# What's all the hubbub bub?



## icodebot (Apr 18, 2009)

When ever I read the commercial forums, it always makes me wonder. I think you guys are not making much money and I'd need a couple thousand hives to quit my day time job. Seriously some make it sound like a lot of beeks sell everything for 25 cents on the dollar.

Sometimes I think though the profits are played down to discourage others, so there is less competition. I mean why would anyone go online and talk about making good profits. That would be self defeating. 

I figure the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, and also that doing this for a living would take all the fun out of it.

These are just the first impressions of an outsider skimming over the commercial beekeeping forums for 1 month.

I do admire anyone making a living at beekeeping!


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

I would suspect that much of a persons success in beekeeping is about location (at the current time you location speaks to this directly). At one time a small topic throughly discussed in business/economic school was the idea of competitive advantage. During my year studying such stuff (yes decades ago) you could actually measure this relative $ advantage/position of folks who produced and sold the same stuff.

of course to a minor degree you are correct in that a lot of agriculture folks have no problem complaining in good times and bad (too much rain, too little rain...yada yada). 

to balance this statement somewhat... agricultural production is fraught with risk that you cannot control and oftertimes markets are far away so 'alternatives' can be extremely limited. this inability to effect outcome can be extemely frustrating for some folks (although some folks may actually thrive in this environment).

currently I would suspect??? that a lot of turely commercial folks are experiencing a bit of $ success mostly due to factors outside of their personal control. much like the biblical phase suggest (the first shall be the last) when the crunch comes these same success stories will quickly turn south. this ain't so much about some prophetic vision as about the conventional wisdom in regards to folks ability to adapt.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

*Comm. beekeeping is a dieing breed.*

I've been looking over the number of comm. beekeeper. The USA has lost about half of there comm. guy in the past 10 year. I would love to show someone the ropes and add some back in. 
It does cost a lot of money to get started. I was a luck one and just bought my parents out. I'm working the same equipment that many generation before me worked. If I had to rebuy everything that I have, it would probly cost me 180k. 
Talking those kind of dollars I would never get into it. 
I work four counties and I'm the only comm. beekeeper in those counties.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

A good portion of it is your determination of sucess. 40k a year for a lot of us is a hobby.....


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

*profit*

if you know what you are doing you can make a very good profit on it. The key is to know what you are doing and location, location, location. Every hive and every yard is a little and sometimes a lot different so you need to be very dynamic in your beekeeping in todays times. Back before mites and mono cropping it was much easier.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

We have been making an adequate living for 25 years, with no outside income besides the bees. There have been years where if we had to pay interest on _anything_ we would have gone in the hole. Agriculture is risky business. one better put money aside in the good years for the bad ones that WILL come. The past couple years have been exceptional with higher than normal honey prices and many commercials are benefiting from pollination fees as well. Will honey prices stay high? Will the high pollination fees continue. I don't know. If they don't I sure wouldn't want to be sitting on a mortgage on bee equipment that might not be in as big a demand as it is now.

Ron, yes commercial numbers are dwindling, but I think the number of colonies folks run is increasing. I also am seeing a lot of new blood coming in, encouraged by the current positive conditions. I see this as a positive thing and only hope they manage to ride the inevitable downturns, both individually and industry wide.
The thing about beekeeping is that it is HARD work and many aren't willing to put in the sweat and hours it takes. Those that do can make it work.
Sheri


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Anything Ag related is a challenge in making money. It's not like other businesses where you are dependant only on a market. Restraunts, clothing, professional, all depend on the market to make money. Yes, you need good food, decent clothes, and good customer service, but that can be improved upon to make good money. They are inputs you can control.

In agriculture,the only input you can control, is the input of time you work on the farm. You are dependant on the market, and the weather. Both are out of your control. Bad weather can make or break a year. Bad weather can affect the health of your livestock, it can affect your crop, it an affect your cost on inputs. And there are times that no matter what you do, it is out of your control. You can do your best at putting in the best crop or you can do your best at providing up to date heath protocols for your livestock, in the end you are at the mercy of what someone else is will to pay, no negotiation.

In a restraunt you can set the price for a meal. In that price you include all you input costs, your labour, your overhead and your want to make $ and what the customer is willing to pay for your service. You know what it costs to make a plate, and your price to the customer is reflective on that.

In agriculture, say cows, your costs depend on inputs like fertilizer, fuel, vet bills, small tools, fence repairs, labour and overhead. Just like in a restraunt. The difference is, you take your cattle to an auction and the price you get depends on what the market dictates. We can not set our price to sell a cow or calf. We know our cost of production and we hope we can cover that but, get what we get and like it or not.

It is the same for any other ag commodity. We can not set the price for grains, oil seeds, any other livestock, or honey. We get the price that is dictated to us.

Now add in weather ie a hail storm that can wipe out a good crop in 5 minutes, add in deaths of livestock...not always controlled, cheaper imports into the country, and you begin to realize that any ag commodity is a job you have to love to continue.

Yes we can dictate the price we set for farmgate sales on honey, but a commercial producer produces way more honey that what farmgate sales account for. The rest goes bulk.
Livestock such as cows, you can set a price for breeding stock, but meat sales are highly regulated, and costly. Milk can not be sold farm gate, eggs, yes can be sold farmgate but again you are under some regulations like the # of birds for a none quota farm. Most farmgate sales of grain and oilseed is to other farmers for planting or feeding, not to consumers.
Then add into the mix a customer who comes for farm gate sales and says, how about we deal. If i buy 10# of honey will you give me a deal? Or if i buy 3 jars of honey instead of 1 will you give me a deal? They treat farmgate sales like a garage sale. New farmgate customers are so far removed from that ag world that they forget the effort and cost that goes into creating a farm fresh product.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

gmcharlie said:


> A good portion of it is your determination of sucess. 40k a year for a lot of us is a hobby.....



OK, you managed to make me feel like a loser.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

40k a year, You wish!!:doh:
If you sell 2 loads of honey for $100,000.00. that is a good price, not a great price, but OK.
Then you add all your expanses:
Packages, queens,HFC, trucks, insurance, feul, Equipment replacemant, and the list goes on. :scratch: I think I'm still in the hole.
The bad thing about comm. beekeeping is you put all the money out to produce a product and then the packer wants a 30-90 days to work with your honey interest free.:doh: Last year I gave a week for them to pay if they wanted it. I'm not a BANK!!!! If you need a bail out go to the Goverment.:no:


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*How Much Do You Make*

Man I've had years when I worked my tail off, put ALL my money in to the bees, no vacations, and still went backwards. Then you have to spend MORE money and do MORE work just to get back where you were. Sometimes it's just dumb pride that keeps you going.

I used to make & sell bee supplies and I got to see first hand how many go in to and get out of the bee biz. And how many have been doing it for, say, like John & Sheri, 25 years.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

The reason you find so many pessimists on forums is because the guys making the big bucks don't have the time to be on forums. (spoken tongue in cheek - it's a generalization; some on here probably make good money, but many more wish they did)

My neighbor used to have about 25 hives 20 years ago. When I started playing around with bees, his advice to me was that no one makes any money with bees without hard work being involved. Sheri said the same thing - beekeeping is hard manual labor that involves really long hours sometimes. It is real work. Don't quit your day job if you think you can get rich by sitting in a lawnchair watching your bees make honey. Plan on working until you hurt all over, and know there is still work that needs done.

Of course, take my advice with a grain of salt. I'm not a commercial beekeeper. (yet?)

During times I was laid off at my regular job, I have helped a grain farmer who ran about 3500 acres. During planting and harvest, we would work loooong hours. His motto was, "We'll sleep when it rains."

If need be, are you willing to do hard physical work 16 and 20 hour days for a few weeks straight? If you're willing to make that kind of commitment to the bees, then you might start thinking about quitting your day job.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Country boy,
"we'll sleep when it rains"? Yeah, after that syrup pump is fixed and the oil filter changed on the swinger and the tires changed on the truck and that batch of boxes assembled and painted and .....
Sheri


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Tom G. Laury said:


> OK, you managed to make me feel like a loser.


Not my intention..... point was that if you live in a place where a home price is 300k,, and or have several kids. They typical "farm income" won't even begin to cover it. I have been in farming all my life. And from that can tell you for sure its tough..... bees or corn either one......

(actually I am in Ag engineering) Most everyone I know in the business, bees or cows, is constantly whinining about profits and being broke,,,,,,, So jumping into bees as a commercial business, for many is not ever going to look like a finicial winner...... 40k is nice, but its a heck of a lot of work and not enough to live on in about 25% of the country....


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

tom ....been there done that! 2007 had 100 yr freeze AND 100 yr drought....2008 well would you believe a 120 yr drought?....been running bees since 1977.....out of those years I have had 7 bad ones....including the LAST 5!!! all related to drougnt and freezes. AND three hurricanes that ALL three crossed paths over my yards in FL....want to know where my bees are in Fl....look at where they crossed paths!!! got hit by all three!!!


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Bad things WILL happen to the bees if you stay with it long enough.For me its been:
Vandalism( now and then )
Floods (once)
Forest fires (twice)
Bears (every year)
Spray kill (twice)
Drought (regularly)
Too much rain (can't remember that one)
AFB (rarely)
Nosema C.(still trying to figure that one out)
Mites (twice lost 50% of hives)
Taxes (always)

You learn to just suck it up.I still manage to make a living at it, but have no illusions of ever getting rich.But I get to see every sunrise, and don't have to listen to some nagging moron of a boss.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Good list, Mike
To it I would add:
Theft
Unfair competition from imported honey (adulterated, blends?)

Sheri


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I thought of a few more things that can go wrong, Sheri, but no point in scaring away the newbees. On the bright side,we don't have hurricanes here. After losing her two hives to mites a few years ago, an old lady told me "Mike, I don't think this bee business is all its cracked up to be"

I am seriously concerned about the wildfire potential this year in Ca.Got a bad feeling about it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

rainesridgefarm said:


> if you know what you are doing you can make a very good profit on it. The key is to know what you are doing and location, location, location. Every hive and every yard is a little and sometimes a lot different so you need to be very dynamic in your beekeeping in todays times. Back before mites and mono cropping it was much easier.


I can't really argue w/ rainesridge, but I would add that being an organized workaholic businessminded person helps too. Plus longevity.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> Country boy,
> "we'll sleep when it rains"? Yeah, after that syrup pump is fixed and the oil filter changed on the swinger and the tires changed on the truck and that batch of boxes assembled and painted and .....
> Sheri


Hey Sheri,
Does anyone make an air-ride seat for a Bobcat Skidsteer? My butt is sore from loading and unloading hives. I'm sure you know what I mean.


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## dbest (Aug 9, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Hey Sheri,
> Does anyone make an air-ride seat for a Bobcat Skidsteer? My butt is sore from loading and unloading hives. I'm sure you know what I mean.


Dean has a spring suspension seat for the hummerbee. I have one that I bought and put on my bobcat. Its nice!


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

sqkcrk said:


> Hey Sheri,
> Does anyone make an air-ride seat for a Bobcat Skidsteer? My butt is sore from loading and unloading hives. I'm sure you know what I mean.


Don't know about the Skidsteer but our old Swinger needs a boat cushion to make it "sitable". The new Hummerbee we will be buying 'someday' are much improved I hear.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Ha, lol, I am getting into the spirit of Mike's post and reinforcing Gmcharlie's point on ag biz folks whining.

To Mike's list we can add the things that the human's put up with/have happen to them:
*Sore butts from long hours on the unloader.
*Wore out backs from not waiting for someone to help you lift that 140# colony.
*Getting up before dawn in mid summer to move that yard with 3 supers on because the new yard owner doesn't want bees.
*Researching and financing your own health insurance/business insurance.
*Long term separation from family and friends while on the road with the bees.
*Working hard during the hottest part of the hottest days....wearing heavy coveralls and gloves. 
The more I think about it, the more I wonder why anyone would do this sort of work. It must be mass insanity.
Sheri


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Sheri, 
I like the one about moving the bees because the beeyard owner doesn't want bees. I had one that wanted them somewhere different each year. Good thing it was a great producing area, or I would have only moved them once. Just down the road. 
Here is one to add to your list.
Show up at the beeyard to find that a new gate with lock. The owner is gone for the summer. :doh:Oops down to the hardware store to buy the master key. Those bolt cutters get me into everywhere. That gate might keep those kids out, but not me.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

The Honey Householder said:


> Sheri,
> Show up at the beeyard to find that a new gate with lock. The owner is gone for the summer. :doh:


Yep, happened to us once too, 
Sheri


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I carry bolt cutters too. Or the tools to take the hinges off the locked gate. When you drive 150 miles with a crew to move bees out of almonds and find an unexpected locked gate what choice is there?(happened this March)
My current headache is the guy with the pool who wants a yard of 100 nucs moved RIGHT NOW. Well, next week will have to do.
The point to all this is, successful commercial beekeepers have a lot of knowledge, good business sense, good locations, and a willingness to put in a lot of hours.
The rest of us will just need lots of luck


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## Dale Hodges (Jul 13, 2007)

Some people are cutout to be farmers some are not. I don't think even farmers can tell you why they do it. I've been a beekeeper since '63, and the only answer I've come up with is : I'm the best bossman I've ever worked for.


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## NewBee2007 (May 6, 2007)

*RE: 40k a year for a lot of us is a hobby*

Ok...for those of us that are still releatively new and learning about bee keeping.... 

To earn $40K/yr ... how many hives and how much traveling would one expect to do?

And...is that $40K/yr the profit after all the deductions?

TIA!





gmcharlie said:


> A good portion of it is your determination of sucess. 40k a year for a lot of us is a hobby.....


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## icodebot (Apr 18, 2009)

The point I'm getting is you need to work hard, be very knowledgeable about bee's (off coarse!), have a good location location, location, have some connections, a pair of bolt cutters, own your equipment outright, have money saved for when things are bad..... oh crap I just forgot something I know was important!

Oh yeah, be able to handle working in a business where you have minimal control over the outcome. So you should be able to manage risk as well as any banker. (um well maybe not a banker!)

Seriously the "work hard" part sounds the easiest. It's the other stuff that would scare me.

My (albeit naive and not thought out) beekeeping dream would be to retire early in the country with some land, have X number of hives, sell some honey (retail of coarse) and make a little pocket money to supplement my retirement income. Retirement is about 15 years away for me, so maybe I could learn something about bee's in that time.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

*starting young and getting older*

I think your getting somewhat the idea! If you started now, you could have enough hives to retire in 15 years. 
Their are a few other things, but some thing you have to learn the hard way. We all do.:scratch:
Good luck,
o/o Ron Householder


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

dale hodges writes:
Some people are cutout to be farmers some are not. I don't think even farmers can tell you why they do it.

tecumseh:
most folks are absolutely risk averse and a small portion of the population is risk seeking. I have always suspect agricultural producers (not the marketing folks but the producers) lean towards risk seeking enterprises. I have also long suspected the same folks enjoy the adrenlin push of doing anything that taxes life and limb. 

sqrcrk writes:
Does anyone make an air-ride seat for a Bobcat Skidsteer? My butt is sore from loading and unloading hives. I'm sure you know what I mean.

tecumseh:
load that semi by hand next time and I will almost guarantee your butt will feel better.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

tecumseh said:


> tecumseh:
> load that semi by hand next time and I will almost guarantee your butt will feel better.


lol...lol... Big T.

I shook my head too at that one, worried about there *** <edited by mod> when the loader is doing all the work.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Keith, I think you earned yourself a new nick name (to go with the others) "Hard *** Keith".
The rest of us need to make things as comfortable as we can.
Sheri


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

lol... Sheri, and you 86ed part of my post...  

Ya know, beekeeping has alot of pluses. I'm also in the constuction rental business & it can be a real pain in the ++++. 

Sure, the bees have there bad times but there minor compared to other businesses. 


P.S. Sheri, I knew I wouldn't make a good Mod. lol


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## Gene Weitzel (Dec 6, 2005)

tecumseh said:


> ....... I have also long suspected the same folks enjoy the adrenlin push of doing anything that taxes life and limb.......


Tec, when you've been sitting on your butt behind a desk for 30 years, the first time you feel that "rush" again, you get addicted (I used to volunteer at the church welfare farm and worked many hard days from dawn to dusk in my youth, over the years I had forgotten how good that felt). After spending the whole holiday weekend in the heat, adding supers, assembling equipment, etc, I told my wife that I could do this all day, every day and not look back (even though I had to soak in a hot tub for an hour a 5:00 each morning to loosen up adequately to start the day). I don't know if the feeling will last, but at this point the only thing that will stop me is if I keel over dead. I may not make much money at it, but it will be one heck of a hoot trying.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Dale Hodges said:


> Some people are cutout to be farmers some are not. I don't think even farmers can tell you why they do it. I've been a beekeeper since '63, and the only answer I've come up with is : I'm the best bossman I've ever worked for.


Yeah, and no one is going to lay you off either.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The Honey Householder said:


> I think your getting somewhat the idea! If you started now, you could have enough hives to retire in 15 years.
> Their are a few other things, but some thing you have to learn the hard way. We all do.:scratch:
> Good luck,
> o/o Ron Householder


Yeah. Right. Good luck w/ that.


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

I started beekeeping at age 36. I told an old beek that I wanted to keep bees commercial after I retired young at 55. He said at 55 I wouldn't want to keep bees. I had to prove him wrong. Kept bees semi- commercial (350) till I was 65. All the problems posted are true but when you got farming in your blood it is hard to quit. I had lots of luck picking up good locations. Built most of my equip. and machinery. Am close enough to 6 million people in LA to sell a lot of honey somewhere between retail and whosale, and only 75 miles from my almond contract, and had a good day job while building and learning ( 15 years). At 67 I can still work a farm laborer half my age into the ground. That said, just go for it.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Been running bees for awhile...this is my 33 rd year. Started with 2 and within 5 years I had 100 then 150 and also bought semi loads of honey(some from Mr. Householders parents when he was in diapers lol ). Eight years ago I started moving to Florida increasing my hive numbers. Havent made much profit yet other than almonds. Why?? Well you can make a bundle if the flow hits...problem is we havent had a GOOD flow since 2004 no bumper flow since 2001. Three droughts (one a 100 yr, one a 110 year back to back) a 100 yr freeze had killed both out tree honey(poplar/locust) and clovers. a drought will kill a Clover flow that year and if it last thru fall gets the next year also. I have kept my head above water...but thats all and I have no debt! If I had a couple of good crops(2005 and 2007 would have been great if we had rain in spring) I would have made good money. 5 or my worst 6 years honey production in 30 years of beekeeping are the last 5. nuf said!


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

We need to start the upside of this.

You will see hawks and vultures soaring on the wind. The owl hunting for its young in the quarry.
Babies of all kind walking past and by your bee yards. Love the skunk moms with those little ones and the deer with three fawns in tail.
You will learn every plant in your area and what it produces or does not produce.
Nothing like eating lunch before you work the yard and watching them work and guessing what field they are going to.
The taste of fresh nector that is at 50% moisture.
The sweet smell of the honey house while extracting.
The honey flowing out of the extractor.
Talking to your landlords and hearing how amazed they are at how good their gardens and fields are now that they have a yard there.
The feeling that your honey house is finally empting of supers and you can see the back wall.
The same feeeling you get when the honey is all in the drums and ready to sell.

I am sure there are more.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Then there are the spring days when work stops while you gather the morels that popped up around the beeyard.
And going through the nucs and finding lots of new queens laying like crazy.
Beeyards that are next to streams loaded with big trout.
Heading home from the packers with that big honey check.
And, knowing that with millions out of work, you have more work than you can handle (didn't say anything about getting paid for it).
Beekeeping is gambling. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

suttonbeeman said:


> Been running bees for awhile...this is my 33 rd year. Started with 2 and within 5 years I had 100 then 150 and also bought semi loads of honey(some from Mr. Householders parents when he was in diapers lol ).
> 
> Well Rick,
> I started my first 25 hives when I was 8 years old. I've been in the business now for 29 years. Don't you wish you could buy honey for those kind of prices again Rick. I remember went we sold honey for $.38 a lb. and now I get $1.85 a lb. Like Rick said there is good years like the 72 ton year, and then there is those bad years like the 8 ton year.
> ...


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## joker1656 (Jul 10, 2009)

I have really enjoyed reading all of these posts. I can barely claim to have this as a hobby, yet. This is my first season, so I have harvested very little honey. I wish I would have gotten into this years ago. 

Reading the anecdotes, good and bad, does nothing but make me want to pursue this more and more. I have a solid full time job, but look forward to trying to build slow and make, at the very least, a good sideline. 

As hard as it is, I have always pined away for the life of a self-sufficient farmer. Never liked the city, or the rat race. Due to choices made years ago, and SOME circumstances beyond my control, I still ended up there. For the past three years I have slowly edged into the lifestyle I hoped for. 

Maybe reading this thread should scare me off. LOL It doesn't tho. Don't know if I will ever get to the level of a REAL commercial producer, but just being my own boss will make me grin.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Hi Joker*

It's a steep and slippery slope you're headed down, enjoy the ride! 
That fascination for the bee keeps a lot of folks going through the rough parts of the road.


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## John Smith (Jan 31, 2006)

I say beekeeping is a vocation more so than an occupation.

It takes many years and possibly several generations to make a truly great commercial beekeeper. I say it is some kind of a Karmic School for dissidents of the system. We all crave than sense of individuality that comes from knowing we can survive in the forest without the help of society. When we get refined enough to do that well, we will probably then realize that we are the tent poles than hold up the tent of society.

Beekeepers are the salt of the earth. Thanks for letting me play.

Cheers,

JohnS


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## Sarge (Jun 26, 2006)

gmcharlie said:


> A good portion of it is your determination of sucess. 40k a year for a lot of us is a hobby.....


 40K a year is more than I made working full time for most of my life, and we raised 4 kids on that.
So I have to say that I agree in part. Alot depends on your view of what you need to feel successful. And what kind of lifestyle you need.


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## John Smith (Jan 31, 2006)

........................and you can have as much overtime as you like!

Cheers,

JohnS


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## icodebot (Apr 18, 2009)

I had some questions I wish I had asked earlier. I'd really appreciate insights anyone could share.

Is it more common than not to rent the land you keep your bee's on? 

Do successful professionals usually have more than 1 location / bee yard?

Is it difficult finding a buyer for your honey, at a fair price?

How much can you expect to make per hive in a good year? ( Is that even a good way to look at it, when you are estimating gross income? )

What do you think the start up costs would be for a small/medium sized operation? Someone was saying it's best to own your own equipment and not to rent equipment. That made me wonder what equipment is being referred to? Hives seem like they'd be cheap if you build your own. I can see the extractor and packaging equipment being expensive. Is there much more to it than that if you are just producing honey, and not moving your hives around?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, and thanks to everyone.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

i never rent the land i put bees on or at least rent with money i give them a few jars of honey at the end of every year.

yes any one making honey has to have multiple location i have around 30 summer honey yards for 1000 hives and am looking for more locations. 

I have not had a problem finding buyers for my honey the fair price thing well i guess that all in the eye of the beholder i never think its high enough the buyer always thinks its too high lol.

how much honey in a year is very dependent on your location and the way you operate i know some who never make honey they just pollinate.


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