# Snake oil ?



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Anything that starts off w/ "Saving the Bee"? Snakeoil. Read no further.


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## Bee Whisperer (Mar 24, 2013)

Oooo, pretty pessimistic sqkcrk. 

In 1952, a German scientist, W.O Schumann, proposed a pulsing, or a "heartbeat" of the earth. It is said that both NASA astronauts and Russian cosmonauts complained of health problems when they were outside of the Earth's magnetic field for long. What happened was, they no longer were exposed to the Schumann resonances. The solution was to use artificially generated Schumann, or "Earth Grounding" or "Earth Tuned" Frequencies. By 1974 Ludwig, another German scientist, had designed the first Schumann Resonance products for use in space crafts. Schumann resonances are the principal background in the electromagnetic spectrum beginning at 3 Hz and extend to 60 Hz, and appear as distinct peaks at extremely low frequencies (ELF) around 7.83 (fundamental),14.3, 20.8, 27.3 and 33.8 Hz.

The best and simplest example of Tuning Element Technology can be demonstrated with two tuning forks of the same frequency. If the first one is held silent, unmoving, and untouched, and the second one is struck, the first tuning fork will begin to resonate, hum, or "sing" in harmony and balance with the one which has actually been struck. One acts as that necessary outside "reference point." This characteristic is described as resonance.

Georges Lakhovsky, a Russian engineer, has correctly theorized that all living cells have three things in common which typically are associated with electronic circuitry. These characteristics include resistance, capacitance, and inductance. . These characteristics, when functioning correctly, will allow the cells to resonate without dissonance, "reference point" from an outside source, a tuning element for them to "listen" to.

This information comes from Tuning Element and from Wikipedia, but you can find much more evidence based information and testimony on line. There are, however, many crackpots that seek to use this info inappropriately. 

Myself; I will experiment on my own to see if this really works for bees. Heaven knows I have experienced enough black mold in the syrup feeders.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So it wasn't the radiation exposure? Huh, whataya know.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Anyone thinking of sending money to these folks should read their "disclaimer" first:


> Your body alone is responsible for increasing and maintaining your health and well being. Night Hawk Minerals, LLC, its associates and affiliated practitioners[HIGHLIGHT] make no claims as to what effect if any will result from the use of our stones, packs or other natural products. [/HIGHLIGHT]They have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug administration and are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, mitigate or prevent any disease. No guarantees of any specific outcome are expressed or implied. The level of radiation in every item we sell has been tested and determined to be not harmful to human health.
> http://www.nighthawkminerals.com/disclaimer.html


In other words, everything they said elsewhere on their website is just "fluff".


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Wow. :lpf:


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## Rxmaker (Jul 6, 2011)

Being a chemist and pharmacist, i predict that the only thing radiating or resonating will be his bank account.


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## Bee Whisperer (Mar 24, 2013)

Always ask for the actual studies and their assessments of the studies. Don't send money unless you don't care if you waste it. There may be some truth to it, but until they can offer true evidenced based research, it is just a big "if."


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## Rxmaker (Jul 6, 2011)

I think we should put our old "Mood Rings" in a hive this spring and see what happens. Maybe if the girls are in the mood they will make 200 pounds per hive.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I thought all you guys had to learn in five years of school was how to count to thirty:<} Has winter returned to the warm side of the mountains? It was 49 when I got up and it is 12 now and snowing. Are your bees wintering well?


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## Bee Whisperer (Mar 24, 2013)

Haha, yeah, I remember those from , , , the 70's?


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

I wonder how the bees did so well before varroa and pesticide/acaracide poisoning without people tweaking their resonances.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

Ya but if you read he said the hive swarmed like 4 times and made 200 pounds of honey that's BS.
I sent him a e.mail to see if he has proof of this great level one stone and it's power to make level one bees


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

There was no conclusive data or even conclusive observation of how this was carried out. For all we know, the 200 lbs of honey was placed on top of the hive, that had swarmed multiple times, after this was all said and done. A drop of bleach in sugar water will not allow mold to grow, and it won't kill bees either, I have tried it. I would actually bet that there are no lies to this at all, it's just a question of whether everything is being explained. I wonder if a prayer rag comes with the stones? :scratch:


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

We can get stones free here.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I'll bet your _free _stones don't have the "right frequencies".


> The main things we have observed over the years working with these frequencies from the stones, is that it never does the wrong thing, It always makes the right move, and over time, it will always prevail over destructive frequencies. Our Doctor calls it "God's Breath". One important thing we noticed also, is that the frequencies use oxygen for fuel.
> 
> http://www.nighthawkminerals.com/savingthebee.html


The stones around here just lie around all day - even on a hill. :no: They should at least do some "_rolling_"!
:lpf::lookout: 



Those _Nighthawk _stones are quite special. They use oxygen for fuel! 

:ws: :bus :digging:


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## BeeGora (Oct 22, 2013)

They probably also sell those kits to make your car run off the hydrogen in water instead of using gasoline.


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

So, if this is right, wherever they mine those stones should be a bee Nirvana, right? I mean a whole mine of properly resonating stones? All beehives swarming 4 times and making 200 lbs of honey per hive? Serous production like this will be noticeable in the average honey production surveys by USDA, for example?

Also, from the article:


> But after working with natural radioactive ores that we mine in a hands on capacity, we have been able to validate that it is actually the FREQUENCIES that these stones emit which is producing these miracles we have witnessed


Notice, these stones are *radioactive* aka, they "emit frequencies". Also, the honey also carries frequencies aka it is also radioactive:



> This hive now has already produced over 200 pounds of honey this year and the honey is extremely healthy. It carries the frequencies also!


Anyone up for a spoon of glow-in-the-dark honey?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> I'll bet your _free _stones don't have the "right frequencies".
> 
> 
> The stones around here just lie around all day - even on a hill. :no: They should at least do some "_rolling_"!
> ...


A new life form? Isn't the use of oxygen as a fuel one of the indicators that something is alive? Do these rocks also reproduce? How so, like amoebas?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Rxmaker said:


> I think we should put our old "Mood Rings" in a hive this spring and see what happens.


I use my magic 8ball!


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

But there is more evidence. 

http://modernsurvivalblog.com/natural-disasters/the-honeybee-varroa-vibration-and-ccd/

You people are so close minded.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

Nabber86 said:


> But there is more evidence.
> 
> http://modernsurvivalblog.com/natural-disasters/the-honeybee-varroa-vibration-and-ccd/
> 
> You people are so close minded.


There is a difference between not being closed minded and being so open minded your brains fall out.

This is all a bunch of new age nonsense with absolutely no evidence of any kind supporting it.

The *GLARING* factual errors in the OP's link about radiation is just so horrendously wrong to anyone that knows the first thing about actual biology as to be laughable.

The information in the one you provided is no better.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Please enjoy reading and [HIGHLIGHT]realise honeybees have been dying for centuries.[/HIGHLIGHT]
> 
> (quoted from the link by _Nabber86_)


!!! :doh:!!!:doh:

So have _humans_, but somehow we still have more than before!

:lpf: :scratch: :lookout: :s


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Edymnion said:


> There is a difference between not being closed minded and being so open minded your brains fall out.
> 
> This is all a bunch of new age nonsense with absolutely no evidence of any kind supporting it.
> 
> ...


But the sarcasm w/ which he presents it is entertaining.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> But the sarcasm w/ which he presents it is entertaining.


Sorry, I just really, really, REALLY despise these people. Scamming idiots out of their hard earned money.

My personal favorite to date was one I saw on Amazon, they were "EMF Blockers". Had this whole big buildup about how electric appliances ranging from your TV to your refrigerator emit these harmful electromagnetic fields that cause headaches and gingivitis and I dunno what all else. Luckily they had these EMF Blockers! they could sell you. They were little holographic print stickers about the size of your thumb. They claimed that just one sticker on any electric device would totally nullify the EMF they generated, and they were only like $15 for a sheet of three!

Oh I left a scathing review on that one about how nothing the size of a nickle could block the EMFs from a 40 inch television. There was even some guy on there saying he took an actual EMF reader to it before and after but couldn't detect any different, but said he must have been doing it wrong and that this was a great product, 5 stars! I was of course downrated into oblivion with everybody saying I must be working for everybody from big pharmaceutical to the government.

Its bad enough there are people out there dumb enough to actually believe this nonsense, but the people perpetuating it deserve to be shot. Maybe not fatally, but still shot.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Still available on Amazon:


> *Aulterra the EMF Neutralizer*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:kn::lpf:

Look, since its over $25, it qualifies for FREE SHIPPING!

what was it P.T. Barnum said ...


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

I really wish I did not click on Rader's link. Here is a gem:



> Unfortunately the error is that the Neutralizer does NOT eliminate EMFs (electromagnetic frequencies) at all! No, it neutralizes them. So, an EMF detector will not and can not show a change between readings taken before and then after application of the device (the Neutralizer).


This is from the review titled "Why EMF detectors do not reveal changes when using the Neutralizer". So, I obviously I never thought that when a bomb squad "neutralizes" a bomb, you cannot detect a difference, lol.

:lpf:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Edymnion said:


> Sorry, I just really, really, REALLY despise these people. Scamming idiots out of their hard earned money.
> 
> Its bad enough there are people out there dumb enough to actually believe this nonsense, but the people perpetuating it deserve to be shot. Maybe not fatally, but still shot.


Ever hear of P.T.Barnum? He's known for saying one thing in particular. "There's a sucker born every minute." And someone else said, "A fool and his money will soon be parted." Carpe dium, "buyer beware", comes to mind. 

Whatcha gonna do? Save people from themselves? Just keep exposing the truth. It's up to others to hear it.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Still available on Amazon:
> 
> 
> :kn::lpf:
> ...


Ha, thats the very product!

Looks like they relisted it or something, as I don't see my review on it.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Carpe diem is Seize the day. Caveat emptor is let the buyer beware. Non Gratis Anus Rodentum is---well, nevermind.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Ever hear of P.T.Barnum? He's known for saying one thing in particular. "There's a sucker born every minute." And someone else said, "A fool and his money will soon be parted." Carpe dium, "buyer beware", comes to mind.
> 
> Whatcha gonna do? Save people from themselves? Just keep exposing the truth. It's up to others to hear it.


True, but that doesn't mean con artists should be allowed to ply their trade with impunity.

But hey, I'm of the opinion that anything that makes any kind of medical claim at all needs to go through FDA testing and approval. Just because you label it as an herbal substitute that doesn't have to be reviewed doesn't mean you can suddenly start saying it cures cancer. My rule of thumb is if anything makes a medical claim and then has a disclaimer saying it isn't intended to diagnose or treat any medical condition, then it is a complete sham product and should be avoided.

And for the record, snake oil started out being a legitimate product. Chinese immigrant workers used snake oil for a pain reliever. Thing is, they were using oil made from a snake native to China that they brought with them (brought the oil, that is). The active ingredient in it (forgot exactly what it was) isn't found in American species. So there was a legit start to it that became a scam because at first the locals just didn't know there was a difference. Then it moved on to being synonymous with scam when they realized the difference and just didn't care.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

Here's another good one:
http://www.amazon.com/Quantum-Pendant-Scalar-Energy-Negative/dp/B004OGZ8BC/ref=pd_sim_hpc_4

It has 4500 negative ions in it that just totally negate background radiation by using japanese lava minerals fused at a molecular level to that produces scalar energy that enhances the body's bio-field!

My background in science has trouble reading this because I actually know what these words mean, and they have nothing to do with anything. 4.5k negative ions huh? An ion is an atom with an electric charge, so they packed exacty 4,500 atoms into this thing? Scalar energy? Temperature is scalar energy, it just means that at a given value, there is only a singular thing it can be. If the temperature of a block of ice is 32 degrees, then the amount of thermal energy in that block can be calculated as a single number.

Its all just gibberish dressed up to sound pretty to untrained ears. Star Trek had better technobabble than these people.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Vance G said:


> Carpe diem is Seize the day. Caveat emptor is let the buyer beware. Non Gratis Anus Rodentum is---well, nevermind.


Ha, ha, ha. when I am wrong I am really wrong. Thanks for clearing that up Vance. Yo rodentum Anus et non tu Gratis too. lol


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> But the sarcasm w/ which he presents it is entertaining.


/s http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=/s

Glad somebody caught that.


My theory on modern snake oil is this:

Back in the 19[SUP]th[/SUP] century when the industrial revolution started, technology advanced faster than the average person’s intelligence to understand the technology. Radio waves, telegraph, and chemistry – these things might as well have been magic to most people. Since there were magical things happening all around that people did not understand, why wouldn’t people think that an elixir made of strychnine and opium would cure baldness? At was all magic to them. 

Snake oil never has (and never will) go away but by the middle 20[SUP]th[/SUP] century, the education level in the US had increased and the ratio of technology advances to _understanding_ the technology was increasing. Most people had some idea of how a telephone and a TV worked. Even if it was only a rudimentary understanding, most people didn’t think it was magic. Thus the amount of snake oil being sold dropped.

Fast forward to the advent of the internet in the late 20[SUP]th[/SUP] century and things become magical again. Just like during the industrial revolution, we are again overwhelmed with technology that is advancing at an ever increasing rate. People are bombarded with issues like genetics, GMOs, cell towers, climate change, CCD, pharmaceutical wonder drugs, and fracking. Very few people have enough education to understand any of it, but with the click of a mouse, they can get thousands and thousands of web pages devoted to either side of the issue. After a few hours of reading, a person can easily be convinced that magnetic resonance and homeopathy are the cure or cause of CCD. If I can navigate the world on my iPhone that has 1000 times the computing power of the early space program, why wouldn’t putting magnets on the sole of my feet cure my arthritis?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I thought I knew your sense of humor Nabber, so I took a leap.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

So, ummm, if this is all true, why have I found bee hives in rock and concrete walls? Why do people find hives, that have been there for years, in things like old tires, mailboxes, 50 gallon drums, etc?


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

Btw...this is a hilarious thread. Been fun reading the replies while I take breaks from fencing. Sarcastic or not. :applause:


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

Bee Whisperer said:


> The best and simplest example of Tuning Element Technology can be demonstrated with two tuning forks of the same frequency. If the first one is held silent, unmoving, and untouched, and the second one is struck, the first tuning fork will begin to resonate, hum, or "sing" in harmony and balance with the one which has actually been struck. One acts as that necessary outside "reference point." This characteristic is described as resonance.
> 
> Georges Lakhovsky, a Russian engineer, has correctly theorized that all living cells have three things in common which typically are associated with electronic circuitry. These characteristics include resistance, capacitance, and inductance. . These characteristics, when functioning correctly, will allow the cells to resonate without dissonance, "reference point" from an outside source, a tuning element for them to "listen" to.


The evidence given to support those claims is correct, but the thing is, that evidence doesn't actually support those claims.

The tuning fork works because tuning forks are homogeneous - they are especially manufactured to be a single object made all of same material - and of a very specific mass and shape, too - so the entire object responds the same way to the same resonance frequencies. A steel tuning fork next to another steel tuning fork of the same note will resonate the same as sound waves that match its resonance characteristics (i.e., note) impact it for long enough.

However, the Earth itself is not homogeneous. It's made of all kinds of different materials - each of which has a different resonance and electrical characteristics. You've got a core of not-quite pure iron with some trace elements, and then several layers of decreasing purity until you finally get to the crust which is a more eclectic mix of stuff than your granddad's junk-drawer. That kind of mixture just doesn't get you much resonance - some of the materials won't react to a particular frequency at all; others will refract a frequency and send it on a little bit higher or lower, and then those new frequencies are further deadened or altered by surrounding materials, until there's just nothing there any more. You can prove this, too - smack any two big enough but manipulable natural rocks together and you just don't get a very long lived tone like you get from a tuning fork; not audibly, and not in any inaudible frequencies that you need special instruments to detect either. There's a loud report, which is very quickly over because the disparate materials inside the stone don't resonate with each other to sustain the vibration. For this reason, I don't think the theory that the Earth as a unit actually has some kind of special acoustical resonance that it's constantly singing out makes physical sense.

Humans - and the bodies of other animals - are like that, too. Yes, it's true - all living cells have resistance, capacitance, and inductance. But these properties aren't the same in every cell in your body. The cells in your nerves and the muscles they command are very conductive; but your connective tissues, bones, and skin are much more resistive. They have to be - otherwise whenever you sent a little impulse down your arm to move a single finger, every muscle in your arm would react, and anyone who touched you while you're flexing your biceps would twitch uncontrollably.

Now, it's fair to say that in theory you might be able to build resonance in one of those very rare spots in your body where there's nothing but material of the same type....like the fluid in your eyeballs, maybe...but that resonance couldn't translate to any other part of your body.


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## Bee Whisperer (Mar 24, 2013)

This has been a very entertaining thread. My wife and I have enjoyed it a great deal. 

There is truth in regard to the Earth's frequency, but the science behind how life reacts to such things is still speculative. Yes, there are mysteries and interesting aspects of affects, and we should be open minded enough to play and experiment and hypothesize; that is science. Yet, we should also be smart enough to say; show me the beef! (Dating myself there.) 

Bees make the rocks in my head resonate; what does that say about me? :scratch: And, for some, it takes some real special stones when working with bees /S :lookout:, but until theory has finally transformed into factual truth as we know it, we might need to just observe these masterful manipulators to see if their rocks become heavy enough to sink their boat.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Bee Whisperer said:


> Georges Lakhovsky, a Russian engineer, has correctly theorized that all living cells have three things in common which typically are associated with electronic circuitry. These characteristics include resistance, capacitance, and inductance. . These characteristics, when functioning correctly, will allow the cells to resonate without dissonance, "reference point" from an outside source, a tuning element for them to "listen".


I hate to tell you this, but every object or material in the universe has resistance, induced resonance, capacitance, and inductance; including the taco that I am eating right now, the salsa that I am eating it with, and the beer that I am washing it down with. These properties are nothing unique and it is equivalent to saying that atomic bombs, puppies, and my taco have a special relation because they all have mass and volume.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I still feel a sleight to my regional pride that our stones were not assumed to be at least as good as their's. Ours function even _without _Oxygen.:banana:




Rader Sidetrack said:


> I'll bet your _free _stones don't have the "right frequencies".


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I tend to turn to another topic when guys talk about their stones.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

Beatles, I presume?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Perhaps _Beetles _would be more appropriate for this forum.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Good thread. 

While it is entertaining and a bit of a laugh to read, it is also sad that these con artists exist. Really, it is stealing.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Good thread.
> 
> While it is entertaining and a bit of a laugh to read, it is also sad that these con artists exist. Really, it is stealing.


We should start a Placebo brand line of equipment. It cures everything thats wrong with you, as long as you think it does!


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Edymnion said:


> We should start a Placebo brand line of equipment.


And finally get to sell some stuff to the TF guys!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Edymnion said:


> We should start a Placebo brand line of equipment. It cures everything thats wrong with you, as long as you think it does!


Then we could argue about whether a Placebo is a treatment or not.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> I tend to turn to another topic when guys talk about their stones.


HA!!! :lpf::lpf::lpf:


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

merince said:


> So, if this is right, wherever they mine those stones should be a bee Nirvana, right? I mean a whole mine of properly resonating stones?


On the contrary, there would be a lack of oxygen (since the rocks consume it), and all the EMF from the sun would be absorbed. Over time, the energy absorbed would heat the rock to molten stage. I'm not putting these things near my hives, but they might help to burn out some stumps I have in the yard....


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

Ah well, the lack of oxygen seals it then - best laid plans and all that!


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## JStinson (Mar 30, 2013)

"Basically, it is placing a level 1 grey stone in a quart mason jar of sugar water out for the bees. They become healthy again! Please contact us if you have any questions. God Bless."

I wonder how stoned this guy is to think we'd buy this stone. 

Get it?

:lookout:


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

I get it but thought ya'll mite stone me so I let you say it.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

mac said:


> ya'll mite stone me so I let you say it.


We would!


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

JStinson said:


> "Basically, it is placing a level 1 grey stone in a quart mason jar of sugar water out for the bees.


Can't I just buy one thats already leveled up? I don't want to have to level grind just to get a stone that won't be one shot by the first goblin to stroll by.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Just wondering, on a slightly more serious note, is there no legal recourse whatsoever against these types of scam? Any lawyers among us?

Just, it seems extraordinary to me, that people can start a web site and say just anything, long as there is a small print disclaimer somewhere, and then proceed to take peoples money.

How can this be, in what is supposedly the most advanced, and just, society that has existed?


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> How can this be, in what is supposedly the most advanced, and just, society that has existed?


No, no, it's in the US.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ha. Don't know quite how to take that LOL. 

To me though, these bogus products on dodgy web sites appear to be a major growth industry. Even making incursions into the field of beekeeping. 

A civil society protects the innocent. This crap needs looking at.

Spending pages of website endorsing a product, but having a tiny disclaimer that says they do not endorse it, just, as they say, ain't right. It may not be an abuse of the letter of the law. But it's an abuse of the spirit of the law.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Headline of the article I was just reading- Poll: Americans Don't Trust Scientists


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Nabber86 said:


> I hate to tell you this, but every object or material in the universe has resistance, induced resonance, capacitance, and inductance....


Thats alright, because real resonance is actually governed by mass, stiffness and elasticity, no oxygen necessary.

I wonder if those stones need to be replaced periodically......I bet they have an automatic replacement subscription for a new stone every 90 days. Maybe i could send a gift subscription to a few, well chosen, politicians. They need new stones.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Sheesh! I have been missing out on a golden opportunity. I could handily have tons of rocks from the Uranium Capital of the World! (Or it was till the mines closed down) Just too shy to tolerate prosperity I guess.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Anyone remember "Pet Rocks?"


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I never knew what to feed them, so mine died. Took it out in the back yard and buried it.


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

Rxmaker said:


> I think we should put our old "Mood Rings" in a hive this spring and see what happens. Maybe if the girls are in the mood they will make 200 pounds per hive.


To be effective, I thought the mood rings had to be worn.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fGLm1w1PfZw
The story.


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## jrhoto (Mar 2, 2009)

What was it that P.T. Barnum said?



www.poorvalleybeefarm.com


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