# Hive design for Seeley's Darwinian Beekeeping



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I'd use insulation foam rather than extra thick wood just to make it easier to handle. One inch of foam equals R-5, so two inches would be more than ample. You could make a thin outer cover of plywood panels to cover the foam, but you could also paint the foam to protect it from UV.

Truthfully, I guess I don't "get" the point of this idea. When I first read about it I thought it was interesting and useful as a thought experiment, but now it seems to have taken on a life and become a thing in its own right.

And a highly seductive thing, too, I predict. Appealing to people (not, you Andrew, of course) who just want to "help the poor threatened bees" and are not interested in learning the underlying animal husbandry or doing the considerable work of caring for them. So we will wind up with archipelagos of small colonies teetering on disaster, before blinking out and spreading their pests and diseases. Is this a good idea, or not, for an exotic species to an area (North America)? Is this a humane way to care for livestock?

Up to this point, the number of colonies living in this condition has been limited by the number of available cavities. But if we start artificially creating these cavities, the density will increase exponentially. Who wouldn't want one just as a garden accessory?

In some places horses run free and it's a wonder to watch them. But does that mean it would be a good idea for people to turn their horses out and let them wander around? Of course, not.

I enormously admire Tom Seeley's writing and work (and BTW, he'll be the keynoter at Betterbee's Field Day this year; see www.betterbee.com for details). I wonder if he was suggesting people try this or was sharing observations about how some feral bees live with the goal of re-thinking some of the received wisdom that conventional beekeeping has built up.

Just my thoughts. 

Nancy


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Great idea, Andrew.



enjambres said:


> Is this a humane way to care for livestock?
> 
> Who wouldn't want one just as a garden accessory?
> 
> Nancy


Yes! More humane than what is done to them right now in the care of beekeepers! Change them to ferals, do!

I already have them as a garden accessory. So nice! Don´t be afraid for them, Nancy, I help them along with those bad mites. Step by step until I see if they are able to survive on their own and how so.

I even protect my neighbor beekeeper from them, I promise. No mite bomb set free!


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Like enj. said, go with the foam. Will make the hive lighter and better insulated. I'm considering a similar setup myself in the future for a fairly remote outyard. I was thinking a longer two-deep configuration might be a good option. Could keep the standard deep frames making them interchangeable with standard gear. I haven't decided exactly what route I'm going to go. Keep us updated. I'm interested in seeing your design.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I'm with enjambres - why?


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Thanks for the suggestions - the actual hive is one I'll put together over the coming summer and place during swarm season next year - since it will start life with a swarm.

Why is an interesting question. I have not thought about the question too deeply at this point; I think it comes down to perspective. Seeley studies bees an ecologist. Most other academic bee people are entomologists. I wonder at times just how unsustainable current commercial practices are, and if, bees left to their own devices will find equilibrium, not just with mites, but other pollinators as well. (In other words, ought the commercial Honey bee industry be turned on its head?) I'm wondering too if the key to TF success in my area, is spread out small colonies, that swarm as they see fit.

I have no interest in creating mite bombs. In fact too many of my own colonies were taken out last year by collapsing colonies within flying range, long after I'd thought I'd dealt with mites for the final time in September of last year. I did not anticipate warm weather until the middle of December.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

My newest monster. 1 1/2" thick cedar, superable with standard Lang equipment. Natural comb jumbo broodnest area. 

I built it 2 years ago and finally found the time to load it with bees. The white 8 frame double deep to the left was overwintered under a shed roof so I moves the big hive in it's place and loaded the frames where they were already oriented. I wanted the OB hive protected from the rain and wanted it under the shed. 











They were a little confused at first, then figured out where the frames were

























So far, comb building is straight.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Andrew good luck with your new hive it should be interesting especially if it survive's !!! we will all be scratching are heads !! considering your area and the mites your other hives have it will be a long shot . I had a mess one year with ants getting inside the piece of insulation board I had in my top covers they were burrowing in to it and hauling pieces out I can't imagine the mess you could have with it around the whole hive but I'm sure you could make it work .


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## SBky (May 7, 2017)

Hello, new guy around here. Been a long time lurker. Andrew, you may want to research the Layens hive. It is a one box horizontal hive with really thick walls and deep frames. Just something I have read about.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I have the de Layens book and am slowly making my way through it. I know Tom wrote a cover blurb for Keeping Bees With a Smile.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Jumbo Dadant Hive bodies and supers approach what you are thinking of. The boxes are 12 frames wide, making them square, almost. The frames are as deep as they are long, making them square. I think that should fit your bill.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

enjambres said:


> I'd use insulation foam rather than extra thick wood just to make it easier to handle. One inch of foam equals R-5, so two inches would be more than ample. You could make a thin outer cover of plywood panels to cover the foam, but you could also paint the foam to protect it from UV.
> 
> Truthfully, I guess I don't "get" the point of this idea. When I first read about it I thought it was interesting and useful as a thought experiment, but now it seems to have taken on a life and become a thing in its own right.
> 
> ...


I think its the beekeepers who are doing the best job at spreading diseases and pests. We've even mastered intercontinental spread of these threats. This all done under the guise of "scientific" "modern", beekeeping.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I'm of the opinion that Seeley is on the wrong track with his small hives theory. The purpose of the small hive is to induce the bees to swarm repeatedly. This has major negative consequences for honey production.

Re the Layens hive, read this thread for some good commentary. I would not use them because of the labor they require.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?327565


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Fusion - thanks for the link to the thread. I read it with interest, I will certainly consider the square deep Dadant. Did you see the part on my original post here I said, "I don't plan to collect surplus honey from this hive"?

I continue to work at understanding what Seeley is up to. The frequent swarming and brood breaks seem part of disease resistance. I get the feeling he is saying, this technique is ok for hobbyists but not at all ok for commercial honey production.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Fusion_power said:


> This has major negative consequences for honey production.


it does
Seeley's point is that unnaturally large hives have major negative consequences on the bees health, and there are a LOT of beekeepers who would be happy with a hive or 2 in the backyard, a modest harvest, and treatment free bees that are alive. Max honey production is not the gole of everyone 
pop back a few hundred years and we see the range of skeps is given as .5-1.25 bushels (18-41L ) _W White - ‎1771, A Complete Guide to the Mystery and Management of Bees_
funny how that 40(ish)L keeps poping up.

spit balling it I would say a double deep is too big, northern skeps were smaller not bigger, so they could fill out and swarm in time with a short growing season.

what I don't get is Seeley pushing using standard equipment... running a Top bar, or Warre would seem better suited as buying an extractor for such little work would seem that crush and strain would be better.... Ie your whole harvest can be crushed in a single bucket...
a triple stack of 5F nucs would also seem a better way to achieve the volume and have interchangeability


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

A strong split overwintered filled my double deep dadant square arrangement without any problems last year if flow was good enough to draw comb. 
That was up to 16 brood combs after spring expansion( after a mild winter without much mite impact). The average of numbers of brood frames in late summer or before winter was 5-8. That left 4 combs or more later filled with honey and the domes, enough food for winter in our zone. So one square deep is just the right space for the bees if they are splitted or should swarm which they would have done without the use of two deeps.

Winter is much longer here than with dar, so the bees need more stores. This means without the expansion of putting a deep or other box on top no honey surplus to harvest.
The gap between the boxes and the space of double deep over winter was a problem.

Since I left a deep completely filled with honey on top they did not make honey domes and were isolated from stores by the gap. This would not have happened with one bigger broodbox or with me harvesting 2/3 of the stores and taking away the top box before winter arrangements of the bees if flow was still on.

So allowing the bees a natural arrangement with a swarming every season and no harvesting the dadant one deep square is just the right size in my locale.
With a honey producing race a medium on top could bring some surplus for a hobbyist.

With a honey production the same arrangement must be actively expanded and checkerboarded and arranged with surplus deeps or supers to the beekeepers profit.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Wanting to split every year at least once ( mite management) I planned now to expand with a second deep square dadant box in spring and just take off the top box for my split.
Then go into winter reducing the colonies to one deep.

After my bad experience with too strong a split with queen and so breeding the mites in the queen right split, I decided to do smaller splits with queen, just one up to three brood combs with mixed brood, queen and some nurse bees shaken on. For this I used the top deep and placed the queen split some distance away.

To give the queenless with foragers more space I put a medium under and same on top. Both spaces are not used so far.

But this space was not preventing swarm fever, one of the queenless now swarmed , I believe with virgin queen. 
So I maybe simulated a swarm situation and started this by my managements.

Since I don´t have a problem harvesting no honey I realized this to be an advantage to outbreeding the mites and keeping more healthy bees.Splitting with swarm cells once more next time as an expansion model. So I think of including this kind of management into my beekeeping methods.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Andrew Dewey said:


> I'm thinking about taking a double deep Langstroth hive and covering it with an extra 4" of wood on all sides. The outer cover is going to be a frig and heavy, it may very well be that I figure out a way to hinge it.
> 
> For frames, I'm thinking about a really deep frame that extends for both deep boxes. I don't plan to collect surplus honey from this hive, hence the larger volume, and I am in the north.
> 
> ...


Wooden 4" outer covering is sooo heavy, I would skip that and put some insulation on top where it is more effective. Maybe the hive walls could be 1" or little more.

I would use standard frames, maybe square hive design would be just a bit more natural than 10 frame Langstoth. 

If 40 litres is the most commonly found size of natural cavities, I would ad some volume to give them some storage space. One square deep plus one super and a hole in the lower box to ensure air circulation.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

For the last few winters we've insulated only the 2 sides and back with 1 " foam board, and the top (above inner cover) with 2" Foam, sometimes two pieces, inside a top box, placed above 5lb of dry sugar .

Lost one out of 5 colonies last winter, survivors were split, swarms were caught....we should go into this coming winter with at least 9.

We keep the broodnests in a maximum of 3 mediums, separated by an excluder during summer flows...placing an equal number of 'medium' supers a soon as we see dandelions.

With Seeley's insights and offerings, we're just learning to use excluders 'properly' after many years of just looking at them...hanging in the garage.

We use all mediums, are TF and foundationless since 2007


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> Jumbo Dadant Hive bodies and supers approach what you are thinking of. The boxes are 12 frames wide, making them square, almost. The frames are as deep as they are long, making them square. I think that should fit your bill.


Maybe not. The frames and 11 1/4" deep and about 18" wide.


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## Peter McDowell (Jul 24, 2016)

Andrew, Using rigid foam board will be much lighter and will give a better "R" value that solid wood. Here is a picture of my hive body with 2" rigid foam.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

My TBLLH of 30mm urathane intended as "set and forget" colony. No VM or SHB present.

Bill

-- 
http://tinypic.com/r/odx0p/9


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