# The road to treatment free...



## BernhardHeuvel

You best go for 3) as it doesn't produce unnecessary losses. Cold turkey means 100 % losses every third/fourth year, no honey, lot of money into the sink. Orientate at the Kefuss approach: http://www.immenfreunde.de/SBT.pdf

That's the most sustainable and practical approach in breeding for resistance. I have good success doing so - without unnecessary bee killing.

PS: Forget about regressing bees, it is waste of money and time. You can get the same results without this small cell stuff.


----------



## aunt betty

Just quit treating and try to keep your bees alive. Breed the survivors. Decide what you're managing for, honey or bees. My philosophy is to raise lots of bees and the honey will follow. More of a hobbyist at this point so am not so wrapped up in the numbers. 

Propping up the weak ones with chemicals is not sustainable imo. (if you're selling the chemicals, that's different) 
Let bees be bees and they'll fix it, whatever "it" is. Buona fortuna with whatever path you choose.

My apiary and yours are nearly the same scale. 20-ish colonies.


----------



## jwcarlson

If you just cut them off... get ready for devastation in the second winter.


----------



## bevy's honeybees

What are your winters like? I went cold turkey in my second year and my average losses are about 2-4hives per year. Our tough time here is summer, not winter. 

I have slowly grown from 4 hives the first year to now in the 40's in my 6th year. I lost 2 hives this year. One was a nuk that I believe became overcrowded, overheated, collapse. The other may have been queen failure. As I don't treat, I really don't know why the loss. I watch closely for AFB. This year I am much more aggressive with failing queens and non hygienic hives so I expect even fewer losses. I also started raising my own queens.


----------



## Phoebee

What is the scale of your operation? Most of us small-time backyard beekeepers have a snowball's chance in heck of breeding TF bees from scratch. However, our state bee inspector has told our club that he wishes the large commercial guys would set aside about 25% of their hives and go TF. The results would initially be horrid (see jwcarlson), but he is confident that selection from survivors will eventually work, as it has with other bee diseases.

The "treat when necessary" approach is what I do but it is also almost certain to NOT produce TF bees. To get to TF, the bees that ever need treatment must die.

There is, however, another option. Join a club, meet TF beekeepers IN YOUR AREA, and see if they can be persuaded to part with a nuc or two or some queens that have already shown some ability to deal with mites on their own.

You might even stumble on to feral bees, or an old hive untended for a decade (somebody here found one recently), that have done it on their own.


----------



## jwcarlson

bevy's honeybees said:


> Our tough time here is summer, not winter.


That's probably accurate. Either way... year two. You'll notice it when you first check the brood in spring after the first winter. It will gradually subside when the queen outlays them (unless they are too weak to grow). But eventually when the eggs slow down the mites per larva ratio goes through the roof and that's when you've got trouble. The EFB looking snot brood in some of my colonies seemed to "clear up", it was really just diluted more in the hive if I'm being honest.

Part of the trouble for people running 2-20 hives thinking they'll be treatment free is the affect on others in their area when their experiment goes south as it pretty much has to for the whole theory to work.

You're not breeding some super bee with four hives in your yard... there is some complex here that's a bit dangerous for new people. Is TF possible? Absolutely... but until you understand beekeeping a little bit better... you can't read between the lines so well. Relentless splitting, selling off lots of nucs (meaning lots of mites), etc.

Phoebee, clean colonies up and requeen with better genetics. It makes no sense to me why people wouldn't take this approach vs. just letting them die/abscond/drift/be robbed. Frankly... it's not being a very good bee-neighbor as I don't think there's anyone who has bees so well adapted to mites that they could take a massive influx from a collapsing colony well.


----------



## Stonewall

I would think that if anyone were to stumble on a long term untreated hive or feral colony, the queens and bees generated from them would be worth a fortune. Likewise, if through significant effort the resistance to disease were cultured into a group of hives, the product of this effort would be in high demand.

I have not seen this happen, what am I missing?


----------



## crofter

Stonewall said:


> I would think that if anyone were to stumble on a long term untreated hive or feral colony, the queens and bees generated from them would be worth a fortune. Likewise, if through significant effort the resistance to disease were cultured into a group of hives, the product of this effort would be in high demand.
> 
> I have not seen this happen, what am I missing?


If it were a closed group of hives, maybe only till you move them and expose them to other drones or pests with a different genetic virulence.

Is your breeding program buying new bees like buying lottery tickets with the feeling of assurance that "eventually You must win"?

I dont know what route I would take since so many of the avenues are supported by ideological issues many of which have debatable or even contraditory value. Very hard to pin down the real cause of any short term apparent progress.

I hope you have more time, more patience and deeper pockets than I do.


----------



## Phoebee

Stonewall said:


> I would think that if anyone were to stumble on a long term untreated hive or feral colony, the queens and bees generated from them would be worth a fortune. Likewise, if through significant effort the resistance to disease were cultured into a group of hives, the product of this effort would be in high demand.
> 
> I have not seen this happen, what am I missing?


There was a thread about a month ago on this. The search engine is timing out looking for it. The first though in my mind was ... breed those bees and I'd like a queen. Somebody here was asking about saving a decade-neglected hive with decaying woodenware but a full of survivor bees. And there is another about survivor colonies living feral in the northeast.


----------



## Joe Hillmann

You may be better off starting by buying queens from someone or better yet several different people who is/are already breeding for mite resistance. That way you get several lines of genetics of bees that are already resistant to mites. 

Another way to get mite resistant bees is to collect all the swarms you can get. Of course it is probably impossible to tell if a swarm is from bees that have lived on their own for years or if they just swarmed the day before from an apiary that uses heavy doses of treatments.

If you start with what you already have you may have very limited genetics to start with. If you are lucky that could be a good thing but more than likely it isn't/


----------



## enjambres

I am very skeptical of the notion of "survivor bees". 

Before I kept bees, I had honey bees living in the same cavities of two walls of one of my barns for twenty years. Bees were never not there during the summer. I know this because I kept careful notes and this barn is only about 50 feet from my house, so very easy to check often.

In the late Fall of of 2012, bees were definitely there and kicking. One of my last pre-winter chores is putting a ladder up over the bee-colony entrances and closing up a hay-mow door above them, so I always knew the bees were alive and active just before winter took a hard grip. In the late Spring of 2013, no bees were alive in those cavities (and no dead bees there, either). Hundreds of pounds of stores left behind - truly an enormous quantity. I have no idea what happened to the barn-living bees.

Then in late May 2013,first one, then two, and finally, _three_ separate swarms moved into those cavities - attracted no doubt to smell of all that honey and the rich resource it represented. These three colonies were hived on June 23rd. I still have them all. One colony has replaced its orginal queen (just this summer), but the other two (marked) old girls are still laying well, now in the their third summer with me. I have made splits from all three.

I live in an area with a good number of unmanaged, feral hive sites, most of which are occupied every year. There are a few backyard beekeepers but not much swarming from their hives. These feral bee colony locations seem to be serially occupied, and then reoccupied, by successive colonies, but not necessarily continuously occupied by the same colonies. So what I see is not so much survivor bees, but survivor _premises._ 

My bees, sturdy little mutt-girls that they are, are all swarms from local bees, likely with at least some chance of being from "unmanaged/feral" stock genetics, if not wholly from unmanaged sources. They are thriving under my care, which includes minimalistic, but effective, treatment for varroa. But without that treatment I think I'd be seeing the boom and bust pattern that I see in the feral colonies I know about near me. 

Just in the past month, a very large bee tree, with a cavity-living colony that has been _in situ _for at least three years has simply been abandonned, leaving no dead bees behind that I can see. (Their disappearance corresponds to a period when I saw a marked increase in scouts perusing the barn area that my own hives settled into in 2013. Since my bees were hived I have not stopped up the barn openings, but I have removed the stockpile of stores. Nobody has claimed the space in my barns since then.) 

With the peripatetic nature of modern beekeeping I think the idea that survivor bees will have somehow spontaneously evolved a strong-enough, heritable-enough, reliable resistance/ tolerance/ behavioral modification to mites is very, very, unlikely. At best, localized bees might, if isolated enough, establish some kind of survivable equilibrium with the extant varroa mites. But directly that new bees with even slightly different strains of varroa showed up, all bets are off. And beekeepers move bees (and their mites) at the drop of a hat. In some ways the current fad for keeping bees in order "to save the bees", may be making things even worse as it brings (repeatedly in the case of TF enthusiasts, with their small-scale Bond experiments) novel bees into even more locations. And each time a new genetic strain of varroa is delivered, free of charge, with that package or nuc.

Enj.


----------



## Joe Hillmann

Stonewall said:


> I would think that if anyone were to stumble on a long term untreated hive or feral colony, the queens and bees generated from them would be worth a fortune.



Just because the hive hasn't been touched for 10 years and it had bees in it doesn't mean those bees were treatment free. The hive could have been empty and had new swarms move into it many times over the years.


----------



## aunt betty

TF bees. Those are the ones with the TF licence plates. Right?
Until I see some registered TF bees with names and registration numbers I'm going to assume it's a myth like unicorns, 100% fuel efficient engines, and fairies. 

The philosophy of treatment free beekeeping is some very deep "stuff".


----------



## Eikel

> 3. Treat and breed. I keep treating as necessary, and begin slowly selecting for the traits I am seeking.


 Personally I'd go with option 3. Try to remain TF/chemical free, add at least a couple of hygienic queens each year, split hives with favorable traits, catch swarms, rotating comb out, etc, etc. Push the TF/Chemical free envelope, closely monitor and not be afraid to use a treatment if conditions dictate, i.e. don't throw the baby out with the bath water.


----------



## Bkwoodsbees

That all sounds good and makes you feel as if you are really somehow helping your bees. In reality you could be giving them a death sentence. With all due respect to M Bush beekeeping is region and area specific. Is securing a nice honey crop and having healthy bees not good enough? Will you be able to handle a large loss? Will the guilt make you stop keeping bees? I can tell you M Bush no treatment plan that works well for him did not work well for me. My hives (only 4 at the time) were experiencing slow death. If I would have lost them it would have been over for me. I realized my bees in my area need to be cared for just as other animals ...dogs, chickens, fish and so on. They are your bees for you to do with as you want but be prepared. I don't propose hard treatments and only treat as necessary.


----------



## waynesgarden

aunt betty said:


> TF bees. Those are the ones with the TF licence plates. Right?
> Until I see some registered TF bees with names and registration numbers I'm going to assume it's a myth like unicorns, 100% fuel efficient engines, and fairies.
> 
> The philosophy of treatment free beekeeping is some very deep "stuff".


Assume whatever you wish, Aunt Betty. Not sure why you're hanging out in the Treatment-Free Beekeeping Forum. Perhaps just for the opportunity to make snarky comments? 

Just sayin.

Wayne


----------



## biggraham610

Joe Hillmann said:


> You may be better off starting by buying queens from someone or better yet several different people who is/are already breeding for mite resistance. That way you get several lines of genetics of bees that are already resistant to mites.
> 
> /


This is my approach. G


----------



## Bkwoodsbees

Waynesgarden...u think aunt Betty and myself just happened to trip over this in the recent post section...not bashing or picking fights just saying as we see it . We all see things in a different light and not purposely trying to offend anyone..just saying


----------



## squarepeg

jwcarlson said:


> but until you understand beekeeping a little bit better... you can't read between the lines so well. Relentless splitting, selling off lots of nucs (meaning lots of mites), etc.


perhaps when you understand beekeeping a little bit better you'll come to know that relentless splitting and selling off a lot nucs is not what makes keeping bees off treatments possible.

i tried to look back in your posting history to see if i could determine when you started with bees, but the history only holds 500 posts and you've made that many in just the past month and a half.

if your join date coincides with when you got started then this would be your second year. (my sincere apology if i assume incorrectly) it seems like i remember you being especially hard on beestudent for rendering advice and espousing opinions that were above and beyond his experience. i noticed in another thread today that your were challenged about some advice you were giving about how to handle a late season infestation.

it turns out that i strongly agree with your point about the need for us to be responsible 'bee-neighbors'. it's the one point that i feel doesn't get enough press by those advocating the tf approach. on the other hand treatments aren't always effective and even treaters can be bad 'bee-neighbors'. here's a good thread that dates back before your join date in which a lot of good posts from folks on either side of the issue were made:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ent-free-beekeeping-the-risks&highlight=risks

so your hives got into trouble in their second year and now you know all you need to know about keeping bees off treatments enough to tell phoebee how to go about it? just sayin.


----------



## waynesgarden

What Aunt Betty assumes ("it's a myth like unicorns, 100% fuel efficient engines, and fairies,) is the same as I feel about some other beliefs prevalent in our culture. The difference is that I don't go into services or meetings, etc. and tell them they are standing deep in "stuff." When I do find myself in situations where the beliefs and the experiences of others differ from my own are being discussed (assuming it's an appropriate venue for such discussions,) I try to keep my mind open and my mouth shut. 

I guess it's just a matter of respect.

"This forum is for those who wish to discuss Treatment-Free Beekeeping, not for them to be required to defend it. There is no need to discuss commercial or other methods of beekeeping. There are multiple forums to address any and all subjects."

In my humble opinion the quote above, from the few simple "rules" for this particular forum, should be clear enough for anyone to understand. Those who practice treatment free beekeeping (and those like me that aspire to it,) should be able to discuss the subject here without being "required to defend it" from Aunt Betty's insults.

Wayne


----------



## clyderoad

WOW!

is keeping posts "on topic" a requirement too?


----------



## beepro

I am on option #3 now.
In my first year of no treatment, my hives got infested with the foul broods from the mite infestation.
It is harder to cope with during the Spring expansion mode. I have to intervene to treat them in order to have
some bees left for me.
In my 2nd year of no treatment, the mite foul brood developed in late summer. It only set back the hives a bit so I have
to OAV treat them. So far so good!
Now I gradually incorporate the vsh genetics into my apiary. So should see some improvement when the Spring
grafting season comes again. 
It is a never ending cycle until you find some resistant genetics to expand again. In order to minimize the
foul brood syndrome or the mite drifting, it is better if you can divide your 20 hives into 2-3 groups in separate apiary. This will
minimize the spread of the foul brood disease should anything happens to them. Still learning and growing every year on the
route of no treatment, eventually.


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

I expected I would receive a good number of responses on this thread, but not so many as this. My thanks to all of you who have taken the time to respond with counsel, observations, and caution. There is a lot I want to respond to, and I will likely have to make a number of replies to do so. Apologies; it happens that my best time for checking into this forum is when the better part of its members are all in bed.

Before anything, some general responses. Several of this thread's corrispondents (Phoebee, Joe Hillmann) gave the excellent advice of speaking with treatment free beekeepers in my area, and obtaining queens from them. I am afraid that, if such a beast as a treatment free beekeeper exists here, I have yet to meet one. I must believe there are such in Sardegna, but they must be an exceptionally retiring lot, and for the moment I have no access to such resources. I have joined the single beekeeper's association in my part of the island, but they meet only rarely (perhaps three times a year), and the next meeting is not for some two months.

Several of you (jwcarlson, Bkwoodsbees) have also rightly cautioned me on my lack of experience. Your words are well taken. I have been at this a very short time, but long enough to see examples of the kind of potentially disastrous world-saving zealotry that it is very easy to prey to as a starting beekeeper. I can assure the forum that I expect no short cuts in this work, I have no rosy vision of a bright future in which all of my Varroa-proof bees live long and prosperously without the least trace of disease, merely because I have decided no longer to treat them. I know that beekeeping even _with _treatment is a battle in the present state of things. I am as much a starter as I may be, but I take your words very seriously, and I will strive to insure that my ignorance does not become my naivette.

John


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

BernhardHeuvel said:


> You best go for 3) as it doesn't produce unnecessary losses. Cold turkey means 100 % losses every third/fourth year, no honey, lot of money into the sink. Orientate at the Kefuss approach: http://www.immenfreunde.de/SBT.pdf
> 
> PS: Forget about regressing bees, it is waste of money and time. You can get the same results without this small cell stuff.


Thank you for the link, Bernhard. I have given it only a glance, and it looks intriguing. I'll be looking into it.

So far as my interest in natural cell goes, I am not relying on it to defeat Varroa. I have other reasons for employing natural cell, and even were it proved beyond a doubt that natural cell were of absolutely no aid in the battle against Varroa, I think I should still wish to employ it. But to your point - I am not counting on it becoming my cure-all.

John


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

aunt betty said:


> Just quit treating and try to keep your bees alive. Breed the survivors. Decide what you're managing for, honey or bees. My philosophy is to raise lots of bees and the honey will follow.


Aunt Betty, that sounds not far off from my own thoughts. How long have you been working under this philosophy, and how has it gone thus far?

John


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

bevy's honeybees said:


> What are your winters like? I went cold turkey in my second year and my average losses are about 2-4hives per year. Our tough time here is summer, not winter.


Our winters are mild - I should suppose something like your own, judging from your location. Our summers are also fairly mild, insofar as there is only a mild break in the flow around August. All in all I find myself in a favorable clime for honeybees, by any standards.

If I understand your chronology, you've been off treatments for four years - is that correct? What brought you to treatment free beekeeping? It sounds as if you've had some success with it? Was your second winter of treatment free as difficult as jwcarlson's?

John


----------



## MartinW

I recommend you check out Dee Lusby: http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/ed-dee-lusby/. Dee has a yahoo group you can subscribe to and search. While her approach is not for everyone, you may gain access to lots of like-minded Beekeepers in your area who have already made the transition you are considering. She was one of the early innovators in small cell and treatment free and has many followers. Good luck.


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

Phoebee said:


> What is the scale of your operation? Most of us small-time backyard beekeepers have a snowball's chance in heck of breeding TF bees from scratch. However, our state bee inspector has told our club that he wishes the large commercial guys would set aside about 25% of their hives and go TF. The results would initially be horrid (see jwcarlson), but he is confident that selection from survivors will eventually work, as it has with other bee diseases.


Phoebee, I have twenty hives. That likely puts me into the upper limit of the "small-time backyard" category, no? Your point (and jwcarlson's) is well taken, that numbers and variety are essential for quality breeding. I will be expanding next year, heaven permit it, and am at present trying to determine a strategy for balancing this expansion with my desire to become treatment free. Here's the rub, of course, for the very reason that you point out: to be stringnet, the bees that need treatment must die, and (for whatever reason) it is difficult to make bees out of dead bees.

As far as your other point - I have intention next spring of scouring the countryside for feral bees (or just any old swarm or cut-out), and of course much rides on my success or failure with that. Much of bree breeding seems to bear an unpleasant similarity to gambling.

John


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

jwcarlson said:


> Part of the trouble for people running 2-20 hives thinking they'll be treatment free is the affect on others in their area when their experiment goes south as it pretty much has to for the whole theory to work.
> 
> You're not breeding some super bee with four hives in your yard... there is some complex here that's a bit dangerous for new people. Is TF possible? Absolutely... but until you understand beekeeping a little bit better... you can't read between the lines so well. Relentless splitting, selling off lots of nucs (meaning lots of mites), etc.


jwcarlson, the effect on others in my area is an important point that I had not previously considered. Thank you for bringing it to my awareness. My property, where I presently have my bees, is in a fairly isolated location. I know of no other beehives within a five kilometer radius, at least. What would you consider a good buffer? As noted in my introduction, I have access to yet more remote properties, where my (no doubt bumbling) experimentation might present even less danger to my neighbors.

Your other point is also well taken. As I wrote to Phoebee, I recognize that twenty hives is inadequate to the task I have presented myself, and I, an amateur, have no illusions about being able to do what countless first-rate beekeepers are struggling and often failing to do. I am looking to go about this in the most sensible and productive way possible, considering my resources and my situation.

You wrote that, in the event I go cold turkey, I should expect massive loss in my second winter. I don't know why, but I have had the instinct that the second winter would be the hardest for treatment free beekeeping. I am still in what JWChestnut in a different thread nicely called the "halcyon relief" phase caused by the brood break inherent to new nucleus colonies. May I take it that your own experience involved second-year devastation? Might I ask, what did such entail in terms of number losses in your own case?

John


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

crofter said:


> Is your breeding program buying new bees like buying lottery tickets with the feeling of assurance that "eventually You must win"?


Crofter, this is decidely _not _my strategy. I have nothing against those who buy nucs to bolster their numbers or to replace hives that have failed; but I have made a decision in my own case that I will not purchase any more bees than I have already done. I have put it this way to myself - and again, this is _purely_ a personal resolution, and should not be taken as my judgement on any beekeeper's practices - that if I cannot produce plenty from my present twenty hives, together with whatever bees I can capture, then I have no place in this work. I have but skimmed the surface of queen rearing this year - the very surface - but next year will throw myself into it with whatever tenacity I can muster. I am hoping that my determination is a faster runner than my ignorance.



crofter said:


> I hope you have more time, more patience and deeper pockets than I do.


I have a great deal of time. Patience is the sort of thing that one can only adequately measure by putting it into practice. My pockets are shallow indeed. It's likely the mix of the three things that will decide the end result. What do you say - are these betting odds?

John


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

enjambres said:


> I am very skeptical of the notion of "survivor bees".
> 
> ...
> 
> With the peripatetic nature of modern beekeeping I think the idea that survivor bees will have somehow spontaneously evolved a strong-enough, heritable-enough, reliable resistance/ tolerance/ behavioral modification to mites is very, very, unlikely. At best, localized bees might, if isolated enough, establish some kind of survivable equilibrium with the extant varroa mites. But directly that new bees with even slightly different strains of varroa showed up, all bets are off. And beekeepers move bees (and their mites) at the drop of a hat. In some ways the current fad for keeping bees in order "to save the bees", may be making things even worse as it brings (repeatedly in the case of TF enthusiasts, with their small-scale Bond experiments) novel bees into even more locations. And each time a new genetic strain of varroa is delivered, free of charge, with that package or nuc.
> 
> Enj.


Enjambres, thank you for these observations. They bear careful consideration. It does indeed cast doubt on the notion that feral colonies represent as such resistent strains. At the same time, it does not prove that feral colonies are never resistent. More and more I am coming to think that it is necessary in beekeeping to temper one's (after all very useful) enthusiasm, with cold caution, so much depends on variables that cannot be controlled and cannot be predicted.

Your thoughts on peripatetic versus localized bees has given me much to ponder... My thanks...

John


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

beepro said:


> In order to minimize the
> foul brood syndrome or the mite drifting, it is better if you can divide your 20 hives into 2-3 groups in separate apiary. This will
> minimize the spread of the foul brood disease should anything happens to them. Still learning and growing every year on the
> route of no treatment, eventually.


Beepro, this is excellent advice, and I will follow it. Thanks as well for the synopsis of your experience; it is good to hear, even very briefly, what others have confronted, and how they have adapted to such problems as arise.

Two questions. First, what is the problem precisely during the spring expansion mode? Then, may I ask (ever trying to pare down the great mass of my ignorance), what is "vhs genetics"?

Thanks again,
John


----------



## AHudd

enjambres said:


> And each time a new genetic strain of varroa is delivered, free of charge, with that package or nuc.
> 
> Enj.


This sounds to me like you are saying Varroa are capable of evolving at such an accelerated rate that the bees can not hope to match. If so, I wander what is causing this?

Alex


----------



## Oldtimer

My 2 cents is you should realise that applying American methods or writings to a different country may not work as proscribed, most TF beekeepers will well you it's about location and local bees.

The best thing you could do is find one or more treatment free beekeepers in Italy, preferably as close to you as possible. If you can, use the same bees as them, and do what they do.

If you can find no TF beekeepers in Italy, there may be a reason for that and if so, be conservative in your methods to convert to treatment free, ensure you do not lose all your bees.

Like I did when I applied American teachings to New Zealand, but forgot a few important things like type of bee, etc..

Well actually I was aware, but nobody else thought it mattered so I boxed on.

Don't get confused between organic and treatment free. If the bees have to be treated organically, they have to be treated, they are not treatment free and should not be seen as foundation stock for a treatment free operation.


----------



## squarepeg

Phoebee said:


> You might even stumble on to feral bees...


since there are no others in your location already demonstrating success with keeping bees off treatments your endeavor becomes a bit more challenging. in my opinion there are a lot of unknowns when it comes explaining the sharply contrasting success/failure experiences that are being reported with tf beekeeping. there seem to be a lot of variables at play and we've yet to get it all figured out.

if faced with a similar challenge i would consider learning how to locate and observe bees that are surviving in the wild. if you can establish that there are feral colonies making it through mulitple seasons than i think it's safe to assume that the environment there is supportive and that keeping bees off treatments is possible. 

once located these 'feral survivors' can be collected either directly or by swarms caught in empty baited hives. if they are allowed to build natural comb and if artificial feeds are avoided one would expect them to do as well as their unmanaged counterparts. with a little more good fortune they may even end up easy to work with and good honey producers.

the other important aspect about having a surviving feral population in the area is that they will be contributing drones when mating time comes for your next generations of queens. for that reason it is desirable to locate your apiaries near places where the drone contribution is more weighted with feral bees vs. near large bee operations that are sustained with treatments.


----------



## bevy's honeybees

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> Our winters are mild - I should suppose something like your own, judging from your location. Our summers are also fairly mild, insofar as there is only a mild break in the flow around August. All in all I find myself in a favorable clime for honeybees, by any standards.
> 
> If I understand your chronology, you've been off treatments for four years - is that correct? What brought you to treatment free beekeeping? It sounds as if you've had some success with it? Was your second winter of treatment free as difficult as jwcarlson's?
> 
> John


In my 3rd year I lost 4 hives out of 20, and not all at one time. A couple in spring, one mid summer, one in fall. I consider this success. And, coincidental or not, all 4 of my original hives purchased by (3) commercial guy (1) treatment hobbyist were all gone by the end of year 3. The hobbyist hive lasting the longest and had been very strong until it crashed. That one I do believe was mites due to the swiftness of the crash and the pile of dead bees in the hive. So this year 2 hives out of 44, the percentage of loss is much better than my first couple of years. Keep in mind, no winter here as in your area. 

I went treatment free after reading and watching you tube of Michael Bush primarily, and some others who have done it sucessfuliy. I attribute much of my success other than chemical free to no artificial feed but rather, leave plenty of honey and if they need more, pull from freezer or a hive with strong stores, or combine depleted colony to strong as I see that as a weak hive. I know of a newer commercial beek in the immediate area of one of my yards that this spring, all at one time lost something like 150 hives out of 400 (not sure of his total number of hives). I don't artificial feed, no foundation. I have had much more success with local queens than ones I buy from out of state (I stopped buying beginning 2014). I have hives that I got in spring of my second year that came from cut outs and a swarm that I forced out of the wall of my son's garage that had moved in a few days before I got to it. Many of my original hives are still going strong. Treatment free fit my lifestyle to begin with so it was not a difficult decision at all. I remember being quite thrilled when I first heard about it at a beekeepers meeting in my first year and then began researching. They were preaching to the choir in my case.


----------



## marshmasterpat

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> Then, may I ask (ever trying to pare down the great mass of my ignorance), what is "vhs genetics"?
> Thanks again,John


VHS - It stands Varroa hygenic sensitivity. Apparently some of the bees (maybe all of them) carry a tract that gives the ability to detect varroa mites inside of capped comb. They then chew the capping open and haul out the pupae with the mites on it and dump outside of the hive. Also some bees have a tendency to groom mites off. Remember that the honeybee and mites have existed for many thousands of years TOGETHER in parts of the world. So they can effectively deal with them and have. 

So multiple people breed bees for maximizing these traits so the bees remove varroa in various ways. Look up VHS bees. You can purchase them here in the states. So the queen passes these traits to most of the bees in the colony and they self clean the colony of varroa. I will be adding some of these genetics to my apiary next spring. 

I don't know of any proof exists other than opinions that varroa are evolving faster than bees. Just that most strains of bees are not capable of coexisting with them as they didn't have to deal with it. And I have found nothing indicating that one strain of varroa acts different than another. They might have different pathogens/diseases in different strains. Sort of like mosquitos, they all attack the same way by sucking blood. But different species harbor different diseases, but all species don't carry or pass each type of the diseases spread by mosquitos. But the method that varroa impacts bees is always the same. 

I don't know much, and have little experience. But just finished my 2nd summer and going into my 3rd winter. Yep started the wrong time (fall) stumbled through it. Still treatment free so far, and lost only 1 hive (my very first one) and it was due to mites. (I don't count nucs I lost due to swarming and the new queen failed to start laying, lost 5 of those). The second year deaths have not appeared yet and those two year old hives are healthy right now. I dare someone to pop a top without smoke and no gloves LOL. You will see healthy in your face. No commercial bee keeper and very few bee keepers in my immediate 2 mile radius, but dang we got feral bees in this area. Destroyed three colonies at my house before I decide to keep some. I put feed out in the open and got bees coming from all directions. I know of a few areas where for certain there are no human kept colonies within 3 miles more like about 7 miles, yet there are plenty of feral colonies and have been since before 1997. So somehow some bees are making it treatment free in this part of TX over at least 15 years.


----------



## Michael Bush

>1. The "cold-turkey" approach. No treatments from the start, intensive splitting to manage number losses, culling and breeding to encourage desired resistence.
>2. Half-and-half. I stop treating half of my hives, and treat the other half as a failsafe, and to bulk up my producing colonies.
>3. Treat and breed. I keep treating as necessary, and begin slowly selecting for the traits I am seeking.

It sounds to me like you are not convinced and want to hedge your bets. If you have two good beeyards, why not do one treatment free and the other treated? That way you can hedge and see if it works for you. I tried the "only treat if they need it" and lost all the bees even when treating. So then I did cold turkey. I also went to small cell. I have not looked back.


----------



## beepro

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> Beepro, this is excellent advice, and I will follow it. Thanks as well for the synopsis of your experience; it is good to hear, even very briefly, what others have confronted, and how they have adapted to such problems as arise.
> 
> Two questions. First, what is the problem precisely during the spring expansion mode? Then, may I ask (ever trying to pare down the great mass of my ignorance), what is "vhs genetics"?
> 
> Thanks again,
> John


On my first year of no treatment the mites will run wild inside the hive. In the winter time, with or without the bees clustering, the mites will continue to feed and grow from the
bees. The clustered bees will experience the most severe damage because they cannot groom themselves during that time until they are free from the cluster again.
Without the mites taken down by the treatment, the Spring expansion is extremely slow because of the mites causing what I called the "mite foul brood" syndrome inside the
hive. The larvae/broods death is much like the EFB disease all caused by the free running mites during the winter months. Many snow bound country who took the NT option will not have many survivor colonies come Spring time again. That is why my Spring expansion is so slow.

On VSH genetics, you can read it up here starting on #8 post about the Glenn vsh queens. Glenn is no longer in business but some queen operation and a few individuals got
his breeder queens and the whole operation transferred over.
Here is the link: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?262775-Varroa-tolerant-queen-breeders-for-2012
Since then there are many vsh breeders and production queens available on the net that you can buy. I use the local survivors and the vsh genetics
in my apiary now. Going to add some mite mauling/biting genetics too. My long term goal is still to be as tf as possible without adding anything that does
not belong to inside the hive.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> I would like some advice. I own twenty hives that I have _begun _to regress into natural cell, and my end goal is to become treatment free. I can see three distinct possibilities for attaining this goal:
> 
> 1. The "cold-turkey" approach. No treatments from the start, intensive splitting to manage number losses, culling and breeding to encourage desired resistence.
> 2. Half-and-half. I stop treating half of my hives, and treat the other half as a failsafe, and to bulk up my producing colonies.
> 3. Treat and breed. I keep treating _as necessary, _and begin slowly selecting for the traits I am seeking.


I would add a fourth way: diminishing treatments little by little. That's how I did it. But which way is the best, that is impossible to say. 

Treating every year less and less gives your bees time to adjust, and for you to learn of the process and tf beekeeping. 

The third way, Treating and Breeding, that is making decisions which ones are the best candidates to be survivors. To make these decisions you need to make measurements (number of mites, growth rate of varroa etc.) If you decide to do it this way, that is equivalent that you think that your own wisdom is greater than Nature and our own measurements are accurate. It is very hard if not impossible to make accurate measurements with a low number of hives when there are so many variables like in the life of free living, free mating bees in variable weather and flow situations.


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

AHudd said:


> This sounds to me like you are saying Varroa are capable of evolving at such an accelerated rate that the bees can not hope to match. If so, I wander what is causing this?


I think it needless to say that I am in no position to provide anything more than wild conjecture here. Considering the matter merely from the naive perspective of one who has _just _begun to study the matter, it seems to me apparent that the evolutionary potential of the mite, which reproduces, if I am not mistaken, on a ten day cycle, is likely to be much higher than that of the honeybee, which reproduces even in artificial conditions only several times a year.

Any thoughts on this from those of you who have solid grounding?

John


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

Oldtimer said:


> If you can find no TF beekeepers in Italy, there may be a reason for that and if so, be conservative in your methods to convert to treatment free, ensure you do not lose all your bees.


It is sound advice, Oldtimer; and I cannot claim to have seen enough of the operations of the beekeepers here to say whether there is in fact a good reason or no. I can say that the few times I have mentioned treatment free beekeeping to the few beekeepers I know, the response has been invariably a scoff, and a comment to the effect that such a thing does not exist. From what I have seen, in other words, the entire notion of treatment free beekeeping is still a novelty amongst the small segment of beekeepers in my acquaintance.



Oldtimer said:


> Don't get confused between organic and treatment free. If the bees have to be treated organically, they have to be treated, they are not treatment free and should not be seen as foundation stock for a treatment free operation.


This is an important distinction. I will keep it in mind. I am interested in treatment free, in the clear sense that you delineate.

John


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

squarepeg said:


> since there are no others in your location already demonstrating success with keeping bees off treatments your endeavor becomes a bit more challenging. in my opinion there are a lot of unknowns when it comes explaining the sharply contrasting success/failure experiences that are being reported with tf beekeeping. there seem to be a lot of variables at play and we've yet to get it all figured out.


Yes, this is indeed the difficulty. It is likely that I'll have to gamble a bit and see how matters turn out. My entire history with bees so far, however, has been a gamble, so...



squarepeg said:


> if faced with a similar challenge i would consider learning how to locate and observe bees that are surviving in the wild. if you can establish that there are feral colonies making it through mulitple seasons than i think it's safe to assume that the environment there is supportive and that keeping bees off treatments is possible.


This, I agree, is key. I learned just last evening that the owner of a property where I have been keeping my bees to catch the eucalyptus flow has a feral hive living in the trunk of an old dead tree on his land. It has been there for eight years - he can attest to its continual presence for the duration of that time. I consider this a highly promising place to start, and next spring I'm going to see if I can't catch a swarm off of that colony, or perhaps even the colony itself. (I haven't seen this tree, and I'll have to see how the situation lies.)



squarepeg said:


> the other important aspect about having a surviving feral population in the area is that they will be contributing drones when mating time comes for your next generations of queens. for that reason it is desirable to locate your apiaries near places where the drone contribution is more weighted with feral bees vs. near large bee operations that are sustained with treatments.


Again, an excellent point. I'll keep this well in mind in my selection of a breeding location.

John


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

bevy's honeybees said:


> Treatment free fit my lifestyle to begin with so it was not a difficult decision at all. I remember being quite thrilled when I first heard about it at a beekeepers meeting in my first year and then began researching. They were preaching to the choir in my case.


Compliments on your losses, Bevy, or rather lack thereof. And thank you for relating a bit of your story. It is interesting to hear the difference between the original hives you bought and the later hives you acquired - I take it? - from swarms and cut outs. This seems to be a fairly common experience amongst many treatment free beekeepers. And it is good as well to hear of someone who is having some success with the treatment free road.

John


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

marshmasterpat said:


> VHS - It stands Varroa hygenic sensitivity. Apparently some of the bees (maybe all of them) carry a tract that gives the ability to detect varroa mites inside of capped comb. They then chew the capping open and haul out the pupae with the mites on it and dump outside of the hive. Also some bees have a tendency to groom mites off. Remember that the honeybee and mites have existed for many thousands of years TOGETHER in parts of the world. So they can effectively deal with them and have.


Thank you, that is a very clear explanation.



marshmasterpat said:


> I don't know much, and have little experience. But just finished my 2nd summer and going into my 3rd winter. Yep started the wrong time (fall) stumbled through it. Still treatment free so far, and lost only 1 hive (my very first one) and it was due to mites. ... The second year deaths have not appeared yet and those two year old hives are healthy right now. I dare someone to pop a top without smoke and no gloves LOL. You will see healthy in your face. No commercial bee keeper and very few bee keepers in my immediate 2 mile radius, but dang we got feral bees in this area. Destroyed three colonies at my house before I decide to keep some. I put feed out in the open and got bees coming from all directions. I know of a few areas where for certain there are no human kept colonies within 3 miles more like about 7 miles, yet there are plenty of feral colonies and have been since before 1997. So somehow some bees are making it treatment free in this part of TX over at least 15 years.


Marshmasterpat, where did you get your bees? Are they feral specimens from your area, or did you purchase them? Your signature says that you haven't decided your treatment style yet - but I am right in thinking that you haven't treated your bees yet, correct?

John


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

beepro said:


> On my first year of no treatment the mites will run wild inside the hive. In the winter time, with or without the bees clustering, the mites will continue to feed and grow from the bees. The clustered bees will experience the most severe damage because they cannot groom themselves during that time until they are free from the cluster again. Without the mites taken down by the treatment, the Spring expansion is extremely slow because of the mites causing what I called the "mite foul brood" syndrome inside the
> hive. The larvae/broods death is much like the EFB disease all caused by the free running mites during the winter months. Many snow bound country who took the NT option will not have many survivor colonies come Spring time again. That is why my Spring expansion is so slow.


Thank you for this, Beepro, I was ignorant of the winter damage that Varroa could cause, to say nothing of the spring effects. Thanks also for the link. I'm going to read it this afternoon.



beepro said:


> I use the local survivors and the vsh genetics in my apiary now.


There must be satisfaction in being able to say this. How are things going with your vhs genetics? You said that you are as treatment free as possible; how often do you find you have to treat?

John


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

Juhani Lunden said:


> I would add a fourth way: diminishing treatments little by little. Treating every year less and less gives your bees time to adjust, and for you to learn of the process and tf beekeeping.


A very good point, Juhani. This could also be matched usefully with the time it will take me to regress my bees to natural cell. I'll consider it.



Juhani Lunden said:


> The third way, Treating and Breeding, that is making decisions which ones are the best candidates to be survivors. To make these decisions you need to make measurements (number of mites, growth rate of varroa etc.) If you decide to do it this way, that is equivalent that you think that your own wisdom is greater than Nature and our own measurements are accurate.


It is well put indeed. And far be it for me to compare my wisdom with the grand order of nature. As I said in my original post, I think Michael Bush is right when he says that treating and breeding can do nothing but confuse an already extremely complicated and delicate process.

May I ask, at what point have you arrived in the process you outline? Are you breeding for resistence? How long did you diminish your treatments, before eliminating them altogether (supposing you have)? I'd be very interested to hear a little of your experience.

John


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

Juhani - forgive my haste! I only just noticed the convenient link located _directly in your response, _in direct answer to my last query. (Ask, and you shall receive, no?) I'm looking forward to reading what you've written there.

My question stands nonetheless, if you'd like to share anything that you think would be particularly pertinent, however.

John


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

Michael Bush said:


> It sounds to me like you are not convinced and want to hedge your bets. If you have two good beeyards, why not do one treatment free and the other treated? That way you can hedge and see if it works for you. I tried the "only treat if they need it" and lost all the bees even when treating. So then I did cold turkey. I also went to small cell. I have not looked back.


Mr. Bush, I am convinced that I want to keep my bees treatment free; and for this, I have no intention of hedging any bets. My question concerns the means and not the end. I have, for better or worse, and be it rash recklessness or what have you, thrown myself into this endeavor, and consequently have a good deal riding on it. I know that I will lose bees, and confronting the necessity of that, am tranquil; I should like to avoid disaster, as much as possible. Hence this thread.

Yet I take your point - that treatment may even exacerbate the damage, or lead in and of itself to such distaster. Case in point, my mentor, who treated has treated year in and year out for as long as he can remember, who treated this very spring with Apivar, just four months ago, and who is thrilled with the results, though his hives are weak and unproductive and show telltale signs even now of deformed wing disease and higher than desirable mite levels. I should be sick in such a position as his. And so I find that even going the treatment road is not without risk. It seems indeed that a bit of gambling spirit is in order; though we rectify our odds as much as we may.

Mr. Bush, a question for you in particular - I have begun this summer to regress my bees to natural cell for a good number of reasons I won't enumerate; and partially in hopes of aiding with Varroa. I have some ideas for hastening the regression process in the coming year, but I should think that, speaking of the hives I presently have, it will be a good year to year and a half before I have managed to regress fully to the small cell hive core of which you speak. Until I have attained that mark, can you give me any particular advice in how to proceed? It would be much appreciated.

John


----------



## SeaCucumber

I'm doing number 3.

The goal is to get the hives in the "proper internal ecosystem" (PIE) and "proper genetics" category.

"proper internal ecosystem" PIE hives:
- I consider these to be treatment free.
- To create these, I swap frames between healthy hives. I try to save time by not doing many swaps. Suppose I buy 4 treatment free hives from different places (hives a, b, c, and d). If I swap a frame between hives a and b, wait a bit, and then swap a frame between hives c and b, hive c should have most of the beneficial organisms from hives a and b.
- Although I categorize hives as having a PIE, I'm never certain of it.

Suppose a hive is diseased. I prefer to use a treatment that doesn't remain in the hive for long. Its my 1st real beekeeping year, and I treated 1 out of 5 hives with a sugar dusting. I will treat the diseased hive and kill the queen. When the treatment is gone, I will combine the hive with a good hive. The treated hive will get proper genetics and a PIE.


----------



## beepro

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> How are things going with your vhs genetics? You said that you are as treatment free as possible; how often do you find you have to treat?
> 
> John


My experience with the vsh genetics is a positive one. There were 2 hives in particular that exhibit this traits that I had lost now due to the fact that I was on
a learning curve back then 2 years ago. These 2 hives for some reason carrying the vsh genetics had lower mites almost close to none on a hive inspection compared
to their neighbor hives. Back then I was under the impression that I have to requeen my hives every year. So I didn't know much about the vsh bees and in the requeening
process did not take my graft from those 2 hives so the genetics got lost. Had I keep up with these 2 hives and take daughters queens from then my progress will be better than today.
Now I know what to look for in a survivor queen.
Then I bought more vsh queens to gradually incorporate into my apiary. So far they are still holding with very low mite count but still have some dwv and the mites in there. I can
use my stationary OAV gadget to eliminate all the mites but figured that the mites are here to stay anyways, I on purpose let some mites in there going through the winter for my study purposes. That is why my hives crashed during the last winter year. Many beekeepers who treat with the many form of chemicals available here will have the healthy bees come Spring time again. But they have to keep on treating the bees every year otherwise that hive will be lost due to the mites. With 100-200 hives the cost of these chemicals can be very steep. By the time they realized it they are too big to do anything about it. That is why it is so important to start small and get some feed backs from your local environment first.
How are the vsh drones population or the survivor population locally? How many drones are there in certain time of the year for your queen rearing operation? There are so many more questions about you local environment to enable you to keep bees successfully like going through a yearly dearth for example. When?
With my stationary OAV gadget I only treat when it is necessary when there is a significant dwv and high mite level. The whole purpose is to keep the hives alive from year to year while selecting the survivor queens to graft and sustain your operation. I'm still on option #3 here.
This is a slow and long process but it can be done with the right genetics and traits. Look at the carpernter bees link about the mite biting bees. He on purpose select those traits to make his breeder queens selling at a premium price. Yes, many had done it over here and continue to expand every year. The ones who have not is struggling to do so. The bigger they are the faster they will far. I rather have smaller crashes than one big one that wiped out my entire operation. Some attempted out of 400 hives only 1 survived. Yes he did rebuilt gradually after that.


----------



## Michael Bush

>I have some ideas for hastening the regression process in the coming year, but I should think that, speaking of the hives I presently have, it will be a good year to year and a half before I have managed to regress fully to the small cell hive core of which you speak. Until I have attained that mark, can you give me any particular advice in how to proceed? It would be much appreciated.

It depends on what you have available and how much shipping you're willing to pay. The Mann Lake PF120s (mediums ) or PF100s (deeps) are well accepted and drawn 4.94mm right off the bat. Which is fairly instantaneous. The HSC (Honey Super Cell) is fully drawn plastic 4.9mm and while not well accepted at first, will get used eventually. It sets the bees back about two weeks, as far as getting established (if you put them on nothing but HSC and wait for them to accept it) but once they do you have permenant small cell comb that will be used as normal. I actually bought full drawn 5.0mm (PermaComb), heated it to 200 F (94 C) and dipped it in beeswax an shook off the excess. I got small cell and instant acceptance, but it was a messy and arduous undertaking. All three of these were almost instant regression. Everything else tends to take longer. Small cell wax foundation takes a couple of turnovers of comb typically. Sometimes as few as one and sometimes as many as four depending on the inclinations of the bees.


----------



## Phoebee

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> Phoebee, I have twenty hives. That likely puts me into the upper limit of the "small-time backyard" category, no?
> 
> As far as your other point - I have intention next spring of scouring the countryside for feral bees (or just any old swarm or cut-out), and of course much rides on my success or failure with that. Much of breeding seems to bear an unpleasant similarity to gambling.
> 
> John


Yes, that's more hives than the average backyard, but I think too small to support a full time business. I think it is too small to expect to breed TF bees on your own, but not too small to raise feral bees if you find any that have the desired TF traits. All the negative comments above are valid. True enough, many feral colonies are not all that old and may just occupy abandoned hives, but it is not impossible for bees to select naturally for varroa tolerance, and in fact this must have happened in the past with some races of bees. The odds of finding varroa-resistant bees in the wild are astronomically higher than finding them in apiaries that treat heavily.

It is like gambling, but I think more like gambling in the American "wild west" than in a European casino. That's because losing the gamble is fatal for the bees, and losing is far more likely than winning on any individual "hand" of cards.


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

Beepro, it sounds like you have a fine operation going. What do you consider significant dwv and high mite level? Or put otherwise - when do you deem it necessary to treat?



beepro said:


> By the time they realized it they are too big to do anything about it. That is why it is so important to start small and get some feed backs from your local environment first. How are the vsh drones population or the survivor population locally? How many drones are there in certain time of the year for your queen rearing operation? There are so many more questions about you local environment to enable you to keep bees successfully like going through a yearly dearth for example. When?


These are very good questions, and I will mark them well in my efforts.



beepro said:


> The bigger they are the faster they will far. I rather have smaller crashes than one big one that wiped out my entire operation.


A valid point; I had not considered the matter from this perspective...

John


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

Phoebee said:


> It is like gambling, but I think more like gambling in the American "wild west" than in a European casino. That's because losing the gamble is fatal for the bees, and losing is far more likely than winning on any individual "hand" of cards.


I was born and raised in the wild west, and by my roots, I'm not sure I know another sense of the word gambling. I suppose then that the best bet here is to get one's hands on as many different bee strains as possible and run them through a trial by fire. That would be the idea, would it not?

John


----------



## crofter

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> I was born and raised in the wild west, and by my roots, I'm not sure I know another sense of the word gambling. I suppose then that the best bet here is to get one's hands on as many different bee strains as possible and run them through a trial by fire. That would be the idea, would it not?
> 
> John


That is a good general direction but it sounds a bit like needing deep pockets. I think it would return better odds if you take advantage of some of the winnowing out that others have done. Despite what some people say, achieving repeatable and transferable treatment free status is not easy or there would be multi millionaires with patents on the process.

"Profit from others mistakes; we dont live long enough to make them all ourselves".


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

SeaCucumber said:


> To create these, I swap frames between healthy hives. I try to save time by not doing many swaps. Suppose I buy 4 treatment free hives from different places (hives a, b, c, and d). If I swap a frame between hives a and b, wait a bit, and then swap a frame between hives c and b, hive c should have most of the beneficial organisms from hives a and b.


SeaCucumber, this is fascinating... I take it from your post you haven't been at it very long, but do you think you've had any positive results so far? It must be difficult to quantify, of course - but any observations, or even just a general sense of your hives?

John


----------



## Phoebee

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> I was born and raised in the wild west, and by my roots, I'm not sure I know another sense of the word gambling. I suppose then that the best bet here is to get one's hands on as many different bee strains as possible and run them through a trial by fire. That would be the idea, would it not?
> 
> John


As Crofter says, that's a tall order for a back yard, even one with 20 hives. But do it with what you can handle, and a risk level you can accept. Perhaps have a few treated hives in a production apiary and the experiment in another yard. 

My wife and I were given one pretty good queen who so far seems to keep mite levels in check, but we treated her last year as a precaution because we did not understand the mite situation in that hive. This year she and two daughters seem healthy and have the mites at very low levels, but this may be due to the brood breaks involved in breeding the daughters, and moving the old queen to a nuc. Spring will tell if not treating them was wise, but even then we won't know if the bees did it themselves, or the manipulations knocked the mites down, or if the mites themselves are a less virulent strain. 

Two others of unknown tolerance we treated, one of which (a different VSH line) apparently had all of about 36 mites in the hive. The other had a much higher population and I'm glad I treated, but may have had some Russian genetics, and Russians supposedly tolerate mites better than most Italians.

We hope we have some bees left in the spring.

Developing resistant bees is the goal, but one thing that could be happening is developing less deadly mites. The mites reproduce far more frequently than queen bees, so they are expected to evolve faster. Mites that don't kill their hosts would have better survival, especially in a small, isolated apiary. It is possible that is what some isolated experiments are showing ... the TF populations could be possible because the untreated hives die if mites carrying diseases are present, and take the mites with them.

This should not be discounted. Europe was devastated by waves of bubonic plague, but for some reason it never made it to the Americas until 1906. Possibly it was just so deadly that the rats carrying it died on the long voyage. But when it hit the West Coast in 1900-06, it really did not kill that many people, certainly not the 25% levels seen in previous pandemics. The plague is still here, living wild in rodents, and a couple of cases were reported in the US this year, promptly contained and treated. Curiously, I've seen no evidence that plague even killed American Indians, who presumably would have had little resistance to it. There are "survivor genes" in European populations that convey protection (one notably also protects against HIV), but they are not prevalent enough to explain the low virulence. What evidently happened is that _Yersinia pestis_ evolved to a less virulent disease that survives better because its host is more likely to live.

But as long as the bees can live with it, I don't care if the bees are getting tougher or the mites are becoming more benign. This might explain why TF bees moved from their original apiary don't do so well, though.


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

crofter said:


> That is a good general direction but it sounds a bit like needing deep pockets. I think it would return better odds if you take advantage of some of the winnowing out that others have done. Despite what some people say, achieving repeatable and transferable treatment free status is not easy or there would be multi millionaires with patents on the process.


Indeed, you must be right on that. The fact that so much debate and discussion that continues to circulate around the issue of breeding demonstrates already the lack of _easy _solutions, not to speak of anyone who has been entirely successful and has utterly solved the conundrum of breeding Varroa resistent bees. And I, with my total lack of experience and my as-of-yet minimal knowledge of what the devil it is I'm doing, certainly can't hope to surpass what those with vastly greater resources and experience are often struggling to do, and only with great difficulty.

I will continue looking for someone in Sardinia who has been working at treatment free beekeeping. It seems impossible that there is not such a one, somewhere on this island. In the meantime, however, I must do what I _can,_ inadequate though that might prove to be.

John


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

Phoebee, that is very interesting about the "less deadly mite" scenario... Thank you for bringing that up. It will give me something to think on.

John


----------



## JWChesnut

Phoebee said:


> Mites that don't kill their hosts would have better survival, especially in a small, isolated apiary. It is possible that is what some isolated experiments are showing ... the TF populations could be possible because the untreated hives die if mites carrying diseases are present, and take the mites with them


This and similar formulations are repeated ad nauseum, as if they must be self-evidentially true. All the evidence points otherwise. When the virulent Korean and (less impactful) Japanese races of mites were placed in competition in Brazil -- the fecund Korean strain replaced the Japanese one. The replacement of virulent strains of DWV has been studied in Hawaii and Scotland.

The race for survival in mites is one of facility for colonization. Robbing-out dead hives is a primary mode of colonization. Fecund and virulent mites cause dead-outs with greater facility than peacefully coexisting mites. The deadly ones win the race to find another host colony. 

The mites have already regulated their virulence (where 60 to 80% of untreated hives die the 2nd year). The 2nd year hives swarm before being overwhelmed, creating a seed bed for the escaping mites to infect the next generation. 

There is no adaptive advantage for the mite to not kill its host in a conflagration at the end of the 2nd season. The strong hives rob (and collect mites) before winter. What better place for a wise mite to overwinter than the strongest host it can secure. It rests easy in the knowledge that its great-granddaughters will repeat the colonization cycle the following October.


----------



## Phoebee

There is an advantage to not killing your host in a small, isolated apiary (if you check back, that's what I specify). Unlike small hive beetles, mites can't fly and are not prolific walkers. 

In a crowded apiary, there is enough rubbing of elbows between bees from adjacent hives that transfer of mites is almost certain. With hives just inches apart on a hive stand, it is not impossible for a mite dropped from one hive to scurry over to a neighbor. And in any shared forage areas, transfer can probably take place on forage sources. Further, in a large apiary, the beekeeper is probably one subborn cuss, and keeps doing whatever is necessary to breed or bring in more bees (i.e. incentive for the varroa to be gluttons).

It has been mentioned that supposedly TF bees from some apiaries don't fare well if introduced elsewhere. If the bee genetics were really superior, this should not matter. If the mite virulence is different, it would.

And if big commercial operators, used to dragging their thousands of hives off to the almond groves every spring to swap diseases with bees from all over the country seem to have no luck with TF, well, that would certainly be a good argument to treat, treat, treat. 

An isolated apiary attempting to go TF with mites carrying fatal diseases, but bees incapable of tolerating them, would wind up with dead colonies. Second year? Well, if lucky. And with the dead bees would be equally dead mites. So if this is the mechanism, I'd say local TF success might just be a rather benign batch of varroa. This is not to say they don't spread like wildfire, but that they don't kill the bees. Maybe. 

And then there is selective treatment based on hive examination. If hives are treated based on both mite counts and observations of disease symptoms such as DWV, there is a selective advantage for mites not to carry the diseases and to not increase population above the economic threshold. They could still spread from colony to colony, but keep a lower profile. I would propose that other species of _varroa _besides _destructor_ have come to an accomodation over the eons, and _Apis cerana_ is probably the original host of _destructor_. So nature found a way to deal with this little monster in the past.


----------



## crofter

Is it not the case that both scenarios (virulent, and less virulent) _do_ exist in different locations as successful models though not simultaneously? Is this perhaps what leads to a lot of conflicting observations?


----------



## squarepeg

excellent discussion here. could it be that a lower propensity for robbing is part of what allows some bees better success against the mites? i have had less than a handful of robbing events in my yards and those were quickly abated, but when i have had them it was clear from their markings and flight paths that the robbers were not my bees. 

the italian strain seems to be the industry favorite because of quick build up and good honey production, but italians are also purported to have a high robbing propensity which if true might make them more susceptible to acquiring a late season spike in mite load compared to strains less inclined to rob. 

this might be compounded further if the italians reputed tendency for brooding and eating through their spring stores during a summer dearth leaves them light on stores and desperate to rob in order to get the cupboards full for winter. this in contrast to a strain that has adjusted it's population and stores and is well provisioned at the end of the season, why would they rob if there's no need to die and no where to put the spoils anyway?

not trying to italian bash here, just wondering out loud..


----------



## Phoebee

If I recall correctly, it took researchers a while to even realize that the problems were coming from this previously unidentified mite, _Varroa destructor_. They were identifying it as _Varroa jacobsoni_, which _Apis cerana_ tolerates well, and I think does not cause such serious problems in _mellifera_, either. There are at least three other species as well. If the experts can't tell one from the other, I sure can't and I would not expect even a Master Beekeeper to distinguish them.

But even within the species _destructor_, if every strain of these were identically virulent, and carried the exact same diseases, that would be a freak of nature. There _must_ be variations in any large population not entirely made of clones from a factory with good quality control. Although, the rather incestuous mating behavior of varroa mites does suggest that there is not a lot of opportunity for crossbreeding in a given isolated population. When they were first introduced to the US, they probably were all pretty close to being clones, and genetic variation in any introduced location is almost certainly less than in their home territory.


----------



## JWChesnut

From the current Bee-L, here's a contribution with relevance to the question of "local" hypo-virulence.
Post by Gene Ash
As an example.... you commonly hear folks say that varroa has a preference for drone brood due ti the longer capping time required for drone to mature and emerge. This is of course logical nonsense since varroa does not 'know' that one cells will take a longer or shorter time to mature. What varroa does do (at this time my understanding of the mechanism involved) is it senses the juvenile growth hormone which is much higher in drones than either worker bees or queens. This is also why varroa is much more attractive to old comb (which absorbs JGH) and not so much to new comb. I myself suspect this may answer a lot of question concerning varroa attraction to one hive and not another and to the observation of how specific lines of bees may appear resistant at one location collapse at another location < the obvious overlooked variable here is time.​

Gene Ash currently maintains a Texas Queen Breeding Permit, a Texas Intrastate Bee Moving Permit, and is chief apiarist at the Texas A&M Bee Lab in College Station.


----------



## beepro

"....mites can't fly and are not prolific walkers."

Why are we suddenly talking about the mites here. We are 
suppose to think of ways to not treat the hives while enabling the
bees to still survive and give us some honey.
Surely, the mites cannot fly but they can crawl at 25 mph.
I spent one summer picking and cutting the mites in half with a
small sharp one edged razor blade. Some free running mites I cannot
even catch them. Those 6 or 8 leggers can really crawl from cell to
cell and under the bee's hiding place. I don't like them either but 
they are here to stay for a very long time.

So the relationships between the mites and dwv is a positive correlation.
When one bee generation hatched, I will monitor their dwv on the new hatching and
the number of free running mites on the young bees. If I see 20% infestation per 
frame of bees then that is too high for my comfort. Also, at orientation days when
the young bees started to fly, the ones that dropped onto the ground and crawling around was when I judge my findings of the hive infestation. More than 20 bees are too much for me. If only 5-10 bees that cannot fly then still tolerable by my standard. Still I will treat this hive. If no crawling bee then this is a very good hatch free of the mites, for now.
At 20% infestation level is when I do my stationary oav gadget treatment that I invented with 100% effective mite kill. Because this is an on demand oav gadget I can simply fire it up at anytime through out the year. It is under the hive out of the weather, rains or shine will not affect its operation at all. It is cheap to make and safe to operate.


----------



## Eduardo Gomes

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> I would like some advice. I own twenty hives that I have _begun _to regress into natural cell, and my end goal is to become treatment free. John


John in Italy is not required by law to treat the hives against varroasis? In Portugal the treatment is mandatory and those who do not present evidence of receiving the treatments from their beekeeping associations are fined by the state.

Obviously I am not taking any position either for or against this legislation, but only to present more this data to be taken into account by someone who ponders follow the TF in a EU country where the laws can be an obstacle.


----------



## Little-John

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> I would like some advice. I own twenty hives that I have _begun _to regress into natural cell, and my end goal is to become treatment free. I can see three distinct possibilities for attaining this goal:
> 
> 1. The "cold-turkey" approach. No treatments from the start, intensive splitting to manage number losses, culling and breeding to encourage desired resistence.


I don't know if the following is relevant to the above, but it might be of some interest: 



> A selection experiment was performed on the island Gotland in the Baltic Sea. The so called ‘‘Bond-Project” started in 1999 with 150 infested colonies that were kept without Varroa treatment for up to 10 years. After a dramatic decline within the first 3 years, a small honey bee population became established which has survived without any treatment (Fries et al., 2003, 2006). Colonies headed by queens of this population revealed a clearly reduced growth of the Varroa population compared to European control colonies and confirmed host selection rather than selection of less virulent mites (Fries and Bommarco, 2007; Rosenkranz and Fries, 2005). However, these colonies also had, on average, a somewhat lower brood production, a slightly higher prevalence of brood diseases (which may also reduce the reproductive success of 'brood mites'), the tendency of overwintering with a relatively small number of bees (which may reduce the absolute number of mites present in the spring) and a less gentle behavior (Rosenkranz and Fries, 2005; Weller, 2008). *Natural selection, therefore, may lead to unexpected results concerning the performance of the colony and beekeepers have to realize that their wish list (strong colonies with gentle bees producing high honey yields) may no longer be fulfilled by bees resulting from such selection.*
> 
> 
> Biology and Control of Varroa destructor.
> Rosenkranz, Aumeier, Ziegelmann, Journal of Invertebrate Pathology, 2010




Bernhard made a dismissive comment earlier in this thread regarding 'small cell stuff' - but in truth there is no such size as 'small cell'. 

The OP is quite correct in describing his transition as one towards 'natural cell size'. What currently exists are two sizes of worker cell: natural and large cell - NOT 'standard' and small cell.

To describe 4.9mm(ish) cells as 'small cell' is to give the misleading impression that this size is somehow unusual, or not normal in some way - when in fact it is the widespread use of large cell combs which is totally abnormal. Evolution - over millions of years - has established that the most successful worker cell size for the European honeybee is around 4.9mm. If a cell size of 5.45mm(ish) were to be more advantageous for the bees' long-term survival, then the evolutionary process would have produced that size ... but it didn't.

LJ


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

If a small cell would be evolutionary important in some way or the other, the bees would take much more care to build that size exactly. But they don't. In fact you need to force them to do so.

The written documents describing the natural cell sizes in times before foundation, almost all describe cells larger than 4.9 mm. So _small cell_ is the exact description of those cruelity done to bees when "regressing" them.

Read about the historical measurements in true natural bee comb.
http://www.dheaf.plus.com/warrebeekeeping/zeissloff_cell_size_en.pdf

The work by Eric Zeissloff was extended by David Heaf.
http://www.dheaf.plus.com/warrebeekeeping/natural_cell_size_heaf.pdf

So all the theory behind small cell is only a nice sounding hypothesis. Nothing else. It was proofed wrong. Falsified. 

I myself did many practical experiments with small cells and regression and gave up on it after five years. A lot of time, work and money wasted. Not a slight effect was visible to me, and be sure: I am looking very closely.


----------



## Little-John

BernhardHeuvel said:


> If a small cell would be evolutionary important in some way or the other, the bees would take much more care to build that size exactly. But they don't. In fact you need to force them to do so.
> 
> The written documents describing the natural cell sizes in times before foundation, almost all describe cells larger than 4.9 mm. So _small cell_ is the exact description of those cruelity done to bees when "regressing" them.


Force ? Cruelty ? This is so much crazy talk. I have NEVER used foundation - my bees build what they want - and guess what ...

The cells they build are 4.9mm (+/- 0.1mm or so). 

They choose to build at this size. I'm not making any claims for this size of cell, other than that is what the European honey bee will build if left to it's own devices. Now that truth may be very inconvenient for those who advocate the rearing of larger bees by installing large cell foundation either in the pursuit of larger honey yields or by simply using what the beekeeping supply companies provide. But that size of cell is unnatural. And - I don't need to read the opinion of others - for I've observed this (cell size when combs are drawn naturally) with my own eyes during many years of beekeeping.

LJ


----------



## Phoebee

beepro said:


> Surely, the mites cannot fly but they can crawl at 25 mph.


I hope you are not serious.

Mites can scurry pretty quickly for a sesame seed with almost no legs, but 25 mph? 2.5 cm per second I'll believe ... seen them move about that fast myself.

My comment was that mites are not going to move from one apiary to another miles away on their own, so it is possible to have a colony so isolated that its mites don't mingle with other mite populations. I think mine is sufficiently isolated this year, since another local beek moved an outyard that used to be 3 miles away. So it would not be surprising to have local mite populations with different traits than the national average.


----------



## Barry

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Read about the historical measurements in true natural bee comb.


The beauty of the ruler is that anyone can measure for themselves the comb bees build naturally today. I don't have historical bees. I measure comb whenever I do a cutout. I can always find brood cells ranging from 4.9 to 5.2. It's quite clear that 5.4 foundation is not natural. I use the 4.9 foundation so that I at least get a percent of the smallest cells in the hive. The bees will ignore the foundation size when they want something bigger and that is fine by me.


----------



## Oldtimer

Little-John said:


> I have NEVER used foundation - my bees build what they want - and guess what ...
> 
> The cells they build are 4.9mm (+/- 0.1mm or so).
> LJ


Have you actually measured, or just eyeballed?

In Lincolnshire I would be extremely surprised if this statement was completely true. Or are you talking just a few selected cells, core broodnest, and ignored the other brood cells? I've never seen a full sized natural comb hive with all cells in such a small size range.



Little-John said:


> Evolution - over millions of years - has established that the most successful worker cell size for the European honeybee is around 4.9mm.
> LJ


Variations of this claim are often repeated, that evolution over millions of years has produced the ideal cell size for European honeybees to deal with varroa mites, of 4.9 mm. Although it matters not to me whether people believe it or not I would just like to point out the claim is untrue. Because European honeybees have not had varroa mites for millions of years, varroa got to the bees in my country 15 years ago, and bees in the US a tad before that.

So whatever cell size they have evolved has nothing to do with combating varroa it's about other factors.

Cell size is driven by bee strain, and climate. Although claims are made of cell size as small as 4.6, the average natural cell size where I live is around 5.2.


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

Beepro, thankfor telling me about your methods of monitering levels. 20% infestation would have seemed a very high threshold to me indeed. But I take it in those cases you are able comfortably to intervene? Incidentally, is there anywhere I might find some information about your OAV gadget? I confess I'm curious...

As regards the very interesting discussion on mite virulence (which, it seems to me, is directly relevant to considerations of treatment free methodology, insofar as it might aid in explaining the vast differences in opinions, observations, and results with treatment free beekeeping), I read a noteworthy statistic, though I am not able to track the original source for it. The website where I found the statistic itself is:

http://www.extension.org/pages/65450/varroa-mite-reproductive-biology#.Vfghdr_mOM8

I quote: "The transferring of mites across different species suggests that host species also affects mite reproduction. When mites from A. cerana were introduced to A. mellifera worker brood, only 10% of the mites reproduced, while 80% reproduced when A. mellifera mites were transferred to A. cerana worker brood." Perhaps someone here can verify this? If it is true, it would certainly suggest that the Varroa destructor has adapted in surprising ways since its introduction to A. mellifera.

So far as the discussion on standard cell vs. natural cell vs. small cell, I'll say only that I am following Little-John's approach. (Nothing to do with the shared name, I'm sure...) My bees shall build any size they like. I have adopted this approach for a variety of reasons, not least of which is, if I may call it so, an aesthetic one. As I stated, I'm not counting on natural cell to defeat Varroa; nor have I discounted the possibility that it might help, and perhaps for reasons I cannot predict. 

Little-John, regarding the quotation you posted (which is, incidentally, highly relevant to my opening question) - I find beekeeping so full of unforeseen consequences, that it would surprise me if there were none at all in treatment free beekeeping. You are right to point out that one must realistically moderate one's desires, and it is good to understand in what ways specifically this might be necessary. I might pose the more specific question to the forum - for those of you who are treatment free, how has your hive strength and honey gathering been affected?

In case it is of interest, I have measured the first naturally drawn comb from several of my hives, and find the measurement to be 5.1 or 5.2, as compared to the 5.4 which is standard for foundation here, as elsewhere. Whether this is the first step toward smaller sized cells, or whether the bees will hover at this measurement, as Oldtimer sees them doing in New Zealand, has yet to be seen.

John


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

Eduardo Gomes said:


> John in Italy is not required by law to treat the hives against varroasis? In Portugal the treatment is mandatory and those who do not present evidence of receiving the treatments from their beekeeping associations are fined by the state.
> 
> Obviously I am not taking any position either for or against this legislation, but only to present more this data to be taken into account by someone who ponders follow the TF in a EU country where the laws can be an obstacle.


Edoardo, this would be the ideal moment to make some sardonic jest regarding Italian legislation, but I'll restrain myself. 

In all honesty, I hadn't considered the possibility - and not because I am indifferent to the laws here, but rather because it is extraordinarily difficult to make anything out of them at all, in just about any sector you can imagine. I will look into this, however, and I thank you for bringing it to my attention. It seems to me that Portugal and Sardinia have much in common; perhaps this, too.

John


----------



## Eduardo Gomes

You're welcome John. This link http://www.researchgate.net/publica..._of_varroa_tolerance_on_Marmara_Island_Turkey is the description of an experiment being conducted in Turkey and that might interest you analyze carefully. I highlight this research to be carried out in a Mediterranean climate like that where you are to operate and also refer to a series of thresholds that may be considered by you as references. In my opinion should also consider the lineage of your bees. Good luck for your project .


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

Eduardo Gomes said:


> You're welcome John. This link http://www.researchgate.net/publica..._of_varroa_tolerance_on_Marmara_Island_Turkey is the description of an experiment being conducted in Turkey and that might interest you analyze carefully. I highlight this research to be carried out in a Mediterranean climate like that where you are to operate and also refer to a series of thresholds that may be considered by you as references. In my opinion should also consider the lineage of your bees. Good luck for your project .


Thank you very much, Eduardo. This experiment looks well worth some careful attention. I'll set aside some time tomorrow to give it the reading it deserves. I really appreciate it.

Incidentally, compliments on your signature.

John


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

Barry said:


> The beauty of the ruler is that anyone can measure for themselves the comb bees build naturally today.


Done that. And remember, I have had a many fixed comb bee hives for a long time. Found all sorts of cells. 4.9 mm can be found much less than other sizes.

I compared it to plastic fully drawn small cell comb that I used to regress the bees to small cells. Used different rulers to make sure. 





































I found small cells in natural comb, too, but as I said it is very uncommon.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

After regressing the bees with fully drawn small cell comb, I used small cell foundation. 4.9 mm



















And this is a 5.1 mm foundation.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

Although some of the combs were drawn with small cells...


















...the bees have build bigger cells whenever I stopped regressing them or they had the opportunity.










Even small cell foundation (4.9 mm cells) were drawn with bigger cells, stretching across two imprinted cells of the foundation. 

It was visible to me, that this sort of regression causes stress on the bees. Pure stress. I tried for years, never got the bees build small cells by their own. They always wanted and did build bigger cells. Bigger than >5.2 mm.


----------



## Barry

I just went out and pulled a couple of frames to measure.









As you can see, between 40 and 89 are ten cells. 4.9-5.0. Most of my frames of comb look exactly like this.









When they want drone, they make it, regardless of the foundation size.


----------



## Barry

Here's another one that's 4.9-5.0.

So we must take your warning about "wrong size" with a grain of salt! 

There was no "regressing" of these bees. They swarmed into some empty boxes I had sitting outside and I filled it with PF foundation in wood frames.


----------



## Oldtimer

Very well built small cell comb, the bees are clearly well regressed. What sizes do they build if you let them build foundationless?


----------



## Barry

I don't know, OT. I've never had an urge to try foundationless. I gave up on wax SC. I'm happy with the plastic as I get plenty of SC and they can always go bigger if they want. I'll finally be able to monitor bees on SC to see what happens. I've already seen opened caps with chewed larva so I know they're dealing with mites. The queen is still laying a very prolific pattern and brood looks very good. Just starting to see backfilling with honey on brood combs.


----------



## Oldtimer

Sounds good, you certainly have some excellent comb so it will be a good test.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

Barry said:


> ... opened caps with chewed larva...


Have those, too...on normal sized cells. Hygienic behaviour is not bound to small cells, isn't it? So why should I worry about cell sizes?

I have had Mannlake PF frames, too, and the bees build them well...sometimes. 









































































Although those combs were drawn perfectly small cell on the Mannlake foundation, firstly, when I put them on starter strips only, after two years on small cell comb, the very same bees again build normal sized cells.

Never saw any difference between small cell and normal cell size in terms of varroa resistance. I changed out irregular combs for years, which was a pain to do, to keep them on small cells only, but as said, it didn't produce resistant bees.


----------



## Barry

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Have those, too...on normal sized cells. Hygienic behaviour is not bound to small cells, isn't it? So why should I worry about cell sizes?


Never said it was bound to SC. Although in all the years I had bees on 5.4, I never saw them chewing out larva until I had them on SC. Don't worry about cell size. But you do tend to worry about other people focusing on cell size!


----------



## Oldtimer

Never seen foundation with high walls like that, at least it's a good way to force them to build small cells, if I went small cell again I'd probably get some of that.


----------



## aunt betty

Oldtimer said:


> Never seen foundation with high walls like that, at least it's a good way to force them to build small cells, if I went small cell again I'd probably get some of that.


I heard Mann Lake makes that foundation. Have heard to get that brand because the cells are deeper in the plastic. Is this true because I'm about to pay extra and get that?


----------



## Oldtimer

You mean the concave at the bottom or the extra cell wall? The photo's don't lie, at least the cell walls are obviously higher, if you are newly converting to small cell this does look like the way to go.

Something of a curiosity, bees will happily build large cell foundation, (sized from 5.2 to 5.5) with no need for raised cell walls to enforce the size. Strangely, it is only the "naturally sized" small cell (4.9 sized) foundation that people have so much trouble getting them to build properly and have to use various methods to force them to do it. Otherwise the bees tend to enlarge it and not do it "properly".

Funny that.  Ever since my own small cell adventure I have pondered whether those bees were really trying to tell me something.


----------



## beepro

Yes, the mites will glide, not walk or crawl on the comb. I think their legs have
certain gliding pads almost like the sled sliding through the snow that enable them to speed through
the comb to attach to the next available slow bee. For sure, and I am not kidding that I cannot
catch the fast free running mites. Maybe if you spend one summer catching them trying to cut
them in half with a razor blade then you will understand more of them like I do. 
Now it is not just the bees that I have to understand more but also the mites involved. Are they
the more virulent strains? Yes, I would think so that they can cause the mite foul brood syndrome and the dwv disease that
will wipe out my hives without any oav and antibiotics to control them. After 2 Spring hive crashes in a row, I am finally able to keep them in
check all year long thanks to my stationary oav gadget invention. Adding 2 more new gadgets to my hive set up last week. Should
explode my apiary from now on. We will see!


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

Eduardo Gomes said:


> John in Italy is not required by law to treat the hives against varroasis?


Eduardo, alas, but you are right. It is indeed required by law. Or rather - it is required by law to inform the ministry of health of the presence of Varroa in any of one's hives; at which point, the said ministry will supposedly mandate a specific treatment regime.

I won't comment on the efficacy of a law which would necessitate the declaration of every hive in the nation. Suffice to say, this _does _explain to me why I've been unable to find any treatment free beekeepers here in Italy. This is admittedly discouraging - but I do thank you again for bringing the matter to light.

John


----------



## AR Beekeeper

Oldtimer; Their reluctance to draw comb and that queens are so reluctant to lay in the small cells. I had queens that went 3 weeks without laying when put into a colony with small cell comb.


----------



## aunt betty

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> Eduardo, alas, but you are right. It is indeed required by law. Or rather - it is required by law to inform the ministry of health of the presence of Varroa in any of one's hives; at which point, the said ministry will supposedly mandate a specific treatment regime.
> 
> I won't comment on the efficacy of a law which would necessitate the declaration of every hive in the nation. Suffice to say, this _does _explain to me why I've been unable to find any treatment free beekeepers here in Italy. This is admittedly discouraging - but I do thank you again for bringing the matter to light.
> 
> John


Brilliant. Make it a felony to possess varroa mites and the problem is over. You got mites? Nope. 
Figured eventually a large group of people (politicians) would come up with a legal solution and there it is.


----------



## lharder

First year foundationless, the comb went to 5.1. I'll have some empty comb to check next spring.


----------



## jwcarlson

lharder said:


> First year foundationless, the comb went to 5.1.


How much of the comb is 5.1?


----------



## AR Beekeeper

When I started "regressing" a few colonies a number of years age I used wax foundation. I started with 5.1 which all colonies drew correctly. The problems started when I went below 5.1 to 4.9mm. With the wax foundation it took the third try with 4.9mm before they drew comb even close to acceptable. The two colonies I have on small cell now is on Honey Super Cell, believe me you don't want any of those frames, the bees hate them. I will change them on to wax foundation next spring, if they make it.


----------



## Eduardo Gomes

In my country the varroa came in the mid- 80s and wiped out most of the colonies that for years and years built their combs in an absolutely natural way in here called " cortiços ". The natural cell is not saved them from varroa . Here in Portugal and I suspect that in many regions of the world wild swarms were decimated to near extinction and the natural cell did not save them. The cell said natural 4.9mm or less also did not yield great result in the protection of bees from Erick Osterlund, an unsuspecting beekeeper, for their knowledge, experience and philosophy (you can read here his story in his own words http://www.elgon.se/story-2008/Varroa_attacks.pdf. )

Making my own the words of Rusty I conclude: "I hear plenty of conflicting stories—anecdotal evidence of how changing to small cells cured the mite problem. But when researcher after researcher cannot reproduce those results, I have to wonder if the anecdotal cases aren’t due to exogenous variables or just plain luck." (from http://www.honeybeesuite.com/small-cells-do-not-control-varroa-mites/)


----------



## lharder

Tom Seeleys study indicated feral bees in NE US did suffer a genetic bottleneck of sorts, followed by adaption. So small cell is probably not enough to save bees newly exposed to varroa. But if the bees are on a bit of a knife edge in terms of adaption, small cell may be a smaller additive effect that may make the difference between survival and death. Certainly in the beginning of an mite introduction, beekeepers probably need to treat to stay viable as the bees are completely naive. However, this is where government can be useful to create a program large enough to find survivors and aggressively build from those. However, typically its the lack of resources to treat that brings long term success rather than insightful intervention.


----------



## lharder

Re 5.1 cell size. I only measured a couple of combs in the center. Totally anecdotal. Perhaps I'll have enough death this year to venture closer to a statistical description. I may have screwed up my "regression as the some bees used some 5.4 plastic I had in the supers for brood. There seems to be a mix of bee size in my hives. Not a bad thing perhaps. 

The swarm I caught had some problems building on the 1 1/4 " frame spacing I have. They built further and further out on the foundationless frames and ended up with some wacky comb. I'm sure I caught somebodies large cell bees. However, now they seem to have settled nicely on that spacing.


----------



## Oldtimer

A beekeeper from overseas moved to my country around 2 years ago, he is a small cell beekeeper, and on our local New Zealand bee chat site claimed he'd been successful overseas and was going to do the same here.

I think he was a pretty good beekeeper because he posted some pics of some lovely hives and nicely drawn small cell comb which he had in only one season been able to get the bees regressed to and drawing properly. He had bought some bees, caught some swarms and done some cutouts, and in only one season had gone to more than 50 hives.

Said he was very pleased with the different breeds he had been able to get hold of, and that he would make them all mite resistant and they would not get any disease. Some felt this was a rather bold claim and unfortunately, as is the way things sometimes go on the internet, he shot his mouth off somewhat and was rather arrogant thinking that he had the answer and no one else could understand. Couldn't handle different opinions so started calling people ignorant etc, and was kicked off the forum so I lost track what he was up to.

Anyhow a few weeks ago I met a beekeeper from the same town so asked after the small cell guy, he said yes he knew him, in fact they were good friends. I asked how the small cell bees were going, he said "they are not". Turns out 4 of them got AFB and had to be burned, and of the rest, only 3 still have any bees in them and the guy I was talking to didn't think they would have any bees for much longer. Despite that the guy I spoke with is going to convert some of his own bees to small cell.

However, going bond and having zero survivors does not really help one establish a breeding stock. While I felt sorry for the guy it made me feel a little better about my own small cell attempt which failed even though I felt I had done everything right. This guy was already a successful small cell beekeeper, yet did no better than me, over here.


----------



## Fusion_power

> However, typically its the lack of resources to treat that brings long term success rather than insightful intervention.


I can think of 5 successful treatment free beekeepers and none of them got there from lack of resources. Each of them got to treatment free by being observant, finding tolerance in a few colonies, then increasing from the tolerant bees. I got a start from a single highly mite tolerant colony that I caught as a swarm. Yes, it was serendipity, but if I had not been watching, I would not have noticed that they were healthy when my other colonies were in serious need of treatment back in 2004.

I will agree that bees left to sink or swim on their own rapidly develop tolerance traits, however, most of them are based on serial swarming with extreme brood breaks any time nectar is not available. These are not traits conducive to producing honey.


----------



## lharder

Perhaps some other things can be done where bees are new to varroa besides small cell. Like keeping new nucs in a separate beeyard from failing 2nd year hives, and using robber screens on failing hives. One may have hives on the cusp of success, then get overwhelmed by external forces. There probably isn't even much residual build up of resistance in New Zealand, so a tf apiary will continually get unadapted genetics washing over it. Its a big ask for a single beekeeper. Ideally there would be a government program involving 1000s of hives over a large area to do an initial screening. Also is there a feral bee population in New Zealand? Must be. It may have largely disappeared, but once adapted will fill their niche again. The work done by Seeley et al (we shouldn't forget the others working on that project) needs to be duplicated in New Zealand and areas of feral bees monitored genetically.


----------



## Oldtimer

lharder said:


> There probably isn't even much residual build up of resistance in New Zealand, so a tf apiary will continually get unadapted genetics washing over it.


You on it, that's exactly what happens. We have close to 3/4 of a million hives here in a country the size of one American state, plus beekeeping is pretty migratory. We do not have the remoteness that has allowed pockets of resistance to establish free of interference in the US.



lharder said:


> Also is there a feral bee population in New Zealand?


For the most part no. There is talk about supposed feral populations in some remote areas, but I think it's just that, talk.

Thing is, when varroa arrived in the USA most ferals were wiped out and same thing happened here. But USA got mites before we did so there has been more time for a resistant population to establish.


However my comments a few posts back were not so much to discuss the existence or otherwise of ferals, but more a comment on the effectiveness of small cell, maybe it is an "edge tipper" as some claim, but what I've seen around here, it is not a cure all.


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

Thanks to all once more for your responses. 

I had a follow-up question, if I may. Several of the posters on my thread have noted that twenty hives from a single source are too few, and too genetically similar, to establish a breeding program with any real hope of success. I trust the validity of this point.

I would like the forum's opinion then on two points: What numbers, and what sort of genetic diversity (if such can be quantified), would be sufficient to:

1. consider breeding for Varroa resistent queens?

2. consider enacting something along the lines of the Bond or the Soft Bond approach?

John


----------



## beepro

The 20 hives with similar genetics is true. 
So even with 13 hives you can start the tf process.
The one question you want to answer is do you have the
mite fighting or resistant type of bees in your closely set up apiary.
If out of 400 hives then only one has this resistant then you can
graft from it otherwise it is useless to start the tf process.
All of your hives do not have the resistant genetics, then what?

On my 2nd year I found 2 hives that I have with the resistant queens.
I did not know how to graft to preserve their genetics so I requeened them all.
And lost this good genetics. Yes, I really regret until these days. Luckily I found a source of the vsh and the survivor stocks to get some queens from. 
So you have to find an isolated yard with the most resistant queens to graft from.
Then flood the area with those resistant drones. The genetics diversity we are looking for are the no treat but survived hives 2-3 seasons in a row. Over here we have the mite biting bees, the Russians, the vsh and the no treat survivor stocks to choose from all over the country. These are consider the genetic diversity you are looking for if you were here. Whether or not you are successful depends on the right type of bees that can live with the mites. For that it is a very long process so get the right bees to start off will do.
So far I have only play with the no treat survivor stocks and the vsh stocks using method #3.


----------



## crofter

If you want some reading into what goes into a reasonably thought out metodology, do a search on this site. It explains in detail their deliberations to include diversity, methods of selection and other aspects of control. I find it a mind boggling degree of difficulty and so much influenced by chance. Also very easy to be impacted by uncontrolled and virtually uncontrollable events.

The Saskatraz Honey Bee Breeding Project
www.saskatraz.com/

You will see what I meant in my original post about needing a lot of time, patience and very deep pockets unless you have a belief that some deity is smiling upon you.


----------



## Phoebee

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> I had a follow-up question, if I may. Several of the posters on my thread have noted that twenty hives from a single source are too few, and too genetically similar, to establish a breeding program with any real hope of success. I trust the validity of this point.
> 
> 
> John


How many hives would it take, assuming you did not start with any known varroa resistance? Hand me those dice ... we're gambling.

In biology, I have seen a large number of historical examples of a new disease wiping out large portions of an existing population. In the extreme cases, the number that keeps recurring is 95%. It is not always that high, but you do read about this level more often that you would guess. One breeding individual in 20 is resistant in bad cases. If it is much worse than that you may be looking at extinction.

But one individual can't breed in most species, and you need some diversity to get a viable colony. So if you have 20 hives, and one resistant queen, you need drones from at least one other colony, and you would like to have the resistance in that colony as well. So at a minimum, and still requiring luck, you want 40 hives. But that is still a gamble, with perhaps even odds, and still only the barest minimum of resulting diversity. So probably 100 colonies or more if you want some decent hope for success.

Far better, if you can, to cheat by loading the dice or marking the cards ... start with bees that have already shown some resistance on their own, as discussed above.


----------



## AR Beekeeper

BWeaver started with 2000 hives and lost all but 200 the first winter. Using thousands of hives it took them about 5 years of selection to get their line of bees.


----------



## beepro

Out of 20 hives to find a resistant queen is not that easy.
Even for the mite biting bees, the keeper has to spent a week looking for a potential
breeder. So if your bees do not have the resistant traits then it is impossible to find one.
So the best solution is to find a beekeeper who can sell you some of those traits to speed up
your selection process. Starting from scratch is hard enough in my own experiences.
5-10 years don't even know yet. But you are welcome to try though. Just the mite foul broods
and its related diseases can wiped out your entire apiary. So spread them far and thin away.


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

beepro said:


> Just the mite foul broods and its related diseases can wiped out your entire apiary. So spread them far and thin away.


Beepro, this seems like good advice to me in any case. I have begun to do just this, with such separation as I am able - groups of three hives, each hive facing a different direction, and each group separated by fifteen meters from any other. I intend to break into two apiaries as well starting from next spring. 

I will be looking, of course, for resistance in my own hives, in the off chance that some unexpected trait shows up there; and as for spending a great deal of time looking for such things, I have the time to spare. Next year, as mentioned, I hope to enrich my genetic pool with swarms or cut outs. That is something of a crapshoot - but then, from what I can tell, much of breeding is.

Crofter, I thank you for the link. It looks to be of great interest, and I am looking forward to delving into it.

AR Beekeeper, that is a startling and unhappy tale; though I am sure not the only one of its kind. In fact, perhaps it is only the great number of colonies lost that is really surprising, since I think I have read 10% or even 5% as a consistent statistic for survivors in treatment free yards that suddenly and radically go "cold turkey." I'm curious about what happened... If he had 2000 hives to start, BWeaver must have been in the business for some time before he decided to breed for Varroa resistance. What caused the change, and how did he go about it? Did he use something like the Bond approach?

John


----------



## AR Beekeeper

Yes, the Weaver family had been producing queens for 3 generations in Texas. There is a video on YouTube taken during an association meeting that features Mr. Weaver describing how they went about selecting resistance. They would raise queens from colonies that survived each winter, always selecting for the traits they wanted. They used many hundred, or thousands, of colonies each year.

Their queen's workers are not gentile enough for me to use, at least the queens I have purchased in the past and the one's I tried again this year. I have my bees at my home and I have neighbors that have children and grandchildren that play in areas close to my hives. The bees are controlled by smoke when working them, but they have an attitude much more defensive than my other bees.


----------



## jim lyon

AR Beekeeper said:


> BWeaver started with 2000 hives and lost all but 200 the first winter.


I'm guessing that was about the time they bought a semi load of our treated hives.


----------



## AHudd

jim lyon said:


> I'm guessing that was about the time they bought a semi load of our treated hives.


It's going take me all day to digest the implications of your statement. And I'll probably still not get it right. Guessing???

Alex


----------



## cavscout

My goal is to be completely treatment free. I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel so I have a few of the Bweaver queens this season and will order a few of Sam's queens next year. I plan on mixing the genetics of established treatment free sources and seen how they fair in my part of the world. Very interesting times!


----------



## jim lyon

AHudd said:


> It's going take me all day to digest the implications of your statement. And I'll probably still not get it right. Guessing???
> 
> Alex


I have a lot of respect for Weavers. The time frame was the early 90's and lots of difficulties were being experienced by all beekeepers. The sale was in the fall. We were long time customers and friends. Im assuming they had more spring orders than bees. Just sayin.


----------



## AHudd

Jim, thanks for clearing that up.
I bought into the ideals that the Weavers are promoting, albeit in a very small way. I hope it is true.

Thanks,
Alex


----------



## jim lyon

AHudd said:


> Jim, thanks for clearing that up.
> I bought into the ideals that the Weavers are promoting, albeit in a very small way. I hope it is true.
> 
> Thanks,
> Alex


I have no reason to believe it isn't. Some of the history may be a bit murky, though.


----------



## cavscout

A lot of complaints that the Weaver bees run a little on the hot side. During my research for treatment free bees, being a little hot is not a bad thing for treatment free. As I understand the more aggressive colonies have less mite issues and are noted to make more honey. Its not been something that I have witnessed, but living in S. Texas our bees are a little hot.


----------



## fieldsofnaturalhoney

jim lyon said:


> I have no reason to believe it isn't. Some of the history may be a bit murky, though.


Isn't all history


----------



## Fusion_power

I purchased 3 Weaver queens this past summer and have colonies going into winter that I would categorize as run of the mill. They are no more and no less defensive than the rest of my treatment free bees. However, when compared to the Italians I purchased from Glenn Fowler back in the early 1980's, my current bees are much more defensive.


----------



## beepro

I bought Pete's bees in NY that has the mild temperament of the Italians/Russian mixed. Then my local
carnis drones from the bee association nearby are the gentlest type I have ever seen. My question is if
I graft from Pete's queen and her daughters are mated with the local carnis, what kind of bees do I have? 
Are they hot, a little hot or extra gentle? What do you think?

Also, I think the little hotter than usual bees are influenced by the local environment. It is a trait that can
be selected over time to pick the gentle bees. In the area without the AHB influence you can raise the extra
gentle bees. It is a matter of knowing how to select them.


----------



## Oldtimer

The cross will tend towards hotter than either parent, but can vary, can be pretty gentle also.


----------



## D Semple

Fusion_power said:


> I will agree that bees left to sink or swim on their own rapidly develop tolerance traits, however, most of them are *based on serial swarming with extreme brood breaks any time nectar is not available. These are not traits conducive to producing honey*.


I would agree with you about the natural brood breaks being very important. The hives I have that don't shut down brood production during our late summer dearth invariably fail after a couple of seasons. 

Like wise I've found that any management that stimulates brood rearing is counter productive to long term colony survival. 


Don


5 years, 20 - 30 colonies, tf, sc. Have never bought a bee.


----------



## jwcarlson

So what happens if there isn't a late summer dearth? We didn't have one here, in fact the flow seemed to pick up steam as summer went one and then into what has amounted to a great fall flow.
Is a good honey year just a bad treatment free year?


----------



## D Semple

jwcarlson said:


> So what happens if there isn't a late summer dearth?


Varroa wins eventually.


Don


----------



## Oldtimer

Ah - that's interesting and may be part of my problem, brood 365 days a year here.


----------



## crofter

D Semple said:


> Varroa wins eventually.
> Don


Very interesting about the brood breaks Vs the mites breeding success. Perhaps this action that could easily be driven by local weather and nectar flow is one of the main deciding factors. Some persons success in regards to TF might well be wrongly attributed to something else entirely.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

double post deleted


----------



## Juhani Lunden

jwcarlson said:


> So what happens if there isn't a late summer dearth? We didn't have one here, in fact the flow seemed to pick up steam as summer went one and then into what has amounted to a great fall flow.
> Is a good honey year just a bad treatment free year?


Probably is. 
For instance John Kefuss has crossed _A.m.intermissa _into his stock. Intermissa is famous for midsummer brood breaks. (Sahara dearth)
My bees seem to be every year alarmingly weak in the beginning of August. This is because of slow down of brood rearing in midsummer. Then they recover before winter. Varroa resistant bees, at least what there is today, have smaller brood areas and they keep a good control of brood. They open infested cells. Regarding to defensive behaviour I agree with Fusion Power, my bees are more aggressive than before. They can be Ok, but for instance when they are waiting for a young queen to become mature, they can be almost unmanageable.


----------



## jwcarlson

Seems like a good way to lose colonies having them dwindle to nothing and then hope there is enough left there to boot back up for the fall flow and then enough of a fall flow to store enough food. Those bees would have starved to death here last year by September. How effectively can a colony like that forage in the fall or even early spring coming through winter? Are they also extremely frugal? Waiting until nectar and pollen are readily available in the spring before they start laying?


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

Because we don't have a fall flow here, such hives having bees with "brood breaks" in August or so, are dead before winter, simple as that. I find the bees that have brood all year round, survive the best. Not excessive brood, but always a nice and stable brood pattern.

Also I don't think, hotness is a required feature of treatment free bees. I have some dozens of treatment free hives, for years, and those bees are calm as can be. I posted a video recently. Here is another one, of a colony in a wall of an old house:





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzhSjk-XSbc

I am watching those and some other wild hives for years and they survive on their own. You can stuck your nose right into the entrance (Yes, I do that. Smelling what's going on inside.) and they are not even slightly aggressive. So aggressiveness is not bound to mite tolerance. And not the other way round.

Africanized bees in Southern America loose their varroa tolerance after the other varroa type of mite landed there. So even those africanized bees are not truely resistent. Although they are aggressive, as I hear. 

There are some studies I read, and they came to the conclusion, aggressiveness doesn't help neither with varroa resistence nor with honey production. From what I have experienced so far, I support this view.

There are different sorts of aggressiveness, though. Bees defending the entrance are not necessarily fighting the beekeeper who intrudes into the hive. Also entrance aggressiveness doesn't mean, they show brood hygienic behaviour. The chewing and clearing of punched/freezed brood doesn't necessarily mean they can detect and remove mites in capped brood. 

I didn't find the formula what the actual mechanism is, that let the bees survive on their own. But I know, that it is not aggressive, defensive behaviour.


----------



## D Semple

jwcarlson said:


> Seems like a good way to lose colonies having them dwindle to nothing and then hope there is enough left there to boot back up for the fall flow and then enough of a fall flow to store enough food. Those bees would have starved to death here last year by September.


Got to leave them plenty of honey reserves. 



jwcarlson said:


> How effectively can a colony like that forage in the fall or even early spring coming through winter? Are they also extremely frugal? Waiting until nectar and pollen are readily available in the spring before they start laying?



The bees that survive best in my apiary start a little slower but have explosive growth in the spring triggered by maple pollen in late Feb. or early march. Bee populations by the time our main flow starts in mid April are about the same or bigger. And by the time yellow clover kicks in in May the hives are really booming. After clover the brood rearing slows or shuts down for about a month in late July and starts back up again in response to early golden rod in late August. By mid to late September bee numbers are back up some in time to catch some of the fall flow from golden rod and asters. 

They are not better or worse bees just different and have to be managed differently to maximize production. (And, yes they will flat light me up if I mess with them in August.)

They still don't survive varroa forever, they just die slower. 

Don


----------



## jwcarlson

D Semple,
Do you find that the first patches of brood after a break like that are highly infested? Do they chew most of them out? Do the pupae die?


----------



## D Semple

jwcarlson said:


> D Semple,
> Do you find that the first patches of brood after a break like that are highly infested? Do they chew most of them out? Do the pupae die?


Don't know, I have never looked for that. 

Don


----------



## Phoebee

jwcarlson said:


> D Semple,
> Do you find that the first patches of brood after a break like that are highly infested? Do they chew most of them out? Do the pupae die?


This was on my mind recently. I split two nucs of of my strongest hive, moving the queen to one of the nucs. The strong hive and the other nuc raised emergency queens from eggs, giving a nice brood break.

Well, fine, but I'd been warned that brood breaks just mean the phoretic mites are still alive and waiting for some brood about to cap, and can do so for quite a while. According to a recent Bee Culture magazine, the mite population may dwindle some but the method is not 100% by a long shot. So I have to figure, when the new queen starts laying, that the phoretic mites make a mad dash for the first larvae to be capped.

In my case, the new queen in the strong hive stumbled on to the Pierco drone frame and must have liked the color or something because she proceeded to pack it with drone brood. This was really silly ... they'd hatch just in time for the drone eviction. But what the heck, when I found a deep frame 80% covered with capped drone brood a couple of weeks after she mated, they were outta there, and their nasty mites with them.

Which left me wondering. The very first brood to cap would have been worker brood. Just how badly did they get infested? The bees are VSH, so hopefully they would deal with the problem, and apparently did. Their mite drop rate now is tiny.

But would it make sense to cull the first round of capped brood after a brood break?


----------



## biggraham610

I'm not sure that I would want to do that, though I am sure it would be hard on the mites. Seems to me like after a good brood break, the hive is declining in numbers significantly by the time the first round of new brood emerges. Not sure how the 2 "extra" weeks of broodbreak would affect the colony, I am sure there are many variables, but I would expect it to put the hive more than the 2 wks behind. G


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Because we don't have a fall flow here, such hives having bees with "brood breaks" in August or so, are dead before winter, simple as that. I find the bees that have brood all year round, survive the best. Not excessive brood, but always a nice and stable brood pattern.


Bernhard, this is very interesting to me, as I live in a place where bees keep brood year round. I would have thought it a terrible liability as far as Varroa is concerned, as it gives the Varroa the opportunity to breed nonstop. Any ideas why your year-round brood keepers are stronger? Do you think it is just because they are able to build up well in summer in preparation for your fall dearth, or is there another reason?

John


----------



## Juhani Lunden

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Because we don't have a fall flow here, such hives having bees with "brood breaks" in August or so, are dead before winter, simple as that. I find the bees that have brood all year round, survive the best. Not excessive brood, but always a nice and stable brood pattern.


Emphasis on "not excessive"

I´m not sure my bees on purpose make a brood break, it might just happen when mite load builds up and because of that they take out more brood. 

On the other Primorski bees are famous for storing pollen sometimes even under the brood area and in the middle frames of brood area. Storing pollen in the middle of brood area only happens when there is room for these stores. Why would there be an empty frame in the middle of brood area? Only feasible answer is because they, maybe queen and workers together, limit brood rearing. 

For years it has been a warning sign for me if a queen makes a huge brood area. It just doesn't work with varroa. Maybe in the future when we have better varroa resistant bees.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

Do you adapt the size of the broodnest like Brother Adam did?


----------



## Juhani Lunden

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Do you adapt the size of the broodnest like Brother Adam did?


No


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Juhani Lunden said:


> Storing pollen in the middle of brood area only happens when there is room for these stores. Why would there be an empty frame in the middle of brood area? Only feasible answer is because they, maybe queen and workers together, limit brood rearing.


Pollen storing is a marvellous example of self-organization. Nobody tells bees to store pollen in the side frames outside brood area and as a stripe above brood. It just happens. Their instinct says it must be stored near brood. 

Here is what happens:Queen start egg laying in a small circle, near the bottom of the hive. Pollen is stored nearby- but it is consumed as the eggs hatch. Queen makes a bigger brood circle. More pollen is stored near that etc. In the end brood area has reached the maximum size and the major pollen stores accumulate just outside it. 
Queen always tries to make as tight ball as possible, to save energy. If there is a frame of pollen in the middle of brood area then the queen has limited her normal rate of egg laying(or workers limited feeding her).


----------



## beepro

So you are saying that an organized hive should have the pollen stored outside
the brood area. What if the queen want to lay beyond the pollen band area?
Is this a good queen to keep or should she be discarded?
So far I have seen 2 type of queens. One that will obey the organized way of not
laying beyond the pollen band no matter how much empty cells are on the other side. This type of queen I don't like because it will take too long for the hive to build up. Then some other queens will not obey this organized law that they have. Some queens just lay on every empty worker/drone cells that they find even on the new empty cell drawn frames that I put in. They don't care and seem to ignored the fact that not much workers are caring for the new larvae once hatched. Maybe they are desperate to expand their workforce faster. I'm not sure.
So which type of queen is better to keep? The organized, not lay beyond the pollen band or the lay whenever she see an empty cell queen.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

Well I meant a situation where brood area looks altogether very unfamiliar: there is a LOT of pollen inside the brood area, whole frames of pollen and pollen on brood frames. Sometimes pollen underneath brood. Sometimes just a lot of empty cells in the middle of brood area.

I think, but I´m no scientist, that this phenomena is happening only because the queen in the middle of summer for some reason is not keeping her brood area as big as it used to be in the early summer expansion phase.


----------



## beepro

This type of queens that do not follow the organized law inside the hive will
lay during the summer dearth months too. They don't care and keep on laying if you
give them enough resources to keep them going all year long. We have mild winter here so the bees do not go into cluster mode. 
What is your opinions on this type of queens? Once in a while I will see some are like those described.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

I´m not quite sure which type of queen your question was about, but if you meant what do I recon about queens that just keep on laying, I don´t like them and I´m pretty sure no survivor bees will be found among them.

They are sometimes called in my country as "Meat hives", because they just produce a lot of brood but little honey.


----------



## beepro

I don't know what is most frightening.
Doing night inspection without the smoker on while fully suit up or doing a normal
inspection without a bee suit on. Perhaps you have the world's most gentlest type of
bees that even in my backyard cannot compare. And here I am always thinking that I have
the gentlest type of bees here. Now I know!


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

I have treatment free hives. Already posted this video, but I repeat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_qdElx-D8Q 

The same hive is still going strong today (October 2015):





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNwJirk8q-c 

No mites or shriveled wings visible, only some combs of brood right now. Top box full of honey. Middle box has some honey. Bottom box is empty.

This is what I do and what _seems_ to work to start a treatment free hive: Start a hive, feed it, treat it, let it grow. Then step by step go treatment free. 

1. Year
Start the hive, feed (syrup and pollen) and treat against varroa. Dribbling oxalic acid in December.

2. Year
No honey harvest. Let the prime swarm go (you can catch it and start another hive), break all queen cells except one/a few = prevent cast swarms.
Feed (syrup and pollen) and flash treat with formic acid in August.

3. Year 
Let the prime swarm go (you can catch it and start another hive), break all queen cells except one/a few = prevent cast swarms.
No feeding. No treatment. Honey harvest in October = take only three honeycombs from the top box. Leave space empty.

In subsequent years
Let the prime swarm go (you can catch it and start another hive), break all queen cells except one/a few = prevent cast swarms.
No feeding. No treatment. Honey harvest in October = three honeycomb from the top frame.

My experience shows...

positive effects on the survival of untreated hives:
- old seasoned honeycombs, at least a couple of years old
- a lot of propolis
- no summer honey harvest
- strong hives at all time
- prevent swarms or at least cast swarms
- one hive per site/"apiary"

disadvantage to survival is:
- young white honeycomb
- little/no propolis present
- harvest of honey in June/July/August or whenever your main flow ends
- Letting the bees swarm freely, especially too many cast swarms
- Weakened hives
- Many hives per site

Don't let the hives die in the name of varroa resistence. Feed, if necessary. Treat, when necessary. Build the hives slowly into strong hives. Keep them that way. Only when they are big and strong, they can assert themselves. Young life is just sensitive!


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Don't let the hives die in the name of varroa resistence. Feed, if necessary. Treat, when necessary. Build the hives slowly into strong hives. Keep them that way. Only when they are big and strong, they can assert themselves. Young life is just sensitive!


This is very interesting, Bernhard, thank you for sharing your videos and your method. Your bees are lovely, and your experience is intriguing. I wonder - how much of the success of these hives do you attribute to their annual swarming? (I've seen several indications in studies and beekeepers' experiences which suggest that swarming is of great aid against Varroa). And another question - with one hive per site, how many apiaries do you keep, and how far apart are they? When you say that you leave the space empty after harvesting in October, what do you mean exactly? Do you let the bees build free comb there, or do do you add frames at some other time? Do you think that adding honey supers above the third box is detrimental to the bees' health?

Thanks once again.

John


----------



## beepro

What I am interested in is the one hive per apiary part.
How come one hive in a location and not 2 or 3? Is the purpose
to ensure the proper feed to that individual hive?


----------



## jim lyon

Interesting post and link, Bernhard. Let's call it modified Bond or "live and let live". There was a time when this most informative post would have stood about the same chance of survival as your original hive.


----------

