# Treatment Free thoughts . . . someone correct me if i'm wrong



## Nature's Gold Apiaries (10 mo ago)

Hi, I'm pretty new to this forum-thing so hopefully I'm getting this in the right place.

I've been having this thought crystalizing in my mind over the last 2 years after having totally dumped the miticides and trying to manage my hives in a more 'natural' form.
In regards to honeybee survival and colony losses: are we asking the wrong questions?
1. It seems that the prevailing thought of the day is that we are losing way too many colonies each year over the US and beyond.
2. Tom Seeley says in his book The Lives Of Bees that only 20% of feral swarms each year actually make it through their first winter yet it seems that the population of feral bees that he studied managed to maintain themselves over time.
I guess my question is this. Should we be surprised and so distressed over losing, say, 50% of colonies each year? Those of us who have dropped miticides may find this a reality (at least I have) yet I believe that even 50% is still sustainable. (Granted, you won't find a business advisor who promotes this theory but who said beekeeping is a 'business'. It looks more like Ag to me.) As the saying goes "bees make more bees". To me, as long as I have some good hives left to work with in the Spring I'm happy even if it's only 50% or less of what I went into winter with. I know, to most beekeepers out there this would be terrible if not devastating. But here's the point. . . If I want, say, 40 hives to work with in the Spring then my goal is to go into winter with maybe 120 colonies with a lot of those as 4f or 8f nucs. Even if I lose over 50% of this number I still will have a few good overwintered nucs to sell to help recoup expenses.

This train of thought has definitely affected the advice I give newbees. Folks ask me what the best way is to keep bees if they only want 1 hive in their backyard. My answer to that is 'you won't be able to do it, at least not sustainably and without miticides. If you want 1 hive next year then you need to go into winter with 3 or 4.'

I'm really excited about the teaching I see coming out about using nucs for sustainability. I believe this is the message that should be 'shouted from the housetops'.
It's time that we stop trying to raise/manage bees like other livestock because they are radically unlike any other livestock. Just ask any beef farmer how he would like to be able to grow his herd 4x each year without having to spend a dime on new stock. And you thought us beekeepers have it hard???

I know, I'm liable to destroy my relationships with commercial beekeepers by this view point and I recognize my advantage in that I'm not making a living by my beekeeping. . . but is it time to accept honeybees as they are instead of trying to force them into some 'industrial ag' mindset and then prop up our hives with chemical treatments?
Enough of my rant. . . I certainly welcome any input on this. I recognize that on a TF forum I may have a lot of support for my theory but from what I see it doesn't seem like many of the Big Shots in the beekeeping world are saying anything like this. It's all treat, treat, treat or else you're not a responsible beekeeper. Which, btw, is what I tell newbees as well. I'm not saying everyone should go off miticides 'cold-turkey' but, again, are we asking the wrong questions. . .


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Nature's Gold Apiaries said:


> It's time that we stop trying to raise/manage bees like other livestock because they are radically unlike any other livestock. Just ask any beef farmer how he would like to be able to grow his herd 4x each year without having to spend a dime on new stock. And you thought us beekeepers have it hard???


You might not get many answers to your question as this subject has been hashed and rehashed but I do know that there are some very successful TF beekeepers and it is doable in some situations the trick is finding out if you can do it in your area. 

As a beef farmer sure 4X increase every year would be great, if we had to take a 50% loss, then still in the clear. But in a beef operation no farmer would accept such a loss and even with a 4X increase they would be seen as inept and incompetent.
IMO beekeeping is like beef farming, you raise them as you wish but because you are the ones charged with their care and you are the one who keeps them confined to your requirements you are responsible to do what is needed for them to survive. To get to that end TF can be the answer for some, for others not so much.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Nature's Gold Apiaries said:


> Should we be surprised and so distressed over losing, say, 50% of colonies each year?


As I started my "treatment-free" project I postulated - if I get stable 50% survival, I'd be happy with that.
Well, fast forward *5 years. *
I stayed with the program.
My average TF survival turned out to be 13% over 5 years.
Enough. 
This is not sustainable at my location.
Change of plans.

Short answer - you should find out what your local conditions are and go from there.
Right on this forum some people have 80% of survival practicing TF (find out who and where they are).

So - this is not YES or NO.
This is - it depends.
Find out for yourself.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I've kept bees TF for a few years, but like GregB above, it was more like 85-90% losses and what did survive were so weak they'd take all spring and summer trying to build back up and never got much or any honey off of them. Each year that went by, the losses were greater over winter, and they'd come through so weak that making splits was problematic, to the point of it being a lost cause. My location is one problem. The other problem was my management style. I've thought of trying it again, changing my management somewhat, but I don't see it working out for me in my location. It's just too much easier to treat. So many dead or diseased as winter ended was getting depressing. I know others do OK or even well with it, but none that I know of in my location.


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## Muddy creek (Jun 25, 2019)

Several beekeepers around me were treatment free. Now they are bee free. I’m sure it works in some places with very low mite loads and intensive work on brood breaks and such but you have to try it and see if it works in your location. Find other keeps in your area who have tried it.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

We are pretty rural so TF worked quite well for a long time for us. Our losses were between 10-30% each season for many years. We 'try' to have a dozen or so colonies go into Winter, so we're not a big outfit by any means. We just like bees and honey.

Then a BK with more money than time set up several yards all around us (2016-17), convincing many of our neighbors he was trying to 'save' the bees. 

His bees mostly died the first and second years, despite heavily treating, and he has since moved on (Thank Goodness), although the bee yard fences he installed remain. Our own bees began dying the year following this fellows dismal attempts at creating an income. No one must have told him it was hard work. We never once caught him working his bees, and we've come to believe he would just set them up in the Spring, install packages and 'hope' for some form of miracle success. 

We have since learned that he sold his few survivors that were split into as many NUC's (as few as one frame of brood) as fast as orders came it (I've spoken about this unscrupulous practice in these pages before), making some return on his investment I suppose, even if acquired perniciously. We don't know if any of these artificial/fake NUC's survived.

Anyhow, we've since began treating our bees 'lightly' - but we don't believe it will work in the long run, but will instead enrich the suppliers of 'treatments' and will assuredly extend the amount of time bees would require to fight varroa themselves.

What's killing honeybees? It's us, it's always been us.


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## oldsap (May 1, 2016)

As a beef farmer sure 4X increase every year would be great, if we had to take a 50% loss, then still in the clear. But in a beef operation no farmer would accept such a loss and even with a 4X increase they would be seen as inept and incompetent.

If you let 50% of your beef die because you refused to treat them properly the authorities would lock you up. And rightly so. Bees are livestock and need to be treated as such. They are a responsibility we take on and as beekeepers we should be held to account for their health. Imagine letting your dog die because you have twice as many puppies as you think you need every year so you don't get them vaccinated.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Nature's Gold Apiaries said:


> This train of thought has definitely affected the advice I give newbees. Folks ask me what the best way is to keep bees if they only want 1 hive in their backyard. My answer to that is 'you won't be able to do it, at least not sustainably and without miticides. If you want 1 hive next year then you need to go into winter with 3 or 4.'


Have read you really need more than four to allow for random factors. So just one would be extremely difficult and disappointing without a back up plan.

There are treatments that do not involve miticides such as thermal, however they are quite expensive for just one hive. Plus the one I personally believe is best is still unavailable due to supply chain issues. Used ones do come up for sale occasionally and are snapped up instantly.

Year one, overwintered seven out of seven (one summer loss) six of which were 100% TF.
Year two, overwintered four out of twelve  Eleven 100% TF. One that received a single thermal treatment was amongst the survivors.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

it is a math game,, so if you are OK with wintering 100 to get 25 in the spring then that is certainly your choice.
different areas can be done TF and some , read Gregs posts, cannot be.
so a several year test is in order.
you will know if this is the path for you or you need to change.

some of us are on the path, some have changed, really it is a matter of what your results are.

bee race , location, your abilities, all will factor in.

try if you feel you have a good chance at it.

GG


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

OXA is cheaper than a new package of bees. It was always the case for me. A varporizer is a one time expense ( thank you @johno).


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## RNSwans (Jul 3, 2021)

My question,
Do TF beekeepers onsider oxhalic and formic acids as chemicals, or as natural, organic options?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Successful rearing bees TF is statistically much more difficult in colder climates. The varroa mite and its vectored disease is a greater handicap in the north. Having total isolation from migratory bees would up the odds, but not many places provide that. It is generally considered that being TF demands more knowledge and dedication than treating. I would not depend at all upon luck


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

Nature's Gold Apiaries said:


> I've been having this thought crystalizing in my mind over the last 2 years after having totally dumped the miticides and trying to manage my hives in a more 'natural' form.


Years ago, I tried TF as well and like others the losses are 85% to 90%. I think most beekeepers try TF at some point and get a reality check. There's nothing wrong with trying it as long as you keep mite numbers down with IPM and euthanize colonies that get infested with mites. Just like owning a dog kennel you need to treat dogs for ticks, fleas, or mange mites, or have them euthanized before they spread to other dogs, or worse to your neighbors dogs.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Nature's Gold Apiaries said:


> Should we be surprised and so distressed over losing, say, 50% of colonies each year?


And BTW, if one to reliably have 50% loss year after year - this is actually a fine, sustainable model IMO.
You can actually target those lost colonies for the honey harvest (how I have been doing all along).

I have no problem sending each year 10-15 colonies into the winter - this is really trivial to do (not to mention catching 2-3-more swarms annually as partial loss make up).
Send 10 colonies into the winter - restart with 5 colonies in the spring (harvest the dead outs) - totally doable and sustainable, BUT the 50% needs to be a predictable and repeatable number.

However, once the reliable loss year after year is 80-90% - that becomes unsustainable and unproductive.
With such high loss rate, most of the annual work ends up being apiary recovery (and potential recurring expenses - if one to keep buying the bees).

So IMO if 50% reliable loss rate can be had while being lazy and very low maintenance (set it and forget it) - that very much makes sense to me.
I only wish I could do it - but no cigar.

You should try and see for yourself.
BUT - keep in mind several factors that play against the TF - if have any of these your TF chances are* not as good:*

urban/suburban location
having lots of beekeepers near (hobby or commercial - including migratory)
having a lot of imported packages/nucs sold annually in your area
colder climate/longer winter
Also, the following factors seem to favor the TF:

remote/rural location in Ohio valley/Appalachia region/Southern states (yes - again and again these areas seem to report the TF successes).
having strong feral/Russian/AHB population in your area (yes - better get used to working the hotter bees).
absence of migratory beekeeping in your area (obviously).
absence of imported packages/nucs sold annually in your area (obviously again).
presence of *real, practicing *TF beekeepers in your area - those who are repeatedly doing this and can actually confirm this and even sell the bee/queens (vs. just the story tellers and theoreticians with nothing to show for it and hiding their real losses).
These are some of the considerations.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The bees are dealing with an unnatural enemy! The European honeybee has no natural developed resistance to the trans continentalized Asian parasite; the Varroa mite!

I figure we caused them the problem so now we own it! I give them a helping hand and they give me some honey.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

RNSwans said:


> My question,
> Do TF beekeepers onsider oxhalic and formic acids as chemicals, or as natural, organic options?


Chemicals


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

RNSwans said:


> My question,
> Do TF beekeepers onsider oxhalic and formic acids as chemicals, or as natural, organic options?


Well, consider that both oxalic and lactic acids don't really pollute the honey and the brood nest at the levels created by the treatments.
(I don't know about the formic, but it is still natural organic acid just as oxalic or lactic acids are).
Especially the lactic acid - we routinely consume it in our foods (the oxalic acid is little less common in the food, and yet still common enough).

The real question is:

is the chemical (however natural and organic it is) naturally occurring in the honey bee nest or not - at the levels created by the treatment?
and do you care? is it harmful to you or the bees to care (at the levels presented)?
Sounds like you need to study up as the chemical *can be* both natural, organic options and not.


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

crofter said:


> I figure we caused them the problem so now we own it!


We? I never shipped western honeybees in and out of Asia.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think you must be joking. Anyway the we, is anyone with european honeybee! Varroa destructor did not get going on this continent till the eighties.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

IMHO; Any substance the bees wouldn't bring into their home themselves should be considered a treatment.

Even feeding syrup or patties can be (is) considered a 'treatment' by many who successfully keep bees, just not me


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

crofter said:


> I think you must be joking. Anyway the we, is anyone with european honeybee! Varroa destructor did not get going on this continent till the eighties.


Agreed, anyone who has gotten packages, NUC's or even caught swarms over the last 40 years has inadvertently contributed to the problem. 

Moving bees around the country/globe has had a detrimental effect on honeybees. I can think of no positive effects.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The constant large scale movement creates problems of the original importing of an Asian parasite to which our Eurpean bees have no defences. Varroa had developed an ancient and fairly sustainable _status quo _with the Asian apis ceranae honey bee but not so with the European.

Some 2,000,000 colonies exist in the US and something like 75% of that number are moved to almonds in California and afterwards to points all over the US as far as Maine blueberries etc. Little pockets of local resistance have developed but the overwhelming influence of the drones of the pollinator bees makes it virtually impossible to put a dent in establishing and solidifying the resistance traits. Most of the easily available replacement nucs and packages are also heavy to the pollinator traits so that perpetuates their genetics.

The pollinator bees are very good at what they do, but dealing with varroa is not one of their strong points! It is not going to be easy to change the game because of the way the odds are entrenched.


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## BeeLady73 (10 mo ago)

RNSwans said:


> My question,
> Do TF beekeepers onsider oxhalic and formic acids as chemicals, or as natural, organic options?


That’s a great question, and one I’ve never been able to get a straight answer for, from anyone; including the folks that sell the treatments. Since we do use these treatments,
we don’t advertise any honey we sell as ‘organic.’


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

All of the honey we sell (or give away) is labeled as 'raw' and described as "twice filtered from the hive" along with instructions of what to do when/if it turns solid.

We only have up to a dozen colonies on any given year, so we have no problem telling folks who insist on something else to shop at Wallmart for their 'maybe' honey.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

BeeLady73 said:


> That’s a great question, and one I’ve never been able to get a straight answer for, from anyone; including the folks that sell the treatments. Since we do use these treatments,
> we don’t advertise any honey we sell as ‘organic.’


Oh, you will get straight answers. A different one from each person you talk to! 
Here's mine. Oxalic and formic are chemicals (duh) and are treatments. They are not natural in any sense that makes sense to me, since they are being applied at rates far higher than would occur naturally in any beehive. Whether they are 'organic' or not is a legal question, not a scientific one, and depends on the local/state/national laws.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

RNSwans said:


> Do TF beekeepers onsider oxhalic and formic acids as chemicals, or as natural, organic options?


well lets start with the forums rules Unique Forum Rules


> The users of this forum have decided to agree on a single definition for "Treatment-Free Beekeeping" for the sake of context in posts and threads in this forum.
> 
> *Treatment: A substance introduced by the beekeeper into the hive with the intent of killing, repelling, or inhibiting a pest or disease afflicting the bees.*


In anyones book (including the EPA) a "treatment"

I have seen people call them selfs "chemical free" as a buzz word...when pressed many say they say they use "organic compounds" not "synthetic chemicals"... despite the fact that the OA,FA, and thymol they use are synthesized

the description I fee is the most accurate and still has marketing buzz is "organic management" IE the COMB study COMB




BeeLady73 said:


> we don’t advertise any honey we sell as ‘organic.’


jaust about no one in the US can do the the EPA regs (or lack there of), yet its easy to import "organic" honey do to epa defaulting to the home counrtys standards









USDA Organic Honey – What Does It Mean?


USDA Certified Organic Honey: what it really means. Includes the lack of official regulations, the recommendations often followed in the US, and what it means on imported honey.




brookfieldfarmhoney.wordpress.com


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## Some Bloke (Oct 16, 2021)

crofter said:


> Successful rearing bees TF is statistically much more difficult in colder climates. The varroa mite and its vectored disease is a greater handicap in the north. Having total isolation from migratory bees would up the odds, but not many places provide that. It is generally considered that being TF demands more knowledge and dedication than treating. I would not depend at all upon luck


Can you give a source for this data please? Having been TF for 10 years and studying the subject for that time I have never seen this.

I always assumed TF would be harder in the SOUTH due to shorter winter brood break.

To answer a question elsewhere on this thread - yes TF beekeepers consider both oxalic and formic acid to be chemicals which we would not put in our hives.

Regarding the original post. 23% survival rate of swarms is obviously sustainable if the parent colony is mothering 3-4 swarms a year and survives a few years itself. The populaton will maintain but may not produce huge honey harvests. Some old time skeppists on forage rich heaths deliberately promoted swarms, the economics being that every colony would produce lots of honey so the more he merrier - but disease was less prevalent. You might find instead that in modern conditions a better balance is fewer swarms, keeping mother colony numbers strong.

May I ask what your colonies died of? If queen failure, that is not correlated to TF.

In my area the TF beekeepers' losses are essentially identical to those of intensively managed hives, varying between 15-30% per year depending on weather. But my area is Britain where the bees and forage are undoubtedly different to yours.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

msl said:


> jaust about no one in the US can do the the EPA regs (or lack there of)...


There is the Certified Naturally Grown...



Litsinger said:


> At its core, the apiary program through 'Certified Naturally Grown' differs from the USDA Organic program in three (3) main areas:
> 
> 1. The beekeeper is responsible only for the inputs they can control.
> 2. There is an allowance for the use of organic chemicals for mite control.
> 3. The program is built on peer review (versus professional inspectors).


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Nature's Gold Apiaries said:


> I guess my question is this. Should we be surprised and so distressed over losing, say, 50% of colonies each year? Those of us who have dropped miticides may find this a reality (at least I have) yet I believe that even 50% is still sustainable.


@Nature's Gold Apiaries- You have received some good feedback here so I won't rehash what has already been stated. 

Returning to your original question / proposition, my humble opinion is that you alone ultimately get to decide whether your efforts are a success or a failure. 

Thus if you are able to meet your objectives and find satisfaction in your work within a system of 50% annual losses then I would suggest that you need not be distressed.

This is not to say that you won't seek to improve your process and learn what steps can be taken to improve survival and promote sustainability- only that if it works for you at 50% losses then I say stay with it. 

As regards what is needful to succeed in a TF context- I think the variables are myriad and many of the bigger factors have already been noted. That said, I think one area that is often overlooked and may play and outsized role is the role of the honey bee in the process of developing resistance. We (present company included) are often guilty of not learning all we can from what the bees are trying to accomplish in their efforts against pests and diseases.

A good talk along these lines is the following:



Litsinger said:


> The central premise of his talk is the famous axiom by Kentucky's own Wendell Berry, _We cannot know what we are doing until we know what nature would be doing if we were doing nothing._


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Some Bloke said:


> I always assumed TF would be harder in the SOUTH due to shorter winter brood break.


Some people assume that.
But consider that the critical mass of the cluster to survive the upper US/Canada must be larger - once you experience the significant enough attrition and drop below the critical mass - you are done. And then you have 4-6 months of hard freeze to keep up that critical mass.
Then if anything disturbs the bees consistently too much (mites will) - then the quality of the wintering does down - chances are good you are done.

So up North it hits you from both ends - mite push from one side and the continuous cold pushes from the other.

Pretty much the UK is not really the North.  
It is temperate enough and that's where it is.

Down South you can get away with many things.
Besides, they get the summer brood break (if the bees are right).


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Some Bloke said:


> Can you give a source for this data please? Having been TF for 10 years and studying the subject for that time I have never seen this.
> 
> I always assumed TF would be harder in the SOUTH due to shorter winter brood break.
> 
> ...


Britain may be north when judged by degrees latitude but not northern climate by North American standards. Not many people manage TF here for more than two years. With temperatures common to -35 to 40C and shut in for 4 months, mite loads must be minimal all year to avoid devestating nosema. My bees did not get a cleansing flight from some time in December till about 4 days ago. Some winters it is even longer.

I had big losses one spring and summer due to confirmed EFB and one winter from suffocation in iced solid bottoms. Other than that I have had close to 100% survival over 10 years with 6 to 10 colonies. Many people even token treaters dont do nearly so well and I dont know of any being treatment free for longer than 2 years. I go into winter with usually zero mite fall judging by sticky boards. 

My original mentor was a bee inspector for northern Ontario. He had a hundred colonies of his own. He did not know of any who had been successful more than 2 years TF and very few beyond 1 year. Viral levels accumulate unless mite levels are maintained well below what used to be considered treatment thresholds. Strictly controlled comparisons of effectively treated and non treated colonies in the north dont support that survival and production rates are even close.


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## Some Bloke (Oct 16, 2021)

Thanks, very interesting. I wondered uf you were going to say AHB genes made southern stock hardier.

British bees are pretty much all resistant to Nosema Apis, not sure about n. Ceranae but I think it is rare here. SHB has not arrived in the country yet.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregB said:


> Some people assume that.
> But consider that the critical mass of the cluster to survive the upper US/Canada must be larger - once you experience the significant enough attrition and drop below the critical mass - you are done. And then you have 4-6 months of hard freeze to keep up that critical mass.
> Then if anything disturbs the bees consistently too much (mites will) - then the quality of the wintering does down - chances are good you are done.
> 
> ...


one more thing to add is DWV and the Variant DWV-b and now an "anorexia" Virus, all effect the bees ability to produce heat. heat production is not an issue in the south, VRS where we may have a week of 0 or lower temps.

Randy O has a couple articles old bees/cold bees that help explain this "feature" of mite infestation.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Some Bloke said:


> I wondered uf you were going to say AHB genes made southern stock hardier.


No one really studied this that I know about.
But the AHB could be in the mix.

All in all - the long, winter brood break is not it - it does not control mites.
Put that theory away.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregB said:


> All in all - the long, winter brood break is not it - it does not control mites.


I am not sure we can conclusively make this claim yet- I believe it is dependent upon what mechanism(s) are acting to confer resistance.

For example, in colonies that actively utilize allo and auto grooming it might be expected that the longer broodless period allows for more complete removal of phoretic mites.

That said, it does not appear that the length of time of winter clustering in itself is a huge factor relative to mite populations- the latest study on the subject I can find (Fries et al 2001) suggests,

_ ... a daily mite death rate of 0.004 per day during periods of no brood rearing._

So basically inconsequential.

I also acknowledge that there appear to be more examples of survival stock in Southern climates- the following Supplemental Information from the Grindrod and Martin study indicates a lot of examples South of the 45th Parallel... but I wonder if this is at least partially due to socioeconomic dynamics (i.e. population density, land use conditions, etc.) rather than strictly environmental variables.

Finally, I came across this little gem from last year, which builds on their previous study:

Summer weather conditions influence winter survival of honey bees (Apis mellifera) in the northeastern United States

From these data I take away three things:

1. Varroa mite infestation level is the single largest predictor of wintering survival.
2. All things equal, colonies experience greater average survival in milder and wetter environments.
3. The ability to successfully thermoregulate (i.e. cluster size relative to cavity volume and insulation level) is likely a more acute limiting factor in TF operations in Northern climates.

Thinking through all this, it seems that there might be different genetic architypes that would better confer survival in a TF context North versus South:

North- lower, more consistent egg-laying rate that allows for stable colony / foraging population once the flow begins. Minimizes mite population growth over the season to allow for a large cohort of Winter bees to be reared.

South- higher, more variable egg-laying rate that allows for explosive colony / foraging population to take advantage of Spring flow and tapers-off significantly prior to the dearth. Exhibits lengthy broodless period before rearing Winter bees in sufficient number to carry the colony through to the other side.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> I am not sure we can conclusively make this claim yet- I believe it is dependent upon what mechanism(s) are acting to confer resistance.


It really down to the bees, again.

Some bees can not even tolerate the long winter flightless period at it is (let alone tolerate the mites harassing them).
I just came back from my post-winter rounds - while I have 100% survival, some bees barely made it (they are just not good at wintering up here - all the wrong instincts).


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

GregB said:


> It really down to the bees, again.
> 
> Some bees can not even tolerate the long winter flightless period at it is (let alone tolerate the mites harassing them).
> I just came back from my post-winter rounds - while I have 100% survival, some bees barely made it (they are just not good at wintering up here - all the wrong instincts).


GregB; Seems to me that claiming a 100% survival rate, while also stating "they are just not good at wintering up here" is a rather confused (misspoken?) conclusion. You must be doing many things right for these numbers, despite those colonies that 'barely made it' - no?

We're three hours North of you (zone 3) and would be thrilled with 100%, but have come to accept 50% as our new normal. So, I'll be paying more attention to your methods in the future, adapting or adopting what I learn.

REMINDER; Survival itself is instinctual ....jus sayin'

Happy Spring!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

drummerboy said:


> GregB; Seems to me that claiming a 100% survival rate, *while also stating "they are just not good at wintering up here" is a rather confused (misspoken?) conclusion. You must be doing many things right for these numbers, despite those colonies that 'barely made it' - no?*
> 
> We're three hours North of you (zone 3) and would be thrilled with 100%, but have come to accept 50% as our new normal. So, I'll be paying more attention to your methods in the future, adapting or adopting what I learn.
> 
> ...


I can say I perfected some of the techniques while trying to keep the bees alive within the TF framework.
But the mite control was the elephant in the room - in my situation.
No matter how hard I tried, the elephant trampled all over my efforts anyway.

Once I removed that elephant - the things just clicked as I am pretty good at keeping the bees alive (equipment and techniques combined).
I ranted about the stuff plenty by now. 
For sure, this is not set-it-and-forget it - does not work in my setting.

Regardless, some of the bees are so worthless in my setting (not misspoken) - they still winter poorly (despite pretty good management on my part).
Brooding all way into December is a terrible trait - just one example of the bees "not good at wintering here".
Even in the most ideal mite control situation, some bees are still not fit for cold climate/long winter wintering.


----------



## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Mites are the elephant in everyones yard! But apparently you've solved the problem with 100% survival rate.

Brooding late into winter implies the queen doesn't know its winter or has ancestors who originated in warmer climes. Do you raise your own? What type? What makes some bees 'worthless?"

Italians are known to brood all winter, but Saskatrans and Russians seem to know the difference and slow down. Please satisfy my curiosity regarding queens you use and why you believe 100% survival is a failure.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

drummerboy said:


> Mites are the elephant in everyones yard! But apparently you've solved the problem with 100% survival rate.
> 
> *Brooding late into winter implies the queen doesn't know its winter or has ancestors who originated in warmer climes. Do you raise your own? What type? What makes some bees 'worthless?"*
> 
> Italians are known to brood all winter, but Saskatrans and Russians seem to know the difference and slow down. Please satisfy my curiosity regarding queens you use and why you believe 100% survival is a failure.


@drummerboy,
See:








GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.


Speaking of the OAD/LAD treatment I tested and happy with.. Virtually week ago I had an opportunity to talk to a group of people. It felt as if the idea of "treating while splitting" did not cross too well. At least some people did not seem to grasp it and kept asking the same over again...




www.beesource.com


----------



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

drummerboy said:


> Please satisfy my curiosity regarding queens you use and *why you believe 100% survival is a failure.*


Not a failure; I did not state that.
Rather once the mite factor is largely removed - other bee traits become more evident.
For example - good wintering traits vs. poor wintering traits.


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## greenbeehives_5643 (Dec 12, 2021)

I have a hybrid form of TF. Tried split and split and split and got tired of just "treading water" in my bee yard and not going anywhere! So, here are the two solutions I came up with, one for SHB and one for varroa. First, I designed the IPK screened bottom board with a cooking oil tray under a 6x6 mesh screen. This screen is bigger than the normal screen bottoms which SHB cannot fall through. The benefit of this screen is the bees can chase the SHB down into the tray of cooking oil, and since they cannot swim, bye-bye. Cooking oil and vinegar is used as salad dressing, so GAAS (generally accepted as safe) unless you are a beetle that cannot swim. First day in service the bees eliminated over 100 SHB from their hive, second day 50, third day 25...since there were fewer in the hive each day. 
Second, with the help of Hugh Feagle, a beekeeper of the year in AL and an electronics engineer, we took the idea of using solar to heat the hive and eliminate Varroa and changed it into a more dependable 12v battery. The Victor heats the hive up to 106F+ and cooks the Varroa in 3 hours for about $.10 of electricity. By treating the hive in early spring before the supers are added and just after honey collection, we were able to eliminate about 85% of the Varroa even though there are many beekeepers in our county (hundreds of members in Jefferson County AL). Warm air of 106F does not seem to harm bees, but the Varroa cook in their shell and fall off of the bees! We laboriously counted mites on mite count boards, until we started to see them in our sleep! 

So, cooking oil and warm air is a treatment, but one the beetles and mites cannot evolve past, and one that does not harm the golden honey!


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## briancady413 (Dec 8, 2003)

greenbeehives_5643 said:


> ...a 6x6 mesh screen. ...


GreenBeeHives: Is this 6 millimeter by 6 millimeter holes, or 6 wires per inch by etc. ?

Brian
-


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## greenbeehives_5643 (Dec 12, 2021)

briancady413 said:


> GreenBeeHives: Is this 6 millimeter by 6 millimeter holes, or 6 wires per inch by etc. ?
> 
> Brian
> -


To be precise, the screen is .035 6x6 mesh per inch. The .035 is also relevant since the diameter and number of wires together determine the opening size. That is the hole the SHB fit through, but the bees cannot.


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## dianeforristall (Oct 20, 2021)

Nature's Gold Apiaries said:


> Hi, I'm pretty new to this forum-thing so hopefully I'm getting this in the right place.
> 
> I've been having this thought crystalizing in my mind over the last 2 years after having totally dumped the miticides and trying to manage my hives in a more 'natural' form.
> In regards to honeybee survival and colony losses: are we asking the wrong questions?
> ...





Nature's Gold Apiaries said:


> Hi, I'm pretty new to this forum-thing so hopefully I'm getting this in the right place.
> 
> I've been having this thought crystalizing in my mind over the last 2 years after having totally dumped the miticides and trying to manage my hives in a more 'natural' form.
> In regards to honeybee survival and colony losses: are we asking the wrong questions?
> ...


I imagine if you go this route, you'll have to do the other things Tom Seeley mentioned too about mimicking a natural environment. Like distancing each hive, not grouping them close together.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Nature's Gold Apiaries said:


> Hi, I'm pretty new to this forum-thing so hopefully I'm getting this in the right place.
> 
> I've been having this thought crystalizing in my mind over the last 2 years after having totally dumped the miticides and trying to manage my hives in a more 'natural' form.
> In regards to honeybee survival and colony losses: are we asking the wrong questions?
> ...


Well, before the mite, winter losses were about 1 to 2 % (In Wisconsin, lower in southern areas)
Then a completely unnatural parasite from another species began attacking AM, and as a result winter losses without treatment rose to about 100%, and with treatment settled at about 30%.

This is for managed colonies. If you don't manage your bees for honey production, you will do much better. Keep them in a single deep box, let them swarm whenever they want, and they will survive pretty well, even with the mite. However, it isn't apparent why people would want to keep a nonnative species such as AM, just to have them around. They push out native pollinators. I guess it is like some people keep dogs just so they can pick up their crap.

However, bees aren't that different from other livestock. In fact, they are a lot like chickens. I know a guy who decided to raise chickens. He didn't understand that his pets were just tasty snacks for the local racoons. Racoons aren't really native where he lives, and neither are coyotes. But they have made themselves at home. He wanted his chickens to be "free range", and just run around the yard like on The Waltons or something like that. Shutting the hens in a coop at night isn't natural, and electric fences, oyster shell supplement, feeding grain, and getting a dog to keep the predators at bay aren't natural either. Where he lives, that is how you raise chickens.
Now a hen can easily lay 200 eggs a year, so if predators can be kept under control at all, the hens can easily reproduce their way out of the predation problem. but that means you need a rooster (I always like to hear a rooster crow at 4 am, but it bothers some people).
So raising chickens "naturally" isn't all that easy either. And you don't get to eat the eggs.

And don't get me started on sheep. Sheep are stupid. They practically kill themselves on a daily basis. And you don't want to know what happens if you don't shear them. Sheep bite.

So keeping bees isn't very different from other livestock. It is work, often smelly, that needs doing when you really want to be doing something else. And the animals you keep often show their gratitude for your efforts on their behalf by biting, kicking, stinging or otherwise disrespecting their owners.

But they are your bees, so do what you want. In my opinion, treating is ethically, morally, and socially neutral, though it probably on balance does slightly more to improve the mite resistance of AM than any of the TF and IPM strategies. It is a pain, and I would like to avoid it, but it is less of a pain than cleaning out dead-outs.
(To clarify, none of the methods currently practiced does enough to "help the bees" for it to make any discernable difference in my opinion.)

I know people want to be "natural".

But there is nothing natural, about cooking your food, living in a heated dwelling, driving a car, wearing underwear (not to mention using toilet paper), etc.

I can understand a reasonable concern about contamination of honey with miticides, but Oxalic acid occurs naturally in honey (and many other foods people think are "good" for them). Formic acid also occurs naturally in honey, but being quite volatile, it does not appear to accumulate even in honey which is on the hives during treatment. So contamination of the honey does not appear to be an issue with commonly used miticides.

I look forward to being treatment free like I look forward to global warming. It would be easier not to have to shovel snow. I suppose I could just stop shoveling. My dad never had his driveway plowed, and he lived in northern MN. There is a reason for that, but it is a tale for another time.

End of rant.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

There is a parallel between beekeepers and campers.

People who camp in tents consider people who camp in pop-ups to not really be campers.
People who camp in pop-ups consider people who have the 5th wheel trailer campers to not really be campers.
People who cook over an open fire consider those who use a Coleman stove to not really be campers.

When I camp, I go naked, and hunt down animals and kill them with a rock and eat them raw. I'm a real camper!
but my brother Kenny, who kills his food with his bare hands, considers rock users to not really be campers....

And so it is with treatment free. A lot of people trying to be virtuous and pure, or so it seems to me.
There is a strange sort of appeal to being more pure than the next guy. It is some sort of misdirected religious impulse. I have felt it tug on me from time to time, but have tried hard to resist its allure, and have (I think) largely succeeded. One reason to avoid this trap is that it leads to the worst sort of fakery and hypocrisy.

Treatment free is not morally or ethically superior. It is arguably not more natural. (any more than wearing linen undergarments while driving an SUV makes driving an SUV more "natural"- there is nothing natural about keeping bees in large boxes and discouraging them from swarming.)

treating is a pain, but not as big a pain as buying bees and cleaning out deadouts.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Oh Man.... This thread has become.....more contentious, self promoting, and ladened with "fakery and hypocrisy" than is necessary. 

Here's a couple thoughts to consider;

"Bee curious, not judgmental" - Ted Lasso

"Bees don't waste their time explaining to flies that honey is better than crap" - Unknown


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## Nature's Gold Apiaries (10 mo ago)

Thanks all for your thoughts. After collecting all dead-outs and punching all the numbers I'm looking at 35% loss for this winter. That's with no varroa controls except brood breaks and IPM. I guess I'm trying to decide now if the worst is yet to come or if all the variables are in place in my area for TF success. 
Someone mentioned following all of Tom S. protocols for producing a 'natural' environment for the bees. . . I try to consider all his points and utilize the ones that are actually tenable for a sideliner like me. For example, I find keeping a single deep broodnest to be just a great idea in that it minimizes time for hive inspection, puts more honey in the supers, and keeps any overzealous queens from 'reproducing themselves to death' by too large a broodnest. Granted, single-deep broodnest means more feeding in the fall since I have virtually no fall flow here in NE MD so maybe I can't claim TF status after all. . . but I figure if we are removing so much natural forage it doesn't really make sense just to let the bees die because they can't feed themselves. . . 
I know, someone will say that we have created the mite problem too but I would argue that resistance to mites is partially a genetic issue while collecting resources that don't exist is sorta hard to blame on genetics. 
Having said that, breeding for great over wintering w/o feeding is high on my list of objectives once I feel that my genetic base is able to hold its own against varroa.
It seems to me that if there are feral/managed populations that are doing great coping without treatment then there should be potential TF success. 
I would much rather spend a few hours each spring cleaning up dead-outs and focus on nuc production through the summer than spend the whole year worrying about the demise of colonies that only survive by being propped up with 6 apps of chemicals each year. Believe me, when a bk can focus on something other than killing mites it puts the whole art in a different light.
I do recognize, though, that there are probably a lot of factors in this area over which I have no control that are not found just anywhere. As far as I know, there are no commercial operations within 50 Miles of my base, I very rarely have a summer dearth which produces a near-perfect environment for queen rearing and nuc production all summer long, and I'm right on the line between really cold winters and non-winters without brood breaks.
Most of the genetics in my operation come from a colony somewhere (feral? managed? who knows?) that sends a swarm to one of my traps every year.

So if it's unethical to let 'livestock' die to promote genetic selection then why aren't we going out and cutting down all the bee trees and moving those genetics to our apiaries so that we can be sure they never die. 
Oh, and what about your cat that kills birds and mice to stay alive herself?
If we are going to breed bees that cannot survive their environment (think pollination genetics in commercial operations) then, yes, by all means treat to keep them alive.
Have we bred out survival simply to have colonies that cater to our dreams of enormous brood nests and huge honey crops? If so, then we'd better keep treating. . .


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Nature's Gold Apiaries said:


> That's with no varroa controls except brood breaks and IPM.


your going to have to be specific...
IMP can and sometimes does include all the way to snythnitics
the bigger the problem the bigger the intervention













Nature's Gold Apiaries said:


> g said that, breeding for great over wintering w/o feeding is high on my list of objectives





Nature's Gold Apiaries said:


> Granted, single-deep broodnest means more feeding in the fall since I have virtually no fall flow here in NE MD


you will be hard pressed to do singlebroods any were and not feed 




Nature's Gold Apiaries said:


> o if it's unethical to let 'livestock' die to promote genetic selection


letting your bees die doesn't permote genetic selection... its a lie spred by the TF gurus.. we as a nation have lost 40% or so every year for what more than a decade? and yet the bees arn't getting better (they are slightly, but the mites are gettting worce faster)




msl said:


> ie say we are breeding for "over winter survival" as a trait and your starting at 50% survival
> 
> So the worst ½ die and the best ½ live to be split the next spring and your stock gets better as your breeding from what lives right?
> 
> ...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A Novice said:


> And so it is with treatment free. A lot of people trying to be virtuous and pure, or so it seems to me.


Disagreed.
You see the TF approaches have practical and economical merits at the very core.
That is the fundamental basis for TF - why do something that requires investment of time and money IF it is not necessary?

The issue is that in most places in the US the TF makes no practical or economical sense.
Then people start substituting the true TF by "chemical free", "natural", "virtuous and pure", and similar ideas.
Fine. Whatever makes people happy.

But the fundamentals of the TF have always been - you don't do things that are not necessary because it costs your time and money and labor.
If one can get away with this approach, everyone will do this.

I always refer people to this blog - you don't do things just for whistles and bells and to keep yourself busy and pretty - you do what is the minimum requirement and that is that.
The guy says: "I don’t really have a problem with mites............ I don’t feel the need to treat for them."
He is AHB keeper in Honduras (the blog has not been updated for years now - I don't know what is the current status).








Musings Archive


30. Musings About Making a Top Bar Hive—the basics Tags: beekeeping, beekeeping Central America, beekeeping Honduras, beekeeping ...




musingsonbeekeeping.blogspot.com


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Greg, if the decision was for the major part, made on the basis of pure practicality, your generous description would be true; I have to think though from watching the comings and goings that the decision has much more often been based on the ideological bases that @ A Novice depicts. 

I am not suggesting that everyone pursuing TF is doing so.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> Greg, if the decision was for the major part, made on the basis of pure practicality, your generous description would be true; I have to think though from watching the comings and goings that the decision has much more often been based on the ideological bases that @ A Novice depicts.
> 
> I am not suggesting that everyone pursuing TF is doing so.


Sure.
I have a brand new guy (a total zero) recently approach me about him setting up a top-bar hive in his back yard.
Total ideology case - he does not even make out honey bees from any other bees visiting his back yard (they are all the same to him).

Well, his basic motivation is - to do what is right (in his mind) and be helping out.... blah, blah...

What am I to do? 
OK, fine, I will try to help him catching a swarm OR will sell him my bees if comes to it.
And I will teach him how to keep his bees alive, hopefully.

But frankly, this guy by default is assuming that he will just leave his bees alone, not bother them, and the bees will happily live ever after in that beatiful top bar hive he bought for *$200.* The point here is again - he will leave them alone (meaning - *the very minimal disturbance*, let alone treating them periodically).
Back to only doing what is absolutely necessary (ideally - do nothing).
That is the ultimate desire - except in my location this is not working.

PS: and now another guy - just dropped off his Lang hive at my house - yep - set him up with the bees - absolute zero, he just wants bees flying in his backyard (brand new property, planting fruit trees, yadda, yadda... 
OK, I will help - but I want to get paid for this.

This idea of minimal inputs is rather strong and keeps going around.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregB said:


> Sure.
> I have a brand new guy (a total zero) recently approach me about him setting up a top-bar hive in his back yard.
> Total ideology case - he does not even make out honey bees from any other bees visiting his back yard (they are all the same to him).
> 
> ...


there was a day you were a brand new guy.
I was 13, had bees by 16. every one starts somewhere.
don't be so lofty, there are little people, and we can at times help them.
if he is close put a drone mother in his hive, you get drones he get bees, honey, pollination, experience.

we cannot all be prefect like you.

GG
not mean just funnin you in case it is not clear.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> there was a day you were a brand new guy.
> I was 13, had bees by 16. every one starts somewhere.
> don't be so lofty, there are little people, and we can at times help them.
> if he is close put a drone mother in his hive, you get drones he get bees, honey, pollination, experience.
> ...


GG,
I am just demonstrating that the idea of *"minimal input"* into the beekeeping hobby is very strong.
That was the whole point of my rant - using these new beeks as examples.

These are real people who landed on me for this summer and they, apparently, read lots of TF and "natural" literature on the Internet.
Maybe Michael Bush website, what not.  
Lazy beekeeping idea is very attractive. I tried it myself.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The unknowing are not to be blamed but the ones who capitalize on their innocence are less than admirable. Real easy to rationalize by saying "well if I didnt take their money someone else will!" I suppose that if that was how I put money in the bank, I would find a way to feel OK about it too.


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## garlorco (Jun 25, 2019)

I just have two thoughts.
I love my bees and don't want to see them suffer if I can help it. We introduced varroa, it wasn't here before. They are already suffering for our mistake. I use oxalic exclusively and my losses are about 2-5%. It's easy to use.
Secondly, it's more about my neighbor raising bees. If I don't care for mine, I get his infected. Love thy neighbor, love thy bees.


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## OLD KENTUCKY (Feb 18, 2021)

Nature's Gold Apiaries said:


> Hi, I'm pretty new to this forum-thing so hopefully I'm getting this in the right place.
> 
> I've been having this thought crystalizing in my mind over the last 2 years after having totally dumped the miticides and trying to manage my hives in a more 'natural' form.
> In regards to honeybee survival and colony losses: are we asking the wrong questions?
> ...


The reason a lot of feral bees die the first year, is because they swarm to late. If a swarm is in August or later, in most parts of the country, the main nectar flow is over. Here in Kentucky, from September until April, there is very little nectar flow. Goldenrod is about all. I use to have bees working corn tassels, and sunflowers, but not much anymore. I think GMO has changed that.
Beeks will still split hives in August, but they feed them sugar syrup. The feral bees in the wild don't have someone to feed them. I know where a bee tree is, that has been there since I was a kid, and I'm 83. If I catch feral bees in one of my swarm traps, I put them in a different yard, and I DON'T treat them. I have good luck with them. Very seldom do I lose one. I have a feral swarm in my deer stand, and they have been there for 5 years, and produce a swarm for me every year. I never treat my feral yard, and only treat my other yard one time, every year just before Christmas, when there is basically no brood. I did not lose a hive this year, out of either yard. If your hives are strong, they can fight the Varroa Mites much better. I never take honey off after June, and then not all of it. Hope this helps you.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

OLD KENTUCKY said:


> If I catch feral bees in one of my swarm traps, I put them in a different yard, and I DON'T treat them. I have good luck with them.


@OLD KENTUCKY: Whereabouts in our fair Commonwealth are you located? We'll have to trade notes and maybe swap some genetics. I'm in the Western 3rd of the state near Paducah.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

OLD KENTUCKY said:


> ......and I DON'T treat them. I have good luck with them........... I never treat my feral yard, and only treat my other yard one time, every year just before Christmas, when there is basically no brood. I did not lose a hive this year, out of either yard. .....


@OLD KENTUCKY,
You are a perfect example of high TF probability and feasibility.
I was just talking of someone like you.
Chances are pretty good I would be doing the TF (or near TF) too - if located someplace in KY.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> @OLD KENTUCKY: Whereabouts in our fair Commonwealth are you located? We'll have to trade notes and maybe swap some genetics. I'm in the Western 3rd of the state near Paducah.


You guys totally should swap some genetics and the notes. 
This "Kentucky bee" thing is the real deal, not some fake.
Might as well start growing the US-based "Russian" bee equivalent.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

GregB said:


> Disagreed.
> You see the TF approaches have practical and economical merits at the very core.
> That is the fundamental basis for TF - why do something that requires investment of time and money IF it is not necessary?
> 
> ...


For you, this is true. For most people TF is a lifestyle choice, or so it seems to me. I would gladly be TF, and may try your method (2 treatments) to see how it goes. But if I see DWV or PMS, I gonna treat.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

drummerboy said:


> Oh Man.... This thread has become.....more contentious, self promoting, and ladened with "fakery and hypocrisy" than is necessary.
> 
> Here's a couple thoughts to consider;
> 
> ...


You're right. I am sorry. I get carried away sometimes.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Everyone gets carried away sometimes, but if we know where we're going and willing to compassionately share the results, getting carried away can be a good thing.


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## Nature's Gold Apiaries (10 mo ago)

msl said:


> our going to have to be specific...
> IMP can and sometimes does include all the way to snythnitics
> the bigger the problem the bigger the intervention


Yes, I realize, I sorta used the wrong term there. 
My basic MO is to try to mimic 'natural' brood nest size and manage colony dynamics through the year as they might in the wild. I know, management isn't natural but I'm not chasing down that bunny trail right now.
I would also put a good bit of stock in the fact that I'm pulling a frame of drone brood out of all my production hives every 21 days through the summer to stock my DHC's for my mating yard. I also use Doolittle's method of shook swarming right before the main nectar flow which removes all capped brood from the hive. Then through the summer I'm making nucs so I pull approx. 2 frames of brood from each production hive every 3-4 wks. That brood then goes into nucs that receive a queen cell so the mites lose their ideal reproduction cycle in the nucs as well.

Model: Over-expansion of the apiary in the summer to knock mite loads and to be able to afford to lose more through the winter.


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## Nature's Gold Apiaries (10 mo ago)

msl said:


> our going to have to be specific...
> IMP can and sometimes does include all the way to snythnitics
> the bigger the problem the bigger the intervention


Yes, I realize, I sorta used the wrong term there. 
My basic MO is to try to mimic 'natural' brood nest size and manage colony dynamics through the year as they might in the wild. I know, management isn't natural but I'm not chasing down that bunny trail right now.
I would also put a good bit of stock in the fact that I'm pulling a frame of drone brood out of all my production hives every 21 days through the summer to stock my DHC's for my mating yard. I also use Doolittle's method of shook swarming right before the main nectar flow which removes all capped brood from the hive. Then through the summer I'm making nucs so I pull approx. 2 frames of brood from each production hive every 3-4 wks. That brood then goes into nucs that receive a queen cell so the mites lose their ideal reproduction cycle in the nucs as well.

Model: Over-expansion of the apiary in the summer to knock mite loads and to be able to afford to lose more through the winter.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Nature's Gold Apiaries said:


> *My basic MO is to try to mimic 'natural' brood nest size and manage colony dynamics through the year as they might in the wild.*





Nature's Gold Apiaries said:


> I'm pulling a frame of drone brood out of all my production hives every 21 days through the summer





Nature's Gold Apiaries said:


> I also use Doolittle's method of shook swarming right before the main nectar flow





Nature's Gold Apiaries said:


> Then through the summer I'm making nucs so I pull approx. 2 frames of brood from each production hive every 3-4 wks.





Nature's Gold Apiaries said:


> That brood then goes into nucs that receive a queen cell so the mites lose their ideal reproduction cycle in the nucs as well.


your kidding your self if this is mimicking the wild.
have never been able to pull brood from the bee trees I find every 21 days drone only or or 3-4 weeks, cycles of worker brood..
the doolittle shook swarm from the bee tree would also be intriguing to watch.

Accept that you are actively managing your bees and it is OK.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> your kidding your self if this is mimicking the wild.
> ..........
> Accept that you are actively managing your bees and it is OK.
> 
> GG



I was gonna say the same.
I tried to follow the logic and pretty much got lost between all those manipulations listed - too much.
It really should be much simpler than that if one to claim some kind of TF resemblance being practiced.


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## Nature's Gold Apiaries (10 mo ago)

You might wanna notice that I said that I realize management isn't natural. My point is that by creating brood breaks and pulling brood to minimize mite build up I've, so far, had great success at keeping healthy bees without treating for mites. It's not actually that complicated once you get the flow of it and if I need to do more management to keep bees healthy without chemicals then so be it. . .


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Gray Goose said:


> your kidding your self if this is mimicking the wild.
> have never been able to pull brood from the bee trees I find every 21 days drone only or or 3-4 weeks, cycles of worker brood..
> the doolittle shook swarm from the bee tree would also be intriguing to watch.
> 
> ...


I think, looking at all of that, that I can get comparable results with a few treatments, or if I try Greg B(V)'s method, only one plus a split. Which seems a lot easier, and doesn't require nearly as much bookkeeping.

But they are his bees, and if he enjoys keeping them that way, good for him.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> ... I wonder if this is at least partially due to socioeconomic dynamics (i.e. population density, land use conditions, etc.) rather than strictly environmental variables.


I thought of this thread as I read the following study evaluating feral colonies in Belgrade, courtesy of Terry Combs:

'The successful existence of a dense, self-sustaining feral honey bee population in Belgrade is further promoted by certain socio-economic circumstances. For example, problems with unregulated jurisdiction (responsibilities) of public services in Belgrade, combined with a shortage of specialised employees and funding, make public utility companies inefficient and inadequate to respond to citizens’ requests for removing honey bee colonies/swarms; accordingly, many of them remain untreated. Furthermore, the extended poor state of Serbia’s economy (for many decades now) reflects on poor maintenance of many buildings (which makes urban areas rich in suitable cavities). For similar reasons, the majority of people cannot afford to pay for removal to private services (by professional beekeepers), again contributing to many colonies/swarms being left undisturbed. All these circumstances made Belgrade almost the perfect environment for the establishment and persistence of a large free-living honey bee population.'









Unprecedented Density and Persistence of Feral Honey Bees in Urban Environments of a Large SE-European City (Belgrade, Serbia)


It is assumed that wild honey bees have become largely extinct across Europe since the 1980s, following the introduction of exotic ectoparasitic mite (Varroa) and the associated spillover of various pathogens. However, several recent studies reported on unmanaged colonies that survived the...




www.mdpi.com





The other interesting nugget:

'The analysis of 14 microsatellites loci showed that the feral honey bee colonies possess greater genetic diversity compared to the managed ones, and the assessed relatedness showed that on average, a feral honey bee colony is more related to other feral honey bee colonies than managed ones. These results suggest that swarming from managed apiaries is not the only reason for existence of such a great number of feral honey bee colonies in Belgrade. In other words, the abundant feral population may not be regarded as primarily or predominantly derived from the contemporary managed hives. Overall, molecular genetic analysis suggests the existence of a strong and genetically diverse population of feral honey bees in Belgrade.'


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> I thought of this thread as I read the following study evaluating feral colonies in Belgrade, courtesy of Terry Combs:
> 
> 'The successful existence of a dense, self-sustaining feral honey bee population in Belgrade is further promoted by certain socio-economic circumstances. For example, problems with unregulated jurisdiction (responsibilities) of public services in Belgrade, combined with a shortage of specialised employees and funding, make public utility companies inefficient and inadequate to respond to citizens’ requests for removing honey bee colonies/swarms; accordingly, many of them remain untreated. Furthermore, the extended poor state of Serbia’s economy (for many decades now) reflects on poor maintenance of many buildings (which makes urban areas rich in suitable cavities). For similar reasons, the majority of people cannot afford to pay for removal to private services (by professional beekeepers), again contributing to many colonies/swarms being left undisturbed. All these circumstances made Belgrade almost the perfect environment for the establishment and persistence of a large free-living honey bee population.'
> 
> ...


Yes, an interesting paper. I read that some time ago.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> I thought of this thread as I read the following study evaluating feral colonies in Belgrade, courtesy of Terry Combs:
> 
> 'The successful existence of a dense, self-sustaining feral honey bee population in Belgrade is further promoted by certain socio-economic circumstances. For example, problems with unregulated jurisdiction (responsibilities) of public services in Belgrade, combined with a shortage of specialised employees and funding, make public utility companies inefficient and inadequate to respond to citizens’ requests for removing honey bee colonies/swarms; accordingly, many of them remain untreated. Furthermore, the extended poor state of Serbia’s economy (for many decades now) reflects on poor maintenance of many buildings (which makes urban areas rich in suitable cavities). For similar reasons, the majority of people cannot afford to pay for removal to private services (by professional beekeepers), again contributing to many colonies/swarms being left undisturbed. All these circumstances made Belgrade almost the perfect environment for the establishment and persistence of a large free-living honey bee population.'
> 
> ...


So basically:

if the feral-to-be colonies are NOT removed but left alone
there is plenty of pseudo-natural habitat (older urban/suburban/industrial setting does that OK - with plenty of smaller cavities too which promote swarming)
climate is tolerable and not is the primary selective factor (USDA 6a to 8a for Serbia)
forage is available (common in urban/suburban/industrial setting now days).
Bee population should be able to fall back into the natural circle of life (rather intense and quick cycles) and outrun the mites (and even develop some form of resistance along the way).


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregB said:


> Bee population should be able to fall back into the natural circle of life (rather intense and quick cycles) and outrun the mites (and even develop some form of resistance along the way).


I think you summarized it well, Greg. The other interesting aspect of this paper was the evaluation (or maybe characterization) of the degree of local adaptation relative to managed populations:

_'This zone (feral center) represents the urban core of residential and business activities, characterized by dense urban infrastructure, high human population density, and economic activities, accompanied by appropriate traffic dynamics. In contrast, the periphery of Belgrade is characterized with more widespread presence of beekeepers and apiaries of various types. Many of the reported swarms or unmanaged colonies in that area are likely not truly feral, but recently derived from managed hives. Between the feral zone and the periphery, a type of ‘transitional area’ may be operatively defined. The transition is related to two principal patterns: type of settlements is gradually changing (from densely urbanized to nearly rural/agricultural), while the incidence of beekeeping is growing (but largely varying in management efficiency). Accordingly, we expect that as many as 50–75% of the reported swarms and colonies in this ‘transition zone’ might also be feral. Much lower values are expected across the peripheral areas, but also the incidence of unmanaged honey bee reporting was generally more sparse.'_

So it seems that at least in this study that human population density per-se does not comport with lower feral incidence rates, but rather the density of managed colonies. 

Thus (and not to take this too far), one might expect to see locally adapted feral populations developing at two ends of the human population dynamic: 

1. The rural, non horticulturally-focused landscapes.

2. The distinctly urban environments which don't have a significant rooftop beekeeping culture.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> I think you summarized it well, Greg. ..............
> 
> Thus (and not to take this too far), one might expect to see locally adapted feral populations developing at two ends of the human population dynamic:
> 1. The rural, non horticulturally-focused landscapes.
> 2. The distinctly urban environments which don't have a significant rooftop beekeeping culture.


Agreed.

In fact, in the US those urban/industrial areas *could be* very promising locations for feral bees also.
But as we know very well - people will not allow it.

At best, there will be several beekeepers in line to cut out a feral colony on the first call.
At worst, the bees will be promptly poisoned upon discovery.

In my area the better forage is, in fact, found in suburban/industrial areas (and natural preserves/parks too).
Out in the typical country side - it is nothing but corn/soy green desert (no food/no habitat).


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> Agreed.
> 
> In fact, in the US those urban/industrial areas *could be* very promising locations for feral bees also.
> But as we know very well - people will not allow it.
> ...


There are many hollow trees in suburban parks and forest preserves to home the bees....


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregB said:


> So basically:
> 
> if the feral-to-be colonies are NOT removed but left alone
> there is plenty of pseudo-natural habitat (older urban/suburban/industrial setting does that OK - with plenty of smaller cavities too which promote swarming)
> ...


Forgot a very important if not the most important factor.
Serbia is NOT involved in *cross-continental bee migration.*
The bee population there is very much local in that not much, if any, outside bee imports exist.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you look at the BIP surveys on winter losses for your area and you are getting the same or better survival, then I think it's working as well as treating is. If not, then you may have to rethink what you are doing to get survival up to where it should be. Typically my losses are the pretty much the same as the average for my area for that winter.


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## Wil-7 (Sep 4, 2021)

I was thinking about going TF but now I am scared.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Step into fear with all senses turned on. 

Fear can be a great teacher when faced head on.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Wil-7 said:


> I was thinking about going TF but now I am scared.


@Wil-7: I'm with Drummerboy on this one. Fear in one sense demonstrates self-awareness and a recognition of the dangers of an approach- a good thing.

That said, I am also reminded of Emerson who wisely observed, _Knowledge is an antidote to fear._

So on the other hand, as you learn about the potential challenges of going treatment free, you'll feel better prepared to face the challenges that come your way.

And there is always the 'Soft Bond' approach if you want to dip your toes in the water first...


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Wil-7 said:


> I was thinking about going TF but now I am scared.


Wil
So one does not need to put all the eggs in one basket.
keep the best 1/3 for breeders and recovery, treat them as you did normally. (I can generally do a 1 for 3 split and get all 3 to winter size in summer)
take the other 2/3 and do your TF test, realize you are putting your "23" crop on the line, as long as that does not take food off the table for your family, not really much of a risk.

try not let fear sway you from your path.
do be aware that fear is always there and helps define the path.

good luck

GG


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## Wil-7 (Sep 4, 2021)

Lol. I sure know facing fear. I was paratrooper and a skydiver with about 800 jumps but I am deathly afraid of heights. Only dove off a high diving board only once and that was the end of that. Maybe I am a prime candidate for treatment free beekeeping.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Wil-7 said:


> I was thinking about going TF but now I am scared.


If you thinking about it, you at least should understand and evaluate your *TF-feasibility.*
Have you done it?
The kinda/sorta feasibility evaluation?

Thinking ~ evaluation (there should be a connection at least).

Search across the TF sub-forum on the word "feasibility" and read up, if need more elaboration.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Michael Bush said:


> If you look at the BIP surveys on winter losses for your area and you are getting the same or better survival, then I think it's working as well as treating is. If not, then you may have to rethink what you are doing to get survival up to where it should be. Typically my losses are the pretty much the same as the average for my area for that winter.


That is an OK starting point and a reality check.

However, a guy with 5 hives, that spends a lot of time on them and knows what he is doing somewhat and treats regularly, should have very low winter losses - pretty much zero. I am not by any means a good beekeeper, but I can keep 4 or 5 colonies alive pretty easily. All they need is enough food, a healthy queen, and not many mites.

Unless you are dealing with bad problems with brood diseases, beetles, moths, or bears it is that simple. (Not always easy, but simple)

The same guy with 200 hives will probably see 20% to 30% losses because he can't spend much time on each hive.

I don't see any way treatment free can be less work than treating, unless you don't monitor mite counts and respond as necessary. 

The possible exception would be someone who keeps doing splits and trapping swarms. If I split all my hives in spring and run 8 frame so they swarm, and trap the swarms, I can see how enough would survive so I would have a stable number of hives. If there is enough forage that those hives would make surplus, I can see that working ok and being fairly easy. 

At the same time, I can see that some people really want to be treatment free for some reason and are willing to go to great effort to be treatment free. Some people do crossword puzzles. Neither of those activities interest me, but they aren't bad things to do.

I am a bad beekeeper. I am not a virtuous beekeeper. Over the last 3 years, my winter loss rate has been zero. I have had about 5 colonies, and have given away swarms and splits to stay at about 5 colonies.
Local commercial and sideliner beekeepers in Wisconsin see 30% winter losses (roughly). If I went treatment free and was having 30% losses, I would go back to treating.

I did lose one hive that went queenless in the late summer two years ago, and I currently have one colony that is recovering from a laying worker situation which has about 1 pound of bees right now that I will try to get through this coming winter. If keeping zero winter losses was a manhood issue for me I would combine the piddly hive with one of its neighbors, as its chances aren't good. However, I like the challenge and really hate squashing queens. Trying to keep it alive is my version of doing crossword puzzles. There is nothing new under the sun.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Wil-7 said:


> Lol. I sure know facing fear. I was paratrooper and a skydiver with about 800 jumps but I am deathly afraid of heights. Only dove off a high diving board only once and that was the end of that. Maybe I am a prime candidate for treatment free beekeeping.


Once a paratrooper, always a paratrooper I always say! Hoo-Rah! No one has ever asked me to return my wings. 

I was a steeple-jack, house painter, high rise window cleaner, jumped from planes and flew around in choppers, in and out of combat. That all seems like a lifetime ago...Oh wait, it was a lifetime ago.

Now I'm limited to a 2 step ladder, 3 if the wife ain't watching.

My only recommendation for anyone attempting TF is to 'bee sure' there are no other beekeepers in your area...unless...they are also TF.


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## Wil-7 (Sep 4, 2021)

drummerboy said:


> Once a paratrooper, always a paratrooper I always say! Hoo-Rah! No one has ever asked me to return my wings.
> 
> I was a steeple-jack, house painter, high rise window cleaner, jumped from planes and flew around in choppers, in and out of combat. That all seems like a lifetime ago...Oh wait, it was a lifetime ago.
> 
> ...


Humm, then I might have a problem. I am surrounded by beekeepers within about a 1/2 to 4 miles radius that treat but there are some that are also lazy in their treatments so you never know what is going to visit my yard. I know of one beekeeper about a mile away that treats his hives one day every month with OAV. I'm not quite sure how just one day a month is working for him but he thinks it does the trick. Me? I'm not so sure that is the correct way to treat but then, this is my second year and so far I have only ever treated with Formic Pro so far this year. So with so many beekeeps around me, I might be fighting a losing battle if I try to go treatment free.
Yes, heliborne assaults were a lifetime ago for me as well but seems like only yesterday. Welcome home!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

drummerboy said:


> My only recommendation for anyone attempting TF is to 'bee sure' there are no other beekeepers in your area...unless...they are also TF.


Better yet that there be *no other beekeepers* within 2 flying distances of you. I can attest that they can make it difficult even for a treating beekeeper!


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Fear can be a useful thing. Being fearful is like being cheap. It isn't a virtue, but it will keep you from a lot of vices.


When looking at treating/not treating, it is helpful to make a list of positives and negatives associated with each alternative, rank them, score them, and reflect on the result.

This is called a "Trotter Matrix". It helps clarify the decision. It is named after LLoyd Trotter, a former GE executivr, who invented it.

since there are several versions of treatment free and treatment, this is actually complicated. There are several formats for this, but the simplest and most helpful usually is a simple spreadsheet or table.

For example, the treatment options include:
Treat with all available chemicals OA, Apivar, Formic Pro, etc.
Treat only with OAV and formic pro in rotation.
Other treatment regimen you are considering (list as many as you are considering)
Treatment free options include:
BOND
DO splits, trap swarms
Splits + VSH stock
Thermal treatments, condensing hives, etc
I'm sure there are more...

List these all in column 1 in any order.

across the top of columns 2-n, list your goals - the various things you want from keeping bees. Give each column a weighting from 1 to 5. 1 means not important, 5 means very important/critical, and 2-4 are levels between that.
So column 2 may be honey production, column 3 may be wintering success (bragging rights), column 3 may be ethical value of being pure (no treatments), column 4 may be hours spent per colony, column 5 may be cost per colony, column 6 may be cost of purchased bees, Column 7 may be Status, etc. You choose the column headers based on your priorities. 

Be honest. Most small-scale beekeepers keep bees for non-financial reasons, and identifying those reasons is important. There are no wrong answers. If you want to be treatment free because you consider it more virtuous, that is your business. 

below each column header, score each treatment option from the column on the left on a scale of 0 to 2, with 0 being that treatment option doesn't support that goal, 2 being it is preferred for that goal, 1 being somewhere in the middle.

Fill in the matrix for all of the goals, then multiply the column weighting by the values in the cells, and sum these values in a left-most column entitled total score.

The primary value of this exercise is that it will require you to explicitly identify your goals for treating/not treating, and secondarily, that it will lead to a logical solution to the question.

For me, the goals are: (Listed vertically, not horizontally just to make it more confusing)
30 lbs of honey per hive (weighting 4)
minimum effort (weighting 3)
minimum record keeping/decision making (weighting 5)
Minimum buying of bees (manhood issue) (weighting 2)
Minimum winter losses (manhood issue) (weighting 2)
Avoiding synthetic chemicals or chemicals not normally found in honey. (weighting 4)
Minimum cost of treatment (weighting 4)

So it is easy to see that treating regularly with OAV on a regular schedule, and only in emergencies with Formic Pro, and not testing mite levelswill work well for me. Treatment free offers me nothing.

However, every beekeeper will have a different list of priorities with different weightings. There are no right answers for everyone, but there is a best answer for each individual.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Wil-7 said:


> I am surrounded by beekeepers within about a 1/2 to 4 miles radius that treat but there are some that are also lazy in their treatments so you never know what is going to visit my yard.


This observation immediately downgrades your TF-feasibility.
The TF-feasibility is low at best, IMO.
My prediction is not optimistic.

As suggested above - first thing, scout out the best possible remote and well provisioned location - which may not be possible anyway.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregB said:


> The TF-feasibility is low at best, IMO.


While we've been down this road before, I agree with @A Novice that it ultimately comes down to your goals and priorities:



Litsinger said:


> We've discussed the high-density, bee-wasteland dynamic before and I freely admit it would be difficult in my mind to have a sustained and successful TF experience in this environment. That said, one could go to a closed population model employing routine re-queening and the prophylactic use of anti-drift measures and might be able to get away with something akin to TF...





Litsinger said:


> While I cast no aspersions towards anyone who chooses to utilize treatments, for some of us the goal of pursuing TF is an aspiration unto itself, so there is a segment that would like to pursue TF in areas where location and/or genetics are not favorable- and in such locations, education and skill become necessary attributes to successfully engage, and hopefully overcome, the challenges presented.


So while it might be difficult, it certainly would not be impossible in my mind if one was interested in investing the time, energy and education to make it happen.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> While we've been down this road before, I agree with @A Novice that it ultimately comes down to your goals and priorities:
> ..............
> So while it might be difficult, it certainly would not be impossible in my mind if one was interested in investing the time, energy and education to make it happen.


At some point the vague notion of one's goals and priorities must crystallize to something very specific and measurable.

For example - go and try to be 100% chem-free in a mite-infested location.
That simple.
Not easy but simple.
Try this for 3-5 years.
Report back, please.
PLEASE - report back.


(the report back part is hard one - especially with the documented results).


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

GregB said:


> This observation immediately downgrades your TF-feasibility.
> The TF-feasibility is low at best, IMO.
> My prediction is not optimistic.
> 
> As suggested above - first thing, scout out the best possible remote and well provisioned location - which may not be possible anyway.


In this situation, it would be necessary to monitor mite levels regularly and be prepared to change strategies.
Or be willing to lose your bees. It happens.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

GregB said:


> At some point the vague notion of one's goals and priorities must crystallize to something very specific and measurable.
> 
> For example - go and try to be 100% chem-free in a mite-infested location.
> That simple.
> ...


This is why we love you Greg. You have the balls to actually document your failures.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregB said:


> At some point the vague notion of one's goals and priorities must crystallize to something very specific and measurable.


No argument from me. Just gently pushing back on the notion that TF is impossible in some locales.

One could annually re-queen with proven VSH genetics, judiciously employ robbing screens and have a reasonable chance of staying chem free (as an example).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Litsinger said:


> No argument from me. Just gently pushing back on the notion that TF is impossible in some locales.
> 
> One could annually re-queen with proven VSH genetics, judiciously employ robbing screens and have a reasonable chance of staying chem free (as an example).


Which, basically, means - very *labor and resource intensive operation*, to be honest. 
For example - a proven VSH queen from my friend costs $50.
That is a fair cost.
With my 30+ units on hand right now - this is immediately ~$1000+ expense - IF to re-queen them all. 
Ouch.
Not spending.


The entire, fundamental premise of the TF - *minimal inputs* (including labor inputs). IF you spend all of your awaken hours doing the bee work - just so that you can call it "TF" - time to re-visit the entire point of the TF.

Fundamentally, we bother with the TF - so that we can keep the bees like during the good, old times. 
This is it.

If you can not practice the true TF management (i.e. - the minimal input management) - the next reasonable step is to increase the inputs, but *no more than needed.*

So far with me - some of my colonies I have not opened for 2-3 months already (the brood nest).
That's pretty minimal input, IMO.
But I am no longer TF - come November, every single colony will be wide-
opened and be subjected to organic acid dribble. 
Just once.

This should be sufficient for the sufficiently resistant bees.
But even the most resistant bee in my location are prone to fail - without additional inputs.

OR - be ready to incur very high costs and inputs up front - hundreds of hives/queens/hours of work - to create an arbitrary, artificial TF zone. 
With having proper expertise you may succeed.

But if 5-10 hives is your max - mite-infested location will overrun you.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

GregB said:


> The entire, fundamental premise of the TF - *minimal inputs* (including labor inputs). IF you spend all of your awaken hours doing the bee work - just so that you can call it "TF" - time to re-visit the entire point of the TF.


Greg:

Fair enough- that is certainly the mindset of many who enter beekeeping with strictly a philosophical bent toward 'simple' beekeeping.

But we all know better- and are trying to offer the better path based on both our own experiences and the emerging science regarding resistance.

So, we all can fall on a continuum of management approaches - and if one wishes to be chemical-free in a suburban environment there are options if one is so inclined. It is not all or nothing.

In fairness, other than the expense of buying VSH queens (go virgins to keep it on the cheap) and a few robbing screens one could be reasonably confident they might meet with some success and not have to resort to draconian measures to keep a handful of colonies chemical-free.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

A Novice said:


> Local commercial and sideliner beekeepers in Wisconsin see 30% winter losses (roughly). If I went treatment free and was having 30% losses, I would go back to treating.


30% is not that much, if that is your yard stick, better not try TF
In TF I had several years of 50%

so why not have 30% more than you need then winter "right sizes" you.

GG


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Wil-7 said:


> I know of one beekeeper about a mile away that treats his hives one day every month with OAV.


Timed to brood breaks, that would be overkill. You already understand how useless it really is... 


GregB said:


> Which, basically, means - very *labor and resource intensive operation*, to be honest.
> For example - a proven VSH queen from my friend costs $50.
> That is a fair cost.
> With my 30+ units on hand right now - this is immediately ~$1000+ expense - IF to re-queen them all.
> ...


At those numbers and your skill level an II (Instrument Inseminated) breeder queen would make more sense. I'm at the 'hide $300 bucks for when it will make sense for me' stage.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> Timed to brood breaks, that would be overkill. You already understand how useless it really is...
> 
> At those numbers and your skill level an II (Instrument Inseminated) breeder queen would make more sense. I'm at the 'hide $300 bucks for when it will make sense for me' stage.


there is one more way

find a way to evaluate, IE some sort of counting plan.
catch your AI queen when it swarms and the daughters are way cheaper.

GG


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Gray Goose said:


> there is one more way
> 
> find a way to evaluate, IE some sort of counting plan.
> catch your AI queen when it swarms and the daughters are way cheaper.


Not quite understanding you here?


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Litsinger said:


> No argument from me. Just gently pushing back on the notion that TF is impossible in some locales.
> 
> One could annually re-queen with proven VSH genetics, judiciously employ robbing screens and have a reasonable chance of staying chem free (as an example).


but why?


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

A Novice said:


> but why?


Because one wants to?


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Litsinger said:


> Because one wants to?


I understand. It all comes down to what you value.

Personally, the idea of killing perfectly good queens that have come through the winter, which are probably interbred with local bees and adapted to the local climate somewhat, in order to replace them with inbred queens that are semi-domesticated is practically immoral - as a waste of money, as harming the local bee population, and as dealing in bad faith with the queens I have. I don't like killing queens. I'm a bit odd that way.

One of my goals is not to buy bees. As I continue to keep the same bees, with successive supersedures they become more adapted to local conditions. It also makes beekeeping a very low-cost enterprise. I have the equipment I need, I have bees (more than I need), and I can make wooden ware pretty easily. 

It seems to me if you are treatment free but have to keep buying bees or queens, you aren't really treatment free anyway. You are fooling yourself.

I would rather use OAV.

It employs chemicals commonly found in honey, (about 25 mg/kg typical in floral honeys, up to 300 mg/kg in honeydew honeys if I remember correctly) 
The typical dose is about as much OA as is found in a can of spinach. 
It isn't difficult or expensive or time consuming to use. 

Eventually my bees will be treatment free capable, without the loss of genetic diversity or the risk of domestication which comes from the VSH queen lines.

With that I get essentially zero risk of colony loss (possible with fewer than 10 hives, losses would be higher for a larger apiary)

But I can't say I am treatment free. That would be true.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

A Novice said:


> One of my goals is not to buy bees. As I continue to keep the same bees, with successive supersedures they become more adapted to local conditions. It also makes beekeeping a very low-cost enterprise.


Thanks for the feedback, Jon. FWIW your goals and my goals are pretty closely aligned and I don't disparage your decision to treat.

The crux of my post was simply to suggest that if being TF is a primary goal for someone and locally-suitable bees are not to be had, there might be other options.

Otherwise, I agree with you 100%- locally-adapted bees are the way to go if they meet your needs and goals.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

William Bagwell said:


> Not quite understanding you here?


2 option were offered
buy VSH queens
Buy an AI VSH mother

I offered catch one....
to know you need mite counts of some fashion, I have caught marked queen several times , numbered ones only a few times.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

A Novice said:


> It seems to me *if you are treatment free but have to keep buying bees or queens, you aren't really treatment free anyway. *You are fooling yourself.


Like.

In a location with good TF-feasibility you don't need to keep buying bees/queens.
Once is enough IF even that.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Locally acquired or approximately identical but bred / raised hundreds of miles away; what is the differnce? I dont buy into all the implied advantage of local. Especially so for someone who is hundreds of miles from anywhere feral bees exist; they dont have local bees to develop. Any bees in trees around here would be my own or from someone who brings in nucs with imported queens. 

My bees (prior to getting some Buckfast queens last year) were bred by Tibor Szabo Jr. Tibo Sr. was with University of Guelph and Beaverlodge in Alberta programs of developing resistant bees back in the 80s and 90s. Recipient of Order of Canada award for contributions. Some of the older members here are familiar with him.

I would wager that a lot of what is attributed to "locally adapted" amounts to allowing or causing the Italian bee habits to eliminate themselves from the population. That is sometimes hard to do and to maintain if they are numerous in the background population. S'why pollinator bees are not TF candidates. Most people do not have the discipline or the conditions to move the needle in their locations. I can achieve the same with a phone call and my credit card and less intrigue and story telling. 

There are breeders who have developed good products but it is pretty much a dream for most people to duplicate let alone stabilize in the face of the present economic model. Cuba would be a good example of what would be necessary.

Try to make that fly here!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> Cuba would be a good example of what would be necessary.





crofter said:


> ... developing resistant bees back in the 80s and 90s.


Tying these two thread ideas together-



Litsinger said:


> After 4 years of closed population breeding, the geographical groups were significantly different in 8 of the morphological characteristics. The southern bees were darker, their probosces and forewings longer (Tables 1, 2 and 5). Some of the families differed significantly from others in 15 of the characteristics. Only forewing length, tibia length, the distance between wax mirrors and tergite colour were similar in their mean values (Table 5); note, however, the significant interaction for the second and third of these. As expected, the colony traits were even more different between the two geographical groups, 14 characteristics were significantly different. Most of these differences can be attributed to environmental differences (Tables 3, 4 and 5). Only in two colony characteristics of temper and queen weight were there significant family differences.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> Locally acquired or approximately identical but bred / raised hundreds of miles away; what is the differnce? I dont buy into all the implied advantage of local. Especially so for someone who is hundreds of miles from anywhere feral bees exist; they dont have local bees to develop. Any bees in trees around here would be my own or from someone who brings in nucs with imported queens.
> 
> My bees (prior to getting some Buckfast queens last year) were bred by Tibor Szabo Jr. Tibo Sr. was with University of Guelph and Beaverlodge in Alberta programs of developing resistant bees back in the 80s and 90s. Recipient of Order of Canada award for contributions. Some of the older members here are familiar with him.
> 
> ...


Crofter,
there is a lot of "energy" around local.
unfortunately not much understanding.

Local is a thing, in several generations the bees become or drift toward local.
Testing has been done on 2 and 3 year old queens, they increase brood in time for local flows. so 21 days to hatch and 10-15 more to be a feild bee, how does the queen know to lay extra eggs 40 days before the sweet clover bloom?
queens brought in often gin up on their old flows from where they came from. cue is there for the other place.
there must be something in hive/comb/pollen/old honey/memory for ques or clues.
bees take ques from last years harvest to better do next year..

so all " local" is time a year or 4 for the bees to understand the local schema then they by predicting, can do better.

any bees moved a distance are no longer local, in time they can be if they survive.

this acclimation, is what we need to better understand. how is it done, how can it be harnessed.

your bees there did the same thing, I would think next year they do better, then the following better yet.
some die as they do too much worse.
some line up fast and are good split candidates.

Imo you could take 10 new hives to several places and different ones would "out perform" based on the patra line mix and other factors.

so much more to local than we know at this time.

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If the foregoing is true, then every locale would develop its own peculiar bee that would be compromised if moved to another area! I can see behavior developing with general benefits in an area noted for weather such as the British Isles and having different traits develop than would be prominent in say New Mexico. I feel that these traits could be selected from within existing bee types even if the bees had been bred and raised in another country. What would do well in Britain would likely also do well in Newfoundland!
A Labrador retriever would do well fetching ducks in Britain but of coarse not so true if you tossed a Greyhound in the drink anywhere in the world.

I think the local adaptation factor is way oversold.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

crofter said:


> What would do well in Britain would likely also do well in Newfoundland!


I'd go along with that, but the results might not be as predictable as one might hope. As Dr. Szabo discovered, 400+ miles North to South in Alberta made a big difference.



crofter said:


> I think the local adaptation factor is way oversold.


Also possible, but the research seems to suggest otherwise:









GEI Experiment







coloss.org


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Litsinger said:


> I'd go along with that, but the results might not be as predictable as one might hope. As Dr. Szabo discovered, 400+ miles North to South in Alberta made a big difference.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for the link


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> If the foregoing is true, then every locale would develop its own peculiar bee that would be compromised if moved to another area! I can see behavior developing with general benefits in an area noted for weather such as the British Isles and having different traits develop than would be prominent in say New Mexico. I feel that these traits could be selected from within existing bee types even if the bees had been bred and raised in another country. What would do well in Britain would likely also do well in Newfoundland!
> A Labrador retriever would do well fetching ducks in Britain but of coarse not so true if you tossed a Greyhound in the drink anywhere in the world.
> 
> I think the local adaptation factor is way oversold.


well Frank
move your bees to Texas for a few years then back, we then will have some data points.




we will have to agree to disagree.
Inbound in my yard struggles the first year or 2 then seems to take off if they live that long.
did your new bees not have chalk brood this first summer?
O well maybe some places are easy to adapt to.

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Gray Goose said:


> well Frank
> move your bees to Texas for a few years then back, we then will have some data points.
> 
> 
> ...


Cant do the Texas thing. Visa expired. Nah I would not take a chance on any hitchikers or bad habits they might pick up!

Not everything you might bring in will land on its feet and running! your local conditions and management will indeed give thumbs down on behavior that is not so well suited. A few years will eliminate many of them and your local bees habits will be the most represented. I dont think they could be said to have truly adapted. The most represented genetic spectrum will shift but I would not call that adaptation. Were it not for the presence of your local bees you would likely just have no bees.

Negative on the chalk brood. Had sacbrood virus. Neighbor a few miles away lost all his bees 2 years running so lots of outside bees brought in. Hmmm. One of the suppliers had vid. on this spring of a whole yard deadout! Anyways my situation cleared up nicely and they went into winter with lovely patterns. Missed out on a lot of honey potential first half of summer.


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## nailbender0259 (10 mo ago)

I have been reading a lot of the Treatment Free post on beesource from the time I joined till now, and have seen some do well and others really struggle, just to change plans and start treatments. I do believe that location has a lot to do with whether one can go cold turkey or just give up and go back to the treatments.
I live in an area that is very rural with very little beekeeping around me until the last few years. I have two hives that had not been treated (1-30 years, another over 20 years), but the last few years I have noticed my bees seem to be changing ( color and temperament ) ,so I fear that they will not make it much longer. Before they were dark in color and a bit mean at times, but now are very yellow and less aggressive, and for the first time I have seen crawlers in front of the hive. I hope for the best, but fear the worst.
I don't want to sound like TF is the only way, because I do have hives that require help to survive and make a crop of honey. I believe that if the bees are to make it on there own that we will need to allow the bees to find a way through DNA, and behavioral selection from beekeepers like you keepers of the bees around the country.
The big commercial bee companies are mostly interested in honey production and bee sales (not all), and find it easier to just treat for mites, and make the money.

God bless you keepers

Ray


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

nailbender0259 said:


> I don't want to sound like TF is the only way, because I do have hives that require help to survive and make a crop of honey. I believe that if the bees are to make it on there own that we will need to allow the bees to find a way through DNA, and behavioral selection from beekeepers like you keepers of the bees around the country.


@nailbender0259:

Enjoyed your post, and I think we can all identify with where you're at. No matter where we are on the treatment continuum, we're all looking to improve our stocks and also looking over our shoulder for the next pest or disease shoe to drop.

I think it is also safe to say that some degree of isolation greatly aids in a bee population's ability to develop some modicum of resistance- without it we are always dealing with the potential for outbreeding depression.

Best of success to you in closing out this season, and I'll look forward to reading more about your efforts.

Russ


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

nailbender0259 said:


> I have been reading a lot of the Treatment Free post on beesource from the time I joined till now, and have seen some do well and others really struggle, just to change plans and start treatments. I do believe that location has a lot to do with whether one can go cold turkey or just give up and go back to the treatments.
> I live in an area that is very rural with very little beekeeping around me until the last few years. I have two hives that had not been treated (1-30 years, another over 20 years), but the last few years I have noticed my bees seem to be changing ( color and temperament ) ,so I fear that they will not make it much longer. Before they were dark in color and a bit mean at times, but now are very yellow and less aggressive, and for the first time I have seen crawlers in front of the hive. I hope for the best, but fear the worst.
> I don't want to sound like TF is the only way, because I do have hives that require help to survive and make a crop of honey. I believe that if the bees are to make it on there own that we will need to allow the bees to find a way through DNA, and behavioral selection from beekeepers like you keepers of the bees around the country.
> The big commercial bee companies are mostly interested in honey production and bee sales (not all), and find it easier to just treat for mites, and make the money.
> ...


Ray
how often do you rotate out old comb?

GG


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

It would be very helpful if someone would breed mites that were resistant to DWV and others.

Since mites have maybe 13 brood cycles a year, and bees typically about 1 (only brood cycle that counts is when they raise a queen) It would be easier to do.

Other than that, it seems unlikely to me that bees with their long brood cycle will be able to mutate as fast as mites.

However, it also appears to me that in a closed population/local area, mites that don't carry bad viruses will be more successful than those that od, since the bad viruses weaken the bees while providing no advantage to the mites. Weak sick bees make bad hosts for parasitic mites. So I would expect in isolated areas the mites would tend over time to carry less injurious viruses.

In an area with a large number of introduced bees, the unlimited supply of bees probably reduces selection pressure on the mites.

Armchair science.


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## nailbender0259 (10 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> Ray
> *how often do you rotate out old comb?*


Well, That is something that I have done very little of. This hive was the result of a swarm that decided to take over a hive body that had been left out when I had given up on beekeeping, When I started keeping bees there were not so many problems or things to kill the bees (mites). So when the mites killed out all the hives I had, I decided to take a break for awhile. This swarm came about a year later, and I expected that it would not make it through the first winter. I didn't do anything to this hive for several years because I expected that it to would die out like all the other bees that I had, had done. By the mid 90s I decided to see if I could get a little crop of honey from them, and opened the hive. It was so glued together I couldn't do much in the brood nest, but I did replace a frame that had been missing (lucky it was an outside frame).

To answer your question: I have only changed out maybe 6 frames in a double deep setup. The other beehaver hive has not had any frames changed out, or any supers added for 20 years. It was also a caught swarm that a friend of mine call me about, and said he would like me to leave it there for pollination of his garden, but wouldn't bother it. I may take a look inside the hive next spring to see what kind of a mess is there.

These hives are left to swarm as nature allows.

Ray


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