# Why is there so much writing (questions + threads) about how to stop or fix swarming?



## WindowBee (8 mo ago)

The asnwere to your question is quiet simple.
People want simle tips without understanding roots of the problems. When they are asking about swarm, they hope someone tell them something easy and extraordinary as an one simple tip. Other side of the quest you are asking is that people want to say something, and what is it? The easiest topic and many replays. If you asking something difficult there is no social aplause …. and many replays. People mostly ignor it.
I guess this situation take places many times not only in matter of beekeeping.

btw good in this is that they can conversate and knowing each other like with this post 

Again Sorry for grammar mistakes if there are any.. ) hope this is unerstandable.
Christopher


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

Well, keep in mind that many will wonder why you are opening this post since from their perspective it is an obvious and easy question to answer. Put this way maybe it will help you to answer your question.


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## WindowBee (8 mo ago)

… and forum exists just for asking ! And share 🤗


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

to answer your question (since that is one of the main functions of a forum), the oval hole in inner covers was originally used to instal a porter style bee escape to clear honey supers. then enough beeks found it necessary to provide upper ventilation via a notch in the inner cover. so even though in some cases the hole may no longer be oval to accept the porter bee escape, it is still there for ventilation.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

SeaCucumber said:


> A lot of beekeeping makes no sense. Experts tell you to do opposite things.


I would tend to disagree with your above statement.

most of the the beekeeping I do makes sense. its rare I get a situation I do not understand.

as far as the "experts" telling you opposite things, that is not that difficult to grasp either.
either they are not an expert, or the "thing" they talk about is in the do not care column. meaning you can do either and have similar results. Mix in the locality and in many cases the answer can be different.

Tend to agree with WindowBee, folks are looking for the magic bullet, which does not often exist.

Experience will tend to resolve most of the thing keepers do not understand.
finding it online is a hit or miss endeavor. As the experts do not always bubble to the surface.

GG


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Probably because there are many ways to "skin a cat" and beekeepers can be very inventive. 

The swarm issue has been answered many times and yet there is always someone who does things just a little differently. Most people are searching for those who's methods fit within their particular area, lifestyle or abilities. 

New methods come up all the time but before the internet people did what they were taught just because it was always done a particular way. 

Rules change but bees don't follow them anyway, so people like to search out those small nuggets of swarm manipulation that can make the work easier and drop those that become redundant.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Swarm prevention questions and answers, all the questions are easily answered but prevention takes a lot of work in the bee yard. everybody is trying to find an easier way including me. Most experts tell me that one needs bees that do not swarm, bees that are bred for zero swarm traits, lots of folks have them but I can't seem to find any. I have found that the primary goal of a strong healthy colony is to reproduce in the spring flow. Now many beekeepers tell me that their bees don't swarm but are always asking me for queens in the summer as their colonies are queen less. Most swarms take about 10 from start to finish and are then in the trees, because you don't see it happen does not mean it did not. Now Gilbert Doolittle talked about bees getting swarm fever and it appears to me that bees somehow get their jollies from swarming which they don't get from splits and nuc creations and it shows as splits and nucs do not draw comb and forage anywhere near as well as a swarm will. So lets end with another question, how do we make a split or nuc believe that they have actually swarmed.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

Gray Goose said:


> as far as the "experts" telling you opposite things, that is not that difficult to grasp either.


most peoples 'experts' have clean beesuits, white wax, and shiny boxes. youtubes full of it.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

SeaCucumber said:


> "How do you stop swarming?" is the easiest beekeeping question to answer. There are many tutorials, and there's consensus.


What's the answer and consensus?


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

velacreations said:


> What's the answer and consensus?


Check for cells on every frame, in every hive, every week. If you are in the southeastern United States, you only have to do this for 9 months of the year. Easy-peasy. <sarcasm>


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I don't know about consensus, but the easiest way to avoid swarms is to dump your bees and raise flies, they are easy to raise but unfortunately don't make honey


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

COAL REAPER said:


> to answer your question (since that is one of the main functions of a forum), the oval hole in inner covers was originally used to instal a porter style bee escape to clear honey supers. then enough beeks found it necessary to provide upper ventilation via a notch in the inner cover. so even though in some cases the hole may no longer be oval to accept the porter bee escape, it is still there for ventilation.


Exactly.
If it ain't broke, why fix it?

Alex


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Johno said, because you don't see it happen does not mean it did not. 

Alex


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

psm1212 said:


> Check for cells on every frame, in every hive, every week. If you are in the southeastern United States, you only have to do this for 9 months of the year. Easy-peasy. <sarcasm>




and even then, 1/2 of them still end up in the trees


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

velacreations said:


> What's the answer and consensus?


I added that to my first post. I didn't want to because we need to keep this site DRY (don't repeat yourself).

I don't want people writing about inner covers in this thread. The ones I've seen have a rim on both sides.

The problem with the hole is that feeding isn't explained well. When you use an inverted feeder, the inner cover is exposed. The rim could direct rain in the hole. If the notch is up, you block the top entrance when feeding. If its down, bee space might not be great. You could add a box and an outer cover for rain. Then, you need another entrance to let bees out of that.


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## Tumbleweed (Mar 17, 2021)

It’s just postin’


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Geesh, all you have to do is make sure they have space in the broodnest? Tell that to my swarm if you see them.
Swarm prevention is not simple and easy and a method that works for you doesn't work for everyone or every hive. 
A few years ago at a beekeeper seminar, I spoke with an experienced beekeeper (40 years) who told me that those that say their hives don't swarm are lying, or are splitting constantly to sell nucs and are lying a little less. J


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

johno said:


> So lets end with another question, how do we make a split or nuc believe that they have actually swarmed.


Shook swarm? She talks about it at around 45:13 during the question part.
Reading a hIve --- Kirsten Traynor


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I have done many shook swarms but they don't touch a real swarm for productivity.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

COAL REAPER said:


> the oval hole in inner covers was originally used to instal a porter style bee escape to clear honey supers


And will *not *fit a Rapid feeder!


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

SeaCucumber said:


> I added that to my first post. I didn't want to because we need to keep this site DRY (don't repeat yourself).
> 
> I don't want people writing about inner covers in this thread. The ones I've seen have a rim on both sides.
> 
> The problem with the hole is that feeding isn't explained well. When you use an inverted feeder, the inner cover is exposed. The rim could direct rain in the hole. If the notch is up, you block the top entrance when feeding. If its down, bee space might not be great. You could add a box and an outer cover for rain. Then, you need another entrance to let bees out of that.


where did you come from dude? nothing you bring to this site is productive.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

SeaCucumber said:


> I don't want people writing about inner covers in this thread. The ones I've seen have a rim on both sides.
> 
> The problem with the hole is that feeding isn't explained well. When you use an inverted feeder, the inner cover is exposed. The rim could direct rain in the hole. If the notch is up, you block the top entrance when feeding. If its down, bee space might not be great. You could add a box and an outer cover for rain. Then, you need another entrance to let bees out of that.


My cloth covers do not have any of those confusing features....

to Johno's ?
catch a swarm and put it in a NUC box, it then will act like a swarm.

GG


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Gray goose the only problem is that I would rather take them out of the box than out of the trees.


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## Bane (Apr 15, 2019)

COAL REAPER said:


> to answer your question (since that is one of the main functions of a forum), the oval hole in inner covers was originally used to instal a porter style bee escape to clear honey supers. then enough beeks found it necessary to provide upper ventilation via a notch in the inner cover. so even though in some cases the hole may no longer be oval to accept the porter bee escape, it is still there for ventilation.


considering that a typical telescoping lid sits square on the innner cover, the hole for ventilation makes no sense at all . .


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

Keep the inner cover stuff to this thread. I wrote about it there in 2014 and 2022.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

johno said:


> Gray goose the only problem is that I would rather take them out of the box than out of the trees.


well then a shook swarm is likely going to be as close as you get to the real deal.
or get better at trapping them.

good luck with what ever choice you pick.

GG


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

Do top entrances stop swarming? Here's a thread about that.

Assume the following to rule out common solutions.

They've been getting more than enough space. Every box has at least 3 empty frames. One empty frame is in the middle of each box. This might be excessive.
Queens are bred for no swarming.
You requeen every year.
You get swarming.
Equal size top and bottom entrances should be tested. Does some top and bottom entrance size combination lower swarming?

I haven't read the thread yet. Its about proving the following theory.

Theory:
Having a big enough top entrance and possibly a bottom entrance lowers swarming.



Michael Bush said:


> Entrances have little to nothing to do with swarming.


On their website, Bush says the opposite.
"Prevention: a top entrance will give foragers a way in without going through the brood nest.
So basically, if you keep supers on and provide ventilation you can prevent an overcrowding swarm."

From what others say, the following facts are probably true.

You get more brood on top and less honey with a top entrance. This could be an advantage when you are trying to maximize brood.
You get brood near entrances. If so, equal top and bottom entrances might be good when you want brood.
These threads make me think that.
moldable or chewable entrance reducers
Poll: entrance vertical location (top, bottom) and honey
What top and bottom entrance areas do your bees prefer?


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

COAL REAPER said:


> where did you come from dude? nothing you bring to this site is productive.


A harsh comment - but one I agree with. I fail to understand the underlying motivation behind the starting of this thread - it appears to be simply that of negative criticism, rather than trying to assist people deal with the problem of swarming.

Swarming wasn't always considered to be a problem of course, way back in time it was the only known way of making increase, and so one job of the beekeeper was to arrest the swarm and re-house it. Then, at the beginning of the era of modern beekeeping, techniques for generating 'artificial swarms' were developed, and then a phenomenon which was once considered useful - even essential - suddenly became undesirable and something to be prevented.

Demuth in particular wrote extensively about the phenomenon of swarming, and the conditions under which it occurs, but - as far as I know - no-one has ever conclusively demonstrated the exact cause (or causes) of this behaviour. Certainly, over-crowding is associated with swarming, but is that due to the congestion, over-heating, or an imbalance in the number of nurse bees vs. foragers which all occur at the same time ?

It's all very well to provide the Queen with extra room in which to lay - which certainly* can* work - but is this actually tackling the root cause, or simply delaying the stimulus (whatever that may be) until another day ?

There are indeed opposite procedures which both appear to work equally well. One is to *increase* the comb space for the queen to lay in. The other is - once an adequate forager force has been generated - to *reduce* the amount of laying space in order that the colony size never reaches that size threshold necessary for swarming to take place, so that essentially the colony maintains the same brood size as a nucleus colony (which normally do not swarm), but with the forager force of a full-sized colony, in order that a honey harvest be obtained.

All such empirically-determined procedures demonstrate however, is that we still do not understand the core underlying principle(s) which trigger the swarming impulse.
LJ


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