# Honey in the Nicot Cage - is this normal???



## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Yesterday I completed my first graft using a Nicot Cage. Today I moved the graft from my starter cell to my queenright finisher and the good news is that I have at least one and possibly as many as three queen cells started. The bad news is that the 1-3 larvae were all that I found when I did the graft.

I think the root of the issue may be related to the 'pre-conditioning phase' when I placed the Nicot cage without cover in the donor hive (into the center of the broodnest) for thee days to be 'accepted' by the hive.

When I went into the hive to cage the queen three days later, I saw that pretty much all of the cups were full of nectar. I put the queen in assuming that the worker bees would clean the nectar out of the cups for her to lay in, but apparently they had other ideas. When I went in yesterday for the graft (5 days after caging the queen), almost all of the cups were still full of nectar and out of the few cups that were not full of nectar, only 1-3 appeared to have young larvae in them (which have now been successfully started).

So my questions for those with experience using a Nicot Cage are:

1/ has anyone else ever had the worker bees store nectar in the Nicot Cage during the preconditioning phase? Is this normal? Is is a problem?

2/ should I have rinsed out and dried the cups to clean out the nectar before cagng the queen?

My first graft is hopefully not going to end up a total failure, but nectar in the cups before the queen was caged caught me by suprise. Any advise for how to avoid this and/or how to deal with it greatly appreciated.


-fafrd


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Yeah, I've had that problem when I left it in the queen box in the donor hive for more than two days. My goal is about 48 hours to "pre-condition," with the cover off (as you describe), but there are days I just cannot break free and get out to the bee yard.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Oops, I should have added that I took a "q-tip" swab and squished out the nectar, added the front cover and put the queen in. It seemed to work fine.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks Grant. So from your response I assume that if you do not clean out the nectar (as was my case - I left it alone) then the queen will not be able to lay into the cups, right?

So you just dab out the cups with a q-tip leving a bit of nectar residue in the cup but that is not a problem and the queens lays inmost/all of the cups, right?

I was going to rinse the cups off in how water and dry before reassembling the cage, but maybe that's not worth the trouble based on your experience...

thanks again,

fafrd


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I have used a Jenter for a couple of years. Each time they have started putting nectar in the cells, but removed it when I put the queen in the cage. I only left her for a max of 20 hours and it was gone and all of the cells had eggs.

They hadn't filled the cells and were probably just drying nectar in there, but it didn't take them long to remove it.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Thanks beedeetree. That's what I thought would happen in my case as well. I had left the Nicot cage in for a full 3 days for preconditioning ad the cups were all compltely filled when I caged the queen. I had thought that they would move the nectar but after 5 days, only about 5-6 cups had been emptied out (and only about 2-3 of those had eggs or larvae in them.

I'll try preconditioning for only a single day next time and if I see cups completely filled with nextar, I think I am going to clean it out before caging the queen...

-fafrd


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## Galaxy (Jun 10, 2007)

I use the Nicot system and I always put the Nicot box in for "conditioning" for 24 hours prior to enclosing the queen. I have never had them put nectar in cells before enclosing the queen. Although, there is often nectar in a few cells when I remove the queen. I just placed 38 cell cups in cell bar frames in two starter colonies today. And, I will place a frame in another starter colony tomorrow using the Hopkins method for the first time.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

I probably left the cage in too long for conditioning (4 days). Will cut down the conditioning phase to 24 hours next time and hope that that avoids the problem...

-fafrd

p.s. have never tried the Hopkins method and would be interested to hear back from you once you have been able to compare the two methods...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>1/ has anyone else ever had the worker bees store nectar in the Nicot Cage during the preconditioning phase?

A Jenter, but yes.

> Is this normal?

Yes.

> Is is a problem?

If it's capped, uncap it. Other wise it's not a problem as they will move it as soon as you put the queen in it.

>2/ should I have rinsed out and dried the cups to clean out the nectar before cagng the queen?

No, they will clean it out in a matter of a hour or two.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I actually leave the Jenter in a hive all year. I move it to the end frame when I am done and then back to the center of the brood nest a few days before I add the queen.

I will say the by leaving it in all year there gets to be "stuff" put in the cell cups. After I had left it in all year and then went to pull larva after having the queen in the cage I found that it was harder to see them because there was propolis? or wax? or something in the bottom of the cups.

I was worried about whether the hives would accept the larva but I got good acceptance and when I went back to take the Jenter out to clean the cups I found wall to wall capped brood in the Jenter except for the 28 cups (now holes in the capped brood pattern) that I had put in the cell bars.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >2/ should I have rinsed out and dried the cups to clean out the nectar before cagng the queen?
> 
> No, they will clean it out in a matter of a hour or two.


Michael,

This is what I thought would happen (which is why I left the cups as is when I caged the queen) but the cups were still almost all full of nectar when I harvested 5 days later. There were only about 6 of the 110 cells that were not full of nectar. Any idea why the bees may have decided to leave the nectar in the cells despite the presence of the queen in the cage?

-fafrd


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Heavy honey flow or your feeding to heavy, some time if you will put in a couple of fully drawn combs that are empty so they will have a place to go with some of the extra incoming flow.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Good point - the guy whose hive I was using as a donor hive had a feeder on it. Maybe next time I will remove the feeder before pre-conditioning.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have no idea why they didn't clean them out. I haven't had that problem.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Michael,

I am going to try a second graft in my Nicot Cage, and thought this time I would try cleaning out the nectar from half of the cups and leaving the other half 'as-is' to compare. How would you recommend to clean nectar out of the cups - rinse in hot water and dry out with a paper towel, or do think there is a better way to get the nectar out of the cups so the qeen will want to lay in them?

Also, how do you clean out your cups between uses - boil in hot water, or something else?

thanks,

-fafrd


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

During my last round of queen rearing with my Jenter (in late April) I took about 26 plugs to put in the cell bars and put the Jenter back in the hive as the end frame. When I went to get it out I found that there was capped brood in all of the frames except the 26 places that I removed the larva, so I put it back in.

I went to get it out the other day and found that they had filled it with honey and had started capping it. I wasn't sure what to do, but decided that I would put it in the center of the brood nest the next day (I had to replace the missing plugs so I didn't put it right back in) and see if they would clean it out. It was late in the afternoon so I put it on my patio and when I went out the next morning there were a few thousand bees cleaning out the frame. In about three hours the frame was perfectly clean and ready for the queen. 

So you might just set it out and see what happens.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Also, how do you clean out your cups between uses

I don't. I used to swish them through boiling water, but haven't done that in years.


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## habutti (Apr 20, 2008)

fafrd said:


> Also, how do you clean out your cups between uses - boil in hot water, or something else?
> thanks,
> -fafrd


Just drop them in boiling water for a moment or so, of course the manufacturer recommends against reusing the cups, they are disposable.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> I don't. I used to swish them through boiling water, but haven't done that in years.


Thanks. So you just re-use the cups without cleaning and from your experience, the warnings about 'poor acceptance' are nonsense, right?

-fafrd


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

beedeetee said:


> It was late in the afternoon so I put it on my patio and when I went out the next morning there were a few thousand bees cleaning out the frame. In about three hours the frame was perfectly clean and ready for the queen. So you might just set it out and see what happens.


Interesting idea. Unfortunately, I did not have three hours the first time I caged the queen. I was visiting the donor hive of another beekeeper and he wanted to cage the queen and put the hive back together quickly. I will keep your idea in mind for next time I need to clean out the cage between uses (or if I have half a day at my homr apiary before caging the queen). Still interested to know the best way to clean out the cups 'on the spot' in case you have any experience or an opinion...

thanks,

-fafrd


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

habutti said:


> Just drop them in boiling water for a moment or so, of course the manufacturer recommends against reusing the cups, they are disposable.


Thanks, that is what I was thinking about doing. Since they are immediately going back into the Nicot Cage, would you dry the cells out first or leave them wet? Also, I see tha some people recommend melting a small amoutof wax in hot water so the platic picks up a thin film of wax in the cleaning process. Do you do this? Do you think t is a good idea?

Since we are talking about a quick cleaning-out of nectar from the cups AFTER preconditioning, I am concerned about losng the benefit of the preconditioning phase by washing away the bees scent along with the nectar -any ideas for how best to get rid of the nectar without bring the cups back to square one (close to virgin state) apprecated.

-fafrd


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

fafrd; just use cold water; nectar is water soluble. I use JZ BZ plastic cell cups for grafting. I don't wash or precondition them. They go from the bag to the cell bar and get a larva transferred into them. Evidently, the bees don't care because they have no problem drawing out cells. You might be making your own problems!


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

fish-stix,

you could be rght, which is why I sked the question here on BeeSource...

On the other hand, with JB BZ cups we are basically talking about acceptance by nurse bees of a larvae that has been manually grafted into a plastic cup, while with the Nicot Cage we a talking about acceptance by the queen to lay into a plastic cup, so I am n saure these are exactly the same thing.

All I knowis that on my first attempt, I only got two larvae layed within 6 empty cups in a cage with 104 other cups full of nectar, so probably need to try something different next time.

Based on your input, I thnk I will try an experiment with three zones next time I use the Nicot Cage:

1/ leftmost 30 cells: do nothing (ie: leave full of nectar if they are filled)

2/ rightmost 40 cells: rinse off in warm water, shake quickly and install

3/ central 40 cells: riinse off in warm water, dry out with paper towel

Still a mystery as to why my cells were full of nectar since others apparently don't have this problem when the cage is installed into the center of the broodnest, but anyway, I might as well learn the best way to solve te problem...

-fafrd

p.s. verifed that my first two cells both successfully emerge today, so I am now the proud papa of two new virgin queens!


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

I've never used the Nicot or Jenter systems but it seems like you may be leaving them too long in the preconditioning stage. The queen will not lay in a cell with nectar so that part of your experiment is probably not going to have good results. Personally, I would precondition overnight and then cage the queen. Try this link for a good explanation of another beeks method with the Nicot system. http://www.nicot.homestead.com


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

I have Gillard's reccomendations and was pretty much following them. Gillard recommends to precondition for 3 days.: "Insert the egg laying box into the heart of the brood nest and give it three days to “warm” up, allowing the workers to polish the cells cups and make it acceptable to the queen."

Here's another link on using Nicot/Jenter, this one to Michael Bush's recommendations: http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearing.htm
Michael says to precondition the cage for 4 days:

Day -4 Put Jenter cage in hive Let the bees accept it, polish it and cover it with bee smell 

Day 0 Confine queen So the queen will lay eggs of a known age in the Jenter box 

I may try a shorter preconditioning phase sometime in the future, but for now I am going to stick that the period others use (and that I now know works as far as getting the queen to accept to lay) and attempt to clean out the nectar. Evetiually I hope to figure out how to avoid getting nectar placed in the cups to start with...

-fafrd


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Thanks. So you just re-use the cups without cleaning 

Yes.

>and from your experience, the warnings about 'poor acceptance' are nonsense, right?

Yes. I'm guessing it sells more cups though... so maybe not nonesense from their point of view...


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