# Joints on hive bodies



## alblancher (Mar 3, 2011)

I just joined the forum and have a question about building hive bodies. I plan on using 3/4 plywood and have a question about alternatives to the standard box joint.

I would like to miter the ends on a 45 and use 1/4 inch dowels, screws and glue to hole them together. If necessary I can also use fiberglass tape and resin to seal the joint and strengten it a bit. I am planning on using resin to weatherproof the outside of the hive body.

Will this provide enough stability to the hive body?

Thanks,

Al


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I would skip the dowels and just use Titebond III and screws for the mitered joints. Sealing/reinforcing the corners with some two or three inch fiberglass tape and resin sounds good. You'll also want to seal all edges with resin or TBIII.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Depending on the quality of the plywood both rabbet and miter joints can cause plywood to delaminate in the weather. I think you'd be better off to use a plain butt joint with a good polyurethane construction adhesive ( PL5000 or similar NOT Gorilla glue). Fasteners don't hold well in plywood end grain. Fiberglass tape would probably help but to coat the entire box would be too much of a vapor barrier, preventing moisture in the wood from passing through, promoting delamination and/or mold.


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## alblancher (Mar 3, 2011)

Thanks for the responses.

I probably shouldn't put resin on the inside of the box, don't see any real reason to do that unless it makes removing frames easier. If I use plywood sanded on one side (BC) would it be better to put the smooth side inside the hive to facilitate removing frames? Is there any reason to paint the inside of the bodies? It was suggested in a beginners class at the local bee club that we could paint the hive bodies with melted bees wax, is there a good reason to track some down and use if for the interior of the hive bodies

I will order the Titebond III, looks like a pretty good product.

So now the question is butt joint or miter joint. From the experiences I have had with wood working I was thinking just the butt joint and the dowel but wanted to have more glue area and decided on the miter joint.

Maybe with the butt joint, dowels, and Titebond III I could do without the fiberglass tape but I do like the idea of the extra stability. Its tough not having any bee experience and trying to change a widely accepted constuction technique (box joint)

Thanks Again CG3 and Beecurious

Al


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Glue Screw with TB3 and you should be good. 

1/2 ply is not going to make them as thick as a normal box so keep in mind you will have a different outer dimensions then regular bought boxes. I use ply for tops and bottoms and make the boxes normally. I do make all my Nuc's out of ply because they are smaller anyway. My nuc's have an attached bottom so it gives them strength.


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## alblancher (Mar 3, 2011)

Yea I wish I could afford true 3/4 ply sanded both sides but depending on what I learn about the requirements for the interior of the hive I will probably just use 3/4 (23/32 you pay for the layer sanded off) for the bodies.

You guys are making it easier and easier.

Al


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## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

Why not just use 1" lumber. From the mill it is usually 3/4 inches and is about the same cost per box as plywood, atleast here it is.


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## alblancher (Mar 3, 2011)

I intend to build all deeps for both hive bodies and honey supers. There is a lot of waste using 1x12s for the deeps.

There again, I'm new to this, am I looking at something incorrectly.

I can get 2 complete 5 body hives from 2 sheets of 3/4 ply and a sheet of 3/8 ply. I am going to use some 2x4 for the hive stands and screen bottom boards. I will have almost enough 3/8 left over that I can build a 5 frame nuke to capture my first swarm to get the hives started.

Looks like I will have to purchase a metal queen excluder, 100 plastic frames, a 9 frame spacer for the honey supers, a jacket and veil, a smoker and hive tool. 

Looks like a pretty cool hobby with a lot of fascinating things to learn.

Al


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I think you are over-thinking this. On the one hand, I'd say to go for it and let us know how it turns out. On the other hand, by the time you've bought BC plywood, resin, etc, you're into the cost of a pre-cut budget box. My reservations with your plan are: plywood outgasses formaldahyde for quite a while (although I have made nukes from it, I let them air for months), in 1/2 in ply end grain a screw will certainly separate the laminations, if a butt joint construction adhesive (in a caulk-type tube) is far superior to TB3 or poly (Gorilla) glue- It's made to stick to plywood and is very forgiving about less-than-perfect joints. Anyway, take any advice with a grain of salt. You know the old saw about 3 beeks giving you 5 answers, the same is true of carpenters. Good luck, have fun.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Why don't you see if there's a local sawmill. Call a cabinet shop and ask. I can get boards dried, cut to width and planed really cheap if I'm willing to get whatever species they're overstocked with.


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## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

I'm guessing you are wanting to try and build up your bee yard as least expensive as possible or you would be using 1 by pine like most of us buy our build. I'd say give it a try and let us know how it goes.

I'd rethink using deeps for honey supers because they get very heavy. Guess you could use a cart to move them. By the time you move one into the garage full of honey you will know what I'm talking about. Suppose you could start with deeps and then use them for brood chambers later if they are too heavy for ya. I use deeps for brood and mediums for honey supers. The mediums can be used also when using a top feeder that requires an empty box around them so they are not all just sitting around when not being used to collect honey. I've never meet anyone at our bee club that uses deeps for honey supers but I'm sure someone must because they want to keep their equipment standardized. Most of the reading and posts I've read on the subject of standardized boxes folks are using mediums.


Could use commercial tops which are less costly to build than telescoping covers. Costs a ton in sugar to feed hives so any honey they made would have to be kept for feed until they build out all the frames with comb and your bee numbers get up in count. 

I've built my bee equipment in groups of four or five at a time which cuts down on my saw blade changes and you get to know what small pieces are usable as you cut up your materials. Keep the small pieces that are not the correct width to be used as cleats for handles.

In terms of box joints I use finger joints and built a jig to cut them. Sometimes I have to caulk a few wide cuts because my jig is not that great. I did consider using rabbit joints or joints with biscuits. They are strong as heck. Most of the plans I've looked at when people use plywood they go with butt joints.

They do make 3/4" plywood or cdx. Best stick with using 3/4" stock for boxes because you will find your measurements easier to deal with as they relate to bee spacing and how other equipment (such as frames) are built for 3/4" stuff if you buy them.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I have to agree that deeps for honey are too heavy. Bisquit joints also good idea.


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## alblancher (Mar 3, 2011)

I was told by the man teaching the class that by using standard sized boxes and frames gives you a lot of flexibility and allows you to move frames between the honey supers and the brood bodies. He answered the weight question by saying that he removes the honey frames, sets them in a spare super for transport. Doesn't try to move the entire loaded super.

Is that about right?

You guys are halfway right about the cheap thing. I have built three of the homes I have lived in, numerous garages, book cases and just about anything you can think of. It's not the money necessarily, its the pride of taking on a task, setting a goal, really learning how to do it and then doing it. I am sure you can relate to that because bee keeping is not how the average person spends his time.

I like the idea of laying out the hive bodies on a sheet of plywood and trying to adapt the plans I have found to meet the materials I have available. I've learned so much about beekeeping by simply looking at all these plans and different types of hives. 

If I had the experience with active hives I would know how much stress is put on these bodies. Using standard smooth sanded 3/4 ply there is a 1/32 exterior dimension difference between the ply and 1 x 12 dimensional. The internal dimensions will be the same.

Thanks again,

Al


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

CDX is what I use on nuc boxes lids etc. So cheap! Go get the 1x12s, you will thank youself later. 
One other though, maybe if you got a 10 or 12 footer you would have less was.
Also you must add in kerf if you have not already. 

mike


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I have about 50 mediums that I've made out of 23/32 BCX - the 1/32" is insignificant. Since I use 8 frame mediums I have found that the outside dimensions of store bought equipment varies by up to 1/4" - also insignificant. Not particularly pretty, but the bees don't care.

I join my plywood boxes with half blind dovetails, because it makes a very strong joint (the wood would pretty much have to break for them to come apart) and I already had a jig to make them. It also saves time on assembly, because there is absolutely no need to nail or screw them.

They probably won't last as long as store bought boxes, but I bet they last at least 10 years, and they cost me about $3.54 each to make. When they need replacing maybe I'll have positive cash flow and I'll be better able to justify nicer wood. Cyprus would be nice.

For me it's all about the cost, and counting shipping these cost way less than 1/2 - its not a big deal considered for 2-3 hives, but it adds up for 20. By saving money on equipment I get to have 20 hives about twice as fast. This year instead of year after next.

I have a few made out of butt jointed advantech and boy howdy are they ugly - if they aren't painted real good, then you probably wouldn't even notice. But the bees don't seem to mind either way. Kinda heavy though.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

I have done what you are doing and found that most go with wood opposed to plywood 
I figure they must be on too something .I also know If you search you will find the plans on how to make them from 1by 8,10's and 12's these plans are 
made with sketch up and another is made with I think its called Layout
the Lay-out one Calculates how to cut different parts from the 10 and 12's
to use with little too NO waste it will also cut(lay-out) your 4x8 plywood
If I had the links I would post but can't find them :doh:

Real quick I can think of 20" four times = 80" would leave 16" off a 8 footer
that would make 4 sides 1 face 
I am off on the exact numbers NOT included is the cut kerf
I'm just thinking out loud (trouble)
Also they take the 12's and rip to fit and use the rip on the bottoms again I think
I use dumpster wood so I have no real plans


Tommyt

I found one 

http://www.sheetlayout.com/


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## alblancher (Mar 3, 2011)

Looking at it again:

If I go with all deeps and use a butt joint that will be glued, stapled and maybe pegged I can get 7 - 20 inch (19 7/8) length from a 1x12x12 4 inch waste. I can get 8 - 15 inch lengths (14 3/4) lengths from a 1x12x10 with no waste.

To maintain the proper internal dimensions the two ends rabbeted for the frames butt into the longer lengths. Simple cut, minimal dado work (only for the frame rests) and little waste on the lengths. The 1 3/4 inch lengthwise trim (11 1/2 - 9 5/8) will be used for the handheld cleats.

I will use 3/8 plywood for all telescope boards (glue two together for strength) two inner boards, two bottom boards and two screen bottom boards from a single sheet. I will use the 3/8 scraps to build the proper spacing for the inner top board.

2x4s will be used for the hive bottom. I will rabbet a 7/16 slot for the screen bottom board and a 7/16 slot for a solid bottom board. I will have the ability to use both or either screen and solid bottom boards. The bottom boards will slide out so I can remove them to clean the hive or to line with sticky paper to count mites. 

I will paint the exposed side of the telescop cover with fiberglass resin to provide weather resistance. The exposed sides of the hive bodies may also be painted with fiberglass resin.

Hope to start working on the hives Wednesday.

Thanks for all you help

Al


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## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

I also use thin plywood glued together in a double layer for my inside cover and top cover. I bought a full sheet of thin plywood to seperate a 10 frame box into sections, using the thin plywood. I am also going to use the thin plywood in a queen castle and follower board.

Buying a 4x8 sheet of thin plywood was more than I needed but hardly more cost than a half sheet. The lumber yard cut the 4x8 into two pieces so it was easy to haul home. They will cut that 12' lumber in two for ya also if you know the measurement so as not to waste material. As you see I found a use for the extra. Sorry, I know that is off topic but somone mentioned glueing thin plywood in two pieces.

I'm still sold on box joints because so many use them. Maybe if you are building short term usage nucs out of 3/4" cdx (plywood) you don't need to use box joints. For one, in a short used nuc it is common to screw the bottom board on (and I know others than also screw on the bottom board for standard hives also because they move their bee hives often).

I made some stuff with 3/4" cdx and saved half a sheet to make a portable table on top of two saw horses. Don't have to bend over to paint parts anymore and comes in handy while doing wood work. I put the half sheet and saw horses in my outside storage shed during the off session.

Sorry don't mean to spam the thread with so long of posts. I will say this about box joints. If I was only building, lets say 10 or less boxes I would not go through the trouble of figuring out how to make a jig or needing a router/dado blades. I'd just use butt joints with biscuts or something similar with glue and screws.


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Hi Alblancher, here I go again. I built some supers with 3/4" plywood that was given to me and had been in a garage for some thirty years or so. Well I was and still am afraid of delamination. So....I looked at various joining methods. I have used dovetails on pine boxes and they hold up good. For the plywood, however, I settled on MiterLock. Now I use nothing else. I am also suspicious of end grain exposure and similar things. I also do not like any metal fasteners in my boxes, and so it goes. Take a look at what MLCS has to offer in MiterLock router bits. They also have a great video that explains the whole thing. I have no connections with them but think that this corner fastening system beats anything else, but then that's just my opinion. This system is nothing for a production scheme but for a hobby bee keeper with a wood working bent I think that there is nothing better. Take care and have fun


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Well here I am again. Just looked at their site. They call them "LockMiter"
Sorry about that. Take care and have fun


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

Using all the same size box does have a lot of advantages. If you can handle the weight of the deep boxes there is no reason not to do it. I have some ply wood deep boxes I used 3/4in and just used a dado joint. Painted them well and so far have not had any delamination. You will not have that much waste using a 1x12in board. You will end up using most of the drops for bottom boards, cleats, and stuff like that.


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## alblancher (Mar 3, 2011)

I went to the beekeeping class last night and talked to the guy teaching the class. He's been a certified beekeeper for a lot of years and builds all his own hives, expands his apiary with splits and raising his own queens.

I told him how many different opinions I received about my post and he just kind of laughed. He said "just build the **** hives", if you don't want to but the extra woodworking equipment just go ahead and do a butt joint, glue it real well with carpenters glue, staple and it would be better if you did the dowels but it's not necessary. He has had better success using dimensional lumber then plywood over the years. He also suggested against painting the bodies with fiberglass resin says the hives need to breath. He uses a "dip" to protect his woodwork but you need to let the hives sit. If not dipping the hives paint with latex paint but plan on repainting in a couple of years.

One little trick he pointed out was putting a slope on the top part of the cleats to allow the water to drain and not puddle between the cleat and hive body. 

Hopefully I'll buy wood Saturday and start assembly. Just need to finish some furniture I am refinishing out of my way in the garage before I start something new.

Al


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## toad (Jun 18, 2009)

I used to make all of my wooden ware I have a sawmill so from woods to box no real money in lumber, but if you think about it time wise it is much cheaper to by bulk commercial or budget than make them if your time is worth anything to you. As far as plywood I don't think it will hold up as well as lumber, so if it's half as much money but you need to replace them twice as often as lumber have you saved any money or time??


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## alblancher (Mar 3, 2011)

I built the hive to learn about the bees as much as anything else. I agree I didn't save any money doing it. With the dado blade I had to buy ($ 50) the new blades for the table and hand saw, the wood and carpenters glue I paid for really good hives. BUT, I think I learned about bees and bee behavior by researching the construction of the hives.

Now that I have the experience and the jigs built I can put hive bodies together in minutes. I also built hive bottoms that will hold both a screen bottom board and a solid bottom board at the same time. 

One advantage to knowing how to build hives is that I don't have to keep a lot of unused inventory. When I need something it isn't a big deal to build it.

I 'll also keep my eyes out for scrap lumber that can be used, considerably reducing hive cost.

Oh Well, made two telescop covers, 2 inner covers, 8 deeps, two hive bottoms, 4 bottom boards and 2 complete swarm traps.

I didn't order bees yet because I have a problem with being out of town the next couple of weeks so I guess I'll just try and capture a couple of swarms.

Need to order plastic frames and a bee suit today.

Al


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

All my hive components and plans with dimensions are available at SketchUp Warehouse. The plans can be downloaded from there, they can be viewed, modified, and printed by using the free version of Google's SketchUp software, available from Google SketchUp.

Some of the plans were inspired by others. Finger joints are okay, but I also like rabbet joints, and my favorite is the lockmiter. I was thinking how, with a lockmiter router bit and a nice router table it seems making lock miter joints is one of the easiest joints to make. With a generous amount of Titebond III wood glue, sufficient clamping and possibly a few coated deck screws it may be the most durable joint, allowing that it self-aligns the box corners and exposes absolutely no end grain.


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## beehivestate (Oct 14, 2009)

A great way to join plywood into a hive box is the Eco Bee Box bracket. 

http://ecobeebox.com/ecobeebox/Home.html

or 

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Eco-Bee-Box/266536623369158


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## Rob73 (Apr 19, 2009)

I would build them how ever I wanted to if I was you. Use what ever skills you have with what ever materials you can get. I have built hives with box joints, butt joints and rabbit joints. Butt joint is the fastest & easiest. The rabbit joint is probably the next fastest and next easiest. The box joint is probably the most costly and requires a bit of setup. A good dado blade is expensive and getting the setup is a pain. I have a saw with a dado blade and a box joint jig that is dedicated for my box joints. Hands down, the box joint is the strongest. It has more gluing surface area than the others too. Stays square. Drop one of those butt joined or rabbit joined boxes on its corner, or pry up on that corner after is been glued down with propolis and you will appreciate the strength of the box joint. Regardless of the glue and fasteners used. 

That being said. I have some butt and rabbit joined boxes that I have used for a few years & they work well. So I am not knocking them at all. I just have to be gentle with em. I built them before I had the skill or tools to cut the box joints. But a hundred dollar dado blade later and an extra table saw, box joints are the way for me. If you want similar strength of a box joint, there is an easy way. Instead of 6 interlocking fingers or so on the end of the board, just cut two, or one or three. They can be cut with a jig saw, and dont have to have too much precision. 

Any way you go, it'll be fine. If it doesnt work for ya, you will do something different  .

Rob


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

beehivestate said:


> A great way to join plywood into a hive box is the Eco Bee Box bracket.
> 
> http://ecobeebox.com/ecobeebox/Home.html
> 
> ...



Beehivestate,

I suspect that you are the owner of the website...

I don't see the advantage of adding a device that opens the joint to the elements.

I can almost purchase a box for the price of a set of corners.


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## beehivestate (Oct 14, 2009)

After reading this thread, really I was besides myself. The traditional box corner is a dado corner and has been around since 1853. Why did they choose this corner, because it was the strongest corner they could make. Problem is there are twice the amount of cut edges that could damage and their fasteners go into end grain. Side problems are when manufacturing them, one mistake and the entire box is trash, painting is required to keep moisture out of the cut edges. Over the years all sorts of paints have been used, but fail year after year. Just look in any bee magazine to prove the point. Purchasing the brackets serve many current problems; never have to dado again; less cut edges on corners; no end grain fasteners; wood can't warp; wood also won't crack due to the constrictive dado cuts; the humidity inside the hive causes probably most of the paint failure; leaving the panels natural allows everything to breathe; if a panel breaks it is simple to remove and replace it saving many hours repairing; the box can be thrown and won't break; the problems due to frame rests breaking is solved; also have added locking clips that lines up and holds everything together. You can paint the panels used with the Eco Bee Box, or left natural it is an option. How many problems do you need to encounter with a traditional box and how many hours fixing it when a solution is there that solves all of them and is stronger in the end.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Properly painted (alkyd primer followed by high quality paint) and box joints will last indefinitely. Note that you must PROPERLY paint the joints -- they must be tight or filled completely, you MUST use a good primer, and you must use high quality paint that sticks well.

Repainting is only required every decade or so -- my brother's boxes look new and they have been in use for seven years now. May repaint any that are not in use this winter just for the hell of it, but done right it's not a big deal.

I still think that properly made boxes with box joints in good lumber properly painted are permanent. I certainly make all of mine as if that were the case, wrong place to save money.

"naturally weathered" pine will rot in a few years.

Peter


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I support Psfreds claims ALMOST, they will last a long time, but not forever. The supers(deeps) that my father and Grandfather built in the 40's are still functional, but the repair pieces on the top and bottom are numerous. They have reached the end of their economic life. 

Crazy Roland


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## beehivestate (Oct 14, 2009)

Quite the boxes you have. I personally have hundreds of traditional dado boxes that are warped, cracked, chipped, peeling, bowed and so forth. I have boxes that I had purchased two years ago that by the time I got the boxes home they changed enough they couldn't fit into each other without damaging the panel. It sounds as though you don't ever do repairs to your boxes either, must have been good wood back then in the 40's. Each large outfit I come across, I take pictures of their equipment, and they ALL are peeling, cracked, warping, hive tool damage, frame rests broken, and so forth. In a phone call to a my bee supplier in California last year, I asked what they do with their old boxes. Response, "we spend countless hours refurbishing our boxes each year". I am a General Contractor and have worked with wood since I was first able to walk. The dado corner is the worst part of the bee box. The second worst part of the box is the 3/8" x 5/8" frame rest. Sealants, paints, or whatever a person chooses to protect the wood is always a good option as long as it does it's job and doesn't fail, doesn't harm the bees, and in repairing doesn't hurt the beekeeper. So many additives are and have been in paints throughout the last 100 years that are harmful. Putting nails into end grain like a pin cushion is also a very weak way to fasten a box. The screw or nail absorbs the moisture in the wood, either from the outside of the box or from the humidity the bees create on the inside of the box, then rusts and rots the wood around the fastener. The natural way for the board to go once the fastener is weak is out.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Apparently I was less than precise in my wording:

The deeps from the 40's have most of the upper and lower edges already replaced. They have been repainted probably once a decade. Most likely, only a fraction (quarter) of them survive, so we are seeing the best of the best from that time period. It is my opinion that although they are still serviceable, they do not function as well as a new super, and that they are at the end of their service life. Their time is up.

Crazy Roland


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Roland...Unless you are moving your boxes, the more dilapidated your boxes are, the better. I used to tell everyone, first thing you need to do to a new box is, grab a ball ping hammer and give it a good working over. Bees will survive better in boxes that don't fit well, are not air tight, and leak. 

cchoganjr


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## gunter62 (Feb 13, 2011)

I like my “cheapo” plywood boxes I made. I got 21 8-frame mediums from 2 sheets of 3/8'' sheathing and 2 8' 2x4s. I mitered the corners and doubled the ends, then ripped 3/8'' strips from the 2x4s and glued and stapled these to the top and bottom of the long sides. The corners are well glued and stapled and the boxes are quite rigid. Cutout took about 2 hours and assembly between 3 and 4.

I consider these to be temporary boxes as I hope to begin selling a few nucs next year and these will be part of the deal. I did give all the boxes a coat of exterior stain that I applied with a cheap sprayer.

I really like the cleats at the top and bottom. It gives a good handhold and stiffens the sides. They also make the exterior dimensions a standard size for mix and match.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Cleo - I understand your theory, and it might be a good one where you are, but a Wisconsin January is rather brutal, and drafts can be deadly.

Crazy Roland


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

I have tendency to do everything in my own way. Since bees are only hobby, I feel I do not need to stick to beekeepers dogmas. When I inherited bees in old semi-decomposed boxes, deteriorated finger-joints amused my bee-inexperienced soul. Finger-joints (in my understanding) has a large contact area, which is beneficial for gluing. It is used in furniture. But in the hive? Weird - glue is not used (at lest in my old boxes). Instead glue, nails has been placed in every segment! Nails made a path to water inside the wood and there is not much solid wood for stability (between nail and end/side of the finger) left. I apologize for criticizing the dogma, but, it seems to me that this type of joint with nails is not really suitable for boxes exposed to weather and humidity from inside. Also, hive-tool easily destroys the top/bottom joints. Large non-sealed surface between "fingers" works to disadvantage - it is perfect place to accumulate the water from outside and from *inside* the hive. It is called "capillary forces" - they will keep water between finger joints. From this prospective, butt joint is better - smaller surface for water. I made a few boxes using butt joints glued with liquid nails and screwed by quite strong screws (compensation for weak joint). Exposed side of the plank was sealed using high-quality primer/sealer. Screws were placed 1/4'deep in the wood, patched with epoxy and sealed. I have also a few new "classical" boxes. So, in 10 years, I shall report if any difference between two designs. Sergey


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I don't see where you are going to have enough material to put dowels in after the edges are mitered. My first thought was the lock miter joint.
http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_lockmiter.html

Keep in mind you will have moisture issue from inside the hive as well as out.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Note that you must use hot dip galvanized, not polymer coated, nails if you expect them not to rust. Those fancy new polymer "fake zinc" coatings do not survive the passage of the nail through wood, so you are using a bare steel nail, and it will rust in a few years. Honest-to-pete zinc galvanized nails, covered with alkyd primer, will NOT rust.

Modern glue (Titebond III or polyurethane) will prevent all the problems of bare wood surfaces in the joints, and I would expect new boxes, properly cared for, to outlast ones made in the 40's for that reason -- in those days, glue choices were limited, and I would expect most time none was used at all.

Boxes were much cheaper only a few years ago, so replacing them was just part of keeping bees, not really so much of a big deal. These days, not taking care of boxes to make them last as long as possible is a way to lose big money. Look at it this way -- if you buy premium paint at $30 a gallon, it costs about $0.60 to paint a box. If that box then needs painting every say 5 years, but lasts 25 years, is it cheaper to buy a new $10 box every ten years instead? I think not. If you buy off-color paint, the cost becomes negligable other than the time to paint them, and even that isn't a huge expense if you paint them BEFORE the old paint fails.

I also suspect that deteriorating boxes waste more time in the field than rotating them and painting them would if planned for. Waiting until they are rotting and falling apart and then trying to fix them won't work very well, I think.

Peter


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Good thread. I built a couple more bottom boards this weekend from 2x4 stock here is the link that was provided to me: 
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/bottomboard/bottomboard.htm
the 1/8”cloth and paint is the most expensive part. Seems like I have nothing original to say but to just build it. I would say if you are going to do plywood I use T1-11 exterior siding for all my nucs. I find it is less expensive at the lumber store I go to than the big box plywood and I have not had it come apart (yet).
Bush Bees is on the same size everything kick and he uses mediums. I wish I had heard it before I started.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Psfred wrote:

I would expect new boxes, properly cared for, to outlast ones made in the 40's for that reason -- in those days, glue choices were limited, and I would expect most time none was used at all.

I agree. 

As for nails, we have found Maze double dipped galvanized nails from Peru Illinois to be the best.

Cerezha - a frequent coat of good paint, hopefully with a lot of linseed oil in it, will overcome all your concerns with end grain, and seal the nail.

Crazy Roland


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Roland
I agree that proper gluing and paint would address many issues, but I still uncomfortable with nails - the finger is too small to accommodate a standard size nail. I made a few standard mediums - all these nails... How many, 40 per box? Whoever invented this design - it is just too complicated for people like me without tradition behind. If it is a butt joint and screws, you could easily unscrew damaged panel and replace it if necessary (in such case screws must be open). Similarly - the frame. In another thread, people discussed how many nails they use per one frame - 20!!!!!! Manual labor! I guess, for true beekeepers, classical hardware is the way to go, but not for me... I simplified the box, I use 1x2 plank and screws for handles and I use top bar from the frame for foundationless "frame". Right now, I have approximately the same number of classical and modified boxes. Hopefully, I'll keep my hobby long enough to see a difference. The thing is that I am a hobbyist, I could afford what I am doing and I am doing it for fun (and some honey). Commercial beekeeping is entirely different. I would never do it commercially - too risky and stressful! 

By the way, Roland - oil-based paint? Here in California, forget it! It is banned in CA, only latex and may be acrylic.... I love linseed oil, but, unfortunately, it is not doing well in CA - too much heat and UV. I tried, it stayed for 6 mo may be... 
Sergey


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Christian says 36 - 7 d nails, and 4 - 5 d per deep. 

We have tried Soyguard, a soy product, with good results. That should please the tree huggers. It acts like linseed oil, but cleans up with water. 

Can you buy Rustoleum 7715 silver? We mix 2 parts linseed and one part Rustoleum for our old equipment.

Crazy Roland


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Roland
many thanks, I definitely will try. But, you know, SoCal weather... our biggest enemy is sun and UV. In Russia, we used to coat the whole log-houses with boiled linseed oil and it stays for decades - beautiful golden color! Here, linseed oil fails so quickly! Recently we completely re-did the trim on the house. Since they forbid oil-base paint, we need to remove all old oil-based paint (I love oil), sand, prime everything and paint with latex... The guy who did paint job told me that actually, latex is better in our area because it does not dry out as much as oil-based paint. When it dry - it cracks... a lot of learning... I definitely will see if Rustoleum 7715 silver and Soyguard available here. Have a nice day, Sergey


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