# oxolic acid treatment question



## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

sweatybetty said:


> in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQp9pdAOjdo fat bee man states the the acid will not harm brood or affect the honey. is this true?
> 
> thanks all sb


That's only have true. No harm to brood, bees or queen is true. It affects the uncapped honey but not the cupped honey.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sweatybetty said:


> in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQp9pdAOjdo fat bee man states the the acid will not harm brood or affect the honey. is this true?


The FBM is mistaken, it will not harm brood, bees or brood, however it will affect the uncapped honey. What is not known is the extent that it will affect the uncapped honey. However, the EPA regs state NOT to use it with the honey supers on...............


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

It should not be used when you have honey supers on.

Otherwise, the bees (workers, brood and queens) seem to tolerate it well and it is quite hard on mites. It is most effective when there is no brood (i.e. durng the period between Thanksgiviing and Christmas in the north). It does not kill varroa already under capped brood cells, so they escape the effects of the treatment directly. However you can do a series of OAV treatments to whack down successive "hatches" of the varroa during the short periods they live outside the pupal cells on the worker and nurse bees (the phoretic stage of the mites' life). The current folk-wisdom for a non-broodless period treatment is four treatments, five days apart. I haven't worked through the bee-math on this for myself, yet, but that's what people seem to be doing. I would not expect a single( or even double) treatment to be effective against mites when the bees have brood. I am currently doing a series of four for a friend's hive (third treatment done yesterday) and still seeing a couple of hundred dead mites after each one. 

OA vaporization is different from OA dribble. See Randy Oliver's website, www.scientificbeekeeping.com 
for detailed info about both.

If you do OAV, please wear the correct mask (a correctly fitted half-face respirator with acid gas cartridges) and eye protetction. The "smoke" from the process is not always completely contained within the hive (it leaks out of cracks between boxes, for instance) and it is very dangerous for humans to breathe. Be careful, and work safe.

Enj.


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## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

I gotta admit though. Im pretty impressed. Second the prior comments on using the correct respirator and supers. No need to mess around with your health or honey.
Did a mite count last wednesday (5 days ago) and found a total of 8 mites. Thought that was pretty good and decided to make this my test hive. Got my Varrox from snl Friday, installed escape boards to empty the supers, and did a treatment last night (Saturday) after blocking the supers with some cardboard signage. Checked the test hive this morning and gave up counting at 89! Obviously, even with good mite count numbers one can be missing potential problems brewing. Gonna do a 4 X 5 days treatment using the same procedure and hope to knock them down again in the Autumn.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I am just speculating out loud . . . Anyone try OAVing the mites every 5 days until they get hardly any mites falling?

In other words, if you OAV 'em, and you get a large mite drop, they could use another gassing.

After that, just OAV once a year when the hive is broodless. Very easy and mites are no longer a problem.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

shinbone said:


> I am just speculating out loud . . . Anyone try OAVing the mites every 5 days until they get hardly any mites falling?
> In other words, if you OAV 'em, and you get a large mite drop, they could use another gassing.
> After that, just OAV once a year when the hive is broodless. Very easy and mites are no longer a problem.


I'm sure you could OAV them to .......... death (thus no mites).....But seriously, OAV is best served during a brooding down or brood-less period. You'll always have mites as long as bees from other hives can enter yours. 
What you suggest is best performed when the supers are removed and the mites are out-breeding the bees.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

SNL - Thanks for the reply.

Put another way, for a hive with brood, if it is okay to OAV the hive 4 times, 5 days apart, would it be okay to OAV 5 times at the same interval, and, if so, would it still kill a substantial number of mites, i.e. would that 5th treatment be worth the time/effort/risk to the bees?

And if the 5th treatment is not harmful but still productive, what about doing a 6th treatment on the same schedule? And, a 7th treatment? Etc? 

At what point do the negatives of treating (which are pretty minor, in my experience) start to outweigh the benefits? Again, for a hive with brood.

Just curious.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

shinbone said:


> SNL - Thanks for the reply. Put another way, for a hive with brood, if it is okay to OAV the hive 4 times, 5 days apart, would it be okay to OAV 5 times at the same interval, and, if so, would it still kill a substantial number of mites, i.e. would that 5th treatment be worth the time/effort/risk to the bees? And if the 5th treatment is not harmful but still productive, what about doing a 6th treatment on the same schedule? And, a 7th treatment? Etc? At what point do the negatives of treating (which are pretty minor, in my experience) start to outweigh the benefits? Again, for a hive with brood. Just curious.


I've treated 4 times at 5-7 day intervals with no apparent problems. However, at some point treatment during a brooding period must stop to place supers. I can't tell you at what point the treatment outweighs the negatives as I've never OAV'd that many times or have found others that have done so. Even if more treatments w/o supers does no apparent harm, it is very tiring and there are better treatments during a brood period.


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## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

From everything I've been reading it looks like 4 treatments really pushes the point of diminishing returns. Shocked at how many dead mites I found this morning as part of the first 48 hour kill. Now wishing I had done it sooner prior to putting on the supers and having to spend time managing clearing them out/blocking them off, etc.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

DirtyLittleSecret said:


> Shocked at how many dead mites I found this morning as part of the first 48 hour kill.


Yup. OAV hammers the mites. I never seen any harm to the bees, either. I have been monitoring a sticky board for mites on a hive that received on OAV treatment in November, and no mites have fallen in 6 days. Good stuff.


I OAV my hives once a year when broodless. So, I most likely will not have an opportunity to see if 5 treatments with brood has any benefits. Like I said, I was just curious.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

I just ordered a Varrox.
The website says to use one gram per deep hive body. Is that one gram of dry powder or do you mix it with water? Also, how many teaspoons is a gram of OA? Thanks


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

OA comes in a crystallized form. It has the consistency of table salt. You use it as such. One gram is almost a 1/4 teaspoon. One uses a gram per brood chamber, so with a two brood chamber hive, 1/2 teaspoonful. The vaporizer comes with full instructions and a Q and A document.


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## sweatybetty (Apr 24, 2015)

hello all. i did my first treatment this am before it got warm enough for the bees to leave the hive. all went very well, i guess.
here is what i came up with as a "vaporizer". this is 1/2" copper tubing that is brazed with a type of silver solder that is used in refrigeration systems, so the propane torch shouldnt melt it.
i fill the cap with the acid, put the cap on, then tap the 90* bend on something to get the acid into the bend, then heat it with a small propane torch. works very well, as long as there is nothing flammable around the hive


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

sweatybetty said:


> hello all. i did my first treatment this am before it got warm enough for the bees to leave the hive. all went very well, i guess.
> here is what i came up with as a "vaporizer". this is 1/2" copper tubing that is brazed with a type of silver solder that is used in refrigeration systems, so the propane torch shouldnt melt it.
> i fill the cap with the acid, put the cap on, then tap the 90* bend on something to get the acid into the bend, then heat it with a small propane torch. works very well, as long as there is nothing flammable around the hive
> 
> ...


Check your pipe, if there is white powder left, it is ash and you overheated the acid. There always some smoke coming out but you destroyed the acid.


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## sweatybetty (Apr 24, 2015)

thank you, that is good to know.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Is a double stacked 5 frame nuc (10 deep frames) treated the same way as a 10 frame deep? I know it's the same amount of frames, but with the width difference of the nucs I'm unsure about the dosage.


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