# My Ant Proof Hive Stand Actually Works!



## Charlie B

After losing two nucs to ants I came up with a solution for those darn Argentine ants that raid hives here in California. I made "T's" with 1" galvanized pipe. At the bottom of the T joint, I slipped on 2" white PVC end caps after drilling holes in them. I hung them upside down on the pipe and filled them with high temp bearing grease that doesn't run in the heat. The rain won't be a factor because they're upside down under hives. 

I pounded the pipe legs into the ground 2 feet deep. I secured the 2x6 PT frame to the T joints with plumbing strap. The cross members are resting on the T joints to better handle hive weight. NO MORE ANT PROBLEMS! (Sorry about the finger in the first pic)


----------



## jip

Nice! I like the idea.


----------



## KQ6AR

Looks good. How many hives can it hold?


----------



## Charlie B

I usually have 5 (8 frames) but you could do 6. I think 4 or 5 10 frames would fit nicely.


----------



## cerezha

nice!


----------



## pamelissalan

Hi Charlie, We are going to build this but I can't seem to find the actual directions. I thought I had seen a step by step article, but "someone" lost it! Can you tell me how wide the stand is? Thanx so much! Pam

I pounded the pipe legs into the ground 2 feet deep. I secured the 2x6 PT frame to the T joints with plumbing strap. The cross members are resting on the T joints to better handle hive weight. NO MORE ANT PROBLEMS! (Sorry about the finger in the first pic)
View attachment 2271
View attachment 2272
View attachment 2273
View attachment 2274
View attachment 2275
View attachment 2276
[/QUOTE]


----------



## Charlie B

Pam,

The total width of the stand is 15". I cut the cross members that rest on the T-joints 12" long. When you account for the front and rear joist, (each being 1 1/2" thick) screwed to the cross members, you get a total width of 15".

You can make the stand wider but then you'll have to use longer cross member pipe.

Here's a parts list:

1" threaded galvanized pipe

(2) pieces 36" long (legs)
(4) pieces 8" to 10" long (cross members)
(2) T-joints
(4) end caps for cross members

(2) white 2" PVC end caps

Lumber (Can be pressure treated or any type of wood painted)

(2) 2x6x8 
(4) 2x6x1 (cross members)

Hardware

3" deck screws
1" galvanized screws (to screw plumbing strap to crossmembers)
Metal plumbing strap

High temperature brake grease.

Drill a 1 1/4" hole dead center of the 2" PVC end caps. Thread those on upside down on one end of the legs. Pound the other end into the ground and assemble the parts as shown in the photographs. Use a putty knife to fill in the grease into the upside down PVC cups.


----------



## mmmooretx

Darn you CharlieB! I like it and now have to build one for 5 10 frame hives. My dimensions will be slightly different due to my Country Rubes SBBs. But realistically very clever and it will take care of my red ant problem here in Houston.


----------



## Charlie B

Mmmooretx,

I got so frustrated with these little black Argentine ants that are relentless with nucs and starter hives.
Everytime I do splits into nucs here they come. I've tried everything and nothing worked except this.

I just built my third stand for my yard in Saratoga. It's better to use 1 1/2" pipe for more than 5 hives on one stand. A little more stable.

Good luck!


----------



## minz

I thought I had beat my ants into submission (bait stations) but now that is cooler I see I have sugar ants all over and going into my nucs in force. I wonder if I could have just put that grease on my hive stand blocks?


----------



## BeeGhost

Very cool Charlie! I'm with you, those AA's suck! Strong hives, no problem, small hives just get taken over by them. I'm going to steal your idea for nuc stands in the spring. Now if only the winter weather would get here to put the yellow jackets into hibernation, seen the girls fending off a few yesterday and I killed probably a dozen or so with the hive tool while inspecting!


----------



## Charlie B

minz said:


> I wonder if I could have just put that grease on my hive stand blocks?


You could but debrie will collect eventually and the ants will walk right over it. The upside down cups keep rain and debrie out only requiring a little touch up several times a year.


----------



## bbrowncods

NIce! I think I'll just try using the grease by coating the legs of my stand.


----------



## Charlie B

Thanks BG, yeah I stand and wait until there are about 20 yellow jackets balling a dead bee in front of the hives and then I torch them. It's very theraputic!


----------



## mmmooretx

Charlie B said:


> Mmmooretx,
> 
> I got so frustrated with these little black Argentine ants that are relentless with nucs and starter hives.
> Everytime I do splits into nucs here they come. I've tried everything and nothing worked except this.
> 
> I just built my third stand for my yard in Saratoga. It's better to use 1 1/2" pipe for more than 5 hives on one stand. A little more stable.
> 
> Good luck!


Thanks for the additional insight on the pipe size. Technically I am limited to 5 hives and now have 3, 2 more to be added in April. I would like to build one 10' long so I could do some NUCs due to swarms etc. I may build two shorter ones, all in my back yard, but am wrestling with the weather and temporary move of 3 double deep hives while doing the install of the pipe base/frame base. Time to measure and plan. Who knows we may get another warm day to execute/implement!
Thanks again for a great idea. :applause:


----------



## mmmooretx

Charlie B,
Just one question, sorry it is the Engineer in me. If you put the cross brace on top of the pipe T and the longitudinal runners sit on the pipe doesn't the rack rock on a high center?

Thanks for your time.


----------



## Charlie B

Wow, you ARE an engineer aren't you. I forgot to mention in my post that I dado a 1/4" slot in the bottom of the cross member to accomidate the top of the T-joint so it has direct contact, no rocking. It's hard to see but the dado pic is the third pic from the left.


----------



## mmmooretx

Great, now that makes a lot more sense to me. I would much rather be stable. ;-)


----------



## Charlie B

Just an update on my hive original stand. I checked it today. Grease is still soft and doing it's job since May with no touch ups. Many ants have tried but as you can see, the bodies are stuck forever in their grease tomb.


----------



## Charlie B

Here's a modified version that you can attach to an existing hive stand using 1x4 pine and wood dowels. I use this for lightweight nucs and starter hives. For regular hives you can replace the 1x4 pine with 2x6's on top.


----------



## mmmooretx

Charlie B,
Just a quick question as I am going out to buy materials today. Do you put end caps on the pipe ends you pound into the ground?


----------



## Charlie B

Tex,

No end cap on the ground end of the legs. You can either cut the threads off at angles with a grinder to sharpen the end that goes into the ground, (easier to pound in) or just pound in as it is. Quick tip, screw on an end cap at the other end and pound on it so you don't damage the threads you'll need to screw on the cross T's.

You can also dig a hole and concrete the legs in much like a fence post. This adds much more stability if you plan on having more than a couple of hives on your stand.

If you already have a basic hive stand you can also do a modified addition (post#20) that's less expensive but works just as well.

Good luck!


----------



## chimneysweep

Charlie B,

Nice description, I like your setup. 
I have tried something similar and I have one thing to add that could be useful, especially with the galvanized pipe that you have. As you said, the grease needs touch up once in a while. If you are like me and don't do that until the ants have made a good path, they may even cross over fresh grease (possibly because the Vaseline I use might not be as good as bearing grease). If that happens, you can use a blowtorch to heat the pipe and destroy the chemical trail that marks the path. Once that is done, they won't know to climb the pipe and won't be testing the grease anymore.

Here is a link to a thread that shows a picture of my setup.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?248517-Do-it-yourself-hive-scale
I haven't filled the caps with grease though, I have just coated the inside.


----------



## mmmooretx

I built two on Sunday. One is installed/completed and the second only needs to put on the "T" posts, grease cups, and top wood assembly on top. I just ran out of light so my hives, 3, are sitting on the ground and I will put them on the stand as soon as it warms up enough to break them down and move. I think our temperatures will be back up on Thursday.
Thanks again Charlie B!


----------



## Charlie B

You're very welcome Tex. You will enjoy not having to buy cinnamon, DE, Amdro or all the other stuff that's recommended which doesn't work. You can feed and grow your nucs in peace!


----------



## Charlie B

Here's my stand I built at my Saratoga yard. The Argentine ants were impossible to keep out of my hives until now.


----------



## mmmooretx

Very nice Charlie B! By the way while this variety of nematode does not work on ants it seems to have knocked down my SHB population. I still see a few but much less.
http://www.bugsforgrowers.com/products/heterorhabditis-indica


----------



## Charlie B

mmmooretx said:


> while this variety of nematode does not work on ants it seems to have knocked down my SHB population. I still see a few but much less.
> http://www.bugsforgrowers.com/products/heterorhabditis-indica


How do you apply them?


----------



## mmmooretx

Basically you put their package in a watering can, stir it up, and water the area around your hive just before dark. This allows them to get in to moist dirt without drying out. I think you need to do this once a year as winter tends to kill off the nematodes.


----------



## Charlie B

I had never heard of this but it's a great idea. I'm starting to see SHB in several of my hives so I'm going to try it. Thanks!


----------



## Oldtimer

Hi Charlie, Hey Thanks, what a great idea! 

Argentine ants are a new invader to my country and have shown up at one of my mating yards after someone dumped a load of rocks nearby. Unlike the other ant species that are a nuisance but don't actually harm the bees, the argentine ants actually attack them and can throw a small nuc into chaos.

I've been so worried about spreading them through my whole outfit that I haven't taken any equipment out of this yard and it's a pain. Now, i'm in a slow and painful process of moving the bees, one frame at a time, into "clean" equipment, and from there they go to a holding yard where I can watch them for a time to make sure no ants came with them, and eventually they will go elsewhere, I'll be abandoning the argentine ant site.

The best device I've seen so far has been with legs sitting in bowls of water, but that's obviously not practicle larger scale, so your grease idea is awesome.

The spread of argentine ants in my country has been researched and is an interesting read. They are mainly spread by people. They fight running battles with other ants, and sometimes the other ants are able to roll them back from previously held territory. So wether they'll take over the whole country is not certain. But in any case, I feel a whole lot better now that I've seen your grease trap idea, I'll use it if I have to go into argentine ant territory at some future time.


----------



## Charlie B

Oldtimer,

I'm glad to help. It's extremely frustrating to lose nucs to Argentine ants. I'm working on another design that's less expensive that I'll post soon.


----------



## bodosom

Have you seen many bees in the grease? We use water but the bees love to drink it so we're always losing a few to drowning.


----------



## Charlie B

Bodosom,

The grease smell seems to repell the bees, so far, not one bee fatality unlike using tanglefoot.


----------



## Charlie B

Here's another less expensive version using wood dowels. You can use any type of wood but I chose to use pressure treated and painted the top railings.


----------



## Beezly

Thanks Charlie for the great idea! I have lost 3 weaker hives this year to these ants. I have tried everything including high temp bearing grease, but not in the caps. It does degrade when it is not covered and they come back with a vengeance. I will commence building these stands and look forward to not having this issue again!
mike


----------



## Guest

Is it possible to get most of this pre assembled?


----------



## Charlie B

insane,

All of the materials used are common dimensional lumber sizes you can get at any Home Depot or Lowes including the white PVC end caps. I used 3" deck screws to fasten it all together.


----------



## Charlie B

Beezly,

You're very welcome. You're right, grease and tanglefoot degrade rapidly when you just smear it on hive stand legs. It also collects debris that forms bridges for the ants to march across. I chose the upside down cups to protect the grease from rain and debris. The white cups deflect heat so the grease doesn't run in hot weather. Enjoy your ant free beekeeping! :thumbsup:


----------



## Guest

Ok. I was looking for a couple short cuts.


----------



## Goat Man

I checked the prices at Lowes yesterday to build this stand. Using black pipe it cost $53.00 and using galvanized pipe cost approx. $62.00. Would PVC be just as strong? I know it would be a lot cheaper. I,m very fugal..;o) Thanks


----------



## mmmooretx

I built two of them and with 3 full double deeps it does rock slightly so I do not think you will get enough strength, especially on the cross pieces. 3 hives with double deeps and 3 med. supers would be pushing 800-1000 lbs (~70 per deep and 50 per super). I would not recommend this.


----------



## Charlie B

Goat Man said:


> Would PVC be just as strong? I know it would be a lot cheaper. I,m very fugal..;o) Thanks


PVC will not support the load like Tex says. You could build the wood dowel version out of scrap wood which is less expensive and works just as well.


----------



## Lazer128

Thanks to everyone that contributed to this thread. Getting my first bees this spring and now I know how to build my stands and be ant proof from the get-go! This has saved me a ton of research. Thanks!


----------



## Charlie B

Here's the wood dowel version hard at work in December. (The girls are going after Eucalyptus).


----------



## Goat Man

Okay Charlie, I made 4 dowel rod stands. Now I am looking for the grease. Will any grease due? It looks like the grease is white in your pics. You said, hi temp grease? What did you use and where did you get it, please?


----------



## Charlie B

Here ya go GM, Master Pro high temp disc brake and bearing grease. It keeps it's consistency in hot or cold weather. I like to rest the hives over my grease cups to protect them from excessive temperatures and rain.


----------



## Goat Man

Thanks Charlie, you rock.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Charlie B said:


> _President_, San Francisco Beekeepers Association


Hmmm, seems like Charlie got a promotion!  No more _vice_? :lookout:


----------



## Charlie B

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Hmmm, seems like Charlie got a promotion!  No more _vice_? :lookout:


Nobody else wanted to do it!


----------



## Gypsi

Very cool Charlie. I will have to modify my stand later. for now I used Ant Block under my pond liner. Knocked out 2 fire ant hives, bees can't get to the block.


----------



## Charlie B

You Texan's have huge ants there! How many hives do you have now? Is that tree colony still alive and kicking?


----------



## Gypsi

The most vicious ants we have are small fire ants, they'll eat bees, larva and beekeepers too. I poisoned em with Amdro antblock, but under pondliner on hive area perimeter to keep bees out of it. Worked.

5 hives. The bee tree bunch were too hot, moved them to a 10-frame at the back of the lot, and I finally caught and killed the queen (cordovan colored) about august, I took out all the queen cells and replaced with vsh eggs and larva, decided they'd failed at queen making, bought them an italian queen, who I found on the front step a week later when their queen from a hidden cell hatched and threw her out. She didn't live long. In other words, I got a LOT of experience.

2 VSH hives from nucs, 1 VSH hive from the queen I bought for the hot hive when I couldn't find their queen, 1 VSH hive from the hot hive's requeen (my weakest right now) and 1 cutout hive that I never requeened because they have done quite well. I know where there are 2 cutouts sitting, have rebaited the empty beetree. Will put out some more bait hives but mainly around here. The ones I had at a distance didn't do so well for whatever reason. Probably I put them out too early last year and the LGO was gone by swarm time.


----------



## Charlie B

Nice Gypsi, sounds like you're on your way to a nice honey harvest. I hope you don't have another dry spell again this coming summer. Keep those entrances reduced to combat the robbers!


----------



## Gypsi

Oh Charlie, it's going to be dry, but thanks for your good wishes. 

But with 5 hives and as much planting as I'm doing for them, I stand a chance at a small honey harvest. All entrances reduced. And I feed inside the hive now, no more Boardman Feeders. Half a bottle of HBH left over from 2011 - is it good for anything?


----------



## Charlie B

Here's a Bay Area Beekeeper who liked my design and is building a stand to accommodate a large number of hives.


----------



## Goat Man

Charlie
I built two of the modified stands so far. 4 feet between the wooden dowl rods were too far for heavy hives. The 1x4 sagged in the middle. The next one's I build I will place them 3 foot apart and use 2x4's for the top plate. I have high hopes for these stands as I will have more nucs and hives to put on them. I battled ants all last summer. Big one's, little ones, and some in between.. The cost ended up beeing about $55.00 each for 8 footers.


----------



## Charlie B

GM,

I should have explained that part better. The 1x4 section was for nucs only, sorta like a nursery area. For regular hives a 2x6 standing on edge is ideal.


----------



## Holiday

Charlie - We have the same problem here in Angels Camp - Is the grease what prevents the ants from moving upward? Did you just sink the pipes into the ground or are the anchored by cement or something....I'm concerned about pivoting and the nature of the soil; in this area, is red clay with rocks everywhere - We are running 8 frame supers -


----------



## Charlie B

Holiday,

I pounded mine two feet in but the soil is very stable with no rocks. It's better to anchor them in concrete though. If you have a rocky surface, you'll have a hard time pounding the pipe in straight so it's better to just dig holes and concrete in.

Yes, the grease is what keeps the ants from climbing up into the hives.


----------



## Holiday

Charlie B said:


> Holiday,
> 
> I pounded mine two feet in but the soil is very stable with no rocks. It's better to anchor them in concrete though. If you have a rocky surface, you'll have a hard time pounding the pipe in straight so it's better to just dig holes and concrete in.
> 
> Yes, the grease is what keeps the ants from climbing up into the hives.


Charley- Thanks my man - Great concept - Holiday


----------



## Charlie B

Charlie B said:


> Here's a Bay Area Beekeeper who liked my design and is building a stand to accommodate a large number of hives.
> View attachment 4114


Here's the stand complete with hives.


----------



## Goat Man

Charlie,
I checked my stand last week and found all the grease had slid out of the cups and it was laying on the ground. It wasn't the exact brand you had used. So I got some MasterPro grease from O'Rielly's Auto and repacked them. Hopefully the new grease will stay put..

Sam


----------



## Charlie B

GM,

I tried several different grease types and MasterPro does not run.


----------



## Goat Man

$11.00 per pound here, I hope it works this time!

I have four built so far and am counting on them to get all my nucs through the pending ant attacks.
Thanks Charlie.


----------



## Goat Man

No ants yet!


----------



## Goat Man

A not so clear pic of one of my stands and 10 inches of snow yesterday..


----------



## Charlie B

That's a fine looking hive stand. You'll be ant free with that. Just check the grease every couple of months to clear any debris stuck on it so they can't use it as a bridge. Only takes a couple of minutes.


----------



## BeeDeane

Brilliant Charlie! So I'm going to tap you for suggestions for my persistent red ants (yes they must be mine since they have taken so many of my hives!!). I already have VERY sturdy stands cemented into the ground so your solution wouldnt work without me excavating,,, very costly!! Any suggestions? Something is forming in my head but not taking shape just yet.


----------



## pedrocr

BeeDeane said:


> Brilliant Charlie! So I'm going to tap you for suggestions for my persistent red ants (yes they must be mine since they have taken so many of my hives!!). I already have VERY sturdy stands cemented into the ground so your solution wouldnt work without me excavating,,, very costly!! Any suggestions? Something is forming in my head but not taking shape just yet.


A simpler solution for the same problem that a fellow beekeeper has come up with are some hive feet bases that you fill with some kind of oil so that the ants can't go through them. Sort of like building a pit around a castle. He uses 4 per hive stand on each of the feet. Here's a quick 3d sketchup of it:

http://imgur.com/D1qDZON

(the left is the bottom and the right is the top that fits reversed on the bottom)

He had them built in stainless steal, they're about 10x10cm, so should be a pretty sturdy base. I know that two other important bits of the construction are:

- When it's assembled the gap between top and bottom is small enough that a bee can't get through, in case they're atracted by the oil for some reason
- The top (on the right here) is built with a wider part at the end so that when you set it over the bottom it can't slide around.

I can do a more precise 3d model if you want.


----------



## Charlie B

BeeDeane,

Send me a photo of your stand. I bet I can come up with something for you.


----------



## BeeDeane

I dont think I'm going to risk betting you. Its not exactly in my back yard so will do so as soon as... 
Thanks in advance!


----------



## BeeDeane

Thanks this is creative! The problem is *unless I dont get it fully) I cant get the foot of my stands in these bases as they are already firmly cemeted in the ground. Like I have promised Charlie I will send a picture. Maybe I can find one


----------



## BeeDeane

Hey I did find a picture! Here goes...
https://picasaweb.google.com/117977926053497900212/BeeDeaneHiveStands?authkey=Gv1sRgCJufkZyJ6NLm8QE# 
Hope you can open it, if not please let me know


----------



## Charlie B

BeeDeane,

Get some tuna or soup cans. Using tin snips, cut through half the can leaving an "L" cut at the bottom of the can in the shape of your stand legs. Open it up slightly like a claim shell and fit it through each leg of your stand near the top. Make sure the can is upside down. Close the can up using flex ties or large hose rings wrapped around it tight.

If there is a gap fill in with weather proof caulking or roof patch. Fill in with High Temp Bearing Grease just enough to cover the interior of the can. You don't have to fill in the entire can as it will cause it to be to heavy and may slip down the leg of the stand.

It may take several attempts to make the right cuts on the cans so eat plenty of tuna and have plenty of cans available!


----------



## BeeDeane

Sounds good! Two things.. 
Do you think plastic containers would work? I have zillons of those. 
Also, I'm wondering if I should use some glue to prevent the can from dropping down


----------



## Charlie B

Plastic would work as well. Instead of glue, you could try outdoor construction adhesive. 

I suggested using metal cans because you could tighten them up snug where the cut of the can and the legs come together with a big hose or plumbing clamp.


----------



## BeeDeane

Charlie B said:


> Plastic would work as well. Instead of glue, you could try outdoor construction adhesive.
> 
> I suggested using metal cans because you could tighten them up snug where the cut of the can and the legs come together with a big hose or plumbing clamp.


OK I understand! I will try this solutoin. Thanks again!


----------



## dux

Another variation on the theme (a GREAT idea!)...
I tried to do this for even less money...

Using a single length of 1" galvanized conduit EMT ($7) cut into 10" sections, a pressure treated 4x4 ($9) cut into 10" sections, and four NDS 4 in. PVC DWV Drain Caps ($2 ea.) 
I made these legs for my hive stand and sat them on four pieces of flat stone I already had. 
A 1-1/8" spade bit is the correct size for the holes in the 4x4, but you have to "router" it around a little to get the pipe to drive into the wood


----------



## BeeDeane

This seems really good, although I'm not as handy with tools as you clearly are, I will refer it to a more tool oriented friend. Thanks for the contribution. Oh just out of curiousity, arent your boxes a bit low (toads etc.)??


----------



## Charlie B

Nice Dux!


----------



## dux

I'm not sure that I have heard of toads being a significant pest problem in my area. In any case, my hives have upper entrances so that should mitigate most pest problems (i hope).


----------



## tristan36

Accidental post in wrong thread


----------



## David Trust

I love this solution. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Holiday

Charlie B said:


> Nice Dux!


Charlie - A few months ago you responded to a systam you built for ant-proofing hives - I failed to copy the building plans - Could you e them to me,
[email protected] - Also, when you bought the pipe did you cut some of the pieces to fit your schematic and if so; how did you re-thread the ends -
Did you get your materials at something like Home Depot or did you go to a plumbing specialist - Thanks, Chris Henderson 209 736-9914


----------



## kelly

Charlie B said:


> After losing two nucs to ants I came up with a solution for those darn Argentine ants that raid hives
> 
> thanks charlie. i read that this morning. I will pass it on to my husband, who spent an afternoon a few weeks back constructing the wooden base! might be prudent to start over!


----------



## Charlie B

Holiday said:


> Charlie - A few months ago you responded to a systam you built for ant-proofing hives - I failed to copy the building plans - Could you e them to me,
> [email protected] - Also, when you bought the pipe did you cut some of the pieces to fit your schematic and if so; how did you re-thread the ends -
> Did you get your materials at something like Home Depot or did you go to a plumbing specialist - Thanks, Chris Henderson 209 736-9914


Chris,

In post #7 on this thread I created a materials list. The list along with the photo's are the "tutorial" I posted for instructions. I bought everything at Home Depot already sized to fit. Home Depot however will cut and thread the pipe to different lengths if you like. 

I would recommend using 2" pipe and concrete for the hive stand legs if you're in a windy or rainy area for added strength.


----------



## joelee

Thanks for info Charlie B. finished my hive stand last night and today no ant! Used 10 foot 2 x 6 so i put 3 one inch posts. 


Thanks
Joe


----------



## Holiday

Charlie B said:


> Chris,
> 
> In post #7 on this thread I created a materials list. The list along with the photo's are the "tutorial" I posted for instructions. I bought everything at Home Depot already sized to fit. Home Depot however will cut and thread the pipe to different lengths if you like.
> 
> I would recommend using 2" pipe and concrete for the hive stand legs if you're in a windy or rainy area for added strength.


Thanks Charlie, I have a skunk problem as well so I will raise the ground posts to 2.5', skunks can't climb....I live in Angels Camp aprox 2+ hours from you,
God's critters have a lot of fun with our hives - Thanks again, Chris


----------



## Charlie B

joelee said:


> finished my hive stand last night and today no ant! Used 10 foot 2 x 6 so i put 3 one inch posts.
> Thanks
> Joe


That looks great!


----------



## Charlie B

Holiday said:


> Thanks Charlie, I have a skunk problem as well so I will raise the ground posts to 2.5', skunks can't climb....I live in Angels Camp aprox 2+ hours from you,
> God's critters have a lot of fun with our hives - Thanks again, Chris


Good thinking on the skunks.


----------



## Goat Man

:thumbsup: I must be doing something wrong. My grease keeps falling out. I think I put too much in the cups. I'm going to reduce the grease
when the bees are inactive for a few hours. NO ANTS THOUGH! Oh, and you have to keep the grass cut short under it or they just
use it as a bridge..dah! :applause:


----------



## Charlie B

Goat,

How big are your cups? I use 2" in diameter cups mounted on a 1" pipe. Not much room to slip down. If you have wider cups, you can use stiff mesh hardware cloth screen cut to the size of your cups and slipped half way into the cup to keep the grease from sagging.


----------



## Goat Man

3" cups. Good idea I will try it. Thanks


----------



## Holiday

Goat Man said:


> 3" cups. Good idea I will try it. Thanks


Goat - I use 3" cups on 1.5" pipe with the screen as Chrrlie suggested - I had to go to black pvc....pricey..7.50$, but well worth the grief and frustration of ants -
I also have skunks to deal with so I raised my pipe to 20" off the ground/ 2' cemented below - Holiday


----------



## kelly

We already had the hive stands build so we build a 'bridge' around the hives, screwed it to about 3/4" above bottom of wood legs. Used pvc cut lengthwise for sides, and elbows also cut lenghtwise to connect at corners. Used pvc glue and screws to adhere to legs and caulked around any possible escape routes! sprinkled cinnamon into the 'pvc trays' . the ants hate cinnamon so hoping this is a way to discourage them from climbing up into hive. day 1 and 2 look good I'll keep you all posted.


----------



## Alwayslearning

Here is my own adaptation for my stand. So far so good! Thanks for such a great idea!!


----------



## Holiday

kelly said:


> We already had the hive stands build so we build a 'bridge' around the hives, screwed it to about 3/4" above bottom of wood legs. Used pvc cut lengthwise for sides, and elbows also cut lenghtwise to connect at corners. Used pvc glue and screws to adhere to legs and caulked around any possible escape routes! sprinkled cinnamon into the 'pvc trays' . the ants hate cinnamon so hoping this is a way to discourage them from climbing up into hive. day 1 and 2 look good I'll keep you all posted.


Kelly - That sounds like a Fantastic Idea - The cinnamon!!!- I like the organic flow of the concept- Please keep me up to speed as that method would be a lot less messy - Thaks much -Holiday


----------



## joelee

Alwayslearning, 

Very cool adaptation, will try something like this with my next hive stand! Got a few carpenter ants made it across mine but not many. The smaller ants don't have a chance

Joe


----------



## Country

Ok so I don't know ya but I'm thinking you have just become my hero I have problems with ants also and this is a great idea many thanks


----------



## Holiday

Best idea yet - the upside down pvc is doable....this is bomb proof....you da man, Holiday


----------



## Charlie B

Here's the same hive stand from my post #45 last December. Grease is still holding strong with no touch-up needed.


----------



## Jim Given

Hey Guys.....no master Pro around here....any other suggestions? BTW, had to pay $24 for a small bottle of high temp stuff around here, and I mean small. Help appreciated.

Jim


----------



## efaure

Jim Given said:


> Hey Guys.....no master Pro around here....any other suggestions? BTW, had to pay $24 for a small bottle of high temp stuff around here, and I mean small. Help appreciated.
> 
> Jim


Did you check walmart? I bought a can of High-temp grease in the automotive section and it is great. Shoot, I want to say ~$7!?! It's their generic brand, the "equate" of automotive products... Blue/Black labeling... Hope this helps. I haven't had anyone make it across the puddles of grease yet...and I hope they will not! The stuff stands up to the heat too (as it should), no liquifying or pooling.


----------



## Charlie B

Master Pro has worked the best for me but I would think any high temp bearing/brake grease would work. The cost here is about $7 bucks a can. The high temp is important for summer months so it doesn't run down the legs of the hive stand.


----------



## Goat Man

June 24 and NO ANTS!
You da man CharlieB!!! :applause:


----------



## Jim Given

efaure said:


> Did you check walmart? I bought a can of High-temp grease in the automotive section and it is great. Shoot, I want to say ~$7!?! It's their generic brand, the "equate" of automotive products... Blue/Black labeling... Hope this helps. I haven't had anyone make it across the puddles of grease yet...and I hope they will not! The stuff stands up to the heat too (as it should), no liquifying or pooling.


Thank you will check!!!


----------



## mmmooretx

CharlieB,
The stand has problems in gumbo during rainy season ...

Sorry not one of the links in PhotoBucket works here and I have tried uploading from the computer twice but 4 gig file and no joy...


----------



## kelly

Hi all, and to Holiday, this method with the cinnamon and pvc worked well last spring. i used it again in early fall for feeding and didn't see any ants except for 2 that drowned. so they got in but didn't get out! our 1st season, fingers crossed for winter. We actually got 1/4 frame of honey since nothing was going on in top super so we removed it and salvaged the honey for us yummy!!


----------



## Charlie B

Tex,

What do you mean?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

mmmooretx said:


> CharlieB,
> The stand has problems in gumbo during rainy season ....


Here is a sad looking hive stand photo from _mmmooretx's _Photobucket album: 



(Michael, once you have the image on the screen at Photobucket, copy the link called "IMG". Then come to your Beesource message and paste the link _directly _in your message. No need to use the "Insert Image" button on the toolbar.)


Its probably a good thing that sinkhole is under the hive stand, and not the house foundation!


----------



## Charlie B

Oops, soggy bottom. That happen to me when my Mother-in-Law left the sprinkler on when she left for a two week vacation and one leg sunk. I had to re-sink the legs in concrete like a fence post after the ground dried.


----------



## Gypsi

wide cinderblock verticals on top of pond liner, horizontal pipes. Put antblock UNDER the pond liner, axle grease on the pipes, does ok.


----------



## Goat Man

I had the same thing happen to me in Missouri clay. In December the stand fell backward and dumped 4 hives.
We had 3 days of rain before this happened then very windy the day it fell over. The design is good to keep ants out though.
I set it back upright and restacked the hives and prayed I didn't kill the queen in the process.
It was 35 degrees and windy when I found them. After I set the stand back up I sandwiched it
between 4 Tposts until warmer weather. I plan to then wider the hole and concreting the pipes in.


----------



## Charlie B

After one of my legs sunk, I took the opportunity during a hive inspection to re-sink the pipe legs in concrete. Much more stable now. I would suggest everyone do that who has my design 
during your next hive inspection while you have the boxes apart.


----------



## Goat Man

As usual, good advice CharlieB.


----------



## Gypsi

how small does a pic have to be to upload?


----------



## Holiday

Gypsi said:


> how small does a pic have to be to upload?


I have no idea, try to upload and reduce as necessary -

Awhile back I asked Charlie B about ant proofing- I took what I found for me to be the path of least resistance. I went to Lowes and bought pressure treated wood, bought 4 orange ($3 each) 5 gallon buckets, made 4 legs from the wood; took the buckets placed each leg in a bucket and filled them 1/2 way with water-
Now I have hives that should I choose to change location are aptly constructed.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> how small does a pic have to be to upload?

If you want to use the Beesource image attachment feature, maximum image file size is 195 KB; 800 by 800 pixels. If you use a service that hosts images elsewhere and then link them here, file size doesn't matter, but you do risk Barry's ire if you post inline images (automatically displayed) that grossly exceed the approved pixel limits.


----------



## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Here is a sad looking hive stand photo from _mmmooretx's _Photobucket album:


That is what I was expecting. Another problem might be the 1 inch or even the 1 1/2 inch pipe snapping off at the threads of legs with just two legs and a wind load on the hives. It would be much better to use 4 legs where two were connected in a "U" shape. I think the "T" is an accident waiting to happen.


----------



## Charlie B

If you're in a high wind area, the wood version wood be a better choice although mine have been very steady when it gets windy.


----------



## Acebird

My concern is not high wind but cyclic wind where the hives rock back and forth creating a bending moment at the tee fitting. Because of the sharp vee groove of the thread form on the end of the pipe the metal tends to crack and slowly propagate all the way through. Maybe it will happen or maybe it never will. But it would be something I would worry about. If the pipe was 3" in diameter I would have no concern but 1 in or even 1 1/2 I think is light.


----------



## Phoebee

I saw what I'm guessing is Charlie's stand on YouTube. I was not enamored of the T arrangement either, but overall liked the idea a lot. I'm in the process of setting one up. I've got four posts as well, but arranged to support four corners using U-shaped pipe assemblies (4 posts, 2 18" cross-pieces, 4 elbows). About the same amount of pipe but it should be sturdier from the bending standpoint.

My plastic cups are slightly different, made from 4" to 2" reducers and 2" to 1" bushings. The bushings need to be hogged out a little with a half-round rasp to fit the iron pipe. I split the plastic fittings so they can be put on the iron pipe and held on with hose clamps. That way the cups can be removed for cleaning and re-greasing.


----------



## Gilligan

Phoebee said:


> I saw what I'm guessing is Charlie's stand on YouTube. I was not enamored of the T arrangement either, but overall liked the idea a lot. I'm in the process of setting one up. I've got four posts as well, but arranged to support four corners using U-shaped pipe assemblies (4 posts, 2 18" cross-pieces, 4 elbows). About the same amount of pipe but it should be sturdier from the bending standpoint.
> 
> My plastic cups are slightly different, made from 4" to 2" reducers and 2" to 1" bushings. The bushings need to be hogged out a little with a half-round rasp to fit the iron pipe. I split the plastic fittings so they can be put on the iron pipe and held on with hose clamps. That way the cups can be removed for cleaning and re-greasing.
> 
> View attachment 9943
> 
> 
> View attachment 9944


I like it, but let me ask you... Why the pipe thread sealer? :lookout:


----------



## Phoebee

Do you recall the SNL bit with the ... um ... retentive carpenter?

I have a pipe birdfeeder designed to discourage bears. It has suffered a lot of damage over the years, had pipe replaced with heavier, been extended, had pieces bent by falling limbs, etc. Consequently some of the joints have needed to come apart from time to time. The latest was last week to install a squirrel baffle. So I'm in the habit of using Teflon tape on threaded joints for this sort of tinkertoy project so the joints don't rust solid.

Not that it will help with these shapes imbedded in the ground. But maybe in 30 years I'll need to replace the legs.


----------



## Moonflower

I was told by an old timer to put ant traps between the inner & outer cover...again new..no experience. Has anyone tried this?


----------



## Gilligan

What about poison (dust style) near the hive? Bad idea I guess huh?

Haven't done it, but ants are taking up residence around my hives! :waiting:


----------



## Gilligan

Question about this stand design.

What do you think it would do in my region? I'm in south Louisiana... It's always moist down here. Driving a pipe 2' in wouldn't be too hard.


----------



## Charlie B

Gilligan,

You can sink the pipes into concrete the same as you would a fence post or you can build the wood version.


----------



## Acebird

Gilligan said:


> Driving a pipe 2' in wouldn't be too hard.


If it is easy then it wouldn't be stable.

The grease trap is made from PVC so why not keep it all PVC? You can make up 4 legs out of 3 in PVC put an end cap on one end that goes in the ground and a floor flange on the other. Screw the floor flange to a 2x6 between two legs. The grease trap can be made from a 3 to 4 reducer. Carve out the 3 in end so it will pass through the 3 in pipe. Your stringers can be 4x4 or 2x6.


----------



## Gilligan

I guess one reason I liked the pipe in the dirt method so much was that I could do the least amount of dirt prep work to get it level and do it while hives existed right along side of where I worked.


----------



## Charlie B

Acebird said:


> If it is easy then it wouldn't be stable.
> 
> The grease trap is made from PVC so why not keep it all PVC? You can make up 4 legs out of 3 in PVC put an end cap on one end that goes in the ground and a floor flange on the other. Screw the floor flange to a 2x6 between two legs. The grease trap can be made from a 3 to 4 reducer. Carve out the 3 in end so it will pass through the 3 in pipe. Your stringers can be 4x4 or 2x6.


There are probably a 100 ways to accomplish the same goal using an upside down grease trap.


----------



## Acebird

Gilligan said:


> I guess one reason I liked the pipe in the dirt method so much was that I could do the least amount of dirt prep work to get it level and do it while hives existed right along side of where I worked.


You can still do that but use the next size floor flange and pin it to the pipe at ground level or slightly below.


----------



## Gilligan

Acebird said:


> You can still do that but use the next size floor flange and pin it to the pipe at ground level or slightly below.


Like a collar with a set screw?


----------



## Acebird

Yeah, the collar will keep the pipe from sinking in the ground if it is up tight to the floor flange.


----------



## Gilligan

What sort of flange are we talking about, I thought those were threaded.


----------



## Acebird

They are so you have to get the next size up so it will just slip over the pipe then use a set screw collar to adjust the height or you could drill and tap the flange to lock it to the shaft if you have a tap.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> They are so you have to get the next size up so it will just slip over the pipe then use a set screw collar to adjust the height or you could drill and tap the flange to lock it to the shaft if you have a tap.


???? :scratch:

Floor flanges and pipe are threaded to NPT specifications. Unlike machine screw threads, NPT threads are _*tapered *_so the only location that it is possible to thread with NPT threads is at the END of the pipe or fitting.



By the time you find a _practical _solution for these issues, the $3-$4 bag of concrete suggested by _Charlie B _above will look like a cheap solution!


:gh:


----------



## Acebird

Gilligan if Rader has confused you with his bits of wisdom or lack of, PM me I will get you through the simple process.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Steel floor flanges, whether you attempt to "pin" them or not, are expensive. 

If you use 1 1/2" pipe, flanges are about $13 each and even flanges for 1/2" pipe are nearly $10 each:
http://www.lowes.com/Search=floor+f...Id=10051&N=0&newSearch=true&Ntt=floor+flange#!

Even when you are done horsing around with getting a flange installed, the area of the dirt that the flange covers is clearly inferior to a bag of concrete!

If your pipe is at risk of sinking into the ground, why pay _more _money to buy a flange when a $3-$4 bag of concrete is a better solution? :s



:gh:


----------



## Gilligan

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Steel floor flanges, whether you attempt to "pin" them or not, are expensive.
> 
> If you use 1 1/2" pipe, flanges are about $13 each and even flanges for 1/2" pipe are nearly $10 each:
> http://www.lowes.com/Search=floor+f...Id=10051&N=0&newSearch=true&Ntt=floor+flange#!
> 
> Even when you are done horsing around with getting a flange installed, the area of the dirt that the flange covers is clearly inferior to a bag of concrete!
> 
> If your pipe is at risk of sinking into the ground, why pay _more _money to buy a flange when a $3-$4 bag of concrete is a better solution? :s
> 
> 
> 
> :gh:


I don't have to dig, I don't have to dig next to the hive, and also easier to change up if needed or desired.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Of course, you need to make choices based on your local conditions, particularly soil conditions. 

Somehow, I suspect that adding a floor flange to the pipe legs of the hive stand shown in post #111 of this thread won't do much to solve the problem.


My hives sit on concrete blocks. And if I'm not mistaken, Ace's do also. 


If you wished to avoid digging, and still incorporate an ant block similar in concept to the one in the current thread, one option is to set out some concrete support blocks, then construct a variation of the stand shown in the thread linked below, incorporating grease cups.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?240405-Homemade-PVC-hive-stand

Personally, I'd try to make the stand as low as possible but still allow access to the grease cups.

A possible alternative to attempting to ant-proof the hive stand is to to just set the hives directly on the blocks, then set out ant bait around the hives. An inexpensive ant bait can be made from Borax (laundry aid) and sugar with enough water to make a paste. Put it in containers that ants can get into but bees cannot.
.


----------



## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Somehow, I suspect that adding a floor flange to the pipe legs of the hive stand shown in post #111 of this thread won't do much to solve the problem.


Sure they would. You could even drill a hole in a board or a patio block and have the floor flange rest on that. All the concrete does is increase the diameter of the pipe to create a footing. Unless you dig a hole deep enough to go below frost line the pipe will go up and down with the frost. If it is below the frost line it is a standard footing if it is above the frost line it is a floating footing. For beehives it doesn't matter. If the soil is of the same consistency the hives will rise and fall equally.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

OK, Ace, do I have to PM you to get a *simple *way to drill a pipe sized hole in concrete patio blocks? :scratch:

Or maybe you will just post it here?


----------



## Acebird

It isn't worth buying a drill. Just take two pavers or four would be better and nest them up next to the pipe in two layers. You are going to be smart enough to put the second layer of pavers 90 degrees to the first layer and then the floor flange rests on the top layer. If you do have a drill you could use a pressure treated 2x6. It will last a long time.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Or you could use a $3-$4 bag of concrete to serve the same function as the floor flange and all those patio blocks combined.  No drilling of the pipe for the flange "pin" needed either.

You don't even *have *to dig a hole for the concrete around the post. A simple form made out of 2x4's sitting on the ground will serve to retain the concrete until its set.


----------



## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> You don't even *have *to dig a hole for the concrete around the post. A simple form made out of 2x4's sitting on the ground will serve to retain the concrete until its set.


If you don't pin the pipe to the concrete the pipe will shrink in winter and it will be like the concrete isn't even there. Up here a fencing contractor will drill a 10" dia hole in the ground over 3 ft deep. The entire hole is filled with concrete and the pipe is set above the bottom of the hole. Now that is for a fence that has almost no vertical load.

This may be even an easier idea. People buy exercise equipment and before it gets used 10 times it finds its way to self storage. People who run self storage facilities have to throw this crap away because it is heavy and people end up leaving it behind. Seek one out and get some dumb bells which you can use as the flange and they already come with a set screw collar. Moving them around is not fun.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

So your solution to the problem of soft ground is to risk the stability of the entire hive stand (potentially supporting multiple hives) on single setscrew in a _dumbbell _collar?  :lpf:



Just for fun, here's that photo ....










:gh:


----------



## Phoebee

Dig ten inch diameter hole three feet deep, fill with concrete, and stick a pipe down in it, and what will happen? The pipe is trapped in a cup of concrete, water will collect in and around it, and the pipe will rust off. With a wooden post you get a post sitting in water ... even pressure treated will have a short life.

Dig the hole, put a stone or paver at the bottom, put the pipe or post against the paver. If you want to use concrete, put some gravel at the bottom of the hole so water drains out, then concrete above that. Don't put your pipe or pole into a concrete cup.


----------



## Acebird

A galvanized pipe in a concrete footer will last at least 50 years.

Rader, no I don't suggest a hive stand on two pipe legs as I said in the beginning because of bending moments. Four legs would be bare minimum for me.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> will last at least 50 years.

Did you look that up in some kind of engineering book? :scratch:


Wouldn't service life depend on - at a minimum - soil conditions, size of the pipe, stress (flexing) applied, and the specific components of the concrete used? Is there fly ash in the concrete? 

Are we going to go back to that thread where you insisted that concrete wasn't affected by _freeze-thaw_ damage?



:gh:
.


----------



## Phoebee

Regarding 4 legs ... I finally have my variation of Charlie's ant traps installed (a defensive feature of Fort Bee).


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

That looks good to me. 
(But I don't see any floor flanges keeping those pipes from sinking.) :lookout:

Is the Fort Bee fence electrified?


The name of Fort Bee reminds me of this bee stand ... 









More in this thread: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?267627-Anti-bear-bee-fortress-nearly-completed/page3


----------



## Phoebee

Fort Bee will have a 3 joule fence charger, rated to get the attention of bears. In bee class a few weeks back one of the experts reported bear droppings about one bear length from their fence.

Behind the electric fence is grounded remesh. The first time I saw remesh used as fencing it was on a tiger cage. It is also sometimes used as fencing around garbage bins. Anything getting across the electric fence and the remesh is pretty much guaranteed to get a "negative reinforcement."

But now you have me thinking I should have elevated it. The fence posts would hold up a deck ... maybe I should add a second story?


----------



## Phoebee

I finally went back to YouTube and looked up the first time I saw the Charlie B hive stand. He confesses that it was not his idea, but he got it from a guy on BeeSource that had a really cool idea ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE9kr96bI9E

Here's my full post on Fort Bee.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?295904-Fort-Bee


----------



## Hogback Honey

Charlie B, thank you so much for sharing. I tested the area I put my hives on, about a week before I got my bees. I put a small chicken waterer filled with syrup on a raised platform, next afternoon I checked it, and it was COVERED with ants. So, got all the supplies I needed for my ant proof stand, I used 2x4's, wooden dowels and 2" end caps, and hi heat disc brake grease, works like a charm!


----------



## Charlie B

Hogback Honey said:


> Charlie B, thank you so much for sharing. I put a small chicken waterer filled with syrup on a raised platform, next afternoon I checked it, and it was COVERED with ants. So, got all the supplies I needed for my ant proof stand, I used 2x4's, wooden dowels and 2" end caps, and hi heat disc brake grease, works like a charm!


I'm glad to share. I took bits and pieces from other designs to come up with something that works against these dreaded Argentine Ants. The wood design is less expensive but a little more work to build. My pipe stands are still standing well with little maintenance.


----------



## Phoebee

Since I was building Fort Bee I had rented a one-man gas auger with an 8" diameter bit. I was drilling holes up to 3 ft deep. Now I'm spoiled. Lots of fist-sized rocks up there would complicate driving pipes into the ground, although I did manage to get two 8 ft ground rods in for the electric fence using a T-post driver (you have to drive in the last 2 ft with a sledge).

A T-post driver might successfully drive pipe into the ground, but if you bang on a threaded end you'd certainly destroy the threads. Might try a female coupling over the threads to bang against. A T-post driver is a common tool for agricultural fence posts, a heavy piece of pipe with a heavy plug in one end and a pair of handles. I find mine has many uses.


----------



## Acebird

Phoebee said:


> Since I was building Fort Bee I had rented a one-man gas auger with an 8" diameter bit.


I have a ford 601 and a 6 in. dia post hole digger. I have to be right on the clutch because it will stall the tractor. Typically I have to dig 10-12 inches at a time and pull it out with the 3 point. I dug one hole with a strapping boy and myself using a hand hold and I was fearing for my life. That's when I went to tractor supply and bought the post hole digger.


----------



## Phoebee

I've used a 2-man auger and that's a machine for throwing two men on their backsides simultaneously. The one man auger worked pretty well. The motor sits on the ground about 7 ft away and takes the torque. It has an automatic clutch that stops it if you hit a rock or root. Then you pull it out and use a digging bar to remove the obstacle. What they don't tell you is it gets a pound heavier every time you need to pull it from a hole, which really adds up after a dozen holes and three dozen rocks and roots.

I have a Ford 1300 that could mount an auger, but a neighbor with a similar-sized Iseki has an auger for his and he says it's just a machine for shearing shear pins. IIRC a 601 would eat my little 1300 alive, so I'm surprised you could stall it.

I dug the first hole with a digging bar and post hole shovel. In our rocks, I'm good for maybe two post holes a day that way.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

I suspect the one-man auger that _Phoebee _is referring may be similar to this ...










I used a similar one to drill holes for a pole/post barn I built. But once you get down to larger rocks or slate, its back to the 'ole digging bar.


----------



## Phoebee

The one I used is smaller, but probably takes more lifting. I like the one above, cantilevered off the wheels. Mine required the operator to lift the entire weight of the auger end.

http://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equipment/equipment.aspx?itemid=0700030&catid=s85


----------



## Acebird

Phoebee said:


> What they don't tell you is it gets a pound heavier every time you need to pull it from a hole,...
> 
> I have a Ford 1300 that could mount an auger, but a neighbor with a similar-sized Iseki has an auger for his and he says it's just a machine for shearing shear pins. IIRC a 601 would eat my little 1300 alive, so I'm surprised you could stall it.
> 
> I dug the first hole with a digging bar and post hole shovel. In our rocks, I'm good for maybe two post holes a day that way.


That is the problem, pulling it from the hole once it screws itself past the rocks. I have had it where the 3 point wouldn't pull if from the ground and picked the front wheels off the ground. No reverse. -

Some people might rev up the engine and that will snap pins. Keep the engine on the low end and when the digging slows it down the governor will respond with more throttle. That gives you the same horse power capability but not all at once where you snap pins or worse.


----------



## Phoebee

Tractor wheelies ... never my favorite, especially on our uneven mountain terrain. But what I like even less is trying to pick up too much in the front end loader with too little air in the front tires. She does this alarming little "curtsey", lifting one or both rear wheels off the ground. I added a roll over protection system but I still don't care for it.

The rocks may come out. I found the roots to be worse. They hold better.


----------



## Acebird

Ah ha, roots! no problem. I built a root riper. And the deep roots I use my potato plow. Now stumps, that takes a different technique. Think Tornado ... it easiest with two tractors. Wrap two chains around the stump in the same direction. Each chain goes to a different tractor going in opposite directions. Trees weren't meant to take torque. You can do it with one tractor but having two is the ticket.


----------



## Phoebee

Sounds like fun but my wife does not like driving a stick ... can't get her on the tractor even if I could borrow a second. And the 1300 is a little thing, not enough weight for serious traction. It weighs about a ton with the loader, maybe a little more with the pie weights. And my particular tractor lacks a drawbar under the axel ... don't want to try that trick pulling above the axel unless you like being under a tractor. I see the bolt holes, but need to find a drawbar for it.

I've been told to cut the stumps high so you can push them over after they rot. I've got one right beside the hive fence, an 18" diameter oak that is cut high enough for a bear to climb on and jump into the apiary. It's going to be cut to the ground this weekend, and let the termites have the rest. That's the one whose roots have made this job difficult.

Ah, for the good old days. Go down to the hardware store and buy a little dynamite.


----------



## Acebird

Well the hard way is taking a pic axe and shovel and clearing each horizontal root and yanking one at a time. Hook the chain to the front of the tractor and pull backwards. Use little jerks. The force is like ten fold as opposed to just pulling. Persistence will get it out but it will take time.


----------



## Phoebee

Did a lot of that clearing the flat spot for the apiary. I left the stump but the roots on one side are mostly gone.

This is too much stump for too little tractor for this particular spot. If I really wanted it yanked out, I have a buddy with a D9 that would pull it out like a toothpick. But the Stihl will shave it off low enough that I won't care. In five years the roots will just be compost.


----------



## Charlie B

Here's the latest 10' version. I built three of these for a buddy of mine who needed help with Argentine ants constantly killing his nucs.


----------



## Phoebee

Nice and stable-looking! And portable, I gather.


----------



## Hogback Honey

I like that one even better. I did try my hand, awhile ago, and did make one of your ant stands. I was afraid it would be unstable with 3 - 2 deeps and one medium each, hives, but it's doing okay. I will reenforce it though with some cross members, and next stand I make will be more like the pic you just posted. Thanks much for sharing!


----------



## Gypsi

that is a beauty Charlie! where does the oil or water go?


----------



## Charlie B

Phoebee,

Yes, very light and portable.

Gypsi,

High temp brake grease goes in the inverted grease cups, (see post #20) located under the 2x6 top portion of the stand.


----------



## Gypsi

Very cool!


----------



## Charlie B

A closer look at an 8' stand.


----------



## Acebird

Charlie B said:


> A closer look at an 8' stand.
> View attachment 14692
> View attachment 14693


I am really wondering why you are wasting so much lumber in the lower portion of that stand.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Pay attention, Ace! :lpf:

_CharlieB _has hives on flat roofs .... probably best to maintain good relations with the building owner by spreading out the weight properly and not putting _divots _in the building roof. 

:ws:


----------



## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> by spreading out the weight properly and not putting _divots _in the building roof.


If this was the goal the 2x4's should be laying flat not on edge. Three 2x10's across the two column supports (short span) would increase the area of load and use less lumber. Pay attention Rader you might learn something.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> If this was the goal the 2x4's should be laying flat not on edge. Three 2x10's across the two column supports (short span) would increase the area of load and use less lumber. Pay attention Rader you might learn something.


Hopefully the _structural beam_ calculations that _engineer _Ace performed:s to arrive at the conclusion above were performed with a little more care and accuracy that Ace's _math _ in this earlier thread:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...eight&p=1147063&highlight=numbers#post1147063

I particularly enjoyed this post from the linked thread: 


Acebird said:


> I am not going to teach you third grade arithmetic Rader.


:gh:


----------



## scorpionmain

Charlie B said:


> A closer look at an 8' stand.
> View attachment 14692
> View attachment 14693


I like it.
If you dont mind, would you explain to me how the cups are attached to the 4x4s?


----------



## Charlie B

2x4x8' studs cost around $2.50 each. I use a total of 6 1/2 studs, 36" of a 4x4, 2' of wood dowel to make this stand. Total cost for wood is around $20.

You need a strong broad base to distribute the load on a roof top. This is the least expensive design while maximizing load distribution. You can use this on the ground by simply placing patio bricks under each 4x4 to carry the vertical load and to keep it from rotting.


----------



## Charlie B

scorpionmain said:


> I like it.
> If you dont mind, would you explain to me how the cups are attached to the 4x4s?


In post #35 on page two, I show how I drill a hole the size of the wood dowel several inches deep into the 4x4, squirt some caulking in the hole and tap the dowel in. I attach the upper rail portion with 3" deck screws.


----------



## odfrank

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Pay attention, Ace! :lpf:_CharlieB _has hives on flat roofs .... probably best to maintain good relations with the building owner by spreading out the weight properly and not putting _divots _in the building roof.


If you knew who owned that building you would know that Charlie has to be particularly careful. There is much more than a rooftop hanging in balance if he damages it. And then there is the another question....if Charlie is the building manager, why are there ants on the fourth floor rooftop? What ant problems have the tenants on the lower four floors had to endure along with the bees?


----------



## Acebird

Charlie B said:


> You need a strong broad base to distribute the load on a roof top. This is the least expensive design while maximizing load distribution.


Well I disagree. Three 2x10's 2 ft long would cost how much and they would increase the load distribution area. 2x8's might even net more load bearing area. And there is one other important thing about the 2x10's. If the pipe legs are not rigidly mounted to the 2x10's then they can self level to the roof imperfections which will make the load more evenly distributed. I am only making suggestions for others. What you have must work but you are doing more than you need to.


----------



## scorpionmain

Charlie B said:


> In post #35 on page two, I show how I drill a hole the size of the wood dowel several inches deep into the 4x4, squirt some caulking in the hole and tap the dowel in. I attach the upper rail portion with 3" deck screws.


Oh okay, thanks.


----------



## Acebird

Charlie B said:


> View attachment 3624


Interesting that this photo shows an extra structural member laying flat on the roof in the wrong direction I might add.


----------



## Charlie B

Ace,

The wrong direction? According to who? You? What is your problem? You just love to criticize everyone who has an idea because you can't come up with any on your own. I stopped listening to you way back when you posted your idiotic hurricane bucket idea. Start your own hive stand thread if you think you have a better idea. 

You have no idea of what you're talking about.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

As you can see, Charlie didn't provide a link to that hurricane thread, so it is incumbent upon me to correct that oversight. 

But the _bucket o'water_ is getting all the publicity & fame, and some of Ace's other ideas are getting jealous. So lets not forget some of those also ....


Acebird said:


> You can further barricade the hive from the wind with yard stuff like a wooden picnic table, large tree branches, piles of skids, sheets of plywood, bricks, rocks, stone to deflect the wind upward. Think of a jet blast deflector wall at the end of a runway. What is the speed of a jet blast, 300-mph or better?


 :lpf:

Don't worry, that quote was part of the same hurricane thread as the _bucket o'water_, so clicking the blue arrow in the quote box will still take you to that same thread.

:gh:


----------



## odfrank

I feel the readers should also admire Acebird's honey extractor with the fan motor in the bottom of the tank. 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?305501-A-banner-harvest


----------



## Acebird

Charlie B said:


> You have no idea of what you're talking about.


Actually I do. I am trying to offer constructive criticism for your benefit or others. I am sorry it upsets you. That was not my intention.


----------



## Beregondo

But of course he knows what he's saying.

Really.

In fact, no one else on the forum is as reliable as he is to do it, either.

And one of these days he'll start a thread just to praise and encourage folks for what they are doing right.

Now, I hope the server's up to the shock when it happens.


----------



## Hogback Honey

Just to let you know, Charlie B, I am VERY envious of your nice, flat, level roofs. And thanks again for your stand ideas. I need to get off my derrière and make a few more.


----------



## Paul Reyes

This is a great idea, Ive never seen such a setup, I'm sure it does a great job in preventing ants which are a nonsense to us beekeepers.


----------



## SouthTexasJohn

Ok I have 4 weeks to get this done.


----------



## mmmooretx

Charlie B.
Getting set up to retire in Greenbrier Arkansas so I am moving your great design up there, but will put the pipe in concrete this time as I am extending my system to hold 10 hives and do not like sinking hives....


----------



## Charlie B

mmmooretx said:


> Charlie B.
> Getting set up to retire in Greenbrier Arkansas so I am moving your great design up there, but will put the pipe in concrete this time as I am extending my system to hold 10 hives and do not like sinking hives....


Great. Mine have been in concrete for a while. Works perfectly. Enjoy your retirement and your bees!:thumbsup:


----------



## scorpionmain

Here is my version:


----------



## Acebird

scorpionmain said:


> Here is my version:


A bit tippy.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

_Scorpionmain_, I wonder if _Engineer Ace_ would would recommend/specify the addition of a 5 gallon _bucket 'o water_ to reduce what he sees as the ''tippiness' of your hive stand. :kn: 




... or perhaps some lawn furniture, pallets & tree branches piled up nearby will improve the situation ...


----------



## scorpionmain

Acebird said:


> A bit tippy.


I did go back and add 2 more 4x4's for more stability around the bottom boards, but it is set deep with concrete.
It ain't going to tip.


----------



## scorpionmain

Rader Sidetrack said:


> _Scorpionmain_, I wonder if _Engineer Ace_ would would recommend/specify the addition of a 5 gallon _bucket 'o water_ to reduce what he sees as the ''tippiness' of your hive stand. :kn:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... or perhaps some lawn furniture, pallets & tree branches piled up nearby will improve the situation ...


lol
I am familiar with his engineering prowess.


----------



## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> _Scorpionmain_, I wonder if _Engineer Ace_ would would recommend/specify the addition of a 5 gallon _bucket 'o water_ to reduce what he sees as the ''tippiness' of your hive stand. :kn:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... or perhaps some lawn furniture, pallets & tree branches piled up nearby will improve the situation ...


Always got to be a smart A.
Scorpianmain, if you read through the thread on adding weight to a cover you will come to a post from Jim Lyon stating that a weight will make the hive tippy. And then he goes on to explain that he has witnessed hives tipping over during a wet season where the ground gets mushy and fails to support the hive. This is foundation failure not the fault of the weight. The weight can make it worse if the hive moves and it does in the wind. It will rock back and forth like an upside down pendulum because the base is weak. What you have in your hive stand is the same thing. If you add boxes to these hive and the bees fill them with honey the wind is going to rock these hives in unison when conditions are right and rip those bolts right out of the 2x4's (assuming the ratchet straps are securing the hive to the 2x4's).

The 2x4's should span the full width of the hive and be braced at the post and the post should be 3 ft min. in the ground. 4 feet would be much better. Using 4 post instead of two is another option that won't require going so deep.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Ace, how can you tell (from New York) how far _Scorpionmain_'s (in Kentucky) hive stand posts are sunk into the ground?? :scratch: :s




... that must be some high-powered _ESP _juju that you are using ... :lpf:


----------



## scorpionmain

Acebird said:


> Always got to be a smart A.
> Scorpianmain, if you read through the thread on adding weight to a cover you will come to a post from Jim Lyon stating that a weight will make the hive tippy. And then he goes on to explain that he has witnessed hives tipping over during a wet season where the ground gets mushy and fails to support the hive. This is foundation failure not the fault of the weight. The weight can make it worse if the hive moves and it does in the wind. It will rock back and forth like an upside down pendulum because the base is weak. What you have in your hive stand is the same thing. If you add boxes to these hive and the bees fill them with honey the wind is going to rock these hives in unison when conditions are right and rip those bolts right out of the 2x4's (assuming the ratchet straps are securing the hive to the 2x4's).
> 
> The 2x4's should span the full width of the hive and be braced at the post and the post should be 3 ft min. in the ground. 4 feet would be much better. Using 4 post instead of two is another option that won't require going so deep.


4x4's and they are set 4 foot into the ground with concrete.
The hives are secured by looping around 10" lag bolts.


----------



## Acebird

scorpionmain said:


> 4x4's and they are set 4 foot into the ground with concrete.
> The hives are secured by looping around 10" lag bolts.


Very good so the weak point is where the 2x4's are secured to the 4x4. Keep an eye on the hives when it is windy to see if they act like a pendulum. The 2x4's will twist like a torsion spring.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> The 2x4's will twist like a torsion spring.


:scratch: :s

2x4s??? What 2x4s?

Did you look at the photo, Ace? ... Read the text??? The entire stand is constructed with *4x4s*! 




... whats next? ... maybe the 4x4s are going snap now? :kn:


----------



## scorpionmain

Acebird said:


> Very good so the weak point is where the 2x4's are secured to the 4x4. Keep an eye on the hives when it is windy to see if they act like a pendulum. The 2x4's will twist like a torsion spring.


All 4x4 construction.
and I added two more 4x4's to the horizontal base to give the bottom boards more purchase (not pictured).
For a total of 20" for the bottom boards to sit on.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Nice job on that stand, _Scorpionmain_! :thumbsup::thumbsup:



... ... ... opcorn:


----------



## scorpionmain

Thanks
I think it will do.

As I was out there yesterday adding the additional base, I noticed an anthill had sprung up near a leg.
The ants were not able to make it past the grease under the pans & on the leg.
They were confined to the ground feeding on debris kicked out of the hives.
I was pretty happy to see that.


----------



## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> :scratch: :s
> 
> 2x4s??? What 2x4s?
> 
> Did you look at the photo, Ace? ... Read the text??? The entire stand is constructed with *4x4s*!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... whats next? ... maybe the 4x4s are going snap now? :kn:


They looked like 2x4's to me and it really doesn't matter what they are it is not a strength issue it is a flexing issue.


----------



## scorpionmain




----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Coming up next on this same channel, after a short break, will be Acebird quizzing _Scorpionmain _as to whether the bolts he used on that hive stand were '_Grade 8_' bolts. 

Don't miss the next exciting episode of "_A Bird's Eye View of the World_"! 


:gh:


----------



## rwurster

I would worry more about having your hives placed under a tree that drops cinder blocks instead of pine cones scorpionmain. Because that makes as much sense as the 'constructive criticism' I've seen in this thread. 

Nice stand btw :thumbsup:


----------



## Charlie B

I think it looks good. All you need in just a coat of grease under your grease cups so this will work. Yeah a little wider hive rest would be wise but you already addressed that.

Very good!:thumbsup:


----------



## Charlie B

rwurster said:


> I would worry more about having your hives placed under a tree that drops cinder blocks instead of pine cones scorpionmain. Because that makes as much sense as the 'constructive criticism' I've seen in this thread.
> 
> Nice stand btw :thumbsup:


:lpf:


----------



## Acebird

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Coming up next on this same channel, after a short break, will be Acebird quizzing _Scorpionmain _as to whether the bolts he used on that hive stand were '_Grade 8_' bolts.


The bolts are fine. The wood will split and the bolts will pull through.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Coming up next on this same channel, after a short break, will be Acebird quizzing _Scorpionmain _as to whether the concrete he used on the posts of that hive stand was rated 5,000 psi or better. 

Don't miss the next exciting episode of "_A Bird's Eye View of the World_"! :lpf:

:gh:


----------



## Charlie B

Acebird said:


> The bolts are fine. The wood will split and the bolts will pull through.


I doubt that will happen but you can eliminate that possibility by moving the hives over so one side of the hive is resting directly over the 4x4's.


----------



## Acebird

How does that eliminate the moment that the wind will place on the horizontal 4x4's?


----------



## scorpionmain

If there is enough wind to shear lag bolts sideways through 4x4's, I won't be worrying about beehives.
My house would be blown away and I would have more pressing matters to be concerned with.


----------



## Acebird

A 60-70 mph wind will not blow your house down unless it is a tar paper shack.


----------



## scorpionmain

Stop trolling.


----------



## DavidP

Thanks for the inspiration, have put some upside down PVC end caps on the legs of a rebar hive stand. Plan on using tanglefoot smeared inside.


----------



## Charlie B

Ace,

You really have a fixation about wind. I mean with the buckets and now this. Maybe you should see someone?:scratch:


----------



## Hogback Honey

Charlie B said:


> Here's a modified version that you can attach to an existing hive stand using 1x4 pine and wood dowels. I use this for lightweight nucs and starter hives. For regular hives you can replace the 1x4 pine with 2x6's on top.
> 
> View attachment 3411
> View attachment 3412
> View attachment 3413
> View attachment 3414
> 
> 
> View attachment 3415


I should have paid attention to, "lightweight nucs and starter hives". I feel like an idiot, made up one of these hive stands and it worked GREAT, for quite awhile, till we had 80 MPH winds one weekend. Thank goodness I had my hives strapped, they tipped back when the ant stand collapsed, but did not fall completely over. Now that my colonies are nice and robust, I am able to dispense with the ant stand. The formic ants dont mess with them now.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

See ... you should have had an Aqueous Hurricane Hive Holddown[SUP]®[/SUP]™ in place for those 80 mph winds! :lpf:




... as seen on _Beesource TV_ ...


----------



## Charlie B

DavidP said:


> Thanks for the inspiration, have put some upside down PVC end caps on the legs of a rebar hive stand. Plan on using tanglefoot smeared inside.


That will work! I started out using Tanglefoot and when it got to over 90 degrees, it melted down from the cups onto the ground. That's when I switch to the high temp bearing grease.


----------



## DavidP

Charlie B said:


> That will work! I started out using Tanglefoot and when it got to over 90 degrees, it melted down from the cups onto the ground. That's when I switch to the high temp bearing grease.


Could be a problem I guess. I've been using it on my hummingbird feeders ant guards which are similar but actually an old 35 mm film canister upside down, its worked well for that purpose and hasn't run too much but I'm only just smearing a small amount to the walls. I'll go to the grease if its a problem, thanks again for the PVC cap suggestion was wondering what to use.


----------



## D Coates

scorpionmain said:


> Stop trolling.


Where's a thumbs up, hug imoji when you need one?


----------



## SarahCurrie

Thank you so much for your idea. 

I tried to get the right materials here and couldn't do it. Well, the only length of 1" diameter pipe I could buy was 21'. I would be challenged to cut it and thread it.

So, I bought two galvanized metal hot water heater covers. I silicone glued canning lids over the holes. Then, I smeared the high temperature bearing grease all along the inside of the cover. I placed them upside down over cinder blocks. I set down lengths of 2 x 2 to provide ventilation.

I so hope that this will work. Thatching ants have given us tremendous grief. I will post end of summer and give an update. Thank you again for sharing your ideas.

Sarah
Castlegar, BC


----------



## Charlie B

Wow Sarah,

Great version of the original. You've obviously grasped the concept and using ingenuity, came up with those hot water heater covers that will work just as well. Just check every once in a while to remove debris the ants could use as a bridge. 

Nice:thumbsup:


----------



## soarwitheagles

Dear Charlie B,

Hi and thanks for your nice plans and ideas you have posted here....I wish I had discovered your post much sooner!

My wife and I read about the bee colonies dying out in the USA. We were hoping to obtain some bees somehow. Suddenly, a massive swarm showed up. After a little reading up, we shook them off into a bee hive box. They appeared to be doing fine, but then the ant problem. We have 4-5 types of ants here...

1. Large [nearly an inch long] black ants [really mean].
2. Red ants [I think they are called fire ants] that bite and hurt a lot when you stir up their nest.
3. Smaller black ants [about 3/8 inch long].
4. Argentine ants.

Anyway, the large black ants launched an attack on our hive that lasted for months. I tried everything I read in other forums and websites [water bucket for each hive stand leg, oil, etc], but nothing worked...those black ants finally succeeded in completely annihilating our entire first hive...and we were heart broken.

A couple of weeks ago, we decided to try again. We purchased a new queen and some new bees. I was hoping ants can't climb up-side-down-funnels. Learned real quick they can!

I noticed they finally gave up after I greased the black iron pipe with axle grease and placed cinnamon powder around the black iron pipe.

I like your idea much better.

Do you think it would work if I placed the high temp grease inside the underside of the funnel? And can you tell me where you purchased the grease?

Finally, today, for the first time, I noticed 3-4 inch groups of bees at the entrance of the hive [they never did that before]. I was gonna remove the reducer but now I think robbing bees might be visiting. How do I know if robbing bees are attacking? [I have placed some sugar water in a pan with floating wood as food for the bees inside the upper box, on top of the lower racks].

Well, I hope I haven't worn you out with all my rambling on. It is super important for me that this hive works. Having our one and only hive die last year was terribly painful for me because they sort of became my pets and I was hoping for a long friendship with them.

Please give me some pointers if you can. I am a total rookie. I grew up in Cupertino. Now I live near Galt, CA on a small ranch/farm, surrounded by large eucalyptus forests . Many ranchers and farmers have massive numbers of hives within just a few minutes drive of us. Does this change anything for us?

After reading your post, I ran outside and took some pics in the night of our hive. I am posting them for you to see. I will also do my best to take some pics in the day time.

Charlie B. have a wonderful day!

Soar


----------



## Charlie B

Soar,

First of all I would recommend you join the Sacramento Beekeepers Association. You'll learn much faster how to keep bees. From your photos it looks like you have black pipe holding up your hive somehow. I can't quite make out the whole thing.

Your hive stand doesn't look to be very stable. My thread has all the information you need to build a stand that's ant proof. You can get the grease at any O'Reilly's Auto Parts store. 

From your description of where you're located, you can put out swarm traps and catch as many hives as you care to have. Do a search on this site for bait hives or swarm traps. 

Good luck!


----------



## soarwitheagles

Charlie B said:


> Soar,
> 
> First of all I would recommend you join the Sacramento Beekeepers Association. You'll learn much faster how to keep bees. From your photos it looks like you have black pipe holding up your hive somehow. I can't quite make out the whole thing.
> 
> Your hive stand doesn't look to be very stable. My thread has all the information you need to build a stand that's ant proof. You can get the grease at any O'Reilly's Auto Parts store.
> 
> From your description of where you're located, you can put out swarm traps and catch as many hives as you care to have. Do a search on this site for bait hives or swarm traps.
> 
> Good luck!


Charlie,

Ok, I will join Sacramento Beekeepers Association. Thanks for the good advice. Yes, I realize my stand is unorthodox. I simply drilled [augered] deep holes in a Eucalyptus stump and stuck the black pipe in the holes. It is actually very sturdy, doesn't blow in the wind at all. But I will look at how to build a nice stand. How about those groups of bees beginning to group at the entrance? Is that normal or could they be robbers?

Thanks,

Soar


----------



## Charlie B

It's normal for bees to sometimes accumulate at the entrance. You can also find videos of robbing on this forum as well as on line. I imagine the nectar flow may be down in your area or even over so I would ask beekeepers there what's up.

Usually robbing occurs when there is no flow and they're after stores in other hives.


----------



## soarwitheagles

Thanks Charlie!

I joined the SABA [Sacramento Beekeeper's Association] yesterday and also sent them an email. Today I will send in my paper application with the check. I am hoping to find a seasoned mentor whom I can call at times. It sure would be nice if her/she could come over and look at our set up too.

I also purchased the Apivar strip online yesterday and hope to apply them this week.

Thanks again for excellent advice!

Soar


----------



## soarwitheagles

Charlie,

I just finished reading this entire thread. May I ask where did you purchase the wooden dowel?

Thanks!

Soar


----------



## Charlie B

I buy 1 3/8" wooden closet rods at Home Depot. Cheaper than buying dowell material in the lumber section. They have a closet rod that's coated in white pliable plastic that protects the wood from the weather.


----------



## soarwitheagles

Charlie B said:


> I buy 1 3/8" wooden closet rods at Home Depot. Cheaper than buying dowell material in the lumber section. They have a closet rod that's coated in white pliable plastic that protects the wood from the weather.


Thanks Charlie! I like your design and hope to duplicate it. Can you send me a materials list please?


----------



## soarwitheagles

Charlie B said:


> I buy 1 3/8" wooden closet rods at Home Depot. Cheaper than buying dowell material in the lumber section. They have a closet rod that's coated in white pliable plastic that protects the wood from the weather.


Charlie,

I purchased all the items. I have a hole saw, but was wondering how to remove the round piece of wood in the 4X4 post after drilling the 1 3/8" hole? Could you please shed some light on this portion of the project for me?

PS Do you have a step sheet or materials list for this awesome project?

Thanks!

PSS EDIT: I just read that some people are using the 1 1/4" spade bit...is this the only way to drill the dowel hole?


----------



## Charlie B

Soar,

Use a Forstner bit, not a hole saw. PM me your email address and I'll send you a power point on how to make one.


----------



## soarwitheagles

Charlie B said:


> Soar,
> 
> Use a Forstner bit, not a hole saw. PM me your email address and I'll send you a power point on how to make one.
> 
> View attachment 20160


Thank you Charlie!

I PM'd you!


----------



## soarwitheagles

*My Poor Man's version of the Charlie Ant Proof Beehive Stand*

Hi guys!

Ok, I had some old pipe laying around, some old wood obtained from the auction for dirt cheap, some bean can lids, some screws, nails, old primer and old paint. I did have to purchase the PVC plugs.

I modded a couple of things.

1. I was worried that a strong wind would blow the hives off of the PVC plugs. So I drilled 1.5" deep holes in the 3"x4" top rail pieces of wood and 3" holes in the 4"x6" foundation posts. Next, I inserted the pipe ends so the top rail piece of 3"x4" cannot move any direction, no matter how strong the wind becomes...oh, I also dropped in a 1/4 teaspoon of two part epoxy in each hole along with a 1" washer/electrical outlet slug hopefully to prevent the pipe from gouging a deeper hole in the wood.

2. Mounted the PVC plugs so no weight on em'. How? I drilled a 1/8" hole through the 1" steel pipe, inserted a nail, then, on top of the nail, I placed the lid of a bean can to support the 3" PVC plug.

3. I eliminated one extra piece of wood up top. I am not an engineer, but I was hoping those 3"x4" pieces are strong enough to hold the weight. *Can any engineer minded people here weigh in on this idea please?*

4. I cut the 4"x6" posts a little higher because I wanted the pipes to have a minimum of 3 inches penetration into the wood for greater strength.

5. I painted the PVC plugs after reading about UV degradation of PVC material here: http://www.jmeagle.com/pdfs/Technical Bulletins/TB10SunlightEffectsonPVC.pdf

6. I unintentionally made the top runners 15" width from side to side [mis-measurement on my part as I planned on 18" from side to side]. *Will this be enough distance for safe placement of the hives?*

7. I installed the PVC caps and top rails in a manner that they are removable. Now, if I ever need to repack the PVC caps with the high temp lube, I simply remove the top rails and the PVC caps and repack em'.

8. Finally, I used a fine sawdust/wood-glue combo from all the cuttings to make a type of wood glue filler for the holes that were drilled a tiny bit tooooo large. This resulted in rigid pipe fittings that will not budge at all.

With the exception of the PVC plugs, most of the material was only pennies [I picked up pallets of wood from the local auction for a fraction of Home Depot's cost].

So, there you have it. My Poor Man's version of the Charlie Ant Proof Beehive Stand! It is amazing what we can do with some old wood, old pipe, old paint and tin can lids. I think I will patent this, sell millions of them to professional beekeepers, and then retire peacefully in the Bahama's and live happily ever after.  Ok, just joking...

_I would like to give a very big thank you to Charlie, and all the people here that posted their cool ideas and pictures. Without you, I would never had been able to make a decent beehive stand that shuts the door on the ants! _ *THANK YOU TO EVERYONE HERE!!!*

Comments, advice, constructive criticisms, and encouragements welcomed!


----------



## Acebird

I would have liked you to go 3 inches deep on a 1 1/2 in pipe. Rule of thumb double the diameter.

In my location I would not drill into end grain because of rain. But I don't have ant problems so maybe in a dry area it is fine.


----------



## soarwitheagles

Thanks for the input Acebird! The pipe is 1" dia. so I suppose it will do the job. Yes, I hear you on the end grain...I was careful to completely seal in with the primer. Might it need a sheet metal cap too?


----------



## Acebird

You drilled a 1.5 in hole for a 1 in pipe? Was the od of the pipe 1.5?


----------



## soarwitheagles

Acebird said:


> You drilled a 1.5 in hole for a 1 in pipe? Was the od of the pipe 1.5?


Ace,

So sorry for the confusion...

I used a 5 ft. length of 1" dia. steel pipe I found that had rust on it. It had rust on the threads so I decided to cut it up into 9" pieces.

Next, I drilled 1 1/8" dia. holes in the 4"x6" at a depth of 3". 

Finally, I drilled 1 1/8" dia. holes in the 3"x4" top runners at a depth of approx. 2".

I had to drill 1 1/8" dia. holes because 1" was too tight, and the closest hole saw I had to this size was 1 1/8" dia.

So, will this be engineeringly sound?

:scratch:


----------



## Phoebee

Acebird said:


> You drilled a 1.5 in hole for a 1 in pipe? Was the od of the pipe 1.5?


The listed diameter of 1" trade size Schedule 40 pipe is the 1.049" inside diameter plus twice the 0.133" wall thickness, which is 1.315 inches. You should be able to clear it with a 1 3/8 hole, but 1 1/2" allows for a couple of beers. If fitting it into a larger pipe, it won't go into a 1 1/4" inside diameter, but will fit inside a 1 1/2".


----------



## soarwitheagles

So sorry Phoebee,

I am not a plumber or an expert on steel pipe.

The approx. OD of the rusty steel pipe I used is 1 1/16". I simply drilled 1 1/8" holes.

Hope this clears things up.


----------



## soarwitheagles

*My Poor Man's version of the Charlie Ant Proof Beehive Stand*

Final pic before moving it to the bee location...and it is grape harvest time here...








BTW, is it ok if I move the actual beehive 2-3 feet, from the tree stump to this new stand?


----------



## Phoebee

*Re: My Poor Man's version of the Charlie Ant Proof Beehive Stand*

The bees will hate it. The foragers will want to go back to the stump. Probably figure it out in a day or two.


----------



## soarwitheagles

*Re: My Poor Man's version of the Charlie Ant Proof Beehive Stand*

Can someone here tell me how much you filled the PVC caps with the High Temp Lube? Do ya load them full?


----------



## Charlie B

*Re: My Poor Man's version of the Charlie Ant Proof Beehive Stand*

Fill them completely. Your caps are larger than you need and the grease may gradually run down the pipe. That's the reason I use small caps to keep the grease in. You may have to put some screen in your caps to keep the grease in.


----------



## soarwitheagles

*Re: My Poor Man's version of the Charlie Ant Proof Beehive Stand*

Thanks Charlie! Will do.


----------



## Acebird

soarwitheagles said:


> Next, I drilled 1 1/8" dia. holes in the 4"x6" at a depth of 3".



It should work. By now you must know that drilling a deep hole with a hole saw is a PITA.


----------



## Phoebee

Acebird said:


> It should work. By now you must know that drilling a deep hole with a hole saw is a PITA.


The more I do woodworking, the more Forstner bits I own. I have hole saws but use them only when I don't have an alternative, which is less and less with time.

The trend started when we built a log home.


----------



## Acebird

Well a hole saw is meant for thin material because there is no way to clear the chips once the tooth fills up.


----------



## Phoebee

Oh, there's a way, but it requires a hammer, a chisel, a couple of other odd tools to pry stubborn chips with, and a colorful vocabulary. If it sounds tedious, you are underestimating the tedium, especially on a 6" thick log wall. You develop a keen appreciation for Forstner bits, and the lovely clean hole they make.

Not to mention, the chips from a Forstner bit are wonderful hamster bedding and fire starting tinder.


----------



## Phoebee

Deleted double post


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Phoebee said:


> Oh, there's a way, but it requires a hammer, a chisel, a couple of other odd tools to pry stubborn chips with, and a colorful vocabulary.


My hole saw set has a relatively large threaded hole that attaches the changeable cutting bits to the arbor with the small center drill. To get stubborn cut-out wood waste part out of the hole saw bit, I unscrew the arbor, then screw in a large bolt that matches the threads of the saw bit housing/arbor. Since the bolt body is larger than the center drill hole, screwing in the bolt easily forces the waste wood out of the hole saw. No chisel or cussing needed.  The case for the hole saw set even had an empty space that I could stash the bolt. 

On my hole saw set, the bolt required was metric. and I took a bit to the store so I could match an appropriate bolt.


----------



## odfrank

What problems with ants are you folks having? I have kept bees for 45 years and have ants all over my apiary but only one minor problem with them. They raid the sugar in queen cages.


----------



## Phoebee

odfrank said:


> What problems with ants are you folks having? I have kept bees for 45 years and have ants all over my apiary but only one minor problem with them. They raid the sugar in queen cages.


The original poster, Charlie B., said he had a problem with Argentine ants destroying nucs (I gather this is an invasive ant in California). We have some big black ones in West Virginia that I've seen carry off grubs, that also have a taste for sugar. They are our primary corpse-scavengers in front of the hives ... saw one attempt to carry off a live bumblebee last weekend. My wife hates these, so rather than risk her ire, and with too much time on our hands while waiting for our first nucs, I built my version of Charlie's stand. May not have been needed, but I have no regrets.

There are at least 12,000 species of ants, some of which are highly effective predators. Depends on what you have locally.


----------



## soarwitheagles

Rader Sidetrack said:


> My hole saw set has a relatively large threaded hole that attaches the changeable cutting bits to the arbor with the small center drill. To get stubborn cut-out wood waste part out of the hole saw bit, I unscrew the arbor, then screw in a large bolt that matches the threads of the saw bit housing/arbor. Since the bolt body is larger than the center drill hole, screwing in the bolt easily forces the waste wood out of the hole saw. No chisel or cussing needed.  The case for the hole saw set even had an empty space that I could stash the bolt.
> 
> On my hole saw set, the bolt required was metric. and I took a bit to the store so I could match an appropriate bolt.


Thanks for the great idea! I never thought of that, and now I will take the set to my local hardware store and look for the bolts!



Acebird said:


> It should work. By now you must know that drilling a deep hole with a hole saw is a PITA.


Ace, you know, for me this was a lot of trial and error.

I only had one of the Forstner bits. It was a 1 inch bit. I wanted to use a 1 3/8 Forstner bit for the dowel method but wasn't able to do so. So here is what I had to do:

Start with a 1 1/8 inch hole saw. Drill down until the hole saw bottomed out [1 5/8 inch].
Next, use a 1" spade bit and/or the 1" Forstner bit to get down to the bottom of the hole from the hole saw.
Finally, repeat steps one and two until I reached exactly 3 inch depth in the 4x6's.

Tedious? Yes. Did it get the job done? Yes. I had to make do with what I had. Those Forstner bits are expensive and I am on a tight budget.


----------



## soarwitheagles

odfrank said:


> What problems with ants are you folks having? I have kept bees for 45 years and have ants all over my apiary but only one minor problem with them. They raid the sugar in queen cages.


Gosh Frank,

You must have special guardian angels protecting your hives...lucky duck you!

Here in Central Valley, last year, my first hive had a heck of a time with ants...

At first we thought it was fascinating as we watched them battle 4 specific types of ants. It was an all out war, especially at night!

Fire red ants, super large black ants, medium size black ants, and of course, the world famous Argentine ants.

Sad part of the story is, the ants finally won. They managed to kill off the entire hive. I am sure there may have been other factors involved such as the mites and perhaps even some fungus, but the ants terribly weakened the hive by eating many bees and their honey on a daily basis.

Here is what I did:

I aggressively searched acre after acre of our property, finding large numbers of massive ant colonies. I think some of these colonies burrowed 6+ feet down. I did my homework and chose to use Talstar and/or Termidor as our weapons of choice. I poisoned every colony I could find, then carefully sealed each entrance with clay [Talstar and/or Termidor are terribly deadly to bees].

BUT, this year, after purchasing a new hive and queen, the large black ants and the red ants still continued to viciously attack our one and only hive. Charlie's Ant Proof Hive Stand has been the only solution for us that has worked. No ants appear to be able to break across the High Temp Lube. It is incredibly effective!

Thank you again Charlie for making all of this possible!


----------



## Charlie B

Soar,

Don't pay attention to Ollie. He gets really jealous if I come up with something he hasn't thought of. His only claim to fame is that he came up with these goofy hive handles he screws onto his hive boxes that you really don't need.


----------



## soarwitheagles

Charlie B said:


> Soar,
> 
> Don't pay attention to Ollie. He gets really jealous if I come up with something he hasn't thought of. His only claim to fame is that he came up with these goofy hive handles he screws onto his hive boxes that you really don't need.


LOL! Ok Charlie! And I can't wait to see his goofy hive handles!


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

I don't see anything goofy about Ollie's _cleat_ handles. I even adopted them for my own hive boxes.  Here is a related thread:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?278480-handles-on-the-boxes

and a photo from that thread ...


----------



## Gypsi

I mainly need ant proofing, actually I have some, I got some sticky stuff for painting on trees and painted it on strips of paper on my pipe stand. which was modeled on Charlie b's but not the same.


----------



## Charlie B

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I don't see anything goofy about Ollie's _cleat_ handles. I even adopted them for my own hive boxes.  Here is a related thread:
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?278480-handles-on-the-boxes
> 
> and a photo from that thread ...


Mine look much more professional


----------



## odfrank

Charlie B said:


> Mine look much more professional


The trouble with yours is that no factory made telescoping or migratory cover will fit. This forces you to only be able to use your own home made covers.

Below in post 265 you say "goofy hive handles he screws onto his hive boxes that you really don't need", but then you show almost the same thing that you use.


----------



## Charlie B

I screwed those cleats on so I could lean them back to check for swarm cells. They also look very nice!


----------



## soarwitheagles

Here is the final version of our Charlie B inspired Ant Proof Beehive Stand in action!

Thanks again to Charlie B and all here at Beesource for helping us find a working and effective solution to the ant problem!

Since installing the Ant Proof Beehive Stand not even one ant has been able to access the hives...wow, I never realize just how effective these stands would be.

Yeah team!


----------



## Charlie B

Very nice soar!


----------



## soarwitheagles

Charlie B said:


> Very nice soar!


Thank you Charlie B, and we recently picked up a lot of metal dirt cheap at the auction, so now we can build several more stands without paying the exorbitant fees for the metal piping. I found a pallet full of tire irons for pennies, including those 4 star tire irons. I am thinking about cutting them up and making the metal rods for the beehive stand...have you any thoughts on this? I think they may be stronger than the 3/4" steel plumbers pipe, but I am not certain...

Thank you!


----------



## Charlie B

I've gone to wooden closet rod dowels. Very strong and very cheap.


----------



## soarwitheagles

Charlie B said:


> I've gone to wooden closet rod dowels. Very strong and very cheap.


Yes, I purchased one of those plastic coated rod dowels. But I do not have the 1 1/4" Forstner bit. Please share with me how to manufacture one of these Forstner bits.

Thank you!


----------



## Charlie B

soarwitheagles said:


> Yes, I purchased one of those plastic coated rod dowels. But I do not have the 1 1/4" Forstner bit. Please share with me how to manufacture one of these Forstner bits.
> 
> Thank you!











Just buy one at Home Depot


----------



## soarwitheagles

Charlie B said:


> View attachment 21338
> 
> 
> Just buy one at Home Depot


LOL!

So sorry, but that is way beyond our present budget! *We have already spent over $1000* on our two hives, tools, medicines, vaporizer, extra boxes, paint, glue, nails, bee suites, etc.

Come on, isn't there a less expensive way to make one? Remember, we are on a super tight budget and my shoes squeak when I walk! Cheap, cheap!

BTW, what diameter Forstner bit are you using for the dowels?

I just found a Ryobi set of 8 Forstner bits for $19.97.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ryobi-Forstner-Bit-Set-8-Piece-A9FS8R1/202078676


----------



## Charlie B

I found the 1 3/8" plastic coated dowel at HD for about $6.00. Pretty good considering it was 8' long. You'll need a 1 3/8" bit. You'll be swimming in cash once you sell your honey so c'mon, spend a little!


----------



## soarwitheagles

Charlie B said:


> I found the 1 3/8" plastic coated dowel at HD for about $6.00. Pretty good considering it was 8' long. You'll need a 1 3/8" bit. You'll be swimming in cash once you sell your honey so c'mon, spend a little!


Thanks for the info Charlie! Ok, I will spurge on that Ryobi set of 8 Forstner bits for $19.97. Will post pics after I complete the next stand.

Have a good one!


----------



## sammy

well done. great to see those ant bodies there and know they didn't make it into the hive.


----------



## IAmTheWaterbug

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Steel floor flanges, whether you attempt to "pin" them or not, are expensive.
> 
> If you use 1 1/2" pipe, flanges are about $13 each and even flanges for 1/2" pipe are nearly $10 each:
> http://www.lowes.com/Search=floor+f...Id=10051&N=0&newSearch=true&Ntt=floor+flange#!


The stand my first beek mentor gave me is on four 1/2" x 10" galvanized pipe nipples with galvanized floor flanges on the underside:
















I have a layer of Tanglefoot on the legs to keep the ants off. I have to refresh it a couple times a year. I might try the PVC collar/grease option.

I wanted to build another one of these, and I was similarly appalled at the price of the pipe flanges. Even the 1/2" ones are $6.84/each.

Searching around the internet I found Menards, who sell the floor flanges for $3.78/each. The pipe nipples were $2.47/each. You have to pay for shipping, but it still saves money vs. Home Depot or Lowes, especially if you're building more than one.

I like this design because I can move it around, and I used bolts and nuts so I can even disassemble it completely.


----------



## Cyan

I realize that some may not share the same opinion as I, but as an environmentalist I must say: wheel bearing grease? Really???? :scratch:

Find and use a more environmentally friendly option like Crisco or vegetable oil, please. It's not perfect but it's somewhat better for the soil, critters, and plants. And if you are growing crops or have a water well near your hives; don't complain when you start growing additional body parts or tumors. Just saying.


----------



## IAmTheWaterbug

Cyan said:


> Find and use a more environmentally friendly option like Crisco or vegetable oil, please. It's not perfect but it's somewhat better for the soil, critters, and plants. And if you are growing crops or have a water well near your hives; don't complain when you start growing additional body parts or tumors. Just saying.


If Crisco works, then I'm all for it. But does it work? I've never tried it.

Tanglefoot seems pretty benign, to my amateur eye. "Natural gum resins, castor oil, carnauba wax."


----------



## Charlie B

The high temp bearing grease never runs out of the cup. What's the environmental disaster? Even in extreme heat, if by chance it did run down the pipe or dowel legs, I wouldn't think that it would be a problem.


----------



## soarwitheagles

Charlie B said:


> The high temp bearing grease never runs out of the cup. What's the environmental disaster? Even in extreme heat, if by chance it did run down the pipe or dowel legs, I wouldn't think that it would be a problem.


Charlie,

I am so happy to report that even after nearly an entire year of using your incredibly designed ant-proof beehive stand, not one ant has made it to the hives!!!

Wow! Doesn't get much better than that!:applause:

Also, here in central valley, we had 110+ temps last summer, and not one drop of the super high temp lube leaked or dropped from the inverted PVC cap ends. So that should satisfy paranoid environmentalist too.:lpf:

So, it is a win/win plan Charlie. Thanks again for sharing your ideas and expertise.

I am hoping to build a few dozen of these ant-proof beehive stands because they work absolutely flawlessly.

I was able to pick up hundreds of aluminum thick walled piping and hope to use them for the legs.

I am also selling the aluminum tubing if anyone is interested. They come in 16 inch lengths and have approx. 1/8" thick walls. Strong as can be, and rust proof. $2 per 16" pipe.

Soar


----------



## Surferay

Would like to by some of the pipe


----------



## soarwitheagles

Surferay said:


> Would like to by some of the pipe


PM me if you are interested in the aluminum piping.


----------



## soarwitheagles

Charlie B,

Just finished making a few more of the ant proof beehive stands...

Quick question: Is there much of a difference between the white and the red high temp grease/lube or are they one and the same except for color?


----------



## Charlie B

Soar,

I believe it's the same, the color is different depending on where you buy it.


----------



## soarwitheagles

Charlie B said:


> Soar,
> 
> I believe it's the same, the color is different depending on where you buy it.


Thank you again Charlie B. Picked up the white version at O'Reilly's. Time to shut those ants down again!


----------



## diymom

I am putting up my first stands and am so glad I found this thread, very good info! I agree that it shouldn't impact the environment if it never liquefies. Anyone with a car has the same potential to pollute in this theoretical way...
I have tons of tiny ants that live virtually everywhere so I was seeking a good idea other than oil motes. 
You could probably utilise individual pot pie tins or full size pie tins inverted and filled if you have wooden legs on the stands and are not using metal pipe depending on the size of the lumber


----------



## odfrank

Yes we are lucky to have a talented beekeeper like Charlie inventing brilliant inventions like this antproof stand. That is why he makes the big bucks.


----------



## Charlie B

Ah, thanks Ollie!


----------



## BeeDeane

Charlie B said:


> Here's a modified version that you can attach to an existing hive stand using 1x4 pine and wood dowels. I use this for lightweight nucs and starter hives. For regular hives you can replace the 1x4 pine with 2x6's on top.
> 
> View attachment 3411
> View attachment 3412
> View attachment 3413
> View attachment 3414
> View attachment 3415


Brilliant Charlie! And a good thing you know your way around the woodwork shop! I have tried so many things but still lost 70% of my bees to red ants. Now I feel better equipped going to war!


----------



## ronke

David, I have the same stand but can't figure out how to get the end caps on it. From all the purple in your picture, I'm guessing you cut the caps and then glued them back around the legs. But how did you keep the caps from just sliding down the legs?


----------



## diymom

Drill a small pilot hole and put a screw in it while the cap is above, leave the head of the screw a 1/4" out and it should stop the cap from going down, or drill pilot hole completely through and stick a wire through it. Or wrap some thick rubber bands around the leg to keep the cap up...then fill with grease. The options are limitless.


----------



## PaulT

Lowes has a low pressure rated sewer cap with a flat surface that works well. Less than $2.00.


----------



## soarwitheagles

ronke said:


> David, I have the same stand but can't figure out how to get the end caps on it. From all the purple in your picture, I'm guessing you cut the caps and then glued them back around the legs. But how did you keep the caps from just sliding down the legs?


Here is how I did mine:

1. Drill hole through legs
2. Install a nail.
3. Cut out a bean can/tuna can lid.
4. Place lid of can on top of nail.
5. Grease PVC cap.
6. Install greased PVC cap.
7. Done deal.


----------



## ronke

Thanks all of you for the great ideas! I'm sure one will work on the rebar.


----------



## Motomania

I skimmed thru all the posts in this thread; but didn't see this addressed. (Sorry if it's a dumb question)
-
Anyone have any issues with ants building a dead ant bridge; by walking across the backs of other dead ants thru the grease?
-
(I noticed a ton of sugar ants making a trail up the side of the hive; and love how brilliantly simple this design is!:thumbsup


----------



## Charlie B

Moto,

I've never had that problem here in California with Argentine ants.


----------



## Motomania

Charlie B said:


> Moto,
> 
> I've never had that problem here in California with Argentine ants.


-
That's awesome. Good to hear Charlie; must be something in the grease that keeps them at bay. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## soarwitheagles

Moto,

Same here! On most stands like this, I have never had any ants make it up to the hive, even after over one entire year of placement.

I did make the mistake of not mowing all the wild grass at one beehive location...a few ants were able to make it up to the hive because they climbed the tall grass that acted as a bridge, enabling them to bypass the grease.

After removing the tall grass, no more ants were able to access the hive.

Moral of the story: Either cut the grass around the ant proof beehive stand, or spray some round up to kill it all.

Hope this helps!


----------



## Motomania

Good to hear soar! I think you folks in the typically warmer climates have more aggressive ants then us in the Midwest.........no grass within a few feet of the hive either........ So fingers crossed things will work fine!


----------



## soarwitheagles

Motomania said:


> Good to hear soar! I think you folks in the typically warmer climates have more aggressive ants then us in the Midwest.........no grass within a few feet of the hive either........ So fingers crossed things will work fine!


Moto,

At our specific location, we have 5 different varieties of ants that I have counted, and I often counted one nest per every 200 sq. ft. It was an epidemic. The red fire ant, the large black ants [most deadly to bees], medium size black ants, Argentine ant, an ant a little larger than the Argentine ant, and finally an ant about one third the size of the Argentine ant.

Last year, I went on a Talistar/Termidor ant massacre and killed over 50 ant hives/nests. *Some of these ant varieties are so aggressive that I was concerned they would even kill our newly arrived sheep, so I was left with no other choice.* Both Talistar and Termidor are incredibly toxic, so cannot spray anywhere even near a hive. The fact of the matter is, I did not spray. I located ant nests, then poured the stuff down their holes according to the instructions, then sealed the holes with natural clay found here.

Good news: 100% kill rate.

Hope this helps and good luck with your ant proof beehive stand! I really like Charlie's design...he has mastered it!


----------



## cervus

soarwitheagles said:


> Here is how I did mine:
> 
> 1. Drill hole through legs
> 2. Install a nail.
> 3. Cut out a bean can/tuna can lid.
> 4. Place lid of can on top of nail.
> 5. Grease PVC cap.
> 6. Install greased PVC cap.
> 7. Done deal.
> 
> View attachment 24137
> View attachment 24138
> View attachment 24139


What is the purpose of the bean can/tuna can lid? Wouldn't the nail hold the cap in place by itself?


----------



## soarwitheagles

cervus said:


> What is the purpose of the bean can/tuna can lid? Wouldn't the nail hold the cap in place by itself?


Great question! Yes, the nail does hold the cap in place by itself...on my very first build, I did not realize this, so I added the bean can lids, thinking they were needed for the stability of the cap.

On all the subsequent builds we used only the nails, and it works great.

Best of all, we no longer needed to eat so much canned beans and tuna [the gas was so bad it was killing our bees].

Hope this helps!


----------



## cervus

Yes, that helps. Thanks for posting your build. Gave me some ideas.


----------



## soarwitheagles

cervus said:


> Yes, that helps. Thanks for posting your build. Gave me some ideas.


Cervus, glad we could help you. Please post pics of your build and any mods so we can all keep improving upon Charlie's masterpiece!


----------



## Motomania

Thanks for everyone's input. I had ants ravaging my hive and last night put my ant proof hive stand under my hive and within hours........Poof!.........All ants gone and they can't get back in. Whatta huge relief!
-
I'll try and post a pic of my setup later. I just used 3" diameter PVC caps and 2" PVC pipe with PVC cement. Then I had some scrap aluminum square tubing I used to just tie it all together; so the legs wouldn't wobble, when I put the hive on the ant proof stand legs.
-
Thanks again....... and my bees thank everyone too. They can now get to the sugar syrup up top unharassed!


----------



## BASFStewardship

soarwitheagles said:


> Moto,
> 
> At our specific location, we have 5 different varieties of ants that I have counted, and I often counted one nest per every 200 sq. ft. It was an epidemic. The red fire ant, the large black ants [most deadly to bees], medium size black ants, Argentine ant, an ant a little larger than the Argentine ant, and finally an ant about one third the size of the Argentine ant.
> 
> Last year, I went on a Talistar/Termidor ant massacre and killed over 50 ant hives/nests. *Some of these ant varieties are so aggressive that I was concerned they would even kill our newly arrived sheep, so I was left with no other choice.* Both Talistar and Termidor are incredibly toxic, so cannot spray anywhere even near a hive. The fact of the matter is, I did not spray. I located ant nests, then poured the stuff down their holes according to the instructions, then sealed the holes with natural clay found here.
> 
> Good news: 100% kill rate.
> 
> Hope this helps and good luck with your ant proof beehive stand! I really like Charlie's design...he has mastered it!


As the manufacturer of Termidor® products, we have committed to the EPA to carefully monitor, and instruct upon, the correct use of our products. As part of our commitment to EPA, we have monitored this site. 
Your recent participation in a conversation around the BASF product Termidor® termiticide/insecticide gave us concern about your possible use of the product. While we do not have all the facts surrounding your use, it is important that you understand the following:

•	Non-labeled use of federally registered pesticides is a violation of federal and state law. 

•	Uses not included on the Label have not been evaluated for human and environmental safety and can result in human and environmental hazard.

Please carefully review the label to confirm the legal permitted uses of Termidor. You may also visit our website, pestcontrol.basf.us/properuse, which also contains information on the proper use of Termidor. For any questions you may have, you may call us at 800-777-8570, or email questions to [email protected] . We also encourage you to share these resources with anyone you suspect may be involved in the non-labeled use of Termidor®. 

Thank You

The BASF Product Stewardship Team


----------



## soarwitheagles

BASFStewardship said:


> As the manufacturer of Termidor® products, we have committed to the EPA to carefully monitor, and instruct upon, the correct use of our products. As part of our commitment to EPA, we have monitored this site.
> Your recent participation in a conversation around the BASF product Termidor® termiticide/insecticide gave us concern about your possible use of the product. While we do not have all the facts surrounding your use, it is important that you understand the following:
> 
> •	Non-labeled use of federally registered pesticides is a violation of federal and state law.
> 
> •	Uses not included on the Label have not been evaluated for human and environmental safety and can result in human and environmental hazard.
> 
> Please carefully review the label to confirm the legal permitted uses of Termidor. You may also visit our website, pestcontrol.basf.us/properuse, which also contains information on the proper use of Termidor. For any questions you may have, you may call us at 800-777-8570, or email questions to [email protected] . We also encourage you to share these resources with anyone you suspect may be involved in the non-labeled use of Termidor®.
> 
> Thank You
> 
> The BASF Product Stewardship Team


Hello Mr. BASFStewardship Team! 

I am so happy to hear that you carefully monitor, and instruct upon, the correct use of your products. Nothing like true genuine accountability! Sounds very similar to our US government's radically increasing desire to control literally every aspect of her citizens' lives!

Well, I have very good news for you!

After carefully reviewing the label on the product I used to "treat" the aggressive ants, I came to the sudden realization that I wasn't using Termidor at all! Whew! What a wonderful mistake.

So you can now rest assured that I in no way, shape, or form violated the Termidor's label's instructions and/or legal permitted uses of Termidor.

So, no need to call, email, or contact you or any others at BASF-Product-Stewardship.

Have a wonderful day.

Soar


----------



## BeeBop

BASFStewardship said:


> As the manufacturer of Termidor® products, we have committed to the EPA to carefully monitor, and instruct upon, the correct use of our products. As part of our commitment to EPA, we have monitored this site.


Haha... thanks for the reminder to add the word "Termidor®" to my signature line on all the web forums I frequent. 
Job security for you folks.


----------



## Motomania

Motomania said:


> Thanks for everyone's input. I had ants ravaging my hive and last night put my ant proof hive stand under my hive and within hours........Poof!.........All ants gone and they can't get back in. Whatta huge relief!
> -
> I'll try and post a pic of my setup later. I just used 3" diameter PVC caps and 1&1/2" PVC pipe with PVC cement. Then I had some scrap aluminum square tubing I used to just tie it all together; so the legs wouldn't wobble, when I put the hive on the ant proof stand legs.
> -
> Thanks again....... and my bees thank everyone too. They can now get to the sugar syrup up top unharassed!


-
Here's the pics of my PVC ant proof stand. (Spray painted white PVC, camo green) Worked like a charm! (Excuse all the camo, I have nervous neighbors I'd like to keep the peace with
-
I couldn't edit my original post; so I edited the dimensions of the sized PVC pieces I used.
-


----------



## BeeBop

That's similar to the setup I use except instead of PVC caps I'm using 12 oz tuna cans. Tuna cans are cheap and with each can I get a couple of complementary tuna sandwiches...

Love the camo!


----------



## Charlie B

Nice Moto, looks awesome!


----------



## soarwitheagles

Moto,

I like your camouflage paint and the hive stand too. You have solved your ant problem now.

Congrats!


----------



## soarwitheagles

BeeBop said:


> That's similar to the setup I use except instead of PVC caps I'm using 12 oz tuna cans. Tuna cans are cheap and with each can I get a couple of complementary tuna sandwiches...
> 
> Love the camo!


Beebop,

Please post some pics!


----------



## Fishmaster50

soarwitheagles said:


> Beebop,
> 
> Please post some pics!


 Do you want to see his tuna fish sandwich?


----------



## soarwitheagles

Fishmaster50 said:


> Do you want to see his tuna fish sandwich?


Well, it would be nice to see his ant proof beehive stand, but if he would also like to show off his tuna fish sandwich, I suppose that would be ok, but he better be very careful that he doesn't violate any of the guidelines of the overbearing, far reaching, controller wanna bees of the BASFStewardship Team!

They are watching our every move [or, at least want us to think they are]!

I think many people pretend to represent them, but in all reality, they belong to ignorant fear filled groups such as (BUND) = Friends of the Earth, BUNDjugend (BUND's Youth organization), NABU, Greenpeace, etc.


----------



## tns

*A variation on the ant guards*

I modified an existing free-standing hive box using 1/2" galvanized bolts, nuts, washers and 1-1/2" pvc end caps. The bolts are inserted into a 2x4 cross-brace, and sit on a brick or paver to keep it out of the dirt. In the OP, the cups were filled with grease. By coating the interior of the cup instead of filling it, there is a barrier of grease over 4" wide. So far so good.


----------



## IslandLife

*Re: A variation on the ant guards*

Variations on the theme. One is to fight cane toads and ants, the PVC one for ants only ...:


----------



## soarwitheagles

*Re: A variation on the ant guards*



tns said:


> I modified an existing free-standing hive box using 1/2" galvanized bolts, nuts, washers and 1-1/2" pvc end caps. The bolts are inserted into a 2x4 cross-brace, and sit on a brick or paver to keep it out of the dirt. In the OP, the cups were filled with grease. By coating the interior of the cup instead of filling it, there is a barrier of grease over 4" wide. So far so good.





IslandLife said:


> Variations on the theme. One is to fight cane toads and ants, the PVC one for ants only ...:
> 
> View attachment 26134
> View attachment 26135


I like how both of you modified the original plan to meet your specific needs. Awesome hive stands, and congrats on winning the battle with the ants and the toads!

Beautiful job!


----------



## Tessw8

So if I'm understanding this correctly the ants climb the pipe and drown in the grease? If not please correct me if I'm wrong 17 pages later I'm still confused :-(


----------



## IslandLife

Tessw8 said:


> So if I'm understanding this correctly the ants climb the pipe and drown in the grease? If not please correct me if I'm wrong 17 pages later I'm still confused :-(


Some ants may get stuck in the sticky grease, but most will recognize the danger and turn back. It's like creating a moat around your castle ....


----------



## soarwitheagles

IslandLife said:


> Some ants may get stuck in the sticky grease, but most will recognize the danger and turn back. It's like creating a moat around your castle ....


Yep, exactly!


----------



## Tessw8

Thanks ants are a big problem around here and I want to stop that problem before it happens


----------



## soarwitheagles

Tessw8 said:


> Thanks ants are a big problem around here and I want to stop that problem before it happens


Tess,

In our locale, we have had an incredibly serious problem with several different species of ants. After building and installing these ant proof hive stands, not one ant has made it up to the hives...and I am talking like one entire year so far.

The one thing you must remember is to not lean anything against the stands...otherwise it would serve as a ladder for the ants.

Hope this helps!


----------



## Tessw8

Yes soarwitheagles that helps a lot thank you!


----------



## DavidZ

one word...Tanglefoot, it's sticky but it's works better than having cans of oils and grease. imo


----------



## Gypsi

my pipe stand is horizontal and rests on cinderblocks. I used thin duct tape to make rings around the pipes on either side of the cinderblocks and paint that with tanglefoot anytime I see an ant on a hive. which seems to be about once a year. works great


----------



## soarwitheagles




----------



## Charlie B

Wow Soar, quite impressive! Love the hive stands!


----------



## montenido

bookmarking this thread. Thanks


----------



## SarahCurrie

Good luck.


----------



## soarwitheagles

Charlie B said:


> Wow Soar, quite impressive! Love the hive stands!


Charlie,

Without people like you, I would have remained totally lost and clueless on how to solve the vicious ant problem here.

I did modify my plans again. Realized your design with two of the 2"x4" for the top rail was much stronger and easier to keep level too. I was trying too much to save money with those warped 2"x3"'s and it wasn't working out as well. Now I am really happy with the results.

FYI everyone, not even one ant has made it up to the hives, and this is now more than a year for the original hive stands. This design stops them in their tracks! Finally found something that genuinely works and it works long term. Still haven't changed out the grease. It appears as new as when I put it in a year ago. 

Thanks again!

Have a great day everyone!


----------



## Gypsi

Glad this thread is still here and teaching


----------



## BeeHoosier

I will be making this stand soon as a 6' long version instead of using 8' pieces. Thanks for the info!

Couple of questions:

1) Is there any problem if using 2x4 pieces of lumber for the frame and cross-members instead of using 2x6 lumber?

2) I assume using treated lumber for this is fine? 

3) I assume any high temp disc brake grease will work or is there some specific brand or something I need to look for?

4) What keeps the upside down PVS end cap in place on the legs so it doesn't slip down?


----------



## soarwitheagles

BeeHoosier said:


> I will be making this stand soon as a 6' long version instead of using 8' pieces. Thanks for the info!
> 
> Couple of questions:
> 
> 1) Is there any problem if using 2x4 pieces of lumber for the frame and cross-members instead of using 2x6 lumber?
> 
> 2) I assume using treated lumber for this is fine?
> 
> 3) I assume any high temp disc brake grease will work or is there some specific brand or something I need to look for?
> 
> 4) What keeps the upside down PVS end cap in place on the legs so it doesn't slip down?


Hi BeeHoosier!

1. I used 2x4, not 2x6 and it works perfectly.
2. I used treated only on the 4x4 and 4x6 legs. Really do not think it is necessary because no part of my beehive stand is touching the ground.
3. I used Master Pro from Oreilly's.
4. I have used a nail inserted to the drilled hole in the leg. My first version I used the nail and a can lid, but do not think the can lid is necessary.

I believe Charlie is using a closet hanger wood dowel with the PVC cap screwed into it. Correct me if I am wrong Charlie!

See pics!

Hope this helps you!

Soar


----------



## Charlie B

Yes, you got it Soar.


----------



## BeeHoosier

Thanks for the info! I like the idea of the plastic coated closet dowel. Seems like they are cheap and easy to cut to my desired length and easy to drill through.


----------



## BeeHoosier

Charlie B, one thing I still am not totally clear on is how you attach the wooden dowel to the upper wooden frame? I get that you drill a hole with a forstner bit in the 4x4 and the dowel goes into that on the bottom, but how does the top of the dowel attach to the upper wooden frame where the hive sits? (I checked out your post #35 but still a little in the dark on the process)


----------



## Charlie B

Drill a pilot hole at a steep angle through the top wood frame into the cup and dowel. Then screw in a 3" screw to attach.


----------



## soarwitheagles

So sorry Charlie, but your tuna....:scratch:

Ok, not wanting to sound proud or arrogant, but I feel my idea is better. I simply bore a hole slightly larger in diameter than the dowel, pipe, aluminum tubing, etc. approximately 3/4" in depth into the 2x4 runner. Then, the bored 2x4 runner simply inserts into the dowel, pipe, aluminum tubing, etc. approximately 3/4" depth. This keeps the top runners from movement and is significantly more secure. I realize the weight of several hives is probably enough to keep the runners in place while attached with a single screw. My concern is in the event of a significant windstorm, the single screw attachment point may be compromised. 

I also like the freedom of simply lifting off the 2x4 if need be, no unscrewing required.

Yours truly, 

Starkist 70's :lpf:


----------



## Charlie B

I'm stealing your idea Soar!!!


----------



## soarwitheagles

Charlie B said:


> I'm stealing your idea Soar!!!


Just messin' a little with ya Charlie!


----------



## IAmTheWaterbug

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> The stand my first beek mentor gave me is on four 1/2" x 10" galvanized pipe nipples with galvanized floor flanges on the underside:
> 
> View attachment 23308
> 
> View attachment 23307
> 
> 
> I have a layer of Tanglefoot on the legs to keep the ants off. I have to refresh it a couple times a year. I might try the PVC collar/grease option.
> 
> I wanted to build another one of these, and I was similarly appalled at the price of the pipe flanges. Even the 1/2" ones are $6.84/each.
> 
> Searching around the internet I found Menards, who sell the floor flanges for $3.78/each. The pipe nipples were $2.47/each. You have to pay for shipping, but it still saves money vs. Home Depot or Lowes, especially if you're building more than one.
> 
> I like this design because I can move it around, and I used bolts and nuts so I can even disassemble it completely.


I found a place in AZ with 1/2" galvanized floor flanges for $1.82/each, plus shipping. The shipping is reasonable on a per-piece basis once you put a bunch in your cart. If I buy 16 pieces the shipping is $12, which makes them $2.57/each, delivered.

I'm thinking of putting these floor flanges on the bottoms of my pipe nipples, to spread the load out across the concrete tile. I'm afraid that, if a hive gets really heavy, I could have a lot of weight on a little circle and crack the tiles.


----------



## Jim Rieck

This thread came in really handy just this week. I don't have the sort of ants you folks have down south, but I had an attack by Western Thatcher ants that nearly killed off one of my colonies. I quick built your modified version, evicted the ants, and set everything back up again. I checked today and all is well. None are crossing the grease. Just the week before I saw the queen, eggs, larvae, and capped brood. When I went through the entire hive frame by frame to get all of the ants out of there I saw the queen, but no eggs, larvae, or capped brood. The ants had taken them all and were decapitating the workers. Anyway, your design was a God-send for me and I thank you very much.


----------



## soarwitheagles

Jim Rieck said:


> This thread came in really handy just this week. I don't have the sort of ants you folks have down south, but I had an attack by Western Thatcher ants that nearly killed off one of my colonies. I quick built your modified version, evicted the ants, and set everything back up again. I checked today and all is well. None are crossing the grease. Just the week before I saw the queen, eggs, larvae, and capped brood. When I went through the entire hive frame by frame to get all of the ants out of there I saw the queen, but no eggs, larvae, or capped brood. The ants had taken them all and were decapitating the workers. Anyway, your design was a God-send for me and I thank you very much.
> View attachment 32065
> View attachment 32066


Jim,

Those ants look like something out of a horror film! Wow, never seen ants that also look a bit like spiders!

So glad to hear you saved your bees. I see you may have more hives.

Remember, you can also make entire ant proof stands, that can allow 5-6 hives per stand. I experimented with 10 ft. 2x4 rails up top and was able to fit 6 full hive boxes.

I have attached some pics of the stands I made that are 8 ft. in length and able to accommodate 5 full size boxes.

Special thanks to tuna fish Charlie for his great ideas! We have not had one ant in our hives for nearly two years now.

Have a great day Jim!


----------



## Jim Rieck

Thanks, Soar. This was a true emergency fix. I didn't even take the time to paint the "grease lifts." I have a number of hives in this area and figure that it is only a matter of time before the scoundrels discover the other colonies. Normally, I only have to deal with sugar ants, which are just pesky. I'll look over the ideas in this thread and do something permanent. Thanks, again. I'll post one more picture. It isn't in focus very well, but it shows what these thatcher ants do when the beekeeper approaches. They get up on their hind legs and snap their pincers at you. Creepy.


----------



## CWHeadley

Very nice. Will this work with full hives too, or is it suitable for only nucs?


----------



## Jim Rieck

I think most of the hives in this thread are full hives. Mine are 8 frame Langstroths, which might have looked as if they were nucs.


----------



## soarwitheagles

CWHeadley said:


> Very nice. Will this work with full hives too, or is it suitable for only nucs?


Works with full hives, 3-4 supers stacked upon one another no problem at all. I highly recommend Charlie's design for the top rails. During my first couple of builds I used a single 3"x4" for the top rail. It worked, but the holes must be drilled with the exact same depth and I feel it was a little weak. I like Charlie's top rail design where he uses two 2"x4"'s one horizontal, the other vertical, attached one to another. It is much more structurally sound and if you drill all the holes to the exact same depth, you have a perfectly symmetrical bee hive stand. He uses wood dowels for attaching his 2x4's, I prefer metal tubing or metal pipe.

If you use 10 ft. 2x4's, you can actually fit 6 of the Langstroth hives per stand. I fought ants day and night until I discovered Charlie's Ant Proof Beehive stand designs here. I tried all sorts of old wives tales such as cinnamon, water buckets on the legs, oil buckets on the legs, etc. The only thing these old wive tales did was kill massive numbers of bees and help the ants to eventually kill my hive. As mentioned before, not even one ant has made it up to our hives in nearly two years, and I haven't even replaced the bearing grease...




Jim Rieck said:


> Thanks, Soar. This was a true emergency fix. I didn't even take the time to paint the "grease lifts." I have a number of hives in this area and figure that it is only a matter of time before the scoundrels discover the other colonies. Normally, I only have to deal with sugar ants, which are just pesky. I'll look over the ideas in this thread and do something permanent. Thanks, again. I'll post one more picture. It isn't in focus very well, but it shows what these thatcher ants do when the beekeeper approaches. They get up on their hind legs and snap their pincers at you. Creepy.
> View attachment 32075


Sure look like aggressive ants! We have stinging red fire ants, large black ants, medium size black ants, Argentine ants, and super small black ants. That is five varieties that I have seen at our ranch and I would not be surprised if there are other varieties that I may have missed. The large black and the fire ants have no stopping sense at all. You either kill em', block em', or lose all your bees here. Simply no other way to raise bees successfully here unless you deal with the ant problem...


----------



## tjalbina

I am new to beekeeping and to this thread. We have carpenter, fire, black and other ants that I feel will be my biggest problem to solve, so I intend to solve it up front. I love the Charlie idea, but when I priced out the whole shebang (modified to use a U versus a T as we have hurricanes in FL) the price tag was approaching $200! So, if I put down one concrete block then an inverted cookie sheet then another block topped by 4X4 to rest two hives on, I think I have accomplished the main idea. Question is, will the hi-temp grease stay in the lip of the inverted cookie sheet or will it run out? Thoughts?


----------



## Jim Rieck

tjalbina, it seems to me the hi-temp grease would stay put okay. However, some folks here are recommending I use a product called Tanglefoot. It comes in a few forms, but I am thinking of buying the aeresol spray can and just touching up the posts on my grease lift stand. You could try spraying it under your inverted cookie sheets. It would probably work fine and you wouldn't have to mess with the wheel bearing grease. It performs the same function by presenting a sticky surface to the ants over which they can't tresspass. Good luck.


----------



## Charlie B

tjalbina said:


> I am new to beekeeping and to this thread. We have carpenter, fire, black and other ants that I feel will be my biggest problem to solve, so I intend to solve it up front. I love the Charlie idea, but when I priced out the whole shebang (modified to use a U versus a T as we have hurricanes in FL) the price tag was approaching $200! So, if I put down one concrete block then an inverted cookie sheet then another block topped by 4X4 to rest two hives on, I think I have accomplished the main idea. Question is, will the hi-temp grease stay in the lip of the inverted cookie sheet or will it run out? Thoughts?


I know it’s a lot to read but if you look through the wood version it’s much cheaper. DO NOT USE TANGLEFOOT. It melts and runs around 85-90 degrees. Use the High temp brake grease. It doesn’t run.


----------



## Jim Rieck

Thanks Charlie B. You just saved me about $20.00 and some frustration.


----------



## tjalbina

Roger on the hi-temp grease, thanks. I looked through the wood designs and next to ants, termites are next on the list of West Central Florida pests!! Trying to stay away from wood down low. Will likely use 4 10-12" pipe sections and use flanges on either end, top screwed to pressure treated 4X4 frame and the bottom setting on a brick. Will use the PVC caps and hi temp grease on the top of the pipe under the flange. Total cost without the grease about $118. That is doable and likely solves the ant and termite problem! Will also be able to strap over the entire thing to posts in the ground during a hurricane. Thank you all for your insights and experiences.

Update: Just saw the post above on the flanges out of AZ, sweet! Cost without grease down to $70.02


----------



## Charlie B

Nice:thumbsup:


----------



## IAmTheWaterbug

tjalbina said:


> I love the Charlie idea, but when I priced out the whole shebang (modified to use a U versus a T as we have hurricanes in FL) the price tag was approaching $200!


I built mine for $95:


*Item**Qty**Price**Extension*2 x 6 x 10 redwood214.67 29.34 Bolt81.62 12.96 Washer160.11 1.72 Nut80.10 0.79 Pipe nipple42.72 10.88 Floor flange82.32 18.56 PVC cap42.00 8.00 Hose clamp41.00 4.00 Paver stones41.00 4.00 Axle grease0.510.00 5.00 *$95.24*

and that includes a lot of over-engineering, like floor flanges on both sides of the pipe nipple, and new redwood.


----------



## Charlie B

Hey Waterbug, post some pics please.


----------



## soarwitheagles

Charlie,

Thanks again for sharing your great ideas with all of us here! We have a goal to reach 100+ colonies this year so time to mass produce the stands! Still thinking about patenting your plan, selling millions of them, and moving/retiring in the Bahamas and living happily ever after!



PS Upside down painted tuna cans cost much less than the PVC caps and with my wood find at the auction, I am able to manufacture the stands now at less than $8 per stand. Really can't beat it considering all the bee colonies these stands are saving...thanks again!

PSS I still highly suggest people auger the bottom side of the top rails at least to a depth of a half inch to keep the top rails from sliding off the closet hanger dowels. A few screws do not seem sufficient to secure the top rails during high wind storms!


----------



## tjalbina

Here is a couple of pics of my completed stand in the garage. Going to get Master Pro grease, soon. First time trying to post pics...we shall see!!


----------



## IAmTheWaterbug

soarwitheagles said:


> PS Upside down painted tuna cans cost much less than the PVC caps.


Nice tip! Gourmet 5.5 oz cat food cans also are about the exact size of a PVC cap. Too bad you didn't post that last year!


----------



## soarwitheagles

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> Nice tip! Gourmet 5.5 oz cat food cans also are about the exact size of a PVC cap. Too bad you didn't post that last year!


Yes, so sorry! If you slap some decent paint on the tuna/cat food cans, they will not rust and should last years...



tjalbina said:


> Here is a couple of pics of my completed stand in the garage. Going to get Master Pro grease, soon. First time trying to post pics...we shall see!!
> 
> View attachment 37664
> 
> 
> View attachment 37665



Excellent job and I am certain you will have no ants at all! Just remember to apply generous amounts of the grease and do not permit any grass to grow and touch any part of the stand that is above the grease line.

Oh, I also highly recommend you slap a coat of primer and a decent coat of exterior paint on your wood.

Enjoy!


----------



## Charlie B

tjalbina said:


> Here is a couple of pics of my completed stand in the garage. Going to get Master Pro grease, soon. First time trying to post pics...we shall see!!
> 
> View attachment 37664
> 
> 
> View attachment 37665


Nice:applause:


----------



## soarwitheagles

Oh, I also recommend you paint the PVC caps and perhaps even the steel pipes.

http://www.nacopvc.com/c/tech-info/the-effects-of-sunlight-exposure-on-pvc-pipe

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/does-long-term-exposure-sunlight-degrade-poly-vinyl-chloride-workman

https://www.impomag.com/article/2002/03/understanding-corrosion-and-how-protect-against-it


----------



## soarwitheagles

Charlie B said:


> Nice:applause:


Charlie,

We were able to pick up over 500 linear feet of metal shelving "L" shaped at the auction for $25.

I am posting a pic of our first prototype. Please let me know what you think of it!

My only concern is whether or not the grease will stay in stainless steel square caps...we will paint the caps white to reduce the heat factor

Also, we were able to do another modification on the caps for the wood versions...it has worked well. I will try to post some pics soon. Basically it entails cutting 3" diameter ABS pipe into 2" pieces. Then, we attach a piece of thin sheet metal on top with two tabs for screws. Comes out to less than $0.7 per grease cap. The Home Depot PVC caps were taking a toll on our budget at nearly $4 per cap!

Cheers!


----------



## Charlie B

Soar,

You could cut up some 1/8” hardware cloth and fastened inside the cups to help hold the grease.


----------



## soarwitheagles

Charlie B said:


> Soar,
> 
> You could cut up some 1/8” hardware cloth and fastened inside the cups to help hold the grease.


Charlie,

Brilliant idea indeed! Thank you! We will give it a try!

Here's the painted version...just finished it a couple of minutes ago!


----------



## soarwitheagles

Finished prototype!

Notice white paint applied to the steel rectangles to lower temps to avoid grease melting off the metal.

We will set this stand in the sun today after applying the high temp grease. We will have nearly 7 days of triple digit temps starting Friday, so this will be a great time to test this new version.


----------



## Charlie B

It may hold but with a cup that big I would put some screen in as a backer.


----------



## soarwitheagles

Charlie B said:


> It may hold but with a cup that big I would put some screen in as a backer.


Charlie,

Thanks again for your input!

Well, that cup is galvanized steel with dimensions of 4"x5"x.75", so I suppose it appears much larger that it truly is.

So far it was worked well. But we haven't had any of the insane hot days of over 110F+ like last year yet...

Will install the screen if we begin to lose any of the hi temp grease!

Thanks again for excellent advice Charlie!


----------



## odfrank

How do commercial California beekeepers set up nucs to protect them from ants? I can't believe they spend as much time and money as Charlie and Soar have.


----------



## soarwitheagles

odfrank said:


> How do commercial California beekeepers set up nucs to protect them from ants? I can't believe they spend as much time and money as Charlie and Soar have.


Frank, I look forward to see if any commercial beeks respond to your excellent question...

We recently moved many, many colonies to a site that was once used by a commercial beekeeper. On the ground we discovered weird black strips of a strange material that appeared similar to felt underlayment of roofs.

We were wondering if he was attempting to control the ant challenge with this material. Not sure to be exact...it could have been something used to treat for the varroa mite.

Needless to say, any colonies without the world famous Charlie ant-proof stands had MASSIVE ant activity! Colonies with the ant proof stands did not have even one ant on them...

In other locations I also know of some people that decimated all ant colonies near their colonies months before bee placement and they simply placed their colonies on bricks or wood 4x6 and no problem with ants there too...

I am beginning to see that the ant challenge is site specific. Some places have massive ant attacks whereas other sites have negligible numbers of ants...

I am totally interested to see how other beeks are saving their bees from the bee attacks!

*Remember: We lost our very first colony of bees to relentless nocturnal ant attacks and it was totally heart breaking!*


----------



## Charlie B

odfrank said:


> How do commercial California beekeepers set up nucs to protect them from ants? I can't believe they spend as much time and money as Charlie and Soar have.


I will thank you to note Mr. Frank that this very valuable and informative thread has over 130,000 views. I think it would be helpful if you recognize other beekeepers may have ant problems that you have never had. Maybe you should be a little less judgie?


----------



## Gypsi

somebody come build me one of these. Charlie? OD?


----------



## odfrank

Charlie will do it for a case of Guinness.



Gypsi said:


> somebody come build me one of these. Charlie? OD?


----------



## Charlie B

Road trip!!!:thumbsup:


----------



## soarwitheagles

Just thought I would make good on my promise to post instructions on how to make super cheap grease pods...the $3-$4 Home Depo 3 inch PCP end caps were too expensive for us to use as we began to build many more of these ant proof bee hive stands...

Here's the material list for producing super inexpensive ABS grease pods:

3"x10' black ABS [using a cut off wheel/chop saw, we were able to quickly cut the ABS into 2 inch pieces...so that was roughly 60 pieces per 10 ft section of ABS]
Scrap sheet metal [the thinner the better]
Self tapping 1/2" pan head screws 
Primer and paint

And we will also try our hand at using bean cans for the grease pods too. Will post some pics of those later...

Trying to make do with odds and ends we have laying around...we call it hill billy style!

Hope this helps!

Enjoy!


----------



## soarwitheagles

Total cost of each stand:

$6 Tubing
$5 Scrap wood 
$4 Scrap metal
$3 Paint/grease
$2 Grease pods

Total cost, under $20.

Here's a pic of a finished grease pod!









Happy Belated Halloween everyone!


----------



## barrett_steele

Love the ingenuity, All!

I have a related question for you all. I'm a beginner, and just bought one of those plastic hive stands like this one: https://harvestlane.com/products/hive-stand

I currently have the feet sitting in shallow aluminum plans filled with vegetable oil, and the pans are filling with dead bees (Which also apparently like the oil). The short story is that the legs of that stand won't allow me to use the upside-down-cap-full-of-grease trick. And I don't have the ability right now to create a new stand from pipe.

If I set out new pans under the legs and filled them with grease, do you see any problems? Yes, the grease wouldn't be upside-down, and some bees will get stuck in that too. Maybe I could tape little plastic overhang to the legs above the pans to keep bees from dropping down into the grease. Do you have any other ideas?

Thanks ahead of time for your help!
B


----------



## Goat Man

Since your ability to modify the hive stand you bought, it would be hard to suggest any changes to it. I would not put pans of grease or oil under the hives though.
You could fill the pans with water until you can make a better stand. I am assuming you are in a warm climate? Water wouldn't work if it just freezes up on you. In my area, Missouri, ants are not a problem for at least a couple of more months. The bottom line to this method is to make a barrier of grease between the ground and the hive that will be out of the weather and sun. Be sure to use high temp auto grease it is a petroleum product and the bees don't like it. Good luck.


----------



## barrett_steele

Goat Man said:


> Since your ability to modify the hive stand you bought, it would be hard to suggest any changes to it. I would not put pans of grease or oil under the hives though.
> You could fill the pans with water until you can make a better stand. I am assuming you are in a warm climate? Water wouldn't work if it just freezes up on you. In my area, Missouri, ants are not a problem for at least a couple of more months. The bottom line to this method is to make a barrier of grease between the ground and the hive that will be out of the weather and sun. Be sure to use high temp auto grease it is a petroleum product and the bees don't like it. Good luck.



Thanks for your reply. Yep, I'm in southern California, so Argentine ants are crazy here. After I submitted my first post a few hours ago, I found some stuff online about using Neverwet on the stand legs, or putting metal tape on the legs and using it there. I'll remove the oil pans and give that a try. Maybe after I remove the top feeder, the ants won't care as much anyway. (wishful thinking)

Thanks!


----------



## Goat Man

No Argentine ants here yet, thank goodness. I don't know your wood working abilities but if you have the skills and tools you can make a wooden hive stand that you can put up to 4 hives on and make it ant proof in the process for less money. If you do use water in the pans you will have to keep watch on them as the ants will make a raft out of dead ant bodies and get across to the hive. It is a temporary fix.


----------



## viesest

barrett_steele said:


> or putting metal tape on the legs and using it there.


While it looks like shrews can't climb metal legs, a lot of ants in honey extractor means that they have no problem climbing metal. Test them on teflon coated surface.


----------



## R_V

barrett_steele said:


> Thanks for your reply. Yep, I'm in southern California, so Argentine ants are crazy here. After I submitted my first post a few hours ago, I found some stuff online about using Neverwet on the stand legs, or putting metal tape on the legs and using it there. I'll remove the oil pans and give that a try. Maybe after I remove the top feeder, the ants won't care as much anyway. (wishful thinking)
> 
> Thanks!


neverwet works for a while but I found that something (I suspect lizards) was cleaning it off the under side of my inverted cake pans. I sprayed white grease under the cake pans and it resolved the issue for a while. I have to respray it on occasion. 

I made some new ones and smeared axle grease and have not had to reapply. 
keep in mind that rain will splash dirt up under the pan and the ants will be able to cross if the pans are too low to the ground.

looking at the stands you bought, I'd say you can use the cake pans mounted on/between 2x4s or 4x4s laid on top of your stand.

here's my neverwet thread where, in the end, I changed to grease https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?343783-NeverWet-Ant-Barrier-cheap-and-easy


----------



## Goat Man

A cement block with a 6x6 wooden block on top, with a upside down pie pan nailed on top and the underside coated with grease then place your stand on top of that and it will work for you, Check the grease once a month or so for build up debris , Keep us in the loop.


----------



## Gypsi

That would do the trick


----------



## IAmTheWaterbug

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> I found a place in AZ with 1/2" galvanized floor flanges for $1.82/each, plus shipping. The shipping is reasonable on a per-piece basis once you put a bunch in your cart. If I buy 16 pieces the shipping is $12, which makes them $2.57/each, delivered.
> 
> I'm thinking of putting these floor flanges on the bottoms of my pipe nipples, to spread the load out across the concrete tile. I'm afraid that, if a hive gets really heavy, I could have a lot of weight on a little circle and crack the tiles.


These are now available on amazon for $1.60 apiece x 10, including free Prime One-Day shipping.


----------



## IAmTheWaterbug

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> These are now available on amazon for $1.60 apiece x 10, including free Prime One-Day shipping.


Or even less in larger quantities.


----------

