# Sideliner Honey House/Equipment



## Buzz85

Hey All,

I've searched for threads related to honey house setups but haven't found much on 100-500 hives info.

I'm a sideliner in Southern Ontario, Canada and I'm looking at production hive numbers around 150 for 2018. I have a small extraction setup right now and I'm wondering if I can get away with what I have or what you folks might add for equipment if it were your setup. Does anyone have between 150-300 honey production hives that could chime in? I am growing to 350 hives over the next few years and re-assessing at that point. I've got a little budget $ to play with but I'm of the "lean startup" mentality and want to maximize the equipment that I have as well as the space (lots of storage but NOT lots of extracting space as of now).

Current Equipment:
Old commercial freezer re-purposed to super incubator. Holds 4 Med/1 Deep.
Maxant 30fr Uncapping tank - currently all uncapping is done by hot knife and I'm quite comfortable and quick with one since 8 years old 
Dadant 20fr Radial extractor (is this going to be able to _reasonably_ process 150+ hives worth of honey without taking me until Christmas time...?!
I have a Maxant single in-line honey basket filter currently not being used.
36" Dadant Clarifier - This hasn't been a bottle neck so far but I don't know if it will be with the added load
Currently bottling is done by plastic gate and bucket. I store all honey in 5gal buckets until needed throughout the year. Is this feasible on a larger scale, or am I looking at transitioning to drums?
Solar Wax melter and crock pots used for wax processing to blocks.

I expect I'm at LEAST looking at a honey pump and 200-500lb bottling tank. I don't think a Silver Queen uncapper or an extraction line is in the budget for this year, though that sure would be nice! This would be a route I'm looking at going in the near future though. Wax processing is SLOW, but is not my main product offering. I'm going to try to set up a proper hot room.

Oh, and I don't have an easy way to move drums...no forklift etc. Also, I sell 95% retail and will be next year, no bulk.


Thanks in advance for your input.

James


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## My-smokepole

Running about 50-75 hives. I made major changes this last year. And sorry that I didn't do it sooner. Current set up is Maxant uncapper with senior waxspinner under it. Plumbed with A Danant 20/30 frame extractor. To a clarifier honey then a honey pumping to a settling tank. Witch is to small. In between spinner and extractor there is a uncapping tank. More for drips and Storage of uncap frames. Most of the fitting are Quick connects. I don't handle a bucket till it is filled and going to storage. Had just a couple small honey spills. Witch I don't miss. One when I was figuring out the pump and a second one when half of a quick Connect got undone. All ithis in about a 12 x10 work space. Normally I would have three stacks of honey Super to do more than that and I am out of space. Keep your eyes open you can find most of this stuff used. You may have to do some driving to get it.


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## Specialkayme

Beekeeping is very local, and honey production is no different. When you say "I'm looking at production hive numbers around 150 for 2018" how much honey are you projecting?

Some hives, in some parts of the continent, produce 150 lbs of surplus honey on average. My state's average is 35 lbs. 150 hives could give you a range of 5,200-22,500. That's a very big range. Equipment suggestions for 5k lbs of honey a year would be different than 22k lbs of honey a year.


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## Buzz85

Good point SpecialK ... Let's assume 15,000-20,000lbs for the purposes of this thread.


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## Buzz85

Smokepole, thanks for the reply - that's exactly the kind of info I'm curious about.


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## Specialkayme

In my experience, you need a bottling tank. Size is up to you, and how quickly you sell. I think you could get away with a 15 gallon bottling tank, but a 25 gallon would probably be better. I use my bottling tank as a settling tank as well. Fill it up, let it sit for 2-3 days, bottle about half (max), and repeat. At the end of the season you'll see alot of wax bits on the sides of the tank that the basic filters didn't get. 

You can operate in buckets for storage, but space may be an issue. Assuming you extract all at once, you're talking roughly 1,500 separate 5 gallon buckets. If you have the space for it (not only to keep it all in buckets, but to store the buckets afterwords), go for it. If not, you may need to reevaluate. 

Aside from those two issues, it's possible to do what you need to with what you have. Not ideal, but possible. If you assume you're getting 35 lbs out of a super, 20,000 lbs would make about 550 supers. Assuming 9 frames a box, 100% filled, makes almost 5,000 frames to extract. 20 frames per "trip" on the extractor, 20 minutes per "trip" makes for a little over 80 hours running on the extractor. So two weeks worth of work straight (or broken up into 10 eight hour days, if you work Saturdays). 

The question then becomes what's your limiting factor? Can you uncap 20 frames in 20 minutes? If not, uncapping is slowing you down and you need to pick that part up. If so, extracting is slowing you down and you need to pick that up (with perhaps a 60 frame extractor). If 80 hours to extract is fine with you, keep the equipment. If you want to do it in 40 hours, you need to figure out what will speed that up.

I don't know many that operate 150-300 hives with those per hive averages that work a heated knife and a 20 frame extractor. At least not for very long. Most upgrade to a chain uncapper and a 60-120 frame extractor, along with a clarifier with pump and a cappings spinner. Not that you need any of those things, but when you hit those number of hives, there's always something to do instead of extracting (either with your hives, your 9-5 job, or your family) so time is of the essence.


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## My-smokepole

The biggest challenge that I have found. Is having to blindly learn what works. And the poor information and drawings of equipment. You can spend thousands of $$$ and get nothing in paper work on it. As a example. When I buy a drill I get more information than I need, but I mite get a clue on some info that I need.


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## Branman

Great thread, I'm at about 25 hives now and want to expand to about 100 by 2019. Hopefully I can get a handle on what I need. Uncapper and extractor I totally get, but the pumps and tanks and clarifiers confuse me.


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## Buzz85

SpecialK I think you've hit the nail on the head with that entire response!

I definitely agree with your last paragraph - I don't forsee using this setup much past 2018, I can see going with a Cowan 28 or 60fr line with spinner etc, but I think taking the longer 80+ hrs with what I've got for next season will work in the short term.

Thanks for the response!


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## Specialkayme

Branman said:


> Uncapper and extractor I totally get, but the pumps and tanks and clarifiers confuse me.


My best advice - if you don't know what it is, you probably don't need it. That's not to sound offensive or rude, just that sales tactics and gimmicks sometimes get ahead of common sense. If it's working, you don't need more. If it isn't, that's when you need to investigate alternatives.

Profit margins on beekeeping, especially honey production, aren't very large. You don't get excess cash flow to spend on shinny new toys. So unless you need it (or you want to drop extra cash) it would probably be better off not worrying about it.

That having been said, on the very light end of the spectrum you need three things:
An extractor (2-6 frame, hand or electric depending on ability), a knife (or cappings scratcher) and a rubbermaid tub. 
That right there should get most people through a couple hundred pounds a year. 

Once you've acquired those items, there are a few other things that help considerably:
A heated knife (or planer), an uncapping tank, and a bottling tank.
That should get most people through a few thousand, to a few ten's of thousands of pounds a year (along with probably a bigger extractor).

Then come your "bells and whistles", all of which improve eficiency and decrease work time, which comes in handy with most operations, but you usually don't see the payoff until you hit the tens of thousands of pounds a year mark, depending on your personal time allotment and physical capabilities:
Chain uncapper, cappings spinner, wax melter, clarifier, pump, filter

In an ideal situation, you have a chain uncapper, a cappings spinner, and an extractor that all feed into one (or several) clarifiers. The clarifier gets pumped through a filter and into either large vats for gravity clarifying, or drums/buckets/bottling tanks. 

Maxant has a good diagram on some of the mid to small end setups:
http://www.maxantindustries.com/pdfs/packages.pdf



Buzz85 said:


> I don't forsee using this setup much past 2018, I can see going with a Cowan 28 or 60fr line with spinner etc, but I think taking the longer 80+ hrs with what I've got for next season will work in the short term.


I'm a cheap guy myself. I'd work with the 80+ hour assignments until it becomes a bit much. But that's me.


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## Scott Gough

Specialkayme said:


> I'm a cheap guy myself. I'd work with the 80+ hour assignments until it becomes a bit much. But that's me.


SpecialK, Thanks for the insight and the link to the Maxant page. Some would call me cheap also but I think it is just being wise with my money. It is all a time and money issue. Is the investment in the equipment going to buy enough time to make it worth it?


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## ApricotApiaries

As was stated earlier. Yields vary immensely across the continent. A better way to think about it is how many super or total volume expected. So with what you said, 15,000 to 22,000lbs....

We have about 300 colonies right now and average about 30-50lbs. My target is 500-600 colonies which I will probably reach next year. We have started essentially from ground up. What I have right now for a setup is a"what can I get by with without spending much money." My intent is to reach target scale, deal with it for a couple years and build a proper shop. 

So right now I have a 20ft cargo container. A 40footer would be a lot more comfortable, but the 20footer works. I have space in the container for 60+ supers. Any more sit on a pallet under a net or on the truck under a net until I am ready. This would not work somewhere with hive-beetles. I have a maxant uncapping plane and a stainless uncapping tank which holds uncapped frames ready to extract. An old Maxant 500 series 10 frame extractor, and a single walled baffled clarifier. After which I have a 600# tank and a 300#tank. These are on stands with no-drip valves for bottling. It is not much, but I have known plenty of folks who have used less. 

The biggest holdup for me is handling cappings. My biggest priority is a spinner for cappings. I would probably rig a simple hotknife over it for cappings to drops straight in. My mentor used to extract 1500 colonies like this, it is a totally viable setup and would be a lot cheaper and less prone to breakage than a machine uncapper (and not that much slower). My next biggest issue is heat. This setup works great in the summer time, but in the fall when I am finishing up, I jury rig combinations of space heaters and blankets under/around my clarifier and bottling tanks to get things flowable. 

Again, I can tolerate this current set up because it absolutely is temporary. My intent is build a shop in the next few years and put in a cowen 28 line. The only thing to consider with a cowen line, is it is a line. Much less flexibility in the shape and building dimensions than upright radial extractors. But those cowen lines are slicker than snot.


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## Specialkayme

ApricotApiaries said:


> But those cowen lines are slicker than snot.


At $75k I'd hope so 

Good equipment, don't get me wrong, but it takes a SH*T ton of honey to pay for that system.


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## ApricotApiaries

http://www.cowenmfg.com/28-frame-extractor-system-price-list/

according to Cowen's web page price list, the 28 line is $27k. That's a lot less than $75k. and if we are talking about 15,000lbs of honey. That doesn't even take one years crop to pay for.


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## Specialkayme

I was referring to the 60:
http://www.cowenmfg.com/air-ram-60-system-cowen-spinner/



ApricotApiaries said:


> That doesn't even take one years crop to pay for.


Really? What are you selling your honey for?

Most of my hives (with queen replacement, equipment replacement, mileage, treatments, ect.) have a yearly carrying cost of about $150 per hive. Which is consistent with most beekeepers Dewey has surveyed (some were much higher). So with 300 hives, that gives you a yearly expense of $45,000 to keep the wheels moving. 

Now, lets say you get 50 lbs of honey per hive. That's 15,000 lbs. At wholesale prices ($2.00 /lb) you've made . . . . $30,000. And you lost money (not counting pollination or nuc sales). If you sell at retail, and NET $5 /lb (after bottle costs, transportation, advertising, tax, and transaction fees, which is going to be tough), you're looking at $75,000, which less your year's expenses comes to $30,000. So yes, you can afford that $27k extracting line, but it only meant you worked for free this year . . . 

Now if you add the labor it took you to get that 15,000 lbs, and added that to the bottom line . . . .


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## PerryBee

100 hives:

Kelly vibrating jiggle knife into a 4' Maxant wax melting tank, and then into a Maxant Jr. spinner.
20 frame Dadant extractor (can hold 36 frames if pushed).
36" Dadant clarifier.
Jones gear pump.
600 lb water jacketed dairy tank.
In-line filter.
Maxant 300lb. (25 gallon) bottling tank. (this is the the only NEW piece of equipment I have purchased).

*Gear up a pump, the biggest improvement in my life was ending the bucket brigade, nothing made it any easier for the cost.*

All of this is housed and operated in a 12 x 60 wide open office trailer with a bathroom, triple S/S sink, etc.
I can easily do 100 hives and if I was going to expand at all, I would add is a second 20 frame extractor. While a Cowan line is top of the class, there is something to be said for "plain" or "basic" equipment. With 2 rotary extractors if something goes wrong you can still keep running and the repairs are not likely to hold you up long or be all that expensive.


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## westtnbeekeeper

I like this thread...

Been studying honey house lay outs for a few months. What I need or what may be overkill for a hopeful side liner... 50 to 100 colonies. Probably not even a side liner by most folks standards but I believe that would be pushing the limit for a second job for me.


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## ApricotApiaries

Specialkayme said:


> I was referring to the 60:
> http://www.cowenmfg.com/air-ram-60-system-cowen-spinner/
> 
> 
> 
> Really? What are you selling your honey for?
> 
> Most of my hives (with queen replacement, equipment replacement, mileage, treatments, ect.) have a yearly carrying cost of about $150 per hive. Which is consistent with most beekeepers Dewey has surveyed (some were much higher). So with 300 hives, that gives you a yearly expense of $45,000 to keep the wheels moving.
> 
> Now, lets say you get 50 lbs of honey per hive. That's 15,000 lbs. At wholesale prices ($2.00 /lb) you've made . . . . $30,000. And you lost money (not counting pollination or nuc sales). If you sell at retail, and NET $5 /lb (after bottle costs, transportation, advertising, tax, and transaction fees, which is going to be tough), you're looking at $75,000, which less your year's expenses comes to $30,000. So yes, you can afford that $27k extracting line, but it only meant you worked for free this year . . .
> 
> Now if you add the labor it took you to get that 15,000 lbs, and added that to the bottom line . . . .


Sorry SpecialKayme, I think we model our business different from you I guess. Nucs, queens, and pollination more or less covers our operating costs. Granted these ventures have their own associated costs.


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## [email protected]

We have been running about 200 hives, near Albany NY. You have had some great replies and I hope ours can also help. Of those received so far, PerryBee comes closest to our operation. If possible, I urge you to visit them as 'the devil is in the details', and they have obviously worked out most. (I wish I were close enough to visit.)
I'll start with the knives...They use a Kelley Vibrating Knife. A great choice, but pricey at $650. See if you can get one used or, better yet, a Cowen Sideliner setup. No longer sold it was less than $2,000 when new and will uncap as fast as you can load at. (Kelley made the knives used in the Sideliner.) However, I know a guy who uses a cold knife to uncap more than 10,000 frames a year and that is hard to beat!
You want an uncapping tank that can hold at least 20 frames, so you can uncap while the extractor is running. A 20 frame extractor is plenty for up to 500 supers.
PerryBee uses a Maxant Jr. spinner. Very expensive and hard to operate. Don't get one until you have seen someone running one. The difficulty is cleaning the wax off of the screen. I've never found a worthwhile spinner for my small operation, but would love to. Instead I use a clarifer. I formerly had a 36" Dadant, but that caused a bottleneck and I changed to a six foot Maxant, which is great. Set yourself up so that the honey/wax from the extractor goes directly to the clarifer. I use gravity by literally putting the clarifier under the extractor. 
I pump from the clarifier to a barrel using a Kelley pump (PerryBee apparently uses a Jones pump). Beginning a few years ago I use a filter that fits on top of the barrel. https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=37439. At $12.50 each, these have revolutionized our operation by eliminating the need for filters. We then pump (using the same Kelley pump) from the barrell to our water-jacketed bottling tank. When we sold retail, we had three such tanks and a Dadant filler that we'd switch between tanks. Today we only sell in 5-gallon buckets so we only use one bottling tank. 
When using an uncapping tank and a clarifer you will face a challenge for draining the wax from the cappings. Again, a US Plastic filter came to our rescue. https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=37445. For $5 each you can't go wrong. They can be rinsed and last for several years. Late every afternoon we put one on top of a five-gallon bucket and fill it with cappings. In the morning the cappings are drained and drained cappings are put into other buckets. It takes about five filters to fill one bucket with drained cappings. 
Drained cappings go into a Maxant Wax Melter and the melted wax goes through another reusable US Plastic filter https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=37444. For $5 each you can't go wrong, and you get beautiful candle-quality beeswax!

Hope this helps.

Lloyd


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## AstroBee

Lloyd,

Thanks for posting! That's gold for us sideliners.


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## Specialkayme

ApricotApiaries said:


> Nucs, queens, and pollination more or less covers our operating costs. Granted these ventures have their own associated costs.


That makes a difference.

My own projections, and experience, shows me that honey production alone may produce enough income to cover your expenses, and possibly put some cash in your pocket for your time, but won't throw off enough excess cash flow to pay for a whole line of equipment in a year. Alternative income streams (nucs/pollination) changes things though.

I've never done much of either. I don't have the time to do pollination, and I've always needed to use my own nucs to replace losses and "experiments." Although hopefully both change in the next few years. 



[email protected] said:


> They use a Kelley Vibrating Knife. A great choice, but pricey at $650.


Great advice. Thanks Lloyd.

The Kelley Vibrating Knife may not be cheap, but it's leagues below the other uncapping options, like the sideliner uncapper at $1,600 (https://www.mannlakeltd.com/shop-al...honey-extraction/uncapping/sideliner-uncapper or http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/The-Sideliner-Uncapper), a chain uncapper at $2,600 (https://www.mannlakeltd.com/shop-al...extraction/uncapping/motorized-chain-uncapper or http://www.maxantindustries.com/uncapping.html) or a silver queen at $6,000.

I absolutely hate uncapping. I don't know what it is, but I despise it. But I'm too cheep to buy anything other than a heated knife


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## grozzie2

Specialkayme said:


> My own projections, and experience, shows me that honey production alone may produce enough income to cover your expenses, and possibly put some cash in your pocket for your time, but won't throw off enough excess cash flow to pay for a whole line of equipment in a year.


I dont know of any other line of business that comes with the expectation of paying for the capital equipment in one year, dont see why beekeeping should be any different. Over a reasonable amortization schedule, honey production will pay for an extracting line, it's just unrealistic to expect that to happen in one year. particularily for an operation that is 'growing into' the scale of the line you are purchasing. Amortize your extracting line over 5 years, then the beekeeping endeavor needs to come up with 20% of it's cost, plus any associated carrying charges if you have them. The books look pretty good if you go about it that way.


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## ApricotApiaries

Is the Kelly wiggle knife really that much better/faster than a stationary hotknife?


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## PerryBee

I guess it depends on how good you are with the knife. I just find it easier.


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## ApricotApiaries

Of the Maxant spinners, is there a reason to go with the senior spinner as opposed to two junior spinners?


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## My-smokepole

Their chain uncapper will sit on top of a senior. For my set up I had to redrill the anchor points to swing it 90 degrees. The uncapper sits on a track. After reading the boards for about a year. And most people are sorry that they buy the junior. And up grade to the senior.


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## zhiv9

For up to 200 hives I used:

2xMaxant 20-frame
Old Cowen aluminum uncapper
Maxant clarifier
Settling tank (single wall wrapped in radiant pex)
1" pump
Maxant double filter
84 gallon bottling tank
Maxant spinner. Tried the junior, but ended up trading up to the senior
Maxant WPT wax melter

We could run up to 80 boxes in a day with 2 people

We use a Swienty barrel melter for liquifying barrels.

We tried initially to filter right from the clarifier, but found that unless everything was perfect it ended up backing up regularly. Settling first saved a lot of issues.


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## zhiv9

ApricotApiaries said:


> Of the Maxant spinners, is there a reason to go with the senior spinner as opposed to two junior spinners?


When they say for "up to 100 hives" for the junior they aren't kidding. Even the senior can be a pain. Warm cappings added evenly and a warm honey house help a lot.


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## odfrank

150 Hives? Extracting room built 1979

1970's? Dadant 20 frame extractor
Backup - 1970's Maxant 20 frame extractor
Backup - 1970's Dadant galvanized 4 frame handcrank 
1950's Diamond Line Cappings spinner
1950's double screen filter box brand unknown
1950's Woodman? honey pump
Backup 1970's Kelley 1" pump
Backup 1970's Dadant heated waterfall strainer box
2 - 1970's Kelley 100g. tanks
2 - 1970's 25g. stainless tanks Dadant?
2 - more recent electric handheld uncapping knives
Older Cowan steam heated uncapper
Recently added: 15 g. Dadant bottling tank $150
Maxant bottling valve that cost more than the Dadant tank and one of the few things in the extracting room I bought new. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBTTxsenG-0

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCnrBs3d3oQ

[/URL]This years new toolracks:


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## PerryBee

I noticed odfrank has a lot of "backup" stuff mentioned.:thumbsup: Nothing brings things to a grinding halt like breakdown.


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## odfrank

I have a lot of backup equipment because the the late '70s and early '80s was a beekeeping fad era like 2006 to present. Back then and now many people got into beekeeping, in a big way, and got out just as fast. They bought thousands of dollars of equipment and just walked away from it, leaving it to a deserving soul like myself, or sold out for pennies on the dollars. Back then I built up a collection of extracting equipment, now I am swimming in woodenware, again for pennies on the dollar.


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## gww

Oddfrank


> They bought thousands of dollars of equipment and just walked away from it, leaving it to a deserving soul like myself, or sold out for pennies on the dollars. Back then I built up a collection of extracting equipment, now I am swimming in woodenware, again for pennies on the dollar.


I love the ideal of pennys on the dollar to a deserving soul. I used to tell my daughter that yes it only cost a dollar but if you have no use for it it still aint cheap and my wife that it does not make sense to spend 5 dollars on gas to save two dollars on something. However, every once in a while a person will come on to quality stuff that just last and last and last and are used and to me that is almost artistic. I am a very cheap person and look up to you mode of operation.
Cheers
gww


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## Adam Foster Collins

[email protected] said:


> We have been running about 200 hives, near Albany NY... PerryBee comes closest to our operation...I've never found a worthwhile spinner for my small operation, but would love to. Instead I use a clarifer. I formerly had a 36" Dadant...I use gravity by literally putting the clarifier under the extractor.
> I pump from the clarifier to a barrel using a Kelley pump (PerryBee apparently uses a Jones pump). Beginning a few years ago I use a filter that fits on top of the barrel. https://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=37439. At $12.50 each, these have revolutionized our operation by eliminating the need for filters. We then pump (using the same Kelley pump) from the barrell to our water-jacketed bottling tank. When we sold retail, we had three such tanks and a Dadant filler that we'd switch between tanks. ...
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Lloyd


An interesting post, Lloyd. I know Perry very well - and I bought your Dadant clarifier! Small world.

I'm interested in the filters you mention. I'm wondering how much room the filter takes up on top of your barrel. Does it sit down inside it much? Do you end up having to pull it off, dripping, and then top off the barrel? Or is it shallow enough to stay clear of the honey all the way to the top?

Thanks,

Adam


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## [email protected]

I'd say the barrel filter takes up 4"-6" of the barrel depth. 50-75 lbs. But that doesn't matter to us as we don't sell by the barrel. We pump from the barrel to a jacketed bottling tank. What we pump from the clarifier is as clean as most of the honey we used to buy by the barrel. We effectively use the clarifier as a sump, and then filter from there to the bottling tank.

For $12.50 you can't go wrong...and one filter will last at least three years! Try one and I think you will be converted.

Lloyd


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## Charlie B

gww said:


> Oddfrank
> 
> 
> I love the ideal of pennys on the dollar to a deserving soul. I used to tell my daughter that yes it only cost a dollar but if you have no use for it it still aint cheap and my wife that it does not make sense to spend 5 dollars on gas to save two dollars on something. However, every once in a while a person will come on to quality stuff that just last and last and last and are used and to me that is almost artistic. I am a very cheap person and look up to you mode of operation.
> Cheers
> gww


You have found your role model gww if you’re looking for someone to learn from on how to be cheap!:applause:


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## gww

Charlie


> You have found your role model gww if you’re looking for someone to learn from on how to be cheap!:applause:


Did you catch more swarms then frank this year? I did notice that you liked giving frank things and he liked taking them. He is a man after my own heart.
Cheers
gww


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## Charlie B

You would not believe the lavish gifts I have bestowed! Now he’s wanting me to track down 8 frame equipment for him from beekeepers who quit and get rid of their equipment for practically nothing. He’s an equipment predator. I’ve already been in contact with the Hoarder series on cable TV and they’re showing some interest.


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## gww

Charlie


> You would not believe the lavish gifts I have bestowed! Now he’s wanting me to track down 8 frame equipment for him from beekeepers who quit and get rid of their equipment for practically nothing. He’s an equipment predator. I’ve already been in contact with the Hoarder series on cable TV and they’re showing some interest.


:thumbsup:
Cheers
gww


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## odfrank

In my *47 years of experience *as a beekeeper, I have learned that as long as you are in expansion mode and trying to make maximum honey crops, you can not have enough boxes on hand. I have added several millionaire apiary construction and maintenance customers this year and need supers to put on their hives. I have also started queen rearing and need hives and bees for cell builders and mating nucs. I ran out of honey supers again this super and was embarrassed for myself when we pulled the crop and I saw what I had thrown on in the last few weeks. I even filled a super with this frame of HSC:


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## gww

Odfrank
I check craigs list about three or four times a year and never see much used equiptment around here. I am not really looking cause I am building everything but for enjoyment just check and nothing much is ever there and what is, they want new prices for. I did get an eight inch wood planer that works perfectly for $10 and so even a blind squirel will find an acorn every once in a while.
Cheers
gww


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## Specialkayme

You can use IFTTT.com to scour craigslist (it stands for "IF This Then That"). While the website can do alot more than that, you can set it up where you'll get an email whenever a posting is placed on craigslist based on your search terms. I have a few running for "extractor" and "swarm" in my area. But you could set it up for anything you want.

I've found craigslist falls under two categories: (1) good stuff at really low prices (i.e. great deals) that are gone SUPER FAST, and (2) not good deals that stick around forever. I tried checking craigslist once a week, but the good stuff was gone by the time I found it. With IFTTT.com I can get an email within an hour of it being posted, and can move really quick.

That being said, there isn't anything local that is offered on craigslist that I would consider a great deal. Maybe once every few years.


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## gww

Specialk....
Your experiance with craigs list reflects mine. I have bought very few things off of craigslist and had to search hard for them to end up mostly with just a fair deal. I gave four roosters away and got a responce very fast which surprized me cause I would let anyone give me roosters. 
Nice tip on searching. Did you ever get a swarm using your searching tip?
Thanks
gww


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## Specialkayme

gww said:


> Did you ever get a swarm using your searching tip?


No. I haven't seen anyone post an add for a swarm they _have_. Although plenty of posts for people willing to come get swarms. Don't know how successful they are (I assume not very). 

I have found outyards successfully through craigslist though.


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## gww

specialk...


> I have found outyards successfully through craigslist though


Cool, every little bit helps.
Cheers
gww


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## JackandPam'sPlace

Hi Buzz85,
I wish I had seen this ages ago but couldn't help but notice the Maxant single in line filter I assume is or was the 200-1 model. Did you ever use it or still on the shelf? I would be interested in it if you did. Jack


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## Litsinger

I was recently awarded an apicultural grant to invest in honey house equipment and I have been studying this thread with great interest. Excellent information here.

Based on my current day job and family responsibilities, I do not anticipate exceeding 40 colonies for the foreseeable future and don't want to count on anything more than the Kentucky colony average per year (approximately 40#), so realistically looking at processing 1,500 - 2,000# a year.

Based on the feedback on this thread, I am curious if it that the Maxant 'Hobbiest Package' is the best way to go for someone in my situation? In other words:

1. Is this lineup sufficiently efficient for processing a volume of up to 2,000# a year?
2. Would it be best to go with all Maxant equipment or mix/match based on other manufacturer's capabilities?

For what it is worth, it appears the current going rate including shipping for the Hobbiest Package is about $4,400.

Finally, the grant will allow me to purchase used equipment so should the opportunity to buy individual pieces present itself I will certainly avail myself of this.

Thank you all for the help and good information on this thread.

Sincerely,

Russ


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## Bdfarmer555

when I changed from a hobbies to a sidliner, I started with the dadant 20 frame extractor. It can handle 36 medium frames fully loaded. I loaded 20 frames the first year, so that a 5 gallon bucket held each load. I had 5 gallon strainers and a honey gate in each bucket and sat them into a chair to drain into regular buckets for long term storage. 

Second year I purchased the dadant 1-1/2" gear pump and their "controller 1" sump, and a retiring gentleman's Kelley 65 gallon jacketed tank. Loaded 36 frames to a load and really felt like I was getting somewhere. Lol. Added a used silver queen and built an 8' table to hold uncapped frames. 

I now have both the 1-1/2" dadant and the 1" maxant pumps, and can tell you that the dadant is by far the better unit, they were the same price when I purchased. I have a maxant sump as well, and the dadant with the 2 baffles is much better at separating the wax. I use the maxant sump when transferring honey from the Kelley tank to a milk tank I now use for storage, or as a bucket warmer. 

I have a maxant jr spinner, and it works much better at 85 degrees than it does a 70.


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## Litsinger

Bdfarmer555 said:


> I now have both the 1-1/2" dadant and the 1" maxant pumps, and can tell you that the dadant is by far the better unit, they were the same price when I purchased.


Bdfarmer555:

Thank you for your reply. I sincerely appreciate it.

It sounds as if you have quite a processing line-up and I'll confess I am a bit envious of your having a chain uncapper- that is likely not in the cards for me for the foreseeable future unless I just happen to stumble on a used one like you did.

While I don't want to read too much into your response, it sounds like you have had better luck with Dadant rather than Maxant in general?

I also surmise from your response that I might be better served to look into a 20 frame extractor out of the gate rather than buying a 9/12 frame unit and wishing I had a 20 frame unit later?

Thanks again for your advice and input- I am grateful.

Russ


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## Bdfarmer555

for the money, I would advise against the 9-12 extractor. If I'm wrong, you will have extra time to be sorry😜

Yes, I've been happier in general with dadant.


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## Litsinger

Bdfarmer555 said:


> If I'm wrong, you will have extra time to be sorry😜


Bdfarmer555:

Very funny- but I think your point is sound, and at the difference in price it is hard to argue that a 20 frame unit is a better value.

To be sure, I hadn't seriously considered a Dadant lineup, but your post made me start looking long and hard at their stuff- decisions, decisions.

Thank you again for your great advice- I do appreciate it.

Russ


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## My-smokepole

As far as extractors go both have their good points. And a lot has change in the last few years. More DC motors. I run a 5/7 year old Danant 20/30. That has given me some headache. But with their fab shop we have gotten back up and running. Older Maxant is great and great people to work with in person. But can be hard to get ahold of for some people. I have never had that problem. The main pieces I would go for is Extractor, uncapping tank, and a setting tank. When you can a honey pump and a sump. They can take a lot of the work out of it. Maxant and Danant show up at the Wooster Oh show Witch could save you a bunch on shipping. Just call head so they can bring it to the show. That is if they have it this next March.


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## grozzie2

Litsinger said:


> Very funny- but I think your point is sound, and at the difference in price it is hard to argue that a 20 frame unit is a better value.


When I was first looking at buying an extractor (7 years ago) I had made the decision to go with a 9 frame unit, then my wife asked a question. In 3 years how many boxes of honey do you expect to bring in for an extracting run? At the time we had 6 colonies, had recently moved to a rural property and a plan to grow to 50. I bought the larger Mann Lake 9/18. It's a good fit for us, we use mediums for honey and one load in the extractor is 2 boxes.

We originally did extracting in the garage, so honey often sat stacked in the garage for a while before we got to extracting it. After the boxes came off there was a lot of work to be done for starting winter prep, so the honey sat. Extracting day was always fun, but a pain. We would use the capping punch to uncap, then put frames into the extractor. It would shake and rattle for 10 minutes, had to put it on a low speed till it balanced somewhat, then another 10 minutes or more at a higher speed to get most of the honey out of the frames. We got into a mindset of 'half an hour per load'.

Then 3 years ago we built our 'honey shed' using the funds from that year honey, it's a 12x20 building, and on one end we carved off a 12x4 'warm room', which is really a 'warm closet'. The room has a door to the outside, and another inside door to the room where the extractor is set up. It's well insulated. The first time we used that setup, WOW. We put a space heater in the warm closet for 3 days before extracting, kept the temp up to around 32C. For the first time, we tried uncapping using a hot knife. Put a load of warm frames into the extractor that have cappings removed fairly evenly after using the hot knife, WOW. Very little shaking of the extractor, can dial it up to full speed within a minute or so of starting, and the frames are empty in 10 minutes or less. Our mindset has now changed from 'half hour per load' to 'how fast can we uncap'. 



















I know everybody tends to focus on the extractor when sizing for honey extraction, I now believe that is a mistake. Focus your effort on setting up to prepare for extracting, make sure you have a good way to ensure the boxes have warm honey when you are putting them into the extractor, it really makes all the difference. Feeding warm frames into a 6 frame unit will extract 20 boxes of honey faster than feeding cold frames into a 20 frame unit, and you wont end up with an extractor doing the out of balance dance all day long.

Our warm closet is sized to hold a row of 5 boxes, 2 wide, so we can get 50 boxes in there comfortably without stacking to high. 2x4 studs have fiberglass insulation, then we tacked on reflectex to close it off, also provides a little extra insulation. For winter storage, we can get 9 or 10 high with empty boxes. One of the things we paid careful attention to when building, that room is insect proof when the doors are closed, so the bees cant get in, and it's sealed well enough they cant smell the honey inside either. We learned, even a small crack under the door will create a huge disaster if you put 25 boxes of freshly pulled honey in the warm room that's only 20 meters from the hives on stands. Lesson learned first time we put honey in there, now fixed.










In hindsight, we made one big mistake setting that up. Our 'warm closet' was placed on the end of the building nearest the gate, thinking this would be best for access with the truck. Turns out that's the north side of the building, and we have a large window facing north. Had that window been facing south, we wouldn't need a heater to warm it up in September. There was a good reason for putting in a window, any bees that are still in the boxes when they come home will migrate to the window, then we can just open it and sweep them outside with a bee brush. We had old windows after replacing a few in the house, so the windows didn't add any appreciable cost to the build.

One thing we've been clear on over the years as we grow this little operation, nothing gets purchased for managing bees and honey unless the revenue from bees and honey has covered the cost. To date, we have rolled every penny the bees have produced back into more equipment to help streamline the work and process. At present we have only a few things left on the wish list for the honey shed. Next in line will be an uncapping table, then later I want to add an on demand hot water heater, probably tack one of the RV style ones on the wall outside. For now, hot water for cleanup comes from a kettle we plug in when the extractor is done.

We have had a lot of lessons along the way, bought some things in the wrong order because we didn't know any better, bought some things that turned out to be mistakes, but are now getting close to 'done buying stuff', and have most of the major items dealt with.


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## JWPalmer

Grozzie2, thanks for sharing. Like most of us that are serious hobbyists bordering on sideliner, figuring out how to get the most out of our bee dollars is important. I learned this year how important using a knife instead of a cappings scratcher is to avoiding the extractor dance. Without having to hold on to the extractor, I can uncap faster than the honey is spun out. Next up for me is an uncapping table and the year after, maybe a cappings spinner. Somewhere in there I need to figure out when to buy the bottling tank

Still doing all the extracting in the kitchen, which can get interesting when the supers are first brought in.


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## Litsinger

My-smokepole said:


> The main pieces I would go for is Extractor, uncapping tank, and a setting tank.


My-smokepole:

Thank you for your helpful reply. Good points. You make reference to a 'settling tank', and I definitely understand the advantage of having a settling tank when using a honey pump but would a bottling tank serve as a suitable dual-purpose substitute until such time as one decided to invest in a honey pump? 



My-smokepole said:


> and Danant show up at the Wooster Oh show Witch could save you a bunch on shipping. Just call head so they can bring it to the show. That is if they have it this next March.


While Wooster might be a bit farther than I want to drive, I'll almost bet they might both come to the Heartland Apicultural Society meetings- great idea!

p.s. Nice business website!


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## Litsinger

grozzie2 said:


> I know everybody tends to focus on the extractor when sizing for honey extraction, I now believe that is a mistake. Focus your effort on setting up to prepare for extracting, make sure you have a good way to ensure the boxes have warm honey when you are putting them into the extractor, it really makes all the difference. Feeding warm frames into a 6 frame unit will extract 20 boxes of honey faster than feeding cold frames into a 20 frame unit, and you wont end up with an extractor doing the out of balance dance all day long.


Grozzie2:

Thank you for the detailed and helpful reply. There was a lot of great information packed-into your response, and I went back and read it three times to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

To be certain, I have thought about the environment when extracting, but I can honestly admit that I too have been focused on the extractor size as a potential bottleneck, missing the important points you are making about the honey temperature and the efficiency of uncapping being at least as important in terms of processing speed.

Your honey shed is impressive- for my part I will likely have to continue working out of my garage for the foreseeable future, but even with that your point about a 'warming closet' is brilliant- this would be relatively easy to incorporate and could likely double as good off-season storage of supers- if nothing else to keep the kids from knocking the stacks over when roller blading in the garage when it is too cold to go outside 🤯.



grozzie2 said:


> We have had a lot of lessons along the way, bought some things in the wrong order because we didn't know any better, bought some things that turned out to be mistakes, but are now getting close to 'done buying stuff', and have most of the major items dealt with.


This is one of the many things I appreciate about this forum- there are many things about beekeeping that I would only learn by trying myself, and I appreciate folks like yourself who are willing to share your considerable experience.

Thanks again for your input- I really appreciate it.

Russ


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## My-smokepole

Litsinger said:


> My-smokepole:
> 
> Thank you for your helpful reply. Good points. You make reference to a 'settling tank', and I definitely understand the advantage of having a settling tank when using a honey pump but would a bottling tank serve as a suitable dual-purpose substitute until such time as one decided to invest in a honey pump?
> 
> 
> 
> While Wooster might be a bit farther than I want to drive, I'll almost bet they might both come to the Heartland Apicultural Society meetings- great idea!
> 
> p.s. Nice business website!


In talks with the Maxant people 


Litsinger said:


> My-smokepole:
> 
> Thank you for your helpful reply. Good points. You make reference to a 'settling tank', and I definitely understand the advantage of having a settling tank when using a honey pump but would a bottling tank serve as a suitable dual-purpose substitute until such time as one decided to invest in a honey pump?
> 
> 
> 
> While Wooster might be a bit farther than I want to drive, I'll almost bet they might both come to the Heartland Apicultural Society meetings- great idea!
> 
> p.s. Nice business website!


In my talks with Maxant people. They only do a couple shows each year. I would email them to check on their plans. The problem using a bottling tank is. You said you are harvesting two thousand pounds most tanks hold just a few hundred. I have a 1000 lb tank that I fill 5 gallons buckets with As my setting tank.


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## My-smokepole

Once you get spoiled to haveing even a small simple line you will never go back.


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## Litsinger

My-smokepole said:


> In my talks with Maxant people. They only do a couple shows each year. I would email them to check on their plans. The problem using a bottling tank is. You said you are harvesting two thousand pounds most tanks hold just a few hundred. I have a 1000 lb tank that I fill 5 gallons buckets with As my setting tank.





My-smokepole said:


> Once you get spoiled to haveing even a small simple line you will never go back.


Thank you, My-smokepole. I think I get your point now- moving from a batch operation to a line operation requires the storage capacity. Makes good sense to me now.

I have contacted both Dadant and Maxant to inquire as to their anticipated show participation for 2021- good idea.

Thanks again for your help. Have a great day.

Russ


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## grozzie2

JWPalmer said:


> Next up for me is an uncapping table and the year after, maybe a cappings spinner. Somewhere in there I need to figure out when to buy the bottling tank


A good uncapping table is our next item for the honey shed. We dont have, and probably never will have either the spinner or the bottling tank.

Our whole setup is sized to process 50 supers at a time, that fits well in the warming closet, and we have space to store 50 empties at the far end past the extractor. From 50 supers the amount of cappings we will have to process is not really a huge amount. In a proper cappings table, left to drain for a couple days, we can recover at least 80% of the honey in those cappings. For the little we are not getting that way, it's just not worth the expense and space for the spinner. I know at present if I put a bunch of cappings into a paint strainer and hang it over a bucket, left for a week the wax will be quite dry. I just cant justify the expense, or floor space, for a spinner.

Bottling tank is a 'for sure never get' for us. Bottling honey from a tank is a boring and tedious task. My wife and I have a clear division of duties, I tend the bees, we extract together, then it's her honey to deal with, bottles and sales. She hates sitting at a bottling tank and the tedious task of filling bottles manually. We were at a provincial association meet a few years back and the nassenheider rep had a show special for the demo unit, I bought it (isn't there some old saying about the benefits of a happy wife ??). Mann Lake sells it re-badged as the Mann Lake EZ-Fill. We have a 10 gallon metal tank, unheated, that we use as the feed tank for that thing, pour in 5 gallon buckets of honey as required. We can bottle 50 cases in a couple hours using it. We dont store our honey in buckets or a tank, we consider bottling to be the last step in our extracting process.

We extract into 5 gallon buckets, they have the cheap plastic honey gate on them. Those buckets go on a shelf that's visible behind the extractor in the photo above. Overnight the crud floats up, and some settles. Open the gate the next day and clear honey flows to the bucket below. Stop pouring when you start to see the crud. The leftovers get combined into a single bucket and that one goes thru a fine strainer. The rest get bottled using the filler machine right away. Our long term storage for honey is in the bottles it will be sold in.

I will say this, I peeked at the Mann Lake price on the filler earlier, we paid a LOT less than that, probably in the range of half, maybe a bit less than half. We bought it at a time when the Canadian dollar was very strong, and we did get a bargain in the show special. We've been very happy with it, it's set up permanently in the honey shed, there is a table under the window across from the extractor where it's set up, and a re-inforced shelf at the correct height for the feed tank. I dont think I would buy it today if we had to pay the Mann Lake list price and account for the current levels of exchange on the dollar. With that said, I wouldn't buy it, but my wife would probably buy it anyways.... Did I mention something about a happy wife ????



Litsinger said:


> Your honey shed is impressive- for my part I will likely have to continue working out of my garage for the foreseeable future, but even with that your point about a 'warming closet' is brilliant- this would be relatively easy to incorporate and could likely double as good off-season storage of supers


Our closet holds 50 supers set up for warming honey, that means none of them are above shoulder height. At the end of the season, it can hold close to a hundred if we stack them to the ceiling. We do story wet supers in there over the winter, bees love it when you put a wet super over the excluder in the spring, they are up and into that super in 5 minutes.

Like I said, this has been a project that's grown over the years. We bought this place and moved here in August of 2013, moved the bees in September. Our original plan was to grow to 50 colonies, but a lesson we've learned along the way, 25 well managed colonies are more productive than 50 poorly managed. 25 well managed colonies will bring 50 supers to the shed on an extraction cycle.

Some of the things we did along the way that didn't work out as planned. When we moved here, we owned a camper van and did not own a pickup. I bought a trailer for hauling bees. It was ok, but, it was difficult to deal with on logging roads where we to get the fireweed crop, and really limiting in choice of locations because it's rather difficult to turn around a 19 foot van pulling a trailer when you are 3 miles down a single lane logging track that hasn't had traffic for a couple years. For a couple years I had to back the trailer in close to a mile to reach the bee yard. I kept my eyes on craigslist for a year and a half till one day this popped up at a price I could manage.










Picked that up in spring of 2018, and it's been a game changer. I can put 16 colonies on the deck. 4wd opens the doors to many yard locations for us out in the logging areas. We go into a patch that was logged a few years ago, drive down one of the side spurs to reach one of the old landings and put a bee yard there. The spot we were at this year put the colonies in the middle of a patch with 500 acres of fireweed in bloom.










Plans do tend to change somewhat over time, original plan was to grow to 50, but we scaled back for a number of reasons, not the least of which is we both still have full time work outside of tending bees. I think next summer we will grow the count of producing colonies to 32 simply because that fills the deck of the truck for both trips out to the summer yards. We have enough nucs on the stands to do that easily in the spring. In our area, 32 colonies should produce about 1250kg of honey in a season.


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## Litsinger

grozzie2 said:


> Bottling tank is a 'for sure never get' for us.
> 
> ... Mann Lake sells it re-badged as the Mann Lake EZ-Fill. We have a 10 gallon metal tank, unheated, that we use as the feed tank for that thing, pour in 5 gallon buckets of honey as required. We can bottle 50 cases in a couple hours using it. We dont store our honey in buckets or a tank, we consider bottling to be the last step in our extracting process.


Grozzie2:

I enjoyed reading your update, and your point about bottling tank versus honey bottler is certainly thought-provoking. As a means of comparison, I was also looking at Lyson's honey processing equipment and I notice that they have a bottler that is quite a bit cheaper (at least currently) versus the Mann-Lake version:






Lyson Honey Bottler | Betterbee


Lyson Honey Bottler The honey bottler is a device for pumping, measuring, and dispensing honey into containers. It is actuated by foot pedal and pumps from a tank into containers. This bottler is programmable and will dispense




www.betterbee.com





Based on your current set-up, do you expect that a bottling table is in the cards for you down the road?



grozzie2 said:


> Like I said, this has been a project that's grown over the years. We bought this place and moved here in August of 2013, moved the bees in September. Our original plan was to grow to 50 colonies, but a lesson we've learned along the way, 25 well managed colonies are more productive than 50 poorly managed. 25 well managed colonies will bring 50 supers to the shed on an extraction cycle.


I do appreciate you walking-through the lessons-learned along the way- your 4WD truck looks like a good example of this, and I can see how this makes migratory beekeeping (at least on a regional scale) a very doable endeavor. 

Finally, I won't lie- the photo of the fireweed made me a bit envious...it is not endemic to Kentucky.






Fireweed







www.fs.fed.us





Thank you again for the advice and input- it is most appreciated.

Russ


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