# Wow! When should I stop adding boxes?



## grantsbees

One of my hives has been blessed with a super queen. OK, maybe that's a stretch but they are definitely a productive colony.

I started out with a package almost exactly 2 months ago. They were installed into my Warre hive with 2 boxes and no comb. In those 2 months, the population has exploded and I now have 2 completely filled boxes and a 3rd one with comb being drawn very quickly! I honestly was not expecting this level of success. I know it's not good to have dead space in a hive once fall comes so I don't want to add a box if they are not going to use it all in time.

Thoughts from fellow Warre beeks??


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## Tenbears

There is a point when the bees will create a honey barrier. The queen will see this as a do not cross zone and everything above that will be surplus. In your area two boxes should be ample for overwintering three if you feel the need. Anything more can be removed prior to winter and manipulated into the hive. The excess you can harvest.


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## grantsbees

Tenbears said:


> There is a point when the bees will create a honey barrier. The queen will see this as a do not cross zone and everything above that will be surplus. In your area two boxes should be ample for overwintering three if you feel the need. Anything more can be removed prior to winter and manipulated into the hive. The excess you can harvest.


Are you saying that if they have filled up all 3 boxes (assuming 2 boxes are filled with capped honey) before the end of the season, I should be able to harvest the top box? This would leave two boxes for the colony - at least one completely filled with honey.


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## Tenbears

Basically. I kept bees in Ashburnham And Ludlow Ma. for a great many years. (Pre Varroa Not that it has anything to do with stores) and always overwintered with no more than 2 deep hive bodies. My annual success was in the 90 Percentile. I currently do so in the North Western Pennsylvania lake effect snow belt with great success.


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## grantsbees

Yikes! All 3 of my boxes are full! What should I do?????


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## lostboy

Order or build some more hive boxes, they're really simple to make. I built three complete warres, two four box and one three box with $62. of rough cut full thickness 1x10 lumber.


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## grantsbees

I may need to use the feeder box from my weaker hive. Have you lifted 3 full boxes on your own before?


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## lostboy

No I haven't and I was actually surprised at how heavy two top boxes and the quilt were on one of my hives when I took a look inside last weekend, and being a life long gym rat I'm fairly strong. The top box is probably the heaviest maybe move that with the quilt and then the next two together. By full do you mean all built out and capped, if not maybe they still have enough room to work while you get some proper hive boxes.


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## grantsbees

By full I mean full of completely drawn comb and all space covered with bees. I may just let them do their thing for the rest of the season. Is there a time of season when they won't swarm anymore?


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## lostboy

I've read about guys catching late swarms so I would think they'd swarm anytime they think they run out of room to grow. maybe you could post the question on the swarm forum, unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a lot of traffic on this forum, except for us newbees trying to figure things out a we go. I gotta check out my hives this week to see how my third boxes look, no windows on these boxes just in case they're growing like yours. I'm in a awesome rural area with lots of fields swamps and wood lots. This morning walking the dogs around the hay field across the street I saw tons of my bees all over the sumac and weeds under the power line right of way.


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## lostboy

Glad I checked my real busy hive today. I have a door in the bottom back of my floor so I can put in a feeder or in this case look up into the hive with a mirror and flashlight, and today saw that my third box had 7 out of 8 bar with nice full straight comb, Couldn't tell if she was laying in there yet but she will so I added a 4th box. Hopefully curbing a chance of swarming, we'll see.


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## grantsbees

I've decided to just cap the hive off at 3 boxes. I can easily see this hive growing and using a new box every couple weeks. It's a tough decision, but I need to leave it so I can nadir myself.


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## sakhoney

Grant - just extract some of the honey and put the frames back on the bees


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## grantsbees

sakhoney - with Warre hives, you harvest entire boxes not frames.


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## sakhoney

with some hardware cloth you can harvest just a frame or the whole box


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## jadebees

De-stack them, 1 box at a time. Place them on a safe stand, full of bees, add your bottom box , and assemble the same way in reverse . Whether you want to add boxes or not, the bees need room to store honey. 

The usual rule of thumb is to add a box when the total space is 75 to 80% filled. So... adding 1 box to 3 full boxes gets you to where you need to consider another box. Don't worry, you will take them off, as honey filled boxes later. I reccomend you learn to remove single topbars to make small harvests. Good luck.


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## Bee14me

Glad I'm not the only one with these questions. I started two Warre hives this year, both are now at 4 boxes deep. Two completely full the third is being drawn and I was debating on adding the fourth as of last week but decided they would know best and went for it. I am deciding this all off of observation windows and the amount of traffic both hives have. I am still uncertain as to when to open the hives for inspection, or if it's even really required seeing as they are doing so well.....


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## lostboy

I'm the same as you and Grant, newbee with two warre's , I added the third boxes to both at the same time but for what ever reason one swarmed , so far twice, with me catching one of them. The other is on it's 4th box. I've inspected both hives a couple times to see how things looked, trying to connect things I've read with what I was seeing. Grant, maybe harvest the top box to give them some room, there's still a lot of time for your bees to pull in supplies before winter, goldenrod hasn't even started here yet and that's supposed to be big. They'll still be going out and with no room they might leave. You could throw together a box from 1x lumber from home cheapo pretty easily and just cycle it out down the road.


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## flapbreaker

I'm a newbie as well. Started one two box hive in april and now have 4 boxes. They are starting to partly fill the 4th box. I was not expecting this much production. Everything I read said that you would not harvest honey your first year. Here it is not even August and I'm unsure if I want to add a 5th box. It gets a bit challenging. Does anyone know if it would be a problem to harvest the top box now and then put it on the bottom of the stack, keeping it at 4 boxes?


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## lostboy

You know, that's a good question, I'm going to be in that situation soon too, I think at this time of year if the top two boxes are mostly honey I will harvest the top box and add it back in. In our area they say you can winter on two boxes, I'd prefer three, you never know what kind of winter we'll have. A couple years ago I had three feet of snow on the ground most of the winter, didn't melt until after Easter. Although when I built my hives I built ten boxes three each floors, quilts and roofs so I have options, the boxes are really easy to make, I was thinking of making some out of 2x10's this winter for extra thickness.


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## beegamer

lostboy said:


> I was thinking of making some out of 2x10's this winter for extra thickness.


I'm brand new and am trying to be a Warre purist.  Warre said that too thick can cause bees to eat more honey during the winter instead of less (p 39 BfA) . Not sure if that helps. I'm just a noob quoting Warre.


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## odfrank

move a comb up to ladder the bees up into a top super. being a purist of anything is over rated.


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## lostboy

Yes, I read that too, but not sure if Abbe Warre had very many below zero days in his neck of the woods. We had a mild winter this year but in this little low spot in Western Mass where I live we still had quite a few 25below zero mornings, in March. Any way just a thought, I remember reading somewhere guys were using 2x material for better climate control in the hive, even in hot weather, like the 100degrees it hit here yesterday that my car outside temp reading showed on the way home. Which felt pretty good after putting down 1000tons of asphalt at 290degrees in a wide open parking lot with no shade, yes 1000 tons.


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## johnsof

There's nothing wrong with supering - adding empty boxes to the top - rather than insisting on nadiring. I nadir a box or two in the early spring and after that I super; my experience is that after a certain point in the early summer workers don't really like to keep building down but will continue to build up as long as you keep piling boxes on. Personally I try to keep my hives at 5 or max 6 boxes high as I think the hives get too tippy / top heavy and I don't mind harvesting several times during the summer (mostly doing crush and strain and selling my honey at a premium because of it). It wouldn't surprise me to get to 8 or 9 boxes high if I didn't pull during the summer and that's too high for me.
Odfrank is absolutely right though, you have to have a ladder of comb in a new box whether you nadir or you super. I would put one or two frames / top bars with comb in a new box and super it under the topmost box.
This all flies in the face of the "minimally invasive / minimal maintenance" concept of Warre hive management but if you want to control swarming and get a decent honey harvest you have to actively manage. I've had Warres swarm in late September - in a place where late September is way past the point where nectar is coming in at any real volume and the hives should be winding down. So I no longer believe in "inactive" management, too much swarming and losing hives by virgin queens not getting mated in the latter part of the season.
One last thing - I have 3 boxes for brood in an established hive and then put on a queen excluder for the boxes that I am supering. For a new package I won't use an excluder, I just keep putting on boxes. I have a 3# package this spring that is up to 6 boxes high and I am strongly considering splitting this hive if the flow keeps up over the next several weeks.


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## lostboy

Great info, thanks, that's amazing, six boxes off a package you started this spring, I thought I was doing good at adding a forth a couple weeks ago. Right now I'm concerned about bears, found out yesterday that a guy down the street whose house is set back about 100yards into the woods had three bears destroy his hives a couple days ago, his son put some lead in them with the 12ga, maybe they'll stay away.


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## flapbreaker

Well, I had decided to harvest the top box (4 stack) since the hive seemed to be getting full (3 boxes of comb). This is the first time I've "torn" into my hive. I have inspection windows but you can't tell what's going on in the middle of the box. Turns out that although there is a lot of honey in it they are still using the top box for brood. There was also capped drone cells. I am a bit surprised because everything I've read indicates the queen prefers laying eggs in the newest comb. Obviously the bees don't have internet yet... Needless to say, I put the box back on top and will just plan on adding a 5th box below in a few weeks. One thing I'm not liking about the warre hive is it is apparent that the bees are attaching the comb to the top of the next boxes bars so I'm breaking some comb just to remove a box.


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## lostboy

I slid a strand of fishing line diagonally between the boxes before I separated them, it cut some comb attached to the box below but the bees clean it up.


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## flapbreaker

lostboy said:


> I slid a strand of fishing line diagonally between the boxes before I separated them, it cut some comb attached to the box below but the bees clean it up.


Might have to try that. Still can't figure out why the top box is still being used by the queen. She's supposed to prefer new comb for egg laying. Maybe she's a rookie...


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## grantsbees

Interesting reading all this. I prefer not to add supers as it messes with the top to bottom honey storage and subsequently the ease of harvesting a box without brood. Obviously this could be solved with an excluder, but (imho) that ignores one of Warre's main principles.

I've seen some crazy Warre stacks. 6 is up there! I am going to keep mine at a 3-stack and let the bees work with it. So far, they are full but not over crowded. Since this is my first year I will not harvest this fall. Instead I will do a mid-late spring harvest when I am certain they no longer need the honey.


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## johnsof

grantsbees said:


> Interesting reading all this. I prefer not to add supers as it messes with the top to bottom honey storage and subsequently the ease of harvesting a box without brood. Obviously this could be solved with an excluder, but (imho) that ignores one of Warre's main principles.


I don't want to step on anybody's toes but in the new hive without a queen excluder there is brood in all 6 boxes. And this isn't unique, my experience is that the queen will go up and down and up and down. I no longer believe in the honey barrier or any of that stuff. I've only been doing this a few years and I experiment a lot but if I want boxes without brood to harvest during the summer to keep the hive from getting too tall the only way I can do it is to use an excluder. To each his own but like I said, I really don't like to have the hives get too tall.

The trick is to take full boxes off but immediately replace them with an empty box (with some sort of comb or foundation) and still have enough space for all of the bees as the population is growing, and to try to keep them from swarming. It's not easy and while I prefer not more than 5 boxes high obviously it isn't always possible. It ends up being a lot of hardware; I'm lucky, I guess, being able to make these hives myself. Part of the charm in using the Warrés, I suppose. Pretty easy and not expensive to build.


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## flapbreaker

johnsof said:


> I don't want to step on anybody's toes but in the new hive without a queen excluder there is brood in all 6 boxes. And this isn't unique, my experience is that the queen will go up and down and up and down. I no longer believe in the honey barrier or any of that stuff. I've only been doing this a few years and I experiment a lot but if I want boxes without brood to harvest during the summer to keep the hive from getting too tall the only way I can do it is to use an excluder. To each his own but like I said, I really don't like to have the hives get too tall.
> 
> The trick is to take full boxes off but immediately replace them with an empty box (with some sort of comb or foundation) and still have enough space for all of the bees as the population is growing, and to try to keep them from swarming. It's not easy and while I prefer not more than 5 boxes high obviously it isn't always possible. It ends up being a lot of hardware; I'm lucky, I guess, being able to make these hives myself. Part of the charm in using the Warrés, I suppose. Pretty easy and not expensive to build.


Interesting to know what your experience has been. I also wasn't sure if a guy could employ the excluder in a warre. When would you do that? After the top box was full of comb but not being all honey I presume.


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## johnsof

I only nadir a box or two, depending on how strong the hive is in the early spring. After that I manage like a Lang, meaning I super rather than nadir. As above, my Warré experience is that they'll go up easier than they'll go down. So I can put in an excluder any time, I just make sure to have 3 boxes below for brood and overwinter honey. Then an excluder and a supered box, and if I add more after that it can be above or below the upper box (but above the excluder).


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## grantsbees

johnsof,

Have you been able to lift 3 boxes together by yourself? I'm 6 feet tall, and 2 full boxes was a bit hefty, but it was manageable. Just curious.


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## Bee14me

I've recently lifted both my hives at 3 boxes tall, with out the roof, to nadir a fourth box. It does get rather heavy and I'm 5'8 at 145 lbs. My aggressive hive is now " linking" in the fourth box like crazy, totally full of bees... Guessing I should nadir another box. Surprisingly though the hive that has done the best thus far is now well behind this hive at only three quarters full in the third box and no one in the fourth. Still active but not like the aggressive. Definitely need to build a lift now.... Four boxes will be too much to lift by ones self. Great read so far in this thread. I really thought I was doing well needing a fifth box starting at three lbs packages each this year, but being on your sixth is awesome!


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## flapbreaker

So would it be a bad idea to add an excluder to my top box with the idea of harvesting it in the fall. Would this force the bees to finish it out with honey instead of continuing to use parts of it for brood? I have some very fat drone's that hang out in the top box. I don't see how they would get through a queen excluder if I add one now.


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## Bee14me

Hive manipulation, like a queen extruder, interferes with the dynamic of the colony. If the queen wants to continue to use the upper boxes for brood, I would imagine she has a good reason for doing so. Just my two cents.


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## johnsof

grantsbees said:


> johnsof,
> 
> Have you been able to lift 3 boxes together by yourself? I'm 6 feet tall, and 2 full boxes was a bit hefty, but it was manageable. Just curious.


Well, are we talking spring hives? They don't weigh too much then! Sorry, I know that's not what you mean. 
In my case a Warré standard box weighs about 35# of it's full of honey. I have converted almost completely to using frames and an average Warré frame of capped honey weighs 1600 grams although sometimes I get them over 2000 grams - that's 4.4# per frame. Hard to measure the weight on a top bar comb so I don't know the weight of those.
So can I lift a hive of 3 boxes? Yeah, sure, but I don't want to. Even though you figure the total hive weight is half honey and half brood it's still probably 70 or 75#. 
To be honest I only nadir in the spring and after the initial one or two nadired boxes I super, it's a lot easier for me. 
Yeah, it's not "natural" to super and use a queen excluder - but we're talking about a non-native insect inside a wooden box that we put them in, and oh, yeah, they're all infested with yet another non-native invader that one way or another we have to treat or chances are they'll die...ain't really anything natural about this in the first place, far as I'm concerned. So I will do whatever makes sense and makes it easier. Just me.


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## lharder

The beauty of nadiring is that the box on the bottom, if it doesn't get filled out, won't impede winter preps at all. Just ignore it in your wintering calculations if it doesn't get filled. As long as the top boxes are organized. Its too early to stop giving space and is a recipe for swarming. Even in a dearth I would have that extra box on them. 

Why would one lift the entire hive at once? Stackable boxes are meant to be stacked and unstacked one at a time. The only reason one would do an entire stack at one time is if one had a device to do so to save some time and labor.


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## Bee14me

lharder said:


> The beauty of nadiring is that the box on the bottom, if it doesn't get filled out, won't impede winter preps at all. Just ignore it in your wintering calculations if it doesn't get filled. As long as the top boxes are organized. Its too early to stop giving space and is a recipe for swarming. Even in a dearth I would have that extra box on them.
> 
> Why would one lift the entire hive at once? Stackable boxes are meant to be stacked and unstacked one at a time. The only reason one would do an entire stack at one time is if one had a device to do so to save some time and labor.


The point of lifting the entire hive at once is to maintain heat and hive scent. Not to mention it's a whole lot less stressful.... Again just my observations


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## grantsbees

I've heard some compelling arguments for supering without an excluder. Only problem is that I plan on harvesting in the spring so I would need to take off 2 boxes to nadir one. Not sure that's a good idea...


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## lostboy

I remove boxes individually also, how else can you do an inspection, otherwise you can only look into the top box. I understand the concern of breaking a hive down in cool weather, I'd be opposed to that, but not in the 90+ weather we've been having. When I remove a box I have a spare top cloth I put over the box and I put the quilt back on, for some reason these carni bees I have are very docile no matter what I do. Now, I hived a swarm from one of my warres in to a horizontal top bar hive, talk about manipulation, I'm in that hive moving bars around every week or week and a half still they don't seem to mind.


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## lharder

I wouldn't hesitate to move boxes in 7-10 C temperatures. I wouldn't take frames out, but the cluster stays in the box and stays warm. Minimal disruption.


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## jadebees

It's well known that queens prefer new comb to lay in. If you super a Warre hive she will lay in the new wax in the top box. This makes your harvest more complicated.


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## grantsbees

jadebees said:


> It's well known that queens prefer new comb to lay in. If you super a Warre hive she will lay in the new wax in the top box. This makes your harvest more complicated.


I agree. So ultimately, I had someone help me life the existing 3 boxes and nadir a new one below. It was heavy, but we did it. Now it's 4 boxes tall and that should do it for the year!


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