# Feeding feral bees for a future trapout



## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

I'm not sure if it's been done, but like you i'm thinking about giving it a whirl. My thoughts are to make the hive swarm faster then they normally would due to lack of area to store food. Give them some heavy syrup early in the spring and keep feeding them till they swarm out. I'll place a box near the hive with plenty of room and some drawn comb for the scouts to find and bait it with lemongrass oil. With any luck i'll get the swarm pretty fast and be able to keep the genetic mother of the colony that has been there for a while. Then later on come back once i know they have a queen again and set up a trap out. Two hives for the yard..


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

Cleo Hogan just sent me his trap out method. He said you can do the trap out and put the queen back in the tree, so you could do two trapouts instead. My swarm trap success rate isn't that high. One out of 5 one year. None out 6 the next. I'm not giving it up though. This is only my second winter with bees though, so not an expert.:

Syrup in the spring sounds good. Not sure if my bee tree can't wait until it's warm enough for that.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

If they can't you don't want them


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

I hadn't thought of it that way, Harley. If they are an established hive and couldn't make it on their own I wouldn't want them. If they were a late swarm and needed feeding, does that make them undesirable? Guess I don't really know what causes bees to swarm too late to get established?


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## jbraun (Nov 13, 2013)

Ken, I've got a trap out in an old church in my town to do this spring. I'm going to wait until March before I set up the trap out. But that has to do with kids more than anything else.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Kenww said:


> I hadn't thought of it that way, Harley. If they are an established hive and couldn't make it on their own I wouldn't want them. If they were a late swarm and needed feeding, does that make them undesirable? Guess I don't really know what causes bees to swarm too late to get established?


I'm sure there are many, if the were in too small of a cavity and hit a heck of a late honey flow they might not be bad bees. If they absconded from their previous home due to mite load or other problem it's probably best nature takes its course. How was your fall honey flow there?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Harley Craig said:


> If they can't you don't want them


What do you mean Harley? If who can't do what? Then why wouldn't you want them?


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Kenww said:


> Syrup in the spring sounds good. Not sure if my bee tree can't wait until it's warm enough for that.





Harley Craig said:


> If they can't you don't want them


Mark - I'm thinking Harley was talking about above post from the OP..


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

Harley, we did have a good fall flow and a late frost.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I am having a hard time understanding this whole Thread premiss. Feeding a feral colony?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Mark... I have fed feral colonies lots of times. The reason is to build the tree colony up, long before the first honey flow. Take my first 3 to 5 pounds off the feral colony the 1st of April. Then when the Mid-April honey flow starts, take another 3 to 5 pounds the 1st of May. By that time there is plenty out there for the colony to build up. Take another start about the 1st of June. Then, depending on what is left blooming, you may get one more colony the last of June. Then I stop trapping so I don't kill the feral colony for lack of Winter stores in the tree. I remove the trap, but, leave the tree transition in place for next Spring. A good tree will yield 3 to 5 good colonies each year. You don't hurt the parent colony, and your success rate is 100%, whereas if you depend on swarm boxes, your success rate is hit and miss.

If you want to catch the queen, and take her, then you must allow more time between taking the bees to allow the feral colony to make themselves a queen, and build back up.

Getting ready to head to Moore Haven. Looking forward to seeing Jon and his bees.

cchoganjr


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

How do you feed them, Cleo? Will dry sugar in a trap/hive in front of the hole but not connected yet work?


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## billabell (Apr 19, 2010)

Last Spring I had a swarm take up residence in a stack of boxes which were all misaligned with frames tossed in them every which way that I had left outside my apiary fence. A bottom board was on top of the stack (that is just me :lookout and that is where they attached their comb. I put a standard cover on it to keep the rain out. Life happens, and while I was contemplating what to do with them the summer was gone. I was going to bee vacuum them but with Cleo's generous help and advice I am going to trap them out. In the meantime i bored a couple of holes in that bottom/top board and laid in some sugar patties and even poured some sugar into the hive through the bored holes. I then wrapped the stack because it needed a wind break. So far they seem to be enjoying life - flying out on warmish sunny days. I am hoping like Cleo says to get several starts out of them this Spring. Whatever,it will be an adventure.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Something that never occurred to me to consider and get my head around as something people do. Never would have thunk it.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Kenww... I have never tried that. In fact, I never use dry sugar, but, I suppose it should work. Especially if there is nothing blooming. 

I always feed through a migratory cover on the trap.

cchoganjr


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

I think I'll try some dry sugar now and syrup when it warms up.


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Why wouldn't you connect the trap now? If the bees become accustomed to the trap enough that they move the guards to the entrance of the trap you could feed syrup in the trap without as much robbing worry. I don't know if they could break cluster to move to dry sugar in really cold conditions but the chance seems better if they don't have to go outdoors to get into the box.
Bill


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I take the traps off for the Winter to avoid empty space that mice may move into when the bees are clustered in the tree. I would rather have the guard bees closer to the hive cluster during the Winter months. The guards will move out to the trap entrance when you put the trap back on in Early Spring, (when the bees start flying on a regular basis.

I don't want the bees moving into the trap as a permanent hive, and clustering there all Winter. I want them to live in the tree, and then come into the trap in the Spring to use the trap as an additional brood chamber, so I can remove 3 to 5 pounds of bees, three to five times each year.

If I am going to feed them, that means they are breaking cluster on a regular basis, and, yes, I would install the trap and feed through a migratory top feeder. 

Have never tried dry sugar in the empty trap, but, I would be afraid it would draw mice, roaches, other critters you might not want.

cchoganjr


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

Thanks, everybody.


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

HI Cleo do you have any pics of these trap outs you have done? I am very interested in the details of how this is working for you. Is the queen coming into the trap box and laying it up? When you remove brood and/or bees are you then relying on them to make their own queen? sometimes do you end up catching the queen in the trap? 

Thanks EC


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Eric... Yes, I have lots of photos of trapouts. And a lot of them are already posted here on beesource in previous threads about trapouts.

I use the trap more to catch starts from a tree, tank, or house, than to eliminate a colony from a tree, tank, or house, but, it will work for any of these..

Radar...... Help me here. Guide him to where this has been explained before. (THANKS). I have explained in detail, more than once, the probability of getting the queen using my trapping method. I would bet you can tell Eric which thread to read that explains in detail the probabilities, and what influences your chances of getting the queen. Short answer, yes, if the trap is close to the feral brood nest, during a good honey flow, and if you have a frame that has unsealed brood, (no bees) that you can put in the trap then you will, quite likely get the queen.

No on removing the queen unless I want that feral bloodline. I normally put the queen back into the tunnel and give the trapped colony a new Minnesota Hygienic queen, or, you can let the bees you move, (where the queen had been laying) make a queen from her eggs. Be very careful, if you take the queen, you can possibly doom the feral colony. If the queen has been in your trap for a few days laying, and you take her, there may not be any viable eggs in the feral colony (back in the tree) for them to make a queen.

Yes on catching the queen. As above, you will get her most often under the right circumstances.

Have you received my 12 page guide to using the trap??? It has photos of traps in progress and explains the process in detail with photos of each step. If not, e-mail me, [email protected] and I will send to you.

I can place photos here, but, better to get them with the trapout instructions. I will post a couple here to show how to block out all entrances except one, and then, how the trap is attached.

This photo shows how to block all entrances except one, and the transition from the tree.










This photo shows a trap attached to a transition. Look closely and you can see that the guard bees have moved out to the entrance of the trap.










I will see if I can find the threads where I explained the probabilities of getting the queen, and more detail on how the trap is used.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Eric... I found two good threads which should help with the questions you asked above.

1. "What to do with a tank full of bees" started by WD9N 12-28-2014. At post # 14 I explain many of the factors which contribute to whether or not you get the queen.

2. "Need trapout expert wisdom" started by Bee Whisper 10-21-2014. Trapout procedures talked about in this thread.

These threads are found in the Swarms and trapouts section.

cchoganjr


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

many thanks Cleo. I will read through those


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Try this thread
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?259430-Wanting-to-get-the-queen-from-a-trap-out-HOW
Bill


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

Cleo, you said if you were going to feed to build them up, you'd attach the trap and feed syrup through the top. It sounds like you usually only leave the trap attached a few days. When you feed, do you leave them on last longer?

Also, does the transition have to be very big? I was thinking of using pvc pipe. It's only going to be a few inches long. The box will be ready right next to the tree.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Kenww.... Yes, if I am going to feed, very early Spring, I attach the trap and feed, using a migratory top with a mason jar.

No actually, I leave the trap on all Spring, and Summer, . Then I remove the trap, and just leave the transition attached to the tree. I remove it because I do not want the bees to move out into the trap for Fall and Winter. I would rather they stay in the tree over the Winter. Also I do not want mice to move into the trap during the Winter when the bees are clustered in the tree. 

I rarely move the trap, rather, I remove frames with the bees on them. Using this method, you obviously do not get all the bees. Some will fly while you are transferring frames. Some will be on the walls and floor of the trap. But, if you have 3 or more pounds of bees on the frames, that is all you need to make a good start. By removing the frames you can also check to see if you have the queen. If I find her, I normally put her back in the trap and let the bees make a queen from the eggs she has layed in the trap, or, I sometimes place a new Minnesota Hygienic queen in the box with the frames from the trap. I move the new hive about 3 miles to another yard for a short period of time.

There is nothing magic about the transition. It can be made of wood, 2 pipes, 2 dryer hoses, or anything else. The only reason I normally use wood, is, If you are going to use the funnel for elimination of a colony, It is easier to drill a hole and install the funnel in wood than in pipes.

Here is a transition on a small tree that i took 3 starts from in 2014. In mid March I will slide the trap over the transition, duct tape the two together, and feed to build the colony up faster. You don't have to worry about robbing as the guard bees will move to the front of the trap, and the tree is not near any large number of bee colonies. By feeding, and stimulating the queen, I can likely take the first start about the 10 to 15th of April, whereas, if I don't feed, the colony will build up very slowly, as they will need a good honey flow and that doesn't start here until 20 to 30 April, and I could not take my first start until about 15 to 20 June. By feeding, I can get one start 30 days earlier than not feeding. Total cost for the feeding will be less than $10.00 (4 gallons of sugar syrup). This colony is right on the road, half way from my house to my primary bee yard, and I drive past it every day on the way to the bee yard.










cchoganjr


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

I think the bees in the tree probably died out. I checked a week or so ago when it was about 60. Didnt see one bee. I'd already built a shelf for the trap and was really looking forward to trying a trap out. I'm hoping a swarm will move in and I can try this tree some day. One hole, close to a road, and only about 7' up. Seemed about perfect. Guess I'll try to find another tree.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Don't go find another tree just yet.
You've already got your setup design for a trap out, right? If the nest is indeed dead and empty, this means that a swarm will more than likely move to this now empty nest this spring. So here is my proposal and it's been something that I've always wanted to try but I haven't found this opportunity yet. Why not do a trap IN? If indeed the bees are dead, block off the entrance to the tree with hardware cloth and set your bait hive up in front of the hardware cloth. Put a frame of drawn comb in the box with a little bit of lemongrass oil. Do this before swarm season and I'll bet you get yourself a swarm in your trap at the pre existing nest site. Just make sure the nest is actually dead of natural causes before you try it.....if you decide to try it of course. If you do, keep us posted.


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

That's a really interesting idea. I'll probably give it a try if the bees are all dead. I think there's a slight chance they could be alive. The tree is pretty shaded. Possibly it didn't warm up as fast as I'd expected?


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Kenww said:


> That's a really interesting idea. I'll probably give it a try if the bees are all dead. I think there's a slight chance they could be alive. The tree is pretty shaded. Possibly it didn't warm up as fast as I'd expected?


They could very well be then.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

I know this is sort of an old thread ... ken, what did you actually do, & how did I it work?
My bees won't touch the mountain camp sugar I put on the hives until they are comoletely out of honey.
.they prefer sugar candy to honey, eating it while they still have honey in the combs. I am cautioned about feeding syrup too early, as it adds moisture to the hive, which is deadly to the bees when the weather gets cold.

Plus, the bees won't take it unless the liquid is 50 degrees or warmer. (I.am told)
I have seen my bees bringing in pollen already, so would an open dry feeder work?
(I have never tried the open feeder method)
CLEO ?
Thanks .. ce


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

I had decided to wait until it was warmer and use syrup. It got colder instead so I never fed. I think they died out. Not for sure though. If theyre alive, I'll feed syrup then do a trap out. If they aren't, I'll try Talonreddings idea.  It's still too early here, at least this year. 6 inches of snow this am.

My bees like sugar bricks. Haven't tried mountain camp yt.


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