# Hogan trap out sequence



## Luterra

I'm starting a trap out from a five-foot diameter oak tree, hoping to use the Hogan method to get the queen. 

Goals:
--get the queen and all (or nearly all) of the bees out
--rob out the honey
--seal up the cavity

My question is what to do once I have the queen in the trap. Options:

1. Close up the tunnel once the queen is in the trap, and move the queen and all trapped bees to a nearby empty hive. Place grass/branches in front of the entrance to trigger reorienting. Continue to move frames of bees at dusk from the trap to this new hive as the trapout progresses. When all bees are out of the tree, shake remaining bees from trap into the hive, and let the colony rob out the honey from the tree. Move bees all of apiece back to home apiary.

Problems: Likely flow of bees from new hive back to trap. Possible risk of the whole colony absconding back into the tree during rob-out period?

2. Move bees (including the queen) to home apiary in segments. Close up the tunnel once the queen is caught. When all bees are out, move the trap with remaining bees home, then bring out a different strong colony to rob out the tree.

Problems: Lots of moving bees. No vehicle access to home apiary makes moving bees a pain.


I like the elegant solution (#1) of keeping all the bees on site, letting them rob out their own honey, then bringing them home. Less disturbance of the bees, less hauling bees for me. Has anyone had luck doing this? 

Mark

Entrance tunnel in place. Going to add the box tomorrow morning.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Here is what I would do. Just a suggestion.

It may be a pain as you stated, but, I would take starts as soon as I got 3 to 5 pounds of bees in the trap to a new location, at least a couple of miles away. I would do this by removing frames from the trap to a regular hive. Leave the trap in place. Check to see if you got the queen. If so, great, If not, either order a new queen and insert, or insert new eggs and let them make a queen. If you don't need/want the new hive, sell it, or combine it with another hive.

Reset the trap with brood comb and frame of unsealed brood, and as soon as you have 3-5 pounds of bees, repeat above. You may find that a good tree will yield 12 to 20 pounds of bees. If you don't want additional starts, you could consider selling them as a queenless nucs, or you can join with any other colony you have.

As each start is taken away, it weakens the feral colony. If it takes longer than 48 hours to get 3 to 5 pounds of bees in the trap, you have severly weakened it. At that point install/activate the funnel and when no more bees are coming out from the tree, close off the trap entrance and tunnel and then move the last bunch of bees, and let other feral bees rob out the honey from the tree, or seal up the entrance to keep another swarm from entering the tree and setting up house.

I have never left trapped bees in the immediate area, and my fear would be that they may want to go back to the original feral colony. I find that removing 3 to 5 pounds of bees, as they accumulate in the trap, hastens the demise of the feral colony. As bees are taken away there are fewer bees to gather pollen/nectar, and tend any capped brood. If you activate/install the funnel and let all the bees accumulate in the trap, you may find yourself having to place 3 or 4 chambers on the trap, before you get all the bees out. I have seen this, and it did work, and the complete trapout yielded 2 deeps and 2 shallows full of bees. By the time the tree was depleted, the trap had brood, pollen, and lots of honey in it.

cchoganjr


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## Bill91143

I just built a Hogan trap and I have it set up on a tree now. I don't claim to know much about bees since I am only in my second season. I am lucky enough though to have Cleo Hogan as my mentor.

The bees are moving in and out of my box with no problem and I have some drawn comb in my trap hive. I've noticed some bees are staying on that comb. I haven't tried to lure the queen out yet. I'll probably install a frame of open brood in a few more days and see if I can tempt her into coming into the trap. Once I get the queen in the trap I'm going to place her and all the bees, with frames. into another hive body and start them out like you would a new split (giving them foundation and feeding). but I will leave the trap in place for a day or two more and catch as many of the straggler bees as I can. I don't think I'll try the robbing thing I would be afraid they would want to move back into the old hive. This is just my opinion which is worth about as much as a box of rocks. However if Cleo Hogan has time to answer this post he can tell you exactly what to do, and I'll be heeding his advice, also.


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## Bill91143

I see Cleo posted a reply while I was writing mine. So disregard most of what I said. Thanks


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

It took me a few minutes to figure out who Bill91143 is, but, I think I know now.

If this is Bill T. I would say your advise is worth more than a box of rocks. You did right well in making yourself a 5 frame nuc from one of my hives. (HA)

It is beginning to get late for trapping here in Central Kentucky. In a couple more weeks the queens will begin to cut back on laying eggs, and they will not be needing more room which you are providing her in the trap. Trapping for the queen is easier in early Spring when the queen is looking for any open cells to lay eggs. Later in the year, she has plenty of room, and then the only reason she will come into the trap, is the odor from the unsealed brood you gave her. If she doesn't need the room in the trap for eggs, she may go back into the tree, and the bees will likely use the trap to store Winter stores of honey. If this occurs, (starts storing honey in the trap), and if you want to eliminate the colony, activate/install the funnel and get all the bees out of the tree. If you were just wanting starts, or to get a queen, you might as well wait until next Spring. Let the colony build back up for Winter. 

If you take a queen, this late in the season, you may very well leave the feral colony without a way to make themselves a queen, due to fewer viable eggs in the feral brood nest.

If you are going to try for the queen, check your trap often, so she doesn't stay in the trap for a few days before you check, and all the eggs in the tree gets capped, If you take the queen, and all the brood in the tree is capped, they cannot make themselves a queen. Then the tree colony dies. You will have eliminated your cash cow.

cchoganjr


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## Luterra

Thanks Cleo for the quick response. I think I will take your advice of taking bees home in 3-5 lb increments. Given the modest amount of bee traffic at the entrance and the fact that we are in peak flow here right now, I would be surprised if there is more than a single deep worth of bees. But we shall see. 

I see that you recommend leaving the tunnel open and repeatedly baiting the trap until most of the bees are out. I will have to try that. Is there any advantage to keeping the tunnel open once the queen has been captured?

As for robbing, I might take a hive out there to do the robbing just because I'm interested to see what sort of honey is in there. If I did that it would be after I extract in late July/early August, during a relative dearth of nectar. Or I might just let the feral bees have it. Regardless I would like to get most of the honey out before sealing it up, as the landowner is very attached to the tree and I suspect that 50+ lbs of honey would accelerate rot inside the cavity.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Luterra said:


> . Is there any advantage to keeping the tunnel open once the queen has been captur.


Not if you are going for elimination of the colony. 

If you are taking starts, (and I see you are not), then, leaving the tunnel open helps to get a better mix of bees for the start quicker.

Taking a hive and letting them rob out the honey is a good idea, as some trees will have several pounds of honey in the tree. Might as well go to help your hive through the Winter.

cchoganjr


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## Bill91143

Cleo, I just built a second trap and installed it on a Bedford stone house that has a hive of bees in the exterior wall between the stone and the framed wall. Do you have any suggestions for getting the bees out that differs from getting them out of a tree?
Thanks,
Bill T.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

No real difference, but, normally houses are more difficult to seal all entrances. Probability of getting the queen is normally far less in a building due to the entrance(s) nor being near the brood nest. In buildings, bees may enter at a convenient point, then travel several feet, to build their colony between floor joists, or wall studs or rafters.

Bill, call me and we can discuss.

cchoganjr


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## Luterra

I'll keep this thread updated as the trapout progresses, as it is my first one.

Today, 36 hours after adding the box to the tunnel, the box was 70% full of bees, with the most on the frame with brood. No queen unfortunately, nor any fresh eggs, and they are starting to put nectar in the rest of the frames making the trap box into a storage area rather than a broodnest expansion. Not surprising as it is peak flow here - probably would have had better chances of getting the queen if I had started a month ago but I'm not giving up just yet. I'm planning to add another frame of brood next Monday and then a third one next Friday, with periodic checks for the queen until 6/24. If I don't have the queen by then I will activate the one-way exit and start drawing down the population in the tree.


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## Bill91143

When you say your hive is 70% full, how many bees are you talking about? I started my first trapout, about the same time as you. My trap has had brood in it for about 36 hours as of now. I just checked my box and I have only the one brood frame covered with bees. It is covered solid plus a few others hanging around in the box. Judging the size of a 3 pound package I would say I have about a pound and a half of bees in my box. I was wondering if I should go ahead and take these or wait a while longer. I think tomorrow I may go on and take the bees that are in there now and leave the brood there and see if in a couple of days I can catch another pound or so. I tried to call Cleo Hogan and ask if he thought I should take what bees I had then, but since I couldn't reach him I elected to give them another day before taking any bees. And like you, I haven't drawn the queen out yet.


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## Ben Franklin

Private Mr Hogan,,he answered me promptly.


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## Bill91143

I never have any trouble getting in contact with him. It was just at the time I called I didn't make contact and I was at the trapout site. I will call him later this evening.


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## josephus1

Hi, If you will look on ebay you will see a trap I designed that appears to be a sure way to get the queen over and laying eggs in 5 to six days. While it would be wrong to guarantee 100 percent it sure works so well. I would say that something would have to make an exception that it did not work. This set up will allow you to get the queen and all bees over with just a few stages of trapping. It is listed on ebay as ultra nuc box.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

josephus1 said:


> Hi, If you will look on ebay you will see a trap I designed that appears to be a sure way to get the queen over. It is listed on ebay as ultra nuc box.


How about a link. I went to ebay and searched, ultra nuc box It did not come up.


UPDATE.... IT IS UP NOW. FOUND IT...... ultra nuc box

cchoganjr


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## josephus1

http://www.ebay.com/itm/130928184013?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649


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## bevy's honeybees

Cleo, I have a new computer and don't have instructions you emailed to me last summer--could you send them again?

My co-worker's son found a bee tree (he is a future beekeeper  and I think he wants me to set up a trap out for the fun of it. We want to leave the queen--I would use starts for a couple small hives, depending how strong the tree bees are. 

I have the pre made trap out, and the red cone is in at this time. I still have a screen and tape on outer tunnel where I can easily apply to the tree, and it sounds like it's about 4-5 feet from the ground. I haven't seen it yet to determine if I will have a problem with other entrances. 

I will know when to pull trap as to not depleat the tree bees too much?
Thanks, hope I'm not hijacking this thread...so sorry if I am.


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## Luterra

I have eight frames in the trap, all drawn and one with brood. The one with brood was 100% covered with bees, all of the other frames except the far outside one were about 30-60% covered, and the field bees were starting to store nectar in nearly all of the frames. I'm thinking to bring two more brood frames next week, which will give three brood frames in the box. Right now they are treating the trap as a honey super that just happens to have some brood in it. I'm thinking that with more brood they may begin to view it as a brood chamber and the queen might come out to lay. I'm not planning to take away any bees until I give up on getting the queen, as I'm thinking that crowded conditions will make the queen more likely to come out (though of course also more difficult to spot).

Interestingly, the hive is way more active now that I have added the trap. It is possible that they had all available space plugged out with honey in the tree and were not foraging intensely until I added the extra space.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Luterra... Looks like your bees have turned their attention from brood rearing to honey storage. That is beginning to happen here, and it gets more difficult to get good starts, or the queen, this time of year.

cchoganjr


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## Bill91143

Cleo, I just did what we talked about last night. I took a junk queen that I intended to replace anyway, and installed her in a frame size cage and placed her in the bee trap. I hope the presence of a foreign queen will be enough to entice the queen into coming into the trap. Last night there was about a pound and a half of bees in the trap. This morning there are at least 3 pounds of bees. Tonight I will probably transfer those bees into a 5 frame nuc box. Even if I don't get many bees I'm having a ball trying to get the bees out. Reminds me of fishing or hunting. If what you are doing isn't working, then try something else!


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## Bill91143

I just came from the bee tree. I took about 3 pounds of bees from the trap, but still no queen. I'm going to combine these bees with a weak hive that is needing some help.


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## Harley Craig

josephus1 said:


> Hi, If you will look on ebay you will see a trap I designed that appears to be a sure way to get the queen over and laying eggs in 5 to six days. While it would be wrong to guarantee 100 percent it sure works so well. I would say that something would have to make an exception that it did not work. This set up will allow you to get the queen and all bees over with just a few stages of trapping. It is listed on ebay as ultra nuc box.


What is the premis of this ultra nuc box
why would it work. Better than a hogan style trap


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Harley Craig.... Hopefully he will explain the premise for his trap. I looked at it, and, I must admit, I don't understand it. 

If you can reasonably expect 100% guarantee to get the queen, then, that is a big jump forward for beekeeping and trap outs. I mean, this is big news. 

I have been working on trapouts for over 25 years, and I cannot expect 100% to get the queen. Not even close. Trees with few entrances to seal would have a probability of perhaps 70% - 80%. In buildings the probability goes down to perhaps 40% to 50%, and those probabilities are based on lots of factors like the queen looking for any cells to lay in, good honey flow, lots of bees, feral source crowded.

In fact, in the method that I developed, and have shared with hundreds of beekeepers, was not developed to get the queen, but rather was developed to take starts, with the right mix of bees, from a good source, and use that source year after year. In early Spring I have taken a queen, but, normally I return her to the tree and take the bees. I accidentially lucked up on the process while doing a screen cone funnel trapout. What I was looking for was a way to get the right mix of bees for a good start, (similar to a swarm) which you don't normally get with a screen cone funnel method unless you wait until the very end.

I still use the screen cone funnel method occasionally, and did quite often when I just wanted to trap the bees and eliminate the colony. I never did a tremendous number of eliminations because it takes time and trips. I left my traps set up year after year and just took two or three starts to increase hive count.

I hope this new method will live up to the stated results you can expect. This would be a giant leap for beekeeping, and I am always looking for new ideas and procedures. In reading posts about the Hogan Trapout Method, lots of people have already improved on the method. Especially in mating the trap to the feral colony. Lets hope this new trap will be a leap forward. I certainly do.

cchoganjr


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## Ben Franklin

I got a queen in my trap out!!


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## Beregondo

Wooo HOOO!


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## Bill91143

I checked my trap that I have on the tree and I got approximately 3 more pounds of bees again tonight, but still no queen, maybe tomorrow!

Wrong picture. This picture is of a trap I just installed on a house. I sure am having problems getting the correct pictures on here. Guess that is what happens when an old man tries to learn new tricks.


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## Bill91143

OK, I think I got the picture of the tree I'm trapping out, now.


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## Harley Craig

Man if I could find a Ferrell colony in a tree with an entrance that low I'd leave the trap on yr around and every yr take a couple of starts and raise a queens from it every yr


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## Bill91143

I would love to leave some bees in the tree, but it's in someone's backyard and they have kids so they want the bees gone. The trap on the house is the same thing, (of course) they want all the bees gone also. What ever bees I can't trap will be exterminated. That is why in both cases I am desperately trying to get the queens.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Bill.. lI would say, this time of year, about 60% chance on the tree, Very, very, low on the house. The Spring buildup is just about over and in two more weeks the queens will really begin to slow down. Then, with lots of room in the feral brood nest, the bees will begin to use the trap as a place to store surplus honey. Still a good way to take a start or two, but chances of getting the queens really diminishes.

I started another one today, same as you, they want them gone. We will see what happens. Hope to get enough for 2 more colonies.

cchoganjr


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## cg3

I started a trapout on a house 3 weeks ago. The owner just noticed them this Spring, but judging by the activity (pollen, orientation, lots of bees), it was fairly well established. I created a new entrance and sealed off the old ones. After a couple days they were using the new entrance so I screwed an 8 frame box with a few drawn combs in it to the wall over my new entrance. A couple more days and they were using the entrance normally with a hundred or so bees hanging out on the comb in the box.
At this point, I added a frame of brood and a wire cone inside the box over the house entrance. Massive confusion. Bees searching for and finding new entrances into the house. Only enough bees in the box to cover the brood. It took a few more days to find and seal the new entrances.
Now, a couple of days later, they've apparently absconded. All activity in and out has ceased and there are even fewer bees on the brood.
Did all my efforts bum them out to the point where they just left?


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## josephus1

Hi. I am sure of the method because I have had the success with it. The slider bar allows you to set the trap from the outside without going into the box if you do not want too. It allows for just taking field bees, Just taking house keepers, Taking both and leaving it from there. Or a few maneuvers with get all the bees even the queen. Step one is engaging the slider to have all access in and out of the tree of all bees coming and going. First by bringing in a brood frame with eggs. Checking in a few hours to see the house keepers over (And Possible queen, but unlikely this soon). If the queen is over that soon (Unlikely) then you can slide the bar to put the queen excluder on the hole. This will make sure the queen will not get back in the tree If the box is too full you will need to take some out on the frame you brought leaving the queen to stay. You will need to replace the brood frame with another. You will also note the date and wait 22 days to insure all eggs and larvae has hatched in the tree. Then you can slide the bar all the way in and close all contact to the tree leaving a route for any field bees to still come out the screen tunnel , but can only return to the box. 
What forces the bees over is that when you get your first house keepers over, Check for queen, but not likely so quick that she will be there, you then slide bar all the way in causing the bees in the box not to be able to go back and forth, Only the field bees will leave out but can only come back in the box in one day you will have more than you need if you just want a starter amount. They are loaded with their honey, pollen etc. and will have to build and pack inside of your box. Three days latter you will have a queen cell and worked cone from the tree bees. Since you will be having to removes bees every so often anyway because of the migrations as this continues, then I take the bees on the brood frame out and replace it with a new brood frame. This time I want all stages of brood and specifically those capped and ready to hatch that day or two away. I still want eggs as well. I leave the tree open for all the bees to re adjust for what they have gone through. Some will go back into the tree, but now there is work already out there "done by them". The queen likes to lay eggs in "fresh cleaned" cells. That is why the capped bees are needed to be there and hatching out. This could be happening within 4 days all together, and this is when she is to come over. Wait about two days and if she is not over close off the tree again and it will get worked again just like the first time. When all the field bees can not take their supply back into the tree they will again treat this as their new hive, will again attempt a queen cell etc. Wait three days(This cause the bees in the tree to suffer some) and you will have an over crowded box, Open it up to the tree again, there will be much more work now done in your box. This is where the queen is likely to come over and even have an extended stay laying eggs. I have not had to go the second round on this so far, she has laid eggs on the first cycle. I hope I explained this good enough. In fact I may add this explanation on ebay auction. Thanks Joseph Rorie.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

josephus1.. Thanks for the info. Sounds promising, and I understand parts of it, but, honestly, not all yet. My questions would be:

Have you attempted to lure the queen over where the entrance to a building/tank is at one point, and the brood nest is several feet away from where the entrance/exit is. ( and for whatever reason you cannot make another entrance, or just don't know where the brood nest is). My experience, which uses uncapped brood to lure the queen, same as yours, is that, she will not travel that far. In this case the bees often start queen cells in the trap from the brood you gave them, or, they use the trap as a storage chamber for excess honey.

I also believe the available room in the brood nest, in the feral colony, will play a major role in whether the queen will come into the trap. If she has ample or surplus cells available in the feral brood nest, the only reason she has for coming into the trap is the smell of foreign eggs. Late in the season she is not looking for more cells, and may be content to stay in the tree, house, tank, etc. My experience indicates that a late season trap out is not as successful in getting the queen to come over as early season/major buildup for honey flow, trapots are. 

My experience has also indicated that if the queen does not come over, the bees in the trap may start to build queen cells in the trap from the unsealed brood you gave them. This is due to eggs/capped brood being in the trap, but, no queen is present.

I have also experienced the nursebees coming over to tend the frame of brood you gave them, then returning to the feral source and abandoning the trap. This necessitated the use of the funnel to prevent them from returning to the tree, house, etc. I attributed this to the bees having adequate room in the feral chamber and not needing/wanting to establish another chamber.

I especially like the part about the queen excluder keeping the queen in the trap without having to open the trap, or, her coming through the funnel. Someone contacted Kelly Bee Company about a year or so ago and had devised a way to slide the queen excluder into the tunnel without having to open the trap. I looked at it and said yes, it would certainly work. I don't know what they have done or are going to do about it.

As I have said before, I did not develop the procedure I have used for years to get the queen, but rather to take starts and leave the feral colony healthy, year after year. Years ago, farmers would let me trap a couple of starts, but, did not want the bees killed. So i took a couple of starts, gave the farmer a little honey, we both had bees, and everyone was happy.

Thanks for the info. Lots of good info here.

cchoganjr

Lots of good info.


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## josephus1

I have not tried it with bees that may be very far from the entrance, however I think it would work still but with much more closing off and opening up. Three days without their field bees (water they pack in when needed) one day open for all then back to three days. Depending on the location, if in a very hot place, then three days once, but two days next. The whole hive begins to like it better on the "nicer" side. The queen can also notice that every thing is going well over there, and I suppose some of her eggs are not so fed after the close off. I notice that she comes over and lays like crazy as if to make up. I can see where she "might not" come over after the first closeout, but I have not had that problem. I would believe that if she did not, then repeating this will do it, and should do it in just a few times. Even is she gets stubborn her whole hive is gradually working more over in the box and another close out she will not want to go through. I also use a full size box with the set up when I am sure it is a very large hive of bees in the tree. I start with putting a spacer wall that closes most of the hive box off and they only have 4 to five frames to work with, but each time I force them over and see them over crowed I can give them more of the box, then start a super. But that time you should have already trapped the queen over and having the exculder in place.
I can also see that they will try to just make it a honey box but with you forcing the field bees to stay over with their pollen also, then that will not happen as long as you keep shutting off the hive making them feel there need to thrive on their own, but the opening time has served me well with the queen acting like she is glad to get out of that side. I do believe that having almost hatching eggs has a lot to do with it since she knows the cycle so well and a fresh clean cell is her target. I see what you mean as far as how much space is in the tree or building, but shutting it off frequently causes it to become uncomfortable as the very least, and I am sure the bees feels the panic during that time.
I also suspect that the 90 degree turn and the circulation trouble from that makes it a lot harder in the tree, and the easy work and comfort in the box right at the entrance/breeze makes some of this work also. After all the fanners must work double time to draw back into the tree. When every thing is going well up front then I see it playing a part in it as well. Joseph Rorie


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Joseph... That sounds good. You may have just made a giant leap forward in beekeeping, in getting queens from trees, buildings, etc. Only time will tell.

Congradulations, Let's see how it works out, as more people use it. 

Obviously you are wanting to make and sell this trap, but, I believe if I were you, I would approach some large bee manufacturing company and sell them the idea, or license them to sell on a royalty basis. Quickly, before the idea is widely used. E-bay is great, but a large bee company will sell a lot more faster, and i'm sure you know others will copy your design for themselves.

I had used my design for years, shared it with many others and I did not want to get into the selling business with the Swarm Harvester that Kelly Bee Company sells, Kelly did, so I gave them the concept and design and I have never accepted anything from them or the hundreds of people that I have helped use the trap. I just enjoy helping beekeepers. I wasn't looking to make money on the idea or the trap itself.

My best wishes to you, and your trap. Looks like you have make a great improvement on what is currently available.

cchoganjr


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## Bill91143

Cleo, so far I have gotten about 7 pounds of bees out of the tree I am trapping. Two times I got about 3 pounds each. This morning after 36 hours I only got about a pound. I'm thinking we may be running out of bees. I still haven't gotten the queen. I closed off the tunnel this morning except for the little funnel. Now I am wondering if I should have done that. I will check the trap again in the morning. If I haven't gotten many bees I may just pull the trap, or if I keep trapping I suppose I need to put in some fresh brood. The frame I put in last week is mostly capped now. 

I pulled bees from the trap on the house today (my first bunch of bees from the house) and I got about 4 pounds. I don't think I got the queen there either, but I didn't check the bees real close as I shook them into a nuc box. I'll check them closer tomorrow, and if she isn't in there I'll put a queen cell in the nuc and let them hatch her out. One good thing about having Russian bees you can always find a queen cell when you need one. Russians seem to always keep a cell ready just in case.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

If you only have one pound after 36 hours, you have severely weakened the hive. 

Yes, I would also close off the tunnel. I have had many people tell me the queen came through the funnel, but, I do not believe I ever have.

I don't have a lot of faith in getting a queen from a house trap until perhaps the very end. And this late in the season it is much more difficult to get the queen to come out. I had a PM tonight that said the trap bees built queen cells in the trap. To me that would indicate the distance was too much, and the bees decided to make themselves a queen and have a 2d colony in the house and trap.

Don't give up.

Have you been reading about the trap that Josephus has designed. Sounds promising. (See posts above).

cchoganjr


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## Ben Franklin

Mr. Hogan: I did a trap out and got the queen to come with the rest of the bees. In a ten frame box 8 frames of bees. And they have eggs and I saw the queen today. They are also building nice comb. BTW this was a swarm just a few days old in a Log, June 3.


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## josephus1

I have been a beekeeper for a little over 35 years. I always gave all my honey away to friends and family. I never thought of making money selling bee products etc. I only recently got in to realizing that I need to sell something just for gas money etc. I ended up selling my last years honey instead of giving it away, then I thought of a few things that I have made for the hives like a spacer that would allow you to just start a nuc in a full size box and having the spacer be a moveable wall allowing the box to increase to them as they grew. That is so easy that even at $3.50 many beekeepers could make their own and the do.
I would like to make something on this and your advice is good to try a big company out. Thanks and hope things work out for every one. Joseph Rorie.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Ben Franklin said:


> I did a trap out and got the queen to come with the rest of the bees.


Ben Franklin.... Were you using the screen cone funnel or some other type. 

Josephus... I also made what i think you are talking about. My device to make a 10 framer into a 3, 4, 5, or any other size nuc (up to 10 frames) hangs on the rabbet and seals off the 10 frame box anywhere you want. I used a normal top bar (just thicker) and cut the board the proper size to seal the ends , the top, and bottom. I will try to post a photo when i return from Georgia on Saturday.

Everyone... I will be in Georgia the rest of the week, and may or may not have internet service. If I can help anyone, just hang on, I will be back on Saturday.

cchoganjr


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## Bill91143

Cleo, yes I have been reading the posts about Joseph's trap I haven't quite grasped the entire concept yet. I will probably have to look at the actual trap to understand it totally. It sounds exciting though.

The bees have just about run out in the tree, and still no queen. I am considering pulling the trap. I hate to give up on her, but I don't know what else to do. I do know as soon as I pull the trap they are going to exterminate the rest of the bees that are left behind.


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## Bill91143

Cleo, I know you may not see this since you are on your trip, but I just wanted to tell you I checked the tree trap and I got close to a pound more of bees, but to my surprise, the queen was in the trap also. She came through the funnel. She is a big black queen. I think I've gotten most of these bees, now. Catching the queen was about as exciting as killing a ten point buck!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Bill91143... Congrats, Close call between big buck and catching a queen in the trap.

Just now leaving for Georgia. If I have internet, I will check back in tonight.

cchoganjr


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## josephus1

Sounds good. Mine is made to move and slide down on top of the frames. It is thin enough to lay on top and be flush with the hive top. I like because you don't need a nuc box at all. It has worked so well that I would not go back to nuc boxes. Have a nice trip in George. I will be going through Georgia Fri.


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## Luterra

Joseph has a few different bells and whistles in the tunnel compared to Cleo, but if I understand it his main queen-capture technique is to reopen the tunnel after closing it (with a one-way exit) for three days, while also placing emerging brood in the trap along with eggs/open brood. That makes sense to me: the queen wants to be where the bees/stores are, but she is reluctant to go through the funnel. Thus closing the tunnel to get more bees and stores in the trap before opening it up to let the queen move ought to work.

I may try that method with my oak tree bees starting today. Yesterday I sealed off a new entrance they had found and added two more frames of brood, giving them a three-frame broodnest in the trap with four more frames for honey storage on the far side. Today I expect to find the brood frames covered in nurse bees. If there is no queen I will close off the tunnel until Friday, forcing the trap to fill with field bees and stores, then reopen it and check for the queen Sat-Sun-Mon. I'm a little concerned that concentrating the field bees in the trap will cause backfilling of the brood cells as we are in a strong flow at the moment.


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## josephus1

My box has no tunnel from the tree to the box. It is flush against the hole held up by the tree board I screw in to the tree leaving the only escape is the hole I have in the tree board, It then has a 1/2 bolt to hang the box on that fits the box so the two holes will be in line with each other. Once you tighten the bolt then it is ready. You only have from their original entrance the board and the box giving only 1 1/2 inch walk way before entering into the box. At that point, they can either go straight to the brood frame and out that hole if they want too, or turn right out the "tunnel" there. Since it is open then they can come and go through both holes. Once you slide the slider to close off the box entrance, then all bees leaving the tree must exit to the right and up the screen only to return to the box outside. I have found that three days of full closure is enough for the first attempt. After three days I open the hole up and allow the bees to adjust for what they want to do. Many will choose to go back in the tree, but this is also proof that many have begun work in the box and stays, The queen has come over and laid eggs the first cycle, but there may be a need to be done again. The tree being closed off makes it uncomfortable and so even if things don't happen the first time, another close out forcing the workers to pack in the box when they return begins the population growth in the box. Thanks


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## Bill91143

The only thing I did different was take an old queen which I was going to replace anyway and put her in a frame size cage that I built and I hung it in the trap next to the tunnel, and this morning the feral queen was hanging on the side of the queen cage. I may have found a good use for this queen since she sure isn't worth anything for laying. I'm going to take her now, and put her in the trap I have on the house. If I get another queen hanging on the side of her cage I will start thinking that maybe I'm on to something.


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## Luterra

I should have looked at the pictures on eBay before commenting - makes much more sense now. I do wonder if the same queen-capture success could be achieved using Cleo's design by closing the tunnel for three days and then opening it again. If I don't have the queen today I'm going to try it...


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## josephus1

When you close off the tunnel does it allow for the field bees to still come out and then return to the box?. It should work.


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## Luterra

I modeled my design on this one:
http://www.tsbeeshoney.com/1/archives/04-2012/1.html

The only difference is that when I close off the tunnel the bees still go directly into the box rather than outside. They just can't get back into the tree. Just checked and no queen today. Closed off the tunnel and will plan on opening it back up on Friday.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

josephus1 said:


> I like because you don't need a nuc box at all. It QUOTE]
> 
> I still use some nuc boxes. They are so much easier to move, when splitting 50 hives and moving to a different yard. But the board makes it nice to not have to move frames from the nuc into a 10 framer for customer pickup.
> 
> Occasionally after placing the splits in 10 frame equipment, if I don't have enough frames to fill the box, the spacer will stop them from dropping comb until I get back.
> 
> cchoganjr


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## Ben Franklin

A trap out from a big tree was not complete, so I was out adding brace wire to the platform the box was on. The tube was not in the box yet, but the bees were coming and going from the box. While I was up in the tree,,over 20 feet, I noticed the bees pouring out of the tube. They were not just coming out, they were running like the house was on fire. I looked around and yeap they wear swarming. My wife was on the ground and she told me the front of the box was covered. Well I new the weight from the box and bees would be too heavy for the platform, and I was adding a cable to support it. The whole thing went boom to the ground, swarm, box and most of the platform. The video shows the box with bees still going in it after I put it back together.

http://youtu.be/CpwKQUvNiBY


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## Bill91143

I went to the trap out at the house to check the trap and see how many bees were in it. I closed the entrance tunnel except for the funnel a couple of days ago. When I lifted the led on the trap it was full of bees. Probably about five pounds. I know it was a good deal more than a three pound package. I think over the last 10 days or so I had trapped most of the bees. Even after I pulled the trap and tunnel off the house very few bees were flying around. When I got the bees to my home I checked through them and there was no queen, but when looking at the bait brood and comb I found that they had made two queen cells. I was shocked to see the cells, but after thinking about it, as the bees pass through the funnel they would have been unable to enter back into the main hive so they would feel queenless, so it's only logical that they would take some of the youngest brood and start to make a queen. From two trap outs (the tree and the house) I have boosted two weak hives and started three nucs. I was able to catch the queen from the tree but not from the house. This has been my first experience at trapping bees and I really had fun doing it. Plus I was really surprised at how easy making and setting up the trap was.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Good job Bill91143. Trapping can be a lot of fun,especially when they become challenging.

cchoganjr


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## Luterra

I got the queen today! I think she came through the funnel, but it's possible she crossed into the trap three days ago before I closed the funnel and I just didn't see her then. My sample size is admittedly only one, but I think I have a method that will work reliably to get the queen. I'll call it the Hogan-Joseph method, from this thread.

1. Build a Hogan trap and mate it to the tree. My trap is a deep with seven drawn frames, though I might use some foundation in the future if all of my drawn comb is in use.
2. Add a frame of eggs/open brood, leaving the tunnel open. Wait one week, checking occasionally for the queen if the trap is not too far from home.
--This gives the bees time to accept the trap and to bring in some nectar/pollen stores, and it allows them to start viewing the trap as a brood chamber.
3. If no queen yet, add a frame of eggs/open brood and a frame of capped/emerging brood, with the emerging brood in the center of the three brood frames. 
4. Close up the tunnel for three days.
--After three days, the trap will contain all of the foragers, a good proportion of the nurse bees, and a complete brood nest with empty cells in the center (from the emerged capped brood) ready for the queen to lay in. The queen will start to feel "left out" and will want to be in the trap.
5. Open the tunnel for one day, then inspect for the queen.
6. If no queen, repeat steps 4 and 5 up to three times, depending on the landowner's patience and my own.

In this instance I found the queen after the second iteration of closing the tunnel for three days.


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## Bill91143

[My trap is a deep with seven drawn frames, though I might use some foundation in the future if all of my drawn comb is in use.]

I just finished two trap outs. One I caught the queen, and one I didn't. I have already used most of my drawn comb so I had some frames of foundation in my traps and they paid no attention to the foundation. Each time I checked my traps I would have bees clinging on my brood and on the drawn comb but they seemed to totally ignore the foundation.


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## bearkarting

Luterra, when you say close up the tunnel. Do you mean close it off so that no bees can enter or exit the tunnel or are you installing a funnel? Also when you close up the tunnel are you using 1/8" hardware cloth / screen or something solid like a piece or wood? 

I have a Hogan trap that has been hanging for 2 weeks today with 7 frames of foundation, tunnel wide open so bees can travel back and forth and the bees haven't built up anything on the foundation. I'm planning on installing a funnel tomorrow evening unless someone has a better suggestion. The goal is to remove as many of the bees as possible as the owner wants them gone.

Background
These bees were a swarm that took over an old hive located in a soffit. They landed on 6/11 and I placed the trap on 6/12.


Thanks and sorry for hijacking the thread

Rodney


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## josephus1

Did you not put a frame of brood in it to begin with? I don't know how the box you have works as far as the tunnel is concerned. If there is a way to hook up the screen funnel and then un set it at will then you are at a better advantage. Look at the box at http://www.ebay.com/itm/130928184013?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649 an see if you can do something similar.


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## josephus1

PS: This box hooks up on the side. You first attach a 3/4 thick board that is about 18 by 9 inches wide that has a hole in it. That board is then worked (sealing etc.) with until only the hole already cut in it is the only way the beers can come and go.That is first put on the tree or building It has a 1/2 bolt that will allow you to hook the hive box to it with its hole aligned in there.


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## Luterra

I modeled my tunnel after this one:
http://www.tsbeeshoney.com/1/post/2012/04/trap-out-at-nolan-corys-house-phase-1.html

The tunnel is closed by a square block of wood that slips into a slot. When it is closed bees must use the funnel on top of the tunnel. When it is open bees can either use the funnel or the large opening. Joseph's design forces the bees outside when the connection to the box is closed. Cleo Hogan's design has the funnel exit directly into the box. We would need a scientific experiment to determine which is more effective.

Foundation doesn't mean much to bees. If they need to draw comb and there happens to be foundation where they want the comb to be, they will follow the stamped pattern and draw good uniform comb. But in general they won't go to where the foundation is. If you can, add in a few frames of drawn comb and at least one frame of brood. The trick to a Hogan-style trap is to convince the bees that the trap is an extension of the hive in need of some attention. The trick (from what I gather so far) to a Joseph-style trapout is to convince the bees that the trap is the primary brood chamber, which is accomplished using added brood frames and a one-way exit for a few days to concentrate most of the bees in the trap before opening it up to let the queen through.


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## Luterra

Bees got very aggressive after I removed the queen. Landowner asked me to exterminate so I reluctantly did this morning before sealing up the entrance to the tree. Next time, if aggression is a concern, I might try leaving the queen in the trap (with the one-way funnel in place of course) until all of the brood has emerged in the tree and entered the trap. Might have to super the trap, but I think that would work.

Full story here:
http://www.luterra.com/blog/?p=615


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## whiskeytripping

I got the 12 page pdf file from Mr Hogan on his trap, but i noticed it didnt have any dimentions of the plans to build it, does it not really matter the sizes? Anyone happen to have the dementions of the size that works best for yall?


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## Gilligan

We built one out of a d Coates style medium nuc.


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## challenger

Older thread but I have a tree hive I looked at today. It is an extremely active hive in a hickory tree about 10' off the ground. I plan to build a trap but I have a couple of questions please.

Removing "starts"? I can simply remove frames of bees yes? I plan on putting in a frame of open brood and eggs and I'll replace with another when I take frames of bees away. Is this proper?
This hive has to be eliminated so is there a way to get the bees to bring the honey from the tree out to the trap? I read something that made it seem like they would but I am not sure if I misunderstood. I plan on closing the tunnel only when I am ready to seal the hole to the hive which will kill the hive. There is only one entrance in this tree about a 3"X4" oval opening.
Any other suggestions?
Thanks


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## GOHoney

I used the Hogan trap last year on a house and a tree. I got the tree queen, did not get the house queen. 



Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> No real difference, but, normally houses are more difficult to seal all entrances. Probability of getting the queen is normally far less in a building due to the entrance(s) nor being near the brood nest. In buildings, bees may enter at a convenient point, then travel several feet, to build their colony between floor joists, or wall studs or rafters.
> 
> Bill, call me and we can discuss.
> 
> cchoganjr


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## challenger

The opening in this tree is large enough so I'm going to use my bee vac first to get what I can. There are so many bees coming and going that I'm concerned it may swarm before I can get a box put on the tunnel. 
Thanks


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## DocBB

Hello beekeepers,

I'd like to build a board based on the Josephus1 Ultra Nuc box, but he seems to have disappeared from the net and the link on ebay do not show any picture.

Do Some of you have build a system like that?


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## DocBB

nobody here?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

DocBB said:


> Hello beekeepers,
> 
> I'd like to build a board based on the Josephus1 Ultra Nuc box, but he seems to have disappeared from the net and the link on ebay do not show any picture. Do Some of you have build a system like that?


DocBB Could you expand on your question. I am not sure what you are asking. 

cchoganjr


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## Kenww

I Have had a trap connected to a busy tree for about ten days. It's a ten frame medium. It has a 3" tray bottom that the tunnel connects too, so it has ten frames in it. About half are drawn. I have a Russian queen from Kelly's that should be here in 3 days. Could I use this queen to draw the queen out of the tree? Maybe they'd kill her even in a cage? I'd like to make two nucs. 

My only hive was a deep nuc installed in two medium boxes with the rest of the frames mediums. I can't get to any brood very easily. Also it's only about six weeks old, and I don't want to weaken it.

I will probably just make up a hive with the new queen and a start from the tree. I just wondered if this might work?

I want the feral genetics. They are very calm and the ferals on this farm are doing great.


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