# 11 frames for broodnest



## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

I have seen a couple of posts regarding using eleven 1-1/4" frames in a ten frame box. I've read up on it some too and it sounds like a technique that I would like to try. 
Now, I currently have two hives running two standard ten frames deep brood boxes and I also have a spare ten frame deep with five or six spare frames. I could convert the spare box to eleven frames.
I have a couple of the Brushy Mountain triangle bee escapes available for use.
What would be a good approach to swap over to eleven frame boxes?


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## brushmouth (Jan 17, 2010)

You have a situation were you need to avoid disrupting the order of the frames,save the comb and brood etc. (as little as possible,without starting over)

I would fashion some sort of jig to hold a single frame of bees with bees attached and use a pocket plane to remove a bit of the end bar from both sides. (that should prove to be an interesting process, but do-able?)
I have shaved frames to make 13 fit in a jumbo brood box, without bees attached however..LOL
Guessing you should only need to remove about the same amount of material.
Just a thought...? 

Merry Christmas,

BM


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

you could also start with new brood frames. shave them down and replace one every few weeks.


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## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

Do it with new frames! 
Don't try running a frame of bees through your table saw to trim it down. It can be done. 
But you can also shoot yourself in the foot. Doable but not advised.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would do it with new frames or with frames that have been uncapped down to the wood so they don't protrude too far. Bees will build them slightly less deep and the honey won't have room to stick out as far with 11 frames.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What is the reason for doing this? I don't understand something, I'm sure. I forsee trouble getting frames out w/out breakage.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Ten percent more brood within the same cluster during early build up.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Does it really work? If so, Why don't people build 12 frame equipment anymore? Just asking.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

If it works it isn't because there are more frames in the box it would be because the frames are narrower they take up less volume within the cluster. I don't know if it works or not. But it kind of makes sense.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

If your goal is more brood area why not just add another brood box on top like folks have been doing for about a century and a half? :scratch:


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Because more brood nest area isnt the point. The cluster is only a half of a cubic foot or so in volume. It can only hold X number of brood of any given size. By making the brood smaller the same cluster holds more brood. Or so the theory goes.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I've never done this so I don't know for sure. But, why would there be more brood in a box just because there is an extra comb? Once the bees have more combs than they need, ie
three story hives, they maintain a certain amount of brood and it doesn't matter how many frames they have. IMO, It's more about genetics than the configuration of the hive.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

theres also the idea that by makeing the bee space smaller you can cover the brood with just one layer of bees instead of 2. which means you can cover more brood with less nurse bees.

again has to do with the total amount of brood you can raise (in the spring) within a given area with a given number of surviving (winter) bees


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

Ever think about trying top bar hives for the extra frame space? 
:s


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

This is the most recent post that I was following;
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249131&highlight=trimming
My question is regarding the mechanics of introducing the 11-frame brood box. 
I can use the bee escapes to move the bees out or maybe it would be better to do like a reversal and use the queen excluder, wait for the brood to hatch and then trim the frames.
Would it be better to just start swapping in the frames when I do my checkerboarding. Then it seems that I would get a bunch of bridge and burr comb throughout the interim. 
I guess I could also wait until the bees are in one deep brood box and remove the unused one and trim the frames. But then do I run the risk of messing up their winter stores?
Whew, kind of rambling here:s


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

On the other side of the coin. Earlier in the year one of the bee magazines had an article stating that, 
"8 frame hives build up faster than 10 frame hives in the spring." more bees


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Besides getting smaller cells the main reason is the bees can cover more brood with less sapce between and less brood with more space between.

"...if the space is insufficient, the bees shorten the cells on the side of one comb, thus rendering that side useless; and if placed more than the usual width, it requires a greater amount of bees to cover the brood, as also to raise the temperature to the proper degree for building comb, Second, when the combs are too widely spaced, the bees while refilling them with stores, lengthen the cells and thus make the comb thick and irregular--the application of the knife is then the only remedy to reduce them to proper thickness."--J.S. Harbison, The bee-keeper's directory pg 32 

Other historic references to narrow spacing:

"...are placed the usual distance, so that the frames are 1 9/20 inch from centre to centre; but if it is desired to prevent the production of drone brood, the ends of every other frame are slipped back as shown at B, and the distance of 1 1/4 inch from centre to centre may be maintained."--T.W. Cowan, British bee-keeper's Guide Book pg 44 
"On measuring the combs in a hive that were regularly made, I found the following result, viz; five worker-combs occupied a space of five and a half inches, the space between each being three-eights of an inch, and allowing for the same width on each outer side, equals six and a quarter inches, as the proper diameter of a box in which five worker-combs could be build...The diameter of worker-combs averaged four-fifths of an inch; and that of drone-combs, one and one-eight of an inch."--T.B. Miner, The American bee keeper's manual, pg 325 
If you take off the extra 3/8" on the last one this is 5 7/8" for five combs divided by five is 1.175" or 1 3/16" on center for each comb. 

"Frame.--As before mentioned, each stock hive has ten of these frames, each 13 inches long by 7 1/4 inches high, with a 5/8 inch projection either back or front. The width both of the bar and frame is 7/8 of an inch; this is less by 1/4 of an inch than the bar recommended by the older apiarians. Mr.Woodbury,--whose authority on the modern plans for keeping bees is of great weight,--finds the 7/8 of an inch bar an improvement, because with them the combs are closer together, and require fewer bees to cover the brood. Then too, in the same space that eight old fashioned bars occupied the narrower frames admit of an additional bar, so that, by using these, increased accommodation is afforded for breeding and storing of honey."-- Alfred Neighbour, The Apiary, or, Bees, Bee Hives, and Bee Culture... 
"I have found it to be just that conclusion in theory that experiment proves a fact in practice, viz: with frames 7/8 of an inch wide, spaced just a bee-space apart, the bees will fill all the cells from top to bottom with brood, provided deeper cells or wider spacing, is used in the storage chamber. This is not guess-work or theory. In experiments covering a term of years. I have found the same results, without variation, in every instance. Such being the fact, what follows? In answer, I will say that the brood is invariably reared in the brood-chamber -- the surplus is stored, and at once, where it should be, and no brace-combs are built; and not only this, but the rearing of drones is kept well in hand, excess of swarming is easily prevented, and, in fact, the whole matter of bee-keeping work is reduced to a minimum, all that is required being to start with sheets of comb just 7/8 of an inch thick, and so spaced that they cannot be built any deeper. I trust that I have made myself understood; I know that if the plan indicated is followed, beekeeping will not only be found an easier pursuit, but speedy progress will be made from now on."--"Which are Better, the Wide or Narrow Frames?" by J.E. Pond, American Bee Journal: Volume 26, Number 9 March 1, 1890 No. 9. Page 141 
Note: 7/8" plus 3/8" (max beespace) makes 1 1/4".
7/8" plus 1/4" (min beespace) makes 1 1/8". 

"But those who have given special attention to the matter, trying both spacing, agree almost uniformly that the right distance is 1 3/8, or, if anything, a trifle scant, and some use quite successfully 1 1/4 inch spacing." --ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture by Ernest Rob Root Copyright 1917, Pg 669 
"With so many beginners wanting to know about eleven deep frames in a 10 frame deep Langstroth brood chamber I will have to go into further details. But first this letter from Anchorage, Alaska of all places. For that is as far north as you can keep bees. He writes, I'm a new beekeeper with one season's experience with two hives. A good friend is in the same boat he had read one of your articles on "Squeezing" the bees and tried one of his hives that way result a hive full of bees and honey. This year we will have eight hives with eleven frames in the brood chamber." 
"If you, too, want to have eleven frames in the brood chamber do this. In assembling your frames besides nails use glue. It' a permanent deal anyway. Be sure your frames are the type with grooved top and bottom bars. After assembling the frames, plane down the end bars on each side so that they are the same width as the top bar. Now drive in the staples. As I mentioned last month make them by cutting paper clips in half. They cost but little and don't split the wood. Drive the staples into the wood until they stick out one quarter inch. The staples should be all on one side. This prevents you from turning the frame around in the brood nest. It's a bad practice and it upsets the arrangement of the brood nest. It is being done, but it leads to chilling of brood and it disturbs the laying cycle of the queen. I am talking to beginners, but even old timers should not commit this bad practice. As for the foundation, if you use molded plastic foundation just snap it into the frame and you are ready to go."-- Charles Koover,Bee Culture, April 1979, From the West Column. 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

It's easiest to trim frames before the comb is drawn, and ideally before you build the frame. Sometimes top bars are wider than an inch, and you can trim the top bar to 1 inch wide if you haven't put the frame together yet.

However, I have trimmed frames with drawn comb. I scrape the wax and propolis off the end bars. I set the fence of my table saw to 1 5/16. I stand the frame on end and trim one side of each end bar. Then I set my fence to 1 1/4 and trim the other side of each end bar.

If the comb is wired and held with a nail in the side of the end bar, do NOT trim that side of the end bar. When the table saw cuts through the nail, the saw throws the nail fragments into your belly and it hurts. Don't ask me how I know. If you have a nail in the side of the end bar, just trim that end of the frame to 1 5/16.

I would NOT attempt to trim a frame that has bees, brood, or honey in it. Wait until a frame is empty. After you extract, deadout frames, or spare frames are the frames to be trimming. It's ok to have a mix of narrow and standard width frames in a box while you are converting the box over to narrow frames.

I would NOT try to use a hand planer to trim end bars. It's difficult to maintain consistency. After seeing my narrow frames, my dad tried trimming some of his frames with a power hand planer. He ended up with frames as wide as the top bar.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

There have been several articles published over the years advocating variants of the standard measurements of a frame. The January 1995 Bee Culture article titled Bee Space discussed using narrow gauge frames and referenced an article in the January 1977 issue. I first subscribed to Gleanings in Bee Culture in 1977. The article by Charles Koover plus financial restrictions inspired me to manufacture equipment, including narrow gauge frames. I went through three frame designs before I settled on the correct modifications. I have approximately 20 hive bodies using the narrow frames and have used them for 32 years. I also have used standard frames extensively for comparison. Here are my conclusions regarding narrow gauge frames.

Narrow gauge frames tend to bow and warp more easily during construction. This is because all the measurements for frame joints have to be reduced. The frame must be carefully cut to precise dimensions and assembled to hang straight and free. I glue and nail all frames to achieve this goal. 

A comb which is even slightly bowed is unacceptable. The frames must be wired to obtain perfectly straight combs. Combs built in unwired frames will result in one side being deep and the other shallow. The bees will only raise brood in the deep side. Pins and other methods do not support the foundation adequately to prevent this bowing. Plastic core foundations tend to bow too much over time though some of the newer heavy base might work.

Drone cells cannot be permitted because they will usually be at the frame's top or bottom edge. When a comb is removed from the hive body, bees will be crushed potentially killing the queen and causing excessive stinging because of the alarm pheromone released by the crushed bees. I renew the combs after about 5 years of use by cutting out the old comb and putting in new foundation. I use slatted rack bottom boards to reduce comb chewing and removal in the critical areas of the frame. The result is solid worker cell size combs which are easy to handle.

Narrow gauge frames with 11 frames per super for honey production are useless because uncapping is almost impossible. I use and prefer 9 frames in a honey super. The narrow gauge frames can be spaced to give this density. The advantage obtained with nine narrow gauge frames in a super is that uncapping is easier because there are almost no low spots in the comb surface.

The structure of the winter cluster is different on narrow guage frames. There is room for only two layers of bees between the combs as compared with three layers in standard frames. A winter cluster on narrow frames is therefore slightly larger for a given number of bees than in standard frames. This is expecially important in the early spring when brood rearing begins because the cluster covers more comb surface. This allows brood rearing to expand earlier.

Eleven narrow frames full of honey weigh less than ten standard frames full because of the bee space around the 11th frame. The combination of expanded winter cluster and lower hive body weight will result in a colony that starves out in the early spring unless two or more hive bodies are used for wintering. This provides cluster crossover space and enough honey for successful wintering. 

Spring buildup with narrow gauge frames is only slightly improved in my area because of weather conditions. The first pollen from willow is in mid February. The main flow starts about April 20th and peaks from the first to the twentieth of May. This means I have 9 weeks for spring buildup from the first incoming pollen to the start of the main nectar flow. With such a long buildup period, swarming is a significant problem whether using narrow or standard frames

The primary advantage under these conditions is that two deep hive bodies can contain the brood of the most prolific queen. I have had up to 18 frames of brood, larvae, and eggs from an exceptional queen. The two outside frames in the hive body were full of pollen and honey and all 9 inner frames were at least 70 percent full of brood. With standard frames, this amount of brood would partially occupy 3 hive bodies, but with narrow gauge frames, only two hive bodies are required.

One significant advantage is that when made to the correct dimensions, bridge and brace comb is almost nonexistent. Please note that some bee strains are excessive at building bridge and brace comb. The narrow gauge frames will reduce, but not eliminate this tendency in these strains.

Would I recommend a wholesale change to narrow gauge frames? No, but only because bees on them are less forgiving of human errors. They have slight advantages over standard frames in daily operation.

The standard hive body with standard frames has been proven in over 100 years of beekeeping. The only impetus that would cause us to change the size hive and frame we use today would be a dramatic change in the way we keep bees. Examples of such dramatic changes could be found in the operations of migratory beekeepers using pallet systems. They could use a square hive more effectively than the rectangular ones we use today. Also, if queens are bred to be more prolific with resultant higher honey production, the standard hive body and frame will show serious limitations. 

DarJones


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Fusion_power said:


> I have approximately 20 hive bodies using the narrow frames and have used them for 32 years. DarJones


Great post on the subject. Thank you.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

When running 11 frames in a 10 frame box does one find that the outer sides of the outside frames are unused? Or do they get honey stored in them like I see in boxes of 10 or 9 frames?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> When running 11 frames in a 10 frame box does one find that the outer sides of the outside frames are unused? Or do they get honey stored in them like I see in boxes of 10 or 9 frames?


I get lots of exterior honey frames in my deep 12 frame brood chambers. I was wondering that about 8 frame brood chambers?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Don't follower boards have the effect of an expanded brood nest area? Seems like I remember that. Or are they used to get bees to draw and fill the outer frames? I forget.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

Thank you all for the great answers. I saw some real informative feedback on this other post too.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=603963#post603963
In my hive brood boxes the outer frames get built out with some pretty deep cells and then attached to the side wall of the box itself.
I trimmed some assembled frames down to 1-1/4" last night to get started with for next year. As previously mentioned the space between the top rails on the trimmed frames is between 1/8" and 1/4" I guess I need a jig when trimming the sidebars. With that being said; will there be an adverse result from alternating the trimmed frames with the standard ones?


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_When running 11 frames in a 10 frame box does one find that the outer sides of the outside frames are unused? Or do they get honey stored in them like I see in boxes of 10 or 9 frames?_ 

When running a single deep with an excluder, I've even found brood on the outer sides.

_is between 1/8" and 1/4" I guess I need a jig when trimming the sidebars. With that being said; will there be an adverse result from alternating the trimmed frames with the standard ones? _

If you're having difficulty maintaining consistent frame width, you may actually want to mix with standard width frames. Bees can't get through a 1/8 gap and the bees will propolize the top bars together.

_Or are they used to get bees to draw and fill the outer frames?_

Follower boards are used to create a false wall that makes the broodnest smaller, so that it is easier for the bees to regulate the broodnest temperature, which will also allow them to expand faster. (as long as you keep babysitting the follower board)


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

When used next to the sidewall, the follower board is not intended nor does is function by making the broodnest smaller. It works because it leaves a dead air space next to the sidewall of the hive. The bees respect that dead air space just like a bee space and rear brood in the comb next to the follower board. One way you can use narrow frames is to put 10 frames in the broodnest and add follower boards of 3/16 inch plywood at the sides.

If you read the old literature including quite a bit by Miller, Heddon, and Bingham, you will see that several proponents of follower boards used them to severely restrict size of the brood nest thinking it would make a smaller area to heat and therefore easier for the bees to overwinter. This use was proven to be particularly negative for the bees. When the follower board was used in a position other than beside the wall of the hive, it was being used for brood nest restriction.

I've read above where some are cutting down frames to make them work. Please don't do this. Cut down frames have all the wrong dimensions which leads to heavy brace comb and propolizing of too narrow gaps.

Maybe I should post the correct dimensions and a drawing of a narrow frame.

Here are the most critical modifications required.

1. The top bar must be cut down to 7/8 inch wide. The rest of the dimensions really should be modified but so long as the width is reduced to 7/8 of an inch, it will work. This will leave 3/8 of an inch between top bars which the bees will respect.
2. The end bar must be 3/8 of an inch thick and 1.25 inches wide. You can figure your own way of making them self-spacing just as long as the final width is 1.25 inches. Please note that the foundation MUST be centered in this 1.25 inch width. If it is even 1/16 of an inch to one side or the other, you will have problems. Why does the end bar have to be 3/8 of an inch thick? Because otherwise the wood will bow and warp when you put wire in it.
3. If you really want to do the job right, it is best to make the hive body and the frame depth correct for a bee space. Most frames are cut to be about 9 1/8 inches. The Langstroth hive body depth is usually cut at 9 5/8 inches. This leaves 1/2 inch between the top of one frame and the bottom of the frame above it. Bees will ALWAYS build brace comb in gaps of 1/2 inch. Use your discretion about fixing this, either make frames 9 1/4 inches or else cut the hive body down to 9 1/2 inches. A small amount of propolis will accumulate between hive bodies over time which can make this problem worse.

DarJones


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have built them with all the dimensions reduced and certainly prefer them. However, Koover was just cutting down the end bars and that's what I end up doing most of the time as well. Yes, you may get small bit of comb between the frames, but it seems pretty irrelevant as it's only at the top bars and easy enough to pry apart.


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

KQ6AR said:


> On the other side of the coin. Earlier in the year one of the bee magazines had an article stating that,
> "8 frame hives build up faster than 10 frame hives in the spring." more bees


I believe this is a matter of 'less empty space' rather than more bees.

With 8-frame equiptment (smaller hive bodies) the bees have a smaller volume of space that they need to heat than if they were in a 10-frame hive body. The 8-frame hive will need to move to a second hive body more quickly that the 10-frame hive, both because the smaller box has less space and because the same number of bees will be able to maintain a larger cluster in a smaller hive body and so raise brood more quickly.

Having experimented with growing hives by always keeping them in a minimum-sized space using nuc boxes and/or follower boards versus giving them twice the volume they need (5-frame nuc in a 10-frame hive body), I can confirm that minimum space is best if you want to grow the hive as efficiently and quickly as possible (though this obviously requires more attention).

-fafrd


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_The top bar must be cut down to 7/8 inch wide. This will leave 3/8 of an inch between top bars which the bees will respect._

Why MUST the top bar be cut down to 7/8 of an inch?

I trim my top bars to be 1 inch wide. That leaves a 1/4 gap between top bars. This gap works fine for my bees. I have not found any need to trim my top bars narrower.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> Why MUST the top bar be cut down to 7/8 of an inch?


Because this is the correct thickness to make uncapping possible. If you have narrow end bars and frames spaced 1.25 inches center to center, a top bar 1 inch wide is just a tad thicker than the resulting comb. If you only use narrow frames in the brood nest, it is not much of an issue, but if you try the narrow frames for honey storage, you need a 7/8 inch top bar so the uncapper will slice across the capped cells. I routinely run some narrow frames for honey storage to get combs built that I then rotate down into the brood nest after extracting.

DarJones


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Because this is the correct thickness to make uncapping possible. _

Why are you uncapping brood? 

_If you only use narrow frames in the brood nest, it is not much of an issue, _

If you will notice the title of the thread, that is what we're discussing.

_but if you try the narrow frames for honey storage, you need a 7/8 inch top bar so the uncapper will slice across the capped cells. _

You must have a different uncapper than mine. I have not found a narrow frame with a 1 inch top bar with honey in it that I couldn't uncap.

Then again, I try to run 8 or 9 frames evenly spaced in my honey supers - whether or not they are narrow frames is irrelevant.

If I am trying to get comb drawn on frames with foundation, I sometimes add 1 or 2 frames in a honey super and run 9 frames....or I simply leave the outside frame of the broodnest as a frame of foundation. (This also serves as a way to help reduce swarming.)

The only frames with foundation that I will use for brood are the plastic PF frames. Many of my brood frames are foundationless frames - and the easiest way to get them drawn as brood comb is to introduce the frames between two frames of brood during the spring expansion.

If someone actually ran 11 frames in a honey super to get them all drawn out, I'd encourage them to use those honey frames as feed for splits, rather than trying to extract them.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I space supers more like seven in an eight frame box or eight or nine in a ten frame box. They are easy to uncap... but I agree the 7/8" are even easier.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Countryboy, do it the way you choose.

I prefer to listen when something tells me things are not quite kosher.

DarJones


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Fusion_power said:


> Countryboy, do it the way you choose.
> 
> Snip


From the videos I've seen, "Countryboy's" bees don't seem to be suffering too much.

BTW, I had a problem once while using kosher marshmallows in queen cages... the bees didn't like them.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

Its good to get several ideas and others experiences. That way one knows what to expect or anticipate and can adapt for their specific situation. It would be a mistake in my mind to subscribe to one opinion and consider all others invalid.
To me it appears that beekeeping is a very personal thing that allows adaptations and variations depending on what your goals are. As a hobbiest my style will be greatly different than a commercial beekeeper making a living based upon honey or bee production.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

Last night was our first time assembling frames. We made 1-1/4" thick deep frames using the wax coated black plastic foundation. This time trimming the side and top bars on the jointer before assembly. It went rather easy once we got into a rhythm. We used both glue and a brad nailer. Next thing to do is get the brood boxes converted on the hives. The new package installations will go straight into an 11-frame deep of already drawn comb. The overwintered hive will get converted to an 11-frame brood nest as the three year old frames are replaced.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Just curious how this is panning out ccar?

DarJones


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

Well, thanks for asking Fusion.
I believe 11 frame brood boxes are working out pretty well. At this time I have either five or six 1¼” frames alternating with standard size in each of the deep brood boxes. The comb seems to be built out much straighter being next to the already drawn frames. I really like the black foundation for easily spotting eggs. On the sunny side of my stronger hive there is capped brood on the outside face of the outside frame!
I have not experienced any frame breakage issues with the narrow frames. Actually I purchased a J-hook hive tool and it works very well for removing the first/outside frame
Interestingly enough, the two packages I installed are at totally different populations. One is just barely using the upper brood box while the other I just installed a medium super on to because both 11 frame brood boxes are covered with bees. 
I do not really have more to report since my experience is limited and the two hives are so different. 
My challenge to date has been having a hive make it through winter and into spring. In February my remaining hive just dwindled down to nothing and died.


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## zippelk (Sep 1, 2010)

A question for those who use same-size bodies and supers (all mediums or all deeps) like MB: if you run 11 frames in the brood nest and 10 or especially 9 or even 8 in the supers (or 9 and 8 or 7 for the 8-framers), I imagine you can no longer move frames of honey (or outlying brood) from a super down into the brood nest because the cells on the super frame make it that much wider, right? That would defeat one of the main reasons for going with all same-size boxes.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't usually go to less frames until it's pretty much a dedicated super, which is usually a full box on top of the brood nest that is narrow frame and the box on top of that which is not. I could still put a box of wider spaced honey on top for stores for winter if they were light and i was concerned, but the fat combs don't fit well, as you say. But nothing says spacing has to be a particular constant. I can pull three empty frames out an put in two fat frames of honey...


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

New beek question. . . If we were able to buy 1-1/4" frames (I just called a few places and 1-3/8" is all they make) what would you be willing to pay knowing that you wouldn't have to cut them down? Would you pay double? My thought is time is money so if we spend time cutting them down then would you rather spend that time on something else perhaps making more than a dollar or so per frame. The reason why I'm asking is I have a friend that has a saw mill and a wood shop and I know he could make them. I want to give him the thoughts so he can see if he could do it and not lose money.


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## oblib (Oct 28, 2011)

Well once set up you can shave alot of frames in short time so I doubt many would pay a dollar. But we shall see as you get responses.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If you shave just the ears of the frame end bars there is still the issue that you may have made the bee space iffy between the top bars. Fusion power mentions this. Another possible issue, just guessing but you also mess with bee space at the reduced with of the bottom 2/3 of the sidebar. Will that area get burr combed?

I made a set of 60 narrow frames from raw wood but *all* the width dimensions got changed to maintain bee space. picture below shown reducing lower width of sidebars. Top bar is 15/16" wide. Too much time spending jig building unless you were going to do many, many, of them. That might get old quick; in fact it just about did! 

With a box of unassembled frames it would not be a big job to run the top bars all through a planer to lose a bit of width and also make a chute to safely run the endbars through to narrow them.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

It would be nice to get one of the manufacturers to make 1.25 inch frames. I've made my own for the last 34 years.

The tolerances on narrow frames are very tight. 1/32 of an inch error can be a major problem in a couple of places in the cuts. The cut that makes the most difference in my experience is the groove in the topbar that the foundation fits into. You have to cut it so the foundation fits exactly in the centerline of the topbar. That means you have to allow for the thickness of the foundation. Other than that, make sure the end bars are a full 3/8 of an inch thick. Several manufacturers cut endbars at 5/16 which will bow in a wired narrow frame.

DarJones


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I usually just plane them a little on each side. You could do it with a table saw as well. I only cut down the end bars, although the top bar could use a little trim... but I have never trimmed them.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I was actually trimming topbars today. I have about 25 that I was given and I'm making endbars for them. I also have some older frames which I discovered had a naturally narrow topbar, about 1".

Another idea, I'm beveling the bottom edge (the non wedge side) of the topbars to see of it helps with moving over the gap.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Next year when i do splits im going to start the rotation of the thicker frames out of the brood nests and rotate in the 1 1/4" frames. I do like the 7/8" top bars though, leaves a 3/8" gap between top bars with 1 1/4" frames. Think i'll leave 4 - 6 of the thicker bars in the brood box though, 2 or 3 on each end, space permitting. Ill make 1 1/4" frames for the mediums if i plan on using mediums as brood boxes. The deeps I have weighed a ton, I might switch out to medium brood boxes.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

So tell me...with shaved down end bars...the frames become non-self spacing. Does that mean everytime you inspect the broodnest you must finger space each frame as you reassemble the broodnest? No shoving frames over to insert a frame as they would push against each other, crushing bees and queens?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

No, we're not converting them to spacer-less (non-Hoffman) style frames, just trimming 1/16" of each spacer so they sit closer together, 1 1/4" on center rather than 1 3/8".

By the way, Mann Lake plastic frames can be trimmed without having to worry about the topbar. I've done about 120 of them now.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Woodworking is my arena. It appears to me that many beekeepers have a table saw and some basic tools but not any real developed skill. The earlier post about getting a variable space with the cut down frames is a great example. Like drawing a picture getting good quality control is a practiced skill to some degree. Proper methods are the other ingredient.
You don't try to draw a perfectly straight line without an edge or ruler. You don't do precision woodworking without them either. I started to write an explanation but it simply is not going to work. to many details. I will see what I can do this week end about doing something with photos.

It may seem I am making a big deal about this but having spent years on woodworking forums I have simply sen far to many really grizzly photos of injuries from people trying to do far simpler things than this. 

In short tiny work better done with tiny blades. Router bits are a much smaller blade than a table saw blade. Other than that think along the lines of how to guide and control the wood as well as keep as much of the cutting blade covered as possible. You can't get cut by a blade your fingers cannot reach. You cannot get hit by a piece of wood that cannot be thrown at you.

Finally never stand in the line of a cutting blade. I know people that have had surgery to remove parts of their project form the crotch. Bits of nail are one thing. try a 6 inch long splinter of wood that decided to split off a top bar.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So tell me...with shaved down end bars...the frames become non-self spacing.

No. They are hoffman frames that are spaced 1 1/4" by the end bars.

> Does that mean everytime you inspect the broodnest you must finger space each frame as you reassemble the broodnest?

Never.

> No shoving frames over to insert a frame as they would push against each other, crushing bees and queens? 

No, they are up against each other. No more chance of crushing a queen or bees than with any hoffman spacers, which is to say, of course, they could get pinched between the end bars no matter if they are spaced 1 3/8" or 1 1/4".


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Daniel Y said:


> ...Finally never stand in the line of a cutting blade. I know people that have had surgery to remove parts of their project form the crotch. Bits of nail are one thing. try a 6 inch long splinter of wood that decided to split off a top bar.


Interesting. Most people will tell you to operate a table saw directly in line with the blade... You stand off to one side?

Adam


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Michael Bush said:


> No, they are up against each other. No more chance of crushing a queen or bees than with any hoffman spacers,


Well, not exactly. Actually there is about twice the chance of crushing bees since the end bars are touching together twice as much material.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I cut my endbars so they are self spacing i.e. have the bottom 2/3 cut down to form a bee space between adjacent frames. This is standard Hoffman design. Therefore, they handle the same as 1 3/8 frames with the single exception that if the bees work cells over into drone size, then you can have a problem removing individual frames. This is why I avoid strains that tend to want 1/3 of the brood nest as drone comb.

DarJones


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>there is about twice the chance of crushing bees since the end bars are touching together twice as much material. 

No, they are not touching on twice as much material. They might be touching for an extra 1/8" because of the taper going slightly further, but there is still the gap at the bottom as there always was. You are only taking 1/16" off each side of a 1 3/8" end bar. Or in metric terms (which are actually easier since they are all in the same units) you are going from 35mm to 32mm taking 1.5mm off each side of the end bar. This still leaves spacing on the end bars, still leaves a taper at the bottom (which leaves a gap) and they are still self spacing.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

DarJones, what cell size foundation do you use?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I misunderstood, I thought they were _not_ the Hoffman style, but full width end bars. My mistake.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I switched over to small cell about 5 years ago. Before that I used regular foundation from Kelley.

DarJones


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I don't normally resurrect old threads, but I am getting quite a few messages so here is a good thread to read.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

Since the original start of this thread I have converted all of my brood boxes to narrow frames. I have kept the supers to ten frames. And the parallel slatted racks are also at ten frame spacing. If the narrow frame hives have made a difference or not I am not sure. I have however been successful in overwintering hives a couple of years straight now. I have not experienced a problem with the frames self spacing, crushing bees nor the bees not being able to get around into all parts of the hive without trimming the top bars. I have not experienced a bunch of burr comb either. I did try using an electric uncapping knife to reduce the depth of the cells when planing the side bars but this kind of made a mess of the comb because they were empty and gave way to crushing and breakage. The bees fixed them up just fine though. I did have problems with the narrow end bars I purchased on line as I posted in another thread. I ended up having to buy a second set of full width frame ends and micro plane them. I am planning on keeping with the narrow frame set up and am actually going to try a tower hive thei spring. Thanks for bringing it up again Fusion


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

I was able to go to 1-1/4 spacing in the bottom chamber in one of my hives by shaving one side of the side bars for one hive. Obviously I had to put the frames into the hive aligned with the shaved side in the same orientation. I noticed that there was not enough space for the bees to pass between the frames, so I did a mod by sawing about 1/4 inch deep in the side of the top bar in 2 places, about 2 inches apart, and using a chisel to cut out an opening for the bees to pass. I used a combination of foundationless and foundation frames. I was very happy with the results, as this hive quickly built up. There was virtually no mis-aligned comb in this brood chamber.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you don't want to shave a little on each side, then you should shave all of it off of opposite sides on opposite ends. That way they are all still interchangable and you can put them in either way with the same result. You just have to make sure you do all your frames the same way all the time. When I've done this, I've just made it a Z so I can remember. In other words if you held the frame vertically in front of you would shave the right side of the top end bar and the left side of the bottom end bar. If you flip it around, it still looks the same.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Bouncing this discussion back to the top since it is winter and this makes really good discussion fodder.

I am currently building new and refurbishing quite a few narrow frames with intent to get 30 deep hive bodies equipped for use later this spring.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Why 11? Why stop with 11?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...because it goes up to 11. If that doesn't make sense, watch Spinal Tap and get back to me.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Mark, I'm not stopping at 11. I'm on my way to 14. The only concern is that it will take a lot of money to convert to square hives so I can get the extra frames in the box. But once I get it done, I should be able to run a side by side 2 queen system if I choose.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

Fusion_power said:


> I should be able to run a side by side 2 queen system if I choose.


 Hey Dar,
Could you please elaborate on your plan? Last year I tried a tower hive and I liked it. This year I am going to try two.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> ...because it goes up to 11. If that doesn't make sense, watch Spinal Tap and get back to me.


:thumbsup:


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

CCar, I am working through the steps to convert to a square single deep hive body for the brood chamber. This will hold 14 frames at 1.25 inches with enough room to add a queen excluder divider so I can run it as a side by side 2 queen unit. So far, I've found a place that will cut the boxes, tops, and bottoms out of cypress for me at a very reasonable price. I am still trying to find a source of foundation cut at 10 3/4 inches depth. I have a few emails out that should give results later today. At worst, I can always order foundation from Europe though the cost will be prohibitive.

I am attempting to set up a deep brood chamber similar to what Brother Adam used as described in Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

I configured the tower hive with two double deep brood boxes pushed up against each other. Then put a medium super with a lid on top of a queen excluder centered over both hives and set a half migratory cover over the remaining open tops of the hives. The bees occupied the super, I guess intermingling, but I did not get any honey due to the poor forage here which I believe was worsened by the drought conditions we have been experiencing in California.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

deknow said:


> ...because it goes up to 11. If that doesn't make sense, watch Spinal Tap and get back to me.


I tried 15 very narrow frames in a bass drum, but the drummer spontaneously burst into flames...:lpf:

Dar - thanks for resurrecting this old discussion. I've long wanted to hear your take on this. Do you believe that a commercial could benefit significantly from 11 frames + small cell foundation as you do it? If it could speed buildup enough to get more colonies increasing to 8+ frames to the almonds, I'd perhaps give it a try. 

Also, the square hives you mention - is that 19 7/8" x 19 7/8" x 9 11/16" for 14 narrow (1.25") frames?


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## Tom06- (May 11, 2013)

I built 60 narrow frames last year. It was easy to run the top bars through a lunchbox planner. Narrowed the side bars with a radial saw. Next time will build a carrier to take them all through a planner at the same time.
Going to use them for 11 frame bottom boxes with small cell foundation.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

KC, that is tricky to answer and there is a tradeoff in getting faster spring development but also getting earlier swarming. There is a set of conditions where it would be useful. If you are pushing the envelope to get bees ready for almonds and speeding up their development by a week would increase the dollars you could make by bringing marginal colonies to fully ready status, then it would be worth going to narrow frames. IMO, you could achieve very similar results by changing the genetics of the queens to Italians or even to BWeavers bees with constant brooding. The advantage of changing queens is that relatively little has to be done and it is relatively easily undone. Changing the frames will require significant labor to modify them and is a long term 10 or more years proposition to maintain. The negatives you would encounter include that swarming tendency will also be accelerated because the bees will reach swarming strength sooner.

It gets down to saying that you would have to trial a few colonies for a year or two and see if the differences are enough to justify the work of converting.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Sounds like a whirl for a year if I run them 11 frames from August split through the almonds, then pull 1 frame out in the Spring. Would they extrude the cells farther and render the 11 frame width non-reusable?

BTW, the current genetics are Italian / Italian x German local ferals. I will eventually breed separate lines for dry year and for wet year flower blooms.

Also curious if the 14 frame setup would have aforementioned advantages? I can only suppose that it would slightly retard swarming.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Yes, the 14 frame will have the advantage of narrow frames and the advantage of a single brood box for all the brood instead of 2 or 3 brood chambers as with current Langstroth equipment. It will however be a major departure from Langstroth size equipment and therefore must be all hand made. The way I am planning to build the box is to use Langstroth length so my current frames will fit but to change the width and depth appropriately. Seven of the deep frames will have almost exactly the same capacity as nine standard Langstroth deeps. Here are the advantages I am attempting to incorporate:

1. Maximum of 14 frames to examine to find the queen. This compares with 22 frames to examine in a double Lang with narrow frames

2. Reduce crowding effects so the bees are less inclined to swarm

3. Give the queen room to lay on larger combs therefore have a more consolidated brood nest

4. Use frames the maximum size my extractor can handle at 11 inches deep just in case I need to extract them

5. Enable use of a side by side 2 queen system by adding a vertical divider/excluder

6. Enable use as a cell starter/finisher similar to the way a Cloake board works except horizontal instead of vertical

7. Reduce the height of the resulting stack of supers increasing stability in strong wind

8. Re-use the existing shallow fully drawn frames that I already have in supers for honey production

There are a few more minor tweaks, but this list incorporates most of the good stuff.

The disadvantages I can foresee at this time are:

1. Increased weight of the brood chamber

2. Non-standard size boxes and frames with accompanying limits for re-sale.

3. Wintering concerns because of the large size frames

4. There would be concerns with handling equipment if I were running enough colonies to require automation.


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## Swarmhunter (Mar 5, 2015)

Took 1/8" off one side of frames on 16 boxes I built a year ago. Wish now I'd thought of alternating sides as Michael Bush does. Would of saved having to put the frames in all in the same direction. Bees seemed to like the close spacing. Only problem I had was 2 of the hives that weren't as level side to side as the rest. I've got foundationless mediums. So I've got some comb in those 2 that will have to replaced . I'm using foundation in the supers.

Looking forward to this season!


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

Fusion_power said:


> I use slatted rack bottom boards to reduce comb chewing and removal in the critical areas of the frame. The result is solid worker cell size combs which are easy to handle.
> 
> 
> DarJones


Do the slatted racks have 10 bars or 11? Does it matter?


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I believe what you are describing is the actual original hive size Rev. Langstroth developed. Dadant used to make the 11" deep frames and boxes, but they were not very popular because they are so heavy -- don't plan on moving them by yourself. 

I do find narrow frames at 1.25" to work very well -- the bees like them, they overwinter very well, and I get more bees for the same volume. Less burr comb, but I did find that it's really necessary to provide them some drone comb or they make a mess. All hives want drones, might as well provide them a place to put them.

I make all my equipment, including frames. It's not hard, but it is time consuming, and if you don't already have the necessary tools vastly more expensive. I have a fairly well equipped woodworking shop, so that's not an issue for me.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Charlie, the slatted racks I use are rotated 90 degrees with respect to the frames. They parallel the entrance. I don't know the exact number of slats, but it is probably 14 or so.

PSFred, Standard Langstroth dimensions are what most beekeepers still use today. The square deep boxes I'm setting up are based on the hives Quinby used as modified by Dadant. In older literature, they are referred to as "12 frame Dadant" because they were made as a square box 11 5/8 inches deep.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

ccar2000 said:


> I have seen a couple of posts regarding using eleven 1-1/4" frames in a ten frame box. I've read up on it some too and it sounds like a technique that I would like to try.
> 
> 
> I confess to using mostly western 7 5/8 frames; however, I run these same frames in the bottom deep box. When the bees need room, they will add on to the bottom to extend the frame. This works quite well. There is no reason why one can't do the same with deep frames and a deeper box such as you are considering. Making larger non standard frames seems, to me, to be a big PITA and this is a way around it.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Fusion_power said:


> The square deep boxes I'm setting up are based on the hives Quinby used as modified by Dadant.


Perfectly correct - although after using hanging-frame hives for a good while, Quinby then developed a standing-frame design of which LC Root's opinion was that it "cannot be surpassed by any hive now in use." But the standing-frame was never to catch on - with the singular exception (afaik) of the A-Z hive and it's immediate progenitors. FWIW.
LJ


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## texanbelchers (Aug 4, 2014)

LJ, is this "standing" frame different than the one referred to in the ABC XYZ book? That one doesn't seem practical to me, but my mindset is stackes of boxes.


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## pjigar (Sep 13, 2016)

crofter said:


> If you shave just the ears of the frame end bars there is still the issue that you may have made the bee space iffy between the top bars. Fusion power mentions this. Another possible issue, just guessing but you also mess with bee space at the reduced with of the bottom 2/3 of the sidebar. Will that area get burr combed?
> 
> I made a set of 60 narrow frames from raw wood but *all* the width dimensions got changed to maintain bee space. picture below shown reducing lower width of sidebars. Top bar is 15/16" wide. Too much time spending jig building unless you were going to do many, many, of them. That might get old quick; in fact it just about did!
> 
> With a box of unassembled frames it would not be a big job to run the top bars all through a planer to lose a bit of width and also make a chute to safely run the endbars through to narrow them.


If you are making frames by yourself then see if you can use my plans in the this thread:
https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...-foundation-less-frame-design-using-2x-lumber

Cheap fast narrow frames with correct bee space at the top bars.


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## Sour Kraut (Jun 17, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Does it really work? If so, Why don't people build 12 frame equipment anymore? Just asking.


BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT AND LOVE IT

A 20 x 20 box will give 18-1/2" inside, enough for 13 frames if you crowd them, or 12 if you space them out a bit.

I've run one colony in a 20 x 20 for 3 years, its my most prolific producer.

I'm taking 4 of my 'home' colonies to 12-framers this year, and am going to try two 15-frame ( 24 x 20 ) 

I may even try an 18-frame ( 28 x 20 ) if we have an early-enough spring for a fast build-up (or catch a really big swarm or two).

Supering will be by 20 x 20 x 6-5/8 home-built supers on the 12-framers, and 'squeeze-down-to-regular-size' on the 15 and 18.

Yes, they will be practically impossible to move, but I don't plan on moving them.


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## Sour Kraut (Jun 17, 2012)

David LaFerney said:


> Because more brood nest area isnt the point. The cluster is only a half of a cubic foot or so in volume. It can only hold X number of brood of any given size. By making the brood smaller the same cluster holds more brood. Or so the theory goes.


Two 20 x 20 boxes with 12 frames apiece gives you a nearly spherical area for the brood nest. 

This is how the bees normally build things, as a sphere has the greatest volume ( a.k.a. 'brood to cover to keep warm') for a given surface area ('bees to cover it'). 

You can observe this yourself, the center frames are nearly all brood cells, and the brood area per frame gets smaller the further to the sides of the box you go.

If we consider only the center 10 frames (outer frame is nearly always only honey and pollen stores) say 14" in width, then the volume of the nest would be 4/3 x pi x 7^3 or 0.83 cubic feet.


A good queen WILL fill up about 16-18 frames and your crop will increase in proportion.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

texanbelchers said:


> LJ, is this "standing" frame different than the one referred to in the ABC XYZ book? That one doesn't seem practical to me, but my mindset is stackes of boxes.


Yes, it is - although the whole system is shown more completely in Quinby's New Beekeeping (1891), pages 103-115. Poor quality of manufacture has been blamed for lack of uptake of this hive, but I'm inclined to agree with you: it's very difficult to embrace this design from a practical working point-of-view - as ingenious as it might be. 

However, for any hobbyist who is hell-bent on running with fixed-combs, the 'New' Quinby Hive would certainly allow them to do so legally, and the metal strap mechanism could be replaced by embedded magnets and a strip of steel to make construction somewhat easier.

Although LC Root was most enthusiastic about this hive's main feature - the ease with which it's volume could be adjusted - my own preference leans towards the construction of an over-sized brood chamber, then reducing it's volume as required, either with partition boards or dummy frames.
'best
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Reusing repurposed 10-frame standard Lang boxes/standard medium Lang frames you get 14-frame brood nest very simply (using 1.25 frames).
In combination with the follower boards, in this equipment one can run a 1-2 frame nuc or up to full 14 frames in the brood chamber and N of standard Lang supers above.
Brood frames are Dadant-sized.
The super boxes/frames above the brood chamber can be of any Lang sizing of your choice (deep/medium/shallow).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sour Kraut said:


> ....
> I may even try an 18-frame ( 28 x 20 ) if we have an early-enough spring for a fast build-up (or catch a really big swarm or two).
> 
> Supering will be by 20 x 20 x 6-5/8 home-built supers on the 12-framers, and 'squeeze-down-to-regular-size' on the 15 and 18.
> ...


Welcome to horizontal deep hives!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Fusion_power said:


> Yes, the 14 frame will have the advantage of narrow frames and the advantage of a single brood box for all the brood instead of 2 or 3 brood chambers as with current Langstroth equipment. It will however be a *major departure from Langstroth size equipment* and therefore must be all hand made......


Not so.
You simply work it like so:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gExG-W07Efw


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

When I reentered beekeeping and was drawing new equipment and reading all about the new ways of dealing with mites, I decided to give small cell a go. I found that the SC comb was drawn better when I shaved the frames and drew them 11 at a time. I do not believe it makes more brood when the warm spring hive has ramped up, but I do believe from experience that the bees can cover more small cells when build up starts and enables the bees to ramp up faster in cold spring weather. 

The SC in no way helped with the mites but for a small operator willing to pay the time penalty accrued with the tight spacing, it has definite build up benefits.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

When you get drone cells built on 1 1/4" spaced bars the bees will commonly cut down cell depth on the adjacent frame space. You sure as heck cannot pull them straight up as the drone brood interlocks the frames. If you give them dedicated drone building area somewhere it reduces the amount of drone spread haphazardly around but that does not go so well with 11 frames to the box.

The playing around with the concept that I have done says that half a dozen narrow frames spaced tightly in the center of the box and some spaced wider to the outer sides for drones, (but only 10 to the box), is more practical to work. My mix of bee genetics makes for bees that propolize with enthusiasm so I did not stay happy for long with the 11 frames per box pursuit.

I think sometimes we create practical difficulties for ourselves by the pursuit of theoretical benefits that might only happen under controlled or contrived conditions.

I know that I have caught myself doing exactly that type of thing! Perfection can easily become the enemy of practicality!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Fusion_power:

Thank you for your kind reply on another thread directing me to this narrow-frame thread. I sincerely appreciate your help.

I have dipped my toes in the water with narrow frames by introducing factory-built foundationless frames into my all eight frame medium set-ups when pulling frames for nucs and helping out weaker hives and have been generally pleased with the results. I've also loaded a couple of swarm trap set-ups for this spring with all narrow frames (i.e. 11 in a 10 frame medium) for this spring as an experiment to see how a prospective swarm will draw out a whole box of them.

That said, there is a lot of good advice in this thread concerning the cautions of using narrow frames and particularly of modifying standard frames to support a narrow frame spacing.

In particular, when I compare my standard Hoffman SG frames to the narrow wedge foundationless frames I bought, the top bar is a 16th wider (1-1/16" verses 1") and the bottom rail is an 8th wider (1-1/8" verses 1").

To potentially modify standard frames of this dimension to 1- 1/4" it appears it might not be as simple as simply shaving a 16th off both ears?

I do appreciate all the valuable input and experienced feedback I have received on this forum. I am grateful.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

I took the plunge and trimmed 9 frames down to 1-1/4" to fit in a standard 8-frame box. Utilizing the Hoffman frames I have, the resultant gap between both the top-bars and the lower-half of the end-bars is 3/16", and leaving approximately 5/16" from the last end bar to the inner box dimension on both sides.

Based on this result, should it be necessary for me to shave-down the lower-half of the end bars to assure 3/8" spacing between the frames at the bottom?

Thank you all for your help. I sincerely appreciate it!


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

Vance G said:


> ...I found that the SC comb was drawn better when I shaved the frames and drew them 11 at a time. I do not believe it makes more brood when the warm spring hive has ramped up, but I do believe from experience that the bees can cover more small cells when build up starts and enables the bees to ramp up faster in cold spring weather.
> 
> The SC in no way helped with the mites but for a small operator willing to pay the time penalty accrued with the tight spacing, it has definite build up benefits.


That's been my experience as well. Helpful in the brood nest rearing activities, but not with varroa.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Marcin:

Thank you for your reply. I sincerely appreciate it. Have you observed the bees heavily propolizing the gap between the bottom two-thirds of the end bars when they are no longer 3/8" spacing?

I am currently running all 8-frame mediums, so the hope is that the additional frame will help brood density given the fixed interior volume limitation I am constrained by.

Based on the Hoffman frames I have, it looks as though the finished gap is approximately 3/16".

Thanks again for your feedback. I do appreciate it!

Russ


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

Litsinger said:


> Marcin:
> 
> Thank you for your reply. I sincerely appreciate it. Have you observed the bees heavily propolizing the gap between the bottom two-thirds of the end bars when they are no longer 3/8" spacing?


I haven't had any issues like that.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I start with eleven foundationless frames in a box. Many times as the bee draw them out, I eventually end up with nine or ten in the box. I do quite a bit of moving stuff around and squishing the fat ones to be cut down by the bees. I like the starting with eleven and making the adjustments needed as the bees draw stuff out with the adjustments keeping the boxes easy to inspect. I haven't seen a big difference from when I ran ten as I always have to adjust in some way and what I start with is not what I always end up with inside the box.

I am still making the frames a little narrow and probably won't change but the end result may be the same as having nine or ten depending on what the bees do as they draw comb.

Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Marcin said:


> I haven't had any issues like that.





gww said:


> I start with eleven foundationless frames in a box.


Marcin and GWW:

Thank you both for your replies- I sincerely appreciate it!

I might "dip my toes in" and see what the results look-like. I also have some factory 1-1/4" frames with full 3/8" spacing that I might intersperse in for experimentation as well.

I am grateful for your input, and Merry Christmas!

Russ


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