# In the NORTH



## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Is there any PA. TBH keepers in the house and if so is it hard to do the TBH thing here in N.PA?
My wife built me a TBH and I'm going to give it a shoot this spring so what is the pros and cons?


Thank you.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Did she also happen to purchase a vacation home in some appropriate Malaria infested tropical climate where you could use it? 

Not in ol Penns state but the biggest advantage I can see in this design is that the skunks will have a bit of a difficult time banging on the front door. Might also be the case that the raccoons could rip out the top bars as a disadvantage.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

Why would a top bar hive be any different?


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## TNTBEES (Apr 14, 2012)

Not sure what the big deal is about having top bar hives in the north. I have two and have overwintered both successfully for two consecutive years. They just went thru -44 actual and -56 wind chill last week, and were flying yesterday when it hit +40. They take a lot more attention than langs, and they are swarmy, but I enjoy having them. I also have langs, long langs, and a couple of warres. My opinion is the warres are the hardest to keep going.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Birdman said:


> Why would a top bar hive be any different?


Think about how bees live in hollowed out trees. Almost always in a vertical cavity . If I can get posts from 20 out of a hundred of pics by people showing swarms living in horizontal cavities with combs built perpendicular to the ground before the tree toppled over I will be a believer.

The question is "what do the bees do when left to their own devices"????

Not to say it cant be done. The deeper the comb the higher I would suspect the overwinter success rate would be. *Bees have a hard time moving vertically in the cold.*. if the only food supply is to the left and right of them they are apt to starve out when the next nor-easter shows up.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Honey-4-All said:


> The question is "what do the bees do when left to their own devices"????


The only cut out I have been involved in in the last 20 years had bees in the soffit of a Church. That space had been occupied many times for 30 years. The combs were horizontally placed, w/ the brood between one set of rafter ends and the honey between another pair of rafter ends. Just an anecdotal case. 

So, I would say that bees do what they wish when left to their own devices. They occupy the space they choose.


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

Honey-4-All said:


> Think about how bees live in hollowed out trees. Almost always in a vertical cavity . If I can get posts from 20 out of a hundred of pics by people showing swarms living in horizontal cavities with combs built perpendicular to the ground before the tree toppled over I will be a believer.
> 
> The question is "what do the bees do when left to their own devices"????
> 
> Not to say it cant be done. The deeper the comb the higher I would suspect the overwinter success rate would be. *Bees have a hard time moving vertically in the cold.*. if the only food supply is to the left and right of them they are apt to starve out when the next nor-easter shows up.


I do a lot of bee removal jobs, I find more bee's between floor joist, my largest removal was between rafters, 11 runs of comb 5ft long. I got 180lb of honey from them. I have remove 3 from walls in 6 years. I also gave a price on a removal where the bee's were in the floor joist, the house was 28ft wide bee's ran the whole span between the joist. Bee's will live any where they find.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Think about how bees live in hollowed out trees. Almost always in a vertical cavity . 

I've seen many in horizontal, hollow limbs... granted the larger cavity typically is in the trunk, but they have no quamls occupying soffets and floor joists, and old car gas tanks, and old water tanks laying on the ground. I have removed as many bees that chose horizontal cavities as vertical cavities.

I've had bees in horizontal hives here in Nebraska and the survive at exactly the same rate as vertical hives. I have a top bar hive that has been continuously occupied by the same colony for the last five or six years with little to no intervention on my part. I would have intervened, but I've been too busy.


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## crabbcatjohn (May 5, 2013)

There's a very good reason bees use hollow tree trunks instead of hollow limbs.


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## TNTBEES (Apr 14, 2012)

I did a removal from a horizontal space this past year also in the "frigid north". It was the blackest comb I have ever seen. I don't know how many years it was there but it was several. Bees will do what it takes in the space they choose. They have a difficult time moving any direction when it is cold. In my opinion the key is the type of bee, and again my opinion is that carni's winter better for many reasons. I think the key with them is the very small amount of reserves they need to overwinter. They just don't move much. And they don't have a huge cluster. The key for the beekeeper with northern tbh's is to manipulate the combs in the fall so the cluster can only move in one direction for feed. My tbh's are made from 2x lumber so I don't insulate them, and they have upper entrances for ventilation. One of my tbh's produced almost 200# of excess honey last year. I am a "hobbiest" beekeeper and really enjoy the diversity of different hive types.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

The hardest thing for wintering a TBH is emergency feeding sugar. I make a frame and pour candy board into it. We have cold winters here, just not Montana cold, and my TBH is doing well in its second winter. In fact it was the only colony that survived last winter, the langs starved with honey next to the clusters.


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## crabbcatjohn (May 5, 2013)

And the answer is.....The rot that hollows out a tree almost always starts in the trunk. So. Even the very rare large enough hollow limbs for bees to live in were mostly started in a hollow trunk. There just aren't that many hollow limbs...But tons of hollow trunks..


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

the further north the harder it is to use a TBH. it can be done but it is harder. it is hard enough to winter bees up north without taking target practice at your foot.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

crabbcatjohn said:


> There's a very good reason bees use hollow tree trunks instead of hollow limbs.


Because there are more hollow trunks than there are hollow limbs, I'm guessing?


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## TNTBEES (Apr 14, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Because there are more hollow trunks than there are hollow limbs, I'm guessing?


I'm guessing also. Having a hard time following this analogy. Went from top bars up north, to where the rot starts in the tree. It would be real interesting to compare overwintered tbh's to other types by percentage of total hives of each in the north.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

My 2cents. I tried 2 TBHs for a couple years, died out each winter. Tried a long hive, it died during the winter. Langs beside them survived. They are here for free if you want them. I believe those bees in joists and attics, walls are warmed by the house/church and have an advantage over a TBH in the cold.


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## TNTBEES (Apr 14, 2012)

I agree that the bees that share a heated dwelling with humans have a huge advantage. However, I've lost langs next to my TBH's. I think it is a never ending battle and boils down to what does the new or experienced beekeeper want. I would never discourage someone from giving any type of hive a try. All they need is encouragement and facts based on experience.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

RiodeLobo said:


> The hardest thing for wintering a TBH is emergency feeding sugar. I make a frame and pour candy board into it. We have cold winters here, just not Montana cold, and my TBH is doing well in its second winter. In fact it was the only colony that survived last winter, the langs starved with honey next to the clusters.


Are you sure starvation was the cause, if they had honey within reach...?



crabbcatjohn said:


> And the answer is.....The rot that hollows out a tree almost always starts in the trunk. So. Even the very rare large enough hollow limbs for bees to live in were mostly started in a hollow trunk. There just aren't that many hollow limbs...But tons of hollow trunks..


Indeed, hollow branches tend to simply break and fall.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

camero7 said:


> I believe those bees in joists and attics, walls are warmed by the house/church and have an advantage over a TBH in the cold.


I wouldn't consider floor joist space heated unless it was between the first and second floors. Sofitts certainly aren't heated. Not where the church bees were.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

Sam Comfort has tons of Top bar hives in NY so it can be done just fine.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Honey-4-All said:


> Did she also happen to purchase a vacation home in some appropriate Malaria infested tropical climate where you could use it?
> 
> Not in ol Penns state but the biggest advantage I can see in this design is that the skunks will have a bit of a difficult time banging on the front door. Might also be the case that the raccoons could rip out the top bars as a disadvantage.


I have fence  we have bear.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Are those bars the right width? They look about twice the width of regular top bars. Unless the perspective isn't there.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Are those bars the right width? They look about twice the width of regular top bars. Unless the perspective isn't there.


They are 1 3/8 and on the other side I have half rounds to put wax on for them to start on.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

My TBH is going into it's 5th year here in Ohio. They do fine here, but never made much surplus honey. It was a nice learning tool but I'm tired of it. Langs much more versatile.


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## TNTBEES (Apr 14, 2012)

GLOCK said:


> They are 1 3/8 and on the other side I have half rounds to put wax on for them to start on.


1 3/8 is alittle wide in the brood area. they should be 1 1/4. 1 3/8 is good for honey. I haven't seen anyone use a rounded starter. Doesn't mean it won't work. I use a pointed starter and have never had cross or crooked comb. You are really going to enjoy the ride. Nothing like a TBH to get to see what bees are really capable of. You really need to carve out enough time to go through them every week.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The more of an edge you have, the better it works as a starter. I do not wax my starters and I recommend you do not wax them. Your wax will not stick as well as the bees will attach it themselves and can lead to combs that fall off the bars sometimes, and wax that falls off of the starters sometimes... they follow them just as well without the wax.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> The more of an edge you have, the better it works as a starter. I do not wax my starters and I recommend you do not wax them. Your wax will not stick as well as the bees will attach it themselves and can lead to combs that fall off the bars sometimes, and wax that falls off of the starters sometimes... they follow them just as well without the wax.


:thumbsup: thank you.
What do you think about my bars?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What do you think about my bars? 

Sorry, I'm afraid all the pictures are blocked for me, so I can't see them.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> >What do you think about my bars?
> 
> Sorry, I'm afraid all the pictures are blocked for me, so I can't see them.


they look like .75-1" dowels cut in half. should work fine i'd think. sorta wedge style


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The old Greek basket hives had a curve to them and not an edge, but I think an edge works better at keeping them in a precise location on the bar.


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## fruitveggirl (Mar 8, 2013)

GLOCK said:


> Is there any PA. TBH keepers in the house and if so is it hard to do the TBH thing here in N.PA?
> My wife built me a TBH and I'm going to give it a shoot this spring so what is the pros and cons?.


First of all, your wife is totally awesome! What a thoughtful and amazing gift!

I started last year with a TBH in New England. Unfortunately, a bear got my hive in the fall, but they seemed to be doing really well up until that point.

I think most of the cons I've seen have to do with weather. Can bees survive the cold living horizontally? Sam Comfort (upstate NY), Michael Bush (NE), and Christy Hemenway (ME) are well-known beekeepers with TBHs, and they seem to manage. I also follow the blog of a Swedish TBH guy who has no trouble keeping his girls alive. So the answer is yes, and I don't think the climate in PA should be a deciding factor for you. 

However, there are other real cons, though, including lack of standardized equipment, it's more difficult to feed emergency rations in the winter, they require more maintenance, and there is less overall support for TBH beekeepers.

On the plus side, though, I love the fact that the bees are waist-high and the bars are light. My back thanks me for that. Skunks and other creatures have a harder time getting into the hive because it's off the ground. Because this is a hobby, not a business for me, I actually look forward to doing frequent maintenance. I really get into watching the bees do their thing. My neighbors like seeing the hive, too.

In any case, your wife has given you such an amazing gift, and I hope you really enjoy it!


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Dominic said:


> Are you sure starvation was the cause, if they had honey within reach...?


Quite sure, however they were weak due to mites. So you could say the extended cold snap (6 weeks and never got above freezing) we had and the starvation were symptoms and the mites were the cause. Or the other way around. In the end they starved inches (or less) from honey, because they could not move to that honey.

Nor am I claiming that the TBH survived the winter better due to the fact it was a TBH. All the colonies were treated the same, TX free, and some of the lang colonies were from the same source as the TBH. I am stating that this was my experiance. My personal preferance is using langs however the TBH is fun, and I will keep it around, and perhaps build another one.


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## treeWinder (May 3, 2013)

Is there any PA. TBH keepers in the house and if so is it hard to do the TBH thing here in N.PA?

Just South of you, we keep TBHs and several Langs.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Glock, nice bear fence! Got any details on that?


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

Healthy bees and a well packed winter nest is quite important in colder areas. Any where that single deeps are wintered TBH's should winter. I think your best advice would be from the ones practicing wintering in this fashion. This outfit winters in singles located in Cut Knife Saskatchewan and may have some useful info on the web pages.

http://www.pedersenapiaries.ca/revisited.html


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

shannonswyatt said:


> Glock, nice bear fence! Got any details on that?


I have 6 ft. 14 gauge black coated fence on 4x4s with 3 rows of barb wire through ceramic insulators hooked up to a Zareba SP10B Low Impedance Solar Electric Fence Controller. Works great never had a problem with any thing .


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## chr157y (Feb 14, 2013)

I'm in SE PA, about 40 minutes north of Philly. I have 1 top bar hive. It is my first hive, and I've only had it for a year. Started it with a package from Georgia and they requeened 3-4 times last year. My hive is currently PACKED and the bees are doing awesome. They seem to be tolerating varroa and they have done amazingly well with the cold this year. I know there is varroa in the hive from the mess of melted fondant on the floor that I've cleaned from time to time. I've done minimal treatments. I think I'm going to have to split the hive this spring. On warmer days (over 40degrees farenheight), all 20 bars are completely covered in bees.

I'll be adding a lang this year with a package of bees from Sam Comfort. The top bar is all I know and it has been great! If you are going to do it, make sure you have a hive with a window. You can easily add one now if your wife didn't add one.

Just to touch on some of the comments made previously..... feeding is more difficult than a lang. I built a feeder. It's a trapezoid shape with hardware cloth across the front. As long as the temp is above freezing, the bees will move all over the hive to get food. I started my winter with a split cluster. The bees readjusted before the many snow storms hit. They constantly break cluster to go to the feeder on warm days. Really, the best part of the TBH is the window. I peek on my bees all the time... something you can't do with a lang. It has been a great learning tool for my first year. I have seen them dragging wax moths/larva and drones during eviction across the window. It's amazing!

Treating the bees is also more difficult with a TBH, that is if you are going to treat.

I have some shakey, but good videos on my youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHuO8_ZT3z_QXFi2gf30PGg


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