# Are nails/staples enough for frames or do they also need glue as well.



## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

With all the "controversy" in the last poll, I figured I'd try to state a poll more clearly. Though I did get a bit redundant.

Hammer away! (No pun intended)


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I liked the last one... it was easy. I always glue them. Do I think nails alone will work? Of course they will. Work as well? Of course they won't...


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## Sharpbees (Jun 26, 2012)

I glue and nail mine.


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## Woodchip (May 29, 2013)

:thumbsup:


Sharpbees said:


> I glue and nail mine.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

For those that may not be familiar with the "last poll" referred to above, here is a link: :lookout:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...that-glued-frames-are-stronger-than-non-glued




When this thread has run its course, then it will be time for someone to start a poll as to what _*kind of glue*_ is the right glue to use. 

TBII, TBIII, rubber cement, superglue, hide glue, flour+water, contact cement, propolis, epoxy, Gorilla Glue --- the possibilities are endless. :lpf:


:gh:


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I seldom move colonies between yards, other than nucs, and I clean the propolis from the endbars when I do an inspection. I have not had frames come apart because of nail or staple failure. Once upon a time I glued them also, but I noticed that unglued frames performed as well as the glued ones, so I no longer bothered to glue them.

I think beekeepers should always question a practice or manipulation and see if doing it differently works as well or better. Once you find a method that gives you good results, then stick with it. The bees don't care, it's all about pleasing yourself.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

AR Beekeeper said:


> I think beekeepers should always question a practice or manipulation and see if doing it differently works as well or better. Once you find a method that gives you good results, then stick with it. The bees don't care, it's all about pleasing yourself.


Point taken, and I believe it is a great one and can apply to a lot of things we do individually as beekeepers. I personally do not know how frames hold up without glue and nails, because I have always glued and nailed them


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I don't bother with gluing, never had any frame isues yet. Is glue, stronger, probably, but to me there's a point where it's overly redundant.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

When I assembled my first hives, they came with nails and instructions for assembly. I was nine years old, and my father helped me with the assembly. The instructions did not mention glue. So they were only nailed together. Then, for the next decade or two, I assembled equipment the same way. From time to time I would experience annoying failures, especially with frames. Sometimes a Top Bar or Bottom Bar would pull away from the remainder of the frame. I started nailing differently. Now I always endeavored to put, at least one nail, through the End Bar and into the Top Bar, and through the End Bar and into the Bottom Bars, at each junction. This served the purpose, but was tedious and used more hardware.

A while ago, on this forum, someone had a thread about gluing hive equipment, in conjunction with nailing/stapling them. I began doing it, first I used polyurethane glues, but they were messy and hard to clean from my hands. Then I tried Titebond II and III. Now I just use Titebond III and a pneumatic stapler. Easy to clean up, quick to go together, and stays together, very well. The only problem, now, is that when a Bottom Bar warps, I need to use the band saw, with its carbide toothed blade, to cut out the bad Bottom Bar, also cutting through the glue and staples, so I can install a replacement Bottom Bar. But, the way the Top Bar is connected to the End Bars, I'm afraid that Top Bar replacement is not as easily possible. If a Top Bar warped or twisted beyond usability, I'm afraid all I could salvage from that frame would be the Bottom Bar.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Seems this new poll did actually serve a purpose. From the old it seemed more of an academic discussion, this one is more of a practical or "in practice" discussion.

Helps me feel better since I just built 100 frames and left the glue the shelf!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I voted for the nail and staple only but really I believe it should be staples of the proper length and not nails.

My first hives came from a old beekeeper who sells nucs and as you would expect the frames that he puts in your hive are very old. Some of them it is quite evident that the only thing holding these frames together is nails. If they were glued the glue was gone. I experienced some of the same when I helped Mark extract one fall. The only thing holding some of these frames together was the nails barely hanging on. Base on this we could do a poll on how long the frames would last nails / staples only or glue only and I would vote nails / staples only from what I have seen.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Joseph Clemens said:


> A while ago, on this forum, someone had a thread about gluing hive equipment, in conjunction with nailing/stapling them. I began doing it, first I used polyurethane glues, but they were messy and hard to clean from my hands. Then I tried Titebond II and III. Now I just use Titebond III and a pneumatic stapler. Easy to clean up, quick to go together, and stays together, very well. The only problem, now, is that when a Bottom Bar warps, I need to use the band saw, with its carbide toothed blade, to cut out the bad Bottom Bar, also cutting through the glue and staples, so I can install a replacement Bottom Bar. But, the way the Top Bar is connected to the End Bars, I'm afraid that Top Bar replacement is not as easily possible. If a Top Bar warped or twisted beyond usability, I'm afraid all I could salvage from that frame would be the Bottom Bar.


FWIW combining old parts with new parts is not worth it. Sawing through nails and staples can be dangerous.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> If they were glued the glue was gone. I experienced some of the same when I helped Mark extract one fall.


Mark's glue "goes away"?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> FWIW combining old parts with new parts is not worth it. [HIGHLIGHT] Sawing through nails and staples can be dangerous.[/HIGHLIGHT]


Dangerous?

So can sawing through plain *wood*! :lpf: Forget the saw -- nails and staples by themselves -- can hurt you. And how about upsetting a bunch of stinging insects? 

That is why smart woodworkers/beekeepers take appropriate precautions .... 

.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

When I can, I now cut frame components, then try to let them lay idle for, at least a few months, before I assemble frames from them. This way, if they're going to warp or twist, I'll have warning before I use them to assemble into frames. I only recently began trying to do this, more regularly. However, I did have a batch of frames that had been assembled, last season, and was just now wiring and putting into use. It was one of these preassembled, but still unused frames, that had its Bottom Bar warp. And the new Bottom Board was, pretty much the same age lumber, as the old, warped Bottom Bar, but unusable. Not too dangerous to saw through nails and staples, since I used my carbide toothed band saw. And it can be safely used to cut metal, too. I would not intentionally cut nails or staples with my table or radial arm saw, though their carbide toothed blades can deal with softer metals, and an occasional nail or staple, though fragments of steel can become projectiles.


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## Moots (Nov 26, 2012)

Gilligan said:


> Seems this new poll did actually serve a purpose. From the old it seemed more of an academic discussion, this one is more of a practical or "in practice" discussion.
> 
> Helps me feel better since I just built 100 frames and left the glue the shelf!



Gilligan,
What am I missing, I'm not sure why you, "feel better", about your decision? You still have almost a full 80% saying that glue is necessary...That's pretty strong! I'm not sure you can get 80% of people to agree that the sky is blue. 

Too me, it's kind of an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure argument. I guess my question is why wouldn't you glue them?

I've never really put a clock or a calculator to it, but if I had to guess...I would think that the proper application of glue to the assembly of 100 frames probably adds somewhere between 10 and 20 minutes to the process and takes well under a dollars worth of Titebond III. If that saves me the frustration of having one or two frames come apart on me at some point down the road, to me, it's worth the extra investment of time and money.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Joseph Clemens said:


> since I used my carbide toothed band saw. And it can be safely used to cut metal, too.


Yes, carbide can safely cut metal but it can also shatter when there is an interrupted cut. The rule of thumb is two teeth must be in contact with the metal at all times. With nails, especially small nails two teeth may not be in contact all the time and results in shattering the carbide tip tooth. Typically in these cases an abrasive blade is usually use. Carbide tipped blades for table saws are not meant for cutting ferrous metals.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Brian, 
Thanks for the heads-up. I will definitely keep this information in mind if I ever intentionally cut any ferrous metal, again. Sometimes it happens unintentionally, but fortunately those instances are extremely rare. I'm certainly planning to use a hacksaw or jig saw, with metal cutting blade, for any future Bottom Bar extractions.

Ages ago, while in the Navy, working with the Seabees, I had used carbide saw blades, to cut aluminum components, but there was a very particular protocol for that, and everything was done to promote maximum safety. And aluminum is definitely not the same as ferrous metals.

For example the heavy steel cage, used while inflating heavy equipment tires. Once, a tire blew apart - without the cage, it is easy to see how easily someone could have been injured in that incident. The split rim blew an impression about 1/2" deep in the concrete shop floor.

Definitely granted that salvaging a few Bottom Bars is not worth risking injury, of any kind.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Joseph Clemens said:


> And aluminum is definitely not the same as ferrous metals.


Yes, aluminum, copper, brass, lead will not harm a carbide tipped blade. Nobody is using these metals for nails.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Yes, aluminum, copper, brass, lead will not harm a carbide tipped blade. [HIGHLIGHT]Nobody is using these metals for nails.[/HIGHLIGHT]


Aluminum nails: http://www.doitbest.com/Aluminum_+c...Aluminum-model-2NFMXK-doitbest-sku-700156.dib

Copper nails: http://www.doitbest.com/Aluminum_+c...Fastener-model-122540-doitbest-sku-740791.dib

Brass nails: http://www.doitbest.com/Aluminum_+c...Fastener-model-123745-doitbest-sku-728644.dib

Lead head nails: http://www.doitbest.com/Steel+nails...mesource-model-134LH1-doitbest-sku-758239.dib


:gh:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I believe Ace meant in the context of making frames.


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## WPG (Mar 28, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Sawing through nails and staples can be dangerous.



Living can be dangerous if you're stupid.
I do alot of remodeling of old work, add-on's etc.
I cut thru alot of framing nails with no problem.
I use a carbide toothed blade in my Milwaukee 'skill' saw, the plain steel ones don't last.
I wear gloves, safety glasses, jeans, boots, long sleeved shirt, cap and sometimes a face shield.

But the main thing is I use a blade that was designed for it.
Not a carbide cross-cut or rip blade, but a carbide one made for dirty wood with nails in it.
They cost a little more, so what, they get the job done time after time.

And there is definitely not two or three teeth in contact at the same time.

Back on topic.

I glue frames as I nail or staple them.
And yes there are nails designed to not split small pieces of wood.
And even hammers to drive them.

If the wood is very dry it will split with any size fastener. So wet it.
You might not be able to see it right away, but down the road it will come apart at the worst time.

It is never a good time.

Glue is cheap insurance. It helps.

If you don't use it I'll never want any of your equipment, even if it's free.

I have had frames in my inventory that came apart because the fasteners rusted.

If I could get stainless steel staples, frame wire, queen excluders etc I would.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WPG said:


> But the main thing is I use a blade that was designed for it.
> Not a carbide cross-cut or rip blade, but a carbide one made for dirty wood with nails in it.


I have never seen one.


> I have had frames in my inventory that came apart because the fasteners rusted.


A rusty nail is harder to pull out then a nail that isn't rusted. Rader might be able to find you stainless steel staples.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

Gilligan said:


> With all the "controversy" in the last poll, I figured I'd try to state a poll more clearly. Though I did get a bit redundant.
> 
> Hammer away! (No pun intended)


Most frames stay together without glue. I put a bunch together without glue. However, some have come apart while I was doing a hive inspection, which is not particularly auspicious. In the future I will be gluing (titebond II) and nailing.

phil


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## WPG (Mar 28, 2010)

Acebird said:


> I have never seen one.



I don't suppose you have.

It must be a figment of my imagination since you don't know about them.



Acebird said:


> A rusty nail is harder to pull out then a nail that isn't rusted. Rader might be able to find you stainless steel staples.


I didn't say a rusty nail, I said rusted.
It didn't pull out, it broke. 
Right at the joint.
There was nothing else to hold it.

If a bucket of water got frosty it might have a skim of ice on it's surface, but if it's frozen it's ice all the way down.


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## jim81147 (Feb 18, 2013)

Ace , in this neck of the woods , they are called piranha blades and are available at most of the big box and chain hardware stores.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Moots said:


> Gilligan,
> What am I missing, I'm not sure why you, "feel better", about your decision? You still have almost a full 80% saying that glue is necessary...That's pretty strong! I'm not sure you can get 80% of people to agree that the sky is blue.
> 
> Too me, it's kind of an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure argument. I guess my question is why wouldn't you glue them?
> ...


Well, lets be honest, this is ppl's opinion on if they FEEL it is needed... It's not a poll on scientific studies on if it is needed.

Why not just use it anyway?

Well, I built my frames at my office when I could... Sometimes I would only get two built before the phone would ring and I'd stop making noise so my guy could handle it.. Sometimes it was a customer that would come in and I'd walk off and come back later. Only a couple of times did I know I was going to be uninterrupted and even then I built them while working on several computers and some video editing... So I'd come do a few frames while something was rendering then I'd go back and do more editing... Got lots done that day, but it was over an entire evening.

I own three businesses (which I actively work in two of them daily), some rental property and have a four year old... I don't often get to just set aside time to dedicate to things like this.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I use stainless steel staples. 18 gauge, 1/4" crown, 1-1/4" long. I still have some galvanized staples, and I use various lengths for different purposes, and I've only begun replacing the 1-1/4" length staples, which I use the most of. I may continue using ordinary staples, in other lengths (I haven't decided for sure, yet), but plan to phase out non-stainless steel in the 1-1/4" length.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim81147 said:


> Ace , in this neck of the woods , they are called piranha blades and are available at most of the big box and chain hardware stores.


The only thing I found were these blades that are diamond impregnated abrasive blades. This is what I would expect to use to cut nails not a carbide tipped blade.

http://www.diasharp.com/pdf/Piranha02Super.pdf


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

WPG said:


> I didn't say a rusty nail, I said rusted.
> It didn't pull out, it broke.
> Right at the joint.
> There was nothing else to hold it.


You are assuming it wasn't glued. I would suspect that if a nail was rusted to the point it would break then the moisture in the joint had to be very high. When the moisture gets that high in wood the glue joint is toast and the only thing that will hold it together is a mechanical fastener.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Both Titebond II glue (type II testing) and Titebond III glue (type I testing) pass ASTM tests involving boiling glued wood in water for multiple hours. 


> Type I testing involves cutting the 6" by 6" assemblies into 1" by 3" specimens, boiling them for 4 hours, then baking the specimens in a 145˚F oven for 20 hours. They are boiled for an additional 4 hours, then immediately cooled using running water. The specimens are sheared while wet, and the bonds must pass certain strength and wood failure requirements to pass the Type I specification.
> 
> Type II testing involves cutting the 6" by 6" assemblies into 2" by 5" specimens, soaking them for 4 hours, then baking the specimens in a 120˚F oven for 19 hours. This is repeated for a total of three cycles, and the bonds must not delaminate to pass the Type II specification.
> 
> http://www.titebond.com/Libraries/LiteraturePDFs/FF681_TBIIIUltimateBrochureTB.sflb.ashx


ASTM is an independent standards organization recognized worldwide.

As a result of such ASTM testing Titebond III is considered _waterproof_. Titebond II is considered _weatherproof_.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Most tests are designed to simulate real conditions but they are not real conditions. It gives a basis for comparison for different formulas of glues for instance. No test can mimic 30 years of use in a short time span.

Supposing you stapled these blocks of wood and did the same procedures. What kind of results would you expect? I would not expect the test to be a good comparison between glue and mechanical fasteners. I would say a thirty year test would.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

> The History of Glue
> 
> Glues are part of a larger family called adhesives. Most adhesives are chemical based, while glue is generally made from organic compounds. These terms, however, are used loosely today and most adhesives are still referred to as “glue.” The earliest glues were made from various plant-based materials. The history of glue goes much farther back then most people think. The earliest evidence of the use of glue can still be observed in cave paintings made by our Neanderthal ancestors in Lascaux, France. These early artists wanted their work to last and mixed glue with the paint they used to help the colors resist the moisture of the cave walls. The oldest known glue used to hold things together dates back to approximately 200,000 BC, and is from spear stone flakes glued to wood with birch bark tar. The oldest known compound glue was made from plant gum and red ochre approximately 70,000 years BC, and was found in South Africa, so our ancestors were figuring out ways to stick two things together a long, long time ago!


The above is from this web page: http://www.bartleycollection.com/the-history-of-glue.html

The page makes reference to Antonio Stradivari who was know for some fairly durable wooden assemblies...


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## Bob J (Feb 25, 2013)

Even if the glue only adds a small amount of strength it's worth the extra assurance to me....


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## Alexander co (Dec 6, 2013)

I never used glue for strengthening, in my whole experience. Any how, i think the glue will break in few years. My trouble is an other. The nails i use in vertical position for top bars assembling,are 40 mm long & 2 mm as thickness. For this reason, sometimes the 8 mm thick side bars, are spliting. I see on the web sites, in the US are in use 1-1/4"x16 nails. I know what is meaning 1-1/4 ~ 35 mm, but i don't know x16. Can anyone explaine to me two things: 1. What kind of nails are you using for top bar. 2. what are signifying << x 16>>. I can suppose , but i want a certitude. Thanks a lot.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

The "16" is a wire gauge size, in other words, the diameter of the nail or staple legs. This site should help answer your questions.

For instance, the fasteners I use are 18 gauge (1.02 mm diameter) staples that are 1-1/4" (31.75 mm) long, and with the crown (space between legs) of the staple 1/4" (6.35 mm) wide.

When I staple through the End Bars, in order to fasten them to the Top Bars, I sometimes have a split, as you describe, but it is much less common with 18 gauge staples. I'm sure it would be much more of a problem with 16 gauge or larger.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Alexander co said:


> I see on the web sites, in the US are in use 1-1/4"x16 nails.


I think you are referring to a air nailer which is more like a staple vs. a nail. As usual anything American is complicated. A number 16 common nail would have a huge diameter in comparison to a 16 gauge nail. To make matters worse as the number gauge goes up the wire diameter gets smaller vs, opposite for numbered nails.


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## Ray4852 (May 27, 2011)

I glue and nail my frames together. 8 nails per frame. I wouldn’t staple frames together because they aren’t strong enough. Staples are a lazy mans way of doing a job.


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

Ray-
What makes you think staples aren't strong enough? I've tried to pull out 1/4" crown staples and have been very impressed with their strength and holding power (1-1/4" length).


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## Ray4852 (May 27, 2011)

Lets compare the diameter of a nail and staple. The nail is bigger and longer and will penetrate the wood a lot better. You can get them coated too for more strength. Staples are thin. Have less holding power. Staples are popular because they are easy to install and save time putting frames together.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ray, you are outdated. The pull strength of a staple far exceeds a nail driven with a hammer.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

:scratch: :s


I think the relative 'strength' of a nail vs staple depends on the diameter and length of the nail and staple being compared.

Certainly a 3/8" long staple has much _less _'pull strength' than 2" nail. Also nails come in varying designs. A ring-shank nail is much tougher to pull than a smooth nail of the same size.


I do use staples _plus _Titebond in assembling both boxes and frames. 



Don't forget the glue!


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## Alexander co (Dec 6, 2013)

Alexander co said:


> I
> I see on the web sites, in the US are in use 1-1/4"x16 nails. I know what is meaning 1-1/4 ~ 35 mm, Thanks a lot.


Thanks everybody. I am intersted by this: http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/1-lb1-1_4-Nails/productinfo/678/, Item nr 678 . More exactly, what size of diameter has it, in inches.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Those size wire nails are usually 16 or 17 gauge, which is 0.051 inches (1.291 mm) = 16 gauge, and 0.045 inches (1.149 mm) = 17 gauge in diameter. You'd likely need to check with the vendor (Brushy Mountain) to see which diameter theirs are.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Alexander co said:


> Thanks everybody. I am intersted by this: http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/1-lb1-1_4-Nails/productinfo/678/, Item nr 678 . More exactly, what size of diameter has it, in inches.


If it is a 3D box nail it should be .o76 Dia (14 1/2 gauge)


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> If it is a 3D box nail it should be .o76 Dia (14 1/2 gauge)


But it is clearly _NOT _14 1/2 gauge. Brushy Mountain states (see the link) that there are 1150 nails per lb. You can't do that with 14 1/2 gauge and 1 1/4" length steel nails.

I agree that _Joseph Clemens_ likely has it right.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You are right Dadant claims it is a 17 gauge nail (specialty).


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Alexander - note also that the Dadant frame nails (and possibly the Brushy Mountain ones too) are _cement coated _to maximize holding power.

http://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=204


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## dleemc1 (Dec 31, 2012)

I was working for some one else treating their bees for them they had the plastic queen excluders under there supers, pulled a lot of bottom bars off were the bees glued them to those excluders, wish they had been glued. not my stuff but sure does make a mess to try and work in. have a great day. I glue mine


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I bet the owner wished you had picked the box up a tad and sheared off the burr comb before you pulled the frames.


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## dleemc1 (Dec 31, 2012)

I was trying to pick the box up when it was pulling the bottom bars off


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

It would be nice to have a pic of these frames and the condition they were under. This only happened when the QE was between the box?


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