# Beginners: Frames, Discussion about Mann Lake's PF-100, PF-120



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I have heard a lot of good things of Mann Lake's small cell plastic frames and I wanted to let Freshman treatment free beekeepers know that they are available. I also am thinking of giving them the old college try myself and have a few questions for any with experience here in the small cell crowd. This could be a very useful discussion for those seeking to start treatment free.

My first question is if the wax can be melted off of them and the frames reused without the plastic being warped or ruined?

What about the PF-105 and PF-125 black plastic frames? What color is best?

Economics, are they worth it? Wooden frames are around $0.70 and small cell foundation is about $1. Add wire, eyelets or staples, nails, and time, and it seems that at the 50+ bulk rate, the plastic ones are even money. Add to that future replacement of foundation after wax processing and it gets even better.

Can the end bars be trimmed to 1 1/4" for narrow frame beekeeping?

And finally, are plastic frames legitimate for use among treatment free beekeepers?


----------



## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

I started using PF120s last year on about a dozen hives and half a dozen overwintered nucs. I am running all mediums now hence the 120s. Each hive is not 100%, but is mixed in at 50 to 75%, with some foundationless, and a small number of HSC, which was used on two hives exclusively. 

As Michael Bush has said, the bees draw them real well. I have not had any fin comb like I have seen on some Pierco plastic. They take to them real fast with no perceptible delay or breakin period. The HSC on the other hand has a very slow acceptance rate. They will use it, but they definitely don't like it at first.

Where I have used small cell foundation, some bees will not draw it correctly the first time, the PF120s are nearly always perfect.

I just got another order of 210 to add to the 140 already in the garage. I will be using it to start 10 packages in a couple of weeks and also on the splits for overwintered nucs starting in June.

I like it because the bees like it, not to mention, the price is right.

Richard


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

My bees have drawn them out very well...

WFS, you answered the financial question... I think. 

I have heated HSC prior to dipping in wax; I have never heated my PF-120's. 

I would simply scrape the comb off and return the frame to the hive. 

I'm in the process of cutting all of my frames down to 1 1/4" width. I will be cutting my first PF-120's this week. If they run through the saw as easily as Honey Super Cell I'll be pleased.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

We look forward to an update.


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

WiredForStereo said:


> We look forward to an update.


To avoid unnecessary suspense here are some previous postings on the topic of "cutting" "pf-120"

http://www.beesource.com/search-res...g+pf-120&sa=Search&siteurl=www.beesource.com/


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>My first question is if the wax can be melted off of them and the frames reused without the plastic being warped or ruined?

I never tried. But the coating is quite thin so there is not much wax there.

>What about the PF-105 and PF-125 black plastic frames? What color is best?

There is no light in the hive... the bees can't see what color it is... but you might find eggs easier in the black and see the color of the honey better with the white... I only have white.

>Economics, are they worth it? Wooden frames are around $0.70 and small cell foundation is about $1. Add wire, eyelets or staples, nails, and time, and it seems that at the 50+ bulk rate, the plastic ones are even money. Add to that future replacement of foundation after wax processing and it gets even better.

I bought mine in quantity (I think I have about 3,000 now) and the price seems to have gone up, but I paid less than a dollar a piece for mediums and I don't have to assemble them. Well worth it to me.

>Can the end bars be trimmed to 1 1/4" for narrow frame beekeeping?

I have not tried. However I've been putting a permacomb in the center so I can get 9 in an eight frame box... the permacomb has no spacer. If I were to attempt it, I would use a sander, I think.

>And finally, are plastic frames legitimate for use among treatment free beekeepers? 

The draft "organic" standards don't allow them. It's not a treatment.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Mr. Bush,

What I meant by melting was in processing an old frame for reuse. I have a big stainless steel tank I heat up with the burner from a deep fryer and then use it to melt the frames out for rehabilitation. It doesn't boil, but I wanted to make sure it wouldn't cause problems.


----------



## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

I've had about 300 medium and 100 deep PF120s in hives for over 3 years. Some (10% or so), especially the deeps, have warped/bowed to some extent and have become unusable. I havn't found a good way to get them clean enough (by my standards) to re-wax and re-use. The crevices along the sides and top make perfect hideouts for SHB. The bees accept and draw them ok compared to other plastic, but still prefer wood frames with foundation or without foundation (which is most preferred). Given all of this, if I can get them refurbished well enough, I'll re-use the PF120s because of the investment, but will otherwise go to all natural cell.


----------



## iwombat (Feb 3, 2009)

I'm almost exclusively PF-series for brood these days (still migrating some frames here and there). The bees take to them well. I run the black for brood, and use rite-cell 5.4 in wood frames in the honey supers.

I have healthy bees and great honey crops.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What I meant by melting was in processing an old frame for reuse. I have a big stainless steel tank I heat up with the burner from a deep fryer and then use it to melt the frames out for rehabilitation. It doesn't boil, but I wanted to make sure it wouldn't cause problems. 

I have not tried heating them. I have dipped the HSC and the PermaComb in 212 F wax with no issues, but that is entirely different plastic. My guess is that the styrene (which is what it appears to be) probably won't tolerate heat very well. But that is a guess.

As far as warping, they do warp some. That's one of the reasons I've gone to putting a permacomb in the center to get nine in the box. They don't have much room to warp then.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I pulled the trigger and bought 100 PF-105 (black plastic deeps). I'll report on how well they work.

I will say this though, I'm pretty sure Mann Lake is losing money on this deal due to their free shipping policy. A hundred fully assembled frames makes for a voluminous shipping order.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

PF-105's came by mail today. They have a cell size of about 4.95mm. They are wax sprayed not dipped. The top bars are one inch wide, and the end bars seem suitable for trimming for narrow frame beekeeping. I will try to do so with a few frames and see how it works out with my table saw.

I was disappointed in the lateral rigidity. It seems when prying with a hive tool, it would be futile to pry anywhere but near the end bars. The frame bends pretty easily in the middle.

I'll be placing a few in a hive on Saturday.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Solomon Parker said:


> I was disappointed in the lateral rigidity. It seems when prying with a hive tool, it would be futile to pry anywhere but near the end bars. The frame bends pretty easily in the middle.


For once we agree on something Sol! It's another little beef I have with plastic frames. Harder to work, once the hive gets gummed up.

BTW I prefer your new handle, good move. Now I can call you Sol & people should be able to figure out who I mean!


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I trimmed a set of 40 to 1 1/4" this afternoon. It worked quite well, no melting plastic. I used a 46 tooth DeWalt 10" blade on my table saw. They are not quite 1 3/8" to begin with. Also, the top bars are just shy of normal as well. So, there is still bee space readily available between adjacent top bars. Beside a few nicks (on the frames, not me) everything went swimmingly. 

The only problem is that I bought 10 boxes worth, and now I only have nine. 
I'll have pictures up on my blog tomorrow night or so.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Good to know. I'd been contemplating cutting mine down but have not had the time to even think about it.


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I used a 7 1/4" 60 T blade to cut mine and there was no chipping that I noticed.

This latest batch of frame trimming involved used frames from a few deadouts. I saved time by scraping the propolis from just one side of the frames, and running that side along the saw fence when making the first cuts.

I didn't take any pictures of the mess but it was impressive.

Some comb trimming will be necessary before some frames can be used.


----------

