# First time queen breeder



## Beewrangler (Feb 20, 2010)

I have just purchased the Nicot Queen Rearing System from Brushy Mountain. I will be putting it to use this spring. If things go well I would like to start selling queens soon after. What I am having trouble with is the math and the logistics of producing large quantities of queens at once (multiple batches at once, consecutive batches). Is there anyone that can help me with this. I understand that to produce large batches i will probably have to start grafting sooner rather than later. When I do start grafting should I make wax cups or will plastic cups do just as good? Does anyone know of a grafting class somewhere in Kansas, Nebraska, or Oklahoma? Any help here would be greatly appreciated.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Having your equipment ready is paramount. Doing you math runs like this: How many boxes do you have? How many frames with brood, pollen, and honey? Knowing this, how many finishing / mating boxes can you run? That is how many queens you can run in a batch. Most guys put dividers into a standard box and run full-depth frames. Dividing into 3 with 1/4 inch Lauan seems to work for 3 sets of 3, but there are lots of different systems in use. You can run 2 batches consecutively, then give them a break and let them catch up on honey and pollen duty. Your queen bank and 3-hole cages need to be ready and you need to do a practice run at making queen candy. For my own use, I'd make up some 6"x5" push-in cages. We know natural wax cups work, so make a forming stick and a double melter.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Dont get in trouble by trying too many new things for the first time... I suggest ordering plastic cups... they actually give us a slightly better take anyway, but that could just be our procedures or situation.

I do not know of grafting classes in your area, but keep asking, you may be able to at least find a local guy that has been doing it a while that can show you hands on.

We use german stainless needles, plastic cells with wooden cups to ease handling, and 5 frame swarm/nuc boxes as primers. There are some differences in the way that a large breeder will operate as opposed to a side-liner... take that into account... the Nicot system may work fine for the number of queens that you need to raise... for us grafting is the only option... I think I saw in another thread that you only have about 18 hives to work with... this will seriously limit your operation especially considering that this will be your first time, because you will make some mistakes (which is GOOD, because that is how we learn, and because every location and situation is different only YOU will truly know what will work best in your operation), and the weather will humble your operation at times too.

You need bees and bee resources to create nucs for mating your new queens... you can do this in many ways each one has its ups and downs, all work for the most part...

You will need to get your schedule down for grafting, planting, and catching... start by deciding how long you want to give your new queens to lay before you judge them and catch them, then fill in the blanks in between to make grafting and planting work to that schedule.

Once you have decided on your mating equipment and your schedule, get everything ready... you will need to decide what you will use for what need... you will need to draw comb for the nucs or for the colonies that you pull the nucs from to help them build back up more quickly... you will need to know your flows and your weather... a freeze snap or a week long rain can cause trouble when you are trying to build cells and hatch queens...

Most importantly, keep your operation somewhat flexible... there are a lot of things that HAVE to be done on an exact schedule, so give yourself a little space in the things that you can so that when things get off track it will not through off your whole schedule.

Hope it helps!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

As Rudyard Kipling said "you can never have too much red wine or ammunition". If he raised queens he would have added "or too many queen cells..." Especially until you get the hang of it I would not assume too many cells will get accepted. There are many things that affect acceptance. Top among them how crowded the bees are and how well fed they are.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

All very true.


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## Dave360 (Apr 12, 2010)

For consecutive queens find a copy of old walter kelly book (pamphlet) raising queens


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Just a request to Michael Bush, Michael Palmer, Russel Apiaries, any others in the know...Could we compose a bibliography for queen rearing? I'm seeing so much good material here re. methods, books, pamphlets, not to mention the awesome how-to's. Thank you, and please keep it coming! - kc


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Just curious Russell, you mentioned that 18 hives would SERIOUSLY limit a hobbyist's ability to raise queens. For us hobbyists, how many hives do you think you would need before you would start raising your own queens?

I realize it's possible to raise queens with only one hive, but not very practical. If you have two or three hives and are looking to do splits, it's still more economical to purchase queens than it is to spend the time to learn and buy the equipment needed to raise them (either nicot, or grafting). But at a certain point all the queens become expensive (especially when you aren't in it for profit). Just looking for a personal opinion.

Personally, I'm not at the point where I need to raise queens. But I'd like to, especially so I can get a system down so that when I do NEED to raise queens, I can.


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## Beewrangler (Feb 20, 2010)

Good question. I wish I had thought of it. And just for the record, my colony count in early December was 16 not 18. My plans are to use my 3 strongest for queen mother, drone mother and starter/finisher. The rest will be split into 3 or 5 frame nucs to use as mating nucs and increase colonies. I'm planning on 3 to 4 cycles of 10 or so cells at this time depending on how resources work out. If things go good this season I may try over wintering some or all the nucs that I make. I have some double screens made up just for the occasion, also will probably use double nucs hopping these tow things will increase my chances of success.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

kilocharlie said:


> ...Could we compose a bibliography for queen rearing?


_Beekeeping At Buckfast Abbey,_ Brother Adam, O.B.E., 1975, British Bee Publications Ltd.

_In Search Of The Best Strains Of Bees,_Brother Adam, 1983, Northern Bee Books

_Breeding The Honeybee,_ Brother Adam, 1987, Northern Bee Books

_Breeding Techniques and Selection for Breeding of the Honeybee,_ Friedrich Ruttner, Translated by Ashleigh and Eric Milner, 1988, The British Isles Bee Breeding Association

_Contemporary Queen Rearing,_ Harry H. Laidlaw, Jr., 1979, Dadant and Sons, Inc.

_Queen Rearing and Bee Breeding,_ Harry H. Laidlaw Jr. and Robert E. Page Jr., Wicwas Press

_Queen Rearing Simplified,_ Vince Cook F.R.E.S., 1986, British Bee Publications, Ltd.


Anyone looking for bee books: www.abebooks.com


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

It really doesn't cost a lot to raise your own queens and it can be done small scale if your in an expansion mode. If you have a queen you feel is good enough to raise from you will need the following equipment.

Cloake Board $24.00
2 Cell Bar Frame w/ 100 cell cups $17.00
2 Chinese grafting tools $10.00
Total $51.00

1 Hive for raising cells. Make splits from the rest.
Put the cells you produce in splits for mating.

If you prodece 20 queens per year they only cost you $2.55 each.

Cheap enough.

Johnny


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Johnny, 

The cost associated usually isn't just the $51 worth of equipment you mentioned (which, of course, could easily be much higher. Most starting out don't feel comfortable with just a grafting tool and a cell cup. You might need classes, videos, books, ect.). But assuming you do spend the $51 on the equipment. Then you spend your time on it (could be valuable, depending on the individual). Your first few go arounds at it you are probably going to screw something up. You may end up with queens, maybe not. If you do, you might not end up with top quality queens.

So you take a few extra cracks at it. Each time costs more time, more cell cups, more frustration (possibly).

In the mean time, I can get queen cells for $3.50-$5. Bare bones queen cells for the equipment you gave is $2.55. Or I could get them for a dollar more. 

Plus, if I only need five per year for the next couple years, it would be cheaper for me to buy them at $3.50-$5 per cell, rather than spend the $51 on equipment and get some potentially poor performing queens.

I'm with you in the end. I get that it doesn't cost that much and isn't that hard. I'm just wondering from an economy of scale point of view what point in your beekeeping operation should you be concerned about raising queens. If you need 20 per year that might do it. But to the hobbiest that needs five per year?


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

Thats why I said, if your in an expansion mode, it makes sense. If you only need 5 or 10 I agree. But if you need more its worth it.

Also, what if there is not a local source for those queen cells? Anybody with access to a computer and 1 or 2 books can get all the info needed to raise a few queens. If your time is that valuable then you shouldn't be fooling with bees

Set up 45 cells in a frame and most anybody can get 10 of 15 accepted. If you have 15 to 20 hives drones shouldn't be a problem unless you are trying too early. I see no problem getting a better queen than you can get mail order. Have you checked the post on here about bought queen quality.

Just my thoughts.

Johnny


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Specialkayme said:


> Just curious Russell, you mentioned that 18 hives would SERIOUSLY limit a hobbyist's ability to raise queens. For us hobbyists, how many hives do you think you would need before you would start raising your own queens?


That was meant to be about raising queens for resale... the first and most important reason is the lack of stock to select from... with that few colonies, there will certainly be some that are better than others and they may truly be exceptional bees, but its just not enough to seriously select from for certain traits, and using the best colony (1 colony) even to raise queens for splits will create an inbreeding situation that will eventually leave you with poor stock... 

the next reason is the lack of bee resources... nucs will need to be stocked, which requires bulk bees... wax needs to be drawn and prtected when not in use, which requires heavy bees in the hives... so you can end up shaking bulk bees from hives to stock nucs, and not having enough bees to build the wax (this is just an example using mini-nucs...we draw fresh frames every year, and use hives to store honey in mini frames for the nucs as well...

So basically, you need hives to select from (and when grafting I suggest several are used for queen mothers, and those hives should NOT be used for drone production at the same time)... you need hives to protect, fill, and build frames so you can offer the proper nutrition for your queens... you need hives to produce bulk bees to stock your nucs... you need hives for drone production (if you do not treat, this may need to be as many as 2 hives per every 10 queen nucs)...

That is for raising queens for resale, but for the hobbiest that just wants to raise their own queens for splits, I would say no less than 10 hives for every 50 queens... assuming that they are all good strong doubles the year before and they are all good quality genetics that you will want to use for mating...

I would use 2 for building the cells, and graft from 3 others, and use two for building nothing but mini nuc frames and the last 3 for providing 15#s of bulk bees for stocking the nucs, and all of them except for the three that you grafted (try to minimize drone production in grafting stock) should be used for drone production.

Hope this helps!


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I will add that bringing in queens from other sources is not a bad idea... Even I buy queens, in fact I am probably a very good customer for most queen breeders. lol. The reason for bringing in other stock is diversity... if you have 20 good hives and you make 20 splits with queens grafted from one of those hives, you now have 21 hives with the same lineages, and repeat this process a few times and you may have a lot more hives, but the quality of your stock will suffer sooner or later... 

Bringing in quality (note that I said Quality... there are many great breeders out there, that have excelent queens) queens will just add a few more lineages back into your yards... 

I am a firm believer in breeding from your best stock (especialy because your bees winter in Your climate), but bring in other stock also, test it, add it to the hives that you select FROM... see if it is worthy... but no matter what, you need to keep a level of diversity in your breeding program... even in a small one.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

rrussell6870 said:


> I am a firm believer in breeding from your best stock (especialy because your bees winter in Your climate), but bring in other stock also, test it, add it to the hives that you select FROM... see if it is worthy... but no matter what, you need to keep a level of diversity in your breeding program... even in a small one.


If one is using the local "feral" stock in their breeding program, this would provide lots of diversity since other beekeepers get their queens and bees from a variety of sources.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Thanks Russell. That helps alot.

I was thinking along the same lines, just making sure I was thinking correctly.

You mentioned 10 hives to produce 50 queens. I was actually thinking much less on the number of queens. It was my hope for the next couple of years to create half the queens I needed, while purchasing the other half. This means I increase genetic diversity while also improving my queen rearing skills. That way I could start off with rearing 20-30 queens per season, and then selecting the best handful of those to overwinter with.


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## Beewrangler (Feb 20, 2010)

Barry said:


> If one is using the local "feral" stock in their breeding program, this would provide lots of diversity since other beekeepers get their queens and bees from a variety of sources.


How many "Generations" would be considered "Feral"?

I get all my stock from cut outs, mainly from residential areas, in a fairly large city with no known managed colonies near by. So I am assuming that the swarms that took up residence in these walls came from "wild" stock over a few generations. If I breed from this "feral" stock would that be enough diversity in a breeding program?


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

If you breed from only one queen it is no more diverse that selected stock.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Broke-T said:


> Cloake Board $24.00
> 2 Cell Bar Frame w/ 100 cell cups $17.00
> 2 Chinese grafting tools $10.00
> Total $51.00


...personally, this seems way too high.
cloak board is not needed....you are better off with an extra box, bottom and top...it will be more useful in more situations than a $24 cloake board.

cell bar frames? really? i make these up in just a few minutes with standard frames ($.52 each), a little scrap wood and a stapler.

cups are less than 6 cents each.

deknow


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

More thoughts on diversity. I agree that more is better. 

But for a small producer that has a queen that is very good and wants to raise more like her, I don't feel that is a big problem. If her hive is really good she is probably well mated and you have several sister subfamilies in the hive. 

Lets say she mated to 15 drones that are not closely related. If you graft from this queen, the larva you select have an equal chance to be from any of these 15 drones. So queens you produce are 1/2 sisters from 15 different drones.

These queens now mate. If you currently have any diversity in your hives you will be producing drones that are unrelated to your queen mother and to each other. You have drones produced from ferel hives in your are. You also have drones from any neighbors hive. Your 1/2 sister are now mated to a diverse group of drones.

When these queens are put in hives and begin to lay, they are producing a pretty diverse group of workes within each hive. As long as problem queens are pinched so their genetics don't go foward we can make progress. 

I have heard of large queen producers producing thousands of queens from one breeder queen . Who has the most diversity? 

Johnny


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Beewrangler said:


> If I breed from this "feral" stock would that be enough diversity in a breeding program?


There have been mixed signals on this one. It's been said that feral stock is simply swarms from the neighboring beekeeper and that it is not desirable. But then again, since most beekeepers are buying "good" queens routinely, all these feral bees should be great stock to work with, unless breeders are producing stock that lose all the good traits in first generation swarms. Seems the target is a moving one.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Beewrangler said:


> How many "Generations" would be considered "Feral"?
> 
> I get all my stock from cut outs, mainly from residential areas, in a fairly large city with no known managed colonies near by. So I am assuming that the swarms that took up residence in these walls came from "wild" stock over a few generations. If I breed from this "feral" stock would that be enough diversity in a breeding program?


Well first lets discuss the term "diversity"... when we use that term we can be talking about one (or both) of two different types...

1. Breed diversity is developed by crossing "strains" of honey bees in hopes of blending their desirable natural characteristics...

2. Lineage diversity is developed by crossing "lines" of honey bees that come from different origins, but are of the same "strain"...

The goal in good breeding programs is to accomplish both for strains and Lineage diversity for pure stock... Notice that lineage diversity is the goal No Matter What... 

For example, our AMM pure stock was originally started from AMM colonies that were captured from feral hives many, many years ago... we had hundreds of these colonies that we collected over the years... when VD began killing off the feral colonies, we started ordering pure AMM queens from several other countries and have continued this each year... 

Now to the genetics of the "feral" colonies... they may very well be great genetics that were produced by either a breeder or from the rare surviving genetics of pre-mite feral colonies... or... they could be from a mass produced cheap line of queens where the breeder did not follow the strict policies that we have been discussing in this thread and in the Emergency Queen thread... or... they could be from the excessive swarming genetics of the russians and russian hybrids that have been scattered across the country and can produce 3-4 swarms each season... 

The trouble is, you would want to know just what they were and how they measure up BEFORE you begin producing queens from them... If the "feral" colonies are all that you have, I would suggest selecting a few different queens from good breeders and try them out to see what quality the "feral" stock is compared to the breeders stock. Like I always say, study, study, study your hives... this way you will know what produces more surplus, brood, resistance, wax, gentleness, and so on...

I myself would run test them all in equal playing fields and see just how much better one was than the other.

But to answer your question directly... No. using "feral" colonies does not necessarily mean that you will add any more diversity. You have to keep in mind that the sorce of the colony is unknown, thus twenty cut-outs during one year could indeed be from the same lineage and strain, and you could be just crossing the one family back and forth depending more on situational benifits than genetic ones... I say "could" because it also "could not", but without knowing it is just a roll of the dice and too risky to your apiaries.

Hope this helps!


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Broke-T said:


> for a small producer that has a queen that is very good and wants to raise more like her, I don't feel that is a big problem. If her hive is really good she is probably well mated and you have several sister subfamilies in the hive.
> 
> Lets say she mated to 15 drones that are not closely related. If you graft from this queen, the larva you select have an equal chance to be from any of these 15 drones. So queens you produce are 1/2 sisters from 15 different drones.
> 
> ...


All good points... I like to think of a graft from one frame as having a mix of 12-18 half sister mixes... and of course I always push for breeders to use drone stock that is from known different lineages than the grafting stock, and limit drone production from the grafting stock colony (queen mother)...

The issue can be the amount of genetics passed through the queen compared to that of each of her mates... and the drones produced by each queen from the single graft... there is always a chance of inbreeding some in any open mating operation, but as a rule of thumb, we make absolutely every effort to limit the possibilities...

I have seen inbreeding at its finest when a small honey producer started his operation with 100 queens that came from a small breeder that only grafted off of one hive... two years later the honey producer grafted off of one colony and requeened all 99 of his other colonies with those queens... the next year he chose the best colony and repeated the process... it took only 6 years before he had massive winter losses excessive superceding and his average crop went from 205# per hive down to 48# per hive... on the seventh year brood diseases wiped out all of his colonies...

The chain effect of creating too many sisters for the same lineage can get overwhelming quickly...

I agree that grafting from one great colony is not a problem for a small operation, but I would suggest that the queens that are produced in that graft be separated into different yards and used more for drones to add small amounts of the good queens genetics over time to the other colonies in each yard, all while bringing in other queens for future lineage diversity.

The queen producer that produces thousands of queens off of one colony are the ones most responsible for the dwindling queen quality in our country...

We graft from upto fourty colonies per cycle in order to stagger the cells as they are planted in the mating nucs... this way when we catch queens to fill orders, we will be sending queens from upto 40 different queen mothers to our customers... this keeps the customers from requeening their entire operation with genetics from one queen, which could start the process that I mentioned earlier. Also drone production is controlled as much as possible, and rotated at least once per year in order to keep fresh lineages in the mix.

Hope this helps!


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Maybe all us would be queen producers should consider getting out of our own backyards a bit in the interest of diversity. Get to know some beekeepers around you who have "good" bees and take some mating nucs to their yards ever now and then. Increase your diversity while keeping it local.

People around here used to loan bulls back and forth all the time. Same principle.


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

Being cattle breeders ourselves I wish there was a way we could easily swap genetics similar to AI breeding from top Bull Studs. Finding someone who would swap queens for queens would be good start. Put them out and evaluate under your conditions. Select best and cull the rest. Which is a part we tend to forget. I think you can make as much progress culling the bottom end as you can selecting the top end.

Johnny


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

*>>I wish there was a way we could easily swap genetics similar to AI breeding *


You can,and many queen/bee breeders do,with II,instrumental insemination.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Queen breeders swap queens all the time... I usually buy queens from other breeders for a few years to test them before I start considering swapping future stock with them... simply because, like broke t mentioned, you can breed down more quickly than you can breed up... it is very important to requeen poor colonies immediately... as the poor quality genetics that one colony in a yard produces can effect all the colonies in the long run...

In our operation we have a minimum standard that every colony must live up to... and the standards are strict, so if its not a great hive, it fails the test... then it is requeened and removed from the list of hives to be selected from... we have many thousands of hives, so selection actually takes the majority of our efforts.


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

II in bee and AI in cattle are just tools for insimination. With AI the top 1/10 of proven bulls are selected, collected and made available to anyone who wants to buy that semen.

II in bees is mostly a way to ensure purity and make sure queens are mated with multiple drones. Not a way to share the top genetics around the country. An II queen is no better than her parents.

Johnny


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

*II in bees is mostly a way to ensure purity and make sure queens are mated with multiple drones. Not a way to share the top genetics around the country. *

I agree it can be used to ensure purity,or to ensure specific crosses.
And drone semen from certain strains is sent all round the world,for the very reason of the genetics,but obviously not as much as in a bull.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Pete is right, we do purchase drone semen from time to time, especially when live shipments are prohibited... II is a useful method for producing specific and controlled crosses... breeder queens are those that have either been developed through II or have undergone strict examination by expert breeders to be sure of their mated quality and performance... in my experience, naturally mated queens are far more productive than II queens, and certified naturally mated breeder queens should be at least a year of age to be sure of their mated quality and genetic purity or cross.

That said, breeders are best used for grafting purposes only.

Hope this helps!


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Specialkayme said:


> Thanks Russell. That helps alot.
> 
> I was thinking along the same lines, just making sure I was thinking correctly.
> 
> You mentioned 10 hives to produce 50 queens. I was actually thinking much less on the number of queens. It was my hope for the next couple of years to create half the queens I needed, while purchasing the other half. This means I increase genetic diversity while also improving my queen rearing skills. That way I could start off with rearing 20-30 queens per season, and then selecting the best handful of those to overwinter with.


Just wanted to say that your plan here is... Poetry... you will do well. Taking the time to do things right and build the very best stock that you can is a practice that seems to have long been forgotten, and is Exactly what our industry needs. Let me know if you need anything, I would love to see you become a successful breeder one day.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Thanks Russell, that means alot.

If all goes according to plan I should be doing my first batch of queens this spring (other than the 'get your hand held in grafting class' batch). From there, if I get any keepers, I'll boil them down to what I need. Between those queens, and the ones I ordered from you I should be set for this spring.

I'm sure I'll be in touch with you about questions or problems as they come up, especially since you are always so kind to reply in such vivid detail.


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## kwest (May 16, 2009)

queen rearing doesn't have to cost a thing. find your best queen pull her and a few frames of bees and put them in a nuc at a new location. make sure that queens old hive was busting at the seams with bees before you do this. the hive you took the queen from will raise normally at least a few queens. cut out the queen cells before they hatch ( make sure you figure right i screwed this one up ) make some queen mating nucs and put one cell in each nuc. all it takes is being willing to make some extra splits and having some extra equipment. free of charge. my first go round i got 2 new hives each with a really nice queen. much nicer queens than i had been buying. i would have gotten 6 queens if i would have figured right. i have yet to find a queen source close to me. i have been paying $30-$40 a piece for queens so raising a few is really cheap for me. one thing with beekeeping is you dont have to spend alot of $ on all the bells and whistles.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

The system you are talking about kwest involves producing emergency queens, which is a disputed topic in and of itself: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249524


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## Beewrangler (Feb 20, 2010)

Specialkayme said:


> You mentioned 10 hives to produce 50 queens. I was actually thinking much less on the number of queens. It was my hope for the next couple of years to create half the queens I needed, while purchasing the other half. This means I increase genetic diversity while also improving my queen rearing skills. That way I could start off with rearing 20-30 queens per season, and then selecting the best handful of those to overwinter with.


rrussell,

What do you think the minimum number of queens would be that should be bought in a year for someone that only produces 20 to 30 queens a season to maintain diversity? Could I buy one queen to, maybe two just in case one fails, to use as a drone mother and then use one of my existing queens as a queen mother? Or should I start from scratch each year with new stock for both drone and queen mothers? Is there a book out there that explains this whole thing in detail? Even though I am only planning on producing a few queens a year I don't want to screw up the genitics that I have.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I look forward to Russell's response, as I'm sure it will be much more in-depth and explanative than mine, but I'm assuming you will need to purchase more than one queen a year if you are looking to breed between 20-30 queens a year.

If you have 30 hives, and you order one queen and create 29 on your own (all sisters), you are essentially giving those 29 queens a 96% chance of breeding with the same genetic material they are made up with, since 29/30 of the hives are the same. Next year you are giving them a 92% chance, then a 88% chance (year one had 29/30 queens of the same genetic composition, year two 28/30, year three 27/30, and so on, all dependent on how you graft and select for queens).

Those percentages are somewhat high, and can be reduced if you use the new queen as drone production, or vary the grafts you make, but even still you are almost ensuring that after 5 years you have pure inbred stock. That, of course, assumes that you arn't swapping genetic material with neighboring hives, which you almost always are. Even still, you are leaving alot to chance.

As far as the number you should order, I couldn't tell you that, or recommend a book. I leave that to those better than I.


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

I just started grafting last year after attending a class by Larry Connor. I think you will find grafting much easier than anticipated, as long as your not trying to produce 100's of cells(My first batch was around 90% accepted). The hard part, in my opinion, is the breeding. I would recommend Queen Rearing Essentials by Larry Connor.


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## Beewrangler (Feb 20, 2010)

I just finished Queen Rearing Essentials and it didn't really touch on breeding at all.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Beewrangler said:


> rrussell,
> 
> What do you think the minimum number of queens would be that should be bought in a year for someone that only produces 20 to 30 queens a season to maintain diversity? Could I buy one queen to, maybe two just in case one fails, to use as a drone mother and then use one of my existing queens as a queen mother? Or should I start from scratch each year with new stock for both drone and queen mothers? Is there a book out there that explains this whole thing in detail? Even though I am only planning on producing a few queens a year I don't want to screw up the genitics that I have.


You can get away with 10% additions each season (keep in mind that you MUST pinch the weakest colonies after testing new queens... even if its the ones you just brought in). So if you have 20 hives, bring in two (dont include the number of splits that you will make, just use the number of hives that you will have while breeding)... use them for 12 months on an equal playing field... 

It is so hard for many of us to pinch a queen, or not to feed during a long dry summer... just keep in mind that you are creating something better... if you do not remove the weak and blend the best, you will only hinder their progress... In their natural state the strong survive and then the surviving blend together... Same principle, only we control the blending somewhat to add production, gentleness, and color. If they do well through spring, but stop in summer end up not making it through winter because they miss the fall flow, there is something wrong... bees are just that... bees. If they fail to perform like bees, then they have mutated in some way or another and that line must end. Hope that makes sense...:scratch:

Now on to selecting drone and grafting stock... I select my best all around colonies by using a scoring method that calculates scores given to each hive for each area of performance during each test (which is often)...

Some colonies may not be the best "all-round" but they score higher in one area than any others (ie... honey production- one hive produces more than any other in the yard, but is a little bit more aggressive than most)... these colonies can be studied further to find the origin of the excelling trait, or can be used for drone stock (note... excelling stock should be no more than 10% of your drone stock... the rest should be you best "all-round")...

In choosing queen stock, sort through you "all-round" stock and pick 4 hives by studying the queens laying rate, size, vigor, and the most common color of the bees in the hive (a light queen in a hive with mostly light bees will produce mostly light queens, same thing goes for dark colors)

Each year you want to select different stock to graft from and rotate drone combs. Tip: you can put a colored stripe on the queen mother hive (different color for each one) and a colored dot on each colony that her daughters were used in... this will help you keep up with each lineage and it will make it easier to study their progress and see the effects of your selections.

I have added a section for queen trading on my site for you guys to use to start swaping stock or even selling stock.

Hope this helps!


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## kwest (May 16, 2009)

ok specialk what if you crowd down a colony leaving the queen in and let them build swarm cells on newly drawn foundationless combs. then we have moved away from the emergency cell. Fat bee man raises queens like this all the time I believe. The two queens i raised last summer are doing well and they are fat beutiful queens, much larger than the queens that i have bought. you can still raise a few queens cheep i believe. but as i said queens up by me cost $30-$40 by the time i ship them up here.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

The trouble with that is that they probably WILL swarm. There are other ways to take advantage of the swarming impulse though.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Kwest: you could do it that way, provided they have ample food. But, as Mr. LaFerney mentioned, timing is critical. Once you start a swarming impulse, it's hard to stop it. Sometimes with a colony, if you find a sealed swarm cell the colony has already made up their mind. If you remove the swarm cells they could just swarm anyway, leaving you with nothing. I've had it happen with uncapped swarm cells too. So sure, it's possible, and very cheap. But if you lose even 10% of the colonies as a result, it isn't worth it to me. If queens are worth $30-40 and 10 frames of brood are worth $100 (about that) and you lose the colony 10% of the time, each queen will have an inherent facilitative cost of about $14 (you lose $140 10% of the time). That's not counting your expenses in rearing queens. Too pricy for me.

*>I select my best all around colonies by using a scoring method that calculates scores given to each hive for each area of performance during each test (which is often)...<*

You wouldn't be interested in sharing that scoring sheet, would you? 

*>I have added a section for queen trading on my site for you guys to use to start swaping stock or even selling stock.<*

Fantastic! I can't wait to get queens worth while enough for me to trade on there (other than the ones I buy, of course).


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## SL Tx (Sep 17, 2006)

I'm confused...the reason to buy the (expensive) queen rearing system is to take the grafting step out of the process....and for small scale it has worked great for me, especially with a Cloake Board to minimize disruption for starter->finisher.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

kilocharlie said:


> Just a request to Michael Bush, Michael Palmer, Russel Apiaries, any others in the know...Could we compose a bibliography for queen rearing? I'm seeing so much good material here - kc


Doubt it.

I've been reading these guys and it seems as with all things beekeeping, each has their own method, not always compatable.

For a beginner, it's probably best to read up various methods used by people who have been successful, and try some differing methods yourself till you're getting good results.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Big THANK YOU!!! Michael. That book list and all the info on the thread Old Timer started (rearing queens without grafting) should improve my queen score. Last year's efforts were fair-to-middlin', not spectacular. I got too busy catching swarms, which brought in plenty of queens, although not all were good queens. My chopsticks method may have killed a larva or two, but it worked for the most part. My hook didn't work, nor did my syringe tube idea. We can learn by doing, but we can save a lot of doing by reading and try what works first. More reading list suggestions are welcome!


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Thank you, Oldtimer. Your post on the cut cell method and your answers to everyone's questions are better than most books! Several folks have mentioned conflicting information, and incompatible methods are probably a good source of this.

Special Kayme and rrussel - thanks you for the buy-some-and-rear-your-own queens plan. I fully agree with culling the bad stock, and wonder if the evaluation scoring system is similar to Harry Laidlaw, Jr.'s on pages 143 and 144 of Contemporary Queen Rearing or if you have added some winning tweaks?


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

By the way, rrussell, do you also cull drones from your bad colonies as immediately as you re-queen them? Same question to anyone else?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

kilocharlie said:


> By the way, rrussell, do you also cull drones from your bad colonies as immediately as you re-queen them? Same question to anyone else?


Absolutely... In fact drone colonies get just as much if not more attention during selection than grafting (queen mother) colonies. Not only do we cull the bad, but we breed the best as well.

I discuss this in depth on several threads here on beesource as well as on my site... here is a link. Hope it helps.

http://russellapiaries.webs.com/apps/forums/topics/show/4121547-selecting-drone-colonies


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> Doubt it. I've been reading these guys and it seems as with all things beekeeping, each has their own method, not always compatable. For a beginner, it's probably best to read up various methods used by people who have been successful, and try some differing methods yourself till you're getting good results.


Exactly. There are just too many variables in bee keeping, making every location, strain, forage supply, and operation completely different. Books written by someone in the north east, and read by someone in the south west will not get the south western bee keeper very far if he does not study his own colonies with much more diligence than he studies the findings of the author.

It is important to learn from others, but use what you read as the building blocks instead of the foundation of your approach to bee keeping.

Your foundation should always be YOUR bees, and what they teach you... The rest should be taken as an "idea" instead of as an experience...

It seems too often people make the wrong move because they just "knew" that it would work because it did for an author... 

The best way to become successful is to build your operation and your practices around what works and what doesnt, learn from YOUR experiences, and grow from them. Your own experience from your own bees will never lead you astray. 

Hope this helps! (wow... I almost sound like a fortune cookie:scratch NEW TOPIC! lol


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

kilocharlie said:


> I fully agree with culling the bad stock, and wonder if the evaluation scoring system is similar to Harry Laidlaw, Jr.'s on pages 143 and 144 of Contemporary Queen Rearing or if you have added some winning tweaks?


Not even close...  That system is like a horse and cart compaired to a F-22. :lookout: lol.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Well, thanks, Robert, and thanks again. When guys with your's and Oldtimer's qualifications warn against taking books too seriously, and on the exact same reasons - individuality of apiary situation - I take notice. Still I think that ol' boy over there in England, Brother Adam, whom Michael Palmer includes 3 of his books in that list, might be able to pass along a few gems that I might not have thought up just yet. Sure, he raised Buckfast bees over there across the pond, and I catch swarms of Sespe substrain of mexican bees in California, but in all those years he might have thought of something that could help me.
A Greek fellow whose father had 200 hives told me to build a few observer hives - because I'd learn more faster that way, which is right in keeping with what you and Oldtimer are saying. A gal from the Ozarks wrote that she spent as much time with her girls as she could. I noticed how adept she was at observing what they were doing and her knowledge of the plant biology of her apiaries, particularly the timing of blooms. I probably have as twice as many books on local plants as I do on bees, and have lived off them almost every time I've gone hiking since I was about 13 years old. I've always enjoyed the application of book knowledge and practical knowledge to the question at hand. Engineers take a lot of crap for being "bookish", but I also build boats, airplanes, guns, engines, machines, and have helped develop a new engine cycle. Now that I'm making bee boxes and watching them carefully, I figure, "Hey, this bee business has been going on for a few thousand years, why not read what others have done before?" I'll bet you could write a dang, good book, yourself, with your family having been in the game 125 years.
Thanks for the lead to your site. I joined and will spend some time there in the winters, when I'm not modifying my horse cart observation sheet into an F-22.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

kilocharlie said:


> when I'm not modifying my horse cart observation sheet into an F-22.


 LOL! Get after it.


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## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> It is important to learn from others, but use what you read as the building blocks instead of the foundation of your approach to bee keeping.
> 
> Your foundation should always be YOUR bees, and what they teach you... The rest should be taken as an "idea" instead of as an experience...
> 
> ...


Very good advice Robert, thank you. While reading your post couldn't help, but remember my old professor who once said: Ahead of you is four years of hard work, and those of you who complete all the requirements will earn a degree in engineering, which will *HELP *you to become engineers one day. You will learn lots of theoretical stuff, where to find information you need and how to use it, you will develop technical way of thinking etc. etc., and once you use all of that to succesfully complete a project, you will have experience that will allow you to call yourself an engineer.
In a way, his way of thinking applies to beekeeping too. Do you agree?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I do agree... very much so... the materials that are available to learn from are just what he said... Tools. Knowing which tool to use, and when and how to use it can only come from experience... and experience can only come from trying...

Think about it in a different way... let's say you have a vintage vehicle that is in mint condition and you spend every weekend polishing and detailing it and you just can't wait to take it for a nice long cruise as soon as spring arrives... but you crank it (as you do daily, just to keep it lubed), and instead of the usual "purr" you here a distinct "pinging"... so you look and you look, but you just can't figure out what is making that sound...

Would you rather trailer it to a specialty shop that rebuilds vintage models every day and let them take a look... or would you let you cousin Bob bring his first set of shiny new tools over and take care of it for, because he just finished reading a book about old cars?

I would tell Bob to keep reading his book cause he's never getting NEAR my baby...

Im sure you agree... so the question is, why? After all the book that Bob read may have been written by a great mechanic and there may have been some really excellent points in that book about parts that wear out and make "pinging" noises... but the reason Bob and his book are less qualified than the dirty Bubba at the specialty shop that probably didn't even finish high school... is experience... bubba has seen this issue a hundred times, he's made some mistakes and he's learned how to fix the problem in a better way... his experience has given him the ability to adapt to face whatever situation arrives... if the manufacturer of the car happened to use z different part during that one year model, the book may not show it... but bubba will know why its different and he will know what he needs to do to fix it right.

Ok, now I'm certain that I will never be able to sell a single copy if I ever do decide write a book...:doh: so Oldtimer I may have some free time on my hands... wanna go fishing? Lol.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Always up for some fishing Robert it's a popular pastime in these parts. Sold the boat now but luckily my son has one.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I have an armada of boats...  We live on a 33,000 acre lake with 105 miles of shore line... to bad I dont ever get time to actually enjoy it. :doh: We used to be known as the "Pirates of the Ross Barnett". lol. That was back in the days when my schedule looked like this:

Wake up..
Coffee..
FISH..
Coffee..
Dress fish..
Coffee..
Work bees..
Lunch..
Coffee..
FISH..
Give fish to neighbors.. while drinking coffee and talking about fishing..
Work bees..
Dinner..
Coffee..
Sleep.. Dream about coffee, fish, and bees.. lol.

The wife got me on the weekends... IF she woke up early enough to beat me to the boat house!

I would LOVE to catch some NZ fish and of course, drink some NZ coffee. lol. and play with some NZ bees... Maybe January 2013... IF the wife doesnt beat me to the airport. ;-)


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Push out those Moon Beam bees, I'm sure you'll have time to retire after that. Name your price.


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