# Is Honey Kosher?



## Chef Isaac

I had a lady ask me and I did not know. I looked it up and it says honey is kosher. Does that mean I do not need certification?


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## honeyman46408

While giveing a "Bee tak" to an after school Jewish school the teacher told me that Honey in Kosher but I have read where it is not untill it is certified soooooo:s


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## Michael Palmer

I have a customer that requires the ingredients in their product be kosher. They waived the certification because their rabbi said that honey, as a natural product, is inherently kosher.

Now, you can make it non-kosher by mishandling it.
Diatomaceous earth filters can't be used...only strainers. Used milk bulk tanks can't be used. Other things too that I can't remember.

There are different levels of Kosher. You have to check with your customer how far they want to take it. Some might want your products and premesis to be checked annually. Here, the fee was 3500 from the Brooklyn rabbi, or 1500 from the Montreal rabbi. Not just any rabbi can approve your certificate. They have to be in the group that performs the service.


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## ajs32

inherently speaking, honey is both kosher and halal....go figure


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## akbees

I read an article about rabbis that travel to China to certify kosher. It has alot to do with what your honey comes into contact with and how you process it. So it's not really about the honey, but how you process it and you have to have a rabbi come and certify it.

On the other hand, I don't understand why someone would even ask. I mean really. Is there anything more pure than honey, of course, unless you hang pesticides, your bees frequent nasty pastures, on and on, you lick your fingers alot while processing! Frankly, I have a little trouble with that last one! (just kidding) soapy water is your friend.

http://web.mac.com/thomja/iWeb/Site/Blogtime in Alaska/E5111BB8-746C-4F2C-8E5D-50986947B09F.html


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## DRUR

Michael Palmer said:


> There are different levels of Kosher. You have to check with your customer how far they want to take it. Some might want your products and premesis to be checked annually. Here, the fee was 3500 from the Brooklyn rabbi, or 1500 from the Montreal rabbi. Not just any rabbi can approve your certificate. They have to be in the group that performs the service.


Those prices are ridiculous. Fact is any price is. You guys are opening yourself up to regulation. If Rabbi's can regulate your product and charge you why not the government. Tell them to raise there own or do without in no uncertain terms.:s


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## akbees

Tad rude there.......


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## DRUR

akbees said:


> Tad rude there.......


Wasn't meant to be. When we as beekeepers start giving a religious organization a foothold to "certify" or "license" our product, how do we argue that the government does not have the same right. We would scream bloody murder if the government were to charge $3,500.00 to 'license' our honey, and we sure better be doing the same for a religious group.:no:


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## Chef Isaac

DRUR:

I would have to agree. Some many steps to just get a business and sell things. I hate paperwork. More paperwork=more money out of the pocket.


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## akbees

This is about kosher designation, nothing else. If you don't want to label it as kosher, then don't. This would only be if you wanted to add a chunk of change on it and sell it to the jewish population.

It's the difference between Coca-Cola and Pepsi, one is Kosher and the other is not. It's purely personal choice and as a seller you can choose who you want to sell it to in this case.

I think mormons have similar purchasing opinions. Kosher has nothing to do with the government.


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## Noelle

DRUR said:


> Wasn't meant to be. When we as beekeepers start giving a religious organization a foothold to "certify" or "license" our product, how do we argue that the government does not have the same right. We would scream bloody murder if the government were to charge $3,500.00 to 'license' our honey, and we sure better be doing the same for a religious group.:no:


I have to agree with akbees. If you choose to market a food product to the public then you need to accept the standards that the food industry has adopted. I had to take a certification class on food safety when I owned a restaurant. I paid for it and studied and passed the test because I chose to own a restaurant. I chose not to get kosher certification because my customers did not care about it. If I chose to market my shop and food to a community where it was important I would have done so. It is simply a financial decision. What do your customers want?

by the way - i am sure there are lots of Jewish beekeepers. Being Jewish doesn't make your food product Kosher. In fact the standards for Kosher designation are even more strict for a Jew than for a non-Jew.


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## sqkcrk

akbees said:


> On the other hand, I don't understand why someone would even ask.


Shoot, I have customers, every now and then, who ask if the honey in the jar is REAL Honey. So, I'm not surprised about someone asking about whether Chef's honey is Kosher or not.


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## splank

I read this in L. L. Langstroth's Langstroth's Hive and Honey-Bee

-That honey is a vegatable product, was known to the ancient Jews, one of whose Rabbins asked: "Since we may not eat bees, which are _unclean_, why are we allowed to eat honey?" and replies: "Because bees do not _make_ honey, but only gather it from plants and flowers."-

I believe that is why honey is kosher... but i don't know for sure.


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## sqkcrk

So, when they figure out that bees regurgitate nectar after or while adding an enzyme to it, will they change their mind?

I wonder what makes bees unclean?

Can larvae or pupae be kosher certified?


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## alpha6

From "Jewish Cooking" - 

Why is honey Kosher?

The Mishna in Tractate Bechorot states:

"That which comes from something which is Tameh [non-Kosher] is Tameh, and that which comes of that which is Tahor [Kosher] is Tahor." The product of a non-Kosher animal is not Kosher.

So why is bee honey Kosher?

The Talmud in the same Tractate quotes a Beraita (a Halachic teaching from the time of the Mishna) which says:

"Why did they say that bee-honey is permitted? Because even though they bring it into their bodies, it is not a *product* of their bodies [it is stored there but not produced there]."

All the Sages of the Mishna agree with this ruling. One of them, Rabbi Yaakov, disagrees with the *reasoning*. He claims that bee-honey is Kosher based on his interpretation of Vayikra 11:21. According to him, the verse prohibits one to eat a flying insect, but *not* that which is *excreted* from it.

Maimonides codifies bee-honey as being Kosher, as does the Shulchan Aruch.

You may wonder: How could one even think that bee-honey is not Kosher -- the Torah refers to the Land of Israel as "a Land flowing with milk and honey"! Certainly the Torah would not choose a non-Kosher product as a means for describing the beauty of the Land of Israel! This may come as a surprise, but the honey mentioned in the verse about "milk and honey" is not bee-honey -- rather it is fig-honey. The Talmud in Tractate Berachot tells us that another verse "It is a Land of wheat, barley, grapes, figs and pomegranates -- a Land of olives and *honey*" -- is referring to date-honey.

Sources:

* Tractate Bechorot, pages 5b, 7b.
* The Codes of Maimonides, Laws of Forbidden Foods 3:3.
* Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah, 81:8.
* Tractate Megillah, page 6a, Rashi.
* Chumash, Book of Devarim, 8:8.
* Tractate Berachot, page 41b, Rashi.

http://www.jewishcooking.org/kosherfood/honey.html

So from what I can find, yes, Honey in and of itself is Kosher.


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## Swobee

Ok, for the sake of argument, let's say that honey _*is*_ Kosher. But... are your containers? Is your processing facility? Is the process itself? Is your processing proceedure Kosher? Are you and your employees 'clean'? A resounding answer will be - NO, not according to Kosher advocates. Your facility needs to be inspected by a certified rabbi (at your expense) to obtain the Kosher approval. They will give you the proceedures and how to 'unbless' so to speak, the equipment when you are processing something that is not Kosher. I looked into it for grins and quickly gave up. $$$$$$$$$$$$$ and then some more $$$$$$$$$$. All that said, Kosher products are preferred over 'organic' according to some market research I ran into. Kosher is a more desirable label than organic to many consumers. You may want to go that route, I don't and therefore will not compete with you.


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## MikeJ

Kosher means it is clean and not tainted with unlcean things.
Bees are unclean. They do not hop. Read the books of Moses, the 3 first books of the Holy Bible.
Honey is kosher, I am not sure why but since The LORD says so I think it is safe say so. By "The Lord says so" I mean by the many many references to it as a good thing to eat. Samson ate honey as did John the Baptist and also prophesies mention honey when talking of Christ Jesus. Christ means Messiah. Also the Promise Land was described as flowing with milk and honey.
I am very sure it is known how bees make honey. Kosher/clean was originally designated by God in His Law. The extra books by the Jewish teachers came much much later and I believe complicated and changed some things that are very clear if they are just taken as God gave them and not in an attempt to find a way around them as we humans like to do.

Any product not prohibited by God is kosher, without being certified, such as honey, beef, lamb, and so on, but to be Certified Kosher requires the process mentioned by Mr Bush.
Also many Christians obey the dietary laws set out by God along with the Holy Days.

Of course if you use a product that is prohibitted by God, unclean, in processing the honey then you would make the honey unclean. Just like if you dropped pork meat into beef you would not call the product clean/kosher.

My answer to anyone asking if honey is kosher would be "yes all honey is kosher as long as it is kept pure, but I can not afford to be certified kosher". I would probably invite them to watch me process the honey.


The money paid to the Orthodox Union or such is to receive their stamp marking it kosher. They inspect the product's ingredients and how it is processed. I do not think it is crazy if they want to charge to do this. It does open some large markets. It is not much different than getting Certified Organic, except it is based on religion, something not to bad to base things on.

Cetified Organic costs lots 

I have not heard of a "blessing" that makes something kosher. It is not about blessing it is based on clean and unclean. You can not "unbless" something then use it on unclean things. God gives in the Bible the rules that govern containers and such that had anything unclean in them. They were to be washed, some cetain things were to be destroyed but those type containers are rarely used anymore.


If you want to know all mentions of "Honey" in the Bible:
Genesis 43:11 (KJV) 
And their father Israel said unto them, If it must be so now, do this; take of the best fruits in the land in your vessels, and carry down the man a present, a little balm, and a little honey, spices, and myrrh, nuts, and almonds: 

Exodus 3:8 (KJV) 
And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites. 

Exodus 3:17 (KJV) 
And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey. 

Exodus 13:5 (KJV) 
And it shall be when the Lord shall bring thee into the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee, a land flowing with milk and honey, that thou shalt keep this service in this month. 

Exodus 16:31 (KJV) 
And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it was like coriander seed, white; and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey. 

Exodus 33:3 (KJV) 
Unto a land flowing with milk and honey: for I will not go up in the midst of thee; for thou art a stiffnecked people: lest I consume thee in the way. 

Leviticus 2:11 (KJV) 
No meat offering, which ye shall bring unto the Lord, shall be made with leaven: for ye shall burn no leaven, nor any honey, in any offering of the Lord made by fire. 

Leviticus 20:24 (KJV) 
But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the Lord your God, which have separated you from other people. 

Numbers 13:27 (KJV) 
And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it. 

Numbers 14:8 (KJV) 
If the Lord delight in us, then he will bring us into this land, and give it us; a land which floweth with milk and honey. 

Numbers 16:13-14 (KJV) 
Is it a small thing that thou hast brought us up out of a land that floweth with milk and honey, to kill us in the wilderness, except thou make thyself altogether a prince over us? [14] Moreover thou hast not brought us into a land that floweth with milk and honey, or given us inheritance of fields and vineyards: wilt thou put out the eyes of these men? we will not come up. 

Deut. 6:3 (KJV) 
Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey. 

Deut. 8:8 (KJV) 
A land of wheat, and barley, and vines, and fig trees, and pomegranates; a land of oil olive, and honey; 

Deut. 11:9 (KJV) 
And that ye may prolong your days in the land, which the Lord sware unto your fathers to give unto them and to their seed, a land that floweth with milk and honey. 

Deut. 26:9 (KJV) 
And he hath brought us into this place, and hath given us this land, even a land that floweth with milk and honey. 

Deut. 26:15 (KJV) 
Look down from thy holy habitation, from heaven, and bless thy people Israel, and the land which thou hast given us, as thou swarest unto our fathers, a land that floweth with milk and honey. 

Deut. 27:3 (KJV) 
And thou shalt write upon them all the words of this law, when thou art passed over, that thou mayest go in unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, a land that floweth with milk and honey; as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee. 

Deut. 31:20 (KJV) 
For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant. 

Deut. 32:13 (KJV) 
He made him ride on the high places of the earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock; 

Joshua 5:6 (KJV) 
For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the Lord: unto whom the Lord sware that he would not shew them the land, which the Lord sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey. 

Judges 14:8-9 (KJV) 
And after a time he returned to take her, and he turned aside to see the carcase of the lion: and, behold, there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcase of the lion. [9] And he took thereof in his hands, and went on eating, and came to his father and mother, and he gave them, and they did eat: but he told not them that he had taken the honey out of the carcase of the lion. 

Judges 14:18 (KJV) 
And the men of the city said unto him on the seventh day before the sun went down, What is sweeter than honey? and what is stronger than a lion? And he said unto them, If ye had not plowed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle. 

1 Samuel 14:25-26 (KJV) 
And all they of the land came to a wood; and there was honey upon the ground. [26] And when the people were come into the wood, behold, the honey dropped; but no man put his hand to his mouth: for the people feared the oath. 

1 Samuel 14:29 (KJV) 
Then said Jonathan, My father hath troubled the land: see, I pray you, how mine eyes have been enlightened, because I tasted a little of this honey. 

1 Samuel 14:43 (KJV) 
Then Saul said to Jonathan, Tell me what thou hast done. And Jonathan told him, and said, I did but taste a little honey with the end of the rod that was in mine hand, and, lo, I must die. 

2 Samuel 17:29 (KJV) 
And honey, and butter, and sheep, and cheese of kine, for David, and for the people that were with him, to eat: for they said, The people is hungry, and weary, and thirsty, in the wilderness. 

1 Kings 14:3 (KJV) 
And take with thee ten loaves, and cracknels, and a cruse of honey, and go to him: he shall tell thee what shall become of the child. 

2 Kings 18:32 (KJV) 
Until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of corn and wine, a land of bread and vineyards, a land of oil olive and of honey, that ye may live, and not die: and hearken not unto Hezekiah, when he persuadeth you, saying, The Lord will deliver us. 

2 Chron. 31:5 (KJV) 
And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly. 

Job 20:17 (KJV) 
He shall not see the rivers, the floods, the brooks of honey and butter. 

Psalm 19:10 (KJV) 
More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. 

Psalm 81:16 (KJV) 
He should have fed them also with the finest of the wheat: and with honey out of the rock should I have satisfied thee. 

Psalm 119:103 (KJV) 
How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth! 

Proverbs 24:13 (KJV) 
My son, eat thou honey, because it is good; and the honeycomb, which is sweet to thy taste: 

Proverbs 25:16 (KJV) 
Hast thou found honey? eat so much as is sufficient for thee, lest thou be filled therewith, and vomit it. 

Proverbs 25:27 (KJV) 
It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 

Song 4:11 (KJV) 
Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue; and the smell of thy garments is like the smell of Lebanon. 

Song 5:1 (KJV) 
I am come into my garden, my sister, my spouse: I have gathered my myrrh with my spice; I have eaten my honeycomb with my honey; I have drunk my wine with my milk: eat, O friends; drink, yea, drink abundantly, O beloved. 

Isaiah 7:15 (KJV) 
Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. 

Isaiah 7:22 (KJV) 
And it shall come to pass, for the abundance of milk that they shall give he shall eat butter: for butter and honey shall every one eat that is left in the land. 

Jeremiah 11:5 (KJV) 
That I may perform the oath which I have sworn unto your fathers, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey, as it is this day. Then answered I, and said, So be it, O Lord. 

Jeremiah 32:22 (KJV) 
And hast given them this land, which thou didst swear to their fathers to give them, a land flowing with milk and honey; 

Jeremiah 41:8 (KJV) 
But ten men were found among them that said unto Ishmael, Slay us not: for we have treasures in the field, of wheat, and of barley, and of oil, and of honey. So he forbare, and slew them not among their brethren. 

Ezekiel 3:3 (KJV) 
And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness. 

Ezekiel 16:13 (KJV) 
Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom. 

Ezekiel 16:19 (KJV) 
My meat also which I gave thee, fine flour, and oil, and honey, wherewith I fed thee, thou hast even set it before them for a sweet savour: and thus it was, saith the Lord God. 

Ezekiel 20:6 (KJV) 
In the day that I lifted up mine hand unto them, to bring them forth of the land of Egypt into a land that I had espied for them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands: 

Ezekiel 20:15 (KJV) 
Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into the land which I had given them, flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands; 

Ezekiel 27:17 (KJV) 
Judah, and the land of Israel, they were thy merchants: they traded in thy market wheat of Minnith, and Pannag, and honey, and oil, and balm. 

Matthew 3:4 (KJV) 
And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. 

Mark 1:6 (KJV) 
And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; 

Rev. 10:9-10 (KJV) 
And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. [10] And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.


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## winevines

alpha6 said:


> From "Jewish Cooking" -
> 
> So why is bee honey Kosher?
> 
> "Why did they say that bee-honey is permitted? Because even though they bring it into their bodies, it is not a *product* of their bodies [it is stored there but not produced there]."
> date-honey.


Thanks for these references. I was going to look this up myself, as I recall researching it and finding similar citations. As you found out, according to Jewish law, honey IS considered kosher for these reasons you mentioned. What "the bible" says about honey and bees is sort of meaningless, as the rules of kosher are not in there directly.
I would also like add my 2 cents that I have found beekeeping to be a lot like studying Judaism, LOTS of different "rules" and opinions based on interpretation and meaning.


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## MikeJ

winevines said:


> Thanks for these references. I was going to look this up myself, as I recall researching it and finding similar citations. As you found out, according to Jewish law, honey IS considered kosher for these reasons you mentioned. What "the bible" says about honey and bees is sort of meaningless, as the rules of kosher are not in there directly.
> I would also like add my 2 cents that I have found beekeeping to be a lot like studying Judaism, LOTS of different "rules" and opinions based on interpretation and meaning.


What the Bible says should be very relevant since the idea of kosher is based on the clean and unclean Laws. I agree that "kosher" has been expanded beyond what God gave, as I said. Such as God forbidding the boiling of a kid in it's mother's milk, while "kosher" requires no dairy products to be combined with meat.. though Abraham himself gave the two Angels meat and milk together in a meal. I think Jesus describes the problems very accurately.

Mike


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## deknow

DRUR said:


> When we as beekeepers start giving a religious organization a foothold to "certify" or "license" our product, how do we argue that the government does not have the same right.


uhhh, what we are talking about is a VOLUNTARY certification that can obtained in order to sell to a market that would otherwise be closed to your (or someone elses) product. there is nothing REQUIRED, there are no RIGHTS being given up.

fwiw, the government does have the right to certify and/or license food processing facilities and food products.

deknow


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## DRUR

deknow said:


> fwiw, the government does have the right to certify and/or license food processing facilities and food products.
> 
> deknow


Interesting concept, where in the constitution did the 'government' specifically get this 'right'. Government was formed to 'protect' our life liberty and pursuit of happiness. Common law is 'buyer be ware'. A license is permission to do that which without said license would be illegal. So let me get this, farmer raises his crop but can't sell or trade his product without a 'license' right. 

I certainly agree that the johnny come lately would have this attitude. They don't have any concept of what my ancestors did when they conquered this country and formed a completely different type of sovereignty, one in which the people were sovereign only under the Creator. Neither my ancestors nor do I give permission for this type of regulation. But Tyranny reigns for a while, till the people slap 'government' back into there place.


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## deknow

unless you are producing all of your own food (save what you barter with others that also refuse to be licensed), and never, ever, ever, eat at a restaurant that is licensed, never ever, ever buy any kind of food at a store that has to be licensied, then you are supporting the system that you claim you and your ancestors don't support....you are helping to perpetuate it.

personally, our facility has been inspected and licensed by both the state and our town (and are subject to federal inspection as well). it was a big pain. that said, when i go out to eat, or buy food (raw or processed), i'm happy that the producer is also licensed and inspected. not a guarantee of anything, but a step in the right direction.

all things being equal (and they are not always equal), i'd buy from an inspected facillity before one that simply claimed "we don't need no stinking govt inspections". if one claimed (and could document) adhereing to a higher standard (or even a different one), that would be one thing, but simply, "the govt has no right to inspect" doesn't cut the mustard (or wouldn't when it comes to how i spend my money).

as for your ancestors and your creator...that's your business. i can't imagine that i'd want my decendants 200-500 years from now "speaking for me", as i can't imagine that our perspectives would be anything close to similar. kind of like speculating what model of ipod my great great grandfather would buy.

thankfully, we are not sovereign under anyone's creator, as i can't think of one that doesn't have the blood of innocents on his/her/it's hands....unapologetically.(edit here...i had put apologetically by mistake)

if your house were burning down, would you prevent firefighters from entering your propertly to put it out? what if your neighbor refused to allow firefighters in, and the result was clear that your house would go down next? i don't remember reading anything in the constitution about firefighters, so therefore they should not exist (at least not as pubilc employees).



> So let me get this, farmer raises his crop but can't sell or trade his product without a 'license' right.


it depends.

deknow


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## GRIMBEE

All kosher means is that a Jewish Rabbi blessed it.:lpf:


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## lstclair

GRIMBEE said:


> All kosher means is that a Jewish Rabbi blessed it.:lpf:


No. It means that a rabbi has inspected the facilities and even observed the processing. I described my processing to our local Chabad (very Orthodox) rabbi, and he said he would come watch and certify the honey. 

Kosher isn't just "abracadabra," but adherence to a strict set of rules that govern food processing and handling.

Honey in of itself is kosher and, as someone else pointed out, it's the processing and handling that could make it unclean.

No one has to get kosher certification, so those of you who are afraid that it will inspire the government to some battering how your honey house door, chill. If you don't want to sell to the observant Jewish community, don't. Shrug.


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## GRIMBEE

:lpf:


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## uncletom

Not much of a Jewish population in this neck of the woods.... but there are a lot of Catholics..... And.... I do have a brother in law that’s a priest......so.... you guys got me thinking.... if I get him to come over and bless my honey could I get more $$$$ for it? Yes that’s it! Ill get a corner on the catholic honey market! I bet he'd do it for a home cooked meal and a couple of cold brewskies. Might have to let him sit in my lazy boy during a Steelers game too.....Still pretty cheep, as I don’t know no Rabbis....

Sorry Chef..... It just seemed this thread was getting a little out there and I thought I should add to it.....


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## Truchaos

sqkcrk said:


> Shoot, I have customers, every now and then, who ask if the honey in the jar is REAL Honey. So, I'm not surprised about someone asking about whether Chef's honey is Kosher or not.



I'm not a food purist but depending where you get your honey, there is a chance that it isn't actually honey. China for example has been caught selling syrupy liquids as honey (not actually honey). At least one large scale American honey distributor has been caught selling smuggled honey (from China). Because of the low cost, there is a financial incentive to buy and sell these potentially hazardous products. 

China has also been caught selling contaminated honey. 

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/394053_honey30.asp

This has all been in the press so it's no wonder people ask if it's "real honey". Frankly, when I see honey on the shelf at the local grocery store, I sometimes wonder the same thing.


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## Michael Palmer

Truchaos said:


> China for example has been caught selling syrupy liquids as honey (not actually honey).


China is exporting a product called "Honey Syrup." It's a blend of sugar syrup and honey. If the product contains less that 50% honey, it can be called honey syrup. This allows Chinese honey exporters to escape paying the high duties on Chinese honey. I understand that much of the honey syrup is actually honey, and only labelled honey syrup. Just another example of the Chinese Gov't taking advantage of us.


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## BigDru

I think mormons have similar purchasing opinions. Kosher has nothing to do with the government.[/QUOTE]


The only purchasing opinions mormons have is a personal opinion. We don't have any strict eccesiastcal guidlines for manufacturing. Maybe it should be up to the bees to get the Kosher stamp of approval since they are the ones doing all the manufacturing.


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## Tom G. Laury

*Mormons*

I love driving through Utah and seeing the State Symbol, a bee hive.


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## Maine_Beekeeper

*Maine Kosher Honey!*

The local Portland Orthodox Rabbi recently contacted me to purchase small gift size jars of honey to buy and then give as gifts for Rosh Hashana. (Jewish New Year which is traditionally celebrated with honey) 
He expressed interest in certifying my honey kosher and I said "sure!" (not a big Jewish population here in Maine but my step father is and his parents too, so I'm totally open to the idea.)
The Rabbi came, inspected my extracting area (corner of kitchen), asked some very good questions about my bee management and honey extraction procedures, and certified us Kosher. From what he tells me we are the only certified Kosher honey produced in Maine. 
Not a big deal, no expense at all to me, and just gets the bee's word out there a little more. 
MP, I don't know if my Rabbi has jurisdiction over your area but I'd be happy to hook the two of you up, the kind of charges you are citing are pretty ridiculous, considering you are providing a major service in providing the local honey. 
You need a cooler Rabbi.


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## DRUR

*Re: Maine Kosher Honey!*



Maine_Beekeeper said:


> The Rabbi came, inspected my extracting area (corner of kitchen), asked some very good questions about my bee management and honey extraction procedures, and certified us Kosher. From what he tells me we are the only certified Kosher honey produced in Maine.
> Not a big deal, no expense at all to me, and just gets the bee's word out there a little more.


Maine, this is the way it should be. You accommodating them for their cleanliness restriction, and them giving you approval without charging a 'tax' for the inspection. This benefited the Jewish population, knowing that they could now comsume your product without compromising their religious restrictions. It also educated you (thereby making you sensitive to their needs) concerning their limitations. This increases awareness on our part and serves to benefit the customer. Seems to me like both parties were out the time to do the inspection, and educational and beneficial to both parties. I justy hope that the Rabbi was not so accomodating only because of your relationship.


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## Barry Tolson

*Re: Maine Kosher Honey!*

I've been down in my back the past several months and just now saw this thread. Interesting indeed. I'm no kosher supervisor, but have friends who are. My honey does not have a hechsher(the kosher symbol) on it. Several year ago a local kosher supervisor in our community discussed my operation with me and said there was really no point in me going to the expense of official kosher certification. His reasons...honey is naturally kosher...I am very familiar with kashruth(the laws of keeping kosher)...with that I would not be doing things that might unintentionally render my product not-kosher. Interesting that honey is the only kosher food that comes from a non-kosher source! This honey thing used to come up quite a bit at the Wednesday night kashruth class. This is a good time for honey, with the high holy days starting this weekend. 
A fresh carrot is kosher by virtue of it being a vegetable....it doesn't need approval. my understanding is that the situation is similar with honey. It's already kosher...so if it comes from a reputable source, there should be no problem. Yet another reason to buy honey from your local producer instead of imported chinese honey from argentina!
Just my two cents-worth, but when in doubt, consult your local orthodox rabbi.


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## deknow

a word of caution here:

although honey is a raw product that isn't not kosher, it can be handled in a way that it isn't (for instance, i would expect that if you or your help eats pulled pork sandwiches in the production space...even at a dedicated lunch table, that would be a problem).

a rabbi can certainly look at your operation and deem it kosher, but actual certification is another issue all together, for that you need a certifiying agency, not just a rabbi...no matter how orthodox he may be.

some will care about certification, some won't...but approval by a local rabbi is not certification, and you can't simply start advertising (or putting on the label) that your product is kosher.

if you sell to a group or individual that wants a product that is certified kosher, and you tell them that yours is because a rabbi inspected it, you would not be telling the truth, and would be in a position of false advertising.

i know of at least one kosher deli that was closed down for good because the truck the actual kosher meat was shipped on also had non kosher meat. by the rules of certification, this makes the kosher meat not kosher.

this is a big potential market. if you don't think you can profit from being certified, then it isn't worth it.

deknow


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## DRUR

deknow said:


> a word of caution here:deknow


When I go to sale my Honey, I think I will put a label on my honey, which states, 'guaranteed kosher' according to the Bible. The rest can take it or leave it. How is that for your 'Kosher' certification tax. 

deknow seems like you promote contention instead of sensitivity to catering to the needs of those who prefer a so-called 'Kosher' product. From Merriam-Webster Dictionary "2 : being proper, acceptable, or satisfactory".

deknow I will try to 'accommodate' any group whether they be Protestant, Catholic, Jew, Islamic, black, white, brown, yellow, pink or purple. But don't hold me captive to a 'tax' to sell my product.


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## LenInNorCal

DRUR said:


> When I go to sale my Honey, I think I will put a label on my honey, which states, 'guaranteed kosher' according to the Bible. The rest can take it or leave it. How is that for your 'Kosher' certification tax.


So a couple thousand years of men arguing about any single line and the meaning is all taken easy by you to be pure, true, good and accurate? I don't think so. You going to follow all 647 laws of the OT? Or just think "good thoughts" of the New? And that is good enough? OK.



DRUR said:


> deknow seems like you promote contention instead of sensitivity to catering to the needs of those who prefer a so-called 'Kosher' product. From Merriam-Webster Dictionary "2 : being proper, acceptable, or satisfactory".


So what is being proper, acceptable or satisfactory is it?
Merriam-Webster only give the BASE definition of a word!




DRUR said:


> deknow I will try to 'accommodate' any group whether they be Protestant, Catholic, Jew, Islamic, black, white, brown, yellow, pink or purple. But don't hold me captive to a 'tax' to sell my product.


I didn't know you were forced to pay a Rabbi, like the IRS. 
But then being free you are not forced to pay them either. AND you will get free room and board for five years!

Not TO sorry, just a bit in a bad mood after reading stuff like this AND listening to the news. I think I will go out and look at my bees going in and out.


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## DRUR

LenInNorCal said:


> Not TO sorry, just a bit in a bad mood after reading stuff like this AND listening to the news. I think I will go out and look at my bees going in and out.


Don't really get your point and apparently you didn't get mine. I certainly won't display the copyrighted "kosher" tax symbols on my honey, but if I want to advertise my honey as being 'kosher' (although notice I did not say 'certified'), I certainly will. But even if I want to state it is 'certified', I guess I can get any 'Baptist' preacher to do the so-called certification. And you are right, getting the copyrighted kosher certification is 'voluntary', but I suppose that certain industries pay this coerced 'tax' to the Jews under threat of boycott (although not overtly, but rather covertly).

Also, take note, that this is no slander against the Jewish people as a whole, but like a few (probably a majority now) politicians that have risen to power positions (power corrupts and absolute power absolutely corrupts), a few have tainted the perception of the whole, which I also find disgusting. Judge each man on his own merits, not on the merits of a group.

My point Len is that We should strive to accommondate all, Why? Because it is just decency in dealings with our fellow man. But, then when that accommondation is converted in a manner that allows one group to take the labor of another group without significantly contributing to the production of the commondity, In my opionion, this is theft and coercion. And when you push against me, I will plant my feet, and if that doesn't work, you darn well better step back and start ducking, because I will take the offensive if you continue to try to steal my labor.

GIVE ME LIBERTY, OR DEATH IS RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER FOR ONE OF US, AND WHETHER IT BE ME, I care not as I have stored up my treasures in a different place. Gayen Mitt Gott, Vaya Con Dios.


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## dni

Things are certified kosher (or halall, or gluten free, etc.) to accommodate people that it is important to (for a number of reasons).

For those people there is a value to it.

Certification takes time, effort, and expertise. 

Time = $.

Think about it another way - if you were deathly allergic to peanuts, would it be worth something to have the food you bought be certified as being peanut-free?


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## DRUR

dni said:


> For those people there is a value to it. Certification takes time, effort, and expertise. Time = $.


My exact sentiments, that is why I think they should be paying us about $10,000 per hour for them to come out and make sure that we are producing a Kosher product for their benefit.


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