# Follow up to New Neighbors Problems



## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Now that the note has arrived you need to take some sort of action. Avoiding the problem is only going to make it grow. You want to project a posture of reasonableness - that you are at least willing to have a dialog. Use that opportunity to do as much education as you can.

If the neighbor remains adamant with a "bees go now!" attitude, consider your options. What do your other neighbors think of the bees? Are any of them ones that that your new neighbors would at least listen to?

Only as a last resort should you go with "the bees were here first and the law says I can keep them attitude." If it goes there, you might see if the neighbor's application of "bee spray" was per label.

Good luck! And keep us updated!


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> ..."accosted by the bees"...

Sounds like an education issue, unless the hives
are too numerous for the yard. Foragers ignore
people, they don't "accost" them.

> ..."he rode close to a large rock and up 
> swarmed a bunch of bees"...

That's likely not bees at all. I'd guess yellow
jackets.

> ..."I dont really know how we will ever be 
> re-compensated"...

Sounds like the tenant wants out of the lease,
and/or some sort of "damages" from the landlord.
Given that you have no idea what other issues
have been trotted out by the tenant to the
landlord.

> "Could you take care of this matter please."

Uh huh, sure. The landlord wants YOU to handle
a problem tenant for him, and wants to make it 
yourproblem. (I assume that no other neighbor 
has complained, something you should point out
to the landlord.)

Move the hives to the far side of your yard,
point the entrances away from their yard,
put up a barrier (fence, bushes, whatever)
to get those bees to gain some altitude as they
take off, and get some feeders on the hives to
keep the bees at home, rather than out looking
for robbing opportunities.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Well, Chief, this situation sure has gone to hell in a handbasket. I hope you're proud of yourself!

>>Sounds like an education issue,

Way too late for that now. Way. Late.

Through no real fault of your own, you've managed to totally alienated the neighbor. Now all you have to do is totally alienate the landlord and your descent to the dark side will be complete









Since they haven't brought legal action yet, chances are they can't (i.e., you're within your legal rights to keep bees) and unless they choose to manufacture a stinging incident and bring a civil action against you, they're outa options. A civil suit is not likely- it would cost them an arm and a leg and further traumatize the kid with no certainty of winning. Their approach to the problem (based on their letter) appears to be to negotiate a cheaper lease (thanks to your bees!) or as a last resort, get the halibut outa town.

The landlord simply wants the problem to go away and puts it (literally) on your door step to see if you can help. Poor man. I feel sorry for him. Not! He's a landlord and apeasing or getting rid of whining and difficult to deal with tenants goes with the territory. You can bet the disclosure statement on the next lease on the place will include a prominent note about the bum next door with his bees.

The next step is up to him, unless you choose to defuse the situation by getting rid of your bees. They're his tenants. Let him deal with the problem.

George-


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## Hillside (Jul 12, 2004)

One of my greatest worries is that some neighbor will cause trouble over my bees.

The renter very obviously has no idea what she's talking about, but has decided what she's going to believe, and I doubt you're going to change her mind. If she were Joe McCarthy, you would definitely be a communist. 

It looks to me like you have been forced into a position of deciding about your reletionship with the land owner. Can you afford to alienate him? If he loses his tenant, he may come after you for the cost of finding a new renter - or more.

If it came down to a law suit, you might have trouble showing that the renter is unreasonable since most people know nothing about bees and little cases tend to turn more on which judge you get than what the law actually says. Plus the cost of defending yourself in court can be considerable.

I don't know what I would do, but I would certainly consider moving the hives if i could find some place within a reasonable distance where they were welcome. 

In some cases, there is no winning, you just have to choose the most palatable form of losing.

I love my friends, and I enjoy my neighbors, but I've always said that God didn't intend anyone to live on less than about 40 acres. And that would be the bare minimum.


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## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

> Thank you for you time
> Amy, Ray and Alexis Piper


You need to delete names. Attorneys love that kind of "public humiliation". 

You have to decide how much the bees in their present location are worth to you. These things inevitably involve time and money, with no assurance that it's going to turn out well for you. Mama's made up her mind, and when mama ain't happy, nobody's happy. I keep two hives at my house in town, and if faced with the same thing I'd be inclined to move them to a demilitarized zone.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

I think now is the time to move your bees to another location and replace them with empty boxes. Wait 30 days and ask your neighbor if your bees are still bothering her. Of course, they will be, so you show her the empty boxes and explain that other bees are her problem, not yours. Yours have been gone for a month. Then move yours back, out of site of the neighbor and street, if possible.


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

Hi Chef,

I think you need to power up with some *factual* amunition (sp?). Like some real hard facts that honeybees don't just go out and attack people for no reason and that they are mostly very docile, but yellow jackets and wasps do. Where is the proof that their children were attacked by honey bees?? I think this is BS and I would certainly gather my ducks in a row about how to present some hard facts about honeybees to these stupid people. Seriously, you should gather up the information and present it to them. If you don't, these people will drive you insane. Next step is the court system and you really don't want to have to go there, but if you do, the only thing you got going for you is the fact that you were there first and somehow you have to prove that your honey bees are NOT Afrian Honey Bees... like they probably saw and freaked out in the movies - gee, thanks Hollywood!

Frankly, around here where I live, these city people come to the mountains and want to change everything about where we live - they want to *combat* nature, they are so friggin aggressive and just plain ignorant. Eventually they will get their way and destroy this beautiful countryside, but they will never take away my bees!!!!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Even with my hottest bees (the Buckfasts gone berserk) not more than one would harass me if I was more than 30 feet from the hives. Her descriptions are inconsistent with the behavior of honey bees. Unfortunately, only a beekeeper would know that for a fact.

Id do what you can to educate and inform, but its probably too late to accomplish much with that. You have to choose to either move them to smooth things over or stand your ground.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

"We have tried everything in our power to get him to get rid of the bees but to no avail."

What exactly have they done to try and get you to get rid of your bees?

This:

"I don’t really know how we will ever be re-compensated for the loss and anguish we have incurred due to this.."

and this:

"It is illogical to pay for the amenities we cant even use."

make it pretty clear this is now about dollars, not bees. It used to be about bees. Even if you got rid of your bees now, these people still want the landlord to drop the rent. There's a veiled threat contained in that message, but it's directed toward the landlord, not you.

We live in a litigious society. It's possible these people might try to sue you but it's a long shot. It's more likely they'd try and sue the landlord, to break the lease and get their deposit back and any advance rent, and maybe some anguish money. It's even less likely the landlord would try to exact damages from you just because his tenants shafted him, and pretty unlikely that he would succeed, if he tried. He can always rent the place to someone else. I would not cower in fear of possible legal action against you.

I'd like to think that if I was in your shoes, I'd keep my bees there and thumb my nose at the neighbors, but that's easy to say from where I sit. You've got to do what you feel good about.

George-


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## carbide (Nov 21, 2004)

Have you had any complaints from your other neighbors about your bees? Have any of them made any negative comments or accusations about being "accosted" by your bees? If not, could any of them be considered as possible witnesses on your behalf if it came to a legal battle with this woman? Do you know any of them well enough to ask them if they have had any problems with your bees being where they are? 

If you have a legal right in your area to raise bees, and you are complying with any ordinances or laws relative to the raising of bees, I'd ignore the letter that was posted on your door and if it is ever brought up I'd ask "What letter?". Her writing to her landlord has absolutely no bearing on you and his taping it to your door doesn't mean a thing. Has she complained to local officials about your bees? Has she filed a formal complaint? If you haven't heard from the local constabulary I'd conclude that she probably hasn't.

I'd totally ignore her and hope that she does in fact move out at the end of her lease.


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## Propolis30 (Aug 25, 2005)

That is my worst fear too, especially since we're moving in 2 months and will have neighboors. If they were home owners I would consider locating the hives to another place just to bring peace. I sure would hate to do it for people that are renting though becasue they may move out in 2 months and someone who could care less about the bees may move in. Casue we all know it's a pain to move hives!!! I can definately see the bees ganging up at the public playground though, especially if they are like the ones when I was kid where the trash cans are full of coke cans and half eatin candy. But then again if your bees weren't there some other bees would be. Unfortuantly it's hard to make people see that end of it.

When we moved out of our house last week the nearest neighboor that lives about 1/2 mile away stopped by to say goodbye. She told us that she left a Coke can on the back patio a few weeks ago and came back out to see it covered with bees. She actually found it facinating and even told me she was hoping we would leave the bees becasue they were so good for their garden. I hope we get more neighboors like these!!!

[ November 04, 2005, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Propolis30 ]


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

Chief I'll give you the link for a photo comparison of bees, wasps, hornets and yellow jackets. It sounds like what they encountered were YJ's. Nasty little ground dwellers. Especially when they said that they swarmed up at them. May be you can check it out to satisfy your self it might be to your best interest and help defuse the situation. Then if it is YJ's maybe, some how, you can catch a couple and a couple of your bees and show them the difference. The site I've included may then help a great deal. You know and the readers of this site know that bees, save the AFB (and even they can be worked), are not aggresive by nature, unless provoked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_tell_bees_from_wasps 

Hope this helps, definitely education time. Hope everything works out for you. Before anything drastic happens.
If I can help give me a call. Just don't do anything rash.
Have you an extra bee-suit?? Maybe inviting them to look into your hive with you may help.

[ November 04, 2005, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: SilverFox ]


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## Troutsqueezer (May 17, 2005)

Ignore the the neighbors and their landlord. Go on with your life. Sounds like the renters are finding their own way out anyway. Like a previous poster said, that's the landlord's problem, not yours. 

If someone takes you to court, they'll have to prove their case. A photo would help to provide proof on behalf of the plaintif and that's just what you need to illustrate that the culprits are not honey bees after all.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

It looks to me like we're all giving you legal advice that should come from an attorney. Consult with yours. Now for my legal advice:

The landlord has asked you to handle the problem. In soing so, he gave your the authority to handle it. I would put a "For Sale" sign in their front yard. I haven't decided yet whose phone number on the sign. He'd re-think it.

That was a joke. Ask your attorney.

Hawk


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Let's be practical. Winter's coming on. Move the bees for the time you can't work them anyway. I love the empty box trick. Take photos of the move and somehow date it/document it. So they can't say, "they were there yesterday." In the spring move them back quietly. I'm willing to bet the problem will be over by then. 

She has had advice. The story about the child that was afraid to go back for his bike is the kind of thing a lawyer would like.

This woman has an irrational fear of bees. She has transferred it to her children and a neighbors child. You aren't going to change that because you don't have that kind of relationship with her. You could work in that direction if you could find and kill a yellowjacket nest for her.

Dickm


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I admit, I like the "empty box" senario. Move the hive and put empty boxes in their place and wait for her to complain again. Or better yet make a compaint to the authorities. Then you can show them the empty boxes with no bees in them.


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## Darrel Wright (Jun 30, 2004)

This whole thing just doesn't sound right. Are your entrances pointed away from their yard? I just have never seen bees that wanted to forage that close to the hive...I have never noticed even an increase in the number of bees in MY yard since I started keeping them, other than the flight path and obviously the area about 10 yards around the hive.

If it were me, I'd go to the lady with the letter and tell her that you had no idea that this was such a problem for her, and that you have never even heard of such things as she describes being due to honeybees. I'd go over to her yard and ask where the bees are. For all you know, maybe a swarm has taken up residence somewhere in the yard, or more likely, it is yellowjackets. Or most likely, she is just listening to her daughter who is afraid and probably tells her 10 times a day that the bees "attacked" her because she saw thee horseflies, three yellowjackets, a wasp, two fireflies, and a bee.

The one incident she writes about was almost certainly yellowjackets. You should ask her how you are ever going to get over the emotional distress of being blamed for every stinging insect on the planet.

The empty box trick should work for next spring, though that is a huge pain in the butt.

I think the worry surrounding legal action is overblown. If she is an idiot, she may try to sue somebody, but who and why? I can't think of anything that wouldn't be dismissed--as long as you are staying within the local ordinances on beekeeping.


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## Darrel Wright (Jun 30, 2004)

On reading the letter again I think it is pretty funny. Bees are constantly "accosting" her daughter? To the point that they have no hope of ever again living in peace and safety. To the point that it would be impossible to compensate them for the mental torment? But no one has even been stung once?

This simply isn't possible with bees, unless the kid is constanly smeared with sugar syrup and stands in one place all day long. In which case they still won't sting her. Ask her what "accosted" is supposed to mean. It sounds like she thinks bees are sexual deviants.


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## Man O' War (Jul 11, 2005)

If she and her family leave beverage containers with HFCs out in the yard (even for as little as 60 min.)foragers of all kinds will come in great numbers if there is no other natural sources. Take
pictures (for the court battle) if this situation exists.

Offer to put out a few yellow jacket traps in her yard and convince her that your bees are not the
problem.

Check with your agent or underwriter and see if bees on your property are excluded from your liability insurance coverage, if they are not, stay within the city, county and state laws and let the woman know she'll be going up against an Insurance Company. This fact alone dissuades a lot of people from any type of legal action.

If being kind fails, offer her the name of a good Psychiatrist and tell her to P%#* off!


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

I think we already concluded that this lady is a wacko nut job from the last thread. I remember the advise to avoid any conversation with the lady, and I still think this is good. You will never convince her that there is nothing to fear, as her fear is a psycological problem. 

And by no means enter her house to discuss it. No telling what she might say you did to her while inside her house. Don't give her anymore honey either.

You have one beehive and she is claming the bees are after them up the street at the playground.
Thats a paranoia problem. Possibly a control problem too. I feel sorry for her kids. She's handing down her problems to them.

I wouldn't worry much about her landlord. He likely pasted the note on the door so he can say to her. "I discussed the situation with him and asked him to do something about it."

As before, know your rights, hold steady, and wait her out.

Thanks for the update, its interesting, keep us informed.

[ November 05, 2005, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: MichaelW ]


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

Yea, don't give her anymore honey..she might start accusing you of *honey poisoning* or something strange like that,


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

Chief; Here is a starting place for you,

http://agr.wa.gov/plantsinsects/lawsrules.htm

Just to let you know the part of registering hives, is questioned by an old bee keeper, as the state has no inspector. You can give me a call.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

I think the empty box idea is the best so far. Even better would be to put empty hives in place of the live ones (pics and witness, good idea) and then go over and ask to try to work this out with her.

"Please document on this diary the dates and times that my bees are a problem for you. Here's a swatter and some jars of alcohol... please kill a bee that's a problem when you can and date the jar, so I can see which are the mean ones. It'll help me make this better for you!"

She'll feel mollified that you're taking seriously her (very real to her) concerns. She'll be the one documenting that YJs are indeed the likely culprits so you may have an opportunity to educate her, and all her documentation will likely help hoist her by her own petard if the problem becomes litigation when you demonstrate that your hives have been gone but the problem continued.

One of my personal mottos : "Hope for the best" (she'll feel she finally got some results when you took her seriously, and maybe she'll learn that honeybees were not the problem), "but plan for the worst" (lay the groundwork documentation that you'd need if this goes south on you). 

Best part is aside from moving the hives, she'll be doing much of the work that'll protect you which looks great in court. Talk about a Perry Mason moment.... "Well officer he promised that if I documented all these problems he'd finally be reasonable and stop trying to kill my daughter"... Josh, after dramatically kicking over the empty hives wearing only shorts says "as you can see from these documents those hives were two miles away this entire time".


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Well... you are a land/home owner. You have the right to have them there. They RENT. They can move. It might be somewhat different if they owned their house. Than I might put fourth a little more effort to please them. 

You could educate them but other meembers are right... when she has made up her mind, there is not changing it. 

I would try to stay on the landlords good side and try to relate to him as much as possible. But you dont really need to but it would be a nice gesture. You might tell the landlore that you are willing to sit down and talk with the people with a mediator (sp?). 

I do like the fake hive idea. I would use that when it comes court time granting the press legal action against you. 

but in my opinion, you own the house, you are not breaking the law by having too many bees. 

I see a lot of people getting confused and are mis lead about honeybees. it is a shame really.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Good thinking Ben. I thought I was the only one left who knows what a petard is.

Hawk


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Not the only one Hawk! I smiled when I read that too









George-


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## chief (Apr 19, 2005)

Dong, 

I would like to address the letter which was written to you by your tenants to give you my perspective and opinions regarding this matter. I have outlined some of my dealings with your tenant below as well as my knowledge about the honey bees that I keep. Below I have responded to some quotes out of the letter that she has sent to you regarding my bees.


As you know we have had series issues with our neighbor housing live bees hives. We have tried everything in our power to get him to get rid of the bees but to no avail.

I, the keeper of the honey bees, have only had two serious conversations about the beehives with your tenants. She has talked with others of our household a few times but I dont think she can say that she has done everything in her power to get me to get rid of the bees. This statement comes as a bit of a surprise to me because I thought the issue had been settled awhile ago when she thanked me for moving two of my hives. 

The first conversation was at her request and she informed me then of her dislike and fear of my honey bees. She claimed that my bees were all over her backyard and she wanted me to get rid of my bees. She stated that she was worried for her daughters safety and possible allergy to bee stings. I asked if her daughter had been checked for an allergy to bee stings and she said she had not. She then informed me she did not have a car to take her daughter to the hospital if she was stung and had an allergic reaction. I then tried to inform her that honey bees were relatively docile and that she need not worry about them being aggressive towards her daughter. She did not seem to be interested in this information. Then she changed tones a little and said she had called some authority about bees that said it was illegal to have bees on my small residential lot. I have the state, county, and city codes all of which say I am within the law. She claims her husband is deathly allergic to bees as well, that it runs in his family and he stepped on some bees that had a hive in the ground and got stung so many times that now he is deathly allergic. This is very inconsistent with what I have learned of honey bee allergies. I asked if any of her family had been stung, if the bees were bumping into them, or flying around their heads and she admitted that they were not. I gave her my Beekeeping for Dummies book so she could learn more about bees and why I keep them. She said that no matter how much she learns about bees she still doesnt want them next to her yard. This showed to me she had a very inflexible attitude towards the situation. She also tried to get a hold of the state but we have no state bee inspector anymore. She then informed me of new private individuals that could take care of this matter. Im not sure if that was a threat or what that means but I am unaware of any private individuals who would have any authority in this matter. I finally told her I would do all in my power to keep them out of her yard. I told her that I planned on keeping the hives and that I would make sure they had a water source in my backyard in the event that they were finding a water source in her yard that was attracting them.

The second time I talked with her she returned the book I had let her borrow about honey bees and informed me she was grateful because I had moved two of my hives to another location.


As you also know, we have a small daughter and choose this particular house due to the security of the enclosed backyard and the playground up the street. Because of these amenities we were OK with paying the extra in rent. Yet over the past months every time we try to play outside or at the playground area we are forced to cower back in our home because there are just too many bees.

This sounds like a gross exaggeration to me. None of the other neighbors have complained about abnormal bee populations. Two neighbors have appreciated the presence of bees to aid in the pollination of their gardens. Another neighbor has even come into my backyard and inspected the bees with me. Chances are there are other beekeepers, feral honey bee colonies, and not to mention numerous yellow jacket, wasp and hornets nests. My colonies would only constitute a small percentage of the total bee population in the area.


Our daughter has been accosted by the bees so many times that she is now terrified of most flying insects and is even wary to even go out in our own backyard, so much so that now when she sees the bees she screams and cries in fright.

It is very uncharacteristic of honey bees to accost anyone. This is a behavior much more characteristic of wasps, hornets, and yellow jackets. The bees I keep have been bred for centuries to be as docile as possible. I can work them with little or no protective clothing. I sit and read or eat lunch at least once a week right next to the entrance of the hives; we mow the grass around the hives, and do all sorts of activities in our back yard and are never accosted by the honey bees. This statement is also inconsistent to what she had told me earlier when I had asked if any of her family had been stung, if the bees were bumping into them, or flying around their heads and she said that they were not.


Due to this and the ever-increasing number in the bee population we have not been able to use the backyard in months. 

Honey bees forage in a three mile radius of their hive. That is approximately 18,096 acres of foraging area. It seems unlikely that they would they concentrate their resources on her yard which is very small and has no apparent food source. I have observed that they do not forage even in my yard. If there were such an attractive source of food in her back yard it would be attracting bees up to three miles away and therefore my bees could not be blamed as the only offenders. The same goes for the park. There is no reason why there should be a disproportionate amount of my bees in the park. We have a six foot fence between our yards and if the bees fly over her yard they will do so at over six feet of elevation. 


The playground has also been taken over as one day when Alexis and I were walking a young boy was riding his bike next to us, when we got up to the playground he rode close to a large rock and up swarmed a bunch of bees. He jumped off his bike and ran away to a safe distance. I sent Alexis over to stand next to him and went to retrieve the bike, as he was too scared to even pick up his own bike.

Honey bees do not hide under rocks in the park. This would be another very abnormal thing for honey bees to do. Some types of hornets/wasps live underground but honey bees do not. All I have to say to this statement is that it is absurd to blame the honey bees in my backyard, which are several houses away from the park, for any incident in the park. Most likely there are bees of many varieties and many sources in the park. This statement leads me to question her ability to distinguish honey bees form other forms of bees or insects. 


I dont really know how we will ever be re-compensated for the loss and anguish we have incurred due to this, but we hope that you as the homeowner can do something that maybe we couldnt accomplish. We really love this place and do not want to leave it for many years, but if this is not taken care of, once our lease is up we will have no choice but to move on. It is illogical to pay for the amenities we cant even use.
You are the only one we can turn to if we have any hope at all of staying here and raising our family in peace and safety.

I personally dont feel her family is in any real danger. I think she has blown this way out of proportion. Its not as if she is surrounded by drug dealers and drive by shootings. If these bees were located in the hollow of a tree or an attic she would most likely have overlooked them and had no problems with them. I think her fears come from a lack of knowledge of the impact a honey bee hive can have on a neighborhood. 

If I were you I would also be careful that she does not use this as a creative way to get the rent reduced. This letter has numerous references to her unwillingness to pay the current rent and all the losses she has allegedly incurred. 

Josh

Attached is a copy of the city, county, and state laws regarding the keeping of honey bees.

Auburn City Code

The city of auburn has no apparent regulations on the keeping of honey bees. There is only one brief reference to honey bees and I am in compliance with it as far as I can tell.

Auburn City Code, Title 8 HEALTH AND SAFETY*, Chapter 8.12 PUBLIC NUISANCES, 8.12.020 Nuisances affecting public health and safety.

8.12.020

M. Nests, colonies, hives or apiaries of bees, Africanized honey bees, yellow jacket, hornets or wasps which are not in full compliance with Chapter 15.60 RCW or Chapter 16-602 WAC, or which are not in full compliance with the citys zoning and land use codes or with the citys business licensing and registration codes;


King County Code

The king county code for beekeeping is stated below and I am also in compliance with it.

21A.30.020 of K.C.C. 11.04 
Sections a through f are not applicable to beekeeping and have not been included for clarity sake.g. Beekeeping is limited as follows:

(1) Beehives are limited to 50 on sites less than five acres ;

(2) The number of beehives shall not be limited on sites of five acres or greater;

(3) Colonies shall be maintained in movable-frame hives at all times;

(4) Adequate space shall be provided in each hive to prevent overcrowding and swarming;

(5) Colonies shall be requeened following any swarming or aggressive behavior;

(6) All colonies shall be registered with the County Extension agent prior to April 1st of each year, on a state registration form acceptable to the county; and

(7) Abandoned colonies, diseased bees, or bees living in trees, buildings, or any other space except in movable-frame hives shall constitute a public nuisance, and shall be abated as set forth in K.C.C. 21A.50,


Washington State Laws

Washington State laws on beekeeping can be found at the following websites:

http://www.leg.wa.gov/RCW/index.cfm?fuseaction=chapterdigest&chapter=15.60 
http://www.leg.wa.gov/WAC/index.cfm?fuseaction=chapterdigest&chapter=16-602 

My hives are registered with the state and the fees paid.

[ November 07, 2005, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: chief ]


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## chief (Apr 19, 2005)

Above is the letter I plan to send to the landlord. Please feel free to critique it. I tried not to be to critical or condescending but it was hard. I also tried to incorporate as many of your ideas as possible but it was getting long so sorry if I left you out. Again let me know what I should change or if you think this letter is appropriate at all. Thanks.


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## SilverFox (Apr 25, 2003)

Looks real good. Hopes it works, just for giggles you might include a copy of how to tell the difference from the 'wikipedia' the one I had attached.
To bad that it has to come to you having to respond in this fasion, but, I guess, when a person has a phobia and can't be reasoned with,??? Well----
I think the letter is or should be the end of it, or at least I hope so for you. 
IMHO, you've been more than fair in the pursuit of a peaceful settlement.
IMHO; I still think that you should check out the "swarm" of bee from the rock she mentioned, but that's just me. 

[ November 07, 2005, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: SilverFox ]


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

I like your letter and agree with the tone and information. She's a NUT. I had a similar problem with a neighbor and my German Shepherd Dogs. The neighbor flipped out just because I had them and just knew they would be jumping the 4 foot fence and attacking her. LOL


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

looks good to me chief, and well worded too.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Move the freakin bees!!! It is too late for any other action.

Being phobic about anything is horrible. I am not condoning her behavior, just the opposite. She is wrong without a doubt. But it is on you to move the bees.

If this goes to court on any level you will lose. And possibly big. Especially now that it is documented that you have received written notice.

You can remain indignant and stand your ground for "principal" but be prepared for consequences and $$$$ spent dealing with it.

Also, I would contact your insurance carrier. I have a feeling your coverage may be null and void on any damages from the bees due to the fact you have been notifed.

Good luck......


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Letter looks good, dealing with the landowner is a good idea.

Bruce, you live WAY out in the country. Most of us have to deal with wackos in one way or another living close by. I think Chief should keep his bees. We can't please everyone and it would be doing her a service to make her live with it. 

Neigbors are routinly pushing for the neigborhood to be one thing or another. I know one guy who recieved a complaint of animal cruelty for yelling at his chickens because they would not lay. Some offical came out and talked to him just to say he did. They discussed how people moving into that formerly agricultural area just don't get it. (Not that I condone yelling at your chickens.)

Another guy I know is well within his rights to keep what looks to be 50-100 hives in his back yard. Its a subdivision in a kindof rural area. His back yard has a small field and some woods. In his neigborhood bees really are all over the place. I remember getting some mean looks driving in his place one day, and he grumbled something about complaints, but he's been doing it for decades. You just gotta live the way you want to and if you are forced by government to quit an activity that does not harm anyone, thats to a sad day indeed. You can always fight against it, but you have to decide if its worth it. I don't think Chief is even close to that point yet.


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

Just by reading the replies by everyone I can tell that it gets everyones dander up, along with mine. We also have a neighbor that hasnt seemed to like us much, they have horses on about 13 acres with a pasture right next to about seven hives. The lady also teaches riding lessons, the lessons are taught quiet a distance from where the bees are. One day I was retrieving a swarm from a pine tree behind the hives when the riding lessons suddenly switch right behind the hives. I was quiet peeved at the callousness of the woman to try and create a stinging incident, especially with kids other than her own. 

However the whole plan backfired when of course nobody got stung and the kids watched riveted to the fence and started to pummel me with questions, of course I am always happy to answer. It turned into a very good teaching class and the kids wouldnt to continue the riding lessons until the honeybee show was complete. 

I say stand your ground, your neighbors are obviously close minded people that like to roll in there ignorance. Your other neighbors dont seem to have a problem, sounds like they are looking for lower rent. 
Let the fools move!


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## carbide (Nov 21, 2004)

Having someone tack a letter to your door is NOT documented written notice. It is simply someone tacking something to your door. In order for it to be documented written notice (legal wise)it has to be delivered by a bona fide delivery service (such as the Post Office) with a signed receipt. Or if you respond to it as your above letter indicates you are going to.

I don't know exactly what you have been doing with your honey, but according to my insurance agent if I do not sell it and simply use it for myself or give it to friends and neighbors then my homeowners policy treats it as a hobby. The insurance company is responsible for any monetary damage to my hives or for any damage awards leveled by an authorized court of law (up to the limits of the policy).


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

The insurance issue here is not about honey. The issue is their coverage of you should a law suit arrise involving the bees stinging or harassing the neighbor. It is a liability issue.

Their wording already gives hints of the groundwork of such a suit.

Judges in civil actions would consider the posting of a notice on your front door notice. The standards in civil (small claims especially) are completely different than criminal actions.

MichaelW..... Having lived in inner city south Minneapolis for 5 years. And St. Cloud for 10 I am very familiar with neighbor reactions. I once had a lady file small claims on me for lawn clipping being blown on her yard. Thrown out thankfully.

As a beekeeper I'd love to see the neighbor back off or move away. At this point it does not look like that is going to happen.

Go ahead and fight the fight. Keep us posted.


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## carbide (Nov 21, 2004)

I guess I left the word 'beekeeping' out of my statement. 

"I don't know exactly what you have been doing with your honey, but according to my insurance agent if I do not sell it and simply use it for myself or give it to friends and neighbors then my homeowners policy treats it (beekeeping) as a hobby."

The insurance agent assured me that as long as my beekeeping was a hobby and not a for-profit occupatiion, then the insurance company would be responsible for any damages caused to or created by my bees in my pursuit of my hobby. Similar to owning a couple of dogs that may someday bite someone. This applies to any legal hobby that I want to pursue on my property.

Maybe a simple call to his insurance agent will clarify whether or not his insurance company's homeowner policy is similar.

[ November 08, 2005, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: carbide ]


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

A call to the agent is in order. If an insurance company has an angle to deny coverage in a particular instance, they will.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

An remember there is absolutly no doubt that the bees are visiting her yard. If dogs visit anothers yard the same stink would be raised.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

sundance, for reasons being not defined yet( dogs or bee's) they have to have evidence that it is your dog or bee's that is doing the deed, its all the matter of the court, and if the law lets you keep bee's then a few sting would have to be proved, they have to have evidence that it was your dog or your bee's that did the deed. now this is not a proven plan but I had game birds for years and anytime any dog came to my yard, I had to take pictures of the dog killing a chicken or capture the dog and find it's owner to press charges. so that's why I said what I said, just my .02 cents, but always might be wrong!!


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## Jackbee (Aug 26, 2005)

Reading this thread is somewhat like going to school. Too bad lawyers are not represented, to really screw up the works .

Personally, I would do nothing and let the chips fall where they may, if, the Chief is within his legal rights concerning the keeping of bees where he resides and owns property.

With all the advice, ideas, tips, hints, given here, a persons should be informed enough to mount a credible defense in a court of law, should the percieved problem reach that point. I, would look forward to the challenge. 

Not knowing the rental market in Chief's area I don't know if the landlord is worried about losing his tenant, but, personally, owning rental property, there are times when the loss of a tenant is considered " good riddance ". Just maybe " Dong " will come to see the light. 
" Dong " sounds Vietnamese, or is it the other " dong ".


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Stupidty should be painful.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Thankfully, poor spelling is not.


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## daniel G. (Feb 24, 2005)

One thing I need to ask the chef. Do you have signs and a fence around your bees? When I got started I asked the insurance company about the bees being a problam to neighbors. I asked my lawyer also. They suggested putting up signs- saying bee yard do not enter, and having a fence would help elleviate the hassle of kids coming into the beehives. This is to protect your butt being an Attractive Nuisance.

I know the neighbors or kids were not in your yard looking at them by what you say. But legally you should have signs up and a fence around it. I am glad I have not had problems with the neighbors and my bees right now. Dan.


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## daniel G. (Feb 24, 2005)

One other thing I may add. I received the same answer from the insurance company about raising bees as a hobby or profit. They said the same thing that if it was a hobby it would be covered under my homeowners insurance if anyone had a claim against me. If it for profit and a business than they would not cover my under homeowners insurance. I would have to take out business insurance.


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## RonS (Dec 28, 2004)

Chief,

Your letter is to the point and not overly emotional. Go with it if you have not already done so. 

As a lawyer, I tire of comments such as Jackbee wrote. We do live in a litigious society as pointed out. Lawyers are the litigants' representative, not the litigant. Litigation developed as a non-violent method to settle disputes, after dueling and blood fueds were outlawed. Your elected representatives passed those laws that you cited in your letter to "Dong." Lawyers are trained to present the client's interests and evidence in the best light and a judge or jury then makes the decision based on the presentation of evidence. Back to the bees, your neighbor would have a very difficult time proving that your bees caused harm. As your bees were in place when the neighbor moved in and in full compliance with the law, they would likewise have a very difficult time proving a diminuation of enjoyment of the rental property.

Chief, it appears that you are well within your legal rights under state law and local ordinance. The issue, it would seem, is your desire to maintain neighborhood harmony. You indicated that the only complaint received was from your immediate neighbor. Disharmony with one neighbor is not disharmony with the neighborhood. Your continued friendship with Dong, however, could alter the balance.

Keep us up on how you manage this problem.

Ron


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## Jackbee (Aug 26, 2005)

And Jackbee tires of comments such as Ron S.

Who incidently has not provided any more useful info that any other, probably laymen, poster. 

" Evidence " presented in the best light? Depends. Some evidence is slicked up to accomodate usually 6 or 12 " peers" who, it has been said, are usually not smart enough to figure a way out of serving on a jury. 

I have used lawyers and I have served on a jury. I am smart enough to figure a way out. But for a murder trial, I feel very strongly that such a serious offense should not be left solely in the hands of " slick " barristers? I served willingly.

Like I said, we need lawyers to muck up the works.

The debate is interesting however.


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## amymcg (Jan 13, 2005)

Any updates on this?


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

Jackbee wrote: Reading this thread is somewhat like going to school. Too bad lawyers are not represented, to really screw up the works .

Jackbee, there are lawyers who post here. the post above by ron seems to be pretty good, without screwing anything up.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

I think lawyers get a bad rap. You want your
dishwasher fixed, you call someone who knows
how to work on them. If you have a legal problem,
you need to call someone who knows how to work
on them. You don't blame repairman for the
basic problem of breaking appliances, do you?

But I disagree with the view offered.
I am a landlord, so I've had to deal with
a number of vague and confusing tenants.

> As your bees were in place when the neighbor 
> moved in and in full compliance with the law, 
> they would likewise have a very difficult time 
> proving a diminuation of enjoyment of the rental 
> property.

The tenant's point would be that they were UNAWARE
of the beehives in close proximity to the house
when they signed the lease, and that hives of bees
are a highly unusual and "inherently risky" feature
for a suburban location.

Given the need for "reasonable disclosure" of
factors that would impact the tenant's expectation
of "quiet enjoyment" of the rented property, and
that the tenant is framing the issue as a
"substandard and dangerous condition", I'd suspect
that the local small-claims court judge would rule
that the tenant was within his rights to break the
lease and move without penalty.

Testimony offered on how harmless the bees
actually are would certainly tend to insure that
the landlord would not be forced to pay damages
for the tenant's "moving expenses", since they
would tend to explain the honest difference of
opinion about the "danger" posed, and the honest
difference of opinion about the need for
disclosure prior to signing the lease.

The beekeeper is being drawn into the middle of
a landlord/tenant dispute, when he is not a party
to any agreement with either. That sucks.
The beekeeper needs no lawyer, as there is no
possible claim against him.

But bottom line, the judge WILL agree that no
one expects to rent a house "right next to
hundreds of thousands of stinging insects".

As a comparison, google "Anchorage cyclotron",
and read about how a 100% HARMLESS TO NEIGHBORS
device cannot be installed in a residential area
simply because everyone involved has a
100% GROUNDLESS fear of this "nuclear particle
accelerator", even though its purpose is to
make isotopes that are injected INTO people
when they have a PET scan, isotopes that
save lots of lives every year, isotopes that
currently must be flown in from elsewhere
(and flown in quickly, before they decay!).

Thus, we find that the mere perception of risk,
if shared among the general (misinformed and
ignorant) public, is just as valid a barrier to
"quiet enjoyment" as a clear and tangible risk
with a definite chance of causing harm.

Yep, beehives are just like cyclotrons!
If you like them, you are a strange person,
and "everyone knows" that they are very very
"dangerous". Never mind the facts.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>I think lawyers get a bad rap. You want your
dishwasher fixed, you call someone who knows
how to work on them. If you have a legal problem,
you need to call someone who knows how to work
on them. You don't blame repairman for the
basic problem of breaking appliances, do you?

It's not that simple Jim. I can choose not to have a dishwasher, or if I do, and I do, I can choose not to have it fixed if it breaks, which it has, and I haven't. It's not so simple if I find myself being sued. I can't choose to ignore the problem as I've succeeded in doing with my broken dishwasher, despite my wife's periodic complaints.

Lawyers perform a number of valuable roles in our society. All kinds of things they're good at doing. I don't mind having them around when I need them, but the fact is, we live in a highly litigious society. Have lawyers contributed to this situation? I believe they have, the situation is clearly in their best (financial) interest. Perhaps it could be argued that they merely responded to a need. Perhaps it could be argued that they contributed to the problem by encouraging people to file suits frivolously. Fear of litigation and/or liability has put doctors out of business, closed company doors, thwarted research, etc., not to mention what actual liability suits have done to people. Some were no doubt justified. Were they all?

Perhaps we should hire lawyers to represent the respective sides of this argument... nah, forget that. I'll concede. I'm not interested enough in winning the debate to pay the exhorbitant fees it would take to win... and Oh Yes Jim... If I paid enough money, I would win









A lawyer friend of mine once told me "There's 2 things you never want to see being made: Hot dogs, and the Law."

George-


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Well Jim, like it or not, the Anchorage cyclotron probably won't be put into the neighborhoods of Anchorage. Members of the Anchorage Assembly are not happy about it and about the fact that the guy who was intent on putting it in his house was less than completely open about it. Municipiality lawmakers are already gearing up to make it illegal.

The guy who wanted to bring it up here and put it into his home was, perhaps, well meaning but apparently at least a little naive. It seems to me it would be more appropriate if one of the 3 major hospitals in Anchorage had it rather than it being in a private residence next door to someone else's private residence. They don't seem interested, so...

A heck of a thing to get upset over down there in Farmageddon about something up here in Anchorage. 

[ December 31, 2005, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> A heck of a thing to get upset over down there 
> in Farmageddon about something up here in 
> Anchorage.

I'm not "upset" in the least, I was using it as
a prime example of exactly the same type of
ignorance and baseless fears that motivate
the neighbors of beekeepers to feel justified
in demanding that the bees "just go away".

If you agree with the mob of peasants that a
citizen and landowner can't start a "home-based
business" that involves stuff YOU don't fully
understand, then don't be too surprised when
the mob turns on YOU, and tells you that your
beehives are also a "threat to the community".


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

In most cities in the U.S. there are zoning laws restricting most "home businesses". It is one thing to do computer programming out of your home; it is another to install industrial equipment in a neighborhood. Would not a cyclotron be classified as industrial equipment? 

>then don't be too surprised when the mob turns on YOU, and tells you that your beehives are also a "threat to the community".

Anchorage has an ordinance specifically allowing for keeping bees within city limits, spelling out the number of hives (currently four) and their location on private property. 









[ December 31, 2005, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Would not a cyclotron be classified as 
> industrial equipment?

Such value judgments would be "in the eye of the
beholder". Here's a tidy diagram of a  cyclotron:

It looks rather like, uhhh... gasp! An <a href="http://www.swienty.com/render_image.asp?src=108610.jpg&size=250&sharpen=2&Quality=90&Interpolation=2" target="_blank">
extractor</a>

The point here is that "you're next" is NOT so
far out of the bounds of credibility. Your 
tolerance for the limitation of someone else's
right to do what they wish in their own backyard
or basement as long as they do not endanger
others in the process is a symptom of the disease
that starts with "mad scientists", and ends with
beekeepers, pidgeon racers, and old guys who like
to make furniture in home woodshops.

When they came for the 5th amendment,
I said nothing because I had nothing to hide.

When they came for the 4th amendment,
I said nothing because I was not a drug dealer.

When they came for the 3rd amendment,
I said nothing because I enjoyed house guests.

When they came for the 2nd amendment,
I said nothing because millitas were obsolete.

When they came for the 1st amendment,
I said nothing because suddenly, I had no right to speak.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Wait a minute! I don't care one way or another if the guy brings up his cyclotron. It's across town and not in my backyard. So, if he's not allowed to bring up his cyclotron we are going to lose 5 of our ammendment rights?


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## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

Dick,

Of course. Every time a mob of peasants influences Municipal decision making, rights outlined in the first five amendments are taken away for a period 7 weeks. Pay attention!


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

As mentioned earlier, none of the three major hospitals in Anchorage seem to have any desire for a cyclotron. The one in question is something Johns Hopkins is just trying to get rid of. They are willing to give it to anyone who will haul it away. The first I heard about some dude wanting to bring a cyclotron to Anchorage was on an NPR broadcast. If it was covered by the local TV/radio news folks or the local newspaper, I missed it, although admittedly I dont follow the newspaper up here very much. Or could the news have been squashed by the government?  

Personally, I think the guy, while perhaps well-meaning, may be a bit of a nut case, but thats just my opinion and its my constituntional right to have an opinion and to express it before its taken away by the cyclotron police.

[ January 01, 2006, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Personally, I think the guy, while perhaps 
> well-meaning, may be a bit of a nut case

Funny how this could be said at any hearing
about a beekeeper where beekeeping was up for
prohibition based upon the ignorant and
misinformed fears of the usual torch and
pitchfork waving peasants.

The description would be used to malign the
beekeeper, just because he keep bees.
No one would bat an eye.
Many would nod knowingly.

And how can someone hurt you with any 
cyclotron small enough to move in a truck?

Only by dropping it on your foot!


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## Jeff (Jun 18, 2004)

So Jim your conclusion is that some one can get hurt by a cyclotron?


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Hey, guys, I want to know about the neighbor, not cyclops, or whatever it is you're talking about.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Thanks Jeff, that is irrefutable proof from Dr. Fischer himself that the thing is a danger!!  

(Jim, bee careful of those feet, you know what always happens)









[ January 01, 2006, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Jim, bee careful of those feet, you know what 
> always happens

Your feet are safe from dropped objects, Dick.

The only thing you have to fear is chronic
athlete's tongue from the many times you put 
your foot in your mouth.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Me?!?!


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

> ...I want to know about the neighbor, not cyclops...


you're right iddee, it's not important to me, i'll drop it....


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

My beef with lawyers bee stuff next paragraph. I have had nothing but problems with lawyers. I have hired them as needed but so far I have settled several legal issues myself by just finding the laws and quoting them to insurance agents(car accidents and lost of my home to fire). The bigger thing I am dealing with now is trying to settle where I fell at work and broke my back 3 YEARS AGO. Their lawyers postponed the case 3 times in court then offered to settle with the state mediators. Since I agreed to try to use the mediator I am now stuck in another loop hole that may take upto another year before we can go to court and it was advised to me from my lawyer to go this route. He is even shocked at the stuff they are doing. They came to the first meeting and asked to get a depistion(spelling) from the doctor that did surgery. Everytime we set a new date since they tell the state they need to get another doctor's depistion. I have been to 14 doctors for different things dealing with my back thanks to the company firing me and me getting put on state medical. I only saw one doctor once for med. refills showing him my file and they had to take his depistion this last time as they start with my current doc after the surgen and he was the next in line. It is stupidity that the law allows them 5 months to get 3 depistions and I was called and informed they are getting another postponement right before Christmas. So many of us have good rights to dislike lawyers.

About the bees, check you insurance ASAP. If you are not properly insured it does give the tentant a foot hold as I have dealt with a simular problem. Lawyers and the parties involved sat down and worked it out quickly. Being under insured or not insured imparts neglegence on your part. This happened to be over a harmless rottwiler(spelling) who from time to time would break his log chain. He had all his shots and tags ect. but the property was a farm with no home on the place. How they had me was his breed. They are guard dogs not farm dogs and since I did not live there I could not catch him before he got out of the 5 acre farm which was fenced. I agreed to remove him and I replaced him with a biting sheep dog with my goats which bit their son when he jumped the fence that was posted no tresspassing and they were liable for his doctor bills. The rott just scared people because of what he was so they got the bad end of that law suit. So make sure the insurance and all other laws are followed then stand your ground. My bees are covered as they are a farm animal as long as my dad claims them as his if something goes wrong. I can put a million hives and still be covered for stings and such but if I get over what is required for pollenation of crops(who determines this I have no idea) though the hives are not covered against damages as they are not listed as the farms product(nursery, goats, cattle are listed on the policy as of now which are low risk). Each policy is different even from the same company for each place dad owns as they were writen at different times and 2 of the properties are side by side. Thank fully the bees are covered on 3 of the 4 plots of land(one is a house lot in the county next to the 50 acre farm and bees are not covered if they are hived). We have to make a stand when our rights are at risk. I know they will have to kill me to take my shotgun and hunting rifles away from me. 

Later John


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## mdotson (Jun 18, 2005)

The empty box trick would work great, even more so the neighbor can see you working the "empty hive" in full protective gear while someone else is videotaping all and zooming in on the totally empty hive. Make sure the camera records the date and time.


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