# Frame filling "machine" update



## challenger

Several months ago I posted here about designing/building a system for filling frames of comb with sugar syrup.
My specific goal was to replicate a system a Canadian beekeeper has videos of but in a much more affordable design. 
I am very pleased to be able to say that I've finished this build and I am thrilled with how it operates.
PLEASE do not comment here with feedback consisting of things like, "why do you need to do this when what I do works so well" or "I've been using thus & such a method for years and it works for me"
All to often beekeepers are so set in their ways and believe their way sis the best & only way and I am tired of hearing it so this post is simply for those that wish to know about what I did to make this frame filler.
It took a lot of time on & off but I can tell you why I think this will be the way I am going to feed my bees from now on:
It is super fast-20 deep frames in less than 10 minutes including filling the vat, filling 20 frames and flushing the system. This does not include mixing and/or warming the syrup. Warm syrup is required for the system I built.
It is a nearly no mess system (although I did have a few extremely messy episodes during R & D)
It allows me to put warm frames of syrup directly into the hive.
It allows frames to be left in the hive so the bees can use it for storing honey they bring in or use at as brood comb.
The following is a description of the parts & their use/placement:
1-Utility tub/sink from the local Big box store or, even better, from a cheaper source. This is the "tank" and is used for filling the frames and as the supply source for the pump.
1-#6 bronze gear pump. This is the largest size gear pump that is still considered, "Light Duty" according to the manufacturers I consulted with. Anything larger gets into a much more costly pump and requires much more power to run plus it would be physically larger & heavier. Cost for mine was $250.00 used. These pumps have 1" inlet/outlet ports.
1-3/4 hp minimum 1725 RPM electric motor. I had mine laying around so it was free. I was concerned that motor would be too small but it works perfectly so long as I am using syrup that is at least 80*F.
1-pair pillow block bearings for coupling shaft-$20-30.00
1-flex coupling for coupling shaft $20.00
1-pulley shaft. This is used to couple the pump to a pulley for RPM reduction. The pump will need to run about 7-900 RPM depending on the temperature of the syrup. Again I had mine laying around. I also have a fairly complete machine shop which helped tremendously but is certainly not required as everything is available from suppliers in a ready to use form (other than aligning the pump & pulley shaft which will take some creativity)
1-3" pulley with bore size matching the motor $5.00
1-6" pulley with bore matching the pump shaft/pulley shaft $6.00
1-"V" belt $4.00
1- heavy metal base with ribbing for rigidity. To be determined on an individual basis
1-Bracket system to allow precise alignment of the shaft the couples the pulley with the pump. I made mine out of 3"X3"X1/4" aluminum angle material. I used one section bolted to the base plate so one leg is flat on the base and the other leg is vertical and a second section with a leg against the vertical leg of the first section and the other leg horizontal which has teh two pillow block shaft bearings sitting on it. Between the two angle brackets there is a "Z" shape. There needs to be a provision made where the top section can be pricisely adjusted up/down for horizontal alignment of the pump shaft & the pulley shaft AND another provision made so the pillow bearing blocks can be adjusted axially so the pulley shaft aligns with the pump
axially as well. The flex couplings will allow a certain amount of misalignment but I did a ton of research on this and the better the alignment is the longer the pump seal will last. Poor alignment will mean a trashed pump in short order. This is likely the most challenging part of the build.
I placed the pump/motor/shaft etc on a 1/8" steel plate and then added 2 pieces of 1/8" wall 2"X2" aluminum square tube bolted the length of the plate for rigidiity because the belt tension will pull the shaft bracket down if the plate is not rigid enough.
This pump system sits directly under my tub/vat/tank. I plumbed the tub drain directly to the pump input using 1-1/2" pvc with 3 90* elbows, a detachable coupling and a drain valve.
From the pump output I plumbed up to my two sprays bars using 1-1/4" PVC, another detachable coupling, another drain valve and 2 45* elbows leading up to a valve, a "T" connection and my two spray bars that go through a hole in the tub on both sides. The spray bars are 1" pvc with 70 3/32" holes drilled down the legth of each bar. The two spray bars point toward each other as the liquid is being pumped and I simply dip the frames between these bars and the comb fills up almost completely.
I have empty frames in deep boxes on the left and I fill them and place them in plastic totes on the right side of the tub. With the totes places right next to the tub there is nowhere for drops to fall other than in the tub.
I know this is not the clearest explanation of this system but hopefully anyone that is interested in building this type of system will get the idea.
It is not a turn key set of components and will require some outside assistance is one is not well equipped and attention in the area of shaft alignment and mounting base is very important.

Please feel free to ask questions but please don't throw stones. I know this setup is a good amount of work and costs more than a garden sprayer, can with holes etc. It is something I wanted to try and although I thought it would become just a pile of parts I am very happy with the outcome and the cost -vs- return,
Thanks
Howard

[URL="







[/URL]

[URL="http://







[/URL]

[URL="http://







[/URL]


----------



## Ian

good deal challenger!
that'll fill those frames quick!


----------



## Fishman43

Looks like you had some fun thinking through and building this system!


----------



## RayMarler

I think it's a great idea and job. The finished product looks and sounds like a very well working item, and feeding bees in that manner sounds like a very good idea to me, as I'm just a little beek with not many hives.


----------



## Flyer Jim

I like it! Do you heat your syrup, if so how? :scratch:


----------



## tommyt

YouTube 
YouTube 
YouTube 
YouTube 

I'd like to see it up and runnin


----------



## cerezha

Could you explain the principle,how it works? You fill up the sink with warm syrup and dip frames in it or what? How syrup is forced inside the cells? I would imagine that there were bunch of air bubbles in the comb.


----------



## KPeacock

it looks like the syrup is pumped up through the two horizontal tubes. I suspect a number of drilled holes that squirt the fluid out thus filling both sides of the frame at the same time.


----------



## Wisnewbee

That is a fantastic setup. Ingenious design. 

Wisnewbee


----------



## beesohappy

I'm with tommy- YOUTUBE PLEASE


----------



## Mbeck

Looks good.

How thick is the syrup you use?
Can you fill frames and transport? Do they leak a lot once full?


----------



## jrbbees

I think you have done a great design and brought it to reality.
Good Job.

Consider: Move the pipes forward towards the front where you stand. To the back fix a holder that will hold 3 frames. 
Then dip first, set in up to drip.
Dip second, set with first to drip
dip third, set with first and second, remove first and set in box for transport to hives.
Just an idea. Again, Great job.


----------



## Mr.Beeman

One similar.


----------



## jmgi

I'm just wondering if the syrup pressure may be a bit too high, seems like it would fill the combs alright, but then wash it back out somewhat leading to many partially filled cells. John


----------



## Acebird

Good job Howard. It appears to work fairly well. 
The goal is to remove the air from the cells and replace it with syrup.
Did you try or anyone else during your R&D putting the sprayers closer together (just about a frame width) and submerged like a whirl pool bath? The jets should drive out the air and replace it with syrup without splashing more air back into the cells. This is just a hunch. I could be wrong.


----------



## gmcharlie

Sweet! I was just at Rons place this weekend and looked at his system, and was figuring out how to make one of my own. I was going to use vacuum, but this thing makes it look so sweet!. How are you heating the syrup???


----------



## BeeCurious

Here's another version : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFD4LKJrkrE

http://www.frenchbeefarm.com/remplisseur-de-cadres-2/


----------



## dixiebooks

Just wondering...How do you keep from making a big mess with syrup dripping everywhere? -js


----------



## JRG13

ideally, I would envision bigger sink so u could hang the frames for a few minutes to drip dry.


----------



## Acebird

The sink doesn't need to be bigger. All you need is a drip pan and a rack where one operator can fill the frames and put them on a rack and another operator can take them off the rack. If the first operator gets about 10 frames ahead of the second operator the frames would have a chance to drip clean.
Why do the fill nozzles have to be in the middle? The closer they are to the operator dunking the more ergonomic the operation will be.


----------



## beeware10

walter kelly had this system back in the 70's. never was very popular because of robbing problems that it caused.


----------



## FlowerPlanter

This looks like a good idea.

You might add some kind of frame holder/hangers in the sink or even above the sink on the opposite side you will be working from. Fill your frame let it hang and drip dry while you fill the next one. That way you don’t spend time/energy shaking off the excess drops. Also will leave more sugar water in the sink instead of the floor.


----------



## challenger

I spent an hour last PM replying to the comments & questions here and sawthus AM my post isn't here???
Anyway thanks for all the feedback. I'll try to answer specific questions this PM but after wasting an entire hour yesterday doing just that & seeing my effort ended up floating around in cyberspace is a downer.
My final version should be on YouTube. I left my computer downloading the video last night & have not seen if it went up..the other unit someone posted is my prototype.
I got this idea from the French Bee Farm filling unit & adapted the concept to my scale/budget.
Thanks
Howard


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

challenger said:


> I spent an hour last PM replying to the comments & questions here and sawthus AM my post isn't here???


If you expect to put a lot of time/effort into writing a post, you can take precautions against "oops" situations like this. One way is to compose your reply in an offline editor such as Notepad, Word, etc, then paste the finished result into your Beesource message. Periodically save your Word document just in case you have an unexpected computer problem. 

Another alternative is to "post" a reply before you have finished everything you want to say. Then "Edit" your post to add more. You can check that each part of your message is successfully posted before you continue.


----------



## Barry

Inactivity after 30 minutes will get up "bumped" as well. Composing a post is not considered activity. To avoid getting bumped and losing content from composing a post, make sure you check "Remember Me?" when logging on.


----------



## Michael Bush

>If you expect to put a lot of time/effort into writing a post, you can take precautions against "oops" situations like this

I often don't realize how much effort I am going to put into it until it has grown quite large and then something crashes... but sometimes I realize it and copy it into something else...


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

If you periodically use the "_Preview_" button/function I'm confident that you will reset the 30 minute "no activity" clock _Barry _referred to. _Preview _doesn't create a post viewable to others, but it does show you what your finished post will look like. Very handy to catch formatting errors, see what quotes _actually _look like, or identify links that don't get automatically activated.

If the _Preview _button isn't visible, click the "_Go Advanced_" button to find _Preview_.


----------



## rweakley

what is your youtube channel?


----------



## challenger

I didn't realize there was a time out. I certainly ended up composting the message.
I left my laptop on overnight so the video would download so I am hoping there is an error still remaining on the Beesource tab.
YouTube loaded at, " Howardtoob"
Thanks


----------



## beesohappy

Challenger_ Thank you for detailed post. I really appreciate the time you put into sharing your creation. I would drop the full frames into hive bodies and pack them out to the yard. If dripping is a concern then sit the hive body on a tub or over a tub and the extra could be poured back into the tank.

As far as robbing I can't see why that would increase the robbing unless your using honey b healthy or something like it. Maybe someone could tell me what would make them do it.

Does the syrup need to be heated? I would think it would be fine. 

Again thank you for the ideas to me it makes the most sense out of all the feeder I've seen out there. 

I thought of another question....do the bees need to suck up the sugar water like nectar so if can be ripened like honey or do the bees eat it as is?


----------



## Michael Bush

Pretty cool. So is this 2:1 syrup? Or something thinner or thicker?


----------



## AstroBee

Great video and very cool machine. Why do you have it partially wrapped with plastic wrap? Is there a lot of splashing?


----------



## challenger

Fishman43 said:


> Looks like you had some fun thinking through and building this system!


Yes some fun-some frustration. I enjoy tinkering. Thanks



RayMarler said:


> I think it's a great idea and job. The finished product looks and sounds like a very well working item, and feeding bees in that manner sounds like a very good idea to me, as I'm just a little beek with not many hives.


As you can imagine I also think it is a great way to easily introduce feed to the bees. Often the syrup is warm after filling and opening a hive, removing empty comb & replacing with warm frames of syrup is quick & doesn't result in a cold hive. I did some hives and it was about 60 degrees out and starting to get late. I discovered many that were light and added 15 frames to a few hives.
I would think something like this would be even better for a large apiary or even a commercial pollinator but I am not either of those and I imagine they have their ways. Thanks



Flyer Jim said:


> I like it! Do you heat your syrup, if so how? :scratch:





cerezha said:


> Could you explain the principle,how it works? You fill up the sink with warm syrup and dip frames in it or what? How syrup is forced inside the cells? I would imagine that there were bunch of air bubbles in the comb.





Wisnewbee said:


> That is a fantastic setup. Ingenious design.
> 
> Wisnewbee


Thank you. For the record I didn't come up with the idea. I got it from a video on French Bee Farm site. I adapted it to my budget, needs & wants. I tried contacting them a while back but didn't get e return email. I wanted to ask what pump they used. 



Mbeck said:


> Looks good.
> 
> How thick is the syrup you use?
> Can you fill frames and transport? Do they leak a lot once full?


The syrup is 2:1 but I get mine from a place in Charlotte, NC already mixed and it is a saturated solution with 66% sugar solids. They sell it in bulk to all sorts of industries and my son in at school there so I've hit him & his friends up for shuttling buckets. It is $7.00 for 5 gallons which is 1/3 the price I've been able to get the cheapest sugar for. Mixing the syrup is a huge hassle and is always messy. The 2:1 is especially so IMO because of the hot water required and the constant stirring. This ready made stuff is the ultimate. They also sell bulk HFCS but it is more $ and I'd rather feed sugar even if it was more $.
I filled frames and transported 12 in a tote to a friends apiary. The frames drain off in the tote and the excess syrup at the bottom is poured into a container and reused. The tote gets a bit sticky so a wet rag is always handy. This goes for me anytime I mess with syrup because a tiny bit on my hand gets transmitted to anything I touch so I just try and keep this at zero.
Thanks



Mr.Beeman said:


> One similar.


That is my prototype-see the black totes? 



jmgi said:


> I'm just wondering if the syrup pressure may be a bit too high, seems like it would fill the combs alright, but then wash it back out somewhat leading to many partially filled cells. John


When I did the first wet test I used water and I was really disappointed because the spraying water was sending droplets outside the tub. I thought I'd just spent a great deal of time creating another messy way to feed. The water was also doing as you mentioned to a small degree. I honestly was going to bag the idea but a friend wanted to see it and I decided to run syrup which was the ticket. It is heavier and flows slower & this combination makes for literally no mess coming out of the spray bars plus it goes in the cells and doesn't come out except for excess. Thanks



Acebird said:


> Good job Howard. It appears to work fairly well.
> The goal is to remove the air from the cells and replace it with syrup.
> Did you try or anyone else during your R&D putting the sprayers closer together (just about a frame width) and submerged like a whirl pool bath? The jets should drive out the air and replace it with syrup without splashing more air back into the cells. This is just a hunch. I could be wrong.


I didn't consider this method of underwater jetting but I would think that a much higher pressure would be required to create streams with enough velocity to bridge a gap of syrup & still displace the air in the cells. This ability of the cells to hold on to what is in them, weather it be honey or air, is a huge stumbling block in any comb filling method. I am not an engineer but I spoke with more than a few while building this. I thought I could find a way to calculate the required flow, pressure, velocity etc. by crunching some numbers using formulas popular in the pumping industry but that was not the case-far from it in fact. One thing that several engineers told me is that figuring this and that for a specific application gets you in the ball park. From there it is trial & error. I am sure there are other ways to pump streams into comb but I chose this one and I am glad I didn't go another route after the initial water test failure. Thanks



gmcharlie said:


> Sweet! I was just at Rons place this weekend and looked at his system, and was figuring out how to make one of my own. I was going to use vacuum, but this thing makes it look so sweet!. How are you heating the syrup???


A vacuum! I played with that idea 2 years ago and I am still convinced it would work perfectly. My vacuum chamber was inadequate and leaked vacuum. I was able to get the frames that I placed in it 1/2 full but no more. I made a crappy chamber out of a 10- frame deep wrapped in rubber membrane then another mayer of 3/4" wood and wrapped again with plastic. I used a clear plexiglass lid with a grate under it for support. I had fittings, gauges, a really good HVAC vacuum etc and after several attempts to stop the thing from leaking I took it outside and threw it as far as I could. I was steaming mad and it went maybe 20 yards smashed on the ground and didn't suffer a single ding. It was stout but not air tight. I put it in the dumpster. After using this system I am not looking back at the vacuum. I think filling & emptying a vacuum chamber would make more of a mess than this thing. I am using a basic propane burner with a large pot to heat up the syrup. Thanks



BeeCurious said:


> Here's another version : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFD4LKJrkrE
> 
> http://www.frenchbeefarm.com/remplisseur-de-cadres-2/


Yup-this was my inspiration. Check out the gasoline engine? I don't know what pump they used but the "light duty" gear pump I run has a maximum of 1725 RPM. With the thick syrup it needs to run between 6-900 depending on temperature. If I had to guess I would say they are using an entirely different pump & are pumping 1:1 syrup which a lot of pumps can handle. I chose a gear pump because they handle super thick material. Thanks



dixiebooks said:


> Just wondering...How do you keep from making a big mess with syrup dripping everywhere? -js


It doesn't drip everywhere. If it did I would put it in the round file with many of my other "projects" The spray bars are inside the tub and are pointing slightly downward in the manner that the cells are tilted 15*. Take a dry frame from the left side, dip in between the spray bars a couple of times, lift it out, do a couple of up & down motions to get rid of most of the run off and end with a down motion moving to the right where the tote is. A little timing of the movement and zero drips. If I get a few drips it lands on the stretch wrap that is covering the spray bar inlet plumbing. Thanks



JRG13 said:


> ideally, I would envision bigger sink so u could hang the frames for a few minutes to drip dry.


Maybe but for me having a drain rack is a good place for me to bump a frame of syrup and have it tumble on to the floor=mess & bad words. It is just so easy to move a filled frame to the tote on the right side. I like the simplicity because.........well.........I AM simple. Sure you can make all kinds of "extras" but I ant to take it down & store it when I am done. More stuff=more space & my shop looks like a crazy person works in it as it is. Thanks



beeware10 said:


> walter kelly had this system back in the 70's. never was very popular because of robbing problems that it caused.


Great point! Robbing would be a very large problem. So far I've filled during cold or rainy weather. I can roll down my shop door to keep the bees from getting a taste if need be. I can imagine the number of bees that would be around if it took a long time to do this or one was careless. being able to get the frames filled quickly and placed into a tote with a lid plus cleaning up right away is a must. When I am done filling I drain the excess syrup into a bucket using the drain valve I put on the supply side, fill the tub with warm water, watch the drain hose to see water coming out instead of syrup and when this happens I just take the drain house from outside and bring it to the tub and rinse the whole system out. I'll just run & recycle the warm water to rinse the inside of the tub & spray bars off so no bees come calling. Then I take off the shrink wrap & throw it away. Final thing is emptying the rinse water-done. Thanks



FlowerPlanter said:


> This looks like a good idea.
> 
> You might add some kind of frame holder/hangers in the sink or even above the sink on the opposite side you will be working from. Fill your frame let it hang and drip to dry while you fill the next one. That way you don’t spend time/energy shaking off the excess drops. Also will leave more sugar water in the sink instead of the floor.


No syrup on the floor. Well maybe 5 drops with 20 frames. I don't shake off the frames-that would get messy. Just up & down & into the tote. Honestly if this was a messy operation I wouldn't have posted it. There is a guy in the youtube video who brought the frames I was filling. He also brought another friend who is starting this year keeping bees (sucker-I tried to talk him out of it) and both will attest to how this sytem is nearly drip free. It is by far the least messy method of filling frames that I've tried and it fills them super fast and nearly full if the comb is in good shape.

I am not trying to sell this system or idea. Just thought I would show anyone that might find it interesting. I have no plans to sell or dreams of marketing this thing.

Another thing that I found as a side benefit was using my home made HBH with this system. The HBH formula, home made or store bought, uses essential oils & I've found them difficult to keep emulsified in the syrup. If it separates out any bees that come into contact with some of these oils are going to die. Mixing it with the spraying action guarantees there won't be a concentration in the syrup that would harm the bees.
Another thing is medication. It would be super easy to include any water soluble medication in the syrup and give the bees the medication in a frame(s) of syrup. I've never used these so I don't know if it is a great way to administer medication such as Terramycin but I've heard there are some meds that are difficult to mix?

Thanks all,
Howard
Hampstead, NC


----------



## jean-marc

I have such a frame filler. As pointed out earlier W. Kelley had such a unit for sale in the 70's. Beemaid (Canadian beekeeping co-operative) also sold those for awhile. I believe I have one of those models. They are ok on an emergency feeding system. The nice thing about Howardès is he is using an electric motor vrsus the gas powered one I have on my machine. The noise from that machine is irritating. Warm syrup is way better. I do not have a system where I can warm a large quantity of syrup. I find this type of system requires a lot of cleaning to keep the manifold clean. A lot of wax particles tend to accumulate and partially block the holes then next thing you know the syrup is spraying you or is ending up on the floor.

For commercial guys it is just easier to fill a frame feeder. This system is ok for hives that are not especially strong and would have trouble taking syrup because they are sorta weak and temperatures are cool yet they need feed.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Acebird

challenger said:


> I didn't consider this method of underwater jetting but I would think that a much higher pressure would be required to create streams with enough velocity to bridge a gap of syrup & still displace the air in the cells.


Think about a light bulb where the light on a surface is the square of the distance. If you move the two nozzles to where you can just fit the frame between you will not need as much pressure as you think. Secondly you will control the distance so it is more symmetrical and then you can skip flipping the frame around like was shown in the video. Thirdly, there should be no splash so the tank can be hugely smaller. What do they call that a oxymoron?

It might seem silly but the shorter you can make the repetitive motion the better unless you are only going to do ten frames.

You can hirer an operator for less then 10 bucks an hour but a workman's comp case bumps that up to about 50. I built a lot of machinery based on those numbers.


----------



## challenger

Good point about the particles. Filling frames of comb dislodges debry in/on the frame. I spent a whole day trying to figure out how to prevent the holes from clogging. Then I just took a kitchen screen style strainer and placed it over the drain of the tub and no problem. Almost all the debry floats anyway so it is not a problem for my system except for the particles that can & will sink.
I put caps on the end of my spray bars so it will be easy to uncap them & run a bottle brush through.
I noticed today that some holes were spraying odd so when I was done filling I boiled 3 gallons of water and let that cycle through the machine as I used the drain hose to clean the tub. It cleared out the few spray holes that started acting up but I think I'll clean the bars out before using it again.
A bad spray pattern could easily lead to syrup leaving the tub.
What type of pump is on that machine? I wonder if an electrical conversion is an easy switch. Normally you can trade an electric motor at 2/3 the size of a gas motor. Just need to get the 3450 RPM electric motor.
Thanks
Howard


----------



## The Honey Householder

Howard, 
Do you have a filter on it to reuse the over spray? Looks like a nice setup.:thumbsup:
We sprayed over 6000 frame this winter for packages and splits for this year. Been doing the frame spraying for over 10 years now. Just wish the bees could fill the frames that FAST, that way I wouldn't have to.opcorn:
Good luck,
Ron


----------



## challenger

The Honey Householder said:


> Howard,
> Do you have a filter on it to reuse the over spray? Looks like a nice setup.:thumbsup:
> We sprayed over 6000 frame this winter for packages and splits for this year. Been doing the frame spraying for over 10 years now. Just wish the bees could fill the frames that FAST, that way I wouldn't have to.opcorn:
> Good luck,
> Ron



The only filter I have is a large stainless mesh kitchen type strainer that I placed over the tub drain. It does a great job & being large it doesn't keep particles from choking off the pump.
The pump needs a good supply or it will start putting air into the syrup.
When I reuse the excess syrup from a previous session I strain it going into the tub as well. It is just a little precaution but is too easy to not do.
Thanks


----------



## Acebird

It would help if you didn't suck the syrup directly off the bottom. If you put a pipe in the drain to raise the inlet 1 or 2 inches off the bottom. The light debris floats to the top surface and the heavy debris sinks to the bottom. This would be typical for any hydraulic application.


----------



## gmcharlie

Well I love it! going to build one with a jacket for running HFCS. Mocking it up this weekend with a Diaghapram pump I use to feed HFCS anyway (truck mounted hose reel) 
One question I have you mentioned a syrup your buying thats surcrose and cheaper than HFCS?? what and where?

Charlie


----------



## challenger

gmcharlie said:


> Well I love it! going to build one with a jacket for running HFCS. Mocking it up this weekend with a Diaghapram pump I use to feed HFCS anyway (truck mounted hose reel)
> One question I have you mentioned a syrup your buying thats surcrose and cheaper than HFCS?? what and where?
> 
> Charlie


Atlantic sugar refining in Charlotte, NC is where I've gotten my syrup.
I don't want to squash your idea but I don't think a diaphragm pump be satisfactory. If you feel otherwise then build it & let me know how it performs.
In my exhaustive research I learned there are 2 or 3 type of pump for high vulome, high viscous fluid. An internal or external gear pump, mine being the external type, and a lobe pump. If I recall correctly a diaphragm pump will cause a lot of pulsation in the output if it is a size pump that will provide the volume*whicb, again if I recall, is about 16 GPM for the system I made. A small diaphragm pump doesn't pulsate as much but doesn't provide the volume.
Just passing on what, I think, I learned.
Ideally a direct mount pump with integrated gear reduction would be so much easier to build. My problem was budget and not knowing for sure what speed reduction I would needs for syrup.
Good luck.

Oh-to he poster before you I like the idea of a small stub at the drain. I'd like to try a version but one with a ,"U" turn so there is even less chance of particles suspended in the liquid to get in the supply.
In reality I'll continue with how it is setup now. It really seems to be hassle free and, in my personal experience, going forward sometimes means going backward.
I am almost always tempted to fix things that aren't broken. In this case I'll try to avoid this tendency due to having a machine I am more than happy with plus having a bit of burnout. .
Thanks


----------



## AstroBee

challenger said:


> about 16 GPM


Does that 16 GPM consider the speed reduction from your pulleys or is that a spec on the pump?


----------



## gmcharlie

Well I have a 13 gpm 12 volt pump that I use for straight syrup.... going to try that first cause Its here and plumed. If not i will switch to a lobe style real quick. but looking at the video i think this thing will do fine.


----------



## challenger

AstroBee said:


> Does that 16 GPM consider the speed reduction from your pulleys or is that a spec on the pump?


That is the pump specs with water. I didn't measure the output from my setup. A little thicker liquid will increase output because of "slip" with water.
I know the GPM has got to be less given the rpm I am running.
Thanks for noticing my error. I should have stated it was the spec rating.
Howard


----------



## Acebird

challenger said:


> I'd like to try a version but one with a ,"U" turn so there is even less chance of particles suspended in the liquid to get in the supply.


If I understand this correctly I wouldn't do that. Unless it is way above the bottom surface the inflow will suck particles off the bottom. Small particles in suspension that will go in with just a short extension should not plug up your sprayer nozzles. Here again bringing the nozzles closer together will allow you to open up the orifices creating more flow at lower pressure. Less likely to clog. You are going to get some large particles in the intake because you have your nozzles right over the intake. I know you might be tired of this project but you would help yourself allot if you move the nozzles close to the front of the sink away from the intake. Then an ordinary screen can be placed between the filling station and the intake as a baffle.
For those starting from scratch look for a laundry tub that has the drain very close to the back wall. Another option is to use the molded hole only as a clean out drain and put a bulk head fitting through the back wall as the intake.


----------



## challenger

Acebird said:


> If I understand this correctly I wouldn't do that. Unless it is way above the bottom surface the inflow will suck particles off the bottom. Small particles in suspension that will go in with just a short extension should not plug up your sprayer nozzles. Here again bringing the nozzles closer together will allow you to open up the orifices creating more flow at lower pressure. Less likely to clog. You are going to get some large particles in the intake because you have your nozzles right over the intake. I know you might be tired of this project but you would help yourself allot if you move the nozzles close to the front of the sink away from the intake. Then an ordinary screen can be placed between the filling station and the intake as a baffle.
> For those starting from scratch look for a laundry tub that has the drain very close to the back wall. Another option is to use the molded hole only as a clean out drain and put a bulk head fitting through the back wall as the intake.


Thanks for the input. As I mentioned I am not going to make any changes with the supply/tub drain. It is filtered well and not giving any problems.
I don't understand how bringing the, "nozzles" together would allow me to open the orifices? Are you calling what I call "spray bars" "nozzles"? If so then they are less than 4" apart and without some custom plumbing fittings that is as close as I can get them and I like them this distance enough that I am not going to mess with this system to any extend. Besides that the flow is maxed out from my pump so other than making the holes smaller there is nothing I could or would do to change the flow. The tub I bought has an indented moulded front so I can actually stand quite close to the spray bars. The issue is my feet would be hitting the pump/motor mounting plate. If I were to do it again I would make the plate higher so my feet would fit under it but again I am very happy with the ergonomics. If I were short and had short arm I would change it. Being 6'2" with ape arms it is easy to dip the frames. I agree with you that if others do this system it would be better to use a vertical bulkhead for the supply and the drain for clean out. Moving the spray bars forward is a good idea as well for a new build. The store I got my tub from has one that is a little larger but I didn't see the need and it was nearly 2X the price.
I placed 10 more frames of syrup in a hive and 2 double nucs today and I am glad I checked them. They are all bringing in nectar now but the hives had zero capped honey and the frames that are wet have super thin nectar.
I think we may be about to start our flow here in earnest. I see new comb being made and blueberrys are blooming in sunny spots.
Red Maple is a first and great foraging source here and these trees are busting out.
So far I've checked 8 double nucs and they overwintered great. I made 3 of these double deeps last weekend and will make the other 5 doubles in a week or two. The double deep hives I overwintered didn't fare nearly as well. I lost one about a month ago and the other 2 I've checked are good but not nearly as crowded as the double nucs. Hive beetles are huge here as well so I have got to keep the hives crowded.
Thanks
Howard


----------



## Acebird

challenger said:


> I don't understand how bringing the, "nozzles" together would allow me to open the orifices? Are you calling what I call "spray bars" "nozzles"? If so then they are less than 4" apart and without some custom plumbing fittings that is as close as I can get them and I like them this distance enough that I am not going to mess with this system to any extend. Besides that the flow is maxed out from my pump so other than making the holes smaller there is nothing I could or would do to change the flow.


Yes, I am speaking of spray bars when I said nozzles. The flow of the system is dependent on back pressure. If you open the orifices the flow will be greater. Opening the orifices will also drop the back pressure so the spray bars will not shoot out so far but the volume will be greater and not splash as much. The plumbing is easy enough to do but if you don't want to that is fine. Not everybody is 6-2. Besides, if you are doing 10 frames that will not feel the same as doing 100 or 500 regardless of how tall you are.


----------



## challenger

Acebird said:


> Yes, I am speaking of spray bars when I said nozzles. The flow of the system is dependent on back pressure. If you open the orifices the flow will be greater. Opening the orifices will also drop the back pressure so the spray bars will not shoot out so far but the volume will be greater and not splash as much. The plumbing is easy enough to do but if you don't want to that is fine. Not everybody is 6-2. Besides, if you are doing 10 frames that will not feel the same as doing 100 or 500 regardless of how tall you are.


Thanks for the input. It was a challenge and a huge learning curve for me in sizing the proper output for my pump.
It sounds like you know about pumps but for anyone tinkering a gear pump has to be able to get rid of all the fluid it gets supplied with. Some have over pressure valves but these are to prevent pump damage-not to accommodate poor supply side design. I got lucky in that my pump is the largest external gear pump I could find before stepping up to an "industrial" pump. Which would require industrial budget.
Anyway with my spray bars at 1" with the size & number of holes it worked out perfectly in that I am getting just the right volume & pressure from the spray bars and I am satisfying the pump requirements.
If anyone wants to use a larger pump than the supply will handle simply putting a bypass inline with the supply side will allow adjustment of the flow/pressure. Word of warning -make sure you have this open when the pump is running. These pumps easily explode PVC.
BTW- I don't get syrup splashing from my tub in any significant amount. I've filled 40 frames recently and have a few drops on the floor. Not enough for me to even bother cleaning up so far. I know I'll be filling more today so I'll wait until the filling is finished for the immediate future.
Thanks
Howard


----------



## Ian

have you considered a screen on the bottom of the tub to catch stray bees and pieces of wax so that you dont circulate it all throughout the machine?


----------



## Fishman43

challenger said:


> The only filter I have is a large stainless mesh kitchen type strainer that I placed over the tub drain. It does a great job & being large it doesn't keep particles from choking off the pump.
> Thanks


Screen/filter is in place


----------



## Acebird

challenger said:


> If anyone wants to use a larger pump than the supply will handle simply putting a bypass inline with the supply side will allow adjustment of the flow/pressure. Word of warning -make sure you have this open when the pump is running. These pumps easily explode PVC.


A gear pump would not have been my choice for this application because of the close tolerance of the pump. Debris could ruin the pump.


----------



## gmcharlie

FYI that diagphram pump works just fine. Mocked it up today. washtub like yours on top a old jacketed botteling tank. Will use the tank to heat the HFCS, and drain right back into it (with a screen)..... but that Diaphram pumps is just great..... looks and works just like yours in the video...


----------



## challenger

Acebird said:


> A gear pump would not have been my choice for this application because of the close tolerance of the pump. Debris could ruin the pump.


What type of pump would you have used? Does stating that you wouldn't use a gear pump help anyone? Sounds like you would just like to be critical being that you didn't offer an alternative to the pump I chose. 
I agree external gear pumps are easily damaged by debris but in speaking with the manufacturer they said that the debris generated by wax bee comb would easily pass through the pump and, if I recall correctly, I mentioned the fact that these type pumps were not designed for particles in the solution. Believe me I did a ton of homework and for what I already had on hand to put toward the design and my budget the pump I used fit the bill.



gmcharlie said:


> FYI that diagphram pump works just fine. Mocked it up today. washtub like yours on top a old jacketed botteling tank. Will use the tank to heat the HFCS, and drain right back into it (with a screen)..... but that Diaphram pumps is just great..... looks and works just like yours in the video...


That is outstanding. I'd love to see the setup if you get some time to post pictures/ links. What pump did you use? How did you power it?
A diaphragm pump seems much more user friendly than a gear pump for several reasons. I imagine they are less costly as well.
I appreciate this contribution. Others may be helped by your design.
BTW-did you try the pump without heating the syrup? I didn't do much research on diaphragm pumps so I don't know how they typically perform with thicker fluids.
Thanks
Howard


----------



## gmcharlie

Haven't tried it yet, but I will. Todays test was shugar water, cold... My HFCS is due till thursday.......


----------



## Acebird

challenger said:


> What type of pump would you have used? Does stating that you wouldn't use a gear pump help anyone? Sounds like you would just like to be critical being that you didn't offer an alternative to the pump I chose.


Sorry, I didn't mean to be critical but in a re-circulation application you need good filtering for the intake because there could be anything on the frames when sticky honey and wax is involved. I thought if the syrup is thick it might not go in the cells to good so I don't see why a circulation pump would not work. You might have to gear it to cut down the RPM. There are piston transfer pumps that work in a 55 gallon drum that would be an option. Wobble plate pumps, lob pumps, and diaphragm pumps as mentioned. The diaphragm pump should be oversize and run at a slower RPM. They can get expensive too when the size goes up.


----------



## challenger

For anyone interested I am posting a final video on youtube. Look, if you are so inclined, at, "Howardtoob"
Here are a few photos of one way to make this pump.
Thanks

[URL="http://







[/URL]


----------



## Acebird

I would like to see at least a bronze sleeve on that first pillow block next to the pulley. Ball bearing would be better.


----------



## challenger

You are right. Ball bearing would be better. Bronze sleeve as well would be better. I had the shaft & pillow blocks already so I didn't have to spend $. They are cast iron and being the shaft is aligned within .002" with a flexible coupling the pulley shaft "should" live longer than me so long as I keep some oil in the blocks.
Remember it is running relatively slow.
Also, if you recall, I needed to do this on a budget. I sell honey and contribute proceeds to a cancer foundation. Before spending $ it only makes sense to use what is available free and upgrade if/when the system is proven. In my case I'll let it spin until I smell smoke.
For anyone thinking of a build using a shaft for speed reduction Ace bird is correct-use a BB block for the shaft. Shaft alignment is just as important with any type of bearing block no matter what anyone says.
Thanks
Howard


----------



## Acebird

I understand. You could very well get away with what you have being vigilant on the oiling. keep your ear on the sound of the motor. If you hear it straining the load is not only on the motor it is on that first bearing due to "belt pull". As you have stated, gear pumps are not forgiving. Load ups can happen instantly both on the vacuum side and the pressure side.

FYI - I would like to see a drip cover over that open frame motor but not so much that it impends the cooling air.


----------



## gmcharlie

I think I got pics uploaded. FYI cold straight HFCS runs great no nead to heat. 2 things to change, deeper tub for splash (note I did include cleanouts for spray wands) and a bypass hose so you can lower the pressure. with 1-1 ratio there is too much pressure and syrup actually splashes back out of the comb. Also note I had to cut the plastic out of the sink trap, otherwise the drainback was a little slow.


----------



## Acebird

Humor an old man charlie. You're going to throw that bin away anyway so try this: Stop up that sink strainer you have in the center and cut a big hole in the side of the tub that would let the level get to about 4 inches until it spills out into your vessel below. You will obviously have to change the arrangement you have there. I think that will cut down your splash.
Another note, make your vacuum side hose as large as you can and as short as you can. Almost like a flexible coupling. On a warm day the hose might collapse and shut down the flow.
What is that stainless tank? That is a nice tank.


----------



## Mbeck

This is a good thread!

Ace design one...you seem to know something about this. Give us details on exactly what design yours would be and what components. Cost of course is important.

Better yet start a thread that takes us through the process of actually building one and when it's finished offer it for sale here. You could share your knowledge, donate the money from your first one. Making the world a better place one Ace bird auto frame filing feed pump at a time.


----------



## Acebird

I only offer advice. I have no interest in a entrepreneurial endeavor. This is a forum meant to help people. If you think I have nothing to offer ignore me, it won't hurt my feelings.


----------



## challenger

gmcharlie said:


> View attachment 4660
> View attachment 4661
> View attachment 4662
> 
> 
> I think I got pics uploaded. FYI cold straight HFCS runs great no nead to heat. 2 things to change, deeper tub for splash (note I did include cleanouts for spray wands) and a bypass hose so you can lower the pressure. with 1-1 ratio there is too much pressure and syrup actually splashes back out of the comb. Also note I had to cut the plastic out of the sink trap, otherwise the drainback was a little slow.



I like this and would have considered using this pump if I had one as well. Nice to be able to call upon the pump for double duty. 
Acebird is right about using the largest supply hose that you can. It may be that the bottling tank doesn't have a bung large enough to go any bigger but even if you upsize it right from the tanks it will help a lot. Even perhaps easier would be to bag the bottling tank. The pump will handle unheated syrup easily so it will be thicker coming out and you can use another vat or go straight into the pump from the tub drain. I really think heating the syrup is posing more of a problem than helping.
I used small sections of "Spa Hose" on the inlet & outlet of mine. That's why the plumbing looks a little crocked. It is flexed a bit from the memory this type hose has. It is PVC and easily glued and it will not collapse whereas the vinyl you are using will collapse easily as I am sure you know. 
I used "spigot" 90* elbows which make the spray bars about 2-2 1/2" closer together than slip/slip 90* fittings. If I were to do it again I would make them with even closer. I'd like them to be about 3" apart. This would also reduce splashing if it was an issue. 
Do you have your spray bars shooting downward?
Nice system. Have you filled a lot of frames? I checked out some hives I put syrup frames in today. I had some strong hives that were a bit light so I gave them each 5 frames and they have cleaned these frames out and stored the syrup somewhere below the top box I guess. This is good because the queen could become bound up with too much syrup. Our flow is staring up here for sure so I don't need the hives swarming due to my over feeding.
All in all I think this is how I am going to feed period. I am getting rid of the many buckets I have as well as the many nuc tops with holes for jars/buckets. The buckets have always been such a PIA to keep clean and to clean the lids on etc.
Jamming frames full of syrup into a hive is golden to me. Puts the food right there in front of the bees with no issues that come with other methods. I used to open feed sometimes and that was easy but has it's drawbacks so no more of that either for me.
Fair warning though-it could be a bad deal if 1:1 syrupis used IMO. I think this will bring too much H2O into the hives and the bees will need to work to evaporate it and it could mean condensation developing. I'll stick (no pun intended) to the 2:1 even in the "queen castles" I use to make queens.
Looking forward to all the designs people come up with. Simpler is better and you have me beat on that count for sure.


----------



## Scottsman

Great Job, Challenger ! It takes a great amount of initiative to design and complete a project that operates as well as this. Well Done.


----------



## Mbeck

Acebird said:


> I only offer advice. I have no interest in a entrepreneurial endeavor. This is a forum meant to help people. If you think I have nothing to offer ignore me, it won't hurt my feelings.


I was trying to be positive. You seem to have experience and valuable insight.
I think it's very nice when people share constructively .
I bet that you could teach us a lot by building one and sharing as you go though the process.


----------



## Acebird

challenger said:


> I used "spigot" 90* elbows which make the spray bars about 2-2 1/2" closer together than slip/slip 90* fittings. If I were to do it again I would make them with even closer.


If you use vinyl like Gmcharlie, you can use a "Y" fitting and then you can put the spray bars at any distance you want. You will also have a better flow than using the "T" fitting.


----------



## gmcharlie

The tank I used was a bottleing tank... When I talked to Ron Housholder a cpl years ago he mentioned heating it to get it in the comb. I assumed that would be required. His system is a but different and he heats it to 160 Deg. I had then bought supercell combs to start hives with but couldn't find a way to fill combs. This was so sweet and simple. and it works with cold hfcs, or you could heat it in an attempt to kill bacteria.
The outlet for the botteling tank is 1" and it pumps sweet, no need for a larger suction line either as you can see the pump is also gravity fed.

ACebird, not sure what you mean by the hole and less splash? all the splash problem is from the pump streams hitting the comb. full submersion would help that.... I intend to build a steel version this summer.

Challenger, I don't think your going to want to feed this way all year. Robbing and such will be an issue, as well as you won't know syrup from honey. My goal/ intention is 2 fold. first Starts, getting new splits and packages moving when there is little nectar or flow. the second will be wintering. I take all honey I can and let the hives do what the can... this will allow me to add back more feed, and increase survivors.


----------



## Acebird

gmcharlie said:


> all the splash problem is from the pump streams hitting the comb.


Drill the holes in the spray bar a little bigger. It will decrease the pressure of the stream and increase the volume. Less splash off the combs. 160 degrees means the comb has to be plastic, no?


----------



## gmcharlie

Well I think in Rons case the syrup has cooled a bit before it hits, I also know his are OLD comb... not much wax left in them! 
I am going to play with the splash issue. start filling frames today, I have about 600 to do. its a balance between pressure to get it in the hole and do much washing it back out.


----------



## Acebird

I would think it is a matter of getting the air out of the cells. In a submerge situation there would be no way for the air to get back in once it is pushed out.


----------



## challenger

gmcharlie said:


> The tank I used was a bottleing tank... When I talked to Ron Housholder a cpl years ago he mentioned heating it to get it in the comb. I assumed that would be required. His system is a but different and he heats it to 160 Deg. I had then bought supercell combs to start hives with but couldn't find a way to fill combs. This was so sweet and simple. and it works with cold hfcs, or you could heat it in an attempt to kill bacteria.
> The outlet for the botteling tank is 1" and it pumps sweet, no need for a larger suction line either as you can see the pump is also gravity fed.
> 
> ACebird, not sure what you mean by the hole and less splash? all the splash problem is from the pump streams hitting the comb. full submersion would help that.... I intend to build a steel version this summer.
> 
> Challenger, I don't think your going to want to feed this way all year. Robbing and such will be an issue, as well as you won't know syrup from honey. My goal/ intention is 2 fold. first Starts, getting new splits and packages moving when there is little nectar or flow. the second will be wintering. I take all honey I can and let the hives do what the can... this will allow me to add back more feed, and increase survivors.


I only extract from medium supers. Once in a great while I'll use a deep as a honey super but it is when I need deep foundation drawn and the flow and colony are super strong or it is for a swarm. I will make sure to not extract sugar honey.
If you extract all the honey how is it possible to know that the honey is not from "manipulated" HFCS? 
I also, unfortunately, very aware of the robbing potential and I personally keep the entrances super small during our dearth. I feel that keeping hives at equal strength & strong is the only way to prevent robbing around here. Same for SHB which are big time here. If the colonies are weak and/or have to cover more comb than they should both problems arise and kill hives. When there is no flow. I keep my hives crowded and of equal strength. I use a couple of out yards and they typically have hives of different sizes. Separating the hives by at least 3' seems to help me too with robbing. I'm not going to argue what I do with anyone-it is what I've found works for me - for now anyway. 600 frames! How were you doing this in the past? 
Good luck-Howard.
Almost forgot-the plain sugar syrup seems a lot harder for the bees to find. I filled several frames the other day and they were flying hard and I didn't get a single one come into the shop yet they were right outside the roll up door cleaning out a few buckets from the day prior that I mixed some home made HBH in? This could make feeding syrup less of a robbing potential but I still feel if there is nothing for the bees to forage on they will take whatever a weak hive has.




Acebird said:


> I would think it is a matter of getting the air out of the cells. In a submerge situation there would be no way for the air to get back in once it is pushed out.


A submerged situation? Um....well....I guess design a system like this on paper so I can better understand it. I would bet $ there isn't such a system that would allow filling frames of comb while submerged. I've been wrong before though. 
I have no problem at all with splashing as is shown in my recent YouTube video where I show droplets on the plastic stretch wrap as being on the underside of this wrap and not coming out all over the place. I suspect it is a combination of properly sized holes, pressure and angle of the streams that helps most. Having my tub fairly full of syrup also helps to keep the streams from hitting the sides of my tub when no frames are there to block them.


----------



## Acebird

challenger said:


> A submerged situation? Um....well....I guess design a system like this on paper so I can better understand it. I would bet $ there isn't such a system that would allow filling frames of comb while submerged.


There probably isn't a system that exist. Is that because it hasn't been tried? Sit is a whirl pool bath and feel the jets hitting your body parts. Keep in mind that the cells are constructed in an upward 13 degree angle so the tendency for the air is to go up and out of the cells if a forceful flow is imparted on the comb. Do I know it will work? Of course not. Is it worth a try? Someone else will have to decide.


----------



## gmcharlie

Well I did let the tub get full enough to "submerge" the nozzles I can tell you it slows the Flow of the jets enough it would take more pressure or nozzles that are much closet together. less turbulence, but you also couldn't see clogged nozzles. 
Clogged nozzles were the biggest issue and a real pain until I put in a large filter sock under the drain. Problem solved.....
I did about 400 frames yesterday, your going to get a bit sticky. need a temp drain pain. let the frames sit for 4-5 minutes would be better than straight to the box.

Challenger, no worries on which way you feed, just a comment. I use a truck mounted pump and boardman feeders the rest of the year. AS for "manupiliated honey" its the same procedure on deeps as it would be in a super. there is no stopping the bees from moving HFCS from the deep upwards to the super, the key is the timing, and knowing that the bees have consumed the feed. Thats one reason I wouldn't do it all season also. after the first month or two how would you tell syrup from nectar??
As for how I did it in the past, I didn't ... I would split up any remaining honey as best I could (usualy one frame per hive)......and fill the feeders


----------



## Daniel Y

gmcharlie said:


> Sweet! I was just at Rons place this weekend and looked at his system, and was figuring out how to make one of my own. I was going to use vacuum, but this thing makes it look so sweet!. How are you heating the syrup???


My experience with vacuum and fluids is you get foam. Think about how pressure is keeping a bubble a bubble. I have also seen that pressure is a better way to reduce air or bubbles in fluid. Some say it is only squeezing the bubbles so small you no longer see them. I am not so sure. But if so it would not work so well for getting bubbles out of cells.

Nice job on the design by the way. looks like it was a lot of work. I am impressed by the perseverance alone.


----------



## challenger

Daniel Y said:


> My experience with vacuum and fluids is you get foam. Think about how pressure is keeping a bubble a bubble. I have also seen that pressure is a better way to reduce air or bubbles in fluid. Some say it is only squeezing the bubbles so small you no longer see them. I am not so sure. But if so it would not work so well for getting bubbles out of cells.
> 
> Nice job on the design by the way. looks like it was a lot of work. I am impressed by the perseverance alone.



Thanks-my perseverance is actually a fault in my case. Md's call is a form of OCD. I call being Irish. Never quit even if it makes total sense to do so :s

One way I was going to try the vacuum, as per the suggestion of an engineer that specializes in this sort of thing, is to draw down the atmosphere in the chamber first while the frames are empty and then slowly introduce the syrup supply. I imagine filling the frame while they are submerged in a vacuum chamber would mean a ton of air coming from the frames = massive bubbles.
Thanks
Howard


----------



## gmcharlie

challenger said:


> Thanks-my perseverance is actually a fault in my case. Md's call is a form of OCD. I call being Irish. Never quit even if it makes total sense to do so :s
> 
> One way I was going to try the vacuum, as per the suggestion of an engineer that specializes in this sort of thing, is to draw down the atmosphere in the chamber first while the frames are empty and then slowly introduce the syrup supply. I imagine filling the frame while they are submerged in a vacuum chamber would mean a ton of air coming from the frames = massive bubbles.
> Thanks
> Howard


The HFCS would of course foam if you were to go that far with vacuum. I have since learned from this post and trying it, its not that hard. a mild stream of syrup from about any source will displace the air in the cell. it does seem that a submerged system would be a bit better, for both splash and what I would call wash out. force of the stream bouncing if you will, but it was a small amount. 
Experience with about 500 frames in the last 2 days tells me filter, and refill method are the two important details. a larger drain rack would also be in the works for fall. overall its sweet, hives are full of food. for the new ones, and I added some food to some of last years that were real light.


----------



## Acebird

gmcharlie said:


> a larger drain rack would also be in the works for fall. overall its sweet,


Here I would recommend a very light squeegee system that you could pass the frame between two rubber flaps and take off most of the surface syrup without damaging the comb. Then put the frame on a rack. I would make the rack a sliding rack where you can use the newly filled comb to push the other combs away from you. Then another person can take the older filled combs (drier) off the rack and put them in boxes.


----------



## challenger

Acebird said:


> Here I would recommend a very light squeegee system that you could pass the frame between two rubber flaps and take off most of the surface syrup without damaging the comb.


Pardon me here but, just IMOHO, that is complete overkill. The rack, again IMOHO, is overkil as well.
If one has some of the plastic type hive covers these work great for catching the excess syrup. If not then hive covers sealed with wax OR just a trash bag. Then you can stack out a good pile on top of each other. From my perspective I find it most convenient to use what I already have. As shown in a photo or two, I can fill one of those black totes and put a deep hive body on top of it as I fill it and do so again until it is 2-3 high. An alternative would be to take a single deep and seal the bottom so it will hold 10 filled frames and then be the bottom deep with additional deeps stacked to the ceiling if need be. Having to make, acquire or otherwise add additional equipment for filled frames takes away the simplicity and ease of use that makes this system so attractive to me. 

If one wishes to turn a frame filling unit into the R2D2 of the beekeeping equipment list I imagine this could be a form of entertainment but for me it is about simplicity and multi-purpose equipment. The diaphram pump is a good example. It pulls double duty if need be whereas mine is, as currently set up, a single function unit.

I was very happy to find the results I did for several key reasons. One of them is that I got to get rid of the many buckets and hive top feeders I used in the past for feeding. It isn't often that project results in a net LOSS of "stuff" and this was a huge side benefit for me myself & I.



> Then put the frame on a rack. I would make the rack a sliding rack where you can use the newly filled comb to push the other combs away from you. Then another person can take the older filled combs (drier) off the rack and put them in boxes.


See above PLUS NOW we are making this a two man operation? Not in my world. I want to do things when I can and when I feel like it. To get involved with another person, that will likely show up late or even worse stay around too long, is adding complications.

A sliding rack? How big? Where would the dripping syrup get collected? Now you have to add yet another bit piece and part to collect dripping syrup. It seems as if this is getting to be a, "who can design the most unneeded complications into a frame filling machine" contest.
If that is your thing then beautiful-life has a purpose. I'll continue reading and see who wins that one.

A squeegee? Really? How about a centrifuge? Yea-that's it. Make a conveyor rack to hold the ears of the frames as they spiral skyward with a twisting/twirling/rotating motion until they gain enough speed so they can be flipped end over end at just the right speed. Dripping syrup is thrown off the frames. Enclose this Willy Wonka Framededripper Rack in, heavy duty, hospital grade clear vinyl and all the stubborn syrup will run down the inside of this enclosure and end up at the very bottom. Then they syrup can be combined with other yummy ingredients and turned into a "Wonka BeeBerry Spinny Sticky Treat"
A squeegee? Really? Oh my!
Howard
I may be simple but I am...........darn................what's the word????????????????Oh yea-I'm simple too


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Howard, I admire your ingenuity in developing and building this frame filling tool. :thumbsup:

I suggest that you not take Ace's comments too seriously. After all, he is an "engineer" that also recommended *removing *some counterweights from a homebuilt forklift and going to the trouble of shifting the position of the operators seat (and therefore operator's weight) to make up for the missing counterweights. Of course, he overlooked what happens when the operator dismounts the forklift with a load on the forks. 


The fun is in the thread linked here - it even has photos:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ft!!!-Europeans-have-the-coolest-toys!!/page2
:lpf:


.


----------



## Mbeck

I think the name "Wonka" is protected better change the name.

Ace,
I really was being serious and now I'm afraid people are making fun of you.
Build one! A bigger, better, faster one with cheaper parts, get a patent on it and smash the original in a video you post here! Don't let anyone use you ideas.
That will show them.


----------



## Acebird

challenger said:


> Pardon me here but, just IMOHO, that is complete overkill. The rack, again IMOHO, is overkil as well.
> If one has some of the plastic type hive covers these work great for catching the excess syrup. If not then hive covers sealed with wax OR just a trash bag. Then you can stack out a good pile on top of each other. From my perspective I find it most convenient to use what I already have. As shown in a photo or two, I can fill one of those black totes and put a deep hive body on top of it as I fill it and do so again until it is 2-3 high. An alternative would be to take a single deep and seal the bottom so it will hold 10 filled frames and then be the bottom deep with additional deeps stacked to the ceiling if need be. Having to make, acquire or otherwise add additional equipment for filled frames takes away the simplicity and ease of use that makes this system so attractive to me.


Challenger I am sorry I ticked you off. I was thinking along the lines of 500 frames or better not diddling with 20 frames or so. Most of what I commented on are to help other people not yourself. You are happy with what you have and I don't have any problem with that. If you are happy what is upsetting you?
Resident Archiver point people to the thread and let them read the whole thread for themselves. Unless you are after a new title of "Archiving Thread Side tracker".


----------



## Acebird

Mbeck said:


> Ace,
> I really was being serious and now I'm afraid people are making fun of you.
> Build one! A bigger, better, faster one with cheaper parts, get a patent on it and smash the original in a video you post here! Don't let anyone use you ideas.
> That will show them.


Is that what beesource is about? Thumping your chest and proving to disbelievers. I am too old for that childish behavior. My ideas could stimulate better ideas. That is all I hope for.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> Most of what I commented on are to help other people not yourself.


Remarkable _hubris_! 

Ace, you earlier complained when I used the "Quote" feature to bring up older threads, so this time (in post #80) I provided a direct link to the older thread instead. Apparently you don't like that either. Is there something about your "advice" that _fails _the test of time? :scratch:



Oh, and you also complained about me using "animated" icons. :lpf:

:ws:


----------



## challenger

Acebird said:


> Challenger I am sorry I ticked you off. I was thinking along the lines of 500 frames or better not diddling with 20 frames or so. Most of what I commented on are to help other people not yourself. You are happy with what you have and I don't have any problem with that. If you are happy what is upsetting you?
> Resident Archiver point people to the thread and let them read the whole thread for themselves. Unless you are after a new title of "Archiving Thread Side tracker".


Oh-I am not ticked off by any stretch and I am content in my diddling. Actually I think I exist to diddle, fiddle, tinker and twiddle but mostly I DO. I don't succeed nearly as often as I DO but I still DO. I DO over and over and over again. And then I DO some more.

I wish I had the brain power to have been able to get a degree in M.E. I admire those, such as yourself, that are able to learn, remember and are intelligent enough to get through the required schooling. I've got some learning disabilities that now have names. When I was in school they called people like me, "daydreamers" & "lazy". I can't be lazy-it's just not in my DNA but I can daydream in the middle of an intense conversation and that isn't a personal trait I am proud to own but it is a fact. I get by though and I suppose I do so by DOING. I'm stupid & stubborn. One offsets the other to by some measure but I still wish I could have learned what engineers have been able to learn.

Those that can, do. Those that cannot, comment.

Using your vernacular:
I'd like to see, at minimum, mock ups of some, or maybe most, of your ideas. Even if it was AutoCad or something similar.

I am, in a lot of ways, a wannabee. Don't be like me.
Howard (not ticked off but I did take a tick off for the first time two days ago. I hate ticks)


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> I wish I had the brain power to have been able to get a _degree in M.E_. I admire those, such as yourself, that are able to learn, remember and are intelligent enough to get through the required schooling.

If this is a reference to the Beesource member mentioned in my earlier post, he does not show a degree in Mechanical Engineering on his resume, as posted on LinkedIn. It does show an Associate degree in Civil Technology.


----------



## EastCarolinaBee

If you didn't diddle, fiddle, tinker and twiddle , how on earth would anything get accomplished !! Thanks Howard !!


----------



## gmcharlie

Well for info I do have my ME, several patents.. and lots of freaky wierd ideas and yet hats off to challenger for pointing out what I had over looked. back to reinventing the wheel. someone in france years back did it simpler......

As for wipers and dripping, no wipers needed. I noticed Pure HFCS which is what I am feeding takes time to drip. It also seems to pool in the bottom of the frame. a drip trough would be nice. Come fall I will use the one from my uncapper. 

I will build one this summer, steel is already in the corner. but I don't see much market for them. those of us who fill frames are a small minority.


----------



## Daniel Y

Acebird said:


> There probably isn't a system that exist. Is that because it hasn't been tried? Sit is a whirl pool bath and feel the jets hitting your body parts. Keep in mind that the cells are constructed in an upward 13 degree angle so the tendency for the air is to go up and out of the cells if a forceful flow is imparted on the comb. Do I know it will work? Of course not. Is it worth a try? Someone else will have to decide.



Actually it does exist. in multiple forms. jut not for bee feeding syrup. It works extremely well and will replace the air in a cell of wood. One variation of the system is used in forensic sciences in order to bring evidence samples to a condition they can be manipulated. As an example how would you bring Ash from a crime scene to a condition that it can be handled examined and investigated? Basically the idea is you replace every bit of air in that ash with plastic or other resins.

The process is not really that complicated to build but would be time consuming to use with frames. unless you built a chamber that woudl hold many frames at one. IN many cases the process includes Pressure. vacuum and heat. But some of these are requirements of the resins in use and not critical to the displacement of air. The pressure then vacuum cycle is far more relevant to that issue.

One such system you may be familiar with is how they can recover finger prints on objects with the use of a vacuum chamber and vaporized super glue. Super glue is manly a fast curing plastic. The vacuum causes the glue to replace the air in the oils and dirt of the print.

In all I am not sure the benefit would justify the cost or effort.


----------



## Acebird

challenger said:


> I wish I had the brain power to have been able to get a degree in M.E.


Challenger, as the archiver pointed out I do not have a degree in M.E. Just like beekeeping or anything else, you can learn from books, lectures or tinkering and observation. I was fortunate enough to learn early on by some of the brightest people in the country. I was 20 and they were 60 to 70. As fast as they could spill their guts I was absorbing practical information. It gave me a quick boost that I am eternally grateful for.



> Using your vernacular:
> I'd like to see, at minimum, mock ups of some, or maybe most, of your ideas. Even if it was AutoCad or something similar.


PM me, I am not sure why you are asking. Through much of my carrier I was under non disclosure agreements.


----------



## challenger

Daniel Y said:


> Actually it does exist. in multiple forms. jut not for bee feeding syrup. It works extremely well and will replace the air in a cell of wood. One variation of the system is used in forensic sciences in order to bring evidence samples to a condition they can be manipulated. As an example how would you bring Ash from a crime scene to a condition that it can be handled examined and investigated? Basically the idea is you replace every bit of air in that ash with plastic or other resins.
> 
> The process is not really that complicated to build but would be time consuming to use with frames. unless you built a chamber that woudl hold many frames at one. IN many cases the process includes Pressure. vacuum and heat. But some of these are requirements of the resins in use and not critical to the displacement of air. The pressure then vacuum cycle is far more relevant to that issue.
> 
> One such system you may be familiar with is how they can recover finger prints on objects with the use of a vacuum chamber and vaporized super glue. Super glue is manly a fast curing plastic. The vacuum causes the glue to replace the air in the oils and dirt of the print.
> 
> In all I am not sure the benefit would justify the cost or effort.


Seems there may be a mix up. The quoted text is referring to the idea Acebird had about filling comb while submerged in syrup. I think your post is talking about filling comb under vacuum. I had this, perhaps absurd, idea and another poster on this thread mentioned using a vacuum chamber as a way to fill the stubborn cells????



Acebird said:


> Challenger, as the archiver pointed out I do not have a degree in M.E. Just like beekeeping or anything else, you can learn from books, lectures or tinkering and observation. I was fortunate enough to learn early on by some of the brightest people in the country. I was 20 and they were 60 to 70. As fast as they could spill their guts I was absorbing practical information. It gave me a quick boost that I am eternally grateful for.
> 
> 
> PM me, I am not sure why you are asking. Through much of my carrier I was under non disclosure agreements.


Sorry-I thought I saw in your profile you were a mechanical engineer. 
Most engineers I know have a lot of experience with Autocad or similar programs and thought, if you did, that some of your ideas would be easy to "produce" using a cad program. You had some thoughts & input on several fronts here and I legitimately thought showing some of these "on paper" would be very interesting. Not trying to be a wise guy honestly.



gmcharlie said:


> Well for info I do have my ME, several patents.. and lots of freaky wierd ideas and yet hats off to challenger for pointing out what I had over looked. back to reinventing the wheel. someone in france years back did it simpler......


Um....I hope I didn't come across as challenging your credentials. I was referring to Acebird & trying to see if he had the ability or desire to generate some engineering drawings for some of the suggestions he had.
What is it I pointed out that you had overlooked?
Thanks-Howard 



> As for wipers and dripping, no wipers needed. I noticed Pure HFCS which is what I am feeding takes time to drip. It also seems to pool in the bottom of the frame. a drip trough would be nice. Come fall I will use the one from my uncapper.
> 
> I will build one this summer, steel is already in the corner. but I don't see much market for them. those of us who fill frames are a small minority.


I'd like to see what you have in mind for the trough etc.
What are you calling pure HFCS? I am aware of a couple of mixes available but I've not heard of pure HFCS. It may be something I can try to find locally IF I can ask around for it knowing what I am talking about. There is a source within an hour or so but they sell 49% which would be a hassle for me to store in warm weather. My sugar syrup connection will dry up when my son graduates UNC Charlotte this fall so I'll be looking for something else. Charlotte is a 4 hour drive each way so it doesn't make economical sense without having someone do double duty by shuttling syrup when visiting my area.
Thanks
Howard


----------



## Acebird

challenger said:


> Sorry-I thought I saw in your profile you were a mechanical engineer.


I am a mechanical engineer and have had extensive use of Autocad in the 2D environment. But how would I post a drawing to beesource? Secondly, most people don't know how to read drawings. It is different if you are 3D modeling.


----------



## Daniel Y

I just tried to get a drawing I made this weekend loaded to this message. won't happen. I can't even save it as a jpg and put it in this message. Not sure how to link to it. It is in google sketch up.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

>  I can't even save it as a jpg

From SketchUp, its under the File menu:
File > Export > 2D Graphic > Jpeg

Or you can choose PNG as an alternate file type.

---------------
And as far as converting Autocad files to display here, there are plenty of sites offering conversions to JPG. Some of them even offer free trials. Of course, that only works if you actually have an Autocad file to convert. :lookout:


----------



## gmcharlie

I was refering to "straight" HFCS not cut with water... I am feeding 55 in spring. Cut for the feeders but not cut in the frames


----------



## VARyan

Have you applied for your patent yet.


----------



## My-smokepole

? Would a honey pump work. Seeing one is coming my way. 
David.


----------



## gmcharlie

Looks to me from my experiments any simple pump works fine. It actually doesn't take much pressure to push the fluid into the cells, but it takes volume to feed all the "nozzles"


----------



## Acebird

Hello, pump class 101...


----------



## schmism

Ive been looking for the numbers but didnt see any.

What is the weight of the frame after a run through the sprayer? ie, how much syrup can you get into the cells/frames?

Is this process repeated numerous times, or is this a single event that is done, placeing an entire super of these wetted frames on a hive and never going back? eg does it provide enough feed for 1-2 months in the spring? or is it just like several weeks and you need to do it again if times are tough for the bees?


----------



## gmcharlie

good questions. Generaly its a one time thing to get them off to a great start in cool weather. Honey is not good brood food, light syrup is actually better so the goal is to provide a ton of it right in the brood area even when its to cold or you have no real active foragers. Even with a feeder the nurse bees wait for someone to go get it from the feeders. with it right on the comb the move quicker. after that first brood cycle your hive is in better shape, usually the weather would be better(not this year) and your balance of foragers to nurse bees in line.
I don't conssider them for dearths. just starups, and fall. I take all the honey in the fall, so several deeps frames of syrup will be put back. (first time doing this)

As for weight, didn't test that, but there full, frames are probably 6-7 lbs each


----------



## schmism

gmcharlie said:


> , usually the weather would be better(not this year) and your balance of foragers to nurse bees in line.


sorry to hijack the thread but i had to ask
your about 3 hrs south of me. My spring has been unsually cool and wet IMHO. nothing compared to last year when we had 70 deg in march and never looked back. dandelions have been out but not in force and seems we are really struggling to get a good bloom on... hows it in your part.


----------



## gmcharlie

Crappy, a cpl warm days, and a lot of cold rain. locking the bees in for 3-4 days straight. Lost a lot of brood last week in a cold snap, just got of the phone with a guy who lost 6 new package installs because of a cold snap and no food to the cluster.


----------



## challenger

schmism said:


> Ive been looking for the numbers but didnt see any.
> 
> What is the weight of the frame after a run through the sprayer? ie, how much syrup can you get into the cells/frames?
> 
> Is this process repeated numerous times, or is this a single event that is done, placeing an entire super of these wetted frames on a hive and never going back? eg does it provide enough feed for 1-2 months in the spring? or is it just like several weeks and you need to do it again if times are tough for the bees?


IMO placing a super FULL of syrup is asking for trouble. I can't say for sure but if it is a cold climate the super will be like an ice cube on top of the hive. JMOHO YMMV
For the 2:1 syrup I use I'd say the frames are 95% full or more and there is very little "settling" at the bottom of the frames but there is some and a drip container is required. I would say that a deep frame of syrup weighs 75% of a honey frame.



gmcharlie said:


> good questions. Generaly its a one time thing to get them off to a great start in cool weather. Honey is not good brood food, light syrup is actually better so the goal is to provide a ton of it right in the brood area even when its to cold or you have no real active foragers. Even with a feeder the nurse bees wait for someone to go get it from the feeders. with it right on the comb the move quicker. after that first brood cycle your hive is in better shape, usually the weather would be better(not this year) and your balance of foragers to nurse bees in line.
> I don't conssider them for dearths. just starups, and fall. I take all the honey in the fall, so several deeps frames of syrup will be put back. (first time doing this)
> 
> As for weight, didn't test that, but there full, frames are probably 6-7 lbs each


gmcharlie-you are giving sound advice/answers IMO but HEY! This is my daggon show here! Just kidding-I'd rather not deal with trying to answer all the questions for fear I may be completely incorrect and off base with a reply . One issue however and with all due respect I thing the 2:1/1:1 syrup ration difference is a myth. I recently read somewhere that the bees will use 2:1 syrup just as effectively as 1:1 for "compelling the bees to raise brood". I feel we beekeepers over think things AND we also tend to compare the bees to humans which is just stupid. Again-this is just my opinion but it is a strong one.



gmcharlie said:


> Crappy, a cpl warm days, and a lot of cold rain. locking the bees in for 3-4 days straight. Lost a lot of brood last week in a cold snap, just got of the phone with a guy who lost 6 new package installs because of a cold snap and no food to the cluster.


Should have filled some frames with syrup & placed them in the hive while they were nice & warm (ventilation required of course due to dew point change). What a terrible beekeeper that would allow these poor babies to suffer and die. How would you like it if this happened to someone you knew?

How about we talk about, "Urban Beekeeping"?
I'll start off by saying I'd like to rename this subculture of beekeeping, "Garbage Bees"
I think this trend is giving so many people a warped, "warm & fuzzy" Oh-I live in a city but I keep in touch with Mother Nature by keeping bees on my condo roof. They seem to collect 3000 lbs of honey per hive. It is varietal honey that comes from the nearby nectar sources that are available in my congested scum hole of a city all year. Coke, Pepsi and so many other flavors.
Give me a break. Really? Bees in a city like Washington DC? I say no frigging way these bees are finding true nectar. Why would they when they have all the corn syrup they would ever want in total abundance?
Don't get me started.
Thanks
Howard


----------



## Daniel Y

I have to wonder what flavor or coke it is bees find pollen in.


----------



## gmcharlie

One issue however and with all due respect I thing the 2:1/1:1 syrup ration difference is a myth. I recently read somewhere that the bees will use 2:1 syrup just as effectively as 1:1 for "compelling the bees to raise brood". I feel we beekeepers over think things AND we also tend to compare the bees to humans which is just stupid. Again-this is just my opinion but it is a strong one


I am not sure where you read that, but I would 100% disagree. take 30 hives and look at the spring buildups, without pollen and nectar flows less than around 10% will boom. most just basicly survive until fresh pollen and nectar arrive. A feww will take off granted, but darn few.
Try feeding Nucs honey, and 1-1 and watch how fast the difference is apparent. in 45 days the honey nuc will just be showing signs of increase, the 1-1 will be overflowing. 
I started 26 nus March 28 20 were HFCS filled, 6 were honey filled.(last years comb) I will have data next week but I can tell you right now the HFCS ones are healthier.....(or at least larger)


----------



## challenger

gmcharlie said:


> One issue however and with all due respect I thing the 2:1/1:1 syrup ration difference is a myth. I recently read somewhere that the bees will use 2:1 syrup just as effectively as 1:1 for "compelling the bees to raise brood". I feel we beekeepers over think things AND we also tend to compare the bees to humans which is just stupid. Again-this is just my opinion but it is a strong one
> 
> 
> I am not sure where you read that, but I would 100% disagree. take 30 hives and look at the spring buildups, without pollen and nectar flows less than around 10% will boom. most just basicly survive until fresh pollen and nectar arrive. A feww will take off granted, but darn few.
> Try feeding Nucs honey, and 1-1 and watch how fast the difference is apparent. in 45 days the honey nuc will just be showing signs of increase, the 1-1 will be overflowing.
> I started 26 nus March 28 20 were HFCS filled, 6 were honey filled.(last years comb) I will have data next week but I can tell you right now the HFCS ones are healthier.....(or at least larger)


This may be true for honey-vs- sugar syrup, and again I may be wrong, but I would have to say so long as pollen is available the bees will use 2:1 sugar syrup to raise brood as well as 1:1.
I never mentioned honey which is, of course, much different than sucrose syrup.
Thanks
Howard


----------



## Acebird

gmcharlie said:


> Honey is not good brood food,


:scratch: Are you sure the bees are doing it all wrong?


----------



## gmcharlie

If pollen is avalible, and no nectar that is true, but were actually talking about home bound bees. To cold to get out and forage,(especialy this year) and fresh nectar/pollen not avalible.
The point of the Post is equipment and its use, I would much prefer fresh pollen and nectar coming in abundatly. this is second best choice. a hive full of 1-1 very early in the season, when they are usualy more hive bound than not.......
I can tell you for sure that the hives we did this year with nothing in them but some honey, have gone nowhere, and the filled ones have the second deeps on about half of them. We have had really lousey bee weather...

But back to the OP......and the thoughts behind it


----------



## beeware10

never thought I would agree with acebird but the bees know what to do. any beekeeper that knows more than his bees is going to learn the hard way.


----------



## gmcharlie

If you want to live by that thought, then put your bees back in the tree, never feed them and don't check mites...... We are Farmers, we pratice aminal husbandry. insects or cows, we look for ways to get the most production. This is not a natural beekeeping post...


----------



## Acebird

Yep, I agree it is not a natural beekeeping post but I don't agree that honey is not a good brood food or that syrup is better in the long run.


----------



## challenger

Acebird said:


> Yep, I agree it is not a natural beekeeping post but I don't agree that honey is not a good brood food or that syrup is better in the long run.


I agree with gmcharlie and I find it odd that people think honey is, in any logical thought process, a better brood rearing food than sucrose syrup.
Honey is for winter reserves and is consumed to give the bees energy to keep the hive warm. It is why the bees hoard honey.
Sucrose syrup in the form of nectar or sugar syrup, combined with pollen AND who knows what other factors, tells the bees it is brood season.
This is abundantly clear as the queen slows down laying during a dearth and in the winter.
If you turn it around and ask what feed would you use to help bees get through the a cold winter would you say honey or 1:1 syrup?
What is a non intervention beekeeping approach? When I read this it makes me think of someone with a superior ability to rationalize.
How in the World can one keep bees yet not intervene? There isn't a single action in managing bees that does not envolve intervention.
I am of the opinion that if it beekeepers were not interventionists bees would no longer exist except for the rare ferral colony and AHB. 
If we didn't properly treat/manage bees they would have succumbed to pests & diseases that were introduced 30 years ago.
There is a battle going on & if you want a warm & fuzzy apiary with crystals and incense and fung shuay have at it. You are still intervening-just not enough.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> What is a non intervention beekeeping approach?



Acebird said:


> BeeC for you the intricacies of non-_intrevention _beekeeping means I do what I feel like when I feel like it. I think last year in April you told me they were just a stack of boxes so that's the way I treat them. For everyone else it means I avoid upsetting the interior of the hive if at all possible except in the spring time when some form of manipulation is necessary to avoid swarms.


No doubt, Ace is the world's foremost expert on "non-_intrevention _beekeeping"! :lpf:

:ws:


(click the blue arrow in the quote box to go to the quote source )


----------



## Acebird

challenger said:


> Sucrose syrup in the form of nectar or sugar syrup, combined with pollen AND who knows what other factors, tells the bees it is brood season.


Brood rearing starts in the middle of winter here. Good luck with syrup in the middle of winter here.
I do intervene but it is my last choice not my first choice. You can practice yoga but never be a yoga expert.


----------



## D Coates

challenger said:


> What is a non intervention beekeeping approach? .


From what I've read the "non intervention beekeeping" approach is along the lines of prefering to be a Beehaver to an actual Beekeeper. It's a new term that sounds more sophisticated and is created to avoid the social stigma of knowingly taking more honey that you should, letting hives fail when it's convienent and generally being a poor beekeeper. It is also apparently being very lonely, posting frequently, and quick to tell others what they've done wrong, with an inability to learn from ones own mistakes or understanding social graces.


----------



## Oh_Beehave

I believe that the challenge you are facing with filling the frames completely can partly be attributed to the surface tension of the water. If there was a bee-approved oil that you could imulsify into the syrup, you could reduce the tension. It shouldn't take much to do the trick, but I'm just guessing. 
An additional thought may be to polarize your water (+) and your frames (-) and let natural attraction take its course. Maybe a combination of these two priciples could lead to a fuller frame. 

Not trying to criticize, just offering some topics for investigation - it really is a creative setup that works well already.


----------



## challenger

Oh_Beehave said:


> I believe that the challenge you are facing with filling the frames completely can partly be attributed to the surface tension of the water. If there was a bee-approved oil that you could imulsify into the syrup, you could reduce the tension. It shouldn't take much to do the trick, but I'm just guessing.
> An additional thought may be to polarize your water (+) and your frames (-) and let natural attraction take its course. Maybe a combination of these two priciples could lead to a fuller frame.
> 
> Not trying to criticize, just offering some topics for investigation - it really is a creative setup that works well already.


Good post as far as I am concerned. Just to clarify-with the system I (and others I believe) built there is no issue with filling frames to better than 95%. I'd go so far as to say even higher but I'll state a conservative number is 95%.

The oil and electrical ideas interest me but now that I've conquered this beast, at least from my own standpoint, I don't wish to experiment any more.

I don't know of any emulsifying agent that I'd personally feel comfortable having as part of the feed but I like the idea of making the syrup more "slippery".

If you can provide any ideas about charging the syrup & frames of wax I'd love to hear them. I think you are suggesting a system similar to powder coating or electrostatic paint applications?
I can't see how the wax comb could conduct a sufficient charge. Perhaps the crimp wire in the foundation could but these are all separate wires so there would not be a continuous path. It would be impractical to hook wires to these embedded wires anyway but I'm listening.

Thanks
Howard


Practicing "get all the **** honey I can while still providing a healthy environment for these **** bees that have nothing else in mind than to make me work my ***** off simply to be disappointed year after year"
Now THAT is a noble effort.


----------



## Ravenzero

D Coates said:


> From what I've read the "non intervention beekeeping" approach is along the lines of prefering to be a Beehaver to an actual Beekeeper. It's a new term that sounds more sophisticated and is created to avoid the social stigma of knowingly taking more honey that you should, letting hives fail when it's convienent and generally being a poor beekeeper. It is also apparently being very lonely, posting frequently, and quick to tell others what they've done wrong, with an inability to learn from ones own mistakes or understanding social graces.


"I keep bugs in boxes better then you"


----------



## sharpdog

challenger said:


> The oil and electrical ideas interest me but now that I've conquered this beast, at least from my own standpoint, I don't wish to experiment any more.


Howard, I purchased a Kelly model and plan to use it this spring. Do you have any learnings from its actual use now. Referring specifically to placing the frames in the hive.

I run all single brood Nest, my thoughts were that I would fill 4 out of 10 combs in an empty super and place them below the brood nest, so the warm cluster could stay in the upper box where it's warm.

May simulate a honey flow by putting it below the brood nest too.

Luke


----------



## challenger

sharpdog said:


> Howard, I purchased a Kelly model and plan to use it this spring. Do you have any learnings from its actual use now. Referring specifically to placing the frames in the hive.
> 
> I run all single brood Nest, my thoughts were that I would fill 4 out of 10 combs in an empty super and place them below the brood nest, so the warm cluster could stay in the upper box where it's warm.
> 
> May simulate a honey flow by putting it below the brood nest too.
> 
> Luke


Good luck with the machine. I didn't know that Kelleys still sold this unit. 
I used it this year already as well as in the Fall. I put filled frames next to the brood comb in the fall figuring the queens were going to slow down laying and I thought it best to put the syrup in close to the bees. This past Spring I just placed them in the top deep in the outside positions. Maybe 2-4 frames depending on how the stores were. For me the bees are almost completely in the tops this time of year. I reversed all my double deeps so the queen is in the bottom with most of the brood and most of the stores. I checkerboarded the brood nest a bit but mainly I left the top with a single frame of brood. Right now it is warming up to the point that there is no danger of the bees going hungry. I did all my feeding a couple of weeks ago and now there is a hard flow on from red maple. This will last a few weeks and then there will little flow for another 2-3 weeks but by then there will be plenty of resources in the hives and I'll be doing what i can to prevent and trap swarms.
I know for certain if you ask 10 beeks how, what and where to feed the bees you will get 10 very strong "know it all" opinions. Such is the way with almost every beekeeper in this forum IMO.
Best of luck and feel free to contact me again. I don't go on Beesource much anymore but you can PM me.


----------



## Acebird

challenger said:


> I don't go on Beesource much anymore but you can email me at :
> [email protected]


You must know it all.


----------



## crofter

Kicking this up again. Popular subject this time of year! See if the state of beekeeping has changed much or not!


----------



## challenger

I don't even remember the last "update" to the unit I posted but I'm still using it. I no longer dump frames of syrup into hives in late summer/fall. It introduces too much moisture into the hives and caused me to lose many hives last year.


----------

