# Should I treat?



## Bsweet (Apr 9, 2010)

No matter what we say or would do it falls on you and what you want.
Are you 
Chemical free= NO CHEMICALS IN MY HIVES, how about powder sugar drop?
Treatment free= DO NOTHING the bees will sort it out or they won't
At any cost= Do what ever and hope it works and may be get honey

If your not sure what you want why not treat 2 hive with chems and 2 with less harsh options like powder sugar and let one fend for itself. Jim


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Some people split their hives and let the hives make their own new queens in order to break the mite breeding cycle and crash the mite population down. Supposedly it can be possible to make some honey at the same time.
Here is one method of utilizing such methods:
http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/NucManagement.pdf
http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/OTS.pdf
Interesting to read about!
Another way to keep mite populations down is to cull out capped drone brood. I keep a specific dedicated frame for drone brood in each hive.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I guess I don't keep up on treatments anymore... What are MAQS? If I had counts in the 80s this time of year, I might cut all the drone comb out and throw it away and see what that does to the counts.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Mite Away Quick Strips....I am told it is safe to use with supers on.

I will not vote on this poll because Bsweet is correct, your call.


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

MAQS= Mite Away Quick Strips. http://miteaway.com/html/what_is_maqs.php

The so called "new thing." Basically a simplified application of formic acid. I'll try to work out the drone brood if the weather ever cooperates with my schedule. I guess I could try all the IPM measures first to see the results, and then base my decision on the results. I just thought I was over the treatment threshold. It would also be a good learning oppurtunity for me as well. As of now, all of the IPM measures are a little intimidating to me, but there is only one way to fix that. I guess that's why the MAQS are so appealing, they are quick and easy...but not necasarily natural. I'll keep giving it thought. I won't be able to apply it for several more days anyway. Hopefully, that wil be enough time for you guys to talk me out of it...or not. It's just MY new challenge to overcome. I just need a little help is all. Perhaps an intervention.

Thanks, John


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

NasalSponge said:


> I will not vote on this poll because Bsweet is correct, your call.


It's still a matter of respect. I'm reconizing more of you guys on here and am establishing a personal respect for each of you based on what I've read in your posts. I relate myself more to, and look up differently to each one of you based on what you write. It's hard making decisions at this experience level not knowing what the outcome may be. Therefore, I put more trust in those more experienced and those I respect more. Your opinions DO make a difference because I look up to you guys.

Thanks, John


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## Jeff G (May 12, 2010)

I was getting counts that high in the fall and treated with Mite a way the old formulaion. I got a drop of over 1500 mites in 3 days and 3000 by the end. The studies I read say that 3000 mites in your hive is about the threshold. You are at the begining of the mite cycle and your mite population will peak in August or September. If you see further increases and they make it til fall, then you will probably loose the hives over winter. Its hard to keep dead bees. I'll vote and my vote is treat and work on getting better genetics worked into your program with local survivor queens. good luck.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

John I've voted you treat. Two reasons:-

Formic acid will not leave any long term residue in the hive. It is a volatile chemical that evaporates and will in time return to natural levels. And yes, there is a natural level, formic acid is present in small quantities in natural untreated honey.

Second reason, I'm picking that each hive is important to you, you don't want to loose even one of them.

There's the reasons but I'm going to add some comments there are some negatives to consider also. An argument against treating is that by allowing mites to kill hives you support survival of the fittest. But that's also an argument FOR treating, as it now appears some complete genetic lines have been lost due to mite predation. Another thing is that formic acid can be hard on queens. I've used formic acid straight, but according to what I've read MAQS is a more gentle release, easier on the bees product. I don't know, but suspect, that the MAQS may not be fully effective unless used in ideal conditions, as others have said, test afterwards and consider drone brood harvesting if still any mites.

So there's many pros and cons, my 2 cents.


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## josethayil (Jul 17, 2008)

I would say treat with something and once the mite levels are low replace the queens with VSH or survival stocks which are available locally. This will help to keep the mite levels low later. 

Just a thought.......


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## indypartridge (Nov 18, 2004)

As others have said, this one is your call.

If your gut is saying not to treat, but at the same time you're concerned about high mite levels, then start with powdered sugar treatments, and/or removing drone brood and/or making splits to break the brood cycle.

I've been reasonably successful without having used anything stronger than powdered sugar, but if I run into a situation where that's not working, I'll probably try something like Apiguard/MAQS/HopGuard/OA rather than lose my colonies to varroa. To me, that would be preferable to buying new bees each spring.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

I have read that if you remove/split the queens into nucs or pinch the queens around July 5th and allow the main hives to make their own new queens, the mite breeding cycle will be broken and the mite population will crash before going into Fall. The new queen should be able to keep ahead of the mites for winter. You could also try to overwinter those nucs if you keep them small. Or not.


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## Rob Renneker (Aug 7, 2006)

Do whatever you have to do to keep varroa at bay. I know it's been said time and time again, but if you keep varroa counts low you are going to eliminate most of your problems. Personally, if I had high counts I would use the MAQS unless you have another plan for knocking them down.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

The MAQS is not an unnatural chemical. Formic acid is already present in honey, one of the reasons "bugs" can't live in honey. The second year is when Varroa are going to "make you, or break you." With high Varroa counts you can either treat or lose the hive. Your choice. Many say to let them die, survival of the fittest, blah, blah, blah.... My opinion is dead bees don't develop resistance to anything, but if you keep them alive they will eventually develop resistance, just maybe not in your lifetime. Since I'm in this business to make a living I might have views other than than you, but I take care of my bees so they can take care of me. We use screened bottom boards, drone frames and most importantly, Hygenic Italian bees. It works! So far we've only had to treat sparingly in the fall and most of our hives show little sign of Varroa through the rest of the year.


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## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

I had your same situation abt a month ago. (my thread is probably on pg 3 or 4). I had a count of 250 in 24 hrs. From the info i gathered that was way too many. I freaked out...bought MAQS and treated. If you believe the research it will not harm honey or bees. I believe the research until.... It either effects the honey and/or bees or it does not. If our research cannot come to the right conclusion on the safety of this product we are all in trouble.
Just from my observation it did not alter the bees behavior at all.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Formic acid will pretty much wipe out the microbes necessary for fermenting pollen and crowding out pathogens. Given a choice of what to have in my honey, I'd prefer a little formic acid. But do I want to do that to the hive?


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## NCSUbeeKEEPER (Feb 28, 2011)

I voted treat bc 80 is kinda high for this time of year, but I think you would probably be okay to wait until your main flow is over-- if you're worried about MAQS tainting your honey, that is. (I'm aware that it's advertised to be safe with supers on, but I'm a skeptic).


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Your bees are an investment of time and money why let them die? Some good advice here....figure out how to address the mites then work on getting some queens with better genetics. The mites will not go away on their own and the numbers will increase exponentially from here....your choice but if they were mine I would treat....dead bees dont provide any honey....thats a fact.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

If you don't knock down varroa while you have high counts, then your bees are likely to succumb to viruses and other pathogens in their weakened state.

I wouldn't characterize MAQS/formic acid as a treatment that leaves residues that will build up and contaminate your hives. Since you've already purchased them, and you do have a high mite count, feel free to use the MAQS. You re obviously outside of your 'comfort zone' w/ the current situation.
Why feel anxious when it only takes 15 minutes to solve the immediate problem?

How you mitigate the mite problem is then up to you and your available time and resources.


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

Ok. I will treat this weekend. I'll do my inspections Saturday and start the treatment Sunday. I do wonder though... How would the treatment effect a hive that just swarmed? From what I understand, the application causes most of the bees to congregate outside the hive fro the first 24 hours or so. Is this going to effect the colonies' queen condition? I forsee several possibilities... They swarmed right after the cell was capped... They swarmed as the virgin emerged... They swarmed after she mated. These are the swarm conditions I've heard different people talk about. A capped queen cell is considered brood, right? So, if this product causes a temperary brood mortality, than it could be fatal to my queen cell as well, right? 

If she is a virgin and is forced out of the hive, could this cause another swarm or cause her to otherwise get lost outside the hive? 
If she is already mated, then she should be fine, right?

My new beek instincts say not to treat this hive for a few more weeks. But I guess this could be changed based on what I find in my inspection.

Thanks, for all your reasonings! You guys really helped me a lot. I sure appreciate it.

Thanks, John


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

fish_stix said:


> The MAQS is not an unnatural chemical. Formic acid is already present in honey, one of the reasons "bugs" can't live in honey.


...there is also nothing unnatural about hydrogen peroxide (produced by every cell in your body), hydrochloric acid (in your digestive system), or e. coli (also in your digestive system)...none of these are good to drink, despite being "natural".
Although the pH of honey is low enough to be an unsuitable environment for many microbes, it is the hygroscopic nature of honey (lack of moisture) that is the main reason "bugs" can't live in honey. According to one study that measured these things:
http://www.apimondia.com/apiacta/articles/2005/donders_1.pdf
... honey from bees untreated with formic had about 49 ppm (those that were treated showed almost 150 ppm ...which is the lower limit at which the formic can be tasted in the honey).
I'm rusty on my chemistry, but i don't think that 49 ppm of formic is going to have a large effect on lowering the pH of honey



> My opinion is dead bees don't develop resistance to anything, but if you keep them alive they will eventually develop resistance


...can you discuss a mechanism by which this will happen? How about an example of where such a thing has happened in other species? What you propose here is the exact opposite of "natural selection", which is a model that we know works.

deknow


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

At present my girls are treatment free. Last year I was using West hive beetle traps but this year, they're so strong, I haven't seen the first SHB (famous last words!). I am lucky in that I have absolutely no varroa problem. My 48-hr drop count hasn't been above 5 in the past 3 years. . .this without treatment! I don't know why. They've built up a resistance maybe? Of course this past week I've brought in a swarm from another town, so Lord knows what they brought in with them. . .we'll see.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

I don't use formic acid mite killers, but if I did I would never treat with it during a queen cell/virgin queen period. Not if I was depending on that new queen to develop nicely, anyway.


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## Ektor (Jun 18, 2010)

Amazing to me how natural hives in the wild are able to survive without any human intervention. Do these hives produce industrial quanities of honey? Maybe not. Are they subject to CCD? I don’t know I’m a new beek who votes for none treatment. But, my lively hood is not based upon raising bee’s.


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## Katharina (May 2, 2011)

The mite quick away strips are scary to me too. The warning label alone with its statement of disposable gloves and respirator makes me wonder. One one end they say it is ok to put it into the hive and leave it there, on the other hand all those warnings. We have a commercial beekeeper come to our club and speak about mites and other problems. He stated that he used to use the harsh stuff 10 years ago, but stopped. He is now using more natural methods and has a huge success rate. For mites he uses Sucrocide, a safe product that can be used for organic productions. It is a sugar water soap mix in simple terms (Sucrose Octanoate Ester). You spray it onto the frames and the bees wash themselves for 3 hours. He treats twice per year and has no mite issue at all.
https://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=26_52&products_id=714
I'm still new to beekeeping, my first year, but I will try that route and see what it does for me. I can always reach out for the harsh stuff, if I have too.


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## BKDave (Apr 17, 2011)

As a new beek, I don't know enough to render an opinion. I will say that I would do something, just not sure what and that it should fit your comfort level. The instructors at my bee class have talked about trying a vegetable oil fog to control their mites. I would think that would be a pretty non-evasive course of action. Have to make sure I can get to that class to see how that works. Good luck, Dave.


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## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

If you are seeing that mite drop for all of your hives then I vote treat half (2 or 3) and see what happens.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If you are a hobbyist treating with chemicals is something you should decide before you get your bees and then stick to your guns. You can't go back and forth. You are either chemical free or you are not.

If your goal is to make money than run with the crowd that makes money.

If your goal is to raise bees without chemicals than do what those people do that are not using chemicals. I think the important thing here is to be willing to accept some setbacks. But keep trying until you succeed.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

There is such an animal as Integrated Pest Management (IPM). You can treat your hives in an Environmentally Responsible manner by reducing/eliminating the use of the offending pesticides.

MAQS (that contain formic acid and disintegrate on their own) used as a stop gap do fit the IPM philosophy.

While most beekeepers can readily employ IPM, the 'treatment free' regime is likely outside the comfort zone of most people. The Bond Protocol (live and let die) is simply too much to ask.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

John as your hive has just swarmed, I wouldn't treat till after it has a laying queen. As you have correctly surmised, using formic acid prior to this could cause several different problems.

Having said that though I would do it as soon as possible after she is laying, preferably before any brood is sealed. Because at this time there will be little / no sealed brood in the hive so the mites will be out where they are more easily killed.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Wouldn't it make more sense to treat and requeen with resistant queens like VSH?

He already knows that his current stock aren't resistant. If he keeps them, he is going to have to continue using the MAQS.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Use chems responsible according to the label. As a IPM beek, I treat. I treat because it gives me a fall back position--live bees. That are alive because I the beek intervened and was a good steward and gave my bees a helping hand. The treatment free folks have a let live or die attitude that leaves no fall back position for their colonies-just dead bees. They must have very deep pockets. I treat because my investment is great and replacing bees cost time, money and a lost crop for that season. I treat because because treatment for a colony of bees cost me two pounds of honey per colony. Dead colonies dont produce and cost at a minimum 55 pounds of honey to replace the bees if I bought the packages. It just boils down to this>. You want to keep bees as a money making venture? Do You want to play with bees because you are in it for the fun. Either way is O.K. Adjust your management accordingly. TK


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## Tohya (Apr 6, 2011)

I voted to treat. With a high mite count, its apparent that the bees are unable to control the mites on their own and your choice is to treat or let them, most likely, die.

That said, if the hive in question swarmed recently, that all by itself will knock the mite population down. So you don't need to treat right away. The break in the brood cycle bought you some time to think about what you want to do.


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## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

deknow states that you don't drink hydrochloric acid or hydrogen peroxide. Hydrochloric acid in pill form is used to treat certain stomach problems and hydrogen peroxide is used as a gargle for certain mouth disorders. Chemicals are used safely all the time to treat humans and other animals ...why not insects?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

oldforte said:


> Chemicals are used safely all the time to treat humans and other animals ...why not insects?


Most chemicals are used on humans one at a time and preferably when they are sick. Treating the whole colony means every bee gets treated whether they are sick or not. If you were forced to take heart medication because your neighbor needed it how long do you think the human race would last?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I think he's asking about mite treatment, not heart attacks.

Maybe he should ask each bee individually if it has mites and then treat or not treat accordingly.

Or the alternative would be to just treat the hive. Regardless of how long the human race would last if they were wrongly administered heart medication.


I've seen a few of these types of posts, trying to compare treating bees for mites, with some hypothetical drug or chemical misuse on humans. Most of these analogies are rather silly. Bees need to be treated as a hive. Even humans get treated as a group sometimes, such as, for example, mass immunization campaigns, which do not work unless a big enough proportion of the population is treated, even though most of them are not sick at the time. 

Best plan, think of bees as a hive. They are not people.


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## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

A better analogy might be fumigating one's house to get rid of roaches. Not something I'd really want to do but if the roaches got bad enough I might consider it.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Actually that's a pretty good analogy. Nobody really wants chemicals in their house just like nobody really wants to treat their bees. But sometimes a situation may warrant it.


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## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Most chemicals are used on humans one at a time and preferably when they are sick. Treating the whole colony means every bee gets treated whether they are sick or not. If you were forced to take heart medication because your neighbor needed it how long do you think the human race would last?


If you were exposed to cholera, typhoid, smallpox, or DPT would you consider treatment? Whether you were sick or not?


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

I am in a similar situation, see treatment free mite treatment thread in treatment free. I did a sugar roll and got 4 mites. Below IPM treatment threshold but high for early in season. I was going to wait and see what happened to mite levels. Colony has/had a Russian queen. The hive became queenless. I don't think it swarmed, it was a small swarm if it did. I decided to let them requeen themsleves and see if break in brood cycle reduced mite numbers. I was planning on waiting until a little closer to peak nectar flow in hopes the reduced brood would increase honey production. 

We have had so much rain the past few weeks the bees haven't had a lot of opportunities to forage. I'm also concerned about virgin queens getting a chance to go on mating flights!

Beekeeping is agriculture regardless of the scale, the weather will impact what the bees can do.

Tom


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

So I treated today with the MAQS. I treated my largest 3 hives and did not treat the 3 smaller hives I started from swarms. The bees did not like the strips when I placed them on the hives. They made a loud buzzing and dissapeared quickly into the frames. They were applied as the directions recommended keeping in mind the temperature as well as the minimal ventilation requirements. I've been watching them since the application and the first thing I've noticed is the activity levels of these hives at the entrance. These hives are normally very active outside the entrances and now there is very little. I've heard they like to move outside the hive like a bad case of bearding but they have not yet. If they do so, I'll take some pics and keep you posted. After a couple weeks I'll do another mite drop count and post those results.

Later, John


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Sounds good!

Why not do a mite drop count now, so you can have the satisfaction of seeing all the dead mites? Ought to be heaps of them.

Also, if not treating all the hives, be aware the treated ones can get re-infested over time, from the other ones.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

John V said:


> Your opinions DO make a difference because I look up to you guys.
> 
> Thanks, John


Well John, here's something you can count on, I believe, and if others disagree, they will say so. No matter what you do, it probably won't turn out the way you hoped or expected. It's somewhat of a crap shoot, treating for varroa.

But, there are alternatives to MAQS or other common treatmen t materials. Michael Bush mentioned cutting out drone comb and rechecking mite drops. Roland goes thru his hives every 15 days and smashes drone cells. Some people dust w/ powdered sugar. Some people use Oxalyc acid. Others use Tactic Homemade strips.

So, in your situation, I would recommend researching the alternative methods of Varroa control and decide on a coiurse of action. You already did take action by using MAQS. Now we can see if you get good results. I'm looking forward to that report.


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## johnblagg (May 15, 2011)

I f was me and I was afriad that the colony would die if I did not treat then the formic acid treatment would be used ...and actually formic acid is used by insects in nature ..namely ants ...and even the birds will seek out a ant nest and roll around in them to get the ants to spray them down with it to kill mites and lice ...


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> Why not do a mite drop count now, so you can have the satisfaction of seeing all the dead mites?


I did actually put my cleaned sticky boards back in to see what the initial drop looks like, however I am more interested in what the count will be after the brood cycles through. I will give you an update in the next day or two on what the sticky boards look like now just for the heck of it.

Later, John


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

W/ all the different mite controls I have used or seen used, the greateast mite drop occurs in the first 24 hours. And maybe even sooner.

I recall the first Apistan strips that were installed in NY. Only Inspectors were authorized to apply them. Bkprs couldn't buy them. W/ a cpl of inches of snow on the ground we installed strips in single astory cols w/ sticky boards on the bottom boards of two hives in each yard. After we installed all of the strips in the first yd, in less than a half hour, we checked the first sticky board and saw hundreds of mites on the paper. Quite impressive.

I bet you would see the same in your hives w/ the MAQS.


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## stripstrike (Aug 29, 2009)

John V said:


> I did actually put my cleaned sticky boards back in to see what the initial drop looks like, however I am more interested in what the count will be after the brood cycles through. I will give you an update in the next day or two on what the sticky boards look like now just for the heck of it.
> 
> Later, John


 I used MAQS a week ago and put the boards right in to see how bad (or good) the drop was. I was shocked at the amount of varroa after 24 hours. I knew I haad an issue with my daily counts but the formic acid REALLY shakes them out of the hive, and fast. I plan to cleaan the boards and put them back in next week and see what my daily and 48 hour counts are compared towhat they were before treating. I got concerened this year after counting 6 mites in one drone cell and MAQS seemed like a good option to apilife var which I used last year. Good luck.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Actually that's a pretty good analogy. Nobody really wants chemicals in their house just like nobody really wants to treat their bees.

Probably is a good analogy. I would never use pesticide in my house, and I would never use pesticides in my bee hives. But some people would.


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

So the 24hr. drop has averaged about 10-15 mites per square inch. There were still live mites squirming around in the oil so I'm guessing they are still dropping. I put the sticky boards back in to check again in the next few days to see if I can tell when they stop dropping. 

This is the activity today. Fairly normal. May be twice as much bearding than usual but today was a bit warmer than usual. I saw orientation flights from all three hives today and haven't seen any signs of dead bees being brought out of the hive.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/showmejohnspics/5784366804/

The hive on the right swarmed early in the season and has built back up to be my strongest (ironically, it was my weakest out of winter). The hive on the left was my strongest overwintered hive and has swarmed twice just over two weeks ago (and were caught but hived seperately). The hive in the middle was a fairly strong split I made from the left hive in Mid-March. With this being said, I just know the mite cycle would have been broken but my counts were still high enough to warrant a treatment. After the treatment is over, I will began IPM measures and hopefully won't have to treat again. 

Later, John


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

deknow said:


> ...
> ...can you discuss a mechanism by which this will happen? How about an example of where such a thing has happened in other species? What you propose here is the exact opposite of "natural selection", which is a model that we know works.
> 
> deknow


 Wouldn't it be sad if every time we got stung we died, but we don't and most of us "develop resistance" to the venom. Same goes with the common cold, flu, etc., etc...so much for "natural selection".....


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

HONEYDEW said:


> Wouldn't it be sad if every time we got stung we died, but we don't and most of us "develop resistance" to the venom. Same goes with the common cold, flu, etc., etc...so much for "natural selection".....


I don't understand your comment. If you take an antibiotic to combat a disease you don't build up resistance to the disease. The bacteria may build up a resistance to the antibiotic that you are taking and then it becomes useless. This is the problem with treatments of all kinds.

Natural selection occurs when you don't treat not when you do treat.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

So you are saying that if you are infected, it is better to *not* take antibiotics and just live with infections such as strep, staph, pneumonia, Lyme disease, 
Legionella*, *and tuberculosis? 

All the time hoping that your body builds up a natural resistance before you die from the infection?

What if you had a young child with Meningitis or Sepsis? Just let them ride it out?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> So you are saying that if you are infected, it is better to *not* take antibiotics and just live with infections such as strep, staph, pneumonia, Lyme disease,
> Legionella*, *and tuberculosis?
> 
> All the time hoping that your body builds up a natural resistance before you die from the infection?
> ...


Well now you are trying to compare humans to bees.

OK lets take your scenario. That would mean that if anyone in your family gets sick you all have to take the medication, just like when you treat the bees. How about village ... any one in your village gets sick you all have to take the medication. Where do you think that would lead?

Now if you look at any third world country / area that doesn't have modern medicine you would see that it does NOT curb the population growth. In fact most populations grow to the point that are limited by wars and famine.

I got two questions for you:
Do you think the human race would still exist if it weren't for modern medicine?
Do you think the human race might not still be here in the future if we keep expanding the pill factories?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I agree that you do not treat the entire local population of humans if an individual becomes ill. I thought you were talking about humans:


> If *you* take an antibiotic to combat a disease *you* don't build up resistance to the disease. The bacteria may build up a resistance to the antibiotic that _*you*_ are taking and then it becomes useless.


. Sorry if I misunderstood. 



> Do you think the human race would still exist if it weren't for modern medicine?


 - Yes the human race would still exist, but there would be a lot less of us and quality of life would be miserable.



> Do you think the human race might not still be here in the future if we keep expanding the pill factories?


 No, we will always be here despite unjustified fear of "pill factories". Colesterol drugs and anitbiotics alone are responsible for saving, or substantially prolonging, hundreds of millions of lives.


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

Sorry to deknow, I didn't read the post I quoted clearly. I do believe however that if we just don't treat there will be no bee genetics to choose from because a dead hive can't be bred from. I usually wait till the threshold level of any problem then treat so I don't lose the hive and I believe this does help them build resistance because they are allowed to become infected with whatever, mites, virus etc. but not allowed to die therefore building a resistance slowly...:kn:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> I agree that you do not treat the entire local population of humans if an individual becomes ill. I thought you were talking about humans: . Sorry if I misunderstood.
> 
> - Yes the human race would still exist, but there would be a lot less of us and quality of life would be miserable.
> 
> No, we will always be here despite unjustified fear of "pill factories". Colesterol drugs and anitbiotics alone are responsible for saving, or substantially prolonging, hundreds of millions of lives.


I don't believe there would have been any less humans if modern medicine didn't exist. People would have more kids like before and like what happens in areas that don't have medicine. You wouldn't live as long that may be true.
I also believe that the fear of "pill factories" is not unjustified and will wipe out populations in areas that they are in use. Of course the drug free areas will then take over. Precisely what I belive will happen to bees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I don't believe there would have been any less humans ...


Excuse me, but this is a bee in my bonnet and both of you used it. "less humans". No there would not be "less humans", there may be FEWER humans, but not less. Just had to. Sorry. I know people hate it when I try to correct ones usage of language. Y'all are welcome to correct anything I say or misspell.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I don't believe there would have been any less humans if modern medicine didn't exist. People would have more kids like before and like what happens in areas that don't have medicine. You wouldn't live as long that may be true.
> I also believe that the fear of "pill factories" is not unjustified and will wipe out populations in areas that they are in use. Of course the drug free areas will then take over. Precisely what I belive will happen to bees.


Your view of the current/future world reminds a lot of the movie Idiocracy. Have some more Brawndo!

I am done -

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sqkcrk - What if _*I*_ happen to measure humans by total mass existing on the planet, and not by unit?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Nabber86 said:


> sqkcrk - What if _*I*_ happen to measure humans by total mass existing on the planet, and not by unit?


I ain't no English Major, but I believe one can be LESS HUMAN, but there can't be LESS HUMANS. Still has to be FEWER. But yer just joshin' me, arncha?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> I ain't no English Major, but I believe one can be LESS HUMAN, but there can't be LESS HUMANS. Still has to be FEWER. But yer just joshin' me, arncha?


Yes. Just kidding. But still, if you measure human by mass you can have less human. As in -- the human mass of the planet was 200,000 kg in 1900 and now it is 500,000 kg. Therefore, we had less human in 1900. Of course that only applies to Planet Earth. Not sure that it applies on Acebird's Planet.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Nope. Still gotta disagree. Less human mass, not less humans.

Since the OP decided to go ahead a treat, I guess the Poll is moot? To treat or not to treat was the question. Treat was the answer. Results pending.


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

I guess the only question now would be if it was worth it to treat my biggest hives to rid them of 5000 mites, as of last check. Would they have lived or died? Who knows, really? One or all of them may have been able to handle this count. If so, although I treated them they are still alive and had better make me honey, darnit:v:!!!

By the way you guys,:gh:.

Later, John


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

5,000? Three weeks later, 15,000. Three weeks later, 45,000. Then bee population starts to decline naturally and three weeks later you have 135,000 mites. I think you did the right thing. Varroa may not be quite that productive. Just a guesstimate.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I know people hate it when I try to correct ones usage of language. Y'all are welcome to correct anything I say or misspell.


No I don't hate it but I hope you got a lot of time to waste cuss you're going to be busy.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Nope. Still gotta disagree. Less human mass, not less humans.
> Treat was the answer.


He, he, treat was the DECISION not the answer.


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

I think I would relate it more to humans infested with head lice. At first it may not cause a serious problem. Later, it may lead to infections. I could imagine the drop in productivity, with all the itching and scratching. Couldn't read or write, or barely think without noticing the itching. Now imagine a community outbreak. Different people with different rolls and jobs in the community, all with decreased productivity. Some high risk rolls may be impaired to injury vunerability. Perhaps some of those high risk jobs were meant to protect people, or nurse, or save, or provide some service to the community. If they are all weakened, especially at the same time, it sure wouldn't be good for the community. The community would begin to suffer as a whole. 

But of course, as it's been said, you can't hardly compare humans and bees. This is our world. Look how we have evolved. From caves and clubs, to missions to space. Bees are still the same creature they have always been. They haven't built rockets to the moon. However, they ARE an amazing creature. I can't build a honey comb...of course, I can't build a rocket either. Just imagine how weakened their community is with such a hinderence to productivity. But, can we really say? Do we really know?

Later, John

BTW, full hive activity has still not recovered at the entrance. I'll keep you posted on changes.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

John V said:


> BTW, full hive activity has still not recovered at the entrance. I'll keep you posted on changes.


Understand that chemical treatments are designed to kill bugs and a bee is a bug. It is no different than a human taking a pill. There are always side effects.

I am just wondering now, you have treated the hive so who is going to eat the honey that you crave?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> who is going to eat the honey that you crave?


I would. Wouldn't you? Besides, I doubt that there is much honey on these hives right now anyway. Unless MO is far ahead of NY.

There is nothing wrong w/ honey from hives treated w/ MAQS.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Therte is nothing wrong w/ honey from hives treated w/ MAQS.


Is that a typo!
Now I feel safe.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

To join SQKCRK's crusade, bees are not bugs. Bugs are in the group Hemiptera. Bees are not. To a biologist, there is a big difference. 

There is not a black and white effect of any treatment. The way it is used can greatly change it's effect on the gene pool, and residual levels found in honey. Using a treatment with the utmost caution to prevent tolerance build up and contamination is different than just throwing it in the hive with no care for the unfavorable consequences.

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Is that a typo!
> Now I feel safe.


Yes, it is caused by FFS.

So, are you over paranoid? Or would you eat honey from that hive or not? You seem to imply that any honey from that hive is now contaminated.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> To join SQKCRK's crusade, bees are not bugs. Bugs are in the group Hemiptera. Bees are not. To a biologist, there is a big difference.
> 
> There is not a black and white effect of any treatment. The way it is used can greatly change it's effect on the gene pool, and residual levels found in honey. Using a treatment with the utmost caution to prevent tolerance build up and contamination is different than just throwing it in the hive with no care for the unfavorable consequences.
> 
> Crazy Roland


"bugs" is a generic term. It can apply to all things gone wrong or what we don't like as humans. OK technically bees are not bugs but they do die as a result of the treatment even if the procedure is done correctly.

Now, how about all the newbies that don't know squat or don't understand the procedures yet proceed to use the product anyway?

An exterminator has to be trained or licenced to use the chemicals of the trade. Joe blow can't just go to HD and get these chemicals to try it themselves. You practically have to have a hazmat suit on to use some of these chems. And then there is the disposal of the the residuals. House hold garbage? Back yard? Who oversees?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird, 

You do realize that you live in one of the most contaminated places in the United States. There at least 15 superfund sites in Utica alone. At least that many in nearby Syracuse, 5 up in Rome, and another 3 down in Herkimer. (Interestingly enough, none of these sites are "pill factories"). The Mowhawk River and Erie Canal are loaded with PCBs and heavy metals. Anything that you grow in a garden or pull out of a hive is contaminated by the very air, soil, and water in your area. 

Seriously, do you eat your own honey, and how do you leave the house in the morning without a respirator and a hazmat suit?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> "An exterminator has to be trained or licenced to use the chemicals of the trade. Joe blow can't just go to HD and get these chemicals to try it themselves. You practically have to have a hazmat suit on to use some of these chems. And then there is the disposal of the the residuals. House hold garbage? Back yard? Who oversees?


An exterminator works with pesticides 8 hours a day x 5 days a week. That is a lot of exposure over the course of time and that exposure requires a certain level of protection, although I seriously doubt it includes a hazmat suit (probably more like a pair of rubber gloves and a dust mask). If your house is sprayed for bugs, your exposure in minimal compared to the the guy applying the pesticide. Big difference in exposure scenarios. 

Joe Blow can certainly go down to HD and buy all the pesticides he wants - it's called Raid, Orthomax, and Black Flag, among others. Additionally, Joe Blow is now permitted to purchase MAQ off the internet and use it in his bee hives. 




> practically have to have a hazmat suit on


 Your propensity for weasal words, as pointed out in several places in this forum, is astounding. Let's try to keep the overeaction and scare tactics to a minimum, shale we?


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## Jeff G (May 12, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Now, how about all the newbies that don't know squat or don't understand the procedures yet proceed to use the product anyway?
> 
> An exterminator has to be trained or licenced to use the chemicals of the trade. Joe blow can't just go to HD and get these chemicals to try it themselves. You practically have to have a hazmat suit on to use some of these chems. And then there is the disposal of the the residuals. House hold garbage? Back yard? Who oversees?


I will take issue with you here Acebird. I have been in the pesticide industry for 30 years. I have dealt with the commercial applicator and the home owner consumer side and the facts are the home owner or (newbie beekeeper) is more likely to make the application correctly and follow the direction more thoroughly than a commercial guy. The reason is the commercial guy deals with it every day and may ease up on proper application where as the new user that seldom make the application will read all the instructions and follow them to a T because he has nothing else to go on. The companies that I have worked for have even researched this fact and I have seen the market research on 2 separate occasions and both pointed to the consumer as the better applicator.


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

I assure you guys, I did follow the directions to the "T". I've got a moderate case of OC disorder, so trust me on that. I am very careful, neat, and direct in all aspects of my life. 

Later, John


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Loose any queens, like the guys in the other MAQS Thread?


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

Don't know. I'll check tomorrow. They aren't suppose to be disturbed until day seven. Tomorrow is day seven. I haven't seen any dead bees or brood anywhere including what I can see in the SBB since treatment began. I have seen more in/out activity today than I have ever seen since I started these hives last year. I tried to count them by the minute but couldn't count fast enough. Someone had suggested they were absconding, but they were coming just as fast. Must finally be a flow. I did witness some orientation flights today from all three hives, so hopefully thats good. I will check the queens and in hive conditions tomorrow and post back. Then I'll get my sticky boards ready for day 23-24 to check the drop after the next drone brood cycle for mite results.

Later, John


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

I checked all my hives today including the three I treated. I am VERY happy!!!! ALL hives have a vigorously laying queen in them. They all have eggs and brood of all ages. I even saw a few new bees emerging. There were no dead bees or dead brood anywhere in the hives or on the SBB. I did a complete inspection and everything looked good. Not even queen cells. At this point, I can say there has been no negative effects on the treated hives that I am aware of. I marked my calendar and will do another drop in 21 days.

Later, John

Forgot to mention, these queens are four months, three months, and three weeks on these three hives.


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## Dragonfly130 (Dec 12, 2008)

Congrats on the good outcome John. I think you made the right choice by helping your bee's deal with the mites!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Just curious, as this product is not yet available in my country, what was the $ cost of these treatments?


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## John V (Jun 7, 2010)

$58.74 for 10 hive treatments. So almost $6.00 a hive.

Later, John


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Not cost efficient for commercial operators that I know.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Really? 

Factoring in the work attached to dealing with hive losses caused by mites, the cost of lost production, the cost of a new queen & package, $6.00 is too much?


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## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

and if you buy them in a pail of 72 strips Dadant charges $136.80 ($3.80 per treatment)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> Really? $6.00 is too much?


According to a bkpr friend of mine w/ a cpl of thousand colonies it is cheaper for him to make up his own formic delivery devices. He keeps his losses pretty low, compared to others. And his statement to me was when MAQS were supposed to cost around $4.00 per treatment.

In all other parts of Agriculture one can buy the formulation and add your own water or oil. But, I guess bkprs can't be trusted to follow label instructions.


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## Ben Franklin (May 3, 2011)

Im trying Parsons' Gold Solution, it is a herbal gel,, suppose to almost eliminate mites


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Is it formulated for mite treatment or is this an off label application? What was Parson's Gold Solution originally developed for? What is the active ingredient?


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## CharlieN (Feb 23, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> But, I guess bkprs can't be trusted to follow label instructions.


 Mark, 
I don't think the problem is in following label instructions - it's in the interpretation :lpf: :lpf:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

CharlieN said:


> Mark,
> I don't think the problem is in following label instructions - it's in the interpretation :lpf: :lpf:


Laugh all you want.  Mistakes are made every day to such a point that manufacturers have to print instructions that some times exceed the size of the product packaging. Instructions are written in multiple languages and now there are even graphic symbols that are required because the written language is not good enough. So keep laughing, its real funny.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird, 

You never answered the question. Do you eat your own honey?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Yes I do. Is it relevant?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Considering you honey, in all lieklyhood, is contaminated with PCBs. Yes.


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## Capricorn (Apr 20, 2009)

What about HopGuard? Anyone used that? If it works like advertised it sounds great.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> Considering you honey, in all lieklyhood, is contaminated with PCBs. Yes.


t:
I would rather doubt it. At least not in any greater concentrations than any other honey. PCB's are in lakes and rivers at the bottom in the sludge and in most cases are harmless until you start dredging and stir them up.
This is not of topic:
Through out the history of man he has made many mistakes polluting the environment causing harmful effects to himself and nature. Unlike many species a human has the ability to think, access the damage he has done and change his ways. Not all of us are thinkers though so it takes time for the right thing to happen.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Considering that PCBs have been found in polar ice, you can be fairly certain that they are in your honey. You are afterall, located near ground zero of the PCB capitol of the world. How could you possibly eat honey from your area (or anything else for that matter)? 

For a guy that seems paranoid about any and all chemicals (including pill factorys, whatever that is), you sure dismiss PCBs "rather" quickly.


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## Tohya (Apr 6, 2011)

PCBs have low water solubility, but high solubility in oils and fats. So PCB's would collect in the wax more than the honey. And if you are going to find PCB's anywhere in a hive they will show up more in the pollen.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Who is using PCBs to treat their hives? Sounds like an Off Label Treatment to me. Which aren't to be discussed on beesource, if I remember correctly.


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