# Standing Frames



## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

@GregB was kind enough to share with me his concept of a free standing frame inside a separate waterproof, insulated shell.

He shows some info here: Quick mating nuc frames

And his explanation and more links here: Quick mating nuc frames

His implementation really got me thinking about this, as I have a pile of old coolers/ice chests, and can find more anytime I want.










Today, I decided to throw a few frames together and test it out. As you can tell, I didn't spend much on this.

The outside dimensions are 10" tall, 7.5" long, 1.5" wide. The inside comb dimensions are 6x8










there's a 1/2" bee space on the bottom of the frame:










you can squeeze a lot of these in even a small cooler










They fit inside my 5 frame nuc boxes with bee space all around, so great for moving comb between boxes.











I need to rig up a feeder (bag), and a plastic inner cover to help define the space.

It might also be a good idea to have some end frames, that have either a screen or coroplast stapled to one side, to mostly confine the bees to the space inside the frames.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Loving it, man.

Yes - the main premise here is that with the huge availability of commodity containers (coolers, boxes, fridges, cabinets, etc) - the main hang-up with the current beekeeping is this fixed idea of *a very rigidly-specified hanging frame.*

It is a stupid idea.
Everyone is using the "hanging idea" just because someone else told them so. 

Then everyone is running about measuring the millimeters so that, god forbid, this so-called bee space is not violated somewhere. Lots of people are concerned with the millimeters of underframe buffer in the Lang hives. So on and so one.

In reality, with a free-standing frame, all these commodity containers become available for use. Take them and use them - for free or for dirt cheap.

PS: yes - some sort of frame compatibility with the conventional "hangers" is good to have - it just makes utilitarian sense.

Pictured here - I was thinking along this same free-standing frame about 3 years ago and seeing how regular storage container could be used. In fact, two of these containers could be used as top and bottom (sort of like a clam) and hold a row of free standing frames as sufficiently large hive.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Dimensions of GregB's frames: Quick mating nuc frames


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

I believe Quinby had a standing frame hive deisgn, but I haven't seen much on that topic. In his version, he had "end frames" similar to book ends on a shelf, that closed the ends of the hive, and had a feeder and I believe an entrance.

He used a metal strap to keep the frames pushed together.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> It might also be a good idea to have some end frames, that have either a screen or coroplast stapled to one side, to mostly confine the bees to the space inside the frames.


It will be what we call a "follower board".
This is needed to contain a smaller colony is a large container.
Exact same idea that is used on horizontal hives.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> It will be what we call a "follower board".
> This is needed to contain a smaller colony is a large container.
> Exact same idea that is used on horizontal hives.


Right, a follower board is exactly it. A piece of coroplast or cardboard should would well for this.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> I believe Quinby had a standing frame hive deisgn, but I haven't seen much on that topic. In his version, he had "end frames" similar to book ends on a shelf, that closed the ends of the hive, and had a feeder and I believe an entrance.
> 
> He used a metal strap to keep the frames pushed together.


Correct.
And a Weber book-hive.

Importantly - NONE of these legacy beekeepers have the access to commodity containers that we have today. They'd kill for what we have today. And they'd be using the commodity boxes hands down.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> Right, a follower board is exactly it. A piece of coroplast or cardboard should would well for this.


Just your standard standing frame with cardboard/coro - stapled to it.
That is what I do, actually.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> Dimensions of GregB's frames: Quick mating nuc frames


BTW, I now remember - one "feature" of my frame is that I only cut *one, uniformed *piece of wood.
That is it - one piece to prep for the frame construction.
This is for simplicity.
Then stapled the pieces into the final product.

Pretty much if to go for a large frame - I'd take this exact route - one pre-cut wood component to build the frames.

Of course, reusing the Lang frames is another no-brainer route - which I will use in a new hives in the construction as we speak (more details later).

Compare that to *three unique pieces* for the conventional Lang frame. That is insane - looking for a complication where none is needed. 

The handle/starting strips - from trash pile.
The next version will come from peach tree pruned twigs - perfect for this application.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> And a Weber book-hive.


I haven't come across that one, but I will look it up. 

I just looked at my notes on Quinby's design, again, and his had an entrance on the bottom, and so the space under the frames is how the bees accessed the frames. I guess in your design, you could either drill a hole in the bottom board, or make it thinner, like 3/4", instead of 1.5".

It'll be fun to play with configuring these.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> BTW, I now remember - one "feature" of my frame is that I only cut *one, uniformed *piece of wood.
> That is it - one piece.
> This is for simplicity.
> Then stapled the pieces into the final product.
> ...


Yes, very good point. I made 3 standing frames from a simple 1x2 scrap lumber that was 8 ft long. And they are quick to make, if you have a few tools. I used a miter saw and an air stapler, and they went together quick!

Once I figure out which size works the best with my containers, I'm gonna make a little jig for assembly, and I could knock out a bunch of these in no time.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

@GregB what was your reasoning to put the sides standing up on top? Create a bee space above if you put plastic on top?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> I used a miter saw and an air stapler, and they went together quick!


Exactly, mate!
You are digging it.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Exactly, mate!
> You are digging it.


I was going to prototype one from coroplast, but the wood ones went together so quickly, I figured it wasn't even worth it. I have plenty of scrap wood in this dimension.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> @GregB what was your reasoning to put the sides standing up on top? Create a bee space above if you put plastic on top?


See pic.
Basically, I mean to place any kind of insulation above the frame - plastic/burplap/etc.
Also this creates utility space to feed from above - either solid or liquid.
The utility space below used for ventilation (through the floor); for entrance (optional); for space for extra bees; AND to prevent squishing too many bees by the standing frame.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> I was going to prototype one from coroplast, but the wood ones went together so quickly, I figured it wasn't even worth it. I have plenty of scrap wood in this dimension.


Exactly.
Just as easy to make.
Wood scraps are free and plentiful.
And the wood has desirable properties, as already mentioned.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Weber book-hive


Do you have any info or a link to this design? I'd like to check it out, but my searching so far isn't coming up with anything.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregB said:


> The utility space below used ........ for entrance (*optional*);


Optional.
This is because my entrances are not made low but rather at about the *mid-height.*
This is for reasons, not just randomly.
1)entire wall serves as a "landing pad" (I don't bother with landing boards as not needed and extra work to avoid).
2)the entrance is facing middle of the very first frame comb (I practice warm-way) - this makes the entrance guarding much better as there are always bees at the very entrance.
3)forgot something here... maybe just easier to target the middle of the box when drilling 

See picture:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> Do you have any info or a link to this design? I'd like to check it out, but my searching so far isn't coming up with anything.


Sorry, my bad.
*Huber *hive!
I don't know why "weber" stuck in my mind.

M. Bush's site for your ref:
New Observations on the Natural History of Bees by François Huber 1806 edition (bushfarms.com)


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> 2)the entrance is facing middle of the very first frame comb (I practice warm-way) - this makes the entrance guarding much better as there are always bees at the very entrance.


I think this is a big point, actually, because hives this size are very prone to robbing. Proper entrance placement and setup can make a huge difference.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Pretty much as you see - a battery of frames is freely standing in some outer container.
Bees have access to the spaces above and below frames, thanks to the frame design.
The frames are standing tightly together by design - have this box-inside-box situation.
But the ends of the battery are open for free access and passing through - this presumes foundation-less design OR foundation-based design with the passages pre-cut (for example through the corners).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> I think this is a big point, actually, because hives this size are very prone to robbing. Proper entrance placement and setup can make a huge difference.


Exactly.
I have been ranting about this specific entrance design for the mating nucs at least since 2-3 years ago. I never had robbing issues - whereas this robbing "issue" is a major topic every season. 

This choice was partly by a hunch and partly from observation.

Again, the current customs pull the entrance as far away as possible from the internal bee concentration - then we are crying...


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Sorry, my bad.
> *Huber *hive!
> I don't know why "weber" stuck in my mind.
> 
> ...


He shows one of those here in this video:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> He shows one of those here in this video:


Exactly.
But with this "book" contained inside an outer shell (the commodity container) - no need for the complications with the attached and swinging "book pagers" and the book covers. The "pages" can be loose if you want to think of it that way.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Exactly.
> But with this "book" contained inside an outer shell (the commodity container) - no need for the complications with the attached and swinging "book pagers" and the book covers. The "pages" can be loose if you want to think of it that way.


yes, exactly, This is not a bad design, but the hinged part is awkward, as the video demonstrates.

Remove those hinges and throw that thing in a fridge, and you got something!

I was thinking how in you could have the standing frames on shelves, and have a lot of smaller hives in one big container, like an old fridge. It would work kinda like an AZ hive, but without all the fiddly carpentry. Just a row of standing frames, like books on a shelf. Push them over to a small entrance through the wall, slap a feeder frame on the back, and done!


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

@GregB if you had a fridge, your whole mini nuc farm could be in one container!


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

This fridge could hold a bunch of these frames!

18 frames per shelf, 4 shelves. The frames would be double the length in this container.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> @GregB if you had a fridge, your whole mini nuc farm could be in one container!


Yes.
But here comes another technical challenge - keeping all those colonies separate and apart.

Whereas just tossing several separate coolers around has not such problem. Moreover - I love the transportability of the autonomous coolers (I can see moving them between my multiple yards).

Pick your poison.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Yes.
> But here comes another technical challenge - keeping all those colonies separate and apart.
> Whereas just tossing several separate coolers around has not such problem.
> Pick your poison.


I was thinking of draping/wrapping each with screen or plastic. I agree, keeping them apart will need to be figured out, but I think it could be done.

You're right that the individual containers are very convenient and flexible.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> I was thinking of draping/wrapping each with screen or plastic. I agree, keeping them apart will need to be figured out, but I think it could be done.
> 
> You're right that the individual containers are very convenient and flexible.


No doubt the separation can be done.
But I am really a fan of KISS approaches.
I even hardly keep two colonies side-by-side in my long hives anymore.
Tried it - it works - moved along.
Will do it again if must, otherwise I am fan of autonomous bee-containers (be it a hive or a cooler or a computer box).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Speaking of a computer box - when I first started and was short on equipment, I kept some bees in computer boxes for one summer. It works.
But the issue with me was I spent time building scaffolding so that I could insert it into a computer box. *Then *I could *hang *my frames inside. 
Thinking back it was waste of time, but again - I too had this mental set the frames must hang "because this is how it is done".
No, they don't. 

Dirt Cheap Bee Keeping! | Page 9 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums

Dirt Cheap Bee Keeping! | Page 9 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Yes, the standing frame as a fundamental component changes your entire perspective.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

I found another similar hive using a standing frame concept. Again, not my favorite implementation, but it's still interesting:


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

I made a feeder for the standing frame hive today. It's a standing frame with coroplast stapled to one side, and on the outside of the coroplast, I attached a small bag and made a ladder inside. This allows me to feed the hive without opening the frames





























The ladder is some window screen made into a cylinder and attached to a 1/2" PVC elbow. The elbow goes through the coroplast. This ladder sits inside the bag, so the bees can access the syrup without drowning.










I added some string to the inside of the PVC to give the bees a safety rope.










I mushed some comb on each frame to act as a starter strip, and now we're ready to try it out.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

I added a queen excluder to the first frame in the set, since there's not much comb and no brood in this box. I then put a queen in there and did a flyback split. I removed the queen's hive from that spot, put the ice chest hive with standing frames in the spot, and put her in there behind the queen excluder.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> I found another similar hive using a standing frame concept. Again, not my favorite implementation, but it's still interesting:


We have seen this one before.
Pricey curiosity and nothing more.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> I added a queen excluder to the first frame in the set,


I would just attach that queen excluder to the hive (cooler) entrance (tape/staple it outside)..
Attaching it to the frame itself you just complicates it IMO (while the queen can still get around the frame if gets to it).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> I made a feeder for the standing frame hive today. It's a standing frame with coroplast stapled to one side, and on the outside of the coroplast, I attached a small bag and made a ladder inside. This allows me to feed the hive without opening the frames


Unsure all those gymnastics with the feeder were necessary. 
I don't bother.
If comes to it, I'd just insert a quick and tight division board cut out of cardboard; make passage(s); add queen excluder to the passages.
Fill the feeder bag with plenty of scaffolding (sticks or pieces of plastic).

All those concerns with the queen getting into the feeders have to do with mating nucs where the queens are *runny virgins *looking for stuff to do.
A laying queen does not get into every nook and cranny looking for stuff.
She is busy laying and stays on the combs and near the entrance if possible. 
She is well fed and not looking for food herself (where a virgin very well could be looking for food).

I feel those frames should be free and clear of anything attached to them - you ought to be able to pull out/insert back/move around those frames/move them to any other cooler-hive.
Once you start attaching stuff to the frames - you create unforced hassles for yourself..


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Need to make another batch of my free-standing minis.
One last cooler is to be populated next week (if goes by the plan).
Then I am out of the frames (never meant to go this big with the minis originally).
Good chance to cut up some wood scraps.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> I would just attach that queen excluder to the hive (cooler) entrance (tape/staple it outside)..
> Attaching it to the frame itself you just complicates it IMO (while the queen can still get around the frame if gets to it).


In my setup, the queen cannot get outside of the frames. So, on one end of the stack of frames is the queen excluder, and on the other end of the stack of frames is the feeder with coroplast seal.




GregB said:


> Need to make another batch of my free-standing minis.
> One last cooler is to be populated next week (if goes by the plan).
> Then I am out of the frames (never meant to go this big with the minis originally).
> Good chance to cut up some wood scraps.


I am going to see how this first setup goes, but I have already started designing my version 2.0. There's a few things I want to tweak on size so these can fit all my containers.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Unsure all those gymnastics with the feeder were necessary.
> I don't bother.
> If comes to it, I'd just insert a quick and tight division board cut out of cardboard; make passage(s); add queen excluder to the passages.
> Fill the feeder bag with plenty of scaffolding (sticks or pieces of plastic).


Yeah, this was a quick trial idea, but I agree it's more hassle than it's worth.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

This test queen is not a great queen, she's from last year and survived the winter, but her hive hasn't grown as well as her sisters.

So, for now, I'm just hoping to get her and her foragers to draw up these frames and get some brood going, and then I'll split into another standing frame setup, and drop a cell from a good queen into this.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> In my setup, the queen cannot get outside of the frames. So, on one end of the stack of frames is the queen excluder, and on the other end of the stack of frames is the feeder with coroplast seal.


I my setups I assume that the bees and queen have the entire volume to themselves as they wish.
But *initially *they will stick to the frames only.
If the bees out of the space and start crowding in any remaining free spaces - that is indication of high bee density.
Which is about perfect situation for raising the quality queen cells (ultimate goal of the cooler project).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> This test queen is not a great queen, she's from last year and survived the winter,* but her hive hasn't grown as well as her sisters.*
> 
> So, for now, I'm just hoping to get her and her foragers to draw up these frames and get some brood going, and then I'll split into another standing frame setup, and drop a cell from a good queen into this.


She still should fill up a smallish cooler - no problem.
Conditions should be really good - tight and warm.
Am ready to start pulling frames from the very first utility cooler - brood is hatching, but not much space for more bees.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> I my setups I assume that the bees and queen have the entire volume to themselves as they wish.
> But *initially *they will stick to the frames only.
> If the bees out of the space and start crowding in any remaining free spaces - that is indication of high bee density.
> Which is about perfect situation for raising the quality queen cells (ultimate goal of the cooler project).


Yeah, I have somewhat confined them mostly to the frames in this one, because there's no comb built yet, and I thought they might get a crazy idea and build outside the frames or something like that if given the chance.

I put a cotton towel down as an inner cover/space reducer at the first frame to limit their travel to mostly the frames. 

In my ideal setup, I would confine them to the frames only and have a bee escape on the end frame for those that get outside can get back in. I think that will be more practical for me in the containers I have right now. It would also enable me to house more than one colony per container, which I like for mating nucs.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> Yeah, this was a quick trial idea, but I agree it's more hassle than it's worth.


My idea of a feeding bag.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> She still should fill up a smallish cooler - no problem.
> Conditions should be really good - tight and warm.
> Am ready to start pulling frames from the very first utility cooler - brood is hatching, but not much space for more bees.


Oh yes, I'm sure she will do fine with this space. It's only 8 standing frame, so maybe like 1/2 a 5 frame nuc or something like that.

I just pulled her out of her 10 frame Lang colony which had 6 frames of brood.

She will definitely get the job done, but my thought was, well, if I kill a queen in this experiment with something I may have overlooked, I'd rather kill my worst than my best.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> Yeah, I have somewhat confined them mostly to the frames in this one, because there's no comb built yet, *and I thought they might get a crazy idea and build outside the frames or something like that if given the chance.*
> 
> I put a cotton towel down as an inner cover/space reducer at the first frame to limit their travel to mostly the frames.
> 
> In my ideal setup, I would confine them to the frames only and have a bee escape on the end frame for those that get outside can get back in. I think that will be more practical for me in the containers I have right now. It would also enable me to house more than one colony per container, which I like for mating nucs.


Well, I simply plug into the frames any comb scraps I got (entire box of scraps).
Let them fix it - they do - no building off the cooler lid, a non-issue.

Yeah, any piece of fabric/plastic can easily serve as a space reducer - I do exactly that.

Yeah. You have this multi-colony/single cooler thing going - OK, that is more challenging I get.
Though, with the* plenty of the coolers* laying around...
What is the incentive to stick multi-colony into a single cooler?

A single colony/single cooler is a trivial resolution, granted you have unlimited supply of the coolers.
I mean - IF you have *limited *supply of the coolers, I can see that multi-colony setup being worthwhile hassle.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Yeah. You have this multi-colony/single cooler thing going - OK, that is more challenging I get.
> Though, with the* plenty of the coolers* laying around...
> What is the incentive to stick multi-colony into a single cooler?
> 
> ...


Well, I only have a couple of coolers on hand at the moment, but some of the ones I have are pretty big. But, my mind is always in scarcity mode, even with free junk. I think that's mostly it, I'm thirfty like that.

I'm always thinking of the scale of several dozens, at least, and one of the bottlenecks in queen production is the number of mating nucs you can physically go through in a day. Walking in between each one, taking off lids, inner covers, feeding etc, all of that time adds up. If I can stop and go through 2 or 3 at a time, that saves me a lot of time and effort in a day, and means my operation can fit that many more mating nucs.

If you only have a couple, it's not a big deal, and individual containers are definitely better and easier.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Once this test colony has some time in it, I'll see if it's worthwhile to expand, and if so, I will actively seek out containers. At that point it makes since to be a little selective and pick containers that will work the best for this use (not big ones)


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> Well, I only have a couple of coolers on hand at the moment, but some of the ones I have are pretty big. *But, my mind is always in scarcity mode, even with free junk. I think that's mostly it, I'm thirfty like that.*
> 
> I'm always thinking of the scale of several dozens, at least, and one of the bottlenecks in queen production is the number of mating nucs you can physically go through in a day. Walking in between each one, taking off lids, inner covers, feeding etc, all of that time adds up. If I can stop and go through 2 or 3 at a time, that saves me a lot of time and effort in a day, and means my operation can fit that many more mating nucs.
> 
> If you only have a couple, it's not a big deal, and individual containers are definitely better and easier.


Too bad you have no access (I assume) to a Styrofoam dumpster - the one I routinely stop by provides unlimited supply of coolers of various sizes.
This way I have a very easy single colony/single cooler option.
Even with over-sized coolers - I would just drape a piece of old sheet (old towel/t-shirt) over the frames and call it done.

Anyway, you are the boss. 
Multi-colony setups for sure require queen-proof seals.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Too bad you have no access (I assume) to a Styrofoam dumpster - the one I routinely stop by provides unlimited supply of coolers of various sizes.


I need to find one of those here. I live in a rural area, so I may have to go to the city for ample supply.



GregB said:


> Multi-colony setups for sure require queen-proof seals.


The nice thing about these standing frames is that you can staple something on your end frames and seal it up pretty well. It's actually very versatile in that respect, which is one of the reasons I like it.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)




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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

I forgot to show the coroplast rain guard, these coolers are not rain proof, but this coroplast sign with 2 bricks make them rain proof.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Well, I need to make more standing frames for myself when I get to it (but rather soon).
Need to have a batch of 20-30 frames made up.
Hopefully that should satisfy the need.
When I get to the queen mating stage this summer - there are no frames for that left.
The real hassle for me is - dragging out the table saw out of the junked-up garage.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Checked on this little hive today. They look good, building comb.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Checked on the ice chest hive today, and they several frames drawn out with nectar and eggs



















This hive is very easy to work, and I'm amazed that they drew out the comb straight and on the frames, there are no comb guides on these frames. I just put a little glob of wax on each one in the center.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> This hive is very easy to work


Yep.
I have been doing this for two summers now (this is my third).
People still get puzzled by the idea of free standing frames. 
Just try and see. LOL


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

The heat here is starting to slow the bees down (106 here today). So, I'm probably not going to be making a lot more splits until things cool off a bit.

But my plan is to keep the standing frames going and use them to start multiple new cooler hives next spring.

So far, I've been really please with how this little hive performs. I love the standing frame format.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Quickly re-assessed my minis today.
You can see how easy it is to flip through the frames without pulling them out - sort of like flipping the books on the shelf.
One potential issue with 1.5" framework - some bees tend to double-comb them (particular colonies).
I am aware of this from the past.
Not a big deal with small mini-cooler colonies and easy to correct IF it matters.
On the other hand making the frames more narrow is *more work. *
I don't care for more work. 
1.5" frames will do.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

I may try a set of pallet wood standing frames. I could make a boatload of frames from one pallet and probably an afternoon.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> I may try a set of pallet wood standing frames. I could make a boatload of frames from one pallet and probably an afternoon.


The same sizing you've done so far?

Thinking wider here - a standing frame *compatible *to conventional boxes is a good idea.
When saying "compatible" - I mean compatible in the short-way (cross-wise) to the conventional boxes.
One good version could be compatibility to a conventional 10F or 8F deep box.
This version of the frame then could be still used in a variety of coolers, containers, boxes (being short enough).
At the same time (with very minimal mods) you can deploy the same frame directly into 10F box of a bee buyer.
For example, (1) a top bar can be zipped to the free-standing frame and (2) frame support can be screwed into the box itself.

While the honey producers are locked to follow the current commercial settings (extractor, etc) - the bee sellers have much wider latitude.
You can grow the bees in much more bee-friendly environment (insulated boxes/coolers), but sell them out into different but yet compatible environment too.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> The same sizing you've done so far?


yeah, probably. Mine fit easily in my nuc boxes cross wise. I'll need to play with that aspect a bit going back and forth between the 2 systems to really fine tune a frame for that.



GregB said:


> You can grow the bees in much more bee-friendly environment (insulated boxes/coolers), but sell them out into different but yet compatible environment too.


I agree, and I think there's a real potential here in doing that. 

I currently sell 5 frame lang nucs, cause that's what the majority of folks have and want, but I get a lot of people that keep bees in all mediums or top bar hives or other systems, and no one is providing nucs for them. Those folks pretty much resort to packages, but if you had a sort of "universal frame" that could integrate into literally ANY box, you'd really have something there.

Folks could buy whatever volume size starter hive they wanted or needed. 4 universal frame, 6 UF, 8 UF, 12 UF, whatever. Throw 'em in a scrap cooler and drive home.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> Folks could buy whatever volume size starter hive they wanted or needed. 4 universal frame, 6 UF, 8 UF, 12 UF, whatever. Throw 'em in a scrap cooler and drive home.


Yep.
That is the idea.
Need to think up of a good dimension for the UF.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Not that I would ever suggest buying styrofoam, but the Dollar Tree has these mini coolers for just over $1 each:









If you were unable to find junk coolers or boxes, you could use those with standing frames for mating nucs.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> Dollar Tree has these mini coolers for just over $1 each:


Yes.
*$1.*
I have long been saying what opportunities the standing frame opens up.
People are getting exciting about making *$4* mating nucs from XPS (this still includes work to make those short-lived structures).

Yes - you spend time making the standing frames - but this is long-term investment since the frames will last forever (and outlast the containers many times over).


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Yep.
> That is the idea.
> Need to think up of a good dimension for the UF.


Probably the dimensions of a 1/2 medium Lang frame would be the most universally accepted frame.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Yes - you spend time making the standing frames - but this is long-term investment since the frames will last forever (and outlast the containers many times over).


Those standing frames go together so easy, they almost assemble themselves. It takes me longer to assemble a 5 frame nuc box than a handful of these standing frames. With a jig, you could assemble dozens at once.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Another option on sizing would be to make it a deep frame's depth, and then you could rotate it on it's side, and it would be a medium depth that way. So, that would be a standing frame of 9 5/8" by 6 5/8". Or do it the other way, and make it the depth of a medium box, and rotated 90 degrees, it's the depth of a deep box.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> Probably the dimensions of a 1/2 medium Lang frame would be the most universally accepted frame.


Thought about it.
There are cons to consider.

The 1/2 medium frame feels *too small* IF the colony is to winter on it (which is a valid use case).
My preference would be 1/2 deep frame - with one of the goals to winter spare queens/starter colonies.
At the same time it is still small enough to be utilitarian with many commodity containers.
At the same time, this sizing fits well into the tilted boxes in place of conventional frames (next thread over).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> Another option on sizing would be to make it a deep frame's depth, and then you could rotate it on it's size, and it would be a medium depth that way. *So, that would be a standing frame of 9 5/8" by 6 5/8". *Or do it the other way, and make it the depth of a medium box, and rotated 90 degrees, it's the depth of a deep box.


Great idea.  
Worth looking into it.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> that would be a standing frame of 9 5/8" by 6 5/8".


Spent the time measuring my foam coolers on hand.
Looks like a common minimum internal depth is just* under 7"*. (this is for many small coolers used for medicine shipment).
So I see how I chose the length of the wood cut for my mini frames - *6 7/8".*
This is an OK frame for summer projects (as originally envisioned).
Also this frame fits easily into the widely available coolers that I get - that was my original thinking (to fit those coolers).

But, this frame is too small to be the UF.
The standing UF should definitely have built-in Lang compatibility.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Some more ideas.

I put two half frame mating Nucs in an insulated box last winter. One was a weak population because the hornets were picking off bees in the fall. I have room at the top of the box for a 1.5 lb brick of sugar. I put a string of five xmas lights in the box with a thermostat/relay. I replenished the sugar brick once over the winter. The Nuc is thriving and is three mini supers high. I made a similar box for a friend and it was thriving until mid Feb when she neglected to replenish the sugar. 

One can also invert a small jar with sugar syrup on top of the frames.

The top of the frames are slightly less than 1/2 the length of a full sized frame. The idea is that one could build a hanger, remove one queen and winter as essentially a five frame Nuc.

One could push two/four mating Nucs together and insulate. 

I know it takes some more time to build ears for the frames to hang. However, it is pretty easy to notch the end of the top bar with the table saw. I think the ears make for less quishing of bees and possibly the queen. 

I taped four pieces of styrofoam together to make perimeter insulation for late fall, until the bigger insulated box was made.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mgolden said:


> Some more ideas.
> ..........................
> I know it takes some more time to build ears for the frames to hang. However, it is pretty easy to notch the end of the top bar with the table saw. I think the ears make for less quishing of bees and possibly the queen.
> 
> I taped four pieces of styrofoam together to make perimeter insulation for late fall, until the bigger insulated box was made.


Surely the minis can winter - you very well demonstrate this.
It is just by even looking at your picture I immediately see how much work was put into this project.
Now multiply this to 10-20-30 nucs.
Then multiply the work needed for those frames.
None of this work is necessary - this is our point all along (the main part being - reusing ad-hoc commodity containers of various dimensions as-is).

BTW:


> I think the ears make for less quishing of bees and possibly the queen.


This is nothing but a theoretical perception.
You simply move the free standing frames somewhat differently - kind of the horizontal hive style.
Once you run horizontal hive, your evolution to standing frames is pretty natural.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

GregB said:


> None of this work is necessary - this is our point all along (the main part being - reusing ad-hoc commodity containers of various dimensions as-is).


I respectfully disagree.

This is not work when you are retired and enjoy some woodworking. It is not much extra work to do it right the first time. I am also a believer in standardizing equipment. Otherwise, one is fighting finding the equipment that fits together. But hey, build as you see fit.

Hanging frames are built the way they are for a reason. Some of the reason is to prevent squishing of bees, workers and queens underneath and when pushing frames together. Speed of working the hive is also part of it. Nothing to do with theoretical perception.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mgolden said:


> I respectfully disagree.
> 
> This is not work when you are retired and enjoy some woodworking. It is not much extra work to do it right the first time. I am also a believer in standardizing equipment. Otherwise, one is fighting finding the equipment that fits together. But hey, build as you see fit.
> 
> Hanging frames are built the way they are for a reason. Some of the reason is to prevent squishing of bees, workers and queens underneath and when pushing frames together. Speed of working the hive is also part of it. Nothing to do with theoretical perception.


OK, mgolden, sounds like you are retired person and have a very good hobby.
Good for you.

Keep in mind some of us here are:

employed
unable or unwilling to spend much money on this activity
have very little time to spare
trying to make a little $ amount off the activity too

With this in mind, we are trying to be innovative and frugal.
You said - "Some more ideas."
But sounds like you mean to talk about mini-nucs - we have talks for that topic too.
Here we talk about *standing frames* and their usage in* ad-hoc containers*.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

OK, made my main standing frame unit for my 3rd year queen - hopefully, will be able to pull off some daughters on the cheap.
No more frames left - now I really have to staple together another batch.
Got them started on five frames for now, but pretty soon will start dumping the reinforcements from the resource minies.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

mgolden said:


> This is not work when you are retired and enjoy some woodworking. It is not much extra work to do it right the first time. I am also a believer in standardizing equipment. Otherwise, one is fighting finding the equipment that fits together. But hey, build as you see fit.



Hmmm? right the first time??? Who decides what is right?

If one makes their own frames and hives one is never fighting finding the equipment that fits together. Standardization is only necessary if you wish to sell, other than that it means naught.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

ursa_minor said:


> Hmmm? right the first time??? Who decides what is right?
> 
> If one makes their own frames and hives one is never fighting finding the equipment that fits together. Standardization is only necessary if you wish to sell, other than that it means naught.


Stand alone frames in a cooler sure looks like a mating Nuc.

Once a Beekeeper works hives for a few years, they almost always standardizes equipment. Successful ones do for sure. Ian Steppler, Greg Rogers, Bob Binnie, Chris Werner, etc come to mind.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mgolden said:


> Stand alone frames in a cooler sure looks like a mating Nuc.
> 
> Once a Beekeeper works hives for a few years, they almost always *standardizes equipment. * *Successful ones do for sure. Ian Steppler, Greg Rogers, Bob Binnie, Chris Werner, etc come to mind.*


Sam Comfort is a shirtless bum with his scrap hives and cabob skewers..
OK.
Moving along.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Ha, ha, Sam Comfort as a role model!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mgolden said:


> Stand alone frames in a cooler sure looks like a mating Nuc.


Yes - it looks so because this is what we are trying out at the moment.
The point you are not willing or not able to see - this is a *wider concept.*
This idea has been re-iterated multiple times by now.
I can not add much more.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Sam Comfort is a shirtless bum with his scrap hives and cabob skewers..


And he produces THOUSANDS of queens a year without standardized equipment


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mgolden said:


> Ha, ha, Sam Comfort as a role model!


In certain ways he is my role model, indeed.
There is nothing to be ashamed of.
On the contrary.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

mgolden said:


> Ha, ha, Sam Comfort as a role model!


Is this supposed to be an insult or something? Comfort is one of the most (if not the most) successful treatment free breeders in the world.

I doubt anyone in this thread has even a fraction of the knowledge or experience he has.

You could do a lot worse than Comfort as a role model, believe me.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

mgolden said:


> I am also a believer in standardizing equipment.





mgolden said:


> Once a Beekeeper works hives for a few years, they almost always standardizes equipment. Successful ones do for sure.


Your custom mating nuc is not standardized equipment. Nothing in this thread is about standardized equipment. I'm not sure why you continue to post about it, here, but it's completely irrelevant to the topic.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

velacreations said:


> *Nothing in this thread is about standardized equipment.*


+1

I believe there may be some misunderstanding within this thread, by the use of the term 'Standing Frames'.

My understanding (rightly or wrongly ...) is that a standing frame is one which fits *inside* a beehive, and has bee-spaces surrounding it in the same way as Langstroth's hanging frames, but simply lacks top-bar lugs. Such frames rely upon some means of spacing them apart, and require the protection of an outer hive body.

In contrast, what I see being described within this thread are actually 'Sectional Frames' - that is, they do not have any bee-space clearances but rather touch on all four sides, thus forming one 'section' of the hive itself. And, as already mentioned, all that's required when using these frames is some form of plate fitted at either end to complete the beehive structure.

Such frames were used by Huber, Quinby and Adair. To support his frames vertically, Huber relied upon hinges connecting the frames together along one side; Quinby fitted an iron 'tongue' to each frame's base which slid into a slot formed within the baseboard, thus supporting it; Adair held multiple frames together with pairs of thin wooden slats which increased the frame's combined footprint such that they became self-supporting.

In my opinion, it makes little sense to talk about 'standardising' sectional frames in order that they may co-exist alongside the hanging frames of Langstroth, as their physical structure is fundamentally different.
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> +1
> 
> I believe there may be some misunderstanding within this thread, by the use of the term 'Standing Frames'.
> 
> ...


Yep.

One important differentiation from Huber, Quinby and Adair in the context discussed - we (I am for sure) are not concerned with the *section *(as you call it @little_john) to be bee-proof.

The bee-proof and weather-proof jacket is a generic commodity container found from some common source.
The frames are standing inside such jacket in relatively free format.
Some loose draping over/around the frames could be used (optionally!!!) to control the utilization of the volume by the bees.

As I mentioned, had Huber, Quinby and Adair have easy access to variety of containers as we have now - they would most likely have taken that into consideration.
But they did NOT have access to coolers and storage containers and freezers of various shapes and sizes.
Nor could they have ever imagined the future 150 years forward - when coming up with their own original designs.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

velacreations said:


> Your custom mating nuc is not standardized equipment. Nothing in this thread is about standardized equipment. I'm not sure why you continue to post about it, here, but it's completely irrelevant to the topic.


You're missing the point. Most beekeepers standardize within their operation. I have never claimed my equipment is an industry standard. However, I can exchange frames among mating Nucs, insert mating Nuc frames into Nucs and full sized hives, combine two mating Nucs into Nucs and 10 frame hives. The following is a link to a video(from Combining Mini Nuc Thread of some of the possibilities if one puts a bit of thought and effort into making mating Nuc frames





 
Treatment free is irrelevant to the thread, however, you brought it up. 

There are many Ph Ds around North America and likely the world trying to develop treatment free bees. They have made some progress however, we are a long ways from treatment free. I have little faith in the truthfulness of information coming from self proclaimed treatment beekeepers when the Ph Ds are not making substantial progress. Our local PH ds are well connected to research in North America and the world. They highly recommend monitoring mites because the hives are going to have mites and treat. If we don't, there is a high probability that the hives will be dead by Christmas. There are far too many mite bombs around from behavers and treatment free beekeepers.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

mgolden said:


> *You're missing the point.* *Most beekeepers standardize within their operation. *I have never claimed my equipment is an industry standard. However, I can exchange frames among mating Nucs, insert mating Nuc frames into Nucs and full sized hives, combine two mating Nucs into Nucs and 10 frame hives.


Sounds like you are missing the point that everything you just listed here can be done with the equipment we are discussing - *and then some.*

For example:
Quick mating nuc frames | Page 3 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums

@velacreations and myself here are exchanging ideas that are of interest to us.
So if you would, please, just let us do that.

Standard/non-standard/whatever - just let us do our own stupid crazy stuff.
We'll be OK.


The issue of standardization is NOT lost on silly us (but that is a huge secret it appears - LOL).


> Thinking wider here - a standing frame *compatible *to conventional boxes is a good idea.


Standing Frames | Page 4 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

mgolden said:


> You're missing the point. Most beekeepers standardize within their operation.


Well, in that case, my standing frames are standardized, because they fit in all my boxes



mgolden said:


> I can exchange frames among mating Nucs, insert mating Nuc frames into Nucs and full sized hives, combine two mating Nucs into Nucs and 10 frame hives.


Yeah, we can do all that with the standing frames, too.

But here's the real test, can you take 3 of your frames out of any hive, throw them into a cooler you just picked up off the side of the road and make an instant split? No, hanging frames don't do that very well. You have to spend time making the box fit your frames.

And that's the use our frames are built around.

Everyone can fit standard equipment, that's nothing special. But can your frames fit in ANY container? These can. From coolers to fridges, everywhere I look is a potential hive with virtually no modification.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

little_john said:


> In contrast, what I see being described within this thread are actually 'Sectional Frames' - that is, they do not have any bee-space clearances but rather touch on all four sides, thus forming one 'section' of the hive itself. And, as already mentioned, all that's required when using these frames is some form of plate fitted at either end to complete the beehive structure.


Both our designs do have bee space around the outside of the frame, but they also create the inner cavity of the sectional frames.The reason I used that name for these frames was do to their main feature, they stand, rather than hang.

I do agree, though, that these frames as we are using them are very similar to the designs from Huber and others.

If you have some photos from those other similar designs, please feel free to share them on this thread.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

mgolden said:


> Stand alone frames in a cooler sure looks like a mating Nuc.
> 
> Once a Beekeeper works hives for a few years, they almost always standardizes equipment. Successful ones do for sure. Ian Steppler, Greg Rogers, Bob Binnie, Chris Werner, etc come to mind.


Those are successful beekeepers, but standardization only becomes really important if you wish to go commercial. But once again, who deems what and who is successful? What even is the definition of successful? Is it money, amount of honey, number of hives, internet likes and views or is it just a matter of contentment with your lot. 

I consider any beekeeper who enjoys their craft and learns along the way to be a very successful beekeeper. Money or size of operation, for me, is not the definition of success.

I gave away my standardized Lang. and kept my two homemade long deeps because, for me, they were not easier to maintain, nor manipulate. I found them cumbersome and a bother. But that is just my personal experience.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> *I gave away my standardized Lang*. and kept my two homemade long deeps because, for me, they were not easier to maintain, nor manipulate. I found them cumbersome and a bother. But that is just my personal experience.


I help my "student" with his Langs and, frankly, I only tolerate them because he has them.
That is where I am on the commercial-level standardization topic.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

velacreations said:


> If you have some photos from those other similar designs, please feel free to share them on this thread.


Personally, I make a distinction between sectional and standing frames, as although both are 'standing' (as opposed to hanging) the former has touching edges, whereas 'standing frames' (by my definition) have bee-space clearances between them.

I seem to remember some time back Greg posting a video which showed standing frames above a box of existing frames, placed at right-angles to them in order to minimise the contact area where the bottom bars touched the top-bars below them, an area which of course becomes propolised. I very much see propolis as being the number one issue when considering alternative frame designs.

I will indeed post a few pictures within the next day or two of historical standing frame designs - but for now I'll just post a design of my own (but very different from what you're currently working with) which I abandoned prior to it being commissioned, due to my failure to foresee a fundamental issue.

I don't know if you're familiar with the Bienenkiste Hive: a 3 foot Long Hive which has combs running lengthwise, rather than across the shorter dimension. This hive is 'upside-down' when compared with conventional beehives, although 'the right way up' from the bees' point-of-view, such that the hive needs to be inverted in order to examine the combs. My objective was to build a 'Framed Bienenkiste' the combs of which could be inspected without hive inversion.

I decided to use 'standing frames' (by my definition: with bee-space clearances) in order that frames could easily be pulled out individually for inspection. However, some means of closing-up those frames afterwards was required, and I eventually settled on the use of pressure plates adjusted by external thumb-wheels, with the frames themselves having spacing screws in all four corners. In order to eliminate frictional resistance, hard plastic runners were bonded to the hive floor, upon which the frames rested. That particular aspect of the design worked well during dry runs.

However, I'd overlooked one very important factor, which didn't appear until the design was almost ready to be commissioned, and which is such a fundamental flaw that I had no other choice than to abandon the build, and completely re-build this hive and it's frames into a hanging-frame format.

Of the twenty-four 11 1/4 by 11 1/4 inch (Gallup sized) frames, just one had gone out of square. Sure, I could have easily fixed small blocks in it's corners to rectify this - or have even made a replacement - but this event had shown me that my basic concept was flawed at it's heart, and therefore couldn't be relied upon to be serviceable over the long term.

The issue is one of to where the bee-space clearance is being referenced. With my standing frames, this reference is at the bottom of the frame, such that any deviation in the frame's shape results in a clearance error occurring at the top of the frame, where such clearances are important.
However with hanging frames, with clearance reference being made at the top, any deviation in frame shape will occur towards the bottom, where clearance precision is far less important.

As I see it, with removable combs (either frames or top-bars) you either have bee-space clearances or you don't. If you choose not to have them (as they are not essential), then the issues to be faced are either that of propolis build-up, or the building of 'wild comb'. In both cases, withdrawal of individual combs then becomes problematic. At mating-nuc size, this is unlikely to be much of a problem, but is undesirable within full-sized hives.

A few pics:

Frames prior to installing starter-strips and comb supports:










Basic box structure, showing fixed partition and anti-friction floor runners: 










Box showing frame placement and this the importance of clearances. Also the pressure-plate thumb-wheels:










Pressure plate construction:










... and bonded-on bronze coin used as pressure bearing:










An interesting challenge , but one which turned out to have a basic flaw.
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> As I see it, with removable combs (either frames or top-bars) you either have bee-space clearances or you don't. If you choose not to have them (as they are not essential), then the issues to be faced are either that of propolis build-up, or the building of 'wild comb'. In both cases, withdrawal of individual combs then becomes problematic. At mating-nuc size, this is unlikely to be much of a problem, but is undesirable within full-sized hives.


As I see this context - at least some use cases are valid and useful with freely standing frames without regard to bee-spaces (with optional free-draped material over the frames).

1) a classic mini-nuc - no bigger than 3-4 mini-frames (a classic mating mini-hive)
2) a utility mini-nuc - up to 10 mini-frames (a mini-long hive used for resources or queen production or queen wintering)
3) a classic nuc - up to X half-frames/Universal Frames (UFs) to be defined yet (this is rather a classic nucleus hive that can serve as a traditional nucleus hive, including the cases #1 and #2)

Any of these are not well suited for the honey production (just some fringe cut/crash).

However, I see very a good potential for either #1, #2 and #3 in the *queen/bee production* since the idea of a *very large hive* is mostly NOT applicable here.
Whereas the setup favors the development and support of small/ultra-small colony sizes while *minimizing the investment.*

PS: the frame sizing for the #3 use case can be indeed something of the "11 1/4 by 11 1/4 inch (Gallup sized)" sizing or a practical variation that supports *compatibility* to the traditional Langs (as a traditional nucleus should be directly compatible).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> then the issues to be faced are either that of propolis build-up, or the building of 'wild comb'.


I don't see this being such a big deal during the standard operation (the "standard" operation meaning *until *the cavity is TOO FULL).

When too full the bees will simply swarm away (OR the beekeeper handles the situation).
The key word, again -* flexible, soft draping cover (simply put - an old, cotton sheet).*
All it is to it.

That what demarks the external cavity boundary - the old sheet, NOT the container walls per se (unless you choose so OR the container is indeed tight).

IMO, LJ, you over-appreciate the bee-space issue.
This is similar to "Carniolan vs. carni" (for the Germans) in my view. 
It does not matter that much - all those millimeters (unless you choose them to matter and design/build for them to matter).


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

@little_john Thank you for sharing your project and details. Please feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, but the bee space you are referencing here is between the frame and the box, right?

This is why I went to my "sectional frame" current design. I think this is exactly why the sectional frame idea is superior for the small colony applications.

My thought process was that I have lots of different sized containers, so if I want it to be versatile enough to fit all of them, the only way to truly do it, is to keep the bees contained the space inside the frame, rather than inside+outside.

In practice, this ended up being as simple as an old t shirt as a gasket to join the first sectional frame to the outer container. The last frame I am using in the line of frames has a coroplast end stapled to it (with a small feeder).











The question I keep asking was why do the bees need to be outside of the frame in the first place? The answer is that they don't. Confine to the inside space, and bee space issues are now completely solved.

We'll see how the cooler hive progresses, I'm sure there are lots of other issues that will need to be addressed.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

@little_john The sectional frame then allows us to house multiple colonies in larger containers.

Like shelves of small colonies inside a fridge. It's the sectional frame queen castle:


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

little_john said:


> In my opinion, it makes little sense to talk about 'standardising' sectional frames in order that they may co-exist alongside the hanging frames of Langstroth, as their physical structure is fundamentally different.


The weird thing is, they fit quite well, and mine even has bee space around it when it's in a 5 frame nuc box.











In my mind, the idea is that I am going to be transferring one sectional frame to a Lang nuc, basically the queen and a brood comb and bees.

You don't want to fill a Langstroth box with these frames, instead, you want to harvest what your sectional frame hive produces into a Lang box.

The perfect example of this is requeening a Lang hive. A laying queen on her own brood gets almost 100% acceptance to a queenless hive, and she never slows down. The sectional frame temporarily becomes a queen acceptance cage, and once she gets going in the new hive, remove that sectional frame and put it back in your sectional hive.

That's a huge advantage in my opinion, and I could see it being a major game changer in my nuc production operation (my main business). Mated queens in cages take a good week or more to really get going in new nucs. Queens that don't stop laying and are transferred on brood don't have this time delay. During a nuc season, that can translate into 30% more nucs produced in the same season.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> The perfect example of this is requeening a Lang hive. A laying queen on her own brood gets almost 100% acceptance to a queenless hive, and she never slows down. *The sectional frame temporarily becomes a queen acceptance cage,* and once she gets going in the new hive, remove that sectional frame and put it back in your sectional hive.
> 
> That's a huge advantage in my opinion, ......



Well stated and fits about identically with my vision too.
I talked exactly along this same line 2 years ago now - as documented by Beesource.
So I was trying to refine/develop the method in the community of one - talking to myself. 
Your experience/ideas @velacreations are perfect in this regard - as the commercial side of this application did not click with me (until now).










GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.


When did you move them? there are times the pupa's wings are very sensitive to any movement of the cells I have been following LJ's: If moving queen cell, best between days 11 and 13 inclusive. LJ says: days 14-16 if chilled or shaken wings may be damaged. The wings definitely just not grown...




www.beesource.com













GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.


When did you move them? there are times the pupa's wings are very sensitive to any movement of the cells I have been following LJ's: If moving queen cell, best between days 11 and 13 inclusive. LJ says: days 14-16 if chilled or shaken wings may be damaged. The wings definitely just not grown...




www.beesource.com


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> The perfect example of this is requeening a Lang hive. A laying queen on her own brood gets almost 100% acceptance to a queenless hive, and she never slows down. The sectional frame temporarily becomes a queen acceptance cage, and once she gets going in the new hive, remove that sectional frame and put it back in your sectional hive.


Another option is to terminate the "sectional" hive at the season's end by combining it to the full size colony (and re-queening the full-size).








GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.


Helped my "student" to split his bees - we did my brood-less style split for him. Meanwhile removed some drone brood. Wow - look. This is after a very good winter with a single OAD and a double-brood-break. These bees are loaded already. Yikes! Have seen worse, but now is a good time to clean...




www.beesource.com


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Your experience/ideas @velacreations are perfect in this regard - as the commercial side of this application did not click with me (until now).


Selling bees is where the money's at in my particular climate and local demand. You can make money at honey, too, and plenty of people do, but very few are producing quality bees for stocking. Everything changes in your operation and your outlook when your focus is bee production, rather than honey production.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> Selling bees is where the money's at in my particular climate and local demand. You can make money at honey, too, and plenty of people do, but very few are producing quality bees for stocking. Everything changes in your operation and your outlook when your focus is bee production, rather than honey production.


Right.
I seem to have more fun in running the bees than running the honey (just to pay for the gas).
But also the real problem in my location is inability for the local beeks to even keep their bees alive over the winter - something of a fun challenge and opportunity.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Selling a sectional frame with a queen and her brood, you could charge a premium for that queen like that, and provide a much better product for your customers. A good queen in my area will run $45 in the spring. I've bought plenty at $30 and $40 myself that failed for one reason or another. 

I would think plenty of folks would buy a queen on her brood for $50 or even more in one or 2 of a universal sectional frame, with installation instructions, etc. Or maybe you want to feel a little safer and get 3 or 4 USF ($100) to give the hive a bit of boost, as well. 

The flexibility of the platform lends itself well to commercial applications, IMO.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> Right.
> I seem to have more fun in running the bees than running the honey (just to pay for the gas).


Honey is a lot of work to make good money. I'm lazy.

I prefer to work 100 nuc colonies that are all sweet and nice and at a comfortable level for my back, not lifting anything, really, than 20 giant mean bastards that are filling supers faster than I can throw them on, and then have to lift stacks and stacks of heavy boxes in the hottest part of the year. YUK!

Instead, I sit in the shade and work my little nuc boxes in barely a veil and mark queens.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> Honey is a lot of work to make good money. I'm lazy.
> 
> I prefer to work 100 nuc colonies that are all sweet and nice and at a comfortable level for my back, not lifting anything, really, than 20 giant mean bastards that are filling supers faster than I can throw them on, and then have to lift stacks and stacks of heavy boxes in the hottest part of the year. YUK!
> 
> Instead, I sit in the shade and work my little nuc boxes in barely a veil and mark queens.


Exactly - honey is too much sticky work.
Meanwhile, if this cooler business is figured out - even I with my bad shoulder can move tiny coolers all day long. LOL


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Another possible use is a queen bank, like you could have a line of these sectional frames, each enclosed with stapled on queen excluders being serviced by a shared worker force.

Make a queen sale? Pull a frame, staple on a screen, and send her on her way.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

velacreations said:


> Another possible use is a queen bank, like you could have a line of these sectional frames, each enclosed with *stapled on queen excluders* being serviced by a shared worker force.


Which, btw, makes total sense to keep these frames at *1.5"* width dimension - as 1.5" width gives comfortable* inside-frame* space (if the frame is used as a deployment/shipping *container*).
So, basically, I am staying with 1.5" wide frames.
No need to second-guess that part (not to mention ease of making from 1.5" dimensional lumber).

I have see many attempts to winter queen banks within regular hives/regular frames.
But this particular model maybe, actually, revolutionary.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> I have see many attempts to winter queen banks within regular hives/regular frames.
> But this particular model maybe, actually, revolutionary.



Ladies and gentlemen, the future of beekeeping:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

And here you go - today I had a chance to do just this - deploy a mini-standing frame into a hive.

Reason - I went through the entire target hive destroying EC's because I did not want an F2 queen there. Then I went to a source of F1 ECs, and...... every single worthwhile EC was on the same single frame.
In the past I would monkey about cutting out a queen cell and installing it else where.

But not today.
Turned out my breeder mother queen has been lying rather nicely in her mini-nuc.
So today I tested deploying a mini standing frame, just like this.
Wiped the bees away.
Zipped.
Installed.
(did not think of removing the painter's tape - no longer needed there - but not important).

What is the big deal?
Instead of moving entire large production size frame (potentially 2-3 frame worth of bees) - I moved a mini frame (1/3 size of a Lang medium) from a non-producing colony. 
Cheap and safe (I OAD the minis from the start).


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Nicely done!


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

velacreations said:


> @little_john Thank you for sharing your project and details. Please feel free to correct me, if I'm wrong, but the bee space you are referencing here is between the frame and the box, right?


Very nearly - the bee-spaces between the frames themselves and between frames and side-wall are governed by spacing screws - so no problem there. The problem was that of the bee-space in the longitudinal direction, thusly:










Which can vary should the frame ever become out of square. With hindsight, the overriding error I made was to start-off by being focussed on hanging-frame construction, modifying it fairly simply for standing-frame use, and assuming that this would work. Again, with hindsight, the reason I did this was that I'd developed a rather neat method for making hanging-frames using an existing large stock of 10mm thick battens - and so I just carried on thinking (or rather, not-thinking) along those lines ...
The 'sectional' version of the standing frame (which is what you're using) is a far better proposition, as bee-space issues no longer apply.

I appreciate that you guys are working with small frames right now, and with existing insulated containers - but *if *you should ever extend this idea into a full-size hive format, then the following might be of interest.

So - first the hives of Adair and Quinby, as promised.

Adair is generally considered to have been the earlier inventor of the two, and filed a Patent for what became known as his No.1 Hive in 1867. This is a shot of the basic brood chamber:










On close inspection you may be able to detect that the top-bars are not fixed directly above the side-bars, but offset to one side - Adair claimed this provided more stability. (I wonder if it did ?)
Above this brood chamber were placed a number of section boxes:










A variation of this hive became known as Adair's No.15 Hive, in which the brood chamber and stores frames are all the same size, and of the same basic construction:










These boxes were placed end-to-end within an outer box, and was the forerunner of today's Long Hive. Adair met Elisha Gallup at a beekeeping conference, and both men realised that they were singing from the same hymn sheet, and decided to collaborate. The result never did have a name - I call it the Gallup-Adair Long Hive - which by then had become a four-foot long horizontal hive housing either Gallup-sized hanging frames (11x11) or Adair's frames (13x11) instead of sectional standing frames. This hive was mocked by Amos Root as being impractical, until reports of it's performance came flooding in, at which point Root decided to try it out for himself. The results proved to be so good that Root even planned to replace his version of Langstroth's Hive throughout North America, and eventually the World (!), with what he called 'The Standard Beehive'. Here's Root's advert for it from 1875:










But Root had made two serious mistakes. The first was that by 1875, the Root version of Langstroth's Hive had become extremely popular and many had been sold and were performing well. So for many beekeepers there was no reason whatsoever to change from a proven beehive design to a completely different system of beekeeping. Secondly, in his drive for higher profits by making the hive cheaper to manufacture, Root reduced it's length from four feet to an inadequate three. As one of the original inventors, Adair's personal reputation was on the line, and so within the American Bee Journal he made a blistering attack on Root's devious business practices. (Root was Editor of 'Gleanings in Bee Culture', a leading Beehive Manufacturer, and masqueraded as a novice beekeeper in several beekeeping journals - all at the same time).

Ok, so that's the story of Adair - now onto Quinby ...

It's a little difficult to fix exact dates to Quinby's 'Closed End Frame' Beehive as Quinby died in 1875, and so his new beehive design wasn't announced to the world until 1879 within the book 'Quinby's New Beekeeping', authored by L.C.Root, in which the author states that the hive was invented during 1868.

This is a shot of Quinby's Closed-End Standing Frame:










The top and bottom bars are thinner that the side bars, thus providing a means of supering and for leaving the frame to access the hive entrance via a wide groove cut within the base-board. Here's a shot of that base-board, with one frame placed above that entrance cavity.










This was Quinby's method for keeping frames upright:










These days there are far simpler ways of achieving this, but not in the late 19th Century.

Quinby's hive must have been at least as successful in it's operation as the Root-Langstroth Hive, for Hetherington ran three thousand of them, and a guy named Ellwood over a thousand. Big numbers.
But those guys were the exceptions, for by the time Quinby's design was offered to the mass market, the now familiar Root-Langstroth Hive had already become firmly established during the previous two decades, and it was hard to compete with such a well established product.
LJ


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Very interesting! Thank you very much for sharing. I appreciate your taking the time to put that together and share with us.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

little_john said:


> These days there are far simpler ways of achieving this, but not in the late 19th Century.


To continue ...

My previous post was very long - this one will be shorter. 

So - how to keep full-sized standing frames upright ? Here are a couple of ideas, but I'm sure there are others. These are based on the principle of a complete standing-frame hive mounted on a supporting base, with plates to either end - one of which is used as the hive entrance.

First a 'high-tech' approach.








In the above, a fixed support timber (in magenta) runs the full length of the hive, and to which are affixed two steel/iron strips (in black). Screwed to the side-bar of each hive frame are a pair of doughnut-shaped neodymium magnets (in red). The frames are slid into position so as to avoid crushing bees whilst keeping them touching each other.

Second, a 'low-tech' approach:








This uses a similar set-up, except that only a stub 'stopping batten' is required. If the hive is small, say 8 frames or less, then the entrance end-plate is fixed in position vertically, with a length of string attached to a pin at it's top, with a light bob-weight (plumb-bob ?) secured to the other end of the string. As each frame is slid into position, the first against the end-plate, all others against the previous frame, that string is simply cast over the last frame, with the weight dangling free - this will gently hold that frame in place and prevent it from falling over. Gravity will hold the bottom of the frame in place.

With much longer hives, it would be better if a 'central' frame was secured vertically (say, by a removable bracket), with a weighted string attached, similar to the above. When one half of the frames are installed (as above), one end plate is added, then that half of the array is fully secured with a string or strap. The other half of the frame array can then be installed in a similar manner.

When all frames are in place and secured, an insulated weatherproof box can then be placed upside-down over the whole.

I'm sure the magnet idea could be reversed, using a magnetic strip from a refrigerator door seal, with drawing pins (thumb tacks) pressed into the frame sides.  It may be that magnetic attachment is only required at the top.

But at this stage - just ideas ...
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> To continue ...
> 
> My previous post was very long - this one will be shorter.
> 
> ...


LJ, you are an engineer by heart. 

What I would do - I would simply use a bungy cord to keep the frames tightly together.
So that becomes sort of cube made of frames - the cube will easily stand on its own on most less than perfect surfaces (forget the level).
An old sheet tossed over the top.

If the colony only occupies 3-5 frames - well then slide a piece of cardboard between the frames - to confine the space for the bees - rest of the frames will not need to be conditioned until the colony grows larger.

Entire thing is in a commodity 40 gallon plastic, storage container - max of about 15 frames.
Good enough.
Very mobile too - being a container.
Smallish and mobile and yet a full-size colony.

The full-size-ish frame I see for this application (that should fit most common containers) - squarish frame similar to the Gallup, but the design will copy my current mini-standing frame (on legs).

Actually 2/3 of the Ukrainian frame will be about perfect - while compatible to my overall system and transferrable around the apiary. I really like this Gallup'ish frame - with only minor mods.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Finally gathered together some scraps, cut them up and stapled together additional batch of frames.

Ready so start raising some experimental mini-farm queens. July is almost here - good timing.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Man, am I smart or what?.... 

I did not really mean this by the original design - but my frames fit nicely into the EZ nuc box.
Perfect.

The frames are ~7 7/8" wide (this was meant to fit the little Styrofoam coolers originally).
I don't know what is the scoop, but the EZ nuc is of that same exact width.

So the EZ is a perfect carrier/storage for these standing mini-frames - with bees or without bees.
Yeah!


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

@GregB that's perfect! Nice job!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Pretty happy with this design.

After enough working with these, I find that *both *central handle and the corner ears complement each other very handy as frame handles.
So my original hunch was correct IMO - this is a good standing frame profile, exactly as on this picture.

The downward pointing ears allow do to exactly what is pictured - you pull the frames out and set them aside just standing vertically OR lean them to some vertical surface.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

The central handles, no doubt, would look prettier IF made uniformed and standard.
But my trash pile usage works just as well and very efficiently - if anything, it is about time with me.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Greg,
I see I separate my fire wood and bee hive material at a different line than you.
We all need a line so no worries there.

Ever though of a second hand construction store , like restore or Habitat for humanity and look for cheap drawer knobs or handles? the scraps work , drawer knobs would also work.
could also drill a hole in the end protrusion and use a loop of Para Cord.

nice match up on the EZ NUC box.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> Greg,
> I see I separate my fire wood and bee hive material at a different line than you.


You see I don't burn wood a lot, being a suburban dweller - running on the city natural gas.
We only camp so much - I already have plenty of tree trimmings for that. 

(thinking about a stove for fun and emergency heating/cooking appliance - different topic)

But also - I feel like making a point that good quality woodworking is not a pre-requisite for beekeeping.
It is only a historic assumption and no more (coming from the historic precedent where the dimensional wood was the primary material for everything until recently).
Like I said already, I know I can keep bees in a suitcase.

If I manage to go to the next local beekeepers meeting, I will take along a live cooler with bees along with me - just to make a point that I can easily do it.
I am sure some people over there will be shocked.
How can it be? 
Frames can be ..... different???? 
It is gonna be fun to see some gears turning.
LOL


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

@velacreations,
Any updates on your standing frame project?

Last night I was flipping through a mini, looking for that newly mated queen...


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

GregB said:


> @velacreations,
> Any updates on your standing frame project?
> 
> Last night I was flipping through a mini, looking for that newly mated queen...


No, I've had some family health issues and a drought over the last few months, so that project hasn't progressed much. The standing frame hive in the cooler I have seems to be doing fine, though.

I'm hoping to get back on it this fall.


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## velacreations (Apr 2, 2011)

Just a small update on this, condensed the apiary down for winter yesterday. The cooler hive didn't make it, and I haven't checked on it in quite a while, I expect they swarmed or absconded during late summer. They did draw out all the combs real nice so that's a bonus.

I'll be testing this out again next year, but keeping closer tabs on it to gather data.


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