# VHS QUEEN BEES



## SRatcliff (Mar 19, 2011)

VSH has been around for a long time now. If it alone was the solution, most colonies would be exhibiting a higher level of it by now, IMO.


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

Who has VHS queens that have failed in mite levels? Maybe I ought to just start a thread and take a poll..


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## beegineer (Jul 5, 2011)

Totally out of my league here knowing nothing of Africanized bee's but I've heard they have a habit of killing queezns that are installed in the process of trying to requeen them


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## Terry C (Sep 6, 2013)

SRatcliff said:


> VSH has been around for a long time now. If it alone was the solution, most colonies would be exhibiting a higher level of it by now, IMO.


 A lot depends who those VHS queens' offspring are mating with . If you're in an area with a lot of hives that are treated , your VHS traits are going to disappear quickly . If you're isolated (I am) in an area with very few or no other hives you can maybe - I've been cautioned about my optimism in this regard - expect your bees to mate with drones from your own yard and preserve those traits longer . Also , if you know that you live close to a TF breeder , and that the beekeepers nearest you have all bought his bees , IMO the odds for keeping those traits goes up . 
The coming summer will give me more insight into this , all 4 hives have descendant queens from my original TF queen , 3 daughters and one grand . Right now the grand is one of my two strongest hives ... we'll see what the mite situation is when it gets warmer .


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

frustrateddrone said:


> Who has VHS queens that have failed in mite levels? Maybe I ought to just start a thread and take a poll..


I've tried several different VHS breeders. All showed some improvement, none were going to survive without some treatments. So all things being equal, get VHS queens, but it's not a silver bullet.
I would just as soon grow my own from gentle, productive stock, as I'm going to end up treating them anyway.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

When I tried VSH queens, it seemed they failed to build up properly because they were too busy pulling brood apparently good with the bad. At least that was my perception and I steer clear of them. I think the allogrooming route is more promising. The advocates of VSH are more than entitled to their own opinion, I just am not convinced.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

If you read what Randy Oliver has said it takes a special mating of the Queen. He tells a story of a queen he had from Glen that never needed treatments a cross of VSH and Hygenic . So for a beekeeper to really get to the treatment free promise land it will take a very committed person to do all the work of testing and selection of the Bees. Where is Brother Adam when you need him.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

A lot of things are locational. VSH hasn't been too effective for me, but I'm still evaluating. I'm hoping my two II breeders overwinter and I can test more daughters this year w/o treatments to get a better idea of how to manage them. The daughters from last year I did not treat, but looking at them now, maybe I should have, but they did better than some of the other hopefuls that are empty boxes now.


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

> Michael Palmer suggested a problem that I could solve late fall with my Suspected high percentage of DNA Africanized bees. He told me split the hive and requeen. After researching VHS he's in fact on the list of queen bee VHS Strain. He never mentioned anything about it. Here it is the number 1 problem and discussion on the bee forum I am thinking is mites and treatment


What am I missing? Asked about a problem with DNA Africanized bees but upset because recommendation didn't included queens with mite control options? Would the answer have been deficient if it only included VSH and omitted POL-line and ankle biters?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

I just got an e-mail from one of our local VSH breeders. He wants $25 plus shipping. I have three queens descended from his stock and they're great. They show no signs yet of losing their VSH traits.

He tells me he picked up a Purdue ankle-biter last summer to add to the mix.

They are not treatment free ... I gave one hive a shot of OAV last weekend. But neither are they mite bombs. For somebody who just treats without testing, well, why bother. But for IPM, where you treat as needed, I prefer bees that don't need it much.


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

Eikel It's okay.........


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

I've had VHS genetics in my hives for awhile now and what I am finding is that F1 and F2 generations continue to have good mite control, but by F3, they are pretty useless and build up very poorly. VHS is no silver bullet for mite control but it certainly is a helpful tool IF you are a beekeeper and not just a beehaver. By that I mean you know what is going on in your hives and actually manage them.

JMO

Rusty


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## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

I second Rusty's comments. To continue to the f3 generation there has to be some VSH genes in the drones that the generations are open mated with. So the more folks that have them the better the results over time. It will take more than a few years to develop the population genetics. Same as picking your best queen as a breeder, the drones can make the cross better or worse. The more you can try to saturate the breeding areas with desirable drones the better your chances of reinforcing the desired trait.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

John Davis said:


> I second Rusty's comments. To continue to the f3 generation there has to be some VSH genes in the drones that the generations are open mated with. So the more folks that have them the better the results over time. It will take more than a few years to develop the population genetics. Same as picking your best queen as a breeder, the drones can make the cross better or worse. The more you can try to saturate the breeding areas with desirable drones the better your chances of reinforcing the desired trait.


Exactly why we're getting another VSH queen. This past year a local commercial outyard has moved away and we're pretty isolated.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

Like many have already said, VSH is not the answer by itself. For many it has not helped. About a third of my colonies are VSH, but I also have Russians, and local stock from swarms and cutouts. My virgin queens are mating with a variety of different lines. I think they do well because there are many traits present, not just VSH. It's more complex than just getting the so called "perfect" bee stock.


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## bryandilts (Apr 12, 2017)

frustrateddrone said:


> So I have researched these and wondering if we could in fact get more discussion on this to get bee keepers to get queens bred in bee yards.
> I just am baffled that people don't seek out VHS and recommend them when I did the research. Curious as to why it's not used by large scale queen bee breeders or is it? Commercial operations I would like to hear from you as to why you have or have not switched out to VHS queens.
> 
> Michael Palmer suggested a problem that I could solve late fall with my Suspected high percentage of DNA Africanized bees. He told me split the hive and requeen. After researching VHS he's in fact on the list of queen bee VHS Strain. He never mentioned anything about it. Here it is the number 1 problem and discussion on the bee forum I am thinking is mites and treatment. Here we have the top premiere bee keeper giving me advice, but for some reason doesn't suggest VHS re-queening. Is this ironic or am I just missing something? Not bashing Michael Palmer, just saying that he could give some direction as to guide to the solutions of mite control naturally. Most bee keepers I would hope knows who Michael Palmer is and what he represents. The leaders of the bee communities in my thoughts need to be talking a lot more on VHS Queens then then do with all these chemical strips and other treatments that are being used. Seems to me that you get the VHS Strain queen and your saving money and time in the short term.
> ...


I bought bees of the Mite Mauler and the Purdue Ankle Biters from Baldwin's Bee Biz. No treatment at all and 3 of 4 hives survived the winter. I expect the characteristics to breed out very quickly, so I will be requeening this fall or next spring.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

frustrateddrone said:


> So I have researched these and wondering if we could in fact get more discussion on this to get bee keepers to get queens bred in bee yards.
> I just am baffled that people don't seek out VHS and recommend them when I did the research. Curious as to why it's not used by large scale queen bee breeders or is it? Commercial operations I would like to hear from you as to why you have or have not switched out to VHS queens.


I have yet to order one and have it make the winter.
either mites get the hive or they do not know how to handle winter.

the queens bred in my yard, have a 50-50 chance, so far better than the "commercial" ones

feel free to send me a few, I'll give them a fair try and offer my advice after the first winter.
I am no longer interested in trying them myself.
of the last 16 queens I purchased, 2 made the first winter, these 2 with heavy fall treatment due to being over run with mites in late July.

you all can discuss it till the cows come home.
I am more of a see - do type, words do not mean as much as they once did.

who IYO is selling VHS queens that work as advertised?

GG


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## CliffS (May 12, 2021)

frustrateddrone said:


> Who has VHS queens that have failed in mite levels? Maybe I ought to just start a thread and take a poll..


Every VSH queen I've tried has or would have failed due to mites if I didnt treat. My area is really bad for mites, and VSH breeding so far hasnt been the only answer. VSH queens allow me to treat less often and with milder treatments, but 100% of my hives will fail if mites go unaddressed.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

CliffS said:


> ..........My area is really bad for mites.......
> 
> VSH queens allow me to treat less often and with milder treatments, but 100% of my hives will fail if mites go unaddressed.


Pretty much my exact situation too.

With minimal treatments, I see the VSH bees doing very well.
At the same time, with the same minimal treatments - the pollinator-grade bees are still surviving, but barely or so-so.

Thus, the VSH-grade bees make sense in heavy treatment-required situations - by minimizing the required treatments.


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