# Selecting for Resistance (T/F, independent/thriving)



## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

I've been making plans to go over my records to start refining a system of breeder selection. This is an apiary of (currently) just under 60 hives, run on a 'live and let die' basis.

The records go back 3 years, and show (among other things) date of aquisition or creation - by swarm, cut-out or split, with mother and place of mating noted.

I don't know which colonies have replaced their queens, so its all a bit rough and ready - but its all I've got. The idea of going through this now is partly to think about how to improve record keeping to make this more effective in the future. (Before anyone suggests it, marking queens won't be happening this year and probably never.)

I want to use this data (and more acquired between now and the breeding season) to prioritise hives.

I've roughed out the below scheme, which loads data to a spreadsheet, which then makes a ranked list.


Below are several runs, paired to show the effects of changing 1 variable, and last showing the effect of maximum and minimum scores. 'Age' is just present year minus year acquired; 'Yield' is number of lifts filled last season; 'Origin' in a value between 1 and 2.5 that represents my best judgement about the likely 'free-thriving' capability of the genes. So if they've come from, for example, a wild colony that I understand to have been present unbroken for 5 years or more, and which has perhaps given me good bees in previous years, they'll get a high score. If I picked them up outside a treating apiary they won't. 

Can anyone offer thoughts or criticisms, or suggestions toward improvement? I really do want to concentrate only on surviving/thriving values at the moment. I'm putting up with meanness, and I don't worry about runnyness. I can't monitor for swarming. In general I only open hives if I want to get something out - not for information gathering purposes. 

A thought already rises (this is a work in progress that I only started a couple of hours ago): a 'dwv' rating should probably go on.








(Click to enlarge)

Mike (UK)


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Until you understand what is happening inside the colony, your progress will be slow at best.

1. You need to know just how heavily each colony is infested with mites, particularly late in the fall.

2. You need to know the status of the queen, I would suggest marking your queens so you know when they swarmed.

3. You need to know how early in the spring they begin brood rearing which means an inspection sometime in January or February.

Other than that, manage them to make a crop of honey and the good will rise to the top.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Fusion_power said:


> Until you understand what is happening inside the colony, your progress will be slow at best.
> 
> 1. You need to know just how heavily each colony is infested with mites, particularly late in the fall.


I think this plays itself out Darren. If a colony is heavily infected in the fall it probably won't be building strongly in the spring. When the breeding season starts it will be an obvious non thriver. Therefore I don't need to know how heavily mite infested each colony is in the fall. Don't forget; to be a candidate at all it will have had a minimum 2 years and more likely 3 in which to demonstrate it can thrive alone. 




Fusion_power said:


> 2. You need to know the status of the queen, I would suggest marking your queens so you know when they swarmed.


I agree this would be useful. I try to minimise swarming by giving room, but my eyes are not good enough, and my bees often too snarky and/or runny, and my back is too weak, to make queen marking a proposition. And there just aren't enough hours available for it. My strategy is to have lots of hives from which to select, and to dominate the dronespace, and that means lots of work making boxes and frames, putting them on and taking them off and dealing with the honey with inadequate equipment. Not to mention expanding as rapidly as I can. And I think my approach can work, just as well, with a good record keeping and selection system. Its playing the odds a bit more, but I'm making up for that in other ways.



Fusion_power said:


> 3. You need to know how early in the spring they begin brood rearing which means an inspection sometime in January or February.


Currrently all are contracted for topfruit pollination, so I'll be building them as fast as I can. That's not ideal, but that's the regime - it pays money, and gets me a great year-round site. I'll be rating them all for size at pollination time. So that will give me that reading. Quite what i'll do with it I don't know! Why do you think that's useful data? 



Fusion_power said:


> Other than that, manage them to make a crop of honey and the good will rise to the top.


That's the idea. I have to learn the characteristics of the new site to know how best to manage them for production (and I have to learn how to do that to best effect without causing problems in my feral population). But these will be my production hives, managed as much as possible to provide me with material for making increase, and data for selection purposes. So as well as a good evaluation scheme I have to be managing them in a way that doesn't skew the data. 

Thanks for your thoughts,

Mike (UK)


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

mike bispham said:


> and to dominate the dronespace


Mike maybe you know the technique. I have never experienced. However by reading makes sense and can save a lot of work on the task to saturate an area with the desired drones. See here please http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/files/articles/Bee_Culture/BC2006-06.pdf

> 3. You need to know how early in the spring they begin brood rearing which means an inspection sometime in January or February.> Fusion I have de same doubt. Why do you think that's useful data?


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

Find and Mark your queens in March when colonies are relatively small and the queens are easy to find.
You should be able to do 60 in a day no problem.


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

mike bispham said:


> I've been making plans to go over my records to start refining a system of breeder selection. This is an apiary of (currently) just under 60 hives, run on a 'live and let die' basis.
> 
> The records go back 3 years, and show (among other things) date of aquisition or creation - by swarm, cut-out or split, with mother and place of mating noted.
> 
> ...


Ok I have to ask. If you are going by the 'live and let die' why keep records?? The live hives should be the breeders.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Cabin said:


> Ok I have to ask. If you are going by the 'live and let die' why keep records?? The live hives should be the breeders.


There are lots of live hives. I want to find among those the best for my purposes.

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

jonathan said:


> Find and Mark your queens in March when colonies are relatively small and the queens are easy to find.
> You should be able to do 60 in a day no problem.


Good advice, but what would I do with this information Jonathan? What powers would it give me that I could incorporate into a system of the sort that would suit my program? 

Mike (UK)


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

mike bispham said:


> Good advice, but what would I do with this information ...


:scratch: :s

_Fusion_power _suggested marking your queens in post #3, and you responded ....


mike bispham said:


> I agree this would be useful.


 :kn:


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> _Fusion_power _suggested marking your queens in post #3, and you responded ....


After half a dozen words there was a 'but'. There followed my reasons for thinking this was not for me.

Mike (UK)


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

mike bispham said:


> Good advice, but what would I do with this information Jonathan? What powers would it give me that I could incorporate into a system of the sort that would suit my program?
> 
> Mike (UK)


It would tell you if a hive had changed queen via swarming or supersedure.
Supersedure is much more common than you might imagine and this becomes apparent when you mark queens.

Marking allows you to find queens more quickly when you need to which you have to do with various queen rearing systems.
As above, if you are making nucs or splits it is beneficial to know where the queen is.
It also allows to to determine the age of a queen with confidence.
Keeping records about the relatedness and origin of queens is important in any breeding programme.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

jonathan said:


> It would tell you if a hive had changed queen via swarming or supersedure.
> Supersedure is much more common than you might imagine and this becomes apparent when you mark queens.


Only after you'd looked in your large stroppy heavy hive a second time. And then you might find a daughter who may well be worth breeding from anyway. But ok, I'm starting to be persuaded.



jonathan said:


> Marking allows you to find queens more quickly when you need to which you have to do with various queen rearing systems.


Will I want to be using those systems - or just taking out a frame of eggs/brood? I'm not looking to make thousands of queens, just to make increase from my best.



jonathan said:


> As above, if you are making nucs or splits it is beneficial to know where the queen is.


I was planning to use methods that don't require the queen to be found, ie by splitting the hive in two and then looking for eggs/emergency cells a week later. Followed probably by the Millar method. 



jonathan said:


> It also allows to to determine the age of a queen with confidence.


Only once you've started marking fresh queens. And, I'm not sure I'll ever be very concerned about the age of a queen. 



jonathan said:


> Keeping records about the relatedness and origin of queens is important in any breeding programme.


There are 'intensive close breeding programs' and there is 'selective husbandry' and lots inbetween. We've been here before. I think I can raise and maintain desirable traits by force of numbers and rough and ready selection; more rule of thumb than precision engineering.

Mike (UK)


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

mike bispham said:


> After half a dozen words there was a 'but'. There followed my reasons for thinking this was not for me.
> 
> Mike (UK)


The 'but' was not beekeeping reasons but rather about your poor eyesight, weak back, (claimed) fast queens etc etc, making it too hard for you to find the queen. It does not negate that marking them is a great idea in a breeding operation. When your hive swarms or supersedes and the new queen's genetics are 50% diluted from the mothers, or does it twice and genetics is diluted 75% from the bee you thought you had, it's great if you can know that happened. My breeder queens and any potential breeder queens are marked and I would hate to be doing what I do without that. My breeders are selected from my production hives. If I choose a hive as a possible breeder I mark the queen, pointless if I go back in a couple of months to use that queen & not sure if it's the same one. Me, I would be lost if trying to run a breed improvement program without knowing what I am breeding from.

Mike I saw the pic you once posted of your yard, with hives on top of each other and roof type structures running over the whole thing, I knew working those hives would be a nightmare. I don't think you have a weak back, it's more about ergonomics, it would take an extremely strong and athletic man to be able to work your hives without suffering some major discomfort. How about having the hives stand individually, and with a decent gap between each one. You will be amazed how much easier this would make your life, I'll bet you would even be able to find queens.

I've worked a few hives in my day but even I would be rather intimidated if confronted with your bee yard that you pictured, and told to go through and find all the queens. I would certainly have a sore back by the end.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> The 'but' was not beekeeping reasons but rather about your poor eyesight, weak back, (claimed) fast queens etc etc, making it too hard for you to find the queen. It does not negate that marking them is a great idea in a breeding operation.


I agree. But there they are. And there is a larger one, which I've already mentioned; I want to direct my energies into making increase. I'd like to think about doubling numbers this year. That really is a lot of work, given that I have to make all the hives from scatch, assemble all the frames, and I'll already be managing 60 hives, dealing with honey (with inadequate gear), building a barn for somebody; I have other infrastucture works to deal with, other admin tasks... The fact is: only I know my life, and only I can plan it. And my plan is to use this year's crop to finance better honey gear (but I have to develop sales first..), and to be in the position of being able to start working more seriously on refining my genetics next year. 

So rough and ready is all I'm looking for. I don't have the data to do much more.

But yes, marking queens is something I should consider more carefully, and I am, and will continue to consider it. 

This thread was however aimed at a different aspect of selection; how to best balance the data I have (and will have in a few months time) in order to make a good scorecard for this coming year. 



Oldtimer said:


> Mike I saw the pic you once posted of your yard, with hives on top of each other and roof type structures running over the whole thing, I knew working those hives would be a nightmare. I don't think you have a weak back, it's more about ergonomics, it would take an extremely strong and athletic man to be able to work your hives without suffering some major discomfort. How about having the hives stand individually, and with a decent gap between each one. You will be amazed how much easier this would make your life, I'll bet you would even be able to find queens.


You're right - it is a pain to work with; although I usually pull hives out to work with them, and that's ok. It would be better if I had room to do it from round the back, and if it was higher, and if I used a trestle table to work on instead of the ground. It was an experiment that I'm learning from. One of the main things it was meant to achieve was the ability to make nucs without having to make roofs - which are surprisingly time consuming and unless you have a free source of timber, drain the bank account. And the thing only took half an hour to asssemble - that was a major consideration. I still like the idea of racks and no roofs. I'm now considering using racks in an open sided barn I have (I trialed it last year, with nucs set against holes made in the side of the barn. I didn't like it much, and might try racks facing out this year) More probably I'll mostly work over existing hives. 



Oldtimer said:


> I've worked a few hives in my day but even I would be rather intimidated if confronted with your bee yard that you pictured, and told to go through and find all the queens. I would certainly have a sore back by the end.


I've had ankylosing spondylitus for nearly 30 years. I've worked as a self employed (= self-paced) joiner most of that time. I know my back, and nowadays, touch wood, I know how to work around it. Getting involved in heavy work is madness, but there you are, I'm doing something I've wanted to do for a long time. Making that rack saved me making 18 roofs. Workshop work is hard on my particular back. There's method in the madness.

Mike (UK)


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

I make roofs out of old correx election posters. Nucs as well. Nice and light to work with.
Ugly looking if you are a joiner but the bees don't care.
I also make floors and roofs out of scrap wood. I buy the brood boxes in the sales. There are several on in the UK at the moment, Thorne and Paynes.

















I am also looking to make increase this year and have the same issues re. lack of funding.
Bear in mind that the time to count your viable stock is late March rather than early January.
I don't have losses yet this winter but it is far too early to be counting.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

jonathan said:


> I make roofs out of old correx election posters. Nucs as well. Nice and light to work with.
> Ugly looking if you are a joiner but the bees don't care.
> I also make floors and roofs out of scrap wood. I buy the brood boxes in the sales. There are several on in the UK at the moment, Thorne and Paynes.
> 
> I am also looking to make increase this year and have the same issues re. lack of funding.


I like big lids. A bit of something under the hives to stop rising damp, and a single brood box stays pretty dry. In the 2nd photo you can see my quick summer/temporary tops being used for added rain cover. (In the first photo you can see I'm behind on the covers program!)

















For roofs and quick lifts I have a supply of industrial waste chinese 3/4 ply, and buy offcuts of felt from a roofer. They're heavy, but it saves putting blocks on top to keep the badgers out. The ones in the photo are recovered 9mm birch ply - from large cable drums. Good stuff, but I can't get it any more.

I like cedar for my brood boxes and prefer it too for lifts - I don't think the chinese ply will last. I buy sawn cedar from a local farm mill - this lot was £200 and is (I hope) enough to build 40 each brood boxes and lifts. (The near pile is unfinished)











jonathan said:


> Bear in mind that the time to count your viable stock is late March rather than early January.
> I don't have losses yet this winter but it is far too early to be counting.


Yes. I'm going to add a build-up factor to my calculator. I think its then just a case of trying out different value scales to get to a result that reflects what I want. The lost ones won't come up very high 

Mike (UK)


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