# Top Bar Hive as a Beginner



## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I reckon that a Long Lang is the best of both worlds.

You can put supers on it and use foundationless frames or even just bars for natural comb.

I recommend one that is 3 boxes wide.


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## Learner (Jan 17, 2015)

Matt,

Thanks for the prompt answer.

This is so typical of beekeeping . Since I've been learning about beekeeping, the only thing I've been certain is that there's always one more way of doing anything . I'm googling "long lang" right now.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Here's a link showing my latest one: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?291607-3x-Longhive

The only issue is I have to use a sheet of plastic (clear flexible PVC) on the roof to waterproof it. Weighted down with bricks. Not so pretty, but does the job.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I have only ever kept top bar hives and didn't have any problem "learning" with them. You want 2 hives to begin with so you have interchangeable parts between the hives. Having one topbar and one lang or one long hive, doesn't allow for that. 

You should understand what you want to get out of beekeeping before you decide what type of hive you want. Management styles differ quite a bit from a top bar to a Lang. A long hive leans more toward Lang style of management.

I have a couple of topbar nucs overwintering in Lang equipment (my bars are the same length of a Lang which is a real plus). I do not like working the bees in these two boxes. They tend to be on the feistier side, even though they are smaller colonies. If all Lang colonies are like this, I would not enjoy my bees as much as I do. Plus, I really like the observation window in a top bar hive. Nothing like being able to check on the bees in the dead of winter without opening the box.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Learner,

It really depends on what you want to do. I started this year with the best intentions of giving the bees a place to stay and keeping an eye on them. I started with a Warre' hive and I love it, top bar, fixed combs, and no foundation. BUT after a summer of reading, learning, and deciding on a different direction. I'm going to raise my own queens this summer and need to have the flexibility of the Langstroth hive, I'm also going to use plastic foundations *which I did not want to do* but for the system I'm going to use it works out better. 

I learned a lot with the top bar hive and I will be keeping a few of them but I intend to put my growth behind the Langstroth hive.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

thehackleguy said:


> Learner,
> 
> It really depends on what you want to do. I started this year with the best intentions of giving the bees a place to stay and keeping an eye on them. I started with a Warre' hive and I love it, top bar, fixed combs, and no foundation. BUT after a summer of reading, learning, and deciding on a different direction. I'm going to raise my own queens this summer and need to have the flexibility of the Langstroth hive, I'm also going to use plastic foundations *which I did not want to do* but for the system I'm going to use it works out better.
> 
> I learned a lot with the top bar hive and I will be keeping a few of them but I intend to put my growth behind the Langstroth hive.


Have you tried raising queens with your Warre hive? It's super easy to just remove the queen to a nuc and the bees will turn lots of newly hatched larvae into queen cells. Once they are capped, you can cut them out with a razor blade and put them in whatever hive you want. I did this with my topbar hive a couple of times last year to get an increase. Only "problem" I had were too many capped queen cells and not enough drawn comb and workers to make lots of splits. My local bee club benefited from my problem, as I was able to give away the capped cells. 

Some books will say that the bees pick the wrong age larvae to make into queen, but that isn't the case if they have new comb and fresh eggs/newly hatched larvae to chose from. They also say that emergency queens are not good queens, but as long as the bees are in a robust colony and can rework new comb (vs old brood comb), these cells turn out nice and big.

I will intentionally slip in partially drawn bars of new comb into the brood nest a few days prior to my pulling the queen and she will lay them up with new eggs. And when I pull her, these are the bars that get the queen cells drawn on them. (and in large quantities too)


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Just from what I've read here on BS I would avoid a TBH, they seem to abscond more, lower winter survival, Split winter clusters...


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## krista45036 (Oct 7, 2014)

i'll be doing first bees this spring w/ 2 tbh. will let ya know next year how it went


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

TBH vs Lang is much like Knife & fork vs Chopsticks. Some do better than others with the device. 

A Top bar does require you to be in the hive more (especially initially), get a good straight piece of comb and good comb follows when you have good comb getting built they are a pleasure to work; don't look for a month, let it get cross combed and it's misery. They are great for pollination and people who want a little honey. My wife finds them much more pleasurable to work, I prefer langs for my outyards and honey production. 

I would recommend getting 2 hives of the same style hive and eliminating as many variables as possible, how well a colony builds and survives has much more to do about the colony and the beekeeper than the box.


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## krista45036 (Oct 7, 2014)

i was born to knife & fork, but am also accomplished with chopsticks. 
plunging ahead with my tbh


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## kingd (Oct 31, 2013)

Learner said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I just had a class about top bar hives and this got me excited about TBHs. I'm starting with two hives this season and now I'm wondering whether I should get one TBH and one Lang. Or should I just go with 2 Langs to gain some experience before keeping bees in TBHs? What would you recommend?
> 
> Thank you.


 Lack of experience is what stopped me from starting with them and not finding anyone local to help me. So if there are people in your area that can help you in case you run into problems,that would be a big help.

I have two TBH and have not used them yet mainly because my mentor never used one,We are thinking of trying them out this year though.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I guess I must have a different kind of personality. No, there was no one to mentor me with my first beehive, which happened to be a topbar. In fact, I was shunned by the local clubs for wanting to do one. The guy who made a nuc for my hive still laughs in my face at the meetings and says "oh yeah, you are the topbar girl". Old ways die hard with these seasoned beekeepers.

I forged on anyhow with Beesource and every topbar book I could get (3) and a couple of general beekeeping books (Michael Bush's being one of them). Experience is a great teacher. I started after the spring flow and with only one hive. In it each weekend to see what was going on and taking lots of pictures to review later. I guess now-a-day every beeclub is repeating the mantra "you have to work with someone else's bees for a year and have a mentor before you are allowed to try raising your own bees." Well, without other topbar mentors, that can become very difficult for newbees to get started.

It still all boils down to keeping bees in a box, so the mentor should be able to give you guidance in how to do that even if they don't have personal experience with a topbar. I'm hopeful that more local clubs will recognize the growing trend and begin to incorporate topbars into their beginner classes as just one option for keeping bees.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I ran both. The tbh and the lang for the first season. Second season I traded the TBH for two complete (frames too) langs.

My only TBH that I built and traded.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

ruthiesbees said:


> I guess now-a-day every beeclub is repeating the mantra "you have to work with someone else's bees for a year and have a mentor before you are allowed to try raising your own bees."


:lpf: If I approached life like that I would never get anything done!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The problem with one of each is you have no interchangeability and that limits your options if you have problems. I would do two of the same kind. The other problem is you think you will learn which one works better, but a colony does better or worse, "just because" and not because of the box they are in.


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Just from what I've read here on BS I would avoid a TBH, they seem to abscond more, lower winter survival, Split winter clusters...



Do wintering nucs have a lower winter survival than TBHs???


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

ruthiesbees said:


> Have you tried raising queens with your Warre hive?


I have not but I'm going to. I do like the Warre' and will keep a few but for the intense management I'm planning on doing the Langs will serve me better for my expansion plans.

I'm in no-way trying to dissuade you from top bar.....just giving you an example of reasons why you might choose otherwise.

I also agree with MB and Chuck, two of the same are better than one of each.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>TBH vs Lang is much like Knife & fork vs Chopsticks.

Good comparison. And every one knows that any 3 year old Chinese kid can run chopsticks just fine.


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## Michigander (Jul 31, 2014)

I started with both. I really like my TBHs though I was glad I only started with only two because I have "evolved" my design a bit. My TBHs required more time and energy but I learned the most from them. I really enjoyed having an observation window and could learn and watch without interrupting what was taking place in the hive. It also allowed me to keep an eye on comb building and quickly correct if going off center without having to do an open hive inspection each time. The Langs were easier and required less management but I get more enjoyment out of my Top Bar Hives. Also love the comb honey.


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## BlueRidgeBee (Jun 12, 2013)

I started with 8 frame, all-medium langs just because that's what my (wonderful, invaluable) mentor used. I was in Arkansas then and my mentor had tried tbhs but didn't like all the comb loss when a fully loaded comb peeled off the topbar due to the high humidity combined with high temps in the summer there...which was enough to concern me. Also, there was no one in the club (who wasn't a beginner) who was using them and could help me. 

Have had great luck with the 8-frame langs and am up to 8 hives with a handful of overwintering nucs too. Treatment free. Lots of honey (starting year 3), lots of bees, raising nucs for other people (year 4). Feeling like an advanced-beginner. Now that I have lots of drawn comb (on plastic foundation) I alternate frames with only a starter strip of foundation and have freeform comb too, for comb honey. 

Four years in, I attended a top bar workshop (Les Crowder) out of interest and curiosity. I think it would be such fun to build the tbhs. Walked away kind of amazed that anyone would *start* with topbar. It seemed so much more complicated, seemed to require more skill working very closely with the bees right away (cutting comb that had been attached to the sides to keep it from ripping the comb off the bar; cutting away burr comb, etc). 

I was nervous when messing around a lot in the hives my first couple of years and wasn't that dextrous at first either. All that initial comb management with the tbh may have put me off bees then. 

Now, in my 5th year, I feel I have the skills to try it and I plan to swap bees this spring for a lovely tbh build by a neighbor (who, I have noted, has had some trouble keeping bees alive in tbhs in our cold, wet climate). Want to experiment now, but in my experience, in the two climates I've lived in while beekeeping (hot/humid, then cool/humid) would not recommend to a new beekeper unless there are plenty of experienced mentors available to assist. (At least 4 successful years in, imo. There are lots of beginners who think they know enough to mentor, but the saying 'the map is not the terrain' cannot get any truer than in beekeeping.)


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Cabin said:


> Do wintering nucs have a lower winter survival than TBHs???


I would guess that nucs have a better survival rate, and it might only be because more experienced beek have nucs on hand and more new beek have TBH.

M Palmer and R Oliver seem to have a lot of experience keeping their nucs alive. For me the big 2 and 3 deep hives have the best survival rate. But I am beating these odds by wintering my nucs and smaller hives in the garage during cold spells.





Mr.Beeman said:


> I ran both. The tbh and the lang for the first season. Second season I traded the TBH for two complete (frames too) langs.
> 
> My only TBH that I built and traded.


Beeman curious as to the reasons you traded your TBH?


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