# bad cover design on my part.



## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I have no bees yet.

I built a sorta long lang configuration and when out to put some lemon grass oil in it today (might get lucky). I noticed the plywood cover has a bit of warping and that the hive could never be defended by the bees from robbers. 

I am trying to figure what I want to do about it.

I built it just as I did my medium lang hives and used lang frames in it and not just top bars. Due to this there is a 1/4 inch gap between each bar on top. 

My ideal is to make either some solid bars on top of the lang frames I am using that I can lay the cover on.

The pros of that ideal would be I would be more like a top bar hive then now and could open small portions of the hive at a time. Also if the bee space on top of the frames is wrong I could deal with it one at a time.

The other ideal is to put three inner covers on and put the cover over that.

I like this but cause I could feed sugar on them but don't like it cause the holes in the inner cover would still allow bees to come in from everywhere.

I kind of knew this could be a problim but I had put a couple of sticks of fire wood on the lid and had hoped that would midigate the issues with a 4.5 foot peice of plywood. Apparently I was wrong.

Any Ideals
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

pictures









I don't know if anything can be seen her or not but it give an ideal of what I am talking about.
Thanks
gww


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

ya that is the tricky part of making a long lang. you need to split up the covers to keep them from warping and making gaps. 

a few solutions with a quick search. one from Beesource - MattDavey










this one looks like 3 migratory covers in a row from Michael Bush's page


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Ignore this.


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

You could put a 1x4 collar all the way around the top and then use 1x6 or 1x8 pieces on top of the bars to close in the space above your current bars. Drill holes in the front so that they have a defendable entrance. Hope this helps. I am sure others will have more ideas.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Jake, nice pictures.

Shannon
Thanks for the thought.

Eric, Your response does bring up one other question. My cover overhangs by an inch or two in all areas. It is hard to see but I have 3/8 of an inch on the front of the hive cut lower and the front frame is spaced back 3/8 of an inch and this is my enterance. I had a peice of 3/8 inch board that I slid in to reduce the opening but don't see it in the picture so maby I knocked it out. Are the bees going to use this entrance with the cover over hang? Will they fly under the cover to the entrance?

The boards around the edge might be cheapest but it would sure make it harder to take the cover on and off. Boards under the cover might help insulation. I wonder if the bees would tear up peices of foam if it was under the cover? 

Thanks
gww

PS I am guessing by the pictures that a bit of rain getting in is not the end of the world.


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## jbraun (Nov 13, 2013)

You could rip a 2x4 and screw it on top of that cover on both sides, maybe on the ends also. That should straighten the warp out of your cover. Shouldn't add to much weight to the top. If you do that you have a place to screw two hinges and then you don't need to worry about the tops weight at all. A screen door latch on the other side and you don't need to worry about the wind blowing the top off. I'd suggest you add 1xs to the ends to close up your gap. That amount of space would be undefendable by a new hive. If you put one on from each direction you can create your entry hole there or go the full width and drill a hole. 

Water inside of the hive would be like water in your house. A bit of rain will be a problem. When you are done you'll want to paint this with outdoor paint.

I've never done a long lang but I like your work so far.


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

All of my roofes have a healthy overhang of 2-4 inches on all sides with a down leg of 4 inches to form a telescoping cover. The west coast is a rain forest and I like to keep as much rain as possible out of the hive. You don't want to have any spaces robber bees or wasps to penetrate the defends forces of the hive. If you read other people's reports, over time excessive entrances spell disaster. You can do things any way you like, but each decision will have pros and cons.

Forgot add that I also paint all lies with a primer coat and then 2 coats of elastomeric paint far paper sits above the bars and rigid insulation between the tar paper and the lid. R value of wood is very low


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I can't tell, but it looks like you may not have any bee space above the bars. The long hive designs I have seen look like a long Lang and have something for an inner cover as well as an outer cover. Something like this:
http://www.beebehavior.com/modified_european_long_hive.php


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Jayb
You are the closest guy yet at about 40 miles away from me. 

I like the 2x4 suggestion. I don't think the ends are that bad and the one end I made that way on purpose and have a shim I slip in to make the entance any size I wan't. The long sides are wavy though. I might paint the added 2x4 but some of this other wood I used might already be 100 years old. Probly oak. I am starting to think that finding some way to only open part of the hive at a time might be good. It would take lots more wood though.

I like the hinge ideal fairly well. I was trying to be as simple as posible cause that is suppose to be why these are so easy to build. Mine was easier then the langs but could become complicated due to poor planning on my part.

I will be honest. I have never, to this day, seen a hive of any kind in person except what I have built.

Adding the 2x4 seems easiest. Just adding boards on top under the cover might make working the hive easier and ad a bit of insulation but would be board expensive and I would have to come up with some. I have never worked bees. What is it worth to not have to expose the whole hive at once?

Thank you 
gww


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

shannonswyatt said:


> I can't tell, but it looks like you may not have any bee space above the bars. The long hive designs I have seen look like a long Lang and have something for an inner cover as well as an outer cover. Something like this:
> http://www.beebehavior.com/modified_european_long_hive.php


Didn't catch that the first time.. good eyes. 

GWW, you need a space between the top of the frames and the cover of whatever you choose. For the bees to be over the frames and so you don't smash 100s at a time when you put the roof back on.

I don't think that having one board is great because they will use any hole as an entrance and will leave it open to robbers, moths etc. I think a "multistage" roof with a 1/2" ? shim around the outside of your hive edges to add the space. 

this is my lang but same theory.. top of the box.. then a shim.. then a flat roof


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

eric
I built everything with reclaimed wood except the legs legs and plywood which was left over stuff from other things. I think these where some long wagon racks. I figured the cover was weather proofing them better then the rest of there life had. I am a bit of a cheep skate and am trying to get buy on a dime.

I have no insulation plans at this time though I am keeping my ears open. I imagine canada is very cold compared to here. It does get cold here though. The long hive is differrent also cause it at this time has no inner cover and there for no air pocket. I am still working it out in my mind.


shannon
You are correct, there is no bee space above the frames currently. I wasn't thinking there was any needed due to lots of long hives only having bars with a top sitting on them. My follower board will work better without space. I could see where me using reagular frames could cause the bees to glue the frames to the cover. I used lang hive mesurements to build this and on the langs there is an inner cover adding bee space. I take it this is probly something I need to worry about? If I went with just board on top of the hive and then my cover, I could probly get them off one at a time even if the bees did glue them to the frames. I could also lay foam on them and under the cover.
Your thoughts
gww

I got most of my ideals off of bush bees website and just added my own little things to try and end up with something simular. I searched a lot of other stuff too but having no experiance I atleast thought I was understanding his stuff enough to try it. I use bee source free plans for the bee space measurements and just went with it. I hope to do better next time.
Thank you 
gww


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

Just a side note. You mentioned that the wood may be oak. If that is the case I would advise predrilling and then screwing together all of the joint. oak will swell up and twist not just from water coming from the outside but also from the living bees inside the hive. I have a couple medium oak Langs and am not so fond of them. Even though the wood was free


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

Yes most of canada is cold and under lots of snow, but over on the West coast we have had flying weather for the last month with pollen coming in to almost 30 days straight. Gave up skiing the local mountains and started hiking them last weekend


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I though most where doing like this.

http://www.wasatchbeekeepers.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Top-Bar-Hive_drawing_Page_4.jpg

and they did not worry about bee space above.
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

My lang has a inner cover and telescope lid.
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jake and eric
Apparently I type slower then everyone and don't keep up well.

I thought the top bee space did not matter due to many having their bars on the top. I knew when making it with regular frames that it might change the equation. My follower board won't work with bee space on top and my mesurement skills may not be good enough to compensate.

Since I don't have experiance I am listining though. And yes oak is a differrent animal to work with. I will say that I have deer stands that some of the oak steps are over 30 years old. I used a bunch of barn wood too.

My other mediums that I fixed as bait traps till needed.











Thanks
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

eric
Those pictures were taken today and although melting you can still see the snow.
gww


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

Yes but u forgot that with TBH the bars go tight against one another. Lang frames allow a bee space for the bees to move above the bars and up into the next Lang box above. When you make a long Lang hive you must have a way to close off those gaps between the Lang bars.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

Normal top bars are different because they completely block the top and all the bees stay underneath. yours have space to get above so they will all come up and over the second you take off the cover. Plus your roof isn't sealed very well so they will not be very weather proof and defendable. so even though it isn't necessary for them to have that space (like in a top bar) you will smash hundreds every inspection, which is not good. among the other issues.


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

Funny... Seems like Jake and I were separated at birth


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

eric



> Yes but u forgot that with TBH the bars go tight against one another. Lang frames allow a bee space for the bees to move above the bars and up into the next Lang box above. When you make a long Lang hive you must have a way to close off those gaps between the Lang bars.


I didn't really forget, I just though I could have the best of both worlds. I figured that I effectively got rid of the spaces when I put the top on and that the bars where 1/4 inch apart so no problim of proplus (or whatever its called) and no space above so no problim. I would have the siplicity of a top bar build with extra versitility. Yet the frame could be interchange with my other hive and if I wanted I could go up on the long hive with a super if needed.

I won't say my thinking was right, it was just what I was thinking when doing it.
gww


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## jennSAL (Jan 6, 2014)

I use political signs. In the area I have langstroth frames I have a separate smaller sign over it under the larger two signs covering the whole hive. But last year my hive abandoned after several good months, in Sept (still summer here- so warm, but maybe not enough forage). I often found lizards or frogs hanging out, not in the hive but right at the entrance (a missing frame or half of one's width in the center, with a block of wood holding up the political sign roof so they could crawl out under the edge). Any ideas on my abandoned hive? BTW I have a 1/8" screened bottom and had left it open to full venting through the screen all summer.


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

No worries, I see where u were coming from. It just that if u leave things as is you will kill a lot of bees, experience robbing and or the bees will propolis it like crazy to try and seal things up. The bees have pointed out many of my mistakes for me. &#55357;&#56842;


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jake



> Plus your roof isn't sealed very well so they will not be very weather proof and defendable. so even though it isn't necessary for them to have that space (like in a top bar) you will smash hundreds every inspection, which is not good. among the other issues.


I need to work on the roof and I see your point of it being even worse due to the top bar gaps. Smashing bees had not even crossed my mind. 

To me it is sounding better and better the thought of just putting three inner covers under the outer cover and then getting rid of the gaps between the outer cover and the inner cover. This brings on other problim up. The inner covers are going to have constriction points on the bee space where the cross members of the inner covers are. Would this be enough to worry about?

I like the ideal of only opening 1/3rd of the hive. Plain board on top and no bee space or shims would also get to the small bit of insulation improvement.

I bet the guys with plain top bars smash some bees even if they only take one bar at a time out cause all of them don't have more then plywood for a cover.

Your thoughts?


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

I think 3 pcs of plywood would be a good way to go. If you attach a Shim of 3/8 inch all the way around each section on the underside u will limit death and pissing off the bees. I have a lot of TBHs and rarely kill bees


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Jen
I am a dummy yet so maby some one else could help answer your question. I do know if frogs put to much pressure on you hives, I am going to have to start raising snakes to take them out cause I have plenty of toads around here.

Eric



> The bees have pointed out many of my mistakes for me.


I had doubts but was willing to try it while the lid was fitting well. The gaps today made me think harder and ask for help. I do think it would suck if I tried to take the cover off and all my frames lifted out with it.

You would not believe the looking at sites I did before building, trying to take all the ideals in and putting them to use with my meager understanding and the stuff I was working with. I take a bit here and a bit there and mix it all up and hope I got close. I have enjoyed the mental exersize a bit.

I am not positive what I will do yet but will make some changes. Guess I will fill the lang first.
Thanks 
gww


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

Eric Crosby said:


> I think 3 pcs of plywood would be a good way to go. If you attach a Shim of 3/8 inch all the way around each section on the underside u will limit death and pissing off the bees. I have a lot of TBHs and rarely kill bees


as we've established.. I agree. haha 

you do smash some bees between the top bars when you fit them back together but you dont' smash any on top because most are stuck below the bars. a few per inspection is a lot better than a few hundred that would happened if you put a flat board onto a hive with no space on top


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

eric
What do you think of the hives that jake had the pictures of in his very first post to me? 

Could I get away with splitting the cover I have now and using them on normal lang inner covers? I

have those medium supers made up as bait hives and while making them I just made more inner hive covers, without the hole in the center, for the lids of the bait hives. I did this so they would have dual purpose if needed. Most of them I made with regular hive bottoms also.

Then could I cut the current top in three peices and use it. I sure don't see how the other guys pictured survive the rains. Shims are easy and three peices of plywood under the current cover can be done. I will have to buy the plywood though and I was pretty proud of myself. I only have about $12 bucks bought stuff in my stuff so far. Mostly glue but also some small nails and staple for the frames. Course who knows what I have done to my table saw

I aint broke or anything and will buy what I need to make it work but it does hurt my pride cause I was pretty proud of myself so far.
Cheers
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Jake 
No matter how it happens (inner covers or just shims) you guys have convinced me on the bee space. Shims are really easy with the table saw so no real issue there. 

Eric 
You have top bars. Do you uncover large spaces to open up to the bees or just one or two bars at a time. Would I be as well with just one inch thick boards tight against each other on top of a shim with the cover over all and if needed a peice of foam between the boards and cover (maby even attached to the cover)?
Thanks
gww


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

If those inner covers fit then go for it. or even if 2 fit and you need to make a special sized 3rd one. then you can put the flat board you have now on top of that without cutting it. (just paint it and put some 2x4s down the side or something to stiffen it.


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

I think Jakes inner covers look pretty nice. Easy solution. Regarding saving money on materials... I cut and split Cedar on the beach by hand, bring it home and plane it and put it on the joiner, table saw and chop saw. Et Voila I have a TBH with a few screws and paint I buy for the lids. I don't have a single knot in any of my TBHs other than the bars which I buy the cedar for.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

Which were mine? On my lang I have a 3/4" x 3/4" shim that goes all the way around the edge even with the hive walls. more of a spacer than an inner cover. It also serves as my top entrance on the front side. you need a flush top with it so there are no gaps. 

The original 2 pics i posted were from Beesource people.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jake
3 inner covers comes to 48.75 inches and the long is 48 inches, I bet it is close enough to cover and still all edges be on wood. If I could get the cover stiffend enough to keep out the gaps I could still cut the holes in the covers and use them for dry sugar if needed. Using the inner covers will cause a loss of bee space over a few bars compared to the shim but are probly better for sugar then just newspapper on the frames.

Have you ever used foam board insulation on your lang. do the bees destroy it or does it put off fumes?

eric
Thats cool, I am retired now and mostly have time to goof off and I know what I do would be cheaper to buy then the time it takes. I do think doing it gains in other ways. You sort of figure things out better doing it even if it doesn't make sense. I had never heard of bee space till building the hives.
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jake


> Which were mine? On my lang I have a 3/4" x 3/4" shim that goes all the way around the edge even with the hive walls


Do the bees build comb on your cover?
gww


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

Optimal bee space ~3/8"
1/4" or less= Propolis
more than 3/8"= comb 
Langstroth's Hive is 1/2" between top bars and inner cover.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

gww said:


> jake
> 
> 
> Do the bees build comb on your cover?
> gww


Mine don't but they are a wee little hive at the moment and foundationless so they are preoccupied elsewhere. we'll see once they hopefully get bigger this year. I may have to make a thinner one. 

I think you will want something solid across the top no matter what. I'm not sure how that first picture gets away with it in the rain or if there is another piece that isn't shown in the thread it was in. Another good roof material is corrugated tin or fiberglass. could check Craigslist for free plywood or roofing. I have a ton of 2x4s and plywood someone gave away last year. Also the cut off area at Home Depot sometimes has half sheets that would be less $


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Quick not on a cover, I currently don't have a long hive so take everything with a grain of salt (TBHs and standard langs only so far). My TBHs have an outer cover made from coroplast (political signs) attached to a frame made from a ripped 2x4, probably about 3/4 by 1 inch. I then put in a piece of rigid foam insulation that is glued in with contact cement and secured further with a few battens. These work for me as I'm building for low weight and to keep the weather out. This cover is over the hive with about a 2 inch gap from the top bars. I don't measure it, it may be higher, it may be lower. In the summer I raise the outer cover a couple more inches to increase airflow across the top of the bars, I do this as soon as I see any bearding, and it seems to stop it mostly. I'm not that concerned with cold in Virginia, although the last two years we have had nasty cold below zero and it hasn't affected the bees. 

You will be well served but the bee space over the bars. Try to get you hive the best you can before you put bees in it. It is a pain to modify a hive once it has bees in it, don't ask me how I know.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Jake
thanks for the tips.

shannon



> Try to get you hive the best you can before you put bees in it. It is a pain to modify a hive once it has bees in it, don't ask me how I know.


I don't have to ask, I believe you.

I use the political signs for sighting in my deer rifle. They have those little wire frames and are really easy to put up and take down.

I like your ideal but will have to wait for the next election cycle as all my signs now have holes in them.
cheers
gww


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## jennSAL (Jan 6, 2014)

gww said:


> I use the political signs for sighting in my deer rifle.


I think you have the best use for political signs, but mine last longer! I cut them to proper length (few inches longer than needed so they overlap) and bend the big ones along the channels so they hang off the back of the hive as an extra rain guard. TOday gonna brave the rain and see if I can just have my entrance at an end- I'd be afraid it might close- but can rig a spacer or know that if the front topbar moves forward then there's a space behind it for entry!


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

jenn


> TOday gonna brave the rain and see if I can just have my entrance at an end- I'd be afraid it might close- but can rig a spacer or know that if the front topbar moves forward then there's a space behind it for entry!


I will have to brave snow today if I do anything. I really like how my top entrance is at the end of the hive. The end board is just cut down 3/8th of an inch and I have a small 3/8th inch shim that I can slide in to reduce the size of the enterance. I don't have bees yet and may be all wet, but like the ideal of it.
gww


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

The only problem I have had so far with coroplast is that when it is very cold it become brittle, but that isn't a big issue since I don't go in the hives when it is below freezing But if you have a lid get blown off in the cold it will probably get damaged. Don't ask me how I know.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Shannon
That white plastic (or whatever) that I have on mine is very brittle all the time and worse when cold. I am going to bump the corner and take big peices out of it. It is heavy though. I don't worry too much as long as I keep a couple sticks of fire wood on it. It is heavy. 

This is my trial equiptment. I have never seen a bee hive in real life. My son in law ask if I would care if he kept bees on my place. He lives 3 hours away. I am retired and goofing off and will use this as a bribe to get them to visit more.

I do want to do it corretly as possible and have gotten excited for myself on getting bees. I have the space, like staying home better then going anywhere and believe bees will fit my lifestyle. 

I really apretiate others experiances and ideals. I really like them if it helps me look for things that others might throw away but I can use. I don't really like gethering things I have no use for but if I know in advance of a use I start watching to gether the stuff.

Thank you
gww


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I only have brittle issues when it is cold, kind of like bee comb. Touch it in the cold and it crumbles.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Ok
So as to not leave everyone guessing what I did to correct my mistake, here is what I did.
I put a 3/8th inch shim around the top, cut lenths of boards from a pallet and layed them side to side on top of the shims. Put my original cover over all.

I now have my bee space above the frames and due to using boards with the widest about 5 inches, I have made all the gaps that robbers bees could get in smaller then they could fit through. As an added benefit I can open only a portion of the hive at a time. The bees may have to help a bit in making it a bit more air tight as there is some very small warping on a few of the boards. I think that will be fine as getting them boards a bit more sticky would help when putting the outer cover on as it is pretty easy to slide the boards out of place currently.
Thanks for all the help and Ideals.
gww


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