# My Neighbor Wants to Kill My Bees



## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Hello,

I am a beekeeper for only 2 months. I started 2 hives from 2 nucs transferred to the hives in July, then later I added deep on each hive so bees can collect honey in them.

Recently the guy to mows the lawn of my neighbor started complaining about bees stinging him, whenever he goes close to the hives with his big lawn mower. I tried to explain to him that it is obvious that whenever he is close to the bees with his loud mower, bees will get offended and will try to defend themselves.
I suggested that he mows the part of the lawn close to the hives last, but he didn't want to listen and understand.

He threatened that he will spray my hives with something to kill the bees on what I answered that he can't spray anything on my property.

Now I am concerned if there are ways to kill the bees so I won't know that he did it.

Thanks for all the suggestions.


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

Tell your neighbor that what ever he pays his guy to mow the lawn, that you will do it for less. Then you mow the lawn and the other guy doesn't have to worry about getting stung.


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## emrude (Mar 23, 2015)

Are you bees right at the line? Is there a fence? Unhappy neighbors are hard to live around. Can you move your hives? What are the laws in your area about bee hives? 
I have one hive of pretty darn mean bees and I can mow with riding mower about to a foot in front of their hive and I haven't been stung in the past two years. I mow so the grass is thrown away from the hives. Behind the hives I could mow right up to them. 
You do have your hives facing in to your property, don't you. Some people are scared of bees--and wasps. Can you keep the grass cut around your hives? Maybe if you offered to do that your neighbor would feel better about sharing air space with your bees.

Good luck.
Bee nice
Mary

edit. Didn't get the part about it being a yard service. The yard service I have used won't cut grass, when a branch falls down, if there is something in the grass and a whole list of other things. I wouldn't take kindly to a hired person telling me that he is going to kill bees on my property. I would talk to your neighbor.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

trottet1 said:


> Tell your neighbor that what ever he pays his guy to mow the lawn, that you will do it for less. Then you mow the lawn and the other guy doesn't have to worry about getting stung.


If there are 100 more replies to this thread, this one will still be the best answer. Mow it for free if you have to. Go buy them a quart of local honey and give it to them.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

The hives are in my yard, more that 4 ft away from property line (law is 4ft) and I have to have 4ft high barrier of any kind.
I have the barrier on 2 sides (will be building 2 more sides soon, before county gives me fine). The neighbor side is 5ft high bushes, and the guy mows on the other side of the bushes blowing all the dust and the cut grass towards the hives.
I think there is nothing can be done to satisfy him except moving the hives to other location, but I am surrounded with neighbors, so bees will attack anyone whenever they feel offended.


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## GSkip (Dec 28, 2014)

I have 7 hives which are 2 - 10 frame brood boxes each and 11 5x5 double stacked NUCs in my back yard and I mow and trim around them and have never been stung. My grandkids swing set and other play items are within 15 yards of the hives and they have never been stung. Tell him to produce a bee he was strung by then say "nope not one of mine". Your neighbor may have a yellow jacket nest in his yard and that's what is getting the lawn boy!


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Move the bees. If you get in a pissing contest with the neighbor about your rights to put stinging, potentially deadly insects next to his property, you are going to lose. 

We've all had to move bees when locations we thought would be fine turned out to have problems.

Part of the social contract with keeping bees is the implicit agreement that we will work to make them compatible with our fellow citizens.

This is especially true of urbanized property. If your hives are so close to the property line that they are visible and defensive, you need to move them elsewhere, if your property is too small to do this, then you need to locate them on another tract of land.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

GSkip said:


> I have 7 hives which are 2 - 10 frame brood boxes each and 11 5x5 double stacked NUCs in my back yard and I mow and trim around them and have never been stung. My grandkids swing set and other play items are within 15 yards of the hives and they have never been stung. Tell him to produce a bee he was strung by then say "nope not one of mine". Your neighbor may have a yellow jacket nest in his yard and that's what is getting the lawn boy!


I don't know why, but my bees are more aggressive than any others I watched on youtube. You can't get closer that 3ft without getting attacked.
Any suggestions about this?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I think it's easy to think of this kind of hobby as a "right". While I believe that to an extent, you don't get to do stuff that makes your neighbors live with being stung frequently just by doing yard work. 

I have some colonies in town during the season and can move them any night to one of my outyards if they cause a stir. 

If I had to mow an additional yard for each two hives I wouldn't have any time keep bees.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Requeening is the obvious answer but that's much easier said than done on a hot hive. I don't consider 3 feet from the hive before they start after you to be hot, but to many that would be.


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## GSkip (Dec 28, 2014)

If you have met the legal requirement of the community put up a game camera to watch your bees. If you do move them I would put empty hives back in the same location and see if he complains of another sting. Since he made a threat to do harm to your property I would contact local law enforcement and make a complaint just in case he is that stupid. That's the same as threatening to kill you dog or cat without proof it was the one that took a dump in his yard last night!

I don't like being threatened !!!!!!


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

GSkip said:


> If you have met the legal requirement of the community put up a game camera to watch your bees. If you do move them I would put empty hives back in the same location and see if he complains of another sting. Since he made a threat to do harm to your property I would contact local law enforcement and make a complaint just in case he is that stupid. That's the same as threatening to kill you dog or cat without proof it was the one that took a dump in his yard last night!
> 
> I don't like being threatened !!!!!!


I bet you're a treat to live by. 

These kind of things are ALWAYS best dealt with on a personal level until there's a need to escalate. I bet most of us have wanted to kill a colony after a crappy encounter. Now imagine that they weren't even yours...

The only one who's really done harm in this case is the OP via his bees.


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## ritan1 (Nov 10, 2015)

I live in a close urban area and neighbors are always going to be an issue. You may as well take an educational and "ambassadorial" approach to it. My lawn guy is scared of my bees (although growing less so every visit) and we have agreed that he can leave a 10-15 foot "arc" around my hives - it actually works well and is like a little wildlife sanctuary in my yard and the height of it gets the bees up and over and out of the way. 

But there's something wrong here - either with his conduct, your hive placement, or your bees and possibly all three. If he is mowing in a way that disrupts your bees (throwing grass and dust into your yard and hives), you need to talk to hm about respecting what is in your yard. Bees or no bees, he doesn't have a right to do that. If the problem is an inadequate barrier, then put a good one up - a 6' solid fence, or move the hives to where one isn't necessary. If the problem is the temperament of your bees, you need to address that by re-queening. But you need to de-escalate this quickly. You should talk to your neighbor (with a jar of honey in hand) and work it out, and he ought to make clear to his lawn guy that threatening the neighbors is not okay.


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

I mow right in front of my hives, like right in the front door but they are on a stand and i never face the output in their direction. They dont care one bit. This guy is looking for a reason to get rid of the bees because he is afraid of bees.


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

JWChesnut said:


> Part of the social contract


Unfortunately, I've run into a lot of people who don't understand this concept. My neighbor is one. He has received numerous fines because "I bought the house and can do whatever I want on it"; completely ignoring deed restrictions, laws, and basic courtesy.


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## Metropropolis (Feb 15, 2012)

It is not his responsibility to accept risk for your hobby. It is yours to bend over backwards to accommodate him.

If you can't accommodate him, remove the hives. The situation will only get worse.

Giving such consideration paints our community in a more responsible and positive light.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

My hives are on the stand too, but they are looking for someone to attack once they feel offended: as I posted above, you can be 3ft away and stand for 2 minutes or so and you might get attacked.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Artur_M said:


> The hives are in my yard, more that 4 ft away from property line (law is 4ft) and I have to have 4ft high barrier of any kind.
> I have the barrier on 2 sides (will be building 2 more sides soon, before county gives me fine). The neighbor side is 5ft high bushes, and the guy mows on the other side of the bushes blowing all the dust and the cut grass towards the hives.
> I think there is nothing can be done to satisfy him except moving the hives to other location, but I am surrounded with neighbors, so bees will attack anyone whenever they feel offended.


Seems a bit like you might just be trying to get by meeting the minimum legal requirements for your area and you have every right to do that. But if you what to keep bees and be a good neighbor maybe a bit more is needed. If the yard man is blowing toward your yard and hive and all you have are five foot “bushes” between you and the neighbor why not do more to protect your investment? A couple of sections of 6 foot tall solid wooden fence should solve your problems. No dust, dirt, or grass clipping coming into your yard or hitting your bees. The bees are out of sight and maybe out of mind to the neighbor or the fellow cutting their grass. Also it should mean your bees are protected from the blowing clippings and from an angry yard man.


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## Bolichsbees (Jul 31, 2016)

jwcarlson said:


> These kind of things are ALWAYS best dealt with on a personal level until there's a need to escalate. I bet most of us have wanted to kill a colony after a crappy encounter. Now imagine that they weren't even yours.


This is great truth and the best response on this thread. 

👍🏻


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## ShrekVa (Jan 13, 2011)

I was going to say something similar to post # 18, but they summed it up pretty well. I live in a suburb now and would love to keep a nuc or 3 in the yard, but I realize everyone doesn't have the same comfort level with bees as me. I'm not that friendly of a neighbor but I wouldn't and dont keep hives where I know they will be a pest to a neighbor. If the roles were reversed how would you feel about it?


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## radial (Aug 1, 2016)

I guess if it were me I would start by having a discussion with the neighbor. It's a problem for all concerned that the lawn guy feels compelled (and enabled) to threaten your bees. Maybe you need to move them to another part of your yard. Maybe the neighbor needs to instruct the lawn guy to quit aiming high-velocity lawn waste in the direction of your yard. Maybe you need to take care of the segment of the neighbor's lawn in the proximity of your bees. Maybe the neighbor needs a new lawn guy who is less likely to make threats that create potential legal liability. Have a discussion and see if you can't work out a solution.


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## BroncoVol74 (Jul 12, 2016)

While I don't like to be threatened either and definitely by someone that is just doing work for someone else in my neighborhood. I probably would have told the punk it would be extremely difficult to mow anymore yards with a weed eater shoved up his ass. But on a more adult note; I think a short solid wall, maybe 4' or so, between the hives and the hedges would most likely solve the issue of debris being blown on them and even if I did have to relocate the hives I would let the lawn boy know it would no longer be acceptable to blow any yard clippings onto my property. I would also talk to the neighbor. I have had one of "those" neighbors and they are a pain to say the least. Fortunately he went bankrupt and the bank took his house. Good neighbors on both sides now. Jars of honey all around!


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## GSkip (Dec 28, 2014)

jwcarlson

You just wish you had a neighbor as great as me. I get along with everyone in my neighborhood because when there is a problem we talk to one another and watch out for one another. We don't go off half ****ed and make threats. If I had a lawn guy that made threats to my neighbor such as this one did he would be fired. 
I'm easy to get along with but don't threaten me, my family, my property or my neighbor! Come to me like a man and explain there maybe a problem with my bees and I'll be more than happy to come up with a solution if it's my bees. I would probably move them even if the neighbor just explained they or their children were afraid and had not been stung. The issue isn't the bees it's the threat.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

BroncoVol74 said:


> While I don't like to be threatened either and definitely by someone that is just doing work for someone else in my neighborhood. I probably would have told the punk it would be extremely difficult to mow anymore yards with a weed eater shoved up his ass. But on a more adult note; I think a short solid wall, maybe 4' or so, between the hives and the hedges would most likely solve the issue of debris being blown on them and even if I did have to relocate the hives I would let the lawn boy know it would no longer be acceptable to blow any yard clippings onto my property. I would also talk to the neighbor. I have had one of "those" neighbors and they are a pain to say the least. Fortunately he went bankrupt and the bank took his house. Good neighbors on both sides now. Jars of honey all around!


I agree with you, but there is a kind of situation: I would be more cooperative, if the neighbor or the lawn guy spoke to me first instead of putting government and the inspector in the middle. So I feel that they decided to go by law - I'll go by law. My neighbor is not a talker believe or not.

Besides that, the lawn guy doesn't need to throw the dust and a cut towards my yard, but as you can feel, he is a jerk. I tried to explain him that the best mowing strategy would be get closer to bees at last and just simply run through. He mows the gras using now big speedy mower and finishes the job in 5 minutes, so he can manage to spend 1 more minutes and change the strategy of mowing as I had to do after getting stung 2-3 times.

Unfortunately some people think that the world is spinning around them, and even worse we let that happen being a good people.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Artur_M said:


> My hives are on the stand too, but they are looking for someone to attack once they feel offended: as I posted above, you can be 3ft away and stand for 2 minutes or so and you might get attacked.
> View attachment 27469


I assume you took that pic from your own property. So they are facing your property. I see bushes but no tall fence behind. And I dont think they are 4 ft from the bushes either. 

Why dont you move those hives farther away from the property line into your property ? Are you concerned they will attack you ? Do they attack you when you mow your lawn close by ? If they do, how do you expect your neighbor to put up with stings every time he mows his lawn ? 

You admit your bees attack within 3 ft. 4 ft regulation only leaves about 1 ft of margin, not much at all. With that type of bees, you need atleast 10 ft of buffer from the property line. So move them. 

You got the answer here, but may not be what you like to hear.


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## Motomania (Oct 31, 2015)

Maybe not have to move the hives..........but the few sections of privacy fence were a good idea, and easy solution. Or........I actually have my hive (hoping to be 'hives' next season) in a row of dense evergreens.(15' tall thuja green Giants) my neighbors don't even know, I slightly bent one of the branches down to give the bees an opening near the hive entrance to shoot into and out of; and I don't suit up until I'm in the thujas. So far so good!
-
But your bees sound like they might be a bit grumpy for your circumstances. For someone in a rural area with no neighbors; no big deal. But you may consider re-queening from a reputable, seller with docile queens? (Just thinking out loud here)
-
Cause my first Nuc in the spring was too aggressive for the learning experience myself and two 7 year old girls wanted to explore. So we re-queened and our new batch of bees are as sweet as candy. We can sit next to the hive and watch them come and go without a care.(of course getting into the hive though does require protective clothing,'which we are fine with........cause it's their house we are popping the roof off


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## usngunr (Feb 21, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> Part of the social contract with keeping bees is the implicit agreement that we will work to make them compatible with our fellow citizens.


Yeah. NO. Honey Bees are a natural part of the landscape and ecology. IF I were establishing a hornet ranch, then yes, I would concur. Otherwise if I am within the parameters of existing law and ordinances, then why on earth should one subjugate our rights on our property to another? I'm all about getting along with neighbors, as long as everyone is reasonable. I even keep epi-pens on hand (no one in our family is allergic) just in case. I'll not roll over for anybody for what i legally do on my property. To do otherwise is to forfeit ones' own liberty.


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## usngunr (Feb 21, 2013)

Metropropolis said:


> It is not his responsibility to accept risk for your hobby. It is yours to bend over backwards to accommodate him.


Not in America it's not. Property rights within the framework of the law is sacrosanct. I've had hives for 5 years and the house next door is rented to an insectaphobe. I have to get rid of my bees. Yeah. No.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

First off, I'm glad I chose to live in the country. Second, I have 24 hives in my back yard within 2 feet of the property line, which is fenced with a 6 foot tall fence in which the neighbor installed 16 years ago. I can mow, even in a dearth with my rider deck UNDER the hive stands and not get stung.
Check your hives.. there's a reason they are this defensive.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

DaisyNJ said:


> I assume you took that pic from your own property. So they are facing your property. I see bushes but no tall fence behind. And I dont think they are 4 ft from the bushes either.
> 
> Why dont you move those hives farther away from the property line into your property ? Are you concerned they will attack you ? Do they attack you when you mow your lawn close by ? If they do, how do you expect your neighbor to put up with stings every time he mows his lawn ?
> 
> ...


The bees are in my property about 10ft. They are not attacking me whenever I am walking by or observing them for 2-3-5 minutes (I don't have much time to observe them).
They don't attack me whenever I get closer with my lawn mower, but stay away for 1-2ft. They don't mind at all when I trim the grass next to the hive using string trimmer.
Last time they attack my wife in my garden, which is 2-3 ft next to the hives area, but she was 5-6 ft away from the closest hive.
I found easy solution to that: since bees attack bears, raccoons and skunks - I am just putting light color baseball hat to cover my hair, so they don't get confused that I am a bear or skunk.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Mr.Beeman said:


> First off, I'm glad I chose to live in the country. Second, I have 24 hives in my back yard within 2 feet of the property line, which is fenced with a 6 foot tall fence in which the neighbor installed 16 years ago. I can mow, even in a dearth with my rider deck UNDER the hive stands and not get stung.
> Check your hives.. there's a reason they are this defensive.


I believe the heat is the big issue. They are relatively calm (not snail calm though) on not a sunny day. It's about 90+ during last week here and big portion of my bees are sleeping outside of the hive to keep the hives ventilated.
Another issue could be the dearth, they didn't fill-up the top deep box yet ( I was hopping to have 2 frames harvest this year, but doesn't look anything close). The days are getting shorter and the trees are changing colors already.


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## ForestHillHoney (May 13, 2016)

How up to date is the photo you published? Have you thought about removing the entrance reducer and maybe propping the outer cover a tad to increase ventilation? I fed my hives last week and will again this week. Might help explain the hot hive. If you are in compliance with the local ordinances and nuisance laws, then I agree with the Gunny above.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

ForestHillHoney said:


> How up to date is the photo you published? Have you thought about removing the entrance reducer and maybe propping the outer cover a tad to increase ventilation? I fed my hives last week and will again this week. Might help explain the hot hive. If you are in compliance with the local ordinances and nuisance laws, then I agree with the Gunny above.


I was thinking about removing entrance reducer, but afraid of robbing.
Somehow, the top feeder I have, I think they make the hives more hot.
Strangely enough, last 3-4 days were getting a little cooler than before (97-95-94-91), but more bees appeared on the front wall outside.
Top feeder called the ants over, so I removed them and tried to smoke-blow all the ants away.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

usngunr said:


> Not in America it's not. Property rights within the framework of the law is sacrosanct. I've had hives for 5 years and the house next door is rented to an insectaphobe. I have to get rid of my bees. Yeah. No.


Believe or not, all my neighbors, except the lawn guy are happy to see my bees in their yards pollinating their flowers and gardens. One of them even brought some harvest from his garden with big "Thank you" from him and his wife, who, according to him, have never had flower blooming that crazy in her yard.

I understand that they are not mowing grass next to my bees.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I don't care what the zoning ordinances might say, a responsible neighbor and beekeeper will not knowingly put his neighbors at risk. Placing hives within four feet of a mowed boundary...especially with aggressive bees, in my opinion, does just that.
My recommendation is that you get a different hobby.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> I was thinking about removing entrance reducer, but afraid of robbing.


A 'robbing screen' is one approach to reducing the likelihood of robbers (after removing an entrance reducer) while allowing increased airflow.

Photos of a couple of robbing screens and discussion in these threads:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?327360-Thieving-Bees
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?327584-Alternate-robbing-prevention-contraptions


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

beemandan said:


> I don't care what the zoning ordinances might say, a responsible neighbor and beekeeper will not knowingly put his neighbors at risk. Placing hives within four feet of a mowed boundary...especially with aggressive bees, in my opinion, does just that.
> My recommendation is that you get a different hobby.


I agree with Dan. Personally I wouldn't have an aggressive hive close to a house in any case. I requeen any hives that act like that.


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

We seem to have this discussion once a month. imo its easier to move your bees then worry. legal or not. you should try requeening them and see if you get better bees. I think there is something else going on here. bees that go out looking to sting are not normal in nonafricanized areas. stinging a mower that passes them on the other side of bushes 10 ft away?:scratch:


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

camero7 said:


> I agree with Dan. Personally I wouldn't have an aggressive hive close to a house in any case. I requeen any hives that act like that.


Is this a good time to re-queen?

Anyone in Maryland is welcomed to check my bees and suggest me what to do. I will repay with nice juicy stake.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Property rights can get emotional pretty fast. In my view, you will do well to listen to some of the advice above, specifically from JWCh. You have a right to do a lot of things on your property...Just as your neighbors have a right to enjoy and use their properties. 

When your bees, or mine for that matter, infringe on a neighbor's right to use and enjoy their property, then that is not neighborly and is the fault of the beekeeper. When my neighbor and his dog were stung last year during a severe dearth, I moved the bees within 24 hours. I sold half the bees at my house within 24 hours. Was a sad day. This year, I brought more hives home with no problem from the neighbors.

It is important that neighbors see the beekeeper as responsive to their right to use their own property unmolested by honey bees. Once they see you are responsible, and know you will do what it takes to keep them safe, they will be much more tolerant of your bees next door.

Someone needs to get through to you that your bees attacking neighbors or their guests is not acceptable. If that is a pattern, you will lose your 'right' to keep bees there at your home because your right has infringed on the rights of others. You would be wise to follow the advice to talk to your neighbor. The lawn service needs to be dealt with, but that is best handled by your neighbor. I mow a big swath around my hives so the neighbor does not have to get close while he is mowing, maybe you can do something similar, it only takes a few minutes.

At the bottom of it all, you must be a responsible beekeeper or you will be forced to move your bees, and that will be permanent.

It is a good time to requeen those hives. If they are that aggressive before reaching mature size, it will only get worse as the population reaches 40-60,000. Gentle bees are necessary in urban situations unless your hives go unnoticed. Your bees, unfortunately, have been outed.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Artur_M said:


> suggest me what to do.


I keep non aggressive bees. A rambunctious hive is requeened early on. In spite of what others have said....when I mow around the hives in my home yard...I smoke the hives first and wear a veil. And still, on occasion, I get stung. I expect to get stung. My neighbors don't and shouldn't.
My advice...move the hives...far away. Get a new hobby.


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## ronsmith9809 (Jul 26, 2015)

Artur_M said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am a beekeeper for only 2 months. I started 2 hives from 2 nucs transferred to the hives in July, then later I added deep on each hive so bees can collect honey in them.
> 
> ...


I think no one has answered the OPs question, so I will, Yes there ways to poison your bees with out your knowledge or the ability to stop them, All it takes is a bowl of sugar water and insect poison


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

If a neighbor gets stung requeen or move them. Personally, I'd requeen but I'd also move them. Everytime the hives are seen it's a visual reminder that there are aggressive bees, even if you requeen. The neighbor may or may not know it's requeened. The neighbor may or may not care, nor understand the hives may become less aggressive in 3-4 weeks. While you may be within the letter of the law but things could get nasty fast. Imagine your neighbor keeping hornets or a nest of fire ants as a hobby. Every time you go outside there's the serious risk of you getting bitten or stung. You'd not tolerate that, nor should you.

That neighbor could go passive aggressive and quietly put syrup laced with Seven dust out. You're hives will be toast. If I know that trick, people a heck of a lot smarter than me know others as well. It's just not smart to have an aggressive hive next to a touchy neighbor. Nothing good will come of this.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

usngunr said:


> Yeah. . To do otherwise is to forfeit ones' own liberty.


 I totally agree. If you start giving up your liberties now pretty soon you wont have any. And thats why we live in a police state today. People just saying ok ill give in. Then the next time something happens they will expect you to give up more.


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## trottet1 (Jul 18, 2013)

Everyone is talking about keeping the peace with the neighbor, but in the original post, it was the guy who mows his lawn who is the problem. 

Did you ever have a conversation with your neighbor about bees prior to setting up your hives?

If so, how does your neighbor feel about the bees and your hobby?

As I see it, if your neighbor welcomes it, then the lawn guys argument is moot. 

That being said, it does sound like you are pushing the envelope a little with your hives and neighbors. All may be cool with them now, but as your bee yard grows and strengthens, your neighbors acceptance may diminish.

Re read my post (#2). That sounds like a temporary solution for now until maybe you can find an out yard to avoid any future potential problems with the people who actually do matter to peaceful living.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Liberties?! Sacrosanct?!

It seems that some confuse local zoning ordinances with US Constitutional rights. A sad commentary on the failure of our public educational system...I suppose.

Zoning and land use ordinances are typically created by a local commission. Those ordinances are fickle, on their best day. A neighbor complains that during the course of ordinary yard activities that he has been stung by his neighbor's bees. Bees placed near his property. He complained to the beekeeping neighbor...but nothing was ever done. Within minutes of the opening gavel of the commission meeting, the rules are changed. No congressional approval required.

Since there are already ordinances on the books regarding beekeeping, it's a sure sign that there are other beekeepers in the community who have fought for and gotten, apparently, very lenient rules. Won't those other beekeepers in the community be thrilled when they discover that they are now restricted by Draconian rules...because one beekeeper insisted on his 'liberties'.

For those who believe that the Revolutionary War was fought so that we could shove our bees in our neighbors' faces....no comment.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Billboard said:


> If you start giving up your liberties now pretty soon you wont have any. And thats why we live in a police state today. People just saying ok ill give in. Then the next time something happens they will expect you to give up more.


Escalate the situation if so inclined but you may end up with a person of the same mind on the other side of the fence. Then what? Your bees run the serious risk mysteriously dying. There are certain fields that are worth dying on to me this is not one of them. Pick your poison, you've got to live next to this person. Nothing will make you appreciate a good neighbor like a bad one. 

Case in point, neither the Jews or the Palestinians are willing to cede a position. It's not working so well for either of them.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

Actually he said his neighbors like the bees its the lawn boy whos doing all the threats.


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## nhoyt (Aug 26, 2013)

I had very similar issues with my neighbors. One did like they where close to his house (until his marmalade tree bloomed) another neighbor who is even close to the hive didn't want my bees one her flowers.... so I walked over and yelled at my bees then went to the police station to file a report about her threats. Police said she was 100% in the wrong (my town just became a right to far town.)


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## pinkpantherbeekeeper (Feb 10, 2016)

Lburou said:


> Property rights can get emotional pretty fast. In my view, you will do well to listen to some of the advice above, specifically from JWCh. You have a right to do a lot of things on your property...Just as your neighbors have a right to enjoy and use their properties.
> 
> When your bees, or mine for that matter, infringe on a neighbor's right to use and enjoy their property, then that is not neighborly and is the fault of the beekeeper. When my neighbor and his dog were stung last year during a severe dearth, I moved the bees within 24 hours. I sold half the bees at my house within 24 hours. Was a sad day. This year, I brought more hives home with no problem from the neighbors.
> 
> ...


I think this probably one of the better written responses with a good way to look at it.

We on the forum need to remember it was the LAWN SERVICE and not the neighbor complaining. But still an issue is at hand.

As Lburou pointed out, if you lose the right to have bees, that is final. As others pointed out, perhaps offering to mow this "controversial" area yourself might be the best solution.

I personally am fortunate where I have bee hive located. They are literally on the other side of a road, behind a small convenience type store. My hives are 15 feet from a sidewalk. Have never had a complaint. Actually I get many people stop by and watch me working my hive. Also have had several stop and thank me for keeping bees.

If you have bees in an urban setting, I feel, that you must be good steward for the hobby as a whole. The beekeepers that can be "seen" by others often end up representing (at least in the eyes of the public) beekeeping industry as a whole. 

Should we bend over backwards? I think not, but it will always depend on situation (complaints), and laws that protect us.


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## Fishwest (Jul 12, 2015)

I simply bought a jacket and hood and gave it to the guy that mows my yard. Problem solved.
I have a friend that had a neighbor problem and did the exact same thing. No more complaints.
If a guy mow for a living he probably encounters bees several times a year. That way he has a suit.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Billboard said:


> Actually he said his neighbors like the bees its the lawn boy whos doing all the threats.


Then the thread title is a little misleading.


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## Joe Hillmann (Apr 27, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> Then the thread title is a little misleading.


I kind of like the idea of moving the hives out of there but replacing them with empty hives. Maybe even suit up when the guy is mowing and pretend to work the bees. See if he still complains about being stung. Then you know he is either making it up or is being stung by something other than your bees.

I do think your bees being that close to the property line is a bad idea. In my opinion out of sight, out of mind is the best way to deal with things like this. If they don't know you have bees it is hard for neighbors to complain about them.

If your neighbors had a hive of mean bees that made it hard for you to enjoy your backyard I doubt you would bee too happy about it, even as a beekeeper.


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## 260alex (Mar 28, 2016)

This has been one of the better threads. Whichever side of the fence you were on, there were some great points. I got with my neighbors before I got bees, so far everything's been fine. If problems bubble up, I'll have to make changes on my end. I believe in Liberty and Freedom, above everything else. But, and this applies to myself, your Liberty and Freedom end at the tip of my nose. If your dog barks and is aggressive inside your fence, and it bothers me, I kinda have to put up with it. If your dog comes in my yard and bites me, I don't have to put up with it. If your neighbor is cool about the bees, I wouldn't worry too much about the hired help.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

I am surprised that nobody is mentioning that the mower is deliberately blowing dust and cut towards the bees.
It's like knowing about fire, getting closer to it and even start playing with it and later complain that you got a burn.

It looks as always, smart people suffer to please the others.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Artur_M said:


> I am surprised that nobody is mentioning that the mower is deliberately blowing dust and cut towards the bees.
> It's like knowing about fire, getting closer to it and even start playing with it and later complain that you got a burn.
> 
> It looks as always, smart people suffer to please the others.


It just isn't his responsibility to accommodate your bees. You have to be 1) able and 2) willing to see the situation from both sides. My one year old (and some change) son got into the habit of running to the nucs in my backyard whenever my wife turned her head. She asked me to move them and I moved them that same night. Could she chase him around the backyard to make sure he doesn't get too close to them... she she could. But it's not her "fault" that I have bees in the yard. Just like it isn't your neighbor or his yard help's fault that you have bees in an area they're stinging him.

There's a variety of possible issues.

If your bees are mean you fix it.
If your bees are too close to property line you fix it.
If your bees are stinging your neighbors with great frequency... you fix it.

Are you sending the trend? It's your issue to resolve, not your neighbor. If you liked flowers and your neighbor had a horde of hungry rabbits that occasionally got out and leveled all your flower beds would it be your responsibility to fix his fence so the rabbits don't escape?


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## Joe Hillmann (Apr 27, 2015)

Artur_M said:


> I am surprised that nobody is mentioning that the mower is deliberately blowing dust and cut towards the bees.


According the the photo you put up if you were to build a solid fence between you hives and the bushes he couldn't blow the clippings your way which would help the problem.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Until 15 years ago I had always lived in Urban neighborhoods. I have seen some serious disagreements between neighbors. If I still lived in a non rural area I would not have bees.


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## ritan1 (Nov 10, 2015)

usngunr said:


> Not in America it's not. Property rights within the framework of the law is sacrosanct. I've had hives for 5 years and the house next door is rented to an insectaphobe. I have to get rid of my bees. Yeah. No.


If our bees stayed within our property lines, I would agree that this is merely a property rights issue. But our bees cross boundaries and go into other people's property, usually to good effect - pollinating their fruits and flowers. Most neighbors appreciate this, especially when gifted with a jar of honey at harvest time. But it is my understanding that the lawn guy was stung while in the neighbor's yard which makes this more than property rights and takes it into public nuisance laws. Bottom line, they have to work it out, and everyone will have to give a little.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

It looks I got to listen most of the suggestions here and move the bees.

Can someone advise if I move the bees 10ft away from current location, will it solve the problem?

*Currently the hives are facing south* and under the direct sun after 3pm till dusk. 
If I move them away from current location about 10 feet and put them against my garage wall (2 feet away from garage wall), *they will be facing north* and they will be under direct sun before 10AM if there is a sun. During winter time there will be no direct sun at all.

Any advice is appreciated.


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## Dmlehman (May 30, 2015)

usngunr said:


> Yeah. NO. Honey Bees are a natural part of the landscape and ecology. IF I were establishing a hornet ranch, then yes, I would concur. Otherwise if I am within the parameters of existing law and ordinances, then why on earth should one subjugate our rights on our property to another? I'm all about getting along with neighbors, as long as everyone is reasonable. I even keep epi-pens on hand (no one in our family is allergic) just in case. I'll not roll over for anybody for what i legally do on my property. To do otherwise is to forfeit ones' own liberty.


You couldn't be more wrong. Honey bees are not a part of the natural landscape. They are, in fact, an invasive species imported from other parts of the world. If they were not put to use for agriculture, they would be treated entirely differently. Oh, not be a self absorbed fool, is not forfeiting your precious Liberty. We live in a society that, believe it or not is shared with other people. And, it had been demonstrated time and time again that you cannot do whatever selfish or short-sighted actions you want just because you are on your property. I also suspect that keeping epi-pens for the purpose of sharing with others is illegal - and admitting that you buy them is an admission that you believe they are potentially dangerous and are responsible for any harm they cause.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Artur_M said:


> It looks I got to listen most of the suggestions here and move the bees.
> 
> Can someone advise if I move the bees 10ft away from current location, will it solve the problem?


In general, it won't make the mowing issue worse and it might help, but I would requeen them for sure. More shade will increase Small Hive Beetle pressure on your hives, so its a trade off. Move them three feet per day until you get them where you want them. You would do well to make an emergency relocation plan (away from your home). 

I'd be interested in any developments with your neighbor and whether he will talk to the lawn maintenance person that was stung. It will be worth it to have the mower's shute pointing away from the hives when close enough to throw debris into the flight path of the bees.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I moved a couple hives a few weeks ago because my new neighbor's father complained that he got stung when he was mowing, and he actually has bees. No point in arguing about rights here, it's a losing proposition to irritate your neighbors needlessly.

In Indiana it's a felony to disturb or damage a bee hive, and bees are now protected and cannot be exterminated (which means we get more cut-out and trap-out calls than we used to). Don't know what the law is in your state, but I'd sure that damaging other people's property isn't legal.

I would move the bees, at least to the other side of the yard. Aggressive bees need to be re-queened, but first make sure they are not getting robbed or are short on stores, both of which make them cranky. If you can't do either of those, they need to be moved to another property pronto, it's not worth the hassle with neighbors.

Join your local bee club -- likely someone there can and will help you out with this.

Peter


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Artur_M said:


> It looks I got to listen most of the suggestions here and move the bees.
> 
> Can someone advise if I move the bees 10ft away from current location, will it solve the problem?
> 
> ...


Someone mentioned about a fence, if you truly believe the bees are calm otherwise are only agitated due to grass clipping being throws, then another solution might be to put a about 10 ft solid fence (about 6 ft high) at the property line just behind the hives. Consider all facts (dearth, skunk etc ) and requeen if you feel. 

By doing any of these, you are not "giving in". In fact, you are setting the stage to be on your side, should this escalate to state inspector and LE.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

DaisyNJ said:


> Someone mentioned about a fence, if you truly believe the bees are calm otherwise are only agitated due to grass clipping being throws, then another solution might be to put a about 10 ft solid fence (about 6 ft high) at the property line just behind the hives. Consider all facts (dearth, skunk etc ) and requeen if you feel.
> 
> By doing any of these, you are not "giving in". In fact, you are setting the stage to be on your side, should this escalate to state inspector and LE.


Ha-ha,
It is escalated to state inspector and LE - they requested me to put 4ft high barrier so kids and elderly will not go through - I am working on it right now: I am putting barrier using a PVC pipes and will put deer-protective mesh - that's the regulation of my county.

I wish there was a regulation for jerks who are deliberately throwing rocks and blowing dust and cuts towards bees.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Artur_M said:


> It looks I got to listen most of the suggestions here and move the bees.
> 
> Can someone advise if I move the bees 10ft away from current location, will it solve the problem?
> 
> ...


In another post you mentioned that your hive was a little more than 4 feet from the property line. Now you say if you move it 10 feet they will be against your garage wall. If you've only got around 15 feet of yard to work with, my advice is to find an out yard or find another hobby.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

I am sorry for confusion, the distance the hives got moved this morning is 25-30 ft at least.

Please look at my post at http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?262224-Moving-Bee-Hive&highlight=moving and let me know what do you think.

Thanks,


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

When you choose to "follow the letter of the law and not the intent, be ready to lose your battle. It may be perfectly legal for the hives to be located near a property line. It is also perfectly legal for the neighbor to put some poisoned sugar water out on his property. You have already lost if you are relying on the law to be on your side. What you need is to rely on good neighbor relations. Personally, I would talk with the neighbor and see if there are other issues with the bees aside from mowing. If it is just mowing, then I would offer to mow for him, or at the very least coordinate so you can smoke the bees before he mows. One other solution would be to get his mowing schedule and close your hives up the night before and then open them back up after he is done mowing. I have always been concerned about my bees becoming defensive when my neighbor mows, and my hives are at least 50 feet from the property line. I have dealt with some pretty defensive bees previously and will not allow them to stay in my yard when that occurs.


Your bees are infringing on the ability of enjoyment of your neighbors to enjoy their property unimpeded. It is our responsibility to come up with a solution that will avoid that. At this point, you and your neighbor probably have a very poor relationship and it will be all the harder to solve.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

You **cannot** move hives 30 feet and not have lost bees go back to the old location. This understanding of bee behavior is fundamental to first year rookie beekeeping.
The lost bees are going to be very aggressive, they will sting on sight.

At this point, one can place a small box with a bit of comb at the old location and collect some of these foragers. They can be transferred to the new hive location bit by bit.

Some of the lost bees will make spiralling circles and find the new location, but others will cluster on the grass at the old location.

In the country, one can move hives aggressively in this manner, but in a dense suburban neighborhood be prepared for a lot of stings, as the bees take out their aggression on anything that moves.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Artur_M said:


> I am surprised that nobody is mentioning that the mower is deliberately blowing dust and cut towards the bees.
> It's like knowing about fire, getting closer to it and even start playing with it and later complain that you got a burn.
> 
> It looks as always, smart people suffer to please the others.


Is there an ordinance about which way your mower discharge is facing? The guy mows lawns for a living and has to get on to the next house. Why would he care or even listen to you? Would you want somebody telling you how to do your job after they already did something that hurt you?


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## bucksbees (May 19, 2015)

Just asking out loud here, when does a species no longer become invasive; 100 years, 200 years, 300 years, or when it becomes a part of the local ecological system and becomes part of the landscape?

Horses are not native to the Americas, but are now considered to be part of the tapestry of it, hence the Wild Mustangs Rescue.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Nabber86 said:


> Is there an ordinance about which way your mower discharge is facing? The guy mows lawns for a living and has to get on to the next house. Why would he care or even listen to you? Would you want somebody telling you how to do your job after they already did something that hurt you?


Life changes, things change - we should not be stubborn :applause:


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Artur_M said:


> Life changes, things change - we should not be stubborn :applause:


You can choose to use the Polyanna principle in dealing with this but the burden of change is most likely placed on you at this point.

Have you talked to your neighbor about this? I may have missed that.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

I talked to neighbor today and told him that there is no reason to escalate - there are several options for "peace".
One of main is "NOT TO BLOW dust and cut TOWARDS BEES". - He did understand and said that he will talk to the guy.

I'll update here how it goes.

Mean while I posted a comment about moving the bees. I'll appreciate help in moving.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?262224-Moving-Bee-Hive&highlight=moving


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## usngunr (Feb 21, 2013)

And lack of reading comprehension is yet another failure of the public school system. I made reference already to being within existing codes and ordinances. If you want to roll over because someone is "not comfortable with that", you have a good time and enjoy being locked in your little "comfort zone cubby". I'll not do so. But then again, I'm an American. I've fought for this country, and I'll be ****ed if i will sit by idly while it goes down to tube to "comfort zones". Not playing that game.



beemandan said:


> Liberties?! Sacrosanct?!
> 
> It seems that some confuse local zoning ordinances with US Constitutional rights. A sad commentary on the failure of our public educational system...I suppose.
> 
> ...


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

usngunr said:


> If you want to roll over because someone is "not comfortable with that", you have a good time and enjoy being locked in your little "comfort zone cubby". I'll not do so. But then again, I'm an American. I've fought for this country, and I'll be ****ed if i will sit by idly while it goes down to tube to "comfort zones". Not playing that game.


You may not play that game, but good luck demanding that on your neighbors. They have a right to their comfort zone, especially if their comfort zone comprises their property.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Nabber86 said:


> They have a right to their comfort zone, especially if their comfort zone comprises their property.


Those who insist on pushing the edge of the rules...neighbors be ****ed....are the folks who give beekeepers a bad name and get more restrictive rules passed. Then we all suffer. To me, it just doesn't seem that painful to be a considerate neighbor.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Agree to not compromise neighbors comfort, although their lawn guy is a jerk.

Once I moved bees - It's about 5PM - the flying bees are aggressive.

Please advise what can be done - I have a post on moving forum.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?262224-Moving-Bee-Hive&highlight=moving


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## radial (Aug 1, 2016)

Artur_M said:


> Once I moved bees - It's about 5PM - the flying bees are aggressive.Please advise what can be done


I would leave them alone for a while. See if they settle down. There were a few things you could have done to make the move easier for the bees, but that's water over the dam. The best thing now is to back off and let them get used to the new setting. With bees, getting out of their way is all too often the best thing you can do.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

radial said:


> I would leave them alone for a while. See if they settle down.


I will leave them alone till tomorrow morning (6AM or so), but I am worry about my neighbors to be attacked while they are outside.

I'll open the doors tomorrow morning and move the box, where some bees are collected now, closer to the hives.

I am very stressed now about bees and about my neighbors.

They are usually aggressive around 4-5-6PM, by now they are usually calm, but not today.


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## radial (Aug 1, 2016)

It will get better. You are doing the right things.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Your bees = your responsibility to keep them from stinging your neighbors.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Short section of solid fence would have done the trick probably.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

bucksbees said:


> Just asking out loud here, when does a species no longer become invasive; 100 years, 200 years, 300 years, or when it becomes a part of the local ecological system and becomes part of the landscape?
> 
> Horses are not native to the Americas, but are now considered to be part of the tapestry of it, hence the Wild Mustangs Rescue.


Part of the tapestry but still considered invasive and damaging to the ecosystem. Reason for Wild Mustang Rescue is that the other option of dog food was no longer legal due to public outcry. 

Invasives are always invasives just some are helpful and therefore tolerated.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

I checked and opened doors to my hives this morning at 6AM.
At one of the hives found 100's of dead bees infant of the hive - it looks those poor creatures got heat exhaustions 

I hope this is the most of the problems bees will experience because of this move.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Never, ever lock your bees inside a hive on a hot day. Use screened entrances and keep the hive cool with water mist and wet sheets.


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## emrude (Mar 23, 2015)

Is the hive dead? 100's of dead bees is a cup or so. Take off the entrance reducers and give the bees time to heal themselves. Check activity at the front of hive. Maybe feed them if you can without opening the(boardman feeder). If the hive is dead, I'm sorry for both you and the bees. At least you don't have to worry about your neighbor trying to kill the hive. Go luck with your bees, keep learning and enjoy your new hobby.

Mary


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Thanks for support Mary (emrude).
The hives are alive as they can be, it just a handful of dead bees appeared at the front entrance. I don't know - should I wipe them or leave for bees to clean them up?

JWChesnut, thank you for pointing out my mistake, but as all of us, sometime we learn by making mistakes. I would appreciate more suggestions how to make life of the bees and ours easier.


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## BCB (Aug 21, 2016)

Artur_M said:


> My hives are on the stand too, but they are looking for someone to attack once they feel offended: as I posted above, you can be 3ft away and stand for 2 minutes or so and you might get attacked.
> View attachment 27469


I’m new to this forum as can be seen by the number of posts I have made…

I know this is a bit off the topic concerning neighbor’s rights etc., but I notice you have tie-down straps on you boxes. That is an interesting thought. Do you use them to keep them from tipping over in the wind or is it a means of keeping the tops from being removed until you are ready to do so?...

Thanks…BCB


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## bucksbees (May 19, 2015)

marshmasterpat said:


> Part of the tapestry but still considered invasive and damaging to the ecosystem. Reason for Wild Mustang Rescue is that the other option of dog food was no longer legal due to public outcry.
> 
> Invasives are always invasives just some are helpful and therefore tolerated.


Thank you Pat, was one of those questions that pop in my mind from time to time.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

marshmasterpat said:


> Invasives are always invasives just some are helpful and therefore tolerated.


Dead on. If they are cute at some stage of their lifespan or offer more positive than negative their "invasive" label is overlooked.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

marshmasterpat said:


> Part of the tapestry but still considered invasive and damaging to the ecosystem. Reason for Wild Mustang Rescue is that the other option of dog food was no longer legal due to public outcry.
> 
> Invasives are always invasives just some are helpful and therefore tolerated.


TIL. Humans became an invasive species in America when we crossed the Bearing Straight land bridge about 15,000 years ago.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

marshmasterpat said:


> bucksbees said:
> 
> 
> > Just asking out loud here, when does a species no longer become invasive; 100 years, 200 years, 300 years, or when it becomes a part of the local ecological system and becomes part of the landscape?
> ...


By your last sentence all life is invasive, pretty much everywhere, when life adapted to land, they were invasive species. At some point, a species would have to be considered part of the local ecosystem. (although I think the timeline would need to be at least on the order of thousands of years for most species). 

I believe horses maybe an interesting case as a horse ancestor (if I remember correctly) once roamed North America. So is the horse a reintroduction of a "lost" species, or an invasive? [This is not a serious question]


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## bucksbees (May 19, 2015)

From what I can remember, a long time ago, there was a version of the horse that had cloven feet like deer, pigs, and goats, but was either hunted to extinction, or died out of other causes.

I think the idea of invasive vs. exotic species comes down to macro vs. micro ecological conditions.

Since bees do more good than harm, they could be considered exotic species, but the boa snake would be considered an invasive species.

lol, guess it comes down to semantics, from the hobbyist to the commercial guys bees are exotic, to the guy paying lots of money to get them out of the walls of his house and getting stung, they are invasive.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

:thumbsup:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I believe horses maybe an interesting case as a horse ancestor (if I remember correctly) once roamed North America. So is the horse a reintroduction of a "lost" species, or an invasive? [This is not a serious question]

Honey bees were here 14 million years ago (the fossil was found in Nevada) too. So were they reintroduced?

http://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=1544


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

I believe this is a forum about bees and anything related to them.
All the horses and pigs are irrelevant here, including the history of bees.

Let's discuss the topic.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Just want to give an update:

It looks the war is over after moving the hives away from property line about 25-30' and mower is not blowing towards my yard.

I believe the main issue was blowing dust towards bees, cause noise is not doing much to them. 
Other mowers noise is louder then this guys mower and he was passing by fast, but blowing towards bees.

I don't know how can I explain this better, but do everything to keep peace.


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## GSkip (Dec 28, 2014)

Glad you have worked this out peacefully and kept your bees in your yard. Don't let the few tall Foreheads get to you!!!! Good luck with the bees, they really are a lot of fun!!!! As you help other get started you will enjoy it even more!!


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## DavidZ (Apr 9, 2016)

Fossil evidence shows the N. American Horses died out between 13,000yrs - 11,000yrs ago
How does their claim to endemism differ from that of other species in North America, except for the length and degree of captivity?


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