# Requeening package bees



## KevinR

Hard to say on the winter season for Northern states... But in "theory", you could order a new queen for arrival a month+ after your package has been installed/started. You could pull a frame of brood and the queen into a nuc box and place the new queen in a cage with candy or under a screen to get her accepted.

The only concerns are if the nuc has enough time to build up and if the new queen will be accepted. I've never had a lot of problems getting a new queen accepted, but sometimes the nucs don't build up fast from a 1 frame split.

Someone in the northern states would have to answer if you'd have enough time to accomplish this.. In the south, I'd have no concerns doing it, assuming I got my package started soon enough.


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## winevines

Tycobb said:


> In the past when using southern packaged bees I have had a low winter survival rate. I have had pretty good success with local (New England) nucs that have already wintered once. My question is, as I am starting again after a long hiatus, having sourced a package of bees from Georgia (via Better Bee), is it a good idea to requeen with a northern bred queen?


Check out Overland's work on this very question. They found that requeened packaged bees did better than packages. They are now in a 3rd study.
http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNE10-694&y=2010&t=1

http://www.nesare.org/Dig-Deeper/Pictures-Stories-and-Video/Video-vault/Winter-hardy-bees


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## Honey-4-All

Question is : Do the bees do better cause its a Northern queen or do they do better because the hive is going into the winter with a younger queen?


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## Michael Palmer

Would two months younger really matter?


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## Lauri

This was a great study...and I agree with it 100%. 
But let's break down the details a little and understand WHY the Northern queens out performed the southern ones.

I don't think you can really compare a Northern bred queen and one that has come from a Southern package after pollination services are complete. Their genetics, conditions under which they have been reared, previous work load and exposures are totally different. Not to mention the time of year they were mated.

The overwintered Northern queens are not only bred for cold climates, they are predisposed to the long inactive period we endure overwinter. But this long inactive period gives the Northen queen advantages too. Extended brood break for natural mite control and conservation of semen stores. They aren't usually reared near commercial crops and all the exposures that go with them. If the study queens were the same age, a northern overwintered queen that has laid a eggs for 6-12 weeks, then shut down all winter is now more mature and _just coming into her prime_, compared to a queen bred for pollination that has been in service for months laying hundreds of thousands of eggs now coming into the _back end of her prime_.. 
They are expected to produce all summer and overwinter once again before assessment.

Some of the younger southern queens are mated very early in the spring when days are short and weather is unpredictable. It is due to demand from the consumer for early packages that this is done, but you can't compare that to a small Northern queen rearer that has the luxury of getting their queens mated in the summer months. Unless I just missed it, it was not clear in the study the age of the southern package queen. I'll have to go back and look.

They are both technically 'Queens' but the southern queen out of an early package is exposed to and reared under more stressful conditions. And don't forget, they are bred to achieve one thing..large early build up of population for pollination. Northern queens are many times bred for hardness, reliable controllable production for the hobbyist/honey producer and overwintering adaptability. 
I think there was one group left out of this study. Southern queens reared as the Northern Queens usually are. Mated in summer months and away from commercial crops with the same prior work load. I think you would find the obvious difference in the amount of brood raised during periods of dearth and wintertime consumption of feed resources would still give the advantage to the Northern queens. 

While _*this study shows very well what management the consumer should consider with newly purchased Early spring packages*_, it is not a fair -all things equal-assessment of queen quality simply due to geographical differences. 
It's clear requeening with Northern stock is _highly advantageous_ for the beekeeper. But there are many reasons why, that I don't think were addressed in the study. You have to also consider the nature of the southern queen. Instead of considering the Northern's to be_ better_, realize the southern's are simply just doing what they were bred to do. They are_ different_

Just my opinion of course 

I'd like to see a formal study on the overwintering differences between:
Established southern nucs with southern queen, established southern nucs requeened with a nothern queen and northern overwintered nucs. (Not nucs made recently from packages)
Some with no treatment, some treated for mites, some with correctly timed brood breaks and strictly organic methods for mite control.

In some respects, I've already done the study, like many others that have figured out how to successfully overwinter colonies.. Would the results _really _be surprising ?
A study like this would have to consist of a substantial number of control groups and several beekeepers in different regions to account of slight management differences, exposures and different genetics of the test subjects. I'd like to see the colonies followed for at least two years and note the supercedure rate and longevity of the queens involved.

Who is up for the challenge? Maybe We should apply for a grant.


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## danno

how many southern packages for how many years are you basing your queen failures on? No argument here that northern queens COULD do better but it makes no sense to squish a newly mated southern for a northern. I have had good success with GA, CA and HI queens here in MI. If you set on using northern find a bee keeper near you and buy racks of brood not packages.


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## Michael Palmer

Lauri said:


> The overwintered Northern queens are not only bred for cold climates, they are predisposed to the long inactive period we endure overwinter.


The queens used in the study to re-queen weren't overwintered. They were raised in the second half of June. How do I know? I raised the queens that Overland used.

I agree about the package queens being raised when the conditions aren't the best, and that those queens aren't selected for what we need in the north. I'm not so sure about the acclimatized part. I would like to raise some queens from package queens, and see how they did compared to the queens I raise from my own stocks. That would be a better test of nurture vs. nature.


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## winevines

Just to clarify as my guess is folks were more prone to read the abstract and not the details.
There were three groups.
Colonies started from Southern raised packages and their queens
Colonies started from Overwintered nucs from the North East (i.e., overwintered queens)
Colonies started from packages and requeened with Northern raised queens that Spring/Summer


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## Beeonefarms

Very interested on learning how this turns out as a brand new bee haver.. What im understanding so far is Younger queen going into winter with correct amount of stores... a bit of luck and she( they ) should do alright coming out of the frosty wisconsin winter ..No matter where she started from ( location) 

Randy 

One Honeybee at a time....


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## Honey-4-All

Michael Palmer said:


> Would two months younger really matter?


My experience says Maybe.. Dependent on where on the calendar the two month lie and that relationship to maximum egg shooting days for that queen region. This partly depends on location of course. A possible way to test if it was the mating time vs the egg shooting time would be to integrate a test where early mated queens were repressed of their egg laying capabilities and then put back into production alongside a summer mated queen.


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## KevinR

I'd agree with Micheal Palmer. It's been my experience that early season queens from the south/packages are more than a little lack luster. Some of them are outstanding, but I'm not sure if the amount of duds, drone layers, supercedures out way the early time.

I understand the excitement of wanting to get buys, but if all things were equal... I'd rather have May/June queens than Mar/April.


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## Tycobb

Thanks for the quick reponses everyone! 

As far as your remarks on timing Kevin, they caused me to give myself a headsmack...and thank you for that. My package is coming last week of April/first week of May - and for whatever reason (my guess is the well worded prose on the website) I had locked in on one particular apiary, white oak, whose queens will be ready on May 15th for shipment. The greatest concern for me was bees stressed from traveling arriving on the 10th of may being requeened on the 16th, which I'm guessing is less than optimal. If I am correct in this thinking, then I must resource northern queens to give the hives a chance to get going before I start fiddling with them.

As far as you, whitevines, thanks for bringing the overland study back to my attention...as I've been out of the game for a while, I've found myself binging on bee information. Sometimes that leads me to hop around a bit, and while doing so, I had seen the video on youtube (and as a side note I reccomend apple tv to every...youtube takes on a whole new life on a 40" screen - bees everywhere!) but had failed to actually sit down and digest the written study. It was definitely a help thankyou.

Speaking of youtube, if you are the same Mike Palmer that lectured at the 2013 National Honey Show, I just wanted say that I really enjoyed your lectures about keeping bees in the frozen north and the sustainable apiary. Everyone north of the Mason Dixie line should watch them! Honored to have your input.

Lauri, great breakdown...What we need is an Apiary working in each of the hardiness zones AND in each time zone across the country to take into account all of the country's seasonal variances to work on your concept for the study...then we could get all of the answers in one fell swoop. That would be one heck of a grant proposal!

Thanks again to everyone. Sorry if I missed anyone, my triplets (5 next week) are running around the house and I get to do things like this in bits and pieces!


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## Honey-4-All

KevinR said:


> I'd agree with Micheal Palmer. It's been my experience that early season queens from the south/packages are more than a little lack luster. I'd rather have May/June queens than Mar/April.



Not so sure the dates have anything to do with it beside there relationship to their location. In queen raising the old adage that " the bees know best" would be a great rule to following in timing our queen raising. I have always been under the impression that queens raised to be hatched at the time when hives in my area are generally known to throw their primary swarms of the spring is a good guiding principle in deciding grafting dates. The bees know when the best food is out there for raising the best queens. That date might be April 10 in my area and a month later for Lauri and three weeks after that for Mr. Palmer. Its less about the dates than it is about the timing in relationship to ones location. 

On a side not I think that many of the southern queens ( including CALI) are done at least two to three weeks prior to what I would call "optimal dates"


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## Lauri

It will be interesting this year as the Cali queens/rearing conditions have been and likely will continue to be, supplimentaly fed for an extended period of time. Daylight temps are above normal, yet day _Length_ is still short. Drones should be a plenty. 

I guess we will see the results in a few months.
And as we typically do, we will _really _see the results next year, when all things considered can be evaluated..


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## JSL

Honey-4-All,

Very well said! There is an optimal time period each year for raising queens. It can vary by several weeks from one year to the next. Watch the bees, they will tell you when it is time, not the calendar.

Joe


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## winevines

Tycobb said:


> Everyone north of the Mason Dixie line should watch them!


Everyone South of the Mason Dixon line too (how DID I end up here?) should watch them and all of the videos that will ultimately be uploaded to that site by MP and the other lecturers. Found here: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiOtIebcpY0Zqqma0H5wLYQ


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## Tycobb

winevines said:


> Everyone South of the Mason Dixon line too (how DID I end up here?) should watch them and all of the videos that will ultimately be uploaded to that site by MP and the other lecturers. Found here: http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiOtIebcpY0Zqqma0H5wLYQ


lol, just a reference to a part of Mr Palmer's speech on overwintering in the far north and working to become selfsustaining (other than reordering southern packages each year). No offense intended! :lookout:


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## Michael Bush

>is it a good idea to requeen with a northern bred queen? 

Yes.

>I think it is, but the timing in the first year of their new home is making me a touch nervous. The package will arrive some weeks ahead of a new queen

Which is fine.

> and I'm definitely not planning on leaving them in their travel box.

Of course not. Install them when they get there and install the queen that came with them.

> I'm worried that introducing a new northern queen in their first season will be just as detrimental as trying to winter on southern queen stock...Is there a time which makes more sense? Early, later, not at all?

June or July would be a good time to requeen them. During a flow is always best for any beekeeping adventure… If you can’t get a northern queen, you can always dequeen them just before or during the flow and let them raise their own.

>how many southern packages for how many years are you basing your queen failures on?

Several hundred spread out over several decades.

> No argument here that northern queens COULD do better but it makes no sense to squish a newly mated southern for a northern.

I usually sell mine to someone locally very cheap.


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## Michael Palmer

Honey-4-All said:


> Its less about the dates than it is about the timing in relationship to ones location.


Of course. It's about available and dependable resources, and it's about nurse bee population.


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## Michael Palmer

> No argument here that northern queens COULD do better but it makes no sense to squish a newly mated southern for a northern. <


It always makes sense to squish a queen that isn't performing well...whether she be raised in the north or the south or wherever.


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## My-smokepole

My thought is pull the southern queen and a frame of brood. Put her in a nuc box put new queen in package hive . Set nuc on top of hive. If you are lucky you end up with a hive and a nuc. If the nuc make it all the better. Or you can combine it later on
David


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## jmgi

Michael Palmer said:


> It always makes sense to squish a queen that isn't performing well...whether she be raised in the north or the south or wherever.


I'm surprised you said that, lol, if she's not too awful bad you could throw her into a nuc box with a frame or two of bees and let her be a slightly deficient brood factory.


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## Fusion_power

> let her be a slightly deficient brood factory.


Brood factories are cheap in summer, dead nucs are expensive any time of year. A dead nuc was worth the value of the nuc on the market and since it is dead, you have to replace it so you are out that much money (value) if you have to replace it. In other words, a bad queen costs you twice as much.


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## jmgi

Fusion_power said:


> Brood factories are cheap in summer, dead nucs are expensive any time of year. A dead nuc was worth the value of the nuc on the market and since it is dead, you have to replace it so you are out that much money (value) if you have to replace it. In other words, a bad queen costs you twice as much.


Yeah right. Unless she's laying a shotgun brood pattern, what does it hurt to let her make some brood in a nuc to help out weaker colonies. There's a time to pinch one and a time to not throw away resources that can help. Obviously, I'm not referring to commercial beekeepers doing this on a regular basis. Everything doesn't have to come down to money does it?


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## Tycobb

Yeah, I think I would hold on to her, waste not want not. Extra brood is never a bad thing. Its not like I have an established apiary to fall back on, since I'm starting from scratch.


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## Michael Palmer

jmgi said:


> Yeah right. Unless she's laying a shotgun brood pattern, what does it hurt to let her make some brood in a nuc to help out weaker colonies. There's a time to pinch one and a time to not throw away resources that can help. Obviously, I'm not referring to commercial beekeepers doing this on a regular basis. Everything doesn't have to come down to money does it?


I understand what you're saying, and if I had to buy in every queen in my operation I might think differently. Since I raise all my own and have plenty to do what I want, I show no mercy. Why keep a duddard queen when I can replace her with a good one that will make way more healthy brood than the old one? It doesn't come down to money, but rather strong, healthy colonies and nucs.


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## philip.devos

As I read through the discussion, I am thinking about MY southern queens. I have only 3 colonies, 2 with queens from GA and one (a split) with a FLA queen. 

I believe they are still alive, but have a question: Would it be more advantageous when purchasing a box of bees with queen from the south to raise a queen during the first season, and replace the purchased queen with the raised queen? Would one expect to have a better performing queen in the season after the first winter?


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## Michael Palmer

I would want to evaluate the queen's performance before I did anything. You might have a good one. Plenty of beekeepers in the south like the stock they get with package bees. Nothing wrong with that.


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## philip.devos

Michael Palmer said:


> I would want to evaluate the queen's performance before I did anything. You might have a good one. Plenty of beekeepers in the south like the stock they get with package bees. Nothing wrong with that.


It DOES seem rather pointless to replace a queen that is performing well; these southern queens were from South Georgia (~50 miles from Florida line), so they have thin blood. inch: We'll see if they survive into spring, and see how they perform this season.


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## Maine_Beekeeper

Michael Palmer said:


> I understand what you're saying, and if I had to buy in every queen in my operation I might think differently. Since I raise all my own and have plenty to do what I want, I show no mercy. Why keep a duddard queen when I can replace her with a good one that will make way more healthy brood than the old one? It doesn't come down to money, but rather strong, healthy colonies and nucs.


Poor laying queens are no help to any colony. However, in our project packages we had newly raised spring queens from the south. We installed our packages in May, and then re-queened in mid June. (with queens from Michael Palmer and Bob Brachman). 

Our requeening steps for year 3 of our project were as follows: 
- install packages May 17, 2013 (our packages were two weeks late due to poor weather in the GA in spring)
- mark all queens on first inspection when we removed queen cages 3 days after installation
- feed all colonies as necessary
- 6/19/2013 select 1/2 of colonies randomly for re-queening using random number generator
- locate and remove all queens from colonies to be requeened on 6/20/2013
- 6/22/2013 install caged northern raised queen
- 6/25/2013 remove cages and mark northern queen if necessary (Mike's were marked, Bob's were not)
- proceed as before with all colonies, feeding and evaluating as normal

We caged all of the queens that we removed as part of this project, and shipped them overnight to Tammy Horn in Kentucky, where she used them in her apiaries (working with strip mine restoration and beekeeper education.) I don't believe in killing queens that are laying well, it hurts my feelings - and there are plenty of southern beekeepers who would be happy to receive a queen that has been laying for 5 weeks. 
If the practice of requeening southern packages that come north becomes widely adopted practice (which I believe it should) I hope our clubs and groups will help beekeepers coordinate new homes for the removed queens. But on a small scale if you post here on Beesource "free queen to southern state beekeeper" I'm sure you can find a home for the queen you remove, and hopefully the pay it forward will bode well for you and your bees. 

Best to you and your bees, 
-Erin


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## Tycobb

Thanks for the info Erin...I'll find a home if I cant use her...Im not the squish and tell type!


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## Lauri

Even though a Southern queen may not be good for Northern climates, there are tons of people who are desperate for Any queen because they have failed queens in their purchased nucs or packages. A southern queen is fine for holding those hives over until a Northern queen can be purchased. 

There are plenty of folks that *won't* pay more than $20, for a queen. They will buy anything with really no thought about the genetics or quality. A mated queen is a mated queen to them.. 

Sell your southern queen for $20.00 on Craigs list and go buy a premium Northern Queen for $40. No squishing, no mis representation for getting rid of a queen you don't believe in. Someone will want her, it just so happens, that is not you.

Or you could get a capped queen cell and install it in the hive and walk away. Let the bees take care of the issue. 
It would be an interesting study to see the comparison of Southern packages requeened with a mated Northern queen and those that had a capped queen cell inserted along _with_ the established Southern queen.(After packages had drawn out comb & built up somewhat of course. Not right away.) I'd like to know the percentage of hives that would treated the new virgin as a supercedure and keep the established queen in the hive until the virgin had a successful mated return and started laying. 

If that percentage was high, there would be no measurable difference between installing a mated Northern and a capped cell as far as continued growth of the colony. The lower cost and ease of the transition would be a big benefit, especially to the inexperienced. 

If the virgins were prone to immediatly killing the older established queen upon hatching , there would be a risky/disruptive slow down of growth. That would be fine in a nuc that may need a brood break for mite control, but not in recently inatalled colonies from a package. They don't need/can't afford the brood break before main nectar flow. After the flow, with a little supplimental feeding, options would be more likely to succeed without negative effects on the colony that could jeopardize overwintering strength and prep.

Timing for a capped cell requeening method is obviously an imporatint consideration. 

I'd do a study myself, but am not interested in spending $$ for bees I don't need. I've got bees coming out my ears already.

If anyone has results of a method like this, I'd be interested to hear about it.

Anyone local wants to try this, I always have plenty of capped cells.



















https://www.facebook.com/pages/Miller-Compound-HoneyBees-and-Agriculture/256954971040510


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## Maine_Beekeeper

Lauri -
Yes, capped QC are another way to go, though I don't know of any local source to buy them here in Maine, except one's own apiary. 
The Maine beekeeping educators are working on teaching our beekeepers to rear their own queens as fast as we can. Once that cat is out of the bag, we know that beekeepers quickly become sustainable in their own apiaries, and even abundant, as in your operation. 
Keep up the good work, 
-Erin


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## BernhardHeuvel

Instead of requeening, did someone tried to use bee boost (1/2 or 1/3 of the stick per package) when installing the package? Does it reduce drifting?


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## Michael Bush

>Instead of requeening, did someone tried to use bee boost (1/2 or 1/3 of the stick per package) when installing the package? Does it reduce drifting? 

My bet is it will reduce drifting. What I'm not sure of, is if fooling the bees into staying with an inferior queen is in their best interest...


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## bluegrass

Honey-4-All said:


> Question is : Do the bees do better cause its a Northern queen or do they do better because the hive is going into the winter with a younger queen?


We have a winner:thumbsup:

I always re-queen first year packages for this reason, I like to do this in mid-late July. There are a couple of reasons this is a good idea. #1 it gives you a chance to break the brood cycle which can help with mite levels. 2nd. Package bees are produced enmass... I an pick up 1000 packs from a single supplier in one day. If they are raising and mating that quantity of queens daily it is a pretty good bet that not all the queens are going to mate with an adequate amount of drones and some of those queens are going to fail late fall/early winter resulting in winter death of the colony. By July there are good numbers of ripe drones and they are mating far fewer queens then during the package season. So your hives go into winter with a young queen and a higher probability of surviving.

What is a northern queen anyway? At some point they all came from elsewhere, so what changes a "Southern Queen" into a "Northern" one? I can winter a southern package with a pretty high level of success, so the 2nd season are her daughters "Northern Queens"?


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## bluegrass

I would add that LL Langstroth imported the first Italian queens in the 1850s from temperate Italy into what can be a rather harsh climate of Philadelphia PA. They are an indisputable success story which speaks to their adaptability.


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## Michael Bush

>What is a northern queen anyway?

Offspring from a queen that has led a colony through one summer and winter in my climate and the colony survived. That's a minimum. The majority of southern queens in my climate don't make it through their first winter. Most of my breeder queens are three years old and have made it through at least two if not three of my winters. That's what I really want for a "northern queen".


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## ruthiesbees

Is there any data on a California queen, or is she the same as an inferior southern queen? I have a package and some queens coming from CA to increase my hives this spring. Wondering if they should be allowed to raise their own queen in the summer.


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## bluegrass

ruthiesbees said:


> Is there any data on a California queen, or is she the same as an inferior southern queen? I have a package and some queens coming from CA to increase my hives this spring. Wondering if they should be allowed to raise their own queen in the summer.


Keep in mind that CA extends over a geographic area that would take up most of the eastern seaboard. So a queen from Southern CA and one from Northern should be two different things in the eyes of somebody who subscribes to the North/South philosophy. 

I have mentioned before about Canadian packages coming all the way from New Zealand; that is the ultimate switch from south to north and many Canadian beekeepers report great success with them. Our honey bees are greatly adaptable. It is all too easy to blame non-local as the cause of failure when the reality is likely on a more personal level. Selling packages I hear all too often from people who want to try "Treatment free" and then they call me back the next season stating their bees died and asking if they can get an overwintered nuc from me because they want "northern bees". I also hear of people who bought "northern nucs" the year before and they all died, so they want packages this year because they are cheaper.


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## Tycobb

Michael Bush said:


> >What is a northern queen anyway?
> 
> Offspring from a queen that has led a colony through one summer and winter in my climate and the colony survived. That's a minimum. The majority of southern queens in my climate don't make it through their first winter. Most of my breeder queens are three years old and have made it through at least two if not three of my winters. That's what I really want for a "northern queen".


Maybe the issue is with the name "Northern Queen", perhaps Cold Climate Proven Lineage, or something less wordy would simplify the argument. Really, as I see it anyways, is as a (very) small level beekeeper, or perhaps for anyone who buys packages for that matter, the most important part of the package is the queen. If the failure rate of these queens is so close to 80%, the question I should of asked originally isn't how soon should/can requeen with one of Cold Climate Proven Lineage but rather how can southern package bee production companies legally push a product they know will more than likely fail to people in colder climates? At such a high percentage rate of 'lemons' aren't we talking about fraud on a massive level? Look at how much energy we have put into this one thread where we are not really discussing requeening but the best ways we know to fix a bad product (for our cold areas). If their websites had a disclaimer "Thanks for buying our package, which more likely than not die out if it gets cold. Remember us if you want to try again in the spring!" no one would ever take up this great hobby. Now if we could pair a warm clime apiary that would ship workers in concert with a proven Cold Climate Proven Lineage Apiary to ship queens to us for the same delivery date, it seems we could skip the whole new installation / reqeening debate. Perhaps that could some day be the new business model, melding the southern and northern apiaries into a collective...

Sorry for the caffiene induced rant. I just realized that I never have ordered a car from a dealer, then spent the two months before delivery trying to source a new engine. Self sustainability is definitely the way to go...just a more difficult proposition for a 1-3 hive apiary starting from scratch.


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## bluegrass

Tycobb:

You do not need to "source a new motor". I simply "rapid cycle" the queen. Once the package started colony reaches a population I am happy with I remove a couple of frames and the queen into a nuc and let the colony raise there own queen. Once I am happy with the replacement queen (ie. she is laying well and the week she was supposed to mate wasn't a complete washout.) I kill the old queen and put the extra frames back into the original hive or I offer them cheap to other beekeepers (think free). 

The 80% death rate is a slight exaggeration. (by slight I mean off by 60% or more) Packages I install usually see a survival rate of 80-90 % or better the first season and that is without treating for mites. In the second season some sort of mite management/treatment plan is a must.


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## Michael Bush

>Is there any data on a California queen, or is she the same as an inferior southern queen?

California queens have a high winter failure rate here in Nebraska.


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## Tycobb

My mistake with the 80%, I seriously misquoted a number for the SARE study...the number I should of used was 58% as weak or failed (In the report 42% of southern packages that were not altered showed average to strong overwintering where as 90% with cold climate proven queens showed avg. to strong overwintering) Even so, we are still talking a close to a 60% failure rate. 

As far as rapid cyclying, thats most likely the method I will use, but I ask everyone to consider this...If one can buy a cold climate proven queen for about $30, what are we getting for $100 or more we are spending on packages? (I've seen close to $300 for a package on ebay - where I would not get bees from) A queen to dispose of and a box of attendants. I'd rather just pay for the attendants at a better price and source a cold climate queen, which gets us closer to "a sure thing" to at least getting through the first winter. There in lies my frustration - it just seems the system is broken to me. Why don't these two groups work together to provide a superior product?




bluegrass said:


> Tycobb:
> 
> You do not need to "source a new motor". I simply "rapid cycle" the queen. Once the package started colony reaches a population I am happy with I remove a couple of frames and the queen into a nuc and let the colony raise there own queen. Once I am happy with the replacement queen (ie. she is laying well and the week she was supposed to mate wasn't a complete washout.) I kill the old queen and put the extra frames back into the original hive or I offer them cheap to other beekeepers (think free).
> 
> The 80% death rate is a slight exaggeration. (by slight I mean off by 60% or more) Packages I install usually see a survival rate of 80-90 % or better the first season and that is without treating for mites. In the second season some sort of mite management/treatment plan is a must.


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## bluegrass

I am of the opinion that there isn't any such thing as a cold climate proven queen. You can get a lousy mated queen in a local nuc or a package, it is just more likely to occur with a package due to shear numbers. Nearly a million packages come out of the South every year in the course of about 4 months. I don't know of any numbers for local nuc production, but I would be really surprised if it is even 50 K. As indicated with the "SARE" research the success rate without any intervention for a southern package was 42%, though they counted "weak" in those numbers which does not mean they did not survive... so IMO the fail rate was intentionally made to look worse then it actually is. I haven't read that report lately, but I believe that the packages used all came from the same supplier and that also puts the data in question. I can buy local nucs from certain individuals here in the Northeast and I guarantee 100% failure the first year. The producer makes a big difference. There are a few producers down south that put out exceptionally lousy packages... I just avoid those outfits... One producer sends a large number of Packs to the northeast every year and has one one of the largest distributors up here selling his packs. I wouldn't pay 10 bucks for one... I have bought them previously and they suck, but people still buy them year after year.... I have worked with several producers and I have standards when it comes to what I sell. If the producer starts missing the mark I start buying else where. I have one supplier who a really like the quality of his packs, but he can't put out the numbers I need, so I have to use somebody who puts out a decent pack consistently on time.


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## sterling

bluegrass said:


> Tycobb:
> 
> You do not need to "source a new motor". I simply "rapid cycle" the queen. Once the package started colony reaches a population I am happy with I remove a couple of frames and the queen into a nuc and let the colony raise there own queen. Once I am happy with the replacement queen (ie. she is laying well and the week she was supposed to mate wasn't a complete washout.) I kill the old queen and put the extra frames back into the original hive or I offer them cheap to other beekeepers (think free).
> 
> The 80% death rate is a slight exaggeration. (by slight I mean off by 60% or more) Packages I install usually see a survival rate of 80-90 % or better the first season and that is without treating for mites. In the second season some sort of mite management/treatment plan is a must.


If you are letting this hive raise it's own queen from an egg laid by a southern queen why do people complain about a package superseding their queen? Most queen breeders say a supercedure cell is better than an emergence cell but most seem to complain about supercedure. A package may be reacting as a swarm does in superseding their queen because they have been put in a similar situation as a swarm.


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## winevines

bluegrass said:


> ... so IMO the fail rate was intentionally made to look worse then it actually is. I haven't read that report lately, but


This is part of the big problem. READ the report and digest it. The weak, strong, average were applied to all three sets of colonies compared equally.


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## Tycobb

Fair enough. Is there a place for people that can't buy in such large quantities (and learn the lessons you have) to read reviews or recommendations about the southern mega suppliers so they can make informed decisions? Whether its a queen that can't handle the cold or an unscrupolus wholesaler the results are the same...a need to requeen. Most seem reluctant to name their suppliers, as if they had connections to Tony Soprano.


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## bluegrass

Tycobb said:


> Fair enough. Is there a place for people that can't buy in such large quantities (and learn the lessons you have) to read reviews or recommendations about the southern mega suppliers so they can make informed decisions? Whether its a queen that can't handle the cold or an unscrupolus wholesaler the results are the same...a need to requeen. Most seem reluctant to name their suppliers, as if they had connections to Tony Soprano.


I am not reluctant to name my supplier. I am reluctant to publicly call out the ones that should be avoided . The bees I sell come from Mike Gardner in Baxley GA. I would also recommend Fred Rossman. I have some others I avoid because they can't put out the quantity I need, some I avoid out of respect for the supplier(s) I do use, and some that I avoid because they can't put out a good package on time to save their lives and in the past have completely canceled my order which puts me in an awkward place with my own customers. 

As far as nucs go there are quite a few southern nucs sold in the northeast. Usually the price is okay, but it isn't always clear that they are southern nucs. I have inspected some "Northern nucs" for customers and in general I haven't been impressed. I am sure there are good producers out there, but I haven't seen their product yet. I have inspected W Fisher bee farms nucs and I think they are a good value, though I think they sell them as 5 fram and the ones I looked at were 4 with one foundation. I have also seen Harvey's Honey's Nucs and they are decent, but they are both southern produced and trucked north.


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## franktrujillo

if your going to requeen why dont you order packages with no queen


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## bluegrass

franktrujillo said:


> if your going to requeen why dont you order packages with no queen


Because it really doesn't save you much, a queenless pack is only 10 bucks less then one with a queen. And what are you going to do for a queen? 

By rapid cycling my queens I am not spending any more then the cost of the package, I am not changing the genetics. I am just assuring that the queen I have is properly mated and prepared to take the colony through the winter. There is a chance that the queen in the pack is fine, but in order for me to be sure I want to know when she hatched and what the weather was like when she mated.


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## Lauri

Story has been removed. Thanks everyone for your support


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## Haraga

What is the queen producers name?


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## Lauri

****


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## Honey-4-All

franktrujillo said:


> if your going to requeen why dont you order packages with no queen


Seriously? I could name a hundred reason why. Starting with replacement Queen 1 and ending with #100. Unless they ship with some form of QMP this is a no brainer....


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## winevines

Lauri said:


> Lauri said:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.honeybeesuite.com/queen-buyers-beware/
> OK Beesource folks, what do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is easy to misinterpret email, blogs, forums, and the like. I believe the intentions in your post were telling folks not to kill and waste a queen as there are always folks who need one. I have pulled queens I did not want from my own yard- some crappy.
> But would I sell them? No. Never.
> And IMHO it is that part of your suggestion that seems to be where the poster took offense. I guess to you $20 is cheap. To me, it is about what a GA bred packaged queen costs new here. My guess is MB is talking like $5- cheap. A symbolic amount.
> 
> But the amount charged is not really the point. Or at least not my point.
> It is impossible for me to imagine my bee world in such a vacuum that I had no beekeeping association or many beekeeping friends who I would know were desperate for a queen in a pinch or with one email I would know so that I would resort to posting an ad on Craigs list for a queen I did not like and sell her.
> 
> I gave someone a "crappy" queen I pulled last summer to fix a queen less situation they had. Dang thing turned around and did great and made it through winter. Now that is karma. Far more valuable than $20.
Click to expand...


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## Colleen O.

Lauri,

Last year I had some Buckfast queens on order when I read a post by a beekeeper not too far from me that had some mean bees he desperately needed to requeen. Since I would have had to pinch the queens and he could use them I met him halfway and gave him the queens for a jar of honey (ended up with lunch out of it too but that wasn't part of the original deal). One queen was small but laid a good pattern, the other large and gentle. (I kept their sister who heads my best colony with a low mite count.) The colonies were gentle which was what he needed and it was mid-season when queens are sometimes hard to come by. They weren't proven and I am no breeder but he knew that. The queens were accepted but I haven't caught up with him to find out how they did.

I didn't sell them, they weren't the package queen but daughters, and it wasn't Craigslist but sure seems similar to the scenario you laid out. I did think $20 was steep but as long as the situation is communicated the buyer decides if it is worth the price. I have a suspicion from your posts and pictures that you have high standards so what you would pinch might be the best queen in another apiary. Everyone has different needs. I thought that buyer beware post was harsh.


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## Lauri

Beekeepers in the Northern states that buy the packages and nucs from Calif and want to requeen, but have a hard time just killing the southern queen for no reason. My posting were not as clear as I would like, but obviously you would not sell a drone layer or bad queen, just the Southern queens you got with the packages. If it was OK for them to be sold to consumers, why would it not be ok to pass her on? I have people that want to buy a Northern queen, especially after this SARE study came out, but are reluctant to kill the recently purchased one, simply because it is from Ca. I say sell it to someone who needs it. There is an EXTREME need for replacement queens for those packages that failed. 

I never said get rid of your junk to some unsuspecting person as the poster implies. And certainly don't buy and resell queens from nucs and packages.

Thanks everyone. Appreciate your help resolving this issue.I evidently need to be more clear in my posts. Makes me hesitate to write anything unless I have time to scrutinize my words so no one can turn them around.


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## marshmasterpat

A $20 queen within driving distance, hmmm. Take one frame of honey, one of brood, a few of comb or more brood if your hive can afford it, and dump in queen. That is one heck of a cheap nuc IMO. Now say the queen is not laying well. The thread talks about summer so drones should be present. Now give the queen a chance and if she is not laying well, pull her, and let them raise their own queen with a local produced drone population to mate with. 

If she is a poor layer, is that really genetics. I know next to nothing about bees, but would bet it was just she didn't mate well or didn't have enough royal jelly. 

And everyone knows that craigslist and such always are buyer beware. So offer the queen for $10 instead. The minimum most cost for a queen with shipping is $35 or much greater. So it is like buying a used car. Look her over and if you don't like, don't buy. Ask what the problem was. If she is from a breeder with a great reputation, heck it is worth it for the genetics. Her babies would be 1/2 that breeder's genes and 1/2 local drone stock. Win-win IMO. And then revisit my first paragraph. Let someone offer one of the small cell hygienic queens from a certain breeder in the Midwest for sell locally on craigslist around here. If she is laying 20 eggs a day, I would still jump at it. LOL cause I don't need many to make a new queen with her blood lines. 

Laurie - Your page is not as fancy as some, but I have read over it and a few other posters here on beesource. I have not seen anything on yours that was misleading, so I wouldn't worry about it. 

Anything can be twisted to fit the reader's mindset - Look at the 2nd Amendment. If our great fore-fathers of this country would have worried about that, they would have been about as effective as our great congress is today. And we would likely still have coins in our pockets with the queen of England on the front.


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## Michael Bush

>“No need to pinch the purchased queens, just put her on Craig’s list for $20 and she’ll be gone the first day.”
Really? How low can you go?

I have done the same when I have gotten packages. I sell off all the queens at $10 each to get rid of them to friends who are going to spend $30 each to buy the same kind of queens otherwise. Seems to me I'm doing them a favor... and they know what I think of those queens, and they know what they are getting, so I don't think I'm defrauding them...


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## Michael Bush

>Makes me hesitate to write anything unless I have time to scrutinize my words so no one can turn them around. 

They can ALWAYS turn them around. They just have to take them out of context. Just look at the news everyday... but of course you should do your best to not be misunderstood... but in this case I don't see it that way.

While on the topic of selling things that may not be the absolute best, when you are a breeder there is always the issue that if you produce any kind of livestock you NEED to keep the best ones and not sell them. Otherwise you don't have the stock to raise more good ones. So, of course you cull the bad ones, sell the good ones and keep the excellent ones. Sometimes it's tempting to sell the excellent ones because you are wanting to give your customers the best possible stock, I often find myself tempted in that way because I always want to please my customers. But if you do you're short changing your future customers, not to mention yourself. Once I started looking at selling the best ones as short changing my future customers it was much easier for me to conscientiously keep the really excellent ones. I don't sell my best queens, I breed from them. I don't sell my best horses, I breed from them...

Now someone will take this out of context and say I'm selling poor queens...


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## Barry

Lauri said:


> I just wonder why this person didn't talk to me if she had such a problem with my posts. A short conversation would have been all that was necessary to show her she was incorrect in my meaning. Instead she had to publicly post this warning?


Lauri, you still need to grow thicker skin. The beauty of these forums is that no one can get away with misrepresenting someone. Thanks for taking the time to lay it all out there so the whole issue is clear. Rusty Burlew, from HoneyBeeSuite should have included a link to your site so everyone could see the 'facts' for themselves.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

Barry said:


> Lauri, you still need to grow thicker skin. The beauty of these forums is that no one can get away with misrepresenting someone. Thanks for taking the time to lay it all out there so the whole issue is clear. *Rusty *should have included a link to your site so everyone could see the 'facts' for themselves.


Please note that the aforementioned "Rusty" is not ME. :no:


Rusty

edited to add: Thanks for the update, Barry! :thumbsup:


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## WBVC

When someone becomes "known" there is always someone else who takes offence and spreads about trash remarks.
Take it as the compliment it is....you have become "known"



Lauri said:


> She is talking about me. The web site post is her interpretation of my postings here on Beesource


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## Rusty Hills Farm

I left a comment about this on the honeybeesuite site. It's awaiting moderation, however, so I thought I'd post it here as well--just for the record. 

My comment:


> I have to say I deeply disagree with your post on queens. When you need a queen you need a queen! Sometimes there isn’t much time to find one and the one on Craigslist actually buys you time–time to shop for the queen you really want. To suggest that someone is fobbing off a lousy queen just because it’s from a package is just not true. She’s just an extra queen. Period. Personally when I buy packages, I replace those queens with homegrown VSH Cordovan queens. Those package queens are perfectly good queens, just not what I want. So why squish a nice Italian queen when she might be exactly what someone else needs?!?
> 
> Personally I think you owe a certain local queen producer an apology because she is only being sensible and offering a queen she doesn’t need to someone who may actually need her right that minute. In my book, that’s a good deed, not a bad one!
> 
> JMO
> 
> Rusty from Alabama


I really hate waste. I hate killing stuff--even bugs--if I don't have to. I'd much rather see a queen get used than squished any day!

JMO

Rusty


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## Barry Digman

Hmmm. The "Rusty" at Honey Bee Suite needs to get her facts straight. Lauri is not a mod here.



> This advice seems especially out of place coming from a moderator on Beesource. Like many other beekeepers, I expect advice coming from such a public, honored, and trusted position to be exemplary.
> Rusty
> HoneyBeeSuite


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## Michael Bush

> It's awaiting moderation

It's on the honeybeesuite site now.


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## Lauri

****


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## WLC

I'm not sure why the topic of re-queening package bees is such a big deal. You can order them without a queen and use a different queen source. If there is a problem with the queen, a replacement isn't difficult to get from the package producer within reason, and you could always replace that later in the season if that's your preference.

If I were Lauri, I wouldn't worry too much about cross posting from other forums.

Who cares?


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## Brandy

Getting a little defensive here.. She posted her thoughts on her site without naming names. Sorry, I think she had some offense to the idea "if it wasn't good enough for the seller, it might not be good enough for the buyer". A heads up for others. 

Everyone here is talking about poor quality packages and queens, your own thoughts... The package producers might have a few comments. They put there all into trying to produce a product but fail and succeed just like the rest of us.. A heads up also... Without them, where do you suppose new beekeeps get their bees? 

Just seems ironic that it's OK to voice displeasure on some topics but it's not OK for others to do the same...


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## Lauri

It's true our threads focus on potential Southern queen failures when brought up North. The same_ could_ be held true for Northern queens taken down south. 
I've heard comments that Northern bred queens, unaccustomed to the Continual warm climate brood rearing and pressure from mites resulting from that would likely produce a similar result with a study, possibly showing Northern queens to be inferior over southern's. Due to weather conditions, Northern queens are not reared early and have the luxury of premium mating exposure and conditions. As I said in my OP, I don't believe this study was a fair -all things equal-assessment of queen quality simply due to geographical differences. Although I am in a Northern State, less than three hours from the Canadian border, My climate is quite mild near the coast. My Carnie hybrids do well here with several months of broodless winter period. Temps below 0 here with wind chill, but nothing like the temps and extended freezing/snow they have suffered in the central Northern states and Canada.

The conclusion being, Local is usually best. Which many have said here a time or two. What to do with the queens that come out of packages bred out of state, is up to the buyer. 

Like Rusty Hills Farm said, Those package queens are perfectly good queens, just not what I want. So why squish a nice Italian queen when she might be exactly what someone else needs?

So kill them, keep them, sell them or give them away. All we are doing here is trying to help folks overwinter more successfully. No harsh opinions, no agenda. Just our experiences and thoughts towards building and maintaining better, more sustainable colonies. Keeping folks from quitting after they have suffered losses too many years in a row.


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## WLC

'Local is best' is O.K. as a generalization. However, if you look at hardiness zone maps, they show that large swaths of the Eastern U.S., all the way into Texas, probably have bees that can do well where I am locally.

There's something else that I think that's missing in that kind of a generalization: genetics.

Open mating in some areas of the South can introduce some desirable 'unmanaged' genetics into the resulting colony.

I can't get that here locally.

There is also evidence that those 'unmanaged' genetics tend to be introduced earlier since drones from those colonies fly earlier than domestic drones do.

So, don't assume that there isn't an advantage in obtaining early queens from some areas.


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## bluegrass

There is absolutely no legitimate scientific research that "southern bees" are inferior. 100% of my stocks are derived from southern bees currently, they produce well and have no problems wintering here in New England. Failures of "southern bees" is with rare exception a failure on the part of the beekeeper, not the bees.


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## Fusion_power

> Northern bred queens, unaccustomed to the Continual warm climate brood rearing and pressure from mites resulting from that would likely produce a similar result with a study, showing Northern queens to be inferior over southern's. Due to weather conditions, Northern queens are not reared early and have the luxury of premium mating exposure and conditions. As I said in my OP, this study is not a fair -all things equal-assessment of queen quality simply due to geographical differences.
> 
> The conclusion being, Local is usually best. Which many have said here a time or two. What to do with the queens that come out of packages bred out of state, is up to the buyer.


Lauri, in this case, I have to take exception to the above statements. These are opinions, not facts.

1. Northern bred queens are not necessarily inferior in a southern climate. I've had excellent success using Northern bred Buckfast queens from Canada to produce honey in Alabama. This was over a period of years, not just once or twice. The genetics are more important than the locale they are raised in.

2. Southern bred queens are not necessarily inferior in a northern climate. I've seen southern bred queens produce better crops and overwinter better in northern climates. That they are from the south is not important, what matters is whether they have the genetics to winter successfully.

3. Local is not necessarily best, in fact, modern beekeeping is based on using non-local bees for the very good reason that they are often more productive and better adapted than local strains. This is why local honeybees throughout most of the world have been displaced by more productive strains from elsewhere.

As a broad generalization, bees adapt to an area based on season cycle, season length, and type food sources available. This occurs over a period of many years. This is why we have Italians that produce huge colonies at all seasons of the year, Carniolans that thrive in areas with a large spring flow, and Caucasians that thrive in areas with a large fall flow. Here in my climate, we have a strong spring flow followed by a mid-summer dearth and then a strong fall flow from goldenrod and aster. The best bees for my climate are Apis Mellifera Mellifera because they fit the pattern of spring and fall flows, cut back brood rearing in the mid-summer dearth, and winter more thriftily than any other bee. Unfortunately, AMM have several overwhelming problems such as excessive swarming, make very dark honey, sting excessively, are generally susceptible to brood disease, etc.

There are some legitimate issues that support your statement that requeening southern packages makes sense. In particular, if you want to change from Italian to Carniolan genetics or something similar, it makes sense to get a new queen. But if you are doing this, then you probably ordered the wrong queen to start with! There is a good case to be made that requeening in late summer or early fall is good bee business. The colony goes into winter with a young queen that is in the best possible condition for spring brood rearing.

I would not hesitate to offer a queen for sale that has been removed from a package, but I would be very clear to the buyer the reason you replaced it in your colony. I would not under any conditions offer a queen for sale that has given sub par performance in one of my colonies. Poor queens don't generally improve with time. Why would I want to foist off a poor queen to someone else? Note that this is not pointed at you, this is just me expressing what I think about selling package queens.

Using your example, why on earth would anyone pay $40 for a queen when you can buy all the queens you want for $20? Why would anyone buy a package queen for $20 when you can order fresh queens for $20?

I know that you are trying hard to establish a business producing and selling bees and queens. I would not buy bees from you, even if I lived next door to you because your bees have no major differentiator to make them more valuable than bees I can raise myself. Your claim to have local adapted genetics is valid but not enough to justify the price differential you are trying to charge. You have not put in the years of work required to select and improve your bees to the point that they outperform all others in your climate. What I would really enjoy would be to see you go on a serious binge of improving your bees. Then you would have something to justify the higher prices.


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## Lauri

Points taken Fusion. As always, beesource posters give you something to think about.

Ya, In my area near Seattle, Wa, they recently approved $15.00 minimum wage for some. Prices here are different than your area I assume. 
My prices are in line with the area and include more personal customer service than queens that are shipped through the mail. And my genetics? I am tickled with my Glenn II stock and collected genetics. Improvement is always formost. That's why I am here. Reading, learning. Gets better every year. My comments are directed towards the discussion of the SARE study, which I found accurate considering my experiences. Others may have a differrent opinion.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

WLC said:


> You can order them without a queen and use a different queen source.


Not always. Last season when I ordered packages from Kelley's I had a choice of queens but they did not offer the option of no queen. This is why I had a couple of queens available. I offered them locally and someone wanted them. To me that was win-win and _not_ the handing off some inferior queen! 

Nice to see my post survived moderation and even rated a comment!



Rusty


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## Broke-T

A cpl of comments from a small southern queen producer.

I sell a lot of queens to northern beeks. They are mostly from breeders I buy each year from Adam Fienklestein of VP Queens in Maryland. They are bred in the north for the northern environment. The queens I sell are raised in MS but I don't see where they would be any better if they were raised in the North.

It has been a cold winter here for us as well. I was scheduled to start grafting last Friday but didn't because I didn't have drones ready. After checking my drone colonies this weekend I should be in good shape to graft this comming Friday. I could have grafted last week and took a chance but I try to produce a queen I would like to buy.

The reason so many packages have queens that are possibly substandard is because so many people want these early packages, even in the north. I have seen numerous post on beesource about shaking packages in snow and freezing temps. If northern beeks demand these early packages don't complain about what you get.

I will get off my soapbox now, Johnny


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## Honey-4-All

Broke-T said:


> If northern beeks demand these early packages don't complain about what you get.


:bus

package producer..

Just where they belong!!!!


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## bluegrass

Broke-T said:


> The reason so many packages have queens that are possibly substandard is because so many people want these early packages, even in the north. I have seen numerous post on beesource about shaking packages in snow and freezing temps. If northern beeks demand these early packages don't complain about what you get.
> 
> I will get off my soapbox now, Johnny


I pickup and deliver packages in May every year, and every year I get countless calls about people asking if I can get any in March or April. The answer is yes, but I am not going to. I also have a late run on packages where I am selling to people who bought early packages and need to replace them. 

That being said I think that some of the early package demand is from commercial operations trying to fill hives for pollination contracts.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

Fusion_power said:


> ...I would not buy bees from you, even if I lived next door to you because your bees have no major differentiator to make them more valuable than bees I can raise myself. Your claim to have local adapted genetics is valid but not enough to justify the price differential you are trying to charge. You have not put in the years of work required to select and improve your bees to the point that they outperform all others in your climate. What I would really enjoy would be to see you go on a serious binge of improving your bees. Then you would have something to justify the higher prices....


Wow!

Just wondering how you can tell from Alabama about Lauri's conditions in Washington? How do you know WHAT her bees are or are not worth--do you have some? Now if you were busting my chops about my bees, I could understand that since we only live a few miles apart. But Lauri's at the other end of the country! 

Since you obviously think her prices are too high, then don't buy her queens. However, I also think that the rest of the readers on here are just as entitled to make up their own minds about her prices and the quality of her stock. And by the way, she gets to charge whatever she wants just like her buyers get to decide if they want to pay it. That's how a free market economy works, isn't it?

What is this--free potshot at Lauri day?

Yeash.




Rusty


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## Michael Bush

>I sell a lot of queens to northern beeks. They are mostly from breeders I buy each year from Adam Fienklestein of VP Queens in Maryland. They are bred in the north for the northern environment. 

Well, I would consider Maryland to be in the South... but still those are bred as more norhtern than most and I imagine they might be almost as aclimatized as one bred in Maryland. I say almost because no one controls their drone source, even if they think they do... I'm sure they would do better in the North than the typical Southern queen.

>The reason so many packages have queens that are possibly substandard is because so many people want these early packages, even in the north.

I agree. Most of the reason for poorly mated queens in packages is beause of the demand of the consumers for earlier and earlier packages. If the typical package was made up in May with queens mated in late April or early May, they would be much better quality.

> I have seen numerous post on beesource about shaking packages in snow and freezing temps. If northern beeks demand these early packages don't complain about what you get.

Agreed.


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## Broke-T

Michael, If your from the South, Maryland is most definately in the North. 

Johnny


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## Brandy

Just for the heck of it, instead of this North/South discussion, I plugged into some hardiness zones to just see what kind of environment differences we're talking about. 

Thought I would start with: 
Chico, CA as a supplier: zone 9a
Baton Rouge Research rated 8b
Roy, WA with LM rated zone 8a
Broke T, MS rated 7b
VP Queens, Maryland rated 7a
Latshaw in OH rated 5b
MB in NE rated at 5a
St. Albens, VT rated 3b

Interesting to me, was MS, MD etc. is harsher than Roy, WA in the north. So much for the North/South discussion. Also it's from zones 5-7 that breeder queens are going to CA and GA etc.. Again, the north/south kind of misleading.


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## sterling

Right those hardiness zone lines don't run straight. To me anywhere above the Mason Dixon line is North. I live in zone 7 here in Nashville Tn. area but go 60 miles east and your in zone 6.


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## cryptobrian

Brandy said:


> Again, the north/south kind of misleading.


I'm from Maryland ... Western MD. And recently moved to the Seattle area of WA. Huge difference. There are parts of Maryland that will dip into the 5a/b zone. While Seattle is a much more temperate 8a. A north/south distinction doesn't really mean much for wintering, does it?

Brian


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## bluegrass

That would put most of the Country in the South... Mason/Dixon ends just east of the Ohio line, so nothing Ohio and west is above it.


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## Fusion_power

> Since you obviously think her prices are too high, then don't buy her queens. However, I also think that the rest of the readers on here are just as entitled to make up their own minds about her prices and the quality of her stock. And by the way, she gets to charge whatever she wants just like her buyers get to decide if they want to pay it. That's how a free market economy works, isn't it?


I said it exactly the way I meant it. Please read it again if you don't get the point. I clearly stated the two reasons why.

There is a huge bias here on beesource toward "local" bees. Local bees do not have any significant advantage and may have major disadvantages compared to bees that have had reasonable levels of selection applied. This is why Buckfast bees were so phenomenal 25 years ago. They had 70 years of selection and breed improvement behind them.

Which begs the question, would my bees have any significant advantage over your bees given that I have been treatment free since 2005. No, they would not and might even have some disadvantages because my bees overwinter with relatively small clusters and swarm more than I care for. On the other hand, I don't have to treat my bees for mites which means I can do some things with my bees that you can't do.......... unless you are also treatment free.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

No, I'm not treatment free. I just haven't needed to treat since I started incorporating VSH. I would treat if I needed to. That's the difference: a philosophical one. Nor are my bees "local". In fact I don't even see any feral bees here, altho I suppose there could be some. I do, however, think that market pressures will determine prices if we give them enough time, so it's not necessary to lecture folks about how high or low their prices are. 

As always, JMO

Rusty


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## sterling

http://www.city-data.com/forum/atta...-mason-dixon-line-blank-map-united-states.jpg

I guess I miss spoke this here is the line I was calling the mason Dixon line. And any thing that is above it is North to me.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

Local bees are better. Than the average queen in my experiance. But if someone up in Vermont is doing some killer breeding than his stock could be better. But if all things were done exactly the same but in two very different zones local I bet would kick butt over the bee that has to adjust. The best bees I have honey production wise and survival wise have always been raised by me.... I know what I want. It is not easy and there is no free lunch but my best queens I would hold up to any packaged queen in the industry and then some.


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## oldiron56

ever hear of Mason Dixon Line ? Delaware north / Maryland south, we get 4 seasons, easy on the bees, 


Broke-T said:


> Michael, If your from the South, Maryland is most definately in the North.
> 
> Johnny


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## Michael Palmer

Just because your queens were raised in the north doesn't guarantee that they will perform well in the north. Just because your queens were raised locally doesn't mean they will perform well locally. 

Farrar once said that queens raised from less than the best stock under ideal conditions will perform better than queens raised from the best stock under less than ideal conditions.

Tarpy once said that man breeds by selecting from the best. Nature breeds by getting rid of the dogs. 

So, to me it's not just about north or south. It's not just about local either. It's about selecting from from stocks that perform well locally, and then raising daughters under ideal conditions.


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## Daniel Y

Fusion_power said:


> 1. This is why Buckfast bees were so phenomenal 25 years ago. They had 70 years of selection and breed improvement behind them.
> 
> 2. Which begs the question, would my bees have any significant advantage over your bees given that I have been treatment free since 2005.


1. This would be lovely if I where keeping bees 20 years ago. Not sure what it has to do with queens and quality of them today.

2. No, I do not consider treatment free an advantage. Treatment or non treatment is not even on the list of things I look for in a quality queen.

I woud like to see the list of criteria you posted previous to that applied to all queen producers. I wonder how well they would measure up. I am not sure much of what is on your list is any more actually current fact than the idea that queens produced 20 years ago are relevant. You may not be aware of this. but the nature of beekeeping has changed just a bit in the last 20 years. I do wonder how those outstanding buckfast queens would measure up today? Oh yeah they didn't make it this far. maybe they did not have what it takes to live in the world the queens of today live in. So much for 70 years of breeding. tell me again why that is such an important requirement for selling queens.


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## bluegrass

sterling said:


> http://www.city-data.com/forum/atta...-mason-dixon-line-blank-map-united-states.jpg
> 
> I guess I miss spoke this here is the line I was calling the mason Dixon line. And any thing that is above it is North to me.


That is the Official Congressional North/South Divide which is what I assumed you were trying to refer to. My ancestors wrote the check that paid for the Mason/Dixon survey back in the 1700s... I have never understood why the "South" uses the MD line as a divide, when it was surveyed to resolve a dispute between the Quakers of PA and the Colony of VA?


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## Michael Palmer

Well BG, where you're from is south to me. South of rte 4 is south and north of rte 2 is north. South of the Vermont border doesn't count.
They're all Flat-Landers. 

Zone 3b and -12 last night.


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## oldiron56

.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mason_dixon_line


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## bluegrass

Michael Palmer said:


> Well BG, where you're from is south to me. South of rte 4 is south and north of rte 2 is north. South of the Vermont border doesn't count.
> They're all Flat-Landers.
> 
> Zone 3b and -12 last night.


I am originally from Wheelock which is North of rt 2 . Where I am from we consider everybody in the Champlain Valley Flatlanders 

I assume you are as no self respecting VT farmer would farm anything but cows  I was technically not born in VT so.....


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## Michael Palmer

Real Vermonters don't milk goats.


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## bluegrass

Michael Palmer said:


> Real Vermonters don't milk goats.


Or sheep, that seems to be getting pretty popular now days too. Come to think of it real Vermonters are not milking cows now days either... They grow up, get an education and move away, then come back when they retire and bring all the money they made out of state with them.


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## Fusion_power

> What is this--free potshot at Lauri day?


I decided to go back to this comment because it deserves a counter. If someone said to go east from Jasper on hwy 78 about 40 miles and you would be in Mississippi, would you look at them funny? Would you ask them if they know what they are talking about? East on hwy 78 puts you in Birmingham which is the opposite direction of Mississippi. So I am not taking potshots at Laurie. I'm stating that something has been posted that is wrong. The reason I posted is because way too many beginning beekeepers will read what is posted here and will think what they read is correct. You CAN go east from Jasper and get to Mississippi... in about 24,000 miles when you finally get all the way around the world. Wouldn't it be simpler if someone just said "go West".




> I woud like to see the list of criteria you posted previous to that applied to all queen producers. I wonder how well they would measure up. I am not sure much of what is on your list is any more actually current fact than the idea that queens produced 20 years ago are relevant. You may not be aware of this. but the nature of beekeeping has changed just a bit in the last 20 years. I do wonder how those outstanding buckfast queens would measure up today? Oh yeah they didn't make it this far. maybe they did not have what it takes to live in the world the queens of today live in. So much for 70 years of breeding. tell me again why that is such an important requirement for selling queens.


Most queens produced in the U.S. today are modestly improved, and I am being very kind with that statement. They are nowhere near what they could be if we had a consistent approach to bee breeding. Re Buckfast bees, they were highly tolerant to tracheal mites but totally susceptible to varroa. They are not a significant force in the world of beekeeping here in the U.S. except that some remnant populations are still around. 

Now I get to whack your caustic comment. "tell me again why that is such an important requirement for selling queens." It is important because even moderate amounts of selection applied over a period of years will significantly improve performance of a given strain of bees. Killion proved this by selecting a superb comb honey producing bee. Hastings proved this by selecting a superb strain of Carniolan for Canadian conditions. Brother Adam proved this in spades with Buckfast bees. What about Minnesota hygienics? or New World Carniolans? or the VSH lines that Harbo has been working on so many years? It is important because beekeeping can be significantly easier and more productive just because someone took time to choose the genetics they are breeding from. You are welcome to buy all the "local" queens you like for any price you choose to pay. I choose to put my time, money, and energy into bees that make honey for less of my time and money.

Figure this one out: Cheap queens can be expensive, expensive queens can be cheap, and queens that produce the most honey are cheap for the price.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

Fusion_power said:


> I decided to go back to this comment because it deserves a counter. If someone said to go east from Jasper on hwy 78 about 40 miles and you would be in Mississippi, would you look at them funny? Would you ask them if they know what they are talking about? East on hwy 78 puts you in Birmingham which is the opposite direction of Mississippi. So I am not taking potshots at Laurie. I'm stating that something has been posted that is wrong. The reason I posted is because way too many beginning beekeepers will read what is posted here and will think what they read is correct. You CAN go east from Jasper and get to Mississippi... in about 24,000 miles when you finally get all the way around the world. Wouldn't it be simpler if someone just said "go West".


Lauri posted her opinion based on her experience. You posted your opinion based on your experience. What makes your opinion anything more than just another opinion? The fact that it's yours? 

I am sorry to break it to you but Alabama is not Washington. Your opinion of what works in Washington is no more valid than someone from Washington having an opinion of what works in Alabama. Different conditions apply. Heck, I moved up from Florida and I am having to unlearn much of what I once considered to be normal good beekeeping practice because it just doesn't work up here. (And I killed a perfectly good Pol-Line queen in the process!)

You are certainly entitled to your opinions. But they are STILL just OPINIONS. Just like Lauri's. Or mine. Or anybody else who posts here. ALL beekeeping is still regional. 

(And I also think all bees enjoy making liars and fools out of us--but that's another post entirely!)

Rusty


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## bluegrass

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> You are certainly entitled to your opinions. But they are STILL just OPINIONS. Just like Lauri's. Or mine. *Or anybody else who posts here*. ALL beekeeping is still regional.
> 
> 
> Rusty


ehem.... My opinions are *fact*. 

I reject your reality and substitute my own.


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## Fusion_power

> Lauri posted her opinion based on her experience. You posted your opinion based on your experience. What makes your opinion anything more than just another opinion? The fact that it's yours?
> 
> I am sorry to break it to you but Alabama is not Washington. Your opinion of what works in Washington is no more valid than someone from Washington having an opinion of what works in Alabama.


Except... that I have lived in Washington, Kent area to be exact.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

And I have lived and kept bees in Colorado--20 years ago. So my opinions about high country beekeeping are hardly valid today, which is why I don't offer them. 


Rusty


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## Fusion_power

Please give me a lesson in quarter horse genetics. How do you improve your quarter horses? What makes your stud better than most? Maybe some local horses should breed with your quarter horses. It would produce the local horse equivalent of local bees. You would be improving the local horse genetics. Shetland ponies would get bigger and faster. A couple of race horse owners might not be too happy with the infusion of quarter horse genetics in their thoroughbred mares.

Just laugh and go on. It is a disagreement that has no end and no winner.


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## rhaldridge

This isn't a very good analogy. Horses in that context are not wild animals over which the owner has minimal control, as bees are. A better analogy would be if he were breeding horses to survive on their own. Then crossbreeding with wild horses might be very useful.


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## bluegrass

Not to start another old horse over, but Honey Bees are not wild animals either, they are domestic livestock which, like horses, are able to go feral. 

Bee genetics are far more complicated then breeding better horses... A horse breeder can select a great mare, cross breed it with a great stud and get great offspring.. Bee breeders often select from a certain queen, graft daughters who may only be half sisters to each other with unknown fathers, then open mate with unknown bee husbands. Bee breeding is more like throwing the dice at a crap table then it is like horse breeding.


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