# How to put the queen in the hive.



## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

I have a very simple question. My queen got here today.
Could someone tell me exactly how to put her in the hive. It will be dark, of course.
It is a ten frame deep.
Thanks in advance.

26° this morning!!


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Does this hive already have a queen? Tell us more about what you are wanting to do.

Tom


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

Thanks for the quick reply. The hive is queenless and broodless. I think I goofed up a split earlier this year
(I was successful with another) and they were just going to live out their life and die I guess. I don't have but a few thousand bees in there now.
So, she won't have any competition for sure. I hate to borrow more bees or brood from another hive at this point because of the coming flow.
Thanks,


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

You can put the cage in the hive, make sure the cork/stopper is removed.

Are there as many bees as in a package? If the population is small you might want to add a frame of brood. 

Tom


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

Okay sure. There are less bees than a package would have. So I will need to add some brood if I can.
I have weakened my two strong hives by taking brood already though.
Thanks for your advice. I've never added just a queen before.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Assuming there is candy in the cage I would pull the cork on the candy end and put the cage with the screen down wedged between two frames. With a standard Benton three hole cage this often requires removing a frame temporarily. If you staple a piece of tin (you can cut a piece from an aluminum can) or cardboard you can set it up to not fall down in. Make sure they aren't long enough to go through and hit the queen...


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## Deepsouth (Feb 21, 2012)

Glad your queen got there.
I would put the cage in the hive in between the topbars of two frames with the cap still on the candy for a day or two. Then go back after a day or two and pull the cap off the candy end. 
This would help them except her before being released.
It also helps to remove the attendants from the cage so only the queen would be in the cage. But if you are uncomfortable doing this, it is not necessary just helps the acceptance a bit. But if you do this make sure you are in your truck in-case the queen gets out she wont fly away.


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

Thanks Deepsouth. Yes, she got here. I was worried because it was 26 this morning. LOL. She is in the kitchen now with a wood heater. 
Thanks Michael. I will locate it just like that with the screen down.
I appreciate all of your help.


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## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

this may be too late... you said it will be dark, so I am wondering if you mean you are going to do this at night... bees don't like being bothered at dark. if you must, wear some protection and smoke them. red light they apparently don't see -- they will fly to a normal flashlight and find you. they may land and crawl around on you, even riding back into your house.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You can place the cage inside between the 2 frames. I make a small wire hook to hang
the small cage so it would not fall off to the bottom. Don't do it at night because
they will need to get use to her scent anyway. So day time hiving her is o.k.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

If the hive has been queenless for too long, they may not accept her well. I would do it in daytime, I never open a hive at night. I would set the queen in her cage on top of the top bars and watch the hive's bees reaction to her. They will let you know if they are ready to accept her or not. Good luck.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

At one time I baby sit less than 1 frame of worker bees that was queenless thru out the winter.
Came early Spring they were eager to have a new queen. So I bought them a new laying queen just to see.
And they accepted her happily though not many workers was left. You can say they were dying to finally received a new queen. 
I was able to make 7 splits from that booming hive by July. 
Yes, definitely a reaction/acceptance queen test to see. If they are fanning and all over the queen to say 'here she is, our new
queen, finally. Then it is a good sign. But if they are biting and balling the cage then you have to wait a few more days to see
if they will accept her or not. This is the tricky part. Good luck!


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

This is all very good advice. I must confess that I couldn't tell if they were happy or balling the cage. 
We shall see. Even making mistakes seems to be fun with bees. It will etch the lesson into my memory.
I'm going to check them on Saturday and let everyone know. They were queenless for several weeks, so they may be happy.
They do like to crawl at night! LOL. No stings though.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Why would you do it in the dark?


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

jrose1970 said:


> Thanks for the quick reply. The hive is queenless and broodless. I think I goofed up a split earlier this year
> (I was successful with another) and they were just going to live out their life and die I guess. I don't have but a few thousand bees in there now.
> So, she won't have any competition for sure. I hate to borrow more bees or brood from another hive at this point because of the coming flow.
> Thanks,


Why is it queenless? Just few thousand bees. Sounds a bit worrying. Maybe it is queen- and broodless because the bees tried to make a new queen for themselves but for some reason they failed. There is a change that the hive has some sort of failed, small, unmated queen. 

The best would be to check this possibility. Put a frame of young larvae, wait 5 days and see if they make queencells. 
I would do a new nuc with 2-3 brood frames and one food frame for the new queen. 

I would never recommend to put a new queen into a mysterious case, a hive which is unnormal.


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

Hey Michael,
I was going to get home super late and had to leave super early the next morning. I was thinking that it was more important to 
get her installed than it was to wait for a time to do it in the daylight. Now I'm thinking it may have been a little hasty.
I wasn't sure how long she would last outside of a hive even in good temperatures.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

She can last for a week or more with a drop of water every day. But you do what you have to do. It's not important to do it in the daylight, it's just less stings...


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

Hi Michael, I am off tomorrow. That would have been much better. Hi Juhani, that is a possibility too. I think the brood and eggs may have been too far advanced that I used in the split. I will remember to look very close for a small queen in the future. Thanks for that. 
I am really learning a lot!


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> She can last for a week or more with a drop of water every day. But you do what you have to do. It's not important to do it in the daylight, it's just less stings...


Be carefull with the water, it can make the bees void and if they do, they die soon. Water is very seldom needed, and even then just tiny tiny drop. Often I don´t give them water at all, in room temperature they are all right for a week. 
(But every day caged is too much , of course)


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you put the cage in a box with workers and refresh the workers every week you can keep them caged for months.


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

That is great advice. So there is no need to rush the queen if we know these tricks.
I'll remember that. Then I won't have to install her at night. LOL.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> If you put the cage in a box with workers and refresh the workers every week you can keep them caged for months.


Why is it necessary to replace the workers each week? Do you put in new capped brood with attached bees or just put in a scoop of bees?


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I strongly recommend making up some Laidlaw queen introduction cages.

These are made up from 3/4" x 7/8" (19 mm x 22 mm) sticks of wood into a rectangle 6" x 8" x 7/8" (150 mm x 204 mm x 22 mm) outside dimension (that's 4 1/2" x 6 1/2" x 7/8" inside dimension). Cut two strips of sheet metal 11" x 1" (~280mm x 25 mm), 20 guage works well, but 18 and 24 will also work, if your staple gun goes through it. Bend them 90 degrees to fit the inside hole (my metric numbers are approximate - the 2 metal strips should be bent 90 degrees to fit the inside rectangle and the corners should touch, rendering a closed rectangle) . Staple or nail them onto the inside surface so that 3/8" (10 mm) metal hangs down below the wood. Cut some #8 hardware cloth 5 1/2" x 7 1/2" (14 mm x 19 mm) to cover the top of the rectangular hole, and staple it on. 

I tried making the metal strip one piece, but two pieces are much easier to get square, level and fitted to the inside. Either way, the metal should go all the way around the inside, and it should protrude down 3/8 of an inch (about 1 cm) below the bottom of the rectangle. 

You can staple a thin strip of wood over the frame when attaching the hardware cloth if your wish, more work, but makes it a little bit neater appearance.

I like this size because it fits easily onto a deep or a medium frame, and 28 of them stack neatly into my Miller-type hive top feeder for winter storage.

Take a frame of comb that is good and flat, mostly (~90%) empty cells, but some honey and pollen on it, brush all the bees off, place the new foreign queen onto the comb and cover her with the Laidlaw cage, pushing the metal into the comb and bottoming out on the wood.

There are no candy holes in a Laidlaw cage, the beekeeper does the releasing, not the bees. If the bees form a ball over the Laidlaw cage, they are attacking her because she has not yet been accepted. They will try to kill her, but the 7/8" (22 mm) depth will keep them from ripping off a wing or leg, or stinging her. The width of the wood plus metal strip prevents them from digging under the cage to kill her. If they dig under the wood, they get frustrated by the metal and give up.

After she starts laying some eggs, her pheromone level comes way up, the bees will stop forming an attack ball, and you will see them feeding her instead. Now you can release her, because she has been accepted. It often takes longer than the 2 or 3 days the candy lasts - it may take up to a week or longer. The Laidlaw cage gives her a chance to get started laying, and thus accepted.

I usually get 100% acceptance rates with these Laidlaw queen introduction cages. Mostly only poorly-mated, or damaged queens get rejected with Laidlaw cages.

There is now a queen intro frame in the catalogs that has a holder for a California queen cage or a 3-hole queen cage and screen-covered comb section, but that is a lot more work to build and a lot more bulk to store, and it is not easy to get the comb drawn out properly. I find the Laidlaw cage is still the most practical, and still gives the best results for introducing mated or I.I. queens.

The Laidlaw cage is NOT used to introduce virgin queens.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Using this Laidlaw queen intro cage, how long the queen has to stay inside before she can be
released or take the cage off the comb?


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Do not release a queen that is being attacked! Attacking bees form a ball over the queen in the cage. Give her a few more days. 

When there is no ball, and they are feeding her, release her. Not before this.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

kilocharlie said:


> Give her a few more days.


By a few more days, you mean when they all stopped balling her you mean?
You think this may take 1 or 2 weeks time or sooner before that?


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

It depends on the queen, and probably the weather, too. Some queens take longer than others to begin laying eggs. Dr. Harry Laidlaw let some go as long as a month, and it resulted in a good queen! She has to start laying, and she needs some pollen, or rather bee bread, and some honey. It always seems to help queen intro to feed the colony some thin (1:1) sugar water syrup. I give them a pollen patty, too.

If she's poorly mated, her pattern will be a bit spotty, and it will take longer. Usually, as soon as there are some fat grubs ready to be capped, they've stopped balling her and have accepted her.

Cool weather can delay things, too. It has to be warm for her to begin laying.

Either way, LOOK AND MAKE SURE THEY ARE NOT BALLING HER, AND THAT THEY HAVE ACCEPTED HER BEFORE RELEASING HER.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why is it necessary to replace the workers each week? Do you put in new capped brood with attached bees or just put in a scoop of bees? 

If the bees are confined they need to find a way to defecate. You can tell by the smell that they need to be repelaced... I'm talking about a box with bees and a queen. Cardboard, wood, plastic, doesn't matter as long as it can breath and there is some candy and a source for water (or periodic water provided). If you put them in a free flying nuc that is queenless you can keep them indefinitely and there is no need to replace any of them.


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

Hi everyone,
I just wanted to let you know that my queen has been accepted. I looked in on them Saturday morning, and she was out on the comb with all the bees. It looked a lot like adulation to me. LOL. I was pretty lucky. The way I did it was risky.
Thanks!


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Good enough, jrose! I'm happy for you and the girls. 

It would still be a good idea to go make up an appropriate number of Laidlaw cages for next time around. Queens are going for about $25 and up out here nowadays, so I always use a queen muff, and I almost always use Laidlaw cages. The exception is when I actually want them to raise cells from another hive. This only happens in an out yard when I don't have any Laidlaw cages on hand, or no fresh mated queens, but mostly when I want to change the genetics of a colony because I'm trying to eliminate a specific trait. In that case, I kill all the drones, all the drone cells, and remove the queen (she gets caged and banked) and loan them some brood comb with eggs from the desired colony. 

Staying a good number of mated queens ahead is a better strategy, as bees raising their own queen cells don't gather much honey nor pollen for a while, and their numbers go down before coming back up a month later. They often miss the important part of the main nectar flow, so just buying a mated, laying queen is far preferable to a "walk-away split" or a brood-loan re-queening scheme. You save several important weeks in the spring time.

It occurs to me that any beekeeper with more than, say, 4 colonies probably ought to make up a queen bank frame and some queen cages to fit in that queen bank. A Cloake board would not be a bad idea, either, as now you have a setup that can be quickly arranged for banking queens whenever you needed them.


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

Hey everyone,
Now she is laying eggs! That one went great. I have two other hives that have queen problems now. I am definitely going to learn more about that queen bank. I have 6 hives and it seems that one will be struggling for a queen at any given point.
I just wanted to let you all know how much I appreciate your advice.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Just one forewarning - banking queens is not natural - it is best not to do it for more than two months (I prefer much less). Put them into nucs with a frame's worth of bees from their own colony if possible as soon as you can. These are now Increaser Colonies. If you need to re-queen a colony, do a newspaper combine of an Increaser colony over the stronger queenless hive. This keeps the queens laying eggs and happy, while still available to re-queen any colony that needs it. You get the added benefit of more increasing colonies. 

But, it really does help to have a queen bank handy when you suddenly end up with too many queen cells and not enough nucs or mating boxes ready!


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

I see your point. I really want to be as natural as possible. The first step will probably be to buy about four of five nucs. 
I love to see a laying queen! I have one hive with about five brood frames. It would be great to get them in good shape for the big tulip poplar flow. I saw a post that the poplars are blooming in northwest Georgia about 130 miles south of us now. Well, one hive is definitely about to boom!
Thanks again!


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

BTW, a simple queen bank is just a somewhat wide frame with shelves on it to hold a bunch of queen cages. Combined with a Cloake board, you keep the strong queen bank colony's Mama Queen out and can make the upstairs bees queenless in less than 10 seconds. I'd leave them queenless for about 2 hours, then place the queen bank frame in above the Cloake board. 

The easiest queen cages to make are Alley cages - a square block of wood 2" x 2" x 7/8" with a 1 1/2" diameter hole drilled in the middle, covered with #8 hardware cloth. CAREFULLY drill a 7/16" diameter sideways release hole. It will need a cork to plug the release hole, and the same can be plugged with candy if you want a timed release (I don't trust candy release - Laidlaw cages are far better).

So, if making up 2" square Alley cages, make your shelves 2 1 /16" wide. I put 1/4" hardware cloth on one side so the cages don't fall out as easily, and a small lip on the front of the shelf. The spacing of the shelves needs to be such that you can get your fingers in to take out a cage. 

Other queen cage designs work, too, and you can customize the widths of the shelves. If you start a really large queen operation, you may try to really pack some queens in there, but better success is usually obtained by us small guys keeping the number of queens down a bit - say two shelves of up to 15 queens. I prefer to keep the queen bank population down to 30 queens, but a good strong colony can bank much more than that, especially for a short period, like a few days.

Hope this helps, good luck!


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

Thanks for the information. That is a lot to digest. I really do want to grow and have a queen bank. This year I'm going to learn more about nucs. Then I can borrow from them for my hives. Next year I will learn more about queens. I have a queen that is really laying the eggs. If I could breed off of her that would be great. I split that hive earlier this year and then borrowed a couple of frames later and she is still laying on two levels (supers). LOL.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Why would you want to wait another year to learn about queens?
You can do both at the same time because they are both related.
Do you really think it takes 2 seasons to learn them separately?


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

Well, it took me 11 years to get a four year degree. LOL.
I guess I'm a little intimidated by the queen thing. I do want to learn it.
They indeed are related. I need to read up on it and watch a few videos. 
I will still have lot of questions, but thanks for urging me to not wait.
I actually need two queens right now.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

kilocharlie said:


> BTW, a simple queen bank is just a somewhat wide frame with shelves on it to hold a bunch of queen cages. Combined with a Cloake board, you keep the strong queen bank colony's Mama Queen out and can make the upstairs bees queenless in less than 10 seconds. I'd leave them queenless for about 2 hours, then place the queen bank frame in above the Cloake board.
> 
> The easiest queen cages to make are Alley cages - a square block of wood 2" x 2" x 7/8" with a 1 1/2" diameter hole drilled in the middle, covered with #8 hardware cloth. CAREFULLY drill a 7/16" diameter sideways release hole. It will need a cork to plug the release hole, and the same can be plugged with candy if you want a timed release (I don't trust candy release - Laidlaw cages are far better).
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for posting this information.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

WBVC said:


> Thanks so much for posting this information.


Banking queens is not WISE, it is just for emergency situations. A queen should be in a (normal) hive as soon as possible(= in max a week).


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

Hi Juhani,
What would you say is the smallest population you could have in a nuc? Your post reads, "isolation mated queens". How does that work?
I'm only asking because I know very little about queen rearing. LOL.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

jrose1970 said:


> Hi Juhani,
> What would you say is the smallest population you could have in a nuc? Your post reads, "isolation mated queens". How does that work?
> I'm only asking because I know very little about queen rearing. LOL.


Apidea mating nuc has about 700 bees? Some recon that is the absolute minimum to take care of a queen. Some say it is not enough. When my queens have been laying for 2-3 weeks in Apidea mating hives, I transfer them into nucs. Nucs are made with one shallow box from broodnest. This whole box is transfered to new apiary. New queens are given immideately(Nicot transfer cages). Old queen stays in her old hive. 


Isolation mated queens, propably not the best way to put it... it means that I have inland mating station (actually two of them), which has about 10km bee-free zone around. So I can pretty sure say which drones my queens mate with. In addition my area is not very good for beekeeping so there are not many other beeks around that 10km zone... 

(With banking I meant the methods of keeping large numbers of queens in small boxes, with for instance 10-100 bees.)


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

Thanks!
That is great information. I sort of want to keep them in tiny nucs as well. It is good to live in an area like that. I'm pretty isolated as well. If anyone in 5 miles of me has bees, I do not know about them.
We live next to an unbroken forest about 20 miles deep. I would love it there were some old ferrel German black bees out there to mate to.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Juhani is correct. 700 bees is not enough. Nor is a 32-ounce cup full of bees as is standard practice in mini mating nucs. You get better results in 4- or 5-frame nucs with enough bees to cover the frames (usually about 3 or 4 of the aforementioned 32-ounce cups). Not that it is impossible - you just most probably get better %mated queens that stay in the nucs and grow into decent colonies that make it over winter.

Long-time queen rearing experts will differ in opinion, and they are skilled (and crewed up) to work much tighter with their bee resources than us beginners. Some can work a HUGE number of queens in a single month, which is all they may get up in the North. Just start out conservative, giving them enough bees, and learn how tight you can work later as you get good at it.


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

Okay thanks. I didn't like the really small ones either. How would you feel about a ten frame deep divided into four 2 frame deep nucs? I learned that from Mr. Bushes website. I built one the other day.
(I think that is pretty close to his description.) That would give me four backup queens for the small apiary. Of course then I could duplicate that as many times as I needed or wanted to.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

All my 10-frame boxes have 3 slots for hive partition boards. One partition in the middle slot is for 2 x 5-frame double nucs. 2 partitions in the outside slots are for 3 x 3-frame open mating nucs. Ya' gotta make up special bottom boards and tops to run doubles and trip's. I make up special, narrow inner covers for opening one at a time. Lots of woodwork fun!

Drilling cork holes in the sides for bee exit/entry are easier that setting up special slots in the bottoms.


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

Yes my woodworking is improving. LOL. I think I'll go with 3 x 3's. That way, like Mr. Bush said, I can keep feeding the broodcomb to other hives without depleting the mating nuc too much (at the same time keeping it small). I noticed on a lot of websites that they use the cork holes. 
Thanks for your advice!


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Just add a 3rd slot down the middle of the short ends of the boxes and your 3 x 3-frame can do duty as a 2 x 5-frame double-nuc as well. 

I LOVE this setup! Any box, any use: 1) 10-frame brood box; 2) 2 x 5-frame double nuc; 3) 3 x 3-frame mating nuc; 4) 3 + 7 frame breeder queen isolation unit for egg laying (uses a queen excluder partition); 5) 2 x 4-frame double nuc with two 1-gallon feeders; 6) insulating box for pail feeder top (if its a 9 11/16" = 24.6 cm deep).

The only drawbacks? - 1) Ya' gotta cut the slots, partitions, & narrow inner covers yourself; 2) You need a whole bunch of corks! 

Oh, and one more note - you can use canvas or burlap instead of special inner covers on 2 x 5-frame double nucs, but it doesn't work so good on 3 x 3-frame arrangement, so make the narrow inner covers if going with 3 x 3 triple mating nucs.


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

You're right! That is a neat setup. Right now I only have one colony in the left side of the 3 x 3 setup. I realize that I will have a spill over problem when the cover is off if I don't build the 3 small inner covers. That is next on my list. LOL. Thanks!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If they are spilling over when the cover is off then you need more room for their expansion otherwise
they will swarm on you. Keep on adding supers for honey gathering on a flow. Or you have to take
some broods out to exchange with empty frames to minimize the crowding.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Yeah, we usually move them into the next size setup - 2 x 5-frame, or full 10-frame box if the nectar flow is really cranking - before it really becomes a big problem. I move them into the "larger apartment" as soon as they occupy 2 of the 3 frames in the 3 x 3 arrangement, but that is when there is brood present and it has been expanding a bit (ie. the queen is laying a solid pattern). 3-frame nucs do take a while to start, and I mostly only use that arrangement when it is good and warm in the spring, and I *KNOW* I will be available to manage them.

You can also put only 2 colonies on opposite sides of the 2 partitions and switch the arrangement to a 2 x 4 frame w/feeders or a 2 x 5- frame with a little partition magic.

This year, there is a bit of a reprieve. The winter was warm and dry, the flowers all bloomed early and short, and the nectar flow in my area is already winding down from it's peak. That gave me an extra week to leave them in the 3-frame setup. Now the nights are warm, so they went straight into the 10-frame boxes from the 3 x 3's.

Any way you set up, DO feed your mating nucs (1:1 syrup this time of year), even if the weather is great and the nectar flow is in full swing. Small colonies w/ new queens do better with a little help from Mr. or Mrs. Beekeeper.

The nice thing about 3 x 3's is that you can mate a lot of queens with little additional equipment and no mini-mating nuc quarter-combs to draw ahead of queen season. 

You also get decent results with the very same bunch of bees you started with (though you CAN newspaper combine more bees or add a comb of brood when you move up to the next size box), and an extra 3 to 7 days to deal with bees expanding into a somewhat larger chamber, and far less tendency to swarm (abscond?) out of the nuc than with mini mating nucs.

Like I said, I love this setup.:banana:


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## jrose1970 (Apr 1, 2014)

:applause:Great advice!
Decisions, decisions. I think I will move this colony on into a 10 frame with an entrance reducer to protect them from robbing. Like you said, it is plenty warm now. That will save my 3 x 3 setup for a mating nuc for more experimentation. LOL. How much time do we have left in season for queen rearing? Here is my thought. Start with a fairly strong hive with about 6 frames of brood. Take the existing queen and one frame of brood, one frame of honey and an empty frame and put her in one of the 3 x 3's. Then I have five frames of brood with plenty of eggs left in the hive and plenty of nurse bees. When they throw emergency cells, I could wait until the queen cells are capped. Then put each individual queen cell in it's own mating nuc.
Would that work? It seems like it would create about 6 colonies with enough time to prepare for winter.


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