# Eye witness to colony collapse: Bee-farmer loses 2,000 hives in one month



## borderbeeman

Please see the LINK below to an account of the devastating collapse of over 2,000 bee colonies in California.

The eye-witness account was provided to me by the bee-farmer in question, who arrived in California with 3,150 healthy hives on November 1st 2012. All of the hives were examined and 'passed' as fit for the Almond Pollination - which takes place in February (right now). The inspection is critical, since each healthy hive receives a pollination fee of up to $200 and the almond-growers will not pay for anything that is less than healthy.

The bee-farmer in question had contracted to supply 3,000 hives at a fee of up to $200 per hive, so conceivaby he stood to earn $600,000 for one month's work pollinating almonds. He has already lost 2/3rds of that planned income.

More than 2,000 of his colonies died while waiting for the almond pollination to start. They did not die as a result of pesticides they encountered in the California winter (November/ December). Rather they died because of the systemic neonicotinoid insecticides, and other pesticides they had been exposed to back in the Midwest, from May to September, among the pesticide-treated crops of soybeans, corn and other crops.

The article can be downloaded from Google Docs here:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7FCgF0BwlDGbWhUUGd4ZkQtcWs/edit?usp=sharing

Having possibly lost $400,000 worth of bees, and an additional loss of pollination income - for the same amount $400,000 - it is questionable whether his business can ever recover. There may be hundreds of other American bee-farmers suffering a similar fate this season, since, according to USDA, more than 240 million acres of American crops were treated with systemic neonicotinids in 2012. Of that - around 92 million acres of GM corn were treated with clothianidin, as well as being blasted with roundup and fungicides.

Many of the 1.5 million hives brought to California from all over America for the almond plination will have been exposed to the same hyper-toxic, bee killing pesticides. So this year may prove to be a watershed both for bee-farmers and for the almond industry - as many people have already commented.


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## Coffee_Bee

Let me get this straight---

It's an "eyewitness" report, but the name isn't mentioned, plus all kinds of hard data
The bees arrived in CA in November 
The bees get sprayed in CA
Bees die over a course of months in CA
But last summers midwest crop is blamed
Too few facts and too much conjecture
WHO wrote this article? I'm not seeing actual names.
Was this meant to be circulated to influence people?


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## camero7

Just someone with an agenda and can't back them up with facts.


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## borderbeeman

No it is an honest account by a bee farmer who is in California right now, and this is his analysis of what has happened to his bees. 

The bees cannot have been killed by any pesticides in the almonds because the 2000 hives died before they went into the almonds. They were independently inspected and declared healthy on November 1st; 2,158 hives were dead when inspected again on February 5th. Those are the facts.

It is entirely up to the bee-farmer in question when he chooses to go public and put his name to it. I feel that he WILL go public in the next fwe weeks. For the moment he is in a difficult position; he still has to work his remaining hives in the almonds and he has to deal with the commercial aspects of the business.

He has issued the article in this way to encourage other bee-farmers to come forward and tell what has been happening every year since 2003. The fact that 10,000,000 colonies have been lost, and apart from Dave Hackenberg, almost nobody has 'gone public' should tell you something about the kind of pressures that are being brought to bear: politically, commercially and socially.

In conclusion, the article speaks for itself. It's a hypothesis - from a man who has just been financially ruined.

It is entirely up to him what he chooses to do next. He has shared this 'for the public good' - and can have no other motive. Nobody is paying him for this.


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## Keith Jarrett

borderbeeman said:


> Many of the 1.5 million hives brought to California from all over America for the almond plination will have been exposed to the same hyper-toxic, bee killing pesticides. .


Yep, mine have been expose to the same thing here in Calif where I live, mine are doing fine over all, sure which they would post some more threads like this one.


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## borderbeeman

Sorry but you have obviously NOT read and understood the article. His bees have NOT been exposed to pesticides in California. They were brought to California the last week in october and inspected, passed as healthy on November 1st. The 2,150 colonies died BEFORE they were exposed to any pesticides in California since they were parked in beeyards, not in the almonds. They were waiting to go into the Almonds in early February but 2,150 hives were found dead and *empty* of bees in the week of February 1st-5th. I guess he discovered this when he went to load the bees for transport from the holding yards into the almonds. He says that he had to combine as many as six remnant clusters to make a single viable hive; so the 900 he salvaged are mostly damaged and weak. 

The 2,100 dead hives not die of varroa or any obvious pathogen which leaves piles of dead bees in the hive.
The bee-farmer's hypothesis - drawn from his 30 odd years of experience, is that they were killed by the pesticides they had collected and stored in soybean pollen and corn pollen, back in the Midwest, in July and August respectively.

He believes that the bees stored this pollen and then worked down into it in October, November - and the combined effects of multiple exposures to neonics, cyhalothrins, fungicides and herbicides - stored in the pollen and bee-bread, had the effect of stopping the production of enough 'winter bees' to see the colony through the winter.

You don't have to agree with any of this, it's just one man's experience, and his attempt to make sense of a pattern that has affected thousands and thousands of beekeepers in Europe, Australia, South America and the USA.


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## deknow

borderbeeman said:


> No it is an honest account by a bee farmer who is in California right now, and this is his analysis of what has happened to his bees.


Can you clarify? It looks like there are 2 paragraphs that are "eye witness account"....the vast bulk is someone (you?) writing your own copy...referring to the beekeeper in the third person, and referring to the beekeeper as your "correspondent".

What have the bees been eating since November? Has their feed (I'm assuming HFCS) been tested for HMF? For other toxins?

Who wrote the copy?

deknow


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## jim lyon

I have no doubt this man honestly believes pesticides were a factor, and he may well be correct but evidence of residues and exposure would be critical to establishing a cause and effect here. Lots and lots of things can cause bees to die through the winter. It requires objective analysis to make a determination. If death through illegally applied pesticides can be determined to be a factor then there could potentially be culpability and a case brought against someone, if the cause was determined to be something like varroa or resulting viruses then there would not. I personally know of one excellant beekeeper who has no doubt that foliar spraying of bees he had near sunflowers this summer greatly weakened his hives. Sunflowers are routinely aerial sprayed for many different pests, he claimed all his bees near sunflowers were weak and all of his other hives came through the summer very strong (even though there would have been potential neonic exposure to both groups of bees). He made a pretty convincing case to me particularly since I have had similar experiences through the years near sunflower fields. I bring this up as a reminder that neonics were developed to alleviate the very real problems of foliar spraying that pretty much just kills every bug in the field, it's a real sledge hammer approach that is still being used on some crops such as sunflowers where there are no other alternative like systemic neonics.


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## mac

jim lyon said:


> I bring this up as a reminder that neonics were developed to alleviate the very real problems of foliar spraying that pretty much just kills every bug in the field, it's a real sledge hammer approach that is still being used on some crops such as sunflowers where there are no other alternative like systemic neonics.


Yep spraying kills bees in the fields. Neonics kill subsequent generations of bees in the hive.


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## camero7

> Yep spraying kills bees in the fields. Neonics kill subsequent generations of bees in the hive.


And you know this how?


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## borderbeeman

It is actually all his text. I merely took his personal eye-witness account and translated it into a 'third person' account. I have no experience of bee-farming, merely a hobby beekeeper, who used to keep 10 hives - before I was surrounded by neonic treated canola. Now I am down to three hives, and two of them are so-so.

I know nothing about the practicalities of American bee-farmng, and far less about migratory bee-farming, so I assure you I have not added or subtracted a single fact as related to me by the person who experienced this. I do not have sufficient knowledge of how bee-farming works in the USA to be able to invent or embellish any facts; it is simply beyond my experience.

If you want, I will ask him what the bees were fed and pass on his reply.


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## Ian

the dead hives will still have pollen left in the frames, has he gotten any of the pollen tested for neonicotinoid insecticides residues or any other type insecticide residues ?


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## jim lyon

mac said:


> Yep spraying kills bees in the fields. Neonics kill subsequent generations of bees in the hive.


Any weakening of the hives has ramifications to subsequent generations. It takes a long time and it takes good conditions for hives to recover from a spraying event. More often than not there isn't time for a hive to recover. These are known facts. The potential insidious killing of hives by neonics is extremely difficult to determine. I think it's a fair statement to make that more research has concluded it does not have an effect than that it does. But frankly I just want real research to give me the answers to these questions not folks whose primary battle is with big government and big business in general and yes I do believe we have some really bright unbiased minds looking at these things.


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## Ian

I skimmed through the article, and I seen lots of mention of the neonicotinoid insecticides used through out the mid west, but where does it say anything about neonicotinoid insecticides residues in the tested pollen of the dead hives,.? Maybe I missed that part while skimming, can someone point it out to me?


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## JBJ

Properly cared for Almond hives should have been fed many times since November... and in which case a crash in progress would have been noticed or possibly prevented... at least it would not be a surprise in Feb.

We all face pesticide challenges and set backs from time to time and constant vigilance is required to get by in this day and age. That being said those I know doing the best coping with these challenges are feeding a lot and way in to nutrition which can take a lot of stress off a hive.


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## jim lyon

Ian said:


> I skimmed through the article, and I seen lots of mention of the neonicotinoid insecticides used through out the mid west, but where does it say anything about neonicotinoid insecticides residues in the tested pollen of the dead hives,.? Maybe I missed that part while skimming, can someone point it out to me?


Lets not clutter this issue up with facts Ian.


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## gmcharlie

Why if he took them into Ca in Nov,  was it Jan before he noticed a problem? seems very suspicious. keep in mind I don't know anything except that me and some of my friends have been keeping bees in the VERY MIDDLE of the Neonics for over 10 years and have not had this problem, in fact we have hives that are 8-10 years old, and personaly I have not removed brood comb in 5 years.... Now between me and a cpl of my friends we only represent about 5000 hives its a small group....


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## Haraga

The good news is he knows where NOT to put his bees next season.


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## Kieck

I think your writing in the article is very good, borderbeeman, but some of the statements overstate circumstances here. The writing reads very well, but it's clearly written by someone from the U. K. Terms used in the article are different than are used here commonly, and the references to beekeeping in the U. K. indicate that it was written for use in the U. K., likely by someone in the U. K.

The writing style in the linked document is very similar to the writing style in your posts, so I'm presuming that you're the author.

Speaking as a beekeeper in the state with the greatest acceptance of transgenic corn (Bt, almost always treated with neonicotinoid seed treatments), I have yet to experience CCD or losses that I can attribute to poisonings by neonicotinoids. I've experienced some acute pesticide kills, but nothing like is being blamed on neonicotinoids. The relationship that is claimed in the article is a cause-and-effect type relationship: bees exposed to neonicotinoids dwindle and die. Yet the experiences that I've had show pretty clearly that the relationship is not so clearly cause-and-effect.


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## Ian

So, he had contracted these hives for $200 back in November? Oh wait, it says they were contracted for UP TO $200 per hive, makes for easier math in the story using $200 for them all. 

How many here contracted their hives for $200 back in November?


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## jim lyon

Nor do they correspond to what I have experienced. We have seen a real explosion in the planting of neonic treated row crops in recent years in our area. We not only haven't seen an overall deterioration in bee health but our bees have generally much better in recent years and this isn't just a random claim, it's one borne out in actual frame counts in California. Our varroa control is much better though, hmmmmmm.


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## odfrank

My bees were in California all year, not exposed to agricultural spraying or crops, only residential, and they died also. I'm inclined to chalk up my loses to lack of treatments, mite overload and subsequent viruses.


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## Keith Jarrett

JBJ said:


> Properly cared for Almond hives should have been fed many times since November... .
> 
> We all face pesticide challenges and set backs from time to time and constant vigilance is required to get by in this day and age. That being said those I know doing the best coping with these challenges are feeding a lot and way in to nutrition which can take a lot of stress off a hive.


Well said John. 

What really kills me is, the said keeper moves his/her hives near a commercially grown crop, then cry's foul IF they get sprayed.


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## gmcharlie

whats more disgustings than pesticide poisining is Scam articles and Tree huggers falsehood. after reading it, is misses a ton of info, references problems in CA with NO names No credits, no author... no facts. just thory, from someone in another country...... Just as well write how the uptight knickers in the UK were contributing to global warming....

Wish the Moderators here were as hard on this stuff as they are other things........this post should be wiped


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## Michael Palmer

So the colonies were strong in November, after going through a massive drought in the mid-West this past summer. And the bees crashed by mid-winter due to neonics? Sounds about right except the neonic part. 

How about an alternative explanation that seems to me much more credible. Colonies under drought conditions can't raise winter bees, and populous colonies of old bees don't survive the winter.


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## borderbeeman

This has got very little to do with 'commercially sprayed' crops. The neonics are almost always applied as a seed-coating at planting time and the scale of the plantings defies belief. The USDA figures - from memory, are that a total of around 243 million acres of US crops are seed-treated with Clothianidin. That is ten times the area of the entire country of Scotland, which is no small place. The figures included 92 million acres of neonic treated corn - which is virtually the country's entire corn crop; close to another 100 million acres of wheat, soybeans and canola, and the rest was cotton.

That raises the question: is there anywhere in the entire USA where bees do not have access to systemic neonicotinoids? According to some studies, around 98% of the poison applied to the seeds at planting time, is lost into the soil, where it can remain toxic for up to six years. So if a farmer plants a follow on crop of 'untreated' plants, it makes no difference because there is enough neuro-toxin in the soil to make the next six years of crops toxic to bees and other pollinators.

The Purdue University study by Christian Krupke estimated that there was enough Clothianidin on a single corn seed to kill 200,000 individual bees. That does not happen in practice, because most of it is lost into the soil, but the tiny amount that rises through the plant into the pollen is still 7,600 times more toxic to insects than DDT was. 

Another study concluded that the 'half life' of Clothianidin on some clay soils, was as much as 19 years - so after 57 years, there would still be 1/8th of the original neonicotinoid left to poison following plants. And that is from only one planting. The reality is that farmers are planting neonic treated corn, season after season, on the same ground; so the possibility exists that hundreds of millions of acres of US farmland has been permanently contaminated with neonics for decades to come. In other words, if the neonics were banned today, the residual poison would continue to kill bees and other pollinators for many years to come.


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## RAK

He wouldn't be complaining if he knocked the mites and gave them the proper nutrition back in August...
Lot of things in the article don't sound right.


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## borderbeeman

> whats more disgustings than pesticide poisining is Scam articles and Tree huggers falsehood. after reading it, is misses a ton of info, references problems in CA with NO names No credits, no author... no facts. just thory, from someone in another country...... Just as well write how the uptight knickers in the UK were contributing to global warming....Wish the Moderators here were as hard on this stuff as they are other things........this post should be wiped



Your reasoning is so faultless and your concentration on the facts is so accurate, that I'm lost for words. Are you familiar with the phrase 'ad hominem attack' - that's a legal way of saying don't read the message - just shoot the messenger. It's the classic strategy of industry schills. Your last comment implies you don't agree with Freedom of Speech and free discussion?


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## loggermike

The train wrecks in Ca this year are quite real. I attribute them to the drought conditions and poor varroa control. 
Seen this before...

"Colonies under drought conditions can't raise winter bees, and populous colonies of old bees don't survive the winter."
Bingo.


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## camero7

I agree with INFORMED freedom of speech backed by good studies. You've failed on all accounts.


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## jonathan

> Another study concluded that the 'half life' of Clothianidin on some clay soils, was as much as 19 years - so after 57 years, there would still be 1/8th of the original neonicotinoid left to poison following plants. And that is from only one planting.


Got a reference or is 'another study' as good as it gets.
Where was it published and who was the author.

The Xerces Society report, Are Neonicotinoids killing bees, citing an EPA document quotes 148-1155 days for Clothianidin depending upon soil type.

http://www.xerces.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Are-Neonicotinoids-Killing-Bees_Xerces-Society1.pdf

The European parliament quotes the same figure of 148-1155 days

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=WQ&reference=E-2012-008151&language=EN

pesticide info.org quotes an average soil half life of 214 days

http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC40063


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## Ian

when making up an article on bee death, and directly linking it to Neonicotinoids you need a bit of proof to back the story. You sound like your making an anti neonicotinoids article using the beekeeper as the frount. With no facts and no references, might as well just run that in the daily paper. It will get alot of attention there,

just waiting for questions and comments from my neighbours on this one . . .


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## jonathan

Ian said:


> With no facts and no references, might as well just run that in the daily paper. It will get alot of attention there,


That is exactly what happens.
The UK press run the same story 'all the bees are dying' over and over again.
Even the quality press do this, the Guardian and the Independent.

The non beekeeping general public think we have CCD due to erroneous press reports, (we don't), and imagine that our bees are on the way out.
In actual fact they are doing reasonably well in the UK although I expect heavier losses than usual this winter as it has been cool and wet for the past 8 months.


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## Ian

Its very well written , and attention getting, but thats all it is.


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## wildbranch2007

borderbeeman said:


> I'm lost for words.


best news I've heard today.


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## Kieck

> He has issued the article in this way to encourage other bee-farmers to come forward and tell what has been happening every year since 2003. The fact that 10,000,000 colonies have been lost, and apart from Dave Hackenberg, almost nobody has 'gone public' should tell you something about the kind of pressures that are being brought to bear: politically, commercially and socially. -borderbeeman


Quite a few beekeepers have "gone public," I think. Why wouldn't they be willing to report losses to colony collapse (CCD)? So far, no definitive cause has been pinpointed, as far as I know. I've read quite a few accounts even here on Beesource of people who provide information on hives they have lost to CCD or CCD-like symptoms. Hackenberg was the first, but far from the only to report losses. And much larger losses by individuals have been widely reported in the media.

I'm not sure that the losses sound quite so massive when the numbers are reported a different way. (http://www.ars.usda.gov/News/docs.htm?docid=15572) "Ten million colonies lost" attracts far more attention than "11 percent of colonies per year" attributed to CCD-like losses.


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## Stromnessbees

borderbeeman said:


> The article can be downloaded from Google Docs here:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B7FCgF0BwlDGbWhUUGd4ZkQtcWs/edit?usp=sharing


Thank you for the report, Bbman.

I just wish more beekeepers had the guts to write up their story and go public. - But obviously they fear criticism and loss of business. 

A look at this thread so far shows exactly what is thrown at those that dare to speak out. The pro neonic propaganda machine uses it's dirtiest tricks to discredit those who go against the mighty chemical industry, as they fear massive losses when these products get banned. 

A call to all those posters who demand to see the name of the author of the report: identify yourselves so that we can check your credentials!


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## camero7

> The pro neonic propaganda machine uses it's dirtiest tricks to discredit those who go against the mighty chemical industry, as they fear massive losses when these products get banned.
> 
> A call to all those posters who demand to see the name of the author of the report: identify yourselves so that we can check your credentials!


I am not pro neonic. It's just that they are so much better than the organophosphates and,having been a farmer, I know how important insecticides can be. I also have not seen any real evidence that the neonics are that bad for bees, both in my own bees and in studies.

I'm pretty well exposed if you click on my profile or go to my web site. Probably more transparent than you are!


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## deknow

....I heard that the author is Robert "Hughes" Russell.

Sorry, I couldn't resist 

deknow


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## Stromnessbees

deknow said:


> ....I heard that the author is Robert "Hughes" Russell.


If that's correct, then well done Hughes for speaking out!


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## jim lyon

Kieck said:


> Quite a few beekeepers have "gone public," I think. Why wouldn't they be willing to report losses to colony collapse (CCD)? So far, no definitive cause has been pinpointed, as far as I know.


The only downsides might be that a beekeeper may feel ashamed or prefer the public dosent know about their business. The greater incentive was to report it as unexplained that way (up until a few years ago) you could qualify for an ELAP reimbursement if you could get an inspector to conclude that it was in fact a CCD loss. That's correct, folks, your tax dollars at work. If the conclusion was that it was caused by varroa then you got nothing. So it's anyone's guess how many of these widely reported losses fell under some classification of the as yet still unexplained phenomena of CCD and how many were something more closely resembling PPB. There may not be an ELAP program today but the same principle still applies. If one were able to prove any loss is potentially someone else's fault the prospect of a government payment or even a future class action suit might be your only possible prospect for reimbursement. Unfortunately varroa don't have deep pockets.


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## deknow

Ummmm.....so you don't even know where this came from? You claim to have edited the copy from the beekeeper, but you don't even know who it is?

....talk about a "stooge", you really take the cake. Sometimes the facts just come pouring out when you take the time to make a joke 

deknow


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## gmcharlie

borderbeeman said:


> Your reasoning is so faultless and your concentration on the facts is so accurate, that I'm lost for words. Are you familiar with the phrase 'ad hominem attack' - that's a legal way of saying don't read the message - just shoot the messenger. It's the classic strategy of industry schills. Your last comment implies you don't agree with Freedom of Speech and free discussion?



That is the point, there are no FACTS. just pictures, heck we can't even be sure they are dead hives... might just be guys working. Your unable to substantiate anything....... Freedom of discussion is fine. Flagrant lies are another. I live and breath more of the pesticides and Noenics in a year than you have seen in a lifetime..... and my bees do freaking great if i take care of them. 

You really need to look at this months ABJ, or better yet read a real fact page like Randy Olivers. Notice, he sites if facts, and credits sources...... and does research.... Not just " I heard about some guy" garbage.....

This article and post are nothing but anti ______ crowd trying to stir the pot......


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## Barry

Let's watch the (lack of)civility and tone of posts. A shouting match goes nowhere.


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## beepro

I am here thinking, if the beekeeper risk all his finance and time to manage his hives hoping for a profit, how come he waited so late to discover his hive problem later on. If he is not lazy like me as a beekeeper, then he should of known if suspected to send his pollens to the test. Wouldn't you do a hive check or have your buddy to check for once a month if not biweekly? They still need to feed the bees pollen patty or syrup here so a quick check is needed to identify a potential problem later on. A prudent beekeeper can prevent lots of bee problems later on by having an eye open for it. You think he is just careless person to leave his hives there for a few months to come back in February to check them? If that is the case of careless management then he cannot blame anybody. Knowing the health of his bees then he can do something about them rather than waiting too late months later to discover them. By then it is too late.
Now he's blaming on the pesticides contamination from the west. Who knows where his bees got them from and where at? There are many variables like starvation, etc. He need to send his proof also if pesticide is to blame. At least we have a conclusion of his claim. If this is true may it
be a learning lesson for next time. As in any business, there is also risk and reward. Who say life is easy, eh. Sorry for his lost hives though.


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## Stromnessbees

deknow said:


> Ummmm.....so you don't even know where this came from? You claim to have edited the copy from the beekeeper, but you don't even know who it is?


You are twisting the facts here: 

Bbman knows the author of the report, but he didn't want to reveal his identity yet.
That's fair enough, as such a massive loss of hives has huge financial implications for the beekeeper as well as the contractors who are losing out on pollination. 

I assume we will know soon enough, who the author of the report is. 
Maybe other beekeepers want to tell us about their losses in the meantime?


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## jim lyon

Stromnessbees said:


> Maybe other beekeepers want to tell us about their losses in the meantime?


Sure there are lots of stories out there, I recounted one in post #8. Some were exposed to foliar grasshopper spraying some suspect fungicides, both very believable contributing causes in my mind but the biggest thing you need to remember is that there weren't too many horror stories out there a year ago and planting acreages haven't changed much. What has changed, though, is the US went through its worst drought in 60 years. Hives were under tremendous stress, a very early spring may also have been a contributing cause by increasing the length of the brood and resulting varroa reproduction cycle. Throw a few more potential causative agents into the mix that by themselves might not cause a problem like, yes possibly even some traces of neonic laced pollen and the result shouldnt be that surprising. Personally I am surprised that there are as many good bees around as there are when looking back on last year. But I doubt that is really what you are looking for. Seems you are looking for villains more than for answers.


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## SippyBees

Hmmmm... seems a rash of disappearing bees. 3 months in CA... no one checked the hives.... hmmmm... maybe they just got lost and ended up in different boxes by mistake? Hmmmmm.... Don't know but I think it is plausible yes? I have read about someone who has been doing a lot of research and bee rearing in Cali... Maybe they are doing RESEARCH in wayward bees inability to find the CORRECT hive? Like doing research in AFB infected yards? 

yea yea ... I know already... just couldn't help myself.


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## Stromnessbees

jonathan said:


> The Xerces Society report, Are Neonicotinoids killing bees, citing an EPA document quotes 148-1155 days for Clothianidin depending upon soil type.


Do you really think even those figures are acceptable?

Let's just go along with this quoted half life of 1155 days for a moment:

That means that in this soil type half the toxin is still present after three years!

Assuming that there is a noenic treated crop planted every year, the level of neonics will accumulate, and the soil will have to be considered toxic waste after just a few seasons!


Anybody who's alarmbells are not ringing now has got some serious disorder ...


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## Michael Palmer

Stromnessbees said:


> Maybe other beekeepers want to tell us about their losses in the meantime?


Okay, I go first, and then you.

Many of my 35 apiaries are surrounded by corn...treated with clothianidin since 2004...and soybeans. Not 100% of the forage area as some areas of the mid-west. Enough to have reduced my forage acres significantly, and reduced the crop in some of my, used to be best apiaries. I run around 700 honey production hives and up to 1000 nucleus colonies. My average honey crop beats 100 lbs. Produce some 1200 queens a year which I'm told ain't too bad. Winter losses average about 15% in the production hives and less than 10% in the nucleus colonies. Occasionally the mating nucs have issues wintering, as they did in winter of 2011-12.

We had a severe drought in the summer, nucs were strong through feeding time, and had a dozen bees and their queen in November. Sound familiar? I tell it as it is. 

This summer was a good flow all through the season, and the mating nucs looked good going into winter. 

So, where's the CCD? Where's the issue with clothianidin? 

I watched that video. Hack whining more about his poor bees. Well sir, explain one thing to me if you are able being so far removed physically from the scene. Explain the possible effect of a 95% infestation rate in those bees in May 2006, when on blueberries in Maine. In May mind you not October. 95% 
Got Virus??


I'm not saying neonics aren't a problem. Heck, I don't know...do you? Really? I'm managing healthy bees surrounded by neonic corn, and my bees are productive. Now, I'm sure I speak for others here when I say...Don't think that because I question these videos and ask for proof that I'm not concerned. This whole situation scares the c*** out of me.


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## gmcharlie

Michael Palmer said:


> I'm not saying neonics aren't a problem. Heck, I don't know...do you? Really? I'm managing healthy bees surrounded by neonic corn, and my bees are productive. Now, I'm sure I speak for others here when I say...Don't think that because I question these videos and ask for proof that I'm not concerned. This whole situation scares the c*** out of me.



Mike, which part scares you ? the possibilty there a problem or the discussion around it?


----------



## Ian

Lets bring it back to this operator and his die off. Has there been any investigation to what caused the death? If so what have they found? 
The whole story rides on this statement 

>>>Rather they died because of the systemic neonicotinoid insecticides, and other pesticides they had been exposed to back in the Midwest, from May to September, among the pesticide-treated crops of soybeans, corn and other crops.<<< 

Is speculation and assumptions the basis of their diagnosis ?


----------



## Michael Palmer

gmcharlie said:


> Mike, which part scares you ? the possibilty there a problem or the discussion around it?


Systemic insecticides of course. I'm not one to be scared by good discussion.


----------



## Luterra

> Do you really think even those figures are acceptable?
> 
> Let's just go along with this quoted half life of 1155 days for a moment:
> 
> That means that in this soil type half the toxin is still present after three years!
> 
> Assuming that there is a noenic treated crop planted every year, the level of neonics will accumulate, and the soil will have to be considered toxic waste after just a few seasons!
> 
> 
> Anybody who's alarmbells are not ringing now has got some serious disorder ...


Here's an accumulation curve for a pesticide applied at a rate of one unit per year, with a half life of three years. It accumulates but levels off at just under five units, when natural decay matches the rate of application. Depending on how much moves from the seed to the soil and dilution effects as the pesticide diffuses through the soil, having five years' worth of applications in the soil may or may not be a bad thing.


----------



## MichaBees

SippyBees said:


> Hmmmm... seems a rash of disappearing bees. 3 months in CA... no one checked the hives.... hmmmm... maybe they just got lost and ended up in different boxes by mistake? Hmmmmm.... Don't know but I think it is plausible yes? I have read about someone who has been doing a lot of research and bee rearing in Cali... Maybe they are doing RESEARCH in wayward bees inability to find the CORRECT hive? Like doing research in AFB infected yards?
> 
> yea yea ... I know already... just couldn't help myself.


So, they found Robert Russell?


----------



## sfisher

I will be glad when spring gets here!


----------



## justin

why didn't the same thing happen the year before? and the year before that? where the bees in different locations with greater exposure this year? we should be able to duplicate the scenario next year right?


----------



## BlueDiamond

borderbeeman said:


> The neonics are almost always applied as a seed-coating at planting time and the scale of the plantings defies belief. The figures included 92 million acres of neonic treated corn - which is virtually the country's entire corn crop; close to another 100 million acres of wheat, soybeans and canola, and the rest was cotton.


If you had hopped on a plane in London last summer and flown to Minneapolis, Minnesota and then drove a few hours southwest from there into the heart of the most intensive neonic treated monocultures of corn and soybeans imaginable, how many bumblebees, honeybees and butterflies do you think you would you see along the crop field margins? Here is what you would see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZCOJnJU1UE


----------



## RAK

Those sure are some Big Bombus's .


----------



## jonathan

> Let's just go along with this quoted half life of 1155 days for a moment:


That is the upper limit which has been detected in certain soils.
Why not go with the average figure which is measured in months not years?

Still no reply from the thread starter with his 19 year figure for a half life.


----------



## Stromnessbees

BlueDiamond said:


> If you had hopped on a plane in London last summer and flown to Minneapolis, Minnesota and then drove a few hours southwest from there into the heart of the most intensive neonic treated monocultures of corn and soybeans imaginable, how many bumblebees, honeybees and butterflies do you think you would you see along the crop field margins? Here is what you would see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZCOJnJU1UE



This video does show a nice strip of flowering plants with pollinators. 
But it doesn't tell you how long the field next to it has been treated with neonics. 
This might well be the first year, so you would find all the bumbles still around. 

Come back in a year or two and compare, you will be very lucky to see the same amount of wildlife. 

Anybody can go out and visit field margins in areas that have had neonics applied for a few years, they will be very poor indeed. 

Go and check it for yourself, don't just believe what is said on this forum!


----------



## wildbranch2007

Stromnessbees said:


> Go and check it for yourself, don't just believe what is said on this forum!


from bee-l about Mr White and his promotion of his agenda.



Well-meaning exaggeration is common. The Guardian, a pro-environ*ment British newspaper, mangled my parliamentary evidence on moths and beetles to claim that three-quarters of all UK pollinator species, including bees, were in severe decline.




http://www.nature.com/news/bees-lies-and-evidence-based-policy-1.12443


It is orchestrated, Jerry. There are a couple of beekeepers in the UK who look for any study that can be used to promote an agenda against pesticides, then build up a story to feed to newspapers, and circulate them as widely as they can elsewhere. They have no interest in the real position but simply wish to raise worries about pesticides. I know that with certainty because I have challenged one of them on several occasions on UK beekeeping fora to debate the issue and he just disappears, sometimes after issuing insults. In the meantime one of the leading UK newspapers takes the story and the twisted message gets relayed to the public. In recent weeks this story and the one on multiple routes for clothianidin exposure have been misrepresented 


http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/...1=BEE-L&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match;Match;Matches&z=4


Take a look at the last sentence in that message forwarded by Ghislain:

'NB Bayer, Syngenta and their associates are busily savaging the latest scientific report from Harvard.'

He means, in addition to a few others, the people who posted here recently on the Harvard paper. Allen, Dean, Randy, Bill, and all the others, you are now 'associates' of agrochemical companies because you criticised the Harvard junk science. The Bee-L discussions were pointed out to the author of that circular when he posted in various places celebrating the Harvard study as yet more proof of the evils of neonicotinoids, so he knows about your posts. You argue for rational thought, and you get called an associate of an agrochemical company.

This message came from Graham White, a one-man propaganda machine based in the Scottish borders. His posts are all over the internet now, often under the name of Borderbeeman and in some newspaper websites as Borderglider. This Dutch video he is now promoting is a nasty piece of work which, in soft tones, does a one-sided hatchet job on Dutch scientists trying to find the truth in all this morass of propaganda and poor science.

Mr White in his circular even implies that the scientist being criticised in the videos takes research money from Bayer. That is a lie. The TV programme makes it plain that the organisation to which he belongs (it employs hundreds of people particularly in areas such as plant genetics and biotechnology) has dealings with Bayer, not Dr Blancquiere himself. The only scientist in the video who - to my knowledge - has had research money from Bayer is the French scientist Dr Bonmatin. He is the one who 'found' effects at very low levels of imidacloprid when all other studies were saying that such levels were safe, and so he fell out with his funders.

If anyone reading this has any trouble believing how twisted and unreliable the programme is, see the repeating of the scandalous comments made about Jerry Bromenshenk in the third video at 10 min 28 secs. I hope that you have your lawyers at the ready Jerry.

Beekeepers have every right to be suspicious of the agrochemical industry. In the Netherlands in particular there seem to be problems of widespread environmental pollution caused by over-use of these pesticides. But videos like this are nasty character assassinations of people who will not compromise their scientific integrity, and it is an unpleasant thing to see.




http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/...1=BEE-L&9=A&J=on&d=No+Match;Match;Matches&z=4


from the petition to ban chemicals in Britton

Graham White, environmental campaigner, writer, beekeeper 

note: <----deleted note




http://www.biobees.com/british_beekeeping/index.php


----------



## jim lyon

Nice bit of detective work Mike. It confirms what many of us suspected. These folks aren't here for a rational discussion but instead to promote an agenda through whatever means possible. The irony is, I believe, the unfairness will just backfire on them since there should always be caution and concern about chemical use. This stuff only confuses the issue.


----------



## wildbranch2007

Stromnessbees said:


> don't just believe what is said on this forum!


Jim I think stromnessbees said it correctly, I would modify it slightly, I believe what is said on this and most forum's, but I go and check it out(if possible) before trying it or using it.


----------



## Michael Palmer

Michael Palmer said:


> Okay, I go first, and then you.


Still waiting Stromnessbees, for your report.


----------



## camero7

> Okay, I go first, and then you.


I'm running about 50% loss in one nuc yard. Still not sure what the cause is. But it is not within 3 miles of any neonics, has great flora around, and has been a great yard in the past. I suspect ppb is much of the problem. I didn't treat any of these nucs for mites [didn't even sample them] and many got very strong. I believe the mites built up more than usual and there are probably virus issues as well. My other nuc yard is doing well and is similar, so go figure. I haven't been able to pull the deadouts from the yard since it's about 1/4 mile through some deep snow to it. I sent some of the bees to Beltsville for them to check. Be interesting to see what they find.


----------



## Ian

thanks mike ! Lobbyist was the first thing that came to mind when reading the first two paragraphs of that story. They try hiding themselves behind other stories but their writing formula still remains.

Glad to see beekeepers here don't follow stories like sheep !


----------



## beemandan

Michael Palmer said:


> Still waiting Stromnessbees, for your report.


Just remember Michael....only hold your breath until your face gets red.


----------



## Stromnessbees

Michael Palmer said:


> Still waiting Stromnessbees, for your report.


I have no losses to report. 

Neonicotinoids are not used where I keep my bees, and with the exception of one small nuc which died of isloation starvation I have never lost a single colony during autumn, spring or winter, if a queen fails I unite with a nuc. 

The few losses I have had were swarms where the queen failed to mate or due to queens that became drone layers at old age. 

Bees without pesticide challenge need very little looking after (mainly food, varroa control, swarm control), there is no reason why they should dwindle away to nothing.


----------



## beemandan

Stromnessbees said:


> I have no losses to report.


Beemandan reporting:
Same as above quote.


----------



## gmcharlie

You know when i first read this I got pretty ticked that this type of stuff would be allowed on this site. I had hoped that the moderators would delete and ban those that are trying to do this stuff, after all one little reference to sarcasm will got you a slap on the wrist....... but i am at least pleased that almost everybody here is now seeing thru this stuff...... It is actually refereshing to see so many standing up and saying hey, my bees are in this and are fine....... maybe we need to keep looking........


----------



## Joel

camero7 said:


> I'm running about 50% loss in one nuc yard. Still not sure what the cause is. But it is not within 3 miles of any neonics, has great flora around, and has been a great yard in the past. I suspect ppb is much of the problem. I didn't treat any of these nucs for mites [didn't even sample them] and many got very strong. I believe the mites built up more than usual and there are probably virus issues as well. My other nuc yard is doing well and is similar, so go figure. I haven't been able to pull the deadouts from the yard since it's about 1/4 mile through some deep snow to it. I sent some of the bees to Beltsville for them to check. Be interesting to see what they find.


Cam - I know for us in the past we have seen some our Grade one yards, ones that really thrived during the season, be the yards that suffered higher winter losses. We deduce among other things, more bees, more mites, more interaction with other bees afield, more virus, more bees, higher use of stores. I'd be interested to hear what you find? We had one really great yard we no longer use to winter because we realized it was a cold air drain and in an area very near the Catherine Welands south of Seneca Lake. That yard consistently had high losses due to moisture and cold. Have you considered this?


----------



## Kieck

> Neonicotinoids are not used where I keep my bees, ... -stromnessbees


Really? You state that with a high degree of certainty. Homeowners cannot purchase and use formulations of neonicotinoids there? Systemic formulations for pets are not available where you are (think of it: a pet owner puts a "top spot" neonicotinoid treatment on his dog, the insecticide is systemic in the dog, the dog urinates on some sod, the neonicotinoid in the dog urine is taken up by a flower in the sod, the neonicotinoid becomes systemic in the flower, a bee visits that flower to collect pollen and/or nectar ... you get the idea)?

For me, it's difficult to picture a place in industrially- and agriculturally-intensive areas that would truly be isolated from neonicotinoid use.



> Bees without pesticide challenge need very little looking after (mainly food, varroa control, swarm control), there is no reason why they should dwindle away to nothing. -stromnessbees


This statement really stuck in my mind. I keep bees in an area with heavy agricultural neonicotinoid use. I feed only in extreme circumstances, I have not used any treatments for _Varroa_ for a number of years, and I still have not experienced the "dwindling" that is often presented as an effect of neonicotinoid exposure (the "cause"). The care I devote to hives is related more to population management issues (i. e., making the hive appropriately sized for the number of bees in it) and honey or food stores management, especially for overwintering.

What sort of care do pesticide-exposed bees require that bees not exposed to pesticides do not need?


----------



## jonathan

What Stromness failed to mention is that there is no varroa in her area either as Orkney is a varroa free zone.
Leaving aside the neonicotinoids, beekeeping is a lot easier without mites and their viruses.


----------



## Nabber86

It's hard to trust and article that cant even get some basic facts straight: 



> Almonds make up more than 825,000 acres of California’s Central Valley generating
> *more cash than both the California wine and tourism industries combined*.



The forecast is based on an estimated 740,000 bearing acres. Almonds rank as California's No. 1 tree nut crop with a production value of $2.3 billion last season:
http://westernfarmpress.com/tree-nuts/california-almonds-turn-another-good-year




Tourism annually generates more than $75 billion in direct travel spending for the state’s economy: 
http://www.destinationanalysts.com/casestudycalifornia.htm



California wine has a $51.8 billion impact on the state $103 Billion on the US Economy:
http://www.wineevents-calendar.com/california_wine_has_51_billion_impact_on_state

Since when is 2.3 > 75 + 51.8 ?

The un-named eye witness can't even add 2 numbers.


----------



## JBJ

Kieck said:


> What sort of care do pesticide-exposed bees require that bees not exposed to pesticides do not need?


"Pesticide exposure in honey bees results in increased levels of the gut pathogen Nosema"
from: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3264871/

So perhaps Nosema care?

Any sub lethal stress should be relieved at least somewhat but appropriate nutrition to facilitate imunocompetence.


----------



## borderbeeman

jim lyon said:


> Lets not clutter this issue up with facts Ian.


The bee-farmer in question has lost 2,150 hives, and has managed to salvage and re-combine from 2- 6 remnant hives into one decent sized one; by doing this he has cobbled together roughly 900 hives - with which he is trying to fulfill his remaining almond pollination contracts. 

I suspect he has a few other things on his mind right now - like financial survival - as opposed to organising pollen samples to be taken from his dead hives. I have no experience of what a migratory bee-farmer has to do at almond pollination time, but I would assume he is working 12-16 hour days and not getting much time to think about anything else.


----------



## borderbeeman

deknow said:


> Ummmm.....so you don't even know where this came from? You claim to have edited the copy from the beekeeper, but you don't even know who it is?
> 
> deknow


Where do you get this absurd statement from? I know exactly who the bee-farmer is; he's a personal friend who - for the moment - wishes to remain anonymous. Given the nastiness of the comments from people like you I am beginning to think he made a wise decision.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Michael Palmer said:


> I tell it as it is.


Well said Micheal !
Love it, when a hard working keeper tells it like it is, no fluff, just the hard cold truth. Amen to that


----------



## borderbeeman

jonathan said:


> Got a reference or is 'another study' as good as it gets.
> Where was it published and who was the author.
> 
> The Xerces Society report, Are Neonicotinoids killing bees, citing an EPA document quotes 148-1155 days for Clothianidin depending upon soil type.
> 
> http://www.xerces.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Are-Neonicotinoids-Killing-Bees_Xerces-Society1.pdf



The figure of 19 years was taken from the EPA's own document:

*UNITED STATES ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20460 *

Office of Chemical Safety and 
Pollution Prevention

1 
PC Code: 044309
Date: November 2 nd, 2010
DP Barcodes: 378994, 377955 
http://grist.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/memo_nov2010_clothianidin.pdf

*Degradation and Metabolism (of Clothianidin)*
Metabolism in aerobic soil occurred very slowly. At 20°C, clothianidin degraded in two soils 
with a first-order half-life of 148 and 239 days (Hofchen and Laacher soil series), in seven soils
ranging in texture from sand to silt loam with half-lives of *495 to 1,155* days (BBA 2.2, Quincy,
Sparta, Crosby, Susan, Elder, and Howe soil series), and in a tenth soil with a half-life that was
nominally calculated to be *6,931* days (Fugay soil series).* 6,931 days is 18.98 years. *NOTE: this is HALF-LIFE we are talking here! Even if you accept the lowest figure of 495 days - that means that HALF of the insecticide will still remain in the soil two years later; 1/4 would still remain in the soil four years later. If you go with the other figure of 1155 days half life, that is almost four years! So after 8 years, a quarter of the insecticide would still remain in the soil. 

*NOTE 2: *Under European Law it is illegal to license any pesticide that persists in soil for more than 120 days - so how did it ever get a license? Yet again, nobody knows.

The reality of corn farming in the USA is that the same field is being planted with neonic-treated corn, or soya, or cotton year after year after year. So the burden of insecticide persisting in the soil could be truly massive.
If a field is left fallow after a corn crop, it makes no difference - because the wild flowers which follow would still absorb the insecticide systemically, so their flowers in turn become toxic to bees.



From the same document:

"Clothianidin is a neonicotinoid insecticide that is both *persistent *and *systemic*. *Acute toxicity studies to honey bees show that clothianidin is highly toxic on both a contact and an oral basis.* Although EFED does not conduct … risk assessments on non-target insects, information from standard tests and field studies, as well as incident reports involving other neonicotinoids insecticides (e.g., imidacloprid) suggest the potential for long term toxic risk to honey bees and other beneficial insects."


----------



## camero7

Joel said:


> Cam - I know for us in the past we have seen some our Grade one yards, ones that really thrived during the season, be the yards that suffered higher winter losses. We deduce among other things, more bees, more mites, more interaction with other bees afield, more virus, more bees, higher use of stores. I'd be interested to hear what you find? We had one really great yard we no longer use to winter because we realized it was a cold air drain and in an area very near the Catherine Welands south of Seneca Lake. That yard consistently had high losses due to moisture and cold. Have you considered this?


 This was the first winter I used this yard for overwintering. I have considered the cold/moisture drain. It sits on a north facing slope, but is wide open to the sun. Bees have done great there for a couple years. I do suspect mites and their virus issues, maybe nosema problems but most of the bees I checked under my scope had no nosema. Survivors in that yard are strong. Since I didn't treat these nucs [on purpose] I believe they got so strong that mites were abundant and took their toll on the winter bees. Guess I need to revisit not treating strong nucs. I have some weak nucs in another yard doing pretty well. I post the results from Beltsville when I get them.


----------



## sqkcrk

Stromnessbees said:


> I have no losses to report.
> 
> Neonicotinoids are not used where I keep my bees, and with the exception of one small nuc which died of isloation starvation I have never lost a single colony during autumn, spring or winter, if a queen fails I unite with a nuc.
> 
> The few losses I have had were swarms where the queen failed to mate or due to queens that became drone layers at old age.
> 
> Bees without pesticide challenge need very little looking after (mainly food, varroa control, swarm control), there is no reason why they should dwindle away to nothing.


No losses to report? Then you don't have very many hives and you actually take your losses by combining or addressing poor queens. You must live in quite an isolated and nonagricultural part of Scotland. Perhaps on an island?


----------



## Kieck

My main objection to this single-minded focus on a single class of pesticides is that it neglects all of the other problems facing bees and other pollinators.

From what I've observed, loss of habitat is overwhelmingly the greatest threat to pollinators, including honeybees. Finding locations for yards with good numbers of floral sources that honeybees will use, and especially finding locations with a high diversity of floral sources, continues to become increasingly difficult.

I think the widespread use of broadleaf herbicides and herbicides to eliminate any and all "weeds" is at least as imminent a threat to bees as insecticides.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Kieck said:


> From what I've observed, loss of habitat is overwhelmingly the greatest threat to pollinators, including honeybees. Finding locations for yards with good numbers of floral sources that honeybees will use, and especially finding locations with a high diversity of floral sources, continues to become increasingly difficult.


Very well said, Kieck


----------



## Ian

borderbeeman said:


> I suspect he has a few other things on his mind right now - like financial survival - as opposed to organising pollen samples to be taken from his dead hives. I have no experience of what a migratory bee-farmer has to do at almond pollination time, but I would assume he is working 12-16 hour days and not getting much time to think about anything else.


So if there has been no investigation into the death of the hives, how did you come to the determination that it was agricultural neonicotinoid use that killed off the hives?


----------



## cdevier

I live in the center of Missouri and the drought last summer was even worse than the official report. Depended which cloud you were under. It was just too hot and dry for the bees to forage. 
I came thru last spring with 8 of 8 hives and started 12 more nucs during the summer. Bad timing. Even though I fed sugar all fall, they did not store enough to get thru the winter. Bottom line- between robbing and me combining nucs and hives, I think I still have 12 total.

Wish I knew how this "bee-farmer" was able to get 3000 + hives strong for the move to CA.
Charlie


----------



## beepro

On youtube videos, they feed substitute pollen patty when there is no forage available. And also syrup in the cold
weather. To grow the bees even during the winter time is to FEED, FEED, AND FEED! This is what I learn from the beekeepers here. In a warm climate like Hawaii and Florida, their bees will still make broods. For example, I patty feed since Nov. into the early Spring. This is a hive that was queenless after 2 died and only one frame of worker bees left. They are brooding nicely now but still so cold outside. But I am not sure where the bee farmer is from to grow his hives. Might be from Florida I suppose.


----------



## borderbeeman

Ian said:


> So if there has been no investigation into the death of the hives, how did you come to the determination that it was agricultural neonicotinoid use that killed off the hives?


I didn't - these are not my bees and not my experience. This is HIS account, not mine; I merely edited it into the third person singular for reasons explained earlier. Neither does his account say that it is ONLY neonicotinoids which caused this disaster; his account mentioned many other insecticides, herbicides, fungicides and insect-growth-regulating hormonds. The end result is 'pesticide soup' in the Midwest, which he 'hypothesises' led to his bees collapsind in California - 1500 miles away from where they stored the contaminated pollen and nectar. However, there are now so many research studies which confirm the absolutely deadly impact of hyper-toxic neonics, that on balance, he has come to this conclusion.

For the record, Imidacloprid has been index-measured as being 7,600 times more toxic to bees than DDT and Clothianidin is of the same order of ultra-toxicity.

Pettis's work - which confirms that of Dr Cedric Alaux's team in France, has been largely misunderstood - not surprising since the industry brought massive pressure to bear and carried out a full-scale campaign of disinformation about it.

What that research clearly revealed was that ANY exposure to neonicotinoids cripples the bees's immune system, leading to death from varroa, viruses, bacteria, fungal diseases etc - AND LEAVES NO TRACE.

The implication is that there is 'no safe level of exposure' to neonicotinoids. Any exposure damages the bees immune system and predisposes them to die of a whole range of pathogens.


----------



## sqkcrk

Is there some sort of Law Suit involved here? Is that why the secrecy about who this is?


----------



## Michael Palmer

borderbeeman said:


> What that research clearly revealed was that ANY exposure to neonicotinoids cripples the bees's immune system, leading to death from varroa, viruses, bacteria, fungal diseases etc - AND LEAVES NO TRACE.


Well, what you have said here doesn't really make sense to me. If there is no trace remaining, how was it determined that ANY exposure to neonics resulted in colony death?

And since I've already asked once, I'll ask again. How do you explain the fact that my apiaries are surrounded by neonic corn, and the bees remain productive...and alive? Clothianidin has been used in my area since 2004. I asked the applicator what % of the corn in the valley has been treated with clothianidin. His reply...100%

You can call me a shill if you want to, for questioning your hypothesis, but I will continue my questions until you can give me a logical answer...

Considering that my non-migratory bees are surrounded by clothianidin treated corn, why are they not all dead?


----------



## borderbeeman

sqkcrk said:


> Is there some sort of Law Suit involved here? Is that why the secrecy about who this is?


Absolutely not. My friend is just working at his busiest time of the year - on the almond pollination - and in the middle of a financial disaster. He has a whole crew working with him, and when I last skyped him, he was not getting much sleep. We have not discussed in detail, why he wants to remain anonymous for now - but he did indicate that 'he did not want the chemical companies on his neck at the busiest time of the year'. I think that he WILL decide to go 'on the record' as soon as his workload drops off, and presumably when he has managed to carry out any invcestigations that


----------



## borderbeeman

Michael Palmer said:


> Well, what you have said here doesn't really make sense to me. If there is no trace remaining, how was it determined that ANY exposure to neonics resulted in colony death?
> 
> You can call me a shill if you want to, for questioning your hypothesis, but I will continue my questions until you can give me a logical answer...
> 
> Considering that my non-migratory bees are surrounded by clothianidin treated corn, why are they not all dead?


Please read what I said carefully - I said I would not respond to people that I KNOW are industry shills - I was not referring to you. Your question is perfectly valid - and I don't have an answer. All I can tell you is I am surrounded by neonic treated OSR and my colonies have been dying each winter since 2003. My varroa control is highly effective, I get very low counts. My observations are 'fall dwindling' and abnormal supersedure of young, fertile queens.

Here in the Uk bee losses are high and widespread and Chris Connolly's recent study from Dundee University found a geographic pattern; losses were high in the East of Scotland, which is where the neonic treated arable crops predominate, and they were much lower in the West, which is far wetter and mainly used for dairy and sheep pasture. Go figure- as they say over there.


----------



## Daniel Y

From what I have found development of neonicotinoids was in the 1980's by shell and in the 1990's by Bayer. The appearance of CCD as I understand it is supposed to have been in 1996. I don't know the specifics on the wide spread use of neonicotinoids but this broad time frame does not look good for the pesticide. Basically their answer to the question "where where you on the night in question" is they where in the thick of it. They make the suspect list.

Sir where you in the area when the insects was killed? Why yes I was. And what where you doing here? I was doing business with an associate of the victim. Um yes and do you have any weapons on you. Only this neurotoxin. I was delivering it to the associate of the victim. By the way what weapon was used in the killing. Well we have not determined that. no trace of any wounds. Poisoning is pretty high on the list though. So you have no idea what killed them. No none at all. Well I am certain it could not be a neurotixic insecticide, right? Oh certainly not. what sort of person would be foolish enough to think that. You have a good day sir an sorry to bother you.


----------



## camero7

Daniel Y said:


> From what I have found development of neonicotinoids was in the 1980's by shell and in the 1990's by Bayer. The appearance of CCD as I understand it is supposed to have been in 1996. I don't know the specifics on the wide spread use of neonicotinoids but this broad time frame does not look good for the pesticide. Basically their answer to the question "where where you on the night in question" is they where in the thick of it. They make the suspect list.


That hypothesis ignores the recorded almost identical "disappearing disease" and the Isle of Wright disease, long before the neonics were developed.


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## Daniel Y

Camero, I am aware that there are other times in the past that similar events have accoured. I am also aware that most books written a century ago do not include chapters or mention of diseases in bees. One such book directly addresses the issue of diseases in bees bay basically saying they do not exist. Other writing on animal husbandry included chapters on diseases for ay diseases known if they existed. It was as common a practice as it is today. So lack of such information is evidence that there was no disease to write about. Diseases in bees historically coincide with the use of pesticides. So although the entire history of diseases among honey bees cannot possible point at one specific pesticide it does point directly at them as a whole.

This is an insecticide. bees are insects. It is doing what it was intended to do. These pesticides where developed to reduce the impact of pesticides on mammals. bees are not mammals. It is reasonable to expect a product to do what is was developed and intended to do. Any expectation otherwise is grandiose wishful thinking.

This is a product intended to harm insects. that it does so including bees is the reasonable assumption.


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## camero7

> This is a product intended to harm insects. that it does so including bees is the reasonable assumption.


The neonics are so much safer for all of us [including bees] than the organophosphates. They are designed to kill insects that feed on the plant. Their presence in pollen and nectar is a concern. However, I have not seen the massive bee dieoffs that I saw when hives had to handle spraying. It's a compromise, do we want cheaper, abundant food or do we want a pristine environment? I want both but don't believe that is possible at this time. Hopefully the next generation of pesticides will be better for bees and humans.


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## Ian

borderbeeman said:


> I didn't - these are not my bees and not my experience. This is HIS account, not mine; I merely edited it into the third person singular for reasons explained earlier. Neither does his account say that it is ONLY neonicotinoids which caused this disaster;


That definitely was your implication, 90% of your story talked about neonicotinoids and other pesticides relating to bee death, but with absolutely no relevance to your story. Stories like this dont help beekeepers in the very least. I look at you as being an opportunist seeking out others mis fortune to benefit your agenda. You obviously are pushing an agenda boarderbeeman, 

Now, if you were un biased and reporting on the facts, and not drawing any conclusions, you may have gotten a warmer response from this forum. The fact of the matter is beekeepers are scared to their wits end. There are things going in agriculture that we very suspicious over, yet the science does not provide us the answers we expect. We are getting tired of agenda pushers, your SO 2008! NOW we are looking for the actual problems and trying to find solutions. 
We have government working on it, we have in field beekeepers working on it, we have agri business industry working on it, . ! Millions and millions of dollars spent on our lively hoods, to find a problem that is right under our nose. And the research is leading more so away from in field pesticide use. 

Guess what it is Borderbeeman ???


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## Daniel Y

I agree that has been the common thinking. and that thinking is based upon reports. As recently as January of this year those reports are being shown to be flawed. Resulting in some countries restricting the use of some of the pesticides in some countries. so reduced use, a bit of caution being shown by some as questions arise.

Okay so we have a product that was developed and believed to be a better answer. Not a perfect answer. that is well and good. The question is still in the air. Is it a better answer. or dies it have a list of it's own problems just like every other answer has had.

A world needs to be fed. that alone is a lot of pressure to fudge the opinions a bit.

It is also true that bees are never going to be free of harm. Do I think the finger being pointed at this pesticide is being done so with some stretching of the evidence. Obviously to the point of ludicrous in some cases. Bees dying in California 6 months after being exposed to pesticides in the mid west. Okay that is scraping at best. outright harassment maybe. Maybe it is someone with one more scrap of evidence in the fringe of a large pile of more incriminating evidence also. I can't say.

You seem to see this as a better answer. I am not so sure. I think it may be just another brand of poison.


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## Ian

Mal nutrition !


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## borderbeeman

Ian said:


> That definitely was your implication, 90% of your story talked about neonicotinoids and other pesticides relating to bee death, but with absolutely no relevance to your story. Stories like this dont help beekeepers in the very least. I look at you as being an opportunist seeking out others mis fortune to benefit your agenda. You obviously are pushing an agenda boarderbeeman,
> 
> Now, if you were un biased and reporting on the facts, and not drawing any conclusions, you may have gotten a warmer response from this forum. The fact of the matter is beekeepers are scared to their wits end. There are things going in agriculture that we very suspicious over, yet the science does not provide us the answers we expect. We are getting tired of agenda pushers, your SO 2008! NOW we are looking for the actual problems and trying to find solutions.
> We have government working on it, we have in field beekeepers working on it, we have agri business industry working on it, . ! Millions and millions of dollars spent on our lively hoods, to find a problem that is right under our nose. And the research is leading more so away from in field pesticide use.
> 
> Guess what it is Borderbeeman ???


First off - the only 'agenda' I have is that I am a beekeeper and conservationist who has seen 70% of his bees die in the last 5 years, repeatedly. I have also lived on this farm in the centre of a large oilseed rape and wheat area since 2001. This farm encompasses several thousand acres and has many, many miles of water-ditches. In the last 12 years I have never seen a frog, a toad, a newt or a tadpole of any kind in those ditches.
But just two miles away - in sheep/ dairy country - I could be up to my boot-tops in frogspawn in any ditch I choose in a few weeks time. Similarly, we have witnessed a dramatic collapse in the populations of 19 common bird species on almost all arable farms across the UK and Europe. A recent report from the EU Commission says that 300 million birds have disappeared in less than 15 years, from a total population of 600 million.
So: bee populations have crashed on farmland - not on mountain or woodland areas, nor on sheep and dairy farmed areas - bees living there are just fine; insectivorous bird populations have crashed on farmland - not on coasts, forests or mountain areas: frog, toad and newt populations have crashed in the same farmland areas.

So that is my agenda. I want to know why this is happening. The best *hypothesis* that makes sense to me, is the global use of a family of hyper-toxic, highly persistent, highly soluble, INSECTICIDIES that have virtually erased insects from every farm field in America and Europe. No bees - because insecticides kill bees - they are insects; no butterflies or bumblebees, or lacewings, or ladybugs - same reason. No insectivorous birds because insect-eating birds need insects to feed their chicks; no frogs or toads because a. they need insects to eat and b. they have semi-permeable skins and their tadpoles are swimming in a ****tail of pesticides.

I totally AGREE with you that SCIENCE IS NEVER GOING TO ANSWER THIS ISSUE - because the big money running the science is absolutely determined that it will never wander anywhere near the truth. 

But you say you know what the answer is?? 
:
"And the research is leading more so away from in field pesticide use. Guess what it is Borderbeeman ???[/"

Please share it with us. Seriously - if you can explain bee losses, bird losses, amphibian losses - all on arable farmland but nOT on dairy farms or sheep farms, then the Nobell Prize is waiting for you. So seriously, do tell.


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## Ian

>>>I totally AGREE with you that SCIENCE IS NEVER GOING TO ANSWER THIS ISSUE - because the big money running the science is absolutely determined that it will never wander anywhere near the truth. <<<

Thats the exact reason why you posted such an exaggerated story,


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## Ian

>>>he best hypothesis that makes sense to me, is the global use of a family of hyper-toxic, highly persistent, highly soluble, INSECTICIDIES<<<

would of been useful to hear that in your story.
the cause of bee death in your story is YOUR HYPOTHESIS

just a question boarderbeeman, how many times have you spun that story, with a different face? Seems like a cut and paste kinda story. Did the wild life federations get the same story but with FROGS as the frount?


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## franktrujillo

if it don't effect honey bees go and spray some your bees and see what happens "ccd"


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## jonathan

Hmmm..

24th February 2013



borderbeeman said:


> First off - the only 'agenda' I have is that I am a beekeeper and conservationist who has seen 70% of his bees die in the last 5 years, repeatedly.


25th January 2011


borderbeeman said:


> I haven't lost a hive for two years now - but there has been little or no honey harvest for three years.


http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...gn-against-neonicotinoids&p=612263#post612263


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## wildbranch2007

franktrujillo said:


> if it don't effect honey bees go and spray some your bees and see what happens "ccd"


My definition would bee pesticide kill.


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## Scottsman

Anyone consider the possibility of and unscrupulous competitor poisoning his hives ? The losses seem very extreme.


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## hpm08161947

> I haven't lost a hive for two years now - but there has been little or no honey harvest for three years.



Do we have a bit of a wee "Troll" here?


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## SippyBees

He is very fortunate that he only got the California version of CCD.... had he been unlucky enough to get the Mississippi version of CCD... even his boxes would have disappeared.


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## wildbranch2007

SippyBees said:


> He is very fortunate that he only got the California version of CCD.... had he been unlucky enough to get the Mississippi version of CCD... even his boxes would have disappeared.


very good I needed a good laugh.


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## borderbeeman

deleted


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## borderbeeman

Ian said:


> >>>he best hypothesis that makes sense to me, is the global use of a family of hyper-toxic, highly persistent, highly soluble, INSECTICIDIES<<<
> 
> just a question boarderbeeman, how many times have you spun that story, with a different face? Seems like a cut and paste kinda story. Did the wild life federations get the same story but with FROGS as the frount?


Actually the 47 wildlife trusts have had zero input from me or from any beekeepers as far as I know. They refused to even consider neonics as a cause of insect, bird and amphibian declines until just a few months ago. The publication of the European Environment Agency Report - compiled by an expert review panel of scientists drawn from each of 27 different European Member States - THAT convinced them that the effect of neonics was real and that it was decimating wildlife. 

You can read the entire report here:

*http://www.eea.europa.eu/publications/late-lessons-2*

The chapter relating to Bee Deaths and Neonicotinoid Pesticides is I think Chapter 16 and summarises ALL the peer-reviewed studies as far back as 1994 - there are a lot of them.


The Royal Society of Wildlife Trusts published its own Policy Report based on an in-depth review of more than 15 years of scientific research. You can download and read it here:

http://smallbluemarble.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Wildlife-Trusts-Neonicotinoid-position-statement-FINAL-October-2012.pdf

THANKS by the way for reminding me about the frogs - I will repost the above link as a new posting because:
a. It is very, very important
b. This thread is too long and diverse


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## Rader Sidetrack

*Re: Welcome to the most persistent Pesticide Advocate yet seen*

OK, I'll ask myself ....

24th February 2013




borderbeeman said:


> First off - the only 'agenda' I have is that I am a beekeeper and conservationist who has seen 70% of his bees die in the last 5 years, repeatedly.



25th January 2011



borderbeeman said:


> I haven't lost a hive for two years now - but there has been little or no honey harvest for three years.


 Why aren't your "stories" consistent? Is it _that _hard to keep them straight from one post to another? :scratch:




_Just a reminder, anyone wanting to check the accuracy of Beesource quotes can click the blue arrow in the quote box.

_


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## SippyBees

*Re: Welcome to the most persistent Pesticide Advocate yet seen*

Anyone can jump to conclusions and make ANY data or result say what they want. I think most of the heavy hitters in this thread are just asking for SOLID data.... that is ALL.... is that too hard for anyone to understand? EVERY commercial beek in the WORLD is worried about neonicotinoids, or ANY other product that will destroy their livelihood. But to just scream the sky is falling DISCREDITS potential REAL arguments buy the people with REAL data.
The guy in Cali lost 2000+ hives @ lets say $200/ hive value... lost revenue of lets say $150/ hive X 2000 hives.... = $700,000 in REAL MONEY. After 6 pages of discussion about all this are you telling me that some beekeeper lost almost 1 MILLION dollars and has not even had his hives examined/ wax tested/ dead bees tested for ANYTHING? He just decided that exposure to neonicotinoids 4 months ago MUST be the reason????? 
I am not calling anyone names.... but if this is true... he is either a VERY bad businessman.... doesn't CARE what really happened to his bees..... or... is an idiot. If there are other possibilities.... feel free to express them. But if "I" lost $700,000 dollars... I will spend just a few more hundred or maybe a thousand to find out WHY and MAYBE assign some kind of liability to someone other than myself only. 
Everyone here has asked the same question from borderbeeman.... but no answer... just the same industry is killing the world song and dance. IF it is true we DO all CARE.... but empty allegations and theoretical science is not gonna prove anything. 
FWIW


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## Fusion_power

*Re: Welcome to the most persistent Pesticide Advocate yet seen*

I'll line up with Sippy and others. Hard data is needed to prove the relationship of neonicotinoids to the stated bee deaths. What is in the article referenced is nothing but sensationalized gobbledygook. At the same time, I am convinced that neonics are a problem. Just not convinced they are THE problem in this case.

DarJones


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## jonathan

*Re: Welcome to the most persistent Pesticide Advocate yet seen*

There is some evidence emerging that they may be more of a problem for solitary bees and general pollinators than for honey bees.

the whitehorn et al study showed that bumble bees produced smaller nests and fewer queens.


----------



## borderbeeman

*Re: Welcome to the most persistent Pesticide Advocate yet seen*



Fusion_power said:


> I'll line up with Sippy and others. Hard data is needed to prove the relationship of neonicotinoids to the stated bee deaths. What is in the article referenced is nothing but sensationalized gobbledygook. At the same time, I am convinced that neonics are a problem. Just not convinced they are THE problem in this case.
> 
> DarJones


Hi Dar, love your quote of JBS Haldane - a personal scientific hero of mine since I was knee high.

Here is as much 'hard evidence' as you can probably get through in a long winter: download here:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/committees/en/studiesdownload.html?file=79433&languageDocument=EN

DIRECTORATE GENERAL OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT
REPORT: *"Existing Scientific Evidence of the Effect of Neonicotinoid Pesticides on Bees"*


*EXECUTIVE SUMMARY 
KEY FINDINGS* 
 Although bee declines can be attributed to multifarious causes, the use of
neonicotinoids is increasingly held responsible for recent honeybee losses. 

 Neonicotinoids show high acute toxicity to honeybees.

 Chronic exposure of honeybees to sub-lethal doses of neonicotinoids can also 
result in serious effects, which include a wide range of behavioural disturbances in
bees, such as problems with flying and navigation, impaired memory and learning,
reduced foraging ability, as well as reduction in breeding success and disease
resistance. 

 Recent scientific findings are urging us to reassess the bee safety of approved uses of
neonicotinoid insecticides at European level. A current review, carried out by the
*European Food Safety Authority *EFSA (on behalf of the European Commission) will
give new insights into this issue. 

 As long as there are uncertainties concerning the effects of neonicotinoids on honey bees, the *Precautionary Principle* should be applied when using neonicotinoids in accordance with the Regulation (EC) No 1107/2009 [i.e. they should be banned until proven safe]

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PE 492.465 24 
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PE 492.465 26 
Existing Scientific Evidence of the Effects of Neonicotinoid Pesticides on Bees

 Topolska, G.; Gajda A. & Hartwig A. (2008): Polish honey bee colony losses during the
winter of 2007/2008, J. Apic. Sci. 52, 95–104. 
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## SippyBees

*Re: Welcome to the most persistent Pesticide Advocate yet seen*

Jonathan... this thread could have been started as a general discussion about all the studies and experiences of neonicotinoids... and that would have been FINE... am sure this topic has been discussed a bit in the past.... no problem bringing it up for discussion anytime. BUT.. the OP connected neonicotinoids with the experiences of a SPECIFIC beekeeper who had a HUGE loss. THAT is what the thread started as.... but as of YET, there has been NO information that tied the loss to ANY specific cause other than just a wild guess.
In my opinion it MUST have been toxic nuclear waste from the San Onofre nuclear station... who have been secretly burying radioactive waste at the same location as the Beek had his bees. I can give you 1000's of pages of data that show radiation will kill all life. So from THIS conclusion I support that we BAN all nuclear plants and import more OIL from the middle east ... cuz I KNOW you are not gonna stop driving or disconnect your house from the grid. 
HOW FAR do you think you can pull people down the rabbit's hole before they say HEY.. how did we get HERE? 
Tell the beek who lost all those hives to have some tests done.... let us discuss the results here... THAT is what the OP implied from the beginning.... THEN you may have some folks who truly will share your concern.


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## borderbeeman

*Re: Welcome to the most persistent Pesticide Advocate yet seen*



SippyBees said:


> In my opinion it MUST have been toxic nuclear waste from the San Onofre nuclear station... who have been secretly burying radioactive waste at the same location as the Beek had his bees. I can give you 1000's of pages of data that show radiation will kill all life. So from THIS conclusion I support that we BAN all nuclear plants and import more OIL from the middle east ... cuz I KNOW you are not gonna stop driving or disconnect your house from the grid.
> QUOTE]
> 
> you are indulging in 'argumentum ad absurdum' - i.e. - avoiding the serious discussion by reducing everything to a silly and absurd argument. Hey: 'the moon's made of green cheese, the aliens are killing all the bees with their mental waves and the only thing protecting you from the 'mind bending' is your tinfoil hat with the propellor on top."
> 
> I never asked you to show ANY concern, I just posted an interesting eye-witness account from an American bee-farmer, which I consider worth sharing. I think, like Dave Hackenberg's testimony from five years back - that this will prove to be a classic account of CCD induced by months of repeated exposure to neonicotinoid treated corn, canola and soybeans, enhanced and synergised by combination with other tank-mixes of fungicides and cyhalothrin-based pesticides.
> 
> Indulging in 'reductio-ad-absurdum' arguments does you no credit, regardless of what you think. We are talking about the greatest ecological/ bee catastrophe to affect the USA, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Slovenia, Austria, Holland, Switzerland, Argentina, Japan and Australia - since apiculture began. Many of those countries have appointed the highest level scientific commissions which they are able to convene - to consider almost 20 years of peer reviewed scientific evidence of the impact of neonicotinoids on bees and wildlife ecosystems. The result of those commissions, were Government bans on neonicotinoids in France, Germany, Italy - as long ago as 2000AD. In 2003, the American EPA's own *Environmental Fates Division* recommended that Clothianidin should not be given a licence in by the EPA becauseL
> 
> 1.Clothianidin is extremely toxic to honeybees and other pollinating insects
> 2. Clothianidin has the potential to cause serious sub-lethal poisoning of honeybees at extremely low doses
> 3. Clothianidin is highly persistent (1155 days was mentioned) in soil
> 4. Clothianidin is both highly soluble and persistent in ground water - and poses an obvious threat to drinking water.
> 
> So what did the EPA do with its own science division's recommendation?
> They tore it up and gave Clothianidin a rubber stamp license, without even requiring the Full Life Cycle study which the Science Division had demanded.
> 
> Do you think this could have had anything to do with the fact that Bush appointed a string of former Monsanto lawyers and executives to run the EPA throughout the 90s?


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## sqkcrk

Michael Palmer said:


> Well, what you have said here doesn't really make sense to me. If there is no trace remaining, how was it determined that ANY exposure to neonics resulted in colony death?
> 
> And since I've already asked once, I'll ask again. How do you explain the fact that my apiaries are surrounded by neonic corn, and the bees remain productive...and alive? Clothianidin has been used in my area since 2004. I asked the applicator what % of the corn in the valley has been treated with clothianidin. His reply...100%
> 
> You can call me a shill if you want to, for questioning your hypothesis, but I will continue my questions until you can give me a logical answer...
> 
> Considering that my non-migratory bees are surrounded by clothianidin treated corn, why are they not all dead?


Isn't it clear that you have developed clothianidin tolerant bees? Maybe you should sell some queens to Hack and Mendes.


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## sqkcrk

borderbeeman said:


> Absolutely not. My friend is just working at his busiest time of the year - on the almond pollination - and in the middle of a financial disaster. He has a whole crew working with him, and when I last skyped him, he was not getting much sleep. We have not discussed in detail, why he wants to remain anonymous for now - but he did indicate that 'he did not want the chemical companies on his neck at the busiest time of the year'. I think that he WILL decide to go 'on the record' as soon as his workload drops off, and presumably when he has managed to carry out any invcestigations that


Alright. Thanks. I hope he does well in the groves.


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## sqkcrk

Daniel Y said:


> From what I have found development of neonicotinoids was in the 1980's by shell and in the 1990's by Bayer. The appearance of CCD as I understand it is supposed to have been in 1996.


Try 2006 Daniel Y.


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## cg3

Or maybe 1869.

http://www.beeculture.com/content/C...byn M. Underwood and Dennis vanEngelsdorp.pdf


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## Kieck

Could I ask what kind of retaliation from pesticide companies you've experienced, borderbeeman? Seems to me that you are very outspoken in your criticisms, and I would expect far more retribution against such a critic than against a beekeeper who alleged losses on the scale reported here.

I'm not aware that anyone took revenge on the beekeeper involved when a loss attributed to CCD and almost 20 times as large as this loss was widely reported a few years ago.


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## borderbeeman

Kieck said:


> Could I ask what kind of retaliation from pesticide companies you've experienced, borderbeeman? Seems to me that you are very outspoken in your criticisms, and I would expect far more retribution against such a critic than against a beekeeper who alleged losses on the scale reported here.
> 
> I'm not aware that anyone took revenge on the beekeeper involved when a loss attributed to CCD and almost 20 times as large as this loss was widely reported a few years ago.


Personally none - apart from pointed ripostes from the company 'representatives' whose work you can see on this forum occasionally.

Dr Bonmatin in France was sued by Bayer back in 1998 (I think) because his scientific research confirmed the presence of Imidacloprid in pollen and nectar of sunflowers at a time when Bayer said this was biologically impossible. They said that his science was 'defaming their product'. The Judge found for Bonmatin and awarded costs against Bayer. Other French government scientists who confirmed that imidacloprid was killing bees at just a few ppb were suddenly taken off bee research all together, their careers were derailed, they were effectively 'blackballed' for telling the truth.

Please watch this video documentary, it has good English subtitles - and the pictures of dying bees are worth a thousand stories.

It deals with the disaster which struck the French beekeeping industry as far back as 1994 - when over 400,000 colonies a year were killed following the introduction of the systemic neurotoxin Imidacloprid/ 'Gaucho' for use on sunflowers and maize.

What the film reveals is the fact that pbeekeepers were lied to from the outset, about the effect of this pesticide for bees and other pollinators. It shows how the science was ignored, corrupted, distorted and buried for over ten years - and how any scientist who dared to stand up for the truth was threatened, intimidated, bullied, transferred . .. .careers were ruined, people's lives were seriously damaged. 


This is the correct link for part one:

*http://youtu.be/9boueJGtLPY*

This is part Two

*http://youtu.be/XM2Agj68uCk*

Part three
*
http://youtu.be/CC9fWFE8ExM*

Part Four

*http://youtu.be/okA8pxkoXX4*
>


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## Kieck

Please don't view this as an attack, borderbeeman, but, first, your lack of retaliation makes your friend seem a bit paranoid, and, secondly, if I related such details to you in confidence and learned that you had posted them publicly (even if "anonymously"), I would feel that you had violated the trust of friendship.


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## Nabber86

franktrujillo said:


> if it don't effect honey bees go and spray some your bees and see what happens "ccd"


But nobody is spraying their bees, so there is no self induced ccd.


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## Roland

I can support Mr. Palmer's observations. We also have alot of corn planted around our hives(to male ethanol), and see no correlation between corn and sick bees. We did loose 90 percent of our hives in 2005 and 2006, until we sterilized or replace them with new bees and new equipment.

To the OP, can you telll me if any of your friend's hives are painted silver(aluminum paint)? If so, what are they branded? In 2006 there was a batch of silver equipment sold in the Midwest that was contaminated with pathogens.

Crazy Roland


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## borderbeeman

His hives are painted green - and no they weren't his diseased hives that you bought. I asked him.


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## borderbeeman

Kieck said:


> Please don't view this as an attack, borderbeeman, but, first, your lack of retaliation makes your friend seem a bit paranoid, and, secondly, if I related such details to you in confidence and learned that you had posted them publicly (even if "anonymously"), I would feel that you had violated the trust of friendship.


I assure you that everything in my OP was posted with the full consent and agreement of my bee-farming friend.
he is not paranoid, in fact he is one of the most calm and well balanced people I have ever spoken with. He did not send me his original observations 'in confidence' - he sent them with the express intention of getting them out to the widest audience possible. He will be doing more in the near future - via his own public efforts.

As to 'paranoia' - I think you can see by the 'froth on the mouth' attacks of some people posting here, that other interests are determined to suppress any discussion of systemic pesticides as the cause of the greatest bee-disaster in American history. A disaster which is 'ongoing'. I see no signs - apart from the actions of the National Honey Board and a very small number of individual beekeepers, that there is ANY organised response to the current bee-disaster, on the part of the 'official' beekeeping bodies. We are no further forward in actually opposing and stopping the obvious cause of this bee-killing pandemic than we were in 2000AD. There is an obvious reason why we are no further forward; because it is not in the interests of the pesticide companies that you should be allowed to make progress. They are making $billions annually, and American beekeepers are paying the bill in dead bees.

The French however, ARE further down the road, they BANNED the use of neonics on bee-related crops in 2000AD and - though they lost 1 million hives *before* the ban, they have seen nothing like that *since *the ban. Ditto for Germany, Italy, Slovenia . . .etc.


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## Kieck

> It deals with the disaster which struck the French beekeeping industry as far back as 1994 - when over 400,000 colonies a year were killed following the introduction of the systemic neurotoxin Imidacloprid/ 'Gaucho' for use on sunflowers and maize. -borderbeeman





> The French however, ARE further down the road, they BANNED the use of neonics on bee-related crops in 2000AD and - though they lost 1 million hives before the ban, they have seen nothing like that since the ban. -borderbeeman


From some more recent figures, I'm not sure that losses have changed much.

http://www.pollinator.org/PDFs/OPERAReport.pdf

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing in favor of pesticides. I'm simply pointing out an inconsistency here. The report I linked does a nice job of outlining a number of stresses on managed honeybees.

I'm not sure that commercial beekeepers in Europe are migratory like most of the big operations in the U.S. are. Moving hives hundreds or even thousands of miles adds still more stress on the bees.



> He did not send me his original observations 'in confidence' - he sent them with the express intention of getting them out to the widest audience possible. -borderbeeman


Then why the secrecy? Why not put your name on the article as the author and cite the source by name?


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## borderbeeman

CCD appeared in France in the period 1994-97; over a million colonies were lost when imidacloprid was introduced as a seed treatment for sunflowers, which was the main honey-crop in most regions.
Please see this report here, it makes fascinating reading - to see this all happened so long ago in Europe - but is still happening in UK and USA.

'A history of the French Beekeeping Disaster from 1994-2003'

A documentary video was also made of the French bee-crisis - it makes even more amazing viewing.
In the opening minute you see bees actually dying on neonic treated sunflowers - in extreme close-up.

This is the link for Part One:

*http://youtu.be/9boueJGtLPY*

Part Two

*http://youtu.be/XM2Agj68uCk*

Part three

*http://youtu.be/CC9fWFE8ExM*

Part Four

*http://youtu.be/okA8pxkoXX4*


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## borderbeeman

Kieck said:


> From some more recent figures, I'm not sure that losses have changed much.
> 
> http://www.pollinator.org/PDFs/OPERAReport.pdf
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing in favor of pesticides. I'm simply pointing out an inconsistency here. The report I linked does a nice job of outlining a number of stresses on managed honeybees.
> 
> I'm not sure that commercial beekeepers in Europe are migratory like most of the big operations in the U.S. are. Moving hives hundreds or even thousands of miles adds still more stress on the bees.
> Then why the secrecy? Why not put your name on the article as the author and cite the source by name?


 Migratory beekeeping is practised in France but within regions, rather than cross-country. Bee-farming is big business in France, unlike the UK where it is largely hobbyists. French bee-farmers organise themselves around Co-ops - with each town havig centralised honey extraction and bottling plant - and equipment and suchlike being group-purchased. Since neonics came in, they say they have to move their bees to the forests, the hills, the untreated crops - anywhere to keep them away from the pesticides. They are lucky in that France is a really big country, twice the area of the UK and still has very large stands of broadleaved forests (29% of France is forested, as opposed to 12% of the UK).

I was in the Dordogne two years ago and in the town market at Riberac I bought honey from a local producer.
She had 'specialist' - unifloral honeys including: sunflower, lavender, chestnut and lime tree, as well as 'flowers of the forest'. I have never seen such a display in the UK. She said her bees were doing really well and she had no colony losses to speak of.

As to my friend's 'anonymity' - he just has too much to deal with at present. He was waiting for the EPA team to arrive this weekend when I spoke to him, to take samples of dead hives, pollen, bees etc. I did pass on the questions about his treatment of his bees: feeding, varroa treatment etc. He said, "after thirty years as a migratory beekeepr I think I know how to feed bees, treat for varroa and carry out inspections". He said to pass on that he has been 'deeply involved' with some of the bee-research teams over the last six or seven years and his hives have been sampled for pollen residues 'numerous times'.


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## Scott Klein

Michael Palmer said:


> So the colonies were strong in November, after going through a massive drought in the mid-West this past summer. And the bees crashed by mid-winter due to neonics? Sounds about right except the neonic part.
> 
> How about an alternative explanation that seems to me much more credible. Colonies under drought conditions can't raise winter bees, and populous colonies of old bees don't survive the winter.


That would be my guess as well... from my perspective of the 2012 season here in MO. Some queens just stopped laying during the string of 100+ days. Spring was great, but it was a tough summer, particularly for weak colonies.

http://www.climatecentral.org/blogs/a-breakdown-of-record-summer-temperatures/


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## Scott Klein

jim lyon said:


> It confirms what many of us suspected.


Ironically statements like this (regardless of the issue) are a huge red flag that imply that the 'answer' accepted by one person is good enough for 'many'.

This stuff only confuses the issue.


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## jim lyon

Scott Klein said:


> Ironically statements like this (regardless of the issue) are a huge red flag that imply that the 'answer' accepted by one person is good enough for 'many'.
> 
> This stuff only confuses the issue.


Whaddup Scott? You are pulling out 1 line from over 70 posts ago without reference to context? I have decided a much better use of my time and beekeeping experience can be spent talking about actual beekeeping and not debating nuances with the folks that clutter up the forum with this stuff. But to save the folks all the detective work my response was in post #63 to post #62 which was a discussion of the far left environmental movement's methods as made by some of the most respected bee authorities on bee list including Mike Palmer (though he would have to confirm for us if he shares my sentiments on this issue), hardly an answer accepted by only myself if I dare say. I would encourage people to read it and decide for themselves. In the meantime I'm outta here! this silliness has run its course.


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## Scott Klein

jim lyon said:


> Whaddup Scott? You are pulling out 1 line from over 70 posts ago without reference to context?


Nothing personal Jim. My point remains the same, but you just got stuck with the hot potato.

I think the topic is worthy and not clutter, more mainstream than you might think rather than far left and certainly testing the stored pollen would be of great importance.


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## jim lyon

Scott Klein said:


> Nothing personal Jim. My point remains the same, but you just got stuck with the hot potato.
> 
> I think the topic is worthy and not clutter, more mainstream than you might think rather than far left and certainly testing the stored pollen would be of great importance.


For what its worth, as I will most likely just get accused of being an "industry shill" I received test results taken by the state of South Dakota on pollen samples taken from my bees. They showed no detectable levels of any neonics. Also no detectable levels of any miticides. My bees continue to look great and I have at least as many hives as the person that this whole discussion centers around. Hmmmmm.


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## JRG13

I hear some many contradictions on this stuff it's borderline hilarious. Neonics kill then they're undetectable, but yet they're stable in the environment and detectable for years after planting according to others... France banned neonics... usually the opinion is it did not improve much and they're thinking of lifting the ban, but those who oppose neonics with no abandon say the ban was the best thing since sliced bread.... My opinion, when I watch the documentaries and see all the pics of CCD hives, one things always strikes me, they look very 'used', almost filthy which is why when Roland says his problems were solved by 'sterilizing' their stuff and getting new bees/equipment a little light bulb goes off in my head.


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## Roland

Attaboy JRG13, simple isn't it??

I thought I saw silver boxes in the pictures. There where a batch of silver boxes purchased from Wisconsin that where KNOWN to have CCD, so I repeat, since I did not see any GREEN boxes in the pictures, where there any brands on the old equipment that is diseased?

Crazy Roland


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## Adamd

It would be nice to see some facts rather than the conjecture and wishful thinking that was in the op. if so many colonies died, any sensible bee farmer would want to know why. I would have thought that scientific evidence would be plain to see. It might be anti-fungals and not neonics. To me the 'third party' article was somewhat biased and guessing was offered as fact.


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## johnthefarmer

borderbeeman;900277
As to my friend's 'anonymity' - he just has too much to deal with at present. He was waiting for the EPA team to arrive this weekend when I spoke to him said:


> Please let us all know the results of sample analysis. Without any such corroboration of the neonics hypothesis, this sad tale is not going to persuade many people of a clear cause.
> 
> Just wondering whether all samples went to one lab only. It's sometimes safer,but obviously more expensive, to involve more than one.
> 
> A problem with any results could,of course, be that neonics are already known to work at single figure ppb. and that the delayed effects on colony health,through many factors of debilitation, might result in failing colonies with little residue to be detected.
> 
> Nevertheless, I would guess that, in such a dramatic case as this, there should be a detectable level of poison;if only in the comb.
> 
> If no such presence were to be shown, this would remain just an unexplained tragedy.
> 
> P.S. I'm glad you posted this information ,and I agree that Bayer et al. have been characteristically duplicitious in their selective marketing ploys.
> 
> Compare their description of 'Premise+Nature', (Imidacloprid),and its claimed immunity-destoying effects on Termites and their denial of such effects on bees.Followed by their revelation ,under scutiny, that they never tested for any such effects in bees or other pollinators. How poor is that?


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## johnthefarmer

johnthefarmer said:


> Please let us all know the results of sample analysis. Without any such corroboration of the neonics hypothesis, this sad tale is not going to persuade many people of a clear cause.
> 
> Just wondering whether all samples went to one lab only. It's sometimes safer,but obviously more expensive, to involve more than one.
> 
> A problem with any results could,of course, be that neonics are already known to work at single figure ppb. and that the delayed effects on colony health,through many factors of debilitation, might result in failing colonies with little residue to be detected.
> 
> Nevertheless, I would guess that, in such a dramatic case as this, there should be a detectable level of poison;if only in the comb.
> 
> If no such presence were to be shown, this would remain just an unexplained tragedy.
> 
> P.S. I'm glad you posted this information ,and I agree that Bayer et al. have been characteristically duplicitious in their selective marketing ploys.
> 
> Compare their description of 'Premise+Nature', (Imidacloprid),and its claimed immunity-destoying effects on Termites and their denial of such effects on bees.Followed by their revelation ,under scutiny, that they never tested for any such effects in bees or other pollinators. How poor is that?


 How poor is that? 

They produce stuff that buggers up the immune defences of social insects (termites),then don't check whether bees or ants are similarly affected.

I think we're very slowly discovering that they are!


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## Kieck

> They produce stuff that buggers up the immune defences of social insects (termites),then don't check whether bees or ants are similarly affected. -johnthefarmer


Bear in mind that termites are not all that closely related to bees or ants. Eusociality ("true" social organization that includes different specialized castes within the colony) evolved multiple times in insects. Sociality or eusociality does not make them related to one another. In fact, it evolved separately in ants and bees, and at least they are in the same order of insects.

Termites are in a widely separated order from bees or ants. Termites are hemimetabolous (they do not pupate). Bees are holometabolous (they do pupate). Other differences are just as great.

That doesn't mean that neonicotinoids may not have similar effects on different insects, but assuming that it affects them similarly simply because they are eusocial is a fallacy.


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## Stromnessbees

Kieck said:


> That doesn't mean that neonicotinoids may not have similar effects on different insects, but assuming that it affects them similarly simply because they are eusocial is a fallacy.


Neonics are neurotoxins, and the nervous system of bees and termites work on the same principles.

If they daze termites enough to stops them from cleaning and grooming it is very likely to stop bees as well, thereby eliminating their number one defense against parasites and pathogens.

At least Bayer could have tested this mode of working on bees when they developed the product. 
The claim that they haven't points to a case of criminal negligence at least!


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## Kieck

> Neonics are neurotoxins, and the nervous system of bees and termites work on the same principles. -Stromnessbees


Why doesn't that same apply to aphids, then? Aphids are insects, too, and closer to termites than bees are (although aphids and termites still belong to different orders), and aphids are one of the target insects of systemic neonicotinoids, yet these insecticides do not seem to affect aphid populations as soon as four to six weeks after planting treated seed.


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## BayHighlandBees

California had a odd winter this year. A 3 week cold snap in January really did a number on a lot of the hives here.


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