# Why haven't we put together groups of beekeepers to breed mite resistant bees?



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I think the main reason is that too many people (like Weaver) in order to make a living sold stock with great promise but the stock didn't live up to the hype. You would need to get breeders in agreement as to the traits being bred for. I will pay money for a queen that coexists with mites and keeps mite levels low enough so that viruses aren't an issue, survives the winter here nicely, and makes a reasonable honey crop. And is fairly gentle. I am not looking for a bee that needs constant tending or mechanical IPM management in order to survive. Now where do I send my check?

And just so I say it, off spring of this mite resistant queen when open mated in my area should carry the resistance.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

It's a tough question to answer Fusion.... I put in a fair amount of resources each year on getting new stocks to try out. It's not for everyone. Where I come short as a 1 person operator and working full time with 3 young kids, is short on time. I don't always have the time or bees to capitalize on really developing and evaluating all the potential lines I've brought in. Luckily, I still have enough bees where some gems shine through in our tough conditions of little forage and seemingly high mite pressure. I wouldn't say I've seen anything in terms of good resistance yet, but tolerance may be increasing and overwintering cluster sizes show some improvement but most of my colonies still need a fall treatment to survive. I think to really be successful, you need at least 8-10 people in a given region focusing on a few different lines each, really developing certain trait characteristics that would combine well together within the group and be able to produce enough daughters from each line for a proper evaluation. I also think some II would need to take place as well to really help fix traits in the breeding populations. I'm hoping I do better this year in producing enough F1's from certain lines for a proper evaluation and get my II setup put to good use. I'm also hopeful in bringing in some new stocks to try but we'll see how that pans out.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Andrew Dewey said:


> I will pay money for a queen that coexists with mites and keeps mite levels low enough so that viruses aren't an issue, survives the winter here nicely, and makes a reasonable honey crop. And is fairly gentle. I am not looking for a bee that needs constant tending or mechanical IPM management in order to survive.


Successful treatment free beekeeping apparently requires a certain amount of ignorance, laziness, and luck. The bees that keep me coexist with mites. They are not particularly aggressive, but I do use smoke and wear a veil and gloves. I don't move like a ninja. Viruses aren't an issue, and my bees survive winter here nicely. I don't feed them. They make about ⅔'s as much honey per hive as bees that are treated and fed. Surprisingly, they are not particularly swarmy. Perhaps because of smaller populations. I sell quite a few nucs that I'm told do well. I doubt that they would do as well in many other parts of the country, but they likely would do quite well in Hamilton, Alabama. In fact, Fusion Power and I are in a beekeeping husbandry program together in that we share quite a bit of information back and forth on a beekeeping forum run by a guy named Barry.


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

Andrew Dewey's wish for resistant queens who pass the genes on to their open mated offspring seems improbable to satisfy. The queen breeder has no control over the drones in the customer's area, and there is an unavoidable dilution of the genes that the breeder would have carefully arranged. That is asking for dominant, single-gene resistance, or so it appears to me. Even rising to the state of "improbable" seems Herculean, genetics-wise.

I would think it a great contribution if a breeder could even provide reliable resistant mated queens which had to be purchased from the breeder to provide resistance. Baby steps first. But if a modern corporate sponsor were to be the developer, I think the genes would be patented, or even worse, copyrighted.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

While I certainly want the open mating inherited resistance bit, I more want bees NOT SOLD or claimed they are a TF finished product, until they are really ready. I think the lack of revenue while the bees are being developed will be the hard part. Maybe one of the larger non-profits can organize the finance end of the project, and solicit donations.


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## hillbeekeeper (Mar 11, 2013)

The hurdle? Getting enough beekeepers to agree to the same ideas and the same protocols. That is the first and last problem.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

my guess is part of it is the mythology of FT
a micro scale TF operation is not going to have some sort of positive impact on the background pop 
Were aren't breading anything at this scale, we are merely selecting the best that comes out of the background... imagine if you tried to breed dogs by letting them have run of the neighborhood while in heat. 

geniniticks are part of the solution, but likely will not be the only part. It is quite possible we may have to change hive types and management A productive hive takes a overpopulation to fill a massive over sized volume, that means much, much more brood, a mites dream 

it May be unlikely that you can have your cake and eat it to. Mostly were ever you go TF stock seems to have the same negative qualities.
In domestication every trait beyond survival in the wild we propagate/select for comes at a cost, the cost is almost always fitness/survivability . This is why treated stock has been maintained, it gives the beekeeper what they want. 


Riverderwent said:


> They make about ⅔'s as much honey per hive as bees that are treated and fed. Surprisingly, they are not particularly swarmy. Perhaps because of smaller populations.


I would take that trade off even if they were a bit swarmy

We also need to consider the fact we(at least here in the states) are dealing with domestic livestock (escaped or other wize) not a diverse wild population and what were are looking for may not be inour area, or even have been bottlenecked out.



DerTiefster said:


> Andrew Dewey's wish for resistant queens who pass the genes on to their open mated offspring seems improbable to satisfy.


http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?336712-John-Kefuss-The-Science-of-Resistance-Raising
In this study they were able to select and maintain TF stock in proximity to treated bees in a situation they din’t flood the DCAs with their drones, by only controlling the queen mothers, they were then able to export the stock to a new area with cells and virgins that were open mated there , and mating it there with open mating. So we know it CAN be done, but don’t know the effect of the background 




Andrew Dewey said:


> I more want bees NOT SOLD or claimed they are a TF finished product, until they are really ready


yes, but will it ever be finished… I can’t think of any livestock that will handle neglect well, or any wildlife can handle what would be asked of it in commercial agriculture
I don’t think bomb proof TF stock will ever exist. IE some will get sick or compromised for whatever reason…. The mites over run it, without it being quarantined, put down, or treated it can take out a chunk of the yard.
When it does that its not the TF gentinicks at fault, it’s the lack of good animal husbandry. 
so the question is just what should we expect and not expect out of the TF stock… and part of the issue may be in the name… TF implies just that, you don’t have to worry, check, or do anything about the mites.
Mite restant stock is a much better word for what we should actually expect in an end product. There are undoughtedly situations and locations where it can be over whelmed, and should be expected to be overwhelmed 




hillbeekeeper said:


> The hurdle? Getting enough beekeepers to agree to the same ideas and the same protocols. That is the first and last problem.


sadly yes
While we are asking why IT isn’t happening we likely should define IT. Then take a step back and see if IT is reasonable when looking at the results of comparable programs with other species.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Good question then I went to YouTube and this popped up. Why Puerto Rico's killer bees stopped killing. Natural selection does a pretty good job when we don't mess it up.


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

> Successful treatment free beekeeping apparently requires a certain amount of ignorance, laziness, and luck.


 may very well be the case. I was serious when I said none of the older guys Ive talked around here check for mites. They just don't and their hives losses, which don't sound like many, don't seem to bother them at all. They just catch a swarm, do a cutout or do a split and reload. Combining hives, keeping the better stock whatever that is, to keep hive numbers down seems to be a more common problem 


> They are not particularly aggressive


 that's the main selection criteria around here, gentleness. My main go to guy, runs a couple hundred hives in different yards, has what he calls a rehab yard. All his cutouts and swarm captures from unknown sources go there for a year. If they make it he moves them with the queen. Mean bees can't stay, they get requeened and moved. 


> I don't feed them.


 no feeding here either other than a frame of honey. Uncapped if they need to draw comb or if they're starving during a dearth.


> they are not particularly swarmy.


 I think bees here are swarmy but I don't really know what normal swarmy is. Splits and recombines sometimes seem to accepted as part of the deal tho.



> In fact, Fusion Power and I are in a beekeeping husbandry program together in that we share quite a bit of information back and forth on a beekeeping forum run by a guy named Barry.


 I'd like to get in on this, if possible.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

> I'd like to get in on this, if possible.


Give us some time to run you through our intensive and highly selective vetting process and membership committee protocol. Whoa, you made it. Congratulations.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

> I was serious when I said none of the older guys Ive talked around here check for mites. They just don't and their hives losses, which don't sound like many, don't seem to bother them at all.


You need to let them know that according to recent studies their bees are dead.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I appreciate the desire to have stocks that have resistance to varroa. Wouldn't that be nice. A bee stock that can be propagated across the country and solve this issue of varroa and viruses. While I'm not saying it isn't possible, I am saying it will be nearly so. To have success, the bees in local areas, I call it changing the neighborhood, have to be changed to the resistant stock. How will that be done when hundreds of thousands of common stock floods the neighborhoods every year. 

In Vermont, we attempted to start a queen rearing group, with the intention of increasing the number of local queens raised here. It was a two year program. Over that time, we spent $14,000 that we received from a federal specialty crop grant. Of the 9 people in the group, I don't think any are raising queens for sale. One is raising queens, and doing a great job of it, but he uses those queens to make nucs, and he sells nucs not queens. 

Would I try this again. Sure, with the right group of committed producers. Don't know of any at this point. And, I don't want to take the time to teach beginning queen rearing to people who have no intention to raise queens commercially. Folks do come here, and we take them through the operation. At this point, it really is the only option I have, with the limited amount of free time I have during the bee season.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

"How will that be done when hundreds of thousands of common stock floods the neighborhoods every year. "
Amen, and how many years would that have to happen before the desired gene line is maintained.


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## Earthboy (May 16, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> I appreciate the desire to have stocks that have resistance to varroa. Wouldn't that be nice. A bee stock that can be propagated across the country and solve this issue of varroa and viruses. While I'm not saying it isn't possible, I am saying it will be nearly so. To have success, the bees in local areas, I call it changing the neighborhood, have to be changed to the resistant stock. How will that be done when hundreds of thousands of common stock floods the neighborhoods every year.
> 
> In Vermont, we attempted to start a queen rearing group, with the intention of increasing the number of local queens raised here. It was a two year program. Over that time, we spent $14,000 that we received from a federal specialty crop grant. Of the 9 people in the group, I don't think any are raising queens for sale. One is raising queens, and doing a great job of it, but he uses those queens to make nucs, and he sells nucs not queens.
> 
> Would I try this again. Sure, with the right group of committed producers. Don't know of any at this point. And, I don't want to take the time to teach beginning queen rearing to people who have no intention to raise queens commercially. Folks do come here, and we take them through the operation. At this point, it really is the only option I have, with the limited amount of free time I have during the bee season.


I have never treated mine for nearly 20 years now, having advocated this on Bee-L and here decades ago. In fact, my article was published here when this site was first conceived. South Africans endured this when the mites started to show up ashore; give or take, it takes about ten years to establish a disease-host equilibrium between bees and mites. In short, it is not in the mites' best interest to wipe out the bees. Commercial outfits cannot jump into no-treatment, as others here have pointed out, since their livelihood depends on treatment, such as I Pee Em. Such treatment is myopic, lacking a long-term vision for future generations. Then again one can argue how baby boomers are now exploiting their grand kids' resources, for they believe life here and right now--and for me and me and me, only.

The bottom line: It is the human greed that greases the world to go around.

EB


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

There is no amen to this until varroa is a non issue or the honey bee is gone. It is refreshing for an influential player to admit he's part of the the problem


> The bottom line: It is the human greed that frocks the world Up


 mouthful


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

@MP - what are your thoughts re: Tom Seeley's suggestions regarding smaller colonies more spread out? They make some sense to me but I do not have the dollars invested in equipment that you and other commercial operators do, nor do I rely on bees to make my living.

I'm reading a translation of de Layens (very dated) Keeping Bees in Horizontal Hives. He talks about using native bees and two times per year management inspections. Deeper than the so-called Langstroth Deep frames. Bee having makes a come back?


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

> Why haven't we put together groups of beekeepers to breed mite resistant bees?


Because we persist in asking the wrong people the wrong questions. If you want to keep bees treatment free, who should you ask? What should you ask them?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I see two viable paths to make this work. The first is to set up a breeding program such as the Russian breeders http://www.russianbreeder.org/ with a large number of cooperating queen breeders. As Mike Palmer points out, establishing and maintaining a program like this requires dedicated beekeepers that make a living from bees and can put in the effort required to select for mite resistance and produce queens. The problem with this approach is that most beekeepers in a region are already focused on making a living from honey or pollination and don't have time to invest in queen evaluation followed by breeding from selected stock.

The second is for an individual beekeeper to start breeding for mite resistance and work with other local beekeepers to trial and report on the queens he raises. This is similar to what Bill Carpenter did to select mite resistance and then sell queens. This is also the most viable path for Mike Palmer and Randy Oliver.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Seems to me a bunch of good ol boys too cheap to treat are making much better progress. Of course they have a feral base to work with. I made an earlier reference on another thread to "the blind watch maker" by Dawkins, a foremost evolutionary scientist of our day. Allowing nature to work its magic is key. Knowing better isn't better. 

Partly the problem is the continual influx of new genetics and viruses associated with bee movement. Reduce this and local disease and genetic environments can begin to stabilize. The talk of mite bombs etc is a distraction from the bigger issues. 

Perhaps the beginning of the solution the promotion of local bees and perhaps the eventual formation of bee types in each region. M. Palmer who has been in a game for a while perhaps has seen this develop for his area. This should be what bee clubs should be doing but aren't. Its not that moving bee genetics should be stopped, but reduced to a trickle with specific objectives in mind in support of local genetic diversity. 

Another thing to promote is genetic diversity. This is done if everyone is as self sufficient as possible. Everyone starting a few nucs from their best hive. If breeding was spread out among many people, then there is opportunity for evolution to throw us a new trait to work with every so often. Having too many queens from too few sources is a major long term flaw. At the same time selection needs to be emphasized, whether hard or soft bond. It should be considered to be everyone's job. 

Scientists could work on characterizing local bee genetics as well as local viral environments. Lots of work needs to be done looking at viral virulence, viral subtypes and how our practices impact virulence and distributing viral subtypes around. This needs to be at the forefront of discussion not an afterthought.

So it takes a long term scientific view to put the pieces in place for long term bee health. We are just beginning to see arguments for it.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

msl said:


> _ imagine if you tried to breed dogs by letting them have run of the neighborhood while in heat._ .


This is probably the biggest hurdle for most beeks across the country. They just don't have the resources or control to make reliable progress in many cases.

There are likely far too many variables - regions, weather, influx of XYZ genetics, and on and on, to hope for a single solution without some "outside" help.

That said, strong resistance to mite viruses in the (now Canadian/Danish) Buckfast line - something they've been selectively working on in Europe for decades - has been observed here. Once they open cross, the resistance declines. Continuing to pump those BF genetics into my locale seems a reasonable "lazy man's" approach. 

Our feeble attempts should still be applauded.

I suspect mother nature will eventually step in - there's just to great of a vacuum begging to be filled. The bees will find a way. Have some faith...

.


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## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

FWIW, there is a queen rearing group here in the Pacific NW. One of their goals is producing local hardy (mite resistant?!) queens. The group recently acquired an instrumental insemination machine. 

https://m.facebook.com/pg/Northwest.queen.rearing/about/?ref=page_internal&mt_nav=1

From their website: 

MISSION
The Pacific Northwest Queen Rearing Club provides assistance and support for the growing number of northwest queen breeders, that are dedicated to providing acclimatized, northwest hardy, and survivor stock queens and honey bees to the beekeeping industry.

To build a network of queen breeders who will contribute queens, breeding knowledge, and goodwill, benefitting other PNWQRC members, and the bee industry.


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## CrazyTalk (Jan 27, 2015)

hillbeekeeper said:


> The hurdle? Getting enough beekeepers to agree to the same ideas and the same protocols. That is the first and last problem.


Yeah, this is pretty much the whole thing. 


Bees aren't like other livestock where you can control breeding - they generally breed off your property, out of your control, and if your neighbor's bees are a mess, you're not going to make meaningful gains unless you start replacing his queens.


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## jdb5949 (Oct 13, 2004)

CrazyTalk said:


> Yeah, this is pretty much the whole thing.
> 
> 
> Bees aren't like other livestock where you can control breeding - they generally breed off your property, out of your control, and if your neighbor's bees are a mess, you're not going to make meaningful gains unless you start replacing his queens.


And we can replace his queens even when he buys new queens every year. Our drones will mate with his virgin queens when the bees supercede the bought queens.

Constant and careful husbandry will help to reduce the effect of all those "dogs having the run of the neighborhood while in heat".

I am talking about detailed and skilled husbandry. Look how quickly Enjambes or Lauri developed gentle, productive and prolific bees in only a few years.
.


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## Earthboy (May 16, 2007)

While we are on this topic, here is an interesting article published on Bee-L a while ago. Guess how many responses did this thread get? Zero. Here is the url:http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1704&L=BEE-L&P=43349

"The role of inappropriate human action in the spread of pathogens and the resulting high numbers of colony losses needs to be brought into the fore of management and policy decisions if we are to reduce colony losses to acceptable levels."


>In a research essay to be published this week in the Entomological Society of America's Journal of Economic Entomology, Robert Owen argues that human activity is a key driver in the spread of pathogens afflicting the European honey bee (Apis mellifera)--the species primarily responsible for pollination and honey production around the world--and recommends a series of collective actions necessary to stem their spread. While some research seeks a "magic bullet" solution to honeybee maladies such as Colony Collapse Disorder, "many of the problems are caused by human action and can only be mitigated by changes in human behavior," Owen says.

-Regular, large-scale, and loosely regulated movement of bee colonies for commercial pollination. (For instance, in February 2016 alone, of the 2.66 million managed bee colonies in the United States, 1.8 million were transported to California for almond crop pollination.).

-Carelessness in the application of integrated pest management principles leading to overuse of pesticides and antibiotics, resulting in increased resistance to them among honey bee parasites and pathogens such as the Varroa destructor mite and the American Foul Brood bacterium (Paenibacillus larvae),

-The international trade in honey bees and honey bee products that has enabled the global spread of pathogens such as Varroa destructor, tracheal mite (Acarapis woodi), Nosema cerana, Small Hive Beetle (Aethina tumida ), and the fungal disease chalkbrood (Ascosphaera apis).

-Lack of skill or dedication among hobbyist beekeepers to adequately inspect and manage colonies for disease.

Owen offers several suggestions for changes in human behavior to improve honey bee health, including:

-Stronger regulation both of global transport of honey bees and bee products and of migratory beekeeping practices within countries for commercial pollination.

-Greater adherence to integrated pest management practices among both commercial and hobbyist beekeepers.

-Increased education of beekeepers on pathogen management (perhaps requiring such education for registration as a beekeeper).

-Deeper support networks for hobby beekeepers, aided by scientists, beekeeping associations, and government.

>Owen is author of The Australian Beekeeping Handbook, owner of a beekeeping supply company, and a Ph.D. candidate at the Centre of Excellence for Biosecurity Risk Analysis (CEBRA) at the University of Melbourne.

Earthboy

https://www.facebook.com/YSKHoney/


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## appalachianoutdoors (May 16, 2015)

I hate to jump on bandwagons, but if everyone quit treating for mites, we all would have a drop in colony numbers and what's left would be the mite tolerant bees. Until everyone collectively quits treating, then the problem will persist.


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## Earthboy (May 16, 2007)

appalachianoutdoors said:


> I hate to jump on bandwagons, but if everyone quit treating for mites, we all would have a drop in colony numbers and what's left would be the mite tolerant bees. Until everyone collectively quits treating, then the problem will persist.


Even if there are mite-resistant stocks out there, no self-respecting commercial outfit will risk the *profit margin* by not treating, however. In turn, by treating, they support the big pharma, and the treadmill and the machinery of treatment business will keep turning, as most pathogens become resistant, MRSA being a good example of antibiotic abuse.


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## appalachianoutdoors (May 16, 2015)

And as long as profit margins are our major concern in the debate of treating or not treating, then the mites will continue to be a problem. BTW, I still treat, but I understand it's not in the best interest of making the bees more mite tolerant.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

here's a link to the owen article:

https://academic.oup.com/jee/articl...ion-in-the-Spread-of-Honey-Bee?searchresult=1

it's new to me, thanks for posting it.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

good stuff, with some very good links that i didn't have


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Dear Santa, 

Could you bring me some mite-resistant Apis Melifera for Christmas please?
Make them where they won't supercede
Cross Breed
and lose the resistance.

Could you also make them gentle and where they make hundreds of pounds of honey per year?

Thank you Santa and I'll be eagerly waiting come Christmas time. 

Your dearest friend,
Aunt Betty


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Betty - I appreciate the whimsical way you wrote out the wish list. Thank you.

My concern at present, is that certain breeders let the public think this is what they were buying. People bought in, found out the hard way that the hype was just that. And now TF is written off by many as a "been there, done that." That's why I've been focusing on the money angle.

Let's also bust the myth that all commercial beekeepers are making barrels of money. Some are just hanging on the best way they can figure out. Some make out well, but not all. They are farmers.


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## tpope (Mar 1, 2015)

I would love to help... What can I do?


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## The Evil Chip (May 19, 2012)

I don't think its all that necessary. The bees that we have right now have some level of tolerance for mites, otherwise they'd be dead. I think that slowly but surely some level of tolerance has evolved and will continue to for bees that are open mated with whatever local mutts are out there. I've also noticed that a lot of swarms with teeny tiny bees are being caught of late. To me that indicates that they're probably feral. Again, bees without some level of mite tolerance aren't going to make it to overwinter and swarm. So, despite all our interventions, bees are managing to survive anyway.


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## bentonkb (May 24, 2016)

I live in an area that doesn't have a lot of commercial beeks and few, if any, migratory operations. The local ferals are mite tolerant and docile enough to handle. The local bee club is very active with 30 or so people showing up for monthly meetings, a beekeeping class, mentoring program, etc. 

It seems like a perfect situation for the development of a local, resistant strain, but get this: the club, or its members, are responsible for trucking in massive trailer loads of packages from GA each spring. I'm not sure how to go about reversing that trend.


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

If you have a large amount of ferals I'd casually make the statement that anybody who buy bees is a lazy idiot. The show them how to get free bees, its really not that hard with a potatoes amount of effort.


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## friendlywithbears (Feb 6, 2017)

It seems to me that look at mite resistance and TF as purely genetic is an incredibly myopic view of the world.

There is so much more to success of bees, whether feral or captive, than their genetic line. To me the solution requires decentralized, localized action and understanding of management techniques, hive and comb structure, and survival stock. A successfully resistant line of bees in one location may not survive another, and a resistant line certainly would have issue being brought into a yard that is managed against their nature.

Maybe this is just because I recently re-read Michael Bush, who outlines in multiple ways capturing and rotating in local feral survivor stock, regressing to natural cell sizes, and finding and maintaining natural comb spacing in the brood nest.


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## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

bentonkb said:


> I'm not sure how to go about reversing that trend.


If you could somehow persuade them to consider things from a sustainability point of view you may have some success. The selling points are compelling, i.e. why buy packages when you can produce your own nucs? Here is a good video from MP on this subject.

https://youtu.be/nznzpiWEI8A


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

bentonkb said:


> I'm not sure how to go about reversing that trend.


Start selling local packages. One of the reasons people buy out of state packages is no one is selling locally.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> Start selling local packages. One of the reasons people buy out of state packages is no one is selling locally.


 or overwintered nucs!


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Fusion_power said:


> or overwintered nucs!


Or both.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

dtrooster said:


> If you have a large amount of ferals I'd casually make the statement that anybody who buy bees is a lazy idiot.


 Promoting ferals is a whimsical fairy tale in my experience. I quite wasting my time, effort and resources on them years ago. All they have ever been good for is maybe drawing out some comb.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Colobee said:


> Promoting ferals is a whimsical fairy tale in my experience. I quite wasting my time, effort and resources on them years ago. All they have ever been good for is maybe drawing out some comb.


Are the feral bees where you are genetically different than your managed bees?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

What you will need?: Because beekeeping, like farming, is all local!
Gather consensus with beekeepers on the same topic--to breed local resistant bees! Outline a flowchart first--what, how, when and where.
Find cheap local materials for the I.I. process--to keep those commercial packages from contaminating your local virgins.
Establish isolated local mating stations--to keep DCAs more pure with MR (mite resistant) local drones.
Select and trade breeders and F1s among local beekeepers--they better have resistant built in.
Keep records of the mite resistant queens bought in from different region of the country--this will serve as a future queen source reference. Not all claimed will have resistance built in bees even from reputable queen breeding company.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> What would it take to put together a network of beekeepers to breed mite resistant bees adapted to your region? How would you ensure the stock is disseminated widely within that region?


It would need action, not discussions.

I already did this starting a forum.
Our group now has 4 local members and 3 in distance but near enough to drive to.

Don´t talk. Try and take action. It need some time though. Forget the clubs and lovers of discussing failures.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Nordak said:


> Start selling local packages. One of the reasons people buy out of state packages is no one is selling locally.


No one sells local packages in New England that I know of. The way to go up here is to overwinter nucleus colonies, started in June/July.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

SiWolKe said:


> It would need action, not discussions.
> Don´t talk. Try and take action. It need some time though. Forget the clubs and lovers of discussing failures.


As I said, did that years ago. Spent huge $$. Spent huge time. Nothing happened. 

And, what about the Ohio program? They had a good organization, broke the state up into regions, tried sharing stocks. Nothing happened and the program fell apart.

And, what about the Northeast Bee Breeders started by Bjorn...formerly a member here. What happened? Nothing happened and the program fell apart. 

So, you can see my negative attitude about setting up a local, regional, or national breeding program. That doesn't mean I wouldn't try again, but not until a serious, knowledgable, experienced group of queen breeders showed some degree of commitment to the program.


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## Earthboy (May 16, 2007)

For me, mite-tolerant and resistant has become a non-issue in my stock. 

I do see a few mites here and there, but they have not been as bad as I had them first around the year 2000 when I decided not to treat and let them bee. Naively, I first did treat them with oxalic acid then. But I hated the idea of beekeeping as "an intensive care unit management practice" for an OCD personality. Where is the joy in dispensing this and that medication to the bees when they have done fine for eons? Worse, I abhorred the notion that bees cannot thrive on their own in the woods but only in the bubble the all-knowing man created. That will be a fine world we are inheriting to our kids.

Hence my life-long commitment to rescue feral bees. Let them bee: honeybees will make honey in spite of the meddlesome beekeeper.

Last year, as painful as it is for me to confess here, I lost 35 colonies in all and only one survived from small hive beetles. I lost the threshold to trap or treat my bees against SHB's about which I had known for some time. Up until last year, my bees were able to fend them off. Last year, their infestation was different, out of this world, in Oklahoma. They got into my nucs first around late August and then in October and November, they wiped me out clean, including strong colonies kept in the sun and including four Martha's from Mike, largely because this bug was and is a relatively new kid in town: SHB's came here in America in 1992.

In Africa, as the temperature is mild, bees will abscond as soon as they are overwhelmed by SHB's, their coping strategy, and even my strong colonies would also abscond under pressure, but in November in Oklahoma. What's the use of a large swarm in the tree in November?

This spring I let a failed nuc attract SHB's like a bait box; it was packed with SHB larva. I then froze all the infested frames to maximize their control as it will be impossible to wipe them out. I now also use traps between frames for those few visitors as they are ubiquitous in the south. Nearly all the hives I have now seem to chase and jail those critters, and I am hoping they would do so into the traps.

My point in this dribble is that it takes time for the bees to adapt and then adopt to external and internal pressures eventually, the adaptability being the most important component in the survival of any species. Despite my loss, however, I believe the number one problem in beekeeping is the loss of honeybee habitat, the Bermudafication of idle lands, in particular.

Because of this habitat loss, it is almost impossible to produce comb honey now. If you are a beekeeper, you now must plant bee forage yourself, for you cannot rely on nature any more. My ten acre is loaded with Vitex and Dutch clovers. No, I don't mow while the latter is in bloom. By the time they go into seeding, I then let my horses graze so that they can broadcast their seeds into other pastures.

So, don't treat and start planting.

EB


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Michael Palmer said:


> No one sells local packages in New England that I know of. The way to go up here is to overwinter nucleus colonies, started in June/July.


Yeah, sorry. I forget there's a whole big beekeeping world out there sometimes. 

Bottom line: Sell local. People want your bees.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Riverderwent said:


> Are the feral bees where you are genetically different than your managed bees?


Most of the swarms I speak of are of unknown origin - feral mutts. I've pretty much given up on collecting stray swarms - as I said, time after time they are a waste of time, effort, & resources. I'll make an exception if they are easily gotten & drawn out comb is needed. That's about all they are good for - a season of comb drawing.

Swarms from my own hives are few & far between - BF are renowned for low swarming tendencies. BF colony swarms are usually the exception to the "ferals suck" observations.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> As I said, did that years ago. Spent huge $$. Spent huge time. Nothing happened.
> 
> And, what about the Ohio program? They had a good organization, broke the state up into regions, tried sharing stocks. Nothing happened and the program fell apart.
> 
> ...


Perhaps part of the problem is that people aren't educated about the need to support local genetic diversity and local adapted bees by supporting local bee breeders. I don't hear anything about that in the local bee club here. One bee is as good as another if you treat them. Its leadership at the club level that is missing. 

Maybe with a change in generation, priorities will change.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

If all you want is bees in a box or 2 and a taste of honey, and realy that’s most of the beekeepers out there, swarms aren’t a bad way to go…free bees are free bees… and this years trapping experience is showing me the few years I spent without bees do to lack of $$$ and swarm calls was my own fault. 



Nordak said:


> Or both.


yes I think the key and the issue here is local production… 
Nucs, over wintered nucs, queens, packages.. but all that takes some one making queens..
and, the point I have argued before… teaching puling a summer nuc to over winter as a year 1 skill/task not some advanced beekeeping stuff, people believe what you teach them 
the more people off the (non local) package bee tread mill the more a local/regional stock will flourish. 

my thoughts
drop the TF brand, its tarnished, go with “Locally adapted Mite resistant stock” 
I have run in to 4th year beekeepers scared of the ideal of a split, Local sustainability needs to be taught at a base level 

Start from the bottom up, not the top down … I rember a MP video where he is talking about doing a talk at a bee meeting and the old crustys were in the back grumbling about how nucs won’t over winter in their area and wide eyed noobs were eating it up… next time he came back threw the crustys were siting in the front with note books be cause it worked for the noobs

He who teaches wins-Become a teacher or get involved with those that do
Imagine if new beeks were taught that pulling a summer nuc was standard management for a 1st year and someone was making local cells avabuly for $5-10, they were part of your beginner class fee, show up here july 10th (or whatever local date ) to pick up yours, the nuc boxes are for sale on your way out. 

Honestly no one does stuff “out of the goodness of their heart” for very long, they burn out, so ya got to grease the skids. This way the cell producers(s) are fairly compensated for minimal labor/resources(using simple starter finishers) , the local shop can get on board as this means an additional sale to a 1st years, that hopefully means a bigger wood wear purchase come spring, more profit to them then brokering the sale of a replacement package. and the teacher can run a july 10 "art of the nuc" class for new or timid that wanted a refresher and make more $$ as well.

The queens raised from the cells don’t need to prefect, or bomb proof TF stock as they are not being sold as such. They just need to be better than the queens in package bees, and in a lot of places that shouldn’t be too hard. 
Now you have set up a culture based on local and sustainable beekeeping, keep that up for a few years and you will change the beekeeping landscape in your area.

From there focuses on increased mite resistance and getting people involved, sure, but really getting the area to turn over to local adapted stock is huge step in the right direction as your stopping the intrusion of poor gentinicks in to the area to aid that breeding program. 

And if the students are taught to do rolls and only treat if needed (sold as Resistance stock, not TF) you have created an army out there checking for resistance, one that can tell you "hey, I think we have something here, come take some grafts form this stock "


> a beekeeper with only one hive might be the one with the biggest ‘pot of gold’–everyone should screen their hives for mite resistance, no matter how small they are.”


-John Kefuss

This whole processes can be driven by one or two people in an area choosing to make cells available and doing a little bit of out reach to the other stakeholders. In many cases (as MP notes) groups fail, individuals succeed.

edit


> Perhaps part of the problem is that people aren't educated about the need to support local genetic diversity and local adapted bees by supporting local bee breeders.


spot on


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## ch.cool (Aug 22, 2012)

Michael Palmer said:


> As I said, did that years ago. Spent huge $$. Spent huge time. Nothing happened.
> 
> And, what about the Ohio program? They had a good organization, broke the state up into regions, tried sharing stocks. Nothing happened and the program fell apart.
> 
> ...


We the Maumee Valley Beeks just had Dwight Wells as guest speaker and I don't know what program you are talking about, but the "heartland honey bee breeder association" is working hard on their resistant stock in co-op with Purdue University and the Try-State beekeepers. 

Christian


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Illinois has a little-known group of queen breeders. I've not dug into it very far other than finding a list of them online. 

My own apiary is diverse with bees I've caught or cutout from several different towns around east central Illinois. Nature does the sorting. 
Should post some pictures of frames from a few of my best babies. Solid.
There are very good bees right in your own neighborhood I bet.


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## Bob Anderson (Jun 13, 2014)

Indiana also has the IQBA - Indiana Queen Breeders Association - which is also associated with Purdue University. So there are groups out there. Time will tell whether or not they can be successful.


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

> Most of the swarms I speak of are of unknown origin - feral mutts. I've pretty much given up on collecting stray swarms - as I said, time after time they are a waste of time, effort, & resources. I'll make an exception if they are easily gotten & drawn out comb is needed. That's about all they are good for - a season of comb drawing.


 feel bad for you. Colorado must only be good for the skiing and smoke


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Don't feel bad for me. I don't smoke, or do the slope dope. The elk hunting and fishing, on the other hand, is fabulous - if you know where to go.

My BF production hives have averaged 200 lbs, per, for the last two years. 100-150/per, over the decades. Well worth the cost of replacement queens every 2-3 years. 

It's probably just dumb luck - nothing to do with superior genetics or not wasting time & resources on feral mutts.

Wait, I've proven that to myself, time, after time, after time, after time...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

ch.cool said:


> We the Maumee Valley Beeks just had Dwight Wells as guest speaker and I don't know what program you are talking about, but the "heartland honey bee breeder association" is working hard on their resistant stock in co-op with Purdue University and the Try-State beekeepers.
> 
> Christian


Something years before that. But it's great that Dwight and others are trying to propagate healthy bees. I know Dwight, and think he's working very diligently on his breeding program. I'm sure he can come up with some very good stocks. But to take that stock and take it out of his management almost it insures it will fall apart. This has ben going on forever. A beekeeper has stock that has been propagated over many years, and is so good for that beekeeper in his area under his management. The beekeeper passes and the stock is gone. Or it is shipped far and wide but is lost through out-crossing with inferior stock. It has happened so often that the list is way long.


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

> The elk hunting and fishing, on the other hand, is fabulous - if you know where to go.


i forgot about that, always wanted to make that trip:thumbsup:


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Colobee said:


> My BF production hives have averaged 200 lbs, per, for the last two years. 100-150/per, over the decades. Well worth the cost of replacement queens every 2-3 years.
> 
> It's probably just dumb luck - nothing to do with superior genetics or not wasting time & resources on feral mutts.


The genetics of the feral bees in your area must be quite different than the genetics of your commercial bees. To me, that is interesting. I don't know how many hives you have. If quite a few, I'm surprised that the genetic footprint of commercial bees on the feral mutts where you are is not greater. Some folks say that they cannot raise treatment free bees because of the effect that area beekeepers have on local genetics.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> drop the TF brand, its tarnished, go with “Locally adapted Mite resistant stock”


never thought of that! very very good idea msl.

"locally more adapted and more mite tolerant or resistant stock"...could be a speaking topic in bee club and start a discussion.

combined with IPM...very good! this is the future!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Can't you see....I'm gathering mite resistant stocks for the last 2 years into my apiary. Planted for them four seasons--veggies, flowers, and trees.
Control the mite population to allow the bees to grow first. Heading into the future is the I.I. process and finding new local beekeepers to form our own SRS group.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Riverderwent said:


> The genetics of the feral bees in your area must be quite different than the genetics of your commercial bees.


I'd put that the other way around, but it's the same point. The _very_ local "ferals" ( within a few miles) almost certainly have some BF genetics after decades of drone promotion from my own hives. Beyond that, the ferals are likely little different from ferals everywhere. The cards are just stacked against them. Like running a donkey in the Kentucky Derby.

The few swarms found issuing from my own hives tend to be fairly "good", but they are rare. No swarms from outside a 2-3 mile radius have ever been more than a disappointing "pet project". They got no special treatment, or mistreatment. On occasion they made a little crop. On occasion they survived the following winter. That's why they are no longer pursued. As said repeatedly, there is so little return on the time, effort & resources that it is better to focus on the bees that outproduce them, year after year.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> it is better to focus on the bees that outproduce them, year after year.


 This is the crux of the matter.

1. Commercial beekeepers have genetics that meet their operational needs and don't want to give them up

2. Hobbyist and sideliner beekeepers want to maintain production and won't compromise for lower production even though they gain mite resistance

3. Beginners have very little knowledge of bees to start with and mostly wind up purchasing susceptible genetics

4. There is a strong perception that all mite resistant bees have serious flaws that prevent use in commercial operations.

5. For the beekeepers who want to develop mite resistance, there is a huge "not enough time in the day" barrier to doing the hard work involved in soft bond.

6. Beekeepers like me using mite resistance instead of treatments have few choices for mite resistant queens.

7. Which brings us back where we started, lots of beekeepers want mite resistant queens but nobody has time and chutzpa to breed them.


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## JeronimoJC (Jul 21, 2016)

I hope you are wrong on item 2. I personally care little about honey. The act of beekeeping and seeing colonies thrive is exciting enough for me. 

As for item 7, would it help to some extent if some of these busy keepers left a few small hives alone just to promote swarms and drones? That would take no additional time.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Dar has a very realistic view on this.

Item 7, speaking of the old world, there are some who have the chuzpa. Juhani, Alois or Erik or others for sure.
But the problem of location impact is still there.

The beginners or the seasoned beekeepers who remember the time before treating and are retired are the open minded ones.

The tf must become a trend like vegan. Here permaculture ( not necessarily vegan) is a trend just starting with the young generation. After a decade of exploitation in jobs and bad health because of processed food the "work-life balance" is an important topic and "back to nature and downshifting of consumption " a therapy agains stress factors.

These people don´t want to treat any livestock, but they don´t know what will happen if not.
To help them and be honest about our experience can open their eyes. The result is a selection of beekeepers who decide their path, hopefully many small beekeepers, mostly urban, mostly newbies, mostly enthusiasts and optimists, to start a new strategy.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Michael Palmer said:


> So, you can see my negative attitude about setting up a local, regional, or national breeding program. That doesn't mean I wouldn't try again, but not until a serious, knowledgable, experienced group of queen breeders showed some degree of commitment to the program.



I'm in the same camp as Michael. I do the best I can, but I've found that I cannot rely upon others in my area to carry their weight. The effort seems to quickly converge to a single person carrying the entire project. I know this because I've done it. Over the past few years, I'm operating solo and doing the best I can to keep a strong line and provide as many queens and cells to my local area ..and work a full-time job. I've mentioned in the past that I would be willing to share stock with other (serious and documented) producers and specifically targeted Squarepeg and Fusion in that offer. SP replied that he's not at the point where he's distributing stock (or something similar - SP forgive my poor memory if I've misrepresented you). My point here is not to call out any one person, but to cast light on difficulty coordinating even local efforts, not to mention developing a larger community. Just so you all know, I'm definitely trying to propagate tolerant bees locally. So far this season I've sold over 80 queen cells from my strongest hives to my local community. I don't have the answer to this quest, but I also believe that casting dispersion on those who buy dependent bees or who treat is really not helpful. Honestly, when I read the opening post I was very hopeful that maybe ***something*** could be discussed to further the cause, but regretfully I see that its the same kind of chatter we find in many of the threads here.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Backyard beekeepers letting their hives die from mites are *not* in any shape or form selectively breeding.
They are simply re-entering the feral background genetics.
There is a lot of happy talk about "breeding survivor bees", but this is not what the science indicates what happens. Colony death has multiple causes, and the stochastic, random nature of these deaths overwhelms the survival advantage of a mite resistance strain. The longer the bees stay in a backyard, the more they come to resemble the standard bee.

Selective breeding requires making consistent selections from hundreds of candidates based on an objective criteria. Backyard breeders basing a selection on what is alive come springtime among their handful of hives are deluding themselves pure and simple. Unfortunately, the internet echo chamber talks up their delusion as if it is cutting edge genetics.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

With the arrival of varroa, feral honey bee populations where I am declined but have now rebounded. This area is not alone. As noted (literally, as in, "footnoted") in "Museum samples reveal rapid evolution by wild honey bees exposed to a novel parasite," A. Mikheyev _et al_, https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms8991 (2015), honey bees faced "massive die-offs" and "crashes coincident with the arrival of V. _destructor_, followed by periods of recovery" based on "immigration of more resistant bees" and "selection of relic bees". In other words, weak bees died and stronger bees moved in or expanded to take their spot in the buffet line.

Where I am, selecting survivors for survival from those recovered populations is not too random to be effective. It's more like riding a wave than fighting the tide. Varroa aren't the only cause of colony loss here, but unless the beekeeper is over harvesting honey or monkeying around in the hives rolling queens on a regular basis, varroa is still, if not the sole cause, at least a substantial contributing factor in many hive losses. 

Where many colonies survive and a few die, one may occasionally lose a resistant queen to a non-varroa cause. But compare that to the number of resistant queens that would stochasticly be lost in a highly selective situation where only a few queens out of many are selected for breeding. Were it not for the "virulence" of varroa, I would be more concerned about random survival of weak bees than random collapse of strong ones. As it is though, this is still no country for weak bees when it comes to varroa. As stated in "Urbanization Increases Pathogen Pressure on Feral and Managed Honey Bees," by E. Youngsteadt et al., http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0142031, "Feral colonies, with lower disease burdens and stronger immune responses, may illuminate ways to improve honey bee management."


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> I was very hopeful that maybe ***something*** could be discussed to further the cause


 Part of the reason I started this thread was to glean out a few beekeepers serious enough to do the job. I have 9 on my list so far. Not all of them have posted in this thread.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Fusion_power said:


> Part of the reason I started this thread was to glean out a few beekeepers serious enough to do the job. I have 9 on my list so far. Not all of them have posted in this thread.


When I first glanced through your post, my mind read it as "None of them have posted in this thread." I thought it was funny.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I don't know if this is serious enough or not. Just doing this task to keep the mite fighting genes going here. And at the same time
incorporating compatible bees to complement my bee selection. Starting from a small scale at first, if done right, can be expanded
regionally, one area at a time with similar climate and bee environment. Seeing my strategy work has been an eye opener for me this
year while designing more complex little bee experiment to learn more. By the way, tackling this mite issue cannot rely on just genetics alone. There are other factors that needed to be address first before you'll have a successful bee operation. They all complement each others so that the bees can live and thrive, locally. Three years into this topic and I'm still learning at the early stage of trying to beat the mite cycles.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Personally I'm just too curious not to explore mite and virus resistance. To not select one way or another, experimenting and trying to find out what success actually looks like would be just going through the motions. Here in BC there are some breeders who take varroa seriously, and some of them are interested in what I'm doing and my small successes. Hopefully long term I can add to the process. Meanwhile the task of understanding why some bees succeed and others don't is ongoing. The more we know, the less we know.


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## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

Fusion_power said:


> Part of the reason I started this thread was to glean out a few beekeepers serious enough to do the job. I have 9 on my list so far. Not all of them have posted in this thread.


I would gladly join in but I'm a newbie and don't have any resources to speak of at this time. 
I'd hope to be in a position to join in in the future. 

That said, if there was anyone in my area (or not) that wanted to use my yard and bees as a test bed I'd be willing.

I plan to re-queen my treated queens anyway.


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## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

didn't mean to kill the thread back in May but... my offer still stands. I'll gladly buy them from you.
I have 60 or so drawn out frames. all medium.
received 20 permacomb frames @ Christmas
I have a NUC that I won and 1 package coming 3/31 (from www.vidaliabees.com GA) and they are definitely not TF.
I've got a good bit of wooden-ware


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## sebashtionh (Apr 6, 2016)

I am looking to start a breading program here in central Florida. I produce and sell queens already, but got interested in the genetics side and jumped in with both feet got an II set up went to Purdue for their courses on II. besides varroa we have the wonderfully playful mean bees here..... so I would like to do what the prude guys and the HHBA guys like Dwight are doing down here, the problem I run into is talking genetics and going that that route there are not a lot interested in it, or they don't have time to try.

would love to be able to swap genetics, breed, do the crosses to have a locally adapted tolerant stock to provide here. but as someone already said it is looking like it is going to be a one man show.......


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## jcase (Jul 30, 2016)

sebashtionh said:


> I am looking to start a breading program here in central Florida. I produce and sell queens already, but got interested in the genetics side and jumped in with both feet got an II set up went to Purdue for their courses on II. besides varroa we have the wonderfully playful mean bees here..... so I would like to do what the prude guys and the HHBA guys like Dwight are doing down here, the problem I run into is talking genetics and going that that route there are not a lot interested in it, or they don't have time to try.
> 
> would love to be able to swap genetics, breed, do the crosses to have a locally adapted tolerant stock to provide here. but as someone already said it is looking like it is going to be a one man show.......


I got into ii for the same reason, the genetics. I guess I'm lucky here, but I've found a lot of people interested in it. "filetypedf" on google will be your friend, lots of papers on the subject out there, some great, some oddly bad (eg "drones control the gentleness of the hive" bs).


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

But to take that stock and take it out of his management almost it insures it will fall apart. This has ben going on forever. A beekeeper has stock that has been propagated over many years, and is so good for that beekeeper in his area under his management. The beekeeper passes and the stock is gone. Or it is shipped far and wide but is lost through out-crossing with inferior stock. It has happened so often that the list is way long. 

Aye there is the rub! I have been toying with resistence and buy purportedly resistant stock and isolate them in a wheat desert that is marginal enough beekeeping territory that no commercial beekeeper has found it worth taking away from me. 

Reading Randy Oliver, I see that what I have been doing is absolutely the wrong way to isolate resistance. So I think this years infusion of Bill Carpenters mite biters will probably be my last introduction of new blood. It may be the last year anyone can get Bills stock without buying the operation! He is getting where we are all going and that is inability to ply this trade. 

I am less than a dozen years behind Bill, so as Mr Palmer so ably stated in my quote of him above, It appears any success I may have is headed to the genetic scrap heap. I am surrounded by commercial bees coming in by the tens of thousands of colonies. Starry eyed beginners buying Russians for their supposed wintering abilities and casting swarms that will indeed staple your socks to your legs. I do not bring swarms to my little desert bee hideout for that reason! 

I am just yammering, bottom line is we are doing this for our own edification and fulfillment. Mother nature casts dice by the billions each year and the numbers on ours are not likely to be the ones even counted. Those of you with a 'Holler' full of bee gums full of resistant bees that survived the varroa holocaust sit in the catsbird seat and may indeed count yourself as genius because your grand dad settled there in 1868. The bees that make the difference may indeed come out of your notch but it won't be because of you. 

But its fun trying.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

If I could add to Aunt Betty's Christmas list, I would ask for regionalized II programs. II programs could eliminate, for at least one generation, the open mating pitfall poised to rain failure on the backyard or sideline beekeeper. 

I envision regional entities manned by volunteers and trained by experts. The volunteers maintain a virgin queen pipeline and get preferred sperm from specialized sources, then do the II. These queens could be affordable and effective in infusing the feral gene pool to produce honey bees that can _live_ with the mites. 

Regional II suppliers could take measured steps in the right direction, as it is now, we are each going in random directions with fits and starts, getting nowhere fast. JMO


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