# overwintering with empty deep over innercover



## allrawpaul (Jun 7, 2004)

Water condensation tends to be extreme in the damp puget sound area. I hope to keep the hives drier this winter by using an empty deep box over the inner cover. This also makes it convenient to feed pollen substitute and syrup. I thought the deeps would reduce moisture in the hive, but Allready I have noticed that the lid is still very wet and dripping onto the inner cover. I dont really want to drill a bunch of holes in my deeps but that seems neccessary. I am thinking of drilling one 3/4" hole (just the size for a wine cork) close to the top of each side and stapling screen over the holes. Anyone tried this? Thanks for any comments. , Paul.


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## DoubleB (Sep 23, 2006)

It is my understanding that the if they can get above cover they will burr comb up there and not just leave the empty space empty. A piece of 1" styrofoam under cover will curtail the condensation. Good luck!


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Try placing the inner cover on top of the empty box.

To help regulate moisture and keep condensate off of the cluster, try granular sugar on paper on the top bars.

http://www.mountaincampfarm.com/wst_page5.php

The granular sugar forces the warm moist air toward the walls of the boxes and up.

Any condensate that forms on the walls will be used by the cluster or roll down the sides and out the bottom. Any condensate that forms on the top will fall on the sugar and be absorbed.

The cluster will also use the sugar as feed.

With the inner cover below the box, any condensate that forms falls back into the hive. The vertical air flow is restricted to the center hole.

The cluster will not build burr comb in the box or on top of the frames till the spring when things get movong again.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Mountain:

Do you have a pound rate of sugar that you put on each hive? And do you feed liquid sugar all year around?


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

oh.. one more question. when do you decide to put the granulated sugar in the hive?


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I feed light syrup from about now to the end of November / beginning of December.
I place granular sugar on in the fall and keep it on till spring and foraging weather has returned. I many times have syrup, granular sugar, and pollen substitute in a hive all at the same time.
I place about 5# to 10# on the paper to start, depending on how much the hive is working it.
I start feeding syrup again toward the end of February till about the end of April / beginning of May, when foraging weather returns.
I do my spring splits toward the end of April for queen mating about the time of swarming.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

is there usually left over sugar when you make your splits and if so, what do you do with it? You all get snow, eh?


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Yes, I either use it to make syrup, or bag it for the fall.

If a mouse has gotten to it, I dump it.

A bag or two of granular sugar is cheap compared to a package.

We get on average around 150" of snow in a season.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Does the sugar syrup freeze on you?


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I have found that light syrup on the top bars does not freeze until the temperatures drop well into the low teens.I wrap the hive with black felt paper for wind protection and solar gain. Colonies will use feeder jars with daytime temperatures in the mid 20's and higher on sunny days. The weak sunshine of December and January do not add much solar gain here, but by the end of February and March with the sun gaining strength it does make a difference.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

some say that feeders leak at lower temps which can be harmful to the cluster. Have you seen this happen?


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## xC0000005 (Nov 17, 2004)

I noticed the same thing a few days ago on a few of my hives - serious condensation, even with a 1/8 spacer for ventilation. I'll be giving the sugar a try.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

One beekeeper, when I used to live in Eugene, Or placed a hove body on top of the inner cover and used straw and it worked nicely.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

allrawpaul said:


> This also makes it convenient to feed pollen substitute and syrup. I thought the deeps would reduce moisture in the hive, but Allready I have noticed that the lid is still very wet and dripping onto the inner cover.


yes it does make it convenient for feeding if you need to feed. if you don't need to feed and don't want to use the empty deep, try putting a shim or something between the inner and outer covers to open it up just a little to help out with the ventilation. you can cover the ventilation hole with screen to keep out moths and shim it up more if you need more ventilation to keep it dry. those plastic telescoping outer covers are built so they sit off of the inner lid to allow for ventilation unlike the wood ones. i leave mine propped up for ventilation year round.



DoubleB said:


> It is my understanding that the if they can get above cover they will burr comb up there and not just leave the empty space empty


i wouldn't worry about them building any comb in the empty deep over the winter.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Inverted Jars and Pails, create a vacuum seal to keep the syrup from running out. 
The daily thermal cycling that a hive under goes, can change the internal air volume of the vacuum seal. A 10f change in the internal air temperature would change the volume by about 2%.
So when the cooling takes place, the internal air volume decreases and draws additional air in. When the internal air heats it increases in volume and forces some syrup out.
The larger the air volume, the greater the effect.
That said, if there is significant leakage, it is usually associated with a bad seal, or holes too large, some factor other than the thermal cycling.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

<I dont really want to drill a bunch of holes in my deeps but that seems neccessary. I am thinking of drilling one 3/4" hole (just the size for a wine cork) close to the top of each side and stapling screen over the holes. Anyone tried this? Thanks for any comments. , Paul.>

I use a small hole in most of my boxes as a combination upper entrance and ventilation, no need to screen it unless you are feeding and robbing occurs. If you don't want to drill the boxes, try placing a wedge on each side between the inner cover and the telescoping lid.


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## Scott J. (Feb 6, 2007)

If you have screened bottom boards, pull the tray out and leave it open all winter. Also put a 3/4 inch shim at the back of the bottom board. If you get any excess moiture it will run forward on the inner cover and then down and out the front enterence. I live in the convergence zone and get a bit more rain than you do in Edmonds. I have been using this setup and find that I have little to no moisture on the inner cover. On the migratory covers I tend to have a little more moisture though. I am experimenting with the extra deep and putting a 25 lb bag of sugar in this winter on some of my hives. One nice thing about the 25 lb bag is it fits almost perfect.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Scott:

I will also be trying the granulated sugar idea this year. I did buy a bag of driverts sugar from Puratos in Seattle. We will see how that works out. Should be a good side by side comparason.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Mountain:

Why not feed with sugar syrup all through december and Jan? Why light syrup versus 2:1?


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## Jeff McGuire (Nov 18, 2005)

I live in Rhode Island near the coast and we have a lot of fog and moisture throughout the winter. Last year I used a medium body above the inner cover, I filled that with crumpled newspaper and then layed a piece of burlap across the body and hung it out the sides putting the outer cover over it. The newspaper helps to absorb the moisture and the burlap wicks it out. I put fondant on the inner cover which they could get to on the warmer days. I didnt lose any colonies last winter. BTW this is not my idea I copied it from someone one here who deserves the credit. Cant remember who but I owe them my thanks as I will this every year.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

"Why not feed with sugar syrup all through december and Jan? Why light syrup versus 2:1?"

We get into the -20'sF range during winter with the monthly average lows being in the single digits for January and February. We have periods were the high for the days is below zero.

I just gets too cold to feed syrup or fot them to use it.

I feed light syrup to stimulate brood rearing in fall and late winter / early spring.


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

Mountaincamp, I have been following your posts for quite some time with much interest since we have about the same weather. I've also looked at your website and appreciate the pictures you've put up. This year I am going to follow your advice and wrap hives and feed them as you do. I feel that my overall survival rate will go up. Thanks


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## yoyo (Jun 13, 2007)

Is there a temperature change at which the moisture is formed? We know the bees keep a certain temp for the cluster. This is the source of the moisture, the bees exhale it. I wonder at what outside temp does the condensation form. Has anyone ever tried putting a electronic thermometer/hrydrometer inside a hive to record the changes over a winter? This would be a great experiment.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

*Condensate formation*

Condensate is formed when the moisture / water vapor load in the air exceeds it's ability to hold it in vapor form.
An example of this is dew, frost, fog and clouds. The water vapor in the air is greater than the vapor capacity and forms condensate / droplets as the air cools.
As air cools - it's ability to hold water vapor decreases. It about halves for every 20F drop in temperature. So, air at the clustering temperature in winter can hold 17.124 grains of water vapor @ 95F. Air at 40F can only hold 2.849, 30F = 1.958 grains, 20F = 1.321 grains, 10F = 0.873 grains
A pound of water is 7,000 grains.
Condensate in a hive can form from (2) source, with ambient air exchange. IE a warm moist air entering a cold hive. A winter warm front and a hive filled with stores that has been sitting in much colder temps. 
The second source is the cluster's use and consumption of stores. When the cluster consumes stores to generate heat and survive, it releases a significant amount of water vapor from the metabolism of the sugars. This is where most of the condensate is generated from.
This warm moist air rises in the hive and contacts cold surfaces and forms condensate when it is cooled below the vapor capacity.
So the actual temperature at which condensate forms varies based on the RH of the air coming into the hive and the rate of stores consumption.


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## LEAD PIPE (May 22, 2005)

I am interested in your over wintering techniques. The sugar in your pictures looks like it’s in a chunk because it's not falling through the frames. Is this the case and if so how do you make it like that? With the 3rd empty deep on the hive it seems like there is a lot of space for the bees to heat, is my thinking flawed on that?

Thanks
John


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## dug_6238 (May 9, 2007)

*IN-hive temperature not maintained*

My first year I got really hung up on thinking that the bees heated the inside of the hive. It's just really not the case. While they heat the inside of the cluster some heat may be thrown off that raises the ambient temperature of the hive slightly, but they really don't heat the hive. Only the center/inside of the cluster is heated. The outside of the cluster and the air surrounding it may be quite chilly in fact.

I think what you're looking for now is the correlation between the temperature of the outer portions of the cluster, the air surrounding it and the rate of change at which condensation levels within your hive boxes change...IF I understand the conversation correctly.

BUT, Lead Pipe - I think you are headed in the right direction though by thinking about the inner hive area. The colony must be able to regulate moisture levels within the boxes. This ties directly into how much space you give them, how many boxes, and what type of exits/vent points.

Hope this helps. Very good thread, and very good info. Thank you all, ladies and gents.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

John:

He uses news paper to hold the sugar up.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

The dry sugar will actually take on moisture in the hive which will make the sugar harder throughtout the time it is being used.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

As stated, I place a sheet of paper on the top bars and the granular sugar on top of that. The granular sugar will absorb moisture when the air is moist and releave water vapor when dry. 
The clusters will actually get right up and into the sugar from the underside and eat their way up. They form caverns and tunnels in the harden sugar.
I also place bags of sugar for storage on top as well. These bags will also absorb and release moisture. When needed these brinks can be placed in the hive.
The temperature within inches of the cluster on the sides and below is basically the outside ambient temperature. The temperature above the hive is slightly warmer from the heat escaping from the cluster.
Here is some good info on the thermal profiles of the winter cluster: http://www.beesource.com/pov/usda/thermology/techbulletin1429.htm


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## denny (Aug 2, 2006)

MountainCamp........

thanks for posting the link to that Thermology article by Owens. Very interesting and informative.....


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

mountain:

a quick question... if you place paper on the top barr and por sugar in, where do you prefer the placement of the news paper? I am thinking that if the cluster is right below the paper, the feed would be useless.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I place the paper so that there is some space front and back of the sheets. This allows air to flow up and over the sheet and sugar. 

As far as the cluster being able to use sugar placed on paper above them, they will work around to the edges, as well as chew up through the paper to get to the sugar.

If you look at this picture it is what is left of the sugar pile and paper from late fall use, before the cluster moved down with the on set of cold weather. http://www.mountaincampfarm.com/wst_page5.php?idx=0&file=images/DSCF0366.jpg&&ID2=BjZ0I4

Here you can see them as they have worked their way up through the pile: http://www.mountaincampfarm.com/wst_page5.php?idx=9&file=images/DSCF3567.jpg&&ID2=BjZ0I4


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

How much of the sugar do you find on the bottom boards (or SBB) in the spring?


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

and have you put sugar on already?


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

The amount of sugar on a bottom board varies, from none to some. I do not worry much about some sugar on the bottom board that may have cost less than a buck, when the colony is alive in spring.

I have granular sugar on any of the hives that don't have supers on. Between work and the weather, I have not pulled all of the supers yet. Hopefully by next weekend, they will all be off.

I will be feeding them granular sugar and syrup till about early December and then just set with the sugar. The amount of syrup will depend on how they look.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

well Mountain.. just bought 200 pounds of sugar and ready to give thi a try. How many pound you usually put in a hive?


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I usually place 5-10 lbs to start with, adding more if needed.

Good luck and I hope it works well for you,


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

That is a good amount. I was hoping that the 200 pounds was going to last me a litlte while. How much you paying for sugar? It is around $18 for a 50 pound sack.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I usually just get 5# or 10# bags when they are on sale. They are about $1.90 - 2.10 depending on the brand & store.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

per pound?


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## Island Novice (Mar 18, 2006)

*Overwintering in Puget Sound*

Hi,
I live on Vashon Island in Washington. My first winter I had terrible condensation problems. Now I've switched to a screened bottom board, drill holes for ventilation and put a square of foam insulation on top of the hive. Worked very well. Elizabeth



allrawpaul said:


> Water condensation tends to be extreme in the damp puget sound area. I hope to keep the hives drier this winter by using an empty deep box over the inner cover. This also makes it convenient to feed pollen substitute and syrup. I thought the deeps would reduce moisture in the hive, but Allready I have noticed that the lid is still very wet and dripping onto the inner cover. I dont really want to drill a bunch of holes in my deeps but that seems neccessary. I am thinking of drilling one 3/4" hole (just the size for a wine cork) close to the top of each side and stapling screen over the holes. Anyone tried this? Thanks for any comments. , Paul.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Sorry, per 5# bag, so it runs about $0.40 per pound.


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Mountain: You ever have trouble with robbing?


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Island:

Hey there. I have had people ask me a lot if I wanted to put hives out there but I alwalsy think no way casue of the cost of the ferry over there.


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## golddust-twins (Sep 8, 2007)

*Overwintering in Puget Sound*



> Originally Posted by allrawpaul
> Water condensation tends to be extreme in the damp puget sound area. I hope to keep the hives drier this winter by using an empty deep box over the inner cover. This also makes it convenient to feed pollen substitute and syrup. I thought the deeps would reduce moisture in the hive, but Allready I have noticed that the lid is still very wet and dripping onto the inner cover. I dont really want to drill a bunch of holes in my deeps but that seems neccessary. I am thinking of drilling one 3/4" hole (just the size for a wine cork) close to the top of each side and stapling screen over the holes. Anyone tried this? Thanks for any comments. , Paul.


allrawpaul, read this information and see if it makes sense to you -- it did me. http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/ventilation.html 
I live on the Southern Oregon Coast which is rainy and damp. Last winter I had a wet hive and mold. Almost lost it. Upon surfing the web trying to find some answers I came across David Cushman's site. My hive is now raised 12" off the ground on a wooden bottom board, then a screened bottom board and a slanted board (with the slats running in the same direction as the brood foundation). My 2 hive bodies sit on top of these. I put a 1&1/2" shim because I like to feed patties, an inner cover. I am using a polystyrene roof I made this summer. So far when I pull the tray from the screened bottom board it is dry. It will be interesting to see how they fair this winter.

Corinne


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