# Carniolan/Russian Bees - Differences in Management



## Marc (May 20, 2005)

I must say the behavior of this line of bees confuses me. I usually keep what is called Italian bees. Your standard mixed bee and its behavior regarding overwintering, early spring build-up, swarm behavior and honey gathering abilities. Last year I bought two queens from Kirk Webster, who keeps a Russian-Vermont Survivor mix of bees. Just to be clear, I think the world of him and his work, so I was eager to get my hands on some of his stock.

His bees look darker than my bees, but seemed not that much different initially. They overwintered in one deep only with a very small cluster and it seemed they almost didn't touch their stores. In spring their brood nest size kept staying small compared to my other hives. Mindful of what I have read about the sudden buildup and the propensity to swarm I gave them a lot of space, in this case a second deep and a super, both drawn. Well, to make a long story short, they still swarmed on me, more than once, very little extra honey, but they did fill the second super with brood and than with nectar, since they had no queen due to swarming. 

Ok, I figured they swarmed themselves into a much smaller bee population, so maybe now they would get with it. So I waited for another month and was promptly rewarded with another swarm and two frames with about 30 swarm cells (no kidding) left behind in the hive. At this point it is now mid July, we haven't had rain in a month and our flow has stopped. With it my hopes of getting any honey from this hive. 

So what do I need to do differently with this line of bees to stop them from excessive swarming? What do you guys do that work with Russian/ Carniolan bees? What's the secret of keeping them in their hive and productive versus in the trees and constantly being reset by swarming?


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

There is no problem with Carniolian bees. They work very similiar to Italians. Now the Russian bees are an entirely different animal. The swarm themselves to death. The beekeeping industry has been sold a bad set of goods with the Russian bee. Even in Russia the Primorski bees are considered trash can bees. Yes, they are resistant to mites. But you have to keep Russian only bees in your bee yard for the mite resistance to work. No they are not productive for honey production-just because they swarm for no reason. The constant swarming prevents population build up that is needed for honey production. My recommendation to you is go back to a pure Carni or Italian if you want to produce honey. TK


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Don't buy Russian queens if you can not manage them.

Let me give you a little history of Russian Primorsky bees. They were developed by the NEE organization in Primorsky. The bee was developed through artificial insemination. German dark queens were used and bred with gray Caucasian drones. Resulting breed was a hardy gentle bee. The bees in Russia don't swarm as much as here in the U.S. Wonder why...


My Carniolans only swarm when they have no room. You should consider them...


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## stajerc61 (Nov 17, 2009)

Would you guys please direct me to the source of "pure" Carniolans in the U.S.A. I do not know of any so your help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


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## Jeff G (May 12, 2010)

Try Honey Run Apiaries. Tim focuses on Carnis and I am very happy with what I have from him.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Rak, 
I would be very interested in knowing what your source of information is, because my sources tell an entirely differient story
As far as the swarming of the Russians, I now have Russian hybrids, which is 6-9 generations from pure and they still swarm. So good luck!


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## Katharina (May 2, 2011)

I did get mine from Koehnen and they are doing great. Koehnen is still selling queens at this point.
http://www.koehnen.com


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

If you want pure Carniolans order the KARNICA from Honey Rustlin farms...

Valleyman, I will send you the source once I relocate it...
My source is Russian but you could translate it.


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## Marc (May 20, 2005)

My OP was not intended to start a fight about the qualities of Russians over others, nor of the availability of Carniolan queens in this country. Can we please get back to my question regarding different management styles and approaches to bees that have Russian influences? I know there are beekeepers who keep bees with a good part of Russian mixed in and that do make honey crops with them. I was wondering if any of you could share what specifically you do to keep them from swarming and to focus their considerable energies on making honey. Thanks all for getting back the original subject.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Marc, I have had several hundred Russian colonies before. Thank God, I do not have any more of them nor do I want anymore of them. They are not the bee for the Southeast US. TK


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## sevenmmm (Mar 5, 2011)

Marc said:


> My OP was not intended to start a fight about the qualities of Russians over others, Thanks all for getting back the original subject.


I am wondering why some posts get deleted for being off topic, or personal beef, or whatever, and then some are allowed to take the thread where ever...


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## Kazzandra (Jul 7, 2010)

Would love to hear from someone on this. Currently there seems to be no one frequenting this forum that owns and/or likes Russians (besides myself and sevenmmm). Yet they are currently considered a major breed. Other people out there have to have them and manage them. 

That, or people _had_ them and managed them, but now they are all living in trees.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Katharina, Are you saying you have Carnis or Russians from Koehnen?


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

sevenmmm said:


> I am wondering why some posts get deleted for being off topic, or personal beef, or whatever, and then some are allowed to take the thread where ever...


Most of us on here are wondering how you get by with posts like this that has nothing to do with the subject, as well as your personal attacks on others.
Marc,
I have no experience with NWC, but have had experience with pure Russians as well as the Russian hybrids. If I may interject another observation of mine and that is the people on here that have been keeping bees for several years are the ones that don't like the Russians. The 2 that do are first year beekeepers. Go figure! I sure wish I had went with the NWCs. It would have saved me tons of money and problems.


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## slickbrightspear (Jan 9, 2009)

to keep russians from swarming in the spring pull out about 3 or 4 frames of honey from around the brood nest and replace them with empty(drawn frames if you have them) frames make them expand the brood nest to get close to the honey move those frames up into a second or if they are in two deeps a third deep giving them plenty of room.


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## MeriB (Mar 15, 2010)

This is my first year with 2 good Russian Hybrid hives ( my 1st 2 last year died due to newbee mistakes and poorly bred Queens) My bees are gentle and building up very strongly. While I have had a lot of cups, I have only had larvae in 2 which I have removed without problems. I check them weekly. When they need a new box, I have put frames from the other boxes in the new one with several empty frames. I replaced the frames I removed with random frames of foundation and comb scattered in the boxes. last week i removed five frames from my strongest hive and placed them in a nuc. There is a queen cell in it now.
From what I have been told, you have to keep on top of the Russians. if you check them rarely, they will swarm.


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## Marc (May 20, 2005)

Thanks for your constructive comments regarding management techniques. From what you say, and from what I have read elsewhere it seems that simply providing empty space above is not enough to dissuade them from swarming. I have heard of that technique where you need to keep the brood nest small by removing frames with brood until you let them build up for the honey flow. It sounds like timing is more critical with them then with other breeds of bees. I would also question if even a weekly inspection is enough, as in my case they swarmed within a time period of about six to seven days after the last check (and while I was gone for one week).


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## slickbrightspear (Jan 9, 2009)

the big thing is to open up the brood nest there have been times when I checkerboarded the whole brood nest pulled all the honey and put it above the brood and put open frames spaced thru the whole broodnest.


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## Kazzandra (Jul 7, 2010)

slickbrightspear said:


> the big thing is to open up the brood nest there have been times when I checkerboarded the whole brood nest pulled all the honey and put it above the brood and put open frames spaced thru the whole broodnest.


Cool-- I do that anyway kind of intuitively to help build up drawn comb stocks.

I like to check my Russians weekly, but my Russians don't like for me to check weekly. XD


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

hello i have kept Russian/Carniolan for 3 years now.I am using no foundation i checker board them all the time i like to keep one empty frame undrawn in the middle.Also helps when you see them start to beard. time to mess with them something to do with extra bees hanging out in the front.also i split them at least 2 weeks earlier than my other bees.that's in march still snow here keeps swarming off till may. April for others carnies and nwc also i like to let them swarm at least once helps keep mites down


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

REcently a club member stated that Russian bees are the same as Carniolan bees. 

This comes as a surprise, given I have seen hives of Russian bees, which were very black pigmented bees. Carni's are more grey and brown. My understanding was they are entirely separate subspecies of honey bees, although they have hybridized in areas hosting both subspecies ie. in my area, which hosts Italian, Carniolan AND Russians among local colonies.

Could someone with expertise comment on the statement made that Russians and Carniolans are the same bee subspecies?


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## WesternWilson (Jul 18, 2012)

sorry, accidental double posting removed


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

When I had a hive go queenless back in July, I introduced a Russian hybrid I bought from Kelly. She was accepted and did a great job laying. I kept plenty of open drawn comb available and pulled two splits from this hive back at the beginning of Sept. They still swarmed this past month. I think the correct management technique may be to create artificial swarms every few months. Then introduce another strain into the split.


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

I am 60 miles SW of you here in Indiana. I will stay on post and say I simply gave up on Russians and the crosses. First yr Russian crosses did fine , next yr and so on not good. I will stick with the Italians and Carnis 

regards
Brad


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