# Russell? Beating a dead horse?



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

A lot of drama when ordering from a huge concern. Which order do you suppose gets priority and questions answered? 4 or 4000?? Kind of answers itself doesn't it. I have 15 ordered from them. I have changed my email address since I ordered queens for delivery by, now, I thought and the site won't let me correct the address and I, like you, cannot get any contact. They were ordered literally last year. They refuse to gear up the admin staff for dealing with onsies and twosies orders. If you want the superior genetics or the promise of, you put up with it. But, it does make for a lot of anxiety. You will almost certainly get your bees, when is the question.


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## Bee-tlejuice (Oct 2, 2007)

*RTFM Russell's policies page!*

:no: *RTFM*!  Their site plainly states "... if we do not contact you about adjusting your date, then we have accepted the requested date and are already working on making it happen to the best of our ability. When ordering queens After Feb 10th, please understand that our schedules are most likely already booked... There may be up to a 45 day period between your order date and a possible ship date." <--http://russellapiaries.webs.com/policies.htm To quote some of the very experienced members of Beesource, "Welcome to the wonderful world of agriculture(AKA ag)!"  Those shipments are subject to their local weather conditions and also to any expected excessively high temperatures forecast along the expected shipping route, etc. Last year, they had to suspend shipping in mid/late summer through early fall, and tried test shipments using scrap queens -- those queens were arriving "*roasted*". These well-above-average temperatures are likely playing high havoc with their shipping schedules. Just as rain or storms will postpone *your own* scheduled beeyard activities, theirs are also subject to the weather -- IIRC, tornadoes/high winds "remodeled" their offices AGAIN this year, but they're still cranking out high-quality queens! :thumbsup:
@VanceG: Their preferred method of contact, e-mail, sometimes gets backlogged as well, but remember that Dr. Russell himself is a Beesource member; he's often on the forums late at night -- I suggest you PM him about your e-mail address change and difficulties. Good luck!


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

*Re: RTFM Russell's policies page!*

Just an observation from a queen producer. Producing queens is a very time sensitive endevor. When you graft cells on a certain day you know what day you have to set up mating nucs because you know what day those queens will emerge and nucs have to be ready. You pull those queens so many days later because that nuc has to be ready to accept the next round of cells. Once this ball is set in motion you cant stop and say lets wait till tomorrow. Rain or shine, sickness or catastrophe you must keep this schedule.

The, this is agriculture excuse will only work so far. This year has been as perfect a queen rearing year as I can imagine. Early spring with no cold snaps. Beautiful mating weather, just enough rain to keep things blooming but no 5 day dreary cold rainy spells.

I know how many mating nucs I have and I know about how many queens I can expect each week. I don't book more than that. I have a list of will calls if I have extra or I call someone from next weeks ship schedule and see if they want theirs a week early, many do.

In most businesses the customer comes first if you want to succede. I think that is especially true in beekeeping.

Johnny


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

*Re: RTFM Russell's policies page!*

I hear ya but here's my story...

I emailed regarding availabilty and a couple of questions. Got very quick replies. Got a response saying "we pull queens and ship on Mondays and Tuesdays. Let us know what date you need your queens and we can include them on that week's shipment". I did just that, asking for a shipment the week of May 7th. The week of May 7th came and went and no queens. Emailed and have heard no response. 

Just to let you know, I am not a new-bee. I actually make queens to sell nucs and understand how weather affects. But I also communicate well with folks and are just up front and honest with them. Had to call a couple of folks back early in the spring that had deposits in and just say, "I am not going to be able to sell you a nuc because I have such high demand." I didn't want to over promise and under deliver. 

If, and when, these queens show up, it will be my last with them.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

*Re: RTFM Russell's policies page!*

Another thread mentioned the death of 2 employees in the last week or so. If they didn't have bad luck they wouldn't have any at all.

Rod


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## kincade (Feb 3, 2011)

*Re: RTFM Russell's policies page!*

I mentioned it here as well but my post was deleted. No idea why? I was just trying to pass the word along.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

*Re: RTFM Russell's policies page!*

I mentioned it as well. Poof. My post was gone.


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

*Re: RTFM Russell's policies page!*

seems like quite a few post are going poof!?
Is there any anti bee keeping groups out there?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

*Re: RTFM Russell's policies page!*

Quite a few . . . more so on this site than on average in my opinion . . .


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

*Re: RTFM Russell's policies page!*

I agree, I lost my ad in the For Sale section and No, it was not a new post!

*Help Mods, something is going on?*


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

*Re: RTFM Russell's policies page!*

I doubt the mods are able to help . . . there is only one person on a forum that has the ability to completely remove posts and/or threads . . . other than a hacker . . . and I don't think a hacker is selectively removing posts about status update on Russell's site . . .


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## SpeckledPup (May 25, 2011)

*Re: RTFM Russell's policies page!*



kincade said:


> I mentioned it here as well but my post was deleted. No idea why? I was just trying to pass the word along.




Here is where you posted the info, it is post 28 and it shows where you deleted post 29 which you say was a duplicate

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?268483-Russell-Queens&p=799115#post799115


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## SpeckledPup (May 25, 2011)

*Re: RTFM Russell's policies page!*



Specialkayme said:


> Quite a few . . . more so on this site than on average in my opinion . . .


Here is a link to yours. it is post #35

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?268483-Russell-Queens


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## the kid (Nov 26, 2006)

*Re: RTFM Russell's policies page!*

RTFM! Their site plainly states "... if we do not contact you about adjusting your date, then we have accepted the requested date and are already working on making it happen to the best of our ability.

I would think to expect a reply would be the norm ,, other wise its like talking to a wall ,, how do you know they got your request ,, the way things go today its a shot in the dark if they got it or not ,,, bet if you were short check book and they had already shipped ,, they would reply


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

*Re: RTFM Russell's policies page!*



SpeckledPup said:


> Here is a link to yours. it is post #35


I put it in more than one thread, as there were more than one thread about Russell's operating at once.

The post that I mentioned got deleted occurred in this thread, not a different thread, prior to my original post number 8. I was originally post number 3 in this thread. Vance G then stated in the original post number 4 that he was sorry for the comments he made in post number 2 after hearing the horrible news. All of that occurred last night BEFORE Bee-tlejuice replied at 3:53 am.

Of course, I'm going off memory since the entire record was wiped clean. But it wasn't just my post that got removed from this thread.


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## baldwinbees (Mar 2, 2010)

correct me if I'm wrong....doesn't he have apiaries in a dozen states?how does a tornado in 1 apiary stop the show when the others weren't affected???


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## giant pumpkin peep (Mar 14, 2009)

Most of the yards in others states are selection yards, and not so much production yards. They are capable of producing queens but not at the output of the yards in Ms. Atleast thats my understanding. Also, try to keep sending emails, for me it was secod time is the charm.


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

He isn't certified to sell bees in Mississippi, at least according to the Mississippi Department of Agriculture and Commerce: 

http://www.mdac.state.ms.us/departments/bpi/pdf/bpi_honey_packed_bees.pdf

I have several serious and honest questions about the Russell operation that I have never seen adequately answered:

1. Can he have production yards in a state in which he isn't certified to sell? If so, why not register in Mississippi? He sells and ships bees all over the country, but not in the state that he breeds them?

2. If he produces most of his queens in Mississippi - how can he claim that he has northern acclimated queens? Does he transport whole yards of hives that have overwintered in the north to Mississippi each year for the sole purpose of breeding queens? Or is he producing queens at a number of different yards all over the country.

3. If he has yards all over the country, producing all of these different types of queens - how is he able to select queen mothers, evaluate hives, do the grafting, ensure that his drones are present in isolation yards, etc. in each and every yard? Even the most prolific queen breeders with the best reputations offer only 2 (or rarely 3 different strains of bees). The time commitment managing just one or two queen producing yards close together is pretty high - especially if you are being as careful about genetics as the Russell operation claims. Is he present, supervising or conducting the grafting and raising of queens at every one of these yards? Are you getting one of his queens or a queen produced by some foreman or tech who he trained firsthand, or perhaps second or thirdhand.

4. Finally, I don't mean to sound callous, but - if a car really did swerve across the highway, hit a bee truck AND kill two people in his operation - how come I can not find ANY mention of it in any online press sources. Bee trucks ALWAYS make big news when they have problems. Where is the link? I have found minor bee truck accidents (that didn't involve fatalities) still on the net going back to 2008 - where is this one?

For whatever reason, emotions run pretty high when it comes to Russell and his operation. People who don't even know him personally seem to have a lot invested in him. I don't understand it - perhaps spending $40 or more for a queen has something to do with it. 

At any rate, if you have FIRSTHAND knowledge (such as speaking to or working for Russell directly) - I would appreciate any clear answers to these questions that you could provide. Please though - I have read all of the opinions, speculation, rumor and conjecture that has been previously posted. Lets not repost all of that - lets get some facts about the operation from people who actually know firsthand.

Mike


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

NDnewbeek said:


> He isn't licensed to sell bees in Mississippi, at least according to the Mississippi Department of Agriculture and Commerce:


I'm actually surprised how short that list is. Think about it. None of the large operations are on that list: Glenn, Kona, Hardeman, Jester, Kelley, either of the Weavers, Gardner's, H&R, Purvis, Rossman . . . the list goes on.

Unless that list is only meant to be people _*IN*_ MS that can sell to people in MS . . . but that seems like a dumb list to me. And if that's the case why couldn't Russell just "ship" his queens in from a different state?



NDnewbeek said:


> 1. Can he have production yards in a state in which he isn't licensed to sell?


I think that's more a question for the department of agriculture . . . or an agricultural attorney.



NDnewbeek said:


> 2. If he produces most of his queens in Mississippi - how can he claim that he has northern acclimated queens?


If you want the answer straight from the horses mouth, go check out the forums on his site. He has explained it before.

If you want a summation, he won't provide it here. But I will. He sells queens to people all over the country. Some of those individuals run commercial operations in the north. He has arrangements with some of those commercial operations that they buy queens from Russell. Then the best queens that make it through the winter, and have shown themselves to be the most winter hardy are returned back to Russell (usually for a discount on future orders, or for a trade of other queens). Russell then takes these northern queens, that appear to be the best of the last shipment, at least as far as winter hardiness goes, and mates them together. He then re-sells those bees to northern operations, and repeats the process all over again.

Doc has a very good understanding of bee genetics and climate zones in the US. He knows what strains dominate the feral population. He has been known to cross certain strains with others in the attempt to create a very local strain. For example, he was explaining to me at one point that he took a carni cross with an AMM cross (and added something else) and shipped them to Eastern TN for their mountainous region. He explained how the AMM dominated the feral population in the area (spreading from the coast of NC) and the carni helped with the mountainous region. I don't remember what the additional cross was, or why it was added, but a few years ago I bought out a hobby beekeeper in Eastern TN. I took his hives home and explained their tendencies to Doc. Without knowing where I went (But knowing I lived in NC) he guessed the region that I bought them from. A very amazing skill.



NDnewbeek said:


> 3. If he has yards all over the country, producing all of these different types of queens - how is he able to select queen mothers, evaluate hives, do the grafting, ensure that his drones are present in isolation yards, etc. in each and every yard?


That I do not know.



NDnewbeek said:


> Is he present, supervising or conducting the grafting and raising of queens at every one of these yards?


I know that he is not directly conducting the grafting, raising, and evaluation of EVERY queen that his operation produces. He will be at certain yards on certain days to oversee production. He tries to take a very hands on approach, and likes to be the one approving whether the queen is up to par for shipment, or if she should be culled. Due to the size of the operation, I know that isn't possible for every queen.

The exact specifics I don't know.



NDnewbeek said:


> 4. Finally, I don't mean to sound callous, but - if a car really did swerve across the highway, hit a bee truck AND kill two people in his operation - how come I can not find ANY mention of it in any online press sources. Bee trucks ALWAYS make big news when they have problems. Where is the link? I have found minor bee truck accidents (that didn't involve fatalities) still on the net going back to 2008 - where is this one?


If bees were not on the truck at the time of the accident, it's likely you wouldn't be able to tell what collision it was (especially if all we know is that it occurred somewhere between Oregon and Ohio . . . and Doc was three states away). I don't know if bees were on the truck or not. Just a thought.



NDnewbeek said:


> For whatever reason, emotions run pretty high when it comes to Russell and his operation. People who don't even know him personally seem to have a lot invested in him. I don't understand it - perhaps spending $40 or more for a queen has something to do with it.


For many of us, it isn't the $40 queen that has anything to do with the loyalty. It's the customer service we received. In the past the Doc has helped me out so much, and has asked nothing in return. While I was still in school all I could afford was two queens. I told the Doc that I wanted to start breeding, but I didn't have the funds to get any breeder queens, or equipment, or mating nucs, or any of the like. Doc sent me a set of different kinds of grafting tools (so I could see which one I liked the most) a variety of different kinds of queens (Carni, Buckfast, and Cauc) that I didn't pay for, just to increase the genetic material of which I could select from. When he found out I didn't have enough equipment to run anything more than a few mating nucs, he offered to send me some cardboard nucs, and some stocked nucs, free of charge, to help me get a boost. I denied the last, as I thought it was too much.

Seeing someone that gives so much, and cares so much about the beekeeping industry, it hurts when people say hurtful things about him. I can understand being frustrated about queen orders (other than the "I ordered a queen and said I want it on the 7th and it's the 14th and I still don't have it" mentality), especially this year after all the bad luck. But when individuals say he is conning them, or stealing their money, or doing a dis-service to them individually or the beekeeping community, that's just hurtful. All he wants to do is help people, and the beekeeping industry, as well as pass on his knowledge so others can get into (or prosper in) this amazing activity.



NDnewbeek said:


> At any rate, if you have FIRSTHAND knowledge (such as speaking to or working for Russell directly) - I would appreciate any clear answers to these questions that you could provide.


All the above comments were made after having first hand conversations with the Doc and/or his staff. I have not seen his operation in person, I have not worked for him, and I have not shadowed him. If you want to say it's all speculation and conjecture, I'm fine with that, but as it stands I think that's the best information you are going to receive on this site. Certain individuals ran the Doc off . . . and are working on running off his employees . . . so they are not likely to return any time soon to answer your questions.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Specialkayme said:


> I have not seen his operation in person, I have not worked for him, and I have not shadowed him. If you want to say it's all speculation and conjecture, I'm fine with that, but as it stands I think that's the best information you are going to receive on this site.


I think its safe to say that there is a lot we don't know about his operation. Nobody ever seems to have any first hand eye witness accounts of anything thats happened over there. 
Lets start with the facts as we know them: He has a lot of loyal customers who seem fine with any delays that they have encountered getting bees because they are convinced that the superior genetics they will be getting make it worth the wait. We know that he has a really nice web site where you can place orders for bees and other items and pay for them at the time of ordering via pay pal. Bee orders (and payments) are apparently accepted at least a year ahead of delivery. We know that a lot of people have waited a long time for orders and are running out of patience because they have been unable to contact anyone. We know some people think the Russell bees are great, some refer to them as just another bee, and some have had poor success with them. We know that when Mr. Russell was posting on here he seemed articulate and knowledgable about all things beekeeping. We also know that he has claimed to have suffered through, tornadoes, floods, cold spells and now apparently a personal tragedy all in just over a year. 
Thats essentially what I know, everything else seems to be conjecture. I also have spent some time trying to find some information out about this current tragedy and have come up empty. While doing it I was haunted by the realization that I didnt know whether to hope that I found something or hope that I didnt. I am sorry but this is all seems a bit strange to me.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I'm curious why we never hear from or know who the huge beekeepers are who order thousands of queens and nucs from him. Seems like one at least would have come to his defense.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

THose large orders are too busy running big business to be stooging around on this forum! What we have here are retirees and government employees and beginners leavened by a few working people. Some major mismanaging going on there and I don't need much more of the drama myself. It looks like my Memorial day plans will be scratched because queens might be coming in. I can do something to correct this another year. Just don't kick someone when they are down. Late bees are nothing new! My first bees were singles ordered for early May that showed up as two or three struggling frame splits in decrepit equipment in the Middle of June! Nothing new here, except a place to whine to others. A guy by the name of Lawler from Valley City N.D. administered that fleecing! Ancient history and this will be too.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Seems to me we'd know who some of these big beeks are. There are several large beekeepers on this forum and I know others that visit occasionally but don't post. No one seems to know who they are. Not saying they don't exist, just seems strange to me. And that's not kicking someone when they're down. That's just asking a honest question.


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## ShawnL (Apr 21, 2012)

According to Victoria, SKC's will ship "end of this upcoming week/beginning of the next". We'll see.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

camero7 said:


> I'm curious why we never hear from or know who the huge beekeepers are who order thousands of queens and nucs from him. Seems like one at least would have come to his defense.


I have wondered the same thing. For what its worth I am not aware of any. Most of the large operations that I know of are using cells in the south. There is, however, a pretty big market post almond for mated queens among pollinators who would miss out on a contract by letting their bees be tied up too long waiting for queens to mate, also a lot of beekeepers who choose to bring their bees directly back to their northern location after they are released from the almonds and make up their losses via mated queens. Hawaiian queen producers have tapped into this mostly April market because it is difficult for southern producers to have the numbers to meet the demand.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

All of the large beekeepers on the east coast that I'm aware of use their own queens or generally use Miksa's cells. Of course the big beekeepers are generally not on the east coast. I did inquire of a well-known large beekeeper in the midwest and he had never heard of Russell.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

Well i ordered 100 Italians this spring for some splits to try them and see if they lived up the the hype, i waited for them two weeks after they were supposed to be delivered i then finally was told about the storms and that they would not be here till a week or two, so not being able to wait a month from when they were supposed to be split, i told them to cancel and refund my money. So far im still waiting with no response to my emails, if any one from russells reads this please contact me i need my 2000$ back thank you. From what i hear they have had a lot of problems and i understand a few delays but how about a response to an email is that too much?
Nick Groenhof


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## giant pumpkin peep (Mar 14, 2009)

> 4. Finally, I don't mean to sound callous, but - if a car really did swerve across the highway, hit a bee truck AND kill two people in his operation - how come I can not find ANY mention of it in any online press sources. Bee trucks ALWAYS make big news when they have problems. Where is the link? I have found minor bee truck accidents (that didn't involve fatalities) still on the net going back to 2008 - where is this one?
> If bees were not on the truck at the time of the accident, it's likely you wouldn't be able to tell what collision it was (especially if all we know is that it occurred somewhere between Oregon and Ohio . . . and Doc was three states away). I don't know if bees were on the truck or not. Just a thought


Heard from doc. There were no bees on the truck as they where going to get their first load. It makes me sick to think someone was thinking the tradegy was made up.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

giant pumpkin peep said:


> Heard from doc. There were no bees on the truck as they where going to get their first load. It makes me sick to think someone was thinking the tradegy was made up.


I am not sure that accusation is actually being made at this point. When a beekeeper and his son are killed in an accident its a pretty big story especially when it happens in such a small industry. Its only natural curiosity to wonder who the victims are and who else might know them. Its also pretty easy to document and a little odd that no one has yet been able to do it. One way or the other its just really upsetting.


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## GWDawg1 (Apr 4, 2011)

These people - Russell - have more excuses than can be counted. They have more destructive weather than anyone I have ever heard of, and I live in MS. A well respected member of the beekeeping community here in MS told me last year to stay away from Russell. Take it for what it's worth.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

If he produces most of his queens in Mississippi - how can he claim that he has northern acclimated queens?

I believe in a PM he mentioned working with a beekeeper in cherries in Door county(the little finger on the hand of the state), who would evaluate his stock. 

Crazy Roland


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

I ordered 1 sunkist queen from him on March 7th this year. Recieved it the first week in April, no problems, alive, in good shape and was shipped on a monday as promised. His website/forum is a great place for a alot of knowledge and insite into bee genetics .


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

4. Finally, I don't mean to sound callous, but - if a car really did swerve across the highway, hit a bee truck AND kill two people in his operation - how come I can not find ANY mention of it in any online press sources.

The news never reports all the news. they report what fits in their time slot. Even tragic events. Most of them by far, are never reported.

Bee trucks ALWAYS make big news when they have problems. 
Oh really? and just exactly how are you aware of every accident involving a bee truck? And exactly how did you confirmed that every single one has been reported? I know of at least three this year alone here in Nevada that never had a peep said about them in any news story printed radio or television.


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

Specialkayme, in response to the approved list in MS. Every beekeeper in MS who produces queens, packages ,or nucs for sale must be inspected by MS Dept of Ag. They will give you a certificate of inspection to accompany each shipment. It looks like this.

CERTIFICATION OF INSPECTION FOR PACKAGE BEES
AND / OR QUEEN BEES
MISSISSIPPI DEPT. OF AGRICULTURE & COMMERCE
BUREAU OF PLANT INDUSTRY
P.O. BOX 5207, MISSISSIPPI STATE, MS 39762
THIS IS TO CERTIFY THAT THE APIARIES OF:
BROKE T APIARIES
JOHNNY THOMPSON
13340 HIGHWAY 488
PHILADELPHIA, MS 39350
(601) 562-0701
HAVE BEEN INSPECTED AND FOUND TO BE APPARENTLY FREE FROM AMERICAN & EUROPEAN FOULBROOD. PARASITIC MITES & THE SMALL HIVE BEETLE ARE ENDEMIC IN MISSISSIPPI. SAID APIARIES ARE FREE OF AFRICANIZATION BASED ON 100% OF QUEEN MOTHERS WERE ANALYZED USING THE FABIS FRESH WEIGHT METHOD. THESE APIARIES WILL BE INSPECTED AT REGULAR INTERVALS. THIS CERTIFICATE EXPIRES MARCH 15, 2013.
JOHN G. CAMPBELL, DIRECTOR


If you purchase bees from out of state they should be inspected in the state they were produced in and a health certificate should accompany the order.

Johnny


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

Specialkayme - 

Thank you for your for your answers, I appreciate it. I do have a couple more questions/observations that they have generated:



Specialkayme said:


> I'm actually surprised how short that list is. Think about it. None of the large operations are on that list: Glenn, Kona, Hardeman, Jester, Kelley, either of the Weavers, Gardner's, H&R, Purvis, Rossman . . . the list goes on.
> 
> Unless that list is only meant to be people _*IN*_ MS that can sell to people in MS . . . but that seems like a dumb list to me. And if that's the case why couldn't Russell just "ship" his queens in from a different state?
> 
> ...


I think that Broke-T answered this one.




Specialkayme said:


> If you want the answer straight from the horses mouth, go check out the forums on his site. He has explained it before.
> 
> If you want a summation, he won't provide it here. But I will. He sells queens to people all over the country. Some of those individuals run commercial operations in the north. He has arrangements with some of those commercial operations that they buy queens from Russell. Then the best queens that make it through the winter, and have shown themselves to be the most winter hardy are returned back to Russell (usually for a discount on future orders, or for a trade of other queens). Russell then takes these northern queens, that appear to be the best of the last shipment, at least as far as winter hardiness goes, and mates them together. He then re-sells those bees to northern operations, and repeats the process all over again.


You have to become a member of his forum in order to view most of the material. I am not interested, so I can't get the info.

With respect to the strategy though - how much of overwinter success then is genetics and how much is beekeeper management? Does Russell ensure that every beekeeper he buys back from runs bees in the north the same way (open vs. closed bottom board, upper entrance or no, sugar feeding or no, wrapping hives vs. no wrapping, etc.). If he doesn't - then he can't sort out whether overwinter success is due to genetics or management. As a scientist with a Ph.D. - he would know this. 

As a northern beekeeper - I have pulled some hives through winter, but I wouldn't consider their queens 'northern acclimated'. They just got through because I babied them. Do any two beekeepers manage their hives the same? Probably not. IMO (and I have the same degree as Russell) - if he isn't controlling for all the different management strategies out there - then it is scientifically unsound to claim that the queens are genetically 'northern acclimated'. It would be more accurate to describe them as having survived X# winters in the north.



Specialkayme said:


> Doc has a very good understanding of bee genetics and climate zones in the US. He knows what strains dominate the feral population. He has been known to cross certain strains with others in the attempt to create a very local strain. For example, he was explaining to me at one point that he took a carni cross with an AMM cross (and added something else) and shipped them to Eastern TN for their mountainous region. He explained how the AMM dominated the feral population in the area (spreading from the coast of NC) and the carni helped with the mountainous region. I don't remember what the additional cross was, or why it was added, but a few years ago I bought out a hobby beekeeper in Eastern TN. I took his hives home and explained their tendencies to Doc. Without knowing where I went (But knowing I lived in NC) he guessed the region that I bought them from. A very amazing skill.


True - but even the most accomplished geneticist is not able to predict which genes are passed to progeny, which will be expressed or even be able to tell you all of the factors that result in the expression of a gene. Making an organism isn't like combining ingredients for a soup. What you describe above is not science, it is more akin to magic (which is why, I suspect, there are so many who are critical of his operation). Without actually raising those types of queens in that region and evaluation their performance over (at least) several seasons - to many, it is disingenuous to claim that you now have a bee 'adapted' to the mountains of Tennessee. 




Specialkayme said:


> I know that he is not directly conducting the grafting, raising, and evaluation of EVERY queen that his operation produces. He will be at certain yards on certain days to oversee production. He tries to take a very hands on approach, and likes to be the one approving whether the queen is up to par for shipment, or if she should be culled. Due to the size of the operation, I know that isn't possible for every queen.


Then are you really getting one of HIS queens? There seems to be a lot of 'gray' in his operation. He doesn't evaluate his 'northern acclimated' overwinter survivors personally, they just get sent back to him if they live through a northern winter, he doesn't evaluate all of his Sunkist or Carni's or AMMs, etc. Are consumers then really benefiting from his education and experience if his operation is so big that he can't supervise or run it all directly? To be sure, this is probably the way many big operations are run (Gardner's, Wilbanks, etc.). But then, they also don't charge premium prices for their queens and they aren't selling queens on the reputation of a single individual. Customers recognize this trade-off. Again, I think that this might be why there is so much criticism.




Specialkayme said:


> If bees were not on the truck at the time of the accident, it's likely you wouldn't be able to tell what collision it was (especially if all we know is that it occurred somewhere between Oregon and Ohio . . . and Doc was three states away). I don't know if bees were on the truck or not. Just a thought.


True also - my impression from the original posting of this information in another thread was that bees were on the truck. That assumption though may be in error. Still, if a link becomes available - I would like to see it. As a skeptic in most things, it seems to me that his operation has had a particularly long string of bad luck. 





Specialkayme said:


> For many of us, it isn't the $40 queen that has anything to do with the loyalty. It's the customer service we received. In the past the Doc has helped me out so much, and has asked nothing in return. While I was still in school all I could afford was two queens. I told the Doc that I wanted to start breeding, but I didn't have the funds to get any breeder queens, or equipment, or mating nucs, or any of the like. Doc sent me a set of different kinds of grafting tools (so I could see which one I liked the most) a variety of different kinds of queens (Carni, Buckfast, and Cauc) that I didn't pay for, just to increase the genetic material of which I could select from. When he found out I didn't have enough equipment to run anything more than a few mating nucs, he offered to send me some cardboard nucs, and some stocked nucs, free of charge, to help me get a boost. I denied the last, as I thought it was too much.
> 
> Seeing someone that gives so much, and cares so much about the beekeeping industry, it hurts when people say hurtful things about him. I can understand being frustrated about queen orders (other than the "I ordered a queen and said I want it on the 7th and it's the 14th and I still don't have it" mentality), especially this year after all the bad luck. But when individuals say he is conning them, or stealing their money, or doing a dis-service to them individually or the beekeeping community, that's just hurtful. All he wants to do is help people, and the beekeeping industry, as well as pass on his knowledge so others can get into (or prosper in) this amazing activity.


I understand this. My graduate advisor was much the same way. I would get plenty upset myself if I heard people disparaging his work. I am sure that what you say about Russell's nature and dedication to beekeeping is true. However (and I say this in an effort to be constructive, not disparaging) - even good people/scientists can have poor methodologies, bad management practices, make improper assumptions (even I may have done that above!), etc. I think for many of the critics - there are things about Russell's operation (some I have pointed out above) that just don't pass the 'sniff test' (and I will admit to being one of these). Now that he is having problems filling orders, this serves are verification of suspicions (this doesn't necessarily apply to me -but I do find it curious). 

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my questions.

Mike


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## beekeeper120 (Jul 30, 2011)

Well I have had good luck with Dr. Russell. I ordered an SKC in Oct 2011 got my queen May 3rd. I did have some concern when orders that were placed in January 2012 were delivered before me, But a quick email from them told me it was software issue and my order was shipped on May 1. 

When the SKC queen I recieved did not start laying until the 17th day I recieved it, I became a little worried, 2nd year beekeeper and first queen I purchased. Victoria assured me I did everything by the book, and to give her (queen) some time to get used to her new home. I was also told that if the queen fails she could have a new one in the mail Monday if needed. I even did some research and discovered its not all that uncommon for a new queen to take 18 days before she starts laying. So I knew Victorias answer was correct. I even recieved the email on Sunday about 5 hours after I sent it Sunday morning. How many businesses answer emails on Sunday.

So far they get a thumbs up. Sure communication could be better, but each time I ever sent them an email I have always gotten a response. Cant speak for everybody but sometimes its how you communicate that wins the race. If you start off an email with a rant and cant correctly communicate your issue, what do you expect when you dont hear back from them.

Happy beekeeping all


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Mike,

It's a pleasure to actually be able to discuss this, rather than just hurl insults back and forth. This doesn't happen that often on this site. Thanks for the pleasure of the conversation. Let me see if I can answer whatever I know:



NDnewbeek said:


> I think that Broke-T answered this one.


I think I was more surprised at the way MS does things than the list itself.

In NC you need to be inspected to sell bees inside the state, and you need to be approved to ship bees into the state. NC doesn't trust the state it comes from, as who knows how they inspect their bees (if at all).

http://www.ncagr.gov/plantindustry/plant/apiary/documents/PermittoSell2012.pdf

Admittedly, Russell's isn't on the list for NC, lol. I don't know why. You gotta see the humor in that. 



NDnewbeek said:


> You have to become a member of his forum in order to view most of the material. I am not interested, so I can't get the info.


I understand. But if you want it straight from the horses' mouth, that's where the mouth is. Otherwise you may have to deal with my potential "speculation, conjecture, or second hand material." Just a matter of disclosure, that's all.



NDnewbeek said:


> how much of overwinter success then is genetics and how much is beekeeper management? Does Russell ensure that every beekeeper he buys back from runs bees in the north the same way (open vs. closed bottom board, upper entrance or no, sugar feeding or no, wrapping hives vs. no wrapping, etc.). If he doesn't - then he can't sort out whether overwinter success is due to genetics or management.


That I do not know. Not being from the north, I didn't push it or ask too many questions. It didn't apply to me, I just found it interesting.

However, please don't think that what I explained above was the ENTIRE process. It was a summation. I'm sure there are other moving parts, evaluation methods and the like. I know he is keeping several of them a secret, for business purposes. I asked him once for what he selects for in the bees he sells, and he explained the method and the items he selects for (too long to recount here). When I asked for a sheet, like a log book, of how he keeps track of it, he said he would talk to his attorney on whether he could share it. His attorney told him not to. To release the information destroyed his trade secret. He thought about doing it anyway, but decided he paid his attorney for a reason, so might as well listen to him. I agreed. 



NDnewbeek said:


> if he isn't controlling for all the different management strategies out there - then it is scientifically unsound to claim that the queens are genetically 'northern acclimated'. It would be more accurate to describe them as having survived X# winters in the north.


Again, what I said was just a summation. I don't think he wrote a paper about how he does it, nor wrote down the scientific methodology for selecting northern acclimated queens. That doesn't mean there isn't any scientific methodology. It just means that I, as a customer and an avid reader of what is available, don't have that particular piece of information. I know there is more to it than "bees survived X winters in the north." I don't know what the full length of that process is though. I know he has hives up north (through mutual friends). I do not know how long they come down south. 

I know I would have a hard time saying a queen is northern acclimated if it spent one winter (or two or three) up north, then spent the past six moths down south. However, I would be hard pressed to say that a bee is NOT northern acclimated if the breeder queens (and colonies themselves) spent 10 months out of year up north, for the past 20 years. I don't know that's the case, I'm just saying.



NDnewbeek said:


> What you describe above is not science, it is more akin to magic (which is why, I suspect, there are so many who are critical of his operation).


Please. You are really stretching there.

I gave an example, in one sentence, of one particular situation. If you really think he took an AMM queen and a Carni drone and put them in a jar to create a special strain of feral bees, you would be right, that is magic. 

I took months worth of work and years worth of data and put it down in one sentence. To say that's the entire process is a farce, and you and I both know that. 



NDnewbeek said:


> Then are you really getting one of HIS queens?


As much as any other operation, yes. If you go on his website and order a queen, at no point does he say that he opens every single hive to inspect every single queen. None of the other large breeding operations say the same either. If you order a queen from Rossman's, Rossman himself MAY have reviewed your queen, but my guess is he personally didn't. Same is true for Milska's (probably spelled that wrong).



NDnewbeek said:


> To be sure, this is probably the way many big operations are run (Gardner's, Wilbanks, etc.). But then, they also don't charge premium prices for their queens and they aren't selling queens on the reputation of a single individual.


I'm not certain they are charged at that much of a premium. They arn't sold at $18, granted, but the majority of them aren't sold for $60, $80, or more. Most of his queens sell in the $25-30 range. That isn't a premium in this industry. It's actually kinda basic. It isn't the cheapest, but it isn't the most expensive either. 

The more expensive queens (the moonbeams and AMM) do have more hands on experience with Russell directly. They also have more work behind their genetic selection (I know the moonbeams took SEVERAL years to perfect, and the AMM's took much longer).

I don't think you pay the prices because the queen was touched personally by the Doc. If that were true, I think there would be some cause for alarm. He isn't King Midas. 

If you think you are paying more, then you are doing it for the selection methods he put down. For the supervision he provides (and the cheaper the queen, the less supervision, obviously). You are paying what the market will bear, based on supply and demand. I don't think it has anything to do with the Doc's personal grafting techniques. 

I also disagree that he is selling bees in HIS name. Russell is a family name. He is a third generation beekeeper and breeder. I think he is selling in his father's name just as much as he is in his own. His father passed away. It's clearly on his website. I think he is selling in the family name just as much as either of the two examples above. I don't think there is any more of an assumption that the Doc has any more personal involvement in the individual bee that gets shipped than either of the two commercial operations that are listed above. If I'm incorrect, then they are assumptions. We all know about assumptions.



NDnewbeek said:


> As a skeptic in most things, it seems to me that his operation has had a particularly long string of bad luck.


Skeptic or not, I would agree with the latter part of that sentence.



NDnewbeek said:


> However (and I say this in an effort to be constructive, not disparaging) - even good people/scientists can have poor methodologies, bad management practices, make improper assumptions (even I may have done that above!), etc. I think for many of the critics - there are things about Russell's operation (some I have pointed out above) that just don't pass the 'sniff test' (and I will admit to being one of these).


A healthy level of criticism is natural and good. Asking the right questions is important. But asking them from the right person is also. The 'sniff test' you mention is based on conversations that you didn't have with the company, or with an employee of that company. That should be kept in mind. The company and it's employees are discouraged from visiting this site (not from providing answers, just from providing them at this location). When asking the questions, you should think about how you are asking them in order to think about how you are receiving the answers. If you disagree with the answers you receive, you should consider the source. If you think the methodologies he uses (or my explanation of them) might be far fetched, there are two possible reasons. One, the methodologies really are far fetched. Or two, my explanation and summation of them is (or probably better put, my explanation and simplification is over simplified, and something is lost in the translation. I don't have a PhD . . . just a JD. My degree is based on critical thinking and writing skills, not on scientific methodology. While I took graduate level courses in beekeeping, entomology, and bee breeding, I do not have a degree in it. That should be kept in mind, in the interest of full disclosure.).

The Doc spent alot of time on this site. He now views it as a waste of time. He would get questions, to which he would provide answers, and individuals would call him a liar. Then ask the question again. Skepticism is important, no doubt. But when it came to the level of "two plus two equals what?" . . . "four" . . . "LIAR!!! . . . now what does two plus two equal?" . . . it becomes less of an informative question and answer session and more of something akin to a KGB interrogation. I'm obviously stretching here, but the point is still same. Individuals would want a particular answer. When it was provided and it wasn't the answer they wanted, they would just ask the question again. It repeated so many times that the Doc stopped providing answers. But the questions and accusations still come. So now he doesn't answer questions unless it's on his site. The reason behind that is he knows if you are REALLY interested in finding the answers you'll take the time to register and spend some time on his site. It isn't a publicity thing, it's a dedication thing. If you don't care what the answer is, you just want to ask the questions, you'll probably not be willing to spend the time to register. 

That isn't meant as a harp on you Mike. But it is something to think about. If you really want the answers, you know where to go. Registration isn't that hard, we both know it. It doesn't take that much time, and it isn't like your email address will be flooded with spam. And then you can have the answers to most, if not all, your questions provided straight from the source. But if you arn't willing to do that, then you get what is provided to you. I provide the answers on this site as a courtesy to Doc. I know he largely views it as a waste of time, and the more I write the more I think he's correct.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

"However, please don't think that what I explained above was the ENTIRE process. It was a summation. I'm sure there are other moving parts, evaluation methods and the like. I know he is keeping several of them a secret, for business purposes. I asked him once for what he selects for in the bees he sells, and he explained the method and the items he selects for (too long to recount here). When I asked for a sheet, like a log book, of how he keeps track of it, he said he would talk to his attorney on whether he could share it. His attorney told him not to. To release the information destroyed his trade secret. He thought about doing it anyway, but decided he paid his attorney for a reason, so might as well listen to him. I agreed. "

If you look back into some older threads, this whole selection process was already discussed by Rob. Personally it's a waste of time trying to discuss anything beyond what member's are experiencing firsthand because we're having to hear everything filtered through your personal biases and limited knowledge, as you have already stated.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Barry said:


> Personally it's a waste of time trying to discuss anything beyond what member's are experiencing firsthand because we're having to hear everything filtered through your personal biases and limited knowledge, as you have already stated.


The beauty of the forums. Don't like what I have to say? Don't read it.

Of course, you could have heard it without the "personal biases and limited knowledge" if you hadn't injected your own biases in running the source off. Oops. Did someone say something bad about big brother?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

A fine example of your personal bias. Robert has been free to make his own decisions about where he engages in discussion. Evedently he has the best of both worlds. His own private forum and you playing interference/shortstop here. One thing that no one can control is each consumers experience and that, as with all businesses, will dictate success or failure of a business.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

His name is Robert.


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## seal62 (Apr 17, 2011)

Refunds ?


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Barry said:


> A fine example of your personal bias. Ron has been free to make his own decisions about where he engages in discussion. Evedently he has the best of both worlds. His own private forum and you playing interference/shortstop here. One thing that no one can control is each consumers experience and that, as with all businesses, will dictate success or failure of a business.


I have never meet Dr Russell but very much enjoyed his contributions to this forum in the past. I check his website from time to time. It is full of wisdome, history and knowledge. I believe that the hits to this forum have dropped since he left - many would agree that his input made for a better informed discussion.

About the job of a mderator. It is up to each moderator if he/she wants to be up front or quiet in the background. What is certain is that a moderator should not take sites and with due respect - I'm observing from a distance - barry may has choosen to overstep this boundary.
I would like to see the facts: have family members or workers been killed/injured? If this is the case I believe we all would understand the lateness of some bees.
As I read it there are many very happy customers. Having been in business for over 30 years I understand that we all make mistakes. 
The botton line as I see it is that we should all " cool it" ( I think that is what you call it in the US?) and wait for the facts.
A bit of wisdome about the job of the moderator:
"A forum moderator oversees the communication activity of an Internet forum. He monitors the interchange of contributors and makes decisions regarding content and the direction of threads. Moving discussions from one section to another to keep topics organized is also a common job for a forum moderator.

If the tone of a forum becomes hostile or starts to move in the direction of personal attacks, the forum moderator usually has the discretion to lock the discussion to prevent heated, interchanges. He may also be able to hide discussions he deems unworthy of further discussion. Conversely, topics he feels deserve further examination can be posted indefinitely by the moderator even if they garner no comments.

Moderator duties are as diverse as the forum topics themselves. Some moderators are virtually invisible; they surface only when situations arise that do not seem likely to resolve themselves. Other forum moderators are always there, ready to intercede at the smallest hint of discourse. Public forum moderators often have to enforce many rules of conduct and decorum, as public contributors tend to communicate without abandon, which can sometimes upset other commenters."

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-forum-moderator.htm


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I've always read two things that consistently describe Russel's Apaiaries on this forum and other forums:

1. He produces some of the best queens in the United States

2. If you order from them you're more than likely not going to get what you ordered on time, you probably won't get an e-mail concerning your order, and you probably won't be able to reach them.

I would love to have some Russel queens but I'm never going to buy anything from them because of all the negative feedback I've seen regarding their business practices towards the general small scale consumer. I have nothing against the guy its just a matter of how they conduct their business practices. Regardless of if you think Russel runs a great business or not, search the name on the forum and see how many times the above 2 points are made. When many, many different people say they ordered some queens from him and their queens haven't arrived, no e-mail, no correspondence, and they can't contact the business, it would make me stop and reconsider ordering from them (which it did).


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Last summer I ordered 5 queens from Russell, with an expected shipping date two weeks out. Never happened, so I delayed shipment until this April Things happened, and I kept my patience, because I heard about needing it in dealing with Russell. They notified me a few days before shipment, to be sure the shipping date was ok. I was out of town, and could not reply. Because I did not reply, they did not ship on the date in question. We arranged a secondary shipping date, and I have the queens in the hives now.

I have had delays from every breeder I've dealt with. It goes with the territory. Though I must admit with Russell's operation it has been a bit more trying. But I hung in there, because of reading of those delays and problems on the forum. I'll know this time next year if the genetics were worth the mild aggravation. 

Would I order from him again? Depends on how these queens do. 
Regards,
Steven


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

NDnewbeek said:


> To be sure, this is probably the way many big operations are run (Gardner's, Wilbanks, etc.). But then, they also don't charge premium prices for their queens and they aren't selling queens on the reputation of a single individual. Customers recognize this trade-off. Again, I think that this might be why there is so much criticism.


I am not sure a couple of bucks difference is a "premium" price for Italian queens.
Only 2 lines of their production queens price at or above the 40$ mark and half the lines are below 30$. 



StevenG said:


> Would I order from him again? Depends on how these queens do.
> Regards,
> Steven


That is that attitude that seems to be missing in many of these post and a more productive one at that.


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## LampBurner (May 4, 2011)

Hang in there and try to be patient even is spite of the lack of ability to communite compared to most other places of business; espeasually if they are still withen their policy time frame. I ordered a single queen the latter part of last month. Out of I think about 5 e-mails I wrote, all but 2 were replied to. I wrote them (nicely) Friday, inquiring about a concern I have regarding my irregular work schedule and me going out of town the 2nd week in June, that if the queen was shipped shortly before I left, I might not have time to install before I had to leave. This morning I had a e-mail from Victoria at Russell saying they could send my queen out today if that would be ok. I ammiediatly wrote back saying "that would be good and thanks". This afternoon I had an e-mail from Pay Pal saying my order had been shipped with tracking # and all, and it would arrive 22nd or 23rd. Their "up To" 45 days to ship policy time frame for me is not even up until June-6th. If there are any of you out there that are way past Russells policy time frame, and you haven't heard from them, I don't know; but if not, bear with them. I know I am glad I did.


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## Scottsman (May 1, 2011)

Amen, Specialkayme ! I'm a big fan of the Doc's. He has always been more than willing to help me and I never met the guy. I've been a member of his site since I started keeping bees and find his knowledge and advice invaluable. It is certainly not because I'm " Big Business" , I've bought exactly four queens from him. No one else has ever offered to replace a Queen that failed because of my new bee mistakes. He also was willing to take the time to set me on the right path to successfully starting my little operation during last years drought. Doc Russell certainly deserves more respect than what he's getting here, don't blame him for pulling out.


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## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

I had issues with getting queens on schedule from Russell's last spring, it was frustraiting because I was waiting while on expenses in South Carolina. the queens were about 1 week late but did arrive in good condition. One year later I can't say those sunkist really stood out from other stock. As for me, consistancy in customer service is extremely important. I have a problem with businesses of any kind that don't communication effectively. It seems to me that Russell's might need to increase there operations staff to better handle correspondence. It almost seems like they make a choice to contact some people and avoid others. IMO you can have the greatest product in the world but if you can't match it with great customer service- I will pass and use someone that is on the same page


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Vance G said:


> What we have here are retirees and government employees and beginners leavened by a few working people.


Gee Vance, thanks for such well thought out commentary. Where would us retirees, government mules, and beginners be without such thoughtful and sage advice from the few working people here to guide from our ignorance to the light. Truly grateful.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Sorry if I hit too close to home. AB Reality sucks my friend.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Vance G said:


> Reality.


The reality I see is rudeness and self-promotion, and yeah that sucks too.


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

Was asked by a couple of folks to post the final outcome of my order....
After a couple of emails regarding when I would be traveling and my hopes that the queens would not be sent the week of June 3-10, I did receive them late Saturday the 2nd. 2 queens alive along with all attendants, one dead along with all attendants dead. Glad to get them but the timing of leaving at 7 AM on the 3rd made and placing them on the 2nd a real hassle. 
June 2nd: placed the 2 live queens in hives. One in what was my queenless cell builder that I had used to make queens for some splits, the other in a queenless 5 frame nuc from a split.(NOTE: I use the NICOT system for queens and splits, so I do know a little about raising queens) Emailed Russelll and attached picture of dead queen and attendants regarding a new queen. Got a quick response that the new queen would go out the week of June 11th. 
June 11th: Checked new queens. Both released but not laying yet. Supercede cells throughout the nuc. Pinched all off. 
June 15th: 5 frame nuc, queen gone. Nowhere to be found. Placed frame of eggs/larvae in box in hopes they make new queen. Other box, still no eggs layed. Also, still no sign or call from USPS regarding the replacement queen. 
We shall see!!!

I will say this...While I have gotten frustrated at times, overall, the communication with Victoria has been reasonably prompt and pleasant. I think if you don't go in ranting and screaming, they will respond you in kind. Victoria has been a pleasure to work with.


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## kincade (Feb 3, 2011)

My Russell queen arrived a few weeks ago and took about 16 days to start laying. Now that she has started she is laying a beautiful pattern and a ton of eggs.

Overall the experience has been good and both Victoria and robert were good to deal with.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Threads like this (or any of the numerous others with the same subject and object) are an excellent reason to start raising your own queens. I heartily recommend it. Don't be afraid of grafting, it's really not that bad. 

Now that I've said that, let me be sure to unsubscribe from this thread in case it lights up again.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> Threads like this (or any of the numerous others with the same subject and object) are an excellent reason to start raising your own queens. I heartily recommend it. Don't be afraid of grafting, it's really not that bad.
> 
> Now that I've said that, let me be sure to unsubscribe from this thread in case it lights up again.


I had a look at your lovely website. Lots of interesting information - thanks
max2
PS the photo no 3 is showing a box with the metal lid nailed down ( about 24 nails) I found that 4 nails ( one on each corner) does the job and is much easier to fix when the rims rot.


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

Well dangit...After checking the yard containing the Sunkist queens, I have to add another update....

All Sunkist queens are gone before laying. They were released by the hives some time between June 2nd and June 9th. I saw each of them June 12th. June 15th one was gone. June 18th the remaing hive's queen is gone. Again, neither ever started laying. 

I emailed Russell late yesterday regarding the DOA queen that I was told would ship June 11 and informed them of the unproductive queens that have been "gotten rid of" by their hives. We'll see....

The bummer part of this is that I just wanted to spice up the genetics in my yards. The Sunkist reputation is a good one. My yards, right now, consist of Minnesota Hygenics and "swamp bees" from swarms I've caught around an old yard near a swamp.


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## beehonest (Nov 3, 2011)

Solomon Parker might be younger than most of us, but that doesn't mean you can't learn something from him, just raise your own. I don't care if you have the best product in the world, (which most of the time turns out to be hype)if you can't take care of the customer, the one one who is paying your paycheck, you don't get my business.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I don't know if the number is 'most'. But I did get a good early start, the year after high school. That lets me be young and also have nearly a decade of experience.

I was afraid of grafting for a long time. For some reason, it seems like there's this huge push to want to raise queens without grafting, but grafting is super easy and raising queens with the Harden method is very efficient. Add Queen Castles to the mix as mating nucs and the recipe is complete. I recommend everybody have at least 5 hives so you have as small a chance as possible of losing them all at once. I've finally reached my equilibrium at 20-25 hives and now the honey harvest is awesome. Of course, weather helps. And I've done the whole thing treatment free.

One of the best parts is people drive from hours around, beating down my door to buy my bees. Okay, slight exaggeration, but the furthest one drove four hours. I'm a huge proponent of local bees and queens. Don't wait in anticipation for months on end for queens that are going to arrive late anyway. I'm coming to be of the opinion that if you aren't going to drive there to pick them up, you don't need them. Also, buy nucs, not packages.

I have nothing against Mr. Russell. But when you buy bees and queens from somewhere far enough away that they need to be mailed, things like this are going to happen. Maybe he could communicate better, maybe he's doing well enough and it's just his customers getting antsy. I hate to use buzz words, but crowd-source, decentralize, localize, community, and it's way more fun to do it yourself or with close friends.

Graft, you might like it.


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

I do raise my own using the NICOT system. I do it for the purpose of selling nucs and selling extra queen cells to friends locally for $7 each. Just wanted some genetic diversity.


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## blackdog (May 6, 2010)

all i can say is this, i ordered a small number of queens from Russel on Feb 15th 2012, i paid via paypal at the time i paced the order and have heard NOTHING from Russel to date! I have sent several e-mails and tried to call numerous time with no responce. What is going on here? Can this comay fulfill thier obligations or NOT. How many other people are in the same predicament? Is this company for real ? or has it reached Fim-Flam status?


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

beginning to think that black dog i used to hear from them a bit now i have gotten no correspondence from them in the last month. That really sucks in the beekeeping world most are very trust worthy. Nick


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## garyk1398 (Jan 25, 2011)

This whole deal is very strange to me. I (like most) don't want to be burnt by anyone and/or company, so not 100% comfortable ordering on-line. Having said that, I ordered 3 queens from Russell back in May. I had them in my hands about a week later. Thankful, yes, confused...even more so!


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

garyk1398 said:


> I had them in my hands about a week later.


 How have they been performing?


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## garyk1398 (Jan 25, 2011)

schmism said:


> How have they been performing?


The one (a Sunkist Cordovan) I installed immediately is just doing very well.:thumbsup: I had to bank two of them (Cordovan) for a few weeks in a queen-right hive with an exluder installed. One died while banked, sold the second one and hear she also died:s.


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

As the original poster for this particular topic/post, I am all for it just dying.

The reality is this: They have bad customer service, communication,sometimes(not always) a questionable product and it's ethically questionable that they are still accepting $$ for new orders while having not fulfilled orders from past months. For those of us that have experienced one or even all of these, we would all tell a new "customer" that's experienced this: get in line, RA's probably not going to fix it, stay away from the RA forum cause his "supporters" will eat you alive in convincing folks that it's your fault for complaining/questioning and just move on. The only piece of "victory" you will experience is that some will read this forum, choose not to order and avoid the pain we have all experienced.

And I'm done discussing RA in any way. I am chalking it all up to "don't believe the hype just because someone has a cool website..."


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

theriverhawk said:


> And I'm done discussing RA in any way.


I'll believe it when I see it.


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## TIMER (Apr 17, 2011)

I can not comprehend how anyone can continue to defend this company.
They have taken so many, myself included, to the cleaners.
I must say they put together a great marketing scheme.
Too bad they couldn't back it up.


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## bnm1000 (Oct 12, 2011)

Specialkayme said:


> I'll believe it when I see it.


theriverhawk - as you said........


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

So if I order a few queens from Russell now, will I get them?


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