# Bee killers!!!!



## Rohe Bee Ranch (Feb 12, 2008)

Turn them in to the state! I hate when this happens.


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## tnmx (Jan 23, 2009)

Hey Ken
Sorry to here about the about the bees and your loss. I had something like that happen in Hendersonville, TN last year. A swarm of bees had set up shop under a water meter cover. They called me I went over tocollect them. When I pulled the cover off there was some fresh drawn comb and a lot of dead bees in the bottom by the meter. The lawm service came over around 1:00pm and must have sprayed poision in the meter cover slot. The home owner was as upset as I was.


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

Here in California, I have been told by people that it is against the law to kill honey bees, but don't know California's official stand is on the subject. Say what you want, but I just continue to pass along the info that "it's illegal to kill them." It's not that I am puposely trying to feed people bad info, I'm just trying to keep people from killing the bees. I talked to a local business that has bees in a wall. THEY WANTED ME TO PAY THEM $150 FOR THE REPAIR COST. I told them that that was not gonna happen, but to be advised that it was illegal to kill them. I drove by the other day, they put a cap over the entrance. I would love to call on it, but have not, even if it is illegal, I wonder if the they'll get away with it for one reason or another. But I am REALLY crossing my fingers that when summer comes and the wax and honey start to heat up and melt, that it makes a huge mess.

Craig


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Batman said:


> Here in California, I have been told by people that it is against the law to kill honey bees


I hear this pretty often. No, it is not illegal to kill honey bees. 

They are not an "endangered species" and are not protected by any laws. An exception would be if somebody else kills your bees. There would be laws governing property loss. 

If you own bees, they are yours to kill as you see fit (like if they are vicious or diseased). 

If they are in a house, they are pests and pest control operators are just as free to kill them as they are to kill roaches and ants. Some areas require a license to perform this service, and insurance. 

If you are a homeowner and have bees in your house, they belong to you and you can do what you want with them. They can be killed cheaply with over the counter products designed for wasps. 

Some of these don't even have insecticides, but are made from detergents and essential oils. Most insects are killed by soapy water and this is the method of choice for African bee swarms. Fast and cheap. 

Saving the honey bees from a house or tree is a noble thing but it can be very difficult and time consuming. Most knowledgeable beekeepers start at $300 and it goes up depending on the complexity of the job. 

Some do not do carpentry, so the cost could easily double. Hence, in terms of cost, a pest removal service is much more economical. Cheaper still is the do it yourself route. 

I love bees as much or more than anyone. But they don't belong in houses, any more than you would want crows nesting in your kitchen.


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## chandler (May 28, 2009)

While that does suck, you have no proof what happened to them. May not have anything to do with anyone. Maybe they just left and went somewhere else? I'd hate to be blamed for something I didn't do or in this situation didn't know I did it.


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

peterloringborst said:


> I hear this pretty often. No, it is not illegal to kill honey bees.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> ...


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

chandler said:


> While that does suck, you have no proof what happened to them. May not have anything to do with anyone. Maybe they just left and went somewhere else? I'd hate to be blamed for something I didn't do or in this situation didn't know I did it.


Since I am always going by there and looking at them, salavating at getting them, I know they were still there the day before it was capped off. It was a well establish colony. Did they get up and leave? Maybe, but worth looking into. They estimated the repair cost to be $150 and wanted me to pay it. Im sure when that wax starts melting and the honey starts to drain down from the roof, the cost is going to be more than that. I'm not trying to be jerk, heck I would have even given them a jar of honey, but I surely was not going to pay them $. I can buy a single story deep established hive for $75 or a double deep for $150. Same price, less work? Not a hard choice to make.

Craig


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Batman said:


> Just got off the phone with the Dept of Food and Ag. I asked the exact question "is it illegal to kill honeybees?"


I believe the gentlemen to be a complete nitwit who has no idea what he's talking about.


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

Well, whatever. It's his job to know these things, but who knows. Regardless, I talked to the owner of the building, and she said a local guy from the next town over removed it and I kind of believe her since they said they found 3 queen cells.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

exterminating bees is big business in many states, including California. In Arizona it is illegal to have unhived bees on your property. Florida has outlawed bees in many counties.


Bee Exterminators



> Abolish Pest Control are professionals when it comes to identifiying the problem, remove the bees and removing bee hives. Bee extermination is what we do. With rising concerns of the Africanized bee (killer bee) more people are now looking to control their bee problems rather than avoiding them. Unlike other pest control companies who only kill the bees but don't fully solve the problem; We find the hive, remove the bees, remove the hive and prevent future infestations of the area. That is true bee control!
> 
> Bee extermination is our expertise. We have serviced Southern California for over 30 years. Our technicians are highly trained and experts in bee extermination. We don't just exterminate the bees. We search the area, your home and establish where the hive is. Then we eliminate the bees in a manner that would cause the least damage to your home or the area. once all the bees have been exterminated we begin removal of the hive. It is essential to remove the hive and honey to prevent future problems such as other pests or bees. Bee removal services don't just end there, once the bees and hive are removed we clean the area and proof the area of future bee infestations.
> 
> ...


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> Is it illegal to kill honey bees?
> 
> Many pesticide labels include warnings to avoid spraying flowering plants or crops outdoors where honey bees are likely to be foraging for nectar and pollen (e.g., in a garden or planted field). In those situations, it is important to obey the labeling to help protect the bees. However, when bees invade a home, or a colony is a threat , you have the right to remove them (preferably) or to kill them if necessary.
> 
> ...


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## Naturegoods (Mar 12, 2010)

peterloringborst said:


> I believe the gentlemen to be a complete nitwit who has no idea what he's talking about.


Ditto
It's not like you gotta think he works for the government so he has to know what he is talking about!:lpf:

Bees in buildings are dangerous and not protected according to my research last summer on this subject. Lucky for us beeks the media makes a big deal out of honey bee CCD and most people have 'heard something' and therefore don't want to kill the bees. That being said, most cut outs I have done, I know they TRIED to kill the bees before paying me to remove them but the hive tends to be a ways away from the opening and they can buy spray by the case and it won't kill the hive


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> Rumors are prevalent on the Internet that it is illegal to kill bees. This is not unilaterally true. Regardless, it should be remembered that bees are an indispensable part of our planet's ecology.
> 
> Misconceptions
> 1. It is a misconception that it is strictly illegal to kill bees. It depends on the method used to kill the bee. Approaches such as swatting, using natural liquids or administering EPA-approved chemical solutions to kill a bee are not prohibited by law. The use of federally banned pesticides, however, is illegal.


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

To peterloringborst. I copied and pasted to following from a commercial site. I think that the bees are actually covered under a provision of a 2008 law, rather than a 2007 law. Some protection has been afforded to bees, with the decline in colonies. 



If they show Africanized behavior they will be 
immediately destroyed. If however they prove to be uncorrupted 
European stock they will be placed in a standard bee hive and put 
back to work in the ecosystem as nature intended, pollinating and 
producing honey. This is the only logical solution to the growing 
Africanized bee problem. This is the only method used and 
recommended by the USDA. This is the only logical solution to the
growing Africanized bee problem. This is the only method used and 
recommended by the USDA. The only other alternative is to kill all 
honeybees on site, which is now banned by Federal Law under the 
Pollinator's Protection Act of 2007. This Law states the prescribed 
legal method for dealing with honeybees and other pollinators should 
be reduced-impact integrated pest management, which means using 
biological and mechanical alternatives first. This includes but is not 
limited to, biological lures, traps, and removing and relocating 
honeybees alive. Exterminating is permitted as a last resort if no other 
means is available or pruden


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

I would hardly call that definitive. Who has read the act?


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

I worked as a NY State bee inspector in 2006, 2007 and 2008. NY law dictates that bees infected with AFB are to be destroyed and the combs and honey burned. African bees are illegal in NYS and are to be destroyed as well. 

I supervised the destruction of hundreds of hives, as required by law. I believe I would have heard if a law had been passed that would prevent the State inspectors from carrying out their job. 

So far as I know, anyone that owns bees is free to exterminate them as they see fit, and exterminators are free to kill bees at the homeowner's request. I have never seen nor heard of any law that would prevent them from doing so, nor do I believe there is one.

So far nobody has shown even a shred of evidence that killing honey bees is illegal. They are not an endangered species by any stretch of the imagination. They aren't even native to the US. Native wild bees are an entirely different matter; many of these are endangered species.


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## chandler (May 28, 2009)

peterloringborst said:


> exterminating bees is big business in many states, including California. In Arizona it is illegal to have unhived bees on your property. Florida has outlawed bees in many counties.
> 
> 
> Bee Exterminators


I think a lot of people call the whole bee/wasp family bees. My neighbor talked to me the other day about her dog getting attacked by bees while we were talking about my hive. It wasn't bees, it was hornets. She's like, eh, bees, hornets, what's the diff? She asked, so I told her. An hour later, she was sorry she asked.


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## rkr (Oct 30, 2008)

John Q Public is not much help here either, I got a call today on some bees in a $1.25 mil home with (confirmed) Honeybees in it. Once I got the whole story I found out that one exterminator had been there last fall and they owners had been spraying poison up in the hive opening.

I politely declined to "help" them. He had an exterminator coming just after me (in fact I met them in the driveway). I told him that poisoned bees and fouled wax was of no use to me, next time consider calling a beekeeper first.

It was OK and he understood why I could not help him, he was a bit apologetic. I have no idea what they charged him but I did let him know that if he did not remove the combs it could attract more bees, pests and possibly mold and ferment the honey with no bees to maintain it.

Here in Mo although many people are under the impression bees are protected, the Department of Ag said they are not in a phone conversation I had with them.

I would say intentionally killing someones honeybees is a crime, but that is true of any livestock. Kinda like feral hogs vs a hog farm. More of a property crime.

Aren't we asked to report managed colony kills from pesticides to the EPA or DNR?
Maybe that is the confusion. 

RKR


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## PoDuck (Mar 29, 2010)

I have heard it is illegal to kill bees in Tennessee and Illinois. I have not seen the specific laws though. The original poster is in Tennessee, so it may very well be illegal there to some extent.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

PoDuck said:


> I have heard it is illegal to kill bees in Tennessee and Illinois. I have not seen the specific laws though. The original poster is in Tennessee, so it may very well be illegal there to some extent.


Again, it's a case of somebody thought they heard something somwheres.

How can something be illegal to some extent? Under what justification would honey bees be protected? They are commercial farm animals. Also, despite the news reports, the latest count for the USA is well over two million hives, same as it has been for the current decade.

If it were against some law to kill bees, who would enforce it? What agency would press charges against a hive killer? Unless it was destruction of private property without permission. I don't see what possible law would be broken if somebody killed a hive in their attic or whatnot.

You think maybe they're protected by the SPCA? Guess again.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Chick said:


> The only other alternative is to kill all
> honeybees on site, which is now banned by Federal Law under the
> Pollinator's Protection Act of 2007.





> H.R. 1709:
> Pollinator Protection Act
> 110th Congress
> 2007-2008
> ...


Four Pollinator Protection bills were introduced and none passed.



> The provisions of these four bills were wrapped up into the 2008 Farm Bill, representing a massive success for pollinator conservation and crop security. Congress recognized that pollinators are a vital component of our agricultural landscapes. Specifically, the 2008 Farm Bill:
> 
> •	makes pollinators and their habitat a priority for every USDA land manager and conservationist;
> •	identifies pollinator habitat as a priority when determining payments under the Environmental Quality Incentives Program;
> ...


Not one word about killing of honey bees there.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Tennessee state apiarist.....no comment ....well one got the job bercause of politics in my opinion


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## PoDuck (Mar 29, 2010)

peterloringborst said:


> How can something be illegal to some extent? Under what justification would honey bees be protected? They are commercial farm animals. Also, despite the news reports, the latest count for the USA is well over two million hives, same as it has been for the current decade.


When I said to some extent, it meant it could be state or federal law. Bees can be protected for any reason that is reasonable. Unless it is a liberty right that is violated, the government only has to have a rational basis for their reasoning in creating a law. In other words, there doesn't need to be a compelling interest.


> If it were against some law to kill bees, who would enforce it? What agency would press charges against a hive killer? Unless it was destruction of private property without permission. I don't see what possible law would be broken if somebody killed a hive in their attic or whatnot.


The police would be required to enforce a state law, just as any other law. Why is that so tough to understand?

Anyway, I know I didn't cite a law, and it may be a rumor, but I have seen specifically that it is illegal to kill bees in Tennessee. Whether it is or not can be questioned, but whether or not it could have been made a law and who would enforce it is rather obvious.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

PoDuck said:


> have seen specifically that it is illegal to kill bees in Tennessee.


In the real world, you have to show where you saw it. Just saying you saw it, doesn't cut it. Sorry


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

It's a good thing it's probably not a real law. Beekeepers seem to knock off more bees than any exterminator.

"But your honor, I didn't mean to chill the brood."


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

> Cheaper still is the do it yourself route.


If the bees have larva, honey, pollen and bee-bread in the comb, simply spraying the hive with an insecticide can be a very expensive proposition because only a few things can happen at that point... 

1. The brood and food rots in place, gets moldy, stinks up the house, possibly huge cost to the homeowner when their house is diagnosed with mold problems by a home inspector while trying to sell... VERY expensive, and not very pleasant either.

2. Other pests will find the brood and food after the insecticide has worn off and then the homeowner will have other pest problems and will still have to hire someone to deal with the pests.

3. The comb melts on a hot summer day and honey eventually seeps into the drywall and floor and destroys them. 

Regardless of whether the bees are removed alive or dead, the comb with the brood and food needs to be removed to prevent further structural damage, even if that means having to cut into and replace a section of drywall. This is seldom something that individual homeowners would do themselves, and most opt to have someone else remove it and make structural repairs.

PS - I am unaware of any laws in TN that protect honey bee swarms, feral hives, or unwanted hives in general.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Many states have rules intended to reduce the hazard of insecticide applications to bees. 


> Owners of bees (apiaries) in Iowa are protected by Iowa law. To be protected, the Administrative Code of Iowa, Chapter 25, section 45.31(206), says bee owners must register with the Iowa Department of Land Stewardship (IDALS) by April 1st of each year. This information is then available to local pesticide applicators.
> 
> Prior to applying any pesticide that is toxic to bees, the applicator must check with the FSA office or IDALS to determine the location of hives. If the field is within a two-mile radius of any registered apiary, the applicator must notify the owner or the owner’s family at least 24 hours and no more than 72 hours prior to application.
> 
> By Linda Nelson, Dallas County Extension Education Director


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

The State of Utah recommends homeowners call Licensed Pest Control Operators in situations where bees invade homes.


> *If I have bees in my yard/house what should I do? *
> 
> Most “bees”, wasps, hornets, mud daubers, etc. are non-aggressive unless disturbed. The AHB can be defensive and aggressive when it feels it’s nest, home, resources are in danger, much like any homeowner. If the homeowner is in doubt or is challenged by unidentified stinging insects they should call a licensed Pest Control Operator (PCO) for eradication and removal. The Department can provide names of PCO’s in your area if needed.
> 
> ...


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## tnmx (Jan 23, 2009)

Mike Studer is the Tennessee state apiarist. I took a class where he spoke. He was very specific about it being illegal in the state of TN to destroy a colony of Honey Bees. There is a fine for the offense of up to $500.00


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> If bees are an immediate threat to health and safety:
> 
> To destroy bee that are an immediate threat, a pest control company may be call, especially if the location puts the homeowner at risk. If the wall has been dismantled and the comb and bees are exposed, a detergent solution can be sprayed on the bees to kill them. The solution contains one cup liquid dishwashing detergent per gallon of water. Detergent solutions are effective only when sprayed directly onto the bees.
> 
> ...


Honey Bees in a Wall! What Can Be Done?
By John A. Skinner, Tennessee State Apiarist

THE UNIVERSITY OF TENNESSEE AGRICULTURAL SERVICE PB 1508

http://bees.tennessee.edu/pubs.htm


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## USCBeeMan (Feb 7, 2009)

A law was past last year. *I know John Skinner.* He is not the TN State Apircurist who I also know. John is the big bee for UT. I get calls to remove bees because the pest control companies refuse to kill them. They mention the law and tell the home owner to call a beekeeper. Some tell them to kill the bees themselves but they will not kill the bees.

Now Peter I know that you know everything about bees. But I am telling you what happens here. So what happens here is reality, regardless of what you say or what you pull off the 'Net from UT.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

tnmx said:


> Mike Studer is the Tennessee state apiarist. I took a class where he spoke. He was very specific about it being illegal in the state of TN to destroy a colony of Honey Bees. There is a fine for the offense of up to $500.00


Do you happen to remember the specific code? It kinda sounds to me like he was talking more about if a hive is on your property and someone else destroys it... that would be vandalism... and yes there would be a fine for that. I could be wrong, but that's what it sounds like to me... I guess someone needs to just email Mike to find out.


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## USCBeeMan (Feb 7, 2009)

peterloringborst said:


> Honey Bees in a Wall! What Can Be Done?
> By John A. Skinner, Tennessee State Apiarist
> 
> THE UNIVERSITY OF TENNESSEE AGRICULTURAL SERVICE PB 1508
> ...


 
*This pub was published before the law was passed last year.* In fact, *you cannot even order any of the pubs that John Skinner wrote.* I tried as our beek assoc. was putting on a beginners course a few weeks ago. You can print the pubs on the Net but there are no pubs available at UT publishing. *Out of stock.* Will not be published again unless Skinner authorizes publication. (I would assume with updates.)


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

I know at least in Nebraska, and I expect in other places, many exterminators will tell people it is illegal to kill honey bees because they don't want the headache of dealing with both the social repercussions and the liability (perceived perhaps).

None the less, it is not illegal in Nebraska to kill honeybees, yet the management of national pest control companies give that story to their employees to avoid dealing with honeybees.



> Most knowledgeable beekeepers start at $300 and it goes up depending on the complexity of the job.


While many beekeepers will charge that much, it is not a matter of being a "knowledgeable beekeeper" to establish one's removal rates.

It is a matter of knowing your market, what it will tolerate and what you as the individual are wanting to accomplish in terms of expecting revenue.

A "knowledgeable" person who works with bees really isn't so judgmental.

Do what you find to work best for your local situation, not the situation of people many miles away.

Big Bear


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

USCBeeMan said:


> A law was past last year. *I know John Skinner.* He is not the TN State Apircurist who I also know. John is the big bee for UT. I get calls to remove bees because the pest control companies refuse to kill them. They mention the law and tell the home owner to call a beekeeper. Some tell them to kill the bees themselves but they will not kill the bees.
> 
> Now Peter I know that you know everything about bees. But I am telling you what happens here. So what happens here is reality, regardless of what you say or what you pull off the 'Net from UT.


I do not know everything and I am the first to admit it. Explain this



> Tennessee State Apiculturist, Dr. John Skinner, The University of Tennessee, Entomology & Plant Pathology Dept, 205 Ellington PSB, 2431 Joe Johnson Dr, Knoxville, TN 37996-4560, (865) 974-7138. E-Mail: [email protected].
> 
> The State Apiculturist’s areas of responsibility include education, research, extension and treatment recommendations. Contact John Skinner for information and materials related to education, extension, research and treatment recommendations.
> 
> ...


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

USCBeeMan said:


> *This pub was published before the law was passed last year.* In fact, *you cannot even order any of the pubs that John Skinner wrote.* I tried as our beek assoc. was putting on a beginners course a few weeks ago. You can print the pubs on the Net but there are no pubs available at UT publishing. *Out of stock.* Will not be published again unless Skinner authorizes publication. (I would assume with updates.)


I have it here in front of me. Where do you think I got the text? If the information is not valid why is the University still making it available to the general public?


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Right here is a cut from a Tennessee Publication, currently available. So far nobody has provided any evidence that these publications are not valid and current.



> Once an [AFB] infestation is detected, the bees in the affected colony should be killed (one way to do this is by spraying ether starter fluid in the entrance). Plug the entrance, then burn the entire colony in a hole in the ground. After burning, the remains should be covered with soil. Tools coming into contact with the hive should be sterilized.
> 
> *Beekeeping in Tennessee*
> 
> ...


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Here is a cut from an Ohio Publication


> Removal from Walls
> 
> An established honey bee colony will sometimes divide itself, and one or more swarms will leave the hive. The new swarm may cluster for a while on a tree limb or bush near the old hive while scout bees search for a suitable place to establish a new home. Usually scout bees find a hollow tree, but occasionally they will choose the wall voids of a home. Unfortunately, bees may nest in the wall or attic some distance from where they enter the wall.
> 
> ...


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## rkr (Oct 30, 2008)

peterloringborst said:


> I do not know everything and I am the first to admit it.


Could have fooled me!!!!:scratch:

Pete, maybe it's not what you say but the heavy handed, disrespectful, condescending way you say it.
... just food for though.

No one likes to be talked down to regardless of the facts/truth.

RKR


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

This is from the Tennessee Department of Agriculture



> The Apiary Act of 1995 includes a section on registration of apiaries. In the Apiary Act, new apiaries are required to be registered with the Tennessee Department of Agriculture.
> 
> * Registering your bees helps to protect your bees and your neighbor’s bees in the case of an American Foulbrood (AFB) outbreak or other regulatory pest.
> 
> ...


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

rkr said:


> Could have fooled me!!!!:scratch:
> 
> Pete, maybe it's not what you say but the heavy handed, disrespectful, condescending way you say it.
> ... just food for though.
> ...


Look, for years people have been saying "bees are protected by federal law" or "in my state bees are protected" etc. When I ask for proof, nobody has it. I looked for it myself and I cannot find anywhere in the wild world that honey bees are protected by any laws. 

They are not an endangered species, they are domestic animals. They are not native to the US. And a package of bees is worth about $90 so you can't justify spending $300 to remove them from a wall. 

People are free to say whatever they like at BeeSource, I guess. But if I see people talking utter nonsense, what would you suggest I do?


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## rkr (Oct 30, 2008)

peterloringborst said:


> But if I see people talking utter nonsense, what would you suggest I do?


Grace, 

Calm, caring correction

Teach without offending, when the issue at hand is not life or death in nature.

Do your best not to exasperate your student, allow them to seek out information with guidance, not with strong rebuke.

Remember the fact that at one point in *your* life..... you were as ignorant as you believe they(we/I) are. 

RKR


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> Teach without offending when the issue at hand is not life or death in nature.


Yes, well, it is life or death for these particular bees ; )

But, hey, I thought you guys were beekeepers!

If you can't stand the stinging, stay the heck outa the hive ...


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

peterloringborst said:


> People are free to say whatever they like at BeeSource, I guess. But if I see people talking utter nonsense, what would you suggest I do?


I would suggest that you continue to ask members to defend their statements with solid proof.


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

FLAME WAR! :lookout:

Hey, don't blame me if you consider it "passing on bad information" or "misinformed" if the person that told me this doesn't know his J.O.B.


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

Well, it appears that peter has all the answers. Peter, go read the pollinators act, then come back and give us some more information.


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

Actually the pollinators act only provides funding, absolutely nothing in it about making it illegal to kill bees, and yes, I HAVE read it.


On a side note though, I have to agree with the others. You can't just brute force "make" someone believe something. Calm and slight corrections are what it takes to change things. Look up the butterfly effect.  And when 20 out of 48 posts crossed 5 pages in a thread are all yours, you might not be showing calm and slight correction. Just my two cents.


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## rkr (Oct 30, 2008)

Batman said:


> FLAME WAR! :lookout:


Now, Now to be clear I am not doubting Pete's point, or saying he should not challenge people to prove their points with facts. I am pointing out his method is rather harsh. There are a lot of new Beeks here including myself. No one likes to be talked down to. There are more civil ways to make his point; that's all nothing more nothing less.

RKR


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## daknoodle (Dec 8, 2005)

I totally agree with rkr there. By all means, ask people for the proof. Though if they can't provide it, that should really be enough said.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

peterloringborst said:


> They are not an endangered species, they are domestic animals. They are not native to the US. And a package of bees is worth about $90 so you can't justify spending $300 to remove them from a wall.


Well the building owner certainly can justify it... they have to remove that brood and food before it creates an even bigger problem for them than the live bees did... and I don't know of any beekeepers that would pay to do a cutout in the first place.


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## USCBeeMan (Feb 7, 2009)

Believe this is still America. Land of opportunity. Land of supply and demand.


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

When I sought information on the pollinators act, what I found was that basically, it was unlawful to destroy honey bees unless they were aggressive or they were in a structure, such as a wall. It did not pass in 2007, but was added in an amendment in 2008. It also appeared that like many laws, they passed it, without providing any money for enforcement. In Texas, information on all this is hard to find, but I did find that to deal with bees in structures, you are suppose to have a license from the state. Anyone can collect a swarm out in the open.


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## WPG (Mar 28, 2010)

Peter, 
You seem to have access to a lot of info, but it's not all up to date.

The Iowa Bee Law has been changed. Our new(in 2008) State Apiarist along with many beekeepers as well as commercial applicators hashed out the new regs.

It is not totally satisfactory for us beekeepers, both sides compromised, but it seems to be easier for the applicators to follow.
Few bees are flying before April 1st here and there is no need for aerial spraying of crops before then. Hives need to be registered each year and that year starts April 1st but ends December 31st. You can add to the list each month, but it doesn't show up on the list until the first of the next month. The registration requires co-ordinates for each apiary and then the commercial applicator can't spray within one mile of the bees during the hours of 8am and 6pm. No notification needed, no missed calls, no more getting home at 10pm finding a message and having to go out again to a distant apiary to close them up or move them. If rule not followed and bees are killed money is paid.

Of course all the fine details are available on the state web-site.

To the general public if its not a fly, butterfly or moth its a bee.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Re Iowa bee laws. Iowa states that the beekeeper *MUST* kill hives infected with AFB


> *Treatment for AFB Infected Colonies *
> 
> Disease control is primarily the responsibility of each beekeeper, who must learn the symptoms of the diseases and inspect the colonies carefully for the presence of American foulbrood. The *ONLY* treatment for AFB infected colonies is *destruction* of all Bees and Comb. Woodenware may be disinfected, but the beekeeper should evaluate the costs / benefits / risks involved with disinfection rather than destruction of woodenware
> 
> ...


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Chick said:


> When I sought information on the pollinators act, what I found was that basically, it was unlawful to destroy honey bees unless they were aggressive or they were in a structure, such as a wall.


This is not in the act. There is nothing about killing honey bee colonies. It is primarily aimed at protecting native bees and their habitat. So far nobody has provided any evidence that killing honey bees is illegal. 

Honey bees are domestic livestock and are not protected by laws, except in regards to being damaged by spraying. Most states require that the beekeeper be notified if spraying is to take place. 

If the beekeeper chooses not to move the hives, then the sprayer would not be held liable if the bees were damaged. The purpose of notification is to protect both the beekeeper and the grower.

If a beekeeper puts his/her bees in jeopardy, then the fault rests upon the beekeeper. It is a bad idea to keep honey bees in an area where spraying is routine, in any case.


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## rkr (Oct 30, 2008)

peterloringborst said:


> Iowa states that the beekeeper *MUST* kill hives infected with AFB


Pete, It's OK to say, "Gee, I was wrong." 
Grasping at straws to prove your point is not any better than not proving it with facts (which you hate)and does not do much for your credibility. 

The discussion point is not "are diseased bees protected" it is "are or should healthy, feral or managed bees be protected".


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Nobody has yet shown any evidence of feral colonies being protected by any law, nor has any evidence been presented that there are any laws against killing colonies under any circumstances, except as a result of insecticide drift.

How is it grasping at straws to say you guys are making this stuff up and you can't show one single example of one single law that makes it illegal to kill bees under any circumstances, other than the exception I mentioned?

On the other hand, I have shown over and over that killing bees is recommended by many states when they are in houses, are a nuisance, and especially if suspected to be Africanized.

These same states even go so far as to provide detailed instructions on what insecticides to use, and how to ensure that the job is properly and correctly done.

Meanwhile, you guys keep saying that it is illegal to kill bees because of the Pollinator Protection Act, or because some bureaucrat in California thinks so, or because somebody thought Mike Studer said so. Did anyone call him and ask him?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I'd like to know what was learned about the original posting...

Were the bees killed or not.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

peterloringborst said:


> And a package of bees is worth about $90 so you can't justify spending $300 to remove them from a wall.


There are many reasons to spend (or charge) $300 or more to have bees removed from a wall. A few:

1. You desire the genetics
2. You no longer want the bees living in the walls of your house causing damage
3. Their flight path interferes with arriving guests
4. You have them removed simply because PB says you can't justify it


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## USCBeeMan (Feb 7, 2009)

*"I'd like to know what was learned about the original posting..."*

I haven't been back to look at the tree any more since I started the thread. I had planned to go check it out today but it's raining.

*"or because somebody thought Mike Studer said so. Did anyone call him and ask him?"*

I sent an email to Mike yesterday evening. I will also call him Monday.

It's a shame that we cannot have a dialog on a subject as important to us beeks as killing off bee colonies and swarms. To me original start of this thread:

Bees were healthy and active in the tree and bringing in pollen.
Contracted lawn crew were not cutting grass near the tree.
Bees no longer in tree. No activities for days.
Lawn crew trimmed "right up to the edge of the tree" first day bees were noticed to be missing.
Worker for company who owns the property noticed missing bees and grass trimmed up to the tree.
Worker stated without me saying anything she felt that lawn crew killed the bees.
Company that owns the property did not want the bees to be killed and were willing to compensate me for my time and efforts to remove the bees.
No reason for the bees to abscond in late March, bringing in pollen, and plenty of resources.
Bees had been in the tree for at least 3 years.
See #8.
I live less than .5 miles from the tree. I haven't had any bees abscond.
But the bottom line is that someone killed the bees. It wasn't CCD, mites, SHBs. The property owner wanted the bees saved. I am upset that the bees were killed. I wanted the bees and yes it was nice to be compensated for the removal. The whole scenerio stinks. 

I plan on talking with the owners of the property about the missing bees. I also am a startup lawncare business with very little business. In fact the bee removal income is most of the income from this business. I plan on asking them to terminate the contract with the current lawncare company and give it to me or another company.

Now don't even go there that I would kill bees to get some lawn care business. That's not in my DNA. Anyone who knows me knows that isn't an option.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Barry said:


> There are many reasons to spend (or charge) $300 or more to have bees removed from a wall. A few:
> 
> 1. You desire the genetics
> 2. You no longer want the bees living in the walls of your house causing damage
> 3. Their flight path interferes with arriving guests


These are excellent reasons for having bees removed from the house. My point, which was hastily put, was that the bees are not worth $300. The $300 would go toward the work of removing them, the bees having value depending on whether or not they are diseased, or are of some desirable strain, following what Barry said. 

I do not feel the homeowner should be brow beaten into paying $300 to $500 for bee removal which in many cases could be taken care of for far less money. I have killed hornets in my own house with a half a can of non-toxic detergent based aerosol spray with no side effects, whatever. Cost five bucks.

I admire people willing to go to the trouble of saving honey bees that have had the misfortune of moving into people's houses. I have done that work, and I charge a minimum of $300. But I understand why some people would opt for a licensed Pest Control service, since they charge far less than that.

Telling the homeowner that it is illegal to kill honey bees because they are protected species under some non-existent state, federal, or interplanetary laws is deceitful, unscrupulous, and false. 

You now know that honey bees are not an endangered species. I have done my part to put an end to this rumor and if it has all been for nothing, oh well.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> It's a shame that we cannot have a dialog on a subject as important to us beeks as killing off bee colonies and swarms.


There, you hit the nail on the head. We should be having a discussion on how to get laws passed to protect honey bees, and how to revoke laws restricting beekeeping. 

But it seems that most people around here _think_ it's already a done deal.

I worked eagerly behind the scenes to get the law changed in NY city and I have helped repeal mandatory registration of bee hives in NY State. I believe that beekeeping can be a self-regulated industry. 

But as I said earlier this week, there are more than two million hives in the USA and the mood right now is to support and preserve beekeeping. It is foolish to propagate rumors and falsehoods, when the public clamors for better information. 

Bees and beekeepers need and deserve all the support they can get. Bees in walls and Africanized bees are an entirely separate issue. Africanized bees are illegal in most jurisdictions, and bees in walls can be extremely dangerous to allergic individuals. So, can be a matter of life and death after all.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

While we are over here talking about protecting bees, there is another thread where folks are talking about all the ways to kill carpenter bees

see: "carpenter bees harrassing my hives"

Carpenter bees are native bees, and deserve protection, as _ they are endangered_. I have been trying to persuade my mother in law to leave them alone for decades. If they bore in the fascia boards of your house, you need to either use a much tougher paint, or put up aluminum flashing.

Please don't kill wild bees!


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

peterloringborst said:


> Carpenter bees are native bees, and deserve protection, as _they are endangered_. Please don't kill wild bees!


I see I need to get Jonesy to stop smackin them with a badminton raquet!


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Yeah, I have a soft spot for the big lugs ...


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Folks really should take the time to read the Tennessee Apiary Act of 1995. Also, it is helpful to have a fundamental knowledge of how legislation is applied. For example, the Tennessee Apiary Act of 1995 defines 'feral bees' and a bee 'colony' as entirely different things. (And in law, you ignore common definitions, and only use the legal definition provided.)
http://longcreekapiaries.com/beelaw1.html

With that said, there are sections which refer to killing honeybees.

SECTION 11 (b) It shall be unlawful for any person in the state who participates in or conducts a deliberate act that exposes free flying honeybees to a known source of any regulated bee disease or pest or to any substance commonly known to kill bees. This section does not apply to farmers, gardeners, or others who are using legally registered pesticides in strict compliance with the label instructions. The deliberate acts that are prohibited include, but are not limited to, the following:

(1) Placing in a location that is accessible to free-flying honeybees any beeswax combs, beekeeping equipment, honey, or other substance known to be attractive to honeybees and capable of transmitting bee diseases or pests and known to have been in contact with or associated with sources of regulated bee diseases or pests.

(2) Placing in a location that is accessible to free-flying honeybees any honey, sugar syrup, corn syrup, or other substance known to be attractive to bees and to which some pesticide or other substance harmful to honeybees has been added, or

(3) Producing, making, releasing, or otherwise causing any spray, smoke, fog, dust, or other substances to enter a beehive for the purpose of killing the bees therein *except as requested by the owner of the bees or as required by a state regulatory order*. 

SECTION 18. All bees and beehives confiscated by the state apiarist as allowed by this act shall be destroyed by burning if the state apiarist determines that the confiscated property is infested with a regulated disease or pest to such an extent that it presents a significant and unacceptable threat to bees in the surrounding area. 

SECTION 15. Any person violating any of the provisions of this chapter of the rules and regulations made thereunder, or of any order or notice given pursuant thereto, or who shall forge, counterfeit, destroy, or wrongfully or fraudulently use, any certificate, permit, notice or other like document provided or impedes, hinders or other wise prevents, or attempts to prevent, the commissioner or the commissioner's duly authorized agent from performing such official's duty in connection with the provisions of this chapter, may, in a lawful proceeding pursuant to the Uniform Administrative Procedures Act, be assessed a civil penalty of not more than five hundred ($500) for each violation. 

Here are few more things that can get you bit by the $500 fine...

SECTION 6. (A) Every beekeeper owning one (1) or more colonies of bees shall register each apiary location by January 1. 1996 and every three (3) years thereafter. Upon establishment of a new apiary location, it shall be the duty of the owners or operators of such apiary(s) to register such new locations within thirty (30) days. Any person, firm, or corporation moving bees into the State of Tennessee, shall register all apiary locations within thirty (30) days from the date of the establishment of each apiary. (failure to register apiary -$500 fine)

SECTION 9. (A) No bees may be sold, offered for sale, moved, or transported, shipped or delivered within the state, unless they have been inspected by an appropriate official of the state and certified to be apparently free of infectious or contagious regulated bee diseases and pests in accordance with rules and regulations promulgated under this chapter. (transporting or moving a hive that hasn't been inspected - don't move that split you made - $500 fine)

SECTION 10 (a) If a beekeeper knows that a colony of bees has a regulated bee disease or pest, the beekeeper shall immediately report to a state apiary inspector all facts known about the bee's disease or bee's pests. (Tattle on your neighbor - their bees might have mites.)


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Peter I am completly on your side in this discussion. You have given the facts, and all you need to do is use some common sense with the facts. First, State Apiarist are appointed officials (somebodys dad, brother, uncle, you get the idea). I might add that I feel we have a good one in Ky. But advice from him is no better in most cases than a long time beek. Bees to us are sacred and need to be protected. But to the general population they are no better than hornets, wasp, and my favorite pest for pain the yellowjacket, and many more feared insects. Simply because they can and will sting when mashed or disturbed. With the arrival of the AHB it has made them even more feared. Having said all this, it is not going to happen that there is going to be a law that is enforceable. Because they cannot be a protected species until they are truly endangered. Sorry, just think about it.


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## WPG (Mar 28, 2010)

valleyman said:


> First, State Apiarist are appointed officials (somebodys dad, brother, uncle, you get the idea). I might add that I feel we have a good one in Ky.


I'm glad you have a goodone there in KY. You make it sound like they are all political appointies without any qualifications for the job.

I believe Iowa has had some of the best State Apiarists from the beginning. 
You most likely have read some of the books they wrote while you learned about honeybees. 

While the position isn't filled by the ballot box, qualified people are found.
We set guidelines, requirements in education and experience, as well as a detailed job description. Then we go look for them, interview them, and *hire* them.

This latest one actually 1st had bees when he was 12 yrs old. When he went back to school to get an advanced degree it happened to be there in KY. With all the problems bees are having I think getting an entomoligist that did his research papers on honeybees as the State Apiarist was great.

I'm sorry to hear you guys don't always get the same quality of help there in New York and Kentucky.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> (3) Producing, making, releasing, or otherwise causing any spray, smoke, fog, dust, or other substances to enter a beehive for the purpose of killing the bees therein *except as requested by the owner of the bees or as required by a state regulatory order.*


This is exactly what I said. The state can condemn and kill bees. Anyone who owns bees can kill their own bees. If a home owner or renter has bees on their property, the bees legally belong to them. In fact, if a swarm emerges from my hive and leaves my property it is no longer owned by me and belongs to whose property it lands upon.

Bees are protected in the sense that if your bees are poisoned by someone else, they have destroyed your property. That is what is being covered by this law. It provides penalty if someone willfully or ignorantly exposes your bees to poison. These laws are not designed to preserve bees, but to protect the rights of the beekeeper.

You are within your rights to keep bees, but even the state of Tennessee seems intent on regulating the beekeeper as much as the pesticide operator. In NY nobody is required to report the movement of hives. Until two years ago hive registration was not mandatory unless one wanted a permit to go to another state. Mandatory registration is being repealed, all that remains now is the governor's signature.

Feral bees have always been discouraged by inspectors as one of the chief sources of disease. In most states it is illegal to keep bees in hives that don't have movable frames so this would include hollow trees, attics, etc. Whether feral bees are a serious source of disease or a legitimate source of diverse genetics is another matter.

I have been accused off list of being a bee hater, or being callous and unconcerned about honey bees. Nothing could be further from the truth. When an inspector destroys a hive of bees, his or her chief concern is the *protection* of the other colonies in the neighborhood. 

Let me describe what can happen with a true story. I inspected beekeeper A's hives. He and I went out to them in the spring. He brought along a cartload of supers. Within a half an hour we realized "no supers needed today, boys". Of twelve hives, a third were stone dead, half were rotten, and two were still alive. AFB. I sent the samples in to Beltsville and then we burnt the stuff up. He tried to save everything, beat up old boxes, etc. We scorched what we could and burnt the rest. 

Over the next couple of weeks I found AFB in four other apiaries, by inspecting everything within five miles of this guy. This is what bee inspectors do. No one else can do this job, because no one else knows where the hives are. 

I no longer inspect bees for NY state. I left chiefly because I thought the laws were inflexible and being enforced unfairly. Personally, I do not believe in killing colonies with a very light infection. I believe they can be treated with antibiotics, if the infection is in a very early stage, say only a few cells showing symptoms. 

If the infection is advanced, some people will destroy all the brood and medicate. Others prefer to destroy hives with any sign of AFB, on the assumption that these are susceptible bees and not worth having.

I promote sustainable beekeeping, not disposable beekeeping. Bees are worthy of our respect and *protection*. The best protection for honey bees is a strong educated bee industry. Beekeeping won't survive if it drifts into the crackpot fringe. The general public has long regarded beekeepers as a bit nutty, which simply isn't so.

Beekeepers, good ones, are knowledgeable about climate, weather, ecology, native plants, native pollinators, the scientific work done on bees, the legal restrictions and rights of beekeepers, and the general public. Bees can be a lot of fun, a lot of very hard work, and are extremely dangerous at times. 

If you deny the_ need to know_ any of this, you are practicing _willful ignorance_, may God help you.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

peterloringborst said:


> Bees are protected in the sense that if your bees are poisoned by someone else, they have destroyed your property. That is what is being covered by this law. It provides penalty if someone willfully or ignorantly exposes your bees to poison. These laws are not designed to preserve bees, but to protect the rights of the beekeeper.


Not sure I agree with this. Pesticides and herbicides have labels that say you shall not apply when bees are present on the bloom. That's a law protecting the bees from injury and death and if you do apply when bees are present, you face prosecution. The label is not protecting MY bees, it's protecting all bees.


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

Holy cow! I finally got to the last post.

There are several different sides that I see.

1. I can agree that as far as Virginia and US law I have not read anything to lead me to believe that it is illegal to kill a feral colony of honey bees.

That said I remove colonies all the time. Several a week sometimes and at least one a week from April to October. Part of the removal is to ensure there is no repeat infestation. Most of my work is from referals from exterminators. I think they tell home owners they can't kill them because of said "Law" but the problem is what is left after the killing is done. The exterminators do not want to deal with a home owner who has a rotten smelling, honey dripping mess on their hands. "Pete" this is why a home owner pays me $300 instead of paying $125 to kill them. Because after the killing is done, if it does kill them the colony still has to be removed. So either way a hole has to be cut and the mess has to be cleaned up. I think home owners realize this and see it as better to remove them live.

I think maybe its easier to pass the buck to me than explain to the homeowner and if it helps to save a colony and gets me a job great.

Now, as for the use of pesticides. It sounds to me like the lawn company may have broken the law. Although the facts have not been proven to brought to light in this case. In Virginia only licensed pest control agents or property owners can apply pest control chemicals and only IAW the labeled instructions.

If you all would like to keep going on and on with Pete on whether its legal to exterminate honey bees have a nice day.

Pete, you keep up the good fight. To me if Joe Q. public thinks its illegal to kill honey bees then good. I don't see the harm in saving a few feral colonies. I think over the years I've seen both sides. The one I like the most is a removal that goes well with a happy home owner and then a colony that turns out to be a great addition to an apiary where they belong. 

Next to that I like the return calls from the home owners who have a nasty smelling house with a caved in ceiling and honey running down the walls. Seems the $125 isn't so cheap after all.

One last thing. I don't remove dead bees.


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Barry writes:



> The label is not protecting MY bees, it's protecting all bees.


Fair enough, bees in general _are_ protected by such a law. By the way, this is the law of Tenn. we are talking about, not a federal law. But my contention is that the _intent_ of the law is to protect the bees _owned by an individual_, not bees in general. 

A real pollinator protection act would cover _all_ pollinators, such as bees, wasps, flies, bats, hummingbirds, etc. The problem with a law that applies to individuals only, is that it cannot be used to sue in general. If there is no injured party, there is no plaintiff to file suit.

I can not sue because a farmer killed bees when he sprayed his orchard _IF_ I don't own any bees. That's why there are laws protecting individual species. Honey bees are not _endangered_, but a beekeeper has a right to have his bees protected from spray. 

That is, unless he knowingly places them near an orchard that is to be sprayed, and the grower has given notice. Then the beekeeper needs to move them, or suffer the consequences. I don't know how the Tenn. law would work in such a situation, but generally courts side with the grower since the hives are "portable", and the grower has a right to protect his crops against pests and economic loss.

This is one reason why I suggest keeping bees away from agricultural or suburban areas. These areas are heavily sprayed and the people doing the spraying have a legitimate economic reason for doing this work. We may not agree to the necessity of it, but so long as they are follow the label and the law, they are within their rights to use pesticides.

I had a pesticide applicator's license, issued by the State of NY. This was required of me when I worked as the Senior Apiarist at the Dyce Lab at Cornell University. Why, you ask? For several reasons. 1) I used Roundup in the bee yards to control weeds, especially along the electric fences. 2) I applied miticides to control varroa mites. I was required to keep records of all applications, amounts and locations of the hives. 3) I was called upon to advise on the use of pesticides.

A person that is called upon to advise on the use of pesticides is legally required to _know the laws_, giving only advice that is _legal and correct_, and to never recommend _off label or illegal_ practices. Using laundry soap to kill bees is off label, in some jurisdictions. In Florida, it is the recommended method of dealing with suspected African Bees (that could be any swarm in Florida, Arizona, Texas, So. Cal, etc.). 

By the way, African bee swarms are not generally vicious. They are tractable like regular swarms. After they are established and hive a hive, honey and brood to defend, then they become aggressive and hostile.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Peter the pesticide labels are EPA, federal law.

I don't think any materials are labeled for use on bees as the target species.


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

The facts around killing bees are multi convoluted and unclear, but the fact that some like to argue this point, is quite clear.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Let me play devil's advocate (briefly): what would you say if I claimed that American Beekeepers were responsible for inadvertently dispatching more bees, of different genera, than could ever be accounted for?

I think that the whole debate is more emotional than factual.

Would you admit to being a party to 'beepocalypse now'?

Pests are pests, but native species...


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## Elwood (Apr 8, 2009)

I'm with you fellers!


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

peterloringborst said:


> In fact, if a swarm emerges from my hive and leaves my property it is no longer owned by me and belongs to whose property it lands upon.


This would be something to question too. Once they bees leave your hive, are they still yours? Some people say no, some people say yes. Can you supply us with the proof? Sure they might land on a tree that is in your yard, but until they are hived, it may be a free for all. The person that walks up on you lawn to collect them might be a jerk by going to get them while they are still on your property and common sense would dictate that they should ask you first, but the only law they have truely broken is trespassing.


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## Chick (May 21, 2009)

Originally Posted by peterloringborst 
In fact, if a swarm emerges from my hive and leaves my property it is no longer owned by me and belongs to whose property it lands upon.

Can you supply proof of that "law"?


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

Chick said:


> Originally Posted by peterloringborst
> In fact, if a swarm emerges from my hive and leaves my property it is no longer owned by me and belongs to whose property it lands upon.
> 
> Can you supply proof of that "law"?


That might take some digging. But on the face of it, it seems fairly obvious. 

Once a swarm leaves your property, you no longer have any way of proving it was ever _yours_ (unless you marked the queen).

Then, once it lands on my property, you cannot access it without _my_ permission. It is essentially _my swarm_ now, unless you can prove it was yours. 

In actual practice, however, most people would welcome the beekeeper to come retrieve "his" or "her" swarm. 

However, I have captured swarms near beekeeper's yards and they are the first to admit once it leaves their apiary it is no longer "theirs".


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

> During the early development of our Eastern states the general principle of law relative to ownership of bees was adjudicated in a number of cases. The question raised and the decisions rendered are briefly as follows:
> 
> Where bees have escaped and so properly may be considered as wild bees and without any owner at the time of their discovery, it has been held that such bees in a tree belong to the owner of the soil where the tree stands. Merrills vs. Goodwin, 1 Root 209; Ferguson vs. Miller, 1 Cow. 243; 13 Am. Dec. 519; Goff vs. Kilts, 15 Wend. 550.
> 
> ...


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## peterloringborst (Jan 19, 2010)

On the killing of bees:



> Two final folk beliefs will illustrate the uneven spread of material in both parts of the continuum under survey. The killing of bees, considered a _sacrilegious act_ in parts of England, is not mentioned as such in America. On the other hand, the tabu against _counting hives_, known in certain parts of America, is not noted in English data at my disposal.


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## terri lynn (Apr 5, 2009)

chandler said:


> I think a lot of people call the whole bee/wasp family bees. My neighbor talked to me the other day about her dog getting attacked by bees while we were talking about my hive. It wasn't bees, it was hornets. She's like, eh, bees, hornets, what's the diff? She asked, so I told her. An hour later, she was sorry she asked.


:applause: :lpf:


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_This is one reason why I suggest keeping bees away from agricultural or suburban areas. _

Which leaves keeping bees....in Antarctica. I don't suggest keeping bees there.

_I had a pesticide applicator's license, issued by the State of NY. This was required of me when I worked as the Senior Apiarist at the Dyce Lab at Cornell University. Why, you ask? For several reasons. 1) I used Roundup in the bee yards to control weeds, especially along the electric fences. 2) I applied miticides to control varroa mites. I was required to keep records of all applications, amounts and locations of the hives. 3) I was called upon to advise on the use of pesticides._

:scratch: So why did you have the pesticide applicator's license? Glyphosate is not a restricted use pesticide - anyone can buy Roundup at TSC. I can buy miticides from the bee equipment sellers, which means they are not a restricted use pesticide. I'm not sure what having having an applicator's license has to do with record keeping. I don't believe an applicator's license is required to advise others on the use of pesticides (especially non-restricted use pesticides.) 

The applicator's license is required if you want to BUY restricted use pesticides. You can legally use restricted use pesticides without a license if under the supervision/direction of a license holder.


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