# Advice for marketing queens



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Are you a member of a local bee club? Like the Rochester or Fingerlakes Beekeepers? Seems like you could have more demand than product if you were. 

Go hang out where the Pollinators hang during apple blossom. I bet you could sell some to them too. What's that Diner in "downtown" Walcott?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Market them? You really don't need to do much... Most people in the North raising good queens have wait lists.

My main piece of advice is don't buy mother queens from a breeder in California and than pass her daughters off as "Northern Queens". If you want to sell "northern queens" raise them off of the hives you have had for a few winters or at least buy the mother queens from somebody who actually raised and bred her in this part of the country.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I think the local bee clubs is a good avenue as well.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

If this is your first year raising queens, then you'll likely be making around 50? If you're planning on making 500 then marketing would be a bigger issue. If you're starting small (50-70), then finding a new home for them should not be a problem and the suggestions above are good ones. Quality queens pretty much sell themselves. Focus on your techniques, particularly on drone sources and provide plenty of time to evaluate the young queens' performance.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If the price is right, and we can meet somewhere between each other, I'd take 50 to 100 in June. What are you looking at for a price? How many are you planning on producing?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

AstroBee said:


> Focus on your techniques, particularly on drone sources and provide plenty of time to evaluate the young queens' performance.


When does plenty of time equate to an old queen?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> If the price is right,


Let us know which one of these prices are right: 70,60,50,40,30,20,10.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

>When does plenty of time equate to an old queen? 

I'll let you or others define that, but there's been plenty of discussion about giving a minimum of three weeks post mating for a new queen to fully develop. The point is that after three weeks she has adequately settled down and developed, and hopefully there will be less mystery on her eventual performance. I know I'd pay more for a queen that went through such an evaluation compared to one that was caged upon the first sight of an egg.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Let us know which one of these prices are right: 70,60,50,40,30,20,10.


Why? You selling some too? First year growing and selling queens? $10.00 would be worth me taking the chance.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

AstroBee said:


> I know I'd pay more for a queen that went through such an evaluation compared to one that was caged upon the first sight of an egg.


Really? How much more? Considering that queens commonly sell for $25.00 each, $20.00 or $17.50 each if you buy 100 at a time, would you pay $30.00 or even $35.00 each for one that was evaluated after three weeks?

Here's another question. Suppose you buy a queen which is grown buy someone selling thousands of queens. They are going to put a cell in a mating nuc and less than a week later they are going to harvest that queen for sale. (i think that's right. someone will correct me.) What is the producer going to see three weeks later?
Will that queen be a better queen than the one harvested earlier?
Will that queen be more or less acceptable to a nuc?

Realistically what is the difference?

Were I to produce queens w/ a three week evaluation I think I would want $50.00 each.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Bottom fish and you get suckers...... $10 a queen????

When everyone else is selling them at 50-80% higher my question is what have you figured out that no one else has about the production costs of queens? 

By the way its usually a two week cycle.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Mark,

Yes, I would absolutely pay more for a queen that was undisturbed for the 3 weeks after mating and was then expertly evaluated for brood pattern, size, runniness, etc. I've raised enough queens to know that just because a queen gets mated, doesn't necessarily imply that she'll be a good one. I've also bought enough queens from suppliers that don't do this level of evaluation to know that quality is spotty. Russell claims that this is the protocol that is used on his production queens - one day I plan to try his queens. VP Queens sells non-II queens that have passed specific evaluation criteria for $80, so yes this certainly does add to the cost of queens. I'm not suggesting that you should run out and pay $8000 for your next 100 queens, but better queens can have a potential payoff. Don't you agree? Of course "better" comes from many elements within a breeding program, not simply a 3-week eval.

Of, say, the 100 queens that you get, how many are what you would consider as high quality queens? 70%, 80%, 90% ? What would be the benefit to your end of season yields if you had a higher percentage of excellent queens? This might give you the opportunity to do additional splits, or higher overall honey yields. 

So, are you convinced? If so, can I book your order for 100 queens at $35 each


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Realistically what is the difference?


If there is no difference than why wouldn't you pay 17.00 for mine?


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I have queens from local (Syracuse, Michael Johnston). I have some survivor stock from a beek in Rochester, also from swarms that I know issued from a tree (these really exploded in 10 frame) That were in the tree for years. I hope to buy queens from Michael Palmer in Aug. I want northern stock for sure.

I was surprised that the Fingerlakes Beekeeping assoc bought 60 nucs from the south when it seemed to me that supporting local beeks was a better approach.

A bunch of beeks from Livingston talked about a local club, everybodies BIZZEE.

I went from 2 hives to 60 in very short order & I expect that I will push myself to go big (ok go bigger than small) or go home(prolly broke). I have a lot of rearing stuff I bought w/the biz I bought. The bees that I bought from a Northern Pa beek are quite gentle.

Like anything I will attempt to get as much as the market will pay. Probably $20-25 each. 

H4all. 2 week cycle?

Astro, can you explain the drone sources? In another thread I asked about drone frames ; when to install & why. Like most threads too many questions in one thread are too many questions that get zero attention.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Honey-4-All said:


> Bottom fish and you get suckers...... $10 a queen????
> 
> When everyone else is selling them at 50-80% higher my question is what have you figured out that no one else has about the production costs of queens?
> 
> By the way its usually a two week cycle.


As far as I know the OPer has little or no experince grafting and growing queens. Besides, it was an offer. A starting point? What would you pay?


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Mark, Only queens I grew last yr were from cells. (I guess I was more of a harvester than a grower) 
Who all do you know out this way?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

AstroBee said:


> Mark,
> 
> Yes, I would absolutely pay more for a queen that was undisturbed for the 3 weeks after mating and was then expertly evaluated for brood pattern, etc., etc.
> 
> So, are you convinced? If so, can I book your order for 100 queens at $35 each


So tell me, do folks who do that evaluate each and every one, or do they evaluate some from each batch? I would think that such evaluations would add to the cost of production and would delay production and sales.

I'm sure there is a lot I don't know about what many and most queen producers do and how and why they do what they do.

No thanks. My queen budget isn't that flush.

When I buy queens, the criteria has usually been cost and availability. Being alive and available when I want them may be a poor criteria for buying queens, but that has been what I can do. Not what I want to do, but what I can do. Credit is something I have been able to get from only a very few personal queen rearing friends.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I initially began growing queens to meet my own needs. Next I expanded into selling nucs that were headed by the queens I grew. I only got into selling queens and cells, due to the many customer requests.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> If there is no difference than why wouldn't you pay 17.00 for mine?


Obviously there is a difference between a queen raised by Lynn Barton, a queen rearer w/ years of experience, such as w/ Kona Queens, and a queen raised by someone w/ less queen rearing experience than I have. I'd be better of, or at least as well off, rearing my own. I'd be paying you for your eyes and time.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

A lot of the quality of a queen is from nurture and not nature. I suggest you actually spend a few years learning how to raise queens for yourself. When you have something good and can show them off and how well they produce and how healthy they are...then put them up for sale and they'll sell themselves. Try selling them before you truly have got the kinks worked out and you'll wind up like a few of the folks on the BS Consumer Guide. 

Patience Grasshopper.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I think the higher prices have more to do with breeder reputation than it does for quality of queen or production cost. What I mean is you can own one of these 100 and something dollar AI mated queen mothers and be raising the best queens anybody ever saw, but until people know who you are they are not going to pay much for them. 

Sqk I have some package queens I will sell you for 10.00 each come June. It would only be a dozen or so that I am replacing as I have some Ferguson queens ordered to replace them. Rather than popping them I figured I would offer them cheap to somebody see as they would be fresh out of this seasons packages.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lakebilly said:


> Astro, can you explain the drone sources? In another thread I asked about drone frames ; when to install & why. Like most threads too many questions in one thread are too many questions that get zero attention.


How many queen rearing books do you have and how many have you read? Are you self taught or have you taken any queen rearing courses?


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Master Po (MP), b4 you package & send yours off, what is your evaluation procedure like?

I would very much like to get a few of your queens in Aug if I can. How would/could that happen?

I am more of a patient than something I should have. Walking the rice paper, snatching the pebbles b4 I can raise queens? Thanx.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lakebilly said:


> Mark, Only queens I grew last yr were from cells. (I guess I was more of a harvester than a grower)
> Who all do you know out this way?


Winters, Colliers, Pat Bono from Rochester, Eric Sprout, Doans, Jerry from Wixson Honey Co., others. I used to know a number of folks in Oswego Co. when I inspected down that way. Used to know all sorts when I inspected Monroe, Orleans and Niagara.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If folks would pay more for a two week evaluated queen, what would you pay for an overwintered queen? 20% more? 30%? 50%?


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Mark, I have Contemporary Queen rearing (H. Laidlaw), Increase essentials ( J. Connor) I have read every thread here on QR three times. I am self taught & very fascinated. I have read OT, J Clemens, Mr. Russell, Velbert, ETCETERA ETCETERA...
My eyesight is probably my biggest challenge as far as grafting goes. I bought a large articulating lighted magnifine glass. I will probably use the graftless. I am now building swarm boxes, mating nucs....I know that doing is WAY better than head knowledge.

I think I have heard Pat Bono talk @ FingerLakesBA. or Ontario Cty?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I hope you do well rearing queens. Maybe I will buy some of them from you. We'll see.


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## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

lakebilly said:


> I was surprised that the Fingerlakes Beekeeping assoc bought 60 nucs from the south when it seemed to me that supporting local beeks was a better approach.


They are indeed supporting a New York beekeeper, Chuck Kutik. I assume that the reason he starts his nucs in South Carolina is so they will be ready in the spring when customers want them.


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## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

Lakebilly, I recommend that you get a copy of Practical Queen Production in the North by Carl Jurica. The book is 25 years old but he has some interesting ideas for raising queens in this climate (such as using insulated hives for an early start to the season) and lots of good tips on raising queens in general. Plus if you like bee books this is a personalized copy signed by the author and would be a nice addition to your collection.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Last year was my first time rearing queens in any kind of a routine - I think I produced about 50. Most of them looked good, and produced good patterns - very good patterns from some. Not all of them actually seemed to do all that great heading up hives. The differences are getting easy to see by now. This year I think I'm going to concentrate on producing nucs to overwinter.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

JA, will check it out soon. Thanx.


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## belliott (Apr 17, 2011)

I think the evaluation process is a great idea, however there are several breeders that raise outstanding queens with good genetics and so on. I think you should work on your process and shipping to be "johnny on the spot". When people need queens they want them now, be the supplier that gets them their queens. It's going to be very difficult to compete with Dr. Russell when someone wants to improve genectics or traits, because they are willing to wait. If a guy smashed his queen while splitting boxes, he is probaly not interested in waiting on a Russell queen


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> A lot of the quality of a queen is from nurture and not nature. I suggest you actually spend a few years learning how to raise queens for yourself. When you have something good and can show them off and how well they produce and how healthy they are...then put them up for sale and they'll sell themselves. Try selling them before you truly have got the kinks worked out and you'll wind up like a few of the folks on the BS Consumer Guide.
> 
> Patience Grasshopper.


Sage advice, straight from the horses mouth. Crawl first, then walk, then run when you have to but mostly keep walking.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

lakebilly said:


> Master Po (MP), b4 you package & send yours off, what is your evaluation procedure like?
> 
> I would very much like to get a few of your queens in Aug if I can. How would/could that happen?
> 
> I am more of a patient than something I should have. Walking the rice paper, snatching the pebbles b4 I can raise queens? Thanx.


First, is she laying? Then, does she have any physical damage...gimp leg, broken wing. Then how large is she...large thorax with pronounced cleft. Large hairy legs. Long plump abdomen. Since I catch at day 16 after cell, I don't really know if she's mated so occassionally I get a drone layer...maybe a couple times during the season. If she was shipped, I replace. Doesn't happen often. Did have one event where a friend in VA got 5. That's the worst I ever saw.

So if she looks good and is laying well, she gets caged with 7 or 8 attendants. If she's small, or damaged in any way, she gets the axe.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

lakebilly said:


> I would very much like to get a few of your queens in Aug if I can. How would/could that happen?


[email protected]


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I have no grandiose ideas of being a big producer of queens. I wouldn't rule out a cpl - few hundred a yr. 
Maybe I implied different. I will leave it open ended. 
I don't want to have to bank a bunch if I am successful, & I do think big alot. I make my living now from word of mouth & I expect to evaluate my queens for quality. 
I would suggest to anyone that is looking for super queens to be patient for Mr. Russell's, I am not going to that level.

What's with...Pronounced cleft? Large hairy legs? Michael can you stick to evaluating Queens not girls?

Michael, do you use drone frames, when do you install them?

What portion of your resources do you use to raise how many queens?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Many times the best queen is a live queen.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Many times the best queen is a live queen.


I was wondering that also. If the queen was just damaged, broken wing or leg the hive would replace her but it would still be with her genes.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I was thinking that putting her in a nuc and using brood to boost others couldn't hurt.

Master P is a Shaolin Jedi 4 a reason!

Anybody want to address the drone frame, source question?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>>I have no grandiose ideas of being a big producer of queens. I wouldn't rule out a cpl - few hundred a yr. 
Maybe I implied different. I will leave it open ended. 
I don't want to have to bank a bunch if I am successful, & I do think big alot. I make my living now from word of mouth & I expect to evaluate my queens for quality. <<

Use standard nucleus colonies to mate your virgins AND to bank your queens. Look at your nucs as queens with support staff. Changes the whole equation. Don't sell summer queens, sell spring nucs. 

>>What's with...Pronounced cleft? Large hairy legs? Michael can you stick to evaluating Queens not girls?<<

Can't help it if I'm in love with a beautiful queen. I find them so very attractive.

>>Michael, do you use drone frames, when do you install them?<<

I don't. I have plenty of drone comb in my hives anyway.

>>What portion of your resources do you use to raise how many queens?<<

I need 20 strong colonies to be used as cell builders. Also two strong three story nucleus colonies to support the cell builder. I reuse the cell builder every 20 days giving it brood from the nucs...above an excluder. If the queen slows down I axe her and give them a nuc below the excluder along with the brood above the excluder. 45 grafts into this cell builder usually results in 40-43 cells avg.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> I was wondering that also. If the queen was just damaged, broken wing or leg the hive would replace her but it would still be with her genes.


Actually I've used broken leg queens and had them lay well and last a couple years. I could never ship something like that. 

But broken wing is different. She can't mate if she can't fly.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Michael, what would differentiate 'long' hairy w/short? what is a cleft thorax? 
Any pics of what you consider exceptional queens?

Trevor have any of your stock? I would ask him, I think he is traveling. He gave me a cpl cells that went wildly productive.

I have enough 5 frame nuc boxes to do 100 dbl deeps. : ) 

Do you have a pic of your multiple mating nucs?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Actually I've used broken leg queens and had them lay well and last a couple years. I could never ship something like that.
> 
> But broken wing is different. She can't mate if she can't fly.


Well I wouldn't expect you would ship them unless the customer knew of their condition. It wouldn't take long to find out if the queen was mated and I am sure many local beeks would love to get one of your queens for a bargain even if it was hurt. I suppose it is a time issue.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Not sure if Trevor has anything left or not. 

Hairy legs and cleft thorax










4 way showing 2 sides


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

A few observations on starting out selling. 

1. Always be honest. If someone asks how long you have been doing this, or how experienced you are, be straight with them. Let your price adjust according to the quality of the queens you produce and the amount of experience you have. First few years, that's going to mean a lower price than the average is. If you end up selling queens too fast because you arn't charging, you just "bought" yourself a good reputation base with those lost profits. It's a good deal in the end. When you sell out, that's when you know you should raise your prices. 

For me, if I met someone who wanted to sell me a queen (or had queens to sell) at $25, but I found out after ordering that it was his first year grafting, I would be a little upset. I can get a queen from a reputable breeder for that price, and I have to take the risk that your queens won't be of fantastic quality. That risk should be associated in the price. Instead, if you tell me you are new, but you want to make great queens and loyal customers, and offer me the queens at $17, at that point I know what I'm getting into, and the risk of getting a poor queen is priced accordingly ($8). If I do order queens, and they end up phenomenal, next year I'd be willing to buy for more.

2. Always stand by your product. If you give away a drone layer, replace it at no cost. If there is a problem with introduction, replace her at no cost. If I know that going into it, I don't have a problem paying a little more. If its a buyer be ware, or "as-is" sale, and you don't have the reputation to back it up, again I would expect it to be reflected in the price. Buying an "as-is" car from a car dealer should be cheaper than buying the same one with a "limited warranty," same holds true for queens.

3. Focus on local markets, local queens. The marketplace is growing for those kinds of queens.

4. First year or two, be known as the guy that has queens sitting by, in case of emergency. If a beek has 3 hives, and crushes the queen, he can either do a combine, wait for an e-cell, or call you. The first two don't always work, but make it known that the third will.


Grow small, grow steady. Most queen producers that I've talked to sell out every year. Don't worry about marketing, worry about putting out a shoddy product or pricing yourself out of the market.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

SK,
You pretty much described the way that I run my business now. I don't expect to change what has worked for me for 30+ years.

Q. What's the chance your going to have a good pattern layer that turns into a drone layer?

I don't expect to be a long distance supplier, small & local. 

32 of my hives I bought from a beek that sold queens for a living. 10+ of my hives are from Michael Johnston (Syracuse) 2-3 of my hives came from someone that worked w/MPalmer & I think they maybe relatives to his, I don't know, they exploded after a cpl weeks. 
I think I have good stock. Methinks it will be a matter of whether or not I can bring the skills/timing to the process. I wouldn't know a quality qn without a broodpattern to look at, & of course that's not the only telltale sign.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I'll go back to what Mark said. If you got one that is living and they got one that isn't then yours is better than theirs until proven otherwise.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lakebilly said:


> Q. What's the chance your going to have a good pattern layer that turns into a drone layer?


I don't know how one would calculate the answer to your question, if you mean what are thge odds that a good queen will turn bad. I wouldn't worry about that at this time. You have a lot of other things to be concerned with. Get your process set up and practice your technique and record keeping.

I could be wrong, but I suspect that a good queen rearer is somewhat anal retentive and methodical. Someone who is very detail oriented, but also able to see the whole process in their mind, knowing where all the parts are and how they are running.

I haven't read the whole book, but Larry Conner writes in his "Queen Rearing Esentials" about doing everything in nuc boxes. Cell builders, finishers, etc. Seems like a good way for a startup to get their techniques down before going bigger. Especially if you are going to raise a hundred or two maximum this year.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I expect to use 5 frame nucs, I have 100+ dbl deeps.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

lakebilly said:


> Q. What's the chance your going to have a good pattern layer that turns into a drone layer?


From my experience, that usually occurs when they arn't properly mated. And that will either be from a series of poor weather when mating flights should occur, and a lack of available drones. As far as the odds, I don't know that.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> I haven't read the whole book, but Larry Conner writes in his "Queen Rearing Esentials" about doing everything in nuc boxes. Cell builders, finishers, etc. Seems like a good way for a startup to get their techniques down before going bigger.


I found his book VERY elementary. I guess you could have assumed so, with a name like "essentials", lol. It's a good first book, or a good shorter book that has the entire process in it, but I didn't really find it to be a good last book on queen rearing. Just my two cents though.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I'm pretty sensitive to this. In fact, when my VA friend told me she received five queens from me that went drone layer, I wrote to my customer list and asked if others had the same problem. Only two replied yes of the 700 I shipped.

I sent queens to Seeley in 2010, and he wrote me this spring thanking me for queens that would actually winter in his Ithaca NY climate. I waited until mid summer of 2011 to reply, asking is any had been superceded or come down with chalk. "Nope, they're lovely bees".

So it does happen. Customers should be aware of that, and producers should be ready to stand behind what they raise and make it good if there are failures. Only God is perfect, and sometimes I even wonder about her.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Michael, 
I don't know where you are in your book writing, but I am sure that you would shoot the moon if you were to make a series of vids "The way of the Jedi". (probly been taken) uh let's see....uh "Shaolin Queen Makers"....."Let Them Eat Royal Jelly", aaah fooogettaboutit!

Lots of vids out there, & I couldn't make one any better than anybody else. Most of them I can't watch very long, the filmer has been drinking all day, hurricane force windsound drowns out person talking, redundancy ad nauseum.....et...ceteraaaa....et......ceteraaaa
Is there a vid from you in the future? "My Fair Lady" a Vermont Beekeepers Quest...

What % of queens get that clefted thorax? What % daughters of clefted queen do you anticipate having clefts?

Obviously a selling point. Mas Dinero? 

How hairy would you qualify the legs on qn in pic? 

Do you use dbl scrn under nucs over 10 frame anytime?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

lakebilly said:


> the filmer has been drinking all day, hurricane force windsound drowns out person talking, redundancy ad nauseum.....et...ceteraaaa....et......ceteraaaa


Result of on the spot narration with no script. Sound is one of the hardest things to get right. It usually doesn't happen when the beekeeper is making the video. For an amature the easiest thing to do is strip off the sound track and voice over it. It makes one heck of a difference to the viewer.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> So it does happen. Customers should be aware of that, and producers should be ready to stand behind what they raise and make it good if there are failures.


I can't speak for everyone, but I seek out breeders who operate like this.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

"One bad word will KILL a thousand good".
You got me once, shame on you. You got me twice, shame on me! 

Just good business to makem smile for a mile.

I asked about the dronelayer potential for a sense of timing. How long should you monitor a queen before you can be confident that you won't have to reship another. I think about the aggravation of a turnaround. I have a small window for production & now I have to wait for a new, possibly another dronelayer to arrive so my gig can go forward. 
Also as the supplier it aint profitable or confidence building to let er fly & hope for the best. I sell trust in my business. The worst sin a person can perpetrate against another is to betray trust. That's a little deep for this conversation, hopefully you get my point. I realize that's not the norm. Building a good rep takes time, hard work, being a good listener that learns from good & bad. I'm up for it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Demand determines what you can do and price affects demand greatly. If the average price of a queen is $30 and you sell them for $10 it is likely you will keep selling them. Even if you don't know what you are doing 1 out of the 3 is bound to be good and more than likely 2 are good enough. People just can't resist bargains.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Ace, 

I have found that cheaper prices make people wonder "what's the catch?" 

It took time for me to break into the local market when I moved here. Time doing what I said I would do, giving references from past satisfied clients, people seeing my truck everywhere, now most times I don't even get requests for references...30+ yrs 25 here, I couldn't run from my reputation if I wanted. 

I understand supply & demand price indexing. I will not work for minimum wage if I don't have to. I couldn't articulate the dominant traits of an Italian queen, a Carnlian, etc. I don't expect to fool anyone, I don't expect that I will command premium dollar whether I achieve premium queens by accident, divine intervention etc. I will be truthful in my dealings & adjust accordingly.

At this point I only expect to do this part time. I am not bett'n the farm on anything. I simply am interested in reality resolutions...what happens if I have 200 queens because for some inexplicable reason by Providence I find an ace up my sleeve. : )


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird, That is some of the dumbest stuff I've read this morning... but it's just 11:15.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> what would you pay for an overwintered queen? 20% more? 30%? 50%?


This is a question I didn't see an answer to, and, I'm interested in this as well. Particularily in the spring, when trying to do splits before drones are available.

Part 2 of the question, how much would you differentiate between a queen thats been banked for the winter, vs one that's been heading a small colony, ie a 4 way for that winter?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

BeeCurious said:


> Acebird, That is some of the dumbest stuff I've read this morning... but it's just 11:15.


Bump
Bump


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

lakebilly said:


> Ace,
> 
> I have found that cheaper prices make people wonder "what's the catch?"


Sure they do but when push comes to shove they buy cheap. Just ask WalMart. As time goes on the acceptance standard lowers to the point where the consumer expects failure. In some cases the quality products are no longer available. Tell me you don't see that in today's markets.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

BC,

Would you qualify your comment "...it's just 11:15...." as "Optimism" or "Pessimism"? : )

Grozzie, Thx for the "I'm interested as well." I ask myself often if my topics have mutual concern.

This is a question I didn't see an answer to, and, I'm interested in this as well. Particularily in the spring, when trying to do splits before drones are available.

Part 2 of the question, how much would you differentiate between a queen thats been banked for the winter, vs one that's been heading a small colony, ie a 4 way for that winter? 

I am wanting a few queens for same reason.

Ace, I have no intention in getting in a bottom dwellers race. I hate the current WalMart!! financing China's war/slave machine. don't get me going.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Since I catch at day 16 after cell, I don't really know if she's mated so occassionally I get a drone layer...maybe a couple times during the season. If she was shipped, I replace. Doesn't happen often.


To me, this is part of basic economics 101. If you get the occaisional dud, but, double the overall numbers by catching on day 16 vs much later, then the potential exists to dramatically decrease cost, which in turn will become higher net, or, lower price, or some happy medium between the two. If overall, 95+ percent of them turn out good, you are way ahead. Stand behind those that turn out bad, and, overall, you will have more happy customers.

The electronics manufacturing industry (my real work) went this route a LONG time ago. Used to be 3 or 4 days of 'burn in' testing on each and every unit shipped, and, in the bad old days, there was a significant percentage that didn't get thru this test phase. But, once the industry reached the point that failures were getting comparatively rare, there was a huge cost advantage to skipping that test phase, then implement a 'no questions asked replacement' policy if a customer had an infant mortality failure in the field. Back in the days of hand soldered circuit boards with discrete components, infant mortality rates were high. In a modern surface mount assembly process, infant mortality rates are at least an order of magnitude lower. There comes a point where it's much cheaper, to just ship them all, and do a 'no questions asked' exchange on the few that have issues.

I think it also makes a huge difference depending on who your customer is. If you ship a rack of 200 to a large user, they will be happy with 195 good ones, and 5 duds, if the price is close to half of the 'tried and proven' that had extra testing time. At the same time, the backyard hobby person ordering 1 or 2, is more likely to be a much louder 'squeaky wheel' and unhappy customer, if one of those two turns out to be one of the very few duds. Two different markets, two different sets of expectations, with one being cost focussed, and the other being quality focussed.

I worked on one project back in the 90's, we were producing components for mass consumer deployment, and, spent an inordant amount of time refining various parts of the process, to reduce 'per each' manufacturing cost. But, once the assembly process was in place, and units were being ground out in large quantity, we had one client that had rather high quality requirements, so, a hundred were plucked off the assembly line, and subjected to a battery of testing before 4 of them ended up with the 'space qualified' blessing. The units coming off the end of the line priced around the $500 point, while the 4 that got the extra special blessing, finally priced out well over 100 times that number. Two of those 4 ultimately went for a trip on the shuttle.

In the case of your batch of 200 queens, going to a domestic quantity user, it's all about keeping the per each cost down. But, if you have a special order from an overseas client, for just a couple queens, that involves spending an inordant amount of time getting shipping and permits in place, etc, the extra cost of 'extra proving' on those two, is just a drop in the overall bucket, and, well worth the time / effort / cost when compared to the overall cost of getting those two out to the final destination.

And hence my prior question on the overwintered stock. To a large scale consumer of the product, it's probably not worth a significant premium for the extra effort involved in producing that stock. But, for the backyard hobby market, where they are dealing in quantity 1 or 2, how much premium is available for the perception of extra quality that can be attributed to a queen or nuc, that's proven itself by withstanding a winter, then successfully building up a colony in the early spring? For the large scale buyer, it's all about statistics of survival, but, for the quantity one or two buyer, it's about 'how well does this particular one do?' One thing I have realized over this last year, commercial honey producers are very prices sensative, but, backyard hobby folks not nearly so much. After spending all the money to get kitted up with 2 hives in the back yard, most are eager to spend whatever it takes to end up with the perception that the particular bees they bought, have a much higher likelihood of making it to next year, over 'run of the mill stuff'. Wether or not that is reality is not the issue, it's the perception that matters in this case. Overwintered survivors seem to bring along this perception, so, the question becomes, what extra value does this bring to the product ? And then ofc, for a large scale producer such as yourself, a follow on question, is any extra premium available from this perception, worth the extra work of dealing with the low quantity orders and all the extra support etc that goes along with servicing the 'quantity 1' market ?


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Michael,

Hoping your still w/us. What would you recommend for us "Northerners" to do about getting northern stock for early splits, & questions to ask perspective suppliers?

groz, nice input.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

grozzie2 said:


> But, once the industry reached the point that failures were getting comparatively rare, there was a huge cost advantage to skipping that test phase,


It may come to a surprise to most people that the medical industry (one that doesn't tolerate duds at least on paper) is discouraged by the FDA to try to attain quality by inspecting and rejecting bad product. Statically they say it can't be done. They want you to control your processes so you know what is coming out the end. I am sure the electronics industry that supplies the space shuttle or aviation industry follow much the same procedures.

I think you are right about the backyard beek or hobby beek looking for assured success, at least on their first hives, and probably willing to pay more. But they do anyway for the reasons you stated, because they are not buying in quantities. I think there is a value for a new beek to buy an overwintered nuc. And I don't see anything wrong with buying a queen from lets say Michael P and doing splits and selling them regardless of how much experience you have. How bad is the quality of those daughter queens going to be?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

What % of queens get that clefted thorax? What % daughters of clefted queen do you anticipate having clefts?

All of them...except the ones that don't. sorry. it seems the small queens have a very small cleft, and almost invisible. Larry Connor told me the cleft is the attachment point...inside the thorax...of the wing muscles. imo, the more pronounced the cleft the better the flight muscles. Can't prove it, but there is a difference among queens, most noticible between small/large queens.

Obviously a selling point. Mas Dinero?

If a good cleft is the way it's supposed to be, how can you charge more for queens with a good cleft. 

How hairy would you qualify the legs on qn in pic?

Good enough 

Do you use dbl scrn under nucs over 10 frame anytime?

never


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

lakebilly said:


> Part 2 of the question, how much would you differentiate between a queen thats been banked for the winter, vs one that's been heading a small colony, ie a 4 way for that winter?


I wouldn't want anything to do with any queens banked for the winter...talking traditional queen bank. now queens wintering in nucleus colonies is a horse of a different color.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

lakebilly said:


> Michael,
> 
> Hoping your still w/us. What would you recommend for us "Northerners" to do about getting northern stock for early splits, & questions to ask perspective suppliers?


i don't know what to say about northern beekeepers obtaining local queens for spring splits. i prefer to make my nucs in June/July, and winter over...young queens in spring.

if you mate queens in something like my 4-way or Queen Castles, the last round of queens can be wintered and some used for spring splits...the rest remain in the mating nucs to keep them going until cells are ready...and then used in the apiary.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

MP,
Can you post a link to your most comprehensive overview of wintering nucs? How small/big are these?

I'm assuming that when you remove a qualified queen from a nuc you introduce a cell after a qnless period to keep the nuc going. how late in your season can you go?

I started a thread in qns & breeding. I was hoping you would comment about feeding cell builders during a dearth. Thx.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

sorry, I have nothing else but what has been posted on BS.

I re-cell the mating nuc the following morning after removing the queen.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Just ask WalMart.


Who is the WalMart of Queen rearers? I definitely want to avoid someone who will give me cheap queens w/out quality or service. I may want cheaply priced queens because that's all I can afford, but I still expect the producer to do a good job and replace dead queens.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

This is a must see on marketing and expectations:

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/dan_gilbert_researches_happiness.html


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Lakebilly,

I think this is what you want :

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?189642-Wintering-Nucs


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Thanks BC!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> but I still expect the producer to do a good job and replace dead queens.


WalMart will replace anything no question about it but you will not get anything for your lost time and you have to get it back to the store.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Acebird said:


> WalMart will replace anything no question about it but you will not get anything for your lost time and you have to get it back to the store.


I don't know about the "no questions asked" part. Last time I took something back it was a barrage of questions.... Why are you returning this? do you have the receipt? Can I see your Drivers license? What is your Phone Number? Will you wait while I call a Manager?


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I am a third year beek. 

I post questions that I think I need to know & I think alot about the subject before I even title it with notion that others may ask the same things. I make a conscientious effort to engage those in the know & those in the need to know for an expected dialog that makes for a productive conversation. I make no bones about the FACT that I am ignorant! I should fully expect that I ask a stupid question, I may get a stupid answer. 1377 views may speak to the question "Is anybody interested?" 
I am guilty as anybody for being ADD, & with very little research you will find some of my comments off the OP's topic & possibly stupid.
I very seldom offer any counsel because of the aforemention ignorance, I am guilty of assuming that what works for me may be of help to somone else.
I respectfully ask that if you have something to productively flavor this conversation please lay it on me. 
I apologize to anyone that happens upon this thread expecting to come away with info commensurate with the topic to read pages of marginally equitable information.
I would like to thank the persons that have added to my knowledge with their time and effort to educate this bumble. THANK YOU.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> I don't know about the "no questions asked" part.


I don't frequent WalMart often if ever so now that their competition is gone they can start to act like them. However it could be a result of the times and they are experiencing heavy losses from returns from stolen goods.


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