# Great queens from packages, why should I re-queen?



## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

I bought some packages from a local person. They are from a large operation most likely not treatment free, but have been since starting them in my boxes on 4.9mm cell size. (PF120 mann lake to be exact) 
These packages have been performing flawlessly after hiving the packages. When I hived my packages it was during a great dandelion bloom here in Wisconsin which I think helped. I see a lot of people wanting to immediately re- queen their packages for one reason or another. I do understand we want untreated bees, hygenic behavior, and pest resistant bees, but if you have a great laying queen and a healthy hive I do not see a reason to re- queen at that time. These bees I have will be just as treatment free as any other hive from a large operation, with a different queen or not. I guess my question is, what makes a hive with a great queen that may have not been treatment free at one time and now is, worse then a treament free queen from a breeder that you add to a package that was treated?


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

http://scientificbeekeeping.com

several months of reading here, but well worth the investment of time.

newly started colonies rarely have problems with varroa mites, especially packages that may have been 'scrubbed' or treated with miticide prior to being sold. 

the problem comes later in the year, typically later in the summer or early fall, but sometimes over the winter months, and that problem is the mite population is peaking while the bee population declining.

this results in a high mite infestation rate and if there happens to be a high titer of some of the more virulent viruses to boot it usually spells death for the colony.

what we see on the forum here is a fair number of first year beekeepers finding that their colonies are dwindling or have perished late in the season, and more often than not the story goes that they started with commercially produced packages and didn't check for or treat for mites.

like yours, these are colonies that built up like gangbusters from their packages and did not exhibit any problems until the very end of the season.

if your bees came with a history of being treated for mites it would be prudent to at least learn how to monitor your mite load as the season progresses. it would be good to learn how to assess for brood disease as well.

unfortunately, by the time inspections reveal that the mites and their associated viruses are interfering with the brooding of the overwintering bees it may be too late in the season for treatments to be effective.

this is why changing out the genetics early enough in the season is important to keep the situation from getting past a point of no return.

even better, and the advice i most often give to folks wanting to practice keeping bees off treatments, is to find a seasoned beekeeper having success doing so within driving distance of your location and obtain your bees and mentoring from them.


----------



## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

Makes a lot of since! I just didn't understand why everyone was changing out queens. Haha I have a few dates set with local non treatment keepers in the future! Can't wait to check out their yards. I'm also meeting with a migratory pollinator as well. I'll always keep treatment free until I succeed at it, but I want to see all sides of the business


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

You don't have to requeen, just see how they perform.


----------



## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

JRG13 said:


> You don't have to requeen, just see how they perform.


Well, IMO you will never know how some bees will do in your environment unless you let them do their own thing. I've had lots of bees do well and some die like above. Just part of finding survivors


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I have a 2 year survivor from a locally produced queen that isn't tf, 2 of 4 of the Saskatraz queens have made it to their second year. 

I did have one obvious mite out last fall. Looking back I wish I had monitored a bit better for colony failure and used robbing screens and screened in colonies that were failing. Just to reduce inter colony of mites transfer that probably happened. I will be putting robbing screens on probably July this year on my full size colonies. 

If you are starting out tf, take more measures, make more backup. You don't have to do in these colonies, but maybe get some nucs started with some tf/mite resistant queens and protect colonies from those that fail.


----------



## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

Harder,
That is what I am working on slowly but surely. Just testing out a lot bees, equipment, and methods. I have read a lot like many people and I have found that only way to find the best bee for your area is to try lots of bees. So, trying a lot of bees has taught me quite a bit so far. Still trying to get my hands on a Russian nuc and some queens. Kirk Webster and a lot of others use Russians and seem to have good success with mites and winter, even though they are a little swarmy haha... As mentioned above I'm meeting with a lot of people this summer to get some further insight on many things. Especially looking forward to meeting with a local guy that has some buckfast queens that have been over wintered 3 years. Also, meeting with another person 2 hour from my house that keeps 100 + treatment free hives. And by meeting I mean slaving in their bee yard taking off super and extracting honey in a non air conditioned shop hahahahaha. i just feel like there is no see one do all method in bee keeping especially treatment free. I've had packages do better then nucs, nucs do better then packages, full hives die when I package makes it, nucs that over winter well, nucs that die, packages that will only cross comb, gentle bees, mean bees, on and on. Only way to learn is try em all and fail or succeed but there is a shortage of nucs and quality queen producers in the north west where I live and I hope in a couple years to be able to supply some of the demand with treatment free bees.


----------



## 357 (May 2, 2016)

I think squarepeg makes a lot of great points. I'm a n00bee that started with two packages this year. They seem to be doing well but I am ordering two VSH queens to requeen with. I won't kill my package queens but rather put them into nucs and see how they overwinter. If they survive a Michigan winter and come out healthy and strong then they might be worth keeping around.


----------



## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

357,
Which part of Michigan do you live in?? I'm looking to put some hives in the upper penn next year. I'm looking for beekeepers up that far. I have a ton of family apple orchards that need bees and also it is very far out, and my hives will have very little contamination.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

ethanhogan said:


> 357,
> Which part of Michigan do you live in?? I'm looking to put some hives in the upper penn next year. I'm looking for beekeepers up that far. I have a ton of family apple orchards that need bees and also it is very far out, and my hives will have very little contamination.


Little contamination... in orchards? Are they orchards where there's a harvest or just old fruit trees that are "feral"?


----------



## 357 (May 2, 2016)

ethanhogan said:


> 357,
> Which part of Michigan do you live in?? I'm looking to put some hives in the upper penn next year. I'm looking for beekeepers up that far. I have a ton of family apple orchards that need bees and also it is very far out, and my hives will have very little contamination.


I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to do. Are you looking for a place to keep the bees long term in the UP, or are you looking for UP beekeepers that can rent you active hives for your apple orchards? I am in SE part of the LP (Lower Peninsula), Lapeer County to be more specific. I know people who have a little land in the UP that they only use for hunting but I've never been to the land myself. I have seen a few listings for beekeepers in the UP selling nucs and such. If you're looking for UP beekeepers I can post some links or PM you what I found.


----------



## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

Sorry for the confusion guys!! 
Myself and family own land and live in the Upper Penn.
I will be putting hives of my own hives in those orchards next year. 
JW, they are my orchards/ some are family and none of the trees are treated with anything. They produce a Great harvest every other year, the year in between we still get tons of apples just not as much as an ON year as I call it.
Hopefully this clears it all up haha. 357 if you have those peoples names that are selling nucs from the UP i would be interested if they are survivor stock.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Ethan - separate your bees in 2 places - treat 1 place - don't treat the other ones and see what happens - this will help you from loosing all your bees


----------



## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

treating is basically useless for me. I don't think I could stomach eating the honey from bees that have been treated knowing I just poured mitocides/ strips in the hives. I eat 95% organic food that I grow at my house from seed indoors and out. I then harvest all of my food and can / freeze enough food for myself and family all year. Yes, I know that sounds crazy but it is one of the reasons I got into beekeeping to begin with. I know the bees I have now have been treated at some point, all beeswax in the usa is contaminated, and other things beyond my control like bees having a 5 mile forage radious, but I am trying to be as natural/ organic as possible. It is a little easier with gardening because I have complete control over the soil, seeds, and other factors. It is also easier to be organic with the animals I eat because i know from the day they are born what their mother and they have eaten their entire lives. All of which is organic. I only say 95% organic in everything I do becasue there is no such thing as 100% organic in anything in this world. there is chemicals that can blow into organic hay fields etc. but I do my best. Sorry for the wrong response haha but I am passionate in organic farming/ life style. That is the reason I took up beekeeping I want to bring that organic approach to my hives and grow a treatment free apiary like many others have done before me. It wont be easy just like going all organic in my farming was not easy and lots of people said it was not possible, but hard work and TONS of hard lessons will make me succeed. I should probably take english and spelling over while I learn beekeeping. Sorry for all of typos, I'm a hyper person so most of this probably doesnt make since. Sorry everyone haha


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

well first off - your not supposed to be treating with the honey supers on - timing is everything with beekeeping. 2nd OAV treating is not supposed to leave anything behind


----------



## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

just explaining my theories and why I choose not to treat. Then I dont have to worry about super on and off to begin with. no reason to get angry. I just rather not treat my hives due to cost and the effect. I have nothing against people that do or anything I just rather not. Sorry if I offended you in some way.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Don't thank for a Minuit you offended me - and I am by no means angry - and if I sounded that please forgive me - I was just giving advise ask for - Will take a lot more than a forum to get my blood pressure up - I'm like a new rope throne on the ground - flexible and EZ


----------



## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

me too haha sorry I just didnt want to offend any one. that never my prerogative! I am a passionate person so sometimes my typing comes off offensive. Sorry if that was the case as well . I try not to use !!! or all CAPS they say those imply anger or screaming lol


----------



## 357 (May 2, 2016)

ethanhogan said:


> 357,
> Which part of Michigan do you live in?? I'm looking to put some hives in the upper penn next year. I'm looking for beekeepers up that far. I have a ton of family apple orchards that need bees and also it is very far out, and my hives will have very little contamination.


I thought for sure I had found a few in the UP but I can't find my list. I did find some other info for you though.

Beekeeping clubs in Michigan: http://www.michiganbees.org/about/clubs/
UP Beekeepers: http://upbees.weebly.com/
Superior Beekeeping Club, over 200 members: http://upbees.weebly.com/superior-beekeeping-club.html
Search tool for cold-hardy nucs http://northernbeenetwork.org/directory/categories/selling-nucs


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

About "treatment free" beekeepers. I know 3 of them and the more I learn about their methods the more I find that "They each have their own definition of TF". They treat bees but have rationalized their treatments as not being treatments. 

By the site-defintion TF bees are pretty much wild bees in a box left to their own devices. Not buying it but that's my observations and why I'm taking 5 steps back from the TF guys in my neighborhood due to the fact that I don't want to share what I do with them because whether we admit it or not we're competing to sell honey in the same market and they advertise by mouth that their "products" are superior due to their TF ways.

If your queens lay solid patterns and aren't making angry bees I would stick with what I had.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

aunt betty, it sounds like you are saying you treat your bees and think everyone else should too.

I don't treat my bees with anything in any way. That includes hive manipulations, removing brood, caging queens, or any of the other "no treatment" treatments. If my bees don't keep mites under control on their own, they will die. I am raising queens from my best colonies this year and plan to go into fall with good queens plus spares in all hives and nucs.

This statement in particular bothers me.


> If your queens lay solid patterns and aren't making angry bees I would stick with what I had.


By definition, leaving them alone means you are doing nothing at all to improve your stock. A queen can lay a solid brood pattern and still make no surplus honey. A queen can produce gentle bees and still not be profitable to keep. I look with a critical eye at my bees and seek ways to improve them. Evaluating and replacing queens is the single most important thing a beekeeper can do to improve colony performance.


----------



## RichardsonTX (Jul 3, 2011)

sakhoney said:


> Ethan - separate your bees in 2 places - treat 1 place - don't treat the other ones and see what happens - this will help you from loosing all your bees


Good advice!


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

ethanhogan said:


> These packages have been performing flawlessly after hiving the packages.


Don't get suckered too easy by a high producing good looking hive. Those hives with big populations, looking good, making you a bigger harvest than the other hives, are the ones that come fall when population naturally drops and mites are crammed onto less brood, can crash and burn from mites if the bees are from bee stock designed to be treated for mites.

And the trap for new players is they are feeling so good about their star performer hive they do not notice anything wrong till the hive is around the point of no return.


----------



## 357 (May 2, 2016)

aunt betty said:


> About "treatment free" beekeepers. I know 3 of them and the more I learn about their methods the more I find that "They each have their own definition of TF". They treat bees but have rationalized their treatments as not being treatments.
> 
> By the site-defintion TF bees are pretty much wild bees in a box left to their own devices. Not buying it but that's my observations and why I'm taking 5 steps back from the TF guys in my neighborhood due to the fact that I don't want to share what I do with them because whether we admit it or not we're competing to sell honey in the same market and they advertise by mouth that their "products" are superior due to their TF ways.
> 
> If your queens lay solid patterns and aren't making angry bees I would stick with what I had.


I would have to disagree with you. TF doesn't mean wild bees left to their own devices. TF beeks still manage their hives, they just don't want to prop up inferior genetics with artificial means. Sure some people will use any marketing gimmick to their advantage but don't assume all TF beeks have this as their sole motivation. 

As far as solid brood patterns, Michael Palmer makes great points about this in his videos. If our only desirable trait is a solid frame of capped brood, we may be selectively breeding for failure. Inspect your uncapped brood pattern instead. The reason being is if the uncapped brood pattern is good, then you have a good laying queen. If the capped brood pattern looks spotty, it could be a sign of hygienic behavior or bad laying pattern. But, if the uncapped brood pattern is good and the uncapped so-so, it could be hygiene. That hygienic behavior may have been reason for beeks to replace their queen in the past, despite the desirable traits her offspring are exhibiting by removing infected brood. If you take this logic to its conclusion, perhaps beekeepers have done themselves and the bees a disservice over the past decades by unintentionally yet selectively breeding for unhygienic behavior.


----------



## 357 (May 2, 2016)

Oldtimer said:


> Don't get suckered too easy by a high producing good looking hive. Those hives with big populations, looking good, making you a bigger harvest than the other hives, are the ones that come fall when population naturally drops and mites are crammed onto less brood, can crash and burn from mites if the bees are from bee stock designed to be treated for mites.
> 
> And the trap for new players is they are feeling so good about their star performer hive they do not notice anything wrong till the hive is around the point of no return.


OT makes a great point. The primary indicators of good colony health in the past may be leading us astray; solid frames of capped brood, large populations going into fall, etc. Colony population decline in the fall increases the mite/bee ratio in favor of the mites. We have to take things like this into consideration.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

How well they winter you will find out when winter comes...


----------



## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

Hahahahaha ^^ Michael you keep it so simple and practical! I love it one sentence sums it up


----------



## hivemaker (May 16, 2016)

Here is the thing. Package bee producers are mating a lot of queens in their areas. High queen populations to drone populations equal queens which get mated with far fewer drones than in a situation where the producer does not have 1000s of queens on mating flights at the same time. 

I attribute a large percentage of package winter failure to queen failure mid-winter. I autopsied and ran samples of winter deadouts with no other explanation of winter death other than the queen failed and wasn't able to maintain enough brood to maintain hive population. 

Replacing a package queen in her first year is just one method of increasing the odds of winter survival. You don't have to spend money to do it, just simply remove your queen and a couple of frames into a nuc box and let them raise a new queen. If they fail you can always reintroduce the old queen.


----------



## ethanhogan (Jun 1, 2016)

Yes once they get strong enough I am going to split the hive and re queen one nuc with a local over wintered queen and leave the other one. I will overwinter the nucs on top of one another and see which one makes it. Nice little experiment haha. The bees always seem to take care of them selves. I don't have to do much.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

All of my package queens and their daughters have wintered just dandy here. People act like a queen from Georgia or California is DOA in the north... I just don't think that's the case.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I dont understand what a queen is expected to be doing population wise to maintain a hive in mid winter. If you are seeing the colony collapse at this time, I think the cause was in the works much earlier in late summer / autumn. Maybe the queen gets blamed for conditions that are in the beekeepers court. 

If I set a colony into winter with stores that would satisfy a bee with carni habits it might well not take an italian headed colony thru winter. If your local bees have more carni influence they will winter better (or differently) than a southern origin queen that has italian habits. If that southern queen is predominantly of Cani style habits perhaps it does not matter whether she mated in Georgia, California or Minnesota.


----------



## hivemaker (May 16, 2016)

I don't fault the genetics of southern queens at all, I have some winter very well and some not, I have had daughters winter as well as anything else to be found.

My point is this. If a queen runs out of semen in the summer she gets superseded. If she was mated openly and due to large populations of queens in the mating yard, only found 2-3 drones to mate with, and then runs out early winter, that colony isn't going to be alive come spring. 

Drones are 1 time use and package producers certainly exceed the capacity of their drone colonies at times. Hedge your bet and re-queen with one from a smaller scale producer.


----------



## Johnnycake (May 13, 2016)

I don't know how to do the previous quote thing, so I have a question about this (from hivemaker): "Replacing a package queen in her first year is just one method of increasing the odds of winter survival. You don't have to spend money to do it, just simply remove your queen and a couple of frames into a nuc box and let them raise a new queen. If they fail you can always reintroduce the old queen."

I too am getting ready to requeen a package from Georgia with a more local overwintered, mated TF queen. But you're saying that you can just have them raise another themselves. My question is - but that doesn't change the genetics of the colony right? A local, overwintered mated queen would begin producing a new line of more localized, potentially (hopefully) hardy, resistant bees to your region? Or am I missing something?


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

My first queen was a Hawaiian carni. She didn't survive the winter, but I made 2 daughters from her and one did. She got superceded in the spring and her granddaughters are doing well this year. 

The best producer I have is a queen that is a few generations from a Hawaiian carni. I'm not an expert on bee races but I don't think they are very carni like anymore but have taken on a local flavour. It doesn't take long. In the meantime there may be some good traits introduced. 

One would expect most bees to have the same genetic tools in the population but the frequency of a given tool would vary from region to region due to local selection pressure. Thus it is possible for some southern queens to do just fine up north, but the frequency of success is less. So your odds are better to depend largely on local stock. There is also some issues with consistency with imported queens. The queens start off just fine (have been well mated), but are sometimes subjected to environmental extremes that can damage their reproductive capacity. This would vary from shipment to shipment and time of year. A well raised homemade queen doesn't have this potential issue.


----------



## hivemaker (May 16, 2016)

Johnnycake said:


> I too am getting ready to requeen a package from Georgia with a more local overwintered, mated TF queen. But you're saying that you can just have them raise another themselves. My question is - but that doesn't change the genetics of the colony right? A local, overwintered mated queen would begin producing a new line of more localized, potentially (hopefully) hardy, resistant bees to your region? Or am I missing something?


I don't subscribe to the local/not local line of thought. I have kept bees from all over this country in the north and find that a quality queen will do well regardless of where she came from. Keep in mind that everybody who has "northern local queens" started somewhere, and likely not with "northern local queens". Also with the massiveness of the package industry and the shipment of packages to every state in the country, anybody who open mates queens has the southern genetics mixed in without a doubt.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

hivemaker said:


> I don't subscribe to the local/not local line of thought. I have kept bees from all over this country in the north and find that a quality queen will do well regardless of where she came from. Keep in mind that everybody who has "northern local queens" started somewhere, and likely not with "northern local queens". Also with the massiveness of the package industry and the shipment of packages to every state in the country, anybody who open mates queens has the southern genetics mixed in without a doubt.


Yes but the selection pressure of winter is pretty ruthless in getting rid of gene mixes that don't work. Hence it doesn't take long to select for winter hardiness and change population wide gene frequencies. Basic genetics. But its not just about winter survival, but also bees adapted to the local disease landscape and even floral sources/timing. 

As well, populations that have been feral in an area for some time, have bits of genetic uniqueness. If most bee raising is local, then over time (lots of time), the genetic diversity will be built up. 

And of course when you bring in packages, you bring in whatever new disease is out there. Reduce the movement of bees inter regionally and you make the disease environment more predictable for local bees.

So no, as a rule packages from other areas shouldn't be used as a rule as a matter of good practice.


----------



## hivemaker (May 16, 2016)

lharder said:


> Yes but the selection pressure of winter is pretty ruthless in getting rid of gene mixes that don't work. Hence it doesn't take long to select for winter hardiness and change population wide gene frequencies. Basic genetics.


Not so basic... Unless the breeder is using II breeder queens (most are not) they have no idea who their breeder queens father is, so 50% of the equation is gone from the start. Then with open mating they have no idea who the queens husbands are.... so....

Plus when millions of packages come up from the south every year and the person who reared your "local queen" open mated her, and her mother before that, and grandmother... The argument that local is superior becomes pretty convoluted. The weak die out argument also doesn't work because the new batch of packages brought north would simply replace the ones that died with the same "inferior" genetics.

Success at wintering bees is directly correlated with experience IMO and have very little correlation with local stock. Being from Canada, where your bee supply comes from the opposite end of the earth, it should be a pretty simple concept to grasp. There are plenty of outfits up there getting bees from NZ and wintering them relatively well.


----------



## 357 (May 2, 2016)

hivemaker said:


> Not so basic... Unless the breeder is using II breeder queens (most are not) they have no idea who their breeder queens father is, so 50% of the equation is gone from the start. Then with open mating they have no idea who the queens husbands are.... so....
> 
> Plus when millions of packages come up from the south every year and the person who reared your "local queen" open mated her, and her mother before that, and grandmother... The argument that local is superior becomes pretty convoluted. The weak die out argument also doesn't work because the new batch of packages brought north would simply replace the ones that died with the same "inferior" genetics.
> 
> Success at wintering bees is directly correlated with experience IMO and have very little correlation with local stock. Being from Canada, where your bee supply comes from the opposite end of the earth, it should be a pretty simple concept to grasp. There are plenty of outfits up there getting bees from NZ and wintering them relatively well.


I could be misunderstanding you but it seems what you're saying is in direct conflict with the success story of someone like Michael Palmer.


----------



## hivemaker (May 16, 2016)

357 said:


> I could be misunderstanding you but it seems what you're saying is in direct conflict with the success story of someone like Michael Palmer.


Not at all; when you have 40 years experience in a local climate you get quite skilled at keeping bees. 

Was Mike born with bees? 40 years ago local stock wasn't anything anybody worried about, yet he made it with the bees he was able to get.


----------



## 357 (May 2, 2016)

hivemaker said:


> Not at all, when you have 40 years experience in a local climate you get quite skilled at keeping bees. I am certain Mr Palmer gets better wintering success with his bees than many of his customers do, and even he isn't having no winter losses. I think I have read posts where he said his loses are around 10%. I am sure he has repeat customers who can't keep even his bees alive in their local climate. I would also bet that he hasn't left his genetic lines untouched for 40 years without bringing in outside genetics.
> 
> He also manages his mites which is the number one reason people consistently kill their bees year after year.
> 
> If Mr Palmer were to be given a dozen queens from outside his region and used them to requeen, I bet his success with them would be inline with his own stock.


I read somewhere that he has introduced outside queens including VSH queens into his stock. I would bet he chose them from breeders in a similar climate. That said, I don't doubt that Mr Palmer would exceed most beek's success in your given scenario, but I doubt it would be on par with his current stock. He has selectively bred his bees as part of his sustainable apiary process. As I understand it there are a number of criteria considered but #1 is winter survivability. I guess you could say that's the first hoop they have to get through but certainly not the last in order to "prove" their good genetics. I wouldn't expect Mr Palmer to comment on this topic and claim local=better 100% always. But, I would expect him and others like him to agree that local feral genetics can be a positive influence to your stock, assuming they aren't just swarms from imported packages. Obviously I don't claim to speak for the man but I have researched him a little. His success at creating a large sustainable apiary in a northern climate certainly warrants examination and admiration.

After waiting in line in Michigan to pickup my package bees from Georgia, then listening to our club members talk about 50-60% losses annually, it just didn't sit well with me. This isn't just small-timers either. These loss numbers seem all too common here. While these aren't large for commercial beeks, I spoke to two men who keep over 300 colonies each. Both had losses over 50%. Both are importers of packages. Both import for themselves and sell them to others. Both purchase from the same supplier, who treats for mites and, both treat for mites regularly on their own. So, in my opinion mites aren't likely the only factor.

I'm not saying genetics is the only factor. I know you can't breed bulletproof soldiers by selective breeding but, genetics certainly plays a roll.


----------



## hivemaker (May 16, 2016)

357 said:


> I spoke to two men who keep over 300 colonies each. Both had losses over 50%. Both are importers of packages. Both import for themselves and sell them to others. Both purchase from the same supplier, who treats for mites and, both treat for mites regularly on their own. So, in my opinion mites aren't likely the only factor.



The key statement here is that they both sell packages. When your profit is 25 grand for every weekend you haul a load of packages north there isn't much incentive to worry about mites when you can replace the entire colony for about 68.00 and you are going to be there for a load anyway.

It's actually a fairly common business model. I know an operation that sells 1500 packs per spring (about 75 K profit margin) and just restocks his own hives rather than properly preparing them for wintering. Then he sends them out on pollination contracts. It's really tough to manage mite loads when your hives are traveling all summer, plus the added stress of being on the road makes them less likely to survive anyway. Every time the hives get moved a % loses their queen and ends up queen-less.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The argument for local stock has it's merits but also can be overblown, for example some folks think you get "local stock" from some guy down the road and all your problems go away.

However there is some truth to the local stock argument as can be demonstrated by one of the more obvious examples, African bees and Canadian winters won't work. OK that's an extreme example but to a lesser extent some bees will do better in some locations than others. But as per Hivemaker there are some folks do well with packages where other folks fail and blame it on the package, genetics, or whatever, where the guy down the road did OK with the same packages.

Re Michael Palmer I had the great privilage to spend a day with him a few months ago we discussed a few things and he looked over my bees it was very educational for me. He has found in his climate certain bee breeds winter poorly and over the years has bred from those that do well. He told me that he went with mostly black bees but recently he has noticed more golden bees beginning to creep back in, they must have adapted somewhat. He has also gradually reduced mite treatment and now has very low mite levels in his hives despite not doing a whole lot of treatment. I just heard his losses last winter were 2%. And just to be clear that's not 20%, it's 2%. This where winters are so cold bees cannot leave the hives for 4 straight months.

But I think a lot of his success is due to his somewhat perfectionist style. When we were opening my hives together I could tell he was not entirely comfortable with everything about my beekeeping I think he considers me somewhat rough. You can betcha that every hive of Mikes will get individual attention and be carefully prepared to be totally ready for whatever task Mike has lined up for it, and that would include going into winter. His breeding and selection program sounds to also be done in a rather obsessive manner, put the whole package together and you have the recipe for his remarkable success.

All I can say is if MP ever does give you some advice, take it.


----------



## 357 (May 2, 2016)

hivemaker said:


> It's actually a fairly common business model.


That's unfortunate. Both do pollination. One locally only, the other somewhere in California. I guess my thinking is that if genetics is important for winter survival, which many successful beeks believe, it would make sense not to want your northern feral gene pool pumped full of bees who have never been screened for winter survivability. To the supplier's defense, there is no need for them to breed only long-winter survivors. What we end up with is sub-50% annual survival rates which, only bolsters their business model and their bottom line.

OT, point taken about MP. I can tell from what little I've seen him work/speak in videos, that he is a master at his craft, one who considers the smallest details. I have a lot of respect for that. In my line of work such attention to detail is also critical. What I took from his videos was suggesting that starting with local stock is preferred but that alone is not enough to make an apiary sustainable. There is much more involved. Selective breeding, proper management of nucs with multiple roles, queens "overfed" RJ, just a ton of great info on how not to be beholden to the package bee industry.


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> aunt betty, it sounds like you are saying you treat your bees and think everyone else should too.
> 
> I don't treat my bees with anything in any way. That includes hive manipulations, removing brood, caging queens, or any of the other "no treatment" treatments. If my bees don't keep mites under control on their own, they will die. I am raising queens from my best colonies this year and plan to go into fall with good queens plus spares in all hives and nucs.
> 
> ...


That's nice.


----------



## hivemaker (May 16, 2016)

Pretty on point observation Oldtimer. I could not have put it into words so well.

There is actually quite a bit of research on the topic of winter suvivability. The most recent I have read was an article published this past March by Seeley.

He found that winter survival is greatly improved in colonies that swarm frequently. he hypothesized that feral colonies that survive do so due to a higher than average swarming impulse which tales them into winter with a young queen and having experienced multiple brood breaks post swarms.

His test hives he headed up with queens from California and the study was conducted at Cornell in Upstate NY. So there was no "local" element involved in the study. 

Here is the citation: Loftus, J. C., Smith, M. L., & Seeley, T. D. (2016). How honey bee colonies survive in the wild: Testing the importance of small nests and frequent swarming. PLoS One, 11(3) doi:http://dx.doi.org.ezproxy.snhu.edu/10.1371/journal.pone.0150362


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

There is possibly some misunderstanding on how population genetics works. Yes the same genetic tools will be found at a population level in the south and the north. Sexual reproduction maintains these tools so they are always lurking. They may not be needed now but if environment changes, they may be needed and can come to the fore. This is a general observation of population genetics of widespread species. 

However selection will change the relative frequency of these genetic tools and be maintained in some sort of hardy weinberg equilibrium. This happens quickly. Importing lots of bees will mess with this equilibrium but its heading there none the less.

Yes, with experience, beekeepers do a better job and is a confounding factor.

But we can now do some genetic testing and maybe someday destroy the argument that bee populations in the south are the same as the long term residents in the north.


----------



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

You left out epigenetics, the wild card that makes geneticists pull out their hair in exasperation.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Local queens winter better:

in Maine:
http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNE10-694&y=2010&t=1
http://www.nesare.org/State-Programs/Maine/Winter-hardy-bees
http://smallfarms.cornell.edu/2012/01/09/establishing-northern-honeybee-colonies/

"Summary
"Our project explored the differences in strength and survival between three options for starting new honeybee colonies. Over the course of two years 54 new honey bee colonies were started, managed, monitored, and evaluated by Master Beekeeper Erin MacGregor-Forbes and experienced beekeeper Larry Peiffer. The purpose of the experiment was to determine whether survival rates between the groups of colonies would be measurably different, and whether beekeeper choices in colony starts could influence winter survival probability. The project involved three colony groups: Two thirds of our colonies were started using commercially raised southern packages of bees, 3lbs of bees and a queen bee in a cage. (Packages) Packages are the most commonly purchased colony start option available to beekeepers in the United States, comprising roughly 80% of all new colonies started in New England. The second colony group (1/3 of our project) was comprised of northern raised overwintered nucleus colonies, a northern raised queen and her offspring, 5 frames of bees, along with honey comb, pollen, and nectar stores (Nucs). Northern raised nucleus colonies are less commonly purchased because they are less available for sale ? the demand for Northern Raised Nucs vastly outstrips the supply in New England. The third colony group we included is a compromise between the above two choices. Once the packages were established in hives in Maine, and when northern raised queens were available (approximately 60 days after package installation), we removed the queens from half of the package started colonies and replaced them with northern raised and mated queens. (Requeened Packages) We then managed each colony independently and measured their honey production, disease and mite load, and most importantly, survival over winter to see if there were differences between the Packages, Nucs, Requeened Packages. Our results were very promising in the survival differences. In over two years, the adjusted data for survival revealed the following: 42% of the southern commercially raised package colonies survived their fist winter strong enough to be a viable colony in the following summer. 83% of the overwintered northern raised Nucleus colonies were in viable condition, and 90% of the northern requeened packages were in viable condition the following spring. In our project, the Nucs experienced nearly twice the survival rate of the Packages. Additionally, the Requeened Packages also experienced a survival rate nearly double the rate of the ?as bought? Packages. Although executed over two years, our sample size was small (54 colonies started total, but only 39 included in this final data due to colony disqualification) and therefore could be subject to seasonal and statistical error. We will be performing additional work narrowing the study groups to just Packages and Requeened Packages in 2013. We hope to improve the statistical significance of our results through further study, but feel strongly that the promise shown by our first two years offers New England beekeepers an attractive option for increasing the survival of new colonies."


In Virginia:
http://mysare.sare.org/MySare/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FS08-223&t=1&y=2011
(click on "create pdf" to see the report)

"Summary
"The Prince William Regional Beekeepers Association (PWRBA) producer SARE project compared hives started from packaged bees to hives started from nucleus colonies (nucs) positively demonstrating higher survival for nuc started hives than package started hives, with survival differences more pronounced in the second year. Education and training resulted in adopting more sustainable beekeeping practices. These centered on utilizing existing colonies to produce sufficient nucs to (1) replace dead hives, (2) increase apiaries, and (3) provide starter hives for new beekeepers and association members instead of relying on commercially produced packaged bees from outside the region. The number of nucs made available to association members in lieu of packaged bees increased dramatically over the course of the project. Queen rearing was successfully initiated."


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

The hives that I have that are producing the most honey came from local bred bees. Had some Georgia bees from a certain guy who comes to the club annually to pitch his "product" and am here to tell you that Georgia bees don't do so great here. Second generation from them is fine. The packages I got superceded themselves hasty quick. At the time I had only a handful of colonies so raiding one to prop up another was not happening. 

Also have some queens that came from Florida and their offspring are freaking awesome producers. 
In general packages are superceded or replaced due to swarming or whatever. Their offspring breed with locals and the combination is doing me quite well. Bottom line...breed your own queens. It is not that hard. 

The local bees I cut out of buildings and trees seem to do quite well. This is not rocket science. One of the cutouts from last year has filled four supers already and we're in the middle of a fantastic honey flow. Life is good for a beekeeper if you have time and do the work.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

my colonies seem to be adapted to the bimodal nectar flows we have here, i.e. a strong main spring flow, followed by an extended summer dearth, followed a lesser and shorter fall flow, followed by the winter dearth, and so on.

the populations in the hives at this time are already reduced to about half of what they were during the peak of the main flow and the prime swarming period which occurred here in early may. i am seeing this reduction in population even with the colonies that were prevented from swarming. 

the colonies are now brood breaking and new wax making has been curtailed. we are experiencing extreme drought conditions here, but there still appears to be just enough nectar coming in to supply the day to day colony requirements with a little extra getting stored here and there.

these observations are similar to what i have been seeing over the past several seasons even when rainfall is at or above normal. my interpretation is that the strain of survivors i am working with exhibits the trait of modulating brood rearing well in advance of 'anticipated' nectar flows.

i've no experience with other strains, but my understanding from what i have read is that during times of dearth some strains, (italians perhaps?), do not curtail their brood rearing as much, are more prone to starvation, and use many more stores while overwintering.

not breaking from brood rearing would be desirable trait for migratory beekeepers who employ their colonies in full production mode year round by building numbers over the winter months for almond pollination and exploiting nectar flows in the north during the summer months.

in my location bees adapted thusly would likely mean less of a honey harvest and/or would likely require supplemental feeding. mite counts would also likely be higher due to the lack of the brood break.

along with brood breaking my bees exhibit the trait of frugality. from the first frost in the fall until the first rounds of brood reared in late winter my colonies only burn through a handful of pounds of their winter stores. it's the same during the summer dearth, and depending on how much or how little rain we get through the summer, for the most part very little of the stored spring honey gets consumed during the summer dearth brood break.

i don't see any other way to intrepret these observations other than they are adaptions made by the local population of bees that are desirable and beneficial for them to cope with the unique weather and availability of forage that we have here.

i do have my doubts that they would be just as successful with these adaptations in a drastically different ecoregion or if employed in a migratory operation in which wide open brood rearing at all times is desirable.


----------



## 357 (May 2, 2016)

Michael Bush said:


> Local queens winter better:
> 
> "42% of the southern commercially raised package colonies survived their fist winter strong enough to be a viable colony in the following summer. 83% of the overwintered northern raised Nucleus colonies were in viable condition, and 90% of the northern requeened packages were in viable condition the following spring."


I can't comment on the survival rate of local nucs but the survival rate of package bees quoted here is on par with what I hear at my local club meetings; less than 50%. A larger study would be nice if one existed. 39 colonies isn't a large enough sample size to "close the book" on the issue.


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Squarepeg, those seem like some very accurate observations. It is unfortunate that the breeding habits of the dominant pollination type bee make it a very good customer for the varroa mite! I dont think many of the pollination operators would trade them though for bees like what I have that fit much closer to the habits of the bees you are working with. I dont know what kind of a mite load mine would tolerate because I dont give them much opportunity to show me; they sure do winter well, are especially nice to work with, moderate honey producers but need a fair bit of watching regarding swarming. I sure would not trade them for the pollinators so I guess we are both happy!


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks frank. what i have said before is that beekeeping cannot be a 'one size fits all' endeavor. i have a lot of respect for folks like jim lyon who has developed methods for making a profitable living with bees after abandoning the use of synthetic miticides and the adoption of his own queenrearing with the utilization of careful selection toward mite resistance.

i think we could save ourselves a lot of angst here on the forum by accepting the fact that there are many factors that come into play when it comes to making management decisions. in my view there is no basis in fact for any us to adopt the position that our way of doing things is 'the' way, nor should it be our mission to convert the rest of the beekeeping world to 'any' way.

i happen to believe that in the long run it's beneficial to the species as well as to those of us who exploit them that we strive to do what we can to move the bees forward on a path to sustain themselves with minimal or no intervention against the varroa mite. it is below my pay grade however to provide a solution for resolving the tension created by the competing interests in this regard.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Squairpeg - Your are correct - you have to find out what works for you. But were here to guide them in the right direction. I like to start out with - this is what works for me - or this is what I would do. But the beekeeper has to make up there own mine - maybe they don't want 5 & 6 or 10 or 100 hives. That's when we let them know stuff like - Make the extra nucs - then sell them ETC


----------



## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> All I can say is if MP ever does give you some advice, take it.


:thumbsup:


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> Local queens winter better:
> 
> in Maine:
> http://mysare.sare.org/mySARE/ProjectReport.aspx?do=viewRept&pn=FNE10-694&y=2010&t=1
> ...


From the study

"Disease and parasite loads were higher in the packaged hives than the “nucs”, not surprisingly leading to the higher mortality rates in those colonies".

Not surprising at all, I would have confidently predicted the result of this study before they even started it.

Most people know by now that if you get commercial package bees you treat them for mites or face losing them.

The beekeeping involved was amateurish also. The first time around they let nearly all the packages supersede and mate locally. They blamed this on bad weather but in fact if they are trying to study queens supplied with packages, allowing them to supersede and mate locally is just incompetent beekeeping, whatever the weather.

They also said that the package hives made a lot more honey than the local nucs, and blamed this on the local nucs all swarming. Again incompetence. TF theory is that swarming and brood breaks help with mite control, yet they allow one group of hives to swarm while the other group does not, so they are not comparing apples with apples.

They said any treatment that was done, was done with Api-Life-Var. A notoriously ineffective treatment that in my opinion should not even be sold. If they were going to treat at all they should have used something that works.

In my view the study has too many holes in the method. Having said that, Mike Palmer tells me that locally adapted bees have better winter survival for him, and I believe him. However as to the linked study, if before doing it, they had told me how it would work and all the mistakes they would make, pretty sure I could have given a reasonably accurate guess at the outcome, as could have most others here.

Also, a recurrant theme that keeps cropping up through the study is the difficulty of getting local bees as demand far outstrips supply, they keep mentioning that. Why, if the locally adapted bees in the real world are doing so much better and surviving, is it so hard to buy one? It doesn't seem to be what one would expect.

Those guys should stop complaining about packages, stop buying packages, and buy the local bees they claim are surviving. Or is that too simple to work for some reason?


----------



## 357 (May 2, 2016)

Oldtimer said:


> Those guys should stop complaining about packages, stop buying packages, and buy the local bees they claim are surviving. Or is that too simple to work for some reason?


If I buy anything other than queens going forward I will be buying local. I would prefer local queens but if they are of a similar climate or in the same region that will have to do. There's not a huge difference between where I am and other great lakes states for example.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

But, OT, it was a master beekeeper!


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> From the study
> 
> Also, a recurrant theme that keeps cropping up through the study is the difficulty of getting local bees as demand far outstrips supply, they keep mentioning that. Why, if the locally adapted bees in the real world are doing so much better and surviving, is it so hard to buy one? It doesn't seem to be what one would expect.
> 
> Those guys should stop complaining about packages, stop buying packages, and buy the local bees they claim are surviving. Or is that too simple to work for some reason?


Cause maybe not enough people are doing it yet? In my club I know that the importance of local bees is given scant attention. If at a club level, more effort was given to local self sufficiency, it could easily be done. I point people towards M. Palmer's talks to open that possibility. Who know's I may be selling a few overwintered nucs next spring. I'm about to give go over your queen rearing information to start my next set of nucs after making an initial set using snelgrove boards to raise a few queens.


----------



## hivemaker (May 16, 2016)

lharder said:


> Cause maybe not enough people are doing it yet? In my club I know that the importance of local bees is given scant attention. If at a club level, more effort was given to local self sufficiency, it could easily be done. I point people towards M. Palmer's talks to open that possibility. Who know's I may be selling a few overwintered nucs next spring. I'm about to give go over your queen rearing information to start my next set of nucs after making an initial set using snelgrove boards to raise a few queens.


The cost difference is a limiting factor. There will always be people who would rather spend the lessor amount of money regardless of how lousy the product becomes. There are also a lot of really lousy nucs about. 

Every time I read that SARE report it makes me sick that tax dollars are wasted on programs like that. No scientific or research background at all and a blatant disregard for proper scientific research models. No randomization, no power analysis, p value etc.


----------



## 357 (May 2, 2016)

lharder said:


> Cause maybe not enough people are doing it yet? In my club I know that the importance of local bees is given scant attention. If at a club level, more effort was given to local self sufficiency, it could easily be done. I point people towards M. Palmer's talks to open that possibility. Who know's I may be selling a few overwintered nucs next spring. I'm about to give go over your queen rearing information to start my next set of nucs after making an initial set using snelgrove boards to raise a few queens.


My club is the same so far. I too am hoping to have extra nuc colonies in the spring. I'm not ready to jump into queen rearing, but I plan on giving it a go next year. I'm tempted to ask my club if they would be willing to show Michael Parlmer's Sustainable Apiary video at one of the meetings. However, I'm a total n00b so I don't know how well that will be received. Maybe it's something I can bring up after this season winds down.


----------



## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

MB posted the survival rate of the commercial queens/packages, and here's why; 



FlowerPlanter said:


> There's also the genetic aspect;
> 
> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/wha...-4-the-genetic-consequences-of-domestication/
> 
> ...


----------



## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

FlowerPlanter said:


> MB posted the survival rate of the commercial queens/packages, and here's why;


Perhaps it is worth noting that the healthiest, most vigorous mice that have ever lived are the result of brother X sister matings for 40 or 50 consecutive generations. In fact this is a problem in some kinds of toxicology studies as a line of inbred (brother X sister matings only) from 25 years ago does not always produce the exact same results today as today's mice are stronger and more fecund even thou genetically you would think they are identical to those from 25 years ago from which they descended.

Ever look at the fancy guppies in the pet stores with the big flowing fins? Those are junk compared to show quality. Show quality involves mating brother to sister for at least 20 generations and doing this with at least two and better three or four lines all from the same inbred starting stock. Then after all those brother x sister matings you cross lines resulting in big fish with big fins that may be good enough to take to a show. A typical wild female guppy is under an inch long. I have seen inbred females over 3 inches long. A typical wild female might give birth to 15 young at a time. I have seen inbred females give birth to 150 young at a time.

Further, similar sex alleles do have the slightest affinity for each other. Nor do they have the slightest repulsion. They randomly assort.


----------

