# Help me decide which format of horizontal to do



## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

For what it's worth I am in Zone 7B North Carolina about 30 miles from Charlotte. 

I am taking a season off to prepare, so I have no colonies at present. 
I am abandoning vertical hives. But still have boxes, supers, and frames for Langstroth deep, medium and shallow. And I have a 2 frame extractor. 
I am not opposed to selling off stuff, including the extractor. Nothing is "precious". 
I plan on trapping and catching bees as opposed to buying nuc's and such. 
I build all my own equipment, at least the woodenware. 

I have just read through the two books that Dr. Leo pushes, but I have never gotten an email response to my questions from him so I have no access to an "expert." 

So my thoughts are on depth vs breadth. I seem to see that in colder climates probably above my zone by a significant distance, the Lazutin or Double Deep Langstroth do well at a 14-20 frame width. I like the idea of the Layens in that width as well. But a single height deep at 25-40 seems possible. Initially I was concerned with lateral movement of the cluster during wintering. 

So what's going to be my best bet? I realize that there should be opinions involved. I accept that and realize there is no definitive answer, except for someone with motivation to sell books or speaking engagements or equipment. But I am interested in hearing those opinions an don't need disclaimers to go with them


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## WaverlyBees (Jul 13, 2012)

Abs, I'm not sure I'm qualified to give anyone direction on any type of hive, but I have built two horizontal hives recently and both colonies seem to be doing well. The hives consist of a double deep Langstroth and a modified Layens. 

You can read about them here: DD Langstroth and Layens

Let me know if I can answer any questions.


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

WaverlyBees said:


> Abs, I'm not sure I'm qualified to give anyone direction on any type of hive, but I have built two horizontal hives recently and both colonies seem to be doing well. The hives consist of a double deep Langstroth and a modified Layens.
> 
> You can read about them here: DD Langstroth and Layens
> 
> Let me know if I can answer any questions.


Thanks! I have read through your stuff already. I am looking at everything I can find. 

How have your frames come apart? How did they winter. How well did they fill the frames top to bottom side to side. Those kinds of things would be the questions, but I suppose it is early to ask such things.


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## WaverlyBees (Jul 13, 2012)

The frames can be taken apart or at least they are designed that way. The bees may prove me wrong in the end. They have generally filled the frames top to bottom and done it quite well. Hives have not gone through a winter yet so I can't provide any feedback on that question. I have several other standard Langstroth hives so these are just a hobby within a hobby for me. They are very easy to inspect and easy on the back. Hopefully GregV will see your thread and chime in. He can provide a lot more experience based info.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Everyone has their own individual reasons for keeping bees, and it would be useful to know what your own objectives will now be: whether this is to be a hobby, mainly for fun and curiosity etc., or whether at minimum your bees need to 'pay their way' with a reasonable honey-crop.

One other consideration is whether by specifying 'horizontal' you are firmly wedded to the idea of a single-story hive, or whether a dual-story hive would be acceptable.

Not being from your side of the pond, I had to look-up on a map of The United States where North Carolina was located ... 
FWIW, any suggestions I may post would mostly be based on historical accounts of successful horizontal-hive beekeepers such as Poppleton and Gallup from Iowa, Adair from Kentucky, and of course Doolittle from New York State. All of these guys lived further North than yourself, of course - but their hive formats and practices may be relevant.

For myself - I have no idea at all how our climates compare, but I have a number of horizontal hives: most have around twenty 14" x 8.5" deep frames which over-winter perfectly ok, a few with sixteen to twenty 14" x 12" extra-deep frames which perform exceptionally well. 
Although I'm currently trialling a set of eleven 14" by 17" extra-extra-deep frames, I more-or-less know already that such a depth will be overkill for this location - but this was a format I've been wanting to try-out for some time as that depth of frame fits comfortably into two of our standard brood boxes (so - there was nothing to make, except the frames themselves).

Right now I'm in the early stages of trialling some 'Gallup-style' frames (11 1/4" inches long by 8" & 11" depths) which I'm hoping will become a 'universal' format within this apiary - being a drop-in replacement for the Top Bars of the Warre vertical hive, as well as being suitable for the Gallup & Doolittle 18" 'short' Long Hive (both single-story and 'tiered-up' formats), and the Gallup-Adair single-story Long Hive within the range 36-48". But - I've only just started these trials so it's still early days ...
'best
LJ


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Absinthe, you might want to PM Ruth Meredith (ruthiesbees) here on Beesource. Her climate is similar to yours and she is almost strictly TBH.


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

JWPalmer said:


> Absinthe, you might want to PM Ruth Meredith (ruthiesbees) here on Beesource. Her climate is similar to yours and she is almost strictly TBH.


I see that horizontal and TBH are grouped together here. Do you use the TBH to refer to all horizontal?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

No, TBH's and horizontals are different, but to my understanding, they are managed in a very similar fashion, and are thus grouped together. One of these days I may do a long Lang or a Layens myself to fully appreciate the diffences over the traditional Langs I use now.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Absinthe said:


> I see that horizontal and TBH are grouped together here. Do you use the TBH to refer to all horizontal?


grouping these two together was a mistake, in my opinion. I find them to function a bit differently, but many Lang beekeepers seem to think horizontal with frames and topbar hives sans frames are the same. I find there to be quite a bit of difference in how the colony behaves whether or not the topbars have a gap (with frames) or with no gap (true TBH)


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

So, what if you are doing Layens, (not Colmena Layens) where the frame top bars and side bars are of equal width so presumably, there is no top gap between bars? And now I am seeing no gaps on some side bars. 

So which do do you do, TB or Horizontal?


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Depending on your reasoning for abandoning deep Langstroth boxes (age, injury, just not fun anymore)… you might consider the "double wide" horizontal that I run for honey production. I can't lift much weight so I started with true topbar hives (and they are still my Love in beekeeping) but we do sell the honey I produce at the garden center where I work so I took two 8 frame mediums and placed them side by side to get a measurement for a bottom brood box. It came out to be 27 3/4inches as the outside dimension. That fits 17 frames in the bottom. Then I can super it up with as many mediums as needed for the season.

Currently, that is 4 medium honey supers in coastal VA. They also have about 4-6 frames in the bottom box full of honey since I pulled the queen a month ago. The bottom of the box is screened off, and due to an oops when my husband was cutting the groove for the frames to sit on, there is an opening at each corner. The main entrance is in the first honey super, but the small entrances are used for the winter.

The top has no inner cover, just a sheet of foil faced bubble wrap called Reflextec available at Lowes. Something heavy sits on top of that (like 2 queen excluders or propolis mats just to weight the foil down) and then a waffle aluminum piece on top of that to shed the water, followed by a brick or two. Now that the new queen is in the hive and laying, I put the queen excluders between the brood box and the honey supers. The nectar laden bees don't have to go through the excluder to offload their stash and the 4 bottom entrances are still open so pollen bearing bees can use them without going through the excluder.

Overall, I'm really happy with this design and people in the local bee club that are done lifting double brood boxes are looking into converting over to something similar so they can still utilize all of their drawn frames and extractors.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

JWPalmer said:


> No, TBH's and horizontals are different, but to my understanding,* they are managed in a very similar fashion,* and are thus grouped together. One of these days I may do a long Lang or a Layens myself to fully appreciate the diffences over the traditional Langs I use now.


Only some TBH's. The classic Warre Hive is a Top Bar Hive, isn't a horizontal hive, and is managed in a unique way ... 
LJ


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

So you remove all the supers to winter them? Those are all deeps on the bottom and solely as brood boxes? Am I understanding that correctly?

You are using QE's to keep the queen from laying in the supers? Am I getting this right?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

little_john said:


> Only some TBH's. The classic Warre Hive is a Top Bar Hive, isn't a horizontal hive, and is managed in a unique way ...
> LJ


Thanks for keeping me honest. I view the Warre have as a vertical TBH and failed to include it. I am glad Ruth joined this discussion as she is far more knowlegable about these hives than I am.


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

I just re-viewed that image, you have 4 medium supers on there? Okay, you are definitely my hero! It certainly spreads out the supers some, because I can't imagine 4 mediums stacked. I definitely, want to hear more about this. I do like the idea of true separation between the brood nest and the honey crop.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

JWPalmer said:


> Thanks for keeping me honest. I view the Warre have as a vertical TBH and failed to include it. I am glad Ruth joined this discussion as she is far more knowlegable about these hives than I am.


I think one of the main issues with Top Bar Hives of any kind is that they are limited in the depth of removable combs they can safely support - unless some means of comb reinforcement is provided. The easiest way of providing this is to use a simple framework such as skewers inserted into the Top Bar itself (which would still allow side-adhesions, should these be considered desirable) - or to avoid adhesions, either fully-framed or half-framed Top Bars could be used.
LJ


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

what about the funny looking one... "cathedral" I think?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Absinthe said:


> .....*I am abandoning vertical hives.* But still have boxes, supers, and frames for Langstroth deep, medium and shallow. ........


I am going to say a heresy now, but being a long-hive advocate, I am now looking to experiment with the verticals.
Not the Lang stuff. No way.
The compact verticals.
There is plenty of materials posted under "Warre and other Compact Vertical Hives Forum".
Main reason for this - portability.
Long hives really are not great in terms of portability.
If the portability is a non-issue, then long hives are great.

Speaking of the Lang stuff - whatever Lang stuff I got on hand will get retro-fitted into the compact vertical setting.
So if the self-made equipment is an option and going non-standard is OK, the compact vertical hives are a valid alternative.
Handily, the 10-frame Lang boxes are easily cut, trimmed into smaller sizes, and reassembled into compact hives.

In short, vertical hives <> Lang hives. 
Vertical hive world is vast.
You probably should investigate it a bit for the possibilities for you personally, before abandoning the "vertical hives" for good.

Speaking of NC, it is very mild I understand.
You should not be probably concerned about the lateral moves or depth of your hives.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Absinthe said:


> what about the funny looking one... "cathedral" I think?


A good project for showing off your woodworking and joinery skills.


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

JWPalmer said:


> A good project for showing off your woodworking and joinery skills.


Looks like a lot of 60° angles.. I do assume it is there to solve the comb falling off problem of flat top bars? I don't quite understand the whole top bar thing, perhaps I need to dig into a few of the TB specific threads. Maybe that's an option too.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Absinthe said:


> So you remove all the supers to winter them? Those are all deeps on the bottom and solely as brood boxes? Am I understanding that correctly?
> 
> You are using QE's to keep the queen from laying in the supers? Am I getting this right?


The bottom dark blue box is the depth of deep framess, but not necessarily tradition frames. I have some medium frames in there with no bottom rail so they extend the comb as far as they can, the wood side pieces just help keep them from attaching the comb to the walls. I also have a few true topbars in there on the sides that they will fill with honey to be their stores for the summer dearth (if I am not near a cotton flow in July).

The queen excluders are so that the queen doesn't lay in the honey supers, as she has more than enough room in the bottom box as long as I make sure they are not plugging up the brood nest with honey. That is one thing in a horizontal hive that you must watch for and be comfortable manipulating. I don't mind shuffling my combs like a deck of cards if it suits what I'm trying to do, but traditional beekeepers are horrified by that idea. You just need to really understand bee biology and the season that you are working in.


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

Not sure I am following exactly. Are you suggesting something that looks like 5 frame nucs with 5 frames supers on them and so on? In my mind I am imagining a stack falling over on my head  Or are you talking about those little square things they have in UK. They kind of looked like comb honey frames. I can't remember who it was showing them, but I couldn't imagine how they would work. There were cute though


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

I am not afraid of trying anything. Seems doing all the "common knowledge" leaves me with 0 bees, or at least 0 sustainable bees. Trying something different, couldn't be much worse, could it  

In the past, I was concerned with not having more than one hive in the yard. I am just ready to take the heat, and if she gets upset with me, she will have to get over it, or I will have to give away/sell nucs or colonies as necessary to suggest that they are only temporary  (I will ask questions later about marriage counseling and psychology in some other thread, I am sure) 

But, I am willing to checkerboard the brood chamber, or do a bunch of splits as soon as there exists more than 1 frame of brood or any other as of yet "CRAZY" ideas...  Counting this season that I am trying to take off... I have what I am considering 5 years of unsuccessful beekeeping. I am willing to give it another 5 years with some kind of plan to get to a point of success, and determine that either it is something I can do, or I am willing to accept that "I gave it a good run, and it is just not something I am capable of."


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

I am not afraid of 60° angles... I made pads for our rain water barrels in that shape:


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I understand your frustration but do not grasp why you are hell bent for leather to try a hive style that requires more management, and which you seem to know little about, when you are still having difficulty with a standard Langstroth hive. It is not the box, it is the beekeeper (cold and harsh, but true). Even at 5 years in, you may want to consider getting a mentor to help you figure out where you are going wrong. Stay away from the "crazy" ideas. They are considered crazy for a reason. Follow sound beekeeping practices, feed as necessary, treat when appropriate, and you will have success no matter what kind of hive the bees live in.

BTW, I think a cathedral hive is really sharp looking. Considered building one until I realized how much effort was involved in the building process.


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

Don't get me wrong. I not really hell-bent on anything all that specific. And certainly I can't imagine anything requiring more management time than I had with verticals, especially humping them up and down the stack, busting the whole next apart every week or 10 days at a time, blowing OA once a week for 4 weeks at a time, rolling for mite counts, making syrup and constantly feeding, looking for queen cells. 

What I am "on" is asking all the questions, I feel I should have 5 years ago, when instead I simply took 1 person's word for it. 

I do get that I am, if not the world's worst bee keeper, somewhere in the top 5. If vertical is the best way to do it, by all means, I will happily do it. 

As for a mentor, I would personally love to have a mentor. Unfortunately, short of employing someone to come and do so would likely be the only way I could see having one. I am the wrong demographic, otherwise. Personal bitter cynicism aside, I can interact with people online. I can read books, I can take courses, and I can do my best to implement non-magical solutions. 

Anyway, surely point me to how to do vertical with less management than horizontal and I will look at it and try to implement that.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Absinthe said:


> ... I have what I am considering 5 years of unsuccessful beekeeping. I am willing to give it another 5 years with some kind of plan to get to a point of success, and determine that either it is something I can do, or I am willing to accept that "I gave it a good run, and it is just not something I am capable of."


I see you have decided that "the hive" is the root of all the causes and thus "the hive" must be fixed.
Not so.
A complex, multifaceted problem you have.
Fixing your "wrong" hives and making them "right" will not entirely fix your bee survivability (if fix at all).

For some reason, you never mentioned once your bee management as a whole.
Well, have fun.
I too enjoy building the bee hardware. The bees will come along.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Absinthe said:


> ....... vertical with less management than horizontal ........


Horizontal vs. vertical solve different problems.
This is not about plain and simple "less management".
Define "less management".

IF specifically want *less management*, indeed, a very large horizontal (aka Lazutin style) means less management (as in - fewer physical manipulations of the bee hardware).
Notice, less management <> bee survivabiltiy (since this is your stated goal).
But you can read about that.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

One of the best bits of beekeeping advice I've ever heard was from Michael Palmer in his 2013 'Sustainable Apiary talk' video: which was to *"use what you have".*

So that's what I'd suggest you do - not next year, not after you've read more books, or researched more hive designs - but what you do right now, using whatever you already have.

Because - it's the second week in May. That's perfect - so *get some bait boxes out*, and see if you can't catch a swarm or three. There's actually nothing to be gained by waiting until ...

*Use what you already have* - if you still have some drawn comb handy - so much the better, but even that's not essential. Just get some bees, and then post about them and their progress - or any problems - on this forum.

Bait boxes. Tomorrow,

Good luck
LJ


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

GregV said:


> I see you have decided that "the hive" is the root of all the causes and thus "the hive" must be fixed.
> Not so.
> A complex, multifaceted problem you have.
> Fixing your "wrong" hives and making them "right" will not entirely fix your bee survivability (if fix at all).
> ...


Greg, this is one of the reasons I dislike the internet, and text based forums in particular. You have completely taken away almost the opposite of what I am intending, what I have done, and what I am doing. Not to mention, misunderstood my reason for asking about the horizontals and tbh etc. Let me try to be very clear, and perhaps we can be on the same sheet of music. 

1. 5 years in and I have not gotten to what I consider a level of success. Therefore, what I am doing is wrong, either because what I was taught is wrong, or how I am interpreting it is wrong.
2. I am an excellent woodworker, and have made all my equipment save one piece because we had to have the gabled copper top roof to look pretty in the garden. There is nothing wrong with my equipment, as it meets the patent design of LL Langstroth, at least to the current 3/4" thickness of the modern recommendations. 
3. Having come to conclusion #1 and being bee-less at the moment, it seemed like a great time to tear down all the equipment, perhaps harvest the wax, maybe do some scorching and repainting. Fix any weather damage, and other wear since the stuff will be out of direct need for a while. 
4. After breaking down everything, and finding my back sore beyond effectiveness, I packed it all up in the shed, and went to the chiropractor and instead of going back to it and starting the cleaning and painting process, I started surfing the internet. I came across a small but loud bunch of folks that were shouting from the roof tops the wonders of horizontal hives for easier on your back working of hives, and their Profit was Dr Leo Sharashkin. So I went to his site and read everything he had to say, I bought his books, and read through them with an open mind, and watched everyone's videos that mentioned him and came to the conclusion that this might just be the way to go!! I sent him a few emails with a couple validation questions, and imagine that, not a reply, not even an automated reply. Nothing. So now, that I have read and absorbed all this stuff, and for the most part bought into its philosophies as truth, I started to think that rather than spend the time cleaning up and painting and whatever, all my existing equipment, I can make whatever new equipment necessary, if I wanted to follow his philosophies, and techniques. 
5. So given a few days, and weeks, I start scouring for other people doing things this way, videos and such. But mostly all I see are builds, and initial installations and so on. I do see other people using long langstroths, which, from what I am reading seem to contradict some of the original things I am seeing. So now I start asking questions. This is what has lead me back here. 

So with what I have read in his books, well someone else's books, translated to English, and one in the public domain, that was translated from French... Maybe I bought into the snake oil, but maybe what he is saying works in some way. Maybe you can do beekeeping with 2 inspections a year. Maybe you can overwinter bees better on deeper frames, maybe, some of what he is saying isn't all smoke and mirrors, to sell speaking engagements and books. But it doesn't taste right. When looking at the differences between the different formats and sizes I see where in colder areas where the flow is like this or that, this size does better, and in warmer... etc.. But then it doens't all necessarily jive. Because all I have to compare it to is what I did with double deep broodboxes without additional insulation and following the regular normal vertical "common practices". Maybe bees can be raised without chemicals, and prophylactic medications, and stuff. Maybe they do know something instinctively that lets them be bees and make their own winter nest and do this and that... So I am digging, and looking for some confirmation that somehow supports any aspect of what I just spent good folding money to buy books in hopes that they are not simply fairy tales. 

However, using OA and rolls, and feeding, and all that stuff, I can still slay bees, and repurchase them every year. Hell, I was looking forward to swapping those bottom two brood boxes....  If I can kill them doing what is "common practice" I don't suppose they could end up any deader if I try "natural" or "treatment free". 

I am all for a good conspiracy theory. So it is not hard to believe that thin walled, inset handled boxes that can be palatalized and sent to California in support of the evil big almond might not be right. So it is not a big leap to think, maybe thicker better insulated boxes might be better, and cause less stress and resource loss for both heating and cooling. And it might be wishful thinking that if I had a hive that was laid out horizontally and I didn't have to hump supers up and down, it might make it more enjoyable. I can also buy that the chemical industry wants us to buy their chemicals, and blame all the bee deaths on pests and diseases, so we continue buying their products, especially since we just made the pharmaceutical prophylaxis much harder. 

So help me to understand what the next 5 years should look like. If horizontal is not just a gimmick, then my back would love nothing more than to create a hive that allows that. If natural beekeeping or treatment free beekeeping is just "crunchy granola bull cookies" then bring on better living through chemistry! I have read stuff that basically says everything I have read up to this point is wrong. I just too the Penn State Ag Extension's course (they were letting people do for free) and I passed it with 100%, and nothing they said, isn't something I haven't already been following, because it sounds exactly like what I have been doing..... until I started reading Dr Leo's stuff. 

Do I still sound like I am reaching for the silver bullet of "If only I use the other shape things will be better?" Because that is definitely not how I am trying to come across. Do you hear the pain and confused frustration in my words?

Sorry for being so long and wordy.


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

little_john said:


> One of the best bits of beekeeping advice I've ever heard was from Michael Palmer in his 2013 'Sustainable Apiary talk' video: which was to *"use what you have".*
> 
> So that's what I'd suggest you do - not next year, not after you've read more books, or researched more hive designs - but what you do right now, using whatever you already have.
> 
> ...


Let us not put off for tomorrow what we can do today... Right. They are out there.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Absinthe said:


> Let us not put off for tomorrow what we can do today... Right. They are out there.


Good man. 

Wishing you the very best of luck - *keep us posted.*
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Absinthe said:


> Greg, this is one of the reasons I dislike the internet, and text based forums in particular. You have completely taken away almost the opposite of what I am intending, what I have done, and what I am doing. Not to mention, misunderstood my reason for asking about the horizontals and tbh etc. Let me try to be very clear, and perhaps we can be on the same sheet of music.
> ............
> 
> Sorry for being so long and wordy.


See?
Without all this context (just now, finally provided) what am I to think?

One can not ask questions and expect useful answers in return w/o providing the necessary context.




> However, using OA and rolls, and feeding, and all that stuff, I can still slay bees, and repurchase them every year.


I lost lots of bees too.
But at least I did spend any money to buy them. No books either.

Speaking of


> and their Profit was Dr Leo Sharashkin.


Keep in mind one very important point - the local feral population.
Dr. Leo Sharashkin is plugged into a well established and reasonably isolated local population of feral bees. 
He can do many things and get away with it.
If you try the same you may not expect similar results.

Speaking of Lazutin himself (RIP) - I read his very original book (free online).
He was reasonably well isolated AND he eventually was able to acquire the local bees after scouting the area for some old beekeepers
For sure Lazutin never lived under the migratory bee/package bee pressure. 
He was able to keep his bees without chemicals just fine.

Did you research into your own bee population status?
For example, if you dwell in a package bee-infested suburbia you can not do what Dr. Leo Sharashkin can in his back yard.
I know because I have tried just that. 
So, the local context is pretty much everything.


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

GregV said:


> See?
> Without all this context (just now, finally provided) what am I to think?
> 
> One can not ask questions and expect useful answers in return w/o providing the necessary context.
> ...


Yeah, I guess you are right, I was kind of hoping that I hadn't pissed away $50 on a charlatan. I am normally smarter than that about a lot of things. 

So I put out 2 hives with old comb and a bunch of LGO in a couple places. I am sure I am catching huge swarms of world class earwigs presently!  We'll see if any bees like it. So, if I get any bees this way, they will go in the Langstroths. So time for a strategy. I feel as though I am putting the cart before the horse since I am dubious about catching a swarm. Hopefully, my poor attitude will not affect their decisions where to set down. 

So, strategies for living better? In 8 frame Langstroths...


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I do not view Dr. Leo as a charlatan, rather he is a beekeeper who has figured out what works very well for him in his locale. There is much to be learned from him and others. But, that does not mean that if you do what they do to the letter your results will be the same. Instead, you need to follow the time honored techniques of successful beekeepers and gradually incorporate different ideas that may work for you, keeping in mind that they probably won't. 
Let's get some bees in those boxes and take it from there.


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

JWPalmer said:


> I do not view Dr. Leo as a charlatan, rather he is a beekeeper who has figured out what works very well for him in his locale. There is much to be leaned from him and others. But, that does not mean that if you do what they do to the letter your results will be the same. Instead, you need to follow the time honored techniques of successful beekeepers and gradually incorporate different ideas that may work for you, keeping in mind that they probably won't.
> Let's get some bees in those boxes and take it from there.


Okay, I will reserve judgement on him for a while. I still feel a little "taken" but that is on me. 

Let's see how the swarm season goes, and I will figure out what to do from there.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Absinthe said:


> Okay, I will reserve judgement on him for a while. I still feel a little "taken" but that is on me.
> 
> Let's see how the swarm season goes, and I will figure out what to do from there.


Leo Sharashkin's web site got me started - Thanks to him for that.

Took me a while to understand I can NOT follow his methods at 100% - this was up to me to learn.
I wish he made it very clear in his materials.
Well, I understand he needs to earn his living somehow too. 



> So, strategies for living better? In 8 frame Langstroths...


Don't be afraid to try 6-frame, 7-frame, 8-frame Lang since these will only require incremental changes to your current hardware.
If I did not build my stuff around modified Layens frame per Sharashkin, I'd try these above as the next logical step.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Absinthe said:


> ....
> So I put out 2 hives with old comb and a bunch of LGO in a couple places. I am sure I am catching huge swarms of world class earwigs presently! .


You will catch.
Do realize you have a huge advantage already - well used hives with old combs are the swarm catching monsters.
Just don't overdo the LGO (may actually chase the bees away).

My very first season I made a bunch of brand new shiny traps and had never seen a bee once. 
There must be no bees around I thought.
Well, it turned out the old, half-rotten equipment was the swarm catching key in my area. 
That took some learning.


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

GregV said:


> Don't be afraid to try 6-frame, 7-frame, 8-frame Lang since these will only require incremental changes to your current hardware.
> If I did not build my stuff around modified Layens frame per Sharashkin, I'd try these above as the next logical step.


Short of different spacing, or building nucs, I am not sure what 6 or 7 frames even means.


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

GregV said:


> You will catch.
> Do realize you have a huge advantage already - well used hives with old combs are the swarm catching monsters.
> Just don't overdo the LGO (may actually chase the bees away).
> 
> ...


I wish I had shared your confidence . But I will wait and see. Hopefully I didn't overdo the LGO, I guess I can take the bag out completely, and open them up overnight to let it evap off, but how would I know if it is too much?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Absinthe said:


> Short of different spacing, or building nucs, I am not sure what 6 or 7 frames even means.


Search BeeSource.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Absinthe said:


> I wish I had shared your confidence . But I will wait and see. Hopefully I didn't overdo the LGO, I guess I can take the bag out completely, and open them up overnight to let it evap off, but how would I know if it is too much?


I don't know what "a bunch of LGO" means, but technically implies as if a lot (probably too much).

2-3 drops of LGO is enough, especially in well used equipment.


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

Well I think it was 38° overnight, and it is still windy as all-get-out and cold (North Carolina Cold  ) so I am pretty sure no one is coming to visit today. Probably going to be similar all week, so I need to ignore them for a while and not let them drive me nuts. 

But the wood shop is calling... still not sure which horizontal format to do.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Absinthe said:


> .......
> 
> But the wood shop is calling... still not sure which horizontal format to do.


Sounds like you have the time and an itch.

Clearly, few practical questions need answers (which you kinda need to know after 5 years of doing this).

For example - your current traps are in Lang format.
Having all the equipment on hand it is reasonable to set it all out and use for trapping.

Next, it only makes sense to make it so that you easily transfer frames with a swarm from a trap into your horizontal hive.
So why create yourself unnecessary headaches and go for a "classic" KTBH so that even a trivial frame move between hives becomes a major project.
Both Lang and Layens style long hives support easy cross-hive frame transfers.

One should simply play forward several typical scenarios as you will move forward and see what horizontal hive layout will support those scenarios.
Anyway, you should know all of this. I don't need to be telling.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Absinthe,

Hi for what its worth, I can relate. I liked the Dr Leo message as well, seemed a hard bloke to get on the phone or respond, (strike 1) I also signed up for the 1 week seminar, the cost, plus trip cost, plus hotel for the week had me cancel. I instead bough both books, worth the $ IMO. I am a Lang background person, So I built the Double deep lang in the plan section of one of Dr Leos books. I did winter Russians in it last winter it has the biggest bunch of bees this spring. I'll have 2 for this winter.
I did make it with 2x4 stud walls and 3.5 inch of insulation, but for me in Mich. it seemed to work. Since you have the lang stuff, they can be swarm traps, NUCs and starter hives. That way you can leverage from what you have.
I would think where you are 2x4 on the flat for a 1.5 cavity either stuffed with insulation or fitted with 1.5 inch foam board would be enough for the cold temps there. As well I made mine 4 foot long. the next ones will be 5 to 6 feet with a coloney in each end, or 3 foot long. 4 foot is a bit much for 1 and a bit slim for 2 colonies IMO.
Build if you enjoy it, but the bee keeping needs some attention, figure out what takes your bees out, queen failure, starve, mites, etc then work to fix that part. In what ever hive the keeping part needs be understood.

Soon I am taking the 30 frames of bees out of my long lang and making 6 NUCs, clean it out , reposition, firm up the base, and put a NUC back into each end a month later. 

I have a bunch of 5 frame NUCs, a bunch of 8 Frame hives and a bunch of 10 Frame hives. All frames are interchangeable, normal deep frames from Dadant.
I have made almost all the bottoms tops and hive bodies.

Each hive size has pros and cons, mostly around portability and moving. The 5 frame easy to move, the long lang not moveable, so the whole spectrum.

Jump in build one, if you catch a swarm move it into the new hive for winter, see how it does. do read the treatment threads, and strive for improvement.
I do not go into a hive unless I have a need, some Hives that is 2 or 3 time a year, not sure under what scenario 1 time a week would be the need, queen less ness maybe. You mentioned box swap once in your "discussions" the Layens does not have box swap (top to bottom) so... is it necessary?? I was a proponent of brood nest integrity, prior to reading about the layens frame now even more. Waste of time for the bees to rearrange IMO.

stay on the trail

GG


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

Yes, I have eliminated TBH from the running as it is way too different. There is something elegant to me about the Layens but for the life of me I can't put my finger on it. I really don't believe I will be happy with the Lazutin, or double deep long lang because, that just seems like a ****-awful lot of frame to manipulate at any one time. So between a 19 frame Laynes and a 26 frame single deep long Lang is where I am hanging. Although one other consideration was to make either one use some dimensions that would allow it to be supered by the 8 frame equipment. This was something I had not previously considered, but in the few examples I was shown, "seemed" really cool. 

If I just stick with vertical stuff, I think I will be making a bunch of nucs and see if I can make some bees. But this is the fallback if I catch some bees before getting started on making horizontal equipment.  

BTW, if anyone cares, this new UI sucks. At least in my opinion for whatever that's worth.


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## Absinthe (Feb 26, 2016)

Box swap was relative to the Lang 2 deep brood chamber. Box swap being to bring the bees back to the bottom and the abandoned comb from the winter up on top of them. That made sense to me, but it never happened because by the time they should have been taking their cleansing flight, they were actually swarming. They had never moved up into the top deep, but instead had brought all the honey resources in and among it and what should have been an empty spring brood nest was honey bound. (A little soapy water at that point and I could have had a very interesting huge harvest, but I thought I could save the colony) We had a ridiculous winter, it snowed almost 1 whole day. I don't think it ever got so cold that the bees weren't flying and foraging all winter long. And people's annuals never died off, so I think they thought they were in FL instead of NC. So when they swarmed the first time, I was seriously caught off guard because it hadn't been above 50° enough that I felt comfortable going in. I did my level best to try to straighten them out, clear them some place for the new queen to lay. Moved the resources up, and the brood down and together, but they cast again before I would have even believed they should have hatched a queen, and about 3 days later they were getting robbed and I saw no sign of the previous colony, they must have just joined forces and went home with them. I missed some things, that I guess I should have caught, and perhaps with a few more years experience I would have known better. I meant I was looking forward to the box swap, but never got to that point before everything went to hell this season. 

The description of the Layens spring inspection, sounds similar to the box swap in the moving to the other side, and replacing the old entrance end side comb, and so forth has a similar feel to the box swap. But I digress. I have said that I am the slayer of bees, but that is probably not fair. I am the propagator of likely many colonies somewhere other than in my hive  I only actually killed them one year, and that was high mite counts and no treatment. So maybe they should have died. But between Formic Acid pads and Oxalic Acid vapors I kept they alive well enough to mostly cast and abscond.


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## tenleez (Jan 23, 2016)

Wow! The only difference btw your beek experience and mine is that when I decided to get into beekeeping and took the local county class, my takeaway was that there was a lot to know. I spent the next year reading anything I could get my hands on. I started with Christy Hemenway’s “The Thinking Beekeeper”. I liked her approach of actually “caring” about the little creatures. After reading a number of other books, I got my hands on Fedor Lazutin’s “Keeping Bees With a Smile”. Something about the mountains of research he did and the icons of the field he quoted couldn’t be ignored. After reading that I knew I didn’t want to use Langs. But with the local beek community, that left me on the inside looking out. No one shared my thoughts and ideas on it. No one.

I had to stumble my was through this. I guess I consider myself an “experimental” beekeeper at this point. The first year I kept bees I built a 2”-thick walled Lazutin hive as well as a double-walled TBH. I’m all ready to go and I email Dr. Leo with a few questions and he writes back and tells me the Lazutin hive was designed for Zone 4 in the Kaluga region of Russia and the kind of natural wilderness in that area was what made the bees bring in all that nectar and pollen and fill those hives. I live in Zone 5 in a thickly settled area. Oooops. Dr. Leo suggested I go with a Layens hive because it can be managed the same as a Lazutin but without all that interior space my bees would be hard-pressed to fill. What do they say? – All beekeeping is local! (NOTE: 1 package was very healthy, the other was very unhealthy). It wasn’t the hives that caused my 2 packages of bees to die out, it was the mites. First year on the books – no survivors.

Dr. Leo stressed in his email to me that I must work with local survivor stock. Our State is not known for its wilderness. So the next year I decide to set out traps and catch some bees. Second year on the books – the beekeeping year that wasn’t. 

At this point I’m beginning to think I’ll never be able to keep bees. I succumbed to pressure to at least try a Lang hive. So I purchased a package of VSH bees. It started out well but the queen apparently was poorly mated and the hive never made it through the winter. Third year on the books – another lost hive.

The next year (2019) was a year to remember. I still had the Lang from the previous year and put a package of bees in it I got through the club. Three weeks later (mid-May) I get 4 swarm calls. I did have a few swarm boxes, but after the 3rd call, I passed it off to another beek. Now I’m overwhelmed! I scrambled to knock down the TBH and repurpose it into a 2” thick-walled horizontal hive BUT decided to make it 14” deep. Remember what Lazutin said that bees build from the top down but overwinter from the bottom up – I wanted to give them more running room for those cold winter days. Then I decided to try a truncated Lazutin hive (why not?). I built a 2” thick walled 10-frame Lang hive that would house 18” deep Lang frames (2 deeps zip-tied together). I sat it on top of a standard medium Lang body and used it as a German Bottom Box. Reason: Those bottom boards are an open invitation for bugs, rain, etc. The bees have to travel to get to their inner sanctum. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OheDOkQi7G8
Then I purchased a 5-frame nuc box to see if I could overwinter bees in it. It was interesting to see how well the swarm bees did compared to the package bees. They out-performed them on every level. Dr. Leo was right. I invested in an OA vaporizer – because the mites from the package bees were off the charts. I treated all hives once a week for 8 weeks in a row to get them under control. I went into winter with 4 hives. Fourth year on the books – all 4 colonies survived! 

(NOTE: I didn’t expect the package bees to survive – still shocked about that)

I want to build a Layens hive but don’t like the idea of a narrower frame length. I’m thinking of building another HH but with the same depth as a Layens. Just zip tie a deep and a medium together to give you a Layen’s depth with a Lang length. Now your frames are all standard and interchangeable. I believe if you live in an area with snowy, icy cold winters – depth of hive is extremely important. Giving the bees a depth of honeycomb they can work their way up throughout the winter without having to cross open space is huge. I want to revamp my Lazutin hive. I can always use a divider board and put two colonies in it.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

tenleez said:


> Wow! The only difference btw your beek experience and mine is that when I decided to get into beekeeping and took the local county class, my takeaway was that there was a lot to know. I spent the next year reading anything I could get my hands on. I started with Christy Hemenway’s “The Thinking Beekeeper”. I liked her approach of actually “caring” about the little creatures. After reading a number of other books, I got my hands on Fedor Lazutin’s “Keeping Bees With a Smile”. Something about the mountains of research he did and the icons of the field he quoted couldn’t be ignored. After reading that I knew I didn’t want to use Langs. But with the local beek community, that left me on the inside looking out. No one shared my thoughts and ideas on it. No one.
> 
> I had to stumble my was through this. I guess I consider myself an “experimental” beekeeper at this point. The first year I kept bees I built a 2”-thick walled Lazutin hive as well as a double-walled TBH. I’m all ready to go and I email Dr. Leo with a few questions and he writes back and tells me the Lazutin hive was designed for Zone 4 in the Kaluga region of Russia and the kind of natural wilderness in that area was what made the bees bring in all that nectar and pollen and fill those hives. I live in Zone 5 in a thickly settled area. Oooops. Dr. Leo suggested I go with a Layens hive because it can be managed the same as a Lazutin but without all that interior space my bees would be hard-pressed to fill. What do they say? – All beekeeping is local! (NOTE: 1 package was very healthy, the other was very unhealthy). It wasn’t the hives that caused my 2 packages of bees to die out, it was the mites. First year on the books – no survivors.
> 
> ...


The "class" approach is fine , But IMO the hands on is better.
Yes I have seen the local stock "seems" to be better acclimated.
IMO here is what happens , one orders bees, some swarm, any that make the winter in a tree or wall, are some what acclimated, these first year survivors (10%) cross and a second generation is swarmed out (30%) maybe survive, etc until there is a bee that can deal with the local conditions.
So I put all my dead outs out a swarm traps, the "early" ones are not from packages, they are either someones hive swarming or a feral swarm.
These early swarm can be "winter tested" then do splits from the best of the best.

I read a book from the early 1900s stating bees travel up the comb 1mm per day in cold weather, for me here in Mich that is 18-22 inches, I add/nadir a medium under my hive in the fall for an igloo effect and that seems to work. I actually put medium frames in a deep, to also have a 3 inch air space at the bottom. (I use the wet medium frames post extraction)
For you it is what ever you find works.
And yes the mite thingy cancels every thing IMO your OA VAp is going to help knock down the mite so you can have healthy winter bees hatch out in the fall. If they cannot fly and are crawlers they do not shivver well either.

good luck
GG


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## tenleez (Jan 23, 2016)

The first 2 swarms I caught were from a feral colony that had been living in an old oak tree and had built up quite a colony. How many years they were there, I don't know. But they sure hit-the-ground-running when hived. The third swarm was about 5lbs - so couldn't have been someone's mismanaged first-year package. A few miles from it was a queen-rearing apiary so it likely came from there. There are some package suppliers who put quality first, but too many don't. 

Classes have a purpose but they're not a panacea for what's needed to successfully keep bees. Someone did a SARS study out of VA stating that 80% of package bees (from the south) fail. That's a staggering number. I offered a team beekeeping group last year for people graduating the county class to try to help those who don't know what live bees in a hive looks like. It was a great experience for everyone who participated because like you said, "Hands on is better". I think first year beeks should work as a team in small groups: share the bees, the hive, the hive management, etc. It keeps costs down and gives them the "hands on" no class can teach.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

tenleez said:


> The first 2 swarms I caught were from a feral colony that had been living in an old oak tree and had built up quite a colony. How many years they were there, I don't know. But they sure hit-the-ground-running when hived. The third swarm was about 5lbs - so couldn't have been someone's mismanaged first-year package. A few miles from it was a queen-rearing apiary so it likely came from there. There are some package suppliers who put quality first, but too many don't.
> 
> Classes have a purpose but they're not a panacea for what's needed to successfully keep bees. Someone did a SARS study out of VA stating that 80% of package bees (from the south) fail. That's a staggering number. I offered a team beekeeping group last year for people graduating the county class to try to help those who don't know what live bees in a hive looks like. It was a great experience for everyone who participated because like you said, "Hands on is better". I think first year beeks should work as a team in small groups: share the bees, the hive, the hive management, etc. It keeps costs down and gives them the "hands on" no class can teach.


As far as 80% fail, depending on the "window" that could be true, like for 12 months I would tend to agree. If fail means repurchase, IMO the incentive is not where it needs to be.
the group experience is a great idea, many newbies do not know other newbies, could offer a sign up area. Could even do it at your place in small groups. 12 newbies, 3 or 4 packages, or 2 packages and 2 NUCs, class nite in groups of 3, offer if they can get them thru the first winter, then they get a split the next spring for extra credit. 

If it wasn't for my day job and the farm I have for weekends, these ideas could have legs.....
GG


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## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

Absinthe said:


> For what it's worth I am in Zone 7B North Carolina about 30 miles from Charlotte.
> 
> I am taking a season off to prepare, so I have no colonies at present.
> I am abandoning vertical hives. But still have boxes, supers, and frames for Langstroth deep, medium and shallow. And I have a 2 frame extractor.
> ...


I am in zone 7b, central Arkansas and I have one horizontal hive ( along with verticals) and it has 30 regular deep frames. It is one of my best hives. I get some honey, usually 7-10 frames, but I take frames from this colony that I need for nucs and splits or just to help another colony, and for this it is extremely valuable. It is made very close to the design at horizontal hives with the gable roof(the gable roof not really needed). It has an access underneath for sheet pans. I love it, but then again I love my vertical hives, especially my 8-frames. No wait, I really love my nucs. Anyway, it has never swarmed, with a little help, and is the the easiest to manage, the only problem I've had is my overzealous queens will lay from end to end, I had to rig an excluder which I keep at #18. You won't be disappointed. I make increases from my own bees and requeen from the best queen.


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## Cariboospeed (Sep 12, 2018)

So.... My backyard being hillside, unstacking, stacking and packing around Lang supers and gear gets old in a hurry, as well as insulating and uninsulating, and having 60,000 raging bees roaring around every inspection or treatment. That's why I made some horizontals. All are 3/8 ply with 1.5" styrofoam sandwiched. Foam bottoms, and insulated tops/roof/lid. You get it, fully insulated. A couple divider boards, one insulated.

First one is simple, 32 deep frames long, board covers.














Second one got a bit fancier. I wanted more capacity, so I made it to take med supers on top, and still able to close the lid. It holds 32 deep frames long, and two med supers as well. 














The third, I went a bit far, I think. A double deep, 52 deep frames. 








They're sooooo much easier to deal with the bees. All three are splits from my normal Lang hives, with new queens, but the bees are so calm, and easy to deal with frame by frame instead of removing a top, an inner cover, then a super, and another super, then digging around while 10,000 foragers are confused that their entrance has vanished...
I can leave stuff in each hive under the lid. A tool, note pad, queen grabber, spare frames, bundle of zip ties. Stuff I don't have to remember to carry around in my pockets. Having a nice big platform to work on, set tools, a camera, a pulled out frames, way nicer to work on. 
My preference is to dribble OA, or use mite away, and will soon try Hop Guard strips. Having only one level to deal with is nice. Exposing only a few bees at a time, and the lids tip up from behind so the foragers just continue to use the normal entrances, makes for no defensiveness or confusion. Haven't used a smoker at all on them. Another thing I don't have to pack around!
Strategy for honey harvest...I placed the hives where I can drive up to them in my tractor. Will make 30 frame holding box for the bucket, arrange the frames I want to take, apply fume board, remove, take frames, replace with empty frames, drive away. No intention of lifting more than one frame in each hand.

Might not be suitable for a commercial operation, but for the casual beekeeper, that only has a few hives to manage, I don't think you can beat the convenience of a horizontal. 

So far, I like the second design the best.


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## Cariboospeed (Sep 12, 2018)

Just some pics.







Double deep frames.







A single deep, and med/deep long hive.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Cariboospeed said:


> Just some pics.
> View attachment 55957
> 
> Double deep frames.
> ...


Thanks for sharing.
Horizontals can be forgiving on the slopes; yes.


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