# Swarm Trap Design , Placement , Baiting , everything discussed



## Jadeguppy

Thank you for the video. A couple of questions... 
1. How important is the dead space at the bottom?
2. Have you used old comb? Is new foundation better?
3. How often does the lemongrass oil need reapplied?
4. Why have the entrance on the side instead of the front?


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## SubwayRocket

Jadeguppy said:


> Thank you for the video. A couple of questions...
> 1. How important is the dead space at the bottom?
> 2. Have you used old comb? Is new foundation better?
> 3. How often does the lemongrass oil need reapplied?
> 4. Why have the entrance on the side instead of the front?


The dead space seems to be attractive to the scouts. I've heard others that have trapping success mention also it. 
It makes sense as it gives an appearance of room to expand. 
I've had very good success with this kind of trap so I conclude that it is important. 

Tom Seeley tested side by side traps from 10L to 100L and found that a trap with a 40 Liter volume to be the most successful. 
The traps I make are 34L , they are a compromise that I feel is easy to carry around, hang, and take swarms out of. 
Take your design, multiply it's LxHxW and you get cubic inches , convert that on google to Liters and see where you're at. 
I think a standard 5 frame, D Coates Nuc is about 20L . Much larger than the 34L design i'm using starts to get heavy and awkward. 

I don't use frames of old comb since by just rubbing burr comb and brood comb over everything inside serves the same purpose, without the worry of attracting wax moths. 
When a swarm arrives, they are in already high gear to draw comb and they draw the foundationless frames fast so I figure take advantage of that. Other people do use old comb with success though. 
One thing I can say is that every swarm i've caught, they are always on the foundationless frames first, the wood frames with plastic foundation 2nd ...and full plastic frame last (actually never) so I dont use them. It was just there for the vid . 

I check the traps maybe once a week and I refresh the LGO around the entrance just like i demonstrated in the video. 

The entrance to my traps *is* on the front. What you see on the side is a vent. I like side vents vs bottom ones so there's no worry of putting the trap down and puncturing a bottom vent screen. 
Could have the entrance on the side ? idk...probably doesn't matter but read the article I mentioned, he speaks about the entrance. The overlapping 1 inch holes seems to matter. Seeley talks about the entrance hole. 

Obviously there are no rules...but there are commonly accepted practices that work for people, a few people of which I mention in the video. 

Read and watch everyones stuff. Look for common themes and use them or a combination of them. You also figure out so improvements along the way. 

Any other questions, just ask, no prob . But read the article and watch at least the 2 vids i mention. Good luck Sir !


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## Branman

Jadeguppy said:


> Thank you for the video. A couple of questions...
> 1. How important is the dead space at the bottom?
> 2. Have you used old comb? Is new foundation better?
> 3. How often does the lemongrass oil need reapplied?
> 4. Why have the entrance on the side instead of the front?


In my experience, you rarely need to refresh the lemongrass oil. Zero to once a season. They can sense minute amounts and too much becomes a repellent.


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## SubwayRocket

Branman said:


> In my experience, you rarely need to refresh the lemongrass oil. Zero to once a season. They can sense minute amounts and too much becomes a repellent.


Exactly. Can't stress this enough, I mention this at several points in the video. If I refresh, it's lightly, and only around the outside of the entrance hole as shown in the video. 
Catching multiple swarms at each location doing this. 
Too much Inside the trap becomes a repellant.


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## 220

Did Seely test traps from 10-100l or just 10, 40 & 100l. From the reading Ive done I thought it was the latter and they showed a preference for the 40l over 10 or 100l.


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## SubwayRocket

220 said:


> Did Seely test traps from 10-100l or just 10, 40 & 100l. From the reading Ive done I thought it was the latter and they showed a preference for the 40l over 10 or 100l.


His paper is readily available via google search.

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https://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstream/handle/1813/2653/Bait Hives for Honey Bees.pdf;sequence=2


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## Jadeguppy

Branman said:


> In my experience, you rarely need to refresh the lemongrass oil. Zero to once a season. They can sense minute amounts and too much becomes a repellent.


That is great news. I want to set a trap at my parents house near the National Seashore and replenishing every week is a p.i.t.a.


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## Scott Gough

You have many good suggestions in your video. My techniques differ in a few respects. 

I like the trap plans at horizontalhive.com . If is very similar to yours but will hold 7 frames and is constructed of 1/4" plywood sides. I have always put the entrance on what you call the ends and my entrance is 1/2" x 4". I do like your door closure and use a wood block similar to your method. 

I also like to load the trap with one frame of dark comb in the middle surrounded by foundationless frames. I think the more open area in the trap the better. I have had to fix the comb sometimes when doing it this was but not to a great extent. 

I did not get through the entire video so you might have mentioned this later...Make sure to put nails to secure the frames from moving side to side in the trap. This will keep the comb lined up with the frames most of the time.

Thanks for taking time to make the video.


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## Jadeguppy

SubwayRocket said:


> His paper is readily available via google search.
> https://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstream/handle/1813/2653/Bait Hives for Honey Bees.pdf;sequence=2


Good read. Ty


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## SubwayRocket

Scott Gough said:


> similar to yours but will hold 7 frames and is constructed of 1/4" plywood sides.
> 
> I also like to load the trap with one frame of dark comb in the middle surrounded by foundationless frames. I think the more open area in the trap the better. I have had to fix the comb sometimes when doing it this was but not to a great extent.
> 
> I did not get through the entire video so you might have mentioned this later...Make sure to put nails to secure the frames from moving side to side in the trap. This will keep the comb lined up with the frames most of the time.
> 
> Thanks for taking time to make the video.


 I fill the 5 frame box with 5 frames. I tried 3 and they drew comb off the lid as I mention in the video. That led me to use 5 frames, 3 foundation frames in position 1,3,5 ...and 2 foundationless with wood starter strip in position 2 and 4 . This gives the appearance of empty space and wood that they like. 

JadeGuppy , the LGO in the baggie acts as a slow release so u dont need to refresh all the time. 

Thanks for watching. Good luck all !


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## 220

SubwayRocket said:


> His paper is readily available via google search.
> 
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> https://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstream/handle/1813/2653/Bait Hives for Honey Bees.pdf;sequence=2


Yes and I have read it numerous times, it doesn't answer the question I had about trap sizes. 
It shows that a swarm has a preference for a 40l trap over 100 or 10l size, that given the choice they will take 100l over 10 and that 10 is almost certainly to small to be successful. 
What I was looking for was further research around the ideal trap size. Is a 30l or 50l trap just as effective or even more successful. Probably doesn't make a lot of difference but if you can make a few more traps from the same amount of materials then you should have greater success.

I don't have a lot of swarms here and the only one I have caught this year was is a 5 frame nuc box. I did have a couple of trap boxes set within 200y that I had built based on the recommendations in Seely's paper with regards to size entrance size etc yet they chose the smaller option.


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## JWPalmer

Scott, I use the horizontal hive plans also but I can only get 6 frames in mine. Like you, 1 drawn comb, the rest foundationless with a starter strip. 

220. Read the info at horizontalhive.com Dr. Leo whatshisname talks about trap sizes as well. The 40-50 litre volume seems to be the prefered size. The plans available maximize the use of the plywood. I think the 2 sheets give you 7 complete traps and parts for more. YMMV.


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## SubwayRocket

220 said:


> Yes and I have read it numerous times, it doesn't answer the question I had about trap sizes.
> It shows that a swarm has a preference for a 40l trap over 100 or 10l size, that given the choice they will take 100l over 10 and that 10 is almost certainly to small to be successful.
> What I was looking for was further research around the ideal trap size. Is a 30l or 50l trap just as effective or even more successful.


You either need to look for more studies then, perform your own, or just use what other people have had success with and call it a day. Seeley doesn't say any certain sizes are impossible. His paper is a guide from which you can make an informed decision. People catch swarms with a plain old Nuc or cardboard box. His research showed that 40L was chosen most frequently. I didn't want to lift and lug around a 40 or more Liter box so I settled on the design you see in the video. It comes to approx 34 L , LxHxW then convert Cu inches to Liters . I know of several people including myself that do well with approx this size box. Try to be close to 40 L but don't get hung up in the minutiae. If you find a D Coates plan, u just increase the depth incrementally to get 35 , 40 , 50L . But it's going to get heavier and heavier and more awkward to hang. ------And the guy from Horizontalhive.com , (Dr. Leo Sharashkin) i forgot about him. I've watched his videos and he also shares alot of good info in his video's .


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## Scott Gough

JWPalmer said:


> Scott, I use the horizontal hive plans also but I can only get 6 frames in mine. Like you, 1 drawn comb, the rest foundationless with a starter strip.


You are correct. 6 frames is what I get in also. Sorry for the mix up. The boxes are also a little taller than recommended in the video. I have had great luck with that design.


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## 220

Thanks, Im not overly hung up on size but am looking to maximise my chances of success so any additional info is appreciated.
The traps I have built I stuck with standard 8 frame deep size which is close to the 40l mark, went with it simply because if I find myself running short on equipment I could leave them in the trap and simply add a box if needed.
I have gone a little different and don't attach the trap directly to the tree. I had a heap of short lengths of scrap angle, shs & rhs so made up some brackets that I attach to the tree, sit the traps on then strap them in place with a cheap tie down strap. The bracket arrangement also lets me make use of any spare conventional hives as traps, just sit them on the bracket and strap in place.
I have put some scaffold planks on the racks in the bed of the truck, it gives be a nice stable work platform that lets me easily reach between 10-14' depending on if I am on the uphill or downhill side of a tree. No need to cart a ladder I simply pull up beside the tree and work off the platform.


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## Cloverdale

Rusty Burlew (Master Beekeeper) of Honey Bee Suite swears by Swarm Commanderfor a lure.


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## odfrank

Cloverdale said:


> Rusty Burlew (Master Beekeeper) of Honey Bee Suite swears by Swarm Commander for a lure.


Swarm Commander Lure is excellent, but in my tests I found that if I set out a trap with SCL and another with LGO, both got filled. Most often SCL got filled first, but not always. It might give an advantage in less attractive setups. I always use as many black combs as possible. I never leave empty space so it clearly is not necessary. I will run tests this year in less attractive setups LGO VS SCL. 

I never leave empty foundationless frames, the one time I did the combs collapsed when the catches were moved. I never hang high up, always at a convenient level. I rarely re-bait. I no longer build specialty boxes but use my common size brood chambers and nuc boxes. Deep frames are better than mediums. Here you see buddy Desmond helping haul in a load of catches, 5 and 8 frame traps. You can see my SCL and LGO markers.


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## SubwayRocket

odfrank said:


> I never leave empty space so it clearly is not necessary.
> 
> I never leave empty foundationless frames, the one time I did the combs collapsed when the catches were moved. I never hang high up, always at a convenient level.


Where are you trapping ? Looks suburban in the photo


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## Richinbama

Good video, I'll try this out this spring early. I supposed the earlier trap is out, and baited with lemon oil the better? Also, would it be good to put some sugar water or feeder close to where you hang your trap? Newbee here, just a thought... Thanks for the advice. 1st time to trap bees. Any other info would be nice addition and helpful


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## Richinbama

Thanks for this update.


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## odfrank

SubwayRocket said:


> Where are you trapping ? Looks suburban in the photo


Yes. Primarily in suburbia with a dense population on feral and domestic hives.


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## SubwayRocket

odfrank said:


> Yes. Primarily in suburbia with a dense population on feral and domestic hives.


 Understood . Where I trap, it is mountainous with large tree forests. I trap remote, away from houses or any known hives...in this situation i'm competing against other large dwellings in large trees and unless bees are flying many miles these are likely Feral bees i'm catching...so they may be more selective in choosing a new home...as opposed to city/suburbia where there may not be vast old growth forest with tall tree options. So your low set traps may equal all the other options available in your suburbia area ? Maybe you can get away with smaller, lower hanging traps than in a rural with many tall trees ? It would explain why Seeley and Leo Sharashkin see better success with 40L + traps that are hung higher than you. They both trap in rural areas with forests and tall trees.

Leo Sharaskin compares forested areas to other areas https://youtu.be/Sdr1iRrjA5I?t=10m52s


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## SubwayRocket

Richinbama said:


> Good video, I'll try this out this spring early. I supposed the earlier trap is out, and baited with lemon oil the better? Also, would it be good to put some sugar water or feeder close to where you hang your trap? Newbee here, just a thought... Thanks for the advice. 1st time to trap bees. Any other info would be nice addition and helpful


In the Video I gave a few other sources for further info. Also I forgot to mention, read and watch Leo Sharashkin's video's and articles. I would just use a few drops LGO as I demonstrate in the video...and I would not put feed or sugar by the traps. If you are trapping out in remote areas away from people, you are more likely to catch Feral bees. If you are trapping in a suburban area or city, there are likely alot of beekeepers nearby which means more bees but probably less Feral swarms. If that matters to you, consider trapping in remote areas far enough from any house or known beekeeper. I put traps out first weekend in April ...approx Apr 7-10 and catch swarms around May 1 here on Northern PA , zone 6B . Find what is the equivalent for where you are. Final advise is start getting everything ready now, gear, boxes, lure, locations, permissions...Spring will come fast. Have fun and Good Luck all !


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## Richinbama

Hi subway, thanks for the updates. I really thank you for the advice. I've started to work on things already. Getting boxes ect built next week. As we are down for ice, snow next few days. Land situation is secured. I have 60 a.c.. with lots of pasture, and hills in one place. Also, 11 a.c.. in country, with bottoms, and woods, with pasture. It is a little challenge to get all to gather though. Diligence pays off in the end.


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## Richinbama

I'm gonna try to build a couple of swarm traps, and at least 2 hives. I'll go ahead and do each as 2 hive bodies, and 3 supers each. Also, a nice box or 2 . Man, I saw 2 swarms last year in spring and early summer. Was a sight. I'm sure there was more, that was just in middle of my pasture around barn.


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## SubwayRocket

Sounds like you've got a good spot there ! They say to have traps around a mile apart. I have two spots where traps are only about 1000' apart and I catch swarms on all 4 traps. As for hive bodies, if you have a Mann Lake by you, watch them for economy boxes. The price is so low that it's hard to justify building them yourself. Their economy boxes come in pieces and you assemble them...some TiteBond III and a small nail gun...easy peasy. I think they are about 6 to $8 each ??? They aren't the prettiest but they work fine. Take some painters caulk and seal any loose knots. Other companies probably sell "economy boxes. Good luck bud !


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## Richinbama

No Mann lake around here. 1 or 2 places I've sourced. But all retail. Found one guy that builds all the stuff. He's kinda rough around the edges, but lightly said he would maybe help me out a little. A hard fellow to read, but i think we can get along. I think he does commercial orders only now, and doesn't want the small stuff. But after we talked a bit, he gave me a jar of honey, and invited me back. So, positive as far as I can tell....lol


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## Richinbama

I'm gonna look up Mann lake real fast. Shipping may get me though..not bad prices, and orders over 100.00 ship free. Kewl


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## hankstump

Thanks for the video. Always good to share what we are doing. 
I certainly add some comb so the queen can start laying as soon as possible. Brood will keep a swarm in place pretty well. If there is only one frame of black comb, they aren't as likely to be infested with wax moth. Once there are 3 or more frames of old black comb, I see an increase in wax moths. 
For those black plastic frames, adding another fresh layer of wax will help in acceptance. 
I am using Swarm Commander, and having good luck, but haven't done a side by side test. Maybe this year I can do a side by side test. 
Good luck for great swarm catching season. 

Phil


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## odfrank

I made a huge bait hive mistake and the season hasn't even started!
I MEDICATED!!!!!! With Apivar, and it worked! For the first time in years I have very limited supply of black brood combs from dead hives. 
I just spotted a dead out and it was tagged "USED APIVAR". 2ND one now. Using Apivar twice seems to be ineffective. Just like the instructions said. 
So I seemingly need to set out less bait hives or will have to fill them up with other than full sets of old comb.


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## SubwayRocket

odfrank said:


> I have very limited supply of black brood combs from dead hives.
> ...... need to set out less bait hives or will have to fill them up with other than full sets of old comb.


 Maybe just string a partial piece of cut comb to a frame ...then less will go further ? 
I might try this too. I have 2 deadout hives ...so I have extra comb frames to try some. 



hankstump said:


> Thanks for the video. Always good to share what we are doing. Once there are 3 or more frames of old black comb, I see an increase in wax moths.
> For those black plastic frames, adding another fresh layer of wax will help in acceptance.
> 
> Phil


Thanks , good points !


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## Branman

odfrank said:


> I made a huge bait hive mistake and the season hasn't even started!
> I MEDICATED!!!!!! With Apivar, and it worked! For the first time in years I have very limited supply of black brood combs from dead hives.
> I just spotted a dead out and it was tagged "USED APIVAR". 2ND one now. Using Apivar twice seems to be ineffective. Just like the instructions said.
> So I seemingly need to set out less bait hives or will have to fill them up with other than full sets of old comb.


You normally run full comb in your bait hives? That's pretty awesome.


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## GregB

These performed the best for me.
Previously used by bees.
Just free-standing on the ground.
About 50 liters in volume.
Inside Lang deeps turned 90 degrees.
















Will be building a couple more similar traps for next season (found few authentic empty logs).


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## Richinbama

Hi jade , and folks. 
I just built 2 med. Nucs. 5 frame, with solid bottom board permanent attached. Frames went in like a charm, just need to add frame rest, paint, and make a telescoping cover. Was easy, and fast actually. 
I want to put these out for Maybe catching a few swarms. When is the best time to put these out? I actually thought about putting out my hive stands, 6 concrete blocks, with 4×4 as the base. I live in North al. Decatur and Cullman area. Thanks...
Also, I'll be building my hives this week, I'll be going all med. Boxes. I'm going to make up about 3 complete, 4-5 Boxes each. Just so I'm prepared with equipment. I'm thinking to use Lemmon grass oil in nucs, and hives to see if I can get any swarms to just come on in. Any advice, and comments on above appreciated. 
Richard-


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## JWPalmer

Rich, I'm putting out my bait hives and swarm traps the first week of March. That is a little early for Richmond but not too bad. If you are using your med nucs for bait hives, be sure to make it at least two, if not three deep. Everything else sounds about right. Don't over do it on the LGO. A little (2-3 drops) goes a long way.


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## Richinbama

Will do he, as I can stack em, mount with brackets to each side to double.em


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## Richinbama

I.did.build an as close to a reg. Give setup, only difference is ...inthink. my frames run front to back with the 3/4 entry hole instead of side to side or left to right from the entry.


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## JWPalmer

In the "if you build it, they will come" dept., I spent the better part of the day building hive components myself. Any unused equipment will be set up as bait hives. Medium over deep setup with an entrance reducer. I think I may have a mental issue. Building hives is fun and I can't seem to stop. Trying now to convince myself that 20 nucs is enough.


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## Richinbama

Lol, I hear you. After I build a few.. I may try to mass produce a few for others. It's very easy to do, and addictive as well.


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## Richinbama

I did build the nucs boxes with butt joints, but i used titebond 2 , and caulked every seam, crack, knot up well. I'll do 2 coats primer, and 2 coats in semi gloss exterior paint. I have an abundance, as I do custom painting, as well as home repair/remodels. 
Question... on the bottom board, should I paint the entire inside bottom, or just lip inside a few inches?


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## dux

Following Rocket's guidance and starting with the D. Coats nuc plans here http://www.beesource.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/5framenuc_coates.pdf

I developed this cut-sheet which should let you cut 3 traps from a single 4'x8' sheet of 1/2" plywood.
Caveat: It doesn't take the saw-kerf width into account, so measure twice, cut once.

I haven't tried this yet, so if you find errors, please let me know and i'll fix them...


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## soarwitheagles

Branman said:


> In my experience, you rarely need to refresh the lemongrass oil. Zero to once a season. They can sense minute amounts and too much becomes a repellent.





SubwayRocket said:


> Exactly. Can't stress this enough, I mention this at several points in the video. If I refresh, it's lightly, and only around the outside of the entrance hole as shown in the video.
> Catching multiple swarms at each location doing this.
> Too much Inside the trap becomes a repellant.


I beg to differ with ya! Too much swarm lure acts as a repellent? I suppose that depends upon your definition of too much!

Swarm traps left more than a week without replenishing the lure rarely catch any swarms at all here. And I learned this after two years of catching swarms. So we are experiencing exactly opposite of what you guys are declaring!

For the first time ever, we began to bait our swarm traps with 5-6 times MORE lure than previous attempts...and the results were nothing less than amazing...

Up to 10 swarms per day. And no, I am not exaggerating!

I now spray 3 sprays of Swarm Commander, 6 drops of LO. 6 drops of Ebay lure. And finally, two Q-tips loaded with the weird ebay lure that is found in those quarter coin size containers that have wax in the lure. We noticed a massive increase of catching swarms here after increasing the queen lure.

We replenish the queen swarm lure on a _weekly basis_ or we see a massive DECREASE in the number of swarms we catch.

We use 8-10 frame boxes with only 4 frames of super dark comb per box, but ya gotta remove the swarms within 1-2 days or deal with the free hanging foundation loaded with honey, eggs, and larvae.

































Results?

The photos should speak for themselves!

Good luck to all of you!

Soar


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## GregB

soarwitheagles said:


> The photos should speak for themselves!
> 
> Soar


Your photos clearly show that the swarms build combs OUTSIDE of your traps.
Sure, you go them attracted TO the box.
But on INSIDE the box. 


PS: still works, but why the mess?


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## soarwitheagles

GregV said:


> Your photos clearly show that the swarms build combs OUTSIDE of your traps.
> Sure, you go them attracted TO the box.
> But on INSIDE the box.
> 
> 
> PS: still works, but why the mess?


Greg, great questions!

1. Many of the swarms we catch are what we call monster swarms. So they will come in like a large freight train and the numbers are so large they will not all fit into the swarm box. Not all swarms are monster swarms, but many are. Yes, a few swarms land on the outside of the box and remain there for days if we do not box em' up quick.

2. Yes, this is the first year we see swarms landing and building comb outside the box. And they will build comb within hours. The reason why? I have no clue whatsoever. None built comb outside the box last year!

3. Most swarms here will land on the box, then parade in through the hole into the box.

4. I am not joking...I tried the six times more lure just as an experiment and I tell you, it was the most swarms we ever caught in one day [I hardly call that a repellent].

5. Last, I was terribly misinformed...I thought most of our swarms are coming from commercial bee yards. I just found out there aren't any nearby commercial bee yards nor were there any last year.

What does this tell me? It tells me I still have no clue what I am doing and that I know very, very little about bee behavior. It tells me not all bees follow fellow beekeepers declarations and protocols and that some of those declarations are terribly inaccurate. It tells me I can learn a lot of good info from my fellow beekeepers here at BS but that I need to be very, very careful what I read at Bee Source and not believe every report I read!

Oh my!


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## VaJim

Good discussion and tips. I've got 3 traps set since March 31. Using LGO & SC. I've seen some a little activity, but no swarms. I think the biggest problem here (SE Virginia) is the temps. Although we've had a few days about 80, most have been in the 60's & 70's with high winds and rain. The SC label says to re-bait once a week or as needed. Will probably re-bait this Wed as that will be a week.


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## odfrank

Swarms not entering traps is caused by overbaiting. I caught a 5 frame swarm last week using SCL that had been only applied once six weeks ago.
Eagles caught six swarms in one day because it was a swarmy day, not because of overbaiting. The pictures show that all were repelled by excess bait.


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## soarwitheagles

VaJim said:


> Good discussion and tips. I've got 3 traps set since March 31. Using LGO & SC. I've seen some a little activity, but no swarms. I think the biggest problem here (SE Virginia) is the temps. Although we've had a few days about 80, most have been in the 60's & 70's with high winds and rain. The SC label says to re-bait once a week or as needed. Will probably re-bait this Wed as that will be a week.


Jim,

To everything there is a season...

Here, the swarms have seasons or spurts. There are times when I will not see a swarm or catch a swarm for weeks. Then, there are spurts when we will bait traps at 10 pm, and every trap will have a swarm by noon the next day. It really is amazing. You will see the scout bees on the traps by 9-10 am, and an hour or two later you will here the large buzzing sound and here they come!

Another thing that amazes me: I will place several swarm traps on the east side of our property [afternoon sun] and not one swarm for weeks. I placed traps on the west side of the property [morning sun], and every trap has a swarm by noon. Do the same exact thing the very next day, and same exact results and I have no clue why. Also, JRG placed traps in the deep forest here at our place, almost no swarms [he caught one last week after several weeks of no swarms].

I know very, very little about the science of bee behavior. I am trying to learn more every day, but they keep doing stuff that leaves me scratching my head...

My only regret is that I did not have 20+ traps to hang when the bees come down our "swarm ally"! Presently we are working on producing 20 more swarm traps to use when the swarms come in like crazy...

Patience son!


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## soarwitheagles

odfrank said:


> Swarms not entering traps is caused by overbaiting. I caught a 5 frame swarm last week using SCL that had been only applied once six weeks ago.
> Eagles caught six swarms in one day because it was a swarmy day, not because of overbaiting. The pictures show that all were repelled by excess bait.


Hmmmm...well Frank, you been catching swarms since before I was born, so....

I suppose you just may be right...

Are you saying they smell the lure, arrive to the trap, but hang out on the outside because the scent is too strong?

How odd and thanks for being so frank....


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## VaJim

soarwitheagles said:


> Jim,
> 
> To everything there is a season...
> 
> Here, the swarms have seasons or spurts. There are times when I will not see a swarm or catch a swarm for weeks. Then, there are spurts when we will bait traps at 10 pm, and every trap will have a swarm by noon the next day. It really is amazing. You will see the scout bees on the traps by 9-10 am, and an hour or two later you will here the large buzzing sound and here they come!
> 
> Another thing that amazes me: I will place several swarm traps on the east side of our property [afternoon sun] and not one swarm for weeks. I placed traps on the west side of the property [morning sun], and every trap has a swarm by noon. Do the same exact thing the very next day, and same exact results and I have no clue why. Also, JRG placed traps in the deep forest here at our place, almost no swarms [he caught one last week after several weeks of no swarms].
> 
> I know very, very little about the science of bee behavior. I am trying to learn more every day, but they keep doing stuff that leaves me scratching my head...
> 
> My only regret is that I did not have 20+ traps to hang when the bees come down our "swarm ally"! Presently we are working on producing 20 more swarm traps to use when the swarms come in like crazy...
> 
> Patience son!



Thanks.....I'll continue to hang in there. Once again the temps have turn cooler. Right now in the beeyard it's about 59 degrees (F). I have a hunch that once the temps do warm/heat up, we'll see lots of swarms.


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## odfrank

soarwitheagles said:


> Are you saying they smell the lure, arrive to the trap, but hang out on the outside because the scent is too strong?


When I was single between marriages, I ended several blind dates within the first half hour because I was asphyxiating on the woman's excess perfume.
The swarm is attracted by the scent, but they can't breath inside because the smell is so strong. I had three hanging from the bottom two years ago because I used both LGO and SCL. I only rarely re-bait.I caught this one last week six weeks after one dose of lure.


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## soarwitheagles

odfrank said:


> When I was single between marriages, I ended several blind dates within the first half hour because I was asphyxiating on the woman's excess perfume.
> The swarm is attracted by the scent, but they can't breath inside because the smell is so strong. I had three hanging from the bottom two years ago because I used both LGO and SCL. I only rarely re-bait.I caught this one last week six weeks after one dose of lure.


Thank you Frank for the pertinent information!

Please help us understand how you made those wire springs to hold your lids down! Where did you purchase them and how well do they work?


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## Charlie B

It should be noted however that Ordorous Ollie has a very sensitive nose and doesn’t even want to ride in my truck because of my coconut air freshener. Could he be projecting this malidy on honeybees?

Could it be that the several blind dates that he so rudely ended had an appropriate amount of fragrance and it was just him?:scratch:

I have a feeling those blind dates were literally blind!!!


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## IAmTheWaterbug

soarwitheagles said:


> Hmmmm...well Frank, you been catching swarms since before I was born, so....
> 
> I suppose you just may be right...
> 
> Are you saying they smell the lure, arrive to the trap, but hang out on the outside because the scent is too strong?


Sounds like you could have good success with an excessive amount of lure outside the box with a modest amount of lure inside the box.


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## soarwitheagles

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> Sounds like you could have good success with an excessive amount of lure outside the box with a modest amount of lure inside the box.


I AM, I am not sure what to believe...trying to accept good advice from beeks that know a whole lot more than I, but dang, can't argue with success!

I have decided to do an experiment this weekend...

Here is what I plan on doing:

1. Set up a few swarm traps with NO NEW LURE.
2. Set up a few swarm traps with a little bit of lure.
3. Set up a few swarm traps with massive lure.
4. JRG is gonna bring a new type of swarm trap and we are gonna try that too.
5. I will set up nearly all the swarm traps in what we call our "Swarm Alley." Then, we will see which trap does the best.

Part of me hopes I can flip odfrankie the bird after catching most swarms in the traps with the most lure...but please don't tell him I said so...

On the other hand, I think it is possible odfrank is right...for he was catching swarms when I was still a little polliwog swimming in my dad's reproductive system...


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## clong

soar,

I have out 7 traps right now. I took one that I pass by every weekday and attached an open baggie with lure to the strap holding the box. The baggie contains a rag infused with two pumps of Swarm Commander, and 5 drops of LGO.
No scouts yet.

I am thinking of setting up a second trap the same way.


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## Charlie B

soarwitheagles said:


> I AM, I am not sure what to believe...
> 
> Part of me hopes I can flip odfrankie the bird after catching most swarms in the traps with the most lure...but please don't tell him I said so.....


:applause:


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## Michael Bush

I found too much drives them off. If you feel the need to use extra swarm lure put it on the outside of the trap. Put four drops or so inside and six or so outside.


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## Charlie B

Odorous Ollie and I are in competition once again in a bee barren Redwood forest. More scouts on his than mine last time I checked. His is the goofy looking sliver spray painted nuc on the left.


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## IAmTheWaterbug

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> Sounds like you could have good success with an excessive amount of lure outside the box with a modest amount of lure inside the box.


So I'm trying this now. I shook the box out at my bee yard and left the site vacant for a few days to get rid of all the stragglers, but now the trap is reset:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIVY11504PcY2sy2qpRhiMg/live[/video]

I put 2 drops inside the box and 2 drops on cotton balls inside a closed ziploc a month ago, and I didn't refresh that this morning.

But I did sprinkle 8-10 drops outside the box, and i had scouts within an hour of doing that. It's overcast today, but it should be nice and sunny the next two days. Watch that camera!


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## SubwayRocket

How's everyone doing so far ? I'm just starting to see scouts here in Northeast PA .


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## clong

The swarms have arrived in Central Virginia. I've caught 3 swarms in 3 days. One, on the road, one on the outside of the swarm trap, and one, uh, my own. They apparently didn't like the experimental hive I put them in.

To follow up on Soarwitheagles and mega-baiting, I put extra lure in two traps: One, with SC spritzed right in the entrance and in a baggie hung on the outside of the trap. The second with extra lure on the outside of the trap, only. The first one caught, but sure enough the upside down bee pyramid formed on the bottom of the trap. I'm happy to have the bees, but it sure was a lot of work! I am going to continue trying extra lure under the ratchet strap on the outside of the box. I put a baggie with a rag containing about 5 drops of LGO, and one pump of SC with the open end down under the strap.

To the veteran trappers: Do you think the extra lure on the outside of a box casts a wider net, attracting more scouts to check out a particular trap? Is just more irresistible, like freshly baked bread is to us? Or is it just chance?

See posts #118 & #120 for pics:


http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?321131-Virginia&p=1627553#post1627553


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## soarwitheagles

clong said:


> soar,
> 
> I have out 7 traps right now. I took one that I pass by every weekday and attached an open baggie with lure to the strap holding the box. The baggie contains a rag infused with two pumps of Swarm Commander, and 5 drops of LGO.
> No scouts yet.
> 
> I am thinking of setting up a second trap the same way.


clong,

Many of the beekeepers here are light years ahead of me in knowledge, experience, and tremendous success with honey bees. So I am trying not to step on toes or refute or contradict what they are saying...

But I also must be totally honest...

In my specific situation, I am experiencing some very different results than what the experts are saying. I am not gonna say they are wrong because I have no business saying that with me being a bee hobbist for less than three years, and some of these guys are 40+ years with full time working with the bees.

I cannot give a clear answer as to why we are experiencing success in capturing large numbers of swarms.

Last year, many people told us it was due to having a large bee organization nearby. So I believed that. But then I discovered there are no large bee organizations nearby. So that shot that theory down. 

We live surrounded by a significantly large eucalyptus forest. So then people told us we are capturing so many swarms because the feral hives live in the eucalyptus forest. Then a person with a lot of knowledge and insights told us that honey bees rarely live in eucalyptus forests because there aren't very many hollowed out trees. So that shot that theory down.

Others [myself included] thought I am catching my own beeyard swarms. But we keep finding all my hives still have their marked queen, and every swarm we have caught has a large beautiful, _unmarked_ queen. So this shoots down that theory too.

I have no clue why we can place 5 swarm traps at 10 pm [I just finished 5 more swarm traps 30 minutes ago], then, wake up, see 200-300 scout bees before 10 am, then before noon, we hear that beautiful noise that we have come to call the honey bee freight train! We have placed 5 swarm traps during the evening, then, have 5 new swarms before 2 pm the next day.

OdFrankieBoy and many others say too much lure is detrimental [acts as a repellant]. 

Frank says he does not bait his traps even after several months...

Well, for us, that simply does not work! I tested this theory by leaving some swarm traps for weeks and some for months...and not one swarm caught. And it was frustrating to me too.

Then I began to load the traps with lure, and within minutes the scout bees are all over the trap, within hours, here comes the army of bees...and this has been my experience over, and over, and over again.

If I had hung 20+ swarm traps weekly since April, I would presently be well over 100 swarms caught. Heck there have been days when we see or hear 10+ swarms per day and no, I am not exaggerating.

My biggest problem has been not being able to build the boxes, frames, covers, bottoms, and stands fast enough to house all the swarms.

*I am posting a pic below that shows a swarm that arrived before noon today. I did an experiment by loading it with lots of lure, placing the trap near our AG building, with workers walking by every few minutes. Nearby, I left 3 swarm traps that had not been baited in weeks.

Sure enough, hundreds of scout bees before 9 am. My workers commented on it. I told them I was hoping they would see their very first swarm. Within two hours, we heard the roar. I couldn't see them at first. One of my workers shouted, pointed up, and there they were, descending from about 75 feet up. The workers got a real kick out it and took selfies too.

And this swarm did not remain long on the outside of the box...within two hours, 90% poured though the 1" hole and remained inside the box until we housed them around 4pm today.*

I have a deep respect for people like Charlie B, OdFrank, Michael Bush, etc. and I have learned so very, very much from people like this. BUT, in this given situation, we am experiencing something quite outside the norm.

For now, I will continue to use copious amounts of lure scent [8-16 drops or sprays].

Hope this helps!



SubwayRocket said:


> How's everyone doing so far ? I'm just starting to see scouts here in Northeast PA .


We had a slight lull in the swarms when the weather cooled and the rain arrived, but that was weeks ago. Everything right back up to speed again now.








Finally, here is a pic of another swarm that landed yesterday on a eucalyptus tree only 15 ft from one of our buildings. It was about 15-20 up. I was concerned that I might fall if I climbed up to retrieve it. I was gonna try with a vacuum cleaner but I am not sure how to do it.

Today, immediately after catching the other swarm, this tree swarm took off and headed right into the deep forest and we never saw it again.


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## odfrank

>OdFrankieBoy and many others say too much lure is detrimental [acts as a repellant]. 

Why do you to use a derogatory nick name for me? All I did was give you advice. We did not say that too much lure acts as a repellent. We said we attribute swarms hanging from the bottom of traps because too much lure has been used. Obviously they arrived, so it did not repel them. It just was overpowering fro them to stay inside. 
How many have you caught to date this season using the heavy lure technique?


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## clong

soarwitheagles said:


> I have no clue why we can place 5 swarm traps at 10 pm [I just finished 5 more swarm traps 30 minutes ago], then, wake up, see 200-300 scout bees before 10 am, then before noon, we hear that beautiful noise that we have come to call the honey bee freight train! We have placed 5 swarm traps during the evening, then, have 5 new swarms before 2 pm the next day.


Has anyone ever looked into a hive that is being heavily scouted? 

On my recent catch, the trap hosts reported seeing a lot of scouts around 9AM, but it was a few days after the extra lure was added. Upon investigating that afternoon around 4PM, there were about 20 bees all around the trap and entrance, in a manic state. There weren't any bees wrestling at the entrance. I raised the lid to take a look. There were 50+ bees all buzzing around in the box, with 5-6 headfirst in the cells. Same crazy behavior, kind of like a cat with catnip. At the time, I assumed there was residual honey left in the comb. Could this behavior be due to too much lure? Or is that what always goes on in trap? Anyway, the swarm arrived at 6:30PM.


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## soarwitheagles

odfrank said:


> >OdFrankieBoy and many others say too much lure is detrimental [acts as a repellant].
> 
> Why do you to use a derogatory nick name for me? All I did was give you advice. We did not say that too much lure acts as a repellent. We said we attribute swarms hanging from the bottom of traps because too much lure has been used. Obviously they arrived, so it did not repel them. It just was overpowering fro them to stay inside.
> How many have you caught to date this season using the heavy lure technique?


Frank,

I wasn't aware that you would consider frankieboy derogatory...so sorry, I apologize! Let me know how you would like me to address you and I will be happy to do so...and I also promise to not flip the bird too!

I lost count after 30 swarms frank. I sincerely believe we could have caught between 100-200 swarms if I had only been better prepared with boxes, lids, and bottoms. I have had to leave some swarms in the traps for up to three weeks due to lack of time or lack of boxes to house them.

Hope this helps!

Frank, the bees did enter the trap yesterday and the trap had fresh, 8+ drops or spray of lure. I am using 4 types of lure in each trap now.


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## odfrank

>I had only been better prepared with boxes, lids, and bottoms. I have had to leave some swarms in the traps for up to three weeks due to lack of time or lack of boxes to house them

You do realize that instead of building special "traps", you could trap in standard boxes with standard bottoms and tops?


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## IAmTheWaterbug

odfrank said:


> >I had only been better prepared with boxes, lids, and bottoms. I have had to leave some swarms in the traps for up to three weeks due to lack of time or lack of boxes to house them
> 
> You do realize that instead of building special "traps", you could trap in standard boxes with standard bottoms and tops?


Yes, especially if you have such a high percentage of captures.


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## JWPalmer

Soar, personally I think you owe Ollie a real apology, not that " I'm sorry you're offended" nonsense. I would be a little peeved also. As for the use of lure, whatever works for you. Sounds like you are staying busy. Many of us could only hope for a portion of the success you are enjoying.


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## soarwitheagles

odfrank said:


> >I had only been better prepared with boxes, lids, and bottoms. I have had to leave some swarms in the traps for up to three weeks due to lack of time or lack of boxes to house them
> 
> You do realize that instead of building special "traps", you could trap in standard boxes with standard bottoms and tops?





IAmTheWaterbug said:


> Yes, especially if you have such a high percentage of captures.


Yes gentlemen, but I did not figure that out until recently. Lately, along with the traps I have been using the eight and ten frame boxes with a piece of 3/8" ply fastened to the top and the bottom. Also drilled a 1" hole in front. Then I attached 1/2" wire mesh on the inside to keep the darn mice from entering the traps and causing havoc. Finally, trying to install those stainless steel round discs so I can seal the trap after the catch.

Yesterday for the very first time, my wife had the wonderful idea of taking extra wax and plugging the holes before we removed the traps. It worked well.

I told my wife yesterday I wish we had simply built 50 boxes drilled the holes, attached the ply on the top and bottom, and hung them way back in April. The good news is we are now prepared for this for next year.

BTW, for the first time since the rain, today, the 100's of scout bees are NOT hammering the traps as they have for weeks on end. So now I suspect the swarm season may be winding down. Last year it was crazy good, then stopped for nearly one month, then kicked in ferociously for another month. I am not sure if we will have a second swarm cycle this year...

I am still a total rookie compared to most of you. It was not until yesterday I figured out how to save massive time...my wife and I suited up, then drove our truck to each swarm trap, loaded all traps, drove them to the bee yard, housed all traps, then rebaited all traps, loaded in the truck, then off we went to hang them again. Kinda embarrassed to tell you we were processing only one trap at a time for the last two years...in some areas, it takes me a while to catch on...

One of the most important discoveries for me is to NOT leave the swarm in the trap for weeks on end. Yesterday we spent considerable time cutting off comb filled with eggs, larvae and honey, then reattaching them to empty frames with rubber bands. We only put 4 frames in each trap due to the weight issues, so the when the bees are left in the trap during a large flow, they build their own foundation without frames. On one hand, it is beautiful, but also can be a bit messy too and requires time to cut out and attach the comb...


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## gww

Soar...
I don't know if you would consider this an improvement but, I don't use the little metal circle thingys to close the entrance. I don't keep mice out well either but did have a swarm move in a trap that had a nest in it. I use all kinds of configurations for traps including adding skirts to make boxes bigger. My favorite is to just build deeps and then if I need to use them for a hive, just cut them down to mediums which is what I use on my hives. So back to the entrance closer metal thingy. I have normal hive entrances and holes and so all my traps are not the same. I used to incorperate a way to close those up. Now I just use stiff window screen that is a little bigger then any entrance I might have. I can then just stick this in any size hole and it sorta jams its self so that it does not come out easy. As long as I got a little peice of screen, I can close anything up and it still lets a little air flow in. Might be stupid but thought I would mention it.
Cheers
gww


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## IAmTheWaterbug

clong said:


> Has anyone ever looked into a hive that is being heavily scouted?


I bought myself another security camera with IR illuminators, plus some glass squares, so I'm going to enhance my swarm trap to do exactly this.

Of course I should have done this a few days ago, because I just trapped another swarm this morning .

But now I get a chance to re-set it fresh again, with an inside view.


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## IAmTheWaterbug

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> So I'm trying this now. I shook the box out at my bee yard and left the site vacant for a few days to get rid of all the stragglers, but now the trap is reset:
> 
> [video]https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIVY11504PcY2sy2qpRhiMg/live[/video]
> 
> I put 2 drops inside the box and 2 drops on cotton balls inside a closed ziploc a month ago, and I didn't refresh that this morning.
> 
> But I did sprinkle 8-10 drops outside the box, and i had scouts within an hour of doing that. It's overcast today, but it should be nice and sunny the next two days. Watch that camera!


I set the trap with extra (external) lure on Thursday night, and the swarm moved in this morning (Monday). This is fast by my standards, as previous captures in this location had a week or more of scouting activity before move-in. Does this have anything to do with the extra LGO? Who knows? n=1, σ=∞, YMMV.

The bees did hang out outside the box for 2 hours before breaking cluster, flying around, and then finally entering the box. Does this have anything to do with the extra LGO? Who knows? The extra LGO was outside, and the inside had only a normal amount, and a month old, at that.

I plan to interview the bees later this week and see what they know.


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## soarwitheagles

Congrats water bug.

Only one of the 5-6 new swarm traps had the 200-300 bees on em' today. The others had 10-30 and could have been forager bees from the previous swarms...the one swarm that was getting hammered was placed where no swarm trap was for 2 months. So I think this will be a new method for us. Simply do not replace a trap at the same location that caught a swarm for a least a few weeks...simply move them a few dozen yards or so.

gww, thank you for sharing your ideas. For now, I like using a wax plug for the swarms caught here on our property. Tomorrow I must pick up a swarm from a trap I placed 40 miles south of here. I prefer to screw a piece of wood on the trap entrance to avoid any bees from escaping [I would like to avoid unnecessary liability issues]. 

I believe we should have a monster swarm by tomorrow in the one trap that was getting hammered today...truth of the matter is...I was wondering if it already had a swarm inside...hope to find out for sure tomorrow.

How do we know if it is lots of scout bees or if a swarm has already moved in?

I like the idea of a camera...

I have a question...

Can I take down a loaded swarm trap, then leave it for 8-10 hours in 80-90F degree weather in the back of my truck or would this kill the bees?


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## soarwitheagles

Caught two more swarms here today. I will do my best to house them tomorrow.

Picked up some pollination bees we placed in April. Had good build up. I also picked up a swarm from the same orchard. Fairly strong, but left in the trap way too long again. Lots of free hanging loaded comb on the cover.

Swarm season here is beginning to abate. I am beginning to see less and less scout bees hammering the traps...


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## Michael Bush

"You never can tell with bees."--Winnie the Pooh. One experiment does not prove a point. Every colony makes it's own decisions. The object is to find what works more often and not less often.


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## soarwitheagles

Michael Bush said:


> "You never can tell with bees."--Winnie the Pooh. One experiment does not prove a point. Every colony makes it's own decisions. The object is to find what works more often and not less often.


Well said Michael Bush and I totally agree with you!


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## soarwitheagles

Maybe swarm season is still going...

We made 20 brand new nucs, assembled frames for each one, then installed the wax coated yellow plastic foundation from Mann Lake. I came home today and massive scout bees in our building hammering the brand new nucs with the wax coated plastic. Kinda irritating to be honest with you.

JRG told us to put em' outside. We did that tonight...will see what happens next...


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## GregB

GregV said:


> These performed the best for me.
> Previously used by bees.
> Just free-standing on the ground.
> About 50 liters in volume.
> Inside Lang deeps turned 90 degrees.
> 
> View attachment 37232
> 
> View attachment 37233
> 
> 
> Will be building a couple more similar traps for next season (found few authentic empty logs).


Both of these free-standing "logs" are doing well this season (meaning bees found them right away and have been sniffing on and off). And now, I am pretty sure, they are zeroing onto one of these.
No matter the cool and rainy days yesterday and today, there is active scouting in progress.
Fingers crossed.









On the subject - free standing works fine; though it seems these tall structures with entrance above the grass line are the best for free standing. If a standard trap box is free standing, it is better to set it up on some 2-3 foot structure so to raise the entrance above the grass level (my opinion and note to self - I got free standing traps with an entrance too low above the ground; need to raise a couple of feet up).


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## GregB

Finally completed and installed a couple of additional log traps.
Inside are Lang mediums hanging upright.
Missed the prime time if there was any this year, but hey, never know.
Better off standing in bush, not on the driveway.


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