# Survey for causes of CCD



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

right...


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Or....you could do your own research. Here's a link to get you started. There are lots of others on this forum as well.


Rusty


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## jasson (Oct 31, 2014)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Or....you could do your own research. Here's a link to get you started. There are lots of others on this forum as well.
> 
> 
> Rusty


I do have my own research but I want the opinion of professionals to see if is right or wrong


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

jasson said:


> I do have my own research but I want the opinion of professionals to see if is right or wrong


I have no doubt you post this with the best of intentions it's just that the questions you ask push a highly controversial button here on Beesource and no one wants to fire the first shot. Run a search and do some reading.....you'll get the idea.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

okay, I'll bite Jasson,

Be sure when your talking about CCD, that you actually talk about CCD and not all of those other buzz words. CCD is a thing on its own and we can talk about it if you want. Neonics, CLimate change, and Urbanization are other separate issues. So much of the problems in the beekeeping industry get lumped under "CCD" regardless the symptoms.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Jasson, one issue that is not even on your list of _possible _causes of "CCD" is fungicides. See this link for more info:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0070182


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

You know, we have not talked about fungicide for a while... might be a good time to dive into that topic!


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Alright, I will take the plunge.

I am a 2 year beekeeper. I started with 2 hives and lost both of them the 1st winter. I have 4 hives now, very strong...Hopefully stronger than death.

1 hive was lost to swarming (absconding). Is that what you call CCD? I don't think it fits the textbook definition.

The second hive was lost (I think) to a pesticide kill. Is that CCD? I don't think that fits the text book def. either.

I'm not really sure what CCD is.

As to the neonics. The information I have been reading seems to suggest that the neonics by themselves are not so much of a problem until the beek treats for varoa mites. The neonics have destroyed the bee's immunity to insecticides. When the treatment for mites is done it severely weakens the bees. This is an effect that seems to come from the residual buildup in the combs and stores.

Mel Disselkoen seems to think that the dust from seeding and working the neonic treated seeds and fields builds up in tree sap, which the bees use to make propolis. The propolis is harvested very heavily in the fall causing the bees to die in the winter.

If you know more than you did to start with now, you should question what you think you know.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

That's the first time I heard of a sap propolis theory. Did she find accumulations in her tests?


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Mel Disselkoen is a guy. I think he just generated that theory from many years of observation. He is the owner of the MDA splitter website. He would most likely respond to questions directed by email.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

dsegrest said:


> I'm not really sure what CCD is.


CCD has very specific symtoms. Large seemingly healthy hives one week, little to no bees present the next week. Empty hives, sheets of un covered brood. Bees don't seem to be interested in robbing out the dead hives. Diseases present are Nosema, IAPV (Israeli Acute Paralysis Virus), Acute Bee Paralysis Virus (ABPV) and Kasmir Bee Virus (KBV).
Over 90% of bees injected with IAPV virus die within three to five days. 

Did I miss any symptoms? I have not experienced CCD symptoms in my apiary


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

dsegrest said:


> I think he just generated that theory from many years of observation. He is the owner of the MDA splitter website. He would most likely respond to questions directed by email.


"I think this is probably what is happening"


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Ian said:


> Did I miss any symptoms?


Queen, brood and a small population of young bees remain.


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## jasson (Oct 31, 2014)

Thanks for your help and time I appreciate.
Just one last question, so do you think that neonicotinoid are not a thread to bees or to you beekeepers, and by any chance do any of you know someone that has experienced CCD?


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Expert opinions? I don't know if any of us would qualify as experts. We're all individuals who are beekeepers with our own 2 cents. They don't mean jack scientifically though. What you're asking for is statistically irrelevant. You'll go blind and broke heading down the respective rabbit hole theories as many of these theories are married to additional agendas and biases that aren't really interested in finding the truth unless it can be useful to them respectively.

Heck, look up "Spring Dwindling Disease." You'll see it's been going on for decades if not a century or so and shows up every 15 or so years. There's debate if CCD is this under a different name. CCD appears to have disappeared as quickly as it showed up here but nothing really changed in our beekeeping or agricultural practices yet many are still beating the CCD drum as if the loses continue. This whole CCD thing is a rabbit hole. 

...my 2-cents that's undoubtedly overpriced and irrelevant.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

jasson said:


> Thanks for your help and time I appreciate.
> Just one last question, so do you think that neonicotinoid are not a thread to bees or to you beekeepers, and by any chance do any of you know someone that has experienced CCD?


Is this a paper on CCD or neonics?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Ian said:


> Is this a paper on CCD or neonics?


I've come to the conclusion that it isn't a paper at all. Neonics a threat to bees or beekeepers? This isn't a question that a serious investigator would be asking. This is an effort to engage a dialog where the op can express his opinion. Just my two cents.....and I ain't biting.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> I've come to the conclusion that it isn't a paper at all. Neonics a threat to bees or beekeepers? This isn't a question that a serious investigator would be asking. This is an effort to engage a dialog where the op can express his opinion. Just my two cents.....and I ain't biting.


Jason is a teenager doing a paper for school. I have avoided saying anything in response to his questions to avoid adding to what may be his ideas and conception of what he sees as a problem which seems to be becoming a nonissue as time goes by. I am of the opinion that CCD is, if not in our rear view mirror, soon to be a thing of the past.

As far as neonics, what are you going to replace them with? The things that they replaced?

Jason, read what Randy Oliver has to say about CCD and Neonics on scientificbeekeeping.org and on bee-L. Don't justr listen to one point of view, do a web search on all of the articles in scientific journals and bee journals,not the popular media. Popular media has its own agenda and that is to sell more magazines or television talk shows, not to further the discussion and scope of knowledge.

Best wishes.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

One thing about CCD is that it had drawn the general public's attention to the beekeeping industry unlike before. It has also provided a loose mule for lobby groups to harness.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

beemandan;1181652 Just my two cents.....and I ain't biting.[/QUOTE said:


> I think you just did  !


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Ian said:


> I think you just did  !


Yeah...but it was only a small nibble.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

beemandan said:


> Yeah...but it was only a small nibble.


ah, come on, take a bite... give it a good 12 page fight... lol


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## jasson (Oct 31, 2014)

Yeah I may not be a serious investigator but for the same reason I want to learn more I am asking you, is there something wrong with it but thanks for the time it has help me.
I understand what you are saying and I will start to see from different points of view from now on.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

did you get a chance to look at scientificbeekeeping.com? it has many references that would be helpful for your extended essay.


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## jasson (Oct 31, 2014)

I am reading it in this moments, it has been helpful and it has given me some ideas for my essay.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very good jasson and good luck with your project. the forum here has a polling feature that you might consider using to ask the question raised in your post #16. there are some crops grown in my area from seeds treated with neonics, but i do not think that they have been a threat to my bees. i do not know any beekeepers that have experienced true ccd, but i just started beekeeping in 2010 which is after the time when there were a lot of cases of ccd reported and the number of cases has declined since then. most of the hive losses that i know about are from colonies that have been weakened by varroa mites and cannot survive through the winter.


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## pmshoney (Dec 30, 2014)

jasson said:


> Hello I have decided to do my extended essay on colony collapse dissorder in bees because I think that bees are important species. I understand how importany bees are in pollinating flowers throughout the world and without them our food supply would be extremely limited. I think it is really important thet i learn more about bees and understand better the factors associated with their demise.
> 
> Please could you give me your expert opinion on why the honey bees are dying and what you think is causing colony collapse disorder.
> 
> ...


Ok let me help you save a lot of time CCD in the real bee world means> Common Colony Diseases that's the whole real truth so what is a Common Colony Diseases or sickness ? wow there is a long list . google honey bee sickness there is hard drives full of problems with bees . so to put it into plain English for you CCD is like saying Kleenex when you mean tissue colony collapse disorder is when bees die of a disorder so if my hive gets sprayed by raid and die they are a colony that collapsed from a disorder in this case it was raid a pesticide still most would scream my bees died of CCD I wish they would make a law that if you said CCD you would get 50 lashings lol it groups the problems into one category "CCD" and that like this reply I'm typing don't help the bees . this said there are lots of thing you can yourself do to help > stop killing flowering plants in your yard like white clover its not a weed even though you think people will look down on you if your yard is not perfect blades of grass that the bees get nothing from. maybe don't use insecticides on your lawn or flowering plants and don't ever spray a plant in bloom spray at night when ever possible when bees are not flying flowers the list goes on and on most are use your brain and think type things but people don't think they say oh look at this big bag of stuff I can buy and put on my lawn so it kills the bugs that I really have never had a problem with but well.... I could and it says I bag per 1000 sq ft and that will last like 6-9 months killing any bug that lands on it so its a way hot dose more than any farmer would use on 15 acres but yeah 1 bag is good so 4 bags per 1000 sq ft would be better and you may laff but I have seen it I watched a guy buy 25 bags of this stuff so I ask him how bug his yard was he said well its 50ft by 175 ft I said man I hope your on city water and your poor family don't ever take off there gas masks or step foot on that lawn


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## pmshoney (Dec 30, 2014)

Jason , don't think that we are all being smart guys or mean here or on any other page you go to but last time I looked CCD was something that happens to bees and we still don't know the root cause and some people every time they find a die out hive they say it was CCD are they wrong ? right? or did they send the hive to a lab so they know ? all they know is the bees are gone. now to why your not going to get anyone here to point fingers even if they think they know something. most all of us hear have lots of bees and a family point is we have things to lose and there is more not everyone out there in this world are as interested in doing good to earth and bees as some of us here most are drove by greed and $$$$ so someone here points a finger even if correct have things to loose and some even most of the wrong doing folks would not be above poisoning some hives or people to shut them up think I am wrong do some googling its bigger than you think billions and billions and we are just a ant on the sidewalk in there walking path. for example I saw 2 yrs ago a govt operation sprayed insecticide knowingly on 2000 hives of bees backed up to a state gamelands 98% kill of bees by the end of the next day well we got all the bugs in that valley outside the city so the ticks and mosquitos will not bite the city folks they could of called the beek to move the hives.or said we messed up let us pay for them instead they fined him for having bees within 1 mile of a city too much said already


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> there are some crops grown in my area from seeds treated with neonics, but i do not think that they have been a threat to my bees.


Here http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0014720, please see table 3.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"Ok let me help you save a lot of time CCD in the real bee world means> Common Colony Diseases" pmshoney, where did you get this idea from. Ever since the term was coined CCD has meant Colony Collapse Disorder.

Is pms in your screen name short for parasitic mite syndrome? Or your initials? Or something else?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Here http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0014720, please see table 3.


thanks eduardo. it's been a while since i've looked at that study. it's interesting that the most frequently found pesticides in the treatment comb were beekeeper applied miticides. it's not surprising that their residue in comb has harmful effects on the bees. the original poster was asking about neonicitinoids.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> the original poster was asking about neonicitinoids.


You saw table 3? 17 products found 5 are neonicotinoids (about 30%). I found this article interesting because, as I deal with Apivar, gives me confidence because they are not referred to amitraz residues or its metabolites in Table 3.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i looked at 'figure' instead of 'table' 3, please excuse me eduardo. you are correct. is table 2 saying that the neonics were only found in one set of comb that was examined, and that they were not present after the experiment? i.e. that they were less common and more short lived compared to the other pesticides?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Errrr, isn't this all data based on having introduced the pesticides intentionally?

This is not the Frasier study that looks for pesticides in hives, this is a study to look at the effects of the pesticides when they are intentionally introduced. ...ir am I missing something?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Sorry...looked a bit more closely.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

deknow said:


> this is a study to look at the effects of the pesticides when they are intentionally introduced. ...ir am I missing something?


What do you mean exactly with "effects of the pesticides when they are intentionally introduced"?
I let researchers talk about how they did:
"Experimental combs
Frames of treatment brood comb originated from migratory Pacific Northwest beekeeping operations that used miticides and from colonies provided by the USDA- ARS honey bee laboratory, Beltsville, MD that were suspected to have died from Colony Collapse Disorder. Pesticide residue analyses were performed on brood comb samples and thirteen frames of brood combs positive for high levels of pesticide residues were cut into treatment blocks (11×11-cm), each containing roughly 450 cells. Control brood combs were newly drawn out from a single colony or sampled from feral colonies that tested negative for pesticide residue contamination."


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Jason - I would include in your paper, probably somewhat early in the paper, an admonition to try to separate widespread colony die-outs from CCD. Too few of us package up 100 bees and send them off to the federal bee laboratory and find out if it was Nosema Apis, Nosema Ceranae, Deformed Wing Virus, IAPV, Varroa Destructor, Acarapis Woodsii, American Foulbrood, or whatever the actual cause(s) was(/were). *NOTE: There are many more possible causes of colony die-outs besides the ones listed here.* Very few of us have seen CCD in its original textbook form. The definition of CCD does not seem to exclude the possibility that the lack of robbing out of the depopulated colony could be coincidence.

I'm seeing another thing that has occurred repeatedly since CCD was being touted in the mainstream media - Abnormal swarming behavior. More queens being produced and not being killed by the first queens emerging, greater numbers of afterswarms - as many as six afterswarms from a single hive, swarms adopting a box and suddenly absconding (possibly due to drought conditions or lack of pollen) within 2 weeks, leaving behind 4 to 8 freshly-drawn combs and some pollen, honey, and brood.

I've heard lots of complaints about poor queen performance, early superceding, and repeated superceding. This probably means that there are more than one cause, some not even related to the queen. Many new beekeepers (and some older ones) did not recognize the extreme lack of pollen in the fall and winter of 2012/2013. Clusters were too small, and the winter was wet and cold. 60% die-offs in some areas. This coincided with a great increase in fungicide use by agribusiness people. Bees do need fungi in their digestive tract to benefit from the proteins in the pollens. Pollen is stored in the combs in a form called "bee bread", and is converted into food for raising brood. With very little pollen, and no ability to digest what pollen was available, the bees just shut down brood production, and the colonies were not strong enough to make it through winter.

I wanted to take up beekeeping since 2002, but could not find any beekeepers to teach me back then. I started in 2008, after seeing way too many dead bees, and noticing that the other pollinator insects were just not flying around much any more - no metallic green osmia bees, no bombus, no butterflies, no wasps, only house flies, really. Lots of people ask about CCD, and I have not yet written a paper. Having become a beekeeper has shown me that the United States needs LOTS of entomologists, LOTS local bee breeders, less monoculture crops, less spraying of pesticides and fungicides, and more healthy meadows and wetlands. I keep half my colonies treated under an Integrated Pest Management (IPM) program, half treatment-free, and in a variety of hive styles and sizes. Good luck with your paper, I hope you stick with beekeeping.


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## Adamd (Apr 18, 2009)

Jasson,
Your question implies that we have CCD in the UK - a myth peddled by some who would like there to be CCD here and then blame the large agricultural chemical producers. In fact we don't have CCD in the UK, yet we do have neonics - well we did until the ban from the beginning of 2014 so many of the 2014 crops that were planted the previous autumn had been treated. Some farmers are concerns about the nasties that are now developing in OSR (Canola) as a result of the ban so they will have to use other chemicals as a substitute. In the UK most beekeepers say "bring on the rape" as it's a major source of honey and their bees do well on it.


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