# Is Beekeeping broke?



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Many beekeepers keep abreast of new ideas and research…I’d like to think I’m in that category. If this thread was initiated by the screened bottom board thread, I’d like to point out that:
I looked at the research. Early studies suggested up to a 15% reduction in mite loads. Follow up studies had mixed results.

I tried them myself and couldn’t see any difference in mite loads but did note that small hive beetles were able to easily escape through the screen and return at another opportunity plus….shb larvae have an easy transit to the soil to pupate.

And last but not least….the argument that they reduce summertime bearding. I really don’t see bearding as a problem needing to be fixed. It is a normal behavior that allows bees who don’t have inside duties to remain outside and not add biological heat to the nest. A non-issue.

My point is…in my opinion, many beekeepers jump on the latest fad whether it is genuinely useful or simply a ‘feel good’ thing
.
Change for the sake of change serves no purpose.

And…if it ain’t broke don’t fix it has a legitimate place in beekeeping.

On the other hand where problems exist….to keep doing things the same way will perpetuate those problems.

Which of these applies will be argued amongst beekeepers but as long as the arguments remain civil…it is a normal process.

Is beekeeping broke? I don't think so.
Is there room for improvement? Of course.
Are we likely to disagree along the way? Probably.

For the attentive beekeeper….there’s nothing stagnant in beekeeping.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Nice post Dan. 

I suggest to all new beekeepers I instruct that beekeeping is a blend of "art and science". Note I didn't say definitive science, since definitive studies are hard to come by simply due the enormous number of variables present in biological studies. That doesn't imply that all published results are junk, but should be viewed as something that may or may not help with your hives in your local conditions, using your beekeeping practices. The "art" part of course also leads to enormous confusion as well, this sprinkled with a healthy dose of ego and we're off to the races. I believe that experimentation is healthy, but beware of making definitive statements based upon these experiments.

SBB...I have my own theories, but I'll save them for a cold winter's post.


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

First of all Beemandan, I think we share very similar opinions on screened bottom boards and change for the sake of change. That isn't the point of my argument.

My point is at one point the Langstroth hive was viewed as a fad. Keeping bees in a skep or a log had withstood the test of time for much longer than our modern hive. What changed was milling technology, the invention of power tools, etc. 

Using time as a criteria for what is best isn't always true. Common sense and or ability as humans to think critically of things needs to be the basis of our beekeeping practices. Trial and error seems to be the primary method of research with beekeepers. The majority of conversations on these boards is people "trying" a thing and people responding "I already tried that, didn't work well".

I want to encourage people to respond with more reasoning and explanations. I think this will provide beekeepers a better understanding of why things work and what is right for their region.


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

I apologize, I think I committed a major crime in forum etiquette. I knew I wanted to say something but feel I didn't fully understand the point I wanted to make.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Joes_bees said:


> I apologize, I think I committed a major crime in forum etiquette.


Short of name calling or general incivility, I don't think there is such a thing as a major crime in forum etiquette. I surely hope there wasn't anything in my post to give you that idea.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I don't think the Lang hive was a fad when it was developed, it came into being for a purpose which was to make commercial beekeeping possible. Up till that time beekeeping was not much more than a hobby for those involved in it. John


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jmgi said:


> I don't think the Lang hive was a fad when it was developed,


It is easy for us to say with twenty-twenty hindsight...but I bet in it's infancy it was derided by many and was only accepted after convincingly proving its worth. There will always be those who say 'I've been doing it my way forever....and I ain't gonna change.


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

No Beemandan, I'm just being hard on myself for not getting to the point. The posts I remember reading of yours are great, you just struck a nerve and I'm sorry it seemed to target you.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

beemandan, in the book "America's Master of Bee Culture, The Life of L.L. Langstroth" it clearly states his purpose in developing the moveable frame hive, it wasn't by accident that it came to be the way it is. So, its not with 20/20 hindsight that I made that statement about it not being a fad, if that's what you're getting at. John


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

it's still being derided by many. Jump on any top bar hive website. "The Langstroth is a honey factory, bad for bees designed for beekeepers". Of course it was not universally accepted as a good solution in its infancy. Many people would lump commercial beekeeping in that category as well. 

I don't really care to point fingers or start another discussion on top bar vs. frames. 

As Astrobee said, beekeeping is both a science and an art. Keep a healthy balance.

You can try and sculpt a statue with ideas, and trial and error or you can learn a fundamental understanding of the laws of physics and save a lot of headache and wasted materials.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Joes_bees said:


> I want to encourage people to respond with more reasoning and explanations. I think this will provide beekeepers a better understanding of why things work and what is right for their region.


Writing skills are different than doing skills. A good writer can dream up a procedure that sounds perfect but doesn't really work. A doer can perform a procedure that works flawlessly but can't express himself so the writer can understand what he is doing.

There will always be a certain amount of disagreements and confusion in any public forum. It's natural.
I use a Lang hive with screen bottom boards because I can see what drops out of the hive. It is convenient for me. This year I will see what happens with these screens wide open along with upper entrances. Regardless of what happens there are so many variables that can sway the results nothing is definitive.


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## Maryland Beekeeper (Nov 1, 2012)

Hi all,
I was recently commenting to a friend that new ideas seem to meet a lot of resistance in beekeeping and he pointed out that this is true of most things. " Don't worry about people stealing your good ideas, if your ideas are any good you'll have to ram them down peoples throats". 
Cheers,
Drew
p.s. my screened bottom cannot be accessed except through entrance, ( 1.5" pvc wrapped w/ sticky tape). Oil tray underneath, found it very helpful in SHB control.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jmgi said:


> it wasn't by accident that it came to be the way it is.


I understand that Langstroth based his design on observed bee behavior and I wasn't making a comment on you. I was only pointing out that when it was first introduced, no matter how effective it actually was, there would surely have been many who believed it a fad. Today (with OUR twenty-twenty hindsight), it is easy for us to recognize the genius of his design.


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

As you said, we are on a public forum, so writing skills matter. (I guess you can upload pictures)

A doer can do the same thing for years and years, but when the rug is pulled out from under them and what they've been doing doesn't work anymore, they become readers and you better hope the person who figured out how to do the new thing knows how to write.

Beekeeping does have a lot of variables. I think you underestimate just how powerful the information age is. For example check out some of the surveys conducted by *http://beeinformed.org/*


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I'm open to new ideas in beekeeping as long as they involve less work and increase production. John


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

how about if they involve more work, less production, and there are still bees for future generations to keep?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

If that's the way it has to be, I'm fine with that too. John


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

My impression is that the "science" is compromised in the view of majority of beekeepers at _beesource_. Most of the people are skeptical about science. I think, there is a huge misunderstanding what is science? I could not speak for everybody, but my opinion on this matter as following:
- "trial-and-error" is not a science! Well, it is stone-age "science"...
- In my opinion, science is when it is able to predict something based on incomplete data. We collect data using many different approaches including "trial-and-error". Based on data we create a theory how thing works. Than we tested our theory to see if theory properly described how thing works. Once theory is established, we would try to use it to predict its outcome in the real situation when we do not know the answer. If theory works properly and may be used in practical life - to me, this is a celebration of true Science! 
- unfortunatelly, there is not much real science in beekeeping. Most of the "scientific" articles I've read are just data-collection. They just presented some observation without any "theory" how this observation may help to understand/improve something. Like, they observed the pesticides accumulation in the wax, but in most cases, there is no study how to mitigate the issue. Well, the most "scientific"conclusion was - "do not use pesticides!" In my opinion, it is very primitive approach. When people read such stuff, no surprise, they are skeptical about science!
- true science is fueled by curiosity: "why thing works this way?" It seems to me that modern society is less-and-less interested in "how thing works?" It is interested in consumption of the final "product" (it is literate with honey) not thinking who and how the product has been created. No curiosity - no science, really.
- based on my interaction with _beesource_, I have to conclude (scientific approach!), that most people are reluctant to make efforts to understand things (related to bees or other) even when information is available, to make an educated decision. Than, uneducated decision took place...

I apologize for my opinion - nothing personal.
Sergey


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I am the first to argue that beekeeping is never stagnant. Never has been..... never will be. We as beekeepers are constantly striving to better serve our hobby and our beloved bees that gives us.... well.... everything they have.
There are going to be tried and true methodology that is a constant, but improvements are being thought of if not implemented daily. The list of which can go on forever.
I will however concede that there are some "dyed in the wool" beekeepers that will not accept or implement change due to the fact they have always done it a certain way and are comfortable doing so.


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## ken rice (Apr 28, 2010)

Ref:screened bottom boards.I started beekeeping using sbb with oil pan. This was kinda new (oil pan) when I started. I keep the pans in 12months a year. Pulling the pan without opening the hive can tell you a lot about what's going on inside without cracking the lid. The years I have been keeping bees I will have to say the oil keeps shb in check and have found many different critters in the oil I may not have known about without taking down boxes and looking. I now build my own bb with oil pan. I have 30 or so hives and for me,I wouldn't put bees on anything else. Only my opinion and what works for me


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

funny how so many people can't read this thread without feeling the need to add their findings on screened bottom boards.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>With the constant battle against Varroa mites, systemic pesticides, aging number of commercial beekeepers, CCD... the list goes on, I would argue that beekeeping is broken. 

And yet beekeeping still is going, and going strong. innovation and persistence, anyone who continues to keep bees and continue to make a go out of it must be doing something right. 
To imply that something is broken mean that something needs to be fixed. What exactly needs to be fixed?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Joes_bees said:


> funny how so many people can't read this thread without feeling the need to add their findings on screened bottom boards.


Sorry Joe...my fault.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

cerezha said:


> My impression is that the "science" is compromised in the view of majority of beekeepers at _beesource_. Most of the people are skeptical about science.


Sergey, I suspect that you may be projecting your opinion on the rest of beesource. Don't worry....it happens all the time.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

beemandan said:


> Sergey, I suspect that you may be projecting your opinion on the rest of _beesource_. Don't worry....it happens all the time.


 well... I guess... I just made conclusion based on my personal experience - I could not speak for others... it was very interesting experience, but unusual (to me)...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joes_bees said:


> The world around us is constantly changing. Beekeeping experiences new challenges and scientific breakthroughs every year. If you are not adapting your beekeeping practices and staying up to date with the latest research, beekeeping may not have a place in the future.


To a greater or lesser degree it has always been thus. Historically speaking our current situation is not a new phenomenon. Epidemic AFB and Isle of Wight Disease are just two examples.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

And by the way....beekeeping may not be broke but I know a number of beekeepers (one near and dear to my heart) who are.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joes_bees said:


> how about if they involve more work, less production, and there are still bees for future generations to keep?


Do you really think that anything we as beekeepers might do would keep there from being bees in the future for future beekeepers? At the hights of CCD there were no shortages of bees for those who wanted them. There has actually been growth amongst those who have need of bees in almonds and other crops.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beemandan said:


> Sergey, I suspect that you may be projecting your opinion on the rest of beesource. Don't worry....it happens all the time.


He is a Scientist. He knows things most of the rest of us only think we knoiw, such as the Scientiufic Process. Sergey's training and education give him a certain point of view. I can only imagine him rolling on the floor laughing at times when faux science is talked about by nonscientists.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

We all find what work for each of us. Some just do it for fun of it and other do it for the fun of it with a pay check. Sorry just a honey producer not a beekeeper.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I am an equipment and product mover. I only work bees part of the time.


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

cerezha said:


> It seems to me that modern society is less-and-less interested in "how thing works?"


I'm often extremely curious in this way. I simply find that most of the times this happens I can look up the answer on the internet because the answer has already been found. And if by chance the answer hasn't been found, I could find the answer if I had $10,000 to fund experiments, but I just don't have that laying around to satisfy my curiosity.



cerezha said:


> Most of the "scientific" articles I've read are just data-collection.


Agree w/you there. There are reasons for this, but still mulling this over in my head.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> ... I can only imagine him rolling on the floor laughing at times when faux science is talked about by nonscientists.


 I wish to have such amount of humor... unfortunately, I am deadly serious about my specialty. _Beesourse_ is very interesting to me project - I learned a lot from it... mostly about people. People are extremely nice... Nice to hear from you again, Mark.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

And you as well Sergey.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

When I joined Beesource I did not have the expectation of a science think tank. I wanted to hear from other people what they are doing and then I would ask why in most cases. If their way of thinking made sense to me then that is what I would do or try first. Many times I have stated my opinions, some agree and some do not. That is a public forum and that is what you should expect from a public forum.
If you are a scientist and you want to discuss scientific theories it would be easier to do that amongst your peers not on a public forum. But certainly your ideas should be welcomed on a public forum as well as anyone just keeping bees.

Science is not dead today, far from it. The world is moving so fast these days it is hard for the older generation to keep up. Bees are just not a high priority for most scientist.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> The world is moving so fast these days it is* hard for the older generation to keep up.*


You were doing just fine with your post till you got to this part. Just consider that you could just have easily written:

"The world is moving so fast these days it is* hard for some people to keep up."

*I don't particularly want to engage you in a battle over this issue, but this kind of _lack _of thinking is exactly how it gets started.

Do you have any evidence that "older" people have more difficulty than "younger" people with science?. There are plenty of technophobes (or head in the sand types) out there at every age. I do agree that whatever your age, science and technology is moving fast enough that _no _individual can keep up with all of it.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> I am an equipment and product mover. I only work bees part of the time.


I'm a pilot. I pile it here and pile it there and pile it everywhere!


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Do you really think that anything we as beekeepers might do would keep there from being bees in the future for future beekeepers?


 .... YES.

And I agree Rader, I was very impressed with Acebirds post, but leave the age stereotype out of it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Do you have any evidence that "older" people have more difficulty than "younger" people with science?.


Like it or not the brain slows down as you get older. You can accept that or not but the deterioration of the brain will continue until it ceases to function. Everyone is destine to get dementia or Alzheimer if you don't die from something else first.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joes_bees said:


> .... YES.
> 
> And I agree Rader, I was very impressed with Acebirds post, but leave the age stereotype out of it.


Seriously? "YES"? What makes you think so? Why do you have no faith in the resiliency of the Honeybee? I see no evidence of extinction. Do you?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Like it or not the brain slows down as you get older. You can accept that or not but the deterioration of the brain will continue until it ceases to function. Everyone is destine to get dementia or Alzheimer if you don't die from something else first.


That's what I thought you meant, the elderly and mentally infirm, not older people. You aren't in your 80s or 90s, so elderly probably would have been a better choice of words. Though it would still have been silly to say. imo


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

this fits right in line with what I'm trying to say. Many people grow old and feel that is evidence that their opinion is correct. Being able to retain an opinion for so many years doesn't ALWAYS mean it is right. It can also mean your opinion has never been challenged or you are a very stubborn person.

However many people grow old despite the bleak picture Acebird paints, and do keep an open mind, do contribute and interact with the world in a way that benefits us all. It's not right to lump those people in with the others.

Now my view of beekeeping may sound bleak, questioning if it's broken and listing problems, but it's only so that we can prepare to react and quickly as we have changed it. Beekeeping is rooted in a lot of history... a lot. However in the last 50 years we have guided breeding and shaped genetics, exposed hives to pests, viruses and chemicals. Human kind has a heavy hand in the survival of many species on this planet and to think there are people like sqkcrk oblivious to our effect on bees is terrifying.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joes_bees said:


> However in the last 50 years we have guided breeding and shaped genetics, exposed hives to pests, viruses and chemicals. Human kind has a heavy hand in the survival of many species on this planet and to think there are people like sqkcrk oblivious to our effect on bees is terrifying.



Maybe you know more than I, maybe you don't. That's why I asked you to enlighten me, relieve my oblivion. While you arew at it, would you please lighten up on the fear mongering. We may not be in "The Golden Age of Beekeeping", but for many of us things are pretty darn good. Bees are plentiful. Honey prices are Historically high even accounting for inflation or cost of living. Pollination needs are huge and growing and pollination fees are good.

So, what's w/ the doom and gloom? I'm not oblivious. I'm simply saying this is nothing new, historically speaking, and not only are things not that bad they will be fine in the future. Maybe it is you who are blind to how things are.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Human kind has a heavy hand in the survival of many species on this planet and to think there are people like sqkcrk oblivious to our effect on bees is terrifying.


Well if you are not set in your ways or too stubborn that you can't be swayed...
I think the human race might have an effect on the beekeeping industry but I do not believe it has any effect on the extinction of an insect, at least not at our present or near future population. We stand more a chance of killing ourselves off than any insect.

I just got this from my sister:



> The following write-up explains so much.
> 
> "Ever walk into a room with some purpose in mind, only to completely forget what that purpose was? Turns out, doors themselves are to blame for these strange memory lapses. Psychologists at the University of Notre Dame have discovered that passing through a doorway triggers what's known as an 'event boundary' in the mind, separating one set of thoughts and memories from the next. Your brain files away the thoughts you had in the previous room and prepares a blank slate for the new locale."
> 
> ...


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Well, Ace, I was going to propose that if you modified your original post to eliminate the "older" insult, that I would modify my response to essentially endorse your post.

But you seem to enjoy tossing out gratuitous insults. How would your original post been less true without the "older generation" portion?

You post these kinds of insults on a regular basis, then when I later find them and repost your own quotes in a later thread, you complain that *you *are being insulted! But they are simply your own words!

Carry on!

:digging:


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Honey prices are Historically high even accounting for inflation or cost of living. Pollination needs are huge and growing and pollination fees are good.


Have you taken any economics classes? What causes prices and demand to be high? The lack of supply.

Your point about fear mongering is well taken. I'm glad to hear things are good for you there in NY.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

An optimistic economist may point to an increase in demand rather than a shortage of supply.
I don't think beekeeping is broke, we just have challenges that need to be overcome. A short term problem in the grand scheme of things.


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

I don't view myself as a fear monger, or doomsday sayer... people that know me think I'm generally happy and optimistic. It appears compared to the sentiment on the beesource forums I am. I guess I always thought the media was blowing things out of proportion, but this discussion is leading me to believe all the beekeepers out there are happy.

Am I suppose to believe those studying beekeeping at the universities are just fanning the flames to get more funding for their research?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joes_bees said:


> Have you taken any economics classes? What causes prices and demand to be high? The lack of supply.
> 
> Your point about fear mongering is well taken. I'm glad to hear things are good for you there in NY.


Joe, well, actually I have, but that was a while ago. I also gained a two year degree in Beekeeping from Ohio State University's Ag Tech Institute under Dr. Jim Tew where I learn something about beekeeping history. Thus my nothing new comment.

I think you and I have a diametrically different point of view, mine being optomistic. I see by your profile that you are 26. Too young to have such an attitude about life.

My optomism isn't just in regards to what is happening here in NY. I actaully have experience working bees in a number of States over the last 36 years. I have also lost hundreds of colonies of bees in one year, going from 732 down to 100 and yet not given up. Stubbornly optomistic or whatever adjective you wish to submit.

Here's another thing to think on. Have you ever tried to eradicate anything? Disease, pest, animal, plant or whatever? Next to impossible. Unless there is a hugh amount of money and determination. If the Federal Government wished to eradicate honeybees for some reason it would be so hughly expensive and take so long that it wouldn't be worth it. So, honeybees are going to be here long after you and your grandchildren are dead and gone.

There is no lack of supply for those who want to have what they want. They may not be able to afford what they want, but that doesn't mean there is a shortage.

You still keeping bees? I hope so. Stick around and stick it out and you will be glad you did. I predict.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joes_bees said:


> I guess I always thought the media was blowing things out of proportion, but this discussion is leading me to believe all the beekeepers out there are happy.
> 
> Am I suppose to believe those studying beekeeping at the universities are just fanning the flames to get more funding for their research?


People are motivated to do all sorts of things for selfish reasons. Media hype has helped raise public awarness of the plight of beekeepers and gets people to watch the News and buy Newspapers. That's their business.

Trust but verify. Take everything w/ a grain of salt. Question authority. All those things. Yes, Universitys do fan flames to a greater or lesser degree in order to justify getting funding. It's how the game is played. There could also be a problem which could be addressed by research which Universities are best able to find answers to. Some times not.


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

I see you're quick to bash the young as well as the elderly.

And apparently you have grown smarter than your teacher 


Dr. James E. Tew said:


> Why are honey bees for pollination in short supply?
> 
> In the mid-1980s, two new species of predaceous mites established themselves in the US. They have been infesting and killing both managed and wild colonies ever since. Finally, across the US, most wild honey bee colonies have been killed leaving only managed colonies to provide honey bee pollination services. The mites can be controlled in managed colonies. Concurrent with the colony decline, honey prices have risen causing some beekeepers to allocate colonies to honey production rather than crop pollination. Therefore, there are fewer honey bee colonies and many of the remaining colonies are being directed toward honey production.


taken from http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2171.html


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

Also I have tried to eradicate a few things. I work in the sterilization industry. Very hard to kill bad things, surprisingly easy to kill good things.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> But you seem to enjoy tossing out gratuitous insults.


Says you. I don't post insults. It is a twist You try to spin not just with me. Practically every post you make that is a comment about me has a animated cartoon attached. What do you classify that as? 
I have read my comment over as to it's insulting nature and see none of it. It is a fact of life. Maybe the truth hurts.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joes_bees said:


> I see you're quick to bash the young as well as the elderly.
> 
> And apparently you have grown smarter than your teacher
> 
> taken from http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2171.html


Please show me the quote where I bashed the young and the one where I bashed the elderly. Because I don't think I did either.

Ar Jim's comments dated 2000? Is that what the "/2000/" in the Link address means? I know I am not smarter than Jim, though that is the goal of all Professors, or it should be.

Jim has an even wider point of view than I do, since he gets around and talks to more people than I do. But, I believe he would agree w/ me that things are pretty good right now relatively compared to what they have been like.

You seem to be taking this personally.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joes_bees said:


> Also I have tried to eradicate a few things. I work in the sterilization industry. Very hard to kill bad things, surprisingly easy to kill good things.


Good and bad are relative terms, often depending on one's point of view. Purpleloostrife is a weed to be eradicated from the pov of NYS DEC, but when beekeepers hear this being said we automatically think, "Hey, leave our nectar source alone. We have already lost so many."

Killing and eradicating are two different things too, as you appear to know.


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

if you right click on the page, view page information you'll see it was last modified on October 08, 2007. So yep, it's a bit old. 

Man, you're right, glad that whole crisis was averted and bees are just fine now. I think I'm going to kick back and relax.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

My Mom would prescribe a Chill Pill for you were she still alive. Get over yourself. Goodnight is right. I don't see why you can't respect the fact that we see things differently from different perspectives w/out getting snotty about it.

Have a nice life.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I don't post insults.


Huh. What about this thread? You yourself described your post as an insult!


> _Last edited by Acebird; 05-28-2012 at __07:24 AM__. _*Reason:*_ Removed insulting phrase_
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?269718-Got-a-Visit-from-the-Bee-Inspector/page2


And then there is this thread, where your post was so insulting that _Barry _deleted it. I did save a screenshot before it was deleted, but I am not going to post it here. Perhaps you remember this one? Its right after post #65 in the thread linked below:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?275228-Virginia-Beekeepers-Ass-meetng-advice/page4
You were making a comparison about the competence of a person based on the _his ethnic heritage and the shade of skin_. Does that ring a bell, Acebird?

There are more, but that will do for now. Lets move on to the _Funny Pages_.



Acebird said:


> Practically every post you make that is a comment about me has a animated cartoon attached.


Only _some _of the icons I use are animated. Perhaps you would like me to only use the icons that are static. Do you prefer this one?  

These icons are available to all members as far as I can tell. Are you really paranoid enough to believe that _Barry _provided those icons just so members could embarrass Acebird? :lpf:


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Some of you guys sound like a bunch of bickering old hens.
Agree to disagree and go to the opposite corners of the boxing ring! lol


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Agree to disagree and go to the opposite corners of the boxing ring! lol

I think _Joes_bees _is in a class by himself with post #57. The visuals are scary, but I'm still not sure whether he was proposing the _front _or _back _side.



And I'm not giving up icons until they are pried from my ...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

The thing is, in business, when there is a challange, someone is there to take it up. That called adapting. 
If the industry gets to a point of being "broke", someone will fix it, always


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

In 1991 in Alberta we had 830 beekeepers with 147,000 colonies and in 2011 we had 798 beekeepers with 274,600 colonies. 
I'll admit that some beekeepers have faced huge losses during those years but overall ,at least here, the industry is growing. This is why I don't believe anything is broke. We just adapt to the new challenges, learn from our mistakes and continue doing the best we can.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

and make money! lol


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Mr.Beeman said:


> Some of you guys sound like a bunch of bickering old hens.


Hey, we take our bickering hens seriously around here! :banana:


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

About the science in beekeeping: Review of the scientific method:
1. Ask a question, such as, do SBB work in my area
2. Do background and research, Research beekeepers observations, google technical papers, read some bee books........
3. Construct a hypothesis, If I add a SBB to my hives the bees will produce more honey in the hot summer months.
4. Test the hypothesis, Using similar colonies, add SBB to some and not to others...
5. Analyze the data, Make a comparison of how the different hives performed, be honest
6. Communicate your results, Tell you forom members your experiment and conclusions, write a technical paper

Don't a large portion of our forum members go through process? Sure they don't record all the data as they should, but from what I read on this forum several of you ask a question, draw a hypothesis, test your ideas, and draw some conclusions. As a group, we are not as far from science as some think.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I wouldn't call what beekeepers do scientific


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

lazy shooter said:


> As a group, we are not as far from science as some think.


IMHO, _Lazy shooter's _comments apply to even the "older generation" of beekeepers. 

And a review of Acebird's resume shows that he is approximately 59 years old.  Old enough to be a great-grandfather, and certainly a member of the "older generation", at least from the perspective of some of our younger members, perhaps like _Westernbeekeper_, 19 years old, according to some of his posts.

Full disclosure: My 60th birthday was earlier this summer.


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

I'm glad to see this thread got back on track (though at this point I almost wish it would just die  ). I'd like to apologize for post 57, I stayed up too late awaiting election results and am now cranky. Thank you Barry for moderating and Rader for providing comic relief.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Barry said:


> Hey, we take our bickering hens seriously around here! :banana:


 helps pay da rent eh barry?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joes_bees said:


> this fits right in line with what I'm trying to say. Many people grow old and feel that is evidence that their opinion is correct. Being able to retain an opinion for so many years doesn't ALWAYS mean it is right. It can also mean your opinion has never been challenged or you are a very stubborn person.
> 
> However many people grow old despite the bleak picture Acebird paints, and do keep an open mind, do contribute and interact with the world in a way that benefits us all. It's not right to lump those people in with the others.
> 
> Now my view of beekeeping may sound bleak, questioning if it's broken and listing problems, but it's only so that we can prepare to react and quickly as we have changed it. Beekeeping is rooted in a lot of history... a lot. However in the last 50 years we have guided breeding and shaped genetics, exposed hives to pests, viruses and chemicals. Human kind has a heavy hand in the survival of many species on this planet and to think there are people like sqkcrk oblivious to our effect on bees is terrifying.


I ask questions of this young lad, as well as perspective, and get insults and am called a troll. He suggests that others are closeminded and unable to adapt and that I am "oblivious to our effects on bees" when I have had first hand experience w/ those effects since the arrival of tracheal mites and varroa mites, nosema, shb, Africanized Bees, and all. Be that as it may. If Joe sees no benefit to my point of view, my experiences and knowledge I will agree to leave him alone and ask that he do the same by me.

Adieu.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

sqkcrk said:


> I will agree to leave him alone and ask that he do the same by me.


Just don't leave us, as we value your opinion and experience.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Beekeeping is not broke(I agree with SQKCRK), but there are two areas that do effect beekeeping that are broke:

Government Scientists(excluding a certain Gentleman from the U of Neb) are no longer doing there job in an ethical and professional manner. In Jan of 2009, I went to listen to an entomologist from Illinois speak at Fermilab about CCD. I had prearranged to speak with her after the lecture about my successes with CCD. After listening to her I realized she had no clue about what causes CCD, and had not taken the time to discolor her smoker of propolize her hive tool(there where pictures). After the lecture I offered her with a copy of a peer review journal article that would have helped her. She was not interested. It turns out she had a pending grant that it might have jeopardized. In the end, her grant supported the paper I offered her.

The people that work for us(Govt) , need to go back to proper science, roll up their sleeves, get their hands dirty, and comprhend that maybe th ebeekeepers know more about bees(but not science) than they do, put their egos in a jar, and work for a FUNCTIONAL solution to CCD and other maladies.

The other "broke" part is the failure of those entrusted to protect our food supply, to stop the influx of "funny honey". Read the numbers of how much tariff money was avoided, then tell me how "there is no money to fund enforcement". Baloney. Somebody just ain't doin' their job, the money is there. 

Crazy Roland


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## RogerCrum (Jun 19, 2011)

Both sqkcrk (Mark) and Roland are right on the money. Hope to meet each some day and thank them in person for their experienced views. 
Roger


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

I'd like to apologize to sqkcrk and other beekeepers I offended on this board, I was disrespectful to your experience and knowledge in an attempt to assert my own importance in this community and I am far from proving it. I lost a bit of sleep over this thread, not because I was angry, but because I was humbled.

As he pointed out...


sqkcrk said:


> You seem to be taking this personally.


I was and I'd like to explain why. 

When I was 16, I soaked up all the knowledge I could get and bought my first two hives. Following the instruction of older beekeepers and the books I was reading I treated my hives with Fumidil B, Terramycin, and Apistan. My hives swarmed because I couldn't add supers until the treatments were done. I quickly learned trying to follow all beekeepers' advice wasn't possible since they often contradict. I also decided early on I would never rely on honey production for a living.

I grew my apiary to 6 hives and had some good honey crops. During college, interest waned since time had to be devoted to a bachelors degree, my hives didn't get the attention they needed.

I graduated in a crappy economy and had a lot of trouble finding a job. I'm now back on my feet after getting my foot in the door at a great company. This career path is sure to be profitable and soul sucking.

This last year I went out again and read as much as I could on the current state of beekeeping, watched documentaries, networked with beekeepers and researchers. I decided I'm going to make a career change to honeybee research and growing my own apiary. The opinion of sqkcrk, an experienced beekeeper, telling me things were fine and the crisis is over was heart breaking. Making me second guess a decision I'll be making next spring that many in my life already view as foolish.

Regardless of how true it is, I have a lot to learn before I'm in any condition to help the beekeeping community.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

I am sorry, I missed the whole scandal. Couple of points:

- if everything is good in beekeeping as Mark and others stated, than - why scientists should bother and try to help beekeeping? The way, how "science" work in US - it should be demand for research and money. If bees are OK, than, there is no demand and thus, no money. I have to add that this is "local", US-specific approach. Many European countries (and their taxpayers) think differently. For instance, in Germany, there is country wide program to trace mite-resistant traits and ABH. They use pretty good scientific approach! _Joes_bees_ you should see if you could find a place in Europe. It looks like bee-experts do not need you here, sad!

- aging - ridiculous discussion. Everybody is aging and there is no offense in it! I am 57 and my brain works at least twice slower than 20 years ago. My 85 mom could not understand my science even she was "trained" for the last 30 years. There are some examples of high scientific productivity in senior ages, but I know only 2-3 true examples. University (UC) has a policy that professor could not keep research Lab after age of 65. S/he could teach. The whole scientific population is aging. Average age when researcher finally got his/her own lab is close to 50 when scientific productivity already declining! We definitely need fresh young brains in the science - and yes, we have them (cheap), they come from China and other countries (Europe?). I was invited to work in US as a specialist of "national interest" - they could not find American on that position... the way, how science is treated on this forum is alarming.

-beekeeping is a craft in very good sense of this word. It is not a science and thus, all above is not applicable to beekeeping.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>- aging - ridiculous discussion. Everybody is aging and there is no offense in it

seems the criticism was more so against the poster who said rather than what the poster said


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I'd like to apologize to sqkcrk and other beekeepers I offended on this board, I was disrespectful to your experience and knowledge in an attempt to assert my own importance in this community and I am far from proving it. I lost a bit of sleep over this thread, not because I was angry, but because I was humbled.

Joes_bees, relax. One topic to the next. Takes two, right? If everyone agreed on these kind of subjects there would be no need for discussion. Differing points of view makes discussion interesting. You have made for an interesting conversation. 

That said, and to the point of your topic, do you feel the same way still, or has your point of view changed? I dont agree with your initial assertion. I wish you would give beekeepers more credit for what we are accomplishing.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

On the off chance I am going against what I said before about not engaging I feel a need to clear something up.

I have not reviewed all of my Posts in this Thread, but, I don't believe I ever wrote that "everything is good" or that everything is fine or okay. I know better. My point was that things are not as bad as Joe seemed to think and definitely not as bad as they used to be sometime over the last 26 years since Varroa arrived.

I had no idea that Joe was refering to his personal situation, which I can relate to. It's tough Joe, I know. Living off of bees has not been easy and even though I started 10 years before varroa arrived I was on the front lines in a number of ways when tracheal and varroa first showed up and I have experienced all aspects of that History.

So Joe, thanks for apologizing. That shows your character in a good light.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

The question was "Is Beekeeping broke?", to me that implies the people keeping bees and how they are operating. I don't see where the question was whether or not we need researchers and/or scientists.
Yes there are problems with hive health as there has been in the past and will be in the future. We need the researchers to look into these problems and hopefully find solutions that we can then apply to our bees. I feel that the beekeeping community has been doing that and that is why I say beekeeping isn't broke.
There are many seminars, field days, conventions and the like being held to promote the latest research in nutrition, IPM, queen rearing etc. These are presented by both local and national beekeeping organizations because they understand the need to keep up with current practices.
So Joes bees, don't give up on your dreams because we do need researchers who love bees!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i'm proud of ya'll!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Joes_bees said:


> Making me second guess a decision I'll be making next spring that many in my life already view as foolish.


If you are talking about career decisions you should do what makes you happy as long as you have already attained the education (sheep skin). You can always fall back on your education to follow another path. No one can see things as you do. The only caution I will mention is you have to live with what you decide.
I graduated in the 70's with a technical degree, oil embargo and the economy much the same as it is today. I feel for you but if you follow your passion you will be happy. If you follow someone else's passion you will regret it regardless of how successful you become.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

JD's Bees said:


> The question was "Is Beekeeping broke?", to me that implies the people keeping bees and how they are operating. I don't see where the question was whether or not we need researchers and/or scientists....


 I guess the answer is in the post #1:
"People may argue that *science* and technology have done a lot to hurt beekeeping, but please don't confuse gained knowledge with how people have chose to use it. (I'm not necessarily advocating wires and batteries in hives, just don't hate on research and ideas.)"


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Joes_bees said:


> I'd like to apologize ....


 Very nice! Thank you so much for giving an example of gracious handling of the situation. I really wish you the best! Sergey


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I don't believe I ever wrote that "everything is good" or that everything is fine or okay....


 Mark, could you please clarify your position:

Do you feel that beekeeping in its current state may be improved?

If improvements necessary, do you feel that proper scientific approach could make a difference in your particular situation?

Sergey


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I believe that there is always room for improvement and that the use of science has it's value. I hope that is clear enough.

Isn't there a Scientific Beekeeping Website?

I don't know where the World would be w/ out Science. The PreHistoric Era perhaps? Certainly PreGrecoRoman Era.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Isn't there a Scientific Beekeeping Website?


 Mark, today after thinking I come to idea that beekeeping is a craft and therefore, scientific approach is not applicable to it in many ways. So, I am greatly relieved - I don't need to worry about science at _beesource_ AND I could keep bees as a hobby, which automatically prevents me from the bee-craft guild.


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

Thank you all for your kind words.



Ian said:


> That said, and to the point of your topic, do you feel the same way still, or has your point of view changed? I don't agree with your initial assertion. I wish you would give beekeepers more credit for what we are accomplishing.


After rereading the entire thread I would agree, I sound pretty morbid. It seems beekeeping is on a track of "breaking" and fixing, but I guess that's life and I should lighten up.

The word "broke" was a poor choice for a title as it is very vague and caused a number of different topics to arise in this thread.

Also the term beekeeping can be interpreted multiple ways as we've seen in this thread: the beekeeping industry, typical beekeeping practices, honeybees themselves, and I'm sure there were more.

I apologized early on for a bad first post that wasn't worded well, unfortunately it was too late and this mess of a thread happened.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Joes_bees said:


> ... It seems beekeeping is on a track of "breaking" and fixing,...


 I think it IS broken and it needs to be fixed. It seems to me that many people are working hard in different directions trying to see what is the best approach for bees in our community in 21 century. It is obvious to me that 100+ years old bee-"technology" is outdated and needs to be corrected in the light of new challenges and new, more "natural" approaches in our life. There are many ideas already proposed and many tested successfully. But, I do not feel that bees are safe and protected in this country. These are just my personal thoughts, nothing personal and nothing age-related. Sergey


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

cerezha said:


> But, I do not feel that bees are safe and protected in this country.


Heck, not even _humans _are "safe and protected on this country." The US kills about 35,000 people _just in car accidents _each year. And the PETA folks will say that not enough is being done to protect _any _animal species.

I do expect that bees will be around _long after_ humans learn to synthesize honey from corn.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cerezha said:


> I think it IS broken and it needs to be fixed. It seems to me that many people are working hard in different directions trying to see what is the best approach for bees in our community in 21 century. It is obvious to me that 100+ years old bee-"technology" is outdated and needs to be corrected in the light of new challenges and new, more "natural" approaches in our life. There are many ideas already proposed and many tested successfully. But, I do not feel that bees are safe and protected in this country. These are just my personal thoughts, nothing personal and nothing age-related. Sergey


It isn't broke. It is not any more broke than it has been in the past. What I think is needed is what I consider (probably incorrectly so) a Zen approach. Go w/ the flow. Deal w/ what is infront of you. Check your life attitude and get it straight. We live in a system of life, not outside of it. Personally I probably live more on the edge than any of y'all who don't pay bills from beekeeping. This isn't bragging, it's just what is. My life style is not extravagant, though my house is paid for. And, from where I sit things are good. There I did say it, things are good.

Can they be better? Sure. But, compared to 6 or 7 years ago when colony collapse disorder hit and hit hard and I lost 80 percent of my hives and 33% of all colonies across the Nation died in one year things are on an upward/positive trend.

I don't know what y'all are looking at. Shucks, odfrank, someone who has been on this Forum longer than many of y'all have owned bees is continually collecting more nad more swarms. Where are they coming from? Spontaneous generation?

Beekeeping isn't broke. Y'all need and attitude adjustment and more actual experience beyond your own backyard.

Rant over.

ps: check out my Wrapping Up 2012 Thread and tell me beekeeping is broken.  Peace


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Withiut reading the entire thread, Which I am interested in doing I just don't have time to right now. I will add these thoughts.

Is beekeeping broken? If in fact they could keep bees 100 years ago, produce honey and other products of the hive. What has changed about the bees to make that less possible today?

I don' think the bees has changed. Man has changed. mans goals and expectations have changed.

Look at what happens to the demand for profits when you go from a lone farmer trying to put food on a table to a business model that must support employees equipment and the other mountain of overhead involved. Yet it is still that same old bee being asked to make that sort of increase in demand.
I think it is man, his goals and his expectations that have changed. and they have become completely unreasonable.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> I think it is man, his goals and his expectations that have changed. and they have become completely unreasonable.



Will some computer geek do a search and find examples of photos of apiarys in the Hudson Valley of NY showing home apiaries of 200 colonies. This was not as uncommon as youy might think. They were all over the place and across many States. Michigan comes to mind. If I knew where those early 20th century and late 19th century photos were and I could I would Post them myself.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Will some _computer geek_ do a search and find examples of photos of apiarys in the Hudson Valley of NY showing home apiaries of 200 colonies.


What you seek may not have been uncommon, but photos are not so easy to find. The photos _may _be online, but images in photos are not indexable unless someone has taken the time to add _tags_. However, this site has some very interesting beekeeping short articles published in the 1800s. There are some photos, but not specifically what Mark asked for.

http://agrariannation.blogspot.com/2011/06/bees-honey-1833-1865-1867-1880.html

A newspaper "retrospective" article:
http://www.theithacajournal.com/art...n-Now-Tompkins-County-home-renowned-beekeeper









_W.L. 'LaMar' Coggshall, of Groton, is pictured here in the early 20th century with his two sons in his beeyard. / PHOTO linked from the Ithaca Journal at the link above.

_


sqkcrk said:


> Will some *computer geek* do ...


Mark, I am assuming that term was meant as a _compliment_, and not an _insult_. 

And do you have a problem with icons, _animated _or otherwise? :gh:

_

_


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

On the issue of the elderly, aged or older. I clearly see in effect. IF you are insulted by my opinion that is your responsibility. I accept that I insulted only if I write with intent to insult. otherwise you are to synsative.

We are born, we then spend several years in a period of hyper learning about anything and everything we know about the world. But there is a point that we no longer learn as readily. It is now time to act upon what we know and we become more and more absorbed with the decisions and thought processes needed to act than to learn. This in effect results in an increased reluctance to change.

An example: I got my first banking account about the time Automatic Tellers came into existence. For me they where the norm and I never had any issue in using them. But for my parents. Who at that time where hardly elderly. Had some degree of reluctance and difficulty in getting used to them. While my grand parents had almost a reaction of fear at using them.

Today My grandparents are now gone and my parents are elderly. They neither one have accepted the use of a computer to much degree at all. They both have e-mail accounts and own a computer. but they know nothing about forums or any sort of public interaction of any kind. It is clear to me that they both are aware of a vulnerability they have to unknown threats.

Recency my mother has chosen to get involved in public service. this will require she has a fairly rounded ability to use a computer. It is a completely alien world to her but I am weekly giving her lessons on how to use a computer. understanding the language. understanding the difference in facebook, you tube, forums. web sites etc. I am finding that it is such a radical change in social concepts that she really does not have anything in her life experience to relate it to. She has never really communicated with pictures and video. She has never really lived in the reality of being able to copy and past verbatim something someone wrote or said. She has a very real issue with this whole trailing of of a conversation about something nobody really said anyway. Such as, did Ace really insult anyone? No someone got insulted. but now the conversation is controlled by the issue of how insulting Ace is. Net result, the sensitive little child is disrupting the conversation. Grow a pair and move on.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Earlier this year my neighbor was found dead at his computer. His browser still opened to one of the blogs he frequented. He was 95.
He was also a facebook friend.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Withiut reading the entire thread, Which I am interested in doing I just don't have time to right now.


But you _do have time_ to share your thoughts on the discussion, even though you don't know the full context of that discussion.

Huh.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> What you seek may not have been uncommon, but photos are not so easy to find. The photos _may _be online, but images in photos are not indexable unless someone has taken the time to add _tags_. However, this site has some very interesting beekeeping short articles published in the 1800s. There are some photos, but not specifically what Mark asked for.
> 
> http://agrariannation.blogspot.com/2011/06/bees-honey-1833-1865-1867-1880.html
> 
> ...


I used the term geek w/ all the love in my heart that I could muster. I could have used expert, but geek is what came to mind.

I only know how to make two icons.  and  I have nothing against any other icons animated or otherwise.

Thank you, I knew someone could do what I can't. What do I owe you. I like to pay people to do what I can't.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel Y said:


> Grow a pair and move on.



Who are you talking to?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

What a different time! The guy and his kids are all dressed up....lookin' ready for church...and he's workin' his hives. Do you think they may have really been just posing for a photo....a pretty rare thing in those days?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

With the state of photography then they may well have been posing, which doesn't mean they weren't working hives w/ bees in them. Cogshall's are famous beekeepers from days past.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Go w/ the flow. Deal w/ what is infront of you. Check your life attitude and get it straight. We live in a system of life, not outside of it. Personally I probably live more on the edge than any of y'all who don't pay bills from beekeeping. This isn't bragging, it's just what is. My life style is not extravagant, though my house is paid for. And, from where I sit things are good. There I did say it, things are good.

Couldnt agree more,
I have been doing a search on YouTube viewing Almond pollination vids and also viewing some package bee producer vids. If anyone wants to point out a challenge, they should look at these guys and how they manage their ops. For all the negative news coming out of California and southern Florida and Georgia, youd think beekeeping would of been long time lost. In fact, ask anyone none beekeeper on the street and they think all the bees are dead. 
Quite the opposite,


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

beemandan said:


> Earlier this year my neighbor was found dead at his computer. His browser still opened to one of the blogs he frequented. He was 95.


Exactly how I want to go. Researching some _dynamite _quotes on Beesource. I sure hope I can muster up the strength to click the _POST _button before I expire. 




beemandan said:


> He was also a facebook friend.


Facebook will expire long before I do! :banana:


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Grow a pair and move on.





sqkcrk said:


> Who are you talking to?


The answer to Mark's question should be obvious. _Daniel Y_ talks to himself frequently.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> which doesn't mean they weren't working hives w/ bees in them.


No, but they probably couldn't just drop those clothes off at the corner drycleaners....it must have been quite a chore to keep nice clothes...nice.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Facebook will expire long before I do!


I hope you are right.....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> The answer to Mark's question should be obvious. _Daniel Y_ talks to himself frequently.


Du'oh!! Headslap icon.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I only know how to make two icons.  and  I have nothing against any other icons animated or otherwise.


Some may consider this response "_colon _ot _colon_" t: (see below for explanation of the "_colon _ot _colon_")


I am assuming that you do most of your posting from some kind of smart phone, and it doesn't handle the pop-up icon window gracefully that I see a PC. Icons can be generated by clicking on them from the icon display, or alternatively, you can just use the keyboard shortcut. You probably use a keyboard shortcut of a "_colon_", followed by a "_right parenthesis_" to get the happy face 

In the same manner you can use a shortcut of "_colon _eek _colon_" to get  Ignore the quote marks, and spaces, they are just there for readability.

"_colon _lpf _colon_" for :lpf:

And similarly "_colon _ws _colon_" for :ws:

You can find the codes for all icons by holding the cursor over the icons when in a "compose" window while using a PC and Beesource. (_Mouseover _is the term for this that the _geeks _use. "_colon _lookout _colon_" :lookout


sqkcrk said:


> What do I owe you. I like to pay people to do what I can't.


The only payment I request is to use one or more icons in each reply to any _Acebird _post. "_colon _gh _colon_" :gh:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

cerezha said:


> I could keep bees as a hobby, which automatically prevents me from the bee-craft guild.


I think of a hobby as a craft and an industry as the real thing.:scratch:


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

I don't treat my hives unless I need to. (I test for mites before I treat)
Seems my hives reach a Varroa level that needs to be treated within 2 years.

I caught a swarm this year. It too had about 25 mites per 300 bees. According to the research at a nearby university it is unlikely it would make it through the winter without some intervention by me (be it a natural approach or chemical).

I have a very small sample size (only 3 hives currently). However, when I attend my local beekeeping meetings, this sentiment is not the minority.

In my opinion an organism that needs treatment/intervention by people is broken.

Like I said the way I posed the original question, there are many ways to interpret. Hopefully this clarifies how I've been thinking about it and you can add your positive responses to my sample size and cheer me up.


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

I walked away after posting that and had a few epiphanies I'll try to put into words.

Bees were brought over from Europe to do a job. To pollinate and support our agriculture so that we could feed our nation. So as long as they do it, it's not really broken. If we are not around to manage bees and they were to all die... well they weren't suppose to be here anyways and they don't have a nation to feed.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joes_bees said:


> Bees were brought over from Europe to do a job. To pollinate and support our agriculture so that we could feed our nation.



Maybe you found something I didn't when I researched 18th Century Beekeeping while working at Colonial Williamsburg in Williamsburg, VA, the second Colonial Capital of Virginia. I found no indication that bees were brought here to pollinate crops other than the fact that many of the fruit trees and vegetables not native to this country were brought here at the same time as the honeybees.

Whereas, a report of the Gross Colonial Product of Virginia in the early 18th Century included "tonnes of beeswax", a product of 18th Century beekeeping. So, my conclusion is that there were a number of reasons for bringing beehives to VA from England and the primary source of income from beehives for the colony, a business venture, was from beeswax and not pollination. At least I could find no evidence.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I did some homework, asking a number of persons from various aspects of beekeeping from across the Nation, many of them name you would recognize, "How would you characterize ther state of beekeeping today?" I didn't ask permission to attribute their comments to them by name. So, trust me (?).

"Healthy prices, sick or about to be sick bees, it is a risky business when you add varroa [and] viruses into the equation."

"...beekeeping is more challenging w/ mites, nosema, habitat disruption, altered crops that may have lost either nutritional value, attractivesness to bees or both, and constant pressure to migratory bees."

"much of the current plight of beekeeping is the lack ... of beekeepers."

"the sudden appearance of lots of small [scale] beekeepers and new clubs has some of the old timers a bit conflicted."

"some researchers suffer from CCD, Cash Cow Disease."

"same ol', same ol" No big changes. Lots of Challenges. Still making honey and money."


"The state of beekeeping? Where are our new researchers?"


I was hoping to find amongst those I asked some validation of my opinion. Some comments bouy that up and others don't. I think it safe to say that an answer to Joes_bees' question is more complex and intricate than may be apparent.

The state of beekeeping ceertainly is something to be concerned about, but not to the point of making one freeze in ones tracks or give up. I see too much success out around the State of NY and in other States.

Hang in there Joe. It'll get better.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Acebird said:


> I think of a hobby as a craft and an industry as the real thing.:scratch:


I think you right. But this is a paradox of beekeeping to me - industry uses the same (similar) approach as a craftsmen. This is exact reason why I think beekeeping is "broken", because industrial part is still sometime uses ancient approaches, which is a contradiction to reality. I am not criticizing, I just observing....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Can you illustrate what you have observed?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Joes_bees said:


> Bees were brought over from Europe to do a job. To pollinate and support our agriculture so that we could feed our nation.


From what I've read, bees were brought over to provide honey......basically, the only sweetener at the time. It was not unusual for colonists to have a hive or two in their yard. Using them for pollination came later.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>In my opinion an organism that needs treatment/intervention by people is broken.

then are we as people broken also? 
I dont think so, treatments and intervention with medicine has provided alot of benefit to the world 
same goes with the animals we keep


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

I think my point is still valid even though I did not have the right reason for importing European honeybees.

My plan was to become a researcher, I wasn't going to freeze in my tracks and I hope my comments didn't cause other people to. Now I just have to make sure I don't get infected with CCD


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Can you illustrate what you have observed?


 Sure, with pleasure, but remember my original statement: " I think beekeeping is "broken", because industrial part is still sometime uses ancient approaches, which is a contradiction to reality. "
I am a member of oldest in LA beekeepers organization. The organization is basically a "department" of commercial apiary. They have beekeeping classes in the commercial apiary. Owner of apiary was a main instructor in the classes (nice guy). As a new to the bees, I took all their classes (at commercial apiary) and visited their meetings. So, what I am presenting is my own understanding and interpretation what was happened. Well, 70% classes were about using all kind of nasty chemicals to treat the bees. Keep in mind, it was introductory classes for beginners. At the meetings we also were heavily instructed to use all kind chemical treatments - I did not remember exactly because it was overwhelming for the beginner. Also, we were encouraged to make a purchases through commercial apiary. In September meeting, we were instructed to treat bees with ***** (put your favorite chemical here) until December! When I asked their opinion regarding protective behavior of my bees, the answer was - re-queen immediately (and buy Queen from the apiary). Understand me correctly - I was not forced to buy from the apiary, but it was heavily suggested... So, I decided to follow my own instinct and I did everything opposite to what "experts" suggested - I never used ANY treatments and I never re-queen. My bees are extremely prolific. They grow to 6 mediums high and I collected approximately 30 kilos of honey from one hive leaving to them plenty of honey, not SYRUP (they NEVER taste the syrup). They swarmed beautifully and we have two great, very prolific hives. The bottom line is that my "modern" approach based on extensive studying the subject in the books and on the internet appeared to be better (to me) than "commercial" approach they presented in the classes and at the meetings. If approach (system) did not work for you (me)? How you call it?

I feel very comfortable to call system "broken" if it does not provide any useful function *to me*. It's like a car - it may be great car, but if it does not function - one could call it "broken", right? "Broken" - just brings attention to the fact, that something needs to be repaired, nothing else. _Added: Some virtual scene come in mind - one person is trying to sell old car to another. One: "it is broken!". Other: "it's OK, it's OK; do not worry, it still could move!"_

I think, Mark that you are mixing up a few things:
- look at the title - it is about beekeeping broken, not *YOUR* apiary or your business;
- you extrapolate your own feelings and success in managing YOUR business on the whole system.
- increased (if any) production of honey and money is not necessary an indication of the well-being. Sometime, the machinery is so massive (indication of old days, now everything China-made flimsy) that it would continue for while even if some part is broken... the concern of some people what if this monster will collapse? Apparently, your opinion is that the "monster" will not collapse and will continue._Added: Some analogy come in mind - Soviet Union were "broken" for good 40 years before it actually collapsed... but many people just refused to accept this fact EVEN after it was already collapsed!_
- there is nothing bad about "broken" - it just indicates that it may be repaired! To my ESL taste, this wording is reasonable and not offensive to anybody.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I did some homework, asking a number of persons from various aspects of beekeeping from across the Nation... "How would you characterize ther state of beekeeping today?"


 It looks like the majority is not such optimistic as you.... sorry. Sergey


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

wow sergey. i can see why you think it's 'broken'.

maybe some of the others will chime in, but i haven't seen anything like what you are describing in my area.

there are some differences in approach to what you need to know and practice for a large commercial operation vs. a smaller hobbiest or sideliner operation.

randy oliver is crediting the smaller operations with coming up with some good advances. i guess it's because we have time to experiment more with our bees.

good thing you found beesource.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cerezha said:


> I think, Mark that you are mixing up a few things:
> - look at the title - it is about beekeeping broken, not *YOUR* apiary or your business;
> - you extrapolate your own feelings and success in managing YOUR business on the whole system.
> - increased (if any) production of honey and money is not necessary an indication of the well-being. Sometime, the machinery is so massive (indication of old days, now everything China-made flimsy) that it would continue for while even is some part is broken... the concern of some people what if this monster will collapse? Apparently, your opinion is that the "monster" will not collapse and will continue.
> - there is nothing bad about "broken" - it just indicates that it may be repaired! To my ESL taste, this wording is reasonable and not offensive to anybody.


Thanks Sergey. That explains a lot.

To your last set of points, partially true and true w/ you to of course. But, I do see what goes on in other peoples outfits, working w/ a few otyher commercial beekeepers. Also knowing a number of small scale beekeepers who have been coming to our new bee club. I keep my eyes and ears open on beesource andf other venues, such as the two major national bee magazines.

I agree about the Thread Title, but we later found out it was about Joe's apiary and his experiences. Not exclusively, but quite a bit.

Well, calling it a monster is your word, not mine. My point was that we will not keep bees into extinction. Tell Michael Palmer that his production is not an indication of success. His success comes from his work and knowledge of how to keep bees. His crops are amongst the largest in the State of NY and VT both. I dare say his pocket book is probably healthy also.

If you did not make a sizeable amount of money as a Scientist how would you measure your success as a Scientist? I know money isn't everything and not the only indicator, but it is a means of measure.

As a beekeeper I do know when something is wrong/broken in my apiary and when I was an Inspector in other peoples apiaries. If you are speaking about the industry as a whole being broken, to a certain degree it is in a sense. But there have always been trials to overcome. What's the alternative?

Correct me if I am wrong, but you have two hives and have had them for two years or so? When you were in College, studying what you did, did you look at what you were being taught and tell the instructors and the Scientists w/ many years of experience that thbey were doing it wrong? How did that go?


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

beemandan said:


> He *was* 95. ... He *was *also a facebook friend.


 Facebook is killing now! What else? Anybody know anything about how education kills young men and women? or may be visiting concert-hall with classic music could kill? Be aware, stay in bee-yard and avoid all dangers modern life presents! Russian says - only alive person could die... if you are not alive, you will not die. Be healthy and do not spent too much time in front of computer, in university, concert hall, you name it! be alive if you could
Sergey


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Were I a whiner I could whine louder than all of y'all. But I choose not toi whine, I choose to shine.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> ....good thing you found beesource.


 yes, many thanks everyone for your help and support! I think, beesource is a great resource for people like myself. Sergey


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

But not your only resource I hope.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>>Russian says - only alive person could die...

i like this saying sergey. it reminds me of a line from a jimmy buffet song:

"i'd rather die while i'm living than try to live when i'm dead.

and to mark's point about whining, and solomon has recently made the same point,

it is easier to point out flaws than it is to offer up solutions.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Mark, you make a really great post! I'll incorporate my comments into your post if you do not mind.

To your last set of points, partially true and true w/ you to of course. But, I do see what goes on in other peoples outfits, working w/ a few otyher commercial beekeepers. Also knowing a number of small scale beekeepers who have been coming to our new bee club. I keep my eyes and ears open on beesource andf other venues, such as the two major national bee magazines. *==> I think, I am not very clear in my ESL - I was talking about the whole beekeeping system, not about particular small or large enterprise.*

I agree about the Thread Title, but we later found out it was about Joe's apiary and his experiences. Not exclusively, but quite a bit. *==> I interpret it in my own way as probably many others did.*

Well, calling it a monster is your word, not mine. *==> Sorry, my ESL - "monster" just by size, nothing else!*

My point was that we will not keep bees into extinction. *==> I agree. Nobody wants to eliminate bees. I am talking about approaches, which emerged relatively recently alone with "natural" movement. In particular, I am talking about approaches, which provides to bees the environment closer to their natural habitat. *

Tell Michael Palmer that his production is not an indication of success. * ==> Not to me. I do not measure success in $$. *
His success comes from his work and knowledge of how to keep bees. * ==> I respect somebody's efforts as long as it does not interfere with community interests and it does not affect me in negative way.*
His crops are amongst the largest in the State of NY and VT both. I dare say his pocket book is probably healthy also. * I think this is a big problem. I strongly believe that smaller apiaries close to natural conditions are better way to go. I do not care about somebody's "pocket books". *

If you did not make a sizeable amount of money as a Scientist how would you measure your success as a Scientist? I know money isn't everything and not the only indicator, but it is a means of measure. * ==> Absolutely not true! As a matter a fact, many Nobel Prize Laureates were nearly in poverty before the prize. One great mathematician in interview says that he is very happy to accept Nobel Prize because "now I could have some money for my retirement". Sorry - no links here.*

As a beekeeper I do know when something is wrong/broken in my apiary and when I was an Inspector in other peoples apiaries. If you are speaking about the industry as a whole being broken, to a certain degree it is in a sense. * ==> Yes, I am speaking as a whole. Again - I am not criticizing, I just feel than many things may be improved.*

But there have always been trials to overcome. * ==> it is "stony age" approach... sorry*

What's the alternative? * ==> I guess to be more open to "new" ideas, new people, new approaches. Not to be in denial to any changes... *

Correct me if I am wrong, but you have two hives and have had them for two years or so? *==> Yes, but, keep in mind, I am a quick learner by profession. My 57 old already declining brain is working probably 50x quicker than somebody's else. No personal offense, it is just physiology... but I am horrible at any sport, newer won... *

When you were in College, studying what you did, did you look at what you were being taught and tell the instructors and the Scientists w/ many years of experience that thbey were doing it wrong? How did that go? * ==> this is actually great question! You need to remember that I am from different culture. In Russia we have saying that student MUST be better than a teacher. It is common to be very proud of student who ask tough question and challenge the teacher. In fact, I was notorious for that. In school, we had a battle with chemistry teacher all the time - I studied 10x more at home to prepare to her a really "tough" question - all my schoolmates love it because it effectively cancelled the class (me and teacher were busy discussing the issue and class had a nice entertainment). Chemistry teacher ended up letting me to teach the class (and she supervised), THAN my schoolmates hated me, but it was too late... school was over. I love that teacher and she loves me! She was a really great teacher. At University, professors basically provoke students for questions. If you did not ask very complicated question - you would never be A+ student. Now, if student do not challenge me, this student is so-so to me... brain need exercise all time. *


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> But not your only resource I hope.


 Sure, the whole Internet is at the tips of my fingers! Also, I must mention this earlier - I find that beekeepers are amusing people, really great! I am trying to learn from all sources available. And bees, yes, I am learning from my girls, how i forgot?


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> ...and to mark's point about whining, and solomon has recently made the same point, it is easier to point out flaws than it is to offer up solutions.


 True. It is bad if you have such impression from my posts.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

no such impression sergey. 

i haven't been keeping up with all that has been said in this thread, and i was responding to mark's comment on 'whining'.

my comment was as much for myself as for anyone else.

i am first generation in america, my family came here from macedonia.


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> If you did not make a sizeable amount of money as a Scientist how would you measure your success as a Scientist? I know money isn't everything and not the only indicator, but it is a means of measure.


There's another thing I guess I just have to agree to disagree with you about. I currently work with a lot of people who measure success by money. 



sqkcrk said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but you have two hives and have had them for two years or so? When you were in College, studying what you did, did you look at what you were being taught and tell the instructors and the Scientists w/ many years of experience that thbey were doing it wrong? How did that go?


There has been one summer between now and when I was 16 that I did not have any hives. When I was in college lets just say I was practicing minimal interference beekeeping.

I did ask a lot of questions, point out mistakes in text books, and argue things that didn't make sense to me throughout my education, and for the most part teachers and professors really liked me. I think in many cases they were happy to see someone's wheels turning. If the next generation doesn't ask you to explain yourself how will they ever know why you came to that conclusion? That's why I'm hesitant when someone's reason is "because I've kept 700 hive and was an inspector." Those credentials do give your opinion credibility and imply what you are doing is correct. But it does nothing to tell me why it is correct.

A fundamental understanding of why something works is necessary to improve without losing ground.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

no such impression sergey. ==> thank you!

my comment was as much for myself as for anyone else. "it is easier to point out flaws than it is to offer up solutions. "==> absolutely agree, we all need to remember this! Russians says: One could see a tiny particle in the eye of other, but could not sense the log in his own eye. We should start from our-self,remove log from our eyes and than point to the particle in somebody else...

i am first generation in america, my family came here from macedonia. ==> I am from Russia, hello!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>>Russians says: One could see a tiny particle in the eye of other, but could not sense the log in his own eye. 

it's a good saying sergery. it comes from Jesus of the bible. (luke 6:42)


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> >>Russians says: One could see a tiny particle in the eye of other, but could not sense the log in his own eye.
> 
> it's a good saying sergery. it comes from Jesus of the bible. (luke 6:42)


Good Lord, don't tell me Jesus was a Russian.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> >>Russians says: One could see a tiny particle in the eye of other, but could not sense the log in his own eye.
> 
> it's a good saying sergery. it comes from Jesus of the bible. (luke 6:42)


As a person who has spent time in a pit pulling a pitsaw I know the origin of the saying and you can attribute it to Jesus, but I imagine he may actually not have said that himself. That could be a King James Version addition. I'm not sure about whether boards sawn from logs w/ blades of iron and steel were arounds in Jesus's time. I'll have to look that up.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

As in Beekeeping, I would say almost all of farming is broken, broken by necessity. We humans keep making more and more humans, more and more humans need more and more food and more and more food, at least for now, means more and more monoculture farming practices which operate in direct contratdiction to the laws of nature. Don't hate the system that feeds the world, work to make it better, safer, more sustainable. A new/old system of Farming is making a comeback - it's called the sustainable farm or when I was growing up, the family farm. We have a long way to go but I don't beleive the world can continue to shift from and agrarian culture and continue to feed the growing population, I think we will develop a road long term to better sustainability through choice or necessitity.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thanks for that point of view mark. good teachers uses examples of things their students are familar with and create allegories or parables that allow the student to grasp a deeper meaning.

from time to time throughout history there have been those who have been able to impart wisdom that allow us to see past the obvious.

here's one thing i feel is broken in the world of beekeeping. it seems that there has been a lot of time and energy spent worrying about varroa, and even more time and energy arguing about what to do about it.

not that we, and most importantly the bees, (especially feral bees), haven't gradually made some progress there, but.....

nosema looks to me to be something that should get a little more attention than it has.

a well trained and very experienced scientist beekeeper refers to nosema as the 'smoldering epidemic'.

'raises hand'

what if it turned out to be that 85% of our dead outs are nosema related?

isn't it true that nosema has been linked to ccd?

are we testing for nosema as often as we should?

what can we do, and what should we not do if the majority of colony collapsed are from nosema?


is beekeeping broke? nawwww.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I have had the chance to ask a number of people what my various nosema counts mean and many of those people either have no definitive answer or say that it looks like I aught to treat, just to be sure. Not satisfying answers to me. So I err on the side of not wasting time, money, and labor doing something which IO can see no positive results from. Unlike applying a mite treatment and seeing dead mites and colonys that survive the Winter.

Nosema and its effects are still somewhat a mystery to many.

If anyone tells you they know what is causing CCD (the cause of 5 out of 30% Winterloss) they are either lying to you or themselves or both. If we beekeepers effectively addressed the things we can control which cause Winterloss then CCD would be a minor unpleasantness.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

cerezha said:


> It is common to be very proud of student who ask tough question and challenge the teacher. In fact, I was notorious for that. In school, we had a battle with chemistry teacher all the time - I studied 10x more at home to prepare to her a really "tough" question - all my schoolmates love it because it effectively cancelled the class (me and teacher were busy discussing the issue and class had a nice entertainment). Chemistry teacher ended up letting me to teach the class (and she supervised), THAN my schoolmates hated me, but it was too late... school was over. I love that teacher and she loves me! She was a really great teacher. At University, professors basically provoke students for questions. If you did not ask very complicated question - you would never be A+ student. Now, if student do not challenge me, this student is so-so to me... brain need exercise all time. [/B]


I am glad you came back with this sergy. I don't think most people realize how fast you can lean when you challenge the expert. I think when it come to measure how a teacher accepts a challenge from a student measures whether the teacher is good or bad. It is definitely not about money.
The students that are looking for entertainment find a way. The students that are looking for enlightenment stay engrossed.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

mark, thanks again for that excellent response. i see you as especially qualified to answer the question as to how much or how little the is the consideration of nosema in the real world of beekeeping. you tend to confirm my suspicion that is may be less than it deserves. (an educated 'hunch")

for the record, i did not say or imply that nosema causes ccd. my understanding is that ccd is linked statistically with significance to nosema, and has been identified as a probable co-factor.

sergey, believe it or not, (raises hand), i was the one asking most of the questions, sometimes to the audible groaning of my fellow classmates.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I recall a time when in training we had to sit thru a number of lectures so I took some quilt pieces I was making to help the time pass. Figuring it would be less intrusive than snoring. But the powers that be didn't see it that way, they thought it disrespectful So, I started asking questions. I asked one lecturer why he thought a blacksmith was so necassary on a tobacco plantation and he said to make the barrels for the shipping of tobacco. Hogshead barrels for tobacco are made w/ ash sapling hoops I pointed out. He told me to go back to my quilt piece making, not in so many words.

I also recall the other people in the class didn't like me asking questions because it meant we would have to be there longer.

Didn't mean to imply you were saying you knew. Just stating my opinion and one agreed to by others I know. Many things coexist and have no detrimental effects.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>>Didn't mean to imply you were saying you knew. Just stating my opinion and one agreed to by others I know. Many things coexist and have no detrimental effects. 


thanks mark, i didn't think you your challanging what i said, and i agree with you and others on that.

i also agree with your statement than many things coexist without detrimental effects in the bee colony, some 8000 from what i read.

but there are some which are detrimental, and associated with collapse. i am challanged to understand more about nosema. i've got some homework to do.


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> If anyone tells you they know what is causing CCD (the cause of 5 out of 30% Winterloss) they are either lying to you or themselves or both.


Now you are starting to sound a little pessimistic?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Realist. I have talked to a number of well known, intelligent beekeepers and researchers and they tell me they don't know. They have suspects and they know what doesn't cause it. But they haven't found enuf things found incommon in the supposedly CCD killed hives.

Maryanne Frazier says it isn't one thing that it is the culmination of all the things which have happened since varroa arrived here including whatr beekeepers have done to theiur hives, how modern agricultiure has changed (no or fewer hedge rows), and the over use of pesticides in the lawncare industry. But, let me repeat, but, there is no one reason, no smoking gun and worse off, no silver bullet.

That's not pessimism, thems the fax as I see them. I don't think that's a speck of saw dust in my eye, but I could be wrong. Can anyone see it and help me get it out?


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

I agree, I have read and heard the same things, it's not a single cause. Your statements implies nobody is going to figure out what causes CCD because there is more than one cause. It's very hard to find causes by trial and error when there are multiple variables involved. When your intelligent beekeepers and researchers tell you they figured out what causes CCD will you believe them?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joes_bees said:


> When your intelligent beekeepers and researchers tell you they figured out what causes CCD will you believe them?



Those who I have faith are worthy of trust and belief. But I will still want some reason to believe beyond sayso. Trust but verify. But, it doesn't much matter if I believe someone if what they say is true and accurate. If it is it will become evident.


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## Ramona (Apr 26, 2008)

I have laughed so much during this thread...not at anyone just at the funny way all the parallel posts are interweaving and all the interesting historical themes, political, religious, everything! Am loving all the personality that has come through the posts as well...has been feeling like being at a really good party where you hear a whole bunch of interesting/funny conversation going on around you and you know at the end of the party you'll have a lot to talk about on the car ride home.

Mark, what is it with guy beekeepers and quilting? I have never heard you mention this before! There is a guy in our club who also quilts but we knew him as a beekeeper for 10 years before we found out that not only does he quilbt but has an entire floor or his house for a studio...his wife had her own quilting studio on another floor....she wasn't a beekeeper.

Ramona


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ramona said:


> Mark, what is it with guy beekeepers and quilting? I have never heard you mention this before! There is a guy in our club who also quilts but we knew him as a beekeeper for 10 years before we found out that not only does he quilbt but has an entire floor or his house for a studio...his wife had her own quilting studio on another floor....she wasn't a beekeeper.
> 
> Ramona


I'm glad you noticed and asked Ramona. I don't know. 

My wife was teaching a quilting class under the local Williamsburg City Recreational Department, so I tool the class. I haven't sewn much since, but I used to embroider when I was a teenager. So I was hand sewing my quilt peices while listening to lectures. Those sexist pigs were insulted by my quilting, supposedly not paying attention, yet women commonly knit while at Church or watching movies or all sorts of things, klickety klacking knitting needles. Who knew how loud and distracting silent sewing was so distracting.

I'm glad we could entertain you.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I'll be moving a bunch of posts to TG.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Barry said:


> I'll be moving a bunch of posts to TG.


not pertaining to beekeeping, but nice discussion none less.

how does tail gater work barry?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?283-Enter-At-Your-Own-Risk!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks barry, not just for the reply, but for keeping beesource going.

i'll be sending you an email requesting access to tg per instructions on the link above.

how seriously should i take 'poster beware'?

am i finally going to find out what people *really* think about me?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Tg is the Beesour e equivalent to taking it outside. I thought about going there once but only briefly. Decided it was one of those places my Mom warned me to stay away from.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

yikes! that bad huh? 

beesource has been my first and only foray into social media. i don't facebook, youtube, ect.

it's interesting. i feel like i have made friends here, and learned a heck of a lot about beekeeping.

jim, if i get hopelessly trapped in tg and need rescue, can i count on you to get me out?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

squarepeg said:


> yikes! that bad huh?
> 
> beesource has been my first and only foray into social media. i don't facebook, youtube, ect.


TG is probably the most literate place on BeeSource. TG is not there for us to make friends.... but seems like we do anyway. Just come prepared to defend your argument... no one is going to insult you... it is quite different than it used to be.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thanks for that heads up herb.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

hpm08161947 said:


> TG is probably the most literate place on BeeSource.,.. no one is going to insult you... it is quite different than it used to be.


It must have changed since my last visit. I came and left....and am not likely to return.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Squarepeg: You are on your own, perhaps Barry can throw you a lifeline. They occasionally send people like Herb out on recruiting sorties.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thanks anyway jim, i understand. if you don't see me post for a few days, at least call 911.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> They occasionally send people like Herb out on recruiting sorties.


Come on in Peg... we need fresh ideas... or is that fresh meat...


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

hpm08161947 said:


> Come on in Peg... we need fresh ideas... or is that fresh meat...



thanks herb, i'll choose my battles carefully.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Barry said:


> I'll be moving a bunch of posts to TG.


He's afraid of what I'll have to say about quilting.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No one who gains access to TG is forced to participate and you won't even see anything listed on Today's Posts or anywhere, unless you have Posted on a TG THread. You have to go to TG to see if a new THread has appeared there. It has always been something someone would have to open to see what's going on, just like any other Thread or Forum, which is why I don't understand why people are so threatened or intimidated by TG.

squarepeg, you don't have to go to Tailgater to find out that no one likes you.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> squarepeg, you don't have to go to Tailgater to find out that no one likes you.


 thanks mark, and just when i was holding out hope that maybe that's where they all were!

you are correct about tg not showing up on the regular list when you look at 'what's new'. i just created a new 'favorites' button on my browser.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Wow turned this thread into a chat room.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Wow turned this thread into a chat room.


It looks more to me as though it has run its course. Until you posted...it had been a couple of days since anyone bothered and since yours (and mine) are both off topic...I'm thinkin' this horse is dead.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

beemandan said:


> I'm thinkin' this horse is dead.


 Broken, broken, broken! Let's imagine that we are in power to change everything so, both bees and humans could benefit from alliance. What you would do differently if money/space/government is not an issue?


What I would do? Let me think.
- I would probably regulate bees as a wild animals. I would grant them rights to swarm and occupy available household. If bees choose the place, landlord must provide decent living conditions for the bees. Landlord has the right for 50% of honey, 100% propolis and wax.
- I would also recognize bees as a national "living monument". Bees worked very hard helping early emigrants to survive. They needs to be acknowledged at Thanksgiving tables.
- We should create a "national bee". Not EHB but American HB,* A*HB. It is not patriotic to relay on old European emigrants, or even worse - Brazilian ones! 
- I think, bee needs to be represented more prominently in official symbols. For instance, official seal of City of Santa Monica contains flying airplanes - I would replace airplanes on bees - it would represent SMs desire to be "green" better than smelly lead-fueled outdated aircraft!
- OK, this is controversial: I would create the Bee-Institute in similar way how NIH established. It supposed to create reasonable policies for the bees and beekeepers. I am not sure how it would work since all other "institutes" are not very efficient... broken...


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Is Beekeeping broke? Nah, just some of ones who jump too fast without capital! (cash flow).......


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