# Grafting without buying anything?



## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Any DIY tips for grafting without buying any supplies? Something like use a piece of solder with a hook and hang some cut out queen cups on a top bar?

I have acquired a bad habit of buying shiny new things and need to get back to improvising more. I keep looking at queen rearing systems and want to buy one but I don't need to raise 50 queens. Maybe 2 or 3 at a time.

Would be great to get some advice before I start poking at larvae with random things.

I have been doing walkaway splits and dividing up the frames with QCs to make nucs. Works fine but I'd like to learn how to raise queens in a more efficient way.

I could probably borrow or buy a chinese grafting tool if needed, could it be as simple as transferring eggs into a frame with cell cups, and making a nuc out of it before they emerge? Will they tear down the cell cups if they are queen right? I have extra frames with cell cups sitting around.


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## Buzzlightyear (Dec 4, 2013)

Paper clip, wood dowel, bees wax, frame, bees is all you need. Oh and some Macgyver brains wouldn't hurt.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Yup wood dowel for queen cups. Wire for grafting tool and make shift frames for cells. 

However it is so cheap to buy a German grafting tool and jz bz cups. The tool is so accurate time after time. 

20 bucks and you on you way to rearing easily a few hundred bucks in queens.


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## Buzzlightyear (Dec 4, 2013)

Like so.


























I was almost there but a virgin thought different.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

How about just using Hopkins method?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> Yup wood dowel for queen cups. Wire for grafting tool and make shift frames for cells.
> 
> However it is so cheap to buy a German grafting tool and jz bz cups. The tool is so accurate time after time.
> 
> 20 bucks and you on you way to rearing easily a few hundred bucks in queens.


My thoughts exactly. Find somewhere else to save money, where your efforts will have real results, rather than struggle as a beginning grafter with makeshift tools. I haven't been grafting very long, but have had great results with un-primed jzbz cups and a Chinese grafting tool.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

BeeCurious said:


> How about just using Hopkins method?


No, I wanted to try grafting.

I bit the bullet and spent $3 for 10 chinese grafting tools.

What size dowel for the cell cups? I assume you dip it in molten wax a few times like making a candle and then wax the cups to a top bar.



zhiv9 said:


> My thoughts exactly. Find somewhere else to save money, where your efforts will have real results, rather than struggle as a beginning grafter with makeshift tools. I haven't been grafting very long, but have had great results with un-primed jzbz cups and a Chinese grafting tool.


It's not about saving money.


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## Buzzlightyear (Dec 4, 2013)

This was my first attempt so it is totally doable without all the fancy stuff. 
I think I used 5/16 or 1/4 dowel I'll have to look. The Chinese tool works ok but takes up a bunch of room, can't see very well around it. I. Going to make my one hook to se how it works.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Buzzlightyear said:


> The Chinese tool works ok but takes up a bunch of room, can't see very well around it.


I find that once I get going with it, I don't need to see around. I just glance in the cell to check the size of the larvae and insert it blind. Once you have a feel for it you come up with a larva and jelly most of the time.


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## Buzzlightyear (Dec 4, 2013)

Cool thanks for the tip.


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## oldfordguy (Dec 5, 2009)

I made everything I needed from stuff I had laying around except for buying the Chinese grafting tools like you. I was easier than I thought! Here's a web page about some of the stuff I made for queen rearing, including how I made the cups for grafting into.
http://mannell.net/?p=9


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## Dave1958 (Mar 25, 2013)

Know down the edge of the cell where you can see. You are less likely to flip the larvae over, and if you do you know it


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

I struggled with the chinese tool. If fresh wax, it would punch through the bottom of the cell every time, and the times it did bend, it wouldn't lift the larvae, but pushed it across the cell bottom to the wall. I made a tool with a paperclip. I bent it out straight, hammered one end flat and fairly thin, then filed it down in wid. I added a slight bend to the last 1/2-1 mm and alsobent the tool about half way up so my hand wasn't directly above the cell, in my way. This homemade tool has allowd me to pick up larvae that is VERY yound, appeaing to be merehourshatched, and with very little jelly beneath. I didn't care for homemade wax cups, too delicate for me. I went with JZBZ as I got a bag of 100 locally for a few bucks. I don't place them early to polish, I add the grafts right out of the bag. I do prime the cup with a bit of jelly first so I can 'dip' the paperclip in and allow the larvae to lift off the tool. This has worked VERY well for me, getting 80%+ acceptance rates.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

DrJeseuss said:


> I struggled with the chinese tool. If fresh wax, it would punch through the bottom of the cell every time, and the times it did bend, it wouldn't lift the larvae, but pushed it across the cell bottom to the wall. I made a tool with a paperclip. I bent it out straight, hammered one end flat and fairly thin, then filed it down in wid. I added a slight bend to the last 1/2-1 mm and alsobent the tool about half way up so my hand wasn't directly above the cell, in my way. This homemade tool has allowd me to pick up larvae that is VERY yound, appeaing to be merehourshatched, and with very little jelly beneath. I didn't care for homemade wax cups, too delicate for me. I went with JZBZ as I got a bag of 100 locally for a few bucks. I don't place them early to polish, I add the grafts right out of the bag. I do prime the cup with a bit of jelly first so I can 'dip' the paperclip in and allow the larvae to lift off the tool. This has worked VERY well for me, getting 80%+ acceptance rates.


The trick to using a chinese grafting tool is a very dainty two finger (middle and thumb) grip and a very light touch. We have literally gotten 10,000 plus grafts out of a single tool (remember they are just $3.00). Seems like some work better than others, if you get a good one just keep it moist and handle it with care.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

DrJeseuss said:


> I struggled with the chinese tool. If fresh wax, it would punch through the bottom of the cell every time, and the times it did bend, it wouldn't lift the larvae, but pushed it across the cell bottom to the wall. I made a tool with a paperclip. I bent it out straight, hammered one end flat and fairly thin, then filed it down in wid. I added a slight bend to the last 1/2-1 mm and alsobent the tool about half way up so my hand wasn't directly above the cell, in my way. This homemade tool has allowd me to pick up larvae that is VERY yound, appeaing to be merehourshatched, and with very little jelly beneath. I didn't care for homemade wax cups, too delicate for me. I went with JZBZ as I got a bag of 100 locally for a few bucks. I don't place them early to polish, I add the grafts right out of the bag. I do prime the cup with a bit of jelly first so I can 'dip' the paperclip in and allow the larvae to lift off the tool. This has worked VERY well for me, getting 80%+ acceptance rates.


Was my experience with the Chinese tool as well. Only tried one time so I'm no pro obviously. Made some paper clip tools and bought a couple of the JZBZ plastic tools to try next time. I've noticed that my EBAY Chinese tools look different than most I've seen on videos. Bought another set of 10 and they seem MUCH different than the ones I was trying to use. Will give them a whirl sometime this summer hopefully.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

The chinese grafting tools definitely work better on older comb. The harder comb and rounded cell bottoms make a big difference.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

With the Chinese tool, what's the trick to getting the larvae off and into the cell. I saw them roll to the back of the 'tongue', smashed, or stuck right to the tip. I was moistening the tool, but maybe working too slow? With the paper clip they lifted right off.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

DrJeseuss said:


> With the Chinese tool, what's the trick to getting the larvae off and into the cell. I saw them roll to the back of the 'tongue', smashed, or stuck right to the tip. I was moistening the tool, but maybe working too slow? With the paper clip they lifted right off.


I just lay the tip of the tongue in the cell, closing any gap between the tongue and the plunger and then push the plunger down to push the larva off the tongue.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

A couple of pointers on the Chinese tool. I put the tip of the tool in my mouth prior to and between grafts. This keeps it a bit warmer, which lets it bend easier and keeps it moist. Second, twist/turn the tool while getting the tip under the larva. Be sure to get some jelly with the larva. 

When placing the larva in the cup, press the tip against the bottom causing it to bend, this closes the gap as Adam mentioned. As you push the plunger lift the tool slightly. The tool should push against the jelly and not the larva. The bend insures this if you got enough jelly when you picked the larva.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

My first frustrations were more from an inability to see the larvae more clearly. I eventually saw that a little twist of the Chinese grafting tool did help the tongue to turn / curl at the bottom of the cell. While I tossed a couple of tools aside at the beginning, I now know that they were fine but what was lacking was "finesse"...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You can certainly graft with a toothpick or a blade of grass, but the Chinese grafting tool gets the royal jelly along with the larva and that is well worth the cost. Of course you can dip your own cell cups (See Doolittle and Smith)

>With the Chinese tool, what's the trick to getting the larvae off and into the cell. I saw them roll to the back of the 'tongue', smashed, or stuck right to the tip.

The "gap" can be closed by pushing the tip to the bottom which pushes it against the hard upper portion that pushes the larvae off. If it is rolling under that part, then you are not keeping pressure against it. It takes some practice. I would describe the process like this:

Hold the Chinese grafting tool so that the horn part (the tongue) is against the wall of the cell you are grafting from. The "plunger" portion will be toward the center of the cell. Visualize the larva. Even if you lose sight of the larva, keep your eye on the spot you know it is. Slide the tongue down the wall until it hits the bottom. Tip it back slightly as you slide it across the bottom. Stop when the tip hits the wall. Lift up and slightly back simultaneously. This is so you don't just wipe the larva off on the side wall. If you do get it stuck on the wall, then you are not pulling back at the same time as you lift. It is a slightly complex motion but once you get the hang of it you will find it quite simple. Now press the tip down on the bottom of the queen cup and gently press the plunger while sliding the tool back. In other words, you pull the tongue out from under the larva as much as you push it off the tongue.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

jbeshearse said:


> A couple of pointers on the Chinese tool. I put the tip of the tool in my mouth prior to and between grafts. This keeps it a bit warmer, which lets it bend easier and keeps it moist. Second, twist/turn the tool while getting the tip under the larva. Be sure to get some jelly with the larva.
> 
> When placing the larva in the cup, press the tip against the bottom causing it to bend, this closes the gap as Adam mentioned. As you push the plunger lift the tool slightly. The tool should push against the jelly and not the larva. The bend insures this if you got enough jelly when you picked the larva.


Just like that, and if you don't like the shape of the tip you can tune it up with 600 wet & dry sandpaper. Just graft the wet spot, the larva comes with it.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

My cheapness has paid off, a friend who tried grafting gave me a german grafting tool, a JZBZ grafting tool, a bunch of chinese tools, a frame with cell cup mounts for one system, and a handful of new jzbz cell cups.

He was very happy to get rid of, told me good luck, you'll need it. I'm supposed to pay him back with mated queens. I guess we'll see.


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## Rebel Rider (Mar 26, 2015)

I found this. http://scientificbeekeeping.com/queens-for-pennies/


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

tanksbees said:


> My cheapness has paid off, a friend who tried grafting gave me a german grafting tool, a JZBZ grafting tool, a bunch of chinese tools, a frame with cell cup mounts for one system, and a handful of new jzbz cell cups.
> 
> He was very happy to get rid of, told me good luck, you'll need it. I'm supposed to pay him back with mated queens. I guess we'll see.


That's a pretty good trade, and you certainly covered 'without buying anything' nicely. Well done, and good luck in your grafting attempts. It's less scary once you've done it once and realize the potential.


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