# Where To Buy Snelgrove Board Or Got Any Plans?



## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

I have looked at the major suppliers and do not see Snelgrove boards for sale. I would like to buy one and then make one using it as my guide. Who sells them? If I can't do that, can anyone point me to some plans? Thanks. J


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=...tUJUQ7bQwqOnQAQNfHKb_g&bvm=bv.148441817,d.amc

Brushy mountain also has them. Do a search on double screen division board and you will get more hits than by searching for Snelgrove.

Mann Lakes are $19.95 and well worth it unless you really like doing woodwork.

There is information and plans on Dave Cushman's site.

You have to respect bee space so make sure the plans you use take into account whether there is top or bottom bee space in the hive design and frames you are using. I would suggest buying a couple of ready made ones and copy them if you need more.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I am pretty sure I used this plan though on one I just put the screen over a hole in the middle rather then make a split screened gap.
http://beesource.com/build-it-yourself/double-screen-board/
Cheers
gww


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Betterbee sells both 8- and 10-frame ones. Last I heard the 8- frame one was in short supply.

Nancy


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

Think double sided solid bottom board with 6-8 pivoting doors and screen in the middle


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Thanks everyone. I promise I did look. I didn't find it in my Betterbee or Brushy Mountain catalog and no search results on Mann Lake website. It must be under division board. Thanks again. J


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Fivej said:


> Thanks everyone. I promise I did look. I didn't find it in my Betterbee or Brushy Mountain catalog and no search results on Mann Lake website. It must be under division board. Thanks again. J


http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/searchprods.asp Item # 694

https://www.mannlakeltd.com/10-frame-double-screen-board Product code ww 180

Maybe Fivej has me on ignore


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Go on line and find the Welsh Beekeeping Association. They have a great article on Snelgrove boards and they have the instruction to make them. 

It is about the simplest thing in the world to make yourself.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Yep Orthoman, they look really simple to make and i hope to make one, but I thought to eliminate foul ups I would buy one as a guide for me.
Crofter, I certainly don't have you on ignore. I was just confirming what you suggested. Its under division board or screened board. Is Snelgrove Board trademarked or something? Isn't that what most people call them?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Fivej said:


> Yep Orthoman, they look really simple to make and i hope to make one, but I thought to eliminate foul ups I would buy one as a guide for me.
> Crofter, I certainly don't have you on ignore. I was just confirming what you suggested. Its under division board or screened board. Is Snelgrove Board trademarked or something? Isn't that what most people call them?


Here is an interesting read on the fellow who put his name on the board int the 1930's. http://beespoke.info/2014/05/23/book-review-snelgrove-swarming-its-prevention-and-control/

In Great Britain his name is probably more familiar than in the US. where they are probably better know as just division boards or double screened division boards. I have Snelgroves book on Queen Rearing and dont see much in it that isnt considered to be very much true today.

Enjambres was considering making one that has a divider in the upper part and separate entrances on the rear where the new queens usually fly from so that more than one nuc can be created at a go. I find cells usually started on 3 frames or more and simply move one or more of them off to start a nuc or requeen another colony. I made 10 new queens last season to make some new colonies and requeen all the rest. This while completely controlling swarming and averaged 75 lbs of honey per colony that ran the boards. That is pretty much what my average has been in this area for a double deep colony.

The easiest is to buy a factory one and copy it. Aside from the doors and a screened hole they are not much different than making a rimmed inner cover.

If I had to make a bunch in a hurry I would only put upper and bottom doors only on the two long sides and simply drill a 1" hole in the rear that can be plugged or opened by a plastic bottle cap. So far I have not used the front pair of doors so left that feature out on the ones I made this winter. The doors are the time consuming part.

I now have enough boards to put on the 12 colonies that I likely will have going into summer. For me they go on mid May usually. For my area the timing is just about exactly what Snelgrove used as typical for his area in England.


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## Tavery (Jun 10, 2014)

Frank, so are you moving the old queen, partial brood chamber and nurse bees above the divider board and manipulate the openings to get the flyers back to main hive? And moving swarm cell frames off except one or two in nucs. Is this how your making splits while making honey? Those are much better production numbers than these ozark hills have yielded for me so far.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Tavery said:


> Frank, so are you moving the old queen, partial brood chamber and nurse bees above the divider board and manipulate the openings to get the flyers back to main hive? And moving swarm cell frames off except one or two in nucs. Is this how your making splits while making honey? Those are much better production numbers than these ozark hills have yielded for me so far.


I usually leave the old queen in the bottom box and move above the division board all frames with brood.So far I have made the move before swarm preps were underway but apparently if you move the queen and all brood including frames with active cells above the board, the foragers return to the bottom box and the bees sense swarm is then not possible, and the workers tear down cells and the queen goes back to lay. I have not proven to myself that that is true but my guess it is. After placing above the division board, cells are started on usually at least three frames in the upper box; I pull several frames off to start nucs or to swap into and replace developing cells in other Snelgroved hives whose queens I dont want to breed.

You could take the queen out entirely and leave a part frame of open brood in the bottom box and new queens would then be produced both above and below the division board. There are many different things you can accomplish besides just swarm control.

Regarding the 75 lb honey figure; that leaves the colonies pretty light after supers are removed and I have to feed syrup as fall flow is scarce here.

Having the division board and another hive body above your honey supers is a hindrance for supering or accessing the bottom box. The division board and upper hive body does not get heavy though. That is the downside!


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## Tavery (Jun 10, 2014)

So the advantages to the snelgrove board over simply moving to a separate top and bottom board. It helps upper hive maintain brood temps? Cuts down on tops and bottoms? Ensures the forgers make it back to the mother hive? There may be other advantages i am missing. That this is enough separation from the original queen to prompt queen cells suprised me, I take it this is predictable for you since it works. Once the extra queen cells are moved off to mating nucs and the new queen left above division board is established you simply move her box off as a new hive I take it then


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

tav...
I have also seen (not experianced) several poeple say that using the snelgrove board keeps the bees in the yard over all more calm. Don't ask me why. 
I had also seen it commented on that robbing is less a worry with the split portion compared to just setting a nuc in the same yard. Again, don't ask me why.
Good luck
gww


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Tavery said:


> So the advantages to the snelgrove board over simply moving to a separate top and bottom board. It helps upper hive maintain brood temps? Cuts down on tops and bottoms? Ensures the forgers make it back to the mother hive? There may be other advantages i am missing. That this is enough separation from the original queen to prompt queen cells suprised me, I take it this is predictable for you since it works. Once the extra queen cells are moved off to mating nucs and the new queen left above division board is established you simply move her box off as a new hive I take it then


What I did was shake all the bees into the bottom box with empty comb (if I found the queen then I put her in the bottom box and no more shaking was required). Then set up with 2 boxes with original queen, excluder, 2 boxes comb, excluder, then boxes with brood, open and capped. Leave for a day and let the bees repopulate the brood boxes, then replace the upper excluder with the snelgrove board. I found 2 medium boxes of separation of brood and queen is needed to get queen cells going. Once the queen in the upper box is going, you can replace the snelgrove board with an excluder and run a 2 queen hive if you want.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Iharder
Must be nice to have all that drawn comb for 4 extra boxes. You do bring up a point that I wonder about. My goal was to maby just do a teronov split and put the queen and nurse bees on top in an empty hive body with foundationless frames. That leaves all the capped and open brood in the bottom with the foragers.

It might be that I need to have an empty super on the bottom hive with the foragers so I can let them go 30 days with out checking while they make a queen though bees will be hatching and so space for storage may open up and keep up with the storage.

I can hardly see the differance between a screen board and a queen excluder as for as closeness of the two parts. 

Are you saying that the bees don't start cells due to the closeness of the queen. I don't think this is covered on mels page or when doolittle was doing what you are doing.

I won't have any queen excluders on my hive and no drawn comb extra. 

Am I going to need to put two empty mediums between the brood and foragers and the snelgorve board that has the queen and nurse bees?

If yes, will the empties midigate the temp gain that putting the split on top is supposed to give you?
Thanks
gww


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

There is a big difference between an excluder and a double screen. The double screens on the division board are about 3/8 of an inch apart so the bees cannot exchange food and resulting queen pheremones by trophillaxis (swapping bubble gum) This probably contributes more influence in the bees starting queen cells than the physical distance created by the two honey supers. 

At the suitable time for creating new queens there will be a flow on so I cannot see doing it without putting supers above the foragers anyway. If the queen is not held down out of the honey supers she will be traipsing around right under the division board but the double screens _should_ still induce perceived queenlessness above the board and cells started. I have not tried that. Excluders can be a useful tool. I never aquired any phobias about them.

You are getting so many different, ideas, manipulations, references to different authors, etc., into one post it is hard to follow you. Cut back on the coffee!

I place at least two honey supers above the excluder on the lower box.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Crofter
I see I have confused you, don't worry about it, I do it to myself all the time.

I really do drink a lot of coffee all day untill I go to bed and so that you got 100 percent right.

I built my double screen with the bee source free plans and my screens are only seperated by a 1/4 inch piece of plywood but do have the 3/8 inch bee space where the openings are for manipulating the bees entrance.

I may have confused you on talking on my split and mixing that talking with what you guys are doing. Due to having zero comb, I was thinking the queen and nurse bees on top in an empty hive would draw comb like crazy and it would be worker brood comb due to the queen being where the bees are drawing the comb. I really didn't know if the queenless lower portion would draw much comb if they didn't have a laying queen. Either way, I have no phylisophical veiws against queen excluders though I did only buy one to use in splits (just in case). I only bought one cause I am really cheap and trying to make everything and couldn't make one not cause I am against them. I may buy more some day.

So, if I put two supers on, they will be compleetly empty over what will start out as a queenless hive.

Iharder on the other hand was basically doing a doolittle type split with the brood going over the hive to gether nurse bees. He was leaving the queen with the origional hive. The only differrance is that doolittle put it over a support hive and not back on the same hive because he wanted the origional hive strong. I really wasn't mixing as much as you might think when mentioning doolittle and mel in the same breath because it is mels site that shows the doolittle split and his additions to it.

The reason for mentioning those two writers was that them promoting doing the same thing that iharder was doing in a way that showed no need for the seperation of the two portions of two supers to get the queen started. I was just trying for clarification of the actual need from Iharder of the two supers. 

So, with the division board or queen excluders, mels site was saying they would start queen cells with no extra seperation of supers..

I did ask more questions in the end trying to get guidence on what I am doing when having a queenless part on bottom and no extra built comb to add but a queen on top above a board and above the bottom queenless part.

I am wondering if the bottom being queenless but with all the brood and all the drawn comb will draw more comb in the supers and even if they don't, do I still need the seperation to get them to start queen cells. From your post, the board is probly enough seperation for them to consider themselfs queenless. I am still a little murky on if they will actually use the supers untill they have a queen since the supers are empty frames. I am pretty sure the top will do like the swarms I caught did and fill the brood box.

I have no doubt that I am still confused. I looked at the way you split but thought that I might get more and better comb drawn out with a pure teronov split compared to what you do. I could be wrong on this.

I love your imput and can see how my comunication style might make it hard to get good advice from anyone.


Clear as mud right.
Cheers
gww

Ps My post was trying to say to iharder that I am not doing what you are doing and so can you tell me the parts of what you do that are relative to what I am trying to do.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I am trying to wean myself off coffee at the moment. Still getting caffein withdrawal head aches. I hear you!

Two empty mediums of undrawn frames would be way too much space. Bees dont need the queen to build comb if there is a flow but they need to have one in the making to keep them happy.

Dont weaken the colony to make splits with the idea that the new brood will create the demand for more comb. A strong colony will draw more comb than two weak ones, especially if you are trying to get honey supers drawn. ( Ah yes, I see you are running unlimited brood and foundationless) I really have very little experience there.

If you want to guarantee cells started consider the Cloake board. They are easier to make than a double screen board. Here is one I made quick and dirty and a pic of getting the bees accustomed to using middle of the hive entrance before putting on the Cloake Board. You can do more tricks with the snelgrove board but the cloake board positively will start cells and it will tell you where the queen is without having to find her.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Crofter
Thanks for the responce. I guess I will try the snelgrove board and if they don't make a queen, I will combine them back together. I am not really doing the split for more comb but more just reconize that I don't have any comb and so want to do splits that work with out comb. The guy I bought one hive from says my hives won't swarm this year cause I have new queens which may be true with the one I bought from him. The other two were swarms though. I don't really know my own mind what I really want. I do want some honey this year and know splitting won't help with that but I also really have a lot of equiptment built and am cutting more boards now for next winter. 

I guess my biggest reason for wanting to split is because as of now I am not treating and I am hoping for a few bees that have some kind of brood break so if most die this fall, I have some left that make it to spring and give me a chance to adjust my bee keeping practices. I may get lucky and catch some more swarms that could cover that.

They all are alive so far but I am new enough that I don't know which will build up and produce and which will be duds and so I thought maby getting a hive from each would give me a little time to look at which queen to persue keeping more bees from.

I go from greed to dread on the honey extraction thing. I want some and sometimes I want a lot and other times I only want enough to taste but not to have to get rid of. Extracting seems like hard work and if I sell, I would like to do like you with an honor stand and so probly don't mind starting with a small amount. 

So although I am open to move in any direction slowly, I more then anything don't want to have to buy bees. I want something out of them eventually after I learn the how of it but starting over and having to spend money to do it is not in the plans.

I am not against honey excluders or treating or foundation or anything but only know one way to go and that is to try things at my pace till something works and try to do it in a way where it sorta pays its own way while learning. 

Even though I sorta take a wierd way of doing things, I find you advice and shared knowlage a real help. 



I think your post was informative and answered my two super question. You gave me another avenue with the cloke board. 

My unwillingness to buy anything untill the bees buy it has kinda pigion holed me into keeping bees in the way I do. I really wanted to try it and see if I was any good at it rather then just get another money pit hoby. 

I really don't know what smart bee keepers would do with what I have. Take a chance and go all honey and hope you don't need to split but try to catch it in time if you do or do a split early and get whatever honey you get but if you keep your bees alive you can do the same thing again and will still have more honey because you have more bees. I realize big hive make honey on the one hand but that bees die on the other hand.

Since this is a snelgrove thread and I did build three of them so far, when I figure out my own plans (leaning towards splitting all) I am sure I will use one.

I did have one question that I ask else where on splitting with a snelgrove board that was never answered. Do you really get a brood break as far as mites are concerned when the split and origional hive are are on top of each other?
Thanks
gww


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I suspect you already have guessed about the brood break angle for mite control! Mites can both fall through the screens and hitchhike on bees moving from top box to bottom.

I would suggest doing mite counts no later than July if you want to keep your options open. Finding out they are too high in October may not allow time to regroup for winter. You dont want to find yourself like Napoleon in Russia 1812....... Sad!


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Crofter


> I suspect you already have guessed about the brood break angle for mite control! Mites can both fall through the screens and hitchhike on bees moving from top box to bottom.


I suspect you are correct but sometimes my mind does some circular logic and so it is always nice to get a bit of outside comfermation as a double check of myself. There is one other option and that is an after summer soltice queen to out lay the mites.

If I do the napolian thing, I wonder if after all this advice, if I will have the guts to mention it.

If you notice, I have been keeping track of the OA glyserine thread. Of course in all this expermenting, that too is sorta an experment but one that draws me in as to the ease compared to other methods. I truly doubt I act untill I feel some pain but who knows. I am definatly trying to keep up with my options if I do decide to act.
Thanks
gww


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

You may not have comb now, but by the time they have built up for a split, they should have built a bunch. 

So I run top entrances in the spring during comb building phase with the brood nest in the top boxes. After the manipulation and the snelgrove board is put on, the original queen doesn't have many bees. The resources are flowing into the top boxes where the queen cells are being made. Only after the queen cells are capped, do I start diverting foragers back to the original queen. Probably more slowly than most as I want the queen cells well fed and well protected. The last diversion needs to be done before the queens emerge as entrances need to be kept constant while she does her mating flight.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Iharder


> You may not have comb now, but by the time they have built up for a split, they should have built a bunch.


I am new and probly have lots of misconceptions due to not seeing very much for myself. I was under the impression that the wax making and swarminstinct sorta happened at close to the same time. I have not had bees long enough to know when the wax making starts but know it hasn't started yet here. I was with a guy that made a split last year around april the 15 th. When we lifted the top box there was lots of bur comb built between the top and bottom box full of drone larva. So I am guessing between now and then that alot happens. I caught my first swarm on may 6. 

The weather in the ten day forcast is talking of snow again and one day with high of 40 and low of 26. I was thinking I would probly not get in the hive again untill end of march or early april.

So, if they are going to build comb between now and april the 15th, I am going to have to figure out when to open the brood nest and also give them something to build on.

I was figuring that they would make a mess in my feeder shim and that that would give me a clue of when to minipulate the combs and was aslo thinking that I wouldn't even need to watch that too close untill the end of march.

My top comments show that I don't even know how to get to this point of yours.


> After the manipulation and the snelgrove board is put on, the original queen doesn't have many bees. The resources are flowing into the top boxes where the queen cells are being made. Only after the queen cells are capped, do I start diverting foragers back to the original queen. Probably more slowly than most as I want the queen cells well fed and well protected. The last diversion needs to be done before the queens emerge as entrances need to be kept constant while she does her mating flight.


But if I get to this point, I do understant your quote.
Thanks
gww


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## Tavery (Jun 10, 2014)

Frank, i read the link you provided and yep, Good read! for understanding Snelgrove background. 
I found this summary of his method that really helped a lot...maybe it will clear things up for others http://www.killowen.com/swarmingimpulse.html
I am definitely going to learn to use these boards, I can see that the timing is important but there is more flexibility than having the wife call me at the office and say my bees are swarming again. ( or the 4-5 friends who have my hives at their place)

Lharder suggestion would leave we always guessing what is going on until I had some experience with it. fewer trip to open and close entrances though

Is it thinking to optimistically to believe that introducing the new (top) queen to bottom hive in August and recombining these two colonies for winter is made smoother by the Snelgrove? you know mutual boxes and all. Or to quote Frank,"the bees cannot exchange food and resulting queen pheremones by trophillaxis (swapping bubble gum) " is it really like having hives separated by any distance? Very interesting. This has changed my way of thinking about managing for new colonies, swarming and honey production. Thank you guys
Now back to figuring out what to do about our new to us SHB problem. yuck! Mites are one thing but these are only worse because you see them and/or their damage first hand and every inspection
Travis


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