# Wax foundation falling, how to fix?



## Sully1882 (Jul 18, 2011)

Opened the hives today and the shallow supers I placed on last weekend are full of bees working but all the foundation has fallen over. I am wanting to get cut comb from these shallows so I thought that's why I should just use was foundation only with no wire support. How do you guys remedy this? I went ahead and just scrapped it all out bc the bees had already begun pulling comb out in all directions of the fallen foundation. Any helped would be greatly appreciated.

Sully


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## Sully1882 (Jul 18, 2011)

Do i glue the foundation in the top groove or somehow wedge the wax foundation into the top groove?

Sully


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Traditionally I think foundation is set in wax when used in grooved frames. There are tools for this, and it requires a fairly large container of melted beeswax.

I would use wedge type frames for cut comb, it's more likely the foundation will stay up until the bees get some drawn.

Peter


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I don't have the copper tube with melted beeswax, which is probably what I should do. On the frames where this is a problem, or if I'm just adding a strip of foundation for the bees to draw out, I'll take a beeswax candle, light it and drip wax on to the point where the wood meets the foundation.

Doesn't take a lot of drips to "tack" the strip in place.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## standman (Mar 14, 2008)

If you have holes on your end bars (usually used for wiring), put some bobby pins in to hold the foundation in place. One on each end should give you a lot more support. You can pull them out when the bees get the foundation tacked in place, or just pull them when you get ready to cut the comb.


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## Sully1882 (Jul 18, 2011)

Standman, awesome idea thank you very much!


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Melted wax works, or use the wedge to pinch it in there. You could also just use a strip of foundation and let them build in the rest. As long as the hive is level side to side, it should work out.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If people would stop recommending foundation to these poor newbees... this would never happen with foundationless...


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

let us know how the bobby pin works out please.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

If the foundation is.falling over, it isn't for lack of bobbypins in the wire holes....its that it isn't attached at the top of the frame.
deknow


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Michael Bush said:


> If people would stop recommending foundation to these poor newbees... this would never happen with foundationless...


I was a NewBee 40+ years ago and never had foundation fall out. They should know more about their endeavor before undertaking it. Too many NewBees who take up beekeeping like they are buying a kitten or puppy. A leash, a bowl, some kibble, a blanket and off they go.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

You know Mike was being tongue in cheek, because some many people say that new people can't handle going foundationless. I don't want to speak for Mike, but the point is new people make mistakes no matter what philosophy of beekeeping they are following. Those who don't like foundationless should just stick to teaching people who use foundation on the proper way of going that way, and those that like foundationless will stick to helping people who want to go that route. 
Rod


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## DPLONG (Feb 21, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> If people would stop recommending foundation to these poor newbees... this would never happen with foundationless...


I agree. Just bought six hundred foundationless frames from Kelley's. That would fix your problem.


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## postie (Oct 15, 2011)

Hmmmm....so those of us who prefer foundation, cut comb, etc...and have a market for it...and are new to beekeeping should just go ahead and get rid of all our bees and burn up our equipment and forget the hobby of beekeeping...interesting concept...


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

postie said:


> Hmmmm....so those of us who prefer foundation, cut comb, etc...and have a market for it...and are new to beekeeping should just go ahead and get rid of all our bees and burn up our equipment and forget the hobby of beekeeping...interesting concept...



That's not what anyone is saying. You are sort of caught in the middle of the debate between the foundation people and the foundationless people. I think everyone foundation or foundationless is saying to make sure you get plenty of information before moving forward. The foundationless people are just saying that they don't have to worry about foundation falling out or sagging before it's drawn. We have to worry about other things, but not that. Each approach has it's pluses and minuses and people just need to decide what works best for them.


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## Earl of Chatham (Jan 28, 2013)

rweakley said:


> The foundationless people are just saying that they don't have to worry about foundation falling out or sagging before it's drawn.


People who ride bicycles don't have to worry about their gas tanks exploding, but then neither do most people who drive cars. His problem had nothing to do with choosing foundation vs. foundationless. It was the type of foundation with the type of frame or the lack of tacking it in with wax that caused his problem.


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## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> If people would stop recommending foundation to these poor newbees... this would never happen with foundationless...


Not to mention with a cut comb product, isn't the word that the bulk of the wax [foundation] you buy from big distributors is contaminated with various chemicals because of so much useage by the major industry?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

When I used foundation, I would not put thin surplus foundation in (usually thin and unwired) until just before I put on the super. I would use grooved top bars and I would wax the foundation in with a wax tube fastener. I would also use 7/11 foundation from Kelley so I don't need an excluder. 

>You know Mike was being tongue in cheek

Yes the above reference to foundation was followed by a wink for a reason.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>I would also use 7/11 foundation from Kelley so I don't need an excluder

I attempted to replace queen excluders with 7/11 foundation but my queens happily make it into drone brood, one hive in several boxes.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It seems when bees are desperate for drones and there is little drone comb in the brood nest, they will tear any comb down that has no cocoons and rebuild it into drone brood.


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## BeeDeane (Mar 9, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> It seems when bees are desperate for drones and there is little drone comb in the brood nest, they will tear any comb down that has no cocoons and rebuild it into drone brood.


Mike, Why would bees be desperate for drone?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Drones are part of the reproductive system of the hive. Hives that don't make drones don't pass on much of their genetic material. It's part of the fundamental drive of an animal to reproduce.

Hives want to make drones, and we often interfere with that drive.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why would bees be desperate for drone? 

Colonies are superoganisms. Every organism has a drive to reproduce. Drones are necessary for reproduction. Bees have a threshold for drones that varies by time of year and flow and in the spring they want about 25% drones during prime reproductive swarm season. They will go to great lengths to get them.


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## BeeDeane (Mar 9, 2013)

Thanks Mike and Solomon. 
From reading I realise you both are expert beekeepers and I've been reading up on your book Mike and love your pproach. I get the point you both are making and I know Doctors do differ so.
My instinct (common sense?) tells me that what you are saying is right on, but there is a common practice in my area (which I have adopted to some extent) of eliiminating drone cells in supers as the cells may contain SBH (and because they "don't serve and real purpose" if the queen is laying. I notice they do build drone cells whether or not you there are built up frames or no foundation at all. I do believe they know better than we do what they want but how does on reconcile the SBH argument (theory)?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>as the cells may contain SBH

I think you mean Varroa mites.

> (and because they "don't serve and real purpose" if the queen is laying.

They don't server any purpose in that hive if they need to mate a queen. That queen is unlikely to mate with those drones. But that is still how the hive puts it's genetics out there. Also it serves a very large purpose because the bees will spend a lot of energy trying to raise drones if you don't let them.

>but how does on reconcile the SBH argument (theory)? 

Again, assuming Varroa, in it's natural host (Apis ceranae) the Varroa infest the drones and hardly infest the workers. This damages some of the drones but does not damage the workers. In it's natural host, reproducing (very successfully I might add) on drones, it causes the colony little harm.

I don't cull any drone comb. I don't treat for Varroa at all. I do have small cells, which may help the Varroa focus on the drones by being able to distinguish the workers from the drones better.


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## BeeDeane (Mar 9, 2013)

OK I'm pretty clear! Thanks for your patience and taking the time (and yes it is Varroa!). Bear with me in asking a question I should have previouly: What if its HONEY supers you want? Doesn't all these drone cells interfere with the harvesting?


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