# Miter vs. Box Joints



## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

The miter joint would certainly reduce moisture getting in and swelling/warping the wood. A good paint or sealer will work too! The problem is supers get dropped and not on the side, usually on the corner. This puts the most stress on the joints knocking anything without a great bond loose. Glues, adhesives, long screws help, but grain to grain contact is the strongest joint. The miter lock would work to eliminate exposed end grain and still provide more surface area than the straight miter. If you were absolutely gentle and never dropped a super it might last. Rabbet and box joints are the most common because they seem to last longest in use. I made rabbet supers exclusively for the last 5 years, but now I have a CNC saw that cuts the box joints tight without a bunch of labor on my part. I used to use Titebond III, but Liquid Nails is lasting longer.


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## TxFirefighter (Dec 14, 2010)

I'm not really an expert, but the only thing i can see in regards to a box joint vs a miter cut is more surface area available for the glue.

Painting the exposed end grains throughly should impede/prevent rotting. Especially if you use an oil base.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

I'm not a master woodworker nor a woodbutcher either, but I would be afraid of that joint method not being strong enough for the weight being stacked on it and also the stresses of being popped apart when proplized together, but shoot, give it a try just keep an eye on it. At the least, you can use it for a starter box eh?


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

We have good results with the Miter Lock and will stay with and Tite Bond III. No nails no screws. Take care and have fun


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

I've thought about this issue for years.

Every option has its benefits and drawbacks. Our old boxes always rot on the corners first. In wetter climates it might be other parts of the box that go first. Some people just buy cheap boxes. Skip on good paint and replace as needed. I like to build them to last until they either fall off the truck or some dummy (usually me) runs them over with the forklift or truck. 

My bet is that the regular style cuts are better if they are treated and painted correctly. Your question is one of strength vs longevity in the rotting department. 

The mitered cuts will have less exposed ends (good) but unless the are handled with kid gloves they might crack easier (at the end point) with all the tossing most bee guys do. Bet the bottom pieces get busted before a regular box would. 

Recently I've been trying to figure a way to place a 1/8 inch thick piece of angled aluminum at the corners of a "weather proof" box I'd like to build. Haven't figured that on out yet. Trying to eliminate some of the places where the supers break easily. 

If you are looking for long life I think that treating the wood and / or using $30 a gallon paint will make a box last longer than most beekeepers will when applied correctly.


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

I might agree that the miter joint boxes would outlast the box joint boxes.

However, the ease of assembly with box joints much outweighs the effort required to get the miters perfectly aligned while screwing them together.

Painting and good glue is the key to longevity of the boxes.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

I will have to agree with the paint being the most important part of a well made box. This will keep the end grain dry, glue joint dry and protected from UV rays, keep the outside of the wood dry to help in preventing cupping and warping which will also break the corner joints.

Even cheap paint if applied when needed will help out, a good pressure washing on the outside (just don't over do it) before painting will also help.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Alex Cantacuzene said:


> We have good results with the Miter Lock and will stay with and Tite Bond III. No nails no screws. Take care and have fun


How many boxes have you made with this joint and how many years have you had the boxes out in the field?
Hobbyist application or commercial?


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

Simple test. Turn 3 deep supers - ea. one made with a different type joint - on their flat sides and sit on each. Which one do you feel is the most safe? Have tried all three joints over many years, painted cypress box joint is preferable to the others. OMTCW


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

fuzzybeekeeper said:


> IS there a reason that bee boxes are all made comercially with box joints? I think it is for strength, but I'm not a wood worker.
> 
> Fuzzybeekeeper


Is there a difference between "finger" joints and "box" joints? I have always heard the joinery in beekeeping refered to as finger joints.

Cheaper and easier to build machinery to cut them is my guess why finger joints are used instead of miter joints. And mostly they have been put together w/ nails, not screws. Also, wood was cheaper a while ago, compared to today, perhaps. So, longevity wasn't much of a problem, I think.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Miter joints are absolutely the weakest way to join 2 pieces of wood at an angle that there is. It's a cosmetic joint not a structural one. When it does fail in an application like hive bodies it will usually do so all at once with little or no warning - you pick up a box and it falls apart. Or even worse you put too much weight over it and it collapses under the whole stack.

Your old box jointed hive bodies failed because nothing lasts forever, and the exposed grain is the most vulnerable spot on an excellent joint. How many of them just fell apart without any warning? If you want them to last longer use more rot resistant wood. 

They've been made like that for so long for good reason - not because box joints are cheap or easy. Only dovetails would be any better - or even as good.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

dittos Dave.

Couldn't be better said


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

well put dave.

If you are still wanting to make the miter joint stronger you could install a spline in it.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I'm not even sure that I accept the premise that miter joins are less exposed to moisture. Don't get me wrong, I understand the reasoning, but in reality a lot of moisture comes from within the hive and not all of it is liquid water (also water vapor). Only a perfectly tight miter joint could exclude water, but a box has a long side and is not as easily joined with a miter as a picture frame. Even the smallest gap on either side of the joint is an invitation for water access and thus wood movement. Even if the joint starts out perfect, small changes in moisture content and aging of the wood would lead to small openings. Since standard miter joints are all end grain, any access by water or water vapor will cause unrestricted movement. Even a locking miter is end grain which does not form a strong glue joint. The increased surface area of a locking miter is an improvement as is the physical nature of the joint, but it still has less structural value than a box joint. A box joint has a huge surface area of long grain making it extremely strong, but it has exposed end grain which will absorb water if not sealed. I will continue to use box joints and a judicious application of oil based paint to the end grain. When I glue, I go out of my way to cover the end grain contacts in the joint, not for anything structural, but to exclude water. I don't think any joint will last very long without some way to manage water absorption. Even three inch long screws will fail if nothing is done to prevent the wood from repeatedly expanding and contracting around the screws threads. Perhaps a better joint would be a dovetail but machining a dovetail on a production level would be a bit more difficult and alignment of joints for the end user could be a real mess if a pallet of boxes happen to lose or gain water during shipping and/or storage.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Is there a difference between "finger" joints and "box" joints? I have always heard the joinery in beekeeping refered to as finger joints.


 Same thing.



> Cheaper and easier to build machinery to cut them is my guess why finger joints are used instead of miter joints. And mostly they have been put together w/ nails, not screws. Also, wood was cheaper a while ago, compared to today, perhaps. So, longevity wasn't much of a problem, I think.


Finger joints take much more time and more tooling. Miter joints would be far easier to cut but you wouldn't end up with very many repeat customers.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

3 inch screws?

If the screw is centered on the miter joint isn't there only about 3/8" of wood to be grasped (if 3/4" wood is used).

Long screws hold 3/4" box joints very well. And with the endgrain sealed with glue, they won't be coming apart.

West System Epoxy could hold the mitered corners... but it's pricey.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

HVH said:


> Finger joints take much more time and more tooling.


Takes me about 10 minutes to set up and adjust my home made jig and make a test cut on scrap wood. Then, it only takes about 3 minutes to make all the finger joint cuts for a medium box.

I'll save the 10 minute set up time when I remember to buy a new miter gauge that I can permanently affix the jig.

Wayne


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

The shear strength in nails or staples is greater than in screws. Built my first pallets with screws but switched to nails after I got tired of leaving half the pallet on the ground with the screws sheared off (didn't take many times).

We staple all of our boxes with 2 inch sheeting staples and no glue. No complaints about the strength--they survive drops fine. In fact, had some boxes full of honey fall off a trailer on a dirt road a couple of years ago and were still almost square.


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## fuzzybeekeeper (Nov 23, 2005)

From BeeCurious:

3 inch screws?

If the screw is centered on the miter joint isn't there only about 3/8" of wood to be grasped (if 3/4" wood is used).
*****************

I use 3-inch LONG #8 (I can't get #6 in the 3-inch length). I was taught that the length was more important than width.

My reasoning for using the 3-inch length is that the extra length IMO should hold the box "squarer". 

Also, on to many of my older boxes that are built with the nails that are sent with the boxes, the nails are becoming loose and working their way out. Any time I find a loose nail, I pull it out and replace it with a 3-inch wood screw.

I use "star" bit decking screws. They have "cleats" along the threads and I have never had a wood screw come loose.

Fuzzybeekeeper


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I understand the use of long screws... but it seems of little use when gripping so little wood.

Box joints hold better.

I could tap a few boxes together... without fasteners, and without glue, stack them up, and sit on them.


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

I just made a few swarm traps and moving nuc boxes for next spring. I have a decent amount of wood working experience. I have made finger and dove tail joints in the past and they have worked well. Like others have said protecting the wood in the biggie. I love oil based primers for their penetrating ability and 2-3 topcoats of a semigloss latex for durability.

For these new boxes I did not want to get so elaborate for boxes that were going to be temporary. So I uses a relatively new method of joinery. I used pocket screws. Making sure all you cuts are true and square I installed a pocket screw every 3 inches with titebond III on the joint.

I was impressed. Very tight and true joint. I set the box on end and sat on it and it held just fine. I would try that joinery in a full deep without question.

If you are not familiar with pocket screw joinery google kreg


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

Pocket screws can be very strong. If you keep the moisture out, this joint should last a long time. The only downside is that your glue joint is weak (end grain) with almost all the strength coming from the screws. If the corners open up a little then moisture will work on those corners because there is no long grain contact for the glue to hold together.


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## MastoDon (Nov 29, 2010)

I'll make a guess. Considering how long ago Langstroth came up with the hive box design, it is very likely that the box joint was the strongest method for joining perpendicular pieces of wide wood in common use at the time. (Actually, dovetail joints might be marginally stronger, but would have taken much more time to construct.) The box joint would still be pretty strong, even if not glued at all, which might have been a factor back in the day that waterproof glues were non-existent.
So, why not simple miter joints today? There is little doubt that they'd be easier to construct, but not overly strong unless there was an internal spline which would add stability but do little to control the sort of swelling that wide wooden planks tend to undergo with humidity differences (whether painted or not). So, even with a splined miter joint using modern glues, the seasonal wood movement (as much as 8% to 10% of the width of a board) would likely result in a weakening and eventual failure of the joint.
Finally, considering the tendency of wood not only to swell and shrink along the width, but also its tendency to warp or cup away from the radial grain, I would hesitate to use a simple miter joint for something that was going to placed outside.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Personally I have had a mix of finger joints and straight joined boxes. 100% I agree the finger joint boxes are stronger. 100% I agree finger joint boxes rot faster. Nuisance rot spots too like upper or lower corners seem to be prone. Structurally speaking I have never had a straight joined collapse on me. This includes have 3 pallets high on a trailer for over 3K miles. I am not trying to convince anyone of which type to buy. I have had straight joined boxes get struck on the corner and immediately have to go back into the wood shop. If you can save 3-4 dollars per box maybe its better in your situation to buy the straight joined boxes. Maybe you are so hard on your boxes you can't live without the finger jointed boxes. Just my take on it.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

If I may give some woodworking info. Basic wood anatomy. . . What you have in all wood is "long grain" and "end grain". Trying to make this understandable for everyone if you look at a tree and cut it down. When you see the annual rings, that is the end grain. If you cut that tree to make 2x4's or whatever, the face of it is long grain. (Your dining room table top is "long grain") When you miter the boxes you have all end grain. You can't glue end grain it won't stick. Try it on a scrap, put your screws in and let it cure for a week or so. Then take the screws out and see how hard it is to break. It's like if you take a bunch of straws on end and try to glue them together. The only strength you'll gain is from whatever fasteners you use. Using a box joint is much better because it allows for long grain to be touching long grain. This is one of the reasons why dovetails are much superior. The other reason why dovetails are better is because it brings both pieces tight together. Box joints are strong, but also easier to produce. So who am I? To give you a little of my background. . . I went to school to learn to make reproduction furniture and worked with Charles Bender for a year after school (www.acanthus.com check out the company part) and some of what's on his site I made when I was working there. Secondly the nail issue. . . I've found in working on my own projects that the smooth shank nails don't "grab" the wood as other types of nails do. I've been told that the twist shank nails work better, but haven't found this to be so. What I've found is that using nails (I don't know the technical name) that have a rough shank, or kind of like a bunch of rings on the side, these grab and don't let go. I've put 2x4 walls together using these and had made a mistake, but counldn't get them apart. I don't think I've seen these types of nails for anything other than a framing nailer, but if they're there then you should be able to find them in other places. (screws would work also for box joints)
If you do use miter joints just realize that they won't last and be prepaired for that. One other thought. . .Perhaps the reason why some of the box joints that others have mentioned that they don't glue them is because the bees do "glue" them themselves. Propolis is strong stuff. 

I hope these thoughts are helpful. Happy building!!


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## SquareDeal (Aug 3, 2010)

The ring shank nails that you refer to are available in many sizes as hand driven nails. Check out http://www.mazenails.com/ for the best.
Now, I'm wondering why no one has mentioned a biscuit joiner in this discussion. Properly done, a you will break boards before you break a biscuit joint. I spent years doing exterior trim on million+ dollars houses and my recipe for success was good wood, ring shank nails, biscuits and the best glue I could buy.
That being said, I am still using finger joints on hive bodies and experimenting with other joints on supers.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Biscut joints do better than a plain miter joint, however someone else mentioned a "spline" which is the same principal as a biscut joint only in my opinion would be better. A biscut is a small football shaped piece of wood that would bring long grain together, however it's short. A spline goes the whole length of the miter. I don't have experience with exterior trim however I do have plenty in interior and on cabinets. Trim basically is using whatever it's attached to for the main support. I'm curious as to why you would use a biscut joint on exterior trim? Maby it's so the joint doesn't open up. When I've done interior work we coped the joint so that any amt of moving would be taken care of and you wouldn't see the joint open up. I guess a biscut joint would work to keep some of this under control. As far as "mass production" is concerned I still think that a box joint is faster and easier to assemble. 
My understanding of beekeeping. . . Ask 5 people about something and get 6 different answers. Try it out and see what you observe. That's the beauty of it all!!


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## SquareDeal (Aug 3, 2010)

I use biscuit joints on both interior AND exterior trim to prevent joints from opening as the wood expands and contracts over time. It gets so dry in houses here in the winter (especially with wood stoves) that the joints can really open up. 
Same happens outside when the moisture content of wood can go from 6% to 20%+ over the course or a year -which by the way is what causes paint to peel and flake off. It is for this reason that I have always tried to use oil based stain rather than paint on exterior wood. When it needs touching up all you have to do is hit it with a wire brush and re-apply. No scraping involved, and it looks like new when you're done. Stain soaks way into wood and provides protection way below the surface that lasts and lasts while letting the wood breathe.


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## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

miter joints will hold for many years. tight joint. titebondIII. clamp till glue dries completely. wood fails before joint breaks. weather has no bearing. box joints work also. dovetails work. finger joints work. we are not doing bridge work here or we would be using welds and hot rivets.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It seems to me that water runs back into the joints and paint goes on the end grain that is exposed. So how do you come out ahead.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I agree with oldforte.....unless you are migratory, and move multiple times each year, virtually any joint, including a simple lap, will outlast the bee keeper. (at least in my area, which is South Central Kentucky). I use box joints but only because that is the more accepted commercial version. If rabbit joints were easy to assemble they would be just as good. I used them for years, never had a problem with them. And they are fast to make. Most commercial boxes are box joints for ease of assembly, and pretty much square themselves. They are made for bee keepers who are not cabinet makers.

My advise is, make any joint you like, are comfortable making, a coat of paint every 3 or 4 years, and enjoy bee keeping. Don't worry about the joint, any joint will out last most beekeepers. 

cchoganjr


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## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Hello Odfrank et al. I made about five so far with the Miter Lock joint, see MLCS and others.
It all started with a friend giving me an old 4' x 8' x 3/4" hard wood piece of plywood. I did not want any of the layers exposed and so I tried it. With a bit of care in the set-up on my home-built router table and about two passes it went great. Amazingly all sides fit together perfectly right from the beginning. I had a flat table, clamped the boxes lengthways with cheap pipe clamps and tested at the end for squareness across the diagonal. Very little adjustment was needed. I also built medium boxes with yellow pine and had good results. So far I think they are out in the weather now for three years and are holding up fine. I made a test piece corner joint about 10" x 10" x 6 5/8" just to see what it held. I put my body weight on it (250 + lbs) with my hands and it did not budge. I am a hobbyist and tinker with a lot of things and with this item I am quite satisfied. I doubt that it is economical for a commercial wood operation but for small operations I would not use anything else. Another advantage is that you can cut the pieces to the exact outside dimensions length and widthwise without any corrective trims etc. I doubt that a simple miter joint will do the trick, it has to be the miter lock joint. Hope this answers some of the questions. 
Take care and have fun.


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