# How many out there are treatment free?



## mark c (Apr 5, 2010)

hello I would fit into the treatment free list I supose. I am on either large cell or natural cell, I think I only one time ever measured a natural cell comb here that was actally 4.9 or less. Years ago I used fumidill B and Appistan, but when the Appistan stopped being effective the other stuff looked to scary. Pressently I am useing mostly Purvis Brothers queens or their daughters, genetics is a huge issue. I looked at your local weather and I am wondering why you think the cold killed your bees?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

mark c said:


> ...why you think the cold killed your bees?


I guess that is kind of a simplistic explanation.

Two of them seem to have starved to death because they couldn't break cluster. They were surrounded by stores, probably 3-4 inches away and had decent cluster size. The third one actually survived to the point where their cluster was down to a couple dozen bees and in our February 1st cold snap, they just froze solid. I even recovered the queen to use for swarm bait.

All three had their origins in Georgia, and I don't fault Don, he has good bees, I just don't think they are well suited to our NW Arkansas winters with snaps down to -15 or more. Incidentally, I bought them from him because he is the only one I know of who sells small cell nucs. He does treat with oils though, and that gave me pause, but I wanted small cell bees. He doesn't breed for honey production, though I have no complaint with that, they produce just fine.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

I am.

mike


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## kwest (May 16, 2009)

100% treatment free. nothing going in my hives but a little sugar. and wood frames. i use foundationless frames. I have one colony from koehnen that has wintered well for two winters and is very strong. i have some bees from the fat beeman, and a colony of small black bees that i caught in a swarm that i believe are well suited for our area. they have wintered in a small cluster and seem to be doing great. i agree that its all about genetics.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

everyone that has treatment free bees that die blame it on something else. they probley died from mites. we have to learn to live with it.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

beeware10 said:


> everyone that has treatment free bees that die blame it on something else. they probley died from mites. we have to learn to live with it.


I may be young compared to you, but I'm not new to this. I haven't had a hive die from mites in a couple of years.


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## dpbntn (Mar 1, 2009)

100% treatment free, never lost a hive to mites. The only thing I put in the hives are my hands.

David Benton
Tucson Honey Company


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

1974 used Terramycin because the books scared me into thinking they would die without.
1975-1999 no treatments whatsoever but lost them all in 1998 and 1999 to Varroa
2000-2001 used Apistan for Varroa. In 2001 they all died from Varroa anyway
2002-2003 used Oxalic acid on some of them, FGMO on some, wintergreen oil on some and nothing on some of them also started regressed to small cell.
2004-present no treatments whatsoever

So the only 3 years all of my bees were treated for anything were 1974, 2000, 20001.

The only 5 years ANY of my bees were treated for ANYTHING would add years 2002, 2003

The 32 years that NONE of my bees were treated for ANYTHING were: 1975,1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 
1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010

I look for mites (as does the inspector every year) and I look hard at deadouts to see if they died from Varroa. I see no Varroa problems anymore. I occasionally find a Varroa.

http://bushfarms.com/beescerts.htm


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## bigwoodsbees (Dec 24, 2010)

I have not used anything in my hive but it did die after the most recent cold snap. I am trying to figure out the cause and I think it is probably due to the fact that the bees had a small brood nest and couldn't cover it and retrieve honey at the same time when it got so cold last week. There were full frames of honey on either side of the cluster. The cluster was the size of a small melon or a softball. The bottom and top entrances were clogged with bees (I had tried to clear them from the outside but must not have been successful) and there was excrement on the top of the frames above and below the cluster. The bees did have varroa in the fall. They went into winter with plenty of honey and there is still a lot in the hive. 

How would I know if varroa led to the death of the bees? And how to I figure out whether it would be safe to use any of the honey/comb this spring when I get -package bees? I intend to start the bees in 8-frame mediums with foundationless frames and was thinking that it might be helpful to put a few frames of drawn comb in as guides. However if there is a good chance that the comb from this hive is "sick" I don't want to take the risk.

Thanks for any advice you might have.


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## Beetrucker74 (Oct 10, 2010)

I treat most with formic but nothing else it kills Varroa and Tracheal mites. All hives that didn't get formic died from Varroa. Of the ones that got treated 2 died from the treatment because they were weak to begin with and it got to hot 3(83 and you only want it to get to 78 that first week, weatherman lied)days into the 21 day application. But I agree that most cant tell if tracheal mites are killing there bees with out looking with a Microscope. I don't have any trouble with brood Diseases other than a little chaulk brood here and there no EFB or AFB ever. I get my nucs from Fisher Bee Farm. This year will be trying some of Russel's Sunkist Cordovan Queens in my splits.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Thanks for that Michael, I've read many many of your posts, but when you put it all together like that it tells a more complete story.

I started with 20 packages all on small cell foundation from the beginning. They came from Koehnen, who was not small cell. I used a spur embedder (which didn't work) and alot of the foundation fell out of the frames as the bees were clustering on it. So, they built their own. A lot of that I rubberbanded into empty frames, so a lot of the first generation of comb was foundationless.

Most everybody survived the first year, and that's when I started seeing varroa signs, dead mites, etc. A few hives died every year from varroa after that, some from typical signs of T-mites. But it was expected, I had read all of Dee Lusby's stuff.

In 2007, I kinda rebooted, bought a nuc from Don, and then brought my remaining 5 hives from Oregon. Four of them died the first winter from what my typical winter losses are now, small clusters, plenty of honey. But I haven't had a loss I could really blame directly on varroa since my bees have been on good small cell comb. Once in a while I'll come across a bee with a mite or find a dead mite on a bottom board now. That's what I define as an acceptable level of infestation.

I'm not somebody who will tell you that small cell is a golden bullet and will fix all your problems, the scientific studies show that. But I do believe it to be an integral part of good chemical free beekeeping. I don't coddle my bees, I've probably taken far more losses than I needed to because I mostly just let them die if they can't handle it on their own. I don't do drone comb or screened bottom boards. But now I have at least one hive that survives every year and boils out bees if you open them in the middle of a blizzard and produces honey every year. I'm working for more of those.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

This is my first winter, but the hive i bought had no treatment of any kind for the last 2 years. (Or any intervention at all, it was pretty much left to its own devices) So far they are doing well, the cluster moved up to the top of the hive so i did put some candy board in. I am not sure that they needed it, but it has been to cold to inspect and as a new beek i was scared they would starve.

My goal is to be treatment free, however i cannot see the advantage of taking the stance "do or die". If genetics is the key factor, and i think it probably is, why not take the steps that are needed to keep them alive until you can replace the queen and improve their genetic potential?

Bottom line is I am pragmatic, and will treat to save a hive, just as i would to save any other livestock. But i will do what is in my power, and admittedly that is limited, to effect the situation to reach my goal. However I have no intention of being treatment free and buying new bees each year. If i can reach the goal of success with out treatments than great, if not i will still keep bees and try a different strategy.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Albert Einstein

Dan


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I have long deliberated over the 'do or die' philosophy. I like other beekeepers am concerned about losing bees, and I don't want to buy repeatedly every year for no reason. The one thing that I keep coming back to is that I really don't know if they will die or exactly how poor a performer they are unless they actually die. 

Some bees are good performers but can't handle a winter. Some bees handle winter well but produce no honey. Also, dead bees produce no honey. They need to be hardy in all respects. If you help them along, you don't actually know what they're capable of.

Another thing it allows me to do is remove ugly comb while it is empty of both stores and brood. Using small cell does not always yield perfectly drawn comb based on the conditions present when it is drawn. Much more than with large cell, the bees will draw what they want to, much more like foundationless.

For this method, I would very much recommend having a whole lot more than one or two hives. At this point, my goal is having 12 survive the winter on my own genetics (not yearling bought bees). This year, I'm also going to produce a handful of queens to start new hives to build up for winter. The larger population I have going into winter will help to tease out the better genetics. It seems to me to be a little more like how it works in real life. 

In fact, that's about exactly how it works in real life. If bees can't cut it, they die. That's how it works. And the abandonment of those principles is why many believe that so many bees are dying today.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

I agree that one or two is not enough. This year i hope to get to six and next year double or triple that, but we will see how it goes. I guess my point was that if it becomes clear that the hive is unlikely to survive, i plan to take action and change what i can and move on eventually getting to the point where i don't have to treat my hives and have good production and survival.

It is the journey as well as the destination. 

Dan


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I am not going to tell you that you're doing it wrong. Do what you need to do. I'm just explaining why I do what I do. Maybe I enjoy doing things the hard way.

One comment I will make though is this: if you're trying to get to the point where you don't have to treat, I doubt you'll ever get there. Eliminating treatments involves weak bees dying. That's just how it goes. If it's not your bees, then it's those of whoever raises your queens.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How would I know if varroa led to the death of the bees?

If you have a solid bottom board or a Screened Bottom Board with a tray, you can look for the telltale thousands of dead Varroa. It's a good bet if you have those on the bottom after the hive dies, it was Varroa that was at the root of the issue.

> And how to I figure out whether it would be safe to use any of the honey/comb this spring when I get -package bees?

Why wouldn't it? The only communicable disease that is really an issue is AFB and that occurs when there is brood, not in winter.

> I intend to start the bees in 8-frame mediums with foundationless frames and was thinking that it might be helpful to put a few frames of drawn comb in as guides. However if there is a good chance that the comb from this hive is "sick" I don't want to take the risk.

The sick hive probably starved or died from Varroa. Those would be the two most likely culprits.


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## bigwoodsbees (Dec 24, 2010)

Thanks Michael! I appreciate your reply and will reuse the frames this spring and see how things go.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

I do not treat, and haven't. I started with Russians, Purvis queens, and B. Weaver queens and bees. Yes, since starting again a few years ago, I have purchased packages and nucs. NOT to replace deadouts, but to expand. You can follow my journey on the blog linked to the home page here on the forum, or read summaries about it on the "Treatment Free Report" in the general forum sticky section. 

The key to being treatment free is to start with treatment free bees. Simple as that. Let someone else pay the price to get there. Now, am I where I want to be? Almost. I hope to reach my plateau of 50 colonies this year. Will be going out to the bees in the next week or so for the first inspection this year. I have lost a colony to starvation, my mistake. I have lost colonies in the summertime to queen issues...probably my fault. 
Regards,
Steven


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

StevenG that is what I do. Let someone else do the work:thumbsup:
Steve how many hives are you running? 

mike


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## Show-me (Aug 3, 2007)

I treated one hive, once 10 years ago and stopped. Now I have been focusing and learning more about bee space, strong, well supplied colonies, and out breeding mites. I do use some SBB, 50%.

I'm 15 for 15 at my home yard, so far. I did a quick check Thursday when the weather was in the 60's and everyone had honey stores. I gave some lite hives patties and did notice a large amount of cleaned out bee's and dead bee's around the hives from cleansing flights.

I just check the local temps here for the last 60 day and they did not have much opportunity for temps above the lower 40's. So I would would guess what could look like Nosema was really the pee pee dance.

Disclaimer: I did have two other hive that are dead outs but I don't count them because I wrote them off as failures last fall. One nuc swarmed in the fall right before my eyes. One was a weak split I accidentally killed the Queen, I feel bad but it happens.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

Heading into fifth year treatment free. Feed sugar syrup and pollen patties if needed. It's still a little early to count hives but all appear good.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> StevenG that is what I do. Let someone else do the work:thumbsup:
> Steve how many hives are you running?
> 
> mike


I began the spring of 2010 with 13 hives, lost one that winter due to starvation. My fault. Entered winter 2010 with 26 hives. Haven't checked them yet. That's the plan for next weekend. So far, a walk by they all look ok, but looks can be deceiving. Did the "heft" test on some, heavy enough, but that can be deceiving. The reason I'm rather confident this spring is that last fall I fed until they'd take no more, and gave each colony two feedings of Mega Bee in October/early November, and they took it all. That was the first fall in a long time I've felt confident going into winter. But, you know how that goes, it will probably come back to bite me in the butt big time! 

I have 20 queens on order from B. Weaver, and plan to make splits this spring, moving up to my goal of 50 colonies. 
Regards,
Steven


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Great to hear from everyone. I always see pontification ad nauseum, but it's good to see which ones actually either doing it or trying it out.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I've got some treatment free ones, and some I treat.

The treatment free ones i should really say chemical free, I do use mechanical control if needed. That's cos we are not as lucky as you guys, there are no commercial queen breeders in my country who specifically sell varroa tolerant bees, and we have not had the injection into our general bee population of bees bred to resist varroa.

If only I had access to someone like BeeWeaver or some of your other excellent breeders!


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## Reid (Dec 3, 2008)

Been beekeeping for 4 years. No treatments.

As for winter losses . . . 

Year 1: 1 Italian Package - 100% Dead 
- Lg. cell wax foundation - nosema or disentary, not sure which.

Year 2: 1 Italian Package, 2 Carniolan Package, 1 Feral Cutout (3 year survivor) - 50% Dead
-All foundationless no treatments
-Italians ate through 80 lbs. of honey and I decided to let them starve
-Carniolan #1 was attacked by a rat during winter, lost queen
-Carniolan #2 survived
-Feral #1 survived

Year 3: Added 1 more carni package and 1 more feral colony (3 year survivor) - 0.00% Dead
-All foundationless, no treatments
-All survived

Year 4: Added 12 more cutouts. Of those 6 were 3+ year survivors. Made 6 nucs to winter over. Total of 22 colonies going into this last winter.
-All foundationless, no treatments
-Lost the smallest nuc. Didn't want to combine to eval. genetics.
-Lost one colony to a landslide (no joke)
-So far the remaining 5 nucs and 15 full size colonies are still alive.
-Winter is not over yet. If I get better than 80% survival, I'll be pretty stoked.

-Reid


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If you measure your cells Reid, what size are they?


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## Reid (Dec 3, 2008)

Oldtimer said:


> If you measure your cells Reid, what size are they?


Depends on the cell type, of course. 

I've measured the following:

Worker Brood Width: 4.6 to 5.1 mm on bees I considered fully regressed; no average calc'd nor does it matter

Drone Brood Width: 6.5 mm (+/- 1 mm), but usually 6.5 mm

Honeycomb Width: Huge! 7.0 to 8.5 mm, I've seen some that were probably larger, but I didn't measure them. 

~Reid


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

WiredForStereo said:


> I guess that is kind of a simplistic explanation.
> 
> Two of them seem to have starved to death because they couldn't break cluster. They were surrounded by stores, probably 3-4 inches away and had decent cluster size. The third one actually survived to the point where their cluster was down to a couple dozen bees and in our February 1st cold snap, they just froze solid. I even recovered the queen to use for swarm bait.
> 
> All three had their origins in Georgia, and I don't fault Don, he has good bees, I just don't think they are well suited to our NW Arkansas winters with snaps down to -15 or more. Incidentally, I bought them from him because he is the only one I know of who sells small cell nucs. He does treat with oils though, and that gave me pause, but I wanted small cell bees. He doesn't breed for honey production, though I have no complaint with that, they produce just fine.



COLD in AK. and GA. LOL you need to keep bee in MA.

BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Treatment free since 2001 when I shook all my bees onto clean wax.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

I'm either treatment free or not treatment free, depending on whose definition you go by. 
All I know for sure is that I don't fall within either of the extreme ends of the spectrum.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Then you are a moderate, right?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Omie said:


> I'm either treatment free or not treatment free, depending on whose definition you go by.
> All I know for sure is that I don't fall within either of the extreme ends of the spectrum.


Go ahead and claim you are. You can put in some caveats if you like. This isn't an argument about what is/isn't, it's a hand raise.

Any step toward treatment free is progress and I applaud it.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well to me treatment is chemicals. So that would make many here treatment free.

BUT - If the person doesn't treat, but replaces their dead hives by buying packages from someone who does, are they treatment free?

To put it another way, without treatment, they wouldn't have any bees.


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## iwombat (Feb 3, 2009)

27 hives Treatment-free ('cept some essential oils) on small-cell and 8-frame.

Lost 1 due to bear.
3 more (tracheal mites).

Top-bar hive will probably not make it due to excessive moisture.
One more really tiny cluster probably won't make it through.

Excluding the bear, and taking the TBH out of the equation (My first year with a TBH).

That's 4 losses out of 25. I'll take 16% any day.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Oldtimer said:


> Well to me treatment is chemicals. So that would make many here treatment free.
> 
> BUT - If the person doesn't treat, but replaces their dead hives by buying packages from someone who does, are they treatment free?
> 
> To put it another way, without treatment, they wouldn't have any bees.


Few do this. However it is done on a commercial scale in northern climates so overwintering issues can be avoided. But there are two other threads in which to discuss what is/is not treatment free.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

WiredForStereo said:


> Go ahead and claim you are. You can put in some caveats if you like. This isn't an argument about what is/isn't, it's a hand raise.
> Any step toward treatment free is progress and I applaud it.


Ok then, I consider myself treatment free.
I feed sugar syrup on occasion, and I use essential oils in grease/sugar patties sometimes. That's it for adding stuff to my hives. 
I don't use formic acid or other chemicals or medications, and no sugar shakes either. 
I plan to raise my own queens this year (with local acclimatized mutt drones) and will try to overwinter some nucs, and use splitting (and its resultant brood cycle interruptions) to help keep the mite population low.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

I don't treat, and when I buy nucs, packages, or queens, I buy from breeders who don't treat also.
Lost 4 hives of 26 this year. Last year only 1 of 14. Will try to do better next year. 
Regards,
Steven


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

That is what I'd call quite good. I'm still having some overwintering problems with mine. I lost 3, nearly 4 of 8 this year. That last one is still iffy. My goal is to have 12 survive, so I'm expanding to 16 this spring and summer.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Not I said the frog.

Moving that way with a lot of dinero and effort invested into breeding. 

I started just after Mr Bush and have been blessed to be a beekeeper almost 32 years. 

I really don't want to be a mite fighter anymore than need be. 

Unless you have been in a cave there are also so many other things to deal with besides mites.

Nosema. Bacteria. Viruses. A plethora of who knows what all else.

There is no one one this forum more eager to ride the no treatment wagon than I.

Only reason I'm only riding on the sideboards and not in the bed is a fine distinction between being broke and totally broke. Not here to get rich, least not financially,just don't want to get squished totally by the no treatment wagon until my beesuit is girded with a fortress of disease resistant bees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Honey-4-All said:


> There is no one one this forum more eager to ride the no treatment wagon than I.


Anyone can ride the no treatment wagon. You just have to be prepared to have hives die of mites, and not get much honey from the survivors because they'll be suffering, just not enough to kill them.

I like my bees to be productive, and they do that when they are not infested with mites. So I treat, I like to see healthy bees. I've got some non treatment ones but that's all experimental and because i think we have to work towards that. But they cannot stand on their own yet I control their mites by non chemical means if needed, it pains me to see sick bees. I never let a hive die.

BTW I'm talking about mite treatment. I don't treat for anything else, or use pollen patties and such.


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## mmclean (Sep 13, 2010)

New Beek here. Just got two hives and trying to get some nucs frum Alan Bukley at Mountain Valley Bees. He claims, 20 years of forced natural selection and has treated twice in 14 years. Plan to keep them natural cell size and as treatment free as I can. Again he claims, losses for the last 12 years has been consistently less than 10%.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well if they can survive treatment free, go for it. We should all be aiming for that.

One comment though, the measure I constantly hear of the success of treatment free beekeeping, is they only lost X numbers of hives last year. But to me, survival should be a given. I never lose any hives. We should be looking beyond that and measuring success not by survival, which is basic, but by production, ie honey harvest, which is a reflection of the health of the hive and the skill of the beekeeper.

And please nobody tell me you don't want a large honey crop you can be proud of. I don't believe you.

After all, the reason man started keeping bees in the first place, was because they made honey. Otherwise they may as well have kept ants.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Well, once again you're speaking not from experience. You are assuming about those who are treatment free and casting doubt. I lost bees in the beginning during the transition. Once I got through that, there has been no difference in production. I still have many 5 gallon buckets of honey in storage. Honey yields is not an issue. Next!


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Oldtimer said:


> BTW I'm talking about mite treatment. I don't treat for anything else, or use pollen patties and such.


Yea, that's the one that's a killer. Most everyone when they say they treat, it's about mites. The pollen patties have little negative impact on bees, if any. Not sure what your point is.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

This is getting off topic. If you want to argue treating vs not, please start your own thread.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*****


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> If anyone wants to be a Moderator pm Barry. Barry is the Moderator here and is doing quite well, imo, herding the cats. So let the Moderators do their job and we will all get along better.


The rules say that not even moderators are above the rules. Keep it on topic. If you want to argue yes or no on treatments, please start a thread.

Additionally, moderation is not to be discussed.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

WiredForStereo said:


> I want to do kind of an informal hand raising just to see how many are treatment free. I read so many posts around here, it's hard to keep track of names and methods.
> ...
> What are your average winter losses?
> ...


The easiest way to get an informal hand raising is simply do a poll... do you treat, or not treat? You want more than that, be prepared for discussions that meander. 

Some say winter losses are related to non-treatment, others demonstrate that it doesn't matter whether you treat or not, you're going to have losses.

Some say, and just recently on this thread, that if you don't treat, your colony will die. Or if it doesn't die, you won't get a honey harvest, or if you get a honey crop, it won't be much. Personally those discussions get real tiresome after going around that ring time and time again. More beeks each year are demonstrating you can be treatment free, not lose your hives, and still get a nice honey crop. A person can believe it or not, but I'll keep saving money by not treating, and go to the bank with the $ raised from my honey sales.

Now, if the farmer will contact me like he agreed to before he sprays, and the weather, clover, and soybeans will cooperate this year...:lpf:
Regards,
Steven


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Barry said:


> Well, once again you're speaking not from experience. You are assuming about those who are treatment free and casting doubt!


 I work with a lot of treatment free beekeepers and DO know what I'm talking about on this issue from personal experience.

Having said that I've looked back and realised I've left the topic for this thread so may discuss this in another thread.


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