# Cheaper Wood?



## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Michael Palmer has made comments about the low price he pays per board foot for hive box lumber in his area. I am not that far from him (relatively) in SE New Hampshire but can’t seem to find comparable prices to what he has mentioned in dimensioned lumber (have checked as far as southern Maine). I am able to find similar prices in rough cut green wood from local mills so I wonder if that is what anyone is using. With that being asked, follow up questions are:

Do you use rough cut green wood?
How do you treat the green wood before building boxes with it? 
Do you air dry it for XX time first?
If not, is there any issue with shrinkage as the wood dries (Ie. Boxes getting to tight for frames, etc)?
Do you then use a thickness planer to finish the stock to depth?
Have you tried hemlock (lots of old barns are made from it around here)?

Any tips on cheaper wood are appreciated!


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

I use rough or planed, whatever I can get cheapest after adding my cost to plane. 
I would not use green wood as it is harder on the tools and continues to change and not always at a predictable rate.
If I had green lumber I would dry it for several months before making any cut.
Pine and cypress are most prevalent around here.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Fishman43 said:


> How do you treat the green wood before building boxes with it?
> Do you air dry it for XX time first?


Courtesy of Vermont Dept of Forests, here is info on _air _drying of green lumber:
http://www.vtfpr.org/pdf/drylumber.pdf

If you use green lumber for hives (not kiln dried or not air dried), you will almost certainly have problems with those hive bodies as the wood reaches equilibrium.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I pick up rough cut from a local mill. Usually local mills do not cut green wood, they cut wet wood. The logs have been cut for a while and stacked whole until needed. The bees get left overs from other work unless I get going on making boxes. If the mill is not cutting slab firewood or chipping there is some slab wood cut with wane and that is thrown into the slab pile. Plenty for hives if you are there at the right time.

Kiln dry in the rain is going to swell, wet is going to shrink in the sun. My eyes and hands are a bigger problem than my wood.

Green wood shrinks more than wet. The cells have lost some internal water and most of the water is between cells when wet and not green. I rough plane to 7/8 and air dry for a while. If I needed a box and all I had was green I would cut it a little over and not worry about it after a few screws. Wood shrinks more in width than length, even in a deep with wet you will lose maybe an 8th, green maybe more but I have not needed to try green.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

I tried asking for the slab scrap piles as well and most of the yard staff has dibs on it for their wood furnaces. I found a local guy that has a large wood mizer type mill so his wood may still be green not just wet.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I use shorts and industrial grade. Shorts are 2-4' lengths, with some flaw, cut off the end of a long board so the remaining board is higher grade. Most mills that plane and kiln dry will have something like this. Or...industrial grade...good enough for bee hives.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Hemlock;
Works great if it stays wet or it stays dry. It can rot quickly if it gets wet and then drys repeatedly. That is what I find, have never read anybody say the same though. Painted box should be fine but I have not used, pine is easier to get and work. Dry hemlock it is a little hard to work as it splits unless you blunt the nail or drill. If I am going to build with hemlock I like it wet or green not dry. Nail it wet it will not split. Nail it dry it will.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I have been using pine, cypress, and poplar rough saw for years. I pick boards that are at least 10 3/4 width, either 7/8 or 1 inch thickness. I strip stack and let it air dry for approximately one year. Pine, cypress and poplar will shrink about 3/4 inch in width, ( a 10 3/4 wide board), and about 1/16 in thickness. I have never tested length.

Locally, saw mill pine is $.50 board ft, cypress is $.80 bdf, and poplar is $.46 bdf.

cchoganjr


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## timgoodin (Mar 10, 2007)

Cleo, what kind of life do you get on the poplar? 

I remember as a kid, my dad cut the poplar logs, we hauled them to the mill and built all our tobacco barns out of rough cut poplar lumber. I know the outside boxing has since rotted away on the barns, granted they were not painted regularly and not at all the last 20 years.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Unpainted poplar will last 25 to 40 years. . Virtually every barn door in Kentucky is made with poplar. Very few are ever painted. Bee boxes painted or some other preservative will last forever. It is a little heavier than pine, but it is plentiful here, and almost all my honey supers are made with poplar. One caution, you must let it season, ( 9 months to 1 year), or have it kiln dried because it will shrink about 3/4 inch in width, if you start with an eleven inch board. After seasoning, it works really well.

cchoganjr


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> I use shorts and industrial grade. Shorts are 2-4' lengths, with some flaw, cut off the end of a long board so the remaining board is higher grade. Most mills that plane and kiln dry will have something like this. Or...industrial grade...good enough for bee hives.


I can find Shorts about 2Mi from me 6'X 3/4" X 4,6,8,10,12 in. wide about $0.60 board ft #2 pine all plane and kiln dry 


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I am half way into the experiment! $400/1000 BF hemlock, stickered it to dry. 
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/hemlock2.jpg
1 yr/ inch dry time, I would not use green. Last spring I made frames out of it (not side bars had a 2x6 for them). No issues yet on the100 I built.
Dewalt Thickness planer. 
hemlock
Wood Some good advice here about my stickers should have been further out. Spent about a day running wood through the planer. Problem was that I have ADD real bad. I had all this planed lumber I was cutting into boxes and found I needed to do something to do with all my apples. So I changed directions and made this
http://i1141.photobucket.com/albums/n599/6minz/DSCF4129.jpg
Problem was I needed some white oak for the basket and grate. Found some scrap by the pound (S4S) and found that buying wood by the pound is not cost effective when you have a planer.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

The article above is good on drying, as is the above info. 1 year per inch is a general time frame to get the wood down to as low (12-18% MC) as it will be until it's moved inside. In my experience poplar moves a ton so I wouldn't use it unless it's been brought in after it's dried. I wish I could get poplar for under a dollar a board foot.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

If you are doing a detailed cost comparison remember that a rough cut 1x10 will usually stay wide enough for a deep, a 1x6 makes a shallow. Every log is cut a little differently and each tree drys a little differently, but I usually have enough. If not it does not get wasted.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Saltybee.... My experience is that a rough cut 10 inch will not cure and give you a 9 5/8 or 9 9/16 finished board. You will need 1/16 for surfacing the two edges, and, poplar, cypress, and pine will shrink at least 3/4 to 7/8 inch in width, which means you need at least 7/8 to one inch more rough cut, than you will need when cured and surfaced.. I have all my pine, cypress, and poplar that I buy rough cut, cut at 11 inches for deeps, and 7 inch for shallows. 

One full year with the rough cut, strip stacked inside, will get the moisture content down to 11% to 15 %. Good enough for bee boxes. I normally let mine set about a year to a year and a half. If possible, purchase your rough cut, sawed from logs cut in the Winter time, especially pine. It will cure better

delber... Guess we are just lucky here, we can get poplar for anywhere from $.25 bf to $.50 bf, with most wanting $.48 bf for select, no knots, cut to 11 inch width, but, take whatever length they provide. Length doesn't really matter, so, I take whatever they provide, and they figure the bf in the bundle that I get. Most of the saw mills here are Amish and they are very nice to work with. 

cchoganjr


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Cleo, 
The slower a tree grows the less it shrinks even in the same species. Edges of the log shrink more than centers. Mostly I think it depends on the mill, I find the ends are the thinnest and the middle thicker on the boards I get. The carriage wears the most in the middle of a mill.
Your right though, I would not buy a lot without trying a few boards until I knew how a mill worked out dry.


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## timgoodin (Mar 10, 2007)

So is it better to cut a log now and let it lay and dry out until next fall to have it sawed up or go ahead and have it sawed now and then let the lumber dry for a year? 

Tim


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

It's fine to do either with the log. Make sure you seal the end of the log though. This is very important!!! If you don't you'll end up with about a food or two of the log that won't be useable. It would still be very wet / green at the end of the year so if it were me I'd cut it up now rather than wait. I know I've passed places that have piles of logs drying down in Va I think, but they have a process of spraying water on them at certain intervals. I don't know if it was once per day, twice per day or every other day or what. All I know is they had piles of logs and I saw them spraying them with an automatic sprinkler. I would immagine that this would stop the ends from drying so fast. Regardless you'll still need to seal the ends of the boards to reduce end checks. The end grane loses moisture much faster than the face of the board causing the end to shrink before the middle of the board is ready causing end checks. (or end cracks)


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Delber are you saying paint the ends of the boards?? I have never done this, and yes, I do often get a crack 4 to 6 inches long on the ends of the boards. Most of my boards are never square, and their 10 foot boards are normally 10ft, 6 inches long. That has made up for the end cracks. If paint on the ends will reduce or eliminate this, I will start painting them after they are stacked..

Thanks.

cchoganjr


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> I have never done this, and yes, I do often get a crack 4 to 6 inches long on the ends of the boards.


At one time I was considering buying a mill, and spent some time reading up on small mill issues. 

You might be interested in this discussion of log _end checking_ on a forestry forum.
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=7384.0


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

I buy rough cut green wood in the spring and store it in my shop until it is ready to be used. I store it stacked with stickers (spacers) between each layer of boards and a space between boards of each layer. It takes several months for it to dry enough.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Cheaper wood is not the same as the best wood. The more you invest the better the product. What I will do to have a box now is not what I will do to have the box I really want. A piece of wood trim inside the house is another step up.
Cheaper now or cheaper later is a whole different debate.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Our local saw mill has a sprinkler system that keeps the logs that are yarded, waiting for sawing, wet, during the Summer months. They do this to keep the bark soft because the bark is removed with rolling cutters before the log is sawed. This bark is then sold for mulch.

The deal I make for pine and poplar is, $.50 a board foot, any length the mill has, they pick the boards as they cut (almost all knot free, only small solid knots, no knots on edges of board) and when they get 500 board foot they call and I go pick up, strip stack it for 12 to 18 months. I find I need 11 inch width boards to cure and have enough to cut 9 9/16 boxes after curing. All of my pine, cypress, and poplar is cut 11 inches for deeps and 7 inches for shallows.

cchoganjr


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Guess we are just lucky here, we can get poplar for anywhere from $.25 bf to $.50 bf, with most wanting $.48 bf for select, no knots, cut to 11 inch width


I would say you are lucky Cleo. Around here, I can get air dried pine at $0.75 bf, and that's the best I've been able to find. I can get green wood for $0.55 bf, and I've found a spot an hour and a half away from me that sells their unusable boards at $0.50 bf. The boards are labeled kiln dried, but the place says they are air dried. Usually they are cupping somewhat, and about one third have a crack down 1/4 of the board, sometimes more.

Even still, at $0.50 bf it beats lowes or home depot prices. And if 1/4 of the board isn't useable as a hive body, I can still trim it down and use it for other things.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Delber are you saying paint the ends of the boards?? I have never done this, and yes, I do often get a crack 4 to 6 inches long on the ends of the boards. Most of my boards are never square, and their 10 foot boards are normally 10ft, 6 inches long. That has made up for the end cracks. If paint on the ends will reduce or eliminate this, I will start painting them after they are stacked..
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> cchoganjr


Yes I'm saying that I paint the end grane of the board. The key is to paint them ASAP. I painted the ends of a white oak log the same day that they were cut which was only about a week or so after it was felled and there are very few checks. Just use some cheap paint and a small roller is all you need. It will help a lot.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I guess I just never noticed it, but, some of the cypress boards have been painted blue.

ATTACH=CONFIG]3545[/ATTACH]

cchoganjr[


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Saltybee said:


> Cheaper wood is not the same as the best wood. The more you invest the better the product. What I will do to have a box now is not what I will do to have the box I really want. A piece of wood trim inside the house is another step up.
> Cheaper now or cheaper later is a whole different debate.


I agree completely, but HD and Lowes charge through the nose for their junky (premium) boards, and the best wood doesn't need to be the most expensive wood either if I can source it from a local mill for less. I wish I had the space to stack and dry boards inside.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

To the OP, Craigslist has been good to me for 1X12 pine at about 30 cents/foot. I live 30 miles from Minneapolist/Saint Paul MN. and when someone is rahabbing an old house or pulling shelving from a basement or garage the pine appears in the listings. Making boxes is my winter project.
http://s1110.beta.photobucket.com/user/AdrianQuineyWI/media/2012-11-25201323.jpg.html?sort=6&o=0
http://s1110.beta.photobucket.com/user/AdrianQuineyWI/media/2012-11-16074633.jpg.html?sort=6&o=1


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> I guess I just never noticed it, but, some of the cypress boards have been painted blue.
> cchoganjr[


I don't know that there's a "standard" out there, but I've seen at least a given supplier use one color paint for a given type of wood. (I went back several times for the same type of wood (curly maple) and they were all painted white, while I think walnut was blue and poplar was red) So in a stack you can see what you have.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> One full year with the rough cut, strip stacked inside, will get the moisture content down to 11% to 15 %. Good enough for bee boxes.


You must use a moisture meter. That is a good idea. I have thought about getting one, but have not yet. I store my lumber in overhead racks in my shop. My shop is heated by a wood stove, so the humidity level is very low. I just judge how dry the lumber is by "feel". I have 3 racks and the top boards alway dry fastest, so I just check each rack taking the lightest boards. The lightest obviously are the driest. Not very scientific, I know, but seems to work for me.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Adrian. Nice Nucs. I notice you are using cleats on them. Beesource has my plans in their free library for making the D shape hand hold like the commercial boxes and a link to the video to show you how, if you want to put that type handle on them.

People might also check the Habitat for Humanity Restore for 1 X 12. I have found it there. Both shelving grade and roofing grade. They sell it cheap.

ralittefield... Yes those moisture meters are not expensive. I stack my wood in a big barn, and also stack some on the tier poles up in the barn.

cchoganjr


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I am not sure you must use a moisture meter. after a while you can pickup a board and have a good idea if it is dry enough or not. It becomes a matter of to wet or dry enough rather than a moisture reading.

Warping not nearly as much of an issue in short boards. Cupping is more likely in wider boards but that one is easy to look at the end grain and see if it is likely to cup a lot or a little. All wood warps expands and contracts. The issue is how much

A rule of thumb in drying time for green wood is one year per inch of thickness. a 3/4 inch by 12 inch wide board would then need to be stacked to dry for 9 months. It takes about 2 here because it is so dry. faster drying cracks more wood. You can do the same thing in a kiln in a few days. A microwave can dry wood in minutes. I've done it and it is very interesting to do. you can actually see the wood warping, shrinking etc as it dries. Quick lesson in what to expect for any sort of grain as it dries.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

A key to reducing warping / checking as the wood dries is both painting the ends, and stickering. Cutting 3/4" square (dry, not green wood) pieces to space about every foot - foot and a half and keep them in line going up the stack. I think the article above talks about stickers. I put a piece of plywood on top (with stickers under it / on top of the top board) with a few cinder blocks for weight for the top boards. I hope this makes sense.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

delber... I use spacers in my stacks, but I only use 4 spacers per 10 and 12 foot boards, (as you can see in the photo above) and they cure perfectly.

cchoganjr


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

There are tables here for the area and the approximate dry time for when the wood was put up. The first link I think is better. Your tax dollars at work. I think it takes far less time than we have been guessing at. 
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr121.pdf
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2001/simps01c.pdf
I had to wait until I got to work to look up the link. This pretty much says what said above. The cut time is dependent on when you cut and sticker it. It has also been said that if you are using KD lumber and putting it outside in the marine environments it is going to swell pretty much back to the air dry numbers anyway. I got a moisture meter at Harbor freight and think the weigh it would be just as accurate.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I have a cypress mill near me, but I don't know the "lingo" that I should use. So how does the board foot measurement work?

If it's .80 cents a board foot, how much does it work out to per medium 8 frame super? What should I ask for when I call them up? Is there an online place that will ship bulk for a reasonable price? i.e. how much would I need to buy to make it worth while for a semi to drop it off at my door. 1000 board feet? 

Thanks


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

If a board is 1" thick by12" x12" that is 1 board foot if it was 2 " thick it would be 2 board feet
they use a hook yard stick that is mark that tell you how many board feet that is in a piece 
david


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

KevinR said:


> i.e. how much would I need to buy to make it worth while for a semi to drop it off at my door. 1000 board feet?


Well, 1000 board feet is a bundle approx 8ft x 4ft x 32 inches high. (actual bundle dimensions will vary, but those numbers calculate to 1000 bd ft) Unless you are planning on unloading board by board, or have a forklift available, you may need to modify your plan. :lookout:

Call the mill and talk to them. Its quite possible that that may have a smaller truck that can self unload. Or they may suggest a better way.

You need to consider whether the wood is sold "dried" or whether you need to air-dry it before use. 

Personally, I'd call them, and set up a visit. Go see what they have, look at a sample, and see if it will meet your expectations.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Yes, so 1x8 is 2/3 of a bdf per linear foot. Your cost per box will vary slightly by the layout you do, which is dependent on board length.
When you visit them, take some home and get to know it well before buying a 1,000 bdf.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

KevinR.... I use cypress as stated above, and my experience has been, that normally it takes a 10 ft board to average getting a ten frame deep brood chamber.(sometimes you may get a box and a side or front, but on average just one box) I have mine sawed, 11 inch wide, 7/8 thick, any length. Then they compute the board feet. If you are making a 10 frame deep, and the cypress is .80 bdft, then the deep will cost (on average) about $6.00 not counting thansportation cost.For supers, you could have it sawed, 6 1/2inches wide. You should try to get it as knot free as he will sell it for .80 bdft.

I notice you are from Tipton Tn, don't know how close that is to Cadiz Ky., but my last load from there had a lot that is nonusable for boxes. Can be used for rails of bottom boards, and rails around tops. I would not buy from them again. Too many boards have a knott on the side, or splits that extend 2-4 feet on the length of the board. 

cchoganjr


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Well, 1000 board feet is a bundle approx 8ft x 4ft x 32 inches high.


If all you have is a single bundle of say 1000 b.f. you can have it dropped. the lumber is bundled in one stack and the truck has a tilting bed. they drop it like a dump truck drops dirt. Cheap and does not do as much damage as you might think.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Cleo,
I think I would like your work. At just over or just under 6 feet per box depending on joint style your either working with very rough stock or turning out a very nice piece. I'm guessing the latter, but there is an art form to either method.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

A bit on the issue of expected losses. I will not argue with Cleo on his experience at all. There is a lot of sorting that goes on before lumber goes from a mill to home depot.

As an example. I found a source for slabs of walnut burl.Now walnut burl of the correct quality sells for a lot of money. a few hundred dollars per board foot in some cases. I got 500 lbs of it for $250. After drying. cutting into usable pieces and throwing out what was not even close to good enough. I had 25 lbs of high quality maple burl. about 250 lbs of lesser grade burl and the rest was pure waste. But that 25 lbs was worth about $2000. Lots of work. two band saw blades and a whole lot of headache later. I decided it was not worth it. I have never done it again. I have paid as much as $100 for 6 cubic inches of wood. That works out to $2400 per bdf. and have no question it was worth every penny. IT was not Walnut. it was Huanguali.
http://www.chinese-furniture.com/cgi-bin/ccf.cgi?stt=stp&pgn=c_furniture/m_huanghuali.html&id=105

The piece i bought does have the ghost faces which is very expensive. but not only that but the figure was on a scale that would work for a writing pen. I produced a pen from it that I will not sell. but I do offer it for $2000 if I can locate the materials. It is limited edition gold nib fountain pen that has never been written with. 

The style of pen is the Emperor and in this tradition. I named the pen Shǐ Huángdì which means First Emperor. 

Just a bit of a story that shows how extreme the search for wood and what is considered waste can get.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Just as important is how they are measuring it.  I was buying red oak up the road and lined up a pick up bed full. They laid it out side to side and measured across the face of the boards, multiplied it by the length. The boards were not dimensional (edges not straight) so with all the openings in the stack as measured I must have paid for ‘air boards’. 
When I buy I have always had ‘one straight edge’ so I do not pick the width. You can pick minimum width but the more you spec the more the price goes up.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> If all you have is a single bundle of say 1000 b.f. you can have it dropped. the lumber is bundled in one stack and the* truck has a tilting bed*.


Not likely. My comment was in response to the scenario posed by _KevinR_.



KevinR said:


> Is there an online place that will ship bulk for a reasonable price? i.e. how much would I need to buy to make it worth while for a *semi *to drop it off at my door. 1000 board feet?


Typically, a *semi trucks *hauling lumber are simple flatbeds. No tilt mechanism, no rollers like you might see on a local delivery truck. *Semi *trucks generally require a forklift to load/unload.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Saltybee...Maybe I wasn't clear. I normally get one box, and some other pieces from a 10 foot board. The cost per box is what is normally $6.00. And yes, the cypress I get is .80 per board ft, and it is rough saw, and often it is very rough. I select the better pieces for boxes, the lesser for bottom boards, tops, etc, The last source I tried turned out to be a bust. Too much of it is almost worthless. It was banded, and I did not break the bands before I loaded it and brought it home. , But, it is his loss. I won't order any more.

Someone above said go and look at it, and I second that.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

minz you are correct. There is a whole different ballgame about measuring wood. From one source I ordered, 11 inch wide, 7/8 thick, 10 feet long, well, they calculated those boards as 10 board feet each. When it actually contained just a little over 7.5 bdft. Some mills calculate their rough stock the same way finished lumber is calculated. A stack of 2 X 4, 10 feet long, 10 ft. wide does not contain 200 board ft. 

Someone above said the price goes up as you put restrictions on what you are buying. That is very true. Cypress for .80 a board ft is no where near as good as $2.00 per board ft. But you can still come out on cypress boxes at $6.00 each. 

cchoganjr


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

We have 2 local multy store local lumber yards, a Lowes and a Depot all within a 5 mile radius. You would not expect to find the same board called the same grade at any of the four. Each is a little different grade to grade or month to month. You have to look or get a very good price unseen.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Saltybee...agreed. I have been stuck by buying unseen.

cchoganjr


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## Mustang (Jan 10, 2011)

Cleo
do you sell any cypress tops ? I have the metal for them.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Mustang..Contact me at [email protected] Let me see what you need.

cchoganjr


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