# Is this the answer for small hive beetles?



## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

That sounds very good,there is more about this in the links below.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=591902#post591902
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=591902#post591902
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=591912#post591912


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## dannyidp (Jun 10, 2010)

ya I have posted on this subject in a couple of forums to give everybody a chance to see and comment,But I have not run across anybody who has tried this product so far.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

We have tested the beetle jails.. they do capture beetles.. they would certainly be a great method for the hobbies to aid in control of beetle populations as well as the spread of beetles across north America, but they are simply not feasible for use in commercial and pollenation operations due to the extreme ware that these operations would render... also I should note that I several of our studies we used high speed cameras set up around hives as we broke them down to work them and inspect them.. during the time that it takes to inspect a three story hive (2 deeps and 1 shallow), we noted that over seventy beetles were able to fly directly into the supers without being detected by the naked eye... still the best form of control is to develop a system of preventative measures and follow a strict schedule.


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## Bill C Beekeeper (Aug 3, 2010)

I think that eliminating SHB will be nearly impossible, but keeping their population down is the best goal. I use 4x4 inch sections of all those annoying political signs as my traps. Just cut the signs into the sections you need and place them on the top bars of the hive. Check them every so often and drop the "trap" into a bucket of saopy water, shake it out and reinstall...wont get all of them, but control is good.


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## MichaBees (Sep 26, 2010)

Bill C Beekeeper said:


> I think that eliminating SHB will be nearly impossible, but keeping their population down is the best goal. I use 4x4 inch sections of all those annoying political signs as my traps. Just cut the signs into the sections you need and place them on the top bars of the hive. Check them every so often and drop the "trap" into a bucket of saopy water, shake it out and reinstall...wont get all of them, but control is good.


Do you use anything to atract them into the trap?


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## Bill C Beekeeper (Aug 3, 2010)

No bait. My experience has been that the bees will naturally try and corral the SHB in corners of the inner cover, instead with my "cheapo" traps, they corral the SHB in the corrugated plastic sign trap. It is free and works pretty well. But again, it only helps to cull the population of beetles and doesnt completely eliminate them. JUST WHAT I USE!!!! Please use whatever works best for you....


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## New Bee (Nov 3, 2010)

Bill C Beekeeper said:


> No bait. My experience has been that the bees will naturally try and corral the SHB in corners of the inner cover, instead with my "cheapo" traps, they corral the SHB in the corrugated plastic sign trap. It is free and works pretty well. But again, it only helps to cull the population of beetles and doesnt completely eliminate them. JUST WHAT I USE!!!! Please use whatever works best for you....


This is corrugated plastic or "Corflute" as it widely known. 

Are traps made from signs promoting a particular political party more efficacious than others? 

There is a video on You Tube which shows someone using borax in the hollows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrugated_plastic


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## newbee1025 (Sep 1, 2010)

I have tried the beetle jail jr.. I bought them at kelleys. They seem to work but you're not going to trap them all. I'm a little hesitant but i think I'm going to try a ground drench with quadstar. Its supposed to stay in the ground 2-4 months. I think it could keep the population from booming in each apiary.


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## ChristopherA (Jul 20, 2010)

I look at it as a treatment for the SHB.

I have to ask are you providing any prevention? Do you have you hives elevated and protected to best possible to keep the beetles out? Do your hives have a good population of bees?


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

ChristopherA said:


> I look at it as a treatment for the SHB.
> I have to ask are you providing any prevention? Do you have you hives elevated and protected to best possible to keep the beetles out? Do your hives have a good population of bees?


Im at a loss as to understanding your quote, are you negative reference treatments for SHB, positive reference treatments for SHB, against any treaments/traps in the hive, do you view this non-baited trap attached to the hive as a "treatment"?? Not tryin to stir the bucket, just trying to understand your post.

ANY prevention is good, hive elevation has nothing to do with keeping beetles out...they fly. Full sun is a great deterrent, shade is usually bad news in SHB country. 

I have not used this product, would like to hear from some who have..as previously mentioned any preventative methods when it comes to SHB are highly reccomended.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Political signs did not work well at all in any of our studies...4x4 blocks were filled with boric acid and sealed with Cisco...this killed far fewer beetles than cd traps or beetle barns...and also the beetles that did not die within the cells traveled on average of three times further than those that fed on fipronil within the cd traps...and of course left traces of boric acid on the wood and wax as they traveled... non baited blocks trapped much fewer beetles than the baited blocks... it was also noted that many of the female shb were too large to enter the cells at all.

Elevating hives has a negative effect on deterring shb that are traveling to the Apiaries, but does allow for easier applications of permethrin ground drenching...which helps by killing shb larvae that leave a slimed hive to enter the ground to pupate.

Shb are somewhat sensitive to light...thus sunny locations are good, yet can be TOO sunny in southern climates where high temps cause extra fanning...this sends the odor of pollen out for beetles to find...shb can detect 2ppb (parts per billion) of pollen from four miles away...

Get control (meaning kill them ALL) during winter, then keep fresh cd traps baited with a 1:1 ratio of fermented pollen sub and fipronil (roach gel) on the bottom boards as well as ground drenching when needed... this is the best way to control shb, without using direct chemical treatments. Entrance reducers on weaker colonies will also prove helpful...as will minimizing any space that is not heavily guarded...


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## New Bee (Nov 3, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> Political signs did not work well at all in any of our studies...
> .


Did you publish the results of these studies? If so I would be interested in reading them.


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## New Bee (Nov 3, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> applications of permethrin ground drenching...which helps by killing shb larvae that leave a slimed hive to enter the ground to pupate.


Is there any evidence that this has any efficacy? If the beetles are in the area, they will will fly in to the hives anyway. Killing off one generation of SHB larvae from a dead hive won't do much use I would have thought.

Permethrin is a synthetic pyrethroid and if I recall correctly these have been associated with CCD.

MSDS here is worth reviewing.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

New Bee said:


> Is there any evidence that this has any efficacy? If the beetles are in the area, they will will fly in to the hives anyway. Killing off one generation of SHB larvae from a dead hive won't do much use I would have thought.
> 
> Permethrin is a synthetic pyrethroid and if I recall correctly these have been associated with CCD.
> 
> MSDS here is worth reviewing.


The results of our SHB studies will be published in spring 2011...several studies are still incomplete.

SHB females can lay around 2,000 eggs each... it takes only one laying female to ruin a hive... once the hive is slimed it takes a very short time for the shb larvae to grow enough to travel to the ground to pupate. The average percentage of females produced by each laying female is 72%... thats about 1,400 new females produced in your bee yard from just one female sliming a hive... imagine what that means for yards that have 20-30 hives slimed in a season, and by 10-17 females instead of just 1.

Sure the beetles do fly from apiary to apiary, orchard to orchard, field to field, dumpster to dumpster... but why help them build their numbers from within your own bee yards?

We have NEVER seen any CCD in our colonies across MS, LA, or AL. In fact I have only heard of CCD to truely effect migratory operations... and not just chemically treated ones either... In recent studies, it was noted that the most likely cause of CCD was a mix of a bacterial infection and a viral infection at the same time. 

If you can not bring yourself to ground drench to prevent the spread of SHB, then by all means use some sort of other method... Gravel, tin, shingles, tarps, etc... covering the ground in the apiary work fine as long as they are in the sun and can reach temps high enough to dry the larvae before they reach the soil. Keep in mind that they have traveled over 100' away from the hive in order to reach softer soil.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

http://www.safe2use.com/pests/fireants/fireants2.htm
http://www.safe2use.com/pests/fireants/goodpurpose.htm

Is there, in your opinion, any good in allowing fire ants to remain near your hives to control stray SHB larva?


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## newbee1025 (Sep 1, 2010)

Just a question. My hives are on treated 2x6 frames with a hollow area underneath. I use screened bottom boards with #8 hardware cloth in them. The question is that if the larvae can fit through that screen and if so I need to figure out how to get the chemical underneath it. Or else they would be falling through straight down, going into the ground and coming right back in with little effort.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

rrussell,
Did any of your SHB studies cover screened-bottom-boards versus solid bottoms in terms of infestation levels? I know that most SHB are small enough to easily pass through the #8 hardware cloth normally used for SBB. Seems to me, SBB hives would be much more vulnerable to the beetles gaining access through the bottom. 
Thanks


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## New Bee (Nov 3, 2010)

rrussell6870 said:


> The results of our SHB studies will be published in spring 2011...several studies are still incomplete.


Thank you for all your hard work and the time and money you must have spent on this effort. 



rrussell6870 said:


> SHB females can lay around 2,000 eggs each... it takes only one laying female to ruin a hive... once the hive is slimed it takes a very short time for the shb larvae to grow enough to travel to the ground to pupate. The average percentage of females produced by each laying female is 72%... thats about 1,400 new females produced in your bee yard from just one female sliming a hive... imagine what that means for yards that have 20-30 hives slimed in a season, and by 10-17 females instead of just 1.
> 
> Sure the beetles do fly from apiary to apiary, orchard to orchard, field to field, dumpster to dumpster... but why help them build their numbers from within your own bee yards?


I take your point. However whatever is done, especially at the commercial level, has to be effective, make sense economically, and cause as little effect on the environment as possible. Note the order I put these.



rrussell6870 said:


> We have NEVER seen any CCD in our colonies across MS, LA, or AL. In fact I have only heard of CCD to truely effect migratory operations... and not just chemically treated ones either... In recent studies, it was noted that the most likely cause of CCD was a mix of a bacterial infection and a viral infection at the same time.


Point taken. In your experience is your rate of hive death increasing, falling or stable compared to, say, 10 years ago?



rrussell6870 said:


> If you can not bring yourself to ground drench to prevent the spread of SHB, then by all means use some sort of other method... Gravel, tin, shingles, tarps, etc... covering the ground in the apiary work fine as long as they are in the sun and can reach temps high enough to dry the larvae before they reach the soil. Keep in mind that they have traveled over 100' away from the hive in order to reach softer soil.


This is very interesting. So far as I can find out not too much research has been done on the behavior of the SHB larvae. One researcher in Florida told me that larvae that escaped from a rearing container in his lab were found more than 60 feet away the next morning. In your experience do the larva tend to drop from a hive at a particular time of day?


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## dannyidp (Jun 10, 2010)

Just curios here if you have a oil trap under your screen bottom board such as a freeman would the lava ever make it out of the hive? I have also been keeping up with some bee keepers who have had ccd hit pretty hard, and have been doing a lot of research. very interested results have been found, one of which is chemicals that farmers have started using around the time ccd started! It's not the farmers fault but the chemical company's that tell these farmers hey this is what you need.I'm not saying that this is the only things causing this problem but it sure makes one think:scratch: Just some thoughts ..


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Scrapfe said:


> http://www.safe2use.com/pests/fireants/fireants2.htm
> http://www.safe2use.com/pests/fireants/goodpurpose.htm
> 
> Is there, in your opinion, any good in allowing fire ants to remain near your hives to control stray SHB larva?


Depends on the number of fire ant mounds... as with everything in life and nature, moderation is key..

In Mississippi we have loads of fire ants... but do not really have any trouble with them bothering hives... of course, we do not place pallets on the mounds, and we do not allow mounds to develop right around the hives... but a few feet away, has not posed any problems. 

As to their use to control shb larvae... they were VERY useful during our studies where we had thousands of slimed supers that had to be cleaned before returning to colonies... a good sized fire ant mound can clean an entire deep (honey, larvae, beetles, pollen, brood, eggs, slime, EVERYTHING except wax and wood) within about 24 hours. They also protect the comb from moths until you can return to pick it up.

They will feast on shb larvae as they try to cross hard ground in search of softer soil... to what level of effectiveness, I can not say, as there are so many variables at play... locations of mounds, travel of foraging ants, etc... but they do serve a great purpose in the bee yard... just best at a safe distance.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

newbee1025 said:


> Just a question. My hives are on treated 2x6 frames with a hollow area underneath. I use screened bottom boards with #8 hardware cloth in them. The question is that if the larvae can fit through that screen and if so I need to figure out how to get the chemical underneath it. Or else they would be falling through straight down, going into the ground and coming right back in with little effort.


Yes they do travel more easily to the ground through a sbb. The best suggestion I can make is to cut some heavy black plastic sheets large enough to extend say four feet out from each side of you stands... anchor them well beneath each hive and make sure the hives are getting enough sun to heat the plastic well during the day... 

Another idea would be plastic beneath gravel... however, this may be much more pleasing to the eye, but it will be much tougher on your wallet.

I would not try to get the chemical into tight spaces beneath the hives, simply because it is systemic within wood... if it gets directly on your bottoms, stands, or supers, it could at the least irritate your colonies.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

db_land said:


> rrussell,
> Did any of your SHB studies cover screened-bottom-boards versus solid bottoms in terms of infestation levels? I know that most SHB are small enough to easily pass through the #8 hardware cloth normally used for SBB. Seems to me, SBB hives would be much more vulnerable to the beetles gaining access through the bottom.
> Thanks


Yes we did study solid bottoms and sbb to determine which was more vulnerable to both initial infestation and shb proliferation through slimed hives.

While solid bottoms were much harder for beetles to gain access during the initial attack, the sbb using an oil pan was equally effective in eliminating most beetles during this process... sbb without pans beneath them were indeed the most easily infested, most quickly overrun, and the most direct access for creating the next generation of shb within the bee yard.

For chemically protected hives, solid bottoms were superior. Also in studying the foraging behavior of shb, they seam to be far more drawn to hives that allow more circulation. This is simply because they smell and track pollen with extreme accuracy. Circulation is good for the health of any hive... especially in areas of high heat, and even more so if you place your hives in full sun. Bees have air flow down to an exact science, so it just comes down to personal opinion and purpose when deciding which bottoms you will want.

From our experience, neither one has proven to be better than the other. So long as they are used to your advantage and in the way that works best for your particular situation.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"Another idea would be plastic beneath gravel... however, this may be much more pleasing to the eye, but it will be much tougher on your wallet."
Maybe woodchips would be cheaper?


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

I must say I very much appreciate the discussions around SHB and looking at the number of people reading the comments a lot of other beekeepers also value the input ( my sincere thanks to all - specially rrussell)
I have hives in the full sun and some in semi-shade. I get fewer SHB in the shade ( I'm in a sub-tropical climate) - the difference is that the ones in semi-shade are in a chicken yard. I'm convinced by my own experience ( and feedback from others) that chickens are helpful. Of little use for comercial keepers.
When there is drizzly rain around and warm/humid and I can't change the traps - I will have problems.
I would like to buid a screened botton board. I'm sure I can work out a reasonable one but does somebody have plans In METRIC if possible? Why re-invent the wheel.

My thanks to all.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Max2... thanks for the support. Nice to hear from you again. 

As to the wood chips... they may be rough enough to slow down the larvae enough to kill them in the sun (or at least retard their growth enough to stop them from reproducing)... good idea to try. Chickens may not be the only thing keeping your partial shade hives safer... in hot humid climates bees fan heavily to control the inside temp and humidity levels... this of course sends out a huge flag for beetles to come to. When choosing full sun are partial shade, everyone needs to consider their specific area.

I will pm you the metric measurements for a ten frame sbb some time this next week.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

New Bee said:


> Point taken. In your experience is your rate of hive death increasing, falling or stable compared to, say, 10 years ago?



"Dropped... We no longer lose bees. We have never had any real winter losses as we are in MS and always give them a full medium for stores... and we do not have to worry about mites any more... and we manage our hives very closely, so we never have any AFB or nosema...even with SHB, we have a program that we follow that has been effective in controlling them completely. As I said, here is a company that has thousands of hives across four states and has never lost ANYTHING to CCD. Not saying it isnt real...just saying that it mainly effects migratory bee keepers and is not a chemical/non-chemical issue... but rather a stress/viral/bacterial issue."




New Bee said:


> This is very interesting. So far as I can find out not too much research has been done on the behavior of the SHB larvae. One researcher in Florida told me that larvae that escaped from a rearing container in his lab were found more than 60 feet away the next morning. In your experience do the larva tend to drop from a hive at a particular time of day?


"When they hatch they begin to race through sugars feeding as fast as they can to build size...this is when they can leave the hive... once they are large enough they will be able to travel to the ground to pupate, however they are most vulnerable in this state, so they move in darker hours more so than day light hours. This is why most people see all of the tiny larvae and assume that they have not made it to the ground yet... but the truth is, they made it there the night before, and the tiny larvae that they are seeing are a mixture of the slowest ones from the first hatch and the offspring of the following hatches."


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

" I will pm you the metric measurements for a ten frame sbb some time this next week."

Thanks and thanks for all the comments - all very useful, max2


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## Black Creek (May 19, 2006)

hi, i just want to thank everyone for the SHB discussion. I am plagued by them now. Just a couple years ago i ordered a package from a new supplier and 6 months later they sent me a letter saying that they later found that they were shipping packages out with live SHB contained inside !! Gee, THANKS !!! no apology no refund or credit. just a FYI letter.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

The sad reality is that this sort of issue will only grow as shb spread. Right when people are beginning to really start selling treatment free packages and nucs...the beetles take a foothold. No bees will ever be immune to beetles...we have been working on a line of genetics that are not deterred by the slime, and thus can clean out larvae and slime as they hatch...but to spread genetics like these across the nation will take many years...especially considering the vsh genetics that are just now becoming prominent. Be careful of packages and nucs... without some form of trap or control program, you can wipe out your Apiaries by simply trying to expand them.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Wow, wow, wow... I just got through reading this thread and it held a great amount of information in just three short pages. I have been wondering what type of environment the SHB "liked". Folks have said to put the hives in full sun but I really hadn't read for sure the "why" of it. I was suspecting the dryness of the area surrounding the hive (the larvae would dry out in such conditions). But, it seems they are tough slimers. Mr. Russell, you mentioned earlier in the thread that ya'll would be publishing your study on the AHB this past spring. Has it been published and is it available to a wannabe beek like me? Thanks again for some very good info...great food for thought!!!

Ed


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## acbz (Sep 8, 2009)

Ted K. brought up a question a while back regarding SHB elimination by the USDA using the "sterile insect technique"... it seems it would be feasible and effective, does anybody know if this is being considered? If not, why.....what are the potential dangers? Or is it just a matter of funding and bureaucracy? Come to think of it, why isn't this technique used for other pests like the emerald ash borer, etc.? Dr. Russell?


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Is the SHB common in Texas? I didn't find any of them in my now empty hive...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

acbz,

Sure has. A university in FL has been running studies on sterilization (cant remember which University, coffee is wearing off... lol). We ourselves have tested samples from a few different operations each season to see what effects different treatments (varroa as well as off label methods that are used to control shb) may have on their reproductive systems and at what percentages are effected in these ways. The approved varroa treatments do not contribute very much to causing mass sterility however... 

But nearly all are quite effective at killing young male shb during the time period that the hive is being treated... the fact that the younger males are more effected than the females is of course encouraging because it means that those that are not dying from the treatment are still suffering reproductive, and physical health effects that may lead to lower production during the following generation... however, the other side of that coin is that those that do get effected, yet still manage to reproduce will be creating a more treatment resistant generation for us to fight down the road... as far as dangers... yes there are a few dangers involved in sterile insect programs... first, lets face it guys, what works well in a lab or study invironment may not work at all in the real world. So there are many hurdles that will pop up After a program leaves the lab and tries to get established in the field... some of these hurdles can send you all the way back to the lab to start all over again, simply because some "hurdles" just are too risky to jump... 

So the first danger is Time and Expense... as these programs draw more interest, they tend to draw more funding which would have otherwise been used in invasive species combat, or treatments for short. lol. So if the program draws tons of funding, but then takes too long to become effective (which most do), it can cause more harm than good. In the long run programs like this can be very helpful, but with the speed of the destruction that shb can cause our industry and the rapid spread north, it may be best to diversify the funding so we keep making small improvements throughout a longer period... 

The next danger is the tenacity of the pest itself... if the pest persists from pockets that are not addressed by the program, they can develop actually address the threat themselves by becoming even more destructive in smaller areas in an attempt to survive the threat... these rapid reproductive instincts can stick around once triggered, so if we do not get them ALL, we may be facing a new invasion of even more destructive shb down the road.

The third danger is the threat that other creatures (mainly those that serve a purpose in the ecological balance of a region) may be harmed in the process... this could happen through field applications of whatever means would be decided to be used to cause the sterility, or it can happen by means of releasing mass numbers of sterile males to overwhelm the breeding pool each season... by means of infecting other creatures that may prey on the sterile beetles in large numbers and fall victim to the effective sterilization formula if it is systemic...

On the brighter side... our bees are learning as are we... the greatest risk that you can be in is when you think that you do not need to worry about shb... be concerned, be prepared, and keep an eye out for them... when you see them, ANY of them, act... they will only draw in more... by staying prepared and alert, you can sleep better at night and so can the rest of us, because every hive that is lost is thousands more beetles for the next guy to worry about.

Hope this helps!


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I foresee a day when you will purchase a tray of dirt with sterilized or radiation genetically damaged SHB pupae. Place the tray of dirt in the beeyard, pull the lid off like a can of sardines. Let the beetles hatch, emerge and fly off to bred with the surrounding population. Thus the general population collapses in the area treated. This is the only way we will ever get rid of this foul pest. It worked with screw worm, it will work with this pest also. To this day I do not have the wax moth problems that other beekeepers have. I many years ago was part of the wax moth eradication program. My area had genetically damage wax moth released into it back in the late 1970's. IT WORKED!! And how many years ago was that?? Do the math! It is time for the scientist to get off their butts, quit playing with the problem-the hive beetle and get rid of it once and for all. I am tired of finding hives with "live rice"-as my helpers call the larvae, crawling on the pallet bottoms. None of us now will eat chinese fried rice anymore!! LOL TK


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## Me Beeing Me (May 27, 2011)

I have been harvesting honeycomb over the last few weeks and just noticed my SHB population exploding. Are there any adverse effects SHB's have on honey or honeycomb and does it need to be treated?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

If its slimed, its fermenting already, so extracting can lead to drums of fermented honey... I would suggest standing slimed supers up in the bee yard (best to place them up on end on corrugated tin in the sun... this will fry the larvae that come out of it, deter other beetles from going into it to lay, and allow the bees to rob out the honey to take it home clean and dry it). 

Ted, that day may indeed come. I am going to send you some traps and some "customized" beetle juice... ;-)


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Send it to Ted Kretschmann, 102 wisel road, Dadeville Alabama, 36853...We people in the South have another invasive pest that is a helpful ally when fighting the hive beetle.,,,,The fire ant. Hive gets slimed. Find the nearest fire ant mound. Place slimed dead hive near mound and feed the ant. The ants love beetle larvae. TED PS works for wax moth too.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I'm not a big fan of fire ants, but can see that they would be efficient cleanup crews. 

Where do I get or how do I make beetle juice?


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## TwinkieBee (Feb 21, 2011)

You can buy beetlejuice from www.russellapiaries.com. I use it in my traps and it works great to catch the evil SHB.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

How do SHB deal with sticky propolis? From what I understand (newbie here), caucasians tend to produce more sticky propolis than most other races. Would the excess propolis be a hindrance to the SHB or do they travel across it unimpeded just as the bees do?

Ed


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## guyross (Feb 18, 2011)

I have yellow jackets under some hives flying over the grass. I think they were picking up ants. They would be an enemy to anything.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Ed, shb are not restricted in their movements by the propolis, but it does fill in their hiding places which makes it difficult for them to get around in the hive, into turn, slowing their destruction some.


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## guyross (Feb 18, 2011)

This works for me.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

guyross said:


> This works for me.


Hmmm, the jpeg isn't opening up for me, guyross.

Ed


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## 100 td (Apr 3, 2011)

So what's in the CD case, attractant and pesticide?


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## guyross (Feb 18, 2011)

honey pollen mixture with some max force roach bait.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Most of my grubs were over an inch long. They looked like the SHB photos, but do SHB grubs get that big? (I just looked at the measurement legend on one of them, and 8 mm does not an inch make)


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

They sure do. The mature grubs are 3/4-1.6" long. But shb emerge in intervals, so their should be hundreds or even thousands of little ones when the first wave of larvae get that size.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

So my half gallon of grubs probably started as half a cup of tiny grubs when they first hatched?


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

That's correct. Due to the way they take down the hive, there are usually several stages of larvae at any given time... so when you see large grubs, there should be tiny maggots and eggs that have not emerged yet as well...


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## 100 td (Apr 3, 2011)

Gypsi said:


> Most of my grubs were over an inch long. They looked like the SHB photos, but do SHB grubs get that big? (I just looked at the measurement legend on one of them, and 8 mm does not an inch make)





rrussell6870 said:


> They sure do. The mature grubs are 3/4-1.6" long. But shb emerge in intervals, so their should be hundreds or even thousands of little ones when the first wave of larvae get that size.


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but everything scientifically based I've read says SHB larva are approx 12mm long, wax moth are approx 28mm, how big do SHB larvae get, is there some other info for me to read please?
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/117372/small-hive-beetle.pdf
http://new.dpi.vic.gov.au/agricultu...wax-moth-pest-of-combs-and-honey-bee-products


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I had more moths than beetles, that's for sure, based on the pupae attached to the roof and number of adult moths I saw. I didn't know I had beetles til I soaked the frames in water overnight and they floated up. Whatever. They became chicken feed.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

rrussell6870 said:


> We have tested the beetle jails.. they do capture beetles.. they would certainly be a great method for the hobbies to aid in control of beetle populations as well as the spread of beetles across north America, but they are simply not feasible for use in commercial and pollenation operations due to the extreme ware that these operations would render... also I should note that I several of our studies we used high speed cameras set up around hives as we broke them down to work them and inspect them.. during the time that it takes to inspect a three story hive (2 deeps and 1 shallow), we noted that over seventy beetles were able to fly directly into the supers without being detected by the naked eye... still the best form of control is to develop a system of preventative measures and follow a strict schedule.


With the high number of beetles noted that can enter a hive during an open inspection, would the use of a manipulation cloth help or block the beetles by presenting a smaller opening? Smash them when they land on the cloth. Too much trouble?

Ed


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

Does Diatomaceous earth kill the larvae? Although I don't know how you could keep the bees off of it.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Ed, the covers can be an aid in helping the bees make a tight seal, but they also limit ventilation which can cause condensation build up during winter... as for hopefully getting them as they enter during inspection... good luck quick draw. Lol. They are FAST and accurate... 

What does help in that area though is to place hives just a little further out from trees and run your hive tool in all the crack around the hive and top... try to kill all of them thaf are up close waiting their chance, then cause the ones that are hiding in the limbs and leaves of the trees to have to step out of their comfort zones...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Muskrat, DE does kill shb and their larvae, but it is still very dangerous in a hive... wind can cause it to puff up into the hive and kill bees and brood..


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

rrussell6870 said:


> Muskrat, DE does kill shb and their larvae, but it is still very dangerous in a hive... wind can cause it to puff up into the hive and kill bees and brood..


Glad someone else mention DE [diatamaceous earth, sp?], as I was wondering if anyone besides me used it. On my screened bottom boards that have trays, I use DE instead of oil. Lasts longer and seems to be more effective. My trays are tight against the screen on the bottom boards so any wind would have to come through the colony. We have high humidity and the DE seems to absorb the moisure and forms somewhat of a crust on top; although still powdery below if I scrape the crust off. I have tried blowing accross the DE with my breath, but had little if any powder blow up [I have also been concerned about this]. Does seem to be effective on beetles as when I pull the trays and examine them I do find beetles. Not sure how much affect it has had on bees or brood.

I currently have 16 colonies, but don't have a shb problem; although I do see them. I have only found one colony ever slimed and just in a small area. I removed the frames [2] and set them out and the bees and ants cleaned them up. I had prematurely added another super before populations had adequately expanded and I believe this contributed to the problem. I now push the limit on adding boxes, waiting until the colonies are somewhat crowded. I am on all mediums and so this is probably easier than with deep boxes. All frames are small cell plastic.

About half of my colonies have the trays and the rest [all screened bottoms] have no trays. We don't treat for fire ants [also my bees are treatment free] and I believe the fireants help immensly with the beetles. I use cinderblocks with treated landscaping timbers on top for stands, with the bottoms being about a foot off the ground. I often see fireants in and around the colonies, but have not found them to be a problem. They don't seem to have any affect on the bees.

We are in a drought here and have been for the last two years, so this may be limiting shb problem.

Also, I have noticed that I seldom see beetles in my more defensive [hotter] colonies, in other words, I see more beetles in my gentler colonies. However, since I am treatment free I will tolerate a little more temperament from my bees if they seem to be productive, but not if they don't respond to smoke. I had a couple I was going to requeen. I often get lazy and work bees without smoke and adequate protection. These two were nasty, but after smoking them and doing a thorough examination, they had adequate stores even during this drought, high populations, queens weren't runners, and I could find no beetles, so I decided to keep them. The smoke did gentle them down quite well.

This thread has also been quite education for me and I appreciate everyone's input and especially R. Russell's.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

rrussell6870 said:


> Ed, the covers can be an aid in helping the bees make a tight seal, but they also limit ventilation which can cause condensation build up during winter... as for hopefully getting them as they enter during inspection... good luck quick draw. Lol. They are FAST and accurate...
> 
> What does help in that area though is to place hives just a little further out from trees and run your hive tool in all the crack around the hive and top... try to kill all of them thaf are up close waiting their chance, then cause the ones that are hiding in the limbs and leaves of the trees to have to step out of their comfort zones...


:s Aren't manipulation cloths used only for inspections? You wouldn't leave them on the hives permanently would you? I'm just thinking they could be used when you pop the top off the hive to decrease the size of the opening to reduce shb entry during that time. 

"good luck quick draw. Lol.".....:kn: I'm a little lost there, Russell, I don't think you read my post very well.

Ed


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Ed, I was only picking at you... quick draw is what I call anyone that has a hive tool in there hand when I take off a top and hand it to them. Lol. I love to see shb crushed! 

Yes, the idea behind manipulation cloths is to cover the areas that we are not working in... but I never use them for that... I have used them beneath tops during wet winters to catch moisture on hives that had just been fed... aside from that, the closest thing to manipulation cloths that I use are the vinyl flaps that I put on mating nucs with more than one compartment... my point about the cloths is that the beetles are so fast and accurate, that even if you only open the hive for a second and only an inch, they can get in just fine without even being noticed... the landing board is harder for them to breach for two reasons... first, the bees are guarding it always... and secondly, the frames are over head and the beetles must either fly up to reach them (while being attacked by the bees) or crawl up the walls to reach the frame rests and enter the comb via the top bar (again while being attacked by the bees)... 

You shouldn't have problem with them getting in through the top in the set up that we were discussing... they mainly launch this sort of offensive from trees and shrubs... they generally only hover around hives in the evening and early morning during that short period of reflected light...


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

Beesource is awesome- where else can beekeepers from around the world exchange information and ideas real time. Keep it up and we will have these SHB's running for cover.
Thank you Barry!


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

I hear you on the quick draw...I think I'll get two holsters, do a Marshal Dillon drawdown on them when I kick the cover off. I'll have to kick it off 'cause I'll have hive tools in both hands ready to blast, er, smash away!!! 

I'm taking it that by "the set up that we were discussing" that you're referring to a full-sun positioning and away from trees/bushes? Makes sense that they would hang out in the bushes waiting for an opportune time.

Landing boards are nice for the bees, but are they really necessary? Would the beetles have more difficulty entering the hives if they didn't have the landing board? Or, do the landing boards allow the bees to spot the beetles approaching the entrance and possibly repel them more quickly outside the entrance?

Ed


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Ha! Get you a "festus" with a scatter gun to back ya up... lol. 

I think that the landing board actually does make a bit of difference in just that way, that beetles are enticed to land a little bit further away from the entrance, letting the bees get to work guarding against them a little sooner... every little bit helps... 

Not necessarily full sun... think of your west side woodline... the taller the trees are, the further out the shadow will cast... so if short trees will cast a shadow twenty feet at 6:30pm, then taller trees may cast a shadow 40 feet at the same time... thus with taller trees, you can place the hives further out away from the woodline and still get shade at the same time as you would with shorter trees... make sense?


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

This is how I chose to trap the beetles At first their was more than I expected showing up in traps but then I haven't seen many since
I put these on top of the top deep. I put beetle juice in the botom of the trap in middle and each side then carefully squeezed some roach gel into where the beetle juice was and smushed it in and around. The beetles are well under control. I should probably refresh the traps a bit at this point.








Best of luck to everybody with these critters. They're aromored up.


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