# OAV or Apivar?



## genusCastor (Nov 3, 2018)

Subscribed. 

- djb


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Mites more than double each month. If you start off with only 100 mites coming out of winter do the math. I would use two different treatments for varroa. OA vapor is great but with your long season you'll need to know your mite counts and vaporize alot if that is all you use.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

I run 20 hives and did an experiment this Fall once I got the supers off. I put Apivar strips in 12 hives and I OAVd 8 hives (6 treatments on 7 day intervals). Once completed, I did a single shot OAV in each hive, inserted sticky boards and did 48 hour mite counts. 

The results were great for both forms of treatment. However, if I had to pick a winner, Apivar was definitely it. My 12 Apivar hives all had mite drop counts below 10, most 0, 1 or 2. My OAVd hives were very good as well with several 0, 1 & 2 mite performers. However, I had one with a 65 mite count and one with a 75 mite count. 

Could be that these two hives just got bombed. But, I have had similar experiences with OAV series treatments in prior years where I just had these weird outliers. I have never had an outlier with Apivar. I am sure I will one day. Just my experience. 

My current game plan is to use Apivar once supers come off in the Fall and use OAV througout the remainder of the year to keep my mites in check. I am not ready to go to a straight OAV regimen yet. But I might get there one day. It would certainly be much cheaper.


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

I don't do sticky boards; are 50+ typical?

In August I did pre-treatment alcohol tests on 3 random hives and got 0,1, and 2 per 100. I can't imagine that many dropping. I did 4x5 OAV on all 20 and moved on. I'll do another test and at least one OAV in December depending on brood. In any case, I'll be surprised with much higher numbers.


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## Aaron.koe (Jul 7, 2018)

How often are you guys vaporizing? 
I’m hearing 5 and 6 treatments? I was thinking one and done for the season. So really I need to constantly monitor more count.

Clean my board and Pam spray it every week and anytime I see the mite drop count rise I should blast them?

What about the honey supers? Is it really feasible to be escape your supers, then vaporize them and put the supers back each time?


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

texanbelchers said:


> I don't do sticky boards; are 50+ typical?
> 
> In August I did pre-treatment alcohol tests on 3 random hives and got 0,1, and 2 per 100. I can't imagine that many dropping. I did 4x5 OAV on all 20 and moved on. I'll do another test and at least one OAV in December depending on brood. In any case, I'll be surprised with much higher numbers.


I don't think we are talking about the same thing. I am not talking about alcohol washes or regular mite drop monitoring on sticky boards. I am talking about putting the sticky board in and hitting the hive with OAV and coming back to count dead mites 48 hours later.


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## mybodyisatemple76 (Jul 30, 2017)

Apivar is extremely effective I saw counts in July of 25 mites in a alcohol wash on two colonies even after a 4 round 5 days apart of oav in July saw all my mite counts stay even if they were under ten in an alcohol wash and the ones above a ten rose by a quarter atleast even after 4 rounds of oav in July. so in August I took 12 hives and did 3 round 7 days apart oa dribble and took 6 hives and put apivar strips in them and left 2 hives without treatment and did a before and after alcohol wash on all 20 colonys and after the apivar every colony had 0 mites in an alcohol wash after the treatment and with the oav or oa dribble I always saw same results the mite counts always stayed close to the same in an alcohol wash when using OA or dribble i had 3 or 4 colonys that i did the oa dribble on in August that started at 7 mites in an alcohol wash and ended at 6 mites in a wash but the rest stayed the same. O and the 2 control hives mite counts doubled every month. Just my take on it I know that's a really small sample size but that's the results I got. I think apivar is really effective if you use as directed you can not use apivar with honey supers on and it has to be in every box that you have on the hive with the max dose being 4 strips per hive so you can't have more than 2 deeps on when you use apivar or it won't work that's where you here all the apivar restance junk that everyone keeps repeating on here. Use it as the label directs and it will work a lot better than oav I think atleast. I would have had to do 8 rounds of oav 5 days apart to see the same results that I did with the apivar. Just my opinion I'm sure people will disagree but do the before and after alcohol washes for yourself and see the results you get just what I got hope this helps or even makes sense.


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## Aaron.koe (Jul 7, 2018)

Thank you all for your extremely helpful advice. I guess i will invest in a 50 pack of Apivar assuming the expiration date is not a joke, and use both methods.

I am assuming you can use OAV with supers as long as you take the supers off while you are vaporizing, therefore being the benefit of doing something with Apivar can not.


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

Psm: I know they are different. I was surprised at these drop count and wondered if that was normal. 

Aaron: if there is brood, OAV must be done in a series over the cycle. I use 4 times 5 days apart; it seems to work better than 3 at 7 day intervals. I find it very effective, but clearly your results may be different. The trade-off is time cost vs material cost, assuming the effectiveness is equal. They aren't putting anything in the supers now, so you can pull them until the spring.


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

Aaron.koe said:


> I already have a nice Varrox vaporizer, a good 12V/12.5A transformer that ive tested with the Varrox, and enough wood bleach to last until eternity.
> 
> Is there any reason i should buy Apivar strips to suppliment my mite treatment? I have read there is no resistance buildup to the OAV, so i should just use that since ive already invested in all this equipment.... right?


OAV and Apivar are VERY effective at dropping phoretic varroa mite counts. OAV may to some degree kill reproductive varroa mites in the comb that has not been capped yet. You want to use an effective treatment that will kill and knock down reproductive mites hard. To my knowledge there are 3 treatments that will achieve this: MAQS, Formic Pro, and the Mighty Mite Killer. MAQS and Formic Pro are restricted from use above 85 degrees (I would not attempt to use it above 80 and probably more like 75 degrees or risk heavy brood losses or possible loss of queen), the Mighty Mite Killer has no upper temperature limit but the minimum temperature to achieve optimum treatment temperature is 70 degrees (with the use of well placed insulation you can probably treat in a much lower temperature like low 60's even 50's. 

In my opinion, the best option is to treat with a product that kills the reproductive varroa mites whenever possible and needed. OAV and Apivar are excellent follow on treatments for the possibility of elevated varroa mite counts during the Fall, Winter, and early Spring when it is too cold to treat with anything else.


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## Murdock (Jun 16, 2013)

It seems you are good to go. I would not use the apivar. To my knowledge there is no confirmation of resistance to OA. It is cheaper, immediate. and give a good kill ratio; all head shots.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

i think using different treatments is the way to go. I use OAV but i also use formic pro and apivar throughout the year.
The cost of these products pales into the losses of colonies and the cost of starting over with new nucs.

Both Apivar and formic pro are super easy to use. OAV is cheap and i do 5x5 rounds 2-3x/year of this in addition to the apivar and formic acid.


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## Aaron.koe (Jul 7, 2018)

I treated with OAV last weekend and I thought that would be a one and done for the year but it’s sounding like from you guys I need to do rounds of this treatment.


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## Aaron.koe (Jul 7, 2018)

Has anyone treated with OAV while having candy and winter patties inside the hive for winter feeding?


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

You can OAV with feed on. Watch out for SHB on the pattues; they will ruin a hive quick.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I just did a couple of rounds of OAV on mostly broodless hives. Alcohol washes a few days after the fact were averaging approx. 1 mite per 300 bee sample (found 9 total mites in 8 washes).


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## Aaron.koe (Jul 7, 2018)

texanbelchers said:


> You can OAV with feed on. Watch out for SHB on the pattues; they will ruin a hive quick.


When I harvested my one honey super, I found 5ish hive beetles crawling around.

I don’t know if that’s a high number or how many the brood might have. The super was half full. Ive always had beetle blasters installed but I don’t know their effectiveness.

I know we are in hive beetle territory in the south.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Every form of mite treatment has its pros and cons and a place in the treatment world. While PSM1212 has had issues with OAV, I have had issues with Apivar and MAQS too. In my opinion, if you have a hive with a major mite problem, Apivar works too slowly to bring it in line. What I do like Apivar for is hives in an out yard. Put the treatment on and come back next month. It does not get much easier than that. For areas with long extended fall nectar flows, it is not a very good choice for a late summer or fall treatment. Do you really want to remove the honey supers for 40+ days during a nectar flow? In my area, the last nectar flow I have ends about the 4th of July so Apivar works great for a fall treatment. If your flows are over for the year, a late season treatment when the queen is reducing her egg laying is a great time to use Apivar. The mites are spending more time being phoretic and get more time exposed to the Apivar chemicals. If you carefully think about how Apivar can be used in your apiary, you will probably find a good use for it.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

texanbelchers said:


> Psm: I know they are different. I was surprised at these drop count and wondered if that was normal.


I am new to attempting to monitor mites with OAV treatments, so I am not sure if that is normal or not. I had always done alcohol washes. I suppose if I have 20,000 bees (which is a wild guess) and OAV is 95% effective on phoretic mites, then my infestation rate is roughly 0.4% (if 75 mites are on the board). But I am not real confident in factoring it that way. Any suggestions or comments are welcome.


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## Aaron.koe (Jul 7, 2018)

dudelt said:


> Every form of mite treatment has its pros and cons and a place in the treatment world. While PSM1212 has had issues with OAV, I have had issues with Apivar and MAQS too. In my opinion, if you have a hive with a major mite problem, Apivar works too slowly to bring it in line. What I do like Apivar for is hives in an out yard. Put the treatment on and come back next month. It does not get much easier than that. For areas with long extended fall nectar flows, it is not a very good choice for a late summer or fall treatment. Do you really want to remove the honey supers for 40+ days during a nectar flow? In my area, the last nectar flow I have ends about the 4th of July so Apivar works great for a fall treatment. If your flows are over for the year, a late season treatment when the queen is reducing her egg laying is a great time to use Apivar. The mites are spending more time being phoretic and get more time exposed to the Apivar chemicals. If you carefully think about how Apivar can be used in your apiary, you will probably find a good use for it.


Very well said. Thank you


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## frances (May 14, 2014)

Ha what is Mighty mite killer I have not heard of this thanks


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

I use OAV in the winter because I don't have to open the hive to administer the dose. With OAV, there are some pitfalls that become obvious only after the fact... first you have to be sure that all the oxalic acid is sublimated. I have to do 2 sequential "burns", so 4 total minutes of heating rather than 2, to get all the OAV to sublimate. Otherwise it won't work. Second you have to have a hive configuration where the vapor will get to the bees. 3 deeps won't work. A top bar hive requires special care to get under the brood nest too. The final pitfall - treating BEFORE the hive gets a mite bomb, either due to incoming foragers from another hive that have mites or from your bees robbing and bringing back some karma. ;/ 

Apivar has a big advantage over OAV - it continuously kills mites over a long stretch (though not like a lightning bolt, as OAV does). This means a big influx of mites towards the end of summer won't be a killer for a hive with Apivar, in contrast to a hive treated with OAV, which can be treated in mid Oct then get mite bombed the next day....

And btw a mite count of 3/300 in my neck of the woods is too high - the hive might make it but it will be struggling with mites from the first step and those mites will get a serious leg up early on - hive might not even make it to August. OAV until you get a drop of 20....

And a drop of 100 mites means there were only about 100 mites total in your broodless hive - that ain't bad ending level! More than 200 for a more-than-nuc-sized-hive is cause for concern that your summer mite management was insufficient.


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## Bee Arthur (Mar 21, 2015)

I use both. Five hives each year get Apivar and the rest get OAV. I rotate them to try and avoid contributing to any resistance to oxalic acid.


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## beefarmer (May 2, 2010)

Also curious as to what mighty mite killer is?


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

For those asking about the mite killer, it was discussed here: https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?341558-varroa-heat-treatment


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## beereal (Jul 12, 2016)

Aaron.koe said:


> I already have a nice Varrox vaporizer, a good 12V/12.5A transformer that ive tested with the Varrox, and enough wood bleach to last until eternity.
> 
> Is there any reason i should buy Apivar strips to suppliment my mite treatment? I have read there is no resistance buildup to the OAV, so i should just use that since ive already invested in all this equipment.... right?


Dear Aaron.koe,

What 12V/12.5A transformer do you use for OAV? Could you please share the make and model number and/or a link?

Thank you,
beereal.


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

Live Oak said:


> OAV and Apivar are VERY effective at dropping phoretic varroa mite counts. OAV may to some degree kill reproductive varroa mites in the comb that has not been capped yet. You want to use an effective treatment that will kill and knock down reproductive mites hard. To my knowledge there are 3 treatments that will achieve this: MAQS, Formic Pro, and the Mighty Mite Killer. MAQS and Formic Pro are restricted from use above 85 degrees (I would not attempt to use it above 80 and probably more like 75 degrees or risk heavy brood losses or possible loss of queen), the Mighty Mite Killer has no upper temperature limit but the minimum temperature to achieve optimum treatment temperature is 70 degrees (with the use of well placed insulation you can probably treat in a much lower temperature like low 60's even 50's.
> 
> In my opinion, the best option is to treat with a product that kills the reproductive varroa mites whenever possible and needed. OAV and Apivar are excellent follow on treatments for the possibility of elevated varroa mite counts during the Fall, Winter, and early Spring when it is too cold to treat with anything else.


I wish to change my recommendation after a second season using MAQS. I treated about 50 of my hives with MAQS and the next day observed a disaster in which large numbers of bees and brood were killed. So far, 3 hives have either died or absconded and I expect a few more will. ALL foraging and other activity in the treated hives came to a halt almost immediately and about the only acitvity in some of the stronger hives was house bees dragging out dead bees and larva as well are robbing activity. I waited until the temps were about 70 degrees with following days in the mid 60's and I removed all of the entrance reducers. 

Upon observing the disaster that ensued using MAQS, I immediately changed over to OAV. The reamaining approx. 60 hives I treated with OAV are doing fantastic while the MAQS treated hives have all lost massive numbers of bees and are trying to recover. 

MAQS, Formic Pro, and ANY other Formic acid products are OFF my list of treatments. Formic acid is just FAR to toxic and destructive to honey bees. I strongly DO NOT recommend them. 

I will be sticking with OAV, Apivar, and thermal mite treatment which has worked well for me. 

In my opinion, used MAQS, Formic Pro, and any other Formic acid products at your OWN EXTREME risk to your bees.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Is there any way to make apivar strips at home, without purchasing the strips?

That is, is there something I can mix amitraz with to make my own home made apivar strips?


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## Apis Natural (Aug 31, 2017)

be careful with pure amitraz, dosing % wise pure amitraz is made for cows and pigs, that was the reason for some resistance to amitraz back in the 90's. 
Apivar is +1000x lower in dose, % wise, this is why it works so well now.
Back in the 90 when pure amitraz was being used to control mites, there were big losses due to the over dosing. 
With amitraz we didn't know then about what we do now with dosing regiments for honey bees.

Past amitraz use was like going to the Dr and them giving you 10,000mg of a drug when you are only supposed to dose with .5mg


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Live Oak said:


> I wish to change my recommendation after a second season using MAQS. I treated about 50 of my hives with MAQS and the next day observed a disaster in which large numbers of bees and brood were killed. So far, 3 hives have either died or absconded and I expect a few more will. ALL foraging and other activity in the treated hives came to a halt almost immediately and about the only acitvity in some of the stronger hives was house bees dragging out dead bees and larva as well are robbing activity. I waited until the temps were about 70 degrees with following days in the mid 60's and I removed all of the entrance reducers.
> 
> Upon observing the disaster that ensued using MAQS, I immediately changed over to OAV. The reamaining approx. 60 hives I treated with OAV are doing fantastic while the MAQS treated hives have all lost massive numbers of bees and are trying to recover.
> 
> ...


This is not an attempt to hijack this thread but I have 2 questions on the use of MAQS.

1. The instructions taken from NOD Global's website states "An entrance must be provided that is the full width of the hive, typically the bottom board entrance, minimum height 0.5 inches." Aren't most standard openings slightly shorter than this? That could be an issue and was pointed out in Randy Olivers article in Sept. 2011. He had no issues with his 3/4 inch openings but beekeepers with 3/8th inch openings had major problems. 
2. What ever happened to the instructions that recommended setting back the top box in a two box setup about 1/2 an inch for extra ventilation? I clearly remember seeing it and have always done so when using the product. It is not recommended if robbing is a problem but does add a lot of extra air in.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

I have been using Apivar during the last 4 years and have had a mortality by mites always below 1%. I have come to two major conclusions: is very good if applied at the right time (in my area in February and August); Is too bad if applied too late, with colonies with PMS it's better not even try. I do not forget that Apivar is a slow release medicine and should stay in my colonies 10 weeks.

I have a question: is it correct to treat with OAV and have supers in the hives?


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> I have a question: is it correct to treat with OAV and have supers in the hives?


It is not correct to OAV with supers on the hive unless you remove the supers during treatment or provide a barrier to prevent the vapor from entering the supers. The barrier for the supers can be removed at the same time you remove the barrier on the front entrance to the hive.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Live Oak said:


> I wish to change my recommendation after a second season using MAQS. I treated about 50 of my hives with MAQS and the next day observed a disaster in which large numbers of bees and brood were killed. So far, 3 hives have either died or absconded and I expect a few more will. ALL foraging and other activity in the treated hives came to a halt almost immediately and about the only acitvity in some of the stronger hives was house bees dragging out dead bees and larva as well are robbing activity. I waited until the temps were about 70 degrees with following days in the mid 60's and I removed all of the entrance reducers.
> 
> Upon observing the disaster that ensued using MAQS, I immediately changed over to OAV. The reamaining approx. 60 hives I treated with OAV are doing fantastic while the MAQS treated hives have all lost massive numbers of bees and are trying to recover.
> 
> ...


Yeah my wife and I are not fans of formic either. Even when used correctly it roughs the bees up too much.


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> Yeah my wife and I are not fans of formic either. Even when used correctly it roughs the bees up too much.


So it sounds like you prefer Apiguard over Formic Pro? I know you use others but just curious about your preference between the two of those.

I know you hear this a lot but great job with your videos Kamon!


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Apis Natural said:


> be careful with pure amitraz, dosing % wise pure amitraz is made for cows and pigs, that was the reason for some resistance to amitraz back in the 90's.
> Apivar is +1000x lower in dose, % wise, this is why it works so well now.
> Back in the 90 when pure amitraz was being used to control mites, there were big losses due to the over dosing.
> With amitraz we didn't know then about what we do now with dosing regiments for honey bees.
> ...


So basically what you're saying is that Apivar contains VERY LITTLE amitraz, yet they sell it for $3 per strip.

So home - made Amitraz strips, would cost very little.

Now I really would like more info on how to make home made Apivar strips.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

"One dose confirmation study was provided to support the 10-week treatment duration if brood is present. This last study was performed according with GLP principles in 2 French apiaries and the efficacy percentage exceeded 95%.
A list of published efficacy tests performed in Europe with the commercial product (France, Italy) was also submitted, including the different tests conducted in France by FNOSAD* since 2007, revealing an efficacy percentage superior to 95% as required by the Guideline.
As a result, the dose of 2 strips per beehive is recommended for 6 weeks if brood is not present or at its lowest level, and for 10 weeks if brood is present.
In addition, as the safety and efficacy of the product has only been investigated in hives with a single brood chamber (dose of 2 strips per hive/brood chamber), the use in hives with more than one brood chamber is not recommended." source: http://www.ircp.anmv.anses.fr/pdf/RPE331.pdf


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## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

I used Apivar strips when I first got my hives. Cost me a bundle, and, some bee supply places would not sell me more than a few strips. I then tried MAQS, only did that once, caused one hive to abscond. Now I OAV exclusively, and have for the last 3 years. I only have 4 hives, but I've never lost a hive, after that one colony absconding, and they all are health and happy. So, for now at least, I'll stick with OAV.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

e-spice said:


> So it sounds like you prefer Apiguard over Formic Pro? I know you use others but just curious about your preference between the two of those.
> 
> I know you hear this a lot but great job with your videos Kamon!


Oh yeah! We like having apiguard as one of our treatments! The 50 gram dose is a bit much when it is above 90 IMHO. I would rather cut myself with a dull hive tool than to start using formic again. It works but it is to rough on colonies and I like very large clusters. All of the crucial treatment times for me are in June and late August. The only time it can be used without insane colony disruption is pre spring and late fall when it is cool. Using formic at these times works but is unnecessary as the mites should be low if managed well and I don't want to rough up colonies before the honey flow or right before the go into winter. Thanks for the compliment on our videos! We are just getting warmed up! Lot of cool gadgets I just purchased!


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