# Queen rearing kits



## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Hi all, gosh I went through withdrawal while this board was down!

Anyway, what is the thinking on the best source for queen rearing supplies? So far the Better Bee queen raising kit looks pretty good to me. 

http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=631

what do you all think? Or is it just as easy to buy the cups and stuff separate and try to make your own frames up?

Thanks!

david


----------



## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi David,

All of those kind of kits are an attempt to raise multiple queens without grafting. In theory, they purport to simplify the queen rearing process. But my experience indicates just the opposite. They in fact complicate the process and increase the risk of failure. And they cost alot!

Although grafting is often touted in beekeeping circles as a beemaster type skill, it is quite simple. And anyone can teach themselves to do it, in a few minutes, with a Chinese grafting tool. Search the board for 'Chinese grafting tool'. I'm sure I've written about using it here at beesource.

The more important aspect of preparing hives to start and raise the cells is the real engine in queen rearing. And they are the same regardless of whether the kits or the grafting tool is used.

For a few great queens, get a Chinese grafting tool, a few dozen JZ BZ plastic queen cups, a cheap plastic visor type magnifier, a headlamp and a queen rearing book, Laidlaws latest book is a great one. Taber and Morse also have some good material. And some interesting equipment has been designed by Harry Cloake.

Don't let all the methodology and terminology become confusing. Most of the methods written about, in queen rearing books, concern commercial queen rearing. Understand the timing dictated by bee biology and the principles the various methods use to get a hive ready to rear queens.

Also note how eggs, larva and cells are handled. Don't fry em or dry em.

For a few great queens, I would graft into the JZ BZ cups and push them directly into the face of a brood comb from a hive ready to raise queens. Forget queen restrictors, cell bars, grafting frames, etc.

If you're raising hundreds or more, build the frames, etc. And pick a commercial system that works with your schedule. Most beekeepers try a few and then come up with their own derivation. 

I've got one method that works exceptionally well, and can be used for a few queens or can be scaled up to raise thousands.

For raising thousands of queens, through an extended period, graft and use an incubator.

Everyone I've personally known, who has tried those kits, ends up buying queens rather than raising them.

Regards
Dennis


----------



## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Thanks Dennis, I did find some very good stuff, I will try to paste the links below:

You searched for keywords: 'Chinese grafting tool' | 4 matches found New Search 
Topic Date Forum 
chinese grafting tool March 09, 2004 Queen & Bee Breeding 
Queen rearing system July 04, 2003 Queen & Bee Breeding 
Grafting August 05, 2002 Queen & Bee Breeding 
BOOKS AND TOOLS February 04, 2002 Queen & Bee Breeding 


not sure if this will work.

I am off to search for grafting tool. 

Cheers!

david


----------



## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I'm still learning to use my Mann Lake Queen Rearing kit. They all seem to look pretty much alike.

One of my challenges came in getting the queen adjusted to the confinement. She seemed to need a couple of days before she was comfortable laying eggs. This will present a challenge in determining the age of your larvae. My goal is to transfer 24-hour old larvae.

The second challenge came when I moved the cups with eggs and newly hatched larvae to a cell-builder hive (which in my case were queenless). The bees started to make queen cells out of the cups with the larvae, but the ones with the eggs were ignored. I don't know what happened to the egg but they were just as clean as a whistle.

Fortunately, I can see through the bottom of the cell cup to see if that egg has hatched or if it is still an egg.

For the cups they build into queen cells, they seem to make for good queens. There is more for me to learn, however.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I bought geniune Jenter thinking it was the orginal and it would be easy to get supplies. Unfortunately it has not worked out that way. But it has worked well.

I buy queen rearing supplies here and there because of price and because sometimes only one place has what I want.


----------



## clintonbemrose (Oct 23, 2001)

And to think when I learned queen rearing we were taught the Hopkins method damaging combs to raise queens and now I graft. If I can do it anyone can. Every one should try it. I have taken to making my own cell cups from bees wax.
Clint


----------



## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

I am looking at the Mann Lake Catalogue, they have the chinese grafting tool for 3.25 and the jzbz push in cell cups 100 for 6.50. It looks like those push in cell cups are designed for a predrilled hole. Are those the same cups Dennis was referring to that you can push into brood comb? Looks like a lot less investment. And in reading the old posts and the ones here looks like the grafting might be a good way to go.

david


----------



## franc (Jan 7, 2003)

Ive never used the manufactured cell cups, what advantage would they have over the kelly wax cell cups ...they are about 9.00 a 1000.Do you let the bees clean the cups out first before grafting into them?


----------



## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

franc
i don't know, the catalogue says you should not reuse the plastic. if that is the case sounds like the wax from Kelly would be better...
david


----------



## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

If you are just buying a few plastic cups, go for the wide base rather than the push in kind. 

They can be used as is or given a very thin wax coating. I coat mine with a very thin layer of beeswax by using a food strainer, immersing them in hot wax and then shaking/rotating them in the stainer to remove any excess wax. The cups can be used again by cleaning them and giving them another coating.

Making beeswax cups is very easy to do. But they are much more fragile to handle when compared to the plastic cups, especially when harvasting the cells.

Plastic cups can easily be used with the JZ BZ cell protectors when requeening queenright hives or adding cells at the same time a split is made. I like the top bar(orange ones)best.

Regards
Dennis


----------



## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

I find them useful. At my age 50+ my eyes can not see the larva well enought to graft. I confine the queen for about 4 days. Then remove the larva that is in the cells to the cell builders. I can keep the queen in her confindment for 6 days and just keep taking out any shiny cells every day and replacing the cell cup with another. The shiney cells are the ones that have the youngest brood. I use the better bee queen rearing kit. I have no complaints and it works well for me. I raise all my queens that way from my AI queens. Get oooodles of queens and they are well taken care of by the builder colonies. I hope this helps. Have fun.
Dan


----------



## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Pro's / Con's / comments on different brands of graft-less systems?

Waya


----------



## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Pro's / Con's / comments on different brands of graft-less systems?

Are the parts interchangable with another's system?

added via edit: who sales them?

Waya

[ April 15, 2006, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: wayacoyote ]


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've only owned the Jenter but have looked at the Nicot. I haven't seen the others. The parts are NOT interchangable. I can fit the hair curler cages from the Nicot on the knurled yellow cell holders on the Jenter, and I like them better because they are much larger and don't risk breaking the cell or the cup loose. Otherwise they are not interchangable.

The Nicot actually has one less part involved as the cup and the plug are all one piece.

I think they all work fine.


----------



## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Thanks, Michael
What is the purpose of the Plug? Just to hold the cup onto the bar? If that's the case, then the Nicot takes a step out of it?

Also, where to find the Nicot system? 

Brushy Mtn has Jenter
Dadant has Ezi-Queen
Betterbee has "Cupularvae"
Kelley doesn't offer a graft-less system that I can find.

Waya


----------



## Big Ed (Jul 1, 2005)

Nicot is the same as Cupularvae. Nicot is the French manufacturer, and it says "Cupularvae" on the box itself.

Eddie


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What is the purpose of the Plug?

They all have to have something that simulates the bottom of the cell and the cup. In the case of the jenter it's two pieces in the case of the Nicot it's one. It's no harder or easier to work them.

>Just to hold the cup onto the bar?

The extra piece on the Jenter is just like you take the Nicot piece into two parts. It's just the bottom of the cell (the plug) and the cup.

>If that's the case, then the Nicot takes a step out of it?

Not really, just less parts.

>Also, where to find the Nicot system?

www.beeworks.com

>Betterbee has "Cupularvae"

Same thing.


----------



## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I really dislike the graftless system mainly talking about the Nicot system. One thing that is hard is to place the queen into the cell "bedroom" to lay. 

I have found grafting to be the best way to go. I use the plastic cups and prime them with a little water first. Do drops of warter but rather a drush of water. Makes the larvae come off easier. 


It is important to have a hive that has a lot of baby brood in it to be able to make queen cells.


----------



## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

More power to you, Chef! If grafting works for you, then I wish you loads of success. 

I'm just the opposite. The more I use my Nicot system, the more I like it. I haven't tried grafting, but never really wanted to learn. Yet in truth, these Nicot/Jenter are really graftless grafting methods. We just don't know we're grafting!

Grant
Jackson, MO


----------



## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Grant: I am just affraid to handle the queen and put her through the holw. any tricks on that?


----------



## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

What part of the jentner or nicot systems can be re-used? Aside from the laying box that is. I imagine the rollwe cages and the yellow cup holders.

Is this right?

Keith


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>One thing that is hard is to place the queen into the cell "bedroom" to lay.

You need to learn to catch a queen. If you can't catch her to put her the laying cage, then how will you catch one and mark her? Practice on drones. You'll get the hang of it. Buy a hair clip queen catcher if you don't trust your coordination.

>What part of the jentner or nicot systems can be re-used? Aside from the laying box that is. I imagine the rollwe cages and the yellow cup holders.

I reuse them all. I don't even clean them up anymore, other than peeling off the old queen cell and cocoon.


----------



## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Hey Chef, look in the catalogs for one of those clam-shell type queen catchers. They all seem to have them now, Brushy Moutain has my favorite, a clear, spring-loaded clamp that has grooved slots as big as a queen excluder. You can easily trap a queen on the comb, and when she moves up into the catcher, release the tension. Then hold the queen catcher over the egg laying unit (bedroom), and open it until the queen runs down into the unit.

Other catalogs sell a white queen catcher, and it's harder to tell if you have the queen. I always make sure she's moving up into the catcher before releasing the tension on the catcher.

The downside? This clear queen catcher is a bugger to find in tall grass if it falls out of your pocket. For that reason, I painted the handles with bright yellow paint.

Brushy Mountain has these on page 38 of the 2006 catalog. May I also recommend the queen marking tube just below it? Like you, I was deathly afraid of squishing my queens between my fingers. Both of these tools revolutionized my queen management.

I wish you loads of success!

Grant
Jackson


----------



## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Question: "What parts of the jentner or nicot systems can be re-used? Aside from the laying box that is. I imagine the roller cages and the yellow cup holders."

My thougthts: all of them. I even resuse the cell cups that the queen uses to lay eggs in. I carefully trim off the extra wax from the queen cell and simply reuse. I tried to clean them with really hot water. They swelled up and warped. Not one of my better ideas.

Some people think you need new cups for ever batch of eggs. Perhaps so, but I've not had that need. I reuse everything.

Hope all goes well.

Grant
Jackson, MO


----------



## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

If using a Jenter-type system to only raise a few, say 10 max, queens, should you Only put so many cups in the system so queen doesn't waste eggs, 
or can the cups be left in place for the workers to emerge, 
or do you just "waste" that brood if it isn't needed?

Waya


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If using a Jenter-type system to only raise a few, say 10 max, queens, should you Only put so many cups in the system so queen doesn't waste eggs

If you put less plugs in the bees will simply fill the bottom in with wax and the queen will lay in them anyway. Put them all in.

>or can the cups be left in place for the workers to emerge,

They can, but then you have cocoons in the way for next time sealing up the bottom of the cells. I tend to leave it out overnight, put the excluder back on and put it back in the hive for my next batch of queen. The bees clean out the larvae in the queen cage and the queen tends to lay on the rest of the comb which draws nurse bees there for my next batch of larvae.

>or do you just "waste" that brood if it isn't needed?

I waste it.


----------



## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Thanks, Michael,
That makes Tons of sense. I didn't even think of the cocoons. Great point.
Waya


----------



## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

I read some where that some folks put .22 spent shells in the holes they dont want the queen to lay in. 

What do you think Michael?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I read some where that some folks put .22 spent shells in the holes they dont want the queen to lay in. 

I think the queen will lay more doubles in the other cells.


----------



## RBar (Jun 22, 2005)

That process could backfire on you...
she may a single-shot queen...

Couldn' resist...

Roy


----------



## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I'm basically with the majority of you guys--put in the extra cups and let the queen lay. Then waste the extra eggs. Those wasted larvae won't make any difference to the rest of the hive.

IMHO, by the law of averages (whatever the heck that really is), that if you give her ten cups, she'll lay in six. Give her fifty and you'll be sure and get the ten you want.

Grant
Jackson, MO


----------

