, then boy, we are going to have trouble trying to express this trait open mating our queens, while breeding our own stock. There is just too much diveristy amoung our beekeeping neighbours.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The fact that the SMR trait has to be expressed through the route of hybrid breeding takes all its practicality out of my equasion. 

Like mentioned before here, just a mear generation from its parrent looses its characteristics. Unless you are a beekeeper who routenely requeens all of their stock every year, a hybrid queen is not what you want. After incorperating that hybrid queen into your stock and seeing its outstanding hightend trait, by not continually annually renewing that trait by requeening, your stock will not carry any of its inital bred characteristics. In fact, I would argue the queens to start displaying unwanted characteristics and may perform worse than what you originally had.

Anyone breeding from hybrid queens better take a second look at what they are doing. Breeding hybrid requires speciallized work.

I grow hybrid crops, It only takes one generation of open pollination to take all its characteristics away. 
For growing crops it is practial, extra money spent on the seed, rewarded with huge yeilds. And most all the inferiour open pollinated volenteers are controled by crop rotation.

In a bee hive, the genetics you incorperate are in most cases intended for prodigy. Unless there is a vigouious requeening program in place, all the hybrids mothers are deemed to produce inferiour daughters. And if their characteristic qualities follow the same priciples as second generation open pollinated hybrid crops, they will not perform at all like their mothers. It is here where many problem start to arise. Sutch a focus on breeding to highlight few traits, masks all other traits, good or bad, which are expressed in later generations when the hybrid highlighted traits are no longer expressed.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

The above posts are all very informative, but what I was hoping to know is whether the SMR is changing or still the same as 3+ years ago. My understanging is that the USDA releases new line every year, but I'm not certain how "new" these lines really are.


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

As GaSteve mentioned the SMR has changed to VSH. Not because the bees trait has changed, but to more accurately describe the trait its self.
When Dr. Harbo/Jeffrey Harris found the trait it was unknown why there was a reduction of mites in the brood.
This is why they named it SMR (suppression of mite resistance). Since Marla Spivak and associates were able to document how this trait actually worked as a Varroa Specific Hygenic (VSH) behavior the name has been changed to reflect accuracy.
Frank Wyatt


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

i always thought that SMR stood for suppressed mite reproduction because suppression of mite resistance sounds like the resistance to mite is, well, suppressed.


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## NW IN Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2005)

.


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## Hook (Jun 2, 2002)

CW said-->i always thought that SMR stood for suppressed mite reproduction because suppression of mite resistance sounds like the resistance to mite is, well, suppressed.


Reply--> It does stand for that. The gene is easily bred out of them though. I had two SMR's and they were great. I have about 8th gen queens now. The SMR is gone, but they have a great brood pattern, so I kept them. They very well could have developed a new version or something, but I'm continuing to develop my own feral mixed mongrols.


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## bourdeaubee (Dec 23, 2005)

I guess I am a little confused here.How are these bees considered hybrid. How is it any different then what takes place in nature.Feral stocks cross with anything they can get there little stingers on and look at some of the great things that come from them.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Part of the confusion here is that no honeybee is truly domesiticated, and every bee not actively being keep is referred to as a feral. As far as I can tell the primary difference between ferals and domestic stock is that one is actively selected for it gentle nature, and the other is selected by the whims of nature. I don't think there are any significant genetic differences between feral and domestic population (think of stray cats, volunteer tomatoes and mustangs), except possible that ferals are outbred vs. inbred.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

-- As far as I can tell the primary difference between ferals and domestic stock is that one is actively selected for it gentle nature, and the other is selected by the whims of nature.

------->

Reply:

The difference according to Erickson.is that populations of domestic honey bees are the product of extensive artificial selection for honey production and characteristics of economic value, and therefore vulnerable to the pressures of natural selection.

Where as the moment a domestic honeybee colony becomes wild there is extensive pressures of natural selection towards traits that contribute to survival, reproduction and fecundity (colony fitness). Research had found a significant relationship between many fecundity characteristics and most colony measures of fitness, and Brother Adam states that Fecundity is an essential prerequisite for any exceptional performance. 

So the foundations for exceptional performance would likely exist in many of the remote ferals. As the whims of nature would have it, traits that contribute to colony fitness are exactly the traits that are needed and actively strived for in many domestic breeding populations today, because many of the traits affecting fitness and fecundity are essential for disease, parasite resistance and traits of economic value in honeybee colonies. 

Perhaps, natural selection is not that whimsical after all.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Given our rather limited ability to prevent interbreeding between wild and domestic populations, honeybee selection was slow at best prior to the advent of II. Controlled reproduction is a prereq for domestication. The Indian elephant and the reindeer are prime examples of exploited captive or semi-domesticated populations. I would place the honeybee among them.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Probably the Africa provides the strongest example of wild honeybees. Most of these critters do not lack for production, disease resistance or fecundity, but are temperamental by most accounts and difficult for even the locals to manage. My point is not to say that we haven't been selecting honeybees for a long time, but rather to show the importance of isolated breeding areas and II. Some of your comments on the resistance of survivor stock (another thread) made me wonder if you felt that isolated apiaries didn't exist, while some of your comments on artificial selection imply that we must have had them for a very long time.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Good points Aspera! I believe there are very few isolated breeding apiaries that exist, this has been shown in studies that drones do get into the mating sphere of isolated apiaries. That being said, as in the remote ferals I occasionally discuss that are showing some interesting traits. Perhaps you need not have total isolation or II to achieve remarkable success. Perhaps, all that is needed is to tip the balance in your favor. 

From casual observation, it seems that total control over breeding is not needed to achieve the desired results. Ferals as little as 2 miles into the woodlands are showing traits different from that of others caught nearer to other beekeepers. With the abundance of voids that would likely exist in the woodlands, I could imagine that breeding sphere is relatively dominated enough so that for example long distance foraging and other traits that are relatively specific to woodland ferals are developing.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

<Perhaps you need not have total isolation or II to achieve remarkable success. >

I also believe this, but the problem is that I don't have a large enough apiary to saturate the area with SMR drones. I was thinking of offerring to raise some queens for my neighbors to achieve this, but I think that it could still take decades, by which time I will have moved. It is unfortunate that hygienic genes don't act in a simple dominent fashion.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

MB, did you know that Marla Spivac tested SMRs and found them to to be slightly more hygenic than her bees. The last time I spoke with her she was planning to incorporate them into her program. Interesting about all of theses desirable recessive traits. Over time we could see natural selection force a genetic drift, perhaps. There are large populations of bees heterozygous for thses traits now, so we should see the traits expressed in a percentage of future generations naturally. Fecundity rules.
JBJ


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

JBJ, I tested my ferals for hygienic traits and found 60% tested at least 90% hygienic. My non hygienic bees were requeended with hygienic ferals. So the trait seems to be expressing naturally in the feral population. 

For a colony of bees to be found hygienic only requires that 13 to 50% of the bees to carry the genes for the behavior. This may explain the wide range of degree of expression of hygienic behavior, from hygienic bees on up to SMR or VSH which where explained by Marla Spivac to be hygienic behavior to a higher degree.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Aspera, I started my hygienic testing and other evaluation techniques as a way of determining the best colonies in my operation for breeding. From there, I select from the best and requeen the poor performers to get them out of the gene pool with feral stock that has been tested the previous year. Over time, I hope to gain enough genetic influence to control breeding to an acceptable level. According to a talk with Dennis, State Inspector, you only need about 60 drone source colonies to exhibit acceptable influence over the breeding, and many others say you need a minimum of 50. But by selecting and keeping only the best bees with the traits you want, you can begin over a couple of short years to influence the genetics of the ferals around you. Ferals where always a driving force in breeding bees in Pennsylvania because they are so abundant, and their fitness adaptations the PA climate make them an important aspect breeding bees here I am finding hygienic and other desired traits in the ferals which makes them valuable part of my breeding, in affect flooding the area with the genetics I want and diluting the domestic genetics.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>MB, did you know that Marla Spivac tested SMRs and found them to to be slightly more hygenic than her bees.

Yes, I did. She presented that at the KHPA meeting.

>The last time I spoke with her she was planning to incorporate them into her program.

I think she said this is already in progress.


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## Murphy (Jun 7, 2005)

The part that bugs me is if you buy a "Hybrid" at say $20 it basicaly ties you into replacing queens every year to keep these desirable traits.
If you have a large apiary this is not really cost efficient. 
Second peeve is all the talk by breeders of Isolated apairies. What, do they all live on islands.

Unfortunately this with AHB is gradually forcing breeders to II.

Just my rambling....

Kieran


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

It doesn't tie you into anything. Not replacing the hybrid just means accepting that if she is superceded, you will have a new queen that is producing workers with feral genetics.


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## bejay (Jan 14, 2005)

if you dont replace the queens wouldnt you just lose the smr and russian resistance to mites by allowing the queen to be superceded naturally.
plus whatever hybrid vigor they may of had from an f1 or f2 cross.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

The drones of the SMR mother are exclusively SMR drones and her daughter queens are three way hybrids (russian/smr mothers mated to whatever drones). It is often stated than the SMR heterozygotes have an intermediate level of resistance. Also, I'm not really sure that the Russian mechanism of resistance has ever been worked out genetically. I suspect that its related to many traits including frequent brood cycle interruptions. The "Smart" bees that you buy are usually the daughters of something like the SMR x Russian cross. Unfortunately, I haven't observed any hybrid vigour in the workers of my SMR x Russian queen. Maybe they spend too much time being hygienic, and not enough foraging. No bee can do it all.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I am a little confused here.How are these bees considered hybrid. How is it any different then what takes place in nature.

Artificial insemination. Or a very controled breeding environment.
Allowing open nonrestriced mated provides a mutch diverse queen mating.

>>Not replacing the hybrid just means accepting that if she is superceded, you will have a new queen that is producing workers with feral genetics. 

Yes, but not expressed, for we are talking of the ressessive SMR trait. And it will not be expressed as long as the superceeded queens continue to mate in a very diverse beekeeping environment. How will you continue to propagate a hidden trait? It means continual stock renewal, or dilution with drone mating colonies. 


Try growing a crop from a open pollinated Hybrid crop, and you will understand completely.
Not only do you loose all the hybrid vigour, all the neglected unwanted traits start expressing themselves.


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## Focus on Bees (Mar 6, 2006)

Hey does anyone know if Minn. Hygenics are a recessive or dominate gene ?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>is often stated than the SMR heterozygotes have an intermediate level of resistance. 

maby meaning that there is a dominant gene, perhaps tied to the resessive SMR traits, that are contributing to the tolerant behaviour.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

I took it to mean that there is partial penetrance of the trait. Another example of partial penetrance would be to cross a red and a white flower and obtain offspring with pink flowers. Since more than one gene is involved with SMR, my thinking might be muddled on this


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Minn. hygienics have a subset of the SMR genes which are now reported to be a form of varroa specific hygiene (removal of infested brood). The Minn. hygienics have been selected for honey production and mostly come from top producing commercial queens incorperated into Dr. Spivak's breeding program. She states that they have some level of varroa resistance but still require regular treatment or prevention.


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## Bill Ruble (Jan 2, 2006)

Ok, I understand that the recessive SMR trait will disappear becuase of out crossing. But what you have to remember is that after a few years of using recessive traits, those same traits begin to appear agian in later generations and become more and more common when mites kill off the bees that don't have those traits. Recisive does not mean the gene is gone just because it disappears for a generation or two. It can come back espcially if we continue bringing in new queens with the trait to pass on to the ferral colonies in the area.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>But what you have to remember is that after a few years of using recessive traits, those same traits begin to appear agian in later generations

I agree, as long as your neighbours follow your breeding program.

Tell me how many queens are bred and sold into and around North America now. Many of the breeders arnt focusing on the SMR at all, but trying to exploite other traits for mite tolerance. 

As I understand it, SMR and alot of the grooming hygenic behaviour traits arent related at all.


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## LaRae (Apr 29, 2005)

As I understand it, SMR and alot of the grooming hygenic behaviour traits arent related at all.

Ian
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Hey Ian can you clarify what you mean?

Thanks!

LaRae


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Isnt the SMR trait linked and only linked to infested brood removal?


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## LaRae (Apr 29, 2005)

Isnt the SMR trait linked and only linked to infested brood removal?

Ian

Canadian Beekeeper


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Hmmm I don't know but wouldn't a hygenic bee, be hygenic about everything, not just mites?

I have always understood the whole reason for working with hygenic type bees (Russians etc) was due to the mite issue.


LaRae


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

SMR is a phenotypic trait linked if multiple genes. My understanding is that all SMR bees possess the hygienic behavior as measured by Taber, Spivak and others. The inverse is not yet true of the Minnesota Hygienics but will be soon as Dr. Spivak is incorperating SMR into her breeding lines. What is not clear to me is the relationship between SMR genetics and the ARS Russian lines. I'm geussing that the Russians also possess the SMR genes but also have a higher brood viability due to less inbreeding


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