# My TBH and Some Questions.



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

I thought I would post up some pictures of my TBH. Granted, the body is plywood but ATM that was my option. It's 4' long by 18" deep. Internal size is 17" by 15" comb on the bars which tapers down to 8" or so at the bottom, which is a solid board with no screen. 


























Now, for the bars, I'm using 1 1/4" wide by 19" long with a 5/8" deep rabbet on each side which gives a 3/8" high ear to hang by. The bottom of the bars has a centered 15 degree bevel. I'll be using 1/4" spacers for honey bars. 

I chose that for the bars because it will fit into a standard lang hive. Are my measurements correct for the bars? I've got some cut and milled, but others are waiting to mill. Figure it'd be best to find out if I'm screwing it up now and keep from wasting bars to bad measuring. 

Another concern may be the depth.. At 15" deep, it seems a bit much to my eye.. Or am I just worrying myself? The hive will not be in direct sunlight from noon on and I'm using a piece of 1" foam above the bars and under the corrugated plastic roof, so I don't expect any large fluctuation in temps that the bees themselves can't handle regulating.

I've also got a 55 gallon drum I'm considering making hives out of. Has anyone had success with this? I'd seen it done, but never any long term data.

Last thing racking my brain is the entrance. I'm planning for sure on putting it at the end and not the side, but I'm stuck wondering if I should indeed put it at the top, or keep it at the bottom... Choices choices. 

Oh yeah.. With the legs, it comes up to my waist in height. Thinking of dropping it 6 more inches or so.. Maybe. 

So... Critique away!
Thanks!


----------



## llgoddj (Apr 11, 2012)

I also used plywood, and yours looks very similar to my finished hive, which I started last year. I just finished my second one, and am waiting to split my first hive in a few weeks. the only differences between yours and mine are the overall dimensions, both width and depth, mine being less of both. Not important other than the weight of each comb will be extremely heavy for you once laden with honey, and could lead to collapsed combs during the summer heat. Otherwise, enjoy!!


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

The size is one of the deciding factors on laying down 1" foam under the roof section. The winters are mild, but we can get some days where it's over 100 degrees.. About a half a month worth or so? So I figure a solar radiation block would be well served.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> I chose that for the bars because it will fit into a standard lang hive. Are my measurements correct for the bars?

Yes, your top bars will fit into a standard Lang body. You can find full dimensions of Lang frames here:
http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/dadant-type-frames/
Of course, if your bees do build comb 15" deep, you will have to stack up multiple Lang hive bodies to accommodate that 15". 

Whether or not that depth of unsupported comb will stand up to the stresses involved in manipulating combs in a TBH is open to question. You will need to be vigilant to make sure the bees do not make comb bridges between adjacent bars. If they connect two combs together you will probably have a collapse trying to remove the bars.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

I guess I'll just wait and see. I've still got this barrel sitting around (several in fact, get chicken feed in bulk in them) and can always whip up a quick hive out of it with the same top bar width handling, then trim and sacrifice the comb as needed to fit in the event I have to do an "aww crap" move over.

I'd been planning on making a custom hive tool as well out of a piece of rod bent over and hammered flat at the end with a double cut edge, much like Warre tools, so that it's easier to get in and manipulate any problems with attachments.


----------



## WVMJ (Apr 2, 2012)

You dont want to put tbh bars in a lang after they have been drawn out in the tbh, they will fill in the corners and when you go to take it out lots of cutting it free from both the tops, side and bottoms. I think its brilliant to grow the tbh in a lang until it gets big enough it can start touching all the sides, that woudl be a good time to add it and keep those combs from touching the sides and being a paiiiin in ass. WVMJ


----------



## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

DarkWolf said:


> I thought I would post up some pictures of my TBH. Granted, the body is plywood but ATM that was my option. It's 4' long by 18" deep. Internal size is 17" by 15" comb on the bars which tapers down to 8" or so at the bottom, which is a solid board with no screen.


My current TBH hives are 4' long by 19.125" wide by 10" deep, inside dimensions (1/8" tolerance for getting the 19" bars in & out). My prev. hives were 11.5" deep, internally, and I had a bit more collapsed comb than I liked last year (and those super-deep combs are a PAIN to handle without damaging them), so I switched to the Lang deep box depth.




> Now, for the bars, I'm using 1 1/4" wide by 19" long with a 5/8" deep rabbet on each side which gives a 3/8" high ear to hang by. The bottom of the bars has a centered 15 degree bevel. I'll be using 1/4" spacers for honey bars.
> 
> I chose that for the bars because it will fit into a standard lang hive. Are my measurements correct for the bars? I've got some cut and milled, but others are waiting to mill. Figure it'd be best to find out if I'm screwing it up now and keep from wasting bars to bad measuring.


I believe you're 1/8" short on your "ears" ... going off of the dimensions given in an earlier post in this thread, I think the ends of the bars should be 1/2" tall (that, or I messed up on about 250 bars already inch: )




> Last thing racking my brain is the entrance. I'm planning for sure on putting it at the end and not the side, but I'm stuck wondering if I should indeed put it at the top, or keep it at the bottom... Choices choices.


With my warm (96F is pretty much a record for us here), humid (I live 1mi from the coast) summers, I put all my entrances at the top of a box-end, with the theory being that the bees can then fan out the hottest air in the box more easily.




> Oh yeah.. With the legs, it comes up to my waist in height. Thinking of dropping it 6 more inches or so.. Maybe.


In my experience, when working the hive, you'll be doing a LOT of work down inside the hive (cleaning up burr & brace comb, separating bridged combs, lifting bars), and a slight bit on combs that you've turned upside-down on the top of another bar. That said, think about how far you want to be bent over the whole time you're working the hive; I put my hives with the lids hitting somewhere close to the bottom of my sternum (breastbone), and find that to give me less in the way of a super-sore back after going through & re-queening 5-10 hives! 



Good luck, and enjoy your bees!


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I think you may want to make a frame or something put some screen on it to reduce the depth of the hive. Otherwise I think you will have a lot of collapsed comb in the bottom of that hive. But it would be nice to see a bar of capped over honey that size!


----------



## TNTBEES (Apr 14, 2012)

I made a couple of TBH that were a little to deep so I just beveled a couple of pieces of plywood and dropped them into the hives and created false bottoms. I live in the mountains of Montana and still had some comb collapse in the original depth. To cold to use screened bottoms. I use multiple side upper entrances.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

See... Now y'all have me worried.. 

A false screen bottom may indeed be in order..


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I was thinking you could just drop a screen in the existing hive over top of the bottom board. It would serve the same purpose, and it would be lighter.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

Well, I've got all the bars cut and milled at a 20 degree angle on the bottom. The rabbets may be a bit tight though as I've got 1/8th inch of side to side play maybe? I actually put a 15 degree bevel at the start of the rabbets to allow it to fit down into the hive body with the tapered walls.. I think I still want some more clearance though to allow for expansion and ill fitted construction of further hives.


----------



## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

When building boxes, I consider my total tolerance on any given measurement (except box length, as you can always add/remove bars for that) to be +/- 1/16th of an inch. With that in mid, I think your "about 1/8 inch" side-to-side play allowed by your rabbets should be fine; there really shouldn't be any more wood swelling/shrinking, or missed-measurements, that change your dimensions past where that 1/8" should cover it 

As far as the false bottom goes, I don't know about your SHB population around there, but for *here*, I'd have to opt for the beveled plywood approach...put a couple nails in it, and seal any cracks with glue, to be sure. If I put a false bottom made of screen in any of my boxes, the SHB would likely kill off my hive within 3 months inch: (SHB can fit thru the screen, while bees can't...resulting in a TON of "hiding space" for the beetles to escape harassment from the protective bees)


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

I guess you're right. I shouldn't be sloppy enough to need to allow for more than 1/8th inch play in the top bars in any of my future construction.. Didn't pick up this nice hybrid granite topped table saw for nothing.... Though... I made 95% of the cuts for the body with a Kreg Rip-Cut... Oh how I would love to afford Festool equipment... 

I'd been watching for 2 years now off and on before deciding to start up, the whole debate on a screened bottom board or not. Weighed the pros and cons and decided to not use one at all. Though it helps with monitoring the hive, it doesn't truly seem to prevent or keep much of anything in check. At least that's my take on it at this moment.. Who knows what it will be in the future. 

I'm highly tempted to keep the hive this deep and see how it goes... I'd seen someone else who runs a deep TBH who had center hanging bars on his bars, so that the bars look like T's.. That may be an option to help strength the comb, no?


----------



## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

I think the "T" shaped hybrid top-bar/frame type thing would be HIGHLY recommendable if you decide to use this hive at its original depth. In theory, at least, if the center "hanging bar" is attached to your top bar well enough, and the bees attach the comb to it nicely, it should eliminate most, if not all, comb instability problems that your extra-deep TBH box is likely to cause. Of course, that's only my opinion.......


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

Might be interesting to give it a try. First saw it in use on this site, which is a really interesting site. Not sure where he is in Wyoming, but I figure there's a 10 degree difference in average temp.

The spot I chose for this hive gets direct morning sun until 11:00 or so when it falls under the shade of a tree. That should keep it from overheating due to exposure. I'm also planning on the 1" of foam near the top bars to keep the solar radiation away from the obvious week point.

I've got plenty of 1/4" cutoffs from making the rest of the bars (used 2x4s), so I can simply notch the top bars and then gorilla glue them in after dabbing the end in some water.

Just considered something though. If I put bars down the center of the top bars which are the exact width of the bars themselves, I would basically be blocking off the left and right side of the hive. Mayhaps not totally, but it would impede movement. So with that thought, I should use narrower bars and allow for bee space. Agree?

EDIT: Ah, I see now.. It's also laid out here in more detail. The support bar is not as wide as the bar itself. Good to know.


----------



## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

Although I don't see anything inherently wrong with his approach, the natural tinkerer in me has an idea...lol
I think, were it my hive, I'd use 1/2" diameter dowels for the "hangar bars". That way, you could simply put a 1/2" bit in your drill press (hand drill works, but drill press is a lot faster, easier, and more precise); drill a vertical/plumb hole though the center of each bar; then put a dab of glue (I'd go for good ole' wood glue over water-blown poly [Gorilla Glue]) on the inside of the hole & press in the end of the dowel until it's flush with the top surface of the bar. Seems like the tight-fitting hole method would be easier to support while gluing (it holds itself in place, so you don't need a jig, or to hold it by hand), and I know it'll give more surface area for the glue to form a stronger bond holding it stable 

All in all, that looks like a really cool idea for stabilizing TBH combs...just that I naturally can never leave "well enough" alone, lol


----------



## Merlinspop (Nov 4, 2010)

Those 1/8" gaps between the guide and the walls might get filled with propolis living you with fight to get them out. I don't know this will happen for sure...just something to keep an eye on.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

Well, the bees came in this morning and I decided to install them. Figured I'd do it sans suit.. Exhilarating is one way to describe it, with a pinch of disconcertion. 






The opening is a little above the hive floor. I ended up dropping in a raised bottom (solid) to bring the comb height down to 10" vs. 15" which was making me worry about collapse. 

For the queen, I decided to tack the cage against the wall half way up and to put a nail hole all the way through the cady. There were a few nurse bees blocking the way out that I could not shift out of the way, so I'll need to check it in a couple days and see that she's released. 

I decided not to spray them down with sugar water during the install since it was colder (not bad) outside, misty and was still deep in fog. Having a dozen+ bees circling your head going "WTH man?" is rather interesting. And the sound.. Wow.. 

The entrance is 1.5" diameter and is a single entrance. Once it comes time to inspect in a few days I'll shift the bars and put a spacer in to allow entrance via the top and just prop the top open a bit if they need more moving space. 

All in all a mind bogglingly cool experience. Really hoping things go well. Stood there for a long while just watching them, though anything closer than 5' and too close in front of the entrance and I had guards checking me over rather close. Though I did wear a dark blueish plaid shirt.. Doubt that their fashion police were bothered by that though.

Oh yeah, for feed, I've got a 2 quart mason jar near the back follower with 1:1 and 1Tsp of HBH. Lots of blooms out, so I don't need any pollen substitute, I'd say. I'll move to a gallon feeder later when able. Which begs the question.. How long should I feed?


----------



## TheGeneralsBees (Feb 17, 2013)

On the other hand there is the argument that deeper comb may allow the bees to winter better as they have more capped honey on a single comb and they will be able to move up further and consume it when it is too cold for them to move horizontally.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

Well, on the bright side, I just set it in place.. So in the odd event I DO want to try it deeper (like when I have 2 more hives or so) then I can just pull all the comb, set to the side on a stand a pull out the floor. Then they can just build out the old comb to the full depth. 

Being in south western KY though, where temps are 100+ degrees for about 2 weeks out of the year, I'd prefer to keep it shallow for right now while I'm starting and get a handle on things. Though common sense will dictate that you don't muck with a hive in hot temps.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I don't think you will need to make a top entrance anytime soon. It is amazing how well they can make it in and out of a hole in the side.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

That's my thought as well... I look at some of these TBHs and I wonder what kind of shotgun they use to make entrances. 6-7-8+ holes all OVER the place. 

IMO, one hole would suffice. Only time I might open up the top is during hot temps, though that would depend on the bearding. The bees should be able to regulate the temps just fine without me mucking about and creating a chimney effect to mess with their air conditioning. 

But, we'll see if that logic applies to real life management.


----------



## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

On the feeding, I don't feed much at all myself, but what I've seen said most in here is "once they start capping syrup, pull the feeder" or "once they stop taking the syrup, pull the feeder." Seeing as you're using HBH for a feeding stimulant in the syrup, I'd go with option "A," as the HBH may mess with option "B"s accuracy 

About holes & ventilation; my TBHs are in full sun, on the TX gulf coast; I give each hive a 3/8" high by 3" wide entrance at the top & they handle it from there. Fresh combs get soft in the summer, and I had several collapse last year, but no such problems so far this year (the bees have now had a chance to mix some propolis into the combs for a more "solid" attachment) & I expect not to have any more of that issue as I'm switching from 11.5" deep boxes to 10" deep ones.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

I figured for the HBH I'd just use it for two feedings and then quit. That'd be, 4 quarts I think? Plenty of options out there right now far as nectar go, so really I just want them to draw a decent amount of comb first and then roll with it. 

Like I said before, the boxes were 15" deep when it was all said and done.. I feel MUCH more comfortable about the 10" deep though. But then, the issue is purely with fresh comb collapse. Like you said, aged comb has a much higher strength to it, both in structure and attachment. 

Was wondering though, what is the angle of your top bar sides and do you have an issue with attachments? Mine ended up being 15 degrees. Seems like the consensus is 20-25 degrees for optimal comb structure without attachments. But then, I like to think of it that there are no "right" ways of doing these TBHs. Only wrong ways that are proven not to work.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I'm not crazy about HBH, but this time of year it shouldn't start robbing since there is plenty of easy nectar. I would think they will take a while to finish the sugar since there is alternatives.


----------



## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

I went with the 30 degree slope from the lower side of an equilateral hexagon (like a "normal" comb cell), follows the "natural" angle of a honey-comb cell, and gives me a (in my opinion) much stronger comb while I'm rotating it, now that my combs are roughly 17.25"x9.5"x9"x9.5" measured around all four sides. Not sure how much "real" difference it makes, but I feel that getting it this close to 1/2 of an equilateral hexagon helps stabilize & balance the combs when I have to rotate them, so I'm less likely to fumble the rotation & break a comb.


----------



## crabbcatjohn (May 5, 2013)

You should come by my house or call if you need some advice on the heat, over wintering in this area, etc. I've been doing this for quite a while and might be able to help if you need it. I'm also doing a cut out in Murray Tuesday or Wed. The "aged" comb is stronger because of the cocoons in it. Makes it like paper. My hive sides are 21 degrees. 8" wide bottoms 10" deep 15-1/2" bars. I have zero problems with collapsed comb with the heat here. You can't worry about side attachments. They're going to attach one way or the other in spots or down the whole side so you just learn to cut down the sides when needed when you inspect. If you make the hive too big and they can't close up the sides of the combs they will starve trying to keep it warm in the winter. For a hive tool i use a large bread knife. It will do anything you need. In winter i pull the empty bars and pack the hive body area and top above the bars with straw. Biodegradable and works great. At least that's what works for me. Thats my 2 cents. John


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

Nice to hear from someone local. I'm actually heading into Benton Thursday to pick up a couple barrels of chicken feed from a friend who gets it for me. Good stuff. 

Truth be told, I'm not real worried about attachments beyond when it's hotter outside and I might need to look in. I'd also heard that the tool of choice is a nice bendy bread knife. Can't hijack the one from the kitchen though since we make sour dough bread at least once a week and keep it on hand year round. 

Might just take you up on the offer and pop by some time. Be interesting to check out, for sure. Maybe even see if you can stop by in the event that something goes fubar. I don't expect any issues though. But one never knows.

I've got 1" blue foam on the top bars under the lid. Though I did find out that my tolerances on the lid were too tight and with the recent rain, it's a tad tight getting on and off. May redo it, may not. Who knows. Do like your idea of packing the empty space in the box. Far as over wintering goes, how much honey comb should be left in? I've got no intent on robbing them blind and can go without any harvest this year, but wouldn't complain if I could get some.


----------



## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

crabbcatjohn said:


> The "aged" comb is stronger because of the cocoons in it. Makes it like paper.


OK, 2 things...the calm one first:
The first thing bees do to reinforce comb is mixing propolis into the wax; aven in comb that's for honey storage & never has had brood in it, ever...they still add propolis to the wax & it strengthens it.

Now, for the thing that crabbcatjohn has innocently repeated for the one more time than I can stand for (please don't be offended, you're in the majority here...just that the majority happens to be 180 degrees from right):
Honey Bees, Apis Mellifera CAN not, DO not, and WILL not EVER spin cocoons! These are BEES, they're not MOTHS...they have no apparatus on their bodies, larvae or adult, for manufacturing silk. The word for a hardened shell of skin is a CHRYSALIS, that is what bees, flies, ants, and almost all other insects aside form moths make; cocoons are spun bundles of silk.

OK, rant over...now back to your regularly scheduled programming.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

lol.. Fair enough of a correction and duly noted. I did know all that ahead of time though. Beyond the incorrect terminology, it does strengthen the comb.. But you're right as well that there is propolis in it, too. 

So.. At any rate.. Finding this adventure rather entertaining to say the least. Though I do feel bad about smacking that guard bee with my hat. So long as I don't have any issues beyond a 10' radius though, I'm good.


----------



## crabbcatjohn (May 5, 2013)

what kind of chicken feed? Looking for all natural for mine. i personally don't like to use foam. Can cause condensation buildup. 
To the OP i'll try to remember to use the correct terminology...lol


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

It's a scratch mash mix he gets from someone local up that area. Can't recall who from though. Cheaper than buying by 50lb bag and I get a 50 gallon drum with it to use for whatever.. (though one had a chem label sprayed over ). So far I'm not dead yet and the chicks that hatched recently don't have two heads... So... I guess it's OK. 

Didn't consider that for foam, but will have to watch and see. The straw above the bars would act like a Warre quilt in that it would both insulate and control moisture. Not so much the case with foam. Should have considered that!


----------



## crabbcatjohn (May 5, 2013)

yeah its kind of like a quilt, i have modified warre's too... i had a customer who called once and told me he watched a video produced by a top bar seller in the east. So he took the advice and used fiberglass insulation to pack his hive with. Now that's scary.


----------



## chr157y (Feb 14, 2013)

I don't know how I screwed up our hive depth so bad. I completely overlooked it.  It is extremely deep. I'm going to have to put a screen in. What kind of screen should i put in? Can I just lay it across with no support? I don't want to staple it in case I need to clean underneath.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

That's OK, I don't know how I screwed up mine either. Just wasn't thinking, I guess. 

Unless you make the current floor removable, you will not be able to clean under the screen once it's in place. Unless you remove every single comb. Glanced over your old posts and see you've already got bees? Not sure what your options are if that is the case as anything you do will be a great disruption. 

Far as putting a second floor in, if you want to lay screen, I'd recommend building a (think picture) frame that the screen is stapled to which can be set down into the hive. You could build it in several sections so that it could be removed as needed without having to disrupt all the comb. 

Me personally, I went with a solid floor. Will have to see how it ends up working out.


----------



## TNTBEES (Apr 14, 2012)

If your original bottom is hinged, a screen will work. Remember you also have to cut of all your divider boards. They will fit a new solid floor better.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Just be careful about making a big hiding space for SMB.


----------



## chr157y (Feb 14, 2013)

A solid board makes me nervous about critters hiding underneath. I want to be able to see what is going on under there. A frame is a perfect idea for the screen. I'll have to do it this weekend. I'm glad we did a top entrance. Otherwise this would have been a big problem.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

I'm not sure why a solid board would make you nervous for that. Unless your cuts are sloppy, it will rest in tight enough against the body that the bees will seal it. Or you could seal it yourself with some loose glue/sawdust.

Well, best of luck anyway. Only issue I could see with a solid or screen would be SMB and other vermin. But if it fits well, should be no big issue. 

Any pics of your hive?


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

Took this video today around 8:00am to see what was going on. 






As expected, not much.. Not much at all. Few wax flakes on the board and I did notice a worker coming out and flying off who had pollen on its legs. Guess they missed the memo about not being ready for that yet. 

This evening I'll suit up and take a look inside, see if the queen is free yet and pull the cage out and do a general look over.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

Well.. I got finished this morning inspecting things. I'm glad that I went with gloves this time considering the amount of stuff I needed to do. 

The queen and about 8 or so bees were jammed in the cage. Some bit of paper or SOMETHING fell down over the opening, making it a one way door. 

One problem down.. Go in to the hive and see that they're building the comb 90 degrees to the bars. *facepalm*.. Two small pieces and one about the size of my hand. Rip that all down and then went off to get something to attach the larger comb. Hated to knock them back progress wise and needed something to encourage them to build straight. Or at least in the right bloody direction. 

Things I've learned... 
1) A little bit of smoke fuel (pine shavings) lasts just a LITTLE bit.
2) When you have to reach in and scoop a thousand or so bees out of the way, gloves are good. Glad I did that ahead of time. 
3) Bees need to choose their lead engineer wisely. Whichever one they chose didn't read the blueprints right and built the comb in ALL the wrong direction. Bars go this way --- Not this way.. |
4) Hair alligator clips, rubber bands and sisal are a necessity. Sadly, I only had sisal.

I'll be hitting the dollar store or something and picking up some alligator clips and drilling out a few bars for quick zip tie attachment. Did the best I could with the sisal. They'll either attach it, or chew through it and the comb will fall. 

Hurmph.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

i was terrified that mine would build across the combs that is why I dropped a topbar into my lang between a couple of straight combs about 6 days prior to installing a package. Once they had a guide, they followed from ther.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

My bars have a wedge on them. They have pulled mise straight comb. O have a bunch of swarm traps out, it will be interesting to see if one I get any swarms, and two if they pull straight comb.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

Well, not in a position to where I could have an active hive start out a bar for them. So I'm stuck with repair. 

The bars should have been fine. If you look back through, I think I have a picture of how I milled them. I think I'll whip up some more bars with a starker ridge to them though.

I've got a few thoughts on why they started like that, but at this moment it's irrelevant. Live and learn, eh.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

just keep doing like you are doing correct a little as you go, and when you get 2 good straight ones centered, start feeding bars between those 2 to be built out straight


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

That's what I figured would be best. A little guidance goes a long way. 

Did a quicky mod today once the rain cleared and it warmed up. Decided to cut the bottom of one of the followers to allow a feeder to be slid in from behind instead of having to disrupt the hive. Also gets it (2 quart mason) out of the active hive body.

While I was inside I pulled the queen cage out to look it over. Here's a picture of the material that fell and blocked the exit preventing the queen from exiting but allowing several others to enter and become trapped. 










I pulled the screen and checked it out.. It's MUCH stronger than any wax paper. Pulling at it, it took a lot to rip. 

Anyway, while mucking about (sans suit) I'd noticed that smoking the hive did more to agitate them than anything. Wondering if I'd not be better off simply smoking my arms and giving a light single puff into the entrance vs. smoking into the hive body itself. At least for light work.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I found out quick that my bees don't like a lot of smoke they roar like a jet fanning it out


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Keep a spray bottle of water handy if you are not going to have smoke. It doesn't go out and it can be used to convince bees that it is now the time to go inside.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

It's a bit cool and overcast today, nothing too bad though. Wanted to check in and see how the comb I fixed was doing so popped the top and took a look. I really don't know what the issue is but I don't think they're building straight again. Too cool to do much, so I closed them up and knocked them back to 7 bars since I moved the feeder behind the follower. 

Staring at one of the bars on my desk trying to figure out how to modify them and give some more encouragement to build the dang things right. Think I'll chuck up a large cove bit in my router table and mill the slope on the bars.

Here's a shot of my bars. Thought for sure it was enough, but I guess not. :'/


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I made mine on the table saw. I think I used either 40 or 45 degrees. But honestly it seems like your should work fine. Sometimes they take a little convincing to do the right thing.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

I would have thought they'd be fine with it too, but sure didn't start out that way. 

I took one of the bars with a knot in it (which warped a bit) and did a test milling on it. This is what I've got so far. It seems a bit extreme to me, but if they work it, I don't care.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

Pulled the bars out of the back and got them milled.. Here's how they look now. Seriously, if they build at a 90 degree angle to the bars on these, I'll be impressed. 



















I won't bother with the current bars (6 of them?) until it's warmer though. Then I'll see how they're doing and correct with hair clips as needed. 

*sigh*


----------



## crabbcatjohn (May 5, 2013)

Did you wax them? Just wax the leading edge. That will help more than anything. I have a pot of wax and a sponge ready to go if you need to bring them over or you can also go with a pure beeswax candle if you can find one. Very pretty bars though. I used to make some very similar to that.... Want to know how they worked...lol How wide are they?


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I think the new model will be fine. 

I wouldn't wax them. The problem with wax is it won't bond to the bar as well as the wax they make. If you do wax them, only wax one of them. You only need one bar for them to get the idea, after that they should be good to go, just watch out for a curve on the end of the comb.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

I didn't wax them, no. Like shannonswyatt, I subscribe to the thought that they can attach it better and that running a bead will only give a weak bond. I did however slide the bar edge over a wax block to give it some sent on the ridge. 

I made them 1 1/4" wide and have spacers for when I need to give them more space for honey comb. 

They've already got at least one decent piece of comb drawn that I fixed before. If it's in the right position, it should not be an issue. Once it warms up some I'll suit up and go over them, see what's what. 

If they have comb attached alright that needs minimal adjustments I'll simply place one of the new guides in between them to break up the space and get the cove to influence their guidelines. Well, that and the hopefully straightish comb that they do have drawn. I did not disrupt them enough to inspect the one comb I'd broken off and tied to the bar with sisal. 

Hair clips.. Must buy hair clips...


----------



## crabbcatjohn (May 5, 2013)

I disagree with everything shannon said except watching out for the comb on the end to curve. If i see them starting to curve a few bars i just push it back and pinch it up against the spline to hold it enough to give then the idea. They will fix it from there. Hot wax rubbed on the leading edge holds just fine and the bees stick to it like glue and build better and faster. I'm not talking about smearing the whole bar, just the edge. They attach a huge percentage of their comb around the wax you put on so the small amount on the leading edge of the bar makes no difference in strength but it does give them the idea to build there. And like the OP above said, once you get 6 or 7 straight ones just keep adding in between once in a while, but add them towards the end of the new comb building area. I don't add them in the middle of a new brood nest of a first year hive. I will in a established hive so they can make fresh brood comb every few years and to help with swarming. You could probably use dry ones at that point to do that, but i just wax them all. Once they get out past the end of the main brood nest i don't even worry about them cross combing. I'm eating a lot of that anyway. That's the way i do it.


----------



## crabbcatjohn (May 5, 2013)

I don't use spacers.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

I'd been stewing over keeping bees for some 3 years before I finally dug in. Always tend to pour through information first before I start anything that I consider major. Perhaps too much info can be conflicting in the brain? Either way, I've got no intent on giving up, regardless of the outcome on this hive. 

So what size do you make your bars?

I find keeping bees is beyond subjective. There are so many ways of doing things, I don't think there's any one right way.

I figure once these get going and next season I'll be doing swarm traps, Craigslist ads and whatnot. See how far I can do this.


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

My bars are 19 inch in length so they will fit in a lang if necessary. For width I have 1 1/4 and 1 3/8. I'm using the 1 3/8's in swarm traps. I think that either 1 1/4 or 1 3/8's is fine in the brood. Everyone has their ideas on what works best. It isn't a bad idea to have some spacers ready just in case. I initially was going to wax my bars but someone way wiser than me (I think it was Michael Bush) said that it was unnecessary and makes a weaker attachment point. Plus it is just something else that I don't want to have to mess with. Dr. Mangum uses a starter strip in his bars, but I know I would end up dropping them and breaking them off. With your bees kind of making a mess of it you may want to try cutting some kerfs and putting in a starter strip of foundation to get them corrected.


----------



## crabbcatjohn (May 5, 2013)

Anything like 1-3/8 to 1-7/16 will work. I use 1-7/16. I'm much like you and have always been a information junkie and i was where you are now, 7 years ago. Now I do swarm traps, cutouts, swarm catching, and sell quite a few top bar hives on the internet for a living. But i'm still learning every day from the bees. 
There's lots of information out there. Some good and some not so good and a lot of the same misinformation told over and over again that you have to sort through by trial and error. There was even was a person that made a bunch of videos with one suggesting you winterize your hives by packing them with fiberglass insulation. It works... But is it how i prefer to winterize mine? No.... The top bars are always going to be the biggest mystery because no matter what you do they are going to fool you on occasion. I can say just about every design know to man has probably been done, i think i've tried them all....lol So i tend to make mine pretty simple and wax the simple splines and try to manipulate the cross combing when it comes up. It works very well for me. People who say that waxing the splines isn't as strong as the bees themselves are right in a way, but its also not not correct to say the it will make the bees comb attachment to be weaker at all.... They will attach the heck on it and around it. Lets give just one small example. Doing a cutout you hang the comb on a bar. the wax isn't even even attached to the bar, its just hanging there. They will build around it and make it all good and it wasn't even attached at all. Look In the warre hive forum. They suggest using comb guides or waxing the bars to get bees to move down when they don't.. why is that? Same with swarm traps... Same with the DR.s comb guides. They will build out right around them just fine and they aren't even melted on, but the key is the wax draws them and coaxes them to keep it straight..


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I did some experimenting with mine some had popsicle sticks others have wedges and some I melted wax into a kerf and inserted a 1 in long piece of foundation they have pulled straight on them all well some bees seem to get it others well I hived a swarm on Wed and put them in a Lang alternated between foundationless and foundation and the went straight about half a frame and curved them all through and attached them to the foundation on the next frame it was horrible had to cut half of it out just to get some frames out I straightened out the rest


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

This morning I'll be going through the remaining bars and replacing them as needed. I'm not sure what kind of comb they have drawn, but I guess I'll find out once I disrupt the mass. 

Any tips on manipulating a large ball of bees? Well. Maybe they're spread out on more poorly drawn comb by now. Can't stand constantly disrupting them though, so after this I'll be leaving them bee for at least a week.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

Well, went ahead and dealt with them. I've got a (boring) video I'll link up once it's done uploading. Hopefully, this will get them on the right track now. 

Here are my modified bars for mounting the clips. I wanted to make sure they did not move, slip, or otherwise deviate from dead center... That and I like mucking about. Sometimes K.I.S.S. does not apply to things I do.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

Put up the video. It's a bit long and boring, but it is what it is. Feel free to critique what all I did as much as you like. Living and learning is best done with feedback.


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I'm a beginner, so I may be completely wrong, but I made my comb guides with acute angles-- the guides are deeper than they are wide, and come to a sharp edge. I have the feeling that the bees like this sharp edge to orient their new comb on. So far, bees from two different sources have built comb straight down the edge, with no wandering at all. Because of this cross section, the combs are very well attached up both sides of the guide and would have to shear off almost an inch of wax on either side to separate from the comb guides. With deep narrow comb guides, the forces that would tend to separate the comb from the guides are primarily in shear, which I believe will make for stronger attachment.

I'm using Langstroth frames, so I cut my guides separately from the top bars, using a table saw blade set at an angle, flipping the workpiece for each pass. You can cut a lot of guides in a short time, if your work pieces are cut to length prior to ripping the guides off. I attached them to the top bars with glue and brads.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

I really think that the original bars I made (which are indeed wider than deep) are the root of the issue. Or at the very least, not a deterrent enough for them to not draw across the bars. With the modifications though, I'll be amazed if they do not draw at least somewhat straight.

In due time (and when I pick up a load of rough sawn lumber) I'll end up making some Lang boxes as well to mess with. Highly doubt this hive will be strong enough to split this season, but next season I'll have (at least) one of each up.

I like milling my own bars out of one piece. It's fairly cheap if you run through 2x4 #2 studs, which I have plenty on hand. Though I'll have to adjust my methods with the new guides cut as coves. 

Part of the fun for me is the woodworking as well. Picked up a granite top hybrid table saw pretty cheap ages ago and been doing work on it ever since. So, so far this is a totally fun "hobby". Don't see any aspects I do not enjoy.. Yet.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

The thing I find odd is how narrow the comb is and how it appears they started building to one side with mine and all the videos ive seen they usually start in the middle with a narrow comb till they get 3-4 inches and then widen them for support I also noticed they were staggered when you put the camera down in there they may try to connect 2 staggered combs right or wrong I probably would have cut them all loose and put 2 or 3 little combs on one bar to incourage them to fill the gaps and moved all the big ones smack dab in the middle again not sure if that would b the right or wrong thing to do


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

I think I'll go with a "next time" on that idea. Leaving them be until next Monday, so will see how they work it then. The comb that's been put back is fairly straight. 

They seem to favor hanging out on the right of the hive. Maybe it's a heat thing? Who knows. One of these years I may figure it out.


----------



## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

On watching the video, I have a couple notes:

1: Don't twist the bars, or shake them so violently. Both of these actions have caused me to break combs in my TBH hives. Yes, you can "get away with it" now, while the combs are extremely small, but it develops a bad habit that'll cost you (or at least that *did* cost me) later.

2: Keep a bread knife or sharp hive tool handy, and don't hesitate to use it to cut brace & burr comb off the sides of the box BEFORE you try to lift out the bars; sometimes my bees attach their combs to the sides of the box better than to the bars, especially with the first bar in the front of the hive, that they seem universally to put 3-4 weird, cross-wise combs on.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would build a couple of frames so you can tie crooked combs into it and establish the line of the combs. Bees build parallel combs. The sooner you have one straight comb, the sooner you will get another straight comb...


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I've made some comb attachment bars with 1/2 inch hardware cloth. Seemed easier than hair clips. I hope to have a cutout coming out to test them out.


----------



## thebalvenie (Feb 25, 2013)

i'm quite happy and impressed with these top bars with the starter strips


----------



## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

thebalvenie, those are very close to what I make. I don't have the shoulder where the wedge meets with rest of the bar, but otherwise mine are about the same. When I get bored I'll make a batch from a 2x6 or 2x8 and put them in a box for later use.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

Well, the new bars are working splendidly. Attachments are solid and directly along the ridge line. 

However, one of the clipped bars this morning was attached to the bar next door. Seems that while building comb on the one and repairing comb on the other, they got the bright idea to curve the ends and POOF, attach them both together. 

*facepalm* 

I'll be gone over the weekend, so I'm not messing with them again until Monday. For now though, the comb is straight on the bulk of them. The one large comb I clipped though is wavy, but at least in line with the bar.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Now all you need is a couple of straight full combs and you can scrape off any wonky stuff and feed between good comb and they will fix it correctly LOL


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

Fix the mess you made! Darn bees. 

Plan for Monday is to remain status quo on comb straightness and to locate the queen, whom I had not seen since releasing her on day 3.


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

Well, ticked off at myself. Ended up having the roof blow off during a hard sheeting rain front that blew in. Soaked the bees a bit. Darn things have the floor so well sealed that there was a 1/4" of standing water near the entrance, so I had to elevate the front so the water would flow back into unused space. 

Anyway, on the 29th I did a hive inspection to check on the comb and status of the hive. I'm not sure how things should be progressing in terms of how much drawn comb they should have. I figure I delayed them by at least 5 or 6 days work by the original restructuring. 






They've got 8 bars started, but none are fully drawn yet. The back ones have quite a bit of brood and nectar stores, but no capped honey that I'd seen. The flow is on though, so I decided to stop feeding. Frankly, I think I'll just resume feeding a simple 1:1 with a single drop of LGO in it, vs the HBH. 

I still hate working in those gloves. Only time I put them on is when I need to "push" some comb straight. Think I'll try the purple surgical gloves instead. 

So, how far along on average should things be @ 3 weeks since install? Think I should resume feeding? Not seeing as much pollen as I'd expected either, should I supplement? Am I missing something? 

I feel like such a sponge some days.

Well, at least someone else was kind enough to point out the queen. Not a fan of white markers, but perhaps that gets better with the population boom.


----------



## crabbcatjohn (May 5, 2013)

Yea, i heard there were trees down over there too. Pretty good storm over here too. I would stop feeding. There is really no need now as there was plenty of rain all spring here and the flow is on full force. All of my swarms this spring were started on a single quart of 1:1 only to get them started building comb only. After that they are on their own. They are doing gang busters. As my old 3rd generation bee mentor here told me, don't feed em John, makes them lazy. Works for me. So why the lemon grass oil? Are you trying to get them to eat sugar when they don't want it? When bees don't want to feed on it its because there is better food out there....Be patient and let them do their thing. One more thing, you need to totally dry that hive out before you seal it back up. With the humidity expected to be way up for the next 3 or 4 days here, If it molds in there your done. Just my 2 cents


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

Patients is one thing I typically have. Though with bees? Seems just a smidge less than normal. 

I made sure that the water drained out the back end (which they hadn't got to to seal yet) and had the top kicked open for better flow. There is still some slight condensation under the lid, but the inner hive is better. They'd been fanning pretty steadily, too.

Guess I'm just worried that they're not progressing fast enough. Granted, in a week (and less) there will be tons of brood hatching out. Will be interesting to see how things go then.. Or at least 14 days (after hatch till they start drawing comb, yes?) after then.

I really wish that A) I had a Lang to mess with, and B) I got at LEAST two packages.. If not three.. This is rather cool.

So, for our area, how many pounds of honey should they overwinter with, conservatively. Not out to rob them blind and then feed. 40 or 50LB?


----------



## crabbcatjohn (May 5, 2013)

About the feeding right now during the main flow, you are surely doing more harm than good. My opinion. When your brood hatches you will see a noticeable difference. Hard to say about how much honey they will need. With top bar hives it depends on your hive size, width,depth, insulation techniques, how well you manage closing down your brood nest area in the fall. Winter and spring weird weather patterns here,etc. so there is no set poundage. Hard to say how much honey you will even actually get. 1st year hives you take very,very little honey if any. My best advice to anybody who does KTBHs is to not over manage them. Just keep the comb straight and then let them do their thing. As for the water in your hive and the 3 inches of rain we just got again today, just watch out for mold, if you see any burn it out with a heat gun or propane torch. Oh, by the way, if you get a chance you should go see "Fiddler on the Roof" at Playhouse in the park. Its great! And my GF has the female lead role...lol John


----------



## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

Yeah.. I figured it was daft and I was just being paranoid about how they were doing. I don't expect to get anything from them this year. A bar maybe. Only thing I work them for is to make sure the bars are straight and not crossed and see if they're booming. Going to wait two weeks before the next full inspection this time as there's really no point to muck about in them beyond my own curiosity. Hadn't seen a play at the park for some time. Might just see if I can make a showing.


----------

