# The wasted work advantage of Langstroths.



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

it is if you want your combs standardized - like needing them to go through a uncapping machine. Not wanting them giving you trouble coming out of boxes - I would only use a TB hive for comb honey production - but that's just me


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

buffaloeletric said:


> An argument I often see used by those against TB hives is that the bees have to build their own comb, therefore wasting effort they could be using to gather stores of nectar, pollen and so on. I notice that on Langstroths that they only start with a thin piece of foundation and that the bees still have to build most of their combs themselves. I know that having something to build on is better than nothing at all. But is that really a valid argument against Top Bars?


To harvest topbars you Destroy the combs so the bees have to rebuild them Everytime. With frame hives you can extract the comb and the bees Do Not have to rebuild them every time. I don't argue against topbars, you can choose any hive you want. But having worked with Langs for over 40 years Before I got some topbars, I choose not to expand my topbar apiary any more. I find them a cumbersome mess. 

For transportation most of us use the latest the latest technology - a vehicle with a combustion, hybrid or an electric engine. Not a horse and buggy.
For communication most of us use the latest technology, a computer, cellphone or smart phone. Not Pony Express delivering letters. 
So it makes sense to most of us to use the latest techonolgy in beekeeping, a movable frame hive.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

With a Top Bar hive, you really only have two options for harvesting honey: Cut comb or crush & strain. Both of those eliminate _reuse_ of the comb that formerly contained the honey.

With frames, both of the above options are still available, but a 3rd option of using an extractor to spin the honey out of the comb preserves 90%* of the comb for reuse/refilling by the bees.



* cells must be uncapped to use an extractor. The removed wax cell caps are not returned to the hive. With some uncapping systems it may be likely be that _more_ than 90% of the wax is returned to the hive.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Evey wax and wood frame has a lifespan of five or so years. The work advantage of the Lang system is compounded over multiple years, rather than being crushed at the first harvest.

A medium weight medium foundation sheet was 36-40 grams, the net wax weight of a drawn medium foundation is 85-110 grams. The wax added to the base is 50-65 grams. For an equivalent area in a TB, the first year advantage is about 40%. Top bar wax is thicker (on account of the need to support the dead weight of the finished comb), and the relative weights are approximate. Over 5 years, these 60 grams compares to 500 grams for a series of built and crushed TB.

For my apiary, every drawn comb is sold as a portion of a nuc -- and when I run out of drawn comb for the season, my sales end. Thus every frame represents about $25 of net profit in my business model. The ease of production of drawn comb in essential to nuc sales.

I read the title of this thread and my immediate thought was on the wasted work of the beekeeper -- in the Langs every frame+comb is interchangeable and easily lifted without damage. I can reconstitute any hive to the best advantage of the beekeeper very quickly--- inspect and optimize 100 + colonies in an afternoon. I've been on courtesy visits to TB backyards where the inspection of three hives takes the same period of time as combs are cut off the side, and wobbly comb is bent back into position, and the inevitable bulges are realligned in the TB order of bars. Slivers of spacers are tweaked into position like the feeler guages on a motor main bearing. (while I silent fume and glance at my watch).

TB are possible in a "boutique, hobby" milleu, and I will leave it at that.

Production using interchangeable parts (a la Eli Whitney's gin) is fundamental to the modern age. I wonder if knowledge of the history of American invention has been lost.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> For transportation most of us use the latest the latest technology - a vehicle with a combustion, hybrid or an electric engine. 

Many of us still *WALK* around too! One of the oldest methods of human transportation. 


>> Not a horse and buggy.

And sometimes a horse is the right technology. 
How about the guy that this weekend chased down a thief in a Walmart parking lot. The thief had a bicycle, and the "good guy" was riding his horse and used a lasso to capture and hold the thief til the cops got there.

http://www.mailtribune.com/article/20160610/NEWS/160619941


:digging:


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## buffaloeletric (Mar 11, 2010)

I learned alot there folks. Thanks for the info.


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

odfrank said:


> To harvest topbars you Destroy the combs so the bees have to rebuild them Everytime. With frame hives you can extract the comb and the bees Do Not have to rebuild them every time. I don't argue against topbars, you can choose any hive you want. But having worked with Langs for over 40 years Before I got some topbars, I choose not to expand my topbar apiary any more. I find them a cumbersome mess.
> 
> For transportation most of us use the latest the latest technology - a vehicle with a combustion, hybrid or an electric engine. Not a horse and buggy.
> For communication most of us use the latest technology, a computer, cellphone or smart phone. Not Pony Express delivering letters.
> So it makes sense to most of us to use the latest techonolgy in beekeeping, a movable frame hive.


Well that is one way to look at it. I have solar electric panels to power my heat pump. I also cut fire wood to heat my house. I use a chainsaw to cut the wood and a gas splitter I also have crosscut saws and axes. It all depends on what tool suits my needs and wants at the time. There are 'smart cars' and large pickup trucks, depending on the job to be done one is better than the other. Same with hives. BTW the modern top bar hives ARE the latest technology IIRC from the 1960s.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

All good points about Langstroth.

First of all top bars were initially developed for areas of low technology, to attempt to replace log type hives. So their purpose was for very low tech. (I have heard criticism that they were inappropriate compared to Langstroths in areas (such as portions of South America) where the tech level is higher). 

They have become popular in this country and some others as a sub-culture of beekeeping where they run into somewhat of a culture clash with traditional Langstroth hive beekeepers.

These are the advantages of top bars as I see them:

1) Build it yourself. My woodworking skill are rudimentary and I only have hand power tools (no table saw). I can build a top bar hive with those tools, I cannot imagine (particularly the frames!) building a Langstroth (I could imagine doing the outer boxes, deeps and mediums using simple butt joints, but AFAIK, the frames would be beyond my skill. Heck you can even build a top bar from cr*p.

2) Initial cost. If you do (1), and you source your lumber from a local sawmill or as in my case, from free pallets, your costs are low. If you were going to purchase a hive from the major suppliers, then I think the $$$ cost of top bars eliminates this advantage for them.

3) Lifting. Mostly, with top bars, you're only lifting a bar at a time. W/ Lanstroth's you're at times lifting shallows of 25-30 lbs and possibly deeos up to 100 lbs, I'm going to be 53 this year and hope in a minor way, that beekeeping on a small/moderate scale, could be a source of secondary income in my retirement (if it can ever happen). At 70+, I don't want to be lifting large loads intentionally.

4) Fresh comb vs. reused comb. This one is based on a philosophical difference. Top bar beeks are concerned about pesticides in the wax used for foundation, and the build up of disease in the wax over time. So they like the ideas of cycling even their brood comb out of the hive every so often. I have heard Langstroth beeks boast proudly in some cases that they are using their grandfather's brood comb.


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

crmauch said:


> All good points about Langstroth.
> 
> First of all top bars were initially developed for areas of low technology, to attempt to replace log type hives. So their purpose was for very low tech. (I have heard criticism that they were inappropriate compared to Langstroths in areas (such as portions of South America) where the tech level is higher).
> 
> ...


It all depends on what you want or have to do. I am 61 with a bad back, my grandchildren are 1, 8 and 10. Heavy lifting is not a good idea. That being said I have 2 long langes and one modified standard lange at my home and a top bar at the grandchildren's home. Maybe they will grow into heavy lifting but I know I will not.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

wax is made and comb is drawm by younger bees that are not otherwise producing anything for the colony anyway. what lost production?


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

Comb costs nectar that could be put directly into storage. And time with the queen waiting for egg laying space or for foragers a place to put nectar. To argue otherwise is foolish and I'm just a newb


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

buffaloeletric said:


> An argument I often see used by those against TB hives is that the bees have to build their own comb, therefore wasting effort they could be using to gather stores of nectar, pollen and so on. I notice that on Langstroths that they only start with a thin piece of foundation and that the bees still have to build most of their combs themselves. I know that having something to build on is better than nothing at all. But is that really a valid argument against Top Bars?


No, I don't think it is. For one thing foundation only replaces the central plane of the comb which is tissue thin when bees build it foundationless - I doubt if a frame of natural "foundation layer comb" would be enough wax to make a decent piece of chewing gum. So that alone isn't much of an argument against foundationless beekeeping of any kind.

Being able to reuse honey comb though? That's another matter. Top bar beekeeping is lots of fun - more power to you who do it. But it's probably hard to justify economically other than if you just can't afford "modern" equipment.


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

David LaFerney said:


> No, I don't think it is. For one thing foundation only replaces the central plane of the comb which is tissue thin when bees build it foundationless - I doubt if a frame of natural "foundation layer comb" would be enough wax to make a decent piece of chewing gum. So that alone isn't much of an argument against foundationless beekeeping of any kind.
> 
> Being able to reuse honey comb though? That's another matter. Top bar beekeeping is lots of fun - more power to you who do it. But it's probably hard to justify economically other than if you just can't afford "modern" equipment.


It all depends on your economics I guess. If you intend to harvest wax as well as honey a top bar/foundationless hive would give you a higher yield than 'modern' equipment. If you only intend to produce honey/wax for personal use how much equipment do you need???


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

A folding Lang sized frame that is split like a book, with hinges on the bottom, ( bike innertube is best) , and 1 inch chicken wire on the sides will allow you to spin out top bar comb, in a common extractor, and put it back easily. It's very good with Warre hives. You may want to consider those little topbar hives. 1 box size, 1 topbar size. And can be very simplified. The original plan is a standard size.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

And for all that worry about the wax supply being contaminated - plastic uncoated frames - coat with your wax if needed


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## brianjhagy (Jul 16, 2016)

That is true, the comb is destroyed, but the new fresh comb produced keeps the hive cleaner and more resistant to disease.


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## Steve56Ace (Sep 5, 2014)

dtrooster said:


> Comb costs nectar that could be put directly into storage. And time with the queen waiting for egg laying space or for foragers a place to put nectar. To argue otherwise is foolish and I'm just a newb


Oh, ok.


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## Steve56Ace (Sep 5, 2014)

brianjhagy said:


> That is true, the comb is destroyed, but the new fresh comb produced keeps the hive cleaner and more resistant to disease.



A key component to #TreatmentFree keeping. Don't worry, they'll make more.


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## Steve56Ace (Sep 5, 2014)

sakhoney said:


> And for all that worry about the wax supply being contaminated - plastic uncoated frames - coat with your wax if needed


HAven't bought any yet but yes that is correct. I put my clean wax over the waxed foundation knowing dang well the wax they use has pesticide residue in it. Studies have shown that bees recycle any wax for years even decades and the pesticide residue is there the entire time. It doesn't just go away. Even in a hive that has been "treatment free" for years. I recently was at a lecture on the topic. **** near depressing.


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## usngunr (Feb 21, 2013)

I also was given to believe that top bar hives are only good for temperate climates. Not suitable for wintering over a colony in frigid climes?


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

> also was given to believe that top bar hives are only good for temperate climates. Not suitable for wintering over a colony in frigid climes


That's like saying a bee tree won't over winter - bees will make it inside a 55 gallon drum if that's what there in


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

usngunr said:


> I also was given to believe that top bar hives are only good for temperate climates. Not suitable for wintering over a colony in frigid climes?


I would be interested in seeing that information. I have never heard of it. My understanding of the top bar hive. The Kenya top bar to be specific was designed to be made with materials at hand in ares where materials are scarce. but this did not have anything to do with the climate. It has nothing to do with being better for the bees. more natural or necessarily easier or more productive which I have seen such claims at times in various places. it was designed for people with little to nothing to be able to do something to keep bees and get anything from it at all.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Have both top bar and Langstroth hives. 
Real quick my ratio went from 2:2 (two tops bars and two langstroths) 
to more like 2:46 so it's safe to say that I prefer Langstroths 23 to 1 and that changes with every split. 
My ratio of keeping them alive is much better in Langstroths as well. 

Top bars are fun but not exactly in the main stream as far as treatment friendly and that sort of thing plus I'm finding I get way way more honey from my Langstroths. Re-filling the supers is a big deal.


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## usngunr (Feb 21, 2013)

That is what I was told by a Master Beekeeper when I started. They don't seem to do very well up here from what I've been told. 

The explanation was that it was harder for them to break cluster and get to stores in a top bar configuration in the winter.

Keep in mind it is anecdotal, that is why I asked. Is there anybody over wintering top bar hives successfully?


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Have two top bars in Champaign, Illinois USA that are doing ok. We had a fairly mild winter last year and I lost 1 out of two. Split the survivor this spring and recycled the combs from the dead out. They're TF except for they were fed some sugar syrup. Am experimenting around with the top bars and so far it's not that impressive. 
The dead out had honey and pollen so I'm assuming it was either mites or just them taking a left turn at Albequerque and ending up on the wrong end of the hive.


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## usngunr (Feb 21, 2013)

Thanks.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

My experiences with TBHs has been very good. I currently run 7 TBH hives, a long Lang and a standard 8 frame medium. I haven't had a winter loss yet, this will be my third season. I probably jinxed it, but my bees thrive in all of them. I think management and having good genetics have been the keys to my success thus far, less about the hive.


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

usngunr said:


> That is what I was told by a Master Beekeeper when I started. They don't seem to do very well up here from what I've been told.
> 
> The explanation was that it was harder for them to break cluster and get to stores in a top bar configuration in the winter.
> 
> Keep in mind it is anecdotal, that is why I asked. Is there anybody over wintering top bar hives successfully?


I know one of the promoters of TBH is Christine Hemenway. She's based in Maine, which should be cold enough to refute the "can't over winter" argument. I should note that she's not my favorite TBH author, but I recognize that she's doing is successfully (AFAIK) up in the north. Michael Bush is mainly a Lang keeper, but he's done a small amount of work with TBH, and I don't believe he had trouble with overwintering (and he's in Nebraska).


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## Chuck Jachens (Feb 22, 2016)

Cold weather survival in a TBH is very dependent on the insulation values above the bars. This is the major heat loss area. If the top is well insulated then the heat in the comb moves sideways to warm the next bar with honey. The heat stays at the top of the hive and allows the bees to move around the end of the bars. The sides also need to have decent insulation values so the hive does not lose too much heat through the sides.

If the hive is drafty then all bets are off. The bees will expend too much energy to warm the honey (energy source) and the bees have limits. If the bees can not create enough heat to move to the bar then they will freeze to death.

In a lang, the bees can move over the top of the frame to move sideways to the next frame.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Is there anybody over wintering top bar hives successfully?

I have had no more issues than any other kind of hive. Dennis Murrel is in Casper WY and has had no more issues than any other kind of hive.

The issue of "more work" is oversimplified or just wrong. Where the reuse of comb pays off is in time. If you have empty comb to give them when the flow starts they start putting away honey. If you give them foundation or foundationless and they have to build the combs first, they miss the first week or two of the flow. This costs you honey. The bees won't mind. Drawing comb is what they do. But you don't get as much honey. For the hobbyist who has only a few hives and more honey that they can eat, it probably doesn't matter.


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## Steve56Ace (Sep 5, 2014)

aunt betty said:


> Have two top bars in Champaign, Illinois USA that are doing ok. We had a fairly mild winter last year and I lost 1 out of two. Split the survivor this spring and recycled the combs from the dead out. They're TF except for they were fed some sugar syrup. Am experimenting around with the top bars and so far it's not that impressive.
> The dead out had honey and pollen so I'm assuming it was either mites or just them taking a left turn at Albequerque and ending up on the wrong end of the hive.


Where are the entrances located?


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Steve56Ace said:


> Where are the entrances located?


East Ends. One has a hole (1.25") at the bottom front and the other has a periscope entrance with the holes (three 3/4" ones) up high.
The one with the plain hole survived the winter last year. Just had a better fresher queen imo.







Picture is last year during the split process where I built the second hive. My wife loves them top bars because they're so cute. The hinged roof with white cedar shingles is a nice look.


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## Steve56Ace (Sep 5, 2014)

aunt betty said:


> East Ends. One has a hole (1.25") at the bottom front and the other has a periscope entrance with the holes (three 3/4" ones) up high.
> The one with the plain hole survived the winter last year. Just had a better fresher queen imo.
> View attachment 26645


Yes that is a handsome hive. I did one on a Medium Super once. They weren't that interested in it. Otherwise I doe a landing board w/ 3/4" entrance slot. With different reducers when needed. On my big TBH I did a camera room so they have a 4" "hallway" to get to the nest chamber.


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## CedarHoney (Oct 1, 2016)

aunt betty said:


> My wife loves them top bars because they're so cute.


And all this time I thought @auntbetty was a gal?


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## Chuck Jachens (Feb 22, 2016)

CedarHoney said:


> And all this time I thought @auntbetty was a gal?


In today's world that an assumption we don't make. It does not matter what gender Aunt Betty is or chooses. AUnt Betty's opinions, views, and politeness (I can not spell the word I really want) are the things I respect. 

Respectfully -


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## Delta 21 (Mar 4, 2016)

Comparing my top bars to my buddies Langs, my bees built twice as much comb from thin air as his did using wax and plasic foundation last year. He is slowly switching to foundationless frame Langs. 

I barely have my feet wet on this bee thing but my brain has been crunching on this little jewel every since I saw it! Not having to crush just one comb (and re-use it) will increase honey production by how much???















From here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?332667-Top-Bar-Hive-Design and here: http://teca.fao.org/sites/default/files/resources/Beekeeping with Apis cerana.pdf .

Pages 60-63.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Not having to crush just one comb (and re-use it) will increase honey production by how much???

It is a difficult thing to scientifically quantify because it depends on so many things. How short or long a flow is. How heavy or moderate or light it is. Most of the difference has to do with time. If a heavy flow hits and there is no where to store it the bees have to build comb first. This takes time and ties up bees building comb who could be foraging. The flow only lasts so long and a delay in a place to store it may cost a lot of honey in a heavy short flow. It will always cost some honey, but in a long moderate flow it will be much less noticeable. Then there is the efficiency of the wax workers. Young bees are more efficient. They become more efficient as they get more into wax working. So again, in a short heavy flow they never get that efficient. But in a long moderate flow they have time to get efficient. So the answer is: "it depends"


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Chuck Jachens said:


> In today's world that an assumption we don't make. It does not matter what gender Aunt Betty is or chooses. AUnt Betty's opinions, views, and politeness (I can not spell the word I really want) are the things I respect.
> 
> Respectfully -


Used to play Quake (version 1) a lot. That game made a huge deal out of when you got fragged or fragged someone. Announced who got you. I thought it'd be cute if it said "you got it from Aunt Betty". The nickname stuck. Using the same name in several forums. 
There's only one Aunt Betty. 
That is all.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

After keeping TBH's for a number of years one should learn to stock pile extra worker and storage comb. It's not difficult to achieve with management as any experienced beekeeper should be well acquainted in doing. It takes time and management to get there but saving enough storage combs of honey to feed for spring build up and worker comb to feed into the brood nests for each new season can make a big difference in your honey production at the close of your honey flow. Most notable in my experience is that a TBH will retain much more of the honey they have produced due to storing it on the wintering combs, but with timely management you should be able to do alright. It may take you several years to acquire the knowledge and work out a system that works for you just as it does for anyone starting out.
One thing I would say is you want all your combs to be interchangeable. For me, I have always used home made wax starter strips across the length of the bars and have never had an issue with curved combs. I only use 1 1/4" to 1 3/8" bar through out my hives.


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## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

my bees would never accept that.

I'm totally foundationless let the bees build what they want. I find they think 1 3/8" is a hair too small, and by bar 12 they are well exceeding 1.5" by a millimeter or two. I use shims like crazy and they still want to build big comb. 

So, they are healthy (mostly) and happy, but big. bigger than I expected. (I was expecting a magical reversion to sweat bees or something, perhaps; didn't happen).


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

AvatarDad said:


> my bees would never accept that.
> 
> I'm totally foundationless let the bees build what they want. I find they think 1 3/8" is a hair too small, and by bar 12 they are well exceeding 1.5" by a millimeter or two. I use shims like crazy and they still want to build big comb.


Most likely they are offsetting the mid rib from the bars center at some point which progressively worsens with each new comb. Using a 1" wax foundation starter strip down the center of the bar is the beginning of the mid rib and always will be. The bees don't shift the mid rib off that. Using a drawn out storage comb as a barrier that is moved along to give room to build new comb as they build out will help in keeping cell walls from being over extended. With that you may still need to butter back some cell walls that are over extended to maintain proper depth to the bars.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Delta Bay said:


> After keeping TBH's for a number of years one should learn to stock pile extra worker and storage comb.


I'm really starting to see the advantage of this. I generally consolidate comb during summer dearth and find that rarely will the hives need much brood comb back come Fall. The extra comb I have going into Spring helps tremendously. I started TBHs for cost factors. I've built my apiary to a point I'd never been able to if I'd had to buy the equipment needed. Sure, I'm not going to get as much honey as someone using frames and an extractor. I've got more than I can use, for certain. This year I'm looking to sell bees locally. If I sell half of what I intend to I've paid for my whole hobby going on my 4th year and potentially twice that. There should be no competition between a Lang system and a top bar hive. They don't operate the same. If one were looking to make money off of TBHs, think bees and wax. You're still going to get quite a bit of honey in good years from my experience. I own both. I prefer TBHs.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I didn't read all of this thread, but enough to ask:

If you are building top bar hives, why not build one you can super with standard Lang equipment during the appropriate time of year? After honey harvest you just run them back as top bars?
You get your broodnest area below on foundationless frames, surplus honey on frames you can extract. 

So you can't have a lid that is hinged. 

Why one or the other? Hybrid equipment. I use it. Love it. You might too.

Long Lang 2 queen bottom:










Partial foundationless frames:










Combination of two different styles to make a more versatile product.

If you are fabricating it from scratch, why not built it with the features you want?


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Lauri said:


> I didn't read all of this thread, but enough to ask:
> 
> If you are building top bar hives, why not build one you can super with standard Lang equipment during the appropriate time of year? After honey harvest you just run them back as top bars?
> You get your broodnest area below on foundationless frames, surplus honey on frames you can extract.
> ...


Hey Lauri,

I like the potential this has to offer. I've built a medium long Lang this past year that will hold 8 frame medium supers. I'm going to try it out and see what I think. I am considering some sort of frame/frameless system in the future where frameless bars would be spaced 3/8 for brood nest and supered with frames which could be extracted. That could be good way of managing frame costs. I'm hoping to put the money I make this year from bees back into equipment, mainly wood cost. I see the potential of hybrid hives for sure and hope to try more out in the future. I'm too wet behind the ears to have made my mind up about anything for certain so will continue to experiment. Hope that aspect of my own beekeeping doesn't change as it's a big part of the fun to me.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

You can even use lang boxes and top bars to super. Just add sloping sides.


















Even my bottom boards are hybrids. I take the best features from each style and combine them.

This stout bottom board has excellent wintertime drainage, good summertime ventilation without being too drafty.
I get no bearding with this design, perhaps nectar is cured and capped a little faster. Lots of room for high summer populations to congregate in the evening /early morning without being crowded









If you look at European designs, you'll see many of the old school beekeepers use an extremely deep bottom board. Especially over winter.
In a well prepared single deep configuration such as a top bar hive, the top half or so of the comb should be capped honey, the cluster of bees below that, hanging by a chain well below the comb going into winter. As winter progresses, they'll make their way up into the honey, little by little, each week. They need room below the bottom of the comb to do that.
Although this photo is not wintertime, it does show the bees hanging far below the existing naturally built comb. If were a winter cluster, the top half would be capped honey and the bees would all be below










As this big OB hive has grown, they've had all the room in the world below. They never jumped down and made a mess


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I like your routered bars. Very nice. I was thinking of doing something similar with 3/4" bars and tacks for spacers. The problem I have is I bought into a smaller footprint width wise than Lang frames. What I will do in that case is probably build custom boxes and run the frames perpendicular to the bars. My outside width is about 16". Essentially, I'd open up the front of the brood nest to 20" with the 3/4" bars with spacers, super with custom box and frames perpidicular to bars, leaving the top bar hive with bars throughout the remainder of the hive. Hope this makes sense.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

That's a beautiful picture on the OB hive. You've got me thinking about a lot of potential possibilities. Always find your posts enjoyable and informative, the pics always help to bring home the message. Thanks Lauri.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

usngunr said:


> Is there anybody over wintering top bar hives successfully?


I had, note had, no issue wintering them. it was spring swarm control I ran into issues with. FOr me and very possible it is me. swarm management is far more intuitive and effective in a lang.


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## erikebrown (Oct 27, 2014)

I'm fairly new, but have overwintered top bars. One last year and working on two this year. Bees just need enough space to cluster and and enough food to keep them going.

As to management, I find TBHs easier to manage than my Langs. I only pull one one frame at a time, and the bees are much calmer. For swarm control you just stick an empty bar in the brood nest and it keeps them busy. I rarely need to use smoke.

I have TBHs because they are fun. I'm not in this to make money, and I love watching them build out comb in what used to be empty space. I know I can do this in Lang or a Horizontal Hive, I just choose to do it in top bar hives. I have Langs too because I wanted to understand the differences. Not sure what I'll do in the future.

Erik


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