# Open Topic



## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Barry - I am a commercial beekeeper, and wish to use the least chemicals in our hives that I can. We have never used ANY chemcials to combat mites. Please do not cast me, or othere commercials aside. You might be surprised ar what some of us have learned, after all, our livelihodd depends on it. 

Crazy ROland


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

Wow Roland, I didn't know you were treatment free, I'd been told there was only one commercial treatment free beekeeper.

How do you do it?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

No intent to cast anyone aside. I'm sure there are commercial beekeepers interested in this forum, but I'll be the first to acknowledge that commercial beekeepers have a different set of issues to deal with than a hobbyist does. There needs to be this sensitivity between the two when these discussions take place, whether they're verbalized or not. I see a lot of conflict in these discussions coming from this one difference.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

Great post ROland...

We have not had to treat for mites for many many years... and I will add that most big commercial operations that I know do not have to do so either... and the ones that do, only treat a very small percentage of their colonies as these are the only ones that need it.

The HUGE misconception is that commercial guys are chemical bee keepers... NOT at all true... these guys have 'been there, done that" and their experiences are far to valuable to just cast aside because of the erroneous conceptions.

If the intent of this forum is to inform beekeepers "new and old" of ways to keep bees without mass chemical use, then excluding the group that has the most experience in that would be a critical mistake.

It needs to be understood that for the mist part, the only reason that the big commercial guys take the time to come to this forum (or any forum) is because they love bees and bee keeping and want others to enjoy the thing that they do every day of the week... so when a commercial guy says to treat a hive, its not because he likes chemicals, its simply because he doesn't want that person to lose the hive... 

Earlier, Sol mentioned that this forum was not "safe" for treatment free people... I have heard and experienced the exact opposite... thus far, it has been "unsafe" for anyone that is not completely against the use of treatments...


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

I agree, I have no interest in TBH and therefore do not visit that forum, I also have no desire to go into the TBH forum and try to convince them of the error of their ways for not using langs! Yet in this forum that very much seems to be the case....how to fix that?? I have no idea.:scratch: So maybe this post is superfluous since I have no solution to offer. Sure wish I had the answer.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

Russ, I don't have a problem with commerical guys, even the ones that treat, because you guys feed your families with bees, so I understand.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*

Plus, there's way more to beekeeping than wether or not you treat them.

Most of my beekeeping career we treated for nothing, no chemicals were ever put in a hive. But there was still a big difference in production of hives from one beekeeper to another. The difference was the skill of the owner. I think now the treatment thing takes such high priority in some threads that a newbie could be forgiven for thinking there is nothing more to beekeeping than wether or not a person treats.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*



rrussell6870 said:


> Earlier, Sol mentioned that this forum was not "safe" for treatment free people... I have heard and experienced the exact opposite... thus far, it has been "unsafe" for anyone that is not completely against the use of treatments...


I'll abide that. It's been unsafe for most. I was nigh on giving up and leaving when Barry made me moderator. It's like a political argument. It's been one side or the other and no no man's land in the middle. 

I've been having discussions with Oldtimer about being more moderate in our approach.

By the way, I started a new thread with this string because it was completely off topic but good conversation. Let's call this an 'off topic' topic. Feel free to discuss anything.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

My last post was intended for the "how to help the new guy" thread... I felt that those points were important to consider when attempting to make this forum more informative for all (including the newbee...)... that's why I made the post... those of us that are in rush season are having to pull off gloves and use phones to post while resting in the bee yards.. there are far too many threads going on this subject at one time for us to keep up with... so I am going to have to back out of this forum and use my time where I can be of the most service... in the other forums... hope you guys can make it work... good luck.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

The nicer it gets around here, the more people will read. 

I'm not sure if Mr. Russell is expecting that newbees only read the threads with the word "newbee" in them or what. His post does not contain the words beginner, newbee, or freshman, and refers to the treatment vs. non-treatment argument. It was clearly on topic for Roland's post, clearly off topic for the discussion as to how we can better accommodate newbees. Thus, I started a new thread. Case closed.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I treat because I want to insure my investment--bees. But we have gotten away from the more harsh chemicals and are using softer, more green compounds--Thymol, Formic and hopefully hopsguard in the future. We have bred over time a more resistant bee and am down to .93 mites to the hundred bees. Hopefully no mites one day. It is every commercial beekeepers dream to get back to the pre Orwellian days of 1984, and 1986 the years tracheal mite and Varroa respectively showed up and ruined beekeeping. Then we had to treat with something. To exclude the insight and experience of the commercial beekeeper, whether he or she treats or not on the Biological forum is wrong. We work with bees every day and see many things that the average beekeeper does not. Thus giving us a great perspective on the biology of the honeybee and the pest,problems the bees encounter. I hate to see bees die. I hate it when people tell me they lost their bees. Was it preventable, maybe if they had treated with something. Russell said it best, we do not like chemicals and have been forced to use them or recommend them to other beekeepers. Ted Kretschmann


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I'd like to explore why commercial guys think they are being excluded.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Where will that Thread be posted? Under what Forum?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

What are you talking about?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WiredForStereo said:


> I'd like to explore why commercial guys think they are being excluded.


This is what I mean. Where are you going to explore this? I just figured, because of what you have said other places, that you were planning on starting another Thread.

When I post a Post w/out a quote, it usually is in reference to the previous Post. It keeps Exessive Quoting to a minimum.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I believe this is an open topic thread Mark. Anyone can discuss whatever they want, within the bounds of the rules of course.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*



rrussell6870 said:


> The HUGE misconception is that commercial guys are chemical bee keepers... NOT at all true...


I find this hard to believe. Do you have any data that would support this? Adee treats, David Hackenberg treats, Bob Harrison treats, just a few off the top of my head.



> If the intent of this forum is to inform beekeepers "new and old" of ways to keep bees without mass chemical use, then excluding the group that has the most experience in that would be a critical mistake.


Who said they're excluded? They're not. Please don't exaggerate or take out of context what's been said.



> so when a commercial guy says to treat a hive, its not because he likes chemicals, its simply because he doesn't want that person to lose the hive...


Perhaps, but that pretty much goes against what the approach will be in this forum.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WiredForStereo said:


> I believe this is an open topic thread Mark. Anyone can discuss whatever they want, within the bounds of the rules of course.


Apparently not.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Was "Define "treatment free"" Now: What can we do for beginners?*



rrussell6870 said:


> Earlier, Sol mentioned that this forum was not "safe" for treatment free people... I have heard and experienced the exact opposite... thus far, it has been "unsafe" for anyone that is not completely against the use of treatments...


Even those who appreciate both camps, but would like to know the answers to certain questions that come up during Thread discussions.

I have been categorized, told to shut up, told to take my commercial opinions somewhere else, etc., etc.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I know Richard does not treat unless the hive itself needs it... I clearly made that point in my post... over and over I have seen the commercials post that they only treat certain colonies when they need it... meaning that they are managing hundreds if not thousands of colonies successfully with no treatment whatsoever... yet still, they are called "chemical bee keepers" and attacked when they speak on forums about non-treatment...

Mark is right, I have seen countless remarks telling commercial bee keepers that they shouldn't be in this forum, not to mention their posts deleted, moved, or picked apart so that they could be taking out of context... 

The "us vs them" mentality is far worse for our industry than any mites... your members have been screaming that for a VERY long time...


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

On the other side of the coin, some of the commercial beekeepers post the most vicious, sarcastic, passive aggressive and confrontational things on this entire forum.

It all will stop.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

rrussell6870 said:


> I know Richard does not treat unless the hive itself needs it...


Yeah, I think that defines "treatment." We can play a word game about this, fact is there are very, very few commercial that will say they do not treat. Even if they are able to not treat some bees, some times, they still rely on treatments to keep bees alive. Do you know what percentage of his bees Adee treated illegally a few years back?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Again, it is treating for the hives that are being treated... but the thousands that have not needed treatment are not treated... there is no word play here...

And you know I will not discuss the management practices of a fellow bee keeper like that, nor what makes a product "legal" and who gets paid for it to be considered that way... as you have said, I am from the "old school" when bee keepers took care of their bees and each other instead of spread rumors and bad mouthed each other...


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Sol, you have gotten your "digs" in too, during all this bantering back and forth about whether to treat or not to treat. Or what is a treatment and whether there is a true treatment free commercial beekeeper out there in bee land. It boils down to what I have written earlier to you in PM. You can experiment and do things with bees that I cannot. If you loose a colony due to Varroa Predation, it is sad but so bee it. It is not going to cost you your farm, house, land and take food out of your babies mouths. That is what would happen if I "Weavered", and lost thousands of colonies in a years time. I would be out of business and I do not have the deep pockets that the Weavers have to replace all those bees. They bought colony after colony,many thousands to be exact, only to have those die also. Maybe out of a thousand they might have several dozen left to breed off of that were resistant. So we treat with "green" chemicals. It is cheap insurance to spend two thousand dollars on Apiguard (thymol) and treat. Then it is to loose 350,000 dollars worth of bees and a lifestime worth of work by not doing so. That is the difference. TED


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

As a new beekeeper myself I find it great to have so many different opinions. This has been an awesome place for me to get info. I read several posts regardless of what the main topic is or where it's found on this forum. I greatly appreciate all of the work here by many and on all fronts. Even the controversial ones are still good. I have read some, but in the end I think it's good to get everyone talking. I often get a better rounded view on the discussion.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

As long as the topic is open:


How many of you here would not go to the doctor if you where deathly sick, about to die, and knew that he could possibly save your life?

Crazy Roland


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Roland, it is an open topic. This is a beekeeping forum, ergo, stick to bees please. Thanks.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Wired - please cut me some slack here, I believe that there will be some very vaulable lessons from the replies.

Crazy Roland


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

How many here are insects?


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

delber said:


> As a new beekeeper myself I find it great to have so many different opinions. This has been an awesome place for me to get info. I read several posts regardless of what the main topic is or where it's found on this forum....I often get a better rounded view on the discussion.


I too read threads in all parts of this site- commercial included. I learn a whole lot that way. My views are different from other's views, as is equally true for everyone here. I don't have a problem with people keeping bees differently than i want to keep them. I like that there are various places on this site for people who keep bees in different ways.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Roland said:


> As long as the topic is open:
> How many of you here would not go to the doctor if you where deathly sick, about to die, and knew that he could possibly save your life?
> Crazy Roland


Roland, with all due respect, unless you are just trying to be funny by posting this, may I point out that this is a perfect and classic example of a loaded post that is designed to provoke the same old treatment/anti-treatment debate over and over again. _This is the problem._ Does your post belong in the 'natural beekeeping' forum and does it assist and encourage those attempting to learn about and keep their bees without chemicals and medications... or is it merely posted here to provoke, challenge, and disrupt what most folks come to this particular forum for?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Let me say that I am only a sideliner at this point. Moving toward commercial. I monitor mite counts and virus levels closely and only treat those that need it. Last year I needed to treat 15 hives with mite counts of 5 or more mites - all headed by Italians. Used oxalic acid vapor. Waste of time, lost all of them in January even though mite levels all dropped to 1 or less. However, I'm having 90% survival from my Carni hives which are headed by northern bred queens from untreated hives. Mite counts in all of these hives were below 3. I will continue to monitor mites and virus. I do note that when I bring hives home from pollination my mite counts go up and then level off, so there must be some VSH ability in the hives. I ordered a breeder queen from VP queens and will order one [Carni] from Glenn. If they survive this next winter, they will be my breeding stock for the following year. I would love to be treatment free and would like it better if I was able to stop counting those mites.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Omie - I asked the question for a reason. The other half is : Do we have a resonsibilty to take care of our bees, to the bees of our abilities? Substitute another animal, Dog, cat, Cow. What do you think?

I am not looking for fights, just opinions. If posters speak of their beliefs, we should have no problems. 

Crazy Roland


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Roland, it's provoking. We are already taking care of our bees to the best of our ability.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Roland said:


> Omie - I asked the question for a reason. The other half is : Do we have a resonsibilty to take care of our bees, to the bees of our abilities?


"Taking care of our bees" means something different depending on whether you are pro or anti treatments and chemicals. Personally, I don't believe that dosing bees with pesticides and antibiotics is 'taking care of them', even if it keeps some struggling hives from dying from some particular affliction or event. Again, it's the same old pointed implication that treatment-free beekeepers are irresponsible, not interested in having healthy bees, and don't 'properly' 'take care of' their bees. I ask respectfully- do you not see this?
Every time I read something like "Do we have a resonsibilty to take care of our bees?" _I wince._ Why do some people get to decide whether other beekeepers are 'properly' taking care of their bees? Seems to me _everyone_ is having trouble keeping bees healthy these days, whether they are treating or not, so it's not really cool to suggest that beekeepers using different approaches are somehow not being responsible.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Omie, if I come back in another life I would rather be one of your cats, than one of your bees.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Omie,

Perhaps it is the investment and livelihood that is being taken care of. (I'm not expressing an opinion one way or the other on commercial beekeeping so please don't fire off a nasty post at me.) A livelihood or investment is a valid thing to protect.

One can take care of a bee all the live long day, and she's still gonna die in six weeks.

Let us remember that honeybees are hive creatures. Comparisons to humans, cats, or cows don't fit the bill.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I think the theory that Roland was heading towards is that by treating bees, the colonies can live through enough generations of the stress caused by mites and diseases that they can develop their own resistances over time... its true, but takes a very long time and a ton of extremely hard work... I can not honestly recommend it for every operation... but it does help to produce more lineages of resistant bees for the future... again, each colony that dies takes all of the genetic development along with it... if performed properly, there are no "dependencies" involved, just temporary assistance against something that would have never existed in such a devastating form in a natural setting...

This is rarely explained in these discussions, so I felt it important to point out. It's not the income that is so important to most... its the future... both "sides" are simply "methods" to get to the same results...


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WiredForStereo said:


> Let us remember that honeybees are hive creatures. Comparisons to humans, cats, or cows don't fit the bill.


Rather odd statement? The same rules of biology apply to all. "hive creatures", or not.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

No, that is incorrect. The same rules do not apply to hive creatures and solitary creatures.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Thank you Russell for posting that comment. I have been trying to put that into simple words but seemed unable to get that across. As Our bees have become more resistant, we have been able to use less harsh chemicals and slowly even smaller amounts of those. We had bees that were almost resistant across the board, because the bees were tolerating the mites. Then the hive beetle with its associated viruses came in and skewed things back in the other direction. Now the bees are slowly coping with the hive beetle and once again the bees are heading in the direction of tolerance to the mites. The few hives that we had that were totally resistant to the mites, were tested by the USDA and incorporated into a breeding program of theirs with colonies from other parts of the country that showed resistance. It took seven years to develop that odd strain of bee before the USDA got involved.....We "Weavered" on a small scale in three yards. We had to "inbreed' to do this but in the process the bees survived as small colonies built up too slowly and produced smaller honey crops. Mite loads were 1-300 bees based on an alcohol sample of adult bees. Those genetics are out there scattered across the USA. Given enough time, with the dying off of the non Varroa resistant bees, the genetics of the resistant ones are slowly amplifying themselves in the general bee population TK


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WiredForStereo said:


> No, that is incorrect. The same rules do not apply to hive creatures and solitary creatures.


Oh. Well I've learned something.

Which rules are it that don't apply? Survival of the fittest? What?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Obviously no one is trying to keep one bee alive forever... what he was referring to is keeping the lineages alive so that the stresses can be countered via genetic adaptation in time... bees are a complex society creature...(by "bees" we mean colonies)... the stresses felt by one class within the colony are communicated throughout and passed along to the following generations genetically... when viewing the colony as a whole (one creature hereditarily speaking), the genetics are passed along the same way that other creature do, the differences are in the multiple lineages mixed per cycle and the way that multiple entities communicate the stresses through the drones and queen...


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

The ones regarding individuals vs. the collective. 

For instance, in a herd of gazelles, the slow ones get eaten by lions. Each member of the herd carries genetic material.

With honey bees, if a small number of bees die of some disease, all you have is a weaker hive. It is the queen who carries the genetic information. The hive thrives or dies based on her and the drones (now dead, kinda hard to participate in natural selection when you're already dead) she mated with.

The same rules do not apply to bees that apply to cats. A cat can live alone. Not a single bee in a hive is capable of living alone for any significant period of time.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

I'm not saying that commercial beekeepers (or anyone else) should not treat their bees if they care to, if they feel they need to do that to protect their income, their investment, ...or heck, just because they want to! I'm saying that they shouldn't be telling other beekeepers they are being irresponsible or negligent if they don't do the same.
It always comes down to the same basic thing- a _respect_ for other people's methods and beliefs in keeping their bees. 

I'm under the impression that this particular area of BeeSource is for people to discuss and get help on how they can best keep bees without harsh chemical treatments and medications. It's not intended as an area where those people can come to defend themselves against those who disagree with their beekeeping methods. Beginners are rightly frightened away by all this endless pro/anti-treatments arguing and debating. It's combative and never goes anywhere but round and round (like it's doing again here). 

Is the purpose of this natural BK forum area to discourage beginner bk's from trying natural beekeeping techniques? Because that's the end result when people who are not into natural beekeeping use this area simply to question and challenge every thread because they find that to be an interesting pastime or because they think newbies need to be taught a more balanced viewpoint.

Oldtimer- anyone would do well to be reincarnated as one of my cats.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WiredForStereo said:


> The ones regarding individuals vs. the collective.
> 
> For instance, in a herd of gazelles, the slow ones get eaten by lions. Each member of the herd carries genetic material.
> 
> ...



Yes but as you have correctly pointed out in your last post, the queen carries the genetic information. The queen lives or dies with the hive. Correctly, the hive is regarded as a unit, not the individual bees within it. Why, because the individual bees do not reproduce, the hive does as a whole, the genetics being carried by the queen and drones.

So the same rules apply.

However I can see this turning into another one of those arguments over semantics. You can post again Wired to "prove" me wrong, but I'll not bother rising to the bait again on this topic, in this thread, anyway. it will just become semantics.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Let us agree that it is semantics an move on then.

And please call me Sol.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Omie said:


> It's not intended as an area where those people can come to defend themselves against those who disagree with their beekeeping methods.


Actually I think you have hit the nail on the head. If they are not attacked, they would not defend.

I was completely ambivalent about treatment free, and in fact practise it on some of my own hives.
Till I was viciously and rudely attacked by some treatment free folks, who didn't know much. Started getting my back up and (sadly) I succumbed to responding in kind on a few occasions, to my own embarrassment.

I'll add that I've never kept secret that I am somewhat treatment free, and would like to go the whole way. But I've never been abused by anyone from the "treatment brigade".


I'll go even further and say that had I been attacked by the "treatment brigade" in such a rude manner, I would have probably ended up responding in kind and be attacking them. Luckily that didn't happen I've questioned them in places like the commercial forum and they have been very civil.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> If you thought of a colony of bees as an organism


I do. But it is also thousands of individual organisms. Both concepts are valid. 

But a cat is not thousands of individual organisms. A honeybee colony is. They are different. Valid comparisons between the two shall necessarily be limited.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

WiredForStereo said:


> I do. But it is also thousands of individual organisms. Both concepts are valid.
> 
> But a cat is not thousands of individual organisms. A honeybee colony is. They are different. Valid comparisons between the two shall necessarily be limited.


The thousands of individual organisms are not reproductive... but communicative... this is basic bee biology... another good reason for changing the forum title... an educated understanding of that biology should be necessary at the very least. See post 43 and 46...


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

I think of the colony as a organism, a single unit with many parts, each cell/organ system (bees) playing its role. With out any of them the organism fails.


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