# Chronic Bee Paralysis Virus



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

maybe this will help;

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick-bees-part-1/


----------



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

so do they look like post #5 in this thread?

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...and-What-They-Look-Like-Your-Experince-Wanted


----------



## Framed (Apr 6, 2014)

Wildbranch - the first video you have linked (dead bees in front of hive/dying bees getting kicked out hive) is EXACTLY how it looks. 

So - you fed them Fumadil and Vitamin C every three days, and it cleared up? That is amazing, if its true. How are the hives today?

How did you feed the Vitamin C? 

On a side note, I did take an alcohol bottle sample of dead bees to send in for Nosema test. Maybe I should just get on with treatment before waiting for results? Thoughts?


----------



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Framed said:


> Wildbranch - the first video you have linked (dead bees in front of hive/dying bees getting kicked out hive) is EXACTLY how it looks.
> 
> So - you fed them Fumadil and Vitamin C every three days, and it cleared up?
> 
> ...


the hive is still alive 2 years later, did my concoction cure it? I don't know but they survived. I ground up the vitamin C and mixed it with the fumidil and sugar water in a 12 oz bear and poured it on the bees and top bars. The hive still sits with all of the equipment as it sat 2 years ago, I don't know what would happen if I used some of the equipment on another hive so I'm waiting for the hive to die at some point then will burn. If you don't see bees on the inside of the hive dragging their rear legs you may have a different problem.



> That is amazing, if its true.


I'll send you pictures of the front of the hive if you want confirmation.


----------



## Framed (Apr 6, 2014)

I don't need pictures - I'll take your word for it. Thanks. I'll try your treatment. I like drenches. BTW - how much vitamin C? And what brand?

Also - why did you treat for an entire month? Was that how long it took to see symptoms releived? Treating every three days for a month seems excessive. There was a study that came out which talked about over-treatment of Fumagillin, and showed that under-dosing and over dosing hives made the drug less effective. But you say you used Fumadil - different drug anyways.


----------



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Framed said:


> I don't need pictures - I'll take your word for it. Thanks. I'll try your treatment. I like drenches. BTW - how much vitamin C? And what brand?
> 
> Also - why did you treat for an entire month? Was that how long it took to see symptoms releived? Treating every three days for a month seems excessive. There was a study that came out which talked about over-treatment of Fumagillin, and showed that under-dosing and over dosing hives made the drug less effective. But you say you used Fumadil - different drug anyways.


The # of dying workers slowed down after a month. Over treatment of fumagillin is irrelevant when you assume the hive is toast anyway. fumadil is fumagillin, they changed the name when the original manufacturer got bought out. treating every three days seems excessive, then try some other combination and let us know how it works, no one has found anything that helps, add to the knowledge base and try something different. :thumbsup:


> how much vitamin C?


 good question, I would just grind up a bunch, and put it in, a guy from canada on bee-l recommended the vit. c. years ago.


----------



## Framed (Apr 6, 2014)

This might be the Canadian on Bee-L, talking about VC (Dave Thompson?) - Sept 13, 2010 - this is an excerpt:


"(VC=VitaminC)

>so what is the current "right" recommendation?

Since this treatment is to poison the virus it takes a largish dose

Fortunatly the bees seem to prefer VC laced feed
500 mg plain VC tablets from drug store
(I'm up to ~900+tablets, 16 hives, 1.5 years, should be more)
Crush or dissolve into minimum water, add to feed
Acute stage 3 times/week (you have to guess - is this hive 'sick', thinking of collapse?, have others?)
Chronic stage 2x month (after it is more of less under control - forever)
Dose varys with colony size, ~ 1 gm /average hive (4-5#bees?)
Overdose preferentially, an underdose will be ineffective
Into the brood area
I'm kind of making this up as I go along, seeing what the results are and adjusting
as best that I can. What else can I do? Retirement would be easier.

Since I am able to have an effect on ccd with this treatment
(WL-winter loss 1st year 84%, 2nd 73%, 3rd 60%, VC start 4th 0% 1Q lost, 5th none so far)
I am forced to the conclusion that ccd is largly viral,
the severity of it being dependant on co-factors
In this case severity = total time to collapse
There is a very small probability that this is all co-incidental, but I still see STR

"There is still not "proof" that ccd is infective,
(except for Randy's work)
or a treatment for dead out combs 
or a description of symptoms other than my poor writings 
(I'm refering to rear leg movements)
or any other treatment suggested other than splitting and new comb
By now everyone knows to control all the diseases that we can test for
but this only seems to slow ccd, the collapse is only delayed"


---Interesting Post!


----------



## Framed (Apr 6, 2014)

Mike, 
D. Thompson used 900+ tablets for 16 hives over the course of 1.5 years, treating every three days... His dose is 1gm per hive, per treatment. So either one 1000gm tablet per treatment, or two 500gm tablets per treatment. 

I'm going to treat with this D. Thompson Vitamin C dose, combined with the standard label-prescribed dose of fumagilin. 

Then I wonder, Mike. Do you think your dose of Vitamin C was higher? D. Thompson reduced treatment to 2x per month when the symptoms went away (of course, he's talking about CCD). Anyhow, he seemed to think that the viruses never really went away. Perhaps if your dose was higher, it was more effective?

This study was posted on Bee-L: Ribere et al 2007: Spread of Infectious CBPV by Honey Bee Feces
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2168079/

I'm my experience, comb is a sponge that holds diseases for years. I think I'll go with your idea of burning the frames when the hives finally die down the line.


----------



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Framed said:


> Mike,
> I'm going to treat with this D. Thompson Vitamin C dose, combined with the standard label-prescribed dose of fumagilin.
> 
> Then I wonder, Mike. Do you think your dose of Vitamin C was higher? D. Thompson reduced treatment to 2x per month when the symptoms went away (of course, he's talking about CCD). Anyhow, he seemed to think that the viruses never really went away. Perhaps if your dose was higher, it was more effective?
> ...


I'm pretty sure that was the person discussing it, but he had other posts where he said one of the symptoms he had was bees dragging their hind feet, that's why I assumed he had paralysis and not ccd, and since he kept having it year after year, I also assumed that his equipment was contaminated, as to dosage, I would just mix in the vitamin c and shake(the bear not me) until it wouldn't take any more, I had already put the fumidil in. good luck


----------



## Framed (Apr 6, 2014)

I started treatment of the CBPV hives yesterday. Here's my treatment plan:

1 tsp Fumagilin
2 tabs Airborne Everyday Immune Support (1000 mg Vitamin C)

*crush tabs into powder, add to 50/50 sugar H20
*add Fumagilin
*shake jar well
*shake droplets (through perforated jar lid) over both brood boxes - empty jar
*repeat every 5 days 3 times
*continue to treat 3 more times using Vitamin C only, every 5 days

Note: this is a total of 6 treatments. This is a treatment that I can afford (timewise). If this doesn't work, I will burn CBPV hives rather than try to save them from now on.
***I used Airborne Everyday tabs instead of Vitamin C because the town closest to this apiary did not have Vitamin C tabs at the grocery store (only had gummies). The Airborne was the best fit. Maybe the added vitamins, minerals, and Echinacea will also help. We'll see.


----------



## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

Curious how this worked out for you @framed - I am assuming by now you have some news about the hives that had the suspected CBPV.

Let us know how things turned out.

Thanks,


----------



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Beelosopher said:


> Curious how this worked out for you @framed - I am assuming by now you have some news about the hives that had the suspected CBPV.
> 
> Let us know how things turned out.
> 
> Thanks,


he hasn't logged in since he replied to this thread.


----------



## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

Yeah sadly i noticed that after i posted


----------



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

you can send him an email through beesource I think worth a try. not a pm where he has to log on.


----------



## Framed (Apr 6, 2014)

My version of the fumagilin/vitamin C treatment didn't work. I burnt the hives. Two had crashed, and the other was limping along. 

Since then, I've heard about "a tonic" that incorporates essential oils and white vinegar, but I don't have the recipe. 

Burning sick hives feels better than I thought! I'll do it again if I have the opportunity!:banana:


----------



## Bee Arthur (Mar 21, 2015)

I never heard of burning a hive except for foul brood. I had a case of CBPV and it was easily resolved by getting the varroa under control.


----------



## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

Yes i wasnt sure about the burning of the hives, comb disposal, etc. From what i have read there dont seem to be real treatment recs out there. Outside of wildbranches.

It also seems like some people get small instances of the disease and some get knock down versions of the disease. It sure doesn't seem like this has gotten the attention other bee diseases have


----------



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Bee Arthur said:


> I never heard of burning a hive except for foul brood. I had a case of CBPV and it was easily resolved by getting the varroa under control.


when I had it I didn't have any problem with varroa, so I'm not sure that contributes, I'm sure it doesn't help either.


----------



## karenarnett (Mar 25, 2012)

I'm confused. Why would you use an antibiotic to treat a virus?

https://www.drugs.com/article/antibiotics-and-viruses.html


----------



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

karenarnett said:


> I'm confused. Why would you use an antibiotic to treat a virus?
> 
> https://www.drugs.com/article/antibiotics-and-viruses.html


is it an antibiotic or antifungal, from Randy olivers web site.



> On the other hand, fumagillin is an antibiotic (or antifungal)


it works on many hive problems not listed on the label, for instance chalk brood, and when the hives is going to die any way, why not try something.

as a point of interest, Randy Oliver was one of the teachers at a bee wellness workshop that I attended, he said there are two types of chronic bee paralysis virus, slow and fast, I had the slow and it seemed to work, Beelospher had the fast variety, his hive died so fast nothing would have worked.


----------

