# Michael Bush recommended frames?



## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

wunderlong88 said:


> Just starting to set up my first beehive (Flow hive) using Michael Bush's rec.'s on treatment free beekeeping. Are these the right frames to order? He mentions Mann Lake PF100 and PF120 and Honey Super Cell (I haven't found these anywhere).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Before you depend too much on "Michael Bush's rec.'s on treatment free beekeeping", you should evaluate IF the TF methods are feasible at your location.

Because if YES, the frame specs are about irrelevant to your future TF success.
IF NO, then no frame will make a difference and you will still be dissapointed.


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## wunderlong88 (Sep 18, 2021)

GregV said:


> Before you depend too much on "Michael Bush's rec.'s on treatment free beekeeping", you should evaluate IF the TF methods are feasible at your location.
> 
> Because if YES, the frame specs are about irrelevant to your future TF success.
> IF NO, then no frame will make a difference and you will still be dissapointed.


Ok...how do I find out if they are feasible where I am at? (If there was supposed to be a link above it didn't work for me)

I do have a long time local beek about 10 miles from me who does basically his method (not sure he even knows who Michael Bush is) and has done it for decades. He loses a hive once in awhile (last time 6 years ago and this due to the state spraying chemicals in the bar ditches near his hives) He told me he used plastic foundation, no treatments and he doesn't buy queens. He said Varroa and wax moths can be a problem but generally not if the hive is strong. He says our biggest problem people spraying fields (we are way out in the country 70 miles west of Ft. Worth, Texas).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

wunderlong88 said:


> I do have a long time local beek about 10 miles from me who does basically his method............He says our biggest problem people spraying fields (we are way out in the country 70 miles west of Ft. Worth, Texas).


Well then perfect - become apprentice of your local beek and try to replicate what he does.
As a matter of fact - I would do everything possible *to get his bees *(that is one very major component, not some frame specs).

It sounds like the TF may just be feasible at your place per your description - a reasonably remote TX location where someone has been doing TF successfully for long enough time. That alone is a good indication.

I would not worry too much of what Michael Bush does at his remote Nebraska ranch.
For sure I would not worry about the frame specs.


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## wunderlong88 (Sep 18, 2021)

GregV said:


> Well then perfect - become apprentice of your local beek and try to replicate what he does.
> As a matter of fact - I would do everything possible *to get his bees *(that is one very major component, not some frame specs).
> 
> It sounds like the TF may just be feasible at your place per your description - a reasonably remote TX location where someone has been doing TF successfully for long enough time. That alone is a good indication.
> ...


TY! He is going to give me bees (or get a local swarm which is how he has gotten his, when people call wanting them removed from somewhere).

Just trying to learn and after talking my local beek and then reading Michael's book they sounded similar.

Thank you again!


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## Vermillion Artisan Cidery (Jul 9, 2021)

I'd also call out, foundationless is an effort and skill, so if your trying to like beekeeping without the need to drink from the fire hose, know that you'll have to learn even more.


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## wunderlong88 (Sep 18, 2021)

Vermillion Artisan Cidery said:


> I'd also call out, foundationless is an effort and skill, so if your trying to like beekeeping without the need to drink from the fire hose, know that you'll have to learn even more.


TY! My first choice is go with plastic foundation (as my local beek does and recommends)


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

wunderlong88 said:


> Just trying to learn and after talking my local beek and then reading Michael's book they sounded similar.


They may sound similar.
But the thing is - the beekeeping is a very locality-dependent affair and the experiences/recommendations are not universally portable.
Go by your local beek.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Wood frames with plastic foundation is the way to go IMO. With any luck you'll never have to complain to yourself like I do every time I encounter one of those plastic frames in my colonies. There's not many left as I've weeded most of them out. But there's still a handful of them in circulation. 



wunderlong88 said:


> Ok...how do I find out if they are feasible where I am at?


Start with the assumption that it's not feasible and then allow yourself to prove that it is. That would be my suggestion (regarding treatment free).


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## wunderlong88 (Sep 18, 2021)

What is a good recommendation of a plastic Foundation thats natural cell or small cell size that I can put in the wood frames that come with my flow hive?


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

wunderlong88:

Welcome to Beesource!

Regarding your original inquiry, I believe that both PF100 and PF120 plastic frames are still available via Mann Lake, so if you are inclined to experiment with the plastic frames that is a fairly straightforward option. While I've never used them, I have read that many apply a layer or two of wax to these frames to help aid in their acceptance and use.

As regards Honey Supercell, the only folks I am aware of that might have some stock available is Simpson's Beekeeping Supplies. They are awfully expensive: Simpson's Beekeeping Supplies

I am not aware of anyone offering 4.9mm plastic foundation at present, but both Dadant and Mann Lake offer it in wax.

In your post you referred to Michael Bush 'recommended frames'. He does espouse the use of narrow-frames (i.e. 1-1/4") but I am unaware of a reliable supplier for these at present. If you feel up to making some up, TheOhioCountryboy has a good video on how to make them: 




All that said- if you have the luxury of a local mentor who has had success in TF beekeeping and is willing to assist you, I will add my vote to those who say do whatever he is doing to start out. He will be an invaluable resource for you.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

wunderlong88 said:


> What is a good recommendation of a plastic Foundation thats natural cell or small cell size that I can put in the wood frames that come with my flow hive?


Oh boy. A lot to unpack here.

I _think_ Acorn foundation is 5.1 mm, but don't know that for sure.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

where does your 10 mile away mentor get his from?
Maybe ask,, if he has a bunch of hives he "May" order by the "big box" and can sell you a 100 or so .
If he has bees and has for a while he has done some "shopping" for price and Quality so leverage that work he has done.

IE if he has 5.1 and is getting you a split then you also want the 5.1
If he is using the 5.4 then the same applies.

GG


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> IE if he has 5.1 and is getting you a split then you also want the 5.1
> If he is using the 5.4 then the same applies.


Good point, GG.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

wunderlong88 said:


> What is a good recommendation of a plastic Foundation thats *natural cell *or small cell size that I can put in the wood frames that come with my flow hive?


You have to understand that the natural cell varies (because the bees vary by the location and the genetics and the situation).
It can be anywhere from 4.5 to 5.5mm - these are ALL natural cells and vary even within a single comb (if foundation-less).
Like others just stated above - do what your local TF beek does as a start (as he already done the pre-work for you).
Don't chase the "natural cell/small cell" ideology.


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## wunderlong88 (Sep 18, 2021)

Okay. Thank you. I am going to find out what he is using and I do plan to do what he does. Because I got a flow Hive and he doesn't have one I wasn't sure how that would change anything that I am doing and that he might not know. Otherwise I'm perfectly confident that following what he does will work. As he's been doing it for decades successfully.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

wunderlong88 said:


> Okay. Thank you. I am going to find out what he is using and I do plan to do what he does. Because I got a flow Hive and he doesn't have one I wasn't sure how that would change anything that I am doing and that he might not know. Otherwise I'm perfectly confident that following what he does will work. As he's been doing it for decades successfully.


that is the point I was trying to make.
Instead of starting at square 1 , go where he "is" at square 14 and start there, that way the first 14 squares he has somewhat figured out for your locale.

review adjust sure , but no need to start over.

Beekeeping is beekeeping the flow hive is just a way to get the honey out with a patented easier, more $ way.
so get the hive to size , wintering, requeening all the little things would be somewhat the same. He pulls his supers you turn your Key.

GG


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Sometimes Mann Lake doesn't seem to have the PF100 (deep) or the PF120 (medium) but they always seem to have some PF10x or PF12x where x varies depending on color. They are 4.9mm. Mann Lake also has a PF50x series which is 5.4mm.


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