# Splitting and not moving new hive



## T0ADMAN

I'm pretty new and haven't done any splits, but I can repeat what I've read:

I think it works fine to do a split and not move it to a new location. As you said, though, the foragers will go back to the original hive, so you have to give an extra shake of bees into the split so that there are enough house bees to stay with the hive. I think feeding is good too, if it doesn't spark robbing. 

Take a look here: http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm in the FAQ about "How Far?"


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## Charlie B

It works doing splits into a nuc with brood frames, queen cells and nurse bees attached without moving them away to another yard so I don't see why that wouldn't work just splitting a hive in half making sure all the queen cells go together in one box with mostly nurse bees and then feed both splits.

I'm going to do it this spring along with making up nucs and see what happens. The problem I have here in SF is that it's so foggy it's really not the ideal mating weather so I've been using mated queens for a faster build up but I don't like paying for them when the bees can make there own.


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## Katharina

I didn't pick up beekeeping until I moved to the US. I remember visiting a beekeeper in Germany a long while ago, and I'm pretty sure that he put the splits right next to the old hives. Next you go to your beekeeper's meeting they all insist on moving at least a mile. How many hobby beekeeper can do that? I mean you have to find a spot. After hearing all that you sit down, you start to think, and you remember reading an article from someone who does exactly the same thing. I will be splitting my hives this year by putting the new one right next to the old one. What do I have to loose? A swarm or a split? You take your chances either way. I do not plan on buying a queen either, I want them to raise their own.


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## Katharina

Charlie B said:


> It works doing splits into a nuc with brood frames, queen cells and nurse bees attached without moving them away to another yard so I don't see why that wouldn't work just splitting a hive in half making sure all the queen cells go together in one box with mostly nurse bees and then feed both splits.
> 
> I'm going to do it this spring along with making up nucs and see what happens. The problem I have here in SF is that it's so foggy it's really not the ideal mating weather so I've been using mated queens for a faster build up but I don't like paying for them when the bees can make there own.


Hi, nice to hear from someone from San Francisco. Our club's president Tom Chester used to be in the San Francisco club before he moved up here.


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## Guest

The best thing to do would be to click on the link TOADMAN gave you to Mr. Bush's site. These types of splits are common, I do them all the time. Not only do you not need to move anything a mile away, but I prefer to take, for example, and double deep configuration, and set the top box down next to the bottom box, as close as possible. They usually are touching. I don't look for the queen, I just make sure both boxes have open brood and half of whatever honey/pollen was stored. They'll figure out the rest. Instead of finding the queen and giving an extra shake of bees to the other box, it's also normal to switch positions, so the box on the left is switched with the one on the right. You can always do this with any two hives, if one is weak, swap it with a strong one, even if for only a few days, then swap back, if you want. The returning foragers will go (and be welcomed) into any box that is where their old box was. 

How many times, and how soon, you can re-split the split really just depends on whether there are enough bees to produce good queen cells and protect the hive, cover the brood, etc...Most folks will tell you that the stronger hives will produce better emergency queens than the smaller, weaker ones.


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## Charlie B

dr.buzz said:


> the stronger hives will produce better emergency queens than the smaller, weaker ones.


Good point. I've got to start paying more attention to which hives I'm choosing to split instead of which hives are more convenient to split due to which yard they're in, etc.


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## Charlie B

Katharina said:


> Hi, nice to hear from someone from San Francisco. Our club's president Tom Chester used to be in the San Francisco club before he moved up here.


I have heard the name from our president Philip Gerrie. Say hi to him for us!


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## Steven Ogborn

I made a split/nuc last summer. I took four bars out of my top bar hive. One with eggs and small larvae. One with mostly
capped brood, and one with mixed brood with alot of pollen, and a full comb of honey with adhering bees. They raised their 
own really nice looking queen. The books tell you the OPTIMUM way to do things, that will bring the best results under 
several conditions. It doesn't mean other ways won't work, just that they're not the best ways to do it. Oh, also this nuc
was set up about 2 feet from the parent hive.


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## Acebird

There is also a paragraph on MB's site "splits" that says you face the two hives at each other so the foragers have to make a choice. So essentially you are moving both halves of the parent hive. It makes sense that the half with the queen is bound to end up with more foragers so you switch sides to even them out.

This may sound like a dumb question but how do you judge which hive has more foragers? In the spring is seems like most of the bees are small and it is not until late summer until the size of the foragers get bigger than the nurse bees.


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## JohnAllen

Acebird said:


> ... how do you judge which hive has more foragers?


Estimate how many bees per minute are leaving the hive to forage.


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## Steven Ogborn

Hi, Ace
This shows what I know. I didn't notice a size differance between worker bees. I've seen newly emerged bees that seem
smaller, and lighter colored and fuzzy. Then I thought I saw older workers that were almost bald and dark. I didn't know they
changed sizes.


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## Robert E

I have made splits side by side, just faceing the split in the opposite direction.


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## tommyt

Acebird said:


> There is also a paragraph on MB's site "splits" that says you face the two hives at each other so the foragers have to make a choice. So essentially you are moving both halves of the parent hive. It makes sense that the half with the queen is bound to end up with more foragers so you switch sides to even them out.
> 
> This may sound like a dumb question but how do you judge which hive has more foragers? In the spring is seems like most of the bees are small and it is not until late summer until the size of the foragers get bigger than the nurse bees.


What!!!


Tommyt


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## Michael B

I do requeen, queen cell, and walk away splits all the time. Sometimes I move them. It most of the time I leave them in the same bee yard.

The key is splitting from strong hives with plenty of resources to split for
. If you do a requeen or queen cell split I usually move 2 frames of mostly capped brood and a frame of honey and pollen and a foundation frame.

In awalk away I move a frame with eggs and a frame of mostly capped brood. Also give them honey and pollen.

Always move frames with adhering bees. The foragers will return to the old hive. The nurse bees stay with new hive.


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## Acebird

And the next guy will come on and say split from the weak hives. I think Michael Palmer says that.



> Estimate how many bees per minute are leaving the hive to forage.


John, I have two hives and I swear they don't use the same clock. I went back and forth last year trying to determine which hive was stronger. After a while I figured out one hive was always about an hour later then the other on when the foragers left the hive. And it seemed like it was the reverse on the way back in the evening but not quite an hour.

Now lets think about this. One hive is going to have a queen and laying brood and the other is queenless. I don't know which way it would lean but it doesn't seem as though the foraging force would be the same for the split hives.


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## Michael Bush

The two things "wrong" with taking a hive 2 miles or more away to make a split are:

1) you have to have a place 2 miles away or more to put it.
2) it's more work

Other than that it's a great idea, I guess. I've never done it.

But you do need to consider the foragers going back in your plan. Shake in extra bees in the new location, or make two new locations on each side of the old one facing it and no hive at the old location. You can even swap those in a week or less to even things out. Don't swap them in 10 to 15 days because you may confuse a returning virgin...


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## Katharina

Just saw an Austrian documentary. They have an interesting way of splitting. They take the split into a dark room for 3 days. There they will be feed in the new hive, but they cannot leave the hive. They are screened in. They say the bees loose all their memory of where the old hive was, plus they are starting to raise their new queen or you introduce a new one at that time. After 3 days you can place the hive wherever you want to and they will not go back to the old hive. Another approach, but it is time consuming, because you do have to move the hive twice. It does not have to be far. Nucs will work nicely for this approach.


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## fish_stix

We make all our splits in nuc boxes and usually just leave them in the same yard. If you give them a couple frames of capped brood and a frame of open brood plus a frame of food they'll be successful. If the frames are light on bees we shake some extra bees into the nuc. The foragers will return to the original hive, but who cares? Nurse bees are constantly evolving into foragers so you'll have more foragers quickly. We give them a queen cell but if you give them a frame with eggs and young larva they'll make a queen immediately. Just make sure they have plenty of honey and pollen so they have resources to feed the queen cells. Some folks/beekeepers can complicate the construction of a mud pie if given time to think about it!


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## jim lyon

We move all our nucs either in the evening or early the next morning. We put them in a location with no hives, let them fly for a day and then put cells in on the second day and even up as needed. This allows them a queenless period to start their own cell and allows them to settle into a new location. More work? Most definitely but we have found that almost without fail they "catch" better than if left in the original location. Perhaps the acceptance is better simply because we are able to even them up. There is a size that seems to accept cells well too big and they seem to get a mind of their own, too small and they cant properly cover their brood and are prone to robbing.


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## fish_stix

Yes Jim; but moving splits is easy for you and me with plenty of other locations, not an option for some others as stated above. Just trying to dispell the notion that they have to be moved away from the yard to work well.


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## Acebird

I would like a little more dimensional term than too big and too small if you would be so kind.


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## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> I would like a little more dimensional term than too big and too small if you would be so kind.


Are you building a mud pie?


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## Acebird

You looking for a piece?


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## hilreal

Thinking of doing splits and taking the old queen and frames of capped brood into the nuc and leaving the old strong hive to raise the new queen. Basically creating a swarm. This should give the old hive a broodless break to reduce mite load and allow the girls to concentrate on collecting nectar.


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## jim lyon

Acebird said:


> I would like a little more dimensional term than too big and too small if you would be so kind.


Yeah I guess that was kind of vague. In a full sized 10 frame deep box we like to have 3 frames of brood with at least that much bee cover, preferably 4 frames of bees. Smaller sized boxes can do well made up a bit smaller, a 4 or 5 frame nuc box is probably fine with just 2 frames of bees and brood. One frame of bees and brood is pretty tough to make work because there is essentially no inside frames and it takes more than half as many bees as a two frame nuc. That is when you probably need to be using a split medium or some such type of smaller box. The bees are really the key component, you can get by with one frame of brood but for the best chance of "second catch" success it should have at least some open larvae on it. Just remember that having too few bees to cover your brood is essentially throwing away your brood.


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## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> You looking for a piece?


Only if you can figure out how to slice into 13 equal pieces...


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## Acebird

Not a problem ... Piece of cake, I mean pie.

Thanks Jim.


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## grozzie2

Acebird said:


> And the next guy will come on and say split from the weak hives. I think Michael Palmer says that.


If you watch his video, indeed he does say that, and immediately followed by 'introduce a queen from stock that is doing well', so he is essentially using the weak hives as a supply of bees to get potentially stronger queens started, and not letting the weaker ones raise new queens on thier own after splitting. In the video, he makes the weak hive into 4 nucs, but queens the nucs from strong stock.

This is quite different from a split where you just leave them to raise a queen after splitting.


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## fish_stix

Following up what Jim said, we use 5 frame nucs, and give them 2 frames of capped brood with the bees on the frame and a frame of open brood which usually has a ton of nurse bees due to the nurse bees feeding the brood. Add a frame of honey and pollen and our 5th frame is normally an empty drawn comb, but could be another frame of honey/pollen. We drop in the queen cell a few hours later or wait until the next morning; don't give them time to start their own cells. You have to remember that hives are not static; the capped brood will be emerging over the next 7-8 days and boosting the population. By the time the queen mates we usually have a fairly booming nuc, but if necessary we add more capped/emerging brood to keep them strong until the new queens brood starts emerging. There's no rocket science involved in making splits, and nothing involved that a new beek can't do. BTW, other than the frame or two of honey we give them we don't feed the splits, no need to.


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## gunter62

I made up a couple of nucs last summer around the 1st of July. Being just a bit lazy, I set them on top of the hives they came from and turned the entrances opposite. They have done just fine.


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## Vance G

Gunter I often put splits over a strong hive thats cover is the screened bottom of the double 5 frame nucs above. Works great. If there is drifting you shake in some nurse bees from a strong donor hive. When the splits are established and it warms up, I move them.


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## CoyoteMoss

fish_stix said:


> Some folks/beekeepers can complicate the construction of a mud pie if given time to think about it!


Still laughing.. :applause: Now this sure is the truth! Someone make this a "sticky" note/topic.


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## DonShackelford

Vance mentions shaking nurse bees from a strong colony to a weak nuc. If this works without causing issues, would it not follow that an entire frame of brood with bees can be transferred the same way, or for that matter, that nucs could be made from several hives by simply picking and combining brood frames with bees all at once? It would sure make nuc building easier if this works. Anyone tried this?


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## windfall

I have not, but I see reference to folks doing it all the time. They just warn you to watch out for accidental transfer of the queen.


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## Acebird

grozzie2 said:


> In the video, he makes the weak hive into 4 nucs, but queens the nucs from strong stock.


Ah, thanks. I missed that detail.
But I am still thinking about other expert opinions that say the quality of the queen is dependant on how it is feed not on the egg she came from. If a hive was strong and you split it, it is now weak or weaker. If the resources are there (bees and food) why would it matter if the queen was raised from the weaker hive?


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## windfall

I have not heard anyone say that quality of the queen is determined by feed alone and not the egg. I think most everyone acknowledges the importance of genetics as well as development and mating all factoring into the final queen quality.


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## rkereid

Acebird said:


> And the next guy will come on and say split from the weak hives. I think Michael Palmer says that.


Yes, but MP's weak hives are really just his slightly less than average hives. I believe he does many of these after the flow has been going for a little bit. In both cases they are not "weak", just not high performers. Consequently there are still plenty of bees to do strong splits.

Edit- yeah he does use his own queens, so it's a bit different than a walkaway split.


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## rkereid

DonShackelford said:


> Vance mentions shaking nurse bees from a strong colony to a weak nuc. If this works without causing issues, would it not follow that an entire frame of brood with bees can be transferred the same way, or for that matter, that nucs could be made from several hives by simply picking and combining brood frames with bees all at once? It would sure make nuc building easier if this works. Anyone tried this?


Many beekeepers do this. I often make up my splits, nucs, and mating nucs using these methods. Nurse bees are generally accepting of being combined with other nurse bees.


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## Acebird

windfall said:


> I think most everyone acknowledges the importance of genetics as well as development and mating all factoring into the final queen quality.


Genetics is not so easy for the backyard beek to put his finger on. Just because a colony doesn't produce as much honey as the one next to it doesn't mean the queen has bad genetics. Maybe next year it will be a banner year. Maybe the colony has better survivability instincts. Who knows. But a queen that was not feed well will not be as healthy as one that was regardless of the genetics. Don't some people feel an emergency queen is not as good because of that?


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## windfall

Agreed. No matter how good your genetics a poorly nourished larva would seem at a disadvantage. I have heard the concerns over e-queens but do not have experience to speak to that, although I think the greater concern I have read is the age of the larva when chosen (if no eggs available) and not necessarily the available feed. You can get a e-queen in a strong well stocked hive.

Selecting traits to propagate in any species is a crap shoot, especially for the hobbyist. As you point out you may well unknowingly sacrifice desirable traits that are not showing under the conditions during selection. But unless you are willing to go "random", the best you can do is select from those genetics that seem to demonstrate what you want. For most, a large strong productive colony would seems a good indicator.

The pros obviously have the numbers, experience, and time to make a more educated decision.


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## Charlie B

I've actually combined hives, (the queenless on top) without newspaper only because I couldn't find any to use. They were more confused than anything else, no problems. I've also taken brood frames with nurse bees on and have just placed them into a weaker hives
with no problems. I didn't know you weren't suppose to do that. (Of course you make sure the queen is not tagging along).


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## Acebird

windfall said:


> For most, a large strong productive colony would seems a good indicator.


In the commercial aspect but in the hobbyist aspect survivability might be more desirable. It is for me anyways. So what if the hive produces less honey, just add another hive.


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## Michael Bush

>for that matter, that nucs could be made from several hives by simply picking and combining brood frames with bees all at once?

I try to get them from at least three different hives if doing this as the added confusion helps with them not taking sides.


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## fish_stix

I've made thousands of nucs and often use brood frames from a couple/three or four different hives. They DO NOT fight! Maybe it's a case of confusion, don't know. Fighting occurs due to robbing, but not when introducing frames of bees and brood into another hive. We also often boost weak hives by transferring frames of brood with bees to the weak hive. If fighting was normal when making splits, how the heck would you ever make an increase? If fighting was normal why do we get drifting, with tons of bees from many separate hives occupying the favored end spot? Old wives tale, easily dismissed by making a split and observing!!!


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