# Swarming and "the top of the hive"



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Tell me if this sounds about right…

When nectar starts coming in during spring the bees will usually store it above the brood nest and below what they perceive as “the top of the hive.” 

When the area between the brood and top of the hive gets full they will store nectar in the broodnest. Backfilling of the broodnest is one of the things which initiate swarming. Maybe even one of the main things.

Furnishing additional drawn comb in this area is a fundamental swarm prevention method.

In a managed hive the bees can perceive several things as being “the top of the hive.”

* The inner cover or lid.

* Undrawn foundation

* Capped honey

Once nectar is being stored overhead – inserting boxes of new foundation immediately above the brood nest and below where nectar is being stored is a good way to get new comb, and should not (fingers crossed) make the hive swarmy.










Without intervention this hive is very likely to initiate swarm prep soon if not already.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i would add that a gap in the comb at a box break can also be perceived by the bees as the 'top of the hive'.

last spring my bees ran low on stores because of extended cold/wet weather. this left me with 2 to 3 medium supers of empty drawn comb to place over my single deep on most of my hives. i thought i had it made on swarm prevention, and while half of my colonies did not swarm the other half did.

the hives that swarmed surprised me (should have been inspecting closer) because they were not moving up and storing in the supers of empty comb. one of the hives never moved up out of the deep into the drawn supers, a couple of other hives moved up into the first super and stopped, and a couple of others stopped at the top of the second super even though there was a third super of drawn comb available.

i thought that they were just not building population as fast as the others and were not likely to swarm with all of that empty comb overhead. but what happened instead was that they established the 'top of the hive' at the functional break between boxes and started capping honey and backfilled down from there.

as far as putting a super foundation above the brood nest, i tried that year before last and it failed miserably. i am noticing as walt describes that there isn't much wax making going on until after a hive has already swarmed or has abandoned the intent to swarm. i found that when i added a super of foundation above the broodnest prior to new wax making it acted like a barrier and caused the bees to promptly backfill below it and swarm.

for this year, i'll be watching more closely for the establishment of that solid dome of honey overhead, and if needed i'll be moving some frames around to get the bees into the next box up and keep open channels of empty comb to the top.

for beginners that don't have empty comb to work with, 'opening up the sides' with foundationless frames as matt davey describes might work better, especially if it is prior to the 'main flow'. for some reason the bees will draw wax sooner on foundationless frames in the season than they will draw wax on foundation, at least that was what i saw when i tried it a couple of springs ago.


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## rweaver7777 (Oct 17, 2012)

Is this the same as checkerboarding? And, if one was to purchase new frames because one needed them, would the collective wisdom here tell me to go foundationless? I've read that same thing here that bees prefer foundationless.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Bees love foundationless. I love 20 lb test fishing line strung in my foundationless deep frames, due to summer heat. Works.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

rweaver7777 said:


> Is this the same as checkerboarding?


Checkerboarding puts empty comb above the brood nest so that the bees can move up into it - and store nectar overhead, but also keeps the winter cluster in contact with food so that they don't starve during a stretch of cold weather. So, yes it is all related.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

squarepeg said:


> supers of empty drawn comb to place over my single deep on most of my hives. i thought i had it made on swarm prevention, and while half of my colonies did not swarm the other half did.
> 
> the hives that swarmed surprised me (should have been inspecting closer) because they were not moving up and storing in the supers of empty comb.


Yes. I think the lesson is that no matter what method you use it could fail to work out. If it is possible to do so we should probably keep an eye on things - inspect often enough to take effective action.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

rweaver7777 said:


> would the collective wisdom here tell me to go foundationless? I've read that same thing here that bees prefer foundationless.


Some people do, but most don't - go foundationless that is. I started out that way, but changed to mostly foundation in year 2.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

David LaFerney said:


> Some people do, but most don't - go foundationless that is. I started out that way, but changed to mostly foundation in year 2.


interesting david. i use rite cell in my supers, are you using wax foundation? are you having success getting foundation frames drawn prior to swarm season when put above the broodnest? maybe it's a wax vs. plastic thing.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I've tried just about every single option, and I've settled on plastic (rite cell mostly) foundation. I might use a few foundationless frames here and there when it makes sense, but I don't expect to ever buy any wax foundation again.

Most of my frames have actually been drawn out in nucs - or some kind of expansion hive anyway. I have gotten some comb drawn in the method mentioned above, but I didn't mean to imply that was based on my experience - it's just what I have heard recommended so many times. I assume it is more or less standard practice.

I'm still figuring it out myself.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)




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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

rweaver7777 said:


> Is this the same as checkerboarding? And, if one was to purchase new frames because one needed them, would the collective wisdom here tell me to go foundationless? I've read that same thing here that bees prefer foundationless.


No. Checkerboarding uses alternated frames of drawn empty comb and frames of capped honey.

Opening the Sides is used when you don't have spare drawn comb, so it is alternating new empty frames with frames of partially filled drawn comb.

The objective of Opening the Sides is to trigger wax making well before swarm season and to keep the beehive in "Expansion Mode" well into the main flow. Where Checkerboarding is about getting the bees to move up into new boxes and stay in "Storage Mode" well into the main flow.

The frames I use are not completely a foundationless. They have a 1 inch strip of foundation as a comb guide. I have used ice cream sticks as comb guides and I prefer the results of the foundation strip much better.


In terms of the original post, when the bees are leading up to swarm season they are working at the top of the broodnest, which is not necessarily at the top of the hive. So for swarm prevention you need to be looking at the top of the broodnest.

With Opening the Sides your focus is the SIDES of the broodnest. You want the broodnest to fill the whole width of the box. So your concern is the top box that the broodnest is IN.

Your focus should NOT be in the supers! That is just where you are storing the (empty) drawn comb until the bees decide to move up and start using it. The first one or two frames that are moved up will likely be robbed out and emptied. I've found you need to move up at least 2, preferably 3 drawn frames into a new box before the bees will move up and start using that box.

I don't use a queen excluder, so if the queen starts laying in the new box, that's not a problem. It actually helps to continue the process of Opening the Sides and getting more comb drawn.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

MattDavey said:


> The objective of Opening the Sides is to trigger wax making well before swarm season and to keep the beehive in "Expansion Mode" well into the main flow. Where Checkerboarding is about getting the bees to move up into new boxes and stay in "Storage Mode" well into the main flow.


Nectar management during the flow with checkerboarded frames is only part of the "Checkerboarding" strategy, at least according to Walt. 

The main focus of checkerboarding is in late winter/early spring when boxes are checkerboarded "above" the expanding brood nest. This has nothing to do with nectar storage, in fact just the opposite. A box with alternating frames of empty comb/capped honey is placed above the late winter brood nest. As spring approaches the bees expand the brood nest up into the checkerboarded box. With overhead lanes of empty comb the queen moves up and is laying eggs in the empty comb while the bees consume the honey stores on each side. 

With no capped dome of honey overhead during brood expansion the bees are much less prone to start swarm preparation. Once they colony passes the reproductive cut off date, then "supers" can be checkerboarded for nectar management. It's a similar process, but two different purposes.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

When I said 'move up' I was including the brood nest expanding up into the new box. The broodnest is not limited.

My main point there was that with Checkerboarding the bees are not making wax, they are expanding the broodnest and storing nectar in the Checkerboarded boxes.


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## tank (Jun 20, 2013)

I wonder what would happen if you extracted the honey just above the brood nest?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I have heard of people doing that.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

David LaFerney said:


> Checkerboarding puts empty comb above the brood nest so that the bees can move up into it - and store nectar overhead, but also keeps the winter cluster in contact with food so that they don't starve during a stretch of cold weather. So, yes it is all related.


Does this mean one can manipulate frames in the winter when bees are clustered?
If so under what circumstances is this done and what does one do with the frames?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

WBVC said:


> Does this mean one can manipulate frames in the winter when bees are clustered?
> If so under what circumstances is this done and what does one do with the frames?


Not really. Checker boarding does not involve the brood nest at all. Picture this - you have a single deep hive, you also have a super of honey and one of empty comb. You combine the two supers with alternating frames of honey and comb. Put those on top of your single with the honey in the top box over empty comb in the bottom super. That's checkerboarded. You never mess with the brood. You could do it in any kind of reasonable weather. Not zero like today, but any time bees are flying for sure.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

David LaFerney said:


> Not really. Checker boarding does not involve the brood nest at all. Picture this - you have a single deep hive, you also have a super of honey and one of empty comb. You combine the two supers with alternating frames of honey and comb. Put those on top of your single with the honey in the top box over empty comb in the bottom super. That's checkerboarded. You never mess with the brood. You could do it in any kind of reasonable weather. Not zero like today, but any time bees are flying for sure.


Thank you..I had thought one did not mess the brood except:
to open the sides in good weather when making brood
to take frames when splitting the box to make up nucs

I had thought for checkerboarding you put the empty super above the brood, then the full super above that and traded a few full ..every other...empty frame for one with honey but guess I was mistaken.

I do have 3 hives with both honey stores above and adjacent to the bees plus sugar bricks above the top frames yet they seem very week compared to my other hives which are thriving. All are in the same bee yard and have been treated equally.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

WBVC said:


> Thank you..I had thought one did not mess the brood except:
> to open the sides in good weather when making brood
> to take frames when splitting the box to make up nucs
> 
> ...


You're right I believe. But I only meant that you don't manipulate brood for the purpose of checker boarding. For all kinds of other things you do.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i think 'the top of the hive' concept is an important one. walt refers to it as 'the top of the working level'. making sure the bees move into and begin to use that next box up is an essential part of swarm prevention. 

walt found that checkerboarding honey frames with empty combs all the way to the top of the stack was effective in drawing the bees up into those top boxes. he has reported that doing this consistently kept the bees from establishing a solid dome of honey overhead long enough for the bees to abandon swarm ambition. 

i found that with nothing but supers of empty comb overhead the bees stopped at a break between boxes. this became the 'top of their working level' and they totally ignored the drawn comb in the next box up. they re-established the solid honey dome on the early flows, and swarmed.

i hope to have enough frames of honey this year to checkerboard honey all the way to the top of 2 - 3 supers above a single deep. nothing will please me more than if the bees move up through the supers and store nectar without any further manipulation required as walt experienced. the only difference is that i will be using mediums for supers whereas walt used shallows.

if i see them getting 'stuck' at a break between boxes i'll likely move some frames around. i'll take any medium frames that have brood in them (especially if they are capping honey at the top of those frames) and move them to a medium super at the bottom of the stack performing walt's so called 'pollen box maneuver'. (this box then remains on the bottom for pollen storage until the next year, when those empty frames are moved up again for checkerboarding in late winter) i'll also make sure at this point that there is still empty comb mixed in above the broodnest so there is plenty of room for incoming nectar.

when i see new white wax, i'll add a super of foundation baited with at least one partially drawn frame. i had good luck last year placing the foundation supers one or two positions down from the top of the stack, at which time i put the frames that were capped or almost capped at the top where they were easily accessible for harvest.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I think in the north country if the bees can go up they will go up. Slapping on a box of drawn comb will certainly draw them up into it (my experience). New foundation is different wax. Who knows where it came from and maybe they think it is another hive. I don't know. But if you bring up one of their frames maybe two they will go up and once they are up they will fill it. So it is just a matter of bringing up one or two of their frames with their homemade wax to get them to go. I am sure it isn't the honey dome that stops them from going up into empty supers nor the top/bottom bar break.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

in hindsight i wish i would have pulled a frame or two up into the next box ace. i'll bet your right that it would have coaxed them up.

why are you sure it wasn't the honey dome or the break in comb that stopped them from going up into the next box of their own drawn comb (not foundation)? what do you think it was?

looks to me like they were just following their program of attempting to issue a reproductive swarm. the early flow was good enough for them to get an adequate honey reserve overhead after which they proceeded to backfill. i didn't consider the possibility of them doing that until it was too late. i.e. i was led into a false sense of security by having all of that drawn comb overhead, and i thought they were just slower to build up than the other hives.

checkerboarding is thought to trick the bees into thinking they don't have an adequate reserve of solid honey. they are kept busy trying to put that in place but never quite reach it until it's past prime swarm time.

i found queen cells in a couple of my hives last spring, but they were still storing nectar overhead and not backfilling so i left them. turns out they just superceded without swarming which is the same observation walt had made with his checkerboarded hives.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Ace, 
What you are "sure" of does not trump facts.
Walt


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> why are you sure it wasn't the honey dome or the break in comb that stopped them from going up into the next box of their own drawn comb (not foundation)? what do you think it was?


I can't say what it was in your area any more than Walt can say what it is in my area. Bee behavior changes per location and that is what makes them so adaptable.

Are you saying they were storing honey overhead in an empty box and then decided to quit or they were storing honey in the brood chamber overhead and then swarmed. Were these feral bees that were use to a cavity of 40 liters and you tried to give them 80? What was their environment before you owned them? A colony stores far more honey then they need to swarm. They don't have a quota but they do have systematic behaviors. Either you were too late in providing space or they had a different plan then you did. Did you limit the queen to a confined area?

If Walt's plan works for you in your area you would be crazy to not follow it. Walt's plan won't work everywhere. Bee behavior is location specific.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

So Brian, please tell us about your experiences from when you did a trial of checker boarding. How many hives/seasons did you commit to the experiment before coming to your conclusions?

How about you Mr Wright? How many colony/seasons are your ideas based on?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

David LaFerney said:


> So Brian, please tell us about your experiences from when you did a trial of checker boarding. How many hives/seasons did you commit to the experiment before coming to your conclusions?


Never tried it, never will. Pretty hard to checkerboard a hive when the bees are in the top box of a stack of 4 or 5. It is -4 out there today and February is usually our coldest month so I ain't digging into the hive in February. Find someone else in the north to run the experiment. There are methods up here that have worked for years. No point in going radical to prove a point.

Yeah, Mr. Wright how many colony/seasons in the NORTH are your ideas based on? I don't see Mr. Palmer doing it. Convince him and then I might try.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Walt's plan won't work everywhere.


So, that absolute statement is really based on this absolute statement:



Acebird said:


> Never tried it, never will.


And not actually on any experience - either yours or any other persons - or even a reasoned argument. Rather - "I have not done it therefore it will not work." That about sum up your position?

And BTW, if someone in your area wanted to checkerboard they certainly would not have to wait until the dead of winter to do the manipulation. You can do it in late fall when you are doing final winter prep. You just can't wait too late to do it - or it isn't a fair trial.

BTW, it's -3 in my yard this morning. Kind of irrelevant, but there it is.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

Gypsi said:


> Bees love foundationless. I love 20 lb test fishing line strung in my foundationless deep frames, due to summer heat. Works.


Could you post a photo of your strung frame? I like foundationless (first tried it last year), but unstrung frames.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

David LaFerney said:


> You can do it in late fall when you are doing final winter prep.


Really, I have never heard Walt say that. You are not speaking for him are you?

Let me get this straight, cause this is a new concept, You are going to remove frames of honey in two deep boxes or one in late fall? I think they would starve either way. What do you think MP? Any chance of this working?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

No I'm not speaking for him, he is very able to speak for his self. However I think I can come pretty close to a quote - "yes you can do it in December. As a matter of fact the first time I tried checkerboarding I did it in December."

By the way you are talking about it I'm pretty sure you don't quite get how checker boarding is done.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

David LaFerney said:


> By the way you are talking about it I'm pretty sure you don't quite get how checker boarding is done.


I have his manuscript and I don't see how it can be done without a serious risk to the colony in Upstate NY.

Note to Squarepeg, in chapter 7 Nectar Management Manipulation, there is a diagram Fig. 8 that shows checkerboarding two supers above a full super of honey so I don't see how Walt could believe that a band of honey above the brood nest could deter the bees from storing honey above it. I am not sure why your hive swarmed but it seems they had intended to before you checkerboarded.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Note to Squarepeg, in chapter 7 Nectar Management Manipulation, there is a diagram Fig. 8 that shows checkerboarding two supers above a full super of honey so I don't see how Walt could believe that a band of honey above the brood nest could deter the bees from storing honey above it.


Brian, 
Figure 8 displays the "one step" manipulation which he recommends doing in late winter/early spring for brood nest expansion. This manipulation is done early in the season, prior to the colony going into swarm preparation. As you move forward in the timeline, the colony is expanding the brood nest upward and the super of all capped honey will be consumed during the expansion. When the time comes for the colony to prepare for swarming there should be no solid overhead dome of honey remaining, but all checkerboarded frames which they will continue to move up into, rather than backfilling the broodnest. 

Flip over to the paragraph under Figure 9.

"Brood nest volume is accelerated by alternate frames of nectar. When the brood nest is growing into solid capped honey overhead, that honey must be consumed by the population to increase brood nest size. *Thinning the amount of honey that must be consumed speeds up brood nest expansion.*"

We live in a very different climate than Walt, but the same basic principles will apply. Of course our timing will be different, and we will have to modify our configuration somewhat to achieve the same goals, but it will work.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

brian, i didn't have any honey to checkerboard last spring, all of the supers over the single deep were empty drawn comb. mike is correct, walt observed that the bees ate through that first shallow of honey well before swarm season, and then continue to brood up through the second and third shallows, presumably not swarming because of the lack of solid honey overhead.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> brian, i didn't have any honey to checkerboard last spring, all of the supers over the single deep were empty drawn comb. mike is correct, walt observed that the bees ate through that first shallow of honey well before swarm season, and then continue to brood up through the second and third shallows, presumably not swarming because of the lack of solid honey overhead.


I don't use shallows. I use all mediums. And I dare say they will eat through two solid mediums no problem. What I don't agree with is that they will swarm because there is a solid box of honey above them if there is empty boxes of drawn comb above that. The bees store honey overhead and as far as I have witnessed they will continue to store it overhead if there is a place to store it. How in the world does a hive ever get to ten boxes high if they didn't.

I shoot for four medium boxes for a brood chamber with the bottom one usually filled with pollen in the fall. I don't go over 7 boxes so the most I am going to have is three boxes of honey. I am happy to take one of the top and leave the other two to overwinter on.

Mike, please give me your timeline when you do what and how you do what Walt says to do. I am sure that what he says to do in the south works just fine. There are people like Squarepeg that attest to it. I don't see people up here jumping through hoops to do it. I find it hard to believe that if it was so much better than what they are doing or have done they would adopt the practice hands down. Most people are hell bent for election to get more production of honey. I am not.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Acebird said:


> What I don't agree with is that they will swarm because there is a solid box of honey above them if there is empty boxes of drawn comb above that.


i'll be sure and let those five colonies that did just that know acebird doesn't agree with it.



Acebird said:


> The bees store honey overhead and as far as I have witnessed they will continue to store it overhead if there is a place to store it.


until they go into swarm mode.



Acebird said:


> There are people like Squarepeg that attest to it.


i can attest that i have made many similar observations as walt has reported. i've yet to have enough drawn comb and/or honey to properly checkerboard in late winter, but i hope to this year.




Acebird said:


> Most people are hell bent for election to get more production of honey. I am not.


:applause:


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Mike, please give me your timeline when you do what and how you do what Walt says to do.


Brian,

I'm in a different climate than Walt, and I use 3 mediums to overwinter, so what I do is a modified version of his practices. The main objective is to have checkerboarded frames (and not a dome of capped honey) for the bees to move upward into when they are expanding the brood nest. Locally, heavy brood expansion occurs here in late March or early April depending on regional bloom and weather patterns. 

That is when I will pick a warm day to manipulate the boxes and frames, 3-4 weeks before any swarm preparations begin. If they have brood in the bottom 2 boxes then the top box will be checkerboarded and a 4th box added, checkerboarded as well if there are enough frames of honey available. This point in time is when it is critical to break up the overhead dome of honey and allow the bees to easily expand the broodnest upward. If not they will begin to store nectar above the dome, stop brood expansion, and then begin to backfill the brood nest. 

If they have brood in the top 2 boxes I will move the bottom box to the top, reversing, and checkerboard that box if there are any frames of honey in it. A 4th box will also be added. In a 3 medium set up this is very common for me to find in early spring. 

Then later in April more supers with empty comb will be added, and frames of drawn comb will be inserted into the brood nest if any backfilling is beginning to happen. I guess what I do is a combination of checkerboarding and opening the broodnest.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

nice description mike, thanks.

if you do put frames of empty comb into the broodnest do you put them in the middle or at the sides?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

If there are enough bees to cover everything well, I like to insert them in between two frames of mostly capped brood, and move a frame with honey from the outside up into the upper box. Just one or two at a time. Later in the flow when the bees are starting to produce more wax I'll insert empty frames in the same manner.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood mike, thanks again. hard to beat the versatility of using all boxes the same size. i may put an all medium hive together this year just for fun. are your empty frames foundation or foundationless?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Switching to all mediums changed everything for me, so much frustration just evaporated. It's not for everyone, but I sure do love it. 

I use all empty frames with wooden starter strips and fishing line. I do have some plastic PF-125's too.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

When doing this same manipulation I use any (medium) foundationless frame available - with or without a starter strip - if it is between 2 fully built brood frames they pretty much build it out perfect every time in my experience. I've never tried the "opening the sides" method, but I probably will this time. I'll try about anything once - which was once the cause of much anxiety for my Mom.

I've never used fishing line or any other cross support for foundationless frames, and they extract fine in my Maxant 3100 hand cranked - as long as they are pretty much fully built. Once they are a couple of years old they are little different to extract than any other. Sorry - off topic I know.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> i've yet to have enough drawn comb and/or honey to properly checkerboard in late winter, but i hope to this year.


Then you didn't have enough drawn comb to put above the honey cap in the first place so why are you saying they swarmed because of the honey cap?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I guess what I do is a combination of checkerboarding and opening the broodnest.


Well OK Mike I do very similar. I think Walt says do it 8 weeks before, big difference. And his whole scheme is centered around not messing with the brood nest. He is against reversals. For me doing it in April there is no cap or honey dome.

So we got two people claiming they are doing Walts method and they are not even close. I am sure everyone does "checkboarding" if you want to call alternating empty frames with full frames of honey but that is not his prescribed "swarm prevention" method or timeline.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sorry ace, i thought i had explained it in the post above.

i came out of winter last year having some hives with the bees located a single deep and 2 - 3 medium supers of empty drawn comb overhead. foundation was not an issue.

what i observed was that these colonies stopped at a break between boxes and totally ignored the _empty drawn comb _in the boxes above the break. one colony stopped at the top of the deep, two others stopped at the top of the first medium, and two others stopped at the top of the second medium. they set their 'working level' at the break and re-established the solid dome of honey on the early nectar flows from the break working down.

since you have it, you are aware that the title of walt's manuscript is "nectar management - principles and practices".

most of us aren't running single deeps and shallow supers so our 'practices' are not exactly the same as walt's.

i think what we are trying to communicate is that our observations are consistent with what walt has described and tend to support the 'principles' that he has put forth.

as far as the solid dome of honey goes, the idea is that the parent colony 'wants' to have solid honey overhead in reserve to be able to carry on after the loss of up to half of it's work force at swarm issue. walt postulates that this is the first prerequisite for swarm preparations.

my experience with these colonies last year supports this idea. by ignoring the supers of empty comb overhead the bees were able to get that reserve in place and swarm. they are good bees and they got the job done. 

walt has also suggested that the functional break in comb that occurs between boxes can influence colony decisions. in so far as there was not one drop of nectar stored in the drawn comb above the break and capped honey put in place just below the break supports this principle.

walt believes that his success in preventing swarming by checkerboarding begins with the breaking up of that solid honey reserve overhead. in addition the bees readily expand the broodnest up into those frames of empty comb flanked with honey frames, and there is plenty of room for storing the nectar coming in.

the other 'principles' put forth by walt that i have observed with consistency are:

1. there appears to be a definite timeline that is tied in with the blooms during which reproductive swarming is seen.
2. there appears to be a cut off during that timeline after which colonies that haven't swarmed do not swarm. 
3. wax making (new white wax and the drawing of foundation) does not occur until after a colony swarms or is prevented from swarming by that cut off in the timeline. (although the bees can be coerced into drawing a foundationless frame if it is put in or beside the broodnest prior to new white wax)


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Brian,
My bees are not in Tennessee, I can't use Walt's exact timeline. If I tried to do the manipulations 8 weeks ahead of time, in January or February in the snow, I would probably kill my bees. As I mentioned earlier, I use a modified checkerboarding method. It doesn't really matter to me what it's called, but it greatly reduces swarming and it works for me. Guess I'll just call it "Gillmoring Method" and we can leave Walt out of it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> what i observed was that these colonies stopped at a break between boxes and totally ignored the _empty drawn comb _in the boxes above the break.


There is no way of telling if your timing was off and they had already decided to swarm before you did anything.


> walt believes that his success in preventing swarming by checkerboarding begins with the breaking up of that solid honey reserve overhead.


Super, what if there are four empty boxes below the brood nest similar to what would be the case in a feral hive? Will they swarm before the space below is used? They will have nectar overhead. 



> 2. there appears to be a cut off during that timeline after which colonies that haven't swarmed do not swarm.


Walt enjoys coming up with new bee terms. Bees swarm right up until they can't fly anymore and he explains that away as those are not "repo swarms". How the heck does he know? Can he speak bee buzz? He makes observations and tries to explain them. Not a lot of science that I can see. I put him right along many other beekeepers that have a lot of experience. Someone to take note of but far from gospel.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Brian,
> My bees are not in Tennessee, I can't use Walt's exact timeline. If I tried to do the manipulations 8 weeks ahead of time, in January or February in the snow, I would probably kill my bees.


Well now you are speaking my language. I don't think my method is too far off from the Gillmore method but I think it is quite a ways from the Walt method.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Well now you are speaking my language. I don't think my method is too far off from the Gillmore method but I think it is quite a ways from the Walt method.


Can you explain some of the details in your method? Back in post #26 you mentioned that you usually have the bees in the top box in early spring, if I am reading that correctly. What do you do from there?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Acebird said:


> There is no way of telling if your timing was off and they had already decided to swarm before you did anything.


that was the problem. i didn't do anything after putting the supers on in late february which was months before swarm season here. i was too non-interventional. i assumed they had enough room overhead and were just slow to build up so i wasn't worried about swarming. i was wrong.



Acebird said:


> Super, what if there are four empty boxes below the brood nest similar to what would be the case in a feral hive? Will they swarm before the space below is used? They will have nectar overhead.


i don't know, i've never been in that situation ace, have you? my guess is that the feral hive will swarm if it has a sufficient reserve and the time is right whether the space below is used or not.



Acebird said:


> Walt enjoys coming up with new bee terms. Bees swarm right up until they can't fly anymore and he explains that away as those are not "repo swarms". How the heck does he know? Can he speak bee buzz? He makes observations and tries to explain them. Not a lot of science that I can see. I put him right along many other beekeepers that have a lot of experience. Someone to take note of but far from gospel.


i don't think 'gospel' is even in walt's vocabulary. he makes it clear that the principles he espouses are his best explanation for the observations he has made. he also makes it clear that all he hoped to do was to start a dialogue that had heretofore not taken place. maybe you missed those parts. 

these replies are not for you ace, obviously you already know everything there is to know about bees and swarming. i take the time to write because i find walt's contribution unique. while the methodology may not apply to those running different hive configurations and while the timeline is going to vary in different location, there is no better description of colony operations during the yearly cycle and how that relates to swarming. jmho.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Can you explain some of the details in your method?


Like with all things beekeeping it depends on what I might see and it changes as I learn more hear on beesource.

I have adjusted my method of reversal because I use all mediums. I would say most people up here overwinter in two deeps. I overwinter in 4 or 5 mediums. So far what has happened is the bees are right on the top cover with a lot of honey still remaining in the sides. The bottom box is full of pollen, no brood or anything else. I pull that out and put it aside. I take an empty box of drawn comb and maybe switch a couple of honey frames in the top box if it doesn't contain brood. When the top box fills up I add another box which could be comb or foundation and pull up honey in a checkerboard fashion. When I am confident that the bees are filling that box I put the pollen box between the two supers. They empty that pollen in less than a week and fill it with honey.

The hive that is 5 boxes high I leave along for a while and what has happened with that one is it went nuts. I suspect that it was a second year queen with a mission. This one I hacked, split by the box. The first time I did it I split it in thirds. One third was a dud and I dumped it. In a couple weeks it was easy to tell which hive had the queen and I split it again in half. Both hives made it.

My first split was before drones were emerging. I was experimenting with timelines. The second split was about right for conventional splits.

I wouldn't expect anyone to follow my lead on managing hives. I am experimenting and have nothing to lose. I cannot find a queen and cannot see eggs. I am contented to be a lucky beehaver.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> I overwinter in 4 or 5 mediums. So far what has happened is the bees are right on the top cover with a lot of honey still remaining in the sides. The bottom box is full of pollen, no brood or anything else. I pull that out and put it aside. I take an empty box of drawn comb and maybe switch a couple of honey frames in the top box if it doesn't contain brood.


That accounts for the top and bottom box in a stack of 4-5 boxes. What's in the center 2 or 3 boxes under the top box? Brood, honey? What time of year are you doing your manipulations?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> i didn't do anything after putting the supers on in late february which was months before swarm season here.


Was there any honey in these boxes? They need honey and pollen nearby to raise brood. If there is no foraging, it ain't going to happen. When I manipulate a hive in early spring up here the bees are bringing in pollen. I just have to add honey but certainly not an empty box.





> my guess is that the feral hive will swarm if it has a sufficient reserve and the time is right whether the space below is used or not.


That is not my guess and based on what I do that is not what happens. Bees naturally fill from the top down unless there is a beekeeper systematically adding space to the top. That is why you have to signal them that you added more space up there.





> i don't think 'gospel' is even in walt's vocabulary. he makes it clear that the principles he espouses are his best explanation for the observations he has made. he also makes it clear that all he hoped to do was to start a dialogue that had heretofore not taken place. maybe you missed those parts.


I sure did. I didn't get the impression from his manuscript or his postings on beesource that he was interested in any ideas that disagreed with his views. He doesn't make any bones about it that he disagrees with a 100 or so years of written literature and that they are wrong based on his experiments starting in 1996 with a few hives in one geographical area with blips in the data. What genetics did he have to work with? Hey, everyone is entitled to an opinion. Couldn't anyone that has 50 or so hives write a manuscript on what they do and why they do it? If you were to organize the post from experienced members here on beesource, I think you would have that. Doesn't it make wonderful discussions? I think so.


> obviously you already know everything there is to know about bees and swarming.


Seriously, I have admitted my limited knowledge level many times and it is no secrete what my experience level is. What do you consider discussion?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> What's in the center 2 or 3 boxes under the top box? Brood, honey? What time of year are you doing your manipulations?


I know there is brood and honey. I do not know how much pollen there is. The bottom is old pollen that they ignore because they are bringing in new pollen. Timing is middle of April to the beginning of May. The timing is the hard part because the weather has been so flim flam.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Brian,
As an experiment it might be interesting if you would move your empty bottom box with pollen up to the top, about 3-4 weeks earlier in the season. Do this on a nice day before the bees begin bringing in large amounts of new pollen and nectar.

Leave some of the frames of pollen in the box, and checkerboard frames with honey and empty comb. I'm guessing that the bees will expand their brood nest up into this box too, with honey, pollen, and empty comb all available within reach of the cluster. 

That will give you 4 boxes of brood, and you could simply add supers of drawn comb on top during your typical April-May timeline.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Brian,
> As an experiment it might be interesting if you would move your empty bottom box with pollen up to the top, about 3-4 weeks earlier in the season. Do this on a nice day before the bees begin bringing in large amounts of new pollen and nectar.


That sounds like a good experiment. My only fear is that if they cross the honey dome too early they might starve with the majority of the honey below them. I am pretty certain that two of my three hives are dead so this test won't be done this spring. I could be starting over this spring or trying to build back up to three hives.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Acebird said:


> He doesn't make any bones about it that he disagrees with a 100 or so years of written literature


Mr Wright has experienced a lot of success - his and others - which reinforce the validity of his methods. He has produced a pretty fair volume of work on beekeeping, and I imagine that not all of his ideas are 100% correct, but I'm pretty sure that most of them probably are. 

In any event he deserves a lot of respect for his contributions to beekeeping.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

David LaFerney said:


> In any event he deserves a lot of respect for his contributions to beekeeping.


Rightfully so, along with many other people here on beesource that may or may not disagree with his methods.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

my apologies to ace and the forum for getting snarky in post #49.

ace, this is one of those things that proves the old attage that all things beekeeping are local and it depends, and we are all free to glean whatever we will or won't from other beekeepers. you can learn just as much what not to do sometimes.

sounds like you are checkerboarding supers over a broodnest on the early flows to accommodate expansion, and because you are all mediums you get the pollen box manuveur without having to do any manupilation. bringing that box up above the broodnest for as needed in the spring is something walt describes as part of his 'nectar management'.

sounds like you have adapted part of what walt's proposes doing mixed in with some of your own ingenuity. very cool.

and speaking of walt, i'll refrain now from speaking of walt. the discussion should be more about what the bees are doing than about any one of us.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> sounds like you have adapted part of what walt's proposes doing mixed in with some of your own ingenuity. very cool.


No need to apologize but did you think I bought and read his manuscript with the intention that I know more than he does? Trust me that will never be the case.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

for others running all mediums, do you typically find that the bottom box becomes filled with pollen?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I usually have a mix in the bottom box going into winter. Early spring it's pretty much empty and the bees are in the top two boxes.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thanks mike. and if i understood your previous post correctly, and when it is time to do your preswarm manipulations, you sometimes find the bees have moved the broodnest down to that bottom medium and other times find that box empty and move it up, correct?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Yes, those two scenarios are common for me to find in early spring. 

Sometimes they will have most of their brood in the center medium with some brood stretching down into the top of the bottom box. Frequently in these cases I'll find that the top box is still filled with capped honey, the frugal bees. That's when I'll leave the bottom two boxes alone and CB the top box and add another.

More often than not, in early spring I'll find the brood spread across the top 2 boxes, and the bottom box pretty much empty. The bottom box will be moved up top, and if there are enough frames of capped honey to spare from the other two, I'll CB it. Another empty box can go above it at the same time.

There are so many variations. Some bees are more frugal than others, some overwinter toward the bottom and others in the top. Some expand their brood nest earlier than others, so each colony must be manipulated a little differently to match their individual characteristics. The two examples above are just the most common for me to find.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

great description, again many thanks mike.

the idea of a pollen box makes a lot of sense. like slatted racks it would provide cooling in the summer and protection from drafts in the winter. it may allow for wider broodnest if a lot of the pollen is stored there instead of being flanked beside the brood combs in the other boxes. plus it appears that if given the opportunity it's what the bees prefer to do. sounds like great management for a number of reasons.

so does the bottom medium (whether is was reversed or not) eventually turn into a pollen box as the season progresses with most hives? it sounds like another nice advantage of having all mediums. it's very efficient not needing to do move the bottom box at all with some hives, and then combining reversing and checkerboarding into one move per year with the others.

having a deep in the stack results in having to make two moves on each hive every year for the pollen box. the first is in late winter moving the empty box up to checkerboard it with the honey supers, and the second is moving a super of brood back down later in the season when the broodnest is expanded up into the supers. more work.

i've got a number of new medium boxes on hand, and this has discussion has given me motivation to try some all medium hives this year. that will give me a chance to compare the two methods side by side for other potential advantages/disadvantages.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> More often than not, in early spring I'll find the brood spread across the top 2 boxes, and the bottom box pretty much empty. The bottom box will be moved up top, and if there are enough frames of capped honey to spare from the other two, I'll CB it. Another empty box can go above it at the same time.


And I would do the very same if the bottom box was empty. I wouldn't call this checkerboarding because it is done much later than Walt recommends and you are do a reversal along with it. Mike it sounds like you are overwintering in three mediums or is it four?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> i've got a number of new medium boxes on hand, and this has discussion has given me motivation to try some all medium hives this year.


While you are at it if you use a QE take it out and you won't have the problem that Walt describes of crossing over the bars. Place new foundation in the center flanked by drawn comb on each side. Any ripped out comb or empty frames can be placed on the outside for them to raise drones as they are building down.


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## urbanoutlaw (Nov 19, 2012)

A few questions from a newb:

1) Would checkerboarding work with partiallly drawn frames, or are the bees likely to interpret them as the top of the broodnest?
2) Could I open the sides with two foundationless frames in the lower brood chamber and at the same time checkerboard the top deep (I am using dble deeps)?
3) Is it worthwhile to extract enough deep honey frames to accomplish checkerboarding? I will have at least 3 deeps worth from 2 dead outs.

Sorry if these have been covered earlier and I missed it. Having a tough time getting my head around swarm management going into year 2.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> And I would do the very same if the bottom box was empty. I wouldn't call this checkerboarding because it is done much later than Walt recommends and you are do a reversal along with it. Mike it sounds like you are overwintering in three mediums or is it four?


I try to consolidate my colonies down to 3 mediums for winter. Once in a while it's just not possible if the colony is too big, and it might be 4. 

In early spring when I do my initial manipulations (checkerboarding, reversing, whatever you would like to call it) I'll add a 4th box to my 3 medium colonies.

Again, I respectfully disagree with you. My way of thinking, it's a basic modified checkerboarding manipulation. I simply cannot do it as early in the year as Walt can in Tennessee, the weather will not allow it. 

Guess it doesn't really matter what it's called, as long as the colony doesn't swarm the objective has been met.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

urbanoutlaw said:


> A few questions from a newb:
> 
> 1) Would checkerboarding work with partiallly drawn frames, or are the bees likely to interpret them as the top of the broodnest?
> 2) Could I open the sides with two foundationless frames in the lower brood chamber and at the same time checkerboard the top deep (I am using dble deeps)?
> ...


i'll take a stab at it urbanoutlaw, hopefully some of the others will chime in.

1) checkerboarding with anything other than fully drawn comb in late winter/early spring doesn't work, and can be counterproductive. the reason is that there tends not to be much drawing out of new comb until later in the spring, pretty much after swarm season has came and went. i no longer add any foundation until i start seeing the signs of new white wax being made.

2) hard for me to say because i only have experience with a single deep rather than doubles. i have experimented with putting in foundationless frames prior to when new wax is normally seen and found that they would draw out comb earlier than normal on foundationless frames put in or beside the broodnest. getting the wax makers busy earlier may be helpful in swarm prevention management. read matt davey's posts about his experiences with that.

3) those frames of honey that you recovered from your deadouts (hopefully you have them in a freezer to make sure the small hive beetles don't find them) can be used in a number of ways. i would consider keeping them on hand for now to give to any colony that gets too light on stores before the nectar starts coming in. after that, it makes sense to extract and use the empty comb to give the bees room for expansion and storage in the build up to swarm season. 

if you end up with your bees in the bottom box, something to consider having in the top box would be alternating frames of honey and empty drawn comb if you have enough. i would guess your climate is more like mike gilmore's than mine, so he could probably help you better with the timeline. good luck.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Great comments.

urbanoutlaw,

I used to live in Springfield, not too far from you, so I'm very familiar with your climate. In NOVA the spring blooms usually preceed mine here by 2-3 weeks. You should check with other local beekeepers, but my guess would be that swarm preparations probably start there in middle to late March. By early April you might start seeing queen cells and swarms could begin being cast in the second half of April. A lot depends on your spring temperatures and bloom dates, so this could swing a week or two either way. 

With that said, you should tentatively plan on starting your spring manipulations in early March. After a quick inspection on a warm day you will be able to determine how to proceed. If your hives still have plenty of frames of honey left it might make sense at that point to extract honey from the deads outs so you have empty frames of comb if needed. 

Your climate is probably a little closer to Walt's than mine. If it's something you would like to pursue, I suggest ordering his Nectar Management manuscript, it is very interesting. Then you have all summer to digest it and prepare for the following season. Since you have some extra boxes now with drawn comb that should be enough to get you through this spring. Just be vigilant March thru early May, that will be your critical time period for swarm management.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

urbanoutlaw said:


> A few questions from a newb:
> 
> 1) Would checkerboarding work with partiallly drawn frames, or are the bees likely to interpret them as the top of the broodnest?
> 2) Could I open the sides with two foundationless frames in the lower brood chamber and at the same time checkerboard the top deep (I am using dble deeps)?
> ...


1) As long as you are alternating/Checkerboarding with fully drawn frames they should use the partialy drawn frames. Because they have a path to get to them via the fully drawn frames. (Although I have seen older combs that the bees seem to resist drawing out further. The combs look more rounded on the bottom edge.)

2) Yes, the more drawn comb you have the more options you have. I would still have a couple of new frames in the new box on top as well. Putting each new frame in one or two frames from the outside of the box. The outside frames that you move up can be put on the outside in the new box. 

Keep the wax makers busy building comb. They key is to keep them making wax and not let it stop until after the main flow.

3) Proper Checkerboarding alternates frames of honey with empty comb. This allows the broodnest to be expanded into the new box straight away. So at most you would extract half of the frames.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

MattDavey said:


> Keep the wax makers busy building comb. They key is to keep them making wax and not let it stop until after the main flow.


There is so much talk about how valuable drawn comb is it led me astray last year. Like anything a mixed balance is important because of what you just said. It is true if you have too much drawn comb you can always tear it out and install foundation but you have to have the mindset. Now that I know the importance of the balance I will not have the problem of too much drawn comb again.
For me I don't see a situation of too much capped honey ever showing up because honey is my only acceptable feed.


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