# Dying Hive



## PrestonFM (Jul 31, 2008)

I caught a swarm a couple of months ago and it just isn't doing well. For a while it looked like it was building up but now it looks as if they are fewer bees. Not only that but the brood pattern is erratic. A drone here, a worker there, or nothing at all. 

However, this being my first year makes me a newbee and all I thought I'd get some other opinions.

http://picasaweb.google.com/prestonfm/DyingBees/photo#5229956516170767346

use the magnifying glass to really zoom in

Is that a queen cell in the bottom right? Also one of the cappings (middle bottom) looks a bit black on the edges.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

In the bottom right of your photo, there is a sad excuse for a queen cell. If you have no eggs, you may have no queen. If that is the case, this queen cell does not look like it will do the job - you need a replacement queen, soon.


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## Budster (Mar 24, 2006)

My guess is a queenless hive with a laying worker.


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## golddust-twins (Sep 8, 2007)

>My guess is a queenless hive with a laying worker. 

By just looking at the pic Budster may be right. If it were my hive this would be my quess.

Corinne


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Maybe a failing/failed queen, but since some of the capped brood is worker brood, if it is a laying worker hive, it hasn't been one for long (in almost all circumstances laying workers only lay drones) - usually laying workers don't become a problem (surrogate queens) until there is an extended period without open brood. Are there many other eggs or open brood in the hive? I notice there are a few larvae, even very young ones on this frame, but not many, they can retard the development of laying workers into surrogate queens - I'd watch to see of they are capped as workers or drones, and look carefully for signs of a queen, that stunted queen cell may be an attempt to supersede a failed/failing queen, or replace a lost queen. Though it does seem to indicate they are ready to grow themselves a replacement queen, if you have another hive that can donate a frame of emerging worker brood that includes some eggs, or an additional frame with eggs, they may grow some decent queen cells. If you provide those resources and they make more queen cells, I'd leave a few of the best looking ones and destroy the others, especially this runty one. Also be very diligent in searching for any resident queens and removing them if they are at fault, since their presence can frustrate any attempts to replace them with a more suitable queen.


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## PrestonFM (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok, I just went and looked at all the frames again. No workers, just drones. 

Now I'm a bit panicky. I need to requeen... now! If I take a frame from the other hive do I take all the workers with it? Or do I blow them off somehow. How can I force the laying of a queen cell? How long do I have to get this fixed before the hive dies?

Thanks to everyone for their input.


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## golddust-twins (Sep 8, 2007)

>usually laying workers don't become a problem (surrogate queens) until there is an extended period without open brood. 

Joseph, how long is the extended period without open brood before the laying workers become a problem?

PrestonFM--Don't panic. Here is some info to read from Michael Bush's site http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm Here is some info on moving frames with eggs http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219722 
Hope this helps.

Corinne


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Shake the bees somewhere and forget about this. Whatever you are going to achive by using other recources, you can achive without this hive. 
Gilman


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## golddust-twins (Sep 8, 2007)

I requeened my LW Hive with one of Old Sol Enterprises queens and with great success. Place her between two frames of capped brood and place it down the middle of the hive. Added a half a gallon of feed and left the hive alone for 10 days. When I check she was released and laying eggs. One week later I had 2 & 1/2 frames full of capped brood.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

golddust-twins said:


> Joseph, how long is the extended period without open brood before the laying workers become a problem?


As most natural things, absolutes are elusive, but I think I've seen more hopelessly queenless and laying worker hives than I ever expected or wanted to. I am a chronic micro-manager, which inspires me to be extra observant and rarely see hopeless laying worker hives sooner than five or six weeks after becoming queenless, though I'm sure that it could happen much sooner (nature is often fickle about absolutes).

-----
I recently recovered a "hopelessly queenless laying worker hive" (it seemed they had at least two laying workers or groups, one on either side of a single story 8-frame colony). Twice I added a little open brood, each time I included a cultured ripe queen cell, the second one is now nicely building that colonies strength (now two supers strong), they were once down to only four frames of bees.

It isn't always as easy as this one was, sometimes I give up and do a combine. Though it is challenging and rewarding to be successful at turning one around.


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## nursebee (Sep 29, 2003)

It is tough to tell but it looks to me like the bottom left of the pic shows eggs in the cells. I see one egg per cell, right in the middle and sticking up. This is the sign of a laying queen, not a laying worker. What bees are alive look like workers. If I am wrong you will see more drones.

Laying workers have more than one egg in the cells with regularity. They also have poor aim as to where the eggs go.

If it were me I'd keep the hive well fed to build them up.

Perhaps they swarmed or the queen died.


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## golddust-twins (Sep 8, 2007)

*Joseph, I don't want to veer too far from PrestonFM's subject, but I do have a question. You stated >extra observant and rarely see hopeless laying worker hives sooner than five or six weeks after becoming queenless. What is it you witness outside and/or inside of the hive to make the determination of the hive being "hopelessly queenless"? Specifically the first signs, which would give indication to keep a closer eye on a particular hive?*

* Corinne*


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

One of the first things I notice is signs of a lost or failing queen - few or no eggs or young larvae, some supersedure or emergency queen cells, poor brood pattern often with varying amounts of drone brood in worker cells. If I find a queen and she doesn't look like a virgin, I often assume she is failing. If I have one available, I will replace her with a cultured queen cell. There usually isn't any outwardly noticeable difference this early in the process. Once they are queenless they usually become somewhat more defensive, but not always.

Earlier this season, when I had begun to harvest and check up on my strongest hives - one in particular with six full honey supers and the entire front of the hive bearded every night was found to be queenless and entirely without brood. I never discovered how they had become queenless, but I gave them a sealed queen cell and she successfully restored them to queenright status before the situation became any worse.

Frequently I've seen recently emerged Cordovan Italian virgins being balled by the bees in their mating Nucs, especially if those bees were from a non-Cordovan mother queen. But this hasn't happened as often with mating Nucs populated with bees bred from Cordovan Italian homozygous mother queens, even if all the offspring were normal colored, showing that queen to be mated with only normal colored drones. If this balling happens I quickly give that Nuc some emerging brood from Cordovan Italian mothers with their next queen cell or they may develop laying workers before I can get them queenright.


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## PrestonFM (Jul 31, 2008)

nursebee said:


> It is tough to tell but it looks to me like the bottom left of the pic shows eggs in the cells. I see one egg per cell, right in the middle and sticking up. This is the sign of a laying queen, not a laying worker.


The picture I posted was a week old. When I went out to check everything I couldn't find that tiny queen cell. A week isn't long enough for her to start laying is it?

BTW I moved a frame with egg and uncapped larve from a strong give into the brood chamber.


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## nursebee (Sep 29, 2003)

I think I see similar such "queen cells" in every hive. The presence of these does not mean they ahve raised a queen. Your pic of a QC looks more like new wax with room for a queen to be raised, not one that hatched. 

I'm not sure you got my point in the above quote. I THINK YOU HAVE A GOOD QUEEN IN THAT ORIGINAL PIC.


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## golddust-twins (Sep 8, 2007)

*thank you Joseph*

Thank you Joseph, for answering my question. I would like to continue this discussion. I have some other questions and will start another thread under "Beekeeping 101" within the next couple of days. I don't want to take away from this thread with my own questions. 


Corinne


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