# Inbreeding



## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Inbreeding is not inherently bad, nor is it especially common because most breeders do not have closed apiaries and the queens can mate with 20 or more drones. More often, you simply will have feral or neighboring bees intermingling with your drones. A truly closed apiary needs over 25 colonies or a regular introduction of new queens to prevent inbreeding. Hybridizing bees from your two favorite commercial breeders is easy and usually very successful. This requires no active selection process, no closed apiaries and is an easy introduction to queen breeding. The drawback is that the F3 queens are usually worthless.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

I find this interesting and this is my fear. I have been keeping bees for 5 years now and have purchased only 2 queens in that time; the rest were raised by the hives. I worry about cross-breeding because there are no other beekeepers within flying range and feral bees are a thing of the past. My bees are still sweet, passive things, but I think I'm probably due for some trouble. I'm keeping an eye out and will purchase queens if and when I have to.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Tia,
One of the guys in my association loaned a frame of drone comb to another as a way of bringing home more genetics. there's no garantee that the resulting drones will mate with your queen without AI. However, if you don't have ferals, then it should increase the chance and if you do have ferals in the area, perhaps they'll benefit. 

What I did is set my mating nuc out away from my hives. Like the next county over...

Waya


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Great idea, Waya. Thanks.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Tia, inbreeding is actually a good thing if your stock has what you like. Mother daughter line breeding is done all the time by I.I. breeders to help fix desirable genes. Desirable traits often are controlled by several alleles and by line breeding you tend increase the likelihood that these alleles will be passed on. 

Where you can get into trouble with inbreeding is with the sex alleles. This can get very confusing very quickly. Those rare allels travel.

As you know a drone is from an unfertilized egg and a worker is from a fertilized egg so the worker has twice as many chromosomes. Half from the queen , the egg, and half from the drone, the sperm. The queen and the workers have two sex alleles and the drone only has one because he only has half the number of chromosomes. Now every population of bees there are a number of different sex alleles. Think of them as hair color to make it easier. There is black, brown, red, blond, etc. The queen and all workers have two colors in their genetic code. It may be black and brown or black and red etc. In order to be a female you must have two different color alleles. The drone only has black, or brown or red etc.

So in short two different color alleles the workers see a female larva, if there is only one than the larva is a male. What happens if a larva is from a fertilized egg and both of the sex alleles are black? The bees sense a defect in the worker larva and remove the larva. With in line breeding using II you get a 50% brood pattern. This is terrible right? Not if you want to fix desirable genes. 

What is really interesting is that natural selection favors rare sex alleles. As more queens in a yard get more black alleles so do the drones. Drones with black alleles will produce fewer offspring because of the same sex allele color will be duplicated. But the drone with a rare blond sex allele will almost always produce a viable larva because not many queen mothers have this color sex allele. So over time the different type of sex alleles balance throughout the population.

The next information is from Queen Rearing and Bee Breeding by Laidlaw and Page.
Now if you practice true closed breeding on say an island where there really are no other bees. A closed system only need 35 breeders to maintain brood viability for 20 years assuming a generation per year. This number can be reduced to 25 breeders if they are placed with their own daughters or queen supersedure. 

You may think there arent any other bees around but there are. Remember queens fly great distances to mate so finding unique sex alleles with open mating should not be a problem for you. 

Just think of the theory of six degrees of separation. Every person on earth is connected to everyone else by only six associations. Those rare alleles will travel.

[ September 25, 2006, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: magnet-man ]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think you all underestimate how many feral bees there are out there. I doubt you'll have inbreeding problems at all, and if you do it won't be for a few generations.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Generally correct MB, however, I have seen inbreeding depression in my bees in years past. It was a result of having a very limited population with no surviving feral colonies. I used one queen as a breeder and raised enough queens to re-queen all my colonies. The next time I tried to raise queens, they were too closely related and I got lousy results. This is not likely to happen if you have only one or two colonies and if there are other beekeepers or feral colonies nearby.

Fusion


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

What are you calling lousy results? Can you describe in detail what the results were for us?

[ September 26, 2006, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: magnet-man ]


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Brood viability went down to about 60%. The queen was laying heavily but about 1/3 of the eggs disappeared. The colonies did not build up and did not make any honey. I bought a breeder queen and raised new queens which mated with the drones from the colonies I had. That resolved the problem. It was a typical example of too few sex alleles.

There was a range of problems. A couple of colonies were very good producers. Several others made a living and the rest were just surviving. I did not make a crop that year so it was a disaster from my point of view.

Fusion


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

> It was a typical example of too few sex alleles.


Yep, that is what it sounds like.


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## cmq (Aug 12, 2003)

I attempt to keep the breeders in my bee population "closed" by the use of Instrumental Insemination. Inbreeding could become a problem if I didn't obtain new breeder queens yearly and supplement this by the purchase of drone mother queens of known lineage. Thats why I am so persistent in knowing the "tag" number and source of the queens that I obtain. A good assortment of drone mothers and drones of sufficient quality are key in the mating scheme. Its like cooking, once a stray ingerdient is in it cant be taken out only diluted over time.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Wow, Magnet-man! Sorry it took me so long to respond to your great explanation! I've printed it out and placed it in my notebook. Your words are very reassuring that I should have no trouble in the near future. I feel smarter already, thanks to you!


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## Jeffrey Todd (Mar 17, 2006)

Tia,
I was wondering why you say that the feral bees are pretty much a thing of the past? Sure, many may have died off previously due to mites and associated diseases, but besides anecdotal evidence, how do you come to the conclusion that there are none or almost none? 
The reason I ask is that there are lots of wild colonies around here, and I do not live in an area where there are lots of beekeepers, migratory or otherwise. I know there are lots of colonies because I get plenty of calls to come remove them, and they are definitely not Africanized.
Have you put your name out there to do removals or swarm collection? My guess, and it is only a guess based on my own experience, is that you would find there are a lot more ferals than you thought.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

"I know there are lots of colonies because I get plenty of calls to come remove them, and they are definitely not Africanized"

One interesting aspect to this: bees with a primarily A. mellifera var. mellifera genetic background seem more resistant to Africanization than other varieties of Europeans bees, such as Italians. Hybrid bees and fully africanized bees easily outcompete italians/carniolans when it comes to drone mating and queen rearing. This is a perfect example of how inbred bees can be very successful. All AHB in the U.S. are descended from just a handful of ill-tempered scutella queens.


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## Jeffrey Todd (Mar 17, 2006)

OK, I will have to let my ignorance show: could you explain what strain Apis mellifera var. mellifera is? How is that different from regular Italians and Carniolans?

[ October 03, 2006, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: Jeffrey Todd ]


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--I was wondering why you say that the feral bees are pretty much a thing of the past?

This is a misconception, feral bees are abundant. It seems there are viable breeding populations of ferals existing in micro habitats, or what I call feral pockets, so it can be hit or miss for some beekeepers. If your hives are placed in an area not near to these rebounding ferals or too close to poorly bred domestic bees, then you may experience low brood viability and other symptoms associated with poor mating or selection practices. This is ever changing, so as the ferals rebound, it may begin to be reflected in better mating in domestic colonies as time goes on. 

In the years after the varroa crashes in the north east during 95-96 I began to discover several of these feral pockets in my area. All these feral populations that rebounded first seemed to be located in what I would describe as perfect bee habitat. These were areas that had abundant voids, a variety of nutritional forage, and rather distant from the influence of domestic beekeeping genetics. The first areas that seemed to recover were in remote abandon farm lands. But after a few years, I have noticed that the woodland ferals seemed to have made the most impressive recovery, brood viability and over all queen performance is superb in the woodland ferals when compared to other ferals and this is where I am focusing my trapping efforts. 

I have found that I may be located in an area that the ferals have not recovered well because of poor viability and other poor mating symptoms. But simply by bringing in ferals each year from areas where ferals have had many years of intense selective pressure, I have managed to increase my over all brood viability to above 98% in most colonies.

[ October 03, 2006, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

"I was wondering why you say that the feral bees are pretty much a thing of the past? . . .how do you come to the conclusion that there are none or almost none?. . .Have you put your name out there to do removals or swarm collection?" Jeff, mosquito spraying by the county where I live is rampant. . .to the point where they drive the trucks right up onto people's properties and spray all the way to the back line! I have "no spray" signs posted, and both the county and state have me registered as a beekeepeer, so the mosquito trucks stay away otherwise there'd be absolutely no honeybees in this area! In an effort to get some bees and new beekeepers in Carteret County where I live, I started a new chapter of the state association and I am #1 on the list at the extension office to receive swarm and/or removal calls. Despite this fact, I received only two swarm calls this past spring and both swarms were pathetically small. . .one about the size of a baseball and the other about the size of a football. I did collect them, killed the queens and combined them with one of my hives. I got a call this fall to remove a colony from a chimney, but by the time I got there (the next day) the owner had killed them. . .they were yjs! Trust me, there are no honeybees in this area. I wish I were wrong, but I don't think so.


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## balhanapi (Aug 22, 2006)

Hi Tia, why would you kill those queens if you want diversity in your breeding population? Just curious..


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## Jeffrey Todd (Mar 17, 2006)

Wow, Tia, that is really something. I am surprised that they spray to that extent. 
Carteret County, huh? I used to live in Onslow County, when my dad was stationed at Camp Lejeune. NC holds many good memories for me, especially since I was just a kid back then. Since becoming a beekeeper, I have always thought NC would be a great place to have bees. 
As a last ditch effort to be really sure the bees haven't somehow made it, I wonder if the pest control companies would be better contacts for swarm removal, simply because most people regard bees as pests (at least when they are nesting in or around their homes) and may be more likely to contact an exterminator than they would the extension agent.
I just hate the thought of little or no wild bees in that beautiful state you live in.

[ October 03, 2006, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: Jeffrey Todd ]


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Apis Mellifera Mellifera is the basic black group of races ranging from North Africa throughout much of Europe. They are characterized by very rapid spring buildup, very strong swarming inclination, collecting huge amounts of pollen, selectively collecting dark colored honeys, irritable nature, and high susceptibility to brood diseases.

The first bees brought to the U.S. were Mellifera. These bees are still represented in feral populations throughout the eastern U.S. though they were decimated by Varroa.

If you think Carniolans have a rapid spring buildup, you have never tried the Mellifera's. I've seen a cup of bees with a queen build up into the strongest colony in a yard and produce the largest honey crop.

Fusion


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## Jeffrey Todd (Mar 17, 2006)

Okay, Aspera, I did my homework and read about A. mellifera mellifera and A. mellifera ligustica and others. 
Now a new question comes to mind: Why do we not see more Africanized bees here in Central Texas whereas in Central and South America, the Africanized bees domniate? 
Is it a climate that is not so well-suited to the tropical Africans? More competition from native bees (A. mellifera mellifera or otherwise)? Not enough time has passed for the Africans to spread fully? Some combination of the above? 
The bees that I have taken from the wild this year (10 colonies/swarms) were all of gentle to average temperment, they have all had between 20-80 pounds of harvestable honey, which is as good as most of the managed bees around here have done, what with the drought and all. Most of the wild bees are "leather-colored" (not a description I particularly like as leather can vary) in that they are not golden, but have very distinct bands with a muted gold color. Individuals bees may vary to almost black in color, so I can only guess that they are "mutts", and apparently pretty good ones. 
Sorry if this is a bit fragmented.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

There has not been enough time and there currently is introduction of EHB genes because of requeening. 

I believe the spread of pure AHB could be stopped. It would require everyone to use marked queens and requeened any hive without a marked queen with a marked queen of known EHB genetic lineage. There would still be hybrid feral bees but I think they would stay hybrids. 

Requeening like this would be very difficult and expensive for commercial beekeepers; therefore it is not practical. You would also lose any natural selection for varroa resistance.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Although I've definitely disparaged them at times, I do have to give the Weavers a tremendous amount of credit for acting as a major bulwark against the rapid introgression of AHB. I don't about where you live Jeff, but I've also heard that some parts of Texas get enough rain to discourage the AHBs. Still, its probably not a matter of if but rather when...
As for mellifera, I have never used them, but they are usually describe as swarmy, nervous on the comb, good on heather crops and have a strong propensity to sting. I think that the Italians largely replaced them because the Italians didn't get chalkbrood as much. PA supposedly still has small pockets of these girls which have survived or avoided varroa(descended from German and English stocks).


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Jeffrey, we're way ahead of you. Our county chapter has been in touch with all the exterminators in our county and have asked them to call us if they get requests for bee removal! They're only too happy to oblige.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

-- why would you kill those queens if you want diversity in your breeding population? Just curious..

I prefer my queens from swarms that I collect be from swarms that occurred before the solstice June 21, and Ill explain why.

Swarming is a natural impulse that is good for the colony. It serves the purpose of propagating the genetics of a successful colony that is able to throw a prime swarm capable of surviving.

But as a beekeeper, I want honeybee genetics that are not swarmy. A colony that swarms in the spring and has the urge satisfied throughout the rest of the season would be more likely to throw a single prime swarm OR two before the summer solstice, and then have the swarming urge satisfied for the reminder of the season. Swarmy types would be more prone to throw many small swarms all throughout the season. 

Also, late swarm swarms are costly and risky for the beekeeper because they tie up equipment with untested genetics that could be used else ware, and you are accepting a long term relationship with genetic that you may not be able to thoroughly assess until well into the next season. Whereas a spring swarm would allow about 18 weeks of assessment before committing to wintering the colony or not. 

As a breeder interested in improving my stock, I prefer to have the 18 weeks of assessment, and eliminate any genetics that do not perform before they produce drones in the following season, so this is why I am not too fond of late swarms.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

I knew someone would ask, Joe. In both cases, it was a judgment call. The fact that they swarmed was an indication that the queens were old. The swarms themselves were meager. And when I compared the swarm queens side-by-side with the queen in the hive, they didn't hold a candle to the size or vigor of the reigning queen. So. . .as much as I hate to do it. . .off with their heads.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--I knew someone would ask, Joe. In both cases, it was a judgment call.

Actually, Im not the one that asked. I was answering because you did not answer the question posed earlier, hence I said what I would do in this case and why. 

--The fact that they swarmed was an indication that the queens were old. 

This is not always the rule, a queens found in swarms can be of any age, even a virgin less than a week old. Judge a queen by its performance, not the fact that they swarmed. 

--The swarms themselves were meager. And when I compared the swarm queens side-by-side with the queen in the hive, they didn't hold a candle to the size or vigor of the reigning queen. So. . .as much as I hate to do it. . .off with their heads.

This is common with after swarms containing virgins to be small in size. Also, virgin queens will always look small and runty next to a laying queen. 

Im not objecting to the call you made in killing the queens (being so late in the season). Its just that I would have done it for different reasons. In either event, the queens are dead.


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## Jeffrey Todd (Mar 17, 2006)

Thanks, Tia. It is very interesting that your area appears to be almost devoid of wild bees. Sad, and troubling, but interesting. Is the general consensus that it is the spraying killing all the wild bees, or a combination of that and other factors? Wonder how that spraying affects other insect populations.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--Is the general consensus that it is the spraying killing all the wild bees, or a combination of that and other factors? 

It is possible that pesticide is affecting recovery, but I might suspect that Tia is in an area where the ferals have not made a full recovery as of yet due to enviornmential factors. If the area is lacking in what is required for bee habitat such as abundant voids or nesting places and a variety of nutritional forage, ferals will not recover as fast. 

For ferals to recover it is required that natural selection play a role in eliminating susceptible genetics. If Tia is in an area where domestic beekeeping is prominent (where susceptible stock is often used), then these unfit genetics will serve to hinder feral recovery somewhat. 

Tia, mentioned only having two swarm calls and the swarms were small

It is extremely difficult to make an assessment of the feral population based on swarm calls. I estimate only a small number of swarms that are cast are spotted and reported by people. Your probably talking numbers as low as 5% are actually spotted and reported. 

I get first referrals from a pesticide company covering over 3 counties. This year I received about 10 swarm calls and about 15 removal calls. Now I would suspect that even though I am working with one of the largest pesticide control companies in the area. This number may represent less than 5% of the total population.

[ October 06, 2006, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Wild bees have been on a steady decline for 50 years. AFB. Spraying. Loss of habitat. Tracheal mites. Viruses. Varroa mites. Small hive beetle...


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--Wild bees have been on a steady decline for 50 years. AFB. Spraying. Loss of habitat. Tracheal mites. Viruses. Varroa mites. Small hive beetle...

I would also hesitate to describe the varroa crashes of the 90's as a steady decline.









Im seeing a resurgence in ferals in the past 10 years, not a decline.

Also, Studies have shown that feral colonies are relatively free of AFB when compared to domestic. As this abstract from a New Zealand suggests.
http://www.rsnz.org/publish/nzjz/1994/26.php

Resistance to Tracheal, Varroa is well developed in the feral population being of small cell size and under intense selection pressure. And hive beetles as we all know are controlled well in strong colonies, so I dont see HB TM or Varroa affecting a healthy population of feral colonies much as of late.

Viruses, I havent seen any serious symptoms of virus in the ferals, they seem to be developing resistance to that also.

Spraying no doubt is an on going problem.

Loss of habitat is a difficult one to assess. On one hand, the encroachment of housing in bee habitat takes from the forage, but seems to add an abundance of voids as indicated by many swarm calls I get to new housing plans. Loss of habitat might be bad for the beekeepers pocketbook but I would think the ferals would manage just fine.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

"Is the general consensus that it is the spraying killing all the wild bees, or a combination of that and other factors?" I'm no expert so I'm not sure, but I'm pretty confident that there are other factors in play as well. . .such as varroa. "Wonder how that spraying affects other insect populations." Where the spraying takes place, I'm sure it's not good, but what with my 5 acres protected, I have lots of beneficials including ladybugs, mantids and the like. And they seem to increase every year! Maybe they're moving here from the more hostile environments out there in insecticide land!

". . .might suspect that Tia is in an area where the ferals have not made a full recovery as of yet due to enviornmential factors. If the area is lacking in what is required for bee habitat such as abundant voids or nesting places and a variety of nutritional forage, ferals will not recover as fast." I live in an area called "the original Down East." We are teeming with "abundant voids" and "nesting places." Foraging is plentiful and diverse as well since we have lots of woodland, marshland and homesteads with bee-friendly landscaping. 
"If Tia is in an area where domestic beekeeping is prominent" I am the only beekeeper for 15 miles. We're spread pretty thin out here. I'm confident that the only bees my bees ever see are from my seven hives and, if I'm lucky, ferals that might be out there.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--"Is the general consensus that it is the spraying killing all the wild bees, or a combination of that and other factors?" I'm no expert so I'm not sure, but I'm pretty confident that there are other factors in play as well. . .such as varroa. --(Tia)

I have trouble with the part spraying killing all the wild bees.
But spraying is certainly a factor affecting some of the feral bee population as well as the domestics.

As far as varroa in the feral population being harmed by varroa, this is where I get my varroa resistant stock. In my experience here, varroa is not a factor with ferals except that thru natural selection ferals are now more resistant to varroa than the domestics.

But in all reality, I would not expect spaying and killing of bees not to discriminate against affecting your bees. So you likely see evidence of this in your colonies if spraying were a severe problem being that honeybees forage over several square miles. 

--live in an area called "the original Down East." We are teeming with "abundant voids" and "nesting places." Foraging is plentiful and diverse as well since we have lots of woodland, marshland and homesteads with bee-friendly landscaping. --(Tia)

OK, looking at this again from a real world perspective If you are in an area of such isolation and full of woodlands and marshes, why would you expect to get more than a only a few swarm call per season? For instance, I dont get any swarm calls to the woodlands, I get ALL my calls to the rural areas, but I have the highest success rate near and in the woodlands as far as trapping swarms goes. So what appears to be lack of ferals by relatively low swarm referrals may be in all actuality a symptom that suggests there are not that many eyes (people) there to see the swarms. 

I can only recall a single swarm call that was not found within 100 feet of an occupied structure. I can recall more swarm calls happening on a Saturday, and about 80% of those swarm calls being discovered by children with panicked stricken mothers.. 

Does this mean that swarms only happen within 100 feet of structures, on Saturdays and only then in front of children that have mothers prone to panic attacks?







Of course not. 

Remember the old adage? 

If a bee tree falls in the woods and there is nobody around to hear it, were there really bees in that tree?









If a feral colony throws a swarm in the woods and there is no one there to see it, did the swarm really happen?









--",,, with my 5 acres protected, I have lots of beneficials including ladybugs, mantids and the like. And they seem to increase every year! Maybe they're moving here from the more hostile environments out there in insecticide land!--(Tia)

Thats Great! I have 12 acres of my own protected area. 
But remember that a forager traveling at about 10 miles per hour equals about 800 feet per minute, which most foragers will have flown off your property in about 30 seconds.

Best Wishes,


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