# Neighbor contesting our beekeeping permit - advice for the upcoming hearing?



## Jesse (May 15, 2006)

Hi All, 

My wife and I were hoping to be picking up 2 Nucs in a couple of weeks, but we were just notified that our permit from the City of Sturgeon Bay, WI is being contested. To set the stage, we live in a "nice" neighborhood where lawns are heavily fertilized and sprayed and the mulch is piled 8" up the tree trunks - we bought our house last summer and have spent a good portion of our time ripping up sod and planting natives. Up until this point, our biggest issue in the neighborhood were the plethora of rabbits. 

Evidently our neighbor to the south, with a massive house along the canal, has cited allergies, general nuisance, attraction of predators, and "everything in the book against bees" according to the government official we spoke with. We get to be the guinea pigs, as there has never been someone to fight a permit and have it go to a hearing. In our permit we showed location of the potential hives - over 30' from property line with 50' of woods between our respective yards, along with having a nearby water source. We will be installing a perimeter fence, though the portion in the woods was going to be chickenwire (for the upcoming flock, can't wait for that fight). 

Luckily we were able to get a refund on the Nucs, but we're very disappointed our beekeeping days are at least a year out and would be devastated if we couldn't...

So this is my request to the Beesource hivemind: Do you have advice for contesting these arguments against beekeeping? Can you point me to any specific articles, popular or scientific that would help us in our fight to keep bees? 

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Jesse & Samantha


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Jesse said:


> Hi All,
> 
> My wife and I were hoping to be picking up 2 Nucs in a couple of weeks, but we were just notified that our permit from the City of Sturgeon Bay, WI is being contested. To set the stage, we live in a "nice" neighborhood where lawns are heavily fertilized and sprayed and the mulch is piled 8" up the tree trunks - we bought our house last summer and have spent a good portion of our time ripping up sod and planting natives. Up until this point, our biggest issue in the neighborhood were the plethora of rabbits.
> 
> ...


*Rule #1: Do not apply for a permit. Just put the bees on your property.

Rule #2: Put a fence up so your neighbors can't see.
*

If they do take you to court, claim hardship and that you need the honey for food and survival during the economic crisis of COVID-19. 

I'd love to see my neighbors try that **** on me. 

They literally can try to make me remove the bees. I have a number of other locations I could move them to if the police showed up and tried to force me to move them.

I'd LOVE for someone to take the effort into trying to force me to remove bees from my property. It'd be entertaining.

I didn't apply for a permit. I checked with my township to make sure there wasn't some sort of township rule. 

Shoot first, ask questions later when it comes to bees. Put the ball in their court. Force their hand.


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Can the neighbor prove that someone in the houshold is deathly allergic to bees? Can they prove they are a nuisance without them ever having been there? What predators? Is Sturgeon Bay rife with bears? Sounds like a lot of hot air by someone who knows little of the subject matter. Tell them to go to the lakeshore and pound sand.


----------



## Jesse (May 15, 2006)

They will have to prove their allergy at the hearing. My wife is allergic and we have epi-pens onsite. There are zero bears in Sturgeon, less than a handful in the entire county.


----------



## Jesse (May 15, 2006)

username00101 said:


> *Rule #1: Do not apply for a permit. Just put the bees on your property.
> 
> Rule #2: Put a fence up so your neighbors can't see.
> *
> ...


HA! This was the route I was going to go, but my wife works for county government...


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Jesse said:


> HA! This was the route I was going to go, but my wife works for county government...


Is it a county rule, township rule, or a HOA rule?


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Check to see what ordinances apply.
Comply by the ones on the books, or get a variance.

What the neighbor "wants" is not in the rule book.

If you have an HOA then , bad news, one more layer of someone telling you what to do.

No HOA, it is what ever that township/city allows.

BTW do put up a trail cam, irrational odd folks sometimes take matters into their our hands, do not rule out sabotage.

Maybe put the "empty hives" out now and say yea the bees are here, see what shakes loose. they will claim to have been harmed by your bees and in front of someone compitant you can state the hives are empty so it cannot be your bees.

GG


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Gray Goose said:


> Check to see what ordinances apply.
> Comply by the ones on the books, or get a variance.
> 
> What the neighbor "wants" is not in the rule book.
> ...


This is an interesting idea.

Put several empty hives in the front of your house, where everyone can see them.


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

With the COVID-19 situation, you are probably OK just having bees without a permit.

Put up a fence this weekend, and get your bees.

Or just get them without a fence.

Courts in my location are closed indefinitely.

I could start herding goats around my neighborhood and no one would be able to stop me


----------



## Jesse (May 15, 2006)

username00101 said:


> Is it a county rule, township rule, or a HOA rule?


City ordinance 

34.14 - Keeping of bees.

(1)

Permit and fees required.

(a)

Persons that keep bees within the limits of the city must first obtain a permit from the community development department. No person shall keep, maintain, or allow to be kept any hive or other facility for the housing of honey bees on or in any property within the city limits without first obtaining a permit.

(b)

Applications for a permit to keep or maintain bees will be made on such forms as provided by the city community development department. Applicants shall provide a detailed lot diagram of the beekeeping equipment location including the distances to property lines and from nearby structures on neighboring properties. A permit fee as established by the common council shall be paid.

(c)

If the application complies with the requirements of subsection (2), the department shall send by regular mail information regarding beekeeping and the proposal to adjacent properties. This information shall include behavior of bees and location of hives on the subject property. It shall be provided to the owners and tenants of all adjacent property within 100 feet of the location of hives on the property and shall advise of the ability to object in writing to the proposed beekeeping.

(d)

If no written objection is received within 30 days of the date of the notice, the permit shall be issued. If a written objection is received, the matter shall be referred to the community protection and services committee for a hearing. After the hearing the committee may approve or deny the permit and may place any conditions deemed appropriate upon an approved permit.

(e)

Permits shall not be transferable or refundable. Only the owner of the lot upon which the hive(s) is proposed to be kept, or an occupant of the lot with the owner's written permission, is eligible to obtain a beekeeping permit. Only one beekeeping permit shall be issued per lot.

(f)

All new permits issued shall expire one year after issuance unless sooner revoked. All renewal permits shall expire three years after issuance unless sooner revoked.

(2)

Conditions for keeping and maintaining hives.

(a)

Only honey bees (hereinafter referred to collectively and individually as "bees") may be kept under this section.

(b)

Keeping of bees shall not be permitted on lots containing three or more dwelling units (multiple-family dwellings).

(c)

Approval of a permit application is subject to reasonable restrictions, limitations, conditions, or prohibitions prescribed by the city. Any approved permit shall specify any restrictions, limitations, conditions or prohibitions deemed necessary by the city to safeguard public health and the general welfare, and deemed necessary to reduce the likelihood of public or private nuisance.

(d)

Beekeeping equipment shall be restricted to rear yards and side yards. Beekeeping equipment may also be permitted on a roof provided such equipment is screened from view and is determined by the community development department to otherwise meet the setback and other requirements of this chapter.

(e)

Beekeeping equipment shall not be located closer than 25 feet from any property line, 25 feet from a street or public sidewalk, nor 25 feet from a dwelling unit on an abutting lot.

(f)

No more than two hives are allowed per lot. This maximum may be waived with approval by the community protection and services committee.

(g)

Bee colonies shall be kept in hives with removable frames, which shall be kept in sound and usable condition.

(h)

Each beekeeper shall ensure that a sufficient and convenient source of fresh water is available to the colony.

(i)

Each beekeeper shall ensure that no wax comb or other materials that might encourage robbing by other bees are left upon the grounds of the apiary lot. Such materials once removed from the site shall be handled and stored in sealed containers, or placed within a building or other insect-proof container.

(j)

Each beekeeper shall maintain beekeeping equipment in good condition and securing unused equipment from weather, potential theft or vandalism and occupancy by swarms. It shall be a violation of this section for any beekeeper's unused equipment to attract a swarm, even if the beekeeper is not intentionally keeping honey bees.

(k)

For each apiary the beekeeper shall conspicuously post a sign including the words "HONEY BEE HIVE" and his/her name clearly readable at 25 feet away. A copy of the permit shall be placed in a conspicuous place on the hive.

(l)

The city staff shall have the right to inspect any permitted beekeeping equipment at all reasonable times for any proper purpose. Where practicable, prior notice shall be given to the beekeeper.

(m)

Hives shall be actively maintained. Hives not under active human management and maintenance shall be deemed abandoned and dismantled or removed from the property by the property owner.



In any instance in which a hive exhibits unusually aggressive characteristics, it shall be the duty of the beekeeper to destroy or re-queen the hive. Queens shall be selected from stock bred for gentleness and non-swarming characteristics.

(o)

In addition to compliance with the requirements of this section, no beekeeper shall keep a hive or hives that cause any unhealthy conditions or interfere with the normal use and enjoyment of human or animal life of others, any public property or property of others.

(3)

Permit suspension/revocation. The city may suspend or revoke any permit issued pursuant to this section for violations of ordinances, laws or requirements regulating activity and for other good cause.

(4)

Appeals. Permit decisions made by the community development departments, including permit denial, suspension or revocation, may be appealed to the community protection and services committee. Permit decisions made by the community protection and services committee may be appealed to the common council.

(5)

Violation and penalty. Any person who violates this chapter or fails to obtain a permit for beekeeping shall result in the property and apiary to be deemed a public nuisance, and is subject to violations and enforcement within Chapter 11.


----------



## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

"Maybe put the "empty hives" out now and say yea the bees are here, see what shakes loose. they will claim to have been harmed by your bees and in front of someone compitant you can state the hives are empty so it cannot be your bees."

I like that idea.Just put out an empty and let them complain all the way up until court.If they complain of your nuisance bees you can say "what bees I dont have any bees". Let them show their ignorance.Oh and put something in front of the empty hive so they cant tell if there is actually is or isnt some bees occupying the hive.An the camera are a must.I had a couple guy coming onto my property and found my 4 wheeler.They came back a second time with hands on it again and pointing like they were plotting a way to cut the chain and get it out through the woods.I put out a sign that said they were on camera and its private property and to keep your hands off of my 4 wheeler.Well they came back and stopped at the sign and turned around and left and havent been back.


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I like the idea of placing the hives and making it known they are there. See what shakes out. Wait for the neighbor to claim they have been stung by one of YOUR (nonexistant) bees (probably a yellow jacket anyhow). Be sure to have the entrances blocked off so you are not in violation of section (j).


----------



## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

JWPalmer said:


> Be sure to have the entrances blocked off so you are not in violation of section (j).


I would also use something black and block it from the inside so it looks open. You could really have some fun with this Karen. 

I'd probably do fake inspections too.


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

c)

Approval of a permit application is subject to reasonable restrictions, limitations, conditions, or prohibitions prescribed by the city. Any approved permit shall specify any restrictions, limitations, conditions or prohibitions deemed necessary by the city to safeguard public health and the general welfare, and deemed necessary to reduce the likelihood of public or private nuisance.

What have the previous limitations been imposed by the city? There are no other criteria specified, but the city has to remain somewhat consistent with prior practice. Find out in advance.

Any chance you can find a spot to meet the 100 ft from that neighbor? Relocation by even a few feet shows cooperation.


----------



## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

JWPalmer said:


> I like the idea of placing the hives and making it known they are there. See what shakes out. Wait for the neighbor to claim they have been stung by one of YOUR (nonexistant) bees (probably a yellow jacket anyhow). Be sure to have the entrances blocked off so you are not in violation of section (j).


Best idea, yet.


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

If there are no openings it is not for keeping bees. It is just to see what color would look best. Blocked off empty hive body is legal.


----------



## Jesse (May 15, 2006)

Saltybee said:


> c)
> 
> Approval of a permit application is subject to reasonable restrictions, limitations, conditions, or prohibitions prescribed by the city. Any approved permit shall specify any restrictions, limitations, conditions or prohibitions deemed necessary by the city to safeguard public health and the general welfare, and deemed necessary to reduce the likelihood of public or private nuisance.
> 
> ...


We thought of this if we are denied, the problem is the hives would be very close to our house and in the area we have surrendered to our dog...


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Jesse said:


> City ordinance
> 
> 34.14 - Keeping of bees.
> 
> ...



Like I said in my previous posts, we are not in "normal" times anymore. Those rules were designed for keeping up with the joneses. The joneses now have COVID-19, and their kids are probably unemployed.

COVID-19 means you don't have to follow the rules about silly things like mowing the grass, maintaining your property, etc. no one is going to be able to enforce the rules other than trying to scare you.

I'd just get the bees, and then refuse to remove them. Tell them its a matter of life and death, blame COVID-19.

Your wife's position shouldn't make any difference, but it might make for a good story in the office.


----------



## HayHayBEE (Jun 11, 2018)

I'm also getting my first bees this season and live in that fertilized lawn, 8" mulch type of neighborhood you're talking about. The laws where I live are much different and kind of interesting. If the hive is within 50 ft of a property line, you need a barrier at least 5 feet high in front of the entrance (it can be artificial or a plant) and you have to provide the bees with water. I think their idea is that beeline will be above head height. Maybe bring up that idea at the hearing? I agree with the previous posters about just getting it and keeping it on the down low. With a perimeter fence, nobody's even going to see it anyway. Same with the chickens. People don't have anything to do right now and are probably just trying to pick a fight.


----------



## JimD (Feb 3, 2018)

Amazing. Pretty poor guidelines. I had the problem where I live under a general nuisance and other clause but I talked with a sane person on the HOA board and she fixed the problem. One neighbor wanted bees and the other side did not know or care that I had them. I back up to woods, 100 yards from the street and 60 yards from my house and 75 or more to the other two houses. It is one of those random fears or in this case and HOA member that did not even know the facts other than back yard and bees.

That sounds as ridiculous than Chicago's laws against honest people owning firearms. (One of the big guys in Houston talk radio used to give the weekend total of killings and deaths every Monday for Chicago.


----------



## NorthernIllinoisPlumber (Aug 17, 2010)

See if the neighbor mentions MURDER HORNETS at the hearing.


----------



## Titus142 (Apr 15, 2020)

I love the empty hive idea. Let it stew a bit and I bet dollars to donuts she comes in ranting about how she was stung by one of YOUR bees! When you show your hand I think any government official with any sense will tell her to pound sand. 

Also I think there is legal precedent for people being stung by bees as there is literally no way to prove it was one of your bees. But someone can correct me on that if I am mistaken.


----------



## srockey (Feb 8, 2019)

Empty hives is a great idea!


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> ......
> 
> Maybe put the "empty hives" out now and say yea the bees are here, see what shakes loose. they will claim to have been harmed by your bees and in front of someone compitant you can state the hives are empty so it cannot be your bees.
> 
> GG


+1 to empty hives.

Chances are pretty high they will "find the bees" to complain about anyway.
Especially so during the yellow jacket season - oh yes; they will likely decide that the yellow jackets are "your bees".

If they complain, tell the administration (whoever notifies you of the compliant) to *acquire digital evidence from the complainants *- i.e. photo/video of the nuisance "bees" on their property.
Once that is documented and you have been provided with the evidence against you - you can then prove with documentation on hand that the complainants have been dishonest or ignorant (since you have NO bees).

Most likely the digital evidence (IF any) will document wasps, yellow jackets, and/or bumble bees - honest mistake and the administration should be notified of the ignorance of the complainants.
But IF they actually google up some honey bee pictures and submit those as if the real evidence - that would be outright lie to document (even better for you).

In all - you want to demonstrate the lack of complaint substance and not trustworthiness of the complainants (by design or by ignorance).
Best to have it all documented and on file (not just the "he said - she said").

I did the same (asked for the documentation of "my bees" on the irritable neighbor property) - I told them outright to NOT submit any pictures of yellow jackets around their humming bird feeders. Guess they were smart enough too google up the "yellow jackets" - never heard back.


Good luck.

PS: Sturgeon Bay is a nice summer tourist town; we spent entire evening once on the Michigan Street bridge watching it being raised up to let the boats under; kids loved it.


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Jesse said:


> There are zero bears in Sturgeon, less than a handful in the entire county.


I didn't think so. I am no stranger to Door County, at least parts of it.







.


----------



## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

In my opinion, the ordinance is unconstitutional. It is vague, arbitrary and capricious. There are no standards at all. Even if you meet all of the requirements in Section 2, your permit may be denied because a neighbor is less than 100 feet from the hives. A neighbor can effectively veto your husbandry over a fraction of an inch. That's arbitrary. There are no guidelines, rules, regulations pertaining to what are valid objections. That's vague. If your hive is less than 100 feet away a homeowner can object for any reason whatsoever under the ordinance. That's capricious. I would get a lawyer, but if you can't, make sure you object to the hearing and have them spell out what valid objections are and insist that the burden of proof is upon the neighbor. Take the position that the only objections that should be allowed is that you do not meet Section 2 requirements. They should not be allowed to object to anything else. Then ask them what is the burden of proof standard. A preponderance of evidence, clear and convincing evidence? Make a lot of noise. The town does not want to defend this ordinance. I expect you will get your permit. Good luck. J


----------



## Titus142 (Apr 15, 2020)

Fivej said:


> In my opinion, the ordinance is unconstitutional. It is vague, arbitrary and capricious. There are no standards at all. Even if you meet all of the requirements in Section 2, your permit may be denied because a neighbor is less than 100 feet from the hives. A neighbor can effectively veto your husbandry over a fraction of an inch. That's arbitrary. There are no guidelines, rules, regulations pertaining to what are valid objections. That's vague. If your hive is less than 100 feet away a homeowner can object for any reason whatsoever under the ordinance. That's capricious. I would get a lawyer, but if you can't, make sure you object to the hearing and have them spell out what valid objections are and insist that the burden of proof is upon the neighbor. Take the position that the only objections that should be allowed is that you do not meet Section 2 requirements. They should not be allowed to object to anything else. Then ask them what is the burden of proof standard. A preponderance of evidence, clear and convincing evidence? Make a lot of noise. The town does not want to defend this ordinance. I expect you will get your permit. Good luck. J




I think OP mentioned no one had ever contested one of these permits. I think a lot of municipalities put in these ordinances with the issues you outline, and they stay simply because they have never been challenged or enforced. This situation may cause (should cause) some changes to the language. 

In my town we had a neighbor dispute over some livestock (that was there before the complainer moved in) somehow they got a citizens petition on the ballot to outright ban all livestock on any land less than 3 acres. My town has a culture of small farms, horses, goats, that kind of thing, and somehow it passed! 

We got a commission together and when we really looked into it, not only was it not a legal measure in the way it was written, it was completely unenforceable! We got it repealed by a vote which was the easy way, and the majority of the town was for it. It passed mostly because of wording that was confusing and not many people voting on the measure.

The point is, I think you are right, these things need to be challenged sometimes so it can be put right.


----------



## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

I agree Titus. When there was an upsurge in beekeeping, some town somewhere drafted an ordinance and other municipalities just copied it without putting much thought into it. I think that is what happened here, but from the sound of it, his town culture is different from yours so he might have to do a lot of education if he needs to get it repealed. J


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Fivej,
In Maine zoning caselaw would be entirely behind you. A variance request requires a up and down vote on each of the specific criteria to grant or deny the request to conform with the Law Court's instructions. Some towns even follow caselaw.


----------



## Jesse (May 15, 2006)

Background on the city ordinance - Text from a Green Bay Press Gazette article June 2, 2017

STURGEON BAY - There's a growing movement throughout the state to allow beekeeping in cities, and Sturgeon Bay may be following suit.

The push for an ordinance to allow beekeeping within Sturgeon Bay's city limits began after the Door County Beekeepers Club was founded in 2015. With an initial membership of 30 people, the beekeepers club meetings often attract 80 to 100 people.

"There's a lot of interest in beekeeping as a hobby and a way to help the environment," said Gretchen Recupero-Schmelzer, one of the club's founding members. 

For more than a decade bee populations have been dying off to where a third of the nation's honeybee colonies died last year and, from 2012 to 2013, more than half the nation's colonies died. The deaths are attributed to colony collapse disorder, insecticides and Varrao mite infestations, according to an annual survey of beekeepers by the nonprofit Bee Informed Partnership and the Apiary Inspectors of America.


"Backyard beekeeping helps to build up the honeybee populations, which are truly in decline," Recupero-Schmelzer said. "Besides really liking honey, my husband and I are big gardeners, and it's the bees that do the pollination in our garden and around our neighborhood."

Without pollinators, Door County's cherry growers would lose 60 percent of their crop, according to data from the Wisconsin Department of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection. While bees are the dominant pollinators, butterflies and some native fly species also help pollinate crops. Other crop losses due to declining pollinators projected by the department include 75 percent loss for Wisconsin cranberry growers and an 80 percent loss for apple growers. 

"With this decline in the honeybee population, we should be doing more to encourage beekeeping," Recupero-Schmelzer said.

While many people fear bees, honeybees are docile despite their resemblance to more aggressive yellow jackets and hornets that are wasps, she said.

Earlier in the spring, the Door County Beekeepers Club approached the city about adopting an ordinance to allow backyard beekeeping, said Alderman Richard Wiesner, chairman of the Community Protection and Services Committee.

"Currently, the city allows it on a case-by-case basis," Wiesner said.

The club's presentation to the committee about the importance of bees for pollination, the problems with declining bee populations and the measures needed for backyard hives to be safe convinced the committee to look into an ordinance, Wiesner said.

In May, a draft beekeeping ordinance was discussed by the committee and included rules for a permit, the numbers of hives, acceptable locations, safety measures, and consent from adjacent property owners. 

The proposed beekeeping ordinance is on the agenda for the City Council meeting that starts at noon Tuesday.

Since the city has no ordinance regulating beekeeping, Recupero-Schmelzer and the other handful of city beekeepers have conditional use permits for their hobby hives. 

The conditional use permit is expensive, about $300, and involves a public hearing.

An ordinance will make beekeeping a more affordable backyard hobby while also providing regulations, said Mark Lentz, member of the Door County Beekeepers Club. Lentz and other club members looked at the various ordinances adopted by other Wisconsin cities to craft a suitable one for Sturgeon Bay.

The majority of the club's members are raising bees to help sustain the honeybee population, said Lentz, who lives in the town of Gardner. 

While honey is a nice reward for her beekeeping hobby, it's not Cindy Easley's motivation for raising bees.

"I've been doing this for three years, and I don't care if I get honey," said Easley, who lives in Sturgeon Bay but keeps her bees in a rural location on a friend's property.

"It's simply fascinating, watching the bees, how they work together and, in my own small way, I'm helping them to keep doing their jobs," Easley said.

The club's membership includes longtime beekeepers with more than 30 years' experience to many young adults interested in learning about the hobby.

"Together, there is a wealth of knowledge and experience so that we help one another and share resources," Recupero-Schmelzer said. "No one is in this alone."

The county's beekeepers have an ally in their endeavors to sustain their hives. Daniel Ziehli is a state apiary inspector with DATCP and, besides Door County, provides free, voluntary inspections to Wisconsin beekeepers in the southern half of the state.

"When you hear there is an inspector coming to the county, the new beekeepers get a bit worried, but the inspector's goals are to help us become better at what we are doing," Recupero-Schmelzer said.

While colony collapse disorder, pesticides and Varro mites threaten hives and are challenges to understand and control, the problems are not insurmountable, Ziehli said. 

"As I travel the state inspecting, Wisconsin beekeepers do not look at their losses as problems, but as challenges, Ziehli said. "Problems are for those that give up and Wisconsin beekeepers continue to meet the challenges each season and the Door County beekeepers are a good example."


----------



## Jesse (May 15, 2006)

I have reached out to Gretchen and the beekeeping club to ask for their support when the hearing rolls around.


----------



## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Jesse, reaching out to gain support is a good move. Maybe there is an attorney beekeeper in the area? The history of the ordinance supports your side and you should raise it at the hearing. It was enacted to promote beekeeping and to make permitting less expensive. Essentially, you should argue that it is the official policy of the town to encourage beekeeping so the objecting neighbor has to make a clear and convincing or compelling argument to deny the permit. Any chance the ordinance has a preamble? J


----------



## Jesse (May 15, 2006)

No preamble, but I wonder if there is a recording or minutes with dialog given the recency of the meeting?


----------



## Titus142 (Apr 15, 2020)

Sounds like the beeclub has a vested interest in this ordnance, I think reaching out to them is an excellent idea. And getting a bunch of community support never hurts either.


----------



## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

I would simply place a "FOR SALE" sign in the front yard and move to a county with less restrictions, and begin living like a free man.


----------



## jigsaw (Jun 10, 2019)

Tim KS said:


> I would simply place a "FOR SALE" sign in the front yard and move to a county with less restrictions, and begin living like a free man.



Winner


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I would not buy/sell a house over bees.
Now, this is a huge overkill (at a possible monetary loss and more).

Just as well buy a piece of useless crap land for cheap - just to put the bees onto it.
Could be any crap land - bees will not care.


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Have you spoken directly with this neighbor?
Beekeepers tend to have a one-sided view. Bees are intimidating. My neighbor lives about 500 feet from my backyard hives. She’s been stung in her yard twice this year. I get stung occasionally as well when I’m over 100 feet away. Sometimes it’s an errant, nuisance bee that just won’t leave you alone. Other times it’s an accidental encounter. My neighbor has a lot of dark hair. A bee bumps into her….gets into her hair…and the deed is done.

Go talk to the neighbor. If someone is truly allergic or even terrified of bees you are walking a dangerous path if you bring bees into the neighborhood.
I will take a lot of heat from the ‘it’s my right….to heck with the neighbors’ crowd. On the other hand, the other side believes that it is their right to enjoy their yard without a threat from your bees. 
This is the sort of thing that gets new, more draconian ordinances passed. 
If you must keep bees you may want to look for an alternative site.


----------



## Jesse (May 15, 2006)

beemandan said:


> Have you spoken directly with this neighbor?
> Beekeepers tend to have a one-sided view. Bees are intimidating. My neighbor lives about 500 feet from my backyard hives. She’s been stung in her yard twice this year. I get stung occasionally as well when I’m over 100 feet away. Sometimes it’s an errant, nuisance bee that just won’t leave you alone. Other times it’s an accidental encounter. My neighbor has a lot of dark hair. A bee bumps into her….gets into her hair…and the deed is done.
> 
> Go talk to the neighbor. If someone is truly allergic or even terrified of bees you are walking a dangerous path if you bring bees into the neighborhood.
> ...


We all have our own opinion, it's one of four neighbors on the water - we aren't sure which one yet. There are already honey bees in the neighborhood, we've had them regularly on the dandelions in the yard this spring. Different having them next door, but...


----------



## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

username00101 said:


> *Rule #1: Do not apply for a permit. Just put the bees on your property. *


*

This could be bad advice. Beekeeping is regional, and in this case "regional" also applies to the local laws. My state protects a property owner's right to keep bees. A municipality or municipal like organization cannot prohibit beekeeping, although it can regulate how many hives are allowed based on property size and placement. That protection against being prohibited from keeping bees comes with a price: we must register our apiary. The law also empowers the state and county apiarist to seize and remove a nuisance hive, and the law by definition makes any unregistered hive a nuisance hive. The law has a considerate clause in that the apiarist shall give notice before removing a nuisance hive, giving the apiary owner a few precious days to get registered. 

My advice to OP is to research the state laws on beekeeping and be prepared to refer to the state regulations.




and the mulch is piled 8" up the tree trunks

Click to expand...

On a side note, this is unbelievably bad for your trees and the long term arboreal health of a neighborhood. A shallow mulch bed on the ground around the tree is good. Deep mulch against the trunk is very bad. https://extension.psu.edu/mulch-volcanoes-are-erupting-everywhere*


----------



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

In North Carolina state law prohibits cities and counties from enforcing any ordinance or resolution that prohibits people from owning or operating five or fewer bee hives. check your state laws.


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

I think OP is being too sensitive.

The general consensus here seems to clearly be: put out some decoy hives, or just put the hives there.

Don't wait for the hearing to happen, take action now.

If you win the hearing, and it's July, you get to wait a whole year because some neighbor of yours had too much time on their hands.

As I've said before, this is abnormal time. Silly Rules that are not constitutional are meant to be broken.


----------



## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

I think putting hives in the yard before getting the permit is a mistake. It will put you at a disadvantage during the hearing. The ordinance states that the permit is required before keeping bees. Government officials don't take too well to "wise guys". You said there are other people in the area who keep bees already. Don't assume automatically that you will be denied. Use the "save the bees" line as that is carrying a lot of weight with the public these days. Bringing in the Bee Club support is a good idea. Good luck!


----------



## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

My brother in law kept bees in a small village in upstate NY that did not allow beekeeping (ordinance passed by a former mayor who was allergic). He was last house in the village and kept the bees out of sight in his neighbor's woods (so technically the bees were not in the village). Someone tipped of the local big wigs. Police came by and gave him 24 hours to move his hive. I'm not sure what they would have done but he did not want to chance losing his bees so he moved them. 
I don't think you'd want to live in a neighborhood where the police hate you because they were too chicken to do anything with your bees (ego problem) or where your neighbor's are out to sabotage every aspect of your life because you got away with something they feel you shouldn't have. Many sound suggestions have already been given for getting the permit. Additionally find a spot on a friend's property so you can start this year and move them to your house at your convenience once the permit is issues. A flaw in the ordinance is that you are going to want to keep a few nucs as well, so a second site with more flexibility will help you in the long run anyway. Just wait till your neighbor's hear that your nuisance bees also require a certain amount of nukes in the neighborhood to keep the population stable and prevent nuisance swarms.... Good luck!


----------



## Jesse (May 15, 2006)

Here is the response from the neighbor opposing our permit, slightly redacted. (*)near my responses to prepare for the hearing - Jesse

Dear Mr. :



My family is in strong opposition to the proposed Beekeepers Permit Application Submittal for ___. We are opposed to the permit in its’ entirety: hives, bees and location herein referenced as the __ Honey Bee Hive Sites; ___ Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin, 54235.

The location of the proposed hives are directly in-line to my kitchen window, the flight path is across my entire yard, the main water source is in my front yard and my yard itself is frequently used – front to back – by my family and friends. More to the point, both myself – _ – and my daughter – _ are highly allergic to stings and have both been treated in the past, as emergencies, stemming from stings. I do not see how this permit can be presumed to be safe for our family or friends. Additionally, I have a elderly miniature dachshund who is ‘inquisitive’ and would not survive multiple stings should they occur. Lastly, we are elderly – in our 70’s’ – and frankly, do not need to “fear” being out in our yard during the few warm months that we are able to in Door County.

Both my neighbor to the east, and I have numerous plantings and flowering shrubs (the prior owner was a “Door County Master Gardner”) – in fact, bee attractants. I also maintain, on a regular basis, my yard and trees which require powered tools on and around the lot line. This ‘noise’ aggravation I suspect the bees can do without.


Finally, from an aesthetic perspective, until last fall, there was a natural lot barrier between our adjoining properties composed of mature trees, woodland scrub growth and understory plantings; by this spring that area has been transformed into multiple brush piles, dirt piles, multiple stumps, fencing (chicken wire) and rotting compost, surrounded by pallets standing on end. This is the area in which the proposed hives are to be located . . . we truly cannot imagine what is coming next. We moved to _to be in a urban setting not a rural setting. We just do not find merit or value in this permit application.

*(We removed dead ash trees threatening our storage building, and various invasives - japanese knotweed, common buckthorn, honeysuckle, garlic mustard - and have since replanted some river birch trees. Also got a puppy and put up some temporary fencing, permanent dog ear is going up in a week) - Jesse

We would appreciate a definitive “Denial” of the request for a Beekeepers Permit Application Submittal for Jesse.



I have included supplemental information, from various subject matter sources, that were used in determining our response to the __request; they are informational and serve to support my families concerns regards this matter. I include them as addendums, recognizing that they are published opinions that basically support our request for ‘denial of permit.’

Thank you for your consideration,
--- 

ADDENDUMS:

(Sourced from Mayo Clinic, Wikipedia, Urban Beekeeping (quora.com), The conversation.com/blog, Honey&Beekeeping.com, theatlantic.com. telegraph.co.uk, npr.org, beeculture.com, honeybeesonline.com, dummies.com(beekeeping), beesource.com/forum, beemaster.com/forum, kykopestprevention.com).



Flight Path:
The bees’ flight path will extend in a straight line out of the hive entrance, so don’t point the hives toward the neighbor’s yard, street traffic, your back door, or your doghouse unless you have a hedge or fence to force the bees high into the air.

* There will be a solid fence, neighbor's house is 250' from proposed site - Jesse

Water Requirements:

It’s also important to provide bees with water on your property so they don’t make a neighbor’s pool, dog bowl, air conditioner, birdbath, koi pond, or other water source their own. Keep a water source within fifteen feet of your hive(s) year-round, so that they orient on the source you have provided for them before any scout bees find water sources in a neighbor’s yard. Honey bees need to collect water, particularly in early spring and during the heat of summer. Bees can be fussy about where they collect water. They seem to love small ponds and creeks. The bees may also drink from a dog's drinking bowl, or a neighbor's bird bath or swimming pool. To deter bees from going to a neighbor's yard for a drink, the suburban beekeeper should provide water for their bees.

* There will be a bird bath right next to the hives - Jesse

Bee Stings:

Bee stings produce pain and swelling in the localized area of the sting. The biggest threat that a beehive in the backyard poses is stings by not just one but multiple bees. In addition to pain and swelling, bee stings result in other symptoms like nausea and vomiting, fainting and closing of the throat in people who are allergic. In the case of a backyard beehive, multiple stings have the potential to kill someone who is extremely allergic to bees. A severe allergic reaction (anaphylaxis) to bee stings is potentially life-threatening and requires emergency treatment. A small percentage of people who are stung by a bee or other insect quickly develop anaphylaxis. Signs and symptoms of anaphylaxis include:

Skin reactions, including hives and itching and flushed or pale skin
Difficulty breathing
Swelling of the throat and tongue
A weak, rapid pulse
Nausea, vomiting or diarrhea
Dizziness or fainting
Loss of consciousness

Risk Factors:

You're at increased risk of bee stings if:

You live in an area where bees are especially active or with beehives nearby
Your work or hobbies require spending time outside

You're more likely to have an allergic reaction to bee stings if you've had an allergic reaction to a bee sting in the past, even if it was minor.

Adults tend to have more-severe reactions than children do and are more likely to die of anaphylaxis than children are.

Most of the time dogs get stung on their faces from investigating a stinging insect too closely. A sting on your dog’s sensitive nose is particularly painful. Some dogs may even get stung on the tongue or inside their mouth or throat if they try to bite or catch an insect. These stings can be dangerous., The subsequent swelling can close your dog’s throat and block his airway. The dog must be taken to a vet (Note: there are no vets open in Sturgeon bay on weekends).

Bee Aggression:

Bees sting as a form of aggression when they feel threatened or if they feel there is a threat to their hive or colony. They also tend to be more aggressive in hot climates, if the hive is located in a shady area or if there is a lack of flowering plants. Make sure that children and visitors are also aware of the hive’s location, and make they stay away to prevent encounters with aggressive bees.

Beekeeping in an urban or suburban area is possible but also dangerous if you do not understand how to keep your bees from becoming a nuisance, and potentially stinging your neighbors. Proper tools and elements of beekeeping include tall fences, to divert bee flight paths over people’s heads (*); a source of clean, fresh water so bees don’t go elsewhere to hydrate; and a bait hive, which prevents bees from swarming by giving them a place to reside outside their normal hive.

There are conditions which can make even a normally mild tempered hive a bit testy. The sudden stoppage of a honey flow will sometimes have that effect. Or if the hive is under pressure from robber bees. Or if you've just collected the rent (harvested honey).

And there's always the off chance that someone in the yard will get in the bees' flight path and end up with a bee trapped in their clothing or in their hair, which can lead to an accidental sting.

It's also possible for bees to be attracted to the scent of a perfume, or to brightly colored clothing. Again, though, that will cause some people to panic and start swatting at the bee, which can also lead to an accidental sting.

You might consider erecting a solid fence (*) around your bees. If it's at least 6 feet tall, that will force the flight path of the bees above the heads of anyone close by. That will also put the bees out-of-sight, and hopefully, out-of-mind of anyone who might be nervous about them. A fence around your hives or yard will keep any inquisitive neighbors from accidently getting too close to your hives or walking into the bees’ flight path. Another way to keep bees and people out of one another’s way is to use a flight barrier: tall bushes, the side of your garage or shed, or anything else that forces the bees to immediately fly up into the air and away from people.

Loud lawnmowers and weed eaters in close proximity to the hive are also known to aggravate bees, causing them to swarm and sting. If you should encounter a hive of aggressive bees, seek shelter indoors immediately.

Bee Defensiveness:
Prevent swarming : Keeping bees in a residential area means that some aspects of beekeeping are of greater concern than if you kept bees in the rural, undeveloped, countryside. For example, while all beekeepers try to prevent swarming, this practice is critical in populated communities. In a typical neighborhood, if your bees swarm, they will likely bivouac in a neighbor’s yard. Unlike most beekeepers’ reaction to seeing a swarm, most non-beekeepers are horrified to see tens of thousands of bees bounce through the sky until they congregate to form a big buzzing ball in someone’s backyard! Therefore, it is the suburban beekeeper’s responsibly to do everything in his/her power to prevent swarms.

The defensiveness of bees is greatly influenced by environmental conditions. The same bees that are gentle on one day can become very defensive on another day. The best conditions to work with the bees are when:

· Most of the field bees are out in the field collecting nectar

· When there is a nectar flow from flowering plants

· When the colony is not under stress from predators, such as wasps.

· When colonies are in direct sunlight

· When the temperature is not very hot (95 degrees F or higher)

· When neighbors are not having a lawn party or mowing their yard

Bee Disease and Cleanliness:

Langstroth's first Bee-keeper's Axiom is a good one to remember: "Bees gorged with honey are not inclined to sting." This means that the bees will tend to be gentle when there is a nectar flow, when they swarm and following a light smoking. Angry bees are sometimes attracted to lights at night. 

Beekeeping is often promoted as a way to conserve pollinators but managing hives does nothing to protect our wild pollinators. It’s the equivalent of farming chickens to save wild birds. High numbers of honeybees can actively harm wild bee populations, because they compete directly for nectar and pollen. That’s not a problem when flowers are plentiful, but in environments where resources are limited, wild bees can be outcompeted. A lack of flowers is one of the main factors behind the decline in bee populations. Initiatives such as urban beekeeping put more pressure on wild bees and worsen the decline. When honeybees occur in high numbers, they can push wild bees out of an area, making it harder for wild plants to reproduce. Honeybees are not a substitute for wild pollinators, so we must protect the entire bee community to achieve good quality pollination.

Honeybee hives are regularly traded locally and internationally, allowing the rapid spread of diseases and parasites, such as deformed wing virus and Varroa mite. These pathogens can spill over from managed hives into wild bumblebee populations and spread between wild bee species when they visit the same flower.

It is important for suburban beekeepers to keep their yards clean and properly dispose of all beekeeping waste and hive by-products. Burr comb, broken equipment, and old wax should be sealed in garbage bags (to prevent robbing) and placed in garbage bins. Hive feeders and syrup containers should be rinsed out so any sugar residue is washed away. It is important that your apiary is not attracting any pests like wasps, rodents, or skunks. By keeping your bee area clean, you will ensure that no unwanted critters move in.

* Please provide any helpful comments or links to information to refute these claims. Thank you!
- Jesse


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Well you are doing your homework. What is the track record of approval or denial in the past? I would look for an approval of a similar application. The past record is your best clue of the approach to take at the hearing.


----------



## Einar5107 (Apr 23, 2017)

Message your local Bee Club. See if someone there will attend the ordinance meeting to speak for you. I had a similar situation several years ago. Our local Bee Club person spoke about the importance of honeybees and answered questions. He did a great job and my variance was granted. Most people are very ignorant of honeybees and get confused about them and honest and wasps. Many do not think they gather nectar but fly around finding people to run suicide missions on. Having a competent person answer questions is the best route.


----------



## Trin (May 6, 2020)

Sorry you are in this mess.

I moved out of the city a long time ago. Didn't want to raise kids in that environment. 

So as a form of relief, I will relate a few stories. I knew a guy who lived in a gated community in New Jersey. He was thinking of moving after he found out that he had to get and pay for a permit each time he wanted to trim hedges.
He had to state on the permit the species of plant and how much he was going to cut off.

I also had a friend who bought several 100 acres in Wyoming. He would ride his Harley out there and camp out. So he decided to build a pole building so he had a better place to stay. Went to the township office and asked about a building permit. The lady responded; "We generally use boards and nails and such. Metal roofs last a long time...." He laughed and asked about a permit again and she says; "It's a free country, you can do whatever you want as far as a building, if it falls on your head and kills you, we might dig a hole for you" This guy is an electrician, and once the word got out, he made lots of friends who would offer to put him up and feed him and barter work. He told me "It's really awesome"

Good luck with the permit. Really.


----------



## Plannerwgp (May 18, 2019)

I have responded to a few of these threads. I am a urban planner and zoning expert. First do not do anything that breaks the law. If I were making a presentation, I would take their code and place it in a board and then place your response to each section. Some communities do this on power point but I am not familiar with your community. Forget your neighbor as there is no way to properly respond. Stick to the code and demonstrate you have complied with each provision. They will have no practical defense or compliance. Your answer to each section should be brief.


----------



## arthurw (May 10, 2011)

Put your hives out with a large sign reading “Murder Hornets Test Hives.” That should get the neighbor’s attention.


----------



## bkochis (Nov 10, 2019)

Jesse said:


> Hi All,
> 
> So this is my request to the Beesource hivemind: Do you have advice for contesting these arguments against beekeeping? Can you point me to any specific articles, popular or scientific that would help us in our fight to keep bees?
> Jesse & Samantha


Not sure about Michigan, but have you looked at the State Dept. of Agriculture website? Here in NJ, once a hive is registered it comes under Agriculture rules, and unless specifically stated in HOA or Township rules, your neighbor can get stuffed! Just remember who was complaining if you ever sell honey!


----------



## bkochis (Nov 10, 2019)

Jesse said:


> Here is the response from the neighbor opposing our permit, slightly redacted. (*)near my responses to prepare for the hearing - Jesse
> 
> Both my neighbor to the east, and I have numerous plantings and flowering shrubs (the prior owner was a *“Door County Master Gardner”)* – in fact, bee attractants. I also maintain, on a regular basis, my yard and trees which require powered tools on and around the lot line. This ‘noise’ aggravation I suspect the bees can do without.


 *So your allergic, yet plant attractants?? Doctor's note requirement*



Jesse said:


> Finally, from an aesthetic perspective, until last fall, there was a natural lot barrier between our adjoining properties composed of mature trees, woodland scrub growth and understory plantings; by this spring that area has been transformed into multiple brush piles, dirt piles, multiple stumps, fencing (chicken wire) and rotting compost, surrounded by pallets standing on end. This is the area in which the proposed hives are to be located . . . we truly cannot imagine what is coming next. We moved to _to be in a urban setting not a rural setting. We just do not find merit or value in this permit application.- Jesse


*Dude, you ****** with his pristine view and he has a bone to pick about it.*


----------



## cg03026 (Jul 25, 2014)

So sad for you... and your neighbor. Many of the clauses and phrases are so vague as to be unenforceable. However, whether you get the permit or not, this neighbor is likely to make your life miserable for years. The chance of converting them seems minimal. Do you want this fight in your life?


----------



## nobull56 (Mar 30, 2013)

Jesse, good luck & take everything we post with a LARGE GRAIN OF SALT! 
I get 'Flamed' for most of my posts here om Bee Source, so I don't post much. The ordinance you posted 34.14(1)(a) talks about having the permit before placing a hive body. So think hard before you put up an empty, even if it is bee tight. 

We live on ten acres & our county changed the zoning after we lived here over ten years. Long story short, five years of fighting ($35,000 in Attorney fees), leading two Referendums, one Initiative, and winning three Injunctive Court Orders. The county did what they wanted. They leave our agg usage alone, BUT every permit we aply for has to go all the way to the BOS (Board of Supperviser). Animal Control always cites our dogs (even on our own property) and will not respond to our 'Animal at Large' complants, even when naiborhood dogs molest our stock. So do your own math & most deffently use your local bee club! We're thirty years here now & only have one more 'Board of Supperviser' left to contunue the 'War'. We will out live him!

To broaden your options, your bee club might have other locations that you can start your bee adventure at! They will also give you great insight & help in doing beekeeping correctly. Also, the neighbor that is objecting is over 70, how much longer can they complain? 

An additional warning we also started with two hives, somehow they magically turned into over one hundred. We do 90% of the swarm pick-up for the county agg department; help over 50 other beekeepers with their hives and hold bee education classes, both here and in local school classrooms. 

Once again Good Luck!


----------



## Spaniel3 (Sep 2, 2018)

I had to have approval from the town board to have bees in my suburban yard which included a public presentation of my plan to the board. I too have a neighbor that is opposed to bees on my property. My advice would be to factually address the concerns of the neighbor and provide as much education about beekeeping as possible. People associate beekeeping with getting stung. The more information you can provide about the good of beekeeping, the better. For me, "security" was one element. There was concern that someone would see the hives and want to cause mischief by knocking them over. This of course would not be good for the culprit but the solution was to put up a 6 foot solid fence to obscure the view from the road - Out of site - out of mind. Provide the fact that bees fly up, not out when they leave the hive (6 feet up for every 6 feet out) so this alleviates concern about getting stung 50 feet away from the hive. Happy bees are nice bees so document what you will do to keep them happy and healthy - inspect the hive regularly, provide water source to keep them out of neighbors swimming pool.
Many states or communities have guidelines for keeping bees. Reach to them for information. If they don't have guidelines, check neighboring states and use what you find as a reference. Do you belong to a local beekeeper club? If so, ask others there for advice. Good luck


----------



## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

:thumbsup:


jonsl said:


> I think putting hives in the yard before getting the permit is a mistake. It will put you at a disadvantage during the hearing. The ordinance states that the permit is required before keeping bees. Government officials don't take too well to "wise guys". You said there are other people in the area who keep bees already. Don't assume automatically that you will be denied. Use the "save the bees" line as that is carrying a lot of weight with the public these days. Bringing in the Bee Club support is a good idea. Good luck!


----------



## Titus142 (Apr 15, 2020)

I think the root cause here is the work you have done in the backyard and the neighbors don't like the changes. They have a chip on their shoulder now and will try to get you at every turn. I don't think this is about the bees specifically, I think this is about retribution for you "ruining" their view.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

so he states they have been stung and treated in the past, this of course is pre your bees being there. so no matter they are in "danger" now
somehow point out "even if " you do not have bees the plantings they have and just being outside can put one in a position to be stung , by yellow Jackets , wasps etc.
end of the day ,, next time they get stung they will blame you, is that ok?
get some super nice bees, and follow the rules.

any way you can locate them "out in the country" I have stopped and knocked on doors where the owner has a larger farm, no horses, mostly crops farms. 10 knocks got me 3 yeses. Horse folks think the bees will bother the horses, beekeeper horse people are few enough that the ask is not worth the time IMO.
Then you have the bees and the honey, you do have a bit of a fuel investment, but out of the fight with the neighbors.
At 70 years old , temporary offsite, should not last forever.....

GG


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Plannerwgp,
Your take on 
"(c)

If the application complies with the requirements of subsection (2), the department shall send by regular mail information regarding beekeeping and the proposal to adjacent properties. This information shall include behavior of bees and location of hives on the subject property. It shall be provided _to the owners and tenants of all adjacent property within 100 feet of the location of hives on the property_ and shall advise of the ability to object in writing to the proposed beekeeping.

If the hives are to be located 250 ft from the line why were the neighbors notified. Clearly it is the hive location not the property line that is specified. Depending upon local custom/case law do the neighbors outside of the 100 ft zone even have standing (For lack of a better term)?

I do not believe the board is bound to consider the position of the neighbor outside of the 100 ft zone. If not the ordinance intent to limit objections outside of 100 ft, then what is the purpose of including the specific limitation?


----------



## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

See post # 35 of this thread.


----------



## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

Gray Goose said:


> Check to see what ordinances apply.
> Comply by the ones on the books, or get a variance.
> 
> What the neighbor "wants" is not in the rule book.
> ...


GREAT IDEAS!:thumbsup:


----------



## Grounded (May 11, 2017)

Jesse said:


> City ordinance
> 
> 34.14 - Keeping of bees.
> 
> ...


Jesse; going back to section one (1) subsection (c) and (d).
What day did you submit notice to your adjoining neighbors about keeping bees? And did they file an objections within 30 days of the day you gave them notice?
If their objection was not within the 30 days you have complete approval to have your bees according to the way the ordinance is written. You neighbor has forfeited the right to object to you keeping bees if they have not objected within the 30 days following the day you gave them notice of keeping bees.


----------



## Jesse (May 15, 2006)

Saltybee said:


> Plannerwgp,
> Your take on
> "(c)
> 
> ...


Their lot line is 40 ft, the house is 250 ft.


----------



## Jesse (May 15, 2006)

Grounded said:


> Jesse; going back to section one (1) subsection (c) and (d).
> What day did you submit notice to your adjoining neighbors about keeping bees? And did they file an objections within 30 days of the day you gave them notice?
> If their objection was not within the 30 days you have complete approval to have your bees according to the way the ordinance is written. You neighbor has forfeited the right to object to you keeping bees if they have not objected within the 30 days following the day you gave them notice of keeping bees.


Yes, it was within the 30 days (unfortunately) - thanks for the suggestion though.


----------



## Jesse (May 15, 2006)

Grounded said:


> Jesse; going back to section one (1) subsection (c) and (d).
> What day did you submit notice to your adjoining neighbors about keeping bees? And did they file an objections within 30 days of the day you gave them notice?
> If their objection was not within the 30 days you have complete approval to have your bees according to the way the ordinance is written. You neighbor has forfeited the right to object to you keeping bees if they have not objected within the 30 days following the day you gave them notice of keeping bees.


Yes, it was within the 30 days (unfortunately) - thanks for the suggestion though.


----------



## Trin (May 6, 2020)

OK, I will confess. I am of Irish heritage. So I blame genetics. 

I try to find humor in situations like yours, if all else fails I might invent some. 

I have been around bees for 3-4 years and have done many inspections. Haven't bee stung by my bees yet. Don't know why except I move slow, remain calm, and try not to kill any. If I do, I apologize and smoke them a little to cover alarm pheromones. Having gentle bees is really nice. They might be something to look for and something to mention should you get a permit. 

As a kid I used to go over to a friends house and shoot some hoops. This guy was a trouble maker by nature. (see the deflection) His parakeet had died so he got the bright idea to trap some sparrows and keep them in the old bird cage. His next door neighbor was probably in her 80's and would come out and yell at us saying things like "you don't live there so get the *&^# out!" We honestly never said much back, but just ignored her. So one day after she wouldn't let up, I got the bright idea to take some sparrows and feed them into her house through the mail slot on her front door. We were laughing so hard we couldn't play basketball anymore because we kept seeing her pass by the windows in slow motion with a broom raised up. We are lucky she didn't have a coronary chasing those sparrows. At least she wasn't yelling at us. 

I think we "sparrowed" her house once, 2 years in a row. 

Nowadays I think of stuff when confronted by people like your neighbors, but am wise enough not to pursue.


----------



## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

Trin said:


> OK, I will confess. I am of Irish heritage. So I blame genetics.
> 
> I try to find humor in situations like yours, if all else fails I might invent some.
> 
> ...


Trin - that's hilarious. Thanks for the story!


----------



## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

Kids, don't do this at home. I do not condone the capture and torture of birds.


----------



## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

username00101 said:


> I think OP is being too sensitive.
> 
> The general consensus here seems to clearly be: put out some decoy hives, or just put the hives there.
> 
> ...


With respect, it is not hard to predict an unwanted end result with this advice. I agree with BeemanDan. My advice: Do NOT make yourself a target by being a scofflaw. JMO


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

You do not have to lose a year. You may have to lose the convenience of your yard.

Back to making your case. Can you film bees currently in your yard ?


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

> I think we "sparrowed" her house once, 2 years in a row.


That is hilarious. Far surpasses any of the stupid teenage pranks I pulled off.


----------



## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

Though it may be "satisfying" to escalate, doing so will probably cause the other side to escalate as well. Seek to resolve this through information and courtesy, and I think you will find a way through.


----------



## iahawk (May 19, 2009)

Just a thought. While you would love to have the bees directly on your property, Sturgeon Bay is not a huge city. As secretary of our bee club, we receive requests all the time for people in the surrounding rural area wanting bee hives on their property for pollination. So you could start this year, you might check with a local club to see if anyone knows of someone not far wanting to have bees on their property. A short drive might be worth it.


----------



## Beepah (Apr 13, 2018)

bushpilot said:


> Though it may be "satisfying" to escalate, doing so will probably cause the other side to escalate as well.


Alas, yes, this is the likely path. If I recall correctly, the state of New Jersey almost had a set of pretty ridiculous state-level beekeeping regulations due one beekeeper violating local laws and one crabby neighbor. The crabby neighbor got to the legislature first and the New Jersey Department of Agriculture almost passed a hilariously one-sided (anti-hobbyist) law. I think there was a requirement for all beekeepers to attended a class every so many years, and I think too it had language requiring a beekeeper to check the queen to be sure she wasn't going to swarm. Something like that. I'm sure beekeepers from NJ can recount those dark days better than me.


----------



## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

Beepah said:


> Alas, yes, this is the likely path. If I recall correctly, the state of New Jersey almost had a set of pretty ridiculous state-level beekeeping regulations due one beekeeper violating local laws and one crabby neighbor. The crabby neighbor got to the legislature first and the New Jersey Department of Agriculture almost passed a hilariously one-sided (anti-hobbyist) law. I think there was a requirement for all beekeepers to attended a class every so many years, and I think too it had language requiring a beekeeper to check the queen to be sure she wasn't going to swarm. Something like that. I'm sure beekeepers from NJ can recount those dark days better than me.


Yes, it was almost a disaster for beekeepers. You had to notify every neighbor within 200 ft of your bees, either in person or by registered mail. If any neighbor objected then you had to go to a hearing. In my opinion this also could potentially open you to law suits from stung neighbors. Beekeepers had to take a training class every 5 years. You could only keep 2 hives plus 1 temporary nuc regardless of the size of your land. Bees could not be kept on any property that was zoned as commercial. There were probably other restrictions that I can't recall.

Fortunately there was enough of an uproar to cause this to be squashed. I understand that the person who had been pushing these regulations ended up leaving the state. On the other hand the beekeeper who started the issue was out of control as well. I think I heard that he had like 20 hives on a 1/4 acre home lot.


----------



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

jonsl said:


> Yes, it was almost a disaster for beekeepers. You had to notify every neighbor within 200 ft of your bees, either in person or by registered mail. If any neighbor objected then you had to go to a hearing. In my opinion this also could potentially open you to law suits from stung neighbors. Beekeepers had to take a training class every 5 years. You could only keep 2 hives plus 1 temporary nuc regardless of the size of your land. Bees could not be kept on any property that was zoned as commercial. There were probably other restrictions that I can't recall.
> 
> Fortunately there was enough of an uproar to cause this to be squashed. I understand that the person who had been pushing these regulations ended up leaving the state. On the other hand the beekeeper who started the issue was out of control as well. I think I heard that he had like 20 hives on a 1/4 acre home lot.


Regulations be ****ed, there's no way I would comply with anything of that nature.


----------



## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

username00101 said:


> Regulations be ****ed, there's no way I would comply with anything of that nature.


Probably wouldn't work out to your benefit as the regulations stated that the state could come and remove any hives they deemed as a nuisance. Also, with regards to a neighbor fighting you on this it might become quite expensive from a legal standpoint.


----------



## JConnolly (Feb 21, 2015)

Trin said:


> As a kid I used to go over to a friends house and shoot some hoops. This guy was a trouble maker by nature. (see the deflection) His parakeet had died so he got the bright idea to trap some sparrows and keep them in the old bird cage. His next door neighbor was probably in her 80's and would come out and yell at us saying things like "you don't live there so get the *&^# out!" We honestly never said much back, but just ignored her. So one day after she wouldn't let up, I got the bright idea to take some sparrows and feed them into her house through the mail slot on her front door. We were laughing so hard we couldn't play basketball anymore because we kept seeing her pass by the windows in slow motion with a broom raised up. We are lucky she didn't have a coronary chasing those sparrows. At least she wasn't yelling at us.
> 
> I think we "sparrowed" her house once, 2 years in a row.
> 
> Nowadays I think of stuff when confronted by people like your neighbors, but am wise enough not to pursue.


:lpf:

OT, I have proudly regaled the tale many times over the years about being responsible for loads of carp swimming in the sumps of the High School swamp coolers on multiple occasions, but this is so far beyond that that I feel like now I'm on the level of bragging to Noah about the Jonestown flood.


----------



## Jesse (May 15, 2006)

The public hearing was today. 

We have erected a 6' dog ear fence along most of our 320' back property boundary (just my wife and I - hand mixing quikcrete was a lot easier in my 20's). We provided pictures to the Community Protection and Services Committee of our garden and prospective hive site; complete with the several bird baths and list of 100+ native flowering tree, shrubs, and forbs on the property - along with cited sources from Cornell and Rutgers about the foraging habits and relative gentleness of honeybees and recent links to urban beekeeping successes in nearby and larger cities. 

I made my statement, followed by the concerned neighbor, who decided to withdraw his objection to the permit after "they installed the fence and are going to point the hives parallel to our property boundary rather than perpendicular." The committee approved the permit - only the fourth such permit since 2015, the first contested, and the first within the heart of the city. So yipee! 

Thanks to everyone's advice, funny stories, and support. 

Now we have to find some bees!


----------



## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Good for you!
Sounds like the neighbor may have gotten himself educated a bit.


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

> Now we have to find some bees!


Jesse, that is fantastic! Set some swarm traps. It is still swarm season where you live. Reach out to some of the local beekeeping associations and ask about available bees. Most sucsessful beekeepers have an extra nuc or two, even if they do not advertise them for sale.


----------



## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Since the problem has been 'solved' I won't go on about the non-sensical nature of the ordinance and the neighbor's objection...but, I am still curious as to *why* (referencing the creation of the ordnance) someone wanting to keep bees would go to the trouble of creating such an ordinance specifically to 'allow' the keeping of bees, when no beekeeping ordinance existed previously. It would seem to me that, lacking an ordinance pertaining to beekeeping, then the activity would have automatically been permitted. It seems like shooting yourself in the foot.

"Hey, I want to keep bees. Would you kind folk please draft up a bunch of laws to restrict and regulate my beekeeping?"

:s


----------



## Jesse (May 15, 2006)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> Since the problem has been 'solved' I won't go on about the non-sensical nature of the ordinance and the neighbor's objection...but, I am still curious as to *why* (referencing the creation of the ordnance) someone wanting to keep bees would go to the trouble of creating such an ordinance specifically to 'allow' the keeping of bees, when no beekeeping ordinance existed previously. It would seem to me that, lacking an ordinance pertaining to beekeeping, then the activity would have automatically been permitted. It seems like shooting yourself in the foot.
> 
> "Hey, I want to keep bees. Would you kind folk please draft up a bunch of laws to restrict and regulate my beekeeping?"
> 
> :s


I agree, the exception being that keeping bees was previously part of a conditional use permit that required a $300 application fee and took several months for approval. 

Both the former process and current ordinance, as previously pointed out, have some very arbitrary and non-science based or common sense requirements. If there is an ordinance, and I'm not saying there should be one, it should make sense and if all parameters are met, you should be able to keep bees. I don't understand getting neighbors worked up about something they don't understand. 

The general spirit of this ordinance was to make it easier (than under the conditional use permit) to keep bees because of the importance of honeybees. The danger here was the Committee tasked with the hearing was not part of actually drafting or passing the ordinance and they themselves didn't know the history or anything about bees. I provided a lot of information and even then, without the neighbor withdrawing his objection, the Committee Chair stated "I didn't know which way this one was going to go."

Not good for future applicants with neighbors unfamiliar with honeybees.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Jesse said:


> ....... and are going to *point the hives parallel to our property boundary rather than perpendicular*."


LOL.
I don't know how one can even argue with these people.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> Since the problem has been 'solved' I won't go on about the non-sensical nature of the ordinance and the neighbor's objection...but, I am still curious as to* *why* (referencing the creation of the ordnance) someone wanting to keep bees would go to the trouble of creating such an ordinance specifically to 'allow' the keeping of bees, when no beekeeping ordinance existed previously.* It would seem to me that, lacking an ordinance pertaining to beekeeping, then the activity would have automatically been permitted. It seems like shooting yourself in the foot.
> 
> "Hey, I want to keep bees. Would you kind folk please draft up a bunch of laws to restrict and regulate my beekeeping?"
> 
> :s


Because without such ordinance there WILL be cases where the beekeeping will be argued both ways - over and over; and over again.
Once it is explicitly allowed, than it is allowed.
Going forward it is harder to explicitly prohibit the beekeeping after it was already explicitly allowed, as a precedent.


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Well played Jesse. Chalk one up for civility.


----------



## Titus142 (Apr 15, 2020)

GregV said:


> LOL.
> I don't know how one can even argue with these people.


Right because we all know bees only fly in one direction and that direction is ALWAYS the direction the hive is facing


----------



## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

Congratulations Jesse! Remember to give that neighbor some honey when you are able. To use 2 cliches: good fences make good neighbors but also you catch more flies with honey than with lemon.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jonsl said:


> Congratulations Jesse! Remember to give that neighbor some honey when you are able. To use 2 cliches: good fences make good neighbors but also you catch more flies with honey than with lemon.


I would not give them any honey.
They could just take it as rubbing in their "loss" and get inflamed again, after all that has been done and said.
Do nothing, keep the present balance, and move on.
The good fence has been installed.


----------



## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

If you offer them some honey, you may win them over. OTOH, if they slam the door in your face, you will know any more effort would be a waste of your time.

Alex


----------



## Jesse (May 15, 2006)

GregV said:


> LOL.
> I don't know how one can even argue with these people.


I wasn't going to argue over whether or not honeybees have the navigational capacity to turn 90 degrees...


----------



## Jesse (May 15, 2006)

jonsl said:


> Congratulations Jesse! Remember to give that neighbor some honey when you are able. To use 2 cliches: good fences make good neighbors but also you catch more flies with honey than with lemon.


Cliches exist for a reason, I haven't heard that one with lemon


----------



## Jesse (May 15, 2006)

AHudd

"If you offer them some honey, you may win them over. OTOH, if they slam the door in your face, you will know any more effort would be a waste of your time."

I like this way of thinking. My wife and I are thinking of writing a letter to them. I actually spoke with the gentleman after the hearing. He grew up on a farm and "didn't want to ruin our lives." I read it as they had some real fear, along with some frustration with all of our restoration projects, although he said, "you're doing good work." I think he really wanted a fence for more privacy since we had removed so many invasives and dead ash trees between our yards.


----------



## Titus142 (Apr 15, 2020)

Coulda just talked to you about a fence. But nope, people gotta go straight to causing an issue. We had one person in town who decided they didn't like their neighbors pigs (the pigs have been there for decades) and got a citizens petition passed (by dubious means) to basically ban all livestock in town (including bees). NH is a right to farm state and my town is very rural, lots of people have animals. Anyway, we got it repealed with one of the highest turnouts the town has ever seen.

Point is, people just go to the extreme instead of trying to work something out with the neighbors. A simple conversation could have fixed all of this and you would have had a friendly neighbor instead of someone you will always be on eggshells about. 

This has been a great discussion thread though!


----------



## Jesse (May 15, 2006)

Titus142 said:


> Coulda just talked to you about a fence. But nope, people gotta go straight to causing an issue. We had one person in town who decided they didn't like their neighbors pigs (the pigs have been there for decades) and got a citizens petition passed (by dubious means) to basically ban all livestock in town (including bees). NH is a right to farm state and my town is very rural, lots of people have animals. Anyway, we got it repealed with one of the highest turnouts the town has ever seen.
> 
> Point is, people just go to the extreme instead of trying to work something out with the neighbors. A simple conversation could have fixed all of this and you would have had a friendly neighbor instead of someone you will always be on eggshells about.
> 
> This has been a great discussion thread though!


I completely agree, he and one other neighbor abutting our backyard were the only ones we didn't speak with prior to applying for the permit. We never met either, one reason being the 50' of woods between our lots - it seemed like an awkward thing to walk through and say "Hi" on someone else's property - the only time he was back there was when he was mowing. Live and learn.


----------



## NorthernIllinoisPlumber (Aug 17, 2010)

I would refrain from giving them honey either.


----------



## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

I would suggest going to see them soon, and thank them for their concern for the neighborhood. And then give them honey when you have it.


----------



## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

bushpilot said:


> I would suggest going to see them soon, and thank them for their concern for the neighborhood. And then give them honey when you have it.


I agree. I think part of the reason we're in such a partisan pickle is that not enough people are talking to their neighbors..and honey goes a long way to smoothing things over.


----------



## pjigar (Sep 13, 2016)

First, empty hives are not allowed per the city rules. Don't do it since it would work against you in at the hearing.
Second, the section (o) is the one everyone tries to fight on so yes, it becomes a subjective fight. Be calm and counter with solutions and not allegations/threats. Good luck.


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I disagree. The best way to convince someone of your wisdom is to punch them in the nose.


----------



## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

Saltybee said:


> I disagree. The best way to convince someone of your wisdom is to punch them in the nose.


No, that's the best way to get arrested for assault and battery.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jonsl said:


> I agree. I think part of the reason we're in such a partisan pickle is that not enough people are talking to their neighbors..and *honey goes a long way to smoothing things over.*


Correct answer is - "it depends".
Both of my neighbors took honey from me and smiled.
Then one of them reported to the authorities on my bees being "non-compliant" - shown to be not true.


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

jonsl said:


> No, that's the best way to get arrested for assault and battery.


Sarcasm that got away from me. Thought I hit "cancel".


----------



## brudosd (Jun 10, 2020)

I kept bees when we lived in town. First time the hives were painted white and a neighbor complained so I removed the bees, the second time the hives were painted dark green, no complaints. You might also 
try placing the hive in the attic space over the garage, a neat hole going to the outside, bees are flying up and away, predators are foiled, neighbors can't vandalize them, they are protected from the elements and the cold winter nights. Also if the neighbors don't want bees in their yard then they shouldn't grow flowers. If they don't have any flowers then they won't have any bees. Good luck.


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

brudosd said:


> I kept bees when we lived in town. First time the hives were painted white and a neighbor complained so I removed the bees, the second time the hives were painted dark green, no complaints. *You might also
> try placing the hive in the attic space over the garage, *a neat hole going to the outside, bees are flying up and away, predators are foiled, neighbors can't vandalize them, they are protected from the elements and the cold winter nights. Also if the neighbors don't want bees in their yard then they shouldn't grow flowers. If they don't have any flowers then they won't have any bees. Good luck.


Similar ideas have been discussed - putting up the bees in attics.

I would not wish to anyone to be inspecting the bees in hot, dusty, smoky, dark, cramped attic in the middle of summer.
Not to mention the logistics of the getting the live bee hives up there (or out of there).
Add to this a pretty good chance of stepping through the sheet rock ceiling. Ouch.


----------



## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

brudosd,
Welcome for post #1. 
Glad you made the garage work for you. Not all locals are the same, neither are all garages or beekeepers.


----------



## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

GregV said:


> Add to this a pretty good chance of stepping through the sheet rock ceiling. Ouch.


Been there, done that.


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

If you haevn't seen it, Scott Hendriks has several Ytube videos that showcase his "attic apiary" for overwintering nucs. Not really the dark dusty attic image we conjure up. but attic nonetheless.

https://youtu.be/tsyUYLdV9Fo


----------

