# Anyone know anything about Mexican Sunkist/AMM?



## MichaBees (Sep 26, 2010)

Dr. Russell told me once that his father had sold 50? colonies to some farmers from the copper canyon in the Sierra Madre of Chihuahua. 
My understanding is that the colonies were not tended to and swarmed for years and the region was saturated with the Sunkist genetics, mixing with the real feral hives that live on the deep canyons of Chihuahua. I see them out there but they are mostly crazy aggressive -some swarms and hives I have found them to be calm and nice to work with. The elevation is 8k+ so africanization may not be a factor -or it may, maybe AMM?. 
They survive well without any kind of treatment and are highly productive -but the aggression factor is not a nice thing to deal with.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I was hoping you would chime in. I keep running across darkish bees at high elevation here that match their description - and vicious attitude. I have two hives of them. Not AHB, but they don't act like regular bees either. Mine are a bit watered down at this point -tolerably aggressive I would call them. Catch them on a bad day and watch out! They look like dark italians and have dark reddish queens and black drones.

Know of any other races of bees that have become established down there in the face of full blown AHB?


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Only rumor from some older beek's in my area, but supposedly AMM have been down in Mexico since the 1800's, the exact area I don't know. That strain is somewhat nasty, if that is indeed the same stock as mine are believed to be. Fantastic honey producers, some of the very hardest working bees. Tough little survivors, well adapted to the west coast, but work them in good weather or don't bother. They do almost give AHB a run for their money in misbehavior. They are NOT a favorite of bare-hands beekeepers!


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Sounds a little like my bees. Last winter I watched bees like these fly and gather the last of the remaining pollen when it was 34 degrees outside. Survivor is not a strong enough word for them.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

You are describing Apis Mellifera Mellifera traits. The dark queens with reddish pilosity, large dark aggressive worker bees, and foraging at temperatures just above freezing are all traits that are found most developed in AMM. I've often seen AMM colonies foraging when Italians are inside shivering.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

When I first started doing feral removals, I was afraid these bees were some kind of AHB, but after running across real AHB hybrids a few times, now I know otherwise. I have noticed those AHB hybrids are not as dark. If I pull out light bees with yellowish drones, invariably they have more AHB traits. Funny thing, those bees are usually not as mean as the dark ones. Honestly, I have some bees derived from Russians, and these dark bees act very, very similar in my eyes - the only big difference is the cluster size and the Spring build-up.

At this point I am pretty convinced I am running into a local strain of AMM or AMI (Iberica/Intermissa) of some sort. I have heard about the Mexican AMM along the border - so it seems logical they would be related.


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## broodhead (May 30, 2009)

Dr. Russell !!! I hate to laugh but this guy really gets around. These so called Sunkist are nothing more than goldens.


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## seyc (Jul 15, 2012)

I was reading a study that said there is no AMM in New Mexico. There are some people studying the genetics of honey bees.
http://comp.uark.edu/~aszalan/Site/Apis/Honey_Bee_Research.html

How about send them some of your bees?


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I am pretty well versed with Mrs. Magnus and her research. A lot of her research points to a portion of the bee population here being Iberian or Intermissa. Spanish Iberian bees are a variant of the AMM from Western Europe, mixed with a little African Intermissa - another black bee. The story goes that the Spanish brought them over during the conquest of the Americas. That is probably what I am seeing. Mrs Magnus has since moved on to work for Monsanto, if I remember correctly and the study is no longer being undertaken.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

FYI for anyone following this thread... Just spoke with Carol Sutherland, NM State Entomologist. She told me that AMM/Black Bees have, in fact, existed in New Mexico. On top of that, several beekeepers in San Juan county imported a bunch of them several years back and they got loose, swarmed, and bred with the feral bees. They pretty much spread all across the county and quite possibly further. She said the old bee inspector from that period HATED going to that county, as the bees were always difficult and unmanageable.

Interesting story nonetheless.

She is the lady I have test my bees to make sure AHB is not creeping into my queens. She sends them to OSU, I believe.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Paul - I am very impressed at your getting Ms. Sutherland's help, and her sending bees off for genetic identification. That is a good learning habit. More of us should get to know our county and/or state bee inspector / entomologist.


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## HaplozygousNut (Dec 30, 2015)

Wow, this is very interesting. I might be seeing similar bees in our colonies here in North Carolina. Here are a couple videos of our bees:









 (Narrow forewings and narrow abdomens like A. m. intermissa)









Dark Drone (Punic bee mix?)


Apis mellifera intermissa? Mother colony: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJwaUrGD8UU




www.youtube.com




(Large, dark drone from a daughter colony from the colony in the video above)





 (broad abdomens and wide wings like A. m. mellifera)



HaplozygousNut said:


> Here in this article there is a photo of German black bees from Airole, Imperia, Italy. The German black bees there in Italy are thicker banded. There is even a photo of A. m. sicula that are very thin banded on the same page:
> http://www.bulletinofinsectology.org/pdfarticles/vol71-2018-257-271fontana.pdf
> 
> More videos of the suspected German black bee colony:
> ...


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Soo since some old threads are surfacing without the cenex of the era, I don't want any one to waist the amount of time I did trying to source some or the Russel sunkiss 


Julius Russell (the father) died in 2010  https://www.dignitymemorial.com/.../julius-russell-4469643
there is a good write up of him here and by all acounts he was the real thing https://www.nydailynews.com/.../julius-russell...

There was never a real "Dr Russell", this was the scammer son Robert Lee Russell , he claimed a PHD... he claimed to be Brother Adam trained, he claimed a lot of things.
Robert was arrested Feb 20 2013 http://neshobademocrat.com/.../County-Jail.../2/297/28303 (link now broken)
"Dr" Robert Russelll was a fraud much of the "info" is bull****o fluff.








Robert Russell Apiaries - Update


I wanted to let everyone know some of the information that I discovered while trying to figure out who stole my hives. Robert Russell is running a big scam. He was going by the name Rob hughes on the phone and in person saying that rob hughes was Roberts employee and crew chief. He is very good...




www.beesource.com


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