# Oxalic Acid ... soon approved for use in beehives



## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I picked up a bag from Amazon, it had no label. :ws:


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Print one. 

Years ago when auto inspections were a new thing, I glued a state liquor control tax sticker on my windshield. Same color. Worked for me.


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## buzzleblast (Jan 16, 2014)

Will be interesting watching the compliance hustle unfold. If I need to buy a pre-labeled container just to have somewhere to store my supply of OA, so be it. 
What sort of adulterants will they have to add to prove it came from Gubmint Certified suppliers?
Guess its time to follow my ammo mantra "Buy it cheap, stack it deep"


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

"_Here's the "unspoken" catch. While OA is available in many places, you can only use OA in accordance with its label. So if you used OA supplied by another source (and hence not having the "approved for use in beehives" label, you are in effect in violation. _"

That will get even less enforcement effort than the original prohibition against using OA to control mites did.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Will there be another level of state by state approval for use in hives as there is for many pesticides?

I'd be very pleased to have OAV approved for use, but I'm wondering how they will ensure operator safety with the method. People often try to get away without adequate safety gear, in my experience. (I know this on a personal level and I've got the ER and hospitalization bills to prove it. Wasn't OAV, though. It was back in my 20's when I was young and dumb!)

Anyway, it would be great, though probaby more costly, to have genuine bee-safe materials to work with.

Enj.


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

I feel it'd always been legal for use in beehives. How else are you going to keep those top bars clean?


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## Eddie Honey (May 30, 2011)

They can't really guarantee operator safety with any other product. Some fool could easily torch his lungs with a wiff of formic acid. Common sense is sold separately lol.



enjambres said:


> Will there be another level of state by state approval for use in hives as there is for many pesticides?
> 
> I'd be very pleased to have OAV approved for use, but I'm wondering how they will ensure operator safety with the method. People often try to get away without adequate safety gear, in my experience. (I know this on a personal level and I've got the ER and hospitalization bills to prove it. Wasn't OAV, though. It was back in my 20's when I was young and dumb!)
> 
> ...


Anyway, it would be great, though probably more costly, to have genuine bee-safe materials to work with.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Michael Palmer said:


> Print one.
> 
> Years ago when auto inspections were a new thing, I glued a state liquor control tax sticker on my windshield. Same color. Worked for me.


I love it Michael


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

enjambres said:


> Will there be another level of state by state approval for use in hives as there is for many pesticides?
> 
> Anyway, it would be great, though probaby more costly, to have genuine bee-safe materials to work with.
> 
> Enj.


NY is already working on a way to add a tax to it


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

What kind (brand & model #) do you use while administering OA?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

philip.devos said:


> What kind (brand & model #) do you use while administering OA?


Me? I use either the Varrox or Varrocleaner from OxaVap.com.........


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## BudsBees (Mar 10, 2013)

The ones I use are the ones I make and sell


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Years ago when auto inspections were a new thing, I glued a state liquor control tax sticker on my windshield. Same color. Worked for me.


does that alow you an open container when you drive?


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## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

I would think that for beginning hobbyists, a pre-measured amount to mix, or even pre-mixed syrup, to use with a dribble syringe or similar tool would be useful and highly profitable. Maybe offer a deluxe version with probiotics.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Maybe offer a deluxe version with probiotics.

Certainly an excellent _marketing _concept! 

Note that while the _exact _method of oxalic acid effectiveness is unclear, the point of a dribble application is to get the bees bodies coated with the mixture (not _intended _to be ingested by the bees). Of course, _some _of it does get ingested, but according to Randy Oliver, the "mode of action" for OA dribble is "contact". Read his comments in full in the _Mode of Action_ section at (about the middle of) this page:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

RudyT said:


> Maybe offer a deluxe version with probiotics.


I sure hope you are being sarcastic. this has got to be the stupidest idea ever.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Maybe you never heard of Pet Rocks?


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Maybe you never heard of Pet Rocks?


Invented by Gary Dahl.

"_Dahl sold 1.5 million Pet Rocks and became a millionaire_"

"_With his money Dahl purchased the ironically named 'Carry Nations' bar in downtown Los Gatos, California, which he nearly ran into the ground and sold after eight months.[SUP][3][/SUP] He continued to work in advertising but avoided interviews for years, because "a bunch of wackos" harassed him with lawsuits and threats. Dahl said in 1988, 'Sometimes I look back and wonder if my life wouldn't have been simpler if I hadn't done it.'_"


Oh, the painful sting of successfully duping stupid people.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

It's gluten-free!


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## pmshoney (Dec 30, 2014)

my question is who will we get to order that 1st can of bee legal OA and scan and post the label to print friendly size so the rest can lick and stick and be legal as well :scratch:


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

Sweet deal!! Now I will have to find another way to be an outlaw................need to start importing Chinese honey and call it my own!!! :lookout:

I just treated my hives with OAV last weekend, the only thing I am going to need to do is get another vaporizer, using one on 50+ hives will get mighty time consuming!!


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

BeeGhost said:


> ..... the only thing I am going to need to do is get another vaporizer, using one on 50+ hives will get mighty time consuming!!


I believe I know just where you can get one..... or two..


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

adamant said:


> i am sure as soon as the usa gets approval you will see different vaporizers hit the market!


Certainly on the commercial side, I think you'll see innovation .... but then again, I'm not so sure. A couple of guys dribbling OA in a yard can mover rather quickly. On the hobbyist side, I don't believe you'll see much different that what exists now. Remember most of the rest of the world has had the use of OA for well ...years and we have what we have now. 
Time will tell........


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

Eddie Honey said:


> Some fool could easily torch his lungs with a wiff of formic acid.


Yep, that would be me. The first time I bought a bucket of MAQS I for no apparent reason stuck my nose in the bucket to see how it smelled. It was sort of like snorting wasabi.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Eddie Honey said:


> They can't really guarantee operator safety with any other product.


Yes. That's how it looks like if a beekeeper accidently pours formic acid onto his leg:









Photo credit: http://www.egms.de/dynamic/en/index.htm

So you need to be careful.


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## toekneepea (Jul 7, 2010)

snl said:


> Remember most of the rest of the world has had the use of OA for well ...years and we have what we have now.
> Time will tell........


What's the OW survival rate with OA use in different countries? How effective is it? Do you have any hard data to look at?

Thanks,
Tony P.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

toekneepea said:


> What's the OW survival rate with OA use in different countries? How effective is it? Do you have any hard data to look at?


There's lots of anecdotal evidence on this forum that OA is safe for the bees and effective against mites.

Most studies of OA use focused on the dribble method, where most hobby beeks seem to prefer the vaporization method. 

Randy Oliver spent some time working with and discussing OA. A good place to start your research is:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-heat-vaporization-and-other-methods-part-2-of-2-parts/


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

according to the training training on this subject that I received from the Ontario tech. transfer team: you can get away with an overdose with vapor, there is a large safety margin.. an overdose or repeated treatments with dribble can lead to queen damage. it was taught that a single dribble dose after brood rearing is fine, when the bees start to cluster, do not treat more than once . the vapor treatment does not seem to cause queen damage with multiple treatments.. smaller operators do not mind the extra time used over a dribble program. the larger operators are always trying to reduce labor cost.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

anyone know if this is going to be section 3 or section 18??


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

wildbranch2007 said:


> anyone know if this is going to be section 3 or section 18??


Good question, I'll attempt a phone call Monday to find out. I also want to know whether they will allow supers on while vaporizing....


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## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

mathesonequip said:


> I sure hope you are being sarcastic. this has got to be the stupidest idea ever.


Mathesonequip, I was trying to be funny--as I think you detected. ...although I wouldn't be surprised...


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

wildbranch2007 said:


> anyone know if this is going to be section 3 or section 18??





snl said:


> Good question, I'll attempt a phone call Monday to find out. I also want to know whether they will allow supers on while vaporizing....


I did make the phone call today but it was not returned, however reviewing the notes from my previous phone call that I forgot to post previously...... Section 3


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

For those not up to speed ... what is the difference?


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

From what i've read on the net so far this is what i've come up with

Section 18 deals with Emergency registrations
Section 3 deals with standard registrations


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

If it's section 3, its for everyone in the USA, if Section 18, each state must apply and get approved in order for it to be sold in that state. Section 3 eliminates the problem of getting someone in the state to decide if its good or bad for your bees.

thanks snl :thumbsup:


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

As promised, this is from my discussion with Reuben Baris (of the EPA) this morning. OA will be section 3. _*It will not be approved for use with the supers on!! *_

After facilitating the application for registration, last November the EPA received from USDA an application to register oxalic acid for use in bee hives to control Varroa mites. Due to the significant problems this parasite poses for honey bees, the EPA review of the application is being conducted under a greatly expedited process. This is supported by a June 2014 Presidential directive to expedite the review of new products targeting pests harmful to pollinators. The public can react to and comment on EPA’s action on this application. A notice to the public through the Federal Register is expected to publish shortly. EPA staff have indicated the regulatory decision will be completed shortly after the comment period. 

I hope this answers some of your questions. In my discussion with Mr. Baris, he indicated that he is devoting almost all of his time in an attempt to expedite the use of OA in beehives.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Thanks for keeping us in touch with progress on this matter SNL.


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## Tom_A (Dec 12, 2014)

snl said:


> As promised, this is from my discussion with Reuben Baris (of the EPA) this morning. OA will be section 3. _*It will not be approved for use with the supers on!! *_


It makes sense not using OA in the dribble method with supers on but OA vaporized is the safest of any treatments during nectar flows both to the bees and for the honey. What I have read it is virtually undetectable in honey over natural occurring OA. I would hope this is clarified in the release.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Tom_A said:


> It makes sense not using OA in the dribble method with supers on but OA vaporized is the safest of any treatments during nectar flows both to the bees and for the honey. What I have read it is virtually undetectable in honey over natural occurring OA. I would hope this is clarified in the release.


MAQS (formic) is the safest treatment with supers on from all that I've read. I believe it's the only treatment approved with supers on. I can tell you from speaking with Mr. Baris, that vaporization will NOT be approved with supers on........


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Just an FYI..... 

Ok Graham.........just for you! The cynic that you are......

It published this morning (a link to the online FR is included below). The docket (EPA-HQ-OPP-2015-0043) will be open to receive public comment until March 6, 2016. This is a statutory requirement where EPA notifies the public that it has received applications to register pesticide products containing active ingredients not included in any currently registered pesticide products. This is included in the provisions of FIFRA section 3(c)(4) (7 U.S.C. 136a(c)(4)), EPA provides notice of receipt and opportunity to comment on these applications. However, it is important to note that notice of receipt of these applications does not imply a decision by the Agency on these applications.

https://www.federalregister.gov/art...pt-of-applications-for-new-active-ingredients


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks for the link, Larry.

Just because I _AM_ a cynic, I did read it! It is a combined notice, with references to 5 different substances being reviewed. The one we are interested in is #5, near the bottom of the page ...



> 5. File Symbol: 91266-R. Docket ID number: EPA-HQ-OPP-2015-0043. Applicant: United States Department of Agriculture, 10300 Baltimore Ave., Bld. 306 BARC-EAST, Beltsville, Maryland 20705. Product name: Oxalic Acid Dihydrate. Active ingredient: Oxalic Acid Dihydrate at 100%. Proposed classification/Use: Insecticide/in-hive use to control Varroa mites. Contact: RD
> 
> https://www.federalregister.gov/art...pt-of-applications-for-new-active-ingredients


:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Can't express how optimistic I feel about seeing this express action by our govt! We are used to slow, feckless action patterns from a polarized nation -I welcome this type of action. Don't want this remark to hijack the thread, just heartened by this surprise.


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## WCMN (Jan 29, 2008)

Public comment period is until March 6 2015. Not 2016.

Randy


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

WCMN said:


> Public comment period is until March 6 2015. Not 2016.
> 
> Randy


Darn typing fingers! :scratch:


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Sure wish Duncan Thacker was still posting on BS. Would have loved to see his reaction to this ...........


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

I think I'm going to have to comment to the govt. requesting they not approve this treatment. If they do approve this treatment, what will we have to argue about?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Whose fault it was! :lpf:


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## Tony Rogers (Oct 18, 2012)

LOL! Michael, I have enjoyed your witty humor on the videos I've seen, but this tops it. Sounds just like something I'd do


Michael Palmer said:


> Print one.
> 
> Years ago when auto inspections were a new thing, I glued a state liquor control tax sticker on my windshield. Same color. Worked for me.


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## Tcqf (Feb 3, 2015)

Vaporizing Is the best way and best for the bees as not bee deaths and can be used multiple times,as drizzle is only recommend as a single treatment,I ve been using OA for about eight years with good results and no other mite treatment(varrox) costs pennies to treat a hive.


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## BooneCtyBeek (Jun 20, 2011)

Really should not be that big of a deal. If you treated late/early when there's little or no brood studies say you are good for the year. Besides, as with any mite treatment you'd have to treat three weeks in a row to get an effective mite treatment.


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## jrhoto (Mar 2, 2009)

Lets hope the goverment doesn't find a way to complicate something that is simple and effective, but i'm sure they will.
poor valley bee farm


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

jrhoto said:


> Lets hope the goverment doesn't find a way to complicate something that is simple and effective, but i'm sure they will.
> poor valley bee farm


From all my communication with the EPA on this............ they really want this and will everything within their power to make sure the approval process goes smoothly and we'll have an awesome, legal weapon to use against mites........


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