# Is CO2 the best way to kill a hive?



## TurnTex (Mar 6, 2015)

I am sure you will get a lot of responses about how bad you are for wanting to kill bees! I live in AHB territory and sometimes, I feel it is necessary to put them down. I have no use for a super mean colony. By super mean, if they attack and hundreds follow me for 100 yards, they are super mean and I don't want to propagate those genetics. I am a new beekeeper this year with 6 colonies (have a mentor with 40 years exp) and have had 3 colonies I had to do away with. One was a fellow bee club member who had a super hot hive. He said I could have them if I wanted them. I figured he was just the yuppy beekeeper type and was a little hypersensitive. I went out to change the top cover so it could be moved since the old cover was messed up. I used plenty of smoke and it was the middle of a nice, warm sunny day. When I took off the cover, they immediately started pounding my veil. They were so think on the veil it was hare to see out. I got the cover changed and they followed me back to the street to my truck. They would not back off. I had to drive off with my suit on and windows down.

I got them moved the next night to my place. They were 3 medium boxes and I decided it was too dangerous to have around my house with my kid and dogs. I went to the grocery store and bought 10# of dry ice. I had a screen top on them (for moving) and installed a medium box on top of that. I put the dry ice in and covered it all with trash bags duct taped to the box. Left it overnight and the next day, they were all dead and all the comb was salvaged. Worked very well. I have read others who had the bees wake up on them but I believe they did not leave them sealed up long enough.

I also had two water meter boxes recently that a lady called me about. It was on a ranch and they needed to work the cattle. Her cowboy got 25 or so sting just by riding by one of the boxes. I went out and took a look during the day with my suit, hoping to be able to save them and move them. I barely got the grass pulled back and they started piling out. They too were all over me. I left them alone and they followed me 100 yards with me smoking myself the whole time. I decided they were not worth salvaging but I wanted to at least salvage some of the resources in the comb they had drawn. A friend of mine owns a beverage gas company so I borrowed a full bottle of co2 with a hose. I went back the next night and put the hose in the meter box hole and turned the bottle upside down to get liquid co2. I let it run a couple of minutes on low, then popped the lid to see what had happened. All the bees were down with NOTHING moving. I pulled the top and started removing the comb and they started waking up! Worked fast and got all the comb, then put the lid back on and put some moth balls in the box with them and taped the lid shut. That took care of the problem and will hopefully keep any new swarms form moving in.

I DO NOT enjoy putting down a colony but here in AHB territory, I believe it is the best thing to do. Some of my fellow club members capture them and put them in a remote outyard but to me, that is just propagating the problem and who want to have to work super hot hives. I am not afraid of bees or even mean hives, just can't take a chance that they will hurt someone or someone's pet.

Anyway, hope this book of a reply helps some!

I'll put on my fire retardant suit now so the flaming can begin for killing bees!


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

TurnTex said:


> I am sure you will get a lot of responses about how bad you are for wanting to kill bees! I live in AHB territory and sometimes, I feel it is necessary to put them down. I have no use for a super mean colony. I DO NOT enjoy putting down a colony but here in AHB territory, I believe it is the best thing to do. ....
> 
> Anyway, hope this book of a reply helps some!
> 
> I'll put on my fire retardant suit now so the flaming can begin for killing bees!


TurnTex - Good Advice that was well said and :thumbsup:.

Like that Dry Ice idea as well.


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## Dan P (Oct 29, 2014)

That smell was attack pheromone Im sure it happened a couple seconds after you opened the box. They kind of pause then everybody jumps at once. I believe co2 only knocks them out for a while unless the entire hive is sealed and fully saturated. Wait for your flow to stop and take everything and seal them up or take everything and freeze them. But dont wait until dearth because if they are big they will take over other hives.


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## TurnTex (Mar 6, 2015)

I am sure most know but dry ice sublimates ("melts") and turns to CO2. CO2 is heavier than air so it sinks to the bottom and displaced the oxygen. The bees go to sleep and then expire. It WILL certainly kill bees as I have proven but it does required keeping them exposed long enough and well sealed.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Soapy water will work.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

TurnTex said:


> I am sure you will get a lot of responses about how bad you are for wanting to kill bees! I live in AHB territory and sometimes, I feel it is necessary to put them down. I have no use for a super mean colony. By super mean, if they attack and hundreds follow me for 100 yards, they are super mean and I don't want to propagate those genetics.


I guess it's good that I don't care what other folks think.  I grew up on a farm and still live on the farm today. Bees are no different than any other livestock to me. If I have a cow that jumps the fence and causes problems, she gets sent to the packing plant. I don't eat bees, so they'll just get culled. 

I think it would be irresponsible of a bee keeper to allow a hive that is as hot as the one I have to reproduce. No telling where a swarm from that hive could end up and who it could effect. The biggest downside for me is that that hive has raised no telling how many drones this year that have mated with queens I have raised.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Chemguy said:


> Soapy water will work.


That would be the fastest way, but is the comb and stores salvageable after using soapy water?


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Dan P said:


> That smell was attack pheromone Im sure it happened a couple seconds after you opened the box. They kind of pause then everybody jumps at once. I believe co2 only knocks them out for a while unless the entire hive is sealed and fully saturated. Wait for your flow to stop and take everything and seal them up or take everything and freeze them. But dont wait until dearth because if they are big they will take over other hives.


Yes, it happened no more than one or two seconds after I opened the hive. Normally bees climb out on the top bars and cover them. That didn't happen with these. Every bee that came to the top box on the hive came at me and that was a lot of them. The bees were bearding on the front of the hive and those came at me also. I told my son to leave and I put up with them for a few more minutes then I started getting nailed through the pants. After 20 or more stings I walked away too. We got on the golf cart and drove up to the road (over 1/4 mile from the hives) and still have 50-100 bees bouncing off our veils. I gave the hive about 10 minutes to settle down, (I was reloading the smoker) then went back and put more smoke into it than I have ever used. My son blew smoke from the smoker while I took the supers off. The abundance of smoke helped some but they were still unbearable.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Brad Bee said:


> That would be the fastest way, but is the comb and stores salvageable after using soapy water?


That's a good point. I don't have an answer to that.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Brad Bee said:


> That would be the fastest way, but is the comb and stores salvageable after using soapy water?


 The open nectar won't, but hose the capped honey off well and reuse the comb. I do not tolerate mean bees. there are too many good ones to perpetuate the bad just because they are bees.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

Chemguy said:


> Soapy water will work.


I agree with Chemguy; soapy water with suds on top will wet the bees, and they will drown. Just take the frames one by one out of the hive and shake them and brush them in. Don't immerse the frames in the water.

I have not had a hot hive (doesn't mean I don't get stung), but had imagined what I would do if I had one. I didn't ponder about it for long. Sometimes you just have to kill 'em. It would be a joyless experience to put up with a hive that is ALWAYS hot, and the alternative to taking them out would be to stop keeping bees.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

could you split out a few frames of bees at a time and combine them with your nucs?

an option for euthanizing is closing them up and putting them in a freezer. after a day or so open the freezer and remove the covers and give them another day or two.

the messy part is the dead brood, but it can be blown out with compressed air.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Tenbears said:


> The open nectar won't, but hose the capped honey off well and reuse the comb. *I do not tolerate mean bees. there are too many good ones to perpetuate the bad just because they are bees.*


Very true. I can take a little "heat" but these are ridiculous.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> could you split out a few frames of bees at a time and combine them with your nucs?
> 
> an option for euthanizing is closing them up and putting them in a freezer. after a day or so open the freezer and remove the covers and give them another day or two.
> 
> the messy part is the dead brood, but it can be blown out with compressed air.


I really don't want to try putting them in my nucs, partially because I'd have to continue to deal with them for the next 42 days or however long they plan on living. I also don't want to risk the queens that are being mated now, or either just got mated. I'm afraid they'd ball them. I think our bees are a little testy at times, but this was something way different than that.

By the way, I told you I removed my best queen from her hive and put her in a nuc. I notched some frames in her hive when I removed her. I have not been in the brood nest on that hive to confirm a laying queen until yesterday. She was on the 2nd frame I removed, my son spotted her as soon as I pulled the frame from the hive. She's already laying a great pattern.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

agree it's best to put that one down brad, or just shake them out down the road a ways and let them have a shot at going feral. i've only had one colony so far that was like that, and it was a nuc i brought home from valley head a few years back. that one was easy to deal with, just pinched the queen. i split that nuc into 2 more and requeened. the agressiveness went away right off the bat.

congrats on the daughter queen!!


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Dry Ice and a big garbage bag worked for me on a AHB monster hive. The ice anesthesizes the bees, and they do wake up and recover unless the treatment continues for 4-5 hours. I pulled the bag over the top and taped it down. After the hive went to sleep, I restacked it in the garbage bag to continue with a second block of dry ice. I believe I used 3 lbs total. Smaller hive just slide the bag over and tie up.

If you can work them at all, breaking down into 4 or 6 nucs takes the wind out of their sails, and requeening can proceed without death defying antics.

Even the small nucs are reluctant to accept gentle queens, so a long queen in a cage introduction period is needed. Keep the corks in for several days, and expect the attendants to be killed.


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## Royal (May 4, 2015)

Wait, so are you saying you can put the bees to sleep via dry ice sublimation without too much harm to the bees? Why don't we try working the hot hives that way, then do splits etc or kill the sleeping queen?


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Another option: You can get one or two 20 oz. paintball canisters filled with CO2 and a "remote line" (you may be able to rent these items from a paintball shop). Wrap the hive up with plastic so nothing can go in or out, putting the end of the hose under your top cover secured so it won't fly out. Turn on the remote line and let the tank empty into the hive at a slow hiss rate. Repeat until everything is dead. Oh and don't hold on to that tank as the liquid CO2 turns to gas the tank will develop frost on the outside and can burn you.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

One hitch in this plan..... I have no idea where to get dry ice.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Liberty Paintball and Paintball Phoenix are not far from your area. They are up near Decatur. It might be worth calling them


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Brad Bee said:


> One hitch in this plan..... I have no idea where to get dry ice.


Many grocery stores carry dry ice.


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## TurnTex (Mar 6, 2015)

Walmart usually has it as well as grocery stores as chemguy said. I had no idea either and someone suggested calling the grocery store. The had plenty of it.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Thanks for the info on the dry ice.

If I decide to go with compressed CO2, instead of buying paintball cylinders, I'll just get a large cylinder from the people who supply welding gas to our shop.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Brad Bee said:


> Thanks for the info on the dry ice.
> 
> If I decide to go with compressed CO2, instead of buying paintball cylinders, I'll just get a large cylinder from the people who supply welding gas to our shop.


Yep that will work, when I owned a paintball field I use to get 80 lb, tanks from the gas company.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

JWChesnut said:


> If you can work them at all, breaking down into 4 or 6 nucs takes the wind out of their sails, and requeening can proceed without death defying antics.


I think you are right. My plan if I should ever come across a hot hive is to dump it. Open it up shake all the bees out and move the equipment so they have no idea where their house went. The bees will parish or join your other mild hives.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Good luck with that Ace. I can see how dumping say 30 frames of already too hot to work bees will work out. Hope you have good insurance.....

If you must kill them, take the lid off and pour a couple of gallons of soapy water over them.

I have killed a hive that was way to defensive. Why?, because I did not want the drones to persist and mate with any of the virgins queens in my area.

I tried clsoing them up with dry ice, did not work. Soapy water is the way.

If you want to preserve the frames, then use a CO2 cannister, knock them out, shake em off the frames then use the soapy water to kill them.


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## TurnTex (Mar 6, 2015)

jbeshearse has a good idea there with the CO2 and then soapy water. CO2 alone (10# dry ice) will indeed work if you seal it up well and leave it for 24 hours but putting them out with CO2 and collecting the frames, then soapy water woudl be quicker.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

jbeshearse said:


> Good luck with that Ace. I can see how dumping say 30 frames of already too hot to work bees will work out. Hope you have good insurance.....


X2

I recently(two days ago) dumped out a 6 over 6 that had recently gone queenless. Queen cell looked like queen successfully emerged but did not locate virgin. They were a gentle hive until the dumping, aggravated by the queenlessness. Got three bees under my veil and guard bees would follow/chase you 200 ft. It was in a rural area. Suspect a hot hive is every bit as bad if not worse.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Acebird said:


> I think you are right. My plan if I should ever come across a hot hive is to dump it. Open it up shake all the bees out and move the equipment so they have no idea where their house went. The bees will parish or join your other mild hives.


Heck, I don't look forward to even taking the lid off to put CO2 on the hive. No way I'd shake these out. Shaking out calm hives makes them crazy for a while, I can't imagine what shaking this hive would do. I'm pretty fearless when it comes to bees, but I don't own a full suit, only a jacket and veil. After getting stung multiple times on the legs just taking honey off, I can only imagine what would happen if I shook them. Keeping the bees alive is not a goal of mine on this procedure. I have a new found respect for all you beeks who deal with Africanized bees on a regular basis. I'm not geared properly to deal with them.

I do have to admit that part of me wants to go back with a video camera and take the lid off the hive again. It would make an awesome video.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Brad Bee said:


> Keeping the bees alive is not a goal of mine on this procedure.


Well then just seal it up on a hot summer day. They will either suffocate or roast. The madder they get the faster they will roast.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

Just let each one sting you once.


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## pgayle (Jan 27, 2008)

TurnTex said:


> CO2 alone (10# dry ice) will indeed work if you seal it up well and leave it for 24 hours.


I did that, 10 lbs dry ice on a 3-deep hive. I taped between boxes and taped the front entrance. Fortunately it was already on a solid bottom board. Next day I dumped the dead bees. It was not pretty. What was worse, some were not QUITE dead. I hated those bees, but I also hated it that there were some "sort of" alive the next day. Skunks had a field day with all those barely-alive bees. I distributed the brood frames among strong colonies to clean up, not more than a couple of brood frames per strong colony. They had them cleaned out and were laying in them within a few days. Best part is that all the honey, nectar and pollen is still usable, and most of the drones are dead. 

I have dealt with a couple of mean ones by pinching the queen and dividing the frames up, like another poster said. That works fine, but I had to suit up and haul them across the bee yard and let the foragers leave. That is not a good option for a really mean colony. If you have enough colonies to put them into, the recipients are only a little bit hot, temporarily. The trouble is, the drones are still out there for a while. Plus, I felt like I had to get into the recipient colonies a few days later, to make sure the mean bees weren't trying to raise a queen from one of their sisters. 

I had to laugh at ace's suggestion to shake them frame by frame into soapy water. Too bad he wasn't here to do it, to show me how. I would have watched from my car with the windows up, taking pictures. Heck, I could have sold tickets!


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## Christo (May 28, 2012)

I used dry ice blocks to kill a couple hives that had become extremely aggressive. Not just a few grumpy guard bees, but 30 or 40 clinging stingers that would follow and sting you 50 yards away behind several sight breaks. The only thing I can figure is that when I split them (Mel's OTS System) and they requeened the queens managed to mate with some Africanized hybrid drones that were brought into in the area for crop pollination. I dealt with their horrible disposition for about 2 months and after a neighbor got stung in his yard 75 yards from my hives I decided it was time for something drastic.

I didn't want to destroy the resources so I put each hive inside a giant contractor sized garbage bag, put the dry ice under the cover and then sealed it up for 12 hours. After that I used a big shop-vac to vacuum out all the dead bees and sorted the frames for use later. It was a giant pain, but I'd do it again in a minute to avoid attracting any negative attention to my hives. They were a nasty bunch and I really didn't want that genetic line to continue producing in my apiary or have the drones manage to pollute any other hives in the area.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

flyin-lowe said:


> Just let each one sting you once.


Looking at the stingers sticking out of the pants legs that I had on when I robbed honey, several hundred of them died that day.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Christo said:


> I used dry ice blocks to kill a couple hives that had become extremely aggressive. Not just a few grumpy guard bees, but 30 or 40 clinging stingers that would follow and sting you 50 yards away behind several sight breaks. I dealt with their horrible disposition for about 2 months and after a neighbor got stung in his yard 75 yards from my hives I decided it was time for something drastic.


I have been wondering for a month which hive the guard bees have been coming from when I would get within 50 yards of this part of my site. Now I know. We have 3 barns, each one behind the other, separated by about 150 feet each. When I pulled the supers on this hive, I immediately told my 13 year old son to walk to the first barn. I pulled the honey, one frame at a time. By the time I got half way through the first super I couldn't hear myself think and I have no idea how many bees were trying to sting me but it would number in the 1000's. I've never seen anything like it. I walked away from the hive and wanted to see how far the bees would follow me. I walked to the first barn, which is probably 500 feet from where the hives are. I still had 40-50 bees around my veil. The large front door was open on the barn and the lights were off. I walked inside the barn into the dark and the bees thinned out to around 10 or so. 

When I drove away from the hive on the golf cart, the bees followed further than they did when I walked away.

Saturday I talked to the guy that I got the swarm from and he has had 2 hives he's killed out due to aggression. One was located in a pasture about 1/4 mile from the closest house. He said he was getting complaints from the owner of the house that they were getting stung every time they walked out in their back yard. I know 1/4 mile is a long way, but I have no doubt the guy was telling the truth. 

The other hive he killed out was on a logging road on his hunting property. The were sitting off the side of the road where his son walked to his favorite stand. His son told me he got stung 3 different times, walking by the hive in December when the temps were below 40 degrees. He said he walked probably 50 feet from the hive going to his stand.

I posted a thread last year about a horse being killed by honeybees not far from where I live. I was asked to contact the state apiarist to get them checked for AHB genes. They were tested and found to have no AHB genes. While the apiarist was here he tested the "hottest" hive that I talked about above and found no AHB genes in it either. With them being active in temps as cold as I was told they are, I suspect they are a Russian hybrid of some sort. I have read that they are very aggressive too.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Many years ago, before terramycin, there was a can of Zyklon B under the pickup seat. 

Nowdays, if you clip your queens, there is no need to klll a mean hive. Blow the hive out 39 feet away, move all of the brood to above the excluder on other hives, and place a frame of eggs in a new box at the site of the old hive.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> Blow the hive out 39 feet away,


I guess blowing them out is different than shaking them out?


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

If the hive is killed w/ CO2. Will the brood still be viable? Could it be added to another hive?


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## jercort (Mar 15, 2006)

Use burning sulfur fumes. My father said that's how they killed bees in skeps in the olden days. I have seen it done once when I was a kid. I kills fast and doesn't hurt the honey.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Well then just seal it up on a hot summer day. They will either suffocate or roast. The madder they get the faster they will roast.


For once I agree with you Ace. Duct tape across the entrance. Done.


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## Jim Brewster (Dec 17, 2014)

Nabber86 said:


> For once I agree with you Ace. Duct tape across the entrance. Done.


Except then you might have to deal with comb collapsing if it gets too hot in there.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Sometimes things rise above the level of the hypothetical.......

A beek friend of mine was stung while mowing last week and went into full anaphylactic shock: hives over his entire body, restricted breathing. He called the squad, passed out once he made it to the house, received a concussion. He's on the mend, and is now getting rid of his bees. I'm 'rehoming' them. One of my friends' 3 hives is the culprit, and exhibits every bit of nasty, aggressive behavior you can imagine. Their stings have produced stronger than typical reactions in others, they follow for at least 400 yards and they challenge at 150 yards. That hive won't be making the trip to my apiary; it doesn't matter what genes they do or do not carry.

While I'm intrigued by the possibility of using CO2, my friend wants to be able to leave his front door without an epi pen ****ed and loaded; we can't afford for the kill to kinda work and the bees need to be gone quickly. Additionally, stragglers can't come over to my apiary, which is in a residential area. So, I'm going over to the hives after sunset in full suit with a sprayer in hand. The sprayer will contain hot, soapy water, and any bearding bees will get it from a distance. I plan to spray my way toward the hive, fully block the entrance, then lift the lid and pour 5 gallons of warm, soapy water over the colony. I'll ratchet everything down, then wait until morning to transport. I'm half tempted to disassemble the aggressive hive and transport with the tailgate down, but I don't want any of these bees, including the drones, to be anyone else's problem. I'll let you know how it goes.


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## Harbuck (May 18, 2015)

Publix super market sales dry ice. if you have Publix in your area. Although I would try splitting and re-queening first.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Harbuck said:


> Publix super market sales dry ice. if you have Publix in your area. Although I would try splitting and re-queening first.


:lpf: I think he made it clear that is out of the question.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Chemguy said:


> Sometimes things rise above the level of the hypothetical.......
> 
> A beek friend of mine was stung while mowing last week and went into full anaphylactic shock: hives over his entire body, restricted breathing. He called the squad, passed out once he made it to the house, received a concussion. He's on the mend, and is now getting rid of his bees. I'm 'rehoming' them. One of my friends' 3 hives is the culprit, and exhibits every bit of nasty, aggressive behavior you can imagine. Their stings have produced stronger than typical reactions in others, they follow for at least 400 yards and they challenge at 150 yards. That hive won't be making the trip to my apiary; it doesn't matter what genes they do or do not carry.
> 
> While I'm intrigued by the possibility of using CO2, my friend wants to be able to leave his front door without an epi pen ****ed and loaded; we can't afford for the kill to kinda work and the bees need to be gone quickly. Additionally, stragglers can't come over to my apiary, which is in a residential area. So, I'm going over to the hives after sunset in full suit with a sprayer in hand. The sprayer will contain hot, soapy water, and any bearding bees will get it from a distance. I plan to spray my way toward the hive, fully block the entrance, then lift the lid and pour 5 gallons of warm, soapy water over the colony. I'll ratchet everything down, then wait until morning to transport. I'm half tempted to disassemble the aggressive hive and transport with the tailgate down, but I don't want any of these bees, including the drones, to be anyone else's problem. I'll let you know how it goes.


In that case I would take a gallon of gasoline and a flame thrower....but that's just me.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Chemguy said:


> I plan to spray my way toward the hive, fully block the entrance, then lift the lid and pour 5 gallons of warm, soapy water over the colony.


Is hot soapy water an instant kill like Raid? If they are on you at 150 yards that is going to be a lot of spraying before you get there. I am wondering if the dark of night would be a better time to approach to seal off the hive. Then you could drill a 5/32 hole in the top box and with a garden sprayer/ deck sprayer filled with CO2 pump in the gas to do them in. I suppose you could try soapy water but I don't think you could cover every corner of the top box.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Acebird said:


> Is hot soapy water an instant kill like Raid? If they are on you at 150 yards that is going to be a lot of spraying before you get there. I am wondering if the dark of night would be a better time to approach to seal off the hive. Then you could drill a 5/32 hole in the top box and with a garden sprayer/ deck sprayer filled with CO2 pump in the gas to do them in. I suppose you could try soapy water but I don't think you could cover every corner of the top box.


The plan is to go there after dark. In addition to the hot hive, there are two others that I want to preserve. Those two will get screens in the entrance, the hot hive will get a block of wood that is screwed down. By all accounts the hot, soapy water is effective. I'll know tomorrow night just how effective it is in my hands. 

You're right about coverage, and that's one of my primary concerns.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I doubt dumping 5 gallons of soapy water on them will be a complete kill. I've done this before via soapy water. Yes, do this late in the day when they are all in the hive or at night. I would still use a sprayer. Open the top lid and start spraying. Once the process starts, they get demoralized and focus on survival, not stinging you. Pry the boxes apart and spray between them. Spray the entrance. Move to spraying between the frames. Perhaps a combination of the 5 gallons and spray is best.


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## Dan P (Oct 29, 2014)

Ive had to extinguish some of mine before. Soapy water makes a big mess and just sealing makes a stinky gross mess to clean up after. But you can do either one. The soapy water is a gamble at night. You probably wont get all of them. So i would probably get some ply wood and seperate each box and then restack with plywood in between. or force them all into the bottom, take broo for other hives and throw a sheet of glass over the top. Let the heat and sun do it for you


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If soapy water is a poison to bees isn't it going to contaminate the whole hive? It doesn't seem as though you could use anything in the hive for another hive.


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## Dan P (Oct 29, 2014)

Its not really a poison per say. It clogs the exoskeleton preventing breathing. Lots of suds and a flashlight if being done at night. Maybe one of those car shampooers for suds, Ive been looking for one to try as well.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Acebird said:


> If soapy water is a poison to bees isn't it going to contaminate the whole hive? It doesn't seem as though you could use anything in the hive for another hive.


That's another good point. My thinking is that it should be possible to rinse off any capped honey. All brood, open or sealed, and all open cells (brood, uncapped honey) will get a rinse, then go to the chickens. The frames are duraglit, so can be returned to use.

I've been playing around with a 3 gallon sprayer that hasn't seen any use for herbicide or pesticide. The nozzle is adjustable and I've marked positions so that I can send out a stream or a good, foamy mess.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Chemguy said:


> That's another good point. My thinking is that it should be possible to rinse off any capped honey. All brood, open or sealed, and all open cells (brood, uncapped honey) will get a rinse, then go to the chickens. The frames are duraglit, so can be returned to use.
> 
> I've been playing around with a 3 gallon sprayer that hasn't seen any use for herbicide or pesticide. The nozzle is adjustable and I've marked positions so that I can send out a stream or a good, foamy mess.


I don't think it is poison (soapy water). I pour soapy water on the ground to get night crawlers for fishing and it doesn't hurt them in the least. 

It just coats the bees and they more or less drown. An added benefit is that when you rinse it off, your hive will be nice and clean.


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## Jim Brewster (Dec 17, 2014)

I think it depends on the soap. If you use industrial detergent or anti-bacterial soap it could leave nasty residues.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Jim Brewster said:


> I think it depends on the soap. If you use industrial detergent or anti-bacterial soap it could leave nasty residues.


Well I think the idea is to use Dawn; not an industrial cleaner, whatever that is.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I've made a little tiny guillotine just in case any of my hives gets out of line. OFF WITH THEIR HEADS! One at a time.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

Beekeepers used to kill their colonies every Fall. What did they use?


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> I've made a little tiny guillotine just in case any of my hives gets out of line. OFF WITH THEIR HEADS! One at a time.


LOL
You might lop a few heads from time to time "Pour encourager les autres."


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

gnor said:


> Beekeepers used to kill their colonies every Fall. What did they use?


Cyanogas


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> I've made a little tiny guillotine just in case any of my hives gets out of line. OFF WITH THEIR HEADS! One at a time.


Bring it down here, I've still got the one you can try it out on. 

I'll video.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

jim lyon said:


> Cyanogas


Why did beekeepers use to kill their colonies every fall? That sounds interesting, not that I would want to do it but I'm wondering why it was ever considered a common or proper beekeeping idea.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

jim lyon said:


> Cyanogas


That's interesting. I looked up to learn a bit more, and came across this chapter from a butterfly collector's book in the Peabody Library at Yale: http://images.peabody.yale.edu/lepsoc/jls/1950s/1956/1956-10(5)151-Clench.pdf

In the chapter, another killing agent is mentioned as a substitute, ethyl acetate. There are two common solvents sold as nail polish remover; acetone and ethyl acetate. I'll bet that both are equally effective at killing, but suspect that ethyl acetate is too similar to the attack pheromone (the one that smells like banana) to be useful in an apiary. Not sure about acetone.

Brad: I'm sorry to have hijacked your thread. You posted it at just the right time.

Barry: Thanks for your thoughts on breaking the boxes apart. I'm going to take that approach. Apparently, a helper added another super to the hives the other day, and now there is more volume to consider....three deeps.:scratch:


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## TurnTex (Mar 6, 2015)

Just do the dry ice! It will work if you don't get in a hurry and try to open it up in a a few hours. Just block off the entrance with a piece of wood as you plan and add a medium on top. Drop in the dry ice and cover with a plastic trash bag and tape it to the box. Then duct tape the seams of the boxes. Come back 24 hours and they will ALL be dead. Very easy and NOTHING gets damaged or contaminated.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

The OP asked what the best way to kill a HIVE was. Mr. Lyon and I both suggested cyanide. That is what was used before sulfa and terramycin where available. The next step was to burn the hive. If the OP wishes to find out the best way to kill the BEES in the hive, he should re-ask the question.

If the OP wishes to just kill the bees, he should just kill the queen, no need to kill all the bees.

Crazy Roland


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## Jim Brewster (Dec 17, 2014)

Brad Bee said:


> Why did beekeepers use to kill their colonies every fall? That sounds interesting, not that I would want to do it but I'm wondering why it was ever considered a common or proper beekeeping idea.


As I understand it, in times and places where wild or feral bees were plentiful, there was no such thing as pollination service or bees for sale, and beekeepers were in it for the honey and wax. They caught swarms and kept them through the growing season. It generally wasn't considered worth the trouble to preserve the bees along with the harvest, let alone try to keep colonies through the winter.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

> Quote Originally Posted by Acebird
> Well then just seal it up on a hot summer day. They will either suffocate or roast. The madder they get the faster they will roast.





Jim Brewster said:


> Except then you might have to deal with comb collapsing if it gets too hot in there.


Yup. The comb collapses and you get a big mass of honey-soaked dead bees at the bottom. Not fun to clean up.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> Yup. The comb collapses and you get a big mass of honey-soaked dead bees at the bottom. Not fun to clean up.


Use soapy water.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Chemguy, the suspense if killing me! opcorn:


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Roland's post equating cyanogas to the infamous zyclon B got me thinking. Cyanogas is actually calcium cyanide while zyclon B is hydrogen cyanide. Not sure what differences those agents have but I wouldn't like my chances in an enclosed room with either. I used some cyanogas back "in the day" and does it ever work. A nice hive tool scoop in the entrance, thump on the boxes a bit to agitate them and keep them from crawling in the cells and they literally would all be laying on the bottom board a short time later. 
On the other hand, bees that have been smothered (yes, I've experienced a few unfortunate episodes of that as well) are kind of a mess with the dead bees quite damp, a lot of them stuck between the frames and not at all unusual to have small pockets of sickly, live bees here and there.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

thehackleguy said:


> Chemguy, the suspense if killing me! opcorn:


I'll be going in tonight, in a couple of hours. There were some scheduling conflicts.

Pete


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> Roland's post equating cyanogas to the infamous zyclon B got me thinking. Cyanogas is actually calcium cyanide while zyclon B is hydrogen cyanide. Not sure what differences those agents have but I wouldn't like my chances in an enclosed room with either. I used some cyanogas back "in the day" and does it ever work. A nice hive tool scoop in the entrance, thump on the boxes a bit to agitate them and keep them from crawling in the cells and they literally would all be laying on the bottom board a short time later.
> On the other hand, bees that have been smothered (yes, I've experienced a few unfortunate episodes of that as well) are kind of a mess with the dead bees quite damp, a lot of them stuck between the frames and not at all unusual to have small pockets of sickly, live bees here and there.


Cyanogas (calcium cyanide) turns into hydrogen cyanide gas just by absorbing water from the atmosphere. Either way, I wouldn't want to mess with it.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

And there you have it boys and girls. Cyanide is the best way to kill. Now if you can only find some in a can that is NOT too rusty.

Crazy Roland
.
P.S. Don't ask a German for any, we aren't allow to use it any more


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Chemguy said:


> I'll be going in tonight, in a couple of hours. There were some scheduling conflicts.
> 
> Pete


Here's a rather unexciting update:

Went over for battle last night, and started by securing the colonies that aren't full of evil. The hives were each about 15 feet apart, and it was dusk so all bees were in the hives, no bearding. We were left alone.

My friend had a change of heart. While he and his s/o are still going to get out of beekeeping, their experience with the hive was so, well, traumatic, that they didn't want it to be messed with. This was out of personal safety concerns, not out of a desire to not kill bees. So, the trip turned into a routine hive relocation, which is OK. Part of me is disappointed that the plan couldn't be put into action, but a larger part of me is both glad and grateful to have such considerate friends.

Pete


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

Agree with CO2 if you can get it without major hassle and expense. Another method is to spray them with ether (starting fluid WITHOUT lubricant). This will kill the bees and leave nor residue. It will evaporate VERY quickly. Just be advised that ether is HIGHLY flammable and explosive. If you can't find either brake cleaner will work almost as well but do NOT use Brake Kleen in the red can. It does not evaporate nearly as fast and takes much longer to fully gas off. These are also flammable but not as much as ether. Straight spray ether is the best choice in my opinion IF you have to do this. 

If this hive is otherwise healthy and you just want it gone due to its temperament, why not just break the hive down, remove the frames and distribute them among your other hives with no more than one frame (preferably) from this hive in the new hives. The new hives with assimilate the frames you place in them. Just be sure to remove the queen from the nasty hive from the frames before you do this.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

I hear you on breaking the hive down and distributing the frames. If it weren't for the fact that some of these bees seem to be more potent than is typical for honeybees, I'd bring them over to my apiary.

It just so happens that I've access to lots of ether in pure form, and am at ease working with it safely. Hmmmmm.............I'm thinking about closing off the hive, sealing off the screened bottom board, then drilling a hole in the top super and using a funnel and tubing to pour some ether in. Or, using a sprayer to spray ether into the hive. I'll float this idea by my friends to see what they think.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Well, ether works, mostly. 

The entrance was blocked last night (2 deeps, 2 mediums, SBB, no upper entrance) and today we sealed any gaps with duct tape, then drilled a few 3/32" holes in the supers. Put about 400 mL of pure ether into the hive using a syringe and waited. There was a strong roar, which died out quickly. We used a stethoscope to listen while the roar died out.

Because the hive is on a screened bottom board, though with the insert below the screen, after about an hour we noticed some buzzing when using a stethoscope. We'll leave the hive sealed for a few days, and give it a bit of ether every now and then. Or maybe chloroform.

I don't recommend using larger amounts of ether like we did unless you really know what you are doing. The two of us doing the work were a chemist and a molecular biologist. Even though we each have experience using ether in a laboratory, there was still a healthy amount of risk involved.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Great and informative thread. I picked up 3 swarms this year, besides catching one of my own. The last one was by far the largest, and typically I don't find swarms to be aggressive, no stings on the first 2. 3rd one would not come out of the tree except to sting me through jeans and try to get thru my bee jacket, had to run home for a full suit and a bee vac. I did eventually get them out of their tree into the vac, and dumped it into my choice of hive, with a screen front door and I believe a solid bottom board, there definitely is a queen excluder on TOP of that bottom board, the metal bar kind I've found drones stuck in. I gave them the benefit of the doubt but my local ferals have enough AHB dna, I didn't want to risk more.

. I can't get close enough to check bottom board type right now without suiting up, and they are heavily bearded on the front "porch". I feed via 3 inch holes drilled in my homemade migratory covers, with #8 hardware cloth on the inside of the hole to keep the bees from coming out when I change jars. This hive has been chasing me around a bit, so when I went to feed yesterday I suited up in jacket and rubber gloves (over sleeve). I stuck visiting grandchildren in bee suits to go feed the chickens near the bees. When I touched the jar on this hive they came at me, I yelled for the kids to go out the gate and close it, they did this, and I took the only sting. They chased me, around obstructions, I finally got them off outside the fence. I attempted to feed my other hives and they were guarding and preventing me from doing this when I picked up my sting. I live in city limits and my neighbor holds garage sales. I will have kids visiting in summer and all my hives need attention. This one has to go. 

I have requeened an AHB hive, I took stings regularly during the process, and do not have time, energy or privacy to do it this year. of my 5 hives this is the strongest, so I have entrance reducers closed down fairly small. 

I bought a 10# CO2 tank and a regulator with hose yesterday. Since I do use the feeder jar opening on top for feed, putting the hose over that opening should get CO2 to sink into the hive. I had forgotten the soapy water, I have a hose end sprayer loaded with dilute dish soap for garden bugs, I could uit up, pray down the front porch good, put the prepped co2 tank on top of the hive, slip contractor's trash bag over it, lift, and close bag in front. I am tired of being chased and stung, there are so many nice bees made homeless in tree trunks by the storms. I want my equipment back clean and ready to use, they are putting up mesquite nectar right now, barely taking feed, so I do not want any soapy water in the hive. 

Alternatively I could put the co2 hose through the contractor's bag bottom before I go to the hive, take the hose end sprayer with me, hose them down, set the canister next to hive, seal hive, and open valve. Not sure how long the valve needs to stay open. I believe they are on a solid bottom, and duct tape over the screen on front should hold the co2 in. Need to do it tonight, I cannot work in my garden, tend my koi pond near the hives or tend my chickens right now. Not shaking them out and providing a hazard for my neighborhood. The hive is a single deep, being a bit too guardy for me to put a super on. They started off with one frame of comb and 9 empty frames, alternating plasticell and wedge frames string with 20# fishing line. Closing up in sun would make a terrible mess, I want my equipment, any honey they made and usable comb.


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## TurnTex (Mar 6, 2015)

Turn the tank upside down when you put it in. This will cause liquid CO2 to flow into the hive and the cold alone will kill many of the bees. My friend who sells CO2 suggested this with the bottles he loaned me.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

That tank weighs 40 lbs at least. How long should I leave it on? I have examined the hose and regulator I bought, 10 ft long, the CO2 tank is so heavy I don't think I can set it on top of the hive. I am running on about 4.5 hours sleep after a very long day, so I am going to aim for 5 or 6 am, before sunup, and do the best I can, wish me luck.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

and in the light of the new day, the reason they didn't go in last night might have been crowding, there are still bees outside and they have taken over my bait nuc next door. soapy water or did they just get hotter because they were due to swarm. the queen excluder may have kept her in. eating and thinking and open to suggestion. don't need 2 hot hives


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

> Put about 400 mL of pure ether into the hive using a syringe and waited.


I don't know if you can still get your hands on some Carbon Tetrachloride, but it might work better than ether or chloroform if you can. I used to use it as a kid when I had an insect collection, and it was pretty much instant. I can just imagine giving a 12 year old something like that these days! LOL


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

> Why did beekeepers use to kill their colonies every fall? That sounds interesting, not that I would want to do it but I'm wondering why it was ever considered a common or proper beekeeping idea.


Hi Brad ~
Economics, mostly. In colder climates, it was more economical at one time to kill the colony in the Fall and dump a new package in in the Spring. I guess at some point, the price of package bees crossed some economic threshold, so now Northern beeks overwinter, raise their own bees, etc. A lot of Canadian operators Winter their colonies indoors now, especially the pollinators that need strong hives early on. There are operators on the prairies that put out 13,000 colonies on Soybeans and Canola every year.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

gnor said:


> I don't know if you can still get your hands on some Carbon Tetrachloride, but it might work better than ether or chloroform if you can. I used to use it as a kid when I had an insect collection, and it was pretty much instant. I can just imagine giving a 12 year old something like that these days! LOL


Yes it is still available, but regulated. It's one of those substances that, like some of the older freons, depleted the ozone layer. It's also been identified as a rather hazardous substance. The required exposure level is pretty high, but a lot of people who used it as a paint stripper as part of their routine employment also developed liver and kidney problems. Chloroform works just as well as carbon tetrachloride, and carries the same potential hazards.


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## Dan P (Oct 29, 2014)

Since ive also worked highly aggressive hives. I have learned the bigger the hive the more aggressive. I also have learned that as the generation goes each queen is meaner and meaner. Unless your area is completely contained against bad drones. so break them all apart or just finish them off.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Dan P said:


> Since ive also worked highly aggressive hives. I have learned the bigger the hive the more aggressive. I also have learned that as the generation goes each queen is meaner and meaner. Unless your area is completely contained against bad drones. so break them all apart or just finish them off.


That is the case with this hive. The mother hive of this queen is what I would describe as defensive and somewhat aggressive. They were the hottest hive I have until this one came along. I "made" the queen last year and they weren't bad, but this year with the large hive they are really hot.


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## Czarembo (Aug 1, 2015)

Chemguy said:


> Yes it is still available, but regulated. It's one of those substances that, like some of the older freons, depleted the ozone layer. It's also been identified as a rather hazardous substance. The required exposure level is pretty high, but a lot of people who used it as a paint stripper as part of their routine employment also developed liver and kidney problems. Chloroform works just as well as carbon tetrachloride, and carries the same potential hazards.


I'm new at this site. Thanks to all for their contributions - some wonderful insights gleaned already. 

Great thoughts Chemguy. Carbon tetrachloride and others mentioned can leave harmful residue which can affect humans and bees.. The soapy water solution likely would contaminate the wax and whatever pollen and honey remaining. 

Love the idea of using CO2, if the hive is sealed it should do the job. Don't feel bad about destroying a bad batch of bees. The angry traits need to be reduced - so killing off these bad hives and their drones is a net positive in terms of reducing aggressive honeybees.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

If you are not raising queens, there is no need to kill the bees, just kill the queen.

In the past, the only time bees where gassed was AFB. Mean hives where requeened.

Crazy Roland


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## Beeathlon (Jul 28, 2015)

I have not started my beekeeping career yet, but my national association suggest placing a rag doused in gasoline on top of the frames and seal the hive afterwards. Honey should be removed prior to the procedure.
According to the article the bees will die in minutes. Depending on the disease the brood frames/boxes are either destroyed or cleansed. The indication for doing this is disease not bad temper, but I guess some times one have to apply a quick fix if the neighbours or wife is freaking out.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Would ammonia nitrate in the smoker work? Smoke the crude out of them and then shake all into a plastic tote. Leave in the summer and they are cooked.


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## manpunchingbear (Jun 26, 2015)

I have been following this thread since it started, trying to determine whether a few of the hives I have are so hostile that I should kill them and start with fresh packages from a reputable beekeeper. My hives were initially started from packages and nucs from a local beekeeper who procures packages from the south and sells them to us local hobbyists in the spring. No doubt they have some AHB traits, because I have been around gentle hives with temperaments that I like. 25 to 100 bees come at me as soon as I open the lid, depending on the hive. They will bolt at me when I try to remove a frame and sting my gloves. I tried introducing gentle queens twice now, the gentle queens are gone within 6 weeks and they have raised their own. I split one of the hostile hives into two and they killed the replacement queens, opting to raise their own.

A good friend of mine gave me a split this spring from a gentle hive that is a great producer and it was robbed / taken over by the hostile hive. I combined it with frames and brood from another weaker hive (using the newspaper method) and re-queened it on July 3rd. The gentle MH queen was still there as of yesterday and it is doing fine. I set the entrance reducer tight so that it is better defended. My re-queening method is to ensure the hostile queen is gone for at least 24 hours, check that there are no queen cells, insert the replacement queen in a cage with a candy plug, and check 7 days later that she has released.

The professional beekeeper who has been providing me with queens this last month has well over 200 hives in his yard. We walked the yard last week looking for a replacement queen in shorts, t-shirts, and sandals with no stings. That is the temperament that I want to have -- the ability to open a hive with minimal protective gear rather than a full suit at all times.

I am in a Pennsylvania suburban community with neighbors, and we're starting to get close to fall and cooler temperatures. Not sure if it is too late in the season to think about re-queening / re-packaging. My options seem to be:

1. Leave them alone and enjoy the honey they produce. The downside is that they are unpleasant and I enjoy this as a "hobbyist" (i.e., not a career beekeeper). I dislike the ill-temperament and they chased / stung stung my dog yesterday while I was inspecting the hive to see how the re-queening went. I do not want to see it turn into a situation where my neighbors get chased or stung. Until now, the bees are only defensive / aggressive during inspections.
2. Kill them now and re-package. It is evident that they will continue killing the queens I introduce and raising up ones with the genetic traits that THEY want. Not sure if it is too late in the season, though. I do not mind killing these hostile ones, but I do not want to set up good bees to fail if it is too late in the year for them to get established.
3. Let them perish over the winter that is coming and deal with it in the spring with new packages.

After trying the method of splitting a hostile hive into two and re-queening both and ending up with two hostile hives that kill replacement queens, the only assured way of doing it seems to be kill them all and re-start fresh. Thoughts from any of you out there with years of experience ?


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

manpunchingbear - Are you keeping the queen in the cage for a week and smashing any Queen Cells that entire time? If so, all of the new brood will be her's since all the eggs from the old queen will now be larvae older than 3 days old. Those cannot be made into queens at that point. If you do this, all of the future offspring will be her's and the temperament of the hive will shift slowly as the old bees die off.


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## manpunchingbear (Jun 26, 2015)

I remove the queen cells the day I place the queen cage and then remove queen cells on the 7th day after placing the queen cage to ensure she has released, but do not want to keep opening the hive every couple of days during the release period. I think one of the contributing problems is that the new queens they are raising are then mating with feral drones or the drones from the temperamental stock and perpetuating the issue. 



marshmasterpat said:


> manpunchingbear - Are you keeping the queen in the cage for a week and smashing any Queen Cells that entire time? If so, all of the new brood will be her's since all the eggs from the old queen will now be larvae older than 3 days old. Those cannot be made into queens at that point. If you do this, all of the future offspring will be her's and the temperament of the hive will shift slowly as the old bees die off.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

manpunchingbear said:


> The professional beekeeper who has been providing me with queens this last month has well over 200 hives in his yard. We walked the yard last week looking for a replacement queen in shorts, t-shirts, and sandals with no stings. That is the temperament that I want to have -- the ability to open a hive with minimal protective gear rather than a full suit at all times.


This is the same guy that sold you the packages?

If you and your neighbors can make it until colder weather you can harvest on a cold day and leave the boxes tipped up and exposed to the cold. When the bees become sluggish you can shake them off the frames and take all the honey. It sounds like you have one calm hive that if it makes it through winter you can split to build up your apiary with calm bees.


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## Czarembo (Aug 1, 2015)

Roland said:


> If you are not raising queens, there is no need to kill the bees, just kill the queen.
> 
> In the past, the only time bees where gassed was AFB. Mean hives where requeened.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Roland, the drones of that hive carry the old queen's genetics. Getting rid of the drones helps eliminate the traits in the honey bee population overall. That is why I'd recommend killing off the entire hive.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I would like to raise my own queens, and now that the local AHB ferals were droughted out and possibly also died of EFB back in 2013, I have gotten some nice queens produced by my hives. I picked up an extremely hot swarm in May and put a queen excluder in the bottom of their hive to avoid drone pollution in my apiary, when they got hot I initially excused them as due to crowding before swarm, but the next queen was indeed even hotter. (I killed about 400 drones when I split them, in their drone cells mostly)

Manpunching bear: if 50 bees are instantly on my visor when I open the hive on a fine clear day and I did use smoke, that hive is too hot. I live in a neighborhood. I used a bucket of soapy water on the queen containing 3/4 of the hot swarm in my bee yard last Saturday, and this Friday the remainder had absconded from the cleaned up hive I put them back into and hung on a branch. I used my shop vac and sucked them up. I did not use CO2, because it makes unconscious but does not kill apparently (based on a couple of shb in my honey super that I flooded with CO2 while waiting on the extractor.) I still have a couple of frames of these bees, they were the younger when I split the hive, and they are raising some brood from another hive that they failed to make a queen cell from. I will wait a few days to be sure they are truly queenless before doing a combine and sticking them on top of a good hive. One way to clean up hot bees is splitting and requeening but depending on your stress level and how close your neighbors are this isn't always a great idea.

My hot hive had produced 7 frames of hot bees and less than a full frame of honey in 2 months. Not enough honey to worry about salvaging. I like the winter suggestion, clearing them out going into first freeze. While dish soap washes out of a box and off frames, ice is really non toxic.


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## manpunchingbear (Jun 26, 2015)

No, I spent a few days researching queen breeders and contacting people... was lucky to find him after a series of phone calls with people around the US. It is a shame that the temperamental hives keep killing his queens, that is why I am hesitant to introduce another one into those hostile workers / drones. The person I got them from either did not know or does not care because they have more of a commercial operation for honey, beeswax, and packages.




Acebird said:


> This is the same guy that sold you the packages?
> 
> If you and your neighbors can make it until colder weather you can harvest on a cold day and leave the boxes tipped up and exposed to the cold. When the bees become sluggish you can shake them off the frames and take all the honey. It sounds like you have one calm hive that if it makes it through winter you can split to build up your apiary with calm bees.


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## manpunchingbear (Jun 26, 2015)

Gypsi,

It does not make a difference if I smoke them or not. I laid a gentle blanket of smoke on each hive Saturday afternoon, followed by a hefty roar, then bees zooming out of the hive bumping my veil and stinging my gloves. Up to now, they have been aggressive only when I enter the hives but it has generally safe to observe them coming in and out from 6 to 10 feet away, cutting the grass, etc. Unless things change, I think I am leaning toward leaving them be until winter and then installing new packages next spring from the beekeeper I met last month.

This forum is helpful to hear what other people are experiencing, I enjoy reading through comments and especially everyone's kind responses and interaction!



Gypsi said:


> Manpunching bear: if 50 bees are instantly on my visor when I open the hive on a fine clear day and I did use smoke, that hive is too hot. I live in a neighborhood. I used a bucket of soapy water on the queen containing 3/4 of the hot swarm in my bee yard last Saturday, and this Friday the remainder had absconded from the cleaned up hive I put them back into and hung on a branch. I used my shop vac and sucked them up. I did not use CO2, because it makes unconscious but does not kill apparently (based on a couple of shb in my honey super that I flooded with CO2 while waiting on the extractor.) I still have a couple of frames of these bees, they were the younger when I split the hive, and they are raising some brood from another hive that they failed to make a queen cell from. I will wait a few days to be sure they are truly queenless before doing a combine and sticking them on top of a good hive. One way to clean up hot bees is splitting and requeening but depending on your stress level and how close your neighbors are this isn't always a great idea.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

If you purchase a MATED queen, there is no need to kill the bees. The old "mean" drones will not have a chance to mated and carry on their genes.

Remember, it's "Beekeeper" , not "Beekiller"

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> The old "mean" drones will not have a chance to mated and carry on their genes.


The old ones may be past their prime but the young ones and the new ones will have every chance. All beekeepers are beekillers no matter how careful they are.


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## manpunchingbear (Jun 26, 2015)

Hello. Thank you for your reply. The mated queens are being killed by the population of bees shortly after introduction and they are then raising their own queens. When the virgin queens they raise are mating, they must be doing so with drones that have the "temperamental disposition" genetics. Do you recommend that I keep trying to introduce mated queens until they accept one that I put in? I am starting to feel like any queen I introduce will be sentencing her to a quick death sentence, and I don't know if I want to keep spending the money and rolling the dice like that.



Roland said:


> If you purchase a MATED queen, there is no need to kill the bees. The old "mean" drones will not have a chance to mated and carry on their genes.
> 
> Remember, it's "Beekeeper" , not "Beekiller"
> 
> Crazy Roland


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ace, if the OP smashes all cells, where will a virgin come from for the drones to mate with?? Ace, how many beekeepers kill with intent?

OP - I would order a Strachan NWC and follow their instructions TO THE LETTER. We have introduced hundreds of their queens without loosing a one. I suspect you are trying to requeen a hive that already has a queen, which will usually fail. 

A way to cheat is to move the existing hive more than 20 feet. Place an identical hive, but empty of bees, in it's place. Without opening the hive, you can be reasonably assured of having a hive with no queen. Repeat as necessary.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> Ace, if the OP smashes all cells, where will a virgin come from for the drones to mate with??


From another hive



> Ace, how many beekeepers kill with intent?


You are instructing the op to cull all the queen cells and the queen are you not?


> A way to cheat is to move the existing hive more than 20 feet. Place an identical hive, but empty of bees, in it's place. Without opening the hive, you can be reasonably assured of having a hive with no queen. Repeat as necessary.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Is the OP suppose to introduce a queen into a hive of old bees and no nurse bees? These would be the bees that are most ornery. It wouldn't surprise me if these bees wouldn't just massacre another queen and eventually drift back to the original hive.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

manpunchingbear said:


> Hello. Thank you for your reply. The mated queens are being killed by the population of bees shortly after introduction and they are then raising their own queens. When the virgin queens they raise are mating, they must be doing so with drones that have the "temperamental disposition" genetics. Do you recommend that I keep trying to introduce mated queens until they accept one that I put in? I am starting to feel like any queen I introduce will be sentencing her to a quick death sentence, and I don't know if I want to keep spending the money and rolling the dice like that.


I have attempted to requeen an Africanized honeybee hive, spent the money, had my queens killed, eventually gotten them to make a queen from eggs from another of my hives, only to have winter creep up and end up with a poorly mated queen. Roland is in Wisconsin. He doesn't have AHB. You are in Pennsylvania but didn't you say you bought your bees from someone that sells southern bees?

In August, dealing with a very hot hive, I am a queen killer a drone killer and reduce the population of elder bees enough to introduce a frame of eggs with nurse bees from a gentle hive and not have those killed off. How to get rid of the old bees (not to be done if you have close neighbors) Move the hive. Give them a box to perch in at the old location. Get your nurse bees and eggs in. if you don't have another hive to raid, borrow from your friend the local beek with good genetics. It is now August 4th you do not have much time.


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## manpunchingbear (Jun 26, 2015)

Gypsi,

Yes, I am in Pennsylvania and bought my packages from two different beekeepers in Pennsylvania but they sourced them from the south. Also, they are both commercial beekeepers and likely do not care as much as I do if they have hot hives. The man who sold me the gentle Minnesota Hygienic queens is in Ohio and raises his own, artificially inseminates them, etc. He has an incredibly nice bee yard! We walked it for an hour or so in shorts and t-shirts, opening hives, and no stings. Very nice temperaments.

I still have one Minnesota Hygienic queen from the beekeeper in a hive here and she filled 6 full frames of brood since the weekend of July 3rd when I introduced her to it. I checked the hot hive this evening here at home (the one that has killed the last two queens) and there is no brood or queen cells. I moved a frame of very young brood from the good hive and into the hostile hive giving us all (me and the bees) one last chance to make things right.

If I understand what you wrote, I should go in and remove the drones from the hot hive. Since I just moved the frame of larvae and eggs, I suspect that I have some time to leave them alone for a few days and go back in on the weekend and remove drones. The population is declining, so not sure I have the ability to prune the elder bees, but I sure will take care of the drones. Plenty of those in the other (gentle) hive that are suitable for mating.

In what part of Texas are you? My in-laws are in Alvin.

Thank you, have a great evening!





Gypsi said:


> I have attempted to requeen an Africanized honeybee hive, spent the money, had my queens killed, eventually gotten them to make a queen from eggs from another of my hives, only to have winter creep up and end up with a poorly mated queen. Roland is in Wisconsin. He doesn't have AHB. You are in Pennsylvania but didn't you say you bought your bees from someone that sells southern bees?
> 
> In August, dealing with a very hot hive, I am a queen killer a drone killer and reduce the population of elder bees enough to introduce a frame of eggs with nurse bees from a gentle hive and not have those killed off. How to get rid of the old bees (not to be done if you have close neighbors) Move the hive. Give them a box to perch in at the old location. Get your nurse bees and eggs in. if you don't have another hive to raid, borrow from your friend the local beek with good genetics. It is now August 4th you do not have much time.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I am in the Fort Worth area of Texas. Because you have one good hive and I gather 5 hot ones, I would be thinning some drones, their dna is likely to overpower the dna of your good hive, additionally they are contributing to the dna of your entire area. Having fought off the African lot that was native to my area dna wise, even though there were no actual colonies close enough to pollinate my garden, I have some experience in what the introduction of hot drones can do.

For all AHB are reputed to be the most productive, in my 4 years I have not seen that, what they seem to produce the most of are drones. 

I recently sold off one of my gentle hygienic hives and as I was moving my frames into his boxes I noticed the difference, lots of worker brood, honey, pollen but almost no drone brood. And that is what you want to see in your hive, in my honest opinion. 

Always buying mated queens to avoid a situation that could be headed off in the drone brood stage is rough on the budget.


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## Dan P (Oct 29, 2014)

But if you have a good queen wouldnt the drone also be of good nature? Since the drone is only the genes of the queen not a combination of male and female? Or do I have this backwards...
Since a non mated queen can only make drones.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

If you are surrounded by Africanized Honey bees you can have a great queen and still when she is mated her offspring will be hotter, and each progressive generation will be hotter still. The queen mates with as many drones as possible for her lifetime supply of sperm and the AHB drones are faster flyers


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## Dan P (Oct 29, 2014)

i guess i should have stated a mated queen from a good genetic line.


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## manpunchingbear (Jun 26, 2015)

I believe that mated queens are (hopefully) of good genetics as intended by the queen breeder who carefully selects the sperm donors. The Minnesota Hygienic program was one where Marla Spivak and other MH queen breeders selectively bred them to carry the particular genes they found important and valued. A hive can raise their own queen from eggs laid by a quality queen. When that virgin queen takes its mating flight, there is a chance that her brood can possess genetics unwanted by the beekeeper if the available drones in the mating area have questionable genetics and unwanted traits.

My quandary is that I bought package bees that turned out to possess that hostile trait. With 5 hives in two different geographic locations of temperamental bees, they are killing the queens that I introduce and are raising their own. It makes it a challenge for me to change the temperament because the virgin queens are probably mating with the drones that carry the temperamental genetic trait. The nice feature of Pennsylvania is that I can replace them all with better quality packages come spring if they fail to over-winter... but I am going to take Gypsi's advice and thin the drone herd this weekend.



Dan P said:


> i guess i should have stated a mated queen from a good genetic line.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

manpunchingbear said:


> My quandary is that I bought package bees that turned out to possess that hostile trait.


That suggest that the queen was mated in an area that has AHB genetics. Even though the package originated in the south if the package was supplied with a mated queen from an area that doesn't have AHB genetics your hive would not be hot.

One of the problems with packages is the queen gets superceded. If you live in an AHB area and that happens you get screwed.

I have already spoke to my wife about this. When we move to FL the bees are not coming with us.


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## TurnTex (Mar 6, 2015)

Acebird said:


> One of the problems with packages is the queen gets superceded. If you live in an AHB area and that happens you get screwed.


You are overstating this, Brian. I live deep in AHB territory and it is not a given that naturally mated queens will be AHB. I have 2 hives that I allowed to raise their own queen as well as a swam that I captured here in AHB territory. All three of those are as gentle as my 2 purchased nucs with proven gentle queens. One swarm I caught started getting hot so I requeened. Yes, it certainly can happen but it is not a given.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

TurnTex said:


> One swarm I caught started getting hot so I requeened. Yes, it certainly can happen but it is not a given.


I cannot find the queen or see eggs so requeening is more of a problem for me than it might be for you. It is a given sooner or later.


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## TurnTex (Mar 6, 2015)

Acebird said:


> I cannot find the queen or see eggs so requeening is more of a problem for me than it might be for you. It is a given sooner or later.


I did not realize Utica, NY is in AHB territory. I did not think they got that far north.

Being that I AM in documented AHB territory and have a lot of friends that are beekeepers here, it is not a given that naturally mated hives will become AHB sooner or later. My mentor who has been keeping in this area for 42 years semi-commercially also disagrees. He does have a yard that has a lot of AHB traits but he also has a yard that is very gentle. Neither have ever been requeened with commercial queens.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

dsegrest said:


> If the hive is killed w/ CO2. Will the brood still be viable? Could it be added to another hive?


High enough concentrations of CO2 will kill anything that uses oxygen, including brood, eggs, and pupae. The numbers I've looked up say 100% CO2 will kill in a couple of hours, and 80% will kill in a few days. I picked the trick up from a conservator at the Smithsonian, where they use it to keep wool moths and similar pests out of material they are preserving. I used it last winter to be sure wax moths did not infest stored frames (put the frames in supers in huge plastic bags).

I looked up CO2 as a pesticide, and it is considered GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe) by the EPA. Mind you, that's an environmental assessment ... if you breath it, a percent or so is toxic, so this is one of those "use in fresh air" things. CO2 is not just an asphixiant, it actually is toxic.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

TurnTex said:


> I did not realize Utica, NY is in AHB territory. I did not think they got that far north.


Utica is not AhB territory but Fl is so if we move to FL I will not have bees.


> He does have a yard that has a lot of AHB traits but he also has a yard that is very gentle. Neither have ever been requeened with commercial queens.


He is probably moving the hot hives out of the yard that has gentle bees. Keeping hot hives only makes it worse for those around him.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Phoebee said:


> CO2 is not just an asphixiant, it actually is toxic.


So is oxygen.


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## TurnTex (Mar 6, 2015)

Acebird said:


> He is probably moving the hot hives out of the yard that has gentle bees. Keeping hot hives only makes it worse for those around him.


No, he is not moving any hives. He is 73 years old and I do all the heavy lifting for him. One yard is about 20 minutes from here. The other is 2 hours away. He also has 5 hives in his back yard, all split from one original hive he was keeping just to have one near the house. They are all walk away splits without adding a queen. 

It is pretty silly to say you won't have bees just because you live in AHB territory. AHB is over played by the media, IMO. The state apiary inspector that inspected my hives a month or so ago (I asked for inspection) agrees with this also. Sure, it is something to keep an eye on but it is not like there is a colony of killer bees in every bush! Sure, you may have to requeen the occasional hot hive or even kill one if you don't manage things but it is not inevitable that all your hives will end up hot. That is just the facts from those of us who actually deal with AHB rather than just reading something somewhere.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

TurnTex said:


> They are all walk away splits without adding a queen.


I have gotten most of my information about bees from BS. The take I got was that this practice was discouraged. It seems natural to me that it would be in an area where you have close neighbors. I will keep my eyes and ears open if there is agreement with you on this subject.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Acebird said:


> ...if we move to FL I will not have bees.


Will you still be giving your invaluable advice on BS when you don't have bees? I bet you will 

AHB genetics are the best thing that could happen to a 'non intervention' sort of guy. Your bees might actually SURVIVE you :lpf:


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