# Survival of Fittest & Beetles



## hrogers (Dec 16, 2000)

Howdy All --

There seems to be a fairly common idea concerning mites to leave untreated and propogate from survivors (if any). Sounds 
effective, if you can afford it.

Those of you who have beetles: Do you use 
this approach? Those of you who do not have beetles but will soon (you will), do you plan
on using this same tactic?
Doc


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Those of you who do not have beetles but will soon (you will), do you plan on using this same tactic?

That was always my tactic for everything until all the bees died from Varroa several times.









Yes, I will plan on the same tactic, but may have to adjust here and there. Maybe we can do things to discourage the beetles or give an advantage to the bees. Like eliminating all the cracks and crevices they hide in. Or somehow keeping them from getting to the ground to pupate.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Don't think the analogy applies well. Mites are equal opportunity destroyers. Non-resistant large strong hives are nearly as susceptible as weak ones. In contrast, (at least in my experience) beetles only get the upper hand when hives are weak (splits, packages, mating nucs, etc.) Sure, some bees handle beetles better than others, but a strong hives can almost always hold its own against beetles. So, instead of genetics coming to our rescue, its mostly a management issue - something the beekeepers can control. This is based upon our wimpy Virginia beetles, perhaps those Texas beetles are more of a problem.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

howdy doc...

are you having problems with the small hive beetle? of course astro bee is quite correct in suggesting that the small hive beetle is just a bit bigger here in Texas. I think he is also correct in suggesting that in regards to the small hive beetle the bee keeper will need to adjust rather than the bee.


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## hrogers (Dec 16, 2000)

Howdy Tecumseh --

Yes I was hard hit by beetles in '06. The adults moved in from somewhere and killed off about 1/3 of my hives. I've learned much more about beetles than I ever wanted to know. This season should tell the tale as to whether my approach is wosrking.

The biggest thing is that if we wait for the government to save our bees, we're outa luck!

Doc


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## thomas (Apr 23, 2006)

Amen the government need to have a program for beeks like they do for everything else that deals with agriculture.Our business is known as apiculture why is it we can't get funding if we loose a large amonut of our bees it's no different then losing cows or chickens for some of us this is our life and jobs so why is the government not helping us if it won't for the bees there would be no crops to pollenate.

Tom


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## markalbob (Jan 31, 2007)

In reply to Michael's post about the beetles pupating in the ground, maybe I'm being naive but there are tons of soil insecticides, from regular lawn-care ones to commercial for corn borers, etc......

Wouldn't it make sense then to just spread under the hive and out say in a 5-foot radius so the beetles that burrow in die? Bees don't spend much time digging, so they'd be safe, and so would ants and things so long as they came from colonies say 10 feet away......


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Hey, guys, I don't want to be harsh here, but when was the last time you advocated government spending on something that didn't directly impact you? The government funding for research on agricultural issues is being cut left and right -- for ALL agricultural research, with the possible exception of research on ethanol production. Do [you] make it known that you want funding for research on dairy issues or insect pest issues on crops or weed management or similar topics to continue at current levels, adjusted for inflation? If not, why should others worry about the tiny numbers of beekeepers?

The other aspect is that we (as beekeepers, and most Americans act the same way) aren't asking for government involvement when the times are good, but as soon as times get tough, we start looking for help from the government.

Back to the main point of the thread: we don't have small hive beetles here, yet, but expect them this summer. My plan -- like others have suggested -- is to manage my hives so hopefully none of them will be too weak to handle the beetles on their own (I tend to view SHB somewhat like I do wax moths; that may change after I have some first-hand experience with SHB). Otherwise, I may try a couple other management techniques.

As far as I know, the beetles do not feed on bees directly, so genetic "resistance" to SHB in honey bees may be more difficult to develop than "resistance" to parasites. Simplest solution, from the bee's point of view in my opinion, might be to abscond -- just leave and start fresh somewhere else. Not so good for beekeepers, if that happens.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Wouldn't it make sense then to just spread under the hive and out say in a 5-foot radius so the beetles that burrow in die? 

That's why Mann Lake sells Guard Star.

>if we wait for the government to save our bees, we're outa luck!

>Hey, guys, I don't want to be harsh here, but when was the last time you advocated government spending on something that didn't directly impact you?

I didn't get the impression he was advocating that at all.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

"I didn't get the impression he was advocating that at all." -Michael Bush

OK, maybe I read too much into that statement (and the statements following it).

Why not state, ". . . if we wait for corporations (or big banks, or fill in the blank) to save our bees, we're outa luck," instead?

Again, I say, we don't look for government involvement when times are good, but run to the government when something threatens us.

Along a different line, GardStar contains permethrin as its active ingredient. The label on permethrin typically reads (like many insecticides): "This product is highly toxic to bees exposed to direct treatment of residues on blooming crops or weeds. Do not apply this product or allow it to drift to blooming crops if bees are visiting the treatment area."


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## Panhandle Bee man (Oct 22, 2003)

>Wouldn't it make sense then to just spread under the hive and out say in a 5-foot radius so the beetles that burrow in die? 

You need over a 100 yard radius, and it needs to be done frequently. Dr Jamie Ellis of U of FL is looking at nematodes, the worms wont have an effect on the bees.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

"You need over a 100 yard radius. . . ." -Pandhandle Bee man

Do you mean that SHB larvae will crawl more than 300 feet before pupating? "Can crawl 100 yards," or "regularly crawl more than 100 yards?"

Why would they crawl over what, in their eyes, is perfectly suitable soil for pupating? After all, they don't "know" that the soil is laced with permethrin.


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## Panhandle Bee man (Oct 22, 2003)

When David Westervelt did the studies on shb, he tracked the larva traveling out beyond 100 yards. Not all larva a certain percentage burrowed at 1 ft, more at 1 yard, etc.. I would guess that it is a survival mechanism in shb, so that not all larva are trying to pupate in the same area, that way predators do not find the motherload and completely eradicate the shb. Survival of the fittest.


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## albee (Nov 16, 2006)

mostly a management issue
I got SHB last year. They love plastic frames and inner covers. This year i'm going to change all of my hives. No racks, inner covers, sbb, plastic frames, and frame rest or spacers. I might have to give up frame feeders. I live in an area of good grey clay earth and we have a good winter so I hope that with some management they shouldn't be much of a problem.


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## Panhandle Bee man (Oct 22, 2003)

Try a West Beetle trap on a weak hive. The adults are attracted to the weak hive and can be drowned in the oil.


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## hrogers (Dec 16, 2000)

Howdy All --

Sometimes my tongue-in-cheek winds up 
foot-in-mouth, so I should elaborate. I did not suggest any type of handout from the govt. Just approving effective treatments which have been approved in about all countries except the US: such as Oxalic for mites.

My experience has been that beetle larvae do not show up unil the colony is a goner. Soil drench was of no help to me because the adult beetles which moved in destroyed the colonies before there were any larvae. My opinion is that the beetle adults must be destroyed quickly after the invasion.

When a large invasion happens, Checkmite is too slow to help much.

Doc


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## albee (Nov 16, 2006)

Pan What do you put in your traps? 
How often do you have to clean them? 
If you use oil what type?
I think someone was using something other than oil but I don't remember what it was.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I personally have watched a beetle larvae crawl over 100 feet. You can't stop them with soil drenches.

What does seem to be partially effective is a flat sheet like a board with a rim all the way around, kind of a tray. The beetle larvae drop from the hive into the tray and can't crawl out and can't pupate.

Darrel Jones


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>GardStar contains permethrin as its active ingredient.

Which is why I wouldn't use it...


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I've used GardStar and did not really notice a big change in beetle population. Once I moved my hives out into the direct sun I noticed a big change. Removed the inner covers (only in peak nectar season) and propped tops seemed to help too.


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## bbbbeeman (Jan 13, 2007)

I stopped useing chem,and pest, seven years ago.all i use is fgmo to help deslodge the mites they fall throuth a closed bottom screen into veg oil pan. I had 56 hives in the fall today I had 52 not bad for winter die off,


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## bbbbeeman (Jan 13, 2007)

oh yes beetles and thier larve also are killed in the oil.also wax mouth larve and an ant ever now and then.


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## Jonathan Hofer (Aug 10, 2005)

Hello albee, 
I am wondering if you have any theories or hypothesis as to why the shb prefers plastic frames. Are you talking about the plastic foundation as well?

JH


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## Panhandle Bee man (Oct 22, 2003)

I use cheap veg oil. I change it every 3-4 weeks. Some people use hydrate lime, but once it gets wet it has to be replaced.

It not that the shb prefer plastic frames, but the plastic frames are made with slots/openings and places that only shb can crawl into, and the bees can't corral the shb.

[ February 13, 2007, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: Panhandle Bee man ]


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

hrogers sezs:
Sometimes my tongue-in-cheek winds up 
foot-in-mouth

tecumseh replies:
now there is a malady that I am familar with....

back to your problem. I understand via a conversation with a 'scientist' type at the abf (he was with the lab in gainesville) that he has developed a 'lure' for the small hive beetle. the converstation was not that long, but it did sound a lot like bread yeast.... he stated that he used pollen patties for the medium.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I haven't had to deal with them, but from listening to others, I'm thinking we may need to redesign bee equipment in the future and try to eliminate all the nooks and crannies that the SHB hide in.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm still hung-up on the idea that SHB larvae will crawl such great distances before pupating.

"When David Westervelt did the studies on shb, he tracked the larva traveling out beyond 100 yards." -Pandhandle Bee man

Do you have the citation for this? I've searched for studies like this by David Westervelt, and I haven't come up with any that seem to include this information.

"I personally have watched a beetle larvae crawl over 100 feet." -Fusion_power

That takes concentration, persistence, and a great deal of time! What were the circumstances? Was the larva (singular; "larvae" is plural) hindered in some way, such as "wrong" soil type?

"What does seem to be partially effective is a flat sheet like a board with a rim all the way around, kind of a tray. The beetle larvae drop from the hive into the tray and can't crawl out and can't pupate." -Fusion_power

Around here, that same mechanism would prevent any larvae from traveling such a great distance to pupate. All of my hives are located in situations where any crawling SHB larva would encounter an obstacle long before 100 feet -- long before three feet, for that matter. Grass and other vegetation would make travel difficult for the larvae, and would make observation of that travel difficult for me.  

From what I've read about SHB, Africanized bees seem to tolerate SHB quite well, although high populations of SHB seem to incite bee colonies to swarm and/or abscond.


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## albee (Nov 16, 2006)

Hey Jonethan
I havent had a big problem with shb but the only hive that I saw them in had plastic frames. The bees would go after one and it would duck into the slot in the end bar. I'm going to buy 2 traps and give them a try.
Thanks pan.
MB I haven't had to deal with them
I think that your bees might be dealing with them on there own. If Main has shb I would think that they would be in your area.


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## Janice Lane (Feb 5, 2006)

I have also noticed more beetles hanging out in the honey super cell plastic frames. I also think it is because the bees can't get to them as well. However, it's a lot easier for me to squish them with a twig in the plastic frames.


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## snarky (Oct 6, 2006)

I have had good success catching the beetles and larva using a west trap under a SBB; get mites, too; I just put in the first of my plastic frames so we'll see if they find their way to the frames or the screen first


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