# Friday 13, good time for an "Acebird"



## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

Do you have any idea how tempting it is to tell you to look in one your beekeeping books? 

Anyway, what comes to mind for me is this: are there any drones of flying age where you live. If not then one of these splits or divides or whatever label you choose won't be able to make a viable queen. 

I would check both parts for eggs. That roar and the nasty attitude could indicate no queen. 

Assuming there are eggs in both parts and there are drones out there somewhere, you probably will end up with two hives. It would not be unusual for a split hive to show little activity, since the foragers will go to the old hive, assuming the old hive stays in the original spot. The split will be nurse bees. You do need to provide syrup to the split, for that reason.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Honey isn't good enough?


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

If there's enough of it.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

The larva you showed is all drone brood. Did you make sure that each "divide" had eggs/young larva to start queen cells? They can't raise a queen without resources; there's no magic way to use honey instead of bee larva to create a queen!


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

Couldn't have happened to a better guy...


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## mrqb (Jul 17, 2011)

I would say the outcome is likely to be your nose will swell a little. As for the bees i'm with fish stix...............................and the blind man said i know my veil is here somewhere,


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

With overnight temperatures in the 30's I would have closed the SBB's.

I would also have reduced the entrances down...

Could this be an opportunity to get some nice photos of chilled brood?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

fish_stix said:


> They can't raise a queen without resources; there's no magic way to use honey instead of bee larva to create a queen!


LOL, I have no idea if there is eggs/young larvae in each of the divides. I plan on going in these boxes today and see what is there.

BeeCourious, some of the larvae were still alive that was sitting right on top of the cover overnight. Had I known you wanted them chilled I could have put them in the fridge and then set them to you.

mrqb, my nose didn't swell at all. 20 minutes later you couldn't even see where I got stung. It is a trait I inherited from my father. I usually get bit by one or two ticks a year. At first I would find them when they swell up. Now they just die and don't get the chance. My wife has to check me for ticks (remember that song). I have had two already this year. This year is a bad year for ticks. People need to watch out if it is a problem for them.

theriverhawk, I am hoping it will help with my arthritis.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> LOL, I have no idea if there is eggs/young larvae in each of the divides. I plan on going in these boxes today and see what is there.


ACE... that is the most important thing! No reason to split without some open brood.... maybe you can find enough to or get some from the other mediums. Might be simpler to just go buy or borrow a coupla queens.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The reason to split was I would rather have three struggling hives than one ready to explode. I will have a couple of swarm traps out in case it does anyway. In the mean time I will be whacking it down in an attempt to relieve the pressure.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

If there is no open brood... they will not struggle... they will just die.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

You haven't answered the basic question of weather you have mature drones yet - clearly you've got very young drone brood. Did you attempt to evenly divide up the resources in the mediums, making sure each had eggs or very young larvae. Also, where's the queen? I know nothing about your area, but I'd keep a very close eye on these splits. My guess is that this was a very aggressive split for this time of year. Now if you had two mated queens, then you're good to go.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

There doesn't appear to be. It appears to be solid frames of sealed brood (4-5) about 9 inches in dia and not a lot of honey. I tried looking in the main hive and it appears similar but I only took out a couple of frames. There are so many bees that when I pull a frame out they fill the space with bees and it is impossible to put the frame back in without smashing them.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

AstroBee said:


> clearly you've got very young drone brood. Did you attempt to evenly divide up the resources in the mediums, making sure each had eggs or very young larvae. Also, where's the queen?


Yes it was aggressive, yes I did answer these questions. If I could find eggs and larvae or the queen I would be in better shape. Something made all these bees. Maybe I will just take a box off a week and sell them by the pound. Wadaya think?


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

:scratch: Just out of curiousity, what is "non intervention beekeeping?" And haven't you just intervened in that colony?
Regards,
Steven


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> I would rather have three struggling hives than one ready to explode.


I would have gone for two hives... possibly ready to make honey.

Acebird, does not knowing if you have eggs or young larvae in your "splits" really cause you to "LOL"? Really?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Yes it was aggressive, yes I did answer these questions.


How about this question.... Do you see mature drones walking around on the comb.... this would be indicative out waiting to breed your soon to be produced queens? Drones have been flying for quite a long time here... but you are in Utica.... which is kinda like the North Pole to me... so I don't know... if they are flying you just might be in pretty good shape.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

My plan was to separate the boxes to make it easier to inspect. That part worked pretty good. What is concerning me is I don't see eggs and larvae. I have seen drones outside the hive and plenty inside the hive so if they are not flying they soon will be. It would take a couple of weeks anyway before the queen is ready to go on her honeymoons. Today it is over 80 degrees and fruit trees are blooming along with dandelions. There is activity at every hive location and the main hive looks more active then the middle of summer right now and that is after two boxes of bees were pulled off. I just didn't want this hive to swarm but it might anyway. I was also hoping I would get another hive. Right now they have four places they could choose for a home if the bees die off in these two splits.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

StevenG said:


> :scratch: Just out of curiousity, what is "non intervention beekeeping?" And haven't you just intervened in that colony?
> Regards,
> Steven


When your back is against the wall you have to have some flexibility. My other choice was to let them swarm and then try to catch the swarm. That still might be an option.

I would list walk away splits as the least intervening style of beekeeping. What say you?


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## deejaycee (Apr 30, 2008)

Acebird said:


> I would list walk away splits as the least intervening style of beekeeping. What say you?


I do walk-away splits all the time. They require checking for eggs and young brood when the split is done. 

What you have done isn't a walk-away split. It's a 'strip a bunch of bees off and see if they die'.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I've never done a pure walk away split, but did an improved version this autumn, I ended up with a heap of spare ready to hatch queen cells, but was very time starved. So I just went around and split a bunch of hives without even looking for the queen, and put a cell in all of them, queen or not. Couple of weeks ago I went around and checked, very high success rate, the ones that didn't work out I just stuck straight back on top of a queenright one.

Pretty crude I guess but I get the genetics I want and it's faster than waiting for them to raise a cell of their own.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I thought there might have been queen cells but I only saw one and it didn't have any larvae. There may be more on the main hive but the bottom deep was very light. If I took the third medium off I suspect the main hive would be doomed.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Whatever happened to this?

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?262399-I-got-a-theory-on-splits


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

deejaycee said:


> What you have done isn't a walk-away split. It's a 'strip a bunch of bees off and see if they die'.


That is why I called it a divide. A walk away split doesn't require anything as described on MB's site, just deal the boxes. If I put them back on the main hive then it is just an inspection. If I put the third box on the first box and the second box on the main hive it will be as described on MB's site. If I add queens than what is it? Lots of options with bees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Like many beekeepers I know, people change their minds when it comes down to doing, as opposed to planning to do.


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## the kid (Nov 26, 2006)

drones can not breed the queen til they are around 10 days old they need time to become breeders and you need more then just a few ,,, so if you have no drones now , I would wait to split .. but thats me ..


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

So did you find eggs anywhere yet?

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I felt if I waited the split would have been done by nature. I had one hive to start with. I expect to still have one hive if things don't work out. As far as I am concerned these are free bees, they made it through the winter. It isn't like this would be the first time I have killed bees.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Just keep an eye out for brood, nectar flow, pollen, drones, and queen cells.

That'll be your cue.

Me, I like the old rhyme: 'A split in May is worth a bale of hay. A split in June is worth a silver spoon, a split in July, isn't worth a fly." 

It didn't cover April or August. I can't rhyme them either.

I guess you just have to buy mated queens in April or August.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You should loose your Doctorate for mangling.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

If you can not find eggs are larvae you are going to have a dead hive.... so none of the boxes except for the deep have eggs or larvae?


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## Nate Ellis (Jun 28, 2008)

Ive learned the hard way that making early divides or splits in a NY April is often hard enough with a mated queen because of the huge temp and weather fluctuations. That is at least where I am located in the north.


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## jaybees (Jun 7, 2010)

Acebird-Can I suggest that you wear a bee suit next time. You might want to join a local bee club where posting is not allowed.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Acebird, the situation is still salvagable if you'll get some eggs/larva in those divides. Or, buy some queens or queen cells from a local queen producer. Do it soon or face a couple hives of laying workers; open brood will hold them off. Next time though, if you want to stave off a swarm situation take the old queen and some brood and stores and use them to make a new split. Leave all the queen cells in the old hive. This will make the old hive believe that a swarm has left and they'll get on with life, with a new queen. If you leave the old queen in the old hive they're still going to swarm, and making all the divides in Christendom is not going to stop them.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

A swarm in April is worth a coat of sable.

A swarm in August is worth a pound of sawdust. 

(I claim copyrights on those.)


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Those are all "pre Almond". 
A box of bees on March 8 is just about a month late.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

fish_stix said:


> If you leave the old queen in the old hive they're still going to swarm,


Then how does reversals, checkerboarding, and dividing the brood nest work? Yeah, I post a lot, but I also read a lot. I know most of the theories based on reading. But I haven't got that crystal ball down yet. Things are always different than what I expect when I go into the hive.
The critical mistake I made in all of this is not yanking out that darn deep when I had a chance in early spring. Now it seems like the only place that I have eggs and larvae is in that deep where I can't use them. This is not going to happen next year.

Edit: A swarm in April is a whole new fable.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Ace; the manipulations you mentioned, reversals, checkerboarding etc. are done prior to the bees making swarm preps in an effort to preclude swarm preps. Once they have made swarm preps those manipulations are pretty much a useless endeavor, although nothing with bees is a 100%, poured in concrete law. When you see cells, assume the bees are going to swarm, so you either have to do it for them in a controlled swarm (split) or sit back, wait and enjoy taking some videos of a swarm in progress and hope you can catch them. There is one thing that's 100% sure bet: bees are gonna swarm! Down here in FL it's a year round phenomena, we had swarms in Jan this year. Where you live it's probably mostly a spring event and you can prepare for it every year, without fail.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Well so far I haven't had a year that was like any year previous so there is always next year.
I think normally it is a late spring and early summer event here but this year is not normal (seems like anywhere).


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

So ACE... what ya gonna do? I think I would just put them back together.... maybe not too late.. Shame to waste that many bees...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Anybody want them? Come and get them. I will trade you some bees for a queen. I am going to wait it out and see if what I think is sealed brood is indeed sealed brood. It is too cold and windy today and we have crap weather coming for the weekend so I don't know when I can get in there again.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I would list walk away splits as the least intervening style of beekeeping. What say you?


The problem is, you didn't do a walk-away split. There are no eggs in your split. I don't know that you even did a divide - a divide is just that, dividing a colony, and providing the divide with a queen or queen cell, leaving the original queen in the donor hive.

I wonder how many beeks would give a right arm for a booming hive right now? They're the ones that make the large honey crops. If there are "too many bees" for the colony, you practice swarm control, and super super super, giving them _space_. 
Regards,
Steven


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If caps look and feel papery they are brood cappings. If they look and feel waxy, they are capping cells of honey. If you scratch them w/ your hive tool and find honey under them, well, obviously. If not, t'other.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

ACE... if this were my hive and I had strong reasons to move them all into mediums (injured back?)... I would dig into that deep and capture the queen.... place a queen excluder on the deep and pile the mediums back on top... then release the queen into the mediums... it will not take long till you have eggs and young larvae in those mediums.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Well so far I haven't had a year that was like any year previous so there is always next year.



"any previous year"
I thought that this was your second Winter with bees. 

So "any previous year" is actually, just last year...


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

StevenG said:


> I wonder how many beeks would give a right arm for a booming hive right now? n


I am a not so experienced bee keeper. This'll be my 6th year and my third with more than 20 hives in the main part of the season. We're running mostly mediums now, my 130# wife cannot lift the full deeps,and I don't miss them much either. 

We had booming hives this weekend too. Every super we took off had top bars boiling with bees. We worked methodically and slowly and located as many queens as we could, about 8/11 hives we worked on. We relocated the queens to a new bottom super 1 or two frames of capped brood and about 6 more frames of drawn comb. We separated the queens from the brood in a classic prevention gambit. 

The rest of the hives where queens couldn't be found were checker-boarded (more or less) or we inserted a queen excluder in the brood nest hopes of going back and locating the queen more easily by being able to deduce her location since she can only be on one side of the excluder at a time. 

We're trying spraying the bees down with 1:1 sugar water & HBH before resorting to smoke and finding it works pretty well. It kept the bees from running too much, but if the inspection went on long enough we had to use smoke. I think it's also a better spot treatment than smoke, it really will stop a handful of bees before taking off. 

We had a more experienced bee keeper come and work with us to help us to learn to locate queen bees, and now can do it sort of. As suggested else where we belong to our local bee club and go there and listen a lot. Nothing beats talking to old hands that live local. 

I have to say, that even though I am a librarian, reading does not really help me understand bees forehand, but helps me sort out my observations afterwards. 

In spite of anything anyone may know in theory practice makes perfect. My goal this year is to become a good queen spotter so I can effectively and profitably prevent swarms. I think one practical skill that separates good beekeepers from the not-so good is the ability to find queens and make use of that skill.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> If you scratch them w/ your hive tool and find honey under them, well, obviously. If not, t'other.


 I knew it was only a matter of time... I had that thought two days ago. I was sure it was brood but after a couple of days of thinking about this I couldn't explain why there would be no eggs or open brood around a perfect solid pattern with at least 1 inch of empty cells around that. So maybe it is pollen or honey? I thought to myself, why didn't you just scratch some of those cells? I guess that is another acebird. Rest assured I will not forget to check that way next time. 

Would nurse bees be jammed packed around capped honey or pollen? Tomorrow it is going to be 61 with much less wind so maybe I can get in there to scratch some cells.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> :
> 
> Would nurse bees be jammed packed around capped honey or pollen? Tomorrow it is going to be 61 with much less wind so maybe I can get in there to scratch some cells.


Naw... sounds like brood to me... I wonder if there are not eggs and brood in that 1 inch area of "Empty" cells. If your vision is not "Super"... take a magnifying glass with you... a close inspection may well reveal tiny eggs and little larvae... all uncapped... and that's what you are interested in.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

hpm08161947 said:


> I would dig into that deep and capture the queen....


Herb, that is easy for you to say, you can spot a queen I can't unless it has a big painted dot on it.
The day I did the divide I put an empty box of drawn comb on top of the deep with the hopes that the queen would run up there and do her thing. I also did it for space because I knew all the foragers would be coming back. Tomorrow makes the fifth day so maybe there is something in there.



> I thought that this was your second Winter with bees.


You'd be wrong.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I tried looking Herb but my eyes are not good anymore. That is why I was disappointed when the camera quit. Anytime I go into the hive I try to use the camera so I can blow up the photo. I use to have a camera that used double "A" then I didn't have to worry about the charge.

The trouble I have with a magnifying glass is the veil gets in the way and I can't move the glass in and out of view without removing the veil. I suppose I could have sacrificed one frame and removed the bees so I could take it to the house and looked but I didn't think of that either.

Does it make any sense that there would not be a progression of larvae? Does a queen normally lay a solid circle in the frames and then go to another box?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> Does it make any sense that there would not be a progression of larvae? Does a queen normally lay a solid circle in the frames and then go to another box?


The bees clean off a big circle for her to lay in... I see it a lot. That 1 inch circle of nothing around it most likely has eggs and uncapped larvae... at least it is a good possibility... that is why you need to find a Magnifying glass... jeweler's loop... it will come in handy. Capped larvae will not do you any good.... it's the eggs and very young larvae that you want... confirmation soon is necessary.... else just pile them back together and come back for another attempt later. I do not know your climate.... but think you are very early.

Finding the queen only takes one thing... persistence.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Thanks Herb.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Sometimes one will have a frame w/ a band of honey along the top bar above an arch of apparently empty comb. And it may be empty comb. Freshly polished cells ready for a queen to lay in. Look and look and all you will see is a shiny cell bottom, wondering if that reflection is an egg or not. If you look that hard and wonder if it is an egg or not, it isn't. It's just the sunlight reflected off the bottom of the cell.

When you see eggs, you will know it. It will be like a light going off in your brain. You'll seemost of those little white short threads sticking up from the bottom of the cells all leaning the same direction, except some arent.

It's much easier to see young larvae, just the first or second day from the egg. The brood food looks like an amorphous fog in the bottoms of the cells.

Unless you need to kill a queen or know for sure that you have confined her to a particular box, one doesn't need to see queens as much as the evidence of her work. I don't spend a lot of time looking for queens. I manipulate the equipment to get the queen where I want her.

Acebird,
I am not certain what you were doing or what your goal was, but I think you could have done many things differently. Which is easy for me to say from here. Isn't there anyone from Mid-York who would give you a hand?

Too many bees to be able to put a frame back in? Nope, smoke them and slowly put the frame back in and they will move out of the way and the frame will go back in just fine.

Another trick is to always remove the second frame first, standing it up against the hive. Then go thru the rest of the frames replacing them as you go, but pulling them close to you as you put them back in. Once you are done doing what you were doing, using your hive tool, slide the frames away from you back where they came from. Then put that last frame back in. You can even take out the first frame after removing the second one first.

I like to remove the second frame first for a cpl reasons. After the covers are off and one has broken the bond between the bottom super and the one above, I pry the frames away from the side which I am standing closest to and then break the joint between the first and second frame and the second and third frame. The second frame is a better angle to pry up and prying down on the box can be hard on the box. Oft times there is comb on the first frame bridged to the inside of the box, making it hard to remove.

I hope some of that makes sense and helps. Some times I don't do much of what I described and I relearn why I should have.  I'm always learning the same lessons over and over again. And I have never experienced one year like the previous. They are all different. Ain't life grand?


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## jaybees (Jun 7, 2010)

Acebird-Get a magnifying glass 2-3 bucks. Read these posts,everyone is trying to help you and you are getting good advice. Decide what you are going to do first, (read marks post) then do it
slowly, look and you will learn alot. When you are looking for eggs and larva, try keeping the sun at your back shining over your shoulder,it helps with the glare. Good Luck!


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

I've had trouble spotting queens, because they like to travel UNDER the other bees around them. Like snakes in tall grass!
They usually don't hang out on combs where everyone's spread out, or one deep.


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

Steven Ogborn said:


> I've had trouble spotting queens,


\\

Concentrate your attention where eggs that are standing up are. Look around the edge of the brood nest. Look for the waddle. Don't worry as much about the shape as the motion. 

Use a little puff of breath to clear clusters of bees. 

When you find a queen on a frame (finally!) turn it over and then back again and find her again. 

It's a very, very useful skill


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

Well, I'm getting better and can usually find them nowadays. I'm getting used to remembering where to look.
Those virgins are pretty fast.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

As one gets better at keeping bees, as Mark (sqkcrk) indicates, you don't need to find the queen all the time, just evidence of her work. You'll learn to consider the brood pattern, presence of eggs/larvae, and sometimes, all you have to do is watch the entrance. If very active, and lots of pollen coming in, pretty good indication the colony is queen right. Great thing about bees is that the learning never stops.

And as Adam mentions, a little puff of breathe clears bees away so you can find the queen sometimes. However, for those of you who don't wear veils, that might not be too good an idea. 
Regards,
Steven


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Ace, 
Yesterday I split a nuc off of a hive in Elmira. I've got Drones flying here, and a fair amount of capped drone brood.

My eyesight isn't so great either, and seeing eggs or first day larva is quite a challenge. 
What I did was follow the progression of brood age from capped to large larva to the first row of cells where I couldn't see well enough to to determine whether there were eggs or day old larva. I assumed these were eggs and/or <day old, as there was a clear progression of brood age on the comb. If the queen chose that row to switch combs on, I guess I'll be moving another comb in tomorrow when I check for Q cells.
To encourage cell production, I also broke the bottom cell wall on several cells in that row a la MDA splitter.
I hadn't been able to find the queen when doing the manipulation, so I closed everything up and went to lunch. I closed the nuc entrance when I did.

When I got back from lunch, there were a half dozen foragers sitting on the nuc vents, so I suspected I had the queen in there.
To find out, I spread a sheet on the ground, and put one edge on top of a rubbermaid container that the nuc was on, anchoring it with the nuc.

Then I took out a frame at a time, and shook all of the bees onto the sheet in front of the nuc.
Since the bees naturally tend to climb up, there was soon a procession of bees marching up to the nuc...and sure enough there was the queen, easy to spot on the sheet with only one layer of bees walking into the nuc.

I caught her and moved her to the original hive.

If I had day old larva, I should have queen cells started by tomorrow. Eggs should be starting cells by Thursday.
If there are none, I will pull a frame from the nuc and try again with a frame from the mother hive.

If I get several cells, I'll put a couple in a mating nuc and be up soon to take you up on that trade you offered.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Beregondo said:


> If I get several cells, I'll put a couple in a mating nuc and be up soon to take you up on that trade you offered.


Hey that would be super. Maybe you could look inside my hive and tell me if I am really whacked about what I can't see.

Mark, I usually go after the first frame for two reasons: 1) To me the box is stronger then the top bar to pry against. 2) The first frame is usually not glued in as much as the middle frames. The space between the first frame is the largest when you shove all the frames together. If there is comb attached it is usually like tissue paper so I just slip the hive tool next to the box to cut it off. I also feel it is the least likely place for the queen to bee. (I am doing pretty good at killing bees).
Now what I was doing differently was pulling frames out and putting them in another empty box. When I get half way through the box I would get bees boiling over both boxes. Sometimes smoke would make them go back down in and other times it would just tick them off. If you return the frames to the original box (minus 1) doesn't that just give the queen a chance to double back and go onto a frame that you already inspected? I used to put the first frame on the side of the hive but since I made a hive queenless and lost it I don't do that anymore. Your time is valuable. With over 500 hives you can't diddle around like I can. Besides if you lose one out of 500 that is .5%. If I lose one out of one that is 100%.

You don't have to worry about finding the queen until you have to. People are telling me I have to find the queen. Can't have it both ways.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What people are telling you that you have to find the queen? Why do you need to find the queen? What are you going to do w/ her when you find her?


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Acebird; being an old f__t I have probably the same vision challenges as you. Get a pair of cheapo reading glasses at the drug store, 2X or 3X. Put them on when you don your veil. If you don't need them normally just remove them and let them lay in the bottom of the veil while you're working. Put them on when you need to be able to see eggs/larva. They're always immediately available but out of the way. And get a sweat band to go with them!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

fish_stix said:


> And get a sweat band to go with them!


Yeah, now your talking. I have vari lense glasses so any sweat at all hits the only useful part of the lens and I am blind. Luckily it only happened to my bad eye so I didn't lose much vision.

Mark the reason to find the queen is to put her with the split or see if she is there already but I am very reluctant to go snapping that hair clip at my only queen anyway. If I can get to a point where I can sustain a couple of hives then I might try my luck.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

If you are afraid of hurting the queen with a clip, get a match box. The size that diamond packs 300 large kitchen matches in.
It's easy to scoop the Q into such a large box, and all it takes is a little shake to keep her out of the way while you slide the over-wrap sleeve shut. To release her to ahive she is already accepted in, just invert the box over the inner cover hole if you are afraid of losing her.

I don't usually look for the queen, tho making a split I do, but don't spend a lot of time on it.

Not seeing her in a split I just make the split.
I'll see queen cells (if I left eggs/ young larvae) or irritable bees in the queenless part. 

And within three days, I'll see larvae in the queen right part. 
Then I know where the Q is, and can make any necessary adjustments.
That's still time to get a queen started by exchanging a frame of proper aged brood with the queen right hive.

I'm hip to needing a sweatband to keep sweat of the specs.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

ACE... how does this sound? Stack those mediums back up. Order (or somehow obtain) 2 queens... shucks... it would not surprise me that someone on here would send you 2... gratis. With the 2 new queens.... take your mediums off... being sure they are full of bees and insert your new queen... no worries about eggs and larvae. This eventually will give you 3 colonies and confidence to deal with that final deep at some point.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Unless you are willing Herb, I think it a stretch to think someone will just send him $40.00 or $50.00 plus shipping. If they are already seperated, let them be. They will either raise a queen in each or they will get robbed out.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Unless you are willing Herb, I think it a stretch to think someone will just send him $40.00 or $50.00 plus shipping..


Yea.. it's a stretch. But sometimes, some guys get some pretty nice queens sent to them... seems like I saw one of the recently  But probably not ACE... probably be good for their Karma, though.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ok guys update:
It didn't get to 61 like the weatherman promised. It just made it to the fifties. I went in anyway and the brood was brood and there is some larvae in the empty cells next to it. The best news is in one box I saw four or five queen cells with larvae in them. You were right Herb, I put on my headset magnifiers and adjusted them for the reading position so I could look over them with out magnification. The veil just fit over them and the focal point was 1 1/2 to 2 inches form the veil so I could see good.

Beregondo, Thanks for the offer but now I can wait it out and see if either one of these divides make it. It is good to know you were willing to trade anyway. Maybe sometime in the future it will happen.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ace if the other split has no brood or queen cells, move some of those queen cells to it. Soon, before they hatch.

Also, it's likely some of those queen cells will be low quality. Kill the smallest, leave the two best in each split.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

hpm08161947 said:


> Yea.. it's a stretch. But sometimes, some guys get some pretty nice queens sent to them... seems like I saw one of the recently  But probably not ACE... probably be good for their Karma, though.


I know what you are refering to. Maybe some nice queen rearer w/ a soft heart will proive me wrong. But, at the risk of being offensive, the guy that sent me some queens might feel sending queens to Ace not as much of an investment or enticement. Mine are still alive.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> Ace if the other split has no brood or queen cells, move some of those queen cells to it. Soon, before they hatch.


I'm contemplating throwing the other box of bees on top of the one that has queen cells. What do you think?

Hey Mark, I notice you didn't offer me any queens. See if I help you next fall. I am only kidding. I wouldn't risk any queens on me either. Let's see what the bees do on their own. That's the way I like it anyway.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I'm contemplating throwing the other box of bees on top of the one that has queen cells. What do you think?
> 
> .


I like what OLDTIMER is suggesting. A good learning opportunity... Better do it soon though.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Hey Mark, I notice you didn't offer me any queens. See if I help you next fall. I am only kidding.


Can't offer what I don't have. 

I think you should leave alone what you have alrerady done. Too much messin' around haphazardly will not result in what you might wish.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Well here is where I differ. Think about this, you what me to make a choice on which one would be the better queen vs. the bees making the choice. I'll take odds on the bees with this one. The only choice I got to make is eating crow and feeding them form here on out.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't want you to do anything but let what you have already done take its course.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Good God,do we think alike? How can that be?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Acebird said:


> I'm contemplating throwing the other box of bees on top of the one that has queen cells. What do you think?


 No.



Acebird said:


> Well here is where I differ. Think about this, you what me to make a choice on which one would be the better queen vs. the bees making the choice. I'll take odds on the bees with this one.


 Dissagree. Realise this. The situation the bees are in did not come about naturally, you did it to them. Under these circumstances they have done the best they can. But it's not their choice, or their way of doing things, and therefore the worst of the queen cells are likely second rate.

Also, while unnessecary meddling can sometimes do more harm than good, leaving a hopelessly queenless hive alone can only result in it's eventual demise, nothing to lose by meddling. Having said that, I know where Mark is coming from, he's thinking it just might be possible it is not hopelessly queenless, or / and that further meddling may interfere with the other split that could, without meddling, be successful. (i think).


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I'm thinking, enuf harm has been done. I'm also thinking that it is possible that there are queen cells being made in the queenless parts and that there is a queen in one of the other parts and in one or more of the other parts nothing will come of them and the honey will be robbed.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

All this intervention has me tired out. I would be enough to drive a sane man crazy.

It's a good thing I don't know much, I just make sure every hive of bees has eggs and something to eat. 

Got to go, all this "clanging gong and noisy cymbal" hurts my head.

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Don't blame your tinietis on this Thread. It's all in your head.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> ...people change their minds when it comes down to doing, as opposed to planning to do.


This is so very true. 

Adam


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Its rainy here so I need to brighten up the day 
What about an Update


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Cool and rainy here too. Good day to move bees to orchards.

Oh, did you mean an Acebird Update? Mean.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

The overnight temperatures are predicted to be in the low 30's this week at Ace's apiary.

Acebird joked when I mentioned chilled brood.

This would be the point when I would run out and stack everything back up.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Live and let die and learn.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Live and let die and possibly learn.


The "Ace" motto

This rain should help our terrible nector flows 
hoping for a few days of it


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

tommyt said:


> The "Ace" motto


Well they are not dead. I just got back from our first run camping expedition and checked if the one box ate anymore syrup. They did not so feeding does not appear to be what they need. I moved the pint jar to the other split just to see if they are interested for the heck of it.

Oh, I am sorry, I thought you guys were serious. You just want to make fun of a newbie. OK, I can live with that. BTW the parent hive is still going gangbusters in the cold rain. Must be they are not wimps.

I don't know whether to take you jokesters serious about the cool inclement weather warning. I didn't bother with the protective garb or smoke and when I didn't see the level of the syrup drop I thought they might of died out so I pull the top box off and there they were all clustered in the center. No bees came out to get me. It was like they didn't care.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Probably too cool for them to be taking syrup.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I assume you mean that they are clustered so they won't get to it but it wasn't cool Friday when we left. The cold front hit around mid day Saturday.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

If it's too cool the bees won't take syrup. The temperature of the syrup should be 50°F (or more) according to MB.

Are the SBB's and entrances still wide open with snow predicted?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If you saw them clustered, they won't take syrup. Ambient temps have to be warm enuf for the colony to get to the syrup. A hive top feeder is not useful at this time of year. The bees have to travel too far to get to it. Jars right on the top bars above the cluster work best this time of year.

You got away w/ opening thew hive w/out equipment because they were clustered. I just loaded my truck and trailer w/out smoker or veil. Conditions are right for doing that. Though some of the stronger colonies w/ bees near the entrance or boresd hole in the hive body did come out to pester me when tightening down the straps.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

How do you explain the parent hive coming and going like gang busters? They didn't come after me either. I think they are clustering to protect the brood but what the heck do I know.

beeC., Nope. SBB are wide open. They got to toughen up for next winter otherwise they are worthless to me. You think I am going to run an extension out there for an electric blanket? I will say there has been quite a few dead bees at the entrance on both the splits. Before I left I actually saw one crawl out slowly and fall over the edge. It reminded me of the old western flick when the cowboy got shot and they dragged out the scene before he fell to the ground.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes, clustering protects the brood.

The field bees went back to the parent colony when you split them.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> They got to toughen up for next winter otherwise they are worthless to me.


More _wisdom_ from Acebird. 

Regardless of what you do or don't do, *none* of the bees in your hive(s) are likely to be alive by next winter, except [_possibly_] the queen. 

If you doubt that, here's a reference that includes typical bee lifetimes:
http://www.uni.illinois.edu/~stone2/bee_life_stages.html


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

"they" refers to the colony.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> The field bees went back to the parent colony when you split them.




Field bees don't cluster?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Acebird:

Don't worry about it. You tried to jump the gun, and you learned something new.

Don't think for a second that there aren't other beekeepers who haven't made similar types of mistakes. You were betting that the timing was right, but you were too early.

Just put the hive back together when you get a chance.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

There may be queen cells started so he shouldn't just put the hive together. What's done is done so ride it out and learn.
I keep SBB open year round on some hives so as long as you have enough bees in each split they should be fine.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ditto JD. Just what I said. Let it be.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Field bees don't cluster?


Yes, Acebird, they do. They also return to the original location which they came from when you split this colony in the manner you did. How far away did you move the boxes you took from the original hive?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Field bees don't cluster?


Yes, back in the parent hive...

When you say "the colony" what are you refering to? The three divided boxes, or the parent hive.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Are there any new pics?

Any updates or changes?


http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=/watch?v=glC9_8Ijt9k&v=glC9_8Ijt9k&gl=US


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Not Joking just so you Know 

Anyway 2 weeks how are things going ........................?
Maybe you can determine who has the Queen, I think parent hive does as you said they are still gang busters 
maybe you can take (queen cells if made ) and put in the box that has none 
They should be hatching real soon.......... work fast


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I have to wait until Sunday or Monday. It is very cold and spitting snow right now.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I have to wait until Sunday or Monday. It is very cold and spitting snow right now.


Spring is such a cruel time of the year in the North... I remember it... next comes Mud Season.. or is it already there... I forget. Of course... July and Aug are really sweet. 

Don't hurry... but I'm curious too...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I don't think we are going to get mud season this year. Too dry, no winter thaw.

Usually May through October are very nice. August has a couple of hot and humid weeks that bother some people.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

The following is from another thread but it's more appropriate to post this here...



Acebird said:


> I think it comes back to colonies are individuals. They have an organized way of doing things but that doesn't mean there is just one way. As a hobbyist with just a few hives I don't think what you learn from one hive can necessarily be applied to another.





BeeCurious said:


> Acebird,
> 
> On April 13th you had one hive. You took it apart, you now have three boxes with possibly bees in all three.
> 
> A box with some bees in it is not automatically considered a hive.





Acebird said:


> When is it considered a hive?





BeeCurious said:


> White woodenware stacked up on stands could be identified as "beehives" by people driving by in a car. In the context of this forum, I believe most beekeepers would consider a hive to be a well populated queenright colony inhabiting full sized woodenware.
> 
> Your additional boxes wouldn't qualify as nucs until you have laying queens and different stages of brood. So if they have not attained the qualities of nucs, they certainly aren't "hives".
> 
> If there are viable q-cells you might call them mating nucs. If that's not the case, I would suggest that what you have is closer to being stacks of woodenware, than "hives".


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Is is snowing or is an Update in the making 


BeeCurious I fully understand your post 
Maybe a CT thing as I spend my first 20 on this planet up there


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeC, the first quote you copied and pasted into this thread is not relevant IMO.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

tommyt said:


> Is is snowing or is an Update in the making


Weather update. It seemed like we had gale force winds out of the north pole. Thermometer made it to about 50 but it felt like 29. Some bees were out para sailing though.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Thermometer made it to about 50 but it felt like 29

I guess that meant _NO inspection_??


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> BeeC, the first quote you copied and pasted into this thread is not relevant IMO.


You said you have three hives ... maybe you will one day.

It may require more "non intervention beekeeping" than you have time for ...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Yes, tommyt I looked from the outside ... Alright I pulled the outer cover off and confirmed there were bees in the "stack of boxes".


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