# outbreeding mites and overwintering nucs



## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

John, I have tried it, and then combined the bees for honey production. My bees overwintered well, but honey production was concentrated in Mid-July for me and I felt I lost out on some early honey; At the time I didn't have much drawn comb, and that might have contributed to the lower honey crop. I did enjoy seeing the nucs produce queens and greatly enjoyed the process. However, my lack of experience meant that I missed a few swarms - I didn't expect the new splits to swarm but they did very early which means I think I missed some q-cells (more than one in each nuc). If I was looking to expand this is a system I could employ.
What really intrigues me is Mel's theory on the timing of the splits. I have 18 nucs in 5 groups and have paid attention to the time that I made them up in an attempt to see if there is a difference in survival rate.
I am trying to work on a system that incorporates Mel's and MP's methods for overwintering and Roland's method of honey production. I think this has great potential for producing colonies without Chemical mite control, and a decent crop of honey as well.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Adrian,

So you made the splits early rather than later in the summer. I would have to do my splits in late July/early August because the bulk of my honey crop comes between May 1 and mid-July and I depend on that. The timing thing is interesting if it works as he says. I believe he based his opinion on later splits having a better survival rate on Doolittle's experiences. I am most interested in whether or not the bees outbreeding the mites will occur in a high percentage of hives, it seems to me it would based on Mel's theory and I assume his experience with his own bees, or he wouldn't be promoting this method as an option to chemical control. I will be trying it this next season to get my mite loads down, as I am noticing an increase this year in particular, currently I am treatment free and want to stay that way. John


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## Queenie (May 9, 2011)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> I am trying to work on a system that incorporates Mel's and MP's methods for overwintering and Roland's method of honey production. I think this has great potential for producing colonies without Chemical mite control, and a decent crop of honey as well.


Interested in the methods referred to In this thread - MP and Roland. Can you post the full name or a link so we can look it up? thanks!


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Queenie sure MP is Michael Palmer, a regular poster on Beesource. Here are two links to his lecture an hour or so of the best viewing you can spend. http://vimeo.com/23178333
http://vimeo.com/23234196

Roland is also a regular poster on Beesource - this is a thread I started about my experimentation with his methods.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?265492-This-may-be-crazy-but


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

Adrian, what time of the year was it that you put the empty boxes under the hives in your experiment? I am wondering what months it was when they drew out all that comb, was it spring, summer, fall, or winter?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Maybe I should have put this in the Bee Forum. I can see not many people have tried Mel's method themselves to comment on it, so does anyone have anything to say about how they think it would work at outbreeding the mite?

John


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

We've tried it but felt it really impacted our honey production because we have a major flow in August and September. Our best winter nucs here are made up the 2nd week of August. We found later gave us enough food production, due to our flow timing, without overpopulation/crowding. Wintering nucs in the north was very challenging but we did have some suprising results. Our best success configuration was by far wintering in 5 frame styrafoam nucs. We were concerned about condensation but have not had any problems in the 5 or 6 years. Because they are water tight on the bottom you can emergency feed by introducing liquid feed into the bottom through the entrance hole. We are convinced the insulation value of the material has a huge impact as even with nucs they are laying early and often and booming by the end of April here in the Finger Lakes. As many know from my posts we also wintere wooden nucs inside an unheated building. It worked well enought but man what alot of work. The area has to be absolutely dark and the temperature variations really suprised me. If you had a building to spare, vented it and light sealed it it would work well. Incidentally - don't leave any empty nucs w/frames over the summer as the wax populations will explode if they are not treated. We have successfully wintered in cardboard MDA boxes which told me that with the right bees, stores and weather 5 frame nucs are great to winter. We keep half our bees north for the winter and everyone is in singles now, although we are wintering some nucs this year as well. I think one advantage of outbreeding vs treating is that in time your bees become more tolerant to mite populations.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

I tried several of Mel's ideas out this summer. This was my first season back in bees. I started with 25 nucs in March and used them as a lab with no concern for honey production this year.

My biggest problem was a lack of drawn comb which greatly slows down the whole process. 2 frame May splits were slow to build comb. Having the biggest drought in our history didn't help either. August 1st splits did much better as I had built up more comb and we had rain by then. I was pretty nervous about making 2 frame splits so late in the season, but most did build up handsomely, and I gave drawn comb from the failures to the others to further enhance development.

Mel's notching technique for making queen cells worked pretty well. I found that using the corner of my hivetool to notch specific cells gave me better control than notching the full width of the hivetool. At first I thought this wasn't working, but then discovered the "smashed area" caused by notching is repaired quickly, and appears as a slight indentation within a few days with a great queen cell protruding downward from it. Having an aversion to grafting due to poor eyesight, I plan to try this again next spring with more combs on hand and hopefully some summer rain. 

Mel promotes 2 frame splits. I can see why most others, including MP, promote 3 frame splits. I'll try both next year in a hopefully "normal non-drought" year.

I haven't treated yet, but am not writing it off at this point.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Mel's method is multi-fold. He advocates taking a colony and breaking it down to multiple 2 frame nucs 4-8 weeks before a honey flow. You let each of those 2 frame nucs build up and rear their own queen. The break in the brood controls mites. Then, you can either take those nucs and let them expand as usual, or you can combine most (or all) into one colony a few days before a honey flow, which will boost your forraging force and create a larger crop.

The goal is to manage around your honey flow, and break the brood cycle around the peak (or just before) of summer. If your honey flow and the peak of summer occur at the same time (or better yet the honey flow after the peak of summer), it conceptually makes sense. For me my main flow is in April. Then it just trickles from May through June. Then everything stops in July. If I were to break down my colonies 4-8 weeks before the honey flow, that would mean I'd have to do it in February, or March 1. I won't get much benefit from doing that, and it won't help with mites. If I did break the cycle during the peak of summer (the dearth of July, or end of June), those 2 frame nucs will succumb to robbing and be lost.

I talked with Mel about adapting his system for my area, and he gave me a number of pointers. His system seemed logical for his area, but not for mine.

Someone at EAS last August was discussing breaking the brood cycle, through the use of nucs or by just removing the queen for 2-4 weeks. He seemed to have success with it though.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Joel,

Thanks for your response, I agree that Mel's method can be hard as far as timing when you are a honey producer, I guess if you are completely dedicated to staying treatment free you may have to sacrifice a little bit of your honey production in order to keep the mites from getting above that economic threshold, which ends up costing you.

Interesting that you find styrofoam nucs to be your best wintering nucs, you don't hear that too often, maybe I should try it. Do you make your own?

John


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Sfisher, I put the empty box under after I had taken the crop off as I recall it was in August, and then we had a huge Goldenrod flow. That was 2011.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Don, 

So are you overwintering nucs this year? How are you doing it? Thanks

John


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Specialkayme,

So the most benefit in terms of mites is gained by splitting later in the season rather than earlier? That way the mites don't have the time to outbreed the bees before winter.

John


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

jmgi said:


> So the most benefit in terms of mites is gained by splitting later in the season rather than earlier?


http://scientificbeekeeping.com/scibeeimages/brasstacks-graph1.png

If you look at the chart (courtesy of Scientific Beekeeping :http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick-bees-part-12-varroa-management-getting-down-to-brass-tacks/), the yellow line shows bee population. About mid summer (June 18 in this chart) resources start to slow down. Pollen slows, honey flows slow, and as a result bees begin to rear less brood. That results in a decrease in population as they prepare for winter. The mite population (as represented by the black and red lines) continues to increase, despite the fact that the amount of brood is decreasing. This results in more mites than brood (in a manner of speaking), and you end up with many more mites in each worker cell, and more mite issues. This causes the crash of a colony.

By breaking the brood cycle, you stop the mites from being able to exponentially increase their population. You want to do this BEFORE it hits a critical level. That critical level occurs when the bees begin to rear less brood but the mites continue onward. For most, that's at the height of summer, or slightly before.In the above graph that would be sometime between June 1 and July 1. When the break of the brood cycle ceases, and the bees begin rearing brood again, the mite level should have decreased below threshold levels. It took the mites from mid January through June to get to that point, so if you knock them back to January levels, it will take them 4-5 months to get back to their "threshold" level. 4-5 months from July (if it takes 4 weeks for a break in the cycle to run it's course) puts you in November or December. By that time there is little brood anyway, which helps keep numbers down.

If you do the break in the brood cycle earlier, you are allowing the mites to increase their numbers within the brood season. If it takes 4 months to go from non critical to collapse levels, and you do a break in the brood cycle in March, you are ensuring that you have collapse levels of mites in July or August, which is the worst time to have high mite counts. That's the time of year the bees need to be (as close to) mite free in order to rear disease free, strong bees to overwinter with.

Or, so the theory goes.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Specialkayme,

What you said makes alot of sense, but I am wondering how problematic are the phoretic mites in November when there is virtually no brood. Don't those mites feeding off the adult bees cause additional bee deaths into the winter? Is varroa infestation of the brood more serious in terms of colony collapse than infestation of adults going into winter? Is there some amount of grooming that goes on in the cluster that removes many of the mites on adults so that they don't become as much of an issue compared to mites in the brood where they damage or kill the larvare/pupae and multiply their numbers? I'm not trying to minimize the seriousness of phoretic mites on adult bee health, just trying to find out what the bigger problem is.

John


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

jmgi said:


> S I am wondering how problematic are the phoretic mites in November when there is virtually no brood. Don't those mites feeding off the adult bees cause additional bee deaths into the winter?


No doubt that the phoretic mites are a problem. How much so, I don't know.

However, the goal of breaking the brood cycle isn't to remove all mites. It's to reduce their population so that the bees can somehow "manage" them. Or learn to live with them. The phoretic mites don't reproduce while in that stage. So by breaking the cycle you are reducing their numbers before they become a problem, not eliminating them.

But, if you think phoretic mites are causing that much of a problem, breaking the brood cycle at any time of year wouldn't be considered a "successful treatment." The only way to remove phoretic mites (in addition to reproductive mites) would be a combination of breaking the cycle and treatments (sugar dusting, EO, or Chemical). 

I'm not an advocate of using this system. The consequences I have are greater than the return. If I have to break the brood cycle right before a dearth, I'm weakening a colony and making them more susceptible to being robbed. If I only break the cycle on strong colonies, and leave weak ones alone, the mites will migrate to the weaker colony with brood (or mite populations will just increase) causing their demise. Either way, I lose colonies from robbing or from mites by using this treatment. Plus you often have queen introduction (or queen mating) issues that cause you to lose some queens/colonies in the process. I'm really talking more theoretical. I tried treatment free for years and it didn't work for me. I tried breaking the brood cycle and it didn't work for me. Just trying to give enough information and experience so you can find what works for you.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I think that part of the reason it may work up here is that it suits the seasons. The midwest has a pronounced cold winter, strong early flows, a big summer flow, and a somewhat consistent fall flow. This gives us some wiggle room when making up colonies. One of Mel's concepts is that you don't need big numbers of bees all the time - only for your peak flows.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Adrian,

Just to back up a bit to something you said earlier about your nucs swarming, you must have started your splits out stronger than two frames of brood as Mel does. Did you intend to cull out all but one cell in the splits, I know you said you must have missed one because you got swarms so quick?

John


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

jmgi, some were 2 brood frame and some were 3. I thought I had culled all but one cell, but the swarms proved I hadn't. I had added some frames from deadouts to them. in the broodless period the bees filled several more frames of honey, and I think they were feeling confident. The swarms were small - I estimate less than a couple of pounds of bees a piece.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Adrian,

I look forward to seeing what the outcome is of your nuc survival based on the different times you started them. What were your earliest and latest dates of startup? 

John


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

John, the earliest ones have not had a brood break - unless they requeened themselves. The latest ones were made on June 17th. The mid ones were made the last week of May. All were taking cleansing flights today.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Adrian, it will be interesting how this all comes out, next year I will be doing early ones as you did plus later ones also(late July/early Aug.)that will give us a longer time span to compare wintering results from. Was full sun here today and no wind, but temps were still a little cold for much flying, supposed to warm more this weekend.

John


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

jmgi said:


> Don,
> 
> So are you overwintering nucs this year? How are you doing it? Thanks
> 
> John


I have 10 5 over 5 nucs going through the winter. 2 look pretty weak, but 3 others are in their 3rd 5 frame box. The stronger ones had all drawn comb to start with. This is my first crack at this. I've learned that here in Indy, a 2 frame split started August 1 will build up in time if I move it from another yard. 2 frame splits started in the same yard that same date lose too many bees. They may make it though, we'll see in the spring.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Don,

I hope they pull through for you, sounds like they will. I do the same 5 over 5, my splits were 2-3 frame but kept them in the same yard and didn't move them away. I kept them confined for a few days hoping that would minimize bees going back, I think it helped some. John


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Don, forgot to ask how you are protecting them this winter? John


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

jmgi said:


> Don,
> I kept them confined for a few days hoping that would minimize bees going back, I think it helped some. John


Good idea John. I'l try that next time. 

I'm protecting them in 2 ways;
1. Pushed them together in groups of 2 and 3
2. They are on the south end of my home with privacy fence on both ends of them. No wind, no people, and they still get about 4-5 hours of good sun. The brick wall they are facing seems to heat up as well. Haven't decided on further insulation yet. I'd like to spend any further protection making styro nucs for next year. From what I've learned here, they will pay for themselves.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

At what temperatures do nucs or full size hives for that matter need protection. We have very mild winters here and I have not added anything to my hives yet. Bright sunny days through out the winter I am a bit reluctant to ad anything that absorbs heat. This morning it is 41 degrees by this afternoon it could be in the 70's. this happens all winter. Coldest day so far has been 19 in the morning got into the 60's during the day.

So far my only thought on winter prep has been to wedge the inner covers for ventilation. And even with that not much as we have a very dry climate.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Don, sounds like a good wintering spot, they may not need further protection or if anything just tarpaper them for more heat absorption. I too have been reading about styro nucs and how they winter bees real good. The white expanded styrofoam has an r-value of 3.8 per inch, the blue and pink extruded has r-value of 5, wood is r-value of 1, so there is a big difference. I like to make my own stuff as much as possible so I am looking forward to building some of these for next winter, wish I would have thought about it sooner to try it out this winter. John


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Daniel Y, you can get by without protection with those kinds of temperatures every day, ventilation is always important though. John


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## Queenie (May 9, 2011)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Queenie sure MP is Michael Palmer, a regular poster on Beesource. Here are two links to his lecture an hour or so of the best viewing you can spend. http://vimeo.com/23178333
> http://vimeo.com/23234196
> 
> Roland is also a regular poster on Beesource - this is a thread I started about my experimentation with his methods.
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?265492-This-may-be-crazy-but


Thank you! Just watched Michael Palmers lecture... Fascinating and inspiring!


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Just to contrast, MP doesn't make early spring splits. Mel's plan relies on it. 
Mel says to make 2 frame splits one week before swarm season. We still get some intermittent chilly days here at that time. I tried a few early splits and witnessed chilled brood being hauled out after a cold snap. I'll wait until night temps are warmer next time.

I make my own parts as well John. Looking for a good styro plan. There would have to be wood strips at the top and bottom and in the frame rests. 

Daniel Y, Sounds like you need hive protection in the summer rather than in winter.


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

What if you just cut some styrofoam, and tacked all around your nucs for the winter, and then took it off come spring?


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

sfisher said:


> What if you just cut some styrofoam, and tacked all around your nucs for the winter, and then took it off come spring?


I see you are in another thread where that person is doing exactly what you described. Being an old carpenter, I see this as building the same box twice, and a storage issue for all that foam when not in use. Better than nothing though.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

sfisher, this has worked for me in Wisconsin. The nucs are squeezed together on their stand. Each individual nuc's styofoam cover is on top of a FBIC, and the two outside nucs have a panel of styro. on the outside. I covered it with a wrap of pond liner and tied it all down.
http://s1110.beta.photobucket.com/user/AdrianQuineyWI/media/2011-11-23104616.jpg.html?sort=6&o=42

I suspect that if you overwinter in SC you probably don't need to do this much work.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Don, you make a good point about building the same box twice, using a styro nuc would eliminate that and still would give you about the same insulating value. Storing all that foam board is another downside I have to contend with every year too, besides being labor intensive, its getting where I dread going out to put the foam on every winter, there has to be a better way. John


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Adrian, I did my nucs exactly the same as you except for the pond liner a couple years ago. Unfortunately I didn't have good success that winter, wasn't the lack of insulation though. John


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

John, time will tell whether or not it consistently works. The previous year I divided a hive, and half of it died out early - I don't know why - but the remaining half survived with little insulation and no close neighbors. All it had was a piece of styro on the top and a piece of tar paper. 
I don't know if all the insulation is necessary, but it makes me feel better. I might experiment with less insulation on a group another year to see if it makes a difference.
My apiary is inconvenient for me, it is on quite a slope. Yet the slope is south-facing, and I have natural windbreaks from all other directions.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Adrian, I am fairly confident that a full size (at least two story) hive doesn't need packing in the U.S. as long as they go into winter the way they should, especially with a good sized cluster, they can handle alot of cold just fine. Anything less than the ideal full size colony and nucs I feel would benefit from some additional insulation. I just don't see how a stand alone 5 frame nuc can make it in a northern winter without some help, I'm sure there are some that have done it though, as for me I will take the time to improve my odds. John


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

John, I wasn't clear. My surviving nuc was 2 storeys of 5 frames. I am not brave enough to attempt wintering a nuc with only 5 frames.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Still want to know if anyone out there has tried Mel Disselkoen's method and not found it to help much in outbreeding mites, or if you feel there are flaws with his method. John


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Nice picture Adrian.

And just to clarify, I wasn't putting down on wrapping with styrofoam. I have about 30 hives, and am buying 75 singles in the spring. That would be too much foam to handle and store.
I've been out of bees awhile before this year, but have overwintered hives 14 years on the 38th parallel with no wrap of any kind. 

This is my first crack at nucs, before the internet, I would have not thought it possible. I agree that nucs need more protection.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

jmgi said:


> Still want to know if anyone out there has tried Mel Disselkoen's method and not found it to help much in outbreeding mites, or if you feel there are flaws with his method. John


After my first season trying Mel's methods, I did not get the expected results because I didn't have all drawn comb. I think it is worth a try if you have the comb to support it. You can't outbreed mites if the queen is waiting on comb builders.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Don, drawn comb is almost as good as gold, you can never have too much of it either brood or honey storage. I've been there myself in the past and it can really slow down what you are trying accomplish, or I should say what the bees are trying to accomplish. John


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## bnm1000 (Oct 12, 2011)

If you start a nuc with the intent on building up drawn comb, what do you do with it? Can you store it, or do you need to put it on a stronger hive?


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

bnm1000 said:


> If you start a nuc with the intent on building up drawn comb, what do you do with it? Can you store it, or do you need to put it on a stronger hive?


You'll get a lot of different advice on this one. Once a hard freeze kills the wax moths, you can just store them outside or in an unheated area. Some use Para moth balls until then, some use BT for sale here in the for sale forum, some store over or under strong hives, others just don't take it off until late in the season. I've personally just used Para moth balls then remove them when hard winter sets in, but BT would be a better choice for those more critical of wax contamination.

And John is right, drawn comb is beekeeper gold.


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