# QUESTION: Plastic Foundation, Wire or Wax Foundation added to frames?



## George Page (Apr 10, 2017)

I am a new beekeeper starting over in 2nd year. I started and ended last year with foundationless frames, and the results were not great, aside from the fact that I have no bees going into this new season. They had no problem drawing comb from the very start, but they built really curvy and weird comb, which if I use will only lead to more weird comb. 

So, here's the question:

*Which of the following would you use (cell size and box depth is irrelevant at this point)?

1. Plastic foundation and frames such as Mann Lake PF120
2. Wax coated plastic foundation added to the existing medium wood frames
2. Wax foundation added to the existing medium wood frames
3. Horizontal wire added to the existing frames so they can build their own comb?*

I would keep all frames in the hive the same. Cost is part of the factor, as plastic is the most expensive but the least maintenance (probably).

Any responses are appreciated. Thanks!


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## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

Maaaan, plastic foundation is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much easier, and in my opinion, sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better. You may just need to wax it a little if you don't buy extra waxed foundation.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

For brood boxes I always recommend plastic foundation and if you can get it from Acorn with the extra wax, do so. Why spend the time adding more wax when the folks at Acorn will do it for you for a few cents per sheet? With plastic foundation fewer thing can go wrong and it lasts for years. I tried wax foundation once and my bees chewed through it and made a mess. Never again. For my supers, I do everything foundationless. I do not care if the supers have crooked comb that rambles all over the place. I don't like using an extractor and do crush and strain for all my honey so the comb in the supers will be destroyed anyways.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I like plastic foundation (though I use Pierco because that's what Betterbee sells.) I give them a generous extra added coat of wax and my bees will draw it out in a flash. I find that if the extra coating of wax is very fresh (less than a week old) they seem to take to them faster. That's why I don't buy the commercially extra-waxed frames, like the Acorn ones. Waxing is very easy to do.

Mostly, though, I use plastic frames/foundation combos. I like the plastic frames better than wood, though last summer we had a surge of SHB and I wondered whether the ridges and furrows in the plastic frame edges might have given them additional places to hide. So this year I am going to do some testing on that. I really don't like wood frames so I am hoping I find no difference.

I think the best bet is to try a mix of things and see what you prefer. I started out thinking I'd like the wood frames more, but in practice I found the plastic ones easier to manipulate.

Nancy


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## George Page (Apr 10, 2017)

That's an interesting thought. So, I could use the existing comb that is crooked for my supers. Thanks!


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Branman said:


> Maaaan, plastic foundation is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much easier, and in my opinion, sooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better. You may just need to wax it a little if you don't buy extra waxed foundation.


^^^ what he said. But as far as the extra wax goes, our experience is this. If there is a good flow running, bees will build comb on anything. Without a good flow (be it natural or beekeeper supplied) they wont build on anything. I tried putting extra wax on frames once, made little difference. Much much easier to just mix up syrup and feed it to them if there isn't a natural flow running, just create an artificial flow with syrup. It also depends a bit on the time of the year, I've found it's difficult to get new comb drawn after August rolls around, the bees seem to switch into a mode of stuffing what comb they have with winter stores and basically refuse to build any more.



George Page said:


> That's an interesting thought. So, I could use the existing comb that is crooked for my supers. Thanks!


I tried partial foundations in honey supers. Crooked comb makes uncapping a huge pain, and a big mess. Never again. Our honey supers get plastic frames just like our brood boxes. 7 years of running plastic frames thru the extractor, never had a blowout yet, dont expect we ever will, unless I make the mistake of putting a foundationless frame into the extractor. We have a few mediums with no foundation, put them in the center of a honey box and use them for comb honey.


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## George Page (Apr 10, 2017)

Good points, thanks! What type/brand of plastic foundation do you use? Also, are you saying that you use plastic frames as well? I've heard mixed reviews on plastic frames, plus I have a ton of wood frames that I can fit plastic foundatin into. Let me know.


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## R.Varian (Jan 14, 2014)

Plastic for sure,we use black for brood and yellow for supers all deeps with no problems. Must use glue when nailing or stapling the frames together.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Number 1 for any new frames you buy and number 2 to upgrade the frames you already have.

Oops, sorry I misread. No to plastic frames, great places for SHB to hide and if cold break easy. New frames wood with plastic foundation and use your old frames and add plastic coated foundation.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

George this thread is worth reading , real good answers to the same question, in a nutshell it seems like most go with wood frames and plastic foundation and you already have the wood frames so they won't go to waste and you won't get anymore crazy comb. Mann lake makes a good plastic foundation its all in this link . good luck and have fun

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...Lake-pf-120&highlight=kind+plastic+foundation


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## Ruthz (Sep 13, 2011)

I find that the all plastic frames don't hole up as well as the wood frame with plastic insert. I seem to crush the ends of the all plastic ones very easily, and I don't like the hive beetle hiding places.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Part of the answer depends on your beekeeping practices. Cutting out queen cells for splits/nucs (most beeks agree that swarm cells make the best queens) is nearly impossible with plastic. It can be difficult with wires.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Wax coated plastic foundation added to your existing wooden frames after scraping and cleaning them up.

For any added frames, get wooden frames with wax coated plastic foundation.

For comb honey, one of 2 options...
Light surplus wax foundation in wooden frames, (designed for comb honey),
or No foundation in wooden frames, which takes a little bit more management for nice straight comb.


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## George Page (Apr 10, 2017)

An update...I called Mann Lake and they have unwaxed foundation with 5.1mm cell size. I will use my own clean wax from last year to coat. Thanks everyone for the comments!


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## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

RayMarler said:


> Wax coated plastic foundation added to your existing wooden frames after scraping and cleaning them up.
> 
> For any added frames, get wooden frames with wax coated plastic foundation.
> 
> ...


Ditto what Ray says. My first year I used wax coated plastic in wood frames, it's what came with the Beginners Kit. In the few years past I've tried, wax foundation, using fishing line, like FBM, it did not turn out pretty. I also tried just wire and a craft stick as a guide, that turned out pretty good, I used that on some super frames, I crushed and strained that year. Now I'm sticking to plastic, wax coated foundation, especially for supers, no blow outs in the extractor that way.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Ruthz said:


> I find that the all plastic frames don't hole up as well as the wood frame with plastic insert. I seem to crush the ends of the all plastic ones very easily, and I don't like the hive beetle hiding places.


Beetles are not an issue in our area, so we dont worry about that part of it. As for crushing the ends, my experience is, when you buy the cheaper versions of plastic frames, it happens a lot. When we first started, the bee supply store did a good job upselling me to the more expensive Mann Lake frames that have the metal insert. 7 years later, I have yet to break one of those. A few years ago, I tried the less expensive ones without the metal insert to try save a few bucks. That was a mistake, I have broken off the ears on a bunch of those.

The lesson learned, not all plastic frames are created equal, and upspending for the ones with the metal insert is money well spent. We wont buy frames without the insert anymore, it's penny wise and pound foolish. In the long run, the more expensive ones with the metal insert are cheaper because they last.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I agree with GWW re plastic frames. I have never had a broken one, ever. Not from cold (I got a chuckle out of Groundhwg in _Alabama _commenting that plastic breaks in the cold. Mine are all up here in northern NY -
Z4b - where 30 below is not out of the ordinary.) Or from being pried out of boxes (unlike wood frames which can be damaged by injudicious leverage), or just general damage from being banged around. But mine are all Piercos, which is what my local supplier, Betterbee, sells. 

Never having used any other brand, I can't vouch for those like I can for Piercos. I don't believe they have any metal parts, however.

Nancy


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Greetings George ... You are "way up in Ct" and I am" way down" in Alabama.
I do not know how many hives you plan to have, or how much time you plan to put into this activity.
I started, intending to be a hobbyist with only a couple of hives.
When I started , I tried the plastic because it was supposed to be "easier".
I got some plastic foundation from Mann Lake, and some from Dadant. both products looked pretty much the same to my eyes, but while my bees ( deep 5 frame nucs, in Italian strain) did draw some of it out ok, a lot of it they made a layer of comb between the frames, not touching the plastic. At that time the "(Acorn brand)" was unknown, unavailable, folks here on Beesource said I should have rewaxed the plastic stuff ( I was a new bee keeper, did not know where to get wax  ), should have used wax foundation, should have gone foundationless, blah blah.
Since that first year, I have also seen my bees make this "unatached " layer of comb between wax foundations as well.

It sounds like most folks are advising you to go with plastic because it worked so great for them.
I am pleased for their success.

I have about gotten rid of most of my deep hives, & keep bees ( more mutt, less Italian) in mostly medium frames. ( I am not physically strong any more, & only getting weaker with age.)
I have some frames with half plastic inserts, as lauri has shared photo's of, and some frames with wax , with wires, and some with wax with or without wires, with the wax sandwiched between fishing line in an "X" on both sides, and some foundationless, with just a wax starter strip, and wire or fishing line for support, some with bamboo skewers for support.( And some with no wire or fishing line for support at all, but I don't recommend this.) ( also, some times the bees avoid attaching the comb to the skewers, too. ) If I hear of another Idea tomorrow, I will probably try that too.

Everything works "some". The bees almost always draw the foundationless first. most noticeable on my lauri style half-sheets, but they usually come back & fill in the plastic foundation if I had re-waxed it.
The foundationless space is so small they can't get too crazy, & i can usually straighten it up before it gets too bad, , or just remove the crazy stuff. you need some wax to learn to render wax with anyway.
I have issues with the bees not connecting the combs to the sides & bottoms of the frames, which is one of the reasons that I went to the x-supports of fishing line. ( this also helps avoid the wax sagging so badly in the summer heat when I have given the bees more than they can draw.)
I guess if you had asked me how to get straight comb, (which you didn't), I would have suggested placing well supported foundationless, or wax foundation frames between straight drawn frames you got in your nuc hive, or between the plastic foundations if you are starting with package bees.

( if you are starting with nucs, do not spread out the brood nest too much at a time! bee sure they can keep the brood warm. )

Then when the bees have drawn some nice combs, you can decide what to do next, remove the offending frames, or load them up with wax to get the bees to use them or whatever.
Again to those of you whom have had great success with plastic, ... great!
I am sharing my personal experiences, and of course, i probably did it wrong.
George, good luck with your bees ! CE

ps, 
I do not have an extractor, when I get & use one, my opinions may change.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Ok So I will be the contrarian in the room. This is an old thread so the decisions have been made with the original ask.

I have never used plastic and likely never will. I have used wire crimp foundation in the brood nest and 1 inch strips of thin surplus in supers.
To be fair, when I started in "76" there were not many good plastic products . Once you learn a way seems you just keep on following it.
I can see if your bees cannot draw comb straight, then the plastic could help. I have noticed that 25% of the hives draw comb like crap, 50% get by and 25% draw very nice straight comb. I have split from the good comb drawing hives and had them draw comb for the others. Just pull the middle 3 or 4 frames out from a super, when half drawn, place in a new super on the poor drawing hive in the center of the super, add empty frames to each side, close them up. back to the good drawing hive,, center the remaining started combs and add more empty's. I rarely super with all empty, I generally put in 3 of 9 in a 10 frame ,of extracted comb. when I run out, I do the previous process, on the same hive, pull up some drawn into the center and add empty to both supers.
Nice that now we have more options, each option has some features and some drawbacks. I would think we all migrate to what works for us.

GG


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I'll add an update, too.

Last summer I had huge surge in SHB, even in very strong colonies. With my longstanding use of Pierco combo frames I provided those SHB with handy little hiding spots in the frames in which to hide from the bees. So this year I will be starting to swap out Pierco combos for Pierco foundation in wood frames. I'll, of course, provide extra wax on the foundation.

SHB are the pits, even when they don't destroy/slime the combs. They will have fewer places to shelter in my hives, start this year.

Nancy


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

enjambres said:


> I'll add an update, too.
> 
> Last summer I had huge surge in SHB, even in very strong colonies. With my longstanding use of Pierco combo frames I provided those SHB with handy little hiding spots in the frames in which to hide from the bees. So this year I will be starting to swap out Pierco combos for Pierco foundation in wood frames. I'll, of course, provide extra wax on the foundation.
> 
> ...


Hi Nancy,

If you have "Time" to invest, some want a winter task.  One can warm wax / propolis mixture to a paste consistency. with a hive tool fill in the small holes in the plastic frame the good combs. have a torch going nearby to warm / heat the tool a bit, you can smash some existing wax into the holes as well. Do the scrape and clean at the same time adding the scrapings to the melting pot. I do this with boxes as well filling from the inside any hole ants may hide in. That way you can save some of the better comb. SHB will not winter in my area, so i generally do not have to deal with them. Only time I see them is when the "Pollinators" drop hives in my area in between contracts.
It would be a time investment, but if missing a couple TV shows is worth 3 or 4 deeps of good comb then it can be an option.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

@Gray Goose,

That sounds like a good idea! Does the "wax/propolis filling" keep the SHB from tunneling into it? I had contemplated using something like food grade silicone on new combo frames (specifically buying them totally unwaxed to make sure the silicone stayed stuck.)

I hope to send a lot of empty combs down for irradiation (tail end of an EFB outbreak) and was planning on sending some boxes of semi-rendered, bulk wax. Irradiated comb + irradiated extra wax filling sounds like it might be the ticket. I can select the best of the combs, and aggressively cull the ones that are only so-so. 

I think a lot of factors combined last year to result in a major SHB problem. I am working on controlling all of those that i can this year. Maybe it will abate somewhat. I am in northern NY, so SHB can't overwinter, except within the cluster of live bees. My sticky boards tell me that the bees are still chivvying the SHB into the far reaches of the boxes, and then they die when temps slip down below zero. Every week I hope to see no SHB on my boards, but I haven't gotten there yet. for all of my colonies All of the gear that's off the stacks is deployed outside over screens and with well-ventilated tops so that any moth or SHB eggs are getting frozen. Minus 21 F at night will do that!

Nancy


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## MikeR (May 26, 2019)

I would concur with using plastic foundations AND especially agree with waxing. I haven’t tried the commercially-waxed ones but when I wax them the bees do draw it much faster. Wood frames work great. Also make sure your foundations each have holes in all 4 corners so the bees can pass through. The brand I bought did not have the holes.


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