# What are the limits to growth? Expanding apiary.



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"supplement with sugar throughout the warm months."?

I think you have need for more years of experience before expanding too far too quickly.

I understand your great hopes and expectations. We all start out some time from where we are. "the greatest threat to the world's bees [is] still the incompetence of their keepers." Hannah Nordhaus on Langstroth's beehive in her book "The Beekeepers Lament". Which would be a good book for you to read if you would like to better understand "What are the limits of growth?"

Best wishes. Don't let my comments discourage you. As if that is all it would take.


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## THALL (Apr 6, 2010)

I agree with, Sqkcrk. 
In my experience what I thought would take 2 years has taken me 4 years. Set some goals and see if you have any success in reaching them. I often found that I didn't reach my desired colony numbers within my given time frame but what I saw instead was increase in productivity and then an increase in overall colony numbers as I leaned how to mange more colonies over time. Beekeeping in my opinion comes from patience and hard work there is really no easy way around it.


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## mperry89 (Mar 12, 2014)

Regarding the sugar, I'm supposing that all that comb is going to take a lot of energy. I plan to feed in spring to give them a little better access to resources for all the building they'll be doing. I don't plan on feeding through the winter or making that a routine part of my management, it's just for the expansion.

Thanks for your feedback. I'm asking these questions because I'm trying to gauge what is realistic and act from there.


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## mperry89 (Mar 12, 2014)

So given that, what in your experience did growing your apiary look like? How many years did it take to get where? Both in strength of your colonies and number of colonies. Thanks for the feedback.


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## DLMKA (Feb 7, 2012)

How long have you been keeping bees? How many hives did you start with? How many do you have now?

This will be my third year with bees. Started out with two then kept getting calls for swarms, have 21 now minus the 4 that died this winter. Not sure what will happen this summer, I have equipment to raise some queens and winter 30 nucs in the Mike Palmer divided nuc set-up. I'm reaching my limit without getting some extra help from the missus or the oldest kid (10). I have a full time job, a big garden, and like to do some mountain biking and have some family time too.


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## mperry89 (Mar 12, 2014)

This coming year will be my third. My first year was a year of terrific mistakes, but this past year I worked with an older beekeeper who keeps around eighty. So I definitely gained a lot from my year with him. I went into winter with 7 hives. I'll be reducing winter's survivors to small cell before I start splitting them. I'm also going with something of a mini-nuc set-up. However many nucs I wind up with, my current plan is to overwinter them on top one another if they are small. I have a part time job and no kids. I'd like to make bees my full time thing before something like a family comes along.


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## Heintz88 (Feb 26, 2012)

Get a job with someone with a few thousand hives. Learn for
A year or two.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

mperry89 said:


> Regarding the sugar, I'm supposing that all that comb is going to take a lot of energy. I plan to feed in spring to give them a little better access to resources for all the building they'll be doing. I don't plan on feeding through the winter or making that a routine part of my management, it's just for the expansion.
> 
> Thanks for your feedback. I'm asking these questions because I'm trying to gauge what is realistic and act from there.


Unless you experience a really crappy summer, bees won't take sugar then and don't need it then.

Not being critical, but the statement revealed a lack of understanding perhaps from a lack of experience or understanding. Or maybe you didn't really mean what you wrote.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

mperry89 said:


> So given that, what in your experience did growing your apiary look like? How many years did it take to get where? Both in strength of your colonies and number of colonies. Thanks for the feedback.


It takes years to get the experience and knowledge and money to grow. So, growth is limited by the amount of money you have to invest. Then there are all of the other impediments which haunt us all.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

mperry89 said:


> I'll be reducing winter's survivors to small cell before I start splitting them.


This made me shake my head when I read it. As if small cell is some sort of magic elixir? Best wishes.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

This is my third summer keeping bees on my own. I bought 2 packages in 2012' and entered winter with 10 colonies, after getting 2 hives given to me by my wife's grand father. Last spring I purchased 40 nucs, and entered winter with 48 regular colonies, and 20 supers of split box nucs. 

For me their are several limitations to expansion rate. 1. Money. With enough capital, you can do anything, but few of us have that privilege. I estimate $300/hive for capital, not including bees probably a bit low still. (Buildings, trucks, hive equipment, extracting equipment,etc) 2. Drawn comb, everything is more difficult without drawn comb. 1/2 the honey crop, twice the swarming, twice the beekeeper manipulation labour. 3. Beekeeper skill and winter survival.

These are the first things that come to my mind as I expand, and plan for farther expansion.
Luke


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> This made me shake my head when I read it. As if small cell is some sort of magic elixir? Best wishes.


I though about adding basically the same thing to my post while typing it but decided not to for fear of starting a war, but seeing as you went there....

Mperry, you will have more than enough on your plate without introducing small cell. 
Luke


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## mperry89 (Mar 12, 2014)

sharpdog said:


> I though about adding basically the same thing to my post while typing it but decided not to for fear of starting a war, but seeing as you went there....
> 
> Mperry, you will have more than enough on your plate without introducing small cell.
> Luke


Well I guess this is a bad time to tell you that my bees are foundationless. Not to kick the proverbial beehive or anything . . .


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## THALL (Apr 6, 2010)

I have been keeping bees for about 10 years. I set out with a goal to be able to make a living from keeping bees 4 years ago. I knew how much income I would need to be able to sustain my current standard of living. At the time I started in 09 I had around 30 colonies and I would overwinter a couple dozen nucs as well. In 2010 I stopped using treatments for mites ( didn't plan on this when I started ) as expected I had HUGE losses. Since then I built up to manage 150 colonies for honey production and last year I made up 165 nucs, I also built up a mating yard to 176 mating nucs. Its been slow going but what I see today is really fascinating! Bees that have come from my own apiary, stocks that I'm maintaining and that are theriving within my local.


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## mperry89 (Mar 12, 2014)

THALL said:


> I have been keeping bees for about 10 years. I set out with a goal to be able to make a living from keeping bees 4 years ago. I knew how much income I would need to be able to sustain my current standard of living. At the time I started in 09 I had around 30 colonies and I would overwinter a couple dozen nucs as well. In 2010 I stopped using treatments for mites ( didn't plan on this when I started ) as expected I had HUGE losses. Since then I built up to manage 150 colonies for honey production and last year I made up 165 nucs, I also built up a mating yard to 176 mating nucs. Its been slow going but what I see today is really fascinating! Bees that have come from my own apiary, stocks that I'm maintaining and that are theriving within my local.


Nice! Thanks. That's the sort of advice I was looking for. So it took you about four years to get to that level? Do you do any artificial feeding (and if so, how much at different times of development) or have you just kept to the honey?


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## brettj777 (Feb 27, 2013)

How do you regress your bees to small cell if they are foundationless?


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

An old beekeeper told me first learn to keep 40 alive then expand from there. I'd say if you are serious, buy 40 nucs and evaluate your progress next spring.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Small cell and natural comb are not necessarily the same thing. But, since I do some of both, my process to reduce larger cells in the natural comb hives, is to cut out sections of larger cells, use those combs with larger cells for honey supers only, or to harvest the beeswax from undesirable combs and let the bees do it again (hoping they do it over to my satisfaction - often they do). Or, better yet, I can add a little extra space for the drone comb, place it in the center of the brood nest, of genetically desirable hives, for raising drones to mate with my queens.

Using PF120 and PF125 Mann Lake plastic frames for its small cell size, seems to work best, for me, to quickly obtain a preponderance of nearly perfect small cell combs, almost every time. They do it best when the new frames are placed between combs of brood in the brood nest and primed with a little bit of extra beeswax coated on the rims of the cell wall bases. And recently I've taken the time to trim nearly all of my brood frames down to 1-1/4" width, so I can now fit nine in an eight-frame super or eleven in a ten-frame super.

Of course I only use small cell and/or natural comb because initially it was a little bit outside of "normal" beekeeping practices; and not because I expected it to provide me any overt protections from parasites. I did and do believe that foundationless combs help the hives health by not introducing possibly tainted wax where it could contact (and possibly affect) the bees and their young, right there, in their homes.

As far as expanding an operation: I feel that you should try. Only by trying, can you learn for yourself what to do and what not to do, so you can succeed in your objectives.

DaveCushman's website has several plans concerning how to expand an apiary. Several other websites also describe creating splits and growing an apiary. I'm sure there are books that also describe those types of manipulations. Here's another link at DaveCushman's site which may also be of interest.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

You have a handful of hives right now, and you plan on expanding to 250 within a couple of years? You said you have only a part time job right now. I hope you realize that you will be spending *at least* $25,000.00 on basic equipment to build up to that level. That is only a fraction of the investment needed at the level you are talking about. 

For your first year or two don't expect to get much of a return on your investment. If you have money set aside for the venture, that's great. 
But I would also advise to take it a little slower and learn the ropes first before you dive into the deep water.

Don't mean to be negative, just suggesting that a bit more thought be put into this before you make the leap.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Honestly, I would say a lot depends on where you put your bees and how big and good of an area it is. You haven't said anything about this part, where do you plan on putting 250 colonies and how good is the forage and water there, that will be one of your limitations. Expanding in a poor forage area is counter productive in many ways, but if you have good forage it's relatively straight forward. Also, not treating might be counter productive at this stage too but that's all on how you want to get where you're going. If you're suffering 30-40% losses because you want to be treatment free while trying to expand, that's a lot of wheel spinning for nothing when you're trying to build up.


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## Wolfer (Jul 15, 2012)

It's pretty simple to raise queens. But it takes some experience to raise good queens. I believe a good rule of thumb is to try to double every year. This lets you get some experience while your growing.


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## Beetastic (Apr 12, 2011)

> For me their are several limitations to expansion rate. 1. Money. With enough capital, you can do anything, but few of us have that privilege. I estimate $300/hive for capital, not including bees probably a bit low still. (Buildings, trucks, hive equipment, extracting equipment,etc) 2. Drawn comb, everything is more difficult without drawn comb. 1/2 the honey crop, twice the swarming, twice the beekeeper manipulation labour. 3. Beekeeper skill and winter survival.


Drawn comb is a HUGE! I finally have a surplus after 3 years, and man does it help. I started out with a similar mentality, and my magic number was 35-40 hives. Boy did I have an intro into farming/animal husbandry! What looks great on paper ain't reality. Started with a couple of hives + caught swarms. Had some poor mating of queens, weak hives, and having a newborn was enough that my colonies suffered a bit. Actually, I lost a lot this past year. But, things are looking good so far, and I'll be doing some grafting to make a round of queens to start new colonies. 

Anyway, on a positive note, I am resolved to hit my numbers and keep them healthy. I think your goals are attainable, but prepare for some stumbling blocks. I would aim to do what Wolfer suggests, and hope to double every year. That way your spending the capital over time and learning to manage and decent sized business over a few years vs trial by fire. 

Good luck!


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## mperry89 (Mar 12, 2014)

I want to thank everyone who has posted, from the encouraging, positive suggestions to the "You're a darned fool!" suggestions. Through this discussion I feel like I have a much more realistic perspective about what is possible and reasonable. Not too bad for joining the forum yesterday.

Thanks!


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## jrhoto (Mar 2, 2009)

These gentlemen have given you some good advice go slow and steady this is a lot of work you are about to take on.Know how far you have to fall before you step off the cliff.


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

As Mike mentioned above expense will be a big factor. As I developed my business plan I quickly realized I needed to reduce my expansion rate. If you're plan is to make this a business, I would recommend contacting a local Small Business Development Center and take a step back and come up with a solid business plan so you have a good estimate of costs- then add 20% for everything you forgot to add into the plan.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I would suggest this resource as a way to grow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nznzpiWEI8A Bees are expensive, if you can become adept at overwintering nucs expansion happens whether you intend it or not because your bees will survive at a higher rate than you anticipated. That has been my experience. I started with one hive in 2008 and am at 37 now.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I woudl say equipment is the most restricting thing to growth. Second would be my lack of experience in management. The bees ability to expand is very far down the list.

I started with bees in May of 2012 with one 5 frame nuc of bees. I made them a hive out of scrounged materials including making the frames myself. 30 days later I captured my first swarm and placed it in a Top Bar hive just becasue I had made one. By the end of that year i was called to a house with bees in the brick of their chimney. this resulted in a trap out that produced two nucs that went through winter as nucs. I was not even trying to expand and grew by 400%. I was just paying attention to how bees act etc. Pretty much everything I did was by the seat of my pants figure it out along the way and found no problems in doing it that way. It did require massive amounts of time and still does. So far I would say it all depends on how serious you are about it. and yo may want to hang the bike in the garage for a while.

Are you in fact willing to "Do It" or are you planning on just setting back in hope the Universe just collects itself together for your benefit? Evidently not enough Universe collected for some so I don't find it a reliable plan.

At the beginning of 2012 I set a goal to increase to 23 colonies. 2 langs to keep here at home as well as the Top Bar hive. 20 to move to an outyard. I also consider 2013 the year I learned what bees can really do. in the process I realized I was not at all prepared for it. Long story short I managed to get my 23 colonies have since lost one and harvested 250 lbs of honey from my 4 first year colonies and consider the entire year a near utter failure. Lost opportunities where left and right starting with swarm season that could have produced 19 new colonies all on it's own. we attempted grafting and queen rearing for the first time which percentage wise was an almost complete failure. Queen looses ran nearly 50% and the first half of the season is now a blur of nothing but trying to keep queens in my hives. Hives swarmed all over the place and we where capturing swarms faster than we could build equipment for them.

So from a year of pretty much nothing but potential to improve. We had a 600% increase. If you notice 600% is 1.5 times 400% increase. Plus there is still a lot of room to improve what we do. So from that same ratio of improvement meaning better increase. I have set the goal for this year to increase 900% or 1.5 times last years increase. In real numbers that puts me just about where you are except I also have 10 nucs.

I have 12 production colonies. 10 nucs and a Top Bar hive if I have to get real creative. my goal is to end the year with 207 colonies. My single greatest challenge is getting the equipment required. I am as of now set up with 27 4 compartment queen castles for just the swarm season alone. In the past week I have been in Contact with Michael Palmer in regard to grafting queens through the swarm period rather than just letting them make their own cells. If I am to do that my first box of brood will need to be collected and the first cell builder set up in 10 days.

It is very hard work. Including continuing to form my plan right up to the last moment. I have spent the last 2 months working to get one plan in place. in the past week that plan may have changed enough that it requires additional preparation. It is not easy to build 27 queen castles in my time after I come home from a full time job. I am not looking for easy. I am looking for done.

My greatest concern is not being able to produce 207 colonies. it is not entirely the ability to make the money to purchase that equipment. my greatest concern is my ability to manage it this time next year. 22 hives right now are a hand full. the entire dynamic of beekeeping will have to shift. It is time I start figuring out how the big boys do it. Increased looses due to less intense keepign is a given. I do not have a lot of commercial beekeeper in this area so having some place to go to see how they do it is not in the cards for me.

What I do have is the ability to figure it out. always have. I do not expect that to change. I am not certain just how much I want to know about how others do it. there results do not look that good to me. I want methods that work and work well. I may find that 200 hives kept well is better than 2000 hives kept poorly.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

sharpdog said:


> Mperry, you will have more than enough on your plate without introducing small cell.
> Luke


Well put sharpdog. Better said.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

mperry89 said:


> Well I guess this is a bad time to tell you that my bees are foundationless. Not to kick the proverbial beehive or anything . . .


You want two mutually exclusive things. Beekeeping is hard enough. You'll find out that some things, some ideas, will be left behind if you are serious about making beekeeping your life and livelihood.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Don't mean to be negative, just suggesting that a bit more thought be put into this before you make the leap.


Mike, I was laying in bed last night thinking about this and if he is serious it seems to me he would actually need at least $250,000.00 to get into a fulltime business. $60,000.00 for a good and proper truck, $30,000.00 for a skidsteer, $8,000.00 for skidsteer trailer, $100,000.00 for bees and equipment, and $52,000.00 for other misc. things.

I would hate to take the time to look back through all the money I spent these last 30 plus years.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

mperry89 said:


> I want to thank everyone who has posted, from the encouraging, positive suggestions to the "You're a darned fool!" suggestions. Through this discussion I feel like I have a much more realistic perspective about what is possible and reasonable. Not too bad for joining the forum yesterday.
> 
> Thanks!


More naive than foolish, that's all. Just giving you a dose of reality.

To paraphrase a mentor of mine, something he said 25 years ago. "I can make a list of names of people who wanted to make a living from bees that would stretch across the room."

Many are able, few are truly willing.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

hi
to have any chance of being a sideline or commercial beekeeper you need to forget small cell and foundationless. some hobby beekeepers claim sucess but no university or researcher can prove benifits. jenifer barry of univ of ga actually showed an increase of mites in their testing. you have to be good at conventional beekeeping first. there are dozens of books written by hobby beekeepers. these people never have and never will make a living from bees. buy "the abc & xyz of bee culture" and "the hive and the honeybee". these two books ruin 100 dollars but are based on good beekeeping experence. there are a few other worthy books also out there. consider the author and their experence vs other hype. based on 50 yrs experence with up to 1200 hives and 3 yrs as a nys bee inspector. good luck


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## mperry89 (Mar 12, 2014)

beeware10 said:


> hi
> to have any chance of being a sideline or commercial beekeeper you need to forget small cell and foundationless. some hobby beekeepers claim sucess but no university or researcher can prove benifits. jenifer barry of univ of ga actually showed an increase of mites in their testing. you have to be good at conventional beekeeping first. there are dozens of books written by hobby beekeepers. these people never have and never will make a living from bees. buy "the abc & xyz of bee culture" and "the hive and the honeybee". these two books ruin 100 dollars but are based on good beekeeping experence. there are a few other worthy books also out there. consider the author and their experence vs other hype. based on 50 yrs experence with up to 1200 hives and 3 yrs as a nys bee inspector. good luck


While I value your advice, Dee Lusby in AZ is a commercial small cell beekeeper who runs +700 hives and makes her living from selling honey. I've seen Dee's hives in person, and they are awesome. I would encourage you to go out there sometime and see for yourself that it can be done and that it works quite well.


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## Deepsouth (Feb 21, 2012)

Id say take it slow and dont get ahead of yourself. It takes time. 
You could have all the experience in the world keeping a few hives and think you have alot of knowledge with beekeeping. But go from a few hives to a few hundred is a whole new ballgame. When I expanded a few years ago I went from 10 hives to 50 and the first couple years I was getting overwhelmed until I learned that I had to change some of my techniques to deal with 50 hives part time on my own. 
It takes Time


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## THALL (Apr 6, 2010)

Mperry89,

I will feed 2:1 syrup in the fall to colonies that need it. In raising queen cells I will supply them with syrup to help keep a steady food source available.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

mperry89 said:


> While I value your advice, Dee Lusby in AZ is a commercial small cell beekeeper who runs +700 hives and makes her living from selling honey. I've seen Dee's hives in person, and they are awesome. I would encourage you to go out there sometime and see for yourself that it can be done and that it works quite well.


Nobody is saying it won't work, but just trying to suggest what the priority is for becoming sideliner, or commercial. If you are hard bent on small cell/natural comb, that's fine, but it's not the most common and accepted method for success. There are always compromises to be made when starting a successful business.

Luke


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

To the op....based on your apparent philosophical approach, I think your questions would be better directed to Dee Lusby or Michael Bush.
I hope you will keep us informed of your progress.
Good luck.


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

I am currently expanding an apiary. I am expanding by 4x and my greatest limit to growth is that my bees do not produce enough honey with the heavy splitting to cover all my equipment costs. In my area we get a lot of honey so at 4x splitting they produce enough to cover the hive component costs. 

Where I run into issues is purchasing equipment such as a truck, trailer, uncapper, and other extracting aids. I also have to convert my honey extracting facility to conform to industry regulations to sell honey wholesale. This will take up most of my year and winter, and hopefully it gets approved.

I will need to deal with inferior equipment, rental equipment and lack of equipment altogether, to continue the pace that I am going at. Many long hours to make up for what equipment could do that I cannot afford.

My business wont make a dime until I stop expanding, I have a goal in mind, and a timeline in mind, but this is farming, prepare to be surprised! It could be good, or bad, who knows?

At the end of the day it is worth it to me. Not because I love bees, and nature, and hugging trees. I love the feeling I get building something that is mine and will allow me to one day be self sufficient and not have to rely on the boss man to feed my family.

My expansion rate is in line with yours, here is my out of pocket expenses. and expected future out of pocket expenses after honey revenues.

year 1 5 hives to 13 $5,685.55
year 2 13 hives to 50 $12,013.35
year 3 50 hives to 200 $38,152.50
year 4 200 hives to 400 $11,670.00
year 5 I expect to stay at 400 hives and have a net income around $82,000

these numbers are based on a honey price of $1.90 and the MB average of 155lbs per hive. And best of all, and most unrealistic no winter losses.
to tell you the truth that net income in year 5 will probably not exist, and if it does, it will go to better equipment, repairs and whatever else I have neglected to buy over the years which would make my operation easier.

Year 3 out of pocket expenses will be impossible without a loan.

And at the end of the day spreadsheets don't tell you what real life will.

It can be done, and it will be done. Good luck to you.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

What is your current hive count JoshW?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I have watched in horror as naive new beekeepers launch themselves into $50,000 to $100,000 commitments to "Foundationless TF" systems. 

Locally, these ventures are expansions of Marie Antoinette-style hobby farms subsidized by Silicon Valley millions. In my county, despite gold-plated inputs, these are predictable and epic disasters. The well-heeled semi-aristocrats can absorb the capital loss, I don't get the impression mPerry89 is in this same fortunate circumstance.

My positive suggestion is: Start about four out-yards, manage each with a different style and treatment-option for at least two years. Evaluate the results, and adapt. Until you have experimental proof that some management style is resilient and successful, making an enormous commitment is definitionally fool-hardy.

What makes 250 hives an economic unit? In Central Ca, even 400 hives are a hard-scrabble sideline. 250 hives will need to be spread over 10 locations, involving high transportation costs. Can this be serviced with a light truck? Not unless you are handloading hives? Are you forgoing any pollination income?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There are many things that affect your expansion:

The weather
The forage
How many yards you have available
How much money you have for equipment
How much time you have to assemble that equipment and do your beekeeping
How much money you have to buy bees

If you want to regress and you are stretching your dollars and time, it's hard to beat the PF100 series of plastic frames and foundation from Mann Lake. It will take less money and no more effort than any other plastic frames and less effort than wood frames etc. I have no idea why everyone assumes that small cell is at all difficult. Buy the PF120s or PF100s (as appropriate for your size of boxes) and use them. No more trouble than doing Pierco or any other plastic frames. Feed a few empty wood frames between drawn brood for drones.

Foundationless is less work than wood frames and foundation (although more work than the PF100 series). All you have to do is buy the foundationless frames from Walter T. Kelley and put them together.

How far you can push things as far as splits etc. is really a matter of finding a happy medium. If you split too aggressively the small nucs won't build up very fast. If you are not at all agressive it will take a long time. If you keep an eye on the bees and make strong splits you can probably double your apiary every year in a typical year and quadrouple it in an awsome year. A bad year you may not make as much progress or a really bad year you may not make any progress. You need to watch the bees and learn from them the "sweet spot" for size and timing for splits. It will take a few years to figure this out and about the time you think you have, the weather will change your mind...

Find yards that are as close as you can to home. Find yards with good forage. Have a lot of yards so you can spread the bees out. You never get the ideal, but ideal would be an apiary every two or three miles in every direction from your house with 8,000 acres of sweet clover around them... of course that won't happen, but it's nice to have a goal...


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

sharpdog said:


> What is your current hive count JoshW?


Just 13, everything is ready and in order to go to 50 this spring. also have canola and 3rd alfalfa agreement for this season. I cant wait to see those bees flying through fields of yellow and blue. Snow is melting and spring is knocking on the door.


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## Dave1958 (Mar 25, 2013)

I understand. I started last year with one hive, built up to 20. I was at 4 before the last ice event. My intention was to get to 40. I had intentions of adding about 20 per year, depending on my time and as my skills developed. I ordered 10 packages and 5 queens this spring. we shall see how it works out. My issue was cold and starvation. I had sugar patties on top but they clustered away from the food


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

sharpdog said:


> For me their are several limitations to expansion rate. 1. Money. With enough capital, you can do anything, but few of us have that privilege. I estimate $300/hive for capital, not including bees probably a bit low still. (Buildings, trucks, hive equipment, extracting equipment,etc) 2. Drawn comb, everything is more difficult without drawn comb. 1/2 the honey crop, twice the swarming, twice the beekeeper manipulation labour. 3. Beekeeper skill and winter survival.
> 
> These are the first things that come to my mind as I expand, and plan for farther expansion.
> Luke


I would add number 4. Father time to this list, and then probably put number three to number 1, but let's just say my new list is in no particular order mperry, whats the rush? If you start slow (take the idea of doubling your hive count each year, it is one I have done successfully each year), you will soon know the/your limitations and the right number of hives for you and your business.


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## Beetastic (Apr 12, 2011)

> year 1 5 hives to 13 $5,685.55
> year 2 13 hives to 50 $12,013.35


What are you spending your money on? 



> I have watched in horror as naive new beekeepers launch themselves into $50,000 to $100,000 commitments to "Foundationless TF" systems.
> 
> Locally, these ventures are expansions of Marie Antoinette-style hobby farms subsidized by Silicon Valley millions. In my county, despite gold-plated inputs, these are predictable and epic disasters. The well-heeled semi-aristocrats can absorb the capital loss, I don't get the impression mPerry89 is in this same fortunate circumstance.


Really, you've known a few new, 1st year beekeepers who've dropped $100K? Also, there are plenty of non well-heeled semi-aristocrats up here as well. I am one of them. I understand you're trying to make a point, but cynicism and stereotypes usually aren't the best course. And I don't see why foundationless is so "bad". All my hives are medium foundationless. I don't have to spend the time installing foundation, nor paying for it, and the honey spins out the same in my extractor.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

How many hives you run Beetastic? I did some rough calculations, setting up 37 hives for his conditions (assumed 3 medium supers, two deeps for brood) was close to $4k alone using middle of the road pricing. That did not include shipping or assembly.


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

Beetastic said:


> What are you spending your money on?


aprox. $250 per new split. on average of 3.5 drawn comb supers, top, bottom, excluder and queen bee.

$10 per hive in medication
$20 per hive for winter feed, spring feed, pollen patties

year 1 was 1,000 for 36 frame extractor.
year 2 I have 5,000 for any equipment rental I will need during extracting and possibly a used un-capper.
year 3 and 4 I have 10k allocated for equipment rental and extracting equipment purchases.
year 5 I added and additional 5,000 for part time help during busy times.
My wife is always helping too, otherwise I would probably tack on at least 10k for paid help.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

I know of several instances in the past year where "investors" purchased 100 hives (around $30,000) and don't know what they spent on supporting equipment. They were unhappy to find that after they were stacked in a staging area for several weeks they had several deadouts. Shocked to learn they needed to buy supers. They were put in outyards with stocking densities 3 to 5 times what is common. First year yield on one of these operations was 700lbs honey. No real plan to make increase or replacement queens and not purchasing queens. I have no idea what their winter losses were and I steer clear of these operations. Some of these "investors" were novice beekeepers, others were 3rd parties. 

Being foundationless or treatment-free was never discussed in those operations - I think it's secondary to the real issue which is the knowledge and time required to keep 40 (as I was told) or 100 hives alive. Second is the question: What is your tolerance for loss? Make a mistake and suffer the losses 30%? (or maybe 80% as noted above) and then multiply that by the number of hives under your care. 

I ordered 10 queens last fall for early April, I suspect some of these operations will be popping covers and counting deadouts this weekend - replacement bees and queens are sold out until mid-May...


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## THALL (Apr 6, 2010)

I like what Mike Palmer told me when I asked him if setting out to become a full time beekeeper is realistic, his reply was "don't quit your day job"


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## Beetastic (Apr 12, 2011)

> I know of several instances in the past year where "investors" purchased 100 hives (around $30,000) and don't know what they spent on supporting equipment. They were unhappy to find that after they were stacked in a staging area for several weeks they had several deadouts. Shocked to learn they needed to buy supers. They were put in outyards with stocking densities 3 to 5 times what is common. First year yield on one of these operations was 700lbs honey. No real plan to make increase or replacement queens and not purchasing queens. I have no idea what their winter losses were and I steer clear of these operations. Some of these "investors" were novice beekeepers, others were 3rd parties.


"A fool and his money are easily parted." Wow. It's farming, not real estate! I didn't mean to come off the wrong way, but I just can't imagine being a new beek and buying into 100's or 1000's of hives. Mind = blown.

JoshW - Seems like you've got a handle on it. Best of luck moving forward.


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## Beetastic (Apr 12, 2011)

> How many hives you run Beetastic? I did some rough calculations, setting up 37 hives for his conditions (assumed 3 medium supers, two deeps for brood) was close to $4k alone using middle of the road pricing. That did not include shipping or assembly.


I run 30 hives when things are good. I've built up over the last two years, and maybe if I looked at all my receipts I would get a shock  Anyway,that's my magic happy number. I am all mediums and foundationless, so I was doing the math for my business. Mea Culpa.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

It's all good. We're just not used to having to stack 3-5 supers on a hive around these parts. I can get by with 1, maybe 2 supers, but that wouldn't fly up there.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Beetastic said:


> Really, you've known a few new, 1st year beekeepers who've dropped $100K? I understand you're trying to make a point, but cynicism and stereotypes usually aren't the best course.


Yes, I have. The Silicon Valley folks semi-retire to a "hobby farm". They learn with disappointment (after the real estate agent drives off in her Mercedes) that to make a vinyard/winery combo work you need at least $20 million liquid these days. The Avocado orchard is about $5 million liquid. However, they spent their liquid cash on the Italian marble bathroom. The Beekeeping and/or Lavender Farm is the next least-costly alternative that still fits the "landed gentry" dreamscape.

I call these folks (to their face) the "Knoll Set" --- cause they have local aspirations of being like Hearst Castle and planting their palace where the wind blows strongest all day long.

Part of the particular pathology of these clowns is that they believe anything they read on the internet -- because after all they invented it. Conversely, anyone with dirt under their fingernails is an ignorant hayseed tradesman, unwilling to adapt to the brilliant new world where all-real experience is dead wrong. Since the internet is jam-packed with folks promoting unprovable "treatment free" systems -- they gravitate to the TF world.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Keep in mind....a hundred k in CA is like....like.....ten k to the rest of the country.


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## Beetastic (Apr 12, 2011)

> Keep in mind....a hundred k in CA is like....like.....ten k to the rest of the country.


Depends on your set of friends! $100K is still a lot of money to people out here. But it is strange to go on a Saturday bike ride and see the Ferrari club filling up at the Chevron, while being passed by Tesla upon Tesla. 



> Yes, I have. The Silicon Valley folks semi-retire to a "hobby farm". They learn with disappointment (after the real estate agent drives off in her Mercedes) that to make a vinyard/winery combo work you need at least $20 million liquid these days. The Avocado orchard is about $5 million liquid. However, they spent their liquid cash on the Italian marble bathroom. The Beekeeping and/or Lavender Farm is the next least-costly alternative that still fits the "landed gentry" dreamscape.


At least they'll be well rested and clean after a hard day inspecting hives


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

mperry89 said:


> While I value your advice, Dee Lusby in AZ is a commercial small cell beekeeper who runs +700 hives and makes her living from selling honey. I've seen Dee's hives in person, and they are awesome. I would encourage you to go out there sometime and see for yourself that it can be done and that it works quite well.


Then why are you asking this question here and not on organicbeekeeping.com? Ask your questions where you are most likely to get the answers you want.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JRG13 said:


> How many hives you run Beetastic?


Something you could find out from looking at his/her Profile under About Me if she/he and others filled out the form. I wish people would do that so I can see how many hives for how long and such.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

mark there be a reason for lack of info. lol


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, I know.


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## Heintz88 (Feb 26, 2012)

THALL said:


> I like what Mike Palmer told me when I asked him if setting out to become a full time beekeeper is realistic, his reply was "don't quit your day job"


And yet he's still keeping bees.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Something you could find out from looking at his/her Profile under About Me if she/he and others filled out the form. I wish people would do that so I can see how many hives for how long and such.

Am I the only one that thinks this statement/request rather ironic? :scratch: When you look at the "About Me" for this member - there is _nothing _there.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

That's weird. Am I the only one who can see it? My Date of Birth, Biography and such? It's there when I look for it.

Rader, r u clicking on my screen name and then clicking on About Me? I checked yours and it say you've had bees since 2012, and where u r from, but not much else.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Nothing there for me, either. Just the Statistics. Did you customize and hide it?

Rusty


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Mark, your profile is not visible to me. As a point of reference, I can see the profile of another poster on this thread, _Heintz88_:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/member.php?84125-Heintz88


Here is what I see. Click to enlarge ....


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Ugh. I just saw Marks profile page and the photo.

There should be a caption, "There were three beekeepers in the photo, but Mark ate the first one and guess who's next?"


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Did you customize and hide it?
> 
> Rusty


I have no idea how to do that.

What statistics show.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> Ugh. I just saw Marks profile page and the photo.
> 
> There should be a caption, "There were three beekeepers in the photo, but Mark ate the first one and guess who's next?"


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Statistics

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That is all that shows.

Rusty


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Whereas, WLC is using a photo of Casper on his Profile Page.
> Up yours Wally.


I bet they used to call you 'Slim'.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

mpperry89

I have read the thread, lots of debate but none really asks an essential question. What is your business model? Are you expanding for expanding's sake? Does your customer base support your expansion? Are you going to pollinate, sell honey, sell bees? Does your market support any/all of the above? 
Farming sounds really romantic and noble. Real farming is math and work. Frankly nothing limits expansion more than your revenue. 

Do you know why the TF Small Cell Foundationless Kool-Aid salesmen preach as they do?
Because they can sell more Kool-Aid. [/I]It is their business model. It's their story. It's part of their math. [/I] If nobody buys in the math wouldn't work for them. The business model would die and so would TF, small cell, Foundationless. It's like the organic story. It's a market maker. I applaud them for it. Don't be fooled into thinking you can commercially pollinate, or cultivate honey(large scale, or even sell packages on a commercial scale using the TF, small cell, foundationless business model. That is not what it is for. 
That is for the 'niche' market. The idyllic hobby beekeeper, or the organic shopper in search of a story where the product is secondary. 

Treatment free is really easy when you are a hobbyist. Don't treat and 2 hives die, buy two packages. Who cares.
Have 200 hives die, tell me how you feel about treatment free. Or as I call it 'neglect'.

Small cell, big cell who cares? But seriously I don't think foundationless can be done on a commercial scale. I just can't picture it.
1.) Uncapping on a large scale
2.) Running frames in a commercial extractor

I believe there is a saying for gamblers with a 'system'. Welcome to Vegas! I am pretty sure the direction you are headed the house has an edge greater than 50% but good luck anyway.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Deepsouth said:


> Id say take it slow and dont get ahead of yourself. It takes time.
> You could have all the experience in the world keeping a few hives and think you have alot of knowledge with beekeeping. But go from a few hives to a few hundred is a whole new ballgame. When I expanded a few years ago I went from 10 hives to 50 and the first couple years I was getting overwhelmed until I learned that I had to change some of my techniques to deal with 50 hives part time on my own.
> It takes Time


What changes did you have to make?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

jodietoadie well said. Its a little different when bees are your income. never had a hive that was not for income and I have bees rather than girls. lol


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

JoshW said:


> Just 13, everything is ready and in order to go to 50 this spring. also have canola and 3rd alfalfa agreement for this season. I cant wait to see those bees flying through fields of yellow and blue. Snow is melting and spring is knocking on the door.


Well Josh, I'm just 1 year ahead of you, good luck!


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

Jodietoadie +1


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If money is no objective for you then buy out a few established bee yards in your area. You can really expand using this method. Like others have mentioned that space, equipments, good foraging areas, time involved, good bee genetics and money are the real limitation to your growth. Spread these factors over 2 to 3 years to see what you got. Beekeeping is a slow process (time limitation) at least it is for me.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JoshW said:


> I am currently expanding an apiary. I am expanding by 4x and my greatest limit to growth is that my bees do not produce enough honey with the heavy splitting to cover all my equipment costs. In my area we get a lot of honey so at 4x splitting they produce enough to cover the hive component costs.
> 
> Where I run into issues is purchasing equipment such as a truck, trailer, uncapper, and other extracting aids. I also have to convert my honey extracting facility to conform to industry regulations to sell honey wholesale. This will take up most of my year and winter, and hopefully it gets approved.
> 
> ...


That was a good post Josh. That long term objective is key. 

Say Josh, in regards to registering your extracting facility, before you spend a dime on renovations start by developing an operations manual, then analyses each step and identify all the hazards. Then you can address each hazard individually and not get so overwhelmed. 
My facility makes registration easy as I built the place with a plan in hand.


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## Deepsouth (Feb 21, 2012)

WBVC said:


> What changes did you have to make?


Nothing drastic just a few little things here and there.
A main issue I had was spending too much time in the hives. I learned how to get in, identify what they need and get out in as little time as possible to be able to stay ahead of all 50. The first year was a swarming nightmare. 
I used to make splits to control swarming but once I got the hive counts that I have I just dont have the time right now to manage 50 hives and a 100 nucs. So now I just reverse and super before our first flow which saved me time and it seems to working very well
The bottom line in my opinion is its about time spent in the bee yard. Learn to work fast so you would need as little help as possible for a better profit in the long run.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

The original poster, mperry, stated in his "Welcome" post that he and a partner were investigating an Ithaca, NY area CSA model for honey. CSA (community supported ag) involves consumers buying "shares" in advance, and receiving product at harvest. CSA is a trendy method for distributing market greens -- produce based CSA often charge $400-600 for a seasonal (20 week) selection of greens with periodic deliveries to pick-up locations. 

CSA experience relatively high churn, so recruitment of new consumers is a continuing and substantial time commitment. A single product honey-based CSA has the following headwind -- honey is a relatively infrequently consumed foodstuff -- Based on my experience, 10 or 20 lb. shares (3 to 6 quarts of honey) are the annual typical consumption. Using $7/lb. as a "premium" price to be paid by the recruited members - this involves an advance $70-$150 buy-in. My guess is member recruitment will involve substantial and continuing sales presentations.

MPerry could piggy-back on an existing CSA -- but adding $70 to the existing buy-in (pushing the price to about $650) is going to reduce demand and raise churn. 

Rounding numbers, 100 *production* hives might average 100 lbs., yielding 5 tons of harvested honey. Distributing this at 10 lbs per consumer ($70 buy-in) requires 1000 consumers. Many CSA top out at far smaller numbers. Simply organizing distribution to 1000 consumers is daunting ("Sorry, my daughter has a soccer game on Saturday, can I come on Tuesday evening?"). The consumers are already buying honey somewhere (and at a lower price), so the sales job is going to involve product substitution. Using 100 as the production hive unit, as mPerry said he had a partner, so we have 2 full "salaries" to account for in his proposed 250-hive model business.

MPerry could expand hive count by internal increase (involving several years of build-up and winter loss), for the hardware, maintenance and transportation cost of the hives (say $180 initial, and $80/year). Alternatively, he could spend the capital and buy a working business (say $300/hive). If he builds out on internal increase, he is going to have 3-5 years prior to full production and must "subsidize" the business by working a day job. This internal subsidy means the cost of capital (human or loan dollar) are essentially the same. How will a CSA model "pay back" 5 years of invested time? CSA produce in my local area often involve legacy farms (paid off, and tractors long-ago fully depreciated) expanding their distribution networks. CSA produce is based on annual recoverable cost of production, not paying off a long-term loan of human capital.

Processing 5 to 10 tons of honey requires a food-safe honey house and production equipment. Containers for packaging honey for the consumer is an operational cost, and must be subtracted from the per pound pricing to calculate net. How is a honey-house capitalized and depreciated?

Moving 100 hives (and honey supers) requires a substantial truck. The hives could be stationary, but the beekeeper would forgo optimizing for honey flow, and forgo pollination income, and require the location to be free of any periodic bee-poison. "Organic" pesticides (pyrethreums and Neem) are some of the most toxic agents to bees.

The beekeeper with permanent, non-moving hives is going to have lower production and income than the mobile beekeeper. He will be competitively disadvantaged. Since even fully competitive beekeepers with optimum economic scale are just earning a wage, why would a non-competitive one have excess income.

Our model unit 100 production hives are going to experience annual loss, and make-up will not contribute to production. This requires a nursery/nuc yard of 25 hives held for replacement/increase. The annual cost to maintain the nuc yard and labor demands of the make-up are a sunk cost against the production total. Again the human cost of capital is roughly equivalent to the market value of simply buying the make-up -- so figure $100-150/unit + $80/first year non-production maintenance.

In conclusion, to depreciate the human-time cost of build-up to production, honey-house purchase or lease, truck and large equipment purchase or lease, and recruitment of a larger consumer base (advertising, commissions, bad debts) is going to require at least 10 years of annualized cost accounting. Set this against the likelihood of catastrophic loss at one point in that model decade. Consider that in 10 years of working without a vacation (or even a weekend off) might become tiring for mPerry or his partner, and they might want out.


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## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

mperry,

I have read this thread a few times, and I still don't see a working business model from you or basically anyone, that will work in this area. Ithaca is located in the heart of the Finger Lakes, and that brings a lot of tourism through out the year. Have you investigated the number of small beekeepers in the area that are selling honey at all the local shops and tourism hot spots. Its loaded with local honey and I would think that the market would be at or very near the saturation point. 
Foundationless will work if you choose to go that route, but will take a number of years to build 250ish hives totally small cell or foundationless. That is going to for go most of your honey crop for each year, so that will slow your increase. With enough capital and initial investment, you could get to 250 your first year, just spend the cash to buy them as established hives.
As for the treatment free crowd, I have been trying treatment free for the last 3 years and the writing is on the wall. 30-80 percent losses with totals of over 100 colonies lost in 3 years, that hurts like getting punched in the stomach. Trying to build to 250 colonies on which ever treatment regiment and however you choose to use the frames, is a learning experience and I don't think that most people will have a grasp on how to manage 250 colonies for a full time income. I know 2 commercial beeks that run at least 500 colonies for a single full time income, and I know 2 sideliners that run over 250 colonies that still work full time. 
Running 250 colonies will require a lot of capital and sweat equity and most folks that aspire to run that number either don't have the ability, the capital or the knowledge to keep them going.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> The original poster, mperry, stated in his "Welcome" post that he and a partner were investigating an Ithaca, NY area CSA model for honey. CSA (community supported ag) involves consumers buying "shares" in advance, and receiving product at harvest. CSA is a trendy method for distributing market greens -- produce based CSA often charge $400-600 for a seasonal (20 week) selection of greens with periodic deliveries to pick-up locations.
> 
> CSA experience relatively high churn, so recruitment of new consumers is a continuing and substantial time commitment. A single product honey-based CSA has the following headwind -- honey is a relatively infrequently consumed foodstuff -- Based on my experience, 10 or 20 lb. shares (3 to 6 quarts of honey) are the annual typical consumption. Using $7/lb. as a "premium" price to be paid by the recruited members - this involves an advance $70-$150 buy-in. My guess is member recruitment will involve substantial and continuing sales presentations.
> 
> ...


So you're sayin' : "That's a long row to hoe."


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## mperry89 (Mar 12, 2014)

Wow. I am leaving for the weekend, but I look forward to reading some of these recent and very well-thought out suggestions I've been receiving. I think it's awesome that people are willing to spend so much time thinking critically about this. I've been taking a small farm business planning course for the past few weeks, and I'm trying to be real about this so I am taking these suggestions seriously.

Thanks,
Mike


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

mperry89 said:


> Wow. I am leaving for the weekend,


No, you don't. If you are serious about the biz, you are going to working weekends in March for the next eternity. Otherwise you are just blowing smoke, and trying to get random strangers to do your Ag Biz homework for you. Enjoy the Music Festival, but I'm over and out.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

JWChesnut said:


> No, you don't. If you are serious about the biz, you are going to working weekends in March for the next eternity. Otherwise you are just blowing smoke, and trying to get random strangers to do your Ag Biz homework for you. Enjoy the Music Festival, but I'm over and out.


Bingo!! In my world and that of many commercials, days in the months of March and April, don't have names, only numbers.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JWChesnut said:


> The original poster, mperry, stated in his "Welcome" post that he and a partner were investigating an Ithaca, NY area CSA model for honey. CSA (community supported ag) involves consumers buying "shares" in advance, and receiving product at harvest. CSA is a trendy method for distributing market greens -- produce based CSA often charge $400-600 for a seasonal (20 week) selection of greens with periodic deliveries to pick-up locations.
> 
> CSA experience relatively high churn, so recruitment of new consumers is a continuing and substantial time commitment. A single product honey-based CSA has the following headwind -- honey is a relatively infrequently consumed foodstuff -- Based on my experience, 10 or 20 lb. shares (3 to 6 quarts of honey) are the annual typical consumption. Using $7/lb. as a "premium" price to be paid by the recruited members - this involves an advance $70-$150 buy-in. My guess is member recruitment will involve substantial and continuing sales presentations.
> 
> ...


Since beekeepers have been producing honey and selling it locally for generations around Ithaca that may be a hard niche to break into, especially as a single product CSA. I guess it could depend on who one hangs out with.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Since beekeepers have been producing honey and selling it locally for generations around Ithaca that may be a hard niche to break into, especially as a single product CSA. I guess it could depend on who one hangs out with.


The difficulty in CSA, sometimes, is indeed not competing with the big producers and big chains, but rather competing with other CSA producers for a small number of people willing to pay a bit more for local products.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Their post about Dee Lusby and her operation put the writing on the wall for me already.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Mperry89:

It really does take a lot of assets to build up a business to the point where you can live comfortably off of the take home net $.

That being said, you have to be able to get back your initial investment quickly while generating a profit that can fund your expansion and provide for your own income.

That's the first thing you'll have to prove to yourself before you expand no matter where you're starting.

You don't want to be stuck with both a 'money pit' and a 'time bandit' at the same time.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

jim lyon said:


> days in the months of March and April, don't have names, only numbers.


ha ha ha, ya,


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## Leather Jim (Jun 30, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> Their post about Dee Lusby and her operation put the writing on the wall for me already.


Is that good or bad?

Jim


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Leather Jim said:


> Is that good or bad?
> 
> Jim


I don't know the answer to that question, but the idea is to model something that can be replicated in your particular environment. I'd say Dee's operation is not one that could be duplicated easily


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## cjfoster72 (May 30, 2013)

I've read every post in this thread. I am not an expert by any stretch, and I read a lot of posts that made good sense....and some that didn't. Why does it sound to me like mperry89 just got raked through the coals and crucified?...all in response to simply asking for some expert advice? Music Festival? Did he say that? Maybe he's going to his aunt's funeral. Why be so judgemental?

Good luck mperry89!!! Hope it works out for you!


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Go back and read the first post. He asked for opinions from experienced beekeepers on his plan and he got what he requested ... from experienced beekeepers. Some responses may be a bit heavy handed, some may be off base, but I think if he sifts through everything he will be able to make more sound decisions based on the advice given. Sometimes threads stray off onto rabbit trails that are not really related to the topic, but there is enough solid information here for him to digest and use in his planning. 

As you mentioned, we wish the best of luck to mperry89


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

cjfoster72 said:


> like mperry89 just got raked through the coals and crucified?...


just wait til he expands his operations... ha ha, getting raked through the coals make it sound easy


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

He's looking into beekeeping as a small business.

If he can start up, and make a supplemental income selling honey for example (pretty common), he'll be O.K. .

I think that he can make a go of it. While his target should be around 400-500 hives, that's not a reasonable short term objective starting with a single hive.

20-50 hives is more realistic as a starting point. Especially without experience.

He should investigate FSA loans as part of his small business plan:

https://www.fsa.usda.gov/FSA/webapp?area=home&subject=fmlp&topic=landing

This might help Mike organize himself:

http://nebeginningfarmers.org/farmers/


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## mperry89 (Mar 12, 2014)

cjfoster72 said:


> I've read every post in this thread. I am not an expert by any stretch, and I read a lot of posts that made good sense....and some that didn't. Why does it sound to me like mperry89 just got raked through the coals and crucified?...all in response to simply asking for some expert advice? Music Festival? Did he say that? Maybe he's going to his aunt's funeral. Why be so judgemental?
> 
> Good luck mperry89!!! Hope it works out for you!


Thanks for the support! I appreciate everybody's advice. I've spent enough time with curmudgeonly farmers to not take it all personally.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

May you one day be one yourself.


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## mbear (May 18, 2017)

So how did this story end?


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