# Is Lazutin (horizontal hive) too big ?



## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

So experimenting with couple of different hives. 

Lazutin Horizontal Hive - from the plans, it hold about 25 top bars (double deep frames), thats about 5 regular deep bodies. 
Isnt that too much ? Do Bees ever get to that volume ? 

Reading David Heaf experiment page, it looks like they take forever to even get to 15 frames. 



http://www.dheaf.plus.com/framebeekeeping/oneboxhive.htm


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

You could put an entrance at each end, build a couple of follower boards, and put two colonies in there. When they build up you could move one to a new hive or you could figure out a way to super upwards.
Bill


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## Pedro Blom (Feb 25, 2015)

I have just read the book "keeping bees with a smile" and want to build and try out a hive like that. I'm also a bit confused, how big i should build it.
On the website horizontalhive.com theres a nother hive promoted called the Layens hive. That one seems a lot smaller..


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Pedro Blom said:


> I have just read the book "keeping bees with a smile" and want to build and try out a hive like that. I'm also a bit confused, how big i should build it.
> On the website horizontalhive.com theres a nother hive promoted called the Layens hive. That one seems a lot smaller..


I built it with same dimensions as described on that horizontalhive.com. This is different from Layens hive. 

However, after trying the Lazutin hive box for 6 months, I gave up on the idea and cut it down to make two horizontal boxes that take deep size Lang frames. 

I contacted author of horizontalhive and he said he is no longer recommending Lazutin hive (atleast in USA) due to lack of extractor equipment. Apparently there is extracting equipment that can take Layens frames, so he is recommending it. 

FYI.


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## hankstump (Jul 30, 2014)

I built a 32 frame long hive using deep frames. I put 18 frames of bees in it in February, and they easily filled it up this year. So, yeah, they can fill up the space. I do have my doubts about those really big frames though. Maybe OK for brood and put some supers above for honey. 

Phil in Fremont


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Bees have a natural preference for a cavity with roughly 2 cubic feet of volume. A Langstroth deep is 1.86 cubic feet. The Lazutin hive is about 9 cubic feet.

Give them a frame to build comb much more than 12 inches deep and they will fill it with odd built comb with lots of drone cells on the outside edges. Only the core of the brood nest will be built of worker size cells. During a honey flow, bees in your area should be able to fill 4 or 5 deeps full of honey. This suggests they would fully utilize the large hive. Remove the honey leaving a huge hive cavity with no honey stored in it and the bees will abandon it. At that stage, a division board would be required to keep the bees working effectively in the brood area and to set up proper wintering.

May I suggest looking closely at the Jackson Horizontal Hive. It holds 25 langstroth frames. It is designed to be built of corrugated plastic, but can just as easily be made of wood. I suggest modifying it to 35 inches long (interior measurement) to fit 25 Langstroth 1 3/8 deep frames. The 32 inch design was intended for tropical bees that are smaller than European honeybees in the U.S.


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## d.justins (Aug 31, 2009)

Just a quick reply (to any who reads this in the future), Fusion_power's information is based on results of tests in a specific temperature / hardiness zone. A very specific reason for building a deeper frame is for those who live in lower hardiness zones or hives that experience lengthened winter clustering periods. The Lazutin hive is designed to work in zone 4 in Russia -- a fairly long wintering period. I suspect 16 inch depth is good for many areas in the United States, but really this should be determined by your experience in your climate. 

Hive volume itself is not really what is considered in a horizontal hive, as you adjust this with the division board. The primary focus should be frame depth and length, according to overwintering needs. Then the total length of a horizontal hive can be 30 feet long if your bees can continue to fill the frames through the season -- or, it can be just long enough to support your brood nest and two frames of honey if you want to continually swap out frames... The length of the hive is determined by your management scheme and how many frames your bees can fill in a season. 

All of this is very subjective, which is what Lazutin makes very clear in his book, but frame depth x length is the most important factor to how your bees overwinter and build up. Read his book... it's 400 pages, but i read it in a few days -- easy to read and literally changed everything for me.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

DaisyNJ said:


> So experimenting with couple of different hives.
> 
> Lazutin Horizontal Hive - from the plans, it hold about 25 top bars (double deep frames), thats about 5 regular deep bodies.
> Isnt that too much ? Do Bees ever get to that volume ?
> ...


We use 5-6 deep boxes with our langstroths. These hives have low mite loads, overwintered strong, and a great queen. I like the idea of follower boards. That is what I am using in my long langstroth that has 42 frames


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

I also read the book "keeping bees with a smile" I am in zone 4 and it sounded like he may be onto something. I shook a package into a 10 frame deep this spring. A month later I placed it in one of the long deep hives. I used the plans in the book for the double deep long Lang design, but modified lots of it. I ended up using 48 inch as the outside length to optimize 4x8 sheets of plywood, the inside is 8 inches less as I used store sized 2x4 for the walls. The package last year ended up filling the hive on year 1. So IMO if I start with a normal over winter size colony say 20 frames (2 deeps) I will either need to remove honey or do a split or I will be sending off a mongo size swarm. It is now out in the winter of Northern Michigan, I liked working it as you can leave most of it covered, while working the edge. I used 1x6 cedar boards for the top (inner cover), so I could open 6 inches at a time. I did not open the brood nest at all for the entire summer. I would open, work to the frames ,being drawn, add 4 or 6 more, close. I did use a follower board. Only thing I can see for an issue is moving it. I made a 5.5 inch base with drawers for "observation" A telescoping lid that can hold 3 layers of 3/4 inch foam and cover the edges of the 1x6 and still come down onto the hive. the main box empty requires 2 people to move it , with base lid and bees it would be a fork lift project. If they winter I may make a couple more. The insulation effect of the 2x4 wall should be a help when its -35 degrees out, like last week. I would recommend to use the follower board, the one time I did not they started combs next to the foundation frames. The size is entirely dependant on how prolific your Queen is, and the length of your summer, so the unit would have to be tuned to the locality a bit. this type hive would work IMO if you do not need to move it. You can split using follower boards, and recombine, prior to the flow to help with re-queening and polulation, Should be fun to play with. Build yours what ever size you feel comfortable with, less than 40 frames total and you would need to be prepared to harvest some honey early, or use non-Prolific Queens.

Gray Goose


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## Mikro (9 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> I also read the book "keeping bees with a smile" I am in zone 4 and it sounded like he may be onto something. I shook a package into a 10 frame deep this spring. A month later I placed it in one of the long deep hives. I used the plans in the book for the double deep long Lang design, but modified lots of it. I ended up using 48 inch as the outside length to optimize 4x8 sheets of plywood, the inside is 8 inches less as I used store sized 2x4 for the walls. The package last year ended up filling the hive on year 1. So IMO if I start with a normal over winter size colony say 20 frames (2 deeps) I will either need to remove honey or do a split or I will be sending off a mongo size swarm. It is now out in the winter of Northern Michigan, I liked working it as you can leave most of it covered, while working the edge. I used 1x6 cedar boards for the top (inner cover), so I could open 6 inches at a time. I did not open the brood nest at all for the entire summer. I would open, work to the frames ,being drawn, add 4 or 6 more, close. I did use a follower board. Only thing I can see for an issue is moving it. I made a 5.5 inch base with drawers for "observation" A telescoping lid that can hold 3 layers of 3/4 inch foam and cover the edges of the 1x6 and still come down onto the hive. the main box empty requires 2 people to move it , with base lid and bees it would be a fork lift project. If they winter I may make a couple more. The insulation effect of the 2x4 wall should be a help when its -35 degrees out, like last week. I would recommend to use the follower board, the one time I did not they started combs next to the foundation frames. The size is entirely dependant on how prolific your Queen is, and the length of your summer, so the unit would have to be tuned to the locality a bit. this type hive would work IMO if you do not need to move it. You can split using follower boards, and recombine, prior to the flow to help with re-queening and polulation, Should be fun to play with. Build yours what ever size you feel comfortable with, less than 40 frames total and you would need to be prepared to harvest some honey early, or use non-Prolific Queens.
> 
> Gray Goose


How has the Hive worked out for you? Please share photos. Been thinking about going with the Lazutin Insulated as laid out in Keeping bees with a smile 2nd edition. Will be using Cedar as well. Have you been successful over wintering the bees? Do you think going with a Layens insulated as on Horizontalhive.com is a better plan?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Mikro said:


> How has the Hive worked out for you? Please share photos. Been thinking about going with the Lazutin Insulated as laid out in Keeping bees with a smile 2nd edition. Will be using Cedar as well. Have you been successful over wintering the bees? Do you think going with a Layens insulated as on Horizontalhive.com is a better plan?


for your location, I would not Omit insulation.
either 3 inches of foam, 3.5 of pink fiberglass, or 2 of wool would be my recommendation, having property in the UP and having bees for a while. Greg B just posted a video of a guy doing Layens in a shed. IMO that would be a good way to go.
Use 2x6 insulated walls and 8 inches in the roof of the shed. 1 or 2 100 watt old style light bulbs and the bees,, would bring the shed up 15 to 20 degrees. cold will cause extra stores consumption, which would have the gut fill before spring, solve that and you are well on your way.

At least if I was to keep there that is the trail I would explore.

good luck

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

If I was in a situation where I'd afford running a static bee yard (a large property) - I'd just stick with standard Dadant or Ukrainian long hives and call it a day.

Standard deep Dadant long hives just coming out of the winter in a very Northern Ural region - very similar to Canada.
Go to about 6:00 and start watching.
(491) Весна затянулась. Ждём облёта. - YouTube

An excellent long hive dedicated video channel - it is packed with very innovative ideas and the most basic info - highly recommend.


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## Mikro (9 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> for your location, I would not Omit insulation.
> either 3 inches of foam, 3.5 of pink fiberglass, or 2 of wool would be my recommendation, having property in the UP and having bees for a while. Greg B just posted a video of a guy doing Layens in a shed. IMO that would be a good way to go.
> Use 2x6 insulated walls and 8 inches in the roof of the shed. 1 or 2 100 watt old style light bulbs and the bees,, would bring the shed up 15 to 20 degrees. cold will cause extra stores consumption, which would have the gut fill before spring, solve that and you are well on your way.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. Sounds like a well insulated hive. Just really heavy and a lot of work. But if the bees survive that would be great. I still have not figured out which hive design to go with. I'd like to try to catch a swarm once the snow stops.


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## Mikro (9 mo ago)

GregB said:


> If I was in a situation where I'd afford running a static bee yard (a large property) - I'd just stick with standard Dadant or Ukrainian long hives and call it a day.
> 
> Standard deep Dadant long hives just coming out of the winter in a very Northern Ural region - very similar to Canada.
> Go to about 6:00 and start watching.
> ...


Do you have any sites that have Ukrainian long hives build plans in English? Heard about the Ukrainian long hives but never found anywhere that has any plans for them. The only plans that, I have seen are the plans from the book Keeping bees with a smile. On page 301 is a newer style Lazutin hive. Issue is no frame jigs or swarm boxes for it. Not sure if the Layens is good for me or not. The Layens needs more insulation throughout the entire hive for my area. For, Dr. Leo Layens works. He does not get the cold and snow like, I do. Got 3 inches of snow today. 

How does the Ukrainian long hives compare to the Lazutin US design # 4 as in keeping bees with a smile page 301 2nd edition?

Do you have any videos you can share that are in english? Subtititles do not work for me. It would be awesome if you would start posting videos that are in english. Also be nice if you profile was viewable so people can see your contributions on here. Do you know of any sites in english that have free plans or even books, I could buy with plans? Saw a book from David Heaf about a modified golden hive. Walmart is shipping it to me.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Mikro said:


> Do you have any sites that have Ukrainian long hives build plans in English?


Just do what this guy did (pretty sure I already pointed at at).

Understand that a fraction of an inch does not matter one way of the other (so to fit some historic spec).
Being compatible to Lang, however, does matter.

All the research and discussion and plans are all here - in this thread. The OP did great work for everyone else already.
If one to seriously try it - look no further - follow his steps - give it a practical try and see for yourself.

Layens, Lazutin and Double Deep Lang... oh my | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


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## Mikro (9 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Just do what this guy did (pretty sure I already pointed at at).
> Understand that a fraction of an inch does not matter one way of the other (so to fit some historic spec).
> Being compatible to Lang, however, does matter.
> 
> Layens, Lazutin and Double Deep Lang... oh my | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


Which guy? Do you have a username? A guy on youtube "enjoy beekeeping" posted this video of a Layens hive he built. He modified it by adding some inches to the hive. The inches gave more space under the frames to give better air circulation. He also put on a gable roof.


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## Mikro (9 mo ago)

GregB said:


> Just do what this guy did (pretty sure I already pointed at at).
> 
> Understand that a fraction of an inch does not matter one way of the other (so to fit some historic spec).
> Being compatible to Lang, however, does matter.
> ...


Need it narraored down a bit. The link has 216 posts with 11 pages of posts. That is a lot.


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## Mikro (9 mo ago)

David Heaf; Simon John PatersonTreatment Free Beekeeping (Paperback)



https://www.walmart.com/ip/Treatment-Free-Beekeeping-Paperback-9781913811006/770470573


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## Mikro (9 mo ago)

Mikro said:


> Do you have any sites that have Ukrainian long hives build plans in English? Heard about the Ukrainian long hives but never found anywhere that has any plans for them. The only plans that, I have seen are the plans from the book Keeping bees with a smile. On page 301 is a newer style Lazutin hive. Issue is no frame jigs or swarm boxes for it. Not sure if the Layens is good for me or not. The Layens needs more insulation throughout the entire hive for my area. For, Dr. Leo Layens works. He does not get the cold and snow like, I do. Got 3 inches of snow today.
> 
> How does the Ukrainian long hives compare to the Lazutin US design # 4 as in keeping bees with a smile page 301 2nd edition?
> 
> Do you have any videos you can share that are in english? Subtititles do not work for me. It would be awesome if you would start posting videos that are in english. Also be nice if you profile was viewable so people can see your contributions on here. Do you know of any sites in english that have free plans or even books, I could buy with plans? Saw a book from David Heaf about a modified golden hive. Walmart is shipping it to me.


It all boils down to frame size. For my area; a well insulated hive is needed. Looking to do a horizontal hive. Stacking and un-stacking boxes won't work. The question is how big of frame for the bees to over winter. The other question is where to get the build plans without reinventing the wheel. Lots of great hive videos but so far finding plans has not worked. Need something simple to build. Seen lots of great hive on European store sites. Shipping is to expensive, they don't ship overseas


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Mikro said:


> Need it narraored down a bit. The link has 216 posts with 11 pages of posts. That is a lot.


Look, I don't make money here. 
You need the info - you look for it.
This is a public forum.


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## Mikro (9 mo ago)

Have looked. Have not found.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Mikro said:


> Have looked. Have not found.
> 
> 
> Keep looking, learn to extrapolate! Greg is pointing out the wisdom of the saying " Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; show him how to fish and he can feed himself for life"


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

Mikro said:


> Have looked. Have not found.


You have it looked very hard.

As I've said, just start watching YouTube video on the kind of hives you want to learn about. You will find what you are looking for. And go from there.


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