# Overwintering Nucs



## MWillard (Dec 8, 2008)

I hope someone has some advice for me regarding over wintering nucs.

Here's the situation. I live in northern Vermont, and I'm planing to overwinter two nucs that I started in mid July. The nucs are in a divided deep. I was wondering if anyone has a recommendation on how many frames of honey stores I should make sure the girls go into winter with.

Here is the setup:
Bottom Hive Body: Divided Deep w/ 4 frames on each side.
Top Super: Divided Deep w/ 4 frames on each side.

Thank you in advance for your advice and suggestions.
Michael


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Your setup sounds fine. 
You want the nuc packed with honey (at least the top 5 frames mostly honey or with a little brood plus the two outer walls in the lower deep) and honey pollen and bees on the three middle deep frames in the lower box. 
I winter many of my nucs on just 5 deep frames and also 5 deep + 5 medium. 
As long as everything is totally full you should be fine.


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## MWillard (Dec 8, 2008)

Thanks Erin. That's very helpful.

When do you think I should switch over and start feeding them the 2:1 sugar water? Our goldenrod is still in bloom and should be for another week or so. I've been giving them a cup of 1:1 sugar water everyother day to promote comb building on the empty frames in the top super.

Thanks,
Michael


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Do a search of the board for overwintering nucs. Micheal Palmer is in Vermont too, and he overwinters hundreds of nucs. Copy what he does, and you have a fighting chance.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

MWillard said:


> When do you think I should switch over and start feeding them the 2:1 sugar water? Our goldenrod is still in bloom and should be for another week or so.


I expect your Goldenrod will last longer than that...into September. By mid-September, the flow will be finished...except for some Aster. Start feeding your 2:1 at that point. Be finished by mid-October, so the feed will be well ripened. 

With the nuc supers on, Erin has it correct. The super's 4 frames should be full, as well as the 2 outside combs in the bottom.


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## Camp9 (Feb 7, 2006)

Has anyone tried to winter nucs using dry sugar?

Camp


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## MWillard (Dec 8, 2008)

Thank you for the feeback on the honey stores, I'll plan accordingly.

When we start the fall feed of 2:1, do you think I should treat the nucs with fumagillin?

What are you thoughts on treating for varroa in the nucs? Can they handle a formic acid treatment without stressing them out too much? I'm concerned the pads may be too strong for an 8 frame nuc.


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## bnatural (Aug 10, 2008)

Camp9 said:


> Has anyone tried to winter nucs using dry sugar?
> 
> Camp


I did. Last year I started six 5-frame polystyrene nucs about this time and they all went into winter strong. After Christmas temps did not go above freezing until we had a 'warm' snap in mid-February, which was the first time I could check them since before Thanksgiving. Two were dead - starved out, two were nearly dead - very lethargic, small group, no stores, two were on the top frames and out of food, but strong. Fed the four survivors dry sugar on newspaper. The two weak nucs did not make it, but the two stronger ones did and I built them up to 6 hives this year. They needed two refills on the dry sugar before the weather broke in April.

So, you can definitely do the dry sugar method. This year I plan to set all my nucs up with dry sugar from the beginning (the last thing I will give them in the fall).

My advice to anyone starting nucs for the first time, no matter what configuration you use and especially if you live up north, is to check them early in the winter and check them regularly to see how they are doing. You won't really know what your bees will need in your particular situation, until you try. Once you have done it a few times, you will know what YOU need to do in your bee yard for your nucs. Until you know, it is better to err on the side of caution and give too much, rather than too little. If I had bitten the bullet and walked through the snow to open my nucs in January, I might have brought all 6 through the winter. Lesson learned.

Bill


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## Camp9 (Feb 7, 2006)

bnatural said:


> I did.
> So, you can definitely do the dry sugar method. This year I plan to set all my nucs up with dry sugar from the beginning (the last thing I will give them in the fall).
> 
> 
> Bill


I was going to try it anyway, but good to know you had some positive results. I've got about the same situation here, and also caught a swarm the other day that is in about the same boat as my nucs. Thanks 

Camp


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## MWillard (Dec 8, 2008)

BNATURAL was you setup for nucs, just a simple poly 5 frame nuc box? When you went into winter, how many frames of honey did you start out with?


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## MWillard (Dec 8, 2008)

bnatural said:


> So, you can definitely do the dry sugar method. This year I plan to set all my nucs up with dry sugar from the beginning (the last thing I will give them in the fall).
> 
> 
> I'm assuming the newspaper goes on top of the frames and you pile sugar on top, is this correct? How much sugar should I plan to put in the nuc?
> ...


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## bnatural (Aug 10, 2008)

Correct - frames, newspaper, sugar. I would put as much as you can fit, up to a five pound bag to start. If you want to start slow, then add half a bag. It will absorb excess moisture and harden, which is fine. If they don't use it all, that is also fine, because you can just use it for syrup in the spring.

Because the polystyrene nucs have close-fitting lids, I can't put that much on. So, I have to check and add several times during the winter.

Below is a pic of one nuc in March. that's a pollen patty on the right.










Bill


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## MWillard (Dec 8, 2008)

Thanks Bill it's helpful to see your photo.

Did you add the pollen in the spring, or is that pattie left over from what you put there in the fall?

How do you prepare your poly nuc box for winter? Based on one of your comments you said they are outside. Do you leave them sitting on the ground or elevated? The reason I ask, is if they are on the ground, would the snow would help insulsate them?

Being my first year keeping bees, it's great talking with folks who live in the northeast and experiences the cold temps and wintery mix mother nature throws at us.


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## bnatural (Aug 10, 2008)

The pollen patties were not added initially, only later at the end of February during the second addition of sugar.

The only prep I did for the nucs was to close off one of the two vent holes (there is one above the entrance and one on the top on the other side or 'back'. The hives come with plugs for the holes and I closed off the one one the back that faced west, the predominant wind direction. Being polystyrene the nucs keep the bees pretty snug. But, I don't wrap my main hives, either. I did the first couple of years that I kept bees, but I thought (could be wrong) that the black tar paper sometimes fooled the bees into believing it was warmer outside than it really was, because on bright sunny days they would leave the hives on cleansing flights when it was only in the teens, resulting in lots of dead bees in the snow. They plug up all the gaps with propolis, anyway, and the hives are vented top and bottom, so I don't know how much benefit the wrapping really did. They seem to overwinter fine without it.

The nucs are on two stacked concrete building blocks to keep them up and out of the snow. My bee yard is up against the trees on the north side of my rear lawn, so the snow does not get very deep there. here's a pic of the yard in March, showing how quickly the snow melts from that location. You can see the nucs on the blocks. If you look closely, you can see bees flying from the main hives, especially the two Russian hives on the right. All the main hives have top entrances in shims (the non-painted strip) that I add for the winter. Those are vent boxes over the shims.










That was the old yard. I doubled its size this year. It is surrounded by an electric netting fence powered by a small solar charger you can see on the right.

Bill


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## bnatural (Aug 10, 2008)

I should point out that last year was my first year trying to overwinter nucs, so I am far from an expert. Michael Palmer is up in your neck of the woods, keeps hundreds of wooden nucs and has been doing it for years. I'm sure he can weigh in with a lot more specific and useful information than I can.

bill


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

bnatural said:


> ....keeps hundreds of wooden nucs and has been doing it for years. I'm sure he can weigh in with a lot more specific and useful information


One tip right now...

Forget the dry sugar bit. Feed 2:1 syrup early. For 4 frame single story nucs, 3.5 frames of feed is enough. For 2 story nucs like yours MWillard, feed enough so 4 frames in super are full and capped...and outside 2 combs in bottom and full. Start feeding when Goldenrod is finished...middle of September. Feed in gallon cans. The idea is to get it on the hives as fast as possible...and stored before cold weather. Finish by the middle of October.

Frames of honey are 6-7 pounds. A gallon of 2:1 is about 10, but shrinks a bit. If you need say...3 combs to be filled, then feed 2 gallons. After it's gone, check the combs again and top off if necessary.

You'll be a lot happier if you don't have to slog through the snow to feed dry sugar. And your bees will be a lot healthier if they don't have to process all that granulated sugar in mid winter.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> One tip right now...
> 
> For 4 frame single story nucs, 3.5 frames of feed is enough. For 2 story nucs like yours MWillard, feed enough so 4 frames in super are full and capped...and outside 2 combs in bottom and full.


So far I find this the most challenging part- managing the nucs so that they can store enough honey for winter. It is not from lack of feeding syrup, it is that they are too crowded with brood. I have to keep taking brood out of the nucs- those queens put in there are new and laying, laying laying. For example, right now one I made towards the end of July has 3 frames of brood and only 1 of honey. Even the ones I took a frame of brood out of, I think I will have to do that again one more time at least. Note- we do not have Fall necctar flow here like you folks up Northl


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

winevines said:


> So far I find this the most challenging part- managing the nucs so that they can store enough honey for winter. It is not from lack of feeding syrup, it is that they are too crowded with brood. I have to keep taking brood out of the nucs- those queens put in there are new and laying, laying laying. For example, right now one I made towards the end of July has 3 frames of brood and only 1 of honey. Even the ones I took a frame of brood out of, I think I will have to do that again one more time at least. Note- we do not have Fall necctar flow here like you folks up Northl


Keep at it Karla. You're doing what has to be done. Removing brood frames and replacing. They don't need to store feed yet. To prevent swarming, you either remove brood frames or expand the size of the broodnest...either up or out.

There must come a time when your production colonies slow down brood rearing. Here, it's after the Goldenrod is nearly finished. Some years an early frost will do it. At that point, the bees are storing honey in recently emerged brood cells. Swarming is finished. That's when I would feed until they have enough for winter. Until then, it's all about swarm control.

Your season is so much longer than mine, and no fall flow to boot, it's difficult to give you an accurate time line. Look to what the production colonies are doing. Follow their lead, and you should be ok.


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## berkshire bee (Jan 28, 2007)

Mike, What's the approximate percentage of single story to 2 story nucs you go into winter with, and does one do better than the other? The queens I got from you are laying well. I've been switching a frame here and there to equalize the nucs and keep them from getting too crowded. Seems to be going well. Tony


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

berkshire bee said:


> Mike, What's the approximate percentage of single story to 2 story nucs you go into winter with, and does one do better than the other?


I'm taking about 500 into the winter this year. 25 or 30 are in 9 frame mediums...1 or 2 boxes. 220 are double 4 frame nucs with a 4 frame super above. About 250 are double 4 frame nucs in single story.


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## bnatural (Aug 10, 2008)

Karla, it was an issue for me last year, too, because all my nucs had new queens, and I stared them in August. As Michael recommended, I fed the heck out of them and they also had the advantage of the fall flow we get up here. They had stores on all or part of four of five frames, but that was not enough. 

Now, I am running only 5-frame nucs, so they do not have any extra boxes or frames, and I am using polystyrene nucs. The plus is that they keep the bees pretty snug; the negative is that they keep the bees pretty snug. By that I mean that the bees are warmer, so they are more active, so they eat more stores. I know that Michael doesn't like it, but for me using dry sugar during the winter saved my nucs, well two of them at least. I also used it on the hives I started from packages, because I cut some corners with them going into winter, and I know it saved some of them, too. All the hives eventually ate everything on the paper, and I did not see any problems from using it. Hopefully, with this nice goldenrod flow we are now having up here, they will really pack it away for winter, so I won't have to worry about the main hives.

Checked the bees yesterday and all new queens have been accepted and are laying (7 nucs, 1 hive - 4 Russian, 4 Sooper Yooper). It is amazing how quickly and heavily the new queens lay. Here is a shot of a frame from a nuc. The bees JUST started drawing it out, yet you can already see eggs in the middle (and some pollen in a few cells above and to the right. Sorry for the blurry pic - hard to hold the frame and take the shot, while in 90+ degree weather in a bee suit. The frame is upside down, BTW.










Bill


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> Keep at it Karla. You're doing what has to be done. Removing brood frames and replacing.
> 
> There must come a time when your production colonies slow down brood rearing. Here, it's after the Goldenrod is nearly finished. Some years an early frost will do it. At that point, the bees are storing honey in recently emerged brood cells. Swarming is finished. That's when I would feed until they have enough for winter. Until then, it's all about swarm control.


Thanks! Your encouragement is appreciated. You would be proud, this year our group is increasing its efforts with overwintering, we all have more nucs to overwinter than last year. Some have VP queens and some have our own reared queens which is really exciting. I have 8 nucs going into winter- in different configerations to try and compare what methods work best. 

This year production colonies are still going strong. Lots of Spring rain may have given us more of a late summer flow- certainly much more of a flow than I have seen in my brief experience keeping bees (4 years now). So I will keep moving brood from the nucs and not worry so much about honey stores until next month when I start 2 to 1.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

bnatural said:


> Because the polystyrene nucs have close-fitting lids, I can't put that much on. So, I have to check and add several times during the winter.
> l


By the way, I do not see it on line, but in a 2009 catalog, I saw that Betterbee was making shims for these polystrene nucs. Shims helped in my set up, (even though I am using wood nucs) it gave some room for pollen patties etc. so you might consider that opinion.


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## bnatural (Aug 10, 2008)

winevines said:


> By the way, I do not see it on line, but in a 2009 catalog, I saw that Betterbee was making shims for these polystrene nucs. Shims helped in my set up, (even though I am using wood nucs) it gave some room for pollen patties etc. so you might consider that opinion.


Thanks, I saw those, too, earlier this year and ordered a bunch of them for all my nucs (10). I did it during a call-in order and even asked if they were shims for the lids on the nucs, which I was told they were. Turns out they are the wooden front pieces on which the revolving entrance reducers are fitted. Guess they have a different definition of shim than I do. They were not worth the price of returning them, so I ended up eating the cost.

I told a customer service person at BetterBee that they should talk to the manufacturer about making shims for those nucs. Would help me out a lot in the winter. So far, though, nothing.

Again, thanks,

Bill


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## MWillard (Dec 8, 2008)

I am interested to know if people overwinter their nucs on top of production hives? 

If so, what is the set-up you have found to help keep moisture from the production hive becoming an issue in the nuc?

Thanks,
Michael


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

MWillard said:


> Does anyone overwinter their nucs on top of production hive?
> 
> If so, what is the set-up you have found to work the best to help keep the moisture from the production hive from becoming an issue in the nuc?
> 
> Michael


Winter the nuc box above the inner cover, with no contact between the two.


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## MWillard (Dec 8, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> Winter the nuc box above the inner cover, with no contact between the two.


Mike, 
I'm assuming that in this case, you would leave the inner cover hole open. In the setup you are recommending, is the bottom board of the nuc sitting on top of the inner cover of the production hive?

Michael


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

MWillard - Mike will tell you to close the innner cover hole with two layers of duct tape - top and bottom and set the nuc right on that (no bottom board). 

I winter quite a few colonies with double screened divided nuc bottom board/top cover for the hive below to encourage heat sharing+ good pheremone sharing. 
My nucs have homasote "inner covers" which are grooved to the side and migratory style outer covers with a rain guard (tar paper) over everything. This allows enough moisture wicking for the parent and nucs. 

the keys here are: 
1 - keep the bees in each colony from being able to physically contact eachother (QMP is communicated by touch so you need to keep them apart so they don't know that there are three colonies)
2 - allow transfer of positive inputs (heat/pheremones) as much as possible
3- prevent moisture buildup in any of the colonies/boxes

I hope this helps. 

On a side note, what a GREAT discussion of overwintering! Thanks MikeP for keeping up with this thread - so great to see so many of us working on making our apiaries more sustainable through overwintering nucs. 

I'll be headed to winter with 60+ nucs this year, they're looking great now that the goldenrod and knotweed have started and I'm working hard to stay ahead of swarming. 


-E.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Maine_Beekeeper said:


> MWillard - Mike will tell you to close the innner cover hole with two layers of duct tape - top and bottom and set the nuc right on that (no bottom board).
> 
> I winter quite a few colonies with double screened divided nuc bottom board/top cover for the hive below to encourage heat sharing+ good pheremone sharing.
> My nucs have homasote "inner covers" which are grooved to the side and migratory style outer covers with a rain guard (tar paper) over everything. This allows enough moisture wicking for the parent and nucs.


My nucs do have a bottom board, and the whole thing is placed on top of a production colony inner cover. The escape hole in inner cover is taped closed as Erin has said...only both pieces of tape are on the top of the escape hole. I don't want all that moisture up in the nucs.

Erin does it differently. Uses a double screen, and absorbes the moisture with homasote. I use foam on the nuc's inner cover bag, and an upper entrance to vent moisture away.

So, here we have another classic example of two beekeepers using different means to arrive at the same end. While opposite in theory, both seem to work.

Here's another method...just this year I have set up 200+ 4 frame nucs in double nuc boxes with 4 frame supers added above. The nucs have gone wild on the foundation with this Goldenrod flow. I plan on wintering them on their stands, and not place them on top of any colonies. This seems a better way to handle the first batches of wintering nucs, rather than trying to remove frames of brood so they won't swarm. It also allows the nucs to store combs of honey while still having combs for the queen to raise winter bees. Photos will follow when I have the time. Huh...wonder when that will be.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

I am converting everything to mediums. Do you think you can overwinter in 5 frame medium nucs? They are next to my home so checking on them or feeding them from time to time during the winter would be possible.


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## bnatural (Aug 10, 2008)

I've got eight nucs going now, as I wrote earlier they are all in polystyrene nucs. They are really rocking. Last year I noticed that, maybe due to the warmth of the boxes, maybe because they were new queens, the bees kept going and brood was hatching out really late, well into November. With the goldenrod having kicked in (my scale hive is up almost 15 pounds this week), I'm wondering how late I could split a booming nuc and start another one? I still have drones hatching out, but, if I split them this weekend, it would be into September, before the queens could go out on mating flights. I don't know if all the drones would be toast by then. The reason I ask is because I have two empty nucs that I have had set out as swarm traps all summer. My guess is that the swarm threat is pretty much past (somebody please correct me, if I'm wrong), and it would be nice to utilize those two nucs.

I DO have a possible way to cut that time down. This past weekend I found queen cells in a new hive (started from a nuc) with a new and well-laying queen (I posted on this elsewhere, because I can't figure out why a new colony in a new hive with a new (and apparently healthy) queen would start queen cells). There was one capped queen cell and two uncapped cells all on one frame. I moved the frame to a nuc (another experiment) and that queen should emerge in a couple of days. One of the other cells is now capped and the other will be capped today or tomorrow. If I can remove those cells, I could add them along with a couple of frames from the hives to those two nucs. If they don't raise queens, I can always combine later.

Do either of these ideas sound reasonable, or is it too late in the season?

I thought it was too late after mid-August to start any nucs from scratch up here, but when I found those queen cells, I figured I'd give it a shot, and that's what got me thinking about those other queen cells.

For me all this working with nucs and raising queens has been a new and grand experiment. I just don't know what the practical limits are.

Thanks,

Bill


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## giant pumpkin peep (Mar 14, 2009)

the central ohio beekeepers assoc. has a bee yard at ohio states farm. Each wensday when there isn't a lcub meeting there is a meetng at there bee meeting. Every gathering someone speeks, we talk about bees, do something the hives at the yard, and did I metion talk about bees. 

Anyway, last week joe latshaw(don't know how last name is spelled) had a presentation on overintering in styrofoam nucs. What he does is take a frame of brood and bees, put it in a styrofoam nuc, and add a queen cell that will hatch in a few days. Or use mated queen and do the split later. He said it works best with carnis because they overwinter with less bees.also the thing with styrofoa nucs is you can just pour the suger syrup right into the hive. He said a liter or so will bring it just up to the frames. I am going to try this next year. It works as a issurance policy if you loose any hives.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

Just thinking out loud, wonder if you could use medium frames in a deep nuc and put a tray in the bottom to hold syrup or dry sugar?


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

I wanted to add to M Palmers system of supering nucs. I have found you can put an excluder on a double 4 frame nuc and super them with standard supers and I rarely lose a queen. 

In addition to the double nucs made from deep hive bodies I have a 4 frame plywood nuc box thats homemade. these are nice cause they are sized to be the same outside dimensions when doubled up as a regular hive body. Again these can be fed simultaneously with top feeders or supered with an excluder. 

early nucs made up in southern Wisco by mid june when doubled up side by side can make a super of honey.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

bnatural said:


> Do either of these ideas sound reasonable, or is it too late in the season?


I think it's too late for either...in New Hampshire.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

hilreal said:


> Do you think you can overwinter in 5 frame medium nucs?


I think you probably could. I believe Webster used to use shallows in his 2 way mating nucs...4 frames each. They wintered like that. If I were to winter in mediums, I might use a 10 frame box.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Bud Dingler said:


> I wanted to add to M Palmers system of supering nucs. I have found you can put an excluder on a double 4 frame nuc and super them with standard supers and I rarely lose a queen.


I found the same thing to be true. Rarely lost a queen. I did find that if one side changed their queen, that the virgin wasn't accepted.

I also found that double nucs with a super over an excluder had no honey in the brood combs. 4 frames of brood and a huge population. I quit using the method for that reason. What have you found, Bud? Do you take off the supers in time for them to store honey from the fall flow? Do you find huge clusters and swarming on the fall flow. Do you have to feed lots of syrup?


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## MWillard (Dec 8, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> Here's another method...just this year I have set up 200+ 4 frame nucs in double nuc boxes with 4 frame supers added above. The nucs have gone wild on the foundation with this Goldenrod flow. I plan on wintering them on their stands, and not place them on top of any colonies. QUOTE]
> 
> Mike Palmer, in this method of overwintering the double nucs, are you treating them similar to production hives and wrapping them in a traditional manner? Having taken your nuc workshop in July, I have the same setup going into this winter with, 4 frame double nucs w/ 4 frame super above. Each nuc has it's own individual inner cover.
> 
> ...


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

giant pumpkin peep said:


> What he does is take a frame of brood and bees, put it in a styrofoam nuc, and add a queen cell that will hatch in a few days. Or use mated queen and do the split later. .


But what time of year does he do this?


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

1 frame of brood + a queen cell - In Maine that would work in May or early June if the flow is perfect (which it was not his year)

Please all remember that beekeeping is local.

Also if I say one thing and Michael Palmer says another, take his advice over mine. I would. 

Best, 
-Erin


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Maine_Beekeeper said:


> Also if I say one thing and Michael Palmer says another, take his advice over mine. I would. Erin


Not always, E. We should get together and talk about all the stupid mistakes I've made over the years.


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## bnatural (Aug 10, 2008)

giant pumpkin peep said:


> ...also the thing with styrofoa nucs is you can just pour the suger syrup right into the hive. He said a liter or so will bring it just up to the frames. I am going to try this next year. It works as a issurance policy if you loose any hives.


Yeah, that's how they describe it on the BetterBee website. But, have you ever looked in the bottom of a PS nuc? It gets pretty cruddy with wax cappings, bits of bees (the bees can drag the dead ones out, but legs, wings, etc. get left behind), bits of pollen, etc. I think that adding syrup to that could create a nice environment for nasties to grow. But, apparently a lot of beeks do exactly that, so maybe I'm being overcautious.

If you do try it, be very careful about condensation. I don't know about you, but I close off one of the two upper vent holes in the winter (the one facing west, the predominant wind direction) and just leave the one over the entrance open. Being plastic, the nucs really hold moisture, and I think the bees are more active all winter, since it is warmer inside, and so respire more, giving off more moisture..... With enough ventilation it is not a problem, but I consider the dry sugar MY insurance policy.




Michael Palmer said:


> I think it's too late for either...in New Hampshire.


Thanks, Michael. I needed that.

Bill


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I am converting everything to mediums. Do you think you can overwinter in 5 frame medium nucs?'

I think 8 frames is a much better bet.

> They are next to my home so checking on them or feeding them from time to time during the winter would be possible.

Except it's too cold in the winter for them to take feed... at least here it is.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Do you think you can overwinter in 5 frame medium nucs?'

A wintering cluster of bees covering 8 frames has much less surface area compared to a 4 framer and the the smaller nucs will die because they can not maintain their core temperature.
Ernie


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Look at it this way. You need some minimum sized cluster plus enough food for them for the winter. That volume seems to come out to about four deep frames as a minimum. If you convert that to mediums that's about six frames minimum. Five is just under that. I think it's safer to go a little over that instead.


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## Loonerone (May 4, 2009)

Can someone explain the benefit of overwintering in nucs? Are these splits you made and are keeping in nucs because they have a better chance of surviving the winter in smaller hive sizes? I have read the 5 pages here and am intrigued that you would keep removing brood to maintain the small size - so am wondering why all that trouble? What are the advantages? Thanks,


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## giant pumpkin peep (Mar 14, 2009)

> Can someone explain the benefit of overwintering in nucs?


If you overwinter a nuc it is a issurance policy. If you loose a hive you don't have to pay as much money for a package or a nuc, and maybe get honey on the first year of replacing the deadout.


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## bnatural (Aug 10, 2008)

giant pumpkin peep said:


> If you overwinter a nuc it is a issurance policy. If you loose a hive you don't have to pay as much money for a package or a nuc, and maybe get honey on the first year of replacing the deadout.


Also, if you DON'T need the nuc as a replacement, then it can be used either:

1) as a way to expand in the spring and make some honey from that hive that year, which is harder to do from a colony started from a package or split from that year; or

2) sell it as income, since many people want nucs in the spring.

Just a couple of additional options.

Bill


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Questions for Michael P....( or any with advice)

THis year our honey flow has been bad, so instead of wintering 30000 itialians I intend to cut them down to a 5 frame nuc.... my plan is to put a devider in a standard 10 frame box, $ frames of food, 1 of bees....

One of my questioins is how many bees do I really want??? 

until I read this my plan was to place the hives about 4 deep bodies high, (8 nucs per stack) with a SBB between layers.... from what I read this will not be enough to keep the bees from contacting each other..... why is that bad???

I am also wondering about ventilation in the smaller nucs... in a standard hive I leave teh SBB inplace and put a draft shield under it..... I am assuming you drasticly cut air intrusion in these smaller nucs???

Thanks!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Can someone explain the benefit of overwintering in nucs?

You can save $75 a package by having your own nucs to replace any losses and you can sell them for more than that if you don't need them.

> Are these splits you made and are keeping in nucs because they have a better chance of surviving the winter in smaller hive sizes?

No. They have less chance of surviving but whatever does makes a good crop of honey the next year.


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## kwest (May 16, 2009)

this is a great thread, thankyou everyone for all this great info. I was wishing i had some nucs made up then realizing i kind of do have a late split probably considerd a big nuc that i am feeding the heck out of as they are in a deep that is foundationless. they are doing good as they have 5 or 6 frames drawn.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Loonerone said:


> I have read the 5 pages here and am intrigued that you would keep removing brood to maintain the small size - so am wondering why all that trouble? What are the advantages?



*You can take advantage of the resources stored in your non-productive colonies, after the main flow is over.
*It takes less equipment and resources to winter your new queens. 
*You have these incredible life forms called nucs, that will change your beekeeping forever.


What do you do with a non-productive colony in mid-summer? Requeen it, right? And what do you get for your trouble? One colony with a new queen that might make it through your Maine winter...or...might not. If you were to split that colony up in mid-July, you could make 4-6 nucs, each with a new queen. They winter quite well on 4 or 5 combs, 2 nucs to a box. Also, you can judge these little colonies...their queens...without tying up lots of equipment.

The reason for pulling brood is so you don't have to expand the nuc. To expand them, you need twice the equipment...4 more combs, another bottom and box and cover, and another feeder if you use them. 

And...the brood you remove can be used for making more nucs, or helping out colonies that can use a boost. I have drops of 50 nucs. If I remove 45 frames of brood, that's 5 hive bodies. Place one body full of brood on the bottom board of a below average colony, and whatch out!

These nucs are amazing. They're way ahead of any package you can buy, or any split you can make. Their only focus seems to be to explode their populations. By Dandelions in Maine, on comb, they'd need to be in 2 boxes already, with a third and fourth to follow close behind.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

gmcharlie said:


> Questions for Michael P....( or any with advice)
> 
> THis year our honey flow has been bad, so instead of wintering 30000 itialians I intend to cut them down to a 5 frame nuc....



I'm not familiar with Illinois beekeeping, and when your season ends, but I would hesitate turning a colony into nucs at the end of August. Will the queens have enough time ro raise three rounds of brood and the bees have enough time to set up their little broodnests for winter?

Maybe you should feed your colony and give it pollen if they need it....so they have the resources to make the winter.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

How about if you can keep them in an unheated garage and supply feed as needed?



BEES4U said:


> Do you think you can overwinter in 5 frame medium nucs?'
> 
> A wintering cluster of bees covering 8 frames has much less surface area compared to a 4 framer and the the smaller nucs will die because they can not maintain their core temperature.
> Ernie


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> I'm not familiar with Illinois beekeeping, and when your season ends, but I would hesitate turning a colony into nucs at the end of August. Will the queens have enough time ro raise three rounds of brood and the bees have enough time to set up their little broodnests for winter?
> 
> Maybe you should feed your colony and give it pollen if they need it....so they have the resources to make the winter.


Actually we should be good until end of sept, possible mid to late Oct before the first frost.....

why do the queens need 3 rounds brood before winter?? seems to me a frame of existing brood from a hive would suffice?


pollen is not aviliable and feed is getting outlandish..... its not beekeeping to feed a 60.00 package 100.00 worth of feed....... since winter reserves here are going to be so slim, I intended to rob store from the big hives to to help the little ones.......

Last year one hive ate over 200lbs of honey, that would have kept 6 nucs all winter with no problem.... so my plan to cut them to nucs this year... yes I will get some losses instead of none, but my only other choice is to feed more sugar than they are worth, or allow 30 or so hives to die off entirely.


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

*Medium nucs*

I winter quite a few medium nucs. I winter them as 10 frames though or sometimes 15 if they are really strong. Just 5 frame medium nuc boxes stacked on top of each other and wrapped and set up like the regular 10 frame ones. 
To check them in the fall I just take them apart like a regular hive. After wrapping the boxes can't be separated until spring but you wont be checking them until late winter / early spring anyway and by then all what you will be looking for (bees/cluster size) will be in the top box. 

Here's a picture - there are more in the photobucket album as well:
http://s76.photobucket.com/albums/j... setup/?action=view&current=April82008007.jpg

-Erin


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

gmcharlie said:


> why do the queens need 3 rounds brood before winter?? seems to me a frame of existing brood from a hive would suffice?


The bees have to establish their broodnest, and set it up for winter. Just adding some brood, and getting the queen laying isn't enough. The bees from one frame of brood aren't enough. Right now, my nucs have 3-4 frames of brood in a four frame cavity. I pull one good frame of brood, and add an empty comb against the divider. She'll fill that in no time. The flow will end soon, and nights are getting colder. Swarming will stop soon. From then on, the bees decrease the brood area by storing what nectar they can, and from feeding. They've stored pollen under the honey for spring use. All this the same as a full size colony.

So, I don't think a frame of brood at the end of August will work. My bees shut down in October, too. But the bulk of their set up is finished before the end of September. That's less than 5 weeks away.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> The bees have to establish their broodnest, and set it up for winter. Just adding some brood, and getting the queen laying isn't enough. The bees from one frame of brood aren't enough. Right now, my nucs have 3-4 frames of brood in a four frame cavity. I pull one good frame of brood, and add an empty comb against the divider. She'll fill that in no time. .


Mike et. al, 
What do you think of this scenario. Most of my group down here in VA start our overwinter nucs in July with new queens as per your recommendations. I had no plans to start any nucs in August, but I caught a small swarm on August 10th and a few days later gave it 2 frames of brood. It is now a "bonus nuc" that I plan on pairing next to another deep nuc I started in July. Without the brood infusion, I would not have considered it, but at last check, Miss Queenie seems to be laying quite well. I can not determine if this swarm even came from my apiary, but if she did, she would have been a newly made queen this Spring at the earliest. If nothing else, will be a good experiment.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Thanks Michael, puts me in a bind though... given that scenario I have about 20 hives that will be done in.... they only have 2-3 frames total, and no food stores to speak of.......... Moved several to sunflowers just today, but not much chance of them getting much growth in the next 4 weeks.
Now I will have to do a bit more thinking


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Karla - 
Your new baby "nuc" sounds like fun!
Swarms are so well organized plus your brood frames are a huge boost! 
I think you'll be amazed that they'll do fantastically. 
Just keep feed on them plus pollen substitute if you can. Make it easy for them and they'll do it!
This is the one to start working gloveless. They'll be so focused on their own thing they wont bother you at all if you're gentle.
-E.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Michael, this year I did a couple two queen hives. I did something similar to the Demaree method. In late May I split the double deep and put one or two deeps of undrawn frames between the two, making sure I had eggs and larva in box brood boxes. My goal was to have a two queen hive (it works) and the queens would eventually end up in one box and one would eliminate the other. It would allow me to have a two queen hive during the summer, and an easy way to requeen.

I peeked in the other day and the 4th deep is packed full of brood. If I make sure the queen is in that box, can I split that box from the hive and treat it like a 10 frame nuc? (and bypass the requeening) Or would I be better off just allowing the two queen hive merge into a one queen hive?


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

gmcharlie said:


> Thanks Michael, puts me in a bind though... given that scenario I have about 20 hives that will be done in.... they only have 2-3 frames total, and no food stores to speak of.......... Moved several to sunflowers just today, but not much chance of them getting much growth in the next 4 weeks.
> Now I will have to do a bit more thinking


I have the same problem with a few of my hives as gmcharlie. 3 frames of bees and brood, no growth (for a month or more) and little stored. I have requeened, added frames of brood, and added frames of bees. They always just go back to 3, never expanding. 

I have resigned myself to combining, but I wonder if anyone has any other solutions?


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## Aram (May 9, 2006)

I have a similar hive. It started as a really small swarm at the end of June and went between 3-4 frames all summer. They seem stuck at a bellow critical number. The queen fills all the frames with brood and there just aren't enough bees to keep up with her. They never stored anything. And I suspect they destroy the brood they can't rear. I just started feeding and plan to not let them run out of syrup for five six weeks. Could be they are stuck. If they don't grow combining is not a bad idea either. Three frames will not make it.


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## Aram (May 9, 2006)

Awesome thread, by the way. Is there a way I can save the thread so I can refer to it later?


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## bnatural (Aug 10, 2008)

Just remember the title and you will be able to find it by doing a search.

Or, copy and paste into a Word document.

Bill


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## tbb39 (Jun 9, 2007)

*when to start*

great thread, just read all 7 pages, I live in Michigan, is there a target date I should start nucs? I will be letting them make there own queens and using 10 frame deeps?


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Aram - 

re:>> I have a similar hive. It started as a really small swarm at the end of June and went between 3-4 frames all summer. They seem stuck at a bellow critical number. The queen fills all the frames with brood and there just aren't enough bees to keep up with her. They never stored anything. And I suspect they destroy the brood they can't rear. I just started feeding and plan to not let them run out of syrup for five six weeks. Could be they are stuck. If they don't grow combining is not a bad idea either. Three frames will not make it.

Feed them. It sounds like you are asking them to do it on their own and they are only able to maintain with the foragers and flow they are on. FEED FEED FEED. 1-1 now for the next month or so (and pollen substitute, make it or buy it) and then switch to 2-1. 
They need lots of incoming nectar (or sugar water) to create the wax to draw comb - they also need warm temps which (at least here) are quickly coming to an end. 

I caught a swarm in a swarm trap last Thursday that has literally drawn out a full 10 frame deep in 7 days because I am (as Jennifer Berry would say it) "Feeding the snot out of 'em"

Feeding makes a huge difference. 
-E.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Countryboy said:


> I peeked in the other day and the 4th deep is packed full of brood. If I make sure the queen is in that box, can I split that box from the hive and treat it like a 10 frame nuc? (and bypass the requeening) Or would I be better off just allowing the two queen hive merge into a one queen hive?


Several have asked this question. Been trying to answer...too tired from nuc work...and...

I'd like to answer with some photos of my setup. Can't find the original photos in my files. They are on a powerpoint, though. Can't seem to copy from there to photobucket. 

Any ideas?


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Hi Mike - 
I've asked my IT savvy beekeeper friend how to do this - hopefully he'll have a way for you - 
I'll let you know what he says. 
-E.


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## JPK (May 24, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> They are on a powerpoint, though. Can't seem to copy from there to photobucket.
> 
> Any ideas?


Open the .ppt's and then go to File-Save As and choose a format that photobucket will accept (gif,jpg etc etc.)


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## bnatural (Aug 10, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> SCan't find the original photos in my files. They are on a powerpoint, though. Can't seem to copy from there to photobucket.
> 
> Any ideas?


If you want to save them as individual images, right click on the image and copy, then in your photo software package of choice (I use GIMP 2 - free and easy), create a new blank image, and paste the photo into it. Adjust as needed. Then, do a 'Save As' as a jpeg you can then upload.

Bill


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I winter singles, too. Usually left over mediums from nuking colonies. Sometimes deeps with a good queen and a decent population. Either size has to be full of young bees and packed with feed. I don't bother trying to winter weak clusters, poor queens, or disease/viruses/high mite loads.

I don't expect the quality of these pictures to be great, but you'll get the idea.

I winter my singles on top of a production colony's inner cover. I use a second inner cover turned rim up as the single's bottom board. Both escape homes are taped closed and no communication betwen bottom colony and single. The inner cover notch acts as bottom entrance. I add a third inner cover with rim down and notch acts like upper entrance. Good air flow is necessary.











To wrap for winter, I use 2" foam on top inner cover. 2 wraps...one for production hive and one for single makes it easy to check in early spring. Just have to remove top wrapper.











This is what they look like in the spring. This is just after snow melt in Vermont. Good bees will maintain their cluster as it went into the winter. Quiet bees on capped feed will remain quiet on the combs and the cluster won't lose many bees. If they're just a weak colony in one box, with a population of predominately old bees, and couldn't set up their broodnest for winter, they probably won't make it.


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Hi Mike - 
Thanks for posting the photos - I don't think I've seen those shots before. 
Interesting with your inner covers setup. I like the elegance of "standard" equipment. 

I ran across one of your queens the other day - checking in my nuc yard and found a beautiful very black queen, sweet dark workers and fantastic brood pattern - and the queen had a perfect paint dot. I immediately thought "this is one of Mike's" and of course on checking my notes it was. 

The nucs are setting up well for winter - I'm amazed at how much honey they have packed away in just a few weeks. 
Keeping fingers crossed for a winter that is kind to bees...

-E.


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## Motown (Jun 17, 2009)

Erin, 

On a similar note, if you're "Feeding the snot out of 'em", how late into the season will you still be producing new brood? 

I have a 10 medium frames of bees and I'm going to "Feeding the snot out of 'em", I'm just wondering if I can grow out enough bees for the winter, and how much time I have left. 

Does anyone have a "seasonal" tie in that lets them know when brood production will stop? Something like 2 week before last frost?

Thanks


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Around here most colonies never completely stop raising brood, though some do. Whenever we have a decent amount of rain at regular intervals, during the Winter, the bees respond as if it were already Spring. About two seasons ago we had abundant late Winter and early Spring rains (quite uncommon), which brought out a modest honeyflow, in late January through mid-March, from plants that only appear when it rains sufficiently during the cooler times of the year. I especially noticed the red stem filaree, which provides bright blue pollen and rape with its yellow flowers and pollen.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Motown said:


> On a similar note, if you're "Feeding the snot out of 'em", how late into the season will you still be producing new brood?
> 
> Does anyone have a "seasonal" tie in that lets them know when brood production will stop? Something like 2 week before last frost?


Nucs will continue to produce brood later in the season than production colonies. My productin colonies are mostly shut down later in October. You can still find some brood in some of them even into November. The nucs will still have lots of eggs and young larvae at that time. Not sure why...either the dynamics of nucs, or the young queen.

I've never seen and seasonal tie. Every colony is different.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Maine_Beekeeper said:


> Hi Mike -
> I ran across one of your queens the other day - checking in my nuc yard and found a beautiful very black queen, sweet dark workers and fantastic brood pattern - and the queen had a perfect paint dot. I immediately thought "this is one of Mike's" and of course on checking my notes it was. -E.


Cool! Green dot or Red?


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## Motown (Jun 17, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> Nucs will continue to produce brood later in the season than production colonies. My productin colonies are mostly shut down later in October. You can still find some brood in some of them even into November. The nucs will still have lots of eggs and young larvae at that time. Not sure why...either the dynamics of nucs, or the young queen.
> 
> I've never seen and seasonal tie. Every colony is different.


Mike, Thanks for the answer two fold! First, I needed to know, and second, the information was what I was hoping to hear.

:applause:


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Mike- 
Green. Notes say #33
-E.


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## whodoctor (Oct 29, 2007)

*Question for Michael Palmer*

Michael,

I'm a 3rd year beekeeper.

Thanks for your contributions to self-sufficient beekeeping. I attended the Northeast Treatment-Free conference (and your talk on creating 4-frame double nucs for overwintering) in my hometown of Leominster, MA this year, and then created 6 nucs (3, 4-frame double nucs) even though it was really "a bit too late" in the season. They were created just about August 20th. I just didn't want to lose the chance to learn something new right away and didn't mind sacrificing a colony for the lessons. I installed 4 Russian queens from the Russian queen breeders program, kept the Italian queen from the parent colony, and allowed the bees to create their own 6th queen, making sure they were set up to do so. It seems to have gone well.

I used Snelgrove bottom boards to double as an inner cover for the production colony and a bottom board for the nucs. This way I would provide nuc entrances on the sides, to prevent drifting to and from the production colony and to have entrances that did not face the prevailing winds, which are very strong here as we have no trees for over 100 acres, and are high up in elevation. I used duct taped tar paper on the nuc-side of the double screened Snelgrove bb to block the moisture from the production colony from entering the nucs. I felt that the single layer of wood between the colonies would help with radiant heat as well. I had to buy equipment because I didn't have extra inner covers. I thought Snellgrove bottom boards would be a neat solution. So far so good.

Checked in on the 6 nucs a couple days ago and they are all still alive and at the same strength as when they were put up, which is encouraging. I fed them pollen patty and sugar water in late September / October / November and put bee candy on them in mid-December, which they are eating. I put more sugar candy on when I checked them. I will put pollen on them on February 1st and continue the bee candy feed until temps are warm again. Of course I'm still not sure that they'll make it into Spring, as this is the first attempt with a pretty late start, and Winter is still very young, but we're giving it a good try.

My question is this: What happens to the flight orientation of the bees in these nucs when they get moved from their hive stands to the top of the production colonies, about 2 to 30 feet total distance, in both late Fall and then again in early Spring. 

Also, when do I move them back onto their own stands in the Spring time? Am I over-thinking this? I don't want them to orient to the top of the production colonies, nor do I want to move them too early and have them lose the benefit of the small bit of heat they get from the production colony. Either way, I will leave them wrapped to collect the sun's heat, until they are well established.

Thanks again for sharing this idea with us. This strikes me as the most important thing in beekeeping that I've learned this past year.


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Overwintering nucs can lead to significant colony increase.
Just warning you. 
http://overlandhoney.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/overland-overwinter-nucs-1024x333.jpg


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

>>Whodoctor
"this strikes me as the most important thing I've learned this past year."

How to create and overwinter nucs may be the most important thing you ever learn about beekeeping. 

Glad to hear you are learning and growing your beekeeping skills. 

Best to you and your bees. 
-E.


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## whodoctor (Oct 29, 2007)

Erin, That's a great picture! Thanks for sending it along! Are you the beekeeper that Mike Palmer makes reference to in his overwintering nucs talk? I've gone from 2 to 7 to 18 colonies. I'm really just starting to catch on a little bit and feel like a beekeeper. This 4th year is going to be a good one if winter treats me well. I don't treat my colonies, at all, so I need to make sure i have a lot of bees for natural selection to take its place. I do take very good care of my bees though. I'll keep as many hives as i can. Go big or go home! I started these 8 nucs very late though, so I'm hoping for the best, but not expecting much. When should I move the colonies off of the production colonies?


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

whodoctor said:


> When should I move the colonies off of the production colonies?


That is the million dollar quesition. Not that I am any expert, I only did this one year so far, but we did it as a group, so at least we have our combined experience to offer. Last year I put 2 into winter and took out 2. This year, I put 9 nucs in to winter. In our experience it was very early in the Spring season that appeared to be the right time to put them into bigger bodies. Mike talks a lot about dandelion flow as a marker. Down here in Northern VA that was not a great indicator for us for this particular task, we do not have fields of dandelions. What our group observed was that by the time the cherry blossom trees were out, it is almost too late to move the nucs into full hive bodies. We had several of them swarm, even after moving them onto full hive bodies. For us, that means late March might be the time, but I still think it is better to go by what is blooming more than the physical date. I will also add, that we were like new parents last year. Late march felt too cold, we worried and fretted night and day about our poor nucs, would they be OK, people kept telling us "don't rush Spring" and we waited, and many of them swarmed. We'll see how we do this year. It is great to share our experiences on bee source.
PS- I am talking here only about single story deep nucs. This year we are experimenting with double story nucs, and both deep and medium nucs. That might effect timing.


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

I unpack my nucs around April 1 - April 15. This is not the same as transferring to bigger equipment. This is getting them off the hives below and to their own place. I want them off the big colonies before everyone starts flying regularly. 

At this time I pick a nice day and move them off the hive above (or spread them out from the winter wrap.) Anyone who is hungry gets a frame of honey or honey/pollen if I can remove a frame. If they are boomers and hungry, I'll give them a medium nuc above with stores in it. 

I then sell my nucs for pickup around May 1-15 or transfer to bigger equipment at that time if I'm keeping them for myself. I do not transfer to big equipment until the dandelion flow is on - I don't want to double their space when they don't have reliable incoming food and I try not to feed until the night time temps are generally above freezing (May). (Dandelion)

Hope this helps, 
-E.


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## whodoctor (Oct 29, 2007)

Thanks for sharing your experiences! My concern is mostly about the reorientation of the bees in Fall and Spring. I put them up after they stop flying in late fall, and I want to take them down before they reorient to their temporary position on the production colony in the Spring. I even worry about loss of bees during the warm spells that we get in January where the bees fly quite a bit. The next few days will be like this here in the 40s and 50s. Watching them fly on a warm day is like watching mass suicide. Being so new, and having dived in so deep, I feel a bit over-concerned about the bees. The lessons will bear themselves out, but of course I'd rather insight AND experience.

The dates in Maine and here in North Central MA will be relatively similar. We have about 300 acres of mowed field (boo) around us so the dandelions are impossible to miss. I'm not sure if my nucs will make it this year. They were such small clusters when I put them up for winter, but next year I'll start them mid July so they'll be fine based on what I'm reading from all of you guys. I'll be putting pollen patties on all 18 colonies today.

I hope to see 8 live nucs though only 6 looked good at last check 10 days ago.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

whodoctor said:


> Being so new, and having dived in so deep, I feel a bit over-concerned about the bees. The lessons will bear themselves out, but of course I'd rather insight AND experience.


The first nucs I EVER made were the two I made going into winter in 2008. 4 of us made 8 overwintered nucs. 7 survived. Not bad, but lots of beginners luck maybe. Now I am a nuc making fool. I can totally relate to your sentiment, but only time is going to give us the experience we crave. I find that by working in our group, we gain lots of experience. Beesource is second best thing to your own local group to share with.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

*Re: Question for Michael Palmer*



whodoctor said:


> My question is this: What happens to the flight orientation of the bees in these nucs when they get moved from their hive stands to the top of the production colonies, about 2 to 30 feet total distance, in both late Fall and then again in early Spring.
> 
> Also, when do I move them back onto their own stands in the Spring time? Am I over-thinking this? I don't want them to orient to the top of the production colonies, nor do I want to move them too early and have them lose the benefit of the small bit of heat they get from the production colony. Either way, I will leave them wrapped to collect the sun's heat, until they are well established.
> 
> Thanks again for sharing this idea with us. This strikes me as the most important thing in beekeeping that I've learned this past year.


Of course they will orient to where they are. Moving them within the yard will lose field bees.

I move my nucs from one yard to another, so there is no problem with orientation. If you are moving them within the yard, I would do it after flight has finished for the year, or before spring flights start. 

Better to move them to a holding yard at least 3 miles away. Then you can transfer them into 10 frame equipment and move them back a few weeks later.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

This might be another thread you were looking for
123456

I often will copy a paste an entire thread into a word document.. and then title it by subject. I have so much to learn, that I read these at different times and pick up different things, based on my changing level of experience.

Another way to look for stuff is to go to statistics under someone's name and find all of their posts. That can help you find the threads you are looking for.


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

BINGO! Thanks Karla.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

123456 said:


> BINGO! Thanks Karla.


Mike also found an older thread and bumped it up so that you can see it in the forum. It is in the beekeeping 101 forum.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

winevines said:


> In our experience it was very early in the Spring season that appeared to be the right time to put them into bigger bodies. Mike talks a lot about dandelion flow as a marker. Down here in Northern VA that was not a great indicator for us for this particular task, we do not have fields of dandelions. What our group observed was that by the time the cherry blossom trees were out, it is almost too late to move the nucs into full hive bodies. We had several of them swarm, even after moving them onto full hive bodies. For us, that means late March might be the time,


i wanted to add a few notes to what I posted in January of this year based on what we have learned in Northern VA and the mid Atlantic area in case folks are obsessively searching on overwintered nuc information right now. 'Tis the season. 

After year 2- working with a group of us making overwintered nucs in a variety of configurations, 2 story, 1 story, single brood box, etc. our consensus was very similar this year to last year, even though we had an extremely cold winter, 6 feet of snow, etc. in 2009/10 whereas 2008/9 was very mild. Seemed to make NO DIFFERENCE at all. Spring Equinox, March 21st (and less than 2 weeks before cherry tree bloom) was the average ideal time to take OW nucs and move them into larger equipment. Some nucs swarmed anyway- appearned to have made little difference if they were 1 story overwintered nucs or 2 story nucs. What appeared to make a difference was that some of the 2 story DEEP nucs gave you an extra week or two in Spring to get your act together- but as I said, some of those swarmed anyway. Some of the nucs that seemed weakest in March, were the ones that did not swarm and did just fine. Still lots to learn, so just my 2 cents based on our experience. 

The pros and cons of and real need for winter feeding and Spring management of OW nucs are two areas that we have lots still to learn and I would appreciate hearing from more folks over this 2010/2011 OW nuc season.


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## Rob73 (Apr 19, 2009)

I am new, so be easy! What is the purpose of keeping so many nucs? Are they to sell in the spring? I am missing something here.

Rob


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## slickbrightspear (Jan 9, 2009)

you can increase your number of hives or repopulate dead outs or sell them.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Rob73 said:


> I am new, so be easy! What is the purpose of keeping so many nucs? Are they to sell in the spring? I am missing something here.
> 
> Rob


This thread is long- start from the top and see if that helps. There is another thread- search on 123456 with a lot of good information.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

As I was rereading this thread I was wondering how Mike P's double deep divided nucs (dddn) overwintering success compared to his double-deep-divided-over-another-colony-nucs (dddoacn) success.
The reason I am interested is that as a short beekeeper with a single yard I do not like stacks too tall. Also if overwintering dddn are an option then they can be set up on their overwintering sites early enough that drift back to their original location on warm days will not be an issue.
Thanks, Adrian.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> how Mike P's double deep divided nucs (dddn) overwintering success compared to his double-deep-divided-over-another-colony-nucs (dddoacn) success.The reason I am interested is that as a short beekeeper with a single yard I do not like stacks too tall. Also if overwintering dddn are an option then they can be set up on their overwintering sites early enough that drift back to their original location on warm days will not be an issue.
> Thanks, Adrian.


There are surely a lot of opinions out there and folks with more experience than me. My 2 cents- from what I have heard from others, and from what I have experienced in my region (mid Atlantic) is that stacking overwintered nucs over production colonies is unnecessary- even up North. It is helpful if you regularly get more than 4 feet of snow a year (since you want to keep an entrance open). But in 2009/2010 we DID in fact get two big storms of 3 feet of snow each and overwintered nucs on ground stands were just fine! Check em out here: http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l224/winevines/Winter%20Solstice%20Bees%202009/

As for drifting when you make the nucs up- the best practice is to move them 3 miles or more. This has not been real feasable for me.... so I move them across the street at best. I think if you make them up early enough (early July) then they are able to recover from any drifting. One thing I did notice is that this year for the first time I left one nuc in the same position as the hive I broke down, and now there are tons of bees bearded out in front of it- all the foragers returning to it I guess. Duh- Guess I conveinantly forgot about that potential, so I plan to put a 2nd story on that particular nuc to give it some more space.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

winevines said:


> .... in case folks are obsessively searching on overwintered nuc information right now.


Obsessive? OK, maybe. I did get back to this thread through the search engine. Glad to see it is being added to. 

I'm also interested also in MP's experiment with leaving nucs on the stands rather than on top of production hives. Karla says she hears that overwintering on top of production hives is not necessary here in the north but the people I know of that do it successfully have been doing it on top of other hives. Ergo, my interest in Michael Palmer's experience. 

Last winter, at least here in Western Maine, was relatively mild (no frozen water pipes, which is my main indicator) with few extended periods even into the minus 20s. Not sure that last winter would be a good test period for MP's experiment.

I suspect that Adrian's climate is more like my own than Karla's. Here, a three foot snowstorm or two is not very noteworthy but for the fact that it merely adds to number of unmelted feet of snow still on the ground lasting into March...April...May....Even here though, snow generally melts away a few inches fast enough from even bottom entrances so as to hardly ever be an issue. But the bone-numbing temps that I am used to experiencing here in Maine and back in the Adirondacks tell me that overwintering on top of other hives is still worthy of consideration.

Height shouldn't seem to be too much of a concern. On top of the production hive brood boxes, the nucs shouldn't be even as high as the honey supers during the flow.

Wayne


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## mcooper (Dec 3, 2009)

My little " experiment" was building up a 10 frame nuc using 2 boxes. It took some work getting the nuc to make it's own queen this summer, but I eventually got great brood patterns and the queen built up well into the fall. The hive is strong and bringing in lots of pollen in. I overwintered it in. westpoint, ms. I am definately going to try and overwinter 2-3 five frame nucs next winter.


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

MWillard said:


> ...I live in northern Vermont...


Rub it in, why don't ya...


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Since we sell nucs, we overwinter them also in two deep nuc boxes. TK


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Maine_Beekeeper said:


> Mike-
> Green. Notes say #33
> -E.


This sounds like one of Joe Latshaw's girls, Mike? I think we saw some of those in nucs last spring.


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Since we sell nucs, we overwinter them also in two deep nuc boxes. TK


Ted, i think you and i are the only ones in this state that overwinter nucs down here. Unless you know of someone else... But I don't really count because my overwintered nucs are 25 miles north of the border in Tenn.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

One day soon, sooner than you think, those bees will be south of the border. I do not mean the Mexican border either. No, we overwinter them in two deep nucs boxes for quick splitting. The long range goal is to overwinter 500 of them. Not every nuc makes it. I think we now have winters more like Northern Kentucky or Southern Ohio used to have. So much for global warming. There is an art to overwintering a nuc. Mike is overwintering them in Vermont, well my hat is off to him. TK


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

fatscher said:


> This sounds like one of Joe Latshaw's girls, Mike? I think we saw some of those in nucs last spring.


That's right. A daughter of a Latshaw Karnica. Monster queens with big hairy legs.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

> Monster queens with big hairy legs.


Boy, that statement brings a lot of non-PC comments to mind. 

Thanks for the laugh!

Tom


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## MWillard (Dec 8, 2008)

fatscher said:


> Rub it in, why don't ya...


As a bonus I have one of the great ones in MP just a few minutes away from me. It couldn't get much better.....


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Mike, Fatscher,What you boys been doing up there in Vermont??? Crossing Yooper queens with bigfoot??? Is the offspring mite resistant??? TK


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Crossing Yooper queens with bigfoot???


Maybe these bees can force their way across the border!:lookout:


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