# Russian vs Italian Bees



## kilnrat (Feb 10, 2010)

I was wondering 1) if you can mix Russian and Italian hives in the same yard? and 2) would they eventually mix or would they remain with their own hives? Thanks for any comments of those who have knowledge of this subject.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Why would you not be able to mix.? You mix Carni and Italian. I know Russians and Ukrainian bee's don't mix since they took over their water source (Crimea) .

They are meaner but, a strong hive can fend off yellow jackets which are meaner.


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## mrflegel (Mar 23, 2014)

I had a swarm move into an empty hive set up in my bee yard. Beautiful black , green marked queen. They stayed till the fall after the fall feeding and mite treatment then they left. I didnt see them leave or notice any robbing or dwindling of the colony. No evidence of starve out or dieased brood. Just empty combes, no piles of dead bees on the floor. Preplexing. They seemed to be good neighbors to the italians that I have and nice bees to work and i was looking forward to using their genetics in my hives. Thats my experience with them. Best of luck to You. Mike


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The genetics of the queens won't drift until they requeen. The distribution of workers will change as they drift. You can mix any kind of bees in the same yard...


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## J.Lee (Jan 19, 2014)

I have a friend who tried having Russian and Italians in the same yard and the Russians bees killed the Italian bees. I have talked with other beekeepers who have Russians and Italians in the same yard and are having no problems at all. I suspect the friend who had the problem was not dealing with a pure Russian but a Russian hybrid. I have heard that the first generation crosses can be mean. Then again I have two hives with Russian genes in my bee yard and they are not so take this with a grain of salt. If I were going to have Russians I would go for something that was pure from someone listed with the Russian Honey Bee Breeders Association. I also would make sure I had a few Italian hives around. They seem to always have frames of brood even in the summer dearth especially if you are feeding. You never know when you will need a frame of brood to save a hive thats queenless and Russians seem to shut down in the summer dearth. I hope this helps and good luck, James.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Have fun with the Russians. Hope you have 3 suits for every beekeeper working them. True Russians are hot and by that I do not mean Sexy.......


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

Honey-4-All said:


> Have fun with the Russians. Hope you have 3 suits for every beekeeper working them. True Russians are hot and by that I do not mean Sexy.......


really? I thought they were normal but with better hygenics and wintering? why would people breed an overall aggressive bee?


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

I've got Russian bees, Italian bees, Carniolan bees, & Muts too.. All in the same yard. They will mix just fine. However - Please take note: Russian queens should be bought through Certified Russian breeders if you want good stock to begin with. They are great to work with. Over time as you requeen other hives the drones from the russians will mate with virgin queens. 
If you start with good calm stock, you should be just fine. There's only one breed of bees that they don't do well mixing with and that's the Buckfast bees. They come out mean everytime.


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## krista45036 (Oct 7, 2014)

kaizen - i chose russians for my first bees last spring. aside from my own clumsiness in hiving the packages ( got a few stings then), the bees dont come after me. i always use a veil, and wear long sleeves & long pants, no gloves. sometimes use smoker, sometimes use sugar spray - depends on conditions.

i went with the russians for the hygenics, wintering and brood breaks during dearth. (big thx to drlonzo for his information last year!)


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

I bought Russians from Kelly's and after a month in a half I bought 2 queens from a certified Russian breeder and requeened. Those bees are not hot and I don't mean sexy. Like krista45036 said they are pretty calm. I've only been stung a few times. And that's when I'm going into the hive. They wintered good and are neat and clean. Best of all still alive and doing good.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

We have a hive of suspected Russians. They're noticably hotter than the other hives, but not intolerably so. They may not make the best pets for the back yard flower garden though. We used to be able to stand by the hives and watch, unprotected. Now that may mean an ornery guard bee getting in your hair or an ear.

They get along fine with our VSH Italians. They almost certainly provided the drones when we raised two queens last summer, and the resulting crossbreed seems fine so far. A VSH-Russian crossbreed could turn out interesting (not that we had a lot of choice). The Russians seem to be enjoying the winter and will fly at colder temps than the Italians.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

If I ever grew dissatisfied with Buckfast, I'd probably give Russians a try. Carni's appear to have the best reputation for gentleness. One notable beek compares a long past experience with Buckfast to AHB. Everyone has to decide for themselves what is "too hot", or even reasonably hot (or not). There are many variables and situations that influence any breed or hybrid and their resulting level of aggression. 

Consider being diligent in observing "why" a selected breed may be "hot", before slandering the entire group. Be considerate and complete in your evaluation.

99.99% of my Buckfast bees have been a pleasure to work with.


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## erikebrown (Oct 27, 2014)

I just started last year (April) with 1 Italian package and 2 Russian nucs, so keep my limited experience in mind.

There is a Russian breeder a couple miles from my house (soapandhoney.com) so I definitely have first generation and USDA approved Russians (so to speak). I haven't had any trouble with their temperament, and the two races seem to coexist just fine so far. One of the Russian superseded over the summer without much of a change in temperament.

I peeked inside this weekend and the stores were good in all three hives. The bees were quite calm and didn't seem to mind (it was 45 F at the time).

So I love my Russians so far, very easy to manage. Hoping to split and expand these hives this summer, so we'll see how their temperament holds out. I was worried about the Italians robbing the other hives, but no problems so far.

Erik


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

^^^ I am hoping to get a Russian Queen from Chris this spring and split one from Italian Nuc. I am in semi-urban (100x100 size lots). Hope Russian will do ok.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Russians vs Italians? 
Stalin vs Mussolini...easy to pick a winner. 

Jus kiddin tho. 
It was fun.
Move along, these aren't the droids you're looking for.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Pete from NY mixed them to get the mite fighting ability.
Got one of his mutt queen last Autumn. They have the mild 
temperament and build up nicely in our warmer environment.
It depends on the genetics you have there. So far so good.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

drlonzo said:


> There's only one breed of bees that they don't do well mixing with and that's the Buckfast bees. They come out mean everytime.




I have superseded Buckfast hives that I can work without smoke or a suit almost all year long. Most are moderately defensive, like most bees. Every year some hives are more defensive than others. Every year some hives are so gentle it can be a bit alarming.


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## bw200314 (Sep 3, 2015)

Have five hives with russian queens and they are just a tame and gentle as the Italians. Like the russian better. Have some very mean Italians hivves


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

bw200314 said:


> Have five hives with russian queens and they are just a tame and gentle as the Italians. Like the russian better. Have some very mean Italians hivves


My worst experience last year was with an Italian hive- population was booming and couldn't get the boxes back together without killing some. Mrs. BBK was only wearing a jacket and got some that stung through her pants, and a couple even managed to work their way under the velcro straps holding her pants around her boots. I told her to run off and let me finish, and it turned out that the wrists of my gloves weren't thick enough, masses of them stinging right through the gloves...working on an idea to curb that...

My Russian hybrids seemed pretty OK, not noticeably hotter than the Carnis. Any of them will get mad if you're rough with them, worse if you kill a bunch.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I use the silver color duct tapes to reinforce the weak net part of my gloves. 
Without the duct tape on they just keep on stinging on the same spot. Perhaps the
manufacturer need to better cover the exposed part. Don't like swollen wrists either!


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## Scrambles927 (Mar 21, 2016)

Not much mention of Carni's. What are the pluses and minuses with that breed?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Scrambles927 said:


> Not much mention of Carni's. What are the pluses and minuses with that breed?


Mostly they are little kittens with wings for disposition. Make a good honey crop and are frugal wintering. Then you split them or they swarm. I thi k its in their contract.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Carnis will build up FAST and can swarm before you are aware they are getting out of hand, you have to watch them closely. They also shut down brood rearing very quickly in a dearth, which is great for this area. Italians often eat their winter stores in September raising brood for no good reason here.

Peter


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

My Italians Cordovan do not eat all their stores in
September. They collect late into October because of
our mild weather. During the short winter months they are
very frugual on the pollen and honey reserves because I fed them
Lauri's bricks and give them patty subs all winter long. They never
use their stores until brooding up again in late Jan. By then I add more
of Lauri's bricks to help them along. 
I find it easier to keep the bigger brood build up for an early Spring
splits and for making new Spring queens. As for the carnis they do not
overwinter well her because of the smaller brood nest compared to the Italians.
Get the bees that is right for your local climate. I did!


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

USDA Russian stock is not hot in my experience. And if I had to choose between that or vsh Italian I would pick Russian every day that ends in Y. They are tougher.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

beepro said:


> I use the silver color duct tapes to reinforce the weak net part of my gloves.
> Without the duct tape on they just keep on stinging on the same spot. Perhaps the
> manufacturer need to better cover the exposed part. Don't like swollen wrists either!


Another use for duct tape...simple...why didn't I think of it?


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## Dejashel (Feb 16, 2016)

When I started I got 2 Russian nucs & 2 Italian nucs. The Russians are calmer than the Italians. I love them.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

How is the USDA stock different from the certified stock on certain
website as advertised?


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Scrambles927 said:


> Not much mention of Carni's. What are the pluses and minuses with that breed?


I bought 2 Carni nukes in 2011, those hives are still going strong in spite of me being a PPBK...not the original queens now, of course- self-replaced, open mated. They are generally easy to work, as long as *you* are gentle with them...but if you piss them off they will stay pissed for a while. They aren't as susceptible to dysentery as the Italians, they fly at lower temperatures, they put up plenty of stores for Winter and are easy on them, a full deep usually lasts fine through my long winters.

Just gotta manage them a bit to prevent swarming- I only had one swarm from them (that I know of) and that was right after a prolonged Spring rainy period...don't know if I'm doing it right or just lucky.

I have Carnis, Rus. VSH x Carny hybrids (2nd gen. now?) x something (open-mated), and Italians.

I turned the two Russian nukes bought in Spring into 5 hives, the original queens were lost to swarms from both of them.

The Italians are going on their 3rd year...I think (I don't really remember when I put them in, or if they have the original queen)...down to my last hive of them, all the others died out...plan on making up some nukes from it and making queens to get mated by the Carni/Rus drones...hopefully (can't control that). Main thing I want is to get them more resistant to the dysentery, so I don't much care if it's the Carnis or the hybrids that get to them.


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## KRW11 (May 14, 2015)

I am surprised at all the comments regarding Russians being "hot" that's all I have ever had so I don't know any different, however I rarely suit up more than a veil? I do get stung occasionally but it is usually my fault.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

KRW11 said:


> I am surprised at all the comments regarding Russians being "hot" that's all I have ever had so I don't know any different, however I rarely suit up more than a veil? I do get stung occasionally but it is usually my fault.


Perhaps that's because few of us have purebred Russians. Most of us probably have hybrids, and it could be that the hybrids tend to be that way.

My experience is limited to one strain. Our mentor got a hive of Russians. He said right off that the Russians were his hot hive, and they proved it to me the first time I met them. But all of his bees tend to be a bit pissy, and I suspect a skunk connection. But the positive side is that the parent colony turned out to be a highly productive honey hive last year.

Then we bought a nuc from another club member last summer. They nailed me probably 6 times when we picked them up, and several more times later that day when we set them up in our apiary. They have consistently had really tenacious guard bees, and will bump, get tangled in hair, and explore ears if you hang around without your bee jacket. Not intolerable, but wear the jacket. They are also distinctly more curious about exploring things close to the apiary. They also will fly with temps in the high 30's. They were pretty calm this weekend, but have only started building up.

I suspected Russian genetics as soon as they started nailing me. The lady we bought them from didn't think so, but when we prodded her for about the source of the queen, she remembered that it was from an earlier mentee of our mentor. And that made sense ... our little group tried breeding queens last year. They tried putting queen cells into a queen castle populated by Russians and the Russians killed every queen that was not theirs. Hence, the queens available to the club members were mostly Russians (or Russian hybrids), and we got one. The behavior was so similar to their mother's that it was unmistakable.

I am comparing those to the Olivarez Carnis we started with and some locally bred VSH hybrid bees that are very gentle.


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## Scrambles927 (Mar 21, 2016)

I ended up with Italians, more by restricted choice than decision making. They don't arrive for a couple of weeks, so I can't report on temperament. 

It does appear to me however, as quite the novice, that every strain/race/breed/ whatever can be hot or gentle, swarm frequently or not, produce heaps of honey or consume it all by Labor Day, etc. I attribute this to location, particular individuals in a strain, bk technique, the weather, what else is going on in the yard, etc. 

I'm going to set as my goal keeping the critters alive over the first season and not getting arrested. If I clear that hurdle, I'll take on something more ambitious.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

My Russian hybrids (2nd generation x Carni, x Carni?) were all flying today at about 52*F...in fact, ALL were flying, including the Italians. No protection, no stings. I got bumped a few times peering at the Russians (1 or 2 feet from the hives) but I think that was simply due to the volume of bees in the air, and their speed- there were a *lot* and coming & going at high speed, the airspace around the hives was just *full* of bees.

I have not noticed that the hybrids are any more aggressive than any of the others.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Phoebee, I thought all bees are the mutts by now.
There isn't anymore pure genetics around. Yes, it is true
that the Russians are a bit active bees. But they are really
hardy in the warmer climate. I made 7 nucs today using the Italian
queen cells on the Russian bees. So if they don't like her probably
none will make it back. And the Russians like to balled on the queen, eh.
The worst is I have to revert back to keeping the Italians again. Or propagate
more of the Russian queens. But that will certainly change the bee genetics around here.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

beepro said:


> Phoebee, I thought all bees are the mutts by now.
> There isn't anymore pure genetics around.


Exactly, although Russians, depending on the source, maybe less so. They were only brought into the US I think in the 1990's, and people who got them after they were past quarantine were pretty deliberately looking to breed as pure a strain as they could. At this point, they've been passed around and are crossbreeding their genes into the Great American Melting Pot. That includes providing the drones for the two "VSH" queens we produced last year (VSH taken loosely ... they're the granddaughters of bees a local breeder has been working on, which he selects for the VSH trait but they're highly mixed with other breeds).

I don't find them intolerable. Our mentor wants more ... his are big honey producers. I did find their behavior markedly different from the others, not just in defensive guard bees but also in their curiosity about the area within a few hundred feet of the hive.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

My best hives for the last couple of years have queens that are Russian hybrids. The queens came from Olympic Wilderness Apiaries (OWA). They do clearly state on their webpage that "OWA queens are not for everyone... While temperament is an aspect of our selection criteria, it is not our top priority." I have often thought that this is enough to run off a lot of potential clients but am very pleased with the honesty. However, I have yet to find a hive with their queens that is by my definition hot. I have found them to be easy to work with, are not as swarmy as Carnis and extremely frugal through the winter. They do like to bump you and really take off in the spring. I have had Italians in the past and their propensity to rob has always annoyed me. Winter stores for Italians need to be much larger than the hives with the OWA queens and I do not find them the be any gentler.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Do the Russian hybrids got any mite treatments before overwintering them?
Do you also treat for the mites?


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## KRW11 (May 14, 2015)

beepro said:


> Do the Russian hybrids got any mite treatments before overwintering them?
> Do you also treat for the mites?


Yes, I treat for mites, Oxalic Acid in November with another treatment of something else (rotating through the years) after the last flow, I also agree with all the comments regarding the idea that I (or anyone else) have "Russian Bees" although they may have started out with some sort of "Russian" strain they are all mutts.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Do bees from the Olympic Wilderness Apiaries (OWA) also need to be treated before
overwintering them?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Our Russians got a dose of MAQS last August, when they were dropping some mites.

We inspected their bottom board Saturday, which has been on most of the winter. There was a mite.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

beepro said:


> Do bees from the Olympic Wilderness Apiaries (OWA) also need to be treated before
> overwintering them?


I do. This year I tested using only OAV treatments for the first time. I did 3 OAV treatments in August and one in December. The hives with their queens are the only survivors in my apiary this year with 100% survival. They avoid treatment at their apiary but at my house, mites run rampant so I treat. Still, I find their stock to be very tough and they survive the rainy winters here with few issues.


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