# Another bee kill from spraying?



## broodhead (May 30, 2009)

On Friday a local commercial citrus company sprayed 1500 gallons of Admire mix on their grove that is located about 1/2 mile from my bee yards. One of my three local yards sits on my own property where my home is located. On Saturday I was inspecting my bees and noticed a massive amount of bees dead and dying near the entrance of each hive. 100% of my hives in this yard were showing the same signs of a major poisoning. I immediately went to my other two locations and the same thing was happening. The total number of hives was almost 100 in these three yards and all were being killed by this suspected poisoning. 
I immediately notified the grove company and asked them to come take a look, they accepted my invitation and I showed them the problem. They admitted spraying the Admire at a label rate, which I don't believe, and told me that they had done a application that differed from previous applications, in as much as this was a different supplier for the chemicals. 
I also called the police to have a report filled out as to document the event. The sheriff ranch and grove were quiet helpful in handling my request. I am quiet disturbed by this incident, I cannot even keep bees on my own property without being subjected to massive kills by harsh chemicals that are being sprayed by citrus growers at an alarming rate.
First thing in the morning I am contacting the State Of Florida bee inspector and reporting the incident. I have also gathered samples of dead and dying bees for their evaluation. Some of the dead bees had their pollen sacks full of pollen from Spanish Needle flowers. This is a indication of direct contact with the chemical as the bees were gathering food.
I have refused to give the grove company any samples of the dead bees or any sugar water that I have been feeding. I plan on giving these items to the state inspectors for their testing. I have advised the grove company to contact their chemical rep and report this incident ASAP.
There is another commercial beekeeper that located 160+ hives within 1/2 mile from me and I have contacted him as well to advise him of this situation. I truly hope that he has not suffered the same consequences as I have.
I will keep all you posted as to the outcome of the test results. Hopefully the grove company will step up to the plate and do the right thing.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Are the trees in bloom now?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

a post from bee-l Dr Jerry bromenshank about how to collect the dead bees.

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1312&L=BEE-L&F=&S=&P=21586

Now, for some tips.

If any of you find what looks like a pesticide kill:

1) Get an independent person to take the samples - not you, or your family, or friends. 
2) Freeze the sample(s) as soon as possible and keep it frozen.
3) Ship to an analytical lab on a weekday, preferably not Monday, and never on a Friday - the samples will have a better chance of showing up at the lab in good shape, less chance of getting lost.
4) Keeping sample(s) frozen during shipping is best. Blue Ice gel pacs may be ok at this time of year, but in heat of summer, dry ice is far better - if you can obtain it. 
4a)Never ship on regular ice - it will melt and the melt water is likely to seep into the samples, contaminating them.
4b) Dry ice sublimates, and the sublimation is faster in humid conditions. The rule of thumb is 10 # of dry ice will last a full 24 hrs, maybe more. Anything less and the dry ice may be gone before the samples are received, checked in, and put into freezers at the lab.
6) COUNT the number of bees in each sample of dead bees, record the number, and ask the lab to analyze all of the bees in each sample. That way, when you get the residue analysis results, you can readily convert the reported value to the amount per bee.

NUMBER 6 is CRITICAL. It is the easiest way of getting results that you can compare to LD50 values. You can ask a lab to dry the samples before analysis (but if they use too high a temperature, some of the more volatile pesticides may be lost). You can ask them to count out and dry a subsample of each bee sample, and then use value that to estimate the amount of water in the analyzed sample. But, to save them work, and to save you from extra charges, just count the bees in each sample before sending. Just don't contaminate the samples when you count. We put down a sheet of aluminum foil or plastic wrap, pour out the sample onto the sheet, move bees around wearing an untalced latex or nitrile disposable glove, pour from sheet back into sample vessel. Then, change gloves and sheet, do same for next sample.

A bit of work up front will provide far better results in the end.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

The correct path in Florida is to call your Bee Inspector who will assist AES in taking samples. AES will run the samples and use the results in their investigation. Even if you find every toxin in the world in a sample you take and send for analysis it is invalid in Florida. The state needs a valid chain of custody as most legal cases do.


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## broodhead (May 30, 2009)

Unfortunately the State doesn't work on weekends. Westerfelt has been contacted and AES is being called. I am very cognizant of the sampling procedures, I will be sending my own samples as well.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Don't work on the weekends? Seems like a case where an Apiary Inspector would make an exception. Here in NY Apiary Inspectors were told not to schedule inspections for Sundays, but we could still drive or do paperwork on Sundays. But it's Monday now, so I hope someone is out there collecting samples as I write this.

Best wishes.


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## broodhead (May 30, 2009)

No the trees are not in bloom!


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Don't work on the weekends?


must have a better union than you guys had in N.Y.:shhhh:


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

broodhead said:


> No the trees are not in bloom!


I find it a bit curious that you have experienced a significant poisoning event when bees weren't (I assume) actively working the trees. The result may be the same but I am wondering if overspray on standing water may have been the means of transmission. Is it too late to draw water samples from the orchard or perhaps you don't have access?


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## broodhead (May 30, 2009)

Good point Jim, certainly there is a link between the Admire and the bee kill, although the grove company and the chemical company are contesting that theory. Samples were taken yesterday by the State Of Florida and hopefully we will find out what the rate or ppm of insecticide was. This is getting old, I am thinking of throwing the towel in.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

Well i think, if the trees aren't in bloom the grower will not be liable, as they are following the label law.
Not trying to be insensitive but remember what happened earlier this year when some bees got sprayed and a big fuss was made? Now probably a third of the groves in FL will not allow bees on for reasons like this. Guess you got to pay to play is how i look at it. 
But after sounding like the enemy and a jerk i really do hope every thing works out for you broodhead and i am sorry that your bees got hit.
Nick


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

swarm_trapper said:


> Well i think, if the trees aren't in bloom the grower will not be liable, as they are following the label law.
> not necessarily true from the label
> 
> This product is highly toxic to bees exposed to direct treatment or residues on blooming crops or weeds.
> ...


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## broodhead (May 30, 2009)

Very good point on the drift and other crops. Well, the grove is surrounded by eucalyptus trees and they are in bloom. Would this be considered out of label application? I inspected hundreds of eucalyptus trees in bloom today, Could be that they never considered those trees as blooming crops. There were thousands of bees working local eucalyptus today. Any ideas on this?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> swarm_trapper said:
> 
> 
> > Well i think, if the trees aren't in bloom the grower will not be liable, as they are following the label law.
> ...


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

It would help a lot if people would use the quote code when quoting from another post.
Again, the simple code is: [quote*] blah, blah, blah [/quote*] (remove the *)


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I am quiet disturbed by this incident, I cannot even keep bees on my own property without being subjected to massive kills by harsh chemicals that are being sprayed by citrus growers at an alarming rate.

Welcome to beekeeping in the 20th and 21st centuries.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> It would help a lot if people would use the quote code when quoting from another post.
> Again, the simple code is: [quote*] blah, blah, blah [/quote*] (remove the *)


For example?


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

It seems to me that if your bees picked it up from forageing in their groves, then your out of luck. but it also seems to me that if its from direct contact that they sprayed on your hives in YOUR yards it would be a simple case that they owe you. ?? not sure how florida law reads?

Any idea how it actually got on/in the bees?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

swarm_trapper said:


> Well i think, if the trees aren't in bloom the grower will not be liable, as they are following the label law.


not necessarily true from the label 

This product is highly toxic to bees exposed to direct treatment or residues on blooming crops or weeds.
Do not apply this product or allow it to drift to blooming crops or weeds if bees are visiting the treatment <---they are responsible for the weeds also my comment at the <---
area. This product is toxic to wildlife and highly toxic to aquatic invertebrates.


better?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

> For example?


Like this.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

[Like this.]

Like this?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

wildbranch2007 said:


> not necessarily true from the label
> 
> This product is highly toxic to bees exposed to direct treatment or residues on blooming crops or weeds.
> Do not apply this product or allow it to drift to blooming crops or weeds if bees are visiting the treatment <---they are responsible for the weeds also my comment at the <---
> ...


Only slightly. What's with the arrows? <----- I'll guess and see if this is what you're trying to do.



> Originally Posted by *swarm_trapper*
> 
> Well i think, if the trees aren't in bloom the grower will not be liable, as they are following the label law.


not necessarily true[,] from the label



> This product is highly toxic to bees exposed to direct treatment or residues on blooming crops or weeds.
> Do not apply this product or allow it to drift to blooming crops or weeds if bees are visiting the treatment


they are responsible for the weeds also my comment at the <---
area. This product is toxic to wildlife and highly toxic to aquatic invertebrates.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

broodhead said:


> Very good point on the drift and other crops. Well, the grove is surrounded by eucalyptus trees and they are in bloom. Would this be considered out of label application? I inspected hundreds of eucalyptus trees in bloom today, Could be that they never considered those trees as blooming crops. There were thousands of bees working local eucalyptus today. Any ideas on this?


The last time I had a bee kill, they made sure and took bees with pollen on them. I would ask americasbeekeeper on here, I'm not in Florida, but I would expect that the label should be enforced the same. In my case they found them at fault, but didn't do much to them except they had to notify my 24 hrs b/4 spraying, and it was my job to protect the bees.
I was told to get a report from the bee inspector on the amount of damage and take them to Small Claims court, depending on the amount. In my case I never could get the bee inspector to write a report, so other than making sure the person doing the spraying gave me the 24 hr notice, not much happened on the first go round.
The second go round(not by me) was a person taking pictures of them spraying the tree's not in the orchard, they still didn't do much but they did start beating on the person doing the spraying. From when I had a pesticide applicators lic. is they can't spray or allow the spray to hit anything that wasn't targeted. 
good luck and hope you have better luck than I did.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

again from the label not using any <------ is like tying one hand behind my back 

http://www.agrian.com/pdfs/Admire_2_Flowable_Insecticide_(051906)_Label.pdf

Spray Drift Management
The interaction of many equipment and weather related factors determine the potential for spray drift. The applicator is responsible for
considering all of these factors when making application decisions. Avoiding spray drift is the responsibility of the applicator.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Broodhead
I had a bee kill in your area first part of Nov. Vrry little bloom on pepper left but grower sprayed grove 1/2 mike away with mustang from what i was told. Small grove (20AC). Damaged 500 hives. With some nearly totalky killed. My guess was drift andcl wild flowers. Where are yoyr bees? Mine were just off hwy 60 between i95 and vero beach. I did contact bee inspector...havent heard back yet from samples.


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## broodhead (May 30, 2009)

Mine are south of Oslo Road, just west of 95. This is the second time from the same grower. They destroyed 76 hives in March when the sprayed Admire while the trees were in full bloom. I was not notified of the spray, or were they offering to make it good. They swept it under the carpet. 
I should have reported them the first time, but thought I would be the good guy and take my toy and go home. That was my first mistake, this time they got me on my own property, more bees are dying each day, not as bad as the first few days, but the affects are still present. At least I must re-queen all those hives and hope for the best. I am waiting for the test results and will go from there. Bayer sent their bee guy in and we did an inspection together, I thought he was downplaying the event. 
The grower went through a AES inspection and from what I have been told they are boasting about how well they did, but they need to stay calm until the test samples come back in. I know from past experiences with poisoning from this very chemical that the real damage can take up to weeks to determine. Just today I had dying bees crawling on the ground.


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## swamper1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Broodhead, I am in St. Lucie County and had the same problem this past February. I lost 60 colonies to Mustang spray. I called the inspector who came down and verified that it was indeed a pesticide kill. He called EAS and an inspector showed up a couple days later and we collected a lot of samples which was real easy to do as there were mounds of dead bees in front of the hives. After waiting six months for a response from the state as to what actually killed the bees, I finally received a letter from them stating that all tests were negative as to any pesticide in the samples. I could not believe it. All I can conclude is that there is more money in the citrus industry than in raising bees. I talked to the grove owner just yesterday about when he was going to spray again for greening and he told me to just keep my bees away from his grove and he wouldn't be needing any bees in the future. His reasoning was that EAS complained about his abuse of label instructions and that they would be watching him in the future. At least that is a small token compared to what I lost in bees and potential honey crop. I don't know what the future holds for beeks counting on any orange honey but things are not looking promising. I know that if I have any more bee kills, I am going to see if I can send my sample to an independent lab for an evaluation. Anyway, good luck to you and hope you fare better with your bees. Dan


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

While I definatly feel for your, and any other losses, I understand the growers point. WE as beek, are for the most part TRESPASSERS, welcome sometimes, sometimes not so much. AS such it is OUR duty to make sure anyone who is going to spray is on the same channel as we are. I have given up good locations because of that. But I have also gained many great locations where the landowner/ farmer actually looks out for my bees, one even plowed AROUND a swarm last year for me. 
I watched MP video presentation today, it struck me the amount of vitriol spewed by beekeepers about farming, and these issues. Rest assured any of use are free to invest millions of dollars and pay thousands yearly in taxes in order to do as we like and plant pretty flowers.
Until then, WE MUST recognize we have to get along with those that are paying the bills. We ARE (for the most part) freeloaders and to be succeful we have to cultivate those relationships. Sending in an attorney ant the state AG boys is never going to help you a bit. Fighting fire with firer, just burns the house down.

Again< I am not lifting any blame from the sprayers, its a bad deal. no doubt. but really look at your options carefully and what it is you want to accomplish. the above post is a perfect example of how we make ourselves Persona non grata. And we are but a TINY portion of most AG. (despite what CBS news reports)


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

swamper1 said:


> I finally received a letter from them stating that all tests were negative as to any pesticide in the samples...independent lab for an evaluation


Dan, sending bees to a private lab would be a good idea. It all comes down to the $$ and the oranges are more important than your bees. The lab guys might lose their job if the results came out positive.


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## acbz (Sep 8, 2009)

GMCharlie, very true. Not good but this is reality.


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## xroads (Apr 9, 2013)

So what there an outcome to this story?


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## James Kellie (Oct 30, 2010)

I have had the same issue of bees coming back from our state being negative. Upon investigation I found out from the lab it was extremely important to get the bees as quick as possible and get them frozen as half life on the spray begins and the warmer it gets the quicker the poison disappears. It was frustrating because as in other states the chain of evidence had to be kept. so the Inspector would finally show up in a few days, put the sample in the back of his trunk, stay over night and finally work his way back to headquarters on the other side of the state, then set the sample on his desk for another day and the finally send them off to be checked. Naturally it would come back clear. We finally began taking our own samples and took them to civil court where we were succesful. Our state no longer has inspectors and I am fine with that. This was several years ago and the pesiticide used then is no longer used.


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