# Q: 5-frame Nuc as a swarm trap??



## kbee (Mar 6, 2005)

A 5-frame nuc works fine. I catch 10-12 swarms every year with them.


----------



## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

Kbee, care to share some secrets?  Bait? Placement? etc? I was thinking about putting some LGO on an empty frame, putting it back in a wall that I took a 2 day old swarm out of last year and putting the panel back up on the wall to see if a new swarm might happen to find the place, but not sure if it will work.

Craig


----------



## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

I use five frames nuc boxes for swarm traps all the time. I try get them as high up as possible. The swarm traps do better at 10 feet up or higher. I put them on sheds, lean-to type roofs, etc. I also put 2 or three drops of lemongrass oil on a q-tip end and drop one in each nuc or homemade swarm trap.


----------



## kbee (Mar 6, 2005)

I would put them where it's convenient for you. Jeffzhear is right about the height, about 10-15 feet. I try to use deer hunting stands when I can, although I have had them as low as 5 feet and still had acceptance. LGO really helps, 2-3 drops on the frames lasts a good month. I screw the top and bottom down to make it solid. It's important to have a tight top. I don't think the bees like a box with light leaks at the top. Also a box screwed together makes it easier to get it down and transported.


----------



## Buffalolick (Jan 26, 2010)

I just put one in a deer stand today, baited with LGO and pheromone, and dark brood comb. It's a 5 frame nuc, bottom board attached. I got a picture of it on my website on the honeybees, swarm removal page


----------



## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I also screw the top, & bottom board to my swarm traps.
A frame of drawn comb, & LG oil


----------



## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

I also use 5frame nucs as swarms traps, I think as of this week we have 8-10 out. We use the phermone lures from Dadant plus q-tips soaked in LG oil. We DO NOT use a frame of drawn comb, however I am not discouraging this practice at all. We put five wired frames each with a wedge and let the swarm fill the frames (foundationless). When we catch a swarm we move that box to the beeyard and replace it with a new 5frame nuc. As the swarm builds we bump them to an 8frame hive.


----------



## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

I always had a nuc for a swarm trap growing up. Used comb has plenty of pheremone. I got 25 hives without ever buying a single one. Sure there are a bunch of splits in the 25 hives. They were probably my swarms anyway.


----------



## CVbee (Feb 20, 2010)

I have a question, which is going off topic a bit. I was setting up a Nuc for a swarm trap with pheromone from dadant and I was wondering if yellow jackets are attracted to the pheromone also?


----------



## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

CV, I use the phermones, never seen them drawn to this bait down here in FL. That being said I know you guys farther north have a bigger issue with them than we do down here.


----------



## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

40L is a pretty good sized cavity. I've heard scout bees try to find a cavity about 9 L, which is about the size of a single deep.

As a general rule of thumb, a 5 frame nuc will have 50% of the success of a single deep as a swarm trap.


----------



## Reef Resiner (Jun 9, 2015)

Good question, I'm new to beekeeping and been doing a lot of research on swarms lately. At the end of last year I made 5 and 6 frame nucs from plywood and was intending to use them for baited traps this year... I'm also thinking on using large boxes. Do you guys have success using boxes? Again, good question, im glad it was verified that 5 frame nucs do work!


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Welcome to Beesource. Ironically I've had poor luck with 5 frame nuc boxes as swarm traps. I put every swarm I catch in them but as a bait hive I have poor luck. Be sure to put a frame of open brood in there when capturing a swarm to ensure they don't leave. But this is a difference between capturing a trapping. I'm going to "retired" 10 frame deeps as traps this year to see if I have better luck. Studies have shown 8-deep frames to be the most effective when making a bait hive but I don't have that size of equipment.


----------



## Reef Resiner (Jun 9, 2015)

Good point. And thanks, I can't say how much i love this site enough! I'm definitely going for trapping i.e. baited with LGO... I also got some Swarm Commander this year and going to give that a shot. I should have mentioned the large boxes i'm making for traps being card board. Lol. I been hearing a lot of mixed things about the 5 frame nucs working as traps and people switching to something bigger. 

I been thinking about doing that with a 10 frame deep as well, but I'm mostly worried about someone walking away with it. I only know of 3 places where to set up where I seen a swarm and or a high volume of bees.

Ive seen these traps last year that look like they are made out of card board plant holders or something. I was hoping a regular box would work, just add some old comb and LGO? But haven't heard anyone really trying or using it. Would it work? Would a wax cardboard box work for a bait trap?

Thanks for the quick response, you guys rock!


----------



## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Any of you guys used the corrugated nuc boxes for swarm traps?


----------



## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

This year I'm trying some 5 over 5 deep nucs, with frames in the top box only (1 brood comb, 2-1/2 sheets of foundation, and 2 full sheets of foundation), as traps. Somebody on here mentioned they do something like that.. and I like the concept: Ideal volume, less frames in the box, giving the illusion of a bigger cavity to the scouts, less frames tied up in your traps. I figure I can gather them up before they build comb outside of the five frames..


----------



## Reef Resiner (Jun 9, 2015)

Very awesome larryh! I seen something like that mentioned and was looking all over for a clear explaination. Thank you for clarifying how that works! I'm definitely going to incorporate that into my arsenal of options.


----------



## Muzkrat (Apr 13, 2015)

This year I'm trying some 5 over 5 deep nucs, with frames in the top box only 

I plan to put out some 5 over 5 nucs for traps with some LGO for bait. I like the idea of leaving the bottom empty and frames up top. May try that and see what happens. My first year of trappin


----------



## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

Reef Resiner said:


> Very awesome larryh! I seen something like that mentioned and was looking all over for a clear explaination. Thank you for clarifying how that works! I'm definitely going to incorporate that into my arsenal of options.


Not my idea, I ripped it off the from some body else here..just can't recall who, or what thread.


----------



## yotebuster1200 (Jul 28, 2013)

Countryboy said:


> 40L is a pretty good sized cavity. I've heard scout bees try to find a cavity about 9 L, which is about the size of a single deep.
> 
> As a general rule of thumb, a 5 frame nuc will have 50% of the success of a single deep as a swarm trap.


A deep box is closer to 42 liters. 

18.375*14.75*9.625=2608.7 cubic inches. 
Converting cubic inches to cubic centimeters 2608.7*2.54*2.54*2.54= 42,748.9 cubic centimeters.
Converting Cubic centimeters to liters 42748.9/1000=42.7 liters

A five frame nuc will be closer to 21 liters.


----------



## ljbee (Apr 27, 2015)

Reef Resiner said:


> ...
> 
> I been thinking about doing that with a 10 frame deep as well, but I'm mostly worried about someone walking away with it. ...


I made some D Coates 5 frame nucs

http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/5-frame-nuc-d-coates-version/

(thanks D Coates)

and then I heard swarms like 10 frames better so I changed all the measurements that said 7 1/2" to 14 3/4". (it's a little more than that, but you get the idea)

Now I have 4 - 5 frame and 6 - 10 frame swarm traps out of 3 sheets of 1/2" BC plywood $22 a sheet :thumbsup:


----------



## yotebuster1200 (Jul 28, 2013)

larryh said:


> This year I'm trying some 5 over 5 deep nucs, with frames in the top box only (1 brood comb, 2-1/2 sheets of foundation, and 2 full sheets of foundation), as traps. Somebody on here mentioned they do something like that.. and I like the concept: Ideal volume, less frames in the box, giving the illusion of a bigger cavity to the scouts, less frames tied up in your traps. I figure I can gather them up before they build comb outside of the five frames..


I did something similar. I build my own swarm traps and build them 5 frames wide and 16 inches deep. This gives me around 39L of volume. I then hang 5 frames. I caught a couple in them last year. I let them stay in the nuc for about a week then moved them to a full sized hive. So far they haven't tried to draw comb on the bottoms of the hives.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Clayton Huestis said:


> Any of you guys used the corrugated nuc boxes for swarm traps?


This was waxed cardboard. Arrived 3 hours after placement.


----------



## Reef Resiner (Jun 9, 2015)

So scout bees look for a 9L cavity initially but prefer 40L total? I calculated my custom nucs to be 35.8L for 1 deep. Would that be sufficient as is? (This is for baited traps by the way.) Thanks again for the responses. Very good info!


----------



## Reef Resiner (Jun 9, 2015)

Sorry for my noobiness but that is a baited trap?


----------



## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

Seeley's recommendation is 40 liters as optimal. 10 frame deep is 42 liters.


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard (Jul 7, 2015)

dynemd said:


> Seeley's recommendation is 40 liters as optimal. 10 frame deep is 42 liters.


If I am not mistaken, Seeley makes this recommendation after trying _only three different sizes - _10 liters, 40 liters, and 100 liters. At least, this is what I have inferred from his bulletin "Bait Hives for Honey Bees." (I have yet to read _Honeybee Democracy_, so I do not know if what he says there is more complete.) He found that of these three sizes, 40 liters was by far the most successful, 100 liters was much less successful, and the 10 liter boxes were ignored completely. Hence he recommends 40 liters.

But there is a big difference between 10 liters and the 21 liters of a five frame nuc, or between 100 liters and the 53 liters of a ten frame Dadant deep, and I do not see in Seeley's research (or the little that I know of it) an suggestion that _either _of these sizes is _worse_ than a 40 liter box. I would be curious to know if there has been any more nuanced research done, either on the part of Seeley himself, or on the part of anyone else - or if anyone here on the forum has come to conclusions at odds with his.

I must imagine that location also makes a huge difference (cold winters would encourage bees to seek larger spaces for larger winter stores), to say nothing of the strain of bees involved.

John


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard (Jul 7, 2015)

larryh said:


> This year I'm trying some 5 over 5 deep nucs, with frames in the top box only (1 brood comb, 2-1/2 sheets of foundation, and 2 full sheets of foundation), as traps. Somebody on here mentioned they do something like that..


I do not know if he is the pioneer of the idea (though I believe he is), but JWChesnut speaks about this technique in the following thread:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?320053-Swarming-question-from-single-deeps

It seems like a very well-thought-out approach. I think I will give it a try as well. 

John


----------



## Fishmaster50 (Apr 30, 2015)

What size entrance do you use? Just a inch or so hole?


----------



## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

JohnBruceLeonard said:


> I do not know if he is the pioneer of the idea (though I believe he is), but JWChesnut speaks about this technique in the following thread:
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?320053-Swarming-question-from-single-deeps
> 
> ...


Yep, that's where I saw it. Thanks!


----------



## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

Fishmaster50 said:


> What size entrance do you use? Just a inch or so hole?


Again Seeley recommends 2.33 square inches. A square hole of 1.5 inches on a side or a circular hole with a diameter of 1.72 inches or 3/4" by 3" rectangle.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>Again Seeley recommends

All the bait hives I catch and wild hives in trees that I see don't seem real concerned about Seeley's recommendations. The seem to take up residence of in almost any size cavity with almost any size entrance. It seems to me that almost any box I fill with black combs and some LGO can catch a swarm. I have caught hundreds in five frame boxes but am going to eight and tens because:

"You can catch a small swarm in a big box but you can't catch a big swarm in a small box."

I catch the biggest swarms in the biggest boxes.


----------



## JohnBruceLeonard (Jul 7, 2015)

larryh said:


> Yep, that's where I saw it. Thanks!


Pleasure! Best of luck this year, and happy hunting!

John


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I catch between 20-30 swarms a year in 5 frame nuc, I have between 33 and 50% success. 

While using 5 frame nuc with LGO in partial shade with 2 sq in entrance facing southish. The biggest a difference I see is draw comb, one full frame of dark comb worked much better than pieces which still work better than none. Using multiple frames of brood comb did not notice increase percent caught. Next the height of the box made a noticeable difference some as high as 20ft in a tree seemed to do very well. 

Lucky spots also do catch bees year after year. 

A few years ago I add some 10 frame boxes to the mix, I did not notice an over all increase.

Don't know if it makes a difference but most of what I catch are ferial survivor, noticeable by the smaller bee size. (I have also caught a few larger size bees in town)


----------

