# Commercials Using Apigaurd



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Is anyone using Apigaurd? I saw it in use for the first time yesterday. How many of you are using it? How do you like it? Cost effectiveness evaluation?

Thanks.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

It's a good product. Works real well between boxes in a double, if you put it on top bars you want to use a rim or recessed lid as there is a tendency to propolize it against the lid. It's a pretty good jolt to the bees and will kill some pupae but they recover pretty quickly. I would stay away from using it if temps over about 90 are expected.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What happens to it? Does it volitalize and evaporate? Jim, do you use the white pads that come w/ the tubs?


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## Beetrucker74 (Oct 10, 2010)

I have heard that the tolerence is getting much higher in the mites. Anyone seeing this, I am a Formic user but like to switch things up on them buggers.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I nearly didn’t reply, as you specified commercial and I’m not sure I qualify.
I have used Apiguard on a couple of hundred hives. It works pretty well. If temps are over 90, reduce the dose. The manufacturer’s website says to do this, the US distributor (Dadant) fails to mention it. It is disruptive to the colony. I’ve seen some brood loss, temporary shutdown of brood production and occasional supercedures. These are at higher temps than you may have. I would expect some absconds if you used a full dose at high temps. I use the application cards supplied by Dadant. I tried some 4x6 index cards from an office supply but they absorb much of the fluid. The Dadant cards are coated, so they don’t seem to.
According to the manufacturer, the product works both by contact and as a fumigant. They say to close off screened bottoms.
Price effective? I guess as much as any of the thymol products. Two applications.
I just got a couple of tubs this week. I will be using Apiguard and Hopguard this year. Hopguard is clearly more costly but I’m thinking to try it all the same.
Good luck.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

here is the method I use, works well, I do in the spring and fall and haven't had any problems, I especially use it when the temps are to high for formic acid.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-learning-curve-part-3-the-natural-miticides/


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Great Link wb. I don't read enuf of what Randy Oliver writes.


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

It's good stuff. We did a single application in late feb and it got the levels low low low, now if it will ever cool off...


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ditto what beemandan says.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

I am not commercial so not sure if it matters. I had planned on Apiguard being my primary treatment in a week or two but I had to leave town on short notice and threw supers on most of my hives just in case this fall flow was as big as last years. They have drawn and started to fill those so nicely that I am opting for MAQS this season just so I can leave these extra supers on till the end of the season. That to me is the only downside of Apiguard in that you can't always treat when you want.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> I nearly didn’t reply, as you specified commercial and I’m not sure I qualify.
> I have used Apiguard on a couple of hundred hives. Good luck.


That's why I Posted this Thread in the Commercial Section. So it might get answered by other commercial beekeepers. But, don't worry, I am glad to have your input. This Forum isn't restricted as far as I know. Not like other Forums.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Keth Comollo said:


> That to me is the only downside of Apiguard in that you can't always treat when you want.


I thought you could. So, it's not a good idea to slap on the Apigaurd and then add a cpl of supers? But it is alright to do that w/ MAQS?

I have some MAQS a friend of mine gave me. I threw them on a yd which I took honey from today. Then I supered for goldenrod. Not a great go round for the first crop. Two shallows per hive.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Apiguard instructions say do not treat with honey supers on the hive. 

MAQS is fine for use with supers on and is the reason I am using it this fall. Next year I might plan a bit differently (harvest later and leave most of the goldenrod for the bees) and be able to use the Apiguard. I think I may have harvested too early as they are bringing in tons of nectar right now and if I didn't have the extra supers on I imagine they would be busting at the seams.

One great thing at MAQS is you treat once and are done. If I had hundreds of hives this would have been enough of a reason to use it.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I think there is a danger of tainting any honey produced with a thymol smell. I have heard heresay reports of beekeepers using it during a surplus flow without a problem but there would seem to me to be a lot of variables (honeyflow intensity, temps, ventilation, number of boxes etc.) to make any kind of blanket statement on that. I have experimented with applying thymomite strips in the middle of a double with a medium surplus super on and couldn't detect any odor in the honey at all. I have not tried it with Apiguard though.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> That's why I Posted this Thread in the Commercial Section. So it might get answered by other commercial beekeepers.


I understood but the only commercial reply you'd gotten, at that point, was from Jim Lyon so I figured that there aren't many, if any commercial folks using Apiguard. I'm not surprised. It is relatively expensive and labor intensive. If I were running thousands of hives, I'd have to think long and hard about using it.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

beemandan said:


> I understood but the only commercial reply you'd gotten, at that point, was from Jim Lyon so I figured that there aren't many, if any commercial folks using Apiguard. I'm not surprised. It is relatively expensive and labor intensive. If I were running thousands of hives, I'd have to think long and hard about using it.


Your post is most welcome. Having treated several hundred hives I think your insight is quite helpful. I might disagree with your cost assessment though. At about $1.25 per application (about the same as Thymomite) in my mind it is pretty affordable. The API-life Var wafers get pretty spendy though.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> It is relatively expensive and labor intensive.


You are welcome to comment. No problem.

At $1.50 per treatment, I don't know that that seems expensive. And it didn't seem all that labor intensive when we were taking the honey off. I guess the second treatment, 14 days later, would be the expensive part.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> At about $1.25 per application (about the same as Thymomite) in my mind it is pretty affordable.


And even less if you use a lower dose because of high temps. I was thinking less about the material cost and more about the labor. Two visits to a couple of hundred hives is bad enough but two to several thousand might be a different matter.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So, the second treatment wouldn't get put on 14 days later, it would get applied during the next trip. Surely it's still effective. Maybe not as, but effective.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Surely it's still effective. Maybe not as, but effective.


How long do you usually go between hive inspections after harvesting honey? To my thinking, if you go more than three weeks between treatments....the effectiveness will be substantially less. If you allow those mites that were in the brood during the first treatment to initiate a second reproductive cycle you've wasted your time.....again in my opinion.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

In my case I have around 400 some hives and I usually put a mite treatment on as I pull the last supers and then not again until Spring, just before apple pollination. Now that I have MAQS on some those will probably not get another treatment until they get down to SC. Whereas the rest will get treated w/ Apigaurd soon and then either before they go South or soon after getting down there, I imagine.

I don't usually go into the brood nest regularly once the hives have been set up so as not to swarm.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I don't usually go into the brood nest regularly once the hives have been set up so as not to swarm.


Are you of the opinion that going into the brood nest incites an increased level of swarming?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm of the opinion that going into the brood nest unnecassarily tends to promote queenlessness. I figure that when things are as they should be I don't need to fix what isn't broken.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks for not being harsh when non commercials post here!

Can anyone tell me about the need for a rim or resecssed lid. I run mostly singles and my lids have a 1/8" lip. How can I avoid using a rim or extra super?

Thanks


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

For what, MAQS? Or Apigaurd? I set supers above the MAQS I put on today. I'm going to be busy extracting for a while and don't want to miss any honey coming in, so I don't see the point of only applying the MAQS.

I guess the point of rims, as far as treatments are concerned, is to allow air flow all around the pad, rather than compressing it down.

Rims in the cover help give some space for pollen pattys to lay on the top bars so bees can get all around them.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

I believe some use rims for the Apiguard.... I just squash the maqs between supers. Wonder if you really have to use rims for apiguard?


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I meant rims when applying Apiguard. It seems that it is recomended to either placed inbetween two brood boxes or on top bars under lid with a rim for space. I have mostly single brood boxes but my lids do have a 1/8" lip and I would buy the bulk stuff to place on cards.
Can you use it on the bottom board?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Probably makes a gas that is heavier than air and drifts down thru the hive.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Thinking of using apiguard instead of maqs this go around. Most of my hives are deeps with 2 mediums with an 8th in rim on the lid. So I should be able to place them on the top and cover with the lid?? I'll use the standard card to place the 50 gr scoop onto. But I'm not real crazy about having to go around twice.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I have tried putting Apiguard directly under a flat lid and didn't have much success as they will usually just propolize the stuff up against the lid. I would be afraid only an 1/8" recess might not be enough evaporative room, but that is just a guess. Between boxes has worked quite well though. I see that is also what Randy Oliver recommends.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

the other problem with putting them directly on the top without an air space is if you get an early hot day all of the apiguard will evaporate at once and not last the seven days its designed to do.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Mbeck said:


> Can anyone tell me about the need for a rim or resecssed lid.


Apiguard comes in several different packages. The basic is a predosed tin. If you are using that, you need some means to make sure that the bees can get into the tin to remove the stuff…this is the contact part of its operation. If you place it between supers or above the top box, you need a shim to allow the bees access. 
If you use it from a bulk tub, placing the dose on a delivery card you do not need a shim. But, as Jim pointed out, if you place it on the top of the hive, the bees will likely glue it and the frames to the cover.
I believe they are now selling a third delivery method. It is a half dose sachet. Probably don’t need a shim if placed between supers. Surely the priciest of the methods.
If my memory serves me, I believe you should place the dose directly above the brood frames. It makes sense, as this is where you will find the heaviest population of mites.
Happy mite hunting to all.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Whereas the rest will get treated w/ Apigaurd soon and then either before they go South or soon after getting down there, I imagine.


I don't know how long you go between 'soon' and the move south but if it is more than a few weeks, you may find Apiguard disappointing.
Good luck.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I understand.


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

I use Apigaurd in Dec. I treat half a scoop twice about 10 days apart. My lids have 5/8 rims on them ,I used to use flat lids , I dont think you get as good of a kill though I think it needs the room to kinda air out. The first dose will mess the bees up for a few days so they will look bad ,It will also weed out any week hives, anybody thats on there way down will get finished off. They dont mind the 2nd treatment as much though . I think It works great, Ive used it since it first came out and recommend it.


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

Good thread here--I am not a commercial beekeeper by any means but I have used the product--one thing I didn't see posted here is that you should not use it at cooler temps --I think the manufacturer warns not below 60 degrees because the gel is supposed to sublime into a vapour and that is what kills the mites. If you use it in late fall (like I did....) the gel just crystallizes and gets hard as a rock and does nothing. 
Any more input from anybody about no shims--Randy Olivers site says he puts the treatment between the two supers and while it doesn't say the photos look like he just sticks it in on a regular index card -- I cant see making up all kinds of shims!

Finally a beekeeper near me makes his own thymol patties but I have no Idea of the costs involved or where to get the thymol anyone ever try this??


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

xcugat said:


> Finally a beekeeper near me makes his own thymol patties but I have no Idea of the costs involved or where to get the thymol anyone ever try this??


This is what I've seen most too, they just make up their own thymol patties.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

ok, so whats the recipe


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## sjvbee (Dec 27, 2006)

I have made thymol patties and have never had as good of a mite kill
as with apigaurd I have matched the initial knock down but not the
sustained kill. And yes it is hard getting back in 14 days but it pays


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

I have use apiguard on hobby side for a couple of years now as my only treatments for mites. This year I plan to do a follow up with OA dribble in November based upon readings of Randy Olivers's articles.


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## Ishi (Sep 27, 2005)

Received this reply when apiguard first came out concerning the use at temps above 95 F

From: "Max Watkins" <[email protected]>
To: "'Daniel Dempsey'" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Apiguard

Dear Mr Dempsey,

The 2 x 50g treatment is good for a single brood or for a double brood. If you use more than two brood boxes then a further dose is often needed. The 25g treatment is useful for treating small colonies (nucs or small wintering colonies). At daytime temperatures, as you report of 103F I would try 2 x 25g or maybe 3 x 25g (See the attached list of FAQs and answers on Apiguard).

No need to restrict the entrance but make sure the bees have enough space to actually get at the gel. Best way we have found is to put an empty super on top of the brood box(es).

Let me know how you get on.

All the best,


Max



Dr Max Watkins
Director
Vita (Europe) Limited
21/23 Wote Street
Basingstoke
Hampshire RG21 7NE
UK

Tel.: +44 (0)1256 473 177
Fax: +44 (0)1256 473 179

e-mail: [email protected]
web: http://www.vita-europe.com



APIGUARD FAQs - 2006 revision2 (2).doc


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

just buy thymol crystals and put 8 grams in a honey jar lid and leave some head space with a rim board and it has the same results as apiguard but way cheaper.

buy it here

http://www.wintersunchem.com/bee-keeper

The application rate for Apiguard is two applications 14 days apart of what amounts to 12.5 gm of Thymol per dose or 25 gm over all.

this approach uses simple crystals and a dish under the cover.

www.stratfordbeekeepers.org.uk/PENotes/VarroaTreatment.htm


the author, Peter Edwards is a well respected beekeeper in England and president of a major beekeeper association where he promotes this as the primary varroa treatment and has been used for over 15 years there


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Thanks for the info Bud. However, do you use the crystals and if so what's your take on them?

Larry


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

Yes we have excellent control on 500 hives, 2nd year running. Feed light amount dissolved in alcohol in syrup in spring and maybe fall also controls mites.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Thanks Bud,
But I'm confused (it's my nature).....First you say, buy the crystals and put 8 grams in a jar lid & place on the hive. Then you state "Feed light amount dissolved in alcohol in syrup in spring and maybe fall also controls mites."

Would you spell it out a little better for me?

Thanks.....

Larry


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So what is the availability of Apigaurd like now?


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

I got an email from Vita saying that Customs had fast tracked the container to Mann Lake so supply should be fine now once back orders are filled.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

My three week old backorder for apiguard arrived last week...from Dadant


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

I apologize. I meant to say that Vita stated that Dadant is the company that their shipment was fast tracked to in my previous post. I don't even think Mann Lake carries Apiguard.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Bud Dingler said:


> just buy thymol crystals and put 8 grams in a honey jar lid and leave some head space with a rim board and it has the same results as apiguard but way cheaper.
> 
> buy it here
> 
> ...


So based on the reading of the article and the pricing of the thymol crystals is only a 55% savings over using Apiguard on the size of your operation. Do you follow the 4 week treatment plan?


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

yes its the same idea as apiguard and other miticides you repeat the procedure after 2 weeks to kill mites that hatched out in the meanwhile. 


we use crystals and also give one feeding of thymol in syrup. 

you can dissolve thymol in alcohol and feed 6.4 grams/thymol per colony in syrup. usda bee lab in baton rougue did a study and showed the thymol is present in low doses in late larva stages. studies are lacking that show this method actually kills mites but i can say we have had very good wintering on colonies fed thymol and overall good mite control.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Have you ever had any issues with Thymol coming thru in the honey?


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## NoDak Beekeeper (Sep 3, 2012)

We are just starting our second round of apiguard treatment (we were advised to do 3 25g treatments). Seems to be doing the trick have several sticky boards placed randomly around in different yards. Bees seem to like the stuff better the second go round they move right to the card and start climbing around on it. As for labor my hired man and myself can treat 15 locations per day, today we did 17 but didn't have much driving distance. I know of 2 other commercial beekeepers in my area also using apiguard now too


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