# International 4300 vs Freightliner M2



## beeware10

hi
IF 10 people respond you will get 10 different answers. I would buy the freightliner. go down the the interstate and count freightliners vs Ih. there is no comparison and these guy are making a living. Cat is very good but very expensive. I would go with a cummins for power. A beekeeper never has the right truck. they always want something different.

good luck, beeware10


----------



## gregstahlman

the right truck would be an International 7500 tandem. that doesnt really help answer your question though lol


----------



## Thermwood




----------



## Roland

What Fuller trans are you looking at? I am not a fan of the Allison, they suck fuel.
Be aware that to the best of my knowledge, the Cat engines will be orphans soon. 

Roland


----------



## turboterry544

I work on big truck's part time, I will tell you to get a Cummings w a Allison trans,a lot more Cummings dealers than International. The Cummings parts are more money but last a lot longer.I love the fact that I can go to Cummings to buy my parts for my Dodge 2500 Cummings w The Allison trans I paid around $5,000 more for it & would do it again.International how long will they be in the U.S.A ? They have said that they will move to Mexico how long will you wait for parts or how good of a made part you going to get.We all know that we drive what we can pay for.Good luck


----------



## Thermwood

These trucks will be a nickel a dozen soon, and will not be allowed into California without very expensive modifications.


----------



## turboterry544

I cant wait for that one Volvo is doing a lot more than Mack is for the exh pipe.


----------



## LSPender

better check with CA, desil truck requirments, ARB, Air resouces Board.

If you are buying new you should have no problemes with model year 2011


----------



## HVH

Thermwood said:


> These trucks will be a nickel a dozen soon, and will not be allowed into California without very expensive modifications.


We've talked about this and I am not sure what will happen to those of us not in Californica. If CA finally wants to put the last nail in their economic coffin then that would be a good approach.

TurboTerry544,

What (under 26K) truck carries a good cummins?


----------



## John Lockhart

I own an Int. and a Freightliner. 4700 and FL106. We like the Freightliner better if for no other reason than it turns a lot tighter than the Int. (and I mean a lot tighter!!) It will turn around in about 3/4 the room. That can be a big deal. The DT466 is a good engine, with a rebuild time of 300K miles. Get the most hp you can get. The big engines will get better mileage than the smaller ones. The new M2 Freightliners come with a M-Benz engine. I know a big beek who has several of them and really likes them. I would love to have a truck with an auto trans even if it got a little less mileage. My Freightliner has a Detroit series 50 engine, which is great, but I don't think you can get it anymore. It has over 500k on it and keeps on ticking. With a 24 foot bed (which is what we run too) make sure you do not under-power the truck. You need to be looking at the 300 hp range. You need that much to load it down and tow a forklift, and still get reasonable fuel mileage. Hope this helps.


----------



## Roland

John, I am not sure I understand your reasoning for suggesting 300 HP. My son and I maintain a fleet of 10 quad axle dump trucks which gross 73,000 lbs. With a GOOD transmission, 300 hp is ample. What is your GVW? 

The trucks that have the most HP use the most fuel. and break the most u-joints, yokes, and differential gears. The reason I say GOOD transmission, is that in soft ground, a low low that is 4 MPH at redline, will enable a lower horsepower engine to easily handle the situation. 

With the Macks we work on, the automatic is much easier to get stuck than the Eaton-Fuller manuals, all else being equal.

Roland


----------



## EastSideBuzz

I am glad that I read this thread. I never would have thought about CA's excremental stuff being important in my decision to buy a truck outside of CA. Funny how things work that way. :no:


----------



## John Lockhart

Our Freightliner gvw is 52000. It has a 9 speed and the Detroit series 50 at 315 hp. It gets 9-10 mpg, depending on how its loaded. And, on long trips it will run 70 mph all day. The int. has a DT engine at 185 hp and a 7 speed trans. It has a gvw of 31000. It is way underpowered. With any kind of load and a swinger on behind it, it runs about 50mph, and gets 7 mpg.
A few years back, I knew a couple of brothers who bought matching Int 4900 trucks, both with the DT 466 engine and 7 speed trans. One truck had the engine at 190hp, and the other at 220. The 220 got 3mpg better mileage, and would leave the 190 in the dust. If you are underpowered you work the engine too hard.
Now I know that the Detroit engines are known for getting good mileage, and they are hard to find, but its a real good choice if you can find one. 
Just saying, if you have more power than you need, you can back off a bit, but if you are underpowered, there is nothing you can do but curse. And when we load the Freightliner down, 315 hp is not too much. The wind blows in this part of the world, and in Texas too.


----------



## HVH

Great input from everyone - thanks.
I was looking at used trucks from Penske because they are well maintained and have a list of about 30 used trucks for sale with GVW's under 26K. With used trucks you sometimes have to make a few compromises so I have settled for an International 4300 with DT466 at 215 hp, Allison 2000 five speed, 102" X 24' bed with rails, GVW of 25999, tare of 15217, gear 5.57, air brakes and suspension, and about 110K miles. I wanted the fuller 6 speed and a gear ratio of 4.11 but thought the 5.57 may be better with full loads. The International 4300 with DT466 are slow and a 4.11 would have given it a little longer legs, but the 5.57 may be better with a good load and pulling a forklift. The other trucks some of you listed would be great but in the under 26k, I couldn't find any Cummins, Volvo, or Detroits so the DT466 was the deciding point for me. So I am hoping that I have read the FSCMA regs and Nevada regs correctly and can load the truck to 26K and still pull a trailer under 10K. There are a lot of sites out there with people arguing about this but I do have it in writing that I am interpreting this correctly.


----------



## John Lockhart

I have a friend who just bought one of those trucks last year. He really likes it. The reason for the lower gears in the auto is because the auto trans has a taller high gear. It will run about the same speed as a manual trans. You should get another 200,000 miles out of that truck before it needs a rubuild.


----------



## HVH

I'm not that familiar with these numbers so let me see if I understand this - a 5.57 ratio with a larger gear from the tranny will approximate a 4.11 with a smaller tranny gear? In one case the drive shaft turns 4.11 times for every tire rotation and the other 5.57 times per tire rotation. So given the same tranny gearing the 4.11 would have longer legs. But you are saying that a larger geared tranny will compensate for the 5.57 and place the same amount of strain on the engine as a smaller geared tranny with a 4.11 ratio? This makes sense to me but I may not be right.


----------



## swarm_trapper

HVH i have about the same truck as you just got. only dif is i have a 18ft bed. my truck will run 70mph with loader and load all day long. it will take a bit to get up there but not too bad. Dose your truck have air brakes and air ride i got mine with it and love it. 
regards Nick


----------



## loggermike

Remember this from back in Feb.? We tried to kill this in the Nov. election but were outvoted by the greenies.
I hear CARB is going to vote on delaying these rules.But I wouldn't count on it.



http://cfbf.com/agalert/AgAlertStory.cfm?ID=1448&ck=E94F63F579E05CB49C05C2D050EAD9C0
"CFBF Director Shannon Wooten, a beekeeper and queen breeder in Palo Cedro, said he's concerned about how this diesel truck rule will impact the apiary sector, those in-state and out-of-state beekeepers who arrive in California almond orchards each year during bloom with bees to pollinate the trees.

"This diesel truck rule is going to impact us for sure, because so many people are transporting loads of bees into the almonds. A lot of these guys are one- or two-man operations and they are running with one or two trucks and they can't afford the retrofits," Wooten said. "The out-of-state guy doesn't keep up with California state laws, so if they come here once the rule is implemented to put their bees in the almonds and he lands at the border and they say, 'You're not diesel retrofitted or have the right age engine. You are not going in,' logistically it is going to be an absolute nightmare."


----------



## HVH

Yes - air for both. People have told me I will be going 45 over our passes (3000 ft climb) but that is not so bad after driving a landcruiser for the last 20 years that doesn't do much better on speed or gas mileage. If I can even get up to 55 over the pass I will be thrilled. And like my neighbor pointed out, hauling 128 hives or more at 9 miles to the gallon is better than moving 64 hives at 15 miles per gallon twice. I'm really looking forward to having a lift gate as well. I am having an AST3000 installed that will accept an 8 ton combo hitch for the future purchase of a Hummerbee XL (if I don't go belly up first).


----------



## HVH

loggermike said:


> "The out-of-state guy ..... lands at the border and they say, 'You're not diesel retrofitted or have the right age engine. You are not going in,' "


My thinking on that is -> then its time to hire a trucker to haul my bees.


----------



## dbest

I think you should buy this one. 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247830


----------



## HVH

I tried to find a truck under 26K GVW like that one with a Cummins but no luck.


----------



## dbest

Here are a few near you:

http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=2471905
http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=2585795
http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=2030506
http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=2579581


----------



## HVH

Thanks for the links. I'm not sure about the GVW's because they are not listed, but the last link did say a CDL was not needed. Another has 26,000 inches for a height which might have been the GVW posted in the wrong spot. I guess Penske doesn't purchase anything for their fleet under 26K with a Cummins.


----------



## HVH

I have a new question regarding axle capacity. I've noticed that many of the flatbed trucks (24 foot bed) around 26K-GVW have very different axle capacities. The truck I am interested in has an 8000lb front axle capacity with some trucks having 12000 for the front. I can only imagine that the combined capacity equals 26k. So what would be better for hauling bees 8k front/18k back or possibly 12k front and 14k back?


----------



## jim lyon

HVH said:


> I have a new question regarding axle capacity. I've noticed that many of the flatbed trucks (24 foot bed) around 26K-GVW have very different axle capacities. The truck I am interested in has an 8000lb front axle capacity with some trucks having 12000 for the front. I can only imagine that the combined capacity equals 26k. So what would be better for hauling bees 8k front/18k back or possibly 12k front and 14k back?


Doubt that you would ever see the 12/14 combination. If it has a front axle rating of 12K it is almost certainly going to go over 26K GVW. Back axle is typically rated for about twice what the front axle is rated for. What is interesting, though, is it is pretty common for the two axle ratings to add up to more than what the truck is rated for by maybe 1 or 2K. For example a 9K front and a 18K rear may still be called a 26K GVW dunno why.


----------



## HVH

Jim,

I found one on my Penske spread sheet with 12k front, 4 with 10k front and 15 with 8k front. With what you stated I suppose all the rear axles could theoretically be rated the same and add up to more than 26k.


----------



## G B

If you have a front axle with a 8000 rating you can be over weight on that axle and not over on the rear, kinda unlikley but heavier is better if you have to cross scales like on the way to the almonds


----------



## HVH

That's what a friend told me. 

If it is 8k in front and the tare is about 16k, that would suggest that maxing out the front could happen really quickly. The only way this would work is if the curb weight is heavily skewed toward the rear axle. Adding 10k of bees for a max GVW of 26k could be a challenge. Something seems really wrong with my conclusions. I guess the real question is; how much of that curb weight is sitting on the front axle and how will weight be distributed over a 24' bed?


----------



## G B

What you might want to due is load the truck up,and then go get weighted at a scale. get the weight on the front axle, then move the entire truck on to the scale. Jthen you will have the weight on each axle. so you can see if you need to position the load differentely.When i had my dump truck i put larger/ wider front tires on with a much higher weight rating.so instead of a 12.5 axel I had i think it was 16,000. I also increased the GVW bye that amount also. Of course this was not kosher. The Arizona DOT was not up to speed and even though i was weighted a number of times the cops never took the time to actually check to see if the axle was actually rated for 16 0000( It wasnt). I dont think I could get away with that now, Arizona is broke and the commercial cops are looking for anything to increase fines/ revenue. Of course California is not in the same position and I am sure the CHP would be very understanding if they were to stop you :lpf:


----------



## HVH

I haven't purchased the truck yet and think my analysis must be wrong because it wouldn't make any sense for Penske to have a fleet of flatbeds that can't accept any weight forward. When I get the truck I will go to the scales and see what's up before crossing the California state line.


----------

