# Nuc split failure likely, what to do?



## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

Ok, this is an extension of my split post. You all advised to wait a week to inspect, but I just wanted to take a peek at the 5 frame nuc as I just didn't have a good feeling about it. Recap - opened my hive when I brought home a new nuc just under 2 weeks ago. It had 9 queen cells, and no queen, at least that I could find. General consensus was that it swarmed, although I'm not sure why. They had plenty of room as I'd just added a deep and moved 2 frames up into the new deep. So I split the single hive into 3 splits, each with 3 QC's. One of the splits was a smaller 5 frame nuc.

Today's inspection of the nuc - the nuc started with 3 queen cells and a smallish population of bees. 2 QC were opened, but torn apart. One was still intact, but I can't figure out why. The other splits had the QC's open at least 5 days ago. So why one QC is still intact is pretty confusing, especially given that the other 2 were torn apart pretty thoroughly. I'm not sure if the queen hatched and the workers are tearing the cells apart, of if they were attacked and dragged out and killed. But if they were killed, why would there be an intact QC? Very confusing.

Feeding was definitely a mistake I should have listened to Michael Bush on that. I did so thinking that since it was a pretty small split, it would help them out, big mistake. Live and learn. Every cell is either full of honey, syrup or drones, except for the few brood that haven't opened yet. A couple of capped brood emerged while I was inspecting. 

There are a lot of drone cells, and seem to be a lot of drones. There may be a laying worker?? I'll double check tomorrow. I didn't think until now that it may be a virgin queen laying. To me, the comb seems to be a mess now. They seem to have converted much of the comb to drone cells.

Even if the last QC works out, she's gonna have one helluva mess to clean up. Do laying workers reject a queen?

I'm going to inspect the other two splits in a week. I'm considering buying a mated queen as an emergency backup. I wasn't a huge fan of their genetics anyway. 

The nuc I just bought seems to have fantastic genetics. They're doing very well. If I could get a queen from them, I could use it to test for a queen, then introduce it into one of the splits regardless of the result of the test.

Thoughts please?


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## Barhopper (Mar 5, 2015)

I wouldn't feed a nuc more than a jar at make up right now in Florida. Give them another frame with eggs or just hatched brood to see what they do. If you get a queen they'll move the nectar though they might need another box on top of the existing one. I'm kinda in the same position with one now. I'm not sure of the hatch date so I'm waiting it out. Worst that can happen is I get 5 drawn frames back.


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## Bee Nut (Oct 10, 2015)

Sounds to me like either the "intact" cell is actually a hatched cell with the lid closed back (have seen this before) or there is a queen present that you can't find. If a laying worker is present you should see multiple eggs per cell. Virgin queens don't lay eggs. It also isn't likely that a queen is laying after two weeks from a capped cell. You'll need to confirm if there is a queen present before introducing a new queen. 

The route I would go is feed each nuc a frame of capped brood from my other hives each week until I see eggs or 35 days has passed since I saw capped queen cells. When adding the brood, if there are any eggs and no qc's are made then it's likely there is a queen present. If I still don't see eggs after 35 days, I combine them with a queen right hive or add a new queen. Finding a virgin queen is possible but really difficult. It's not as bad in a nuc box but you can still spend a lot of time looking. I've had queens hatch but not get mated and they'll tear down every queen cell you give them and remove eggs too but not lay anything. Pretty frustrating stuff. 

My .02


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

Barhopper said:


> I wouldn't feed a nuc more than a jar at make up right now in Florida.


Yep, it was a huge mistake. I should have listened to you all on that.

When does the cabbage palm bloom start? I haven't seen a single pod yet and I thought they bloomed next month??


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

Bee Nut said:


> Sounds to me like either the "intact" cell is actually a hatched cell with the lid closed back (have seen this before) or there is a queen present that you can't find.
> 
> The route I would go is feed each nuc a frame of capped brood from my other hives each week until I see eggs or 35 days has passed since I saw capped queen cells.


Thank you. I'll do a more thorough inspection in a couple of days.

I agree with your suggestion of adding brood, but my only issue is that my only truly good hive is less than 2 weeks old. It's doing great, I really like their genetics, but I really don't want to stretch them too thin, then be back to square one.

I've only been at this for about 2 months. If I come out of this with 2 of the 3 splits healthy, I'll consider it a successful first split attempt. If even one survives, then I will end up with the experience and drawn comb at least.

What does everyone do with a frame that is half full of drone comb - cut out the half with drone comb?


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## Barhopper (Mar 5, 2015)

Cabbage palm is late summer for me. No pepper trees in your area?


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

Tons of pepper, but I thought that they bloomed in October or around there, correct?


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## Barhopper (Mar 5, 2015)

Not sure about that. We don't have it.


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

Update, I did a little more thorough inspection today as I wanted to recombine the hive if it was failing, it looks a lot better today. I'm pretty sure I found a virgin queen, never seen one before but it was larger than a worker, smaller than a drone (thickness) had a long abdomen and was pretty red in color.

She was very fast and very shy. Every time I rolled the frame over to look at her she'd run to the other side as fast as I could flip the frame, back and forth. From what I've read that's typical VQ behavior. 

I meant to check the intact queen cell to see if it was vacant with the cap closed back, but forgot. I think Bee Nut may be correct, the cap just closed back shut after she emerged, then destroyed the other two cells as they are torn apart from the side.

Anyway, she'll hopefully get mated over the next couple of days and start laying.

Thanks for all the help, I do appreciate it.


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

Barhopper said:


> Not sure about that. We don't have it.


Surprising, I figured it would easily go that far north.


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## Big Gator (Jun 13, 2015)

The Florida Beekeeping Management Calendar may prove informative.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/in848


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