# Special delivery arrived



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Member Dnichols is a wood working genius. I needed 240 Dadant depth frames and he knocked them out for me, beveled top bars and all. 

The quality is such that you can't even tell these are home made frames. So here is my Kudos to Dnichols :thumbsup:

The first pic shows the Dadant deep next to a Lang deep.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Very nice, Dnichols did a good job.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Another Rogue using Jumbo frames? Don't you know the new age beekeeper uses all mediums in eight frame hives? My new trick is using 30+ year old treatment free foundations stacked, one 5 1/4" and one a bit taller instead of ordering new polluted foundation.


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

I am interested in trying one of these hives as well. Bluegrass, do you build the boxes yourself?--I thought I remember one of the wooden ware makers advertizing the ablity to make custom box sizes but I cannot remember which one. You could easy make a simple box using 3/4 inch pine but being so large and heavy it would be nice to have finger joints.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Beecurious, do you build the boxes yourself?--

:scratch: :lookout: 

I haven't seen _Beecurious _participate in this thread yet! Did you really mean _Bluegrass_?


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

Yes--They both live in CT so I had a brain fart


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

xcugat- try humble abodes in Maine. i'm very pleased with their woodenware


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

Can they make to order reasonably? Maybe it was them I was thinking of?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

A shallow super stacked on top of a medium super adds up to about 12 1/4", or 1" deeper than an 11 1/4" frame. If you splice this combination together it will be a bit too deep but the worst thing that will happen is that you get a bit of ladder comb on the bottom of the frames. This is an easy way to get the box depth you need and if you change your mind you will still have two re-useable boxes left over. I have also sawed down deep supers and added about 2" of them to deep to make a Jumbo depth box. 1X12 lumber is usually too shallow to use by 3/8" of an inch.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

You can practice "eke" beekeeping and add a shim (eke) to the bottom of your deep boxes to gain the 11.75 depth box.

I traded 10 packages of bees for the hives through another member on here, but in the future will build the boxes myself. I am separating all my equipment; my Dadant stuff will be set up here in CT and all my Langstroth stuff I am sending to my yards in VT. I suspect that eventually everything will be Dadant size. The only reason I can think that they went out of style in the USA is that sawmills standardized and stopped milling anything over 1x12 and you need a 1x13 to make Dadant depth boxes. The boom of portable sawmill operators has made the 1x13 available again so maybe they will make a slight comeback. Or 2 1x8s joined together make a board deep enough to cut the boxes from. And there is always plywood which is what the commercial Modified Dadants available in Great Britain are made out of. :lookout:


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

odfrank said:


> Another Rogue using Jumbo frames? Don't you know the new age beekeeper uses all mediums in eight frame hives? My new trick is using 30+ year old treatment free foundations stacked, one 5 1/4" and one a bit taller instead of ordering new polluted foundation.


I think Charles Dadant was just ahead of the curve. With the additional depth and wider width I expect the Dadant hives to winter better than the Langs. The extra width adds more insulation to the cluster and the depth gives them more time before they have to move up. 

I haven't ever really understood the less weight argument... I get excited when I try and lift a heavy box. Being a beekeeper who is opposed to heavy boxes is like being a chef who doesn't like the heat of a kitchen... it just doesn't work that way.


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## dnichols (May 28, 2012)

I agree I think we get too stagnant in our beekeeping. Why not try new things and new (old) things and experiment? There is no innovation any more. Then the worst part is when a beekeeper posts something new and inventive or out of the box he/she gets barrated. Not on this thread, so far, but you know what I mean. Group hug now. :-D


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The extra width adds more insulation to the cluster and the depth gives them more time before they have to move up. 

I think they winter worse at wider spacing as they can't warm brood without a lot more bees.

" it will certainly require more bees to fill and keep warm a 5/8 than a 1/2 inch space. In a 1/2" inch space, the breeding bees from two combs facing each other will join with their backs, and so close up the space between the two brood combs. If this space is widened to 5/8 the bees cannot do this, and more bees will be required to keep up the needed brood- rearing temperature. What a drawback this would be in a cool spring, when our colonies are still weak in numbers, yet breeding most desirable, can readily be understood."--Julius Hoffman 

" Mr.Woodbury,--whose authority on the modern plans for keeping bees is of great weight,--finds the 7/8 of an inch bar an improvement, because with them the combs are closer together, and require fewer bees to cover the brood. "-- Alfred Neighbour, The Apiary, or, Bees, Bee Hives, and Bee Culture...


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

The wider box doesn't change the space between the combs because they are 11 frame boxes. The insulation factor I am referring to is that of the extra frame between the side of the box and the cluster.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Sorry, I thought you were referring to C.P. Dadant's penchant for 1 1/2" frame spacing.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Bluegrass,

I have always been intrigued by the Dadant hive/frame. Do you know if they will fit in an extractor? I suppose they might fit some radial extractors?

I may have missed it, do you put foundation in them or go foundationless?

I may build some and start some nucs with them. They may be just enough extra space to help them overwinter in.

Tom


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

As for width I read an article in a beekeeping magazine stating 8 frame hives wintered better than 10 frame.
I do believe the extra depth would help though. You could make 8 frame Dadant deep boxes.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

TWall said:


> Bluegrass,
> 
> Do you know if they will fit in an extractor? I suppose they might fit some radial extractors?
> 
> ...


The frames fit in imported extractors (the Chinese ones everybody sells now days) The imports are actually universal extractors and are built to meet the needs of multiple countries that use other hives.

I don't know if they fit in the newer American made stuff like Maxant. But they fit in most extractors that are over 20-30 years old. 

I am going to use these without foundation.


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## dnichols (May 28, 2012)

KQ6AR said:


> As for width I read an article in a beekeeping magazine stating 8 frame hives wintered better than 10 frame.
> I do believe the extra depth would help though. You could make 8 frame Dadant deep boxes.


I would like to know the science behind why a colony would winter better in a 8 frame. Maybe it's similar to the success of over wintered nucs. Colony size dependent? Anybody?


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

I make my Jumbos from two deeps. Cut one deep to a shallow, glue and screw cut section to the other deep.

eight frame Jumbo brood chambers









ten frame Jumbo brood chamber









custom Jumbo frames


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Fancy hive stand, did you build it specifically for a have stand or is it repurposed?

I notice your side bars are not self spacing. What do you use for a spacer?


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

I am trying these fly tying beads for spacing. C.C. Miller, Eugene Killion and Brother Adam used a hob nail for spacing.


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

Custom frame; 1.125" wide, .875 thick top bar and .500 thick end and bottom bar.










Purchased Jumbo frame, thin end bars (5/16"). The end bars draw inward when wire (mono fishing line) is installed.


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

The stand is purpose built for 8 frame and 10 frame hives... Picture of an 8 frame Jumbo brood chamber and nuclei.


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

I use Rite-Cell for them to start drawing straight comb, then install foundationless frames between drawn Rite-Cell.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I would like to know the science behind why a colony would winter better in a 8 frame. Maybe it's similar to the success of over wintered nucs. Colony size dependent? Anybody? 

They seem to winter better when the size of the cavity they are in matches the diameter of the cluster. They also don't leave food behind them so much when they are in a smaller width box.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

These are the seven shimmed up Jumbos I made this winter. Redwood siding off a house with white paint turned inside and redwood stain. Ooopps, picture only show five.


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

odfrank said:


> These are the seven shimmed up Jumbos I made this winter. Redwood siding off a house with white paint turned inside and redwood stain. Ooopps, picture only show five.
> 
> Odfrank,
> 
> ...


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

rail said:


> odfrank;914684 How many different size Jumbo chambers are you using?
> Too many. 50+ ten frame single and double deeps said:
> 
> 
> > The last few years they have mostly died during the winter. Because of our winter eucalyptus flow, I purge honey from brood chambers fall and winter. Before mites, I used to leave a super during winter.


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

odfrank said:


> rail said:
> 
> 
> > The last few years they have mostly died during the winter. Because of our winter eucalyptus flow, I purge honey from brood chambers fall and winter. Before mites, I used to leave a super during winter.
> ...


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> I think Charles Dadant was just ahead of the curve. With the additional depth and wider width I expect the Dadant hives to winter better than the Langs. The extra width adds more insulation to the cluster and the depth gives them more time before they have to move up.
> 
> I haven't ever really understood the less weight argument... I get excited when I try and lift a heavy box. Being a beekeeper who is opposed to heavy boxes is like being a chef who doesn't like the heat of a kitchen... it just doesn't work that way.


Are you using Dadant's hive dimensions (width) or Lang?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

rail said:


> Are you using Dadant's hive dimensions (width) or Lang?


I am using Dadant width, 11 frames. Brother Adam tried many hives and than modified the Dadant to hold 12 frames and that became his standard. He wrote quite a bit about his success with it.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

rail said:


> odfrank said:
> 
> 
> > I would assume the 10 frame Jumbos perform better than the 12 frame?
> ...


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> I am using Dadant width, 11 frames. Brother Adam tried many hives and than modified the Dadant to hold 12 frames and that became his standard. He wrote quite a bit about his success with it.


Are you using Dadant's & Quinby's 1 1/2" spacing?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

rail said:


> Are you using Dadant's & Quinby's 1 1/2" spacing?


No. Sticking with 1 3/8 frames.


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## rail (Apr 1, 2011)

Bluegrass,

How are the Jumbo hives progressing?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

rail said:


> Bluegrass,
> 
> How are the Jumbo hives progressing?


I only started one with a package last season. It is alive and well to this point. I have 20 more hives I am getting ready to go for this season.


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## grumpybeeman (Jan 10, 2014)

bluegrass said:


> I only started one with a package last season. It is alive and well to this point. I have 20 more hives I am getting ready to go for this season.


Have you done a cost analysis on 2 or 3 jumbos compared to 1 9-5/8", and multiple supers? To me it makes sense not having as much equipment to haul around. I run all deeps, and personally don't like having to use multiple boxes.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

odfrank said:


> These are the seven shimmed up Jumbos I made this winter. Redwood siding off a house with white paint turned inside and redwood stain. Ooopps, picture only show five.


 Removing siding to build bee hive's, odfrank when you say I lost my house because of my bees, you mean it.:lpf:


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

odfrank said:


> Don't you know the new age beekeeper uses all mediums in eight frame hives?


That is because we give a ribbon to our kids just for showing up. We are creating a bunch of weenies. Keep using the jumbo frames and show them.

Dadant did a lot of research. Does the new introduction of the Mites change his results? He had lots of success would those still be true with the new age of the diseases we have to deal with?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

grumpybeeman said:


> Have you done a cost analysis on 2 or 3 jumbos compared to 1 9-5/8", and multiple supers? To me it makes sense not having as much equipment to haul around. I run all deeps, and personally don't like having to use multiple boxes.


I have but didn't write the figures down and keep them, so off of the top of my head I don't remember. It is cheaper to build a dadant size box and frames then it is to purchase a lang. the dadant is 30% larger in volume, so you can basically say you need 30% less equipment to produce the same amount of honey. You can purchase standard top and bottom bars and just make the side bars which save time. All you need to make the side bars is a table saw with dado, a jointer/planer and a bandsaw. The bandsaw can be eliminated and just the table saw used, but it wastes more material.


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