# We've been saved.....



## okb (Apr 16, 2007)

I ordered 50! BTW what is it?

That mean threes a market for a SHB trap I invented too?



okb said:


> After retriving a queen cage from one of my hives this is what I found that happened to the nylon string that held the cage. It appears that it was frayed by the bees chewing on it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Shoot yea, why not.


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## okb (Apr 16, 2007)

Guess I could wad it up and put it in a nice black case might make it sell a little faster. lol


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

He says "I developed this system out of poverty, couldn't afford the expensive mite strips" yet his system is being sold for "US $28.00" for a set of six.

If I did my math right, that's $4.60 or what looks like 9.20 per hive if you use 2 of them. And essential oils will cost money each year....

Now, MiteAway II (TM) in Dadant's catalog is $3.60 each, and you need one of these each year unless you treat twice....and one other treatment that I know of is considerably less expensive then Miteaway II...

I am thinking I could go into poverty using his wonderful system... unless I am missing something...


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

He never says what the "stuff" is. It's probably Mavrik.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

Not only does it kill'em, it gathers them all right on the strip for you to see!


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

We've been saved...

And here I thought the CCD team was coming.


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## roger lee (Jun 8, 2007)

If you look at his ebay feedback it all looks good but I don't see one mention of the mite stuff there is a lot about doll heads and eyes! I guess if our bees need a doll to sleep with at night we are in luck.


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## okb (Apr 16, 2007)

Great! Thats all we need is another disgruntaled "Build-A-Bear Work Shop" empolyee telling us how to rescue our pets.


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## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

*two questions-*

Anyone skeptical ?
Anyone try it?
?j


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

jim b said:


> Anyone skeptical ?


almost everyone


> Anyone try it?


almost no-one.

Keith


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

It says it's an essential oil formula. But with one oz. of essential oils costing $5.50+ I can't see him sending much more that four oz. Or... the *special* *secret* _formula_ (ooooh. doesn't that sound grand!) just has a little oil in it. If he really wanted to promote this grand idea of his, I think he should try it through a beekeeping company. And if that doesn't work he should post directions and a recipe on Bee-Source and get some people out here to try it themselves and give him feedback on it.

I'll stick with Api-Life Var, *IF* I ever have a big Vorroa problem.

-Nathanael


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

He didn't care for my email at all...


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

Ross said:


> He didn't care for my email at all...



Details, we want details!!


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

hey guys....

I have a bottle of vanilla..... I mean I have a bottle of dark stuff... a secret formula, that will kill all the mites. I do mean all of them!



Only $24.95.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

first response to question "Do you really think any beekeeper in his right mind would put an unknown chemical in his beehive? "



> I guess you can't read. My listing sais ALL NATURAL,,,NO Chemicals!!! NO CHEMICALS.
> No Pesticides, no toxins.


second response to question "And what would you suggest we tell the inspector when he ask what it is? No one is buying it without knowing the ingredients."


> You are wrong, I have many who are buying it, and positive feed back is there and coming. I I guarantee it will work, and not harm any bees. I have never had an inspector dig in my bee hives and ask what anything was. So I am not going to argue with you about them. UNLESS you are a migrant bee keeper, OR a very large bee keeping corporation, I can't really see why you would have inspectors. HOWEVER I only have 2 hives, so I am not going to argue with you about that.
> You seem intelligent. You tell me how I am going to make any money on an invention, AFTER I tell everyone what is in it. IT wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to put it together. How long before someone else would be on E bay selling their version of it?? Seen lots of that happen to many on here. While my basic instinct would be to just bare it all and let everyone know what is in there, to help save the bees, which is so simple and effective, I would not be selling it for very long. And as altruistic as I would LIKE to be right now. I can't afford to be.
> I just happened to be already using this technique when the Bee Die off occured, and I decided to NOT charge very much. 5 goes to E bay. 5. for the container, and another 5 for the rest of the ingredients, and 7 or more for shipping. So I am not trying to take advantage of anyone. I would however like to be able to get a little income as does everyone else doing everything else. I am sure you want to make a profit from selling honey, wax, Bees, pollin, propolis, and who knows what else from the bees.
> I am not trying to force you to purchase this, but you seem kind of angry about it.
> I would like to help you NOT be angry about it, but I would also like to be able to sell my product without dumping it in the trash and giving it away too. Work with me here and let me know what you have for an idea. I will listen.


last response to "It's real simple, I'm not putting anything in my bees when I don't know what it is. I haven't treated my bees with anything in 4 years and haven't lost a hive. Small cell and screened bottom boards work well to keep mites low. Chemicals, safe or not, aren't necessary in my book and I like being able to tell people with a straight face that my honey is clean of all chemicals and medications. I have posted your ad on the beesource dot com discussion board if you would like to defend it to knowledgeable beekeepers. No one there is buying it."


> Well, that is fine with me. IF you want to use me as a financial whipping boy and take some kind of stand to make your small hive process seem like the great deal, I don't care. I don't care IF you don't buy it, you don't need it if you don't have a MITE problem. I will say this though. IT takes a couple years to down size the comb and the bees. NOT everyones bees are able to survive a nasty mite problem without some kind of help WHILE they are down sizing. I know all about your kind of beekeeping. AND I admire the hell out of you for coming up with this idea. I do wonder if it is all that wonderful, how come there are not more wild honey bees who survive the throat and varrola mites?? Where are they in their natural smaller combs?? You don't see them anymore, anywhere. ONLY wild bees are someones bees that swarmed. Your name wouldn't happen to be DEE or Keith would it??
> Look, if you have PURE no toxin honey to sell, and you are happy with how your bees are doing, didn't and don't have a mite problem, what is your problem with ME helping those who just are not as Bee wise as you are?? Obviously you have been doing organic bee keeping for some time.
> I am trying to help the small beekeeper who may not have all your years under their belt, who can't afford $$$ to keep losing hive after hive which cost hundreds to replace. I know, been there done that. I don't need to defend my product, it speaks for itself. I don't have to defend myself, as I have no nefarious inclinations. YOU need to leave me alone now that you have had your say, or I will report you as harrassing me.


And just now one more without a post from me.


> They won't, and that is my biggest problem. I want to share something I developed that really does a great job of JUST DROWNING The mites. IT is the only thing I will ever use for my very healthy 2 hives of bees. I have gotten some nasty and harrassing E mails from an Organic bee keeper who has taken it upon themselves to whip me raw against some kind of post they decided to tie me to. I have been informed that my listing has been posted in some Bee keeping forums, and black balled just because I won't give out my formula..So if you can come up with an idea of HOW I could do both and still make a few dollars to survive, I would love to hear it..


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> "_I guess you can't read. My listing sais ALL NATURAL,,,NO Chemicals!!! 
> NO CHEMICALS. No Pesticides, no toxins._"

I guess this fellow has no clue that even essential oils can be toxic
to bees in excessive doses. No use arguing with someone so clueless.

No use arguing with someone so abusive, either.
"I guess you can't read"... my, what customer service! 

But he is advertising something that he claims has a pesticidal 
application, and he has no EPA registration for his "product".
I wonder if he has any idea how large the fines are for this sort
of thing.


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

Seller:



> I won't give out my formula..So if you can come up with an idea of HOW I could do both and still make a few dollars to survive, I would love to hear it..


My response:



Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary said:


> If he really wanted to promote this grand idea of his, I think he should try it through a beekeeping company.


DUDE... That's the first thing I think about when I even start working on an inventive project (and, yes, I have started one.) Try BetterBee or Brushy Mountain, they're both looking for some new better way to fight mites. Going through a company is a lot better and more profitable than marketing it yourself. And they can go about selling it legally and securely without giving away your "secret formula." You see how skeptical we all are about the product. Now if BetterBee or Brushy Mountain were to approve of it and market it than I'd be more inclined to buy it.

Other companies (whom I have not dealt with) are Dadant (very large corporation), Kelley, Mann Lake, Bee-Commerce, and Rossman Apiary.

-Nathanael


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

Jim Fischer said:


> > "_I guess you can't read. My listing sais ALL NATURAL,,,NO Chemicals!!!
> > NO CHEMICALS. No Pesticides, no toxins._"
> 
> I guess this fellow has no clue that even essential oils can be toxic
> ...


Great point!


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## DayValleyDahlias (May 13, 2007)

One of the buyers of the stuff on eBay also purchased tea tree oil and lemomgrass oil...wonder if those are some of the secret ingredients?


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

In answer to my own question about how big a fine the EPA
would slap on this fellow see this:
http://www.epa.gov/oalj/orders/tuttle.htm

Which summarizes the strange tale of "Mite Solution".

Note that Jack Thomas of Mann Lake does not like any competition
at all, and was the one to file a complaint, and follow up (over and
over again) to get the EPA and FDA to take action against Mr. Tuttle.

I think that all the bee supply companies are run by people
smart enough to be aware of the regulations for miticides, so
I doubt if this fellow would have any takers among the catalog
houses.

Not to worry, he is clueless, won't sell much, and will soon disappear
into the usual cloud of greasy black smoke (or should I say "fog"?  )
associated with off-beat and untested approached to mites.

Some civic-minded person might want to tell eBay that they have
a vendor selling an unregistered pesticide product, as eBay shares
some liability here, but I don't have time to bother.


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## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

Perhaps if this product was listed it as "A Non-Toxic Blend Of Natural Oils and Herbal Extracts", and that it was meant to MOVE the mites away from supers, the seller's product would be highly acclaimed in this forum... Hey Jim, time to disclose the ingredients in your product - after all it is sprayed in honey supers...

Have you ever ventured away from your beeyard, gone into a drug store and seen products labeled as Herbal weight-loss products (how about Hoodia?) and Herbal vitamins/supplements (such as Ginkgo Biloba) having "miraculous" (I really dislike that term used for anything other than the divine) properties? Herbal and botanical ingredients within "Dietary Supplements" are not necessarily FDA monitored or regulated. Herbal or other botanical ingredients include processed or unprocessed plant parts (bark, leaves, flowers, fruits, and stems) as well as extracts and essential oils.

MM


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

MapMan said:


> Perhaps if this product was listed it as "A Non-Toxic Blend Of Natural Oils and Herbal Extracts", and that it was meant to MOVE the mites away from supers, the seller's product would be highly acclaimed in this forum...
> 
> MM


It'd still smell the same to me! Besides, the mites can spend all the time they like in the supers


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Herbal products are regularly removed from the market for making false advertising claims or for damaging the public good.


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## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

dcross said:


> It'd still smell the same to me! Besides, the mites can spend all the time they like in the supers


Yes, as long as they stayed there... but as you know, you have them in the supers, they are in the brood. 

I'm certainly not advocating putting some special "tonic" for mite control on ebay, but I think that we can't discount how the EPA and FDA define a "pesticide" - you'd be interested that under their rather loose definitions, a pesticide includes the repelling of pests. Now, as beekeepers we don't readily consider bees pests, but if a product is used to repel bees from honey supers, it can also be used to repel bees from living quarters, etc. by the general public. In that scenario, chemicals that are used with fume boards *might* be considered "pesticides", and subject to certain registration/regulation, unless the ingredients are on for example, EPA's exemption list.

Sometimes, even with exemption status, if distributed on a national basis, some state laws might require active ingredients be listed on the product label. I'd be very hesitant to distribute a product without ingredient listings and checking into Federal and State Regulations, especially in today's litigious climate. It's especially interesting how active folks get when it affects their bottom line... 

MM


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## MapMan (May 24, 2007)

Ross said:


> Herbal products are regularly removed from the market for making false advertising claims or for damaging the public good.



Yeah, haha - Ross, you're cracking me up... sure, believe that. Uh huh. And other products replace them on the shelves. 

Oh, don't forget that Pyrethrins are natural insecticides produced by certain species of the chrysanthemum plant. They are *herbal extracts. 

*MM


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

hey MapMan

you should use the search feature to go find some of the LONG discussions held here in the past about "what is a pesticide" 
apparently if I stand by the entrance of a hive and shout obscenities at the mites with the intent of harming them I'm using an unregistered pesticide and am subject to prosecution

Dave


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## Beaches' Bee-Haven Apiary (May 22, 2007)

drobbins said:


> apparently if I stand by the entrance of a hive and shout obscenities at the mites with the intent of harming them I'm using an unregistered pesticide and am subject to prosecution
> Dave


Ahhh... but if you patent and register that technique you can go prosecute all the beekeepers who currently curse their mites and have been ever since the critters immigrated here. Maybe there is some money in beekeeping after all!

If it weren't for my good upbringing and all that soap in my mouth for bad words I'd get that idea patented and then get FordGuy to take my case! Why I'd get so much money off of just suing the members of my association who swear at the mites every time they open a hive! Beekeeping's so fun, isn't it?

-Nathanael


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## okb (Apr 16, 2007)

Perhaps if this product was listed it as "A Non-Toxic Blend Of Natural Oils and Herbal Extracts", and that it was meant to MOVE the mites away from supers, the seller's product would be highly acclaimed in this forum... Hey Jim, time to disclose the ingredients in your product - after all it is sprayed in honey supers...


 Jim's reply may be: "No, I'm A Frayed Knot!"


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

>>after all it is sprayed in honey supers...

interesting point
I've never actually seen a bottle of it
reply Jim?

Dave


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## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

edited for the time being


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/2004/204_ephedra.html


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