# does it work??



## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks,
A belated happy New Year to all.
The reply to this topic can be found in multiple posts on this forum, and several reports in ABJ; I especially recommend the March 2004 issue.
Best regards and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


----------



## hrogers (Dec 16, 2000)

Howdy Trapper --

I have just finished my third year of no
treatment except fogging with FGMO.

It works.

Doc


----------



## scottybee (Feb 23, 2003)

Trapper;
third year coming up . total of seven hives . 2 are two years old . treat with cords and fogging- havent lost a hive yet.
scott


----------



## fat/beeman (Aug 23, 2002)

hi trapper
I am a commercial queen breeder and been useing it for awhile works==its cheap a bottle of mineral cost less than $2.00 and I fog about 250 hives.
and if your selling your honey you can sell it as organic and get a better price at health food stores.
good luck
Don


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's not like the chemicals where you use it once and it kills virtually all the mites. You have to use it regularly. I think the secret is to monitor no matter what. Just use a tray and check it to see if it's working for you. I have heard people report failures but more have reported succeses. No matter what you use, you need to monitor to see if it's working for you.

I have used only the FGMO fog while I was regressing to small cell and have had no bad infestations. There are still mites, but the mite populations have stayed udner control.


----------



## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

I've been using fog only since acquiring my first hives last March and am thrilled with the results. I just love the idea of no chemicals in my hives since I am an organic gardener.


----------



## Kurt Bower (Aug 28, 2002)

Yes, if properly applied with consistancy, it works and works well.
You must understand that it does not by itself have the same knockdown power of a chemical. It is meant to be applied according to established guidelines. 
I am enjoying great success going into my third year.
Most likely those that are following the FGMO board will be in favor of this treatment. As with anything, if you look hard enough you will find beekeepers for and against.
Michael points out very well that you need to monitor no matter what treatment you choose. You are ultimately resonsible for the "Keeping" of your bees.

Kurt


----------



## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

how often do i have to fog and do i have to use cords?


----------



## clintonbemrose (Oct 23, 2001)

I do 503 hives and fog once a week and change the cords every month. It works for me and makes me money not having to buy expensive chemicals.
Try it and check your hives. You may find that you like it
Clint

------------------
Clinton Bemrose
just South of Lansing Michigan


----------



## Kurt Bower (Aug 28, 2002)

I would recommend reading up on FGMO starting with research fron Dr. R. http://beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/index.htm


----------



## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

so idont have to use the strips? and can plain FMGO be foged or dose it have to be mixed with somthing else? also can mites get resistant to it? thanks S_T


----------



## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

sorry guys i ment cords not strips and do i have to fog in the winter?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

As you have already mentioned, some people have said that FGMO did not work for them. But you'll see that some people are only fogging and some are using fog and cords. Again, I say, whatever you decide you're going to do, monitor to make sure it's working. If you want to just fog, try it and monitor to make sure it's working. If it's not, add the cords or whatever else you are planning on or willing to do.

I think there are climactic differences, genetic difference in the bees and the mites and other differences such as Screened Bottom Boards (SBB) that have an affect. You won't know for sure if it will work for you until you try it and monitor the results.

It's not like I only recommend this for FGMO. If you were using Apistan or Check Mite I think it is JUST as important to monitor the results. I've seen both of them fail too.

Resistance is hard to predict, but since FGMO is an inert chemcial it is doubtful that the mites can develop any resistance to it. It works by setting off grooming, making it hard for the mites to hang on, and suffocating the mites because their spiracles are smaller than the bees.


----------



## Kurt Bower (Aug 28, 2002)

swarm_trapper:

You only fog when the bees are flying. So the answer to your question is No. Do not fog during the winter. 
I was up your way last summer and I am sure that your winters do not allow the bees to be out and about.

Kurt


----------



## cgytm (Aug 14, 2003)

I am not sure that it really works up to expectations. What I can say (I fogged last year and had cords)is that FGMO will most likely reduce varroas rate of developpement. It helps but it is not a complete solution as "advertised". I would not recommend to rely only on FGMO.

Oxalic acid was also part of my intervention plan last year, and it will still be this year(may be also early spring). This is, by far, much more efficient during fall.

Thymol will also be part of my plan at the beginning of next fall. I may also apply "flash' treatments of Formic Acid.I will contue fogging anyway as it is so easy and cheap and seems somewhat usefull.


----------



## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

I fogged on Sunday, Jan 4 because we got unseasonably warm weather--upper 70's--and the bees were flying (I actually found some getting nectar from some prematurely blooming jonquils!) I would say that as long as they are not clustered and are flying, you can fog--as a matter of fact, I think it's a good idea.


----------



## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

but do i need cords? thanks Nick


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The complete system invented by researched by and validated by Dr. Rodriguez includes the cords. Some of us have left out that step while monitoring for mites and have found it successful. Others have used just the fog and had it fail. You have to take your choice. If you just fog and don't monitor and your bees die, you shouldn't be surprised. If you fog and monitor and your bees do well you also shouldn't be surprised.

If it was me, I'd use just the fog and monitor (it is what I did along with natural sized cells). If the mite drops climb too high, start using the cords too. Dr. Rodriguez says he has designed a tray to allow changing the cords without opening the hive. This will eliminate the main obstacle to doing the cords. I just can't lift that many supers on and off that many times.


----------



## Queenannsrevenge (Jan 16, 2003)

Yes, the FGMO protocal as developed by Dr. R works. The key is to follow the established program. I have had seen and believe. I think that there is one other key element that Dr. R does not take credit for, which contributes to the success of the FGMO program - it's consistancy requires us to pay attention to our bees and that attentiveness more often than not is the key to our sucess. We see key signs about the health and character of each hive and react to them in a timely manner. To reference a favorite witicism - it helps us to be "beekeepers and not beehavers"....

Martin
BG, KY


----------



## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
My deepest felt sense of thankfulness goes to all of you for your kind words about my work. 
I know that FGMO is not the "silver bullet" that everyone expected. I have never said that it is, but instead I have said that it is an alternative treatment. It is worthy of trying, especially when combined with thymol. I keep trying to design and develop means and ways to improve its use. This coming season is going to be interesting to those who implement my newest introduction for replacing the cords. 
Please keep in mind that FGMO-thymol combined does knock out mites and that mites will never develop resistance to it.
Best regards and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


----------



## Jorge (Sep 24, 2002)

I am sorry to be the devil's advocate, but i must recount my story (briefly). 
I applied regularly FGMO from early spring (every 2 weeks and, towards the end of summer, weekly) + cords every 4 weeks. During the entire summer the varooa count (using SBBs) was very low, rarely more than a couple or so per week. However, arounf mid September the numbers started to climb rapidly. I fogged even twice a week and replaced cords regularly but the numbers of droping varroa kept going up really fast to hit ~100/day in one of the hives. I continued the treatment but the numbers never dropped.I finally applied oxalic acid in december. I still check for mite drops and the numbers now are a few per week in the worst infested hive.
So, what to conclude? Since I did follow the recommended regimen I reach the conclusion that perhaps the treatment kept the numbers under control throughout the summer, but the fall spike increase was too much for the method to control. Why did the numbers go up so fast and so high in the fall? Perhaps there are neighbohrs who did not treat at all and my bees were "collecting" foretic mites in a rush. I doubt that because the beekeepers i know are seasoned and know better. I leave next to a forest and perhaps there are wild hives there that donated their mites in the fall.
In any case, as others indicate I think controling mite population is critical, but I don't think (from my experience) that starting to add the cords when the numbers are going up is unlikely to work. Additional methods have to be kept at hand. I like oxalic acid but I don't know enough yet to recommned it. The oils are another option I don't like because the can contaminate your hive products.

Jorge


----------



## Jorge (Sep 24, 2002)

A quick correction to my last mail: i fogged weekly throughout the hole spring, summer and fall and replaced cords every 2 weeks. When things went bad, I fogged more often but kept changing cords every 2 weeks. Sorry, I just checked my records. I just did not remember correctly.

Jorge


----------



## Jorge (Sep 24, 2002)

I just made a discovery that ay explain the low effectiveness of my FGMO treatment of last fall (see to last posting on this tread). 
To sum up my previous observations, until September I had no problems with varroa, but then the populations in all 3 of my hives went up, especially in one of them, in spite of bi-weekly applications + cords.

Yesterday I went to visit a neighbor who lives a couple 100 yards away and has 6 hives. He told me that last fall he had not treated his hives at all against the mite (his reason was that last year he treated with Apitan and lost all 19 of his hives anyway). Up to yesterday he had lost 4 of the 6 hives.
So, I tend to think now that my bees were overwelmed by mites they caught over there and that FGMO treatment simply could not keep up.

Do the experts here think this explanation is decent????

Jorge


----------



## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
Jorge, you are exactly correct. I have reported several times previously that overwhelming mite counts may occur during the last sumer months and early fall. In my report I told about a test that I performed to corroborate the fact that bees from healthy hives will rob sick, weak hives infested with varroa and bring home "loads" of mites. If unckecked these mites will be responsible for deaths of your hives during the winter. Unfortunately, many beekeepers will think that their past treatments have failed when in truth, they have done well but their hives failed due to overwhelming infestations brought home from neighboring sick hives. 
To Jorge and to all of you who contribute to this thread, thanks for your observations.
Best of luck with your bees this season. I suggest that you read ABJ´s March issue for more progress on FGMO-thymol applications.
Best regards and 
God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


----------



## briancady413 (Dec 8, 2003)

Dr. Rodriguez, thanks for continually both researching and publicizing non-toxic treatments.

I have read others talk of cell size reduction, or allowing bees to make their own cell size using, for framefoundation, unstamped sheets of wax or stamped ones with smaller cells.

Brian Cady


----------



## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

what kind of fogger and where can i get it from also where do i get the FMGO? thanks


----------



## Alex Cantacuzene (May 29, 2003)

Hello Swarmtrapper,
I found my Burgess Fogger at Lowes in Kentucky. It cost around $50. The main thing is that you don't use the included insect killer chemical as it might contaminate the fogger and that could be disaster. I use the FGMO from Wal-Mart as I am a very small operation. Be patient when first getting used to the fogger and when starting. The flame inside the wire mesh has to heat the inner spray tube first before it really works, however, also make sure that you gave the the pump one or two pushes so that there is oil in the heater tube. Let it do its thing and when it is hot enough it will come out the front and you are ready to go. Hope this helps some.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'd buy the mineral oil "Laxative" at WalMart or Walgreens or whatever chain has it cheap. I bought a fogger at Ace Hardware, but have also bought them online.


----------



## WineMan (May 16, 2003)

Swarm

Come spring the foggers are easy to find at Lowes, Menards, Home Depot and virtually every hardware store around here. If they dont have one, theyll order it for you if you want it before spring. Plan to fork over $50 to $60.


----------



## Jorge (Sep 24, 2002)

These foggers don't work well when the mineral oil is cold, that is lower than around 65-70oF. I keep my fogger in the house or basement and take it out immediately prior to using it. Alternatively use it when the outside temp is above that minimum

Jorge


----------



## Jorge (Sep 24, 2002)

Ok. So it seems that a hive can be overwelmed by mites that come on bees robbing from weaker hives. However, if FGMO is supposed to kill at a relatively high rate, shouldn't it be sufficient to increase the fogging frequency to at least twice per week to control the population? In my case that did not work well enough. I used oxalic acid as a complement but a little late in the season and consequently went into the winter with some varroa in my hives.

Now that the temps are above freezing I am treating again with Ox acid every 2 weeks. FGMO is out of the question with these temperatures.

jorge


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I see FGMO as a moderate killer of varroa and having virtually no impact on the bees. This kind of low impact approach does not have the knock down power the poisons had (at first) where you could use them once a year and kill almost every mite. FGMO seems to kill enough to keep the population of mites from getting a really good foothold. But now you add in a lot of mites from robbers, maybe it doesn't kill enough to keep up with that. I don't know.

I was using the fog only (no cords) in conjunction with regressing most of my bees. Some were not regressed and still the mite levels were pretty good I think. I did treat with Oxalic acid going into winter had a total mite count after the Oxalic acid from two treatments over several weeks of about 200 mites pre hive. I think a total mite load of 200 per hive is pretty good.

So I think it was keeping the mites down.


----------



## Oxankle (Jan 8, 2004)

Mike:
Tell me pleas how you calculate your "mite load". 

I have been using a screened bottom board with a sticky board under that. I only check it on warm days during the winter, but I am finding one, maybe three mites.


----------



## Oxankle (Jan 8, 2004)

Mike:
Tell me pleas how you calculate your "mite load". 

I have been using a screened bottom board with a sticky board under that. I only check it on warm days during the winter, but I am finding one, maybe three mites.


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Greetings . . .

At this point in time, it may be important to point out to all NewBEEs, that TWO forms of FGMO exist on this board. The first discussions about FGMO, on this board, are about "FGMO-Plain", NO ADDITIVES to fogger oil. "FGMO-Thymol" is the current version (maybe?).

FGMO-Plain is 69.4% effective (ABJ Sep03, P731) MrBEE and others, have been using FGMO without Thymol, and have found it necessary to ALSO treat w/ Oxalic Acid.

Thymol, w/FGMO as a carrier, may be more effective (based upon the effectivenss of Thymol). Other Thymol methods show better results; Api-LifeVAR, 90% (Brushy Mt Cat, p38) and APIGUARD, 70-90% (ABJ, Oct03, p821).



------------------
Dave W . . .

A NewBEE with 1 hive.
First package installed
April, 2003.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My theory originally was that the Oxalic acid would kill them all.







I think it does kill about 80% based on how many died after the first application and how many died on the second. But that figure is based on the total mite load being about what I killed between the two applications. Since 80% died the first application and 80% of the 20% that were left died on the second that leaves probably about 4% of them left. So if I found 200 mites average on the tray in each hive after two applications that's about how many there were to start with (give or take 8 or 10 mites) So I think from the FGMO, before the Oxalic there were about 200 mites per hive average.

If you aren't KILLING all the mites then I don't know of a sure way to calculate the load. But my mite counts before I used the Oxalic and I WAS using the FGMO was about 3 to 10 mites with most around 4 or 5 a day (depending on the hive) or so on a tray that wasn't necessarily sticky. It seemed to get sticky from the wet cappings the bees dropped on it though. And apparently there were about 200 mites a hive then.

That was during the fall, not in the winter. I'm not sure how much that will affect things but mites fall more with higher temps.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I wouldn't say I found it "necessary" to use Oxalic acid. It was two fold in purpose. First to measure how effective the FGMO fog and the small cell were against the mites. And second to get a clean bill of health in the spring. If I can get a mite count of zero I won't have to ship my bees with Apistan strips. If I don't then I'm requried to put Apistan strips in with the bees when I ship them. I'm hoping to get a mite count of zero. If I weren't shipping them and needed a health certificate, I probably would not have treated with the Oxalic acid and I would be satisfied that my mite counts were low enough to surive to spring.


----------



## Guest (Feb 25, 2004)

> Oxalic acid... to measure how effective 
> the FGMO fog and the small cell were 
> against the mites... And to get a clean 
> bill of health in the spring.

This is an interesting test methodology.
Most folks use the "Apistan 24-hour drop test".

Do your local inspectors accept a "zero mite
count" resulting from a treatment that is
not in common use in the US?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>This is an interesting test methodology.
Most folks use the "Apistan 24-hour drop test".

Yes, and last time I tried Apistan it didn't kill the mites, so what good is a 24-hour drop test from a chemical that doesn't work?

>Do your local inspectors accept a "zero mite
count" resulting from a treatment that is
not in common use in the US?

There are no "local" inspectors, just state ones and they are counting the mites not the cause of their demise. The question is are there any mites?

They will probably use an ether roll, I would guess or a sugar roll at least. I do not expect any other method. They certainly will not be relying on my methods nor my numbers.


----------

