# Melissa's questions



## JRG13

don't move them too early, move them when they start brooding and have a good population and the weather will stay warm. You need to monitor for mites as well.


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## MelissaWilkie

JRG13 said:


> don't move them too early, move them when they start brooding and have a good population and the weather will stay warm. You need to monitor for mites as well.


Mites are part of the reason I'm moving to letting them build their own comb. If I'm not going to treat with chemicals do I need to monitor? What if I just doused them with powdered sugar in the early summer?


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## snl

MelissaWilkie said:


> Mites are part of the reason I'm moving to letting them build their own comb.


Hi Melissa,
Natural comb will not preclude mites. Everyone has them, it is just how the bees handle them that separates treatment folks from the TF folks. You need to monitor your mite levels and if they get too high...... 

It's a learning experience. Grab a mentor to guide you and check back here regularly ...


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## MelissaWilkie

I've had a mentor. He treats with chemicals regularly. So I'll check mite levels. Not sure what I'll do with the information,but I'll collect it!


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## JWChesnut

Melissa, 
Two things jump out to me:
1) you need to do some post-mortem on your deadouts
2) you need to change your feeding strategy for the nucs

My suggestion is read Randy Oliver's page on Guanine deposits from mites on old comb. (about halfway down this page)
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/first-year-care-for-your-nuc/
The really friendly blog "honeybeesuite" has an illustrated series on assessing guanine 
http://www.honeybeesuite.com/what-is-guanine/


Putting a pile of sugar at the entrance to a nuc is inviting a robbing frenzy as soon as a strong colony discovers the "free food". The colonies will come out to forage on some warm days of the Portland winter, and will be all over the sugar as soon as the Alders shed pollen.

This late in your winter I would feed inside the nuc with "mountaincamp", but on Randy's first year page cited above, look at the simple mason jar feeder. The nuc is likely to be protein starved, and supplementing with a protein source when the red alders bloom in your area is a good way to get them to build for the spring. Bee growth follows a logistic curve, and a small population will struggle.

The post-mortem will tell you if your hive went dead out from "parasitic mite syndrome" -- the catch-all term to describe multi-factorial decline subsequent to mite explosions. You need to know that. An apiary environment, managment decisions and lineages that are mite susceptible will continue to exterminate hives in short order.


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## mathesonequip

powdered sugar is not an effective mite treatment. it does kill a few but not enough to make a lot of difference. you really should monitor. you can never kill all the mites, the trick is to manage to maintain a low mite level.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Its pretty clear that dusting with powdered sugar is an effective way to dislodge varroa mites from emerged bees. For confirmation of that, see this page by Randy Oliver:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/pow...weet-and-safe-but-does-it-really-work-part-3/

However, even though sugar dusting does reduce mite levels, the question remains as to what frequency of dusting is necessary to keep mites within a tolerable level in the hive, AND, how willing the beekeeper is to devote the necessary _time _to do _frequent enough _dustings.



And in a nod to _Barry_, and the unique rules for _this _forum, note that under those TF forum rules, sugar dusting for mite control is considered a _treatment_.


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## JRG13

You monitor for mites, so when your colonies suddenly diminish in fall and end up as a dead outs, you don't start blaming everything else.... So many TF noobs come in wanting to know why their colonies died out and blame GMO's, pesticides, SHB, wax moth's etc... and you ask them about their mite counts and you get the same answer you gave.... why do I care, I'm treatment free. Well, now you know why you want to know, so when your suddenly healthy hives are empty come October and you have mite numbers in front of you and all symptoms point to high mite counts which you can now confirm since you monitored, that it was mites and not all that other nonsense.


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## Charlie B

Well said JRG13!


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## Rusty67

JRG13 said:


> You monitor for mites, so when your colonies suddenly diminish in fall and end up as a dead outs, you don't start blaming everything else...


Amen.


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## dsegrest

If you are not going to treat, you don't really need to monitor. Just clean your hives up well before you put your new bees in in the spring.


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## Brandy

dsegrest, priceless!


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## squarepeg

melissa, i see that you have recently joined the forum so, welcome!

i read through your original post a couple of times and to honest i had a little trouble following it.

it appears that you are a new to beekeeping, want to be treatment free, and aren't sure about the status of your hives or how to proceed.

you did post your questions in the appropriate sub-forum - 'treatment free beekeeping'. it appears however that you received replies mostly from those who do treat and are apparently getting frustrated with first year beekeepers who try treatment free, lose their hives, aren't sure why, who then go on to blame.....?

beesource is usually a pretty friendly place and folks are typically generous with their experience and knowledge here. this sub-forum is set up for specifically for asking the kind of questions you asked and the expectation is that there can be a reasonable discussion regarding those questions. i regret that your thread took the turns that it did.

regarding your bees, it's tough to give any specific feedback so i'll just say there's not much that can be done at this time of year other than to provide emergency feed should they run low on stores. don't worry too much about making mistakes in the beginning, everyone here had to learn the same way you are and it's not easy, but it's not difficult either if you stick with it. i think you should be proud of yourself for having gotten this far already.

i happen to agree with the other posters here that you should learn how to monitor for and recognize the various pests and diseases including mites, but even more important than that is getting a handle on good basic beekeeping. there are a lot of good resources out there and winter is a good time for doing your homework. here are two good places to start:

http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/

if there is no one else keeping bees without treatments around you i think it's going to be more difficult for you as a beginner to do it. find them if you can but don't be afraid to work with any experienced beekeepers that will let you, there's usually some handy tidbit you can learn from most of them. 

best of luck and hang in there.


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## JRG13

Don't get me wrong square, I may have sounded blunt but I was giving the best advice possible. I was just saying, if you want to be a good beekeeper, monitor for pests, if you want to hope for the best and not treat go ahead but how many new TF beeks come in here after the first season losing hives and start blaming CCD, Neonics, GMO's, round up etc... and not looking the facts in the face and realizing it was mites.


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## squarepeg

JRG13 said:


> Don't get me wrogt square, I may have sounded blunt but I was giving the best advice possible. I was just saying, if you want to be a good beekeeper, monitor for pests, if you want to hope for the best and not treat go ahead but how many new TF beeks come in here after the first season losing hives and start blaming CCD, Neonics, GMO's, round up etc... and not looking the facts in the face and realizing it was mites.


no worries jrg. i roll my eyes too when i hear those excuses. i don't think melissa was doing that though and somehow ended up catching some flack that she didn't deserve. i hope she'll return to the forum and let us help her get it figured out.


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## MelissaWilkie

Thank you!
We checked for mites last year, 2013. I didn't write down what we found, better journal keeping is on my list.
As I recall we were right on the edge of needing to do something, so we powdered all of the hives. 
I'll do a better job of checking for mites at least as I get going.


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## squarepeg

MelissaWilkie said:


> Thank you!
> We checked for mites last year, 2013. I didn't write down what we found, better journal keeping is on my list.
> As I recall we were right on the edge of needing to do something, so we powdered all of the hives.
> I'll do a better job of checking for mites at least as I get going.


:thumbsup:


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## MelissaWilkie

First you all are most awesome, thank you for your support. I really appreciate a) the feedback and b) I am grateful for the monitors. 


Let me say a couple things first about my bees and my experience. My husband and I have had bees for 5 or 6 years. However, he was the primary bee keeper. Since he has become fed up with the learning process, aka hives dieing, I have taken over. I feel like if I have to treat with chemicals, I too will probably quit. But I still feel like I could make this work. A couple years ago my husband and I went to the Washington State Beekeepers conference. The first day was dedicated to presenting research and seemed pretty focused on the chemical treatment side of beekeeping. The second day the speaker was Michael Bush. That was when we decided to transition to TF beekeeping. 

So let me say that we did check for mites last year, 2013 I think. Don't ask me what the numbers were, o I didn't write it down (a thousand lashes with a wet noodle, I'll get better at record keeping). They weren't 0, and they weren't really high. We doused the hives with sugar once and didn't check or treat again. In the future I will check for mites. JRW13 made a really good point, thanks.

So. Current news:
I have a type of guard on the front of the hives that my husband built that prevents robbing. So I don't have trouble feeding the nucs on the front as the robbers can't get in there. I had not considered protein, but I will make sure and get on that.

All 4 hives are still alive. 

I PM'd (post-mortemed) the hive referred to in my first post, 1c. The following is what I found:
- As expected the honey was all robbed out
- There was a very little evidence of wax moths
- The brood had been split between the boxes
- 95% of the brood had hatched out
- of the brood left, I found one emerging, the rest capped
- of the brood left, there was no smell, and they were not "snotty". 
- This was similar to the PM of the hive referred to in 1b

So, I could use feedback on my post-mortem. Is there anything I should have reported that I didn't? 

Also, as luck might have it, I went back through my pictures and found this one of the hive referred to in 1c. The first picture is of the frame, the 2nd is a close up of the same frame. I took these just for the fun of it, but I have wondered if one might use this as a method for screening for mites.


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## squarepeg

very good to hear that all four are still alive!

it may be hard to figure out exactly why 1c died, but here are some clues that it may have been mites:

1. look at the picture linked below, the white stuff in the brood cells is called guanine or mite frass, it is actually the feces excreted by the mites. see if you have that in the brood combs.

http://s300.photobucket.com/user/He...28-1211142051-2022377758_zps484fa652.jpg.html

2. uncap some of the left over brood and pull the larvae/pupae out with a tweezers. look for shriveled up wings, stunted abdomens, and other deformities. finding these is an indicator of infections by viruses that are vectored by mites to the developing brood.

nosema and tracheal mites are other pathogens that can cause a colony to collapse, but you have to send samples of dead bees to a lab to know if they were the cause.


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## JRG13

Just an FYI, I'm all for treatment free, but I also live in a unique environment for bees that's not very condusive for it.... Poor flows, and lots of migratory bees, you can deduce the rest from there. I'm quick to blow on the "it was mites" whistle, but only because I've had two years of watching mites take down hives in fall, so I know what it looks like and what the underlying symptoms are. Bees handle the mites in different ways, some do fine by shrinking clusters come summer and fall but that strategy needs to fit your goals as a beekeeper. Watching strong hives collapse to 2-3 frames of bees in September/October is not something you want to see when you're trying to expand your apiary or thinking of doing almond pollinations, the bees survive our mild winters here doing that, but it also leads to a lot of absconding due to the ensuing robbing pressure and small clusters of bees that overwinter that take the next full year just to build back up to a decent strength hive. Small cell has proven worthless, brood breaks fall in the same category. Natural comb leads to drone comb up the yin yang.... not worth my time.


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## squarepeg

JRG13 said:


> Just an FYI, I'm all for treatment free, but I also live in a unique environment for bees that's not very condusive for it.... Poor flows, and lots of migratory bees......


point well taken jrg. i'm not sure i would even attempt it, or even keep bees at all, under those conditions. like you i am of the opinion that tf may not be possible everywhere.

something tells me vancouver (as well as many other locations) may be a little more 'bee friendly'.

my next suggestion to melissa was to try finding other beekeepers in her area who might already be having success with tf.

melissa, michael bush is in contact with tf beekeepers all over the place. you may want to send him a personal message and see if he knows someone in your area.


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## MelissaWilkie

I don't recall seeing the guanine. Good information.
And the hive I just PM'd the larvae was too old and rotten to tell. The first hive that I PM'd, I pulled some out, I was looking for snotty kind of larvae, I didn't really look for the deformities you listed.

Thanks for the help.


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## squarepeg

you are welcome, good luck with your bees.

you may have noticed that there is a little tension on the forum between those who treat and those who do not (or are attempting to not). it's been going on a long time, so don't take it personally. it just so happens that i have been able to get along pretty good so far without treating, but i do not have any philosophical objection to using them if i start having losses that become unsustainable. so i don't place myself strictly in one camp or the other and actually i find the idea of being in a camp somewhat silly, which makes me kind of a misfit or a square peg.


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## MelissaWilkie

I am probably more like that too. That tension was apparent at the conference we went to as well. Most of the folks who did not treat packed up and went home after the first day! Oh well. If I can get through this and manage to keep some bees alive, I'll be happy. 

How many hives do you keep?


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## squarepeg

you'll be fine. it's good that you are doing your homework.

i have equipment for 21, but currently have bees in 18 all in single deep 10 frame langs with a super or two each.

i also have 18 empty five frame nuc boxes that will used for making new colonies next spring. some of those i will keep and others will get sold.


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## JRG13

I think it's just the rigid approach to single philosophies people feel they need to undertake for whatever reason. Honestly, I don't know why people feel they need to distinguish themselves as treatment free or not. I don't think anyone treats because they like to, but with bee health, genetics, and locational differences of beekeeping, it's not as straightforward as some people claim it is over and over and over. I'd like to be treatment free, but I have to face facts, I'm also trying to grow my apiary here and it doesn't go hand in hand in watching 50-90% of my bees collapse to mites come fall.


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## mike bispham

Melissa, I'm in the UK, but some things are the same wherever you are.

First, your bees now: no-one has mentioned candy. I have fondant on all my hives, even those that don't need it. I look at them monthly, categorise them light/medium/heavy, and watch the lights more carefully. Your smaller ones may well have been robbed late, they may be being robbed on mild days now; and some may have used up most of their stores on brood rearing to get them through the winter. Don't have them starve. 

In the longer term; try to keep more hives. If you have more than you need it doesn't matter when some die - if you even let things go that far. When a hive is obviously suffering from a heavy mite infection you can treat and requeen - or just requeen if you prefer. 

Try to bring in mite-managing genetics - bought vhs - from a reputable breeding outfit - or feral survivors. 

Try to keep your hives away from large treating operations. Their drones will constantly suppress your bees' mite-managing capabilities in the long term.

I too use free-formed foundation, and wellcome the higher drone populations in those that thrive. I think its an important mechanism in the health-seeking population.

I don't look for mites. I look for strong productive hives, and make more from them. Next year I'll probably start requeening the weakest too. 

Try to have a well-formed big picture, and think about details second, and only in the framework provided by the big picture. That big picture will be dominated by a sound understanding of natural selection and traditional (breeding) husbandry. 

Understand that some can't see the wood for the trees - focus on detail when the problem is in the system design. Some that have tried and failed appear to want everyone else to understand that they will surely fail too. Its not so.

If you are surrounded by treaters you will probably struggle to remain tf unless you import vhs queens.

Back to the top points: get candy onto hives (and make sure they can reach it easily) and make some more nucs this spring and prepare to fill them. Try to come up with an increase solution that doesn't impact the mother hive too hard, but makes viable strong colonies by August. With bees in hand you can learn more as you go along.

Good luck,

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham

JRG13 said:


> I think it's just the rigid approach to single philosophies people feel they need to undertake for whatever reason. Honestly, I don't know why people feel they need to distinguish themselves as treatment free or not.


JRG,

This forum was set up specifically to discuss methods of going tf. The sticky specifically states we don't have to justify our positions, and that challenges to the possibility of doing so are off-limits. 

That's the philosophy of the forum. 



JRG13 said:


> I don't think anyone treats because they like to, but with bee health, genetics, and locational differences of beekeeping, it's not as straightforward as some people claim it is over and over and over.


I keep hearing this, but it doesn't match up with what I read here by a long chalk. Most of us understand that it can be hard, and under some circumstances probably impossible to sustain a locally bred population. 

Most hives are treated because its much more profitable to run a commercial outfit that way. Period. I guess some don't 'like' to do it, but they put a peg on their noses and go ahead to provide for their families. I imagine many don't give it a second thought, and plenty seem to be under the impression that they're doing the only right thing, and playing their part in feeding the planet.

All of which is pretty off topic.



JRG13 said:


> I'd like to be treatment free, but I have to face facts, I'm also trying to grow my apiary here and it doesn't go hand in hand in watching 50-90% of my bees collapse to mites come fall.


Do you have really good plan for moving toward tf/ Would you like to let us see it and offer comments and advice? Or have you given up on that idea?

Mike (UK)


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## MelissaWilkie

Hi Mike, Thanks for all the feedback.
I've found a recipe for bee fondant that I'm going to use. Someone else also advised me that I need to add protein, especially for the nucs, I'll give it to all 4.
I believe I am probably more than 4 or 5 miles in any direction from other bee keepers.
And I am preparing to catch swarms this spring. There is a lot of logging around here, and I've got some leads out to collect in the log yards. I also have a neighbor who has had a hive in a tree for the past 5+ years, so I'm going to put a swarm catcher over there.
I'm going to try to convert to just referral bees. However if I need to I know where to get a queen or nuc if I need to.

Again, thanks for your time and advice.


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## mike bispham

MelissaWilkie said:


> I've found a recipe for bee fondant that I'm going to use. Someone else also advised me that I need to add protein, especially for the nucs, I'll give it to all 4.


Hi Melissa,

I may be off-beam here, but until I heard from someone I trusted I wouldn't go mixing protein in with sugar. Pure sugar is known to work ok. (Buying baker's fondant is easier than trying to make it on a small scale btw) If you offer pollen patties I guess they can take it or leave it. But I'd suggest you keep your offerings separate untill you get a good all clear.

(My local branch of mann-lake offer all sorts of expensive concoctions - I'm assuming they're all bull until I see some proper long-term scientific studies that say otherwise!) 

I'd be interested to know what others here offer by way of winter feed. (We've only just stopped seeing pollen going in - its been an exceptionally mild autumn - and hazel catkins are about to come on - and their still flying on warmer days.) So I'm not bothered about protein right now. 

Make sure your clusters can reach the candy easily. The colder it gets the less inclined they are to go exploring. You want it right over them. And watch it if its sloppy - a bit of warmth and moisture and it can ooze out faster than they consume it.

I'm no expert at this btw - you may already know more about winter feeding than me. Certainly others here do.

One last thing: I've been slipping a couple of shims under my covers as the cold comes on, to allow ventilation. I'd be interested to know what others think about that.

Mike (UK)


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## MelissaWilkie

Well shoot, I just bought pollen substitute to mix in with the fondant. Maybe I'll make two batches one with and one without.
It's been crazy warm here too. We've had freezing temperatures, followed by a week of balmy warm, no rain days where the bees are out flying a lot.
Good reminder, I have 2 hives in 5 frame nucs, so I think I'll give them a little extra ventilaton as well. And I have them under a roof, so they don't get direct rain.

Thanks, Melissa


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## JWChesnut

There is no worldwide correct answer to pollen supplementation. 

Nurse bees have a tremendous need for protein. It is the nurse bees that consume protein (bee bread, sub, dead larvae) and not the larvae directly. The nurse bees metabolize the protein into royal jelly.

Winter bees have enormous protein and lipid requirements (to help them live for extended periods and survive the cold). The transition from winter to spring build up require mature adult bees to "regress" and reinitiate glandular production. Bees have the ability to change occupational caste in this respect.

Bees have very fine filter structures in their crop (and between their crop and their abdomen/intestine). These structures allow them to ingest or to store pollen at will.

The risk or early protein supplement is that it encourages brood rearing. Brood rearing uses more resources than resting in cluster. The bees may (and do) starve in early spring --- pushed to activity and metabolic demands the forage won't support.

Commercial Almond colonies are fed sub in December so the colonies make "grade" on the first week of February. A non-Almond hive can be more relaxed in its calendar (and avoid the risk of starvation when the rain settles in March for a good two week soaker).

So here's my West Coast take on sub. Feed them sub in October, so the "winter bees" have lipid (fat body) stores and are in peak condition. Just as queens are famously starved so they can fly in swarms, adult bees use their own fat stores for the hive needs. You want to "fatten" them for winter.
I don't replenish sub in November (forcing a restorative dormancy). Put the sub back on when the first natural pollen appears. In my county, this is Eucalyptus-Live Oak - German Ivy. In the Northwest, this is (in my understanding) Red Alder and Vine Maple. Waiting for the pollen is a good excuse to walk along the creeks and observe how the catkins of the Alders are doing.

The date of my pollen bloom varies by year. My Live Oak burst last week (a few weeks early this year). The Eucalyptus is coming on slowly now -- it appears to have been damaged by the drought, and is rebuilding.


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## squarepeg

:thumbsup: excellent post jwc. generally speaking i think it's best when we purpose our management around what the bees are trying to accomplish naturally according to their yearly life cycle.


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## JRG13

Bispham, No, I haven't given up on the idea, just need to adjust my approach to maximize growth to get to a point to start screening for good candidates. I do have a plan, whether or not it's a good one, only time will tell. Am I reinventing the wheel, probably not, but I'm taking a more systematic and efficient approach to it rather than something as simplistic as the bond method which is not very efficient either as far as screening goes, not to be confused with how effective it is.


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## Oldtimer

An interesting thread and some good advice from both sides of the treatment / no treatment camp.

Melissa I think some of what lies behind your initial question is a matter of beekeeping philosophy. Which is that you have decided not to treat, so therefore logically you do not need to monitor as there is no point.

However the dilemma with that view is you are unsure why your hives died. After 7 years of losses your husband is so disillusioned he is quitting, luckily, you are prepared to take it on so for now at least, beekeeping will continue in your family. As the new beekeeper you are taking a fresh start and asking questions, a good thing.

But really the first part of solving a problem is knowing what the problem is. Just deciding you do not want to treat and hope varroa will not kill your bees, does not mean it will be so. Varroa is the number one killer of bees, therefore, in my opinion, you should be monitoring them carefully, given ongoing hive losses. 

It may well turn out that it has been mites killing your hives. You have given no information that shows contrary. So the first thing is to find that out, and that is done by monitoring. Then, if correctly done monitoring shows that mites are the problem, but you are opposed to chemical treatments, there are other avenues open such as using queens claimed to produce bees that do not need treatment, such as are sold by Beeweavers. Not a silver bullet and not as reliable as chemical treatment, but if chemical treatment is ruled out, that could be one option to try.


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## mike bispham

JRG13 said:


> No, I haven't given up on the idea, just need to adjust my approach to maximize growth to get to a point to start screening for good candidates. I do have a plan, whether or not it's a good one, only time will tell.


Sounds like a sound plan to be getting on with - its pretty much what I'm doing. Do you look for feral swarms/cut-outs and likely feral areas for mating purposes? 



JRG13 said:


> Am I reinventing the wheel, probably not, but I'm taking a more systematic and efficient approach to it rather than something as simplistic as the bond method which is not very efficient either as far as screening goes, not to be confused with how effective it is.


I think its efficiency can be improved. For example you don't need to let any colonies die. Requeening from better stock (with a single treatment maybe - depends on your priorities) is the obvious alternative.

I'd have to disagree, and say the bond method is as efficient/effective as you can get in terms of screening. If you can use the best of that ('let alone') combined with maintaining colony numbers I'd say that was a good plan. And yes, a decent population makes a difference. I currently have 58 hives, and I'll be happier whan I've got that number above a hundred. That's been built up from nothing just by swarm collecting and making increase from the best.

My current approach is to not treat and to use the most productive for new queens, with two years of strong production a minimum. I don't know or care what mechanisms they are using as long as they are good self-sufficient go-getters. That doesn't mean I'm not interested. I think my policy of sourcing likely feral survivors has made all the difference - if I'd used domesticated stock I believe I'd have lost far more.

I also use freecombing and unlimited brood nests for a variety of reasons. Nmber one: I think allowing big (healthy) colonies to express their genes strongly in the next generation by rearing large drone numbers is important. Its an automatic, systematic, mechanism that nature has invented and deploys because it make a difference. Natural selection works; what I aim to do is give it space to work in and help it along a bit. 

Good luck with your project.

Mike (UK)


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## mike bispham

JWChesnut said:


> There is no worldwide correct answer to pollen supplementation.
> 
> Nurse bees have a tremendous need for protein. It is the nurse bees that consume protein (bee bread, sub, dead larvae) and not the larvae directly. The nurse bees metabolize the protein into royal jelly.


I think that's 'worker milk' first and 'worker jelly' after a few days (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-1/)

Its the brood that have the 'need' for amino acids and lipids (converted from sugars) - not the nurse bees themselves. Assembling specialised proteins require amino acid building blocks and minerals, and is very energy intensive. 



JWChesnut said:


> Bees have very fine filter structures in their crop (and between their crop and their abdomen/intestine). These structures allow them to ingest or to store pollen at will.


Interesting. Randy says nectar fed directly to larvae may contain a small amount of loose pollen, but it isn't known whether this is accidental (contaminant) or deliberate. Do you have a source for this John? 



JWChesnut said:


> The risk or early protein supplement is that it encourages brood rearing. Brood rearing uses more resources than resting in cluster. The bees may (and do) starve in early spring --- pushed to activity and metabolic demands the forage won't support.


Brood rearing uses _much_ more resources than resting in cluster. And the colony has to find the right balance between maintaining and building its population, and using up resources. We can assume that given sufficient carbohydrate stores building activity is regulated by daylight hours, outside temperature, availability of pollen (stored and foragable) and genetic predisposition.

It that last that bothers me about feeding. I want to allow my bees to become attuned to local climatic and forage conditions. In my view - for me - this is important, for this reason: if I alter their environment and thus get them out of sync with the real world, that will be passed on to the local feral population, and will tend to suppress them. And I don't want that - I want a local feral population that feeds me good survivor genes on an ongoing basis. 

That's my take on pollen feeding. Sugar, fine - I've taken their winter energy stores away from them, and must give it back. Pollen, not so much. 

That said, in a long harsh winter I might be persuaded that a little help wouldn't hurt...

Mike (UK)


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## JRG13

Mike,

Not much in feral's here as far as I know. Just not enough forage to out compete all the commercial bees. Don't get me wrong, the bond method is effective, but letting a colony die out isn't efficient, like you said, requeen etc... then the test can begin again 6-8 weeks rather then having to rebuild a new hive. I'm thinking on the lines of more of a rotational screen... first year hives go into pollinations then into honey production/mite screening. The ones that don't make it, get requeened then right back into the cycle as they'll be a fresh queen come the next pollination cycle.


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## MelissaWilkie

Well, the carniolan hive, #1 in the first post of this thread gave up sometime in the last two weeks.
The 3 ferral hives seem to be going strong. They are eating the sugar from the top board, and from the front of the nucs. It has been mostly a mild winter, and the bees are often moving around. They were today.

I have pictures from the hive that died, but for some reason they won't upload. I'll try later. Nothing smelled. There were no unhatched larva, I didn't see any mites. There was a frame or two of capped honey (that explains why these bees never touched the sugar), and there was pollen. One thing with this hive, when we got the nucs last spring, we put them in a box with some old frames of wax that had mold on them. The bottom box of this hive had never been cleaned out. The mold and old pollen was still there from when we put the bees in this hive.


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## Oldtimer

If there was feed honey, but no brood, the likely cause is it was queenless, although pure carniolan queens can shut down in winter so not possible to say for certain.


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## Eric Crosby

Hi Melissa, if you are eager to meet up with like minded treatment free people in your area I would recommend contacting Kat Nesbit at http://www.blisshoneybees.org 
She organized a treatment free conference in Oregon both in 2013 and 2014. I was there in 2013 and do recall meeting some people from your area, and for sure from Portland. Kat is quite far South in Oregon but she is pretty connected. You may also be interested in looking into Olympic Wilderness apiaries as they are in your state and therefore much more adapted than the southern states bees would be for your area. Lots of good advice here.

Cheers, Eric


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## Rader Sidetrack

MelissaWilkie said:


> I have pictures from the hive that died, but for some reason they won't upload.


Your photos may be oversize. Make sure that they are no bigger than 800x800 pixels and no more than 195 Kb file size.


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## MelissaWilkie

Thanks, here are the pictures:

in the bunch of bees on the top right of the group I think I see a mite.









they had stores of honey and pollen:


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## jwcarlson

MelissaWilkie said:


> Thanks, here are the pictures:
> 
> in the bunch of bees on the top right of the group I think I see a mite.
> 
> View attachment 15289
> 
> 
> they had stores of honey and pollen:
> 
> View attachment 15290
> 
> View attachment 15291


Is that all the bees?


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## MelissaWilkie

This was a big hive in August. I looked through the dead bees for the queen. She wasn't there. Did I just lose the queen?


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## Oldtimer

Impossible to know for sure. You said there was no brood, so I said it could have been queenless. But in fact the photos show the odd scattered cell with dead brood in it. Which could indicate something other than queenlessness weakened the bees and forced them to abandon the brood slowly, or, something was directly killing the brood.

One thing I can say, it does not look like AFB, as that would have left a lot more dead capped brood. But I'd have to see the comb myself, or at least a more high definition pic of it, to be able to speak with any more certainty.


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## Michael Palmer

MelissaWilkie said:


> Thanks, here are the pictures:


TF-PMS


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## MelissaWilkie

What is the TF?


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## MelissaWilkie

Okay, I took some better pictures. If you want the whole photo send me an email. 

If these show you anything, could you please tell me what you are looking at?

Thanks.

Oh yeah, if these are mites, Can I freeze the hive bodies and kill them, or does time in a plastic bag kill them?


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## Oldtimer

There is what MIGHT have been some mite excrement, and there is what MIGHT have been a laying worker egg. But there is not a whole lot of either.

There are some indications the hive was queenless, being the large amount of pollen and the lack of dead brood. But all up based on what I can see, for me anyway it's too hard to call.


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## jwcarlson

Michael Palmer said:


> TF-PMS





MelissaWilkie said:


> What is the TF?


Treatment Free - Parasitic Mite Syndrome


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## MelissaWilkie

Thanks!

I'm happy to report that the 3 ferral hives from last year are doing great so far!

I've been feeding them sugar, as I was sure they had not built up enough stores when we captured them.
I am thinking I should start supplementing with pollen. I was thinking I would do this in the first week of February.
Then I had been advised to let the 5 frame nucs get strong before I move them to a hive box. So I'm thinking I'll look for a good day in March (getting back from traveling) to evaluate and move them. It's usually pretty rainy, but I might get lucky and get a day.

I want to build up to 8-10 hives, so I've been wondering if I should get these ferral nucs to raise another queen? Any thoughts? This would really be new ground for me. 

Thanks for all the support you all have offered. I really appreciate it.

M


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## squarepeg

awesome. i would consider letting the colonies build up to just before swarming and then split the existing queens out with three frames of bees, brood and stores. make sure to leave eggs in the parent hives. check the parent hives in about a week to 10 days for capped queen cells. you can use those if you want to make even more splits. check with the locals to find out when swarming usually starts, and watch closely as you approach that time for swarm preparations taking care not to wait too long. good luck!


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## Eric Crosby

Hi Melissa I would agree with all that Squarepeg just said. You may want to keep an eye on swarming from April 15 onwards. It has been a very mild winter so far in the PNW. I don't feed any pollen substitute. I am a 6 hour drive north of you and would expect you will be getting real pollen in the door from things like hazelnuts within 2-3 weeks. If you are looking to increase your number take some time to watch Mel Disselkoen on you tube. You can split in late April and again around the beginning of July. Those 3 hives can go to 6 in May then 12 in July quite easy and you will get to learn a whole lot in the process (some copies may not requeen).


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## MelissaWilkie

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Your photos may be oversize. Make sure that they are no bigger than 800x800 pixels and no more than 195 Kb file size.


Thanks for your help!


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## MelissaWilkie

I checked my hives a week or two ago, they all had some stores, and queens. This week I fed each of the hives sugar water (which they are putting away like crazy), and they are bringing in a lot of pollen. Alder, and maybe some filberts I think. I'm hoping this means the queen will be laying, and when the maples bloom I will be ready with a bunch of bees.

The next two things I'm thinking about is a) when to move the two hives that are in 5 frame nucs into regular hive boxes, and b) I'd like to split these hives if possible. I have 3 hives and would feel better if I had 6-8 going into the blackberry blooms. :scratch:

Loving my bees


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## squarepeg

awesome. 

once the bees are covering most of the five frames in the nuc boxes it's time to move them into the bigger box.

the best time for splitting when the bees are about to do it themselves anyway by swarming. this varies by location so you may have to ask around. i would consider splitting when the bigger boxes become full of bees.


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## MelissaWilkie

I was thinking the same thing, so I would have 3 frames of brood, pollen, bees to put in the new hive.

When I do that I need to be watching for when they make queen cells themselves, right? So would you be checking the hives every week? more? less?

Thanks.


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## squarepeg

there are many variations on the theme of splitting. i like to use it for swarm control or to isolate a good queen for taking grafts, so i remove the queen and three frames of bees, leaving the parent colony strong and with eggs to make the new queen. i usually look back into the parent colony about a week after the split to make sure there are queen cells, and then again about a month after the split looking for eggs. if the parent colony fails to make a queen you'll need to give them one, or combine a queenright nuc back to it. after a month of being queenless it's not a good idea to give more eggs and let them try to make another queen. if the split is made early enough the parent colony can still yield some harvestable honey, not as much as if they were not split, but more than if they issue a swarm or two.


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## MelissaWilkie

Thanks.

This year I am going to build up my hives. Next year hopefully will be more honey production.


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## squarepeg

you're welcome melissa and good luck making your increase. it depends on the location but in most years here a nuc started early enough can build up and yield some harvestable honey even without feeding. that's partly due to our relatively mild winters and not as much stores needed to get through it.


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## MelissaWilkie

Well we just returned from a month in Belize. Yes it was fabulous, but that's a different thread somewhere else! I dreamed of my bees busy laying eggs, and building up their hives.

When I returned Hive 4 was going great guns. They are still in one 10 frame deep, and have a huge bunch of capped brood. I found the queen, they have pollen and stores.
Nuc 1 has brood, capped and not, I did not find the queen, but they have stores, and are bringing in pollen. Still a small hive.
Nuc 2 looked about the same. I did however find the queen. Then I decided I'd give this nuc a boost so I took a frame of brood from Hive 4 and put it in by the brood in the nuc. I put an empty frame on the edge of the brood in Hive 4.

I have everything read to split when one of these decides they need to start raising a new queen. Maybe in a month or so?

The weather has been so incredibly mild, warm actually. Maples are blooming about a mile away (slightly lower elevation), we will start soon I'm sure. 

Feel free to comment on anything I've done. I really appreciate the feedback.


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## MelissaWilkie

71 degrees here in southern Washington state, so I decided to check if the brood I gave Nuc 2 was doing okay. It is hatching out, and they appear to be doing fine. I marked the queens in both nucs. No sign of swarming.

I marked the queen in hive 4 and found a frame with queen cells on it.  A couple were capped. So I went to Michael Bushs web site and followed these instructions:

* put the old queen in a nuc with a frame of brood and a frame of honey and leave one frame with queen cells at the old 
hive to simulate a swarm. Many bees are now gone and so is the old queen.
*

I will go out in a week and swap the positions of the hives so that they both get a good balance of bees.
At the end of April I will check hive 4 for a laying queen.

The thing I'm not sure of is if there will be any drones around. None of my hives have drone brood in them.


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## squarepeg

sounds like all is well with your your bees melissa, congrats. i'm just now seeing drone brood here but no drones have emerged yet. i like splitting out the old queen and simulating a swarm as mb describes. it takes about a month before you'll see eggs in the queenless split. it's possible that the queen cells you found were supersedure cells so make sure the old queen is still laying good in a week or two.


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## Eric Crosby

Hi Melissa, might be a good idea to find out from people close to you if they have any drones already emerged. Hard to get mated without any drones around. Unfortunately the border guards won't let mine in to visit your new queen. Drones from my strongest hive just started flying this week, but this is totally an exception. most people up here in Vancouver canada will have there first drones hatching out in about a week. If u plan for attempting early matings it is a good idea to ensure you have drones by making them in your own colonies. I won't be starting queen rearing for another 2 weeks at the earliest.


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## MelissaWilkie

I have been watching for drones. And almost didn't split this hive because of that. I am sort of depending on two things; 1) The bees know best. They started raising a queen. 2) Just down the hill from me plants and I'm assuming bees are about 2-3 weeks earlier than I am. So hopefully there are hives down there that have drones already. These bees are feral bees that were collected last year less than 1/2 mile from my house, so I believe they know what they are doing! In any case, I'm thinking if they end up queenless, I can combine them with a hive that has a queen right? At least that's my plan right now.

Thanks for the feedback and advice.


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## MelissaWilkie

So watching the bees yesterday, I observed that there were no foraging bees from the new hive I made with queen, brood, pollen and honey. There was a lot of foraging bees in the hive that I left with the queen cells, they were bringing in pollen and nectar. So I moved the new hive over beside the old hive and I started to get bees going in both hives. Should I leave them side by side, or should I swap positions?

Thanks!


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## squarepeg

when making your split you altered the nurse bee to forager ratio in the colony, and the hive not foraging is probably preoccupied with taking care of brood. no problem leaving them side by side, except maybe when the queen cells hatch and the virgins are returning from their mating flights, and for that it would be better if the hives had a little more separation.


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## MelissaWilkie

I'm not sure how this is all going to turn out, but here is what I did yesterday.
From the two nucs:
The strongest laying queen, a frame of brood, and a frame of honey/pollen got put in a 10 frame deep.
The other queen stayed in her hive. One frame of brood and one of honey/pollen was pulled for the new hive
A new hive was created with the brood and honey/pollen from the two nucs.

I'm either on my way to having 5 hives or I'm totally screwing up my bees. Time will tell.

The weather has been good, however it just dropped about 10 degrees. Hopefully we will get some warm days so the bees can take advantage of the maple trees all blooming.


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## squarepeg

sometimes a small split with only a few frames of bees isn't able to nourish queen cells with adequate royal jelly. they will likely make a queen if eggs or young larvae were given, but the quality of the queen isn't as reliable as when a big strong colony with lots of nurse bees are making and feeding the queen cells. for this reason i've stopped letting small nucs make their own queens. but since you have already started this one wait and see how it turns out, it might work just fine.


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## Andrew Dewey

@Eric - I think the way the law works your drones are welcome to go service Melissa's virgin after visiting with a vet to get their paperwork in order. It is just that if they live through the experience they can't go home to you (would that be lucky or unlucky?) They'd have to stay State side.

I know that's how it works for queens. Drones might be entirely different.


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## MelissaWilkie

The first split I did was from a hive in a 10 frame deep. The second split was sort of convoluted, for the reason you stated. It didn't seem like either nuc was strong enough to split by it's self, so I took 2 nucs, and made a new hive, and the nucs kept their queen. Like you said, "we'll see how it goes".


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## MelissaWilkie

Update from 4/6

I verified that Hive 4 queen is laying, good dense brood pattern.


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## squarepeg

nice. did you check for queen cells in the queenless split?


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## Harley Craig

Melissa, I'm impressed with how quickly you are picking all this up. Keep up the great work and keep the updates coming!


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## MelissaWilkie

No, I was thinking I should just wait till the end of April. But you're right, I could check now, and recombine them if they are not raising a queen.


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## MelissaWilkie

Thanks Harley. I've been working with bees for a couple of years. I've made a few mistakes. But I just love them. So I'm willing to keep on trying.


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## MelissaWilkie

I checked both splits today. The first one, split from hive 4 has 3 queen cells, but I could not see any larva in them. The drones look about ready to hatch.
The second split, a combination from the nucs, has one queen cell, and has a "C" shaped larva in it. I did say a little prayer that I didn't damage anything puting it back together. The queens in the original nucs are doing fine, and laying.

Interesting observation. The bees in the hives that have queens were more cranky than the bees in the splits raising their new queens.

A side note. I have not been smoking my bees. I've always felt like smoke gives me a headache, it can't be good for the bees. On the other hand, if it makes them less stressed when being jostled around, it might be worth it. Any thoughts?

Oh, and one other thing. I talked with someone from our local bee club. She said someone else in the area had done their first splits last weekend too. 

I'm excited to see how this turns out. The bees are really working the maples, the hives all smelled of sweet honey. I love my bees. How fun is this?


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## JRG13

Use smoke, you will find the bees less cranky. You don't have to pour on it heavy either, just a little puff will do it.


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## squarepeg

if i am understanding correctly you made your splits on march 30, so this would be day 10.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmath.htm

i would be concerned about not seeing capped queen cells by now. the one without anything in those queen cups isn't likely to requeen itself. if the one with the c-shaped larvae was breaming with royal jelly and about to be capped it could be alright, but if not it's possible that it has a drone larva in it from a laying worker.

do you have enough frames of brood in the other hives to give each one another frame of eggs?


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## JWChesnut

If the splits are too small and too weak, they will not raise a queen, but just whither away. Too much larvae is worse than too little, as the reduced set of bees cannot nourish all the hungry grubs. Nothing more discouraging to beek and bees than adding a gorgeous frame of brood to "boost" a little hive, and then opening it up to find black and whither grubs and pupa with pinholes in the caps. The little hive clusters up and lets the brood chill.

I split off the boomers, and not the dinks. This is basic husbandry. Better success and better genetics.

I am impressed by Mellisa's enthusiasm for getting into the hives and harassing her insects. However, the missing ingredient is working with vigorous hives.


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## MelissaWilkie

Thanks for the comment JRG13, my question is, "Is cranky bad for the bees"? I'm suited up. It doesn't bother me if they are cranky. I'm just wondering if it's harder on them to be cranky, or to inhale and react to the smoke. This may be somewhat of a philosophical question.

M


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## Oldtimer

Yes it's harder on them to be cranky.


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## MelissaWilkie

Squarepeg, That' what I'm off to do right now, transfer a frame of brood with the youngest larva I can find to the hive with no queen/queen cells. I'm optimistic in that the weather is mild, the maples are in full bloom, and the bees seem to be doing well. 
I wouldn't say that the queen cell that had the C shaped larva was brimming with royal jelly and about to be capped.

I think I'll just give the one a frame of brood, and let the one with the C larva do what it's going to do. If they don't raise a queen, my plan is to combine the queenless hive back with a hive that they came from.

I love working with the bees. What I think I have learned over the last year watching my husband struggle with the bees is that I'm willing to take some risks and keep trying until I find a system that works. I'm not as worried about harvesting honey until I get the hive management down. What I'm trying to learn from the folks here is, 'are my conclusions based on my observations sound.'

Thanks for the feedback.

Melissa


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## squarepeg

MelissaWilkie said:


> I'm willing to take some risks and keep trying until I find a system that works.


perfect. that's kinda how i've approached it and still find myself going :doh:!

but when that happens i immediately let myself off the hook and chalk it up to another valuable lesson learned. trying things and seeing what happens has been the most enjoyable part of the whole adventure for me.

good luck with your splits melissa.


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## Michael Bush

>A side note. I have not been smoking my bees. I've always felt like smoke gives me a headache, it can't be good for the bees. On the other hand, if it makes them less stressed when being jostled around, it might be worth it. Any thoughts?

http://www.bushfarms.com/beessmoke.htm


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## MelissaWilkie

Thanks Michael. I kept thinking, "I should go see what Michael Bush has to say about this... You saved me the search! I really appreciate the wealth of information on your website.

Melisa


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## MelissaWilkie

So yesterday I gave each of my splits a frame of the youngest brood I could find from a stronger hive. There are drones hatched out, haven't seen them flying. Hopefully they will be able to raise queens from these eggs. If this doesn't work, and I haven't caught a swarm in the next couple of weeks, I'll recombine the hives.

It's interesting the 3 queens I have are all from the same hive, (I don't know which was the parent hive) two are splits from one. But only one of the hives with a queen is really feisty. All the other bees stay pretty calm when I'm working with them.

I think I'll break out the smoker next time I get into the cranky hive. 

Two cloudy, rainy days here in the Pacific NW, followed by over a week of sunny lovely weather! Yay!:applause:


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## Eric Crosby

Hi Melissa, as JWC mentioned your splits may be too weak to make the best queen cells. Here is another recipe that you might try.

1. Recombine the 3 colonies.
2. Wait 7-10 days after combine
3. Go in and locate the queen, cage queen place in new hive Shake in or brush 1/3-1/2 of the bees in your colony into new hive. 
4. That night release queen
5. Wait 12 days then go into original hive and decide how many splits u want to make with the remaining bees and brood and number of queen cells. When splitting be aware that most flying bees will go back to the original hive location so that colony can afford less house bees and brood.
6. Vary the recipe as needed. Add sugar to taste


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## Eric Crosby

Sorry Melissa, I skipped a page or so in this thread and didn't realize that you have already have great success with making your first round of splits and that u r already on to your second round. Great Job! Sound like you will have about 20 colonies going into winter at the rate you are going. Glad u didn't need my Northern drones


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## MelissaWilkie

Hey Eric. Thanks for the suggestions. It appears that the hives are taking care of the brood okay. I haven't had luck yet getting them to raise new queens. I'll check back in a week or so and see if giving them young larva helped. Good thing the weather and map!was have been cooperating!


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## JRG13

Splits can be hard at times. I dropped 6 new splits on the ground with cells sometime back in March. A couple were walk aways, the rest had cells from a supercedure or maybe swarm prep, but the queen was absent in the parent hive either way. 1 of the nuc's with cells failed to requeen, I know the cell hatched, never saw a virgin but it was fairly populated. They got a new frame of brood on March 31st, and I noticed no cells being made on the 9th so I split the nuc and added a frame of brood to each. I came back on the 10th to find the split that was not in the original location pretty much absconded with some robbing, so I took the frame of new brood I added which had some nurse bees still and put it into the queenless nuc at the original location. I noticed no queencells then either. I checked it on Sunday the 12th, and it now has queencells on the frame I added on the 31st..... The timing seems off a little, but if they were brand new eggs on the 31st, I could've missed them while they were floating out the larva but I sitll found it very odd on the lack of queencell production that went on and it's a strong nuc.


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## lharder

I think I may have successfully rehabbed a colony with dwindling numbers due to an ill timed move across the yard combined with some robbing. It was too weak to add brood to in my opinion, so I made a 2 queen system with another weak colony also affected by the same move but strong enough to accept a frame of brood. The system had two entrances for each colony, so what I am doing is switching the brood chamber locations every so often so the weakest hive gets more foragers. Meanwhile they get to share each others heat and I can add brood to the stronger colony. I saw good forager behaviour from both halves today. Looks like a system on the upswing.


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## MelissaWilkie

That's really interesting. I've heard of 2 queen hives, please keep me posted.


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## MelissaWilkie

Well never a dull moment in my bee yard. 

I caught a swarm yesterday. I didn't see the queen. I'm assuming she's there. I'll check in a week or so to see if she is laying.

Hive 4 and it's split: 4 is doing well, the queen lays GREAT brood patterns. I can forgive them for being cranky. 
the split is doing well. I did not find a queen, but I did find two queen cells. One still capped, the other hatched out. I'll check in a week for signs of laying.

Hive N1 thrived. The queen is laying nice full brood patterns, they have been moved to a 10 frame deep. N2, the queen is laying, but there aren't very many bees, I may have taken to many from this hive. The split, the bees are foraging well, and taking care of the brood. But no queen, and no sign of a queen. So I combined the split and N2.

So there is an accounting for all 3 queens. Yesterday I caught a swarm on a fence post by my bee yard that often is a place that the swarms like to stop. I did not see the queen. But am I correct that swarms always take the old queen with them? Where then did they come from? I've accounted for all 3 queens in my hives. when I saw this swarm it appeared they were comming from Hive 4 or it's split. But I found the queen in hive 4.

Thoughts?

We are at the beginning of 5 or 6 days of warm sunny weather with maples in bloom everywhere. Hopefully I'll catch a couple more swarms, and the hives I have will thrive.


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## Eric Crosby

If u have more than one when cell in a strong mating NUC they may cast a virgin swarm. If u check on it in 4-5 days and there are no eggs it may be a virgin that is not quite laying yet. However I did have a virgin swarm come into my yard last year and she did start laying on day 4, but that was very fast. The bees don't always seem to read the rule books.


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