# Feral (cutout) and packaged bees.



## Blackwater Bees (May 7, 2012)

You said the kids and wife give you two packages every year. Do you try to over winter, or just shake them out?
Did the cutout get drawn comb from the cutout and the packages have to build all theirs? Packages and/or cutout fed or not at all? One foundation vs foundationless? 
If everything is equal, I'd say they are less productive and I'd say you should try to overwinter the cutout and possibly raise some splits/queens. If not, your comparing apples to oranges and its an unfair comparison.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Same across the board for both the packages and cutouts. I do not feed. 

Not many beekeepers here in the north overwintered well last winter. I try to overwinter, but sometimes mother nature has different plans.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Mr Beeman.. your assumption about lazy bees may very well be correct, but, I think it has more to do with the bees you receive in the packages. (As a disclosure, I am not a fan of package bees. I would much, much, rather have a cutout, swarm, split, or nuc than package bees). 

Package bees are normally shook from multiple hives and you do not get the same mix of bees you get from an established source, (a cutout) and certainly not the mix you get from a swarm that you catch on the same day that you started a package. A swarm caught on 4 may or a cutout started on 4 May, will outdistance a package started on 4 may in short order. Even if you give the two different colonies the same type box, combs etc.

Several reasons,

1. The package bees have no allegiance to the caged queen that comes with them, until she starts to lay. It takes several days for the package bees to go to work with their new queen. 

2. It takes the package queen several days to start laying. 3. If your package contains a large number of field bees, shook from several hives, you do not have the housekeepers, cleaners, nurse bees, etc needed to kick start the new package. And, you will not get them until you have emerging bees from the new queen. Consequently, unless you have drawn comb, already relatively clean, you may have lots of bees hanging on the hives because there is no place to store pollen and nectar, so, the field bees have no job until storage facilities are completed. This is especially true if using foundation. There is no place to store pollen for brood, or nectar for honey, until the combs are prepared. Cutout bees, swarms, are both, ready to go to work immediately.

Lazy bees, maybe. Wrong mix of bees and time lapse for queen to get started more likely.

Mr Beeman, I know you already know this, just thought some new beekeepers might not, and, it might help to explain the situation to them.

cchoganjr


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Cleo... always a good read when you chime in. Thank you.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Mr Beeman.... Posts, and observations like yours, can be a real aid to new beekeepers, especially when people share their observations and conclusions. Thank You.

Kinda slow in the bee yards today. Getting ready to move some into pumpkin patches, but, not much going on right now in Kentucky. Beautiful, cool, weather, not a lot blooming. Golden rod is getting ready to burst open.

cchoganjr


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Leaving the issues of local bees being naturally selected to survive in your climate... Let's talk about swarms vs packages. It's a bit of anthropomorphism, but a useful comparison I think... Dean Stiglitz said something to the effect of this:

The difference between a swarm and a package is something like this. The swarm is like you and your friends decided to move to the country and start an organic farm and raise your own food. A package is like you and a bunch of strangers were on a bus and it broke down a thousand miles from anywhere and you and your fellow bus riders have to start raising your own food or you will starve...

There is a big difference in attitude and motivation between a package and a swarm.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Thanks Michael... but, I am having difficulty understanding your analogy. Help me please. 

Are you saying a package is more motivated, because they have to "start raising their own food or starve", therefore it will out perform a swarm??? No doubt survival is a great motivator, but I would think that results at the end of the year would favor those who went to the country with the necessary tools and knowledge to prepare for Winter. They can forego the learning curve, they already know what to do, and can start doing it immediately.

Thanks.

cchoganjr


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Thanks Michael... but, I am having difficulty understanding your analogy. Help me please.
> 
> Are you saying a package is more motivated, because they have to "start raising their own food or starve", therefore it will out perform a swarm??? No doubt survival is a great motivator, but I would think that results at the end of the year would favor those who went to the country with the necessary tools and knowledge to prepare for Winter. They can forego the learning curve, they already know what to do, and can start doing it immediately.
> 
> ...


He's saying a swarm is more organized and purpose built with a plan and theoretically a bit more in tune with the area they find themselves compared to bees from Georgia trying to make it in New York.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>Are you saying a package is more motivated, because they have to "start raising their own food or starve", therefore it will out perform a swarm??? 
>He's saying a swarm is more organized and purpose built with a plan and theoretically a bit more in tune with the area they find themselves compared to bees from Georgia trying to make it in New York. 

I'm saying the swarm has a focus and a purpose and a plan. A package is just some random bees trying to sort what to do now that they are homeless. They both end up with the same plan in the end, but one is prepared for it and the other had it thrust on them. The swarm is in the natural order of things. The package finds itself in an emergency and has to make do.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

jwcarlson...thanks... As I read the remarks taken from Dean Stiglitz, I thought he was saying a package would outperform a swarm, because, of motivation to survive. 

Mr Beeman, in the original post on this subject ( which I realize was a cutout, not swarms) he was talking about how much better his cutout bees were doing compared to package bees, and, one of the cutouts was two weeks later. But, there are so many variables in comparing performance it would be difficult to generalize in such a small sample of bees. My experience has been that when equal size, time of year, location, and all the other variables you can standardize are utilized, a package will not out perform a cutout, swarm, nuc, or split, (in the first year). Just my observations, not difinative or scientific. Might not work every time. Then, couple that with my inability to write, what I am thinking, and duuuuh.

Thanks Michael. Guess I was typing while you answered my question.

cchoganjr


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