# Deformed Wing Virus Advice



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I assume "bald headed brood" is uncapped pupae? These could be from them deciding to dispose of drones because it's late in the season, or because they are in a dearth and don't want so many mouths to feed or because they are hygenic bees doing their job.

Are you sure the "shriveled" wings are shriveled and on fuzzy young bees and not worn and frazzled and on old worn out bees?

>Assuming this hive doesn't build up enough to survive the winter, after I've treated for mites would it be OK to combine the surviving bees with another hive?

I probably wouldn't. Maybe they will survive. Maybe they have other problems you don't want to give to your other hive.

>Assuming they're mite-free or nearly so and the DWV symptoms are gone, I would think I could safely do so.

Maybe.

>Should I just kill off this hive now and concentrate on nursing my other hives?

They might survive.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>>I assume "bald headed brood" is uncapped pupae? These could be from them deciding to dispose of drones because it's late in the season, or because they are in a dearth and don't want so many mouths to feed or because they are hygenic bees doing their job.

Yes, uncapped pupae. Some clearly dead, others, not sure- I didn't dig any out.

>>Are you sure the "shriveled" wings are shriveled and on fuzzy young bees and not worn and frazzled and on old worn out bees?

Pretty sure:

http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/pics/dwv1.jpg

Not the greatest picture, but it shows the smaller than normal abdomen, hairs, and stunted wings.

>>Should I just kill off this hive now and concentrate on nursing my other hives?

>They might survive.

They might in deed. I'm going to try, I've got nothing to lose. Given that I'm pretty certain it's DWV and I *know* they have varroa, I'm going to go build myself an OA evaporator and gas `em, but I'm not going to remove and destroy the brood. That would, IMHO, mean the end of this hive- I don't think they'd build back up enough before winter hits.

I'll pull the screened insert this afternoon and do a mite count.

Thanks Michael, as usual, for your calm and rational approach to other people's problems









George-


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## Terri (Apr 14, 2003)

Bald headed brood CAN be caused by the hive moth. You might check fot them, too.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The picture does look shriveled, although I like to look at their back and head for fuzziness.

If you're going to do OA vapor, I'd probably do three treatments a week apart to get the emerging mites.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Thanks Teri, but I'm pretty sure wax moths is one problem I DON'T have right now









Michael- a close up of the bee shows the hairs on the thorax. I'll try to get a better picture.

I'm off to pull my sticky boards.

I just got back from town, I've built an OA evaporator ala Bwrangler's entrance design, and picked up a tub of OA crystals. I'll play with it tonight and I figure I'll gas `em first thing in the morning before the bees are flying. 3 times, a week apart. Check!

Stay tuned,

George-


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Light your smoker and watch the drift. Be sure to stand upwind.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Well, I counted mites. The latest 24 hour natural mite drop for the hive in question was 85 which is not substantially different from previous counts (70, 82, and 75 going back 2 months) BUT lest we be lulled into a false sense of security with any notion that the varroa are being "held in check" it is worth noting also that the colony has A LOT OF MITES and has had A LOT OF MITES for quite some time...

For what it's worth, I did counts on 4 other hives and they ranged from a low (low??) of 65 (hive #22, used to be 18) to a high of >150 (hive #10, used to be 61). It's hard to count 300+ mites without missing some and double counting some, but no matter how you count it, that's a LOT. Whether I've got DWV in a given hive or not is irrelevant given these numbers  

I'm going to go read up some more on gassing hives with OA.

Cheers,

George-


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

>Bald headed brood CAN be caused by the hive moth. You might check for them, too. 

Terri is right!!! George, I wouldn't be too sure that there arent a few wax worm in there. Although I think varroa may be your problem. Bald brood can also be a sign on poor hygienic bees and I have seen this symptom with wax worm in weak or poor hygienic colonies with high mite loads. 

The worm will eat their way thru between the larva and the cappings causing the cap to perforate which are then chewed down by the workers. The bees will not kill them because if they are non hygienic, they cannot detect them. This uncapping can fool some into thinking there bees are hygienic when they are in fact not. This is why it can occasionally take wax worm very little time to destroy a colony that has absconded from varroa. 

http://www.csl.gov.uk/science/organ/environ/bee/diseases/minordisorders/minordisorders.cfm?CFID=1379450&CFTOKEN=84430621#baldbrood 

There is a test to detect waxworm in brood that will sometimes work. If you shake the bees off of the frame with the uncapped brood. Hold the frame over a hive roof and tap wooden frame on the side with your hive tool. In less than a minute, a wax worm may crawl out onto the surface of the comb, or drop off the bottom of the comb onto the roof.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

The virus itself is usually considered incidental. I recently read the something like 97% of bees carry it. As for waxmoths, the above all sounds like good beekeeping practice to me. Nobody throw any tomatos at me, but I think that Apistan for the whole apiary would be appropriate if your looking to overwinter this particular hive.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I think that Apistan for the whole apiary would be appropriate if your looking to overwinter this particular hive

Why? First, Apistan doesn't work here at all according to all the entemologists and the beekeepers in the area (I don't know about there). I think the OA is much more effective and much less contaminating.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

George,you have dwv and way too many mites( as you realize).In Ca. those 24 hour drops would mean the hives are in BIG trouble with pms and dwv.I just looked at some today that were treated earlier with the sucrocide spray down method-they ainta gonna make it( dwv and pms).I agree that they should all be treated and even then it may not work.But worth a shot.Many have had the same experience with fgmo.Its ineffective with hives that are subject to the kind of varroa pressure we get here.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

By all accounts Apistan isn't working anymore around here- and I've heard similar reports from other places around the country. Nobody around here uses it anymore- the same with Checkmite. That said, I wouldn't use it if I could. At least I don't think I would. I don't want those kinds of chemicals in my hives.

I'm going to use OA gas right now- today. I may try the drip method later this fall if necessary but I'm hoping it won't. OA drip is the unofficial, unapproved unmethod of choice around here. I'll treat all my hives starting with the most heavily infested. I have 8 or 10 with very few mites but those will get gassed too.

With all due respect to terri and naturebee, I am certain it (the baldheaded brood) is NOT due to wax moth. I know what wax moth damage looks like and I have nothing but the utmost respect for their ability to trash hives, and I've found the occassional worm in the past, but the bees have kept them in check. I have mites. They will kill my hives if I don't do something. I'll take care of the mites and the bees will take care of the wax moths and the occassional small hive beetle that I had especially imported from down south.. at considerable expense I might add









From what I've read, dwv IS somewhat incidental to mite infestation and is present at low levels in most bees, much like the AFB. The mites ARE a distinct vector however- they carry it and can spread it and hives weakened by mite pressure become more susceptable to it- and other things as well. By all accounts, if you can control the mites, the associated diseases and problems that go with mites will clear up.

Well, wish me luck. As people around here like to say, here goes nothin









George-


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

A comparision of sorts.

A person who keeps in shape, eats the right foods, gets good sleep, and for the most part is healthier than average person will occasionally get the sniffles, the flu, and other sicknesses. But...

The person who takes no precautions about being healthy, is overwight, smokes, and generally is unhealthy in thier everyday health habits, on average will get more colds, be sick more often, and generally be in worse shape to deal with sicknesses.

Does this mean the healthy person never gets sick? No. Does this mean the unhealthy person will always gets sick? No.

The hive is the same for the most part. Will a hive that has low mite counts sometimes display viral (DFW) occasionally? Yes. But a hive with a high infestation will display the DFW virus more often. The higher the mite load, the higher the display of DFW. There is a relationship. And the DFW is one of the easiest ways to notice a high mite load if you are not doing mite counts, which you should be doing.

On average, the healthier the hive is by management techniques, genetic advantages, and the beekeepers persistant care, the lower the rate of viral and secondary deseases. Yes, most bees have the DFW virus. The DFW is triggered by stress, mite loads becoming overwhelming, and perhaps other trigger mechanisms that are being researched. Its kind of like the cold virus for us. Why does one get the cold and other family members do not? If tested, all have come in contact with the cold virus, but some show no signs of it. The hive is about the same.

That being said, keeping the mite counts down, eliminating other stress factors on the hive, and keeping the healthiest hives possible will minimize virus outbreaks like DFW.

A simple pettis test can determine if your mites will be controlled with checkmite or apistan. I always laugh when someone says that 15 years ago the mites were resistant. It probably is not true now. Except for some places like Californa, and bigger commercial operators who overuse the strips, the strips for the most part still work. For the average beekeeper who has resistant mites, one of two items has happened. Either the repeated use of the same type strips year after year, or the misuse of the strips by leaving them in all winter.

I would also venture to say that for some, viral and bacterial issues from the mite loads (that were handled by the strips), actually killed hives after treatments were applied. This due to treatments being too late for the bees to recover and raise healthy brood for winter. And of course the first claim is the strips did not work. I also wonder how many of these hives would of died regardless of the treatment due to other factors other than the treatment base.

Mite-away is very effective for those who want to treat without using strips. I do not think its practical for large numbers. Sucricide is also good, but is labor intensive. Again, for a few hives its worth it. Other mite treatments are available and are effective is used properly.

Some are actually finding that Terramyacin is effective for suppression of mite viral/bacterial concerns. Not to many want to research it or promote it, but I am finding some who say they have healthier hives due to the use of it. Some say that DWF is suppressed, or at least perhaps a secondary factor which is the trigger mechanism is suppressed, which keeps the DWF in check. This creates a concern with resistant AFB, but if all beekeepers would just burn ALL AFB found hives, resistant AFB would not be found.

Of course there are some who would say, why treat at all? If you have a particular hive that is not hygenic or SMR in nature, let them die. Many are having good success with different lines of bees. My personal goal is to have a bee line with less than 20% winter kill without any treatments. This however does mean in allowing a number of hives to die or be "culled" out by mother nature. As with any farm crop, not all chickens, cows, etc, will be winners. You should not expect every hive to be a winner, or be perfect. Thats just nature.

Getting the same old standard line of mass produced bees from breeders doing nothing for selection and resistant breeding would be the last thing I do. There are some good breeders who are doing good things. Start with a better than average line of bees. Everything else will feed off of that. And make everything a little bit better.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://entomology.unl.edu/beekpg/tidings/btid2004/btdmar2004.htm

"The Varroa mite seems to pose a never ending challenge to beekeepers, however several new strategies have become available, and some old ones are beginning to fail. The most widely used strategy is chemical control. In 1999, widespread resistance to Apistan was found in Nebraska. Apiaries and resistance continues to limit the usefulness of Apistan. In 2002, resistance to Checkmite+ was found in Maine and Florida. To date, Checkmite+ resistance has not been found in Nebraska, but the occurrence in other regions suggest that, like Apistan, it may have a limited useful life." Dr. Marion D. Ellis March 2004


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

1) "Resistance" simply means that the substance has a lower efficacy than it had previously
2) Resisistance is only a selective advantage if the substance in question is being used frequently and therefor continues to exert a selection pressure on the organism in question
3) Consider the epidemiology of varroa. Resistance is not likely to be statewide, but rather to exist in varrigated patches
4) It is easy to test if Apistan will be effective in your apiary
5) When used as an appropriate part of a well managed IPM program, Apistan is not considered a threat to either human or bee health (according the the EPA and the USDA)
6) I said "if" Such a colony would like be destroyed or at least shaken out in my apiary.


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## merops_apiaster (Jul 16, 2005)

Mr. Fergusson.
What about the queen? A new dinasty is required.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Mr. Fergusson.
>What about the queen? A new dinasty is required.

In deed. I have one maturing in a nuc, I was going to use it elsewhere but may, if I can bring the mites under control, introduce her to this hive.

In all honesty, I have need of more queens than time or my pocket book will allow.

George-


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Hi George,
Sorry about your hives.
Researcher Jennifer Berry. U of Tenn, did a study on when to treat for mites. No point to it if you had too few (commercially). The threshold she came up with was 50 mites in a daily drop. If that hive isn't treated it will crash. I went through what you did with the FGMO. Never used sugar. Seems like the mistake was back in July when you had over 50 mites and didn't treat. I too hate the chemicals and have lost a lot of bees in the winter. I've never used apistan or checkmite+. I just got in from doing the last O/A fumigation. This year I did 3 or 4 hives with sucricide right along side of the others as a test. I'll let you all know the results.

O/A doesn't kill brood. You can do it with the supers on and it isn't temperature sensitive. Ditto Sucricide.

One hive dropped so many mites that I wouldn't stop to count them. I was too late with my test, about a month ago. And it was hands-down the most powerful hive I had (of 20). I treated them anyway. I think by the time you see DWV it's possibly too late. Good luck. Let us know how it works out.

Dickm


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Hi George,
>Sorry about your hives.

Hi Dick, Thanks. Such is life, and apparently, beekeeping. I take some solace in knowing that I mean well and I'm not alone.

I agree, I should have started OA earlier, but I chose to use FGMO. It might have helped keep the mite populations from exploding for a while, but that is it. Perhaps with a smaller mite load FGMO as a routine treatment would be useful, but frankly, I'm trying to get away from anything "routine" in terms of treatments or managment practices.

I hope your experiments with Sucrocide de are successful- I've heard some people have been less than satisfied with it, but I suppose that is the way it is with ANY treatment. Mileage may vary. I know of one large (400+ hives) beekeeper that used Sucrocide this summer- I haven't talked to him yet.

<RANT>

I have no intention of trying Apistan or Checkmite, or any of the other "traditional" chemicals. I don't believe in them, I firmly believe the chemical approach to beekeeping is a Dead End. I laugh when I hear people say "it's completely safe" etc., etc., as if they know. They don't know! They're quoting someone else who *thinks* they know, but they don't really know either. Tolerances to chemicals and socalled "safe" levels of pesticides are continually being lowered. First it was Parts per thousand.. then parts per million.. then oops!! Parts per billion.. Give me a break. The chemical mindset scares me.

I remember the DDT fiasco when I was a kid. I remember reading "Silent Spring" by Rachel Carson. As a small child I remember seeing a family of Bald Eagles fail to raise babies year after year until they stopped coming back and their huge nest rotted and fell to the ground.

The State of Maine has sent around notices that people should not eat more than 2 fish per year from Clary Lake due to mercury contamination. I live on Clary Lake. I used to fish and for years I used to eat the fish, and when I was really really poor back in the 80's I ate fish 7 days a week.

Let's see... then there's Nuclear Power! What's a safe dose of ionizing radiation? Gee. 30 years ago they measured it in REMs.. now they know that there is NO SAFE DOSE of ionizing radiation.

If I lose my bees, I lose my bees. I'll get more bees. I'll strive to attain chemical-free beekeeping. Others are doing it. I'll do it.

</RANT>

Thanks, I feel much better!

I hope the Oxalic Acid kicks Varroa Butt. Here's a picture of my setup this morning:

http://www.sweettimeapiary.com/pics/gassing.jpg

You can see my respirator sitting in the tool box; my wife's kitchen timer; my "The Onion" (www.theonion.com) teeshirt used to plug up the entrance, my smoker to see wind direction, my jar of OA, and my evaporator hanging out of the front of the hive like a... ah... umm.. well never mind.

I stopped at the hardware store on my way home from work today and bought another $7 worth of brass fittings so I can build a second evaporator. I see no reason why I can't treat 2 hives at a time. I treated 3 hives this morning before the bees got too busy. I'm going up again after supper and gas some more.

George-


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I remember the DDT fiasco when I was a kid.

So do I. It was "perfectly safe" too.

>I stopped at the hardware store on my way home from work today and bought another $7 worth of brass fittings so I can build a second evaporator. I see no reason why I can't treat 2 hives at a time.

I have two also. Less waiting.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

>I have two also. Less waiting.

Mike, I thought your small cell and don't need to treat your hives?


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Just got back from my apiary, I managed to treat 6 hives in a little over an hour using 2 evaporators. It's a beautiful evening- warm, a quarter moon- It was still light when I went up, but it was dark soon. I was able to work by moonlight most of the time, only turning on my flashlight to recharge the evaporators and check the timer.

Managed to get stung once, on my wrist and even in the dark there was an occassional bee bumping into my veil. I was surprised- I've walked through my yard at night, but I've never worked the bees at night. I think they'd just as soon be left alone but IMHO evening/dark is a fine time to gas the girls. A lot less flying going on- this morning, I torched a few dozen bees by accident. That was unpleasant. I'm thinking of a screen shield of some sort to keep the bees away from the propane torch flame.

Bjornbee, thanks for your contribution. I agree with most everything you say- except the use of chemicals part







I particularly like "Start with a better than average line of bees. Everything else will feed off of that. And make everything a little bit better." Most of my bees belonged to a migratory beekeeper and have had their share of chemicals. I think they're basically good bees. They're what I got to work with and I'm going to do my best to carry on. Time will tell.

Cheers,

George-


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Here I was under the impression that oxalic acid was a chemical......I guess some of us think that it is perfectly safe at the level we use it.....but hey, its "natural" to fumigate a hive with pure substances design for use as wood bleachers and lamp oil. Obviously nobody here would want floride in their water, iodated salt, or polymer motorcycle helmets. Well, at least we have good old natural malaria and tobacco products.

<.. now they know that there is NO SAFE DOSE of ionizing radiation>

Tell that to the sun.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Naturebee, I know your question was addressed to Michael, but I thought I'd take it personally! I certainly expect to be asked that same question sometime, so here's MY first pass at an explanation









I'm a realist and while I expect one day to have treatment-free bees through the use of small cell, good breeding (hygenic, mite-tolerant, etc.), clean chemical-free environment, etc., I also expect to have a LOT of bees and I expect to get some bees that need treatments of one sort or another to get "over the hump" so to speak. I also expect to lose some bees that just can't cut the mustard. I respect my bee's right to die. I respect their right to life as well.

So, I'm opposed to treatments in general but I see no reason to lose bees on principle, especially if they could be saved with some tender loving care. There is also an economic element for me. I'm just not financially in a position to let bees die that could be saved- especially if I'm going to meet my growth goals. For these and other reasons I expect I'll keep my oxalic acid handy and my drum of white sugar in the wood shed. In case I need them.

Thanks for joining in the exchange,

George-


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>>Here I was under the impression that oxalic acid was a chemical......

No good defense there Aspera, As a chemical user, you have every right to be indignant.

I don't see a problem! Life is full of contradictions and choices. I personally see nothing wrong with that and in fact, I'm perfectly happy living in a world of contradictions and choices. My life is a series of contradictions and choices. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Sure, OA is a chemical, and using it is a treatment- both of which I've gone on record as being against. Call me a hipocrite already and be done with it! Or, cut me some slack already, you were the one who suggested I use Apistan! Can't I be against chemicals and still use a select few of them? To keep my bees alive? Can't I hate politicians and still vote? Can't I detest insurance companies and carry my insurance card in my wallet? Can't I whine about hypocrites and be one myself?

Finally, OA is one of those crack-pot treatments like FGMO and Powdered Sugar though it (OA) is gaining respect and considerable interest in the starched-shirt corporate world of commercial beekeeping as discussed over on BEE-L where anyone with less than 500 hives is a "sideliner" and everyone with less than 100 is a "hobbyist" or worse yet, an "amateur" with no appreciation or understanding of "scientific method". I love that list! OA has almost become respectable as opposed to being something used only by extremist fanatic hobbyist amateur beekeepers.

>><.. now they know that there is NO SAFE DOSE of ionizing radiation>

>>Tell that to the sun. 

Buy stock in sun screen. That's my advice.

Time for bed. I gotta get up early to treat my bees 

George-


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Mike, I thought your small cell and don't need to treat your hives? 

I have treated while regressing. I still have all the OA equipment and the FGMO fogger. I have not been using them.

The small cell ferals are doing fine and I don't plan to treat them at all. As of this spring I had all my hives on small cell. Then I "inherited" a bunch of Italians in deep boxes on large cell this year. I've requeened them all with the ferals and I don't know yet if they will need treating but it would surprise me if they don't have a lot of mites. I barely got started regressing them. There's a lot of large cell comb still in all of them and only a little bit of small cell. I didn't have any deep small cell combs to give them. I will try to cut them all down to mediums in the spring and then I should have enough small cell comb to get them regressed. I also have one hive of Cordovans in town that is on small cell, but is showing some mite stress. It's the first time I've seen that on small cell with any breed. I requeened it with one of the feral survivor queens and we will see if that is enough to clear it up by fall. If not I may have to treat them to save them. As pretty as the Cordovans are, I have not been impressed with their constitution.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Bjorn, many excellent points. Your recent post have been top shelf. 
We used apistan very successfully this spring. We don't have a problem with resistance because we rotate our treatments. We've used Formic Acid as an alternative for years. We also painted our hives darker colors to slightly increase the hive temps, eliminated those huge old drone combs, as well as using tobacco (sparingly) in our smoker to kill mites. Do I have some hives at the end of the season with mite problems, you bet! It's easy to say " I don't treat" if you have a thousand or so invested in you bees and live in an area that hasn't had an outbreak of foulbrood (yet) or bees are spaced far enough apart to not face every element that comes down the pike. I'm happy for all those who do no treatments. It is unfortunate that some by implication point the long bony finger of indignation at those who do. When disease or pestulance knocks on their door it will mean little to say my hives are dead and empty but hey, I never treated, my bet is they will. NO bees are bulletproof nor are anyone's managment techniques. Some have been careful,fortunate and in many cases isolated. Beekeeping defies natures rule of population in a given area. Disease and pests are the natural occurance for population control. With over 40 G's in equipment, being dependant on the income and not having the luxury of spending 15 or 20 minutes a week with each hive my choices are different. I work dillegently toward the ideal and get closer every year. Being on this post has supported those goals, my thanks for this. I know treatments in the long run will not out weigh the threat. For now I will use what is necessary (and safe) to help maintain bees in this un-natural, square, overpopulated environment we keep them with no shame. In the end, successful agriculture (one out of every three bites of food you eat) and the successful future of beekeeping depend on the survival of those outside the hobby arena. Not without treaments, not today, maybe not in my lifetime!


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Hi Joel-

I agree with much of what you say and I applaud you for taking the "less treatments is better" approach in your business and I wish more commercial beekeepers felt the same way, but I also see some contradictions in what you say, and some inherent issues that we all must ultimately face whether we're hobbyists, amateurs, or commercial beekeepers. The biggest (and for me, the scariest) issues are contained in your last statement:

"successful agriculture (one out of every three bites of food you eat) and the successful future of beekeeping depend on the survival of those outside the hobby arena."

First, how do you reconcile the above position with your previous statement "I know treatments in the long run will not out weigh the threat."? Are we- beekeepers and consumers alike- doomed? If agriculture (or beekeeping) as we know it depends on management practices destined ultimately to fail, the question seems to be not where we're going, but rather how long before we get there. Personally I have little faith in the prevailing opinion that "science will find a way" which is used to justify questionable management and business practices. These "head in the sand" attitudes held by many commerical beekeepers bother me most of all.

Second, I do not believe that "the successful future of beekeeping depend on the survival of those outside the hobby arena." Not for a second. I wish I could believe it, but how can we, and why should we, depend on people whose short term economic goals dictate their managment practices and business decisions? Perhaps the successful future of beekeeping in fact depends on management practices and techniques developed by beekeepers who do NOT depend on their bees for income and who are NOT in cahoots with chemical companies. Who knows. Where will the next breakthrough in beekeeping come from? I don't expect it traditional research facilities, nor from commerical beekeepers hell bent for election to pay their bills and keep their bees alive long enough for one more trip to the California almond groves!

Third and lastly, agriculture as currently practiced faces a lot of problems, perhaps the least of which is pollination. Pollination is important of course and I'm not trying to diminish the importance of beekeeping to agriculture, but they (farmers) are pretty much in the same boat as beekeepers are: They're making business and management decisions based on short term economic considerations, many of their practices are questionable if not downright unsustainable, and they're entirely too dependent on chemicals, even more so than beekeeping.

You can no more say that successful agriculture depends on beekeepers than you can say it the other way around. We're all in the same boat and we depend on each other.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts. Help me understand and come to terms with what we're doing and where we're going because from where I stand, the future looks bleak.

Regards,

George-


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Thanks for the comment joel.

The thing with discussions of chemicals, and strips in particular, is the perceptions and personal bias. I think all would or could agree that minimizing chemicals such as apistan and checkmite is good for the bees, beekeeper, and industry in general. 

With that said, I also know that many will use them out of ignorance, out of need, out of habit, or out of past success with the product. I do not promote chemicals for those who could easily use other effective products and options. (And thats is not "everyone" as much as anyone would like to think that.)

I would like to inform and possibly help those who do use the strips to do it properly. The rotation of chemicals, the understanding of how resistance is increased, the effects of over-exposure, and the need to possible treat with other options. I would rather be open and help those who choose this chemical approach, which is the norm, regardless of how many on beesource deny this. Open discussion on chemical use is always scorned and glossed over by those who do not use chemicals. Do people need to hear that chemicals are bad, I don't know. I think the average person realizes this. I also want them to hear about the proper use of chemicals, and the possible consequences of improper use.

Everyone is not going to switch to smallcell. Everyone is not going to carry a fogger. Everyone is not going to keep bees the same as anyone on beesource. But does that mean that the discussion of the use of chemicals should be ignored or put down in some manner. I guess for some, the answewr would be yes, while they privately stick thier chest out. I would rather not judge, but rather educate on whatever the option each beekeeper chooses.

I had to laugh last week, when I was talking to someone about the use of FGMO. He said he fogged about every three weeks. My discussion was not centered on my own opinion of FGMO, but rather directing him to Beesource, so proper use and information could be obtained. His success or failure with the product could very well be different than my own experience. But the main point was that if he was going to use this option, than the proper use is what was important. I see chemicals the same way. By helping those who use them, use them properly.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I have 20 hives and just finished treating them with O/A and Sucricide. some with one, some with the other. It took 2 sessions, I did 3 treatments, and I had help. As I was doing it I thought that no commercial guy would use either one because it's too labor intensive. As a contribution to the industry AS IT IS they won't work. Change may occur if there is nothing else. At that time the hobbyists may be ahead of the curve.
>>>OA is one of those crack-pot treatments <<<<
George,
I hope you didn't mean this. I and many others have had good luck with it. Not so for FGMO.

Another reason to stay with softer treatments is that it is thought that the chemical residues in the wax promote poor queens and drones. This isn't mentioned a lot.

Dick Marron


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>>>>OA is one of those crack-pot treatments <<<<
>>George,
>>I hope you didn't mean this. I and many others have had good luck with it. Not so for FGMO.

Good heavens no Dick. I certainly don't think so, and it's gaining wide spread acceptance and seeing wide spread use- now. I probably shouldn't have used that term to describe something I'm desperately hoping will solve my mite problem









OA is one of those treatments that a lot of people were using but they didn't want to talk about it. That's changing, big time. It is still not approved as a mite treatment by whomever approves such things, most likely because nobody can make any money selling it as a miticide- no financial incentive there for the chemical companies and the research laboratories that are in their pockets. Or so I've heard.

There was a time not too long ago when oxalic acid was considered a good way to kill your mites AND your bees. It was met initially with skepticism on BEE-L where it was first mentioned back in 1997. Then again, most things are initially met with skepticism on BEE-L







Most of the research on OA has been done in other countries- not the US.

George-


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>Here I was under the impression that oxalic acid was a chemical......

I was under the impression that water was a chemical too. And nectar is a whole lot of chemicals...

It's a little more active than water...


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

George,

You appear to have made at least one incorrect assumption about how I manage my bees. I would wager that few on this web site have put as much effort into the producing disease resistant stock as I have (SMR crossed onto russian drones, glenn apiaries) on SBB with brood cycle breaks. Furthermore, you prove my argument precisely. No chemical is inherently bad, nor is any inherently good. Paracelsius stated (quite a long time ago) "All substances are poisons for there are none without poisonous properties. The difference between a a toxin and a non-toxin is merely a matter of dose." Don't believe me? Google water toxicosis. Granted, the potential for misuse of a pyrethrin is higher that that of OA, but then again, so is its efficacy.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>>You appear to have made at least one incorrect assumption about how I manage my bees.

I make a lot of incorrect assumptions. If I don't catch them, other people usually do. I did assume you were essentially pro-chemical or else why would you have suggested I use Apistan? Oil well, my apologies. Glad to hear you're taking an active stance on developing disease resistant bees.

George-


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

BjornBee,
As a hobbiest that has decided to quite using the Pyrethins completely, I agree with your post completely. I have been learning and enjoying many other recent posts of yours too. Beekeepers are going to use the hard chems., so educate them about them. When I used them I didn't do it correctly at first. With the proper information I would have. Now with even more treatments education, I see some alternatives are working well. Useing Apilife this year.

There is alot of research on OA comming from Europe. The US needs to get on board with this treatment and do some research here. Looks like a good candidate for some grad student research to me. Many people are having success with it, but actual reaserch in US beeks local, will HOPEFULLY show people it works whom are afraid of risking big cash on it. Getting it approved may be one thing, but there is no shortage of research being done on things that won't make any money.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I was working doors for a larger operation and noticed shop towels, soy bean oil, and Mavrick together in the corner. Wonder why?


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Would much rather see a big bucket of wood bleach in the corner. 
There is a guy around here that appears to keeps his honey supers on year round. Makes me wonder what he is treating mites with that allows him to not have to remove his supers?


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

MichaelW,

Kinda makes ya feel bad for those still buying supermarket honey, don't it? Before the milk pricing system changed, I once saw a dairyman point to a gardenhose and say "that one is my best milker." I wish I could say that beekeeping is different but there will always be a few irresponsible people who jepardize the health and livelyhood of the whole. Well, I'll get off my soap box now....


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Cornell's master beekeeping program teaches people to store their unused empty equipment under their active hive bodies. Went to help a newbie friend who took the course (last year) this spring, what a mess!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Cornell's master beekeeping program teaches people to store their unused empty equipment under their active hive bodies. Went to help a newbie friend who took the course (last year) this spring, what a mess!

Makes you wonder if the people teaching it have ever kept bees.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Under the active hive bodies? I have never heard of the method and agree with the others . 

I personally never liked the idea of leaving extra supers on the bees year around for a couple reason but a common hobby beekeeper method in our area.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Update: I've just finished my second OA gassing and have discovered similarly disfigured bees in 3 other hives, all of which have comparable mite counts as the original. One bee with disfigured wings was walking around on a frame with emerging brood and had a mite on it. It had probably just recently emerged. Sigh. It was pathetic.

Most of my hives aren't as bad off as these with symptoms of DWV. Hopefully the OA will do the trick. I'll be doing more mite drop tests next week after the third OA treatment.

George-


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## franc (Jan 7, 2003)

You might want to try and use some TM patties or TM mixed with powder sugar along with the OA.


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Nice picture of your apiary George, I see that we both share a common problem with landscape, the only level place I have was made with a bulldozer.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Georg,
I just gassed 3 times and did counts after a week. The worst were still dropping 150 mites a day, way over the threshold I'd consider safe. I gave them another shot of O/A today. This is the 4th treatment. In the middle of a bunch of high mite carnies, I have an italian swarm that has no mites. I have 3 others in a different yard from the same strain with the same counts.

The answer has to be in the bees.

Dickm


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

I spent some quality time with my OA evaporator the other day- I should have done it sooner. As a result of my tests and observations I've made some modifications.

The first thing I realized is that OA vaporizes rather easily, and recondenses just as easily. A lot of the OA was condensing inside the evaporator itself and the 3/8" tube I stuck in the entrance; it would virtually plug up and would periodically spit out a blob of OA. Not what you want.

I modified the unit by shortening the tubing to about 5" and using a couple of short blocks of wood with 3/8" holes in them to hold it on the bottom board- with the help of a brick. The blocks of wood can be adjusted to fit on the variable-width (don't ask) of my landing board. There is now no tubing actually inside the hive.

The second change I made after testing and timing is in the way I heat the unit. Before I was just heating the bejeezus out of the cap/resevoir on the end, but now I'm gently heating the entire unit. After about 2 minutes it starts to vaporize (I can see it smoking through cracks at the entrance) and then I concentrate the heat on the cap proper. It really generates a lot of smoke in a short period of time. After 3 minutes, it's pretty much done.

Before, when I looked inside the unit, there was a lot of OA precipitated on the inside up near the elbow and in the tube. Now there isn't any- it all disapears in the form of smoke, into the hive. There's a little condensed around the outlet proper, but not anywhere near as much as before.

If you haven't done so, I highly recommend thoroughly testing your own setups OUTSIDE the hive to gain an understanding of how the unit operates, how best to heat it, and what you might do to change the efficiency. For example, I noticed with the shorter pipe, if I heated the resevoir end too quickly, the OA liquified and spit out the end- NOT what you want.

Gentle heating of as much or all of the evaporator is what you want (and careful reading of Bwrangler's web page says just this). I've already given my hives 2 treatments, a week apart. I'm starting over.

My pea-brain is also chewing on additional mods and a new design to make OA vaporizing simpler (I got some on me!), safer (what's that smell!) and more effective (where the mites?).

George-


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>>Nice picture of your apiary George, I see that we both share a common problem with landscape, the only level place I have was made with a bulldozer.

Well PN, I have flatter areas, but not better areas. Initially I was going to put my hives further out in the field where it is essentially flat and I started some platforms there, but a beekeeper with 38 years of experience in the state of Maine looked it over and told me to move `em up into the corner where it's more protected from the north and west and the late winter and early spring sun first melts the snow.

It was less convenient building on a slope, but I like the tiered effect... and the hives are in the shade in the late afternoon which makes them more comfortable to work.

George-


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Georg,
I use the battery powered job. I get enough of a whiff of it once in awhile that I can't imagine hanging next to the hive to heat it.

Dickm


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