# How long foundationless will take?



## Beestrong (May 22, 2014)

Hi everone!

This is a question targeted to Michael Bush and whosoever working foundationless.

As Dee highly encourages the use of foundation or full 4.9 drawn out frames, arguing that regressing through foundationless would take even decades to be ok, I'm just wondering How long foundationless usually take to complete the regression?

If the first generation will draw some in the middle of 5.1 - 5.4mm, the generation born from that would be able to build some in 4.9 - 5.1mm, and the next one some in "natural" - 4.9mm.

I think as while I'm continuously adding foundationless frames into the broodnest as they need it, new bees should build some size between its own size and something smaller. How long this process will take to get 4.9mm or lesser cells? 3-4 brood cycles? 3-4 years? 3-4 decades?

Thanks in advance!

Beestrong


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

I am not sure anyone knows exactly how long it would take. We have tons of foundation less combs and they vary in size be a large margin. The genetics of a colony makes a big difference. I would say without extensive selection a decade till they regressed and it probably wouldn't be 4.9 more like 5.1 

I am a big fan of clean wax but I would purchase small cell it will speed things up dramatically and you will have stronger more uniform combs with less drone comb


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'm just wondering How long foundationless usually take to complete the regression?

When using packages I don't know what size cells they were on when I got them. But I've had packages that draw 4.7mm on the first try. The bees I had on 5.4mm usually took at least two turnovers of comb and possibly three to get down to 4.9mm or so.

>If the first generation will draw some in the middle of 5.1 - 5.4mm, the generation born from that would be able to build some in 4.9 - 5.1mm, and the next one some in "natural" - 4.9mm.

Yes.

>I think as while I'm continuously adding foundationless frames into the broodnest as they need it, new bees should build some size between its own size and something smaller. How long this process will take to get 4.9mm or lesser cells? 3-4 brood cycles? 

Comb cycles, not brood cycles.


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## Beestrong (May 22, 2014)

Thanks to all for replying!

Thanks for these directions Michael, I'm following a combination of your method, Dee's method and my mentor's method (rest in peace) and although I thought exactly what you answered, my inexperience makes me unconfident at doing things...

I think that once the bees start to drawing near-correct cell size, the most dificult part could be getting all combs perfectly drawn, stright and with correct cell size.

With good flows (not massive) and once critical mass reached (of bees), they should need a couple of days to draw one worker comb, so the broodnest could be opened at a rate of 1 frame per week (or less) and get almost all worker combs in a matter of 6 - 7 months. Is this correct?

I think that almost all is about critical mass: if critical mass is reached, the hive take off; if not reached, even with constant help they will have problems for thriving. Correct?

Thanks again!

Beestrong


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Beestrong said:


> I think that almost all is about critical mass: if critical mass is reached, the hive take off; if not reached, even with constant help they will have problems for thriving. Correct?


I don't believe so. Something else is at play besides critical mass to thrive. I had a large mass of bees ( a swarm) "take off" this year and thrive. Built 20 frames of SC comb. They still succumbed to mites. If you're just interested in comb drawing, then yes, it's a bit simpler. If you want bees that thrive year to year, a bit more complex.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

> I don't believe so. Something else is at play besides critical mass to thrive. I had a large mass of bees ( a swarm) "take off" this year and thrive. Built 20 frames of SC comb. They still succumbed to mites. If you're just interested in comb drawing, then yes, it's a bit simpler. If you want bees that thrive year to year, a bit more complex.


Critical mass is good for getting combs drawn. It is definitely more complex than that for continued survival.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I think that almost all is about critical mass: if critical mass is reached, the hive take off; if not reached, even with constant help they will have problems for thriving. Correct?


"Critical mass" is usually referring to a certain number of bees, which gives them the "beepower" to get everything done with a bit of surplus. I like that concept for doing splits. As far as thriving I think it's more of a matter of the density of bees than the number of bees. A small number of bees can thrive in a space that they can occupy, guard, warm, etc.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesspace.htm


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Barry said:


> I don't believe so. Something else is at play besides critical mass to thrive. I had a large mass of bees ( a swarm) "take off" this year and thrive. Built 20 frames of SC comb. They still succumbed to mites. If you're just interested in comb drawing, then yes, it's a bit simpler. If you want bees that thrive year to year, a bit more complex.


Yep. They need to have the genetically-derived qualities that enable them to manage mites effectively - and do everything else they need to thrive. 

I agree about critical mass - sometimes a small colony - a swarm or split - will build unaided, esp. early if its early in the year, other times they just seem slow to get going. I think an ideal mix of bee ages is important. I suspect its not a bad initial test of a queen - if she can fire a little colony to build hard she worth trying. But its worth making bigger nucs for quicker results. Give her comb to lay in and some energy to work with and you can often get a strong comb-builder very quickly. But only really up to midsummer. 

Mike (UK)


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