# BEAR



## Dee (Apr 22, 2004)

i went up to check my one hive that is across the road and guess what i found...evidence of what i think is bear damage but it must have been a smaller one.
destroyed a few frames from one deep and the other deep super wasnt touched just tipped on its side. this poor hive has been thru everything, its the overwintered one that almost died due to mites. i'm not sure how long its been like this but doesnt look too bad even though we've had lots of rain so maybe it just happened last night. the only signs that it might be a bear is there is one swipe of what looks like a claw mark on one of the frames, no foot imprints anywhere just trails of brush down around the hive. i'm wanting to move this hive down with the other 3 in the yard tonight so i can better watch it but wouldnt that just incourage the bear to come across the road to get at all of them? do dogs scare bears away or would the bear hurt him? the dogs coup is about 50 feet away from the hives in the back yard. of course i didnt have my camera - i let someone barrow it!








not too bad considering - it couldve been worse!


----------



## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>it couldve been worse!

It WILL get worse!
--Mike(with over 30 yrs experience with bees and bears)


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

A bear will return to a hive and raid it time and time again.

You would be surprised how close a bear will come to dogs, especially ones that are tied or penned up. If the dogs are penned, the bear already knows that.

I would not put my money on having dogs or activity alone protect my hives.

A hungry bear will put up with a lot to get food.

My dog / dogs run free and are not on any set schedule as far as being in or out. I have had bears break in to storage areas to get at supers / equipment. I have had bears on the outside of a door with the dog barking on the inside, without the bear paying any mind to the dog.

For most black bears a good fence and charger system will stop them. A baited fence stops them in their tracks, usually. The trick is to not let them get a taste of your hives and their location.


----------



## Dee (Apr 22, 2004)

that bear got it again, this time destroying it completely

i am ticked!


----------



## oregonsparkie (Apr 12, 2004)

Time to get a bear tag and dust that rifle off.

Might as well put some meat in the freezer!!


----------



## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Kinda reminds me of the scene in Ulees Gold where the little girl asks"think the bear will come back granpa?" And the old beekeeper (Peter Fonda) says calmly "dont think so".I laugh at that every time cause in real life that means the bear got sent to bear heaven!


----------



## Susan (Aug 6, 2003)

Yes, the bear will be back again, and again.We also had a bear attack at 1 of our places here in town. No bears around this part in years. Must be the drought. Loggermike, glad to see you around, was thinking of you durning the fires up that a way. We also had a big fire here, thats still burning. We just 2 days before moved 128 hives from where it was burning to the valley floor.Someone was watching out for us that time.


----------



## Mitch (Jul 7, 2003)

Hi Dee sorry to hear about the bear.Happy hunting.or maybe the beacon on the electric fence that i read about on here.

Bob


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Is there anything you can salavge from this hive?

Look around for the bees, they have been displaced from their hive, if the queen wasn't killed, they are somewhere close till they find a new home.

The goldenrod is in bloom and the smell of nectar curing fills the area. This acts as a bear lure.

If you don't have a fence around your other hives, do it fast.

Lastly, 50 feet is a good distance. Plenty of distance for the bear. But, it may be too close for your dogs. 

If a bear gets into these hives, the bees get defensive, the dogs are making a lot of noise and motion. They could be seen as part of the problem and the bees may go after them, and they can't get away.

Call your local game warden and file a bear damage report. Take lots of pictures of the damage.

Keep a file / record of bear damage.

In NYS, a bear may be shot after hive damage has been done, but it must be documented. So lay out your ground work to cover yourself.


----------



## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Hi Susan,the fires are closer to Redding than us.We had some dry lightning around here but so far no big fires have taken off.Its awfully dry here.I hope your bees are doing well.
Good advice from Mountaincamp above.Our bees are working rabbitbrush (the last plant to bloom here)The beeyards smell like sour socks when its being gathered.Just yesterday I found fresh bear tracks a quarter mile from a yard I went to check.This one is trying to zero in on them.Gonna put a fresh batt.on that fence and extra bacon today.


----------



## Dee (Apr 22, 2004)

well this hive was at 2 deeps full of bees and started building in the medium super and is now down to 1 medium, i've combined them with the swarm that i got - i have no idea if the queen survived. it was such a mess this time







so sad!

of course with all the foundation laying around i had alot of robbers around too. that stinking bear even bit into my new plastic foundation, most was duragilt though, i saved one frame that has his four claw marks right thru it, pretty neat looking actually
none of the brood frames were saveable, so really im down to a package of bees, thats why i combined

i did get the fence put up today and baited it with bacon, it must be a smaller bear, the few foot prints i seen (and took pics of) are smaller than my hand.

i am so afraid that it'll come down off the hill across the road and get my other ones, i've certainly built some nice steps in the bank for it to climb down








my heart is going to just drop if i see much more damage, its so hard to see your girls in such bad shape and dead.

i'm thinking of moving them to my dads house?? i really like watching them here though.

i put a baited nuc where the old hive was so i could catch all the workers, i moved that tonight inside the fence, i'll combine them tomorrow
oh yeah i am going to call someone to see what can be done, we have alot of kids around town so im sure they'll do something
i wish i wouldve bought that motion sensor that you put in your driveway so when cars come into the drive an alarm would go off - thats probably what it'll do if it does come across the road - easiest access to the other hives.
well i guess i'll have to wait and see if my fense job was a success, i just hope my cats dont think the bacon is free lunch (or the neighbors dog)


----------



## Hayseed (Apr 25, 2004)

"In NYS, a bear may be shot after hive damage has been done, but it must be documented. So lay out your ground work to cover yourself."

Wish I could agree, Mountain Camp. I spoke with a DEC wildlife manager this week about that and was told, with a smile, I could forget it. I guess it depends on the circumstances.

I inquired because a large black bear has been sighted many times, within 2 miles of here (he's raiding bird feeders). One can only get a permit to nuisense shoot if there's significant damage and was told my 5 hives aren't enough to warrant that. They won't live trap unless the bear is a danger to human populations or a pest in highly populated areas. I live in a town with 750 residents. My only recourse is to SSS. (spot, shoot and shovel). I'm thinking of putting up elec fence but I will have to move hives as I have them in several areas. 

A proper fence is not an inexpensive project. I've seen where a bear simply tore the fence down. The beekeeper finally put up a high tensile electrified fence that worked. His cost was over $300. for a 15' X 15' fence. I guess that's better than losing the hives. It was amusing to see where the frustrated bear clawed and chewed up a utility pole near the hives.


----------



## sarah (Jul 20, 2004)

i would say, go with the fence. it seems kind of rash to kill something so gentle and social because it likes honey. we like honey, bees like honey, bears like honey. can you blame it for wanting to fatten up for winter on something so tasty? i like bears. i know a fence (or fences) would be expensive, but if you kill this bear, whose to say another bear wouldn't be drawn in and destroy the yard, or a different one, later. it seems a fence may actually be less expensive in the long run. just my two cents. sarah.


----------



## chemistbert (Mar 4, 2004)

A 30-30 cartridge cost about 13 cents. You could kill every bear in the county for the price of a fence charger. Bears are not gentle and they cause great damage every year. We don't have blacks here anymore but my grandfather told me stories and I know I don't ever want them back.


----------



## Susan (Aug 6, 2003)

Our bees in the mountains where on white fur. They did ok, but like you so very dry.The ones in the valley are doing so much better.Getting ready to do 200 splits the first of Sept. The fish and games guy was surpised to hear the bear was this low. Told us with a fence, etc if the bear attacked again, we could shoot him, then call, but must have a fence etc first, or get fine 1500.00. He also said the state will pay for the damages as the bears are state property..wait and see on that.This yard did not have a fence, but will next year.


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

A fence is not cheap, but less expensive than replacing equipment, bees, and lost honey. 

Most of my yards are fenced with 6' T post and 3 or 4 strands of 12-ga wire. The most expensive part of the system is the good charger.

No fence type / system, no matter how strong or sturdy, that is affordable will stop a bear alone. The bear needs to be trained to dislike the fence or what ever else. Baiting the fence gets the bear to stop for a snack and get the full jolt of the charge across his noise or mouth. That is what stops them. An un-baited fence is worthless.

NYS & Bears:
I have had the ECO's here several times over the years for bears and problems. They have given us the rubber buck shot and the talk. But, the bottom line was if you have to kill the bear to stop him, just let us know.

I live where they take the problem bears moved from other areas. They have been on the front / back porch, noises to doors and windows, in the garage, etc, as well as in the hives.

I document every time that I have bear damage. It has been 5 or 6 years, since I started baiting the fences, that I have had serious problems. I have had isolated problems at yards if the fence went dead, but not consistent problems at the same yards. I have a Peirco frame with a large bit out of it.

I would talk with the local ECO and even the wildlife manager again and educate them on the "economics" of bee keeping. Every hive is $100.00 + worth of woodenware, $60.00 + worth of bees, and several hundred dollars worth of honey. Then a hive lost this year means that you have to rebuild it next year at a cost in dollars and honey. You could easily justify a value of $400.00 or more per hive.

Killing individual bears after they have already done the damage is expensive management. It is also in effective, no one can sit and watch their hives 24 hours a day and 7 days a week. Also, if there is any kind of population, another bear will just take it's place.

The best way to manage bears and protect hives is with effectively bait high voltage fences.


----------



## squarehead (Apr 13, 2004)

reading about this bear makes me wonder why no one uses a bear mat? i use them around my hives and around my cabin and they seem to work well, just get yourself an old sheet of plywood and 3" long roofing nails.space the nail an inch apart all over the board then lay it nail side up. the bears wont walk on it,kinda hurts there paws. if that dose not work then i d go with the 30/30 .iI dont have a bear problem since i put them out


----------



## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

> He also said the state will pay for the damages as the bears are state property..
Well thats news to me.If true the freekin state owes me thousands and thousands of dollars for when they used to dump their problem park bears around my yards.No fence would keep them out.But now that there are just wild bears around here,its been years since a bear went through one of my fences.Just gotta keep the battery charged and bacon on the wires.


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I know people who use "bear mats" in one form or another.

I have not for several reasons: 
-my family and pets 
-many of my yards are located on other people's farms / property, liability if someone was to get hurt on the mats, kids, domestic animals etc.
-an injuried bear is far more dangerous and a greater threat to anyone in the area. 
-An injuried bear is more likely to become a problem bear.
-I also think that bear mats run a very fine line with the DEC / ENCON and animal welfare people. ie: Can a bear mat be considered impalement type trap? Hence, you would be trapping out of season, and it is illegal to trap bears in NYS.


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Hayseed - You must make an attemp to protect your property / hives. Hives that do not have fences, bird feeders, etc, don't count. 

If you don't get any help from the local DEC people, here is one of the statues that covers problem bears and some contact info below:

Statutory Authority: ECL 11-0521 and 6 NYCRR Part 175: The Department may issue a Nuisance Wildlife Control License to qualified individuals to act as an agent for a property owner or lessee. The licensee is permitted to take, temporarily possess, transport and release wildlife, at any time whenever the wildlife becomes a nuisance, destroys property or menaces an individual or domestic animal.
To apply for this license, contact the Division of Fish, Wildlife and Marine Resources Special Licenses Unit.
Special Licenses Unit
NYSDEC
625 Broadway
Albany, NY 12233-4752
(518) 402-8985


----------



## quiz (Jul 22, 2004)

Though I'd rather not see anyone need to shoot a bear needlessly (unless one would be taking his mind off the bees, and put it on the freezer instead, maybe have the hide tanned, etc.,),
I DO recomend something more than a 30-30 cartridge. Like---a 150-180 grain .308 Winchester or better. 200-220 grain 30-06 would be better still. 

.308 is the ground floor, "good enough" round according to CA Fish & Game advisory. I don't suppose Eastern black bears are much different.
Though I suppose 30-30 could do the job, at 50 yards or less, but I myself would like to have "more" terminal performance than 30-30. That round has about a third less uump than a .308.
(I don't even hunt our little West Coast blacktail dear with 30-30. It's just not always one can close the range well enough to be dead certain of a one-shot, clean harvest)
It's too bad I don't live close to you, or I might even lend you a carbine length pump-action '06.
It's more a Pennsylvania type of hunting rifle, anyway. 
From my own stable of hunting rifles, that might be the one...or else the iron-sight Mauser in .308
For some things, iron sights can be an advantage over the scopes.---Like defending one's self in dim light!
Ok, so 75 cents, to a dollar a round versus 30 cents. A bargain!


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

"It was amusing to see where the frustrated bear clawed and chewed up a utility pole near the hives."

This is a male, usually the biggest one in the area, marking his territory and warning the smaller guys to stay out of his way.

I have seen where the large males had marked the sides of a boat house in the Adirondacks for generations before it came down. Some of the claw marks where over 8' off the ground.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Right on, Quiz!


----------



## surveygeek (Apr 27, 2003)

Any recommendations on good chargers? What do you need to know to decide what size of charger to get? Thanks.


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

You want a charger that will produce 7,000 Volts or more.

Most cattle / livestock charges will work fine. 

I would stay away from the low end homeowner chargers.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

What I find to be the best estimate of relative power on chargers is how many miles of fence the rate it for. A 50 mile fence charger hits a lot harder than a 10 mile fence charger.

In theory Joules is how you would compare them.


----------



## Hayseed (Apr 25, 2004)

I was just getting the materials around this a.m. to start a fence around some of my hives when I got a phone call from a good friend, two miles away. 4 of his 5 hives were demolished by a bear. We worked all morning trying to salvage what we could. Two hives were mostly just pushed over and bees were clustering on the frames. The other two were strewn over a 50 foot area and 90% of the brood and honey were eaten from the frames. We are going to move whatever we can salvage to another yard 3 miles away this evening. Anything special we should do to the hives we move?

What a shame. This guy is the nicest person and just loves his bees. 

As for me, I've been building fence all day around some of my hives. I'll be staked out at his place tonight with my trusty peashooter. I've even bought some greasy bacon for that dear ole bear. Hope I can stay awake. Also hoping for some moonlight.

Hayseed


----------



## scsasdsa (Jan 23, 2004)

I have found that bears do not like the smell of mothballs.(napthalene). a few thrown in a circle from the beeyard seems to keep them at bay for a short while and I believe it covers some of the hive smell that attracts the bear. maybe a temporary solution untill that fence is up and sparking.


----------



## Whitey (Jul 7, 2003)

Here the Bears walk right through my fences with 7000 volts when they want. I built 8' tall steel post platforms to keep them out of the hives. It has worked. It ends up being a little more work using a ladder to access but not maintaining fences for the hives makes it worth it.


----------



## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

Bears are smart and like goat(which I kept in electric fences) can smell the charge and know when to charge thru the fence. So for goat you use more than one charger and keep 3 to 4 strands of wire. Each charger hooked to 2 strand each or the middle one to the other charger.


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

A bear's fur / coat is thick and works as a very good insulator. 

To stop a bear from just passing through an electric fence, you need to hit him where he will feel it.

By baiting a fence, a bear is tempted to stop and get an extra free meal. When he smells around for the bait, the end of his nose will contact the hot wire or when he bits down to get the bait, his mouth gets the jolt.

The other method that does increase the effectiveness of a electric fence is to use barbed wire instead of smooth wire. The barbs will scratch into the skin through the coat.

But, baiting is the most effective way to improve a fence's performance.


----------



## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

Get a few of these...
http://www.bugspray.com/professional/bear.html


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

But how do you get the bear OUT of the trap.







After all, leghold traps ARE live traps (contrary to popular belief).


----------



## Whitey (Jul 7, 2003)

I think it depends on if you bears are local or migratory to your area. Mine live here year around and only hibernate a few months out of the year if at all. So a bacon wrapped hot wire does little good they just avoid it and walk through the fence. My small orchard is fenced with 6 strands of high tensile wire and there are bears eating in the apple trees as I write this. I watch them walk through 7k volts like it is not even there. The horses and the steer avoid it at all cost.

I caught a cub in a 6' havaheart trap last year. I had to have fish and Game come back me up with shotguns to get it out. It was dark and Momma was mad and prowling the area trying to get her cub back. The little guy took a few swipes at the F&G guy on his way out of the trap.


----------



## Guest (Aug 24, 2004)

Hey quiz....go all out and use a 12 ga slug....never fails!


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Whitney,
You need to re-condition your bears and their habits. 

They have already been conditioned to accept a little discomfort to get what they want and they know what is on the otherside of the fence.

Sows bring their cubs, who themselves will come back, then those sows will bring their cubs.

Their fur is an insulator, so they don't get the full jolt of the fence as they go through.

I don't know what type of fence setup or system you have.

But, here are a few suggestions that may help:
Use good posts, locust or 4x4 and sink them deep. Space the posts closer.

Between posts use vertical wires to keep the spacing between the wires. This makes it harder to slip between two wires.

Use barbed wire to get them on the skin and slow them down.

Alternate wires between hot and ground wires. You get a better jolt with a better connection between ground, animal, and hot wire.


----------



## Whitey (Jul 7, 2003)

Mountaincamp,

I like the bears and its worth it to lose a few apples to be able to watch them. I have 20 individual bears that visit the orchard most years. They die of old age here as most people do not hunt them around me. I shoot one every few years and the average age has been 26 years from tooth samples I have to give the game dept. 
The fence is 6 wire New Zealand Hi tension strung on 8' wood posts burried 4' spaced 15'. It's a smooth wire as it is for horses. The Bears like to get under the bottom wire and push it up. I know they get shocked because they always jump through it once it hits their neck. It is fun to watch them one fat 400+ lb boar in particular. He has avoided my arrow now for 6 years and is one smart old boy. Take care.


----------



## Barry Digman (May 21, 2003)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But how do you get the bear OUT of the trap<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just start talking to them. They get bored and fall asleep and I haul them off and release them.

We had a bear in camp this summer. The locals said that household ammonia in a ziplock sandwich bag will do the trick. They smear honey or peanut butter on the outside of the bag, then fill it with ammonia and leave it where the bears have been snooping around. When the bear bites the ammonia bag, they say it cures them of that location. If someone would be willing to try this I'd sure like to know if it's effective or just another myth.


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Whitney,
I know what you mean. My fruit trees aren't even fenced in. I do some food plots for the deer and turkeys as well.
I don't mind the wildlife getting some of what I grow.
I just don't want the bears getting into the hives.
My youngest always checks the fields / woods around the house for what can see.
My wife just gets going about the coyotes and the bears on the porches.

[This message has been edited by MountainCamp (edited August 24, 2004).]


----------

