# Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?



## borderbeeman

Thanks to Shinbone for prompting me to think about this conundrum. He is of course gloriously wrong, in his assertion that the number of colonies killed in America is less than 10,000,000. My bee-farmer contacts say that even this may be a gross under-estimate because it does not take into account the number of 'splits' which professional beeks have carried out in order to replace dead hives. However, my initial posting was about 'global' bee deaths. Thanks to Shinbone, I would now confidently state that the number of dead colonies within the USA is at least 10 million since 1994.

he may not believe me, as a mere limey of course, but Kim Flottum seems to know a bit about bees. And Bret Adee is the nation's largest beekeeper, is he not? Never mind, I'm sure they are just delusional as well.

What does that actually mean?
America is roughly 3,000 miles wide. Allocating 10,000,000 dead hives along 3,000 miles of road (route 80?) gives the figure of 3,333 hives per mile.

There are 1,760 yards in a mile, so that means you could just about place 2 hives, side by side, for every yard, of every one of those 3,000 miles from New York to San Francisco. 

That's a lot of dead hives.
That's a lot of dead bees.
At 40,000 dead bees per hive, I make it 400 billion dead bees.
which says a lot for the sheer efficiency of neonicotinoids. They sure are good insecticides.



This article from the Washington Examiner really pays reading:








http://washingtonexaminer.com/honey-bee-deaths-reach-40-losses-of-1.6-billion-/article/2523542

*Honey bee deaths hit 40%, losses $1.6 billion*

March 8, 2013 

As the Environmental Protection Agency nears approval of another deadly new pesticide, the honey industry is revealing that the mysterious disease snuffing out bees, blamed in part on advanced pesticides, killed 40% of the nation's hives last year, bringing the total lost to at least $1.61 billion over the last six years.

Industry officials told the EPA this week that honey bee operators who travel the country pollinating the nation's vegetable, nut and fruit crops like apples orchards from Winchester, Va., to Thurmont, Md., are on the verge of extinction and that the further use of new insecticides in the neonicotinoid class could be their end.

_*"We have to conserve bees, we have to value them," pleaded Bret Adee, the nation's largest bee keeper, at an EPA pollinator summit this week. Adee, who lost 60 percent of his hives last year, added, "If we were talking about cows, this would be all over the news."*_​
While the EPA is worried about the plight of the honey bee, responsible for pollinating about 70 percent of the world's organic foods, it is set to OK a new neonicotinoid called Sulfoxaflor, sought by southern growers of grain and cotton.

Several groups have joined beekeepers to beg the EPA to reverse course. The Center for Food Safety, the Pesticide Action Network, American Bird Conservancy and Friends of the Earth, are worried that Sulfoxaflor will kill bees, birds and some saltwater fish. They also claim that it hasn't been tested enough.

The honey industry believes that advanced pesticides are largely responsible for the curse called "colony collapse disorder," in which bees simply stop returning to their hives.

*Kim Flottum*, the editor of Bee Culture, the industry magazine, said that the "trainwreck" occurs mostly in commercial hives where bees are placed near pesticide covered grain fields. _*"The poison is everywhere corn is,"*_ he said.

Adee revealed that the industry has lost *5,650,000* hives over the past seven years. Each hive cost about $200, putting the loss at $1.13 billion. Add in the lost honey production from those hives, and the loss grows to $1.61 billion._ *"The problem is pretty large,"* _said Adee, co-owner of Adee Honey Farms in Bruce, S.D.


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## Coffee_Bee

>>Just how many american bee colonies have been killed by neonics?

I can answer that-

Confirmed deaths by neonics = zero ; sorry, there is no "smoking gun", no true evidence, only conjecture.
News feeds which copy each other and are repeated to infinity doesn't make it real.

That is certainly less than "CCD" = >4% of total colony deaths, another vague and ill defined malady used

This is all pure "side show" and serves as a distraction from real issues.


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## Coffee_Bee

I must add that the poster appears to be trolling the US bee forum, and spamming it multiple times daily, with belief dogma, in an attempt to foist a political view on others and effect legislation in a country in which he does not reside.


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## borderbeeman

Coffee Bee employs the FIFTH strategy in the FIVE DOG DEFENSE: Suppression of dissent; suppression of information; suppression of free speech.

I thought this was an international bee forum, or does the internet only operate within the borders of the USA>
The article above is not 'belief dogma' (that is a religious term), nor is it in any way political.

It is a peer-reviewed scientific paper from one of the most respected bee-researchers in the world, from one of the most reputable universities in the world. 

The problem with neonicotinoids, along with Monsanto, Bayer and Syngenta - is that these are TRANS-NATIONAL issues. Neonics and pesticides are manufactured by Bayer in Germany; by Syngental in Switzerland; by Monsanto in America. These corporations are bigger than many governments in the world.
They have imposed these deadly neurotoxins on America, Europe and the developing world by 'regulatory capture' - taking over the so-called 'regulators' in each country. The EPA has been headed by Monsanto executives for decades now. The same is true in my country.

If anyone has a 'belief dogma' around here, it seems to be you.
I proceed from evidence- from peer-reviewed science and from the eye-witness experience of thousands of beekeepers who have lost millions of colonies. but then, I guess you think Bret Adee is pursuing a 'belief dogma'- along with Steve Ellis from the National Honey Board? And Tom Theobald in Colorado - he's obviously what? A beekeeper campaigning to save his fast disappearing bee business?


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## borderbeeman

I suggest you take that up with the USDA, the EPA and the National Honey Board of America - that is where these official figures came from. I thnk Bret Adee has a pretty good grasp on what is 'real' - after 40 years in the bee business; I think that the owner of the largest bee-business in the entire United States also has a pretty good grasp on reality when he says he lost 60% of his colonies last year and his judgement - from the science, the epidemiology and the post-mortems in the bee lab - is that its the neonics which are the major factor.

Kim Flottum also seems to have his finger on the pulse of American beekeeping; he ought to after his years as Editor of Bee Culture. I suppose his judgement that 'the poison is everywhere that corn grows' - that's just 'conjecture too eh.?

Abraham Lincoln said:
_*"You can fool all the people some of the time
And some of the people all of the time
But you can't fool ALL of the people ALL of the time."*_


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## LSPender

thank you for keeping information from reputable sources in front of the beekeeping community.

one of the biggest challenges with these neonics, that i see for people to accept is that they do not directly kill the insect, meaning, the old paradime was pesticide srayed, bees killed , lots of dead bees on gound in front of hive. Real obvious something happened.

The new thing is they are just gone, suddenly noees in hive, no dead bees as evidence that an event happened, except the beek had looked in hive 2 weeks earlier and it was thriving.

just as a note for people to remember, older pesticides worked in parts per million to kill insects, the new neonics are parts per BILLION.


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## BlueDiamond

Bee numbers will not rebound in Europe as a result of the ban on the neonicotinoid insecticides.

How do we know this? Dr Julian Little from Bayer CropScience points out:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22339191

"We have two controls for all of this. One is France; we've had 
massive restrictions on these products for over 10 years, have
we seen any improvement in bee health? No.
The other control is Australia where neonicotinoids are used in 
exactly the same way as in the UK, same formula same crops 
and they have the healthiest bees on the planet. The difference 
there is they don't have varroa [mites]."

"What we have been upset about is how [lab based] research 
[on the effect of neonicotinoids] has been put into policy. Because 
when you repeat it with real bees, real colonies in real fields, you 
don't see any effect."

"The varroa mite is key," says Dr Little. "If you don't have varroa 
you have healthy bees regardless of whether neonicotinoids 
are used. Varroa and bee health are inextricably linked."


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## D Coates

Yea, but, but, Dr. Little is from big evil Bayer! Anything she says is obviously bought and paid for by Big Ag. Wait, you quoted her therefore you're one of their shills too. It can go on for hours....

Borderbeeman pops up to stur the pot and appears a very lonely person who merely trolls from site to site walking his dogma. When the bee numbers don't rebound as his type claims, this will invariably be blamed on some other convienent Big Ag straw tiger. The environmentalist dogma (it's a religon to some folks) for more governmental control will continue until we're living in mud huts in our own filth, burying our children, but being at one with Mother Earth. (Kumbaya playing in the background for that last part )


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## gmcharlie

Kim Flottam, who writes for Mother earth??? the one that says the biggest cause of CCD is stress on bees??

Free speech yes, funny how a Brit who thinks we have screwed the world wants to take advantage of our guiding principles.... I can promise Beesource has lost more followers because of you Bordembee, than it has gained. Free speech is a fine flag to fly, but so is deleted button..... One I wish the moderators would use for your post... but you would return with a new handle... so its better than some of point out how wrong you are, for the ones who don't know can make a intelligent choice. I for one would delete you, but I realized how many newbies and uninformed people would be mislead by diatribe.


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## BlueDiamond

More industry responses:

http://tinyurl.com/cdg87my
A spokesman for Syngenta said: "No evidence from the field has ever been presented that these pesticides actually damage bee
health, with the case against them resting on a few studies which identify some highly theoretical risks."

http://tinyurl.com/cfz5sxh
"We can use them safely and not endanger the health of bees," says David Fischer environmental toxicologist with Bayer
CropScience. "There is not a correlation with the use of these products and the loss of colonies. What tends to be publicized
is not an accurate reflection of the weight of the evidence."

http://www.eenews.net/public/Greenwire/2012/04/24/3
When Gaucho was taken off the market [in France], Fischer added, the health of the country's bees did not improve. He also pointed out that
imidacloprid has been widely used in the United States since the mid-1990s, but the sharp decline in bees did not come until
about a decade later. Fischer's remarks were largely confirmed by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, which has done extensive
research on the issue.


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## rhaldridge

I have to say that I don't find the statements from industry flak-catchers any more convincing than borderbeeman's somewhat hysterical posts.

Both strike me as promoting an agenda.

As an organic gardener for 50 years, I'm not a great believer in the sustainability of pesticides and herbicides; I believe that in the long run, they do more harm than good. On the other hand, the scientific evidence for evil effects on bees due to neonic use seems unimpressive. However, there is evidence that successful beekeeping can go on in areas with heavy neonic application. There's the example of Australia, but that one is rendered somewhat irrelevant to the situation of American beekeepers by their lack of a major stressor-- varroa mites. But what decided me was the existence of a treatment free beekeeper in an area that is mostly soy and corn. These crops are heavily treated with neonics, as I understand it, and yet he has very low losses, despite the mites.

It seems at least plausible to me that the cultural practices of many commercial beekeepers are the main cause of these very high losses. It could be that neonics are the straw that broke the camel's back in some cases; I don't know. In any case, once it has been demonstrated that there there are management techniques that allow bees to thrive in spite of neonic use, it seems to me that a rational person has to rule out neonics as the primary culprit in the huge losses some beekeepers have had.


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## BlueDiamond

rhaldridge said:


> it seems to me that a rational person has to rule out neonics as the primary culprit in the huge losses some beekeepers have had.


Beekeeper Randy Oliver's paper:
http://gallery.mailchimp.com/5fd2b1..._Happened_to_the_Bees_This_Spring2013_opt.pdf
"The numerous field studies to date have failed to find any link between seed treatments and later colony health issues."

He also points out that the Michiana Beekeepers Association (Indiana) reported 80% winter survival during the mild 2011-12 winter season
despite the fact that those beekeepers were sitting in the middle of neonic treated corn/soy monocultures.

Obviously if any researcher ever successfully documented, via a real world field study, a link between seed treatments and later colony health issues
that person would instantly become a world famous scientist. But despite years of trying, all real world field studies to date have failed to establish
such a link.


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## gmcharlie

Very well stated Blue and Rhaldrige. My losses of 2011 winter were less than 1% and I take all the extractable honey. 2012 about 30%. but I know why, and its not chemicals....... Its me.....


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## JRG13

Blue Diamond/Borderbeeman,

So which is it? The bees rebounded in France or not? I hear nothing changed really most of the time but Border is claiming it's bee heaven in France once more.... Maybe he'll blame it on GMO's next... oh wait......


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## D Coates

rhaldridge said:


> industry flak-catchers
> 
> 
> 
> To disagree with with what's labeled as a semi-hysterical post earns that title? Speaking for myself, I've been called worse by better. I catch no flack for anyone but myself. You yourself say the "scientific evidence for evil effects on bees due to neonic use seems unimpressive."
> 
> "But what decided me was the existence of a treatment free beekeeper in an area that is mostly soy and corn. These crops are heavily treated with neonics, as I understand it, and yet he has very low losses, despite the mites."
> 
> "a rational person has to rule out neonics as the primary culprit in the huge losses some beekeepers have had."
> 
> Here's your "Industry flak-catcher" jacket.
Click to expand...


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## rhaldridge

D Coates said:


> rhaldridge said:
> 
> 
> 
> industry flak-catchers
> 
> 
> 
> To disagree with with what's labeled as a semi-hysterical post earns that title? Speaking for myself, I've been called worse by better. I catch no flack for anyone but myself. You yourself say the "scientific evidence for evil effects on bees due to neonic use seems unimpressive."
> 
> "But what decided me was the existence of a treatment free beekeeper in an area that is mostly soy and corn. These crops are heavily treated with neonics, as I understand it, and yet he has very low losses, despite the mites."
> 
> "a rational person has to rule out neonics as the primary culprit in the huge losses some beekeepers have had."
> 
> Here's your "Industry flak-catcher" jacket.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, thanks, but I think the difference is that I don't actually work for the pesticide industry. As I understand it, flak-catchers get paid.
> 
> I'll be waiting for my check.
> 
> In all seriousness, I do take into account the employment of the messenger. Maybe I'm a cynic, but there it is. I prefer to get my information from those who have no monetary reason to lie, such as independent researchers like Randy Oliver. If BlueDiamond had only posted the info from Randy Oliver, instead of press releases from industry spokemen, I'd have had no complaints.
> 
> By the way, I love your nuc design!
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## CentralPAguy

I think it is great that someone is posting these articles and hope that he/she keeps bringing them forward. The one thing that is amazing to me is that I am somewhat fortunate to have beeyards in towns and in the countrysides. And my bees in the countryside suffer much more than those in town. If I had my druthers, I would only have yards within town limits. 

Am I bad beekeeper for suffering large losses in 2012. I guess I could be, but then maybe the deck is being stacked against beekeepers. There is alot of money riding on insuring that the neonics continue and it goes from the manufacturer to the farmer to the supermarket and no one wants to make less money regardless of what it might be doing to ourselves. 

I find it hard to believe that the big operators who are suffering some of these major losses are bad beekeepers. But they likely have their hives in the countryside. So, I truly hope that borderbeeman continues posting and if we find that neonics are the real culprit, then I hope that the manufacturers of these chemicals have really deep pockets.


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## cerezha

rhaldridge said:


> ...posted the info from Randy Oliver, instead of press releases from industry spokemen,...


 Well, we had numerous discussions on this matter and during one of these, somebody disclosed (accidentally?) that Randy Oliver, in fact, has (had?) some support from Bayer  ... sorry for spoiling idealistic picture. This discussion turned into the melodrama (tragedy?) after EU has been decided (not asking permission from American beekeepers?) to ban neonics in 27 countries. Bravo EU!!!


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## JRG13

Do you know why Rural bees usually do better centralPA?


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## borderbeeman

Wow, your insights are just staggering.
Julian Little is the main spokesman for Bayer - the main manufacturer of neonicotinoids, apart from Syngenta. Bayer is making over £1billion a year from selling neonics to farmers.
Little's job is to defend his masters poisons to the last ditch; just as tobacco companies propagandists denied that tobacco caused cancer - for 50 years after it was clinically proven.

What Little doesn't like, and doesn't listen to is :

When INDEPENDENT scientists report that Bayer's neurotoxic poisons kill bees at just 3 parts per billion. 

When INDEPENDENT scientists advised the Fench government to BAN these systemic poisons in 2000

When INDEPENDENT scientist advised the German and Italian governments to BAN them in 2010

Little's job and his Bayer predecessors job - all along - has been:

1. To deny that these pesticides are harmful to bees
2. To initially claim that it was 'physiologically impossible for the poisons to emerge in the flowers
3. When Dr Bonmatin proved that neonics DID emerge in the flowers, Bayer sued him for 'defaming its product'. The National Beekeeping Union of France supported him - the judge threw the case out in an hour and awarded damages against Bayer. Nice people you ally yourself with - hope it pays well.
4. As dozens of studies piled up, proving beyond any reasonable doubt that neonics were responsible for mass bee deaths - Little and his spin doctors thought up- 'The Varroa defense'

5. THE DISTRACTION STRATEGY; 'Varroa, viruses, cellphones, aliens'
Varroa was present in Germany, France, Italy, Holland and all of mainland Europe since the 1970s. It was everywhere. They did not suffer any mass bee deaths despite 30 years of varroa infestation.

Then Imidacloprid was introduced on sunflowers in 1994 and BANG!!! One million dead hives.
The beekeepers knew what it was within weeks. Some, who had a thousand hives or more (all had varroa to some degree or other) put half their hives in the chestnut forests or lavender fields. All those hives survived - with the varroa - and made good honey crop. The other half of the hives were put into the sunflowers - almost all those hives 'collapsed', either immediately, or as they went into the winter.

Since the truth came out in France in 2000 - and the ban was implemented - Bayer, Little - and Blue Diamond knew that the game was up. The Science was In. Those with a brain and some integrity could see the truth when it was presented to them; those with no integrity got to work to spread thick dark clouds of smoke and camouflage all over the truth. 

The techniques used were the same as the tobacco lobby:

Deny, deny, deny
Bury regulators in mountains of false 'science' - expensively commissioned from 'pestitute' scientists
Employ hundreds of propagandists and spin doctors to fill the media with lies
Employ online Forum 'actors' to fill the forums with 'the varroa defense'
Employ online Forum attack dogs to bully, attack and intimidate anyone who tries to tell the truth
It is also alleged that Bayer created and owns many of the online Forums.
I am still hoping that this is NOT the case with this Forum, but given the strange behaviour of the Moderator - who sets rules about: no harassment, no bullying, no hatred - but appears to allow free rein to those who clearly do this all the time . . .I have my doubts.


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## CentralPAguy

The bees in the rural area are in trouble and the only difference that I come up with are the fields of corn and soybeans. Farmers have to eat too and they plant what makes them the most monies. If I were in their shoes, I probably would do the same.

I find puzzling is gmcharlie's response is that he takes all the honey and still they came thru in 2011 where he/she suffered 1% loss that grew to 30% in 2012 and his reasoning is that he is a bad beek. He/she didn't explain why he was a bad beek. I would believe that he needed to supplement the honey with some sort of sugar to keep the cluster alive. Perhaps the cluster of bees was too small going into the 2012/2013 winter was too small and it is not beyond me to think of the possibility of a link of cluster size and neonics.

I know that I have had private conversations with multiple individuals who have had 50+ colonies and they have had major losses with their bees next to the cornfields as well. I suspect that some of them don't want to tell their future customers of these failures as it could hurt their sales, so they stay mum about it.

I also don't believe that the moderator of this forum is in the back pocket of the neonics. If so, I can't imagine that neonic postings would remain where they can be searched thru google and other search engines. 

BlueDiamond is reporting that 80% of the Indiana hives for this one organization survived a mild winter, which means that 20% perished during this mild winter of 2011/2012. I can't imagine that being positive press. It should have been much lower. 

Most beeks are really scared for their bees and the smoking gun seems to be neonics.


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## borderbeeman

The French honey production fell by almost 50% after they lost a million hives when neonics were introduced in the mid 1990s. They banned the neonics in 2000 and the honey harvest rebounded - as did the bees.

you can read all about it in this report here:

*https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7FCgF0BwlDGMEV0RU82YmxYQUk/edit?usp=sharing*


YEAR WEIGHT of FRENCH HONEY CROP (kg.)
1995 1,000,893 kg 
1996 1,109,950
1997 638,727
1998 637,446
1999 500,000

The detailed figures and graphs are contained in the above paper.
Since neonics were banned in 2000AD, the harvest has recovered to its previous level although neonics are still widely used in France on 'non-bee-attractive-crops' (cereals, vegetables etc.)

The French are not stupid. they have never rescinded the ban on neonics despite Bayer and Syngenta fighting them in the courts year, after year, after year after year.


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## gmcharlie

Just ask me!... Be glad to tell you!..... I switched to trying to winter in Nucs, and I missed a severe Mite problem going into late fall. That coupled with a fairly deep long winter left my losses higher than I had hoped, but still acceptable to me. The year before I did everything perfect. and we had a really mild short winter.

Your comment about them keeping Mum to not hurt sales baffles me. a guy with 50 hives is not makeing a living selling bees. so he has no reason to hide anything?

WHen the nation wide losess are in the 30% range No matter if your in Neonics or not, why do you think BlueDiamond would be ashamed of that?

AS beeks most of us are lazy. very few stack there hives for wintering. Almost none this far south (IL and IN) wrap and protect and make sure they are dry. I promise Blue Diamond is doing a blanket mite control, and not checking each hive individualy for mites. so why do you want to blame Neonics??
I would wager the amount of neonics in a hive is TINY. by fall all the pollen from the crops is used up, and they are on weeds, Golden rod is huge here, All the summer foragers are long gone, so in theory the one at risk would be the queens... shes been feed this stuff her entire life and its all stored up in her...... and yet she lives..... 

Most new inexperinced beeks are looking for someone to blame..... I dare say IMO most knowledgable beeks look in the mirror.... there is much more I don't know than what I do.

I do know that Neonics are helping farmers, on a scale you cannot concieve. and that to stop that for the sake of some honey and peace of mind of a bunch of people who squawk a lot , with no real data is foolish....


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## JRG13

gmcharlie, you kind of hit on what I've been pondering. A lot of people pointing the finger at neonics, and I'm trying to figure out why it crashes them in the fall/winter. People claim it causes them to lose their way and can't find their way back and I'm trying to figure out where they're going in winter. Also, just as you say, exposure should drop off after summer during winter build up so where are all the neonics coming into the hive then.


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## Birdman

CentralPAguy said:


> I find puzzling is gmcharlie's response is that he takes all the honey and still they came thru in 2011 where he/she suffered 1% loss that grew to 30% in 2012 and his reasoning is that he is a bad beek. He/she didn't explain why he was a bad beek. I would believe that he needed to supplement the honey with some sort of sugar to keep the cluster alive. Perhaps the cluster of bees was too small going into the 2012/2013 winter was too small and it is not beyond me to think of the possibility of a link of cluster size and neonics..


Could be lack of forage, do to the worst drought in 50 years. I lost 25% of my hives, my fault they ran out of store. They were all flying in March, so they almost made it till spring.


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## CentralPAguy

When does an inexperienced beek become an experienced beek. I have had bees for more than 5 years and I read up as much as I can. Maybe I am just a bad beekeeper with my bees in the countryside but am a fabulous beek in my town yards. I really do try to examine what is killing my bees and I take notes and I just wonder what is the difference for the survival rate of my town bees versus my country bees. If all things being equal, I provide the same of care or neglect to both groups of hives. So why the difference.

Please note that I am not a backyard hobbyist, as I have been to 120+ hives and spend thousands of dollars acquiring bees with the hope that next year will be better than the past. This is foolish if my bees keep dying. 

Gmcharlie, thanks -- I do listen to other beeks and appreciate your sharing. I do understand that mites can knock you down and that they need to be controlled. I think you are fortunate to have fields of goldenrod around you and maybe that is some of the reason for success. Goldenrod grows on fields that have not been plowed as it takes all summer to grow. Where I am at, there is goldenrod but not so much-- it is rare to find a field of of any measurable goldenrod in my area as the farmers are taking all possible acreage to grow corn/soybeans. Sometimes, I have seen them doubleplant crops.

I also think that the spring buildup is occurring, they are eating the food stores that they have made and if neonics are in them, then this is what they are eating. Maybe it helps to explain the huge losses that the big operators are seeing. They are in the business to make money and they need to make as much money as they can. So, it doesn't hold water when individuals diagnose them as bad beeks as they lose their money making opportunities for every hive that dies or is not at the required strengths to do effective pollination.

I really do want farmers to prosper, but if neonics is anything like DDT, well then we need to ban them for our safety and our children's safety. If banning neonics affects the farmer's profits, then let's develop alternatives that don't harm us in the process. We need both the food and the bees.


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## Aerindel

I think although its interesting to discuss commercial farming and commercial beekeeping both are doomed and will fall victim to their own management. Any industry that relies on unsustainable resources will ultimately fail, some sooner than others.

Here we are try to tell farmers to stop using pesticides when most beekeepers use pesticides in their own hives? Does this strike anyone else as crazy? 

Does anyone really think that maintaing vast monocultures that can exist only by shipping in thousands of hives from around the country every year is a good way to farm? Does anyone think either the farmers or the bee keepers can keep this up forever?

The great thing about this problem is that it will self resolve. Once most of the bees die most of the agriculture that depends on them will also fail. Instead of CCD they will be talking about agricultural collapse disorder. 

Its going to be messy and a lot of people are going to die but I see no way to avoid it. Their is too much money involved for either side to change their practices. Both industries must physically be destroyed and rebuilt. All anyone can do is run for the hills with a few hives and bags of seed and try and wait it out so there will be someone to recolonize the empty farms once it all falls apart.


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## hpm08161947

Aerindel said:


> Its going to be messy and a lot of people are going to die but I see no way to avoid it. Their is too much money involved for either side to change their practices. Both industries must physically be destroyed and rebuilt. All anyone can do is run for the hills with a few hives and bags of seed and try and wait it out so there will be someone to recolonize the empty farms once it all falls apart.


Is that why you live in Montana? Lot of people who think like you are up there... right?


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## gmcharlie

CentralPAguy said:


> ps.
> 
> I also think that the spring buildup is occurring, they are eating the food stores that they have made and if neonics are in them, then this is what they are eating. Maybe it helps to explain the huge losses that the big operators are seeing. They are in the business to make money and they need to make as much money as they can. So, it doesn't hold water when individuals diagnose them as bad beeks as they lose their money making opportunities for every hive that dies or is not at the required strengths to do effective pollination.
> 
> I really do want farmers to prosper, but if neonics is anything like DDT, well then we need to ban them for our safety and our children's safety. If banning neonics affects the farmer's profits, then let's develop alternatives that don't harm us in the process. We need both the food and the bees.


That is a possibility, and a reasonable discussion. Around here the tine amount of corn pollen and been pollen (both only avalible for a cpl weeks and neither is used heavily) My assumption is that most of this would be used up shortly, and very little would remain percentage wise. Most pollen stores around here come from other plants. 
Goldenrod grows in the margins, ditches and such, and is our main fall flow. also a lot of CRP ground. so if the thoery were right in July when corn tassles I should see a lot of dead brood, not happening.......and yes I have winter losses. but I promise you of the roughly 30% I average. 90% of that is starvation. bees can't get to food stores.
It makes no sense that a huge booming queen hives in which I leave all stores on has no problems (never lost a queen breeder hive) and the others do... they are right next to each other, same food sources.

I am not going to say that a complete collapse of some yards isn't related to any of these Chems, what I am saying is that those of us with HUGE amounts of them all around us are not loosing any more hives than those guys who don't see them at all..... that right there should be enough to shut up people who don't live here...... I am not going to preach to everyone about there backyards, I just want to tell you whats in mine...
Borderbeeman wants to rule the world. I think his real problem is he doesn't like big companies.....or listening to people who really do have a stake in it. I am switching to making a living on bees... in the middle of the most heavy usage of ag chems in the world.


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## Spark

hpm08161947 said:


> Is that why you live in Montana? Lot of people who think like you are up there... right?


hpm have you lived in Montana to make the argument? I can see the point of his assertion that monoculture farming and the heavy reliance on pesticides/herbicides could be an end fail .. and then again without certain controls maybe bees can't make it ... Aerindel has good points do you?


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## hpm08161947

Spark said:


> hpm have you lived in Montana to make the argument? I can see the point of his assertion that monoculture farming and the heavy reliance on pesticides/herbicides could be an end fail .. and then again without certain controls maybe bees can't make it ... Aerindel has good points do you?


No, I was just wondering what we do when stop monoculture farming, using pesticides and herbicides. Head for the hills with a bag of seed?


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## CentralPAguy

gmcharlie,

you got me thinking that location very might well be the difference between why some beeks like myself are having trouble with the bee losses, while you yourself are not seeing them.

Where I am, I have very little fall flow - I have to make my honey in the spring as there is nothing in the fall. I only worry about swarming in the spring time. However if your main flow is in the fall and it is on Goldenrod, I am thinking that your hives dramatically increase their strengths in the fall, where you have to concern yourself about swarming. It likely means that your bees are working the fall flowers and are collecting the pollen and nectar from them. and your queens are in a laying frenzy, while mine are shutting down, which may mean larger clusters in your hives going into winter than mine. I am thinking that perhaps my winters might be milder.

It would be fascinating for someone to measure the percentage of types of pollen that are on your frames versus the percentages of types of pollens that are on my frames. Your pollen just might be healthy, while if my suspicions are true that my pollen contains neonics. I have friends in Western PA who have a fall flow and I need to ask them how their bees are doing. 

I wonder if any beeks or scientists have looked into hives that have a strong fall flow versus hives that only have a strong spring flow. Does anyone know of any independent labs where one could have pollen tested for both 1) types of pollen in percentages and for 2) neonics and if so, what percentage? 

I actually like Borderbeeman's postings. If you are going to make a living off of bees, then you need to be a large operator. Yes? For me, I had dreams on expanding to follow in your shoes, but with my losses, I have had to rethink that dream.


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## borderbeeman

JRG13 said:


> gmcharlie, you kind of hit on what I've been pondering. A lot of people pointing the finger at neonics, and I'm trying to figure out why it crashes them in the fall/winter. People claim it causes them to lose their way and can't find their way back and I'm trying to figure out where they're going in winter. Also, just as you say, exposure should drop off after summer during winter build up so where are all the neonics coming into the hive then.


As I said, this is not my theory - it is that of this large scale bee farmer. You can download and read his article here:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7FCgF0BwlDGbWhUUGd4ZkQtcWs/edit?usp=sharing

One large scale bee farmer (who lost 2,000 out of 3,000 colonies in California this Spring) has written about this. His observation is that the neonics affect foragers in the field - possibly over a period of a week or more, but eventually their nervous system is wrecked and they cannot find their way home, or possibnly not even fly. They just sit on a plant trembling and shaking until they die.

So the hive suffers a growing loss of forager bees - population drops.
The colony senses that less food is coming in, so in 'emergency mode' younger nurse bees are pushed out into the field as foragers to try and maintain the level of incoming nectar and pollen, which of course is contaminated with neonics. But these nurse bees are still too young to be effective foragers, their lifespan is shortened and they die early; they are also being taken away from their real job - raising larvae.

At the same time, lab studies have shown that neonics cause the hypopharyngeal gland in bees to shrink - so this presumably means they produce less brood-food.

The end result is that the population gradually falls and the colony is robbed of young bees. The result is that it goes into the winter with too many old bees and too few 'winter bees'. then as the old bees die-off naturally in the winter - the colony is too small to maintain thermal regulation and just dies. The beekeeper finds the queen with a handful of dead bees in the Spring.


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## gmcharlie

Borderbee, I had an intersting conversation yesterday about the large scale guy I think your refering to... It was with a bee inspector for the state... He said and I quote " that idiot had AFB in every hive we tested"....... May not be the same guy as you won't name yours...... But the Jist is correct for most of the people squawking its PPB killing the hives.


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## gmcharlie

CentralPAguy said:


> gmcharlie,
> 
> you got me thinking that location very might well be the difference between why some beeks like myself are having trouble with the bee losses, while you yourself are not seeing them.
> 
> Where I am, I have very little fall flow - I have to make my honey in the spring as there is nothing in the fall. I only worry about swarming in the spring time. However if your main flow is in the fall and it is on Goldenrod, I am thinking that your hives dramatically increase their strengths in the fall, where you have to concern yourself about swarming. It likely means that your bees are working the fall flowers and are collecting the pollen and nectar from them. and your queens are in a laying frenzy, while mine are shutting down, which may mean larger clusters in your hives going into winter than mine. I am thinking that perhaps my winters might be milder.
> 
> It would be fascinating for someone to measure the percentage of types of pollen that are on your frames versus the percentages of types of pollens that are on my frames. Your pollen just might be healthy, while if my suspicions are true that my pollen contains neonics. I have friends in Western PA who have a fall flow and I need to ask them how their bees are doing.
> 
> I wonder if any beeks or scientists have looked into hives that have a strong fall flow versus hives that only have a strong spring flow. Does anyone know of any independent labs where one could have pollen tested for both 1) types of pollen in percentages and for 2) neonics and if so, what percentage?
> 
> I actually like Borderbeeman's postings. If you are going to make a living off of bees, then you need to be a large operator. Yes? For me, I had dreams on expanding to follow in your shoes, but with my losses, I have had to rethink that dream.


Central, your reading into the post, its not a strong fall flow, its the only flow in the fall. Our flows are almost identical in patterns. Our hives do not build up strong on goldenrod, my point is the window for neonics pollen is around 2 weeks out of a 26 week period, and that pollen is used up. 
Your theory on testing, is and has been done several times. and it has always shown no issues. thats why borderbee won't mention it. I have a post here with a link to Randy Olivers site. if your really interested in good writeing and facts, read it...... it will take an hour ...... so its not a 30 second blog... but if your serious its the way to go..

As for going pro... don't make excuses... there are people makeing a living on bees all around this country including PA..... you may not be there yet, but there around and doing fine... find them and learn what they know. I am absolutly no expert. but I know many who are and I bug the heck out of them!


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## borderbeeman

gmcharlie said:


> Borderbee, I had an intersting conversation yesterday about the large scale guy I think your refering to... It was with a bee inspector for the state... He said and I quote " that idiot had AFB in every hive we tested"....... May not be the same guy as you won't name yours...... But the Jist is correct for most of the people squawking its PPB killing the hives.


I am not at liberty to name my source; he has his own reasons for reserving his privacy within the migratory bee industry. My source is a third generation migratory beekeeper; his family have been bee experts for 60 years.
His bees were INSPECTED by the almond growers when they arrived in California and passed 'fit for pollination'. There was no AFB. They collapsed and died within a month while waiting to go into the almond groves.

Must be some other idiot [he was] talking about.


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## hpm08161947

borderbeeman said:


> Must be some other idiot [he was] talking about.


So the guy lost 2000 out of 3000 hives in one month out in the Almonds..... hmm.... and he is anonymous. Seems like there would be a lot of people here who would know of him....


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## Dave Burrup

Borderbeeman
Being a large scale, third gereration beeman does not remove the potential for a poor decision. Cost benefits ratios are made all the time in agriculture. I have been an observer in the demise of several big multigenerational farms that went down the tube because of a poor decision to treat or not treat, or the next generation takes the reins and drives the buggy in the ditch. There are just too many examples of poor decisions sinking the ship, and "supprisingly" I have never heard a one of these guys admit they screwed up. They blame it on everybody but themselves. Another thing that happens is they run to the media for sympathy. So I guess what I am getting to is your mention of long time beekeepers as examples of sound judgement just does not gain any ground.
Dave


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## Spark

hpm08161947 said:


> No, I was just wondering what we do when stop monoculture farming, using pesticides and herbicides. Head for the hills with a bag of seed?


I would think inter-planting of crops and crop rotation would be the wise choice but then there are always those who throw in the towel when the job gets too tough. Hey-Ho.


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## hpm08161947

Spark said:


> I would think inter-planting of crops


Gardening?



> and crop rotation


Been doing that since the Dust Bowl days....


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## cerezha

gmcharlie said:


> ... large scale guy... " that idiot had AFB in every hive we tested"..


 VERY alarming -professional has AFB in every hive!????? Very unprofessional and compromise the whole industry! Couple of things:
- neonics have a chronic effect, it kills slowly. It is possible, that something (including neonics) made bees weak and than they got AFB
= Inspector would not detect death from neonics because they are not told to do so. When they will be instructed - may be they will do it...


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## borderbeeman

No, you do what France does - second largest exporter of agricultural products in the world - after the USA.
If you visit the French countrysides you will not see vast industrial-farming monocultures stretching the horizon. You will see tens of thousands of relatively small-scale family farms on which millions of people earn a good living and have a great lifestyle, producing the finest food in the world (according to the Cordon Bleu chefs of the world). The French have fought to preserve small-scale, family-run, mixed farming. Many French farmers will have a hundred acres of corn, a hundred acres of sunflowers or canola, a fruit orchard business, some cows, chickens, horses. The landscape is rich and diverse; the rivers are full of trout (I can vouch for that) there are vineyards all over the place. But the French 'work to live' unlike us poor Anglo Saxons, who only 'live to work'. 

Here is a slideshow of my visit to the Dordogne a couple of years back. If you enjoy good food, local wines, fabulous landscapes and lots of wildlife, this is a great place for a vacation. Check it out:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/borderglider/sets/72157620954251887/

I visited Riberac in the Dordogne two years ago - a small town of maybe 3,000 people. The market, as in every small town made you wish you had been born a Frenchman. In the central square, they do not have a giant Walmart or Costo - they have: 100 kinds of local cheeses produced on 100 different farms; a honey stall selling an astonishing range of wild-flower honeys: lavender, forest flowers, chestnut, heather, clover etc. I will post something on the general Forum if the Moderator will allow. it might give you all a nice insight into life in 'La Belle France'. Here's a taster, this woman had a stall selling about 6 kinds of honey from her own bees, none of it was from cultivated crops - apart from the Lavender. She also sold Mead which was superb - and many glasses were hoisted around the fire in the evenings:









*Miel de Foret - Forest Flower Honey - Riberac Market - Dordogne, France*









*Miel de Castanea: Sweet Chestnut Honey - there are huge areas of chestnut forest in France*









*Honey Wine: Mead or 'Hydromel' as the French Call it. *









*Hand-made 'Pain de Campagne' - Village Bread - and 'Florentines' at Riberac Market, Dordogne*

We later sat in a green meadow by the river and watched the trout and dragonflies while the cows grazed nearby.
To my amazement, the meadow was full of wild Bee Orchids like the one below. I have never, ever seen a Bee Orchid in the UK in my entire life, they have been sprayed out of existence over here - but the French like their pastures unsprayed and they prefer Bee Orchids to 0.0001% more on the balance sheet. Similarly, dragonflies and damselfliesm which were common in my childhood in England, are now pretty rare; in most arable crop areas they are extinct.









Bee Orchid in a French Cow Pasture: the flower has evolved to look like a female bumblebee (to a male anyway)


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## Barry

borderbeeman said:


> No, you do what France does - second largest exporter of agricultural products in the world - after the USA.


http://dc.the-netherlands.org/news/...porter-of-agricultural-products-after-us.html

Not all agree with this statement.


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## jim lyon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_imports

...but then there is the matter of how much they import which actually exceeds the amount that they export.


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## borderbeeman

Rapeseed/ canola 1.5 million tonnes exported

PRODUCTION AND FARMING

* France is the EU's largest farm producer with a 19 percent share of EU agricultural output in 2011, followed by Germany (13 pct), Italy (12 pct) and Spain (11 pct).

* Crops make up for more than half of farm output as opposed to Germany, where livestock predominates.

* France is one of the world's top five producers of wheat, sugar beet and rapeseed.

* It is also a major European meat producer, number one in beef and poultry, third in sheep and fourth in pork output.

* A little over one million people are involved in agriculture and the country totaled 514,800 farms in 2010, down 26 percent on 2000.

* France's farm sector employs 2.6 percent of the working population, down from 16 percent in 1962, the year when the European Union's farm policy was launched.

* The average size of French farms has grown over the past years to reach 55 hectares in 2010, three times less than in the U.S. (155 hectares) but 92 times more than China (0.6 hectare).

* France's total farmland was at 29 million hectares in 2010 (about 80 million acres.)

The point is - French farmes are doing just fine and the banning of neonics has had no measureable negative 
effect on yields of sunflowers, wheat, canola or maize.


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## Barry

jim lyon said:


> ...but then there is the matter of how much they import which actually exceeds the amount that they export.


Details, details!


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## cerezha

I do not understand, what is the problem with import? It seems to me that USA is a largest importer: everything in Target made in China, fruits in supermarket - Mexico, Argentina etc. Somebody at the Forum stated that US also imported something like half needed honey.. 

The point regarding French was that its agriculture is doing remarkably well after 10 years of banning neonics... it is speaking for itself.


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## mac

cerezha said:


> I do not understand, what is the problem with import? It seems to me that USA is a largest importer: everything in Target made in China, fruits in supermarket - Mexico, Argentina etc. Somebody at the Forum stated that US also imported something like half needed honey..
> 
> The point regarding French was that its agriculture is doing remarkably well after 10 years of banning neonics... it is speaking for itself.


 Yep grow organic 10 out of 10 bees prefer organic.


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