# Formic acid- I goofed



## SteelHorse (Mar 22, 2009)

If you used a Mite-Away II pad then the instructions say "Seal all holes in the hive except the bottom hive entrance, which needs to be fully open for the entire duration of treatment. Entrance reducers MUST be removed to prevent excessive damage to the colonies. Treat all bee colonies in the apiary at the same time." I'd say remove your entrance reducer and continue the treatment. I would also install a mouse guard.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

But you got rid of your mites, right? inch:


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## Choodles (Jun 2, 2010)

Thanks all. The pad didn't come with instructions, and the beek I bought it from didn't mention the reducer when he showed me how to use it (not his fault; its a little early for the reducer. I had it there because of a robbing situation last week.)

Oh well. At least now, if the hive lives, I have reason to believe mites won't be much of a problem this winter...

Thanks again. I'll report back when I know more.


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## bbbbeeman (Jan 13, 2007)

do yoy think chem` and acid is the only way to kill miites and what effict does it have on them in the long run,does it help thier off spring down the road .good luck rock.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

So I am doing a 45 ml of %60 FA 3x 4 days per hive. Cut all the openings down two 2 inches in the front. Seems to work fine.
I get the FA from http://www.dudadiesel.com/all_chemicals.php mix it down to %60. Ci x Vi = Cf x Vf

You can hear the mites screaming with the treatment. :lpf::lpf::lpf:
_________________________________________
Knowledge is knowing a is a fruit; wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.


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## caberwife (Jun 25, 2009)

Um, are those the Mite-Away II pads? Did your mentor tell you you're supposed to wear a respirator mask, eye protection and chemical gloves when using them? I'm wondering if you knew, since you didn't have the printed instructions. Not sure if this applies to different formic acid pads.

That said, I know lots of you tough beekeepers just stand upwind and avoid splashing your eyes.  Personally I think I'll end up with lung cancer from being downwind of my smoker too often! 

Natalie


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

I don't use the pads but, mix up the fluid put it in a jar with a white shop rag and invert it on the top of the hive. I did 60 hives 3x treatments 4 days each for about 20 bucks. I would think that is cheaper then pads. 

Yes standing up wind is important. That stuff has a pungent smell that clears your nostrils.


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## Choodles (Jun 2, 2010)

Thanks again for all of your replies. 

No, I hadn't been informed (nor was I smart enough to find out) that I needed a respirator. That'll be a deal breaker for future use of this stuff for me.

The whole deal has me more than a little miffed, for several reasons:
1. A pesticide was sold to me without complete instructions and with more than a little exaggeration as to how benign the stuff is. I'll add, the beek who sold it to me really should (and I'm quite sure he does) know better. 
2. I fell for the info. I know better. 
3. I'm a firm believer in the efficacy of IPM. This time, I guess I got a little trigger happy and lost my sensibilities. 

Oh well. Another lesson learned.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Choodles said:


> No, I hadn't been informed (nor was I smart enough to find out) that I needed a respirator. That'll be a deal breaker for future use of this stuff for me.


Try my method. I don't use a respirator. Most of the gas stays in the bottle. Just stay in the air upwind. You can even cover the top with aluminum foil or something to keep the smell down while you place it on the hive. I am sure the pad which is 4 exposed sides has allot more smell. It is also way less expensive.


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## caberwife (Jun 25, 2009)

Choodles, don't let me put you off formic acid! I'm know lots of beeks who don't mask up before using it. The thing that's good about it is that it's one of the "soft" chemicals and I think you are even allowed to use it in organic beekeeping (if I'm wrong, someone correct me!) Formic acid occurs naturally, and according to Wiki is found in ant and bee venom. That said, it's an acid that's hard on your skin and lungs, but I presume you didn't stand over the pad and take deep breath! 

It worked very well for my mites this fall!

Natalie


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## Choodles (Jun 2, 2010)

Natalie-
I'm not saying I'll never use the stuff again. However, I probably won't use it without the suggested PPE. Being a cheapskate without a respirator, it'll be a while. 

What I will do: go back to what I say I do, which is practice IPM. My approach will go something like:

1. Monitor for pests. I might've gotten away without treating at all- my counts weren't that bad, after doing some research. (48 hour drop was about 50, after the treatment. Dead bee count= hundreds. If I'm killing more bees than mites, I'm pretty sure I'm not making good headway) As far as I can tell, a post-treatment count of 50 is pretty low.
2. Once I see a pest, I will use the least invasive/toxic methods available.
3. If natural, cultural, and mechanical control methods aren't working, I'll step up to the softest chemical I can find. 
4. If/when natural and cultural controls work, I'm going to split those hives like no tomorrow!

I don't know whether FA is considered an organic treatment or not. I'd be willing to bet the more stringent organic certification groups wouldn't approve of synthesized FA. Formic acid can be made from CO2 and steam, or from methanol and carbon monoxide. Organic or not, I could still cause some trouble with the stuff.

Thanks for your responses. While I appreciate the efficacy of FA as a mite treatment, I'm not sure it's for me. I'm the type that can and does screw up a cup of coffee; I can all too clearly imagine the havoc I could create with a caustic chemical. 

Take care, and here's to happy (and relatively mite-free) bees all around!

Chris


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## bbbbeeman (Jan 13, 2007)

If it has that kind of effect on a person ,what does it do to the bees in the long run??????? good luck rock.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

bbbbeeman said:


> If it has that kind of effect on a person ,what does it do to the bees in the long run??????? good luck rock.


Obviously, you have a problem with the use of Formic acid. Why not just spell out your concerns in factual terms? What do you believe this acid, which naturally occurs in honey bees, will do in the long run?

Keep in mind that the physiology of bees and humans are completely different and what is harmful or healthful for one may not be so for the other. For example, a diet of honey and pollen may be perfect for young bees (larvae) but a steady diet of the same would likely result in a fast decline in human infants.

So to infer a substance may have negative effects on honey bees by noting a negative human reaction to the same material is not informative. 

Wayne


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Choodles said:


> I'm the type that can and does screw up a cup of coffee; I can all too clearly imagine the havoc I could create with a caustic chemical.





caberwife said:


> That said, it's an acid that's hard on your skin and lungs, but I presume you didn't stand over the pad and take deep breath!


Funny you should mention hands. I was using a marinade injector to pull the liquid from the bottle and squirt it into the screens I use on my applicator bottles. Right hand kept getting mad at the left and stuck the left a couple times. Just a prick. But, got some welts on the hand. Must have been the acid on the end of the needle getting under the skin. I am sure it sterilized the wound as it melted the cells.  I know I know plastic gloves to protect the hands but, I would have just punctured the plastic. That darn right hand is so aggressive.


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## bbbbeeman (Jan 13, 2007)

yes; I do have a problem with chem and acid that are used without application directions for treatments. mite-away is a formic acid that has been tested and approved for use and if directions are followed they can become a usefull tool to kill mites. but if acids and chem' are not used properly the mites build up a resistance , like the apistan strips were mis used. all lable directions should be followed.do you have food and drug approved directions for what you are doing ?good luck rock.


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

caberwife said:


> Um, are those the Mite-Away II pads? Did your mentor tell you you're supposed to wear a respirator mask, eye protection and chemical gloves when using them? I'm wondering if you knew, since you didn't have the printed instructions. Not sure if this applies to different formic acid pads.
> 
> That said, I know lots of you tough beekeepers just stand upwind and avoid splashing your eyes.  Personally I think I'll end up with lung cancer from being downwind of my smoker too often!
> 
> ...


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

kbfarms said:


> But its OK to let the bees breath this stuff in????????? The logic of this type of thinking is beyond me........


Again, please explain your concerns in terms that address the physiological differences between humans and honey bees. For example, do you feel it likely that, in their very short lifespan, a honey bee would develop cancer from smoking?

Wayne


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

EastSideBuzz said:


> So I am doing a 45 ml of %60 FA 3x 4 days per hive.


I've wrestled with buying the acid and soaking my own pads in lieu of pre-packaged. I'm small scale with between four and six hives so its a balancing act between money, cost of time, scale and risk of injury from acid.

In the US soaking your own pads can run afoul depending on whose reading the regulations. As I understand, insecticides must be applied as labeled. Since liquid formic acid isn't labeled for the purpose, even if it's used exactly as the pre-packaged product, you may become low hanging fruit for the constable.

I'm no lawyer and for me the difference isn't worth the conundrum. Now the rub. Nod Apiary Products changed over their production line to the Mite Away Quick Strip before getting complete approval export to the US and do not expect approval before spring. So as far as I know, existing stock is all that's available. Fortunately, I found a case that will hold me through fall '11.


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

waynesgarden said:


> Again, please explain your concerns in terms that address the physiological differences between humans and honey bees. For example, do you feel it likely that, in their very short lifespan, a honey bee would develop cancer from smoking?
> 
> Wayne


sheer toxicity


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

While reading through this thread I can't help but wonder how some people can poison their hives and even themselves with all this garbage(not just formic acid)and still feel good about being a beekeeper and producing a quality product. I just don't get it and probably never will I suppose. John


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> But couple of weeks later i have healthy, mite free hives with no residual chemicals, I feel good!


Healthy = Happy Dance :banana::banana::banana:


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Maybe you should read the OSHA safety data sheet on formic acid.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

kbfarms said:


> sheer toxicity



?

For whom, the human or the honey bee?

At what levels?

Wayne


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