# Starting with Small Cell



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Just a question for all. I'm a beginner and am planning on starting 4 hives this spring with a friend. My question is since I'll be starting with zero drawn combs, would I be smarter to buy only 4.9mm foundation to start on and stay with. 

If you want small cell. Absolutely. Just buy 4.9mm. Anything else is a setback.

>Or is there something Im missing?

I don't think so.

> Is it a lot harder to get the bees to start with small foundation?

Not at all.

>I see Dadants sells 4.9mm foundation but they say its for the experienced beekeeper.

I have no idea why they say that. I wish they wouldn't. It's much easier to START them on 4.9mm than to start them on 5.4mm and then try to regress them. The standard "Dee Lusby" method for regressing an established hive is to do a shakedown and put them on 4.9mm. Your package IS a shakedown. The only hard part of regressing is getting them off of the large cell comb without wasting brood or stressing them out. Yours will already BE off the large cell comb. They are a package with no comb and that's the perfect way to start regressing.

To reiterate. If you start them on 4.9mm you are one step ahead on regression. If you start them on 5.4mm you are one step behind on regression. You just missed a golden opportunity to skip one full shakdown.

My GUESS is that Dadant thinks that you'll buy the small cell foundation, not monitor mites, not treat for mites, lose your hive and be dissapointed. They think it's too complicated to try to explain "regression".

You should still learn to monitor mites. You MAY have to do something to keep them under control until the bees are regressed. Drone magnets (a frame of drone comb removed after it's capped and frozen) or powdered sugar or something. But if you feed more 4.9mm foundtion in until the center of the brood nest is 4.9mm or smaller, and you keep monitoring, I'm betting you'll find the mite problem will go away at that point.

Regression is simply the fact that the first comb the larger bees draw is probably not going to be 4.9mm. It will probably be 5.1mm or so. The smaller bees from that will probably draw smaller cells that will probably fall near the 4.9mm size. The next generation will draw even smaller comb. The "target" size is 4.9mm for the core of the brood nest. In my experience they won't draw that small for all the honey storage areas, but they will for the core of the broodnest if you let them.


----------



## Cam (Sep 27, 2005)

So from what I understand, for the brood I should go ahead and use the 4.9mm foundation, but will I then replace it after a while so they will keep reducing its size.

Now a question on supers, if youre starting from scratch like I am, would you use plastic or wax foundation? And Im assuming for this use the normal size super foundation.

Cam


----------



## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Why not just go with the Pierco plastic foundation? Its durable stuff, incredibly easy to install, and supposed to be smaller than standard foundation.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So from what I understand, for the brood I should go ahead and use the 4.9mm foundation, but will I then replace it after a while so they will keep reducing its size.

Yes, the smaller bees reared on the smaller comb will build smaller comb.

>Now a question on supers, if youre starting from scratch like I am, would you use plastic or wax foundation?

What do you want to do with the honey? Crush and strain? Cut comb honey? Extract? If you only have four hives, I'd do cut comb and crush and strain. In order to do that, I'd use 7/11 thin surplus from Walter Kelly. That way you won't need a queen excluder because the queen won't like the size (5.7mm or so, too small for drone, too large for worker). Or you can use all 4.9mm and hope you get more nice drawn 4.9mm comb. Havning drawn comb is very nice for starting new packages etc.

> And Im assuming for this use the normal size super foundation.

Only if you want to use an excluder. I wouldn't.

>Why not just go with the Pierco plastic foundation? Its durable stuff, incredibly easy to install, and supposed to be smaller than standard foundation. 

Pierco is about 5.2 to 5.3mm depending on if it's the frames or the sheets and if it's the medium or the Deeps. The deep frames are about 5.2. To handle the mites you need 4.9mm, not 5.2. 5.2 will be a nice start and will probably contribute to somewhat less Varroa, but it has not been reported to solve the Varroa problems by anyone that I know of.

Natural comb:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/47mmCombMeasurement.jpg

Rite Cell:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/RiteCell54Measurment.jpg

Standard wax:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Dadant54mmMeasured.JPG

4.9mm:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Dadant49mmMeasured.JPG

Pierco medium sheet:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/PiercoMediumSheet52mmMeasured.jpg

Pierco Deep Frame:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/PiercoDeepFrame525Measured.JPG

I don't have a picture but Pierco medium frames are about 5.3mm if I remember. They are measurably larger cells than the deep frames.


----------



## Cam (Sep 27, 2005)

Well even though Im only going to have 4 hives I have a friend that is reasonably close who still has an extractor so I think wed like to extract. So I assuming Id need to use wired foundation or plastic. Am I wrong there? Is there an advantage to small cell in the super besides the obvious one of having comb for use in expansion?


----------



## Tad2much (Jan 2, 2006)

>Well even though Im only going to have 4 hives I have a friend that is reasonably close who still has an extractor so I think wed like to extract. So I assuming Id need to use wired foundation or plastic. Am I wrong there? Is there an advantage to small cell in the super besides the obvious one of having comb for use in expansion?

No. Though admittedly I'm a little new to the theory of natural cell sizes, but provided you use an excluder it doesn't matter at all. Probably wouldn't even matter without an extractor, but without the queen might get up there to lay eggs at which point you would be losing out on the benifits of your new nicely drawn 4.9mm comb.


----------



## Tad2much (Jan 2, 2006)

Err, extractor = excluder my mistake >_< and no edit function as far as I've found.


----------



## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I'd be interested to hear the results anyone has had with starting a package on SC foundation
I started my first hive last spring on Pierco
six weeks later I discovered SC and wanted to switch them over
So first, I inserted a frame of SC foundation
the result was some kinda confused comb

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/Dsc00776.jpg

I think the bee's reworked a lot of it since it was their first try at SC
next I tried just starter strips and had better luck 

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/Dsc00779.jpg

now that situation was somewhat different than starting a package straight off on SC foundation
My bee's were established on 2 boxes of Pierco before I started giving then something different

Next spring I'm gonna start a couple more packages
I was kind planing to use starter strips, but would like to hear from folks who've used SC
foundation

Dave


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>so I think wed like to extract. So I assuming Id need to use wired foundation or plastic.

You can. You can also use plain wax and still extract. It's just harder to crush and strain with wired foundation or plastic. It's just as easy to extract either way.

>Am I wrong there? Is there an advantage to small cell in the super besides the obvious one of having comb for use in expansion?

I gave up on excluders about 29 years ago. So it's important to me that anywhere the queen decides to lay is natural sized cells or cells she won't want to lay in. So I use natural comb (foundationless with some kind of comb guide or starter strips) or small cell foundation everywhere. If you intend to use a honey excluder, errrr I mean a queen excluder, then maybe it doesn't matter.

Here's a foundationless frame full of honey before I exrtracted it:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/FoundationlessDrawn.JPG

No foundation. No wires. No plastic. Natural sized cells.

The empty frame looks like this:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/FoundationlessFrame2.JPG


----------



## snoopybee (Dec 21, 2005)

I am also getting back to bees in the hobby mode. Had a dozen or two when I was a teenager(more than 50 years ago!). Am getting only two hives and want to go small cell. Can I Just cut strips from the dadant small cell and put them in the frames and let the bees do the rest. Didn't know anything when I had bees before and not much more now

Thanks
Ray Davis


----------



## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Ray,
Yes, absolutely you can use starter strips. Unless you use at least one center frame of foundation to set the pattern, you'll want to monitor them to make sure they stay "on course." Even with the center frame, I've had them get off. Perhaps this is because frames are built to center Large-cell combs. 4.9mm (small cell or SC) is usually spaced closer on center. 

But at any rate, both you and the others starting out, not only will get a faster regression by starting at the start, but by using the starter strips as you discribe, you'll save a nickle on foundation costs. 

Once they have the first frames drawn, and you're ready for the next "step down", the new starter-stripped frames should stay on course better since they'll go betweeen two drawn combs. 

Hope that makes sense.

Once that settles in to your mind, you might be interested in Joe Waggle's idea for getting the frames spaced correctly for SC (small cell). It calls for you simply inverting your hive body (now it's up side down) and putting the frames in. shifting the frames so that the end bars cross one another rather than line up as usual, you get the tighter spacing necessary for good SC comb. And you'll be able to get 11 frames in. I built a small frame of 1-by stock to place on the body, around the top bars to seal it all once the inner cover is put on. 

Keep an eye on wayward comb and I think you'll do well Dell Gui. 

Waya


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Can I Just cut strips from the dadant small cell and put them in the frames and let the bees do the rest.

Certainly. Before you give up treatments, I'd keep monitoring the mites and try to get another full turnover of brood comb. Until you get down to 4.9mm, I'd keep swaping it out. It will probably take a few years to get fully down to that size in the core of the brood nest. But it will help all along the way.

>Unless you use at least one center frame of foundation to set the pattern, you'll want to monitor them to make sure they stay "on course." 

It does help to have something to get them in line. For the most part bees want to build parallel combs and one full sheet is helpful. A fully drawn comb is even better.

>Even with the center frame, I've had them get off. Perhaps this is because frames are built to center Large-cell combs. 4.9mm (small cell or SC) is usually spaced closer on center. 

That is probably part of it.

>Once they have the first frames drawn, and you're ready for the next "step down", the new starter-stripped frames should stay on course better since they'll go betweeen two drawn combs. 

And between two drawn combs in the brood nest, you don't even need the starter strip. Just put it between two combs pushed tightly together.


----------



## snoopybee (Dec 21, 2005)

Thanks Waya and Micheal. When I had bees before everything I did was foundationless and all my bees were "feral" from bee trees and random swarms. It's a whole new world!

Ray


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Thanks Waya and Micheal. When I had bees before everything I did was foundationless and all my bees were "feral" from bee trees and random swarms. It's a whole new world!

Sounds like the world I'm in. Feral bees. Foundationless frames. So what's so new to you?


----------



## snoopybee (Dec 21, 2005)

Micheal, guess I'm back to the future!

Ray Davis


----------



## RaytownDave (Mar 28, 2005)

Michael,

I've had my hives for a year now and I have had absolutely no evidence of mites. Lucky since I live in Kansas City. I'm wanting to switch to small cell so that I can help insure that I'm doing what I can to continue to protect them. I'm looking to increase my hives from 2 to 5 and am concerned about buying a package from just anywhere because I'm afraid I'll just be adding mites to my currently mite free hives. The questions I have is should I just split and hope for the best and/or buy a package and hope for the best? My next question is should I regress using strips or full frame 4.9 from Dadent?

Dave


----------



## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>I've had my hives for a year now and I have had absolutely no evidence of mites.

How do you know? I'm not saying you're mistaken, just wondering how and how often you've checked. If you're truly mite-free, that's fantastic. There aren't many people in the continental US that can make that claim.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My guess is you have mites, but they have stayed under control so far. I wouldn't worry about keeping them mite free, since I don't think they are to start with nor is it likely they will stay that way, if they are.

But raising your own is always a great idea.


----------



## Phoenix (May 26, 2004)

> I've had my hives for a year now and I have had absolutely no evidence of mites.


That doesn't mean you don't have them, but with only one year of experience, you may not yet know what to look for. I have yet to see a hive that has no mites.

Since you have two established colonies and plenty of drawn comb, I would highly recommend splitting what you have.

You can start the process of retrogression by simply checkerboarding your broodnest and inserting foundationless frames in between the frames of drawn comb. As the foundationless frames are drawn, I would feed more foundationless frames into the center of the broodnest, and move the larger drawn comb up and out.

This process will retrogress all four colonies at nearly the same rate, depending of course, on the rate at which the splits recover.


----------



## RaytownDave (Mar 28, 2005)

I don't disagree I am certainly new and green but I have tried to check on the bees at least once per month during the cooler parts of the year I checked every 2 weeks and my friend and I would mull over the bees to see any evidence and didn't find any. My friend has her hive next to mine and she checked even more often than I so at least they aren't causing many problem if they are actually there. (Thank goodness)

Also, what do you guys/gals think about using strips v/s buying the whole foundation of 4.9?

Phoenix, do you have problems with your bee drawn comb falling apart when you check on your bees? I'm always afraid of it being too weak.
Dave


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Do you have a SBB? Have you checked the tray for mites? Have you done a sugar roll? An ether roll? Uncapped some brood? Mites are VERY hard to see on the bees. Usually they are up under the joint of the segments. Here's some pictures of varroa on bees where they are more visible than usual:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Varroa2.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Varroa3.jpg


----------



## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

In my most heavily infested hives, I'd typically only *see* 1 or 2 bees on a frame with visible mites on them. It was rare enough that even with my propensity for taking pictures, I never did manage to photograph a mite on a bee, despite trying.


----------



## RaytownDave (Mar 28, 2005)

This is helpful and I'll do a more accurate check as soon as it warms a bit. Hopefully, I won't find the dreaded monsters!

Dave


----------



## Phoenix (May 26, 2004)

> Phoenix, do you have problems with your bee drawn comb falling apart when you check on your bees? I'm always afraid of it being too weak.


I presume you are referring to foundationless frames, and if so, no my comb doesn't fall apart upon inspection. Our bees are much more intelligent than we give them credit for sometimes, as they are smart enough to know when to reinforce the comb in order to support the weight it must bear, in which case they will attach the comb to the sides and bottom of the frames they are filling with honey. 

Of course you must handle your frames wisely if the comb has not been attached on the sides or bottom, at which time you MUST turn the top bar straight up and down prior to turning it to inspect the opposite side. 

Brood frames are quite often left unattached, as a frame of brood is much lighter than a frame of honey, but the more waves of brood that have been raised in that frame the stiffer the comb becomes.

The only time I had any comb collapse was prior to my understanding of proper ventilation. Obviously the cooler the comb is the lesser the probability of collapse and the more weight it will support.

My colonies are 3 to 5 deeps high, and are still able to construct foundationless frames for comb honey in the top boxes without collapse.


----------



## macmcp (Sep 18, 2005)

Michael Bush 
I ordered small cell from dadant and I was looking at it and I realised it was 4.9 mm is this ok I notice 4.7mm in your pictures... my other foundation is like 6.0 is that regular size ?
I noticed some pictures on another thread and they helped a lot, regarding my other Q's. But I did notice someone talking about no brood. I'm going to be starting a couple of packages on small cell (4.9)so no regression. And also 6 1/2 mediums in april. I noticed somewhere in the past one of your pictures had some pink foam board 1" thick, above the inner cover, I wish I had done that in nov to keep the babies warmer. My posts will make more sense as I grow in experience.

tks mac mcp


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I ordered small cell from dadant and I was looking at it and I realised it was 4.9 mm is this ok

That's standard small cell foundation.

> I notice 4.7mm in your pictures...

That's natural drawn comb.

> my other foundation is like 6.0 is that regular size ?

6.6mm is drone. 5.4mm to 5.43mm is "standard". 6.0mm would be unusual.

>I noticed some pictures on another thread and they helped a lot, regarding my other Q's. But I did notice someone talking about no brood. I'm going to be starting a couple of packages on small cell (4.9)so no regression.

Well, you'll get the first regression for free, but you should eventually swap out the brood comb.

> And also 6 1/2 mediums in april. I noticed somewhere in the past one of your pictures had some pink foam board 1" thick, above the inner cover, I wish I had done that in nov to keep the babies warmer.

I never used the foam until I went to the migratory covers. I was worried about condensation. An inner cover makes a double wall to help with condensation, but the Migratory doesn't have a double wall.

> My posts will make more sense as I grow in experience.

Of course.


----------



## macmcp (Sep 18, 2005)

Michael

You mention you get the 1st regression for free, but you should eventually swap out the brood comb...

With what would you swap it ? No foundation on a couple of frames so the bees will draw their own ?

mac


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Just feed more frames with foundation or empty frames into the brood nest as the bees are strong enough to handle it. I would feed some in every spring anyway to avoid swarming. The first comb they draw will probably be about 5.1mm eventually they'll get down in the 4.7mm to 4.9mm range.


----------



## macmcp (Sep 18, 2005)

This gets more interesting, are we prompting evolution to smaller bees, or as they say, selecting for smaller bees in this process ?

I was reading about using starter strips (1" ?) with a new package on all 10 frames. Do they make plain foundation w/ no cell imprints, just flat, I could make my own once I get going with melted wax and a cooky sheet. I think in the old days thats what they did, or dipped a sheet of wood or metal in melted wax.

So this does not happen right off, but takes a few years, or no just with the right foundtion right away

tks mac


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>This gets more interesting, are we prompting evolution to smaller bees, or as they say, selecting for smaller bees in this process ?

How? I'm not selecting smaller bees, just letting them build their own comb.

>I was reading about using starter strips (1" ?) with a new package on all 10 frames. Do they make plain foundation w/ no cell imprints, just flat

No.

> I could make my own once I get going with melted wax and a cooky sheet.

Use a wet board soaked in brine and dipped in wax. It's quite easy. But I'd still cut it into starter strips.

> I think in the old days thats what they did, or dipped a sheet of wood or metal in melted wax.

Wet wood.

>So this does not happen right off, but takes a few years, or no just with the right foundtion right away

The large bees don't seem to want to draw as small of cells as a generation from those bees on smaller cells will. In other words, the first "generation" of 5.4mm bees will build around 5.1mm cells and the 5.1mm bees will build about 4.9mm and those will build 4.8 or sometimes even all the way down to 4.4mm cells.

You're just letting the bees go back to normal size.


----------



## victor schrager (Jul 21, 2004)

I have only used ready made frames with plastic foundation so far. Going to start a couple of packages with small cell in all mediums this spring. I have empty medium frames and deep sheets of Dadant small cell wax foundation with no wires. To what size should I cut the foundation sheets? The whole frame? Only 2"? Will the wedge at the top be sufficient to hold it in? If I use same for supers will they stand up to extractor?
Thanks.
V Schrager


----------



## J.G.McClain (Jan 18, 2006)

Why medium with small cell?

and 

Can you mix them from the start, 5 frams of 5.4mm from a nuc and 5 frams small cell in a deep?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I have empty medium frames and deep sheets of Dadant small cell wax foundation with no wires. To what size should I cut the foundation sheets? 

It's your choice. You can cut them to 5 1/4" and put them in as full sheets or you can cut them in half and leave a 1" gap at the bottom. Or you can cut them into starter strips. If I were doing starter strips I'd just do 3/4".

Will the wedge at the top be sufficient to hold it in?

If the wedge is still attached I use a wax tube fastener and wax them in. Sometimes full sheets, or starter strips will fall out when nailed in with the wedge. It will work ok nailed it. That's what I do if the wedge is already detached on a used frame.

>If I use same for supers will they stand up to extractor?

IF it's attached on all four sides a little bit and if you let it age a little (not brand new comb that was built in the last week or two) then I have had no trouble extracting gently at first.
>Why medium with small cell?

I'm using medium for the weight and small cell for the Varroa control. I assume Victor has the same goals. 10 frame deep full of honey = 90 pounds. 10 frame medium full of honey = 60 pounds. 8 frame medium full of honey = 48 pounds.

>Can you mix them from the start, 5 frams of 5.4mm from a nuc and 5 frams small cell in a deep?

Mix as in feeding small cell in or using a mixture of foundation? I would never use 5.4mm foundation at all ESPECIALLY if you want to regress. Putting both in is couterproductive. As starter strips it may not matter much but as full sheets large cell will just make them build large cells. Half the problem of regressing is figuring out how to get large cell OUT of the hive.

If you HAVE large cell comb and the bees are already on it, you can feed in the small cell and rotate the large cell out. Try to get the small cell in the center of the brood nest and try to get rid of the large cell.


----------



## macmcp (Sep 18, 2005)

Mike most bee keepers around Chicago area, I have talked to, suffered heavy losses this winter. Most said they suspected mites.

How have you done, ofcourse hopeing to hear good.

I just ordered two nucs for late april...


Mac


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My hives are booming right now. They're building up rapidly and it's January. I don't know if that's good or bad.







It's sure early. So far I lost one hive at my outyard and a couple of nucs here in my backyard.

None of these have been treated at all. Some of them haven't been treated for four years. There are five hives that are large cell, that I inherited this year, that may have a lot of mites. But I still haven't treated them. I keep thinking they'll go under eventually. But maybe they'll last until I get them regressed.


----------



## macmcp (Sep 18, 2005)

good news Mike. I looked up greenwood and it seems very similar to chicago...

PS The nucs here are $69 thru local bee club

mac


----------



## Hayseed (Apr 25, 2004)

Is it possible to split a colony so that one is a "shaken down" hive with only small cell foundation and a new queen? That would also allow me to move down to mediums from deeps, right? I'd still have the original queen, large cell and all but I'd be heading in the direction I prefer. Any specific pointers?

Thanx,
Dale


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Sure. I were trying to do that I'd leave one frame of brood and a frame of honey and a queen in the boxes at the old location and put the rest of the brood and honey at the new location. The frame of brood will help keep them from absconding. The frame of honey will help keep them from starving (I'd feed them too if there isn't some kind of flow). The field bees will all go to the old location and you won't even have to shake them out if you don't want to.

It's easy, during any kind of flow, to steal all the large cell honey. It's not so easy to deal with the brood. but you can move the brood to the outside edges. You can cut brood out of deeps and tie it into mediums (so you can have that one frame of brood to keep the bees from absconding). You can move the large cel brood to the outside edges so they will hopefully fill them with honey and you can pull them out. You can also move them above excluders to emerge and them pull them out.


----------



## Hayseed (Apr 25, 2004)

I guess I'm not following, MB. I was thinking I could obtain my own "package" by shaking out a well populated colony. That Colony would be similar to a purchased package and would be given a new queen and feed, and could be the beginning of a hive with SC and medium brood boxes.

If I put existing brood comb in the new hive, won't I be starting out with large cell again?

The old colony would still have all the brood, food and old queen to repopulate. I believe the old colony would have to be moved several miles away. Does this make any sense?

Dale


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I guess I'm not following, MB. I was thinking I could obtain my own "package" by shaking out a well populated colony. That Colony would be similar to a purchased package and would be given a new queen and feed, and could be the beginning of a hive with SC and medium brood boxes.

Sure you can. I was just saying how you could accomplish the same thing with no shaking and less chance of absconding.

>If I put existing brood comb in the new hive, won't I be starting out with large cell again?

I just talking about one comb in the new hive to anchor them. Shaking out an existing hive can sometimes make them want to abscond. A frame of brood does much to keep them there.

>The old colony would still have all the brood, food and old queen to repopulate. I believe the old colony would have to be moved several miles away. Does this make any sense?

If the old colonly is the "new colony" as far as new small cell foundation but the "old colony" as far as being in the old location, then the bees are drifting to the hive you were going to shake them into. I never move them. I just use natural drifting to my advantage or I shake some extras in if I'm afraid they'll drift anyway.


----------



## Hayseed (Apr 25, 2004)

Thanks - I get it now - Just gotta get my terms straight. I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer - just need a little honing now & then.
Thanx for the explanation.

Dale


----------



## LEAD PIPE (May 22, 2005)

I am getting a new package this year and I am considering going to small cell. It sounds very convincing for mite control, however, if small cell is the answer why did the mites decimate the feral colonies? (Which are using the smallest cells of all) 

Thanks


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=004417#000010
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004975#000008
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=004217#000014
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000187;p=4
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003380#000002
http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000192#000004


----------



## LEAD PIPE (May 22, 2005)

Thanks, I'm new at all this.

[ January 30, 2006, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: LEAD PIPE ]


----------



## LEAD PIPE (May 22, 2005)

sorry d.p.

[ January 30, 2006, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: LEAD PIPE ]


----------

