# Open Bottom Boards



## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

*no bottom boards*

Looked into it last year, cant see an advantage over screened board other than no cost and no mice problem. Couldn't think of a way to stop robbing.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I built one

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/slats/slats.html

the bees liked it but I didn't see much advantage
robbing is the obvious issue
I won't build any more

Dave


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

I have done it out of necessity before when at an out yard and no bottoms with me. The bees do fine, but also, robbing being a concern when flows are down. And having them low enough or high enough to keep the bigger critters out.

I suppose if your bees aren't prone to robbing, but then you know what they say about locks and honest people too?????? Could bee the same with bees. Seems risky, but someone is doing it and getting away with it huh.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*Does mesh count as open?*

I use some open bottom pallets with mesh, no mice no robbing. The entranced is in the slotted slotted rack. See pic.


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## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

You haven't had any problems with mice building on your slated rack ?


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

I'd rather not risk the open invitation for SHB. I'll stick with screened BBs and powdered sugar dustings (BTW, they, the dustings, have been very effective this year!).

-Nathanael


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## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

Actually Nathan R.B. was the one talking about the guy that does it that way---- I believe in Milledgeville!!!


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

sc-bee said:


> Actually Nathan R.B. was the one talking about the guy that does it that way---- I believe in Milledgeville!!!


I thought that's who you were referring to...


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

BGhoney said:


> You haven't had any problems with mice building on your slated rack ?


I have only had mice problems in dead hives in very woodland areas. The entrance slots are 3/8"X 5". Maybe mice are less of a problem here than in other parts of the country.


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## ottebee (Jan 31, 2007)

*open bottoms*

There are some people that run screened bottoms but store the "closing" board beneath the screen. The board is only about two inches beneath the screen. 
I always assumed that the sbb should be open to the ground.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

BGhoney said:


> Looked into it last year, cant see an advantage over screened board other than no cost and no mice problem. Couldn't think of a way to stop robbing.



I'd have deer mice in a bottomless hive in a second!


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>"The normal level count will be a value between zero and nine, most often zero to five" . . .

Here is the "real problem" w/ an Open Bottom Hive.
It doesnt sound like you can find (and count) all the mites that fall from the hive


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

As far as the SHB go. I think the screen gives them a landing spot  from there they run in and out of 8 mesh like it's a 6 lane expressway.


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## Jeffrey Todd (Mar 17, 2006)

I have run a colony completely bottomless ( brood chamber sat over an empty deep super - no frames- that sat on cinder blocks) They survived the winter nicely and built up quite well. But that is just one hive. My others on solid BBs did quite well also.


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## kirk-o (Feb 2, 2007)

The late Charles Martin Simmon used the botttomles hive concept.He figured the mites would then fall into the void.Also he said it prevented thievery also.
kirkobeeo


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary said:


> I'd rather not risk the open invitation for SHB. I'll stick with screened BBs





Bizzybee said:


> As far as the SHB go. I think the screen gives them a landing spot  from there they run in and out of 8 mesh like it's a 6 lane expressway.


I'm agreeing with you here Biz. I'm beginning to believe that in areas where SHB thrive, screened bottoms are a beekeeper's worst enemy. Open bottoms would likely be as bad. Whenever the bees try to sequester SHB, the scoundrels just slip through the screen and sneak back in somewhere else. Worse yet, when the SHB larvae drop to the bottom board, instead of fighting a gauntlet of bees to go out the entrance, they just fall through the screen to the soil below. Again, I'm sure it'd be the same with an open bottom.

I just finished putting together a handful of solid bottoms. I'm converting one of my yards from screens to solids this spring to see if it helps.


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

beemandan said:


> Worse yet, when the SHB larvae drop to the bottom board, instead of fighting a gauntlet of bees to go out the entrance, they just fall through the screen to the soil below.


Where in my area, the fire ants make short work of them!

I have even been known to stack frames of comb infested with SHB larvae on top of a fire ant mound. It does not take them long to clean them up.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>screened bottoms are a beekeeper's worst enemy . . .
•	In a study by Ellis and Delaplane (2005), colonies w/ bottom screens had numerically fewer beetles [ABJ, 6/06, p538].
•	Bottom screens (#8 wire ?? [DLW]) are traversable by adult Small Hive Beetles but do not lead to greater beetle populations (Ellis and Delaplane, 2005) [ABJ, 6/06, p538].


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Dave W said:


> >screened bottoms are a beekeeper's worst enemy . . .
> •	In a study by Ellis and Delaplane (2005), colonies w/ bottom screens had numerically fewer beetles [ABJ, 6/06, p538].
> •	Bottom screens (#8 wire ?? [DLW]) are traversable by adult Small Hive Beetles but do not lead to greater beetle populations (Ellis and Delaplane, 2005) [ABJ, 6/06, p538].


Hmmmmmm....I may have to go take a look at that study.


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

I think I have to say Dan that I have seen more beetles show up in hives with solid bottoms, the few that I have had on hives along the way for one reason or another.

I have seen a few beetles hang out under the screens, but as a rule of thumb I don't typically find them there. I do on the other hand see them all the time above the screens on the tops, as many as as a hundred or so. That's been the extreme though. Typically I see from 5 to 50 hanging out up there.

I'm not sure of the logic behind this observation. But from time to time I'll have a conventional inner cover on a hive and I'll notice more beetles inside the hives. Hanging in the wings on empty comb frames. Or any little cracks and hiding places they frequent, that I've missed. On the other hand on the hives that have the screened inners, I find them above the screens and far less likely that they are inside the hives. Of course when a hive is in a period that they have more hive than bees to cover it I find more in the hives. But they are in the outer reaches where the bees aren't patrolling. But then there aren't stores for them to get into out there either.

Seems to me though, given the easy way out the beetles tend to stay outside the hive when using screened inner covers. In a strong hive they don't tolerate them crossing inside the screen at all. You can clearly watch that happen when you pop the tops. You would think that all of them would dive off into the hive through the screen but that isn't the case at all. A few try it, but most jut run around the edge of the cover trying to escape the hive tool. The few that make down in the hive are very quickly show the way back out. 

I don't know about these things bud? I've not lost a hive to them yet. I don't know if what I'm doing is better or worse than anything anyone else is doing? I do notice for a fact that some hives consistently have little to no beetles in them while others consistently have some pretty high numbers of them. I have all but stopped making any attempt to rid any of them of what's in there. Although it's hard to resist squishing them when they go running  ! But like I said earlier I've seen what I would believe to be a significant number on rare occasion (100+) and left them. Giving up the hive as a sacrificial lamb so to speak, trying to get a handle on what exactly is too much. But they just keep on going. The hive will continue to have the higher numbers through the season. I'll eventually requeen the hive, in my belief that the bees in the hives aren't as capable of dealing with the problem. Just a part of the selection process IMO.

Personally I would like to see a little more in the way objective observations with regards to the dynamics of the hives in response to these little invaders. Instead of the usual extreme reactionary responses to the problem. I'm a firm believer that the bees can adapt and overcome with time, most any natural affliction if not all. Believing that man is not only his own worst enemy but everything around him as well.

Anyhow dude!! You got that smoker all spit shined and ready to go? Bee season is just a couple of weeks away now!! Whewhooooo!!!!


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

The advantages don’t outweigh the disadvantages. As I look out my window and see the wind whip threw the trees at 30 mph snowing very hard with wind chill at -15 F around here that means lake effect snow as the wind pick up moisture form lake Michigan it would be hard for the bees to deal with. Other times of the year it would challenge the bees to defend the hive against robbing from other honeybees and hornets. In the winter voles and mice would have a field day. Ventilation is not an issue, I have never had a moisture problem so obviously they have enough ventilation. I use SBB on all my hives and when the weather gets hot I remove the tray for better ventilation and they provide a defensive barrier. And protects against cold winter winds with the tray in.

Bizzybee:

our bee season is still around seven weeks away so I have time to polish my smoker, (Drat)!!


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Biz >I think I have to say Dan that I have seen more beetles show up in hives with solid bottoms, the few that I have had on hives along the way for one reason or another.

The ABJ article that Dave W refers agrees.
Since all of my personal hives have screens and typically appear to have many more beetles than the solid bottoms at the lab....it just sent me to speculatin'. I'm still going to do my one yard with solids. The trials run by Ellis and Delaplane used the same yard for both screens and solids. I may have my doubts about varroa drift, I surely don't have any about SHB.

Biz> I do on the other hand see them all the time above the screens on the tops, as many as as a hundred or so. 

You're using screened inner covers? Mine are conventional. I see much the same. In late summer some hives have dozens on top of the inner cover and a few have hundreds.

Biz> I'll have a conventional inner cover on a hive and I'll notice more beetles inside the hives. Hanging in the wings on empty comb frames. Or any little cracks and hiding places they frequent, that I've missed.

I sometimes see this with mine too.

Biz> Of course when a hive is in a period that they have more hive than bees to cover it I find more in the hives. But they are in the outer reaches where the bees aren't patrolling. 

Too much real estate to patrol is certainly a problem.

Biz> Seems to me though, given the easy way out the beetles tend to stay outside the hive when using screened inner covers. 

I reckon I'm going to have to try some of those screened inner covers.

Biz> I've not lost a hive to them yet. 

I've lost a few. Generally the SHB are the secondary problem. Usually a queenless hive that I allowed to remain queenless for a week or so.

Biz> Anyhow dude!! You got that smoker all spit shined and ready to go? Bee season is just a couple of weeks away now!! Whewhooooo!

Which reminds me, I've got several hundred more frames to build....and here I sit. Gotta go do some real work.

It looks like we've gotten way off topic here. Sorry.


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## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Brent:

I've got a buddy up there in Lowell that's all out with the screen bottoms this year. She's lost a couple so far but they were dinks and she expected to loose them anyway. All the rest are going like gangbusters so far.

You got dat right about them stinking meeses. Wow, they love to get in those hives up there. We built some stands for the hives there year before last and those buggers were able to get into the hives at least 18 inches off the ground. The stands are built on 4 inch pvc so there isn't any climbing in, they had to make a jump for it. I don't know just how high they can jump, but it's way higher than I intend to get a hive off the ground!!  Just have to keep those short entrances on em no matter what.

I'll be back up that way soon, but I pick the warm days for ME being there!!  We had a blizzard here today even. Dang 1/4" drifts everywhere!!!!! 

Beeman:

I'll have to agree, they are every bit the nuisance that the moths are! That's what it seems to boil down to with me as well.

Surely you will clue us in on your experiment when you get done with it, I'll be looking forward to hearing what you find out!

Hope yer all bundled up and warm over there, dang winter anyhow!!


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

Bizzybee:

Currently I couldn’t tell you how many of the twenty three hives I went into winter with are still alive, because I have been laid up with a torn MCL in my left knee. I am finding out tomorrow if I can get off the crunches, one of the first things I’m going to do is check on the bees.
As far as mice the only way you can keep them out is make any entrances to small for them to squeeze into. It wouldn’t surprise me if they stand on each others back to reach a high place.
It’s been cold here below zero with a lot of lake effect snow. Should be good football weather in Green Bay.


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