# How long can virgins be kept



## thomas (Apr 23, 2006)

I have some virgins that are hatching out and i have a couple that hatched out saturday but i could not put them in nucs due to i had to leave. But i know more should be coming out soon they have rollers around them and now it is cold and raining but monday it will be sunny will they be fine till then or did i wait to late.

Thomas


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Virgins can be tricky to introduce once hatched. They don't seem to keep long outside of the hive unless you have attendants. Maybe a day, two if your lucky. 

I would have got cells into your nucs earlier if they are already hatching.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

I agree with burns. Next time, make your splits in between the sensitive stage and hatching stage. The way I do it is, make up my nucs and then go and place a cell in each one. Sometimes, I make one and place a cell. But only if a storm is minutes away, like Friday. my mating nucs are usually queenless for 5-30 minutes. I have good success with cells.


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## WillH (Jun 25, 2010)

thomas said:


> I have some virgins that are hatching out and i have a couple that hatched out saturday but i could not put them in nucs due to i had to leave. But i know more should be coming out soon they have rollers around them and now it is cold and raining but monday it will be sunny will they be fine till then or did i wait to late.
> 
> Thomas


They should be fine for 5 days (when mating flights start), a queenless colony will accept a virgin, just keep caged for 24 hours.


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## Flewster (Nov 3, 2003)

Ive had good luck just putting her on the landing board and smoking her in a queenless hive. Seems to accept them most of the time. I think they know they are hopelessly queenless and wont stop a wandering random queen from entering if she so happens to land in front of their hive. "come on in your Majesty" they seem to say


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Hopefully more folks chime in, have a batch emerging in the incubator in the next couple days. Hoping to go back and make sure the cells I placed emerged and if not replace with an emerged virgin.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

They normally begin orienting flights about day 5 or 6 after emergence, usually mating on day 6, 7, or 8 for 1 or 2 days of mating flights. Weather may delay this, and a lack of drones may cause a VQ to go out on mating flights repeatedly until mated.

A virgin that does not get mated after 4 weeks usually becomes a drone layer. This can happen to virgin queens that do not get mated at 3 weeks, though, so most queen rearing beek's don't trust one after that time. 

If you have a large batch of virgins banked in an incubator and a weeks' worth of bad weather approaching, it may be worth a trip to better weather to place mating nuc's out. 

That's really 2 trips for most of us, so careful planning and checking the weather maps, and consulting someone very adept at weather prediction - to keep it as close as possible yet far enough for better weather. That's an economics problem that each beekeeper has to figure for himself - the distance of the trip, the cost, this year's nectar flow, and a SWAG about how long the nectar / pollen will last, and other factors. Of course, I'm thinking like a full-time beekeeper, not like a guy with a regular job.


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## thomas (Apr 23, 2006)

Thanks for the help i am going to get them in nucs tomarrow if the weather is good they have plenty of bees taking care of them but i know better next time 

Thomas


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## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

According to Dr. Larry Connor, "Research shows that we can use young, unmated queens for up to two weeks after emergence" without reduced mating success or viability.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks for putting that so nice and so succinctly. I fully agree with Larry. After two weeks is pushing it. After 3 weeks, most likely it will be better to drop-kick. Keep the old queens until you have raised a fresh batch of queens (if the season allows). Then, after they have mated and are laying a solid pattern, go ahead and re-queen the hives that need it.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Last year I introduced 13, 2 day old virgin queens to queenless nucs. I put them in with a candy plug. Three out of 13 made it. I know some of them were killed by the bees. I never intended to do anything other than put the ripe cells in with the nucs but I had to go out of town and they all hatched while I was gone. I put the cells in roller cages before I left and let them hatch in the roller cages.

I have seen a youtube video and read here to cover them in honey and do a direct release. If I ever get forced into a situation where I have to introduce virgins again, that is what I will do.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Brad Bee - instead, read Harry Vanderpool's thread, "Successful Queen Introduction Tips". He spells it out pretty good in that thread, and he's getting 98% acceptance. Not bad for California Slot cages.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

kilocharlie said:


> Brad Bee - instead, read Harry Vanderpool's thread, "Successful Queen Introduction Tips". He spells it out pretty good in that thread, and he's getting 98% acceptance. Not bad for California Slot cages.


Unless I'm thinking about a different thread, that thread talks about introducing mated queens, not virgins. Apples to oranges comparison.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

There was another post here recently that talked about covering the virgin queen with honey and running her into the queenless hive. They said by the time the bees finished cleaning her up, they were all friends. I plan to give that a try this year when my next round of queen cells hatch. I like to put the almost ready to hatch cells in a roller cage and then see what the virgin queen looks like before I go to the trouble of making up a nuc. I also want to try and sell the virgins vs. the queen cells that don't always hatch out.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You've got three weeks to get them mated before they will be drone layers. If you wait two weeks and then you have a week of rainy weather you've missed the window... I would try not to go over a week for that reason.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

+1 :thumbsup:


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

i've never had good sucess keep virgins. How do you guys stores and introduce?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

i have 2 virgins coming in the mail tomorrow, this thread couldn't have come at a better time. LOL


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Harley Craig said:


> i have 2 virgins coming in the mail tomorrow, this thread couldn't have come at a better time. LOL


Apparently the answer to the question is "Not until Thursday".


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

rniles said:


> According to Dr. Larry Connor, "Research shows that we can use young, unmated queens for up to two weeks after emergence" without reduced mating success or viability.


Robert, that may be so, but I wonder more about acceptance than successful mating. I want to requeen full size, double deep colonies, not introduce them to nucs or mating nucs, and THEN combine with full size hives. If the virgins are killed on introduction, mating is moot.
How is everyone's success with putting virgin queens into full size queenless colonies?


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

Robert, no disrespect, of course, just wondering.....


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## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

Absolutely none taken! A very interesting question and I was curious as well. I started a new thread regarding your question so this thead can stay on topic ... http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...roducing-Virgin-Queens-in-Full-sized-Colonies


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

So if I had a batch of virgin queens banked for 3 or 4 days and small nucs sitting 3 or 4 days queenless, whats the thought on the best introduction method(s)


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

I am one of the people that tried this and responded on this issue. I got 40 fresh hatched virgins from a queen breeder and took them to the field - direct released them by covering them in honey from the hive I put them in and had all 40 take. Tried this again with cages and when the bees released then - killed every one. Really - smear them in honey - You'll be surprised how many take.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I have banked virgins for over a week, after being mailed to me, used AN and had 80% success


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

sakhoney: how long had those hives been queenless? Did you just make up some splits 24 hrs prior? And when you say "cover them in honey", how much are we talking about? A lite drizzle or totally submerged?


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

nucs - in 4 framers - but very strong - made up 2 days before turning queens loose. Took hive tool and dipped in honey above the brood on a frame and covered her everywhere except on the head. I was afraid of drowning her. I drenched her really good


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## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

sakhoney said:


> I am one of the people that tried this and responded on this issue. I got 40 fresh hatched virgins from a queen breeder and took them to the field - direct released them by covering them in honey from the hive I put them in and had all 40 take. Tried this again with cages and when the bees released then - killed every one. Really - smear them in honey - You'll be surprised how many take.


I just tried this and did not have any success

. I first placed the queen in the cage on a frame to see how the bees reacted. If they were scenting or indifferent, I released the queen and as I did so, smeared some honey on her abdomen and wings. My hives/nucs were one or two days without a queen.

I see you already answered my additional questions. I'll try that next time to see if that makes a difference.


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## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

camero7 said:


> I have banked virgins for over a week, after being mailed to me, used AN and had 80% success


"used AN" ... sorry for being dull, what is "AN"? 

Edited: Ah! Ammonium Nitrate!! ...OK, got it ...that reminds me, I have to read those threads.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

rniles said:


> "used AN" ... sorry for being dull, what is "AN"?
> 
> Edited: Ah! Ammonium Nitrate!! ...OK, got it ...that reminds me, I have to read those threads.


What do you use Ammonium nitrate for in beekeeping? I know what to do with it for gardening purposes...


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

ruthiesbees said:


> What do you use Ammonium nitrate for in beekeeping? I know what to do with it for gardening purposes...


http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?261755-Introducing-virgins&highlight=ammonium+nitrate


camero7 said:


> It puts the bees to sleep, and impairs their memory - much like the CO2 that the Hawaiian breeders use.
> 
> Put the virgin in the hive [in her shipping cage].
> 
> ...





camero7 said:


> Originally from a Chilean Beekeeper [Juanse Barros] then got more info on it from Allen Dick and Bob Hack. Juanse and Bob both use it exclusively to introduce queens [mated and virgins]. I used it on a couple of mated queen last year with success.
> 
> Should note that Allen tried it and didn't like it.





odfrank said:


> I did dozens of mean hives in the '70s using this method, works great. I now do most of my bee work in shirt sleeves.
> 
> 
> Ammonium nitrate - Get a few table spoons from a local wholesale nursery or farmer. Have a new caged queen, division screen and drone guard (entrance queen excluder) ready. Light the smoker, drop in a table spoon of ammonium nitrate, don't inhale the smoke as it will blast out of the smoker. Fumigate the hive with the blasting smoke. The bees will fall unconscious. Shake them onto a sheet in front of the hive. Place all the brood in the upper brood chamber. They will awake from their stupor and walk back into the hive, the queen being found on the entrance excluder. Divide the hive introducing the new queen above the division screen into the box containing the brood. These mean bees will kill the new queen if you try a direct introduction. The division screens sends the old mean bees back to the box down below, young bees above to accept the new queen. Either squish the old queen, or mark her and run her back into the bottom. You will then have to find her and squish her after the new queen up above is accepted, then merging the boxes.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Thanks for the info JW!


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Cool thread!

The sooner a virgin is introduced to a group of support bees after her emergence from the cell, the greater the chances she will be accepted. Acceptance leads to her getting mated.
Day-old virgins are much more likely to be accepted then 2-day old ones. The older the virgins get, the more difficult their introduction is.

The environment where you introduce the virgins is very important to a successful introduction. If there's any un-sealed brood, the chances of acceptance are much less then if there are only eggs or sealed/emerging brood.

*Recipe for success when introducing a virgin:* use a young one and introduce her to a nuc with no unsealed/open brood, filled with very young bees.

Adam
http://vpqueenbees.com


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## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

rsjohnson2u said:


> Robert, that may be so, but I wonder more about acceptance than successful mating.


An update. Acceptance has been OK but getting them through the mated stage much more problematic. I don't know why but introducing a virgin queen and getting her mated and laying has been much less successful than introducing a queen cell and getting her mated. 

The virgin queens have been of various ages, mostly between 24 hours old and 4 days.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Curious what equipment you have the bees in. I had 0% success mating virgins one year when I used the Beemax nucs. that same year I had almost 90% success with wooden nucs. I quit using the Beemax for mating as a result, even with cells.


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## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

camero7 said:


> Curious what equipment you have the bees in. I had 0% success mating virgins one year when I used the Beemax nucs. that same year I had almost 90% success with wooden nucs. I quit using the Beemax for mating as a result, even with cells.


I use 5 frame medium nucs for my mating nucs. All mind are made from wood.

Can you talk about how you're introducing them, what age are they when introducing them?


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

On mine - they were freshly hatched the day I put them - hours old - Had no issues with them mating. I used the honey from each hive above the brood.
JW - see what happens when you mix AN and aluminum powder - Google tannerite - talk about fun - and legal


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