# Big population hive . Management to achive that



## Cristian (Jul 28, 2014)

Hello , guys I jst wonder how you end up with those big bee population and big honey production . What do you make in the spring , summer , fall and winter so that you can have a full double brood box of bees for next season . I have a link https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLywgMaihKJMxEt597lqQ_CnqvAaYCYl5U . 
This guy is from my country but works at a farm from Saskatchewan and you could see in the videos the condition of the hives . Can you explain how they proceed that they have those populations of bees . He said that 80% of the things that he is making can be aplied here ( Romania ) . He presented what he was doing in the summer and fall but not the spring work and management because he called it the Secrets of the Beekeeper job . How you think that he manage those hives through fall , winter, spring and summer so he will have those hives ? 
From a beekeepr that is trying to have at least half of bee population that guy have .


----------



## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

How? With skill. What is it worth to you?

Crazy Roland


----------



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Christian feed the bees in the spring. Pollen sup and sugar. Control the mites. Then, don't let them swarm.


----------



## RAK (May 2, 2010)

August mite treatment, pollen sub. build larger populations for winter. Early- spring treat mites and pollen sub for early brood.


----------



## Cristian (Jul 28, 2014)

Ok , things can be presented generically but I will want to be specifically . 
About treating : fumigation or strips , when to aplly them in spring . About feeding : feeding pollen or sub patties before the pollen from outside is coming or after and keeping to feed them even if from outside is good flow . How can make from 1 frame of brood and bees in june a full two brood boxes hive in fall , just by feeding and treating them ? (except that is needed a decent queen ) ? Why some of the big guys use nucs ( 3-4-5 or 6 frames ) ? just to repair hives in spring or to control swarming ? . If they use them to repair the hives in spring how do they do it . How can a nuc made from 1 frame to build up so fast until fall and even to take a number of honey supers from them ? I don't get it because i tried and no succes . Eny tips that are not a secret ( I think ) to achive that not just , you feed them , you treat and Voila' . How the guys from Alberta , Sask do that they have those full hives . 
Sorry for being so confusing but I don't now get how do they do because I feed and treat as well as them but what is the trick and the "secret " ?


----------



## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

I don't think there are too many guys taking 1 frame for a nuc and making multiple supers before fall. Maybe the next season, but not the same year.
Try watching michael palmers videos from the national honey show for a.basic idea of what he's doing as a.commercial beekeeper and nucs.
I don't know how much else you are looking for, but asking specifics in an open forum isn't gonna get you very far. I can tell you timing is everything, and miss the timing and you will miss the potential of the bees. 
I'm not sure if there are any commercial beekeepers around you, but if there are, try working for one to get the specifics down for your area, because what works here may not work everywhere. 
Basics would be feed until they won't take any more, keeps mites low, and keep them in the boxes and not in the trees.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

The suggestions above are good. You have to have a healthy, well fed colony coming out of winter, to build a populous colony ready to make a honey crop. But much of that buildup has to be linked to the queen's performance. Raising queens from the colonies that winter well and build up into those strong colonies will give you a larger % of strong colonies that make a good crop.


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Healthy hives with large populations of well fed younger bees, with good over winter stores. However you attain that in your area. Spring colony strength depends on what you do in the summer and fall of the year before. If that video you are talking about covers summer and fall as you say, then do what it shows. Spring management is for health and honey in the summer. Beehive management is what you do now, so you have the conditions you need in the hives three months in the future.

Here are two links for you. The first is about bee nutrition, it gives good insight on how to get nutritionally healthy young bees going into winter.
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/bee-nutrition/

This second link gives a great example of what fall and winter nutrition can do for your hives...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6B5qm2ut18

As far as pests and diseases, every beekeeper has their own philosophy and management practices, you will have to study and develop your own.


----------



## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Rather than doing small splits, I've done a large split (several frames) after the main flow. They filled a 10 frame deep quickly and had a strong population going into winter.

Also, my 2 queen long lang is definitely the better producer, huge population.


----------



## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

I recommend you insulate and wrap to the above. Group hives together for winter so they share heat. Side by side on a pallet or stand, or 4/6 on a pallet. If side by side put a piece of styrofoam between hives and then apply styrofoam to all sides and even bottom. Put Styrofoam over head for sure to control where condensation occurs. If on a pallet insulate and wrap the sides and top of the 2/4/6 hives. Leave insulation on until a month after first pollen.

Also reduce bottom and top entrances to minimal so as to increase interior hive temp as much as you can. Bees can then raise more brood to maintain a larger population and then raise more brood. They also have more brood earlier because of bigger population and warmer interior hive temp. You need just enough ventilation to remove moisture. You don't want so much ventilation so that interior temp is same as exterior ambient. My bottom entrance is two 3/8 by 1/2 inch. I put the two small bottom entrances at the sides to keep away from center where brood is and also vent the side wall of the interior. It kind of same principal as a slatted rack. You will find the bottom of the brood nest lower in the hive and more to the front, if you use bottom entrances at the sides. For spring, place a block in the center and run two 2 inch side entrances.

Sure bees can survive the cold without insulation and lots of ventilation, however spring population is small. You want 80,000 bees before the flow. With insulation and pollen/honey available, the spring population and early population buildup is astonishing. 

I also do not do 50-50 splits but only take a couple of frames of brood and shake a couple more frames of nurse bees to start NUCs.


----------



## Cristian (Jul 28, 2014)

For the next winter I will wrap them ( two hives on a pallet side by side ) . The pallet that I have now are with metal mesh as bottom and a metal sheet ( i can put a piece of plywood instead ) to close it when the hives are standing and aren't moved . For the moment my tops are in a bad shape so this year I will make some new one's migratory but with an upper entrance ( what dimension is the best ) . The lower entrance have a wood reducer . What material is best to put between the black polyethylene wraps . Under the tops i use some aluminium buble wrap foil to insulate the hives all the year except the summer time . This spring I will feed them pollen patties and syrup to see how they wiil build up until the first flow 1-10 April and beetwen the flows when are periods with very poor flows to keep them in shape because I think that if i let them to be in a state of inactivity during those poor periods they will recover harder and with a great cost than the cost of feeding them . 
This year and especialy this spring i will use some strips and not the fumigation method to treat them because if i use fumigation i can treat them later when they aren't in a cluster so the atrips should work better , i guess . 
For the nucs i am in a foot not nowing what typeto chose . I have seen some 6 frames double brood box nucs somewere here that are 3 on a pallet and if all goes very good and if will be a late flow ( sometimes is , somotimes not ) i could put two supers for the 3 nucs . To rear some queens ( max 100 per year ) don't now either mini nucs or 3 frame nucs ( didn't worked with eny type of nucs for mating queens just to grow the number of the hives ) . What type from those two should be the best one ? . I have problems in spring woth the hives that aren't in a good shape in spring so they are putted in the hives that will make problems through the season . Do you guys use the nucs to repair thise hives ? it yes should i use just one type of nucs ( 6 frames let's say ) or smaller one ( 4 or 5 frames ) depending how much is needed to repair that hive with a sheet of paper or by taking frames pf brood from nucs to give to the hive that should pe repaired ? If i will use those bigger nucs i think that can be winterize to be used to repair things in spring . If the hives are insulated and the weather is in a period when is warmer ( we had in the middle of January 2 weeks with 10 degrees temp and now minus 15 ) wont make them to fly when outside ? . To be more specifically if outside are 5 degrees ( a temp that should make the bees to fly because they will froze outside ) and inside are more to stimulate them to go to fly and freeze out isn't that bad or will not be a big differece between inside and outside temp .


----------



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I find that the bees will fly out and die on those cold days because they feel the need to go out and die--for whatever reason. It is an apparent tragedy, but I wrap and do what I can to keep my hive warmer than the outside temperatures. That retained heat does not apparently kill colonies. As the wrapped ones winter better than ones not wrapped and have a looser cluster and can bring in stored food from further out in the colony. If you wrap remember above all else that the top insulation is the most important.


----------



## Goran (Oct 27, 2012)

Err.. Cristian, return to book reading, from your text you are jumping like grasshopper, confused. If is the same way your beekeeping, need to reorganize. Also find a good mentor.
I live relative near You. I work with carnies, first apiary is at top of the hill some 360-370m above sea level, there is no need for any insulation, except honey. Can do as some advise top insulation, but not crucial for my place.
But, as Ray mentioned preparation for next season start in summer (August) of past year, feed stimulative/emergency, nosema prevention, varroa treatments and never go into winter with colonies below average strength - better merge them if You fear for overwintering. 
Making new colonies by one frame of brood, I never even think of and to expect to go into winter enough strong to be productive at beginning of next season. If making splits, minimum before black locust is 2f of brood+other things needed, after black locust 3f., with time lasting increasing f. of brood - that is at my place. 
My main forage is black locust ( I believe is also significant for You?), so till 20th April I need to bees get as much brood as they can ( about 20 days before real black locust flow), but due to climate change b. locust is starting earlier few seasons.. For example, At end of March/beginning of April there is about 6-8 frames of brood, about 15-20th April 12-16 f. of brood. And that is my goal.
Spring treatment against varroa, please don't use it ever. Do winter OA treatment, late summer treatment, but some treatments against varroa at beginning and between flows - I am against them. Don't do what you don't want other to do to you..
Nucs at my place advisable minimum for overwintering are 7 frame, lang deep ( I work with lang deep - If I said correctly)..


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

If you want Alberta populations or Saskatchewan populations in your hives, get a visa, bring your check book and buy a bee business. Manitoba is much the same. Somehow bee populations can truly explode there like no other place in the world. It has to do with daylight hours and Mother Nature being generous as far as availability of pollen and nectar. Bee populations can really explode same like TNT. Sometimes I send bees to Alberta and bees always come back in better shape with very good populations. Alberta beekeepers do not generally consider southern Alberta canola pollination as being the best for their bees. Compared to here it is a nice health spa for the bees. They come back with large populations , plenty of pollen and over a 10 year average about 50 pounds of surplus honey per year.

I can feed plenty of Caspian solution, pollen patties and syrup and get a comparable population but this comes at a large expense relative to a Western Canadian honey flow. 

Jean-Marc


----------



## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Christian, there are plenty of beekeeping farms in Canada that hire. Might want to send in your resume. Isn't that what Dan Margaret did?


----------



## Cristian (Jul 28, 2014)

RAK I have a bussines here ( I make beehives boxes and others ) and the bees ( just 50 for now ) . For the moment ( this year ) i'l stay here but maybe the next i will make a trip to work and see how things are made there . 
Jean , it is true that the conditions are different is Alberta than here ( 45 ^ lat N ) but the tehniques can be apllied in a great measure . Things like treating are a little different because some meds can be used , the flows are intermitents . The tehniques can be apllied but in what consist that ? . Talking about the flows here starts at the begining of the April with some canola/rape seeded in fall then black locust in May then the tillia in July and some sunflower in July/August . I dont have a continuos flow , just some earlier and shorts who require a lot of bees in that period to get something from them . 
Goran . Insulation is needed here because i have periods when in winter have -30 and a brutal wind and then a warmer period with those alternation so if i insulate them i should atenuate this temp difference .
No.1 : when treating in spring you put the strips before pollen is comeing from outside ( when feeding patties ) or after observing that pollen is coming in ? 
No.2 : when is the moment to give them grease medicated patties in spring to be as effective as it can and to not have tracks in honey .
No.3 when wrapping the hives the both entrances are opened through the winter . What size is used in general for the lower and upper entrance ? to have enough ventilation to eliminate the humid air and not alow to the mice to get in ? 
No.4 : how long before a early flow should the feeding be started ( 60 days for a bee to become a forager from what i now ) , is that the interval or should be bigger than 60 days ? 
No.5 : in spring usually is the period for repairing hives that are not in a shape that will make a honey crop . The repair consist in taking frames of brood from hives that are to big for the period and by tacking frames we stop them from swarming and help other hives or using nucs that was wintered and take from the nucs frames of brood to help the production hives and from the to advanced production hives to make other nucs to increase the number or just to have nucs for the next spring ? or consist in combine the problematic hive to a winted nuc ? .
No.6 : when making nucs should move the nuc that was made , in another yard or can be maked a lift in the same yard 
No.7 : if the hives are on pallet with 2 hives side by side in winter the cluster should get side by side on the common wall . In this case the whenthe cluster is forming there and not in the center of the box they will have access to just a part of stores and not to the entire box . How bees would acces the rest of stores if they clustered in that part ? If they are insulated the warmer air from the box ( heat produced by them ) make them to be more active in warmer thays and to get in the stores besides the cluster ? ( in warmer thays shouldnt be in a right cluster so they will be in more frames ) . 
No.8 : In fall when feeding to make the winter stores is needed thick syrup but how fast should be give the feed and in what quantities , smaller but more frecvently or one big portion in one round or two if needed ? . 
No.9 : In fall personally i start in august to stimulate the queen to lay more brood but often it doesn't is so effective . Should feed beside the syrup more protein patties because in a frame in fall rarely i can see rings of pollen that is beside the brood bacause is a lot more less brood than spring or summer , is that the case to feed more protein ? . 
The strategy of stimulating first and after that feeding for winter is good or should feed them for winter to fill the frames that have emerging brood forcing after that the queenin the lower box and then stimulating her to lay more brood ? 
No.10 : how big is the risk to loose quuens when treating with formic ? . if this is big could that queen be replaced by another one gived by me in fall or is to late to give them a new queen . I ask because i don't now what should be the period when the formic can be used in fall , August after supers are down or after fall feeeding ? 
No.11 : When making nucs i saw that some guys take the frames of bees and brood , put all those in a box spraying them with water so they won't fly as much then putting some pheromones through the brood frames and then take them away to make nucs in another yard . If that is process described is corect why the pheromones is kept untill the queen from the cell is mated ? to keep them from making their own one , why the bees don't kill the queen that emerges from the cell if having the artificial queen ( pheromones) ? . 
When planting a cell in a nuc for mating is needed to protect it or should be planted in specific position on frame so the bees will accept mre easily the cell , not destroyng it . 
How is the acceptance on wax cell vs plastic one's in a rearing hive to grow the cells . How can be the frames from minimating nucs drawed ? I think'd to make a frame and put the miniframes in the bigger one get it with brood and bees and then populate the nucs , other alternatives ? If using 3 frames nucs ( in one box ) for rear queens in fall by combining the nucs to the hive than need the queen be changed on a pallet that contains 2 boxes - 6 three frames nucs the entrances can be made on the front side for the nucs closer to the box wall and for the center nuc on the back side ? or is needed to make the entrance on the sides of the box for the nucs closer to the box wall . In case that the entrances are made 2 in the front and one in the back ( for the middle nuc ) is it a posibility when 2 boxes are on a pallet the entrances that are close to confuse the queens that are going to mate , is needed some colored reducers or something else ? . 
I have alot more questions than these . Thank's for all the tips that you told me .


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Cristian I think you will get more help if you keep the questions down to one or two.

The 3 secrets of commercial beekeeping.
1- Feed your bees
2- Treat your bees for all honeybee diseases
3- Keep young queens in your hives.

Spend your time doing, that is what all successful commercial beekeepers do. No need to over analyse or think the guy next door has some edge over you.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jean-marc said:


> The 3 secrets of commercial beekeeping.
> 1- Feed your bees
> 2- Treat your bees for all honeybee diseases
> 3- Keep young queens in your hives.
> Jean-Marc


Soooo very well said, and so simple, who thought of dat.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

jean-marc said:


> Cristian I think you will get more help if you keep the questions down to one or two.
> 
> The 3 secrets of commercial beekeeping.
> 1- Feed your bees
> ...


4- All year long - not just to get ready for some season.


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Yes year long especially for those southern types. I was not thinking that way being a little further North. Mind you it is much milder here than the rest of the country. Working on secret 1 and 2 right now. In about 6 weeks California will start shipping queens to Canada and we can start working on secret number 3.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

jean-marc said:


> In about 6 weeks California will start shipping queens to Canada and we can start working on secret number 3.


Jean-Marc do you eliminate the old queen or takes it to another goal?


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Cristian, its all about the amount of nectar in those flowers, and that's out of anyone's control. 

A slow flow will fill frames of honey per week, a strong flow will fill boxes of honey per week,


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

We eliminate the queens that have obvious problems... tattered wings, crippled, old ones, drone layers. This is done all the time as we work throughout the year. In 6 weeks when we get queens from California we explode strong hives in 4 nucs... queenless ones get a California queen. Old queen are usually kept because they came from best hives which are exploded. If we have too many strong hives and not enough nuc sales then extra strong hives are divided in 2 and queenless hives get a California queen. We mark colonies with the appropriate color tape for the year and depending who raised the queen we will place that piece of tape on a different location of the front of the hive. That way when you look at a hive you know where that queen came from and what year it was raised. If we catch them superceding we keep an eye out for it and change it to the right color for the year. The lineage we use is very good at superceding itself. 

Jean-Marc


----------



## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

Cristian-

I think you should heedthe advice given in the 3 secrets of commercial beekeeping. Your long list of questions can be answered with expierence, but it still will come down to what you know and what you do, not what a bunch of people halfway around the world say to do on an internet forum. I would suggest hooking up with other local beekeepers to see what they are doing, and asking basic questions on forums, not specific questions. I am not sure you will ge the answers you are looking for here.
READ READ READ. There are a ton of good books on the market that will help you in you beekeeping. Many are geared towards hobby beekeepers, but the basic priciples are the same. Healthy bees in your boxes on a good flow, and in good numbers will produce a crop of surplus honey for you. Sick bees, low numbers and bees in trees and not in the boxes dont produce. 
I guess it all comes down to control varroa and other pests, stimulate by feeding and manage for swarms.


----------



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

>The lineage we use is very good at superceding itself. > Great feature, IMO.
Good tip using color tape to mark the hive with the year of the queen and the supplier. 
Who am I to say this but you have a very structured operation. Thank you Jean-Marc.

>a strong flow will fill boxes of honey per week> Ian this strong flow comes from canola?


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Thanks Eduardo. Maybe you are a guy who recognize structure? We can also use duct tape to indicate relative strength of a hive. So depending where it is on a hive it means it has x frames of bees. This way we can monitor relative colony strength over time. We hope to see growth and sometimes it can shoe an error in our ways.

I used to watch the Red Green show and it had a very strong influence upon me and inspired in me other ways to use duct tape.  Bless their souls for this.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Cristian (Jul 28, 2014)

Ian : 

Indeed , previous year at black locust a strong family ( i have few craxy hives ) had stay on 5 boxes and filled the 3 supers in 9 days but after that .....rain, rain , rain . I had in the best day almost 11 kg of nectar coming in . This is very rare and a exception , i wish all the hive to be like that , five are dead 
from 50 hives.


----------



## Cristian (Jul 28, 2014)

Eduardo : 

In most cases yes , canola can be a huge flow , alfalfa here if is for seeds has a good flow depending on the temps and water .


----------



## Cristian (Jul 28, 2014)

jean-marc said:


> Thanks Eduardo. Maybe you are a guy who recognize structure? We can also use duct tape to indicate relative strength of a hive. So depending where it is on a hive it means it has x frames of bees. This way we can monitor relative colony strength over time. We hope to see growth and sometimes it can shoe an error in our ways.
> 
> I used to watch the Red Green show and it had a very strong influence upon me and inspired in me other ways to use duct tape.  Bless their souls for this.
> 
> Jean-Marc


I use some metal pawn that is colored with the year of the queen and i push it in the back or front of the box and in the position were give me a indication of the shape of the hive . I used duct tape but because some are poor quality an raini weather they fall sometimes of an leave me to think about what it is that hive . 
whne you make nucs you use nust the strong hive or toghether with the poooar one's . You split them away by the box or by frames ?


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

We take very strong hives and explode into 4 nucs. We let the strong hives grow to become very strong for the next week or 2. This way we spend our time exploding the great ones, swarm prevention and we allow other hives to grow. We used to cherry pick brood and bees from several hives to make nucs but I think this way is better. The disadvantage is you first need to identify the very strong that you want to split then move them all to a common area and explode them there. After explosion we move them out again, introduce queens , feed etc...

Sometimes if we havemore bees than nuc sales we can split the strong ones in 2 by the box. Just depends. That is the thing about bees... you have to be flexible and adjust your plans to fit what will work best at that time. A measure of self doubt afterwards should keep you on your toes afterwards. There are many ways to do things. Every method has advantages and disadvantages. Experience will guide you over time to the pros and cons of whatever method is used.

Jean-Marc


----------



## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

jean-marc said:


> We take very strong hives and explode into 4 nucs. We let the strong hives grow to become very strong for the next week or 2.


Are those already doubles, ie on 16+ frames when you explode into nucs, or are you doing that with singles ?


----------



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Cristian said:


> In most cases yes , canola can be a huge flow , alfalfa here if is for seeds has a good flow depending on the temps and water .


Thanks Cristian. In Portugal there is not canola cultivation tradition. I've been studying a bit about canola and the information I got is that it produces a very healthy oil for human health. Also is an excellent nectar plant. A two in one.


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

These hives are doubles. We wait till they get pretty full. When you tip them off the pallet (bottom board) and look below bees have to be covering 5 frames right to the bottom bars, or more. At that point there are 8-10 frames of brood. Enough for 4 nucs at 2 frames each. plus bees usually 4-5 frames each. Things get shifted around and 10% of them are 3-4 framers (to weak for market) and 10% are too strong. This is inevitable in this kind of work... so knowing this we make adjustments. One adjustment is to make 10% extra so if we need 1000 make at least another 100. Maybe an extra 50 for queen losses. Then if we make 1150 we are pretty to have 1000 for such and such date. Those 3-4 framers will meet grade at such and such date plus 2 weeks. So if you have a customer for 2 weeks later no problem. Nice thing about bees is if you have them someone else always wants them. You just need to come to terms.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

What Jean Marc describes is a great way to use up extra queens. I quit trying to plan on what I needed for queens and just put in a standing order for what I usually need over three weeks. At the end of the split or anytime inbetween (because of weather issues) I nuc them out. Makes my planning so much easier. Those nucs usually are used later in the season to requeen and repair failing hives to help meet my baseline grade going into the flow.

No more fret and worry around queen arrival time, just split and nuc my little heart out! Well... not actually me, but I am there running rough shot  I have set things up so that most of this work can be passed off to my help.


----------



## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

Umm... the advice to treat all your bees for every bee disease is a bit disturbing to me. When I was just getting into bee work, the guys I worked for treated with tm every time they opened a bee hive, subsequently they developed a bad case of tm resistant foul brood. We aren't running a hog confinement. I treat for foul brood on an as need basis. And it seems to work for me.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Well, we only treat whenever the disease develops and not across the board for
whatever as a prevention. Raising healthy bees is the long run solution to a sustainable
apiary.

Eduardo, the Canola not only good as a food oil source and nectar but their pollen is also an
excellent source to feed the bees too. Very compact form full of nutrients. Good for pollen trapping
to feed back to your bees with the subs. too. Planting a field or 2 will certainly help your bees out. The
standard ones are the green type but there are also the purple Canola too. I like them both as they are very
frost tolerant also. If you collected the seeds then every year you don't need to buy again. Why don't you try them
out this season.


----------



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

beepro said:


> Why don't you try themout this season.


Beepro you give me a good idea to study and analyse the feasibility. I have an apiary in a my own land where I have a planting trees (cherry, chestnut, ash, oak , ... ) which is wet and cold. Between the rows of trees I think I'm able to do sowing. At what time of year it is canola sowing and at what time of year it is flowering? I must have some special care in preparing the ground? Thank you in advance for your guidelines.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I'd grow clover instead of canola. Clover is much more diverse and indestructible. I have a love hate relationship with canola because it had kept our farm in business but a curse to grow


----------



## Cristian (Jul 28, 2014)

Ian said:


> I'd grow clover instead of canola. Clover is much more diverse and indestructible. I have a love hate relationship with canola because it had kept our farm in business but a curse to grow


It is clover a big water lover or it suport sometimes periods with low water presence . I have some acres that could be planted with clover but no irigation system . How bees work it ? is like alfalfa or easier . 
About canola or rape here i have in back of my yard at least 500 Ha but the problem sometimes is that here they plant it in fall and it blooms in spring , maybe half of April and the bees are not the strong as in summer , like at you . Curse to grow , agree this year some hectares are frozen out so losed with it .


----------



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Ian said:


> I'd grow clover instead of canola.


Ian there are wild clover in my country. In a quick search I found that there are several subspecies and, the most important for honey production are White or Dutch Clover, Alsike Clover, Red Clover and Crimson Clover. Do you know if all have a nectar flow at the same time of year? The soil needs some special conditions to be sown?


----------



## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Cristian said:


> It is clover a big water lover or it suport sometimes periods with low water presence .


If you want your lawn to remain green thru the dry periods, without watering, use a seed mix that includes clover. Decades ago, clover was pretty much standard in lawn seed for north america, but it fell out of favour over time, mostly because it attracts pollinators, and people were getting stung because they occaisionally stepped on bees walking across the lawn. As the clover disappeared from lawns, the need to water them went up as fast as the clover disappeared.


----------



## Cristian (Jul 28, 2014)

Ian said:


> What Jean Marc describes is a great way to use up extra queens. I quit trying to plan on what I needed for queens and just put in a standing order for what I usually need over three weeks. At the end of the split or anytime inbetween (because of weather issues) I nuc them out. Makes my planning so much easier. Those nucs usually are used later in the season to requeen and repair failing hives to help meet my baseline grade going into the flow.
> 
> No more fret and worry around queen arrival time, just split and nuc my little heart out! Well... not actually me, but I am there running rough shot  I have set things up so that most of this work can be passed off to my help.


That is my plan to . I would prefer to use part of nucs to repair failing hives through the season and spring with the wintered one and aother part to increase the size of apiary . Ian haow you bank queens until they are putted in hives ? . Wht ou do with the nucs that remain and aren't used , you put on a double brood box or winter as they are ?


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

shake some young bees over the cages and feed. use and manage the nucs accordingly as the year progresses


----------



## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

grozzie2 said:


> If you want your lawn to remain green thru the dry periods, without watering, use a seed mix that includes clover. Decades ago, clover was pretty much standard in lawn seed for north america, but it fell out of favour over time, mostly because it attracts pollinators, and people were getting stung because they occaisionally stepped on bees walking across the lawn. As the clover disappeared from lawns, the need to water them went up as fast as the clover disappeared.


Pssst, there are also some nice hardy perennials with strong deep taproots that can get moisture from deep below and stay green when the top soil dries up. It's a plant the settlers brought with them called _Taraxacum officinale_, I heard the bees love it too.


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Cristian:

Those are some of the choices for nuclei. Fix production hives, use them as increase, sell them (for fun and profit). Extras are put in singles or not. Depends on time of year. You are the manager so manage. 5 frames can be overwintered but is pretty tricky. 6 frames is way easier to overwinter at least in my area. On the prairies I would not try less than 1 box, even in a shed. Not less than 1 box... but I have not tried over there. Sometimes you just gotta do it and see how it all shakes out. Try to remember the lessons for the future seasons.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

jean-marc said:


> Sometimes you just gotta do it and see how it all shakes out. Try to remember the lessons for the future seasons.


Amazing how many things beekeeping that are "set in stone" actually aren't.



> On the prairies I would not try less than 1 box, even in a shed.


5 framers are not a problem in a wintering shed. I imagine outdoors might be tricky but have never tried it. I often winter some queens in mating nucs with 4 half frame deeps.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

That dawn dandelions. My bees won't touch.
Going for the canola now.


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Allen:

Do you have many 5 framers in the shed? I cannot see it working so well if they are started too early or a little late. In my experience the smaller the unit the higher the winter losses based on 5, 6 and 10 frames. I have tried it enough times to know that started with approximate equal strength units made on day 1, come winter, the 6 framers will be a little bit better than the 5 framers but near as good as the 10 framers. The winter losses are 5,6,10; highest to lowest. Generally the 10 frames have more bees come spring. For a little bit more feed and medication it just works better for the next spring. I have tried this over many seasons and always in hundreds or thousands, just to make sure 


Keep in mind this is here and bees have to face a temperate coastal rain forest. Let's just say it rains a lot here. Any shade is deadly here come winter. Keep the mountains and tall trees in mind when selecting a bee yard if given the choice of many. Allen and all the other prairie beekeepers face an extremely cold and dry environment. I am sure they do things just a little differently than here to have continued success.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Jean-Marc

300 nucs this year. Most years 100 - 200. I hired a part time employee this year to work strictly with the nucs. 5 framers can be a mess and have all sorts of problems if one lets things slide. During honey production nucing and queen rearing are the first to go for me I find. An employee dedicated to this sure helped.

You are right, a wintering shed on the cold, dry prairies is very different from a milder climate. In addition to the differences you mentioned, the bees in the wintering shed raise minimal brood and need far fewer resources than I suspect your bees would need during a warmer winter.

I find that my 5 frame nucs throw far fewer bees during winter than my production hives. Seemingly a good portion of the bees going into winter must be young bees. A strong 5 framer going into winter usually comes out with lots of bees and will explode next spring. People who have purchased these from me at the end of April have had them swarm out of a double by early to mid summer. Nucs going in with 2-3 frames of bees because they were produced too late usually winter alright but often need a little help in spring to have a critical mass for growth.


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I can just see trouble when the 5 framers have set up a bunch of brood and have stored surplus honey. Beekeeper takes all honey from above, and we have 4-5 frames of brood, plenty of bees. Heavy feeding has to take place, now. Over here too heavy a nuc, then the moisture condensates on cold honey frames during winter and we have ourselves a mess come spring. This is especially true on the Dave Tegart type of 5 frame styrofoam nuc. This weight issue holds true for 6 framers but mine are wooden and have adequate ventilation so the condensation problem is greatly reduced, not eliminated.

We see the same sort of explosive growth in nucs assuming they reach critical mass, Sometimes a little help goes a long way in the weaker ones.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Cristian (Jul 28, 2014)

jean-marc said:


> Cristian:
> 
> Those are some of the choices for nuclei. Fix production hives, use them as increase, sell them (for fun and profit). Extras are put in singles or not. Depends on time of year. You are the manager so manage. 5 frames can be overwintered but is pretty tricky. 6 frames is way easier to overwinter at least in my area. On the prairies I would not try less than 1 box, even in a shed. Not less than 1 box... but I have not tried over there. Sometimes you just gotta do it and see how it all shakes out. Try to remember the lessons for the future seasons.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Here with 3-4-5 even 6 frame nucs in one box over winter is like asking for problems . I plan to make this year some 3 frame nucs for mating some queens and other 6 frame nucs for start but for winter they will stay in to 6 frames boxes , this way it less stress for me because they will have the full upper box for stores .
I will make them with 4 frames of brood and one with honey and another empty draw frame . I will feed them to build to get a second empty box overhead with draw frames and wax sheets . This is how they will go over winter . The 3 frames nuclei will build up like the 6 frames after ended they'r job and go through in the same configuration .


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Eduardo, canola is best to sow during the early Spring time when it is still raining or in between you have to provide irrigation if the soil is too dry.
Mixed in composted manure for the organic nutrients. Make sure there is no weeds to compete with the young seedlings after sprouted. They should flower within a month or so after planting depending on the warm weather condition that they will grow faster. They like full sun so no shades. A succession planting at every month will allow a continued harvest. If you don't harvest the seeds they will fall to the ground to sprout again or bee eaten by the birds. In the late Fall you can also sow them for an early Spring flowering. They are frost tolerant too. Do update us on it if you decided to try.


----------



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Thanks beepro for your friendly help. I'll look for the seeds and I will try to sow in early April on a parcel of land that is very wet until the end of June.


----------



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Let me rephrase that a bit. The canola seeds only need the moist soil surface to sprout.
Once they had sprouted they don't need much water but don't let the soil goes too dry either.
Let them dry out a bit in between watering will do.
The established plants will tolerate the drought some what but not too much. They don't like
the wet feet either so may not like too wet a surface once established. You are welcome to try it though.


A perfect moist surface for seed starting:


----------



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Thanks for the details and nuances. I'll see if I can find the seeds in Portugal and I'll try it.


----------



## Cristian (Jul 28, 2014)

I've been thinking for a while and take'd a decision . This season i will make some 3 frame nuc for mating quuens and another batch of 4 frames nucs like MP style . The thing is that i don't now how are positionated the entrances on MP style nuclei , both are in front or one in front and the other on back . If putted on a 2 way pallet will be 4 entrances in line , could be done , I mean isn't any problem when 4 entrances are in one line and so close or will better if the entrances are alternating ? . 
Could be the nucleus and production colonies to be putted on 2 way pallets that will be like a bottom board , so the pallet , the boxes and the lid , instead of using a bottom board .How are the colonies moved when not using bottom boards from pallet to pallet if a nuc or production hive had died on a specific pallet so other pallets could be completed with hives , no empty spot's ? .


----------



## Cristian (Jul 28, 2014)

Michael Palmer 
And another thing . I read and listen on a MP presentation or maybe here were you said that are useing the nucs for to be brood factories but what happen with the production colonies when they want to swarm because are to crowded or the lack of a flow when they are booming with bees ? Did yoy take frames of brood from the production colonies to prevent them swarm or what do you do so that will not swarm and in case that are preparing to swarm how do you proceed ? .


----------

