# Honey House and sumps



## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

First year for using a clarifier as a sump. My operation is a maxant senior and a 20/30 Danant. I had to set the float switch pretty low but work fine once I found the sweet spot. Other wise it would back up into the spinner. Clarifier is sitting about a 1 1/2" inchs off the floor. It was holding maybe 4 5" inchs of honey before it was pump into a settling tank. This whole set up was new to me this year and was very happy with how it work out. Now I need a bigger settling tank.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Give yourself some time and thought and decide where best to cut a hole in the floor and set the sump in the floor. Once you bolt your extractors down you aren't going to want to move them either. So study your layout possibilities and just do it. If you are going to have a drain in the sump tank hole you might want to have the drain empty into the loading dock. Unless you planned on sending it out the side of your building.

Do you already have a building with a concrete floor already poured? How close to your loading dock will your extractors be? Could the sump sit on the dock floor or on a platform in the corner of the dock? Could you post a drawing of your floor plan?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

One thing to consider, even if you install an in floor sump, in 10 years you can always fill it in when things change to an above floor system.
Sometimes those :no: infloor systems are the most practical. 
I hate them lol


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## ABruce (Dec 27, 2013)

I was going to convert an existing building for the honey house, but the amount of work it needs has me thinking new from scratch. I am currently looking at a 30 by 40 building with a Gambriole roof, 12 foot walls and a loading dock , My theroy is in slab heat with an extra circuit for the hot room. A hot room about 12 by 15. That would leave me a space about 15 by 28 for extraction, and a long bay 15 by 40 that would be storage. 
I bought all the existing equipment from a gentleman who was retiring and he had everything heated by a single hot water tank and a recirculating pump. But his set up was very labor intensive and awkward to move about .
I really want to get this as close to perfect as possible.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

If I remember right Householder wish he had gone taller like 16' not much add expenses.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Or go two story with the extractor upstairs, and the tanks down stairs. I have seen pumps fail, but never gravity.

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

ABruce said:


> I really want to get this as close to perfect as possible.


 Good luck with that.  

Don't sacrifice the good in search of perfection.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Sometimes flexible beets perfect.

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Keep your options as open as possible. Think about how you are going to let out the bees you bring in and how to keep bees out that are trying to get in.


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## PerryBee (Dec 3, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> Keep your options as open as possible. Think about how you are going to let out the bees you bring in and how to keep bees out that are trying to get in.


 A little off topic, but when I bring supers into my honey house I stack them 9 high put a bee escape on top and then another bee escape upside down over it. After 2 days any bees in the stack are stuck between the 2 escapes and are "liberated" outside. Seems to work well for me.
As for my sump (36" Dadant), it sits on the floor and works OK for me. I only run 100 colonies though.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I poured up my hole and then had a custom heated sump made to fit. It's a 70 gallon, but the pump float is set to start pumping at 50 gallons. Really don't be afraid of putting the hole in. They fill back in easier then they are made.

If I lived in the hills, I like Roland two story deal, because pumps do fail and most the time when your not watching.


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

Our food inspecter takes a dim view of in floor sumps. In time they tell me that any place with them will not get approved.


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## homegrown (Jul 24, 2016)

Abruce, what is your plan for wall panels? Are you going with drywall and paint? I am building a new honey house right now as well. I’m looking at FRP panels instead of drywall. The frp panels look a little tricky to glue up.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

FRP board isn't hard. Notch trowel spread The appropriate glue. Put sheet up and a j roller or the bigger one done. Put the. Connector Strip in and do the next one.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I looked into FRP when I was building a new honey house. The price and the what if's changed my mind. Corrugated steel work out great on wall and ceilings. If you ever need to change anything in the walls you just unscrew the panels and then put it back when done. Inter corrugated panels are about a 1/3 of the cost of FRP, and they go up faster.


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## homegrown (Jul 24, 2016)

Good to know. Did you pass inspection with the corrugated steel? Do you have a picture?


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## ABruce (Dec 27, 2013)

First, thanks to everyone who has contributed, I really appreciate your advice. 
On the sump, DGL1948 what are you using ? I have talked to CFIA and I am told if I seal the concrete and ideally install a drain our inspector can not see an issue. I would still like to find a practical way to not have one. 

On the wall paneling our inspector told me about the metal panels. He told me others he has dealt with found it cost effective and it passes his requirements. I am looking at the West steel wall panels and they are cheaper locally than the FRP panels. I am still looking at construction methods, but considering using SIP panels which is foam covered with OSB on both sides. If I go that route, I can just attach the steel panels direct to it.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Member _Ian_ has a wealth of honey house photos here (including steel panel interior walls and ceiling):
http://www.stepplerfarms.com/StepplerHoney.html

(you may have to click the "Honey House Gallery" at that link)


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

ABruce said:


> First, thanks to everyone who has contributed, I really appreciate your advice.
> On the sump, DGL1948 what are you using ? I have talked to CFIA and I am told if I seal the concrete and ideally install a drain our inspector can not see an issue. I would still like to find a practical way to not have one.
> 
> On the wall paneling our inspector told me about the metal panels. He told me others he has dealt with found it cost effective and it passes his requirements. I am looking at the West steel wall panels and they are cheaper locally than the FRP panels. I am still looking at construction methods, but considering using SIP panels which is foam covered with OSB on both sides. If I go that route, I can just attach the steel panels direct to it.


We use the large sump made by Maxant. You just never know what the food inspectors are going to come up with. They seem about as stable as the weather. Our honey house has the metal panels that are corrigated with a white finish. The gap at the bottom of each corrigation is filled with a sloped stirofoam piece. Just make sure it is painted if you want to pass inspection. Our floor is done with an epoxy paint. It seems to be standing up well and is easy to clean. Our inspector had issues with the waste system as well. It had to be a stand alone system and could not be shared with any other building. And god forbid they find any wood in the extracting room.


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## honeyhunters (Sep 15, 2015)

Hello everyone Honeyhunters from the down under again. We have a 20 years old stainless steel honey sump. The sump has two layers, the base with some coils which steam will run through them. We also add water to this bottom chamber to make the whole chamber become a warm water bath. The top chamber will have honey on it so that the honey will then be transferred to a heat exchange. The two chambers bottom and top are separated with a welded stainless steel floor. We use simon’s boiler for the steam. 
A couple of months ago, the boiler broke. We replaced a new one which is the same as the old one. When we did the first extraction it was too hot because the PSI is up to 100. Then the manufacturer told us to use a steam trap.
Here is where the problem begins:
Once the steam trap was installed by a plumber and the extraction machine was on, the floor separating the two chambers in the sump was convex and water came through from the sides. We thought that the steam was too powerful to damage the floor anyway it is an old mate.
We took the honey sump to a profession welding factory to fix it but also has added one in and one outlet so that we can either use the steam or the hot water to do extraction. While we are still waiting for the pressure reducing valve, we tried the hot water system. The hot water comes from a rain tank and being heated by solar panels to a degree of 70C. We turned the hot water system on with our plumber beside us. Just the cold water was in the bottom chamber, no steam, no heat. But the stainless floor became convex again! And two corners became wrinkled. Our plumber and us do not have a clue what has happened. Has anyone of you experienced similar thing? We need some brain tanks here. Any advice will be helpful.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Not sure I follow everything in your post. Immediate thought is it could be a dangerous situation if you are playing with 100 psi. steam and alterations in a vessel. 

I dont know how your trade designations relate to steam related issues, both in regard to fabricating and altering pressure vessels. In Canada there is a sharp divide between qualifications of a plumber and a steamfitter. Usually a trade level plumber or even a steamfitter or pressure vessel welder should not be making design changes or repairs on vessels.

Stainless steel has a very large dimension change with a given temperature change and also distortion from welding. This may be an influence. If pressure from the coil is leaking out into space between the bulkheads this could be the cause of the wrinkling and shape shifting.

Detail drawings would help as the description leaves some things open for interpretation.


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## honeyhunters (Sep 15, 2015)

crofter said:


> Not sure I follow everything in your post. Immediate thought is it could be a dangerous situation if you are playing with 100 psi. steam and alterations in a vessel.
> 
> I dont know how your trade designations relate to steam related issues, both in regard to fabricating and altering pressure vessels. In Canada there is a sharp divide between qualifications of a plumber and a steamfitter. Usually a trade level plumber or even a steamfitter or pressure vessel welder should not be making design changes or repairs on vessels.
> 
> ...


Hi Frank,
Please find the narration, photographs and measurements from the attached file. Many many thanks for your reply.

Simon
Honeyhunters
View attachment tank problems.pdf


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## HiveOnTheHill (Jun 17, 2011)

ABruce said:


> First, thanks to everyone who has contributed, I really appreciate your advice.
> On the sump, DGL1948 what are you using ? I have talked to CFIA and I am told if I seal the concrete and ideally install a drain our inspector can not see an issue.


I would say the bigger issue (rather than a drain) with in-floor sumps is the potential for contamination and foreign objects falling into the sump/pit. You are walking, kicking debris, sweeping, washing the floor etc any number of things can happen and it will always fall down. Yes you will have the sump covered, but we all know it is not 100% of the time. If you have an above floor sump, all of this risk is removed or substantially reduced.


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