# OA treatment of bee package



## BEENT (Jan 10, 2016)

Is is OK to treat a new bee package just introduced into the hive with oxalic acid?


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

If you plan to do OAV, yes do so after about 5 days of the queen laying actively. This will ensure the max amount of varroa out of the cell. 

If you plan to do OAD, I wouldn't do so that soon.


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## BEENT (Jan 10, 2016)

Will be using OAV. Thanks for the response.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You recommend that OAV be applied to a colony of bees 5 days after the newly installed package's queen has started laying? I would think that would be a rather sensitive time to do anything to a package of bees. And I would think that an OA dribble would be less intrusive and invasive to the colony.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

In europe they do OAD prior to hiving the bees from new packages. But do so prior to adding the queen to the boxes. The OAV doesn't really bother the bees once in the hive. I did it to 15 packages last season without any problems at all. They built up better and stronger without the mites.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Was a mite count done before treating?


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Honestly Mark, No. I treated with OAV, then a couple days later rechecked each hive. Found plenty of dead mites on the solid bottom boards. All queens were still laying and appeared to be healthy. At that time I was happy with the results. Later on down the line into July, I did do mite counts with alcohol wash. The mite counts on the hives were at 2% and they got MAQS. 

I'm a treater when it's needed for sure. Loosing bees to mites sucks. I do check the counts a few times each season to make sure of where they are to determine when I treat. I know as my hive count gets larger, there will be more time spent keeping the health of the colonies in shape. Hopefully some of he genetics from the Purdue queen line helps in that matter. This next season will tell for sure.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Why would you not think that an alcohol wash before the treatment would be a good thing to do?


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

It isn't that I don't think an alcohol wash before treatment would be good to do. For me, It was more of a decision of do I want to kill those 300 bees from the package when they could be helping to keep the cluster warm on those early april nights. I based my decision on the way a package of bees declines in population prior to ever having more new bees emerge. My thoughts were that OAV isn't supposed to bother the bees, so it would be better in my case to do a carpet treatment to kill off as many varroa and know i'd have healthy bees emerge from that first round of brood.

I think that if a person was in a warm area or starting their packages later than I did, it may be a good thing to do to check them. If for no other reason than to see how well the package producer was keeping their mites in check prior to shaking the bees.

Now i've questions for you. If you were put into the same situation as I. Starting packages, early april in NY. Knowing that you could get rid of most of the package mites. Would you do alcohol washes on each, a portion of them, or blanket treatment with OAV/OAD ?

Your answers to those questions should be based upon your style of management and what you feel would be best in your situation. We as beekeepers, wether hobby, sideliner, commercial, all do the same things. Try to figure out what works best for us, and repeat it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I guess I would talk to the package producer and find out what they do to "control" mites. No, I would not check every package, but I would check one out of ten.

It does appear that what you have been doing is effective. Keep it up.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

BEENT said:


> Is is OK to treat a new bee package just introduced into the hive with oxalic acid?


If you want a bunch of them to absconded than yes.

I agree with Mark on this, check them first and see if they need treatment before applying a treatment.

I would also do it while they are in the package rather than in the hive, and I would remove the queen first.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

I've OAV'd several packages prior to placing in the hive with no ill effect on either the bees or queen. I just placed the package on level ground under a cardboard box. Set the vaporizer under the box with it with a 1/2 gram of OA and vaporize.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I would definitely OAV any new package if I ever have to get one. I am quite isolated from hives other than my own so this continued fight with mites are from the original bees that I brought in. If I had been smarter some 6 years ago I would have removed the queens from the packages and used OAV at least a couple of times before hiving the packages. Its too late now as the genie is out of the bottle.
Johno


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

If I were going to do this...I think I would put the package w/queen inside the hive without releasing the bees. OAV them. Then later that day or the next turn 'em loose. I haven't done it but it would seem like it would allow them to settle down post treatment...while still in the package. Just a thought.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

If you use sublimation will the vapor adequately penetrate the cluster in a package?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

bluegrass said:


> If you use sublimation will the vapor adequately penetrate the cluster in a package?


My sense is that it would depend on the temp. A cold, tightly packed cluster...probably not. At higher temps...I don't see a problem.


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

beemandan said:


> If I were going to do this...I think I would put the package w/queen inside the hive without releasing the bees. OAV them. Then later that day or the next turn 'em loose. I haven't done it but it would seem like it would allow them to settle down post treatment...while still in the package. Just a thought.


There used to be a German video about the rotary system of beekeeping where packages are sprayed with a solution of perezene (a fluvalinate) while still in the package box and left on check paper overnight before being united with their daughter colonies. The papers were then mite counted for queen rearing record purposes(I think). 
Unfortunately the videos don't seem to be available anymore, the beekeeper was an admirably calm and efficient lady much to be admired.
Obviously, with treating a package, there are very little comb contamination issues.


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

Before hiving them, warm air, between 117°F and 118°F for 10 minutes, will do the job.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sjj said:


> Before hiving them, warm air, between 117°F and 118°F for 10 minutes, will do the job.


And how would one control the temperature to keep it between 117-118 for 10 minutes?


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

Please accept my humble suggestion. 
One could use a small hot room.


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

sjj said:


> Please accept my humble suggestion.
> One could use a small hot room.


Does that kill the mites?


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## rv10flyer (Feb 25, 2015)

http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFile...1-400/384-Harbo--Heating Adult Honey Bees.pdf

I'll stick with OAV.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

drlonzo said:


> In europe they do OAD prior to hiving the bees from new packages. But do so prior to adding the queen to the boxes. The OAV doesn't really bother the bees once in the hive. I did it to 15 packages last season without any problems at all. They built up better and stronger without the mites.


So ou hive the bees...queen in cage. Pull the cage for 10 min or so while you Vapourizer the package bees and then replace the queen cage for release?


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Janne - What I did was simply hived the bees as normal. Went back after queen was released, removed cage as normal, then waited 5 days. Did the OAV after making sure there was brood. I didn't want the brood to be too close to capped and the mites already be in the cells hiding. 
I should add that when I hive bees from packages, I use a simple marshmallow in the release hole. Normally only takes at most a day for release. 

I followed the method above just in case something did happen to the queen during the process there would be eggs/larva to make a new queen.


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

sterling
Imagine naked bees in a hot room. 
It's simple and solves the problem.


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## bearcavesaga (Jan 13, 2021)

mbc said:


> There used to be a German video about the rotary system of beekeeping where packages are sprayed with a solution of perezene (a fluvalinate) while still in the package box and left on check paper overnight before being united with their daughter colonies. The papers were then mite counted for queen rearing record purposes(I think).
> Unfortunately the videos don't seem to be available anymore, the beekeeper was an admirably calm and efficient lady much to be admired.
> Obviously, with treating a package, there are very little comb contamination issues.


i just sawthat video on youtube jan 13 2021 i am a new beekeeper in central florida. i receive my package in late march. i asked the usda insp and she said ova is good if temps below 90 but ask producer who told me they treat in the fall. after reading your posts. ...thxs... i will ova while bees in package while inverted in hive like the youtube from triad bee supply suggested using an empty brood box on top to cover package with shim and lid. any advice is appreciated


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

bearcavesaga said:


> i just sawthat video on youtube jan 13 2021 i am a new beekeeper in central florida. i receive my package in late march. i asked the usda insp and she said ova is good if temps below 90 but ask producer who told me they treat in the fall. after reading your posts. ...thxs... i will ova while bees in package while inverted in hive like the youtube from triad bee supply suggested using an empty brood box on top to cover package with shim and lid. any advice is appreciated


Welcome to beekeeping and the site. I would ask your supplier if they treat as many do these days. If not, I think Most would advise that you hive the package and then treat after they have settled in, but before they have capped any cells. As you may know, oxalic acid is an effective treatment for phoretic mites. The treatment is unable to penetrate the wax cappings so that's why it is best to give them a shot before cells are capped. If you plan on treating exclusively with a OAV, it needs to be done in a series so you are eventually treating all (most really) of the bees, and killing mites before a cell is capped. There are lots of discussions on this and timing has changed, so look for posts within the past 2 years. Best of luck and welcome aboard. J


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Bearcavesaga, The consensus among experienced beekeepers is to NOT treat a package until after they have drawn some comb and the queen is laying, but BEFORE any of the brood is capped, 9 days after the first egg is laid. Packages are not anchored well since there is no comb or brood in the hive and the queen is not laying. I would hate for you to treat them too soon, only to have the entire colony abscond shortly thereafter. There is no upper temperature limitation on OAV, lower temp is around 40-45 degrees F. Any colder and the bees are in too tight of a cluster for the treatment to do much good.

OAV is OA applied as a vaporized dust using a heating device that sublimates the OA. OAD is a dribble or spray application of OA dissolved in a light sugar syrup.


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## bearcavesaga (Jan 13, 2021)

JWPalmer said:


> Bearcavesaga, The consensus among experienced beekeepers is to NOT treat a package until after they have drawn some comb and the queen is laying, but BEFORE any of the brood is capped, 9 days after the first egg is laid. Packages are not anchored well since there is no comb or brood in the hive and the queen is not laying. I would hate for you to treat them too soon, only to have the entire colony abscond shortly thereafter. There is no upper temperature limitation on OAV, lower temp is around 40-45 degrees F. Any colder and the bees are in too tight of a cluster for the treatment to do much good.
> 
> OAV is OA applied as a vaporized dust using a heating device that sublimates the OA. OAD is a dribble or spray application of OA dissolved in a light sugar syrup.


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## bearcavesaga (Jan 13, 2021)

thanks for the very sound advice about assuring eggs and brood before treating mites in the package to ensure survival of the hive after package install. getting advice from this forum is really helpful.


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

If a mite hides in the food stored in a cell before capping and breaths through a snorkel at what point is OAV useless, as it attacks mites through their feet?
I would want to treat packages and swarms before that point.


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

JWPalmer said:


> Bearcavesaga, The consensus among experienced beekeepers is to NOT treat a package until after they have drawn some comb and the queen is laying, but BEFORE any of the brood is capped, 9 days after the first egg is laid. Packages are not anchored well since there is no comb or brood in the hive and the queen is not laying. I would hate for you to treat them too soon, only to have the entire colony abscond shortly thereafter. There is no upper temperature limitation on OAV, lower temp is around 40-45 degrees F. Any colder and the bees are in too tight of a cluster for the treatment to do much good.
> 
> OAV is OA applied as a vaporized dust using a heating device that sublimates the OA. OAD is a dribble or spray application of OA dissolved in a light sugar syrup.


One reason I have gathered is the bees will turn on the queen, since her pheromones aren't full force yet.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

BEENT said:


> Is is OK to treat a new bee package just introduced into the hive with oxalic acid?


If you're buying packages that have varroa, probably time to find a new supplier.


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

username00101 said:


> If you're buying packages that have varroa, probably time to find a new supplier.


I was just reading an article by Randy Oliver (the guru of killing mites) where he talked about a year that timing was just off and despite treating the mites got away from him.

Better safe than sorry. Why not treat after the queen starts laying but before there is capped brood?


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

ifixoldhouses said:


> One reason I have gathered is the bees will turn on the queen, since her pheromones aren't full force yet.


I have heard (and seen) that with Formic Acid. I have never had (or heard) that problem with OA.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

username00101 said:


> If you're buying packages that have varroa, probably time to find a new supplier.


what packages don't have varroa ?

A package can show zero mites on a alcohol wash (meaning they are coming from a supplier who is doing very good mite control) and still have 30 mites
Every mite you kill in april is 62 mites you or the bees don't have to deal with in oct, that's 1860 mites (not counting drift) at the end of the year vs 60 or so if you OAV the package at a 97% kill rate.

say the package producer is following thresholds his hives were at 1% when the package was shook, not time to treat yet.... thats a starting load of 105 and 6720 mites by OCT and likely a mite bomb. 

It pays dividends to treat a package.. and its good beekeeping.. If it was SOP there would be al lot less 1st year beekeepers with dead hives right about now, and a lot less people fighting mite bombs e


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

_It's bad beekeeping to sell mite infested packages._

Especially if they're going to be charging such high prices.

I agree that mites should be addressed in packages, but I disagree the customer should be responsible for taking care of that responsibility (although it seems like they're being forced to take on that burden),.


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