# Received conflicting advice on going treatment free



## SRBrooks (Jun 24, 2012)

I was brand-new to beekeeping a year ago. I had read everything I could possibly get my hands on, and developed a mindset from that. Much will depend on your goals, I guess, and your attitude toward "the girls" in general. Don't let anyone else tell you the right way to go. 

There is no "Standard proven method." My god, has someone not been watching the newscasts or reading the paper lately about the plight of bees? 

So if encouragement is what you want re: treatment free, I guess I could give you some. It works GREAT for me. 

Check out Michael Bush. Check out Solomon Parker.

You will find many opinions on this site. Follow what your gut tells you. Experience is going to be a great teacher, though! Best of luck to you!

Sondra


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...maybe someone will guarantee a specific winter survival rate if you follow their "proven" advice?

deknow


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

I am sure my hives would have had a much higher winter survival rate if I had treated for mites. I consider it growing pains. It will take time to find genetics (through queens, local breeding or swarms) that can survive with pests. Perhaps others will get lucky and find it right off the line, but I doubt it. If you are going to start TX free, plan on having a crash in your hives, if it never comes so much the better.


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## jlsheehan (Jul 26, 2012)

i'm a year old beekeeper, so take this with the requisite cup of salt, but I don't think there's virtually ANY area where you'll more conflicting advice than on the issue of treatment. as far as I can tell, there isn't even a consensus about what a treatment IS -- is a screened bottom board a treatment? how about brood breaks or drone traps? how about sugar dusting? formic acid? and so on. So you really are going to have go with your gut, and experiment as best you can. If you haven't found it, Randy Oliver's scientific beekeeping website has been really useful for my thoughts on this issue, since he's someone who clearly wants to go treatment free, but who actually wants to test claims made for various soft treatment options. Michael Bush too. At the end of the day, though, they are your bees, and you'll have to figure out things by trial and error (lots of errors, if I'm any judge!).


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

SRBrooks said:


> There is no "Standard proven method."


Look to those with live colonies of bees Spring after Spring, those with losses in the single digits most years and ask them what they do. 
Seems as proven as any of these prophets out there preaching but never telling you about their survival or loss rate.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

They may be your bees, but only in ownership. In the treatment free sense they are the last guys bees. If the nucs you are buying are treated you have a long road ahead. That does not mean stay off that road. You do need to watch for potholes, treated or not. You need to know what is happening to your bees either way.
If you can get treatment free queens you may move several evolutions ahead on treatment free.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

If you get bees that were treated before, fret not.. the only one that lives very long is the queen... the rest are just transients.... and do not pass on any of the treatment issues.......

But treatment free is a great goal.. and from what I see and hear possible, just be prepared for high losses, and realize its part of the leaning curve...... I myself love the idea, but the praticality of it is not always economicly right for me. I try to stay away from treatments. but last year I had to change that plan, or loose 80% of my hives...... (EFB)


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

deknow said:


> ...maybe someone will guarantee a specific winter survival rate if you follow their "proven" advice?
> 
> deknow


I would, provided I could personally supervise to see it is done PROPERLY.


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## jeffnmo (Mar 16, 2013)

I'm new this year also and at first was scared to death of treatment free but after much reading and listening to many beeks I'm not any longer. I'll hope for and do my best and prepare for the worst. And if the worst happens I'll dust myself off take the knowledge Ive assembled and try again. I won't poison my girls. Just try and find the right combinations so they can do what they do naturally. Jeff


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## Michelle Pensa Branco (May 22, 2012)

I worried about this too and received similar advice - I'm only a year in, so it may well still prove to be sound advice! I don't know that I do entirely qualify as "treatment-free" as I did experiment a few things (like sugar dusting for example). My personal rule was to not put anything into the hives that I wouldn't be willing to be put in my children's mouths (I have lower standards for my safety I guess!) and I think that's how it's going to stay. It's a hobby for me and I am willing to absorb the losses if they happen.


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## HiveMind (Jul 6, 2010)

After reading every book in my public library system cover to cover, buying some others and spending a lot of time here I concluded the most agreeable approach to me was treatment-free and foundationless. The first year I caught 3 local feral swarms. 1 absconded. The second got robbed out due to my stupid feeding idea. The last made it half way through the winter then starved. All had some degree of cross-comb.

I learned a wealth from all this. Last year I caught 7 swarms. Combined 2 weak ones in the Fall. And all 6 hives made it through a cold winter (for my locale). All are very strong now. I split the 3 strongest this past weekend and caught 2 local swarms so far. My bee yard now has 6 established, strong treatment-free, cross-comb-free foundation less hives, 3 splits and 2 new swarms. 

If you're the type who needs to lean heavily on a support group you will want your practices to be compatible with theirs. If you're willing to rough it on your own private learning curve to pursue your own goals then choose your path and stay the course. Treatment free will work. The folks here are very helpful.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

HiveMind said:


> After reading every book in my public library system cover to cover, buying some others and spending a lot of time here I concluded the most agreeable approach to me was treatment-free


A lot of good advice in this first sentence that I think would help a lot of people out on these decisions. HiveMind boasts that he read every book he could get his hands on as well as doing a lot of reading on beesource. Non stop research on the subject of beekeeping. AFTER a pile of time spent reading and researching he concluded the most agreeable approach *TO HIM* was treatment-free. I get the impression that a lot of people come to the TF forums looking to pick sides and get people on the band wagon of saying one form of beekeeping is better then another when in reality HiveMind succinctly summarized in his first sentence how beekeeping should be approached. Lots of studying and learning followed by an individual choice on how you personally intend to manage your colonies. Please don't buy into the labels and titles of natural beekeeper, treatment free beekeeper, chemical free beekeeper and just keep bees the way you feel most comfortable.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Learn to keep bees effectively first then go treatment free. Best advice I ever received. Save some bees.


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## Benthic (May 1, 2011)

HiveMind said:


> After reading every book in my public library system cover to cover, buying some others and spending a lot of time here I concluded the most agreeable approach to me was treatment-free and foundationless.
> <snip>


This is pretty much exactly what I did. I read everything I could find for about 9 months, and then started two hives from nucs in May of last year. Because of my chosen path, I had foundationless frames ready to go, and I got bees from The Fat Beeman. I have screened bottom boards, and I put FBM hive beetle traps in each hive. I fed them in order to get them started. That's it. I've used no medications, essential oils or sugar dusting.

Both hives made it thought the winter and are doing well today. There are SHB in my hives, but the bees seem to be keeping them in check. So far I've lost no comb to SHB damage. The only evidence of varroa I've seen is when one hive threw half a dozen pupae out on the ground. I inspected them and found varroa. But when I inspect the hive I see no varroa on the bees. I've even taken photos of frames filled with brood and nurse bees so I could blow them up and study them, and I still don't see any mites.

So that's been my experience. I realize that I'm a sample of one, and one winter isn't a lengthy track record. I seem to recall being told that if I can make it through my second winter that will be the REAL accomplishment. I suspect that getting bees from someone who does not treat was a key factor, but that's just supposition on my part.

Brian


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Benthic said:


> I realize that I'm a sample of one, and one winter isn't a lengthy track record.


Don't sell yourself short Brian, every journey begins with the first step and it sounds like yours is heading in the direction you would like it to be.


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## GregP (Apr 4, 2013)

RiodeLobo said:


> I am sure my hives would have had a much higher winter survival rate if I had treated for mites. I consider it growing pains. It will take time to find genetics (through queens, local breeding or swarms) that can survive with pests. Perhaps others will get lucky and find it right off the line, but I doubt it. If you are going to start TX free, plan on having a crash in your hives, if it never comes so much the better.


I'm not so sure anymore, I treat all my colonies for mites. The ones closer into me wintered far better than the ones further east. Which tells me this winters loses had more to do with location than treatment.


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## Futhark Farm (Apr 15, 2013)

Another newbie here. After all my reading, I decided to go treatment free. I still managed to make a mistake in going with just one hive to start. I figured I'd start slow and work up, but two would have allowed for better comparison. See, I'm learning already.

I'm getting package bees because I don't feel comfortable going out on swarm calls right out of the gate. I was basically told to suck it up when I mentioned this elsewhere, but I don't think anyone should start out too far over their head. That'd be like taking your first horseback ride at Santa Anita, in full jockey colors. I'm also not so sure people calling for removal services would appreciate my neophyte status. 

I'll install my one package on foundationless. I don't expect a honey harvest and will in fact be happy to have a viable hive at season's end. 

So far, has anything I've said struck anyone reading as too delusional?


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## HiveMind (Jul 6, 2010)

Futhark Farm said:


> I'll install my one package on foundationless. I don't expect a honey harvest and will in fact be happy to have a viable hive at season's end.
> 
> So far, has anything I've said struck anyone reading as too delusional?


You're expectations are spot on. Make sure your hive is perfectly level and cut your frame's end bars down to 1 1/4" and you will have a good year. Also, be sure to keep enough sugar on your newly installed package until they stop taking it to increase your odds of having success with your package this year. 

How many pounds of bees in the package you're getting?


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## Futhark Farm (Apr 15, 2013)

Three pounds. Is that too small to get a good start?


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## HiveMind (Jul 6, 2010)

Futhark Farm said:


> Three pounds. Is that too small to get a good start?



Three pounds is what I would consider the lower limit. You should be fine though as long as they are a healthy package.


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## jeffnmo (Mar 16, 2013)

Sounds like you have the right thought process going and a good attitude. Follow what HiveMind said and you'll be ok. Installed my first 2 pkgs. 2 weeks ago and by feeding them with sugar syrup they are off to a good start. Goo luck.


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## Origonhives (Jun 13, 2012)

I started my first hives for "4H" in the late fifties. The only problem I remember was the possibility foul brood. We didn't do any treatment. My biggest worry where I lived were bears. I sold my hives when I went to college. Last year I got back into bees with my daughter. After a lot of reading both books and information on the internet we decided to go with local swarms and treatment free. Michael Bush influenced me the most with his writings. If I were a commercial beekeeper with a thousand hives I might have to do things differently. We have three healthy hives, two top bar and a langstroth all started from captured local swarms. We harvested some honey but not a lot. Being the first year we wanted them to build. They wintered over strong and healthy with no feeding. They are now starting the new season with foundation less frames full of empty comb and lots of blooms. We captured a swarm on tax day from a lilac bush. I don't plan to buy bees or queens. I feel catching local swarms will supply me with healthy stock.


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## Origonhives (Jun 13, 2012)

I started my first hives for "4H" in the late fifties. The only problem I remember was the possibility foul brood. We didn't do any treatment. My biggest worry where I lived were bears. I sold my hives when I went to college. Last year I got back into bees with my daughter. After a lot of reading both books and information on the internet we decided to go with local swarms and treatment free. Michael Bush influenced me the most with his writings. If I were a commercial beekeeper with a thousand hives I might have to do things differently. We have three healthy hives, two top bar and a langstroth all started from captured local swarms. We harvested some honey but not a lot. Being the first year we wanted them to build. They wintered over strong and healthy with no feeding. They are now starting the new season with foundation-less frames full of empty comb and lots of blooms. We captured a swarm on tax day from a lilac bush. I don't plan to buy bees or queens. I feel catching local swarms will supply me with healthy stock.


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## jdawdy (May 22, 2012)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that things like mite resistance and longevity of the queen stock are more important factors to consider, than whether or not to treat. Even the strongest, healthiest, best bees can get sick, just like Olympic athletes are not immune to the flu. 

That said, however, I don't subscribe to the cook-book method of prophylactically treating bees. My thoughts are, do the absolute minimum, keep a close eye 
on the hives and mite counts, and when you see a problem looming, THEN treat it aggressively. 

Personally, I don't treat for anything. There are 2 reasons for this. One is we have very little varroa/SHB/AFB/EFB in this region. The other is because I want to get a sense for the conditions my bees exist under. I want to see for myself what is going on- in other words, if I treat, I wont be able to tell whether it's the treatment that keeps the hives alive, or if they would have been fine without it. I'm a little leery of beekeepers who say things like "If you dont treat, you wont have any hive comes spring". I'm willing to lose my hives to put that claim to the test, and also to see just how quickly they succumb to pests/pathogens, what the symptoms are, how well they react, etc. To me, thats what being a beginning beekeeper is all about- the learning process. When a local beekeeper sold me a couple of what he called "rough around the edges" feral nucs that ended up being queenless, I was thrilled. I got to learn to requeen, do newspaper combines, deal with a laying worker, and still managed to get one hive through the winter. I learned a ton from those "rough" bees, and wouldn't have traded them for anything.

So, my thought is don't treat. Sit back and see what happens. Then treat any problems that crop up, and see how well it works. Expect a loss rate in your hives, but chalk it up to a learning experience.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

I'm a 3rd year TF guy who had heavy winter losses this year. Down from 41 hives to about 20 strong colonies left, with a few more stragglers. 

Now, I'm sure the major reason for my losses was related to our drought and lack of fall forage and pollen (and some beginner mistakes), but I'm also sure mites played a roll in some of my colonies not being as strong as they should have been.

I'm commited to TF for at least another couple of years, but in my experience TF can be a tough road in the beginning. 

Like Karla said in an earlier post, the beekeeping learning curve is pretty steep and the best advice I would give you emulates her's, and that is to get a good local mentor who has had success at keeping bees the way you think you would like too, and follow everything they say to a tee. There are TF folks in your area.

Good luck,

Don Semple
Overland Park, KS


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

There are two basic ways to go treatment free.
First, get some bees and don't treat. Breed from the survivors year after year, and after massive losses, you'll have treatment free bees.

Second, buy packages or queens from a reputable breeder that has a proven track record of treatment free bees. They're out there, and they advertise. Then you can with confidence go treatment free from the get-go. This is what I've done, and have been completely treatment free since re-starting in bees in 2006. Losses range from a consistent low of 6% to a high of 18%.

fwiw
Regards,
Steven


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's much easier to START on small or natural cell size than to convert later. It's much easier to NOT contaminate your comb than to replace it all later. It's much easier to get and maintain a natural system from the start than to try to recover from all the damage you do by treating.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm

When I was treating for Varroa I lost all of them. Several times. I have had MUCH more success not treating them and keeping them in a natural system on natural comb.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

Well I didn't read everyone's response to this thread. I too am in my second year now and went treatment free. My decision was made long before I came to the site. I went foundationless and treatment free which would not be defined in this forum because I decided to give my bees some good bee tea which I found online that contained thyme oil which was fine with me. Over the winter here in Alabama I lost no bees and hive strong hives. Take care of your girls the way u feel comfortable and have fun.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

lilosbornefarm said:


> We are new to beekeeping this year and will be bringing our nucs home in the next month.


Good start. They should be local. If you're getting packages from the south, chances are you're gonna have a bad time.




lilosbornefarm said:


> I was told by a beekeeper recently that while it's a lovely thought to go treatment free and "natural" that we should do standard proven methods first and then experiment with treatment free.


First of all, keeping bees is not natural. Let's just get that out of the way right at the beginning. These "standard proven methods" are anything but. They're younger than I am and probably younger than you are. In fact, they're so standard and proven that they keep wearing out after a few years and quit working. The oldest of the mite treatments, Apistan, has been around for 20 years. It doesn't work any more. It didn't work very well to begin with. Think about how good an idea it is to feed an insecticide to and insect to try to kill an insect on the insect. I'm being facetious, but only a little bit.




lilosbornefarm said:


> That most newbies that try a natural approach have too many die and get frustrated.


And most of those newbees start with one hive and a southern package. Don't do it.




lilosbornefarm said:


> In all my reading and research it seems like nothing is solid proven so why not go treatment free and raise more resistant bees?


That's true. Look at past results from the Bee Informed National Survey. The best treatment reduces mortality from 38% to 28%. Most of them do practically nothing, and that includes non-chemical and "organic" methods.




lilosbornefarm said:


> Seems like people lose just as many bees treating with the works so he completely confused me saying to do all the proven treatments.


Right. People defend their ideas. That's a given. I'm doing it right now. Look at the numbers. Make your own determination.




lilosbornefarm said:


> I guess I'm just looking for a little encouragement to go the treatment free way we were planning or trying to understand what he meant.


In one week, I will have been keeping bees treatment free for 10 years. It can be done. And I save a whole lot of time and effort not buying treatments, worrying about treating, and getting stressed when treatments don't work. It's simple back to basics beekeeping working on the Expansion Model. Outgrow the mites and pretty soon other mechanisms will kick in.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Solomon Parker said:


> Good start. They should be local. If you're getting packages from the south, chances are you're gonna have a bad time.
> 
> Agree, so now what? How many packages come out of the south each year? 500K 1,000K? How to convert those to treatment free? Anybody can work on regression. What else. What is your recommendation for the masses? Local mated queens, virgins? Does it require a frame of bees to innoculate the hive? Not argueing with you, it would be nice if everbody could start with local nucs. Not there yet.
> 
> For those starting with a southern package because it is a choice of that or nothing, what is your suggested course of conversion?


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

It's probably too late this year, but it is possible to find local bees, and to find packages that are somewhat better than the mass-produced southern packages.

The best advice is to join as many local clubs as you can. That's where I found my first local nuc, from a guy who produces a few just for fun, with local mutts and open mated well-fed queens. And through the club I could have bought others from larger-scale but still fairly local guys. Because I was interested in small cell bees, I also bought a package from Wolf Creek. These are not strictly treatment free, but the treatments are at least limited to stuff like essential oils, so those bees are probably less damaged than many packages. There are other suppliers you can get decent packages and queens from.

But even if all you can get when you decide to start keeping bees is a southern mass-produced package, it's still worthwhile to do it, in my opinion. Bees are bees, and you will learn a great deal, even if your bees die. And you can learn the techniques you'll need when you get better bees. You can have them draw out good natural comb, for example, and if they don't make it, you'll have good comb next spring. You can make splits, you can see what brood breaks will do for you, and so on. It's cheap education.

I'm one of those people who always thought "Gee, wouldn't it be nice to keep some bees," but never got around to it until fairly late in life. Now I wish I'd done it much sooner, because even if I had, there's so much to learn about keeping bees that no one can possibly learn it all. But isn't that the greatest thing about the little bugs?


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Start with a package from a southern breeder who sells bonafide treatment free bees...they're out there, just do it.
Regards,
Steven


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Saltybee said:


> Solomon Parker said:
> 
> 
> > Good start. They should be local. If you're getting packages from the south, chances are you're gonna have a bad time.
> ...


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

gmcharlie said:


> Saltybee said:
> 
> 
> > FYI, just short of 1 million packages per year, pretty close to equal between eastcoast and west coast at about 425k a year with a few thousand out of TX and other spots.
> ...


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Saltybee said:


> How to convert those to treatment free?


The quickest way is simply not to treat. However, that will likely result in high losses. Or you could treat them, and that will likely result in high losses too. The fact that those bees are not acclimated to your weather and conditions will make things worse. Year after year after year of newbees with dead hives proves it.




Saltybee said:


> For those starting with a southern package because it is a choice of that or nothing, what is your suggested course of conversion?


Nothing is not the only option available. That's a farce. There have been (and currently are) many many small time beekeepers who have started by catching swarms. And from what I heard at the Big Bee Buzz this year, they are almost all doing quite well, not treating, with topbar hives, with regular hives, Warre etc. I cannot recommend enough, healthy local bees. Swarms are almost always healthy local bees.

If you do want to do conversion or whatever you want to call it, go ahead. It will cost you more if you start with unfit bees.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Solomon, with all due respect the comment "unfit bees" is hardly well targeted or correct. Many Many many of those hives do just as good as captured wild swarms. and "acclimated for the area" is silly also.... the turnover of bees in the hive handle that issue quickly. You could comment on queen types with some merit, and also point out your bringing the problems of the package supplier home with you, But I for example have doubled my number of hives almost every year, and my bees do just fine from packages. I only have 1 swarm hive. generaly as a rule I don't have time to even mess with swarms, and those 5-6 I do a year have fared much worse than my packages.

No way to do the math, but were everyone waiting to start beekeeping was waiting on swarms, 90% would never get bees......

So gut your package, get it started, if you like do your small cell, or whatever, get a nice queen from somebody like solomon, research VHS ... just get moving. don't be one of those guys sitting on the sidelines.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

gmcharlie said:


> No way to do the math, but were everyone waiting to start beekeeping was waiting on swarms, 90% would never get bees......


In my experience, I do not find this to be true. Results will vary, but there has not been a year that I have made a reasonable effort that I did not catch at least one swarm. Had I also answered swarm calls, I could have gotten many more. Catching swarms is a viable option for most everybody and that 90% figure is wildly off.

Did you treat those packages?


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Every year I sell over 300 packages, plus what I use. On a hot year I get a dozen swarm calls... Lots of people would compete for those few swarms.... 


Generaly I try not to treat. Last year I had some EFB I treated for, and going into winter I did treat 90% of my hives for mites.n The year before I didn't treat at all, and I also have 3 breeder hives that are untreated.

I also steal all extractable honey from everything but breeders, and ran about 50% losses... very pleased with that result given the amount of food left for them, and the really late fall mite treatment.

None of my breeder hives had issues.

Keep in mind i am all for treatment free!, just not fond of all the negitivity about packages, or those who do use treatments. Packages have been and are a reliable source for bees, for close to a million hives a year. since what 1920 or so???
While I am here, I am running a experiment this summer, testing southern production queens against "suvivor queens" do you have 10 you would be able to sell me in May? (not looking for donations) they will be balanced and weighed and tested for mites monthly.


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## dnichols (May 28, 2012)

I had four hives I decided to experiment with last year that were packages. Yes not a good sample...but anyways... I split four hives over the course of the year into 12 over-wintering nucs. I have not treated in the past but decided to treat 6 and leave 6 alone. I lost all but two hives. Both hives that survived from this ill-fated experiment were not treated and are gang-busting into spring. Probably just luck of the draw but I will be breeding from these not using treatments on any of my hives this year.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

My opinion is that if you are in an area where you can catch wild swarms that are from naturally swarming, healthy bee colonies, then try the treatment free small cell method.

If these are unavailable to you, that's a sign that your bees are going to have big problems if you don't treat.

My feeling is that, on another forum which shall remain unnamed, many beginners start out idealistically thinking that they will be treatment free with their new package bees. At first they ask many questions, then after awhile they are not heard from again. Draw your own conclusions.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

gmcharlie said:


> Every year I sell over 300 packages


So you're not buying southern packages?




gmcharlie said:


> Generaly I try not to treat....... I did treat 90% of my hives........i am all for treatment free!, just not fond of ... those who do use treatments.


Wha???




gmcharlie said:


> do you have 10 you would be able to sell me in May?


Maybe, we'll see. Gotta fill orders first. Running late this year due to weather. I couldn't trust those results though, balancing. Why do that?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Gino45 said:


> My opinion is that if you are in an area where you can catch wild swarms that are from naturally swarming, healthy bee colonies, then try the treatment free small cell method.
> 
> If these are unavailable to you, that's a sign that your bees are going to have big problems if you don't treat.


Actually that's a pretty good analysis Gino, I hadn't looked at it like that before but there's probably a lot of wisdom in that statement.



gmcharlie said:


> While I am here, I am running a experiment this summer, testing southern production queens against "suvivor queens" do you have 10 you would be able to sell me in May? (not looking for donations) they will be balanced and weighed and tested for mites monthly.


That will be a very interesting experiment, it's so hard to get proper numbers on survivor queens just by browsing posts on the chat site.

Please keep us updated on this. What I would really like to know is how survivor queens go when moved to a different location.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Gino45 said:


> My feeling is that, on another forum which shall remain unnamed, many beginners start out idealistically thinking that they will be treatment free with their new package bees. At first they ask many questions, then after awhile they are not heard from again. Draw your own conclusions.


My conclusion is that most of these new beekeepers, like most beginning hobbyists (no matter what hobby) have not educated themselves very well and have unrealistic expectations (again, not unusual in beginners, no matter the pursuit.) 

I don't expect my first bees to survive without any difficulties; in fact, I'm going to nuc those colonies, in the expectation that they will need to be replaced. If I were advising a new beekeeper, I'd tell them that it was unlikely that they will have no troubles if they don't treat, but that the odds of trouble-free beekeeping are only a little better if they *do *treat. Treatment appears to not be a sustainable longterm practice, in my opinion, so we might as well try to find alternatives.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

As with anything, you will get conflicting opinions from experts and novice alike. Everyone likes to think they are right and at times relay only what fits their pre-drawn conclusions. . One thing that you can be certain of is that there will be plenty of bad advice on any forum like this since everyone can be a self proclaimed expert (myself included).

Treatment free is an admirable goal. If that is what you have chosen to do then you need to pick your path after reading the best supporting data available. Just be sure to understand that beekeeping is an agricultural pursuit. As such it is just as dependent on environmental and biological conditions and cycles as any other. Be prepared for setbacks and forward surges. What you think worked swell one year may end in disaster the next. 

Whichever method is chosen, it will take diligent management to achieve consistent success. And even then success is what you measure by, not what others may measure by. Define your goal and strive towards it, live and learn from your mistakes and then overcome them the next go round.

Last thing is to be very careful of whose advice you take and then be sure to get the whole story of their experience and not the condensed sanitized version.

Good luck.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I *suspect* that part of the key to survival of treatment free bees is access to quality forage. I watched a blueberry field being cleared of rocks the other day and my thought was that there will be forage for bees for about three weeks and then nothing. So honey bees won't be establishing themselves there any time soon. Is the clearing just insurance for migratory beeks? I imagine the ability to place imported pollinators where the grower wants them is part of the goal, but only a small one. Other perceived grower benefits include increased ease for pruning, burning, pesticide/herbicide application, mechanized harvesting. Costs not considered should include native pollinator activity. Granted this area is hurting economically and these growers are making an investment, but I scratch my head when thinking of long term sustainability.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

What would you consider quality forage? Tell me what I have here that allows me to do this. I am interested in all aspects that make this possible.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

To me quality forage is forage that will meet the bee's nutritional needs growing season (and year) round - it is diverse, consisting mostly of naturally occurring plants and weeds that are not treated with anything. This is not to say that adding to the available forage is a bad thing - I planted six tulip poplars this past week - but the additions are minor parts. I've nothing against some one planting a bit of borage or a field of buckwheat, but my concern is that the bees have access to what they need beyond those blooming periods. My wife and I argue (argue is probably strong) over my efforts at keeping our blueberry field open - it was last commercially harvested roughly 10 years ago. The field is transitioning away from blueberries to lots of rosa rugosa and goldenrod/aster in the fall. It is hard to find a honey bee on the blueberries when they are in blossom, yet pollination seems to happen ok for our needs. I hope to unwrap this next week and see how the bees fared. In a perfect world the bees would be able to gather all the stores they need from their natural environs - but I don't live in heaven and fed much 2:1 in the fall.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

The last several years, my dearth functionally begins in late June. The rain has stopped and all blooming plants (the only thing blooming is clover, maybe bull thistle in small amounts) have died off. Goldenrod appears briefly in the fall yielding maybe two frames in each hive going into winter. How would you characterize this nutritionally?


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

My *guess* is that nutritionally is a bit thin. As I am fond of saying all beekeeping is local, and I am by no means an expert on nutrition. My property abuts a tidal river so even when the summer dearth arrives there are things blooming along the river. Now I ought to find out if the bees find those plants attractive!

I wrote in a private letter not long ago that beekeepers have a choice to make - either do the pollination circuit and take chances with what your bees are exposed to or control (own/lease) the land that your bees forage on to make a honey crop. Lease payments need to be for more than a gallon or two of honey and I've no idea if the American consumer is prepared to pay the real cost of production. "The times they are a changing" sang Mr. Dylan, and I think concern/realization over the nature of our food supply is just beginning.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

Well, I am in a place with good quality forage when the moisture is adequate; however, there comes a time most every year when the drought kicks in and the bees wind down in the fall.

In the old days (pre mite and pre beetle), the population would just keep slowly declining until some rains arrived to bring some plants into bloom. The problem here is mostly lack of pollen. The lack of food didn't cause disease problems.

After the mites had been here for 2-3 years, the bees started having problems with lots of chalkbrood, some sac brood, and dwv. And then the untreated hives would suddenly collapse and often abscond. This had nothing to do with quality of forage.

Had I let them take care of it themselves, at this point I would have no bees. Also, fwiw, the feral bees have disappeared and I haven't seen a healthy swarm of bees for several years. 
So, imo, there's more to it than poor pasture. Granted, those bees which forage in insecticide laced pasture have a whole different set of problems. Maybe Monsanto can create some pesticide resistant bees to replace them! TIC


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Yes I resell packages, and also sell local nucs.... Well aware of the weather issues! we had snow flurries yesterday!....

The balanceing will be at the start of the trial only, to be sure they all start the same as close as possible. all will have drawn comb, brood, and empty space.


as for trying not to treat, that is my goal. but I am not going to lose hives in the middle of honey production to do that. Normaly I would remove queens for mites, and ignore EFB until it clears on its own. last year neathier of those options worked well enough.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> That will be a very interesting experiment, it's so hard to get proper numbers on survivor queens just by browsing posts on the chat site.
> 
> Please keep us updated on this. What I would really like to know is how survivor queens go when moved to a different location.


Well the intent was to keep them "local" I had one supplier whos an hour north of me,......... Its interesting to me we hear all this hype about breeds, and survivor stock and on and on...... and very little actual data.........
Measurements to be wax production, honey production, mite issues and winter survibility and buildup.... partly for my own info, partly because over the last years I have gotten a lot of really poor info from this site and others..... Without details, lets just say a lot of the treatment free theories are just that......
I do belive genetics can be a huge factor, but at the moment I seen no evidence of it. Yes there are a few bigger guys doing it within there systems, and a lot of little guys claiming this and that...... I honestly belive at this point there will be little to no differrences in any catagory.
I think a good queen is a good queen no mater where she comes from. and I think if you take a batch of any 10 some will do great, and some will fail. so my goal is to establish a basline. and to do that I have set up a protocol, and purchased a new scale, and planed the time to do it.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

There's a treatment free beekeeper in northern Indiana who has an interesting view of this. His yards (he has about 150 hives, I believe) are in patches of woods in the middle of corn and soybean country. His approach is to build up his hives until they are enormous, and he gets huge yields from an area that many conventional beekeepers might think doesn't have enough forage. He does not feed, at all. His winter loss rate for the last several years has averaged 8 percent, which is far better than most treated operations. He puts a lot of emphasis on local stock derived from swarms; when most of his stock was from packages, his loss rate was 50 to 90 percent. He buys no outside stock now, and all his increase comes from splits. 

His name is Tim Ives and he has several videos up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXESkk7ZhXs


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

gmcharlie said:


> I do belive genetics can be a huge factor, but at the moment I seen no evidence of it. Yes there are a few bigger guys doing it within there systems, and a lot of little guys claiming this and that...... I honestly belive at this point there will be little to no differrences in any catagory.


Well it will be interesting to put it to the test.

According to data given to the national bee survey, annual losses for TF beekeepers are 38%. So as most TF beekeepers are small beekeepers with well under 100 hives, the reality for most of them if they had say, 10 hives, would be an annual loss of around 4 of the 10. But best I can read Solomon, he lost 1 hive out of 27, far better than average. So is it climate, or genetics? You trialling 10 of his survivor queens may help answer that. 

I'm still torn on this issue. My own TF bees, at this point, are not going as well as I had hoped. The question of whether you have to go local, or not, is something I need to learn more about.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

StevenG said:


> buy packages or queens from a reputable breeder that has a proven track record of treatment free bees. They're out there, and they advertise. Then you can with confidence go treatment free from the get-go. This is what I've done, and have been completely treatment free since re-starting in bees in 2006.


Steven,

If you don't mind telling, since you've been successful, where did you get your bees from?


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Heaflaw, I don't mind telling... I've been telling for 7 years now....and I do not mind repeating myself. Appreciate you asking, for the benefit of some new readers.
My most successful bees have been from B. Weaver and Purvis. I've tried Russians, and MnHyg but they don't produce and survive as well. 

I judge my success by whether they make it from one year to the next, and does my honey harvest average beat the Missouri state average. The answer to both questions is yes.

Once again, there are two ways to go treatment free. Buy from a reputable treatment free breeder, either packages or queens. (I've done both, successfully.) Or, buy any type of bee, and go treatment free, then breed from your survivors, if any. For small folks like me, the reality it that it is easier, cheaper, and a heck of a lot more fun to let someone else pay those costs, and we reap the benefits with the bees.
Kindest regards,
Steven


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