# Grafting 101?



## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

looking on what beeks here on beesource use for grafting, want to try it next spring, and looking for like 8-10 queen cells. so, what grafting tool do you use? I understand about using the correct age larva. If you make homemade cups, how do you make these? Or, where do you buy them?


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## oldfordguy (Dec 5, 2009)

I use a Chinese grafting tool, and I dip my own queen cell cups with rounded off dowels. I've got a webpage that shows some of the queen rearing stuff I made on the cheap @ http://mannell.net/?p=9


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Most bee supply houses have what you need. I made some out of paper clips and bought the JZBZ plastic cool to try. I really disliked the chinese tool. If I could reboot this season I would have notched cells instead of grafting.


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

Use a tooth pick. Take a box cutter and shave down the smaller end such that it's a thin as you can get..but not to thin. Then using your front teeth chew on the tip a little and bend it slightly such that it's curved. Let it dry and viola! Best grafting tool you'll ever use


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## popeye (Apr 21, 2013)

There's a lot of good info in the Queen and Bee Breeding up top.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ing-using-the-Joseph-Clemens-Starter-Finisher

http://doorgarden.com/11/simple-honey-bee-queen-rearing-for-beginners

Focus on getting as many bees as you can through the winter. Don't under estimate how many bees it takes to make a big, strong cell builder. 

The one thing I wish I would have done different earlier this year was to have notched cells AND grafted at the same time.


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

beestudent---read jwcarlson's comment about not underestimating the cell builder 20 or 30 times and memorize that. you can move larvae with about any tool that you like. i dont have much preference myself. people make grafting out to be something thats hard or mysterious. its simple. anyone can graft. raising queens takes bees----think in terms of needing to combine bees from the two strongest hives you can imagine into a couple of boxes. quality queens are result of lots of young bees and the resources to feed the cells.

and even thats the basic part. finding queens worthy of grafting from is the real work


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I had four colonies when grafting time rolled around. Three in top bar hives and only one in a Langstroth. I simply didn't have the bee resources to give grafting a good go when I tried. I'd have been "money ahead" if I would have just made a couple nucs and let them raise queens instead of goofing with grafting on those limited resources. That's not to say that I didn't learn a ton from doing it... I absolutely did. But I went about it all wrong.

I've got 13 colonies or so now (without having purchased any bees and I only caught 1 swarm) and they're all in the same type of equipment now (thank God). My goal was a mix of full size and nucs totaling 10 going into winter. I will probably be around 11 or 12 by the time I combine weak ones. I've got a decent chance of having 7 or 8 alive in the spring and I'll be happy with that. Goal next year is 20. That's where I want to be more or less. Make nucs to overwinter/sell and raise some queens and keeping near that number through sales/attrition. Graft if you'd like, but understand you'll probably get better and more reliable results notching cells and spreading the total number of queens raised across the summer.

I still have bees drawing comb... but I have gone from 10... that's right... 10 drawn deep frames to over 120. Probably more than that I just quick added them up. And they've drawn a good amount of medium frames for me too maybe 40-50 of those. I don't know if that's a huge growth for an apiary... but it feels like a pretty good jump. When cutting from TBHs to Langs I wasted a disturbing amount of comb. 

Anyway... I digress. It's good you're looking ahead, but unless you've got at least 5 full size colonies that survive the winter... your queen rearing effort will be better spent elsewhere (notching and making up nucs, walk away splits (in my opinion) waste too much bee time, which is pretty much the only resource that the beekeeper cannot influence in a positive way). 
The cell builder is a drain of resources... yes.
But the bigger drain is making up the 5-10 mating nucs you're going to need. Figuring you need 2-3 frames for each mating nuc... there goes 15-30 combs... which is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of *all the comb you currently have*. Which was space for your queens in their prime, but will now need to be drawn by young bees... which you just took from colonies to make mating nucs. Not to mention that the bees in the mating nucs are almost... "wasted" in the sense that you'll be tying up young bees and weakening other colonies which slows down their comb building/honey storage/build up/everything and you probably won't have the resources to make the mating nucs big enough to be "stand alone" so they'll either need to be combined once the queen is ready or they'll need to be boosted with capped brood from your bigger colonies.

And if they swarm on you... forget about it.  Focus on winter for now. Focus on staying out of your colonies that are trying to get queens raised (they all sit on the edge of a knife... you can't afford a setback in any of them if you expect them to overwinter). And start buying sugar to feed feed feed this fall. Focus on learning swarm prevention. Read about opening the brood nest (Matt Davey thread in Beekeeping 101) without drawn comb, because you won't have the drawn comb you need to adequately prevent swarming leading up to June.

Oh... and start building boxes. My God... you are going to need boxes. And tops... and bottom boards. And frames. Etc etc... If you think your bees built up fast this year... wait until you've got a queen in her prime laying her brains out. You're going to need boxes and frames faster than you'll ever be able to just "whip up" in the moment. Might as well get after it now! Make a goal and drive towards it. 8-10 queen cells is a nice goal... if you have the resources to make 8-10 mating nucs.

My advice... worth what you paid for it. And as I say... make your own decisions based on your research and opinions given to you... and then own the result of the decision you made. This place is littered with beekeepers-that-were who want to blame everyone else but themselves. Don't be one of those guys.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

BigBlackBirds said:


> people make grafting out to be something thats hard or mysterious. its simple. anyone can graft.


Just because you can do it doesn't mean anybody can. I've got EVERY grafting tool made. 3 different lighted magnifiers, and a larva transfer station. I use nothing but expensive store bought cells, cell holders and bars. I've managed to get 3 caped cells out of 5 different grafting attempts with at least 12 grafts each attempt. it's the hardest, most frustrating thing I've ever tried to do with bee keeping.
I'm on my 6th attempt now, will be checking for capped cells when I get home. I bought a NICOT system and will be trying that next.

I've used my own built cell builders and finishers, now I'm using a cloak board.


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## oldfordguy (Dec 5, 2009)

I'm with BigBlackBirds, my first attempt at grafting netted 8 out of 10 capped cells, better success than cell punching or OTS. It's also much easier to place the cells from grafts (or punches) in nucs as they are more easily removed from the cell bar than ones that must be cut from the comb. I don't intend to ever go back to another method, now that I've tried grafting.


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

Robbin
have you taken a grafting class or watched anyone graft? without having seen it first hand i doubt if i could have figured it out myself. i had a class years ago in ohio and then was given instruction later by another guy that did artificial insemination work. if you were in these parts id be happy to show you how to graft. i will agree that it does take some dexterity and my vision stinks in middle age so i too need a lighted magnifier. so maybe not everyone can easily graft. however, my point is that the act of transferring the larvae is actually the easiest piece of the process. dont get hung up on that. success comes from the right cell builders, adequate resources, right weather/time of year. of course i cant tell why you have only had a few grafts accepted from multiple attempts but im speculating that isnt solely a function of doing something wrong in the transfer process.

honestly jwcarlson and myself arent kidding about the resources that go into a cell builder. i always plan to completely tear down three full blown top of the line colonies just to make a cell builder. i'm sure there are way more efficient ways but its just what i have experience and comfort doing. and even with those resources and years of experience grafting, i have plenty of times when the grafts are not well accepted. 

there are lots of people way more versed in queen rearing than me but if you have a question feel free to ask and ill try to help


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

BigBlackBirds said:


> Robbin
> have you taken a grafting class or watched anyone graft? without having seen it first hand i doubt if i could have figured it out myself. i had a class years ago in ohio and then was given instruction later by another guy that did artificial insemination work. if you were in these parts id be happy to show you how to graft.


Thank you for the kind offer and I would take you up on it in a second if I were close to you. The answer is no, I've never watched anybody do it, thou I found someone about 25 miles away that has promised to call me the next time he gets ready to graft. My main problem is the actual grafting. Without fail, I'll put 8 out of 10 into the side wall. I've tried EVERY commercially available grafting tool. Crocoduli sent me a french video with a technique I haven't tried yet. Couldn't understand what they were saying, but I could see what they did. In that video they used new comb, and simply slide it out of the way with a butter knife. leaving the larva in the bottom of the plastic cell with no walls. I will try that, thou I may wait till next year. I didn't want to catch and trap my favorite queen, when you're having problems raising queens, risking killing your best queen is not high on your list of things you want to try. But I will eventually have to break down and try the NICOT system. 

To make matters worse, my queens returning from their mating flights is under 50%. Out of 8 cells a friend gave me, two resulted in mated queens. Out of the 3 I've grafted, 1 resulted in a mated queen. Over half of all the hives that swarm, end up queenless. So I REALLY need to be able to produce queencells.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

BigBlackBirds said:


> honestly jwcarlson and myself arent kidding about the resources that go into a cell builder. i always plan to completely tear down three full blown top of the line colonies just to make a cell builder. i'm sure there are way more efficient ways but its just what i have experience and comfort doing. and even with those resources and years of experience grafting, i have plenty of times when the grafts are not well accepted.


The overall strength of the cell builder obviously scales with how many cells you're trying to build. But your queen rearing scales with your overall apiary size until you get big enough you need a second builder I suppose. The process, like you say, isn't complicated. Getting a feel for the number of bees needed to successfully perform it is significantly more difficult. It's a lot easier AND MORE FOOLPROOF to raise emergency queens under good conditions than to try to graft. I'm going to give grafting a better go next year. 

I'm planning on doing it in a 5-frame nuc again (I only need a few cells at a time). 10 days before I graft I'll put 4 frames of capped brood donated from strong colonies with a frame of food into the nuc. 7-8 days later add a frame of open brood and frame of pollen (taking now empty or almost empty combs back for laying to another colony) to get them primed to produce jelly. Then pull the open brood (destroy any queen cells) back to mother colony. Then graft and drop into the nuc. 4 emerged frames of bees should be more than enough to tend 20 grafts (I think...?) I'm aiming for 7-10 cells. And it's not that many bees when spread across 8-10 donor colonies. 4 frames of capped brood when you have 2-3 colonies may be an entirely different animal. The real resource drain is mating nucs. I can see why the mini combs and tiny boxes are advantageous for the big guys. I'm planning on dividing one of my top bars that I don't really have use for now into sections for use as a "queen castle" to introduce queen cells into. But that will require me to shake a swarm in and get a bunch of combs drawn and laid up so that I can adequately stock the nucs. Maybe more of a pain than I care to tackle. I've been considering putting a divider in my 5 frame nucs and running two frames on each side with an exit on opposing ends.

Will graft much earlier this year too. Probably first week of May or so.

Of course like all plans, it will be shot to hell by April when I've got two barely alive colonies left.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

David LaFerney (sp?) had a very helpful Beesource thread on grafting, including tips for successful grafting. Perhaps you could do a search on it.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Phillip I liked it in a post above


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

Here's something I noticed, a swarm I picked up in late July that I hived in 3 nuc boxes, after I accidentally killed the queen (UGH!!), they have made close to 40 queen cells between 2 frames of young brood! This is twice as many cells as my 3 deep box hive made when they killed their weak Queen! Just an observation...


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

How to you figure you killed the queen? 40 cells sounds more like swarm mode than emergency cells.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

JW - I still have bees drawing comb... but I have gone from 10... that's right... 10 drawn deep frames to over 120. Probably more than that I just quick added them up. And they've drawn a good amount of medium frames for me too maybe 40-50 of those. I don't know if that's a huge growth for an apiary... but it feels like a pretty good jump. 

In my opinion that flipping rocks. Wish I would have increased that much this year with drawn comb. Whatever you did was working.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> How to you figure you killed the queen? 40 cells sounds more like swarm mode than emergency cells.


well,i had about a pint of syrup pour down the center of the frames, when i was nailing some stuff together on the same table... and now no more eggs, limited larva, what else could it be? it wasnt swarming, they started it RIGHT after i spilled the syrup...


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Could have been that they offed the queen because of too much intrusion. Could be you rolled her, I'm sure you'd been in there that day or the day before. Why couldn't it be swarming?


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

Finally! Got 6 out of 10 for my last grafting attempt!

That's more than the first 5 attempts combined!


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> Could have been that they offed the queen because of too much intrusion. Could be you rolled her, I'm sure you'd been in there that day or the day before. Why couldn't it be swarming?


I hadn't been in the hive for 3 days, and that was only the second time since getting them home. and anyway, 3 days isn't enough time for cells to be built...


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

beestudent - I use an artist's #000 sable paintbrush if I have Royal Jelly for priming, a forged-flat, bent 150 degree, sanded and polished paper clip if I'm working dry.

The paintbrush can be made wet a day before grafting and given a bent, pointed shape to the tip, and left to dry. It will be near perfect for grafting day. You can lick it, or dip it in RJ to keep it wet while grafting.

I agree with Big Black Bird about setting up a Cell Finisher Colony - combining colonies works - but your best colony is your breeder queen - so don't use her's. If I have 15 colonies, my 3 or 4 best are the queen BREEDER colonies. Those breeder queens get put individually into Pritchard boxes with 3 special combs to lay in - a Miller method frame, a Jay Smith frame for the Cut Cell method, and a top bar of freshly-drawn comb from worker foundation for grafting. 

The Pritchard box (which I thought I invented - I called it a Queen Jail - Mr. Pritchard got the same idea more than a half century before me) is just a place to hold a breeder queen for 4 days so I know exactly where to find 1 day old larvae from a really good queen mother on Grafting day, and it's portable, so I can take it to just outside the grafting tent.

Your second best colony (or 4th best if breeding from 3 queens, etc.) is your drone mother colony. It gets fed pollen substitute patties all season long, and gets boosted with drone comb. Gotta watch this one for mites!

The next 2 strong (or 1 strong and 2 not-so-strong) colonies after that are combiners to make up your Finisher colony, even if it is a Starter / Finisher. They do not have to be insanely large - that's why I combine them. The real trick is importing 8 to 10 frames of capped, hatching brood from other support colonies. Michael Palmer keeps his apiaries sustainable by bringing in these "import" frames from over-wintered nucleus colonies, not taking his honey producers off line. 

The imported frames of capped brood get added 10 days before grafting day ( Grafting Day is Day 11 if counting Import Day as zero) in a Starter/ Finisher. This should leave you with 25,000 to 30,000 extra 5- to 15 day old nurse bees for your queen rearing cycle, in addition to your colony's normal population of say, 30,000 to 50,000 when the nectar flow has been going a while. (I don't like pushing the queen rearing calendar too far forward in the year - I get better results when I let them build up a bit first, say just 2 weeks to a month. When the population is up, I get good queens.) 

So, your order of priorities are: 1) Best colony = breeder queen; 2) Next best colony = Drone Mother Colony; 3) & 4) Queen Cell Builder colonies (newspaper combine them first, as tall as 3 or 4 boxes, give them a week to get happy, the take a box away to crowd them in to _swarming impulse_ mode).

If you are under 16 to 20 colonies, drop the drone colony idea (unless you KNOW you have no feral bees to supply drones locally) - you're probably too low on bee resources for that luxury - you'll consume up most of these making up increaser nuc's if your queen rearing is successful.


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## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

grafting is very easy, and after reading most of what people said on this post, I got confused about the deal. so many ways of doing it, so many solutions, the pure math involved  crazy. 

well, for a new grafter, it can be confusing. taking a class would be a solutions to learning. go hang out with some old beekeeper could be another. if you have less than 10 hives, the resources you need for a cell builder could be scares. although, all you need is 4 frames of hatching brood, plus a couple of extra frames of bees , shake that in a 5 frame nuc, and you are good to go. some syrup can also help, but not necessary if done during a flow. 

another option for the under 10 hive beekeeper, would be do make walk away splits, and they work great. I started with 2 hives in april 2013 and now I have 35, with just a few weekends of work  it is not that complicated. 

I taught a class a few weeks ago, and the questions I got from those people, made me realize how little people know about bees. I wish I could do more, but I am all alone with limited resources. if one day one of my boys wants to film me, next year, I will try and do some online videos on how to do stuff. 

grafting is one of those things that take patience and some knowledge. pretty much the most difficult thing you can do in apiculture, is grafting or the second actually. I think artificial insemination is the hardest. I tried it, and killed all the queens provided for the experiment, they actually asked me not to come the next day for the class ) can you believe that. I think I am the only one in the history of that class ) I must admit I had a few drinks with an old friend before and during ) but it is too tedious for me. I can graft, but I prefer leaving the artificial insemination to mother nature. 

there are threads on how to graft all over this forum, and if you go on youtube, you will find a ton of videos on how to. I like the Chinese tool, but I can use a toothpick as well. I never prime the cells with RJ but sometimes I use a light sugar water solution, room temperature. pulverized in the cell cups, it helps with the unloading of the larvae. I try to graft same age if I can , and if I know I did not, I use cell protectors (those roller cages). we would not want a queen to hatch 1 day early and kill all the rest of them. 
other than that, it's just a matter of getting your ears wet. like Robin said, 6 tries, and not so good. I am sure frustration is at the high point right now, but, I also know how much fun it is to try all those things. one day we will all buy queen from Robin  

if you'all come down to Lafayette, La, let me know, i'll take you out there show you my stuff.


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## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

Robbin said:


> Finally! Got 6 out of 10 for my last grafting attempt!
> 
> That's more than the first 5 attempts combined!


I am a proud man. congratulations Robin.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

ok, ok, here's what I've decided will be my first queen rearing try, grafting using the Chinese tool, taking my favorite queen, move her, 2 food frames, 2 brood frames, and 1 empty comb, wait 4 days, so the new eggs can hatch, use them to graft with, move her back to the mother colony, take 3 frames of capped brood from between 3 colonies, find a frame of uncapped brood or 2, shake the young bees in the new nuc with them, add a food frame, (and before any of this, make darn sure the queen was in a separate box, away from all of this) and add the graft frame, and wait for the nuc to make some queen cells! when they're capped, wait for like 2-3 days after being capped, make some 2-frame nuc's up, and let sit with a queen cell. going to graft 6 starter cells, hope to get at least 1 queen out of this mix...


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## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

beestudent said:


> ok, ok, here's what I've decided will be my first queen rearing try, grafting using the Chinese tool, taking my favorite queen, move her, 2 food frames, 2 brood frames, and 1 empty comb, wait 4 days, so the new eggs can hatch, use them to graft with, move her back to the mother colony, take 3 frames of capped brood from between 3 colonies, find a frame of uncapped brood or 2, shake the young bees in the new nuc with them, add a food frame, (and before any of this, make darn sure the queen was in a separate box, away from all of this) and add the graft frame, and wait for the nuc to make some queen cells! when they're capped, wait for like 2-3 days after being capped, make some 2-frame nuc's up, and let sit with a queen cell. going to graft 6 starter cells, hope to get at least 1 queen out of this mix...


You do not have to move the queen away from her hive to graft son. Just pull out a frame of fresh larvae. Leave her there. At the same time , or maybe the next day i would start my 3 brood 2 honey nucs. Actually make just 5, the 6th put 4 full frames of brood, hatching, and then your graft frame. Actually. The steps are, build your cell builder, 4 capped brood and 1 cell frame. Make sure it is full of bees. You can feed at this point 1gal. Go back 3 days later. Kill all the eventual queen cells, at the same time graft in your cell frame and introduce. You can also feed now, or if feed left, leave it like that.if you do not want to feed at all, it works like that too. Same day you do this, or next day go build your other 5 nucs. Go back 3 days later or 4 and kill all queen cells on the 5 nucs frames, then introduce your cells in them. I would feed just a bit as you introduce.0.i hope it helps.


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## beestudent (Jun 10, 2015)

ok! thx! i'll have to do that! it'll be easyer than i expected, and I hope i get some good queens!


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Croc - Do you think this area of the Gulf Coast would produce queens right now? Not seeing much sign of flow yet. Plan to try it in a few weeks. Would like to have one successful grate this year. Feeding syrup to to a few hives and adding small amounts of pollen patties to get them cranking brood out. I had splits and cut outs without queen that were able to mate and start laying in September last year. 

Got a mating nuc full of drone larvae in worker's comb. Going to do the shake out in the next few days and freeze the comb. Got another mating nuc full of some of the evil, meanest, nastiest, bees I have seen in something that small. That queen will die this fall one way or another even if I cannot get a new queen raised. So even if I get just a couple of queens I can dump these ladies out and restart just for fun. Move them to nucs and a few frames of brood to build up. I had serious flow almost until Halloween.


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## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

does any of you guys have 3 queens for sale  I need to re-queen one mean queen and I need 2 for 2 queenless hives


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ing-using-the-Joseph-Clemens-Starter-Finisher
> 
> http://doorgarden.com/11/simple-honey-bee-queen-rearing-for-beginners
> 
> ...




I didn't have enough resources this yr to make a cell builder so I used a cloak board and it worked wonderfully, don't see any reason not to use one from hear on out.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Honestly, with the amount of hives you have and queens you want.... walk away splits are probably better. Here's my last one of the season, done in September, daughter off a VSH VP Carniolan II breeder. Learn to make up a good strong nuc to raise a nice queen and culling out undesirable cells is good learning before starting to graft.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

when I do walk aways, I will pull the queen on a strong hive, like one getting ready to swarm and put her in a nuc, let the strong hive build up cells and then once they are capped then bust it up into how ever many frames of cells I have. Sometimes they will build them on the few foundationless frames I have and I can cut some as well. I feel I get better cells built from the strong colony than I do busting it up and trying to let the nuc raise them.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

It's now way too late in the year for walk-away splits. 

You only want a batch of 8 to 10 queens, you don't need so many bees as I spoke of earlier in the thread (post #23). That's a Finisher Colony like Michael Palmer/Brother Adam's method for making up a full, 3-bar, 48 cell frame. 

Look at David LaFerney's posts of Joseph Campbell's small scale method instead. Make up a 5- or 6-frame, vented nucleus colony and a feeder rim with 1/2" hardware cloth for patty feeder holes and a jar feeder lid. This way you don't need to combine 2 or 3 colonies of bees to make a super-strong finisher, just a very crowded nuc'. The pictures in Oldtimer's thread, "Raising Queens Without Grafting" at the top of the queen rearing section here on Beesource are almost exactly the same thing.

Also make up 30 (even up to 40 - you can make as many as 20 queens in the peak of the season using Campbell's method) nucleus boxes.

A batch of 8 to 15 queens is started every 11 days. Queen cells planted into the mating nuc's stay for 22 days, so you need 2 sets of nucs per vented queen rearing nucleus box. The beauty of the system is that your learning curve is quick because you are repeating the process so often. It uses very few resources. Its like getting several years experience in one year, and you get lots of increaser nuc's and replacement queens as you need them. Your apiary will grow at an excellent rate, leading you to have resources for a strong Finisher Colony in a few years.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

JRG13, not saying great queens can't come from walk away splits. But don't you feel it's a bit of a waste bees to leave them essentially unproductive for that length of time getting weaker daily?


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

crocodilu911 said:


> does any of you guys have 3 queens for sale  I need to re-queen one mean queen and I need 2 for 2 queenless hives


Will be able to check tomorrow. I have some weak nucs that swarmed, got robbed, etc but are trying to catch up. Also have one laying queen in a 10 mini frame mating nuc, and 2 mating nucs that should be laying this weekend if things worked out. Will let you know


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So why all this debate about grafting?
I'm in the process of tinkering with a non-graft universal bee frame for the
queen to lay in. How come nobody thought of this idea before?
It can be done you know. No more grafting from now on. Just let the queen lay in and
then pluck off the larvae cups to put in the builder/finisher hives. Yes, the small wax worms are
involved with this process too. For once they are useful in something worth while.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

beepro said:


> So why all this debate about grafting?
> I'm in the process of tinkering with a non-graft universal bee frame for the
> queen to lay in. How come nobody thought of this idea before?
> It can be done you know. No more grafting from now on. Just let the queen lay in and
> ...


I remember, last winter, trying to come up with a homemade version like the jenter system and you commented, saying you too was thinking about that too. Did you come up with something? I tried a few different technics, but ended up liking to graft best.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

beepro said:


> So why all this debate about grafting?
> I'm in the process of tinkering with a non-graft universal bee frame for the
> queen to lay in. * How come nobody thought of this idea before?*
> It can be done you know. No more grafting from now on. Just let the queen lay in and
> ...





> How come nobody thought of this idea before?


What idea?
"non-graft universal bee frame"... doesn't give me a clear picture of what you are working on. 



> wax worms are involved with this process too


I think I'll stick to one of the queen rearing methods that don't require wax moths / worms...


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

rookie2531 said:


> Did you come up with something?


Yes, I did. I figured out a way with the wax moth larvae's help for a frame that the queen bee can
lay in. This is something totally different from yours, the first time I've seen it posted here.
Will put it into testing this coming Spring and summer. When someone said it cannot be done I like to take
up the challenge.

The wax moth larvae are there to help me clean up the gears for this frame
application. They are useful when you find a way for them.
Yes, something so destructive on the comb I turn it into something useful for me.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I think I know where you are going with this beepro, are you putting jenter cups horizontally in holes created by wax moth? Or something to that effect?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

If you don't want to graft put a foundation less comb containing worker cells in the middle of the broodnest then place it on top of a cloakboard then all you have to do is cut the cells out


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

A very creative way of using the wax moth thinking but not sure
how it will result in a usable non-graft frame for the queen
to lay in. I don't own a jenter cups or system. Those are too
expansive for my application. I want a cheap way to make an entire
frame of non-graft cells for the queen to lay in and then just pluck
the cell off to put in the cell builder on the 4th days. Isn't that simple enough to not graft at all. 
Your way is too much work cutting cells out considering if you want to make 600 cells or queens. Some cells will be side by side also. Remember that a typical frame will hold 2000 to 3000 worker larvae. You can pick and choose which cells to
put in and be able to control the queen bee genetics too.
I just learn and understood the cloak board method which will goes very well with this non-graft frame set up.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Well if you have a prototype ready to try out next spring color me intrigued


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

I think my approach would be something along the lines of, "Not letting any of my comb get infested by Wax Moth, and sticking with the tried and true methods out there." Good Luck in your endeavor Beepro. G


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Once a working prototype is finished it is time to mass produce
these frames so that all beekeepers should have one. Now they can
raise as many queens as they want to.


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## Maddy (Jan 20, 2014)

*Clueless Question on Making Queens.*

One of the joys/terrors of beekeeping is the abundance of information to help you learn...
YouTube is both a blessing and a curse.

I am sure many of you have heard of 'Don the Fat Bee Man,' who has many vids on his bees and his methods on YT.
This method is supposedly SO simple and SO effective, yet seems SO brutal to me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y64cKn4rLNM
This one is just slightly less so:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gE4swX9XN8

Then there is the Miller Method:
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/millermethod.html

I too, would like 5-8 queens, as opposed to hundreds, but I am *once again* overwhelmed by the various techniques and methods to get them...:scratch:

We are prepping now to merrily make nucs and hives for Spring, with the hope to see swarms as we did this year, as well as possibly make queen cells, but are far too inexperienced to attempt grafts, hence the discovery of these 'easier,' but somewhat unusual methods...

Oh, then there is this "graft-free" method...
file:///C:/Users/Honeybee/Documents/Bees/Graft-Free-Queen-Rearing-Morris-Ostrofsky.pdf

Have any of you used these these types of ways to get queen cells? Or are they just so much smoke and mirrors?
~M


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

*Re: Clueless Question on Making Queens.*



Maddy said:


> .... but somewhat unusual methods...
> Oh, then there is this "graft-free" method...
> file:///C:/Users/Honeybee/Documents/Bees/Graft-Free-Queen-Rearing-Morris-Ostrofsky.pdf
> Have any of you used these these types of ways to get queen cells? Or are they just so much smoke and mirrors?
> ~M


I dunno. You tell me if it works or not at 
http://wasba.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Graft-Free-Queen-Rearing-Morris-Ostrofsky.pdf


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## Maddy (Jan 20, 2014)

*Re: Clueless Question on Making Queens.*

TY, I didn't realize I had posted my own copy of the PDF...Derpinch:


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