# Is Warre legal?



## sqkcrk

Contact your VA State Apiculturalist and ask for a copy of the law. I don't know if I still have mine from when I lived in VA last, 1984. My memory is that all frames must be removable so the hive parts can be inspected. Inspectable. That's the crucial word.

When we built an 18th Century reproduction of a hive for use and display in an apiary on the Governors Palace Green at Colonial Williamsburg, Wmsbg,Va, we had to modify the interior so frames could be used to meet State Requirements.

All of that said, forgiveness is easier to get than permission.


----------



## Zonker

I just checked North Carolina and I believe (though I'm not an attorney) that 02 NCAC 10B .0316 which governed hive types has been repealed and replaced by 02 NCAC 09L which doesn't even mention hive types, so ... Warre's with fixed bars are legal in NC.


----------



## Zonker

Well dam! You are right. I just checked again. Three years ago they plugged the loop hole. "§ 3.2-4403. Duties of beekeepers. - Beekeepers shall: 1. Provide movable frames with combs or foundation in all hives used by them to contain bees"

I think I was legal for awhile. Its good to know that the government is efficiently creating more rules. Would hate to run out of regulations to comply with. 

of course the regs don't define moveable. I can move my frames, it just takes a pry bar or a saw.


----------



## sqkcrk

"movable" or "removable"?


----------



## David LaFerney

The letter of our state law reuires "modern" (post Roman?) Hives with removable frames, but the state inspector sez as long as he can inspect brood it's fine. So in TN it's open to interpretation. - probably like that all over. Be nice to your inspector, and keep your combs running straight.


----------



## Bush_84

Warre hives are legal everywhere no matter what the wording of the law is. Warre hives are easily modifiable. You can run with just plain top bars and let the bees do what they like. You could use top bars with comb guides. You can make half frames with or without comb guides. Heck check out the link.

http://www.thewarrestore.com/apps/webstore/products/show/1947015

You can even use full frames if you'd like. If you choose to use a Warre that has been unmodified then you will have to check the law. However if the law in your states requires movable frames then you just need to modify your style a bit. You would likely be able to make half frames and still be well within the law.


----------



## Rick 1456

Maryland says, "removeable frame for inspection." There you go.


----------



## Bush_84

Again see my above post for definitive argument against what you said. You can easily run removable frames in a Warre if you wish.


----------



## Rick 1456

I think I was agreeing with you


----------



## sqkcrk

Bush_84 said:


> Again see my above post for definitive argument against what you said. You can easily run removable frames in a Warre if you wish.


But you can't roller skate in a buffalo herd.


----------



## Michael Bush

If you don't nail down the top bars (which is typical in a warre') and you inspect often enough to have the connections manageable, it should meet the legal requirement of "movable comb" which in my experience is how all 50 states are interpreting their laws, even if they specify (as I believe Florida does) "Langstroth" in their law. The purpose is to be able to inspect for AFB.


----------



## sqkcrk

That is the reason for the Law. For sure.


----------



## forgeblast

This year I am switching all my warre top bars to half frame bars. When I rotate out my honey boxes this year Ill just fix the old ones.


----------



## Zonker

I've been re-thinking. Mine are all nailed down. I'm thinking adding plugs between the bars so that they will stay in place but be removable. I don't want to get involved in building frames or doing a bunch of frame by frame inspections. But I don't need a legal hassle the first time a neighbor gets stung.


----------



## forgeblast

Do you have an air powered brad nailer? It will hold the bars in place but you can just pull them out if you need to take a bar out. I use the smallest brads to just grip the bar.


----------



## Zonker

I used the bards left over from the (expensive) frames for my lang. They are pretty small but I'm not sure if that would qualify for removable. I wish that the government would just butt out.


----------



## sqkcrk

Zonker said:


> I wish that the government would just butt out.


What sort of problems w/ government have you had?

If you knew your neighbors hive have AFB and everything you can do on your own to have your neighbor address this problem, wouldn't you want government to enforce quarantine and abatement orders to destroy AFB?

I don't think anyone really cares what you keep your bees in until it comes time for an Inspector to inspect them.


----------



## Zonker

Well sure I'd want something done if it was something effective, but AFB spread all over anyway so it doesn't seem like what is done works. and maybe letting the decease wipe out the weaker bees might be a better solution. and the inspector can't inspect the local wild bees. and maybe its our approach to bee keeping that has lead to weak deceased bees so changing that approach is more important than my own bees. and maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about but things are going poorly for the bees so maybe neither does the government.

but as you point out I would be screaming for government assistance the first time I thought I needed it just like everyone else.


----------



## sqkcrk

Zonker said:


> Well sure I'd want something done if it was something effective, but AFB spread all over anyway so it doesn't seem like what is done works. and maybe letting the decease wipe out the weaker bees might be a better solution. and the inspector can't inspect the local wild bees. and maybe its our approach to bee keeping that has lead to weak deceased bees so changing that approach is more important than my own bees. and maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about but things are going poorly for the bees so maybe neither does the government.


Removeable and inspectable frames of comb are not the cause of AFB. 

AFB is not "spread all over anyway". 

Education, prevention, and Inspection have taken us froma time, in the early 20th century, when AFB occurances were epidemic amongst the beekeeping industry which resulted in Modern Bee Laws and Apiary Inspection Services.

Our bees are not weak. Any more than someone who succumbs to a new virus, a new flu, is weak.

"local wild bees" are not a resevoir of AFB. When a bee tree colony gets AFB and dies, wax moth eats up the infected comb.

"maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about" At least you are able to recognize your condition. Keep learning and asking. Knowledge and experience is all around you.


----------



## Michael Bush

It is a "post hoc ergo proctor hoc" (after this therefore because this) argument if you claim it as fact, but AFB really became a problem when they got removable comb, so it's not an unreasonable theory.


----------



## sqkcrk

Granted that is the way it seems to appear to have happened, but, I wonder if it would not have been so anyway because of the boom in colonies per apairy and revolutions in transportation? Afterall, didn't AFB blossom from the proximity of large numbers of hives? Granted we had numbers of hives in apiaries before, but these were log gums and skeps whose usual method of harvest was to destroy the hive or at least the honeycomb, which was rendered to use the honey and the wax.

Which makes me wonder when wax became a by product of honey production rather than the main product? In the early 1700s, in Virginia, wax was listed as a "Colonial Product" in the Governors Report. Whereas no mention of honey. Which may indicate something. It says to me that honey was not a commodity in Colonial Virginia and wax was.


----------



## sqkcrk

Michael Bush said:


> but AFB really became a problem when they got removable comb,


Are you suggesting cause and effect? The AFB epidemic came decades after the advent of removable frames. Dr. Shimanuki writes in "Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases" that the advent of movable frames probably introduced a major means of transmission." and that "Concern about American Foulbrood disease in the United states resulted in the establishment of today's apiary inspection programs."

Should we, as a peoples not as an industry, return to the use of nonmovable frames or comb w/in a mostly movable frame society? Is that the socialy respoinsible thing to do, considering AFB's presence?

How do Warre Hive beekeepers deal w/ AFB? How is it detected? By smell? Since it appears as though combs are not removed for visual inspection.

How are new colonies made? How does one "split" or "nuc" a Warre Hive?


----------



## forgeblast

It says to me that honey was not a commodity in Colonial Virginia and wax was. 

I am wondering if wax was a higher commodity due to everyone needing candles. The honey would have been kept for its sugar content.


----------



## sqkcrk

That was my first assumption or wonder too. Then I saw that it was noted as an exported item. Exported to Madera. Where, I suspect, it was used in the wine industry, which Madera was so well known for, in some capacity.

Beeswax was at the bottom of the list of Gross Colonial Product (read Gross National Product equivalent) Lumber, Tobacco, Coal, and something else I don't recall being the other 4 items reported. Iron Ore maybe.


----------



## forgeblast

Do you have a book or link that lists the products, I would be interested in reading what we were shipping. I would think that raw cotton, would have been big, since they did not allow mills for processing to be built here.


----------



## sqkcrk

Cotton didn't become big until the 1800s, I believe.

I did my research when I worked at Colonial Williamsburg back in 1979 to 1984. I have my notes and a bee talk somewhere, but am mostly going from memory. I'm sorry to say I can't suggest an information source. Maybe if you could find a really good history book on the colonial history of the Virginia Colony, but I don't know one. Maybe contact Colonial Williamsburg's Reasearch Dept.? They should be glad to answer questions.


----------



## Bush_84

sqkcrk said:


> Are you suggesting cause and effect? The AFB epidemic came decades after the advent of removable frames. Dr. Shimanuki writes in "Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases" that the advent of movable frames probably introduced a major means of transmission." and that "Concern about American Foulbrood disease in the United states resulted in the establishment of today's apiary inspection programs."
> 
> Should we, as a peoples not as an industry, return to the use of nonmovable frames or comb w/in a mostly movable frame society? Is that the socialy respoinsible thing to do, considering AFB's presence?
> 
> How do Warre Hive beekeepers deal w/ AFB? How is it detected? By smell? Since it appears as though combs are not removed for visual inspection.
> 
> How are new colonies made? How does one "split" or "nuc" a Warre Hive?


I have removed comb in a Warre with standard top bars and I'm a noob. As long as you use good comb guides the bees will tend to create comb that you can remove with care, but that isn't to say that something as basic as smell should be ignored either. You can also inspect brood in the way that skeps were inspected by pushing aside combs to inspect. If there is concern that something is not right then you could always cut a sample. Then there is also the option of altering the top bars in some fashion (half frames or full frames). Then you could easily remove comb. Here are some links of people who are using these frames.

http://warre.biobees.com/denis.htm

http://milkwood.net/2010/11/16/bringing-home-the-bees/

I am personally going to use a mix of half frames and top bars this year to see what I prefer. 

Splitting and finding the queen is possible in Warre hives. Finding the queen is done with an excluder, assuming you don't have removable frames. Splitting is typically done by the box. Warre outlines a few different methods in his book, but some are outlined in the link below.

http://warre.biobees.com/splits.htm

Most of the techniques are basically smoking the bees down into the lower boxes, removing the top box (must be brood in box) and putting it in the original location. You take the boxes with the queen and move them to a different location. The queen will continue to lay. The foragers will return to the hive without the queen in the original location. You can then let the bees make their own queen, give them a queen cell (if available), or install a queen. Warre also outlines ways to split using two colonies, which reduces the impact on the mother colonies. 

I would say that running Warre nucs is possible. I know that there are a few commercial Warre apiaries in France and they breed their own queens. It seems that they use frames for such practices, but typically stick with top bars for their production colonies from what I recall. But if you want to make nucs a single box would probably suffice. If you want to run it like a Lang nuc then you will have to modify the top bars in some fashion as most of those practices revolve around easily removable frames, but then again something as simple as half frames might do the trick. 

I hope this answers your questions.


----------



## sqkcrk

Thanks.


----------



## Zonker

I'm not claiming that AFB was caused by or even related to removable frames, just that regulation seems to be ineffective. More of a desperate gesture than an actual solution. I guess I think that insects adapt very rapidly and that lots of bee hives allowed to live and die on their own might be as effective a treatment as anything we have tried so far.

As far as my colonies I don't feed or medicate. I split strong hives and ignore dying hives to hopefully come up with decease resistant stock.


----------



## Bush_84

Well you could argue that the live and let die method would work to encourage tolerance to Varroa and tracheal mites, but this line of thinking does not apply to AFB. I believe the countries with the lowest incidence of AFB are the countries that across the board burn everything at the first sign of AFB. They do not mess with saving the bees/equipment. I want to say Sweden does this and has an extremely low incidence of AFB, but somebody should correct me if that's incorrect.


----------



## Solomon Parker

I'd like to see some more explanation of keeping 'deceased' bees. It would sure eliminate worries about disease.


----------



## sqkcrk

Zonker said:


> I'm not claiming that AFB was caused by or even related to removable frames, just that regulation seems to be ineffective. More of a desperate gesture than an actual solution. I guess I think that insects adapt very rapidly and that lots of bee hives allowed to live and die on their own might be as effective a treatment as anything we have tried so far.
> 
> As far as my colonies I don't feed or medicate. I split strong hives and ignore dying hives to hopefully come up with decease resistant stock.


How effective would reulation have to be to be effective above wht you see as ineffective? As far as AFB is concerned, just about the only disease which is regulated, percentages of hives w/ AFB are well below 5% in States w/ robust inspection services.

But, maybe you are refering to other pests and diseases? Varroa have killed more colonies than AFB ever has in all recorded history, yet you can have as many as you want w/out fear from Inspectors. The same w/ Nosema and viruses. But, what can those who regulate do? Nothing more than they are already doing, except perhaps Teaching beekeepers on how to deal w/ these pests and diseases.

I hope you do more than ignore dying colonies. They are the ones which may well have AFB. Something you would want to know before your strong colonies rob out the dead hives.


----------



## sqkcrk

Solomon Parker said:


> I'd like to see some more explanation of keeping 'deceased' bees. It would sure eliminate worries about disease.


Which Post was that in? You aren't taking my job, are you?


----------



## Zonker

I guess there are certainly examples of regulation/inspection working (i.e. polio, smallpox, hoof and mouth disease) so maybe inspections are good idea, but I still wish Warre's were legal


----------



## sqkcrk

They aren't illegal, are they?


----------



## Michael Bush

>Are you suggesting cause and effect? The AFB epidemic came decades after the advent of removable frames.

I am suggesting that possibility, yes. Am I saying it is? No. But moving frames between hives is much more likely to spread AFB than anything else.

> Dr. Shimanuki writes in "Honey Bee Pests, Predators, & Diseases" that the advent of movable frames probably introduced a major means of transmission."

Exactly.

>Should we, as a peoples not as an industry, return to the use of nonmovable frames or comb w/in a mostly movable frame society? Is that the socialy respoinsible thing to do, considering AFB's presence?

I'm not suggesting that.


----------



## Zonker

Yeah it looks like fixed bars like Warre described in his books are illegal. I'm going to try to figure out some sort of simple peg system to comply with the law, though I'm still going to deal with the bees on a (hands off) box basis.


----------



## forgeblast

hehe you could always velcro them in place, it would hold them and yet you could still take them out.


----------



## sqkcrk

Zonker said:


> I'm still going to deal with the bees on a (hands off) box basis.


Then why spend the money on a Warre Hive? Just buy a Langstroth Deep Box, a bottom board, an inner cover and a cover? If you are just going to be a behaver.

BeWarre.


----------



## Bush_84

Zonker said:


> Yeah it looks like fixed bars like Warre described in his books are illegal. I'm going to try to figure out some sort of simple peg system to comply with the law, though I'm still going to deal with the bees on a (hands off) box basis.


I have heard of some that cut the head off the nail. That way the bar car slip in and out of the nail.


----------



## forgeblast

if you look here this is the size i use, you can see they have no head, and the bar can slip easy
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2005178/4142/58-Brads-21-Gauge-5000.aspx


----------



## Zonker

I watched the Heathland Traditional German Bee keeping videos (which were assume) and noticed that they have a specific tool to inspect in skeps. Its sort of a flat hooked blade on the end of a long probe. They just inserted the knife a removed a square of the comb. I wonder if having the tool would buy any forgiveness if the apiarist showed up.


----------



## HiveAtYourHome

Warre style hives *can* be legal throughout USA.
Warre style hives are legal in the first 10 states I checked regulations for (northeast), been told numerous times legal everywhere in USA. That is it can be legal, Don't nail in a way that you can't get top bar frame to move. Then again its the same things that would make a Langstroth illegal (don't nail frames in permanently, comb management,) although your Warre may draw more attention for inspection, but what state is tracking down hobby beekeepers today? The inspector I knew well doesn't inspect as his state dropped bee inspectors entirely.

Its the "inspectable comb" or the "inspectable frame" (top bars count legally as frames, so do half enclosed and fully enclosed frames) that is the type needed. Some reference the type, most all reference the action of inspection. So no gum, skep, barbecue grill is ever allowed but what is important is the management as all types of hives can become illegal if non-inspectable.

Management of a Warre style hive, Langstroth, hTBH really determines the whether you are OK are not. Some states just say they must be inspectable, a few reference if they are found not to be you have time X to transfer the hive to an inspectable state/other hive body.

So absolutely CAN be legal. Its the CAN part.


----------



## Michael Bush

>Then again its the same things that would make a Langstroth illegal

Yes but the definition of a Langstroth would be that they are not nailed down, and the definition of a Warre' by Warre, is that they are... but I agree. Make that one minor adjustment and they are.


----------



## greengecko

Nailed down? Not actually. Warré wrote, "Once the top-bars are thus in place they are fixed in the rebate with a small headless pin such as a glazier's pin."









The small headless pin maintains the top-bar spacing. The top-bars of a Warré hive can be easily lifted for inspection.


----------



## sqkcrk

So they are used like a frame spacer? Or are they under the end of the top bar?


----------



## greengecko

sqkcrk said:


> So they are used like a frame spacer? Or are they under the end of the top bar?


They are used as a spacer. They are not used to "nail down" or otherwise permanently attach the top-bar.


----------



## sqkcrk

I got the not nailed down thing. Thanks. I just thought, perhaps, the headless brad was under the end of the top bar so the frames wouldn't shift. Thank you for clearing that up for me and explaining that they are used as spacers. Makes sense. Makes them easily removed and inspectable which puts Warres inside the Law. Which answers the Thread Title question.


----------



## HiveAtYourHome

The title question does beg what are we discussing is legal, the Warre as a total system, exact design *and *management style, or just the design or a design close to it. This isn't so confusing when people say Langstroth as they usually don't mean his management; and maybe that is why its usually tricksome when people are comparing the two, its further than apples and oranges, its a cider producing facility and an orange slice comparison.

Hence one deviation in design (the nail thing, even if it wasn't a deviation) is discussed as whether its still Warre, (that and Warre devotes strict adherence,) while on the other hand - when you say Langstroth, you usually have Hoffman self spacing frames (~50 years after Langstroth's patent and book) or even plastic frames, my inner cover and top aren't like his, my screened bottom isn't like his, and if you throw in a frame feeder, beetle trap or other gadget its not like his, the only thing my hive that is like I see in his patent and two books is the inner dimensions of a box, but I've yet to have anyone claim my Langstroth hives aren't Langstroths, while I've given up calling my Warresque/modified Warres as Warres as that gets jumped over as not really Warre, so they are just my alternative vertical box hives with topbar frames. I haven't even mentioned management, while their is a lot of great wisdom in _The Hive and the Honey-Bee_ and_ Langstroth on the Honey Bee_, strict adherence to his guidance is not expected when talking Langstroth where it seems most often to be for Warre and _Beekeeping For All_.

I assumed the original question is "does the *design* of a Warre hive meet legal requirements," and people have put forth: *yes the Warre design is legal*.

However I usually assume the word Warre used by itself indicates the complete paired Warre management and Warre design as that is how most have responded to me when I just use the word Warre with no caveats, I also assume that design is always less important then management it seems both in law and bees.

hmm to muddy an already answered question...


----------

