# Dartington hive.



## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Hi Greg 

As this a public forum I'll need to temper my words accordingly, but my opinion is that the 'Dartington Hive' is a blatant exercise in salesmanship targeted at beginners - with it being necessary to purchase both 'plans' and a book in order to own and run some kind of magic beehive. Most of the design revolves around gimmicks - divided roof, legs forming carrying handles, and so on ...

This 'need to purchase' sets the Dartington beehive apart from every other beehive design in the world, and although this lack of public domain information has created a degree of mystique (as well a putting a few miserable coppers into RD's hands), it's also resulted in an almost complete lack of take-up, with very few people using it - despite the sales hype.

When I compare such a hive made as it is from plywood, and compare it with some of the workmanlike deep long hives of eastern Europe I feel quite embarrassed to be British. Having said that, the basic concept of a deep framed box with several small supers on top is - imo - very sensible.

It's easy enough to make a Deep Long Hive box of course, dimension it's length to be twice(*) the length of whatever 'standard' box you have, which will then suit the width of 4 standard-sized half-width nuc boxes which can be placed on top. No need for any plans, or books on 'how to run this particular beehive' ...

The only possible improvement over scores of Deep Long Hives (apart from the supering) are the periscope entrances. Diagrams on page 5 of the .pdf you linked to shows the form of these entrances. Apart from those (which I'm not entirely convinced about - I'd much rather have entrances on a vertical surface, protected by anti-robbing screens), I'm sure there's enough information in that .pdf to make a replica - and to a much higher standard. I have a dozen 'Dartington' photos and a couple of text files I can mail you if needed.

There's one possible fault in the above design, and that's with regard to winter insulation. I have feeder shells permanently in place on top of Long Hives, all year round, which contain some 4" of expanded polystyrene. Perhaps you could line the inside of the Dartington roof with something similar ? 

Ergonomics ? Most of what you say is right - but check the photo top left on page 8. With a lightweight plywood hive you might get away with carrying like that, but not with a hive made from solid wood of any thickness - that's precisely why I cut my 4ft Deep Long Hive in half - far too long for one person to lift on their own. I'm 6'4", and 32" is about my max length for carrying comfortably - when empty, of course ! 

'best
LJ

(*) or one-and-a-half, and run 3x half-width shallow nuc boxes.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Hi Greg
> ......
> 'best
> LJ
> ...


Thanks for the review, LJ.

With my solid and thick (and heavy) wooden long hives - I like my way of transporting better..
Workman style, indeed.















Those Dartington legs/handles look a bit.... wimpy and not trustworthy as for me. 
As well, the center of weight for a loaded hive is too high and, hence, flipping the hive sideways, while carrying it, is rather too easy (I think).

I do like the idea of the small incremental supers; want to test out this season; of course, my own implementation.


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## nickhefferan (Jul 26, 2018)

I did enjoy the image of the author carrying a hive with himself, palanquin-style. There are some good ideas for sure. 









Actually, the rotating legs that allow for palanquin-style lifting without need for two extra poles is kind of neat.
Not much about the hive itself that is limited to using only 14"x12" frames though, should be able to apply most of the ideas to existing designs/frame-types.
Thanks for sharing GregV


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I corresponded with Robin Dartington back around 2000 or so. I never tried his exact design because basically it's designed around the common parts of a British Nat'l hive and the standard here, of course, is Langstroth. But it was interesting reading. O.O. Poppleton invented the "Ideal Hive" back in the 1800s. You might want to look up O.O. Poppleton in the old bee magazines that are now digitized out there on the internet and read about that hive.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

nickhefferan said:


> Actually, the rotating legs that allow for palanquin-style lifting without need for two extra poles is kind of neat.
> 
> Thanks for sharing GregV


I agree the idea is neat on the first look.

What is not neat - the high center of gravity with respect to the supports (points of attachments of those swing legs).
Try raising a heavy object with the supports positioned *low *and the center of gravity positioned *high*.
As soon as you attempt to start moving the object, you will feel how wobbly the entire thing will be.
Now try to actually move the live hive some distance in less-than-perfect setting (like some remote yard across a creek).

The "palanquin-style" picture demonstrates the flaw perfectly, in fact, if you know what to look for.
The problem is smacked right in front of you to look at.

Forget it.
For the most stability, the center of gravity must be at about the same level as the supports's level (not too high, not too low - about the same is best). 
When carrying the loaded hive with the live bees across some rugged terrain, one will appreciate the idea.
Nope - I am not implementing *that *design. 


PS: as a matter of fact, in the pics I posted the center of gravity is a bit *too low* and I know it (it was done by choice and for a reason); but at least a hive with the bees in it will not flip sideways when a carrier stumbles (could be ugly and best to avoid).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Michael Bush said:


> .... O.O. Poppleton invented the "Ideal Hive" back in the 1800s. You might want to look up O.O. Poppleton in the old bee magazines that are now digitized out there on the internet and read about that hive.


MB: thanks for sharing.


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## nickhefferan (Jul 26, 2018)

Michael Bush said:


> O.O. Poppleton invented the "Ideal Hive" back in the 1800s. You might want to look up O.O. Poppleton in the old bee magazines that are now digitized out there on the internet and read about that hive.


https://books.google.com/books?id=Vba4AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA268
found the Long Idea Hive in an old Gleanings in Bee Culture. Double-walled insulated long-Lang.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

nickhefferan said:


> https://books.google.com/books?id=Vba4AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA268
> found the Long Idea Hive in an old Gleanings in Bee Culture. Double-walled insulated long-Lang.


A very good find; thanks.

Look at the Fig. 3 - that is a long Dadant (I am pretty darn sure).


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregV said:


> I have been looking at the Dartington hive here:
> 
> http://www.thorne.co.uk/image/data/...LD INTRODUCTION SPRING 08 P CMP - 10-1-14.pdf
> 
> ...


There is a more documentation here https://www.omlet.co.uk/files/public/omlet_guide_to_keeping_bees_and_beehaus_instructions.pdf


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> There is a more documentation here https://www.omlet.co.uk/files/public/omlet_guide_to_keeping_bees_and_beehaus_instructions.pdf


Thanks!
Excellent PDF and I saved it for few hive ideas.

Do we know what are the deep frame sizes in this document?
I honestly tried scanning the PDF and did not find the frame measurements.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregV said:


> Thanks!
> Excellent PDF and I saved it for few hive ideas.
> 
> Do we know what are the deep frame sizes in this document?
> I honestly tried scanning the PDF and did not find the frame measurements.


This is 'monetized' Dartington hive with 14x12 frames, I think. Should be compatible with British National


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## guadamo1966 (Apr 9, 2019)

That's my issue with beekeeping. Too many gimmicks to sell instead of keeping it simple.


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## DocBB (Aug 26, 2010)

If you are interested I made a Sketchup of the original Plywood an Wood DIY Dartington LDH 








 here is *the link to the sketchup* repository


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## Robin Dartington (Jun 7, 2021)

GregV said:


> I have been looking at the Dartington hive here:
> 
> http://www.thorne.co.uk/image/data/Dartington/Dartington document/B2 DLD INTRODUCTION SPRING 08 P CMP - 10-1-14.pdf
> 
> ...


Hi, Whilst I have enjoyed reading this thread, it is rather uninformed. People seem to like praising/commenting without ever contacting me, despite my publising my email and the website of BuzzWorks Association Hitchin, the educational charity I have formed and which now runs 20 hives, DLD’s, DLs’s, DLeD’s and …Nationals, top-bar, Warre. (The first DLD was made in 1975… time has moved on!). So before posting more on this old discussion or a new one, please do let me know at [email protected]. Robin Dartington.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Seems just a bit intimidating.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> Seems just a bit intimidating.


You are in trouble.
Did you email Robin Dartington and ask for his permission "before posting more on this old discussion"??????
LOL


PS: oops, I just posted too.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Robin Dartington said:


> Hi, Whilst I have enjoyed reading this thread, it is rather uninformed. People seem to like praising/commenting without ever contacting me, despite my publising my email and the website of BuzzWorks Association Hitchin, the educational charity I have formed and which now runs 20 hives, DLD’s, DLs’s, DLeD’s and …Nationals, top-bar, Warre. (The first DLD was made in 1975… time has moved on!). So before posting more on this old discussion or a new one, please do let me know at [email protected]. Robin Dartington.


So set the uninformed folks straight.
What makes this hive tick?
What are the advantages?

looks to be a super able long hive.

GG


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> So set the uninformed folks straight.
> What makes this hive tick?
> What are the advantages?
> 
> ...


there is information in links above...


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I Looked up the hive for the first time and it looks to me like a supered Layens or Ukrainian hive.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

What I am putting together will be heavier and ugly by comparison but with enough depth to handle frames up to 20 inches in depth or have a filler put in the bottom to run shorter Layens frames. Could be supered with half frames or also with Standard Lang boxes and frames running lengthwise.

I cant see me paying high prices for a proprietary version or plans of an old standard peasant design. He undoubtably finds customers for what he is promoting but I think it is probably counter productive to his interests by getting upset when its value or uniqueness is questioned. 

Catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar!


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> I Looked up the hive for the first time and it looks to me like a supered Layens or Ukrainian hive.


I think it is a long hive for standard British frames....


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

jtgoral said:


> I think it is a long hive for standard British frames....


Yes, for sure, it is much the same as a long lang. 

I guess my point is that although it is a good plan and for sure people who do not do their own woodwork and wish for a hive with the ease of manipulation that comes from a long hive set up can be happy that they have a place to purchase such a hive, it is much similar to the supered Layens or any of the Russian supered hives that have been used for many years. Because it uses the standard British frames it is easy for a beekeeper to slap two British boxes together, or heck even three, removing the inner panel and then super that. So it is a nice hive but hardly a new concept.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

As a matter of fact, look at this picture and think for a minute about:
1)how exactly are you going to pickup an active hive from the standing position?
2)how exactly are you going to set an active hive back on the ground after moving it?

See a problem? 
I see more than one problem right there.
Picture how exactly are you going to perform the #1 and #2 moves.
I don't like the picture.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregV said:


> As a matter of fact, look at this picture and think for a minute about:
> 1)how exactly are you going to pickup an active hive from the standing position?
> 2)how exactly are you going to set an active hive back on the ground after moving it?
> 
> ...


and not everybody has a twin brother... But the hive management described in the book sounds good to me.


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## tiberius65 (12 mo ago)

GregB said:


> I have been looking at the Dartington hive here:
> 
> http://www.thorne.co.uk/image/data/Dartington/Dartington document/B2 DLD INTRODUCTION SPRING 08 P CMP - 10-1-14.pdf
> 
> ...


Seems the link is dead.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

tiberius65 said:


> Seems the link is dead.





https://mbbka.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Dartington-Hive.pdf


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