# Bees crawling on ground



## Tom G. Laury

*Crawlers*

At my shop I have a yard for loading trucks. The ground is bare, and it's easy to see crawling bees. Every time I've had trouble with collapse it has been preceded by the appearance of crawling bees. Wind may blow them away, but in a couple days, there they are again. In my own experience, it is an ominous sign. If the nectar & pollen situation is marginal, treat for varroa and start feeding to build up populations. What I have seen is that they just continue to dwindle. Sorry


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## RayMarler

Not a good sign, from my experience here. I'm suspecting it's from some kind of symptom from varroa mites. I've removed the queen with a couple frames of sealed brood, a frame of nectar with pollen, and an empty drawn comb frame and put into a 4 frame nuc and shook a frame of bees into it and moved it away. The original hive I then let make a replacement queen naturally, which causes it to go broodless. I do a powdered sugar treatment or two just before the new queen hatches. After the new queen is laying for a round of brood or two, the symptoms seem to clear up. Good luck to you. ;0)


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## Walliebee

What you are dealing with is a classic sign of tracheal mites. 

The UGA honeybee program says-

"Tracheal mites live, breed and lay eggs in the tracheal system. The adults and eggs plug the tubes of the trachea which impairs oxygen exchange. They also spread secondary diseases and pathogens since they puncture the trachea in order to feed. Individual bees die due to the disruption to respiration, damage to the tracheae.

Infested bees will be seen leaving the colony and crawling on the grass just outside the hive. They will crawl up the blades of grass or the hive, fall back down and try again. The wings may be disjointed and the bees unable to fly. The abdomens may be swollen. In late stages of infestation, bees will abscond from the hive.

One method for controlling tracheal mites is the use of menthol, available from most bee supply companies. The temperature must be above 60° F in order for the menthol to work.
Another less caustic treatment for tracheal mites is an oil extender patty. It consists of two parts sugar to one part vegetable shortening. Make a small patty about four inches in diameter and sandwich it between wax paper. Cut the wax paper around the edges so the bees have access to the patty. Center the oil patty on top of the frames within the hive body."


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## Luke

Can menthol be used with supers on? How does the oil extender patty work and how long or often do you use it? I don't know how long it will take for an order of menthol to arrive.


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## riverrat

*just a thought*

usually if it is tracheal mites the bees on the ground will act drunk, disoriented, and mentally impaired. If you have bees crawling around that appear normal other than they cant fly. Could there be a possiblity your hive swarmed. These may be young nurse bees that tried to leave with the swarm but was unable to fly off with them.


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## Margaret Sloan

*Bees on ground*

We've just started beekeeping, and in the last two days we've noticed bees crawling on the ground, usually around 16-20 at a time. They don't look old (their wings are still good), but when we collect them and put them in a jar (holes in the lid for air), they eventually go into convulsions and die. It's horrible.

We've got varroa mite, very high numbers in one hive (3 days after Apiguard treatment-256 count on a one box hive, 80 count on a two box hive.) We're on our second application.

There's lots of activity at the hive entrances. The second box in the two box hive has almost no brood. We haven't been in the bottom box recently to check the brood nest. We're also in the middle of a nectar flow. 

Any help would be appreciated.

Margaret Sloan

http://oneblockdiet.sunset.com/


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## Jim Fischer

Yes, tracheal mites for sure.
Nothing else forces bees to crawl - bees simply do not crawl outside unless
they are exhausted from a long foraging trip, or simply cannot get
enough oxygen into their trachea to fly.

Both these beekeepers need replacement queens, as the entity that sold them defective tracheal mite-susceptible queens owes them free replacements.

There is simply no excuse for shipping such defective queens in the
21st century. The techniques for breeding out such problems are
trivial for any producer worth his salt.

Treating the problem with menthol means pulling off supers first, and
treating the problem is nothing more than a short-term kluge of a fix.

These novice beekeepers were defrauded by people who should have
known better, and likely knew that they were selling defective products
at full retail prices.


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## Walliebee

Luke said:


> Can menthol be used with supers on? How does the oil extender patty work and how long or often do you use it? I don't know how long it will take for an order of menthol to arrive.



No, you can't use menthol with supers on. I don't like menthol at all because it seems to linger a long time in the hive and soaks into the wax forever. 

The oil actualy coats the outside of the bees in a very fine layer that confuses the mites because they cannot locate new bees to infect through this oily layer. The sugar in the patty is just to attract the bees to it. Add a new patty when the old one is gone or dried out. If it's really hot the patties will melt. 

Another option is to fog with FGMO (food grade mineral oil) without the thymol in it. It will coat the bees as well. Fog once a week for 4-6 weeks.

Margaret Sloan-
Sounds like you are having the same problem.


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## Margaret Sloan

Thanks for your help.

Can we do the sugar and oil treatment at the same time as we are treating with Apiguard?


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## Luke

Thanks. I will try fogging with mineral oil.


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## honeyshack

If the mites are that bad, I would pull the supers and take them put of production and get them under control. I would treat with 2 rounds of mite away 2. Mite away has a definite temperature constrain but it does treat for both mites. But with such high counts you will most deifinetly need two treatments. Your other option is Check mite + if that has no resistance. It works really well if the mite counts are really high. Formic (mite away 2) works if the mite counts are moderate to low when one treatmetn is used.


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## RayMarler

I stand corrected, thanks to all for the informative posts. I'll be treating for trachael next time I see this.


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## Southern Bee

I'm having this problem also. 
I'm a newbie, my 1st hive was started with a package from Walter T Kelly, they arrived healthy and have been going to town. 

A month ago I was given a very large swarm, I was delighted! 
When I hived them there was a large clump of dead bees but not even 10% of the total swarm. They immediately started dying all over the place!! There were dead and crawling bees everywhere(and I mean EVERYWHERE) for the next week. I didnt want to pester the keeper who gave them to me cause he had some family trauma going on. This is my 1st swarm so I didnt know what was normal or what to expect, but even I knew this amount of dying bees was not common. When I finally spoke to the person who gave them to me he said he thought that they had upchucked their honey after beeing vacumed in. And that they were dying because they were coated in honey. Also they came from a country club so they may have been sprayed or exposed to other poisons. 

I asked around several experienced beekeepers but nobody seemed to think it was a disease. I hoped it was just my inexperience troubling me.

Eventually they stopped crawling and dying enmass and things settled down. 

The new swarm was queenless but they have addressed that (I posted a question about that elsewhere) Their numbers are much decreased but they are industrious and hopefully the new queen they raised will be laying soon. There has been at least a 2 week break for them with no brood at all.

The thing is some of the new swarm migrated to my 1st hive. 

Now every day I see a few bees from that hive with the crawling problem. Crawling away from the hive, cant fly or flying in small little jumps, falling over like they are drunk. Healthy looking other wise, not ragged or old, No deformed or K wings. No visable Verroa, at least to naked eye.

After Googling "crawling bees" I have been suspecting that it is tracheal mites but all the people here (where I live that is) I talked to didnt think so, they were stumped. I even tried to reach our State Apiarist, but he is unavailable and his voice mail always full.


The 1st hive started with the package is pretty strong and growing with 2 deep about 50% full. Thats reasonable for a 2 month old colony isint it? I see about 3 bees a day crawling away. I am sure there are others I dont see. Obviously I want healthy bees but they are not dying enmass so how do I need to treat it. Should I just use the grease patties 1st or one of the miticides. Will the treatments effect the brood? 

The swarm colony is not strong, no brood right now but hopefully soon.

I have been feeding them both syrup, just started using honey b healthy, and they are gathering nectar and pollen. 

I dont plan on harvesting any honey from either colony this year. Just want to get them healthy and strong.

I'm a new hobbiest, I only have the 2 colonies so far, but everyone has to start somewhere. For me these 2 hives are important cause they are all I've got.

Anyway I was REALY glad to see this post !!! Sorry others are having the same problem but relieved to see there are answers. And glad to know I'm not a bee hypochondriac.


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## Margaret Sloan

The numbers of crawlers we are seeing seems to have decreased, although it's hard to tell, there are so many Argentine ants that whisk them away as soon as they begin to die. 

We are suspecting that it may be California buckeye poisoning (there are a few growing nearby). They don't act like it's tracheal mite. We'd like to test for the mites, but we don't have a dissecting microscope.

How many crawlers indicates a problem? We're finding about 15 a day, and that's from two hives. 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us new beekeeps.

M.


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## Bob Harrison

If you test for tracheal mites and tracheal mites are not an issue then I would suspect virus issues.
We are seeing virus issues in bees with low mite loads and have been since around 2001.
tracheal mites were the first mite in the U.S. and written about. Before varroa all crawling bees could be for the most part caused by tracheal mites. Not so today!
In todays world of beekeeping the best information is in recent publications and those are outdated even before hitting the market.
All old magazines & books from the 80's and 90's say all crawling bees are caused by tracheal mites.
Even information published in bee magazines are usually a few months behind what is going on in the field.
The internet helps due to speed of getting information but quite a bit is dated and most beekeepers in the field working bees daily have little time for posting their methods.
High school biology classes can do tracheal mite testing and the teacher does mine as a class project saving me time.
*if* tracheal mites are not a problem then I would look at the varroa control. Improving varroa control is the easiest way to control virus issues.
good luck!


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## JPK

At what point would most experienced beeks here become concerned about an "issue" based upon the number of bees observed walking/crawling around?

Its not unusual for me to see one or two in front of my two hives if I sit out there for 15 mins or more.


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## Axtmann

*ants in a hive*

When you have trouble with ant, mount one short angle iron on each leg of you hive stand. Place all four legs in empty cans (from hearing, dog food, cat food or whatever you have) and fill a little bit oil in each can. It solve the problem, the ants can’t swim in oil and than climb up to the hive.
It works not with wood legs because the wood soaks oil and the can will be empty.


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## BEES4U

*Adult bees may lose the ability to fly. They crawl along the ground; their hind wings*

http://www.pir.sa.gov.au/livestock/industries/bees/disease_management/lcbexx4

Nosema
Causative Agent:

Nosema apis (protoza)

Age of Brood Affected:

Adult bees.

Method of Disease Infection:

Adult bees ingest nosema spores from contaminated water or food, by food exchange with other bees or in their duties of cleaning contaminated combs.

Worker bees, queen bees and drones are all susceptible to infection.

Symptoms of Disease:

Bees infected with Nosema apis often show no unique symptoms - many symptoms attributed to nosema may apply to other diseases.

Where present symptoms include:

Adult bees may lose the ability to fly. They crawl along the ground; their hind wings may be unhooked from the front wings and held at unusual angles. 
Adult bees may have a sickly look with greasy-looking abdomens. 
Hives may be covered in spots of faecal matter due to dysentery in severe infections. 
An accumulation of dead bees at the hive entrance - this symptom is not common as most field bees die some distance from the hive. 
A reduction in the colony population - this may be rapid or subtle. 
_________________________________________________________________

http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=5224

Canadian Honey Council - Fumagillin: Its manufacture and use 
*Symptoms of nosema disease resemble those of others such as tracheal mite infection, *paralysis, pesticide poisoning, starvation and dysentery. ... 
http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=5224 - 24k Similar Pages 


Regards,
Ernie Lucas Apiaries


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## Rosies

*Walliebee*

How do you fog with food grade mineral oil? I really need to know this.


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## ScadsOBees

Southern Bee said:


> A month ago I was given a very large swarm, I was delighted!
> When I hived them there was a large clump of dead bees but not even 10% of the total swarm. They immediately started dying all over the place!! There were dead and crawling bees everywhere(and I mean EVERYWHERE) for the next week. I didnt want to pester the keeper who gave them to me cause he had some family trauma going on. This is my 1st swarm so I didnt know what was normal or what to expect, but even I knew this amount of dying bees was not common. When I finally spoke to the person who gave them to me he said he thought that they had upchucked their honey after beeing vacumed in.


Southern Bee, your problem was caused by the bee vacuum. Bee vacuums are the number one cause of bee death, after mites and nosema. (ok, I just made that up, but vacuums kill bees, especially bees filled with honey!). Swarms don't need to be vacuumed, just shake into a box!

As far as crawling bees...I always have some in front of the hives. My hives have been thriving, I just figure (right or wrong?) that when a total of 14,000 bees are hatching out of 7 hives(and taking orientation flights), that if there are 20 or so, that is less than 0.2% (that is 2 10ths of a percent) that have some congenital defect (wings or muscle), that is doing pretty good. The drones seem to have a few more per capita defects.


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## Michael Bush

>How do you fog with food grade mineral oil? I really need to know this.

Try a search. There have been many discussions. Try a search on FGMO.


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## BjornBee

Michael Bush said:


> >How do you fog with food grade mineral oil? I really need to know this.
> 
> Try a search. There have been many discussions. Try a search on FGMO.


Make sure you get the latest protocol and changes made. It seems to change from time to time.


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## DaveWilliamsTX

Hey everyone, I am also seeing a handful of bees crawling on the ground but they are all drones, every single one. Might these be the guys that just got lucky? They just kind of wander aimlessly around. Seems like I saw a surge of them early in the week, and the ones there now are looking like the same bees ( on last legs). Still tracheal mites? Thoughts?

Thanks


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## Michael Bush

Just drones might be a sign of a dearth or a cold snap and they were thrown out.


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## gingerbee

This post illustrates several different guesses as what is going on with hives through entrance/ground observation, but if you want to know for certain, these folks do lab analysis. 

Alan Butterfield 661-978-8290 or Jan Dormaier 509-639-2577


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## odfrank

Margaret Sloan said:


> We are suspecting that it may be California buckeye poisoning (there are a few growing nearby).M.


Buckeye poisoning is caused by the bees working the bloom, which is a few months away. It is primarily a problem in the dryer foothills, not the cool moist baylands, and I rarely see it here on the peninsula.


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## Keith Jarrett

riverrat said:


> will act drunk, disoriented, and mentally impaired. .


Hey RR, are you talking about the bees or beekeeper?


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## pgayle

gingerbee said:


> This post illustrates several different guesses as what is going on with hives through entrance/ground observation, but if you want to know for certain, these folks do lab analysis.
> 
> Alan Butterfield 661-978-8290 or Jan Dormaier 509-639-2577


Well, lots of things are present in any hive at any one time. When I sent my bees to the USDA bee lab and got a positive test for Nosema, the guy was careful to say that he wasn't sure that was what killed them. 

Just the same, I would be interested in knowing what they test for, and how they test etc. Are they commercial labs, or university research?


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## beeslinger

I fog with FGMO once a week. I still have a few crawling in front and I have a very low mite count.
How to use FGMO: A very good source for this info is on www.biobees.com/forum This is where I learned to use it. Several members there use FGMO with excellent results. All you have to do is get a propane fogger (NEW!!!!!) (got mine from home Depot), put FGMO (Walgreens sells it) in the holder and spray in entrance for 3-5 seconds. All my hives have screened bottoms so I go under from the back for 3-5 seconds. I do this for 4 weeks then check mite count again. not hard and seems to be effective. I do not use the harsh chemicals. The good part is that you can have honey supers on.


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## garthpro

This thread seems to have gone dead. But if anyone is still listening, did the original poster solve the problem? My big hive just had the same issue, presented itself literally overnight, maybe 2 nights. Bees try to fly but can't. Probably 2-300 dead bees within a 5' radius of the entrance.

thanks for any ideas

central OHIO. 1st year keeper, 2 hives the other is fine 
problem hive was purchased, solid hive is a swarm captured a week after the first was purchased.


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## JWChesnut

Chronic Bee Paralysis Virus and Acute Bee Paralysis Virus hit hives hard this time of year.
You get crawling bees with both. CBPV is not Varroa transferred. ABPV (and its similar, related strains Israeli and Kashmir virus) are transmitted by Varroa.

Nosema will cause crawling bees -- dissection of the abdomen can show a discolored gut.

Tracheal mite affected bees crawl, and can be detected by dissection of the thorax. Tracheal affected bees are usually classically "k-winged". 

Other crawling bees can appear externally normal. CBPV bees are often hairless and black. Many weakened bees have shortened, curled under abdomens. 

The abdomen curl can provide a differential diagnosis from acute pesticide poisoning. Acutely poisoned bees tremble and fall to the ground, but do not have the various external signs of diseased bees.

Some DWV is typically present when Acute BPV expresses, as it is the more common varroa-associated virus.


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## aunt betty

Maybe we should take the time to watch these videos on tracheal mites.
Dissection: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e83shxkObNA
General info: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wy2PG_MB4Y
Symptoms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv4zzGv_x_Q

I treat with maq's or OAV for varroa and it so happens that both treatments also work on tracheal mites.
Tracheal mites are sort of rare in this area though.


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## bigbill3652

*Re: Bees crawling on ground any suggestions to what's causing this are they young bee*

I am seeing what appear to be normal looking worker bees crawling on the ground. Their wings are normal looking. Not tattered and not deformed in any way. They do not seem to be able to fly. If I pick them up they just fall to the ground. Any ideas what is causing this?


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