# Can you go treatment free after treating?



## SallyD (Mar 12, 2011)

Just curious-I have had hives for 3 years now and have treated every year with Apilifevar or Apistan. Can you go treatment free after treating a hive? i would hate to lose my bees but then again I don't want to keep treating.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Did you start with commercial packages? Have you requeened with survivor/resistant stock? Commercial bees make great honey but they have been treated for generations and it is not logical to expect them to suddenly be able to survive without those treatments. However, if you requeen with survivor/VSH queens, then your hives have a much better chance of survival once you stop treating. And you don't need to buy II queens to do this. The open-mated F1 VSH queens are very, very resistant to varroa. I know this from personal experience. Keep F1 queens in your hives and you will be amazed at how well they manage mites and brood diseases.

JMO


Rusty


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

You could, but would be better to find someone that has done TF for a few years and get some bees from them, you could even just requeen with TF queens. Be worth the few dollars you'd spend. (This is just my opinion only,) I would not do TF without going foundationless.


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## SallyD (Mar 12, 2011)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> s. The open-mated F1 VSH queens are very, very resistant to varroa. I know this from personal experience. Keep F1 queens in your hives and you will be amazed at how well they manage mites and brood diseases.
> 
> Rusty


Where would you get F1 VSH queens? Two of my hives are swarms- not from my bees- but I have to assume they are from some beekeeper that treats. My other hives are from commercial packages.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Go to http://www.vpqueenbees.com/referral.html for a list of people who use VP Queens' II queens to make F1 queens that they then sell. 

HTH


Rusty


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Of course you can.

I would do an alcohol wash in August, early September and October before first frost.

I'd treat with Oxalic Acid Vapor if the wash showed 3% or more mite load on any alvohol wash.
I'd requeen with a queen from a local (same climate regipn) source known to be successfully treatment free in August so that the overwinter cluster would be all or nearly all bees from that queen.

If it were me, I'd rotate the old cb out as quickly as I could while still being able to let the bees build enough winter stores, even if it means no honey harvest.

That will hive you a hive as clean from mites going in to winter as possible,
No residue from your OAV treatment of ant consequence ( Oxalic Acid occurs naturally in the hive, any traces left behind are not likely to harm.)
It will give you a population overwinter that is mite resistant, a and let you start
next year treatment free with genetics that have s good chance of staying TF and doing well in your climate.


That is, a good start toward locally adapted TF bee stock.
I would continue monitoring mites and using organic acid treatments (I think oav is best, but othetwise would use formic acid) until I was as to have bees that kept control of the mites on their own...that is minimal use of treatments.

Randy Oliver has some good insights toward these ends in his "Sick Bees" series at scientificbeekeeping.com.


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## SallyD (Mar 12, 2011)

Thanks all....such great advice! RustyHill I contacted on of the sources on your links to see about queens availability. By the way does VP and VSH stand for......I assume the V is for Varroa but VSH F1 (generation)?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Can you go treatment free after treating a hive? 

Of course.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

BeeGhost said:


> Sure you could, probably wouldn't have live hives after winter, and I imagine to be completely TF you would have to cycle the "treated" comb out for fresh built "uncontaminated" drawn out frames. Be prepared to put money away each winter for spring packages though.


Another reason to START treatment free from the beginning with treatment free bees? Pass on treated packages and put the money away for treatment free bees. I would imagine you are treating them because of their mite levels? Are you hoping that suddenly their mite levels will drop once you stop treating them?, or hoping they will begin to maintain an appropriate level on their own? What is your game plan for the transition?


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## SallyD (Mar 12, 2011)

Beregondo said:


> Of course you can.
> 
> I would do an alcohol wash in August, early September and October before first frost.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I like your plan- I did contact one of the vendors for queens on the list Rustyhill provided and they said even though their queens are VSH (Varroa Sensitive Hygiene) - they still treat twice a year - they are not treatment free.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

SallyD said:


> Thanks all....such great advice! RustyHill I contacted on of the sources on your links to see about queens availability. By the way does VP and VSH stand for......I assume the V is for Varroa but VSH F1 (generation)?


VSH = Varroa Sensitive Hygiene. VP is just the name of the apiary owned by Adam Finkelstein and his partner. They use instrumental insemination to produce "breeder queens". Adam has posted on here and I believe on his website as well that he does not treat his stock. While some vendors who buy his queens may treat, some do not. I have purchased "production queens" i.e. F1 generation queens produced from Adam's "breeder queens". They came from Johnny Thompson of Philadelphia, MS. (and I believe Johnny's website says he doesn't treat his stock) and I had excellent results from those F1 queens. Johnny is Broke-T here on beesource. I've done some experimenting with my queens and have found that the F1 and F2 generations are quite effectively VSH, but the F3 generation is not. However, this was all done via open-mating and most of my drones were hygienic Cordovans, not VSH and that may make a big difference.

There is no real "silver bullet" as far as mite resistance goes, but you CAN manage varroa quite effectively without chemicals once you understand the basic principles underlying how resistance is transferred. It does take some study and experimenting, tho. If you have not yet read the Glenn website, that would be another good place to start. VSH can be another good tool in your kit of weapons to use on varroa.

I used OAD last year and did not lose any hives this past winter. However, I did not treat with anything at all the year before and didn't lose any hives that year either. I had VSH genetics in the hives both years.

HTH

Rusty


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## Spark (Feb 24, 2011)

I can't see why someone would ask about non-treatment in a non-treatment forum and be met with replies like Beeghost's. Plenty of places to troll if your interested.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Sally, I have been treatment free since 2005, others have longer. My short answer is, No, you cannot go treatment free after treating bees and expect them to survive more than a season or two. The key is the genetics, and the hygiene practices of the bees. Bees that have been consistently treated do not generally make the change over without serious losses.

Having said that, if you requeen with a Treatment Free bee, you can change the hive over successfully... I have used MnHyg, VSH, Bee Weaver, R Russell, Russian, and one other who no longer produces queens. My best luck has been with B. Weaver, and they do not treat, unlike the other vendor you mentioned. 

I realize there are those who would disagree with me. So, for the benefit of this forum and your thread, whatever you decided to do, please report here your decision, and the results of your decision next year. That is how folks learn.

Kindest regards,
Steven


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So far this had happened to me. Bought the mite resistant queens from a reputable breeder. The mother died because of the mites infestation and EFB late winter of last year. The F1 daughter got some resistant against the mites but cannot survive without the help of the OAV treatment. At 80-90% infestation it is hard for them to survive without the treatment. This was their first year. 
The F1 daughter is still alive that I grafted from to make some F2's now. My plan is not to treat if I don't need to and continue to select for the resistant traits. 
After the OAV treatment at 3 consecutive weeks, the rest of the free running mites and capped mites the bees take care of them. No more mites now because of the hygienic behaviors. The on demand OAV gadget is there to fire up when needed. So far so good without any treatment.
So the resistant traits showed up in the F1 generation but not on the mother. Too bad now I don't have anymore mites to run my experiments on. I need to find some local mite infested hives to get some more bees to test.


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## SallyD (Mar 12, 2011)

beepro said:


> The on demand OAV gadget is there to fire up when needed. .


 What is that...the vaporizer?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yes, it is an inexpensive stationary OAV treatment set up under the hive.
So far my bees are healthy so no need to treat them. But the set up is there just in case because
it is so cheap to make. Watch it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D2vLtiF2fI
My plan is only treat when needed. Continue to expand my hives and see which hive has the most
resistant to graft from since I'm also raising my own queens. Earlier this Spring I treated one hive to get rid
of the mites at 80% then their hygienic behavior took over to get rid of the rest. Then I grafted some queens from this
hive and expanded my operation. 
So treat when needed, continue to expand, and graft from the most resistant queens. This plan seems to be working so far. 
Before, seeing the young bees that hatched with deformed wings was heart breaking. Now the happy feeling of seeing young healthy bees that hatched
is beyond anything you can describe. Yes, it is time to get rid of those blood sucking hungry mites. They are like vampires to the bees!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Bee Weaver.

From their site - "_When a BeeWeaver Queen heads your colony you will be able to throw away those expensive mite treatments"._

http://www.beeweaver.com/welcome

I have never used these bees but there has been very positive feedback over the years on Beesource. The only negative being people find some of them aggressive but some of them are docile also.

If I was allowed to import some of these into my country I would.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The aggressive ones you can eliminate over time on the queen selection.
The main thing is the drones in your area. Are they the gentle type too.
Since my area has the carnis that are gentle I'm not sure how aggressive they are once
mated with the weaver queens. I don't have the weaver queen yet because I'm selecting from
another line of Cordovan bees. There is another beekeeper selling the mite biting breeder queens too.
Now that one I would like to try someday.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

If you treat when needed, are you really treatment free? Today I put the fifth shallow super on a four-year old hive of B. Weaver bees... looks like I'll get at least 100 pounds of honey off that hive in my back yard in suburban St. Louis. The rest of my colonies are tracking like normal hives, 20% excellent, 20% dinks, the rest in between.... And as I have consistently reported, no treatments of any kind at all since 2005. Don't do mite counts and all that stuff. My annual losses run from 6% to 25%, depending upon weather. Just reporting. You might also follow the report posted with a sticky at the top of this section of the forum. 
Kindest regards,
Steven


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I'm simply responding to the title of this post and my experience so far with
the treat and no treat experiment on my hive. It is not a treatment free concern anymore but rather
to control the mites and allow the resistant behavior to kick in. If they have then the mites
will be gone otherwise the infestation will continue as soon as some bees bring them home from
somewhere. I have not treat them since early March after the first round of 3 consecutive treatment using
the simple OAV stationary set up. So the conclusion so far is a big 'yes' for me. I will not treat them the second
time. I will either replace the queen by selection or get the resistant breeder queen to requeen them all.
Did a thorough hive check yesterday. Did not see any mites or DWV on the young bees. So the treat and no treat
method is working. So far I have raised two round of queens already without any mites infestation.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

If you are planning to rotate your comb out. Have them draw out and fill a box of foundation during your flow. Pull the box and extract it at the end of the season before you treat for the last time and you will have a whole box of clean combs for next season.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

SallyD said:


> Just curious-I have had hives for 3 years now and have treated every year with Apilifevar or Apistan. Can you go treatment free after treating a hive? i would hate to lose my bees but then again I don't want to keep treating.


As you've seen Sally, its a case of bringing in resistant queens from time to time, because its all about genetics. But if you can arrange good matings (I mean mating with resistant drones) you might find you can break free from that need after a while. 

That means finding good mating locations. Feral bees, if you can find them may well work for you. Keeping well way from treated hives will also make a big difference. 

Try not to treat - or cheat-treat - at all. It just maintains the wrong genetics in the mating pool, and muddies the picture of which will make the best parents. Its essential to have more hives than you want (if you see what I mean) because you will lose some. Follow nature: make too many, doing our best to make them from the strongest parents, then winnow out the weaker ones. That's the name of the game.

Mike (UK)


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

One day I would like to have many treated hives and then put
some mite biting resistant queens in there to see how they do after a few brood
cycles. In another word to requeen them all with the proven breeder queen and her 
daughters. The cost is minimal compare to the time and energy spend on treating the bees.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Metropropolis said:


> At the risk of being biased, I thought it was pretty funny!


As funny as, treating bees then wondering if one can take them to rehab to kick the addiction:lpf: They both were funny, if your laughing On a serious note, one will only know if their bees can survive without treatments, by sourcing some genetics that already can manage/survive on their own without them, & holding course. Yet many "preach" learn to take of bees with treatments, then learn to take of care bees without treatments :scratch:


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