# Suggestions on package failures?



## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

You may have read my posts last weekend about trouble with 2 packages. I will purchase two more packages and try again. Here is what I had for equipment and what I did. 

All new Mann Lake equipment, 1 deep brood box with 10 frames of wax coated plastic foundation and wood frames, screened bottom board, cedar hive stand, 2 gallon top feeder in shallow super filled with 1-1 sugar syrup and a pollen pattie substitute on top of the foundation bars, inner cover over feeder and telescoping cover. First package I placed queen with candy between center frames and dumped 1/4 of bees on queen, closed up hive and dumped 3/4 in front of hive per instructions in the book "The new starting right with bees".....the bees were slow to enter the hive and some clustered under and behind hive(it was a little windy). The other hive was set up the same but I dumped 3/4 in the hive and 1/4 in front of hive. Most all of these bees entered hive. The next day was very windy and all the bees in first hive were clustered on outside of hive away from wind, I brushed them in a pail and dumped them back inside....they came crawling out as fast as I put them in and again clustered behind the hive(I had entrances reduced to 1 inch on both hives) so I brushed them into a pail and put them back in the hive and blocked the entrance, then removed the blockage two and a half days later. This morning when I checked, nearly all the bees in hive one are dead.....just a few very slow moving around.....the second hive has more live bees but they act like they are sick as they also are moving very slowly and certainly don't look healthy. Other than putting all the bees inside the hive from the packages, what do I need to do different? These are my first hives.

Thanks for any suggestions.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

You may find this useful:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beespackages.htm

> "put them back in the hive and blocked the entrance". 
If by that you mean you blocked the entrance with a solid object, they will have a hard time with that. A screen would have been a better choice. However, note that M. Bush recommends allowing them to fly at will.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Did you get these bees on your own or were they part of a club purchase? They don't sound like the packages I have gotten in the past though I must admit my prejudice in favor of nucs for the reasons you've described in your posts. It doesn't seem like there would be any benefit to having the packages replaced. Are there any other sources for bees available to you?


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## Albatross (Mar 8, 2012)

I don't have a lot of experience, but I have installed three packages successfully. I was taught to install the Queen cage first, then remove a few frames and shake the bees in. As many as possible. Replace the frames, put your covers on, and then place the package on a cinderblock or something close to and more or less level with the entrance of the hive with the hole pointing towards it. All the remaining bees will go into the hive within an hour or so. It has worked for me.
But in your case the bees eventually DID enter the hive and came back out later, correct?
I would guess, and this is only a guess, that there was something toxic in the hives themselves that the bees didn't like. What did you paint the hive with? How long ago? Did you paint anything on the inside? Maybe the Pollen Pattie had gone bad. Did you boil your sugar water? Obviously there was something about those hives they didn't like. Some came out and some stayed in but they stuck around until they died because their queen was still in there. Otherwise they probably would have all came out and found a new place to live.
I installed a package last weekend in a setup almost exactly like yours. New medium hive body, new Mann Lake PF120 plastic frames, new Mann Lake Hive Top Feeder, used Hive Stand, covers, and solid bottom board. I painted everything with one coat oil-based primer and two coats of Sears Weatherbeater paint. (On the outside only.) Everything had at least two days to dry (mostly more) before I got the bees. I fed them 1:1 sugar water syrup (boiled) and no Pollen Pattie. I checked on them today and they're doing great. Drawing out comb, bringing in nectar & pollen, laying eggs and loving it. 
Unless you can figure out what was poisoning them, my suggestion would be to install your next packages on some different equipment and see how they take to it. If they do OK, then your current equipment is probably contaminated with something. I wouldn't have expected it with new stuff, but you never know.


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## Tom B (May 11, 2011)

This is what I was taught and is working reliably for me: Remove 4 frames from the box you are introducing the bees into, dump all of the bees into the "hole" where the frames were removed, rap, smack and shake the package until all of the bees are out and in the hive. Carefully replace the frames that you removed and place the queen cage a little off-center (like between frame #3 and #4) and close up the hive. Add a feeder over the inner cover hole. Reduce the bottom entrance to 1" wide, close all upper entrances. A couple of things that I do a little differently from what you read in books: I hang the queen cage from a small nail driven into the side of a frame top bar rather than squeezing the cage between two frames. Also, I wait at least 5 days and sometimes up to 7 days to release the queen (my queen cages do not come with a candy plug, just a cork).

Keep experimenting! You will find a way that works for you, it may be different from what others are doing but who cares if it works!


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## mrqb (Jul 17, 2011)

a few things,do the pkg's have stickers from state they came from showing the apiary is inspected,do u know if supplier treats for nosema,and or varroa, are u sure they are able to get syrup,did u make syrup in a manner to be sure you didn't caramalize it. opinions vary but i always put all the bees in the hive,put entrance reducer on smallest opening till bees build up and can protect there hive.never put bees back in hive sick bees will naturally leave hive if they know there sick,putting them back may put disease back in hive.and what are your overnight temps,shouldn't be a problem now,but with the extra super all there heat is escaping


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## mrqb (Jul 17, 2011)

another note i always put the sticky tray in sbb for first few weeks till day temps stay fairly warm


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

Yes, with a solid object. That was suggested so they would get used to the hive.




Rader Sidetrack said:


> You may find this useful:
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beespackages.htm
> 
> > "put them back in the hive and blocked the entrance".
> If by that you mean you blocked the entrance with a solid object, they will have a hard time with that. A screen would have been a better choice. However, note that M. Bush recommends allowing them to fly at will.


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

I got them from a local beekeeper. I spoke to another beekeeper today that got his bees on the same day, so far so good for him. No nucs for sale in Iowa that I am aware of.





Andrew Dewey said:


> Did you get these bees on your own or were they part of a club purchase? They don't sound like the packages I have gotten in the past though I must admit my prejudice in favor of nucs for the reasons you've described in your posts. It doesn't seem like there would be any benefit to having the packages replaced. Are there any other sources for bees available to you?


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

Hives were painted by Mann Lake and dated July 2010, so they had plenty of time to air out. Bee patties were just purchased and they smell fine. I have 6 more deep brood boxes from Mann Lake so I can try different equipment.





Albatross said:


> I don't have a lot of experience, but I have installed three packages successfully. I was taught to install the Queen cage first, then remove a few frames and shake the bees in. As many as possible. Replace the frames, put your covers on, and then place the package on a cinderblock or something close to and more or less level with the entrance of the hive with the hole pointing towards it. All the remaining bees will go into the hive within an hour or so. It has worked for me.
> But in your case the bees eventually DID enter the hive and came back out later, correct?
> I would guess, and this is only a guess, that there was something toxic in the hives themselves that the bees didn't like. What did you paint the hive with? How long ago? Did you paint anything on the inside? Maybe the Pollen Pattie had gone bad. Did you boil your sugar water? Obviously there was something about those hives they didn't like. Some came out and some stayed in but they stuck around until they died because their queen was still in there. Otherwise they probably would have all came out and found a new place to live.
> I installed a package last weekend in a setup almost exactly like yours. New medium hive body, new Mann Lake PF120 plastic frames, new Mann Lake Hive Top Feeder, used Hive Stand, covers, and solid bottom board. I painted everything with one coat oil-based primer and two coats of Sears Weatherbeater paint. (On the outside only.) Everything had at least two days to dry (mostly more) before I got the bees. I fed them 1:1 sugar water syrup (boiled) and no Pollen Pattie. I checked on them today and they're doing great. Drawing out comb, bringing in nectar & pollen, laying eggs and loving it.
> Unless you can figure out what was poisoning them, my suggestion would be to install your next packages on some different equipment and see how they take to it. If they do OK, then your current equipment is probably contaminated with something. I wouldn't have expected it with new stuff, but you never know.


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

That's why I'm not giving up......something has to work, but I just need to figure it out. My queens had the cork, but I removed it and inserted the candy tubes I was given. Both queens were very active and looked healthy.




Tom B said:


> This is what I was taught and is working reliably for me: Remove 4 frames from the box you are introducing the bees into, dump all of the bees into the "hole" where the frames were removed, rap, smack and shake the package until all of the bees are out and in the hive. Carefully replace the frames that you removed and place the queen cage a little off-center (like between frame #3 and #4) and close up the hive. Add a feeder over the inner cover hole. Reduce the bottom entrance to 1" wide, close all upper entrances. A couple of things that I do a little differently from what you read in books: I hang the queen cage from a small nail driven into the side of a frame top bar rather than squeezing the cage between two frames. Also, I wait at least 5 days and sometimes up to 7 days to release the queen (my queen cages do not come with a candy plug, just a cork).
> 
> Keep experimenting! You will find a way that works for you, it may be different from what others are doing but who cares if it works!


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

The packages were from Iowa and the queens from California. Others seemed to not have problems. I mixed 5 lbs of sugar in a gallon jug which gets you very close to 1-1 and added Pro-health to it. Shook it well.....waited and shook several times again, but did not heat or boil the water. The inner cover was above the feeder.....not a jar feeder but the plastic Mann Lake feeder with the entrance in the middle and screen to keep the bees from drowning.




mrqb said:


> a few things,do the pkg's have stickers from state they came from showing the apiary is inspected,do u know if supplier treats for nosema,and or varroa, are u sure they are able to get syrup,did u make syrup in a manner to be sure you didn't caramalize it. opinions vary but i always put all the bees in the hive,put entrance reducer on smallest opening till bees build up and can protect there hive.never put bees back in hive sick bees will naturally leave hive if they know there sick,putting them back may put disease back in hive.and what are your overnight temps,shouldn't be a problem now,but with the extra super all there heat is escaping


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

So if I'm reading this correctly, you bought two packages that failed, then put two more in the same gear and they failed. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Since I've heard and tried very different ways of hiving a package, I don't believe your experience is related to procedure.

Sounds like something is killing them. Is anyone nearby using pesticides? Are they within easy reach of an uneasy neighbor?

If you give it another go and since you are most likely entering the flow, I suggest trying with new unpainted gear in a different location and forgo any feeding. Most of mine don't take any syrup when nectar is available anyway.


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

No, two total packages in two hives, but the bees kept leaving one hive, so I put them back in twice. The second time I blocked the 1 inch opening to try and keep them in the hive as was suggested on this site. 




throrope said:


> So if I'm reading this correctly, you bought two packages that failed, then put two more in the same gear and they failed. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Since I've heard and tried very different ways of hiving a package, I don't believe your experience is related to procedure.
> 
> ...


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

Ok , the question about the water got me thinking......I used cool well water to mix the sugar syrup.....maybe there is something in the well water that they don't like? I will use city water next time and if you think it's necessary I will boil it?


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

I'm pretty new but your experience sounds really strange to me. Don't know if this will be any help but this is how my package installation last year went.

Equipment: one deep with ten frames duragilt foundation. Solid bottom, migratory cover boardman feeder. Everything came used and had been sitting empty outside for five plus years.

Set an empty deep ontop of the hive filled with frames. Removed the queen, added a marshmellow cork and hung her on the center frame. Dumped all the bees directly onto the frames using the empty deep on top as a kind of funnel. (it was a really windy day, I was afraid they would all blow away without a windbreak around them) All the bees crawled down into the frames after about five minutes. Took off the empty deep, replaced cover. Entrance reduced to 2"x3/4"

Two days later checked hive, queen had been released, all was well. Hive did great all summer until being destroyed by bears.

Things I didn't do: Use smoke, or sugar water spray or anything in the syrup besides sugar.

I did notice that they didn't seem to be feeding at all the first couple days. I eventually smeared a half teaspoon of honey on the lid of the entrance feeder. That got their attention and they promptly sucked down a whole jar in a day.


The only thing that sounds strange about your install is dumping some of the bees outside the hive, I don't know why you would do that. Also, bees need a lot of air,completely blocking the entrance with a solid block seems like it would cut off the air they need. I would use mesh of some kind.


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

I didn't block the hive until they wouldn't stay in the one hive and they had a screened bottom board so there was plenty of ventilation. My only other thought is the strong smell of spearmint from the Pro Health product....could that be what they didn't like? I won't use any with the next packages.


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

Good luck.


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

Thank you if you are being sincere......if not.....oh well.




scdw43 said:


> Good luck.


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## martinvermillion64 (Mar 22, 2012)

I installed a package about a week ago. Prefer to place the queen in the middle between two frames w/ drawn comb if possible. Then place a empty deep on top put the open cage on its side in the empty deep. Never shook.smacked,etc the package. All the bees were out with exception of maybe fifty in about one hour. Removed the cage and empty deep put on feeder, cover, lid and done deal. This way all frames are in except the one that goes where the queen cage is currently at. This is replaced when queen is out and her cage is removed that is unless you direct release eleminating the need to leave out the one frame. I had great results doing it this way it dosen't stress or injure the bees more than the already are. There are many ways this is mine. You may have better luck with a different method. Good Luck no matter how it is done.


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## martinvermillion64 (Mar 22, 2012)

One last thing didn't smoke, spray sugar syrup or even have a veil on. Good Italian bees from Walter T. Kelly. Think the more you do to them the harder it makes it for you and the bees. Opinion only all situations can and will be different. Don't recommend going without a veil unless you are very comfortable around bees.


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

martinvermillion64 said:


> I installed a package about a week ago. Prefer to place the queen in the middle between two frames w/ drawn comb if possible. Then place a empty deep on top put the open cage on its side in the empty deep. Never shook.smacked,etc the package. All the bees were out with exception of maybe fifty in about one hour. Removed the cage and empty deep put on feeder, cover, lid and done deal. This way all frames are in except the one that goes where the queen cage is currently at. This is replaced when queen is out and her cage is removed that is unless you direct release eleminating the need to leave out the one frame. I had great results doing it this way it dosen't stress or injure the bees more than the already are. There are many ways this is mine. You may have better luck with a different method. Good Luck no matter how it is done.


Sounds like a good method! Thanks for the tip.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I like the sound of martinvermillon64's method for package installs. It seems gentler on the bees and perhaps it is just my anthropomorphizing "instincts" but gentler seems better. As for why one package would keep trying to bug out, I'd try to figure out what they are objecting to in their new home. The boxes you've said are identical to the other hive where the bees are staying put. Is there anything else that is different? Thinking aloud, frame styles, plastic vs wax foundation, frames sprayed with sugar water or not, undrawn vs drawn frames, pest issues, screen bottom board vs solid bottom board... This list is not exhaustive by any means but something is causing the bees to want to leave. Let us know if you figure it out. Oh - And as an after thought - screening the opening would have been my preference instead of shutting it with a solid object.


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## martinvermillion64 (Mar 22, 2012)

One way to at least keep the queen in while letting the workers do their thing is cut a piece of queen excluder and place it over the entrance use a couple of small "frame nails" to hold it on the hive. This will at the very least keep the queen home. The only use I have for excluders.
All of this still don't know why your bees were not comfortable? Seems like you did well can't figure only guess. Best guess, !00% natural no spray sugar b-healthy just put them in gently and they will take care of the rest. I add nothing other than pure cane sugar mixed with pure,very pure water and never spray it only in the feeder untill the don't need it anymore. We tend to try too hard only to make things more complicated at least that was my old way of doing it.Probably would never close hive completly unless moving them from place to place. Methods do vary greatly though this is simply my take on it.


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

Good ideas, I will give that a try.


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## mrobinson (Jan 20, 2012)

I have TBHs and direct-released the queen: (1) pull cage out, shake attendants into hive, check for live queen, unroll the carrying strap, set the cage inside. (2) Dump bees. Put box on ground outside entrance. (3) Retrieve cage, remove _non-_candy cork with a jackknife blade or pin, (optional: smear shut with your own fresh dry marshmallow), hold your finger over the opening as you place the cage screen-up gently on floor of hive (or on bees), observing that she's getting out as you close up. If you're really concerned that she'll fly, _very_ lightly mist with water-only to dampen her wings. _(Sparingly...!)_

You don't have to wonder if she got out, and she's not sitting where she'll interfere with any comb-building. If you used a candy-plug it was _your_ candy and it's just marshmallow, meant to buy you a minute or two.

I went in after only three days to retrieve the cage; that was quite unnecessary. The bees were ignoring the cage, and me.

I'm new too ... mine is not "the voice of authority," but it worked.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I rip the screen off the side of the package and shake the bees into the hive. I direct release the queen if I know the package has been together at least 3 days.


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

Cam, I probably won't rip the side off because they want the package returned, but I still appreciate the response on what works for you!


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## mrobinson (Jan 20, 2012)

I've heard it said that the process of getting the bees out of a package is like trying to get a pick out of a guitar. inch: I can relate to that...


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## martinvermillion64 (Mar 22, 2012)

When I have put the entire cage in they climb right quiet fast actually plus all the dead bees and debris in the bottom are not shaken into the hive. I guess if there were a hundred of them to install the method would be very different. May consider ripping the side from the cage and pounding them in as fast as possible but I doubt I would do it even on a large scale. That is just me lots of different methods work well. Good luck no matter how you do it. Figure they are shaken and moved enough before they ever arrive.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I've heard it said that the process of getting the bees out of a package is like trying to get a pick out of a guitar.

The pick doesn't hold on...


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

LeondardS writes...
The packages were from Iowa and the queens from California.


So, I'm reading this as 2 queenless packages from Iowa and then the 2 queens from California.

The queens were not inside the packages any time before installing? The bees had no chance to claim the queen before hiving? Most packages with queens have the queen in the package of bees at least an hour before they are hived and usually quite a bit longer time. This in conjuction with the below paragraph could have been an issue perhaps?

Your description of the ordeal makes me think there was a queen with the bees outside the hive, and the queen you bought inside the hive. Some times when making up packages a virgin queen or queen will slip by and get in the package as it was being made up. It would cause the situation you describe, but there could be other reasons as well. Best of luck to your next packages.


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

Ray, the beekeeper I bought the packages from, purchased the queens from California. The queens were in a queen cage that was inside the packages for 2 days before I put the queen and bees in the hive. They had a couple of days to get used to the queen and they had the queens released in 24 hours after installing the packages.

I am picking up two more packages on Thursday evening and plan to install them on Friday.


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