# Starting off with a TBH or Warre hive



## timbale (Aug 9, 2010)

Is it a good idea for a first timer to start with a TBH or Warre hive?
The more I read, the more intrigued I am with this "style" of beekeeping and I would really like to try it.
What are the pros and cons, compared to the Langstroth hive?

Thanks!


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I started this year with a kenyan top bar hive. I had some experience around the bees of my father and grandfather, but I would say that if you go this route, be prepared for a steep learning curve. There is not a lot of support out there either. You can find it online, but even there, you often wait a while before you get a useful answer to the exact problem you have.

That said, I do like them. There's lots of room for experimentation and that can be fun. I might try the Warre next year too, but I'm also wondering if I might just stick with these (I have 5 of them built - two with bees) and try to really get proficient with them.

Each hive type does have a drastic effect on the experience of beekeeping with them.

If you go with a ktbh, I advise a big one (4 feet long) and I would use 1.25" wide bars with .25" spacers to add room for honey. I did two sizes, and I think one size and spacers might actually be easier. I also would advise putting in a window and a screened bottom board with a cover. I don't have the screened bottom, and now I'm having an issue with mites, and it's hard to count 'em or dust for them.

Adam


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## toekneepea (Jul 7, 2010)

timbale said:


> Is it a good idea for a first timer to start with a TBH or Warre hive?


It might depend on what's legal in your State. I'm fairly certain that Warre's are illegal here in my home State of Massachusetts.

TP


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## timbale (Aug 9, 2010)

I'm still waiting to hear from the State Inspector.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

just out of curiosity, why would a warre be illegal in your state?

If it's because of the perception that a warre is a "fixed comb" hive, the solution is simple, don't nail or attach the top bars to the box. 

I have seen Warres with top bars separated with spacers and/or with holes drilled in the ends to slide over pins that keep them spaced correctly and prevent them from sliding in the box.

Big Bear


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## toekneepea (Jul 7, 2010)

bigbearomaha said:


> If it's because of the perception that a warre is a "fixed comb" hive, the solution is simple, don't nail or attach the top bars to the box.


Perhaps it's that perception, or mis-perception.

The county inspector will be the speaker at my club's next meeting in a few weeks, and I'll be sure to ask - and report back here.

Tony P.


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## SteveBee (Jul 15, 2010)

With absolutely no beekeeping experience, I started a TBH this summer. I didn't get started until July, so I was already behind schedule as far as the bees were concerned. I joined my local beekeepers association and haven't met anyone yet that uses TBH's. Now, three months later, with countless hours of internet research, four or five beekeeping books, and some helpful forums, I think I understand how to properly manage the hive. Fortunately for me, I got smart bees who seemed to know what they were doing!

The best advice I've gotten so far has been from this site. With what I've learned, I plan to build seven more hives this winter and am confident I can properly manage them. But, it took me longer to learn than a Lang hive would've.

Adam Foster Collins has offered me what I consider excellent advice with good explanations. I see you've already met him.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Don't count on Warré combs being removable, even if you don't pin the bars. The bees will attach to the sides, and they are about 50:50 likely to build diagonally across several bars.

If you want (nearly) guaranteed removable combs in a Warré, use half-frames.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

> If you want (nearly) guaranteed removable combs in a Warré, use half-frames.


This is true.

Big Bear


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

That's not evolution, but adaptation to local circumstances.

adoption for the vanity of a few.

The Warre hive works just fine "as is", it doesn't "require" the adaption, the location/use does.

The frames that phil mentioned were those that Abbe Warre included in his book mentioned for adapting his hive to a different use in terms of migratory pollination as opposed to setting up a "honey farm" where the hives are not moved.

Big Bear


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## beez2010 (Dec 9, 2009)

Just a few points I want to mention.

Firstly, leaving the top bars unfastened to a Warre hive body will not give you movable combs nor will it satisfy many inspectors who will insist on movable combs. The combs are fixed by wax, not nails. Half frames work well for keeping combs movable as do full frames, like the ones used in our modified Warre hives.

Secondly, one should always ask permission from his or her state inspector if one thinks a particular hive may be illegal in his or her state. Many inspectors are not concerned with enforcing 100 year old laws when it comes to hobby beekeepers.

Thirdly, there is alot of good Warre hive information on our site (always a work in progress) and I will personally take phone calls from any potential customer and give free mentoring to any customer who needs help with Warre beekeeping. Just go to the contact page and get my phone number.

I will not give my opinion of KTBHs here, because I don't want to start a debate. Let's just say that I could make lots of money building and selling them, but I don't and I won't.

Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

www.thewarrestore.com


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

Chris,

While I don't live in a state that requires movable combs, I have had great success with unattached bars and a comb knife like this one: http://warre.biobees.com/cutter.htm

So far, with the combination of starter strips and the comb knife, I haven't run into a comb I haven't been able to remove from any of my 12 Warre hives I've tried it on. 

Cheers,
Matt


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

timbale,

Most of my customers start with horizontal top bar hives for a number of reasons. As a new beekeeper, they have had little to no interaction with honey bees and the internal going-ons of the hive. By using a hive that has both a window and easy access/management, it drastically increases their basic understanding of how a colony functions. If managed properly, the combs on your horizontal top bar hive will be easy to remove, which is something that may not always be the case with a Warre hive. The greatest benefit of the horizontal top bar hive, in my mind, is the enjoyment of management, without the need for boxes, and the opportunities for education.

Regarding Warre hives: After one gains an understanding of honey bee colonies, Warre hives become a fantastic option, as they are very simple to manage, which makes them scale much better than the more time consuming horizontal top bar hive. You will also generally have a larger honey surplus from Warre hives than horizontal hives, if that is something that matters to you. If you're looking for a hive to manipulate/inspect/etc., then the Warre system probably isn't for you. The greatest benefit of a Warre hive is the low maintenance, honey surplus and success rate.

As to Langstroth hives, I don't like much about them. They're unwieldy, annoying to inspect, I don't like frames, and I have easy access to Warre and HTBH equipment!  

Personally I run around 8 horizontal top bar hives, 12 Warre hives and a Langstroth hive (for educational purposes) in my own apiary. As I expand I will continue to expand with Warre hives. If I just had one hive I'd probably have a HTBH. If I had only two hives I'd have a HTBH and a Warre.  

Cheers,
Matt


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

I (almost) entirely agree with Matt. My only niggle is that I have had less success with the Warré - and that may be down to two v. poor summers (before this one) and/or bees-with-attitude and/or he is a better beekeeper!

Vertical hives, because bees store honey above them, will always yield more honey than horizontal hives - or at least - more accessible honey. And you may then have to feed them more than you would a horizontal under similar conditions: take more, put more back.

If you don't want to do any lifting and you mainly want bees for education, interest, conservation or local pollination, and storage space is at a premium, the hTBH is a simple, low-cost option.

If honey yield is more important and you have a good back, the Warré is a good choice.

If you want a shed full of spare parts and to keep your local beekeeper supplies depot happy, get some Langs!


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## timbale (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks so much for all of the input, folks!
A quick question - How do you go about checking for mites with a TBH?


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## honeybeekeeper (Mar 3, 2010)

Take a look at the picture, its my top bar hive that has a screened bottom with a 1x8 hanging underneath about 4-6 inches. I have a strip of alum flanging cut to length that i place underneath the top bar hive and i use a light coating of vaseline with a brush so the mites will stick in order to do a mite count.....Thats my invention....


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

Matt, if I ever get to Oregon, I have got to buy you a soda (or whatever you drink).

Your ahead of me a bit in the Warre side of things. I expect to increase my warres much more next year. It oo only run a couple of Langs for educational purposes (one because the frames fit my obs hive and the other for new beeks to learn on).

comb attachment inside a warre is solved with a serrated bread knife pretty easily. even langs can have brace comb that attaches the frames to the sides.

I even put together a ttbh with warre box inside dimensions to start swarms and cut outs in, then when the bars are drawn, I can transfer them to warre boxes.

Big Bear


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

Today I was adding a bee escape to this Warre hive. I started each of these boxes with unattached Warre bars and popsicle sticks centered as guides. No wax whatsoever. 










As you can see, the comb is very straight!

Matt


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Matt - do you use a wire to separate boxes? I ask because it looks like that comb has been cut.


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

Phil,

I don't use wire. I simply insert a hive tool at each corner, tilt upward, and once the combs are broken free I lift it off. Generally the bars below have enough comb and propolis holding them in place that they don't come up as well. However, if the bars below start to shift due to attachments above, I cut them free. 

Matt


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