# EFB? Waiting on my test kit



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

From the pictures I think your diagnosis is unfortunately correct. It would be nice to run one of the test kits to confirm.

One method of euthanizing is closing the hive up tight and pouring in a bottle of high purity alcohol. Drug store 95% I think is available. I used a spray can of ether starting fluid.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

the brood in your pics looks pretty much the same as what i saw with my efb infected colonies, especially with respect to the yellowing of the dead larvae and jelly.

soaking the bees with soapy water is another effective way to euthanize.

where part of the united states are you located in megan?

was this an established colony of yours or one that you recently purchased?


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## meganmarie (Aug 26, 2016)

I'm in southern Oregon. This is a new package of bees from northern California. I've heard the concerns recently about getting packages from the almond pollinators and I'm guessing that may play a part. I have 2 other hives that are local from a guy that splits each year.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood. hopefully you moved the infected colony away from yours and any others before it could spread. please keep us updated as to how it all turns out.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

meganmarie said:


> I'm so sad. 5 hives. One is much weaker and the larvae look like this. Mite check was ok. I'm guessing EFB with the other recent posts and the pictures I've seen. If my test kit is positive I'm going to euthanize the hive to hopefully keep my others safe. I've moved the affected hive. And wont share equipment. I'm devastated and hoping I'm wrong. Any ideas? Also, I cant burn right now. How do I euthanize?


IMO that colony is not bad enough to euthanize. There's quite a bit of capped brood, and there's still some healthy looking uncapped brood. 

Keep this in mind: If one colony has EFB, any other within drifting distance has it too. 

I watched EFB in 2 or 3 infected colonies spread to EVERY one of my colonies within 7 days. 

Get your antibiotic and begin treatment immediately on all hives.


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## ApricotApiaries (Sep 21, 2014)

You do NOT need to kill EFB infected colonies. Feed them and requeen them, do a mite sample. PMS and EFB can look pretty similar. Nutritional support goes a long way. A short brood break goes a long way. 
For southern oregon, Look up "Noah's Bees" he should have queens available, really nice guy.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

ApricotApiaries said:


> You do NOT need to kill EFB infected colonies. Feed them and requeen them, do a mite sample. PMS and EFB can look pretty similar. Nutritional support goes a long way. A short brood break goes a long way.


this advice is outdated given recent findings of highly virulent strains of efb that may have resistance to antibiotics and for which destruction by fire is highly recommended.

the strain that affected my yards this spring spread very quickly and took down 2/3rds of my colonies despite excellent weather and very strong pollen/nectar flows. the economic toll on my little sideline operation is in the many thousands of dollars.

it is also coming to light that this bacteria can survive for a long time in honey and beebread, causing the infection to rebloom post-treatment, and why destruction by fire is becoming part of the plan of action.

efb may resemble pms and this is why sending a sample to the bee lab in beltsville or using a vita efb field test kit is critical obtaining a definitive diagnosis and for determining what action to take.

experts at the bee labs are confirming an increase in efb report cases over the past couple of years. anecdotal reports are linking recent outbreaks of efb to package bees shaken from colonies post almond pollination. 

apricot apiaries, touchy subject i'm sure, but are you seeing any rise in efb occurrences with the packaged colonies that you sell?

for those who haven't seen it yet and want to get up to speed on efb and how to deal with it, invest an hour and watch this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0B9o4GHq7U&feature=youtu.be

you'll learn just how serious efb is, and how far behind we are here in the u.s. when it comes to understanding and dealing with efb.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> this advice is outdated given recent findings of highly virulent strains of efb that may have resistance to antibiotics and for which destruction by fire is highly recommended.
> 
> the strain that affected my yards this spring spread very quickly and took down 2/3rds of my colonies despite excellent weather and very strong pollen/nectar flows. the economic toll on my little sideline operation is in the many thousands of dollars.
> 
> ...


Lets not forget that the following was also part of the presentation:"* Nobody is at fault for having EFB;*"


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

is that what it took to get you out of the woodwork clyde? 

and i wholeheartedly agree with that quote!

but if one walks away from that presentation with anything less than dogged determination to turn the tide on this pathogen,

which includes not being afraid to talk about how and from where the bacteria is spread,

(one of the first slides in the video the was mapping out known occurrences along with genetic sequence type)

then one may as well have not wasted their time watching it.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

squarepeg said:


> this advice is outdated given recent findings of highly virulent strains of efb that may have resistance to antibiotics and for which destruction by fire is highly recommended.
> 
> the strain that affected my yards this spring spread very quickly and took down 2/3rds of my colonies despite excellent weather and very strong pollen/nectar flows. the economic toll on my little sideline operation is in the many thousands of dollars.
> 
> ...



As I've indicated in one of my posts in another thread, there's specific methods for delivering OTC that are not listed on the terra-pro package.

It could just be that the terra-pro is poorly consumed by the bees.

The instructions on the Terra-pro are misleading.

Powdered sugar + OTC sounds like the best option. If I recall, there was another poster on here who formulated her own mixture.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

username00101 said:


> It could just be that the terra-pro is poorly consumed by the bees.


in my case a couple of the colonies were slow to start consuming the terra-pro forumulaltion but in the end all colonies consumed the recommended dosage plus what was needed to extend the treatment for a full month.

in addition, several of the colonies were given a quart of 1:1 syrup with 200 mg of terramycin in addition to the terra pro formulation at the beginning of treatment, and all of that syrup was consumed quickly before much degradation could occur.

several colonies collapsed and/or were euthanized despite consuming at or slightly above the recommended dosage. i wrote some of these off as too far gone but there were some with 5+ deep frames of bees that should have responded if the treatment had been effective.

beyond my experience and again looking at the video linked above, there are certain identified sequence types of efb in the u.k. that no known treatment or intervention has been proven effective, and colonies/equipment diagnosed with these sequence types are mandatory destruction by burning.

switzerland takes it one step further and has mandatory destruction by burning anytime efb is discovered, similar to the way most jurisdictions handle afb.

'00101, i hope you thought better about your plan to move the unresponsive hive 1000' feet from the others. most likely the field force would have flown back to the other hives and entered them, thereby inadvertently causing more drift than you would have had to begin with.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> is that what it took to get you out of the woodwork clyde?
> 
> and i wholeheartedly agree with that quote!
> 
> ...


Pointing out something that was overlooked and the blame game has run it's course with me.

A better beekeeper than I once had as his tag line something to the effect of- 'Just because its new to you doesn't mean it is new.'
I feel that way about all this EFB hoopla, like it's a brand new issue (I guess not many pollinate blueberries), it reads ("dogged determination to turn the tide on this pathogen") like it's become the next bee-apocalypse.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

so what's new?

the prophylactic use of antibiotics became prohibited 2 years ago.

the bee 'fad' leading to exponential growth in demand for package bees vs. stagnant prices for wholesale honey means more movement of (exposed) package bees all over the country than ever before, and for the most part into the hands of inexperienced beginners.

newer strains of efb are evolving that are more virulent and resistant to treatment than the efb of our grandfathers.

the real game changer? discovering infection can linger in the equipment making destruction of comb necessary like with afb, especially since twice yearly antibiotic treatments to suppress infection (supposedly) are not allowed. it was this very real economic consideration that led to alabama enacting its 'comb law'.

bee-apocolypse? primarily if it affects you i guess. i've pretty much conceded that we are living in a 'new normal' and frankly don't see much happening to turn it around. i think i can manage with it here by having a better defensive strategy.

in another post i stated i was caught with my pants down and got bit, and i've take responsibilty for my short comings that led to the extent of my losses. hoopla to you just might be information enough to the help the next person avoid that.

what i am finding interesting is how more often than not the seriousness of efb is getting down-played by those selling bees. there's a big disconnect there from what i am hearing from the researchers i have been communicating with and what is presented in the video linked above.

jmho, but i think time will prove that efb is considerably under-reported in this country. this due to beginners not knowing what they have and more experienced beekeepers and suppliers keeping it to themselves, again jmho.

thanks for engaging clyde, and i mean that.


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## ApricotApiaries (Sep 21, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> this advice is outdated given recent findings of highly virulent strains of efb that may have resistance to antibiotics and for which destruction by fire is highly recommended.
> 
> the strain that affected my yards this spring spread very quickly and took down 2/3rds of my colonies despite excellent weather and very strong pollen/nectar flows. the economic toll on my little sideline operation is in the many thousands of dollars.
> 
> ...


I dont think this advice is outdated at all. Likewise, I don't think anyone is doing favors suggesting that colonies should be destroyed at the onset of EFB. That said, if the hive has crashed, it might not be worth saving. But if you have the resources to dump a couple pounds of bees and a new queen into a hive that is crashing, its pretty incredible what they can clean up. If you are worried about comb, shook swarms work really well, assuming you still have a decent population. 

YES, EFB has changed in recent history. YES, bees respond differently to EFB given to mite loads, virus... Still, my general feeling is that it is a springtime ailment resulting from any number of stress factors including but not limited to changes in nectar and pollen flow, weather, exponential growth, mites, pesticides, springtime,...

In my experience, requeening and feeding works pretty well. Not always, but the success rate is pretty high. My experience is that they DO typically pull out of it midsummer. Not always. My experience is that a hive with EFB one season might very well have stunning perfect brood the next year and years after that. 

As for my own nucs and packages, we try really hard to supply healthy bees with good strong queens. I don't sell a whole lot of either. I sold somewhere around 60 packages this season, and made about 30 for myself (really good way to draw comb). I have only seen the ones I kept myself and have been thrilled with the brood patterns. nucs also. That said, I see hives every year where the brood falls apart sometime in May. We do not use antibiotics. 

The only reason I responded so strongly to start with, is I have seen a lot of new beekeeper posts suggesting burning equipment at the onset of just about near anything. The bottom line is, beekeeping requires experienced eyes. It also requires a pool of resources. Find local mentors who can accurately asses the level of problem. The solution to a mild case may be different than a major case, those are going to be impossible to assess from pictures. What works in one area might not work in another. And more importantly, local community can help pool resources like healthy brood, bees, and queens to help neighbors fix problems.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

ApricotApiaries said:


> In my experience, requeening and feeding works pretty well. Not always, but the success rate is pretty high. My experience is that they DO typically pull out of it midsummer. Not always. My experience is that a hive with EFB one season might very well have stunning perfect brood the next year and years after that.
> 
> I have only seen the ones I kept myself and have been thrilled with the brood patterns. nucs also. That said, I see hives every year where the brood falls apart sometime in May.
> 
> ...


great points aa, and many thanks for taking the time to compose your thorough and thoughtful reply.

i'm guessing that the differences you mention from case to case may have something to do with the differences in strains of efb, something we don't have much of a handle on here in the u.s. at this time. 

also as you mentioned differences may be due to the presence or not of additional comorbidities such as mites/viruses and other environmental factors.

i like you the way you promote getting experienced beekeepers involved with the beginners. 

when it comes to diagnosing efb, are you sending samples off to beltsville, using the vita test kit, or relying on experienced observation?

are you noticing a lot of drift, i.e. when you find efb in your yards does it tend to show up in adjacent hives?

are you able to make up your packages and nucs exclusively from your own stock vs. bringing in bees from outside your operation?

thanks again for your sharing your experiences with the forum. nice job on your website by the way!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

ApricotApiaries said:


> You do NOT need to kill EFB infected colonies. Feed them and requeen them, do a mite sample. PMS and EFB can look pretty similar. Nutritional support goes a long way. A short brood break goes a long way.
> For southern oregon, Look up "Noah's Bees" he should have queens available, really nice guy.


since pms and efb can look pretty similar, do you run a lab for m. plutonius in addition to doing a mite sample?

can you estimate what percentage of the time requeening, providing nutritional support, and giving a short brood break leaves a colony efb free?

i remember a few contributors reporting success against efb using that same prescription a few years ago, but i can't recall their usernames.

it's been three times in as many weeks as i have heard exactly that prescription given, and in all 3 cases it came from someone in the bee selling business.

the problem is that most of the current information available doesn't support that, but rather supports the use of shook swarms, antibiotics, sterilizing the hive equipment and contents with radiation, and destruction by burning.

i didn't mean by be snarky toward aa, or any other bee suppliers in my comment above or any other comments i have made on this topic here on the forum.

indeed, it's an awkard situation for both the buyer and seller of a brand new colony and the first thing you know it tests positive for efb.

randy oliver commented on bee-l that he sells about 1000 nucs annually, and has a refund/exchange policy no questions asked if a newly sold colony turns up with efb.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

meganmarie said:


> I'm so sad. 5 hives. One is much weaker and the larvae look like this. Mite check was ok. I'm guessing EFB with the other recent posts and the pictures I've seen.





meganmarie said:


> I'm in southern Oregon. This is a new package of bees from northern California.


megan, just wondering if you got your test kit and/or had a chance to use it.

did you reach out to the supplier of the package, and if so their response?


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

squarepeg said:


> since pms and efb can look pretty similar, do you run a lab for m. plutonius in addition to doing a mite sample?
> 
> can you estimate what percentage of the time requeening, providing nutritional support, and giving a short brood break leaves a colony efb free?
> 
> ...


The commercial beek who sold me the infected nucs didn't even return my call.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

username00101 said:


> The commercial beek who sold me the infected nucs didn't even return my call.


are you surprised, what is the state of Penn. going to do?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

if found it interesting that username's state inspector instructed him/her to apply fall and spring preventative treatments, which is seemingly at odds with the vfd regulations now in force.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

wildbranch2007 said:


> are you surprised, what is the state of Penn. going to do?


I left a message asking for the seller's advice on how to treat the colonies. I didn't ask for an explanation, or a refund. Just asked for his advice. No call back. 

The inspector asked me if there was a receipt, or a bill of sale. Anyone here ever get a receipt for Nuc purchases ? I certainly did not.

I would have _preferred_ a partial refund, and I would have _preferred_ that the state inspects the seller's bees for signs of EFB.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

ApricotApiaries said:


> You do NOT need to kill EFB infected colonies. Feed them and requeen them, do a mite sample. PMS and EFB can look pretty similar. Nutritional support goes a long way. A short brood break goes a long way.





squarepeg said:


> this advice is outdated...





ApricotApiaries said:


> I dont think this advice is outdated at all.





squarepeg said:


> since pms and efb can look pretty similar, do you run a lab for m. plutonius in addition to doing a mite sample?


with all do respect to apricot apiaries, it appears that he/she doesn't have the time and/or desire to respond to the question of whether or not the colonies he/she turned around with requeening and feeding were positively identified with efb.

i am not claiming to be an expert on efb having only had this year's experience to draw from. that experience however has caused me to do a pretty exhaustive literature search, as well as communicate personally with folks at the bee lab in beltsville, with folks at our apiary protection unit here in alabama, and others more qualified on the subject than i am.

no where have i found requeening and feeding as a recommended way to remedy a hive with a confirmed diagnosis of efb. given the pathogenesis of this malady it really makes no sense that this would do much to rid the colony and the equipment of the bacteria.

i agree that no one should jump straight to destruction by fire every time there is sick brood in the hive. the first step anytime efb is suspected is to obtain confirmation with a field test or send samples to a lab so they can rule it in/out.

there are three accepted methods of treating efb: a course of oxytetracyline, shook swarming, and destruction. post #197 of this thread https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?354293-EFB-options/page5 shows that none of these three methods has been shown 100% effective at ridding an apiary from recurrence of efb.

the slides in that post were taken from this video presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0B9o4GHq7U&feature=youtu.be 

this is very highly recommended viewing for those who have not seen it already.

also from that video is this slide:









this study showed there is virtually a 100% chance that any colonies within 30' of a colony infected with efb will test positive for efb. so if one finds it in their yard, and if it happens to be an especially virulent strain of efb that can quickly migrate from hive to hive, messing around with unproven methods may not play out so well.

in switzerland, efb is reportable and dealt with by mandatory destruction by fire. if over half the colonies in an apiary are found infected the whole apiary is burned.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I don't see what requeening does... unless some bees are resistant to EFB? I don't know if that's the case. I do know I'm seeing it pop up more and more in old comb..... been doing cutouts lately and it's pretty surprising to see EFB so common in ones that are on comb that looks like chocolate, but it's one of those things when ur framing comb at 1am in the morning and it's much easier to see that stuff at night. Some colonies it doesn't seem to affect though, still see solid patterns. The one last night had a mix, 50/50 old comb and new comb. The brood in the new comb was probably 50% the infection rate I was seeing in the old comb.... perhaps rotating comb is a good thing afterall


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

JRG13 said:


> I don't see what requeening does... unless some bees are resistant to EFB?


fusion_power mentioned that some strains of bee demonstrated resistance to efb i believe by having some enzyme they produced that was added to brood food. dar, if you are following and happen to recall where you saw that i am interested, haven't been able to turn it up by searching yet.

even with a 'resistant' queen, the colony would be 3 weeks away from having new nurse bees. my colonies with efb were already quite dwindled even in that short of a time frame.

jrg, interesting that you are seeing efb common in your cut outs and also interesting about your observation with new/old comb.


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## meganmarie (Aug 26, 2016)

@squarepeg Thank you for the replies. Here's an update. I emailed the company I got my package from and sent them pictures. They said it looked like EFB, said their vet wouldn't write the vfd for the terramycin, and asked for my credit card for a new queen. Obviously I wont get from them again. Everyone is sold out of the test kits except for one guy on Ebay. I ordered some and when they never came he said he actually didn't have them. So I've sent a sample to the usda and waiting to hear back. My queen died and there are emergency cells right now. They are trying to stay alive but I doubt they'll make it. I'm just hoping it doesnt spread to the other hives. I did move the hive away and stopped sharing equipment. I've had a hard time finding a vet for the vfd but I just found someone who will write the rx once I hear back positive from the usda.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

what a nightmare megan. very sad to hear about it, but thanks for getting back us the update.

fingers and toes crossed it doesn't show up in your other hives, best of luck to you and your bees.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Could anyone here on Beesource help her out with a test kit? I have two, but they are both out of date. Don't know how that might affect the test results.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

meganmarie said:


> @squarepeg Thank you for the replies. Here's an update. I emailed the company I got my package from and sent them pictures. They said it looked like EFB, said their vet wouldn't write the vfd for the terramycin, and asked for my credit card for a new queen. Obviously I wont get from them again. Everyone is sold out of the test kits except for one guy on Ebay. I ordered some and when they never came he said he actually didn't have them. So I've sent a sample to the usda and waiting to hear back. My queen died and there are emergency cells right now. They are trying to stay alive but I doubt they'll make it. I'm just hoping it doesnt spread to the other hives. I did move the hive away and stopped sharing equipment. I've had a hard time finding a vet for the vfd but I just found someone who will write the rx once I hear back positive from the usda.


Emergency cells die from EFB. 

How many hives do you have, and how many are affected by EFB?

Meg, are you able to find a vet?

Call mann-lake, get them to send you a copy of their veterinarian's directive form. 

That form needs to be completed by a vet.


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