# NYS Pollinator Protection



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Pollinator Protection, it isn't just about honeybees, Honey.
On Thursday, August 6, 2015 the first meeting of the NY State Pollinator Protection Task Force met. Presiding over the meeting were Commissioner Ball, Dept of Ag&Mkts, Gene Leff from the Dept of Environmental Conservation, and Tom Alworth representing NYS Parks. Commissioner Ball hosted the meeting at the Dept of Ag&Mkts.
Those invited to speak included Jennifer Grant from the NYS Integrated Pest Management Program at Cornell University, Stu Gruskin, Nature Conservancy, Lauren (?) NY Farm Bureau, Stephen Wilson from Commissioner Ball's Apiary Industry Advisory Committee, Erin Crotty, NY Audubon, Rebekah Adcock of Crop Life America, Kevin Bowman, Bowman Orchards represented the Fruit Growers of NY, Margaret Brown from the Natural Resources Defense Council, Rick Zimmerman representing the NYS Vegetable Growers, and a representative from Responsible Industry for a Sound Environment. And me, Mark Berninghausen, President of the Empire State Honey Producers Association representing NYS beekeepers, as best I can.
This first meeting, one of three, was a listening session and a getting to know each other session. People talked about those they represented and about what they might wish to see in a Pollinator Protection Plan.
This meeting was recorded. We were told that the audio recording of the meeting will be made available. When it does the ESHPA will put it up on the Facebook Page.
I am not sure whether or not a written transcript will be made. If it is, then a link to that will be posted here as well.
This is a first step towards a NY State Pollinator Protection Plan that is supposed to address in some way(s) the troubles our pollinating insects are facing these days. Those things include the decline in adequate forage, the use of pesticides, the effects of climate change, parasites, pathogens, lack of genetic diversity, and poor land management practices. And other things.
You may make comments on this to me and I will pass them onto the Task Force or you may send your comments directly to the Task Force at this e-mail address [email protected]
Thank you for participating.
Mark Berninghausen, President
Empire State Honey Producers Association


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Interesting. Not even anyone reading this Thread? Never saw that happen before.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I read this thread _yesterday_, Mark. And as of the timestamp of this post, there were 60 thread views showing on the _New Posts_ tab that I typically use.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> This meeting was recorded. We were told that the audio recording of the meeting will be made available. When it does the ESHPA will put it up on the Facebook Page.
> I am not sure whether or not a written transcript will be made. If it is, then a link to that will be posted here as well.
> 
> Thank you for participating.
> ...


don't want you to feel lonely, could you put it on your normal web site also? I have to have someone else monitor Facebook. if the state would have announced the meeting with more than 24hrs notice maybe some people would have shown interest.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I read this thread _yesterday_, Mark. And as of the timestamp of this post, there were 60 thread views showing on the _New Posts_ tab that I typically use.


Huh, that's funny. Not when I looked. Thanks.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> if the state would have announced the meeting with more than 24hrs notice maybe some people would have shown interest.


Yeah, Commissioner Ball sort of acknowledged that. I asked him, as the meeting broke up, if he knew when the next meeting would take place and if we would get more than a week's notice. He acknowledged that too, but didn't say "Yes, there will be earlier notice next time." So we will see. And I will get the word out as soon as I know.

I'll see if Ben will put this on the eshpa website.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Interesting. Not even anyone reading this Thread? Never saw that happen before.


Okay you asked for it. 
Looks like the verifiable at a quick glance funding for this program is $562,000.00.
http://www.governor.ny.gov/news/gov...-pollinator-protection-plan-protect-new-yorks

I disagree with the spending of nearly every federal program.

These questions need to be answered first:

* Which pollinators are struggling?
* What is the value of each of these pollinators?
* What solutions offer the most value?

Honey Bees are easy
Suspend all nonessential mowing of public areas (right of ways, medians etc.)
Protective tariffs placed on forgien honey.
Degregulation of effective mite control products

The money from tariffs and eliminating mowing can be used to supply Beekeepers with cheap feed and free mite control (don't spend four $ a strip).

A couple hundred tons of sugar several pallets of Apivar and honey @ $3.50 per # will "save" a lot of bees.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Mbeck said:


> Okay you asked for it.
> 
> I disagree with the spending of nearly every federal program.
> 
> ...


so you only like federal programs that will raise your bottom line? if we Deregulate effective mite control products who will spend the money to come up with the new next one, commercial beeks? we already have Protective tariffs placed on Chinese honey hows that working out for ya, it's still coming in through other countries, and the largest importer of foreign honey is Sue Bee, a wonderful american co. 

which pollinators are struggling. Not honey bees for most beeks, only a handful are having a problem, maybe we should eliminate that nasty government program elap that keeps these beeks going and the problem would go away.:doh:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Mbeck said:


> Suspend all nonessential mowing of public areas (right of ways, medians etc.)


And you save the cost of employing a bunch of people to do this job and the cost of the equipment!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mbeck said:


> Okay you asked for it.
> Looks like the verifiable at a quick glance funding for this program is $562,000.00.
> http://www.governor.ny.gov/news/gov...-pollinator-protection-plan-protect-new-yorks
> 
> I disagree with the spending of nearly every federal program.


How did you come up with that number? I'll have to read the news release again, but I don't know that any money has been allocated for this plan yet.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Its at about the middle of the page Mark, but _Mbeck _is adding up funds from 3 different programs: 


> In addition, the current State Budget includes $50,000 to Cornell University for honey bee research as well as $500,000 for Cornell’s Integrated Pest Management Program.
> ...
> ...
> The USDA has provided New York with $12,000 in 2015 for survey related activities.
> ...


$500,000 + $50,000 + $12,000 = $562,000.00.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Which are programs which might provide information to the Task Force, but are not funds the Task Force has or has access to to further what guidelines and/or recommendations the Task Force comes up with. I thought that's what Matthew was referring to.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

wildbranch2007 said:


> so you only like federal programs that will raise your bottom line? if we Deregulate effective mite control products who will spend the money to come up with the new next one, commercial beeks? we already have Protective tariffs placed on Chinese honey hows that working out for ya, it's still coming in through other countries, and the largest importer of foreign honey is Sue Bee, a wonderful american co.
> 
> which pollinators are struggling. Not honey bees for most beeks, only a handful are having a problem, maybe we should eliminate that nasty government program elap that keeps these beeks going and the problem would go away.:doh:




No argument from me eliminate every program start with the Sugar racket. I've no particular problem with Sue Bee or any private group operating in the environment that is present. They act in their interest its expected


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> How did you come up with that number? I'll have to read the news release again, but I don't know that any money has been allocated for this plan yet.


Admittedly that amount as well all national funding for this project is a pittance. I've no doubt that you will represent beekeepers interest well. Taking on entrenched interest isn't going to be productive so maybe I should have held my tongue. Reducing the frequency of mowing etc. is something I'd like to be discussed and implemented.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mbeck said:


> Reducing the frequency of mowing etc. is something I'd like to be discussed and implemented.


In my verbal comments to the assembled, cutting back on frequency and extent of mowing and spraying of herbicides was on my list of things that the State could do along highways and in parks. Follow the labels laws. Leave the nectar and pollen producing invasive species of plants alone. DEC needs to come out to bee kills and actually investigate.

I called for more beekeeper participation, that the Local Clubs should be reached out to being as many of them have greater membership numbers than eshpa does. Even though eshpa represents more colonies. I called for fact based decisions.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Sounds practical and effective.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

when the insurance companies hear about not mowing roadsides they will say no because of increased deer accidents as deer cannot be seen as easy. the power of ins. co lobbying compared to beekeepers is overpowering to say the least. sounds good on paper but..


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No one said that the ideas had to be practical. I am sure that there are many reasons why one thing like mowing less may not be practical or as easy as it seems. Unemployed Unionized State workers for one. But, if there is a problem, we have been called to address it.

I don't know that there is a problem, really. Sure, bees of all sorts are having a hard time, it seems. But can we actually do anything meaningful and long lasting to make things easier for bumble bees whose habitat is being squeezed ever smaller and more northerly by Climate Change? Or is that something that Nature, with us in it, will work out on its own?

Yes, beekeepers are having a hard time. But has any grower ever not gotten the managed colonies they needed to pollinate their crops? Where are the numbers?

The IPM Program under Jennifer Grant suggests to fruit growers that they don't need the managed pollinators they have been paying so much for. I know that if an apple orchard is small enough and native pollinators are abundant, that supplemental pollination by honeybee colonies is not necessary. But some orchardists may find out the hard way that they do need supplemental pollination. Sure, pollination fees are greater now than in the past. What doesn't cost more? Other than fuel these days. I still maintain that pollination is the least expensive thing an apple grower pays for per acre. But if they don't need it, they shouldn't buy it. Simply business.

We beekeepers do have problems. Many of which are brought on by our own actions or lack thereof. We need to do our best and leave it to others to do their best. But, maybe we can see ways that other concerns could behave differently in ways that would make the lives of our bees and those bees that are native to NY easier. We shall see.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> The IPM Program under Jennifer Grant suggests to fruit growers that they don't need the managed pollinators they have been paying so much for. I know that if an apple orchard is small enough and native pollinators are abundant, that supplemental pollination by honeybee colonies is not necessary. /QUOTE]
> 
> definitely a true statement and I worked with a med. size orchard years ago, but they have to change how and when they spray so that the native pollinators are not killed. If you have ever attended a required retraining class for a pesticide lic. , until the old applicators are retired you are shoveling manure up hill. :no: but maybe the new generation can learn.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wildbranch2007 said:


> sqkcrk said:
> 
> 
> > > The IPM Program under Jennifer Grant suggests to fruit growers that they don't need the managed pollinators they have been paying so much for.
> ...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Actually Brian, 75% of pesticide use in NY is in urban environments, not farms.

No one is calling for farmers to stop using pesticides. That would be ridiculous. The call is for following the label laws. Acting responsibly. The IPM Program can help vegetable and fruit growers to manage their pesticide use to the betterment of native pollinators, which may aid in vegetable and fruit production and may help the bees in beehives fair better too.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Actually Brian, 75% of pesticide use in NY is in urban environments,


On what. 90% of the people in urban environments don't have vegetable gardens. Gardens require work, Applying pesticides require work. Most people avoid work and go to the grocery store or farmers markets. I find that number very difficult to believe.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Acebird said:


> On what. 90% of the people in urban environments don't have vegetable gardens. Gardens require work, Applying pesticides require work. Most people avoid work and go to the grocery store or farmers markets. I find that number very difficult to believe.


you have heard of chemlawn etc Brian. Most good farmers that I have know, don't want to spray any more than they have to, you know, it comes out of their bottom line.

I'll give you a great example, I pollinated for a truck farmer. The would plant acres of peppers, around the outer edge of the pepper they would plant 4 rows of hot peppers.
I asked they guy why, he said the bugs liked the hot peppers better, he only had to spray the outer 4 rows when his bug guy saw a problem. ie costs are lower. that's also what they call IPM. I was the bee guy, the other guy was the bug guy.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wildbranch2007 said:


> you have heard of chemlawn etc Brian.


Yes I have but most would use herbicides and fertilizers. I suppose some might use it on grubs but I know not why.

Keep in mind that those wasting money on their lawns are up in that 2% bracket. Not a whole lot of those in NY.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> On what. 90% of the people in urban environments don't have vegetable gardens. Gardens require work, Applying pesticides require work. Most people avoid work and go to the grocery store or farmers markets. I find that number very difficult to believe.


Lawns. "Crop Life America" and "Responsible Industry for a Sound Environment" two AgChem representative organizations said so at the meeting. Turf requires constant applications of chemicals to keep them weed free. Lawns and Golf Courses.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Is this pollinator protection program going after herbicides and fertilizers or just pesticides? I am not saying these chemicals are not bad for the ecology but there is not much impact on pollinators.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Is this pollinator protection program going after herbicides and fertilizers or just pesticides? I am not saying these chemicals are not bad for the ecology but there is not much impact on pollinators.


:scratch: :s

So when herbicides are used to kill the (so-called weeds) plants that provide pollen and nectar (i.e. _FOOD_) for pollinators you don't think is has much impact on those pollinators ability to survive and reproduce?!?  Really???


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You haven't a clue what is relevant in NYS. The gulf courses will exist and lawns will exist. Which will not supply any forage to bees if there was not one gram of chemicals used on either.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I always feel so much better having talked to you, Brian. You have so much to teach me. Thank you for contributing to the discussion.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Acebird said:


> You haven't a clue what is relevant in NYS. The gulf courses will exist and lawns will exist. Which will not supply any forage to bees if there was not one gram of chemicals used on either.


it's unfathomable to me how absolutely clueless you are on such a wide variety of topics.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I am not saying these chemicals are not bad for the ecology but there is not much impact on pollinators.


Herbicides do have an impact on plants that bees forage on. The Plan has not been built yet, Brian. Going after? I don't think that the Plan is supposed to "go after" anything or anyone. Other than perhaps how State Government Departments act and behave. But we will see.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> You haven't a clue what is relevant in NYS.


I'm waiting for Acebird to _coherently _explain how the relevant pollinator issues in New York state are materially different from most of the other states in the union.


I'm _not _holding my breath! :lpf:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Herbicides do have an impact on plants that bees forage on.


Of course they do but if they are applied on a mowed lawn there are no plants for the bees to begin with. So if they are eliminated the net gain is zero.

Mark, take a look at Little Falls. There is a war on knot weed. Yes it is an invasive weed but they are trying to eradicate it (they are not winning). It is a po dunk city that will not make or break the state but somebody has got everybody riled up on getting rid of knot weed. They already used a herbicide. It laughed at them.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

That is one of the things mentioned as something NYS Beekeepers would want curtailed, the attempted eradication of invasive plant species that are beneficial to pollinators, both Native bees and honeybees.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Yeah, but if you have a garden and you are battling this weed you have a different viewpoint.


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## Dmlehman (May 30, 2015)

Mbeck said:


> Okay you asked for it.
> Looks like the verifiable at a quick glance funding for this program is $562,000.00.
> http://www.governor.ny.gov/news/gov...-pollinator-protection-plan-protect-new-yorks
> 
> ...


Deregulation doesn't solve anything. All it does is allow the lazy to overuse. Overuse quickly leads to lack of efficacy which in ultimately eliminates a formerly useful proflduct from the dwindling arsenal.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

now I'm starting to see why the Pollinator protection and AIAC don't let the public speak at the meetings.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

hahaha, good one, Mike. Actually there were some unsolicited "peanut gallery" comments at the PPTF meeting. Jim Doan for one and a woman who I don't know but seemed to be an environmentalist, perhaps, threw in some comments during the time people spoke and/or in between speakers. Just short comments. One was in reply to my comment that no one mentioned bats as pollinators. No bats in NY do pollination, apparently.

This topic has gotten more response here than it has on other Forums/Listserves that I Posted this on. I find that interesting that this topic is of more concern or interest to the people who Post on beesource than some other places. I wonder what that says.

I sent the report of the meeting, just like what I Posted here, to a number of Local Club's contact persons (not every club has a contact person easily found) and have had almost no response, other than Mike passing it on to members of clubs he belongs to.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> I sent the report of the meeting, just like what I Posted here, to a number of Local Club's contact persons (not every club has a contact person easily found) and have had almost no response, other than Mike passing it on to members of clubs he belongs to.


I didn't get any responses, but then again I never do, nor do I expect any. We have a meeting Wed. I'll ask for comments and see if I get any. Hey Brian, if you are going to the mid york open buffet tues, how about doing the same and reporting back?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

When and where is that buffet? A week from today? Is that when it is? Where?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

When it comes to things like this, Pollinator Protection, I wonder how much we are just confirming our own bias. That pollinators are in need of protection and that we can protect them. I am not all that convinced that either of those statements are true. 

There is some truth, I believe, to the fact that these are trying times for pollinators. Statistics from studies show us the facts of the situation. But how dire, or whether it is dire, is open to debate, should anyone wish to debate what the facts, the data, show us and means. 

How do any of us really know what impact we have on the environment and what is found in the environment in which everything living lives? I recall a time when eating fish caught in the Potomac River was strongly cautioned against and the recommendations were, if you felt you had to eat the fish you caught from the Potomac, that you not eat very much of it, very often, and not at all if you were pregnant, because of the Mercury, I believe. That river has been cleaned up significantly.

So people with vision and a goal can change the way things are. But having a clear understanding of the way things are and a clear vision of where we want to go, along with the feasibility of being able to afford the costs, is necessary before people are asked to go on this journey. An awesome task.


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## Mountainhousehoney (Apr 11, 2014)

wildbranch2007 said:


> sqkcrk said:
> 
> 
> > The IPM Program under Jennifer Grant suggests to fruit growers that they don't need the managed pollinators they have been paying so much for. I know that if an apple orchard is small enough and native pollinators are abundant, that supplemental pollination by honeybee colonies is not necessary. /QUOTE]
> ...


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> When and where is that buffet? A week from today? Is that when it is? Where?


the mid york bee club meets tonight it's a picnic, everyone brings a dish, the where is interesting, I deleted the email, the web site doesn't say where it is, I can drive there but have no clue what the roads are called. best I can do from the ESHPA site  At the Co-Operative Extension in Oriskany


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I had no idea that anyone was hand pollinating in NY. What fruit are they doing that on? Pears? Peaches? What?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I thought that much of the hand pollinating that we hear about (specifically from china) was really about specific crossings for a few premium varieties.

I guess I've assumed that was what most of the hand pollination was about, but I could very well be wrong.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> . That pollinators are in need of protection and that we can protect them. I am not all that convinced that either of those statements are true.


For the most part they can be protected. I had problems with the local apple grower spraying illegally, long story short, before when the Govt. actually would take action on pesticide kills, they took the orchard person under their wing and forced him to abide by the label. after a few years even the neighbors started commenting on the fact that they were seeing bumble bees and other pollinators that they couldn;t remember seeing in the past. And it only affected one application of pesticides a year, and the apple grower even admitted years later that his yield went up in that orchard. now with the new systemics, who knows?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

We always need to be mindful and reminded of what is around us and how we each effect each other, and not just humans.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Mountainhousehoney said:


> wildbranch2007 said:
> 
> 
> > Many of the orchards here (northern Columbia County) are phasing out renting bees and are hiring migrants to hand cross-pollinate.
> ...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wildbranch2007 said:


> the mid york bee club meets tonight it's a picnic, everyone brings a dish, the where is interesting, I deleted the email, the web site doesn't say where it is, I can drive there but have no clue what the roads are called. best I can do from the ESHPA site  At the Co-Operative Extension in Oriskany


Judd road, just past the old airport.

I can't make it and my wife hates picnics but I copied Marks first post and sent it to Conrad and the members. No guarantees on responses... be careful what you wish for.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> So people with vision and a goal can change the way things are. But having a clear understanding of the way things are and a clear vision of where we want to go, along with the feasibility of being able to afford the costs, is necessary before people are asked to go on this journey. An awesome task.


When government is involved it is too easy for it to turn into a political football. I would ignore the government approach and try to get data collected by Universities and schools and then use the media to educate the public. Once the public is educated it is much easier to get the government to move on something but you usually don't have to.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I think there's some pretty good evidence of a substantial decline in Monarch butterfly populations. There is also evidence of bumble bee population declines. Both can, at some level, be tied to the use of herbicides. In my part of the country many of our native pollinators are very small, solitary bees that build their nests underground. Applications of herbicides and fertilizers and regular mowing have largely eliminated them in urban areas. Is there anything we can or should do to change those declines? I don't know. I am sad to see the major loss of Monarchs. It was always such an amazing story about their grand migration. Will their loss have an impact on humans? Maybe not....but those who suggest that they may be the canary in the coal mine might be onto something.


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## Dmlehman (May 30, 2015)

Acebird said:


> When government is involved it is too easy for it to turn into a political football. I would ignore the government approach and try to get data collected by Universities and schools and then use the media to educate the public. Once the public is educated it is much easier to get the government to move on something but you usually don't have to.


You must realize that university research is often funded by the government. And, researchers live and die by their ability to obtain grants. The idea that grant funded researchers produce magically more reliable and for some unexplainable reason present unbiased views is laughable.


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## Dmlehman (May 30, 2015)

beemandan said:


> I think there's some pretty good evidence of a substantial decline in Monarch butterfly populations. There is also evidence of bumble bee population declines. Both can, at some level, be tied to the use of herbicides. In my part of the country many of our native pollinators are very small, solitary bees that build their nests underground. Applications of herbicides and fertilizers and regular mowing have largely eliminated them in urban areas. Is there anything we can or should do to change those declines? I don't know. I am sad to see the major loss of Monarchs. It was always such an amazing story about their grand migration. Will their loss have an impact on humans? Maybe not....but those who suggest that they may be the canary in the coal mine might be onto something.


The evidence for declining native populations is complex. The lack of long term census data limits our understanding. That said, there is very convincing evidence that local extinctions of some bumble bees has occurred.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Dmlehman said:


> That said, there is very convincing evidence that local extinctions of some bumble bees has occurred.


Your sense is that the reported decline of Monarchs is not convincing?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Judd road, just past the old airport.
> 
> I can't make it and my wife hates picnics but I copied Marks first post and sent it to Conrad and the members. No guarantees on responses... be careful what you wish for.


Does MidYork have a website? All I have seen was a Facebook Page. If I recall correctly.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Dmlehman said:


> You must realize that university research is often funded by the government. And, researchers live and die by their ability to obtain grants. The idea that grant funded researchers produce magically more reliable and for some unexplainable reason present unbiased views is laughable.


Funding research was one of the questions posed by the Task Force. And the IPM Program from Cornell University was the lead batter in the line up of speakers at the meeting. The Government is what is spearheading this effort. W/out DEC, Ag&Mkts, and Parks there wouldn't be a Pollinator Protection Task Force. So I really don't know what Brian thinks would be the force behind the effort. And this is supposed to be about what State Government will be doing to protect pollinators.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Does MidYork have a website? All I have seen was a Facebook Page. If I recall correctly.


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/midyorkbeekeepers/conversations/messages


not sure if you have to be a member to get in.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Funding research was one of the questions posed by the Task Force. And the IPM Program from Cornell University was the lead batter in the line up of speakers at the meeting. The Government is what is spearheading this effort. W/out DEC, Ag&Mkts, and Parks there wouldn't be a Pollinator Protection Task Force. So I really don't know what Brian thinks would be the force behind the effort. And this is supposed to be about what State Government will be doing to protect pollinators.


do you feel/fear that the reason that this task force is in place is to do as the AHPA suggests? they seem to think(and I agree) that the purpose is to allow the changing of the labels of the pesticides to say that 2 days notice to registered beeks is sufficient time to get them to move the hives b/4 they spray. If the hives are not removed the beek has no recourse for losses?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

This fear has been mentioned to me by a couple of beekeepers. The possibility has not come up yet. 

I do not think that is why the task force was set up. Not yet.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Mark, that is part of the national plan...that plan covers bees on pollination contracts where pesticides are being used. The state plans are being drafted to cover other situations.

But that 'fear' is already a reality for your bees if on pollination contract in any state.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> The Government is what is spearheading this effort. W/out DEC, Ag&Mkts, and Parks there wouldn't be a Pollinator Protection Task Force.


I don't have much hope for it. The DEC really? You would have more of an impact on pollinators if you stopped Hydrofracking in the state. The government doesn't care about pollinators. Your getting your tail wagged Mark.

The force behind the effort would be people who are interested in ecology. Which would be a much larger group than just beekeepers who only care about honey bees.
Universities are funded by people with lots of money. Grants add a little but the people make the University prosper. You have to get the people with money (power) to push government in the right direction. If the program is initiated by government, someone (group) has already started the tail wagging and it is not what you think. I would be very leery of the title.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wildbranch2007 said:


> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/midyorkbeekeepers/conversations/messages
> 
> 
> not sure if you have to be a member to get in.


Yes you do. My email got bumped.

If you want Conrads email PM me and I will give it to you.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The fear, as I understand it, is that a landowner can use a pesticide contrary to the directions on the label if they tell a beekeeper to move their hives. And if the beekeeper doesn't or can't then the person doing the spraying won't be held libel for damages.

Who can do that? Move hives with a honey crop on? And where to?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Who can do that? Move hives with a honey crop on? And where to?


I feel for you Mark. A beekeeper is really vulnerable to the land owner on what he does. This is why I think you need more than a hand shake to protect yourself. You could write in a contract what a land owner can and cannot do or how something is to be done and then it doesn't matter what,s on a label or what the government says about liability.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Acebird said:


> You could write in a contract what a land owner can and cannot do or how something is to be done and then it doesn't matter what,s on a label or what the government says about liability.


I don't know how it works in NY but here most beekeepers pay a pittance in honey for land use. Anything as formal as you suggest would nix any chance of having outyards. Here we have to depend on a handshake and trust. It doesn't always work out...but for the most part does.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> The fear, as I understand it, is that a landowner can use a pesticide contrary to the directions on the label if they tell a beekeeper to move their hives. And if the beekeeper doesn't or can't then the person doing the spraying won't be held libel for damages.
> 
> Who can do that? Move hives with a honey crop on? And where to?


if your bees are on the landowner land that would be partially true, they can make you move your hives, but they can not legally spray contrary to the label. but from what I have been told, the govt. organizations, especially in NY, no longer do due diligence in investigating nor reporting the violations. now if your bees are on the neighbors land, currently you would not be required to move them, and if the spray was illegal, you might have a recourse.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

beemandan said:


> I don't know how it works in NY but here most beekeepers pay a pittance in honey for land use. Anything as formal as you suggest would nix any chance of having outyards. Here we have to depend on a handshake and trust. It doesn't always work out...but for the most part does.


same here.
furthermore, on the certified organic farms where my bees are located THEY are concerned with what I use as treatments in MY hives.
the landowners are the captains of the ships.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If it works out then what do you care about what's on a label or what the government says. A writen contract is an agreement. It doesn't need to be signed. It can be just a handshake if you trust the person but it lays out what each party is expecting from each other. If you try to do it verbally things will get forgotten. Most likely unintentional.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

wildbranch2007 said:


> if your bees are on the landowner land that would be partially true, they can make you move your hives, but they can not legally spray contrary to the label. but from what I have been told, the govt. organizations, especially in NY, no longer do due diligence in investigating nor reporting the violations. now if your bees are on the neighbors land, currently you would not be required to move them, and if the spray was illegal, you might have a recourse.


1. You are correct..the fed plan comes into play only if the pesticide is being applied to the land the beekeeper is contracted to pollinate.

2. I don't believe you are correct. The fed plan (already published) allows for spraying contrary to label in an emergency (I assume as declared by any govt employee) with 24 or 48 hours notice to beekeeprs.

.....note that the need to move honeybees shows that there is very little protection offered by this plan for any other pollinators...they can't be moved.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

deknow said:


> 2. I don't believe you are correct. The fed plan (already published) allows for spraying contrary to label in an emergency (I assume as declared by any govt employee) with 24 or 48 hours notice to beekeeprs.
> 
> .....note that the need to move honeybees shows that there is very little protection offered by this plan for any other pollinators...they can't be moved.


true but we were talking landowner, one of the counties I have bees in just declared an eee emergency, and spraying starts tonight.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Eee is one thing, I'm more concerned about the emergency that someone might have some pest damage. There is nothing in the language that describes what an emergency is.....I picture someone from the state pesticide dept determining that there will be economic loss if spraying contrary to the label isn't done.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

It's important to understand the national plan in order to give context to the proposed state plans.

If the farm you have bees on contract with wants to spray, the national plan is in place. If the farm next door wants to spray, the state plan is in place.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

deknow said:


> If the farm you have bees on contract with wants to spray, the national plan is in place. If the farm next door wants to spray, the state plan is in place.


ok Mark, you getting this all down for when you speak next?:scratch:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> if your bees are on the landowner land that would be partially true, they can make you move your hives, but they can not legally spray contrary to the label. but from what I have been told, the govt. organizations, especially in NY, no longer do due diligence in investigating nor reporting the violations. now if your bees are on the neighbors land, currently you would not be required to move them, and if the spray was illegal, you might have a recourse.


A DEC Chief, Compliance and Lab Services Section, Division of Materials Management gave me his card after the Task Force meeting and said that if anyone ever has a bee kill they suspect is from some pesticide misuse that they should call his office immediately so they have a chance to investigate. Time is of the essence with these cases. Samples of bees have to be as fresh as possible to determine by lab confirmation what the causative agent was.

We will be Posting this information on our website and in our newsletter. The number to call is 518-402-8788. Tell the person who answers you want to report a Bee Kill, if you have a bee kill to report.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> true but we were talking landowner, one of the counties I have bees in just declared an eee emergency, and spraying starts tonight.


What County is that? What's an eee emergency? Is that a "Triple E" Emergency? Or is that an eee-mergency? What are they spraying for? I'm assuming you are being serious. I hope that isn't my mistake.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> ok Mark, you getting this all down for when you speak next?:scratch:


Guess I have some reading to do. I think the Federal Plan is 65 pages long.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

http://cnycentral.com/news/local/ma...resence-of-eee-and-west-nile-virus?id=1241853

Eastern Equine Encephalitis And West Nile Virus.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> http://cnycentral.com/news/local/ma...resence-of-eee-and-west-nile-virus?id=1241853
> 
> Eastern Equine Encephalitis And West Nile Virus.


:thumbsup: my bees are outside the boundary, they are spraying a fast acting pyrethrum starting at 6:30pm on 8/13/15, aerial spraying. a friend is looking for enough burlap to cover 50 hives.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Once the spray is dispersed doesn't it cover everything? So how long after the spraying is the chemical going to make the bees sick assuming it doesn't rain?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

The material to be used will be Kontrol 30-30, manufactured by Univar.

from the label


> This pesticide is highly toxic to bees exposed to direct treatment on blooming crops or weeds. Do not apply this product or allow it to drift on blooming crops or weeds while bees are actively visiting the treatment areas, except when applications are made to prevent or control a threat to public and/or animal health determined by a state, tribal or local health or vector control agency on the basis of documented evidence of disease causing agents in vector mosquitoes or the occurrence of mosquito-borne disease in animal or human populations, or if specifically approved by the state or tribe during a natural disaster recovery effort. PHYSICAL
> ANIMALSCAUTION. Harmful if swallowed. Harmful if absorbed through skin


 nothing on how long it's toxic, but if I remember correctly pyrethrum does not stay toxic for very long when the sun is shining.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

So basically it kills everything including humans. Great solution...


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

I think there is a lot of information on what's causing the decline in pollinators, both native and domestic. I will be interested to see if this actually results in an action plan, because there are a lot of vested interests here, many of them at cross purposes.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

sqkcrk said:


> The fear, as I understand it, is that a landowner can use a pesticide contrary to the directions on the label if they tell a beekeeper to move their hives. And if the beekeeper doesn't or can't then the person doing the spraying won't be held libel for damages.
> 
> Who can do that? Move hives with a honey crop on? And where to?


I believe that it is a federal law that the application instructions on the label must be obeyed. In other words, landowners would be breaking the law if they didn't follow the instructions.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Acebird said:


> So basically it kills everything including humans. Great solution...


better than what they sprayed years ago, one would think since they go through this every year that may be using bt tablets in the spring would have been thought off, and just think of all the dec people out their spreading them, OT galor.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Pesticide issue raised at NYS bee health task force*
Panel on protecting pollinators urged to have state block use of controversial neonicotinoids
By Brian Nearing
· 
_Albany_
A national and international debate over a controversial pesticide, linked to the mysterious bee malady Colony Collapse Disorder, may play out on a state task force created by Gov. *Andrew Cuomo* to find ways to protect honeybees and other pollinators critical for agriculture.

During the group's inaugural meeting this month, a key adviser on bee health to the state Department of Agriculture called for New York to withdraw approval for a class of pesticides called neonicotinoids, which have been restricted in Europe since 2013 over concerns about honeybee die-offs.
"The state should cancel registration of all systemic, persistent insect neurotoxic pesticides, such as neonicotinoids, until there is clear, replicable scientific evidence of no near- or long-term effects on honeybees and other wild pollinators," said *Stephen Wilson*, a longtime Altamont beekeeper who also is chairman of the state *Apiary Industry Advisory Council*, which reports to Agriculture and Markets.

Wilson belongs to a task force created by Cuomo on Earth Day in April to study health threats to honeybees and other pollinating insects that are critical to important state crops like apples, grapes and strawberries. The crops contribute about $500 million a year to the economy.

Nationwide, honeybees have been dying in disturbing numbers from a phenomenon called Colony Collapse Disorder. Bees leave hives never to return, and the queen and remaining young eventually die of starvation and neglect. Annual hive losses have been running at 30 percent or more, which is about double historical rates.

Cuomo's task force, headed by officials from Agriculture and Markets and the *Department of Environmental Conservation*, held its first meeting Aug. 6.

Also on the task force are two Washington, D.C.-based pesticide industry groups — CropLife America and Responsible Industry for a Sound Environment — whose members, companies like Monsanto, Bayer and DuPont, produce neonicotinoids and other pesticides.

Neonicotinoids can be either sprayed on crops or applied to seeds for corn, cotton, wheat, soybeans and sorghum, making the chemical pervasive in plants, including in the pollen, which is harvested by bees as their food. Neonicotinoids attack the insect central nervous system, and there is some evidence that the chemical damages a honeybee's ability to navigate and find its way back to the hive.

CCD has claimed tens of millions of bees nationally since surfacing in commercial beehives in 2007. Last summer, the loss rate for the first time topped 40 percent, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Annual hive losses above 18 percent are "economically unacceptable" for beekeepers, according to *USDA*.

The *U.S. Environmental Protection Agency*, which first approved neonicotinoids in the late 1980s, is now re-examining the chemicals' potential impact on honeybees, and is also looking at other potential causes, including parasites, diseases, habitat loss and poor diet.
Concerns that pesticides may be driving CCD have prompted major retailers like *Home Depot* and Lowes to either stop selling such neonicotinoid-treated plants or require explicit labels so consumers who choose so can avoid buying those plants.

In 2013, Responsible Industry for a Sound Environment unsuccessfully opposed a vote by Seattle city lawmakers to ban neonicotinoid use on city property. The industry insists the chemical is safe when used according to directions and argue that clearer federal labeling standards would be sufficient to protect bees and other pollinators. "Farmers need pest control products and some products may present risks to individual pollinator insects if used improperly. But we know that crop production and pollinator health are compatible," said *Rebeckah Adcock*, senior director of government affairs for CropLife America, during the state task force meeting.

That group's president, *Jay Vroom*, has blamed scrutiny on neonicotinoids on "activist campaigns in the U.S. courts, federal agencies, and the media," in a November 2014 statement on the CropLife website. Efforts to restrict the pesticides "do little to advance solutions for improving pollinator health and threaten to reduce agricultural production."

CropLife was also a member of the *American Legislative Exchange Council*, an industry group that works closely with pro-industry federal lawmakers to eliminate regulations, and has been linked financially to the Kansas petrochemical billionaires David and *Charles Koch*.

Another state task force member, *Margaret Brown*, a staff attorney with the *Natural Resources Defense Council*, said there is "a strong scientific connection" between neonicotinoids and declining honeybee populations. "We should reduce the use to only what is absolutely necessary. Maybe we don't need to use neonicotinoid-treated seeds," she said.

State Agriculture Commissioner *Richard Ball*, who headed the task force meeting, said the group will take a "comprehensive look at the issue ... this is just not one thing, not just a pesticide exposure issue, not just a lack of bee forage issue, not just a disease issue, and not just a parasite issue."

He said the state needs a plan to protect honeybees and other pollinators because those insects are responsible for about 70 percent of the state's agricultural crops. DEC can ban a pesticide over safety concerns, even if it has been approved by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, added Ball.

Ball said he was hopeful that the task force will be able to reach a consensus, and issue a draft plan for public review sometime this fall. "I was bit anxious going into this meeting," he said. "But now I feel quite heartened. I think we will be able to move forward a bit faster than I first thought."

Ball is a produce farmer, and since 1993 has owned Schoharie Valley Farm, where he also keeps commercial beehives on the farm for pollination. While he does not apply neonicotinoids to his crops, Ball said, "I don't want to imply that is the only answer. ... I am not prepared to say whether they are good or bad."

DEC Deputy Commissioner *Eugene Leff* said the state wants an "effective and balanced plan," adding that bees are under stress from other factors like climate change and habitat loss as well as from pesticides.
"Certainly, pesticides will be part of the issue ... and part of any protection plan," said another task force member, Jennifer Grant, director of the state Integrated Pest Management program at Cornell University. "Some things are known, some things are not known. We should implement what we already know."
*[email protected]*_ • 518-454-5094_


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wildbranch2007 said:


> better than what they sprayed years ago,


It may be better but not good enough.  The right solution will not come from groups that are driven by money.
My wife claims that "they" are looking into a way of eradicating the mosquito species because there is no impact on environment. I find that hard to believe and I don't believe the human race is capable of eradicating any insect on purpose, not even the honeybee. What baffles me is why isn't the medical community finding a solution to vaccinate against the diseases that the mosquito carries? It would seem to me to be a far more effective approach.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

http://www.agriculture.ny.gov/webcasting.html. The audio recording of the Task Force Meeting, as promised by the Commissioners.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Beekeepers, environmentalists question EPA’s commitment to saving bees

https://shar.es/1vrTQX

FOIA request probes pesticide industry influenceWASHINGTON, D.C. — Friends of the Earth submitted a Freedom of Information Act to the Environmental Protection Agency today requesting meeting minutes and communications between the EPA Office of the Administrator, the Office of Pesticide Programs and representatives of the pesticide industry. Friends of the Earth submitted this FOIA due to concerns raised by beekeepers around undue pesticide industry influence on the development of the ...


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

> Administrator states a ‘function of where the bees are,’ then the proposed new rule must protect bees wherever they are located. Beekeepers should not suffer the loss of their livestock simply because they are not under a crop pollination contract,” said Michele Colopy, program director of the Pollinator Stewardship Council.


sounds reasonable to me, a shame that's not will be legislated


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## blue (Apr 21, 2011)

> “The EPA should be aware that the agri-chemical industry is attempting to hijack the entire pollinator program in order to protect neonics. In MA the state Farm Bureau, in concert with their national organization, secretly organized a consortia of farmers, landscapers, pest control operators and selected commercial beekeepers to propose state legislation concerning this program. The 7 county beekeeping organizations, comprising over 80% of state beekeepers, were never informed this consortia existed and when discovered were initially banned from their meetings. This is a cynical enterprise,” stated Massachusetts beekeeper, Richard Callahan, PhD.
> 
> "Massachusetts Farm Bureau wrote the plan without the input of county beekeepers and has not addressed any of the issues to protect pollinators," said Lucy Tabit, Massachusetts beekeeper. "They put my name on it, without my knowledge or permission. We still don’t know who’s running this initiative – what we do know is that it’s NOT us beekeepers. If my beehives are being killed by agricultural or residential chemical spray, so are the countless other native pollinators and the other wildlife that eat them. Who is accountable?"https://shar.es/1vrTQX


So much for a good plan in MA.


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## Radford (Jul 13, 2010)

Do you remember these words ? "I'm from the goverment and I'm here to help". Short notice on meeting? Just my two cents.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I second meeting of the Task Force will happen tomorrow at 9:00 AM. I'll let you know how it went.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

thank you Mark.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Don't thank me yet. We may need protection from the Protection Plan.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Yeah I thought of that too!
My hope is that Mr. Ball will advocate for a balanced approach being a farmer and beekeeper.
I came away from my little chat with him thinking this may be the direction he'll pursue.
I already know you value a balanced approach as well.
I'm hopeful something useful will come of this. Call me crazy.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)




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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


>


Mark, I hate to be the spelling police...but I think it is correctly spelled:


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I hope you guys keep your plan in your state, my bees don't contribute anything to the pollination of the food I eat and besides my losses over the past 5 years has been below 10%. Eureka it must be that I have bred neonic resistant bees? LOL
Johno


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Every state has is developing their own plan....many under the "guidance" of pesticide apllicators.

The national plan (which has jurustiction in all states under some circumstances ) requires that bees be moved so pesticides can be applied.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

deknow said:


> many under the "guidance" of pesticide apllicators.


And the pones just follow along.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> Yeah I thought of that too!
> My hope is that Mr. Ball will advocate for a balanced approach being a farmer and beekeeper.
> I came away from my little chat with him thinking this may be the direction he'll pursue.
> I already know you value a balanced approach as well.
> I'm hopeful something useful will come of this. Call me crazy.


I felt today that the way Commissioner Ball and Deputy DEC Commissioner Eugene Leff handled things was in hopes of steering the conversation towards greater understanding amongst the participants w/out demonizing anyone, though the anti-neonic talk was quite abundant.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> Mark, I hate to be the spelling police...but I think it is correctly spelled:


I'm sure you are right. But, to what are you referring?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

johno said:


> I hope you guys keep your plan in your state, my bees don't contribute anything to the pollination of the food I eat and besides my losses over the past 5 years has been below 10%. Eureka it must be that I have bred neonic resistant bees? LOL
> Johno


I don't think there is any need to fear. Each State is supposed to develop their own. The only way the NY Plan would effect VA is if VA adopted it. And that wouldn't be NY's doing, but VA's.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> (which has jurustiction in all states under some circumstances )


Such as? Doesn't the Federal Plan only pertain to what happens on Federal Property, such as Parks and Military Bases?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Mark, I don't mean to be critical, but by this point on the process, you should know this by now.

The fed plan comes into play when pesticides are being applied to the same property where contract pollination is underway.

If the farmer next door to the pollination contract applies pesticides, the state MP3 plan comes into play. I don't know what happens if the properties are in neighboring states.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> Mark, I don't mean to be critical, but by this point on the process, you should know this by now.
> 
> The fed plan comes into play when pesticides are being applied to the same property where contract pollination is underway.
> 
> If the farmer next door to the pollination contract applies pesticides, the state MP3 plan comes into play. I don't know what happens if the properties are in neighboring states.


Yes, I know. We can kid each other, can't we? Hope so. 

I see. I think. There is a lot I don't know about.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Here is what I wrote to the Board of Directors of the Empire State Honey Producers Association, Inc, concerning the latest meeting of the NYS Pollinator Protection Task Force Meeting.

Dear All,

I attended the most recent meeting of the NYS Pollinator Protection Task Force just this last Friday. It was a round table discussion format meeting focusing primarily on Honeybees and Beekeeping, hosted by the Commissioners of the DEC and Ag&Mkts, to "address specific NY Conditions so as to support agriculture, industry, and government best management practices moving forward."


Beekeepers present included Karen Kutik, Roberta Glatz, Aaron Morris, Dan Winter, and Steve (?) from Cato, NY. Steven O. Wilson represented the Apiary Industry Advisory Committee and I the Empire State Honey Producers Association. Scott McCart, Emma Mullen, and Jennifer Grant from Cornell were there also, along with many other persons too numerous for me to recall by name or affiliation.


The meeting started off with a presentation by Emma Mullen of Cornell University. Emma works under Scott McCart and her job is Extension, whereas Scott's is Research. Emma is from Ontario, Canada, where she was quite heavily involved in the creation of Ontario's Pollinator Protection Plan. That is what her presentation was about, mostly. Their plan and how they have gone about restricting the use of neonicotinoid pesticides. 


Ms Mullen also gave an overview of 8 research programs being done by Cornell University directly related to honeybees and other pollinating insects.


Department of Plant Industry Director Chris Logue presented a series of slides illustrating the data that the State Apiculturalist, Paul Cappy collects through the work his 3 Apiary Inspectors do.


It would be nice if those presentations were available for more people to see. During the presentations and afterwards there were a number of questions which clarified thoughts and answered concerns.


The meeting lasted from 9:00 AM until Noon and many questions and answers were exchanged by those there, from Research to Pesticide Reps, from the Commissioners and lower level State Employees responsible for the implementation of policy. I believe some greater understanding of each other and what is and what is possible was gained. Whether we met the goal of the meeting will be seen by what comes in the future with the development of the written plan.


Respectfully submitted,
Mark Berninghausen


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Probably good you took out the part about the awards... corporate america and their awards. Oy vey.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Comments can still be sent to the NY State Pollinator Protection Task Force at this e-mail address: [email protected]


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Best recommendation I can think of is to introduce a reward for setting aside land for making small, permanent meadows with vernal ponds every few miles. The native pollinators need these areas with native, local plant life, water, and on land with good soil.

Other efforts can be making wood blocks with 5/16" diameter holes drilled 4" deep for such solitary bees as osmia, the metallic green mason bees. 1 block, 8" x 8" x 8" drilled with 49 holes to a side spaced 1 inch apart (stagger so the holes don't meet) placed in every other back yard could really get the population to come up.

Some of the bombus group (bumble bees) benefit from small wooden boxes with a single entry hole, and loosely filled about 1/3 to 1/2 with dry straw or grass chopped into 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 inch lengths.

Many other successful housing designs can be posted, if anyone has them and a digital camera.

Monarch butterflies benefit from certain species of milkweed. Start growing these!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The third and final meeting of the Pollinator Protection Task Force takes place tomorrow, but if you are a NY State beekeeper you can still submit comments to [email protected]. Please do, if you have something to add to the conversation.

It has been my honor and pleasure to serve the beekeepers of NY as best I can.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

What is the point of view of the Board of Directors of ESHPA that you will put forth tomorrow?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Beekeepers should keep bees as healthy and free of pests as they possibly can.

State Office Buildings should feature wildflower gardens and butterfly sanctuaries as examples of what homeowners themselves can do to provide habitat for beneficial insects.

That DOT should mow, when possible and where practical, one mower width only to allow nectar and pollen producing plants to grow.

That users of pesticides of all sorts, in all sorts of situations, follow the Legal Label Laws and that NYS DEC enforce those Laws.

ESHPA recommends that when agricultural concerns use pesticides, including fungicides, that they should do so when honeybees and Native Pollinators aren't flying, at night, at break of day, or at dusk.

Users of chemical sprays and the DEC should be aware that beekeepers are concerned about what materials are in "tank mixes".

ESHPA requests help from the Dept. of Ag&Mkts when it comes to beekeepers who wish to acquire and use antibiotics, now that the availability of antibiotics has become restricted. The concern is that colonies of bees will go untreated and the cases of AFB will rise in number.

Should the lack of the ability to acquire antibiotics result in the rise of cases of AFB, then ESHPA would like to see a robust Apiary Inspection Force. Not like the Inspection we had before, but a combination of Extension and Regulation so Inspectors can not only identify AFB and supervise the burning of diseased bees and equipment, but also advise and teach beekeepers on different aspects of management and control of pests and diseases.

That is basically what I will be putting forth today, orally and in written form.

ESHPA's voice is not the only one. It would be nice if local bee clubs, and individual beekeepers, would send in their own comments and wish list to [email protected].


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Should the lack of the ability to acquire antibiotics result in the rise of cases of AFB, then ESHPA would like to see a robust Apiary Inspection Force. Not like the Inspection we had before, but a combination of Extension and Regulation so Inspectors can not only identify AFB and supervise the burning of diseased bees and equipment, but also advise and teach beekeepers on different aspects of management and control of pests and diseases.


I don't like your choice of the word "Force". It should be a "service" and it should be made up of trained technicians who are not beekeepers themselves.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Acebird said:


> I don't like your choice of the word "Force". It should be a "service" and it should be made up of trained technicians who are not beekeepers themselves.


As always, chock full of good ideas Ace.
A trained bee technician! Brilliant!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I don't like your choice of the word "Force". It should be a "service" and it should be made up of trained technicians who are not beekeepers themselves.


How about a crew of well trained, knowledgeable, and amiable Apiary Inspectors? Better?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> How about a crew of well trained, knowledgeable, and amiable Apiary Inspectors? Better?


Way better ... Still don't like the idea of inspectors owning a bee business. If they have their own bee hives in their back yard fine, but not a business or tied to another business either through employment or investment.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Where is that coming from?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Way better ... Still don't like the idea of inspectors owning a bee business. If they have their own bee hives in their back yard fine, but not a business or tied to another business either through employment or investment.


Why Ace? Who else are you going to find to staff a NYS inspection program? College kids on summer break? They aren't available for enough time. Retired folks that haven't got the strength anymore to do the job? Younger folks that haven't got the experience to do a proper job? 

The program used to work well with seasoned commercials doing the field work. I think NYS made a big mistake by listening to the paranoid sideliners who demanded the changes to the program. Well, they won. Now what have we got Ace? Nada! Dumb.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Why Mike? Because it is a conflict of interest.
If a State is going to have a serious inspection program then they need to set qualifications and hire individuals that are trained or train them to what they need to do. Why do you think the inspector needs to be a beekeeper or even a commercial beekeeper?

The reason for "Nada" is because the risk to the general public doesn't warrant the cost of the program. Why should the tax payers of NY or any state pay for the protection of a hand full of commercial operators from themselves. They could fund their own inspection organization to keep control if they think the risks warrant it. Police themselves.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

as usual ace has no clue. commercials have enough experience to control afb themselves. afb from hobby beekeepers such as ace is the problem. other than getting a permit commercials have no need for inspectors. the inspection program has no care for any beekeepers. they just want to control the spread of afb for the pollination value. my thoughts are get rid of the inspection division and put the money into the extension service and help new beekeepers get trained.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> The reason for "Nada" is because the risk to the general public doesn't warrant the cost of the program. Why should the tax payers of NY or any state pay for the protection of a hand full of commercial operators from themselves. They could fund their own inspection organization to keep control if they think the risks warrant it. Police themselves.


The inspection program is protecting everyone from you Ace, and beekeepers who haven't got a clue. As a commercial beekeeper who hasn't used antibiotics in decades, I fear contracting AFB from beekeepers buying used equipment and nucs infected with the disease. Most of the new beekeepers don't know what AFB looks like and by the time they figure out their bees are in trouble, the colony has been robbed out the there goes the neighborhood. 

Sorry to be so blunt, Ace, but every case of AFB I've had to burn over the years has come to my apiary exactly in this way.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> I fear contracting AFB from beekeepers buying used equipment and nucs infected with the disease.


Because I purchased 2 nucs from a commercial beekeeper there was a risk that the 10 frames were tainted with AFB. All of my other equipment is new. Not having an outbreak in four years it is unlikely that they were tainted. So if I get AFB it has to come from some other beekeeper. Now that Loews has wiped out 3/4 of the local apple orchard it is unlikely that a commercial operator can get close enough to me to be a threat. That puts my mind at ease.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Acebird said:


> Now that Loews has wiped out 3/4 of the local apple orchard .


Did Lowes expropriate the land/orchard or did the landowner sell it to them of his own free will?

This is just another example of your warped views.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The land owner laughed all the way to the bank.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Still don't like the idea of inspectors owning a bee business.


That situation is not a problem, Brian. Apiary Inspectors can own up to 50 hives, can't sell any hive products, and cannot work for a beekeeper during the off season Why anyone would own 50 hives and not sell honey or nucs is beyond me. But, unless I misheard the State Apiculturalist, them's the rules. So don't like it as much as you like. It isn't a problem.

So I don't know why you brought it up, especially with the word "Still ...", as if Apiary Inspectors owning a bee business was still a thing in NY.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> So I don't know why you brought it up, especially with the word "Still ...", as if Apiary Inspectors owning a bee business was still a thing in NY.


Mark I meant "I" still don't like ... I have no idea what the rules were before they had inspectors. You said "off season" so does that mean they can work for a beekeeper during the season? Wouldn't that be pointless?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"so does that mean they can work for a beekeeper during the season?" Seriously? Now I think you are just goading me.

I cannot possibly think of all of the different ways you will think and answer your questions in advance. No one can.

Inspectors can't work for beekeepers while employed by the State, that's a conflict of interest. Something I would have thought you would have clearly seen on your own.

You writing "Still don't like it." implies you think it still happens. It doesn't. So it just must be the idea, I guess.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Here is a link to a recent article about the NYS PPTF.

http://www.independentsciencenews.o...llinator-task-force-wont-save-new-yorks-bees/.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Why Mike? Because it is a conflict of interest.
> If a State is going to have a serious inspection program then they need to set qualifications and hire individuals that are trained or train them to what they need to do. Why do you think the inspector needs to be a beekeeper or even a commercial beekeeper?
> 
> The reason for "Nada" is because the risk to the general public doesn't warrant the cost of the program. Why should the tax payers of NY or any state pay for the protection of a hand full of commercial operators from themselves. They could fund their own inspection organization to keep control if they think the risks warrant it. Police themselves.


You are absolutely right Brian and rest assured the NYS state ethics committee has said the same thing. I and others in NYS fought that battle once and would do it again in a minute. Anyone who can't understand the conflict of interest of being inspected by people you have to compete with must not own a business of their own. The people who are wasting theirs and the taxpayers money on this kind of wishy washy non binding, no postivie impact plan, must not realize the credibility they are losing among their peers, I hear it everywhere I go. I fully support inspections, the problem is the only inspections are commercial. These make someone feel important meetings is all about wasting yet more of my tax dollars. Do we really think mowing 1/2 the distance along roadsides and a strong inspection FORCE are what we need. Maybe a well funded and well trained inspection team would be much better. Is this the best that we have to offer Mark? Really? By the way, Kris, my state inspector, just finished my state inspections last week...not commercial...very competent....trust him in my hives at his leave with or without me-drives 3 hours to get me inspected so I can go south, that's what we need and well, that's what we have it,just need more of it. This is how NYS looks like they address an issue they won't spend any real money on.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

the guy that screwed up the whole program was cappy having 700 hives and also in temporary charge of the program. they made the new rule then put him in as full time head inspector. go figure. most commercial older guys used to inspect as myself. there were always cornel students working as a summer job. I have inspected with david dejong and gene robinson. now the program is just a joke.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Seems to me that some people want Apiary Inspection. People who got into beekeeping since Apiary Inspection stopped being for everyone. Why? What do they expect to happen? That the State will keep their bees healthy and safe? People who call for Apiary Inspection don't know what they are asking for and don't realize that they wouldn't get what they think they want anyway.

Joel, both Bob Duncan and Kris Stevens came from commercial beekeeping experience. In case you were not aware.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

my thoughts are it could be better applied thru an extension program working with local clubs. I know both bob and kris but to inspect 10% of the hives does not mean much.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

That's all we were told to look at no matter the apiary size. Unless AFB was found.

The thing about Apiary Inspection is that under Ag&Mkts inspection is regulation, not extension. So if there was to be Apiary Inspection across the spectrum changes would have to be made. A new program would have to be developed.

But until the need becomes well established and apparent and funding can be found, I don't see anything happening to change, especially expand, what we have now. It would probably take something like what brought Apiary Inspection into existence the first time. But without an improved economy I don't see it.

How much would any of the NY State Beekeepers in this Thread would pay to have their hive(s) inspected? And how much would you pay per hour, including mileage?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

the ny wellness program has done more for new beekeepers than the state has ever done. the only thing I need from the state is the permit to go south. yes I realize it would require a new program. with all the awareness now about bees if we cant get funding now we never will. times like this is when roger morse is missed the most. he knew the politics of gov.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I agree with you about the NY Bee Wellness Program. You didn't think the Master Beekeeper Program at Cornell did any good?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

never got involved with the master program. hands on programs such as those have a much better return on money spent vs the state. to be a leader the state should have created the wellness program. there is no energy at the top as far as the inspection program. getting local clubs to work closer with eshpa would also be good. a lot of clubs consider eshpa to be the enemy. I was surprised at some comments from clubs. well that's another story.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Any apiary program needs to start at the beginning, which is a clear knowledge of how many beehives there
are in NYS and how many apiaries. Everything I read is a loose estimate with the commercial numbers 
being better known than the hobby numbers it seems.
The last 10 years has seen exponential growth in hobby beekeeping and the State has no reasonable estimate of how many there are. Not a glue how many is a better way to say it.
Surrounding each of my yards are back yarders that have little 
experience or training with bees and 1 in 10 hasn't even heard of the bee club. The guru instructors that
have popped up over this time period have a couple of years experience with bees and their beginners classes cover
equipment purchase/setup, yearly bee cycles, mutual back rubbing and little more. 
These issues, lack of colony/apiary numbers and lack of beekeeper training, are ticking bombs for all NYS beekeepers.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Acebird said:


> If a State is going to have a serious inspection program then they need to set qualifications and hire individuals that are trained or train them to what they need to do.


No reqiurement to be a beekeeper here.

Seems like sparks are flying in this thread.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> You didn't think the Master Beekeeper Program at Cornell did any good?


I am sure Cornell enjoyed the revenue.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

when I inspected we had about 24 inspectors. now with 2 or 3 they don't want to know the new ones. that's why I feel club programs could be so important. things change in time but I have been to the combo nc/sc meeting they have every other year. really puts ny to shame. I see the eshpa meeting has been better advertised so maybe this yr turnout will improve.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Inspectors & apiary registration should be seriously considered in the event an emergency program needs to be established and implemented quickly. Training/education offered by Ag extension & expansion and support of the Bee Wellness program for voluntary beekeeper education should be seriously considered for preventative purposes.
And maybe an appeal to the states' beekeepers emphasizing the importance of maintaining healthy colonies and the effect diseased colonies have on other colonies and feral bees by transmitting pathogens. 
The 'get them and then forget them' mentality is all to common. 
I talk regularly with those who have had bees for a few years, buying more nearly every year when they died off, and finally giving up. They are convinced the environment is to blame and refuse to believe that keeping bees healthy and alive requires a little more than making a couple of purchases on the computer.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

An emergency program? What might that be?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> An emergency program? What might that be?


disease outbreak, unexpected massive bee die off, quarantine purposes...???

For example AFB
has the potential to become epidemic here as the overwhelming number of hives are
non commercial and the disease would probably not be detected in a timely manner.
There are no inspectors or firm idea of where apiaries are located or 
by whom for any meaningful control/containment efforts.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't think we live in the same world we lived in which brought apiary inspection into existence.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> I don't think we live in the same world we lived in which brought apiary inspection into existence.


The more things seem to change the more they stay the same.
The same issues exist in addition to some new ones. Couple this with a beekeeping population the size of which
the officials are ignorant of and therefore unable to formulate any meaningful NYS apiary policy.

I do still see enormous value in some form of inspection system, a registration system and a fully supported beekeeper education program.
Certainly the present system is dysfunctional.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

kilocharlie said:


> Best recommendation I can think of is to introduce a reward for setting aside land for making small, permanent meadows with vernal ponds every few miles. The native pollinators need these areas with native, local plant life, water, and on land with good soil.
> 
> Other efforts can be making wood blocks with 5/16" diameter holes drilled 4" deep for such solitary bees as osmia, the metallic green mason bees. 1 block, 8" x 8" x 8" drilled with 49 holes to a side spaced 1 inch apart (stagger so the holes don't meet) placed in every other back yard could really get the population to come up.
> 
> ...


Finally, a sensible suggestion. Small wild places in every nook and cranny would be very helpful.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

No mention of restricting movement of commercial bees. Restricting movement of biological material is the first step in creating stable environments. All the issues in my yard stem from regulatory agencies ignoring this principle until the horse has left the barn. When an invasive/new disease/or a new variant of a old disease becomes a problem, it is too late.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cr, my concern is that people don't know what they are asking for when they say they want apiary inspection. And whatever they want they don't understand that they won't get it, most of the time. 

And also there is the consequences of unintended circumstances. In order to get one thing you will have to take something else. In order to get a beekeeper education program you are going to have to pay for it. And there aren't that many beekeepers or potential beekeepers who are willing to pay for it. Despite anecdotal evidence. Just look at how many people didn't take the Master Beekeeper Course at Cornell when Nic Calderone was running it. Or how many didn't take the Bee Wellness Workshops. A number have, but the number that didn't far out weighs the number that did.

I disagree with you that the same issues exist. At one time beekeeping and honey production was a much larger part of NYS agriculture. Far more than today. Even in my life time in NY beekeeping was much more than it is today. Just in St. Lawrence County there were more beekeepers and more commercial beekeepers 20 years ago than there are now. So times do change. Agriculture changes too. Gone are the fields of clover. 

I don't see the strong argument, need, or support for the idea of an Apiary Inspection Service necessary to inspect enough hives to make a difference to beekeepers in NY. I would venture to guess that we would need 20 or more Inspectors strategically placed throughout the State. Currently we have two who live in the same town. Go figure. And I would want to see them well trained in all aspects of diseases and pests and treatments and management techniques, as well as interpersonal relations with the public. Unique, well paid, people. That is a hurdle right there.

Not saying it can't be done. But where is the will and the know how?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

all good points sqkck.
I will have to consider them further.

As a starting point the current inspection system involves the inspector doing what exactly?
what is the "job description"?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't know if there is a job description. Seems like there would have to be. But I don't know. I don't recall that there was one when I went to work in 1986 and never thought to ask since I simply was rehired each year.

Doing what exactly? Checking 10% of all migratory beehives known about for AFB and Varroa, primarily. Such data is used to support a Health Certificate for Interstate Transport. There are other things that Apiary Inspectors do, such as USDA Surveys, but mostly it is to facilitate the interstate movement of beehives under Permit.

I'm sure someone like Paul Cappy, NYS Apiculturalist, or his boss, Chris Logue, could tell you more of what they do.

The job was, as I understood it, to visually check beehives for diseases and pests of honeybees. When AFB was found, to issue Quarantine Notices which restricted the movement of infected hives. To take samples of diseased comb for Lab Confirmation of Field Diagnosis, and submit them to the Beltsville Bee Lab, Beltsville, MD. To sample a few hives in each yard for Varroa mites and to note the findings on the Inspection Report, which a copy was mailed or handed to the beekeeper. To maintain accurate apiary and beekeeper information so the apiary location could be found year to year no matter the Inspector. To delete from the records any apiaries known and verified to be vacant and also any beekeeper information if no longer a beekeeper by choice or death.

A lot of record keeping to show what work was done. How much time was spent at each task. A daily log of travel distance and time, especially necessary for reimbursement for use of one's personal vehicle for State purposes. Having a vehicle is a job requirement. Motorcycles don't count.  

Those are the things I can think of at this time.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> I'm sure someone like Paul Cappy, NYS Apiculturalist, or his boss, Chris Logue, could tell you more of what they do.
> 
> The job was, as I understood it, to visually check beehives for diseases and pests of honeybees. When AFB was found, to issue Quarantine Notices which restricted the movement of infected hives. To take samples of diseased comb for Lab Confirmation of Field Diagnosis, and submit them to the Beltsville Bee Lab, Beltsville, MD. To sample a few hives in each yard for Varroa mites and to note the findings on the Inspection Report, which a copy was mailed or handed to the beekeeper. To maintain accurate apiary and beekeeper information so the apiary location could be found year to year no matter the Inspector. To delete from the records any apiaries known and verified to be vacant and also any beekeeper information if no longer a beekeeper by choice or death.


Good grief sqkcrk, your recollection/description is exactly what is needed now!

Although I think there needs to be emphasis on non commercials as well, equal emphasis.
(lots of bees and nucs being traded under the radar these days; many only want local)
Probably play better with the taxpayers of the State.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ohio's Apiary Inspection Program is executed on a State and County level. 

There are about 6 or 8 (not sure what's happening there these days) State employed Inspectors who work full time all year round as Horticultural Inspectors who do Apiary Inspection when a commercial or sideline beekeeper needs many hives inspected, especially for interstate movement. They cover different regions of the State.

There are also County Level Inspectors who are employed seasonally, many annually, to inspect in one or some times two counties. They are employed by the County Cooperative Extension. They aren't employed to do extension work, teaching, as far as I know.

That's what I remember from when I lived and worked in OH. I don't know what qualifies one to be a County Inspector other than having your own bees and there being a vacancy. I was an Apiary Inspector one Summer in Holmes County, OH. More Amish live there than anyone else. Lots of Cheese Factories. Best Swiss Cheese I ever ate.

State Inspectors have Horticultural Degrees.

All the above is from 1984-6, so perhaps things have changed. It seemed like a decent system. Jim Thompson, who has written in Bee Culture and is a well know long standing member of the Tri-County Beekeepers Association, liked being an apiary inspector so he could know where the diseased hives were. That was before Varroa really got going.

Now, speaking of Varroa, a pest that has killed more colonies of bees than the diseases, AFB and EFB, ever have. What if Apiary Inspectors were out checking hives across the State for high Varroa levels and issuing quarantines calling for the treating of those hives, regardless of the time of the honey season or whether a beekeeper wished to remain treatment free. 

Could you imagine what an uproar both TF Beekeepers and Commercial Beekeepers would raise? If the State made someone take off all of their honey supers, treat, wait a period of time, three weeks, before being able to reinstall the supers? The loss of crop would be too much. And if the State made someone who doesn't use chemicals use them to treat colonies for Varroa? I don't think I would like to see that. 

Even though I believe that the reason we don't hear about AFB in NY is that Varroa/Virus kills colonies before AFB has a chance to get established.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Yes, The Ohio apiary program seems like one to base the NY program on if people honestly believe a functional apiary program in NY is
necessary.
As it stands now our program is in shambles and halfheartedly funded and operated. Improve it or eliminate it but enough of the treading water.

As I recall from a previous discussion here on BeeSource, the Ohio beekeepers who post here were very happy with both the quality of the work
done by the Oh Dept of Ag Apiary Division and found the program beneficial.
I wonder how the varroa situation is handled there? or in other states?

For reference: Ohio Dept of Ag Apiary http://www.agri.ohio.gov/divs/plant/apiary/apiary.aspx
Value of bees to OH Agriculture: http://www.ohiostatebeekeepers.org/...value-of-bee-pollination-to-ohio-agriculture/
State by State (compare Oh v NY) honey production, #colonies. release Mar 2015: http://www.usda.gov/nass/PUBS/TODAYRPT/hony0315.txt


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

inspectors salaries--paul c $81,429
bob d $25,565
kris s $21,029
plus benefits do we get a return on money spent? the last two draw unemployment thru the winter.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

APHIS handled it by killing every managed colony within a 5 or 10 miles radius, until the futility of doing so was recognized. But that was on the Federal Level.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beeware10 said:


> inspectors salaries--paul c $81,429
> bob d $25,565
> kris s $21,029
> plus benefits do we get a return on money spent? the last two draw unemployment thru the winter.


FOI strikes again? How did you find that out?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

there is a web site call seethroughny. anyone that is on a public payroll can be looked. lots of troopers make over 100k with over time. interesting site to say the least. teachers, highway dept,etc.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

beeware10 said:


> the last two draw unemployment thru the winter.


:no: Something isn't right there!


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

the last 2 do the field work and get paid by the hr. kinda hard to inspect bees in ny in winter. they work enough summer hrs then get laid off. not sure what's not right.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beeware10 said:


> there is a web site call seethroughny. anyone that is on a public payroll can be looked. lots of troopers make over 100k with over time. interesting site to say the least. teachers, highway dept,etc.


Even Chris Logue, Director of Plant Industry? Cappy's boss? Commissioner Richard Ball too?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> :no: Something isn't right there!


You don't mean the understood annual rehiring, do you?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

beeware10 said:


> not sure what's not right.


Besides the fact that they are supposed to be looking for work while collecting unemployment compensation? Besides that there was one Inspector who collected compensation on someone's Insurance even though that person had a job for him? Causing his premiums to go up?

Laying someone off and leading them to believe that they will be rehired, while all along they are collecting unemployment compensation. Is that kosher as far as the Dept of Labor looks at things?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

logue $78,616
ball must be in a different section


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Appointed employee?

Logue must earn less than Cappy because Cappy has been employed by the Dept 30 years.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

If I remember right cappy is the highest non appointed position. above him is strictly political.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You got to give it to him. He has been successful at staying employed.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> You don't mean the understood annual rehiring, do you?



No, what you said in Post #164


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> Post #164, exactly, Mark!


I wonder when the powers that be will finish with Sheldon Silver and move on to the small fry.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

clyderoad said:


> As it stands now our program is in shambles and halfheartedly funded and operated. Improve it or eliminate it but enough of the treading water.


no argument there. Mark has a meeting set up with some # of the head's of all the bee clubs(got a number Mark), and the ESHPA meeting is coming up on the 21st, how about setting something up and asking the members of the clubs and ESHPA what they want to do about inspections? put a poll up on beesource and ask everyone from NY to vote on it mite work. At least you would have the input of more than 3 or 4 people like you have in this thread. Might even get enough of a response to get the Govt. to make a commitment?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

clyderoad said:


> For example AFB
> has the potential to become epidemic here as the overwhelming number of hives are
> non commercial and the disease would probably not be detected in a timely manner.


can I quote you on the number of hives in NY being non commercial, the last time ESHPA was discussing eliminating the apiary registration law, the argument was that there were far more commercial hives, so the non commercial hives should not count as much in the voting, at least that's what it says in their newsletter. :scratch:


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Despite anecdotal evidence. Just look at how many people didn't take the Master Beekeeper Course at Cornell when Nic Calderone was running it. Or how many didn't take the Bee Wellness Workshops. A number have, but the number that didn't far out weighs the number that did.


The Bee Wellness program is a good idea, but not funded very well. I convinced a person to go to the last class, they had fun but were not impressed, they had microscopes, but no slides to look at. If I remember correctly they had no examples of nosema, AFB, EFB, ets. they spent most of the day opening hives and asking questions. The other deficiency is that local people get trained, but no one else knows who these people are. So if someone suspects that they have say EFB, they are no better of as they really don't have access to the trained people. Now if I was one of the trained people I'm not sure I would want every new person asking me to come look at there hives either:ws: these catch-22's will get you all the time. What I try to do is keep an eye open for new hives near mine, try and find out who owns them (sure would be easier if we still had the law where you had to post a sign with your state beekeeper # on it) , find out what they do for mites, if they don't treat, ask them to at least monitor for mite counts and give them my phone #, so if there hives start crashing, I can get a call and test or treat mine.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

for another prospective on some of the pollinator protection debate in NY, go to bee-l
http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A1=ind1511&L=bee-l

and look at the posts under
re: Neurological effects

not sure how it ended up here, but about post #3 by James Fisher it starts up. there are other discussions about neurological effects so you have to get the correct one.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> no argument there. Mark has a meeting set up with some # of the head's of all the bee clubs(got a number Mark), and the ESHPA meeting is coming up on the 21st, how about setting something up and asking the members of the clubs and ESHPA what they want to do about inspections? put a poll up on beesource and ask everyone from NY to vote on it mite work. At least you would have the input of more than 3 or 4 people like you have in this thread. Might even get enough of a response to get the Govt. to make a commitment?


No, I don't have a count. This is a first time lunch meeting to get to know each other and to see what we might have in common that we could help each other with. IMO early days to ask questions like you suggest. But we will see where the conversation goes. This is a No Agenda get together.

Putting a Poll up on beesource would get more participation from people outside of NY than it would beekeepers in NY.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> For example AFB has the potential to become epidemic here as the overwhelming number of hives are non commercial and the disease would probably not be detected in a timely manner.


Here being Long Island maybe, but not the rest of the State. More colonies in NY are in the hands of commercial beekeepers than in the hands of noncommercial beekeepers. Commercial beekeepers defined as having 300 or more colonies. Paul Cappy could put that into perspective for you, us. I'm sure I could name 10 beekeepers who would account for 30,000 colonies. There aren't 100,000 backyard beekeepers with 2 or 3 hives in NY State.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

Here in Nova Scotia, we have to register annually even if we have one hive. The registration is free, and contains a short survey, so our bee people know what's going on. There are also requirements for importing bees and equipment, as well as a short list of "reportable" diseases, like AFB. Our bee inspector also has the authority to inspect any apiary as he sees fit, and order remedial action as necessary. Our honey bee act is less than 2 pages long, but it's designed to protect us from ourselves with a minimum of inconvenience. BTW, I've never seen our inspector.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Putting a Poll up on beesource would get more participation from people outside of NY than it would beekeepers in NY.


I was thinking more along the lines of set up the poll, ask others not to participate, give the address of the poll to the clubs and people at ESHPA and see what happens.
My prediction would be, maybe 1 or two clubs would pass it along, and 95% of the people wouldn't vote.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

wildbranch2007 said:


> can I quote you on the number of hives in NY being non commercial, the last time ESHPA was discussing eliminating the apiary registration law, the argument was that there were far more commercial hives, so the non commercial hives should not count as much in the voting, at least that's what it says in their newsletter. :scratch:


I should have been more clear, "here" refers to Long Island. Likely our commercial v non commercial hive numbers are drastically different than the State as a whole.
No 1000 hive operators here, no 500 hive operators either, don't think there are any 300 hive operators.
I have NO hard and fast numbers for my comment (no one else does either though) but around each of my yards, on Eastern LI, 
there are more non commercial hives with in a 1 mile radius than I have hives in the yard. The longer I have occupied the yards the more hives I have learned about outside of the 1 mile radius. My guess 2x as many, and the ratio is higher as one moves west on LI.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

clyderoad said:


> I have NO hard and fast numbers for my comment (no one else does either though) but around each of my yards, on Eastern LI,


that really is the shame of it, all those decisions are made with no reliable information available. but I would be hard money that Mark is not correct either, significantly more than 100,000 beeks with more than 2 or three hives each. Most of the people that buy nucs and packages locally don't belong to bee clubs nor do they go online.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

And therein lies the problem. The first discussion about bees in NY should be about what we have here in NY, and what we don't have. That's the first step to take with up to date data. Register the bee yards and assign a number to all beekeepers, charge a fee to register
and get one of those Apiary Dept. IT guys to start accumulating data, then start the discussions. 
Otherwise it's a waste of time and money and will lead to policy decisions that simply don't apply to our situation. And lots of discussions where no one know's what the hell they're talking about due to sheer ignorance, us included.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

clyderoad said:


> And therein lies the problem. The first discussion about bees in NY should be about what we have here in NY, and what we don't have. That's the first step to take with up to date data. Register the bee yards and assign a number to all beekeepers, charge a fee to register
> and get one of those Apiary Dept. IT guys to start accumulating data, then start the discussions.
> Otherwise it's a waste of time and money and will lead to policy decisions that simply don't apply to our situation. And lots of discussions where no one know's what the hell they're talking about due to shere ignorance, us included.


I'll go with the registration, and when you register or get inspected you should get a large bright sticker that must go in each yard, so that others can determine that the yard is registered or inspected each year.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> I would be hard money that Mark is not correct either, significantly more than 100,000 beeks with more than 2 or three hives each.


I have heard numbers from Cappy. But I don't recall them clearly. I recall Paul mentioning those numbers in an AIAC Mtng or one of the PP Task Force Mtngs. Maybe Mike could find them in his copies of AIAC Minutes.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Joel, both Bob Duncan and Kris Stevens came from commercial beekeeping experience. In case you were not aware.


I am very aware, neither are currently running a commercial operation while inspecting me. I am sure if you retired, if Chuck retired, any of you, me, or many other could be competent inspectors. Borst always stood strong on the fact that someone commercial inspecting other beekeepers gains a great advantage in competing, we could also talk about the inspector, who knew yard locations due to paperwork and transport schedules, who had a bad year and stole 100 hives from South Carolina and got caught. I guess I don't understand what you don't get about that. 
As to this state initiative the key points here seem to be completely missed but those supposed to be our best and experienced beekeepers are suggesting we mow less? Do you really think this is a spear tip issue in beekeeping today?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> And therein lies the problem. The first discussion about bees in NY should be about what we have here in NY, and what we don't have. That's the first step to take with up to date data. Register the bee yards and assign a number to all beekeepers, charge a fee to register
> and get one of those Apiary Dept. IT guys to start accumulating data, then start the discussions.
> Otherwise it's a waste of time and money and will lead to policy decisions that simply don't apply to our situation. And lots of discussions where no one know's what the hell they're talking about due to sheer ignorance, us included.


Cycleroad You have a much clearer understanding of the crux of the inspection issue than most. Paul Cappy has gotten on my wrong side a couple of times over the years. Here's the thing, he is working with an impossibly small budget and not enough help to cover the bases. I would gladly pay an annual fee for inspections and if every beekeeper did we would have a great program. One of the most overlooked advantages of a good inspection program is what most of the newbees could learn from a good inspector in a very short period of time. Cornell and Dyce have never delivered on what we gave them in state monies. I know, I am one of those who foolishly helped get that money in the 1990's to re-invigorate Dyce. Meetings at Dyce, meeting with Senator Kuhl, think we got them 50K in 1995 or 1996> The Master Beekeeper program under Nick was never what it should have been and way over priced. They were teaching beekeepers to store their empty equipment to be overwintered underneath active hives and having rookies try "honey" in combs that was quickly identified as being sugar water by somone who never kept a bee or ate much honey in her life. What a rank amateur program. Much more could be done through the cooperative extension outreach but they are too busy taking care of the welfare lifers teaching them to cook and farmers no longer matter. New York has an inherent and persistent AFB issue, subtract Antibiotics and the 1st 4000 hive operation that runs out of the tons they bought for reserve, let them have an outbreak and move those hives all over the country and it's gonna get ugly.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

wildbranch2007 said:


> I'll go with the registration, and when you register or get inspected you should get a large bright sticker that must go in each yard, so that others can determine that the yard is registered or inspected each year.


Ha! I get inspected/sampled every year in NY. Inspector leaves bright yellow stickers on sampled hives and they wind up as trash blowing about my apiaries.

I would agree to the registration. We pay $10/apiary in Vermont, but nothing in NY. I have 23 NY apiaries and would like to see registration and maybe
semi-annual inspection...at least for the backyard beekeepers. When I locate a new apiary in NY, and because there's no registration, I don't know if I'm locating near another apiary.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Actually, that person you elude to is part of this very conversation, from what I have been told. And that can't happen now?

You and I had a conversation about being in competition with each other when I was still employed as an Inspector. Even though we live 250 miles away from each other, making our bee territory that far apart and noncompetitive, our markets are even farther away from each other. So I did not see how I was competitive to the extent of keeping anyone else from doing anything they wanted to beekeepingwise. Did you take this to Ag&Mkts? Or someone else like your Legislator?

Less mowing as the spearhead? No, I don't think it is or should be. Besides, from what I saw at the last Task Force meeting, it appears as though DOT has been on top of this for quite some time.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> When I locate a new apiary in NY, and because there's no registration, I don't know if I'm locating near another apiary.


And since that information is confidential, by Law I think, Ag&Mkts can't tell you.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Actually, that person you elude to is part of this very conversation, from what I have been told. And that can't happen now?
> 
> You and I had a conversation about being in competition with each other when I was still employed as an Inspector. Even though we live 250 miles away from each other, making our bee territory that far apart and noncompetitive, our markets are even farther away from each other.


Mark, we had many qood inspectors who ran commercial operations who had integrity, I know of at least two that did not. I don't have to protect myself from you, I have to protect myself from them. The inspection program should stand alone and be able pay a few qualified inspectors well to do a great job in season and perhaps conduct education and outreach in the off season.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Joel said:


> The inspection program should stand alone and be able pay a few qualified inspectors well to do a great job in season and perhaps conduct education and outreach in the off season.


Yup.:thumbsup: And if anyone thinks it could be funded by registration fees they got their head up their butt. It wouldn't cover the paper work.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Inspections are hardly the heart of the matter as well. Here in BC, registration is mandatory, inspection is free. That is simply a public service to support agriculture. Its important to beekeepers, but marginally important to the issue of pollination and the health of pollinators overall. The "other" pollinators are much more important that honeybees as a group. 

Inspections are like finding the horse after its left the barn though I can see it would be a really good education tool and help keep beekeepers on their toes, especially large ones. Widespread breeding for resistance is the cornerstone for resilience. Interregional restrictions of bee movement prevents new problems from being imported or slows them down. A program that doesn't do these things isn't worth the paper its written on.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joel said:


> The inspection program should stand alone and be able pay a few qualified inspectors well to do a great job in season and perhaps conduct education and outreach in the off season.


I agree.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

> Here in BC, registration is mandatory, inspection is free.


Same here in Nova Scotia. It's part of the department of Agriculture. There aren't that many of us here, so we have one guy who covers 2 jobs, so he can be full time. I've never been inspected; never even met the guy, but IMHO, one of his biggest chores is communication. He's the only person that has the ability to gather information at a single source, and identify potential problems before they get out of hand. To me, he couldn't do that job very effectively without mandatory registration.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Yup.:thumbsup: And if anyone thinks it could be funded by registration fees they got their head up their butt. It wouldn't cover the paper work.


Brian, take a long hard look at your profile, a long hard look at what you posted and then a long hard look in the mirror! Of course once again you add a rude comment that adds no value to the conversation and that issue has been reflected by many, many other members here, your own poll and still you just continue. 

Of course absolutely no one suggested it would be funded by registrations fees alone. My comment indicated I would gladly pay a registration fee, as honey bees add several billion dollars of value to the state economy so some of it should be supported by tax dollars. I have more to add but I for one am no longer going to give you any credibility on this post by reading or responding to your posts.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Joel said:


> Of course absolutely no one suggested it would be funded by registrations fees alone.


I think they do and I think they have.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

gnor said:


> Same here in Nova Scotia. It's part of the department of Agriculture. There aren't that many of us here, so we have one guy who covers 2 jobs, so he can be full time. I've never been inspected; never even met the guy, but IMHO, one of his biggest chores is communication. He's the only person that has the ability to gather information at a single source, and identify potential problems before they get out of hand. To me, he couldn't do that job very effectively without mandatory registration.


Here in NY, we get no communications from the inspectors office, most all of the real communications comes from beesource and bee-l and beeks passing it along. really is a sorry situation.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> Here in NY, we get no communications from the inspectors office, most all of the real communications comes from beesource and bee-l and beeks passing it along. really is a sorry situation.


Mike, currently only beekeepers needing interstate permits are getting inspected. Kris calls me every year to set up my inspections, if I can't make it out with him he calls me if he sees any issues of concern of any kind, I get a copy of his inspection report a week later and then a week after that I got my interstate transport certificate from Paul Cappy. Pretty good service considering I think we have 3 guys covering the whole state.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I think they do and I think they have.


And yet you don't quote a single one!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I think they do and I think they have.










Originally Posted by *Joel* 
Of course absolutely no one suggested it would be funded by registrations fees alone."

Brian belongs to a local bee club, MidYork Beekeepers, who one time did say that they didn't need NYS supplied Apiary Inspection, that they could do it on their own. This proved not to be the case.

One of the reasons we have the inspection program that we have is because when the time came for a change in the Bee Law requiring mandatory registration it was made quite clear that if a registration fee was included in the Law that eshpa members would not support it. The NY Farm Bureau still has it among their position resolutions that FB does not support mandatory registration of apiaries or beekeepers if a fee is involved.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> Here in NY, we get no communications from the inspectors office, most all of the real communications comes from beesource and bee-l and beeks passing it along. really is a sorry situation.


Well, even though I know what you mean and agree with what you wrote there has almost never been a year when someone from Ag&Mkts hasn't addressed the meeting attendees to report what was found that year. Paul Cappy will be at the eshpa Fall Mtng on the agenda of speakers.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> One of the reasons we have the inspection program that we have is because when the time came for a change in the Bee Law requiring mandatory registration it was made quite clear that if a registration fee was included in the Law that eshpa members would not support it. The NY Farm Bureau still has it among their position resolutions that FB does not support mandatory registration of apiaries or beekeepers if a fee is involved


I am extremely interested in the reasoning behind these stances. And if deemed sound then, does it still apply.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Originally Posted by *Joel*
> Of course absolutely no one suggested it would be funded by registrations fees alone."
> One of the reasons we have the inspection program that we have is because when the time came for a change in the Bee Law requiring mandatory registration it was made quite clear that if a registration fee was included in the Law that eshpa members would not support it. The NY Farm Bureau still has it among their position resolutions that FB does not support mandatory registration of apiaries or beekeepers if a fee is involved.[/QUOT
> 
> I get that part of it, there are so many laws, rules and fees everywhere we turn and more and more just keep on coming. It would be good if we stopped calling our legislators law makers and started calling them law fixers. I think we could throw the most of it out and start with a what do we really need list You and I need inspections not because we have disease, we do and we will but we will find it long before an inspector does because we have to or we don't make a living. We need inspections for interstate permits. We have 75 beekeepers in Chemung County (according to our Bee Club) as well as 2 operations running 200 or more hives. Many of those hobbyist need education about disease which will best come from a good inspection/education program and I need protection from the many who throw a hive in the back yard and would not know AFB until the hive was robbed out and that infected honey spread to 50 other locations. I don't need the national honey board as much as I need state inspections. I despise all the government in our lives as much or more than the next guy. We are making new laws and spending money in the wrong places. Again I look back at the old cooperative extension service where professionals went afield to work with farmers. At one point Cornell was involved in inspections. The right person could put together a really good program serving a wide variety of beekeeper needs, and I want to stress the word serving, that could have multiple forms of financing making it a burden for no one.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> I am extremely interested in the reasoning behind these stances. And if deemed sound then, does it still apply.


What more can I tell you?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joel said:


> At one point Cornell was involved in inspections.


I was not aware of that. In what way? When?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

No one wants government oversight until the fields flood or burn up, the chickens get the flu, the apples freeze, the grapes get diseased, the pumpkin crop fails,
the asian beetle kills the trees, the potato rots in the ground or the bees die off or cheap imported honey gets dumped here. Then the first thing those effected do is look for the government and the aid, and ask
what took them so long to help.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Joel said:


> Mike, currently only beekeepers needing interstate permits are getting inspected. Kris calls me every year to set up my inspections, if I can't make it out with him he calls me if he sees any issues of concern of any kind, I get a copy of his inspection report a week later and then a week after that I got my interstate transport certificate from Paul Cappy. Pretty good service considering I think we have 3 guys covering the whole state.





wildbranch2007 said:


> Here in NY, we get no communications from the inspectors office, most all of the real communications comes from beesource and bee-l and beeks passing it along. really is a sorry situation.


sorry I should have been more specific. Thinks like when oxalic got approved, was notified here. Like what the agenda of the AIAC meeting will be, they won't tell you(and I ask continually) before the meeting, but say you have a voice as you can have your rep. bring up issues, but they wouldn't publish who the reps were. It's nice that you get some notifications but the 99% of the other beeks are left in the dark. good thing it stopped raining or I would get started and find it hard to stop.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Joel said:


> Many of those hobbyist need education about disease which will best come from a good inspection/education program and I need protection ...


"We" need went to "I" need pretty quick.
Anytime a government body is involved it is more about enforcement then education. If the government of NY wanted to educate people who have hives they could use all of their state institutions at the community college level by offering a free bee course to any resident. Field trips could be made to individual hives and learning could occur with out the "enforcers". The costs would be minimal and I doubt there would be much objections from the residents of NYS.

As it stands now education comes from local bee clubs who have volunteers that teach classes. I think our club has pretty good classes. But unfortunately as a general rule these clubs have a reputation of pouncing on newbies with a list of things you must do to be considered a "responsible" beekeeper. That attitude has nothing to do with teaching, it has to do with "I" need you to do this... (the enforcers). And so you will never get support for any program anywhere that involves enforcers.

The state does recognize that the highest risk to it's citizens come from large operations not small operations and like all regulating bodies they concentrate on the big ones as it should be.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Well, even though I know what you mean and agree with what you wrote there has almost never been a year when someone from Ag&Mkts hasn't addressed the meeting attendees to report what was found that year. Paul Cappy will be at the eshpa Fall Mtng on the agenda of speakers.


That's nice and what % of the beeks can attend the meeting, and you are nice enough to put a small blurb in the news letters, but in todays world with the communications available, they do nothing. I offered Mr Cappy to find all the email address of all the bee clubs in the state(even though if he actually had any interest he would have them) and send out the information to all of them. It appears to me that they don't want the information disseminated as he proceeded to ignore my free offer. I have to file a FOIL request for the meetings I can't attend, when some one is nice enough to let me know when they are, as I email them regularly asking, and never receive an answer.:digging::w: 
but I can be a persistent pain


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> The state does recognize that the highest risk to it's citizens come from large operations not small operations and like all regulating bodies they concentrate on the big ones as it should be.


There is also an efficiency thing to keep in mind. The bigger bang for the buck rationale. Any regulation or lack of regulation is bound to effect the professional/larger holder more so than the smaller, simply because of visibility.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Brian belongs to a local bee club, MidYork Beekeepers, who one time did say that they didn't need NYS supplied Apiary Inspection, that they could do it on their own. This proved not to be the case.


I'm a member of the MidYork also, when was the club asked? What was the result that proved not to be the case. nobody tells me anything:waiting:


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> One of the reasons we have the inspection program that we have is because when the time came for a change in the Bee Law requiring mandatory registration it was made quite clear that if a registration fee was included in the Law that eshpa members would not support it. The NY Farm Bureau still has it among their position resolutions that FB does not support mandatory registration of apiaries or beekeepers if a fee is involved.


I can agree with the above, it's the american way, put the roadblock in the way that the ESHPA members don't want to pay a fee, and the state inspect you for free, now I understand the methods to your madness.:thumbsup:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> I offered Mr Cappy to find all the email address of all the bee clubs in the state(even though if he actually had any interest he would have them) and send out the information to all of them. It appears to me that they don't want the information disseminated as he proceeded to ignore my free offer.


I think Paul thinks he already has that information. Not that I really know, just that that's what I think. I do know that a couple months ago we compared lists, eshpa's and Cappy's, and eshpa had one more club than he did.

If you have an e-mail list, a list of e-mails to each and every club in NY I would love to have it. I have found it next to impossible to come up with such a list. Some clubs only have a Website. Some only a Facebook Page. I tried communicating with one club, asking where their meeting was and why they didn't publish it on their Facebook Page, why announce a meeting and not say where it is being held, and they said they didn't like publishing the names and addresses of their members. So you run into those sorts of problems.

Get me that list. Let's see if it's any different than what I already have, somewhere.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> I think Paul thinks he already has that information. Not that I really know, just that that's what I think. I do know that a couple months ago we compared lists, eshpa's and Cappy's, and eshpa had one more club than he did.
> 
> If you have an e-mail list, a list of e-mails to each and every club in NY I would love to have it. I have found it next to impossible to come up with such a list. Some clubs only have a Website. Some only a Facebook Page. I tried communicating with one club, asking where their meeting was and why they didn't publish it on their Facebook Page, why announce a meeting and not say where it is being held, and they said they didn't like publishing the names and addresses of their members. So you run into those sorts of problems.
> 
> Get me that list. Let's see if it's any different than what I already have, somewhere.


I was going to try it last winter, but if he already has a list, why or why pray tell do we get no information:ws:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> I'm a member of the MidYork also, when was the club asked? What was the result that proved not to be the case. nobody tells me anything:waiting:


This was well before your time. Yours and Brian's. Back in the late 1990s, maybe. I may be misrepresenting the attitude. But as I perceived it, it was a go it alone, we don't need inspection, we can police ourselves, sort of thing.

Apiary Inspection came into existence because the industry was killing itself with AFB. AFB levels were epidemic, across most States in the Union. Not just NY State. It was set up to address the problem. It protected beekeepers from other beekeepers by the inspection of beehives and then burning diseased hives. I don't even know if there initially was any paperwork done. I can well imagine that when AFB was found a hole was dug right then and there and a fire built. Get it done.

A good friend of mine was an inspector back in the 1960s. I bet he could tell some stories. Paul Cappy started back then too. Was a time when Inspectors worked in teams, never alone. They inspected each and every hive in the yards. We used to do that too, during my time as an Inspector. Inspecting all of the hives. Early in my career I worked alone and then, on some jobs with lots of hives per apiary, I worked with another Inspector. But mostly Apiary Inspectors work alone or with the beekeeper.

Rambled there a little, without a point. Sorry.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> I can agree with the above, it's the american way, put the roadblock in the way that the ESHPA members don't want to pay a fee, and the state inspect you for free, now I understand the methods to your madness.:thumbsup:


Would you like to pay what they pay in FL? I have a rough understanding that one pays a certain amount to register each yard, then pays to have hives inspected at an hourly rate, including travel time and mileage. I don't know from experience whether the cost is onerous, but I understand it is somewhat expensive.

When I finished being an Inspector I was making $18.00 plus per hour and getting the Federal Mileage Rate, 48 cents per mile I think. Reimbursed for meals and lodging when I spent time away from home. That was 2006. So let's call it $20.00/hr and 50 cents per mile just to make the math easy.

Kris Stevens leaves home, Wolcott, NY, I don't know, around 200 miles from here, and travels to St Lawrence Co in about 3 or 3.5 hrs. That would cost the State $100.00 mileage and $60.00 or $70.00 Labor, just to get here. Then he spends another three or four hours inspecting a couple of my yards. That's another $80.00. Then he drives home again. He can't spend the night to work on someone else's yards. There is no over night travel budget, as far as I know. So there is another $170.00 just to get him back home. Total cost: $420.00. How much of that would you like to pay?

I have an answer. Do you? It might depend on how much it is worth to have an Interstate Transport Health Certificate. If you are a commercial migratory beekeeper. It might depend on whether you have a problem with your bees that you don't recognize or know what to do with if you are not. Food for thought.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> I have heard numbers from Cappy. But I don't recall them clearly. I recall Paul mentioning those numbers in an AIAC Mtng or one of the PP Task Force Mtngs. Maybe Mike could find them in his copies of AIAC Minutes.


you picked a good time to volunteer me, I just went and cleared my disk of all the documentation I had, but I don't remember him saying anything specific about numbers, and any number he had would be WAG, I once went through the number of people on beesource who list an address in NY, I can't remember the number I came up with but It was a lot higher than I expected. Do you know if the AIAC meeting is going to be on the Fri. before your meeting and at the Fairgrounds again?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> I have an answer. Do you? It might depend on how much it is worth to have an Interstate Transport Health Certificate. If you are a commercial migratory beekeeper. It might depend on whether you have a problem with your bees that you don't recognize or know what to do with if you are not. Food for thought.


don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating one way or the other for inspections. I've been inspect twice in 35 years, the gist of the conversation from the above posts and the AIAC meetings, is the commercial guys are worried about the non commercial beeks causing outbreaks of diseases. But most of the nucs are sold by commercial beeks in NY and packages pretty much come from commercial guys down south. From a post on bee-l from my memory, the person who resides in NY, stated that they think that the reason that AFB hasn't reared it's ugly head with no inspections being done, is that the bees are dying from mites b/4 AFB gets a chance to get going. I tend to agree with this theory.

Now when the large supply of antibiotics that the commercial guys may be hoarding(no facts entered into evidence), when they run out, the above statement about the mites taking out the AFB may not hold any more. Now that brings up the discussion at one of the AIAC meetings about getting the state to supply( not probably the best way to state it)
the antibiotics if they are needed. I saw no answer, but since the current law is to burn AFB, I assume that they didn't agree to that.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> sorry I should have been more specific. Thinks like when oxalic got approved, was notified here. Like what the agenda of the AIAC meeting will be, they won't tell you(and I ask continually) before the meeting, but say you have a voice as you can have your rep. bring up issues, but they wouldn't publish who the reps were. It's nice that you get some notifications but the 99% of the other beeks are left in the dark. good thing it stopped raining or I would get started and find it hard to stop.


Very good points Mike. I think your AFB statements are right on point, I know for sure there are a few years supply of Antibiotics out there and when they are gone we will go back to where we were before sulfa drugs were 1st used because without them, with a lot fewer beekeepers in the country to have and spread AFB, it could not be managed.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I was making $18.00 plus per hour


 Unless it was done by contract the tax payer was most likely paying double.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> It protected beekeepers from other beekeepers by the inspection of beehives and then burning diseased hives.


And may I remind you that in 1990 backyard beekeeping was not popular. So how did the epidemic happen? I suspect from beekeepers in the know masking their problem with antibiotics and make it worse. And that is precisely why big needs to be regulated. It has nothing to do with visibility. Big Brother has the means to see every bird house in every back yard if they wanted to.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> Do you know if the AIAC meeting is going to be on the Fri. before your meeting and at the Fairgrounds again?


I can't keep up with remembering everything I send out, but I am pretty sure I forwarded you something about that. But to answer your question.

The next AIAC Mtng is Thursday, Nov. 19th, at the State Fair Grounds. I believe it will start at 10:00 AM. But maybe it will start at 9:00 AM. If you have Stephen O. Wilson's e-mail address, let Stephen know that you will be there so they will have a bag lunch for you.

No official agenda has gone out, of course, but I am sure that the Pollinator Protection Plan, PPP, will be discussed. Probably an update on Scott McArt's study at Cornell. Probably something from Extension Honeybee Specialist Emma Mullen too. Otherwise, who knows.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> .............. How much of that would you like to pay?
> 
> I have an answer. Do you? It might depend on how much it is worth to have an Interstate Transport Health Certificate. If you are a commercial migratory beekeeper. It might depend on whether you have a problem with your bees that you don't recognize or know what to do with if you are not. Food for thought.


Register all beekeepers, hives and yards for data base purposes. State required inspections.
Privatize the inspectors. Have the State require standards for private inspectors, and make them an agent of the State with
computerized reporting to Ag and Mkts. 
Stand alone private bee inspector businesses following State mandates.
Then reduce everyones taxes by disbanding the dysfunctional State Apiary Department.

IMO There is enough potential business for many to consider 'bee inspector' as a viable business option.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> the gist of the conversation from the above posts and the AIAC meetings, is the commercial guys are worried about the non commercial beeks causing outbreaks of diseases.
> 
> 
> > Yup, I know. I don't hold that same fear. But others do. clyderoad and Joel, I believe share those fears and concerns.
> ...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> Register all beekeepers, hives and yards for data base purposes.
> Privatize the inspectors. Have the State require standards for private inspectors, and make them an agent of the State with
> computerized reporting to Ag and Mkts.
> Stand alone private bee inspector businesses following State mandates.
> ...


Privitization is not a new idea. In effect that is what MidYork was proposing they could do, but didn't.

Who would do the registering of yds for data base purposes?
Who would keep track of the accuracy of the data?
We already reduced the State Budget by a quarter of a million dollars when the force was reduced to 2.5 Inspectors and reduced travel budget.

If Apiary Inspectors are private business individuals, who would be using their services other than the commercial migratory beekeepers?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Should have added to above post: State required inspections.

will edit.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How often?
What if people don't comply?
Who would enforce?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

>yearly inspections. 
>they are in violation of state law.
>that apparatus already exists.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

">that apparatus already exists." But didn't you call for doing away with that apparatus, just now?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> ">that apparatus already exists." But didn't you call for doing away with that apparatus, just now?


Sherifff, NYS Police, even Ag & Mkts presently has an enforcement arm right?
Nearly every State Dept has an enforcement arm for violators of their laws/codes.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> And may I remind you that in 1990 backyard beekeeping was not popular. So how did the epidemic happen? I suspect from beekeepers in the know masking their problem with antibiotics and make it worse. And that is precisely why big needs to be regulated. It has nothing to do with visibility. Big Brother has the means to see every bird house in every back yard if they wanted to.


I was talking about the origins of the Apiary Inspection Programs across the Nation, which started in the 1930s, I believe. This was before there were any treatments for diseases available.

And to believe that in 1990 backyard beekeeping was not popular is an example of what you are unaware of, your naivete. Your lack of historical knowledge. Beekeeping has had many a renaissance over the last 150 years. The current surge in popularity is similar to the surge of interest which occurred during the "back to the land" movement of the 1970s. Which was preceded by the Health Food interest of the 1960s. There were a lot more beekeepers and apiaries in the 1990s then now, I dare say.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> Sherifff, NYS Police, even Ag & Mkts presently has an enforcement arm right?


The enforcement arm of Ag&Mkts is the NYS Troopers. If it takes going that far to gain access to an apiary or some place where diseased equipment is suspected to be stored. I know of only one case where that was the case. Where a State Trooper's presence was called for.

Uncomplied with AFB Quarantines taken to Court supposedly were thrown out because Judges have more important things to deal with and would rather not waste their time. As to my understanding, not personal knowledge or experience. Just reporting what I have heard over the years.


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## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

Alright wait a minute! This is America! Not Russia! We don't need or want a bee gestapo. Inspection is fine where it is. Voluntary and as requested. We need less govt intrusion and more extention.:lookout:
Nick


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> the person who resides in NY, stated that they think that the reason that AFB hasn't reared it's ugly head with no inspections being done, is that the bees are dying from mites b/4 AFB gets a chance to get going. I tend to agree with this theory."


I think that theory is apples and oranges. I believe the theory which has more to do with the incorrect use of antibiotics that is now frowned upon if not illegal is the reason. The treating of mites could be another epidemic that rears it's ugly head in the future if it hasn't already. It would be totally different if you could immunize a hive for AFB or Mites but treating after the fact is a short term solution. Quite honestly if you would stop convincing newbies to treat one of two things would happen. 1 All their bees would die and they would lose interest, (good for you) or 2 All of their bees wouldn't die and become resistant to the mite (good for you). I believe it was massive die offs of CCD that commercial beekeepers experienced who put bees in the spot light and drew all the backyard people into bees. Is there some twisted way of blaming the backyard beek for that?


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Now if you look at the track record of the beekeeping industry, then perhaps no beekeepers should be involved in a pollinator protection plan. The big problems in beekeeping are self inflicted wounds because of careless movement of biological material and then want to apply band aid solutions to structural problems. What credibility does this group have remaining? Near zero. Also beekeepers tend to know a little about one insect, and considering how bees are faring, not enough. Also, its conflict of interest. If you call yourself an industry, then chances are you are more interested in protecting a business model than caring for pollinators in general. This is true of most agricultural sectors. They have to be saved from themselves dirtying the nest. Look up the impacts of introduced pests, add up the economic value, and don't accept the status quo.

I hope a any pollinator protection group brings in input from ecologists/conservationists. They are far more likely to have useful unbiased views.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

funwithbees said:


> Alright wait a minute! This is America! Not Russia! We don't need or want a bee gestapo. Inspection is fine where it is. Voluntary and as requested. We need less govt intrusion and more extention.:lookout:
> Nick


Thanks, Nick. I am always encouraged when more voices bring their point of view to the table.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I believe it was massive die offs of CCD that commercial beekeepers experienced who put bees in the spot light and drew all the backyard people into bees. Is there some twisted way of blaming the backyard beek for that?


Why would you want to blame anyone for anything? What's the benefit?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

lharder said:


> Now if you look at the track record of the beekeeping industry.............



Please go into depth regarding that track record as you understand it and your experience with bees and the various forms of the bee business
so it's clear where you are coming from.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lharder said:


> Now if you look at the track record of the beekeeping industry, then perhaps no beekeepers should be involved in a pollinator protection plan. The big problems in beekeeping are self inflicted wounds because of careless movement of biological material and then want to apply band aid solutions to structural problems. What credibility does this group have remaining? Near zero. Also beekeepers tend to know a little about one insect, and considering how bees are faring, not enough. Also, its conflict of interest. If you call yourself an industry, then chances are you are more interested in protecting a business model than caring for pollinators in general. This is true of most agricultural sectors. They have to be saved from themselves dirtying the nest. Look up the impacts of introduced pests, add up the economic value, and don't accept the status quo.
> 
> I hope a any pollinator protection group brings in input from ecologists/conservationists. They are far more likely to have useful unbiased views.


Very well stated, lharder. Rest assured the NYS Pollinator Protection Task Force is not made up of beekeepers. Only 2 out of 20 persons on the task force are beekeepers.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Why would you want to blame anyone for anything?


It appears from the posts that some people what to blame back yard beeks for a problem that doesn't even exist and when it did they weren't around. The have some crazy idea that government should protect their financial investment at the cost of everyone. What single industry is protected by government and funded by everyone?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> What more can I tell you?


re: when the time came for a change in the Bee Law requiring mandatory registration it was made quite clear that if a registration fee was included in the Law that eshpa members would not support it. The NY Farm Bureau still has it among their position resolutions that FB does not support mandatory registration of apiaries or beekeepers if a fee is involved

the sole reason mandatory registration is not supported is because of a fee? hard to believe it's so simple, but
if it is then mandatory registration should be free. And the fines for not registering in the free system set high . 
Simple solution that FB and ESHPA should have no problem with.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Registration of one's apiaries is still part of the NYS Bee Laws, regardless. There is also Voluntary Registration, which it seems as though no one knows. Which doesn't surprise me since the fact is not advertised and the benefits are nebulous since the only actual inspection is done on commercial migratory beekeepers.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

View attachment NYS APIARY REDISTRATION PI-134.pdf

Do you mean the Honey Bee Health Registration Form?
Also see this from the NYS Ag&Mkts website (note the chart):
http://www.agriculture.ny.gov/PI/apiary_inspection.html



sqkcrk said:


> Registration of one's apiaries is still part of the NYS Bee Laws, regardless. There is also Voluntary Registration, which it seems as though no one knows. Which doesn't surprise me since the fact is not advertised and the benefits are nebulous since the only actual inspection is done on commercial migratory beekeepers.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I guess so. I have never seen that form. Where did you find it? On the Ag&Mkts Website? I have asked if there was anything that Ag&Mkts would like eshpa to have on the eshpa website. Seems like that would be a good link to have on the eshpa website. If anyone wants to know how to register their yards.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

clyderoad said:


> The NY Farm Bureau still has it among their position resolutions that FB does not support mandatory registration of apiaries or beekeepers if a fee is involved


Can some one tell me what FB stands for? I am sure it isn't face book.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

clyderoad said:


> And the fines for not registering in the free system set high .
> Simple solution that FB and ESHPA should have no problem with.


I'm not privy to inside information, but I think there is a distinct problem. the FB tried to get regulations in place on the beeks, and they didn't ask the ESHPA first. I don't think they get along now. call it politics, call it what you want. but the only resolution I see on the horizon, is that beeks had better be ready to move hives when anyone decides to spray.
and add in that many beeks trust neither of the organizations and the discussion will be as confusing as this thread gets. I know no one that wants inspections as things are now, but those people mostly would go with inspections and registration. When AFB becomes a major problem, I expect most will just give up and things will go back to the way they were years ago. so what's your poison:kn:


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

no ones yelling at you Mark, but you do head up the organization the says it represents all beeks.opcorn:


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> they think that the reason that AFB hasn't reared it's ugly head with no inspections being done, is that the bees are dying from mites b/4 AFB gets a chance to get going. I tend to agree with this theory.
> 
> My Theory. I'm the one who has brought that theory up for 2 years or more.
> 
> ...


I think you make a very strong point here.

Could it be that the better beekeepers become at managing the destruction caused by mites we see a resurgence of AFB?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wildbranch2007 said:


> no ones yelling at you Mark, but you do head up the organization the says it represents all beeks.opcorn:


That is not fair Mike. If I was into the reputation thing I would give you a red mark. Mark is an officer of one bee club in the state of NY. Far from representing all beeks.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Home page of the ESHPA* web site 


> ESHPA *open to all beekeepers in NYS, from the hobbyist with one hive, to the commercial migratory beekeeper with thousands. *This is made clear in the preamble of the bylaws: ...
> 
> http://www.eshpa.org/




* Empire State Honey Producers (in NY State - Mark / _sqkcrk_ is President of ESHPA)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Can some one tell me what FB stands for? I am sure it isn't face book.


My apology. I usually try to spell things out and then use the abbreviation later. FB stands for Farm Bureau.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> I'm not privy to inside information, but I think there is a distinct problem. the FB tried to get regulations in place on the beeks, and they didn't ask the ESHPA first. I don't think they get along now. call it politics, call it what you want. but the only resolution I see on the horizon, is that beeks had better be ready to move hives when anyone decides to spray.
> and add in that many beeks trust neither of the organizations and the discussion will be as confusing as this thread gets. I know no one that wants inspections as things are now, but those people mostly would go with inspections and registration. When AFB becomes a major problem, I expect most will just give up and things will go back to the way they were years ago. so what's your poison:kn:


Relations between NY Farm Bureau and the Empire State Honey producers Association are just fine. I don't know what leads you to suspect otherwise.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> no ones yelling at you Mark, but you do head up the organization the says it represents all beeks.opcorn:


"Promoting the interests of New York State Beekeepers since 1867" I don't see anywhere in that statement the word "all".

Here, from the By Laws is the stated purpose of ESHPA. "

ARTICLE II – PURPOSES The purposes for which this corporation has been organized are as follows:To promote and protect the interests of New York State beekeepers, and To form an association for mutual benefit of New York State honey producers; to promote and assist in efforts to preserve and protect the honey bee; to assist New York State honey producers in promoting, marketing and publicizing honey and hive products and educate the public to the value of honey bee pollination; to aid in presenting a uniform point of view on concerns of New York State honey producers to state and federal agencies and public.To procure uniformity and certainty in customs and usages of trade and commerce, and of those having a common trade, business, financial or professional interest; to promote a more enlarged and friendly intercourse among beekeepers.To do any other act or thing incidental to or connected with the foregoing purposes or in advancement thereof, but not for the pecuniary profit or financial gain of its members, directors,or officers except as permitted under Article 5 of the Not-For-Profit Corporation Law."

Maybe I missed it, but, again, nothing about the word "all". Or even the word "the". As in "the beekeepers of NY".

I'm glad you aren't yelling at me. That would hurt my feelings.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

clyderoad said:


> Could it be that the better beekeepers become at managing the destruction caused by mites [that] we [will] see a resurgence of AFB?


Bracketed words are mine. I think that's what you meant though, right?

Maybe. I have no idea.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Mark is an officer of one bee club in the state of NY.


At least until 5:00 PM Friday, November 20, 2015. Further than that remains to be seen.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

let me summarize the response to registration/inspection:lookout:

I did a quick dirty search of the member list. searched on location NY and New York. found 31 pages at 30 persons per page. cut it down to 20 people per page because Germany and a few other places get picked up in the search. so that leaves 600 beeks that have signed up to beesource from NY. out of the 600, six have joined the discussion, four are commercial, one is a sideliner, and one is an acebird. My interpretation of the jousting leads me to think two of the commercials are for inspection, one doesn't want things to change, and Mark will go with the ESHPA, I don't care either way, and acebid doesn't want the gestapo in his back yard either. the rest of the 594 beeks either haven't/don't logon any more or are not interested either way because nothing concrete, with the exception of more information, has been decided.:ws:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

When something that effects those other 594 happens, like mandatory registration or the Pollinator Protection Plan, we will hear from more of them.

Some of them may actually stand up at their own Local Club Meetings and ask, "Why didn't I hear about this before now? Why didn't you tell us? Why didn't you protect us from this? And who does ESHPA think it is doing what ESHPA thinks is right for its membership without asking us?"

I hope that the Club President's Summit at the ESHPA Fall Mtng will produce connections and facilitate networking. We will see.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> 600 beeks that have signed up to beesource from NY.


Do you know if there is a way to communicate directly to all 600 with one message? A mass PM, in a way? I guess that's what this Thread is, isn't it. Just wondered if there was any way to get more response.

Six out of 600. What is that, one percent? Oh well.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

wildbranch2007 said:


> let me summarize the response to registration/inspection:lookout:
> 
> I did a quick dirty search of the member list. searched on location NY and New York. found 31 pages at 30 persons per page. cut it down to 20 people per page because Germany and a few other places get picked up in the search. so that leaves 600 beeks that have signed up to beesource from NY. out of the 600, six have joined the discussion, four are commercial, one is a sideliner, and one is an acebird.


Someone hasn't grabbed you up and made you an officer of a club? Their loss!


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Do you know if there is a way to communicate directly to all 600 with one message? A mass PM, in a way? I guess that's what this Thread is, isn't it. Just wondered if there was any way to get more response.
> 
> Six out of 600. What is that, one percent? Oh well.


The 600 goes more to how many beeks are in NY, I looked at the search criteria and selected anyone that had posted since 1/1/15 and only get about 100 people, then selected on posts over 20 and get even less. doing a random look at profiles, I get about 20 people out of the 100 that have actually logged in during the months of Oct and Nov. not including guests. Guess we should have gotten the discussion going during the summer. so I guess that getting 6 out of 20 talking about it would be considered a quorum at an AIAC meeting.:thumbsup:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Be aware though, one doesn't have to login to read postings. There is an unknown percent of members that create an account but remain in lurker status and an even greater number that lurk without creating an account.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Six? that is it... If 600 signed up I doubt if 600 are active readers. It might be only 60.
Mark, certainly you have the contact numbers of all the club officers and most likely their email address. Maybe you have already sent them notice. Then it is up to them to distribute your notice to their membership either by meetings or email membership. I can't remember if I got notice from my club or not. I would have ignored it because I am getting it from the horses mouth here on BS.

The basic problem I see is people do not have any faith in government regardless of what party affiliation you have. Most in the state are oiling their guns for the hunting season. At least I hope that is why they are oiling them.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> I have heard numbers from Cappy. But I don't recall them clearly. I recall Paul mentioning those numbers in an AIAC Mtng or one of the PP Task Force Mtngs. Maybe Mike could find them in his copies of AIAC Minutes.


found what he said finally.



> -Cappy, "We would need to know how many beekeepers we have in the State. Last known numbers from registrations were 2,000 beekeepers, 35 Commercial Operations, 10 of which migrate out of State.


 now since 600 have id's on beesouce and out of the 100+ people that belong to our small club and only 10% use beesouce I think there would be far more than 2,000.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Acebird said:


> That is not fair Mike. If I was into the reputation thing I would give you a red mark.


Now that's funny I don't care where you're from! Somehow I don't think Barry intended the reputation "thing" as something to be wielded against other members like a threat!

As to the numbers of beeks, I know our local club has 75 attending members, I know of at least 5 who are not members and we are a small county. Are there 67 counties in NY - Mark, how many well placed, well trained inspectors would it take to cover the state adequately in your mind? How many yards could you inspect in a week if they were within say 75 miles of home base? When you worked was it full state benefits and retirement in one of the tiers?

In regards to Cornell involvement in inspections, one of the troopers I worked with, Jim Clark, had bees in the ,70's, he indicated his inspections were done by trained Cornell students, I'm assuming connected to Dyce lab program but can't say for sure.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> so I guess that getting 6 out of 20 talking about it would be considered a quorum at an AIAC meeting.:thumbsup:


Never mind, what happens at the AIAC has nothing to do with ESHPA and I am not an AIAC member, so I feel no need to defend what happens at the AIAC.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Mark, certainly you have the contact numbers of all the club officers and most likely their email address.


As I stated earlier, I do not have contact numbers or e-mail addresses for every club officer. If by that you mean the officers of every local bee club in NY State. They are either impossible to find or only have a Facebook Page.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Joel said:


> Are there 67 counties in NY - Mark, how many well placed, well trained inspectors would it take to cover the state adequately in your mind? How many yards could you inspect in a week if they were within say 75 miles of home base? When you worked was it full state benefits and retirement in one of the tiers?


When I worked back in the 1980s we inspected every fourth yard in the County Lists as a data base for statistical analysis. My first year I worked Warren, Washington, Essex, most of but not all of Clinton, Niagara, Monroe, Orleans, Chataqua, Suffolk, Nassau, and most of St. Lawrence Counties. Inspected every fourth yard in the listing. And when I had time went back and did more in each Township. I can't tell you how many yards that was, but it was 15,000 miles and about half the season away from home.

Employment was full time. We had Health Insurance. Much better than what I pay for now. Tier 4. Got about $7,000.00 when I cashed out earlier this year. That's all there was in the account. That's what I got after taxes were taken out anyway. Twenty seasons turned into 7.5 years when the number of months were counted.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Acebird said:


> That is not fair Mike. If I was into the reputation thing I would give you a red mark. Mark is an officer of one bee club in the state of NY. Far from representing all beeks.


You mean the reputation thing you were lobbying for? Now suddenly not "into it". Funny.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jwcarlson said:


> You mean the reputation thing you were lobbying for? Now suddenly not "into it". Funny.


Oh that is funny...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> They are either impossible to find or only have a Facebook Page.


Man I could of swarn there was a thread on BS that listed clubs by state and if you clicked on the club you would get the officers. Maybe I am thinking of my old RC club days.

How about it Rader, Barry, is there such a thing?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

http://nybeewellness.org/resources/clubs/


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes, thanks, Michael. What I would like to have is a list of club contact persons and their e-mail addresses.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

I know you follow bee-l but I will give a link to a post about what may be brought up at the NY Pollination meeting about legalities of making beeks move.

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1511&L=bee-l&F=&S=&P=130709

>> Yes.. your allowing your bees to trespass on those 
>> lands.... and by doing so, you accept responsibility 
>> for them and their actions. Standard case law in any state.

Actually, no.

I've been reading up on this, as the NY State meetings about "pollinator protection" prompted me to wonder if any state could actually get away with what seems to be the agenda in NY, putting the onus on the beekeeper to move his hives from every use of pesticides, or accept whatever losses result. It does not seem that they can legally do this, but it may take a court order to "convince" them.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Yes, thanks, Michael. What I would like to have is a list of club contact persons and their e-mail addresses.


as to the list, why not talk with Cappy, see if you can get him to agree to make his ID/email id available to all the clubs, for an example the two clubs I belong to requires that you be approved and give them your id, then they will resend your emails to all members. Then take Michael's list make up a nice large sign with the clubs add in the information you and cappy already have, and ask everyone to update it upon entering your EPSHA meeting. I'm sure you would get more info.. then get cappy to use the listopcorn:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> I've been reading up on this, as the NY State meetings about "pollinator protection" prompted me to wonder if any state could actually get away with what seems to be the agenda in NY, putting the onus on the beekeeper to move his hives from every use of pesticides, or accept whatever losses result. It does not seem that they can legally do this, but it may take a court order to "convince" them.


I am not as convinced as James Fischer is that the agenda in NY is to put the onus on beekeepers and to allow the illegal misuse of pesticides.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> as to the list, why not talk with Cappy, see if you can get him to agree to make his ID/email id available to all the clubs, for an example the two clubs I belong to requires that you be approved and give them your id, then they will resend your emails to all members. Then take Michael's list make up a nice large sign with the clubs add in the information you and cappy already have, and ask everyone to update it upon entering your EPSHA meeting. I'm sure you would get more info.. then get cappy to use the listopcorn:


I already did that and what Cappy has is less, or should that be fewer, than what can be found on the eshpa website and, apparently, on the nybeewellness website.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> I am not as convinced as James Fischer is that the agenda in NY is to put the onus on beekeepers and to allow the illegal misuse of pesticides.


Mark, the federal plan already does this very specifically and explicitly....and remember, if your bees are on pollination contract and the farmer decodes he wants to spray, the state program doesn't apply....it is the fed program, amd as it stands, if someone decides to call it an emergency (my reading indicates that anything could be considered an emergency...certainly if the farmer thought not spraying would cost money that is a emergency), you will have 48 hours to move your bees.

The state programs are rather obviously going to end up with a similar set if rules....but in the example above, the state program does t even apply.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Then, Dean, should my position, as ESHPA President, be to condemn the Plan as one that doesn't protect pollinators but instead allows illegal use of pesticides?

I don't know what things are like for other beekeepers who place hives in paid pollination situations, but it has always been for me that when an orchard or blueberry farm wants the hives out I have had forewarning and time to take them out. It's how things are done, as far as I know. It is what I am prepared for and expect. It's what I am paid for.

If my hives are on pollination contract and the farmer decides he wants to spray, he's smart enough to know that if he kills my hives he won't see me next year. And the fact will be well known among beekeepers/pollinators. 

Maybe other's experience something different.

The greater potential for damage is when hives are in apiaries for honey production and a neighbor decides to spray a crop and do so in opposition to the label directions. How often that has happened, I don't know. Others do. Once is too often.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> http://nybeewellness.org/resources/clubs/


I looked up my club and it takes you to the Yahoo group that is run by one member of our club. You have to be a yahoo group member which I am not. Pretty useless as far as I can see for Mark's purpose. You mean to tell me the state inspectors don't even have updated contact information for all the club officers in NYS? And you are looking for a state wide inspection program? Boy that is a laugh.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Illustrates my point.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Illustrates my point.


You da man Mark. Welcome to politics.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Acebird said:


> I looked up my club and it takes you to the Yahoo group that is run by one member of our club. You have to be a yahoo group member which I am not. Pretty useless as far as I can see for Mark's purpose. You mean to tell me the state inspectors don't even have updated contact information for all the club officers in NYS? And you are looking for a state wide inspection program? Boy that is a laugh.


but acebird if the midyork bee club included cappies id in the yahoo group, he could send an email to the group id and all the people that are members of the group would get that message. I think I said this above in previous post but I typed slower this time as I don't think people understood.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> I am not as convinced as James Fischer is that the agenda in NY is to put the onus on beekeepers and to allow the illegal misuse of pesticides.


You go to the meetings so I will have to defer, but from every thing I have read, especially from AHPA, I think that is where it will end up.
From what I understand, as part of all this they will also change the labels to read that you have 48 hours to move when notified, so it will not be illegal


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> I already did that and what Cappy has is less, or should that be fewer, than what can be found on the eshpa website and, apparently, on the nybeewellness website.


right but if you took all that and got people to update it at your meetings, you would have a more complete list.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> If my hives are on pollination contract and the farmer decides he wants to spray, he's smart enough to know that if he kills my hives he won't see me next year. And the fact will be well known among beekeepers/pollinators.


and that is fine and works, but what about the orchard next door that wants to spray the day before, he doesn't/wouldn't notify you. In Lafayette there are 4 or 5 orchards side by side unless they all use the same beek, must get interesting.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wildbranch2007 said:


> but acebird if the midyork bee club included cappies id in the yahoo group, he could send an email to the group id and all the people that are members of the group would get that message.


What I am trying to explain is a yahoo group is a group of a group. If there a 100 members in MidYork there might be only 10 in the Yahoo group. Beeclubs can elect new officers every year. Mark needs the officers not the yahoo members that may not even be there three months after they join. And if the state of NY can not collect the officers of all the beeclubs in the state of NY where do you think you are going from there?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Acebird said:


> What I am trying to explain is a yahoo group is a group of a group. If there a 100 members in MidYork there might be only 10 in the Yahoo group. Beeclubs can elect new officers every year. Mark needs the officers not the yahoo members that may not even be there three months after they join. And if the state of NY can not collect the officers of all the beeclubs in the state of NY where do you think you are going from there?


by using the group, you get all of the people that belong to the group, including all of your current officers. Join the group and you would be amazed at whats on the site. by having access to all the current officers, you don't need to know when the officers change. really is very simply you are overthinking the solution, but I forget thats what engineers do. Mark doesn't have that excuse.:shhhh: I want information to flow to the beeks, I don't really give a rats behind about the officers deciding what should be passed along to the members, this set up is perfect, It gets forwarded almost immediately. according to the group information there are 160 people in the group, and it really can't be to hard to get emails through to non members as the last email sent to the group came from Pat Bono about the NY bee wellness survey and she doesn't belong to the mid york as far as I know, I'm sure some one from the state could figure it out.
the syracuse club has 80 members on there group, now if we add it up 160+80+240, that would be 240 people that would get the information if some one decided to send it out, last time I looked 240 is greater than 0, now that's also ASSUMING that some one really wants to get the information out.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

wildbranch2007 said:


> You go to the meetings so I will have to defer, but from every thing I have read, especially from AHPA, I think that is where it will end up.
> From what I understand, as part of all this they will also change the labels to read that you have 48 hours to move when notified, so it will not be illegal


I copied a post from a previous thread below on information contained in the AHPA magazine.



> anything copied here comes from the AHPA web site.
> 
> Apiary registrations whether voluntary or mandatory are not the panacea to pesticide related bee kills. Voluntary registration, and use of these apiary websites, or sensitive crop registry websites are not enforceable. The very nature they are voluntary gives a false sense of responsibility and communication. The “48 hour notice to move bees” is part of the digital registry programs. If a beekeeper is told to move their bees, and they do not, the responsibility for any bee losses due to the pesticide application falls to the beekeeper. The “48 hour notice to move bees” misses the point of the registry programs. These should be used to open communication, not speak in ultimatums. The registry programs could work better, if they opened a conversation between beekeeper, applicator, and farmer about the pesticides being selected. Is there a product to address the pest with a short residual toxicity? Can the short residual toxicity product be applied at night? How much of the crop has been pollinated, remains to be pollinated, and how will removing bees affect the crop yield? What is the pest threshold level as determined by Integrated Pest Management practices? If pollination is nearly completed, can the application be delayed a few days, so pollination can increase the crop yield? The registry programs should “start” a conversation between the agricultural stakeholders for the best management practice that will lead to increased crop yields, and healthy bees available to pollinate the next farmer’s crop. Instead, the “48 hour notice to move bees” is a label directive that has often become an ultimatum that stops communication. <--- the label is rewritten to put the burden on the beek instead of the sprayer also requires registration of yards
> 
> ...


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Any farmer _should_ know that if they spray on an open bloom that they are killing the pollinators (native, kept, cultivated, contracted) that they need.

Yet, even when it says specifically not to use on open bloom when bees are foraging....and even when everyone is well aware that the label is the law this is rather routinely violated in any number of blatant and more subtle ways.



Everyone should know better. The law is also clear and unambiguous. ...common sense and regulations don't prevail in the status quo.

If you move your bees because someone _needs _ to spray, it is because you believe (to the tune of deciding to move your hives) that your bees are likely to be poisened. Who is moving the other pollinators? Aren't they included in the MP3? 

 The language I remember is that anything we do to help honeybees is likely to help the other pollinators as well....the absurdity of the plan is that such an assumption is largely true _except_ for the one particular option of moving the honeybees.

As president of a club that I not a member of, you should not care what I think you should do or support.

I'm not clear if this ends up being illegal. FIRMA is certainly relevent, bUT once the label is changed (and some already have been) at the EPA level, I think it becomes the slippery unaccountable government who is breaking the law (via violating FIRFA) and not those who give a beekeeper that has 2 hives in their back yard and no car or truck 48 hours to move theor hives.

There is an attempt (which may be a foregone conclusion at this point) to shift the responsibility for pesticide damage to beekeepers from those that apply pesticides to those that keep bees....amd the native pollinators (and the environment ) be ****ed.

I predict if beekeepers stick with supporting such measures that we will quickly find ourselves (once again) in battle with the xerces folks...and they are better organized and have much more political and ground level support than beekeepers (remember that they successfully lobbied to keep the honeybee off the Pollinator stamps and they have huge influence in the environmental activist world).

I don't know what _you_ should do. I do know that a general lack of understanding (which is intentional by the language and mechanisms being used) helps the pesticide industry and gives state pesticide bureaucrats more Power.

I think this is all a done deal, it is up to beekeepers to decide if they will bother to understand what is being done and stand up in opposition.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

deknow said:


> I think this is all a done deal, it is up to beekeepers to decide if they will bother to understand what is being done and stand up in opposition.


yup, I agree


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

If the state organization offers something of value to the county and other local bee clubs, then the officers of those clubs are motivated to stay in touch.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> he could send an email to the group id and all the people that are members of the group would get that message.


Do you think Paul Cappy is likely to do something like that? Would being in the group give one access to everyone's e-mail address? I can't tell you how protective some clubs and some people are about e-mail addresses. As they should be.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> You go to the meetings so I will have to defer, but from every thing I have read, especially from AHPA, I think that is where it will end up.
> From what I understand, as part of all this they will also change the labels to read that you have 48 hours to move when notified, so it will not be illegal


My argument is with the word "agenda", meaning that the underlying intent is to do an end run around the already established Label Laws. And if that is what was already always the intention, then I have been foolish. And foolish to even be at the meetings and saying anything.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> right but if you took all that and got people to update it at your meetings, you would have a more complete list.


Assuming that someone from each Local Club comes to the ESHPA meetings and that they know what the correct and accurate updated information is.

I, as ESHPA President, have been contacted a couple of times from a couple of different keepers of Ag Industry Contact List keepers within NYS DAM. It's like they don't even talk to each other there. So just imagine how difficult it is for someone in ESHPA to keep track of this sort of information among all of the bee clubs in NYS. Keeping up with the new contact person and the new clubs that pop up so often these days. One if these days I expect to hear about a Club you can join that is all about how many clubs does one belong to.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> and that is fine and works, but what about the orchard next door that wants to spray the day before, he doesn't/wouldn't notify you. In Lafayette there are 4 or 5 orchards side by side unless they all use the same beek, must get interesting.


I have actually had that happen. And what happened was my orchard owner went and talked to the other orchard owner over concerns about drift. It was probably too late. But at least he talked to the guy. I'm sure he did that in part because he didn't want me blaming him for something his neighbor did. I appreciated the effort. I did not see any damage to my bees.

I have also had my hives still in orchards after petal fall and when spraying occurred. Noticed no ill effects. I don't know what is sprayed immediately after petal fall, but I believe it is an insecticide, not a fungicide.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mike, the 48 Hour Notification was addressed in the Draft Best Management Practices. It was noted by the person from DEC that it is impractical for various reasons for a beekeeper to even move their hives once supered for honey production regardless of the 48 hours notice.

It was also stated in the Draft BMPs that pesticide use should be, as is stated on pesticide labels I believe, used when bees are least apt to be exposed to the chemicals. Those being dusk and dawn. I suggested that "during the night" be added to that suggested BMP.

I don't know that we can satisfy all possible circumstances.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Mark, this is from Catch the Buzz from March of last year.

http://www.beeculture.com/catch-the-buzz-epa-move-or-die/

The 'stated intent':


> By December, the EPA stated this new pesticide label language would be “harmonized” across all chemistries. The label was meant to protect pollinators.


...so we protect pollinators as long as it is below 55 degres (even if it will be 80 degrees in 3 hours), after sunset, if the beekeeper is given 48 hours to move bees, OR (not and) the farmer thinks they might lose crops.



> The Pollinator Stewardship Council encourages beekeepers to document their costs due to moving bees in relation to this new label language for foliar applications of clothianidin, dinotefuran, imidacloprid, thiamethoxam, tolfenpyrad, and cyantraniliprole. Also, document if and when you are notified to move your bees.
> 
> Directions for Use
> 
> ...


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

HOLD ON MARK!

Perhaps I don't understand how things are going in NY State. What is the relationship between BMP and MP3?

My understanding is that BMP's are voluntary...the MP3 will be law.

Again, read the 'improved for pollinator protection' exceptions....if the farmer thinks he will lose crops, he can spray clothianidin, dinotefuran, imidacloprid, thiamethoxam, tolfenpyrad, and cyantraniliprole ...if he doesn't think he will lose crops, he can spray at 5am before it gets above 55 degrees.



sqkcrk said:


> Mike, the 48 Hour Notification was addressed in the Draft Best Management Practices. It was noted by the person from DEC that it is impractical for various reasons for a beekeeper to even move their hives once supered for honey production regardless of the 48 hours notice.
> 
> It was also stated in the Draft BMPs that pesticide use should be, as is stated on pesticide labels I believe, used when bees are least apt to be exposed to the chemicals. Those being dusk and dawn. I suggested that "during the night" be added to that suggested BMP.
> 
> I don't know that we can satisfy all possible circumstances.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

> The application is made in accordance with an active state-administered apiary registry program where beekeepers are notified no less than 48 hours prior to the time of planned application so that the bees can be removed, covered or otherwise protected prior to spraying


I think this is good enough reason to block the state from administering an active registry program. Without the progam, this condition can't be met.

Honestly Mark, I don't doubt your best intentions (they are clearly the best), but you need to pay more attention to the policy being proposed (and the specific language) and less to what the pestide industry and regulators are telling you they are trying to do.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> yup, I agree


Then there is nothing to talk about until the final draft is produced. And then we can all pick away at it, complain about it, go to our Representatives over it, and I don't know what.

As I stated at the first NYS PPTF Meeting, "My greatest hope is that we do no harm." I'm sure someone will be harmed. To what degree and what consequence remains to be seen.

The NYS PPP is supposed to be about recommended practices. Not Laws. Hopefully that's what the PPP will remain, recommendations, not Laws. I believe we have enough of those. And DEC wants to know about each pesticide related bee kill. They can't go to their Director and say we need more here if they don't have anything to show. So even if you don't think anything will happen if you do report a bee kill, at least that information can be used to better the response.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> If the state organization offers something of value to the county and other local bee clubs, then the officers of those clubs are motivated to stay in touch.


This is part of the situation. Seeing any value in being connected. The Local Clubs are doing, and are better able, better suited perhaps, to do, what their members want done to fulfill their needs. The ESHPA membership roles pale in comparison to some of the local clubs memberships. And they meet every month whereas ESHPA meets twice per year.

I would say, and this is not boasting, just my personal point of view, that the greatest benefit of associating with each other, the greatest value that all of the Bee Clubs could have by being associated with ESHPA could be greater understanding and comradery. Perhaps being kept up to date on matters like the NYS PPP. Perhaps being better informed on what is happening at the AIAC meetings. Even being an avenue to others and more others being on the AIAC. If that is anyone's concern or desire. 

And then, for some, it would be the opportunity to hear speakers one might not otherwise have occasion to hear.

I can tell you, the best part of many a bee meeting is the Hall Conversations, Meal Conversations, the one on one or small group discussions about what's going on in each other's outfit, establishing the fact that we are not all alone.

Those are the benefits as I see them. Kind of like why I go to Church. Why some folks belong to support groups.

An association of NYS Bee Club Presidents could be a support group. When I was first elected I leaned on a couple of Presidents of other State Associations. It helps to exchange ideas and stories.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> Mark, this is from Catch the Buzz from March of last year.
> 
> http://www.beeculture.com/catch-the-buzz-epa-move-or-die/
> 
> ...


Thanks. Good input.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> HOLD ON MARK!
> 
> Perhaps I don't understand how things are going in NY State. What is the relationship between BMP and MP3?
> 
> ...


My apologies if I used alphabet soup language incorrectly. I thought I had before using the abbreviation, BMP, also spelled out Best Management Practices. NY States Pollinator Protection Plan, NYS PPP, will have in it Best Management Practices (BMP) which each and every member of the New York State Pollinator Protection Task Force, aka the NYS PPTF, and all of the observers at the last meeting, got physical copies of during the last meeting of the NYS PPTF. Everyone there then had opportunity to respond, by e-mail communication, to and suggest alternate language on the Draft BMPs.

Am I wrong in assuming that MP3 stands for Massachusetts Pollinator Protection Plan?

The way I understand things, and I admit I am not the sharpest tool in the shed, the NYS PPP is something that Gov Cuomo wants to be used by State Agencies of NYS Government so that NYS Governments actions will show greater appreciation for and protection of "Honeybees, Native Pollinators, and Monarch Butterflies". This Plan will be a set of BMPs for State Government to follow. It will also be a set of BMPs for those in the Agricultural Industry in NY to follow, if they so choose. They are recommendations. Or they will be. Pesticide Applicators are addressed in the list of Draft BMP. Fruit growers and vegetable growers too.

Hope that help clarify things.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Do you think Paul Cappy is likely to do something like that? Would being in the group give one access to everyone's e-mail address? I can't tell you how protective some clubs and some people are about e-mail addresses. As they should be.


sorry but I feel like I'm typing uphill. IF THE CLUB AGREES TO ADD HIS ID TO THE LIST, HE DOES NOT GET EVERYONE'S EMAIL ADDRESS, THAT IS THE IDEA OF THE GROUP, IF HE INCLUDED, HE CAN SEND AN EMAIL TO THE GROUP, THE GROUP THEN FOWARDS THE EMAIL TO EVERYONE, NO NEED FOR ANYONE TO KNOW PEOPLES EMAIL ADDRESS.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Do you think Paul Cappy is likely to do something like that?


NO but he should, when Cornell had information to send out, they had lists of people to send to and the word got out and it wasn't even there job


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

deknow said:


> less to what the pesticide industry and regulators are telling you they are trying to do.


I have had no direct or indirect communication with or from the pesticide industry or the regulators on what they are trying to do. Other than hearing what people in the three meeting have had to say. And afterwards in conversation after the meeting in response to questions I had about pesticides. Such as why were neonics developed and what would we be using if we didn't have them. And those were questions I had. Not anything the pesticide people were trying to tell me about.

I'm not sure about what policy NY is trying to propose that I need to be better aware of. I have enough to digest and incorporate with what is happening in NY State without trying to fully understand the ultimate agenda of The Ag Chem Industrial Complex. I'm just trying to deal with my little part. And having a hard enough time with that.

I know you all will say that I am doing just fine and not to get down on myself, and I am not. But I know that there has to be someone better suited to this task than I. The only thing is, no one knows who that is. No one has stepped forward and no one has been pointed out. Were that person out there I would have gladly had them by my side and made sure they had opportunity to speak and be heard. 

Which I did do with some people who I thought would bring something to the table. Their perspective if nothing else.

I have enjoyed my experience. I feel privileged to have been recommended and asked to serve. This didn't start with me. Had I been asked if we needed to even do this I would have said "No." But that question never came up.

Follow the Label Laws and turn back Climate Change. Or don't. In ten thousand years it won't matter anyway. If that long.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> sorry but I feel like I'm typing uphill. IF THE CLUB AGREES TO ADD HIS ID TO THE LIST, HE DOES NOT GET EVERYONE'S EMAIL ADDRESS, THAT IS THE IDEA OF THE GROUP, IF HE INCLUDED, HE CAN SEND AN EMAIL TO THE GROUP, THE GROUP THEN FOWARDS THE EMAIL TO EVERYONE, NO NEED FOR ANYONE TO KNOW PEOPLES EMAIL ADDRESS.


Huh? Wha? Can you speak a little louder, I'm very hard of hearing. heh heh

Okay. Got it.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Huh? Wha? Can you speak a little louder, I'm very hard of hearing. heh heh
> 
> Okay. Got it.


now all I need is confirmation for acebird, got to go put the snow blower's and chains on, The county DOT was running down the road with the plow and wing plow down, I think they were trying to determine how many mail boxes they can get in the first pass this year:lpf:


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Mp3 is 'managed Polinator protection plan', and it is what the states have been tasked to come up with. PPP may well be something else entirely....I see no reference to it anywhere.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Mark, I went looking for Paul Cappy's job description to see if part of it is keeping beeks informed, best I can find he has no job description , but did find more information on the #of hives and beeks in NY.

http://www.agriculture.ny.gov/AD/release.asp?ReleaseID=2915



> Beekeeping clubs help our growing hobbyists make the most out of their hobby,” said Paul Cappy. “The growing number of new beekeepers can gain practical experience and new knowledge about beekeeping by working with experienced hands in 20 different clubs across the state.”
> In 2013, there were more than 55,500 apiaries with five or more colonies in New York that produced over 2.6 million pounds of honey. This is down from 2003, when there were 67,000 apiaries with five or more colonies producing more than 4.8 million pounds.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

In New York the language has always been, since the subject was first talked about and to the best of my knowledge, about the New York State Pollinator Protection Plan, NYS PPP. Not even NYSP3. Maybe MP3 is something I have not incorporated. But it doesn't appear in any of the e-mail communications if I remember correctly.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Hey Mark, right on the document Wildbranch linked to ...
http://www.agriculture.ny.gov/PI/Beekeeping_Club_Contacts.pdf


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What about it, Brian? Four to 6 clubs missing and my e-mail address is no longer valid.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I can't vouch for how up to date it is. Did it provide any new contacts? Just curious, how do you send out invitation to volunteer at the state fair booth? Are you missing those 6 clubs?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No, Brian. No new contacts. I already have a copy of that list. Hans does that. I don't know how. Now how would I know about those 6 clubs if I was missing them? No.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Well you could have a list of all the clubs but not the contacts. No?


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## NY Bee Wellness (Dec 21, 2013)

> No new contacts. I already have a copy of that list. Hans does that. I don't know how.


Hans emailed that he was using the NY Bee Wellness club list last summer at the Fair


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks, Pat. C u at the meeting?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Acebird said:


> Hey Mark, right on the document Wildbranch linked to ...
> http://www.agriculture.ny.gov/PI/Beekeeping_Club_Contacts.pdf


that was a test to see if anybody actually reads this stuff, congratulations:lpf:


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

The feds are serious about pollinator protection. $4 million serious.
http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/wps/portal/nrcs/detail/national/newsroom/releases/?cid=nrcseprd414821


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Has anyone heard about the distribution of funds?
Seems like something should have been announced by now. State budget is complete.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

clyderoad said:


> Has anyone heard about the distribution of funds?
> Seems like something should have been announced by now. State budget is complete.


I can't find any information on the NY gov. site, but rumor is
They plan to do a big press launch on Friday in Albany with the recommendations... there should be some information coming, maybe.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/go...ndations-new-york-state-pollinator-task-force


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

if you go here and pick the pollination protection plan it gives 42 pages of information, page 29 and appendix a are interesting.

http://search.usa.gov/search?affiliate=nysdec&query=pollination+protection+plan


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