# Selective Breeding



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Well, people who seem to be knowledgeable report that queens mate _while flying_, so I don't believe you can expect mating to occur _inside _a nuc.


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## pndwind (Feb 17, 2013)

Here is a picture of the scientific process. I think it's pretty neat.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Perhaps you could put the virgin queen and selected drones in a wind tunnel to provide the flying environment for controlled mating. That may be other factors such as cloud/tree/ground images (as seen by a virgin queen during her mating flight(s)), smells, atmospheric pressure, humidity, etc that would need to be controlled for optimal results.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

that sound more expensive than a lab and a syringe.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

db_land said:


> Perhaps you could put the virgin queen and selected drones in a wind tunnel to provide the flying environment for controlled mating. That may be other factors such as cloud/tree/ground images (as seen by a virgin queen during her mating flight(s)), smells, atmospheric pressure, humidity, etc that would need to be controlled for optimal results.


Don't forget the cost of flowers, an elegant dinner with wine and the cost of the rented nuc box.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> an elegant dinner with wine 


Make that _mead!_


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## Beeonefarms (Nov 22, 2013)

You could always try it .. if it works ( dont think it would ) but IF it did oh the stories you could tell how you proved the masses incorrect....


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

I think it has all been tried... Except maybe the wind tunnels.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I suspect that if it would work you would never find a queen that didn't get mated because of weather. She would just mate in the hive since pretty much all hives have drones.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I know of some places the wind tunnel could be tried. A lot of them setting around idle.


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

Build a really, really tall greenhouse. Pipe in some soft music, you will be all set!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is it possible, can this be done, to take a virgin queen, put it into a closed ventilated "NUC" box, with a select number of drones from the hive you want to breed from.

No. She will not mate except while flying.


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## modonnell (Jun 16, 2013)

Ha, ha, Marigolds, Music and Meade, what a romantic mind picture, i remember a night like that, that was 26 years ago, now married 25 years, my God, what a fantastic time   ( to the same Marigolds, Music, Meade Lovely Young Lady from 26 years ago, she hasn't changed a Jot )
Anyway, i digress.
Thank you all for your replies, i have been beekeeping for two to three years now, you know how your mind wanders from time to time, sitting here a couple of nights ago, after a fantastic July 4th weekend, nothing much to do, so i started drinking Bacardi & Coke and started thinking ( dangerous, i know ).
I'm too old, my fingers are too badly beaten, my eyes too blurred ( glasses not strong enough )to do the turkey baster method, (if there are any people here that that remark offends, sorry, but it is funny  )
So. How would people like Brother Adam have done it, did he just let his queens go and mate, if so, she could have, would have mated with any old drone, therefore, there can be no such thing as a "pure" Buckfast queen bee.
If these are just ramblings of an old drunkard, sorry, ( not really  ), or am i so far off the mark that there is no such thing as a true Russian, Buckfast, Italian, Carniolan, Caucasian, Queen etc.

Again, thank you all for the funny and serious answers, i really do appreciate it. ( Ha, wind tunnel )


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

One approach to controlling which drones a virgin queen might mate with involves _drone saturation_ (hives scattered over a relatively large area). More on that here:
http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/files/articles/Bee_Culture/BC2006-06.pdf


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Brother Adam was in a closed mating area, no other beehives in the area at all.


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## mpgreer (Feb 25, 2014)

i was only just reading ABC/XYZ about a 3' mating chamber covered in a dome of reflective aluminum flooded with natural light. the queen is tethered and the drones focus on her in this featureless chamber. it said they were successful, but doesn't say how successful. fascinating but doesn't seem like a great way to go. (cite rossignol, royce and stringer, bee science 2:77-81, 1992)


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

If you are serious about selective breeding (that is, you have a genetic goal in mind and you have bees with the traits you are looking for) I'd suggest reading Harry Laidlaw's book, Contemporary Queen Rearing, plan a breeding program, and making up some of the queen and drone shipping cages he shows in the photos. Figure on 25 drones per queen, and equal numbers of worker attendants and drones in the drone chamber.

Send a "dry run" off to Honeybee Insemination Service, 455 Carnica Way, Coupeville, Washington, 98239. Take notes on the timing of the shipments. When your timing is figured out, ship off the virgin queens and "lucky" drones and let Dr. Cobey and Dr. Lawrence do the deed. They are teaching classes this month and next (July and August) there on Whidbey Island, so it would be a great time to call and make arrangements. Have your nucs and your Laidlaw queen introduction cages ready upon return of your inseminated queens.

Incidentally, the 2-Day Intensive Class is $850.00 per person - limited to 2 or 3 people, the Advanced class is for fine-tuning your skills after you've been doing it a while, costs $430. Equipment rental is $200, applicable to purchase. There is even accomodation there on the island.* HIGHLY RECOMMENDED FOR THE SERIOUS BREEDER!!! * www.honeybeeinsemination.com

Another great resource is Latshaw Apiaries, 4033 Castle Road, Alexandria, Ohio, 43001. Check out his website as well - www.latshawapiaries.com especially his "resources" pages. 

Another address for Latshaw Apiaries is also listed as 6050 Harlem Road, New Albany, Ohio, 43054. It might be a good idea to call (614) 855-9065 before shipping.

I can say this - open breeding/drone flooding will very likely take a lot more years to achieve a genetic goal than will instrumental insemination. Also a big savings in years can be had by starting with excellent stock in the first place. I.I. also allows it to be done with far fewer bee resources than with drone flooding, as well as the advantage of your apiary associating with some of the best people in the business.

That aside, if you still prefer open mating - Ray Marler drops the right name - Brother Adam. Read his books, Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey, Breeding the Honeybee, and In Search of the Best Strains of Honeybees. He'll put you on the right track for an open-mating program.

Wind tunnels? Well, if you are designing a robotic bee...but I don't think their mechanical endophallus is working as of yet. You might end up with a robodrone layer. (I hate when that happens!):scratch:


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## modonnell (Jun 16, 2013)

My God, isn't a little education a fantastic thing !!!

Thank you all for your answers & input, plenty of food for thought, sad isn't it, the older you get the hungrier you get, as they say, youth is waited on the young, anyway, again i digress ( I'm good at that ).
I'm always trying to think of something new or different (a tinkerer), as Dominic said, it's all been tried.

Lots of fantastic information here, and plenty to read and follow up on.
Too many repliers, viewers to call out individually, so :-
Thank you all for a fun and very educational topic, i love this forum :applause:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

modonnell said:


> Been thinking.


Don't. Don't think, read. Learn something about how things work before you start fiddling around w/ such ideas. If what you thought of worked people would do it and would have been doing it for years. Sorry if that seems like me trying to stifle creativity. You have to know the rules before you can break them. You have to have something to work with before you can be constructively creative.

You might as well put a queen and some drones in a beaker and shake them up until the drones male parts pop out and hope that the queen gets some sperm on her that some how migrate inside her. Nah, I don't think I'll Post that, someone might get offended.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Don't think, read.


I guess that's a short (rude??) summary of my post!  My English composition teacher (and perhaps Strunk & White!) would be proud of your succinct writing style.

Wisecracks aside, selective breeding, and now genetically modified bees  are making a promising future, or rather, present. I encourage all methods, highly-selected drone saturation in bee-poor areas, Instrumental Insemination, and gene splicing. The latter needs to be done in a controlled manner so as NOT to repeat anything like the 1956 accidental release of Africanized Honey Bees in Brazil (NOTE: That did NOT involve GMO's, having preceded genetically modified bees by 58 years), but it needs to be done. 

Consider that GMO bees can be given qualities supporting a high likelihood of survival in many diverse environments in as little as 16 days using genetic modification. (Granted, it takes a few years of evaluating them, as in all cases.)

This amount of genetic progress might require better than 10 years using I.I. 

Open-mating with drone saturation in a bee-void may take, say maybe 35 years to make the same progress.

Open-mating with not enough drone colony resources in heavily feral bee-populated areas might NEVER make genetic progress toward a goal (a possible outcome), but will very likely take even longer than ideal drone saturation. For argument sake, suppose that's 50 years.

50 years equals about 18,260 days. Let's see, that's 18,260 days vs. 16 days...that's about 1,145 times more time-efficient, and infinitely more efficient if no progress at all was made using a poor open-mating yard. 50 years from now, we may not have any bees left...so, Green Movement Protest marchers, shouldn't we at least try genetically engineered bees? 

At least can we get more general acceptance of I.I. (about 3.5X to 5X more time efficient in this model), which has been around since at least the 1930's or 1940's, and hasn't caused anything but good progress so far? 

Yet these Green Movement yippies call the excellent work on the genetically-modified Atlantic salmon "Frankenfish"! (They're delicious, by the way, I can't tell them from unmodified salmon.) But, that's what you get with people who don't thoroughly understand a subject reacting out of fear.

But, I digress....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

kilocharlie said:


> I guess that's a short (rude??) summary of my post!  My English composition teacher (and perhaps Strunk & White!) would be proud of your succinct writing style.


Thanks, kilo. So many Threads, so little time. Not a lot between the ears.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Your trailer quote (was that Homer Simpson's voice?) says it all. I love it.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

pndwind said:


> Here is a picture of the scientific process. I think it's pretty neat.
> View attachment 12266


I doubt the Queen bee thinks it is neat


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

She's on drugs during the event. I doubt she thinks anything.


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## oldiron56 (Mar 9, 2009)

youth is wasted on the young,,,,,,,,,,,,Pete


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Lance Armstrong, step aside. Now there will be testing for CO2 usage instead of just drugs and blood doping.

Actually, I suppose the queens rather enjoy it, getting a CO2 rush, although many of them go out on a mating flight after I.I., anyways.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Kilo - Is that comment about queens going out for mating flight a jest or do they really do that?

Yikes so that I.I. breed filly might head out and cross with some of the mean locals, that aint what I am after.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Many II queens have a wing clipped, and an entrance excluded before and after the second CO2 treatment to help keep the potential for open mating from occurring. It potentially could happen, but doesn't happen often...  FWIW


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Not joking at all - last I read, the percent of I.I. queens varied somewhat in the studies that noted some going on mating flights after the insemination. I think I recall reading that breaking the CO2 treatments up into 2 five-minute doses seemed to reduce the tendency to go on post-I.I. mating flights, but my memory is not that clear, I'll have to read it again. 

I just bought one of the last copies of Laidlaw & Page's Queen Rearing and Bee Breeding, and that info may well be in there, in which case I'll report back soon, if not, it is likely in Laidlaw & Eckert's Queen Rearing.

Either way, YES, some queens do go out and mate after they get inseminated. This is not necessarily considered a bad thing, just more genetic diversity in the hive. We make too many queens and pick from the best and repeat the process...etc. Any "bad" genetics just get eliminated next round (serendipitous "good" genetics are selelctively included), and the picking standards get a narrower window until a genetic goal is reached.


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