# oxytetracycline



## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

Tetracycline past it's shelf life can degrade into toxic elements that can cause kidney damage. I suspect oxytetracycline is probably very similar in it's characteristics and likely could do that same thing. Not sure I would test my luck on my honey bees with it.


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## Hillbillybees (Mar 3, 2016)

Time to go dumpster diving.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Fivej said:


> I was at a store today and they had 2 bags of it. I asked the store guy about it and he said that they were allowed to sell their inventory. I looked at the expiry date and its over a year expired, so I didn't take it and he took it off the shelf to dispose of because it was expired. As I was driving away I wondered if I should have taken it anyway. I know that most things don't expire when they say it does and to date, we have no vets in VT that will prescribe it. So wondering if some expired antibiotic may be better than none. I do not have an issue at the moment, but who knows come spring. What do you think? J


About a year ago. I spoke to a medical doctor who also keeps bees and had several colonies with active EFB. This person asked the best treatment, and I responded: oxytetracycline!! I told them that I had some oxytetracycline, but it was expired. The expiration caused NO concern to this person. Ultimately, they found oxytetracycline elsewhere, but it seemed as though they were fine with using expired oxytetracycline.

You said: "we have no vets in VT that will prescribe it". Can you contact your state apiarist, or apiary inspector? There must be a path to get the needed treatment.


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## roberto487 (Sep 22, 2012)

If you are near the Canadian border, you can cross over and buy it there. They even have an EFB mix ready to go.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think Dec. 10 is the cutoff date for availability here in Canada. Many small feed outlets have sold out and not been replacing stocks for quite some time. Some of the formulations I have seen for other livestock do not have dillution and feed directions specifically for bees. Directions for arriving at bee safe concentrations can still be chased down on the internet though.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Thanks for all the great responses. I am going to stop back in to the store tomorrow and bet I won't have to dumpster dive for it unless they are more organized than they look. The guy took the 2 bags and put them on a shelf next to the "back room". Probably will sit there for several months. Think Ill offer 50%. J


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

5J>>>
It looks like there are 7 Bee Vets in VT
see here:
https://www.hbvc.org/Veterinarians.php?s_states_licensed_in=VT

I'm pretty sure our own Chris Cripps of Betterbee is the creator of the honey bee vet consortium.


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## Knisely (Oct 26, 2013)

Live Oak said:


> Tetracycline past it's shelf life can degrade into toxic elements that can cause kidney damage.


Honeybees don't have kidneys, so it's unlikely that any specific problem with their kidneys would develop. 

Connecticut also doesn't have any veterinarians (at least the last time I checked on line) that listed themselves as being available to do consultations and prescribe appropriate antibiotics. The mechanisms put in place by the federal government that limit access to veterinary antibiotics (important for keeping humans healthy) don't meet the needs of people in the real world. I am uncertain whether veterinarians need to go through specialized training to be able to prescribe antibiotics to honeybees, or whether their general license would permit them to provide access to oxytetracycline.

Perhaps the vet who cares for your dog or cat would be willing to work with you to provide appropriate care for your insects...


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Thanks Clyderoad. Last time I checked that site, nobody from VT had signed up. One is fairly close, so maybe he could help if I have an issue. J


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I know a medical doctor who started out as a pharmacist and went on to become a medical doctor.He said not to worry too much on the expiration dates as they have to put dates on them also its a selling point.Expire and the pharmaceutical company sells more.Can you say more profits? Yep!!! The one thing he did suggest was to keep in a cool dark place until opened.After opened reseal and put in your refrigerator.


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## Knisely (Oct 26, 2013)

Knisely said:


> Connecticut also doesn't have any veterinarians (at least the last time I checked on line) that listed themselves as being available to do consultations and prescribe appropriate antibiotics.


When you look at the site suggested by ClydeRoad (www.hbvc.org), look using the abbreviation for your state. Don't type out 'Connecticut', use 'CT'.


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

Fivej said:


> Thanks for all the great responses. I am going to stop back in to the store tomorrow and bet I won't have to dumpster dive for it unless they are more organized than they look. The guy took the 2 bags and put them on a shelf next to the "back room". Probably will sit there for several months. Think Ill offer 50%. J


What you are looking for is Pennox 343 which is readily available online. It is oxytetracycline. It comes is a bit larger package but is reasonably inexpensive. Depending upon how much you use, it comes in a 20 lb. case which is even cheaper in bulk. These are 23.9 oz. packs. If you are on good terms with your veterinarian, he can provide you with a prescription so you can place the order.

https://www.qcsupply.com/pennox-343...MIt63exeyH3wIVCD0MCh2jDgQeEAYYASABEgJo_fD_BwE


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Good info. I think my prior vet would have accommodated me, but he recently retired and I don't know the new one that well yet. J


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

I got some OTC again this year, and they sent me a package that expired in early 2021.

So after a long drive, I exchanged it for one with one that expires in 2022.

I ordered the biggest possible package.

Kidney damage does seem to be one of the listed issues with expired OTC, but to be frank, I couldn't really find any reliable information on the subject.

In fact, I don't think anything has ever been published about kidney damage from OTC that has expired, which makes me believe that it's not something we have to be overly concerned about so long as we use up the OTC within a couple of years after it expires.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

username00101 said:


> I got some OTC again this year, and they sent me a package that expired in early 2021.
> 
> So after a long drive, I exchanged it for one with one that expires in 2022.
> 
> ...


Some drugs lose potency/efficacy over time, and this can be important. Other chemical changes may occur as well. Oxytet appears to be relatively stable if stored at less than 40*F and protected from light, but the HCl component can degrade if stored at higher temps.

A brief look at the NIH material doesn't provide a quick answer as to how the degradation of HCl affects performance, or how long after the 'official' expiration date the product might be still considered to be 'fully effective'...especially if stored incorrectly.

Someone else wrote:



> So wondering if some expired antibiotic may be better than none.


Using a reduced efficacy product can be _worse_ than using none at all. Reduced efficacy or insufficient treatment dosing is what results in resistant strains of bacteria.

Personally, I wouldn't want to go very far after expiration. A couple of months? Sure. A couple of years? After sitting on a shelf at room temp? I'd chuck it.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Was not able to identify any reliable references indicating exactly what happens if oxytetracycline expires, or if it's still effective or not. Some rumors here and there of kidney issues, nothing concrete or scientific.

Agreed with the above poster stated, 40F storage, would increase storage. Sitting in the back of a pickup truck? 2 years, max. 

If stored properly, OTC could possibly (likely?) last several years after expiration. Frankly, I don't know, and could not find any reliable references on the subject, beyond the "2 year recommendation".


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

In a timely article, in this month's Bee Culture the 'Bee Vet' (Dr. Tracy Farone) writes on this subject specifically:



> "Using medications that are expired may accomplish three things. Expired drugs are less effective in treatment, may contribute to resistance, and/or they break down and their metabolites can become toxic. Interestingly, many drugs after expiring usually just become less effective and not toxic. *However, tetracyclines is one category of antibiotics that are known to increase in toxicity after expiration.* Coming from a farm mentality, I get frugality. But believing that using expired drugs is working to treat or prevent disease and/or is economical is a dangerous fantasy."


So, there you have it from the mouth of a 'pro' who should know- tetracyclines become toxic with age and should not be used after expiration. This is probably even more so if they have been stored improperly.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Yeah yeah yeah, same old regurgitated rumors "oxytetracycline is known to get toxic with age". Very difficult to find any legitimate evidence explaining how and why that happens. Just to say expired drugs are toxic is not sufficient, we need actual evidence, otherwise it's just hearsay.


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## Steve_in_NC (Apr 9, 2000)

In humans, tetracyclines are the classic example of a drug that can become toxic after it has expired. Many drugs can be safely used after their expiration date. Not so with tetracycines. Just get some fresh drug if you need it. Look under "cautions" in this wikipedia article. Tetracycline antibiotics - Wikipedia MANY examples online of expired tetracyclines being dangerous.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have been using a pail of Mann Lake Terra patty for about five years for EFB and it is effective as ever. Wish my Viagra worked as well as it does. One dose and the hive is back better than ever.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

odfrank said:


> I have been using a pail of Mann Lake Terra patty for about five years for EFB and it is effective as ever. Wish my Viagra worked as well as it does. One dose and the hive is back better than ever.


Try a spoonful of it and let us know what comes up!


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

username00101 said:


> Yeah yeah yeah, same old regurgitated rumors "oxytetracycline is known to get toxic with age". Very difficult to find any legitimate evidence explaining how and why that happens. Just to say expired drugs are toxic is not sufficient, we need actual evidence, otherwise it's just hearsay.


They are _not_ 'regurgitated rumors'. The toxicity of outdated/degraded tetracyclines has been well-studied, as far back as the 1950s. In people, it causes Fanconi Syndrome.

I already mentioned the degradation of the HCl component. Drugs are specifically formulated chemicals that act in specific ways. Changes in the formulation of the components change how the whole works.

Further, the tetracyclines degrade into 4-epitetracycline (ETC), anhydrotetracycline (ATC) and 4-epianhydrotetracycline (EATC), which influences the mode of action and toxicity.

Pubchem is your friend. Just because _you_ don't know how to find the information doesn't mean it isn't there. Your continued insistence of 'rumor' even after I posted information from a professional vet tells me all I need to know about you and the value of your words...I could probably extrapolate some other things from there, but it isn't likely to do any good.

Bottom line: Expiration dates on tetracyclines _do_ mean something important.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Could you post a reference?

Should have just quoted yourself, you seem to be more knowledgeable than that vet.

Also, if we don't know the pattern of breakdown over time, at various temperatures, it makes it difficult to assess if there's any legitimate threat.

For example, a bucket left in a shed for 5 years, that gets up into the 80F range, will degrade quicker than one stored in a cold dry location. Like an air conditioned room, or a refrigerator.

Keep in mind that bees also do not have human kidneys (that should be obvious).


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

My beekeeping experience has shown me that a packet stored on a shelf at room temperature for two years after the expiration date will still arrest EFB. Based on visual symptoms, there is no detrimental effect to the adult bees or to brood. As od has said, the colony after the treatment comes back strong.


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