# 101312 usurpation attempt



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

View attachment 3287
View attachment 3288


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

squarepeg said:


> View attachment 3287
> View attachment 3288


these are hives 1 - 3, from left to right.

3 was the intended target for usurpation, but they turned on 2, after i blocked 3's entrance.

notice the small beard on the lower left corner of 2

1 seemed to be oblivious to the whole thing.

the queen was found on the ground, in the area directly beneath the hives, and between 1 and 2.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

anybody care to venture a guess as to what strain of queen that is? my bees are sort of dark, but not that dark.


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## Dragonfly130 (Dec 12, 2008)

Your looking for guesses so I'll take a stab and say old time European black bee's.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

hmmm. maybe, huh. my neighbor says he used to see these occaisionally many moons ago. he called them 'german black bees'. i need to call him. are these the same as amm?


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

From what ive read the german blacks are pretty aggressive!!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

BeeGhost said:


> From what ive read the german blacks are pretty aggressive!!


yeah, that's what i remember my neighbor saying about them too, (haven't had a chance to talk to him yet). since ahb's are bad about usurping hives and also mean, i am wondering if this is a combined genetic trait shared by the mean old black bees and ahb.

i am also wondering if i could have dna testing done on this queen. i though about checking with the folks down at auburn university about it. 

it would be nice to know if this is a survivor of those old dark bees, or maybe the ingress of ahb genes.


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

Looks just like it would bee local feral stock. Ask MB, he talks about his local feral bees being dark.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i am assuming that these are feral, maybe from the old dark bee i have heard about. which mb?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

just discovered that wikipedia identifies the 'german black bee' as amm. how cool is that. plus, they are described as being 'runny' on the frames, another characteristic in common with ahb.


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

What is amm?


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

amm = apis mellifera mellifera


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Years ago I used to work with AMM's, they did not try to usurp other hives.

Also, if it was a usurpation attempt, the dead queen would likely be from the target hive rather than the attacker. I think the queen is a carniolan, not that it's really possible to tell from the pic, but just there's not many AMM's around now, anywhere varroa has gone.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Fusion Power on this site says there are Amm in his area...he's in AL or LA.

I would guess they're AHB if it was truly an attempt at usurpation. Wing vein patterns can be checked for % probability of african genes.




Oldtimer said:


> Years ago I used to work with AMM's, they did not try to usurp other hives.
> 
> Also, if it was a usurpation attempt, the dead queen would likely be from the target hive rather than the attacker. I think the queen is a carniolan, not that it's really possible to tell from the pic, but just there's not many AMM's around now, anywhere varroa has gone.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Wouldn't Occum's Razor indicate AHB. A. AHB are known to do this, usurp. B. German Black Bees, aka apis mellifera mellifera are not known to usurp. C. Amm are extremely rare is not nonexistant anymore. Therefore, does it not follow that this is probably an AHB invasion?

Like Michael Palmer wrote, they can be tested to determine %AHB. Collect a sample of bees from under the bottom board into a jar of alchohol and send them to be tested. Check w/ your State Apiarist for how best to do that.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

oldtimer, the queen is dead because i killed her. she was in a very small cluster below the hives, apparantly waiting for the usurpation to play out.

mp, i would like to have someone check this queen out, any suggestions? fusion power is in the next county over, maybe he will chime in.

mark, luckily, i caught this happening not long after it started. there were maybe 50 - 100 dead bees on the ground below hive 3. i thought about saving some, but i assumed it would have been a mix of usurpers and hive 3 bees.

another thought.... there have been several very small swarms issuing from hives in my area within this last several weeks. i determined that one of these from my yard was not a reproductive or overcrowding swarm, but rather a supercedure where the queen left with a few 'loyal attendents', as walt wright put it.

could this usurpation attempt really just have been one of these fall supercedures desperate for a place to go?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The invasion of another hive is not a characteristic of any bees other than AHB as far as I know. Collect as many bees as you can and have them tested. That's the only real way to know for sure.

Good luck.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

mark, that's what i thought too, but then i found this:

http://www.honeybeesuite.com/usurpation-when-one-colony-takes-over-another/

could it be that some of the genes, and some of the traits, are trickling up this far?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

ok, i was able to rake out at least 200 dead bees that were clogging the entrance after i took the screen off. now i have to figure out where to send the sample.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

old timer, after thinking a bit more about what you said, maybe it is possible that the queen i caught was the original, and had already been chased out. she only had a couple of dozen attendents with her. most of the usurpers were crawling and bearding on the hive.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Beltsville?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

maybe michael. i call them tomorrow. i saw a documentary about using wing morphology to identify ahb, seems like the lab was at a university somewhere in the southwestern u.s.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Looks to me to bee a German black queen. Very fiesty and good honey makers. Love that hive stand btw. Did you weld that up yourself?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Couldn't this also just been a virgin coming back from mating? This is very common since lots of hives will replace queens in the fall. What makes you think it was a usurpation attempt? I've never witnessed such an event. I'm not saying you're wrong, just seems pretty rare to me. Of course I'm outside AHB territory. Have you opened hive 3 to see if there were open queen cells? I hope you're right.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> mark, that's what i thought too, but then i found this:
> 
> http://www.honeybeesuite.com/usurpation-when-one-colony-takes-over-another/
> 
> could it be that some of the genes, and some of the traits, are trickling up this far?


Well, that's a new one on me. I guess I should read more.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> Beltsville?


Send them to Beltsville and they will send them to Tucson, I believe. That's why you should check w/ your State Apiarist to see for sure where to send them.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

it was a no brainer something was bad wrong.

i could hear the commotion all the way across my yard. when i got to the hive, there were many hundreds of bees in the air, and all over the hive, and even bearding. not to mention all the fighting at the entrance and the 100 or so dead bees on the ground.

my first thought was, robbing! oh s...! and the thought of instant karma came to mind because of all the robbing i talked about in the other thread.

but i soon realized that it would have more likely been because of me.

what i mean is i moved this hive to the stand last weekend, from about 100' away.

it was in a nearby location, which just happened to be where it was caught, by flying into my swarm trap on 042612.

it was a small swarm, about a half a deep of bees, i gave it a frame of mostly capped brood and that was it.

without feeding, it was able to fill the deep and one and a half mediums. that top super is 100% drawn and 70% full. the bottom super was added with foundation only, to serve as slatted racks, but there is brood comb now drawn on it extending the brood nest part of the way down on the middle most frames.

my mistake, (or possible mistake, who knows?), is that instead of waiting until later in the season, i went ahead and moved them last week.

it was my first time to relocate a hive within my home yard without first taking the hive five miles away to my out yard.

i followed MB's (micheal bush) advice and used leafy cedar branch tips stapled over the entrance. it worked fine, and no bees were left at the old site.

but, i realized that i forced a 'colony decision' (per MB) on the bees, by making them reoriente. 

i also realize that the usurpers could have still found and invaded the young colony at the original site, so, we'll never know.

anyway, i'm thinking robbing, and decide to close them up and move them, when out of the blue, my mentee says, 'hey, look at the pile of bees under the hives".

hmmm, i says, the only time i see them doing that is when there is a queen.

so, low and behold, there her majesty was. caught her, and maybe missed out on on letting some rare genetics into my yard but, but i figured i didn't really want them anyway if the traits included usurpation.

do i do right?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

update:

still a little fighting today and some dead bees, but not as many. i guess those usurpers just had no where else to go.

i think it's like a newspaper combine without the newspaper.

i found the email i got from beltsville regarding my afb sample i sent earlier this year.

i sent a new email tonite, with a link to this thread, and asked for advice on how to get the bees tested.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Maybe you already wrote about this, but did you open this hive and look to see how things are inside? What did you see?


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

I was thinking the same thing. A top feeder with an entrance would be something I would not have. Robbing trigger.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

mark, yes after i screened off the entrance saturday, and after things settled down a bit, i popped the top.

there were relatively few bees in the top super, definitely not any robbers there.

i lifted the top super off and estimated it was half to 3/4 full by weight. things looked calm on the top bars of the deep, which appeared to be full of bees, and no fighting going on there. i then closed it back up.

ironically, this is the only hive out of 18 that i haven't done a full fall inspection on. i wanted to wait until after i moved it, as to not break the propilis before moving. now, i'll wait a week or so, and make sure i still have a queen.

keth, this hive has never had a feeder of any kind on it.


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## Rolande (Aug 23, 2010)

While not commenting on this specific incident, I have seen mention of amm taking part in 'usurpation' of other hives in the book 'Reflections on Beekeeping' isbn: 0904846826 by Willie Robson, a long standing commercial guy from the north of England. His reference is to the local/amm bees which his family has been keeping for several decades. I don't have a copy to hand so can't be more specific with regards to his actual comments. Just thought that it was worth a mention in the context of this thread.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very interesting, thanks rolande!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> ironically, this is the only hive out of 18 that i haven't done a full fall inspection on. i wanted to wait until after i moved it, as to not break the propilis before moving. now, i'll wait a week or so, and make sure i still have a queen.


Don't wait. I think you may have some internal problems which can only be determined by an actual look at the brood frames. I certainly wouldn't wait a week.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i share your concern mark. i have been seeing regular orientation flights out of this hive in the weeks preceding the usurpation. also, it has been putting on weight as good or better than the other first year colonies. i will wait a week, so i can look for fresh eggs, and know that the queen wasn't killed saturday.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Okay Best of luck.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

mark, many thanks, i really do appreciate your input.

update:

just went out to take a look and,

it appears that things are back to normal in terms of no new fighting or no new dead bees.

i am relieved to some degree, i was worried this might deteriorate into a robbing event (by the stronger hives in my yard).

my plan is to do a full inspection friday or saturday, to make sure that 1)they still have a queen, and 2)that they are ready for winter. hopefully there won't be any bad surprises.

oh yeah, on the testing, after an email exhange with beltsville, i was referred to tucson. i have now emailed tucson with pictures and a link to this thread.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Regarding the pic of the queen in post #2. What is the substance at the tip of the abdomen? Is that a result of you killing her, or could that be a mating sign? 

I have to concur with Mark. I'd get into this hive soon and seen what's going on.


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## Davidnewbeeboxbuilder (Oct 6, 2012)

I was wandering if i was the only one to see a swarm leave for a week and then they came back lol and tried to get back in the same hive.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

update:

well it appears that what is left of the usurping(?) swarm is doing its best at trying to assimilate into my other hives.

unfortunately for them, my hives aren't accepting any new members at this time. 

i have left voice messages and sent an email to tucson, but they haven't answered back.


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## Rolande (Aug 23, 2010)

squarepeg said:


> update:
> 
> i have left voice messages and sent an email to tucson, but they haven't answered back.


Have you tried downloading the morph wing etc software -think it's all available free online, and scanning the wings into your computer? Seems quite common for European beekeepers trying to maintain certain lines to use 'do it yourself' software.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very cool rolande. no, i don't have the technology nor the time to do that.

after discussing this with a very knowledgable beekeeper, i have about decided that the most likely genetic make up of these bees is very mixed.

it is doubtful that they are pure amm or ahb.

i think it's also likely that this was a late season supercedure swarm, that maybe realized its only chance of survival was to take over another hive. 

if tucson calls and is interested, i'll send them. otherwise i'll chalk it up to an interesting day in the beeyard.

i'll let ya'll know how the inspection goes this weekend, and thanks again for all the help.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

"The invasion of another hive is not a characteristic of any bees other than AHB as far as I know" Not quite true...Apis Mellifera capensis is a pretty sneaky little creature too. 

http://entomology.ifas.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/cape_honey_bee.htm


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

rb, fascinating link. never heard of them before.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

ya'll aint gonna believe this. remember the neighbor i mentioned that i wanted to ask about his experience years ago with those german black bees?

well, guess what? i just talked to him and he had exactly the same thing happen about 1 week prior to mine.

yes, he had a (presumed) usurpation attempt on one of his hives too. in his case the small (presumed supercedure) swarm was right on the side of one of his hives! he caught the swarm and hived it, and is going to overwinter it as a nuc.

now here's the really interesting part, that queen was as yellow as she could be. hmmmm.....


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Interesting thread...For the last 2 weeks I noticed what initially seemed like robbing activity, was actually some small size swarms trying to take over some of my hives.

Bees would fly chaotically around the hive cover, then cluster between the hive body and the hive cover. The size of a grapefruit or smaller. I noticed this type of activity for a while now, but one day I shook the cluster on the ground and I noticed a blue marked ( 2010 ?), big beautiful queen. I did not have any blue marked queens...so it must have come from someone else. Some of these small size swarms would appear to challenge the entrance in my hives...almost like trying to take over. I heard about AHB usurping activities, but I wondered if non AHB try this "mischief"? 

Reading this thread, it appears that they certainly do. As a "strategy"... to try to make it through the winter...makes sense. Why hang on a tree branch, waste energy on trying to find a new "home" and start from scratch....when all the nectar flow is over and chances to make it through the winter are very small. Take your best fighters, and if you are able to take over a well stocked for winter colony...you've got it made. Might get killed in the process, but there is a chance...

Upon checking my hives, there was no sign of swarming in them. All queens in place, and plus, the bee population, size wise, is in no space constrain to swarm at all. There is no flow to speak of...goldenrod was dismal. Also, I have no hives that are weak ( yet) that would get taken over by beetles and/or moths and decide to abscond. I noticed this type of activity in my 2 bee yards that are at least 25 miles apart.

I caught two of these strange swarms and placed them in a nuc box, just to observe what they will do...The queens do start laying, but because there is not enough bees, if I feed them, they are becoming robbing targets. At this time of the year I did not want to take frames of brood from other hives for fears of weakening them.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

how 'bout that. there have been a few other of these small swarms that i didn't catch for the same reason, too little too late to make a hive with.

it looks like the strategy of these swarms, like you say, is that a remote chance (taking over a hive) is better than no chance (starting from scratch at the end of the fall flow).

i also didn't want to keep the usurping queen, thinking that's not a trait i want to propogate.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I think you should have those bees lab id'd. There has been suspicion for a long time there are some capensis genetics in the US, and there is so called AHB genetics, in their pure form both those bees have golden queens.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Oldtimer said:


> I think you should have those bees lab id'd. There has been suspicion for a long time there are some capensis genetics in the US, and there is so called AHB genetics, in their pure form both those bees have golden queens.


i've got them in alcohol, but so far no reply from tucson. wing morphology is apparantly what is used for ahb, how is capensis id'd?


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## bbrowncods (Oct 10, 2012)

Riskybizz said:


> "The invasion of another hive is not a characteristic of any bees other than AHB as far as I know" Not quite true...Apis Mellifera capensis is a pretty sneaky little creature too.


A social parasite.. very interesting!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> i've got them in alcohol, but so far no reply from tucson. wing morphology is apparantly what is used for ahb, how is capensis id'd?


Well peg, first you have to go to South Africa and colllect some bees before you can id them. That's where they are from, South Africa. The Cape Bee. Cape Town, South Africa. I'm sure someone else can give you morphological information about its physical characteristics.

I doubt that we have any apis capensis here in the US.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> I doubt that we have any apis capensis here in the US.


Not many people think there is.

However. Dee Lusby, who would deny she has any cape genetics, did an experiment where she made, best memory serves, something around 18 hopelessly queenless nucs induced to have laying workers. From these laying workers the bees were able to raise fertile queens in the majority of the nucs. The experiment is written up in her section here on beesource.

I know it's claimed that extremely rarely a female egg can be produced by an EHB laying worker but in a lifetime with bees I've never seen it it must be rare in the extreme. For Dee to have this happen in the majority of the nucs in her experiment, to me, can only mean one thing, cape genetics.

I know that's controversial and many won't agree, my opinion only. But to anyone inquisitive read up on cape bees, preferably at a more advanced level not just general lifestyle.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Dee has observed this behavior for many decades in her bees.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

I did not mean to suggest in my post that capensis is here in the U.S. It is however, my understanding, that technically other strains of mellifera do have the same capabilities. I am aware of the Lusby experiment. Perhaps she has some form of mutant strain. Anything is possible. Quite frankly the abilities of the cape bee is astonishing.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

When there was a thread on this maybe a year ago, not sure, another beekeeper described how he had tried to help a friend with 700 hives save them. What he described, to me, sounded like a textbook case of cape bee invasion. Eventually the beekeeper lost every last hive and went out of business.

Dee claims her bees are not africanised. But DNA testing has shown they have african genetics. Cape bees are from africa, near where the origional AHB came from. In my opinion, there is probably some cape genetics in the US, but not enough to reconstitute a complete cape bee.

It's also telling that Dee has been running seminars for decades teaching people how to become a commercial beekeeper (700 + hives), using her methods. But in all that time many of her pupils have tried, but not one other person has achieved it. Could it be there is something different about her bees.

Having said all that I must add the disclaimer that I don't even live in the US. But based on material I've read it's a reasonable conclusion there is some cape genetics in the US.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> The experiment is written up in her section here on beesource.


I didn't know that Dee Lusby had a section here on beesource. Where is it?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Check this, links many of her articles including the thelotyky experiment I mentioned.

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/ed-dee-lusby/


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Thelotyky is known to happen, and in fact it may more than most of us think. Every hear someone say "I KNOW there were no eggs in there, no queen, but suddenly when I bought a new queen I found queen cells"? Ever think one of those laying workers laid a diploid egg? If so, suddenly the bees will be making a new queen!

It is quite rare in european honey bees, quite common in cape bees (because the queens often get blown out to sea on mating flights). As noted, cape bees will decimate AMM apiaries by usurpation and excessive queen production and swarming. They appear to make decent honey crops in South Africa, but elsewhere are a serious pest.

Peter


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

psfred said:


> Thelotyky is known to happen, and in fact it may more than most of us think. Every hear someone say "I KNOW there were no eggs in there, no queen, but suddenly when I bought a new queen I found queen cells"? Ever think one of those laying workers laid a diploid egg?


Yes, I hear that sort of stuff constantly, because I sell queens and constantly get called by people assuring me there is no queen in the hive, when from what they say, I suspect there is. It's all about timing and observation, and people get it wrong all the time.
Sometimes I've gone through it with people to try to explain why they cannot introduce a bought queen at the moment because they might have a virgin, or some other problem. But sometimes they just DEMAND i send them one, if so I do, but if I hear back it is almost invariably a sad story.
As to queen cells in a queenless hive, happens all the time the bees use eggs from laying workers. But the larvae will be male and will not survive until just after being capped. Over my life of beekeeping I've dealt with multi thousands of nucs that are queenless periodically, I've never once seen a confirmed case of thelotyky. Not that it couldn't have happened and I didn't notice, but it would have to be EXTREMELY rare, if it happens in EHB at all.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

update:

still no word from tucson. if anyone out there knows of another resource i can turn to to get this queen and workers id'd i would be grateful.

a little too cold and very windy today for an inspection, there wasn't much flying, most cleansing flights i think.

but it only took about 3 - 4 days for the ursurping workers to starve or die in battle.

all looks normal again, the hive is heavy, and i'll look for queen evidence at the first opportunity.

regarding this diploid laying by workers, i can't say that i have seen that in three summers i've had to look at these bees.

in fact the bred from feral mutts that i have seem not to develop laying workers for a pretty long time. in the one case of laying worker i've had, the brood was spotty and definitly drone.

the other trait i find intriguing about these cape bees, is multiple 'queens' laying in their own sections of the hive with their own nurse bees. wow.

i do see this happening in my hives, when it is what appears to be a 'seamless supercedure'. i.e. the mother and daughter queens lay simultaneously until one finally either dies or leaves.

i think these small late fall swarms are supercedure swarms, and that they are using the usurping option as a last resort.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If they are doing a morphological test it will take a while, weeks. They do a lot of testing there. Not only AHB verification.

If they are doing a DNA test it will take even longer. Don't expect instant results.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

it's ok if it takes a while mark. nothing is hindging on the results. i've just not got a reply at all from tucson, after leaving a voicemail, and an email. maybe they are too busy, or just not interested in these bees. i plan on calling beltsville back on monday, since they referred me to tucson, and see if they will help me get a response from tucson. i think they are all usda.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I had a large swarm try to move into one of my hives last year, after a few hours they went elsewhere. 
Dr. Wyatt Mangum wrote an article in the American bee journal on usurpation several months ago. It seems its not that uncommon in European honeybees, he watched it happen several times in I think he lives in North Carolina.
Several of my carniolan queens have been as dark as the ones pictured.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

update:

so it warmed up today, and i went into hive 3, hopefully for its final fall inspection, and hopefully to find out that the ursurpers were unsuccessful in killing the resident queen.

i waited one week to check, because i knew that all i would have to see a good egg pattern, and i would know she was alright, even if i did not see her.

well, not only were there no eggs, but there wasn't any brood at all. evidently, this hive has been queenless for at least 3 weeks.

there was plenty of honey, pollin and a cluster of about seven frames in the deep, and about 1/3 of the medium super had capped honey in it.

luckily, i had given my bee supplier a heads up a few weeks ago, and told him that i might need a queen or two as i went through these fall inspections. turns out i do need one, i've already called him, and will pick it up tomorrow and introduce her. 

hopefully there's still time for a round or two of winter bee brooding. there are lots of cells polished up and ready, so, here's hopin'.......

so the bottom line here is:

1) i didn't see any tell tale signs in these past weeks that these bees were not brooding. lots of pollen and nectar coming in, regular orientation flights, ect. lesson learned is you can't count on entrance observation 100%.

2) i thought i was doing the colony a favor by thwarting the ursupation. turns out the bees would have been better off had the ursurping queen made it in, and i would have had some nice feral genetics (probably) in my yard. lesson learned is that i'm not sure what i would do if this happens again. maybe save the bees until i checked the hive out first?

ps: will call my state apiarist monday and ask about id'ing the bees.

many thanks to all.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

KQ6AR said:


> I had a large swarm try to move into one of my hives last year, after a few hours they went elsewhere.
> Dr. Wyatt Mangum wrote an article in the American bee journal on usurpation several months ago. It seems its not that uncommon in European honeybees, he watched it happen several times in I think he lives in North Carolina.
> Several of my carniolan queens have been as dark as the ones pictured.


Funny you mentioned that Dan, my son and I were putting our gear on at the bee yard today and I looked up just in time to see a swarm come into the yard from across the field. We quickly got positioned and the swarm was all around us! They tried moving in as we seen fighting on the landing boards of almost all the hives. Then it faded to the east side of the yard and landed in a sage bush. I told Wyatt to go and observe it while I put my last feed bags on for the year. He wanted to hive it but I didn't have any equipment there and I told him it probably wouldn't make it anyhow since I had no extra drawn frames. 

This was the first time I have ever seen an actual swarm in flight and it was awesome!


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Squarepeg, have you checked the map (might find a link, or google it) that shows the spread of the AHB? The odds are you got some or some of their genetics... I know they've moved into Arkansas, south of me, but haven't come north here yet... And with them in Florida, the odds are you've got them in your neighborhood.
Regards,
Steven


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

steve, the closest confirmed case of ahb to me was in south georgia, just north of the florida panhandle, which is several hundred miles south of me.

i bought a 4 frame nuc this spring, and rehived into a 10 frame box. they ate my lunch on the first inspection. had to requeen.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> mark, that's what i thought too, but then i found this:


Is it summer in Alabama?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Is it summer in Alabama?


wadya mean 'ol friend?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> mark, that's what i thought too, but then i found this:
> 
> http://www.honeybeesuite.com/usurpat...-over-another/


Seems like there were a hundred post all at once.
My comment refers to this link.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

still don't get it ace...


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## BeeZerk (Mar 27, 2012)

Usurpation was thought to be a AHB trait but apparently it happens w/ European bees more often than first thought. Most people just don't know what they are seeing. I heard a lecture by Dr. Wyatt Mangum & actually saw it happen in one of my hives. Sometimes you can't stop nature.

Here's the link to Dr. Mangum's first article on the subject. He told me to expect another this winter.
Honey Bee Biology - February 2011 by Dr. Wyatt A. Mangum
The Usurpation of Another Colony and the Evidence Leading to That Conclusion 

http://www.americanbeejournal.com/site/epage/132584_828.htm


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Link doesn't work.


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## Rolande (Aug 23, 2010)

squarepeg said:


> well, not only were there no eggs, but there wasn't any brood at all. evidently, this hive has been queenless for at least 3 weeks.
> 
> 2) i thought i was doing the colony a favor by thwarting the ursupation. turns out the bees would have been better off had the ursurping queen made it in, and i would have had some nice feral genetics (probably) in my yard. lesson learned is that i'm not sure what i would do if this happens again. maybe save the bees until i checked the hive out first?


This latest observation leads me to wonder whether your usurpation swarm was actually a mating swarm (with rightful queen) returning to their own hive. I can't of course offer a sensible suggestion for the fighting which broke out between them and the colony.

That said, Wyatt Mangums series of articles and the experiences which Willie Robson recounts (in a country where there is *no* AHB or Cape genetics so far as anyone is aware) did start me thinking about this and I did actually mention Dr.Mangums observations a couple of months ago in a thread on the Scottish beekeeping forum. We're all quite comfortable with finding supercedure queens in colonies and we're also familiar with the notion of virgins/newly mated queens going astray and ending up in other colonies after taking mating flights. It's also far from uncommon for the inhabitants of small mating nucs to either leave with a mating swarm and not return or to simply abscond at a later date. Sometimes these small swarms appear, having set up camp somewhere else but more often than not they just seem to 'vanish' from the radar. I do wonder whether there could be some overlap between these instances and usurpation which simply hasn't been credited. 

Possibly an interesting research project for someone with the time and resources. Certainly worth further thought and observation.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> still don't get it ace...


http://www.honeybeesuite.com/usurpation-when-one-colony-takes-over-another/

·	A summer swarm invades an established colony.

·	The summer swarm, which under normal circumstances could not survive the winter, overwinters on the stores collected by the usurped colony.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks rolande.

there have been five instances of these very small late summer swarms near me this season. i initially attributed them to overcrowding, and did not realize that supercedure might have been occuring.

i caught the first of these small swarms and hived it, adding resources left over from a laying worker hive, and a just a little supplemental feeding. it's now heavy for the winter and hopefully will produce next season.

another of these small swarms got stuck in the open, drawing comb on a limb that was accessible. this one was also caught, but got away.

a third was caught by my neighbor, the fourth i just let fly off, and the fifth was the topic of this thread.

i have read that some beekeepers think that fall is a good time for requeening. maybe the bees around here do to.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Is it summer in Alabama?


thanks ace. i guess it depends on what the defintion of 'is' is.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

update:

in prepping for the requeening of hive 3 today, i decided it would be a good idea to give the hive a frame of brood and fresh nurses from my strongest hive.

when i went into the strong hive to get this frame, i found that it was also broodless, even though i had seen eggs in it on 092912. indeed, it was obvious that the bees were backfilling cells that had brood in them only 3 1/2 weeks ago.

my interpretation of this is that all of the hives are ramping down their brooding for winter. 

so, my dilemma i: i am now not sure whether or not 3 is queenless, and it's not possible to use a frame of eggs to see if they make queen cells or not.

what's more, 3 had a few more dead bees from fighting on the ground again this morning.

i am happy to entertain suggestions as to what you would do. i am about to leave and go get the new queen, following the rationale that the fighting and dead bees on this hive, and this hive alone, is suggestive of queenlessness.

i do have a small hive in another yard that i might consider combining this one with as a plan b.

ps: even though i was only in my strong hive for a short time, it definitely called attention to it, had to reduce the entrance.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

update cont.

ok, the new queen (caged and marshmellowed) is in. didn't see any balling or aggressiveness toward her. time will tell.

i shared the whole story with my bee supplier, and he told me that he has see take-overs in his yard from time to time. he just lets it happen, which is probably what i should have done.

his bees are brooding down too, but haven't stopped. probably because of the artificial 'flow' he has going with his big yard feeder.

i'm glad too, because the queen i got was still laying, and if i remember mike palmer correctly, he said that the bees will accept a laying queen better than one that has not been laying.

again, many thanks to all for posting.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> i do have a small hive in another yard that i might consider combining this one with as a plan b.


If you really think it is queenless why wouldn't you make this plan A?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very good question.

i don't really 'know' if it is queenless.

the rationale for it being queenless is:

1. it was targeted as weak by the ursupers.
2. it's possible the usurpers killed the existing queen
3. no brood, (but that may be normal for this time of year).
4. continued fighting to the death.

the rationale for having a queen is:

1. by all appearances, this hive was thriving, adding weight, and didn't look any different than my other 17 hives up until the attempted take over.

so, to me, it's a split decision, with the preponderance of the evidence favoring queenlessness.

i marked the new queen to make her easier to spot. my plan is to check back in a week or so to see if she is still there. since there is no sign of a laying worker, i'll assume that if i don't see her, the original queen probably still reigns, but i still have the option to combine. if i do see her then i'll know i made the right call.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

went out to check hive 3 on my lunch break. happily, i noticed that the hive was much quieter today than is has been. i gently lifted the top cover up, checking to see if the new queen, if released yet, was there, and she was not.

the yard as whole is getting quieter as well. i am still seeing a few of the dark workers on some of the landing boards, nasanoving, i guess in an attempt to call in the scattered rest. i hive tooled them.

i am also using my perforated sheet metal to reduce the entrances on the 'noisy' hives to 1 or 2 bees, while providing for some air flow (i found that the plastic push pins make this job quick and easy).

it was 82 degrees in the beeyard today, maybe 'indian summer' ace?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

just got off the phone with my state apiarist. he want me to mail him the sample of worker bees i have preserved in alcohol.

interesting, these small, late summer swarms have been happening all over the state, many more this year than most years. the current thinking is that we have had a longer than usual season, with spring starting early, and fall coming late.

so far, no ahb found.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Squarepeg, what you have described is something I have seen many times. It is a result of a fall supersedure attempt. What the bees will do is raise 2 or 3 new queens during the fall goldenrod nectarflow. The stimulation of an unusually heavy flow will often trigger swarming if more than one new queen is available. The swarm attempt is always with a virgin queen in my experience. The bees form a very small cluster usually on the side of the colony they came from but sometimes on a colony next door. There is usually a second or third queen in the hive that will eventually mate and start to lay. I would caution you to check carefully for the new queen you installed, there is a very good chance she was put in on top of a virgin that is just ready to start laying.

I might add that when I have had this happen, there was usually something else wrong inside the colony. I have always seen evidence of either a queen failure or signs of tracheal mites and/or varroa mites in colonies that do this. I have never observed these small swarms to attempt to usurp a colony and I doubt that was the actual purpose of the small swarm you found.

DarJones


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very interesting dar.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

oops, that got posted before i got finished.

yes, that's very interesting. i assumed it was attempted usurpation because the fighting was really intense. at the end, i probably collected about 3-4 hundred bees, and there were many more that i did not collect. the first morning after, the entrance was completely clogged with bees on the inside.

as i posted, we have seen several of these small swarms around, but none have attempted to take over another hive.

also, i considered the possibility there might be a queen in there, but went ahead with the new queen, mostly because the invading bees seemed to think it was weak.

the queen i collected on the ground was pretty small, could have been a virgin.

i believe it is exactly as you describe, fall supercedure on the goldenrod flow. my concern is that the new queens haven't had a lot of drones around to mate with. i actually haven't seen one in a long time.

i would have liked to have done a more thorough inspection, but it has been hard to keep the hives open for too long.

prior to this, 17 out of my 18 hives were inspected, and found to have good brood and stores. this was the last one to get inspected.

sincere thanks for your reply.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i have been considering the points that fusion power has made, and have come up with another possible scenario for what i observed.

this colony was a swarm caught in april. i have read that swarms will oftentime supercede their queens once they start building up.

what if the colony superceded their queen, but she didn't get mated properly, and the hive got weak. 

could it be that what was happening was outright robbing, and the queen i found on the ground was the poorly mated supercedure queen, that left the hive when the robbing started?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

just did a walk through the yard, all is quiet. foraging has all but stopped, and we are supposed to get our first frost in a week or so.

it's been 48 hours, and no sign of the new queen dead on the ground, or trapped above the inner cover.

i'll check tomorrow and see if she's been released.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Fusion_power said:


> Squarepeg, what you have described is something I have seen many times. It is a result of a fall supersedure attempt. What the bees will do is raise 2 or 3 new queens during the fall goldenrod nectarflow. The stimulation of an unusually heavy flow will often trigger swarming if more than one new queen is available. The swarm attempt is always with a virgin queen in my experience. The bees form a very small cluster usually on the side of the colony they came from but sometimes on a colony next door. There is usually a second or third queen in the hive that will eventually mate and start to lay. I would caution you to check carefully for the new queen you installed, there is a very good chance she was put in on top of a virgin that is just ready to start laying.
> 
> I might add that when I have had this happen, there was usually something else wrong inside the colony. I have always seen evidence of either a queen failure or signs of tracheal mites and/or varroa mites in colonies that do this. I have never observed these small swarms to attempt to usurp a colony and I doubt that was the actual purpose of the small swarm you found.
> 
> DarJones


That's what I was trying to say in post #25.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

AstroBee said:


> Couldn't this also just been a virgin coming back from mating? This is very common since lots of hives will replace queens in the fall. What makes you think it was a usurpation attempt? I've never witnessed such an event. I'm not saying you're wrong, just seems pretty rare to me. Of course I'm outside AHB territory. Have you opened hive 3 to see if there were open queen cells? I hope you're right.


thought it was ursurpation because of all of the fighting, dead bees, bearding on the hive, and queen on the ground close by.

no queen cells found in hive. 

so far, no ahb confirmed in alabama.

queen on ground could have been a virgin, not sure.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

checked the cage today, and the new queen is still in it, dead.

so it looks like they have, or least think they have, a queen already.

hate to waste a good queen, and $20, but at least i have a little more confidence with this hive going into winter.

btw, the state apiarist has asked me to mail the sample of bees, they are going to check wing morphology on them for ahb.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

the state apiarist came by today to pick up the samples.

he told me about some bees he caught in a swarm trap this summer, that was placed near huntsville international airport.

wing morphology on the swarm was 99% positive for ahb. they are now waiting for dna testing for 100% confirmation.

he said that they have caught other swarms in the state that were positive on wing morphology, but negative on dna testing.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

The wing morphology thing is way overplayed. If you read the research upon which the method is based (I think it is on beesource), you will see that it requires a sample of the native, non-AHB population in order to calibrate the system. Of course, there is no single "native population" in the U.S., certainly not anywhere where bees are kept....and where they might exist (AMM populations in isolated areas), I don't think anyone ever did a baseline calibration with them.

deknow


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

interesting. i'm not sure what they are using for baseline at the dept. of ag. here in alabama.

but being in the lower tier of states, and with the concern about ahb spreading up from the coast, they have been actively collecting samples.

so far, i don't believe any have been identified in the state, with the closest ones identified in south georgia, just north of the florida panhandle.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i am reminded that i never got the results from the state apiarist on the bees i collected and sent to him. i'll follow up on it next week.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

If you read the papers on AHB mitochondria DNA in Texas and the process of genetic replacement, you learn that "german Black" mitochondria is a consistent 20-25% of the AHB lineage.

AHB is not strictly "African" but is a hybrid of the meanest, thoughest bees out there, and that is these 25% German Black// 75%Scutellaria crosses.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

didn't know that, very interesting!

does 'german black' = a.m.m.?

many thanks jwc.


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## BudsBees (Mar 10, 2013)

I'm grafting black Queens from a cut out


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

interesting bud, and welcome to the forum!

when did you get the cut out and how has it been doing?

you are just south of that confirmed ahb fatal attack in 2010. have there been any more confirmed ahb finds since then?


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## cdevier (Jul 17, 2010)

Two days ago, I looked out my window and saw a swarm in my back yard. After watching it for 15 minutes, the swarm settled on one of my hives that had been very small all smmer. 
Three years ago, I purchases a three pound box of bees plus queen - and the next day watched it swarm to a new home - only God knows where. The current swarm was larger than the swarm three years ago.

Several hours after this swarm took over the hive, I found a double handfull of bees clustered in the grass about 12 feet from their orginal home. I did not see a queen.

Now, two days later, I checked the hive and from the buzz, there are a lot of bees in that hive. I have checked my other 11 hives, but do not see any difference in number of bees bearding on the fronts. They must have come from some other place however the closest hives (2 hives) I know of are over a mile away.
My bees a mostly Itillian and the new swarm looks the same.
Charlie

12 hives zone 5


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

nice, they combined for winter on their own!

the weak hive may not have made it otherwise.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

update:

i never heard back from the state apiarist, (who has since retired), and haven't taken the time to call about it.

hive #3 survived the winters of 2012 and 2013 and ended up being my best producer this year yielding five medium supers of harvestable honey so far and likely a sixth if we get a good fall flow.


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