# DE Hive



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000367.html is a discussion on the subject.

I have four DE hives (12 deeps and 16 shallows, at least four bottom boards and four vent boxes etc.) and I have several DE vent kits for Lanstroth hives. I like them. There is no down side to the Lanstroth Vent kits except price, but if you're a hobbiest, you'll get your money's worth out of them. The only big down side to the DE hives is standardization. Try to buy a slatted rack for a DE hive, or a screened bottom board, or a hivetop feeder etc.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited December 01, 2003).]


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## BusyBee (Nov 30, 2003)

Thanks for the link Michael, I must have missed that in my browsing.

Standardization is not a problem, I prefer to make my own stuff. Which also makes cost pretty cheap too, since I buy my lumber from an Amish friend.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Yes, but try to make your own bound queen excluder. David sells the plastic kind, but I like the wood bound metal ones.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Actually if you like them, I am TRYING to standardize my equipment and would probably sell you some DE hives already assembled. Obviously I liked them and when I was only going to run four hives for fun, it was the direction I was going, but now I'm going commercial so it's not so practical.

You could come pick them up and we could talk bees.


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## BusyBee (Nov 30, 2003)

I would love to buy some hives from you and sit around and chat about bees...however, I am not sure if it would be cost effective for me to drive all the way out to Nebraska, even though I live on the southern border of Minnesota. It would probably be a 9-10 hour drive for me one way. I suppose you could offer me a deal I couldn't refuse, but I'm sure you'd be better off selling them to someone a little more local.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>It would probably be a 9-10 hour drive for me one way.

I don't know where you are, but I drive up to Pipestone all the time. I always considered it a half a day drive.


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## BusyBee (Nov 30, 2003)

I live right on the MN/IA border, MN side of course.







The town I live in is a tiny little town noone has ever heard of, but if you really want to know its a tiny town called Prosper. Its on US Hwy 52. I find it amusing how the town is called Prosper, but there is nothing here. The town has maybe 20 houses in it. My 9-10 hour was a rough guestimate, I have a wife and two young kids that probably wouldn't let me go alone. Which could make a trip take twice as long. "daddy, I gotta go potty!"


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

According to mapsonus it's 4 1/2 hours from here to Pipestone. But it' 8 1/2 hours to Prosper. You are a lot further East.


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## BusyBee (Nov 30, 2003)

Yeah, but if you ever come this way, feel free to stop in. 

Jon


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## Luke (Sep 8, 2003)

I used one DE hive this past summer. I never had any trouble removing frames from it. They do not get glued in place. That can also be a problem. I like to rest my hive bodies on end to check for queen cells but with the DE hive the frames will all fall out since they are not glued into place. Also, removing supers is more difficult. Although the frames are not glued to each other in the same super they are glued to the ones above and below them. You have to run your hive tool along the length of the hive body to separate them. Otherwise the frames below the super you are lifting off will all start lifting out.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>You have to run your hive tool along the length of the hive body to separate them. Otherwise the frames below the super you are lifting off will all start lifting out.

I have the same problem with PermaComb (in standard medium Langs of course). But, except for the standardization, I do like the DEs and I also love PermaComb. You do have to adjust your methods to match the equipment.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I should point out the CAUSE. The DE frames are very light and very thin. The top bars are also very thin. I don't have one in front of me right now to measure, but it is noticably thinner. The PermaComb basically has cells all the way to the top (and bottom) with no top bar. Studies have shown that bees build less burr comb between the boxes with frames with thicker top bars. The down side to thicker top bars is less comb (meaning less brood and less honey) on a frame in that size box. Also more weight for the frame. Another advantage to the thin top bars with the burr comb, is the queen moves from one box to the next more freely when there is comb connecting the frames from one box to the next. But the downside is you have to cut all that comb to pull the boxes apart.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Has anyone ever attempted to just take a thin piano wire and pull it between the boxes so it cuts them apart before trying to lift? Seems like this would be quicker and cause less damage?


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>Has anyone ever attempted to just take a thin piano wire and pull it between the boxes so it cuts them apart before trying to lift? Seems like this would be quicker and cause less damage?


There you go! Put a wire on a bow saw, hook up a 12 volt battery, and you can slice and dice EVERYTHING in the hive...









[This message has been edited by BULLSEYE BILL (edited December 10, 2003).]


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## John Seets (Jan 9, 2003)

Not that I have any interest in DE hives, I just HAD to ask:

Bill, are you saying you hook up the positive lead of say a car battery to one end of the wire strung bow saw and the negative to the other and it turns red hot so you can cut comb? Incredible? How do you insulate the "wire" from the handle (Haven;t met a bow saw without a metal handle and I have 3 of them). How long does the current last before the battery dies? Considering the current draw, I wouldn't think it would be long. Maybe if you used sufficient guage nichrome wire, it would last longer due to that type wire's internal resistance (which is high). A "regular" wire would suck the amps in no time or burn thru, I would think. (This is the electrical engineer part of me asking).


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

It doesn't have to be a wire - it could be a thin, flat strip of metal, maybe 1/8" wide. On the otherhand, unless it's very taut it would be hard to keep it flat as it is pulled between the boxes. Using either wire or metal strip, I would worry about slicing/dicing some bees and brood. Do the bees connect PC between Langstroth supers to form a continuous comb or is this just a DE hive problem?

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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do the bees connect PC between Langstroth supers to form a continuous comb or is this just a DE hive problem?

They do form a continuous comb with PC. At first I thought this was a problem, but as I use it more I think it's actually an advantage. It's like having one big comb for the queen to lay on. A lot of the things I was worried about with the PC I found were really more good than bad.

Some of it is just getting used to it.

The lack of gluing together of the DE hives is similar. That was David's goal was to keep them from gluing it together. You upset the bees less when you don't have to pop the frames apart, especially in the brood chamber. But then, as you say, you end up tearing up comb that they built between the boxes, so it seems to all be the same amount of disruption anyway. But still the comb running together between boxes seems to work well for the bees.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Do the bees bridge honey supers' combs as well or just brood comb? I'll also review the PC discussion thread for more info. SANTA might get me about 100 frames of PC to try out next spring. THANKS


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

They bridge it all. John Seets says you just go through and break them all lose and stagger them left and right 3/4" of an inch and the bees will clean up the loose honey. Then come back and pick up the supers. I usually use an esacape so it's no more work to move them all aside, put on the escape and then stagger them as you restack them.


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## Kurt Bower (Aug 28, 2002)

Some pretty awesome claims at http://beeworks.com/ModKitdetails.htm 
Is anyone willing to validate the increase in honey production and decrease in swarming by using the D.E. Hive?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

When you're running only four DE hives for four years or so it's hard to say with authority how the same bees would have done in other hives. I think the ventilation does help with the production and the swarming. I think the entrance going the other way makes it easier to work. (This is true of the mod kit, which I have several of, and the DE hives). The DE hives have plastic spacers and the hives are designed so the bees can't get to the end bars to propolize them, so the frames come apart very easily without any popping which, as you've probably observed, upsets the bees.

I've gotten awesome crops from the bees in my DE hives. Whether that is due to the hive, the weather, luck or the Buckfast bees I had in them is hard to say. But I've typically gotten 250 to 300 pounds of honey or more off of a hive.

I think you can add a vent box to the top of a hive and a slatted rack on a Screened Bottom Board and get most, if not all, of the same effect.

To make a vent box, take a medium or shallow super and put two holes 3/4" to 1" on each side and cover them with #8 hardware cloth. Put a couple more holes in the inner cover and cover them with #8 hardware cloth. Put the vent box on top of the inner cover with a lid on top of that and you have a vent box.

The DE Mod kit is very well made, light weight, well designed (the slope of the holes runs any water out the blows in, the two peice top is adjustable for winter and summer etc.) and kind of expensive. I highly recommend them for a hobbiest. They are a bit expensive for a commercial operator.


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## Kurt Bower (Aug 28, 2002)

Michael:
While I understand that the D.E. hives are a little more expensive on the front end, surely reduced swarming and a larger honey crop would repay you in no time.

"I've gotten awesome crops from the bees in my DE hives. Whether that is due to the hive, the weather, luck or the Buckfast bees I had in them is hard to say. But I've typically gotten 250 to 300 pounds of honey or more off of a hive."

Would you please comment on the amount of honey you got from other hives that you ran at the same time and in similar locations? 
The way I see it a hobbiest would only have to get an additional 20 lbs of honey to justify the cost of the D.E. mod kit.

Thanks, Kurt


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>While I understand that the D.E. hives are a little more expensive on the front end, surely reduced swarming and a larger honey crop would repay you in no time.

Theory is a wonderful place. If you spent the money on cheap standard equipment you could probably set up two hives instead of one. On the other hand if you only have room for two hives in your yard, why not have a Lincoln instead of a Chevy?

>Would you please comment on the amount of honey you got from other hives that you ran at the same time and in similar locations? 
The way I see it a hobbiest would only have to get an additional 20 lbs of honey to justify the cost of the D.E. mod kit.

At the time I got those yeilds I was running four hives, all DE. I had no other hives in any other location nor in any other equipment, so, as I said, it's hard to say for sure what the cause was, but I certainly think the DE hives helped. These were real DE hives, not the mod kits on Lanstroth hives. Since then I have put Mod kits on Lanstroth hives and have had good results, but I can't say they were as good. But again, I can't say that it's because of the hive, because there was a drought and the DE hives didn't do as well those years either but they still did quite well and, if I remember right, still did a little better than the Lanstroth hives on the mod kits. It's still not a big enough sample to say which is better. I bought the DE's, rather than just the mod kit, because I wanted to try the concept of not having the propolis sticking everything together and the added upset to the hive from popping the frames apart.

FYI the DE is different in several ways in addition to the ventilation system. The frames are thin and light and not as wide as a Langstroth by 1 1/2". And that's just the top bar. The actual frame is about another inch less wide. The top bars and bottom bars and end bars are thin so there is more comb space for the size of frame. But the thin bars encourages burr between the boxes and you sometimes have to pry on each frame to get it loose from the one above. I've had the same effect with PermaComb and think it gives the queen a bigger virtual comb to lay on because of the continuity between the boxes. So in spite of the inconvenience to me, I think the hive is more productive because of it. The box is 1 1/2" less wide and 1 1/2" longer so the DE box is square and holds 11 frames. I made an adapter by taking four 3/4" boards and making two make up the difference in length for the DE and the other two offset so they make up the difference on width for the Langstroth. It is simple to make and use and I mix the equipment all the time. But a Langsroth cover, innercover, bottom board, queen excluder etc. will not fit without an adapter.


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