# To Shave or Not To Shave



## True Beeliever (Feb 23, 2015)

Recently I bought 60 mann lake pf 120 frames preparing for this years season and regressing my bees. My intent is to shave the spacer bars on these to 1 1/4 ". I have talked with a few other beekeepers who embrace the idea of small cell foundation but don't practice shaving their frames. They have stuck with 1 3/8" and say they have no problems. As I understand it, reducing the frame width reduces the bee space and helps overwintering.

This has caused me to wonder how many of us are shaving frames and how many of us are not, and why?

TB


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

This thread covers most of the details of managing with 11 frames in the brood nest. I used my tablesaw to cut down about 100 PF120's a few years ago. The bees do a decent job of drawing them, but they are small cell so it helps if you start with small cell bees. They also work better if coated with additional wax.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?249192

Keep in mind that narrow frames reduce the amount of honey stored because of the space around the 11th frame. This may require leaving more boxes on the hive for wintering. There is a significant benefit in spring buildup which is the primary advantage of narrow frames.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have not bothered with all of the plastic frames (PF120s). I have shaved some but not all of the wood frames. If I had time I would get the rest of them done. It mostly encourages smaller cells in the foundationless combs but also helps with the spring buildup as they can cover more brood. It is not necessary, but it is helpful, especially if you're having issues with natural comb being too large of a cell size. In other words if the bees are not regressing.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#framespacing


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

I built all my brood frames at 1 1/4 only because you can get 9 frames in the 8 frame box.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

I attempt to standardize on 8 frame medium boxes with commercially produced frames.
That said, I have a few deep hive bodies that I "plan" to put bees in to sell.
These deep frames, I would make 1& 1/4, since they would never be used as / in honey supers
Of course, all this depends on my getting off my bottom & getting it done.


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## True Beeliever (Feb 23, 2015)

Thanks everyone,

I think I will stick to my original plan and shave the frames. There seems to be more advantages to be gained then lost. It just kinda surprised me when I talked with these fellas about shaving their frames they hadn't even considered it.

TB


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

I started with all pf-120s shaved down but I'm not going to do that anymore. 
It doesn't seem to me that the bees necessarily need an extra frame in the broodnest, and I space the frames out in the supers. When I looked at going from 9 to 8 frames in the broodnest (I use 8-frame equipment), I realized there will be a lot more spaces for SHB to hide in the end bars if the frames aren't pushed together. Also, if the top bars aren't shaved as well, there is a very narrow gap between top bars; I decided I don't mind a bit more room for the rising heat and bees. That close together even 1/16th of an inch is noticeable. Then again, I plan to harvest the propolis the bees use to plug the end bars... 

I really really wish Mann Lake made the pf-120 foundation in sheets so I could use wooden frames.


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## 357 (May 2, 2016)

JoshuaW said:


> I started with all pf-120s shaved down but I'm not going to do that anymore.
> It doesn't seem to me that the bees necessarily need an extra frame in the broodnest, and I space the frames out in the supers. When I looked at going from 9 to 8 frames in the broodnest (I use 8-frame equipment), I realized there will be a lot more spaces for SHB to hide in the end bars if the frames aren't pushed together. Also, if the top bars aren't shaved as well, there is a very narrow gap between top bars; I decided I don't mind a bit more room for the rising heat and bees. That close together even 1/16th of an inch is noticeable. Then again, I plan to harvest the propolis the bees use to plug the end bars...
> 
> I really really wish Mann Lake made the pf-120 foundation in sheets so I could use wooden frames.


I only jumped into this thread as I am considering shaving my frames but this made me wonder. I'm a n00bee that started this year on small cell wax foundation, with wooden frames, all from Kelley. How does Kelley's small cell foundation differ from Mann Lake's? I'm on 10 frame all medium hardware.

Here's a link: https://www.kelleybees.com/Shop/38/Hives-Components/Foundation/4585/Foundation-for-Medium-Frames
I bought 100 D-Style frames and 100 sheets of their wired small cell foundation (without hooks).


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## johngfoster (Nov 2, 2015)

The foundation on Mann Lake PF 120s/PF100s has deeper cells with more substantial walls to start drawing on. This gives the bees more guidance and they are more likely to draw out the frames, and for the comb to be small cell. Sometimes the bees will rework small cell wax foundation to make it whatever cell size they want (usually something closer to the cell size they were raised on).

An idea that was presented to me by a member here, is to fill the gaps in the uprights of the frame with beeswax. Otherwise, when doing your inspection bees can sometimes get into these gaps and get trapped there when you replace the frame in the hive. Filling these gaps with something will help prevent bees getting in there.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Mann Lake only has the plastic frames/foundation which are small cell. Kelly only has wax foundation that is small cell. All the usual differences apply with the added difference that if you are trying to regress bees from large cell they may not draw the wax correctly while they will draw the plastic.


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## 357 (May 2, 2016)

My package bees seem to be drawing my SC wax foundation pretty well. A few frames have some weird seams with bad cells along the seam but they appear to be following the pattern. I'll try to get some pics if I can tonight.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> Mann Lake only has the plastic frames/foundation which are small cell..


Incorrect. Page 24 of the 2016 Mann Lake catalog shows Small Cell wax in vertical wire and medium brood weights
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/category/page24.html


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I make my own wooden frames at 1 1/4. Shave the plastic ones using a power planer. Set it right and one pass on each side does it. Trick is to do it as soon as you get them to avoid hodgepodge. 

I really prefer foundationless though. The bees seem to really like them and I get lots of good frames drawn.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Incorrect. Page 24 of the 2016 Mann Lake catalog shows Small Cell wax in vertical wire and medium brood weights
http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/category/page24.html

Sorry, I haven't kept up with the current catalogs. I suspect it is Dadant 4.9mm wax then.


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## 357 (May 2, 2016)

FWIW, I got 100 sheets or medium SC wired wax foundation from Kelley for $98. That Mann Lake link looks like $1.65/sheet, nearly twice the price.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

357 said:


> FWIW, I got 100 sheets or medium SC wired wax foundation from Kelley for $98. That Mann Lake link looks like $1.65/sheet, nearly twice the price.


Incorrect -- The equivalent product from ML is http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/product/FN-232.html This is $279 for 275 sheets, or a virtually identical price. Please review the catalog link carefully before making further erroneous statements.


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## 357 (May 2, 2016)

JWChesnut said:


> Incorrect -- The equivalent product from ML is http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/product/FN-232.html This is $279 for 275 sheets, or a virtually identical price. Please review the catalog link carefully before making further erroneous statements.


I did look at the wrong line (deep rather than medium) but for 100 sheets it would be $159.50, or $1.595/sheet. If you want to buy 275, then you would get them for about $1 each. BTW, I have no dog in this fight. I was just trying to help folks get the best price. No ill will was intended.


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## Tom06- (May 11, 2013)

l ran my top bars on a planer. Then built them. I have them in both my hives. The bees are drawing out the wax. I got my small cell from Dadent. Their Frankfort KY store is just about 30 minutes away. It's a great resource to have close by.
The queens have not yet moved up into them. I will have to watch them and if not being used this fall I will remove them. So that the brood and honey are close together.


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