# Top Bar Design



## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

It's really up to you in weighing out the cost/benefits of putting in the time, energy and resources to add the type of framing your referring to. I have little trouble with my top bar hives in quickly cutting the brace comb from the sides of the hive and removing the bar without breaking it. The only time I generally have issues is when I'm in a hurry and don't take the time to cut it properly. 

In my mind it's not worth the hassle of adding anything more to the bars. 

Matt


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

A word of caution, I actually tried this on a few bars, the bees make a mess when they like to cross comb these side extensions to each other, the combs are pretty strong, I even wiggled a brood comb a bit like heavy paper  the main thing will be getting straight comb, and I found out from this forum that you just need other straight comb and put a blank bar between when you do comb renewal, this way you can keep them all workably straight with little effort, honeycomb is another matter 

It is a bit of work when you start a hive because the bees tend to cross comb a bit but once its going its easier. Even foundation-less lang hives have to put a blank frame between 2 nice ones.

Sam.

P.S. Simplicity becomes more important if you plan to build 20+ hives, 30 top bars each 600 top bars?


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Thanks for the replies.

I'm only planning to build a few, so I was thinking that the extra work might be fun. However, it may not be worth it.

Sam, do you have any pictures of the design you tried with sides?

Also, what do you guys think of the best overall box size for a TBH? This is one I'm torturing over now. I have one based on the backyard hive "golden mean" design, which is 29x18x11. But that seems small to me... What is your experience?


Thanks again,

Adam


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

I have built some top bar frames, mostly for cut outs being transferred to a KTBH. Otherwise, frames really are not necessary.

The best tool I learned about to use in a tbh is the serrated bread knife. simple, gets the job done without tearing things up.

Big Bear


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> Also, what do you guys think of the best overall box size for a TBH? This is one I'm torturing over now. I have one based on the backyard hive "golden mean" design, which is 29x18x11. But that seems small to me...


I consider the 17" topbar is nice, you might want a bit more length. Better biger then smaller.


Sam.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Other useful tools I adopted, when I ran a TBH last year, were those extra large grilling tools: I used the tongs to lift up any chunks of wax and comb that fell to the bottom, and the big spatula to reach forward and carve off any side attachments the bees made. 
The advantage of these tools were that I could reach thing in the hive, while my hands were out of the hive.


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## raosmun (Sep 10, 2009)

I made one TBH last summer (mid-july) for a swarm. This one is the angled sided type. The bars are 1 3/8 X 19" of 3/4" shorts with a 1/8"+ saw kurf on center length, poured in wax. Length is 47 1/4". The other two I am making are nomore than 47 1/4" lang. deeps, here I am making the bars 1" wide and will use 3/8" spacers or standard deep frames (with or without foundaion), or any other modified frame/topbar. The reason for going to spacers: I can remove the required number of spacers and place a super on top of the TBH or just use the spacer/bar arrangement in the area for the super.
Trying to make something simple and flexable as possible. I am getting tired and too old to be lifting 50>90# boxes full of honey/bees!!
P.S. I put a swarm in the TBH mid-july and they have comb better than half way compaired to an adjecent hive (another swarm) started about two weeks before in a lang. with only 5 full frames now, don't think they'll make it.


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

I guess more info is better, I use 1-1/4 wide topbars with 1/4" spacers for honey comb, less then 1-1/4 is imho to small, I also tried the wax kref type topbars, and the pop-sickle stick kind. I like the triangles, it gives a lot of depth to encourage straight comb and is pretty durable, I cut them on a table saw, if you get the angle and gate right you can cut perfect triangles with one setting, just flip the wood over and cut again, sort of like /\/\/\/ with the 7/8" stock I am using makes about 7/8 tall by 1-1/4 wide triangles. I bent and flattened a closehanger to form a J cutting hook then I tempered with a blowtorch, this makes a really nice attachment cutter that you can gently pull towards yourself along the wall of the hive, bees hate the thing btw 


Sam.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The only time strength is an issue is with brand new comb full of new honey. Once the wax has aged a bit, it's not an issue. I try not to mess with such combs. Also, of course, you need to make sure it isn't attached to the sides before pulling it out...


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

Sam-Smith said:


> P.S. Simplicity becomes more important if you plan to build 20+ hives, 30 top bars each 600 top bars?


Amen. I was building 10 horizontal top bar hives (300 bars) and went 1 3/8 inch across the board with two waxed popsicle sticks in the kerf.

Matt


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Thank you all for responding.

So sides or reinforcements aren't necessary for strength - but a side extension which came down from the bar on an angle consistent with the sides (leaving a 3/8 space along the outside) - would this be likely to minimize attachment?

...and if it did, would it be worth the effort of making it?

I've been doing a lot of math lately, and I've found that a tbh of 32"x20"x12.5" actually has a comparable interior volume to 2 deeps and one shallow Lang box - once you subtract the volume which is occupied by the frames of the Lang. So if the bees really maximized their use of space in the tbh, they end up with room for a pretty big colony.

I started by thinking that bigger would be better up to 4' or so, but then I thought about moving the thing if the need arose (which it might, given that I'm planning to keep them in the city). And I also like the idea of building it in "golden" proportions, mentioned by backyardhive.com

Applying a 1:1.6 ratio means that a 48" long hive is 30" wide and 18.5" tall. This is too big for me. Going with 32x20x12.5 will make it a little larger than the "Golden Mean" model offered by Backyard, and it's where I'm planning to start.

...unless the collective wisdom here steers me away from that...


Adam


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

30" wide is way to much imho, that's a lot of comb on one bar. I don't think side reinforcements would help, I have seen center ones before, I found they get creative with comb placement if its not simple enough, they tended to cross comb at the side braces for me, like from one bar to the next ones side brace. Comb strength isn't a big issue as long as you don't more the hive without letting them attach comb first.

Sam.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Agreed Sam, the 30" of width seemed huge to me - so using a golden mean equation on a 48" tbh is not doable.

This is why I'm thinking of a 20" bar.


Adam


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

Why do you want to use the golden mean? Call me practical but choosing a width based on lang compatibility or available materials makes more sense to me.

Sam.

P.S. If anyone is interested I compiled my design into a pdf file http://www.twiglist.com/Sams-tbh.pdf


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Sam,

Well, I'm not sure. According to Backyard, they've had noted improvements in production in those dimensions, and they look nice, which is not a huge deal, but doesn't hurt. I guess I'm thinking, why not use the golden ratio? 

I guess I wonder what dimensions really 'work' in relation to a lang frame, with straight sides, at least a width of 20" will accommodate a shallow and medium frame if necessary...

I'm really in the research phase of this now, so your points are important for me to consider. 32x20x12.5 seems workable...

Adam


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So sides or reinforcements aren't necessary for strength

No.

> but a side extension which came down from the bar on an angle consistent with the sides (leaving a 3/8 space along the outside) - would this be likely to minimize attachment?

It's irrelevant, but probably. It's not the problem you think.

>...and if it did, would it be worth the effort of making it?

No.

>I've been doing a lot of math lately, and I've found that a tbh of 32"x20"x12.5" actually has a comparable interior volume to 2 deeps and one shallow Lang box - once you subtract the volume which is occupied by the frames of the Lang. So if the bees really maximized their use of space in the tbh, they end up with room for a pretty big colony.

20" is pushing it. I'd go 19" just for the convenience of being able to use a Langstroth top bar, but that is pushing it a bit as the comb tends to curve on the ends and the longer it is the more likely it will run off the top bar.

>I started by thinking that bigger would be better up to 4' or so, but then I thought about moving the thing if the need arose (which it might, given that I'm planning to keep them in the city). And I also like the idea of building it in "golden" proportions, mentioned by backyardhive.com

The Golden mean hive is a better size than their other hive, but I think the proportions are irrelevant. I like longer and shorter bars as they are less likely to mess up the combs, the combs are not as heavy so they break less easily and are easier to handle and four feet seems to be an easy size to get them to work. You won't be able to move a top bar hive by yourself anyway. How does 4' hurt?


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Michael,

You quote on your site: The number one cause of problems is solutions.

Very true, so now is the time not to create those problems - before I get started. So you're suggesting that 20" (and even 19") is too long a bar, but you like 4' for the length of the box. So what width and height do you like for a 4' box? 

And...

Wouldn't a shorter box length be likely to help overwintering?

Adam


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

I didn't even think about comb running off the bar, I was just thinking of workability but that's a good point. From what I have heard and it makes a lot of sense, when bees winter they keep their cluster warm but that's all they keep warm. Kinda makes sense since feral bees will nest in large cavitys sometimes and do really well, plus the energy required to keep a large area warm is huge compared to just keeping a comparatively small cluster warm.

Oh yea, if you use follower boards you basically make a smaller space for your hive, its a lot harder to go longer latter then shorter this way 

Sam.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

I ended up with a KTBH that is 46.5 x 16 x 12 (actually, more like 11.5) OD.

I use 1.25" and 1.5" top bars ( brood and Honey respectively)

I went with these dimensions based on the number of top bars at those sizes will fit "almost" exactly between the end boards (with just enough sliver of gap for maneuverability in between) and the inner dimensions come close to those of a 'standard' Lang hive.

This also allowed me to use 'standardized" lumber from local Menards or wherever and use a 1x8x12 and a 1x12x12 to build hive, top bars and one follower board.

(2 boards -$20)

Big Bear


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Very true, so now is the time not to create those problems - before I get started. So you're suggesting that 20" (and even 19") is too long a bar

I have several that are 19". It works, but they tend to run off at the ends a bit. I made them to take top bars or standard medium frames.

> but you like 4' for the length of the box.

It seems to be the longest I can make and they seem enthusiastic about filling it. Much past five feet is, imo the max.

> So what width and height do you like for a 4' box?

Bees can easily handle a wide variety of sizes, but I think a crossection that is about the size of a cluster of bees works best for overwintering. That's probably about a 12" circle. But it also depends on the design. A KTBH or a TTBH will change the size of that circle somewhat even with the same top bar.

>Wouldn't a shorter box length be likely to help overwintering?

Not in my experience. Bees tend to move through the hive in winter. if the hive is more long (like a hollow tree) the cluster tends to eat all the stores as it moves. if it's too wide they tend to leave a lot behind. Again, a cross section the size of the cluster seems to work better than one that is larger than the cross section of the cluster.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

And what of the angle of the sides? I've read that there is little benefit to sloped sides over straight, but is there any variation in attachment of combs depending on the degree of slope at all? Do you get any less attachment with extremely sloped sides?


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

I'm not sure about attachments but you do get a structural more stable comb since the largest part is attached to the bar.

Sam.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>And what of the angle of the sides? I've read that there is little benefit to sloped sides over straight, but is there any variation in attachment of combs depending on the degree of slope at all?

In my observation, no difference at all.

> Do you get any less attachment with extremely sloped sides?

I've never done "extremely" sloped sides.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Okay,

So would you say that there is a benefit to making the dimensions of the hive as large as is functional and manageable? I'm thinking that you would try to make the hive able to accommodate the largest colony you could, before having to split them. Is this in line with your experience?

Adam


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## luvin honey (Jul 2, 2009)

Hi, AFC--It's exciting to see so many folks getting into topbar hives. I just came through my first summer with them and really have enjoyed them. So, I'm a total newbie and what I say should be taken with a grain of salt. 

I had one colony definitely swarm, possibly twice, and I believe a second colony swarmed also. Both were split twice to form a third thriving colony. I have a 4' hive (can't remember the top and bottom widths, but approx. 15" and 9"). So, just keep in mind how fast colonies can build up. Might depend on what breed you go with--mine were Italians--but don't be fooled into thinking that 4' is so huge that they won't fill it quickly. 

Good luck!


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

luvin honey said:


> Hi, AFC--It's exciting to see so many folks getting into topbar hives. I just came through my first summer with them and really have enjoyed them. So, I'm a total newbie and what I say should be taken with a grain of salt.
> 
> I had one colony definitely swarm, possibly twice, and I believe a second colony swarmed also. Both were split twice to form a third thriving colony. I have a 4' hive (can't remember the top and bottom widths, but approx. 15" and 9"). So, just keep in mind how fast colonies can build up. Might depend on what breed you go with--mine were Italians--but don't be fooled into thinking that 4' is so huge that they won't fill it quickly.
> 
> Good luck!


Yea 4' seems like a nice length, lots of space, works with most stock, also fits in my car nicely 


Sam.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Well that's just it, I know very well that colonies can build up rapidly in the right conditions, and I want to make sure that the design of the hive is as large as is comfortably workable.

So at this point, it seems that 4' is about as long as you want, with 5' feet being the limit. Bar width shouldn't really get longer than 18" or so, and the height usually doesn't exceed 12.5"

So if I go with a design 48x18x11, does that sound reasonable to you guys?

Adam


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## BRescue (Jul 2, 2009)

Does anyone have any pictures of their creations? I would like to try top bar hives also and am located in lower Michigan. Any special precautions for overwintering? I like the thought of size equating to an overwintering cluster which means no untouched (uneaten honey)frames like in the outsides of the Langstroth after a cold spring.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Two more questions:

What entrance size do you use in your tbh?

and is there a wood that you WOULD NOT use? I don't want to use ply, just because of the adhesives in it. No huge deal, just a preference there.

Adam


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

The entrances I use are 7/8" holes I drill a few, reason for 7/8" is that standard wine corks fit this perfectly makes a nice way to reduce their entrances. I use pine because I like the wood, ply wont last 1 season the glues disintegrate and then so does the ply. I bought some cedar planks to build a couple of hives from them but they were not dry and warped/shrank a lot, the guy I buy my wood from doesn't dry his cedar.

brescure I have some pics here

http://s803.photobucket.com/albums/yy317/topbarsam

Plus I made some plans for these hives, maby they can give you some ideas.

www.twiglist.com/Sams-tbh.pdf


Sam.


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## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

If you make your hive to fit lang frames you also have the option of putting supers on if necessary. If you have langs as well, you can switch brood around or stores if necessary. Think now and make sure that what you make is compatible with what you want (or may end up with) in the future.


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## Brodes (Nov 5, 2009)

So I understand the thought process in planning the size of the TBH so that supers can be added if desired in the future and seems like a shwred plan. 

If one is crafty enough and plans ahead while building their TBH then what is to stop them from building a super that matches the box they just built and use top bars in that as well? I would think that the hardest part is in the desighning of the cover so that water does not leak into the hive once the new super is put in place. A split cover/roof comes to mind where there is a shiplap type joint that would allow the cover where the super is to be installed to be placed onto the new super and the stationary cover would have some kind of flashing detaill that would make the rest of the box remain weather tight.

I am new and am working at absorbing everything written so if I am way off base please let me know so I can learn.

M


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## doc25 (Mar 9, 2007)

Go to BWRANGLERS website and do some reading there. I found the long hives very interesting. Michael Bush has some info on them as well.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What entrance size do you use in your tbh?

I use the gap in front of the first bar. 1/4" to 3/8" will do. I drill no holes and do not do any woodworking to make an entrance.


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## DavesBees (Jun 2, 2009)

Do Da Do Da,
My 2 cents worth.
Biobees TBH but the sides and ends are cut from a single piece of 2 by 12 -12 feet long. This makes a 4 foot hive. I use 2 by 4 legs.
Dave


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## BoBn (Jul 7, 2008)

I was thinking that it would be cool to make a TBH out of a basswood log. Like a dugout canoe. If you cut the tree down in the winter, the bark would stay attached.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

BoBn,

If you do that with the log, please take pictures - I'd love to see it, but there's no way I'd ever have the energy to do it myself! 

Adam


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## DavesBees (Jun 2, 2009)

BoBn,
You might consider a species that is not such fine bee fodder as american linden or basswood. Bees don't seem to care where they live but they sure do care what they eat.
Dave


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## BoBn (Jul 7, 2008)

Basswood is very light and easy to work. It has been traditionally used for canoe paddles and duck decoys. There are plenty of basswood trees around my area. I cut one done once in a while when it is "in the way" when I am cutting firewood and/or doing improvement work on my woodlot. They tend to thrive on the edges of the woods, roadways and fields. I never cut "boundary" trees on the stone walls or edges of the property. I also leave any dead trees. 

White pine or butternut would be ok to use too, if you could find a 4' log that is fairly knot-free.


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## laurelmtnlover (May 29, 2009)

BRescue said:


> Does anyone have any pictures of their creations? I would like to try top bar hives also and am located in lower Michigan. Any special precautions for overwintering? I like the thought of size equating to an overwintering cluster which means no untouched (uneaten honey)frames like in the outsides of the Langstroth after a cold spring.




I really like the design of my TBH. See www.customwoodkits.com

I think Joey, the builder, is a fan of Hirschbach, not a name I see often here, but is worthy of a good look:
http://hirschbachapiary.com/default.aspx


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