# Sugar Syrup preservative - Citric Acid and/or Sodium Benzoate ???



## onestory (May 30, 2016)

Snowball/Snocone stands use Citric Acid and/or Sodium Benzoate additives to make their sugar syrup last all summer unrefrigerated.

Are these additives safe for bees?

What are the pros/cons of using them?

Thanks!


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Sodium Benzoate is not fit for people I would not purposely give it to bees if you can avoid it. 

Mix your syrup as thick as you can it reduces spoilage (if I don't have crystals on the bottom it's not thick enough). 

Make it in a quantity that you can use at one time. Refrigerate any leftovers. 

I add Vit C - ascorbic acid (proven beneficial to bees)

Citric Acid can also be used.


----------



## Amiaji (Jun 8, 2017)

FlowerPlanter said:


> I add Vit C - ascorbic acid (proven beneficial to bees)
> 
> Citric Acid can also be used.


How much ascorbic acid or citric acid do you add per gallon?


----------



## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Sodium Benzoate is not fit for people I would not purposely give it to bees if you can avoid it.
> 
> Mix your syrup as thick as you can it reduces spoilage (if I don't have crystals on the bottom it's not thick enough).
> 
> ...


Benzoic acid is a natural component of many fruits. Horses and many other herbivores naturally produce a considerable amount of benzoic acid as they excrete ammonia as hippuric acid, a benzoic acid derivative. So, your statement that the sodium salt is not safe for humans seems inaccurate to say the least. Like every thing an overdose can cause health issues. So can too much water drank too fast.

Undergrad labs in organic chemistry used to often contain a section where the students purposely ate benzoic acid and isolated the hippuric acid they produced from their urine. Students suffered no harm from this experiment.


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

"What steps are being taken to reduce or eliminate benzene in beverages? 
FDA is working with the beverage industry to minimize benzene formation in products."

https://www.fda.gov/food/foodborneillnesscontaminants/chemicalcontaminants/ucm055131.htm#q2

http://www.med-health.net/Sodium-Benzoate.html


>How much ascorbic acid or citric acid do you add per gallon? 

I add about 1/8 a teaspoon per gallon, it will adjust the PH closer to the PH of nectar; which MB says will reduce disease. I also add a pinch of vitamins and minerals from the feed store (also show in studies to have health benefits to bees).


----------



## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

FlowerPlanter said:


> "What steps are being taken to reduce or eliminate benzene in beverages?
> FDA is working with the beverage industry to minimize benzene formation in products."
> 
> https://www.fda.gov/food/foodborneillnesscontaminants/chemicalcontaminants/ucm055131.htm#q2
> ...


Do you realize that sodium benzoate and benzene are two entirely different chemicals? If you think exposure to sodium benzoate is in any way an exposure to benzene you are 100% wrong.


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

The idea that you need to preserve syrup all summer is not a good idea.
Make up just what you need for that day. Dry sugar in a bag will store much much longer than in a solution.
The bees can preserve the syrup themselves and do a superior job.


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

From FDA link above;
"Benzene can form at very low levels (ppb level) in some beverages that contain both benzoate salts and ascorbic acid (vitamin C) or erythorbic acid (a closely related substance (isomer) also known as d-ascorbic acid)."

"Benzene is a carcinogen that can cause cancer in humans."




aunt betty said:


> The idea that you need to preserve syrup all summer is not a good idea.
> Make up just what you need for that day. Dry sugar in a bag will store much much longer than in a solution.
> The bees can preserve the syrup themselves and do a superior job.


Exactly


----------



## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Sugar itself is a preservative, if the concentration is high enough.

1:1 syrup will go bad. A number of experienced beekeepers here say they always mix 5:3. It is concentrated enough to have the preservative effect, but does not require the extra effort needed to make 2:1. My experience is that 1:1 will grow mold in a week, but 5:3 does not. We still prefer to mix as needed, but if we have some 5:3 left over, it will keep until the next feeding. And if the bees don't use it right away, it doesn't tend to mold in the feeder.

Vitamin C will deteriorate when exposed to air. I have nothing against adding it to syrup if you wish, and it will have some preservative effect, but it won't last for long.


----------



## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

FlowerPlanter said:


> From FDA link above;
> "Benzene can form at very low levels (ppb level) in some beverages that contain both benzoate salts and ascorbic acid (vitamin C) or erythorbic acid (a closely related substance (isomer) also known as d-ascorbic acid)."
> 
> "Benzene is a carcinogen that can cause cancer in humans."


There are lots of ways benzene can be formed in food products that have nothing at all to do with sodium benzoate. I know benzene causes cancer. It causes aplastic anemia. It takes rather massive amounts to cause cancer and many, many years exposure. FDA lists sodium benzoate as a generally recognized as safe food additive. If it is so dangerous why is it listed? Do you have any clue at all what it takes to get a GRAS listing? Did you know that every time you fill your gas tank on your car, lawn mower or weed whacker you are exposed to benzene, generally in much greater amounts than the tiny traces FDA has found in a whole variety of foods including bottled water that had zero preservatives added?


----------



## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Randy Oliver mixes bleach in his.:lookout:
(here we go)


----------



## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Phoebee said:


> Sugar itself is a preservative, if the concentration is high enough.
> 
> 1:1 syrup will go bad. A number of experienced beekeepers here say they always mix 5:3. It is concentrated enough to have the preservative effect, but does not require the extra effort needed to make 2:1. My experience is that 1:1 will grow mold in a week, but 5:3 does not. We still prefer to mix as needed, but if we have some 5:3 left over, it will keep until the next feeding. And if the bees don't use it right away, it doesn't tend to mold in the feeder.
> 
> Vitamin C will deteriorate when exposed to air. I have nothing against adding it to syrup if you wish, and it will have some preservative effect, but it won't last for long.


You are correct that the higher the sugar content the slower stuff grows. After feeding a couple of thousand pounds of sugar to honey bees. generally at more or less a 5:3 ratio my observation is that it makes no difference at all to the bees if all kinds of black stuff is growing in the feeders. They still eagerly suck down the syrup and use it to raise brood or add to stores for winter and both the brood and wintering bees do just fine. After all, the nectar they bring in from flowers often is loaded up with bacteria and fungi so the bees are used to removing those things already. I have even stored 5:3 over winter in my shop and fed the stuff the following spring with no problems. That 5:3 had no preservatives in it at all.


----------



## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

dry sugar has an indefinite shelf life, as long as it stays dry and vermin free, no preservatives needed. 
Adding water shortens the shelf life significantly, especially if you are using tap water that has not been sanitized, because of the number of contaminants that could cause fungal or bacterial fermentation or spoilage. 

As a home brewer, I carry over to my beekeeping the habit of boiling any water that is to come in contact with fermentable sugars, and sanitizing the containers used for syrup, in order to reduce the possibility of spoilage. I also only make as much as I need at any given time. Storing wet sugar without following sanitation practices is a sure path to fermentation or spoilage.

OTH, a lot of beeks just use hot tap water to make syrup, make it in large batches for convenience sake, simply rinse out the feeders, and consider spoiled syrup part of the cost of beekeeping. I don't have any argument with this practice. It's their money.


----------



## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Hops Brewster said:


> OTH, a lot of beeks just use hot tap water to make syrup, make it in large batches for convenience sake, simply rinse out the feeders, and consider spoiled syrup part of the cost of beekeeping. I don't have any argument with this practice. It's their money.


Never used hot water in my life to make 5:3. I would guess I waste about 0.01% of the syrup cleaning up grungy equipment. Probably less. That much sugar costs less than it would cost to heat the water which would not help reduce grunge anyhow as the first bee to stick its proboscis in the syrup is going to inoculate it..

I also made home brew. Never once boiled anything other than dry hops in a small amount of water to make hops tea to add to the brew. Just stuck the hose in the fermenter and filled it. Ran the same batch of yeast for about four years With no addition of new yeast and never had any of the bacterial issues all the cleanliness guys are always talking about. Maybe it is a scale thing? We ran 35 gallon fermenters mainly. I did make one batch in a garbage can with only a lid to keep air out. That batch had to age about four months after bottling to get really drinkable.


----------



## Scottsbee (Jan 11, 2017)

Hello
Keep seeing the 5:3 sugar mix. Is the ratio water to sugar? 

A 2:1 ratio is sugar(2) and water(1) correct? 

What's the benefit of 5:3 ratio??


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Syrup ratios are always specified with the sugar '_first_'. So 5:3 is 5 parts sugar to 3 parts water.

Higher ratios of sugar (like 2:1 and 5:3) are less likely to spoil than thinner ratios like 1:1. Or to phrase it slightly differently, high ratio syrups spoil more slowly than low ratio syrups. Also, to feed a given amount of sugar, since there is less water in high ratios, there is less weight. Weight can be important if one is carrying (or trucking) larger amounts of syrup. 

And if you are feeding for winter stores, higher ratio syrups mean less water for the colony to evaporate to get the syrup suitable for stored winter feed in the hive.


----------



## Scottsbee (Jan 11, 2017)

Thanks for clarifying! When I mix a 2:1 syrup it's pretty thick once cooled off. I've always heated the water to make sure all sugar gets melted in. 

What does the 5:3 look like as far as cups/pounds, how does that break down? 

2:1 I mix up 16 cups sugar to 8 cups water
Would 5:3 be 70 cps sugar to 24 cps water?? 

Does all the sugar melt? Seems the water would be saturated and not take all the sugar into solution. 

Thank you


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

You can't dissolve 2 to 1 without boiling water and spending extra time mixing a supersaturated solution. 5 to 3 can be mixed with warm water or room temperature to make it. Heating syrup also makes HMF which is toxic to bees, bees have been poisoned with HMF tainted corn syrup. I don't need to make any HMF no matter how small the amount. 

I also believe it's a waste of time and energy to heat the water first. I mix it thick and feed enough that it's gone in a few days, mainly in the spring and fall during cooler weather where you don't get mold anyways.


----------



## Scottsbee (Jan 11, 2017)

Isn't HMF only formed when heating corn sugar?? 
Boiling isn't necessary, just hotter than what my tap water is. Won't the syrup crystallize if all the sugar isn't melted into solution? 

I'm probably over thinking this!! At what amounts would you use to make up a 5 gallon bucket of 5:3?? Always like to save time and energy!!!!

Thank you


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> Would 5:3 be 70 cps sugar to 24 cps water?? 

I'm not sure what you mean by "cps", but in cups ...

5 cups sugar : 3 cups water
15 cups sugar : 9 cups water
50 cups sugar : 30 cups water
70 cups sugar : 42 cups water


----------



## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Scottsbee said:


> Isn't HMF only formed when heating corn sugar??
> Boiling isn't necessary, just hotter than what my tap water is. Won't the syrup crystallize if all the sugar isn't melted into solution?
> 
> I'm probably over thinking this!! At what amounts would you use to make up a 5 gallon bucket of 5:3?? Always like to save time and energy!!!!
> ...


25 pounds of sugar in a five gallon bucket. Fill with cold tap water to a total volume of a bit over four gallons and stir with a paint stirrer on your drill a couple of minutes. Refill with water as needed to get back to a total volume of four gallons. Stir for a minute or two a couple of times during the day and use it the next morning. This is about as much sugar as you are going to dissolve with ease and the bees do not give a hang what the concentration is. There will generally be a little undissolved sugar on the bottom of the bucket. It is real close to 5:3. No matter what the concentration is the bees do exactly the same thing with it. More dilute just makes the bees waste a lot of energy evaporating waste water. I just checked yesterday out of curiosity to see how stuff I had made up last fall looked now. I had about three gallons left over. It looks just fine and when I start fall feeding next week it will be the first to go on the hive. Zero preservatives in that stuff I stored at room temp all winter. This has been my usual experience with storing the stuff. Put it in clean covered containers it stores a long time. Put it in a feeder on the hive and it will be growing black stuff in the feeder in a week. I clean the black stuff out every month or so with bleach so the holes on the gallon paint can feeders do not plug off. Use a frame feeder you would never need to clean. When you feed a few hundred pounds of sugar you do not have time to be fooling around doing all kinds of unneeded stuff that does not help the bees a bit.


----------



## Scottsbee (Jan 11, 2017)

Thank you Richard and Rader

Is HMF formed from boiling regular sugar? Thought it was only formed when using Corn syrup.


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Now that we're all experts at feeding sugar to bees how do you convince honey customers that they aren't buying it? (sugar)


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Scottsbee said:


> Is HMF formed from boiling regular sugar? Thought it was only formed when using Corn syrup.


HMF can be formed from a variety of sugars, including HFCS (high fructose corn syrup), cane/beet sugar, and even honey itself.

More on HMF from Dr John Skinner here:
https://ask.extension.org/questions/376963


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>Isn't HMF only formed when heating corn sugar?? 

It can also be made with sucrose (table sugar), In this study below it was beet sugar;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24127696

https://honeybeesuite.com/hydroxymethylfurfural-in-sugar-syrup/

>Won't the syrup crystallize if all the sugar isn't melted into solution? 

Heating water enables a supersaturated solution that may recrystallize when it cools. A mixture of 5 to 3 is less likely to recrystallize than a 2 to 1 that must be heat to make. 

http://preparatorychemistry.com/Bishop_supersaturated.htm

>When you feed a few hundred pounds of sugar you do not have time to be fooling around doing all kinds of unneeded stuff that does not help the bees a bit. 

+1


----------



## Scottsbee (Jan 11, 2017)

Great link about HMF. No more cooking sugar syrup for the bees. Lucky my bees are still alive!! Learned something, thank you!!


----------



## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

Soundslike it's time for a dose of reality. The NIH article says HMF is toxicto rats and mice and produced during the Maillard and caramelizationprocess. So that means every time you sear a steak or make caramel candy,you're making poison. Really??? There's also a lot of "weaselwords" in there like HMF presence in food is "stillcontroversial" and the losses of bees fed inverted beet sugar "couldbe implicated" in bee mortality. Double speak. And who invertssyrup prior to feeding?

Nearly everything I've read says that HMF is formed from heating fructose - asin High Fructose Corn Syrup - not sucrose. Fructose caramelizes at a muchlower temperature than sucrose. Skinner's article says sucrose is glucoseand fructose as if it's a mixture of the two and not a chemically differentsubstance. Then actually suggests not heating sugar syrup above100F. Baloney.

Adding heat to help dissolve sugar just isn't that big a deal. First,sugar is denser than water so adding room temperature sugar even to boilingwater will drop the temperature substantially. Sucrose doesn't caramelizeuntil well over 300F so you'd have to boil off all the water at 212F beforecaramelization would occur. Any localized caramelization (maybe from hotspots over a flame) can be avoided by stirring.

If you want some good info on syrup and feeding (and the HMF issue). Isuggest this link:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-3/

He suggests (through some testing) that HFCS with too much HMF might bedetectable through simple tasting or color inspection.

I don't trust any source implicitly, but I would trust this source ahead of theothers that were quoted.

I hate to see tried and true beekeeping techniques avoided by beginners (andincreasing risk of failure) over misapplied information which seems to happenmore and more.


----------

