# Argh Apivar! - Ever pull a strip with a mite on it?



## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Ok, that was admittedly a little click-bait. Although I would like to hear that story if anyone did. 😂

So I’m running about 25isb colonies almost equally split between 9 weeks of above-label count of Apivar strips, and no treatment at all in 2021.

I was looking at a few pics I took today (thankfully we had another flight day) and I intended to crop a good close-up of a few healthy-looking bees to post. Within 2-3 minutes I saw the bee in the pic.

I know nothing is 100%, but that was 5 strips in a deep/medium with manufacturing date of 9-30-2020. There is very little brood in any of them and none in smaller colonies. I guess I’ll go the vape route on the hives I’m actually treating. But this is a disappointment.


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

Did you do a mite roll on all of your hives to assess the mite load?


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

I believe that Apivar is getting less and less effective in controlling mites. It seems that there are pockets where it is still effective, but I suspect even those will succumb


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## JB33 (Jul 27, 2021)

This has been my experience this year using Apivar. Have used it for 5 years or so with great results. This year it barely touched the mites after 2 full treatments. Lost a fair number of colonies because of it but it was my fault for letting the mite count get as high as it did. I've also heard a lot of similar reports too. 

Makes me wonder what the issue is. My theory is that the mites are getting resistant to the dose Apivar is providing. I also suspect that the level of mite infestation has a big impact as well. If you have a lot of mites to start with and Apivar is losing efficacy you'll still have a lot of mites at the end of the treatment. This is of course goes for any treatment, but the lower the efficacy the more important the starting mite count becomes. Just my thoughts.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

elmer_fud said:


> Did you do a mite roll on all of your hives to assess the mite load?


No, about the only way I test for mites is physically tearing down drone brood. In cases where I felt it was necessary I've taken pics of every side of every frame, then zoomed in later and checked out every bee, but only on experimental hives. I realize not many mites are represented by the number you find crawling around on the backs of the bees, therefore if I see one in a whole hive I'm on guard. 


rbees said:


> I believe that Apivar is getting less and less effective in controlling mites. It seems that there are pockets where it is still effective, but I suspect even those will succumb


Someone on another forum was worrying about leaving strips for 1 extra day as it was raining on day 56. I told her that it was no big deal. At this point someone else jumped in and lectured me about leaving a small / ineffective dose was dangerous as the mites would build tolerance. While this is obvious, I replied that we could safely assume any mite still walking around after 56 days of Apivar treatment was immune. 


joebee33 said:


> This has been my experience this year using Apivar. Have used it for 5 years or so with great results. This year it barely touched the mites after 2 full treatments. Lost a fair number of colonies because of it but it was my fault for letting the mite count get as high as it did. I've also heard a lot of similar reports too.
> 
> Makes me wonder what the issue is. My theory is that the mites are getting resistant to the dose Apivar is providing. I also suspect that the level of mite infestation has a big impact as well. If you have a lot of mites to start with and Apivar is losing efficacy you'll still have a lot of mites at the end of the treatment. This is of course goes for any treatment, but the lower the efficacy the more important the starting mite count becomes. Just my thoughts.


Good point, and I wonder as well. Whether the efficacy is diminishing (tolerance) or the product/manufacturing is getting shoddy and the dosage can't be relied upon really gets irrelevant to us. We have no way to accurately measure what is coming out of those strips. I had almost rather think the company has cut corners, as the alternative is a breed of mites with one less thing to kill them. 

I have the tools but haven't done mite washes thus far. This next year I will probably have to make this part of my routine. In general, I don't think mite loads are high, and I believe the broodless periods of my current strain of bees would definitely help with this. This coupled with the fact that I'm more than a little isolated puts me in a good, but odd spot. I'm not accepting many mites from outside, but healthy hives that keep mites at bay in my area may not stand up under the strain of being sold to areas that are loaded with mites. 


Thanks All - Joe


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## Haveuseen1? (Jun 21, 2017)

It is possible that your bee if it is your bee just brought the mite back from a flight. I also don’t think Apivar is 100% and I don’t think they claim to be, so you could be looking at the small % that make it. Honestly without a baseline of where you started with mites and where you currently are after treatment it is all just a guess on if anything works for you.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Apivar does not work as advertised.

Last year I made the mistake of using apivar in some of my colonies, long story short, it did not control the mites as well as advertised.

I got much better results with oxalic acid, for about 1/100th the price.


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## JasonA (Aug 29, 2014)

Yes. I pulled strips and saw mites on bees. That's why I don't use it anymore. I did mite washes before and after.


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## JB33 (Jul 27, 2021)

joebeewhisperer said:


> No, about the only way I test for mites is physically tearing down drone brood. In cases where I felt it was necessary I've taken pics of every side of every frame, then zoomed in later and checked out every bee, but only on experimental hives. I realize not many mites are represented by the number you find crawling around on the backs of the bees, therefore if I see one in a whole hive I'm on guard.
> 
> Someone on another forum was worrying about leaving strips for 1 extra day as it was raining on day 56. I told her that it was no big deal. At this point someone else jumped in and lectured me about leaving a small / ineffective dose was dangerous as the mites would build tolerance. While this is obvious, I replied that we could safely assume any mite still walking around after 56 days of Apivar treatment was immune.
> 
> ...


I had a long conversation with the folks at Veto Pharma (the manufacturer of Apivar) and they assured me there are no manufacturing errors. I heard reports that there were but they confirmed those to be rumors. I believe them after seeing the factory and the quality control measures. You can watch the factory tour in this video here. Visit of the Veto Pharma Manufacturing Plant 

They had no explanation of why I had the results that I did. But if they want to keep their customer base then they'd better address this issue sooner than later as Apivar is quickly loosing consumer confidence. Perhaps it's time for an update with a stronger dose but that will likely never happen due to registration costs and many other factors.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

No resistance where I am, but I have had apivar fail because it was left sitting in a hot cab. Once I figured out the problem if it's a hot day I have the air con on when driving, and when I pull into a site I take the apivar out and put it in the shade under the truck.
When I get home the apivar is not left in the truck I put it inside, somewhere the sun won't shine on it.

Since doing all that I've had no more issues.

We have been using apivar here for a lot longer than you have in the US, it is now the go to treatment as most of the other synthetics are no longer reliable. We do not to my knowledge, have anyone here using tactic or similar, and this might also be why apivar is going the distance.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Between Bob Binnie, myself, and 2 other guys I know dropping it due to lack of mite kill there goes 60k worth of yearly apivar sells. 
I don't trust it at all. Too bad, was one of the best options we had.


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## Akademee (Apr 5, 2020)

I wonder how many people are using last year's Apivar? Amitraz (Apivar's active ingredient) is very sensitive to light and oxidation. Once you crack that pouch open, the reaction starts and is irreversible once it is exposed to air. Some people (myself included) believed that they could rewrap an open pack and throw it in the freezer for use next year. That does not seem to be an option with open pouches with ApiVar. I use new Apivar every year now with low winter losses. Any extra strips I have I sell at cost to other beekeepers in my area.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

The next logical step in this process is the extended release oxalic acid.

Mites cannot get resistance to oxalic acid, as they cannot get resistance to formic acid.

Thymol is also quite effective, from what I've read. Never used thymol but good to know that it works.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

Oldtimer
could you tell us what percentage of Amitraz is in your strips, just wondering if the ingredients are different than what is in the USA.
Just a thought.

The USA has 3.33%


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Haveuseen1? said:


> It is possible that your bee if it is your bee just brought the mite back from a flight. I also don’t think Apivar is 100% and I don’t think they claim to be, so you could be looking at the small % that make it. Honestly without a baseline of where you started with mites and where you currently are after treatment it is all just a guess on if anything works for you.


I get that, and it's possible it was the only mite in the hive. Just an experience I won't forget.


Oldtimer said:


> No resistance where I am, but I have had apivar fail because it was left sitting in a hot cab. Once I figured out the problem if it's a hot day I have the air con on when driving, and when I pull into a site I take the apivar out and put it in the shade under the truck.
> When I get home the apivar is not left in the truck I put it inside, somewhere the sun won't shine on it.
> 
> Since doing all that I've had no more issues.
> ...





Akademee said:


> I wonder how many people are using last year's Apivar? Amitraz (Apivar's active ingredient) is very sensitive to light and oxidation. Once you crack that pouch open, the reaction starts and is irreversible once it is exposed to air. Some people (myself included) believed that they could rewrap an open pack and throw it in the freezer for use next year. That does not seem to be an option with open pouches with ApiVar. I use new Apivar every year now with low winter losses. Any extra strips I have I sell at cost to other beekeepers in my area.


This was shipped in 50-packs from Mann Lake to my door where it was placed in a cool, dry room inside my house for 3 weeks. I used about 25-30 one day and wrapped the rest up tight in a ziplock where they were used a few days later. The hive in question was #1 in the sequence so the strips had been out of the pack maybe 20-30min while I put screws through the hole to hang them rather than use the tabs. Then they went straight in on an average day with temps in 75-80F range and no rain.


Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> Between Bob Binnie, myself, and 2 other guys I know dropping it due to lack of mite kill there goes 60k worth of yearly apivar sells.
> I don't trust it at all. Too bad, was one of the best options we had.


I had heard you guys talking about losing confidence in the product. Mr. Binnie mentioned it several times, though not in a damaging way to the manufacture, more like a "I really wish this had worked" way.

I guess it's time to buy a fancy-schmancy OA vape outfit for the hives I am treating. They got 2 OA dribbles last Nov-Dec about a month apart, and nothing else.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

G3farms said:


> could you tell us what percentage of Amitraz is in your strips, just wondering if the ingredients are different than what is in the USA......
> The USA has 3.33%


Just took a look at a label, it says "Contains 33g/kg amitraz in the form of an impregnated plastic strip".

A kg is 1,000 grams, so 33 grams per 1,000 grams would be 3.3%


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> No, about the only way I test for mites is physically tearing down drone brood. In cases where I felt it was necessary I've taken pics of every side of every frame, then zoomed in later and checked out every bee, but only on experimental hives. I realize not many mites are represented by the number you find crawling around on the backs of the bees, therefore if I see one in a whole hive I'm on guard.


I would recomend starting sugar or alcohol rolls to count mites instead of looking at pictures. Both will be more accurate and will do a much better job of telling you that you have a problem.


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## Haveuseen1? (Jun 21, 2017)

On The Bob Bonnie video with I think Georgia they also said OAV wasn’t doing anything other than holding the mite count. It wasn’t really eliminating them due to the lack of brood break in the south. I do use OAV and Apivar and so far have had good results.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Oldtimer said:


> Just took a look at a label, it says "Contains 33g/kg amitraz in the form of an impregnated plastic strip".
> 
> A kg is 1,000 grams, so 33 grams per 1,000 grams would be 3.3%


If that actually means that it’s 3.3% by weight of the strip itself, that seems like an impressive dose (assuming much of that gets delivered).


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

elmer_fud said:


> I would recomend starting sugar or alcohol rolls to count mites instead of looking at pictures. Both will be more accurate and will do a much better job of telling you that you have a problem.


I get that, and I’m not trying to buck conventional wisdom and practices that are tried and true. I’m not the guy that’s going to brag about the practice he stumbled on that no one else knows about. And the race of bees he’s masterfully bred (even though he’s using open-mating). And how he’s going to revolutionize all of beekeeping with his magic bees and 3-step process. 😂 Then come back in spring asking why 75% of my bees mysteriously died.

This year I went from 7 hives and 7 nucs to about 45 (counting what was sold) and I went from 0 dedicated mating nucs to 44 by mid-season, while working a job. The moving around of bees and brood breaks probably covered a lot of mite-count ignorance. But I’m not banking on that to last.

In order to reach my goals I had a philosophy that if I had 300 bees to spare, they were going in a mini to help a queen get mated. I did some drone larvae dissecting in places where I really wanted a good idea of how “mitey” a colony was.

As far as end goals, I’d like to have (and sell a few) bees that can deal with mites with minimal outside help. I don’t care if they only produce one super more than they consume, if they produce it year over year. I realize many of the traits I like about my current bees ( stop laying after a dearth of 5 minutes ) I have completely circumvented by feeding almost constantly to get the growth I wanted.

So in general I’m trying to get my head wrapped around a large set of variables in the midst of what I can only assume is a chasm of my own ignorance. 😜


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## Kuro (Jun 18, 2015)

joebeewhisperer said:


> If that actually means that it’s 3.3% by weight of the strip itself, that seems like an impressive dose (assuming much of that gets delivered).


3.3% sounds about right, considering tick collars for dogs (effective for 3 months) contain 9% amitraz.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

I was just wondering if other countries had different strength of amitraz in them


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Haveuseen1? said:


> On The Bob Bonnie video with I think Georgia they also said OAV wasn’t doing anything other than holding the mite count. It wasn’t really eliminating them due to the lack of brood break in the south. I do use OAV and Apivar and so far have had good results.


I'm glad that's working. I have some poly hives so vapor would (or will) be tricky. But I will probably use an OA dribble on my treated hives. I realize there was nothing scientific about seeing a mite after a treatment. I really thought an adequate number of strips would kill every mite in miles. lol ... or at least a box.

But in reality I don't know how many were killed, or how many are left. I know clusters are shrinking on their own accord and they are all-but broodless. Never be a better time to introduce some form of OA.


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## conchoreb (Apr 24, 2017)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Ok, that was admittedly a little click-bait. Although I would like to hear that story if anyone did. 😂
> 
> So I’m running about 25isb colonies almost equally split between 9 weeks of above-label count of Apivar strips, and no treatment at all in 2021.
> 
> ...


Be good if everyone would put their location. As someone mentioned there may be pockets of the country where it is more effective than in others.


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## Kuro (Jun 18, 2015)

G3farms said:


> I was just wondering if other countries had different strength of amitraz in them


Apivar (3.33% Amitraz in plastic polymer strips, https://www.blog-veto-pharma.com/us...apivar-find-out-more-about-its-manufacturing/) is made in France, and is approved in EU countries, UK, USA, New Zealand and Japan. I believe use of Amitraz for honey bees, other than the form of Apivar, is illegal in these countries, but I may be wrong about some countries.

Ukraine makes ‘Amitraz plus’, thin wood strips containing 6.75mg Amitraz per strip (Amitraz 50 Strips ( Amipol,Amitraz ) - Loopyvet). Maybe Russian beekeepers use this one?

I could not find Amitraz strips made in China, but they do sell Amitraz solution in ampoules for bee hives.

I do not know what beekeepers in Middle East use.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I am stuck with Apivar and OAV. I really don't have other options in south Alabama when my super come off in July. If I could wait until late fall, I could treat with Thymol or Formic. But waiting is not an option. I tried the OAV-only route for a couple of years. Wore myself out. I am sure I was doing some good, but I was still losing hives. Apivar is the only thing that is effective for me in July, when I still have 5-7 frames of brood. I treated 58 hives with Apivar this year. I don't do pre-treatment sampling in July. I have not had more than 3 mites in any post-treatment alcohol wash this season. In full disclosure, I have sampled only 10 to 12 hives post-treatment. I suppose Apivar still works here. Until it doesn't. 

If Apivar loses its efficacy in my area, and we do not get another heat-tolerant miticide or treatment strategy, I may be out of the bee business.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

psm1212 said:


> If Apivar loses its efficacy in my area, and we do not get another heat-tolerant miticide or treatment strategy, I may be out of the bee business.


Yes, I heard the guy at the FL State bee lab say on a recent video that the bee business for the last 15-20 years has been built on the back of Amitraz. The context was that if it truly loses efficacy (or perhaps when), that they definitely want to have some new alternatives. I thought his statement was a pretty strong endorsement as well as a warning. Someone who studies bees at the university level probably has a pretty good handle on where things are headed. 

Another interesting piece was their fairly recent ability to raise queens in the lab, start to finish, without her ever being tended by a nurse bee. But this is a different topic.


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## rdimanin (Jan 17, 2020)

Ditto on not using Apivar ever again. It just doesn't work as well anymore. The miticides that I rotate throughout the year are OAV, Formic Pro, Hopguard III, ApilifeVar & Apiguard. Some beeks are in for a rude awakening when they treat with Apivar & get higher counts afterward like I experienced. When it happened to me last fall, it was too late to re-treat at that time & I lost multiple colonies. Since Apivar is synthetic chemical miticide, very significant resistance will develop/has developed leading to a lot of heartache. It's probably BMP at this point to transition away from Apivar into organic chemicals. Just some thoughts.
PS: I miss going into my hives already. Only 4 more months to go!!!


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## j.dickhdequip (Nov 4, 2021)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Ok, that was admittedly a little click-bait. Although I would like to hear that story if anyone did. 😂
> 
> So I’m running about 25isb colonies almost equally split between 9 weeks of above-label count of Apivar strips, and no treatment at all in 2021.
> 
> ...


Personally, with strips, I always use Formic Acid for everything now. Mites, when they first came onto the scene many, many years ago in Canada, I never heard such a thing. When I inspected my hives at the time (300), I saw them, but basically I thought like other things like to hibernate with the bees, and the bees would get rid of them. However, going into the winter like any other year, losses are expected with this many hives, normally prior to the mites, I would loose 1 - 15 normally pending the strength. With this mites unchecked at the time when I went into the winter like any other winter prior, by spring I lost 100% of the hives. I said at the time, the hell with it, and beekeeping was finished for me. This was in the summer, the mites were discussed, and brought to the Canadian Beekeepers. Apparently at the time, overseas had these mites, but at the end of the day who cares where they were from the end result that myself and so many other beekeepers lost so many hives when they first came to North America.

I put full doses of Formic in the Spring, and after the honey flow. Always full doses, and during the summer if they need it, they get it, pads, and through the mosquito vaporizer! Bees hate it, and the mites die from it, and that's great for me!

Bluntly putting it, these strips, I personally, and this is my own personal belief, is that not enough meds are put into them to make them clear the mites out. I also think that this maybe the reason why so many mites, are being immune to the strips. I think its a matter of time that all the strips no matter the area will have some form of immunity from them.


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## JB33 (Jul 27, 2021)

j.dickhdequip said:


> Personally, with strips, I always use Formic Acid for everything now. Mites, when they first came onto the scene many, many years ago in Canada, I never heard such a thing. When I inspected my hives at the time (300), I saw them, but basically I thought like other things like to hibernate with the bees, and the bees would get rid of them. However, going into the winter like any other year, losses are expected with this many hives, normally prior to the mites, I would loose 1 - 15 normally pending the strength. With this mites unchecked at the time when I went into the winter like any other winter prior, by spring I lost 100% of the hives. I said at the time, the hell with it, and beekeeping was finished for me. This was in the summer, the mites were discussed, and brought to the Canadian Beekeepers. Apparently at the time, overseas had these mites, but at the end of the day who cares where they were from the end result that myself and so many other beekeepers lost so many hives when they first came to North America.
> 
> I put full doses of Formic in the Spring, and after the honey flow. Always full doses, and during the summer if they need it, they get it, pads, and through the mosquito vaporizer! Bees hate it, and the mites die from it, and that's great for me!
> 
> Bluntly putting it, these strips, I personally, and this is my own personal belief, is that not enough meds are put into them to make them clear the mites out. I also think that this maybe the reason why so many mites, are being immune to the strips. I think its a matter of time that all the strips no matter the area will have some form of immunity from them.


I think you're probably right. There's probably a fine line where the strips work but also don't contaminate the hive with residues. Apivar seems to work mainly by providing a small but continuous dose killing the mites indirectly by affecting their behavior. If you gave them enough Amitraz they would probably die outright but who knows what that would do to the bees, wax, brood, honey etc... My assumption, after thinking about this for several days now, is that because it's a sublethal dose, the mites are more likely to develop resistance to it. If you nuked them with a big dose they'd probably have little chance of surviving or developing resistance. But because the dose is small and only intended to change their behavior, they're probably getting used to it. I don't know what can be done or who should be notified but this will be a big issue in the near future once these treatment failures become the norm and no longer an exception.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

If there is growing resistance to amitraz, and I suspect there is, I do not believe it is due to the use of Apivar strips in our hives. Commerical beekeepers have used an off label amitraz in their hives for many, many years now. Varying and uncontrolled doses and treatment protocols through homemade strips of soaked cloth and other alternative applications has been a clear recipe for eventual resistance to amitraz.


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## JB33 (Jul 27, 2021)

psm1212 said:


> If there is growing resistance to amitraz, and I suspect there is, I do not believe it is due to the use of Apivar strips in our hives. Commerical beekeepers have used an off label amitraz in their hives for many, many years now. Varying and uncontrolled doses and treatment protocols through homemade strips of soaked cloth and other alternative applications has been a clear recipe for eventual resistance to amitraz.


I'd think the Apivar would be the culprit. I've spoken with a few commercial guys and it seems like if anything they are using stronger doses than Apivar. With resistance it seems the bigger problem is under dosing. I think it's clear Apivar is under dosed at this point given the numerous reports of it failing to control mites. The commercial guys using homemade concoctions tend not to have issues with resistance. I'm no expert but doesn't resistance come from 1. low doses that fail to control mites and select for resistance populations, and 2. continuous use without rotation? I think most of the commercial guys are just nuking their hives and the mites have almost no chance to survive it so I don't see that being the issue. That being said, the commercial folks who use only Amitraz for years and years on end, that might be the problem. But that would happen if you used Apivar exclusively. Just my thoughts.

EDIT

I forgot to mention. Yes there are probably some folks using homemade treatments that are under dosing but I'd be willing to bet the majority of the commercial guys are using really strong stuff.


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## j.dickhdequip (Nov 4, 2021)

joebee33 said:


> I think you're probably right. There's probably a fine line where the strips work but also don't contaminate the hive with residues. Apivar seems to work mainly by providing a small but continuous dose killing the mites indirectly by affecting their behavior. If you gave them enough Amitraz they would probably die outright but who knows what that would do to the bees, wax, brood, honey etc... My assumption, after thinking about this for several days now, is that because it's a sublethal dose, the mites are more likely to develop resistance to it. If you nuked them with a big dose they'd probably have little chance of surviving or developing resistance. But because the dose is small and only intended to change their behavior, they're probably getting used to it. I don't know what can be done or who should be notified but this will be a big issue in the near future once these treatment failures become the norm and no longer an exception.


I go about it like taking antibiotic's for an infection. Double Dose, then you will have a handle on it, thus, I think the bees too. When I first started with bees I was 6 yrs old, and the prices then for a 3 lb package of bees were $12.00 from "Spellbee" in GA. Many Commercial beekeepers in Canada were dumping the bees in the fall because wasn't worth their time or effort to bring them through the winter.

Now, in Canada they are $220.00 for a nuc, and about $190.00 for a 1 kg package (NZD, Chile) (2.2 lbs). Now, who can afford to keep bees, without effective mite control, and lets not forget this beetle. I have yet to see on at all, and I don't wish to see them, however, they are in parts of Canada already. In some parts of the US, is this "Killer Hornet" which can power through the bees like nothing. What's Next?

I have currently 6 hives, and I am going to try everything to bring them through the winter, including putting them into a used FedEx Truck that I bought (inexpensively😂) and heat it to 2* below zero. Now, if there are mites that survive my treatments of the bees, GOOD GOD, WHAT'S NEXT!

The only pets I have are the bees, which I totally love, for the simple reason, is that they look after themselves, I don't have to water, let the animal out for the washroom, and I can leave for extended periods of time. Dam good Pets! 

Like everyone in Beesource looking out for one another, which is totally awesome (tip my hat) its a community with all the same problems. Every hive has its problems, traits, and most of any beekeeper getting their hives to florish. These dam mites, beetles, hornets, trachel mites, foul brood, some meds are with the veternarians like for example Terramycin. 

I believe the beekeepers on this site know their bees, and the tools needed to get their hives through the winters. As for me, the 65% Formic Acid now, I hope it doesn't go any lower than this. In Canada, Apistan Strips one year were awesome, then the following year they weren't, so, in the end, the hobbyist, commercial beekeepers, all have allot of money, time, invested in BeeKeeping not only for themselves, but everyone that loves eating honey. Like going to the grocery store, and not knowing where the food comes from, nor the work that goes into it from any farmer or beekeeper.

Enough ranting!


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## j.dickhdequip (Nov 4, 2021)

j.dickhdequip said:


> I go about it like taking antibiotic's for an infection. Double Dose, then you will have a handle on it, thus, I think the bees too. When I first started with bees I was 6 yrs old, and the prices then for a 3 lb package of bees were $12.00 from "Spellbee" in GA. Many Commercial beekeepers in Canada were dumping the bees in the fall because wasn't worth their time or effort to bring them through the winter.
> 
> Now, in Canada they are $220.00 for a nuc, and about $190.00 for a 1 kg package (NZD, Chile) (2.2 lbs). Now, who can afford to keep bees, without effective mite control, and lets not forget this beetle. I have yet to see on at all, and I don't wish to see them, however, they are in parts of Canada already. In some parts of the US, is this "Killer Hornet" which can power through the bees like nothing. What's Next?
> 
> ...


The ranting wasn't for every on, it was suppose to be funny.....sorry if taken the wrong way/


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

Amitraz was used in the US starting around 2000. It was typically purchased in bulk under the brand name Taktic, which was a pesticide to treat ticks on livestock (cows, goats, etc.). Apivar was not approved in the US by the EPA until 2013. I do not know when the product was actually rolled out and widely available, but I suspect that was no earlier than 2014. Most commercial beekeepers continue to use off-label amitraz because of the relative exorbitant expense of Apivar. 

It is estimated that there are only 2.9 million managed honey bee colonies in the United States today. Roughly 2.6 million of those 2.9 million colonies were all in a 3 to 4 county area of California in February of 2021 - primarily by commercial beekeepers. I am just not buying that the average hobby and sideliner beekeeper is the cause of any widespread resistance to amitraz through their use of Apivar strips over the past 7 years.


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## j.dickhdequip (Nov 4, 2021)

Oh I agree with you 100%.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

As usual, the commercial's cause problems for everyone else.

They just buy vats of amitraz and douse their bees with shop towels or whatever other method of delivery used. The dose was presmuably absolutely enormous to develop resistance like that - and then like @psm1212 hinted - all those resistant mites sit in one tiny little place. They breed, and spread around pretty well.

Thankfully, the EPA refuses to approved extended release oxalic acid, which is a good alternative, and the mites cannot get resistant.


...btw, I don't even like almond milk


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## j.dickhdequip (Nov 4, 2021)

With all the pests, and fighting the pests, no wonder bees are slowly declining. My son pointed out this year that he found a bumble bee nest, like they are now too hard to find. Between pesticides, gmo's what else is going to be next on the endangered list.

I don't like almond milk either!!


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

j.dickhdequip said:


> I go about it like taking antibiotic's for an infection. Double Dose, then you will have a handle on it, thus, I think the bees too.


With something that bees can build up resistance to, like Apivar, I don't think a stronger dose would help and that is probably why the manufacturer chose the dosage they did. I have read that it does get absorbed by the wax and in so doing the mites are exposed to low doses constantly. If you use a 'burn em all' approach to applying amitraz you will probably have a higher residual concentration in the brood combs and contribute to creating a resistant mite population as no treatment will kill 100% of the mites. If, however, you use a lower dose that does the job but does not leave enough residual amitraz in the wax to build resistance, you might not create resistant mites.

When using Apvar they do tell us not to use it exclusively, and to use other methods to make sure that many of the resistant mites were killed by the next type of treatment.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

ursa_minor said:


> With something that bees can build up resistance to, like Apivar, I don't think a stronger dose would help and that is probably why the manufacturer chose the dosage they did. I have read that it does get absorbed by the wax and in so doing the mites are exposed to low doses constantly. If you use a 'burn em all' approach to applying amitraz you will probably have a higher residual concentration in the brood combs and contribute to creating a resistant mite population as no treatment will kill 100% of the mites. If, however, you use a lower dose that does the job but does not leave enough residual amitraz in the wax to build resistance, you might not create resistant mites.
> 
> When using Apvar they do tell us not to use it exclusively, and to use other methods to make sure that many of the resistant mites were killed by the next type of treatment.


Yes, apivar/amitraz does contaminate wax comb. 

*2,4-DMA, DMF, and DMPF*, or something horrible sounding like that.









Chronic toxicity of amitraz, coumaphos and fluvalinate to Apis mellifera L. larvae reared in vitro - Scientific Reports


The effects of chronic exposure to common acaricides on Apis mellifera survival, developmental rate and larval weight were tested in the laboratory. Larvae were reared in vitro and fed a diet containing amitraz: 1.5, 11, 25 and 46 mg/L; coumaphos: 1.8, 6, 8 and 25 mg/L; or fluvalinate: 0.1, 1...




www.nature.com


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Amitraz Marker Residues in Honey from Honeybee Colonies Treated with Apiwarol


.


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## 3BeeKeepers (Aug 20, 2004)

Kuro said:


> 3.3% sounds about right, considering tick collars for dogs (effective for 3 months) contain 9% amitraz.


Anything we as beekeepers do to protect our bees always end up in problems down the road. Like antibiotics


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## Kuro (Jun 18, 2015)

I found one US research paper about Amitraz resistance of varroa mites. I believe Honey Bee Health Coalition and USDA are currently collaborating on follow-up studies.

Various levels of Amitraz resistance were found in commercial apiaries which had a >3-year history of Amitraz use. Whether they used Apivar strips (=3.33% Amitraz in plastic polymer) or off-label Amitraz is not known. The apiaries were located in Louisiana, New York, and South Dakota, and varroa mites were collected in 2019.

When mites were exposed to various concentrations of Amitraz in test tubes, LC50s (concentrations of Amitraz required to kill 50% mites) were higher with mites from the commercial apiaries, compared with the control (mites collected from the USDA apiary where Amitraz was never used). Apiary B was the worst, showing 22.5 fold higher LC50 (Table 1, the rightmost column).

Next, ~300 bees were collected in a container with an Apivar strip (Fig.1), and # of mites dropped during 3hr incubation period was counted. # of surviving mites was also counted after washing bees with soapy water, in order to calculate the total # of mites. Fig.3 shows Apivar efficacy (% killed/total) in different apiaries. The worst one, Apiary B showed average 68% efficacy, ranging from 28% to 97% among colonies.

The paper does not say much about relationships between Apivar efficacy and treatment failure, except that

“This apiary (Apiary B) was experiencing a Varroa control failure because of high Varroa infestation levels (i.e. 11.45 Varroa/100 bees) during an active Amitraz treatment.”

So, Amitraz resistance had already emerged in some US apiaries by 2019. I hope my varroas will still be susceptible next year……
Detection of amitraz resistance and reduced treatment efficacy in the Varroa Mite, Varroa destructor, within commercial beekeeping operations


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Leave it to some bad apple commercial beekeepers to contaminate the nations supply of wax AND make ineffective one of our best and expensive treatments.

Sounds to me like this practice is quite widespread amongst commercials.

We know of a few youtuber commerical beekeepers who don't do this illegal amitraz treatment - but for ever 1 of them, there's 10 who don't have a youtube channel, but buy Amitraz/bovitraz/ Taktic by the vat apply huge doses to their bees every year.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

j.dickhdequip said:


> ...I saw them, but basically I thought like other things like to hibernate with the bees, and the bees would get rid of them. However, going into the winter like any other year, losses are expected with this many hives, normally prior to the mites, I would loose 1 - 15 normally pending the strength. With this mites unchecked at the time when I went into the winter like any other winter prior, by spring I lost 100% of the hives.


That's gut-wrenching even with 3-4 hives. I can't imagine losing 300. That would put anyone off beekeeping. You must be tenacious as all-get-out.


psm1212 said:


> If there is growing resistance to amitraz, and I suspect there is, I do not believe it is due to the use of Apivar strips in our hives. Commerical beekeepers have used an off label amitraz in their hives for many, many years now. Varying and uncontrolled doses and treatment protocols through homemade strips of soaked cloth and other alternative applications has been a clear recipe for eventual resistance to amitraz.


I think there's a certain amount of distrust of something we can't see. If I take a chemical from a bag and it says "lab grade 99.96% pure" then I have some confidence in it, if it's from a reputable source. But there are a lot of variables with these and immediate excuses of why they didn't work. New beeks tend to blame themselves if there is a lunar eclipse, and there are "pat" immediate answers for why strips weren't effective which start out like, "You must have used out-of-date, or you opened the package more than 45 minutes too early, and on a Tues." - You're not wrong that a huge petri-dish exists in CA that ends up in back in GA and FL, then packages go out to everywhere from there. Even if pollinators are not in the package biz, billions of bees are moved to the same area to take advantage of early season warm temps. Like everything in a global economy, pests get moved around. That said, a lot of research is funded due to the effect bees have on the agriculture industry, and most of the measurable metrics deal with commercial beeks. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.


joebee33 said:


> I forgot to mention. Yes there are probably some folks using homemade treatments that are under dosing but I'd be willing to bet the majority of the commercial guys are using really strong stuff.


I can't imagine the amount of effort it takes to keep a few thousand hives treated. Come to think of it, just having that many to tend boggles my brain. Seems like the job might turn into a punishment after a while. To your point, I think most farmers are going to do what works, otherwise they're not farmers for long. What that is currently I don't know. Other than a few YouTubers, I rarely meet anyone with over 50-100 hives, and most with 1-5. My wife met a couple today that just moved 8-10 miles from us. They run 850 in CA for pollination. I'll be interested in hearing their perspectives/methods.


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## 3BeeKeepers (Aug 20, 2004)

I agree with you and after everything has been exhausted in the line of meds and control of mites Beatles and who knows what else comes about the bees are going to suffer the most. Sooner or later pollination will be done with a q-tip as done in some areas in China. 
In parts of Germany especially in Bavaria is done with spraying the fruit trees due to the lack of bees. If nothing is done and then this is what we have to look forward to. Sad but true.


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