# My Wooden PF-120s



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Looks nice.

I might order deep pf frames and cut the "foundation" in half. I'll save a little money, and the open space at the bottom of the frame can be used as the bees prefer.

I did the same with some Honey Super Cell.

I'm going to order narrow endbars for a case of frames that are lingering in my attic...


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

You do know Mann lake sells small cell foundation? I'd thought I just throw that out there, beats cutting up frames unless you really like plastic.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

JRG13 said:


> You do know Mann lake sells small cell foundation? I'd thought I just throw that out there, beats cutting up frames unless you really like plastic.


Yes, the people that are doing this are intentionally using plastic...


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

Beecurious are you regressing your bees or are they allready SC. 

I know they do jrg but i am try to regress my bees and I have been told that they will have less trouble drawing out the plastic cells, as as opposed to the regular foundation.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

sfisher said:


> Beecurious are you regressing your bees or are they allready SC.
> 
> Snip


I started with two small cell nucs in 2008, and also regressed a package or two with Honey Super Cell.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Ok, my bees never drew out plastic well, but if you can get yours too, it makes some sense. Plastic has it's usefulness. My bees drew the wax foundation out quite nicely, I don't see why they would have issue to it over plastic.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I think the issue he's talking about is the bees not drawing 4.9mm cells if he gave them an easy choice.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I see, I guess with wax foundation, they could always chew it and draw whatever they like. I stuck mine right in the brood nest and they drew it fine even in September. Faster than the pf100's that sat unused for 2 months. The frames had brood in under two weeks.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> I might order deep pf frames and cut the "foundation" in half. I'll save a little money, and the open space at the bottom of the frame can be used as the bees prefer.


Why not cut them in half vertically instead of horizontally? Wouldn't you then be able to just pop in the half sheets to the grooved top and bottom bars and not need to worry about supporting the plastic from the top frame while they draw them out?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Fishman43 said:


> Why not cut them in half vertically instead of horizontally? Wouldn't you then be able to just pop in the half sheets to the grooved top and bottom bars and not need to worry about supporting the plastic from the top frame while they draw them out?


To attach the plastic to the topbars I would use a "wax tube fastener" or a hot glue gun.

When I use wax 4.9mm foundation I buy deeps as well.


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

I am still trying to get a grip on why small cell plastic seems to be popular. In life, when I can, I generally try to avoid plastic, so I guess I am surprised at how prolific its usage is for small cell. I would assume small cell folks would lean more towards natural foundation building. What am I missing here?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Plastic small cell is popular in my view because of a few reasons:

1. It works.
2. It is far easier to use than wax. 
3. It can be used any time of year when bees are in the mood to draw comb. They will draw it correctly even in supers during the middle of the summer.I have been using wax for nine years, and I can assure you PF-1xx frames work far better, producing ugly comb only about 1% of the time. To get the same with wax, you have to have the comb drawn at the right time and by bees already regressed.
4. Michael Bush recommends it.
5. Most people who use it recommend it.
6. It is much more economical than using wood frames with foundation.
7. Foundationless doesn't always turn out how you want it to.

Plastic is ubiquitous in our environment. It holds virtually all the food you eat at some point. It is literally everywhere. I don't see the problem with it. I have heard a guy eschew plastic frames while also bragging about drinking FGMO from a plastic bottle, demonstrating how safe it was.

Small cell is not the same thing as foundationless or 'natural cell.' Small cell is a thing, it is 4.9mm cell size. Small cell folks use small cell. Foundationless folks use foundationless. It's as simple as that, they are two different things.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Beelosopher said:


> What am I missing here?


The only reason I am considering it is because it uses an extremely small amount of commercial wax, wax that is known to have chemical residue. The clean wax foundation I have that is SC is lacking any cell walls, so the bees don't do a good job of building SC comb on it, otherwise I'd have no issue using my own wax foundation.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I have to admit I like the feel and function of plastic frames more and more except all the little holes in the sides. If only my bees would draw them out. Luckily my bees are regressed already and drew small cell wax out like champs. At first I didn't like plastic frames but their design is actually easier to work with and I like the small nubs on the end as they're easier to grab onto and lift out. They do have some drawbacks, but comparing cost vs. time to install, it's a no brainer and the reusability and cleanability are also superior unless of course they break or get warped badly by sun or heat.


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

Interesting. 

I understand that small cell is a "thing" and different from foundationless. However I assumed that people seeking small cell went about getting there by letting their bees go foundationaless, or regressing and ultimately going foundationless. The thought in my head was that if the bees were drawing foundationless they would naturally return to small cell on their own. Now if you go from 5.4 foundation and cold turkey to foundationless, the bees may not respond so well and draw cattywampus like.

Plastic being ubiquitous doesn't give it proper credence for me to just jump on the band wagon however (plenty of my food comes from my dirt and never touches plastic). I needed some of the other reasons that people were using it to better understand (thanks). As with anything opinions across beeks would likely vary quite a bit depending on what school of thought they have regarding foundation/foundationless/small cell approach. 

In line with Barry's comment, this is why I would be reticent in using plastic, or any other foundation for that matter. I grow and produce much of my own food to reduce pesticides, antibiotics, etc. for the times when I have to go to the store.

Like I say, if I were a new beekeeper and attempting to go treatment free and with a more nature spun approach, grabbing a bunch of plastic frames seems a bit odd to me. But hey, I am a new guy, what do I know about anything? I don't even have any bees yet.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

But you are the bee philosopher! Nothing wrong with that.


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

Barry said:


> But you are the bee philosopher! Nothing wrong with that.


how true  Well played sir!


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## d.frizzell (Aug 27, 2012)

I thought Michael Bush recommends foundationless?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Beelosopher said:


> However I assumed that people seeking small cell went about getting there by letting their bees go foundationaless, or regressing and ultimately going foundationless.


A lot of people have attempted to go in that direction, but I don't know why. I'm not sure if it's a desire to do things gradually or what. I don't know about you, but I want to get things done. With wax, it takes usually two or more cycles, with PF-120s it takes one. With foundationless, it may never happen. You may never reach 4.9mm. I still don't know why it's done. None of the big proponents recommend doing it that way.




Beelosopher said:


> the bees may not respond so well and draw cattywampus like.


That's going to happen no matter what you do. It will happen eventually, or with some hives, exclusively.




Beelosopher said:


> Like I say, if I were a new beekeeper and attempting to go treatment free and with a more nature spun approach, grabbing a bunch of plastic frames seems a bit odd to me.


If you were going the nature spun approach, I'd say yes, go ahead. However, nature took maybe even a decade to recover from the mite problem. With a more of a 'pop the clutch' method, I say it can be done in three or so. We live in the anthropocene era now. We are keeping bees in thin wooden boxes, exposing them to all sorts of radiation, pesticides, herbicides, and inspections. 'More nature' is as close as you're going to get. It will never be just 'natural.' However, if you want to get the job done, there is only one other option to get regression done in one fell stroke, and it involves even more plastic.

If you were looking for a more natural approach, I'd suggest catching swarms. It doesn't get much more natural than that, catching a healthy bunch of bees who are good enough at their job to decide to spread their work elsewhere, and locally adapted (hopefully) to boot. Nucs would be the second option, a hive already in operation. Steer clear of packages.




d.frizzell said:


> I thought Michael Bush recommends foundationless?


He does. One may recommend more than one thing. I dare say if actions speak louder than words, he recommends PF-120s quite vigorously. He owns literally thousands of them.


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

d.frizzell said:


> I thought Michael Bush recommends foundationless?


Good call. I didn't read it all but he seems to be a advocate of foundationless over plastic, thinks they draw it better, faster and prefer it over any foundation:

Question: 

*"Won't the bees mess it up without foundation? 

Answer: Sometimes. But they mess it up sometimes even with wax and even more often with plastic. I've seen no more bad combs doing foundationless than I have using plastic foundation. Some of this appears to be genetic as some hives build good comb even when you do everything wrong. Other hives build messed up comb even when you do everything right and simply repeat the "mistakes" when you remove them. "*


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

Solomon Parker said:


> A lot of people have attempted to go in that direction, but I don't know why.


I will tell you why I consider it a viable option. My thought is that the part of the bees vitality rests in drawing comb and that they inately know what they need in the colony. Or at least at some point they will get back to knowing what they need for comb type/size once we start letting them use their instincts to do so. 



Solomon Parker said:


> That's going to happen no matter what you do. It will happen eventually, or with some hives, exclusively.


It just sounded like you were incinuating that the pf-120's were far and above superior and had this problem occur vitually never. You had said


Solomon Parker said:


> I can assure you PF-1xx frames work far better, producing ugly comb only about 1% of the time.


 So by Michael Bush's quotes on the link I posted above it would appear that foundationless when done right has poorly drawn comb even less than plastic, so less 1% of the time? Well if that is the case it seems the only possible advantage may be a quicker transition from larger cell to the bees natural cell drawn foundationless.



Solomon Parker said:


> It will never be just 'natural.' However, if you want to get the job done, there is only one other option to get regression done in one fell stroke, and it involves even more plastic.


Not saying it (bee keeping) will be natural, but I am saying it will give the bees back more of the cards they need to be successful. This is just my book read opinion, not real experience so take it for what it is worth. I believe this will let the bees be bees.




Solomon Parker said:


> If you were looking for a more natural approach, I'd suggest catching swarms... Nucs would be the second option, a hive already in operation. Steer clear of packages.


Thanks for the advice. This is already where I am leaning if I can find the proper seller (I think I may have found one for nucs). I plan on doing a trap out of some of the bees form a hive in an ash tree on my property too (if they make this winter). I would *love *the chance to catch a swarm. I hope that day comes soon.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Beelosopher said:


> I will tell you why I consider it a viable option. My thought is that the part of the bees vitality rests in drawing comb and that they inately know what they need in the colony. Or at least at some point they will get back to knowing what they need for comb type/size once we start letting them use their instincts to do so.


Yes, I have heard that one before. Here is my conclusion. The bees do not know what they need because they are not living in a natural hive. That's why we get things that are so messed up sometimes.




Beelosopher said:


> It just sounded like you were incinuating that the pf-120's were far and above superior and had this problem occur vitually never.


Yes, but there are concurrently several cases on the docket. I thought we were discussing foundationless. Nothing is 100%.




Beelosopher said:


> I think you had said 1% or less of the time there was poorly drawn comb with pf-1xx products. So by Michael Bush's quotes on the link I posted above it would appear that foundationless when done right has poorly drawn comb even less than plastic, so less 1% of the time? Well if that is the case it seems the only possible advantage may be a quicker transition from larger cell to the bees natural cell drawn foundationless.


It is in fact not the case. I did some tests with foundationless this year and last. I did not get a single frame of any more than about 60% worker comb, which was at or above 4.9mm, possibly averaging about 5.1mm. In this area at least, if you want small cell, you have to do it with foundation, plastic or otherwise. This is why I use PF-120s and wax specifically for worker comb, and foundationless specifically for drone comb. It gives the bees what they need, and more importantly, it gives me what I want. That's what beekeeping is all about.




Beelosopher said:


> This is just my book read opinion, not real experience so take it for what it is worth.


I am speaking from real experience. It is where I choose to speak from, and if not in rare cases, I provide a disclaimer.

I wish you success in your endeavors. It seems we are getting more than the usual number from New York these days. Any idea why that may be?


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

Solomon Parker said:


> Yes, I have heard that one before. Here is my conclusion. The bees do not know what they need because they are not living in a natural hive. That's why we get things that are so messed up sometimes.


I would agree with that. I would also suggest that in time, if given, bees would reclaim some of their instincts if we give more choices back. Would it happen in a season or three? Probably not. But again I have no real experience. As Barry pointed out, for now at least I am only the bee philosopher  



Solomon Parker said:


> It is in fact not the case. I did some tests with foundationless this year and last. I did not get a single frame of any more than about 60% worker comb, which was at or above 4.9mm, possibly averaging about 5.1mm. In this area at least, if you want small cell, you have to do it with foundation, plastic or otherwise. This is why I use PF-120s and wax specifically for worker comb, and foundationless specifically for drone comb. It gives the bees what they need, and more importantly, it gives me what I want. That's what beekeeping is all about.


I think your latter sentences are more correct for what you _personally _want from bee keeping (not sure if that is what bee keeping _should _be about). For me my goals are different. But I am an idealist wanna be hobby bee keeper, not planning to break even on bees so I have that luxury. 

I believe it gives the bees what they need to do your bidding. Perhaps in actuallity it does not give them what they need to become better bees. Perhaps the preponderance of drone comb is the bees trying desparately to flood gene pool with variation. Or just that we have robbed them of their proper instinct to build worker cells and they no longer know what to build. 




Solomon Parker said:


> I am speaking from real experience. It is where I choose to speak from, and if not in rare cases, I provide a disclaimer.


Much appreciated 



Solomon Parker said:


> I wish you success in your endeavors. It seems we are getting more than the usual number from New York these days. Any idea why that may be?


Not sure on this one. I was surprised to see so many myself on the forums (I know there are actually a lot of bee keepers in NY already). 

Please know that I mean well and appreciate the banter. You have done a good thing with your approach to treatment free and I have enjoyed reading your blog/website over the past few weeks.

Best,


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

Solomon do you think I will be ok with the pfs in just the bottom two boxes, and then let them finish the rest of the hive with foundationless?


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

It looks like Mann Lake just stopped selling PF-120s in lots of 30. I just went to place a order and that option is gone. I sent them a email to see if I could still get the the discount.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sfisher said:


> do you think I will be ok with the pfs in just the bottom two boxes, and then let them finish the rest of the hive with foundationless?


I think you would be fine with even less than that. I sure don't have an abundance of SC in my hives. It's scattered here and there. I think Dennis Murrell figured there only needed to be about 20% SC in a hive, typically in the core brood. The bees know how to key off of the different cell sizes as needed.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I find it funny funny Beelosopher that you want to raise bees 'naturally' but would remove them from their natural home and stick them in a box. Don't take that the wrong way, I'm not poking fun or anything but people do fairly amusing things when sticking with their 'ideals'. As far as cell size goes... if you ask the bees if they think they messed up, do you think they would ever say yes?????


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

sfisher said:


> It looks like Mann Lake just stopped selling PF-120s in lots of 30. I just went to place a order and that option is gone. I sent them a email to see if I could still get the the discount.


The "bulk" product code is PF-120_b for orders in multiples of 30.
https://www.mannlakeltd.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=SRCH&Store_Code=mannlake&sType=1&Search=pf-120_b


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

BeeCurious I found it *PF-127 *at the bottom of the page. They changed the layout of the web page and I didnt pay attention.


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

JRG13 said:


> I find it funny funny Beelosopher that you want to raise bees 'naturally' but would remove them from their natural home and stick them in a box. Don't take that the wrong way, I'm not poking fun or anything but people do fairly amusing things when sticking with their 'ideals'. As far as cell size goes... if you ask the bees if they think they messed up, do you think they would ever say yes?????


Sorry you can't wrap your head around this one JRG13. For that I think you are funny. 

It is fairly simply really. Give the bees the most natural approach that I can give them. In this case let them build foundation in the sizes they determine as they would in nature, let them do what bees do. If you feel it necessary to criticize my approach perhaps you have something meaningful to add? 

Believe it or not, your "ideals" are wrapped up in your approach to beekeeping as well.


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