# Planning my first vacuum retrieval. Advice needed.



## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

You could try the Cleo Hogan trapout setup. I think it will be hard to get the queen out without taking everything apart. Which ever way you go, close off all the holes, the wax and honey smell will have another swarm in the same place within a year.
Any bees left inside (brood) will probably over heat and die without the other bees providing ventilation. The melting wax and honey will be a mess too.


----------



## jkingqm (Apr 13, 2015)

GaryG74 said:


> You could try the Cleo Hogan trapout setup. I think it will be hard to get the queen out without taking everything apart. Which ever way you go, close off all the holes, the wax and honey smell will have another swarm in the same place within a year.
> Any bees left inside (brood) will probably over heat and die without the other bees providing ventilation. The melting wax and honey will be a mess too.


Thank you. I was considering a trapout but was reading where those don't always get the queen either. My Bee Vac has arrived and is ready to go for tomorrow evening. I'll be using expanding foam to fill the holes and I don' think there is any place where melting wax and honey can drip out. The dozer will be hauled away sometime and sold for scrap.


----------



## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Mr Hogan has a tip for luring the queen out by adding a frame of young brood (no bees) at a certain step. It usually gets the queen out then you put a one way cone over the exit and the queen is caught! Search the threads for "Hogan trap out", he usually has his e-mail address in the thread and will send you a file to down load free that has pictures and explains each step of the process.
When you use the expanding foam, you might want to push some wire screen in the hole so it's embedded in the foam and the bees won't be able to chew through it. I did a trap out of a concrete block wall, filled the holes with caulk without pushing screen into the holes, and the next year another swarm chewed through the caulk and got into the wall. The second time the screen kept any new swarms from getting back into the wall. I haven't received another call from the owner.


----------



## jkingqm (Apr 13, 2015)

GaryG74 said:


> When you use the expanding foam, you might want to push some wire screen in the hole


Good idea. The old dozer will be headed for the scrap yard eventually but it might be awhile.


----------



## jkingqm (Apr 13, 2015)

Yesterday after sunset when the bees stopped coming home I used the Bee Vac to extract the bees. They are confined in the Bee Vac collection box with sugar water in a top feeder and ventilation, sitting beside the dozer. I didn't get all of the bees out which makes me wonder if I got the queen or not. After work I'll go check on them and post updates on how this all went.


----------



## jkingqm (Apr 13, 2015)

The bees were all killed by the bee vac. I had it on the lowest suction with the plexiglass square open all the way. I used it again at another site. They were all killed also. Third time I figured out to offset the top box so there were openings on either side, so even less suction was used. The bees stayed in the tube but at least they were alive when I coaxed them out with smoke and Honey Bandit.


----------



## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Post pics of the killer vac. Something's not right.


----------



## jkingqm (Apr 13, 2015)

Mr.Beeman said:


> Post pics of the killer vac. Something's not right.


It looks like this: http://beevac.com/ I have the 8-frame with a RIGID shop vac. I took my setup to show my beek instructor. He thinks possibly that my bees died because they got too hot afterwards. I kept them in the Bee Vac with a top feeder with sugar water and a Bee Cool ventilator on top but since it wasn't on a screened bottom board they possibly overheated before I got them out of the Bee Vac 24 hrs later.

Also I didn't have frames in the collection box inside the Bee Vac. The written instructions that came with it did not say to put frames in the collection box.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My advice is to leave the vacuum at home...


----------



## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

jkingqm said:


> ....before I got them out of the Bee Vac 24 hrs later.
> 
> Also I didn't have frames in the collection box inside the Bee Vac.


When I was researching bee vacs, I thought the frames in the collection box were the main point of that style of vac....a place for the bees to spread out so they aren't piled 5" inches thick. 

Did you put a hive body with frames above the collection box?


----------



## Colino (May 28, 2013)

larryh said:


> When I was researching bee vacs, I thought the frames in the collection box were the main point of that style of vac....a place for the bees to spread out so they aren't piled 5" inches thick.
> 
> Did you put a hive body with frames above the collection box?


My wife and I just did a cutout with our home built BushVac.https://youtu.be/-7UxyXWi8Ug We vacuumed up at least 5lbs of bees, at the end we added a second box and we maybe had a couple of hundred dead Bees. I fill the box with a mixture of frames with foundation and a couple of drawn comb per box. It gives the bees a place to cluster without piling up and you don't have to dump them into a hive body later.


----------



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

"Advice needed."

I would use a Hogan trap out on this. When you do vacuum, to avoid killing the bees, use frames with foundation or drawn comb in the box. Use a second box on the vac if you need to further reduce suction. There should be enough suction to draw the bees into and through the hose, but not much more than that. Don't leave the box in direct sunlight if the motor is off. Once they have been vacuumed and moved, don't leave them closed up (even with screened ventilation) this time of year where you are. Leave the bees with a queen excluder and a fresh frame of open brood. Use a tremendous amount of smoke to drive the bees out of the bulldozer. (But make sure that there are no Sparks and no combustibles.) Put a one way trap out cone on the opening on the bulldozer once your done so the bees can't get back in. Later, when the bees have settled in a new home, open the access to the old hive so that your bees can rob out the honey before sealing it up.


----------



## GarfieldBeek (Jan 12, 2015)

I just did my first cut-out with the BushKill vac I just purchased. I knew there were going to be lots of bees so I used two deeps full of foundation, didn't have drawn comb to use.

I tried to keep suction to a minimum. I immediately added a third super above the cut out shim and placed about 4 combs that I had strapped into frames into the upper super. I then put on a regular cover propped up for ventilation and removed the shim.

Yesterday the temp was only about 90, cool for here.

This morning I went out to take out the shim and the bottom of the bee vac.

The bottom of the bee vac was almost 2 inches deep in dead bees. Also, the day before there were hundreds of crawlers around the hive. I'm thinking the vac injured them.

I won't blame this on the Bushkill yet. I have another colony to capture tomorrow and I will try to do it with less suction. 

My buddy has a homemade vac made out of a 5 gal bucket and a large storage tote. He's never killed as many bees as I did.

I transported the bees straight home and removed the


----------



## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I never lost that many bees if I added up all of my removal deaths. Maybe 20-30 at the most after a removal.


----------



## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Can't tell from any of the photos, but what type hose is on the vac, corregated (with internal ridges) or smooth interior? I used a bucket type vac, with home made "frames" in the bucket to give the bees something to cling to, several years ago that had the corregated type hose. The rough interior of the hose killed a lot of bees. I haven't done a cut out recently, but if I do, I plan to buy smooth interior hose that can be bought by the foot, to replace the standard "shop vac" hose.
Sounds like the bees are over heating after being vacuumed.


----------



## jkingqm (Apr 13, 2015)

larryh said:


> Did you put a hive body with frames above the collection box?


The first time had a hive body with frames above the collection box in the Bee Vac. The second time I didn't. The written instructions that came with it did not say to put frames in the Bee Vac.


----------



## jkingqm (Apr 13, 2015)

GaryG74 said:


> what type hose is on the vac, corregated (with internal ridges) or smooth interior?


The shop vac came with the corregated internal ridges. By the third time I figured out how to vacuum without killing the bees, I think the ridges might have helped the bees to cluster and stay inside at the end of the tube. I blew smoke through the tube then put a paper towel with some Honey Bandit at the far end of the tube and blew the fumes through to get them out of the tube into the collection box. This saved them from flying into the collection box and splatting against the back wall if in fact that was what was killing them. I don't know if it was that or the heat or both that killed them. It did see some bloody splats on the interior wall opposite the tube entrance. I might can put some foam there.


----------



## jkingqm (Apr 13, 2015)

Mr.Beeman said:


> I never lost that many bees if I added up all of my removal deaths. Maybe 20-30 at the most after a removal.


I see you didn't have frames in your collection box. So apparently me not having frames was not necessarily the cause of my two batches of bees dying.


----------



## Colino (May 28, 2013)

jkingqm said:


> The shop vac came with the corregated internal ridges. By the third time I figured out how to vacuum without killing the bees, I think the ridges might have helped the bees to cluster and stay inside at the end of the tube. I blew smoke through the tube then put a paper towel with some Honey Bandit at the far end of the tube and blew the fumes through to get them out of the tube into the collection box. This saved them from flying into the collection box and splatting against the back wall if in fact that was what was killing them. I don't know if it was that or the heat or both that killed them. It did see some bloody splats on the interior wall opposite the tube entrance. I might can put some foam there.


When I built my Vac I put a piece of plywood slanted up from the tube entrance up to the back bottom of the frames. that way the bees have a sliding stop and a built in ramp for walking up onto the frames. No sudden stops, no splattered bees.


----------



## jkingqm (Apr 13, 2015)

Colino said:


> When I built my Vac I put a piece of plywood slanted up from the tube entrance up to the back bottom of the frames. that way the bees have a sliding stop and a built in ramp for walking up onto the frames. No sudden stops, no splattered bees.


My Bee Vac does have a slanted floor/ramp.


----------



## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Use some spray adhesive and foam sheet about 1/2" or so thick for padding. Spray the area, where the bees will be impacting, with the adhesive and press the foam on the slanted floor/ramp and it will soften their sudden stop coming out of the hose.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Dead bees in vacs are caused by too much suction, suffocation and overheating. You are mis-managing your vac some how. I use mine dozens of times a year and only lose a few each time, primarily due to nozzle injuries when they are all tangled up in something. I always use combs for them to crawl up on, give them time to climb up onto the comb when vacuuming bees up in fast quantities, vent them as soon as finished vacuuming, and move the box onto a stand ASAP. Your use of chemicals could be the cause. <"I blew smoke through the tube then put a paper towel with some Honey Bandit at the far end of the tube and blew the fumes through to get them out of the tube into the collection box."


----------



## jkingqm (Apr 13, 2015)

odfrank said:


> Your use of chemicals could be the cause. "I blew smoke through the tube then put a paper towel with some Honey Bandit at the far end of the tube and blew the fumes through to get them out of the tube into the collection box."


No. I only did this on the one batch of bees that I did manage to keep alive. I kept them alive by letting them stay in the tube instead of going into the collection box. Then I got them out of the tube this way.


----------



## jkingqm (Apr 13, 2015)

odfrank said:


> Dead bees in vacs are caused by too much suction, suffocation and overheating. ... vent them as soon as finished vacuuming, and move the box onto a stand ASAP.


This is the advice I was looking for before I killed all those bees. After showing my beek instructor my setup and method he thinks I let them get overheated afterwards. I thought the idea behind the Bee Vac was to let you keep them in the collection box so that is what I did and they apparently overheated and died. I had a Bee Cool Ventilator on top but apparently enough air wasn't getting inside to matter.


----------



## jkingqm (Apr 13, 2015)

GarfieldBeek said:


> I just did my first cut-out with the BushKill vac I just purchased. ...
> The bottom of the bee vac was almost 2 inches deep in dead bees....I have another colony to capture tomorrow and I will try to do it with less suction.


How did this other capture go?


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

http://www.beecoolventilators.com/

From what I can see this device is made to keep bees from being too cold. Your problem is that you are depending on gadgets and not common sense. The Bushkill is made with a completely removable cover leaving the top fully vented. If you remove that cover and store them in cool shade they can be enclosed for a long time.


----------



## jkingqm (Apr 13, 2015)

odfrank said:


> http://www.beecoolventilators.com/
> 
> From what I can see this device is made to keep bees from being too cold. Your problem is that you are depending on gadgets and not common sense. The Bushkill is made with a completely removable cover leaving the top fully vented. If you remove that cover and store them in cool shade they can be enclosed for a long time.


I've only had bees for five weeks so I don't have experience. I was told to keep the bees in full sun to keep hive beetles away.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

jkingqm said:


> I've only had bees for five weeks so I don't have experience. I was told to keep the bees in full sun to keep hive beetles away.


If you have only had bees for five weeks you are clearly in over your head doing cutout removals. Learn some basics first. Start hives with packages, swarms of bought nucs. You keep HIVES in full sun, hive that are free to come and go and ventilate their hive. SHB will do no damage in the few hours you want to store vacuumed bees. You keep enclosed trapped bees in cool shade who are limited in their circumstances to ventilate their box. You put combs in a Bushkill vac so that the bees have something to climb up onto and stand and fan in their normal lifestyle manner. Bees in nature are only glomed together during a swarm, which is a highly structured entity. Vacuumed bees are glomed together in an unnatural manner. You must return them immediately to a natural position or they will suffocate or cook, as you have done to them several times.


----------



## jkingqm (Apr 13, 2015)

odfrank said:


> You keep HIVES in full sun, hive that are free to come and go and ventilate their hive. SHB will do no damage in the few hours you want to store vacuumed bees. You keep enclosed trapped bees in cool shade who are limited in their circumstances to ventilate their box.


All good advice thank you. I didn't think SHB would be a problem in the few hours afterwards, but I didn't think the full sun would be harmful because was told to keep my hives in full sun. There were not that many bees. Afterwards (after the overheating) was told that the fewer the bees the harder it is for them to keep themselves cool, the more bees the easier it is for them to keep keep cool, which is counterintuitive to new beeks like me. These two retrievals did not involve cutting out any comb because I could not get any access to the comb. It involved just getting the bees.


----------



## Bobcat57 (Jun 25, 2014)

I use a screened box with carpet pad glued to the bottom. Bucket head vacuum from home depot WITH smooth interior hose. My hose is about 6ft long , the less they have to tumble the better !


----------



## jkingqm (Apr 13, 2015)

Bobcat57 said:


> I use a screened box with carpet pad glued to the bottom. Bucket head vacuum from home depot WITH smooth interior hose. My hose is about 6ft long , the less they have to tumble the better !


I've got some foam to maybe use next time. I don't want to take any more chances.


----------

