# Wanted Mating Nuc plans And Frames.



## johns bees (Jan 25, 2009)

you should check out Lauris post on mating nucs it should be very helpful.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

David, a couple of thoughts. I use 5 frames and a 9 inch total width box, but you will see that Michael Palmer (nuc evangelist) uses 4 frame nucs for a total width of about 8 1/8 inches. That way he can put standard telescopic covers on top of 2 side by side nucs; There is a lot to be said for interchangeable equipment.
A lot of it is personal preferance. I don't like divided boxes as my woodworking skills don't divide them very well, and then if I take apart stacked divided boxes I forget which way round they were and worry if I'm stacking them back together the same way. 
I really like OD Frank cleats
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ndle-Cleats-see-pics&highlight=odfrank+cleats
These are the ones I have airing in a bedroom.
http://s1110.beta.photobucket.com/user/AdrianQuineyWI/media/2012-12-02184842.jpg.html?sort=6&o=11
Side boards are 19 1/8 long by 9 5/8, the end boards are 9 by 9 5/8. I make the rabbett 3/8 deep by 6/8 on three sides; One becomes the frame rest and the other 2 accommodate the side boards ( 3/8 + 19 1/8 + 3/8 = 19 7/8 total length).
I clamp the rabbetts with Titebond 2. Drill and nail, drill an entrance hole 3 inches from the top, add cleats, and finally primer and 2 coats of outdoor oops paint.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

If you are using these for mating, we have used a four frame duplex, eash frame is half as long as normal, and the depth of a shallow.

Crazy Roland


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

Ya Just finish one of Bush's talks and need to do some more thinking on witch way I will go. If it will be a mini nuc box or a nuc box with a feeder to take up space. The one thought I have is to cut a frame in half and mabe a little less. So two of them could go in a normal box on a new frame rest in the center. THe only thing I know is that I didn't like a 10 frame set up for four nucs. In the last two years I have one way or other lost some queens to them. I might do some of both. The mini for some egg cell/ queen raising/ by punch cell 
David


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

johns bees said:


> you should check out Lauris post on mating nucs it should be very helpful.


I second that.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Sorry David, on a re-read I just noticed the bit about wanting the ones with the smaller frames.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

My mating nucs are 4 way with 4 mini frames in each, with standard hive bodies and covers. 

Bottom Board: Pine rim with 1/2" plywood dadoed into rim with 3/8 rim on each side of plywood. So rim is about 1 1/4...a bit less as 1/2" plywood is 7/16. Two 3/8" cleats are attached to bottom, corresponding to position of central divider and internal feeders.










Hive Body: Standard hive body with rabbett cut into the middle of each short side to accept 5/4" divider. Top edge of divider has a 3/8" x 5/8" frame rest cut into each side. That leaves 3/8" on top as the separator. When cutting the 5/4" divider, don't buy 5/4x12", buy 5/4x6". Then shiplap the two together. Helps with shrinkage and cupping. 

Feeders are 2" wide x the width of the cavity from divider to box inside edge...minis...1/8" so you can remove feeder and bees can't cross around feeder. Depth is the same as the box you use. 










Inner Cover: Grain bag.

Outer Cover: Standard.

Frames: Buy standard deep frames and two extra end bars foir each frame bought. Cut top bars so they fit between the frame rests, minus a 16th so they can be removed. Can't remember the length off the top of my head.. Re-mill the top bar to match the other end. Cut and re-mill the bottom bars to fit. I cross wire wired foundation. Starting out, you might cut up brood combs on a table saw top fit into frames. 




















Place mating nuc frames into broodnest of strong colony to Get brood in comb. Doesn't always work well...bees put nectar and pollen in minis and queen ignores. If you have wintered nucleus colonies, elevate brood and bees over excluder, emptying bottom box. Place minis in end to end with queen. She has to lay there. When minis are full of brood, break up into mating nucs...two frames with brood, one honey, and one empty comb or foundation. Give cells next day.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Delete double post


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## F.Woodside (Dec 18, 2009)

Hi Mike,
I've made similar feeders out of water resistant 1/8" masonite, assembled with poly construction adhesive. The masonite became moist, swollen and moldy. It looks as though yours are made with luan, do you seal the feeder with something? after assembly, or as parts? Thanks


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

Michael 
I thought you did mostly med frames? I need to plan a week or two of free labor with you some time 
David


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>These are the ones I have airing in a bedroom.
http://s1110.beta.photobucket.com/us...ml?sort=6&o=11

Still in the bedroom? You must not be married. At least make the bed so the sheets do not absorb the paint odor. Is that a children's room? I'm calling Child Protective Services. And that hive color!!!


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

odfrank said:


> ...Still in the bedroom? You must not be married... And that hive color!!!


Hahaha. Yeah, that looks like Adrian's testing the limits of a family's love...


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I am thinking over this same issue. I am pretty well set on a single small mating nuc. Something like Mann Lakes Styrofoam Mini Mating Nuc. If anyone has palns for something like that I would appreciate it. Otherwise I will have to make it up on my own.

One concern I am not certain about is the issue of the queen needing enough space to move and a minimum population of bees in order to maintain proper temp. I have found a number for the population at around 1000 bees minimum but I cannot find an area minimum. As in square inches of comb. I am thinking these mini nucs would be more than enough since the issue for a mated queen is more an issue of being confined to a cage. I am just looking for a little more concrete information than my best guess.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

One issue I have with single minis is...what do you do with them when queen rearing is finished for the season? Dump them out on the ground? Unite many into one? 

The 4 way can be expanded to 2 way...from 4 combs each to 8 combs each by catching one queen and moving the feeder to the sidewall. They can be wintered like that or 6 queens can be caught and the now queenless 2 way can be united on top of the queen-right 2 way. Or, a 10 frame mini super can be added to each side of the 2 way. Then, with wintering minis, you have brood and bees and queens in the spring to start the new mating nucs.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

F.Woodside said:


> Hi Mike,
> I've made similar feeders out of water resistant 1/8" masonite, assembled with poly construction adhesive. The masonite became moist, swollen and moldy. It looks as though yours are made with luan, do you seal the feeder with something? after assembly, or as parts? Thanks


Water resistant masonite...is that the same as tempered? I have as many with tempered masonite as with luan. They don't get wet. I don't seal the luan or masonite. I do use exterior grade construction adhesive to seal joints and between rim and masonite/luan.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Medium comb are for honey storage...deeps are best for brood. IMO


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> One issue I have with single minis is...*what do you do with them when queen rearing is finished for the season?* Dump them out on the ground? Unite many into one?
> 
> The 4 way can be expanded to 2 way...from 4 combs each to 8 combs each by catching one queen and moving the feeder to the sidewall. They can be wintered like that or 6 queens can be caught and the now queenless 2 way can be united on top of the queen-right 2 way. Or, a 10 frame mini super can be added to each side of the 2 way. Then, with wintering minis, you have brood and bees and queens in the spring to start the new mating nucs.


Hey I'm workin on it, okay  I am just kidding it is also true I have a long way to go. I will not be using Minis exclusively. they fit a specific roll in my overall plan. Right now I have an idea of what I think will work. Next year I will start actually doing it and see what needs to be adjusted. abandoned and or completely re planned.


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

My-smokepole said:


> Looking for the one with the smaller frames. About the size of a 10 frame box. with four hives to the box. Or am I better off doing them as a single or double box. My winter Project.
> David


How many queens are you Mating ???
You do know the little Mating Nuc have a hard time drawing comb :s 



BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Jim 134 said:


> You do know the little Mating Nuc have a hard time drawing comb :s
> 
> 
> 
> BEE HAPPY Jim 134


Why is that?


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Daniel Y said:


> Why is that?


 :scratch: I see you do not read Repay #8



BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Jim 134 said:


> :scratch: I see you do not read Repay #8
> 
> 
> 
> BEE HAPPY Jim 134


I wasn't asking Michael about what you claimed. Got as much answer as you have attitude?


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## djastram (May 1, 2011)

Here you go Daniel Y

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~reute001/Plan files/pMini Mating Nucs.pdf

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~reute001/Plan files/pMini Mating Nuc 4x4.pdf


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> My mating nucs are 4 way with 4 mini frames in each, with standard hive bodies and covers.
> 
> Bottom Board: Pine rim with 1/2" plywood dadoed into rim with 3/8 rim on each side of plywood. So rim is about 1 1/4...a bit less as 1/2" plywood is 7/16. Two 3/8" cleats are attached to bottom, corresponding to position of central divider and internal feeders.
> 
> ...



Now can you see it 


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Jim, I was asking "Why" Not for a copy of one solution. If you don't have an observation or opinion that is fine. But you seem to think you need to answer the question you think I should have asked rather than the one I did ask.
Now, do you see it?

Kelly bees puts it fairly well in their first newsletter.
Quote form the introduction to July 2010 newsletter.
"We’re publishing this newsletter because, in most cases, you don’t need necessarily more information, but you do need options, considerations, and solutions to your unique situation."


Djastram, Thank you. I can't tell you how much I appreciate those links.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Quite the plans DJ, from Gary, thanks. Now you know why I use the design I use.


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## djastram (May 1, 2011)

These are the ones I built. I have 17 of the doubles. 

http://youtu.be/q13iKBVixY8

http://youtu.be/R-M8OQn7H_0

I have since decided to use queen castles instead, and the mini's will sit where they are. I am trying to hold fast to using standard equipment, whenever possible.


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Jim 134 said:


> You do know the little Mating Nuc have a hard time drawing comb :s
> 
> 
> 
> BEE HAPPY Jim 134


Daniel Y
Do you not ask this question


Daniel Y said:


> Why is that?


You just do not like my answer.............A cup of bees have very few rescuers to draw out comb to make cells




BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

So do you think it would work better to retrofit the frames to fit in a full size hive and let them be drawn there?

I want out to the shop and cut the pieces for one each of the 3 and 4 frame minis yesterday. I will put them together later today and start making frames for them. I take it the 4 frame is supposed to have a frame feeder in it???

I am working over an idea of how to make clips that will hold two of these half frames together end to end so they could be placed in a full size box for comb building.

The idea that 4 of these could be placed over a full size hive. the 3 frames comes out a bit to small the 4 frame a bit to large. But either way I think they could be made to set on a board designed to adapt them over a full box and then allow the bees to move down and out of the nucs. At worst I end up with a bunch of mini frames full of honey. 

Both of these have solid bottom boards and only one half inch ventilation hole. Is that going to be enough? I have heard not to put screens on the bottom. I am also concerned that the bees will be able to keep the queen at the proper temperature.

Anyway I made these two just so I can set and stair at them and ponder. I will make a 4 way as well. actually I want to make a 4 way a couple of different ways. one with 4 compartments but using full size frames. I don't think I will get away with the big ones setting on my desk though.

In addition what has been the general experience with using graphic on the front of the hives. such as a circle. square. star etc. and what colors make a difference to bees? Do the graphics seem to help and do colors make a difference?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Daniel Y said:


> So do you think it would work better to retrofit the frames to fit in a full size hive and let them be drawn there?
> 
> I am working over an idea of how to make clips that will hold two of these half frames together end to end so they could be placed in a full size box for comb building.


I've tried just about every way to get the bees to draw mini combs and fill them with brood....before I set up the mating nucs. Placing them, end to end in the broodnest of a strong colony doesn't always work. Often you get only pollen and nectar. I use 2 frames of brood to start my mating nucs. Setting up 500 of them in May takes a bunch of brood. Adding frames of foundation to brood nests doesn't work. For the initial combs, why not cut up brood combs to fit into the mini frames, and pin them there with support pins?

Even then you'll have difficulty getting the queen to lay in them. You can add a super of them above a broodnest, or within the broodnest, but still you won't get the brood needed. If you have any wintered over nucleus colonies, do this...

Remove combs of brood and bees from bottom nuc box...mine are two story. Add 8 mini frames...my nuc boxes hold 4 deep combs per story...end to end, and place the queen on them. Elevate the brood and bees from bottom box over an excluder. Add the second story above that box if your nucs are in 2 stories. In 3 weeks, your mini frames will be full of brood.

Once your mating nucs are up and running, you should be able to winter them and have brood in the combs. They'll draw additional combs during the active season...in fact you had better plan on it so they don't get too strong and swarm.

Check Dave Cushman's site. He has plans for folding frames that open into standard deep size...fold into 2 mini size.


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## djastram (May 1, 2011)

I added some temporary frame rests to a medium for drawing out the mini's. The queen of the colony even laid eggs in a couple of the frames.

The mini frame setup in the medium box got kind of messy, they drew comb between the frames, that had to be torn apart to get them out of the medium.

http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/djastram/FILE0021.jpg

http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz187/djastram/IMAG0048.jpg


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Michael, I have two 5 frame nucs as of now. Provided they make it through winter I will give your instructions a shot. I did think of the cutting and pinning of brood comb into the frames.

djastram. I figured they would have to be cut apart and cleaned up.

Overall it sounds like mini drawn frames are as valuable as any other drawn frame in an apiary.


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Daniel Y said:


> Michael, I have two 5 frame nucs as of now. Provided they make it through winter I will give your instructions a shot. I did think of the cutting and pinning of brood comb into the frames.
> 
> djastram. I figured they would have to be cut apart and cleaned up.
> 
> Overall it sounds like mini drawn frames are as valuable as any other drawn frame in an apiary.


Daniel Y.....

How you see. 

:applause::applause::applause:


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Rolande (Aug 23, 2010)

Jim 134 said:


> You do know the little Mating Nuc have a hard time drawing comb


I think it has a lot to do with the over all condition of the bees making up the mating nuc; not least, the level of what we might call colony cohesion.

The enclosed photos: taken this last summer (the worst, weatherwise, that the UK has had for decades). The first is of a foundationless half shallow frame which had only been in use for a couple of days -they can actually be drawn far faster -again, there are lots of factors at play. The second, not entirely relevant, is an older fully drawn example of what these units can do.

I think that there are few rights and wrongs in the bee game; no matter how much we debate these things, practical field work will often show us how wrong we are!


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Well I have my two minis setting here in front of me for the last couple of days. Michaels suggestion to look at Davids Bifold frame works well for the 4 frame mini. But the guy writes numbers in the wrong language. Good easy answer for how to fit mini frames in a full size hive though. So far about the only difference I see is how many frames I have to build.

I am going to work on a 4 way next. Like I said I want to try as many as I can make and these are all coming out of found wood. A little known wood that grows in big metal boxes randomly scattered about urban locations. The biggest cost savings is that it grows pre cut into boards.


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