# De-gassing?



## Eikel

I'm not sure this exactly addresses your question but ...... the byproducts of fermentation is CO2 and alcohol. The CO2 will convert to a gas and continue to build pressure if not vented, an airlock is the most popular way of venting while preventing oxidation of the mead. Failure to relieve pressure can cause the "stopper/cork" to be blown out with significant pressure or the container to split/explode. If you fail to maintain a CO2 barrier between the atmosphere and the mead, oxidation will occur and ruin the mead. Airlocks are normally added during the secondary fermentation process. Search for fermentation airlock or visit your local brewing supply store, they're a great source of information and would love to have your business.


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## FlowerPlanter

I think he means removing the gas. Such as by mixing vigorously while fermenting or with a vacuum pump after it's done.

Maybe someone with more experience will chime in on the best time to do each and if it makes a difference.


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## Hops Brewster

Degassing is done at the end of fermentation to remove the dissolved CO2 in order to obtain a dead-still wine/mead (no bubbles). Methods are to agitate (stir vigorously) or use a vac-pump to vacuum out the gas.
If you want sparkling mead or wine, of course you won't do this.

http://winemakersacademy.com/﻿when-often-degas-wine/


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## ColoradoRaptor

JHill said:


> I read about degassing but have a few questions.


Depending on who you ask, you can end up with different answers. 



JHill said:


> When is this done?


For me it's done the first 3 to 5 days of primary fermentation. I do this because oxygen is important during initial fermentation, it promotes a fast and healthy fermentation as well as keeping the must from becoming overly acidic. 



JHill said:


> Is it necessary?


I would have to say no because some people don't do it at all and end up with good mead though it usually has to age longer. 



JHill said:


> How is it done?


You can do it with a spoon if you are using buckets but you will need a degassing tool if you are using carboys. There are several types of degassing tools but all are attached to a drill and can be purchased at your local brew supply. 



JHill said:


> What is the purpose?


I mentioned this above, it adds needed oxygen to the must which promoted a healthy fermentation and helps keep acidity from getting to high. 



JHill said:


> Thanks for your help.


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## JHill

Thanks Colorado


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## Ravenseye

I started a 3 gallon BOMM yesterday morning. About an hour ago I attached one of those stirring tools to an old battery drill and gave it a spin in the bucket. I had foam to the brim in about 20 seconds. Looking good!


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## ColoradoRaptor

Ravenseye said:


> I started a 3 gallon BOMM yesterday morning. About an hour ago I attached one of those stirring tools to an old battery drill and gave it a spin in the bucket. I had foam to the brim in about 20 seconds. Looking good!


LOL... yeah, you need to degas slowly at first otherwise you will have a CME "catastrophic mead explosion" ask me how I know.... let's just say I was cleaning mead up from everywhere ......


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## Vance G

The C02 building up in the must is in itself antimicrobial and to an extent slows down fermentation. When I degass, I DO NOT want to add more oxygen after the first three days of the fermentation. continuing oxygenation after three then is not necessary and can be damaging.to flavor. I stir a full carboy with a long wand does the job. I do it to speed fermentation and would do it before bottling if I ever bottled soon after the fermentation had taken place. My mead making outstrips my mead drinking so things don't get bottled until long after the C02 has dissipated. Now the first three days, I will put a new clean airstone and an aquarium pump on my mead to really build up the yeast population. After three days we have enough yeast and O2 only builds more instead of building alcohol.


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## ColoradoRaptor

Vance G said:


> The C02 building up in the must is in itself antimicrobial and to an extent slows down fermentation. When I degass, I DO NOT want to add more oxygen after the first three days of the fermentation. continuing oxygenation after three then is not necessary and can be damaging.to flavor. I stir a full carboy with a long wand does the job. I do it to speed fermentation and would do it before bottling if I ever bottled soon after the fermentation had taken place. My mead making outstrips my mead drinking so things don't get bottled until long after the C02 has dissipated. Now the first three days, I will put a new clean airstone and an aquarium pump on my mead to really build up the yeast population. After three days we have enough yeast and O2 only builds more instead of building alcohol.


I am not going to say your method is wrong because that is what works for you. I will say however that knowledge of mead making was nearly lost and that one of the bigest misconceptions surrounding it is that todays mazer has approached mead making from a vintners point of view. Mead is NOT wine as we know wine though many treat it as such and ferment it the same. Mead is truly a different animal just as beer is different from wine. Just because the modern mazer creates his meads in the same fassion that vintners create their wines does not mean that is the how you are supposed do it. Is it a logical approach? Certainly it is a logical approach to treat your mead like wine because they are simular. A foolish approach to mead is from a closed mind! I have been fermenting beverages since the mid 80's and mead has been my favorite by far. This is not to say I know everything because I most certainly don't but I was foolisly lead to believe that mead was wine and had to treated as such. I have since researched the making of mead and learned that many of todays mazers have gotten their information from vintners. The true art of mead making was perfected by the Vikings and Celts not the Romans! The Romans were and are vintners not mazers! I make some really good mead that has been enjoyed by many others and my approach is a more ancient one with the exception of modern equipment. This is only one perspective and the one I have and I am not alone in it either. Good luck


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## Vance G

I am glad you allow me my ignorance. How gracious of you.


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## ColoradoRaptor

Vance G said:


> I am glad you allow me my ignorance. How gracious of you.


LOL...... sorry, I do realize that I am preaching and beating a dead horse so to speak. I am making some of the best mead in my life now that I am taking a slightly different approach. I was just wanting to share. Happy fermenting sir! :lookout:


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## Arnie

ColoradoRaptor said:


> I am making some of the best mead in my life now that I am taking a slightly different approach.


What's your new approach? Thanks.


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## ColoradoRaptor

Arnie said:


> What's your new approach? Thanks.


I used to make mead just like wine. It was good but I wanted to learn more about mead and how it was made hundreds of years ago. So, in the process of reading books, searching Google and talking with others I learned that mead is different from wine just as beer is different from wine and mead. I have traditionally used champagne/wine yeast for my mead and it works great if you are making honey wine. I have found that other yeast work well and yet others work better! Take Wyeast 1388 Belgian Strong Ale yeast, it works better than any champagne yeast I used in the past! It ferments fast, clean, is less temperature sensitive when it comes to producing fusils and has produced ABV's of 20%. Oxygen, I used to do everything I could to keep oxygen away from my must/mead.... Now I degas every day sometimes twice a day vigorously for the first 3 to 5 days. This promotes healthy yeast that ferment the crap out of the sugars in my must! I step feed nutrients roughly every 12 hours or 1/3 sugar breaks. I use Fermaid K an O, DAP and K2CO3. 3 days before pitching I will have my yeast/GoFerm on a stir plate so it is healthy, happy and robust! I also NEVER boil or heat my honey! After the first 3 to 5 days I leave it alone and monitor the CO2 rate until it slows to about a bubble a minute then rack into a carboy with a waterless airlock. There it stays until it clears. I have had clear yummy mead in as little as a month! I don't like preservatives and avoid sulfites almost completely! I have been experimenting with historical meads like Gruit and Sima. I have had some amazing mead as well as a few failures but all in all my mead making has improved dramatically!!


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## Tenbears

Okay There are a great many ways to do things and the results can be varied. But some things remain constant and that being science. No matter how much belief is placed in a theory scientific fact rules supreme each time. I hear people make claims representation and implications as though they are facts and find that often they are not even possible let alone reasonable. The really sad thing is that whatever the reason they do it the results are major setbacks for those who take such statements as fact. 
First Off let me say that by definition Mead is Honey Wine!

Degassing during fermentation is not really degasing. it is infusing Oxygen to promote yeast multiplication. Yeast multiplies aerobically (in the presence of oxygen) and produces alcohol anaerobically (in the absents of oxygen) working yeast produces Co2 Although stirring active yeast will bring Co2 out of solution. It will NOT degas as the infused Oxygen will promote yeast multiplication which will result in the production of more Co2 than is displaces by stirring. 
Secondly. A given yeast can only produce alcohol by volume equal to it's alcohol tolerance. Alcohol tolerance is a given yeasts ability to survive in the presence of alcohol measured in percentage. Wyeath 1388 Has an alcohol tolerance of between 12 -13% with low fluctuation. Meaning no matter how much sugar you start with, how many times you sack, or how often you stir, dance or pray. you will never produce anything with 20%alcohol. If one doubts the tolerances follow the link to Wyeath's site and read it for yourself! https://www.wyeastlab.com/yeast-strain/belgian-strong-ale.

Neither does it make sense to arbitrarily add Potassium Carbonate ( K2CO3 ) which is 99.995 trace metals to your must prior to fermentation, then after fermentation add Acid blend to taste. It Just makes no sense! The more logical approach would be to ferment, taste and if acid sourness is present them add the K2CO3. If not then nothing need be done. We must remember that a degree of acidity is necessary for mouth feel as well as to preserve the mead.

Mead benefits greatly from aging. a mead that taste decent after fermentation will be twice as good after a year. However, one must be cautioned that as mead goes through the aging there is a point where it actually gets worse before it get better this generally occurs between 3 and 9 months. 

I have attended many seminars as well as private instruction from some of the worlds most notable masers. all seem to agree that the number one flaw found in meads is excessive oxidation mead is very sensitive to oxidation the results are that it can rapidly and greatly effect the meads quality. For this reason manually degassing meads to make them still is not recommended. Combine this with the fact that a quality mead requires sufficient aging the need to degas is a moot point, as degasing is a means of hastening the beverage to stillness which will be done naturally during aging.


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## JHill

Thanks Tenbears. As always a great explanation.


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## ColoradoRaptor

Well, I am glad I got set straight..... I didn't come here to argue or start a anything but it would seem someone has a problem with what I have to say. It doesn't matter to me if everyone agrees, likes or dislikes what I have shared because that is to be expected. There was a time when everyone believed the world was flat to. The science behind all of this is ever changing and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Just because there is a standard way to do things does not mean that there is not a better way to do it. I have done my research as well as talked with brewers, vintners and masers though they must not be as notable as those mentioned above. Let me also say this, Wine (from Latin vinum) is an alcoholic beverage made from fermented grapes! Correct me if I'm wrong here but honey has nothing to do with grapes and wine is a word used today like "Coke". When someone asks for a Coke they may actually want a Pepsi. Mead (/ˈmiːd/; archaic and dialectal "medd", "Meath or Meathe"; from Old English "medu",) is an alcoholic beverage created by fermenting honey with water, sometimes with various fruits, spices, grains, or hops. The alcoholic content ranges from about 8% ABV to more than 20%. The defining characteristic of mead is that the majority of the beverage's fermentable sugar is derived from honey. It may be still, carbonated, or naturally sparkling; dry, semi-sweet, or sweet. I really don't need to add definitions but there are those that may not know or just don't care to look it up themselves. If you have a set way of doing things that works for you then that is awesome! I used to think like Tenbears and believed there was only one way of doing things and all else was poppycock or senseless. I have since learned that I was being stubborn and closed minded because I have been doing this a long time. Don't take my word or anyone else's word for that matter DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH as I did. For starters if you are interested in learning something read this Doctors work on mead, he is also on Got Mead Forums https://www.denardbrewing.com And I also wanted to mention that I am enjoying a Muscot/Clover Pyment that had a SG 1.175 and a FG 1.025! Do the math, that is nearly 20%! Not exactly 20 but close enough for me and I used Wyeast 1388......???? Clearly I must be wrong because science says so.... or maybe my hydrometer is lying to me... either way it is sweet, strong and **** good


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## Gumpy

Never cared much for wine snobs who insist my fruit wines, some of which contain a good portion of honey, are not wine at all because they have no grape content. In the words of Col. Sherman T. Potter, "Horse Hocky!" To paraphrase something I just read, just because a word was defined in Latin does not mean there is not a better way to define the word.


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## ColoradoRaptor

Gumpy said:


> Never cared much for wine snobs who insist my fruit wines, some of which contain a good portion of honey, are not wine at all because they have no grape content. In the words of Col. Sherman T. Potter, "Horse Hocky!" To paraphrase something I just read, just because a word was defined in Latin does not mean there is not a better way to define the word.


For the record I am no wine snob, just the opposite actually! I have to agree with you, if you want to call your wonderful yummy alcoholic beverage honey wine because it is made with mostly honey, other fruits and it's like wine then you are not wrong for doing so. I was only making a point above. Sometimes technical terms get in the way of creativity??


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## Tenbears

ColoradoRaptor said:


> https://www.denardbrewing.com And I also wanted to mention that I am enjoying a Muscot/Clover Pyment that had a SG 1.175 and a FG 1.025! Do the math, that is nearly 20%! Not exactly 20 but close enough for me and I used Wyeast 1388......???? Clearly I must be wrong because science says so.... or maybe my hydrometer is lying to me... either way it is sweet, strong and **** good


 It is not a mater of Thinking Like Tenbears, Because as I stated in my last post "There are a great many ways to do things and the results can be varied." I use many techniques to brew mead and yes I do Research. What I do not do is spread unfounded inaccurate information as fact. No yeast produces alcohol greater than it's own alcohol tolerances. To profess that you are magically making it do so is simply wrong there is no other alternative. I have pointed this out in the past yet you persist. It is just that simple. I need not "do the math" because it does not add up! Starting SG 1.175 somewhere between 1.093 and 1.080 wyeath 1388 yeast dies 12 to 14 % alcohol in a sweet mead.(I have No doubt it would be good!) When alcohol exceeds the tolerance of a given yeast the yeast dies, period. You can try to explain it away however you like but facts are facts the yeast cannot live in the environment. Just as you could not live in an environment where the partial pressure of oxygen is greater than 29.4 PSI you would die from Oxygen toxicity. These are unescapable facts. And it is Wyeath that says so when they developed the strain!
BTW the term "By definition" is but a paraphrase often used to group items or similar things. like saying that old gal is by definition ugly. You really do not find her when you look it up!. Your reference "the bigest misconceptions surrounding it is that todays mazer has approached mead making from a vintners point of view" is also flawed Because quality meads can be made from sound wine making techniques, more so than hocus pouch do this do that add this to try build a better mousetrap. An understanding of every ingredient, supplement, compound and chemical introduced into the must, How they work and the role they play in the process is far better that mixing up a batch of whole hive mead saying that how the kelt's did it and proclaiming therefor it is better, is just foolhardy.
Do some of your own research as you profess to like to, read about yeasts how they work, how they develop, how they produce alcohol. Understand the different strains and how their fermentations affect the mead. Understand that although healthy ferments are a good thing, a fast ferment may not be as they tend to burn up the subtle tones of the honey.
Nothing personal I would respond similarly if you were telling people you give your bees bubble baths and they produce greater volumes of honey/ I would say it to my best friend. There is a big difference between varying techniques and insisting things that simply cannot happen!


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## Tenbears

Gumpy said:


> Never cared much for wine snobs who insist my fruit wines, some of which contain a good portion of honey, are not wine at all because they have no grape content. In the words of Col. Sherman T. Potter, "Horse Hocky!" To paraphrase something I just read, just because a word was defined in Latin does not mean there is not a better way to define the word.


I made mead for 20 years before I tried to make wine, it spawned from the countless melomels and pyments I began to make for variety. Anyone who thinks that fruit wine is not wine is clearly mistaken. I find it takes a greater understanding of the art than grape wines. I know dozens of people who go to the winery buy juice add yeast and ferment some pretty good wine. the same cannot be said of fruit wines. Even kit users often make a fruit wine that is merely passable. 
It takes a special knack and talent to ferment a fruit wine and not loose the fruit flavor in the process. Nothing like opening a bottle of peach wine (Which I believe to be the most aromatic) and the fellow sitting two seats away can tell you it is peach before you pour a glass.


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## Gumpy

Tenbears said:


> It takes a special knack and talent to ferment a fruit wine and not loose the fruit flavor in the process. Nothing like opening a bottle of peach wine (Which I believe to be the most aromatic) and the fellow sitting two seats away can tell you it is peach before you pour a glass.


I believe peach is the most difficult fruit to make wine from. I have yet to make one I am satisfied with. Nearly impossible to retain the flavor and aroma of the peach. I've pretty much given up on that one.

Now, apricots are another story, indeed!


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## Arnie

The Peach.
There is nothing like a perfectly ripe peach. The ultimate in the balance of sweet/tart, juiciness and texture. Beats out a perfect mango just by a hair...due to the mango's stringy nature.

Anyway, any hints on how to make a peachy-flavored peach mead would be welcome indeed!

The technique is what interests me. I care not if mead is honey wine or some other entity. HOW to make it better is my goal.

Case in point:
I made a cherry mead and described the technique I used. Tenbears advised me not to cook/stew the fruit next time. So, next I made a grape mead and did not cook the grapes......The result........ a much better flavor, even after a couple months when I sampled some of it. Thanks for that!


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## ColoradoRaptor

Tenbears said:


> It is not a mater of Thinking Like Tenbears, Because as I stated in my last post "There are a great many ways to do things and the results can be varied." I use many techniques to brew mead and yes I do Research. What I do not do is spread unfounded inaccurate information as fact. No yeast produces alcohol greater than it's own alcohol tolerances. To profess that you are magically making it do so is simply wrong there is no other alternative. I have pointed this out in the past yet you persist. It is just that simple. I need not "do the math" because it does not add up! Starting SG 1.175 somewhere between 1.093 and 1.080 wyeath 1388 yeast dies 12 to 14 % alcohol in a sweet mead.(I have No doubt it would be good!) When alcohol exceeds the tolerance of a given yeast the yeast dies, period. You can try to explain it away however you like but facts are facts the yeast cannot live in the environment. Just as you could not live in an environment where the partial pressure of oxygen is greater than 29.4 PSI you would die from Oxygen toxicity. These are unescapable facts. And it is Wyeath that says so when they developed the strain!
> BTW the term "By definition" is but a paraphrase often used to group items or similar things. like saying that old gal is by definition ugly. You really do not find her when you look it up!. Your reference "the bigest misconceptions surrounding it is that todays mazer has approached mead making from a vintners point of view" is also flawed Because quality meads can be made from sound wine making techniques, more so than hocus pouch do this do that add this to try build a better mousetrap. An understanding of every ingredient, supplement, compound and chemical introduced into the must, How they work and the role they play in the process is far better that mixing up a batch of whole hive mead saying that how the kelt's did it and proclaiming therefor it is better, is just foolhardy.
> Do some of your own research as you profess to like to, read about yeasts how they work, how they develop, how they produce alcohol. Understand the different strains and how their fermentations affect the mead. Understand that although healthy ferments are a good thing, a fast ferment may not be as they tend to burn up the subtle tones of the honey.
> Nothing personal I would respond similarly if you were telling people you give your bees bubble baths and they produce greater volumes of honey/ I would say it to my best friend. There is a big difference between varying techniques and insisting things that simply cannot happen!


You are quick to say what I have done is somehow impossible. I challenge you and anyone else here to prove me wrong! Don't just SAY i'm wrong because that my friend is older than the process of fermentation itself. I could say you are old and stuck in your ways refusing to try something new or different just because it is new or different. People like you have been proven wrong by pioneers time and time again! So here you go, try this and then tell me I am wrong: This recipe can be found here if you think I made this up https://www.denardbrewing.com/blog/post/Sweet-bomm/ And as I stated before, I will do so agian! I also did not believe it was possible but unlike you I actually tried it and guess what, it worked! 

Sweet Sack BOMM (Step Feed)

1. Start with 1 gallon Ozarka Spring water. 
2. Remove 1/2 cup water to compensate for smack pack volume. 
3. Draw line on jugs at current water level. 
4. Remove an additional4 cups of water from 1 gallon jugs.
5. Add OB honey to line. About 3 lbs. SG 1.12
6. Add 1/4 tsp DAP and 1/2 tsp of Fermaid K. 
-Add above again at 1.08 & 1.04.
7. Add 1/4 tsp K2CO3 (one time).
8. Shake to dissolve all honey. 
9. Add an activated pack of Wyeast 1388 yeast. 
-No water in airlock for 7 days.

Step Feeding
1. Once the gravity hits 1.000-1.005, add 2 ounces of honey. Don't try to dissolve it. It will dissolve naturally over a few days. This will increase the gravity by 0.005 points. 
2. Once the gravity hits 1.000, add another 2 ounces. 
3. Repeat until the yeast give up and hold gravity. 

Notes: Frequent, very small additions of honey will allow the yeast to push to maximum alcohol tolerance. The above method will push Wyeast 1388 to 19% ABV even though the published max is 13% ABV!

If you simply want a sweeter mead faster, add 8 oz of honey per addition. The yeast won't reach such a high ABV, but they will give up faster. More honey makes it more difficult for the yeast to continue fermenting. 

Post Fermentation (After FG stabilizes)
-Add 3 cubes American and 2 cubes of French Medium toast oak up to 4 weeks. 
-Add 1 vanilla bean for 2-4 weeks. 

by denardb on March 21, 2015


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## Ravenseye

Let's keep posts here quite civil please. There's always PM's for arguments.


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## Tenbears

ColoradoRaptor said:


> Sweet Sack BOMM (Step Feed)
> 
> 1. Start with 1 gallon Ozarka Spring water.
> 2. Remove 1/2 cup water to compensate for smack pack volume.
> 3. Draw line on jugs at current water level.
> 4. Remove an additional4 cups of water from 1 gallon jugs.
> 5. Add OB honey to line. About 3 lbs. SG 1.12
> 6. Add 1/4 tsp DAP and 1/2 tsp of Fermaid K.
> -Add above again at 1.08 & 1.04.
> 7. Add 1/4 tsp K2CO3 (one time).
> 8. Shake to dissolve all honey.
> 9. Add an activated pack of Wyeast 1388 yeast.
> -No water in airlock for 7 days.
> 
> Step Feeding
> 1. Once the gravity hits 1.000-1.005, add 2 ounces of honey. Don't try to dissolve it. It will dissolve naturally over a few days. This will increase the gravity by 0.005 points.
> 2. Once the gravity hits 1.000, add another 2 ounces.
> 3. Repeat until the yeast give up and hold gravity.
> 
> Notes: Frequent, very small additions of honey will allow the yeast to push to maximum alcohol tolerance. The above method will push Wyeast 1388 to 19% ABV even though the published max is 13% ABV!
> 
> If you simply want a sweeter mead faster, add 8 oz of honey per addition. The yeast won't reach such a high ABV, but they will give up faster. More honey makes it more difficult for the yeast to continue fermenting.
> 
> Post Fermentation (After FG stabilizes)
> -Add 3 cubes American and 2 cubes of French Medium toast oak up to 4 weeks.
> -Add 1 vanilla bean for 2-4 weeks.
> 
> by denardb on March 21, 2015


 This is a sacked recipe. Sacking Is another ball of wax altogether from what you have been describing all along. NEVER in one of your numerous posts of "Your" technique. have you ever described or mentioned a sacked Mead. sacked recipes MAY produce higher alcohol. The recipe described MAY produce alcohol as high as 19% and 19 IS NOT 20 Up until I called you on it you have never mentioned sacking your meads 
"And I also wanted to mention that I am enjoying a Muscot/Clover Pyment that had a SG 1.175 and a FG 1.025! Do the math, that is nearly 20%!" Here is what you pasted earlier in this thread. That I not a sacked mead! you cannot start a sacked mead at 1.175. as stated in your post " The yeast won't reach such a high ABV, but they will give up faster. More honey makes it more difficult for the yeast to continue fermenting.*
Funny thing is you have been proclaiming this technique since you joined as the way to make " High Alcohol sweet mead" just look at post #13 here.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?332290-I-m-in-but-need-advice

So don't say "You are quick to say what I have done is somehow impossible" I have been very slow to say it Hoping you would take the hints and research it and make adjustments in your future proclamations. I never said you cannot make sacked meads that produce higher than tolerances than the yeast provides I was saying "YOUR" methods of doing it was Imposable as Noted in "Starting SG 1.175 somewhere between 1.093 and 1.080 wyeath 1388 yeast dies 12 to 14 % alcohol in a sweet mead" I am sure you will find another way to defend it so I am now done with this. You can lead a horse to water!


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## ColoradoRaptor

Tenbears said:


> This is a sacked recipe. Sacking Is another ball of wax altogether from what you have been describing all along. NEVER in one of your numerous posts of "Your" technique. have you ever described or mentioned a sacked Mead. sacked recipes MAY produce higher alcohol. The recipe described MAY produce alcohol as high as 19% and 19 IS NOT 20 Up until I called you on it you have never mentioned sacking your meads
> "And I also wanted to mention that I am enjoying a Muscot/Clover Pyment that had a SG 1.175 and a FG 1.025! Do the math, that is nearly 20%!" Here is what you pasted earlier in this thread. That I not a sacked mead! you cannot start a sacked mead at 1.175. as stated in your post " The yeast won't reach such a high ABV, but they will give up faster. More honey makes it more difficult for the yeast to continue fermenting.*
> Funny thing is you have been proclaiming this technique since you joined as the way to make " High Alcohol sweet mead" just look at post #13 here.
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?332290-I-m-in-but-need-advice
> 
> So don't say "You are quick to say what I have done is somehow impossible" I have been very slow to say it Hoping you would take the hints and research it and make adjustments in your future proclamations. I never said you cannot make sacked meads that produce higher than tolerances than the yeast provides I was saying "YOUR" methods of doing it was Imposable as Noted in "Starting SG 1.175 somewhere between 1.093 and 1.080 wyeath 1388 yeast dies 12 to 14 % alcohol in a sweet mead" I am sure you will find another way to defend it so I am now done with this. You can lead a horse to water!


LOL.... now it's another ball of wax ....... no pun intended I'm sure. I never claimed the technique as mine though I wish I could. I have never disguised anything here and anyone who knows mead that reads my posts should instantly realize that I am doing what's referred to as sacking mead. The problem I have is that you said " yeast cannot exceed it's rated alcohol tolerance" which is what I am disputing. Here are your exact words from post 15 "Secondly. A given yeast can only produce alcohol by volume equal to it's alcohol tolerance. Alcohol tolerance is a given yeasts ability to survive in the presence of alcohol measured in percentage. Wyeath 1388 Has an alcohol tolerance of between 12 -13% with low fluctuation. Meaning no matter how much sugar you start with, how many times you sack, or how often you stir, dance or pray. you will never produce anything with 20%alcohol. If one doubts the tolerances follow the link to Wyeath's site and read it for yourself!" So according to what you have been saying no matter what I do to include praying, dancing or sacking the yeast I use cannot exceed it's alcohol tolerance! That is what you have been telling me and everyone here. I am disputing that claim because I have exceeded the alcohol tolerance of Wyeast 1388 by following the methods of someone else who has done the same. Making mead is making mead though we call it Sack, Cyser, Pyment, Metheglin, Melomel, Acerglyn ect. when we use specific ingredients or methods. You can Sack mead in two different way as noted above in the recipe. I have done both and have exceeded the tolerance of 1388 doing it both ways. Did I reach 20% no but my math for that Pyment landed me at 19.67% so I rounded up because mathematically when rounding that's how you do it. I guess I could have said 19 or specifically 19.67 but 20 sounded great! I also have a wonderful Cyser that is only 16% that I have nearly finished off that was done in a sack manor. I have a Pyment Pinot Nior/Orange blossom that was a little over 16% going into secondary that is still fermenting and I am guessing will exceed 17%. My whole intent here is to share my knowledge and things I have learned not to make enemies or have arguments! So that is what I am doing sharing and defending myself at the same time. I am sorry we disagree but facts are fact and the proof is in my bottles. I truly wish you the best sir because no ill will was intended on my part! Happy fermenting :gh:


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## Ben Brewcat

Let's please keep difference of opinion as respectful differences. Beekeepers, just as mazers, can disagree without resorting to snark. 

I'll add that I think the degassing questions may have left me behind a bit. Degassing is just as the etymology would indicate: removal of dissolved gasses. Agitation of a fermenting mead cannot introduce oxygen except in an open fermentation as there isn't any in the air: it's been displaced long ago by the voluminous production of CO2. In an open ferment it could be possible, but few modern fermentations of mead are conducted this way and for good reason.


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## Tenbears

Just could not leave it go could you!


ColoradoRaptor said:


> LOL.... Alcohol tolerance is a given yeasts ability to survive in the presence of alcohol measured in percentage. Wyeath 1388 Has an alcohol tolerance of between 12 -13% with low fluctuation. Meaning no matter how much sugar you start with, how many times you sack, or how often you stir, dance or pray. you will never produce anything with 20%alcohol.:


 And I still Stand by that! A yeast that has a tolerance of 13% can only attain a maximum alcohol through sacking of 19% Quite often it peters out before that. Even your own links and posts support this!
see your statement in earlier pose "Notes: Frequent, very small additions of honey will allow the yeast to push to maximum alcohol tolerance. The above method will push Wyeast 1388 to 19% ABV even though the published max is 13% ABV!" NOTE I EVEN INCLUDED SACKING IN THE ORIGIONAL POST FOR THAT REASON!

Furthermore this statement is incorrect. "no but my math for that Pyment landed me at 19.67% " your math is WRONG! and I will tell you why. When figuring Alcohol By Volume (ABV) one must account for the alcohol's dilution of the solution. Water at 20C or whatever temperature your Hydrometer is calibrated at Gives a reading of 1.000 Hydrometers measure density of a given liquid! When solids are dissolved in a given liquid they make it denser as a result the hydrometer floats higher. HOWEVER, alcohol is thinner than water, Thus when alcohol is added to water it's density goes down. This is the reason dry meads quite often finish at 0.995 alcohol in the mead thins it out. When a must that starts at 1.175 finishes at 1.025 there is also alcohol in the mix that thin the mixture. As such that finished reading of 1.025 does not indicate that there is 25 points of sugar in the mead it is actually slightly higher. However, the amount of viscosity lost to the thinner alcohol is greater than the difference in residual sugar. Now, I am not going through the mathematical equation's to determine the factor used to determine actual ABV I will tell you this. To determine alcohol in such a situation one takes the starting SG and deducts the finishing SG. In this case it would be .150 then divides that by .00736. The factor produced by the aforementioned equations. Some use .0074 for the sake of convenience and I have had some tell me they use .0075. In any event figuring the aforementioned SG would result in an ABV of 20.38, 20.29, and 20.00 respectively. Again I reintegrate an impossibility.

In regard to this statement "anyone who knows mead that reads my posts should instantly realize that I am doing what's referred to as sacking mead" The same applies to someone who sacks mead as the starting SG is always well below the desired SG to achieve the targeted ABV. Anyone who actually sacks mead uses the proper terminology of Total SG and NOT Starting SG which is just as described the SG before sacking! As well studied as you claim to be one would think you would know that!:scratch: "I have done both and have exceeded the tolerance of 1388 doing it both ways" You may very well have But not to 20% Although it is possible to sack a mead to 20% and even higher it cannot be done with a yeast that has a tolerance of 13% one must start with something with a higher tolerances. even stimulated ferments intended to extend the meads productivity have their limits. These are facts!
If the proof is in the bottle send me one I will test it and tell you Exactly what the ABV is. Or I can tell you how to do it post fermentation even if the SG values are not known. But you probably already know how.


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