# How many bees could a beekeep keep if a beekeep could keep bees??



## bobber128 (Jun 6, 2010)

3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406286208998628034825342117067982148086513282306647093844609550582231725359408128481117450284102701938521105559644622948954930381964428810975665933446128475648233786783165271201909145648566923460348610454326648213393607260249141273724587006606315588174881520920962829254091715364367892590360011330530548820466521384146951941511609


:applause:


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## Bradley_Bee (May 21, 2008)

I'm managing close to 200 right at the minute. working a forty hour + work week. I'm guessing I can do close to 1000 without hiring someone on. Maybe more. Maybe double that. I'm pretty ambitious though.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What's your standard of living? $50- 60,000 AGI? Do you want to keep it? Don't give up your day job. Or marry a nurse. Quite a few beekeepers that I know are married to nurses. In other words, have a second income coming into the home so you can maintain.

I keep around 600 cols. Work at it full time, but not as much as I should, perhaps. Produce, package and distribute to stores everything my bee hives produce. Not a bad life.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Bradley_Bee said:


> I'm guessing I can do close to 1000 without hiring someone on. Maybe more. Maybe double that. I'm pretty ambitious though.


You must be. That's what it takes to be successful w/ 1,000 cols. But I'll bet you can't handle more than 500 or 600 by your self. I wouldn't recommend it. What if you broke your leg or got bit by a snake? Which I guess could happen w/ 200 or 20 even.

If you do do 1,000 by yourself you most certainly will need a skidder, truck and trailer.


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## Bradley_Bee (May 21, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> You must be. That's what it takes to be successful w/ 1,000 cols. But I'll bet you can't handle more than 500 or 600 by your self. I wouldn't recommend it. What if you broke your leg or got bit by a snake? Which I guess could happen w/ 200 or 20 even.
> 
> If you do do 1,000 by yourself you most certainly will need a skidder, truck and trailer.



your on. how much would you like to wager?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

First of all, let's understand that I wasn't being aggressive. I just know guys who do work 1,000 cols and more and they don't do it by themselves. Five hundred per man is about right.

Secondly, is actual wagering allowed on beesource?

Thirdly, if you are serious, I'd like to know your terms? How are we to settle the bet? When will you have 1,000 hives and how long do you have to run them, by yourself mind you, no help at all, not even the wife and/or kids, before we say "You win."?

Fourthly, how much would make it worthwhile to you?

Remember now, I am a beekeeper and therefore, by definition, don't have really deep pockets.


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## McSpin (May 25, 2010)

Bradley_Bee said:


> your on. how much would you like to wager?


Some guys are stressed by 40 hour weeks. Others have energy to spare after putting in 120 per week. I'm betting you're closer to the latter category. One thing I've learned in life is that some can accomplish many times the average if they are sufficiently motivated and smart in how they go about it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, and don't hang out too much on the computer. 

See ya.


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## GeorgeBL (May 23, 2010)

40 bee hives for hhobby, or second job.
200 for first job.
in Greece.


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## knpeterson (May 18, 2009)

I thought I wanted 15 hives but I think I've changed my mind. I know thats just a drop in the bucket for a lot of you! lol! I have four right now and I am realizing that especially while they are building up they are a lot of work! I have so many irons in the fire as it is, I don't think I need 15. I think 7-10 might be my max. Between work, grad school, farming, gardening, farmer's market, and just normal house chores and bees....I have my plate full. At least I'm off for the summers though. I've decided once I hit my max, when I need to split, I'm gonna make nucs and sell them locally. Very few people keep bees in my area but many are interested. I guess it would be a good way to get some started.


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## BeePuncher (May 25, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> What's your standard of living? $50- 60,000 AGI? Do you want to keep it? Don't give up your day job. Or marry a nurse. Quite a few beekeepers that I know are married to nurses. In other words, have a second income coming into the home so you can maintain.


...or marry a teacher, I knew of many beekeepers who were - not only a second income but summers off....lots of spare time to fill!


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## knpeterson (May 18, 2009)

BeePuncher said:


> ...or marry a teacher, I knew of many beekeepers who were - not only a second income but summers off....lots of spare time to fill!


That would be me...but I don't have an issue with spare time. I'm pretty good at getting rid of any I might have.


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## beekeeper1756 (Mar 20, 2010)

This is my first year and I'm quickly closing in on day 60 as a beek. I purchased four hives, captured and kept 5 more and captured a swarm for a grand total of 10.

My wife says "enough".

I may have to wait until next year to do splits, etc.

With the job I have, 10 is enough...for now


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Tara, are any of these posts giving you an answer to your question?

I would ask you, how many do you have now? How much time are they taking you? And how much time do you want to devote in the future? If you really like beekeeping it can fill up all of your spare time and income. If you let it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have a day job, a family, horses, raise queens and run 200 hives... but I had to simplify my beekeeping a lot to get there:

www.lazybeekeeping.com


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

This thread makes me angry!!! I have been walking around outside trying to say the title 5 times fast.....and its driving me nutz!


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

By yourself as a sideliner with a full time job-100-200 colonies if you know what your doing and you got a few years under your belt with bees already.

I'm only running 700+ this year. I had help making splits this spring(30 hrs from 1 person) otherwise I do it all myself. It's a little hectic doing all the extracting by myself. Last year I was up to 950 hives but ended the season with 744. Again that year I only had a little help in the spring and did the rest of the season myself including the extracting. Needless to say after the season was done I didn't feel like doing anything for about a month while my wore out body and mind recouperated(SP?).


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Speeling is fine, as far as I can tell. 
Did you do anything else during the season, like family stuff and relaxation or recreation?

"Leer Family Honey Farm", so the family all works together like lots of family farm situations?


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## beebiker (May 5, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> What's your standard of living? $50- 60,000 AGI? Do you want to keep it? Don't give up your day job. Or marry a nurse. Quite a few beekeepers that I know are married to nurses. In other words, have a second income coming into the home so you can maintain.


hhhhhmmmmm, ya know, if a fella was smart he would marry two nurses and give up the bees entirely .
seriously thou, alot of it is going to depend i suspect on how much time to have to get established. it takes years sometimes to develop your yard areas close to home and build up your bee count. the less time driving to the yards and nursing sick bees the better.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Both my girls play ball so I go to 3 games a week. We fish 2 days a month during the summer than I am on vacation for 4 months.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Bradley is either busy or thinking about our wager or thinking better of our wager.


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Wow! Thanks all for the replies!

To answer your questions...

My 'standard of living' right now would be improved if I left my office job and lived out of my truck shoveling manure (I hate offices). Really, its about $45k a year (after paying a double mortgage on a house thats up for sale now) in the DC area. (Read $$$ cost of living) I don't mind living a bachlorette lifestyle, and spend more money on power tools and garden supplies than I do on shoes and clothes.

If all goes well, I'll be getting married in the next year or soon thereafter--my boyfriend said he dosn't really care how much I make, so long as I keep busy and 'am happy'.  So while income isn't a HUGE deal, it would be nice to bring something in--might help his tolerance of house-bound propolis and all that!

Right now I have 1 hive. Yeah, I know. But I can't leave it alone long enough to let them do their thing, so I've got a July split on order, and if both survive the winter I hope to make a spring split and a fall split and come out with 4 hives + 2 nucs next fall. My life circumstance and how I'm handling 6 will decide my next move...whether or not I take the next summer to do several splits to get to the 40-50 range. I know its possible to 'split up' faster, but I dont' want to overwhelm my meager skills with my number of hives.

Beebiker: What do you mean by 'developing your yards'? Getting standard customers for pollination/people who let you keep your bees on their property? Or getting good bee lines going and understanding how to keep them healthy?

And since EVERYONE makes mention of how little beekeepers make, what should I be expecting if I kept 200-300 hives and did reasonably well? $25k per year? How about good years vs bad years? What are your standard expenses? For those of you in the 50 hive range, about how much do you pull in (before/after expenses) on good and bad years? 

Again, thanks to all who posted! Everyone's perspective helps me get a better idea of what's POSSIBLE vs what's LIKELY.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Beebiker: What do you mean by 'developing your yards'?_

Finding good yards close to home. Some yards produce more than other yards. It takes time to weed out the underproducing yards, and time to find the better producing yards.

_And since EVERYONE makes mention of how little beekeepers make, what should I be expecting if I kept 200-300 hives and did reasonably well?_

How do you plan on marketing your honey, and what will the market bear?

Everyone's expenses are different. Some people like fancier (and more expensive) equipment than others.

Some people sell their honey in bulk for $1.60 a pound. Others sell their honey retail for $5, $10, and sometimes pushing $15 a pound. Comb honey production can often fetch a premium price. Some people develop a good market, and find it easier to buy $1.60 honey, bottle it, and sell it for $5 or $10.

If you make 10 nucs from every hive, and sell the nucs for $100+ each, you can make good money there....if you have a market for the nucs.

The people that make the real money beekeeping know how to produce, and they have a good marketing plan. It often seems like you have more control over your marketing - you are often at the mercy of the bees and the weather for production.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

beekeeper1756 said:


> This is my first year and I'm quickly closing in on day 60 as a beek. I purchased four hives, captured and kept 5 more and captured a swarm for a grand total of 10.
> 
> My wife says "enough".


Wifey has not said that yet. We started with 2 got bored increased to 6 still bored went to 12 into the winter. Came out with 7 add 22 packages only 18 worked out ok. Bad queens so merged them. added 15 swarms so far I think. So we are up to 35 hives. Still fun. Wife seems to be ok with it. My oldest is my partner in it. Nine year old girl dabbles but, is usually too scared to get stung. I am thinking we will close the year out with 50 or so. Got enough frames for 500 and boxes for 75. We keep making nuc in our spare time. Will have 7 producing hives for honey this year if it improves any here. Next year will have a <blank> load of honey to deal with 40 hives after losses coming through the winter.


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## Reid (Dec 3, 2008)

Tara said:


> a) How many hives can you reasonably keep while still working your 'day job'? 20? 50? More?
> 
> b) If you quit your day job, how many can you manage comfortably for a small business? (I'm thinking mostly honey production, maybe some pollination and nucs on the side, but not full-time breeding/selling bees)
> 
> c) At about what number do you absolutely have to hire a second person to help you out (not counting your spouse)? Or at what time of year, and for how long?


a) Of course it depends. I started out with 2, went to four, and after this spring of intensive (for me) swarm capture and removals I'm up to 15. With a job, wife, kids, dogs, garden, chickens, house, hiking, hunting, fishing . . . 15 is where I'm stopping for now. After a couple more years I might up that a little, but only after learning how to do more with less. I've got no more time to give.

b) From what I both hear and read, is something around 200 hives.

c) No idea. I hope to never get there. 

~Reid


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## Bradley_Bee (May 21, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Bradley is either busy or thinking about our wager or thinking better of our wager.


Hah. How about just a gentlemens bet. I'm not to big on wagers and theres not much I think we could bet on , but i will say this - give me five years and I will be over a thousand. Here's the thing. I already Help run an operation well over a thousand. I'm the fourth generation behind my family business. I help my dad and uncle and also maintain my own hives. I work a forty hour work week compressed into 3 days due to my jobs ability to do swaps. It leaves me with 4 days a week to work bees in which I do diligently . I order queens every year , make splits , catch swarms , do cut outs and set traps . Now that I'm at 200 , its much easier to increase than when i was at say 20. I have all the equipment I'll need . I've got a stack of old frames and boxes bigger than a house waiting to be re-furbished. 1000 seems like a large number to tackle on your own , but if you were in my shoes I guess you'd see it a little differently.


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

knpeterson said:


> I thought I wanted 15 hives but I think I've changed my mind. I know thats just a drop in the bucket for a lot of you! lol! I have four right now and I am realizing that especially while they are building up they are a lot of work! I have so many irons in the fire as it is, I don't think I need 15.


Heheh, oh to remember when I said I wanted 10 hives. I had 3 at the time. The number 10 came and went so friggin quick that I was like "ok, 20 will be my max". Before I knew it I had 23..."perhaps just 25?" Nope! "Well maybe when I get to 30 I will sell 5 off." I sold 2 hives and each one felt like I was selling one of my kids. Well maybe I'll just continue to 40? 50? I'm sitting on 49 right now and have more extractions and swarm calls coming in all the time. Thankfully my wife is VERY supportive and has NOT said "ENOUGH!" Though she doesn't help me either. I have had to neglect certain things in life in recent weeks just to keep going, I have a ton of things to do around the house that don't include bees and most weeks I don't get to them at all. My wife has not bugged me about those items either. She knows I am trying to get this operation up and running and small business are like babies, they require a lot of time, and a lot of $. She is actually very proud of the fact that I have made it so I do not draw any $ from our household account. I even fill up my truck more times than not with bee $. Though as 50 looks like its going to come and go very quickly, I will say this: "My regular job is getting in the way of my beekeeping!" I thought when I was done with this last extraction, I was going to take a break, til I realized "I'm out of equipment.....again!" So another extraction job so I can get more stuff....this is more addictive that crack! It's a vicious cycle so far. Don't get me wrong, I like it, its keeping me VERY busy and for the most part out of trouble. My help comes in the form of my 5 year old son and 8 year old daughter, which ususally is slower than if I just did it myself, but I love that they try, plus someday if either one of them keep bees, they will be a 4th generation beekeeper. If this takes off good enought that I can leave them a business, then all the better. There are times I think I'd like to hire a little help, but the $ just isn't there for me yet. How many hives do I think I can handle before I need help while keeping my reg job? I hope to get to at least 250 by the end of next year with no help. I am sure hive management will be a lot better when I am not chasing bees everywhere and I can just set myself a sched to follow for checking on hives at other locations. Another thing that I am proud of is I am doing it without the use of credit. No loans yet, thought my crew cab diesel is killing me in fuel, I am going to look for a used mini pickup, I hope to pay cash for that too, but we shall see what happens.

C2


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## beebiker (May 5, 2009)

Beebiker: What do you mean by 'developing your yards'? Getting standard customers for pollination/people who let you keep your bees on their property? Or getting good bee lines going and understanding how to keep them healthy?

country boy answered this fairly well, but to add more (at least in my case) in wyoming we are limited as to how many hives and hive location. here we cannot have a "beeyard" within 2 mils of someone else's yards. your laws may be different ( and probably are). this is compounded by the fact wyoming is a high desert with limited water availability on the open range. ideally one would want to have their hives close to home on a creek with lots of nectar producing plants within flying distance. most good spots have been taken years ago.
as far as the health i was referring too try to keep your yards away from places that are sprayed with insecticides and such. I know how tempting it is to fiddle with them all the time when you only have one hive, this will soon pass (kinda like a hangover) once you have a few yards 

beebiker


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## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

I'll throw in my $.02: I have a full time job (40 hours per week) and currently have 704 hives. I do 99% of the bee work myself, and the family helps at extracting time. I send 1 semi load to CA & WA to pollinate almonds and apples, and make 3 trips over the winter to CA to work them (that's where the majority of my vacation time goes).


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

Gregg said:


> I have a full time job (40 hours per week) I do 99% of the bee work myself, and the family helps at extracting time.


40 hours work week? Check! 99% of the work myself? +1% and that will be a Check!  Family help at extraction time? (insert crickets chirping here) Maybe someday my son will, he's at least more interested in my bees then my daughter. The wife? I love her dearly, but she wont go near the bees, she's not anaphylactic, but she does swell up something fierce, so I don't blame her and am always telling her to stay away from the bees...if something is near the hive that needs to be gotten, tell me, I'll get it! I would rather take ever sting ever meant for her or my kids. My son got hit the other night, I've told him, stay away from the bees and never swat at them if one does get near ya. What can I say, hard headed kid never listens, wonder where he gets that from, must be his mom??  Well, I guess we shall see if he cuts them a little more room from now on or if he'll continue to follow me as i fearlessly walk past the hives in my shorts and short sleeve shirt...Least if I get hit, I know what to expect and I have nobody else to blame buy myself. Maybe the people at my reg job are right, I am crazy.:lookout:

C2


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## knpeterson (May 18, 2009)

Batman you were getting a TON of swarm calls this season!! No wonder you built up so quick! Thank goodness I didn't get that many or I'd really be whining. Its hard to turn down free bees though!!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Tara said:


> And since EVERYONE makes mention of how little beekeepers make, what should I be expecting if I kept 200-300 hives and did reasonably well? $25k per year? How about good years vs bad years? What are your standard expenses? For those of you in the 50 hive range, about how much do you pull in (before/after expenses) on good and bad years?


ROTFLOL!! Oh my Gawd. My ribs can't take it. I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing at the idea.

If you saw my Profit and Loss From Farming Attachments to my annual income taxes for the last ten or twenty years you'd be glad to have your desk job. 

All of the answers to the questions you pose are individually dependent on the person and the location in which their bees are kept and so many other things. Were there a simple answer to your questions alot of people would never try and many still would.

You are the best answer to your own questions. Get back to us w/ the answers in another 20 years.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Bradley_Bee said:


> Hah. How about just a gentlemens bet. I'm not to big on wagers and theres not much I think we could bet on , but i will say this - give me five years and I will be over a thousand. Here's the thing. I already Help run an operation well over a thousand. I'm the fourth generation behind my family business.


 Hah. I've already won. Admit it. 

It's a deal. Gentlemens bet. Now where are we going to find two Gentlemen?

I wish you the best and expect to see you at ABF or AHPA in the near future. Looks like you arewell on your way. You have a good start working w/ your Dad and Uncle and still liking bee work. I bet you could show me a thing or two.

It's been fun sparring w/ you.

You guys w/ the full time jobs and 700 hives or more make me want to go back and delete all of my posts.

You see Tara, it depends on the person running the operation.


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

_ROTFLOL!! Oh my Gawd. My ribs can't take it. I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing at the idea.

If you saw my Profit and Loss From Farming Attachments to my annual income taxes for the last ten or twenty years you'd be glad to have your desk job. _

... Well that's why I'm asking. I'm trying to get an idea of the span across many people's experiences, in different areas. If what I suggested is outrageous, well, that's why I suggested it--so you know how little I understand. Are you laughing at the thought of quitting my job, or at the thought of pinning a number on something that varies every year?

I intend to quit my desk job anyways to do something where I actually see the sun once in a while... money means less to me than living a life worth having. I intend to keep bees regardless of the answers I get here... I'm just wondering if its really worth considering as a business for making any cash, or does it just (sometimes) support itself.

If I offended anyone by asking how much you make keeping bees, I apologize--I figured very few of us actually go by real names here, so I didn't think it would matter much.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No Tara, if anything I'm laughing at myself. I shouldn't have written that first line, I guess.

It must be my english. We have a saying back in the old country that when translated into English goes something like this. I am only responsible for what I say, not what you hear.

You should ask. You should have some idea of what you are getting yourself in to. It is not for the faint of heart or mind (as in my case, I guess). Keep asking. Keep learning. But seriously you are really the only one who can answer the question because you are the one who will either do it or not or not as much as you might think now or maybe more.

I'm sorry if I was insensitive. That's me, I guess.


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Oh, no worries! I was just trying to figure out bee-culture humor! Like I said, I'm a COMPLETE newb here, so I don't even know what's funny. 

Really, I shouldn't even be asking questions like this here in my first 1 month of beekeeping, but like I told my BF the other day, I'm addicted to planning. I'm like a chicken.... spitting out one per day, whether its viable or not... if it happens to hatch, great!

I really do appreciate hearing everyone's experiences so far. Thanks all!


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Tara-
You will see the sun and the moon a plenty in this line of work. For the last few months I have been helping my son in his bee operation until he can find a good replacement. Since I am retired and don't require too much of a salary I am beginning to suspect that I am in it for the long term. 
Seems like we are always in some wild place - often very late at night (moving bees) - often encountering some pretty neat creatures (bears, turkeys, deer, possums, *****) this part I really enjoy. But I will tell you that it is very physical work, so I hope you are young and very tough (Strong would not hurt either) Just this morning we were deep in a Carolina Bay(kind of a eutrophied swamp) building a big bear fence, the heat index must have been 105 - thought I was gonna die.
Also would not hurt to be a mechanic - you would not believe the time we spent working on trucks, trailers, and bobcats - something always gets broken. I know that whenever he makes any money it always seems to go back into equipment - just last week $1200 for a new clutch in a GMC Flatbed... couldn't deal with that ourselves.
Another thing - you best be driven!! I know he is... sort of a single minded desire to see the business succeed. Maybe obsessed is a better word. The main benefits as he sees it is "Dad, I do not work for the MAN!!" - guess that is pretty good thing (I worked for the man for 36 years)
And lastly... it is best to be single - don't know how he'd make it married... maybe if he found a single minded, obsessed bee keeper....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

We better try and sugar coat these answers or we're gonna scare the poor girl off. Or maybe her boyfriend if he ever reads any of these. 

A little humor there Tara.

I know, very little. 

Night, night.


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Oh, please DON'T sugar coat! (I prefer honey...)

hpm08161947--thanks for the details. People in general scare me more than wild animals, and the government scares me more than both. I grew up on the borders of National Forest in Oregon, hauling wood to keep warm in the winter and trying to coax half-grown bear cubs out of trees in my spare time (yeah, I know...) I've packed heat thru Baghdad in August when it was 120F out, and hot as a bee suit is, it ain't worse than digging a hole at 5,000 ft in full chem gear, sucking thru a gas mask! Worse than any of that, though, is trying to satisfy politicians who don't want to hear what you have to tell them.... so your son's sentiments about 'not working for the MAN' are well heard! 

Hmm...I know next to nothing about fixing vehicles, so I guess its time for a few classs there!

Being driven... we'll have to see how well I do with that. Thanks for the warning--I'll try to keep a reign on my enthusiasm and attempt to contain my expansion until I know I can handle it. I don't have 36 years in, but I have enough to make me sure I want to get back to the earth--whether I'm raising bees or shearing sheep or selling veggies, its a lot closer to what I want.

Being single? Well...my BF loves honey. He'd inhale it if he could metabolize it instead of oxygen...I can probably buy him off


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Work your way up to 100 hives. If that goes good for you dbl it to 200 and run them for a year. If you are still enjoying it jump to 400. After running 400 for a year you will know if you will make it or not with 600-800 hives. Hopefully(really not) you will have a bad year with 400 hives and that will be the deciding factor. Getting to big to fast and having a bad year can be heart breaking(and bank breaking). If you survive that bad year with a good taste in your mouth you got it made.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Sounds like Tara has got the tough part covered.... guess now is the time to get some experience. You can make a living doing this - nothing fancy, but you can eat - at least he does. Just don't expect to be buying new pickups every year (Yea - you best like pickups). Truthfully we know guys who make a pretty good living in this business - of course they have been in the business all their lives - the start up part is the tough part. Also notice how I have used the word "business" - this is very much a business. Good luck.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Tara, the expenses are all up front, for the most part. It will help if you become a wood worker, and learn how to make your own hives, except for the frames. That keeps you busy in the winter time. Good luck to you!
Steven


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## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

Just grow slow, you will know when you hit your amount. Everyone is different. I started with 2, then 6 then 12 and for the last 3 years been hovering around 25 hives. I have all the fixins for another 15 but don't tell the better half. If you get the the point its not fun, back off a little.

have fun


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

StevenG said:


> Tara, the expenses are all up front, for the most part. It will help if you become a wood worker, and learn how to make your own hives, except for the frames. That keeps you busy in the winter time. Good luck to you!
> Steven


Took a year of woodworking back in school... Cutting out rectangles, routering the ends, and slapping them together at right angles with some glue and crown staples is easy enough, but what kind of tools do you need for the handhold cutouts and finger joints? Or are finger joints overrated? Right now I'm getting my medium supers (finger jointed, white pine, no knots in the fingers) at 8.75 each unassembled. It was the cheapest I could find, and is local enough for pickup. About how much would you save on that just buying the wood?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> ROTFLOL!! Oh my Gawd. My ribs can't take it. I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing at the idea.


After a nights sleep, what I should have said was, "Ah, youth."

We good, Tara?

Take some small business classes and bookeeping classes. The sb guys know theory and generally what works, but question them. Find out what real world experience they have had.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Tara said:


> Right now I'm getting my medium supers (finger jointed, white pine, no knots in the fingers) at 8.75 each unassembled. It was the cheapest I could find, and is local enough for pickup. About how much would you save on that just buying the wood?


About $1.50. Problem is most don't have anyone close and shipping unassembled is horrific IMHO. I build my own and I can get 1.5 boxes from a 1x8x8 for just under $8.00. Now, i can throw them together pretty quick. The other day I cut 4 meds and a Nuc from 3 8ft boards. If there was a local place near me, I would buy them for $8.00 and NOT build my own. I can do a finger joint, but I don't.


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

$8.75 for mediums is not too bad. I build mediums for about $4 each, out of yellow pine. Tara, the edge is not routed. That is called a rabbit joint. Not much strength to it, You have to glue and use some sort of fastener.


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

Chick said:


> Tara, the edge is not routed. That is called a rabbit joint. Not much strength to it, You have to glue and use some sort of fastener.


Yeah, I meant routering for the frame rest on the short ends. 

I use outdoor wood glue and 1-1/2" crown staples to put my boxes together. But IF I were to build my own, I was wondering if taking the time for finger joints vs rabbit joints was worth the extended longevity.

Uh...guys? I'm not feeling harassed, insulted, or anything else of that nature so if that's what the discussion is about, no need to worry about it.

At my place of work people tend to say 'Appearances are everything,' which I think is a load of **** that allows people to ignore their real jobs and 'look good' to the right people. I'm all for changing our local reality to reflect more of a 'Actions mean more than words' sentiment, since I'm pretty sure most of us here value hard work over fancy words. Anyways, that's my .02, and I'll say nothing more on this.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

I'm fortunate in that I found a sawmill 30 miles away that will plane my order to 3/4" thickness, and straightedge one edge. Much much cheaper than buying at local lumber yard, or big box store. 

I use 15/16" finger joints on deep boxes, rabbet on shallow supers. For hand holds, simply set the dadoe, and cut the hand holds. Then I nail a 1" or 1.5" x 1" cleat across the ends of the deeps, right at the top of the hand hold for extra holding area. Some folks skip the hand hold altogether, and simply use a cleat.

If you don't have a cheap source of good lumber, it might be more cost-effective to simpy purchase the supers.
Regards,
Steven


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

I prefer finger joints over rabbeted or butted joints. I have a decent table saw, a cheap set of dado blades and a homemade jig. It only takes a couple mintes to cut the finger joints on the hive body sides so I do it. The wood I get is free so my woodenware is free except for my time.

I cut oval hand holds 3/8" deep with a router and a thin plywood template. Gives me enough grip.

And though some here are mistaking this thread for the Tailgater forum, I'd hazard a guess that some don't care how others might talk to their wives, mothers and daughters. I do. I have no idea how that has anything to do with the subject of this thread though.

Wayne


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

If you glue the box joint, it is stronger than a rabbited joint. But, I will put my boxes, with their rabbit joints/glue and staples, up against any of them for longevity and function. And, I use the dado head to cut the rabbit joint of the box and the frame rest, as well. I built about 100 boxes this spring, like that. I use Titebond II, to glue them, and you have to take a square to check the box squareness, and make adjustments, prior to the glue setting. Once it's dry, nothing is going to matter!


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## McSpin (May 25, 2010)

Another alternative for a strong, quick-to-build joint is the one I use - a biscuit joint. A biscuit joiner and liberal amounts of glue and a couple minutes per box. The hardwood biscuit make for a very strong joint and they're super easy and fast to make.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

waynesgarden said:


> I prefer finger joints over rabbeted or butted joints. I have a decent table saw, a cheap set of dado blades and a homemade jig. It only takes a couple mintes to cut the finger joints...


I have a ok table saw, and cheap dado blades. Got the jig. My finger joints never seem as tight as I'd like them so I usually go with a box joint.



waynesgarden said:


> ...guess that some don't care how others might talk to their wives, mothers and daughters...


I for one do care. But it is no business of a third person, or fourth, or etc.. You know how many problems are caused by people who like to talk about others - even when they have to make up a problem to talk about?

Mike


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## sebee (Jul 19, 2009)

I use half-lap joints for the supers I make. They are quick and easy, and seem to hold up much better than a butt joint (and not as time consuming as a box joint). I use a band saw to do this, but it should be just as easy using a table saw.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/financial/farm/pdf/cophoneyproductioncosts1997.pdf

This link shows the same file, just scroll to bees. I could not put a link to the excel file. So if you have Excel...go crazy
http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/financial/farm/caf00s03.html

Now what you need are a few bee catalogues, IE, mann lake, betterbee, dadant and kelly,or one that is close to you...cost compare. Do not forget about shipping costs. Then fill in the blanks. This will give you an idea of the cost per colony...when you figure your cost add 25% because of incidentals and the odd thing that crops up.
Next find your state honey production average. From here, you want to deduct 20%. You ask why...because of thinngs like too much rain and too much heat. Mites that will decrease honey yields. As well, when we plan our budget, I would rather work with less, and have extra when the honey gets sold.

do not forget extraction costs. There is small tools, kitchen supplies like pails and spatulas and what ever else. There is also electricity and capital costs like depreciation of equipment

Now if you are going to sell farm gate sales...sales from your yard...you will need to add in certain other things. For example, if you strain honey so that it is really clean, you need straining cloth. It will require you to slightly heat your honey, so you need either a stove and pots or a sump system. Add in cost of jars, your time to fill

We, as home based retailers who make products to sell make one really huge mistake. And that is not incorporating the labour to make a product and a % for a profit margin. So do not make that mistake


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## bobber128 (Jun 6, 2010)

Finally, a good answer!!!! :applause:I was hoping someone here had an idea of how to figure out if this would be worth getting into, based on a cost-to-enjoyability equation!


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## Walt B (Jul 14, 2009)

Tara, I've scanned the thread and I fear your question has not been answered in kind...

A beekeeper would keep all the bees he could keep, if a beekeeper could keep bees. 

Walt


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Love it Waly.

"How many bees could a beekeep keep if a beekeep could keep bees?"
"A beekeeper'd keep all the bees she could keep, if a beekeeper could keep bees."

Now who will set it to music?


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## Walt B (Jul 14, 2009)

Several years ago, the rangers at the environmental conservation office in Avon, NY figured aout "how much wood a woodchuck could chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood". 

They were also the ones behind the Christmas Eve "citizen science" program called S.A.N.T.A. (Study of Airborn Nocturnal Translocating Animals). :lpf:

Walt


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