# 3/8" crown better than 1/4" for frames?



## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

I use a brad nailer that shoots a single brad. That way I can use it for other projects. I don't need a staple often. I can get the brads in different lengths for different applications. That and Titebond II. I like shooting the brads from the sides, using an upward angle through the side bars into the top bar. That way the brad helps with the side bar not slipping down from the top bar. Each his own.


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## Wisnewbee (Apr 8, 2011)

I use a 1/4" crown stapler for all my frame work. It works great. I believe a staple holds much better than a brad. I use 2 staples on the top at each end of the top bar, and 1 staple on the side of each top bar. 1 staple for each side of the bottom bar. I use 1 1/2" staples for all this work. I also use titebond 3 glue on all joints.


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## acbz (Sep 8, 2009)

If you're using a high quality glue, the bond should theoretically be stronger than the actual wood. So the staple would just serve as the 'clamp' that keeps the pieces tight while the glue dries. In the absence of glue and side staples, a 3/8" crown is better than a narrow crown. If you're using narrow crown, why not just shoot in the extra two more staples per frame from the side bars into the top bar? It's worth the time.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

jrbbees said:


> I use a brad nailer that shoots a single brad. I like shooting the brads from the sides, using an upward angle through the side bars into the top bar. That way the brad helps with the side bar not slipping down from the top bar. Each his own.


Thanks jrbees. The heads on the brads are pretty small, so I prefer the staples for that reason.

-fafrd


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Wisnewbee said:


> I use a 1/4" crown stapler for all my frame work. It works great. I believe a staple holds much better than a brad. I use 2 staples on the top at each end of the top bar, and 1 staple on the side of each top bar. 1 staple for each side of the bottom bar. I use 1 1/2" staples for all this work. I also use titebond 3 glue on all joints.


Thanks Wisnewbee - this is pretty close to what I am planning on doing. I assume that the staples on the bottom bar are pointed up into the side bar and straddling the groove in the bottom-bar, correct? So you have no problem with splitting the thin wood near the groove (a 3/8" crown staple would give you an extra 1/16th" per side)?

Also, you write 2 staples for each side of the top bar... Are one or both of these staples pointed down into the side bar and straddling the groove? Same question as above on splitting. And how do you shoot the second staple - from the side bar into the top bar from the ends, from the side, or what?

-fafrd


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

acbz said:


> If you're using a high quality glue, the bond should theoretically be stronger than the actual wood. So the staple would just serve as the 'clamp' that keeps the pieces tight while the glue dries. In the absence of glue and side staples, a 3/8" crown is better than a narrow crown. If you're using narrow crown, why not just shoot in the extra two more staples per frame from the side bars into the top bar? It's worth the time.


thanks acbz. I glue all of my frames with titebond. Why do you say that in the absence of glue a 3/8" crown is better than a 1/4" crown? I'd worry about splitting the thin fingers on the side bar stapling through them, especially since I thin many of my frames down to 1-1/4". On the other hand, I have experienced the top-bar of a Mann-Lake frame pull right up off of the side bar, glue, staple, and all (the frame was completely stuck to the side of the box with comb), so I may think about shooting one of those staples from the wide end of the side-bar across into the top-bar.

Coming back to my above comment to jrbbees, it seems like for side-nailing, brads would be better than staples as there is no possibility of the fastener being 'pulled out'.

-fafrd


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## ekervina (May 18, 2009)

I use 1/4" crown staples and Titebond II. One staple per side on the top bar, one staple per side on the bottom bar. I'm using grooved bottom bars, only had one split. I also shoot a brad through the side of each sidebar into the top bar.

Being fairly new to beekeeping I've only assembled about 120 frames. I've had three frames end up unusable. One split bottom bar (mentioned above) and two side bars that split along the grain. No problems with any of the bars coming apart under use... But like I said, only one year so far.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

ekervina, thanks - this is exactly the kind of experience and input I was looking for.

At 'only 120 frames' don't worry we're in the same leager (I have 10 hives).

Split bottom should be a bit more difficult for a stapler than grooved, so if you've had only one split, I'd say that gives me confidence splitting should not be too much of a problem stapling 1/4" crown staples into grooved bottom bars.

And on the tops, can I assume that your single staple is straddling the groove? And that since you have not mentioned any splitting on the top bars that your experience stapling 1/4" crown staples around a standard grooved top bar has been pretty positive?

As far as the additional brad that you shoot through the side bar into the top bar, is this shot from the end (long side of the side bar) into the grain of the top bar or from the side (through the tab on the end bar) across the width of the top bar?

Whatever the position of your brad, is there a reason that you did not use an additional staple for that reinforcement? (I don't have a brad nailer and want to understand if one is really needed if I have a 1/4" crown stapler)

thanks again for this helpful information...

-fafrd


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## ekervina (May 18, 2009)

fafrd said:


> Split bottom should be a bit more difficult for a stapler than grooved, so if you've had only one split,


Not sure if what I was trying to say came out right. I have grooved bottom bars, one of them cracked along about half the length, about a quarter of the bottom bar came away, so it wasn't worth salvaging. But other than that one, I have not had any bottom bars split and be ruined.



> And on the tops, can I assume that your single staple is straddling the groove? And that since you have not mentioned any splitting on the top bars that your experience stapling 1/4" crown staples around a standard grooved top bar has been pretty positive?


I'm using wedge tops, not grooved tops. No problems with them at all.



> As far as the additional brad that you shoot through the side bar into the top bar, is this shot from the end (long side of the side bar) into the grain of the top bar or from the side (through the tab on the end bar) across the width of the top bar?


Let's see if I can save a thousand words... 

Take a look at http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5711538648/in/photostream

Sorry the photo is a bit washed out, you should be able to see the brad, though. On the left is a view from the end of a wedge top bar with the wedge removed. The brad goes into that raised portion. On the right, a finished frame from the same perspective. I don't use a staple because I am more confident of hitting the relatively small target with a brad. I put one in each end. It is probably overkill, but it gives me confidence that no matter how firmly our girls try to glue the frame down, I won't pry out a top bar and leave the rest of the frame behind.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

I use a 1/4 crown and although I have not used 3/8 just based on some problems I have with the 1/4 tells me that 1/4 are the preferred option in my opinion especially if you use the side staple.


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## acbz (Sep 8, 2009)

fafrd said:


> Why do you say that in the absence of glue a 3/8" crown is better than a 1/4" crown?


A 3/8" crown will be easier to straddle the groove in the middle of the bottom bar, as you pointed out. I used all narrow crown on my frames (6 staples per frame). Sometimes the bottom bar would split when the staple countersinks deep into the wood and splits it at the groove. I believe a 3/8" crown staple would be harder to pull out due to its larger wire diameter, but that's a guess. 



fafrd said:


> I'd worry about splitting the thin fingers on the side bar stapling through them, especially since I thin many of my frames down to 1-1/4".


I've built several thousand frames without glue, and the only ones to come apart so far are the few where I forgot to shoot the staples in from the ends of the frame. As for the 2 staples from the side, I think you misunderstood the location. An additional staple should be shot in from each end of the frame. The staple will enter the end bar, just beneath the "ear" of the top bar, angled slightly upward so as to go through the end bar and into the top bar. This locks the top bar and the end bar together. The staple does not go into the thin finger of the end bar. It goes into the wide face of the end bar. Does that make sense?


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Use the 3/8" gun if you have a choice. No gluing necessary with them. Yes, they do straddle the bottom grooves much better than the 1/4" staples, that's why Mann Lake and other suppliers use them. The other advantage is that the 3/8" staples are perfect for stapling boxes together. We use 3/8 x 1 1/2" staples for everything. Make sure to get resin coated staples; acts like glue, heats up by friction during penetration then sets up.


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## Wisnewbee (Apr 8, 2011)

fafrd, You asked about how I stapled the top bar. Two staples shot vertically down through the top bar into the side bars. 2 on each side. 1 staple shot trough the side bar into the top bar horizontally. 1 staple shot vetically through the botton bar into the side bar. All staple shots are at a 90 degree. I use only titebond 3. Titebond 3 is waterproof, as the glue on my pants will prove. Titebond 2 is only water resistant. Lots of humidity inside a hive at times. I'll stick with titebond 3.

Do a search for a frame jig. The is also a set of plans on Michael Bush's site. Load up 10 frames in the jig. Stack em, glue em, assemble em, staple em. Done. 10 frames in a few minutes. It takes me more time to apply glue than any other part on the assembly. I'm picky about complete glue contact. The glue is stronger then the wood. Staples are just the clamping force until the glue fully cures. That's about 24 hours for Titebond 3. Check your frames for being square before the glue sets. Adjust as needed. Hang to cure. If you are going to be wiring your frames, allow 24 hours for the glue to cure before wiring. 

The 1/4" stapler is about half the cost of a 3/8" stapler. 1/4" work great, costs me less. Enough said.
Hope this helps. 

Bill


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## acbz (Sep 8, 2009)

Wisnewbee said:


> It takes me more time to apply glue than any other part on the assembly. I'm picky about complete glue contact.
> Bill


I saw a really helpful tip posted by Jim Lyon regarding the gluing. He recommended grabbing a handful of endbars and applying the glue to all of the ends at once, before inserting them into the jig. Seems like this would save a lot of time, but I haven't tried it.


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## Wisnewbee (Apr 8, 2011)

I prefer to apply the glue after the side bars are in the jig. 20 drops of glue into the tops of the side bars. I then use what some people call a grease or acid brush to coat all contact surfaces with the glue. I also apply glue to the top bar surfaces the same way. That's what takes me so long. Long is a relative term. It's usually just a couple minutes. I flip the jig and repeat for the bottom bar. I try and apply a thin coat of glue to all surfaces to ensure good glue contact. I wipe off any excess glue as I complete a step. Since the glue joint is stronger then the wood, I'm looking to achieve even glue application and strength. I'm positive you don't have to go that far, but I'm just picky about it.

Bill


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

ekervina said:


> On the left is a view from the end of a wedge top bar with the wedge removed. The brad goes into that raised portion. On the right, a finished frame from the same perspective. I don't use a staple because I am more confident of hitting the relatively small target with a brad. I put one in each end. It is probably overkill, but it gives me confidence that no matter how firmly our girls try to glue the frame down, I won't pry out a top bar and leave the rest of the frame behind.


ekervina,

thanks for the explanation. No I understand where you place the brad - into the thicker half of the topbar. I'm not using wedge so there is no 'thicker side' and in fact, it looks like it would be very difficult to get a brad or a staple in there.

I have some old Mann-Lake stapled frames (with the 3/8" bottom bar and 3/4" top bar) and they had a 3/8" staple in from the top as well as a 1/4" staple in from the side like you do which was possible because the top bars were 3/16" thicker with that design. I am not sure if those older designs were also glued or not.

I also have their newer design (with the 1/2" bottom bar and 9/16" top bar) and those have only a 3/8" staple from the top and no side staple. Because the top bar is thinner, it looks like it would be pretty much impossible to get a brad or a staple into it from the side through the side bar. These newer frames are definitely glued.

I'm probably going to try the newer Mann-Lake approach with 1/4" crown staples instead of 3/8". It looks like the staples are going to be just wide enough to straddle the groove, but as long as they don't bend on the way down, it shouldn't matter anyway.

The fact that you have been able to successfully staple 1/4" crown staples straddling the groove has been very helpful information - thanks again.

-fafrd


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

acbz said:


> A 3/8" crown will be easier to straddle the groove in the middle of the bottom bar, as you pointed out. Sometimes the bottom bar would split when the staple countersinks deep into the wood and splits it at the groove. /QUOTE]
> 
> acbz,
> 
> ...


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

fish_stix said:


> Use the 3/8" gun if you have a choice. No gluing necessary with them. Yes, they do straddle the bottom grooves much better than the 1/4" staples, that's why Mann Lake and other suppliers use them.


fish-stix,

thanks for the advice. Do you think a 3/8" stapler is worth more than twice the price of a 1/4" crown staple ($200+ versus $100-)? 



fish_stix said:


> The other advantage is that the 3/8" staples are perfect for stapling boxes together. We use 3/8 x 1 1/2" staples for everything.


I have a nailer for all of the tabs on a box except the top thin tab, where I am worried that a nail may lead to splitting and think staples may be a better fastener (as Mann-Lake does with their pre-assembled boxes). For that thin tab at the top a 3/8" crown staple looks pretty attractive, but I am wondering if two 1/4" crown staples might not work just as well - thoughts?

-fafrd


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I use 3/8" staple for the topbar, and 1 1/2" brads for the bottom and side bar, with glue. Too much splitting with 3/8" on the grooved bottom bars. Even reducing the pressure does not help for me.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

Wisnewbee said:


> fafrd, You asked about how I stapled the top bar. Two staples shot vertically down through the top bar into the side bars. 2 on each side.


Bill, thanks for the extra detail, but I am still confused about the staples shot vertically down through the top bar into the end bar. Two staples shot vertically down through the top bar into the side bars on each end (4 total) or one staple staple shot vertically down through the top bar into the side bars on each end (2 total)? If it is one per side, I understand. If it is two vertical staples per side I would appreciate it if you could explain where they are placed and why you staple in that way.



Wisnewbee said:


> The 1/4" stapler is about half the cost of a 3/8" stapler. 1/4" work great, costs me less. Enough said.
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Bill


That's why I have asked the question and thanks for your input. I take this to mean that you have not had any problem splitting grooved bottom bars when using 1/4" crown staples, right?

-fafrd


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

odfrank said:


> I use 3/8" staple for the topbar, and 1 1/2" brads for the bottom and side bar, with glue. Too much splitting with 3/8" on the grooved bottom bars. Even reducing the pressure does not help for me.


Oliver, ever tried a 1/4" crown staple? Do you think the narrower crown would lead to reduced splitting of the bottom bar? Can I ask what model of 3/8" stapler you use? If I get a new 1/4" crown stapler, maybe you and I should get together to build some frames and make a head-to-head comparison

Which make of frames do you use? I am using Mann-Lake which has a 9/16" top bar that makes it pretty much impossible to drive anything through the side bar into the top bar...


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## johns bees (Jan 25, 2009)

I use 1/4 inch finish stapler for my frames along with glue have never had a problem It works just fine 
oh by the way my stapler is made by rigid you can get one at home depot for around 70 dollars


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## acbz (Sep 8, 2009)

It's possible to straddle the bottom groove with a 1/4" staple if you take your time. It's also possible to bias the staple to one side of the groove so that one leg of the staple goes directly through the groove. The splitting depends on countersink and the particular piece of wood...some are softer than others, grain, etc. If it splits, just shoot another staple in or pull it apart and glue it. No biggie. Most don't split. I prefer the narrow crown for frames because the gun is smaller and less fatiguing if doing large batches of frames. I guess ideally I'd go with 3/8" and glue, but you really can't go wrong with either method.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I bought a Stanley Bostich that shoots both brads and 3/8 crown staples up to 1 1/2 long. It cost $114. Remember to staple horizontally thru the side of the frame into the top bar. If the head of the staple sticks out a little it doesn't bother anything. It may because it is hard to get your stapler where it needs to be to sink it all the way. The side shots keep the frame from pulling apart when the bottom of the frame is really joined firmly to the frame in the box below. Not fun putting them back together when covered with bees! It will happen especially if you don't glue your frames. I don't! Back when i nailed frames and didn't know any better it happened a lot.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

fafrd said:


> Oliver, ever tried a 1/4" crown staple?
> 35 years ago
> Can I ask what model of 3/8" stapler you use?
> a 35 year old geman one, i think
> ...


You have to staple on an angle.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

fafrd said:


> fish-stix,
> 
> thanks for the advice. Do you think a 3/8" stapler is worth more than twice the price of a 1/4" crown staple ($200+ versus $100-)?
> 
> ...


To me the price is well worth it. We assemble thousands of frames and the 3/8" staples work the best. We have used the 1/4" staples too and I find nothing wrong with them, in fact when we get several people on frames a couple of them use the 1/4" guns because we only have one 3/8" gun currently. When using 1/4" staples we don't use the staples into the top bar from the ends, just 2 at each end on the top and one at each end on the bottom bar. With the 3/8" staples we use 4 total for a frame. The 1/4" staples do split the bottom bars much more than the 3/8". As for boxes, there is no comparison with staples versus nails, the staples win every time and hold better.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

fish-stix,

can you explain where you locate the two 1/4" staples down into the end-bar through each end of the top-bar?

As for boxes, why do you think staples are better than nails for the thick tabs? Among other things, I would think that staples are more prone to rust than a galvanized nail would be.

For the thin tab at the top of a box, I agree with you that staples would be better than nails because of the high riask of a nail splitting the wood (or the heat of the sun splitting the wood around the nail), but I am interested in your thoughts as to whether two 1/4" crown staples in the thin tab would be as effective as a single 3/8" crown staple...

thanks for the inputs,

-fafrd


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

The two 1/4" staples go into the top bar on each side of the groove. If using glue just use one. I'm a General Contractor, have used the 7/16" or 1/2" crown staples for many (30+) years stapling plywood sub-siding and roof decking. You cannot remove the plywood without destroying it due to the holding power of the staples. Same for bee boxes. Staple one together and try to pull it apart, you'll destroy the box! The staples we use are galvanized with a resin coating (Sencote). They don't rust for a long time especially with a couple coats of paint on them; not a worry! If you put two 1/4" staples in that 3/8" ear on the boxes most will split. Use glue on that ear with one staple. Here's my take on the subject; if you plan on building tons of frames and boxes get the gun that the pros use; if you plan to stay a hobbyist use the 1/4" x 1 1/2" long staples and glue everything; it will work fine for you.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

fish-stix,

I really appreciate your inputs on this. I am not building a ton of frames and while I'm probably a bit beyond the average hobbiest at this stage (10 hives in the back yard, breeding and selling queens and nucs on a small scale to the local hobbiest community), I think you are right that a 1/4" crown stapler (with glue) will probably work fine for me for now. Thanks again for the advice.

And now that I understand that you place a single 1/4" crown staple on either side of the groove (one either end of the top bar - 4 staples total down through the topbar), I suppose that is one advantage of 1/4" crown versus 3/8" crown - 1/4" is small enough that you can squeeze one of them in on either side of the groove. When you do this, do you orient the 1/4" staple crown perpendicular to the wood grain of the top-bar or at a 45 degree angle?

On the bee boxes, I have a framing nailer already and think I prefer galvanized nails to staples, both because the nails are more rust-proof and there is already the hole that has been drilled into the ears that needs filling. I do not want to glue all of the ears on my boxes anymore as it takes too long and is a mess (though I do intend to continue to glue the joint at the 3/8" wide ear as you suggest as that should be pretty easy). I didn't know that you could purchase galvanized resin-coated staples, and those will obviously partially address the rusting issue, but I still think galvanized nails are going to last longer than galvanized staples (more metal and bigger head).

If you can squeeze a 1/4" crown staple onto either side of the groove of an end-bar, I would think you could squeeze two 1/4" crown staples into the 5/8" x 3/4" thin ear on a box. Have you tried getting two in there and seen splitting? If so, I would appreciate understanding where you placed the two staples. And where did you see splitting - of the 3/8" thick ear? I think I am going to try placeing a single 1/4" staple in the upper inside corner and another in the lower outside corner, each staple at a 45 degree angle from lower inside to upper outside. Will report back on how it works (unless you have something to tell me that convinces me I am going to waste a nice new box )

So in summary, I have decided to pretty much follow your advice except I am going to use galvanized nails for the thick tabs on the boxes and skip the glue, and I am going to go ahead and try to get two 1/4" staples into the thin ears without splitting. My new Porter-Cable 1/4" crown stapler has already been ordered and I can't wait to see how it performs

-fafrd

p.s. will probably use two 1/4" crown staples going down through the top-bar as you do and would appreciate understanding where you position them - if there is any way you could post a picture that would be great:applause:


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## guyross (Feb 18, 2011)

thats the location I put a 1-3/8 1/4" staple.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

fafrd; we orient the staples perpendicular to the run of the top bar, one on each side. Unless my son is in a gluing mood and then we just use one staple in the center of the top bar, also perpendicular to the top bar. You're getting too nitpicky about this stuff! Staple them and move on to something more interesting! You don't have to take my word on the staples for boxes; just look at some pics of commercial hives and see how many use the staples versus nails. THEY DO NOT RUST! I live in FL with monsoon rains virtually every day during the summer; THEY DO NOT RUST!


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## guyross (Feb 18, 2011)

You will like the PC's depth adjustment.


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## bennybee (Jul 10, 2008)

I've used 1/2" stapler for years I glue. no splits I put nothing in the sides. For the bottom I use2- 7/8 divergent staples. Never had one come apart ever. Thousands of frames


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

1 1/4 staples and glue. It is what I have lying around. Have done over 1000 that way. Just did 400 more frames which are stacked in the living room right now.  My frames never come apart on me.


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