# will this work



## Kenneth F (Nov 4, 2011)

Can I use a langsworth hive body with just the top bar of the frame and a 3/4" starter strip? Not exactly a warre but will this get me started? I tried catching a swarm last year but lost them after a week I plan to try and buy a package maybe two this spring


----------



## Hawkster (Apr 16, 2010)

I think all you will get with this approach is a mess of comb attached to the hive body on the sides since there is no side bar. will not be able to inspect without ripping that comb apart...


----------



## Tom B (May 11, 2011)

The bees do not care what you use inside the hive, they will build comb regardless. If your aim is to go foundationless, you would stand a better chance of success if you used the entire frame rather than just the top bar.


----------



## Kenneth F (Nov 4, 2011)

That makes sense what keeps the them from attaching comb to the hive body in a true warre hive


----------



## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

Kenneth F said:


> That makes sense what keeps the them from attaching comb to the hive body in a true warre hive


Nothing. They attach to the sides in a warre and you can't remove frames (w/out a lot of work) or do anything until you harvest the whole box. I had two and am in the process of moving them to frames that fit in the box. Going to ramble a bit because it seems to me you are considering similar ideas to what I had when I started two yrs ago.

Don't buy the hype about the benefits of fixed comb. You can get the same benefits by using full frames pushed together using starter strips (foundationless). If you do this you must ensure the hive is level or it will not work--alternating foundation makes this less critical. Much more negatives than positives to the fixed frame theory (like splitting the hive in spring if strong). I have a strong 1yr warre that will need spit this spring and I am not sure how I will do this. 

The best benefit of a warre is the quilt top (the reason I started w/ them). You can make this for a lang too to get the same thing. I think the square shape has merit too but the bees don't seem to care too much provided the hive is strong and well fed (for a smaller, weaker, hive there might be a slight advantage to the smaller space).

Warres don't decrease effects of mite burdens either, despite what some folks write online. If you don't have proven resistant stock you will most likely lose hives within two years if you don't manage for mite control.

Better to start w/ frames that you can move--even if you never go into the hive. At least you have the option to do something should the need arise (and it will). My treatment free warre swarmed like crazy the first year (I could do nothing to suppress the urge due to fixed frames) and then just died out due to mites this year. 

Also, start w/ two hives if you can. It helps a lot to have a comparison hive. Don't expect to have the bees and be able to "leave them alone" until harvest time or you will likely be disappointed (I think this is part of the allure of Warre's writings). The only real way to learn the nature of the flows (and the times when you need to feed to help the bees) in your area is to get in there and see what is going on).


----------



## rmcpb (Aug 15, 2012)

If you want to go Warre then consider using half frames like in the bottom right picture on this page.

As for topbars in a lang, it would make any manipulations very difficult. I just use foundationless in my langs, make sure they are level and give them a starter strip (if you have some drawn comb then alternate a new frame with a drawn frame to act as a guide).


----------



## Kenneth F (Nov 4, 2011)

Is this what you're talking about putting in a langsworth? I guess foundationless would be what I'm really after and not so much the top bar thanks for the help fellas I really appreciate it


----------



## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

Kenneth F said:


> Is this what you're talking about putting in a langsworth? I guess foundationless would be what I'm really after and not so much the top bar thanks for the help fellas I really appreciate it


Anyone here use these (rmcpb)? Do they (the bees)attach a lot of comb to the top bars of the box below? Is beespace between the sidebars and the box critical? Thinking of converting the top bars of my fixed frame Warre boxes to this by nailing on some wood strips. Are there places to purchase these? Any advice on making?


----------



## Bubbles (Jul 14, 2012)

JClark said:


> I have a strong 1yr warre that will need spit this spring and I am not sure how I will do this.


Maybe you could try a walk-away split or use a double screen board? I plan on using the latter for my Warre.
With regards to removing a fixed comb, there is a tool that you can slowly cut the comb off the wall. See this link. http://warre.biobees.com/cutter.htm Or, just place the box upside down and use a long serrated knife to cut the edges off.


----------



## tenMOacres (Feb 25, 2013)

JClark said:


> The best benefit of a warre is the quilt top (the reason I started w/ them). You can make this for a lang too to get the same thing.


Hi J,
Have you done this and have you found it advantageous? Did you use it with 8 or 10 frame? It seems like such a great idea, if it works, like the best of both worlds.


----------



## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

Tried a wintering inner cover w/ a styrofoam insert for insulation (from brushy mtn) on my lang. I put a piece of cloth over the middle hole to allow moisture to escape and keep bees from chewing the insulation. Has an upper entrance too to help w/ moisture control. Seems to have worked okay but had planned on converting a super to a quilt for next year as I think it will provide more even moisture control. This was my first winter w/ a lang and second w/ warres. My first warre died due to mites but the other warre and my lang are doing good. Warre seems to have overwintered a much better (judging by current cluster size) but the lang was a swarm from the mite ridden warre and had some high #s. Will treat both w/ MAQS this year or I am sure they will dye next winter. 

Seems I may be moving to Fayetteville, NC this summer so will have to see what that weather is like--may be less benefit there since it is a little warmer. Once I have enough hives I will do some trials (need to figure out how I will get the bees down there). Just got some warre boxes w/ movable frames but they are expensive--great quality though. Looking forward to using them this year. Need to get to the point where I can make this stuff myself.


----------



## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

By the way, my lang is 8 frame medium and I have them reduced to one box a few weeks ago--cluster down to soft ball size now so I did this to get a pollen patty on top of them (they were still in the bottom box) and to reduce the space they need to defend from my Warre scout robbers. Will have to watch honey stores closely now as they start to rear more brood.


----------



## tenMOacres (Feb 25, 2013)

Fascinating! We love the ideas behind the Warre, imitating structures the bees naturally choose to hive in. When it became apparent we weren't going to be able to afford them, my husband's first thought was that one should be able to adapt the quilt to a Langstroth. An 8 frame Langstroth with a screen bottom and a quilt might not be too different from a "modified Warre" hive. He ran the question past the teacher at his Beekeeping class; the teacher seemed to feel that humidity wasn't a big factor where we live. I suppose that's true, esp if you have air flowing through the hive, but I think I read that Warre felt the air flow made the bees work harder to keep the environment stable, and consequently caused them to burn through their honey stores faster? It's hard to know what to think. Would be very interested to hear your results if you're able to continue. Thanks for the info!


----------



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Kenneth F said:


> Is this what you're talking about putting in a langsworth? I guess foundationless would be what I'm really after and not so much the top bar thanks for the help fellas I really appreciate it


Hi
I am doing something between Lang and Warre. I am experimenting with different foundationless frame design. You could see some results here:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-frameless-honey-in-Santa-Monica-July-16-2012

Note the top bar "frame" full of honeycomb in post #8 and others.


----------

