# Hives in the Sun--how many SHB stay vs leave until cooler?



## TimStout (Feb 5, 2014)

I understand that some small hive beetles leave a hive if it gets too hot and then come back when it gets cooler. Therefore, it is recommended to leave hives in a sunlit area even on a hot day. 

Does anyone have an idea of how many SHB might leave vs. stay when it gets hot?

This is related to the notion of zapping SHB on a robber screen alone or on a robber screen and also an internal zapper.


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## beegeorge (Apr 19, 2012)

I am most curious as how you plan to ZAP a hive beetle without zapping a bee..


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

TimStout said:


> I understand that some small hive beetles leave a hive if it gets too hot and then come back when it gets cooler. Therefore, it is recommended to leave hives in a sunlit area even on a hot day.


where did you come up with this theory?


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## TimStout (Feb 5, 2014)

beegeorge said:


> I am most curious as how you plan to ZAP a hive beetle without zapping a bee..


The beetle walks across an electrode which shocks him. There is some sort of cap or other barrier, depending on the location, which results in a gap of about 1/8 of an inch between the top of the electrode and the barrier. The SHB thinks it is going into a crack for hiding, not realizing the he is about to be zapped. A bee is too large to fit into the gap. So, a bee chases the beetle into the electrodes but she herself can't reach them.


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## TimStout (Feb 5, 2014)

burns375 said:


> where did you come up with this theory?



I was talking to a beekeeper who said that at least some of the SHB will leave during the day if a hive is hot and then he can see them come back at night after it starts cooling. Perhaps they are different SHB, perhaps he misinterpreted what he saw, I don't know. It is fairly well understood, though, that it is best to keep hives in the open sun in locations with a strong SHB infestation. I suppose I am mostly curious about whether SHB actually do leave a hot hive. It seems that that might explain why placing a hive in direct sunlight helps keep SHB in control.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

I don't have any answers for you but I will say from my own experience that they love shade and pollen sub patties. I like your idea a lot the only thing that pops into my mind is an 1/8" seems perfect for them to hide in but may plug up quickly. 

Can't wait to hear how it goes.


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## TimStout (Feb 5, 2014)

The internal zappers are mounted in vertical slots placed in the inner cover. The slots are flush with the inside of the long hive body walls, so a bee chasing a beetle up the wall will chase it right into the slot. No need to wait until it crawls over the frames to zap it. By contrast, a lot of internal traps don't do anything until the beetles crawl over the frames, since the traps are mounted between frames. Giving beetles free reign within a hive until they are crawling over frames seems a dangerous way to live. 

I expect bees to propolyze the slot. However, it is designed so that the slot can be cleaned from the top. You simply remove the top cover and scrape out the slot from the top. There is no need to remove the inner cover. There is no need to break open your hives to maintain an internal oil trap. At least that's the idea, I haven't had a chance to try it yet. Next week we should start some field tests.

Incidentally, if this makes it to a Kickstarter project, I will sell electrodes and provide instructions so that a person can modify his own inner covers to do this for a very economical price. I hope it will be on Kickstarter within a few weeks.




beesohappy said:


> I don't have any answers for you but I will say from my own experience that they love shade and pollen sub patties. I like your idea a lot the only thing that pops into my mind is an 1/8" seems perfect for them to hide in but may plug up quickly.
> 
> Can't wait to hear how it goes.


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## Rob73 (Apr 19, 2009)

It seems to me, the trick to managing the small hive beetle, will be to lure them or find a suitable predator for them. I am sure there is no way to get rid of every last small hive beetle in our local areas. They are going to be here forever probably. If we could lure them away from the hive, into another box at the side or back for trapping maybe. Maybe finding a predator for the small hive beetle that could be managed around the bee yard would provide a natural method of control. They have lure for japanese beetles & lure for bee swarms. Surely there is some pheromone that attracts a small hive beetle.

I am no scientist, and I am sure they are thinking of all the solutions. I am sure they would think up a far greater idea that I would. But, the real trick may be for man to start raising small hive beetles. Just think of how many bees we have killed trying to do whats best for the bees. Maybe if I had a colony or two of small hive beetles, their numbers would diminish like the bee populations! If were managing a colony of small hive beetles, they would all die the first winter of starvation!


Rob


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## TimStout (Feb 5, 2014)

Rob73 said:


> It seems to me, the trick to managing the small hive beetle, will be to lure them ...
> Rob


If you read my main thread on zapping hive beetles, you will see that I use the hive itself as the lure. The beetles go straight to a robber screen, the home bees go to the true entrance. So, the screen acts as a separator. The screen is surrounded by electrodes. As the beetles start crawling on the screen in an effort to find a way into the hive, they crawl over an electrode and are zapped. Bees are protected from the electrodes by a 1/8 gap between the electrodes and a cover placed over the electrodes.

There are also optional electrodes inserted into the inner cover. Beetles that do make it into the hive can crawl into what they think is a gap but is actually an electrode chamber and then get zapped. 

Actually, I AM a scientist (physics, UCLA) with decades of electronic and mechanical design engineering experience. I am not a beekeeper, but have a track record of successfully solving engineering problems in a creative way. I have studied the hive beetle problem fairly intensely and this is my proposed solution to the problem. We should start testing it any day now.

Tim Stout


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## Rob73 (Apr 19, 2009)

Respectfully, I did read your post. Also, I did say that I wasnt a scientist and that they would come up with much better solutions that I would. I wish you the best of luck with it, and I hope it is successful. From your post, it sounds promising. 

I am a beekeeper, and I would think there would be some sort of "natural" solution to the issue. I was not trying to contradict your solution. 

Rob


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Tim Its a decent idea, im not following the entrance idea. Maybe you should keep bees for a little while. Hives have top entrances, gaps between boxes, and screened bottom boards. The beetles still come in. Perhaps a baited unit inside the hive, but that would be no better than poisened bait. 

Can you elaborate on how the entrance would be designed, perhaps a picture.

ps degrees don't mean much, i have a mechanical engineering degree from The Ohio State and it hasn't done much good as far as bees.


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## Clif Schlicher (Feb 6, 2014)

The idea of placing the hives in the sun is foil pupation by the SHB larvae, Larvae crawl out of the hive and go into the ground to pupate. Sunlit ground, drier drier environment, less chance of survival. I think this assumes hive stands off the ground. Hives on the ground might actually encourage them.


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## TimStout (Feb 5, 2014)

Clif Schlicher said:


> The idea of placing the hives in the sun is foil pupation by the SHB larvae, Larvae crawl out of the hive and go into the ground to pupate. Sunlit ground, drier drier environment, less chance of survival....


Thanks, Chris.

What you are saying makes sense, I just wonder if its the whole story. I hear of many people talking about how they can see a large flow of hive beetles going into their hives in the evening. I wonder if they are getting that many new ones or if some of the beetles go back and forth, leaving during the heat of the day and returning later.

My hope is that they would go back and forth. I am working on a means of shocking the beetles to get rid of them. The main shocker would be on a robber screen to keep as many as possible from ever getting into the hive. A backup shocker could be placed at a convenient location internally, such as in the inner cover. However, it would be nice if the robber screen was effective enough by itself that the inner cover treatment would not be needed. I am just trying to figure out how to keep costs as low as possible.

--Tim


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

SHB fly most at dusk and night. Most likly what are being seen are new arrivals. The ones in the hives are normally corralled up and guarded in the hive and would find it difficult to just walk out. Also the interior of the hives are kept at a pretty constant 94 degrees. Bees fan regurgitate water and fan and decrease inside populations to maintain the temp. Otherwise the brood die. So outside temps normally do not translate to temps in the hives. It is as it has been said. Drier ground less than ideal pupating conditions.

I can also tell you this. When I extract just at dusk or shortly after. The SHB pretty much swarm the screens of my garage. And I know they didn't leave the garage and at returning at dusk. They can smell honey as well as bees do


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## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

Zapper !? We use D.E.....works like a charm .


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Yes, DE in a full bottom west style trap. Dries em up doesn't kill bees.


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## TimStout (Feb 5, 2014)

This makes a lot of sense, particularly the constant temperature in the hive. Thanks.



jbeshearse said:


> SHB fly most at dusk and night. Most likly what are being seen are new arrivals. The ones in the hives are normally corralled up and guarded in the hive and would find it difficult to just walk out. Also the interior of the hives are kept at a pretty constant 94 degrees. Bees fan regurgitate water and fan and decrease inside populations to maintain the temp. Otherwise the brood die. So outside temps normally do not translate to temps in the hives. It is as it has been said. Drier ground less than ideal pupating conditions.
> 
> I can also tell you this. When I extract just at dusk or shortly after. The SHB pretty much swarm the screens of my garage. And I know they didn't leave the garage and at returning at dusk. They can smell honey as well as bees do


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## TimStout (Feb 5, 2014)

tommysnare said:


> Zapper !? We use D.E.....works like a charm .


I'm glad you've had good results with DE. Maybe an internal zapper is not so important. It still seems that a hive would be better off if most of the beetles never got into the hive to begin with.


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## stavros (Feb 26, 2008)

Tim, I am willing to try your idea, if you are looking for someone: you can email me: [email protected] if you wish.
I hate SHB, and we have plenty in the south. Stavros


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