# Making undercut hand holds on bee boxes



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

HELP... Need some info from good woodworkers. I recently had a question from a couple of people who have used my system for cutting hand holds, utilizing the jig and plans on UTube. Specifically, can the Skil Saw be set to make an undercut handle rather than a straight or slightly protruding cut. Here was my answer, but, as you can see, much of what I said, is what I have been told, not tried. Can anyone comment, have you tried it. Will it work.

I have my Skil Saw blade, set on 20 degrees table tilt, ( a $39.00 Skil Saw), I like that grip better than those exaggerated undercuts that cut into your fingers. The 20 degrees will make a fat gripping surface that protrudes slightly and I think is comfortable for lifting deep and shallow boxes. It seems to me that the table tilt set on 10 degrees (or maybe it was 15), will make a straight cut. I haven't changed my saw tilt since 2002. Made several thousand boxes since then. Changed blade one time, and that was to put on a thicker (stiffer) blade, with inserts, than the one used in the video.

If you are asking if you can make those cuts with the razor edge and under slant, I don't know. Until beesource (Barry), made up a new set of drawings for my invention, I did not even know that they made left hand and right hand circular saws. Mine have always been right hand saws. 

While I have never tried it, I have been told, that, if you used a left hand saw, set on 15 or 20 degrees table tilt, it may produce the undercut, cut. I have never tried it. I don't have a left hand saw. However, if you use a left hand saw, it would seem to me that you would need to use the stop on the right, because the rotation of the blade will be opposite of the video. Rather than pushing against the side safety stop on the left, the rotation of the blade would be pushing against the right stop, and you would need to rock the saw from the left side. If you try this, PLEASE be careful. I have never tried it.

Does anyone know if this will work. What about it Daniel Y,.... other good woodworkers,...... I don't have a left hand saw. I know there are many who like the deep undercut handles.

cchoganjr


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I imagine in theory it would work if you matched the angle of your saw to the angle of the jig, it would produce a 90 degree upper finger hold. 
If the saw was tiled on more of an angle, it would produce an undercut handle. The saw blade would have to be able to drop enough to accomplish this.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

What about a similar jig but for a handheld router with a dovetail bit


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## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

I have a left handed magnesium saw and planned to use your method Cleo. I just haven't gotten to it. 

I have found that many times, more than 1 jig is needed for some methods. I'll take a look as I've built many jigs. It's possible you need 2 jigs, with a reference pin. Meaning, you drill a small 1/8 or 3/32 hole and create a pin for the two jigs. Then, you flip the saw around on the 2nd jig at the angle needed to cut the hand hold. I also wanted a longer hand hold than what is shown, so I planned on modifying mine to allow a wider hand hold. We'll see if I get around to it this winter.

Rob.

www.mongrelbees.com


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Fisherman 43..... Wouldn't using a router and dovetail bit, give you the same cut as a saw blade? You would still need some way to make the undercut. 

To make an undercut, as opposed to a straight, or slightly protruding, (convex) cut, the table on the Skil Saw will need to tilt opposite the direction that a right hand Skil Saw tilts. Do all right hand saws tilt the same way. If they don't, then, that is a whole different scenario. Since I don't have a left hand Skil Saw, I don't know which way they tilt.

I don't like the razor thin undercut, as it hurts my fingers, but, some people do. I'm hoping that someone with a left hand saw will tell us whether it will make the cut or not. Then we can tell everyone, and they can make the cut they like.

RobWok... By longer did you mean top to bottom, or side to side? If you want it wider, side to side, simply make your ramps wider (on the inside) so that on your 2d or 3d cut, you slide the saw 1/4 to 1/2 inch to the right and bring the saw down again. If you want it wider, top to bottom, make the angle of the ramps less. You may notice on the UTube video I say a 19 degree slope for the ramps, but, if you build the jig by my plans or Barry's plans, the angle will be 15 degrees. You can vary the width by changing the degree slope of the ramps on the jig. I changed it to 15 degrees some years ago, but when making the video, I reverted to the original 19 degree slope without realizing it. Didn't notice it until someone brought it to my attention. Now I tell them to go by the instructions, not by what I said on the Video A 19 degree angle will make a longer cut, top to bottom.

I don't think you can flip the saw around, as that would place the blade of the saw, at the rear of the jig, not where you are cutting the hand hold. I believe you would need a left hand saw, or as you said, a 2d jig..

cchoganjr


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Cleo

For your own personal use are you building enough boxes to justify buying a Shaper and doing it right? An economy shaper can be bought for a few hundred dollars and a good used one in the same price range. I think for anybody who has more than a few hives and builds their own boxes a shaper would be the way to go.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Bluegrass,... No, actually I am about to retire from beekeeping and woodworking. Will keep a few bees but not sell any more, and may make a few boxes, tops, bottom boards, but very few. 

I had a Delta Shaper some time back, but, I never used it enough to justify it taking up space. (Had it since 1959). In my search to make the hand holds, many years ago, I never found a bit that the shaper would accept and would make the professional looking hand hold. (Actually I did find one, but they wanted $1800.00 for it) and it would not fit my shaper without some modification. That is why I came up with the Skil Saw Method. For my purposes, this method is completely acceptable. Makes a very nice hand hold, and looks like those made by the professional machines.. The only thing I have found is that some people want a radical undercut on the hand hold. So I am trying to help them. I like the convex hand hold, much, much, better than an undercut. The undercut hurts my fingers. The slight convex is comfortable for lifting deep and shallow supers.

cchoganjr


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I use a molding knife holder with cove blades on my table saw. I assemble the box first so that I have it all to hold onto while I cut the handhold. I made a jig the right size and place it in the right place on the table so that I can drop the box down onto the running blade and then just move it around the opening of the jig.
This is the blade on the saw in the jig:









Closeup of blade:










The handhold it cuts:


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## tefer2 (Sep 13, 2009)

Can you give me the size of the cove blade? Takes three right? Where did they come from?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

http://corobcutters.com/
http://www.bladesllc.com/magic-molder-heads.html

http://corobcutters.com/4458covemoldingknife-1.aspx


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

It takes one holder and three blades. I think mine is 3/4". A 5/8" would make a softer bowl.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Why don't I see a cutter for making a nice triangle on foundationless frames?
Oh now I see it on the Blades site, only $300+ to get set up.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

You could use this 

http://corobcutters.com/2490degreeflutemoldingknife.aspx

but you would have to make two passes to get the triangle and still use a saw blade to cut the shoulder flat.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

odfrank...Nice hand hold. And close to the Commercial looking ones. Do you have your jig anchored in the miter grooves on the table.

Barry...I had that Cove molding head and just never thought about using it because it was only about 3/4 width and did not look like the commercial cuts.

cchoganjr


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Cleo, please don't retire from Beesource. I appreciate your contributions.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

odfrank said:


> Why don't I see a cutter for making a nice triangle on foundationless frames?
> Oh now I see it on the Blades site, only $300+ to get set up.


How about this Edge V setup in a router table? Less than $40 

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=25328&site=ROCKLER


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Fisherman 43..... Wouldn't using a router and dovetail bit, give you the same cut as a saw blade? You would still need some way to make the undercut.
> cchoganjr


Depending on the degree angle of dovetail bit you use you could offset the jig angle enough to make a flat or even slightly concave handhold. 

It is probably similar to the saw blade angles, but Santa brought me a new router and router table for Christmas (I did my own shopping :thumbsup: ) so I am having fun playing with my new toy


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> odfrank... Do you have your jig anchored in the miter grooves on the table.


No, it is screwed to the fence. That way I could adjust the distance from the top of the box, which I have set for two inches.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

odfrank... I just wondered. I have that cove molding, just never used it. I thought I might play with it as soon as I get all my boxes that I need, built. 

I have my hand holds, 2" from top also. I was just thinking I could anchor the frame jig, in the miter grooves, and they would always set up exactly the same without measuring. Just drop in miter grooves and clamp with a "C" clamp. Might play around with it next Spring. Right now I am building all the boxes, tops, bottom boards that I need for the Nucs next Spring.

cchoganjr


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

I guess I can respond to the original question on the thread, yes you can make the undercut handle, that's what I do. I'm only moderately happy with it though as my skill saw doesn't make the cut as deep as I'd like because of the angle. I'm going to try and change the jig this winter to see if I can get a deeper cut. I'll try to post some pics, but I just started a new kitchen construction project so I may not have a lot of extra time to play with bee stuff. Some pics of the finished boxes from last year with the handles.
http://s1113.beta.photobucket.com/u...rt=3&o=0&_suid=135723447450901329275163990451



As to foundationless frames, why buy something you don't need. I just run them through the jig on the table saw and into a basket on the other end. You have to run them through twice, but it goes really fast with the next piece pushing each through.
http://s1113.beta.photobucket.com/u...pg.html?&_suid=135723430413101003075223725739

Hopefully the links work


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Mr. C I like your 2X4 with squaring jig for your boxes and might just borrow the idea and try that out. I just picked up a couple of squaring strap clamps and am going to try thos as well.

Have you ever had a top bar bind up and shoot out of that jig? Looks like a 10" powered top bar gun


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I made up a jig and cut a chunk of hand holds. I have also used more than one skil saw on the jig and only had to modify my center line a smidge. I would think that since you need to plunge the blade to make the cut that the saw would try to twist and bind sideways. I have found I set the ‘foot’ of the saw to the front of the cradle and plunge and move down the sled. I would not classify myself as a “good woodworker” but I have built a bit of furniture. 
I was thinking of trying using the dato cut on the box first and then lining your jig with the nice sharp cut for the bevel.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

Fisherman43: 

No thus far I have not had any launches, but that doesn't mean I'm not standing off to the side the whole time just in case =). The trick is to keep feeding the boards slowly and smoothly (I keep a long narrow push stick to push the last one through). I don't let go of the one I'm putting in until I have another feeding behind it. I find most launches ripping boards are due to not holding or blocking them. If you aren't letting go they tend not to have the opportunity to accelerate against the saw blade.

Minz:
I played with my jig a while in order to get it to make the undercut properly. I found that you can't plunge the end of the last cut. I get close to the bottom and then let the saw slide down the rest of the way cutting as it goes. Not sure that explanation makes any sense, but it worked tolerable well. Never had any twisting with my saw.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I made this funky video about my handhold jig. Please don't judge my carpentry by this box. I made seven out of re-purposed redwood siding and they were different thickness. The box in the video was # 7 made out of all the mismatched parts and hobbled together pieces. The bees won't notice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2q5Hnogvqg


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Good job Ollie. Good Video.

Can I be your agent when Hollywood starts calling.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Everybody....I saw a new video on UTube on making hand holds. This one using a radial arm saw.

To see it, go to UTube and search, Making Hand Holds in the Beekeepers Workshop by Steve Tilman Good video, good sound, and it makes a nice hand hold, and if you like the radical undercut on the handle, it will do it. 

This one only makes the hand hold the width of the saw blade radial, requires adjusting the blade 3 times during the cut, but again, if you want the undercut handle, it will make it. 


If someone knows how to do it, you could cut and paste the link to the video and anyone wanting to view it could just click on it. If I figure out how to do it, I will post it. UPDATE..... Check below, I pasted the link. 

I think I will stay with my simple little jig that uses a Skil Saw. Simple, fast, safe.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Lets see if this link to the Steve Tilman, making Hand Holds in the Beekeepers Workshop video will work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyxfRMMD7SU

O.K. i just tried it and it works. Check it out, it may be what you are looking for.

cchoganjr


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

odfrank said:


> I use a molding knife holder with cove blades on my table saw.


I made my own set up using a molding knife with cove blades:










I fold the board down on one end, then repeat on the other.


















But I nearly always get tear out on one side of the hand hold










Any idea how to stop this tear out?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I see similar tear out on some commercial boxes so it must be a common, hard to solve problem. I make the cut on assembled boxes, more to hold on to and control, and hands further away from the blade. Make sure your blades are razor sharp. Try working from different directions. Try a shallow cut and then a deeper cut.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

odfrank said:


> I see similar tear out on some commercial boxes so it must be a common, hard to solve problem.


I'll see it occasionally on budget or commercial grade boxes. But I'm getting it just about every time. Some times worse than the picture I posted. I rarely get a smooth handle on either side.



odfrank said:


> I make the cut on assembled boxes, more to hold on to and control, and hands further away from the blade.


I don't see any issue with doing it one unassembled board at a time. After reading your post above about doing it on assembled boxes, I was expecting the blade to grab the board and throw it like crazy. It wasn't bad though. I gave myself about 2.5" lip on the front and the back of the jig, more than your (what I can only assume is) 3/4". This may make a difference though, and is obviously something you wouldn't need if you had a whole board to hold onto.

At any point in time, my hands are at least 6" away from the blade, and always has wood between the blade and my hand. The only way it would be a problem is if I didn't have the jig (stupid) or one of the cutter blades flew off the cutter head.



odfrank said:


> Make sure your blades are razor sharp.


Brand new. No issue there.



odfrank said:


> Try working from different directions.


I noticed more tear out before I made the zero clearance insert (for obvious reasons). I NEVER move the board from back to front on the table saw. If I fold the board down like you see in the first picture, then push the board away from me, I get more tear out than if I just fold the board down in the first picture (which is the opposite of what I thought would happen), then fold it down like in the second picture, then push between the two. I've tried just about every option.



odfrank said:


> Try a shallow cut and then a deeper cut.


I was really hoping you wouldn't say that.


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## No-sage (Mar 14, 2009)

Does your blade have too big clearance on your table insert? It's hard to see from the picture, but a zero clearance table insert should help.

It might also be from lowering the work into the blade on each side. Anytime the workpiece is above, or unsupported by the table, there can be tearout.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

No-sage said:


> Does your blade have too big clearance on your table insert?


Naw.












No-sage said:


> It might also be from lowering the work into the blade on each side. Anytime the workpiece is above, or unsupported by the table, there can be tearout.


Well, I have to lower it on the one side. When I tried then pushing the wood into the blade, I got more tear out than when I lowered it on the other side.


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## WISHBONE (Sep 15, 2010)

Mr. Hogan, a r.hand saw tilts to the right, a l. hand saw tilts to the left. so it seems that it would work well for handholds. building stairs back in the 70's, the right side skirt board we cut normal & the left side we had to back into the board.( very tricky) sometime in the late 70's or early 80's I found a left hand circular saw. it made those hard cuts very easy. my dad didn't believe in bad joints or using molding to cover up bad work. I never cut hand holds, I just use a piece of 1x2 or something & the bees have not complained yet. have a googd nite.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Wishbone... That is what I have been told, but, a left hand saw is hard to find. I have been asking around and have not found anyone that has one.

I cut mine with the right hand saw and have the tilt set on 20 degrees. That makes a slight convex handle, which i like better than the undercut. I don't wear gloves, and the undercut hurts my fingers. It is like picking up a box with a razor blade. Perhaps if you wear gloves the undercut would not be bad.

cchoganjr


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## WISHBONE (Sep 15, 2010)

mr. Hogan, I called the tool shed in Greenville,s.c 864-233-6185, they have a milwaulke 71/4" left hand for 149.00. he said all worm drive saws are left hand, but worm drives are real heavy. we use saws all day every day & Makita out lasts everything else. I don't like undercuts either, that's why I use a 3/4 slat or a 2x4. I don't wear gloves either, but do have them close by. I do use a veil since I got stung in the eyeball about3 years ago. thanks, randy williams


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Wishbone... I am with you on the veil.. I ALWAYS wear a veil and I absolutely insist when someone is in my yard splitting or inspecting bees that they wear a veil. I too keep gloves handy if they get rowdy, but only really use them in harvesting honey and if I am in a hurry.

Thanks Randy... I like the hand hold that my $39.00 Skil brand makes. It has made a few thousand hand holds and I have only changed the blade one time and that was because I found a stiffer blade. The one that was on the saw when I made the U-Tube video was a thin blade and would flex some, and it did not have teeth inserts. I found out that a stiffer blade, with inserts, made a nicer cut.

cchoganjr


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

odfrank said:


> Why don't I see a cutter for making a nice triangle on foundationless frames?
> Oh now I see it on the Blades site, only $300+ to get set up.


It's just a rip blade set to 45 degrees. Make two passes. $20 at HD.
http://www.myoldtools.com/Bees/frames/


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## racer102 (May 27, 2013)

Check this page out I use it all the time he is good. Made my hand holds just like these and the look profesonial

http://www.michiganbees.org/beekeeping/in-the-beekeepers-workshop/


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## WISHBONE (Sep 15, 2010)

my daughters gave me a ultrabreeze jacket after the eyeball sting. eyeball sting was not bad at all, minor pain for 2 or 3 hours, then it cleared up. but it scared us for fear of loosing the eye. stings don't bother much anyway. most of the time I don't even know when I get stung. that jacket is the best thing since sliced bread.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

WISHBONE said:


> is the best thing since sliced bread.


WISHBONE... actually I am a big fan of sliced bread.

cchoganjr


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