# I lost my hive I think to Colony Collapse Disorder I need some experienced beekeepers



## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Was the queen still in the hive?


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

could be. i'm surprised to hear of eggs and brood this time of year for that far north. when was the last time you know there were bees in the hive?


----------



## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

How did you manage your varroa mites?


----------



## izak (Nov 24, 2014)

I Didn't manage varroa mite


----------



## izak (Nov 24, 2014)

About August


----------



## izak (Nov 24, 2014)

No the queen wasn't in the hive when I checked. We had to re-queen the hive 2 weeks after we set up the hive, at the last time we checked before they left they were only concentrating on 4 frames in the bottom box and that was it


----------



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

You put some treatment for varroa? When , what and how?


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

izak said:


> About August


i noticed that portland's forecast high temp today is 21 degrees. my guess is that the bees have been long gone and what eggs and brood you found were frozen remains. they may have absconded earlier in the season from anything that would have made the hive 'unbearable' to them, ants, mites, robbing bees, chemicals, ect. was all of the honey gone too?


----------



## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

izak said:


> I Didn't manage varroa mite


well that is the answer... I repeat, that is the answer period.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

from wikepedia:

"Signs and symptoms

In collapsed colonies, CCD is suspected when a complete absence of adult bees is found in colonies, with no or little buildup of dead bees in the hive or in front of the hive. A colony which has collapsed from CCD is generally characterized by all of these conditions occurring simultaneously:[24]

Presence of capped brood in abandoned colonies: Bees normally will not abandon a hive until the capped brood have all hatched.
Presence of food stores, both honey and bee pollen:
which are not immediately robbed by other bees
which when attacked by hive pests such as wax moth and small hive beetle, the attack is noticeably delayed
Presence of the queen bee: If the queen is not present, the hive died because it was queenless, which is not considered CCD.

Precursor symptoms that may arise before the final colony collapse are:

Insufficient workforce to maintain the brood that is present
Workforce seems to be made up of young adult bees
The colony members are reluctant to consume provided feed, such as sugar syrup and protein supplement."


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

try uncapping some of the left over brood and look for signs of disease. also look for mite frass or guanine in the empty brood cells. finding these things would suggest mites were involved.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

TalonRedding said:


> Mite frass/guanine deposits:
> 
> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/first-year-care-for-your-nuc/


scroll down on the linked page for the photo.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

izak said:


> No the queen wasn't in the hive when I checked. We had to re-queen the hive 2 weeks after we set up the hive, at the last time we checked before they left they were only concentrating on 4 frames in the bottom box and that was it


queen failure is another possibility. do the cappings on the brood that remained looked raised up instead of flat?


----------



## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

There hasn't been a documented case of CCD in the US for a few years. It was mites.


----------



## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

waiting to hear what he finds before I'd make a final judgment. There are several options besides mites


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Gypsi said:


> waiting to hear what he finds before I'd make a final judgment. There are several options besides mites


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

izak said:


> I Didn't manage varroa mite


I knew that reading the title of the post. Take a picture of the capped brood that was left, or and area where brood was, get a nice close up. Small cluster of bees disapearing early winter, is classic mites. They might've shrunk down which cleaned up the mites as the queen shutdown but cluster was too small to maintain broodnest temps and they absconded or robbing pressure drove them out.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

only four frames of bees in august suggests the colony was already weakened well before the fall brood up, plus it was a first year colony and got a brood break from being queenless. i'm thinking the replacement queen was a dud. that along with the fact the other two colonies are still kickin' leaves room for alternate explanations. one would expect most of the mites from the dead out would have found their way into the other two via drifting and robbing and took them down as well. 

varroa is a great guess since it likely is responsible for most losses these days, but i don't think we should assume that it is always mites when untreated colonies collapse. i've only had one loss in four winters that i could confirm was from mites after finding a very high infestation rate, lots of frass, diseased brood, ect. 

the majority of my losses (< 15% four year average) have been from queen failure over the winter resulting in small clusters with laying workers and healthy drone brood in the spring. whether or not my problem with queen longevity is mite related i haven't figured out, but i'm not seeing they typical pms collapse that is often described.

it's not that i don't have mites, a sampling of three out of ten hives in my home yard this fall revealed +/- 10% infestation rates. no losses so far, and we've got a lot of winter to go, but i still have strong cluster roar and adequate stores in all of them.

izak, it's harder to figure out what happened so long after the fact. consider doing more frequent inspections next year making sure your colonies are always queenright and that the brood looks healthy and has a solid pattern. colonies can be stronger or weaker than their neighbors, but if you see a big difference like that it's good to try and figure out why. definitely post some pictures if you can.


----------



## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

squarepeg, just curious but do you think your bees would be alive with the current mite infestation levels if they were in a harsher winter environment?? Looks like your in a zone 7 to me. What happens with the same mite levels in zones 3-5?? Do you think there's any correlation to the damage inflicted by the mites to then have to also go through a harsher winter as the OP in North Dakota???


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

great questions brandy. i honestly don't know exactly what is happening here. my bees are derived from feral tree bees that were collected by my supplier out of the nearby woods over 18 years ago and have been thriving off treatments ever since. we do have moderate weather, very good almost year round forage, and large expanses of wooded areas that taken all together appear to have allowed a rather large treatment free metapopulation of bees to develop resistance and/or establish host-parasite equilibrium over the years.

mike bush has pretty cold winters up there in nebraska and yet has bees surviving season after season off treatments. he describes obtaining the overwintering ability from bringing in the genetics of the feral bees in his area. what is not known about the op's bees is what stock they were derived from.

fwiw, i haven't feed syrup to my bees in over three years, and it's possible that the honey only diet may impart a measure of natural immunity against the viral infections that the mites transmit. as far as specific mite resistant traits go, i do notice allogrooming at the entrances, but have never tested for vsh. we plan to send a few queens to baton rouge next spring so that they may study them and see if it can be determined how they are coping with the mites. i did get mitochondrial dna tests run on them this year and it turns out they have the most common c1 mitotype.


----------



## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Thanks for the reply. Just seems interesting that most that are successful with TF are in the more temperate zones. South, southeast and the west coast. MB talked about losses a few years ago but blamed the losses on being away etc...Strange that no others in the harsher winter environments, zone 3-5 are having success with overwintering when the mites have free access to the bees throughout the year.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

agreed brandy. in my opinion what's lacking is more detailed investigation of those operations in which the bees are demonstrating success off treatments. it may be possible to establish common denominators that could move us forward in our understanding. most of the focus is usually on the bees and/or methods, but it's very possible that the mites/viruses are just less virulent here. hopefully the baton rouge lab will be able to identify how it is that these bees are surviving.

i have had requests for queens by folks in other parts of the country, but it's hard to say if the results will be the same in different climates. i'm just a small sideliner. even the supplier i mentioned would be considered small compared to some, and most of the folks he sells to continue to employ standard management practices. there are about a half dozen or so of us in adjacent counties with this stock not using treatments and not having big losses. it makes sense to start locating some of these bees into the next counties/states and seeing how they do. ultimately they will end up hybridizing with whatever bees are around and i suspect that if there is not a strong contingent of feral survivors in the neighborhood the chances for success would be lessened.


----------



## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

If CCD the queen would still be in the hive, all the honey would remain & robbers won't take it for months.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

correct dan. it appears that even the moths and beetles avoid the hive for awhile. funny how they never identified a causative agent.


----------



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

KQ6AR said:


> all the honey would remain & robbers won't take it for months.


Yes this great little aspect provides food for thought. What is the cause for this avoidance ?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>We went out to the bee yard and my hive had good brood and eggs in the hive and all of the bees where gone and we couldn't find them when we thought they swarmed. What do you think it was. I have no idea what happened and I need experienced beekeeper's help.

Odd to have brood in a hive in December in North Dakota. Also odd the bees are not there. If they died they should be on the bottom board or hauled out front by the bees as they were dying off. Hard to say what happened but they did not die in the hive all of a sudden or you would have a pile of dead bees on the bottom.

>well that is the answer... I repeat, that is the answer period.

Period? Why was there brood in a hive in North Dakota in December? I would be trying to answer that question along with why the bees are now gone. Not dead. Gone. If I had a pile of dead bees on the bottom board this time of years Varroa mites would be my first guess, but I would still look for evidence. Mite feces in the brood cells. Dead mites on the bottom board. But there was not a pile of dead bees. Still it's worth looking for Varroa mite feces in the cells and check the bottom for dead Varroa.

>Strange that no others in the harsher winter environments, zone 3-5 are having success with overwintering when the mites have free access to the bees throughout the year.

No others? I have no idea what you are talking about. I know thousands of treatment free beekeepers who are having success.


----------



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> correct dan. it appears that even the moths and beetles avoid the hive for awhile. funny how they never identified a causative agent.


I 'm just thinking aloud . Two hypotheses :
1 ) bees mark with a pheromone the hive and frames to alert other bees and other insects that food is adulterated ;
2 ) pesticides may take time to degrade up and as such does not happen bees and other insects do not eat adulterated food.


----------



## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Eduardo Gomes said:


> I 'm just thinking aloud . Two hypotheses :
> 1 ) bees mark with a pheromone the hive and frames to alert other bees and other insects that food is adulterated ;
> 2 ) pesticides may take time to degrade up and as such does not happen bees and other insects do not eat adulterated food.


There has never been a credible study linking pesticides to CCD to my knowledge, just speculation in an attempt by some organizations to raise funds.


----------



## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

camero7 said:


> There has never been a credible study linking pesticides to CCD to my knowledge, just speculation in an attempt by some organizations to raise funds.


Mr. Bishop
Yes I agree with you. Is not identified a clear relationship of cause and effect between pesticides and CCD . 
I'm only give myself the freedom to put hypotheses, that does not seem to me absurd based on what we know today. What I find more difficult to understand is how the case in question has not been, to my knowledge, properly investigated.

In this regard I want to say that I think must of my hives have died so far, much was due to attempts to supersued in late summer early fall and another part, less than previous, due to varroa. I guess I never had CCD in my lost hives.


----------

