# Something seems terribly wrong with this hive...



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

1. Some bees stop brooding by this time of year, but I see you have no pollen stored. Give some pollen patty she'll start laying, we are having good enough weather.

2. The black comb is old brood comb. What you see is layers of old pupa casings, turns it all dark. Each round of brood, the comb gets darker.

3. I didn't see your queen, but you did, so the hive is still viable. I say give her a couple pollen patties between the two boxes.

4. I would just chalk that up to hive trash. Bees throw the trash to the bottom board.

5. They are low on numbers, normal to see them cluster in the top. Some bees do it more than others.

6. Good, they have carbohydrates but they need some pollen, queen won't lay without some.

7. I think they were shy on pollen going into late fall and now winter.

How many frames of bees do you have? The only things I see is low population and no pollen. Give some pollen patty, and see if they pick up. If the population is too small, they will have a hard time building up.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I will take #7.
7. Much smaller bee population.

Looks like the queen and her workers did not
keep up with the big fat winter bees to replace
the dead summer bees. So the hive is dwindling away
when they should be brooding up somewhat by now.
All of my hives are still brooding up facing the
coming of another Spring. They are not stopping now.
How long ago did you check on this hive? 
If you don't have at least 4 frame of bees back to
back then they will not make it. If they are brooding
up now then they still have a chance to survive. At any rate
you need to keep the frames away from the wax moth. The
white cotton like web are the wax moth cocoons that you see
mixed in with the wax pieces and worm poops at the bottom board. With a
strong hive the wax moths don't stand a chance to infest them.
You don't want to weaken the strong hive either so their hive
population must keep up until the weather warm up again in another
3 months or so. With the rains here this may be a good eucalyptus flow year.
Like the almond hives I am totally prepared for the good flow this year. Thanks for all the
rains!


Here are mine now:


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

Thank you gentlemen. I did give both hives pollen patties in the summer and fall. We were using the Mannlake Ultra Bee Pollen Substitute. Toward the end of fall we noticed a terrible mold start on the pollen, so we stopped feeding the pollen patties.

My wife says there are three frames of bees left in the older hive.

I suppose I could throw in some dry Ultra Bee Pollen Substitute?

And Ray, here is the pic of the queen we found today as we inspected the hive...






She is the original queen that came with this hive from last April when we purchased the package of bees.

Beepro, we have not inspected either hive for several weeks now. I know, my fault and I take full responsibility. Been so overwhelmed that I have been fighting complete, total exhaustion for weeks at a time. In fact I had to call in sick a few days in November due to exhaustion. Man, doing all this plowing, planting, building, ect. alongside of my teaching job has taken a toll. We recently populated the property with sheep, and this is taking much more time commitment than I ever dreamed...

This is what I do not understand: the younger hive that we split off of this older hive is thriving. The bees can be seen foraging and coming back with pollen sacs full. The bees in the new hive are big and fat and super healthy looking. The bees in the older give appear small and darker.

We sure do not want to lose this hive...

Is it ok if I simply put in the dry version of the Mannlake Ultra Bee Pollen Substitute? I would like to avoid the mold problem.

Please let me know.

Thank you!

Soar


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Queen might be failing, good thing we made a split when we did I guess. If they can make it another month, they should start brooding up again, just have to wait and see, not much to do now, stay out of them in this weather. The only thing to try, is find a pollen frame from the other hive and donate it.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

soarwitheagles said:


> 1. No brood at all that I could see.



There certainly is some brood in the combs. I believe your cluster dwindled due to varroa/virus. Photo 2 shows typical result. A few un-emerged pupae, a couple partially uncapped. Photo 5 shows the same thing. Dwindling cluster, dead pms brood. Pull those almost emerged pupae out of the comb with a pocket knife. They probably have flat stunted abdomens and shriveled wings. I believe the colony is dead and they don't yet know it.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

While I cannot see what M.P. is referring to, I will not argue, I also would suggest mites as the posible root cause of the situation. I had a dwindling hive, queen present, the bees were almost to lethargic to fly when I opened the hive & pulled frames. I sent sample to bee lab in maryland, they reported high mite levels, when I reported on bee source, comments were "flying dead".
this would be a good hive to practice your mite detection skills on.
As for personal exhaustion, I can sympathize there, have your md check for anemia. good luck. ... CE


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

This hive was interesting in terms of mites.... It got Apivar and multiple rounds of OAV, kept dropping mites. It could be that mites are taking a toll, but it wasn't for lack of trying to get rid of them, that's for sure.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

JRG13 said:


> This hive was interesting in terms of mites.... It got Apivar and multiple rounds of OAV, kept dropping mites.


Where did you see this? I've read both of the op's posts and don't see any mention of mite treatments.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

beemandan...

See here...

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ithout-hurting-the-bees&p=1338772#post1338772

That thread is why I did not mention varroa probs in this thread. 

I myself have a few hives here that had heavy varroa infestation signs even after treating. I used Apivar in August into September. The varroa mite problem was very great here in my location this year, even after treating.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Sorry Dan, I should've posted the link, thanks for cleaning up my slack for me Ray! I also dropped the Apivar in, personally, brand new package, opened on the spot.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I've got a hazy theory in the back of my mind. Some hives seem to handle varroa loads better than others. Perhaps in a yard with multiple hives, the hives that can handle the varroa better, push the mites out which then invade the other hives that do not fight the varroa as well on their own. If this theory is true, then that may explain why you have this one hive that is failing and the other is still going gangbusters. That would also explain your mite drop findings this fall even after multiple treatments of two different types, being Apivar and OAV. It would also explain why I have one hive here that is boiling over with bees, whereas the rest are mediocre to dead already. All hives were fed and treated the same, although they were all with differing aged queens and establishment as I was raising queens all season for expanding.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

JRG13 said:


> Queen might be failing...


that would be at the top of my list of suspects. they were treated and not much frass seen in combs. must be enough queen phermone present to keep the robbers at bay, but if the queen is failed adding pollen may initiate laying workers.

i would consider giving the weak colony a frame of brood with eggs if the strong one can spare it, along with a little pollen sub.


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

Gentlemen,

Thank you very, very much for your replies. I know so little, but tried so hard to make these hives successful. I appreciate your sharing your thoughts.

Wow, if it wasn't for JRG, and this hive dies, I would be batting 0.00%. Our first hive two years ago died, now this.

To be honest with you, this is a bit discouraging. 

I diligently checked these hives on a weekly basis for most of their life.
Up until three weeks ago, I was giving a weekly treatment of OA vapor for over an 8 week period. Recently, I am only seeing one or two mites on the SSB.
We put in Apivar.
We put in Apiguard.
I fed each hive with sugar syrup every three days.
I fed each hive pollen patties for months on end.

Man, what else could I have done?

This has been a lot of work but with such little success.

Perhaps I am not cut out to be a beekeeper...


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I'd vote for protein starvation, but a failing queen might give similar results.

Check the empty brood comb for frass, it's tiny white specks on the sides of the brood cells the bees have not removed.

Sadly, treatments for mites aren't always effective. Try some Mite Away Quick Strips -- nasty, but seem to be highly effective. Some mites are probably becoming resistant to Apivar by now, it's a common problem with organophosphate neurotoxin pesticides, and it doesn't appear that mites are developing resistance to the organic acids.

Mites don't move between hives without bees, but you can get quite a bit of drift from an infested hive to one with a stronger queen that carries mites along. That may also be what happened to your hive -- a hive containing a failing queen with low mandibular pheromone production will "lose" bees to a hive with a strong queen.

Peter


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Every hive is different. With same treatments and feedings, some hives make it some don't. There are many factors that can contribute to this. It could be a failing queen, but it may not. I think it's sometimes not the queen, but the bees in the hive. They are groups of half sisters with different fathers... perhaps the fathers were no good or perhaps the mix of the groups are not good for survival, perhaps it is the queen. Perhaps strong hygienic hives push mites out and they collect in weaker hygienic hives. There are so many variables from hive to hive that we may not ever know the full picture or all the answers. All I can say at the moment is that not all hives are worth trying to save. Keep the good ones and make queens from them. Try to have more than one good one so that you can contribute to the drones in the area.

It's not always about whether we are good beekeepers or not, or what if I did something wrong, or what if I missed doing something right. Sometimes it's just the hive of bees that is the problem, for one reason or another.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I agree with Ray here.
Everytime there is a hive problem the beekeeper always
blaming him or herself. This was not a deliberate caused
by the beekeeper. i.e. I put 2 strong aggressive hives on top
of an ant hill in my first year. Ignorant to the facts. They all
died by the ants. Did not treat so the mites infestation was
huge in the Autumn time. This was my fault without any beekeeping knowlege. 
Tried 2 more times to finally got the hang of it.
In your case, you did everything you can. It could be an old queen
that is different from the young split queen. Old queen will stop laying
during the winter time without any feed stimulation. Also, this hive did not have the mite fighting bees so the mites got them. So the bee genetics play a big role here.
I would let them bee without disturbing the young strong hive. We still
have a long way to go until the Spring time. If she doesn't make it then
use the frames to boost your strong hive and make more splits from her.
In a way you are still a good beekeeper compare to me in the beginning.
You only lost 50%, I was at 100% almost 3 times. Now I have different
strategies to deal with the various bee problems. Keep it up to learn
more from this experience. As long as you have the bees then you
are still a beekeeper. Never give up! Remember, our job is to help
them along. Until we learn more we cannot help yet. 
My one goal for the coming season is to find the hive that has the least mites to graft from. So far I've
found one with good mite fighting ability. Without the mite fighting bees then the next
round is the same result. Then the beekeeper blaming again and even have doubts as
to why I am like that. Separate your emotions from the things that you cannot control much from the
outside environment. It is not your fault!


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

JRG13 said:


> This hive was interesting in terms of mites.... It got Apivar and multiple rounds of OAV, kept dropping mites. It could be that mites are taking a toll, but it wasn't for lack of trying to get rid of them, that's for sure.


Over treated perhaps


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

tech.35058 said:


> While I cannot see what M.P. is referring to,


Photo 2 has 17 pupae that failed to emerge. Don't you think it odd that the cluster would recede away from that brood? I see uncapped pupae...one on the bottom of the two far left. Another at the bottom in the group of 5. Another on the far right. Why would the cluster leave brood? Why wouldn't the pupae emerge...they look like they've matured to adults.

Photo 5... I see more brood. Here too the bees are not in contact with the brood. Don't you think it odd? 

The reason is that the cluster has lost most of it's bees. It has dwindled as the sick bees left the hive to perish in the field. The newly emerged bees that are supposed to be replacing the old bees are so compromised by virus that they too leave the hive. They can sometimes be seen as wingless crawlers trying to get their sickness away from their colony. You can easily see the larger size of the original cluster by looking at the dark comb and scattered brood in photo 5. 

This is all due to varroa and viruses. I realize you treated for varroa using OA. I treated with OAV for 3 years and almost lost my apiary. Didn't work for me either. Then you used Apivar and Apiguard. Apivar is only 3% amitraz, and I've read other reports where it wasn't effective enough to control the mite population. And Apiguard isn't effective enough to control high mite populations, especially once the colony has high virus titers. So you treated, eventually killed most of the mites, but the high virus load killed the colony anyway.

Anyway, that's my take on this colony and why I think it's doomed.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Nice analysis and explanation Michael. Mite treatment may or may not result in mite control and virus load is undoubtedly the wild card.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i'll defer to the experience of the seasoned veterans here. kind of scary to hear about the colony crashing despite jrg's oversight and intervention. i had a few instances of what i assumed was viral infection, evidenced by a limited number of devitalized brood being hauled out of the hives (some with deformed wings and some not), but this only lasted for a week or two and then stopped, and the colonies appeared to overcome it.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"It's not always about whether we are good beekeepers or not, or what if I did something wrong, or what if I missed doing something right. Sometimes it's just the hive of bees that is the problem, for one reason or another."

A statement replete with humility and wisdom fitting for the season.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

A less than stellar queen, lots of mites, and low hygenic behavior could cause this, so could failure to bring in enough pollen.

I had a swarm that was dropping mites like crazy all spring, had to wait until the colony was large enough to treat with formic acid pads. Probably should have done an oxalic acid dribble early on, and will do that next year for all swarms, should drop the mite load enough to let them take off better. They did survive, though, and seem to be doing well.

Still, you lose some no matter what you do, like that or not. With what I've learned the last few years, I would re-queen a hive piddling along with poor brood -- was going to do that this year on a hive that made it through the winter, but didn't thrive and didn't make surplus honey, but the bees beat me to it, when I checked prior to ordering a queen there were queen cells just about to "hatch" so I left well enough alone. Nice hive now, hopefully productive next year.

I like to watch the pollen load coming into the hive -- any hive not hauling pollen when the others are gets a good look to see why.

Peter


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I'll have to check, but I believe we made the split early September, the original queen wasn't the best as her brood frames were a mix of some good, some not so great patterns (so it was kind of hard to judge her), but the hive seemed to be doing ok at the time. At the time of the split, we dropped in Apivar into both the split and the original hive. Soar decided to test OAV later and was still getting fairly high mite drops, I was a little surprised but I guess I shouldn't have been since I've noticed Apivar to be fairly hit and miss this year as well. I could speculate onto the "why" but perhaps that's better left as a discussion somewhere else. Anyways, it seems the broodbreak + Apivar cleaned up the split well and Soar got a beautiful queen out of it so we're lucky in that regard. I do agree with MP a bit, I think the trend I'm seeing here is mites are stressing the bees earlier than previous years and waiting for fall treatments is too late as both the mite populations and viral load on colonies is reaching critical levels in early summer, especially under our conditions here if you're not feeding heavily. Colonies in better 'flow' areas can recover, but colonies in less than ideal areas just don't seem to recover, even after treating.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Quote Originally Posted by tech.35058 View Post
While I cannot see what M.P. is referring to, ...

This was actually more a comment on the resolution on my screen, and also to my not knowing what to look for.
thanks for the more detailed information ... I will see if I can get a better veiw & look again. pehaps less zoom on a bigger screen.
again thanks for the details & "where to look".
CE


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> Photo 2 has 17 pupae that failed to emerge. Don't you think it odd that the cluster would recede away from that brood? I see uncapped pupae...one on the bottom of the two far left. Another at the bottom in the group of 5. Another on the far right. Why would the cluster leave brood? Why wouldn't the pupae emerge...they look like they've matured to adults.
> 
> Photo 5... I see more brood. Here too the bees are not in contact with the brood. Don't you think it odd?
> 
> ...


Mike,

*I would like to say thank you for taking the time to share your incredible insights and knowledge.* 

It appears the death knell has sounded and it is time to toll the bell for another beehive funeral. Man, this sure is painful. I gave these bees far more time and care than any pet I have ever owned. Weekly inspections, twice weekly sugar syrup, bi-monthly pollen substitute, Apivar, Apiguard, OA treatments, brand new wonderful ant proof handmade beehive stand, etc. and now we are down to one hive again. We are presently one hive away from zero...

Please let me ask you: Is there anything I could I have done differently? Where did I go wrong on this?

Right now I am feeling like giving up but I do not want to give up because I already built lots of bee hive boxes, stand, frames, ect. Not to mention purchasing all the medicines, pollen substitute, and such.

I also for the first time in my entire life just planted acres of field...and I included clover for the bees...

Finally, in the next few weeks, literally hundreds of acres of Eucalyptus forest all around us will begin to bloom with massive pollen for all for at least a couple of months... 

Somebody please help me believe we can successfully raise bees in this day and hour.

Thanks,

Soar

Is there any hope we can succeed in this endeavor?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

There's some hope left, I wouldn't write them off just yet, if we have to we'll baby them in spring if they make it. You can test some of my genetics next year, see how they do, I'm hopeful we can find something that will tolerate some mites.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

soarwitheagles said:


> Mike, Please let me ask you: Is there anything I could I have done differently? Where did I go wrong on this?


First, let me say...don't beat yourself up over this. They're only bugs. They're not your dog or your kids. You can buy bees again, and probably in time for Eucalyptus. 

What could you differently? Did you ever do any mite surveys?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I do not have a good monitor also, so I must rely on the observations of those that precede me. Has there been any mention of virus symptoms? If not, I postulate:

Is there any evidence that this is NOT a pesticide spray issue? We have observed sub-lethal effects that decrease individual lifespans and seem to roughly halve metabolic efficiency. This would account for the reduced populations, brood that fails to hatch, and no pollen with patties being fed. 

If I was the OP, I would transfer one frame of mixed brood from the strong hive to the weak hive, and then swap spots. I would then lightly feed syrup and patties to both hives. I believe the outcome of this procedure, with mite monitoring, may result in information that will illuminate the causes of this situation.

Crazy Roland


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## MsBeHaven (May 31, 2013)

Soar, I will bow to the experts on this as I am just going into my fifth year beekeeping, but what I would do if I were in your shoes to try and get it to spring...
1) condense the hive to the smallest possible space. A single nuc box would not be amiss. If you don't have a nuc box , make or buy a divider board asap for the box its in. One box, not two! If the queen is laying, the crowd might be enough to cover what brood there is. 
2). Choose your frames for the nuc box wisely. Go for the ones with the most resources on them. Freeze the rest to feed back and expand it later. Drawn comb is valuable; don't give it to the moths!
3). Given the lack of brood, if and only if your other hive can spare it, put a frame of brood from your other hive in there. Don't snuff your queen yet! She may be old and failing, but the small space will help concentrate her pheromones along with any new brood to keep the hive from absonding. The goal is to get it to spring so you can requeen then.
4). Put a spacer on top and mountain camp feed with a pollen patty (no more than 2 in square if you have SHB)
5) reduce the entrance to a single bee spacing.

I personally wouldn't treat again with oav since you have prior to now, but I'd defer to the experts here. You just need a small spaced hive that the bees can adequately cover to keep any brood warm and protect the resources it has left from the moths. This still may not save it, but at least you can say you tried. If it does live, then you will have a small nuc to requeen and build up during the flow. Good luck. It's not always about being a bad beekeeper, sometimes it's a roll of the dice.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I love Roland's posts, he keeps you thinking. Here's why I think pesticides in this case are an unlikely culprit. While it's true that different hives will have somewhat different foraging habits, my experience is it would be pretty unusual for side by side hives to have such a dramatic difference in health. But even if that were the case, I would expect to see dead bees around the entrance, often accompanied by a pesticide odor and rotting unattended brood. With varroa, on the other hand, it isn't unusual to have widely varying varroa counts. Check out Jean Marc's excellent report on mite drops on the current OA vaporization thread for a good example of this.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"Somebody please help me believe we can successfully raise bees in this day and hour."

You can and will if you choose to continue. I would obtain queens and bees from a different source than you have in the past. Don't look back.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Michael, with 3 frame of bees left, do you have a strategy to save
this hive if you are able to? How to do so?
We're in a mild winter area with lots of rains this year after 4 years of
drought. The eucalyptus trees are blooming right now. So it is a good year for the tree flow. 
Gearing up for a good year of harvest this coming season.

In order to effectively treat with the oav, the hatching time or cycle cannot be ignored.
Get them when the new bees are hatching out around the 21st day with lots of mites attached.
If you missed a bee cycle then the mites will have a chance to established themselves on the next
hatch. With a few hives using the formic acid after taking the queen out should work better.


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

JRG13 said:


> There's some hope left, I wouldn't write them off just yet, if we have to we'll baby them in spring if they make it. You can test some of my genetics next year, see how they do, I'm hopeful we can find something that will tolerate some mites.


JRG,

Let me start off by saying I would be down to zero bees without your help. Thanks again for all your friendship, time, hard sweaty work when it was very hot here, excellent advice, incredibly successful split, encouragement and I could go on and on, and on. My only regret is I let myself get too maxed out and haven't kept my promise to take you out to dinner yet! I did not schedule correctly and have been working 14-16 hour days populating with sheep and all the work that entails such as fencing, injections, plowing and planting fields, coyote prevention, etc.

I look forward to sitting down with you over a good meal and simply asking how you are doing and what is new in your life!



Michael Palmer said:


> First, let me say...don't beat yourself up over this. They're only bugs. They're not your dog or your kids. You can buy bees again, and probably in time for Eucalyptus.
> 
> What could you differently? Did you ever do any mite surveys?


Michael, to be 100% honest with you, I completely left the mite surveys out. I never did one alcohol wash or sugar roll. I based my assumptions of mite numbers by daily looking at the SBB and perhaps that is where I have failed. Perhaps my unwillingness to repeatedly kill a cup of bees in alcohol has lead to the demise of an entire hive...



Roland said:


> I do not have a good monitor also, so I must rely on the observations of those that precede me. Has there been any mention of virus symptoms? If not, I postulate:
> 
> Is there any evidence that this is NOT a pesticide spray issue? We have observed sub-lethal effects that decrease individual lifespans and seem to roughly halve metabolic efficiency. This would account for the reduced populations, brood that fails to hatch, and no pollen with patties being fed.
> 
> ...


Roland thank you for sharing. I think any pesticide issues would have had at least a somewhat noticeable effect on both hives that are side by side. One hive is thriving in an incredible manner, the other is really struggling. My concern with mixing bees or frames is it may be possible that I would kill my last good hive and I am not so sure I could take that right now.



MsBeHaven said:


> Soar, I will bow to the experts on this as I am just going into my fifth year beekeeping, but what I would do if I were in your shoes to try and get it to spring...
> 1) condense the hive to the smallest possible space. A single nuc box would not be amiss. If you don't have a nuc box , make or buy a divider board asap for the box its in. One box, not two! If the queen is laying, the crowd might be enough to cover what brood there is.
> 2). Choose your frames for the nuc box wisely. Go for the ones with the most resources on them. Freeze the rest to feed back and expand it later. Drawn comb is valuable; don't give it to the moths!
> 3). Given the lack of brood, if and only if your other hive can spare it, put a frame of brood from your other hive in there. Don't snuff your queen yet! She may be old and failing, but the small space will help concentrate her pheromones along with any new brood to keep the hive from absonding. The goal is to get it to spring so you can requeen then.
> ...


MsBeHaven,

I like your advice...esp. how you recommend condensing to the smallest possible space and reducing the entrance spacing. Thanks for sharing.



jim lyon said:


> I love Roland's posts, he keeps you thinking. Here's why I think pesticides in this case are an unlikely culprit. While it's true that different hives will have somewhat different foraging habits, my experience is it would be pretty unusual for side by side hives to have such a dramatic difference in health. But even if that were the case, I would expect to see dead bees around the entrance, often accompanied by a pesticide odor and rotting unattended brood. With varroa, on the other hand, it isn't unusual to have widely varying varroa counts. Check out Jean Marc's excellent report on mite drops on the current OA vaporization thread for a good example of this.


Jim,

Yes, I think if this was a pesticide issue, I would have seen at least a tiny effect on the healthy hive, but the healthy hive is thriving like crazy right now.



Riverderwent said:


> "Somebody please help me believe we can successfully raise bees in this day and hour."
> 
> You can and will if you choose to continue. I would obtain queens and bees from a different source than you have in the past. Don't look back.


Riverderwent,

Thank you for your words of encouragement. I will ask JRG as he knows much more about where/when to obtain healthy queens in this neck of the woods. JRG helped split the hives and the new queen is incredibly strong and healthy...so I have full confidence in him. My main goal now is to get him to the nearest sushi bar as fast as possible!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

beepro said:


> Michael, with 3 frame of bees left, do you have a strategy to save
> this hive if you are able to? How to do so?
> We're in a mild winter area


I realize this colony is in California and not Vermont. And if the colony had 3 frames of brood then maybe they can be saved in California. But I see a frame with some bees, not a frame of bees. Because of the way they look...dwindled away from their brood and only a small cluster at the top of the frame...I can only guess they aren't really viable, and will continue to dwindle. And maybe it's because I have so many bees and don't think it's worth saving them, but I would shake them out and re-stock the hive when bees become available.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

soarwitheagles said:


> Perhaps my unwillingness to repeatedly kill a cup of bees in alcohol has lead to the demise of an entire hive...


Well, you don't have to do it very often. You could sample one time in the spring to get a base line count, and maybe again a month later to observe any change. And you could use powdered sugar and not alcohol, so you wouldn't kill any bees. But losing a third of a cup of bees once in awhile won't hurt a colony.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Soar, don't take my 2 cents worth as being flippant or uncaring. Every beekeeper regardless of experience loses hives, it's just part of the beekeeping experience. Fall and winter losses are not worth beating yourself up over, what upsets me is when you lose a hive due to carelessness the following spring after they have survived a winter and consumed a lot of honey in the process. The cool thing about beekeeping, though, is there always the next spring swarming season to look forward to.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Soarwitheagles, welcome to the job of forever diagnosing your failures. After a while with your hard earned experience you will be able to assess and diagnose hives within seconds of opening the lid. You will also run into many hives that leave you scratching your head.


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> Well, you don't have to do it very often. You could sample one time in the spring to get a base line count, and maybe again a month later to observe any change. And you could use powdered sugar and not alcohol, so you wouldn't kill any bees. But losing a third of a cup of bees once in awhile won't hurt a colony.


Yes, you're right. I will prepare to do the sugar rolls this time.



jim lyon said:


> Soar, don't take my 2 cents worth as being flippant or uncaring. Every beekeeper regardless of experience loses hives, it's just part of the beekeeping experience. Fall and winter losses are not worth beating yourself up over, what upsets me is when you lose a hive due to carelessness the following spring after they have survived a winter and consumed a lot of honey in the process. The cool thing about beekeeping, though, is there always the next spring swarming season to look forward to.


Jim,

It's painful to give our best effort and then having a 66% failure rate [we lost 2 our of 3 of our hives]. We were hoping to split two hives this spring and hopefully make it to 4 hives in 2016.

Not so sure that is possible now.

I'll be more careful this spring by doing the sugar rolls.



Ian said:


> Soarwitheagles, welcome to the job of forever diagnosing your failures. After a while with your hard earned experience you will be able to assess and diagnose hives within seconds of opening the lid. You will also run into many hives that leave you scratching your head.


Ian,

If I keep running into so many challenges in beekeeping, I won't have any hair left because I plumb scratched all my hair off! Then people will call me, Soar, the ex-beekeeper Bald Eagle!


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## ladybug (Jun 27, 2015)

Awe....... My very words 2 years ago! Perhaps I was not meant to be a Beekeeper!!!!!
Beekeeping should not be stress full, they said. Don't worry so much, they said. They are insects and have minds all their own, they said. All of which are true by the way, However, I really should have started 3 years sooner! You should give yourself 3 years for a new business, before you start to see the upside! Think of the first 3 years are a learning experience! And the best advise of all? It is not the end of the world if you loose a hive! So relax, do your best and cross your fingers! Beekeeping is not text book! They ARE insects! Don't give up yet!!!!!!!!! I feel your discouragement. It does get better!
And eat leafy greens! Fresh, frozen or canned spinach, mustard greens, collard greens. You will perk up in NO time !!!! It's amazing!!! 
I'm guessing your age, and I know your active stresses, we went through it too this year. NEED IRON
Pray to the Bee Goddess. That always helps!


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

ladybug said:


> Awe....... My very words 2 years ago! Perhaps I was not meant to be a Beekeeper!!!!!
> Beekeeping should not be stress full, they said. Don't worry so much, they said. They are insects and have minds all their own, they said. All of which are true by the way, However, I really should have started 3 years sooner! You should give yourself 3 years for a new business, before you start to see the upside! Think of the first 3 years are a learning experience! And the best advise of all? It is not the end of the world if you loose a hive! So relax, do your best and cross your fingers! Beekeeping is not text book! They ARE insects! Don't give up yet!!!!!!!!! I feel your discouragement. It does get better!
> And eat leafy greens! Fresh, frozen or canned spinach, mustard greens, collard greens. You will perk up in NO time !!!! It's amazing!!!
> I'm guessing your age, and I know your active stresses, we went through it too this year. NEED IRON
> Pray to the Bee Goddess. That always helps!


Ladybug,

You are funny. Well, we do eat massive greens here as JRG can attest. We are presently growing our fall/winter/spring kales and mustards and they are thriving. So I eat my greens everyday. I suppose another aspect of this beekeeping adventure is that I am in nearly $2000 now, massive labor hours, and the only thing I have to show for it are two dead hives, one healthy hive, and a whole lot of disappointment.

Last, I have scratched my head so much trying to figure out all this bee business and now I have lost all my hair and fear people calling me a bald eagle. Please see my pic! It is also possible I may be losing my mind over all these dead bees!

What can I say?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Relax and let your hair grow. One way or another you are going to get the beekeeping thing down to an art.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Mr. Lyon - 5 years ago I would have totally agreed with you. Dead bees and a smell where indicators of poison. Now, the bees seem to die outside the hive, leaving no trace.

AS for variance, we actually see more with spray than mites. The strong hives can forage farther and get into something that the weak hives do not. It is common to loose 90 percent in a yard and have the remaining 10 percent of weak hives be fine.

If mites are weakening the OP's hive, then I would expect to find that they are migrating to the other hive before it fails.

Crazy Roland


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Facing a dying hive every bee is precious when trying to save them.
Maybe I'm just a frugal beekeeper. Even with one frame of bees I will
try to baby sit them all winter long. That is why I still have bees now. And
invested about $300-400 into this 4 years venture making my own bee equipment too.
The mentality of bee scarcity is very different from that of a bee abundance. Perhaps one
day my mind set might change toward the bees. Still buying in to the mentality that the bees need our
help. Going to plant some acres of the cleome and vipers to see what I will get.
Don't worry, Soar. Bald eagle or not one day you will learn the secret skills and art of beekeeping just
like we do. Though the learning curve can be steep at times.


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

Thanks again everyone for your input.

I thought I would try to be funny in order to lighten up.

My wife and I will remove the bottom box [where there are no bees], place the queen and the remaining bees in the top box, and down size the top box so the bees hopefully can be a little warmer.

We are still hoping for a miracle, but I had to prepare myself mentally and emotionally just in case they do not make it...

Happy New Year to all!

The Bald Eagle


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## michkel (Dec 1, 2012)

soarwitheagles said:


> Thanks again everyone for your input.
> 
> I thought I would try to be funny in order to lighten up.
> 
> ...


If you have a pollen patty, that might help limp them along. Our forage is a little different, but all you have to do is get them through another month or so until the first bloom. Last year, my fruit trees were blooming in January........but we had no winter last year. This year, I'm hoping they hold out until at least February. Our first big bloom is manzanita, which the bees work like crazy. We have dandelions before then, but I've yet to see a bee on my dandelions. Your temps are a bit warmer than mine, so you may see a first bloom earlier.

If they make it, plan on feeding the crap out of them and build them up strong before the end of spring.

I too have a hive that got a queen really late in the season, and I'm limping them along too. I'm hoping they make it, but if not, then I'll get a package to install in the spring.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I agree with your recent compaction/contraction of the hive.

Did you visually look for mites?

Did you swap spots with the strong hive?

Crazy Roland


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

michkel said:


> If you have a pollen patty, that might help limp them along. Our forage is a little different, but all you have to do is get them through another month or so until the first bloom. Last year, my fruit trees were blooming in January........but we had no winter last year. This year, I'm hoping they hold out until at least February. Our first big bloom is manzanita, which the bees work like crazy. We have dandelions before then, but I've yet to see a bee on my dandelions. Your temps are a bit warmer than mine, so you may see a first bloom earlier.
> 
> If they make it, plan on feeding the crap out of them and build them up strong before the end of spring.
> 
> I too have a hive that got a queen really late in the season, and I'm limping them along too. I'm hoping they make it, but if not, then I'll get a package to install in the spring.


michkel,

I inserted a pollen patty a couple of days ago. I also put a small pan of dry ultra pollen sub. inside as well. Tomorrow, we will remove the bottom box, place the top box with the remaining bees and queen on the SBB, then remove 6-7 frames, leaving only 3-4 frames. We were thinking about placing the styrofoam insulation on the top and on both sides of the 3-4 frames, to help with keeping the hive warm. Not much more we can do I suppose.



Roland said:


> I agree with your recent compaction/contraction of the hive.
> 
> Did you visually look for mites?
> 
> ...


Hi Roland and thanks again for your help. Yes, we carefully visually checked both hives for mites. The mite levels on both hives are at the lowest levels ever...can't even find a mite in the old hive, under a half dozen in the other. So most of the mites are gone. Haven't done the sugar roll, but will start doing it in the spring.

Swap spots with the strong hive? No way. The strong hive is the very last hive we have. I can't find the courage to place the healthy hive at risk in an attempt to save a half dead hive and I have already made the decision that if we lose all hives, then I am hanging up my beekeeping shoes for good. For now, I would like to keep them separate.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I understand your hesitation. When the bees are flying, you can swap spots, wait a day or two, and swap back. The chance of loosing the good hive is less. Some bees will stick with the weak hive. 

No mites, Eh? My pesticide hypothesis gains strength.

Crazy Roland


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Roland, you are the pro.
Even thought of swapping the hive position to
let them bring in some hive resources for the weak hive. See this is possible.
At this time there should be some eucalyptus blooming as seen on highway
99. Don't worry though the strong hive will issue more
foragers later on because the remaining nurse bees inside
will graduate to foragers eventually say in 2 weeks or more. The foragers
will live longer and some young one will be converted back to the nursing
bees for the weak hive. This will give the hive an instant boost in population when
they needed them the most now. The strong hive will not die out because
they will raise more bees to replace the hive population later on. Feed
the strong hive patty subs too. 
Yes, definitely condense them down to 4 frames with
the pollen/nectar frames on the edge next to the bee frame. Filled in the empty hive
space whatever filling that you can find.
It will take you some time to learn about beekeeping after making many more
mistakes. I'm the one who made the most mistakes and killing more bees than
anyone else here. Still I keep on learning and growing my hives with better bee experiments.
If you can hang on until this Spring time then your bee experience will grow even more on the
bee expansion phase. So don't be afraid to do some bee experiment by swapping the hive
position now.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We prefer to swap in a frame of brood, but early in the year it is safer to swap hive positions, especially if the weak hive can not cover the brood. 

I hope you can closely monitor this situation and report back with your findings.

Crazy Roland


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

Thanks again for excellent input.

I will take pictures and also report back with the outcomes.

Happy New Year to everyone here at BS!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I got around to paying soar a visit Sunday. The new split was looking alright, had grown from about 6 frames of bees when we found it queenright last fall to 20 frames, packed with bees, nectar, pollen, and all sorts of brood. The bees made a lot of drone brood between the boxes, we cleaned it up but it was pretty mite infested which is pretty surprising since when we split the hive in September I believe, it got a brood break and Apivar. After we found a laying queen I believe it got 5-6 weeks of OAV as well, and another round a little while ago. Oddly enough, the daughter queen looks very Carniolan to me, but mom looks like your run of the mill Italian and most of the bees look like typical Italians as well but she is a laying machine and the bees work flying hard. I checkerboarded the second box and added a third, checkerboarding it as well. I'm betting everything will be filled and drawn in 2 weeks and it'll be ready to super for a eucalyptus bloom. Overall though, brood looked excellent, saw a few phoretic mites and one bee with DWV. I'm hoping most of the mites were in the drone brood we removed, I did get a nice picture of one pupae just totally infested too.

I think I counted 9 mites total, not all are visible in the picture.



Parent hive was another story.... shrunk down to about a frame of bees. From what I could tell from the dead fall/winter brood that was left, PMS had set in after we performed the split. Again, a little surprising since we also dropped in Apivar and Soar Oav'd the heck out of them late fall, 5-6 weeks. That being said, I'm betting they recover as they were pretty mite free now and the queen had over a handsized patch of brood laid on both sides of the frame. Abundant pollen and capped honey was still available.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

That is crazy there are we more mites on that one drone pupae than 200 drones I pulled last yr on a 2 yr old untreated hive. Get this guy some of your queens asap


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

My initial reaction is that better genetics need to be searched out. Oliver had a presentation where good genetics is still the basis of successful treatment. If your bees keep the mites to 15 per hundred bees and your treatment is 90 percent effective then you have 1.5 mites left. If things get nasty and mites get to 40, then you still have 4 mites per hundred left. Big difference in subsequent mite build up. 

I also suspect diminishing returns, even negative effects with so much treating and what condition will the queen be in after so much chemical exposure?. How can a hive be healthy after being subjected to so much abuse (with good intentions). 

Is it not possible to get a few more nucs going to replace losses? I worked hard last year to get lots of nucs going. I could have had 100 percent failure of my 2nd winter hives and still had more bees than I had last year, and that is TF. Maybe start some nucs and bring in some queens that have a chance with varroa.


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## appalachianoutdoors (May 16, 2015)

I agree with the above post, learn from the past, but focus on what you have to work with now. Reduce hive size, feed pollen and dry sugar as needed, follow directions for all treatments and do not over treat. Take it as a challenge, you'll make it.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Our area is special or something... mites love it. I can't say I did much better, lost about 50% overwinter, some were due to robbing at the new location which has zero forage in fall and winter apparently. I did have a few queens do well though, I won't mention the breeder but there's some glimmer at the end of the tunnel. I've been evaluating a lot of different stocks though, not much has held up. I'm hoping to test some more proven lines this year though but the mites just seem to kick a lot of tail around here. I did capture a swarm in West Sacramento that seemed to overwinter ok, but they got some mites going pretty well, but they're also in a better forage area. Seeing mites in the split we did though, not surprising since she's grown that hive by 13-14 frames from October....


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I overwinter a lot of nucs, they get hit hard as well. I've brought in a lot of genetics to test the old TF model here, it's been hard on the pocket book but it's been very eye opening as well. I've brought in various TF stocks from known suppliers and various VSH strains, none last a single year w/o some chemical help. I'm down for testing so called survivor genetics anytime you want to send me some, I'll pay for them, but I'm willing to bet over 95% of them will not last the year and I could treat them at introduction in May or June and they'll be mited out by November.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

JRG13 sees the same thing that I do here. I started treatments at end of July and pulled out all treatments by end of September to first of October. By the end of November the hives were all re-infested and crashing. I put treatments back on December 15th, on almost all of them. They all were down to 1 - 2 frames of bees by end of January. The ones with no December treatment were down to less than 1/2 frames of bees. My treatments here were all Apivar. I've not tried as many strains of bees as JRG13 has, but I've tried a lot over the last 6 years at this location. It's the same every year, PMS and hive losses. I went 4-5 years TF doing nothing but timely splits, same thing, lose 85-100 percent of all hives by spring. Any left had to be babied along and boosted and treated to get up to size by summer, then the spring flows are over. My opinion is that TF will not work in my location. I'm betting that most of the California Central Valley is the same. Partly it's our climate, it's also because of the large hive immigration numbers in the fall, and I'm sure other reasons as well.

For the last 2 winters, I've had 100% survival, and 90% were in good to booming shape by March 1 and that was with apivar treatment.


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

I would like to say a very, very BIG THANK YOU TO JRG13 as well as all the helpful people here at Beesource.com.

Without your help, I would be batting O [zero] for how ever many bee hives I purchased and attempted to set up!

I am extremely happy and thankful right now and kinda feel like dancin'.

Please let me focus upon the positive first:

1. A split beehive that grew from 6 somewhat feeble frames to 20 freight train roaring frames...and most of the growth somehow occurred during the winter! For me, that is a miracle! I only wish I had taken a video so all could see it!

2. JRG came over when there was literally no more room for the bees to expand [both deeps were filled solid]. Perhaps he came by just in time to prevent the bees from making new queen cells, splitting, and flying away!

3. We were able to add a new super into the thriving hive and now they are filling super number 3 at an incredible rate and it is still winter....wow!

4. This new queen has no stopping sense when it comes to laying eggs...when we opened the hive, she had been laying eggs all over the hive, both lower and upper. Now I just hope we can make some new queens from her brood if possible. She is an absolute beast when it comes to laying healthy eggs.

5. The older hive that so many pronounced the death sentence upon and rang the death knell [and I had given up all hope of surviving], has begun to pick up. The queen is laying eggs now too. We are hoping for a full complete recovery.

6. Both hives are still alive even though I did nearly nothing to them all winter long. Most of the time, I simply left them alone because I was too depressed/afraid to want to look inside! [I had already told myself to give up and just try some new hives in the spring, or, better yet, hang up my beekeeping shoes forever].

7. Very nice bloom occurring now all over the place. Lots of fruit trees, wild mustard, rosemary, etc. But we are still anticipating an outrageous Eucalyptus tree bloom here real soon.

8. Now we have bees to pollinate our orchard and garden plants. Yeah!

So Soar brings tiding of great joy to you today!

Thanks again everyone for your time, helpful posts, and patience with a total newbie!

Please remember, even though I have done massive reading in both books and forums, watched all sorts of Youtube bee videos, etc. I am less than a preschooler when it comes to keeping bees. And I suppose that is why I am so happy to see these results.

Now I am tempted to change the title of the thread to: *"Something is wonderfully right with this hive!"*


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Instead of changing title on this thread, just start a new thread huh? One to track your adventures for this bee year season!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Same observation here for the last 4 years about the
notorious mites. We live in a semi-desert like condition
so without proper food source the mites will crash our hives.
In the early Spring time like right now it is time to keep the
mites in control in order for the bees to grow. To get to step
3 in the tf process the mite resistant hives with good drone
genetics must be keep in the same food abundant area in order for
the virgin queens to be mated. This will ensure that the inferior
genetics will not get mixed in for the next queen generation in an
open mating situation. I'm still new to beekeeping and learning every
day. The next step is for me to install my homemade oav gadget under
the hives to grow more bees. What I did was removed all the capped
broods from the strong hive to give them to the weaker hives without
the bees attached. Then give the original hive some clean drawn comb
to start afresh. After all the bees hatched from the removed capped frames
along with the mites then I will oav them. This should keep the hives
clean for awhile for further monitoring. Then you can requeen the non
resistant queens or make nucs out of them. The end goal is to grow more
bees than the mites. I still believe that somewhere in the mix there are
some queens that showed the resistant traits good enough for a graft.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

RayMarler said:


> I started treatments at end of July and pulled out all treatments by end of September to first of October. By the end of November the hives were all re-infested and crashing.


Do you do any post treatment testing?
Is it possible that your mites are developing resistance to amitraz?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

beemandan said:


> Do you do any post treatment testing?
> Is it possible that your mites are developing resistance to amitraz?


With the use of Taktic, I wouldn't be surprised if Apivar doesn't have enough active ingredient anymore.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

JRG13 said:


> I overwinter a lot of nucs, they get hit hard as well. I've brought in a lot of genetics to test the old TF model here, it's been hard on the pocket book but it's been very eye opening as well. I've brought in various TF stocks from known suppliers and various VSH strains, none last a single year w/o some chemical help. I'm down for testing so called survivor genetics anytime you want to send me some, I'll pay for them, but I'm willing to bet over 95% of them will not last the year and I could treat them at introduction in May or June and they'll be mited out by November.


Wow, that seems so extreme compared to what I'm experiencing so far TF. But I am off the beaten path as far as bees are concerned. There may be big migratory operations that blow through here, but don't settle to cause havoc. No big crops to pollinate here. I'm also in semi desert, but have a really good fall flow most years. I may just chase some mountain flows. May be good for the bees to avoid the summer dearth. 

Are you using robber screens in the late summer/fall to keep hive to hive mite transfer down? If things look out of control, do you consider screening in or otherwise euthanize a hive to keep mite spread down? Sounds to me that some methods in addition to chemical control could be used. 

There are some folks in urban California that seem to do pretty good TF. Be interesting to map relative success in your state.


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

RayMarler said:


> Instead of changing title on this thread, just start a new thread huh? One to track your adventures for this bee year season!


Ray,

Hi again! I was only joking about changing the title of the thread! But it does seem lots of things are right now with these bees, and for me it is wonderful.

To be honest with you, I am happy as heck that the one hive is thriving and the other is making a come back.

I am also looking forward to hopefully splitting the healthy hive and maybe even try to make some nucs if possible. I will have to ask JRG13 about this!

One factor that really has me bewildered...

Each time in the past when I treated with the oxalic acid vapor, the mites dropped like crazy onto the SBB, but there was a near 100% death rate of the mites discovered on the SBB.

Last week, after treatment, I found nearly 100 mites, but nearly all of them were alive and crawling around...it was kinda spooky...never seen that ever before.

Like I said, in the past, most mites found on the SBB were stone dead.

Anyhow, one more question for all the bee professionals and varroa warriors here:

Is there another chemical or effective treatment we can use other than the Apivar, Apiguard, and OA vapor that will not hurt the bees at this time of the year?


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

That is an interesting observation. Happens once, the dosage is low. If it starts happening more often...


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

soarwitheagles said:


> Last week, after treatment, I found nearly 100 mites, but nearly all of them were alive and crawling around...it was kinda spooky...never seen that ever before.
> 
> Like I said, in the past, most mites found on the SBB were stone dead.


From reading some information on the mode of action for oav...info from member snl....the oxalic acid vapor doesn't kill the mites directly on contact. Instead the acid crystals that are deposited throughout the hive damage the mites' feet so that they fall to the bottom of the hive and are no longer able to hitch another ride on a bee. It would explain the live mites on the bottom. I expect that they perish pretty soon though....which might explain why they were mostly dead in the past.


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## soarwitheagles (May 23, 2015)

beemandan said:


> From reading some information on the mode of action for oav...info from member snl....the oxalic acid vapor doesn't kill the mites directly on contact. Instead the acid crystals that are deposited throughout the hive damage the mites' feet so that they fall to the bottom of the hive and are no longer able to hitch another ride on a bee. It would explain the live mites on the bottom. I expect that they perish pretty soon though....which might explain why they were mostly dead in the past.


Beemandan,

I have heard how the OA enters in through the mite foot pads...but I never connected the dots...

What you just wrote sure makes a lot of sense.

Thanks for sharing.

I treated with OAV again last Monday. Checking to see if many mites have fallen, but I do not see as many falling now. So perhaps we have killed more than we realize. According to many, I need to do the alchohl wash or the powdered sugar roll.

I will do my best to do one or both tests soon.

Does anyone recommend other mite killing treatments that are not too harmful to the bees?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

soarwitheagles said:


> According to many, I need to do the alchohl wash or the powdered sugar roll.


Another possibility currently being discussed on a different thread....using the mite drops from oav as measure of infestation levels. 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...as-a-monitoring-tool-and-not-just-a-treatment


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