# Better sense of smell for mite tolerant bees?



## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Anybody know if Varroa Sensitive Hygienic bees have an enhanced ability to smell varroa? Seems likely, if they are detecting infested capped pupae.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Fusion_power said:


> This speculation, but I have some corroborating observations. I noticed that my bees are very hard to requeen, they have to be hopelessly queenless before they will readily accept a new queen. I also noticed very little drifting from one hive to another even when I have hives stacked up on top of each other. These bees are highly resistant to varroa. They do not like foreign substances in the hive, this particularly includes things like markings on queens. So what do all of these add up to? I'm speculating that highly varroa resistant bees have a better sense of smell than susceptible bees. It is possible that there are structural changes to the antennae that could be seen under a microscope. One problem, I do not have any mite susceptible bees to compare with.
> 
> Please do not take this as some kind of proof, it is just a few observations that may point to one of the mechanisms involved in varroa tolerance.


While I haven't had nearly your experience or time with bees, my bees exhibit the same behaviors you have listed. I don't know what other sense they would utilize in many of those instances. Could be.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

you may have seen this already but this discussion had to do with the finding that some colonies are more accepting of drifters than others, and that those more accepting of drifters had higher varroa infestation rates:

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1607&L=bee-l&F=&S=&P=86940

plb writes: "Evidently, the infested hives had more drifted bees than the uninfested ones. They state: "Varroa-infested colonies show an enhanced attraction of drifting workers." "

or to put it another way, uninfested hives show an enhanced ability to not allow the ingress of drifting workers.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

On the drift thing I can at least say there was a study published a year or two back on functions of bee antennae, and they identified which antenna does the "Identify Friend or Foe" function. Clip that one off and the bees can't tell a member of their hive from an intruder.

As far as our bees doing it, we had an episode Monday that I found interesting. We put out some extraction materials for the bees to clean up. One of the first to discover it got herself in a real mess. I fished her out of a puddle of honey and put her on the entrance of one hive. She scurried away from the entrance and over the side of the landing board. Figuring I'd picked the wrong hive, I put her on the other candidate landing board. In she went with no hesitation. Assuming she could still tell the difference while drenched in honey, I was pretty impressed at the ability. These two colonies have queens that are sisters, so one would presume they smell very much alike.

The hive she entered was our strongest. The breed is a locally adapted VSH line, very good at managing mites (I'm told they can be nearly treatment free, although we treat when we hit our thresholds).


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I wonder if the colonies that are infested, by allowing the entrance of drifting bees, are trying to make up for the dwindling population. It might be a defense mechanism against mites as a last ditch effort to offset die off.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

one of the reasons offered in the discussion was that mite infested colonies suffer the loss of ability to keep their guard up and thereby end up with more drifted bees. the alternative explanation is that mite resistant colonies are more discriminatory about who they allow in and thereby keep infested bees (which may be more prone to drift by virtue of their malady) from entering and bringing new mites into the hive. it's also possible that both mechanisms are in play.

the bottom line is that colonies with lower mite counts allow less drifting of foreign bees into the hive.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

squarepeg said:


> one of the reasons offered in the discussion was that mite infested colonies suffer the loss of ability to keep their guard up and thereby end up with more drifted bees. the alternative explanation is that mite resistant colonies are more discriminatory about who they allow in and thereby keep infested bees (which may be more prone to drift by virtue of their malady) from entering and bringing new mites into the hive. it's also possible that both mechanisms are in play.
> 
> the bottom line is that colonies with lower mite counts allow less drifting of foreign bees into the hive.


This is a more sensible explanation. Was just throwing out another reason why the infested colonies may not mind drift. From my experience, my most resistant colonies are adamant about keeping everything out of the hive that doesn't belong there, from SHB, to other bees, to pretty much anything that tries to enter. I think, as the study mentions, population density is key here as well, which with a failing, mite infested hive, you're not going to have.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Nordak said:


> my most resistant colonies are adamant about keeping everything out of the hive that doesn't belong there, from SHB, to other bees, to pretty much anything that tries to enter.


i think that's what dar is getting at in the op and suggesting that it may have something to do with the sense of smell, which i think is entirely possible, along with the motivation to do something about it when something doesn't smell right.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Definitely. I think it's a possibility. These bees have a vigor that non-resistant bees just don't have, and I bet smell has much to do with it. Very astute observation. The one colony of non-resistant bees I have had just seemed listless in defensive terms by comparison, even before it got to a collapse level and everything was good by all appearances. There is an observational difference, for certain.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Fusion_power said:


> One problem, I do not have any mite susceptible bees to compare with.


People just don't appreciate the challenges some of us have to face.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> People just don't appreciate the challenges some of us have to face.


 From anyone else, that would most likely be sarcasm. From you, I think it is facetiousness.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have seen in the list of traits of different bee strains that the Carni / Russian lineage has better homing and direction finding instincts. Less drifting and better mating return success. If there is a connection to smell and varroa sensing abilities, it could all contribute to better mite handling and general disease dispersion.

Conjecture on my part for sure but my direct experience tells me that some bees have vastly different inclinations to rob other hives.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I do see a bee here and there that is not allowed to enter the hives, it could be a drifter or want a be robber. 

But one thing I do notice there is always some fighting going on when I add a frame of brood and bees, so I either shake off all the bees or use a screened shim. Might be because of smell they don't accept other bees.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Fusion_power said:


> From you, I think it is facetiousness.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Fusion_power said:


> I'm speculating that highly varroa resistant bees have a better sense of smell than susceptible bees.


Very plausable.

Probably every beekeeper has been frustrated watching mites walk around in a hive and even on the bees with impunity, we think, why don't those bees just deal to them!

Life inside the hive is dark and is not controlled by sight, but by touch and smell. So varroa have come to mimick the bee smell exactly, therefore to the bees they are meant to be there, part of the hive. Only way bees could resist them is if they can detect them, and that would best be done by smell.



crofter said:


> Conjecture on my part for sure but my direct experience tells me that some bees have vastly different inclinations to rob other hives.


Also true. I have sometimes wondered why certain bee breeds do not rob or at least not much, would there not be an advantage in getting extra stores by robbing? I don't think not robbing and not drifting has been brought about by varroa because varroa is only very recent in the experience of EHB's. But my personal theory is that the robbing bees such as Italians likely came from a place with no AFB, but non robbing bees came from somewhere infected with AFB, so there would be an evolutionary advantage in not robbing. However nobody actually knows where AFB came from, so this theory is all conjecture on my part.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Yet swarms inhabit deadouts readily. There are after all only so many cavities in a forest. So it can't be the AFB or other brood disease kind of thing. However hygienic bees keep AFB, which is common, from expressing itself. Maybe its more of a virus kind of thing. Maybe unhealthy hives smell different and are avoided until it dies. Pretty complex behaviour, but bees are astonishing at times.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Brother Adam believed there was a link between robbing and a heightened sense of smell.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

This all sounds well and good...as a theory. The way things morph on the internet...by next season people will be telling me mites are no longer a problem since they've gotten olfactory enhanced bees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Dan I certainly agree that theories and deductions abound in some internet forums, often without grounding in reality. However in the case of varroa mites it has been shown they smell the same as bees and pretty obvious why.

In my country we have a problem with common wasps, which are somewhat similar to your yellow jackets. A few years ago a tiny parasitic wasp that enters the wasp nest and lays eggs on the brood was introduced as a control measure. It nearly wiped out one strain, but not the other, which built in numbers so there are now just as many wasps as before. Cameras were placed inside wasp nests to find why the parasitic wasps were not succesful against this strain, and wasps were filmed biting and killing the parasites. Further study found that the parasite smelled exactly like the strain it successfully parasitised, but slightly different to the strain it could not infest, which enabled the wasps to identify the parasite as something that should not be in the nest.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> However in the case of varroa mites it has been shown they smell the same as bees and pretty obvious why.


I wasn't questioning the theory. I was only stating that, as with so many other beekeeping theories suggested on the internet, they take on a life of their own. And before you know it they are being offered as fact. Small cell, foundationless, top bar hives and brood breaks are examples of such theories. I get former beekeepers who've lost their bees insist that mites weren't a problem...as the keeper subscribed to the aforementioned theories...convinced they were fact. Next year...I won't be surprised if some beekeeper doesn't come up and tell me about bees that smell mites...as though proven.
The idea has possibilities. The internet may convert the theory to a proven fact in short order.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Looks like they smell them.
It can`t be the movements.

https://youtu.be/4LKZEtrw4pE


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

SiWolKe said:


> Looks like they smell them.
> It can`t be the movements.


That sucker is huge!


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

beemandan said:


> I wasn't questioning the theory. I was only stating that, as with so many other beekeeping theories suggested on the internet, they take on a life of their own.....top bar hives


What is top bar theory? Serious question, as I didn't know there were any theories involved around them helping control varroa, if that's what you meant.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> mites are no longer a problem since they've gotten olfactory enhanced bees.


I'll tell my mite chewing beetle bruising honey hustlers that they can't go round bragging about their sniffers.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

beemandan said:


> That sucker is huge!


Interesting video, but I can't tell from looking just how the bees could identify it. If it were "smell", there would be antenna activity involved, and I didn't notice any.

I'm hoping to get some ankle biters next year, and I'd like to video them doing their thing. This looked like it might be a biting behavior. Anybody know how they identify mites?

Inspecting a hive earlier this week, I spotted a small hive beetle. I was about to crush it when one of the girls rushed up and chased it down in the frames. I'm guessing she saw it, due to the distance at which she started the chase, but that can't be how they usually identify SHB, down in the dark recesses of the hive.


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

A lecture given by Ricarda Kather at the National Honey Show 2013 entitled "Ghosts in the Hive - Varroa's life cycle inside a Honey Bee Colony". A very interesting talk about Varroa ability to mimic the smell of a honeybee during the different stages its growth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE4emUMyOWs


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Nordak said:


> What is top bar theory?


I think it gets lumped into the natural cell theory....since you don't use foundation. I've had a number of former top bar beekeepers tell me that they don't get mites....but, strangely, their colonies collapse anyway.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

beemandan said:


> I wasn't questioning the theory. I was only stating that, as with so many other beekeeping theories suggested on the internet, they take on a life of their own. And before you know it they are being offered as fact.


Oh certainly agree.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Stephenpbird said:


> A lecture given by Ricarda Kather at the National Honey Show 2013 entitled "Ghosts in the Hive - Varroa's life cycle inside a Honey Bee Colony". A very interesting talk about Varroa ability to mimic the smell of a honeybee during the different stages its growth
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE4emUMyOWs


That video is well worth watching, an excellent find Stephen!

In her speel starting at 19.00, she describes how varroa can change their odour to match the lifecycle stage of the bee it is on, and also adjust their odour from one colony to another to match the particular colony.

This may destroy the idea that some colonies can smell them.

Only way around that would be if some colonies are so different the varroa cannot adjust to them. But of course that would be speculation, and yet another one of those unproven internet theories Dan refered to.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

beemandan said:


> I think it gets lumped into the natural cell theory....since you don't use foundation. I've had a number of former top bar beekeepers tell me that they don't get mites....but, strangely, their colonies collapse anyway.


I've never heard or read anyone attribute miteless colonies (no such thing) to either TBHs or foundationless comb. Those are, or were, some wacky beeks.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Stephenpbird said:


> A lecture given by Ricarda Kather at the National Honey Show 2013 entitled "Ghosts in the Hive - Varroa's life cycle inside a Honey Bee Colony". A very interesting talk about Varroa ability to mimic the smell of a honeybee during the different stages its growth
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE4emUMyOWs


Fascinating, thanks for sharing. It's all about the lipids. An amazing adaptation on the mite's part.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Nordak said:


> I've never heard or read anyone attribute miteless colonies (no such thing) to either TBHs or foundationless comb. Those are, or were, some wacky beeks.


There's a prolific poster here on Beesource who says that since going to natural cell....he's foundationless, I believe....he's has trouble finding any mites. It's more common than you think....I'm thinkin'.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Nordak said:


> I've never heard or read anyone attribute miteless colonies (no such thing) to either *TBHs* or foundationless comb.


Don't see it here these days, but back in 2008 this was a commonly stated belief on the TBH forum and elsewhere. 



Nordak said:


> I've never heard or read anyone attribute miteless colonies (no such thing) to either TBHs or *foundationless comb*.


Read Michael Bush.

Miteless? Did Dan say Miteless? He likely agrees with you there might be no such thing as completely totally absolutely Miteless. He was talking about people claiming mites not a problem.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Oldtimer said:


> Miteless? Did Dan say Miteless?


Nope, the TBH beeks did. Dan knows better.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well I'm not sure anyone said Miteless. Other than you. 

I do recall when I first signed up to Beesource in 2010 getting drawn into arguments with both TBH and Warre keepers who claimed their hives would not get mites, based purely on the fact that the hive was a TBH or Warre, and therefore clearly superior to those evil langstroth mite factories. Sure their hive had died and they didn't know why, but it couldn't be mites because the hive was a TBH / Warre.

Probably I was a little too argumentative about it, or concerned for the people. But have noted since that most of those folks are no longer in the bee business.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

beemandan said:


> I've had a number of former top bar beekeepers tell me that they don't get mites


If you don't get mites, by deduction, I believe one could claim said hives were "miteless." Maybe not, sounds close enough by my reasoning. Anyway, back to real mite scenarios..


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Taken literally, you are quite correct. You got me.

Unless Dan meant it the same way everybody else who says their hives don't get mites mean it.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I'm sorry...I don't see a huge difference. A relatively new beekeeper claiming no mites or a forty year beekeeper saying that I have trouble finding any mites. Just me, I guess.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Oldtimer said:


> Taken literally, you are quite correct. You got me.
> 
> Unless Dan meant it the same way everybody else who says their hives don't get mites mean it.


If it seemed like I was trying to get you, I wasn't. I've never heard anyone use the statement "I don't get mites" unless they meant it in an "I don't understand mites" kind of way. Perhaps as you expressed, it is something of the past. I hope so. I apologize if it came across as me trying to practice one upmanship. That's something I find distasteful, and try not to get involved in. Goes against my better nature. Best to you and your bees, Oldtimer.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

beemandan said:


> I'm sorry...I don't see a huge difference. A relatively new beekeeper claiming no mites or a forty year beekeeper saying that I have trouble finding any mites. Just me, I guess.


I see a difference, but It's all subjectivity. Best to you.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Nordak said:


> Best to you and your bees, Oldtimer.


Thanks.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Nordak said:


> I see a difference, but It's all subjectivity. Best to you.


Best to you as well.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

SiWolKe said:


> It can`t be the movements.


I think you are right. I watched the video again. I think that mite is dead. I've never seen one stand still unless it was attached to a bee. Also...pretty convenient that the camera just happened to be there and ready. What are the chances that this was staged? Dead mite placed on the landing board. Who knows what the bees were smelling. Decomposition? Maybe fresh from an alcohol wash? Sorry...this raises many red flags, in my opinion.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Maybe the bees are little robots, worked from far away.

You`re a sceptic, beemandan  but that`s ok.
I believe the video is staged and the mite could be dead. I like the ferocious movements of the bees!

My former mentor always said, the more mites you find on the bottom board, the better the grooming is. 
Other beekeepers would panic.
He was very cool about this, never counted mites.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

A couple of years back we combined a queenless hive with a VSH nuc, a particular local breed that I think are also good groomers. I came to that conclusion when the mite drop rate skyrocketed as the nuc population took over during the summer. Over that same time we did several sugar rolls, which returned 0-2 mites consistently. We did panic ... we finally treated with formic acid, which purged about 700 mites total, consistent with the sugar roll counts and not at all what the alarming increase in drop rate suggested. 

Bees that groom are detecting the mites somehow. One could imagine they can feel the nasty things on them. I know I can feel a tick crawling on my legs because I'm kinda hairy. Bees are as well, and recent discoveries suggest the hairs are quite sensitive, even giving bees an electrostatic sense of their surroundings.

Was that video staged? I don't know that the question is relevant. The scientific approach to the question is, can it be replicated? If not, can a better method of investigating the phenomenon be devised? One would think that you could do better than a dead mite on a landing board, hardly a fair test for what happens inside a hive. Mite management is one of a long list of bee-haviors I want to video if I can ever get the right adaptations to my woodenware installed. I want observation windows in the sides of my two indoor nucs. Although one of those big, beautiful, and expensive obs hives would be nice, too.

A project for this winter.

At the moment, part of my problem is the apiary is 100% that line of VSH/groomers, under IPM treatment, and its rather hard to spot a mite in there. That's good for the bees, but a problem for the videographer. However, if a mite does show up, the bee-havior toward it should be interesting. Are they "smelling" with their antennae? Doing a "get it off me" dance? Feeling a mite scurry across body hairs? Or something we're clueless about because we are not bees and they are?


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Fusion_power said:


> Please do not take this as some kind of proof, it is just a few observations that may point to one of the mechanisms involved in varroa tolerance.


Differential hygienic behaviour towards Varroa jacobsoni in capped worker brood of Apis cerana depends on alien scent adhering to the mites. The results indicate that differences in hygienic behaviour are due to scent cues adhering to the mites. The incidence of this type of behaviour in the Apis mellifera colony was extremely low.

You can see more at http://www.ibra.org.uk/articles/Diff...ds-V-jacobsoni 
(http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?305226-Scent-cues-and-hygienic-behaviour)


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Hi Eduardo,
I´m not able to open this link.

Is that apis cerana in the video?
https://youtu.be/4LKZEtrw4pE

Here is one more link, but in german. You may look at the picts or charts.

http://files.homepagemodules.de/b204623/f13t140p1564n2_BUbVSvdg.pdf



> Varroa jacobsoni vermehrt sich bei Apis cerana ausschließlich auf Drohnenbrut, nicht aber auf Arbeiterinnenbrut. Cerana-Arbeiterinnen beginnen sofort mit Reinigungsbewegungen, sobald eine Varroa auf sie springt. Gelingt es ihr, die Milbe mit den Kiefern zu fassen, so ist sie in der Lage, Beine abzubeißen und das Rückenschild zu durchschneiden.


_translated:
Vj breeds only in drone brood not in worker brood. Cerana workers start immediately with cleansing movements the moment a varroa mite jumps on. Is she able to take her with her jaws, she is able to bite legs and back shell._


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The allogrooming bees I have here will help each other to groom.
Sometimes they look quite aggressive flipping under this individual bee like
it has cancer or something on. If it wasn't for finding the mites under the bee's belly then
what is the purpose of allogrooming? Still need to study more to understand what the bees are
doing to each others.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

SiWolKe said:


> Hi Eduardo,
> I´m not able to open this link.


Sorry, here is an actual link for the paper and the summary: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00218839.1993.11101292

SUMMARY
"Five Apis cerana colonies in Newton hives in Allahabad, northern India, were used in the experiments. Female Varroa jacobsoni, in the reproductive phase, were transferred from drone brood into worker brood in the same colony (1), or into worker brood in another colony (2). Some introductions (3) involving dead mites washed with ethanol and pentane (and therefore odour-free) were also carried out. Mites collected from a single Apis mellifera colony were introduced into some A. cerana brood (4), and some ‘sham inoculations’, involving the opening and closing of brood cells without the introduction of a mite, were made (5). After 5 days, in (1) and (5) only about 10% of manipulated cells were found empty. In (1) and (3), in addition, about 40% of cells had been opened, the mites removed, and the cells, still containing pupae, resealed. About 50% of manipulated cells were untouched. The percentage of empty cells was much higher in (2), and even higher in (4). The results indicate that differences in hygienic behaviour are due to scent cues adhering to the mites. The incidence of this type of behaviour in the Apis mellifera colony was extremely low. The significance of the differential hygienic behaviour observed in the tolerance of V. jacobsoni infestations is discussed."


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Thanks, Eduardo.
very interesting!

Beepro:


> Sometimes they look quite aggressive flipping under this individual bee like
> it has cancer or something on.


I`m seeing this, too, but I´m not sure if it is defense or allogrooming.
Next time I want to look at a bee being treated like that.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I've seen bees getting a very thorough going over by others when it gets hot and they are milling about near the entrance. I should gather up some worked over bees and put them through an alcohol wash to see if anything is on them.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Without a second cup of coffee, I need to lay that down in tabular form to make any sense of it. It is Saturday morning and I don't want to work that hard just yet. To RENT the actual paper, you need to fork over money.

I get the gist of it. Sure wish I could see the result for the bees and mites I have ... A. mellifera and V. destructor.



Eduardo Gomes said:


> Sorry, here is an actual link for the paper and the summary: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00218839.1993.11101292
> 
> SUMMARY
> "Five Apis cerana colonies in Newton hives in Allahabad, northern India, were used in the experiments. Female Varroa jacobsoni, in the reproductive phase, were transferred from drone brood into worker brood in the same colony (1), or into worker brood in another colony (2). Some introductions (3) involving dead mites washed with ethanol and pentane (and therefore odour-free) were also carried out. Mites collected from a single Apis mellifera colony were introduced into some A. cerana brood (4), and some ‘sham inoculations’, involving the opening and closing of brood cells without the introduction of a mite, were made (5). After 5 days, in (1) and (5) only about 10% of manipulated cells were found empty. In (1) and (3), in addition, about 40% of cells had been opened, the mites removed, and the cells, still containing pupae, resealed. About 50% of manipulated cells were untouched. The percentage of empty cells was much higher in (2), and even higher in (4). The results indicate that differences in hygienic behaviour are due to scent cues adhering to the mites. The incidence of this type of behaviour in the Apis mellifera colony was extremely low. The significance of the differential hygienic behaviour observed in the tolerance of V. jacobsoni infestations is discussed."


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

lharder said:


> I've seen bees getting a very thorough going over by others when it gets hot and they are milling about near the entrance. I should gather up some worked over bees and put them through an alcohol wash to see if anything is on them.


That better describes what I've seen. There are usually several on the outside that wander around and clean. It doesn't appear aggressive, more like the bees are getting a thorough "pat down."


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

lharder said:


> I've seen bees getting a very thorough going over by others...


observing the same behavior at the entrances of my hives as well.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

lharder said:


> I've seen bees getting a very thorough going over by others when it gets hot and they are milling about near the entrance.


Like that? From today, 32°C. Carniolan.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Hard to tell from the photo. I can post a video later to show what I'm seeing. On my mobile, can't figure out how to post video from phone. I can't even guarantee what I'm seeing is grooming, just not sure what else it would be. These aren't grooming lines of bees, just feral captures, so other than my documenting the behavior, I have no proof.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Here is the behavior I am witnessing:

https://youtu.be/Xss-JE8wfSM


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Looks almost gentle!
Can you do your filming a little longer next time if possible, Jeff?


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

SiWolKe said:


> Looks almost gentle!
> Can you do your filming a little longer next time if possible, Jeff?


Apologies,I caught this bee mid-"grooming." I had to get my phone going and by the time I started recording, she was pretty much done. Maybe was 4 more seconds of the same behavior before I captured it. This was recorded a couple of weeks ago. I will try and get some better footage at some point. Again, just guessing this is even true grooming behavior as it relates to varroa. I honestly have no idea. To me, it seemed like the bee grooming was checking just in case, as if something might have been slightly off. Perhaps smell.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

SiWolKe said:


> Beepro:
> 
> I`m seeing this, too, but I´m not sure if it is defense or allogrooming.
> Next time I want to look at a bee being treated like that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU9Ot_oPyZQ


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

I have seen this behavior multiple times in my hives, but always at the entrance. The "receiver" of the action almost always has her back tucked in. I believe its robber being inspected and harassed. Often the receiver flies away in a hurry. And I did see other type of robber treatment such as pulling by legs, pulling / biting by the wings, balling etc.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Stephenpbird said:


> A lecture given by Ricarda Kather at the National Honey Show 2013 entitled "Ghosts in the Hive - Varroa's life cycle inside a Honey Bee Colony". A very interesting talk about Varroa ability to mimic the smell of a honeybee during the different stages its growth
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE4emUMyOWs


I watched that video. I feel like the wedding guest in the _Rime of the Ancient Mariner_.
"He went like one that hath been stunned, 
And is of sense forlorn: 
A sadder and a wiser man, 
He rose the morrow morn."


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Thanks, bee pro.

It`s allogrooming I`m seeing on my entrance boards then.


> Often the receiver flies away in a hurry.


That`s not the case with what I observed. They do the grooming as a group, it needs some time and afterwards the "victim" cleans herself and walks in.

If they defend they take the "victim", fly away with her and throw her off into the grass or down the entrance board.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The flying bees at the entrance is only meet and greet.
The real grooming is like more than 2-5 minutes at a time. My vid footage was
on the right side of the hive box wall. I just tilted the cam to capture the actions. 
Many of these allogrooming are inside the hive while on the frames. Just observed another
one this morning on a hive check. Now I know which queen has it for the upcoming season grafting.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> The real grooming is like more than 2-5 minutes at a time.


What I see is just like that or even longer.
I don`t know if the "receivers" are foragers or nurse bees, I have to observe better. Seems to me they come from inside, too. Maybe the new foragers to be.
I have to take my video camera along more.

One hive was visited by foreign bees (primorski) I thought they would rob, but they included them. Old queen is still laying like before, no honey robbed, but much more bees inside.
The watchers groomed them for minutes, afterwards the foreigners went in. Now they are foraging for them. They look different than mine, so I recognize them.
Maybe they brought mites and were groomed.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

SiWolKe said:


> Like that? From today, 32°C. Carniolan.
> 
> View attachment 27651


Its hard to see with the photo, but yes. Not all the bees are grooming each other but there is usually a couple. I've also observed bees lined up to groom on something prominent away from the hive. I joked with the research team that they might not find any mites on the mite boards as any bee with a mite leaves the hive to groom it off. But yes there were mites on mite boards when I packaged them off to ship them. Still don't have my mite drop vs alcohol wash mite count data.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

No hive without mites.
My mentor said: don`t count mites. Look after virus sickness. There could be few mites but many bees with DWV. If you see more than 5 bees with DWV on your combs, something will happen and you have to act on it.
So far, I have almost no DWV but I had one hive with CPV which had to be eliminated. Inbred old queen.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I'm going to assume I don't have allogroomers based on what I'm seeing and being told here, or haven't witnessed it at least. The behavior I'm seeing doesn't last all that long, maybe 30 seconds at the max, and appears just as in the video I linked. Perhaps these bees are just doing contraband checks. Who knows, lol.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

When I have seen active mite grooming, it is inside the hive. The method is similar to the linked video, but the bees doing it are house bees, not guard bees.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> When I have seen active mite grooming, it is inside the hive. The method is similar to the linked video, but the bees doing it are house bees, not guard bees.


Interesting. Do you see this because you operate an observation hive?
Or are they doing it while you pull a frame?


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

I too am not so sure this is allogrooming behavior. My carnica bees do this and they die if I don't use a treatment (I have lost enough colonies without treating to know treatment free doesn't work for me).


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

Riverderwent said:


> "A sadder and a wiser man,
> He rose the morrow morn."


“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Stephenpbird said:


> I too am not so sure this is allogrooming behavior. My carnica bees do this and they die if I don't use a treatment (I have lost enough colonies without treating to know treatment free doesn't work for me).


I´m sorry about that, Stephen.
I see the mites as "friends" to help me select but I don`t know what the future brings. Maybe I will change my attitude but the wonderful people here give me hope and courage to go on.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Fusion_power said:


> When I have seen active mite grooming, it is inside the hive.


I'm pretty sure that those on the landing boards are guards giving 'drifters' a good once over. If you've got them doing it in-house you may have something.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The future is keep on splitting and making more resistant queens!
The real test comes when you have 13 colonies that are tf. By then
you should have something that will survive after the crash.
This season I have successfully incorporated the allogrooming, vsh and
survivor queens into my apiary. It is part of my planning all along. In the future I will
use some mite biting bees too. Already line up a source for those queens.
Let's see if they will survive first or how many hives will survive after this winter. 

My question is for those of you going tf, what tf strategies do you use to maintain your hive population?
I know splitting or give them a brood break is the common one. Any others to use?


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

beepro said:


> The future is keep on splitting and making more resistant queens!
> The real test comes when you have 13 colonies that are tf. By then
> you should have something that will survive after the crash.
> This season I have successfully incorporated the allogrooming, vsh and
> ...


I have had no strategy up to this point. I started with 3 colonies, conservatively split up to 9 this 3rd year. I don't see my strategy changing much unless I start seeing major problems. Honestly, before I started reading the doom and gloom involved in TF beekeeping, I was blissfully unaware of the problems others were having trying to incorporate it. My strategy for the most part is let the bees figure it out. I have utilized requeening in the past with problem colonies, fed some my first year, very little this year. Bees are alive and well. My strategy is no strategy past normal maintenance.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

beepro said:


> The future is keep on splitting and making more resistant queens!
> The real test comes when you have 13 colonies that are tf. By then
> you should have something that will survive after the crash.
> My question is for those of you going tf, what tf strategies do you use to maintain your hive population?
> I know splitting or give them a brood break is the common one. Any others to use?


2014 strategy: Went cold turkey. Crash. Sugar treatment didn`t save them. 1 hive (mistake of new beekeeper)
2015 strategy: got some information about tf on internet. Purchased mite resistant tf stock, 4 hives with some genetic diversity. Made splits. Wanted to stop feeding sugar but it was not possible. 
checked every week to learn but stressed the bees.
2016 strategy: stronger splits. Left honey, took surplus. Did less work not to disturb the brood nests. Left wax "ladders"or cells build for bee`s sleeping at the inner sides of box and on top of frames. Fed with honey when necessary.
Main problem was lost queens on mating flight and bad weather. Donated egg combs and capped brood.
2017 strategy: leave brood nests mostly alone if possible. One super with honey stores on top throughout the year. Allow swarming, use bait boxes. Exchange the locations of hives to allow the foragers of resistant colony to teach the 
bees of colony with crisis the right behavior if needed

I have to adapt to the bees because of our area problems. No big production hives possible, maybe.

We have a discussion in our forum about splitting right now. There are some people who have some success with colonies of normal size and a swarm every spring. 
They say that varroa breeds more in splits because the bees are under pressure to develop the normal colony size. Too much brood.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

"They say that varroa breeds more in splits because the bees are under pressure to develop the normal colony size. Too much brood."

In this case I will take out the first cap brood frame with the mites in them into
another queen less with a virgin nuc hive. This is one way to manipulate the mite population.
I see you point about the big production hives issue. The same here. 
Lucky for some keepers not have to anything just to let them survive on their own. Someday I
will get to that level.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

SiWolKe said:


> They say that varroa breeds more in splits because the bees are under pressure to develop the normal colony size. Too much brood.


From my own observations, this makes a lot of sense. My strongest hives are my longest established, and I've never done true splits. Usually 4-5 combs and the original queen in a nuc. My nucs have always been slow to start, usually requiring a full year to become well established. Most of my bees could be described as slow and steady growing. They have decent stores, to which I leave most of every year. Defnitely not production hives, but enough for me and friends. The couple of boomers I've had turned out to have horrible problems, so I'm ok with slow and steady.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

I had this camera boot time issue this morning. There at last were a couple of bees doing the forage direction waggle dance, but they quit before I could get the camera running. I see "tremble dance" all the time, but the waggle dance I rarely see on frames pulled for inspection.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

beepro said:


> My question is for those of you going tf, what tf strategies do you use to maintain your hive population?
> I know splitting or give them a brood break is the common one. Any others to use?


IMO: flood the area several miles around you with treatment free genetics.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

beepro said:


> My question is for those of you going tf, what tf strategies do you use to maintain your hive population?
> I know splitting or give them a brood break is the common one. Any others to use?





heaflaw said:


> IMO: flood the area several miles around you with treatment free genetics.


I have done that (flood the area) multiple times unintentionally and serendipitously by having had very promising cutouts from long established feral colonies abscond immediately after being placed in a hive. These colonies being pushed into the woods complements the survivor genetics that are in my various apiaries. Other things that I do are keep entrances small, use all handmade cedar boxes, and allow natural brood breaks by not feeding sugar syrup.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Riverderwent said:


> allow natural brood breaks by not feeding sugar syrup.


I think that's a huge benefit. I avoid it as much as possible, which is 90% of the time. Before I really understood brood breaks, I pinched a very nice queen of a hive that had shut down brood before the dearth hit last year. My other bees followed suit a couple of weeks later. Was a head slapping moment of realization.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

This about brood brakes I see, too.
I had one queen 2 years old which stopped laying after the workers filled broodnest with honey. They had enough space inside and built no swarm cells. I thought they would swarm and checked for queen cells. After 10 days the queen started laying again. That was in august and we had a very good flow.
They know what to do.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> They know what to do.


They do if they are reasonably locally adapted and somewhat feral.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Riverderwent said:


> They do if they are reasonably locally adapted and somewhat feral.


These were not locally adapted but somewhat feral, the queen AMM came from canary island where she was field bred. The beekeeper has 350 hives and is treatment free since over 15 years.
He has a natural management.
I think it was not her decision but the workers decided. Maybe they smell the infestation level?

This leads to some musings: if introduced queens are not locally adapted, what about the workers coming out of her eggs? 
How much time or brood cycles are necessary?

I think she is still not adapted because she`s the only queen which bred through winter without brood brake.
But I imagine the workers are.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

I would think that "locally adapted" label should consider where the queen was mated, and against what gene pool.

A queen bought already mated from some distant location, I would not expect to be locally adapted.

A virgin queen from another area, but brought in and mated against local drones, might have locally-adapted offspring. That assumes that the local drones are adapted, with some record of local survival. Mating against package bees from elsewhere does not count.

What I consider locally-adapted is queens with interesting genetics (in our case, started from VSH), but cross-bred thru many generations locally by a breeder selecting for strong desired traits. In our case, the breeder is working toward treatment free, but also high honey production. I don't think the bees are properly adapted unless there has been some selection to the breeding, although you could certainly get lucky. Getting lucky is, after all, the prerequisite for selection.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Phoebee said:


> A virgin queen from another area, but brought in and mated against local drones, might have locally-adapted offspring.


I have found this to be the case from open mated daughters of non "native" resistant queens. It has the added benefit of infusing some diversity. It's something I will most likely continue. I often offer to trade resistant queens with people for this very reason.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think some of the "locally adapted" ideas is factually a lot of _hocus pocus _ It sounds profound but is it really? There are differences in some basic habits related to delaying broodup till nectar or pollen is coming in and shutting down laying if the flow drops off. If bees that do well in a set of climatic conditions and are typical of say Carniolan or could be Italian type why would it matter whether she was bred in California, Hawaii, Georgia, or Ontario as long as she was of the same typical habits?

I think what a lot of people are doing is using queens with habits suitable for the almonds timing or regions of very little winter, etc., and expecting them to deal well with long dry spells, long winters , late springs etc.

Probably the local conditions after a while will cause a drift if you have mongrels, and eventually select for a higher percentage of bees that lean toward the more successful type but can't the buyer, if he knows what he needs, and the seller knows what he has, simply specify type? I see some queen producers who list several types? I dont think the bees are learning what to do in certain conditions; they either breed successfully or they dont.

Maybe it is just semantics but I dont buy adaptation; selected by local conditions? yes!


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Locally adapted may not all be the bees doing. They're a petri dish full of other organisms, including symbionts and potential diseases. So the adaptation of those other factors is in the brew as well.

I don't know that the role of micro-RNA influencing intestinal flora has been studied in bees yet. It has been in higher organisms and I expect it will be in bees. In many higher organisms it has been found that the body can signal beneficial bacteria to attach at particular sites in the intestine. How fast that mechanism adapts I don't know. Selection for a particular area may not be in part a matter of the bees signaling the right symbionts, and those symbionts being right for the local conditions. There is a rich brew of genes and symbionts out there, so adaptation must be, at least in part, encouraging the mix that does best in your area thru selection. 

In other words, breed from the best survivors. The rest, say goodbye to. Nothing new or profound here. No, it is not hocus-pocus. We're not creating a new local species. We're just picking what works in our area, out of a rich diversity of bee genetics. Lacking native honeybees adapted over millions of years, we instead have genes from all the European races, plus some really hardy, if behaviorally undesireable, African genes. 

Personally, I'm happy that AHB don't seem to adapt well to the mid-Atlantic climate.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Once a certain desirable or undesirable characteristics got bred into a certain specie of bees, their
off springs will carry on this traits. When you brought in queens from this operation, for example the
mite biting bees, then the daughters need to adapt to your local environment as well. The queen probably
cannot adapt to your area yet. i.e. Either a snowy or rainy climate. If the queen is a mutt queen, say ItaliansXRussians then
there is a chance that she will adapt to your warmer environment. But if you import the pure Cordovan to the Caucasian Mountains then the rainy and cold weather there she may not be able to adapt to the local environment. What I'm saying is
that the daughters mated with the local drones is a mutt and should be able to adapt better including her off springs too.
That is why I have a simple rule to graft the daughters to mate with the local drones. When the mother queen cannot make it, I still have some mutt genetics to work with in the selection process. Eventually, after the 4th generation they will became the mutts anyways. Don't you agree?
In the case of the AMM queen, I would graft some daughters to see which one will have the desirable characteristics that you
want to keep. I had tried it on the allogrooming, vsh and Cordovan queens before. Happy with the results so far!


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I think that works beepro.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> In the case of the AMM queen, I would graft some daughters to see which one will have the desirable characteristics that you
> want to keep.


I already see that with the daughters. These made the brood brake. So far the desirable traits stayed, too. They are even better with one or two hives.
This supports the theories of beepro.

Still I think bees, the worker bees, learn much.
I think they are sensible to their surroundings. Smells, temperature...the queen, which is in hive almost her whole life, maybe has other responsibilities.

For example they know about which plants to visit. If the genetics would be so strong, they would search for the plants the queen comes from. These are different in this case.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

crofter said:


> I think some of the "locally adapted" ideas is factually a lot of _hocus pocus _ It sounds profound but is it really? There are differences in some basic habits related to delaying broodup till nectar or pollen is coming in and shutting down laying if the flow drops off. If bees that do well in a set of climatic conditions and are typical of say Carniolan or could be Italian type why would it matter whether she was bred in California, Hawaii, Georgia, or Ontario as long as she was of the same typical habits?
> 
> I think what a lot of people are doing is using queens with habits suitable for the almonds timing or regions of very little winter, etc., and expecting them to deal well with long dry spells, long winters , late springs etc.
> 
> ...


The phrase "locally adapted" is used by many biological scientists as a shorthand way to refer to the natural genetic selection process that occurs over multiple generations to select for fitness within a particular geographical area. With honey bees it is multifactorial and not limited to temperature or even temperature and daylight length alone. Even those factors, taken individually, are not binomial, but rather are a continuum and, considering both, are not even one dimensional. Selecting for fitness can be done to some extent in other similar climatic regions naturally or even in dissimilar climatic regions through husbandry with great effort. But matching all identified factors would be challenging and matching all unidentified material regional distinctions would not be knowable and would be random at best. 

These regional distinctions can be easily overemphasized. They can also be limited in effectiveness by limitations in the pool of genes available in a given area bearing on the regional distinctions and by genetic bottlenecks affecting adaptability to both existing conditions and future changes within the specific region, such as resistance to a newly introduced invasive pest or disease. But I would not call them hocus pocus or superficially profound and without significance.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Duplicate.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Yes, "hocus pocus" has too strong a negative connotation. I do think that too specialized becomes a weakness by reducing flexibility. Fortunately bees have a strong inclination to preserve genetic diversity with their mating methods.

At the opening of this thread it was observed that there might be some common traits that appear strong in bees that survive mites and other forms of environmental stress. Many of the traits mentioned seem to describe bees leaning to Carniolan and Russian traits and away from Italian.

Could it be that the Italian bee is the one that has been super adapted to a set of conditions and that those genetics have been brought to the majority by mass production/selection that is really hard driven by pollination demands. 

Perhaps what is, on the fringes, now being referred to as locally adapted bees, is just another way of saying deselecting some of the overemphasized traits presently making up the majority of US bee populations.

I notice Fusionpower is planning bringing in Buckfast queens to augment his selection program.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Yes, I have the Buckfast queens in hives and am starting queen rearing from them. I want to combine some of the better Buckfast traits with the mite tolerance traits. It will be a long hard slog to do so, but I believe it is one of the viable paths to improve production and reduce swarming.

I disagree slightly re the mite tolerance traits. I found a queen with A.M. Mellifera traits that had good mite resistance and used her as the beginning of my mite resistant line. I don't know if Italians are inherently handicapped when dealing with varroa.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Eventually the darker Italians will inherited the mite fighting ability and pass on to
the next generation and so on. One such operation raised the vsh mated with the 
Cordovan-Italians. There are Italians and carnis queens with the vsh traits as well. 
You just have to find the right bee combination to keep. I have had the mite resistant
Italians before but was too busy making splits and queens that I did not know how to 
preserve this trait. Now I have to start from the beginning of this journey again. Still have
hopes to find the right bee combination. i.e. A.I. the mite biting drones to the Cordovan virgin queen.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Frank, good form. Well put.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Fusion_power said:


> Yes, I have the Buckfast queens in hives and am starting queen rearing from them. I want to combine some of the better Buckfast traits with the mite tolerance traits. It will be a long hard slog to do so, but I believe it is one of the viable paths to improve production and reduce swarming.
> 
> I disagree slightly re the mite tolerance traits. I found a queen with A.M. Mellifera traits that had good mite resistance and used her as the beginning of my mite resistant line. I don't know if Italians are inherently handicapped when dealing with varroa.


I am thinking especially about their robbing inclination being no asset for mite resistance and lack of brood breaks either. I dont know whether those are inevitably italian traits though. A trait that is strongly represented over a long period is much easier to foster than one that is not so common. It will be interesting to see if the offspring of your bees X buckfast, picks up the desirable traits of the buckfast or your bees subvert them. I think is is far from a predictable mathematical equation.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

So what are they doing?
Watch after the first 2 minutes when one bee came out and afterwards went in.

https://youtu.be/H6E13Prnqy0


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Are you talking about the agitated bee working over a second bee, as if either attacking it or trying to get something off of it? It is not quite a "bee tussle" rolling fight such as I've seen with bees entering the wrong hive. Also, a small yellowjacket was chased off, then we see one later that does not produce a strong defensive response.

The bee that was on the receiving end of the attention later goes in, and I think the same bee turns around and exchanges bee-kisses with another bee. This looks like a friendly exchange of scents or nectar.

I need to spend more time making videos of this sort of behavior. I would love to catch one prying a mite off.


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