# lost bees, thinking of giving up top bar



## sambucaro (May 16, 2017)

You all have been a great support. I have had a successful season until now. I am in Chicago. A week ago, we had temperatures dipping into -9. My hive had 2 inch insulation surrounding it, a wind breaker and the bees pretty much closed up the entrance so small I didn't think a mouse guard was needed. Today I check on the hive, as it is 40 degrees. NO movement to come out to poop, nothing. I open up the hive. Mice. I don't even see dead bees, they are just gone. 

I messed up. I cannot get over this. The hole was so small after all their propolis I still can't get over it. 

But where did the bees go? I doubt they left in that weather. Someone said mites. Which I also didn't treat for because it seems near impossible to treat in a top bar hive. I don't even know how to mite count because I have a solid bottom board, nowhere for a sticky board. I don't think mice eat bees, as there was plenty of honey....and I don't know then if the hive was that strong if they couldn't fight the initial mouse off. 

Any theories would be great. I'm so sad.


----------



## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

I've heard of bees absconding for lack of food. Is there any honey at all left in the hive? Maybe they left and the mouse moved in afterwards. 

I suffered fantastic losses my first year and was ready to quit if only to save the bees from suffering. This year so far seems better, so they are teaching me best they can. I feel much better than I did last year, when I was thinking "I can sell all this cr*p on Craig's List and then get drunk" which was not my proudest moment.

Only you can determine if you "get back on that horse" but if you can figure what happened, I think that will make you a better beekeeper next year. If you like it and want to keep doing it, jump back in. The survivor guilt is normal, and can be channeled into determination to do better.

BTW: you said "give up top bar" but I assumed you meant "give up beekeeping". Plenty of Lang folks lose a bunch of hives as well.


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Mice eat bees, not honey. The bees can´t defend themselves if they are clustering. The same could have happened if a woodpecker took them.

I´m very sorry about your experience. Beekeeping is working something which can´t always be controlled because nature has it´s impact too.

It would be very sad if you could not get over it and try again. If you feel better treat. But having a setback is the start of learning something.


----------



## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Willing to bet varroa mites finished off the colony. The mice most likely moved because it was a nice place to live. If you don't control mites all the other things you do will be wasted. Just because you are using a TBH doesn't change proper husbandry. Learn to take care of parasites/ diseases the hive used doesn't change this. I think if you take care of this area you will be successful. I wouldn't give up just yet, don't think you have given yourself a fair chance.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Mice will enter both top bar hives and langstroths, if the bees are not in a postion to defend.

However if bees were eaten by mice there would be plenty of evidence in the form of discarded wings and shells. If there just aren't many bee remains lying around that would point to death by varroa mite associated viruses, and one of the last acts bees dying of this do, is crawl as far away from the hive as they can, it's a self sacrificing thing that bees do to try to save the hive.

TBH's can be treated for mites but fumigant type treatments don't tend to work as well because of all the empty space, strip treatments are best.


----------



## sambucaro (May 16, 2017)

Thank you for the support. I'll get back on the horse. Sometimes learning is not easy!


----------



## Jaljala (Jun 2, 2017)

I was able to treat my TBH in December with OA dribble. I chose a sunny day not too cold in earlier December (temperature 47 F), and gently and as quickly as possible opened the hive, removed one honey comb to get a bit of spare room, then moved each comb by 1/2" and dropped 5ml of the OA/syrup mixture with a syringe (Randy Oliver method) between the 2 bars. The bees were moving a bit but I was able to treat each comb in less than 10 seconds. At the end of the treatment, bees were flying everywhere, but they calmed down and back to the hive quickly. It was sunny so they were able to fly back in easily.
I could see (through observation window) a lot of dead mites on the bottom and sides the days after dribble.
So far my hive is still alive!
Wish you all the best for this season!


----------



## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Treating a top bar hive is difficult but not impossible. Apivar can work well but you have to move the strips occasionally to keep it in the active brood nest. Oxalic vapor also works well but I find it does not move sideways in the hive very well. It will move about 6 bars maximum to the sides from the vaporization site. So if you have a well populated hive, you will need to vaporize from 2 different spots in the hive. Use a 1/2 dose in each spot. Make sure the vaporizer is not pressed up against a piece of comb. Do not use Mite Away Quick Strips. They are not designed for a top bar hive and will probably be too strong a treatment. 

Good luck


----------



## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

It is imperative that you somehow "manage the mites". Multiple ways to do this. For my TBHs, it involves monthly powdered sugar shakes onto each comb with a screened bottom under which the solid IPM board stays in almost all year round with diatomaceous earth on it. That way, the mites fall into the DE and die. Also can't crawl back up to reinfest the bees.


----------



## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

For someone who has lost a hive but has the comb, you are in a great position to jump-start a future package. Likely you would be able to split fairly early too, perhaps even 2 splits a few months apart, just because you have started a hive with drawn comb.

It is more challenging to treat for mites in a top bar hive. I don't think this is said enough. If you are serious about controlling mites, then we have just seen some great advice - apivar if you adjust the position of the strips to match the cluster, OAD, or OAV with the ability to move the wand and do a treatment on either side of a large mass of bees. I have also heard of great results with weekly drone comb removal. It is key to work with a mite-resistant local queen if that is the chosen method.

If you feel that treating is not how you want to beekeep, then plan for 50% losses. Get 4 hives going, you should have 1 by the beginning of next winter. It is possible to plan for losses in order to successfully beekeep.

I am not willing to lose bees to preventable varroa death; but the current way I have been treating is not working. Because the bees build comb to within a beespace of the bottom of the hive, it is impossible to get a wand under the broodcomb without routinely cutting a half inch or so from the bottom of the combs to fit the wand. Not my idea of a good time. 

I will be splitting my 4 (so far) of the 6 that survived high mites and they will be all moving to top bar hives with screened bottom boards. Then I can use the wand where it is needed, and not need to open the hive to treat. I'll be using the screened bottom board to check for the post-treatment mite drop; during a broodless period, like after a split, the mite drop after OAV had better be low or I will have to sock it to them! This is a way to get the benefits of a lang design while keeping the benefits of a top bar design. I'm not going back to Lang double deeps. 

I will also continue doing alcohol washes to check for mites, with some modifications. I have found out the hard way that alcohol wash results are not informative of a developing problem from April-mid July with a hive that has brood. I'll probably just do 1 check in that span. You'll get 1 or so mites for a hive with lowish mites or with climbing mite counts. You'll get higher numbers (like 2) for dangerous infestations; but it is so hard to treat successfully with brood in the hive. So my focus will be treating when there is minimal brood - before the mite counts climb! And I will be checking 2 times a month in July and August - that's when the varroa start getting very dangerously high and that's when I need to be sure any earlier good news on mite counts was for real. 

So I aim to change what didn't work, and the solid bottom and the mite check methods didn't work. So that helps me go forward!


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Just a word about treating TBH's if using apivar strips, I have several friends I've sold bees to who have TBH's. When it comes time to treat a common fear they have had is they do not want to spread the bars apart to fit the strip in between. But what I've done with several people is remove the furthest end bar to make room, then spread some bars apart enough to fit the strip between. It is not enough to bother the bees much but they will propolise the gap. However all that's needed when it's time to remove the strip is to spread the bar apart, or remove it, so that propolis can be scraped off right back to the wood, so the bars can be repositioned snugly again, it's that simple.
Apivar strips have a small hole in the top, a toothpick or similar can be put through that hole so the strip can be hung between the two bars and will not fall.
And as per Dudelt it is very important the strips are placed mid brood nest, where the mites are breeding. If the bees move the brood area you should also move the strips. It's failure to do that, which is responsible for most of the cases when apivar is used but fails to get the job done. Not just in TBH's, but in Langs also.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Oldtimer said:


> TBH's can be treated for mites but fumigant type treatments don't tend to work as well because of all the empty space, strip treatments are best.


I am note sure what empty space your refering to, could you elaborate ? 

To the Op I have had good results with OAD in my top bars when needed.
Drone culling is very easy to do in a KTBH, zip with a hive tool and its gone, along with its mites, not solo method, but some times every little bit helps

SBBs are a poor method of mite montoring so your nothing missing anything. Do alcohol washs


----------



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Trish,
very good post IME.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

msl said:


> I am note sure what empty space your refering to, could you elaborate?


Well a pic is worth a thousand words, this TBH lifecycle vid from beginning to swarming may elucidate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=821uVRAcZ1I


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

ahh got you... thats not how most KTBHs are manged, the volume is redused with a follower board and the combs and the one in the video is overly tall. 

in terms of management the video is akin to installing a package on foundation in a dubble deep with supers on

this is more typical of a KTBH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=ogYGjJCQ-k0
comb wall to wall and top to bottom with a bee space round the edge


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Good vid MSL, I've always admired Sam Comfort as he has an excellent understanding of bees, and although somewhat unconventional has found his own niche to keep bees the way he wants, and earn himself a living.


----------

