# Troubling Honey Bee Shortage in California



## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Not sure if the "shortage" has really panned out yet. There are a lot of dead hives around but the resounding cry of frustrated almond growers has not yet reared its head in a massive way.


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## bhfury (Nov 25, 2008)

I know a commercial guy not too far from here who has received serval calls from brokers asking him to bring his bees out to California. He hasn't sent bees that way in several years and doesn't sound like he will do it this year.


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## MichaelShantz (May 9, 2010)

How much has the price offered by almond growers to pollinators gone up? There must be people on Beesource who know this.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

bhfury said:


> Usually when we’re short of nectar, we’re short on pollen, and honey bees need both. So, 2012 was a bad year for bee nutrition.”
> Malnutrition is one of the stressors of colony collapse disorder, the mysterious malady first noticed in the winter of 2006 that has decimated one-third of the nation’s bees every year. Some beekeepers have reported winter losses of 90 to 100 percent. .


Just thought this might need a second read. Good luck to all this spring.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Just thought this might need a second read. Good luck to all this spring.



This wouldn't be a subtle ad for sub would it Keith? Not even sure why you would need one besides a candid shot of one of your or my hives with the lids off. 

Let it be known to all. We have dead bees but the ones that survived are currently in pretty good shape.  Thanks in part to about 10 pounds of sub per hive from the guy with the blue boxes as well as up to 12 gallons of syrup per hive from April on. The poor ladies who would have been all dead or in PPS otherwise. Currently are on a roll.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Hmmm, for the folks that don't know that's 120 pounds of syrup, or the equivalent of a reasonnable honey flow. That's a bit more than we would feed. 10 pounds of sub, seems a like a lot, but we feed even moreof it. Either way if we did not feed heavily we too would have poor or dead hives.

Jean-Marc


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

jean-marc said:


> Hmmm, for the folks that don't know that's 120 pounds of syrup, or the equivalent of a reasonnable honey flow. That's a bit more than we would feed. 10 pounds of sub, seems a like a lot, but we feed even moreof it. Either way if we did not feed heavily we too would have poor or dead hives.
> 
> Jean-Marc



All the rain went north in winter of 2012 and with it the honeyflow. Lots of new frames and a poor / low flow makes for lots of feeding.


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## LSBees (Sep 24, 2009)

We have been offered $150 for 6 frames, and have heard some say they are offering $175 for 6 frames. We will see what reality is tommorow.


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

We are getting $225.00 for 6-7 fame singles. Well, we are not walking with that but that is what the grower is paying.


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## Matt Beekman (Dec 15, 2007)

:applause:


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Trevor Mansell said:


> We are getting $225.00 for 6-7 fame singles. Well, we are not walking with that but that is what the grower is paying.


Like winning the lottery the friends and relatives will soon be coming out of the woods looking for a handout. 

BTW when was that big dinner you promised all you beesource buddies when you hit the big time. 


Is this for one hive or five loads. North, central, or south?


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

LSBees said:


> We have been offered $150 for 6 frames, and have heard some say they are offering $175 for 6 frames. We will see what reality is tommorow.


A grower I know that has a long standing relationship with his bee guy paid $165 this year, from what I've been reading around the web, there is a pretty good shortage of hives and the prices are climbing over $200 a hive, would have been a good year to have some extra hives in reserve for the big guys, heck even if I had a handful of strong hives I could have made enough to buy more wooden ware!


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## UVBee (Jan 5, 2012)

I'm still getting calls everyday by brokers and growers coming up short. So far the biggest was a block of 200 acres calling for 400 hives... lucky the bloom is holding out a little longer this year down south.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

If the growers start cracking boxes I hope they are happy with what they see inside. Driving around today seemed to be some pretty sorry flight going on in and out of some "boxes" considering it was as hot as it was. Lot of smaller places still don't have anything in them yet? Buds busting on the end of our driveway. With almost 70 tomorrow the flowers ought to be on a roll by the time the rain shows up early next week.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I got a call the other night hearing about 4 framers getting $160.00. It almost made me drive down south and load my bees on a semi bound for CA. Geeze my crappiest bees are most likely 4 frames.

Actually I thought it was a bit out there offering $160.00 for 4 framers. Well until I read this thread today. Oh well there always next year!


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

There must be a serious shortage of bees. I'm a very small sideliner in Indy, and have been getting offers to pollinate almonds. I'm too far north to play that game.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

well after last year and one load sitting in a orchard that hD 3 blooms per acre and beez going downhill with nothing to work my bees are in orange groves in sunny florida. if almond growers want bees they need to rease when there is no viable bloom. ive got the best bees ive ever had...what didnt kick the bucketm. most all are 14 to 16 frames or more... just staying on east coast.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Im with you. Mine should be strong and looking great.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BeeGhost said:


> , from what I've been reading around the web, there is a pretty good shortage of hives and the prices are climbing over $200 a hive, would have been a good year to have some extra hives in reserve for the big guys!


Me thinks this will bee short lived.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Me thinks this will bee short lived.


More bees coming in from Florida or elsewhere? Not really that short? Blue boxes with magic bees coming in from Canada?


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

Magic bees from Canada are on there way, since we can't legally import bees on comb they will be 4 lb packages ,air freighted


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Bulk bees from Canada in Feb?? Man there really is global warming..


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Does Canada allow Australian bees in?


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## MichaelShantz (May 9, 2010)

This may be a rather naive comment, but how high does the price have to go before almond growers decide to replace some trees with thistle, rosemary, etc, etc and keep some hives around throughout the year.


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## jkola404 (Jan 8, 2008)

Interesting quote from Randy O. 

"In general, most beekeepers' bees look poorer than normal. Lots of junk
being delivered to the orchards. Some unscrupulous beekeepers splitting
hives into worthless queenless splits simply to make count for boxes with
bees flying out of the entrance.

Scuttlebutt is that bee supply will be short, with some growers getting
nasty surprises this week. This will cause hard feelings, since nut prices
are set to rise substantially, and growers want to set a better crop than
last season"


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

I'm not an almond grower or pollinator, but my guess would be that even with higher prices of hives there is still more money in trees in the ground than tearing them out to put year round bee forage. As long as there is a high demand for almonds, there will be more trees in the ground and more bees needed. I'm curious to see what happens next spring, will the shortage of bees turn into a surplus driving down the current prices? 

I'd like to hear the thoughts of the commercial guys.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Seems to me (and I am an outsider looking in) listening to many of the beekeepers here on this forum, they are getting comfortably paid around the $165 per hive mark. I am also gathering these beekeepers are supplying hives in top notch shape. But Im also hearing alot of talk of $200 per hive plus from the speculative gossip. 

Put the two together and yes, the fringes will be operating in that boom bust business environment, while the rest sit comfortable all the way through


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

MichaelShantz said:


> This may be a rather naive comment, but how high does the price have to go before almond growers decide to replace some trees with thistle, rosemary, etc, etc and keep some hives around throughout the year.



If the price of Almonds stay where they are currently at the growers "should" be able to afford about $400-$420 per acre for pollination to give the bee guys the 7% + or - of the gross we have been averaging the last long while. $210 a hive is not proportionately out of the statistical norms.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Honey-4-All said:


> If the price of Almonds stay where they are currently at the growers "should" be able to afford.


It really has nothing to do with what the almond grower can afford, But, rather what the keeper is going to charge.


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## MichaelShantz (May 9, 2010)

It sounds to me like the law of supply and demand is working just fine in the almond pollination business. Somebody should tell Chicken Little.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Supply and demand is right. Next year the situation could reverse itself and an oversupply could result in strong hives sitting. But if the droughts continue and varroa keeps devastating hives, next year could repeat this one. Lots of variables. Take your best guess and plan accordingly.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

loggermike said:


> Take your best guess and plan accordingly.


LOL... outstanding post there, Mike. What we really have is a supply side issue. The demand (almonds) is set, we know how much wood is in the ground & going in the ground & we have four years before they need bees, so it's not like it's an unknow. What's the big unknow is the keepers ability to keep hives alive. Now I would rather go to Reno than bet on what the keeper is going to do.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

Got a question here, do the small farmers with say 10 acres or so of almonds go in a co-op with other nearby small growers and hire a large beekeeper, or do you think they find their own bees? I would like to do small pollination jobs next year and I am wondering if it would be best to go through a broker or find another venue to find a small grower and grow a yearly relationship with them, and maybe if I go to sideliner status they would put word of mouth out?


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

The smaller grower plant next to the big grower so they don't have to rent hives. Sorry bees really don't know which grower has paid for there usage.:scratch::digging:


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

The Honey Householder said:


> The smaller grower plant next to the big grower so they don't have to rent hives. Sorry bees really don't know which grower has paid for there usage.:scratch::digging:


Well I assumed that bees do what bees will do, but I also believe that for crop insurance they also have to have atleast two hives per acre, correct?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Keith Jarrett said:


> LOL... we have four years before they need bees, so it's not like it's an unknow.)


With the price of nuts there are bees in trees that went in the ground 2 years ago. Not many but some. The growers are pushing the chems and training on the trees from the gitgo. Get them producing quickly helps recoup the big money spent throwing them in the ground in the first place. With commodity prices up, CRP acres way down, and fields planted to the edge with no wildflowers around for competition compiled with all the acres of almonds going in its not going to be long before our expenses get so high that the growers will scream to open up from Canada or even worse south of the Border. My guess is 5 more years and the rumbling will begin in earnest.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Phil, just a short eleven months ago guys were searching for an open spot to put bees, many left to go back home with nothing in their pockets.

plant'em and they will come.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Keith Jarrett said:


> plant'em and they will come.


I like it.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>>growers will scream to open up from Canada or even worse 

easy now cowboy


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

Opening the Canadian border would sure take the pressure off ND.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

no kidding, I like things the way they are


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Nick Noyes said:


> Opening the Canadian border would sure take the pressure off ND.



Do you really think this will be a two way street if the northern border opens up? Doubt it. You must have more faith in our boys doing trade negotiations than I do. Come to think of it I have almost come to the conclusion for the first time in my life that swapping the dudes in Ottawa for the limp wristted mealy mouthed pansies representing us out of DC might not really be a fair trade for the Canadians.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

ah, are you kidding? even if we painted all our hives Red and White before we sent them down, you still would be hard pressed to see any sitting in the groves. Like Nick said, it would just be more foraging territory for the US migratory beekeepers, our small time ops would get lost in the shuffle

But, our border stays shut for one reason, and one reason only, and that is to help keep guarantee your Mexican boarder stays shut. 
Your big lobby US lobby groups would of had our boarder open years ago, if they really had the intention to do so


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxPRHXgYVlk

http://www.invadecanada.us/


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

ha ha ah ha ha 

>>We're letting Canada keep the North. It will from now on be known as the smaller version of Canada, "Canadi" <<
but thats where the oil is , and that is the part everyone is claiming on us, ha ha ha , guess we will be left floating a drift in the Hudson . . .


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

EastSideBuzz said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxPRHXgYVlk
> 
> http://www.invadecanada.us/


Grab your pitchforks and head north everyone! It shouldn't take more than aboot (he he) a week to breach the beaver fortresses.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

And buy some shirts. They even have a store to get swag about invading Canada http://www.cafepress.com/invadecanada


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

how well do ya-merican's fight in snow shoes , . ?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Some of us use them pretty often lately:no:


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

C'mon, the ******** in Wisconsin have gun racks on their snowmobiles.

Crazy Roland


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

no need to use snow shoes, come to ny, the snowmobile trails connect on the Canadian border, from what I can see you can enter from Penn. and go almost due north, all we have to do is get some of the gun racks from Roland. Just not sure how many hives we can carry back on the return trip.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

back to the shortage. here is a post on bee-l about the economics of feeding the hives for almond production.

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1302&L=BEE-L&F=&S=&P=165743

Beekeepers that attempt to satisfy almond growers demand for strong bee
colonies are faced with a difficult choice: spend the necessary money to
produce such colonies, or rent weaker colonies at a reduced price. According
to UC Extension Apiculturist, Eric Mussen, “four frames of bees is the size a
Central Valley California colony is likely to be (if it survives) when it is not fed
extra syrup and protein during the year.” (Jan/Feb 2010 Newsletter, From the
UC Apiaries). Dr. Mussen estimates that beekeepers must spend $120/colony
to provide 4-frame colonies and $200 to $220/colony to provide 8 to 10
frame colonies (these cost figures are likely 10% higher for 2013 than they
were in 2010). A beekeeper is better off, probably far better off, renting a 4
to 6-frame colony for $150 than renting an 8 to 10-frame colony for $200.
Even with record almond pollination fees, building high bee populations that
continue to consume expensive feed during the winter (both before and after
almond bloom) does not make economic sense for many bee operations.
With varroa mites, viruses and diminished bee pasture taking an evermounting
toll on honey bees, today’s beekeeper feels fortunate if he can
cover operating expenses, let alone attain an ROI (a term foreign to many
beekeeping operations).


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I would like to see a breakdown of those numbers that Dr. Mussen gave back in late 2009. Feed expenses have gone up considerably since then. Anyone know if he ever published any more specific information as to how he arrived at those figures?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Things are so bad that I got a call from someone in CA looking for bees from me and my hives are in SC. And my friends who send bees to CA from SC did so weeks ago.

No, I did not send any. Even though $200.00 per colony is attractive.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I think it's a balance. Hard to shake out and split those 4 framers. Costs seem high to me unless that includes labor, transport, etc... and not just feeding costs.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

JRG13 said:


> Costs seem high to me unless that includes labor, transport, etc... and not just feeding costs.


Dr. Mussen estimates that beekeepers must spend $120/colony
to provide 4-frame colonies and $200 to $220/colony to provide 8 to 10
frame colonies (these cost figures are likely 10% higher for 2013 than they
were in 2010). <--- my take on this was that normal costs for a normal hive(not in blue boxes) was the $120, so the extra $80 dollars was the feeding, and I would think you would include fuel, feed, time, and purchasing patties and hfcs. Now that may be high if you live in cali. but from out of state?


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## manddhoney (Dec 22, 2012)

I was present at our Central Valley Beekeeping Association Meeting this last Thursday. It was mentioned that a beekeeper is advertising $210 for 8 frame average bees for 2014 Almond Pollination; another beekeeper is going to charge $185 for 2014 Almond Pollination. 

These issues of 2013 will only continue into 2014 in my opinion due to "lack of rain", "lack of forage", increased almond plantings. Whether the price of Almonds is great or not, currently $3.50+ pound, we beekeepers must charge according to our cost per hive knowing that Almond Pollination is close to 90% of our income for the entire year.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

If almonds are 90% of your income according to dr. Mussen, ur losing money.


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