# knowing what you know now, where would you start with horizontal hive?



## twd000 (11 mo ago)

I have the advantage of the beginner's mind - no preconceived notions of how bees "should" be kept

It's quite a bit of information overload to read about all the different variations of hive bodies: Layens, Lazutin, horizontal Langstroth with deep frames, etc.

I have some woodworking skills and a modest garage shop; don't mind building something from scratch.

I have no "sunk cost" into existing equipment, although all the beekeepers and clubs around me using Langstroth equipment. 

As much as I would love to imagine catching swarms and never buying bees, there's a good chance I will need to. As well as selling or giving away excess bees to others on Langstroth equipment.

Just finished reading "Keeping Bees with a Smile" and the author makes a convincing argument for the geometry of Layens frame in cold climates - allowing the bees to migrate upwards throughout the long winter. I'm not sure how much the 9" depth of a Deep Langstroth is a compromise to the 16" depth of the Layens frame? Very hard to find any comparisons/studies as all the Ag Extension research only studies conventional vertical Langstroth setups.

I'm just interested in playing with some bees in my backyard, and collecting surplus honey for the family. No widespread massive apiaries, no mobile pollination services, etc. Traditional "peasant beekeeping" if you will. 

Going to have a go at treatment-free and minimizing sugar feeding. I just need living bees, I don't need to optimize production.

I'm in semi-suburban New Hampshire. Zone 5, long winters but some erratic freeze-thaw cycles lately. No commercial agriculture around here - I think it's 80% mixed hardwood tree coverage with some lawns and gardens in between. I couldn't find any local mentors to ask about horizontal hives, so I'm asking here.

If you were starting today to all the knowledge you have, but none of the equipment - what style of horizontal hive would you build?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Welcome to Bee source. Lots of collected experience here. There will be information overload and without your own experience to help you sort it out. It almost seems you have made a decision on horizontal hives. We would need info on your your location and your physical capability and how many hours you would have to devote. Would you be happy with crush and strain honey processing? 

There are many threads on here on various horizontal and vertical systems using either Langstroth frames or frames similar to Layens. Langstroth equipment and extractors is much easier to acquire and there is more common instruction on its common issues.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

twd000 said:


> ......."Keeping Bees with a Smile"
> .......Traditional "peasant beekeeping" if you will.
> 
> Going to have a go at treatment-free and minimizing sugar feeding. *I just need living bees,* I don't need to optimize production.
> ...


You see some of us here have already done everything you are just now thinking to try.

It is very much possible you WILL need to treat and feed IF you want the living bees - NOT the other way around.
For example, in my particular case NOT treating means I only have ~13% probability of my bees living - this is a reliable and measured number arrived at from my own testing.

However, go ahead and try for yourself and see.


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## Emmett (Mar 24, 2021)

When I started last year I too wanted to go horizontal. After research and thought I went vertical lang. Theres a reason most use them. My opinion and many others is that unless you have an issue lifting weight go with vertical lang.

I would get at least two hives if I were you. I got one last march, I split it and got a swarm ending up with three. This winter I lost the original one. The other two doing fine. Had I stuck with one hive, I’d be buying more bees this year starting from scratch. If one dies or has any issue you can learn from it and prevent the issue with the others. If one gets weak from being queenless or whatever you can help it with resources from the other etc…

From my observation and small experience, treating for mites is a must if you want to have a good chance at keeping bees alive.

Good luck!


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## twd000 (11 mo ago)

crofter said:


> Welcome to Bee source. Lots of collected experience here. There will be information overload and without your own experience to help you sort it out. It almost seems you have made a decision on horizontal hives. We would need info on your your location and your physical capability and how many hours you would have to devote. Would you be happy with crush and strain honey processing?
> 
> There are many threads on here on various horizontal and vertical systems using either Langstroth frames or frames similar to Layens. Langstroth equipment and extractors is much easier to acquire and there is more common instruction on its common issues.



location is New Hampshire - I'll add it to my signature.

physical capability is high - I'm a young fit guy but of course there's a lazy side to me that says if I don't NEED to lift heavy boxes....seems like a lot of unnecessary stacking and restacking with the conventional vertical Langstroth

Hours of commitment - well I don't mind some ongoing maintenance but I have a lot of other hobbies plus three kids to spend time with during the warm months. The twice-a-year commitment in the Lazutin book is appealing but a bit more than that is not a burden.

Crush and strain honey processing would be fine, though I understand it is a large energy burden to the bees for building comb?


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## twd000 (11 mo ago)

GregB said:


> You see some of us here have already done everything you are just now thinking to try.
> 
> It is very much possible you WILL need to treat and feed IF you want the living bees - NOT the other way around.
> For example, in my particular case NOT treating means I only have ~13% probability of my bees living - this is a reliable and measured number arrived at from my own testing.
> ...



indeed I'm an idealistic beginner and I'll need to cross that bridge when I reach it but that won't inform my immediate choice of hive body geometry will it?


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## twd000 (11 mo ago)

Emmett said:


> When I started last year I too wanted to go horizontal. After research and thought I went vertical lang. Theres a reason most use them. My opinion and many others is that unless you have an issue lifting weight go with vertical lang.
> 
> I would get at least two hives if I were you. I got one last march, I split it and got a swarm ending up with three. This winter I lost the original one. The other two doing fine. Had I stuck with one hive, I’d be buying more bees this year starting from scratch. If one dies or has any issue you can learn from it and prevent the issue with the others. If one gets weak from being queenless or whatever you can help it with resources from the other etc…
> 
> ...


 yes I'll start with multiple hives - forgot to mention that. I understand that some horizontal hive designs allow me to split with a divider board and overwinter two colonies in a single hive?

what's your main reason for the vertical Langstroth? Better for the bees, better for the beek? Or just easier not to swim upstream when everyone around you has standardized on that system?

Do you insulate your hives? After reading up on how bee colonies cluster to retain heat, it seems insane to leave them in a thin pine box with an R-value of 1 when the weather hits -10 F


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The stacking and unstacking with the vertical Lang equipment is a time tested efficient way of making a honey crop and it is by far the most familiar source of experienced advisors.

Forget about that twice a year visit stuff. That might have been possible before mites and 20 or so vectored viruses came on the scene. Latest information about his operation says that a lot of the rose tinted ideas in his books have been dropped and he has had some major problems. 

I think you have a lot of reading to do before you can gather enough bee related trivia to make informed decisions.

Judiciously adding insulation generally will allow you to winter on a smaller amount of stores. It is expense and bother though.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

twd000 said:


> indeed I'm an idealistic beginner and I'll need to cross that bridge when I reach it but that won't inform *my immediate choice of hive body geometry will it?*


Hive geometry you should approach with the following in mind:

business requirements (ignore if you are a hobbyist)
your own ergonomic requirements (obviously you don't want to be an enemy to self)
climate requirements (verticals or deep horizontals are more forgiving in cold climates)
esthetic, experimental, and other personal requirements (if matters to you)
If you mean the hive body geometry somehow improves the bee livability in your particular situation - sure.
But forget the "treatment-free" part of the livability equation.
No special geometry will allow to effectively control the mites - so far this has been nothing but mythology and unconfirmed theories


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## Emmett (Mar 24, 2021)

twd000 said:


> what's your main reason for the vertical Langstroth? Better for the bees, better for the beek? Or just easier not to swim upstream when everyone around you has standardized on that system?


All three. I haven’t used horizontal hives so all I can say is the reasons that I decided against them. A hive being full is one of the reasons they get the urge to swarm. With a langstroth, you basically always have supers for them to move up into, my grandpa always says when they hit a roof they swarm. With a horizontal hive your forcing the bees to move sideways instead of up. With a horizontal as I understand a lot of the time your not even using the whole thing. Part of it is empty divided out with a board. In my humid climate that would be terrible for the wood sitting there moist and warm without the bees attention.

Obviously horizontal hives work fine, but why not go lang? I get if you are in a wheel chair but if not, why on earth go horizontal over lang. I haven’t found any good reason.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Emmett said:


> Obviously horizontal hives work fine, but why not go lang? I get if you are in a wheel chair but if not, why on earth go horizontal over lang. I haven’t found any good reason.


Because you need not to lift supers and other heavy things?

I am a totally fine walker and don't require a wheel chair.
But I do have a bad shoulder.
When you make to 50-60 range, Emmett, you'll understand. 
I am sure you are a big and strong guy. All power to you. Keep lifting.


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## Emmett (Mar 24, 2021)

GregB said:


> Because you need not to lift supers and other heavy things?
> 
> I am a totally fine walker and don't require a wheel chair.
> But I do have a bad shoulder.
> ...


Yes I’m 15 and enjoying my youth 🙂. My point is to try to get to the bottom of why twd000 would want a horizontal hive. Originally it sounds great, the whole lift the lid and look at the whole colony, but other than that and the not having to lift, there aren’t really any upsides to horizontal that I’ve found, and so many to vertical.


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## Emmett (Mar 24, 2021)

twd000 said:


> Do you insulate your hives? After reading up on how bee colonies cluster to retain heat, it seems insane to leave them in a thin pine box with an R-value of 1 when the weather hits -10 F


I don’t struggle with the cold here, have you researched apimaye (spelling?) hives? I’m pretty sure those things are very insulated.


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## Some Bloke (Oct 16, 2021)

I have 3 TBHs of the Kenyan variety

They are good in watm climates but in the British midlands the bees begin to struggle, so we add a bit of insulation so the walls are over 1" thick, ideally cedar and lots of roof insulation. For some reason the basic TBH design used here has stupidly thin walls.

Conversely they can struggle with heat - comb collapse - so we place them to catch afternoon shade, and add short side bars to create semi frames. Those are the 2 modifications I would say are highly desirable.

In north Britain (a long thin country) they don't really work, you need to switch to a deeper style of horizontal hive with serious insulation. The Layens has good insulation but I've not seen one in real life.

A good fearure of horizontal hives, rarely discussed, became evident a few weeks ago in storms. None of the horizontal hives in the area had problems, but several people reported vertical hives being toppled, even ones strapped down to heavy bases (it was seriously windy).


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## Akademee (Apr 5, 2020)

I have mild winters in my area and almost everyone I know with horizontal hives struggles with them. Their overwintering rates are abysmal. One of the big reasons for this is that they starve very easily since it is very difficult for the cluster to move around effectively in a horizontal configuration. A cluster can move up and down frames very easily. A cluster can move parallel to the frames very easily. But it can be quite difficult for a cluster to coordinate moving perpendicular to frames, which is what bees in horizontal hives need to do. 

Also, say the bees fill up the sides of the H-Hive with winter stores and cluster in the center, which is typical in these arrangements. Which way do they go? Do they move left or right during the winter? Either direction they commit to moving, they are basically abandoning half of their stores until it starts warming up enough for them to move, which can be far too late in most cases.

These are just some local observations and common complaints of other, more experienced beekeepers in my area. 

Please treat your bees and visit them more that twice a year, good lord. Treatment free is a massive struggle and while it can be done, it requires a VERY experienced beekeeper and a titanic amount of labor.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

I would not do long hives again based on my experience.

My hives were 21 frames long ( 2x 10 FR Lang + 1FR were removed walls were). I could put 2x 10FR supper on the top for honey collection. It was more Dartington Hive idea using Lang frames. If in winter the hive died I had nothing and had to buy new bees in spring.

I added two dividers inside the long hive and got 3x 6 frames to hold 3 colonies. If one died in winter I still had two left and did not have to buy bees. I learned how to do OTS and how to graft.

I replaced long hives with 6 frame boxes. I still can use old 10FR suppers on top of 3x 6FR over 6FR. I have now 4 groups of 3x 6FR over 6FR and I like this arrangement very much. 6FR brood box is made from a single 1x12 6ft long cheapest pine board. It used to be ~$9.

Each group of three colonies is now under a single R-6 dome as a winter insulation. I am using 2x R-10 XPS foam instead of a top cover all year around. In winter this gives me R-26 insulation of hive roofs.

I use a plastic foil and a sheet of Reflectix instead of the inner cover. There is only lower ventilation and the bees take care of air movement inside the hive.
So far all hives are going through the winter in a very good shape near Chicago.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

jtgoral said:


> I would not do long hives again based on my experience.
> 
> My hives were 21 frames long ( 2x 10 FR Lang + 1FR were removed walls were). I could put 2x 10FR supper on the top for honey collection. It was more Dartington Hive idea using Lang frames. If in winter the hive died I had nothing and had to buy new bees in spring.
> 
> ...


This might be an excellent way to go for a beginner. The expression "Dont have your eggs all in one basket" comes to mind. There is a Youtube site and presentations about this method. A search on Adrian Quiney will get you there. 6 frame boxes are easy to handle. Stacked, narrow boxes winter much better than the same number of frames all on one level. Adrian Quiney is having good results over a number of years with quite a few colonies.

I would not be shy to mentor someone who wanted to use that approach. I certainly would feel much more confidant than I would trying to coach them on long horizontals!









How I winterize my nucs.


http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h456/AdrianQuineyWI/Winter%20Wrapping%20nucs%20for%20Wisconsin%202014/3DFAC189-4814-49D2-9383-9853D46BA1F3_zpscpoebp8j.jpg




www.beesource.com


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

2 things
1, build it with the insulation between walls.
2, you won't be able to do the 2 times a year look through that like some do. You will want to be in there learning how the bees do their thing.

I would do One hive of each and make the long one able to accept the Lang frame or easy way to accept it.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Emmett said:


> My point is to try to get to the bottom of why twd000 would want a horizontal hive.....
> .......there aren’t really any upsides to horizontal that I’ve found, and so many to vertical.


May or may not matter why horizontal.
Maybe they want to test for themselves if they can be "treatment-free" - sure, go for it and find out.

What really matters is this:

you will NOT become rich handling the bees (NO matter how productive and efficient your vertical hives are  )
but you can hurt yourself badly while handling the bees (which most likely will cost you financially also)
and so the first rule of a wise beekeeper should be - do no harm to yourself.
Don't be like that old beekeeper who made lots of money by beekeeping and then spent it all fixing his broken back and knees.

Once this is put away and you decide to care or NOT to care - then you can do whatever the heck you want.
Triangular hives are now the real thing anyway.

PS: to be sure, I am a fan of vertical hives myself for several obvious advantages - but in ergonomic implementation (not typical commercial) - this is to avoid un-necessary self-damage.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> I would not do long hives again based on my experience.
> ................ It was more Dartington Hive idea using Lang frames. If in winter the hive died I had nothing and had to buy new bees in spring.........


I have been ranting about forever how the Lang frames are NOT the best choice for long hives in our climate. 
You should know better @jtgoral, knowing very well about the true long Polish hives.

A sub-optimal frame choice does not make a long hive idea bad in general.
IMO the very minimum frame spec for a long hive in cold climate is deep Dadant frame - then we can start talking.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

I would recommend learning in more conventional equipment first. Once experienced, it is a great idea to try some other configurations.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

bushpilot said:


> I would recommend learning in more conventional equipment first. Once experienced, it is a great idea to try some other configurations.


Now see I think this is wrong. Sure Learn about bees and behavior. But there is enough info on long hives to learn from that there is no reason not to just start with it.
Why waste $$$ on hardware you have to completely replace ?
You will learn about how the bees work in the long hive just as easy as in a tall hive.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

bushpilot said:


> I would recommend learning in more conventional equipment first. Once experienced, it is a great idea to try some other configurations.


I actually disagree.
Vertical management and horizontal management are significantly different.
If want to go horizontal - take a plunge and learn it straight forward just as is.
Want to go vertical - then go for it.
Either way - there is plenty of information and experience to learn from.

Takes some experience before one can easily flip back and forth - horizontal to/from vertical.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

OK, I think we have to distinguish between horizontal, and horizontal, not all are equal. The Top Bar Hive is different from the Long Lang and the Ukrainian is different from both. Not all are manipulated the same way, not all can be lumped in the same 'horizontal' basket.

I know nothing about the Top Bar or Long Lang but I was in a similar situation 2 years ago, new, wanting to try something different and averse to the tall Lang hive configuration as I needed to be able to manipulate my colonies by myself.

I built two Layens/Ukrainian hives 26 frames long, IMO that was too long and not deep enough to accept Lang frames rotated 90 degrees. Even though the bees filled it up quite well. Last spring I changed one to 16 frames the other split with a removable divider which had 16/7 in order to have a small queen cell rearing split on one side. This configuration, with slight adjustments, left me with the ability to put 2, 8 frame lang supers right on top, side by side. When I put the first super on I was wondering if I needed to centre it over the brood or over the far end, I did both and frankly the bees were just as willing to build comb on either. So, for me, two supers side by side also gives me a configuration that is not as high a lift, and allows me to only take off the one/ones over the brood side to do summer manipulations. Again, less lifting.

I also have a Lang set up just because my SIL had spare boxes and I needed to hive a swarm quickly last summer. IMO, when I needed to do any manipulations, finding if the hive was queen right, the ease of dealing with the Ukrainian hives was brought to the fore. Breaking down the langs was a back pain to say the least, and trying to take out five frames first to make the super weight less was not any less annoying. For me it is the height that is the problem, and the need to disturb the whole **** lot when breaking it down. 

Today all my hives have bees alive, all the hives when I last looked were up on the MC sugar and all the hives have made it thru the worst part of the winter. That said, they can still die but IMO that would probably be due to beekeeper error not cold.

The deep Ukrainian hives do not need the bees to move left or right any more than the Lang set up would during the winter, the brood is condensed, but when looking at the brood nest and assessing stores, removing mite strips, looking for a failed queen it is a simple matter of opening the top and pulling out a frame.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Tigger19687 said:


> Now see I think this is wrong. Sure Learn about bees and behavior. But there is enough info on long hives to learn from that there is no reason not to just start with it.
> Why waste $$$ on hardware you have to completely replace ?
> You will learn about how the bees work in the long hive just as easy as in a tall hive.


Completely agree.

This idea of "learning from conventional equipment first" is mis-guided at the present time and place.
Those willing and capable of learning have every resource to do it.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

Tigger19687 said:


> Now see I think this is wrong. Sure Learn about bees and behavior. But there is enough info on long hives to learn from that there is no reason not to just start with it.
> Why waste $$$ on hardware you have to completely replace ?
> You will learn about how the bees work in the long hive just as easy as in a tall hive.





GregB said:


> I actually disagree.
> Vertical management and horizontal management are significantly different.
> If want to go horizontal - take a plunge and learn it straight forward just as is.
> Want to go vertical - then go for it.
> ...


Forums are great, aren't they? 

I have never done horizontal hives, and since I have no interest, I believed something that may be underinformed. Thanks for correcting that for the OP, and for me.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

One issue with the new (and not so new) beeks - they often fail to see the real advantages/disadvantages of either system.
Thus they often make the choices for wrong reasons, NOT for the right reasons.

In fact, the true division of the hives is NOT horizontal vs. vertical - it is rather fixed-volume vs. variable volume - this is where the true discussions starts.
But I better stop now.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

GregB said:


> Completely agree.
> 
> This idea of "learning from conventional equipment first" is mis-guided at the present time and place.
> Those willing and capable of learning have every resource to do it.


Thank you. 
When I started to learn about bees 10 years ago I was told to join a new club. Which I did and it was a total waste of my time.
I was told to start the Lang way and the long have was just wrong.
It's old school and we need to be open and HELP those that ask.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Tigger19687 said:


> join a new club. Which I did and it was a total waste of my time.


Pretty much the same here.
But the difference was I did not need to learn anything from them.
Went there once out of curiosity and did not come back to not be wasting my time.
Well, lately I try to reconnect since I have different interests in the club now - it is a sales outlet.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

There is very considerable difference in peoples learning styles. Some people are much more comfortable with a scripted set of instructions and panic at the though of having to make choices. They are more dependable to follow instructions and color between the lines. Others are empowered by the need to make choices and do the abstract thinking. Some like the reinforcement of the group effort of a club atmosphere. Others like the self study and pull from their parallel skills. Not right or wrong.

Some people have had almost no experience handling tools or materials. Some have had extensive experience dealing with different animals and knowing their distinct behaviors.
The advice we give about what is best beekeeping method to pursue should be based on the recipients abilities and inclination and not colored too strongly by our own personal repertoire of skills. Both these things hard at work here in this thread! Pretty much unavoidable.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GregB said:


> I have been ranting about forever how the Lang frames are NOT the best choice for long hives in our climate.
> You should know better @jtgoral, knowing very well about the true long Polish hives.
> 
> A sub-optimal frame choice does not make a long hive idea bad in general.
> IMO the very minimum frame spec for a long hive in cold climate is deep Dadant frame - then we can start talking.


A good example is the fact that in my climate the end sections of the 19" Lang. frames not getting drawn out or used efficiently early season because they are too far from the heated cluster. Just too cold for waxmaking out in the suburbs! A frame with more depth and less width would be better here. Same dimension problems make them less winter worthy.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

I recommend having both, but I prefer vertical.
Why are you thinking of keeping bees, you look at your goal and build towards that.
I like a layens frame size, but you will probably need to build it so it is compatible with lang gear for supering.
And the insulation the good DR recommends is great for overwintering.
If your goal is extraction a Layens is not a good choice, unless you can super with langs.

I see a Horizontal hive as a garden hive, because it is not very flexable in configuration.
A single purpose medium size colony, that if they collect too much honey will max out quickly.
So if larger scale honey production is not a goal a horiz works out OK
So the physical aspects of bee keeping in a horiz would be my only deciding factor.
I think that if I was in a chair I'd figure out a way to keep bees in conventional gear though.
But that is because of gear compatibilitly and versatility (although that is mostly due to the direction of my interests).
One of the challenges i created was giving them too much space, I thought that the insulation would allow a larger cavity.
A layens may bring that issue, a lang frame size will not feel so expansive from the bees perspective (less surface area to heat).
When someone says layens I visualise a basket ball size cluster, i don't think they will do well with small populations.
It is difficult to check the weight of a horizontal because there is so much more structure to the hive and a scale will not be as accurate.

Here is something I have not seen, that I have been thinking about.
Turning the frames 90° so the length of the frames is parallel to the long side of the hive.
This somewhat reduces the distance the bees have to travel to access a single frame from the cluster in a standard horiz configuration.
I think this may also improve airflow in the hive, by having open lanes from front to rear of the hive (I put my entrance in the east end of the hive with the long side facing south) Humidity increases as you move away from the entrance into the honey.
So They won't have to travel so far to access resources, fondant over the colony is still the best preventative for a brood lock.
Also some sort of space under the frames for a slatted rack effect possibly a drawer for easy cleanout (eyeballing).
Also a standard horiz with an entrance even with the floor is easiest for the bees to clean house, otherwise a beek may need a vacuum.

Stacking boxes vertically is what the bees would prefer as that will shorten up the travel distances even more than the above.
This is partly how a lang box/frame size came to be.
I see this as a downside to a layens as those large sheets of comb without communication holes will make for farther travel.
Unless I see a huge advantage I would not invest in less than popular common type gear,
although this is not an issue if you are going to build all of your gear and don't expect a high resale.
Really all this is picking nits, you need to get your hands on some gear and see what works for you.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

JustBees said:


> I recommend having both, but I prefer vertical.
> I like a layens frame size, but you will probably need to build it so it is compatible with lang gear for supering.


Depends, I did at first, but going forward I am not concerned about Lang. compatibility. I am not selling nucs, and installing a nuc in a deep Ukrainian is not a problem. I have very few Lang frames or supers so, for me, as long as I get good wintering in these hives I need only make supers and frames which fit my hives. The only consideration would be to make the frames so they can fit in an extractor and be able to put into the brood box later. So a super frame that is half the depth of my Ukrainian frame but the same width would fit into the brood nest and be the perfect size for a super. 

If a person is so inclined to start with a long hive and they only need worry about their own apiary, making them compatible with langs is not necessary. For me, out in the sticks, trying to order in Lang equipment is crazy expensive.



It is all about your future aims, your personal abilities at construction and your honey harvest ideals.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

crofter said:


> A good example is the fact that in my climate the end sections of the 19" Lang. frames not getting drawn out or used efficiently early season because they are too far from the heated cluster. Just too cold for waxmaking out in the suburbs! A frame with more depth and less width would be better here. Same dimension problems make them less winter worthy.


Like everything beeish there are opposites that work.. :^)

A lang frame over a slatted rack type bottom, she will lay all the way down to the bottom of the frame so the cluster/brood area size could be very near to a layens cluster.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JustBees said:


> I see a Horizontal hive as a *garden hive*, because it is not very flexable in configuration.


This perception has always been wrong in the North American view - a garden hive.
Some ideas are having very hard time to cross the pond.
It is getting old to keep ranting on the subject.
But I guess I will continue because who else will?

Here is just one example of a very solid honey operation - *nothing but long hives.*


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JustBees said:


> Like everything beeish there are opposites that work.. :^)
> 
> A lang frame over a slatted rack type bottom, she will lay all the way down *to the bottom of the frame* so the cluster/brood area size could be very near to a layens cluster.


Frank said:


> *the end sections* of the 19" Lang. frames not getting drawn


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

Same reason they don't always build out the 9th and 10th frame?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JustBees said:


> When someone says layens I visualise a basket ball size cluster, i don't think they will do well with small populations.


Picture a soft ball - no problem either.
I don't think - I do in practice.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JustBees said:


> Same reason they don't always build out the 9th and 10th frame?


That was the point.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JustBees said:


> It is difficult to check the weight of a horizontal because there is so much more structure to the hive and a scale will not be as accurate.


One needs not weight anything at all - that method is applicable to a commercial Lang business and where it belongs.

Methodology of long hives is different and it is stupidly simple in that.
Requires no weighing - it is just a quick visual check - I have ranted enough already.
Long hives are, in fact, recommended to the very beginning beekeepers due to the simplest possible and very forgiving management(*).

(*) - long hives on *large *frames - important clarification!


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

twd000 said:


> .
> Going to have a go at treatment-free and minimizing sugar feeding. I just need living bees, I don't need to optimize production.


If you have decided not to treat and not to feed, then get any type of hive you want. The results will be the same.


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## charliez (Sep 30, 2021)

Being newe as well, with bees on the way, I went thru these considerations as well. I decided on Lang's due to them being standard and familar with others local to me that can offer advice, and I didn't want to guessing at building a top bar with size and details. I actully order some put together myself hives on Amazon. They seemed pricey until I investigated the cost of materails to buld them myself and the time I would need to invest. The boxes are no big deal but getting them sized right and making the frame pieces and stil buying foundation, the extra price wasn't that far away to mess with. Plus, I prefer the idea of uncapping instead of destroying comb.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

GregB said:


> That was the point.


Hard to compare a conventional lang to an insulated hive.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GregB said:


> One needs not weight anything at all - that method is applicable to a commercial Lang business and where it belongs.
> 
> Methodology of long hives is different and it is stupidly simple in that.
> Requires no weighing - it is just a quick visual check - I have ranted enough already.
> ...


Right! long hives with deep frames. I dont think I would thank you for a long hive of medium Lang frames. 
The Layens hive with 16 or 18" depth frames can make for a very minimalist honey operation if you also do cut and strain harvesting. You could build everything needed with only a skill saw.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

crofter said:


> Right! long hives with deep frames. I dont think I would thank you for a long hive of medium Lang frames.
> The Layens hive with 16 or 18" depth frames can make for a very minimalist honey operation if you also do cut and strain harvesting. You could build everything needed with only a skill saw.


Gaaaaaa !!! a long lang medium? where did that come from? 2 steps backwards times 5

In that light, a Horizontal can be a top bar so you don't have to build frames they will be as deep as bees or box allows..


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I have physical issues so I went with 8 frame medium boxes vertical. But if I had to go horizontal, I'd make up a wider Langstroth hive, like the width of three 10 frame deeps.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JustBees said:


> Gaaaaaa !!! a long lang medium? where did that come from? 2 steps backwards times 5
> 
> In that light, a Horizontal can be a top bar so you don't have to build frames they will be as deep as bees or box allows..


You don't have to make any frames - as long as you have a box.
Top bars or scrap-made open frames is all that is necessary (though full frames are certainly nicer).
With a *single-tier *hive you can be as simple as you want OR as sophisticated as you wish - no restrictions.
Again, I ranted enough on that topic.
Here is at a typical open-frame I stapled from some scraps - works like a charm (picture).
When I have time and energy - I make proper full frames.

SO - making those slanted TB hives are IMO waste of time and material - creating nothing but inferior equipment and headaches for yourself forever.

Might as well make a box compatible to Lang equipment while at it - than use it to your advantage (pic of reused Lang frames - these can be extracted conventionally IF that is the supreme desire).
OR - use it with simple sticks Sam Comfort style - works just as well.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

We have gotten around to entertaining ourselves about the pros and cons of different frame arrangements and sizes but someone knocking on the door of beekeeping does not have the background to yea or nay any of it. Going with the most common double deep broods and medium supers is so much easier to choose. Easiest to get advice and strategy for.

I think there are cheaper ways to go and if the person was a bit handy with tools and really wanted to learn bees habits I would direct them to make up something along the Layens style that could initially be populated with Langstroth frames on end. Easy to get a nuc. Basic Layens frames are the simplest thing going to build and lend themselves well to foundationless comb. 

Just saw Gregs post come in. Yes frames can be scraps of this and that. Learn beekeeping on a very low budget and when you can keep them alive sucessfully you can branch out into whatever style suits you fancy or you can have some of each. You may get tired of beekeeping and it wont be hard to walk away from. Better than a 5000 dollar guilt trip.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> I have been ranting about forever how the Lang frames are NOT the best choice for long hives in our climate.
> You should know better @jtgoral, knowing very well about the true long Polish hives.
> 
> A sub-optimal frame choice does not make a long hive idea bad in general.
> IMO the very minimum frame spec for a long hive in cold climate is deep Dadant frame - then we can start talking.


I can't roll back my experience nor I want.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> I can't roll back my experience nor I want.


It's OK.

Certainly, I am satisfied with my own experience just as well.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Greg, would you say that the Lang frames are wider than ideal to get the better width to height ratio in a long hive?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

twd000 said:


> Crush and strain honey processing would be fine, though I understand it is a large energy burden to the bees for building comb?


as a kid we did not have an extractor, we did Crush and strain for many years, not a burden to the bees.



twd000 said:


> Just finished reading "Keeping Bees with a Smile" and the author makes a convincing argument for the geometry of Layens frame in cold climates - allowing the bees to migrate upwards throughout the long winter. I'm not sure how much the 9" depth of a Deep Langstroth is a compromise to the 16" depth of the Layens frame? Very hard to find any comparisons/studies as all the Ag Extension research only studies conventional vertical Langstroth setups.


I read the same book and used the double deep long lang hive design and modified it to have 2x4 insulated walls.
Actual the store 2x4 is 1.5 x 3.5 or so but that is what I used, I have some pine T&G scrap I put on the inside, and 1/2 inch green plywood on the outside. R11 pink insulation faced in between the "studs"
I am in Mich zone 5 ish and they winter the best of any hive I have.
the "outside plywood" piece is 48 inch to optimize the ply sheets. (lenght)
the inside dimensions I "created" by setting 2 deep frames on the table and making measurements.
I also made a "drawer" for under the hive to assist with cleaning.

If you like that style hive go for it. it was a fun project, I made 2.
I can tell you unless you have a fork lift you are not moving them, once bees are in them..

you can after the brood nest is developed (16-20 frames) add frames with a starter strip for you to , cut out for some honey for your self.

a standard deep nuc can be used to start them out.
And one year I had 16 over 16 frames (32) when inspecting I found Queen cells and broke it up into 6 - 5 frame NUCs

so NUCs in or out are doable, frames are standard, if you wish to just buy 100 and not fuss with making them, standard foundation works.

your idea is sound

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> Greg, would you say that the Lang frames are wider than ideal to get the better width to height ratio in a long hive?


Yes.
I have a strong opinion on this.
Indeed 300mm/12 inch width is sufficient and even then there is wiggle room.

Just going with even more narrow frame becomes less convenient for the operator.
~300mm/12 inch width is a good compromise for both the bee and the operator.

NOW - IF the Lang frame width is still desired by you for any reason - then I would strongly feel about going with the full Dadant frame at the very least.
While having the same width, proper Dadant frames are 25-30% larger - thus allowing for 25-30% more stores available within a single seam - which should be enough for the duration of the winter in ideal conditions.
With the full Dadants, the bees will be forced to move horizontally but this is OK as long as they they are not forced to cross the frames - nearly impossible in cold conditions.

Go here and start observing the discussion at 7:00 - a very good comparison of how the Ukrainian frame and the Dadant frame work over the winter - he discusses and shows in detail.
(I am really sad because this beek is located near Kiev - I can only hope he is doing OK but most likely not)


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> Yes.
> I have a strong opinion on this.
> Indeed 300mm/12 inch width is sufficient and even then there is wiggle room.
> 
> ...



Six/seven regular Langstroth deep frames rotated 90deg should be enough to overwinter in IL,WI,MI, to. 9" frame is good enough to accommodate 20-25cm diameter cluster and gives no place to move cluster sideways or accros frames. The only way is to go up. Six frames is another 9" in perpendicular direction.

@GregB : Matkovod is absent for last 3 days, too. 4 days ago the title was "The eighth day of war" and just before the war he was at a beekeeping show in Kharkiv:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> Six/seven regular Langstroth deep frames rotated 90deg should be enough to overwinter in IL,WI,MI, to. 9" frame is good enough to accommodate 20-25cm diameter cluster and gives no place to move cluster sideways or accros frames. The only way is to go up. Six frames is another 9" in perpendicular direction.
> 
> @GregB : Matkovod is absent for last 3 days, too. 4 days ago the title was "The eighth day of war" and just before the war he was at a beekeeping show in Kharkiv:


Sure.
Agree with everything you say.
If one wants to do it - why not.
I personally just don't feel like re-configuring the frames seasonally - a complication I don't care for.
My way is 300mm standard frame.

I have been tracking Matkovod - he is under huge stress and really has other priorities - forget the bees.
Notice - he is 100% in foam hives - this is entirely different story (frames and all).
Not only that - he has been manufacturing the foam hives himself (and video-reporting everything about the process).
Great guy - he shares tons of good information - terrible times.
Feel so bad for him (I guess he is "lucky" for the moment being based in the Western Ukraine).


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## twd000 (11 mo ago)

appreciate all the comments - I'm still reading and digesting the information

in the meantime, is there a reference that compares the common frame sizes? Langstroth, Lazutin, Layens, Dadant, etc?

Maybe with photos and dimensions? 

I saw the pictures of installing two Langstroth frames rotated 90-degrees and zip-ties together. How does this size compare to Layens frame size?


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

twd000 said:


> appreciate all the comments - I'm still reading and digesting the information
> 
> in the meantime, is there a reference that compares the common frame sizes? Langstroth, Lazutin, Layens, Dadant, etc?
> 
> ...


Is Google search working on your computer?


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

twd000 said:


> I saw the pictures of installing two Langstroth frames rotated 90-degrees and zip-ties together. How does this size compare to Layens frame size?


Two medium langs are longer than a layens but about the same width. When I built my deep hives I made them deep enough to accommodate both the layens and the rotated langs just in case. 

There is a lot of info on this site for you to pick thru on the types of long deep hives. If you google your question and add BeeSource to the search you will find it easier than searching this site alone. 

I have found that overthinking the hive types and getting hung up on both frame sizes, hive sizes and the best space at the bottom of the hive ends up being overwhelming. Pick a hive you like and go with it, it is not hard to adjust it or change it. Many beekeepers have quick fixes to adapt different hives with different frames, or with each other.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

ursa_minor said:


> Two medium langs are longer than a layens but about the same width. When I built my deep hives I made them deep enough to accommodate both the layens and the rotated langs just in case.
> 
> There is a lot of info on this site for you to pick thru on the types of long deep hives. If you google your question and add BeeSource to the search you will find it easier than searching this site alone.
> 
> I have found that overthinking the hive types and getting hung up on both frame sizes, hive sizes and the best space at the bottom of the hive ends up being overwhelming. Pick a hive you like and go with it, it is not hard to adjust it or change it. Many beekeepers have quick fixes to adapt different hives with different frames, or with each other.


Here is a pic of medium Lang frames zip tied together and a piece of Common #9 fence wire put through the ears to hang in a Layens width hive. An easy way to get frames for your Layens that can still be quickly taken apart and fit in regular cheap extractors. 

As Ursa says, just make hives deep enough to use this way and regular Layens frames still fit. Extra space at the bottom is not an issue.
Just one of many ways to skin a cat if you want to venture off the beaten path a bit.


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## mill-j (10 mo ago)

This is an interesting topic. When I started beekeeping years ago I spent a LOT of time scrounging materials and building several complete langs including frames, as buying them was not an option. The second year I was in sudden need of a hive. I built long hive and hived the swarm within a day. That was my favorite hive for quite a few years. Although I still use it, I've since noticed the langs are just too wide/shallow for a proper long hive. This is very apparent when you switch to all foundationless. Even in a vertical lang.

More recently I built a couple topbar hives. Very refreshing when compared to the complicated lang frames. Slightly deeper and the average width is narrower than the Lang even with the same 19" top bars. Fun to work, bees seem to do well, but not really viable for an outyard or farther north... The fragile combs didn't bother me since I'd been foundationless for several years in langs before trying top bars hives.

I built a Layens to experiment with. Back to building frames, although these are much more simple and they touch which is something I've really learned to like in the top bar hives. The Layens hive/frame size makes sense to me. The hive is a nice size not as long or bulky as a top bar or 30 frame long lang. If I had to start over, it would very likely be layens for me. Next in line would be top bar. 


I know the pros of the horizontal hive are often talked about, such as very low cost, easy to build, easy on the back, etc but I think the biggest thing for me is when I realized that I really do not need to store ANYTHING for these hives. Each hive is a complete self-contained unit. Anybody who keeps more than one or two langs knows how fast those boxes can eat up storage space.


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## twd000 (11 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> as a kid we did not have an extractor, we did Crush and strain for many years, not a burden to the bees.
> 
> 
> I read the same book and used the double deep long lang hive design and modified it to have 2x4 insulated walls.
> ...


Is this what you mean by a double deep Lang box? Natural Beekeeping | Free Plans | Double-Deep Long Hive
Wow, that is a big box! see what you mean about the weight. But mine will be stationary so not an ongoing problem
Could I install two colonies in this box and separate them with a divider board and separate entrances?
Can the bees bridge the gap between the upper and lower frames? Does the cluster move 18 inches vertically during the winter?
Do they propolise the frames together?
Have you ever run foundation-less frames in this system and allowed the bees to build their own cell size? Would I need to run support wires for the comb?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Ok then one at a time.



twd000 said:


> s this what you mean by a double deep Lang box? Natural Beekeeping | Free Plans | Double-Deep Long Hive


yes it uses 2 deep frames the same size as Lanstroth.



twd000 said:


> Wow, that is a big box! see what you mean about the weight. But mine will be stationary so not an ongoing problem


yes my nick name for it is the coffin, I do not move mine either



twd000 said:


> Could I install two colonies in this box and separate them with a divider board and separate entrances?


yes that is part of the design, put a NUC or Package in each end, can also populate 1 end then move part later to do a swarm control split.



twd000 said:


> Can the bees bridge the gap between the upper and lower frames? Does the cluster move 18 inches vertically during the winter?


yes in every Lang hive out there they bridge, some claim the bees cannot cross the gap, I have not seen that.



twd000 said:


> Do they propolise the frames together?


they propolize the same as in a 10 frame standard box, so yes.



twd000 said:


> Have you ever run foundation-less frames in this system and allowed the bees to build their own cell size? Would I need to run support wires for the comb?


I have some FL frames and will trend to more as the price for foundation is getting nutty.
they draw better if you put an empty between 2 brood frames, So "Some" foundation is a great starting plan and feather a frame or 2 in every couple weeks, All foundationLess will not always get drawn correct.

Again My walls were 4 inches thick with R11 insulation and 3 inches of foam on top, so warm and cozy.

I am opening it in a week or two when it warms, I can get so picks if you want, its a box with bees, so not sure it will help.

GG


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## James Lee (Apr 29, 2020)

crofter said:


> There is very considerable difference in peoples learning styles. Some people are much more comfortable with a scripted set of instructions and panic at the though of having to make choices. They are more dependable to follow instructions and color between the lines. Others are empowered by the need to make choices and do the abstract thinking. Some like the reinforcement of the group effort of a club atmosphere. Others like the self study and pull from their parallel skills. Not right or wrong.
> 
> Some people have had almost no experience handling tools or materials. Some have had extensive experience dealing with different animals and knowing their distinct behaviors.
> The advice we give about what is best beekeeping method to pursue should be based on the recipients abilities and inclination and not colored too strongly by our own personal repertoire of skills. Both these things hard at work here in this thread! Pretty much unavoidable.


Unless it's treatment free beekeeping.


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## b2bnz (Apr 5, 2009)

I appear to be a bit late to the party! BUT if you have not yet decided on a particular typw and design of hive, only want a few hives, live in a cold region, dont want heavy lifting, may I suggest that you, at least, look at an A-Z HIVE. Designed in Eastern Europe as a stationary hive for cold climates the hives are built into a bee house sothat both the bees and the beekeeper are protected from the elements. A vertical hive which opens from the back to inspections and harvest and you only handle one fram at a time. Search Google for a A-Z HIVE and see if this is what will suit your requirments. Good Luck with your beekeeping and remember...... if you want to make a small fortune from beekeeping, start with a large fortune.


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## Marezav (May 7, 2020)

As a new beek, I built 2 HTB hives. One was too short, so I built another that was the the same width and depth but longer. The longer one was going gangbusters until it wasn’t. Bees absconded 2 years in a row. The first year I am pretty sure was due to the excessive smoke during the fires here in Northern CA. Last year I am pretty certain it was bc the mite load was too high. It it quite difficult to treat for mights in a HTB hive and I wanted to go au natural. It is heartbreaking to lose hive after hive. The other issue that I found with that type of hive is the lack of ventilation. On one of the hives I tried to have an opening with tiny mesh on the bottom but that just attracted lots of yellow jackets, robber bees and ants. This year I am starting over with a Lang setup. There are a lot of local beeks that use Lang’s and I am hopeful that I can get a split. I have 2 setups and will start with 1 package, on the list for a swarm or a split. Good luck!!
[/QUOTE]


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## Wannabeebeekeeper (Jan 1, 2021)

twd000 said:


> I have the advantage of the beginner's mind - no preconceived notions of how bees "should" be kept
> 
> It's quite a bit of information overload to read about all the different variations of hive bodies: Layens, Lazutin, horizontal Langstroth with deep frames, etc.
> 
> ...


welcome, now be prepared to be attacked from every angle by the know it all Langstroth [_edited by moderator_] that love to pump toxic poisons, miticides, etc into their bee hives. most refuse to learn new ways. The Langstroth hives and pest treatments are how we arrived where we are today. If you follow DR Leo you will be on the right path. If you follow his live and let die policy you will lose some colonies along the way. That’s a lot better than continuing the practices of raising toxic bees with poisonous honey. the Layens hive or lazutin hives are far superior to a 9 inch deep frame in langs. I will be attacked for what I’ve written here today but it will be ignored by me. I will not read any of it. Follow your instincts to raise bees naturally and organicall. Horizontal hives are easier on you and your bees. No huge disturbances separating entire boxes. Okay [_edited by moderator_] fire away.


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

Don't blame hive physical differences for issues caused by unregulated migratory pollination practices, and the supporting package bee business.
A very large percentage of the bee population comes from just a few queen sources. Bred to suit the migratory lifestyle, with mites being a secondary concern.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Wannabeebeekeeper said:


> welcome, now be prepared to be attacked from every angle by the know it all Langstroth [_edited by moderator_] that love to pump toxic poisons, miticides, etc into their bee hives. most refuse to learn new ways. The Langstroth hives and pest treatments are how we arrived where we are today. *If you follow DR Leo you will be on the right path.* If you follow his live and let die policy you will lose some colonies along the way. That’s a lot better than continuing the practices of raising toxic bees with poisonous honey. the Layens hive or lazutin hives are far superior to a 9 inch deep frame in langs.* I will be attacked for what I’ve written here today but it will be ignored by me. I will not read any of it.* Follow your instincts to raise bees naturally and organicall. Horizontal hives are easier on you and your bees. No huge disturbances separating entire boxes. Okay [_edited by moderator_] fire away.


DR. in bold caps - LOL - there are more PhD's on this forum than may be apparent. It's just that - not being in the business of *selling* ideas - most of us don't see any need to advertise academic status ...

As a True Believer you're a *dangerous *person to be posting on a forum like this. Anyone who may be considering the possible merits of what you've written should first check out: Dead bees

You didn't listen then, and it would appear that you don't want to listen to the opinions of others now. Until you can consistently keep your own bees alive from one season to the next, you really ought not to be handing out advice or recommendations to others.
LJ


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Wannabeebeekeeper said:


> welcome, now be prepared to be attacked from every angle by the know it all Langstroth tards that love to pump toxic poisons, miticides, etc into their bee hives. most refuse to learn new ways. The Langstroth hives and pest treatments are how we arrived where we are today. If you follow DR Leo you will be on the right path. If you follow his live and let die policy you will lose some colonies along the way. That’s a lot better than continuing the practices of raising toxic bees with poisonous honey. the Layens hive or lazutin hives are far superior to a 9 inch deep frame in langs. I will be attacked for what I’ve written here today but it will be ignored by me. I will not read any of it. Follow your instincts to raise bees naturally and organicall. Horizontal hives are easier on you and your bees. No huge disturbances separating entire boxes. Okay lang tards fire away.


I think beekeepers a successful using all kind of frames and hive types. Beehavers blame everything , including wrong type of frame or hive, except themselfs for the lack of success.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Wannabeebeekeeper said:


> Okay [_edited by moderator_] fire away.


Hmmmm?????? me thinks I need to scroll on by.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Wannabeebeekeeper said:


> ......... If you follow DR Leo you will be on the right path. If you follow his live and let die policy you will lose some colonies along the way.
> ........... Okay [_edited by moderator_] fire away.


This inflammatory rhetoric and attention-wanting demonstration of obvious ignorance were not necessary here. 🙄


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

b2bnz said:


> may I suggest that you, at least, look at an A-Z HIVE.


Over-engineered gizmo.
I don't think people looking for the features presented by a horizontal hive (simplicity is #1) will find the same in the A-Z hive.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mill-j said:


> Each hive is a complete self-contained unit. Anybody who keeps more than one or two langs knows how fast those boxes can eat up storage space.


For the record - one needs NOT to be keeping the boxes separately.
One might as well just keep the stack as-is (it can be partially empty - this is a non-issue).
I do it and still don't see what is that "storage issue" is about - it really isn't an issue.

PS: if you are a large commercial operator - then it is different for efficiency reasons.


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## twd000 (11 mo ago)

let's keep the *****ing and bickering to a minimum - I asked for opinions on hive body geometry, not for/against treatments

appreciate all the constructive advice - keep it coming


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## twd000 (11 mo ago)

one thought as I ponder hive body construction - is there a reason why people use thick 2x lumber, rather than thin plywood plus insulation?

I'm thinking about building a box like a cooler - thin plywood walls with blue foam board sandwiched in between

2x12 solid lumber is HEAVY and only has an R-value of 1.4 per inch. Blue foam board is light and has an R-value of 6 per inch.

Seems like you get a lot more insulation per pound by building a foam sandwich instead of a solid wood coffin.

2x solid wood is overkill for structural integrity; I just need the box not to warp, don't need to park a vehicle on top of it.


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## Murdock (Jun 16, 2013)

GregB said:


> Because you need not to lift supers and other heavy things?
> 
> I am a totally fine walker and don't require a wheel chair.
> But I do have a bad shoulder.
> ...


I made it to 75 yrs. and a hobby beek for 10. If you want strong hives, healthy bees and a honey crop you WILL treat and you WILL have the times when you feed. You need to have an explicit understanding of those two things, meaning you need to know when to start / stop, how much and what to use. In Eastern NC we seldom have brood breaks, winters are relatively mild, summer temps melt comb and humidity is high. Mites, small hive beetles, yellow jackets, hornets, wax moth all want a piece of your crop. You will want to start out using some standard stuff (boxes/frames) that you can switch between hives, for example if a hive needs feed and another has surplus you borrow from one to help the other. Hive types are personal preference and location thing, Bees in nature live in tree cavities. Some resources: scientificbeekeeping.com - Dave Cushman website - 628dirtrooster on YouTube - barnyardbees on YouTube. I built my boxes, 2 - double deep Langstroth 8 frame and a 48" longhive that uses deep lang frames or bars.
The long hive has a screened bottom that can be closed off with slide in oil pans. Join a bee club, work with an old beek for a season, buy / use local bees. Good luck......


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

twd000 said:


> one thought as I ponder hive body construction - is there a reason why people use thick 2x lumber, rather than thin plywood plus insulation?


I used it for ease of construction, I am not real handy but I can cut a board. 8 cuts, and voila!!! hive is constructed. For the frame rest I just nailed and glued a strip of wood around the upper edge. I wish I had built one like Gray Goose, but I found this site after my construction was complete. That said, a screw and washer afixes rigid styrofoam insulation quick and easily to the outside for winter prep.


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## Discos_Dead (Sep 28, 2013)

For what it's worth, I started with a single Kenya Top Bar Hive about six years ago, and two years ago built two insulated Layen's hives and frames based on the plans available at Horizontal Hives. I was fortunate enough to have access to scrap lumber, but still decided to simply buy two swarm traps from Horizontal Hives rather than build them from scratch. I bought the insulating wool from a sheep farm out in North Dakota. "Bee Boy Bill" (YouTube) has video series about building Layen's frames, traps and hives (though his are not insulated) that I found useful. https://www.youtube.com/c/BeeBoyBill/playlists

I find the Layen's frames easier to examine because I can set a frame on top of the other frames and lean the top against the inside of the open roof, whereas I feel I can't set the the top bar comb down anywhere because it is potentially too fragile, especially in hot weather. However, last year I did build a simple type of crate that I could hang the top bar comb in should I need to.

Finally, I was treatment-free for about five years, but was disheartened by winter losses. At the advice of Frederick Dunn (also on YouTube) I began treating with Oxalic Acid vaporization last year. I bought a simple vaporizer (Gas-Vap) that connects to a small canister of butane and delivers the vapor through a tube. I drilled three holes in the backside of each hive so that I could treat without having to open the hives (my hives have 1.25" holes with circular entrance gates - not really efficient for delivering Oxalic Acid vapor treatments). The holes are plugged when not in use. 

It's been too cold or windy here for me to feel safe enough to open up the hives to see if they made it through the winter (I'm in northwestern PA, USDA zone 5a), but it looks like one of the colonies has made it so far (the insulated Layen's) - the Kenya Top Bar may, or may not be OK. The second Layen's hive is empty, but I have two traps out now and hope to have some success there (the filled Layen's hive are bees that I caught last spring). 

Good luck, whatever route you decide to take!


----------



## mill-j (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> For the record - one needs NOT to be keeping the boxes separately.
> One might as well just keep the stack as-is (it can be partially empty - this is a non-issue).
> I do it and still don't see what is that "storage issue" is about - it really isn't an issue.


True enough and I have done some of that, however this is not advice you'd find in a book or at the local bee club 

Just curious: Do you have SHB problems up there in Wisconsin? No idea how far north they are a problem or if they are just everywhere but We have them pretty bad down south here...


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mill-j said:


> True enough and I have done some of that, however this is not advice you'd find in a book or at the local bee club
> 
> Just curious: Do you have SHB problems up there in Wisconsin? No idea how far north they are a problem or if they are just everywhere but We have them pretty bad down south here...


No SHB problems here, outside of occasional cases from southern nucs.
Even if SHB, you'd want to avoid storing the SHB damageable stuff in the boxes above the bees - just that.


----------



## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

mill-j said:


> True enough and I have done some of that, however this is not advice you'd find in a book or at the local bee club
> 
> Just curious: Do you have SHB problems up there in Wisconsin? No idea how far north they are a problem or if they are just everywhere but We have them pretty bad down south here...


I have them from time to time near Chicago. I do not know if they are a problem yet. Last summer they were visible in couple hives and went away. I saw couple of them a month ago in my well insulated hives.It should be above 50F next week and I am going to put pollen substitute patties into my hives. I will look for SHB.


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## mill-j (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> No SHB problems here, outside of occasional cases from southern nucs.
> Even if SHB, you'd want to avoid storing the SHB damageable stuff in the boxes above the bees - just that.


Right but in my experience it greatly increases the amount of area the bees need to patrol for SHB and the ever invasive ants, making for grouchy bees. Follower boards seem to be much more affective than inner covers but YMMV.




jtgoral said:


> I have them from time to time near Chicago. I do not know if they are a problem yet. Last summer they were visible in couple hives and went away. I saw couple of them a month ago in my well insulated hives.It should be above 50F next week and I am going to put pollen substitute patties into my hives. I will look for SHB.


Around here they are kinda on standby in every hive and then when a hive weakens enough they take over. I'm costantly experimenting in hopes I can come up with a foolproof, mechanical way to stop them in their tracks but so far I haven't been able to completely eliminate them.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mill-j said:


> Right but in my experience it greatly increases the amount of area the bees need to patrol for SHB and the ever invasive ants, making for grouchy bees.* Follower boards seem to be much more affective than inner covers but YMMV.*


I already said this about 59034 times......  Use. Soft. Inner. Cover.

It is configurable, flexible, and performs just as well as follower board.
A piece of plastic - that is all the equipment needed.


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## Beedad (Dec 27, 2020)

twd000 said:


> I have the advantage of the beginner's mind - no preconceived notions of how bees "should" be kept
> 
> It's quite a bit of information overload to read about all the different variations of hive bodies: Layens, Lazutin, horizontal Langstroth with deep frames, etc.
> 
> ...


I would encourage checking out this site DEEP Horizontal Bee Hive Ideas | barbara-westfall (bwestie.wixsite.com) Barbra has info that helped me. While I'm in eastern Kansas I am going to try an insulated double deep Langstroth. As you will read in her info Barb didn't care for them because of the height required to pull the frames out. She is in Canada so her intel would probably be much better than others.

Dr. Leo brought out some good points in the _Keeping Bees With a Smile _book_. _As I'm just starting it will be interested to see how they work. Please keep in mind I am not going to move the full size DD hives. I am however building a 10-frame DD Langstroth so I'll will be able to move them. My intention is to stack regular supers on them for honey in my 'out yards.' My goal? To keep the girls fat and sassy so they don't have to work at staying warm or cool. Good luck with your endeavors!!


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Beedad said:


> As you will read in her info Barb didn't care for them because of the height required to pull the frames out. She is in Canada so her intel would probably be much better than others.


I am not sure I understand, the height doesn't cause a problem pulling frames so I don't get her point.

I also think that the complex construction of the frames is not necessary, make them with all the same width of wood and use screws or wood as frame spacers. I spent a winter agonizing and building the layens frames and IMO it was a total waste of time and resources.

This picture is not of my frames but another BS member, sorry can't remember who, but just screw on a top bar and you are done.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> This picture is not of my frames but another BS member, sorry can't remember who,


@little_john


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Beedad said:


> I would encourage checking out this site DEEP Horizontal Bee Hive Ideas | barbara-westfall (bwestie.wixsite.com) Barbra has info that helped me. While I'm in eastern Kansas I am going to try an insulated double deep Langstroth. As you will read in her info Barb didn't care for them because of the height required to pull the frames out. She is in Canada so her intel would probably be much better than others.
> 
> Dr. Leo brought out some good points in the _Keeping Bees With a Smile _book_. _As I'm just starting it will be interested to see how they work. Please keep in mind I am not going to move the full size DD hives. I am however building a 10-frame DD Langstroth so I'll will be able to move them. My intention is to stack regular supers on them for honey in my 'out yards.' My goal? To keep the girls fat and sassy so they don't have to work at staying warm or cool. Good luck with your endeavors!!


I suggest you actually study this sub-forum:








Top Bar & Horizontal Hive Forum


Top Bar, Layen, Ukrainian, any other horizontal hives.




www.beesource.com





Pretty soon you'll have the better understanding of the subject than from those books.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

GregB said:


> Pretty soon you'll have the better understanding of the subject than from those books.



Not to mention all the links to youtube Ukrainian/Russian beekeeping posted on BS.


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## mill-j (10 mo ago)

GregB said:


> I already said this about 59034 times......  Use. Soft. Inner. Cover.
> 
> It is configurable, flexible, and performs just as well as follower board.
> A piece of plastic - that is all the equipment needed.


What thickness plastic do you use?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mill-j said:


> What thickness plastic do you use?


Any heavy-duty, see-through poly-ethylene film is fine.
I have no clue of the proper thickness - not that important.

For example, I use the electronics bags and hardware wraps - because I get lots for free here.
Another example - a huge plastic bag that came along with a mattress we recently bought - I mean to cut it up just for the covers.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

And so - your simply either 1)slide the soft plastic so to create a partial access to the boxes above the nest OR 2)fold it and do the same.
Just as well, use regular fabric cover just the same (but the bees will eat through it in time - not critical but be aware)
Plastic is more robust in this usage case.

So - either horizontal or vertical - very similar storage space management ways are usable.
The horizontal hives do not have monopoly here (regardless what people may say).
Still, there are differences of course.


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## phildpfs (Jan 26, 2020)

I did the same thing as you are thinking….
I am a carpenter/builder and enjoy new challenges of all types. I read through Dr. Leo’s books and got a lot of ideas from them but wasn’t sold on everything, especially with climate/location/environmental differences.
My primary goal was pollination as I’ve been observing a steady decrease of pollinators on all of our berry plants, secondary was educational and curiosity, last was honey. I had/have no plans on selling and we don’t use a lot. Zero interest in commercial and no need to move hives.
Promised myself and family that I would limit it to 3 hives and no more. Another advantage of building your own….you can’t just go out and buy more to expand.
Details-
-Everything was built from ground up.
-Hives are 38” long (interior) and the same width as a Lang.
-Walls are ¾” rough ship-lap inside and out with 2” foam core.
-Floor is 2” foam with 1/2”ply top/bottom (same ¾” rough pine around edge) and swings down for bottom access.
-Top is 4” foam with ¼” ply and the roof above
-Each can fit about 24 frames
-Top bars are designed to touch. Still not sure about that decision. Can see pros and cons.
-Each frame is made up of 2 large Lang-size frame held together with a side rail and screws so they can come apart and be dropped in an extractor.
-Tried both foundation-less, ½, and full foundation. Quickly figured out some did great and had beautiful, straight comb, others really need the foundations.
-I really wanted to be treatment free but that only lasted about a month. The first time I saw a few mites on the bees first hand and realized it would be like having a basketball-size tick on my chest it was a quick, “yea, were not doing that here” and a plunge into researching how to treat in a non-Lang setup.
-That turned out to be a challenge. Most of what is out there is obviously designed for Langs and adapting it to this type of hive is challenging. Having touching top bars made it even worse (definitely one of the glaring cons of that design) I tried the most recent version of Hopguard (a disaster) and MAQS. Neither did what it should, possibly because of user error or the hive design….or both. I finally tried OAV and have stuck with it. It has been perfect for this type of hive. The only challenge I am still sorting out (sort of) is keeping it off the honey that may be harvested.
-Lost one hive the first winter but already had a feeling by late summer that it had poor leadership and I was too new to try the hive tool test/experiment.
-Fed a LOT the first year as they had to build everything from scratch. Much less (almost none) last spring/summer.
-Other 2 hives have been going strong, even after a likely accidental owner/operator induced queen rolling last summer. They did what they are supposed to do, made a new queen, and seem even stronger.
-Having an empty hive allowed me to make a modification to a glaring design error and hope to rotate the other 2 out to do the same before a new package arrives this spring. The entrances are 4” above the screen floor. I knew bees died and were carried out by workers but missed the part where in Langs they can just drag them out. Watching the workers try to move the dead up and out was painful. Spring cleanup was exciting and risky as it involved a Shopvac and a bunch of really annoyed bees. The bottom board now drops down and out so dead bees can just be brushed out.
-Have only had a chance to quickly look in this spring and all seems good. Very busy on the warmish days already. Still have plenty of reserves but will take a deeper look when we get a good warm day and I can pull things apart.
-The first year I was in the hives quite often trying to figure it all out and amazed by the whole thing. The second year was much less, both because of schedules and also trying to let them do their thing without me pulling their house apart so often. Like everyone says, you do start to figure out their rhythm and moods just by watching and listening. Some days I go in with just gloves and a hat, other times in full head-to-toe gear.
Hope that helps! Definitely worth doing it in any form!


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## twd000 (11 mo ago)

ursa_minor said:


> I am not sure I understand, the height doesn't cause a problem pulling frames so I don't get her point.
> 
> I also think that the complex construction of the frames is not necessary, make them with all the same width of wood and use screws or wood as frame spacers. I spent a winter agonizing and building the layens frames and IMO it was a total waste of time and resources.
> 
> ...


so the frames are uniform 3/4" on all four sides, then screwed into a wider top bar so they touch at the top?


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

Why put frames in a top bar hive?


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

twd000 said:


> so the frames are uniform 3/4" on all four sides, then screwed into a wider top bar so they touch at the top?


no the top bar is the same width but thinner, they do not touch at the top. I bought these spacers but I believe, although I cannot fine the picture now, that LittleJohn used screws to make the spaces between. I suppose you could also use other spacers such as the metal inserts that screw into the hive body itself. There are many ways of spacing frames. 











JustBees said:


> Why put frames in a top bar hive?


I believe it is not a top bar hive but a deep horizontal.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

JustBees said:


> Why put frames in a top bar hive?


These are horizontal deep frame hives being discussed; not top bar hives.

View attachment 68003 The frames pictured used same width material for top, sides and bottom bar. Commonly would be about 1" wide. instead of using Hoffman style shoulders for frame spacing they use the slip on plastic pieces or can be spaced with a screw or pin projecting from the sidebar to establish bee space.

Also being discussed is a two piece top bar which consists of a separate longer piece which creates the projecting ears to hang on the frame rebates of the hive body. That add on extra top piece could be same width as side bars or 1 3/8 or 1 1/2" to make closed top frames. That would also serve as frame side spacers. If you are ever considering putting supers above, closed top bars could be a problem. Probably a desireable feature if you have mean bees that jump in your face. I will use soft covers of Reflectix and use the Lang style top and side bars.

We are not all on the same page perhaps!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

This post has some photos of a variety of spacers used with Hoffman style frames:








hybrid steel/wood side bars


Does anyone know who manufactured the hybrid endbars where the wood was as wide as the topbar, and a strip of stamped tin was nailed on and over the top to create the normal endbar width? I am melting down about 1,000 frames to renew with wax foundation, and bumped into several of these. I...




www.beesource.com






And there are photos of the screws that @little_john uses as frame spacers here:








different size deep horizontal hives


Ok - staying a little more on topic - FWIW - here's my effort at producing double-deep frames - these were/are intended to be used as standing frames in something approaching an A-Z hive: And with a starter comb, and a top-bar added so that they can be drawn out within a stack of two standard...




www.beesource.com


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

phildpfs said:


> I did the same thing as you are thinking….
> I am a carpenter/builder and enjoy new challenges of all types. I read through Dr. Leo’s books and got a lot of ideas from them but wasn’t sold on everything, especially with climate/location/environmental differences.
> My primary goal was pollination as I’ve been observing a steady decrease of pollinators on all of our berry plants, secondary was educational and curiosity, last was honey.  I had/have no plans on selling and we don’t use a lot. Zero interest in commercial and no need to move hives.
> Promised myself and family that I would limit it to 3 hives and no more. Another advantage of building your own….you can’t just go out and buy more to expand.
> ...


Sweet setup Phil,

Mine are almost the same.
differances:
the 2 lang frames are separate, have a lower rail
regular top bars
drawer under for debris removal.

My original design was like yours.
I had a swinging bottom. Made the whole bottom like a door, end had hinges, could swing it down and sweep off the floor. And look at the bottom for queen cells. (I push mine to swarm stage and then harvest swarm cells.)

I had lang gear first so , this is just a custom style. mine were a fun build.

Good luck, you seem to have figured out a few things for how bees are. Pay attention, they will teach you all you need to know.

GG


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> And there are photos of the screws that @little_john uses as frame spacers here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting that link Graham, it saved me having to explain those frames again  The intended A-Z style hive never did get built - I started to make a few components, such as these frame spacers:










but I gradually began to realise just how much work and precise woodworking was involved. As I could have made a complete Long Hive in the same time as it took me to make those spacers, I decided to abandon the project. Those frames have stayed inside the double brood-box stack where they were placed to be drawn-out, and the colony on them has come through Winter ok without any problems.

Just in case anyone else is tempted to use small screws for frame spacing, I found that making-up some go/no-go gauges saves a lot of time when ajusting them. Here's a shot of three that were handy:










I've actually made quite a few of these using cut-up tongue depressors and a dial vernier, from 32mm up to 38mm, which is the range I'm most interested in.
'best,
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> The intended A-Z style hive never did get built - I started to make a few components, such as these frame spacers:.........but I gradually began to realise just how much work and precise woodworking was involved.
> LJ



IMO the largest share of the AZ hive "advocates" are those who have 1)little beekeeping experience and/or 2)little hive building experience.
Once you think it through or maybe even start working the project - the scale of over-engineering becomes obvious.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

little_john said:


> I've actually made quite a few of these using cut-up tongue depressors and a dial vernier, from 32mm up to 38mm, which is the range I'm most interested in.
> 'best,


Wow, I am always thankful I come to BS, there is someone who has a quick tip that makes my life easier.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> IMO the largest share of the AZ hive "advocates" are those who have 1)little beekeeping experience and/or 2)little hive building experience.
> Once you think it through or maybe even start working the project - the scale of over-engineering becomes obvious.


You talking about Slovenian beekeepers, right?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> You talking about Slovenian beekeepers, right?


It is a cultural thing as well as it is justified in their conditions - in the Balkans.

But then we have all kinds of US beekeepers getting excited about the idealized picture of the AZ shack (without fully understanding the benefits and the drawbacks). Those US people I am talking about.

I keep track of this Canadian beek.
Interesting fact - for the last two years now he has not been talking of his AZ shacks (he has two) 
He tried AZ system; he knows what it is about; he moved from talking about them.
He is still using his shacks, but I highly recommend to watch his videos about those shacks and realize what they are about.


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCraGqc73DPYFPsxrzMLNSmg/videos


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> It is a cultural thing as well as it is justified in their conditions - in the Balkans.
> 
> But then we have all kinds of US beekeepers getting excited about the idealized picture of the AZ shack (without fully understanding the benefits and the drawbacks). Those US people I am talking about.
> 
> ...


I tried Long Lang, Lazutin Lang, Top Bar and moved away from them. To much space to hold one queen if one can have three queens in the same space


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> I tried Long Lang, Lazutin Lang, Top Bar and moved away from them. To much space to hold one queen if one can have three queens in the same space


But do realize - AZ has the same issue - you maybe using entire shack to have those same three queens. 
It takes a whole house to hold three queens?

The key point is - the entire AZ shack IS the hive.

Do you need just a simple chest freezer?
Or do you go for a commercial walk-in freezer for your needs? 
Certainly, you can buy yourself a walk-in - it works too.
I have two cheap chest freezers - sufficient for my needs - simple and cheap and efficient.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is just one example of live AZ operation.
He says - "convenient, easy to operate, blah...."....
I just smile. Kidding me?

Not convenient, not ergonomic, not easy to operate (or construct), low propolis bees are mandatory; mild bees are absolutely mandatory (as I would not want to choke myself breathing all that smoke in the shack).
The only real positive - you may operate in the AZ shack in rainy weather (meaning ALL bees are in the hive - which again makes it a hassle).
Watch carefully:


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> ...
> I have two cheap chest freezers - sufficient for my needs - simple and cheap and efficient.


I have only one


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> I have only one


@jtgoral, two thumbs up for this hack! 
You should try to market it; no kidding.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> @jtgoral, two thumbs up for this hack!
> You should try to market it; no kidding.


Most hombrewers know this


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## jfh00jfh (Jun 20, 2018)

I have both Langs - long and stacked-traditional. I built some Layens hives and they worked well but I sold because I didn't like having two widths of frames.


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## Mikro (9 mo ago)

twd000 said:


> I have the advantage of the beginner's mind - no preconceived notions of how bees "should" be kept
> 
> It's quite a bit of information overload to read about all the different variations of hive bodies: Layens, Lazutin, horizontal Langstroth with deep frames, etc.
> 
> ...


What have you decided to go with?


----------



## Mikro (9 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> as a kid we did not have an extractor, we did Crush and strain for many years, not a burden to the bees.
> 
> 
> I read the same book and used the double deep long lang hive design and modified it to have 2x4 insulated walls.
> ...


What frame model do you use? Sounds like we are in the same area.


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## Mikro (9 mo ago)

b2bnz said:


> I appear to be a bit late to the party! BUT if you have not yet decided on a particular typw and design of hive, only want a few hives, live in a cold region, dont want heavy lifting, may I suggest that you, at least, look at an A-Z HIVE. Designed in Eastern Europe as a stationary hive for cold climates the hives are built into a bee house sothat both the bees and the beekeeper are protected from the elements. A vertical hive which opens from the back to inspections and harvest and you only handle one fram at a time. Search Google for a A-Z HIVE and see if this is what will suit your requirments. Good Luck with your beekeeping and remember...... if you want to make a small fortune from beekeeping, start with a large fortune.


Where can I get plans to the A-Z HIVE?


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## Mikro (9 mo ago)

jtgoral said:


> I tried Long Lang, Lazutin Lang, Top Bar and moved away from them. To much space to hold one queen if one can have three queens in the same space


Why did the Top Bar and the Lazutin not work out for you? Would DM you but my acct won't allow it. What hive model are you going with now?


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Mikro said:


> Why did the Top Bar and the Lazutin not work out for you? Would DM you but my acct won't allow it. What hive model are you going with now?


Top Bar was difficult to keep warm in Chicago winter.

Lazutin honey frames were very heavy, brood frames difficult to manipulate. Extracting honey was a pain because I had to split frames and later bind them again.

I use 6 frame over 6 frame deep Lang boxes for the broodnest. Three columns have the same footprint as one Lazutin but I have three queens going into winter. I put queen excluders and two 10 frame suppers on the top of those colonies..


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## AVoit (9 mo ago)

Mikro said:


> Where can I get plans to the A-Z HIVE?


Mikro are you aware that A-Z-Hives are vertical hives that you access the interior by opening the vertical back-wall. They are designed to fit a type of beekeeping involving a shed-size structure? Like the following:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> *Three columns have the same footprint as one Lazutin but I have three queens going into winter.*


With the understanding that IF the space a non-issue - these "per queen footprint" savings are irrelevant.

Only in a cramped Chicago backyard three queens in the space of one is a valid advantage. 

PS: yes, the 6-frame verticals have other benefits too - but this is a different subject.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

AVoit said:


> Mikro are you aware that A-Z-Hives are vertical hives that you access the interior by opening the vertical back-wall. They are designed to fit a type of beekeeping involving a shed-size structure? Like the following:
> View attachment 68486
> 
> 
> ...


With the understanding that these structures are hugely overengineered and costly vs. just simple, cheap horizontal hive. 
Hardly compatible that way.
I would not state the A-Z and long hives are alternatives to each other - far from it.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> With the understanding that IF the space a non-issue - these "per queen footprint" savings are irrelevant.
> 
> Only in a cramped Chicago backyard three queens in the space of one is a valid advantage.
> 
> PS: yes, the 6-frame verticals have other benefits too - but this is a different subject.


Yeah, right. Look like his backyard is cramped:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> Yeah, right. Look like his backyard is cramped:


That is a management decision (in that video).
Like I said - the 6-framer have other benefits too.

But 3-queens on a small foot print is not really the *main *benefit - which may sound like so to many people (specifically the beginners, like in this talk).

The real benefit is - ability to combine 3 queens for large honey harvesting machine using standard equipment - THAT what you refer to, NOT the physical footprint (even if it appears so).

YES - IF you are cramped for space, you do want to consider the space. But IF you have 10 acres, don't think of that irrelevant benefit.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> That is a management decision (in that video).
> Like I said - the 6-framer have other benefits too.
> 
> But 3-queens on a small foot print is not really the *main *benefit - which may sound like so to many people (specifically the beginners, like in this talk).
> ...


It is space saving for me and please do not tell me what I am referring to 
In the same space I have 3 colonies working into 2 suppers instead of 2 colonies working into 2 suppers.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> *It is space saving for me* and please do not tell me what I am referring to
> *In the same space I have 3 colonies *working into 2 suppers instead of 2 colonies working into 2 suppers.


Like I said - *for you.*
It is important for you.

But a new beekeeper must understand your situation and his own situation and what matters for whom.
Since he is looking into the *horizontal hives *- that is what matters to him for some reason.

This is like coming to a dealership to buy Honda Civic and coming home with F-150 - because the dealers convinced you so. 
Essentially you are trying to convince a person who looks into the long hives that he really needs are 6-frame vertical set instead because it is "*better"*. 

What I am saying - the person must understand their own needs and wants and abilities first - *only then *go and shop for a car (but stick to the program when shopping).
Everyone has different needs and wants and abilities.

Basically, once someone is looking into the horizontal hives, they by default are NOT looking into maximizing their honey crop from a small footprint.
At the least they must understand this pretty obvious fact.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Mikro said:


> What frame model do you use? Sounds like we are in the same area.


Lang deep and medium

GG


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> Like I said - *for you.*
> It is important for you.
> 
> But a new beekeeper must understand your situation and his own situation and what matters for whom.
> ...


Mikro asked three personal questions and I answered all three of them. I said nothing more. Please read it again.


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## twd000 (11 mo ago)

Mikro said:


> What have you decided to go with?


well, my indecision has led me to conclude "why not both?"

Firstly, I decided to "learn the rules before you break the rules" - so I'm going to buy a conventional vertical Langstroth hive to house a purchased nucleus colony. I have no limitation in lifting boxes, and the design is familiar to local mentors who can help me.

In the meantime, I'm going to hang some swarm traps to get some more colonies going. I'm going to build a custom Layens-inspired design, but not rigidly conforming to those frame dimensions. Frame will be wide enough to accommodate a Langstroth frame, and probably 20" deep, so nearly square. It will be a double-wall box with EPS insulation. Details to follow


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> Mikro asked three personal questions and I answered all three of them. I said nothing more. Please read it again.


Good point @jtgoral.
Sorry.
Was no need for me to get into this technical nit-picking (NOT in this particular talk).


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> If you were starting today to all the knowledge you have, but none of the equipment - what style of horizontal hive would you build?


Probably either a Langstroth deep (9 1/8" frames) or a Dadant deep.(11 1/8" frames). Mostly because standardization is a wonderful thing. You can still take a Langstroth deep frame and put it in the Dadant deep hive if you need to give them a frame of brood from somewhere. Or you can only get a nuc in deep frames. As it is, since all my hives are mediums, I build mine for mediums, but the deeper frames work somewhat better.


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## Rschmidt63025 (Jun 4, 2016)

twd000 said:


> well, my indecision has led me to conclude "why not both?"
> 
> Firstly, I decided to "learn the rules before you break the rules" - so I'm going to buy a conventional vertical Langstroth hive to house a purchased nucleus colony. I have no limitation in lifting boxes, and the design is familiar to local mentors who can help me.
> 
> In the meantime, I'm going to hang some swarm traps to get some more colonies going. I'm going to build a custom Layens-inspired design, but not rigidly conforming to those frame dimensions. Frame will be wide enough to accommodate a Langstroth frame, and probably 20" deep, so nearly square. It will be a double-wall box with EPS insulation. Details to follow


Putting out swarm traps is an excellent idea. One of Dr. Leo’s and Fedor Lazutin’s key principles is to get wild, local bees, who understand the local nectar flow rhythm and have learned to deal with the pests. People will counter with “Everything is local In beekeeping”. But, the key is that the bees know the local conditions. A Nuc, package, or queen from Florida or Texas won’t “know” the local conditions, and won’t start building up brood 6 weeks in advance of the expected main spring flow. That makes a lot of sense to me.

I’m in the process of switching from vertical to horizontal, because heavy boxes and crushed vertebrae don’t mix well. I went to Dr. Leo’s 2 day workshop a couple of week’s ago, and finished Fedor’s book yesterday. Been keeping bees for several years, just as a hobbyist, keeping between 2 and 8 hives. The 2 hives I have now have been great hives, and are swarms from swarm traps. I plan to try to continue to only catch swarms, vs. buy Nucs or packages. I think it’s a matter of chance whether the swarms I catch are “wild”, from my own yard, or someone else’s yard. But, to increase the odds, I think I’ll be putting swarm traps at our near family farm, surrounded by a lot of National forest.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Rschmidt63025 said:


> ....... get wild, local bees, who understand the local nectar flow rhythm and have learned to deal with the pests. .....
> 
> But, the key is that the bees know the local conditions.


Unless the bees are imported - which is the case in most of the USA.

Research the issue a little, at least for your *local *situation.
Very likely in your local case there will be NO local bees to speak of.

“Everything is local In beekeeping”


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I just notice another advantage to my Ukrainian hives. I am in the north so I need to wrap my hives up for winter. I put 2 inch styrofoam around the hives and more on top. Now, with spring advancing quickly and temps of 26C forecast in a few days I want to go into them and look at the combs and inspect. My Langs will be a total knock down as I will need to take off the insulation and remove each box, my Ukrainians, on the other hand, I need only pull out the filling in the top quilt box, remove the feeding shim and voila! I can inspect as I wish.

The benefit is I can leave all the insulation on, we may be heading to spring but the chance of some cold weather is not over for a few weeks yet.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> My Langs will be a total knock down as I will need to take off the insulation and remove each box, my Ukrainians, on the other hand, I need only pull out the filling in the top quilt box, remove the feeding shim and voila! I can inspect as I wish.


or one can build in the insulation (thick wall) and just leave it all season.

GG


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> or one can build in the insulation (thick wall) and just leave it all season.


If one had been bright enough to read this site prior to building a 2.5" thick wooden hive one would certainly have done that 😂. Next hive I will be better prepared.


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## Rschmidt63025 (Jun 4, 2016)

GregB said:


> Unless the bees are imported - which is the case in most of the USA.
> 
> Research the issue a little, at least for your *local *situation.
> Very likely in your local case there will be NO local bees to speak of.
> ...


@twd000 : The nice thing about catching swarms is (1) They came from a hive that was doing well enough to “procreate” and (2) They’re free!

Yeah, I know there’s nothin’s free in this world. But, with just a little investment in materials and labor, you put some boxes together, place them in good places, check the boxes every couple of weeks, and Voila! You have a hive of bees. And, maybe they’re wild, and maybe they’re not. But, they‘re now yours. and, bee swarms often hit the same place. I’ve caught 3 swarms in my “favorite” tree.

If you want to learn more about increasing your chances of getting the bees to “bite”, a few good resources are “Honeybee Democracy” by Dr. Tom Seeley, “The Lives of bees”, also by Dr. Seeley, and “Free Bees!” by Grant Gillard.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Rschmidt63025 said:


> @twd000 : The nice thing about catching swarms is (1) *They came from a hive that was doing well enough to “procreate”* and (2) They’re free!
> 
> Yeah, I know there’s nothin’s free in this world. But, with just a little investment in materials and labor, you put some boxes together, place them in good places, check the boxes every couple of weeks, and Voila! You have a hive of bees. And, maybe they’re wild, and maybe they’re not. But, they‘re now yours. and, bee swarms often hit the same place. I’ve caught 3 swarms in my “favorite” tree.
> 
> If you want to learn more about increasing your chances of getting the bees to “bite”, a few good resources are “Honeybee Democracy” by Dr. Tom Seeley, “The Lives of bees”, also by Dr. Seeley, and “Free Bees!” by Grant Gillard.


Just so you know - *depending on the location*, lots (if not majority) of swarms also come from imported packages and "nucages" that have been sold in early season.

This often has nothing to do with the bees that are *"doing well",* but rather they are ahead of the inbound location by about 2-3 months in the annual development cycle whilst they are also sold to unexperienced beeks (with appropriate "management").

This happens all the time when bees are imported into the northern states from CA and GA after their pollination projects are finished.

How do we know?
Because we catch too much of these junk bees.
As a matter of fact, 80% of the swarms I catch are actually of this origin, the imported pollinator bees.
Yes - they are free but they are still junk for my and similar locations (if any long-term, localized beekeeping is attempted)

Simply these aspects of the "migratory swarm" trapping are not discussed in the Dr. Seeley books and thus people get all the wrong messaging - they naively think they catch local and/or feral bees and all that non-sense.
*There are exceptions!* - but generally this is how it looks.

OK, we've been discussing these and other topics in here for years - in the "swarming" sub-forum.

Swarms, Trap-outs, and Cut-outs | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


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## twd000 (11 mo ago)

how do you distinguish local feral bees from imported pollinator bees (without cheating and checking their passports)


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

twd000 said:


> *how do you distinguish *local feral bees from imported pollinator bees (without cheating and checking their passports)


You don't - without testing them through at least 12-24 months.

This is what I have been doing for the last 6 years (including the morphological study I did a year ago).

80% chance of a random swarm to be pollinator-grade bees (in my location).

However, the darker is the bee, the better it is for my area - because it is more likely to be of Carnica/Russian heritage (better in cold climate). Yellow(ish) bees are most likely the pollinator bees. This is a quick pre-test.

Another "however" - lately I get signals of more and more interesting bees imported into my area - VSH/Russian/"ankle-biters"/..... Just because of this I have high interest in the swarm chasing - catching interesting bees is always possible (though the likely-hood is not a sure bet). I have caught some before.

Just the idea of catching "feral" bees is usually flawed for most places - the "feral" bees are just not widely available - something that newly minted beeks must understand.

Go ahead and test and see for yourself.
Your results may vary, especially if you are in some of the promising locations - see the TF forum for such locations - there are indeed places with the real feral bees.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregB said:


> This often has nothing to do with the bees that are *"doing well",* but rather they are ahead of the inbound location by about 2-3 months in the annual development cycle whilst they are also sold to unexperienced beeks (with appropriate "management").


Just like this "classic" - *2 week old NUC swarmed.*
2 week old NUC swarmed. | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


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## Rschmidt63025 (Jun 4, 2016)

@twd000 My limited experience with catching swarms is they're not junk bees and its worth the effort

Another topic for consideration for your horizontal hive is foundation. If you go with a "standard" frame dimension, you'll be able to purchase foundation to put in your frames, which should increase the chances that bees will stay "within the lines" of the frame. Langstroth frame dimensions (and foundation) are easy to find on the internet. Lazutin and Layens dimensions are on https://horizonalhive.com, under the "plans" link. You can also buy Layens foundation from that site. Don't know about Lazutin foundation.

The argument for a deeper frame in a horizontal hive is that the bees will start their winter cluster on the bottom of the frames, and work their way up, moving up 1mm / day here in Zone 6. And, it's a lot easier for the bees to move up than trying to move laterally to another frame.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Rschmidt63025 said:


> @twd000 My limited experience with catching swarms is they're not junk bees and its worth the effort
> 
> ...
> 
> The argument for a deeper frame in a horizontal hive is that the bees will start their winter cluster on the bottom of the frames, and work their way up, moving up 1mm / day here in Zone 6. And, it's a lot easier for the bees to move up than trying to move laterally to another frame.


This is the first time I hear in US the *1mm/day* idea . I know it from Polish beekeeping sources.

Moving 1mm/day up means that they consume a *1mm layer of food per day*, right?

So if my winter is 150 days my bees need 150mm of stores for winter. If the cluster occupies 6 frames (20-25cm dia cluster, ~ 9") you can easy calculate how much capped stores you need for winter.

My well insulated 6FR over 6FR hives survived on 6 deep Langstroth frames of capped Wallmart sugar syrup in Zone 5 (Chicagoland). It is less then ~42lb because they did not use all of it..


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## Rschmidt63025 (Jun 4, 2016)

jtgoral said:


> This is the first time I hear in US the *1mm/day* idea . I know it from Polish beekeeping sources.
> 
> Moving 1mm/day up means that they consume a *1mm layer of food per day*, right?
> 
> ...


I heard the 1mm/day at Dr. Leo's workshop. Yes, I believe that's what he meant: 1mm layer of food per day. That was his experience. I haven't verified that number in my hives yet.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

jtgoral said:


> My well insulated 6FR over 6FR hives survived on 6 deep Langstroth frames of capped Wallmart sugar syrup in Zone 5 (Chicagoland). It is less then ~42lb because they did not use all of it..


How "well insulated" are your 6FR boxes? Can you elaborate on the thickness of wood and insulation? I'm in the same zone(IL/WI border). Just curious, thanks.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

bjorn said:


> How "well insulated" are your 6FR boxes? Can you elaborate on the thickness of wood and insulation? I'm in the same zone(IL/WI border). Just curious, thanks.


R26 roof and R6 sides, no upper ventilation, open screened bottom board all winter. 13 out of 13 alive and doing very well.


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## bjorn (Aug 7, 2013)

R26 roof and R6 sides, fiber or poly? How thick?


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

bjorn said:


> R26 roof and R6 sides, fiber or poly? How thick?


I started a conversation with you


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