# Spring Split - Last light or Midday????



## greathorned

I had great success this year on my side-by-side splits which I did in the late afternoon. I am always looking to do better. I now suspect that I may get a more even distribution of nurse & foragers if I split as soon as the last foragers come in for the night as opposed to splitting during the afternoon.. I find no literature on this matter. Any thoughts here certainly welcomed. Cheers...Greathorned


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## KGB

I tend to agree with you, but we might be over thinking this. More important for the queenless colony is the weather for that raised queen's mating flight. How good is your 10-14 day forecast?


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## RayMarler

It may not matter so much on a side by side split. I normally try to do it towards the end of the day. I figure it gives them over night to get used to the new situation, especially if I move one further away than just side by side. Things to consider are the frame contents of the split and whether you move the split or the queen right portion away, or to the side.


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## greathorned

KGB, I wouldn't do this until spring, so not worried on upcoming weather. 
Ray, I would move one of the splits to another Bee Yard as I have four different yards to utilize.


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## RayMarler

Yes greathorned making splits is one of many good reasons to have more than one beeyard, but I only have the one yard here right now, so I've learned how to make it work for me.


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## Davers

I currently have a 2 deep hive with a medium super on top filled with uncapped honey. I would like to have a side by side split in the spring. Could someone give me an idea how to proceed. My first split and not sure how to do it. Also thanks everyone for those that partcipate in this forum.


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## Acebird

greathorned said:


> Ray, I would move one of the splits to another Bee Yard as I have four different yards to utilize.


So what do you mean by a side by side split?


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## greathorned

What we mean on side-by-side split is a measure of making two hives out of one. You, in essence, separate your two deep supers and try to equalize the amount of foragers into the two deeps, then move one away at least a mile so you now have two hives. One will have a Queen the other, hopefully, raises another Queen. You have to split your hives to prevent swarming.


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## JRG13

Keep the queenless split in the old location to maintain population, the one with the queen will do better having to rebuild population. You do not need to split to prevent swarming btw, I never had a hive swarm except 1 un-managed one that came to me as a swarm. Then again, we don't get monster flows but if you know when to give them more room and manipulate properly, swarming to me anyways, hasn't been an issue.


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## Acebird

I prefer not to separate the split hives so you can monitor the progress easily.


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## RayMarler

To me, a side by side split is when you move the hive to the side and set the split down in it's place so that both are side by side right up against each other. Then I get bees that do go to the split, and bees that see the queen moved to the side so she gets bees too. The field force bees. Side by side to me, is right beside each other.


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## Davers

That's what I thought was a hive split RayMarler too. But when you move the old hive over and divide the boxes, the queen in the old box will attract the bees to her hive. How do you handle the new hive split. Do you buy a queen or nuc so as to get new bees


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## Acebird

Davers said:


> But when you move the old hive over and divide the boxes, the queen in the old box will attract the bees to her hive. How do you handle the new hive split.


This is basically how I tell which half has the queen. Once you know you can move the queen right hive 5 - 10 ft away and that will replenish some of the bees in the queenless hive. They may still migrate back over to the queen right hive but you will give the gueenless hive a boost. You can also add what ever brood and bees you want as time goes on.


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## RayMarler

Davers said:


> That's what I thought was a hive split RayMarler too. But when you move the old hive over and divide the boxes, the queen in the old box will attract the bees to her hive. How do you handle the new hive split. Do you buy a queen or nuc so as to get new bees


Many ways of doing things. I myself will raise a queen cell for the split left in original position. I could also purchase a queen for it. I could also do it as a walk away (which I seldom do just a plain walk away split anymore). I myself would not purchase a nuc, but I could, and just move the whole queen-right hive to the side and set the nuc into a full box in my old queen hive position. That would get some bees going for the nuc and reduce some from my queen's hive. As far as the queen getting all the field force bees, she won't get them all if she's been moved to the side. The split will get just as many as it is in the original position where the bees had oriented to when they were ten days old and went on their first orientation flights.


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## Acebird

RayMarler said:


> The split will get just as many as it is in the original position where the bees had oriented to when they were ten days old and went on their first orientation flights.


It has been my experience that if one side is queenless some of the foragers will drift back over to the queen right hive in a couple of days if it is within reach. I don't know if you were to keep taking brood and nurse bees from the queen right hive if that will prevent the drift of bees over time.


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## AstroBee

greathorned said:


> You, in essence, separate your two deep supers and try to equalize the amount of foragers into the two deeps, then move one away at least a mile so you now have two hives.


First time that I heard the term "side-by-side" split - actually had to google it. This seems to give a good description of it: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/spring/splits.htm#Side by side

However, the description in the above link differs from the one presented in this thread.


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## Lauri

I have a different way to do a spring or summer split.

I move the entire hive several feet away, returning the established queen and ONE or two frames of open brood & adhearing bees to the old location where a new box with several NEW frames and a feeder awaits. Do this in late morning on a decently warm day so ALL FORAGERS FLY BACK to the old location.

It's importaint NOT to give them drawn comb, or they just kind of hang out. With new frames to draw out and _no place for the queen to lay_, they act like a swarm and *grab a gear*. 

Now you have your split that will have no more fly back. Your frames of young bees, brood and feed stay in a new location within your yard without any more drifting. You could let them make a new queen, but I give them a ripe queen cell or virgin. Keep them in tact as a larger colony or break up into nucs. Feed them well.

The old location, the colony with with the established laying queen, IMMEDIATLY goes to TOWN. Within a half hour the deep box will be about 1/3 full. In 2 hours it will be quite full and by dark it will be packed with bees. In one week those new frames will be all drawn and well on the way to being filed with feed and brood. The younger foragers revert _easily_ back to nurse bees. After a week I move the feeder into a second deep and also give them new frames. At this point, if there is a flow on, they will continue to rebuild without feed. If no good flow, keep them fed.
In one month you will have 2 deeps with new frames all drawn and filled. After a month and 2 deeps rebuilt, it seems the foragers are exausted and perish, leaving only young bees, feed new fresh comb and the queen to carry on. Most new growth will stop at this point and they will settle into organizing the hive interior and young bees maturing. In a couple weeks, Once the young bees are mature enough to once again have a good forager force, if your timing is right, watch out for a quick jump once again in growth. A large, healthy, vigorous, but young forager force will bring in stores like no other, if you have a flow.

It's a miracle for an older hive that is not doing much, or a hot hive that needs a job to do so they are not thinking about getting their hackes up every time you walk by or mess with them. It's the only way I know of to do a _broodbreak with an existing mated queen_. Something an older colony may need badly. This also stimulates the older queen to lay. And lay up nice new frames with surprisingly great patters once again. Too many advantages to mention in this quick reply. I've done it many, many times at all times of the spring, summer and even late summer. I could really write a book about all the details & benefits. In no time, the parent colony is almost back to the same size it was before the split. And ALL the frames are NEWLY drawn, fresh and CLEAN. This is my *favorite *manipulation. I call it 'Freshening' or a 'Fly Back simulated swarm'

Here are a couple photos of one I did this summer.

A half hour after seperation:










One hour after seperation:










3 hours-right before dark










Here is how the outside frames look about the time I put on another deep:










Second deep configuration. (Early spring, before flow)










Top deep after 3 days:










And how this colony looks by late August _after_ I took off a deep box full of capped honey:










This 2012 queens still resides in this hive.










And you trade in that cocoon filled darker comb for frames like this:










There are several tips for this method I need to add to the instructions for you to get the best results, depending on the time of year you do it. No time right now though to write more.

Just know you have to have a good equal amount of both foragers and young bees in a big colony with large volume of bees to make it work like this. I'll write more when I can, including how I figured this out and what hives are good candidates for it. I do this to every breeder queen colony I have late spring. I can then get to the queen more easily, all frames are soft and fresh for easy grafting and for the good health of the colony.

This is a photo of the large colony I show above. ( The 4 deeps that almost got knocked over) 2-16-14


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## RayMarler

Don't trees know they are supposed to stay standing?  At least it missed the hive by a couple inches!

Ace, 
Yes, back when I did side by sides I moved the queen to the side and turned it 180 degrees so the opening was now facing to the rear, the split left in place then gets most of the foragers. Like I said earlier though, I don't really do this anymore for a split, but do it to get a cell builder started. I was just commenting earlier on what I thought a side by side split was. 

Lauri,
Very great way of doing it and great short write-up. Looks like it's a great way to do it, you sure have had great results!


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## Wendellww

Lauri,
Thank you for this - newbie here and wanting to do splits in the Spring.
WW


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## Lauri

WW, just be careful If you don't understand _exactly_ what I am doing and why. More complicated management must be done correctly to get the same result. If not, the results can be disastrous. 
This method needs a very large overwintered colony to work well. It can also be a fantastic method for hive that is bent on swarming. You are actually giving them what they want, withought loosing them. And you take advantage of the 'swarm mentality' productivity.

After posting my _Non cooked_ sugar block recipe & method last fall, I saw folks down the thread changing the recipe, (Adding things, leaving stuff out, etc) Cooking it, etc, Many were surprised or unhappy they didn't produce the same finished product I had shown. It was a good lesson for me to be very clear about instructions.

I'll explain more in another post about this splitting method. I should have made a video this year.


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## zhiv9

I usually do roughly the reverse of Lauri's split. I move the original hive to a new location and setup a new box with 2 frames of brood and a frame of honey in the old location. The original hive still has the queen and recovers in time for the main flow. The new hive gets all of foragers, raises a new queen and builds up to a good strength for winter and is often a good producer on the fall flow.


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## Lauri

QUOTE=zhiv9;1169322]I usually do roughly the reverse of Lauri's split. I move the original hive to a new location and setup a new box with 2 frames of brood and a frame of honey in the old location. The original hive still has the queen and recovers in time for the main flow. The new hive gets all of foragers, raises a new queen and builds up to a good strength for winter and is often a good producer on the fall flow.[/QUOTE]

That works as well, especially easy with a capped queen cell ready to emerge. I've done it several different ways. I just find the method I describe above has astonishing results.

With your method, if you do it at the beginning of the flow, the broodnest area can actually become quite honeybound by the time the new queen gets to laying. I do a similar method where I remove the established queen and a couple supporting frames into a small nuc and give the old big hive (WIth all drawn frames & Brood) a capped queen cell right at the start of the flow. With all larva soon capped and no new brood to feed, the foragers have nothing to do but pack in the honey until the new queen starts laying. You are correct, come fall, they are very heavy hives compared to the rest. 
This method just _after _the flow takes advantage of the natural brooding down period of the colony when nectar sources dry up. Natural Brooding down if you have some Carniolan blood that is.

I did the Fly Back method last year, but as I was searching for a good frame of open brood, I came across a big fat capped supercedure cell. I placed the established queen along with the cell and let the foragers rebuild new frames. In a couple weeks, the old marked queen was gone, but the new mated queen had little place to lay due to all the honey packed into the comb. (Because of the timing, beginning of main flow) I had to give her 3 frames of empty drawn comb in the broodnest area to get her laying again and a second deep for the bees to work.


I've also removed the laying queen and left the hive in tact, letting them make all the queen cells they want. In about 5-7 days, I direct release a marked virgin queen right on top. She goes through and tears down all the started cells. This is also a fantastic way to requeen with low effort on the beekeepers part. No digging though the entire colony to look for queen cells. The virgin takes care of that for you. The trick is, you need to let the started queen cells get large enough the virgin recognizes them as a threat. Not as long a broodless period as a walk away method, but a bit longer brood break for better mite control, as compared to introducing a capped queen cell or virgin the same day of the old's queen removal. 

If you move the laying queen _away_ from the foragers, you must be _sure_ to feed. Those young bees don't have the ability yet to collect feed naturallly and they will have the immediate demand to feed larva. Don't be surprised if you move the laying queen with the young bees if you see very little activity outside the hive for about 2 weeks.

There are lots of ways to split / requeen. I'm sure everyone has their own favorite method. This is just one way that has worked well for me. Each way produces very different results with different levels of productivity, depending on the time of year and even depending on the race of bees. _Your method of splitting depends on what you wish to achieve_.
Increases, swarm control, mite control, getting lots of new frames drawn, more honey storage, etc.



I now rarely separate the older bees from the established queen, unless I am actually removing (Selling or pinching) that queen entirely. I find they are more productive and less disrupted this way.

The Older foragers_ love_ the old queen. They are loyal to her to the death. _They are reluctant to allow the colonies genetics to change_ if there is any chance they can keep them going (Making their own queen cells even though a new mated queen has been recently introduced.) It's far easier to introduce a new mated queen to young bees than older foragers, at least until they have no chance ( no larva) to make their own cells. Even then, it takes a while to reestablish that kind of loyalty/contentment they had previously. 

By installing a virgin or capped cell the moved colony that has all the brood ( _And ALL the mites under that brood_) you are giving it a much needed brood break. Anyone attempting to go treatment free or treatment reduced will appreciate this method of mite control. In early spring, these few mites are your breeders that will multiply substantially with every brood cycle. By getting rid of those early mites, you reduce your overall late summer load.

While the virgin is out getting mated, I find the house bees do a through job of reorganizing the older frames of comb and by the time the new queen is mated and starts laying, the frames are in great shape. Although comb may be darkish, cells are clean, highly polished and feed well stored around the soon to be laid eggs. All cells have hatched and the new queen has a 'blank slate' of comb to lay up.


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## zhiv9

As always, I think it depends on what you want to achieve. I don't want a broof break right before the main flow, but it's great to have one just after. Different splits at different points in the season.


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## Acebird

zhiv9 said:


> I don't want a broof break right before the main flow,


Huh? The brood break is winter. This topic is spring splits. If you split the hive in spring you are expecting the main flow to nourish the new split especially if the queenless half is growing its own queen. If you split a hive after the flow you become a baby sitter. That would be the last thing that I would want.


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## zhiv9

Is that not what I said? I want the original hive to maintain/recover its strength for the flow. The split raises it's own queen with the foragers and a couple of frames of brood. What I don't want two equally weak hives going into the flow. The idea is too have a low maintenance split and a production colony.


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## Acebird

zhiv9 said:


> What I don't want two equally weak hives going into the flow.


A single split from a very strong hive in the spring will barely make a dent in an over wintered queen. You will be hard pressed to have the split off half equal the parent hive even if you introduce a mated queen. So I don't get two equally weak hives going into a flow unless you split a weak hive to begin with.


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## zhiv9

If you move the original hive 2 or 3 weeks before the flow and have it raise a new queen while leaving the old queen with the foragers and a couple of frames, you will end up with two weaker hives at the start of the flow. By the end of the flow both will likely be in good shape but won't have produced much/any surplus.


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## Lauri

zhiv9 said:


> If you move the original hive 2 or 3 weeks before the flow and have it raise a new queen while leaving the old queen with the foragers and a couple of frames, you will end up with two weaker hives at the start of the flow. By the end of the flow both will likely be in good shape but won't have produced much/any surplus.


True, if your timing is bad & if honey production is your only goal.
 I usually leave all the honey for a first year colony, harvest honey from a second year hive and in their third or fourth year, after the early Maple flow, will break them up into the flyback swarm and several nucs. 

I'm more interested in increases and hive health than a lot of surplus honey. I am also more interested in getting a* LOT* of new frames drawn out. If nothing else, a flyback swarm is and excellent way to get new frames drawn out quickly, almost any time of the season. 

I'll be overwintering 235 colonies this year, built up from 10 original colonies + about 30 packages purchased in 2012. No other bees were purchased for my increases.

Drawn filled frames are importaint, but so are clean drawn _empty_ frames. You can never have too many of them come spring.










This frame below was laid up by a 2012 queen shortly after a Fly Back Swarm & break up of a 3 year old hive that was 5 deeps high come spring before our main flow. This is a 2014 photo. Hives like this are prime for a Fly Back method to avoid swarming, reduce any mite loads and 'Freshen' the colony and frames. After overwintering twice, this queen is a candidate for a grafting. She would be next to impossible to find regualrly in the old large colony, and grafting from the older frames is no fun.


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## Acebird

zhiv9 said:


> If you move the original hive 2 or 3 weeks before the flow and have it raise a new queen while leaving the old queen with the foragers and a couple of frames, you will end up with two weaker hives at the start of the flow. By the end of the flow both will likely be in good shape but won't have produced much/any surplus.


Yes, I am sorry I got confused with the methods discussed.


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## karenarnett

Where can i find the followup post that Lauri mentioned above? Interested in the promised essential details.


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## karenarnett

Hi Lauri, Did you ever manage to write up details for your flyback split method that you describe here in general terms? Here's what you said above: _"There are several tips for this method I need to add to the instructions for you to get the best results, depending on the time of year you do it. No time right now though to write more."_

Thanks.


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## Lauri

karenarnett said:


> Hi Lauri, Did you ever manage to write up details for your flyback split method that you describe here in general terms? Here's what you said above: _"There are several tips for this method I need to add to the instructions for you to get the best results, depending on the time of year you do it. No time right now though to write more."_
> 
> Thanks.


 I have written more about it, but on different threads here on beesource. Here is one:


Post # 188 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...87#post1597987


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## Lauri

karenarnett said:


> Hi Lauri, Did you ever manage to write up details for your flyback split method that you describe here in general terms? Here's what you said above: _"There are several tips for this method I need to add to the instructions for you to get the best results, depending on the time of year you do it. No time right now though to write more."_
> 
> Thanks.


 I have written more about it, but on different threads here on beesource. Here is one:


Post # 188 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...87#post1597987


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## COAL REAPER

Lauri said:


> I have written more about it.


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## Cal

--- Hi -- I would like to thank you for the info. -- I will be doing the "fly back" thing later today for the first time -- you saved me from making a mistake - I was going to give the queen part of the split drawn comb so that she could get back to laying -- the brood and nursery bees will be used to built up a hive designated for honey production -- I will be using sometime called "OTS: queen rearing by Mel Disselkoen - on this designated hive - I believe by adding the brood and nursery bees from the "fly back" to it - I can make it extra strong - Therefore producing more honey - thank again --


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## Lauri

I made up some super jumbo frames and will get them occupied by doing a flyback. There are so many variations to this method a person can do depending on your desired result.

I have overwintered triple deeps that are getting full I will be using. But instead of the normal removal of brood frames and adhering bees, I will shake off most of the bees back into the original location so the established queen has a monstrous amount of bees and virtually no comb. I want these frames to be well filled quickly and good balance of ages of bees going into honey flow.

I have several overwintered singles that are fat I can simply add the (now beeless) brood and feed frames to for almost instant occupation. Then once I have queen cells in a few weeks, I can split them at that time.

Or I can place five frames above an excluder on a well populated hive, let bees move up to occupy and make some quick and easy nucs with some overwintered spare queens.

























This year, I will OAV the flyback colony before the single center frame of open brood is capped. I'll give them a day or two to settle in before I do it. I can also allow the frame to be capped and then remove it once they get a start on comb building. Options there if you just give it a little thought.

Here's a look at my double bottom board/pallet combo. I use standard equipment for the jumbo deep frames. It will be my first time using them.









After several years of beekeeping, It was pretty obvious to me queens lay up deep frames better than mediums. I know, some will disagree, that's the way I see it here.
My mind wanders occasionally to the Jumbo deeps the Europeans use, pretty extensively.
If queens lay up a deep better than a medium, would she lay up a Jumbo deep even better? Possible overwinter better on a long comb as they would build more naturally?
The uninterrupted Spiral pattern is what I am after, without interruption from spaces between frames.

I made some top bars and trimmed standard bottom bars for the sides and bottom. Used my Hot glue gun to hold in foundation. Pneumatic Stapler of course to nail the frames together.

Here are a few photos of the Super Jumbo deeps, even larger than normal, but what the heck!
I had to thin down the fat edge of the rite cell to fit in the grove, but the belt sander took care of that easily with a few seconds on each side.








All on a 2 hive pallet/bottom board combo with sloped floor that pops in or out easily for cleaning or diversity. I used scrap FRP here for the floor, but you could use anything you choose, or change it depending on the season.
Made 4 Frames with area for foundationless / drone cells which will go on each end, second from the outside.(Disregard the cut corner on the bottom foundation, using up some scrap)
I have built and tried several alternative hive types in the past. They are all fun to fool with and interesting, but I've yet to find a design that beats Langstroth for flat out reliable performance.


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## SuiGeneris

Lauri said:


> I have written more about it, but on different threads here on beesource. Here is one:
> 
> 
> Post # 188
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...87#post1597987


Sorry to resuscitate this older thread, but the above link doesn't work and I cannot find the thread being referred to. Does someone have a working link to Lauri's additional details on flyback splits?

Thanks

Bryan


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## Lauri

SuiGeneris said:


> Sorry to resuscitate this older thread, but the above link doesn't work and I cannot find the thread being referred to. Does someone have a working link to Lauri's additional details on flyback splits?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Bryan


Here it is Bryan:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...mites-opinion-thread/page10&highlight=flyback


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## SuiGeneris

Thanks!


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## SuiGeneris

Lauri said:


> Here it is Bryan:
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...mites-opinion-thread/page10&highlight=flyback


Thanks Lauri, if you don't mind I have a couple of basic questions about your method. Just as a bit of info, I'm brand-new at beekeeping and my first hive is needing to be split. I've put a super on to try and keep them from swarming, and am planning on splitting on Sunday (Saturday if the rain stays away).


You mention the importance of feeding a couple of times. Do you feed only the colony with the old queen (i.e. the one with a frame or two of brood and the remainder undrawn comb), or both hives?
For the hive that keeps most of its frames, I assume you need to manage it normally - i.e. with my hive as packed as it is, and with a lot of brood about to hatch out, supering is likely necessary/etc.
Is robbing between the old and new hive an issue?

Thanks!


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