# OMG...I did it!



## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Well I got up very early and grafted 2 bars before going off to work this morning.

I did 2 bars as will be happy to get any QC from my first effort.

My daughter is the keen one on raising Queens but she is stupid busy so...I decided to try.

Interesting how the construct the brood cell. There seems to a very thin cellophane like lining. I found if you tug on that the cell and all its contents cone out...and not in a tidy enough fashion to use. Initially I shortened the wall height. That was a bit of a pain so in the end I grafted from the cells as they were.

Fingers crossed that I get a Queen.

Thanks for all those that post their wisdom and support to the forum. It helps more than you will ever know.


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## Nivtup (Mar 17, 2014)

Good Luck!


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## AL from Georgia (Jul 14, 2014)

Good luck with your grafting, keep us posted on the results.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Lift the cell bar(s) tomorrow evening, and take a photo of them. Later, when you are pondering what you did right, and what you did wrong, you'll refer back to that photo many times, and look for all sorts of subtle details to try figure out how to do better next time.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

will do...the cell phone will have to do. I hope I get at least one cell...but who knows.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If you grafted 30 of them then at least half 12-15 should take.
I try not to flip the larvae when placing them into the cell cups.
Did you flip any?


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Welcome to the Queen Rearing Club, Janne! We're all very proud of your progress.

FWIW, my first QC frame of the year almost never goes well, but the rest are usually fine. Like Grozzie said, take a peek 48 hours later, and re-graft if its a doughnut hole. 

Because I almost always screw up my first batch, I usually make up a HUGE Cell Builder and add 2 or 3 QC frames into it. I'll usually get 40 to 80, but I think my record was 118.

I'm hoping for a better mating % this year - I think the missing element was NOT having moved my nuc's 10 miles away, so now I'm building them right on the trailer, planting the cells in the evening, closing them up with screen tops, and going to the DCA over in Santa Barbara to let them mate.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

beepro said:


> I try not to flip the larvae when placing them into the cell cups.


Well yeah, if you do they drown


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You so sure?
I thought they just flip back to theie normal side again.
Maybe the nurse bees don't feed them after they cannot see their mouth.
Or is it that everything is uniform that no matter if you flip them or not.
Humm, drowning larvae will be removed by the bees soon. I need to go check on my
grafts now. Grafting any queens this season, Moon?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

The larvae and adult bee breathe through holes on the sides of their neck (thoracic spiracles). The larvae is on its side, and is only breathing through the set facing up. If you flip the larvae they breath brood food and die.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I don't think I flipped any and dip aim at getting them off in the middle. I soon realized I did better by letting them dangle off the graft tool.

They were very tiny...by my figuring less than 12 hours old as 12 hours prior I could see no larvae. Not all had Royal jelly. Those that had a drop that covered about 1/4 of the bottom of the cell. I took some with and some without the puddle...mostly with the puddle.. But the puddles were so small there was no obvious puddle in the grafted cells.

I peeked in very quickly this morning. Lots of bees covering stuff and one sucker stung me below the eye...so I did not stick around for long. I was heading out for work so had no bee clothes on.

I did notice that not all cups were equal. A few had 1/4 rim of wax and others only about 1/8 inch rim. Some seemed to have no rim yet had bees on them.

Do they all shift to working on the more advanced cells?

I know not all cells...probably very few cells in reality..will be completed. Do I graft another bar and stick on the cell bar frame ? Will they even consider late commers? If so do I graft from older larvae in the original donor comb?

Hopefully someone will know as I could try tomorrow before work.

I won't be able to check again until next Friday as am taking one of our dogs down to Corvalis Oregon to get a pacemaker next week. Fingers crossed all goes well for the old guy


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

beepro said:


> Grafting any queens this season, Moon?


Maybe one or two... We keep getting cold snaps here but I saw drone comb last weekend when I went out. I'll probably set up a couple of cell builders this weekend, maybe graft next weekend. That means they should be hatching around the second weekend in May. I should have my ii equipment setup by then so timing wise as long as everything goes according to plan (because it always does ), I'll be catching drones on the 15th and inseminating on the 17th.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

This is all going to be anecdotal advice so take it with many, many grains of salt.

>Do they all shift to working on the more advanced cells?

From what I've seen they don't shift to working on the more advanced cells, they work on the cells with viable larvae in them as long as there are sufficient nurse bees. The nurse bees don't prioritize which one needs attention first, they just start filling the potential queen cells with RJ that have larvae in them that turn into queens. I have only ever used one method of queen rearing and this might be based off of how I rear queens that I've observed this. Definitely not conclusive.

>I did notice that not all cups were equal. A few had 1/4 rim of wax and others only about 1/8 inch rim. Some seemed to have no rim yet had bees on them.

If you use the smoke colored or translucent colored looking JZBZ cups you should be able to see which ones the bees are filling with RJ and which ones are being neglected. I've had QC cups get partially drawn out before with no RJ in them. If there's no Jelly, there's no future queen.

>I know not all cells...probably very few cells in reality..will be completed. Do I graft another bar and stick on the cell bar frame ? Will they even consider late commers? If so do I graft from older larvae in the original donor comb?

You can definitely re-graft the ones they are not working on. Lots of prominent beesource members do this, lots of commercial queen rearers do this and all seem to advocate for doing this exact thing. I never have so I can't speak to successes or failures, I simply don't have the time to go out and check everything every day and do re-grafts. I time everything to land on the weekends so I get a day of beekeeping and a day with the misses. As far as whether or not they'll consider late comers they most definitely will. Again, this is how I rear queens, but as long as I have the cell builder established and stocked with young nurse bees I can drop a frame of 45 grafts in every 5-7 days and they will continue to work on them until they have a laying queen in the hive.

Hope this helps! Good Luck!


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks..not certain my cell builder is congested as much as it should be. Looks like lots of bees but who knows.
Do you use a QR cell finisher or a Queenless one?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

"I peeked in very quickly this morning. Lots of bees covering stuff and one sucker stung me below the eye...so I did not stick around for long. I was heading out for work so had no bee clothes on."


You are very lucky this time. Years ago on BS someone posted a picture of a white eye that got stung by the bee. That poor man was blind after that
incident. I have a Halloween witch hat made out of fine mesh net around it. Its fine mesh net will entangle the bees when they try to get inside.
This is my 'quick' inspection veil that I use when in a hurry or when I'm too lazy to put on the bee suit. The next time you are in a hurry for a quick inspection don't forget about the
poor keeper's white eye. A crowded nuc hive will make the guard bees over night. And especially when they are queen less which make them more edgy and willing to defend
their hive. I always have my veil close by the hives to do a fast inspection. Even on a nice sunny day they will bite and sting on my shirt when they are angry. It is very important
to protect yourself when around the hives because defending their home is what they do naturally.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

WBVC said:


> Thanks..not certain my cell builder is congested as much as it should be. Looks like lots of bees but who knows.
> Do you use a QR cell finisher or a Queenless one?


I have never used anything but a queenless one. Once I have my CB set up I'll just continue to add frames of capped brood so I have young nurse bees in there raising queens until I finish rearing.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks for the input. I think I learned a good lesson about self protection It tempting not to use a veil as once vision is deteriorating the fine screen mesh really messes with your ability to see things well.

I did pull out the larvae donor frame again and took a few more larvae that I put onto a cell bar that I slipped into another slot on the graft frame.

It was interesting as they were pulling QC on the graft frame even though QC on other frames in that donor hive had hatched and some other capped QC had been torn down.

I also took a frame from that hive that had maturely capped QC and put them and a frame with honey and nectar into a 2 frame mating nuc. I did not see a virgin but with so many bees and my inexperience I am not surprised...one may, or may not, have been on the frames I moved. I guess time will tell and the donor hive seems to have resources to make more QC if they need to.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

OK..this is an update. Not the greatest result...but could have been worse.

Of the first 2 bars I did about half were drawn. One was filled with royal jelly and a big fat larvae and drawn into a long tube but never closed. A couple looked like long tubes with nothing inside but open at the tip...no lid seen.

One did have an opening and a lid!! I transferred on day 10 in the afternoon. I put 10 into 2 frame mating nucs...one hatched out as I was pushing it in. 

I had regrafted onto a lower bar 2 days after the first graft. Again about were drawn and capped...but they looked more like large raisens than a peanut. Also most of them had been chewed out at the side. I opened one that looked so small I couldn't imagine it had a Queen and sadly there she was..a reasonable size for the tiny QC but her abdomen was still very pale and fragile 

So in the end I placed 11 cells. One I don't think has a chance but I had a slot for it so put it in.

One mating nuc slot has no QC ...do I just leave them until the next round or should I pull up the divider and combine with the adjacent slot?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Did you take any cell pics?
Looks like some small queen cells with not much Rj in them.
You need at least some peanuts not raisins cells because these will give
you good well fed queen. My experience with the raisin size cells was that the queen got
superceded sooner, not a good layer and does not overwinter well. Meaning a fail queen sooner. 
There is a study about the amount of Rj fed and her ovaries development. And the subsequent effects on her laying ability as well as the
quality of her eggs. I will not keep any cell that is not peanut size anymore. This is my standard only, of course. Without the extra Rj to feed her after she is capped, it will not make a good queen. Three years both in the Spring and late summer so far playing with them. Each year improve a bit on my process and experiences.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I did not take photos
It is interesting in the one that was abandoned before capping was really full of royal jelly with a long Queen cell cone and a plump white larva on the royal jelly.

This was my first attempt...I think the cell builder/ finisher is a big deal and also think the mating nucs, and weather, will be important.

I was really surprised by how early some of them emerged yet I only found one Queen running about above the Queen excluder. There were eggs and larvae below the excluder as well but hope the original Queen remains where she should be.I will check on the frames above the queen excluder in a couple of weeks and see if there are any eggs from a renegade virgin Queen.
I will likely start more grafts in about 2 weeks. Practice and experience along with guidance from bee source will help me learn.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Definitely take some pics for your record and learning to compare one batch of cells to another. This is how I learn
the fastest to improve on my operation. The different queen rearing related posts on bee source definitely help me to learn. 
I have never read a bee book (the local library only has 3 books) nor a queen rearing one before. 
I learn everything here on the different queen rearing methods at the same time to improve on my process as well.
The long queen cell was from the larva that detached itself from the original Rj so the bees tried to save it by extending the Rj column. 
Each time it dropped further down. This kind of cell is not good to keep either but is good if you want to harvest the Rj from. 
Also when you use the excluder there is a chance the raisin size queen got into the queen right hive to kill her. 
The tiny queen like the size of a small fly can slip through the excluder. When it does it is thinking I am the new queen now. 
This type of queen is very aggressive being half worker/half queen itself. But proved to be no use for laying eggs. 
What I do is to remove the original queen and frame temporarily into another nuc hive. After these cells hatched I will put the queen and the
frame back to the original hive. Actually, with 3 frames of bees and the open larvae/eggs the original queen is safe. 
If you want you can also move 3 frames of bees to another nuc and put the graft capped cells and bar into it. 
They will keep these cells warm until they hatch. This will prevent any raisin like queen to kill off the original queen should it slip by the excluder. 
Be flexible is the key when there are limited resources to use.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Hmmm...iI guess I could try using my incubator and once capped put them in roller cages in the incubator...that if the bees by then are only needed to keep them warm. Or I could simply leave the board in so the graft portion of the hive is physically separate from the rest of the hive.

Only thing is I believe someone said they thought a Queenlees starter and Queen right finisher produced the best Queens. But perhaps the Queenright finisher was just referring from after the cells are started to when they are capped.

If that is the case I start then queenless, then take out the board but leave in the excluder until they are capped and then replace the board or put them in the incubator.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

Good luck with those queens! I do mine the lazy way. I split a box and wait for the bees to make one ( or 10 ).
Re: getting stung in the eye. 4 years ago I took one on my eyeball changing feeders. It swelled up til it was blind past 4 inches. No focus at all .Strangely I had perfect vision up to 4" from my face. It looked like I had a small plum in my eye socket. Thankfully all symptoms subsided but they did last a full week. Wear a veil . I don't change feeders without one now. I have also heard of it leading to permanent vision loss.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Just went out and changed most of the feeders to jars with a single hole. Four of them have the multi holed feeding jars as only had 12 extra jars

It is cold and very rainy here today. Hope it lets up in a few days so any Queens that emerge can try the mating game.

I checked my dud Queen cells...seven had well developed Queens, with a hole chewed in the side and the immature Queens were very dead. Must have been the Queen that emerged before or on day 10. I saw her open cell with the hinged door. Then I saw her running about the capped Queen cells. Makes me wonder if QC would best be moved right after capping.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Definitely put them in an incubator so that you can choose the
best queen to nuc them after they're hatched. I don't have an incubator now. So I am using the skills that I developed over the years on this process. The queen rearing calendar will help you much too at http://www.thebeeyard.org/queen-rearing-calendar/
You must take them out on the 10th day after the graft otherwise the early emerged virgin will tore out the other cells. This was a lesson learned already on my first year of queen rearing. Now I will make up their mating nucs earlier so that all the fields bees and nurse bees know what they are going to do next. Yes, whatever you do you have to separate the cells from each others before 1 hatch. Imagine 50-60 or more cells loss if only 1 virgin emerged early for the commercial operation. I learned early on to never put all my eggs in one basket. It is very dangerous!
The newly emerged virgins have one uphill battle when the mating weather does not cooperate. Their mating flight window is only 2 weeks or so. I will wait for the local weather to be warmer for them to fly before doing my graft.
According to the queen rearing calendar I should move the cells to their mating nucs tomorrow. But I am busy now with work so I will put them inside the small plastic jzbz queen introduction cages first to buy some time. Tomorrow they should all hatch.


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