# Plastic foundation vs. wax crimp wire foundation



## SallyD (Mar 12, 2011)

Hi All:
I am getting ready to order some hive equipment. I have always used the plastic foundation which is coated with wax. They only seem to draw that out during a flow or while feeding. What about the crimp wire foundation that is pure bees wax? Do bees seem to prefer that more? Would seem like it to me since is is bees wax and not the plastic. If you have experience using them both let me know what your thoughts are on them. Thank you!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If you put a mixture of undrawn foundation in a hive the bees will usually draw out the wax ones first before they even start on the waxed plastic ones. If you put in all waxed plastic foundation and there is a flow they will get right on it. If they dont need it they wont do much with wired wax either!

Plastic is a whole lot less work to install or refresh when the time comes.


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## Michael B (Feb 6, 2010)

I have used both and begun moving to plastic rite cell and foundationless frames. Bees seem not to prefer one to the other. During a flow they will draw everything. During a dearth they will stop producing wax and not draw much.

During the winter I can make up tons of boxes with frames and foundation and not worry about cold weather affecting the rite cell. With wax, I installed the foundation the day I wanted to use it.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

I have used both, and continue to use both plastic and wax foundation, sometimes mixed in the same box. I also use foundationless, gluing popsicle sticks onto the frame. This provides a reference for the bees. Last year my bees drew out some beautiful combs on the "popsicklestick" frames. It is best to alternate the foundationless with either plastic or with foundation.

At the start of the season (mid-April to May 1), when you want the queen to lay eggs like crazy, it is best to provide drawn out empty comb for her on 2 or 3 of the frames in the "brood chamber", if you have some, or can get some. Otherwise, she is "on hold" until comb can be drawn out for her to lay eggs.

I assume from your post that you have several years experience in beekeeping, and I cannot tell if you have already invested in a bunch of hives, or have a couple or 3 hives. That expressed, I would get some wood frames and wax foundation, so that you can have "CHUNK" honey. Also try some "popsicklestick" frames. Seeing the girls draw those frames out really blew my mind!

I hope this rambling reply helps.

PHil


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

bees will draw comb, if and when they need it. If there is no flow, and no feed, it's not likely they need space for storage, so, not likely they will draw any comb.

When we started 3 years ago, we went with all plastic frames, because it was just easier, no muss, no fuss with building and all the fiddly work involved. Others in our area started with wood frames and foundation, and yet others started going foundationless. At bee club meetings over time, we compared notes. Ultimately, we determined, there was no significant difference between thier hives and ours, in terms of how much comb was built, and when it was built.

What we did find, was significant variation amongst individual hives. Using our own as an example, in the spring of this year, we put fresh new drone frames (the green ones) into 3 hives, which looked to be roughly equal in strength, early in the season. Two of them had the frame fully built within a week. The third, never did get around to filling it completely, only got 2/3 of it built, on one side.

I've seen similar variations in building out a box of supers, with fresh new frames. During the early flow, one of the hives had it built, and filled, in 2 weeks. Hive right beside it, pretty much ignored the super. All of those frames came out of the same box, at the same time, so, it's not like there was a difference in the frames. Pop the top and look inside the hives, a difference in strength was not obvious, both were double deeps with bees on all 20 frames, and what appeared to be similar sized brood nests. Then later in the summer, when blackberries bloomed, the first hive didn't do much of anything, even tho they had 2 boxes of fully drawn frames (freshly extracted), and the second hive proceeded to draw out and fill the box they ignored earlier in the season.

I've given up on trying to accurately predict when a hive will draw comb, and how much. But, it's easy to predict when they wont, that's when there is no flow happening.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

The biggest drawback in using wax foundation is that if it is undrawn at the end of the flow of nectar into the hive, The bees tend to riddle the foundation using it for spare parts to finish projects started during the flow. Wax during a flow is actually produced as a bi product and used as needed. When no nectar is coming in, the bi product slows to a stop and the bees use the wasted wax (to them) from foundation in areas they are not going to live in this year. The bees will still draw out the plastic foundation next year even if they have stripped it. The wax foundation can be ruined and need replaced.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Interesting. I have not used plastic foundation that wasn't drawn but I have never had them tear down undrawn wax foundation. I wonder if it is because we don't get a serious dearth until fall.


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## SallyD (Mar 12, 2011)

I would love to go foundationless but am unsure about some things. First I am concerned when inspecting the hive if wax would break (warm weather) and then what? Sometimes I have broken the frames taking them out to look at. Also if you go foundationless the way to extract is crush and strain? It seems like they would need to build all that wax again to fill up the frame- with foundation they don't have to build all that wax again and it seems like you would get more honey. I am still learning (3rd year) but I sure appreciate your thoughts.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Sally you can pre wire you foundationless frames. Here is one being drawn out as drone sized but later got filled with honey. The bees will build right around the wire providing the hive is level side to side. You would still want to be a bit careful with first extraction but you can handle them easily.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You don't have to go 100% foundationless. You can take your older comb and cut out vertical slices between the wires and let the bees fill in the holes you created. That way you retain the strength for extracting and you let the bees build what they want.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> You don't have to go 100% foundationless. You can take your older comb and cut out vertical slices between the wires and let the bees fill in the holes you created. That way you retain the strength for extracting and you let the bees build what they want.


Who advocates doing this? 

Seems like a very labor intensive way to ruin a frame of comb in an effort to gain a few areas of naturally drawn comb. 

As was suggested by Crofter, pre-wire the frames....

The OP's "older comb" is plastic so there's no "slicing between wires" to be done.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

She was concerned about extraction. Doing as I suggested would solve that problem. Using a roto-zip would make it easy. You don't think wiring frames is not labor intensive?


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## SallyD (Mar 12, 2011)

Michael B said:


> I have used both and begun moving to plastic rite cell and foundationless frames. Bees seem not to prefer one to the other. During a flow they will draw everything. During a dearth they will stop producing wax and not draw much.
> 
> During the winter I can make up tons of boxes with frames and foundation and not worry about cold weather affecting the rite cell. With wax, I installed the foundation the day I wanted to use it.


Can you tell me a little bit more about the rite cell? I take it is wax? Will it fit in a specific style of frame only?
Thank you everyone for your replies!


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Ritecell is plastic foundation.. Similar to peirco but sold by MannLake... I've used it quite a bit.

I'm torn, the bees tend to draw wax out a little faster, but don't don't always draw it out correctly. Then the wax moths can make some serious damage on a wax only frame. 

The plastic is a little slower, but if you have any damage.. you just scrape it out and start over.. Assuming the bees don't fix it for you. The more frames I build the more I lean toward ritecell.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Mann lake also has the all plastic frame/foundation in small cell 4.9mm. Their Ritecell regular foundation is probably what we use the most of. Wax foundation basically cannot be shipped below freezing temperatures unless you waive any damage claims. Their shipping is free though I have to cross the boarder at Sault Michigan to pick it up. I can't match their price anywhere in canada.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

I switched to Perma-dent with SGX style glued wood frames from Kelley's. So far no problems. Bees take to it, no problem. 

Wax foundation is too much work, bows and dents easily requiring crosswiring.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

crofter said:


> Wax foundation basically cannot be shipped below freezing temperatures unless you waive any damage claims.


Beekeepers need a good chemist. There just seems to me that you could add something to the wax to make it more pliable at lower temperatures. There are all kinds of additives that they add to plastic to make it hard as glass or soft as a garden hose. This does not appear to me to be an insurmountable problem but I am not a chemist.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

You make my head hurt....

Just order your wax in advance of the cold weather, pick it up, or run foundationless/plastic.... Don't run a muck with adding random chemicals to the hive. There are more than enough problems without thinking up new reasons that aren't needed.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Messing with the wax would be intervening.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Whoo Hoo, you don't think plastic is a toxic chemical. Yes, let all beekeeper bury their head in the sand. How did they ever get plastic in the hive in the first place. It is probably a little different for you living in TN, vs. Ian living in Canada.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Whoo Hoo, you don't think plastic is a toxic chemical.


Rolls  Eyes

I'd rather do foundationless, but I was being practical.... I forgot who I was talking to again.... Carry on with your "superior" ideas... *stifles laughter*


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Messing with the wax would be intervening.


I don't need it Mike but maybe it would help those in Alaska and Canada. I have enough frames for my operation. I am thinking about roto-ziping my frames and going foundation less.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Whoo Hoo, you don't think plastic is a toxic chemical.

Ace, come on! 


You are proposing altering the substance of the wax in the foundation. (Remember your "chemist" comment?) That is significantly different than simply using beeswax applied to a plastic base. 

The beeswax can be just steamed off the plastic when the time come to recycle it. How does your chemist's concoction  of _plasticized beeswax_ get recycled?

:gh:


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> I have enough frames for my operation.


"operation"? 

Really Acebird? 

Do you really refer to your three hives as "an operation"? 

I think you need a larger operation.....


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Why do you need a roto-zip aka dremel tool to remove the comb? You are running wooden frames right? You wouldn't be running plastic frames and talking about cutting out the plastic foundation.

That would be all kinds of bass-ackwards.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

KevinR said:


> Why do you need a roto-zip aka dremel tool to remove the comb?


Someone mentioned in another thread that it would be labor intensive to remove comb from between the vertical wires in wax foundation.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

KevinR said:


> Why do you need a roto-zip aka dremel tool to remove the comb? You are running wooden frames right? You wouldn't be running plastic frames and talking about cutting out the plastic foundation.
> 
> That would be all kinds of bass-ackwards.


Acebird mistakenly thought that the op had plastic foundation, and in defense of a "bass-ackwards" idea he added the use of a Dremel tool. 



Acebird said:


> She was concerned about extraction. Doing as I suggested would solve that problem. Using a roto-zip would make it easy. You don't think wiring frames is not labor intensive?


Doing what you suggested would take longer than you imagine, make a mess, and disperse plastic chips and dust (which you consider to be toxic) over the remains of what had been a good frame of comb. 

Pre-wiring frames can be part of a "foundationless" beekeeper's labors.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> Acebird mistakenly thought that the op had plastic foundation, and in defense of a "bass-ackwards" idea he added the use of a Dremel tool.


What? Why do people have to speak for me? Please people, go back to the thread and see what the person was asking for and how the thread developed. Plastic foundation ... How would you get a roto-zip through plastic foundation? It has no cutting edges on the tip.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Someone mentioned in another thread that it would be labor intensive to remove comb from between the vertical wires in wax foundation.


Put it in a solar melter or use a knife... I cut out 100 or so frames that I culled this year... The only labor intensive part was trying to melt it all down.... Should have waited until summer, but I didn't want to feed the wax moths.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

> It has no cutting edges on the tip.


Actually they do.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Acebird said:


> Someone mentioned in another thread that it would be labor intensive to remove comb from between the vertical wires in wax foundation.


This thread:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...d-comb-wax-block-from-steam-melter&highlight=

shows a picture of my fabulous steam comb remover box that like a solar melter makes it easy to remove wax and cocoons from wired frames. The thread also has links to videos for similar steam devices.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I was partially mistaken... 

But Acebird's idea for destroying good comb would be effective, and I suppose it could be automated... 


:lpf:


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> How would you get a roto-zip through plastic foundation? It has no cutting edges on the tip.


Have you ever actually _used _a roto-zip, Ace? :scratch:



> The RotoSaw's compact, lightweight construction and ergonomic body are specifically designed to tackle plunge and freehand cuts in nearly any building material. It is compatible with all XBits™, Zip®Bits and XCores as well as the Circle Cutter Guide and the Dust Management Kit.
> 
> 5.5 AMP, 30,000 RPM MagnaCore Motor offers best in class power to weight ratio
> [HIGHLIGHT] Spiral Cutting allows you to make plunge cuts, [/HIGHLIGHT] freehand cuts, cut-outs and more
> ...



Do you understand what a "_plunge cut_" is? :s


:ws:

:gh:

Well, it looks like Barry beat me to the punch on this one!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Barry said:


> Actually they do.


Barry, put one of those in your roto-zip and then plunge it into plastic foundation. I'd hang on to both real tight.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

It wasn't my idea, it was yours.



> I am thinking about roto-ziping my frames and going foundation less.


Nice try!


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Barry, put one of those in your roto-zip and then plunge it into plastic foundation. I'd hang on to both real tight.


Your not machining some gummy metal like titanium, it's freaking plastic... More to the point, "if" your going to follow this "idea" then you would clamp the frame to a workbench.... 

A rotozip isn't much different than a router.. only smaller and cute.... I've cut aluminum plate with a router. The "plastic" foundation would be a joke....


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oie vey people. I did not suggest trying to roto-zip through plastic I suggested roto-ziping through wax comb which it will melt its way through very easily for the first plunge. Keven, broaden your experience and have a go at it. The bits are not like a router bit they push the chips forward and trying to plunge into plastic will load up the tip and most likely it will go running off where you don't want it to. Into a thick piece of wood it will burn up the tip. Don't try it in aluminum. You will get hurt. The tool was designed to trim a hole for electrical boxes in plaster board. IMO it doesn't work worth a **** for wood paneling although that may be one of it's suggested uses.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Do you understand what a "_plunge cut_" is? :s


I do but you don't know squat.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> I suggested roto-ziping through wax comb which it will melt its way through very easily


"melt"? 

Where is the heat going to come from? The friction from cold metal against wax? 

I think you would end up with a gummed up bit. 

I believe that the op has absolutely no intention of dicing up her good comb to follow your suggestion...


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Many additives have been tried over the years to stiffen beeswax, make it more pliable, etc. This includes paraffin, microceresin, etc. There were two MAJOR problems. The bees reject any wax that is not beeswax. Also, since beeswax is made into candles, it turned out that the candle industry rejects anything that is not pure beeswax.

I like to put supers on that are foundation-less or that have only small starter strips. It makes the best comb honey around. I've used both wired wax and plastic frame and foundation in brood chambers. The plastic has some advantages, but suffers a lot from lack of overall strength.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

_SallyD_, have we answered all the questions you had in your original post?  Is there anything else you'd like cleared up? :lookout:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Fusion_power said:


> Many additives have been tried over the years to stiffen beeswax, make it more pliable, etc. This includes paraffin, microceresin, etc. There were two MAJOR problems. The bees reject any wax that is not beeswax. Also, since beeswax is made into candles, it turned out that the candle industry rejects anything that is not pure beeswax.


There are many brilliant chemist in this country that have come up with materials that mimic human skin. I would never though out an idea solely because something was tried and failed. Obviously the goal would be to improve some of the properties of bees wax and still have the bees accept it. The comment about candles I don't understand. I would guess there are more candles made from wax that isn't bees wax then are.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Another solution in search of a problem..... I don't see why beekeepers can't plan ahead and order in advance... For someone that "Practicing non-intervention beekeeping", you seem awful keen on introducing new chemicals into the hive. *shrugs*


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Obviously the goal would be to improve some of the properties of bees wax and still have the bees accept it.


And the point of this "improvement" to beeswax that you are proposing is what? :scratch: To allow shipment of foundation in potentially freezing weather? 


:gh:



One alternative could be to _plan ahead ...._


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