# small cell and excluders



## joens (Apr 24, 2003)

Are 4.9 queens able to go through a standard queen excluder.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

REGULAR queens sometimes go through queen excluders. Most of us doing small cell don't use excluders much. I use them some when doing regression, but otherwise I don't use them. In fact I never used them much even before I learned about small cell.

So, yes, small cell queens can squeeze through if they really want to. You'll find different excluders have different spacing. If you find one with smaller spacing it will work better with small cell queens.
http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/excludertypes.html 

Take a look at the differences in spacing here. the smallest is on a queen excluder from the 1920's and is 0.163" (4.14mm) and the largest is 0.172" (4.36mm). This is a fairly large range. The smaller range would be fine for small cell.

I just buy standard plastic ones with the rounded edges (not the punched ones) and wood bound metal ones. They work. Just because a queen CAN get through doesn't mean she will.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Other discussions of the same question:
http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/000021.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/000056.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/000101.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/000040.html


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

I was once smoking a hive when I was surprised by a kestrel dropping on a mouse just the other side of the hedge. I watched it fly off with its prey, then realised I was still smoking the hive. The bees must have been pretty well gassed. A few minuted later, I found the queen on top of the excluder. There were eggs below, and none above, so I'd obviously just driven her through the excluder. She came to no harm.

------------------
Regards,

Robert Brenchley

[email protected]
Birmingham UK


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Joens,

Almost any queen can get through an excluder if she wants to.

The size of a queen cell is not controlled by the size of the cell the worker bees are raised in. This had been speculated by some of the first beekeepers trying small cell beekeeping. Various methods were proposed to measure and test this idea. But to my knowledge none were ever implimented. No measurements have been posted. It's still just speculation that has taken on the aura of fact by its being often repeated without question.

And its a curious speculation that crosses much that has been observed by beekeepers and especially queen producers. Nutrition is the primary factor that determines the size of the queen. And this shouldn't be any surprise, as it's nutrition that differentiates a queen being raised instead of a worker bee.

Any factor that impacts nutrition like amount of food stores, the age and number of nurse bees, the age of the larva, colony morale, etc. will affect both the cell and queen size. Queen cells raised by the same bees in the same hive, under the same conditions often vary greatly in size. 

Queen cells taper in width from the wider top to the narrower bottom. The queen pupa can be rocked in the cell. It's not a snug fit and doesn't control the size of the queen.

I have seen hugh queen cells up to 9 inches long! Sometimes a larva can be damaged or for some reason fail to develop at a normal rate. Not receiving the proper clues(probably pheromones) from the larva to terminate feeding and seal the cell, the bees will continue to feed and extend a queen cell to incredible lenghts.

In my own small cell queen rearing I haven't seen any difference in queen size related to worker cell size. So I wouldn't worry about excluder size.

Regards
topbarguy


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