# Brother Adam's Queen Stratagy



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Andrew Dewey said:


> I get the wanting to put tested queens into production colonies. The part I wonder about is the supposed benefits of using young queens. The most obvious one being young queens somehow seem to keep their hive from swarming.


I think that honey bee colonies requeen themselves in two ways...some by supercedure and some by swarming. Requeening by swarming isn't just side benefit...it's the intention. I say this because I've seen many colonies swarm that weren't seemingly populous enough. Haven't you? Colonies with empty supers above, and properly manipulated broodnests. I think it's the only explanation for increased swarming in colonies with older queens.


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## LtlWilli (Mar 11, 2008)

Tested queens would be the best route, but I would think that the performance of the young queens would be evident in the condition of the nucs they are in. Laying amounts and brood patterns would be showing up there. Just my 2 cents, though. More knowledgeable keepers will be along soon to say a more definitive answer.
LtlWilli


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You can find many references from Doolittle, Pellet, Brother Adam and many others that queens do their best work in their second year.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I don't know the answer to this, but do you think that the reason that a hive is less likely to swarm with a new queen is because she is young or because she is new? I agree that requeened hives are less likely to swarm. Is it possible that the hive is more likely to swarm if the bees are her offspring? If so, unless you add her with brood you would see the same lack of swarming.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

I think that there is a strong commercial incentive for Queen producers and the journals that they advertise in to promote requeening with young queens.

*The consumer, rather than the producer bears the cost of overwintering losses.

*Stock can be turned more quickly, so equipment make more money per season.

I think there are similar reasons for the advice to requeen annually, particularly when, as Michael Bush noted, several respected authorities believe SECOND year queens are most productive.

I believe it won't be long before autumn bred, northern queens come to be more in demand for spring requeening than southern bred queens which are shipped as soon as they begin to lay.

Southern queens are great for those with hives int he south. I expect we will see that northern queens are great no matter where they are employed, north or south.


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## beeG (Jun 18, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> You can find many references from Doolittle, Pellet, Brother Adam and many others that queens do their best work in their second year.


This is interesting. I am just wondering how and why it got pupular to requeen every year? There has got to be some reasoning or most would not be doing it?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I would have phrased this: they do best in their second season, meaning to me production season. Fall being the end of one production season, spring being the beginning of a second production season. Which in my case if very young in fall they come on gangbusters in spring, but with the die off problem the last few years they die the next summer or winter.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

beeG said:


> This is interesting. I am just wondering how and why it got pupular to requeen every year? There has got to be some reasoning or most would not be doing it?


Should we chalk it up to effective advertising? Or real world conditions where failing/failed queens require immediate replacement?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

As a question, could this be a causative scenario favoring overwintered queens VS new spring queens?
Early spring queen production pushes the envelope of availability of drones and suitable flying weather for optimal mating. Could hive treatments further lower drone fertility or sperm counts to further stack the odds against the vigor of a spring queen vs one mated in the full of the previous summer.
Does a queen that has the maximum number of fully developed ovariole (sp.?) have a higher potential laying rate per 24 hr period? Is a queen with a lowly initial amount of sperm prone to a shorter laying life?

Has the greatly increased hive mortality resulted in a higher number of queen replacements putting pressure on their breeding into less propitious conditions. There certainly seems to be reports of an increase in queen failure, supercedure, and just poor performance.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

crofter said:


> Early spring queen production pushes the envelope of availability of drones and suitable flying weather for optimal mating. Could hive treatments further lower drone fertility or sperm counts to further stack the odds against the vigor of a spring queen vs one mated in the full of the previous summer.


Well said!


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Brother Adam also believed that the best queens were raised on queen right colonies, Not queen right starter hive or queen right finisher hive, but queen right from start to finish. Nobody does this now days because it is difficult to do in large quantities.

If you want to duplicate his success this is the aspect I would worry about over any other.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I've never read about a good method of using a queen-right colony only. Know where I can read a good article, book, or thread about it?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Specialkayme said:


> I've never read about a good method of using a queen-right colony only. Know where I can read a good article, book, or thread about it?


I have experimented with the John Harding method with good results. It involves two queen right hives joined together so you have a good supply of nurse bees and brood. http://www.bibba.com/john_harding_method.php


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Wouldn't the Cloake board method fill these conditions?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

crofter said:


> Wouldn't the Cloake board method fill these conditions?


 No because a cloake board essentially divides the hive into two that are just stacked on top of one another. The area the cells are built in is queenless and the bees are rearing emergency cells.

Bro Adams separated the queen from the cells far enough in the hive that the pheromone would be weak enough to stimulate the bees to build cells, but still present so they are not raising emergency queens.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Beregondo said:


> I think that there is a strong commercial incentive for Queen producers and the journals that they advertise in to promote requeening with young queens.
> 
> *The consumer, rather than the producer bears the cost of overwintering losses.
> 
> ...


Some serious misunderstandings here...

1. Queen producers do not need to push for losses so they can sell more queens... there has always been much more demand than production and its not due to the need to replace losses to poor queens, but rather it is fueled by the need to expand operations to produce more of their own products... the losses to varroa, nosema, and poor wintering methods account for over 100 times more than the losses of failed queens... the only reason that queens are even produced so early (when they run the highest risk of not getting mated fully) is because the buyers demand it...

2. The advice to requeen annually originally comes from the major pollenation operations, but was not given to everyone else as advice, but was observed by many and passed on mainly through associations and clubs that did not understand what the purpose of the annual requeening was for, but rather assumed it was a helpful practice for all, when it is not...

3. Queens are in their best season in year two and three, but poor record keeping and swarm management practices limit most bee keepers from ever really experiencing this...

4. Queens from the north do not fair well in the south, just as queens from the south do not fair well in the north... the most common communication is that southern breeders only produce southern queens... that is just not the case, as northern select queens are shipped to the south to take advantage of the early season so they can be in production by the time the northern operations need them... its not a "north vs south" issue and all of the "us vs them" propaganda really just sets back our whole industry... we have an excellent situation which gives us the opportunity to utilize the early seasons of the south to produce queens in time to be useful to the north, those queens are not all southern ladies...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

bluegrass said:


> The area the cells are built in is queenless and the bees are rearing emergency cells. Bro Adams separated the queen from the cells far enough in the hive that the pheromone would be weak enough to stimulate the bees to build cells, but still present so they are not raising emergency queens.


There are a few fundamentals that you are missing... the poorer quality of an e-queen comes from the poor nutrition period while the larvae is being floated out to the outer edge of the horizontal cell before it can begin its vertical development... when a larvae is grafted into a cell and placed in a builder in a vertical position that period is omitted and the larvae is fed the proper nutrition immediately... whether the builder is queenless or queen right, so long as larvae are transferred into the horizontal position, they are not making e-queens...

Adam used a combination of the queenless instinct and the swarm instinct... which is exactly what the vast majority of breeders in the US do... a queenless starter with and over abundance of nurses and brood has both the queenless cell building impulse and the swarm impulse... this is why they are so terribly confused... this starts the cells to provide optimal nutrition for the first 24 hours... after that the cells are moved to a queenright finisher that has also had the swarm impulse induced but is hindered from actually swarming by a frame manipulation...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Andrew Dewey said:


> an apparent contradiction between Brother Adam's queen strategy and the current conventional wisdom. Brother Adam advocated having new queens over winter in nucs, so as show that 1) they can survive, and 2) their performance as queens. After over wintering new queens in a nuc the queens would be collected and placed in production colonies, replacing their existing queen. His observation is that queens thus over wintered and established at acting queenly are much better accepted than the young & nervous newly mated queens typically commercially available.
> 
> I get the wanting to put tested queens into production colonies. The part I wonder about is the supposed benefits of using young queens. The most obvious one being young queens somehow seem to keep their hive from swarming.


I think that the majority of this issue all comes down to what the young queens are used for once the buyer receives them... they could be used in the same way that brother Adam describes... or they can be used to requeen colonies with older queens, or they could be used to start new colonies... to get to the second season queen, you must first get through the first season and/or winter... so using the young queens in spring to replace good queens that are just starting their second season is silly... the idea is to use them for one of the three purposes that I have listed above... 

1. Start nucleus colonies to overwinter...

2. Replace aged queens so that the new queen will begin the following season as a second year queen...

3. Start new colonies for increase, again having the first year of production for these colonies being the second year for the queens...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I've never read about a good method of using a queen-right colony only. Know where I can read a good article, book, or thread about it? 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearingsimplified.htm#c9
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesdoolittle.htm#CHAPTER7

http://www.bushfarms.com/xstar.htm#Classic Queen Rearing Compendium

"Rearing Queens in Oueenright Colonies. 

"The author prefers to rear queens in a queenright colony, since it is not so difficult to maintain normal conditions over a long period of time, and the bees are not so sensitive to fluctuations in weather conditions or honeyflow. It is not always possible to make a success with the first batch of cells given by this plan, but once accepted the same colony can be kept busy rearing cells for weeks, or even all summer if desired. 

"One plan which is followed by successful breeders is to select a strong colony for cell building. Remove the cover, and put a queen excluder in its place. Then take enough frames of brood from several different colonies to fill a second brood-chamber above the excluder, leaving one vacant space. Care must be used to make sure that no queen is on the frames placed in the second story. The vacant space is left as near the center of the colony as possible, and a few hours later a frame of prepared cells is placed there, feeding the bees with syrup from the sprinkling can at the time the cells are given. If this first batch of cells is not readily accepted try again the following day. After four days a second batch can be given, and a new batch every four days thereafter. By this plan the cells are left with the colony until ready to be given to the nuclei. It only becomes necessary to add two or three frames of sealed brood every week to provide the colony with plenty of young bees for nurses, to continue cell building indefinitely. About ten to fifteen sealed cells can be secured from a single colony every four days by this plan. If a heavy honeyflow comes on, it may become necessary to add supers between the brood nest below and the cell-building chamber above, since the old queen continues to lay in normal manner below the excluder. By this method the cell-building colony will give a crop of honey as well as queens. The addition of so much brood from other colonies will keep the cell-building colony very strong throughout the season. Of course, frames of honey must be removed from time to time as frames of brood are given, and, during a good flow, it may become necessary to remove frames of honey quite often to prevent crowding in the cell-building chamber."--Frank Pellett, Practical Queen Rearing

http://www.bushfarms.com/xstar.htm#Practical Queen Rearing


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

bluegrass said:


> Brother Adam also believed that the best queens were raised on queen right colonies, Not queen right starter hive or queen right finisher hive, but queen right from start to finish. Nobody does this now days because it is difficult to do in large quantities.


Well, I use his method of cell building, and find it works well with my nucleus colony operation. Adam added a box of brood above the excluder on a strong colony. Ten days later, the hive was taken apart. On the old stand went the added brood...now all sealed. The old hive was removed to a new stand after shaking the core of the broodnest into the cell builder. That afternoon, the graft was given. For five days, until the cells are sealed, the cell builder remains queenless. At that time the queenright hive is brought back and re-located on the old stand. The cell builder with freshly capped queen cells in placed above an excluder on the queenright colony. So, the cell builder is queenless for five days.

I say it fits my nucleus colony operation. All the brood I use comes from untreated, overwintered nucs. I get three rounds of cells from my cell builders, adding two frames of honey and seven frames of sealed brood each time I use the colony for a batch of cells. The process takes twenty days from setup to cell harvest. The day the cells are removed, the cell builder is once again given two frames of honey and seven frames of brood.

By the start of the third round of cells, a prolific queen will have 15 frames of brood below the excluder...which includes seven or eight frames of open brood. Think of the number of nurse bees in that hive to take care of the larvae....or to nurse your cells when you use them for that purpose.

Which makes me think...There was a thread awhile ago..."What did you learn this summer"...or something like that. 

Well, seeing these super colonies built from strong colonies and added brood, I realize what a good queen is capable of. Perhaps not many colonies will build to enormous populations and fifteen frames of brood, but it may be that good queens are held back from their best performance by lack of population. With a good queen, the more populous a colony the more brood it is able to support. The more brood the more bees, the more bees the more brood, the more brood...and so on.

Remember...it's all about the jelly!

Brother Adam's method builds enormous populations of young bees, young jelly making bees...on a honey flow a perfect swarming setup... and then uses the queenless impulse to get the bees to start the cells. I think it a fantastic cell building method and suitable for almost any size operation. When combined with brood harvesting from wintered nucleus colonies instead of production colonies, the process is sustainable over time.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

rrussell6870 said:


> Some serious misunderstandings here...
> 
> 1. Queen producers do not need to push for losses so they can sell more queens...


I see what you are saying Russell, but I actually think it's a little between the two extremes. Queen breeders (at least the one's I've encountered, *cough *cough ) don't push for annual re-queening. It really is a seller's market with queens. They don't care if you re-queen once a year or once every five years, they are selling every queen they can either way. All of that is true.

But in being a seller's market, the seller is pushed to produce more, and faster. Sometimes this is because the buyer demands it, and sometimes it's because the seller is trying to maximize the (very small) profit that they can get out of a season. Either way, whether it's the buyer's demand, or the seller's pushing of the product, the stretch eventually creates queens of poor quality. Poor quality queens get superceded and need to be replaced more often. It's a down-ward spiral - at least until you find a decent breeder and/or start making your own queens, lol.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

bluegrass said:


> I have experimented with the John Harding method with good results. It involves two queen right hives joined together so you have a good supply of nurse bees and brood. http://www.bibba.com/john_harding_method.php


I actually already read that post, but didn't make the connection. Oops.

Having read it in the past and it not being fresh (I'll obviously have to re-read it) I don't really see what the benefits are. You would need to create a very elaborate system, and in the end you are just building a queen-rite finisher (which I use in standard 5 and 10 frame equipment). Am I missing something?

At the time, I thought it was an interesting experiment . . . but I didn't really see it's working benefits.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

bluegrass said:


> Brother Adam also believed that the best queens were raised on queen right colonies, Not queen right starter hive or queen right finisher hive, but queen right from start to finish.





Michael Palmer said:


> Well, I use his method of cell building, and find it works well with my nucleus colony operation. Adam added a box of brood above the excluder on a strong colony. Ten days later, the hive was taken apart. On the old stand went the added brood...now all sealed. The old hive was removed to a new stand after shaking the core of the broodnest into the cell builder. That afternoon, the graft was given. For five days, until the cells are sealed, the cell builder remains queenless. At that time the queenright hive is brought back and re-located on the old stand. The cell builder with freshly capped queen cells in placed above an excluder on the queenright colony. So, the cell builder is queenless for five days.


Perhaps I'm confused (it happens). Are you two talking about the same method? 

They seem at total odds.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

That's because Adam's methods were not queenright from start to finish... the nurse factory is separated then reunited... 

It's a combination of instincts, not one or the other, but both...


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

rrussell6870 said:


> ... the nurse factory is separated then reunited...


What's the benefit as opposed to the standard swarm box method?

I've always read that a queen-less hive is great for building cells (or the first 24-48 hours) but poor at finishing them (although admittedly it may be different if you keep the queen-less hive open, rather then closed as a swarm box is). Have I been misinformed? Or did I just not fully understand? If Bro. Adam kept his cell builder queen-less for five days (or until capped) then there is a disconnect with my current knowledge . . . .


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Specialkayme said:


> But in being a seller's market, the seller is pushed to produce more, and faster. Sometimes this is because the buyer demands it, and sometimes it's because the seller is trying to maximize the (very small) profit that they can get out of a season. Either way, whether it's the buyer's demand, or the seller's pushing of the product, the stretch eventually creates queens of poor quality. Poor quality queens get superceded and need to be replaced more often. It's a down-ward spiral - at least until you find a decent breeder and/or start making your own queens, lol.


This is true in some operations... as you know, I am on a quest to identify and teach against the causes of the poor quality queens... I have found that it really comes down to a group of contradicting side issues... 

1. Mite treatments lowering sperm quality.

2. Plastic foundation limiting drone production... this may not seem like such a big deal, but when one considers that queen producers are such heavy comb manipulators, bur comb that would normally provide the drone cells are few and far between...

3. Poor nutrition partially caused by the extra early demand requiring some to replace natural food with substitutes... 

4. Inferior guttural enzymes from anti-biotics being heavily used in some operations... leading to guttural infections once the queens are placed in "real world" environments...

5. A lack of conviction which leads to lower standards in culling... this is primarily due to the yelling and screaming "I want them now" customers putting pressure on the breeders... of course, as I think many have found this season, I would prefer to lose a customer over slower delivery than have the customer lose hives due to poor quality queens... culling is extremely important when you are battling the elements of a pre-season demand...

6. Inbreeding... too many queens are produced from sister breeder queens, and too little emphasis is given to the roll of the drones... drone selection is just as important as queen selection and the buyers are the ones that suffer when they get 100 sisters in their operations...

7. Acclimation... there tends to be too much of a control issue amongst bee keepers... when we ran honey production and had queens come in from a fellow breeder from another state for splits, we WANTED them to be superceded... if they were not, then they did fine, if they were, then our drones would provide a localized instinct to the new colonies, thus they did excellent... especially in the next season...

8. Genetics... take a look at the breeder queens that are most commonly used in the market today... more than half have genetics from a foreign region... follow the production and colony losses as a timeline matched with the promotion of these genetics and you will find extremely relevant similarities... at a time when people are grasping at straws for answers and realizing the benefits of acclimation, the most evident answer seems to be overlooked... how can one consider themselves to be concerned about acclimation when the root genetics that drive the instincts of the queens in their operation are foreign to the entire nation... this not only means season timing and and store conservation, but also types of food source and swarming/reproduction instincts...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Specialkayme said:


> What's the benefit as opposed to the standard swarm box method?


It's the period of expansion and swarm instinct trigger that comes from the heavy manipulation before hand... 

Keep in mind, there are no "Best" methods... just those that work well and those that do not... the producer has to think on his feet and work With the bees in each method..."when on doubt, try it out"... during a flow the methods all seem to work with little effort... during the dearths or poor weather conditions, one must find the optimal method for their particular situation... all of these methods are deviations of the basics... so start there and try, try, and try again until you have fine tuned your own methods for each situation that the bees and the weather will put you in...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Specialkayme said:


> What's the benefit as opposed to the standard swarm box method?


For me, it's about sustainability. I set up another round of 4 cell builders every 4 days. To use the swarm box method, I would have to be harvesting nurse bees from production colonies or dedicated nurse bee colonies. That takes a lot of colonies. Using Adam's method, I only have to use 20 colonies for my cell builders and my wintered and expanded nucleus colonies for boosting the cell builders. No colonies have anything taken away. No colonies are compromised or weakened. When I'm finished setting up cell builders, those wintered nucs get gradually broken up into nucs for wintering.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

That brings up a point about queen raising as an integrated part of running the business as a whole M Palmer has got it to where the queen raising works in with everything else he does, which includes keeping all hives as productive as possible, making up nucs to go through the winter, and producing nucs for sale. The whole thing is all interwoven.

For me, when I was raising queens commercially, but was not producing (much) honey to be sold, we only ever used the swarm box method for starting cells. Not because no other ways are any good, but because we were package bee producers and always had packages available to dump into the swarm boxes, it required less labor than any other way as package production was very streamlined. The other thing, in that area, the climate, flow patterns, etc made bees very swarm prone, most of the commercial beekeepers found it near enough impossible. But for us, I cannot even remember losing a swarm, the hives were having packages taken from them regularly and that had a side benefit of preventing swarming. We also used packges to start the nucs we did not overwinter nucs.

So the first thing a person does when experimenting with queen breeding is find some way to do it, and how it all works. I can STILL remember the first queen I raised myself, when I was a schoolkid, and how much excitment that brought! . But once a person understands how it's done, they then start building a system that works and fits in with everything else they are doing.

BTW Bro Adams work was some of the first queen breeding literature I read and helped lay some of the basics of queen breeding for me. But like all of us he had his own environment, needs, and also a pool of laborers that could be used.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

rrussell6870 said:


> Some serious misunderstandings here...


Thank you for taking the time to enlighten me. 
I stand corrected


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

No worries. Glad I could help.


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Specialkayme said:


> Perhaps I'm confused (it happens). Are you two talking about the same method?
> 
> They seem at total odds.





rrussell6870 said:


> That's because Adam's methods were not queenright from start to finish... the nurse factory is separated then reunited...
> 
> It's a combination of instincts, not one or the other, but both...


 Mike and Bluegrass are both correct, Brother Adam used both methods of cell raising, Q+ from start to finnish, and a version where the queen was separated for a few days, when i visited he was using the Q+ method from start to finnish.



> Brother Adam (1975),using the queenright
> method to rear the queens at Buckfast Abbey, reported an average acceptance rate of about 80%.
> Although Brother Adam was convinced that queens of the highest quality could be raised using the queenright method, he changed over to a more complex queenless system, reporting that an average acceptance rate of about 90% was obtained with the latter, and a larger number of queen cells could be raised more reliably. It is not clear whether
> Brother Adam compared the two methods in the same year.


http://www.docshut.com/iwrqmy/rearing-queen-honeybees.html 

rrussell, as above.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I plan to start replacing my queens late summer each year... Local beekeeper near me does that and he averages more honey than I do by far. Not sure if he had other voodoo tricks in his bag or not.

My thoughts are 

1. The queens are young, but had a chance to mature into a laying machine.
2. They should be well mated, since their are plenty of drones and flying weather.
3. It should give me a chance to make better selections for grafting stock in the spring. 

I.e. These queens made it through winter and built up sooner/faster than these... 

That's my plan for this coming year anyway... Whether it works out that way remains to be seen on how much work lets me stay near the house.


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## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

Andrew Dewey said:


> I'm working my way through "Beekeeping at Buckfast Abby" (again) and am struck by an apparent contradiction between Brother Adam's queen strategy and the current conventional wisdom. Brother Adam advocated having new queens over winter in nucs, so as show that 1) they can survive, and 2) their performance as queens. After over wintering new queens in a nuc the queens would be collected and placed in production colonies, replacing their existing queen. His observation is that queens thus over wintered and established at acting queenly are much better accepted than the young & nervous newly mated queens typically commercially available.
> 
> I get the wanting to put tested queens into production colonies. The part I wonder about is the supposed benefits of using young queens. The most obvious one being young queens somehow seem to keep their hive from swarming.
> 
> ...


In his book, Brother Adam says................"By the mere substitution of a young queen we are enabled to renew the main-spring of the life of a colony - indeed, we have at our command the power to rejuvenate and keep a colony perpetually young and at its maximum productive ability."

I'm reading his book again and his requeening process is interesting. He requeens 2/3rd of the production colonies mainly in the early spring at the same time he equalizes the hives. He goes to the mating yard and cages queens that he reared and mated the year before but have never used and then as he is equalizing the hives he takes out the old queen, puts her in a cage, and puts the new queen to be released in the production hive. The old queen is returned to the same mating nuc that the new queen came out of where she stays until the end of May when she is "removed" to make room for the virgin queens "raised in accordance with the year's breeding plans."

Something else that's interesting is he keeps more mating nucs than he does production colonies. I think he said somewhere that he keeps about 320 production colonies but 600-700 mated queens in the mating yard.

This seems like an awesome strategy since it provides a proven queen that's lasted through the winter, been laying for a while, and since it's her first spring she's popping them out at maximum capacity building up for that honey flow that could be short due to irregular weather conditions where he's at.


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