# requirements for moving bees into florida



## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

http://www.freshfromflorida.com/Div...Plant-and-Apiary-Inspection/Apiary-Inspection

If you start here I think you can find most of the answers you need within a click or two.
There is contact info there as well.

Florida is overrated. Lots of snakes, SHB and varroa populations growing all year. Bring lots of money for syrup, bear fencing and treated pallets termites are hard on equipment. (Except in agricultural areas the year round spraying keeps them down)!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

scokat said:


> Does anyone have any info on requirements or the process for moving hives into florida for the winter. I searched but couldnt find anything. I figured a inspection from your home state. any other info?
> 
> scott


Call NYS Apiculturalist Paul Cappy in Albany.

Do you have an apiary picked out?


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## Great Bees (Aug 19, 2013)

I know that I would not go down there, bees and queens from the southern states have never been any good for me or anyone that I know. Keep north of the Arkansas to Arizona.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Mbeck-


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## matt1954 (Sep 8, 2010)

This is my second year doing it. I get inspected here in Virginia, then when I arrive in Florida, usually within a few days. I had to inform them that I was coming in advance. Contact Dave Westervelt <[email protected]> and he can then provide you with additional information. You will get an authorization to bring your bees into the state. You must stop at the border Ag Inspection point with all your paperwork. Have not had anyone at the Ag inspection station come out and look at the boxes. First thing they ask is "are these live bees" then after a few minutes of looking at the paperwork they waive you through. Both times I hit the Ag inspection station at about 1:00 a.m. When I depart Florida, I have to advise the State six weeks prior so they can set a date to inspect the bees. Some inspectors are very thorough, some are not. We will send some colonies and Nucs to the citrus groves in later January to build up and leave Florida in late April. 

It seems to me that several states blame Florida for their bee problems, but I cant say thus far that I agree with that assessment.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

matt1954 said:


> It seems to me that several states blame Florida for their bee problems, but I cant say thus far that I agree with that assessment.


Well, it is a rather absurd situation. There are oodles of feral bees in Florida...very few are agressive (some are), and they thrive.

But...

Some of the biggest breeders, in order to avoid the appearance of breeding AHB, bring in stock (for both queen and drones) from out of state...stock that does not do as well on its own as the ferals in Florida.

It's like farmers eating Mcdonalds.

deknow


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Can you define
oodles?
feral?
thrive?



Who are these breeders that bring in stock to avoid AHB breeding? I thought different stock was brought in to produce queens that where in demand and adressed the needs of beekeepers that bought from them ,stock that meets the demands of beekeepers better than "ferals".
I don't think the primary goal of breeders is to produce oodles of feral stock that thrives in water meters.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Mbeck said:


> Can you define
> oodles?


Errr, enough to keep a constantly growing population that is constantly moving into any available cavity. Walls, under trailers, water meter boxes, telephone pedestals, roofs, hollow branches, bird houses.


> feral?


No one is managing them and they are not simply 1st generation escapees from managed bees.


> thrive?


How many bee removals do you think are done in Florida each year? I've spent some time doing removals with Keith Councel...I've seen 5 5gallon buckets of honey comb (not brood) come under a single trailer...with rusty cans of raid outside the colony. I'm sure there are some numbers somewhere, but I'm sure there are tens of thousands of removals every year in some parts of Florida.



> Who are these breeders that bring in stock to avoid AHB breeding?


We were invited to speak at the Florida State Beekeepers meeting a few years ago...one of the presentations that I was interested to here was from the Miksa operation (I think it was Ted....a young man in his 20's I think). This is a family member of a multigenerational family queenrearing operation, not an outsider that isn't privy to what is going on.
I was shocked when he said (this was in a public presentation...if he had told me this in private, I wouldn't post it here) that although they were still maintaining some of their own lines, they were not selling them. All the queens they were selling were from breeder queens mated with breeder drone stock...all from outside Florida. This is not "breeding"...they are bringing in new breeder stock every year in order to avoid even the possibiltiy of the appearance of AHB...not building and refining anything.
Now, can you name a breeder in Florida on the scale of the Miksa operation that is breeding from stock that has been proven and refined in Florida? I'm sure there are some commercial beekeepers who raise their own queens, but for sale? ...to other states?



> I thought different stock was brought in to produce queens that where in demand and adressed the needs of beekeepers that bought from them ,stock that meets the demands of beekeepers better than "ferals".


No, the stock is brought in very specifically to avoid the appearance of propogating AHB.
The last time I was in Florida (August 2012) was specifically to talk to beekeepers about raising their own queens. The process is considered taboo by so many (and certainly by the powers that be in the AG dept), and no one that _is_ propagating their own queens in Florida is anxious to advertise that fact to the AG dept.



> I don't think the primary goal of breeders is to produce oodles of feral stock that thrives in water meters.


Of course it isn't. ...but someone bringing in new queen and drone stock every season is not really breeding. Propagating a single generation from purchased outside stock is not a breeding program, it is straight up production.
But those ferals are obviously "fit" for their environment, and obviously posses useful traits (whatever they may be)....the kind of basis for a breeding program that beekeepers are always looking for....unless they are told they must requeen all captured swarms and removals, should requeen with certified stock twice a year, etc.

deknow


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Constantly growing population of bees that are " simply not first generation escapees "? Tens of thousands of removals in some parts? Having first hand experience removing/collecting hives or swarms isn't evidence of a thriving feral population even if one of them was nice one. 

Florida beekeepers feel that raising your own queens here is a taboo subject? That hasn't been my experience though I may not talk to as many Florida beekeepers as you. The state AG discourages beekeepers from raising their own queens? That's not true, I would go as far as to say they recommend it. Give them a call. You also misrepresent BMP's that are suggested.

I won't comment on how Miksa runs his operation his youngest son didn't explain it to me. Those that are interested will just have to give him a call. I'm not sure what you would call "his line" but I think others may find he has bees that meet that definition. He imports his drone line? Some of it? Sure. I think his neighbors run few dozen yards maybe his yards.


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

Amount of ignorance and paranoia regarding AHB on this site among supposedly "educated" and "seasoned" beeks that are "speakers" is amazing. Florida bees and queens are cast under a light of skepticism while breeders in places such as Texas and Arizona are sought out with known/admitted African lines. :scratch: 

BTW: The advice from the latest Florida apiary inspector to visit me and my bees...GROW YOUR OWN QUEENS if you can.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

NatureCoast,
Did your inspector demand you re-queen or suggest methods and policies to promote healthy stock as well as continuing to be a responsible beekeeper? . Do you see 10's of thousands of swarms in your area? How about your stock do you bring new stuff in every year or buy it from a beekeeper here?

I've got stock from different places including Florida and I allow my queens to open mate.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Nature Coast beek said:


> Amount of ignorance and paranoia regarding AHB on this site among supposedly "educated" and "seasoned" beeks that are "speakers" is amazing.
> 
> 
> > Anything specific you disagree w/ and have alternate knowledge about which you would like toe share w/ us "ignernt folk"?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I imported 100+ nucs from FL in 2012 and 200 this year. Not one has expressed Africanized behavior. All were open mated from cells in central FL. I personally believe the issue is way overblown.


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## Sadler91 (Nov 6, 2011)

Queens mated in Florida tend to give you a more aggressive hive. I buy some mated queens from California every year and they are generally more passive than the Florida stock. I think we are drowning the african bee population here with stock from all over. Just my .02


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## Beetrucker74 (Oct 10, 2010)

I have to say FBF mates about 15,000 queens a year in central Florida and have no issue with African traits and our bees are calmer than most I have moved or worked for others over the years.
The farther south you go the more you have to watch out for the African drones mating with your queen. If at all possible you should try to saturate your mating area with enough drones of your choosing to vastly out number drones with unwanted traits. Which is the way we have were ever we are mating.
As for moving in or out of the state, it is easy once you get started just call your areas inspector and work out a time for them to come inspect and issue your permit to leave and re-enter the state and it is good for a year.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

There actually is a great deal of AHB fear in Florida:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/in874


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

It's certainly not responsible to site a plan to deal with the increased potential for risk that some areas may have as evidence of "a great deal of fear". 

Maybe you can find the news story where two park rangers were stung 50 times each after disrupting a hive with a front loader. The story suggested those bees where probably AHB. No, testing just a guess. That would be evidence 

No doubt that AHB is on a long list of things Florida beekeepers have to be aware of as they manage their hives. I've seen no evidence to suggest that it's very high on the list of real problems encountered by responsible beekeepers or that difficult to exclude when encountered.
I may be wrong?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Mbeck - Your sentiments sound quite similar to the German beekeepers of Argentina when asked about AHB.

Crazy Roland


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Are you saying they deny an AHB problem that is widespread in Argentina ?

I'm german but not as hard as most and I've no idea the extent of AHB in Argentina.

I just question some of the statements made here. I don't have a lot of experience and I hope I people don't think I'm presenting myself as more knowledgeable then I am. 

In my general area of Florida 10's of thousands of hives are brought in from out of state. Are those beekeepers bringing in northern stock or leaving with southern stock.

Lots of hives from Mass and Wis thousands and thousands!


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Mbeck said:


> It's certainly not responsible to site a plan to deal with the increased potential for risk that some areas may have as evidence of "a great deal of fear".


To me, the not-very-sub rosa thrust of the plan is that Florida beekeepers are beset on all sides by AHB genetics.



> 3. Honey bee colony divisions or splits should be queened with production queens or queen cells from European honey bee breeder queens following Florida's Best Management Practices.





> 4. Florida beekeepers are discouraged from collecting swarms that cannot be immediately re-queened from European honey bee queen producers.





> 8. Recommend re-queening with European stock every six months unless using marked or clipped queens and having in possession a bill of sale from an European honey bee queen producer.





> 9. Immediately re-queen with a European queen if previously installed clipped or marked queen is found missing.


I don't know how else to interpret a best practices plan that focuses almost exclusively on the danger of AHB genetics. None of the material is concerned with any other problem Florida beekeepers might face-- nothing about AFB, for example, or any other disease or pest.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Okay I give up. I don't see the great deal of fear but real or perceived BMP are suggested as a way to protect and promote Florida's beekeeping interest.
I'm unaware of any beekeeper that has a persistent issue with AHB. I've only heard of an occasional issue with hotter managed hives nothing that a pinch didn't fix. Yes bees test positive for AHB here. I'm sure we have some feral hives but my guess is that those in green swamp are diluted with known stock!


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Mbeck said:


> Okay I give up. I don't see the great deal of fear but real or perceived BMP are suggested as a way to protect and promote Florida's beekeeping interest.
> I'm unaware of any beekeeper that has a persistent issue with AHB. I've only heard of an occasional issue with hotter managed hives nothing that a pinch didn't fix. Yes bees test positive for AHB here. I'm sure we have some feral hives but my guess is that those in green swamp are diluted with known stock!


I agree that it's not a real problem, but it certainly seems to be perceived as a problem by the Powers That Be.

Or, the more cynical explanation is that it's a result of lobbying by queen breeders. If beekeepers aren't allowed to requeen their hives from their own stock without constant testing, that means money in certain pockets.

It disturbs me because it tries to close all the doors to developing locally adapted bees.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I agree with the following:

I've seen no evidence to suggest that it's very high on the list of real problems encountered by responsible beekeepers or that difficult to exclude when encountered.

To the best of my knowledge/memory, the AHB moved north and south after being released. Going north, it encountered untrained tribesmen that responded by burning them. When they spread south into Argentina, the well trained beekeepers, many of them German, adapted to them and put them to work. I am sure they pinched alot of queens, but in the end, learned how to deal with the new genes.

Clear now?

Crazy Roland


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Crystal!

I generally think my bees are very gentle but I've not worked with very many other hives. 
( a few from WI and they where fine!)
I've had my stock tested and actively promote drone rearing in and around the yard I mate in.

I think a the feral population is very low around most of my yards if it exist at all. I have no proof. The is one yard that is an exception but that is a different story.


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## Beetrucker74 (Oct 10, 2010)

Mbeck said:


> Okay I give up. I don't see the great deal of fear but real or perceived BMP are suggested as a way to protect and promote Florida's beekeeping interest.
> I'm unaware of any beekeeper that has a persistent issue with AHB. I've only heard of an occasional issue with hotter managed hives nothing that a pinch didn't fix. Yes bees test positive for AHB here. I'm sure we have some feral hives but my guess is that those in green swamp are diluted with known stock!


I know for a fact if you are mating near the Greenswamp or Richloam you have no fear of African stock. We are mating thousands of nucs there now and do so twice a year. So that area is completely saturated with good drones.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

The following thesis paper suggests that they're getting false positives (type 1 errors) for AHB in Florida with the tests they're using:

http://udspace.udel.edu/bitstream/handle/19716/12667/Katherine_Darger_thesis.pdf?sequence=1

"With morphometrics, mitochondrial DNA, and nuclear DNA tested with the use of microsatellites we found that the known Africanized bees collected by the Florida Department of Agriculture did not exhibit Africanization other than in the preliminary, morphometric test performed by the Department of Agriculture."

"Our data shows that the Africanized bees from Florida/Alabama/Georgia were
morphometrically Africanized only using USDA-ID not the GWV technique, and not
necessarily genetically similar enough to the African bee to be considered an
Africanized bee."


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## my2cents (Jul 9, 2015)

I have some hives that are gentle, I have some from making splits, from the same hives that are a little more aggressive.
I know 3 commercial beeks, one raises his own line on the Pyane's Priairie, and ships 100s of them north.
Like wise, I know Beeks that buy and requeen their hives every year. And then some that make splits and place new queens in them. And out of the 1500 or so hives in each apiary I have been to and worked with some hives are more or less aggressive than the next.
Saying that, I believe that the AHB's genetics are already imbedded into the gene pool. Like a dog, you never know what gene will be dominate in any offspring.
I think the AHB issue is over emphasized and is really of little concern. If you research you will find the AHBs can not survive the northern states. An as we all are aware, the bees concern is survival. And therefore, cross breading may have already occurred. Especially when you have no control of the mating when your unmated queen leaves on her mating flight.
My2Cents


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

You may think that AHB genetics in the gene pool is inconsequential, but what about us northerners that do not migrate and try to overwinter a purchased queen? I've seen mean package bees die at the first frost.

Crazy Roland


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