# Poor Boy's Electric Embedder (need advice, pls!)



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I clip a wire lead to each end of the wax wire in the frame, and clip the end of one to the pos post on car battery, and just tap the other one on the neg post of car battery a couple times. This embeds the piano wire into the wax foundation nicely. 
Of course it is nicer to have a setup that can be used while sitting at a work bench. The car battery is 12 volts at over 500amps and it is over kill.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Get a 12 volt car battery and a charger. Find a couple of tail lights from a car. Put the charger across the battery. Run a wire from one post of the battery to all of the lights, and then to a probe. Another probe goes to the other post of the battery. Add or subtract lights to get the right current. Push the wire into the wax with the probes.

Roland


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

A 6 volt battery works just fine, as you described. A battery charger will not work, because modern ones have safety devices in them that prevent them from releasing electricity unless there is a battery being charged.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

A small battery is not going to work because it lacks the amperage to last. The car battery has a bunch of amperage and will have to be run through light bulbs to drop the current down. You will also be tired to a heavy car battery or a car.

This is what I did. Look for a 2 or 3 amp 12 volt transformer or buy one at Radio Shack. It is a stock item. http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102702 If you are going to find a junk transformer I would recommend you go by Radio Shack to get an idea of the physical size of the transformer you are looking for. 

Most transformers of this size are what are center tapped and thus have 5 wires. 12 and 6 volts. The side with two wires is the side you connect to the wall plug. The other side is the output. Two wires will likely be the same color. The voltage will likely be 12 volts. The odd color wire is the center tap wire. The voltage between that wire and one of the other wire will be half of the two wires of the the same color. Which one to use? Try the two of the same color first. If you find you have too much power then switch one of the wires to the odd color wire.

Now collect the following:
1. Wire
2. Board the size of the top bar of a frame. I use the top bar of a frame.
3. Soup can or some other heavy tin can. A coke can is to thin.
4. Card board

Cut four 1 by 2 inch rectangles out of the tin can. Bend the rectangles into the shape of an "L" and mount on the board. Your board should look like this.

..L..........L..........L..........L..
####################

L = L shape piece of tin
# = board 
. = space

Connect your transformer to the two outside L. The inner two L are just to push the wire down into the foundation. 

Cut three or four sheets of card board so it is smaller than the inside of the frame.

To use the embedder put the frame with wax on top of the card board, wire side up. The card board will support the wax and wires. Press the L shape tin brackets down on the wire. The wire will heat up and melt into the wax foundation. 

It is the quickest way to embed wire into wax foundation. 

Good luck.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Electric Embedder*

The embedder boards contain a door bell transformer. You could pick one up at any hardware store.

Regards,
Ernie


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Do like I did.

Destroy a hundred dollars plus in foundation trying to get junk to work, then get the kelley embedder and transformer and use it for many years.


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## Beaver Dam (May 27, 2008)

Aw Idd, Don't ruin the fun. Just think of all the laughs that can come from expiermentation.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

25 volt transformer at Radio Shack and a light dimmer from the hardware store. Works great.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

iddee said:


> Do like I did.
> 
> Destroy a hundred dollars plus in foundation trying to get junk to work, then get the kelley embedder and transformer and use it for many years.


A Kelly embedder per the kelly web site:

$23.00 Electric Embedder
$29.00 Transformer in box
$52.00 Total cost plus shipping

Or

Poor Boy's Electric Embedder:
Free or $10.49 if you have to buy the transformer.
Here is a good picture of the working end of the tool. you can make a switch from the tin can. This one uses smashed copper tubing instead of L shaped tin. http://www.beehivesupplies.com/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=133

Just because you make it doesn't mean it is junk and will waste lots of foundation perfecting it. I made my embedder and didn't wast any foundation.

A number of products that Kelly sells in nothing more than off the shelf products that are cobbled together. This is the type of thing beekeepers were doing long time ago. Take a look at their bee vacuum for $198. It is nothing more than the top of a shop vac. It could be made for free if you keep your eye out on trash day. The Poor Boy's Bee Vac!
http://go.netgrab.com/secure/kelleystore/asp/product.asp?product=246

Sure it would be worth purchasing if you had more money than time, but I think most beekeepers have more time than money.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*and a light dimmer*

Ross, that light dimmer is a very good addition!

Ernie


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

It let's you tune it in to the heat you need.


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

I use an aurora model motoring DC power pack from the race car set I received for Christmas as a kid. It's 12 V DC, 20 V DC max. Works great for me. Before it, I used a train set transformer.


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Beaver Dam said:


> Aw Idd, Don't ruin the fun. Just think of all the laughs that can come from expiermentation.


Why do I get the strange feeling I am providing entertainment for you guys


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

I hate, hate, hate putting frames together. So after using my car battery charger for a couple of years I decided to purchase 4 embedders from Kelley. I then built four wiring jigs. The idea was that my family could help. Let's just say that one of my spools of wire has a lot less wire on it than the other three. I do prefer the simplicity of the Kelley embedder over the battery charger.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I bought the Kelley setup except for the foundation board and the crimpers which I got from Brushy Mt. I bought the embedder and the transformer etc. from Kelley. It just seemed like it was easier than all the experimentation. I also reworked the embedder and the crimpers a bit. But now that I'm doing foundationless, they are all collecting dust...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmisc.htm#wiringtools


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

>>>>But now that I'm doing foundationless, they are all collecting dust...<<<<

I will gladly send you my address if you want me to keep them dusted for you.


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## J-Bees (Jul 12, 2008)

iddee said:


> >>>>But now that I'm doing foundationless, they are all collecting dust...<<<<
> 
> I will gladly send you my address if you want me to keep them dusted for you.



but U already have one IDDEE :}:}


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

But HVH has 4 of them. I'm jealous. I want another one.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Maybe make Michael or HVH an offer, could be cheaper than building one.


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## Ishi (Sep 27, 2005)

Go to a Heating and Air Conditioning company and ask for a transformer from an old unit they are throwing away. They are usually 24 V and most likely free. Get 2 for 1 might not be any good.


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## Docking (Mar 13, 2008)

Does using an electric embedder do a better job than using the spur?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Does using an electric embedder do a better job than using the spur?

Yes.


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## pembroke (Apr 17, 2006)

Please don't think I'm stupid but..... Why do you use embedder. Are you extracting honey from deeps? I have 7 hives running two deeps on them for brood. They have built brood comb over the wires beautifully without embedding the wires. Just trying to understand. Thanks. Pembroke


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

pembroke said:


> Please don't think I'm stupid but..... Why do you use embedder. Are you extracting honey from deeps? I have 7 hives running two deeps on them for brood. They have built brood comb over the wires beautifully without embedding the wires. Just trying to understand. Thanks. Pembroke


If you don't think I'm stupid, I certainly won't think you are :thumbsup:

You ask a very good question, and the best way I can answer it is that if you (I really mean "I") don't embed, there is a percentage of cells (very small) that is unusable for brood. I have some non-embedded foundation with comb started, and the queen can't lay in those cells in which the cross wires invade. Is it a big deal...not really. But there's that nagging perfectionist part of me that wants to do everything right and be as non-invasive from nature's perspective as possible. What's the advantage of cross-wiring? To me it's simple, to ensure as straight alignment of comb as possible to preserve inetgrity of beespace later on. What's advantage of embedding cross-wires? To place the hair thin wire inside the hair thin margin of the wax foundation as much as possible. Will the wire fit completely within the foundation? Not well, because the foundation is contoured hexagonally and the wire is straight. I don't want deformed brood and pupae because the wire interfered with space inside the cell. Hope that helps explain it.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

If they draw it out quickly, the embedding isn't necessary.

First time you have a few days in the 90's and it hasn't been started, the foundation will sag, twist, flop and fold. You will then wish you had embedded.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

IMO the only real use for embedding is holding the foundation until they draw it. Once they draw it it doesn't require wires. Before they draw it it will sag and even fall out without some kind of support if it takes too long for the bees to draw it or it gets too hot. Once you have drawn brood comb the cocoons make it very strong. Once you have drawn honey comb and the wax has aged a little, it's pretty strong.


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## okb (Apr 16, 2007)

Ishi said:


> Go to a Heating and Air Conditioning company and ask for a transformer from an old unit they are throwing away. They are usually 24 V and most likely free. Get 2 for 1 might not be any good.




24 volt transformer will melt thru, or has on me.
I use a 240 volt primary and 24 volt secondary with the primary hooked to 110Volts ending with 12 volt secondary. Works perfect for me. Also has a thumb switch to remove power without removing pressure from the wires till they set.

Totol cost bout $1.50 for the 2x4 electrical box and metal cover on it.

Have pics if interested. Let me know.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

OKB why don't you post the pictures.


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## Kiwi Will (Feb 1, 2009)

*Fixin' wax to wire in the frames. It worked all honky-dory!*

Hey, I'm new to all this also and I've just tried the 12 volt car battery way today(actually a tractor battery that had just been charged). I had 20 frames to make, wire up and then to melt a wax sheet on them all. It worked out perfect! :applause: :applause:

1) I made up the wooden frames.

2) I ran the wire through the holes that were pre drilled in the Pine frames.

3) Used staple gun and attached one end but stapling over the wire then bending it over 180 degrees the staple and stapling it again and then bending it back again & snipping it off.

4) Hand pulling it as tight as I could, then grasping the next wire then again & doing the final 3rd wire & attaching it like the other end.

5) Laid sheet of wax on wires and slipped it into the top of the frames slot.

6) Made sure frame was still square.

7) I placed a small note book on the centre of the sheet to ensure that contact was more likely

8) I held (by hand) one of the insulated leads (which has a probe on them) from battery post, on one of the three wires and prepared to tap the other lead from other battery post against the same wire.

9) I tapped the wire and noticed the wax move slightly (sag) I did this twice but mostly 3 times. The tapping was about the same length of time or contact or duration of contact as using the keys on this computers key board. VERY tiny sparks happened at the touch.

10) EUREKA ! Cool ! VERY COOL ! !  It's all done and NOT ONE wasted wax sheet ! :applause:

I'm so pleased and thank you guys who added your ideas to this web site for me to get ideas from which encouraged me to "give it a bash".
Cheers muchly


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## Ruben (Feb 11, 2006)

I rig up some wires to the + and - of a car battery and put one on the frame wire to the left of the frame and take the other and strike it across the wire on the right like I was striking a match and it melts it in perfect, just takes a strike too long will cut through the foundation. Don't laugh it works for me


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## broodhead (May 30, 2009)

BEES4U is correct, a door bell transformer with 12 volt 1.6 A output will do just fine . You can also wire in a switch to turn the current on and off, which cost a couple of bucks. You can get all this at surplus electronic stores or any old doorbell assembly. If you spend more than 10 bucks for all this you are paying too much. Broodhead


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