# Is no treatment possible?



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I am curious if there are any beeks out there who have done absolutely no treatments (including sugar dusting) of any kind for varroa mites for at least 3 years. If so, how is the condition of the hives, if they are still alive? Are they on small cell wax foundation or plastic, or natural cell? Are there any special management practices you are using to keep them alive? I'm just doing some research on my own into varroa mites. Thanks in advance for your answers.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

There is a beekeeper like that, right here (meaning myself). There are others too. You should do a search on this subject, you will find several discussions of this subject.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Joseph Clemens said:


> There is a beekeeper like that, right here (meaning myself). There are others too. You should do a search on this subject, you will find several discussions of this subject.


 That's great, but can you go into a little more detail on your own bees, including answering a couple of the questions that I asked in my initial post. Thanks


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

One of the major problems with theVarroa mites is that a hive will dwindle down to a point that the bees abscond and guess wher they go?
It's just not good economics to go without some form of approved treatment and IPM.
Ernie


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Are you speaking specifically about large cell colonies with Varroa infestations? Because if you listen to natural cell folks, they say that their hives don't even get close to the point where the bees abscond. The way I understand it, and I may very well be misunderstanding it, is that Varroa does not get the upper hand in hives with small or natural cell, the hive functions productively along side a stable mite population.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I've been keeping bees this same way, but with even fewer (actually none) of the treatments I mention next, since about 1968. The only treatments I have used for several years now, are: 1) B401 sprayed on most empty and/or idle comb. 2) Sometimes, but not always, I put a little copper gluconate in the sugar syrup I feed to nucs right after I've just made them up. 3) I use some small-cell foundation, some foundationless frames, some regular sized foundation, some PF120 (small-cell plastic foundation/frames), and a few HSC (Honey Super Cell) plastic small-cell combs.

My management, especially for honey production is shown here in a SketchUp drawing that illustrates how my colonies are configured for honey production - Hive Configuration.

This configuration incorporates some adaptations I've developed in order to better take advantage of my location and to avoid many of the hazards that are here too. My configuration may benefit others, especially in similar environments, but may not even be an advantage to others.


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## longrangedog (Jun 24, 2007)

BEE CULTURE magazine June 2009 issue: "The most effective method to combat Varroa mites is to use honey bees that are resistant to Varroa mites. They exist. You can buy them. You can make them. They are Russians. They are the survivors. They are hygienic. They are better than the rest. If these bees aren't in your colonies, on your list to buy, on the way to your colonies today...then you are on the list of those who are on the way out. That we continue to pour poison into our boxes when we could be pulling pure and perfect honey out of them instead is amazing. It boggles the mind that this industry hasn't adopted these bees yet." Kim Flottum, editor

Several (if not all) Russian Honeybee Breeders Association members are treatment free. Carl Webb, Georgia, and Hubert Tubbs, Mississippi, are two that I'm aware of. They are both primarily honey producers with the queen business and nuc sales secondary parts of their operation. I've been treatment free for two years with good results. 

Read the quote carefully. There should be no doubt as to the strength of Mr. Flottum's conviction as to where the industry should be headed.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

I haven't treated with anything at all in 5 years. 15-20 hives. Average 1-3 supers of honey per hive and would get more if I was better at controlling swarming. Mine are nothing special Italians that I've had for many years with the addition of some feral genetics that I have gotten. They are on mostly standard large foundation. I use SBB. The only time I dust is to check the mite level in a poor performing hive. 

My technique for getting there was simply that I got tired of spending the time & money to treat like some people (especially Monsanto, Bayer and the bee supply companies) say you should. I accepted some initial losses, but it was probably more luck than my management skills.

Lots of others on here do the same thing with their local bees.

The quote from Kim Flottum seemed to be addressed to the large commercial guys. VSH and to some extent Minn Hygenics & NWC are also tolerant of varroa.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

heaflaw said:


> The quote from Kim Flottum seemed to be addressed to the large commercial guys.


Most commercials I know do not want Russians because they winter in too small a cluster to pass grade. The Russian breeders are reportedly working to alleviate this problemr. Unless or until they do, Commercial operators needing almond bees won't be changing to Russians anytime soon.
Sheri


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> Most commercials I know do not want Russians because they winter in too small a cluster to pass grade. Sheri


t:Sheri this presents a subject which I don't believe has really been discussed. Many may not realize that it takes an adequate size of bee population, not only to maintain cluster temperatures, but also, once it begins to warm there has to be enough bees come through winter to begin a rapid spring buildup. Many (including myself) would value your experience and also Michael Bush and Palmer and some others on this subject. How about starting a thread.

Kindest Regards
Danny


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I am curious if there are any beeks out there who have done absolutely no treatments (including sugar dusting) of any kind for varroa mites for at least 3 years.

No treatment of any kind from 1975 to 1999. No treatment of any kind from 2003 to 2010.

> If so, how is the condition of the hives, if they are still alive?

http://www.bushfarms.com/beescerts.htm

> Are they on small cell wax foundation or plastic, or natural cell?

Yes. But all either 4.95mm or smaller. Wax foundation. Foundationless, natural cell, PermaComb and Honey Super Cell.

> Are there any special management practices you are using to keep them alive?

I try to leave them honey for the winter.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I really appreciate all the responses to my questions I've been getting, I realized this subject has come up time and time again, and I could have done a search to try to get answers, but I wanted to get some specific details that were up to date from beeks here on this site. I have only been here about a year, but I have gained a wealth of information from people more experienced than I. The more I study the varroa mite, the more I think that the solution to this problem will come from the ranks of the average beekeeper and not in a laboratory. There was a time when varroa was not here with us, do you think that the time will again come when it is not here?


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## pcelar (Oct 5, 2007)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> Most commercials I know do not want Russians because they winter in too small a cluster to pass grade.
> Sheri


Sorry but I disagree with this.
My Russians overwinter with huge cluster (3 deeps).
Early in the spring the hive is busting!
I do not use any ABs or chemicals. Just TLC.


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## B Reeves (Oct 2, 2009)

Been Treatment free for 6 years started process after finding Weaver queens were treatment free for a long time, plastic foundation wood frames normal size, I buy from other breeders also to keep a good mix and trap feral hives, I had in the past pinched off queens that had problems, a strong hive is the test, as best as I can tell I have not lost a hive to Varroa, CCD or SHB, I see the beetles in the hive all the time, I my opinion Bees have seen these pests in there past Genetic history, they will figure it out.
Bob


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

pcelar said:


> Sorry but I disagree with this.
> My Russians overwinter with huge cluster (3 deeps).
> Early in the spring the hive is busting!
> I do not use any ABs or chemicals. Just TLC.


 Do Russians have more of a tendency to swarm though? I realize swarming is not all genetics, but a lack of properly timed management too.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

BEES4U said:


> It's just not good economics to go without some form of approved treatment and IPM.
> Ernie


Ernie -

I respect the fact that for your business, you find that you need to treat your bees. However, in this forum, we are interested in management without treatments. Perhaps the economics don't work in a business like yours, but it does work for many others.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Barry said:


> Ernie -
> 
> However, in this forum, we are interested in management without treatments.


Barry,
I respect your opinion too.
Ernie


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Currently I have all of the top quality genetics available in my operation to try and go the no treatment path which is much more than I can say for the people with a few hives.
I have run the expenses of the no treatment route and I have many hives currently in field testing.
Ernie


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

I resumed beekeeping in the spring of 2006 by purchasing packages from the Weavers. I spent 2005 researching, because beekeeping had changed drastically from the time I last kept 16 hives. So from the time my two packages arrived in April 2006, to now, I have not treated. I now have 14 colonies, going up to 30-34 this year. 

Now, and this is going to be sacrilege to some, but not only have I not given any chemical treatments, I haven't dusted, used essential oils, nothing. nada. zilch. And here's where the sacrilege comes in... I haven't even taken the time to do mite counts. :lookout: My rationale is, if they survive, they survive, if they don't, I didn't want them anyway. 

I run the sbb with a slatted rack. I do use the cd jewel case trap for the shb. I feed when necessary, but try to leave plenty of honey on each fall. I run two deep brood boxes with a medium or shallow super for honey stores. So far, knock on wood, all 14 of my hives are still alive this year. But to be realistic, I won't know their health or strength or survival numbers for another month or so. Got to get them thru the next 6 weeks.
Hope this helps.
Steven


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

StevenG, thanks for the interesting details on your bees, I have a couple questions. I assume all your hives have some mites, you just don't take a count. Have you had anything that resembled a disease problem, or have you seen any bees with deformed wings? Are you on small or natural cell?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

StevenG said:


> I do use the cd jewel case trap for the shb.


What do you use in those cd jewel case traps?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I feel the same way as StevenG. I've never done any mite counts, not tested for any diseases, tracheal mites, etc. I realize it may help some people (or beekeepers) to know where what pest/pathogens are located, but like StevenG said, "... if they survive, they survive, if they don't, I didn't want them anyway."

I've seen a few possible cases of PMS, simple requeening from a standby queen in a nuc takes care of them.

If a colony gets too defensive, a quick requeening from a standby queen in a nuc, almost always takes care of this issue too.

Raising my own queens and keeping them available in nucs has been one of the best management techniques I ever added to my beekeeping arsenal.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Raising my own queens is something that is in my plans for this year also, something I've never done before. Is there a site that I can go to get a strategy on how to raise a few queens to have on standby for myself. I could have used a couple queens last year, but didn't have them on hand.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

re: mite count. Yes, I assume my bees have mites. Since installing the two packages in 2006 and growing to 14 colonies last fall, I have lost one hive. Many of the dead bees had deformed wings. Whenever I see dead bees outside the hive, I take a look at them. I occasionally see a bee with deformed wings, but not often. When I do inspections over the winter (just looking at the dead bees at the entrances) I look for deformed wings, and haven't seen any yet, knock on wood!

foundation: I have been using standard foundation. Not small cell. However, I am transitioning this year to foundationless. 

shb trap: Based on recommendations from others, I installed the cd cases late last summer. The oil traps just seemed too messy to me, and the bees propolised some of them up pretty bad. The way the cd case works is that you break out the four tabs on each case, to give the beetles an entrance. Then mix your poison... 1 part shortening (I use Crisco) 1 part powdered sugar, and 1/2 part boric acid. I have heard of some just using the boric acid. I might try that this year, just to see how it works. I've not had a lot of beetles in my hives. Most was about a dozen, but I'm really, and I mean really paranoid about them. I want to stay on top of that threat. 
Hope this helps.
Steven


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

I posted this in another thread

I haven't had any losses for the past six years-no medications or any other type of parasite control other than screened bottom boards on two hives. Two hives have plastic screened bottom boards (the green ones), 2 with plastic bottoms (white solid ones), 1 regular wooden. Have allowed natural queen succession the whole time and not fed any sugar or syrup. Started out with 1-Russian hybrid, 1-Mininnosota hygenic, 1 Buckfast and 2 Italians (I like variety . The Russian was queened to a swarm that settled in the wall of our garage, that was an easy freebie .

Just started switching to small comb last year. I'm also going to put screened bottom boards on a couple more hives this year. Adding three packages of Russian-hybrids this year for my daughter and split three colonies. The new hives will have screened bottom boards. I want some honey, so I'm not going to split the other two unless they start to look crowded.

I'm also lazy and usually stick at least three supers on each hive at the beginning of spring and add one to two more on top if they look busy. I usually get two to three supers filled and some comb drawn in the other two. I don't do hive body reversals or any type of arranging of supers during honey flow. I usually get a good percentage of the Ross rounds filled (maybe a couple of light ones on the end) and the extracting supers are always filled.

I let them go into fall with two hive bodies and if one appears light, I'll leave a super of honey. It works for me, but I don't have a lot of time to go into the hives. I'm in them, maybe a max of six times a year.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

kbfarms, very informative look into your bees and management, good to see you are not having any varroa problems for six years now. Seems like screened bottom boards are pretty much commonplace with beeks now. I have them on my two top bar hives, but there is a tray under the screens to collect droppings and for doing mite counts. I'm starting 6-8 new Lang hives this spring, will use screened bottoms on them, but will probably leave it open to the ground under the screens most of the time, except for when I do a mite count I will insert the tray back under the screen. I think ventilation is more important than what we used to think years back. Even our own homes are too air tight nowadays.


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## bobber128 (Jun 6, 2010)

StevenG said:


> Now, and this is going to be sacrilege to some, but not only have I not given any chemical treatments, I haven't dusted, used essential oils, nothing. nada. zilch. And here's where the sacrilege comes in... I haven't even taken the time to do mite counts. :lookout: My rationale is, if they survive, they survive, if they don't, I didn't want them anyway.
> Steven


I am new to the game, but I've been reading a LOT!!! I just wanted to add that Kirk Webster lives by this philosophy, and seems to be one of the gurus. 

This is also my goal. I'd like to completely avoid chemicals, etc.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Any strain of hygienic bees in use today by hobby beekeepers (under southern conditions) should last at least 3 years with no treatments of any kind. The colony may not be as productive as a treated colony but they will usually make their winter stores and a medium super surplus.


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## OrionBee (May 12, 2010)

Kirk Webster and the others who live by the "if they live, they live" is a very strong strategy. Having read the works of Darwin, and knowing how survival of the fittest works, I have been chemical free for three years. Screened bottom boards, indeed, replaced all the old comb last year with plastic unwaxed foundation.

Luck has a lot to do with it. Almost all of my colonies (for the most part) have been captured from swarms. I just split the strong ones, pinched the queen in the week one, move a frame of eggs/brood from the strong one to the one where the queen was bumped off, and let them raise a new queen. And being near a person that breeds their own queens insures that I have plenty of drones. Taking advantage of drones that are not mine insures that I have plenty of resistance.


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## beenovice (Jun 19, 2007)

jmgi said:


> I am curious if there are any beeks out there who have done absolutely no treatments (including sugar dusting) of any kind for varroa mites for at least 3 years. If so, how is the condition of the hives, if they are still alive? Are they on small cell wax foundation or plastic, or natural cell? Are there any special management practices you are using to keep them alive? I'm just doing some research on my own into varroa mites. Thanks in advance for your answers.


Yep, natural comb and I let them swarm. Nothing else.... 3rd season now treatment free and those hives are all I wanted. Treatment free, swarm or two or three, couple of kilos of honey and gentle, very gentle.

I have hives in the same apiary that I treat. A little more honey crop but not so gentle as treatment free hives but still gentle. I let these swarm as well. 

The only practice I can think of now is that I just leave them bee, put no foundation inside, all natural comb and I like catching swarms, I don't fight it...


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

I have been chewing on this for a while. If I occasionally dust my bees w/ sugar(I say dust, but what i mean is scoop n dump. No Screens or dusters) then am I treatment free? I also do para moth in the supers, but lets not gett:. 
I am running open mated VSH, buckfast mutts, and just plain feral mutts. I have not dusted in 2010 and I have not lost any. Does that mean that my bees are varroa tolerant, or is it not the time of year to lose them to mites? IMHO, there is more of a chance of losing to pesticides than mites where I live, but I could be wrong.

This week is hygenic test. In a few weeks comes the VSH test. I will keep the ones that are VSH separtate and dust the others so that they do not flop. 

I have been having issues w/ my VSH. The egg pattern is solid. But the capped brood is spotty. Is that the VSH in them, or a dud queen?


Correct me if I am wrong.:lookout:


Kingfisher opcorn:


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> This week is hygenic test. In a few weeks comes the VSH test. I will keep the ones that are VSH separtate and dust the others so that they do not flop.
> 
> I have been having issues w/ my VSH. The egg pattern is solid. But the capped brood is spotty. Is that the VSH in them, or a dud queen? QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## BigT (Mar 6, 2006)

I have done absolutly no type of treatments for several years now. I am a firm believer in it and I have lost only one hive in the last few years. I swear by it. It may not be for everybody but it is right for me and my girls.
Big T


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## jlk (Jul 5, 2001)

No treatments of any kind for six years now ,I have Russian -Italian mutts pretty much leave them alone except for splits, and adding supers. I do brood box reversing in the spring to try and minimize swarming in the spring.I use screened bottom boards also .


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## beerated (May 13, 2010)

Yes, 
Survival of the fitest.Let bees be bees.......


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

If you do not get bees from sources/breeders who do not treat, there will be no survival. Some feral stocks are survivor stock. But to buy from someone who treats regularly is to invite disaster in your apiary if you attempt to go treatment free. The bees will not have any resistance.
Regards,
Steven


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## Aram (May 9, 2006)

Is splitting (interrupting the brood cycle) a form of varoa treatment? That's the only one I use.


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## Beeboy01 (May 20, 2008)

Going on three years with no mite treatments on my four hives. I'm using a mix of plastic and wax foundation with all naturally drawn comb. I will pull patches of drone brood out of the frames if I spot any large clumps of them. I have seen mites on some of the drone brood and ocassionally see workers with crumpled wings in late August. I havent requeened any of my hives using commercial queens for five years and unless the hives start getting agressive I have no plans to requeen using store bought queens. I'm using screened bottom boards and beetle blasters for SHB's which are a big problem here in Florida.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

>Several (if not all) Russian Honeybee Breeders Association members are treatment free. Carl Webb, Georgia, and Hubert Tubbs, Mississippi, are two that I'm aware of. They are both primarily honey producers with the queen business and nuc sales secondary parts of their operation. I've been treatment free for two years with good results 

I've been TOTALLY TREATMENT FREE for two years also, and I don't have Russian's, I have plain ole nothin fancy Italians, as a matter of fact, they are southern raised Italian's, not even northern adapted survivor Italian's. So, it looks like one doesn't have the advantage over the other just yet when it comes to varroa, so let's not get carried away with cheerleading for Russian bees as the answer. John


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

>If you do not get bees from sources/breeders who do not treat, there will be no survival.

StevenG, that's cold........my bees don't pay attention to pessimistic statements like this, they just keep on going. The package bees I started with a couple years ago were not treatment free by any means, they are now though, and are still here and prospering. John


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

jmgi said:


> >If you do not get bees from sources/breeders who do not treat, there will be no survival.
> 
> StevenG, that's cold........my bees don't pay attention to pessimistic statements like this, they just keep on going. The package bees I started with a couple years ago were not treatment free by any means, they are now though, and are still here and prospering. John


Hi John!
I'm glad you're having good luck with your bees, and those packages you started with. 

You're right, I was cold, blunt, abrupt. Probably shouldn't have been, but history has shown that new beeks who buy from breeders who treat, and treat heavily, can't understand why their bees die out without treatment. Genetics have a lot to do with it, as well as hygenic behavior. Personally I am not willing to take a chance of being treatment free with package bees that have been treated. Or queens that have not been bred for hygenic resistance. 

Of course there are exceptions to everything, but my wallet isn't deep enough to test for the exceptions.  For those starting out, or wanting to convert to treatment free, the safest, and I think best, way to do this is to buy treatment free packages, or requeen with proven resistant/treatment free queens.

Due to your track record, I'll bet your beek friends and neighbors would love to buy nucs and queens from you! There is always a need for more providers of such, have you thought about it? Were I not expanding on my own now with my own bees, and were I closer to you, I'd certainly be interested!
Best wishes,
Steven


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

StevenG,

I know from your posts going back awhile that you are a firm believer in buying hygenic, treatment free, resistent bees and queens. That's been a successful way to go for you and many others, and I applaud you for going treatment free. When I got back into beekeeping after many years (didn't have bees since before varroa) I was commited to going as natural as I could. So what I do is let the bees build all their own comb naturally, no foundation. No sugar syrup unless absolutely no other way to supplement feed, my preference is to feed honey back only from my own hives if I have it on hand. NO chemicals, antibiotics, essential oils, powdered sugar dusting, zilch! Still use solid bottoms on all my hives except two top bar hives I built, and the main reason I use screened bottoms on those is more for better ventilation and not for mite drop. So here I am a couple years into this experiment, and I won't lie, some of my hives have had mites for a couple years, but they don't seem to be causing any problem that the bees can't handle, at least yet. John


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

jmgi said:


> NO chemicals, antibiotics, essential oils, powdered sugar dusting, zilch! Still use solid bottoms on all my hives except two top bar hives I built, and the main reason I use screened bottoms on those is more for better ventilation and not for mite drop. So here I am a couple years into this experiment, and I won't lie, some of my hives have had mites for a couple years, but they don't seem to be causing any problem that the bees can't handle, at least yet. John


Good to hear that there are people that think like me. No EOs, no nothing! I us all Solid BB, I filled in my only screened bottom board. If I did all the "non treatments" i.e. HBH, eos, etc i would go into debt.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

This is a very interesting and important thread. I would very much like to be treatment free - and that will no doubt happen when my confidence increases that the bees will survive without chemical aid.

To get there I have recently installed in one yard 8 Russian queens and in two other yards have mostly hives headed by Northern queens raised by someone with a very good reputation.

I think what we have for stock makes a huge difference. The hives I've had with what I'll call back of the magazine queens haven't been outstanding either in terms of brood production or long term hive survivability. And it gets expensive buying replacement bees.

So this year I've made up some nucs to over winter using both purchased mated queens and brood w/ attached swarm cells. I hope to be better next year at finding swarm cells before the swarms happen to use in making up nucs.

What techniques are used to keep bees from developing problems with dysentery and/or nosema during the winter? I'm on the coast of Maine (in my home yard the hives are less than 1,000 yards from the water) and so winter prep is very important. I wrap with roofing paper, use a homasote board on top of the inner cover, and have an open auger hole in the top box for ventilation. I've given up on sbb (every hive I've put them on has died) as I think I am in too moist an environment. It would be nice not to feel a need to feed Fumagilin-B prophylacticly.

I don't use tetracycline or tylan - if a hive should develop AFB I'll burn it and be done with it. AFB has not been a problem in my area.

Just stopping the use of all treatments feels irresponsible. I'm trying to follow an IPM strategy rather than treating based solely on the time of year. For example, I'll be doing several alcohol washes before contemplating treating for varoa. 

Like I said this is an interesting and important thread. I'm studying it in an effort to be a better beekeeper and not a beehaver.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Hi John and Kingfisher!

The beauty of this forum is what we learn from each other. When I started building my equipment 5 years ago in my return to beekeeping, I made screened bottom boards. You two don't really use them... why? What has been your experience of screened vs. solid bottom boards?

Thanks for sharing!
Steven


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

The fact that I have not had a colony survive vary long on a screened bb (out of 3 hives that sat on it over a period of 2 years). Also, I do not want to mod all my SBB. So cost and bad experiences.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

StevenG,

As I said in an earlier post, my only two hives with screened bottoms are top bar hives. Those hives are about 40" long I think, and the screen runs the whole length also. I overwintered them just as they are (screen open) except for a piece of 1" foam board that I layed on top of the top bars under the roof. They came through the winter in great shape! I don't know if the screen helped them winter better or not, I do know that they had no moisture problems. The reason I am not using screens on my Lang hives is that I wanted to keep bees the way I did in the 1970's, before varroa, and see how they do, its just that simple. If it was proven that screens help colonies against varroa and helped with ventilation in both summer and winter, then I might consider using them, but as far as I know, there is no definitive answer on this yet. Have you seen any reliable studies? Best to you, John


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Thanks Kingfisher...understand expense and bad experience.

John, no, I've not seen any definitive studies, mostly anecdotal evidence. Since being treatment free, I like the idea of mite fall thru the screens... and ventilation. Grant, who posts here frequently, has both closed his screens in winter, and left them open. Hadn't noticed much difference. I closed mine this past winter, and had some condensation problems in a few hives. I also used the Mountaincamp Method. But when preparing the hives for spring, there was an awful lot of granulated sugar on the bottom boards... 

So I'll leave them open this winter, and see what happens. I'll also adjust for ventilation at the top of the hive, and not do Mountaincamp this winter. But in SE Missouri, our winters aren't as bad as those further north. 

Seems like life continues to be a classroom...:doh:
Regards,
Steven


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

I used the Mountaincamp method on two well fed hives to see what would happen. Both hives had SBB and top ventilation and two deeps of brood and honey going into winter. One hive died in Dec and the other came out of winter (Feb) with 500 bees and a queen, it died too, even with the addition of a frame of brood. On the bottom board of both hives was 10 lbs of sugar and 3000 dead bees. I will just feed my bees 2-1 this year and not add anything else to the hive. As some have said "Why not just feed your bees 2-1 early enough for them to ripen it", instead of dumping sugar on them.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Might have had nosema issues... there was a study - posted here by Mike Palmer - done by Tony Jadcszak from Maine that indicated that sugar feeding increased nosema levels in hives. This study was with northern bees, NY and ME, but should translate to southern areas too.


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## bbbbeeman (Jan 13, 2007)

as I have stated many times on beesource I stopped useing chem`in 1994 and went to the closed screen bb with the oil tray for varroa, and when the shb came along the oil pan worked real well,and should shb or wm larva fall in the oil its dead,some beek use the open screen bb but here it is an easy way for the shb to get in the hive,I use a screen on the top in place of the intercover, it is the size or like the house screen.that keep the moisture down in the winter,that may not work in the northern states.I run about 60 hives like that I dont buy bees, I do buy queens when I dont have time to raise them. swarms and cutouts supply me and freinds with our bees,and they go to an out yard untell we know the are good and without diseases. I had bees to die at first in1994 &5 but they adapt or die like it was in the good old days 60`s &70`s before all of our problems were brough to this country . good luck rock.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_but they adapt or die like it was in the good old days 60`s &70`s before all of our problems were brough to this country _

Were there not some extremely large colony losses back in the mid 60's?


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## bbbbeeman (Jan 13, 2007)

THE FIRST LOSSES i REMEMBER WAS IN THE MID 70`S, AND LOSES WERE ABOUT 40%. NO ONE KNEW WHY . GOOD LUCK ROCK.


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

We've been treatment free for 8 years using screened bottom and top boards all year......I do get nervous though around Jan-Feb....especially if it drops below 10 degrees.....only lost one hive last winter due to starvation. I'll keep a closer eye on them this year in late December, early January.


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