# Capped queen cell in new nuc



## BeeAttitudes (Dec 6, 2014)

Someone more experienced will come along and give you good advice but I would look for eggs or uncapped brood indicating a queen is in your nuc. If there isn't one, I would have a discussion with the folks you bought the nuc from as they should have ensured the queen was laying to sell this as a nuc instead of a package that was just thrown together.

Per your laws, if you find new, open brood or eggs......then tare out the new queen cell.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

i would ask someone more experienced too. 

Make sure the queen cell is closed.. Look for eggs and larvae, if none you may have a problem.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

When did you get the nucs? If less than 8 days ago there was a queen issue before you picked the nuc up. The supplier should not have a problem making it right but then again it doesn't sound like they were when you talked with them. At a minimum they should give you another mated queen. Remember a queen cell isn't capped until it's 8 days old.


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## jbraun (Nov 13, 2013)

If you have a capped queen cell you have a virgin queen on her way. If you look and see drone cells or hatched drones then she can mate. Ask someone in your club if they have flying drones yet. If they came from some where further away from you, your area may not be ready to mate queens. If that is the case you will need to get a laying queen for that nuc. 

I just reread your post and saw that Florida requires mated queens because of Africanised bees. Talk to your supplier and ask for a new queen.


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## gezellig (Jun 11, 2014)

Slo drone gave great info. Call your supplier back since you're not supposed to open mate


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## Bill_B (Aug 21, 2014)

Thanks everyone for the responses.

The queen cell was definitely capped, and I found it about a day and a half after I took possession of the nucs, so it sounds like there was indeed an issue with the nuc before I picked it up.

I will be going back into that hive tomorrow (weather permitting) to get a better look - specifically to look for open brood and/or eggs. If I find some, I'll cut out the cell and see what happens. If I find none, then I'll be going back to the supplier and arguing my case again to try to get another queen.

Thanks again.

Bill


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## Dave1958 (Mar 25, 2013)

Too ways to look at this one is a good nuc should be packed with bees and almost in a swarm condition. That's the sign of a healthy hive. The second issue is the queen cell is capped and the hive may have already reached the tipping point to swarm. Queen may or not still be in box. You need to talk to an experienced keeper that can find the queen and advise you


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

I thought, once a hive decided to swarm it will. If you cut out the cell, won't they just make another, if queen right? And another thing, so, according to your law, you can't raise queens or do any splits, unless you AI?


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

Leave the cell alone and don't go back into the hive for two weeks. The State only requires that the queen mother hive is European. If you bought the hive from a reputable person I can assure you they are using European stock. No one runs AHB on purpose. 

The weather is going to get cold in a couple days. There is absolutely nothing good that can come from you going back into the hive right now. Leave them a lone for now. Check back on them in about 14 days. Keep the feeder full except for Thursday and Friday. Once this cold front passes you can go back to feeding again. Chances are your nuc is trying to super cede. Leave them a lone for the next couple weeks and most likely they will work it out. In about 14-20 days if you don't have a laying queen that would be the time to step in a take some steps to correct the problem. 

Getting a mated queen (if you can even get one this time of year) is really not going to help you out much. By the time you get one and get her introduced your gonna be atleast 7-10 days into it. In no more than two weeks your queen cell will have hatched and hopefully mated. Timing depends on how far a long your cell is since you can't know when it was capped. I know this is not ideal but, at this point I think leaving the cell alone is going to be your best bet.

Marion County is on the Northern boarder for AHB, that just means at one time Marion County did have a confirmed case of AHB, I don't think they are near as pevelant in your area as they are further south. I'm not sure where you got nucs from this time of year but, my guess would be they came from South Florida somewhere and without a doubt have open mated queens. So don't get too hung up on AHB. That's my advice I hope it helps.


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## Bill_B (Aug 21, 2014)

rookie2531 said:


> I thought, once a hive decided to swarm it will. If you cut out the cell, won't they just make another, if queen right? And another thing, so, according to your law, you can't raise queens or do any splits, unless you AI?


My bees aren't on agricultural land, so I have to acquire my queens from elsewhere. As I understand it, apiaries with enough colonies (and enough drones) in agricultural areas can raise queens without running afoul of the best management practices.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

sounds like it already swarmed if it now has half the bees as the others.. was their more than one cell? I brought a nuc home last yr than I knew was choc full of bees let them settle for about 3 days before I checked on them and they had already swarmed.


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## Bill_B (Aug 21, 2014)

johng said:


> Leave the cell alone and don't go back into the hive for two weeks. The State only requires that the queen mother hive is European. If you bought the hive from a reputable person I can assure you they are using European stock. No one runs AHB on purpose.


Sure, I know they're coming from EHB stock. But based on the stuff I read that was put out by the state, it sounds like they're worried about EHB queens mating with AHB drones, especially for bees kept in residential areas. Do you have a citation/reference for the state only requiring the queen be EHB? If that applies to me, then that will make my life a lot easier. :thumbsup:




johng said:


> The weather is going to get cold in a couple days. There is absolutely nothing good that can come from you going back into the hive right now. Leave them a lone for now. Check back on them in about 14 days. Keep the feeder full except for Thursday and Friday. Once this cold front passes you can go back to feeding again. Chances are your nuc is trying to super cede. Leave them a lone for the next couple weeks and most likely they will work it out. In about 14-20 days if you don't have a laying queen that would be the time to step in a take some steps to correct the problem.


We've got a storm coming in soon, and I wanted to get them checked out before it gets here, so I've already opened them up and checked. So, unfortunately it's too late to leave them alone 

As for what I found - the one queen cell (I didn't find any others). A little sealed brood, and no eggs or open brood that I can see. So I believe they've been queenless since before I picked up the nuc. I left the queen cell as is for the time being. I guess I'll see what happens.

Also, I've been feeding them since I installed them this weekend, and while they're building out comb, they're also storing a lot of syrup in/around the brood frames. I know that backfilling the brood nest is often a precursor to swarming, but considering the current condition of the hive, I'm not sure if I should be concerned about it.



johng said:


> Marion County is on the Northern boarder for AHB, that just means at one time Marion County did have a confirmed case of AHB, I don't think they are near as pevelant in your area as they are further south. I'm not sure where you got nucs from this time of year but, my guess would be they came from South Florida somewhere and without a doubt have open mated queens. So don't get too hung up on AHB.


Honestly, I'm not too concerned about the bees - I'm more worried about staying compliant with what the state requires.



johng said:


> That's my advice I hope it helps.


It does, thanks! I appreciate it.


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## Dave1958 (Mar 25, 2013)

eventually we are all going to deal with AHB. their genetics will just be incorporated into the areas. you will just have to eliminate hives that become too hot, and mate replacements earlier in the year. winter will then be the equailizer


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Dave1958 said:


> eventually we are all going to deal with AHB. their genetics will just be incorporated into the areas. you will just have to eliminate hives that become too hot, and mate replacements earlier in the year. winter will then be the equailizer



Or instead of everyone in the north getting southern queens for an early start, southern states will be getting northern queens to replace local one before the colony gets too big and aggressive.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

> As for what I found - the one queen cell (I didn't find any others). A little sealed brood, and no eggs or open brood that I can see. So I believe they've been queenless since before I picked up the nuc. I left the queen cell as is for the time being. I guess I'll see what happens.


Was it a swarm cell or a supercedure cell?


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## Bill_B (Aug 21, 2014)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> Was it a swarm cell or a supercedure cell?


I've heard conflicting things as to how to tell them apart, so I don't know.

It's on the face of the comb pointing downwards, in the middle third horizontally and lower half vertically.


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## gezellig (Jun 11, 2014)

Sounds like Bill B is just trying yi get started correctly and follow the state guidelines. Yes his queen cell may get mated but his point is according to him he can't open mate. So whether he leaves the cell alone or not is irrelevant. He's new at this and trying to follow the rules by having the approved Queen.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Sounds more like an emergency queen cell to me.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I've heard conflicting things as to how to tell them apart, so I don't know.

Swarm cells are numerous in comparison to the number of bees. Swarm cells are different ages (not all the same age e.g. some are eggs, some are larvae, some are white freshly capped, some might even be brown and papery on the mouth). Swarm cells are in hives that are rapidly expanding in population.

Supersedure cells are few. Supersedure cells are all about the same age (e.g. all capped or all uncapped, or a few capped and the rest really large larvae that are about to be capped). Supersedure cells are in hives that are languishing or shrinking.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Bill_B said:


> I've heard conflicting things as to how to tell them apart, so I don't know.
> 
> It's on the face of the comb pointing downwards, in the middle third horizontally and lower half vertically.


As Mr. Bush says, swarm cells are usually numerous. The bees have time to prepare and will build 'cups' that are destined to be queen cells, these are often found at the bottoms of the frames (if there is room).

Supercedure/emergency cells are more often found on the face of the comb/frame because they have not had sufficient time to prepare, and must instead select from whatever eggs/larvae that already occupy regular cells and may be of the proper age to become a queen.

The age of the eggs/larvae is very important. For the first three days after the egg hatches, those larvae destined to become workers and those destined to become queens are fed the same. However, after the third day this changes- the food for regular workers is "downgraded" in quantity and protein content (progressive provisioning) which prevents them from developing into queens, while future queens continue to be fed the higher quality diet for [approximately] an additional 2 1/2 days. Larvae which are more than 3 days old, and which have had their diet downgraded, are not likely to be able to develop into properly functioning queens.

In the case of swarm cells, which are pre-destined to become queens, it is almost guaranteed that they have been properly fed for the appropriate length of time and there is a reasonable assurance that the queen will be of good quality. On the other hand, the quality of a supercedure/emergency queen may be less assured, because it all depends on whether the bees have sensed the problem of the missing/failing queen in time to still have larvae of the appropriate age available. If none of the larvae are 3 or less days old, then the attempt to produce a queen will either produce a queen of poor quality/stunted development or fail completely.


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## Bill_B (Aug 21, 2014)

Thanks Michael Bush and BadBeeKeeper - the difference is clearer now.

From the sounds of it, this is likely a supercedure/emergency cell.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Don't cut that cell. The bees know more than you do.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

dsegrest said:


> Don't cut that cell. The bees know more than you do.


Exactly dsegrest I quit grafting years ago and take advantage of all queen cells. Swarm cells and supercedure cells were a preference of Brother Adams and of mine, queens are long lived better than any store bought queens and first year supercedure is a rare occurrence in my apiaries. I've found a lot of beekeepers that raise queens for income will tell you that swarm cells, supercedure cells, and emergency queen cells are no good but my experience has been that's not the case.


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