# Sticky  GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.



## GregB

Not to pollute the "cost of treatment" topic anymore, putting it here.....

Granted, large-scale commercial way is different from a small-scale hobby way and has different priorities and methods used accordingly - most of us get it and so just get this out of the way.
There are also intermediate cases and we also get it and let us just skip this diversion.

Did it occur to anyone that there is more than one way get your own bee products (better be "clean" if do make them for yourself), still have the producing bees annually, and yet not be following the commercial ways of doing so (which depend on recurring medication)? 

So, the bee-die off is a part of my picture - I expect few colonies to die and I will appropriate their resources as I see fit.
The survivors will continue to be part of my hobby bee-selection process going forward.
The dead will have contributed to the human and bee nutrition programs.
Everything has purpose.

In the old time, people would have to kill few hives to get their honey. 
Here and now, the current environment does the same easily.
In fact, I want few of my hives to die so I am not the one choosing who to rob and who to spare.

So, in fact, I would rather have 5-6 of my current 14 colonies die (preferably the largest colonies and preferably as quickly as possible so to leave behind most of the resources).
I would also prefer most of my small/medium colonies to survive and serve as the 2019 season start ups (cheaper to winter; likely healthier being late nucs; the spring development does not much matter of the fall colony size anyway).

As of the moment, I hardly harvested any honey (only few pounds for the kids).
The year has been bad.
However, just a couple of strong dead-outs (sounds weird, ah?) should easily provide more than enough honey and uncontaminated perga for our annual consumption and give-away in lieu of rent payments.

So here you have it, a "politically-incorrect", inconvenient, agitating statement - I *want* some of my bees die. 

To be sure, I don't want ALL of my bees die, 50% survival would be fine with me and a good place to restart the next season.
Just letting the nature (including the mites) do the culling for me.
Hopefully, by Thanksgiving I get a few drop-offs - good riddance and some holiday crop for us.


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## msl

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

well no one responded, so I will bite
I have no issue with the harvest of a stock as a whole as a management method. Swarm beekeeping (skep style) has a long and successful history. It wasn't so long a go some northern keepers would do the same and harvest every thing and restock with packages in the spring, still done to some extent in AK from what I read
.IE on the small scale At $15 a pound premium for "local TF honey" one could see the break even at 10# of honey (cost of a replacement nuc in the spring). 

The question is then, Is it ethically raised. I would say no. Do that to any other live stock and you end up in jail for abuse. 

You, as a beekeeper have made a lot of choices for your stock, the bees have had little say. You have chosen who was split, the type and volume of the hive, etc... 
you cant turn around and say "its up to nature now".... its not. Their survival or failure is directly a result of your management (and past keepers, ie gentnics) and has nothing to do with nature 



> In fact, I want few of my hives to die so I am not the one choosing who to rob and who to spare.


Sounds like the meme saying " hunters should just go by meat made at the store were no animals were harmed"
Take responsibility for your livestock. Make the hard choices and follow threw.


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## JWChesnut

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

The program accepts that "Bond" selection shifts the genome. I find little evidence that Bond selection shifts bees in any favorable manner. Heritability in bees is low due to open, multiple mating. What is reported changing in Bond trials: Bees become runty, small nests with scrappy, hard to manage bees.

Bees in Bond selection are simply reverting to base, wild type --- quick to swarm, small, dinky colonies. Making up for extreme losses by frequent swarming. This should surprise no one --- evolution is "lazy" -- and if a pre-adaptation is available (in this case swarming tendency and nest size population) the pre-adaptation will be favored over any exotic and fragile mutation.


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## johno

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

GregV, welcome to America still managing to be the home of the free. You are free to keep your bees anyway you wish as long as you conform to the laws of your state. Where I draw the line is when you or anyone else tries to tell me how I should keep my bees.
Johno


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## bushpilot

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

Not the most sensible post I have read here at BS. But what do I know, I am a new beekeeper.


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## Oldtimer

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

Well he has a plan. Which is that 50% of the hives have to die, and leave him lots of resources, and a thanksgiving crop. The other 50% have to live well, and prosper.


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## crofter

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

I think it is a self pep talk to absolve himself from any blame for bees dieing on his watch. As JWC points out our individual actions have infinitely small influence at the species level. We do however sometimes escape into delusions of grandeur!


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## NHbeek

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



crofter said:


> I think it is a self pep talk to absolve himself from any blame for bees dieing on his watch. As JWC points out our individual actions have infinitely small influence at the species level. We do however sometimes escape into delusions of grandeur!


Our individual actions can make a difference at the population level which is what OP is going for. However the way he plans to go about doing so seems dubious. I don't think he can depend on an acceptable yearly loss. I have witnessed an apiary of 10 hives go to 0 over the course of a month due to untreated mites.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

In my area, if the bees "die off" I better get those combs fast or small hive beetles will have ruined everything.


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## little_john

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

Greg - on another thread (https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?350221-Raise-bees-indoors-over-winter) you're talking about pulling out all the stops to maximise the over-wintering survival chances of colonies so small that they wouldn't normally survive without such assistance - and yet in this thread you're talking about 'letting Nature take it's course', to the point of allowing colonies to die without lifting a hand to help them. Are there not two opposing philosophies at work here ? LJ


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## crofter

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

I dont think it is so noble or effective. Welcoming the death of some colonies to improve the others is not necessary. If one cares so much about the local populations development the selection process can take place much earlier and avoid additional problems created by actually allowing the colony to collapse: give the queen the hive tool test.

I am not at all squeamish about harvesting animals or putting them out of suffering or neutering them or dehorning them etc., I dont quite buy the story that someone is doing such wonders for so called improving a strain and meanwhile encouraging the others to die if that is not a necessity of the process. If you take charge of their situation, have the courage to make the tough decisions.

Sometimes I think we fool ourselves about why we really are doing what we do.

Edit: just read LJ's previous post; Yes...hmmm.....


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## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



little_john said:


> Greg - on another thread (https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?350221-Raise-bees-indoors-over-winter) you're talking about pulling out all the stops to maximise the over-wintering survival chances of colonies so small that they wouldn't normally survive without such assistance - and yet in this thread you're talking about 'letting Nature take it's course', to the point of allowing colonies to die without lifting a hand to help them. Are there not two opposing philosophies at work here ? LJ


Trying to save those weaklings that *will* die without my interference.
I hope some of these are actually worth keeping long-term (only hope, don't know for sure).
They will have their own opportunity to live or die * the next year*. 

Strong colonies, on the other hand, are having ALL the tools and resources at their disposal (like I said - I left all the resources to them and letting them organize their own wintering they see fit).
These better be able to fend for themselves. 
I provide them with excellent quarters, excellent remote, clean pastures, and then I am out of the picture. 
I don't care (already spend too much time on this hobby).

You see, I want these working dogs:















But I don't want these toy dogs:















Issue with my bees is that I don't know what I got on my hands right now.
All my bees are open-mated or randomly caught swarms - this is what I do.
I have hopeful expectations of some queens.
The other queens I hope just die off rather quickly and not waste the resources they got.
But I don't know which are which for sure - clearly, these are not dogs.

I am not going get into issues of "proper selection", "proper pet care", "proper animal care", "invasive vs. native", what-have-you...
Sure, if you have time, resources, and inclination - go for the "proper things".
I got a job to do here (keep my servers and databases running - what feeds me and the family).


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## msl

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



> Sure, if you have time, resources, and inclination - go for the "proper things".
> I got a job to do here (keep my servers and databases running - what feeds me and the family).


taking on more then you can handle is no excuse for livestock abuse



> Trying to save those weaklings that will die without my interference


now I am lost... those weaklings are the ones that need to go, just like the skep keeper of old. shake them out, take what they got, move on... they are going to (likly) be useless dinks come spring. 

As an unit, an apiary dies with out human interference. 

You don't get working dogs by catching a bunch of random dogs on the street, and penning them up in your yard and seeing what happens. You don't breed working dogs by letting a ***** in heat roam free in the neighborhood... sure you may get lucky, but the odds are not in your favor


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## crofter

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

GregV;

Looking at the list of responders to your post I think you picked a rather unrewarding crew to convert! Some of them have been worked on by experts and dismissed as not being worth the effort.


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## JWPalmer

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

I don't agree with most of the points Greg made in the first post, but one struck close to home. I was pondering next year's splits the other day. Last year around this time I had several boxes of drawn frames with honey and pollen, from two of the hives that died, in storage. Those resources made creating strong early splits possible. This year, nothing yet so the splits will have to draw their own comb and be fed much more heavily. I do not want any of the hives to die, but if they do, their resources will be used to create new hives in the Spring. Such is the circle of life.


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## Oldtimer

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

Did it occur that you don't have any drawn combs to make splits with from hives that died, cos no hives died. Hence, no need to make splits to make up numbers, you already have the numbers?

Quite the conundrum


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## crofter

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

JW, why not then allow some colonies grow up an extra box high to produce ten extra drawn frames for splits next spring?

Next summer (barring the return of EFB) I will do some splits that I will feed to produce drawn comb since I destroyed quite a bit of equipment in the last year. Those colonies will produce no honey but contribute to the apiary. I wont mind at all making the decision of which queens will get the nod and which ones get the hive tool test next fall.


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## JWPalmer

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

I am still in the growth phase of my apiary, although I intend on getting a decent honey harvest next year. The seven full-sized hives are all in 10 frame double deeps. The nine nucs are in 5 frame medium over deep or deep over deep boxes. My goal is 20 hives in the backyard, make 20 nucs to sell, and start populating an outyard. Trick will be to get the bees started in Jan. and manage brood boxes to get the additional deep frames I need drawn out early. This worked for me last year as I went from 3 survivors to my current 16. Lost over a dozen splits along the way to mostly dragonfly predation of the queens. Darn things were camped out in the beeyard!


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## roddo27846

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



crofter said:


> I think it is a self pep talk to absolve himself from any blame for bees dieing on his watch. As JWC points out our individual actions have infinitely small influence at the species level. We do however sometimes escape into delusions of grandeur!


Yet the genome shifts at this very moment, and it's delusionary to think you can stop it. I agree that the OP is not likely to see evolution at work in his apiary, but it is there nonetheless, just not something so visible. I wish him and you good luck with your bees, but in the end it is up to the bees. They've been here eons longer than we have, but over 99% of all species that have ever lived are extinct. Bottom line is, if they don't evolve, they will die, same as for everything else. Maybe we shouldn't interfere with that process regardless of profits and loss.


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## little_john

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

If we were to observe apes keeping bees, then we'd consider this activity to be part of the natural evolutionary process. But what are we - if not an example of a higher ape ? I think it's somewhat delusionary to consider _**** sapiens_ as being outside of, and thus detached from, the evolutionary dynamic ...
LJ


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## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



roddo27846 said:


> Yet the genome shifts at this very moment, and it's delusionary to think you can stop it. I agree that the OP is not likely to see evolution at work in his apiary, but it is there nonetheless, just not something so visible. I wish him and you good luck with your bees, but in the end it is up to the bees. They've been here eons longer than we have, but over 99% of all species that have ever lived are extinct. Bottom line is, if they don't evolve, they will die, same as for everything else. Maybe we shouldn't interfere with that process regardless of profits and loss.


Just to be sure - never once I muttered the word "evolution".
I only have 40 years of useful life left in me (optimistically).
In such context any talks of evolution are plain silly.

Selection, on the other hand, occurs daily as we speak.
I just prefer it to be natural.

So, staying the course.


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## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

Well, no Thanksgiving honey for the landlords.
OK, pulled a couple of side frames to C&S for the kids.

Still have 13 units.
Last year by now I had at least a couple of "absconds" and had plenty of honey to go around.


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## JWPalmer

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

Greg, how disappointing. All your bees are still alive.  At least you won't need all those frames for splits to make up for winter losses. At least not yet.


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## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



JWPalmer said:


> Greg, how disappointing. All your bees are still alive.  At least you won't need all those frames for splits to make up for winter losses. At least not yet.


Hope for some XMas honey still.
With the current year's failed goldenrod crop (due to rain), only way to get more honey now is from few deadouts.

If I have about 6-7 units left in the spring, there'd be awesome as for me - plenty of spare equipment to reuse again and plenty of bees as a starting base too.
Too many bees - will need to build more stuff.
Too few bees - will have a slow start.


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## msl

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

you might find the last part of this interesting , Alaskan bee management. Post flow take every thing, shake out on to foundation and feed so they make you drawn comb for next year, then do them in
http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/files/articles/American_Bee_Journal/ABJ2014-07.pdf


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## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



msl said:


> you might find the last part of this interesting , Alaskan bee management. Post flow take every thing, shake out on to foundation and feed so they make you drawn comb for next year, then do them in
> http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/files/articles/American_Bee_Journal/ABJ2014-07.pdf


Some do it even here, in my vicinity.
Last year they were offering their bees for taking in early winter (shaken bees only).
They kept the honey and equipment.
Unsure if anyone took the bees in.
I could have taken them in and put on some straight, dry sugar.
Well, it was way too late for such games; I just was not up to it as those were just commercial bees and likely dead out anyway.

Anyways, what they did was, obviously, an after-thought.
You plan for such moves ahead of time and find home for the unwanted bees ahead of time (OR just kill them and make no fuss then, if doing it this way).

Well, this is not my way. 
I am not here for straight honey.

You see, I do this for some family food and for some selection (and possible bee selling).
So moderate rate of die off is good for me (lets me both harvest my crop and also weeds out stock I do not want).
If you are an aggressive splitter, not much crop can be taken OFF any one colony.
BUT if any of those colonies do die - then you get to harvest.
So basically, you expand as much as you can and then hope that less than worthy queens will go under (the sooner they tank, the better for you - better harvest).

IF ALL my bees die - not good either, obviously.
IF ALL my bees live - it would be OK for future bee sales, but no honey for me (but not a realistic case for now anyway).


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## mischief

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

.....I'm confused, I freely admit it, as well as suffering from a serious case of information overload. lol
All those hives and you didnt get any honey.

My one 'toy' sized hive gave me 5 deep frames of honey that were double thick in mid summer- just in time for Xmas presents as well as 3 that went into the freezer just in case they needed them for later.
In fall, I did return 2 of these even though they had also built out and filled another 8 single width deeps, half of which they didnt use over winter so these are sitting at the far end of the long hive with a follower board between the two. The other one is still sitting in the freezer cos it is damaged. It will get returned to them in time for this winter- reason, it was removed after our cut off time that is there to make sure it doesnt have a toxic honey due to a native plant.(short explanation), so may not be safe for people to eat but okay for bees.

Apparently, last summer was not a good year. The person who has been doing my AFB checks was surprised at the amount of honey in the hive this spring and that I had not had to feed..... and that I had got anything off them- he hadnt harvested anything at all from all of his hives, but then, he also did some serious amount of splits to increase numbers.

The reason I had so many double fat combs,was because on one inspection, I found that Queen stalking on the third frame from the end along with her two minders. I had noticed through the window that something was not right because the last frame was only a 1/4 built out but already filled with nectar, the next two in were half built and 3/4 and also filled with nectar-hive was honey bound/nectar bound.
I decided that it was easier for the bees to continue to build out what they already had than make new comb on new frames, so I widened the gaps between all the honey frames. 
They fattened those combs as well as building out the ones I put in the brood nest....new hive, no ready made frames of comb available.
I could do this because I have a long hive, its probably not possible with a lang.

Before I even got the hive, I spent quite a bit of time planting fruit trees, taking note of flowering times as well as different shrubs and annuals.
Hive density and lack of forage have come up as possible major stress factors. I'm lucky in that I also have a number of different 'wild' areas nearby.

While I do understand the reasoning behind allowing weaker hives to die, in the expectation that this will help ensure better quality hives/genetics, it isnt something I can do, due to inexperience, only one hive and the the probability of a small gene pool. I just have to work with what I've got and hope that good forage/nutrition will help in the long term, along with my SC experiment.


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## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



mischief said:


> .....I'm confused, I freely admit it, as well as suffering from a serious case of information overload. lol
> All those hives and you didnt get any honey.
> 
> My one 'toy' sized hive gave me 5 deep frames of honey that were double thick in mid summer-...


Look:
1)I am a very aggressive splitter - my 2 survivors from last winter became 7 hives (6 strong and 1 smallish nuc; there were more, some nucs failed).
2)In addition I caught few swarms (very late) and made more side-projects nucs - so I was up to 14 units in September (13 units now)
3)Also lost a swarm, oh well.

Now, IF I wanted to I could have had only 4-5 very big units and made enough honey to go around.
But this also means I only had 4-5 queens on hand and low redundancy and not much selection going (the most important project for now).

In short:
* if you expand a lot, you do not get much honey if any
* you keep them big and few in counts, you get more honey, but fewer queens

So, I do work on expansion-side.
Do you see that?


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## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



mischief said:


> ....While I do understand the reasoning behind allowing weaker hives to die,....


Not the weaker hive to die - I am even nursing a couple of nucs with internal heaters (hard to be weaker than a cup of bees and a queen).

This is not about the weakest hives.

Anyway, I am repeating myself too much as it is.


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## mischief

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

I wasnt having a go at you.
Everyone has their own goals and reasons and as I am learning, they also have their own strategies, that would never have occurred to me.
The more we share, the more we all learn.


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## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



mischief said:


> I wasnt having a go at you.
> Everyone has their own goals and reasons and as I am learning, they also have their own strategies, that would never have occurred to me.
> The more we share, the more we all learn.


Not a problem here.
I know you are not after me, personally.

It is the beekeeping model that I am trying out looks as if illogical. 
I get it.

To be sure, there is always honey on my table and bee bread in a fridge.
A non-issue here.
But I also need some extra honey to gift to those nice people who let me keep my bees on their properties.
My model totally depends on several small, redundant yards - a part of the equation and some expense at that. 
So I do need some extra harvest somehow (preferably around the holidays  ).


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## Oldtimer

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

Just out of interest Greg, is it royal jelly, or stored pollen you are harvesting. If RJ, what is your harvesting method?


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## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Oldtimer said:


> Just out of interest Greg, is it royal jelly, or stored pollen you are harvesting. If RJ, what is your harvesting method?


I harvest fermented pollen (aka bee bread, aka perga).
Last summer I also harvested some drone brood via C&S (from a captured commercial bee swarm - low value drone but for food usage).

No RJ.


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## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

Well, per my notes at about this time in December 2017 I was down to 4 hopeful colonies (one more was still alive but on its way out).
Out of those 4 colonies in December, 2 made it all way.
This was starting with 11 colonies in September of 2017 (success rate - 2 out of 11).

As of yesterday, I still have 12 colonies of various shapes and sizes (starting with 14 in September).
Hmm. OK.

Lost another tiny, queen-holding nucleus (regardless of the heater).
This is somewhat a shame as lost both of my "Russian" queens now.

In the future I should not be making these nucs out of commercial bee swarms. 
Not again. Should know better.
Waste of time and resources if trying to plug in queen of any value into these commercial swarm bees.
Best just leave those commercial swarms in to the winter as-is and, hopefully, harvest some honey and comb from them with any luck.
A quarantine, of sorts.


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## Litsinger

GregV:

Got a chance to read through your efforts thus far and I find your very direct methods of genetic selection interesting and thought-provoking. I look forward to seeing how this project progresses/develops as time goes on.

Russ


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## GregB

Will see, Russ.
The next checkpoint - about XMas.
Anything I do not need, should drop off by about then and would be good riddance.

Of course, last year I lost two very good colonies in late February, just needed another month to go. 
That particular kind of a loss is painful. Was some good material there.


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## Litsinger

Thanks, GregV. I do look forward to keeping up with your project.

Mother Nature can certainly be a cruel mistress...


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## GregB

Well, we had up to +8C today (and +6C yesterday).
Some hives went out flying.
I did my rounds and still count 12 units.
One nuc from a promising line will probably going to die soon (consistently loosing bees is not good; will do them in).
That's a bummer as I had hopes for them. 
But I have three more units from this line - looking well.

On the other hand, all the commercial swarms I caught this year - still holding and looking well at it.
OK, not much more harvest this year that I can see coming. 
It is good to appreciate the real honey when you have it.
For now feeding the July boomer swarm.
They have mites per the bottom board, and yet don't seem to care for now; and if truly so - they are worth plenty of cheap sugar.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> OK, not much more harvest this year that I can see coming.


GregV:

It must be terrible to bear the burden of so many healthy hives... I really feel sorry for you. 🙂

In all seriousness, I enjoy reading about your interesting project- and here's to hoping a few hives don't make it? 😉


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> It must be terrible to bear the burden of so many healthy hives... I really feel sorry for you. 🙂
> 
> In all seriousness, I enjoy reading about your interesting project- and here's to hoping a few hives don't make it? 😉


Well, as things develop further into the winter the usefulness of the dead-outs diminishes.
Like I said I wish they just drop-off fast and do it efficiently if so.
The so-called "absconded" hives in late fall are the best (around November) - no bees, no robbing, and empty hives are full of honey to collect.
This worked fine for me last year.

Well, this year turns out different. 
No easy prey so far for the scavenger that I am.

Once the make it into the X-Mas, then my position changes a bit.
If they make it into 2019, I will hope the survivors pull through and will monitor so to prevent regular winter-related issues (mainly - running out of stores).

Per what I see so far, I expect to 11 out of 12 to make it into the year 2019.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Per what I see so far, I expect to 11 out of 12 to make it into the year 2019.


That sounds like a banner overwintering percentage, and something you can really build from next year. Congratulations.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> That sounds like a banner overwintering percentage, and something you can really build from next year. Congratulations.


Well, making into the "year 2019" only means they will make it into January 1st, 2019.
First pollen here comes in March (maybe February if weather goes nuts and not exactly good - too early).
Plenty of chances to croak still.
But yes, if that many make it through January 1st, it will be a good sign and new problems to solve (problems of the good kind, to be sure).


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Plenty of chances to croak still.


No doubt of that- but it is good, I think to harbor a little optimism. I remind myself of Ecclesiastes 11:4: "He who watches the wind will not sow and he who looks at the clouds will not reap."

I expect most successful beekeepers are eternal optimists at heart...


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## msl

> I expect most successful beekeepers are eternal optimists at heart...


not so sure.... but it seems most failed ones are 
in my experience the realists prosper, understand the problem and do what it takes, don't let dogma over rule performance


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## GregB

> I expect most successful beekeepers are eternal optimists at heart...


Well, my oldest son finally understands me better in a way (he is 18).
He, basically, classifies me somewhere in between cynics and skeptics and pessimists.

Eternal optimists are many of those who think "I counted the mites and I treated by the book - I am OK now" OR "I got a swarm of feral bees and they must be resistant - I am OK now"... 
Both ideas are just plain silly. 
Should not depend on either idea in its entirety.
The thing is - you are never OK.
The "OK" does not exist as the reality is fluid and outside of our full control.

So, basically, I assume I will lose bees and no IFs or BUTs about it.
I just don't know how many and which exact units I will lose.
Given this assumption, I am then trying to distribute the eggs into the variety of baskets so to keep playing in the game.
It is a really fun game, folks. 
All it is to it. 
I am a gamer!


Added: 
check out some great multi-player, opponent-attrition board games like Carcassonne or Risk; 
beekeeping is just like these games, just played in actual reality on very real landscape.

Adaptability, and continuous adaptation, and avoiding excessive specialization let crows and rats to be successful. 
Have to learn from rats and crows - from the successful, un-destructible generalists.


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> in my experience the realists prosper, understand the problem and do what it takes, don't let dogma over rule performance





GregV said:


> So, basically, I assume I will lose bees and no IFs or BUTs about it.


In my opinion, you are both quite correct. I suppose when I refer to optimism I do not have in mind a pollyannaish view of life/beekeeping but rather a generally positive (forward looking) outlook in the face of certain set-backs and disappointments.

Growing up on a ranch, I learned that death is inevitable- so in light if this reality, ranchers don't let an individual failure or even a series of failures (a bad year) define their success. As you both wisely pointed out, you recognize the cold, hard realities associated with your goals and hopefully use both your successes and (maybe more importantly) your failures to inform your future decisions, rather than giving up in despair.

GregV: sorry for sidetracking your thread... I'll attempt to keep my philosophical thoughts to myself going forward. Enjoying reading about what you are doing.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ..GregV: sorry for sidetracking your thread... I'll attempt to keep my philosophical thoughts to myself going forward. Enjoying reading about what you are doing.


Not a problem!
Thanks for the discussion, in fact.

Your ranch experience fits very well with my experience too.
It was like this - you want to eat? then you go and butcher a couple of chickens or a pig and dig yourself some potatoes. Then eat.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> It was like this - you want to eat?


Certainly makes it easier to appreciate the food when you have such a direct connection to it. 

Thanks for all your advice.

Russ


----------



## GregB

This is regarding:
https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...val-Treatment-Free-2017&p=1685601#post1685601



GregV said:


> ...
> 1% reduction in body size?
> I do not believe it.


Just to be consistent with my non-belief, I did the math computing the cylinder volumes so to see the volume ratios, anyway (using for the cell measurement inputs data from MB's site).

So the approximate cell volume difference between 5.5mm and 5.0mm is about 30%, indeed.
The claimed 1% bee size difference in cell volumes "5.48 to 5.08" just does not look reasonable.

I think the math shows well that resulting bee size differences (even within the same colony when using NCs) could easily vary within 25-30% in body volume.


Cell Size Comb widthCell Width Cell VolumeCylinder diameterCylinder radiusCylinder lengthCylinder volumeCylinder volume percent diff5.555 mm 22.60 mm5.555 mm 301 mmł5.5552.777511.3273.7261108156.29%5.375 mm 22.20 mm5.375 mm 277 mmł5.3752.687511.1251.7384609143.74%5.210 mm 21.80 mm5.210 mm 256 mmł5.212.60510.9232.2584917132.61%5.060 mm 21.40 mm5.060 mm 237 mmł5.062.5310.7215.0574382122.79%4.925 mm 21.00 mm4.925 mm 222 mmł4.9252.462510.5199.9269891114.15%4.805 mm 20.60 mm4.805 mm 206 mmł4.8052.402510.3186.6782261106.59%4.700 mm 20.20 mm4.700 mm 192 mmł4.72.3510.1175.140565100.00%


----------



## msl

but we don't measure bees by volume
We don't measure size by volume....
a 1x1x1 cm box holds 1 cc volume
a 2x2x2 box is only twice the size, but holds 8 cc, 8x the volume

going from 5.4 to 4.9 is a 9.25% reduction in Width 
if your chart is accurate, going from 5.375 with a length of 11.1 to 4.925 with length of 10.5 is a 5.4% reduction in length 
in our past conversion, I sited Baudoux (1933), witch was the largest recorded change in body size I am aware of.... 5.55 to 4.95 gave a 13.5% change in sized, as measured by thorax width. 
I gave you 3 other studys showing only small changes, and pointed out genetics was one of the bigest factor
the one your stuck on was AMM, and you know you self from all your Russian research that some stocks don't like small cell, even if raised on it they often will draw bigger cells. the study was showing that AMM bees size shrank very little on SC.

I here people talk about there "small bees? but often they are seeing what they want... many case we are talking about 0.5 mm or difference in Width, Baudoux (1933) was 0.56mm ... I know I can eye ball that 

I also noted that Baudoux (1933) 4.95 cell bees were 0.57mm BIGGER then Spivak and Erickson (1992) 5.37 cell bees.... 
ya the small cell bees were 18.8% bigger then the large cell bees.

once again genetics was one of the biggest factor


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> but we don't measure bees by volume
> ...
> once again genetics was one of the biggest factor


No, we don't measure bees by their volume, clearly.
But we measure the cells by volume (that in turn produce those bees and there is a correlation).

All in all, it is about particular phenotypes that we care about (genotypes are outside of a regular beeks' perception anyway).

We'll see how the winter develops.
Still sitting on 12 units here (though one more nuc will probably croak soon).


----------



## GregB

Wanted to make a note regarding the "swarm" department.

So far this season I successfully killed two Russian queens due to my repeated foolishness.

To receive these queens I made up two small split-away nucs from a captured swarm of unknown origin (some sort of commercial Italian-like bee).
I figured - this is a throw-away swarm anyway and might as well use them up for other projects.
(As of 2 weeks ago check, the swarm itself is still alive - so go figure).

Well, apparently these Italian-like bees brought along enough of a mite load that the Russian queens could not turn things around in their little nucs.
Both nucs croaked (even heaters did not help).

I should have created those queen-intake nucs from more robust bees (really, could have spared few bee frames just fine).
Greed got in a way and resulted in queen losses.

Obvious Lessons Learned:
* put the captured swarms into a quarantine yard and let them fend for themselves (that's what people who know have been doing);
* do not reuse any brood/bees away from the captured swarm (danger of mites!)
* if survive into the next season, apply OTS to them and keep in quarantine for another season, I guess (but the very initial round of weeding out should be done).


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## clyderoad

Your antics are a regular source of amusement.


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## GregB

clyderoad said:


> Your antics are a regular source of amusement.


If you read them, that's all it matters to me. 
Why spend the time practicing creative writing, otherwise.
I am too lazy and too busy to run my own blog.
Hehehe.


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## clyderoad

Creative writing?? Ok.

:lpf:


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## jonsl

Delete.


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## GregB

You know, it takes a bit of work and creativity to make a readable post if you care to be read.
Might as well make it worth the reader's time.
English 101, kinda thing.


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## jonsl

Just commenting on the fact that I deleted my own post. Case of self censorship. I think I was violating the rules of the forum and it was a wasted comment anyway. At any rate good luck!


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## GregB

jonsl said:


> Case of self censorship. ...At any rate good luck!


Thanks!
Appreciated.


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## GregB

Down to eleven hives officially.
This particular yard had three sister queens - down to two sisters now.
The remaining two hives I expect to winter fine; looked normal.

This hive originated from one of my better queens and I had hopes for it.
Was a random 2-frame nuc as I had an extra QC to park someplace.
They built-up nicely by the summer end.
Well, through the fall they started shedding the bees at an unsustainable rate and finally the end came.
Today found the expected picture and cleaned out the hive.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> are you using "crops" in the standard use of word as in excess over the hives survival being harvested , or are you talking honey from dead outs


Both.

Two points.

1)The scavenger crop harvest.

Well, this year is terrible in this department as I do not have much to scavenge (but maybe will be good for 2019 for the point #2 below - still a win if so). 

Last season I had excellent crop from several small dead hives (40-60 liter wintering nucs).
Yes - they dropped out late fall/early winter and, hence, there was not robbing (good timing in that).
And yes - they were packed with the honey crop.
I had more honey than I was prepared to handle (bought second freezer just to keep it all).

In that regard, some of these were good bees and it was my fault they dropped out.
I was too liberal moving brood around from random, captured swarms trying to balance out other hives - a very bad idea, as I cross-infected some colonies.
I learned this same lesson again this year and that is my own, stupid bad thinking (made up a couple of nucs from a captured swarm so to take in outside queens - wasted).
Those captured swarms should be 100% in quarantine through the winter and used for nothing. 

To compare to the small dead-outs last year, if the monster "almond bee" hive drops out today, there will be no crop to harvest from them. 
These bees seem to be all into growth and nothing else - a definition of a good "almond bee" I guess.

2)The standard crop harvest.

I think I now know the recipe how to run many smaller hives (good for loss mitigation) and still harvest enough crop off of them in small increments (thus produce enough crop from the entire fleet for my own needs).
Very small honey frame/very large brood frame - this is the proposed answer.
Given proper equipment configuration (a mini-super box with small frames over the brood box), 40-60 liter strong nucs could each produce some crop.
But my equipment was not set for that until now (and so the crop was entirely splattered across the brood nest as bees wanted it).
Will experiment this year with this idea.

Yes, I agree that given the *same circumstances* the larger hive should bring larger crop. 
We know the issues of hive maintenance overhead and blah, blah, blah...
This is a known and let's move on.

Well, at the same time running a fleet of smaller hives gives 1)much better loss mitigation due to redundancy and 2)ability to still make up composite, crop-oriented large hives when so needed.
As long as you have lots of resource hives, you have ability to do lots of things and hit lots of targets.
The only downside to this - forget the "two-times-per-year" management model. 
This will take more management time for sure - and that's OK as for me. 
It has been fun so far.


----------



## msl

GregV said:


> .
> Yes, I agree that given the *same circumstances* the larger hive should bring larger crop.
> We know the issues of hive maintenance overhead and blah, blah, blah...
> This is a known and let's move on.


trish said


trishbookworm said:


> hive with only 15 frames covered with bees will not produce much honey past their needs...


you quoted her and replied


GregV said:


> Hives with much fewer bees can produce fine crop.


I get that one could do ok keeping more small hives, but that was not the topic at hand



> To compare to the small dead-outs last year, if the monster "almond bee" hive drops out today, there will be no crop to harvest from them.
> These bees seem to be all into growth and nothing else - a definition of a good "almond bee" I guess.


yep... no dispute there
How many supers did this "monster" grow in to? seems to be some frames not in the box
View attachment 45495
what was the deep frame equivalent it went in to winter with? looks to be 11-12


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> Then you shouldn't post such things
> 
> trish said
> 
> you quoted here and replied
> 
> 
> I get that one could do ok keeping more small hives, but that was not the topic at hand
> 
> 
> yep... no dispute there
> How many supers did this "monster" grow in to? seems to be some frames not in the box
> View attachment 45495
> what was the deep frame equivalent it went in to winter with? looks to be 11-12


15 deep Lang frames covered with bees should reduce for wintering to less than 10 (heck, I winter most of mine on 5-6 Dadant frames as we speak).
You can easily pull 2-3-4 frames for your own crop, from a side.
If frame not covered with bees in winter, I pull the frame out. 
This frame does not belong in a hive in winter and is mine to handle as I see fit.
So that is a configuration issue and/or a bee issue (too many bees/no honey).
And that is what I said.

The "monster" is sitting in 16-frame deep horizontal (on the picture). 
That is 16 large Dadant frames in size (about 32 medium Langs in size).
They also had additional 10 frame super in late summer - medium Langs on the top - brought nothing into the super.
So at the max point the bees were sitting on 40+ medium Langs (it is big, considering this is a July swarm).

They are wintering on 10 Dadant frames as we speak (I pulled the unused frames as I do normally).
A large cluster and the pile of sugar.
So that is what you observe on the picture.


----------



## msl

spit ball numbers 
10 Dadant frames (167.5 SI) is about 12.5 deeps (134 SI) barely bigger then a single or 5x5 nuc... At its max it was a whisker shy of 20 deeps and had unused side combs, along with a unused super.

In my mind, that's not a monster, that's a dink. A late swarm that needed supplementary feed to build up and didn't get it.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> so spit ball numbers
> 10 Dadant frames (167.5 SI) is about 12.5 deeps (134 SI) barely bigger then a single or 5x5 nuc... At its max it was a whisker shy of 20 deeps and had an unused super and side combs and no harvest
> 
> That's not a monster, that's a dink. A late swarm that needed supplementary feed to build up and didn't get it.


Again, we are talking of a mid-summer swarm.
No, I do not feel it needed supplemental feeding at all.
They had plenty of empty comb supply and mid-summer flow was fine.

It is wintering on 10 Dadants fully covered - that is big enough. This is mid-winter now.

In fact, it is TOO big for winter and it is wasteful for winter to be this big.
By Eastern Euro standard, wintering on 8 Dadants is a very strong cluster and is bordering on "too much".
In fact, anything above 8 Dadants is too strong and will create issues.
Wintering on 6-8 Dadants is optimal.

So yes, this cluster on 10 Dadants is a "monster" - they eat a lot, they over-heat during every thaw and come out flying, they are restless, they will like brood out soon (if not already) thus only promoting mites. 
I would much rather see them wintering on 5-6 frames and just quietly hibernate for a couple more months.

I don't know where you are coming from, but most Eastern Euro keepers will agree with me on this.
Granted, not many Euro keepers run Italian bee (Euro bees are more efficient wintering - smaller clusters).
Consider, wintering on 10-15kilos of honey is normal (25-40 pounds).
In my current locale I hear people wintering on 80 pounds of honey, now that is very inefficient.
So unsure why wintering huge clusters on 80 pounds of stores is a bragging point. 
It should not be. 

Did I say "unused super"?
The super was full of bees, all right, as the hive had no space for them. 
But the bees did not fill the empty storage with honey as I expected.

In all if the bees fully cover 20 Lang deeps in summer - that is enough bee to supply themselves and me with enough honey for the winter. 
If the bee is the right kind of a bee - to be sure.


----------



## GregB

OK, here is a good demo of a classic wintering in Dadant.
Outside. 
Winter is compatible to what we have in WI.
Not much of insulation either. 
Local variety of Ukrainian bee (AM macedonica).

Notice - like I said - 6-8 Dadant frame typical configurations.
All it takes.
If those hives are dinks, all the better - dinks are cheap to overwinter - what really matters how they develop in spring.
The guy in the video is an experienced honey producer and does well for himself (running his dinks).
Just click around and look inside the hives as he does his checking.
Might as well jump to 9:00 and start from there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnlnO-f9S_I&t=1054s


----------



## msl

> No, I do not feel it needed supplemental feeding at all.


I don't know how some can look at a starving hive mid winter and say "it didn't need feeding" 
They didn't go into winter with enuff stores, and your having to E feed dry sugar...... they indeed needed supplemental feed, you just chose to do it late.... far better to have it in the comb and full ripened.. 
However I "get" why you might not want to do that in your program to avoid contamination of dead out honey, but thats not the arugement you put forth 

It appears your making decisions based on what you feel your bees "should" be doing instead of looking at what they are doing.
As you note your not in Eastern Euro, and don't have their stock, and the local stock doesn't perform at all like it 
If your neighbors are overwintering on 80#, why would you think the swarms you catch from them would be any different?


----------



## squarepeg

so far i haven't had any colonies stupid enough to leave themselves high and dry like the one being discussed here. relentless brooding to the detriment of stores may be a useful trait in some applications, but not for greg's or mine either.

jmho, but i think giving them the e feed long enough to get them to splitting time so the old queen can be pinched, and then start a few new colonies with queens reared from colonies that do what they 'should' is good management.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> OK, here is a good demo of a classic wintering in Dadant.
> Outside. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnlnO-f9S_I&t=1054s


GregV:

This is a really cool video- while the language barrier prevents understanding a lot of what he is communicating, a few things stuck out to me:

1. He is opening these hives up at rather low ambient (maybe 25 degrees F?) and does not appear to be in a big hurry about it.

2. He made no discernible effort to clean the snow away from the entrances and it appeared all the upper entrances were corked closed.

3. What is the wax paper representing? I assume he is using this as his inner cover similar to a TBH set-up, but maybe it is from a pollen sub?

4. When I had Google translate the video subject it came up with: "Warming hives for the winter- What is better?" So, what was his conclusion?

I enjoy reading your chronicles. Have a great weekend.

Russ


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> I don't know how some can look at a starving hive mid winter and say "it didn't need feeding"
> They didn't go into winter with enuff stores, and your having to E feed dry sugar...... they indeed needed supplemental feed, you just chose to do it late.... far better to have it in the comb and full ripened..
> However I "get" why you might not want to do that in your program to avoid contamination of dead out honey, but thats not the arugement you put forth
> 
> It appears your making decisions based on what you feel your bees "should" be doing instead of looking at what they are doing.
> As you note your not in Eastern Euro, and don't have their stock, and the local stock doesn't perform at all like it
> If your neighbors are overwintering on 80#, why would you think the swarms you catch from them would be any different?


Look..

1)


> say "it didn't need feeding"


Repeating myself now - need to let the swarm* "express" itself *.
Why feed them by default?
That is a bad default.
IF I feed them immediately, how do I even know what I got in this random swarm?

They had all the tools at their disposal and had plenty of time to so - entire half-July, August and September in my locality (we have plenty of forage non-stop, discount some for rainy September and partially ruined Goldenrod crop);
A large swarm is fully capable of setting itself up and then some - fully and justifiably expected of them.

OK, these bees did not express themselves to my liking fully - BUT, they are still alive and are NOT shedding bees (as of the last check).
Meanwhile I see plenty of mites laying on the bottom - this is good enough already as they seem to be holding despite the mites - emergency feeding is justified as these still could be a good resource in spring.

2)


> you might not want to do that in your program to avoid contamination of dead out honey


Of course, I do not want sugar syrup in my honey crop - that goes without saying... 
I was fully hoping for some crop from these bees. 
If I expect crop, I do not feed sugar into those frames (just a good common practice).
Next.

3)


> what you feel your bees "should" be doing instead of looking at what they are doing.


Back to our North American particulars.
With every swarm captured, you truly do NOT know what you got.
Examples:
a) Last season several people around me sold and bought Saskatraz bees; Saskatraz swarms could be flying about
b) A friend of mine bough few Russian nucs and installed them nearby. I do not think he lost any swarms, AFAIK.
BUT who else is quietly running Russian bees in the area - I do not know; they do not report to me.
c) This same friend is running a line completely off treatments 5 years now.
I got a queen from him last summer and have a really good looking colony wintering.
That line originated from a random swarm that he caught.
d)These particular bees (my "monster" I mean) did look and behave like Carnis and so I assumed that initially. 
But of course, we are in N. America and the looks can be totally deceiving. 
Sure enough - deceiving they were.

So, every random swarm needs a chance to express itself (not immediate feeding/treating).
I hive them and let them do what they wanna do (and hope for the best).
If they die - too bad and a good riddance.


----------



## GregB

squarepeg said:


> so far i haven't had any colonies stupid enough to leave themselves high and dry like the one being discussed here. relentless brooding to the detriment of stores may be a useful trait in some applications, but not for greg's or mine either..


SP, I heard such cases in my local beek community, actually.
It goes like this - "last time I checked - there were plenty of stores; I checked a month later - a hive full of bees and no honey - this is taking place in November in WI". 

Pretty sure they originate from the "almond bee" sales.
Just too bad - soon we'll be getting the seasonal truck loads of those junk packages again.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> This is a really cool video- while the language barrier prevents understanding a lot of what he is communicating, a few things stuck out to me:
> 
> 1. He is opening these hives up at rather low ambient (maybe 25 degrees F?) and does not appear to be in a big hurry about it.
> 
> 2. He made no discernible effort to clean the snow away from the entrances and it appeared all the upper entrances were corked closed.
> 
> 3. What is the wax paper representing? I assume he is using this as his inner cover similar to a TBH set-up, but maybe it is from a pollen sub?
> 
> 4. When I had Google translate the video subject it came up with: "Warming hives for the winter- What is better?" So, what was his conclusion?
> 
> I enjoy reading your chronicles. Have a great weekend.
> 
> Russ


1. Sure. 
People even combine bees in winter - no sweat. I posted videos. 
Actually, about 25F-35F is about the best temp to check them - no flying. 

2. No need, he has plenty of ventilation. He said he'll clean it "later".

3. Just a regular, heavy plastic film (propolized a bit, so looks like wax paper).
Very commonly used in Eastern Euro during the warmer months (as you noted - inner cover type of application - basically, a modern version of cloth).
Plastic gives very good micro-climate management as it is air/moisture barrier.
I am hesitant if I should try it (non-natural it is but yet it provides good and needed features, especially for a small cluster; but well propolized cloth has a very similar effect and yet is natural; still debating this....).
Some use plastic in winter too at swear by it - but that requires strong bottom/side ventilation and very strong top insulation (to prevent excessive condensation).

4. He is running a serious of tests on different types of insulation this winter - from none at all to a slab of rigid insulation.
His default insulation - none. 
Just a folded plastic piece is laying his hives so not to loose it (he will start using the plastic in early spring, like March, when they start brooding).

Thanks!


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Plastic gives very good micro-climate management as it is air/moisture barrier. I am hesitant if I should try it (non-natural it is but yet it provides good and needed features, especially for a small cluster; but well propolized cloth has a very similar effect and yet is natural; still debating this....).


GregV:

Thank you for your reply- very interesting stuff.

While I know very little about bees, I do know a little bit about construction (I work in the design and construction of commercial and institutional facilities), and I know that the proper relative placement of a vapor barrier within a roof or wall assembly is very much dependent upon one's local climate.

When you get bored some night and can't sleep, head over to buildingscience.com. Dr. Joseph Lstiburek is one of the world's foremost experts on successful climate-appropriate building envelopes.

I say all this to say that Dr. Joe suggests there are three fundamental questions we should ask ourselves when preparing to develop a roof system:

1. What climate is it going into?

2. Do we intend for it to be vented or unvented?

3. Do we intend to control the condensing surface temperature?

Here is a detailed article where he addresses these precepts:

https://buildingscience.com/documents/reports/rr-0108-unvented-roof-systems/view

When he refers to "roof deck", we can think of this as "inner cover".

What does this all mean practically (for both our houses and our hives)?

Where you live (in a "Cold" climate), plastic sheathing under your outer cover might be of real benefit in the Winter months, particularly if you are insulating sufficiently to keep your "roof deck" above the relevant dew-point temperature in all low-ambient conditions.

Where I live (in a "Mixed-Humid" climate), a vapor barrier under the outer cover would likely be a source of trouble due to the general principal that in our zone it is prudent for the interior of the roof deck to be able to dry to the interior due to higher Winter enthalpy values relative to the "Cold" climate zone. This is why you generally do not see vinyl wallpaper installed in commercial buildings South of the Mason-Dixon line- it tends to lead to mold growth under the wallpaper due to moisture build-up.


----------



## msl

like with our German friend's thread, I with draw, in hope the OP continues providing content 

gentlemen and ladies the floor is yours, use it well


----------



## Hunajavelho

GregV said:


> Again, we are talking of a mid-summer swarm.
> 
> It is wintering on 10 Dadants fully covered - that is big enough. This is mid-winter now.
> 
> In fact, it is TOO big for winter and it is wasteful for winter to be this big.
> By Eastern Euro standard, wintering on 8 Dadants is a very strong cluster and is bordering on "too much".
> In fact, anything above 8 Dadants is too strong and will create issues.
> Wintering on 6-8 Dadants is optimal.
> 
> So yes, this cluster on 10 Dadants is a "monster" - they eat a lot, they over-heat during every thaw and come out flying, they are restless, they will like brood out soon (if not already) thus only promoting mites.
> I would much rather see them wintering on 5-6 frames and just quietly hibernate for a couple more months.


A loose cluster and a tight cluster is different, that is why a tight winter cluster of 6-8 dadant frames, that is so tight and calm that it appears as dead (in temperatures under 40F) is a very strong colony. One that covers ten frames but is loose and restless, might not be that big if it were to be as tight. A big cluster that is not tight and calm in winter does not own a good wintering ability, a colony like this is asking for problems sooner or later and is definitely not one to breed from. 

For example Buckfast bees of central Europe winters in big and tight clusters but very seldom covers more than 8 dadant frames.


----------



## little_john

GregV said:


> Plastic gives very good micro-climate management as it is air/moisture barrier.
> I am hesitant if I should try it (non-natural it is but yet it provides good and needed features, especially for a small cluster; but well propolized cloth has a very similar effect and *yet is natural*; still debating this....).


No, it's NOT. I get so frustrated when I hear Warre beekeepers in particular talking about using hessian (burlap) for this reason in the construction of quilts. Cloth of any kind is man-made, and therefore 'unnatural' in the generally-accepted use of the term.

Now if anyone should argue the point that the source materials involved (hemp, cotton, flax etc) are 'natural', and it's only the processing of those materials which renders them 'unnatural' - then all oil-based materials (plastics etc) instantly become 'natural' by such a definition.

Even if oil-based products were to be eliminated from the argument, and 'natural' materials were considered to be those coming directly from a plant source (such as trees), then polystyrene would fall into that category, as it can be made from processed plant oil (which is how it was first discovered) , as well as from petro-chemicals.

In short, we need to be cautious when claiming any material to be 'natural' - i.e. as occurring in Nature, without human involvement.
LJ


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## JWPalmer

The best example of a natural cloth I can come up with is the material found at the base of the fronds of certain palm trees. A coconut palm produces sections large enough to be used like a crown board or inner cover. Not sure how someone in a Northern climate would aquire this.


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## lharder

The issue is more the use of materials that can easily degrade once it gets into the environment. I use rigid Styrofoam to insulate and some plastic frames. I don't view this environmentally healthy, even if there was complete circle recycling possible. There is always that random piece that escapes. 

Most "natural" products do degrade as microbes can get in there molecularly to break it down. It is possible to chemically alter naturally derived feedstock and make it indigestible as well.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> ....
> 
> When you get bored some night and can't sleep, head over to* buildingscience.com*. Dr. Joseph Lstiburek is one of the world's foremost experts on successful climate-appropriate building envelopes..


Actually, this is my favorite building site - buildingscience.com!!!
About 6-7 years ago now I finished exposed basement of my new home (took me two years).
Spent lots of hours studying insulation/moisture control on that exact site.
So, yes, the efficient bee hive construction is one of my current hobbies. 
More specific premise is this - appropriately good hive should allow small bee cluster to survive and thrive and produce - I want figure out this small hive beekeeping model as a way to be sustainable and chem-free.
So, energy efficiency and moisture management is an immediate issue at hand for the zone 5 in Southern WI.
I think I have it figured out pretty well.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> like with our German friend's thread, I with draw, in hope the OP continues providing content
> 
> gentlemen and ladies the floor is yours, use it well


MSI, hahahaha!
Seriously, I had a good laughter.


----------



## GregB

little_john said:


> No, it's NOT.........
> 
> In short, we need to be cautious when claiming any material to be 'natural' - i.e. as occurring in Nature, without human involvement.
> LJ


There are synthetic materials (e.g. nylon) as they just do not exist in nature.
There are natural materials that have been simply mechanically reordered for more convenient consumption (e.g. wool or cotton or other natural fibers).

Now there are petrol-based polymers.
Yes, the building blocks for these polymers exist in nature (ethylene - C2H4, for example).
But it takes much more manipulation to build petrol-based polymers to the usable state - I get it.
No, such polymers are not natural enough for me as* they do not rot* easily.

That is my resolution to the problem.
If you rot naturally, quickly and produce no toxins, you are natural enough.
Good enough for me.

PS: but the use of polyethylene film in developing nucs is beneficial beyond doubt; I think I will try this in coming summer anyway.


----------



## msl

GregV said:


> MSI, hahahaha!
> Seriously, I had a good laughter.


I am glad you enjoyed my parting gift, one last one... Instead of pollyfilm, try reflectix

Writeing takes a lot of effort for me, many of my posts take me well over a 1/2 hour
Long and short is 2 posts I made here last night disappeared. 
Be it something nefarious (like it felt at the time), or just an IT glitch(more reasonable view in the morning light) , The amount of frustration I felt over wasted effort bought to light just how much effort I had been wasting. 
catch ya in the spring


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> So, energy efficiency and moisture management is an immediate issue at hand for the zone 5 in Southern WI.


GregV:

Sounds like you are well ahead of the curve, and I look forward with interest to read your future chronicles- I imagine there are some definite parallels between appropriate home and hive construction practices depending upon climate (to a point).

Have a great day!

Russ


----------



## GregB

So as of today's check I am down to 10 units.
One half-dead nuc I will not count - a matter of time when they will croak.

So these ten unites are worth keeping afloat now (being mid-January).
Three of these are the random swarms (including the "stupid" bees discussed above).
Six of these are the two survivor lines I am trying to maintain (three units of each).
One unit is a survivor line coming from an outside known source.

Overall this is 10/14 survival so far.

Also documenting wintering cluster sizes I have going (in deep Dadant frame size) - 10, 8, 7, 7, 6, 6, 6, 6, 5, 5, 2.
The tiny 2-frame nuc is being heated and is fine.
The others I am not concerned for, outside of checking the stores in early February now.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> 1. Sure.
> *People even combine bees in winter* - no sweat. I posted videos.
> Actually, about 25F-35F is about the best temp to check them - no flying.
> .....
> Thanks!


And what do you know, this same keeper just did a mid-January apiary audit.
Several units got candy based on the findings.

The cool part - his is combining one unit into the other hive.
This is an emergency - he is suspecting a queen-less colony (the restless one); meanwhile another colony is loosing bees and chances of making it are low.
Here you go - mid-winter combine.
Temperature -4C.
Jump to 22.00 to watch the combine in action.
There are more details of interest, up to you to notice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slbPxaFGA28


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> There are more details of interest, up to you to notice.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slbPxaFGA28


I am amazed by this- it's 25 degrees F and he is very deliberately leaving the lids off both hives while he describes what he is doing. Not only that, I saw that he gives the frames a second shake after leaving them outside for a bit to pick-up a few more stragglers on the combs. Amazing!

You pointed-out that the first hive (active one) was suspected queenless- was this diagnosis because of their restlessness? 

The title of the video translated that the purpose of the supplemental feeding was to treat against Nosema and another disease that I am not sure it translated correctly- did he outline his rationale in his monologue?

While I did not see him take the lid off the first hive, I noticed that he applied his plastic sheeting and a quilt before closing everything up- was this put back the way he found it?

Thanks again for the interesting video- just goes to show there are lots of different ways to keep bees.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I am amazed by this- it's 25 degrees F and he is very deliberately leaving the lids off both hives while he describes what he is doing. Not only that, I saw that he gives the frames a second shake after leaving them outside for a bit to pick-up a few more stragglers on the combs. Amazing!
> 
> You pointed-out that the first hive (active one) was suspected queenless- was this diagnosis because of their restlessness?
> 
> The title of the video translated that the purpose of the supplemental feeding was to treat against Nosema and another disease that I am not sure it translated correctly- did he outline his rationale in his monologue?
> 
> While I did not see him take the lid off the first hive, I noticed that he applied his plastic sheeting and a quilt before closing everything up- was this put back the way he found it?
> 
> Thanks again for the interesting video- just goes to show there are lots of different ways to keep bees.
> 
> Russ


I believe the fear of cold in the US is over-blown to the point of being irrational.
Partly so because US for the most part is rather mild/warm/subtropical region.
This somehow defaults to the idea of bees being very susceptible to cold.
Well, the bees have lots of robustness in them (the northern bees maybe especially so due to the long evolution in cold climates).
Thanks to the youtube - seeing is believing.

Queen-less bees - he told a short story about "why"; there was some history there; here was pretty sure after seeing their status.

Artemisia is routinely added to sugar feeds in East Euro (syrup or candy) - a good natural treatment from Nosema. He did that. 
However, there was a discussion of his "no-insulation" way contributing into the diarrhea - bees have to really work hard to maintain cluster temps with no insulation.
They consume much more food and the intestines fill up too quickly - a big problem in mid-January in colder regions (2-3 more months before flying weather).
I tend to agree - no-insulation maybe an over-kill. 
Some light insulation would be better (a light blanket).

He did apply the plastic and a blanket to the most stressed bees, after giving candy to them - at that point the bees are pretty much ON the frames and are exposed - have to cover them.

In general, it was not a good picture - too many problem colonies.
Some colonies started brooding (easy to determine by just how hot they are running, by hand) - not good - too early.

Many ways - yes.
But the fear of cold is overblown here - they should be well fed and dry most importantly.
However, too little insulation makes for inefficient wintering - takes lots of carbs to stay warm, obviously.
I think this keeper a little-bit too much into "no-insulation".
But also the wild swings in the weather have been bad and screwing the normal bee cycles - he complained on that (just like weather here in WI anymore).

There are also seasonal nuances:
- until February you do not want to over-insulate - this promotes brooding start too early;
- sometimes in February, you do want to add insulation - to promote brooding start and help them conserve energy when brooding


----------



## GregB

Winter is the reading time..

Found this gem published in Russian (translatable). 
2015
A good work about traditional bee-tree/log hive beekeeping of Bashkorostant:
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._mellifera_L_of_the_Republic_of_Bashkortostan

Here is one quote (page 152):


> ....found in hives invertebrates of 11 orders, 15 families, 16 genera and *about 20 species*...


(meaning conventional hives)



> ...found in bee-trees and log hives invertebrates of 14 orders, 30 families, 29 genera and *about 40 species*....


As you can see, the log hives have 2x the invertebrate life over the managed hives.
I don't want to even think about micro flora and micro fauna present in them.

The bee-trees/log hives are still managed using "twice-per-year" methods.
No treatmens of any kind, of course.
This is really the old-time traditional way.

Lots of good staff; will put up more later.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV;1691253[url said:


> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/292151551_Temnaa_lesnaa_pcela_Apis_mellifera_mellifera_L_Respubliki_Baskortostan_Dark_forest_bee_Apis_mellifera_mellifera_L_of_the_Republic_of_Bashkortostan[/url]


Off-topic, but I was just reading the story _"How Much Land Does a Man Need"_ by Tolstoy with the kids, in which the main protagonist went to buy land in the Bashkirs- with tragic results...


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Artemisia is routinely added to sugar feeds in East Euro (syrup or candy) - a good natural treatment from Nosema. He did that.
> However, there was a discussion of his "no-insulation" way contributing into the diarrhea - bees have to really work hard to maintain cluster temps with no insulation.
> They consume much more food and the intestines fill up too quickly - a big problem in mid-January in colder regions (2-3 more months before flying weather).
> 
> There are also seasonal nuances:
> - until February you do not want to over-insulate - this promotes brooding start too early;
> - sometimes in February, you do want to add insulation - to promote brooding start and help them conserve energy when brooding


I had to look up Artemisia- I assume this refers to the plant in the aster family (i.e. wormwood)?

The idea of coordinating insulation up top to help support appropriate brooding is an interesting concept- makes sense.

I can also appreciate how a drafty cavity would increase both the consumption of stores and the threat of Nosema.

Thanks for posting the video- that was interesting stuff.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ....(i.e. wormwood)?........Russ


Yes. One of those.
Don't know the exact species (there are several).


----------



## mischief

GregV said:


> Winter is the reading time..
> 
> Found this gem published in Russian (translatable).
> 2015
> A good work about traditional bee-tree/log hive beekeeping of Bashkorostant:
> https://www.researchgate.net/public..._mellifera_L_of_the_Republic_of_Bashkortostan
> 
> Here is one quote (page 152):
> 
> (meaning conventional hives)
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, the log hives have 2x the invertebrate life over the managed hives.
> I don't want to even think about micro flora and micro fauna present in them.
> 
> The bee-trees/log hives are still managed using "twice-per-year" methods.
> No treatmens of any kind, of course.
> This is really the old-time traditional way.
> 
> Lots of good staff; will put up more later.


So....my question is.....Why?
Why such a huge difference?

Second question is how do we/I get our hives back to having such a wide range of???? ...I dont even know what to call it.
I was going to say genetic diversity, but its much more than that and I cant find the right words.

I know that my hive has had over winter, 3 other lifeforms-slugs, native ****roaches and ants, 4 if I count the one centipede.
I was thrilled with this even though ****roaches are THE one bug that make my toes curl...but you are saying they could have much more.
So, How?


----------



## Oldtimer

mischief said:


> So....my question is.....Why?


If hives that are worked more are doing worse, there is something wrong with the beekeeping.


----------



## mischief

I wasnt asking about hives doing worse, I was asking about why such a difference in other lifeforms in those hives compared to so called managed hives.


----------



## Oldtimer

Why would you think?


----------



## mischief

Thinking is good


----------



## GregB

mischief said:


> So....my question is.....Why?
> Why such a huge difference?
> 
> Second question is how do we/I get our hives back to having such a wide range of???? ...I dont even know what to call it.
> I was going to say genetic diversity, but its much more than that and I cant find the right words.
> 
> I know that my hive has had over winter, 3 other lifeforms-slugs, native ****roaches and ants, 4 if I count the one centipede.
> I was thrilled with this even though ****roaches are THE one bug that make my toes curl...but you are saying they could have much more.
> So, How?


Well...

1)Difference is obviously showing how the conventional, managed hive micro-environment is.... crappy; 
being routinely chemically treated is not helping in any way (be it even "harmless" OA - it still does not belong in the hive - no one really understands the entire complexity);
micro-climate of the conventional hive is a part of it - conventional hive being essentially a modified fruit crate for convenience (how the large scale industrial beekeeping started)

One quote in the book is this (loosely translated) - "a properly constructed bee-tree should work up to 150 years".
Historically, a beekeeping family would own thousands of bee-trees; the trees would stay in the family for generations.

Notice, they actually build those bee-trees since the natural bee-tree are few and are less convenient to work.
Typically, they would carve a hive (it is called - bort') into a living tree so that the tree keeps growing around the hive.
When doing so (the hive carving), they mimic the natural bee hollows as closely as possible - just the common, historic way (you mimic what you see exists naturally).

This legacy bee-tree business is doing well despite being negatively affected by the varroa, incoming from the surrounding conventional apiaries.
Anyway, a large topic.

2)How.... 
The traditional bee-tree style beekeeping has many immediate answers, actually.
Not all answers are logistically convenient, but still doable.
I am gradually digesting a couple of books I have handy.

This is not for mass pollination/mass cheap honey production/mass bee-for-sale production businesses.


----------



## lharder

I appreciate other perspectives from other parts of the world. If we could only see more material from Brazil where they are working with African hybrids.

I watched that video and have to say I wasn't impressed with the clusters he had. It looked like to me the hives could have used more protection. As for the cold combines, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. And of course its the spring when the results really show. To insulate was a decision I made as I figured a hive box was a poor proxy for a tree hollow in terms of protection. Less work keeping warm, less eating, less starvation, less loss of bees, and ultimately more honey for me was part of the thinking process. I don't insulate snugly, rather I tape together a dome of rigid insulation that I can take off and do a hive inspection in the middle of winter if I have to. It keeps the wind off, allows some moisture to escape an probably hopefully create a zone of warmth in the upper part of the hive.


----------



## GregB

lharder said:


> ....... It looked like to me the hives could have used more protection. .....


Lately in that region they are getting into almost too much into experimentation, IMO.
I say they experiment much more then here on the west.
This is both bad and good.
I am really pleased looking at the equipment options originating from down East.
I also appreciate the folks sharing their experimentation - told them so few times.

Speaking of the insulation, there is now a "no-insulation" crowd (as was presented), based on the premise that "the bees do not heat the hive". Well, that too depends on the equipment.

Tree-type/warre-type hives are doing much better with no insulation and only insulated cover.

Single box Dadants, on the other hand, are not doing too well with no insulation - too much energy dissipation - we just observed that. Even a minimal blanket on the top would be improvement.
But 10R poly slab is an overkill too - they just stick to it as the warmest place in the hive; they eat all the honey through the tops, and they quickly run out of the stores in close reach.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Historically, a beekeeping family would own thousands of bee-trees; the trees would stay in the family for generations.


I noticed that Wikipedia indicates that some scholars think that the original meaning of Bashkir is "beekeeper". Sounds like there is quite a long and storied beekeeping legacy in that region.


----------



## mischief

I put some ceiling insulation over the inner cover because I could feel the heat of the cluster through the cover.
The reasoning behind doing this was, if I could feel that heat then it was escaping, if its escaping then the bees are losing it, so get it back down.
Seems to be working so far.


----------



## lharder

GregV said:


> Lately in that region they are getting into almost too much into experimentation, IMO.
> I say they experiment much more then here on the west.
> This is both bad and good.
> I am really pleased looking at the equipment options originating from down East.
> I also appreciate the folks sharing their experimentation - told them so few times.
> 
> Speaking of the insulation, there is now a "no-insulation" crowd (as was presented), based on the premise that "the bees do not heat the hive". Well, that too depends on the equipment.
> 
> Tree-type/warre-type hives are doing much better with no insulation and only insulated cover.
> 
> Single box Dadants, on the other hand, are not doing too well with no insulation - too much energy dissipation - we just observed that. Even a minimal blanket on the top would be improvement.
> But 10R poly slab is an overkill too - they just stick to it as the warmest place in the hive; they eat all the honey through the tops, and they quickly run out of the stores in close reach.


I have 2 inch poly on top of my hives in winter, mostly to prevent condensation there. I want it to happen on the sides, not the top of the cluster. Different decisions seem to be made re cluster location. Some are on top, some further down. Also different decisions re buildup timing. Some have filled 4 medium boxes by April (those get light quickly), and others bide their time. I had upper entrances for a time to reduce moisture, but I think that just makes things more difficult for small clusters to have that extra draft. Big clusters can deal with it. But overall I have done away with them for the winter time. What I like about some insulation is it gives a cluster some flexibility to reorganize during a cold spell after a warm one or if they have exhausted their local stores. I've seen some dead clusters that seem disorganized, like the cold settled in to quickly for them form a proper cluster. At some point I will do some experimenting with some measurables to see what difference it makes in terms of build up, weight etc.


----------



## GregB

> At some point I will do some experimenting with some measurables to see what difference it makes in terms of build up, weight etc.


I think I pretty much found my wintering formula, granted 1) my base frame is more tall than wide and 2) priority is to support small-cluster wintering.


----------



## Litsinger

lharder said:


> I had upper entrances for a time to reduce moisture, but I think that just makes things more difficult for small clusters to have that extra draft. Big clusters can deal with it. But overall I have done away with them for the winter time. What I like about some insulation is it gives a cluster some flexibility to reorganize during a cold spell after a warm one or if they have exhausted their local stores.


lharder:

I appreciate this observation. This winter I elected to leave the upper entrances on as an experiment, but recent discussions on this and other threads have me questioning this approach. It is helpful to learn what you have noticed in this regard.


----------



## GregB

Now we are talking some real winter and good wintering selection going.
Equipment/setup testing too.
Temps are in C's.


----------



## lharder

Litsinger said:


> lharder:
> 
> I appreciate this observation. This winter I elected to leave the upper entrances on as an experiment, but recent discussions on this and other threads have me questioning this approach. It is helpful to learn what you have noticed in this regard.


I saw a presentation of a guy who insulated with and without top entrances. He put temperature and humidity sensors and recorded variations in both. Without a top entrance was a much more stable environment. I had decent wintering success compared to the previous year. However the previous year was much harsher in terms of repeated cold spells. Last winter was mild but long.


----------



## Hillbillybees

Back to your original post. Your need or wish for some strong hives to die out. Just get in touch with your local bee club. Tell them you want to donate some bees to any new beekeeper who really cannot afford to buy bees. They bring a box. Shake all the bees into it. Instruct them on feeding for wax production and your done. At least the bees will have a chance and possibly this person will care for them and have the time to do so. Gone is gone whether dead or not. You have helped your neighbor and got your equipment back to play around with.


----------



## GregB

lharder said:


> I saw a presentation of a guy who insulated with and without top entrances. He put temperature and humidity sensors and recorded variations in both. Without a top entrance was a much more stable environment.


There is this recurring assumption that the external entrance must *directly *connect wintering bees to the outside.
Many talks and studies keep dwelling on this same idea trying to solve unnecessary problems.
Why?
The direct exposure is unnecessary. 
Chimney effects through the nest are not necessary.
You can do both - have an upper entrance for better ventilation AND not subject the bees to excessive energy losses because of it.

Wintering in hive-inside-hive configurations really do work and stupid easy to implement.
Insulated dummy frame usage - all it takes.

This allows for both - better energy efficiency and moisture dissipation.
The same exact way can be done from a single-level to N-level hive systems just as easily - does not matter much.
















The bees on the photograph are wintering as the drawing shows.
All of my bees are wintering this same way (some exactly as pictured; others with bottom entrances only - ventilated through the roofs).


----------



## AzaleaHill

lharder said:


> I appreciate other perspectives from other parts of the world. If we could only see more material from Brazil where they are working with African hybrids.


Having lived in Phoenix, Arizona for a number of years, I do know a bit about Africanized bees. Many beeks actually collect swarms and keep them.

Pros:
- they are very heavy honey producers. This offsets the cons if you know how to manage them.

Cons:
- they aggressively defend the hive
- they swarm small and often - in swarms of 5000 to 10000 bees. For this reason, health hives are much smaller than European hives, 30,000 to 50,000 bees.
- they often abscond for no discernible reason (possibly just due to regular inspections)
- when they swarm, they often pull bees from neighboring hives. Africanized bees seem to have a very high pheromone level which probably accounts for their aggressive nature.
- African drones seem to be more successful at mating than European drones.

I was once hiking in the McDowell Mountain Preserve, east of Scottsdale when I heard what sounded like a low flying plane. I looked around and saw nothing at first. Then, not far away, about 30 feet up, I saw a long dark streak that began passing directly overhead. It was about 3 feet wide and maybe a hundred feet long. It was a bee swarm in transit and it was LOUD. In just a few seconds it disappeared, flying east towards a residential area.
Quite an experience.


----------



## GregB

Regarding this:


little_john said:


> .........really wish I could find out why my virgins have such trouble mating ...
> 'best
> LJ


In this same paper I brought up (Dark forest bee Apis mellifera mellifera L. of the Republic of Bashkortostan - see above), starting page 88, there is a study regarding queen mating success.
In short, they concluded that too small of a mating nucs have significantly lower success mating rates.
Like it or not - those are the findings.

Find the chapter and auto-translate it (Google will spit out "uterus" instead of "queen" - ignore that non-sense).
I mean to translate that chapter's main points but really have no time.


----------



## Litsinger

lharder said:


> Without a top entrance was a much more stable environment. I had decent wintering success compared to the previous year. However the previous year was much harsher in terms of repeated cold spells. Last winter was mild but long.


Thank you, lharder. I sincerely appreciate the feedback. Our winters have been the exact opposite- last year was unseasonably cold and this year it has been a bit above average. Your commentary gives me cause to investigate top insulating rather than providing copious ventilation as a means of moisture control.

Thanks again for the input. 

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> You can do both - have an upper entrance for better ventilation AND not subject the bees to excessive energy losses because of it.


GregV: This is what I appreciate about your thread- you are bringing some really interesting and thought-provoking ideas out.

While ultimately our approaches may differ (based on preferences and regional variations), I've learned a lot by thinking through the concepts you are working with.

Russ


----------



## CLSranch

I seen this on mother earth news and thought it neat. Yet a lot of work and price. But I think 1 hive made/designed like this would resemble more of a tree and bee nice to have at the house.
https://www.motherearthnews.com/diy/diy-better-bee-hive-zm0z18aszsphe
yay me my first time to successfully copy and paste. 

It use's 2x10 and 2x8 for walls. A little thicker.


----------



## GregB

CLSranch said:


> I seen this on mother earth news and thought it neat. Yet a lot of work and price. But I think 1 hive made/designed like this would resemble more of a tree and bee nice to have at the house.
> https://www.motherearthnews.com/diy/diy-better-bee-hive-zm0z18aszsphe
> yay me my first time to successfully copy and paste.
> 
> It use's 2x10 and 2x8 for walls. A little thicker.


It is the same as this:
http://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/layens-beehive-design.shtml

The same guy.
He got me started with my first rigs, honestly.
I evolved along the way some.


----------



## GregB

lharder said:


> If we could only see more material from Brazil where they are working with African hybrids..


Swarm trapping and cut-outs in Brazil.

They say - you do not want to put traps where the monkeys live (standing alone trees are the best; around blooming trees is the best).

Also notice - no extraordinary gear is used. Just regular stuff.
In fact, they are walking around in flip-flops and don't sweat about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkF-Ml02nbk


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Swarm trapping and cut-outs in Brazil.


Neat video- definitely not their first rodeo.

I was impressed with their starter strip approach- quick and uncomplicated.


----------



## GregB

Down to nine units.

Of the remaining nine units:
- 6 units I am not worried about much
- 3 units worried somewhat

No dead-out foraging this year. Zilch.
But I better start planning for some actual honey crop in the coming season. 
Should be enough bees on hand to do something outside of just recovering losses.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Should be enough bees on hand to do something outside of just recovering losses.


GregV:

Glad to hear that you still have 9 colonies plugging-away- I imagine having options this spring will be a good problem to have?

Good luck to you with the subsequent weeks of winter that remain.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> I imagine having options this spring will be a good problem to have?


Imagine, by this time last year I was down to *three *units (one subsequently failed in mid-February).
So I had to rebuild from *two *hives remaining.

Sitting on nine units is much better problem to have.
Even 5-6 units in April give many options for both rebuilding and crop.
If this works out, once again I will be frantically cutting more wood in the garage come spring - new frame design.

PS: 
the main reason I am at a better place this season compared to the last - I implemented OTS and it seems to be working for me;
I have four July starts going for me (three of these look very stable; one is a so-so but still holding as of today);
also have 2nd winter queen sent through the fly-back cleansing as a part of my attempt at July splits;

so, these five colonies are the survivors of 2017/2018 winter and I mostly bank on these until April.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Imagine, by this time last year I was down to *three *units (one subsequently failed in mid-February).
> So I had to rebuild from *two *hives remaining.
> 
> PS:
> the main reason I am at a better place this season compared to the last - I implemented OTS and it seems to be working for me;


This is encouraging, GregV. I know I for one can sometimes dwell in a "glass half empty" mentality, but in your case, and considering your progress year-over-year, it seems you are better off now than you were a year ago- so progress has been made.

Also, you've been able to do a fair bit of experimenting (and have been willing to allow us to experience it vicariously), so I imagine you are a bit wiser too.

Always enjoy catching-up on the new things you are trying, reading or watching (even when it is in Russian)... good luck keeping up this year.

Russ


----------



## GregB

I suppose I need to ping back before the month is over..
Still have 9 units.
One more month of winter to go (-18C today with wind on my walk to the office this AM). 
Winter continues as usual into the March, per the reported forecast.
Make or break it now.

Worried about one valuable, promising unit - they lost 50% or more of the cluster due to direct freezing in place when had several nights at or below -30C.
Again, my own darn fault - got lazy and did not implement the winter setup properly (would not be a big deal really, but the darn arctic vortex did some damage).
Well, pulled out 4 frames of frozen bees; sandwiched, extra insulated the remaining 4 frames, added sugar on top - fingers double-crossed the queen is still alive. 
The survivors seem to be holding per their thermometer readings.

In the better news, finally got to check my last remote hive due to random 0C day on Saturday. 
Was a good chance to open them and look.
One of my better units - they were so quiet I was worried for a minute, until cracked a side-frame - all good (these are just great Northern bees that quietly hanging there and no fuss).
This was the last unit to get some "cheap insurance" - be a shame if they ran out of supplies mid-march after all the beating they already absorbed.
Shoveled them back with the snow up to the eye balls and forgot to take the shoveled-in picture.
This is the pic of them *before *they got shoveled in.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

GregV said:


> Worried about one valuable, promising unit - they lost 50% or more of the cluster due to direct freezing in place when had several nights at or below -30C.
> Again, my own darn fault - got lazy and did not implement the winter setup properly (would not be a big deal really, but the darn arctic vortex did some damage).


We have -30C every winter, sometimes weeks with no break -20--30. I have double entrances in winter, sometimes only 18 mm plywood, no tarpaper. Bees survive. 

IMHO: There is no way bees freeze to death if they have at least 5 frames of bees and enough stores they can burn.

Or maybe we in Finland just have special bees...


----------



## GregB

Juhani Lunden said:


> We have -30C every winter, sometimes weeks with no break -20--30. I have double entrances in winter, sometimes only 18 mm plywood, no tarpaper. Bees survive.
> 
> IMHO: There is no way bees freeze to death if they have at least 5 frames of bees and enough stores they can burn.
> 
> Or maybe we in Finland just have special bees...


And yet they did.
In this very hive:








I should have shifted them away from the entrances and blocked off the cold hall-way by a follower board (works for me very well).
I kind of just thought - neh, a strong cluster on 7-8 frames should be fine, assuming average WI winter.
Well, these bees appear to be of somewhat Southern traits (they would come out flying every chance they got - not exactly my favorite trait).
Maybe there were not so good at tight clustering. 
But upon the post-mortem look, they looked very good - just dead.

In any case, if the queen is still alive and makes it - these are bees to still propagate (coming from a not-treated/5-year line).
At this point I have a single predominant selection criteria - if they stay alive not-treated, I pull them along as valuable enough to still contribute.

Of course you have special bees in Finland.
No one dumps on you truck loads of almond bees from California every single year.
I'd be surprised if you still do not have locally adapted bees; I wish I was in Finland that way.


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> Look:
> 1)I am a very aggressive splitter - my 2 survivors from last winter became 7 hives (6 strong and 1 smallish nuc; there were more, some nucs failed).
> 2)In addition I caught few swarms (very late) and made more side-projects nucs - so I was up to 14 units in September (13 units now)
> 3)Also lost a swarm, oh well.
> 
> Now, IF I wanted to I could have had only 4-5 very big units and made enough honey to go around.
> But this also means I only had 4-5 queens on hand and low redundancy and not much selection going (the most important project for now).
> 
> In short:
> * if you expand a lot, you do not get much honey if any
> * you keep them big and few in counts, you get more honey, but fewer queens
> 
> So, I do work on expansion-side.
> Do you see that?


GregV I agree with your strategy. Quick question. Are you able to extract honey from deep frames in the spring or late winter to reuse combs? I have a couple dead outs that are 3 deeps and had a lot of honey in the top box, like mostly full. Or do you add it to splits to make next years winter stores? My concern is that by the time I get to it it will be partly crystallized.

As far as the folks who think bees dieing is some how in-humane....we shoot cattle in the head and eat them so get real. So when Bears eat bees honey and brood, do they give them a drug to make the pain go away? Side point there are keepers in the north of Michigan's UP that shake on the first snow and take all the honey and extract. Put packages on the comb in the spring and do it all over again, I seen like 10-20 pounds in threads makes this workable $$ wise. I think to each their own. We are a long way forward from Skeps and bee trees.... I try not to press my way into others. I am interested in others ways as options are always nice to have in a pinch


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Gray Goose said:


> GregV I agree with your strategy. Quick question. Are you able to extract honey from deep frames in the spring or late winter to reuse combs? I have a couple dead outs that are 3 deeps and had a lot of honey in the top box, like mostly full. Or do you add it to splits to make next years winter stores? My concern is that by the time I get to it it will be partly crystallized.
> ...........


I am so alternative - I don't even own an extractor. 
Have no space or budget for it.
Though I may make one.

My alternative strategy has been:
- keep the frames directly in hives and take what I need, when I need it, and Crash & Strain them in small batches;
- I also invested into the second freezer and freeze frames for later use (for myself and/or bees)
- I don't sell conventional honey and have no plans to sell honey (so don't even care for conventional extraction)
- I am foundation-less and have lots of drone comb to be recycled out - I C&S it
- I also am trying to rotate out as much badly formed comb as I can - I C&S it
- I am also trying to rotate out as much excessively large cell comb as I can (forcing bees to rebuild) - I C&S it

So by the time I am done recycling all the combs I want, I got myself enough honey harvested.
Whatever left - left for the bees. 
It is how it has been so far.
Things may change once I get a working, alternative business model figured out.

If have lots of honey frames - I would freeze them - frozen frames will not crystallize much, if at all.
For now honey can stay outside, if cold enough.
Once the frames are in stable frozen status, they can stay stable for long time.
You then have time to decide how and when to utilize them.
By now all my frozen honey is gone - partially we ate it; partially bees ate it.

In cases when I feed the honey back, I would thaw the frames, uncap them, spray the combs with lots of water (fill all the empty cells with water too). If water is available next to any partially crystallized honey, they will dilute the honey as needed.
I have not observed any honey crystals thrown away.

So - lots of honey is a good problem to have; it will not go bad in any case; don't rush to use it somehow immediately - usages will come along.
My take.


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> I am so alternative - I don't even own an extractor.
> Have no space or budget for it.
> Though I may make one.
> 
> My alternative strategy has been:
> - keep the frames directly in hives and take what I need, when I need it, and Crash & Strain them in small batches;
> - I also invested into the second freezer and freeze frames for later use (for myself and/or bees)
> - I don't sell conventional honey and have no plans to sell honey (so don't even care for conventional extraction)
> - I am foundation-less and have lots of drone comb to be recycled out - I C&S it
> - I also am trying to rotate out as much badly formed comb as I can - I C&S it
> - I am also trying to rotate out as much excessively large cell comb as I can (forcing bees to rebuild) - I C&S it
> 
> So by the time I am done recycling all the combs I want, I got myself enough honey harvested.
> Whatever left - left for the bees.
> It is how it has been so far..


Thanks GregV, I may "copy/steal" some of your concepts. This year I am doing 2 or 3 goals simultaneously. Moving toward All mediums, moving toward foundation-less, moving toward Small/natural cell size. I have picked up 300 Foundation less frames (All medium) . I hope to half shift my bees this year and then second half shift next year. I wanted to save cost on no longer needing to buy the foundation, save the time to install it. Also I see some chatter about chemicals in the wax used for foundation. IMO the chemicals are not helping the bees immune systems. Small cell would eventually result after a generation or 2 of foundation-less, as a side effect. The large cell I was going to extract, and re use for supers. I surmised if bees would fill drone comb with honey , they also would fill large worker cell comb with honey. C&S was where i started. I did get an extractor, just a small 2 frame and I love it. the empty comb is nice to have for lots of things. I just ratchet strap it down to a pick nick table in the garage for the weekend, and go at it. you can do 10 supers a day that way, Strain in the same gear I did C&S in. The deep frames blow out faster and are heaver to deal with. The big goal is to get to Small, natural cell to assist with TF so lots of balls in the air. Thanks for your info.

GG


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Gray Goose said:


> Thanks GregV, I may "copy/steal" some of your concepts. ...Small cell would eventually result after a generation or 2 of foundation-less, as a side effect. ...
> 
> GG


Sure thing; this is what we do - exchange the ideas.

Extraction: 
I totally can see how a small extractor (2 frame) is actually a good thing to have around.
Yes, often times saving the combs is very desirable.
I just hate buying a thing to be used only 1-2 times per year.
With that, I think there has to be a more generic equipment to be used for both conventional extraction AND C&S.
I got a pretty good idea how to do it and want to try maybe even this coming summer.
This is IF I have enough bees to go for a bigger honey harvest (not out of the woods yet for another month).

Notice, I am not a SC proponent and don't pursue it at all.
I have produced many actual numbers by now how SC is not really applicable much to anything (outside of being a strong attribute of AHB variants - which happen to be good genetically TF material). Larger cell Russians display just as good TF properties.

I am a natural cell (NC) proponent and letting the bees build whatever the heck they want (large or small, but more likely some medium size).
Since here in the US we have not a slight idea what our bees even are - a hodge-podge pile of mutts what we all have.


----------



## GregB

Hillbillybees said:


> Back to your original post. *Your need or wish for some strong hives to die out.* Just get in touch with your local bee club. Tell them you want to donate some bees to any new beekeeper who really cannot afford to buy bees. They bring a box. Shake all the bees into it. Instruct them on feeding for wax production and your done. *At least the bees will have a chance and possibly this person will care for them and have the time to do so.* Gone is gone whether dead or not. You have helped your neighbor and got your equipment back to play around with.


Somehow I missed this post; or maybe I forgot (typical).

Well, like I said I don't know which ones of my bees will die.
The survivors will stick with me and we keep working along.

It would be illogical to give away bees that are actually good enough to make it through (in mite infested context).
I did a lot of work to get my bees (these are all free - but I worked hard to get them, if that counts).

Tomorrow is March 1st and it looks like 9 units should make it through just fine (all the stronger units, in fact).

In fact, my bees are much better off with me (not some rookie beekeeper wanna be).
A new beekeeper likely kill them anyway (treating or not treating).
Consider giving bees away *at the end of the season* *without any resources whatsoever* (as suggested).
Now that would be a useless move and almost certain waste of bees (wintering in Wisconsin is brutal this year).


----------



## GregB

Found a video from about a place where I grew up.
Setting out the bees from storage.
March 31.
6 months of no flight.
Now, these are some real AMM bees. No other bee can handle this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jwX-B1GAwc


----------



## GregB

dup


----------



## GregB

Unfortunately, 4 straight months of no flying weather started hammering on my bees.
The most "southern types" can not take it no more - they must get out and poop ASAP.
Well, I think I only have one "southern" unit left alive.
As of yesterday documented three more drop-offs.
Down to 6 units and winter still continues.
The losses in March - these ones do hurt after making it this far.

The worst part - my second strongest, valuable survivor-line hive pooped all over themselves and called it quits. 
Just could not hold it anymore.
It is a shame, I really needed this one to stay afloat.
Will probably do post-mort pictures of this one.

In my area, this year is the real test for the winter hardiness.
Too much "Italian" or "Caucasian" blood this year is a liability and it probably shows in my collection.
Last two years we had unusually warm stretches in February that allowed for plenty of mid-winter cleansing flights.
None of that slack this year. 
Have to hold the poop.

Back in 60's and 70's in the USSR, they did a great disservice in that the mellow and productive Caucasian bees became the new "standard" to be introduced across the entire county (disregarding the ecological region requirements). Somehow no one wanted to deal anymore with the feisty local AMMs and the Caucasions were the hit and the magic bullet, as directed by the Government.

Pretty soon it become obvious what the advantages of the localized bees really meant - the Caucasians just could not hold the poop long enough, simply put.
It also become obvious that the productivity and gentleness of the Caucasians did not matter much if they could not winter.
Very recently I posted a video of the local AMMs carried out of the shed after 6 months of no flight.
The Caucasians would never make it under such requirements.

So, it is too bad - I just lost my baseline TF queen. 
Hard wintering just was not her strong side now I can see.
Only locally mated daughter of hers is surviving still - they are also covered in poop head to a toe, and I am surprise they are even alive.
We urgently need a flying day - maybe this coming Thursday; fingers crossed. 

I hope the units of my "northern" line are still holding if they really have any true "northern blood" in them.
Did not check.


----------



## lharder

When the winter drags on we get lots of losses regionally as well. That what happens when you get queens from Hawaii, New Zealand, Chile. New beekeepers get hit the hardest. They have to figure out how to beekeep and get unadapted bees. 

We have had a miserable February and early March. I like at least 0C calm days to pop lids and check food. I was going to go out today, but its windy. I have some nucs on the verge of running out I'm guessing and I want to get more food on them asap.


----------



## GregB

lharder said:


> When the winter drags on we get lots of losses regionally as well. That what happens when you get queens from Hawaii, New Zealand, Chile. New beekeepers get hit the hardest. They have to figure out how to beekeep and get unadapted bees.
> 
> We have had a miserable February and early March. I like at least 0C calm days to pop lids and check food. I was going to go out today, but its windy. I have some nucs on the verge of running out I'm guessing and I want to get more food on them asap.


Yes, in my case of hodgepodge pile of mutts of unknown origins - one has no idea what to expect.
Last two years were favorable towards bees with low winter hardiness.
This winter is a brutal and honest reminder that the basics still do count very much.
Mite resistance is no help if the bee is not winter hardy on very basic level.

This is subjective and I will verify this yet - but am pretty sure the darkest pheno-types of the bees I got will make it through.
In 1-2 weeks we will should know.
My "yellow"-ish bees took real beating with only one unit remaining (still a big question mark now).

Now that I brought the winter hardiness up, I did googling/re-reading on the subject.
And indeed, I did remember correctly, the Caucasians in genereal (and their hybrids) are terrible at wintering beyond 2-3 months.
Same for the Italians.
They require frequent cleansing flights.
The "wet" honey capping will suggest some Caucasian blood presence. 
I had quite a bit of "wet" honey mixed in and probably did have some Caucasian influence.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Unfortunately, 4 straight months of no flying weather started hammering on my bees.
> The most "southern types" can not take it no more - they must get out and poop ASAP.
> 
> So, it is too bad - I just lost my baseline TF queen.
> Hard wintering just was not her strong side now I can see.
> Only locally mated daughter of hers is surviving still - they are also covered in poop head to a toe, and I am surprise they are even alive.
> We urgently need a flying day - maybe this coming Thursday; fingers crossed.
> 
> I hope the units of my "northern" line are still holding if they really have any true "northern blood" in them.
> Did not check.


If your bees can fly this week you are lucky. Be at least 3 more weeks for mine to fly, we still have 24 or so inches of snow here. Be mid April till we have forage.
Those raising Queen already are really Lucky.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> If your bees can fly this week you are lucky. Be at least 3 more weeks for mine to fly, we still have 24 or so inches of snow here. Be mid April till we have forage.
> Those raising Queen already are really Lucky.


Unsure how much luck that will be.
Forecast is attached, not exactly great - a good chance of rain:


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV Most of the 2018 packages here are down and out for winter.
I have one swarm, I caught in 17 built up overwintered last winter, and Have hopes for if they can wait 3 or 4 more weeks to poop.
They are showing a nice cluster with most of a deep and a medium of stores over the cluster yet. with any luck I'll split this 4 ways in june.
Going to hang lots of traps out this year, seems the local stock is needed for these long winters. However springs like this rarely have lots of local swarms, somewhat a catch 22.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> GregV Most of the 2018 packages here are down and out for winter.
> I have one swarm, I caught in 17 built up overwintered last winter, and Have hopes for if they can wait 3 or 4 more weeks to poop.
> They are showing a nice cluster with most of a deep and a medium of stores over the cluster yet. with any luck I'll split this 4 ways in june.
> Going to hang lots of traps out this year, seems the local stock is needed for these long winters. However springs like this rarely have lots of local swarms, somewhat a catch 22.
> 
> GG


Unfortunately, the majority of those "local" swarms are nothing by escaped packaged bees (1st, 2nd, 3rd generations - but still packaged bees; most likely Italian types).
Having anything truly localized is a huge pain with all those packages shipped from down south.

I will be hunting for the swarms entire season, not just spring.
Does not matter - even a late August swarm can be a gem. Will keep looking for the one.
Bee hunting is fun, regardless. 

Anyway, this season is not starting well because I don't care a bit to be having dead-outs just about now. 
March is a bad time for dead-outs (after all the honey already been eaten too - it is a loose-loose).
I have very good uses for live bees in just few weeks now (but no uses for the dead bees).


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> GregV Most of the 2018 packages here are down and out for winter.
> .........
> GG


GG, 
What is your approximate location, btw?


----------



## Gray Goose

Well GregV may as well take some empty dark comb and make a few swarm traps. Very little to loose.

I somewhat disagree on the "Unfortunately, the majority of those "local" swarms are nothing by escaped packaged bees (1st, 2nd, 3rd generations - but still packaged bees; most likely Italian types)." Where I am the local beekeepers have aged and gone out of business. I know a lot of the locals and not many buy packages from the south. There always have been a "few" swarms in this area that come from stock here for 10 or more years. Sometime I get an early swarm with a laying queen, these are healthy bees out growing their home, and over wintering. Late year or marked queens I would agree with you. I pull many of the traps by July 4th as the later ones are not the better ones. I can always re-queen them with a preferred stock. At this point any overwintered Queens swarming out could be resistant local stock, so If I have empty's from dead outs, I can have them out in the field or in the garage. I agree northern Midwest has a big loss for the year. May as well focus on what made it through the winter swarming into your empty Boxes. I am not getting packages unless I am totally wiped out. I am hoping to catch a couple swarms and influence my stock. I hope you have enough left to get a few splits this year.
GG


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> GG,
> What is your approximate location, btw?


A little south of the Mackinaw bridge In Michigan , 4b ish


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Well GregV may as well take some empty dark comb and make a few swarm traps. Very little to loose.
> 
> I somewhat disagree on the "Unfortunately, the majority of those "local" swarms are nothing by escaped packaged bees (1st, 2nd, 3rd generations - but still packaged bees; most likely Italian types)." Where I am the local beekeepers have aged and gone out of business. I know a lot of the locals and not many buy packages from the south. There always have been a "few" swarms in this area that come from stock here for 10 or more years. Sometime I get an early swarm with a laying queen, these are healthy bees out growing their home, and over wintering. Late year or marked queens I would agree with you. I pull many of the traps by July 4th as the later ones are not the better ones. I can always re-queen them with a preferred stock. At this point any overwintered Queens swarming out could be resistant local stock, so If I have empty's from dead outs, I can have them out in the field or in the garage. I agree northern Midwest has a big loss for the year. May as well focus on what made it through the winter swarming into your empty Boxes. I am not getting packages unless I am totally wiped out. I am hoping to catch a couple swarms and influence my stock. I hope you have enough left to get a few splits this year.
> GG


Well, if you have some real local swarms - good for you! 
I know some places are clearly blessed with local population.
But around bigger cities maybe more like me.

At my location - it is "package town".
The local seller just spammed the beekeepers list - "....first load could come as early as March 22nd...."
Here we go again.
I guess, they will be installing them in the snow, which is typical in March here.

Yes, fingers crossed for my darker bees.
Here is one 2018 swarm, still riding it out as pictured yesterday.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> A little south of the Mackinaw bridge In Michigan , 4b ish


Been there on vacation.
Drove over the bridge.
Sleeping Bear Dunes, etc.
Have friends near Traverse City.
One cool place.
Want to go back!


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Unfortunately, 4 straight months of no flying weather started hammering on my bees.


GregV:

Sorry for the losses- I know firsthand that it is disappointing to lose good stock, especially when you get so tantalizingly close to being 'out of the woods'.

While I haven't first-hand experience with beekeeping in Northern environments, it seems plain that beekeeping is harder in general in colder climates and maybe especially so in a treatment free approach.

I applaud your diligent efforts to find suitable genetics and management for your area and I do sincerely hope your good remaining genetic material pulls through- here in the warm corner of Kentucky we are starting to assume that winter is over...


----------



## GregB

Thanks, Russ.
I am still kind of shocked with the loss of my best old queen (2 winters - no treatments - going strong).
Then, the winter hardiness turned the real killer. 
Anyway, still afloat.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Anyway, still afloat.


Hope springs eternal, right? I cannot imagine 4 months with virtually no flight days. We just came through a solid 2 week stretch of very limited flying and there was much bee feces on the outside of the hives and on the ground when they got some decent weather on Sunday. This was the longest stretch of flightless days we had this winter. 

Considering this, it does seem to lend credence to your thought that Russian-type genetics might better fit your locale (i.e. frugal with stores, smaller clusters and late explosive growth) than the more temperate bee backgrounds.


----------



## nickhefferan

GregV said:


> Back in 60's and 70's in the USSR, they did a great disservice in that the mellow and productive Caucasian bees became the new "standard" to be introduced across the entire county (disregarding the ecological region requirements). Somehow no one wanted to deal anymore with the feisty local AMMs and the Caucasions were the hit and the magic bullet, as directed by the Government.





GregV said:


> This is subjective and I will verify this yet - but am pretty sure the darkest pheno-types of the bees I got will make it through.
> In 1-2 weeks we will should know.
> My "yellow"-ish bees took real beating with only one unit remaining (still a big question mark now).


I think I read nearly these same words in Keeping Bees with a Smile  really been enjoying reading what Lazutin had to say about bees.
Where I am (southwest Michigan) is a big package-buying part of the state, also several migratory beekeepers swing through the area for orchard pollination.
At the very least these swarms will draw comb, produce honey, and use the boxes.

But what I wouldn't give to try some of those feisty AMMs....


----------



## GregB

nickhefferan said:


> .....But what I wouldn't give to try some of those feisty AMMs....


Feisty AMMs are actually OK.
It is the beekeeping ways around the US are not flexible - "everyone and their brother must must use a multi-box Lang".
Things are finally changing some, but the non-Lang keepers are still an odd fringe.

Guess what - those multi-box Langs and the feisty AMMs are actually a misfit.
Partially why, the AMMs were ditched in favor of, oh so ever, mellow Italians.

Sure - because you can be sloppy, crush the bees, throw the boxes around, keep all boxes open - and STILL get away with it.
AMMs will let you know - this is NOT a good way to handle bees.
Running AMMs in multi-box, industrial Lang setup can be very non-pleasant and generally a bad idea for a backyard.
I see people actually doing it - but those are some advanced keepers.
All it is to it.

Deep horizontals is a very good way to keep AMMs (Lazutin, Dadant, Ukrainian, Layens) - these designs are not allowing for sloppy bee handling.
You are forced to work by a frame and that already makes the work gradual and incremental.
You keep the work opening controlled as in a hospital surgery room; that keeps the bees controlled and calm.

Also with these designs (IF large enough) you can get away without getting into the bees much - just not necessary.
Partially why I have the horizontal rigs - I can actually keep feisty bees and get away with it.
If keeping TF bees means keeping feisty bees - I am OK with it and prepared.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Hope springs eternal, right? I cannot imagine 4 months with virtually no flight days. We just came through a solid 2 week stretch of very limited flying and there was much bee feces on the outside of the hives and on the ground when they got some decent weather on Sunday. This was the longest stretch of flightless days we had this winter.
> 
> Considering this, it does seem to lend credence to your thought that Russian-type genetics might better fit your locale (i.e. frugal with stores, smaller clusters and late explosive growth) than the more temperate bee backgrounds.


In retrospect - the loss of the "yellow"-ish bees was a part of the testing project I have been running for a friend.
So I guess the two-year trial conclusion is this - they are NOT winter-hardy enough for zones 4/5.

Good bee for WI should not depend on mild winters just to get by.
Good local bee should be able to absorb any winter.

For long-term sustainable, local bee here - Russian-type/Carni-type bee is a good foundation.


----------



## BigBlackBirds

Gray Goose said:


> Well GregV may as well take some empty dark comb and make a few swarm traps. Very little to loose.
> 
> I somewhat disagree on the "Unfortunately, the majority of those "local" swarms are nothing by escaped packaged bees (1st, 2nd, 3rd generations - but still packaged bees; most likely Italian types)." Where I am the local beekeepers have aged and gone out of business. I know a lot of the locals and not many buy packages from the south. There always have been a "few" swarms in this area that come from stock here for 10 or more years. Sometime I get an early swarm with a laying queen, these are healthy bees out growing their home, and over wintering. Late year or marked queens I would agree with you. I pull many of the traps by July 4th as the later ones are not the better ones. I can always re-queen them with a preferred stock. At this point any overwintered Queens swarming out could be resistant local stock, so If I have empty's from dead outs, I can have them out in the field or in the garage. I agree northern Midwest has a big loss for the year. May as well focus on what made it through the winter swarming into your empty Boxes. I am not getting packages unless I am totally wiped out. I am hoping to catch a couple swarms and influence my stock. I hope you have enough left to get a few splits this year.
> GG


Gray Goose---you do realize that a HUGE % of the bees in this state end up in your general locale for the summer? The vast majority of commercial operations chase the thistle crop from north of mid state up to the bridge. Not package bees but a long ways from northern stock. And with sleeping bear being like the 2nd largest operation in the state I'd say you've got plenty of southern genes swarms to pick from. But hopefully you can grab swarms early enough in the season before the guys come off pollination and go to honey locations


----------



## Juhani Lunden

GregV said:


> My "yellow"-ish bees took real beating with only one unit remaining (still a big question mark now).
> 
> Same for the Italians.
> They require frequent cleansing flights.





GregV said:


> In retrospect - the loss of the "yellow"-ish bees was a part of the testing project I have been running for a friend.
> 
> 
> For long-term sustainable, local bee here - Russian-type/Carni-type bee is a good foundation.


I´m sorry to hear about your losses.
As I suspected earlier your bees are not suitable for long winters.
Just as a small detail in your messages I´m sure you agree that winter hardiness has nothing to do with color.

I get every now and then e-mails from Central Europe from beekeepers who wish to get some Finnish Italian bees, they have heard about their good wintering abilities. The Finnish Italians are yellow and they can stay in hive for 6 months no flying. No problems what so ever.


----------



## GregB

Juhani Lunden said:


> .... I´m sure you agree that winter hardiness has nothing to do with color..


Juhani, 
I am basically only making observations for my particular case.
Of course, I have some bias toward the dark bees.
I just like them, maybe because I grew up on AMM bee yard and was stung enough times.

Hybridization may produce outcomes no one can ever predict.
Exterior may or may not mean anything.
With that I would not even state - "hardiness has nothing to do with color" (because this means zero predictive power - too conclusive of a statement).
More correct statement would be, I feel: 
depending on exact situation, the predictive power of winter hardiness based upon exterior maybe anywhere between 0 and 1.

Let me make this statement (I have documentation to support this):
* the Far Eastern population of the so called Russian bees has two distinct sub-populations - Northern (dark) and Southern (yellow-ish)
* the Northern sub-population formed in more northern, forested, and mountainous areas of region (similar to USDA zones 3-4)
* the Southern sub-population formed in more southern, low-land areas (similar to USDA zone 5)
* the random inputs went into the Far Eastern Russian bees are some AMM, Italian, Grey Caucasian, Ukrainians/Macedonians (and likely more)
* *importantly * - formation and selection of the Far Eastern Russian was *completely random and chaotic with no systematic human attempts to direct the overal population formation*

The end result - *darker *northern highland (higher winter hardiness) and *lighter *southern lowland (lower winter hardiness) sub-populations as a result of un-managed hybridization and natural selection that was allowed enough time to properly develop (between 100 and 200 years).

For example (just restates what I outlined above):


> Е.В. Старостенко (1971) отмечает, что на севере (Хабаровский край) дальневосточные пчёлы по окраске и зимостойкости ближе к среднерусским, а на юге (Приморский край) встречаются миролюбивые с желтизной.


Source:
http://refy.ru/13/25902-zimostoykos...o-klimaticheskih-zonah-primorskogo-kraya.html

I do not believe bees in Finland went to a similar process (too much human selection was and still is involved).
Once humans are involved, the biases spoil the process and the results are skewed towards the selectors' personal goals and biases.
I am sure it is entirely possible to create bees with exterior and behaviors of the Italians and winter hardiness of the AMM - all in one.
It is even possible to sustain this bee long term (granted the external factors are supporting the trait).
But - once left to 100% natural selection - will this bee sustain on its own? 
The honest answer will not be definitive.

Tomorrow it is predicted +15C and partly sunny.
I should be able to do my final count and evaluation.
I even will take off few hours from my office to do this.
Wanting to do some final summary of what went into the winter and what came out (while I still remember each unit history).


----------



## Gray Goose

BigBlackBirds said:


> Gray Goose---you do realize that a HUGE % of the bees in this state end up in your general locale for the summer? The vast majority of commercial operations chase the thistle crop from north of mid state up to the bridge. Not package bees but a long ways from northern stock. And with sleeping bear being like the 2nd largest operation in the state I'd say you've got plenty of southern genes swarms to pick from. But hopefully you can grab swarms early enough in the season before the guys come off pollination and go to honey locations


GregV--I understand your information. I have searched for and located (I think) a Nitch where there are no commercial operations for 20 or so miles in any direction. I have a lot of local family connections and am always asking if anyone sees coming or going any hives. Unless they move in in the dead of night and are fairly well hidden, I would be aware, at this point there are no commercials here. I basically hive the swarm and wait till the next spring. the survivors will be split, I have 3 that have survived 2 winters at this point. I hope to split from them and catch a couple more. The 6 packages I obtained last year and 1 swarm I caught are all dead out at this time. So it is an up hill slog. from the dead outs I get the drawn comb for bait hives and combs with stores for the splits. Also I had 4 supers each from the 6 packages for about 175 quarts of honey, last year, so they broke even. Had I shook them out in the snow and extracted it all I would have had another 100 quarts. There were 3 swarms spotted very early and very large last year, 10 + pounds, I am set up in those areas now with traps, (large ones) there was a couple local keepers around here 20 years ago that have retired and gone out of business. I know some swarms are poorly expanded packages. But the large early ones have to be local over wintered bees.
fingers crossed.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> GregV--I understand your information..


GG, you meant - BigBlackBirds.


----------



## Gray Goose

this was what I was referring to:

( Gray Goose---you do realize that a HUGE % of the bees in this state end up in your general locale for the summer? The vast majority of commercial operations chase the thistle crop from north of mid state up to the bridge.)


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## BigBlackBirds

Gray Goose said:


> GregV--I understand your information. I have searched for and located (I think) a Nitch where there are no commercial operations for 20 or so miles in any direction. I have a lot of local family connections and am always asking if anyone sees coming or going any hives. Unless they move in in the dead of night and are fairly well hidden, I would be aware, at this point there are no commercials here. I basically hive the swarm and wait till the next spring. the survivors will be split, I have 3 that have survived 2 winters at this point. I hope to split from them and catch a couple more. The 6 packages I obtained last year and 1 swarm I caught are all dead out at this time. So it is an up hill slog. from the dead outs I get the drawn comb for bait hives and combs with stores for the splits. Also I had 4 supers each from the 6 packages for about 175 quarts of honey, last year, so they broke even. Had I shook them out in the snow and extracted it all I would have had another 100 quarts. There were 3 swarms spotted very early and very large last year, 10 + pounds, I am set up in those areas now with traps, (large ones) there was a couple local keepers around here 20 years ago that have retired and gone out of business. I know some swarms are poorly expanded packages. But the large early ones have to be local over wintered bees.
> fingers crossed.


The early swarms are more likely to be local I'd say. At least up until a few years ago you would have normally been safe and not seen any commercial swarms until very end of May or early June as virtually all the big outfits would have still been in blueberries and not moved out of pollination yet. However, that plan has been changing as 1) there's more bees than blueberry needs and 2) many guys are tired of the berry growers and arent concentrating on as much pollination. so there are way more commercial bees headed to northern summer honey locations much earlier than in years past; some are going right off the semis out of almonds, etc as early as april. just keep that in mind as you are looking for swarms, mating queens etc. 

if you really want to know what is around, one way is to fly over in the summer. you could be surprised. and more and more have been headed up that way every year so even if you are in a free zone now it may not stay that way depending on what the honey crop keeps doing up there. the upside for you is that the crop been pretty hit and miss from what i know so that may slow the influx of colonies

if you have a dead zone so to speak, you may be wise to bring in some specific genetics to use for crossing with what you already have


----------



## msl

GregV said:


> To be sure, I don't want ALL of my bees die, 50% survival would be fine with me and a good place to restart the next season.
> Just letting the nature (including the mites) do the culling for me.
> Hopefully, by Thanksgiving I get a few drop-offs - good riddance and some holiday crop for us.


Sorry for your losses, but all seems like its going according to plan, just no honey out of the deal 

some thoughts
looking at your weather, it looks like there have been days for cleansing flights if your hives are in the sun, especially if you had a black wrap to create a micro climate. I wonder if your practice of shoveling them in is preventing it. I often see a quick burst of bees that only get a foot or two away from the hive and then go back in on nice winter days

The dysentery problem may be feed related, not genetic. There are many fall flows that people advice against the bees wintering on.


> Setting out the bees from storage.
> March 31.
> 6 months of no flight.
> Now, these are some real AMM bees. No other bee can handle this.


"Storage" keeps the bees closer to the minim metabolic rate, they consume less honey, so they build up less fecal mater. As for "No other bee can handle this", that's silly! 
The shed wintering experience of many Canadian and other northern beekeepers says other wise


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> Sorry for your losses, but all seems like its going according to plan, just no honey out of the deal
> ...


Hey, long time no see!

So, I got a response to every thought you provided - when I get to it.

Overall, I did not care much of the losses as insignificant and good riddance as per the plan, until I lost this "mother-queen".
This one is not easily replaceable.
Had lots of plans for this summer to propagate from this queen with variety of good drones being arranged to flood the area.
She would have provided good input material - but no cigar.
So this one is only a true loss so far.
But, it is OK. How the game goes.


----------



## lharder

How many times have I guessed wrong about bee quality? Lots. It will eventually show itself.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> #1 ......looking at your weather, it looks like there have been days for cleansing flights if your hives are in the sun, especially if you had a black wrap to create a micro climate. I wonder if your practice of shoveling them in is preventing it.
> 
> #2........The dysentery problem may be feed related, not genetic. There are many fall flows that people advice against the bees wintering on.
> 
> #3.........."Storage" keeps the bees closer to the minim metabolic rate, they consume less honey, so they build up less fecal mater. As for "No other bee can handle this", that's silly!
> The shed wintering experience of many Canadian and other northern beekeepers says other wise


#1. 
I know of three hives from my collections that did fly out in early November - being in direct sun.
The mother-queen did not care to fly out, but nothing prevented it - they are in my backyard.
Pretty much I did go around to check for open entrances where it was needed (for sure adding upper entrances too in the future - to cut down the hassle).

I don't really want bees to be flying at every chance they get anyway - a poor trait as for me.
I don't practice any wrapping as unnecessary.








#2.
This is always a possibility. 
I don't feed (outside of emergency or nucs) and don't control what honey goes into the winter.
As I did not take any away.
There could be some honeydew honey; if so - it is what it is.

However, they had plenty of chances over the 4 months to develop dysentery for any old reason (not the first week of March all of a sudden and in precipitous fashion).
Virtually few days prior they looked very good as I added dry sugar, just in case (it was needed I can now tell).
All of a sudden - lots of brutal runny poop all over and a rapid cluster collapse.















#3.
Industrial-type sheds with controlled temp and humidity?
Yes, the proper refrigeration-type shed gets the job done for most any average bee.
Not even admissible.
This is for "wimps".
Besides, I don't have such a thing anyway; bees stay outside and do best they can.

Try wintering in a tree, 20-30 feet up, in USDA zone 3, 6 months straight - this is the real AMMs we are talking about.
Kind of like his bee tree in Bashkortostan:








In any case, I conclude the pictured dead unit just reached their natural limit under the conditions, with just 1-2 weeks to go.
They basically exploded no longer being to hold the poop after 4 months of not flying.
Too bad, tomorrow they could be out flying.

So, yes, I agree with Juhani somewhat:


> As I suspected earlier your bees are not suitable for long winters.


But only somewhat. 
This is not over yet.


----------



## msl

> Industrial-type sheds with controlled temp and humidity?
> Yes, the proper sheds get the job done for most any average bee.


thinking more about the dirt floor cellars of old, more comparability to the video you posted 



> they had plenty of chances over the 4 months to develop dysentery for any old reason (not the first week of March all of a sudden and in precipitous fashion)


In the case of indigestible solids its a build up issue, not the honey making them "sick". No problem for a normal human to sit threw a movie with out getting up, not so easy if you put back a few beers. Your not sick, just need to pee



> Kind of like his bee tree in Bashkortostan


but we weren't talking trees we were talking shed wintering.


> In any case, I conclude the pictured dead unit just reached their natural limit under the conditions


I am suggesting the possibility of changing the conditions to more natural ones 
In terms of micro climate, I would argue a black wrap on a hive is closer to the dark bark on a tree then an white box, much less one shoved in. Large old growth trees with out leaves in winter means more or less full sun on a dark barked tree


> I don't really want bees to be flying at every chance they get anyway - a poor trait as for me


It not a trait I am talking about as much as the conditions set up by your management. If the bees are capable of of making a cleansing flight, why would you wish them not to? Why go against a trait the leads to improved survival?


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## lharder

I decided to insulate hives. Bee boxes, even thick ones like mine are a poor substitute for bee trees. The results are encouraging. I figure the bees are under enough stress already dealing with mites and viruses and I want to ease up on them in other areas. I might go for more winter hardiness after (if) the mite hardiness settles into place. Even then reduced food requirements (and less poop produced), better spring build up makes it profitable to insulate.


----------



## BigBlackBirds

GregV said:


> #1.
> I know of three hives from my collections that did fly out in early November - being in direct sun.
> The mother-queen did not care to fly out, but nothing prevented it - they are in my backyard.
> Pretty much I did go around to check for open entrances where it was needed (for sure adding upper entrances too in the future - to cut down the hassle).
> 
> I don't really want bees to be flying at every chance they get anyway - a poor trait as for me.
> I don't practice any wrapping as unnecessary.
> View attachment 46653
> 
> 
> #2.
> This is always a possibility.
> I don't feed (outside of emergency or nucs) and don't control what honey goes into the winter.
> As I did not take any away.
> There could be some honeydew honey; if so - it is what it is.
> 
> However, they had plenty of chances over the 4 months to develop dysentery for any old reason (not the first week of March all of a sudden and in precipitous fashion).
> Virtually few days prior they looked very good as I added dry sugar, just in case (it was needed I can now tell).
> All of a sudden - lots of brutal runny poop all over and a rapid cluster collapse.
> View attachment 46655
> 
> View attachment 46657
> 
> 
> #3.
> Industrial-type sheds with controlled temp and humidity?
> Yes, the proper refrigeration-type shed gets the job done for most any average bee.
> Not even admissible.
> This is for "wimps".
> Besides, I don't have such a thing anyway; bees stay outside and do best they can.
> 
> Try wintering in a tree, 20-30 feet up, in USDA zone 3, 6 months straight - this is the real AMMs we are talking about.
> Kind of like his bee tree in Bashkortostan:
> View attachment 46659
> 
> 
> In any case, I conclude the pictured dead unit just reached their natural limit under the conditions, with just 1-2 weeks to go.
> They basically exploded no longer being to hold the poop after 4 months of not flying.
> Too bad, tomorrow they could be out flying.
> 
> So, yes, I agree with Juhani somewhat:
> 
> But only somewhat.
> This is not over yet.



GregV--I wouldnt think you should have that much problem finding a bee to successfully overwinter in Wisconsin. I'm probably just a touch north of you in Michigan. The issue we've always struggled with (even prior to both tracheal and varroa) is keeping enough of northern type traits when mating. That was only compounded with arrival of both mites and the increase in migration that resulted. There's no shortage of migratory bees in this state but I think Wisconsin has plenty too. Finding right stock to winter and that can tolerate mites really is no longer that tough. The real hard work happened 2+ decades ago when the first survivor stocks were accumulated for USDA. And since the vast majority of that stock traces its roots to Michigan its all was pretty winter hardy at one point. The hard part is keeping the right balance of traits when open mating particularly for folks with small colony counts in areas where they cant control the drone concentration


----------



## GregB

Discussions aside, I had few hour window of sun and +15C to do a head count.
The window closed by now (back to cold rain).

One more failure of the "pooped-out" kind - exact same picture I reported above.
A case of good riddance due to the winter hardiness issues.
Fortunately, this "pooper" still has two dark sisters left to carry on the mission and the game still goes on.

So, down to *five *and these should be my starters for the 2019 season.
Everyone still alive had their chances to fly out today and take care of any urgent business.

One survivor of yellow-ish TF line - I completely re-hived them - they also pooped all over and lost lots of bee - but yet did hold the cluster around the queen and managed to stay alive.
Two survivors of dark TF line - one looks perfect and strong; the other lost lots of bee but still gave me few good stings for being nosy (always a good sign of fighting spirits).
That strange swarm I complained about in fall - these dark dogs look very strong and keep tunneling the sugar pile; so must be OK material to keep around and see what they can do.
Another random swarm of dark exterior bee are also fine.

Everyone should have plenty of supplies to do their spring job.
I get to harvest some perga from the dead.


----------



## GregB

Here is a run-down of what actually happened over the 2018/2019 winter.
Looking at the outcomes per unit.
All frames I list below - of Dadant size (large).

#1 - Alive - random late-July swarm. Was a big one too.
Wintered fine on 10 frames, no matter how much I bad-mouthed these "idiots".
These grayish bees are on the irritable side and require smoke. 
I guess I will need to find/mark the queen and we will keep working together.








#2 - Dead - my biggest true loss - the 2-year old queen of my TF line #1.
Broke the cluster, pooped all over, and froze all over the hive without a cluster, with only a week to go before they could fly.
I had lots of plan for this units. 
They were sitting on 8 frames.
Yellowish mutt bees from Arkansas.
These bees I did not see coming out once since November (part of the problem - my lower entrance only design - the upper entrances may have lured them out a couple of time and that would be beneficial).
So the 4 months of no flight did them in (a milder winter would be just fine; upper entrances availability may have given them a better chance - this loss is partially on me, I feel.).
The large, gray hive to the left.








#3 - Alive - July daughter of the #2 .
Interestingly - also pooped all over even before the #2 did - yet survived somehow, after loosing 50% of the cluster.
On a milder side too. Yellowish bee.
I suppose this is a good enough material to split/propagate this summer.
The same pic as above - but blue/white hive to the right.

#4 - Alive - July queen off my other TF line #2. 
Survived very well on 7 frames.
Defensive grayish bee require much smoke to work.
I would call these bees mean.
I definitely have plans for these.








#5 - Dead - a June TF queen from a friend.
Really mild bees; yellowish.
Wintered on 6 frames in a temp hive.
Came out flying every chance they got.
Looked very good and strong until the February 2019 vortex freeze came.
60% of the cluster just froze in place; the remaining 40% dropped within 3-4 weeks.
This loss I blame on myself - needed to move them away from the entrance.








#6 - Alive - a random June swarm (these subsequently swarmed on me too - while away on vacation).
Wintered fine on 6 frames.
Some commercial bee off-shoot, grayish carni something.
The hive on the left








#7 - Dead - a random August swarm.
Were doing OK on 5 frames until in February.
I take responsibility for this one - something went wrong with the setup and moisture was the real killer.
It was so moist that even dry sugar on the top never caked into a hard chunk (in as it should normally).
I had to just rehive them mid-winter as there were opportunities.
So, shame on me.
The same picture as above, but the hive on the right.


----------



## GregB

#8 - Dead - a July queen of the TF (same line as #4).
This one is a real loss as I had plans for these.
The same issue as in #2 - needed to hold the poop one more week - they could not, broke the cluster, pooped all over, froze.
Also, an upper entrance availability might have improved the chances for these.
There were 2-3 opportunities where the bottom entrance only was the obstacle - too cold to come out.








#9 - Dead a July queen of the TF line #2 (same line as #4).
The queen did not mate well, I feel.
These started pooping and dropping off as early as December.
A good riddance I feel.








#10 - Alive - a July queen of the TF(same line as #4).
Lost a lot of bee, maybe partially due to sitting in a temp, plywood hive.
Started on 7 frames, but now reduced to just 3 frames.
Grayish, nervous bee that will require smoke to work.
Good enough material for July splitting if/when they build back up.








#11 - Dead - a random August Italian swarm.
Just a worthless commercial bee, full of mites too (as it turned out).
Should have let them collect honey and take it all way and let them drop.
Used them as a resource for splits - was a mistake.
Waste of time, outside of hive testing.
Should send swarms through the winter quarantine before using for anything.








#12 - Dead - a very late mated, September queen (daughter of #2 above).
I did try to carry these one through to hold onto the genetics.
Unfortunately, the tiny cluster froze in place in January after eating all the honey around (should have had dry sugar on them from the very start).
Even used a heater; and put them into the middle of the "wintering hive" - still the harsh winter 2019 killed these - could have survived a mild winter though.
Not much to cry over. Experimentation loss.
Middle of the big brown hive.








#13 - Dead - a late mated Russian queen added to a split taken from the Italian swarm #11.
Mites killed them - frass all over - the queen was not able to turn things around - probably winter would have killed them anyway.
I should have made a split from one of the better units - to have any chances.
One side of the big brown hive above.
Experimentation loss.

#14 - Dead - the same as #13.


----------



## GregB

So out of 9 lost units, only 3 units truly lost as they were of value to me.

The other 6 losses - whatever - few lessons learned.
Some lessons:
* must quarantine the swarms before using them for any splits/brood (I did better this year; last year I caused lots of losses to myself by over-using the swarms for brood - bad mistake)
* don't get lazy setting up the hives for the winter (don't expect the winter to be mild - no matter the precedence)
* mite-hardy bees are not the same as winter-hardy bees (just a possibility of the both traits being there)

Overall - out of 9 lost units, only *three *units showed clear mite-related issues (#11, #13, #14).
The *six * other units lost units were due to combinations of many factors (poor beekeeping/equipment, hard winter/low winter-hardiness of the bee, late/weak nucs).
So, really, I am not blaming mites that much at all for my losses.

Only ~33% (3 of 9) of the 2019 winter loss in my case I would account for mite-related issues clear-cut.
The remainder of the loss (~66%) is really a multi-factor loss.
Mite could also be in the mix - but not a clear cut.
Some cases are clearly not mite related at all (#2, #5, #7, #8).

Depending on the stock on hand/management practices, this entire mite-issue maybe overblown to a degree.
The significant part of the loss is really are more basic issues (beekeeper, equipment, weather, poor winter-hardiness, anything else).
I will give it a generous 50/50 for mite/no mite loss causation.
OK, the game goes on.

PS: according to the latest local chatter, even more "Russian" packages are coming to the area this spring; 
this is great - I will be chasing these "Russians" and see what comes along;
I may even save a couple of un-needed "Russian" queens from the locals (almost expect questions soon about what to do with their "mean" bees);
once they realize they got some "mean" bees and working them in shorts/T-shirt is no longer possible, some people are going to scream, hehehe ...


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Some lessons:
> * must quarantine the swarms before using them for any splits/brood (I did better this year; last year I caused lots of losses to myself by over-using the swarms for brood - bad mistake)
> * don't get lazy setting up the hives for the winter (don't expect the winter to be mild - no matter the precedence)
> * mite-hardy bees are not the same as winter-hardy bees (just a possibility of the both traits being there)


Good report, GregV. I appreciated reading your status update and conclusions you drew from the overwintering success/failure.

Your idea of 'quarantining' swarms seems prudent to me both from the disease perspective and also as a way of evaluating suitability for propagation.

Based on your moisture/cleansing issues, do you expect upper entrances will be the standard set-up for you going forward?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Good report, GregV. I appreciated reading your status update and conclusions you drew from the overwintering success/failure.
> 
> Your idea of 'quarantining' swarms seems prudent to me both from the disease perspective and also as a way of evaluating suitability for propagation.
> 
> Based on your moisture/cleansing issues, do you expect upper entrances will be the standard set-up for you going forward?


Russ, I think indeed I will now be keeping mixed upper/lower entrances.
For sure for my USDA Zone 4/5 case, during the cold season, availability of auxiliary upper entrance may make or break the game.
There were border-line days when upper exit available could mean bees able to get out to poop.
I feel bad to loose two valuable units this way.
At least one of these (#2 above) being in a sunny location could have flown out on a couple of occasions (they did not).
On those borderline days difference between bottom/upper entrance is significant (bottom entrance is too cold; the upper entrance is warm enough).

#7 dead out had a good entrance configuration.
Bees in this exact hive wintered fine last year.
Given, there was actually ice on the bottom of the hive, I suspect there was some leak into the hive when melting snow/rain could be tricking inside.
Really, should not be wintering bees in temp summer hives (basically swarm traps) but I had no better hives in fall (and got too lazy in winter when free boxes came up - these dead bees are on me).


----------



## nickhefferan

GregV said:


> Some lessons:
> * must quarantine the swarms before using them for any splits/brood (I did better this year; last year I caused lots of losses to myself by over-using the swarms for brood - bad mistake)
> * don't get lazy setting up the hives for the winter (don't expect the winter to be mild - no matter the precedence)
> * mite-hardy bees are not the same as winter-hardy bees (just a possibility of the both traits being there)


Great report Greg! Love the details, images, and analysis. Looking forward to following the survivors progress throughout the year.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> ... these dead bees are on me).


GregV: Thank you for your reply. I can certainly identify with this sentiment. With all the various factors that one can employ in their management, it seems that the first and most foundational precept is to, ''do no harm". I am still learning how to follow this, before even considering how to provide beneficial husbandry. That is why I enjoy and appreciate everyone being willing to post what works (and what doesn't) as a means for us all to benefit from the experience gained.

Thanks again for the updates, and best of success to you this year.

Russ


----------



## GregB

nickhefferan said:


> Great report Greg! Love the details, images, and analysis. Looking forward to following the survivors progress throughout the year.


Sure thing.
This TF/local adaptation/swarm chasing project is fun as for me.

PS: 
in the end, I got to harvest few pounds of honey off the recent dead-outs; 
kids/wife are happy again, since we were out;


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV: Thank you for your reply.........Russ


Sure thing, Russ.

We all could use some fresh swarms.
I hope you catch few good ferals!


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> We all could use some fresh swarms.
> I hope you catch few good ferals!


Thanks, GregV. I hope so too- it has turned cold here again so things have slowed down. Thankfully we dodged a bullet last night with lows near 28 degrees F with most stone fruit in full bloom and a lot of pomes beginning to bloom in earnest. No swarms for me in March, though judging the bloom cues it appears we are generally a week to 10 days behind where we were last year. We'll see!


----------



## GregB

Down to 4.

These bees failed too as they could not come out the March/April critical population dive.
The winter bee is dropping off and they must produce the sufficient replacement in timely fashion OR collapse.



> #10 - Alive - a July queen of the TF(same line as #4).
> Lost a lot of bee, maybe partially due to sitting in a temp, plywood hive.
> Started on 7 frames, but now reduced to just 3 frames.


Again - winter-hardiness issue with the bees wearing out (a better insulated hive vs. plywood could have helped - maybe).
They were hammered so badly over the winter - ran out of life energy staying afloat - could not raise the replacement bees quickly enough and in time.
So the winter bees dropped off - all brood in progress perished without cover - no bees left to keep it warm.
Queen dropped off.

I don't see mite being an issue here either.
Most issues about winter-hardiness (and some beekeeping ways) this year in my program.


----------



## Gray Goose

Hi Greg , Bummer sorry for the late loss . Did they have feed left? I lost a big hive that should been fine, odd year.
GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Hi Greg , Bummer sorry for the late loss . Did they have feed left? I lost a big hive that should been fine, odd year.
> GG


Feed I supplemented with dry feed on top.
Also, there was plenty taken from the dead for the survivors.

Just winter bees ran out too early and spring bees did not come out in time.
Kind of like on this great picture from Randy Oliver (to be slightly adjusted for us - but close enough):








So yes, it feels as if I had pretty good mite-hardy stock this season.
But not good enough winter-hardy stuff - so took almost all my losses into spring.
March/April was the real hammer for me.
But I have enough stock on hand to rebuild from.
Will be chasing those swarms for sure, to get any honey this year!
Bah!


----------



## GregB

Status update:



> #1 - Alive - random late-July swarm.


A weak colony.
These guys lost a queen sometimes in late March/early April.
No idea how, as I did not really look inside much at all to pinch it until first week of April.
Found many emergency cells in early April when taking off dry sugar remnants and reviewing the status.
This resulted in an interesting experiment - super early abnormal mating attempt - which worked out to my surprise.

After talking to few local folks, decided to ride it out and just see if the virgin would mate out (very low chances in April here - basically still semi-winter).
The darn thing did mate somehow (was about one good week in late April and it was enough).
The drones most certainly imported with the packages, not local (less than ideal case).

The queen looks small and not laying in a nice pattern as for me, but maybe she is still too young and still growing and just getting started (or not really - TBD).

In any case - if I get some honey out of these puppies this summer - they served their purpose.
I will not propagate this line by design (maybe will do cut-down split in late June, mostly for the honey production purposes).



> #3 - Alive - July daughter of the #2.


A weak colony due to heavy losses in March (almost pooped to death), but now healthy and building.
I am sure they will build-up very well to make July starts out of this line.
Will propagate by design in late June/early July due to presumed so far mite-hardiness (the lacking winter hardiness will hopefully mate in from the local drones).
Not the best choice, but a good choice for expansion.



> #4 - Alive - July queen off my other TF line #2.


Very strong at about 120 liters of volume packed by bees (this is late April in WI).
Good propagation material due to presumed mite-hardiness and winter-hardiness (both).

On May 5th I did the OTS-style split and took the queen away into a weak split just to defuse the swarming pressure (and maybe get some dandelion honey too).
So the queen-less unit should work now for honey production.

In late June/early July will create as many starts as I can from this #4 queen.
This will be my #1 bet on the expansion side.



> #6 - Alive - a random June swarm


A weak but healthy colony.
Should build up nicely for the mid-summer flow however and should make some honey.
May do a cut-down split targeting for July production.

Overall, 5 active units is plenty just about now.
Hopefully, there will be 3-4 swarms landing too.
There should be about 15 units of various traits and sizes going into the winter again (the goal) - plenty for a suburban peasant.
Some honey would be good this summer; I will work towards that this season (did not last season).


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Status update:


Enjoyed reading your update, GregV. I am impressed that you have a full year goal and specific matrices to assess against.

Best of success to you in your propagation and swarm trapping efforts.


----------



## GregB

Well, well...
All the while I have been planting my vegetables, my own bees are ready to split on me.
I was meaning to install honey super onto this puppies as the July flow is almost here.
What do I see?
They are set and ready to take off.

Well, the darn queen is nowhere to be found (not laying either - ready to fly off).
Entire hive is in swarming mood. 
Foundantion-less blanks are still that - blanks (no work is done).
Forget the honey supers now.
Swarm interception project on hands instead.

Moved all frames (lots of QCs) into a couple of stand-by nucs (checked really well for the queen to not be there - well, I missed the queens before many times; need to go back and check again tomorrow).
Dumped all the bees in front of the hives and left them there for the night (rainy night too).
Letting them sit outside tonight and think about their behavior.







Pretty sure rain will chaise them inside - the hive is empty - only blank top bars and a couple of frames with brood in the current honey super (she went up there too).
This is kind of a anti-swarming shock therapy some Euro people posted on Youtube - dump them all outside and take the frames away.
Will see if work for me.


----------



## JWPalmer

LOL Greg. Sounds like we need a new forum entitled "retaliatory beekeeping" or "getting back at the bees". Best of luck.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Dumped all the bees in front of the hives and left them there for the night (rainy night too).
> Letting them sit outside tonight and think about their behavior.


GregV- Thank you for the update. You are much more decisive than me- I would have been hesitant to attempt such a maneuver. I sincerely hope it works out for the best for you.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Checked this morning - the tarp was clean and most of the bees moved inside (save for a handful dead by rain - too stupid to go inside - too bad for them).
We did have a good shower over night.
Then more of the same today - good - rain keeps them in the hive.
There is still some confusion, but hopefully they are getting their lesson and the little brain are being wrapped around of what just happened.

Checked both stand-by nucs (3 frames each; several QCs) - no queen still.
Okay, I will have to assume she is with the "swarm" and getting schooled too.
Will check them tomorrow night (if not rained out).

The criteria is supposed to be - IF they start building on the blanks - they decided they "have swarmed" and are getting back to normal.
Time to load them up with the work (empty combs for honey and blanks for new combs).

I did not really have plans to split these particular bees off, in hopes of honey harvest from them.
The darn bugs had other plans.
Still hope for some harvest though.
At least these are my mildest bees and stupid easy to work them (IF they could only live another season - will see).

In the other news - finally did complete my round of 6 out yards.
All kinds of news - good and not so good: 
- terrible mice infestation and pee smell all over the log trap #2 - need to clean it now somehow - right in the middle of the swarming time (this is what I get for not checking the darn trap sooner AND making the entrance too big AND not screened)
- the only swarm caught so far this year turned out to be an unfriendly bunch and love to harass the beekeeper - working hard though and I have high hopes for some basswood honey and more later
- turned out I lost one swarm with a virgin after a swarm-prevention splitting (strange timings finally made sense; oh well, the mother is still with me and runs a very strong resource unit; the swarm must have been a smallish one - not a big loss)
- I found the virgin #2 in that drone-full mess the mother left behind - marked her - pat on a back for such heroics - she is a smaller red-head, but a productive youngster it looks - will see what is she up to
- setup another potential honey unit (around the red-head) - two older brunette sisters of her will be the support group for brood as needed
- still no more swarms landed (except for heavy scouting on the back porch again - still fruitless)
- was thinking to do a cut-down split in another unit (those winter crazies) - could not find the darn queen for the life of me - I never saw her yet since she somehow mated crazy early in April - she is a secretive one - after 3-4 frame back and forth, the bees lost patience with me and showed their real-self (look like Italians, behave more like pissed of Russians when out of patience) - when ahead and made up a 3 frame ad-hoc split right on the spot - no clue where the queen is, but I really want as much mating as possible to my drones in the area (I got lots of TF drones out and will be putting up even more).

Well, enough.



Maybe I will rant later.

Next week - the main splitting session of my main TF mothers - gonna be some fun.
Donno, if this works out well I may end up with more bees that I want to be handling again.


----------



## GregB

Meant to add:
- gosh, I have to say - working a single-tier long hive is so, so much more easy and ergo-friendly.
- when you do your rounds, tired, sweaty, and stung up some - working a long hive is just such a pleasure.

Seriously, I want more long hives.
Still need to try a compact Warre-type and get the feel of it.
Lifting/moving even a medium Lang 10-frame box with some honey in it and unfriendly bees - donno, not enjoyable - just asking for a hurt back and too much work.
And working them Langs by a frame - what a hassle.
Gotta be either a really large frame (and work by a frame) or a really small, ergo box (and just toss the boxes).


----------



## GregB

Another observation I wanted to post..
This is common knowledge how distinct races of bees cap their honey in distinct ways (Russans/Italians/Carni - white cappings; Caucasians - dark/wet capping).
Well, North Amercian mutt bees are mostly are product of a melting pot processes and it shows.

Yesterday pulled a frame so to treat the kids to some fresh honey.
What kind of bees capped this honey anyway?
I wish I knew what is mixed in.
I just have them whatever they are for as long as they are mite-hardy and winter-hardy enough.
This is how local bees are being shaped if left alone.
















Notice that "white" cappings on old combs still will be obviously "white" (technically - an indication of air bubble between the cap and the honey we are talking about; not the wax coloring).
One idea about white cappings is that they are better for wintering in hard climates (the frozen honey does not explode the cells due to the air cushion).
By this logic, wet capping means lower winter-hardiness indication - just a may be.
But then the Italians should have very high winter-hardiness - NOT.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Another observation I wanted to post..
> This is common knowledge how distinct races of bees cap their honey in distinct ways (Russans/Italians/Carni - white cappings; Caucasians - dark/wet capping).
> Well, North Amercian mutt bees are mostly are product of a melting pot processes and it shows.
> 
> Yesterday pulled a frame so to treat the kids to some fresh honey.
> What kind of bees capped this honey anyway?
> I wish I knew what is mixed in.
> I just have them whatever they are for as long as they are mite-hardy and winter-hardy enough.
> View attachment 49549
> 
> View attachment 49551
> 
> 
> Notice that white cappings on old combs still will be obviously white (technically - an indication of air bubble between the cap and the honey we are talking about; not the wax coloring).


Great post, GregV. FWIW, the capped frames in my yard look like a mix of wet-versus-dry like yours. While I do not have the depth of knowledge you have on this subject, it does make you wonder if different patrilines are being expressed in the way the stores are being capped?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Great post, GregV. FWIW, the capped frames in my yard look like a mix of wet-versus-dry like yours. While I do not have the depth of knowledge you have on this subject, it does make you wonder if different patrilines are being expressed in the way the stores are being capped?


Exactly, Lit!
One can see the mix of capping types on the same comb face.
Whilst the wet-type is predominant, but the dry-type is still present.
So yes - different lineages of the bees are present at once in the same unit - and it shows.

So now, I feel it is beneficial to have such a mix of the patri-lines - the variety of traits in the same units should make it more robust to a variety of conditions, be it a parasite or climate (I would think).
Far Eastern Russians technically also demonstrate mixed types of capping (of various degrees, but predominantly still dry-typ).
This is unlike the "pure" AMM or "pure" Carni - purely dry-types.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Exactly, Lit!
> One can see the mix of capping types on the same comb face.
> Whilst the wet-type is predominant, but the dry-type is still present.
> So yes - different lineages of the bees are present at once in the same unit - and it shows.
> 
> So now, I feel it is beneficial to have such a mix of the patri-lines - the variety of traits in the same units should make it more robust to a variety of conditions, be it a parasite or climate (I would think).
> Far Eastern Russians technically also demonstrate mixed types of capping (of various degrees, but predominantly still dry-typ).
> This is unlike the "pure" AMM or "pure" Carni - purely dry-types.


For what its worth, the 6 Sascratraz packages I hiveded last spring, the honey froze cracking the combs, and pooled in the bottom of the hive, like between a pint and a quart, I did not like it much, makes a mess. So they must have wet capped. Another reason the cappings can look different is the different ages of the honey. Optically the white capped looks the nicest.


----------



## gww

I also think that new comb is capped different then old brood comb is by the same type of bees.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> For what its worth, the 6 Sascratraz packages I hived last spring, the honey froze cracking the combs, and pooled in the bottom of the hive, like between a pint and a quart, I did not like it much, makes a mess. So they must have wet capped. Another reason the cappings can look different is the different ages of the honey. Optically the white capped looks the nicest.


This I had not considered- is it safe to say that bee subgroups from more northern climates are more disposed to dry cappings?


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> So now, I feel it is beneficial to have such a mix of the patri-lines - the variety of traits in the same units should make it more robust to a variety of conditions, be it a parasite or climate (I would think).


This makes sense to me. It also begs the question- assuming that the capping is dictated in some regard based on the patriline, does it also follow that bees engaged in capping work in peer groups aligned by genetic background?


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> I also think that new comb is capped different then old brood comb is by the same type of bees.
> Cheers
> gww


Good point, GWW. So to clarify, would you suggest that new comb would be more likely dry capped and old brood comb more likely wet capped?


----------



## GregB

gww said:


> I also think that new comb is capped different then old brood comb is by the same type of bees.
> Cheers
> gww


Unsure this is true.
Pretty much any cappings (brood or honey) on old brood combs will be darker (some dirt/some recycled old wax).
Especially it shows on the brood caps.

This has more to do with the wax coloring itself, but not the air bubble presence/absence.

So as I noted above - we are talking of air bubble presence/absence under the cap (as opposed to the wax coloring).

Thinking ahead, I will try to document these between the different bee lines that I have now.
I only have one mostly Carni out-yard; last year they produced predominantly dry-type; it was very obvious.
All other lines I have - produce various mixes of capping types (but the wet-type is always significant; I now wonder if this really an indicator to a degree of low winter hardiness).
When I landed commercial Italians before - pure dry type honey cap. 
Very pretty honey. 
Too bad - these bees are usually not hardy in any respect.


----------



## GregB

Went back last night - they stubbornly hang inside the hive and do nothing.
Fine.
Very nice looking and big "swarm" just hanging inside the hive.
The rain chased them all inside now.















They got themselves a very good and sheltered perch, to be sure.
Another rainy day and cold night passed - very good - it keeps them inside and they are getting hungry.

Eventually, they will have to start working and collecting some food OR starve them-stupid-selves.
Today is finally a sunny day and I hope they turn around.
Will check in a couple of days again.


----------



## gww

Greg
All i know is that I pulled up some bottom comb and have some comb being drawn and I have both wet cappings and dry cappings in the same hive.

No promise cause I get lazy but I have not extracted yet and when I do, I will try and get a few pictures. Extracting is hard work and I may get distracted by that though.
Cheers
gww


----------



## GregB

gww said:


> Greg
> .........I will try and get a few pictures. .......
> gww


Please do take pictures.

I feel this is another area under-studied - the honey capping patterns by the hybrid bees (just like natural cell sizing and dynamics within the combs).
I don't see anyone talking of it.
And yet the capped honey tells a story to be read.

Really, I don't see people studying the natural comb much at all.
Natural comb in a bee tree - to be exact (simulated bee tree is OK since the naturals are hard to come by)..
Top to the bottom.
The comb has a story to tell.


----------



## gww

greg
Comb has a story to tell and I let the bees make their own. I do move it all around to motivate them to keep it like I like to see it and for selfish purposes. So I personally jumbo any story they might be telling me. I just cut out two frames with about 1/4 drawn but cross frame in a hive that all other frames are strait. It could be telling me there is a draft there or they know how much more they are going to be able to draw and that was best placement. I see them draw fat rather then start new. Being selfish, I mess with it all till it works for me.

It would be interesting to let them do what they want and I have seen some wonderful pictures of tipped up warre boxes. I do believe the bees probably have good reason for what they do that I come along and mess up.

I really like foundationless bee keeping but have never tried anything else that I could compare it to. 
I am not a person that studies with purpose but do enjoy looking and thinking about what I do see in the hive.
Cheers
gww


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Here is a run-down of what actually happened over the 2018/2019 winter.
> Looking at the outcomes per unit.
> All frames I list below - of Dadant size (large).
> 
> #2 - Dead - my biggest true loss - the 2-year old queen of my TF line #1.
> .............................
> The large, gray hive to the left.
> View attachment 47179
> 
> 
> #3 - Alive - July daughter of the #2 .
> Interestingly - also pooped all over even before the #2 did - yet survived somehow, after loosing 50% of the cluster.
> On a milder side too. Yellowish bee.
> I suppose this is a good enough material to split/propagate this summer.
> The same pic as above - but blue/white hive to the right.
> .


All right, yesterday managed to pull-off a pretty good fly-back project in #3 (see above).
Very timely as they filled the hive wall-to-wall and started showing sings of swarm preparations.

Pulled out 15 frames of brood, bees, stores - made a large queen-less unit to make raise few QCs for me.
Queen-less - hive on the left.








After we come back from our July 4th camping, I expect to find enough QCs to try mating 3-4 new July queens.
Have another similar split to do (ideally today, but a severe T-Storm is outside the window for most of the day).

Other interesting asides...

I had to have plenty of blanks to replace the combs that I stole.
Well, very short on time and just cannot make a batch of nice, wooden frames that I really want.
Here are few plastic cut-outs prepped on the spot:








Here are few open frames that were laying around as emergency plug-ins (out of these too now; need to urgently rip few top bars for another pending fly-back).
Notice how I just staple in any stick from the ground as a comb-staring strip - works great.
Again, people are agonizing too much how to do this - but, this is really stupid simple - staple-in any sort-of straight stick - done.















Here is a nice open-frame comb, one of many in rotation.
These really work great in the brood-nest (I just ignore what folks keep saying as if these are impossible - very much possible).
Bees are really loving them and queens fills them top-to-bottom/side-to-side - so these are really for the bees, not me.
To watch for - these are best for brood, NOT honey (due to the weigh limitations); so to be kept in the brood area.
What I don't like:
- you can not efficiently shake the bees OFF from this monster (only a gently brush possibly); 
- you can not just stand this comb anywhere as it MUST hang vertically at all times (no flipping around either)
But - bees are loving these and so it goes.
Here it is a good sample:


----------



## GregB

Just a fun picture.
I cut out few chunks of honey combs.
Bees rebuilt the cut-outs with mostly drone.
Inserted this for the robbed fly-back queen - so she lays more drone for me.


----------



## Litsinger

Great photos, GregV.

I enjoyed reading your post, and the pictures really helped tell the story. Good stuff.

Here's hoping the queenless unit makes several good QC's for you and you have plenty of possibilities waiting for you when you get back from vacation.

Also, congratulations on the second swarm catch- looks like your mini-yard idea yielded a tangible benefit for you.

Enjoy your vacation, and Happy Independence Day to you and your family.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Great photos, GregV.
> 
> I enjoyed reading your post, and the pictures really helped tell the story. Good stuff.
> 
> Here's hoping the queenless unit makes several good QC's for you and you have plenty of possibilities waiting for you when you get back from vacation.
> 
> Also, congratulations on the second swarm catch- looks like your mini-yard idea yielded a tangible benefit for you.
> 
> Enjoy your vacation, and Happy Independence Day to you and your family.
> 
> Russ


Thanks, Russ!
I really have to say this - you are a great example how people should communicate and treat each other consistently.
Someone to learn from (am a permanent learner in this department).
Cheers and a Happy Holiday to you!
G.


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



msl said:


> taking on more then you can handle is no excuse for livestock abuse
> 
> 
> 
> now I am lost... those weaklings are the ones that need to go, just like the skep keeper of old. shake them out, take what they got, move on... they are going to (likly) be useless dinks come spring.
> 
> As an unit, an apiary dies with out human interference.
> 
> You don't get working dogs by catching a bunch of random dogs on the street, and penning them up in your yard and seeing what happens. You don't breed working dogs by letting a ***** in heat roam free in the neighborhood... sure you may get lucky, but the odds are not in your favor


MSL Just offering my 2Cents as well. as a discussion, not a argument. livestock abuse is not a reasonable description for "A swarm caught and left alone" doing nothing the swarm finds a "cavity" and is left alone, or dies on the limb. Giving them a Hive and leaving them alone is not livestock abuse. As they water and feed themselves, not sure what you are driving at, If you mean not applying drugs for the Mites as abuse I would tend to disagree.

The working dogs,, again is not an Apples to Apples comparison. As "normally" queens fly several Miles, "Sealey has confirmed well mated queens at 15 miles from the drone source" the queen is going to "Rome around until mated" and need 18 or so males, not sure a dog needs the same. Very few of us can "control the DCA" so some randomness is going to happen, allowing the survivors to survive, is somewhat what is happening in the Woods. Some crosses just do not make it, cows , horses, cats and dogs, are all in the same boat.

We all have the way we would do the keeping. I am somewhat in the same boat as JohnO, Stay with in the law and try not to harm others. I know of folks in the north that shake the bees out on the snow and take all the honey, so to some that would be abuse , to some a waste, to some the way...it has always been done. 

GregV you some what tossed an issue out and Some may think "things" about your keeping style. I presume you have a think skin and a sense of humor or you would have done it different. I have a similar "gene pool" in My area. I have added 4-6 queens a year to my Apairy. Allowing them to swarm off in the second year., allowing lots of drone comb. In 5 years I do see an impact. I also "help" newbie keepers out with these queens, so now there are several swarms and queens out in the area that "ARE" the kind I like. If the genes keep improving, the swarms in my area should settle into a surviving mode. So It seems in time the DCA can be shifted.
GG


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Gray Goose said:


> ......... If the genes keep improving, the swarms in my area should settle into a surviving mode. So It seems in time the DCA can be shifted.
> GG


Thanks GG for the input.

Indeed, I do believe that it is possible to alter the local population IF acting "counter-intuitively" for the most folks.
What idiot in their right mind will propagate drones? 
Well I am such an idiot right here and am fine with it.
Them drones will eat all my honey and all my bees will die off the mites, I guess (or how the theory goes).
Haha! Whatever..
Need to think a bigger picture, not just minute gains or minute losses.


Whatever is commonly taught - it is just so skewed way way towards industrial large beekeeping/honey pumping - people lost the prospective I feel 
(.....people truly believe the cells are perfect hexagons, for bug's sake.... I don't know what to say after that..).

Trying to keep the bees like it was done 100-200 years ago (I try doing this in many ways) - makes you to (re)learn for yourself what the real situation is.
Just avoiding foundation alone (especially the plastic foundation) - shows how many teachings are really not relevant or incorrect or outright harmful.

Large concentrated bee populations is another fall... 
Very, very efficient for honey pumping/queen & bee selling (as if we need more of these).
Very, very fragile to lots of catastrophic failures and thus require industrial management methods (see cattle feed lots, to compare).

Anyone should try running a hive or two in some natural way - just to observe and discover things for themselves.
It is OK if you don't harvest honey from them OR they, you know, die.


----------



## msl

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



> MSL Just offering my 2Cents as well. as a discussion, not a argument


:applause:



> Giving them a Hive and leaving them alone is not livestock abuse


I would argue that letting your stock die and spread pathogens by withholding medical treatment that costs just a few pennies, is abuse. To each there own, likely depends on your view of bees being wild or livestock. Ie, if I put up a bird box, am I responsible for the health of the birds that move in? Probably not...but if I keep chickens (in a bigger "box")... well I have to care for them.... some were in between there is a line 




> I am somewhat in the same boat as JohnO, Stay with in the law and try not to harm others


. 
Mite/efb/afb bombs harm others.. I find it funny to bring JohnO into the conversation, he is the other side of the spectrum crossing over to pesticide abuse, going far outside of what the law allows

I should pause for a moment, as it may not be apparent by my posts, I really do like JohnO and Greg. They are intelligent and motivated beekeepers willing to share their experances and I have learned from both of them (usually in the form of a spirited debate ), I Just don't agree with there management philosophies and theories


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



msl said:


> :applause:
> 
> 
> I would argue that letting your stock die and spread pathogens by withholding medical treatment that costs just a few pennies, is abuse. To each there own, likely depends on your view of bees being wild or livestock. Ie, if I put up a bird box, am I responsible for the health of the birds that move in? Probably not...but if I keep chickens (in a bigger "box")... well I have to care for them.... some were in between there is a line
> 
> 
> .
> Mite/efb/afb bombs harm others.. I find it funny to bring JohnO into the conversation, he is the other side of the spectrum crossing over to pesticide abuse, going far outside of what the law allows
> 
> I should pause for a moment, as it may not be apparent by my posts, I really do like JohnO and Greg. They are intelligent and motivated beekeepers willing to share their experiences and I have learned from both of them (usually in the form of a spirited debate ), I Just don't agree with there management philosophies and theories


I may not agree with their management style or philosophies as well. I do think/agree the choice is theirs to pick. And I am with you on the experiences, I can learn vicariously, by the sharing of others. I have got a lot out of the forum and try to offer as well. We are likely close in the way we manage our bees.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

It's all cool, guys - GG/MSL.

Will see how the season develops in terms of sustainability build-up and such.
As usually, I am (overly?) optimistic.
Must be the coffee.

PS: 
was gonna say - the swarm #1 this year (after they settled and all) started showing behavior all too familiar to me - those beekeeper-harassing bees - the captured queen must have mated with few of my drones last year...
I am fine with them buggers - they got a decent hive now and enough honey supers on the top - no need to even go see them anymore (well, maybe will check if I can steal some basswood honey in a couple of weeks).


----------



## gww

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



> Greg
> All i know is that I pulled up some bottom comb and have some comb being drawn and I have both wet cappings and dry cappings in the same hive.
> 
> No promise cause I get lazy but I have not extracted yet and when I do, I will try and get a few pictures. Extracting is hard work and I may get distracted by that though.
> Cheers


I extracted today and must have been dreaming on what I thought I saw cause all my caps were wet cap. I did hit my weak spot and get too lazy to take pictures (which would have been of nothing cause I was wrong). Extracting is hard and I am letting the bees clean everything and so still not done but am wore out like crazy. 
Cheers
gww


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Thanks, Russ!
> I really have to say this - you are a great example how people should communicate and treat each other consistently.
> Someone to learn from (am a permanent learner in this department).
> Cheers and a Happy Holiday to you!
> G.


GregV:

Thank you for your kind words- I really appreciate that. Just trying to live out the Golden Rule, but like everybody I am less than perfectly consistent at it.

I've really appreciated the wisdom I've gleaned from you and others on this forum. I've found that even if I'm not approaching things the exact same way as others (like other posts from today), I can learn a lot from you all and consider how various approaches, techniques and philosophies about beekeeping can inform my own.

Keep up the good work, and watch those digits if you're lighting off fireworks this week- you'll need most of them to make those nucs next week. :lookout:


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## GregB

If/when have some time to kill over the holidays, I encourage those interested to get familiar with reindeer husbandry some.

This "bees = livestock" theme come often.
Reindeer are a good example of very minimally managed livestock to think and research about.

Well, are the reindeer even livestock by some western standards? 
Are the reindeer abused? 
I am sure they are abused like hell for some people - watch the videos below. 

Here are few points:
- people have been managing reindeer for *much longer* than people manage honey bees
- people do not feed or water or even *shelter *reindeer - now that is brutal (or is it?); people may direct the herds to better seasonal pastures sometimes (but usually the reindeer do the same just as well or better)
- people do not select out the reindeer much if at all (outside of castrating unwanted bulls - too many bulls are just unnecessary hassle - they are fighting and such - castrated bulls are used for transportation and such); 
I guess, one can say - people are selecting the best bulls and leaving them the balls - that is some rudimentary selection for you
- regional reindeer practices vary a lot - still, this is a very hands-down approach across the board 
- I have seen people patch up wounded deer after the wolf attacks (similar to saving bees from a fallen tree or destroyed barn)
- I have seen the herders treat some infectious disease (varies culture by culture - similar to T/TF beeks) 
- Okay, the wolves and bear do get shot if mis-behave too much or too many of them around 
(but no one is talking of complete eradication of the wolves and bears in Siberia or Alaska - an impossible task)

Anyway, a good fodder.
To some it may appear as if reindeer husbandry is nothing but complete animal abuse.
The videos below show some really brutal stuff.
Well... that is some real animal husbandry for you.

Here is a good starter reading:
http://reindeerherding.org/herders/what-is-reindeer-husbandry/

Some video material about nenets people (some sub-titles are available):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANuwdO1CLsQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-YDuhXdHS4

Some material about komi people (there are graphic scenes about castration/antler removal at about 10:00 - be warned; could be more, I did not completely review).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7P9SmRvBCA


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## GregB

I forgot an important detail about the reindeer.

There are wild reindeer that co-exist along side the managed reindeer.
Often they intermix and cross-breed.
Wild bulls often come in and mate with the managed stock.
Managed stock sometimes leave and do not come back as it really does not matter (makes not much difference to them; well, next to people it is safer some - people have guns and dogs; some deer may like people that way).

Very similar to the bees.
Similar half-wild ecosystem is going with the reindeer.
I am sure some beeks will find this reindeer case-study very educational.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> I am sure some beeks will find this reindeer case-study very educational.


GregV:

This is really fascinating. I did a quick survey over my lunch break and this cultural practice is quite amazing. While I know little about the history and geography of Russia as a current nation-state, it was apparent quite quickly that these two ancient groups, while similar in their approach to reindeer husbandry are very different ethnically and religiously. I look forward to watching the videos through, and I am glad they have sub-titles.

The one thing that stood out right away from the website you referenced was the following quote (which seemed very much applicable to apiculture):

_"Climate and environment have always determined the conditions by which reindeer herding is practiced, and since the development of nation states, various regulatory bodies have evolved that determine many aspects of how reindeer herding is practiced. As a result, although the practice of reindeer husbandry has more similarities than differences, the management regimes they operate under are quite different."_


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## msl

I would argue keeping a wild type stock in its native area and in more or less its natural densities is a far cry from most beekeeping experiences, especially here in the US with such a shallow Feral gene pool and massive over stocking rates (compared to natural) in many areas


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## GregB

It is a drag, but I had a short-notice to remove my bees from one of the best out-yards had.
Unfortunately, the area got sold and new owner said - no bees. Them people......

Every year I landed 1-2 swarms directly in the yard.
Was a strategically good yard - pristine prairie, and yet a short drive away.
Technically, not so good for getting to the very hives - had to slog in rubber boots through some bog the last couple hundred yards.
Well, no more of that yard.
All good things end eventually.

Downsized to 6 yards; no so bad.
But one of my yards is overloaded at the moment, with all the splitting/queen mating going on.
And now these new-comers moved in too - 7 units at the moment - not great.

Very little sleep during the post-4th weekend - thanks to moving the darn bees (pretty worthless bees too at the moment - all about just eating and propagating - no honey or combs from these buggers so far - but they survived the brutal winter 2019, so must be something good in them).

The stuff that accumulated in the yard over the last three years - some drag to move too.
We did well, but this part of the beekeeping is some hassle (especially on the short-notice).


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> I would argue keeping a wild type stock in its native area and in more or less its natural densities is a far cry from most beekeeping experiences, especially here in the US with such a shallow Feral gene pool and *massive over stocking rates (compared to natural) in many areas*


At the same time we have pretty well balanced areas (not over-stocked) where the "reindeer" situations are present.
Look at the SP/FP cases right here.

Also, I would argue that people should be looking at the Russian Far East - the same, very similar story of "shallow feral gene" pool, etc, etc.
The same importation time frame and similar importation dynamics as in the US.
One significant difference - no migratory pollination business/not much migratory honey business - this allows for better/faster local population developments (compared to the US).

This particular Russian case is very much overlooked (why and how is beyond me - this case should be studied really, really hard - as a comparison case for the North American imported bees).
In fact - those mutt Far Eastern Russian bees are now officially classified as a primitive sub-species in Russian science (basically, a new, distinct sub-species emerges as in the process of development, just as we speak).


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> We did well, but this part of the beekeeping is some hassle (especially on the short-notice).


GregV:

Sorry to hear about the apiary location set-back. I must say I am impressed with the method you devised to move the colony set-up on poles. Great idea.

Having had to relocate a few hives, I can see how having these poles would make this a much less awkward effort.

Looking at the set-up, I couldn't help but imagine the Israelites moving the ark of the covenant...

Here's hoping another site opens up for you in the near future that allows you to minimize your crowding.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> Sorry to hear about the apiary location set-back. I must say I am impressed with the method you devised to move the colony set-up on poles. Great idea.
> 
> Having had to relocate a few hives, I can see how having these poles would make this a much less awkward effort.
> 
> Looking at the set-up, I couldn't help but imagine the Israelites moving the ark of the covenant...
> 
> Here's hoping another site opens up for you in the near future that allows you to minimize your crowding.


The poles require two person team (which I have) - very ergonomic; we easily move pretty heavy rigs over the terrain.
Moving a chest hive individually.... I would avoid if possible - some mess.
A disadvantage there.
But if a helper is available (most any average person can help; no qualification is necessary) - works great.

I do have other sites (no problem) - just logistically it was hard to do everything at 100% - I will gradually re-balance.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> I do have other sites (no problem) - just logistically it was hard to do everything at 100% - I will gradually re-balance.


This I do understand! As a self-diagnosed perfectionist, it really chafes me to do something less than what I consider ideal... but I have found that beekeeping rarely allows you the opportunity to approach steady-state.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> This I do understand! As a self-diagnosed perfectionist, it really chafes me to do something less than what I consider ideal... but I have found that beekeeping rarely allows you the opportunity to approach steady-state.


Exactly, Russ.
In beekeeping - one must be a rational compromiser.
It is never, ever 100%.

Last night had to leave behind few bees while moving the last nuc.
Just was getting too late - the bees kept flying away - too bad - probably lost a hand-full foragers - not 100% moved (but somewhere in 99%, pretty sure).


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## msl

> At the same time we have pretty well-balanced areas (not over-stocked) where the "reindeer" situations are present.
> Look at the SP/FP cases right here.


great example, SP did a great job documenting the natural system trying to recorect the overstocking in the area. 

going by Seeley, mean distance between hives was 850m 

ok ok I know you don’t like Seeley, so let’s go with Galton, D. (1971) Survey of a thousand years of beekeeping in Russia. In medieval Nizhny Novgorod the sournding forests had them spaced 700-1000m apart.

meanwhile wild rain deer herds can be quite large, in the 100s of thousands of animals, so the minimal human herding isn’t realy crowing the stock vs wild conditions. There is also somthing to be said about a migtory set up that leaves the ill behind, vs bees that rob the ill 

I would argue hives at 700m apart would be much more in line with the “rain deer” example.

sure putting 2-3 hives in a yard by them selfs insead of 850m apart isn't soo bad, if it was just one yard and miles to the next. The issue for many is there will be several such yards in the near by area.


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## GregB

I both like and dislike Seeley.
While interesting reads and very many original facts and ideas documented, some conclusions are made hastily and are questionable (and yet quoted right and left as if axioms).
I do mean to study his latest work iteration - it maybe a better one, granted he is an older, more seasoned and better informed person now.

To be sure, I am only an informed consumer, not a content producer/competitor to Seeley and similar authors.
But being a consumer, I have certain freedoms and use them at my will. 
Because I can.


Anyway, the reindeer..
I think the real point of appropriate spacing is NOT about having certain # of meters/feet between the hives.

The real point is - *to minimize random drifting to the lowest possible level* (thus minimizing the horizontal spread infection/parasites).

700-1000 meters between single hives is not mandatory or even possible most times.
Who has the unlimited time and space? I don't.
Distances between the distinct mini-yards can be much shorter.
But the hive separation WITHIN the yard must be very well de-marked.

I would say that the organization of a mini-yard itself is important (a mini-yard, to reiterate).

A row of 10 near-identical white stacks sitting on a single stand, wall by wall, and facing the same way - about the worst possible case. 
This is what people do commonly for convenience.
Basically, this is a case of ALL eggs put into the SAME basket to the worst possible extent.
This setup is basically just waiting for a catastrophe to happen (only a matter of time).

Mini-yards of 2-3 units should be similar to this picture (below).
Probably the best case I had (until the very recent splitting/bee moves; to be refactored again due to the overcrowding now - 7 hives in the same grove - need to move away OR move within the grove for better spacing).
The plot owner is still confused why I chose this mosquito-infested, over-grown tree grove - but I do mean to be bush-whacking
The bees, btw, care the least; they navigate within the forest canopy very well.
This is one concern the owner has - how is the bees will fly through the trees? 
Well, they fly the same way they always flew the last few millions of years - this is a non-issue for them.

I got the bee jacket too - works great against the mosquitoes.
I like the afternoon shade even better.
A perfect location to have distinctly separate units with 5-10 meters between, clearly de-marked by the trees and under-growth, and with well defined, separate flight paths in the forest canopy.








Of course, Seeley again, pictures this row of hives in an open space with 100 meters in between (I have seen his pictures).
Gee, just sit them around in some scrappy bushes or woods already and forget the "Seeley spacing".
Just one example of many that irk me.

PS: I did not forget about the robbing (vs. random drifting); 
well - with the robbing, 1000 meter distance is no help whatsoever and is irrelevant;
bees will deliberately come to rob 2000-3000-4000... meters away - the distance is only limited by the bee flying range (typical for any foraging flight - robbing is just a kind of foraging work);
so, the robbing is to be dealt differently - unit strength/entrance configuration/etc, etc - but not by hive separation distances;


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## GregB

msl said:


> ..go with Galton, D. (1971) Survey of a thousand years of beekeeping in Russia. In medieval Nizhny Novgorod the sournding forests had them spaced 700-1000m apart..


A very simple explanation for this spacing, btw.

When bees swarm naturally, it is not likely the very next tree has a perfect cavity in it.
Much more likely, a new cavity will be found within 1000 meter radius.
Well, the primitive beekeepers kept replicating similar logic.
They just emulated the bees when they selected the "best" trees to their liking before they spent considerable time and effort to carve hives into such trees.
So that ends up to be around "700-1000m apart" or similar to it - they still do this in the Bashkortostan region forests just as we speak.


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## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> I both like and dislike Seeley.
> While interesting reads and very many original facts and ideas documented, some conclusions are made hastily and are questionable (and yet quoted right and left as if axioms).
> I do mean to study his latest work iteration - it maybe a better one, granted he is an older, more seasoned and better informed person now.
> 
> To be sure, I am only an informed consumer, not a content producer/competitor to Seeley and similar authors.
> But being a consumer, I have certain freedoms and use them at my will.
> Because I can.
> 
> 
> Anyway, the reindeer..
> I think the real point of appropriate spacing is NOT about having certain # of meters/feet between the hives.
> 
> The real point is - *to minimize random drifting to the lowest possible level* (thus minimizing the horizontal spread infection/parasites).
> 
> 700-1000 meters between single hives is not mandatory or even possible most times.
> Who has the unlimited time and space? I don't.
> Distances between the distinct mini-yards can be much shorter.
> But the hive separation WITHIN the yard must be very well de-marked.
> 
> I would say that the organization of a mini-yard itself is important (a mini-yard, to reiterate).
> 
> A row of 10 near-identical white stacks sitting on a single stand, wall by wall, and facing the same way - about the worst possible case.
> This is what people do commonly for convenience.
> Basically, this is a case of ALL eggs put into the SAME basket to the worst possible extent.
> This setup is basically just waiting for a catastrophe to happen (only a matter of time).
> 
> Mini-yards of 2-3 units should be similar to this picture.
> Probably the best case I had (until the recent splitting/bee moves; to be refactored again due to the overcrowding now - 7 hives in the same grove).
> The plot owner is still confused why I chose this mosquito-infested, over-grown tree grove - but I do mean to be bush-whacking.
> I got the bee jacket too - works great against the mosquitoes.
> I like the afternoon shade even better.
> A perfect location to have distinctly separate units with 5-10 meters between, clearly de-marked by the trees and shrubs, and with well defined, separate flight paths in the forest canopy.
> View attachment 49891
> 
> 
> Of course, Seeley again, pictures this row of hives in an open space with 100 meters in between (I have seen his pictures).
> Gee, just sit them around in some scrappy bushes or woods already and forget the "Seeley spacing".
> Just one example of many that irk me.
> 
> PS: I did not forget about the robbing (vs. random drifting);
> well - with the robbing, 1000 meter distance is no help whatsoever and is irrelevant;
> bees will deliberately come to rob 2000-3000-4000... meters away - the distance is only limited by the bee flying range (typical for any foraging flight - robbing is just a kind of foraging work);
> so, the robbing is to be dealt differently - unit strength/entrance configuration/etc, etc - but not by hive separation distances;



I am with you on the Seeley points. In the swarming study the bees first picked the chimney, which was "blocked" then the "swarm" was a shook swarm of small size like 1/2 to 1 pound. So then an extensive study was done when the first choice was removed and on an Island only other choices were controlled. This not gospel this is an experiment. So we do not set out to capture a shook 1/2 pound swarm on an Island. I realize the controls need to be in place to have a repeatable experiment. But in an open environment with a 5 pound real swarm, the outcome can be very different. I do love to read his studies and articles, but I take the granularity with a grain of salt. My latest Site is spaced better, most are min 35 paces apart like 90 feet. I like SE facing Open, and a shade for the after noon sun. SE side of a Pine works for me. Also use different colors if I can. I can understand the need to keep drifting down. the pic with both, then has each up close., the third pic shows a second one in the background.
GG


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## GregB

Some of my sites just like yours, GG.
Everywhere I have afternoon shade - mostly for my own benefit.
I need to pic/post them.

Basically, I target to:
1)drive up as close as possible;
2)unload the gear to a central spot within the mini-yard;
3)be able to work the mini-yard as a single project - move frames/nucs between - move tools/equipment - relight the smoker - working radius of 10-20 yards/meters allows this fine.
(I don't want to be lagging all things 100-200-.... meters hive to a hive to a hive - over and over and over - just a non-starter for lots of practical reasons).

If a hives setup as a cluster (not a row), you can then easily work them within short-distance (using the center of the cluster as your base).
Pretty ergonomic/efficient; and yet the hives are well separated.
This will often require placing some hives into the bush/trees so you have a kind of a polygon shape organization, not a row.
Most often people will try to follow the tree line - well, not required and just adds to the work mileage - plugging a hive nearby, behind a bush/tree is just as good and bees don't mind.


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## GregB

I guess, I meant to post a picture of my current setup (down to 6 mini-yards now).
The main base and the center of the 5-point "star" is my home.
1 mile unit is visible on the Google map - for a scale.
I just lost one of the "north" locations, about 1 mile SE from my home base.


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## Gray Goose

GregV so far it is working well, I use a wheelbarrow to fill with stuff and then go hive to hive, So far the thing I like best is the separation helps with the aggravated bees. the old site if you happen to open a queenless or aggressive hive first those angry bees are buzzing around for all the rest of the hive inspections. here as you move off those bees are not following. These hives are basically around the edge of the back, front yard yard. I have 10 here today. I have 10 acres so with a gator or small ATV trailer I can also expand them apart even more. So far they are all 300 feet from my shed where all the hive stuff is kept. Only downer I see is I need to keep the shed closed tight as they will find and start to rob out the honey in the frames in the shed.
I currently do work from Home so at lunch I am out to have a quick look at several or add a super of check for a queen being mated. SO far I Like the backyard, spread out approach. I'll see how they winter here. All 3 in the pics were swarms Hived in the last 5 weeks. I have 3 more trees picked out, weed wacker and 15 min for site prep  
My site separation is 4 hour drive  this is what drove getting this new place. production hives up north NUCs and breeders in the back yard.
I took a NUC up last weekend and set it up for production, for the "test" run, Closed it up in pre dawn and hit the road with the AC on, crude but it worked. Was heading up to super any way.
GG


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> GregV ... I have 10 acres so with a gator or small ATV trailer ..GG


Well, gee!
I can only dream of 10 acres.
Sitting on a suburban lot of 0.25 acre/6 hive max limitation.
With 10 acres in the pocket, I am sure I would redesign some of my gymnastics.
On the other hand, my limitations maybe the diamond in disguise - forcing me into this variation of the "Darwinian model" for the better.

But also, being a "gamer", I am kinda trying to "outplay and survive" all the random beeks and other factors around me.
So this is a real survival game played over several square miles - live (NOT virtual) - keeps me interested.
So is that part too.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> The real point is - *to minimize random drifting to the lowest possible level* (thus minimizing the horizontal spread infection/parasites).
> 
> PS: I did not forget about the robbing (vs. random drifting);
> well - with the robbing, 1000 meter distance is no help whatsoever and is irrelevant;
> bees will deliberately come to rob 2000-3000-4000... meters away - the distance is only limited by the bee flying range (typical for any foraging flight - robbing is just a kind of foraging work);
> so, the robbing is to be dealt differently - unit strength/entrance configuration/etc, etc - but not by hive separation distances;


GregV and GG:

I enjoyed reading your discussion here on this topic and your approaches make sense to me. It seems that the most critical factors in apiary design might include, but not be limited to (taking one's specific situation into account):

1. Minimizing drift by appropriate colony placement (as opposed to strictly distance).

2. Minimizing robbing by appropriate management (i.e. entrance quantity, size and protection).

3. Maximizing beekeeper access efficiency.

4. Maximizing resource sharing (i.e. maybe two colonies per location or production/nuc/trap set-up like GregV).

5. Minimizing theft, nuisance calls, zoning problems, etc.


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## GregB

Few pics of my "congested" mini-yard at 7 live units plus a trap.
This AM I moved nucs around some to re-balance the pop and to gradually move them apart.
If all nucs manage to mate well, will move 3 units to different yards.

This is the center of the mini-yard where I usually carry-in my stuff, drop it here, light up smoker, and get to work.








Moved the strongest nuc here this AM so it shares away some of its pop with the smaller units (which took its place).








These two units are the "lazy" bees I moved here over the weekend from the discontinued location.
The big hive - messy frame cleaners (all they want to do so far - reprocess the old honey vs. be bringing the new honey; I guess someone needs to be a cleaner too).
The nuc - trying to mate out a potential replacement for the "lazy" queen.


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## GregB

The backyard situation - The Grey Mother hive (subject to the fly-back project) and 4 mating nucs that came out of that.









Plenty of physical obstacles and clues so to make the hives distinct (not need for 100 meter spacing out - impossible here anyway).









My childhood bee yard was basically a berry plantation and orchard with the hives intermixed with the berry bushes and apple trees.
Trying the same in my backyard.
Forcing the bees to fly around/over/through the vegetation and objects is nothing but good for everyone.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> My childhood bee yard was basically a berry plantation and orchard with the hives intermixed with the berry bushes and apple trees.
> Trying the same in my backyard.
> Forcing the bees to fly around/over/through the vegetation and objects is nothing but good for everyone.


For my part, I think you have the right idea, Greg. Attempting to create something similar in my own yard, while also trying to keep all entrances facing South and East as our storms here almost always come out of the Northwest.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> For my part, I think you have the right idea, Greg. Attempting to create something similar in my own yard, while also *trying to keep all entrances facing South and East as our storms here almost always come out of the Northwest.*


Same here.
Most all winds here (winter for sure) come from the Northwest quadrant.
So I play with my entrances to be facing the Southeast quadrant - which gives plenty of options having 90 degrees to play with.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Most all winds here (winter for sure) come from the Northwest quadrant.


The one exception here being the hurricane remnants which come up from the gulf from time-to-time and can wreak havoc- these tend to come straight from the South so I do try to orient openings East of South to avoid the direct wind/rain entry.


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## BigBlackBirds

Do you folks notice significant differences in outcomes based on hive orientation? I run roughly half on bottom boards and half on pallets. Virtually no rhyme or reason to direction they face, general randomness. I've wondered sometimes about avoiding certain directions due to winter winds but in the end I dont see where it matters alot. We get hit with plenty of northwest winter wind but some of the worst storms can pound us from the east so not sure one direction is better than another for me. More often than not we have at least enough winter snow to block and insulate the bottom entrances; perhaps that takes some of the wind factor out of the equation. However, i dont disagree that wind can be an issue. In decades past when a good chunk of our operation wintered not too far off lake michigan there was always some difference in overwintering success compared to the portion that wintered 30-70 miles inland. However, cant say that i could say that direction hive faced was ever noted, Not sure if I was to winter off the lake now whether I'd insulate/wrap or not. It's probably as windy here in mid state as by lake and I've opted to avoid wrapping hassles so far


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## GregB

BigBlackBirds said:


> Do you folks notice significant differences in outcomes based on hive orientation? ....


Donno, BBB.

All I can say - I will hate turning a darn-heavy hive in fall so the winter winds don't blow in.
Might as well set it once and forget it the same way.
With that I just point them anywhere in Southeast quadrant and call it done.
One exception - mating nucs I even had facing West temporarily.

But also - ALL my yards are set to be in the afternoon shade anyway (for my own work convenience) - this generally means they have to look somewhere in Southeast direction.
Some of them fly up East, then turn 180 degrees, and fly over the woods towards West (because a big pasture is there).
I could have just set them on the West side of the grove - but then I would be baked alive in the PM Sun - not smart.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> But also - ALL my yards are set to be in the afternoon shade anyway (for my own work convenience) - this generally means they have to look somewhere in Southeast direction.


BBB:

I don't have the experience in years to know whether entrance orientation makes an impact on overwintering success or not, but I have followed the same line of logic that GregV has, namely:

1. An entrance facing East-South-East is permanently protected from direct wind/rain entry in my locale.

2. Colonies on the East edge of a tree lot have the benefit of early direct sun (for foraging efficiency) and afternoon shade (for beekeeper benefit).

Beyond that, I do have some colonies with entrances that face straight South with no shade and I don't observe a significant difference in how the colonies go about their day relative to the East facing colonies.

Others with more experience under their belts might have some anecdotal observations regarding entrance orientation and overwintering success. I would certainly be interested in hearing about it too.

Russ


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> BBB:
> 
> I don't have the experience in years to know whether entrance orientation makes an impact on overwintering success or not, but I have followed the same line of logic that GregV has, namely:
> 
> 1. An entrance facing East-South-East is permanently protected from direct wind/rain entry in my locale.
> 
> 2. Colonies on the East edge of a tree lot have the benefit of early direct sun (for foraging efficiency) and afternoon shade (for beekeeper benefit).
> 
> Beyond that, I do have some colonies with entrances that face straight South with no shade and I don't observe a significant difference in how the colonies go about their day relative to the East facing colonies.
> 
> Others with more experience under their belts might have some anecdotal observations regarding entrance orientation and overwintering success. I would certainly be interested in hearing about it too.
> 
> Russ


Lately I have been wintering in a Shed for my way up north hives, The entrance faces East, do to open fields from the west and lots of winter wind.
I close the 4 x 4 opening by 3/4. I set 2 hives side by side so each has a "warm" side and put 1 inch foam on top with a quad folded shipping blanket over the top that reaches down the sides 1/2 way. So in a nut shell , no ground moisture , very reduced wind, no rain and sleet and snow. i was 7 out of 9 in the shed last winter. IMO the shelter , what ever you can provide does help. I also up there use Quilt boxes with 3/8 x 2 inch upper entrance. The shed hold a dozen hives well, 15 in a pinch. I shingled the walls as in my deer blinds I find the shingled ones warmer and dryer.
GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> Lately I have been wintering in a Shed for my way up north hives...


GG:

Now that is one cool bee shed- I won't lie, I'm a little jealous...

I suppose if you buttoned-up the bottom section you could use this as your honey house and all you would have to do would be to bring the supers down one level, extract them and put them right back on.

I am making a mental note of this for a good retirement project.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GG:
> Now that is one cool bee shed- I won't lie, I'm a little jealous...
> .


+100!
A dream shed.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> GG:
> 
> Now that is one cool bee shed- I won't lie, I'm a little jealous...
> 
> I suppose if you buttoned-up the bottom section you could use this as your honey house and all you would have to do would be to bring the supers down one level, extract them and put them right back on.
> 
> I am making a mental note of this for a good retirement project.


Very astute, that is the long term plan, driving a point for water this fall need water to do an extract IMO
took only 6 or so weekends  we basically had the wood and it was use it or loose it. My Uncle has a sawmill across the road from this property.
the wood was 3 years in the stacks, some was going bad.
GG


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> +100!
> A dream shed.


14 X 20 We had some left over 14 foot 2x10 and a pile of various species Inch lumber. Maple 1x8 on the floor mostly pine and spruce on the walls and roof.
I did buy some 4x6 treated, and the nails and shingles.
It has 4 --4X4 windows on the east side and 1 4X4 on the south and north. a lean to on each side from left over 16 foot 2x8
I have 4x4 and 2x4 chunks of 1/2 inch plywood as hole covers. ( windows made to be 4 foot ready) Awnings go down nov 1, holes are covered durring deer season nov 15th ish.
Holes are uncovered when it gest to melting the snow in spring, awnings up when the snow is gone. North and south windows opened when cooling is needed, for better ventilation.
So far it is working good.


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## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> My Uncle has a sawmill across the road from this property.
> the wood was 3 years in the stacks, some was going bad.
> GG


Well I am impressed- seems well-thought-out and a good use of what would otherwise be wasted resources. 

I sincerely hope that it ends up exceeding your expectations, and I will look forward to progress photos if you are willing...


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## GregB

Been finger-counting here....
Well, shoot, if every July start-up pans out as set - I will have 20 units to try to winter.
Now, I got no equipment to do that (yet).
Why I am doing this to myself?


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Been finger-counting here....
> Well, shoot, if every July start-up pans out as set - I will have 20 units to try to winter.
> Now, I got no equipment to do that (yet).
> Why I am doing this to myself?


Hi Greg, In the long hive of yours, have you tried to put one colony in each end? with divider boards on the inner edge adding in frames to the center?
Mine will allow that, it helps to put 2 in one box, if one fails to make the winter the combs can be just slid over in the spring. I'm in the same boat out of tops and bottoms, and down to the last few combs. A swarm at this point would need to go into NUC boxes.

good luck with the 20 units having 10-12 good strong ones in the spring would be a interesting 2020
GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Hi Greg, In the long hive of yours, have you tried to put one colony in each end? .....GG


I have.
When in a pinch, I will do that too - because I can (will fit 8 units into 4 long hives).
I simply dislike tight quarters and try to avoid if I can help it (that empty hive end is very handy for lots of uses).


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> good luck with the 20 units having 10-12 good strong ones in the spring would be a interesting 2020
> GG


This sounds like an ambitious and doable plan for next year that gives you lots of options.

What do they say about necessity being the mother of invention? As ingenious as you are, I have no doubt you will figure out a creative means to house them all.

Congratulations on the successful starts.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger found a great document and posted in his thread (it is there to read).
I will steal a great quote since it fits exact idea I am trying to maintain in my own "Darwinian-modified" approaches.

This one:


> The research shows that *beekeepers can greatly stimulate varroa infestation* by: ...... (2) *putting colonies close together in a row*..................


I am going to omit the discussion of horizontal transmissions of the parasites/infections by the drifting bees.

Instead, I want to point out - close clustering bee colonies in a row is the *farthest possible *placement of the colonies from natural.
Why?
Because naturally trees do NOT grow in tight and proper rows.
Ground caves are also NOT found in properly designed rows.
Nothing in nature exists in rows.

This human tendency to have everything organized in rows and stacks (while industrially efficient and logical) completely screws up bees natural abilities to orient in space.
In 3-D space we normally orient by distinct X-Y-Z parameters for each object.
I imagine bees are affected by the same phenomena.
So, a long row of closely placed, similar entrances screw up the distinct X-Y-Z parameters since the distinctions become hard for the bees to decypher (yes - smell helps somewhat, but close placement of the hives confuses the smells too).
Notice, how "blind" bees are within close proximity to their own hive - there is a significant blind zone around the colony - within the blind zone bees are unable to effectively describe to the other bees locations of objects - they have no "words" to describe the positions of the objects located too close to each other.

I don't know how - but the rows definitely screw with the bees brains somehow and mess up the orientation - not good.
So in my program, I insist on NOT having rows. 
Instead, it is sort of a checker-board placement (integrating other objects into the checker-board - trees/bushes/structures) or an outward facing circle or just a random placement based on the specific place.
Basically, I want each hive entrance to have its own unmistakable X-Y-Z coordinates and unique direction.

If I happen to have kind of a row that is mitigated by the differing entrance orientations and other objects to give bees visual clues. 
This is one reason I don't like two colonies in the same long hive - (that is a row) - the corner placed entrances and other clues (coloring) do help the bees (still I try avoiding this placement).

A very simple and yet effective rule - no rows.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> So in my program, I insist on NOT having rows.
> 
> A very simple and yet effective rule - no rows.


GregV:

For my part, I think you are on to something here. It seems there is little downside to arranging one's hives in such a fashion other than a management efficiency penalty, and there seems to be quite a lot of evidence that there is a lot of benefit to colony health. For hobby operators at least, there seems to be little to lose and potentially quite a lot to gain by arranging one's hives in a random fashion.


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## msl

4,000 years or so of rows..... must be something there

Might it help, yes. If I put a band aid on a bullet wound it might help... but some quick clot, a tourniquet, quick 1st responded response, ALS support and and arrival at a trauma surgical center in under an hour turns the tide. 
not saying don't if you can, can' t hurt. But the volume of hives needed to support a self sufficiency yard (no imports... swarms or other wise ) often means rows for many small scale keepers with limited space. 
In stead, in most cases, detection and removal of high pathogen load hives seems to be the way forward with most bee issues... 
stop the spreading of pathogens from sick hives, stop the poor genetics. both are needed to happen, but as we live in a tractor trailer beekeeping world, we can only do little against the latter, so we must attack the first one...


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> .....4,000 years or so of rows..... must be something there........


... Rows and rows of smallish "bee-jars" of *Egyptian *bee colonies (10-20-30 liters? anyone?), allowed to swarm at will, running the natural cell free combs that were routinely cut-out and rebuilt .... 

Apis mellifera lamarckii - "It is considered defensive, low in honey yield, and *exhibiting good hygienic behavior*". 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_mellifera_lamarckii

Surely cases of massive transmissible infections and parasites that wiped entire bee-walls out but were NEVER/EVER treated for obvious reasons.
The collapsed bee-walls were promptly repopulated right back by abundant feral swarms just looking to re-fill back those "bee-jars".

No Facebook/Twitter to immediately announce to the World how you just lost your 500 bee hives.... and why even bother "twitting" - in few short months you'd get back all the bees you care to "keep" by doing nothing...


Should I continue?


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> ....... often means rows for many small scale keepers with limited space. .........


Unsure about the other small scale keepers - I can have 10-20 yards IF I want to - getting those yards is stupid simple in my location (people beg you to bring bees; but also never hurts to ask - which I do).
Well, if those small scale keepers don't want to bother with multiple locations.... too bad - all I can say (yes, I get it - not everyone is capable, but most just don't want to bother).

Yes - it takes extra time and effort and planning ahead your bee-yard work.
No - you don't need to go and see your remote bees every other day (once in 2-3 weeks is sufficient).
Yes - you can make few strategic decisions and still be efficient with multiple small yards.
No - it will not be as convenient as when ALL your bees are in a single backyard, few steps away.
Yes - "Redundancy and Recoverability" is a common sense approach in Finance, Information Technology, Military, ...... and Beekeeeping.


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## GregB

GregV said:


> ... Rows and rows of smallish "bee-jars" of *Egyptian *bee colonies (10-20-30 liters? anyone?), allowed to swarm at will, running the natural cell free combs that were routinely cut-out and rebuilt ....
> .............
> Should I continue?


Why, I forgot - in the "Primitive beekeeping" thread I even posted a video of this exact way of beekeeping as we speak in places like Oman, Bahrain, Yemen and such places:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8IN3VeILaQ

Now, everything I stated above about the Egypt 4000 years ago - stays pretty much the same. 
Yemeni Bees have been doing great and will likely continue to do great.

They don't know what the chemical treatments are as these are pretty much irrelevant as the bees live just as any wild bee in a log.
These are also not the temperate forest bees.

Will this work in my North American backyard? 
No.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV:

Not to throw shade on this discussion, but I ran-across a research paper published in the July 2019 edition of the _Journal of Applied Ecology_ that specifically addresses the question of apiary configuration and disease prevalence that I thought would be germane to this discussion.

The paper is entitled,_ ‘Industrial bees: The impact of apicultural intensification on local disease prevalence’_:

https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1365-2664.13461
https://phys.org/news/2019-07-intensive-beekeeping-blame-common-bee.html

They looked at apiary sizes between 9 and 225 colonies, arranged in three (3) different configurations (see attached photo).

The difference between the best and worst-case arrangements netted, _“… a 10‐fold increase in movement of honeybees between colonies.”_

The results were summarized by noting that, _“Even at its peak, the effect of intensification (which is as extreme as plausible), leads to an additional ~18% of bees infected at disease equilibrium.”
_
The lead researcher is quoted as saying-

_"Crowding of animals or crops—or people—into minimal space usually increases rates of disease spread,"_ said Lewis Bartlett, of the University of Exeter and Emory University.

_"We carried out this study because beekeepers were worried about this—especially given the many threats currently causing the decline of bees.

To our surprise, our results show it's very unlikely that crowding of honeybees meaningfully aids the spread of diseases that significantly harm honeybees.

Honeybees live in close proximity to each other naturally, and our models show that adding more bees does little to raise disease risk.

So, beekeepers don't need to worry about how many bees they keep together as long as there is enough food for them.

The key is not whether they encounter a disease—it's whether they are fit and healthy enough to fight it off."_

After reading the paper, a few observations jumped-out at me, namely:

1.	The research was based on mathematical models of disease spread based on empirical data collected relative to inter-colony Nosema transmission.

2.	The results suggest that increased hive densities do not significantly increase disease spread, _“… because even low‐intensity apiculture exhibits high disease prevalence.”_

3.	The findings are silent concerning ectoparasite transmission (i.e. varroa), though some of the modeled diseases (i.e. DWV) are closely-related to mite incursions.

So, it appears the crux of the findings suggest that at least for certain pathogens (those with a relatively high R0) there is a, _“… universally rapid spread.”_ R0 is defined in the context of the paper as, _“… a fundamental concept in infectious disease ecology, defined as the average number of secondary infections caused by one infectious individual in an otherwise entirely susceptible population.”_

Similarly, the converse would be true- diseases with a relatively low R0 would be best mitigated by decreasing the hive density. That said, they note, _"...we argue that there is likely to be a high base R0 in important honeybee diseases and, therefore, our models suggest that there is likely to be little effect of apiary‐scale intensification on disease prevalences. However, if a pathogen emerges with a relatively low R0, our model does indicate that extreme intensification could lead to a significant increase in prevalence of approximately 18.5%."_

While the results (particularly the discussion) left me wanting more, it appears that they are intimating (but not yet hypothesizing) that because drones are allowed to travel between hives at-will, latent robbing is normative and important bee diseases are highly virulent, hive spacing and orientation in-and-of-itself is only of limited value in reducing disease spread. 

All that said, it still makes common sense to me that on a practical level it is better to spread one’s colonies out as much as is practical, especially on a hobbyist level where one is afforded the luxury to do so as I can see no real downside.


----------



## GregB

Russ,

I too thought of this common idea of "drones crossing-over to any hive of their choosing" and how they too are the vehicles of the horizontal pathogen transmission.
IF true and/or significant enough - why all those talks by Seeley and the company of the spacing, etc, etc.
What does it matter IF drones will cross the colony-lines anyway regardless of the spacing/orientation/distinction?

Well, few observations..

I have very dark drones and light drones in different mother hives; I have to say - I am yet to see lots "light" drones to be present in the "dark" hives (and vice versa). 
While I have seen some mix up (due to possibly foreign drones) I would not call such mix ups very significant AS IF the drones do NOT care where they exited and where they returned - seems to me they very much return to the same hive they exited from (unless a T-Storm caught them far away).

Also - as we are aware, the queen will generate *very consistent drones* (not a wide variety, like with the worker bees under the conditions of wide hybridization due to the packages, migration, etc). 
So, as expected, in my "dark" hives I find dark drones; in my "light" hives I find light drones.
I am yet to observe a mix of drones in a hive (maybe 2-3 there and here; but nothing of a significant mix - this tells me - no significant drone migrations is happening as written up all over).

If anything to measure the bee drifting - they should be instead talking of the drone drifting (easier to do because the drones are consistent per their mother hive and so you can actually observe and count them reliably).

Especially of interest - I have this 2-frame nuc of very small population with a newly mated queen.
What I did - I grabbed lots of drones (there was a large cluster of mostly drones hanging outside the mother hive) - I then dumped them into my nuc so to add the population to it (drones are beneficial in hive thermo-regulation - especially in a weak hive). To prevent the questions - yes, I feed this nuc using a frame of old stores - all those drones need to be fed too.

So let me state here - those drones largely are staying in the same nuc as I meant them to be - to help with brood warming.
Since the population numbers are easy to estimate (2-frames only) - I can tell - the drones ARE staying here as if this nuc is their home-base.
Also - these ALL are dark drones generated by the dark mother hive - so I can tell - I have not found a single light drone yet in this 2-frame nuc - no foreign drones.
The drones could be flying around - but ultimately - they still return home - this little 2-frame nuc.
And so - the drones do have their preferred home-base, per my observation, and do not flip the hives willy-nilly as they wish.
Presumably, they will be let in any hive if asked to enter - but they are probably prefer returning to their well-know home-base (conditions permitting).

Speaking of the "Industrial bees"....
I want to presume up front - they did not do their studies in a forest, but rather in an open field with no distinct markers outside of a bunch of identical white boxes in different row formations (a matrix of rows; curved row - resulting in a circle; straight row). In such setups, there is always a "white, 3-box" home base, and the "3-box white" hive left of it and the "3-box white" hive right of it - pretty soon and given enough time, you don't know which is which - and everything will average out across the yard (mites, smells, infections, etc).

Here in my town, we have one of the largest AG schools in the nation.
They are big in research, funded by the various AG and CHEM industries and so it goes... 
They can justify just about anything and invent just about anything to ensure those research grants keep coming in.

All in all, next week I will do my final count of the July queen mating.
Fingers crossed for 12/12 or close to it.
Pretty sure it will happen; pretty sure the nuc placements/orientations would be a positive factor; not allowing the mating queens to get confused - very critical.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> I too thought of this common idea of "drones crossing-over to any hive of their choosing" and how they too are the vehicles of the horizontal pathogen transmission. IF true and/or significant enough - why all those talks by Seeley and the company of the spacing, etc, etc.
> What does it matter IF drones will cross the colony-lines anyway regardless of the spacing/orientation/distinction?


GregV: No arguments from me- for my part, I think the idea of random apiary design is a good thing and I intend to continue employing it as much as practical in my own yard, if for no other reason than the practical benefits of less drift, higher percentage queen returns, etc. 

I *think* based on my understanding of the research is that they are suggesting that (as an example) given that drones are considered to be more susceptible to disease carrying and that they are generally welcome in any hive, it could conceivably only take one (1) EFB carrying drone (as an example) to carry the disease to an otherwise healthy colony and thus vector in infection. I suppose one might be able to combat this scenario by installing robbing screens on all hives?

So the take-away was that for these diseases where it 'only takes one' to spread, a lower density might only decrease the rate but not the totality of the disbursement.

Still- it just makes intuitive sense to me to spread them out, and that is a good enough reason to do it in my mind.

Keep up the good work!

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV: No arguments from me- for my part, I think the idea of random apiary design is a good thing and I intend to continue employing it as much as practical in my own yard, if for no other reason than the practical benefits of less drift, higher percentage queen returns, etc.
> 
> I *think* based on my understanding of the research is that they are suggesting that (as an example) given that drones are considered to be more susceptible to disease carrying and that they are generally welcome in any hive, it could conceivably only take one (1) EFB carrying drone (as an example) to carry the disease to an otherwise healthy colony and thus vector in infection. I suppose one might be able to combat this scenario by installing robbing screens on all hives?
> 
> So the take-away was that for these diseases where it 'only takes one' to spread, a lower density might only decrease the rate but not the totality of the disbursement.
> 
> Still- it just makes intuitive sense to me to spread them out, and that is a good enough reason to do it in my mind.
> 
> Keep up the good work!
> 
> Russ


Sure.
As for me I am about "totally" sure I will never have total survival - like 100%. 
This particular part is about totally impossible.
Haha!

Does not matter how randomly I place the hives across the landscape, how successfully mate the July splits, etc, etc.

50-60% survival for me is a success and is way, way above the natural norm (25%?)
With that even 50% is abnormally high and pushing the natural limits.

With that I am never worried of a single EFB drone coming in. So what? OK, a hive will die. Maybe.

Heck, I am more worried of my potato and apple crop this year. 
Green beans too - darn bunnies mowed down my green bean crop to the ground. Just replanted again.
Got lots of summer squash though this summer - to be frozen I guess.
So - do the redundancy and recover-ability and you are going to be OK.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> So - do the redundancy and recover-ability and you are going to be OK.


I think the idea of 'resilient design' is hard to argue against, and as you said is applicable in just about any industry... and I do unfortunately know all about the trials and trepidations in the orchard and the garden. Sometimes makes beekeeping seem easy by comparison!


----------



## GregB

As far as ants go - I got lots of them and the bees don't seem to mind (none absconded yet).

Shake them out/sweep them out of the way and moving alone - no sleep lost.
They are typically back the next time I check the hive.
I got them all - little ones and big ones.
The big, black ones make for a better picture, so here is one from the last night.

WARNING, don't look if have ant-phobia.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Been finger-counting here....
> Well, shoot, if every July start-up pans out as set - I will have 20 units to try to winter.
> Now, I got no equipment to do that (yet).
> Why I am doing this to myself?


OK, checked the remaining start-ups.
Writing off one as a failure.
It also looks as if one of the nucs with two QCs in it issued a little swarm with a virgin (both QCs hatched and the bees are fewer than I expected, but I still have a queen in there).
I hope someone nearby gets this little TF virgin queen and keeps her well; I sure did not catch her.

So have 19 queen-right units to play with now, of various shapes and sizes.
One is on just 2 frames but the queen is good and they should build up.
A bunch of 3-framers.
A couple of May splits on 8-10 frames.
A very late June swarm on 8 frames.
And 6 big resource/production hives (including a prime swarm caught in late May; I have a suspicion that another swarm landed directly onto them and joined in - but only a suspicion).

Summer is still long and full of forages ahead of us.
Oh my!
Kind of fun, actually.
Think of it - much better place to be than having a single purchased nuc to be panicked about 24/7.
Another day one such new beek here was panicky a little - he though he might have been queen-less because he had too many drones flying.
Well, we got some bigger fish to fry, to worry of few flying drones.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> So have 19 queen-right units to play with now, of various shapes and sizes.


Way to go, GregV. That is a lot of queens, so it sounds like you have a lot of options for the next two months.

Good job on the propagation efforts.

Russ


----------



## SeaCucumber

I met Troy Hall. He's TF and from mid NH. He had 300 large honey hives. He also has a mating yard with small hives. He overwinters mininucs. He said he looses 50% of the big hives and less of the nucs. It sounded like he was experienced and doing well. For good survival, the trick seems to be to winter lots of nucs. He gave a talk about his Michael Palmer style queen rearing. The queens were red and black (no brown or yellow). He said they were carni + a little Russian. He uses common foundation.


----------



## squarepeg

interesting information about troy at the 'hall apiaries' website. i didn't provide a link because he is marketing his bees and honey on it.


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## msl

David did you happen to catch what kind of mininuc he was using?


----------



## Juhani Lunden

SeaCucumber said:


> I met Troy Hall. He's TF and from mid NH. He had 300 large honey hives. He also has a mating yard with small hives. He overwinters mininucs. He said he looses 50% of the big hives and less of the nucs. It sounded like he was experienced and doing well. For good survival, the trick seems to be to winter lots of nucs. He gave a talk about his Michael Palmer style queen rearing. The queens were red and black (no brown or yellow). He said they were carni + a little Russian. He uses common foundation.


:thumbsup:

Nuc box like Webster style, but then another picture of a smaller frame?


----------



## SeaCucumber

It is a Langstroth deep with a permanent divider attached to the long sides. The divider has frame rests. The frames are nearly half length. Mobile dividers are often feeders. They usually split the box in 4. entrances: 4, 1 per side, spaced far apart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA3yiNoAh4o
They say this makes finding queens fast. Beginners should start with full frame queen castles that can be divided in 2, 3, or 4.


----------



## GregB

Anyways....
Aside from the queen castles which I don't practice...
One reason - they require much attention and strict time management, which I don't have.

In fact, I should fire myself over poor time/resource management (e.g. bee equipment management, like frame building, has be done during off season, not now - nothing new though - called procrastination).

Last weekend I had to be harvesting berries as absolute TOP priority (not monkeying with the frigging bees).
Seriously, those splits could wait another week and more even.

Once those splits are created (the critical part actually) into the proper equipment with some spill-over space, one can forget of them for a month and up - no sweat.
Lost upwards to 50% of my black currant crop - it turned into wine/dropped onto the floor. 
Hating this part as I bush wack through the currant patch on observe the losses of my own doing.

Raspberry crop is mostly a failure this year (just written it off) to Japanese beetles. 
I am mostly already resigned on the raspberry this year and moved on.
But also the raspberry patch in severe need of renovation/move to a new place (this is similar to bee colony renovation by splitting). 
Grr...

The only pressing thing with the bees to do - I need to harvest some low-quality drone brood and press it into the food supplement. 
I hope I did not blew this project yet.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV:

This article came across my newsfeed. Is this something you have been reading about in the news coming out of Russia?

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/07/26/what-killing-russia-honey-bees-a66563


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> This article came across my newsfeed. Is this something you have been reading about in the news coming out of Russia?
> 
> https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/07/26/what-killing-russia-honey-bees-a66563


Based on the youtube channels that I keep track of, several beekeeping content generators have been very annoyed by this.
One issue as I understand - large AG operators have been expanding rape fields (a common example much spoken about).

This ends up being terrible because nearby bees are very much attracted to the rape fields (very good nectar).
Normally, this is a good thing; even though the rape honey is mediocre and terrible for later bee use (crystallizes very quickly).
But if extracted quickly and sold in volume - this is good revenue.
At the same time the operators have been applying insecticides without any regards to the surrounding bees (there is no coordination in place OR even desire to coordinate I hear).

On the other hand, the beeks should be organizing and pushing the issue as a united front through media and politicians (not fuming on youtube channels and even calling for direct sabotage, e.g. setting metal stakes in field, tossing wire around, etc - talking nearly Civil War in making).

I think both sides are to blame as they don't really care for each other's problems and operations and just taking each other for granted.
The larger beeks (instead of quietly taking advantage of the rape plantations - or so they hoped) should be formally contracting with the rape producers for pollination (since it is rape seed what the AG is after). Some probably do. But the same applies to the AG operators too - they should be contracting and coordinating, NOT just taking advantage of the bees and then screwing people up.

Basically, both AG operators and the commercial beeks are oriented very much towards quick, short-term profits (nothing new).
Setting up the operations based on cooperation and long-term sustainability is not very popular (again, this sounds too familiar not just in Russia).

It is the small beeks I feel for. 
They are not in position to contract for anything. 
They are just happening to be near by and get hit by random chem applications.

PS: OK, little politics - the ecological controls in Russia are very much absent (just as the article says);
so, this is what we will be looking at given the current US administration gets to eliminate the controls here (as if this is good for business);
yes, there will be winners and there will be losers; 
the BS crowd will be likely losers - just look what is happening in Russia - this is wild, post-soviet era capitalism in very many ways;


----------



## Thucar

As far as I am aware, rape does not need pollinators. So there is very little incentive for the farmer to give a hoot about beekeepers or their bees. At least this is how it is over here in Estonia. The mentality is "keep your filthy bees off my rape fields and they do not get poisoned."


----------



## GregB

Thucar said:


> As far as I am aware, rape does not need pollinators. So there is very little incentive for the farmer to give a hoot about beekeepers or their bees. At least this is how it is over here in Estonia. The mentality is "keep your filthy bees off my rape fields and they do not get poisoned."


I am not going to dig into pollination requirements for rape.
But a very quick Google search returned this link - indicating that the insect pollination affects the rape seed crop in a *very significant way*:



> Exclusion of pollinators resulted in a 27 % decrease in the number of seeds produced, and a 30 % decrease in seed weight per pod in winter crops,


https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10841-013-9599-z

So, if you are a rape seed producer and you are indiscriminately killing off the pollinators, you are are not a very smart operator or worse, as I can see it.


----------



## GregB

Bees are on the back burner in this household.
Homesteading is all about balance, common sense, and diversification.

Black currant crop - not great, but nothing to sniff at (this is only a portion; should be about 5 gallons frozen of the fresh berry crop).








Yellow Transparent apples are IN and the clock is ticking (this great early apple does not store much at all - hence you never see it for sale; must grow your own or know someone who does; the apple sauce is to kill for).







Apple sauce batch #1 in progress (I almost always mix some berry into my apples)...







... and done post-midnight into Monday morning.
~13 quarts.


----------



## gww

Greg
When I was young, we had a giant copper kettle and we would take all day taking turns adding wood and stirring to make large batches of apple butter. It was a family affair like making home made ice cream or butchering or rendering lard used to be.
Looks good.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Bees are on the back burner in this household.
> Homesteading is all about balance, common sense, and diversification.
> 
> Black currant crop - not great, but nothing to sniff at (this is only a portion; should be about 5 gallons frozen of the fresh berry crop).
> View attachment 50405
> 
> 
> Yellow Transparent apples are IN and the clock is ticking (this great early apple does not store much at all - hence you never see it for sale; must grow your own or know someone who does; the apple sauce is to kill for).
> View attachment 50407
> 
> Apple sauce batch #1 in progress (I almost always mix some berry into my apples)...
> View attachment 50409
> 
> ... and done post-midnight into Monday morning.
> ~13 quarts.
> View attachment 50411


Nice set of Pics Greg. If you get a chance try one of my Favs, put about 8 bunches of concord or very purple grapes in the applesauce. Makes graplesauce  I add a bit of honey and it is very tasty and a bit of a different flavor to the same ole applesauce.


----------



## GregB

gww said:


> Greg
> When I was young, we had a giant copper kettle and we would take all day taking turns adding wood and stirring to make large batches of apple butter. It was a family affair like making home made ice cream or butchering or rendering lard used to be.
> Looks good.
> Cheers
> gww


I hear you, gww!
I killed most of Sunday (yesterday) getting the Batch #1, 2019 done (including the apple picking too).
Got a tree of the Transparent apple full this year (they rested last season).
More is coming - reloading the annual apple sauce supply.

PS: the apple butter - I combine it with apple juice making (push the apples through the juicer -- the leftover pulp is dumped into the slower cooker and cooked there until ready -- already pretty dry and mashed -- no need to long cooking).
works out great for small batches of apple butter.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Nice set of Pics Greg. If you get a chance try one of my Favs, put about 8 bunches of concord or very purple grapes in the applesauce. Makes graplesauce  I add a bit of honey and it is very tasty and a bit of a different flavor to the same ole applesauce.


Ah!
Grapplesauce - a great idea and worth trying.
I grow no grapes myself, but easy enough to fetch from a store when doing the apples.

Sure - a bit of honey is good.
Typically, I add nothing and go for "tart-ish" sauce; but hey - I feel every batch should be different.


----------



## SeaCucumber

I have a new garden on small city land. I could trade plants. Its mostly raspberry, potato, sunchoke, asparagus, then there are small single plants (like saskatoon) that I should clone next year.


----------



## GregB

SeaCucumber said:


> I have a new garden on small city land. I could trade plants. Its mostly raspberry, potato, sunchoke, asparagus, then there are small single plants (like saskatoon) that I should clone next year.


Sometimes in upcoming winter/early spring I will make some offers (if remember).
I got lots of woody plant material (edibles) to barter away (preferably for TF/feral/local queens but will consider other things too).


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Greg
> When I was young, we had a giant copper kettle and we would take all day taking turns adding wood and stirring to make large batches of apple butter. It was a family affair like making home made ice cream or butchering or rendering lard used to be.
> Looks good.
> Cheers
> gww


GWW and GregV:

I enjoyed reading this exchange- I too grew up doing these things and it seems as though we may have more now, I am not sure we are any better off...

FWIW- I am envious of your bounty. I've got an orchard started but it is a disaster. I suppose I can just live vicariously through your success. Good work!

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GWW and GregV:
> .... I've got an orchard started but it is a disaster. I suppose I can just live vicariously through your success. Good work!
> 
> Russ


No worries.
An orchard is a long-game, not a quick steal.
Be patient and you will be fine.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> No worries.
> An orchard is a long-game, not a quick steal.
> Be patient and you will be fine.


Thanks GregV. As Freddie Mercury sang, "I want it all and I want it now."

Being facetious of course- I really am glad to see your abundance. That is quite an accomplishment.

Russ


----------



## gww

russ
Orchards are above my pay grade. My apple trees have never bloomed and one looks like it has now died. I got like five pears off of my two moonglow pear. My asian pears gave a lot of little suckers and this is the first year in a while that the animals have not cleaned it up right before people could eat them. My two plumb trees gave about 3 plumbs which amazes me cause my last plumb trees always did well. The peaches have gotten worse this year.

My last bunch of trees lasted about 18/20 years before I was able to kill the last of them and I never got apples of the apple trees then either.

Got grapes last year but disiese is taking them out this year.

My experience with orchards when young is that you get a bunch of bad years and a banner year every so often when you don't know how to take care of them.

Mine are a disaster and will stay a disaster. It is still neat to give the grand kids something off a tree every so often though.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

gww said:


> Mine are a disaster and will stay a disaster. It is still neat to give the grand kids something off a tree every so often though.
> Cheers
> gww


GWW:

Good post- it made me smile. What do they say about orchards? Something like, "You get 40 chances to get it right."

I imagine the one good year gives one hope to continue on. If nothing else, it is for me like beekeeping- a good excuse to be out enjoying and participating in a very small part of God's creation.

Good luck with your winter feeding program (or lack thereof). I am curious to hear how this turns out.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GWW:
> 
> Good post- it made me smile. What do they say about orchards? Something like, "You get 40 chances to get it right."......
> 
> Russ


Speaking of apples.
This is where I get my inspiration for maintaining a wide variety - one never knows which year will variety will produce and which will not (or even succumb to a brutal winter).
My favorite tree decided to rest this season OR the bloom did not get pollinated due to bad timing OR whatever - no apples on my Wealthy tree this year (first time ever).
So I hoard many varieties and am always looking out to add to my collection.

This is exactly why I will never follow a common advice to "propagate your best bees".
Let me tell you, you never really know what are your best bees and which particular trait will shine this particular season.
Any bee that made it into the next season is good enough to be propagated and maintained forward.
Better yet, spread your bees around far and wide, and they will come back to you, in time.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> So I hoard many varieties and am always looking out to add to my collection.
> 
> This is exactly why I will never follow a common advice to "propagate your best bees".
> Let me tell you, you never really know what are your best bees and which particular trait will shine this particular season.
> Any bee that made it into the next season is good enough to be propagated and maintained forward.
> Better yet, spread your bees around far and wide, and they will come back to you, in time.


Great corollary, GregV. This intuitively makes a lot of sense. The recent videos that MSL posted build a pretty strong case for just such an approach.


----------



## GregB

Went around checking my nucs, so to keep adding frames where needed.
Some of them building new wax really well (others - not).

Darn thing, I may have damaged one queen previously when marking her and now they are doing an emergency QC (I did drop her into the hive accidentally, but she looked OK post-event to me - but what do I know?).
Well, the less we muck with them, the better off they are.
For now assume down to 18 units.

A couple of queens I still can not find for the life of me - in those 4-frame nucs.
Eggs are present.
I think they are just like their feral grandmother - very runny and maybe jumping onto the walls at the first sense of "bear" getting to them.
Maybe I should quit looking for them and just leave them unmarked (for their own safety reasons).


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> I would argue keeping a wild type stock in its native area and in more or less its natural densities is a far cry from most beekeeping experiences, especially here in the *US with such a shallow Feral gene pool *and massive over stocking rates (compared to natural) in many areas


I kept thinking of this "shallow gene pool" idea.
As I said, the Russian Far East population can be called a "shallow gene pool" case due to similar imported origination as in the N. America.
This Far East population is doing very well for itself, despite being "shallow" and despite the common logic where it should be urgently treated OR else (by this logic the Far Eastern population should have died out many, many years ago - NOT the case as everyone knows).

And here you go...
T. Seeley responds to a similar question at 1:24 of the same said video (he refers to the same slide used earlier in the talk - only *three *maternal lines surviving in Arnot forest post-Varroa).
The perceived "shallow gene pool" maybe not such a big deal with the Honey bees.
In fact, it may not be as "shallow" as people think it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7CB8E7jKBc&t=4658s


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> For now assume down to 18 units.


18 out of 20 is still a great success rate. You still get an 'A' grade if you quit now :lookout:.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> And here you go...
> T. Seeley responds to a similar question at 1:24 of the same said video (he refers to the same slide used earlier in the talk - only *three *maternal lines surviving in Arnot forest post-Varroa).


I listened to this exchange and still have a hard time wrapping my mind around the concept. Specifically the mitochondrial DNA bit. As I understood it, he attributed the reality of stable genetic diversity to the continued mating with non-resistant drones and the concept of genetic recombination. Trying to square all of this with the idea of 'genetic depression' we hear bantered about relative to the reason we should not import outside bees. A lot to take in...


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> 18 out of 20 is still a great success rate. You still get an 'A' grade if you quit now :lookout:.


Well, the passing grade will be given at ~April 1st, 2020.
We are now into the 2019/2020 beekeeping cycle as we speak - it started ~July 1st (am using Mel D.'s calendar, which is accurate and convenient for me).
Will see if I learned anything from the 2018/2019 cycle.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I listened to this exchange and still have a hard time wrapping my mind around the concept. Specifically the mitochondrial DNA bit. As I understood it, he attributed the reality of stable genetic diversity to the continued mating with non-resistant drones and the concept of genetic recombination. Trying to square all of this with the idea of 'genetic depression' we hear bantered about relative to the reason we should not import outside bees. A lot to take in...


You know, granted even the most "bred" bees are only few layers away from the true wild bees - even mating with non-resistant drones may very well pull in good survival traits burred few layers down. All one needs to do - not be trying to save them at ALL costs and letting the unfit to die off. 

No need to get attached to individuals.
As with any wild/feral animal management, it is the population that is being managed, not individuals.

Hopefully, in about a month I will be in a position to renumber/reclassify my active units for the wintering program, and then we'll see who makes the cut by April 2020.
I have not a clue where and IF I will be getting my honey crop this season.
With to many bees on hand, there must be something to harvest for the year-end holidays, however.

Fun.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Will see if I learned anything from the 2018/2019 cycle.


Now THAT is important for all of us... good luck with your winter preps.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> No need to get attached to individuals.
> As with any wild/feral animal management, it is the population that is being managed, not individuals.


I think you are right here, GregV... And recognizing that we can only (partially) manage the population in our area with our meager management efforts.


----------



## GregB

Today I started pulling some honey from my hybrid hives (10 frame med boxes on the top).
I have to say - working by the Lang box is a NO-GO for me. 
HEAVY.
Good thing this is only a homesteading hobby.

For sure, I want the compact vertical hives - the honey box should only hold up to 6 nominal Lang med frames.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> For sure, I want the compact vertical hives - the honey box should only hold up to 6 nominal Lang med frames.


Sounds like you are moving inevitably toward Warre hives . There are quite a few things I like about the Warres I inherited, but one big negative (at least in terms of honey extraction) is the lack of frames. I see there are so-called Modified Warre Hives with frames out there that might strike a good balance if one wants the relatively light weight of the Warre-sized cavity with the ease of processing of the Langstroth.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Today I started pulling some honey from my hybrid hives (10 frame med boxes on the top).
> I have to say - working by the Lang box is a NO-GO for me.
> HEAVY.
> Good thing this is only a homesteading hobby.
> 
> For sure, I want the compact vertical hives - the honey box should only hold up to 6 nominal Lang med frames.


Just make 2 ports 6 frame each. if you ever want to "standardize" make the port able to put a 5 frame NUC on for build out and splitting. either way would offer some bennys.
I went to 8 frame a nice change.
the noticed difference was many of the production hives need the lid at head high or higher. if you have a stable stack and a ladder no worries.
A 6 frame would be really tall and less stability.
the only way I would consider a 6 frame super is on a 12 frame base. use 1/2 supers basically. If you went thru the trouble of building it, I would partition the 12 frame in half and 2 queen ready it. a super able , winter able, dual queen large 2 queen NUC. and run it Palmer style.
I am actually making some 10 frame split bases this winter to use the 5 frame NUC boxes I have. The 5 frame gear I played with this year was "quick" to swarm so for small increase, 4 or so of them could have rotating splits every week. I did one 3 way late june on a 5 over 5 and now have 3 nice little colony's that will be 20 frames by winter.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> .....
> the noticed difference was many of the production hives need the lid at head high or higher. if you have a stable stack and a ladder no worries.
> A 6 frame would be really tall and less stability.......


GG, I like LJ's approach in terms of:
- stack stability (wider footprint)
- winter configuration - narrow chimney setup AND the double walls
- summer configuration - open expansion to use the volume horizontally to the max AND keep the stack lower
- re-uses standard Land 10-frame boxes (which I have a pile of)

This will require 1)follower boards and 2)short-frame that goes the short way - the only strategic change.
Hehe... 
This is my standard frame dimension that I practice already and the follower boards I already use as well (decided to mod them to make them tighter going forward)

Here:
https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...Warre-Hive-right-for-me&p=1717091#post1717091


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ... but one big negative (at least in terms of honey extraction) is the lack of frames....


The lack of frames is my norm anyway as I dislike the Lang frames and use my own dimensions.
This season I run 3 hybrid hives as a trial and also due to lack of custom frames/time to make them/unclear vision yet.
As in here:








Based on the experience so far and thinking forward, I want to switch to ALL frames of my dimension (15 inch top bar).

Lack of frames is really only one-time problem to be handled once and forgotten.


----------



## GregB

Now is a good time to try something different for those who don't mind "thinking out of the box" (which pretty much should become the norm if things to become any better on the globe).

Being a "foodie" type, I will again remind of the pressed drone brood product.
Now is a good time to go around, remove the drone brood still present and not really needed anymore (and maybe kill few mites along the way).
Use it to your advantage as an excellent food item (as humans would do for the last few millions years without even thinking - until the late societal norms washed the brains wrong way).

50/50 - honey/pressed drone brood.
Stored and consumed directly from the freezer since it stays liquid.
Refrigerator is OK too, per what I read.
Even room temp is OK, but need to err on adding more honey to it (the preserving agent).
I just had some on my pancakes this morning - same as honey usage (and is delicious with some "nutty" taste to it, and a great supplement of protein and much more).

My quick press results of a couple of nights ago (took out some volunteer honey/drone combs placed wrongly).
Whatever left after the process - mix of wax/honey/crushed brood (and the first rinse of the utensils - went directly to the closest nucs in my backyard - bees LOVE this stuff too).
I need more of this stuff put away ASAP while still possible.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Here:
> https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...Warre-Hive-right-for-me&p=1717091#post1717091


Now that's a good idea, GregV. Throw some insulation in the interstitial space and you would have a hive assembly that would give CLong's a run for their money. Looks like a good way to re-purpose a Langstroth box in a way that would allow you to go back if your goals change.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Based on the experience so far and thinking forward, I want to switch to ALL frames of my dimension (15 inch top bar).
> 
> Lack of frames is really only one-time problem to be handled once and forgotten.


Neat cut-away. Did you draft that yourself? My thoughts on frames relative to Warre-style management relate to: 

1. Extraction- which may or may not be an issue depending upon what and how you plan to take from the colony.

2. Continuous comb- the idea of having to cut boxes apart prior to removal does not appeal to me, but I can see how this might confer survival benefit.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Being a "foodie" type, I will again remind of the pressed drone brood product.


GregV:

I've read where you have mentioned this in passing before, but this is the first time I recall you describing what you are doing with the larvae.

It piqued my interest enough to look it up on the internet- have you tried fried?

https://beeinformed.org/2019/02/22/fried-drone-brood-a-healthy-and-savory-snack/


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> I've read where you have mentioned this in passing before, but this is the first time I recall you describing what you are doing with the larvae.
> 
> It piqued my interest enough to look it up on the internet- have you tried fried?
> 
> https://beeinformed.org/2019/02/22/fried-drone-brood-a-healthy-and-savory-snack/


I have seen the drone-snacks.
But prefer the pressing as a more efficient processing production method and resulting in store-able product (prep now/use later as needed).
AND I could mix it into appropriate foods without it being disagreeable to the family (baking recipes and such). 
But straight is the healthiest as the most beneficial, of course. 
Pressed drone is rapidly becoming a staple in the Eastern Euro as we speak (fetching a good revenue for the beeks too).
US crowd is behind on that. 
Well...


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Neat cut-away. Did you draft that yourself? My thoughts on frames relative to Warre-style management relate to:
> 
> 1. Extraction- which may or may not be an issue depending upon what and how you plan to take from the colony.
> 
> 2. Continuous comb- the idea of having to cut boxes apart prior to removal does not appeal to me, but I can see how this might confer survival benefit.


I stole the pic elsewhere.
Extraction - a non-issue; the equipment should just handle frames with 15-inch bars (in addition to 19-inch bars).
No-need to cut boxes apart... 
Small format hive operators don't cut boxes (same as Lang operators don't cut boxes).
More on that later.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Now that's a good idea, GregV. Throw some insulation in the interstitial space and you would have a hive assembly that would give CLong's a run for their money. Looks like a good way to re-purpose a Langstroth box in a way that would allow you to go back if your goals change.


Right, LJ's pics represent a very good idea - internal enclosure is not by default the same as external enclosure (even though most people see that way).
Not exactly a new idea to me, but LJ has great pics and a demo, as usually.
Stability of the stack is very important to me (being a mobile bee-warrior). 
Overly small stack footprint results in loss of stack stability (not good in my book).
But, the box-inside-box (again) cuts it both ways (allowing for dynamic internal volume changes while the external hive dimension are more static).


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> But, the box-inside-box (again) cuts it both ways (allowing for dynamic internal volume changes while the external hive dimension are more static).


Good stuff, GregV. I look forward to hearing how your experiments with modified top bar and internal volumes turn out. There is definitely a lot one could tinker with when not constrained to a particular frame and/or box profile.

I am trying to work up the nerve for some 'drone spread' though I am quite confident I have eaten much worse...


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Good stuff, GregV. I look forward to hearing how your experiments with modified top bar and internal volumes turn out. There is definitely a lot one could tinker with when not constrained to a particular frame and/or box profile.
> 
> I am trying to work up the nerve for some 'drone spread' though I am quite confident I have eaten much worse...


same here I am now pondering a dual NUC box with the extra room on the outside.
Russ try to mix it with crunchy peanut butter, PB & Drone, then the crunches are less noticeable


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ....I am trying to work up the nerve for some 'drone spread' though I am quite confident I have eaten much worse...


Give it a try.
Regular hotdogs from a grocery store are "much worse".
I am sure you had some; me too - recently.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Regular hotdogs from a grocery store are "much worse".


Great analogy- pretty easy to justify eating almost anything if you'll eat a hot dog... I'll have to make some PB + Drone as GG suggests.


----------



## GregB

Remember these idiots from the last winter?








So, I am really fed up with these stupid bees and I want them dead.
Seriously...
I want this worthless junk dead.
They move around like zombies; they are, in fact, zombie bees.

But NOT before they do something good for me, like pay the overdue rent, for a change.
They have been living in my equipment for a year now - never paid the rent yet.
Just a little honey would not hurt before this summer is over.

Here is a full hive of zombie bees (and mites!!! the darn mites are everywhere, I got few to play with on my kitchen table - seriously).
These zombie bees are wasting the little time I have and the precious equipment I am really hurting for.
They don't even have drone brood when I wanted to harvest some yesterday.
All they have is lots and lots of worker brood - wall to wall (the super in the picture is full of brood too).
And they even have chalk brood (I have never seen it before - I now have).

So now, today is August 18th and Goldenrod flow is in front of us.
This is my last chance to get something out of these deadbeats.
I want these zombies to get me just a little Goldenrod honey to repay me, before they die (hopefully, they die quickly too, so to leave the honey to me, not eat it - say 4-8 weeks).

While I was slapping together a hive today to drop an early split into (....whole another story - turned out I was too late....), I came up with this plan:

- having a spare trap hive set nearby the zombie hive, I want to shake ALL zombie bees into it 
...(my goal is to really get the queen without looking for it and the young bees with her).

- I want to give these young bees (and the queen somewhere there) few blank frames and frame of little food and I will feed them with sugar
...(my goal is to get these young bees to build me some comb - if I get anything from them, that would be good)

- I presume within few hours/next day the zombie hive will be full of returned forager bees and full of brood still there (and no more laying queen).

- I will just take all the honey and pollen, broodless frames I find in the zombie hive to myself (while doing this shake up)

- for the last weeks of the summer, I want the zombies finally to stop raising those hordes of brood and focus on getting at least some honey put up

- don't really care what happens to them after the flow is done and I harvest what I can (theoretically, in 6-8 weeks they should just "abscond" as often described); 
- I do care to have this good hive equipment re-allocated to some good start-up for the winter (not really worried of the chalk brood infection present in it since the fungus is wide-spread anyway; no clue why would they develop a case mid-summer anyway - that sort of a bee, I guess)

This is sorta a cut-back split procedure I guess I wanna do.

Anyone stop me from doing this idiocy?
Suggest something better to get the same result?

To be sure - I will not spend anymore time and effort on these bees.
I just want the maximum possible proceeds from the workforce while they are still flying and before they just drop dead (which they will and I want to terminate this line and move on).

PS: there is also a 5-frame nuc of this line, I made from the zombies few weeks ago - I also just want terminated - exact same behavior - eat and brood (like pigs of sorts)
when doing the shake up, I will also shake the nuc into the same empty hive (mixing the bees and letting those queens to fight it out) and will drop the nuc brood into the zombie hive (more zombie brood)


----------



## GregB

I think I came up with a change to this plan.
I will shake up the bees into an empty log trap-hive and get it primed and hopefully filled with the combs by live bees.
That should be useful and fun.
Both.

Technically, I will use a ramp with a tarp over it (similar to Taranov's) and will dump the zombies onto it.
The log hive will be set in place of the current nuc (so the nuc bees will return to the spot due to the current orientation).
The dumped bees should climb into the hive (especially since I will do it at the end of the light day).
The foraging age zombies should return to their zombie home.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> I think I came up with a change to this plan.
> I will shake up the bees into an empty log trap-hive and get it primed and hopefully filled with the combs by live bees.
> That should be useful and fun.
> Both.
> 
> Technically, I will use a ramp with a tarp over it (similar to Taranov's) and will dump the zombies onto it.
> The log hive will be set in place of the current nuc (so the nuc bees will return to the spot due to the current orientation).
> The dumped bees should climb into the hive (especially since I will do it at the end of the light day).
> The foraging age zombies should return to their zombie home.


interesting plan, Greg Are you convinced the Zombees do not have something to be left in the combs to Zombeefy the next bees? My only concern is if the funny thing they do are a Virus that can be left in comb..I had some funny bees this year as well, 2 hives, I shook in soapy water and burned the combs with brood and flamed the inside of the hive components. Carry on with caution.
GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> interesting plan, Greg Are you convinced the Zombees do not have something to be left in the combs to Zombeefy the next bees? My only concern is if the funny thing they do are a Virus that can be left in comb..I had some funny bees this year as well, 2 hives, I shook in soapy water and burned the combs with brood and flamed the inside of the hive components. Carry on with caution.
> GG


GG, 

Pretty sure, these are just the kind of the bees these are (a product of abnormally early mating in later April with the early season imported almond drones).
Seen this before in captured commercial Italian-like bees (all predictably died out every single time).
I don't want to even spend the time and a better material to re-queen these zombies.

Since they overwintered, I decided to give them a chance - well, it seems the result turned out not great.

They just move around as-if "sleepy" and usually are sold to the beginner beeks as "easy to manage" bees.

In fact, one of my new "better" start-ups shows similar behavior too - sleepy, zombie bees.
They kinda move around lazily and mostly ignore what is going on around them.
The darn queen probably came from a commercial drone mating.
Not liking it already.

Pretty sure by now, if the bees appear runny and perky - they will probably still be with me the next spring.
If they pay attention to my messing with them and require me to pay attention and be ready - this is a good sign.

Yes - I know - many beeks hate runny and jumpy bees because they are "hard to manage" and need you to dress up and have smoke ready, etc; 
Well, these happen to be the usual survivors, like or not.

So, yes, thinking out the details how I am going to execute the log population.
I have done the ramp swarm populations many times before, with regular Dadant hives.
Well, those were the true, homeless swarms and they just go right in - up and up the ramp.
Here it will be a totally new improvisation for me (fortunately, not too afraid of these zombies; with some other bees - I might ditch this idea). 
Hopefully, will pull it off and get some lemonade of these lemons.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> ......
> I had some funny bees this year as well, 2 hives, I shook in soapy water and burned the combs with brood and flamed the inside of the hive components. Carry on with caution.
> GG


Were these very clearly sick bees?
So sick you chose to destroy them?

I know mine are full of mites and are pretty much doomed.
But if I squeeze few frames of usable honey out of these and also get the log hive well primed for next season, before they croak, it would be good.
Just need to watch them and not allow robbing in fall (probably put the preventive screen them then OR actually destroy them when already crashing).

Yes, there is some random chalk brood that I can see; not too concerned.
DWV is there too - also not concerned (the mite related).


----------



## Gray Goose

Were these very clearly sick bees?
So sick you chose to destroy them?

I gave then 2 different cells and 1 queen, 3 attempts at requeening, they had some small amount of scattered Brood, the queens ended up gone, some dead brood, just seemed in a downward spiral, Somewhat sure the dead brood (purple eye stage, drones) died to to lack of cluster size but just decided to pull the trigger on , being done with them, like you are Greg on the Zombees. I had maybe 20 comb to burn and careful inspection showed 1/2 of these to be culls. I did use them last year and had a dead out. I do some markings to know where they can from, So all in all out 10 good combs and these 2 would not make the winter any way , and I was concerned about spreading, Looked a bit like CPV, greasy looking bees, with laying worker, and bees fighting at the entrance. Too many non desirable things and just wanting it to not spread.


----------



## msl

welp... dives home my point that "survived a winter TF" doesn't make it breeding stock..

if you want honey i say pinch the queen, 8 days later no more open brood, no more drain of resources and frees up a bunch bees to forage. it costs you about 3 pounds of honey a deep frame to feed a larvae to the capping stage. so you should see some returns quickly... cant find her? just run the hive threw a shaker box 
From there pinch off all the queen cells and let the hive back fill with honey,pollen, and drone brood(form laying workers).. All items you like to harvest. take from them till there toast (don't forget a robbing screen ) and put them down when there is noting left.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> welp... dives home my point that "survived a winter TF" doesn't make it breeding stock..
> 
> if you want honey i say pinch the queen, 8 days later no more open brood, no more drain of resources and frees up a bunch bees to forage. it costs you about 3 pounds of honey a deep frame to feed a larvae to the capping stage. so you should see some returns quickly... cant find her? just run the hive threw a shaker box
> From there pinch off all the queen cells and let the hive back fill with honey,pollen, and drone brood(form laying workers).. All items you like to harvest. take from them till there toast (don't forget a robbing screen ) and put them down when there is noting left.


Your point of "survived a winter TF" directed to where?
Not relevant to my zombies at all.

I have several lines, MSL, as I outlined several times.

Two lines are worthwhile and will be heading into the third winter.
Mine main splitting effort -10-15 units for the winter.

Beyond those I got two more wintered lines - one winter - the zombies (just got butchered) and some Carni-like line I like (three units will go into the second winter).

Additionally, this summer I got two fresh swarms in testing - a good one (Carni-like and made some honey - fingers crossed for them) and a bad one (zombie-like too - eaters and brooders - will give them a chance).

The zombie bees by accident wintered one winter and I gave them this chance.
Did not work out.
Too bad.

Home, sweet home - the nuc replacement - the log has nothing but for blank frames and a little black combs.
The nuc foragers better get to work - should be able to feed themselves.








By tomorrow evening I anticipate this ramp will clear out.
Some will get into the log and get busy doing stuff.
Some queen should get in there.
Others will fly back to the main zombie hive.

I will take the ramp away and shake down the stragglers.
Both queen (from the nuc and from the "mother ship") should be somewhere on the ramp.
Did pretty good shaking them and brushed off for a good measure.
Not looking. Don't care.

All frames from the zombie nuc returned to the "mother ship".








Forager zombies returning home:








Speaking of "pinching a queen" - 3-4 times now tried to find the "mother ship" queen so to mark - no luck.
No way I am digging through that mess at 7 o'clock at night and bees trying to kill me.
Even zombies get pissed at such treatment, because this treatment is brutal; too bad.
Done my time looking for the zombie queen.

I am done with these bees - ain't gotten no time for them.
All I got tonight from the zombies - two honey frames.
That's all they got for me.
Bigger fish are to be handled.

My losses - one sting to an ankle.
Taping is a great idea when stomping in the dark and bees are everywhere.


----------



## msl

> Your point of "survived a winter TF" directed to where


general statement on stock selection (that I harp on a lot ), not aimed at you, but this line as a great example
There are those that would have split them 4 ways comes spring as they were "survivors", and then again mid summer.. and a lot of them would make the 2nd winter do to all the spliting... Then on the 3rd winter they would have a huge crash when the hives went full sized, and they would rebuild as they had plenty of nucs split out... and then history repeats its self. 
your realizing they are junk and removeing them so they don't pollute your areas geen pool.

You seem to have taken my post as combative... not at all, I am a big fan of you stepping up and managing the bees to give you your rent 
if you recall the advice I gave in the opening page of this thread


msl said:


> those weaklings are the ones that need to go, just like the skep keeper of old. shake them out, take what they got, move on.


your doing just that, not waiting for nature to deside and hoping for leftovers, but using your skill as a beekeeper to say, "this hive won't make spring, what is the best use I can make of them?"

on a side note, I am finding I like bees that eat a little more and raise a little more brood over the winter than i "think" they should. 
an early brood rearing spurt means the old bees need to live less long and they come out of winter better..


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> *general statement on stock selection (that I harp on a lot ), not aimed at you. *
> There are those that would have split them 4 ways comes spring as they were "survivors", and then again mid summer.. and a lot of them would make the 2nd winter do to all the spliting... Then on the 3rd winter they would have a huge crash when the hives went full sized, and they would rebuild as they had plenty of nucs split out... and then history repeats its self.
> your realizing they are junk and removeing them so they don't pollute your areas geen pool.


Totally agree.
Even my survivors are not really TF.
Like I harp - have to have a population.
Do I have a population? 
No.



> You seem to have taken my post as combative...


All good MSL.
Honestly, hard to keep in mind who has what and when and where and what happened.
I don't even try to remember.

Good news, I am fortunate to NOT be panicking over every single hive.
Heck, once you are over ten, no need to be afraid to butcher few for the experience.
A good place to be.

PS: to that point - 


> While I was slapping together a hive today to drop an early split into (....whole another story - turned out I was too late....)


Bad news - turned out both my early June splits swarmed on me.
Well, I am a busy single parent this summer (Moms is way) and don't have equipment and time for all my bees.
Those early splits trivially ran out of room and their patience ran out on me (only checking them once per month).
With enough equipment I could have gotten a little honey from them too.
Oh well.

On the positive side - that's Darwinian beekeeping!
I hope those queens found good homes not too far from me and will send out some drones next summer.
But also, July/August queens maybe a better quality than the June queens.
So I read.
Fingers crossed.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> on a side note, I am finding I like bees that eat a little more and raise a little more brood over the winter than i "think" they should.
> an early brood rearing spurt means the old bees need to live less long and they come out of winter better..


My best queen this season exactly like this - exploded in April/May and had I to urgently split up (see my June splits above - these were nothing but counter-swarming).
Then in July I did another round of splits from her via a fly-back - the actual planned ones so to raise July start-ups.
She does pump lots of brood BUT also they are bringing rent (unlike the zombies).


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> ...pinch off all the queen cells and let the hive back fill with honey,pollen, *and drone brood (form laying workers).*. .


A very good point, btw.
I should do exactly that.
The laying workers; if they live that long.


----------



## BigBlackBirds

GregV said:


> GG,
> 
> Pretty sure, these are just the kind of the bees these are (a product of abnormally early mating in later April with the early season imported almond drones).
> Seen this before in captured commercial Italian-like bees (all predictably died out every single time).
> I don't want to even spend the time and a better material to re-queen these zombies.
> 
> Since they overwintered, I decided to give them a chance - well, it seems the result turned out not great.
> 
> They just move around as-if "sleepy" and usually are sold to the beginner beeks as "easy to manage" bees.
> 
> In fact, one of my new "better" start-ups shows similar behavior too - sleepy, zombie bees.
> They kinda move around lazily and mostly ignore what is going on around them.
> The darn queen probably came from a commercial drone mating.
> Not liking it already.
> 
> Pretty sure by now, if the bees appear runny and perky - they will probably still be with me the next spring.
> If they pay attention to my messing with them and require me to pay attention and be ready - this is a good sign.
> 
> Yes - I know - many beeks hate runny and jumpy bees because they are "hard to manage" and need you to dress up and have smoke ready, etc;
> Well, these happen to be the usual survivors, like or not.
> 
> So, yes, thinking out the details how I am going to execute the log population.
> I have done the ramp swarm populations many times before, with regular Dadant hives.
> Well, those were the true, homeless swarms and they just go right in - up and up the ramp.
> Here it will be a totally new improvisation for me (fortunately, not too afraid of these zombies; with some other bees - I might ditch this idea).
> Hopefully, will pull it off and get some lemonade of these lemons.


these just sound to be like a colony exhibiting partial genes from a pretty typical style italian/commercial bee. relatively calm. tons of brood. heavy mite load issues compounded with large brood nest. and prone to chalk which is common in the large pollination or overwintering areas---pull a bunch of bees off the west coast almonds or east coast berries or from southern wintering areas and chalk is the norm. 

i would have dumped them to the ground a long time ago but i don't need to worry about them drawing comb or making honey either. sounds like you will get to the same end result at some point in your plan


----------



## BigBlackBirds

GregV said:


> Totally agree.
> Even my survivors are not really TF.
> Like I harp - have to have a population.
> Do I have a population?
> No.
> 
> 
> All good MSL.
> Honestly, hard to keep in mind who has what and when and where and what happened.
> I don't even try to remember.
> 
> Good news, I am fortunate to NOT be panicking over every single hive.
> Heck, once you are over ten, no need to be afraid to butcher few for the experience.
> A good place to be.
> 
> PS: to that point -
> 
> 
> Bad news - turned out both my early June splits swarmed on me.
> Well, I am a busy single parent this summer (Moms is way) and don't have equipment and time for all my bees.
> Those early splits trivially ran out of room and their patience ran out on me (only checking them once per month).
> With enough equipment I could have gotten a little honey from them too.
> Oh well.
> 
> On the positive side - that's Darwinian beekeeping!
> I hope those queens found good homes not too far from me and will send out some drones next summer.
> But also, July/August queens maybe a better quality than the June queens.
> So I read.
> Fingers crossed.


GregV--just reading thru stuff and catching up lately. been on vacation and busy pulling off the honey crop but thinking ahead to winter now. I'll add my two cents that queen quality relative to time of year when they mated may be very location specific. When people say they are getting better quality queens at a certain time ask them what that actually translates to for them---is it wintering success, spring build up, honey production, etc, etc. 

Ive raised queens in this state for something like 20 plus years now and for a part of that beekeeping was family business. In general I would never aim to keep a high percentage of early mated or late mated queens in my operation. I always have and will most likely continue to have some just because that is the way it shakes out but here is what I have seen: 1) queens mated here before mid June are a gamble. some are really good but a huge percentage are negatively impacted by weather. 2) queens mated much beyond the 1st of August are a step below those mated prior to mid June. 3) If i had absolute control, i'd want everything mated between June 15th and July 15th

Why--if I stack colonies (say a 150 minimum) up against each other in basically same configurations, by the time we go into end of season most of the early and late will have failed to keep same pace as the middle season queens. #2) there will be virtually no difference in overwintering success but come spring there will be a difference in failures and supercedures with the early and late once again fairing worse. BUT the biggest issue will be if you keep any of those overwintered queens into the summer---the mid season queens will significantly outperform the others when it comes to production. AND it won't even be close race at least for me. 

Now what others experience will most likely be different around the country but I see lots of broad sweeping statements being made in many different groups and online about how great late queens are. Yet when I press most of these people they only say meaningless stuff like how much late queens take off laying,etc. In fact, the vast majority of people touting late queens are selling them in fall or come spring in nucs and never actually keep enough colonies to have significant lines to select from regarding any performance indicators other than whether they made it thru the winter which is hardly any test at all.


----------



## GregB

BigBlackBirds said:


> .... sounds like you will get to the same end result at some point in your plan


Yep, BBB.
The process of butchering started last night.
I will run them into ground and, in the process, hoping to extract something useful still of them.

On my way to work, was thinking how to really use these zombie bees (they bring these zombie packages every March/April to my area - the zombies just keep coming).
I suspect I have a couple more of these on my hand - due to the open mating and swarm trapping.
It maybe, in fact, a good approach to use these bees for drone brood generation and harvest (and ultimately terminating):
- letting them to build up
- making them queen-less 
- taking advantage of the laying workers
- letting them fade at the season end


----------



## BigBlackBirds

GregV said:


> Yep, BBB.
> The process of butchering started last night.
> I will run them into ground and, in the process, hoping to extract something useful still of them.
> 
> On my way to work, was thinking how to really use these zombie bees (they bring these zombie packages every March/April to my area - the zombies just keep coming).
> I suspect I have a couple more of these on my hand - due to the open mating and swarm trapping.
> It maybe, in fact, a good approach to use these bees for drone brood generation and harvest (and ultimately terminating):
> - letting them to build up
> - making them queen-less
> - taking advantage of the laying workers
> - letting them fade at the season end


Often that style of bee is really good at drawing out comb. You can never have too much comb lol I'm surprised they didnt make a good honey crop. Generally that is what they have been selected for but it could be timing also. I remember hauling bees back from florida 25+ years ago and often those colonies had such stinking large clusters that they would consume as much as collect. Can recall them going into blueberries in double deeps and coming out with full medium on top. Then we would hit a dearth in early June that sorta lasted until the main basswood flow at end of month early July and those colonies would have consumed the entire medium and be on verge of starving. Awww the joys of bees that have zero regulation to environment.


----------



## GregB

BigBlackBirds said:


> GregV--just reading thru stuff and catching up lately. .....................


I just watched a video presentation recently which stated (non-English; I would have posted other-wise):
- it was a queen breeder and I assume he knew his stuff
- the most prolific time in the queens life is 7-8 months after she mated - he so stated
- he stated - if you do the math, you see that to have the queen starting the explosive laying in about March/April, you want your queen mated at end of July/beginning of August.
- he stated - early queen mating (May/June) is not really that desirable but what people conventionally want; he suggested to actually think of later summer queens as more desirable

Now - I don't particularly care of this queen breeder talks.
What I care is - availability of my own drones.
If my own drones are NOT in the mix yet, I don't really care of my virgins be mating with some zombie drones and have no contribution of my own.
I have these two lines I am trying to sustain and my game is - trying to have these lines to pollinate each other.
At least one of the lines is a late drone generator and peaking in July with the drone output.
Basically, when both lines are pumping the best drone out - this is the time I want my virgins to be flying too.
For me July turns out to be the prime mating time so far (per my drone availability).


----------



## GregB

BigBlackBirds said:


> Often that style of bee is really good at drawing out comb. ...... Awww the joys of bees that have zero regulation to environment.


These bees are awful at everything, but brood pumping.
I also pulled out blank frames - placed with them many weeks ago - not even started (I was hurting for frames elsewhere - so I was swearing when I found blank frames I really could use elsewhere).
They are just completely out the environment. 
Unsure WHAT is there expected environment.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Yep, BBB.
> The process of butchering started last night.
> I will run them into ground and, in the process, hoping to extract something useful still of them.
> 
> On my way to work, was thinking how to really use these zombie bees (they bring these zombie packages every March/April to my area - the zombies just keep coming).
> I suspect I have a couple more of these on my hand - due to the open mating and swarm trapping.
> It maybe, in fact, a good approach to use these bees for drone brood generation and harvest (and ultimately terminating):
> - letting them to build up
> - making them queen-less
> - taking advantage of the laying workers
> - letting them fade at the season end


Greg,
make your queens when you are ready and the timing is perfect in your mind. use the Zombees as fodder, give each new queen a frame or 2, as she starts laying her bees will be the final force in the fall, but if they brood up they are likely good nurse bees and you have the comb and stores to add in with the new queen. My Worst couple hives are often fodder for when I need some bees to try out a cell or new queen. Create queens from your good lines , use the frames of bees to make the NUCs up from your worst lines. Swarms I catch durring the time the migration folks are here are used that way. cought 5 swarms this year only have 1 queen left from the whole thing. keep track in case the queen cell fails that the next one is a Zombee queen.
GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Greg,
> make your queens when you are ready and the timing is perfect in your mind. use the Zombees as fodder, give each new queen a frame or 2, as she starts laying her bees will be the final force in the fall, but if they brood up they are likely good nurse bees and you have the comb and stores to add in with the new queen. My Worst couple hives are often fodder for when I need some bees to try out a cell or new queen. Create queens from your good lines , use the frames of bees to make the NUCs up from your worst lines. Swarms I catch durring the time the migration folks are here are used that way. cought 5 swarms this year only have 1 queen left from the whole thing. keep track in case the queen cell fails that the next one is a Zombee queen.
> GG


GG, your suggestion is a generally good idea.

But....
Over the three summers now I learned my lesson against using the "zombies" as brood and bee resources.
I killed two good feral/TF queens from a good friend by zombies.
I also killed some good swarms by zombies.
Last summer I killed two Russian queens from another friend by zombies.
In all these cases I infected the target colony by mites by using brood frames and bees taken from the zombie hives (I thought I was smart to be using free swarms as my resources - well, it turned otherwise).

My conclusion - I will never use the "zombies" again as brood resources (ONLY food resources from the zombies are acceptable for me).
The zombies are very dangerous horizontal mite vectors because they have ZERO mite resistance and typically always have mites.
Mites just explode if placed into the zombie bee hive.
A zombie swarm is pretty much to be assumed mite-infected.

So far no good queen could turn things around when placed with the zombie bees (which is pretty much always as for me).

I wasted too much good material and time around these zombie bees.
They should be just used for self-contained projects as best as possible - then terminated, so the cancer does not spread.

So, I now days resist any bee/brood frame transitions across the hives if I can only help it (exceptions below).
I will feed and I will steal food frames, but I will NOT move brood and bees around until the last resort.

The only way I will transfer a brood frame/bees - I will do it in vertical fashion (mother hive to a nuc - the same bees and mites) OR in horizontal fashion (nuc to a nuc IF they originate from the same mother hive - the same bees and mites). So, basically, I will transfer bees/brood between only closely related bees (the same line).

This is to minimize horizontal mite transfers between unrelated bees.
Too many good bees killed already by my own hands.


PS: as far as zombie bees - I don't care, I will mix and match them at will - before running them into the ground - pretty sure this is a good way to deal with them;
basically what I did last night - really, this was a mental hurdle I overstepped with this bees - got tired of giving chances
should be easier now to butcher more if I decide so


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> I just watched a video presentation recently which stated (non-English; I would have posted other-wise):
> - it was a queen breeder and I assume he knew his stuff
> - the most prolific time in the queens life is 7-8 months after she mated - he so stated
> - he stated - if you do the math, you see that to have the queen starting the explosive laying in about March/April, you want your queen mated at end of July/beginning of August.
> - he stated - early queen mating (May/June) is not really that desirable but what people conventionally want; he suggested to actually think of later summer queens as more desirable
> 
> Now - I don't particularly care of this queen breeder talks.
> What I care is - availability of my own drones.
> If my own drones are NOT in the mix yet, I don't really care of my virgins be mating with some zombie drones and have no contribution of my own.
> I have these two lines I am trying to sustain and my game is - trying to have these lines to pollinate each other.
> At least one of the lines is a late drone generator and peaking in July with the drone output.
> Basically, when both lines are pumping the best drone out - this is the time I want my virgins to be flying too.
> For me July turns out to be the prime mating time so far (per my drone availability).


So I guess Greg the data is in the eye of the beholder. I would read it this way. His queens in his Apairy the way he does it burn out in 7-8 months. If the Queen cannot be multi year, I would not pay money for it. My some what empirical observation is first summer make thy nest , next year at 1.2 to 1.6 years old , big production year, make bigger nest. Following year 2.2 to 2.6 years old ramp up swarm out, leave a nest and stores to be requeened and make it farther. Most of the old books say 3 to 7 years for a queen. I have yet to get a package queen to winter in the last 4 years. I think IMO the issues lie with genetics, food quality, drone quality ( first 2 affect this one as well), timing. In food quality is the "pollutants" found in fields gardens, and water. You have the type of bee the locality the Quality of forage. I really think we are having bees like horses, feed when necessary and every farm can have some. It is not that way in nature, the best areas can support bees the rest cannot, we see it as early failed queen , needing to feed, needing medicate, etc.
GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> So I guess Greg the data is in the eye of the beholder. *I would read it this way. His queens in his Apairy the way he does it burn out in 7-8 months. * If the Queen cannot be multi year, I would not pay money for it. My some what empirical observation is first summer make thy nest , next year at 1.2 to 1.6 years old , big production year, make bigger nest. Following year 2.2 to 2.6 years old ramp up swarm out, leave a nest and stores to be requeened and make it farther. Most of the old books say 3 to 7 years for a queen. I have yet to get a package queen to winter in the last 4 years. I think IMO the issues lie with genetics, food quality, drone quality ( first 2 affect this one as well), timing. In food quality is the "pollutants" found in fields gardens, and water. You have the type of bee the locality the Quality of forage. I really think we are having bees like horses, feed when necessary and every farm can have some. It is not that way in nature, the best areas can support bees the rest cannot, we see it as early failed queen , needing to feed, needing medicate, etc.
> GG


GG, Exactly.
It was a commercial queen breeder talking to commercial honey producers.
End of story.

IF a queen with me survives 5-7 years without chemicals and through all possible winters - I WANT that queen no matter how old.
She can lay 100% drone, I will keep her.

You know what I mean.


----------



## Gray Goose

concur on mixing brood frames, Greg, once bitten twice shy. ya so purge them then, once you do that it will be easier next time.
I am mostly Mother to Daughter. I do put Q cells into dud hives to somewhat have a supercedure, it works a lot of the time.
but that is know good to suspect.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> GG, Exactly.
> It was a commercial queen breeder talking to commercial honey producers.
> End of story.
> 
> You know what I mean.


I have seen this here at meeting the "encouragement" to requeen each year for maximum production. Again the message is delivered by the middle men or queen breeders. I have no doubt that the "new" queen is going to lay more than the older queen in "many/most" cases, however the queen and the way she was raised is the fault. To know how to make better queens your self, just look at Michael Palmer and his starter, maxed out on resources, somewhat the same as a big full hive ready to swarm. 
Yep know what you mean.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV:

I enjoyed reading through the recent discussion you all had about 'zombie' bees. It was thought-provoking as it made me stop and think what should one do with a dead-end hive?

Obviously there are myriad things you could do depending upon the circumstances and the timing but the general take-away for me is at least think through what sort of short-term gain you might glean before you unceremoniously shake them out.

Hopefully you are able to achieve your objectives with your 'butchering'.

Thanks again for the post- good stuff.

Russ


----------



## GregB

First I want to award a copyright to Grey Goose on this cool new term - Zombees (new to me, anyhow).
This being said, I will start using the term "Zombees" because I like it.


So the Zombees at the log hive are progressing slowly but surely (still not completely entered and are partially hanging under the board).
I observed them entering the log and ventilating it; something gotta give, eventually.
I have no time for them now until maybe the weekend - will take the ramp away at that time.














More Zombees seem to be returning to the mother hive too - good - get your lazy butts busy already and start working.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> I enjoyed reading through the recent discussion you all had about 'zombie' bees. It was thought-provoking as it made me stop and think what should one do with a dead-end hive?
> ....
> 
> Thanks again for the post- good stuff.
> 
> Russ


Russ, I thought about it some more.

Being a chem-free bee-haver, still leaves me lots of options to manipulate the bees in any way I want - mechanically.
So, I thought - hmm..... forcing a late swarm (well - by shaking the bees out) is actually a valid way to force a brood break late in the season.
I know first hand that late swarm starting from zero (with feeding!) will totally rebuild and survive just fine.
Why is it important?
Because, say, I have good bees in all respects BUT the low mite resistance.
I want to preserve the line (say for honey production OR for good winter resistance OR to still give them a chance).
But I am also pretty sure they will perish by mites.
What am I to do?

Force a late artificial swarm just about now, just the way I am doing with the Zombies.

Shake the queen/young bees and force them into new equipment and force them rebuild anew from zero; leave everything behind - this is a swarm (feed - that's OK).
Leave the mite factory (the brood) behind and leave the old workforce behind and have them work themselves to death (queen-less) - generate as much resources as you can AND still preserve the line. 
Less than desirable? Maybe.
Does it make economic sense? Sure, does.

I have such bees right now that could be forced into the artificial swarm.
Have no time for that OR equipment push the swarm into - but I like the idea.
The Zombees are great for the experimentation, at least something good.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Less than desirable? Maybe.
> Does it make economic sense? Sure, does.


This makes sense to me, GregV. If nothing else, you get some return on your investment of time and resources from this colony and give them a fresh start... though it is hard in my mind to see where it goes from here- maybe they supersede and you get a more resistant profile? Maybe you requeen them next Spring?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> This makes sense to me, GregV. If nothing else, you get some return on your investment of time and resources from this colony and give them a fresh start... though it is hard in my mind to see where it goes from here- *maybe they supersede and you get a more resistant profile? Maybe you requeen them next Spring*?


Unsure.
Though, given last winter the winter-hardiness was a significant cause-of-death of me.
Just that alone is a justification to prop the line.
Remember - in my location there are two limiting factors - mite-hardiness AND winter-hardiness.
Both will kill the bees (in combination OR alone).
I have to keep playing two-dimensional game.

But wait, here is another good use-case....

In the past I have killed good queens by simply re-queening some Zombees on the spot.
The more correct way would be (in the retrospect):
- create an artificial shook swarm of the young Zombees; 
- give them a good queen; 
- start a new unit (relatively mite-free; brood-free --> mite factory-free) so that a new queen has better chances to turn things around and the support crew of the Zombees quickly dies off and is replaced (no pending brood).
- run the left-behind Zombee unit into the ground queen-less (for resource generation only).

My mistake (several times now) was that I would create a new unit with Zombee bees AND Zombee brood AND a good queen.
Failed every single time for me (took longer to purge the Zombees due to the pending brood AND mite-factory was working against the queen, the Zombee brood --> end result - the queen could never turn over the population before it was overrun by the mites).

So - the artificial shook swarm is a tool; but ONLY a tool.
The end goals are for you to envision and implement.


----------



## msl

to bee fair, sam comfort has had a Zombee tat for quite a while







The name is used as a tongue and cheek name for survivor stock, a bit of a dig at those who don't believe such things exist

"We have Russian-based bees from Kirk Webster and Andrew Munkres, Russian bees from Bob Brachmann and Charlie Harper, Carni-mixes from Michael Palmer, as well as survivor mutt stock from Zia Queen Bees, Olympic Wilderness Apiaries, and Tim McFarline in Benson, Vermont. We’ve mixed these with established NY wild colonies from removals, which are likely adapted Italian mixes. Basically we call them survivor mutts, or Zombees- ‘cause without treatments the bees are obviously dead but still flying around.”-Sam Comfort


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> to bee fair, sam comfort has had a Zombee tat for quite a while
> View attachment 50821
> 
> The name is used as a tongue and cheek name for survivor stock, a bit of a dig at those who don't believe such things exist
> 
> "We have Russian-based bees from Kirk Webster and Andrew Munkres, Russian bees from Bob Brachmann and Charlie Harper, Carni-mixes from Michael Palmer, as well as survivor mutt stock from Zia Queen Bees, Olympic Wilderness Apiaries, and Tim McFarline in Benson, Vermont. We’ve mixed these with established NY wild colonies from removals, which are likely adapted Italian mixes. Basically we call them survivor mutts, or Zombees- ‘cause without treatments the bees are obviously dead but still flying around.”-Sam Comfort


Oh, I was not even aware.

Well, we will keep our "Zombee" context confined to this thread only.
Not valid outside and completely opposite (bad Zombees) to the Sam Comfort's good Zombees.


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> The name is used as a tongue and cheek name for survivor stock, a bit of a dig at those who don't believe such things exist


How about that for irony- thanks for the humorous feedback, MSL.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> ......(and mites!!! the darn mites are everywhere, I got few to play with on my kitchen table - seriously).....


So yes, the mites.
The Zombees had very little drone brood, to my surprise.
I took it home anyway.
Here:








To my another surprise, I was going to press it .... and didn't.
This little patch of drone brood was full of mites.
I easily counted four or five, without much looking. 
Surely more were hiding in brood.
Some fell off into the spilled honey and were kicking in it.

So I picked a needle and started chasing one around.
This darn thing is very mobile and sensitive; hard to believe it is blind.








Guess what happened next...
Will answer later.

So, I keep this brood patch on my kitchen table.
The mites were fully live and active two days after I pulled them out.
They probably helped themselves to open brood cells to feed on them.
I forgot to check them yesterday.
Tonight will be the day four - need to check how they are doing - my little, tiny pets. 
Kinda fun to watch them.


----------



## Gray Goose

Guess what happened next...
Will answer later.

Greg how do they taste?
GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Guess what happened next...
> Will answer later.
> 
> Greg how do they taste?
> GG


Did not press.
And won't.
These crippy crollers kinda irked me.
Well, the brood must be fresh too - right out of the hive; then frozen/refrigerated.
Past expiration date now.


IF the Zombees will make few good slabs of the drone (not at all sure of these slackers), I will just press and not care then.

PS: but do guess - what happened next...


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> PS: but do guess - what happened next...


New weight loss sensation!!! Attach these little friendly pals to your abdominal fat body and watch the excess poundage just disappear, like magic!

GregV, your gonna make millions on the weight-loss circuit.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> New weight loss sensation!!! Attach these little friendly pals to your abdominal fat body and watch the excess poundage just disappear, like magic!
> 
> *GregV, your gonna make millions on the weight-loss circuit.*


I should.
I am a bit tired of my desk job.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> New weight loss sensation!!! Attach these little friendly pals to your abdominal fat body and watch the excess poundage just disappear, like magic!
> 
> GregV, your gonna make millions on the weight-loss circuit.


AR1- Now that's funny... and kind of creepy when you begin to think of a mite the size of a rabbit attached to your midsection.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Did not press.
> And won't.
> These crippy crollers kinda irked me.
> Well, the brood must be fresh too - right out of the hive; then frozen/refrigerated.
> Past expiration date now.
> 
> 
> IF the Zombees will make few good slabs of the drone (not at all sure of these slackers), I will just press and not care then.
> 
> PS: but do guess - what happened next...


ok i'll guess a drone hatched and the mites all hopped on.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> ok i'll guess a drone hatched and the mites all hopped on.


Well, if you chase a mite with a needle, the mite then just hops onto the needle and grabs onto it.
The darn thing holds onto the needle like a magnet.
You virtually have to scrape if off.
Repeated the drill several times.

PS: 
This was what I was really suggesting - *mite will grab the needle and hold onto it.*
Repeatedly.
So then this means - the mite does not really go by smell (at least NOT only by smell) - it goes by something else - to be feeling a non-live, metal object moving nearby, grabbing and holding it.
It also reacts to a human finger the same way - mite is feeling its presence, turns to it, and is ready to hop onto it.
(need to photograph this when I have a helper).
I am pretty sure I am the first person to ever try and document it.
SO - here it is - just said it.
Hahaha.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Well, if you chase a mite with a needle, the mite then just hops onto the needle and grabs onto it.
> The darn thing holds onto the needle like a magnet.
> You virtually have to scrape if off.
> Repeated the drill several times.


Here are the pics.















The darn mites are still alive after 4 days.
I can only assume they feed on open brood.


----------



## GregB

Here mite is just running up and down the needle:







Some acrobat.


----------



## GregB

OK, so my first log hive is officially up and running.

The Zombees are bringing pollen and basically look to be normally working.
On weekend will peek inside.
I will improve the roof and will incorporate a slab of rigid foam to have better top insulation.
This is 30-40 litre pseudo-natural cavity with 3-5 inch solid walls.
Three (3) chunks ("supers") comprise the entire hive.
I assume they will propolis the "super" gaps.
4 Lang medium frames are hanging from the top as the guides AND to meet the "removable frame requirement" of WI.
Otherwise, they are free to improvise below the frames.
I can not really feed them due to the log hive limitations (this is really a short-term trap, by design).
I could put some dry sugar chunks over the top bars, but not much - the space is limited.
Will play it by the ear.
I might try the dry feeding, just to gain the experience and observe.

The log Zombees are largely on their own now and I assume they will croak during the cold season.
But who knows.

This is a trial only - I wanna gain some experience before I spend good bees on the same.
In the long run, I want all four of my log traps to convert into long-term log hives and just run the "good" bees in them as a pseudo-feral population (random swarming, etc, etc). 
I don't care what they do.
I just care that they persist.















PS: the mother Zombee hive is still seemingly confused (likely queen-less, as intended); lots of bee; not much work going on.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> OK, so my first log hive is officially up and running.
> 
> The Zombees are bringing pollen and basically look to be normally working.
> On weekend will peek inside.
> I will improve the roof and will incorporate a slab of rigid foam to have better top insulation.
> This is 30-40 litre pseudo-natural cavity with 3-5 inch solid walls.
> Three (3) chunks ("supers") comprise the entire hive.
> I assume they will propolis the "super" gaps.
> 4 Lang medium frames are hanging from the top as the guides AND to meet the "removable frame requirement" of WI.
> Otherwise, they are free to improvise below the frames.
> I can not really feed them due to the log hive limitations (this is really a short-term trap, by design).
> I could put some dry sugar chunks over the top bars, but not much - the space is limited.
> Will play it by the ear.
> I might try the dry feeding, just to gain the experience and observe.
> 
> The log Zombees are largely on their own now and I assume they will croak during the cold season.
> But who knows.
> 
> This is a trial only - I wanna gain some experience before I spend good bees on the same.
> In the long run, I want all four of my log traps to convert into long-term log hive and just run the "good" bees in them as a pseudo-feral population (random swarming, etc, etc).
> I don't care what they do.
> I just care that they persist.
> View attachment 50845
> 
> View attachment 50847
> 
> 
> PS: the mother Zombee hive is still seemingly confused (likely queen-less, as intended); lots of bee; not much work going on.


Greg you could try a baggie feeder if there is some room above the frames or even on the bottom it it is still warm enough.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Greg you could try a baggie feeder if there is some room above the frames or even on the bottom it it is still warm enough.


Indeed, I could.
There is space for a about quart of liquid up there (a zip bag could work).
Since this is an experiment, I may try (not that I care of these Zombees enough).


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> ....
> It also reacts to a human finger the same way - mite is feeling its presence, turns to it, and is ready to hop onto it.
> (need to photograph this when I have a helper).
> I am pretty sure I am the first person to ever try and document it.
> SO - here it is - just said it.
> Hahaha.


OK, a photo.
Mite is on my son's shaky thumb.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> ........
> The darn mites are still alive after 4 days.
> I can only assume they feed on open brood.


Day 5.
The brood is starting to smell not-so-fresh.
Mites are still running around the comb.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Day 5.
> The brood is starting to smell not-so-fresh.
> Mites are still running around the comb.


It is a wonder that bees can deal with them at all given their robust constitution. Do we have an over/under on how many days they'll survive?


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> OK, so my first log hive is officially up and running.


Now this is cool- looking forward to watching this one progress.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> For sure, I want the compact vertical hives - the honey box should only hold up to 6 nominal Lang med frames.


So I saw this on another forum today and immediately thought of your experimentations- have you ever researched this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwjTXJp-OVc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_SKxzuqfDs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMb7707-qUM

While I have heard of running two-queen colonies, I have never heard of having three hives connected together with only excluders separating them. I am sure it has been done before, but it would be really interesting to test this theory and see if the colonies do in-fact work together to normalize surplus honey storage in all three super stacks.


----------



## msl

lol I sent them to greg before posting them on bee l


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> lol I sent them to greg before posting them on bee l


MSL:

Thank you for the update- I didn't know that was you or I would have given you the credit!

It is a really interesting concept and I could only find one other forum (over in the UK) discussing it. I wonder how widely utilized this method is in Ukraine?


----------



## msl

no credit for goggle finds !


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> no credit for goggle finds !


At least a finder's fee, right?

In the 3rd video he discusses the timing of opening the connectors between the colonies but doesn't get into much depth- I wonder if there is a written procedure of how this management approach is supposed to be executed. The idea of having levers on each hive with hinged doors at the back is pretty ingenious- if maybe expensive to buy or time-intensive to make.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> So I saw this on another forum today and immediately thought of your experimentations- have you ever researched this one?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwjTXJp-OVc
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_SKxzuqfDs
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMb7707-qUM
> 
> While I have heard of running two-queen colonies, I have never heard of having three hives connected together with only excluders separating them. I am sure it has been done before, but it would be really interesting to test this theory and see if the colonies do in-fact work together to normalize surplus honey storage in all three super stacks.


Looked.
Well, this is not for me even IF I had time/resources.

The main argument against, as of me - this is working against the distributed way I prefer.
This is worse than a row of the hives.
In this case, the bees in the row of the hives are deliberately connected and the bees are mixed up.
Well, looks like a case of Titanic to me.
It will sink in a spectacular fashion due to the parasite/infection explosion (IF meant to be as a through-away/harvest-oriented setup - then OK - it may produce tons of honey).

Over-engineered to, IMO.

PS: 
I suppose GG proposed "bee-wall" can be compared to a row of hives too;
well - I personally would "manage" the bee-wall at near-zero investment - let them die and let them do as wish - harvest/clean-out the wall sections a couple-times per year - now that sounds like a worthwhile investment to me; GG needs to build a wall anyway, might as make the wall a bit "thicker" and drill few holes into ot - that is the essential difference - need that wall anyway - Man! I really like that kind of a "bee-wall" idea - go up North deer-hunting; while at it, harvest your honey too - a double-whammer.


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> So I saw this on another forum today and immediately thought of your experimentations- have you ever researched this one?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwjTXJp-OVc
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_SKxzuqfDs
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMb7707-qUM
> 
> While I have heard of running two-queen colonies, I have never heard of having three hives connected together with only excluders separating them. I am sure it has been done before, but it would be really interesting to test this theory and see if the colonies do in-fact work together to normalize surplus honey storage in all three super stacks.


Russ, it would need to be way better than normalize, as you are adding risk, and complexity. if any 1 hive gets bugs they all do. And "Normalize " is that an old world word for "put supers on the wrong hive"?  multi queen can be fun, several caveats, they do not superceed properly, have a queen so what if 1 fails. bees can migrate to the "most best phermones", A swarm, now there is a sigh to see, 1/2 to 2/3 of the complex is going to leave, may be cells all over and 10 - 15 after swarms, multi queen does not need to wait till capping the Q cell to leave. Interesting unless you were counting on a crop. Re queening is also fickle as "they" have a queen or 2 so why accept. If lots of bees glam onto the best queen that stack may run out of winter stores and the poor queens make if fine. Seems to me a fun way to while away some time if you what to spend it and learn some corner case things.
GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Russ, it would need to be way better than normalize, as you are adding risk, and complexity. * if any 1 hive gets bugs they all do. .....*
> GG


This is a case of OVER-centralization with all the associated benefits and risks.
Maybe a good prayer actually helps.
Don't know.
Lots and lots work/maintenance too as for me.

I like GG's "bee-wall" proposal a lot, however.
Kind of centralized too - but initial construction/long-term management overhead is very low potentially (if you want it to be very low).


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> In this case, the bees in the row of the hives are deliberately connected and the bees are mixed up.





Gray Goose said:


> Russ, it would need to be way better than normalize, as you are adding risk, and complexity. i


Gents:

Thank you for your replies- I am afraid that my post emphasized the wrong aspect of why I shared it here insofar that what I thought most interesting were the modular, self-supporting frames that could be installed warm-way or cold-way, don't require a frame rest and are stackable that I thought might be of interest/inspiration to GregV in his desire to retrofit some boxes he has into compact vertical configurations.

I parenthetically noted that the three queen thing was really interesting and I wondered how it could work practically, and you both bring out a lot of good reasons to avoid such an approach.

I apologize for the confusion, and I do like the 'bee wall' idea.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Gents:
> 
> ........
> I apologize for the confusion, and I do like the 'bee wall' idea.


No need to apologize.

This case brings many interesting contexts - all mixed in-one.

One of them is this - a priest with all of his worries and time concentrated on, really, just saving *himself * - has lots and lots of time to tinker with his hives (while rehearsing the prayers).
Many unwashed folks with a bunch of kids to raise, on the other hand, would prefer simple straw hives to scoop some honey in the fall (and forgotten otherwise).


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Gents:
> 
> ..... I thought most interesting were the modular, *self-supporting frames that could be installed warm-way or cold-way, don't require a frame rest and are stackable *that I thought might be of interest/inspiration to GregV in his desire to retrofit some boxes he has into compact vertical configurations.
> 
> .


Now, this got me thinking again...
Last week I was off and managed to slap together another hybrid hive and a batch of frames.




































I still hate how long it takes me to build my custom frames (even with repurposed Lang frames).


----------



## GregB

What I will do IF really hurting for time - I will do ONE single manipulation - will zip together two Lang meduim frames and will simply stand them up straight, using the ears as the stands.
Because I can.
They will be just free standing in my hives in between the hanging frames.
One way - use them as honey-frames at the honey-end of the long hives - add them last in the season and remove them first and extract in standard equipment.
Like so:


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Gents:
> 
> Thank you for your replies- I am afraid that my post emphasized the wrong aspect of why I shared it here insofar that what I thought most interesting were the modular, self-supporting frames that could be installed warm-way or cold-way, don't require a frame rest and are stackable that I thought might be of interest/inspiration to GregV in his desire to retrofit some boxes he has into compact vertical configurations.
> 
> I parenthetically noted that the three queen thing was really interesting and I wondered how it could work practically, and you both bring out a lot of good reasons to avoid such an approach.
> 
> I apologize for the confusion, and I do like the 'bee wall' idea.


No Apology needed Russ, I whole heartily recommend you try it. the learning is worth it, I gained a lot of understanding from Multi Queen approaches.
It is a different animal some of the things you will pick up I listed. 
There will be some non Glamour things with multi Queen and Now with Varroa, it could be for the sake of the "experiment" you would need to OAV or something , else it would wobble a bit. You are right it is really interesting. give it a go sometime.
GG


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> ... will zip together two Lang meduim frames and will simply stand them up straight, using the ears as the stands.


This sounds like a good idea, Greg. I am impressed by your ingenuity.


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> I whole heartily recommend you try it. the learning is worth it, I gained a lot of understanding from Multi Queen approaches.


Thanks, Gray Goose. I figure I'd better see if I can figure standard single-queen approaches before I even think about experimenting with stuff like this- but I am sure there is a lot of interesting things that can be observed by giving a multi-queen approach a try.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Day 5.
> The brood is starting to smell not-so-fresh.
> Mites are still running around the comb.


Day 7.
Looked.
Found a mite sitting on the comb (as if asleep).
Prodded with a needle - it grabbed onto it.
So - free-roaming mites are still alive.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> So - free-roaming mites are still alive.


They are unstoppable!


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> They are unstoppable!


Somewhere along the way, I lost a day or two.
So - I took the drone comb out on the night of August 19th.
This makes tonight the *6th day.*

No one caught my crooked math.
Anyway, the day 6 is today.
My buddy Vic is still around, grabs onto the needle for his acrobatics, and otherwise lives comfortably in my kitchen.


----------



## GregB

Donno what I am going to do with all these queens.
I just combined two nucs and thought - whew, one down.

Well, darn thing - today found TWO fresh queens on neighboring frames in another nuc (they decided to replace a new queen by two newer queens).
Well, darn thing - had to make up another mating nuc on the spot again - one up.

Still hovering around 20 units (the Zombees included).
Looks like this is going to be a repeat of last year - all way from 20-framers to 2-framers.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Somewhere along the way, I lost a day or two.
> So - I took the drone comb out on the night of August 19th.
> This makes tonight the *6th day.*
> 
> No one caught my crooked math.
> Anyway, the day 6 is today.
> My buddy Vic is still around, grabs onto the needle for his acrobatics, and otherwise lives comfortably in my kitchen.
> View attachment 50903
> 
> View attachment 50905


Donno how Vic is doing.
Forgot to look; too busy now.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> ...one down.
> 
> ...one up.


Isn't this normal beekeeping math? . Sounds like you have quite a knack for propagating queens.

Please do keep us posted when Vic finally bites the dust.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Isn't this normal beekeeping math? . Sounds like you have quite a knack for propagating queens.
> 
> Please do keep us posted when Vic finally bites the dust.


I don't know, I need to figure out how to winter every mated queen somehow (those of value).
Just putting one of these with the Zombees will not help much - mites will overrun them all at this point.
Maybe I will experiment wintering small nucs again for the experience.

Vic is done and I have not a clue on which day (for sure after the day 6).
Looks like committed suicide by jumping into honey (bunch of them mites are floating in honey around island - the chunk of comb).
Pretty much all larva is rotting by now and I wonder if they could not longer tolerate the stench.
Will just jump the larva corpses back to the Zombees and let them have at it - suck on the rotting blood and flesh, what not.
The hive of the dead and lazy Zombees.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Vic is done and I have not a clue on which day (for sure after the day 6).


Certainly lends anecdotal credence to the idea of varroa hopping-off one bee at a foraging site and then hitch-hiking a ride on a subsequent forager days later.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Certainly lends anecdotal credence to the idea of varroa hopping-off one bee at a foraging site and then hitch-hiking a ride on a subsequent forager days later.


For sure, the agility and robustness of the mite is superior.
The mite easily running up and down the shiny needle was cool to watch.
Everyone can repeat this and make a nice video (my phone could not focus well for the video).

I kinda observed it and thought of the futility to us (the humans) somehow try to rid of the mites.
It is waste of time.
And why...
Darn bees will do it just as well and better. 
Doing it already.


----------



## GregB

On my way to the office I thought - I am not really a "weekend beekeeper" (ok beehaver, whatever.... details).
I am once-a-month bee-owner.
That would be a more accurate concept.

After the Zombee butchering event, I never made it back yet.
No clue what is there.
The queen-less Zombees should have raised a new queen by now and my drone-laying scheme probably fell through.
Too bad, but I was busy building an extractor and spinning honey.
Can not be everywhere at once.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> .................
> It not a trait I am talking about as much as the conditions set up by your management. *If the bees are capable of of making a cleansing flight, why would you wish them not to? Why go against a trait the leads to improved survival?*


Was reviewing some notes for whatever need....

MSL,
I must admit, I will need to change my tune a bit.
Trying for uniformity in a bee collection is not a good idea. 
Variety is a better idea.

Exactly because:


> If the bees are capable of of making a cleansing flight, why would you wish them not to? Why go against a trait the leads to improved survival?


In this game of dice tossing, you never really know which exact trait will pull you through *this particular winter.*
Sometimes it is better to stay put and wait it out for as long as possible (and hold your poop).
Sometimes it is better to get out at each and every opportunity presented (and go ahead and poop, be it even every week).
And so, the variety is the answer.
Best to have as many combinations on hand as possible (even the most crappy ones - as it may appear at the moment; the crappy ones could very well be the ultimate survivors).


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> On my way to the office I thought - I am not really a "weekend beekeeper" (ok beehaver, whatever.... details).
> I am once-a-month bee-owner.
> That would be a more accurate concept.
> 
> After the Zombee butchering event, I never made it back yet.
> No clue what is there.
> The queen-less Zombees should have raised a new queen by now and my drone-laying scheme probably fell through.
> Too bad, but I was busy building an extractor and spinning honey.
> Can not be everywhere at once.


+ 1 I have some Hives I have been into 2 times the whole year. If I "needed" to be in every couple weeks I would eventually hit the time limit for growth. I cannot hire any one so I am at the point of "Having" as many bees as one person can care for in a couple weekends a month plus a few lunch hours. the more they drive them selves the better I like it and propagate them. I start spinning Sunday, pull supers Saturday. then prep for deer season, and winter. with pears ,peaches and apples to put up blended into the evenings.
GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> + 1 I have some Hives I have been into 2 times the whole year. If I "needed" to be in every couple weeks I would eventually hit the time limit for growth. I cannot hire any one so I am at the point of "Having" as many bees as one person can care for in a couple weekends a month plus a few lunch hours. the more they drive them selves the better I like it and propagate them. I start spinning Sunday, pull supers Saturday. *then prep for deer season, and winter. with pears ,peaches and apples to put up blended into the evenings.*
> GG


Haha, GG!

Been putting up plums and peaches; just recently finished.
Now I have buckets and pots with honey standing around the kitchen - hopefully, one day I will empty those into the jars.
Meanwhile, I must go and pick some Macintosh apples - they are screaming at me.
Last night I went and lifted my first potatoes for the season - tired of store-bought potatoes and done with that junk for the year.
God, the fresh, home-grown taters, roasted in chicken drippings are delicious, to die for.








Oh, and the school just started too.

So, the low-maintenance style of bee-having is really a necessity for regular village folk, like myself.
I am totally on board with the old time peasants - they had absolutely no time for those bees (save for the harvest time).
Need for low-maintenance mode of operation, matching equipment, AND the low-maintenance bees is screaming at my face.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> So, the low-maintenance style of bee-having is really a necessity for regular village folk, like myself.
> I am totally on board with the old time peasants - they had absolutely no time for those bees (save for the harvest time).
> Need for low-maintenance mode of operation, matching equipment, AND the low-maintenance bees is screaming at my face.


This I can absolutely identify with. Personally, it seems the distinction of providing appropriate management at the right time is a lifetime study.


----------



## GregB

Only had time to feed few nucs.
While there, looked at the Zombee-log.
Interesting how they use the lower entrance in the mid-section, and largely ignore the upper entrance (only few guards are peeking out).









I also got to think - why is it widely assumed that the late swarms are doomed?
Why would bees even do it if they are doomed (swarm late)?
Late swarming should be naturally selected out over the millennia bees are around.

Well, looking at this small vertical log hive (30 liters) with thick wooden walls arranged as a narrow, vertical cavity..
I think these guys do not need much honey at all to winter.
They can totally store away enough to winter IF the late flow is good enough.
Wintering in this log hive should be really, really efficient (as it has been showing how efficient is wintering in the Warre-formatted hives).

I feel the idea of doomed late swarms is wrong.
If good quality dwellings (small and efficient hollows for the small late swarms) are available and sufficient late flow is available - why are they doomed?
Who said this?
Did they ever test the theory properly (outside of a notorious Lang box, obviously)?
Thinking back, the wild, unmanaged forests should have had plenty of housing options fitting the late swarms well.


----------



## GregB

Talking of how much honey one needs...
Two medium supers extracted looks like this on my table.









Really, how much more honey one needs?
This is more than enough to "pay the rent", few gifts, and enough for the household of five souls.
There is much more honey still in the hives and I don't exactly care to extract more.
Best is probably to keep the honey in the frames as-is and in the hives where it belongs.

I could cut few select chunks just to try different honey samples (from the winter dead-outs).
As far as generic summer wildflower honey goes, I already grew a little tired of it just from licking the utensils as I was filling the jars.


----------



## Gray Goose

Hi Greg,

re:I feel the idea of doomed late swarms is wrong.
If good quality dwellings (small and efficient hollows for the small late swarms) are available and sufficient late flow is available - why are they doomed?
Who said this?
Did they ever test the theory properly (outside of a notorious Lang box, obviously)?
Thinking back, the wild, unmanaged forests should have had plenty of housing options fitting the late swarms well.

my opinion on the option the bees would deploy....
My opinion is think back a few 1000 years, the late swarms are either last min, lets get out of here. Or more likely this late swarm looks for a queen less hive or dwindler, that they could overwhelm and steal a good provisioned up "place" to winter in. Think Tribe moves to new hunting grounds , goes "hmmmm me like" clubs the folks camped there moves in to their digs takes the stores and place and stays. So the late season queen failure happens, the late swarm is the go and save a few more for the next season attempt. I would wager if you watched the scouts of late swarms "marked bees" they probe weak hives to find an easily taken over home.
It is a usurper swarm. I have had a time or 2 that my small dwindling hive gets a swarm to move in, never actually seen it but when the bees go from 2 or 3 frames of bees, to 20 frames something happened.
It is a genetic manifestation of "habitat recovery" since by spring it is a mouse nest tree.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Two medium supers extracted looks like this on my table..


Good haul, Greg. And because you know the beekeeper, you know what is not in the honey you collected.


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> It is a usurper swarm.


I observed one of these in action last August. While ultimately unsuccessful (likely because of my involvement), the attempted usurpation was a queen who was superseded and subsequently took off with a softball-sized clump of bees in an attempt to take-over another colony.

I did not know it at the time, but the colony that was besieged was in the throws of failing due to varroa infestation so it was ripe for take-over.

I imagine there might be late swarms which issue due to beekeeper intervention as well (and maybe even exceptionally good Fall flows?), but I do think that usurpations are more common than we expect.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Good haul, Greg. And because you know the beekeeper, *you know what is not in the honey you collected*.


Absolutely.
A good thing - all that honey is collected from the weeds around my area.
The weeds that no one ever sprayed with anything (else there would be no weeds).
That's why we like the weeds.
Worth all the sticky hassle.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Hi Greg,
> 
> ............It is a usurper swarm.
> 
> GG


It maybe so and not excluding it.

However, I what I was more looking at - the energy efficiency of a natural log hive.
The darn thing should be really energy efficient (especially after I will add a slab of XPS on the top - to emulate wooden mass, presently removed from above the hive).
With that, a smallish cluster could make it.
I am actually wishing these Zombees well.
Maybe will feed them even, to compensate for the cool weather lately (not much income).


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Absolutely.
> A good thing - all that honey is collected from the weeds around my area.
> The weeds that no one ever sprayed with anything (else there would be no weeds).
> That's why we like the weeds.
> Worth all the sticky hassle.


Way to go, GregV. Keep up the good work...


----------



## GregB

Here is an excellent read and sits with me very well.

*Is the Modern Mass Extinction Overrated?*
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/is-the-modern-mass-extinction-overrated?utm_source=pocket-newtab

In the TF beekeeping context - artificially propping the bees is equivalent to this idea of the article:


> “I’m concerned *a lot of resources being spent on conservation are focused on trying to keep things exactly as they are, or revert to some imagined past,*” says Chris Thomas (above).
> “As great as those aspirations might be, in the long run, they’re doomed.”


Things are ever evolving and that is the only way forward.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Here is an excellent read and sits with me very well.
> 
> *Is the Modern Mass Extinction Overrated?*
> https://getpocket.com/explore/item/is-the-modern-mass-extinction-overrated?utm_source=pocket-newtab
> 
> In the TF beekeeping context - artificially propping the bees is equivalent to this idea of the article:
> 
> 
> Things are ever evolving and that is the only way forward.


To be sure, the extinction is ongoing as we speak and is a very bad thing.
But trying to keep the status quo and trying to go back in time is not the way to fight it.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> *Is the Modern Mass Extinction Overrated?*
> https://getpocket.com/explore/item/is-the-modern-mass-extinction-overrated?utm_source=pocket-newtab


Interesting article, GregV. That was indeed a thought-provoking read. There were a few points he made that were note-worthy to me.

It is notable to me that he holds the standard Darwinian line that, _ "Life is just what happens, and unfortunately, or fortunately, it has no ultimate purpose."_

And in almost the same breath makes mention of something that would be heresy in the Darwinian mantra- that of non-uniformitarianism:

_"Evolution is a process. It can’t be too fast or too slow. It just happens. Under some circumstances it’s faster and slower. By and large, the faster the environment changes, the faster evolution takes place, because some lineages are lost and some are able to diversify under the new conditions. Yes, there could be a rate of change that was so fast that evolutionary adaptations were incapable of keeping up with it. But there isn’t any evidence at the moment that we are beyond some kind of tipping point beyond which evolution can’t hack it any longer. Look at how fast things evolve resistance to pesticides, or how many species manage to colonize new parts of the world that we have disturbed."_

Otherwise, there were two salient points he made that stuck with me:

_"There has been no time in the history of life when species have been mixed up within and between continents at the rate that’s going on at the moment. The consequence of this human-caused transport is that hybrids must be coming into existence faster than ever before."_

_"Most ecologists accept that various plants can stabilize the soil, purify water, or fix carbon from the atmosphere, and so on. If so, then why should these services not also be provided by so-called non-native species? There’s no clear evidence that the old ones are better than new arrivals at doing these ecological jobs. The fact that new species are becoming established in our new, disturbed environmental conditions, suggests that non-native species could actually be better at these jobs. If you were to say, “My standpoint is that ecosystems are degraded by the loss of the former diversity,” then you might think that the ecosystem service has declined. But that argument doesn’t follow once you take into account the balance in gains."_


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Interesting article, GregV..........


Yes.
And what is very much relevant - EVERYONE on this exact forum are complicit in the processes described.
Knowingly or not; most probably are not.

Btw, about.... "Look at how fast things evolve resistance to pesticides...."
This is very much the same thing as with the bees - a very quick adaptive reaction to the external pressure without much radical evolution involved.
The most robust species have lots of flexibility built-in as is - this is how they are successful.

This is much to review and relearn.
The Darwinian theory is to be taken apart and reviewed using the modern tools.
There could be not much of it left in the end.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> This is much to review and relearn.
> The Darwinian theory is to be taken apart and reviewed using the modern tools.
> There could be not much of it left in the end.


From my very humble perspective, I think you are right in this regard. If nothing else, we need to begin by making a much finer distinction between the theory of evolution and the observational proof of adaptation- it often seems that we conflate these terms.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> From my very humble perspective, I think you are right in this regard. If nothing else, we need to begin by making a *much finer distinction between the theory of evolution and the observational proof of adaptation* - it often seems that we conflate these terms.


+100!


----------



## Litsinger

Litsinger said:


> From my very humble perspective, I think you are right in this regard. If nothing else, we need to begin by making a much finer distinction between the theory of evolution and the observational proof of adaptation- it often seems that we conflate these terms.


Almost on cue, I thought the following commentary brought out some interesting points relative to this issue of phenotypical adaptation:

https://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=BEE-L;7a4491e7.1909&S=

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214574519300355


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> .......
> 
> Otherwise, there were two salient points he made that stuck with me:
> 
> _*"There has been no time in the history of life when species have been mixed up within and between continents at the rate that’s going on at the moment*. The consequence of this human-caused transport is that hybrids must be coming into existence faster than ever before."_


If anything compatible did happen - those events could be connected to the land mass collisions (examples - North America/South America physically connecting; Asia/North America physically connecting).
In those instances, the species relatively quickly mixed and migrated, and species extinctions/formations took place.

By comparison, those linkages took many thousands of years or more to develop (maybe few milliseconds, geologically speaking).
It took just about 100-200 years for the human-originating cross-globe migrations to occur and continue to occur (a micro-second or less, geologically speaking).

So indeed, this never occurred in history before.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Donno what I am going to do with all these queens.
> I just combined two nucs and thought - whew, one down.
> 
> Well, darn thing - today found TWO fresh queens on neighboring frames in another nuc (they decided to replace a new queen by two newer queens).
> *Well, darn thing - had to make up another mating nuc on the spot again - one up.*
> 
> Still hovering around 20 units (the Zombees included).
> Looks like this is going to be a repeat of last year - all way from 20-framers to 2-framers.


That darn thing did mate and laying like a machine.
But there are no bees to even cover the brood on the two frames they got.
I do keep them compressed and well insulated - OK for now.
Weather is still warm.
I managed to keep them up amid all the crazy robbing going around.








So now I got this micro nuc with a handful of bees and a very runny young queen that lays all over.
Today was the first time ever I was able to find her (marked too) in that little bitty tiny nuc - she must have been hiding on the walls.
I like she is a runner; maybe a good indicator.

I guess it is time to make me another shook swarm (if pans out, it will be a good use for the still alive foragers - pretty useless now as the last flow is fading).
I will just go around 3-4 larger hives and shake the bees out of the supers into a box and that will be a new unit (need to empty the extra supers anyway).
Got lots of honey in the resource hives to spread the food around - not worried in that department.

In the other news - robbing pressure is high in the backyard.
The actual culprit - one of my nucs (a former nuc rather - now a late season boomer) - these bees turned up rather very prone to robbing the neighbors at every chance the get.

The fortified backyard nuc bank:


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> I will just go around 3-4 larger hives and shake the bees out of the supers into a box and that will be a new unit (need to empty the extra supers anyway). Got lots of honey in the resource hives to spread the food around - not worried in that department.


Sounds like a good problem to have, GregV. Good luck with your Fall close-out efforts.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Sounds like a good problem to have, GregV. Good luck with your Fall close-out efforts.


Started tonight.
Took off a super with the honey and the whatever bees in it (few handfuls at least).
Will keep them locked up 24 hours so they get desperate enough (just was getting a bit too dark to mess with them, they can wait).
Tomorrow night will shake into the nuc and let them hash it out; some or most will stay put.

Then will steal more bees from another hive and repeat.
I found doing this tonight while still some light was trivial - cool and not much flight (no robbing, bees stay put).
2-3 more hives I could shake down a bit this way.

This time a year, the excessive workforce quickly becomes a liability and needs to be fed for no payback (and die off pretty soon anyway).
Might as well reinforce a needy nuc - need body count to keep that brood warm.

Earlier this summer I indiscriminately shook the bees off the several honey frames into another straggling needy nuc (as I was harvesting some honey just nearby).
The effect was immediately positive - most of those bees stayed in the nuc.
The dragging nuc was jump started fine by that - just needed higher body count.
Risks are small as the queen is not likely to be in a honey storage (while the honey processing bees are mostly young).


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> This time a year, the excessive workforce quickly becomes a liability and needs to be fed for no payback (and die off pretty soon anyway).
> Might as well reinforce a needy nuc - need body count to keep that brood warm.


Good point, GregV. I had never really thought about it in those exact terms, and if you can get unemployed foragers to stay with their new place, that seems like it could have a practical benefit. For my part (limited as it may be), I have had little success relocating foragers save for locking them in their new home for 72 hours to get them rebooted.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Good point, GregV. I had never really thought about it in those exact terms, and if you can get unemployed foragers to stay with their new place, that seems like it could have a practical benefit. For my part (limited as it may be), I have had little success relocating foragers save for locking them in their new home for 72 hours to get them rebooted.


I dumped the bees into the nuc today at 8am.
Why NOT waiting until tonight?
Because 
1)we have cool and rainy day and 
2)i need the "bee prison" for another possible shake down tonight and 
3)most of the bees in the supers are honey-handling young bees - they will stay put where you dump them by default (which is my target nuc).

But yes, I got this idea of shook swarm/late nuc from a very interesting Russian youtube personality.
He practices such late nucs using pre-mated queens AND the no-longer needed late summer foraging force.
He has been told many times over how stupid it is what he has been doing.
Does not matter to him - the approach of re-purposing of no-longer needed workforce actually works fine and a good idea.
A few handfuls of soon-to-die bees shook from several hives - you get yourself more nucs going (must have resources of course this late in season - combs and feed).

Basically, what I am trying to do with this accidental queen - might as well.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> But yes, I got this idea of shook swarm/late nuc from a very interesting Russian youtube personality.
> He practices such late nucs using pre-mated queens AND the no-longer needed late summer foraging force.
> He has been told many times over how stupid it is what he has been doing.
> Does not matter to him - the approach of re-purposing of no-longer needed workforce actually works fine and a good idea.
> A few handfuls of soon-to-die bees shook from several hives - you get yourself more nucs going (must have resources of course this late in season - combs and feed).


If it works, it works right? Thanks for posting this idea- I look forward to hearing how it turns out for you.

Russ


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> If it works, it works right? Thanks for posting this idea- I look forward to hearing how it turns out for you.
> 
> Russ


Russ, Greg, reading the last few posts, I have done this not really this late but 3 weeks ago.
I went up to the north Apairy Had intentions of combining a Dink with another hive, 2 queen cell attempts and I did not think it would work. Low and behold a nice looking queen great pattern but only 6 frames of bees no honey to speak of. So next to it was a hive with 2 deeps and a medium, excluder and 5 supers, 4 full 1 being worked on. I lifted the supers off, swapped the two base hives, set the supers back in the same spot, walked away.
The field bees have 3-5 weeks to fill the weak hive with stores, my lift test last last week was better on the weak hive. so the big field force was used to make ready the small weak hive with the new young queen. may have cost me a super but it was worth it at the time. So another way would be to swap the NUC with a big hive, understanding the space needs. or winter ready hive with lots of bees with smaller not ready hive. or even set a trap on the weak hive and trap out 4-6 supers on it. the oriented bees go back but many would stay. several ways to play the same hand it is an equalizing tactic, which is somewhat understood already. I recognized it in a heart beat as it reminds me of my wife taking money from my wallet and putting it in hers to "equalize " them. 
GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Russ, Greg, reading the last few posts, ....
> GG


GG, I was contemplating this move (you describe).

But I have logistical problems with such move.
Decided against it for now.
Still MAY do it, not completely off the table.

So, I am choosing to go around taking off the supers (must be done anyway) and as a part of the deal stealing few bees along with the supers.
I simply take the frames out without shaking the bees of.
Placing the honey frames *with *the bees into the temporary holding "cell" and taking the "cell" home (honey and the bees).
Giving them some time to become desperate - then shake the bees into the nuc and put the honey away.

OK, before gets too late, OFF to shake down another hive!


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> GG, I was contemplating this move (you describe).
> 
> But I have logistical problems with such move.
> Decided against it for now.
> Still MAY do it, not completely off the table.
> 
> So, I am choosing to go around taking off the supers (must be done anyway) and as a part of the deal stealing few bees along with the supers.
> I simply take the frames out without shaking the bees of.
> Placing the honey frames *with *the bees into the temporary holding "cell" and taking the "cell" home (honey and the bees).
> Giving them some time to become desperate - then shake the bees into the nuc and put the honey away.
> 
> OK, before gets too late, OFF to shake down another hive!


Same concept , move bees to where you want them. Since you are taking honey any way, the secondary output from honey collection is bees.
How long do you leave them in Jail before putting into the NUC. Does it help with acceptance? and fighting?


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Same concept , move bees to where you want them. Since you are taking honey any way, the secondary output from honey collection is bees.
> How long do you leave them in Jail before putting into the NUC. Does it help with acceptance? and fighting?


I am rushing out of the basement office... And what do I see?
We are under rain.
Forget the shake down tonight..

GG, 
So far I only kept the bees from the same hive in temp jail.
No mixing.
Keeping overnight in jail should be plenty sufficient.

Tomorrow now, I will get 1-3 shake downs done, per a plan.
Will do the shake downs done in AM (per the plan).
bring the "jails" to my backyard (the location of the nuc);
Will add them to the nuc at night (just before dark - retention should be better; I will mix-dump them in, smoke, spray with some water, and will not worry IF from different hives).
This should do it for the unit #19 for the season.

Since I practice the follower boards, I dump the bees into empty section of the nuc (they must go around the follower board and introduce themselves - it works fine).
Also place a poor honey frame that came with them - just for the smell and a little food for them to huddle about - before they join the queen-right bees behind the wall.

Here is the original concept (non-English, but still watch - it is straight forward).
The guy is not concerned with mixing the bees at all.
The bees all are being dumped into a common holding jail from a variety of hives - indiscriminately and all mixed up.
There are ready combs and resources provided in the jail.
then put to dark storage for few hours (overnight if have to); 
then he gives them a queen and off they go - building up for the winter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSkeCcrbkMY

Basically, those bees would idle useless and die in few weeks/days after the season of flow is over.
Well, in those few weeks/days remaining, one can generate a good winter colony using the throw-away bees and a spare queen.


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> ...it reminds me of my wife taking money from my wallet and putting it in hers to "equalize " them.
> GG


Gray Goose:

This is too funny- and is certainly a good way to get the point across...


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> The bees all are being dumped into a common holding jail from a variety of hives - indiscriminately and all mixed up.
> There are ready combs and resources provided in the jail. then put to dark storage for few hours (overnight if have to); then he gives them a queen and off they go - building up for the winter.


Interesting idea, GregV. It makes some sense that if they are queenless this creates a very different dynamic. I look forward to hearing how this effort works out for you.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Interesting idea, GregV. It makes some sense that if they are queenless this creates a very different dynamic. I look forward to hearing how this effort works out for you.


Shook down more hives (took me another jail to hold all the inmates; glad I did these - now have perfect bee/frame/honey transportation - bee-proof both ways - needed for a long time).
















All inmates have been dumped in the nuc now.
(the last and biggest batch - I added a newspaper for safety - did sort of newspaper combine - really, should be doing the paper up-front but a slow-thinker and the "you-tuber" did without paper and without problems - will see).

Noticed some looses before dumping in more (unsure - due to my prior, overly-hasty dump OR just ongoing nuc robbing) 
For sure, the nuc has more bees AND the queen was still intact.

Need to look inside in 1-2 days.
Fingers crossed for the queen (but overall - this is a learning experiment and any known outcome should be fine).

I had to shake down the Zombees some (they will die anyway, I presume; might as well be useful for just a bit longer).
They indeed ate even more honey (whatever I left temporarily for them to "watch after" - was not able to take out at the time - gone!)
Took the half-full honey super off the Zombee-hive with the bees in it.







The remaining hive is dry and full of bees, them hanging about pointlessly.
Unsure of the queen status - whatever.
I found forgotten last year syrup in the garage and set it in the Zombee-hive so to replace the stolen frames and keep them busy eating (and maybe less robbing the nucs).
At this point, I only expect from them to watch over the empty combs from the moths, until the freeze sets in.
If still alive, dry sugar they get.

Was a perfect weekend:
- Saturday - I did all the shake-downs; did one direct shake-down/dump hive-to-nuc in a remote out-yard (no jail time even; this is the second time body-county transfer for them - the same donor/recipient); and in the late afternoon a bee dump in the backyard nuc from the jail #2;
- Sunday - all day rain - the bee jail #1 dump in early AM, after them thinking about it over-night (before even making breakfast) - in the light rain (just finished before it poured! yay...)


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Gray Goose:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...it reminds me of my wife taking money from my wallet and putting it in hers to "equalize " them.
> GG
> 
> 
> 
> This is too funny- and is certainly a good way to get the point across...
Click to expand...

+100.
Was gonna say.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Shook down more hives (took me another jail to hold all the inmates; glad I did these - now have perfect bee/frame/honey transportation - bee-proof both ways - needed for a long time).


I like your bee jail, GregV. Good idea- I am storing this one away for future reference.


----------



## msl

> Basically, those bees would idle useless and die in few weeks/days after the season of flow is over.
> Well, in those few weeks/days remaining, one can generate a good winter colony using the throw-away bees and a spare queen.


Hun, looking forward to your results... I would think they need to live for at least one brood cycle, if not 2


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> Hun, looking forward to your results... I would think they need to live for at least one brood cycle, if not 2


Fingers crossed.
Today October 1 and the flying weather will be less and less.
So those added workers will be mostly idle in the hive, just sitting there and providing body heat for the brood - perfect for me; exactly what I want; and they should last longer too not flying after all that little forage left. 

All I need is really to just pull this queen into the spring and then see what she can do.

Before - a handful of bees, hardly viable unit. 
One lonely worker is trying to unplug the entrance... 
This is how I kept them afloat from the harassing robbers - the masking tape with a little slit.








After - the 40 litre box is pretty much packed (just need fed now - not an issue).
Well, I have not check the queen status due to all the rain - the queen is the key to all this hassle.
If the queen is OK (can not wait to check her), I consider this shake-down/shook swarm/equalizing method is a good way to boost weak late nucs.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> I consider this shake-down/shook swarm/equalizing method is a good way to boost weak late nucs.


Also, I somehow hate the late season combines (and loosing potentially good queens).
Bees will not choose the better TF queen; they have other clues to choose queens (TF will not necessarily win).
All the while, many hives have excessive population on hand no longer needed and costing resources for no payback.
The workforce shake-downs and equalizing into the non-viable weak hives is a good way to avoid the combines.
Every extra queen saved could be of the benefit.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Well, I have not check the queen status due to all the rain - the queen is the key to all this hassle.
> If the queen is OK (can not wait to check her), I consider this shake-down/shook swarm/equalizing method is a good way to boost weak late nucs.


The queen is OK.
So the unit #19 is a GO on September-mated queen.
With so many workers now, they even started patching and rebuilding the crap combs I gave them as place-holders.
I should have tried the shake-downs last year, wasted lots of later workers for nothing - live and learn.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> The queen is OK.
> So the unit #19 is a GO on September-mated queen.
> With so many workers now, they even started patching and rebuilding the crap combs I gave them as place-holders.
> I should have tried the shake-downs last year, wasted lots of later workers for nothing - live and learn.


So far, so good- glad this experiment is working- you may be on to something!


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> So far, so good- glad this experiment is working- you may be on to something!


Of course, this also means I just created a need for yet another full-size equipment unit for the winter I don't have.
Suppose, there is a vacant spot in my wintering box, behind the "white triangle" (been using the spot to dry the extracted frames by the "pink" and the "blue" nucs). 
They can just go there, I guess as it gets colder.
So they will become the "white" nuc.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Of course, this also means I just created a need for yet another full-size equipment unit for the winter I don't have.


Isn't this one of the truisms of beekeeping- adapt and improvise? Good luck with this colony.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Isn't this one of the truisms of beekeeping- adapt and improvise? Good luck with this colony.


Hehe; one up - one down.
This just never changes.

Turned out I lost the "pink" nuc (see the pic above) - gong queen-less somehow and gradually just dissolved; was wondering of little activity lately.
Just a couple weeks ago yet they were taking in pollen; time flies.
The bees (I suspect) largely just crawled over into the "blue" nuc (no wonder them are "booming" as of late).
They left behind nearly empty hive with all the stores intact.

Of course, this also qualifies to be called an "abscond due to the mites or whatever".
However, the sister "blue" nuc from the same source does not feel like "absconding" just yet if ever will.

Anyway, I gladly reallocated the empty box with 4 heavy frames full of honey and bee bread to the #19, aka "white-nuc-to be" (and tossed a frame to the "blue" nuc - they deserved it too).

The #19 became the "pink" nuc and the #18 by renumbering them down.
Plopped them straight into their wintering slot.
One down.

I guess the seasonal count down has begun.
Starting at 18 pups and only down now.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> After the Zombee butchering event, I never made it back yet.
> No clue what is there.
> The queen-less Zombees should have raised a new queen by now and my drone-laying scheme probably fell through.
> Too bad, but I was busy building an extractor and spinning honey.
> Can not be everywhere at once.


Finally, got to look inside the Zombee hive since I need that hive badly (this one).















Well, that worthless pile crap:
- did not harvest much of late crop even (a bunch of bees and queen-less - I thought they would)
- I took away whatever little they had in the honey super (the 16-frame main body was basically bone dry)
- they ate through most all reserves
- did not take down any feed I placed to replace the stolen frames (I thought they would).

As of two nights ago - there was 2 frame of bees left and evidently a laying young queen (did not have time or care to look for her).

Basically dumped them all out (together with another struggling, dark-horse nuc).
Letting them hash it all out in a single 12-frame Layens for the queens and such - I don't care how the "honey bee democracy" works out for them.
Gave enough stores - if anything worthwhile in that bee pile - they will winter through.
I hope the resulting bunch will surprise me. 
They better, else those honey frames given to them are a waste.

Morale of the story - do NOT buy "almond bees".
Avoid at all cost.
Good for me - these were free.
The flip-side - wasted a season on these fools (should have attempted to just re-queen with my ferals; oh well).

OK, having a good unit of equipment back - housed two better-looking nucs into it (side-by-side).
Something good got done, at least.

Need to slap one more wintering hive for the last standing alone nuc and house those guys into more proper quarters.
Was a surprise (1-frame spare QC-salvage project - looking rather good now, after some assistance).

So far, 6 sites/18 units.
This include:
- 3 over-wintered units from back 2018 season;
- 2 caught 2019 swarms (just some dark-horse bees; winter testing is due).
- 1 artificial shook swarm (the log-hive experimentation unit; likely to croak - but we'll see; probably will give them some dry sugar assistance);
- 12 nucs/splits of the 2019 splitting season, of various shapes and sizes (4 frames up to 10 frames).

Thinking of the start of the 2019 season (just four wintered hives have created such a busy season; and sufficient bulk of extracted summer honey too).
I don't really need more than 5-7 hives to winter through.
It just will create so much hassle in the spring again (anti-swarming splits to start with).
I don't really need more bees, outside of the solid best core performers.

Those to die off in my collection, better do it quickly, as I prefer the early winter harvesting season (not empty hives after early spring die-offs).


----------



## GregB

When done with my end of the 2019 season rounds, will probably put up some detailed report of the unique sites/colonies - just for the fun of it.
So then we see how they do in the winter (and the equipment particulars too - since I have many).


----------



## Litsinger

Good updates, GregV. I am keenly interested to hear what conclusions you draw relative to the different set-ups you have. All-in-all, I'd say you made a lot of increase from where you were at the beginning of the year. Good luck with your overwintering efforts.


----------



## GregB

I guess will be going by the yard #s and see where we are at and how is the winter prospects are looking.



> #1 - the base (backyard)
> #2 - secondary base (the bus stop acquaintance property - 1/2 mile from the base)
> #3 - private preserve/farmstead (2-3 miles away)
> #4 - private farmstead (5-6 miles away)
> #5 - private preserve (5-6 miles away)
> #6 - commercial farm (2-3 miles away)


#6.
Last Sunday night I checked them after ~3 months not going there.
Took me longer to start the smoker than to check the bees.
There was nothing to do. 

A single unit (June 2019 captured swarm); 
10 super-deep frame box; 
Colony is strong and covers up to 10 frames and should have enough stores as-is (maybe late MC addition be good just as an insurance).
Looking optimistic.

In late Nov/early Dec, I will wrap them from the wind (this is a cold, plywood-wall hive).

Single-level deep frames (Layens style) with asymmetric entrance - a beauty of the low-maintenance beekeeping.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Last Sunday night I checked them after ~3 months not going there.
> Took me longer to start the smoker than to check the bees.
> There was nothing to do.


I imagine this was a positive evaluation- glad to hear that you have at least a few 'set-it-and-forget-it' colonies.

Hopefully they produce you 100+ pounds of surplus honey year-over-year too... I guy can dream right?


----------



## msl

Winter of 17/18 you got 2 out of 11 threw till spring- 82% loses
Winter of 18/19 you got 4 out of 14 threw till spring-71% loses 
your 19/20 gole of 5-7 out of 18, 61-72% losses would seem reasonable given your past years

have you seen Honeyland? I would think its right up your ally


----------



## AR1

A news report on GregV's (and my) area's current weather. Early, record early snow amounts. This has been an odd year.

https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/halloween-snowstorm-wallops-the-midwest/611593

I do remember walking through knee-deep snow one Halloween when I was a little kid. Some time in the late 1960s.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> I guess will be going by the yard #s and see where we are at and how is the winter prospects are looking.
> 
> #1 - the base (backyard)
> #2 - secondary base (the bus stop acquaintance property - 1/2 mile from the base)
> #3 - private preserve/farmstead (2-3 miles away)
> #4 - private farmstead (5-6 miles away)
> #5 - private preserve (5-6 miles away)
> #6 - commercial farm (2-3 miles away)


#5.
Only two units left (moved a small nuc to the base #1 - the nuc wintering quarters).

The blue unit on the left was a hybrid deep/conventional supers. 
Next year will need some tweaking - they ditched the deep bottom and settled in the honey super (had to put them back down).
Pretty much dead (2-3 frames of bees left).
Very heavy mite infestation. Classic.
This is the same hive I had to do a shook swarm in summer.
Don't know what is up with them, but whatever.
I harvested a good amount of honey from this hive. No stores now.
I gave them a pair of honey frames back this past weekend (but likely just wasted honey, really).
If they freeze over the next few days - that'd be the best outcome; but they will likely hang on longer.








The wrapped unit on the right appears a very healthy split on 7 deep frames.
Originated from the "dead" hive.
All settled in for the winter - zero input from me as far as manipulations and such (good to be on a single level - no stupid supers - no confusion - bees just settle as they see fit).
Plenty of stores (some from my feeding).
5 minute check and done.
I really like these single-level deep hives.
Wrapped from the precipitation (this plywood hive will need better wrapping/insulation for the winter - last winter was not adequate).

Winter outside of the kitchen window.
We essentially have very early winter (should soften up though - too early).


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I imagine this was a positive evaluation- glad to hear that you have at least a few 'set-it-and-forget-it' colonies.
> 
> Hopefully they produce you 100+ pounds of surplus honey year-over-year too... I guy can dream right?


These single-level deep hives really rule - no futsing about - set-it-and-forget-it.
Loving it.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> A news report on GregV's (and my) area's current weather. Early, record early snow amounts. This has been an odd year.
> 
> https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/halloween-snowstorm-wallops-the-midwest/611593
> *
> I do remember walking through knee-deep snow one Halloween when I was a little kid. *Some time in the late 1960s.


We just had one tonight.
Wife had to go slogging with the kids.
I had other chores... Hehehe.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> Winter of 17/18 you got 2 out of 11 threw till spring- 82% loses
> Winter of 18/19 you got 4 out of 14 threw till spring-71% loses
> *your 19/20 gole of 5-7 out of 18, 61-72% losses would seem reasonable given your past years*
> 
> have you seen Honeyland? I would think its right up your ally


5-7 best units in spring be good.
Plenty.
The others better drop off fast, IF they are to go.
The resources best used elsewhere.

Honeyland?
Don't know what it is.
This? (a movie?)
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf...hUKEwixzqjs38flAhXxct8KHSW6AkMQ4dUDCAc&uact=5


----------



## AR1

I have two nucs I am seeing if will make it in 5-frame deeps. They both seem healthy, no signs of mites or disease, but it's been very poor foraging weather so I wonder how well-fed their winter bees will be. They'll get plenty of sugar and a nice protected spot out of the wind, next to the house. We shall see. 
Otherwise, one in a single 10-frame deep and one with two 10-frame deeps.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> We just had one tonight.
> Wife had to go slogging with the kids.
> I had other chores... Hehehe.


-5C I see this AM.
And the forecast is not going much up.
Bees will be fine.

But the potato crop still in the ground, and water in the buckets/containers I saved up to wash the potatoes - frozen solid now. What the heck???!!!


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> I have two nucs I am seeing if will make it in 5-frame deeps. ....


AR, be sure to have dry sugar on the top for these.
It it not so much about not having honey - it is much more about small cluster getting stuck at the top and not moving.
Having dry sugar within reach will save them.
The small clusters are unable to move much around and just stay at the warmest possible spot - the very top.


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> AR, be sure to have dry sugar on the top for these.
> It it not so much about not having honey - it is much more about small cluster getting stuck at the top and not moving.
> Having dry sugar within reach will save them.
> The small clusters are unable to move much around and just stay at the warmest possible spot - the very top.


That's the plan. More worried about poor pollen stocks for the winter bee production over the last two months. Without Fall pollen they will be weak bees. I made sure they got sugar, but did not give them pollen sub.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> That's the plan. More worried about poor pollen stocks for the winter bee production over the last two months. Without Fall pollen they will be weak bees. I made sure they got sugar, but did not give them pollen sub.


One important consideration also (regarding specifically small clusters, since they are energy difficient) - the dry feed needs NOT warming up before it can be consumed.
This is a huge consideration.

Consumption of honey/syrup requires warming it up before bees can consume it.
So that alone means - bees must exert energy before they can eat (already a problem with small clusters).
https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...-wintering-cluster-size&p=1764593#post1764593

Dry sugar needs not warming up - energy saving food for nucleus clusters.


----------



## GregB

Apimondia 2021 - Ufa/Russia.
Stay tuned.
I wish I knew Spanish! 
Still, a cool vid.
https://www.facebook.com/apimondia2021/


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Apimondia 2021 - Ufa/Russia.
> Stay tuned.
> I wish I knew Spanish!
> Still, a cool vid.
> https://www.facebook.com/apimondia2021/


That was a neat video, GregV. I could not get it to play on Facebook, so I had to look it up on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSyVDL0ntkA

I noticed they called the beekeeper an, 'Apicultural Artisan'- now that has quite a ring to it!


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> .......I noticed they called the beekeeper an, 'Apicultural Artisan'- now that has quite a ring to it!


The thing is still an Art in many respects.
You know - the non-explainable, illogical component to it.
Like I said - the "black box"!
Well, people argue......

PS: down to 17 units here... no time to write-up in detail.

PPS: we have a very severe November here - talking some serious winter for the first week of November (I virtually got caught with my pants dow.... ok); 
we had our first snow prior to the Halloween this year and it basically just stays as if for good now;
barely was able to lift my last potatoes the last day prior to the deep freeze sequence;
talking -10 -12 C at night and still freezing days;

I guess, this maybe good to have 1-2 more units weeded out rather quickly - I know of at least one - I'd prefer they just drop off and be done with.
No insulation in place yet (just a layer of burlap) - not too worried; too early to insulate still.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> The thing is still an Art in many respects.
> You know - the non-explainable, illogical component to it.
> Like I said - the "black box"!
> Well, people argue......
> 
> PS: down to 17 units here... no time to write-up in detail.
> 
> PPS: we have a very severe November here (I virtually got caught with my pants dow.... ok);
> barely was able to lift my last potatoes;
> talking -10C at night and still freezing days;
> I guess, this maybe good to have 1-2 more units weeded out rather quickly - too many.


Pants down lifting potatoes... Resisting the image..... late to try this year, but in the past I have put stray and/or leaves on potatoes and carrots and left them till a mid winter thaw and they were fine, a foot or so is a good start. any time you run out shovel off the snow remove leaves and straw and dig away, they stay well in dirt over winter. needs to not freeze obviously. In bitter cold I would think 6 inches of straw 2 inches of Closed cell Styrofoam then some more leaves and then snow would also work.
GG


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> The thing is still an Art in many respects.


FWIW I agree with you. Like a lot of things in life it is parts art and science to varying degrees.

Good luck with your hurried winter preps.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Pants down lifting potatoes... Resisting the image..... late to try this year, but in the past I have put stray and/or leaves on potatoes and carrots and left them till a mid winter thaw and they were fine, a foot or so is a good start. any time you run out shovel off the snow remove leaves and straw and dig away, they stay well in dirt over winter. needs to not freeze obviously. In bitter cold I would think 6 inches of straw 2 inches of Closed cell Styrofoam then some more leaves and then snow would also work.
> GG


Well, I strategically scheduled a "work-from-home-after-hours" that day (after consulting the forecast).
Spent the afternoon outside.
Just made in time and called the season done.
'Tatoes are in the garage; all good.

PS: 
wife made some potatoes with mushrooms last night; 
a killer; 
will see - I may change my mind come 2020 planting season regarding the potatoes (again).


----------



## GregB

Mb this weekend will toss blankets to the smallest nucs.
Will see.

If you rush and insulate now, they may stick to the top too early and will stay up there all winter - not good.
I don't want them stuck at the very top in November.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Mb this weekend will toss blankets to the smallest nucs.
> Will see.
> 
> If you rush and insulate now, they may stick to the top too early and will stay up there all winter - not good.
> I don't want them stuck at the very top in November.


Greg,, I have several small ish hives 5 over 5 NUCs till late july moved into 10 frame gear, they widened out to like 7 over 7 or 8 over 8. This winter could be a real test, starting early like this. I was going to cover but then seem some threads on small clusters doing better cool and no top entrance. I should do a few of each and see what spring tells me. fortunately 1/2 are bigger hives 30 frames. (lang) will see, I am really hoping we get a nice December, shift to new stores and elimination flight. been looking at the threads on upper entrance and ventilation, message seems to be size and location dependent. 

If you have tader space and they do good in your ground may as well do a few they are relatively easy to grow. me i do onions, i like a mess of them with fresh Venison. Also they keep quite well. Well I have 1/2 my comb honey gone already this year. it is good fresh as well. Ever try canned raspberries and comb honey on potato pancakes? good stuff. Or potato pancakes and your pressed drone brood? ok need to stop this is making me hungry.

GG


----------



## AR1

Yep, it's nearly January weather! Not below zero here yet but in the single digits once or twice. I got sugar on my hives and put insulation in the top box. See if this works better. Can't work worse than last year! I hadn't understood how dangerous moisture is.


----------



## msl

> the dry feed needs NOT warming up before it can be consumed.
> This is a huge consideration.


yes
2 days before the "bomb cyclone" hit this spring I found 2 bone dry KTBH nucs and put Drivert on them(dumped on the floor).. it was in the high 50s and they were flying ...lol got to love the FRRC








not only did they make it, when I brushed the snow off them a week later they were putting stores in to the combs...
yes it costs 2X-3x normal sugar, but they will take it (in the cold) almost as fast as liquid feed (when its warm enuff) and will prefrantaly use it.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Greg,, I have several small ish hives 5 over 5 NUCs till late july........ me i do onions, i like a mess of them with fresh Venison....... Ever try canned raspberries and comb honey on potato pancakes? good stuff. Or potato pancakes and your pressed drone brood? ok need to stop this is making me hungry.
> 
> GG


Well, 2am, Saturday... 

Yes. Eventually, I will nail wintering the nucs.
Most of my hives will be classified as a "nuc" by an average BS reader.
How it goes .... 
Nucs/small hives are cheap to carry - just need to have the right bee and the right methods.
Then you will be unsinkable, never mind the pests and disease.

Just like the cows, there are huge beef cows (but no milk); there are skinny, small cows (but great milk, yet not too much of it); there are great, big milk producers (but the milk is just so-so, I don't care if lots of it). In my village we had just mutt cows and every cow was different. Just mutt gees, and mutt chickens, and mutt dogs and mutt cats; mutt horses too. 

Darn. I love onions! Everyone in this house eats onions (whether they know it or not).
I got two beds of onions under some old mattress covers and the snow - in ground right now.
Because every fall (when I don't plant stuff) it stay warm into January - I kick myself for not having planted stuff.
This year the onions replaced the summer squash into the winter - guess what; we have winter.
Fine, I will have an early crop in spring. Maybe.

Really, I have enough of space if to be efficient. 
Multi-crop, vertical crop, rotating crops, etc, etc. 
Potatoes grow fine in between raspberry bushes; 
In fact, my raspberry patch needs moved badly and has been a wasted space.
I may as well do a leap year of potatoes in place of faltering raspberries. 
Right in the backyard (let the neighbors enjoy the view - haha, this is my backyard).

Anyway, the honest, medium size, chem-free potato is just a different animal (people should try).
Shredded potato/zucchini pancakes - kids love them with sour cream.
I should try honey on them and see. Good idea, GG.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> yes........
> not only did they make it, when I brushed the snow off them a week later they were putting stores in to the combs...
> yes it costs 2X-3x normal sugar, but they will take it (in the cold) almost as fast as liquid feed (when its warm enuff) and will prefrantaly use it.


I was surprised to see how the bees preferred dry sugar over liquid feed in spring time.
All way to our crappy May (where you have dandelions peeking from under the snow - way too often).
Guess what - no one is talking much - the dry sugar needs no warming up.
Just recently occurred to me. 
Everyone will say - bees will not take cold liquid. Doh.
But - what everyone should say - the dry feeds needs NO warming - this is a huge contest difference.
Big deal when running the energy starving nucs. 
You know - eating requires energy. Doh. 
The less energy it requires to eat - the better.
And that was bees do on this picture.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Yep, it's nearly January weather! Not below zero here yet but in the single digits once or twice. I got sugar on my hives and put insulation in the top box. See if this works better. Can't work worse than last year! I hadn't understood how dangerous moisture is.


Good luck then.
I will hold back the dry feed until later, to spend the time on the worthwhile units.
Some units will need it - for sure.
Once it is on, kinda a nuisance to get around it.


----------



## GregB

> #1 - the base (backyard)
> #2 - secondary base (the bus stop acquaintance property - 1/2 mile from the base)
> #3 - private preserve/farmstead (2-3 miles away)
> #4 - private farmstead (5-6 miles away)
> #5 - private preserve (5-6 miles away)
> #6 - commercial farm (2-3 miles away)


OK, the #1.

So, lost the over-wintered anchor in my 20-frame resource. 
Bad.
I guess, the open-mated red-dotted daughter of my line originator, yellow-dotted queen (rest in peace) turned no good.
Diluted by some almond drone.
Classic mite crash.
I found the poor thing - cold, dead, and alone - in an empty hive after few first cold nights (save for a handful frozen scatted bees).
A not careful observer would proclaim - abscond!
BS. Not an abscond, just look around for the dead queen.
I was observing this hive for a couple of months now and was pretty sure - it was just fading.
But, not after they put up lots and lots of stores AFTER the flyback splitting - a fine queen, just did not mate well. 
Open mating - not much I could do there.
Classic mite crash, as described by grozzie very well (where credit is due - it is due).
So, that.
















The good.
I got myself ~15 jumbo frames of excellent honey and bee bread for myself (and the bees - already gave away some).
Lots of natural comb to measure, study, and recycle. At my pace.
Tons of propolis to harvest - again - totally chem-free. Good stuff.
All of this is perfectly stored just as-is - in the chest hive. 
Perfect winter storage. Nothing to do for me.

And - I pulled off 3 healthy looking (so far) nucs from the dead queen.
Thanks for that. 
I really hope these queens got cross-pollinated by my other, BETTER line (for a different story - yards #2 and #3)

She did everything right, the best she could, and went down quietly and in timely fashion. 
Perfect end for the circumstances.
But she was only a bug. So that.

I made sure no robbing occurred - those masking tapes work fine as I was saying.


----------



## GregB

So enough of the eulogy.
#1

One unit down. RIP. But as MSL says - right down my alley.
I am set for this year - a very good crop (been giving away some gifts were they are due).
Lots of bees still - need fewer but better ones.
I don't need 17 units in my life.

Like I said, I got caught with my .... tools scattered down and out ... pretty much everything is still outside, at least covered and off the ground (these pics were done before the Halloween).








4 units at my base camp.

A very strong split sitting and a solid (but horribly looking) long 16-frame hive.
A green-dotted daughter of the deceased queen.
They are really sitting reduced to 6 jumbo frames (all other frames are out or behind the follower boards - just for storage).
These guys are really big into robbing - will see if they picked up anything or not somewhere.
They were always actively "foraging" for something even when nothing left.
Just stealing stuff, I imagine.








My wintering box - 3 nucs inside.
Each on 4-5 jumbo frames.
The one in the middle (the white nuc) is brought in from the yard #4 (did not have time to build anymore equipment).
But that is what the wintering box for.














(look inside; I don't keep the lids on the nucs inside as pictured; just burlap covers and free laying blankets do fine).
An empty nuc hive standing next to the wintering box - three of these go inside.
The wintering box is from scavenged plywood, cardboard/foam insulation inside.

The White nuc in the middle.
A project that resulted from a single frame with a spare QC taped onto the comb.
When she mated, I shook some bees from the originating hive (probably dead by now) to boost them a couple of times (surely, shook some mites along).
Whatever, they look fine as of the last check.
I need to move the white nuc away from here as soon as I can in spring - if they make it.
Probably highly mite susceptible bees. 
Otherwise, good carnie-looking bees. Good material to split-manage, Mel D style.
Open-mated but not in my own mating zone.

The Pink and the Blue queens are mated in my own area - where should have been a good presence of desired drones from several known sources.
Fingers crossed for these to turn out well.
I really like the Blue - pollen hoarders to the very end.
Good push back to the sister robbers.
The Pink - that funny September-mated queen - just curious how she turned out.
I did that bee jailing project around the yards - so to boost the Pink nuc.
They look fine.

So that's the base camp.

I also got heating radiators I made last year - I can warm the nucs in the backyard box it any worth it.
Last year I stupidly lost a very good queen in an out yard.
Should have brought those two frames with a handful of bees in between and warmed them up with a radiator.
It was March too - very worthy time to save the survivors that late.
Well, I did not find a queen and counted her dead and let them under.
Only later, I did find her in that tiny cluster - a terrible queen spotter at that. 
Terrible spotter, when it really counted.
That one was on me.

Try to sleep again!


----------



## GregB

And here you go..
With my boy's help we finally got around to test a sample of honey from 2018 crop.
It is dark and it is still very much liquid, going into the second year - typical for non-floral honey.
To compare, my 2019 crop July honey is already turning thick, just after 2-3 months.
I lost two very good units to a terrible diarrhea in March of 2019 (because they had lots of dark late honey and could not fly out to defecate due to the weather).
To the left - dark 2018 honey with high contents of non-floral component in it.
The center - pure water as a reference.
To the right - light 2019 honey with little to none of the non-floral components.
I did a basic, alcohol testing using 95% grain alcohol (Everclear).
The non-floral honey really is around; be aware.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> And here you go..


Neat experiment, GregV. I suppose when you are talking about 'non-floral' you are referring to honeydew?

I read through your recent apiary updates this morning, and it sounds like you have a lot going on- sorry for the dead-out.

Here's hoping you get more sleep tonight!

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Neat experiment, GregV. I suppose when you are talking about 'non-floral' you are referring to honeydew?
> 
> I read through your recent apiary updates this morning, and it sounds like you have a lot going on- sorry for the dead-out.
> 
> Here's hoping you get more sleep tonight!
> 
> Russ


Russ, I am surprised by how little attention is paid to the non-floral honeys in general here (a very common topic with Ukraine/Russia beeks).
Indeed, if you don't have a harsh and long winter - that is a less of an issue (how may beeks in the US don't care/unaware of the issue).
Also, if a large volume of artificial feed is practiced - that actually mitigates the non-floral honey issue - you basically dilute/replace the potentially bad natural honey, by less harmful winter feed - sugar.

But the last winter for me, anything was a factor (4 months - no pooping outside).
The worst yet, the worst weather came at the end when the bees would be trying to brood (and eat more).

So, while this is not a conclusive finding, I have determined the presence of non-floral honey in my area (in the "close-enough" kitchen chemistry lab - borrowed from a kid).
While the non-floral honey is present AND the winter prevents the bees from regular pooping for a long stretch of time - the non-floral honey can kill (or contribute to the kill).

The non-floral honey is really a large array of various sweet substances collected by the bees from sources other than the flowers (location dependent).
This is not just the aphid poop (commonly called the honey-dew honey).
This can also be sweet sap excreted by the many deciduous trees as well as evergreens. 
I observed few weeks ago a feeding frenzy on a white pine by my base #2 - lots of wasps and yellow jackets were just swarming - collecting the pine sap from the needles. 
Only one example - late season YJ activity is an unmistakable indicator of something sweet present.
I think I took a picture - if I actually did - will post a picture.

PS: yeah, the dead-out; not a show-stopper - redundancy in action.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> The non-floral honey is really a large array of various sweet substances collected by the bees from sources other than the flowers (location dependent).
> This is not just the aphid poop (commonly called the honey-dew honey)..


Good write-up, GregV. I appreciate the information.

It's getting cold around here, so I imagine it must be downright frigid up in your neck of the woods...


----------



## GregB

Frigid it is.
I think this year we had record snow fall for the.... October.


The Halloween Winter continues.
Really is winter here.
I rushed around today and threw blankets all on all my bees. 
Down to single digits F the next few nights.

Also found two more deadouts 
(one has plenty of honey - good - mites did them in; the other, well, got robbed out - don't know what is up with them - got too dark to look through).
Down to 15 units.

A couple more, I think, should go down rather soon.

Then the number should stabilize at 13 or so - and we hunker down for the real deal (whatever the winter brings this season).
All of these 13 look healthy enough, if some on a smaller size.
This deep freeze (for November) is actually pretty good at weeding out junk.
Sometimes we have second dandelion flow in November (now, that is bad).

Fetching the kids today:


----------



## GregB

> #1 - the base (backyard)
> #2 - secondary base (the bus stop acquaintance property - 1/2 mile from the base)
> #3 - private preserve/farmstead (2-3 miles away)
> #4 - private farmstead (5-6 miles away)
> #5 - private preserve (5-6 miles away)
> #6 - commercial farm (2-3 miles away)


#4 
Was that prime swarm that landed on my porch mid June.
OK - dead.
I suppose I could have made a redundant split with them.
Well, decided to keep them as a honey resource and test them through the winter.
Honey-wise - OK.
Winter-wise - mites did them in short order. 
At least I had a good harvest from them; and still a lot of honey and bee bread left.
Left the hive as-is today (too freezing windy - fingers were not moving anymore).
I should tape the hive shot from the robbers, in case of a warm up.
The log trap brought in zero swarms. 
Should move it away from the main hive stands.
So for now, the yard #4 is an empty place holder again.
Rent - a peanut butter jar of honey.


----------



## GregB

> #1 - the base (backyard)
> #2 - secondary base (the bus stop acquaintance property - 1/2 mile from the base)
> #3 - private preserve/farmstead (2-3 miles away)
> #4 - private farmstead (5-6 miles away)
> #5 - private preserve (5-6 miles away)
> #6 - commercial farm (2-3 miles away)


#3

Found a robbed out dead (the hive with blue markings).
Last time I checked - it felt as if they fighting back vigorously.
I taped them in and left.
Well, the issues were bigger, obviously.
No idea what happened - too dark and cold to bother with an inspection.
The interesting point - this hive has meshed walls with the shavings in them (the bio-walls).
Will dissect when/if warms up a bit.

The other two units look healthy and set well.
So two live units here.

All three were daughters of my #1 queen.
June anti-swarming splits.
These are all hybrid super-deep bottom/standard supers above.
Will need to revise the management in them next year.
Rent - a large peanut butter jar.


----------



## Litsinger

Lots of action in your apiaries, GregV. So, what does that put your count at now?

I am recognizing that as we broke several records down here for cold weather, this is normal operations for you- tougher to keep bees for sure (at least as regards overwintering).


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> So, what does that put your count at now?.


15/19.

That max # 19 is of course is a very nominal # as it includes nucs at pretty fragile state I had along the way while expanding.
But let it be 19.
On the other hand - I lost 4 units so far - ALL lost units were very strong units UNTIL they were no more.
And so, having strong units in August says nothing of their fate in November.

Two of the 15 units are not really viable IMO (including the log hive test project).

Will be 13 eventually.
At that point - I don't count anyone out - any of the remaining 13 should be good enough to winter through.
I also should be a better job than last winter (and the winter maybe a little milder too).

I still need to do a brief on my base #2 - the best yard really.
When have time.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> That max # 19 is of course is a very nominal # as it includes nucs at pretty fragile state I had along the way while expanding.
> But let it be 19.


I suppose on the bright side you are a victim of your own success in queen rearing this summer- that's something encouraging to carry into future years to figure out how to build your nucs up and overwinter well for sustainable operations.

On your big colonies that have failed, did you notice any varroa trouble this Fall before they collapsed? By doing mite drop counts I feel that I have *some* indication of mite levels but am always mindful that late summer appearances can be deceiving. 

At least for me here last year, the first stretch of cold weather was a good varroa weed-out event.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I suppose on the bright side you are a victim of your own success in queen rearing this summer- that's something encouraging to carry into future years to figure out how to build your nucs up and overwinter well for sustainable operations.
> 
> On your big colonies that have failed, did you notice any varroa trouble this Fall before they collapsed? By doing mite drop counts I feel that I have *some* indication of mite levels but am always mindful that late summer appearances can be deceiving.
> 
> At least for me here last year, the first stretch of cold weather was a good varroa weed-out event.


I don't do mite counts (primarily because I really am always on the go; even then - I will not treat no matter the count - I guess the counts would be a useful piece of the info).
Even then - mite # has no direct, clear, and immediate effect on bees with certain levels of resistance (resistance of different origins and nature, to clarify even further).
Yes - it does have clear effect on highly susceptible bees - such bees I don't care for and don't need them.

The 3 out of the 4 dead - clearly mite kills.
The other - I will look when can - to document the eco-walls, the cause of death, etc.

In general, I am yet to see a smallish nuc to be killed by mites (the wintering is the problem to be solved with these).
If I figure out the formula to consistently over-winter enough mid/late summer nucs - I don't really care of any calamities then - these nucs in general are very healthy (just small - which can be mitigated by a variety of ways).

The large units I find (especially, the overwintered units or prime swarms) are likely to be mite-killed - IF they go that way - good riddance as for me (especially, if I manage to keep their stores). Pretty much sometimes in September I already knew who are the suspects to be mite-killed and tried to mitigate potential robbing of those.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> In general, I am yet to see a smallish nuc to be killed by mites (the wintering is the problem to be solved with these).


GregV: I hope you are able to get this system down to a fine science. I expect this would open up a lot of genetic opportunities for you.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV: I hope you are able to get this system down to a fine science. I expect this would open up a lot of genetic opportunities for you.


Thinking back - last year I made two small late nucs from a captured commercial swarm.
Those were actually mite-infested junk units - took two Russian queens down with them.

But those were an exception and a learning case - to avoid using untested swarms for anything worthwhile.

I have created lots of nucs from my own lines - they never had classic mite burn down.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> ... avoid using untested swarms for anything worthwhile.


This is where I think you are smart to have multiple yards- this crossed my mind when I brought home trap-outs this year... you never know what you might be unwittingly introducing into your yard.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> This is where I think you are smart to have multiple yards- this crossed my mind when I brought home trap-outs this year... you never know what you might be unwittingly introducing into your yard.


For what it is worth, both captured swarms this year got a whole yard to keep to themselves. 
Alone.
One died.
The other is looking very good.

Well, I shook some bees out of the "dead" hive in September, when trying to boost my funny, September-mated queen (when I went around stealing some bees into my "jails").
Figured, not much to loose there.
They die because they have not enough bees OR they die by a mite OR they actually screw it all and live on.
And so far it looks as if the September queen chose to "live on".
Fingers crossed - she mated the right drones.

BUT, the real damage occurs when you share mite infested brood.
In the past, this is how I killed good queens - the brood sharing from untested swarms is stupidity deserving some punishment (which I got).
Shaking few bees from a honey super is less fatal (not ideal, but should NOT be fatal).


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> BUT, the real damage occurs when you share mite infested brood.


Thanks for the feedback, GregV. I am going to definitely keep this admonition in mind for future retrieval.


----------



## GregB

Had 2-3 hours to visit my base #2 (before the rainy mix drove me away).

Among other things - opened up the test log hive.
Bees appear fine; looks as if they even stored some honey (which can not be much for such a small cavity - four Land medium frames barely fit inside)
OK, I decided they deserve my help wintering if they made it this far.

I am curious to see how well this small cluster can do in a simulate tree cavity and so:
- packed dry sugar to the max into the very limited space above the top bars (to extend the food supply to approximate what a normal tree dwellers would have)
- insulated the junky board lid with sandwiched XPS/Reflectix - that should make the lid thermal resistance about R5-R6 (to compensate for the missing tree trunk above the cavity)
- stapled wind break (to compensate for the non-perfect sims between the log pieces)
- obstructed the upper entrance to reduce drafting some (the combs inside are warm way also)

This should do it.
If this simulated log works - technically, it should demonstrate how smallish feral bee colonies can survive on very little food stores IF the nest configuration is optimized.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> If this simulated log works - technically, it should demonstrate how smallish feral bee colonies can survive on very little food stores IF the nest configuration is optimized.


This is a neat set-up and experiment, GregV. Thanks for keeping us posted on this one. I hope for their part that they are able to make it.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> This is a neat set-up and experiment, GregV. Thanks for keeping us posted on this one. I hope for their part that they are able to make it.


And btw, this time I used some sticks to obstruct the upper entrance (bees still can get out and back inside, just less wind blows around).
Previously, I used a piece of fabric to do the same - some animal pulled it out (I imagine a squirrel or mice were investigating; the same happened to a paper plug used before the fabric).
So very definitely, the animals are trying to gain access inside through the 1" round entrances - too bad, they are facing 1/2" metal screen that is stapled inside the cavity.
Metal is a must, so to minimize the death-by-a-varmint variable.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> And btw, this time I used some sticks to obstruct the upper entrance (bees still can get out and back inside, just less wind blows around).


Now that you mention it, I can see the sticks in the photos- I'm pulling for this colony.


----------



## GregB

Michael Bush said:


> The outline:
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm
> 
> More details:
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beessctheories.htm
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnotreatments.htm
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm


OK, pulled out of your "outline" (there are more talks in that list of the "four", but letting it slide):


> let's look at just these four issues: comb; genetics; natural food; and no treatments.


Here is my hive, a classic mite-kill as of a month ago, where all of the above are a "check".
With the original genetics being watered down, I presume, due to open mating - how do you address this, btw? do the TF-wanna-be people even understand the issue?:








So I follow as close as I can your "four issues" (it does not hurt); I have implemented all of these.
The importance of the genetics must be made *in bold and in italics* - not just mixed in casually as-if equal to the notorious 4.9mm rule (different subject).

But you know how I manage to stay afloat?
I just play the common sense business investment game - setup the yards in a distributed and redundant fashion, and propagate aggressively, and am mentally ready to absorb some loss (a significant loss).

I'd probably sink by now if I did not follow the common sense risk management.
If anything, the risk management should be at the top of the list - I'd say maybe #1.
Some people pay serious money for the bees and stuff, you know.
If you don't care/unable to manage risk, why bother?
Where do you advise this in the 640 pages; really is hard to find?


All in all - after all the time and expertise and the loss accumulated over the time, I wish I had one page of *well defined sequential steps with identified dependencies AND in readable format *in front of me to follow and implement to have a reasonable success in CF. 
It is an algorithm.
The algorithms are built on a sequence of the defined steps, and the dependencies of those step, and the pre-requisits to be in place for the algorithm to succeed in the end.

Been learning the hard way where need to separate noise from the few essentials (which is fine and fun, as it is for me personally).
But why was all of these needed? 

I wish people around me just took that one page of tested and cross-tested, easy to understand, common sense TF instructions and implemented it.
No. There is no such list.
It causes me to keep pulling against the continuous stream of imported junk dump and the non-resistant local stock also.
It costs a lot of time and resource to do this.
Again, I am a masochistic person to a degree and enjoy the torture (if you are a long-distance runner, you have to be) - but this is one reason people don't practice TF in volume.
Some shame.


----------



## GregB

> #1 - the base (backyard)
> #2 - secondary base (the bus stop acquaintance property - 1/2 mile from the base)
> #3 - private preserve/farmstead (2-3 miles away)
> #4 - private farmstead (5-6 miles away)
> #5 - private preserve (5-6 miles away)
> #6 - commercial farm (2-3 miles away)


#2.

My best yard this season by far - 6 active units - all Thanks to my best overwintered queen.
The #1 queen - the only overwintered descendant of my best line (in the open mating conditions; unfavorable too, due to the onslaught of the imports).

She spawned off 8 splits (6 are going still) and still managed to load the hive with honey (including a full honey super for me also) and tons of newly drawn comb (ALL foundaton-less).
This queen I want around for some years - all fingers and all toes are crossed.

As I was auditing the project in terms of winter setups - I decided to just leave the #1 alone as is.
These bees have it all propolised so well and solid - it will be shame to break apart their town.
Only moved a couple of empty frames away; inserted a follower board at the end of the honey storage; done.
They should have it all figured out for the winter; no need for my "help"; will winter on 12-13 frames or thereabout (did not count).
Bees were unhappy already with me futzing about; these bees do pay attention - the best bee.






















Saving for the test log hive (that originated from some almond junk) - the rest of the units on this yards are July splits spawned off the #1.
This is probably the best daughter - well packed 8 or 9 jumbo frames.
She is sitting right next to her #1 Mom in a junky plywood temp 10-frame hive (will insulate some).








Then a couple of OK splits (on 4 and 5 jumbo frames).
Both daughters of #1 have a good chance I feel (the 4-framer took some mating games with the second runs at it and re-combines; need to practice redundant mating next year).
Dumped the remaining almond junk out of the good hive, and gave these deserving two a better home (side-by-side they live).








And finally, a dark-horse.
A very strange mated daughter of #1 (not laying too well, possibly due to several close-family matings; took a while to get going; I donno).
On the other hand, they are alive and so deserve a chance to carry the genetics forward.
She is good at running and hiding too, just like her feisty Grandma (impossible to find).
Also dumped the remaining almond junk bees in here - a questionable boost, am totally aware, but a boost was really needed - and washed my hands off.


----------



## GregB

The dark-horse home - just an improved temp hive - need extra insulating too.








And the last unit here - the notorious test "tree" (when disassembled for transport and bee-less).








And as it sits now, quite a natural setting:


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> No. There is no such list.


GregV:

Based on what I read, I think this is TF boiled-down into a slogan. It appears to be highly-dependent upon so many converging factors that I am convinced that no such 'cookbook' approach exists. 

That said, it seems that there are good apicultural fundamentals that serve well (or at least do no harm) regardless of ones' management approach- but probably none qualify as a law in the strict scientific sense, at least in terms of conferring TF success.

Just my opinion, so discount it accordingly.

Keep the interesting and thought-provoking discussions coming.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> ..... I am convinced that no such 'cookbook' approach exists.
> 
> Russ


Well, Clayton Huestis right next door posted a very comprehensive list (one pager in a readable format).

I like it and this is more what I am trying to formulate also - an general algorithm (with the prerequisites, dependencies, and the execution sequence).
Suppose I already know my version of such algorithm - will give one more winter though!

Such outline can be expanded as wide and as deep as one wants.
But - it contains a very good skeleton - the main thing (I made my proposed addition of the feasibility study need).


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Well, Clayton Huestis right next door posted a very comprehensive list (one pager in a readable format).


No argument from me, GregV. It does seem like one good way to approach TF.

I for one am routinely reminded that all beekeeping is local... or is that politics? 😉

Best of success to you as your further develop and refine your approach.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> No argument from me, GregV. It does seem like one good way to approach TF.
> 
> I for one am routinely reminded that all beekeeping is local... or is that politics? ��
> 
> Best of success to you as your further develop and refine your approach.


Many of the details are - local.
The general approach is, well, general.

Just like in my line of business - I don't know much at all about Oracle database systems, pretty much zero knowledge of the details (I am on SQL Server).
Well, I guarantee, Oracle professionals pursue exact same problems that I do - failure handling, disaster recovery, data protection, etc, etc.
Very much exactly same general problems we can discuss and understand each other.

Then we go away and implement our own lines of code in our own languages using different tools - to get the same goals accomplished.

So, really, "all politics are local"... wait, or is it beekeeping local? 
Anyway, some of these good sounding cliches developed rather a long tooth to them and they are limited.
Most any narrow scope usually works within a wider, general context.
Beekeeping does not escape this generality.

General algorithms about the same - general (inputs into the algorithms can vary situation-dependent; internal implementation of the algorithms can be different, as long as they are working correctly per the external specs).


----------



## GregB

OK, since my eco-wall hive died by the mites, I was finally able to dissect it last weekend.

- I can see how the open mating works
-- out of the three sisters sitting next to each other - one crashed and burned (good - high susceptibility needs to be terminated and done with) - the other two look just fine and I am optimistic
-- so NOT letting the very basic selection to weed out the undesirable trait == is not taking the advantage of the very basic and simple approach - the self-selection

- I will post the 12 frames in the exact order as in the hive (starting from the entrance corner as I practice corner entrances - not cold/not warm, but rather both to a variable degree)
-- these are very similar to totally un-managed combs - and the bee spacing is largely irrelevant as I was saying since the nest is contained WITHIN the framework 
-- the nest does not extend much beyond the frames-proper; above practice fabric covers; below they are free to terminate the combs as they see fit - connecting combs to the floor is not my problem.
-- a very good demo how the natural comb works in approximately natural setting - the very static, not-vertically-moving ceiling/deeply going combs - bees are free to organize the architecture as they see fit
-- I did have a honey super above in this case, the queen never came up into it - as I wanted; but this does not change the final results - not a good bee

- I will also post the pictures of the eco-walls so to demonstrated how the natural propolizing works (as opposed to industrial un-propolized wood surfaces - these pictures are a perfect demo)
-- also, I will again challenge the idea of bees somehow knowingly disinfecting their home as if bees "think" - non-sense I say - what bees are doing - conditioning the non-ergonomic surfaces so make them easier walk on (very simple idea - the same as the humas prefer clear floors to walk on - not piles of trash to trip over) 
-- hence the already planed wooden wall are ALREADY comfortable enough to walk on; of course, the bees also caulk the nooks and cracks as the basic energy-saving approach.

- also the pictures show well how in the sufficiently ergonomic dwelling (i.e. deep enough) the bees are not concerned with the notorious "floor cleaning"; *after the entire summer* - the floor remained full of shavings and trash - totally uncleaned - bees will not do unnecessary and resource-expensive activity

Started taking apart:








Floor covered in trash (the dead bees included); 
The floor was even very moist at some places due to thick layer of trash being there all summer - this was a very timely mess cleanup, from my prospective (I still care my hives don't just rot!)


----------



## GregB

Frame #1







Frame #2







Frame #3







Frame #4 (the only frame in this set with the horizontal bars - and how they configure it)







Frame #5


----------



## GregB

Frame #6







Frame #7







Frame #8 (this is the only frame that has reinforced wax conventional foundation in it - just because I got this frame for free elsewhere and just used it as-is when in a pinch); they still made few holes in it







Frame #9







Frame #10


----------



## GregB

Finally the last frames (the furthers from the entrance).
These are from the few proper full-frames that I built originally and even wired. 
Full span natural comb build by the bee specs.
Frame #11







Frame #12


----------



## GregB

And the walls show a very distinct difference between heavily propolised mesh with the shavings (a shiny propolise film) vs. the conventional boards (hardly touched).
All in all - make the wall rough and the bees will propolize them - a no-brainer.
Will all this propolise save the bees from the varroa - of course NOT - also a no-brainer.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> And the walls show a very distinct difference between heavily propolised mesh with the shavings (a shiny propolise film) vs. the conventional boards (hardly touched).
> All in all - make the wall rough and the bees will propolize them - a no-brainer.
> Will all this propolise save the bees from the varroa - of course NOT - also a no-brainer.
> View attachment 52661
> 
> View attachment 52663
> 
> View attachment 52665
> 
> View attachment 52667


nice seeing the layout of a hive , even if it did not make the winter. Looks like some nice comb for spring splits. 12 frames is a nice number, 3, 4 or 6 splits , can give each split a couple combs with some stores. Or add a frame of stores in early spring to a big hive needing it. Nice post thanks. I'll perhaps share a dead out of Lang so the difference, or non difference, can be seen.
GG
GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> nice seeing the layout of a hive , even if it did not make the winter. Looks like some nice comb for spring splits. 12 frames is a nice number, 3, 4 or 6 splits , can give each split a couple combs with some stores. Or add a frame of stores in early spring to a big hive needing it. Nice post thanks. I'll perhaps share a dead out of Lang so the difference, or non difference, can be seen.
> GG
> GG


Sure, GG.
Do share.
I'd like to look.

I really don't cry over few *early *dead outs - nothing but good comes out of them (late dead-outs are bad, to compare)
- sub-standard bees out-select themselves (good riddance)
- lots of resources become available to me and the remaining bees (this is how I harvest perga, for example; now is the perga harvest time).
- great learning opportunity to study many aspects of the bee life

It has been a good year.
Gave away lots of honey as "payments" and just gifts.
We have lots of honey to ourselves - should last a year and beyond.
Have lots of honey still unharvested - just kept in the hives for now and will be re-allocated in spring as needed.
Last year was bad, to compare (lots of very late dead-outs due to excessively harsh winter; good enough bees got lost; lots resources wasted).

Bending backwards to save sub-standard bees - waste of time and resources and not really helpful for anyone.


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> Sure, GG.
> 
> It has been a good year.
> Gave away lots of honey as "payments" and just gifts.
> We have lots of honey to ourselves - should last a year and beyond.
> Have lots of honey still unharvested - just kept in the hives for now and will be re-allocated in spring as needed.
> Last year was bad, to compare (lots of very late dead-outs due to excessively harsh winter; good enough bees got lost; lots resources wasted).
> 
> Bending backwards to save sub-standard bees - waste of time and resources and not really helpful for anyone.


Glad you had a good year. I was unable to harvest more than a taste. It was simply too wet this Fall and the bees hardly were able to fly at all after mid-August. I peeked into my 4 hives today and all are alive. They are busy eating the sugar I put on. Hoping for good survival since I've been making nuc boxes. Slow process without power tools except a drill. Hand cutting nice, neat 90 degree corners is hard.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Glad you had a good year..... Slow process without power tools except a drill. Hand cutting nice, neat 90 degree corners is hard.


Thanks AR.

Check out B-Friday deals for a decent table saw.
If anything, a table saw is a very worthwhile tool - most all hand-cutting can be "table-sawed" with a very good precision.
Good quality miter gauge is a very worthwhile addition to the saw, if getting the saw.
(I hate the cheap miter gauge that came with my portable Bosch; 
...........a very good saw/a piece of junk gauge that really must be replaced).

I'd say the very first long hive I built with this Bosch from scraps paid for the saw. 
The rest were the bonus.
(if you see the pricing for the long hives - eye popping, like here - http://horizontalhive.com/buy-hive-bees/swarm-trap-top-bar-sale.shtml)

If in a pinch, a regular 15 amp circular saw is an OK option to check into.
I got my 15 amp Hitachi from about 14 years ago when I built a deck with it.
A very good side-arm (especially for cutting the standard size plywood/particle board for a single-man crew).

Cutting by hand..... well, I have done my time.


----------



## AR1

I rarely spend money on much of anything! Convincing myself to buy hand tools is hard enough. I am about $500 into this hobby so far and doubt I will spend much more, unless I get to the point I can sell nucs or something.


----------



## JWPalmer

AR1 said:


> unless I get to the point I can sell nucs or something.


With a table saw, you can make nuc boxes out of Advantech, and the bottom boards and lids from dimensional lumber and plywood for less than $15. These are year round nucs almost as good as store bought. Or, you can make a seasonal nuc entirely out of plywood for less than $10. The savings add up quick.


----------



## GregB

JWPalmer said:


> With a table saw, you can make nuc boxes out of Advantech, and the bottom boards and lids from dimensional lumber and plywood for less than $15. These are year round nucs almost as good as store bought. Or, you can make a seasonal nuc entirely out of plywood for less than $10. The savings add up quick.


Especially if you make a point of never buying wood materials or bees at all.
The entire beekeeping project turns into buying few tools.

Free materials acquisition is my another hobby. 
A fun "sport". 
Usually the issue is the storage, not shortage of material.


----------



## GregB

Since this came up recently, I'd comment on the non-bee bugs present in my hives.
I got lots and I don't care.
Especially I don't mind the ants.

Ants routinely live in some of my nucs and hives (cause they love the burlap inner-covers).
Feels as if they ignore some hives, but yet just love the others.
I shake them out, brush them out of they way, and do my work.
They return back.
And?
Nothing.

In fact, I welcome the ants to live over the top bars.
Those buggers get into little holes where the bees can not - guess what - what is good for the ants, that is bad for moths and beetles.
Outside of getting in my way, I don't care for the ants.

These buggers here (see the pic, taken in August sometime) went overboard some and I had to brash them out so I could do my work.







Guess what, a week later they were right back with all their babies, and we did the thing all over again
And again...
These large forest ants allow a good picture, so I took a couple.
I never even cared to attempt picturing the little ants - there are just there, in the woodwork pretty much everywhere.
The ants do not matter to me, outside of some inconvenience.
Bees don't seem to care either.

To be fair, the large forest ants have gotten few silly bees killed that were trying to get into the ant nest (the bees should mind their own business too, just the same).


----------



## GregB

I was asked about this book - "Shimanovski, Methods of Beekeeping, 1923"

Don't remember where I got it and ain't gotten the time to look for it now (lots of post-TGiving mess to clean).
It is available, if really needs to be found.

Attaching the PDF that I have been reading. 
Just easier for me.

Get the PDF - auto-translate the index as well as the related subject pointers (in the end) - then auto-translate the pages/chapters of interest.
I can provide quick pointers if needed - the auto-translation can be a mess, I know.
(the proper human translation is serious work for me and it costs).

View attachment шимановский - ме&#.pdf


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> It has been a good year.


GregV:

I appreciated reading the posts about your most recent dead-out and your attendant observations, though I was unable to respond at the time as I was away from my computer.

I also hope that you will post your summary of the Shimanovski text when you complete it- you always bring-out the salient points.

What is your hive count at now?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> I appreciated reading the posts about your most recent dead-out and your attendant observations, though I was unable to respond at the time as I was away from my computer.
> 
> I also hope that you will post your summary of the Shimanovski text when you complete it- you always bring-out the salient points.
> 
> What is your hive count at now?


Hey Russ,
Was still 15 as of the last survey.
Surely it will be fewer, eventually - today being the Dec 2nd.

The Shimanovski text unusually formatted as it runs two context overlaid (takes getting used to).
The first context is represented by a typical table of contents (a typical book index).

The second context is an alternate organization where the entire content is organized by works done - early spring, late spring, summer, the main flow, fall.
This secondary context is marked through entire book by some Latin pointers to that secondary index.
The author did a lot of work just in that because, obviously, this was a laborious manual process in early 1920s.
My favorite part - there are nothing but beekeeper names under each of the particular works' section (basically, who does what and how).

Here is a representative snippet:


> ІІ. Поздняя весна
> а) Увеличение гнезд. Прейс, Вельс, Лайянс, Шелухин, Исаев.
> 5) Определение начала взятка. Цесельс, Брюх.
> в) Спекулятивная подкормка. Сторонники: Алекс, Цесельск., Левиц.,
> Рой, Докуч., Дерн, Ващ., Корж., Метц, Дупл. Противники: Лайянс, Докуч.


My translated version (the names spellings are approximate, I did not bother checking for correctness and consistency; just passing the idea through).
II. Late Spring
a) Expansion of the next. Price, Welsh, Layens, Sheluhin, Isaev.
b) Determining of the flow start. Ceselski, Bruh.
c) Speculative (GV: stimulative?) feeding. 
Proponents: Alex, Ceselcki, Levits, Roy, Dokuchaev, Dernov, Vaschenko, Korzh, Metz, Dullittle. 
Opponents: Layens, Dokuchaev

You can read the book end to end.
OR you can follow the particular person of interest and read the book in selective fashion (HTML pointers would be perfect for this).

Overall, of interest are the discussion of the methods used at the time as those (maybe) applicable/useful today.
Especially of interest is that the Author specifies the equipment used by the subjects of his overviews (including the un-movable frame equipment - by the box; which includes the log-hive management methods)

Probably will take me months (takes some temporal digestion too; some currently obsolete/unused terms)....

Notably, the last 20 years of his life, Vsevolod U. Shimansovki (1866 -1934) was blind but kept working on his projects.
It was a difficult time (the revolution) and yet interesting as it was *before *the Soviets virtually banned all alternative beekeeping systems in favor of artificially selected standard - the Dadant.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Don't remember where I got it and ain't gotten the time to look for it now (lots of post-TGiving mess to clean).
> It is available, if really needs to be found.


Here is one source:
https://www.rusuley.ru/images/Шимановский - Методы пчеловождения (1923).pdf


The entire list of the materials on this site (I commend the website owners - they are in business, but also provide good community service).
https://www.rusuley.ru/poleznye-materialy


----------



## A Novice

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

I'm going to recast this post, to reflect how I read it. Let me know if I have missed the point.

Greg hasn't had a good year as a beekeeper - not a lot of surplus honey, but hasn't had a bad year either.

As a result he has some hives which have plenty of stores for the winter, and large populations, and he isn't planning to do anything with them. He also has some which are small colonies, which may have promise for next year, but which will be challenging to get through the winter.

Looking at this situation, and his diligent laboring all year for very little gain, he recognizes that if the small hives were to die off, and the large hives make it through to spring, he will be pretty much where he started last spring.

However, if the opposite were to occur, he (not the bees) will enjoy the honey stored in the large hives, while whatever isn't harvestable will provide a good start for the small colonies next spring.

And he is thinking that maybe it is better for him if the big colonies collapse soon.

True enough.

However, this is a philosophical, as opposed to a practical observation.

He lives in Dane County, Wisconsin; near the Peoples Republic of Madison. That is about 40 miles west of me, and it is cold here.

Afout 29F (-2C) right now. And it will be that way for several months.

Other than putting on sugar blocks and pollen patties, there isn't much a beekeeper can do to help his bees through the winter. The next 40F (4C)day will most likely be around the first week of march.

So the only appropriate response, it seems to me, is.

"Oh Well. We will see what happens."

I am guessing that the reason for making such a post is to prepare oneself for the tragedy likely to unfold over the coming months.

I lost 4 hives to dysentery two tears ago. I consoled myself that the 80 pounds of usable honey I was able to get from them (avoiding the honey in dark combs) was acceptable in place of having 4 colonies and no honey. 

My observation is that losing any colony of bees hurts. Losing bigger and apparently healthier ones hurts worse. Preparing yourself psychologically for the likely loss of colonies over the winter is something beekeepers do. I prefer denial, myself. But if seeing the good in the bad is your approach, I suppose I should let you have it.

By the way, I meant to say two YEARS ago, but mistyped somehow. I noticed this when re-reading prior to posting. After reflecting, I decided to let it stand.


----------



## A Novice

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



little_john said:


> ... I think it's somewhat delusionary to consider _**** sapiens_ as being outside of, and thus detached from, the evolutionary dynamic ...
> LJ


This is an excellent point I have made several times. There is nothing "unnatural" about human activities, if you take a naturalistic view of things.

This also takes away the ideas of right or wrong, good or evil. Stuff just is. (If you take a strictly naturalistic view of things).

And of course, any purpose other than survival seems meaningless, and survival just is, so it is meaningless as well.

It doesn't seem possible for humans to live that way of course. But spiders and cats manage it just fine.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Here is one source:
> https://www.rusuley.ru/images/Шимановский - Методы пчеловождения (1923).pdf
> 
> 
> The entire list of the materials on this site (I commend the website owners - they are in business, but also provide good community service).
> https://www.rusuley.ru/poleznye-materialy


And of course, I got stuck scanning the books from the very source (like I have nothing else to do - say, do my real job).

Anyway, one thing again stood out to me while scanning a chapter about Prokopovich.
Prokopovich was a loud critic of the bee-culling methods of the time (a large proportion of the colonies was culled - so to harvest the honey - due to the absence of the movable frames). He called for stopping the bee-culling methods.

OK, this is nothing new, but still....
Across Russia of the time, millions upon millions of the colonies were killed annually (the same all across the Eastern/Western Europe at large).
Let me assume, they killed 50% of the hives - at least.
And yet due to the per-annual spring expansion of the colonies - there was never any shortage of the bees.
The obvious drawback was - they kept killing off the BEST colonies so to get the most honey (very ironic).
Still, even this counter-productive and counter-intuitive methods did NOT eliminate the bees and their honey-hoarding behaviors after of *several hundreds of years* of such practices.

Back to my own ways, it is really trivial and obvious to me to keep letting the worst ~50% of my bees to just fail and self-terminate (and use the failures as the harvest opportunity and resource re-distribution).
Then per-annualy in spring to rebuild and expand back to the desired levels.
All the while the WORST colonies will be terminated (only a good thing); and the BEST ones will persist.
All the while, overall population should persist in the long term anyway. 
Granted some catastrophic events are possible (e.g. some wide-scope, fatal pesticide applications - still mitigated by the distributed methods) - I don't really see what is the fuss with the "bees dying" and all the hysteria around the "treat them or they die".

So, really, no point in keeping the WORST bees afloat at all, at the significant expense of time, work, and materials, and artificial long-term stronger mite/weaker bee selection.

Disclaimer: this largely applies to bee-independent hobbyist/small scale beeks (vs. the bee-dependent operators).


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## msl

I think its wrong to think of the "best" being harvested. Often it was ones that didn't swarm a 2nd (or 3rd) time and there for built up . That was undesirable genetics to this type of management, often used in areas with late fall flow, the technic was to have small hives that swarmed a few times a year and the swarms would swarm.(The Welsh had a value and wording for the prime swarm that came form a 2nd cast (Crane 1999) indicating going form 1 to 6+ was a reality.) and then everything would build up on the fall flow
those that were fat, and those light were harvested, putting strong selective pressures to creat a bees that swarmed a few times and then bulit up enough to over winter. One must rember in many places the crop of wax acounted for about 1/2 the beekeepers take home
just saying what we see as "best" threw eyes used to modern equipment and management styles was not so with the past ways 



> Back to my own ways, it is really trivial and obvious to me to keep letting the worst ~50% of my bees to just fail and self-terminate (and use the failures as the harvest opportunity and resource re-distribution).
> Then per-annualy in spring to rebuild and expand back to the desired levels.
> All the while the WORST colonies will be terminated (only a good thing); and the BEST ones will persist..


yes and no and at last look your 2 year advrage lose 76% not 50%

but for fun lets lose 50% and split what lives.... what happens? say we are selecting for survival and this matters as 50% is near the US TF advrage losses for the sub 50 hive club








oh so the 16% poor performers are gone, good riddance, but you very likey could have culled them as they were likely obvious 

you lost 1/2 of your "advrage" bees , but rember they are statistically the same as the rest of the advrage so 68% of what overwintered is not any better then 68% of what died (chance etc), meaning letting them raise queens or drones get you no were but were you were 
to make any progress you need to propagate at least from another standard deviation forward(top 14%), if not 2+ ( top 2% or less-witch is near impossible of a small operation) that would out 

Your ways work for you, just don't mistake them for selection or genetic progress. Rember in the feral world the trait of "alive" come spring takes 66% annual losses to keep it slected


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## GregB

msl said:


> I think its wrong to think of the "best" being harvested. Often it was ones that didn't swarm a 2nd (or 3rd) time and there for built up . That was undesirable genetics to this type of management, often used in areas with late fall flow, the technic was to have small hives that swarmed a few times a year and the swarms would swarm.(The Welsh had a value and wording for the prime swarm that came form a 2nd cast (Crane 1999) indicating going form 1 to 6+ was a reality.) and then everything would build up on the fall flow
> those that were fat, and those light were harvested, putting strong selective pressures to creat a bees that swarmed a few times and then bulit up enough to over winter. One must rember in many places the crop of wax acounted for about 1/2 the beekeepers take home
> just saying what we see as "best" threw eyes used to modern equipment and management styles was not so with the past ways
> 
> 
> yes and no and at last look your 2 year advrage lose 76% not 50%
> 
> but for fun lets lose 50% and split what lives.... what happens? say we are selecting for survival and this matters as 50% is near the US TF advrage losses for the sub 50 hive club
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oh so the 16% poor performers are gone, good riddance, but you very likey could have culled them as they were likely obvious
> 
> you lost 1/2 of your "advrage" bees , but rember they are statistically the same as the rest of the advrage so 68% of what overwintered is not any better then 68% of what died (chance etc), meaning letting them raise queens or drones get you no were but were you were
> to make any progress you need to propagate at least from another standard deviation forward(top 14%), if not 2+ ( top 2% or less-witch is near impossible of a small operation) that would out
> 
> Your ways work for you, just don't mistake them for selection or genetic progress. Rember in the feral world the trait of "alive" come spring takes 66% annual losses to keep it slected



MSL, as usually a good post and enough food to chew on.
I will discuss given enough time.



> your 2 year advrage lose 76% not 50%


This is true but - like I said, the overall loss #s are very misleading in that some people somehow assume ALL loss ~ mite-related loss.
Then the "treat the mite" screams.

In reality, for true loss measurement we must very clearly identify WHICH exact loss are we measuring.

In reality the loss is a very heterogeneous phenomenon and includes: 
-operator judgement errors/honest mistakes;
-operator negligence/poor performance;
-bees unfit for the local climate; 
-bees susceptible to pests/infection;
-planned-for-loss (e.g. experimental);
-equipment failures/substandard equipment;
-unfit winter feed (e.g. too much non-floral honey present);
-unusually cold/long winter (even for mostly fit bees);
-various misfortunes;
-other;

More often than not - the loss is a combination of the above factors (each factor having varying weights in each particular instance).

So, last year I had 75% loss (11/15).
(And I think I already discussed this above - too lazy to look now).

These include:
1) 1 - bees highly susceptible to pests (a terrible captured swarm)
2) 2 - operator errors (using the "terrible captured swarm" as a resource for propagation)
3) 1 - operator negligence (could have and should have re-hived bees from leaky equipment mid-winter)
4) 1 - operator negligence (should have placed dry feed sooner, not one week too late)
5) 2 - possibly marginally unfit bees (and/or too much non-floral honey - late winter diarrhea and/or mis-configured equipment preventing mid-winter cleansing)
6) 2 - possibly substandard equipment resulting in frozen clusters (with combination of unusually severe winter, with possible weakening by the mites)
7) 2 - other (I simply can not recall; let us just assume - generic mite kills, so boost the mite factor somewhat).
------------------------
- 11 total

So now - how many did I loose to the pests directly or tangentially?
Maybe 7 units (#1, #2, #6, #7) - tossed in #7 so to include any tangential pest impact contributions.

How many did I loose to the suspected poor local climate fitness?
Maybe 4 units (#5, #6) - notice how #6 already listed twice.

How many did I loose because I am a CF keeping student/an amateur experimenter?
4 units (#2, #6) - #2, #6 again are overlapping (GV: made a change).

How many did I loose because I am a lazy bum?
2 units (#3, #4)

So now, how many units did I lose to the pest again?
I say about 7 units.

That is about* 50% loss *(7/15) and I am already approaching my goals in the "pest-related category".
For sure - this is NOT 75% loss.
This year my hope is to limit the total *heterogeneous *losses to 50% (mainly by improving the wintering methods/management).

The loss classification is very important.
Otherwise, any talks of losses are meaningless.


----------



## msl

loss is loss is loss
We are talking about the trait of winter survival and selection
It dosen't matter weather its mites, poor climate fitness, or that they are poorly adapted to your methods, etc. 

The only reason what caused the loss matters is if you the beekeeper plan to make changes and artificially prop up there stock based on that information... Treat for mites, harvest the fall flow and feed back sugar, build better equipment, etc. Other wise it matters not, the bottom 50% is culled. 

The point was when you lose and advrage 50% on an on going bases and just split, you maintain that 50% advarage. 68% of the hives that lived are no better then 68% of the hives that died. 
To shift a trait, you need to keep that 68% from breeding best way seem to be pinch the queen and replace with daughters from a(the) top performing hive so your start throwing better drones 

at 50% losses "Let them die" doesn't have enough negative selection pressure, "split what lives" doesn't have enough positive selection pressure. Add in foundation less letting the 68% throw drones and its a recipe for getting no were. While your queens this year may not mate with your drones, others will, and 2 years or so down the road they will be sending those genetics back to you.

It takes very little resistance for a swam/split to make its 1st winter, throw drones and swarms/splits come spring and die in the fall/winter. Constant splitting masks resistance and props up stocks as surely as treatments. 
Its most certainly a way to keep bees for those who are after untainted hive products, but its not shifting the trait like many suggest it should, an I feel it has a negative effect on the hives around you


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> loss is loss is loss...


Disagreed.

This is only so IF you have completely uniformed units in each and every possible way in space and time (and all way down to the genes).

Not applicable to my collection at all.
Since I care of some of my losses very little (as opposed to my most valuable bees - for those I do care more) - this immediately should tell you - every single loss case is different and unique - to me it is. And so it is not "loss is loss is loss". 

Loss of experimental "almond" bees is a valuable learning outcome as of me (cause I want to dissect the log hive)..
Heck, I could gas them already and just do it. 
Loss of my mainstream survivors would be painful however.
Are these the same? 
Not to me.

As far as loss #s - I recently got an honest answer from one of the long time, traditional beeks in the area.
Hard to get the honest answers.
Here it is:


> 50% the last two winters. Curiously, my coldest yard last winter did the best.


A lady few miles away (a very good bee customer for some sellers); 
very conventional and tries her best in following the bee-club directions; 
she is at 100% loss the last 5(?) years (she even took a year off).

They treat and I don't, and we are different in hundreds of ways.

Here it is your conventional regiment outcome with no terribly significant difference from my CF approach - I land just between the two with my #s.
We also live too far from each other so to blame each other for our losses - as far as the "negative effect" on each other.
If anyone to blame me - that would be our city mayor (few blocks away) - why, his bees are doing relatively OK (have been - entirely possible thanks to my drone program).

The old beek is proud to show a written history of his bee lines back 15-20 years (well, I don't even live in WI that long).
And yet he's got - 50%.
For all the experience, splitting from the best queens, expertly treating too, I am sure.

Still you call the nature of our losses compatible and the same 
(such generalization is OK for the USDA-type very high level, descriptive stats, but that where it stands - Fed-level reports; these generalized loss stats are useless to me).


----------



## msl

> The old beek is proud to show a written history of his bee lines back 15-20 years (well, I don't even live in WI that long).
> And yet he's got - 50%.
> For all the experience, splitting from the best queens


exactly my point


> entirely possible thanks to my drone program


highly unlikely that your drones are any better


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> exactly my point
> 
> highly unlikely that your drones are any better


By now I am totally confused with your position, MSL.
What is it?

So what is the point of artificially propping the bees anyway?
All you are saying - it does not matter.

So why do YOU graft? 
Why are all those mating nucs?
Why OA treatments?
Why bother and what IS the point?

My drones are NOT imported.
But of course - you are saying it does NOT matter.
The persistent local selective pressure does not matter and the annually imported "almond" bees are just the same.
What?
I am confused.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> ........... Constant splitting masks resistance and props up stocks as surely as treatments.
> Its most certainly a way to keep bees for those who are after untainted hive products, but its not shifting the trait like many suggest it should, an I feel it has a negative effect on the hives around you


I certainly will not breed any super-resistant bees.
Not the goal and not possible.
I have repeated this many, many times.

But, better locally adapted, average bees - why not, possible to do, and that is sufficient.
Even marginally better bee is sufficient to stay afloat.

Running the operation as in "many small, redundant hives" *IS *the method and it resembles natural bee survival model.
This method is indifferent to most any pest/infection/man-made disaster.


----------



## msl

> My drones are NOT imported.
> But of course - you are saying it does NOT matter.


You very well may have one hive with better drones, but your flooding your self out with advrage drones from the 68% of what lived. and If you split your best hive a few ways, you lose the drone production. 



> Running the operation as in "many small, redundant hives" IS the method and it resembles natural bee survival model.
> This method is indifferent to most any pest/infection/man-made disaster.


Yes, the cause of loss doesn't matter, just that it reproduced
But, its a management system (witch works for you!),* not *a selection program as you suggest. 
keep in mind when you split( by that I mean let the bees raise there own, the common pull the queen, let them draw cells, break in to nucs), 40% of the queens you get will have a father that isn't represented in the work force and isn't involved in creating the traits your selecting for. On top of that when you break in to nucs/ cut out cells, the bees don't have an abundance of cells and they don't cull the poorer quality ones, leaving you with a large % of poor quality queens some wear around 50-60% 

So right off the bat splitting with E-queens messes things up.

In my mind the 2 big issues (Falsehoods) in the TF world "My stock/drones are better cause I don't treat" and "spiting what lives will shift traits", for the most part neither are true and more progress

Flip it around
If the treaters are loosing 50% and splitting what lives, shouldn't thier stock be getting better and more resistant as there splitting what lives and the poor genetics die? 
It not
for the same reason its not for TF doing the same thing , not enough selection pressure.

Your taking higher then normal losses for TF in your area and you don't have any hives that have made it threw a 2nd winter and only 3 that have made it one winter (post 424) and yet you feel your "drone program" is improving the neighborhood? 
I think your fooling your self

now if you don't care about stock improvement, keep doing what you have bee doing and you likely will keep getting what you have been getting. I am not saying change your ways (I gave that up a long time ago :lpf just that your methods are unlikely to have the results your predicting ( stock improvement)

keep up the good work !


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Notably, the last 20 years of his life, Vsevolod U. Shimansovki (1866 -1934) was blind but kept working on his projects.
> It was a difficult time (the revolution) and yet interesting as it was *before *the Soviets virtually banned all alternative beekeeping systems in favor of artificially selected standard - the Dadant.


GregV:

Thank you for your detailed reply on this subject- I read your comments with great interest while away from my desktop but failed to respond. 

I always enjoy the biographical sketches of people who pursued their passion despite obstacles- in this particular case it appears that Shimansovki was like Huber in this regard.

Thanks again for the post- I look forward to reading more about these historical observations which will likely still be relevant and insightful to us today.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Down to 14 units (just found one dead today - as expected - regardless of the splitting, these are a very mite-susceptible line - too bad, otherwise a good bee).
At least they did not eat too much into the stores.
I got two more units of this line and these are a suspect too - if survive, probably best to put into honey production next season and just get the best possible proceeds and not much else.

On the good side - just scored myself new location (up to 7 locations again).
A short drive from my kids' schools.
Right next to a large natural area.
The base will be in woods/willow thicket - nice.
Outside of the nature-loving, sustainably-living host person - no people near (always a plus).
A very good deal.
"*7*" has been my lucky number all way around - sticking with it.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> "*7*" has been my lucky number all way around - sticking with it.


Sorry for the deadout, GregV. Glad to hear you found another outyard.

Merry Christmas to you and your family.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Sorry for the deadout, GregV. Glad to hear you found another outyard.
> 
> Merry Christmas to you and your family.
> 
> Russ


It is all good.
Thanks.

Around winter holidays, should have the most worthwhile units still afloat.
Then will be a good time to install selective dry sugar supplements where warranted.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Down to 14 units (just found one dead today - as expected - regardless of the splitting, these are a very mite-susceptible line - too bad, otherwise a good bee).
> At least they did not eat too much into the stores.
> I got two more units of this line and these are a suspect too - if survive, probably best to put into honey production next season and just get the best possible proceeds and not much else.
> 
> On the good side - just scored myself new location (up to 7 locations again).
> A short drive from my kids' schools.
> Right next to a large natural area.
> The base will be in woods/willow thicket - nice.
> Outside of the nature-loving, sustainably-living host person - no people near (always a plus).
> A very good deal.
> "*7*" has been my lucky number all way around - sticking with it.


Congrats Greg, New Yard is always fun to think about.
GG


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Down to 14 units.........


Now is the time to start doing the X-Mas rounds and put down the year-end numbers.

-5.
Down to 9 units - 9/19 (47%).

Out of the 9, one unit is an obvious suspect and a matter of time only (as of week ago) - it is best if they just call it quits and done.

Found my "best" (as I thought) yard - the base #2 - down to a single unit, out of 6 - this single survivor looks healthy.
Also, lost my second (and last) red-mark queen - only green-mark queens left.

This was worse than I expected from this particular yard.
But I guess what do I know about the best/the worst? 
Not much.

The silver-lining, again, even more honey and perga (and reusable combs) at my disposal.
Lots of honey.
It has been an excellent year as far as the crop goes - ultimately what I am after anyway - the clean bee products.


----------



## BigBlackBirds

GregV said:


> Now is the time to start doing the X-Mas rounds and put down the year-end numbers.
> 
> -5.
> Down to 9 units - 9/19 (47%).
> 
> Out of the 9, one unit is an obvious suspect and a matter of time only (as of week ago) - it is best if they just call it quits and done.
> 
> Found my "best" (as I thought) yard - the base #2 - down to a single unit, out of 6 - this single survivor looks healthy.
> Also, lost my second (and last) red-mark queen - only green-mark queens left.
> 
> This was worse than I expected from this particular yard.
> But I guess what do I know about the best/the worst?
> Not much.
> 
> The silver-lining, again, even more honey and perga (and reusable combs) at my disposal.
> Lots of honey.
> It has been an excellent year as far as the crop goes - ultimately what I am after anyway - the clean bee products.


Hi Greg
Do you normally check on hives this time of year? I havent in many many years. In the past we would start to collect up some equipment from dead colonies over the holidays so that would have enough time to work thru all that old comb, paint and replace boxes, etc particularly in the early winter months vs having all of it come into the shop in March and need to be ready to go back out in a short time frame. These days I dont have enough colonies to worry about that much of a time crunch so i just start looking in March when make final count of what overwintered stuff I'm selling vs keeping.

If any of you have kept track of losses over the years I'm curious what you've seen a) from fall until this time of year, b) from 1st of year into say March and c) what final numbers looked like come May or whenever your season really starts. We use to say that 25% of losses happened between fall and beginning of year, 25% happened from January thru March and that whatever your losses were up to that point could be doubled for April/early May depending on when dandelions start. But we never fed so early spring could be tough depending on what fall stores were like and how spring worked itself out. My guess is that the percentages are still about the same for me now as back then. If it would get cold again even at night I just might take a trip around and see how things look but with this warm weather that's not too promising.


----------



## GregB

BigBlackBirds said:


> Hi Greg
> *Do you normally check on hives this time of year? * I havent in many many years. In the past we would start to collect up some equipment from dead colonies over the holidays so that would have enough time to work thru all that old comb, paint and replace boxes, etc particularly in the early winter months vs having all of it come into the shop in March and need to be ready to go back out in a short time frame. These days I dont have enough colonies to worry about that much of a time crunch so i just start looking in March when make final count of what overwintered stuff I'm selling vs keeping.
> 
> If any of you have kept track of losses over the years I'm curious what you've seen a) from fall until this time of year, b) from 1st of year into say March and c) what final numbers looked like come May or whenever your season really starts. We use to say that 25% of losses happened between fall and beginning of year, 25% happened from January thru March and that whatever your losses were up to that point could be doubled for April/early May depending on when dandelions start. But we never fed so early spring could be tough depending on what fall stores were like and how spring worked itself out. My guess is that the percentages are still about the same for me now as back then. If it would get cold again even at night I just might take a trip around and see how things look but with this warm weather that's not too promising.


Yes, it seems to become my routine - checking around the holidays (both fall and winter).

First round I go around T-Giving - the worst units drop off by then - gives me a good chance to clean the hives out and harvest/put away the resources.
The second round is around the Xmas - the second tier of the worst units drop off by about then - again, I clean out the dead and have a good idea what resources got released by the dead outs.
I don't like the hives full of dead bees going for months - I'd prefer to clean the mess out as quickly as possible - this is because the hives become the storage boxes until spring (no need for mold-prone environment).

As I am doing this second round, I also start putting up dry sugar/divert insulation where needed/save honey frames for those units that are worth trying to save.
Until now I don't even bother with dry feeding so not to waste my time/effort.

Am not done checking yet and so the final #s are still unknown (5-7 units will be sufficient to get me set for 2020).

However strong the units were just a couple of months ago - does not matter - they will drop all the same (big or small) due to absent treatments.
As well, very small units can winter through just fine (3-4 frames) - counter to what is being taught - one reason I keep them all, regardless of the size.

Regarding the loss proportions - I record my losses (but never bother going back and analyzing).
Looking back most of the loss occurs prior and up to the winter holidays (as for me) - the units that made this far, I then am trying to save (apply dry sugar and have ready frames at a stand-by).

Last year was unusual - I lost 3-4 very good units in the end of February/early March (very harsh winter) - they would have made it through a milder winter.
So it was 1)end of the year losses and 2)end of the winter losses - which contributed to my very bad year - not much harvest at all due to few end of the year loss (end of the winter loss results in harvest loss too).

Normally, I expect mostly #1 and not much #2 (the best outcome for me - get to keep the most produce this way while the bee #s normalize down).
Once the units make it into March and have a chance to defecate really well(!), I will try my best to keep them afloat - feed/insulate/even heat if must.
Making this far, these survivors will be the most valuable units/the worst losses if allowed to happen - I'd to my best to prevent the April/May losses, these are un-affordable losses IMO.


----------



## BigBlackBirds

GregV said:


> Yes, it seems to become my routine - checking around the holidays (both fall and winter).
> 
> First round I go around T-Giving - the worst units drop off by then - gives me a good chance to clean the hives out and harvest/put away the resources.
> The second round is around the Xmas - the second tier of the worst units drop off by about then - again, I clean out the dead and have a good idea what resources got released by the dead outs.
> I don't like the hives full of dead bees going for months - I'd prefer to clean the mess out as quickly as possible - this is because the hives become the storage boxes until spring (no need for mold-prone environment).
> 
> As I am doing this second round, I also start putting up dry sugar/divert insulation where needed/save honey frames for those units that are worth trying to save.
> Until now I don't even bother with dry feeding so not to waste my time/effort.
> 
> Am not done checking yet and so the final #s are still unknown (5-7 units will be sufficient to get me set for 2020).
> 
> However strong the units were just a couple of months ago - does not matter - they will drop all the same (big or small) due to absent treatments.
> As well, very small units can winter through just fine (3-4 frames) - counter to what is being taught - one reason I keep them all, regardless of the size.
> 
> Regarding the loss proportions - I record my losses (but never bother going back and analyzing).
> Looking back most of the loss occurs prior and up to the winter holidays (as for me) - the units that made this far, I then am trying to save (apply dry sugar and have ready frames at a stand-by).
> 
> Last year was unusual - I lost 3-4 very good units in the end of February/early March (very harsh winter) - they would have made it through a milder winter.
> So it was 1)end of the year losses and 2)end of the winter losses - which contributed to my very bad year - not much harvest at all due to few end of the year loss (end of the winter loss results in harvest loss too).
> 
> Normally, I expect mostly #1 and not much #2 (the best outcome for me - get to keep the most produce this way while the bee #s normalize down).
> Once the units make it into March and have a chance to defecate(!), I will try my best to keep them afloat - feed/insulate/even heat if must (these will be the most valuable units/the worst losses if allowed to happen).


i generally spend little time trying to get them past March to point that the dandelions pop and they are likely safe. but in my case have enough decades of stock selection and resulting colonies that doesnt matter if some dont make it. now i do like to sell some spring nucs so i hope to not have much for losses. for me some of those colonies that crash in spring are ones with too many bees going into winter and/or too much fall brood and then way too much brood too early in the spring. in other words they arent inclined to environmentally regulate. and its not too hard to find other bees that can simply winter compared to efforts of finding those that also have some varroa tolerance. usually these colonies started from a daughter of something with good conservative wintering traits + tracheal/varroa tolerance but ended up no longer having that combo. probably either from the original open mating of the mother and just what larvae happened to get grafted or from the open mating of the daughter. 

Sometime in March is when i make the first decisions for the upcoming year. typically looking for what first year untreated queens overwintered and are on 4-8 frames. if occupying less space than that, they are likely not super useful for me for any real production purposes or what limited pollination need to do. but if occupying more space, likely a real nuisance eating up stores, running on fumes, wanting to swarm---those i steal all brood can for nucs and then squish off queen. 

thats just what works for me. might not be good strategy for others though


----------



## GregB

BigBlackBirds said:


> i generally spend little time trying to get them past March to point that the dandelions pop and they are likely safe. but in my case have enough decades of stock selection and resulting colonies that doesnt matter if some dont make it. now i do like to sell some spring nucs so i hope to not have much for losses. * for me some of those colonies that crash in spring are ones with too many bees going into winter and/or too much fall brood and then way too much brood too early in the spring. * in other words they arent inclined to environmentally regulate. and its not too hard to find other bees that can simply winter compared to efforts of finding those that also have some varroa tolerance. usually these colonies started from a daughter of something with good conservative wintering traits + tracheal/varroa tolerance but ended up no longer having that combo. probably either from the original open mating of the mother and just what larvae happened to get grafted or from the open mating of the daughter.
> 
> Sometime in March is when i make the first decisions for the upcoming year. typically looking for what first year untreated queens overwintered and are on 4-8 frames. if occupying less space than that, they are likely not super useful for me for any real production purposes or what limited pollination need to do. but if occupying more space, likely a real nuisance eating up stores, running on fumes, wanting to swarm---those i steal all brood can for nucs and then squish off queen.
> 
> thats just what works for me. might not be good strategy for others though



Having too much brood is not an issue for me - such bees usually first ones to drop (being mite factories).
Anymore I don't have these bees around.

If I have even a single seam of bees in March - I will try to save them (I got heaters standing by if have to heat them).
If done so last year, I would have saved 1-2 colonies in March (slow thinking - blew my chances).
Granted such bees make it all way to March after the beating (however small they are), I want them.
From a single survivor queen in March, I can make 5-6 queens in July (some are hopefully keepers).


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Now is the time to start doing the X-Mas rounds and put down the year-end numbers.
> 
> -5.
> Down to 9 units - 9/19 (47%).
> 
> Out of the 9, one unit is an obvious suspect and a matter of time only (as of week ago) - *it is best if they just call it quits and done*..


And they did.

8/19 (42%).

Now this is # I'd like to hover about.

Ran out of my honey/perga mix (our natural supplement - we don't buy no more of the commercial vitamins).
Need to go, harvest some, and make more.


----------



## GregB

-2.
6/19 (32%).


----------



## GregB

X-Mass harvest time.

Compared to summer time extracted honey - this brood comb pressed honey is our favorite by far.
Especially by the kids because most all summer honey has gone thick by now (which they don't appreciate).
So I pull 1-2 frames from storage and C&S just enough for us to eat.

And of course - the straight comb honey is to die for - I set away a full container for my spouse (she is a huge fan and will forgive my away bee-time for comb honey treat).

There is well known opinion that the process of centrifuge extraction lessens the honey quality (too much contact with air/oxygen).
Probably true. I mean to google this up.


----------



## ghost1230

edit


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> And of course - the straight comb honey is to die for - I set away a full container for my spouse (she is a huge fan and will forgive my away bee-time for comb honey treat).


GregV:

I am glad to hear you are making lemonade out of lemons- I am also glad to hear that honey serves as payment for time spent in the bee-yard. 

Best of success to you with overwintering your remaining hives, and here's sincerely hoping that you and your family have a healthy and prosperous 2020.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> I am glad to hear you are making lemonade out of lemons- I am also glad to hear that honey serves as payment for time spent in the bee-yard.
> 
> Best of success to you with overwintering your remaining hives, and here's sincerely hoping that you and your family have a healthy and prosperous 2020.
> 
> Russ


Thanks!
Happy Holidays!


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Thanks!
> Happy Holidays!


Thank you- I appreciate it!


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

Troy Hall on an alternative commercial beekeeping.
https://ecommons.cornell.edu/handle/1813/69565

Direct link: 
https://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstr...iveataTime_Crosier.mp4?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

20 % or even 50 % (as someone else mentioned in this thread) loss per year. That is: 

400 hives = 100 %
80 hives = 20 %

80 hives x 220 lbs = 17,600 lbs. If you sale that honey in jars yourself, you'd get 104,000 € on this side of the pond. That is 116,000 USD. 

That is a huge loss. If you lose 40 % (and you will, being treatment free), you even lose more than 200,000 USD. That is quite a loss. Don't know how you survive that being commercial? Can't see that being sustainable. Don't misunderstand, I very much favor the try, but simply can't see it working out.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



BernhardHeuvel said:


> Troy Hall on an alternative commercial beekeeping.
> https://ecommons.cornell.edu/handle/1813/69565
> 
> Direct link:
> https://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstr...iveataTime_Crosier.mp4?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
> 
> 20 % or even 50 % (as someone else mentioned in this thread) loss per year. That is:
> 
> 400 hives = 100 %
> 80 hives = 20 %
> 
> 80 hives x 220 lbs = 17,600 lbs. If you sale that honey in jars yourself, you'd get 104,000 € on this side of the pond. That is 116,000 USD.
> 
> That is a huge loss. If you lose 40 % (and you will, being treatment free), you even lose more than 200,000 USD. That is quite a loss. Don't know how you survive that being commercial? Can't see that being sustainable. Don't misunderstand, I very much favor the try, but simply can't see it working out.


I am not a commercial.
Anything about commercial priorities are a moot point for me - these are not my priorities.

What is all the hang-up about lost honey sales in dollars and pounds (ALL theoretical numbers at that)?

I don't care to sell honey.
In fact, I don't care to sell anything from my bees - we keep it all for the family use.

I only care to NOT buy anything so I can play with the bees, enjoy doing it, and do whatever I feel like doing - and I never have bought anything, outside of few tools and hardware.
To compare, lots of people around me already spent many hundreds and thousands of dollars only to look at their bees predictably die year after year after year.

I sell my professional time, instead, at much, much higher rate to even bother thinking of honey selling (which would be unsustainable waste of time)....


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



BernhardHeuvel said:


> Troy Hall on an alternative commercial beekeeping.
> https://ecommons.cornell.edu/handle/1813/69565
> 
> Direct link:
> https://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstr...iveataTime_Crosier.mp4?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
> 
> 20 % or even 50 % (as someone else mentioned in this thread) loss per year. That is:
> 
> 400 hives = 100 %
> 80 hives = 20 %
> 
> 80 hives x 220 lbs = 17,600 lbs. If you sale that honey in jars yourself, you'd get 104,000 € on this side of the pond. That is 116,000 USD.
> 
> That is a huge loss. If you lose 40 % (and you will, being treatment free), you even lose more than 200,000 USD. That is quite a loss. Don't know how you survive that being commercial? Can't see that being sustainable. Don't misunderstand, I very much favor the try, but simply can't see it working out.


Hi Bernhard, first hats off if you are averaging 220 lbs of honey harvested per hive, well done. Many harvest less.
Also the other side of your math is the 80% if 20% is 116,000 then the 80% that are left is 464,000 USD in a pinch, considering 1/2 would be expences i could scrape by on 232k a year. He claims 20% loss, if consistent year to year that is not bad IMO sure 5% is better. Also those that try may find the way for those who wish to wait a bit. Always will be trail Blazers and trail followers.
GG


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> I am not a commercial.
> Anything about commercial priorities are a moot point for me - these are not my priorities.
> ............


Suppose, one of my stakes in this project is - fact-finding
As objective as possible fact-finding at that.
Will see where it takes us.

PS: all the while staying within the US corporate system for the lively-hood;
(if gone independent, this year's my medical bills could essentially wipe me out - so much for the advertised US freedoms - must play the corporate survival games or else);
bee/honey sales will not cut it even close to try to even bother;


----------



## JWChesnut

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

Troy Hall has elsewhere (screen cap of a post on a social media platform, available on request) stated he plans for 45-50% losses, and averages 30-35%. His self-reported losses in the past 3 years are '16-'17 - 50%, 17-18 -- 55%, and 18-19 -- 20%. so 42% averaged over the last 3 years.

There is a perverse incentive in beekeeping to evade any honest accounting of losses. This lack of honest transparency means that folks guilible to the "triumphalism" myth make poor decisions.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



JWChesnut said:


> .......There is a perverse incentive in beekeeping to evade any honest accounting of losses. ....


Partially why I report my losses just as is - useful side-effect, while harvesting my own, clean bee products.

Lack of credible information is obvious and tiresome (but it is similar to asking the fishermen about their catch's size - nothing really new).
Beekeepers and the fishermen are of the same kind.


At the end of this winter I will have 3-year consecutive run - each winter starting with a significant enough 10-20 unit trial.
Obviously, this is only one context-dependent case-study.
Not bad, not good, just what it is.


----------



## JWChesnut

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

Yes, Greg, unlike the "guru" types selling fairy stories to newbees, you are quite open about the losses.


----------



## jjelen21

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

Wow, beekeepers are just simmering with hostility! And I bet they’re in church every Sunday saying “peace be with you”


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

Interesting first post there jjelen21. No hostility, just some strong opinions. At the end of the day, we are all in this together. Greg is honest about his losses, some TF beekeepers are not so forthcoming as it does not suit their narrative.


----------



## tpope

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



jjelen21 said:


> Wow, beekeepers are just simmering with hostility! And I bet they’re in church every Sunday saying “peace be with you”


Welcome to Beesource jjelen21. Beekeepers are people... we come in many flavors.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> What is all the hang-up about lost honey sales in dollars and pounds (ALL theoretical numbers at that)?


Try to make a living for your family with bees, and you immediately know, what I meant.  Commercials are not playing. 

For me, losses in honey production can be very real. Not just theoretical. There are bills to pay and groceries to buy.

If your projects produce facts, well, be ready to accept them. :lookout:


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



BernhardHeuvel said:


> *Try to make a living for your family with bees,* and you immediately know, what I meant.  Commercials are not playing.
> 
> For me, losses in honey production can be very real. Not just theoretical. There are bills to pay and groceries to buy.
> 
> If your projects produce facts, well, be ready to accept them. :lookout:


Like I already said - why bother trying?

It is not the best carrier choice to take - selling honey/bees for living, *especially *in the US, *especially *without any start-up capital/assets.
No need to challenge me on this one - too old for these talks and have a family to feed also.


There are many professions that pay sufficiently well and don't depend on annual weather and flow and a zillion of other factors.
Yes - a profession requires investment of your time and effort and continuous education.

I wish the US was small-business friendly - it is not - must have a corporate-sponsored health insurance just for the basic stability (yes, I am well aware of the ACA - not getting into it).


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

Beekeeping is not a job, it is a lifestyle. We may work hard for no money, but it is the last profession with some sort of freedom. Which is priceless.

Land of the free. :thumbsup:


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



BernhardHeuvel said:


> Beekeeping is not a job, it is a lifestyle. We may work hard for no money, but it is the last profession with some sort of freedom. Which is priceless.
> 
> Land of the free. :thumbsup:


Great post, Bernhard. Reminds me of the quip that, 'Beekeeping is for those who hate money and love work.'

Kidding aside, I am grateful for the freedom to experiment, and appreciate other folk's efforts as well.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



BernhardHeuvel said:


> Beekeeping is not a job, it is a lifestyle. We may work hard for no money, but it is the last profession with some sort of freedom. Which is priceless.
> 
> Land of the free. :thumbsup:


Sounds good.

Don't tell about this money-free lifestyle to my wife - she earns no money and has no access to healthcare on her own (being a very busy homemaker).


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> I wish the US was small-business friendly - it is not - must have a corporate-sponsored health insurance just for the basic stability (yes, I am well aware of the ACA - not getting into it).


Hi Greg, I have not "opened" business in several countries, So I am asking here out of curiosity. Which countries are "more" small business friendly than the US? I have friends in Canada and Europe and the feeling I get is it is not easier there. I am not talking of the small under the table cash type set up but a real business like you are referring to? There are more small business in the US than almost any other country so I am trying to wrap my head around the statement. As I recall there are more people working for "Small business" in the US than any other country as well. Sure the red tape is not fun but almost every farmer and shop owner has to do it or they could not be a "business".


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Gray Goose said:


> Hi Greg, I have not "opened" business in several countries, So I am asking here out of curiosity. ......


While some "red tape" can be found anywhere (people love to gripe over little things even), the biggest obstacle by far is (in the US) marriage of the social benefits (primarily the healthcare) to the employer.
This trumps just about anything.
Without the basic, guarantied social benefits - we are back to the Wild Wild West (not exactly what most want) - so we have to be employed by someone who provides such benefits.

(I don't particularly care to find out how the ACA recipients work it out, if this what it takes to be an independent - the ACA itself is still in the air per the current politics).

Sure, I know small business owners personally - it works fine AS LONG AS your spouse/partner works a corporate-type job and provides the healthcare coverage for you.
Certainly, IF your age entitles you to the basic, guarantied social benefits - that is another case where you can be "independent operator" (at the expense of your age).

Like I said, if not for my corporate-sponsored/large group healthcare coverage, I'd get financially slammed out this year *alone *had I been an independent small operator - thanks to few ER visits.
Under such conditions, running an independent small business without some kind link into a corporate system makes a very poor choice.

Having (or not having) standard twice-per-year dental checks is a good indicator of your stability situation. 

As far your question, GG, no matter how much I google, US does not make it into the top 10 as the "most business friendly" country.
https://www.forbes.com/best-countries-for-business/list/#tab:overall

A huge part of the problem, as one French expat puts it (he is in the US now) - "I want to run my business and that is it. I don't want to run the benefits department. I am not in the benefits business!"


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> While some "red tape" can be found anywhere, the biggest obstacle by far is (in the US) marriage of the social benefits (primarily the healthcare) to the employer.
> This trumps just about anything.
> Without the basic, guarantied social benefits - we are back to the Wild Wild West (not exactly what most want).
> 
> Sure, I know small business owners personally - it works fine AS LONG AS your spouse/partner works a corporate-type job and provides the healthcare coverage for you.
> Certainly, IF your age entitles you to the basic, guarantied social benefits - that is another case where you can be "independent operator" (at the expense of your age).
> 
> Like I said, if not for my corporate-sponsored/large group healthcare coverage, I'd get financially slammed out this year *alone *had I been an independent small operator - thanks to few ER visits.
> Under such conditions, running an independent small business without some kind link into a corporate system makes a very poor choice.
> Having (or not having) standard twice-per-year dental checks is a good indicator of your stability situation.
> 
> As far your question, GG, no matter how much I google, US does not make it into the top 10 as the "most business friendly" country.
> https://www.forbes.com/best-countries-for-business/list/#tab:overall
> 
> A huge part of the problem as one French expat puts it (he is in the US now) - "I want to run my business and that is it. I don't want to run the benefits department."


Ok so the health care side of it.
Well lots of other countries have health care as a "state benefit" So then the taxes are higher to cover the health care, and it is managed by the state. not sure I want that either.
Health care currently is in flux so I guess post next election , we will see if we run toward socialism or toward something else. I understand both sides of the argument so no need to delve deeper. I am in the same boat as you are, My Corp job is mostly for the Benefits. Benefits came about BTW as an end around the high taxes of the past.Rather than pay you and have it taxed at 50% they added the benny to your job role, as a corporate expense. "Groups" may soon be possible, We are currently waiting on a ruling from the supreme court "about association health care plans" then a "group" beekeepers for example could form and get group rates and not need a corp to sponsor it. Maybe it will work out. the one constant to plan for is change...


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Gray Goose said:


> ......*."Groups" may soon be possible, * We are currently waiting on a ruling from the supreme court "about association health care plans" then a "group" beekeepers for example could form and get group rates and not need a corp to sponsor it. Maybe it will work out. the one constant to plan for is change...


I hope so, GG.

In fact, I much rather prefer "groups" based on your residence association (supported by your physical residence address).
There could be a "village group" or a "city group" or a "county group".
If these happen indeed, going for an independent operator status becomes a real option (in bee-related business, for an example).

Until then, I don't really care for many of the "freedoms" supposedly available to me.
They are un-affordable. 

Anyway, we are WAY off topic. 
Back to the bees!


----------



## HaplozygousNut

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> In my area, if the bees "die off" I better get those combs fast or small hive beetles will have ruined everything.


If the bees die during the winter or fall the cold will actually preserve the comb, and in Spring you could put these dead colonies onto the surviving colonies. 

Here in North Carolina the summers are our longest dearth and so could be actually harder on the bees than winter. I don't disturb the bees during the summer dearth because I have noticed that it stresses the bees to death. I will feed gallons of thick sugar syrup afterwards if I ever do disturb a colony in summer (curiosity on how the bees go through dearth).

But where GergV lives it seems that Winter would be his most losses during the year from living in Wisconsin with harsh winters. So his plan could work out well for him. lol


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



HaplozygousNut said:


> ....
> But where GergV lives it seems that Winter would be his most losses during the year from living in Wisconsin with harsh winters. So his plan could work out well for him. lol


Yes, for me the late fall/early winter die-offs are the best.
I get lots of stores at my disposal AND the storage issue is immediately solved until spring.
Starting the holidays, I have been harvesting non-stop - C&S honey, bee bread, propolis, combs to sort through.
There is way to go still. 
But I got until about March/April to do it.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> There is way to go still.


Keep plugging-away, GregV. I enjoy reading about your efforts.

Russ


----------



## squarepeg

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

moderator note: bernhard's and gg's last posts were straying away from greg's experience thread but are worthy of discussion and moved to this more appropriate thread:

https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...-not-treating-for-mites-opinion-thread/page16


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

I had a private talk regarding C&S harvest as opposed to conventional centrifuge technology.
As for me, I concluded, I prefer C&S in the homesteader setting and the small scale.
Having been doing both, I dislike the rush and the volume and the mess in the kitchen when doing the conventional extraction (and the resulting honey too - meh).

C&S for me is a low-impact, no rush, gradual activity done along the way of routine life - producing the superior product at that (something about honey curing is actually a valid thing, IMO). Whenever I feel like doing it and have time, we do C&S bit by a bit.

Select a frame that needs termination as unfit for long-term maintenance:







Destroy the comb:







Use the basic kitchen utensils:














Set aside for few days and forget:


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

When remember about it, collect honey for yourself and the residue for the bees to cleanup (and later wax extraction).


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> I had a private talk regarding C&S harvest as opposed to conventional centrifuge technology.
> As for me, I concluded, I prefer C&S in the homesteader setting and the small scale.
> Having been doing both, I dislike the rush and the volume and the mess in the kitchen when doing the conventional extraction (and the resulting honey too - meh).
> 
> C&S for me is a low-impact, no rush, gradual activity done along the way of routine life - producing the superior product at that (something about honey curing is actually a valid thing, IMO). Whenever I feel like doing it and have time, we do C&S bit by a bit.
> 
> Select a frame that needs termination as unfit for long-term maintenance:
> View attachment 53161
> 
> Destroy the comb:
> View attachment 53163
> 
> Use the basic kitchen utensils:
> View attachment 53165
> 
> View attachment 53169
> 
> Set aside for few days and forget:
> View attachment 53167


Hi Greg, Was this frame from a dead out? Also I see you left a bit of comb at the top of the frame that should get the next comb started.
Was there any sections of comb with pollen/bee bread with honey capped over? Holding up to a good light will show it. This could be eaten as is. Looks like a good frame to retire. nice Pics
GG


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Gray Goose said:


> Hi Greg, Was this frame from a dead out? Also I see you left a bit of comb at the top of the frame that should get the next comb started.
> Was there any sections of comb with pollen/bee bread with honey capped over? Holding up to a good light will show it. This could be eaten as is. Looks like a good frame to retire. nice Pics
> GG


Indeed a dead-out, GG.
A good example of substandard/old comb that I decides to harvest.

I have two cross-sections of dead outs photo-documented - I mean to post - long hives.
Interesting study cases of how the long hives operate.

Yes, I left about an inch of comb on the top (it contains a plastic starter strip inside anyway).

Yes, there are always some cells with bee-bread embedded in such dark frames (notice, this is a dark brood frame).
Question typically is - how many?
The bee bread then give some of its taste to the honey - which I find a plus and really like it.

I will set the C&S output onto the bees in early spring - this will be a combined honey/bee bread feed for the bees in - they love to pig out throu this stuff.
Actually, the remaining post C&S wax/honey mix is quite tasty just to chew on as well.
I'd have some tea and be chewing on the C&S stuff. 

Funny, but this reminds me how you'd keep chickens/pigs in a household - all the left-overs go to them.
The same with my bees.


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

My Absolute Favorite is the bee bread covered in Honey, eat as is. I bet you do have a bunch of subtle flavors, with the bee bread and dark comb. Making me hungry....doesn't help today is a fast day.
GG


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

Sure, GG.
I make sure I always have container full of honey combs to just eat.
Some of those combs contain both bee bread and honey - everything goes.

For example, when the honey cells are not capped (and the honey is suspect as in - "it will not store well") - those combs go directly onto the "honey trash" glass container.
My spouse's favorite - she is always digging through that "honey trash".
She'd let me know if she is running out of the combs to nimble on!

Actually, here it is - the "trash bin":








We also have a honey/bee bread mix jar going.
Us, the parents, always eat a spoon-full of the mix every morning before breakfast (kids stay away from it - looks very suggestively of p-o-o-p). 








I periodically shred a frame and harvest bee bread to make the mix.
This frame I recently shredded for bee bread as we ran out (most all worker cells were plugged up; what not plugged up - drone cells):


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> As for me, I concluded, I prefer C&S in the homesteader setting and the small scale.


GregV:

I enjoyed the photos and tips you posted on C+S. I've done a bit of it with a small comb press I inherited and would have done a much better and cleaner job had I read your posts first.

As Gray Goose noted, good photos. They certainly aided in my understanding of what you are doing.

Russ


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> I enjoyed the photos and tips you posted on C+S. I've done a bit of it with a small comb press I inherited and would have done a much better and cleaner job had I read your posts first.
> 
> As Gray Goose noted, good photos. They certainly aided in my understanding of what you are doing.
> 
> Russ


The key with C&S - you only *chop* the combs first (in fact, I prefer a cold frame immediately from the outside - precisely because the combs are fragile and fragment better).
Let it all drain at its own speed (I don't care if it takes few days - my honey is cold initially and drains slowly).
Once drained - only then you press (if care to squeeze more honey out - which I don't).


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> The key with C&S - you only *chop* the combs first (in fact, I prefer a cold frame immediately from the outside - precisely because the combs are fragile and fragment better).
> Let it all drain at its own speed (I don't care if it takes few days - my honey is cold initially and drains slowly).
> Once drained - only then you press (if care to squeeze more honey out - which I don't).


Good advice- I am storing this back for next time. Will certainly save me a lot of headaches and mess...


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

-1 
5/19 (26%).
Now, this is quite natural survival rate.


Winter is hammering now at the remaining survivors.
A nuc cluster got stuck and froze inches away from their honey.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> Winter is hammering now at the remaining survivors.


Sorry, GregV.

This is where I think that those of us at lower latitudes have a much easier time attempting treatment-free, but I could certainly be mistaken. 

We have only had two nights in the teens thus far down here, and lots of flying hours to-date.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Litsinger said:


> Sorry, GregV.
> 
> This is where I think that those of us at lower latitudes have a much easier time attempting treatment-free, but I could certainly be mistaken.
> 
> We have only had two nights in the teens thus far down here, and lots of flying hours to-date.


It is what it is.

Over Nov/Dec/Jan so far we had:
- 15 nights in the teens F
- 12 nights in the singles F 





















No negatives F yet, but the coldest time around here is usually Jan/Feb.
So now comes along the winter hardiness test - the double-whammy.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> It is what it is.


This I understand. The comparison of nighttime lows between your locale and mine does underscore the difference in overwintering dynamics North versus South, though it looks like you and I are fairly close in Longitude.


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Litsinger said:


> Good advice- I am storing this back for next time. Will certainly save me a lot of headaches and mess...


Russ also a laZy mans way to do C&S leave an inch or so of comb, then take 1/2 that away making whats left uncapped and to a point at the edge. place upside down over a cookie sheet overnight to drain, let the bees clean it up like the wet frames from extract. then the starter is done for next year.


----------



## AR1

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Litsinger said:


> This I understand. The comparison of nighttime lows between your locale and mine does underscore the difference in overwintering dynamics North versus South, though it looks like you and I are fairly close in Longitude.


I have been thinking about this. A big problem further north is not just the cold but the length of the no-brood period. In the warm south, the time for winter bees is short; there are always at least a few new bees. 

One really bad effect of varroa is that it shortens the life of bees. In the south, with new brood coming on pretty much all the time, with no or only a short winter brood break, it isn't so important that the winter bee's life span is shorter. But we can have no new bees from November through February or even longer as you go north. 4+ months the winter bees have to survive, and then another month while they forage in the spring with little to no help from new bees. If varroa pressure is high, few bees will survive and you get puny spring clusters that can barely support new brood.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



AR1 said:


> I have been thinking about this. A big problem further north is not just the cold but the length of the no-brood period. In the warm south, the time for winter bees is short; there are always at least a few new bees.
> 
> One really bad effect of varroa is that it shortens the life of bees. In the south, with new brood coming on pretty much all the time, with no or only a short winter brood break, it isn't so important that the winter bee's life span is shorter. But we can have no new bees from November through February or even longer as you go north. 4+ months the winter bees have to survive, and then another month while they forage in the spring with little to no help from new bees. If varroa pressure is high, few bees will survive and *you get puny spring clusters that can barely support new brood.*


As well these "puny clusters" become very susceptible to low temps and wear out exceedingly quickly just trying to maintain the cluster core temp.

What happened with the last dead nuc - was an excellent cluster going into the winter.
Well, the cluster attrition was too great over the November/December.
I found a grapefruit size cluster remainder frozen in-place with no stores reachable to them.
They could not even take advantage of the dry sugar over the head.

A viable small cluster down South is pretty much doomed up here (you can not just feed the small cluster through the winter here - it will trivially freeze anyway).

So, this is partly what I observe - this is a double-jeopardy game for me (compared to the TF games down South).
Indeed, playing a TF game in the Northern suburbia is a disadvantage up front - my case study.


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> As well these "puny clusters" become very susceptible to low temps and wear out exceedingly quickly just trying to maintain the cluster core temp.
> 
> What happened with the last dead nuc - was an excellent cluster going into the winter.
> Well, the cluster attrition was too great over the November/December.
> I found a grapefruit size cluster remainder frozen in-place with no stores reachable to them.
> They could not even take advantage of the dry sugar over the head.
> 
> A viable small cluster down South is pretty much doomed up here (you can not just feed the small cluster through the winter here - it will trivially freeze anyway).
> 
> So, this is partly what I observe - this is a double-jeopardy game for me (compared to the TF games down South).
> Indeed, playing a TF game in the Northern suburbia is a disadvantage up front - my case study.


Greg, would it make sense to combine in the fall 2 or 3 small clusters and then split in the spring. If the little ones all perish then in the spring you have nothing to start from.
If 6 were to be combined into 2 hives and 1 survived, then you would at least have something to start splits again with. Well good luck with the swarm trapping. I also have "many" small ones this year and have the proverbial fingers crossed. I made 6 late splits, I am seeing dead bees in front of 3 of them in the snow so I will get maybe 1/2 if I am lucky.
GG


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Gray Goose said:


> *Greg, would it make sense to combine in the fall 2 or 3 small clusters and then split in the spring. * If the little ones all perish then in the spring you have nothing to start from.
> If 6 were to be combined into 2 hives and 1 survived, then you would at least have something to start splits again with. Well good luck with the swarm trapping. I also have "many" small ones this year and have the proverbial fingers crossed. I made 6 late splits, I am seeing dead bees in front of 3 of them in the snow so I will get maybe 1/2 if I am lucky.
> GG


Well, I am also observing how many apparently strong clusters early November very quickly dissolve in a matter of just weeks and are gone by XMass.
Unsure if the conventional combines are the answer.
One issue with the forced combines is that when you combine high mite-infested cluster with a low mite-infested cluster - you just end up having a single ~high mite-infested cluster (and, basically, doom it).
Also consider a likely loss a better queen to a worse one -* from the resistance point, not the general point *- which could be very much different - I don't care for the generally good, but low in resistance queens.

So, IF I see a 4-frame cluster in October - it is a good enough cluster to try for it - a healthy cluster of this size should winter (as long as the attrition is not precipitous).
But the margin of loss tolerance is low, of course.
25-30% attrition will push this 4-frame cluster over the viability threshold - impossible to tell beforehand how the attrition will go.

As much as I hate doing it - but mite counts maybe an answer to identify the worthwhile wintering units vs. the low-value units.

It is puzzling how different the open-mated daughters of the same exact queen turn - some crash and burn quickly and yet the others are holding - the same mother and the similar mite loads that come from the mother hive.

Hate killing the bees for alcohol washes, but the count information could be useful long-term (especially in the nucs - where the counts could be really valuable - and yet every 1/2 cup of bees does matter for the colony).
For example, two low-mite nucs could be fine to combine.
But low-mite and high-mite nucs should not be combines.
This way I can see a value in the mite counts.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Gray Goose said:


> Russ also a laZy mans way to do C&S leave an inch or so of comb, then take 1/2 that away making whats left uncapped and to a point at the edge. place upside down over a cookie sheet overnight to drain, let the bees clean it up like the wet frames from extract. then the starter is done for next year.
> View attachment 53275
> View attachment 53277


Good post, Gray Goose. Thank you for the advice. That is some good looking comb you've got there for your starter...


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> This way I can see a value in the mite counts.


Good points, GregV. I've appreciated reading the back-and-forth.

While I will be the first to admit that mite drop counts likely cannot hope to tell you the whole story about what is going on internally, it seems logical to me to at least have some point of reference to compare across seasons, colonies and years. 

It will be interesting to see what, if any patterns emerge when one consistently evaluates mite drops on regular intervals. Maybe this combined with approximate cluster size at a specific date (say October 1st) could serve as a good proxy for a 'go-no-go' decision to overwinter a colony 'as-is'?


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

A little off-topic, but this is generally what I am doing - growing my foods without chems (with the side-affect of not damaging the pollinator population).

The chem-free apple growing - using zip-lock bags.
So this is an alternative way to grow your own apples (and any hard fruit) on a small scale - five semi-dwarf apple trees about 4 meters high in my case.

The original idea comes from: https://gordosoft.com/orchard/bagging.htm
However, after many years of doing it I made my own modifications.
I am sure my way is much more efficient than the original - very important if you are to bag ~ 1000 apples by hand.

You do the bagging one time only - when the fruit-lets are the size of a small/medium grape.
Conveniently, you also thin the fruit at once (apple should be thinned for good quality fruit).
So this is a double-procedure done once per the season - thinning/bagging.
I would not do it on full-size trees, but semi-dwarf/dwarf trees are perfect.

I would state the bagging is ~90% effective against coddling moth and apple maggots - the main apple pests in my area.

Details:

- it takes exactly three small snips at a ziplock bag - 2 corners and 1 cut *across *the flap/lock
-- (*ONLY *one flap, not both - the original method suggest cutting through both locks and also cutting off the flaps - a bad, bad idea and makes for a terrible installation process later)
-- my pics show well what and how needs to be cut
-- I would NOT recommend following the video posted on https://gordosoft.com/orchard/bagging.htm
- double-zip sandwich bags from Walmart (the generic type) are the best - or find similar product (here I agree with the https://gordosoft.com/orchard/bagging.htm)
- let me repeat - don't cut off anything else - If you cut the flaps off you'd have a terrible time opening the bags later, for the installation and also to get the fruit out 
-- you want the process easy and efficient if you are to bag hundreds of apples while maneuvering in the tree

- the moisture inside the bag - a non-issue; 
-- a healthy fruit does not care - the fungal disease will not set on a healthy apple (it is a myth) - see my pics
- the sun will not bake the apple - that is another myth;
- sometimes a bag just breaks when due to the weather or the apple pressure; usually this is late in the season and the apple ends up clean and well preserved
- most fruit-let damage before you bag is irrelevant - plum curculio beetle is a major example - it only leaves behind a cosmetic damage, a scar - the growing apple will crush the beetle larvae inside it
- earwigs sometimes get inside the bag - they don't damage the apple and a non-issue

- I harvest store the apples directly in the zip bags - perfect storage - they don't go bad and they also don't shrivel, just requires a cool place as for normal apple storage
-- yes - the bags are plastic, but this is food-grade plastic and you'd still wash them before using

- good quality bags go 2-3 season before breaking up; poor quality bags should last a season just fine.

Pics:


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

More pics.
This is the failed fruit - it never grew.
The pics show how the grape-size fruit should be zipped in.
Very tight seal around the fruit-let leg; and yet it does not choke it.
You also don't want the zip-locks to be applied *across *the fruit leg - they will likely damage it while installing and the effort is wasted


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> A little off-topic, but this is generally what I am doing - growing my foods without chems (with the side-affect of not damaging the pollinator population).


GregV:

I am always impressed with how good your orchard products look. I have a mighty difficult time with my orchard down here...


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> I am always impressed with how good your orchard products look. I have a mighty difficult time with my orchard down here...


Russ do you have chickens?? And the grass is always greener.....Nitrates help, just sayin. locate a farmer with a 4-6 year old pile you can mulch with.


----------



## AR1

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

In Japan I saw many fruits bagged with paper bags. The rain didn't seem to cause any problems.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Gray Goose said:


> Russ do you have chickens?? And the grass is always greener.....Nitrates help, just sayin. locate a farmer with a 4-6 year old pile you can mulch with.


Thanks, Gray Goose. In fairness I only started putting an orchard out last year and and lost a lot of trees to overly aggressive pruning... lots to learn.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

March 1st (still winter here).

Bad news - I am down to 3 units as of yesterday (3/19; 16%)
Good news - 2 of the 3 are of my best "survivor" line (the 3rd winter is almost over; I don't think their persistence is a random chance given all the hell I gave them).
Interestingly, both are early June anti-swarming splits (not the July splits - all my July splits are dead).
Early splits maybe a better bet in my area vs. the late splits.
This summer will be dedicated to propagating these bees.

The other unit just a random surviving swarm of unknown heritage - to early to say anything except for letting them tag along.

Lesson learned - should probably start counting mites in later summer and selectively combine some units with lower nite counts into stronger units for winter.
The repeated attempts to winter smaller nucs are not working too well for me (lost two maybe worthwhile nucs just over the February - caught too late to insert the heaters in and they froze).
Probably should target for a lower number of stronger units going into the winter (not 20 dinks).


----------



## AR1

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

How small were the smaller nucs?

My 2 nucs seem to be doing very well. A single 5-frame deep for each of them. On top is a second nuc stuffed with insulation. Walls are one inch (true one inch, not lumber sizing). Small bottom entrance. Sugar on top of frames all winter. No extra insulation on the side walls. I plan to make a bunch of these this year since it is working. Of course, this has been an unusually mild winter here, and your winters are considerably colder, longer.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> Early splits maybe a better bet in my area vs. the late splits.
> This summer will be dedicated to propagating these bees.
> 
> ...
> 
> Probably should target for a lower number of stronger units going into the winter (not 20 dinks).


GregV:

Sorry to hear about the winnowing in your apiary this Winter.

While I don't know too much, your goals for 2020 seem prudent to me.

I do look forward to continuing to read your chronicles, and I sincerely hope for better outcomes this year, suggesting progress in your local genetic profile.

Best of luck to you this year.

Russ


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



AR1 said:


> How small were the smaller nucs?
> 
> My 2 nucs seem to be doing very well. A single 5-frame deep for each of them. On top is a second nuc stuffed with insulation. Walls are one inch (true one inch, not lumber sizing). Small bottom entrance. Sugar on top of frames all winter. No extra insulation on the side walls. I plan to make a bunch of these this year since it is working. Of course, this has been an unusually mild winter here, and your winters are considerably colder, longer.


These smaller nucs entered the winter as strong 5-6 frame units.
But the attrition was too massive and I found the residual clusters at 1-2 frames only (with these sizes no amount of insulation could help anymore during our deep cold snaps).
Wintered inside this insulated rig (essentially, I have a double-wall winter hive that takes 3 nucs inside):








I should have proactively checked them in early February (our harshest winter month here) and put them on the life-support (got heater inserts).
This is regardless of the temp monitoring (which was fine until the very collapse) and the dry sugar on top.

These 2 nucs were wintering in the backyard and I had all the means to save them - and didn't. 
So that is a bummer, to loose worthwhile units in February after making that far.

But again, a healthy unit should not have such high winter attrition; somehow my remaining survivors clearly hold fine.
So I should starting counting the mites as a forecasting tool - so to know which units are truly worthwhile saving and which should be let go.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> ......
> Best of luck to you this year.
> 
> Russ


Thanks; it should be a good year 2020.
I got lots of leftover resources to jump start any number of new units I wish to do in 2020.
Lots of housing is available for any new swarms that land as well.

So over the 4 winters now (the first winter I don't count as a throw-away case), I had about 10 different bee lines (between 40 and 50 units in sum) come and go - all of these died off in the end.
But I can now certify I have a line on hand that consistently survived through 3 winters somehow.
Can still be a random case, but after 3 winters the randomness of survival is harder to attribute now as the various bees around kept predictably failing.

However, they seem to be surviving consistently at only one of my yards - to be noted.
This particular location - ecologically clean private preserve with good acreage and surrounded with similar land use properties.
However, not isolated with another small beekeeper just across a road from me; he is a conventional beek.

At the same time, I now have yards where the bees are consistently failing year after year (even the bees of the "survivor" line).
What I originally considered a "good" yard did not have a single unit wintering yet after 3 years (maybe the over-saturation is the problem; I always end up with too many units there).

My local partner here has a line that tested over 5 years TF by now.
We should be able to create some good material between his 5-year line and my 3-year line.
Talking about it.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

February 2020 temps - pretty average February around here (2019 was much colder).


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> However, they seem to be surviving consistently at only one of my yards - to be noted.


GregV:

Interesting observations. While I have little to base it on, it seems intuitive to me that forage quality has to have some bearing on the overall health (and thus survival) of colonies. Are there possibly opportunities for you to either increase hive density at your best yard and/or find similar ecological areas to expand into?


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> Interesting observations. While I have little to base it on, it seems intuitive to me that forage quality has to have some bearing on the overall health (and thus survival) of colonies. Are there possibly opportunities for you to either increase hive density at your best yard and/or find similar ecological areas to expand into?





> #1 - the base (backyard)
> #2 - secondary base (the bus stop acquaintance property - 1/2 mile from the base)
> #3 - private preserve/farmstead (2-3 miles away)
> #4 - private farmstead (5-6 miles away)
> #5 - private preserve (5-6 miles away)
> #6 - commercial farm (2-3 miles away)
> #7 - private homestead next to a state nature preserve (~10 miles away)


#3 is the property where I have the two surviving units. 
As far as the nutrition goes - #3 is not obviously better than #1 or #2 (both are next to a large state nature preserve too, compatible to #3). 
However, #3 has much better general ecology than #1 and #2, (#3 is removed from a dense suburb by a good distance).

In general, I don't have sites with obviously more poor nutrition. 
All sites have very diverse and satisfactory pastures (even #6 has good pastures close enough).
My last remaining unit happened to be at the #6.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> In general, I don't have sites with obviously more poor nutrition.


Fair enough- I was just curious if there was (or will emerge) some factor at site #3 which confers a survival advantage.

Maybe the coming years will yield more clues or substantiate that it is strictly coincidence.


----------



## msl

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> But I can now certify I have a line on hand that consistently survived through 3 winters somehow.
> Can still be a random case, but after 3 winters the randomness of survival is harder to attribute now as the various bees around kept predictably failing.
> However, they seem to be surviving consistently at only one of my yards - to be noted.


I am having a bit of trouble folowing you.. 
these are from a June swam contoral split Are these 2019 june queens or last years overwintered queens.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



msl said:


> I am having a bit of trouble folowing you..
> these are from a June swam contoral split Are these 2019 june queens or last years overwintered queens.


2019 June queens.

Not a particular bee.
A line.

I think I see what you getting at - no queen ever lived for more than 1 winter (it is NOT a survival - as you stated above already).

What I am getting at - after 3 winters, only the bees of *this particular line* are still consistently surviving. 
By a randomness factor - this line should be also dead.

Any other line I had - could only survive 1 winter - I went through about 10 lines by now (I can and should count exactly how many as I got the records).
One line did 2 winters - before the last unit of them died off in Feb 2020.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Litsinger said:


> Fair enough- I was just curious if there was (or will emerge) some factor at site #3 which confers a survival advantage.
> 
> Maybe the coming years will yield more clues or substantiate that it is strictly coincidence.


Deleted... (I got confused).

Yes - this as well could be about *the particular site* and not about the particular bees.
Or both.

For example, my #2 site is very close to a busy 2-lane road (less than 10 meters/30 feet; shielded by vegetation, but still lots of traffic).
I begin to doubt the #2 is a good site in general for some reason (road pollution?).

Every single unit of my "3-year" survivor line ended up dead in that particular yard (4 units this 2020 winter; 3 units in 2019 winter).
Actually, NO bees of any line at all ever survived in the yard #2 (3 years in a row now).
Makes me think if I should even continue that yard outside of swarm trapping there.


----------



## msl

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



> What I am getting at - after 3 winters, only the bees of this particular line are still consistently surviving.
> By a randomness factor - this line should be also dead.


maybe, but is it just the odds, did you make more splits form these vs outhers, you do so much stuff differently each time its hard to evaluate..Could have been the split before the mites pop got too high coupled with the brood break causing this survival etc
after 3 years, loosing 50% of the base genetics each generation this "line" is much more made up of the background genetics supplying the drones then the original queen.. currant work force is what, maybe 12.5% or less of the OG queen (not counting recombination!!), cut that in 1/2 again when you split this spring.

Winter of 17/18 82% loses
Winter of 18/19 71% loses 
winter of 19-20 84% loss and counting 
I don't see "consistently surviving", and I don't see the impact this so called survivor line is having, given they would have been the hives you split form each spring if they were "better" then one would expect losses to go down, if survival is "random" it would stay the same 
your losses are very high, even for TF in your neck of the woods. It might be worth the time to take a hard look and evaluate your beekeeping methods (as you note late splits consistently fail, maby overwintered queens need replaced toward the end of the flow as then don't make the 2nd winter, ) as they might be having a much larger impact then geneticists.

I realy think your fooling your self, take it for what its worth.
PS I made up a bunch of those Ukraine foam mating nucs, have to see how they work, but digging them so far.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



msl said:


> maybe, but is it just the odds, did you make more splits form these vs outhers, you do so much stuff differently each time its hard to evaluate..Could have been the split before the mites pop got too high coupled with the brood break causing this survival etc
> after 3 years, loosing 50% of the base genetics each generation this "line" is much more made up of the background genetics supplying the drones then the original queen.. currant work force is what, maybe 12.5% or less of the OG queen (not counting recombination!!), cut that in 1/2 again when you split this spring.
> 
> Winter of 17/18 82% loses
> Winter of 18/19 71% loses
> winter of 19-20 84% loss and counting
> I don't see "consistently surviving", and I don't see the impact this so called survivor line is having, given they would have been the hives you split form each spring if they were "better" then one would expect losses to go down, if survival is "random" it would stay the same
> your losses are very high, even for TF in your neck of the woods. It might be worth the time to take a hard look and evaluate your beekeeping methods (as you note late splits consistently fail, maby overwintered queens need replaced toward the end of the flow as then don't make the 2nd winter, ) as they might be having a much larger impact then geneticists.
> 
> I realy think your fooling your self, take it for what its worth.
> PS I made up a bunch of those Ukraine foam mating nucs, have to see how they work, but digging them so far.


Some lines are consistently and predictably dead - a fact. 
Other lines are NOT consistently and predictably dead - another fact.
The explanations are not known and I don't care about splitting my head over that.
I just have my own little, isolated facts and work with them.

Coming to a conclusion that 5-frame nucs are not working for me - all it is to it.
That is where my losses are coming from (this 5-frame nuc-centered model is not working here - winter is too harsh and long for not-treated nucs).
IMO, the nuc running model of Mike Palmer really is dependent on treatments (which in turn keeps the small clusters just above water).

I also lost two over-wintered queens because I used them to produce drones.
Should pull over-wintered queens out into brood-less shook swarms *after the drone production season* - so to save them aside.
This drone production business, while is necessary, is also mite production business and kills the over-wintered queens.

The plan is:
1)start practicing the mite-counts (true - I ignored it; but without the counts I can not be proactive and don't know in fall which units are winter-worthy)
2)identify low-count units in fall and 
3)combine the low-count units by 2-3 where needed - so to offset higher then normal levels of attrition due to chem-free regiment
4)high-count units to be harvested to the bone and left to fail

Speaking of high losses - just found out fresh news about one local conventional beek:
".. he said that he has lost all but one of his ~40 or so colonies. He treated them and still lost them..."
I thought I had it bad.


----------



## gww

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

Greg
You split a lot. My very first year a bee keeper told me that he had more confidence in a big hive making it compared to a small hive. I have wintered a single medium. I have did a few splits to see how to do them. Mostly, I let most hives do what they want and leave them if they get big or stay little with out mixing resource between them. Maybe concentrate on swarms for increase and let the others do what ever they will and only play with like a third of your hives rather then all of them. 

Not saying it would work in any way. Just wondering if you have ever tried it.

Either way, Good luck. You at least still have bees to play with with out having to buy any. That is sorta my goal in the end.
Cheers
gww


----------



## msl

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

My take is your fooling you self if you think 2-3 over wintered queens are going to generate enough drones to have an impact, much less an impact or your own splits taken from them.. If you did you would be inbreeding, most of us would. Thats just not how bees work

On top of that, drones are top level athletes and a single mite has a massive impact on there fitness. Give the mites preference for drone brood they can be quicly impacted
in BUBALO (2004) TF hives lost 90% of their drones on the 1st orientation flight.
Duay 2002 found one mite cut the drones sperm production by 24%, 2 mites 45%. and in wind tunnel testing found 


> We conclude that most of the drones parasitized by Varroa mites during pupal infesta-tion will unlikely be able to reach a DCA. Similar conclusions were also reached by Pechhacker(1998) and Sylvester et al. (1999), although no relation was made with the degree of individualpupal infestation. In addition, the diminished life expectancy of parasitized drones (Rinderer etal., 1999; Collins and Pettis, 2001, and P.R. Duay, unpublished results) and the probable disori-entation during early orientation flights (D. Bubalo, H. Pechhacker, A. Willam, N. Kezic and D.Sulmanovic, unpublished data) will also reduce the number of Varroa-parasitized drones thatcan be regarded as potential mates.Even if a drone has reached a DCA, it must be capable of chasing the queen in a high-speed flight, in order to have a chance to copulate with her (Gries and Koeniger, 1996). Ourdata suggest that few of the mite-parasitized drones would be able to do so.


long and short, its unlikely your drones matter



> Coming to a conclusion that 5-frame nucs are not working for me - all it is to it.
> That is where my losses are coming from (this 5-frame nuc-centered model is not working here - winter is too harsh and long for not-treated nucs).
> IMO, the nuc running model of Mike Palmer really is dependent on treatments (which in turn keeps the small clusters just above water).


Interesting change from Nov


GregV said:


> In general, I am yet to see a smallish nuc to be killed by mites (the wintering is the problem to be solved with these).
> If I figure out the formula to consistently over-winter enough mid/late summer nucs - I don't really care of any calamities then - these nucs in general are very healthy (just small - which can be mitigated by a variety of ways).
> The large units I find (especially, the overwintered units or prime swarms) are likely to be mite-killed -
> .



yet Palmer only treats once a year, and got the model from Webster who is TF and "expansion model" beekeeping has been about as "successful" as it gets for many TF keepers.

I suggest the issue is not a well proven system, but your application of it. Maybe too small, too late, with poor emergy queens heading them up? A split too far? (a trap I keep falling into my self). 5 frame singes vs 4 over 4 and side by side sharing heat?



> The plan is:
> 1)start practicing the mite-counts (true - I ignored it; but without the counts I can not be proactive and don't know in fall which units are winter-worthy)
> 2)identify low-count units in fall and
> 3)combine the low-count units by 2-3 where needed - so to offset higher then normal levels of attrition due to chem-free regiment
> 4)high-count units to be harvested to the bone and left to fail



1 :thumbsup:
2-3 but watch the development stage as well.. combining a bunch of (newer) units with old bees that haven't yet made winter bees just means a bunch of old dead bees down the road. I lost a bunch of later nucs (combined mateing nucs and splits using the lat round of queens) that had ok pops but then shed the old bees and froze in tiny clusters leaving a lot of stores. The splits made 3-4 weeks earlier did much better. There is a point where you may just be better off harvesting a dink like the skep keepers of old. 
4:thumbsup: I my self would euthanize them (95 gal trash bag) or at least use a robbing screen to protect the low mite hives. A total shake out and feed would let you put them to work drawing and filling comb for next years splits/winter emergency

Over all I applaud you stepping up and exerting some control over your stocks destiny above and beyond the hand "nature" has been dealing you.


----------



## GregB

And so to conclude this case cleanly - 2/19 is the final toll.
10%.

As of last weekend - only the 2 units are still standing side by side.
Two June 2019 sisters.
This is the line going back 3 winters now.








Sister to the left is short-tempered, of alert nature - the stronger of the two (mid-size overall) - very little winter loss.
Sister to the right is of mild disposition - the weakling of the two - lots of winter losses that I scooped out, but still made it through and will be a fine unit.

Both unis were very low maintenance - I spent very little time in 2019 with these (no feeding whatsoever).
I had no time for these and almost thought they swarmed on me in July (were sitting in under-sized equipment) - well, they did not swarm.

Both unit provisioned lots of stores and did not use much (I even stole some very heavy frames this past weekend to harvest).

I will want to make as many queens as possible from these two - especially from the feisty sister.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



msl said:


> Interesting change from Nov
> 
> yet Palmer only treats once a year, and got the model from Webster who is TF and "expansion model" beekeeping has been about as "successful" as it gets for many TF keepers.
> 
> I suggest the issue is not a well proven system, but your application of it. Maybe too small, too late, with poor emergy queens heading them up? A split too far? (a trap I keep falling into my self). 5 frame singes vs 4 over 4 and side by side sharing heat?


Regarding - "Interesting change from Nov".
The seemingly strong units *typically *very quickly and catastrophically collapse in August/September/for sure October - classic case.
The small units *typically *don't collapse in early fall - but they keep shedding bees through the winter (some quicker than others) and eventually drop below the critical level to just stay warm to survive.
That is the general difference.
No change in my conclusion - the strongest 5 units I had were ALL dead by October (quick collapse and done).
Mid-size/small-size units stretched into March - the last mid-size dropped off in March (some random swarm I had hopes for).
I could have saved a couple of small units in my backyard by plugging the heaters - but I just missed the no-return point in February when it was the real hammer (should just plug them in proactively in February).

Overall, June-made splits seem to be a better bet in my location vs. the July/August-made splits. 
July/August-made splits should be combined - but only if the mite counts indicate such units are compatible to each other as worth saving.
The winter here is too harsh for Mel D's method to work as-written.

But really, any of this stated only makes sense with sufficiently mite-resistant (or is it tolerant?) bees.
I am pretty sure I will rebuild from my consistently surviving line again.

However, any random swarms that will come along are nothing but short-term resource units that will predictably die (well, still hoping for a Russian swarm to land).
The swarms is one reason I still keep harvesting honey/perga after the winter.  
Need to free up my freezers soon here to freeze as many frames as possible - thanks to the COVID, we are doing just that.
A good deal.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

Took a pencil and paper and finally figured out how many distinct known lines I went through in 2016-2020 period.
A single line <> a single queen.

For example, line AR (my own coding) started with 3 sister queens from a known source.
Line FI started with 2 sister queens from a known source
Still, each one queen group was a distinct line - no matter how many queens, as long as they were related.

Most lines, however, were represented by a single queen - each single queen mapping to a randomly caught swarm of unknown origin (so I counted each queen as a line).

So - starting the season of 2016 into season 2020 I went through *14 distinct lines* to the best of my knowledge.

The sole surviving line after three winters - ARAA line (started from a single queen I got in spring of 2017).
The ARAA line contains some lineage from Anarchy Apiaries (Sam Comfort), per my own records that I just found - I kept thinking of Beeweavers for some reason (wrongly).

ARAA line of queens consistently made through 3 winters with no chem treatments (only subject to crude OTS splitting).
With losses, of course.
Some of the losses are due to my own experimentation, mistakes, and stupidity.
Other losses due to the random mating, bad honey, weather, etc.
Still, the ARAA line is living on despite the terrible treatment from me.

This can not be random, dumb luck - rather this is a quality of the ARAA bee - I am sure.

The runner-up was the line AR - but only made through two (2) winters before fading away - no more of these left.
Unfortunately, I probably butchered this line from the start when used 2 of the 3 queens with highly infested commercial swarms - impossible to turn around.
Only one of many mistakes made.

Three lines made through one (1) winter before fading away.
I suspect I simply got lucky by capturing the swarms from well treated apiaries - which then amounted to low mite loads initially - which then allowed them winter once.

Nine lines I had did not even make through one winter.
This is why I think of the most random swarms in my area to be throw-away, short-term resources.

Overall, getting good initial material from well-known TF source to get your program started makes sense (be it Anarchy Apiaries or a resistant feral population or whatever place)
Chasing random swarms in hopes of catching some TF material - does not make much sense in my particular location (and I believe for most locations just the same).


----------



## GregB

Lines (my own codes point to the particular line's origin):
-------------------------------------------
ARAA --> 3 winters --> active...
AR --> 2 winters
SP --> 1 winter
FI2 --> 1 winter
DU1 --> 1 winter
SWC --> 0 winters
MW --> 0 winters
ME --> 0 winters
FI1 --> 0 winters
OR1 --> 0 winters
DU2 --> 0 winters
OR2 --> 0 winters
FI2 --> 0 winters
FI3 --> 0 winters


----------



## AR1

I don't recall you saying, but do you have large commercial apiaries near you? You have said there are some back yard hives that replace frequently from mail order bees. 

I wonder if my swarm last spring has some Russian. They are dark, brown to black, and 4 of 4 survived winter, with no treatment except splitting. I'll never know...but looking forward to splitting again into as many as I can get this year.


----------



## squarepeg

many thanks for the update greg.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> Overall, getting good initial material from well-known TF source to get your program started makes sense (be it Anarchy Apiaries or a resistant feral population or whatever place)
> Chasing random swarms in hopes of catching some TF material - does not make much sense in my particular location (and I believe for most locations just the same).


GregV:

Glad to see your posts- I sincerely hope all is well with you and your family.

Based on your bottom-line conclusions above, have you set out your goals for 2020? Do they involve bringing in some outside genetics or strictly propagation from the two surviving ARRA colonies?


----------



## msl

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



> Overall, getting good initial material from well-known TF source to get your program started makes sense (be it Anarchy Apiaries or a resistant feral population or whatever place)
> Chasing random swarms in hopes of catching some TF material - does not make much sense


I think someone has said that a few time, just can't remember who :lookout:
I have always enjoyed the fact you keep (and share) good records, you are now reaping the benefits, turning your experiences into self-education and sharping your understanding of how things work.


----------



## JWPalmer

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

Greg, hoping that you are able to build upon your success with ARAA line you have cultivated.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> I don't recall you saying, but do you have large commercial apiaries near you? You have said there are some back yard hives that replace frequently from mail order bees.
> 
> I wonder if my swarm last spring has some Russian. They are dark, brown to black, and 4 of 4 survived winter, with no treatment except splitting. I'll never know...but looking forward to splitting again into as many as I can get this year.


AR1,

About 10 miles south of me lives the person who annually runs imported package sales.
This person also runs the own bees yard too - don't know how many (but enough to sell the own nucs too).
That is the closest "commercial" operation that I know about.

Otherwise, lots of back yard beeks of 1-5 hive scale in my vicinity.
Most all of these are the annual bee-buyers (since they always loose their bees and keep re-buying the packages/nucs).

Good news - this year again this bee seller has advertised some Russians for sale (of unknown origin and lineage - the commercial "secret" of theirs) - hence I keep hoping to nail a "Russian" swarm.


----------



## GregB

squarepeg said:


> many thanks for the update greg.


One day, SP, I hope you advertise your queens.
I am interested.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> Glad to see your posts- I sincerely hope all is well with you and your family.
> 
> Based on your bottom-line conclusions above, have you set out your goals for 2020? Do they involve bringing in some outside genetics or strictly propagation from the two surviving ARRA colonies?


Thanks, we are all COVID-hunked down here with the two chest freezers full of food.
Doing well and working/studying "remotely" best we can (which is .... not very productive!) 

The plans is same as before:
- breed my ARAA line the best I can (I HOPE to improve for a change - about frigging time to learn that)
- catch swarms and use them for honey, etc. (and keep hoping for a good catch - small chance, but I got nothing to loose)
- will ask my local TF friend for his good queens also - he too has some line going by now as I understand - by the same brutal approaches
(we can exchange too, now that I got my own lineage to brag about)

The major modification from my previous methods - I mean to learn and practice mite counting.
So to identify the promising units proactively and try my best to keep them alive (NO treatments of course, but feed and heat if must).
Until now I may have wasted some good queens due to my blind flying.


----------



## Juhani Lunden

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> The sole surviving line after three winters - ARAA line (started from a single queen I got in spring of 2017).
> The ARAA line contains some lineage from Anarchy Apiaries (Sam Comfort), per my own records that I just found - I kept thinking of Beeweavers for some reason (wrongly).


:thumbsup:

It pays off to invest in pre-selected stock.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



msl said:


> I think someone has said that a few time, just can't remember who :lookout:
> I have always enjoyed the fact you keep (and share) good records, you are now reaping the benefits, turning your experiences into self-education and sharping your understanding of how things work.


Thanks for an honest discussion and ideas, MSL.
I always appreciate that long-term, regardless of the short-term moods and such.
Heck, regardless of the arguments and such with my own wife, we have been together for 20+ years now. 

I go back and re-read too some good write-ups.

Too much listening to our TF "gurus", I guess, on my part.
 
This was a joke! 
I still like them, the "gurus", BUT I wish they shared some *hard and honest data AND the environmental context of the data * - ....lack of which I am trying to make up on my own. But hey, I am here thanks to reading Leo Sharashkin's web site few years ago, to begin with (him being "guru" or not).

I also mean to create a electronic document about my line history so far (sort of a Gantt chart).
Lack of usable documentation basically renders most all projects un-managable and less useful (that's my IT person rant).

Overall, I lost nothing by doing my own experimentation and learning on my own.
Having some "special" bees a longer term project for me (and no guaranty there).
Having lots of clean bee products is the immediate project - I have succeeded in that just fine.
Especially I like the availability of clean propolis for family usage just about now - the COVID era.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Juhani Lunden said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> It pays off to invest in pre-selected stock.


Agreed, Juhani, in a practical sense.

I mean if I lived 300 years (like Greenland sharks), I may have had different ideas - BUT I will not live that long. 
Meanwhile, people like yourself already done lots of work OR found existing natural bees - silly to not take the advantage of the time and effort spent already.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



JWPalmer said:


> Greg, hoping that you are able to build upon your success with ARAA line you have cultivated.


Thanks.
I really hoped to cross this 3-year mark.
So now it did happen and a time to regroup.

PS: ARAA really means - Arkansas/Anarchy Apiaries - to remind me where I got the bee from.


----------



## crofter

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

"Stand on the shoulders of giants" if you want a view above the crowds!


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> ....
> I wonder if my swarm last spring has some Russian. They are dark, brown to black, and 4 of 4 survived winter, with no treatment except splitting. I'll never know...but looking forward to splitting again into as many as I can get this year.


BTW, AR1, your case may actually fit my lines of wintering a single winter.
This as well could have been a swarm from some well-treated source with initially low mite count - this is how they may have survived.
Fingers crossed - you got the actual Russians.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> Glad to see your posts- ......


Hey, Russ, btw, cool you are documenting those mulled mites.
Give it another 1-2 years.
Maybe we can do a queen exchange!


----------



## Gray Goose

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

Hi Greg,
Glad to hear you and your family are doing well.

your comment:
About 10 miles south of me lives the person who annually runs imported package sales.
This person also runs the own bees yard too - don't know how many (but enough to sell the own nucs too).
That is the closest "commercial" operation that I know about.

hmm so since you have some extra dead outs, maybe some traps 9-10 miles south of you may be in order...

Hope your year goes well.
GG


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



Gray Goose said:


> Hi Greg,
> Glad to hear you and your family are doing well.
> 
> your comment:
> About 10 miles south of me lives the person who annually runs imported package sales.
> This person also runs the own bees yard too - don't know how many (but enough to sell the own nucs too).
> That is the closest "commercial" operation that I know about.
> 
> hmm so since you have some extra dead outs, maybe some traps 9-10 miles south of you may be in order...
> 
> Hope your year goes well.
> GG


Hey GG,
Hope you guys are doing well.

Incidentally, last winter I nailed a new bee yard location (my #7 again) just a 1-2 miles away from that "commercial" bee sales operator.
I mentioned about the new site above, 3-4 months ago.
A complete, lucky accident.
Great, clean location too - next to a state hunting reserve.
I plan to setup an empty yard there soon.
Essentially, it will be a trapping site close enough to the "commercial".
I will make sure the site smells really, really nice - been saving my dead queens.


----------



## Litsinger

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> Hey, Russ, btw, cool you are documenting those mulled mites.
> Give it another 1-2 years.
> Maybe we can do a queen exchange!


Thanks for the encouragement, GregV. I sincerely hope that resistant stock will emerge that can thrive even when taken outside of the ecotype where it has adapted.

Maybe (like Brother Adam) we will discover there are some unexpected positive traits that emerge from some heterozygosity. 

For now, I am simply trying to ascertain what (if any) of our local population has what it takes to sustainably resist varroa without chemical intervention.

Best of success to you and your beekeeping efforts, and Happy Easter to you and your family.

Russ


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> So - starting the season of 2016 into season 2020 I went through *14 distinct lines* to the best of my knowledge.


Found a mistake (not critical though)
Missed a case.
Correction - *15 distinct lines.*

-------------------------------------------
ARAA --> 3 winters --> active...
AR --> 2 winters
DU1 --> 1 winter
FI1 --> 1 winter
SP --> 1 winter
DU2 --> 0 winters
FI2 --> 0 winters
FI3 --> 0 winters
JO1 --> 0 winters 
JO2 --> 0 winters
OR1 --> 0 winters
OR2 --> 0 winters
ME --> 0 winters
MW --> 0 winters
SWC --> 0 winters

Added the missed line JO1.
Re-coded few lines (just for my own record, while at it).

Does not change the outcomes dramatically - the survivability of the lineages is *1/15* in my case.
If not for the import of the pre-selected resistant line, my 3-year survivability would be approaching *zero*.


----------



## msl

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

That is a somber list. 
You now have seen the power of human selection pressure. 
Can I talk you in using the extra time of the "stay at home order" to learn to graft? It is one of the most powerful tools you can harness.
the ability to change the genetics of "almond" swam by simply reaching in to a mini and grabbing an extra queen you have is huge
as is the ability to break a swarm in to nucs and give them a queen.. I shudder to think were I would be this year if not for a swarm I traped and broke in to minis, it saved my but.... efb had crushed me, I had but 7 weak hives left that barely made the winter and screwy spring I think I saw 35# of honey, and most of that wan't surplus, I had to feed back hard (but ya got to pay "rent" to the landowners and wife and that takes honey in a jar, still I got my numbers up and was able to sell queens. Today I am sitting on 15 strong hives that made the winter, 3 bars of graphs in 2 cell builders and ready to start makeing nucs in a big way..

I would not have recovered any were near as well if I had been making splits(they were to weak) or didn't put the swarm to work, and I cerntily wouldn't have had excess queens for sale... this guy has an ok series on this type of thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSWh064m_7Q

the other thing I would think about, was if possible getting some queens form the original ARAA sorce as a grafting mother given how far what you have now may have drifted on out crossing


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



msl said:


> That is a somber list.
> You now have seen the power of human selection pressure.
> Can I talk you in using the extra time of the "stay at home order" to learn to graft? It is one of the most powerful tools you can harness.
> the ability to change the genetics of "almond" swam by simply reaching in to a mini and grabbing an extra queen you have is huge
> as is the ability to break a swarm in to nucs and give them a queen.. I shudder to think were I would be this year if not for a swarm I traped and broke in to minis, it saved my but.... efb had crushed me, I had but 7 weak hives left that barely made the winter and screwy spring I think I saw 35# of honey, and most of that wan't surplus, I had to feed back hard (but ya got to pay "rent" to the landowners and wife and that takes honey in a jar, still I got my numbers up and was able to sell queens. Today I am sitting on 15 strong hives that made the winter, 3 bars of graphs in 2 cell builders and ready to start makeing nucs in a big way..
> 
> I would not have recovered any were near as well if I had been making splits(they were to weak) or didn't put the swarm to work, and I cerntily wouldn't have had excess queens for sale... this guy has an ok series on this type of thing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSWh064m_7Q
> 
> the other thing I would think about, was if possible getting some queens form the original ARAA sorce as a grafting mother given how far what you have now may have drifted on out crossing


Will see about grafting - low priority.
I got lots of horticulture work to do immediately - pruning and pruning, and more pruning.
Transplanting and tree grafting, etc.
Time to plant the veg is already upon me too.
I am diversified into many things and don't worry of the bees too much at the moment.


Really, the last season I had more OTS queen cells that I could use - I put them by 2-3 into the splits and wasted some there.
If to do the same way again, I will split them into single QCs this season and try to mate every single one.
Have been raiding the local Styrofoam dumpster and pulling out Styrofoam shipping boxes - perfect mating nucs for a QC and a cup of bees.
This season also want to build a pilot set of the mini, multi-purpose hives (i. e. Alpines) - a single box works as a fine mating nuc.

Unfortunately, the original ARAA source is no longer - the original Mother was culled due to the excessive defensiveness (killed a dog).
At the time I begged for an off-spring and glad that I did.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

I thought about my yards retroactively as well.
One other thing for this season - no way I am mixing the ARAA bees with any other bees on the same site.

It is possible there is enough horizontal mite transmission going on to negatively affect the survival.


----------



## msl

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



> Really, the last season I had more OTS queen cells that I could use


The main reason I was suggesting grafting was QUALITY queens (and easly portabul cells)


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*

An active hive is not a "line". It is a colony. That's it. A line is something you worked on for 20 years of selection. At least if you understand bee genetics.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



BernhardHeuvel said:


> An active hive is not a "line". It is a colony. That's it. A line is something you worked on for 20 years of selection. At least if you understand bee genetics.


No one said - "an active hive IS a line".
I clearly indicated:


> A single line <> a single queen.


However, any active hive is *a single instance representing some line *(an artificially selected line or a random line).

Just like I am a representative of my family line.
My ancestors and my descendants have some distinguishable commonalities (up to several generations).

PS: no, I don't pretend to be an expert in bee genetics; 
it is a backyard-type project - always was and will stay that way;
no need for snark.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



msl said:


> The main reason I was suggesting grafting was *QUALITY *queens (and easly portabul cells)


I see.
Everyone says - learn grafting (even the "gurus").
Will see, I guess, how the grafting fits with my priorities this summer (not the top priority since this it not an absolute must).

On the other hand, there are too many mixes signals about the said *quality of the grafted queens*.
Not going to get into the subject too much - letting the experts argue it out.
As for me - this is an unknown.

Portability has not been a big issue for me.


----------



## AR1

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> I see.
> Everyone says - learn grafting (even the "gurus").
> Will see, I guess, how the grafting fits with my priorities this summer (not the top priority since this it not an absolute must).
> 
> On the other hand, there are too many mixes signals about the said *quality of the grafted queens*.
> Not going to get into the subject too much - letting the experts argue it out.
> As for me - this is an unknown.
> 
> Portability has not been a big issue for me.


I need a dozen queens, maybe twenty max. Plenty of ways to get that many without grafting. I'll bring you one, if I have any luck this spring.


----------



## msl

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



> On the other hand, there are too many mixes signals about the said quality of the grafted queens.


I would say modern scientific studys don't have any mixed signals on the subject, controlling the age of the larvae has a very large impact on the quality of the queen.. Better queens product better performing hives that make more honey, overwinter better and are more resistant to disease and pathogens and there for likely better performance under mite pressure. 

Cut strips, cell punch, etc can work as well, its all about larva age contoral, but I find it less work to just lift a few larva out of thier cells when I need them.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



AR1 said:


> I need a dozen queens, maybe twenty max. Plenty of ways to get that many without grafting. I'll bring you one, if I have any luck this spring.


Thanks AR.
Will keep in mind.

In all likely-hood, my real issue will be to have enough bees, not the queens.
Can produce many queens, but need the bees to ultimately place the mated queens with.

On your side, though, you do need to proof-run your bees for a couple more years without chems to really see their worth (IF that is your goal).
A single winter maybe just a lucky chance.

So the swarm chasing this season is a must for me.'
Will probably re-queen most all swarms to my own material.
For sure, the obviously non-Russian/non-feral swarms will get re-queened - will be nothing to lose with them per my record.


----------



## GregB

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



msl said:


> ...its all about larva age control ............


Or if just doing the OTS - removing the very first capped QCs will achieve the same - age control.
Or marking the first capped QCs as "age suspects" and still using them as such.
So the age control is not hard outside of grafting, if one to pursue it.

One thing I don't intuitively like of artificial grafting - the human larva selection (essentially a random pick).
The modern science also seems to suggest that the bees do *not *select the larva randomly (there were some refs on BS recently about too).


----------



## AR1

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



GregV said:


> Thanks AR.
> Will keep in mind.
> 
> In all likely-hood, my real issue will be to have enough bees, not the queens.
> Can produce many queens, but need the bees to ultimately place the mated queens with.
> 
> On your side, though, you do need to proof-run your bees for a couple more years without chems to really see their worth (IF that is your goal).
> A single winter maybe just a lucky chance.
> 
> So the swarm chasing this season is a must for me.'
> Will probably re-queen most all swarms to my own material.
> For sure, the obviously non-Russian/non-feral swarms will get re-queened - will be nothing to lose with them per my record.


Maybe a nuc. We'll see how the expansion plan goes. If it goes well, I have two people I will gift hives to, if they still want them. I got my first hives practically free from a relative, and plan to reciprocate down the line. 

I do agree absolutely that one winter is no test. As far as I know, these were just lucky bees in an unusually mild winter. No chems last year, hopefully none this year.


----------



## msl

*Re: Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.*



> The modern science also seems to suggest that the bees do not select the larva randomly


Correct, emergency cells are not random, about 40% of the time the bees pick a larva that would otherwise die before coming a worker and that leads to 40% of the queens coming from a drone line that isn't present in the work force, and there for is not providing any of the traits your are slecting the hive for https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0199124

Emergency cells are made from much older larva, they start with advrage 3 day and then cull the youngest, we want 12-24 hour larva so we can mimic a swarm cells development better http://www.cyfronet.krakow.pl/~rotofils/Tofilski_Czekonska2004.pdf 

from there they WILL do some quality contoral and they chew down around 50% of the cells,
but this doesn't happen when you spreed the cells thin in nucs... is they don't have a surplus to choose form, they are stuck playing the cards you dealt them.. seems like walkaways are best "by the box" , or maby Sam Comfort style and do pauper splits, small queen less nucs, we will see what the study on them brings https://projects.sare.org/project-reports/one19-326/



> Or if just doing the OTS - removing the very first capped QCs will achieve the same - age control.
> Or marking the first capped QCs as "age suspects" and still using them as such.


it would be easier if that is was what happens, but its not. Seems the older larve has some (nutritional maby) catch up to do to meet the short capping times of a queen cell vs a worrker 
TofilskiCzekonska (2004)
" The precapping period of queens reared from brood, which was younger at the time of dequeening, tended to be shorter than the precapping period of queens reared from older brood"
"The total development time of queens reared from brood that was younger at the time of dequeening tended to be shorter than the total development time of queens reared form older brood" 
"Our data show that both the precapping period and the whole development time of emergency queens increase with the age of brood from which the queens were reared (Fig. 3). Thus, estimations of brood age in emergency queen cells based on time of capping (Winston,1979; Fell and Morse, 1984; Hatch et al., 1999; Schneider and DeGrandi-Hoffman, 2002) cannot be very accurate"


After all that, swarm cells and grafted cells tend to produce 50% better queens then emergency cells, and 35% of emergency queens are rapidly superseded 
Lets face is its not a normal path for the bees to make a queen, needing to make a E cell is very rare in nature. 

while is may be counter intuitive, with "cultured cells" (graft, strip, punch, nicot, etc) we are better intimating the natural process of swarm cells, The random choosing of larva (queen randomly lays egg in swarm cell) and the use of as young a larvae as we can reasonably move (swarm cell larva are fed as queens as soon as they hatch) to make quality queens.


----------



## GregB

Thanks for the refs, MSL.

Speaking of the swarm cells being the best - that is exactly what I did the last season in June (swarm control splits).
Essentially waited out until the swarm cells were in making before splitting.
It really was an unplanned, urgent splitting done on the spot.

My current survivors came from the true swarm cells - just incidentally (I don't think it made them anymore resistant though).

The issue is obvious with the swarm cells - takes the close monitoring (not always possible or convenient).


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Thanks for the refs, MSL.
> 
> Speaking of the swarm cells being the best - that is exactly what I did the last season in June (swarm control splits).
> Essentially waited out until the swarm cells were in making before splitting.
> It really was an unplanned, urgent splitting done on the spot.
> 
> My current survivors came from the true swarm cells - just incidentally (I don't think it made them anymore resistant though).
> 
> The issue is obvious with the swarm cells - takes the close monitoring (not always possible or convenient).


Greg,
this is somewhat my SOP. the 1 or 2 hives I like, Add a super of dead out honey, create the dome, do not give space. Check every 6 days for Swarm cells.
Get a couple dud hives (fodder) ready, when cells are spoted, use the dud hive as bees and combs add the frame with Q cell , Viola a split with a Q Swarm cell .
Here is one last year with 14 cells visible.









can be done with a 5 x 5 NUC if you only need 2 or 3 cells


----------



## msl

> My current survivors came from the true swarm cells - just incidentally (I don't think it made them anymore resistant though).


How were their parents raised, splits or swarm cells? 



> The issue is obvious with the swarm cells - takes the close monitoring (not always possible or convenient


)
but as your down to just 2... no issue puting them in the back yard to "watch"
if you recall I had PMed you some information on eastern European "swarm keeper" rigs you fit to the fount of a hive.. Still think that sort of thing, maby with a nuc stack. would fit in realy well with your program...
place a QE, mange them to fill the top box with honey and let them swarm. Move swarm and break old hive in to nucs, and or cut out cells, and or use swarm to fill mating nucs...and harvest the top box

while some may say your selecting for "swarmy" bees.... swarmy bees mostly means they don't respond to swarm control measures, in this case the cavity is sized to cause swarming so early swarming (should) indicates overwintered vigor
now all you need to do is look out a window every few days and see if the swam keeper is filled up...


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> How were their parents raised, splits or swarm cells?
> 
> )
> but as your down to just 2... no issue puting them in the back yard to "watch"
> if you recall I had PMed you some information on eastern European "swarm keeper" rigs you fit to the fount of a hive.. Still think that sort of thing, maby with a nuc stack. would fit in realy well with your program...
> place a QE, mange them to fill the top box with honey and let them swarm. Move swarm and break old hive in to nucs, and or cut out cells, and or use swarm to fill mating nucs...and harvest the top box
> 
> while some may say your selecting for "swarmy" bees.... swarmy bees mostly means they don't respond to swarm control measures, in this case the cavity is sized to cause swarming so early swarming (should) indicates overwintered vigor
> now all you need to do is look out a window every few days and see if the swam keeper is filled up...


I always tried (and mostly succeeded) to force the swarm cells before I split my bees.
I'd pull them along for as long as I could in a tight setup so to force the crowding - and keep monitoring.
That is still the ideal goal.
Swarmy bees is really not a big deal - as long as they survive, the #1 criteria.

Unfortunately, my current survivors are on one of my remote sites (well only 3-4 miles away - not terribly far).
I prefer to "not fix what is not broken" and keep them on that exact site, despite some inconvenience.
In case, the site is a factor too; maybe the mating situation is better there - entirely possible.

So around May/June I just will go here once per week (or more often) and be ready for immediate action (ready for splitting on the spot; mating nucs in a truck).

The backyard is, while convenient, has some mite-susceptible bees nearby.
The back porch has been a reliable swarm trapping location - for mite-susceptible bees (they die every time) but I will take them regardless.
Don't really want to do any mating here for now as all ARAA/AR mated queens around my backyard just died in 2019.
The backyard vicinity maybe bad for mating.

PS: yes, that "swarm trap" article; meant to reply, but forgot; will so some of that around my surviving yard; the traps - for sure.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Greg,
> this is somewhat my SOP. the 1 or 2 hives I like, Add a super of dead out honey, create the dome, do not give space. Check every 6 days for Swarm cells.
> Get a couple dud hives (fodder) ready, when cells are spoted, use the dud hive as bees and combs add the frame with Q cell , Viola a split with a Q Swarm cell .
> Here is one last year with 14 cells visible.
> 
> View attachment 54665
> 
> 
> can be done with a 5 x 5 NUC if you only need 2 or 3 cells


Makes sense, GG.

Hopefully, I get few swarms to use as the "duds" this year.
The records show, the swarms here are mostly duds anyway.
For sure, I could use some duds.


----------



## msl

> I prefer to "not fix what is not broken" and keep them on that exact site, despite some inconvenience.


I would argue as long as you move back to mate on that site post swarm your ok.. 
loss of the "breeder" do to swarming could be more then in an inconvenience, as swarming/small hives are shown to increase wild survival this may be a way to push your queens to make more then one winter 

not a swarm trap, a keeper, box/cage that mounts to the hive that causes the swarm to bivouack in/on the cage as the queen can't escape


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> I would argue as long as you move back to mate on that site post swarm your ok..
> loss of the "breeder" do to swarming could be more then in an inconvenience, as swarming/small hives are shown to increase wild survival this may be a way to push your queens to make more then one winter
> 
> *not a swarm trap, a keeper, box/cage that mounts to the hive* that causes the swarm to bivouack in/on the cage as the queen can't escape


Oh this! Yes.
This is a great idea and I should implement, in fact.
Not hard at all.

Yep - agreed; loosing the "breeder" would be the real drag, beyond the inconvenience.

Anyway, moving full-size, active hives is kinda the real hassle I would rather avoid.
I have done it, but only due to the dire circumstances (when asked to leave).
But also, I am a little hesitant to have these exact bees in the backyard, given their defensive traits (not the friends with some neighbors as is).


----------



## Litsinger

GregV, MSL and Gray Goose:

While I haven't anything of substance to add, just wanted to comment that I appreciated the back-and-forth- a lot of good ideas in there.

Although I tend to philosophically-align more with the idea of colony-directed queen rearing, MSL's comment about how well-timed grafting is likely better than emergency queen rearing makes a lot of sense.

Reminded me that just because a colony can do something (like raise queens from older larvae) that doesn't mean that is what they would do when given the choice (obviously). 

So while it may be ideal to let the colony pick the egg and pick the timing to raise queen(s), this often does not align well with our apiary plans / goals.

I'm not saying anything that you all don't already know, just pointing out that the right answer regarding queen rearing likely is 'it depends'.

I appreciate everyone's input.

Russ


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> And so to conclude this case cleanly - 2/19 is the final toll.
> 10%........


Shoot.
I have to stay honest and report a terrible year - 1/19 (5%).

I thought I was done for the year - NOT.
The weaker of the ARAA hives dwindled even more and froze on brood during the deep freeze last week - terrible, horrible April 2020 (10 days with freezing or lower temps and way late).








The only good news is the last standing ARAA unit is strong and healthy, and feisty - my sole breeder queen for 2020.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Shoot.
> I have to stay honest and report a terrible year - 1/19 (5%).
> 
> I thought I was done for the year - NOT.
> The weaker of the ARAA hives dwindled even more and froze on brood during the deep freeze last week - terrible, horrible April 2020 (10 days with freezing or lower temps and way late).
> View attachment 54861
> 
> 
> The only good news is the last standing ARAA unit is strong and healthy, and feisty - my sole breeder queen for 2020.


when you catch a few swarms, re queen from the ARAA egg source., I have 5 hives I "like" so hoping to eventually split them all 3-4 ways, requeen a few i am not happy with.

View attachment Miller Presentation Sweatman FINAL.pdf


for 4-6 queens I was going to try both the Miller and the Alley method, I think after slicing off a few rows, the original frame can be put into a hive as well.
not sure if the attachment will come thru, PM me I can send it .



GG


----------



## crofter

GG;

Good link on rearing methods. I am planning to try a few with cell punch as well as a few with a cut strip. The cell punch does not do much damage to comb but a little more involved mounting separate plugs.


----------



## Gray Goose

crofter said:


> GG;
> 
> Good link on rearing methods. I am planning to try a few with cell punch as well as a few with a cut strip. The cell punch does not do much damage to comb but a little more involved mounting separate plugs.


:thumbsup:

Hi Frank, that is the next one I want to try. Depending on ones point of view... I am mentoring 3 people with 4-5 hives each. Too much time IMO, 1 is about to give up...

So I am showing them the methods to get 4-6 queens one time per season. But I need to do a couple dry runs so the old guy knows what he is doing.
I have a box of thin surplus, I cut into strips, for supers so I intend to make a wire less brood frame and give it a go. Considering doing a medium frame then just use it in a super., May do a deep not completely sure, it depend on the brood nest I am going to use. I did watch a couple videos on the punch method, one could get 3-4 from 2 or 3 different hives to use so that would be the value to me. the genetic diversity would be a factor, Right now if I could get 3 queens from each of the 5 target hives I would be a happy camper. Punch would do that.

Maybe you will need a thread and document the process for us less trained folks.

good luck
GG


----------



## crofter

I usually let the snelgrove board produce the cells but am gearing up to get some moveable queen cells. My son grafts and I have watched him. He uses regular deeps with dividers to mate. Pretty effortless to make up winter losses. I have put starter strips on frames to get them drawn and laid up; sometimes the queen is working someplace else and does not perform on my command so timing is not predictable. This year I have a queen cage frame made so hopefully make things more predictable.

Grafting is the most flexible but I cant manage. I think I may be able to talk my wife into giving it a go since her eyes are sharp and she sure has a steadier hand. I like an operation where I can supervise!

Depending on swarm cells is riskier for losing a swarm. Snelgrove is OK queens but Greg would think that is way too much fussing around; It keeps me out of the pool room or chasing cars, so it is all good. Snelgrove system gives you something of the emergency queen factor so I want to see if I can make some of those bragging size queen cells with larvae of a known age in a crowded cell starter.

Greg needs to get some production going but it is hard with that few bees for resources. That is near where I was last spring with one good survivor colony and one queenless cripple. No swarms to catch here.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> when you catch a few swarms, re queen from the ARAA egg source., I have 5 hives I "like" so hoping to eventually split them all 3-4 ways, requeen a few i am not happy with.
> 
> View attachment 54863
> 
> 
> for 4-6 queens I was going to try both the Miller and the Alley method, I think after slicing off a few rows, the original frame can be put into a hive as well.
> not sure if the attachment will come thru, PM me I can send it .
> 
> 
> 
> GG


Thanks GG.
I do need to mate as many queens as possible this season.
Given I have plenty of free foam shipping boxes, will go for the MSL-style mating this year and see how it goes.
Not many bees to spare - a cup per a box will do.


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> ......
> 
> Depending on swarm cells is riskier for losing a swarm. Snelgrove is OK queens but Greg would think that is way too much fussing around; It keeps me out of the pool room or chasing cars, so it is all good. Snelgrove system gives you something of the emergency queen factor so I want to see if I can make some of those bragging size queen cells with larvae of a known age in a crowded cell starter.
> 
> Greg needs to get some production going but it is hard with that few bees for resources. That is near where I was last spring with one good survivor colony and one queenless cripple. No swarms to catch here.


Frank, I have high motivation to make myself a swarm preventing device this year.
It will be like this one (thanks to MSL for the ref):
https://pigeonmountaintrading.com/products/swarm-bandit

Any swarm trapping proceeds this year will get re-queened - mostly worthless material anyway in my area, as I documented.
Got tons of empty and well primed equipment sitting around for trapping.
So as far as trapping goes, I am very well set.


----------



## crofter

GregV said:


> Frank, I have high motivation to make myself a swarm preventing device this year.
> It will be like this one (thanks to MSL for the ref):
> https://pigeonmountaintrading.com/products/swarm-bandit
> 
> Any swarm trapping proceeds this year will get re-queened - mostly worthless material anyway in my area, as I documented.
> Got tons of empty and well primed equipment sitting around for trapping.
> So as far as trapping goes, I am very well set.


How do you deal with the drones? You run a lot of foundationless so I know you will have plenty.


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> How do you deal with the drones? You run a lot of foundationless so I know you will have plenty.


Foundation-less I am and the drones are a plenty (part of the problem due to the mite generation; but I need them drones too to flood the area best I can).

This is how I killed my overwintered queens, pretty sure - I let them produce unlimited drones all summer long.
At some point I need to break the breeder queens out of the "drone generation" program and move away to save them.
The "drone generation" program is a predictable way to kill a colony - it is fine as long as managed properly as a throw-away unit used for drone/honey production.
Just need to relocate the queen out of the "drone production" at the proper time into a young, drone-free colony.
Say, mid-summer is a good time to move the breeder queen to safety (ideally, a low-mite nuc).

Anyways, that "swarm preventer" gizmo is to be used short-term when pushing the unit into the swarming mode by design.
Say, I will keep them tight in May/June and watch closely for SCs.
At that high pressure time, to mitigate the risk of loosing the breeder Q, the gizmo must be ON.

Otherwise, no need to keep the gizmo on at all times - the drones can and should fly freely.

PS: I wish I could just "keep the bees" and no gymnastics; guess not.


----------



## msl

My understanding is the pigeon Mt ones are too small to work well..
the ones I have seen pictures of (but cant find right now) in polish apairys were much bigger, more like this one made by a local shop https://dakotabees.com/shop/ols/products/swarm-keeper


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## crofter

It seems like a lot of activity to get good quality queen cells started that still need manipulation into mating colonies. People producing any number of queens would not embrace it. 

Question is are the queens any better quality? Is it really more convenient? Maybe if you are planning for it, but every time a swarm occurred for me it was a dithering scramble. Just trying to recover it is one thing but to divvy up the resources into separate colonies and make best use of the cells as part of a selective breeding process at the same time, might get a bit manic.

Compared to the use of 48 hr cells it would be a slow way of spreading a select queens genetics.


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## GregB

msl said:


> My understanding is the pigeon Mt ones are too small to work well..
> the ones I have seen pictures of (but cant find right now) in polish apairys were much bigger, more like this one made by a local shop https://dakotabees.com/shop/ols/products/swarm-keeper


Will build my custom piece; reasonably bigger is better for sure.


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## GregB

Well, friends, my last queen failed.
Too bad.
Such strong overwintered hive I had many plans for - turned into laying workers.
That makes it 100% loss for me.
The worst year I had.

As promised, just saying like it is.


PS: well, of course today I caught my first swarm for the 2020 season - just some recent package material, sad to even look at these sleepy bees sold to the general populace;
guess, at least I got some expandable resource on hand so I can insert better material into if any comes along.


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> Well, friends, my last queen failed.
> Too bad.
> Such strong overwintered hive I had many plans for - turned into laying workers.
> That makes it 100% loss for me.
> The worst year I had.
> 
> As promised, just saying like it is.
> 
> 
> PS: well, of course today I caught my first swarm for the 2020 season - just some recent package material, sad to even look at these sleepy bees sold to the general populace;
> guess, at least I got some expandable resource on hand so I can insert better material into if any comes along.


Well, that's harsh. 

Surprised you already have a caught swarm. I have seen no signs of scouting into my bait hives yet. Thought I did, but then decided it was probably bees harvesting a little left-over honey.


----------



## Absinthe

How is it that you generate drones intentionally, in foundation-less? And what makes the queen shift back into regular worker production?


----------



## GregB

Absinthe said:


> How is it that you generate drones intentionally, in foundation-less? And what makes the queen shift back into regular worker production?


With foundation-less they build what they want to build, as much as they want it.
It is goes in parallel - little bit of drone, more of the workers, on and on.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Well, friends, my last queen failed.
> Too bad.
> Such strong overwintered hive I had many plans for - turned into laying workers.
> That makes it 100% loss for me.
> The worst year I had.
> 
> As promised, just saying like it is.
> 
> 
> PS: well, of course today I caught my first swarm for the 2020 season - just some recent package material, sad to even look at these sleepy bees sold to the general populace;
> guess, at least I got some expandable resource on hand so I can insert better material into if any comes along.


that is a bummer Greg.
My Condolences, 100% is a rough spring, been there.
GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> that is a bummer Greg.
> My Condolences, 100% is a rough spring, been there.
> GG


Thanks GG.
For sure, this per-annual suburban package buying crowd here makes it like staying next to a migratory commercial yard. 
Really is - no different.
Terrible.

I am envious of our friends down South with all those beautiful feral swarms.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Well, that's harsh.
> 
> Surprised you already have a caught swarm. I have seen no signs of scouting into my bait hives yet. Thought I did, but then decided it was probably bees harvesting a little left-over honey.


Picked up a call from a local beekeeping list (beauty of "working from home").
The lady has three very pretty looking, very new, and very tiny Warre hives (and no more space for those "booming" bees - of course).
I am sure there will be more multiple swarms in her yard pretty soon.

PS: joking aside, I was impressed how well her package bees wintered in those thin walled, tiny hives; 
outside and no wraps - there is a roof over the stands and wind-breaking fence (that's some help).
I really want to try out a compact vertical setup.


----------



## msl

> just some recent package material, sad to even look at these sleepy bees sold to the general populace;


but they are alive, if they hand overwintered in your yard they would be the next best/latest/greatest survivor line

did she treat them last year?


----------



## JWPalmer

Greg, sorry to hear about the last hive going south on you. Best of luck with the swarm trapping this year. Maybe you will get some decent genetics, if you can avoid those package swarms.


----------



## Absinthe

GregV said:


> With foundation-less they build what they want to build, as much as they want it.
> It is goes in parallel - little bit of drone, more of the workers, on and on.


I get that, but you made it sound like if you put the queen in one hive she would lay all drone, and it sounded like you were doing it on purpose. Then you suggested you got to a point of being done with that and if you moved her somewhere else she would start laying worker brood. Did I just misunderstand what you were saying?


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> did she treat them last year?


Did not ask; I will email and ask her.

I am not surprised to see most any bees survive one winter, I had enough of those.
The second winter is hard to achieve.


----------



## GregB

Absinthe said:


> I get that, but *you made it sound like if you put the queen in one hive she would lay all drone, and it sounded like you were doing it on purpose.* Then you suggested you got to a point of being done with that and if you moved her somewhere else she would start laying worker brood. Did I just misunderstand what you were saying?


After the rounds of the off-splitting in June (I made fly-back splits), I had the old queens/colonies left alone without anymore manipulations for July, August, September, etc.

This means they grew big, produced lots of drone, and produced lots of honey.
It was done on purpose to specifically 1)produce lots of drone and 2)produce lots of honey.

But this also means I set these old queens/colonies to fail --> lots of unlimited drone means explosive growth of mite population, which exactly what happened.
I sometimes in July, I should have found the old queens and pulled them into brood-less artificial shook swarms trying to save them for later.
But did not think of it at the time - just recently his idea occurred to me.


----------



## msl

> After a initial round of the off-splitting in June (I made fly-back splits), I had the old queens/colonies left alone without anymore manipulations for July, August, September, etc.
> 
> This means they grew big, produced lots of drone, and produced lots of honey.
> It was done on purpose to specifically 1)produce lots of drone and 2)produce lots of honey.


interesting as I see very little drone comb and low mites loads form my fly backs (but saw a lot of poor queens) how did you set them up?


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Did not ask; I will email and ask her.
> 
> I am not surprised to see most any bees survive one winter, I had enough of those.
> The second winter is hard to achieve.


She said:


> No chemical treatments, although I did check for mites. They’ve been a very strong/hygienic set of bees all on their own. I don’t interfere with them very much!


I believe this is not uncommon for a fresh package to look just like that the first season (it is was likely aggressively treated before being sold).
Hence the impression of "very strong/hygienic" bees.

However, I am still wanting to test out those Warre-like hives on natural comb for myself.
Just for the ergonomy of them.
That's what the lady has.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> interesting as I see very little drone comb and low mites loads form my fly backs (but saw a lot of poor queens) how did you set them up?


A classic fly-back:
- a queen on a frame with brood where she was found - she stays in the old hive
- fill the old hive with the frames with crap combs after the honey harvest they way I do it (like the pictured)













- those crap combs usually have sections of drone comb in them and the old queen usually fill them out very well with the drone
- but even when they repair the combs and fill in the cut-outs, they often build drone comb into them.

In general, I get lots of drone; as much as I want to have it - I get. And them some.

The fly-back splits supposed to be cutting the mites down - in theory it makes sense.
However, so far every time I did the fly-backs my way - they crashed in early fall/mid fall.


----------



## msl

I think your letting your prejudices blind you
They have performed at least as well as anything you have had, she had a much higher survival rate then your TF experiences.
if you had started these hives from swarms and they were sitting your yard, strong enuf to swarm early you would be jumping up and down and telling all of us you had found "it" they all overwintered and were strong

maybe they swarmed in the 1st year in the small boxes, maybe she got commercial VSH stock (Sam Comfort buys hundreds of VSH cells a year), maybe the warre is better suited to TF in your area, maybe she wasn't next to collapsing TF hives, Maybe her management was different 
stuff to look in to 
But I wouldn't discount the stock just because it was purchased
if I was you, I would be hitting her up and letting her know if she doesn't go thin out the queen cells the hive can swarm a few more times, and gee you willing to come show her how .. break the swam in to mating nucs and use those cells

ahh your providing comb
the "classic" flyback doesn't use drawn comb, the shortage keeps them in expansion mode drawing about as fast ans the queen can lay and like a swarm they don't draw much drone


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> I think your letting your prejudices blind you........


I know one thing - this season I will be ruthlessly combining the hives in fall.
Whatever they are (package, feral, TF source) - any units with the mite counts low enough (the ultimate grading which I did not practice before) - these colonies will be dumped 2 and 3 together in fall.

If I have 20 units in August again (entirely possible with my ways) - I will combine them down to 5-10 and let them ride it out.
Will take 50% loss in fall artificially.

If made urgent combines in March and April this spring (which I did not), I could have at least 1-2 units of my own.
This late winter/early spring attrition is a killer in my climate.
(last snow we had this year so far - May 10; last below freezing night so far - May 9 to May 10).


----------



## GregB

JWPalmer said:


> Greg, sorry to hear about the last hive going south on you. Best of luck with the swarm trapping this year. Maybe you will get some decent genetics, if you can avoid those package swarms.


Thanks.
I have to say, I am somewhat optimistic with the package swarms - the second year in a row now they have been selling Russian packages (from unknown Russian supplier).
So the Russian genetics are entering the pool.
There have to be some swarms from the last year's packages.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> .........
> ahh your providing comb
> the "classic" flyback doesn't use drawn comb, the shortage keeps them in expansion mode drawing about as fast ans the queen can lay and like a swarm they don't draw much drone


It just depends, MSL.
IF I have those cut-out frames - I will put them in checker-boarded.
Look at the picture - one frame is 100% cut-out; the other 40% cut-out.
I would checkerboard them - there is PLENTY of comb building to do.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV:

I am sincerely sorry to hear about your final hive from last year failing, and I do earnestly hope you are able to secure some suitable genetics this year that can serve as the basis of your operation going forward.

While I am in no position to offer you advice, my humble opinion is that your idea of combining weaker colonies at the end of the season seems meritorious to me.

Looking at it from the other angle, would more modest splitting efforts give fewer and more populous colonies the opportunity to get better set-up for the long, harsh winters you deal with or are you assuming that the colonies are dealing with smaller clusters due directly to mite load issues?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> I am sincerely sorry to hear about your final hive from last year failing, and I do earnestly hope you are able to secure some suitable genetics this year that can serve as the basis of your operation going forward.
> 
> While I am in no position to offer you advice, my humble opinion is that your idea of combining weaker colonies at the end of the season seems meritorious to me.
> 
> Looking at it from the other angle, would more modest splitting efforts give fewer and more populous colonies the opportunity to get better set-up for the long, harsh winters you deal with or are you assuming that the colonies are dealing with smaller clusters due directly to mite load issues?


I think, Russ, I need to start measuring the mite situation so I know what I have on hand.
Until I know the mite situation (outside of obvious cases) - I really can not plan my steps ahead properly.
For example, combining a high-mite unit with a low-mite unit would be a bad decision.

I feel making and mating more (not fewer) queens is a good approach - this way you have many more possible mating outcomes (rolling the dice more times is better and provides more options to choose from).

In general, without OA treatments, even a low-mite unit will likely have prohibitively high rate of attrition (in my conditions).
So starting the winter with a much *bigger * than average body count should pull you thru.
That is the plan.


----------



## GregB

Well, gee, caught me a second swarm today.
Small, but enough to raise bees for queen mating purposes.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> I think, Russ, I need to start measuring the mite situation so I know what I have on hand.
> Until I know the mite situation (outside of obvious cases) - I really can not plan my steps ahead properly.
> For example, combining a high-mite unit with a low-mite unit would be a bad decision.
> 
> I feel making and mating more (not fewer) queens is a good approach - this way you have many more possible mating outcomes (rolling the dice more times is better and provides more options to choose from).


GregV:

Thank you for your feedback, and I apologize for my delay in reply. I certainly cannot argue with your logic. Makes sense to me.

Also, I recognize (though maybe cannot fully appreciate) that your season and foraging conditions are quite a bit different than mine.

For my part, I seem to always get bitten when I get too aggressive in dividing up resources, likely due in large part to our relatively short but intense foraging period.

Glad to hear that you have some new swarm material to work with- here's hoping that both turn out to be diamonds in the rough.

Russ


----------



## msl

> In general, without OA treatments, even a low-mite unit will likely have prohibitively high rate of attrition (in my conditions).
> So starting the winter with a much bigger than average body count should pull you thru.


yet, the lady with the little warres had much better survival rate then you have had, there may be something to it.


----------



## Gray Goose

msl said:


> yet, the lady with the little warres had much better survival rate then you have had, there may be something to it.


could be heat

GG


----------



## GregB

OK, got traps in 8 locations.
Fingers crossed (darn rain!!!!)

Hopefully, in few weeks I get enough host units (of random origins) from the swarm chasing program 2020.
Then we'll see.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> OK, got traps in 8 locations.
> Fingers crossed (darn rain!!!!)
> 
> Hopefully, in few weeks I get enough host units (of random origins) from the swarm chasing program 2020.
> Then we'll see.


Rain is GOOD, the die off is delayed by each rain day and the crowing increases. then on the first nice day they swarm....
If the spots have produced, they should again.

good luck Greg

GG


----------



## msl

^yep

swinging back around


GregV said:


> In late August of 2016, I took a small swarm off a branch.
> These ones (look at the conditions):
> View attachment 55921
> 
> Hived them into a plywood trap hive and fed them straight sugar ('cause I had nothing else).
> They overwintered OK...


we see small working again


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> ^yep
> 
> swinging back around
> 
> *we see small working again*


I don't really know what this means and implies.

<deleted comment>


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> OK, got traps in 8 locations.
> Fingers crossed (darn rain!!!!)
> 
> Hopefully, in few weeks I get enough host units (of random origins) from the swarm chasing program 2020.
> Then we'll see.


The uncertainty of swarm trapping is half the fun, right?

Good luck- hopefully some of your catches are genetic winners.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> The uncertainty of swarm trapping is half the fun, right?
> 
> Good luck- hopefully some of your catches are genetic winners.
> 
> Russ


I don't know if there will be any winners in my suburbia.
For some reason I feel as if I don't care as much since it is hard to work against the tide of the imported packages.
It seems as if the interest in bee purchases only increased around here.
The local seller kept bringing more and more shipments.
Every time she would send spam around about the "last chance" to buy the bees.
Then the show repeated again, and again.

I accidentally helped a new beek who did not even own a smoker or a hive tool (she did not know of their usefulness, but she owned the bees).
What I observe is basically out of control disaster and the bee sellers are complicit in that, in my view.

Oh well, as long as I get quality bee products at the expense of my time - this program works for me.
Ultimately, I am a "foodie" and suburban survivalist and why I decided to bother with the bees in the first place, after much deliberation.
With that, I will just continue my bottom feeding operations because I can.
It is like being next to a huge commercial bee yard here and the free bees will be always available for short-term exploiting them.

I suppose the Russian bees are becoming a vogue lately, so who knows what will be flying about.
And of course, some people will be quickly disenchanted with them because they cannot "keep their bees in t-shorts and flops" (Sam Comfort style).
Maybe I can salvage some mean queen that way from some frightened suburbanite newbie.


For only $200 one can get a local Russian nuc from Washington Island, WI.
https://mailchi.mp/02b89b42e004/rus...kokie-green-bay-and-more-4186337?e=ac19e703c3
Too bad, most people already spent their budgets on the "almond bee" packages.

Interest in my backyard is gone down to zero.
I feel several rainy days interrupted some pending swarms somewhere. 
Bummer.
But this is how it went last year too on the backyard (lots if interest --> nothing --> sudden interest resurgence --> swarm).
Still early in the season.

At least the May 12th swarm is booming.
Inspected them after two-week grace period and I like them OK.
I will make some queens from them and mate them using little foam shipping containers for the fun of it.
Then decide what to do next.

Of interest, I visited my not-meant-to-be breeding colony yesterday as I need to reorganize my equipment.
The darn things are still alive (one-two handfuls maybe) and are still tending to their drones.
Drones are flying.
I let them do it for as long as they can.
I want those drones to be patrolling the vicinity.

Of double-interest - I was thinking - how old are these bees? 
I even saw one bee bringing in pollen.
They may have hatched in winter, as I just don't believe these bees are still from fall 2019.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV:

While it is sheer speculation on my part, I would not be surprised to learn that there are either individual bees and / or genetic profiles that live significantly longer than average- part of Brother Adam's definition for vitality included longevity, which just makes sense to me.

While I understand that your program does not require a stellar overwintering percentage, I do selfishly hope you latch on to some good bees that work well for you despite all the challenges.

Glad to read that you've got some interesting things developing.

Russ


----------



## AR1

No scouts here either, since I split my bigger colony a few days ago. No scouts from outside my hives either, which seems a bit odd. Still, it is early. I do know one local no longer has bees, sold the house and moved last fall. I suspect his were the source of the swarm I caught last May, since he was closest at only a few hundred meters away. I know of a few more backyard hives within a mile or less.

I had a very weak colony, a few hundred bees that survived until fall. They fought moths and SHBs and eventually absconded after I tried rehiving them and moving them. It was interesting to watch them over the months as they very slowly increased the brood patch from a few inches across. Between the bugs and bad beekeeper they didn't have much chance. They became weak because I had overwrapped the colony in winter and they got very wet. Now I would try putting them in a nuc with a tiny entrance early in the spring to help them control the internal conditions better and more defensible. Since then I am trying just insulation on top and it appears to be a lot better.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> While it is sheer speculation on my part,* I would not be surprised to learn that there are either individual bees and / or genetic profiles that live significantly longer than average*- part of Brother Adam's definition for vitality included longevity, which just makes sense to me.
> 
> While I understand that your program does not require a stellar overwintering percentage, I do selfishly hope you latch on to some good bees that work well for you despite all the challenges.
> 
> Glad to read that you've got some interesting things developing.
> 
> Russ


Possibility.
Which would be amazing.

Still somewhat sore of loosing my 3-year long project - I was patient enough for long enough.

On the other hand, I figure maybe small format vertical hives are indeed giving just enough edge in my climate.
Worthwhile to experiment, which I will do.


----------



## msl

GregV said:


> I don't really know what this means and implies.
> >


this


GregV said:


> I figure maybe small format vertical hives are indeed giving just enough edge in my climate.
> Worthwhile to experiment, which I will do.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> this


Ah, yes.
I have been pondering on the subject and shoveled through tons of material (hence posted a lot in the "warre" sub-forum too).
Like I said, I will try.
Have pretty much everything drawn out on paper.


----------



## crofter

Do varroa mites not survive well on taller aspect hives?


----------



## Absinthe

crofter said:


> Do varroa mites not survive well on taller aspect hives?


I am dubious as to the aspect ratio having anything to do with the varoa mites. Was that suggested?


----------



## JWPalmer

Absinthe said:


> I am dubious as to the aspect ratio having anything to do with the varoa mites.


 I think that was the point.


----------



## GregB

Absinthe said:


> I am dubious as to the aspect ratio having anything to do with the varoa mites. Was that suggested?


<deleted>

Aspect ratio has to do with general energy efficiency and micro-climate control in cold climate.
That is all.


----------



## msl

> Do varroa mites not survive well on taller aspect hives?


less brood rearing, more swarming. Both help lower varroa levels. 
better cluster thermodynamics can't hurt either. 
Less bees to over winter means you can make more/later splits


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> less brood rearing, more swarming. Both help lower varroa levels.
> better cluster thermodynamics can't hurt either.
> Less bees to over winter means you can make more/later splits


+1.
I am not pursuing ~100% survival.
~50% survival is sufficient for me IF achieved consistently and with the least work/expense possible.

If this ~50% goal is achieved and is sustainable, that should be sufficient for most hobbyists/small scale operators to operate in a sustainable fashion.

This is essentially normal seasonal expansion/contraction dynamic (expand in summer/contract in winter).
The only difference from *natural *expansion/contraction dynamic is higher rate of survival achieved by human intervention (e.g. by emergency feeding, colony combines/splittings where appropriate, optimal hive configuration to support smaller colony survival, rudimentary bee material selection, etc). 

Natural survival rates would be somewhere in 10-20% where human intervention should be able to push it up to ~50% rate just using normal and routine management techniques.
The 50% is a nominal # since I have nothing to use for a better reference - have to have some # down (anywhere in 40-60% is good enough).

Of course, I have not achieved the 50% goal so far which has been honestly reported here.


----------



## GregB

Fun no-sound video (English subs available).
Basically, an abandoned bee yard, since about two years or so not touched.
Old beek was no longer able to.
Obviously, even before he could not really handle the project anymore.
The bees and hives were to be given away (for free I guess).

Did the bees die?
Heck no, they did not die.
Not all of them died, to be exact.
They took 6 colonies with them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK_cGYyGbws


----------



## Litsinger

GregV:

Glad to read about the swarm catches over on the 'Trapping' forum. Good for you.

While I am no expert, I noticed that both tree colonies I trapped out last year lived in overall volumes that were much smaller than the 'ideal' volume identified as the preference by Dr. Seeley's work.

I am in no wise suggesting that these colonies picked these voids out of many alternatives (may have been all that was available to them), but it is interesting to observe colonies that persist in cavities that are smaller than we would typically provide for them in managed settings.

Interesting video- what is the back story? Were they called in to evaluate an abandoned apiary?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> Glad to read about the swarm catches over on the 'Trapping' forum. Good for you.
> 
> While I am no expert, I noticed that both tree colonies I trapped out last year lived in overall volumes that were much smaller than the 'ideal' volume identified as the preference by Dr. Seeley's work.
> 
> I am in no wise suggesting that these colonies picked these voids out of many alternatives (may have been all that was available to them), but it is interesting to observe colonies that persist in cavities that are smaller than we would typically provide for them in managed settings.
> 
> Interesting video- what is the back story? Were they called in to evaluate an abandoned apiary?


In the video - the beeks were called in to just take the bees and hives away (the family of the old beek who passed did no care to take over).
There are few follow up videos about those salvaged survivor bees.
The videos have one consistent theme to them - the bees are "red hot chilly peppers".
They are so terribly hot, the new owner decided to move them to his forest yard (before the village would kick him out).
Did not watch the updates yet.

Speaking of the trap volumes, etc...
I have 4 active "log" traps this year.
If any of them are taken - leaving the bees just as-is - directly in the logs.
Two logs are like this, maybe 30L each:







Here are the other two, maybe 40-50L each:







Whatever happens.
I hope they survive and throw swarms.

Speaking of the routine, I got two good resource hives going now - each in a full long.
So if I get a hold of any decent queens later in the summer, should be able to find places for them.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> The videos have one consistent theme to them - the bees are "red hot chilly peppers".
> They are so terribly hot, the new owner decided to move them to his forest yard (before the village would kick him out).


Had a colony like this last year... they swarmed and I do not miss them. In my experience it is hard to have fun and stay relaxed when working bees that are super aggressive. That said, I can appreciate why one would want to keep them around for their genetic contribution- just keep them in the back 40 .

I do hope your log hives work out well for you and that your recent swarm additions both prove to be diamonds in the rough.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Had a colony like this last year... they swarmed and I do not miss them. In my experience it is hard to have fun and stay relaxed when working bees that are super aggressive. That said, I can appreciate why one would want to keep them around for their genetic contribution- just keep them in the back 40 .
> 
> I do hope your log hives work out well for you and that* your recent swarm additions both prove to be diamonds in the rough.*
> 
> Russ


Doubt I got any diamonds, Russ.
BUT - have to have bees before any material can be introduced.
I got some queen material lined for the summer - need to park them somewhere.
I also have a good mating yard selected for the summer - a Russian beekeeper is based nearby - hope is to get some Russian drones to be mating with my virgins. 
Should be a fun project - got about 20-30 foam shipping boxes pulled out of recycling bin - gonna by mating queens this summer from shipping boxes.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Should be a fun project - got about 20-30 foam shipping boxes pulled out of recycling bin - gonna by mating queens this summer from shipping boxes.


You are good at re-purposing stuff and visualizing new uses for things that other people miss. I've been keeping your approach in mind this year while looking to expand the apiary.


----------



## GregB

Just great:


> Report of a black bear destroying a pallet of bees.....


Supposedly a mother with a cub.
This is in the next county to us.
Darn things are moving south.
My yards would be very susceptible.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Darn things are moving south.


Black bears are expanding their range in Kentucky as well- moving West in our case...

Always something to keep one's eye on in beekeeping!


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Just great:
> 
> Supposedly a mother with a cub.
> This is in the next county to us.
> Darn things are moving south.
> My yards would be very susceptible.


yikes, bears

been done in by bears more than once.
Cost of total loss VRS the cost of an electric fencer, solar operated if necessary, and some posts.
BTW barb wire works better, thick fur is not optimal for the smooth high tencel stuff, the barbs poke thru the fur to the skin.

Was one seen a few mile from my place but alas a car hit it, I was bummed the bear got hit by a car, they are quite good on the barbie.


GG


----------



## AR1

GregV we had a black bear, presumably from Wisconsin, this far south a couple years ago. The local news had fun tracking its daily progress. Also occasional wolves and cougars.

In some ways the environment is much recovered since my youth 50 years ago. Heck, in those days it was a rare treat to see a deer! No local geese, beavers, coyotes. No eagles and even hawks were something to mention seeing. I remember seeing my first goldfinch.


----------



## GregB

I am all for the thriving local fauna.
Do enjoy the sandhill cranes walking on the residential lawns all across my suburbia (not very long ago the sandhill cranes were shot out very close to extinction too, as if pests).

Just hoping the bears stay up North as we are not prepared for their destructiveness down here South.
Yes, I know, I sound like just like one those people who would advocate for every last lab rat and suburban deer in theory BUT "not in my own backyard!"
LOL


----------



## Gray Goose

Absinthe said:


> I am dubious as to the aspect ratio having anything to do with the varoa mites. Was that suggested?


Empirical evidence for me suggests that the smaller diameter of the hive helps winters better. With the 10 frame the stack is shorter and would have less air flow (chimney height). Also noticed frame 1 and 10 are full of honey, the bees are up against the lid and starving out with honey 6 inches away. With the 8 frame I see the cluster as more of a football/egg shape, fully out to the sides. I also do 24 frames instead of 20 so there is not a reduction of total comb space/storage for stores. However the 3 box VRS the 2 box offers more honey over head, less to the sides. In the place I have the winter challenges, IF I have 11-14 inches of honey over the bees , they do fine , even have some stores for crappy spring. At some point of "coldness" the Math of the hive offers some help.
The varroa, is one of many challenges. being in touch with stores, moisture retention or escape, internal hive temps , etc several things have an impact on winter survival. I may convert a 2 box 10 frame deep to 3 box 7 frame with 1.5 frame "insulation at each side, for an experiment this winter.

tall and skinny winters better IMO , but for production it is tippy/top heavy. if a frame is 1.25 inch perhaps a 1.875 foam frame at each side would offer a different dynamic.

GG


----------



## AR1

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.21.914697v1.full.pdf+html

This one seems up your alley, GregV.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.21.914697v1.full.pdf+html
> 
> This one seems up your alley, GregV.


Thanks, AR.


----------



## GregB

Had a close call today.
By a pure accident I spotted a queen totally alone and totally outside of the hive.
She was just walking about on a rag I am using as a "inner cover".
Picked her up (marked too, while at it) and let her in.

Whew - this would be another of those cases where the beekeeper is the reason of a queen-less hive.
I still wonder how I made a hive queen-less two years ago - but I surely did.

After messy re-hiving of this heavy swarm







I simply put some torn up combs on the inner cover for the bees to clean up.
They did clean up.
But I can only guess now the queen came up *above *the inner cover to check those combs looking for free space to lay.

A squeeze by.
I like this particular swarm too and will make some nucs from them.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Wondering what other TF people think about this idea? Anyone tried it? Practical objections? Philosophical objections?


Well, you know about me and my ways and where I was and am.

I think with TF you should be ready to not only let them under.
You should be ready to actually cull some bees in controlled manner (the worst stock on the hand based on the numbers).
I am mulling this idea as the most efficient way to use resources.

Simply letting your worst bees to run down gradually is not the best way because it still consumes resources and potentially spreads the mite (worst yet to keep them artificially afloat).
It is better to quickly do them in after they have been used up (just the same as in doing in the dangerously hot bees).
Why not do in the "dangerously susceptible bees"?

With this approach you can create massive temporary bee dumps for your production needs with understanding such dump is likely to be a "mite bomb" and may need be dispatched soon after bringing you the harvest.

The susceptible bees must be terminated the sooner the better without letting them to be spreading out (which you do with artificially propping them). 

Basically, thinking infectious disease ideas (mite or virus management are really similar).
Both COVID-19 testing and mite testing are essential for knowing your numbers and, consequently, proper management.
I have not been testing before and that was one of my fall downs since I really was blind to the real situation.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Had a close call today.
> By a pure accident I spotted a queen totally alone and totally outside of the hive.
> She was just walking about on a rag I am using as a "inner cover".
> Picked her up (marked too, while at it) and let her in.
> 
> Whew - this would be another of those cases where the beekeeper is the reason of a queen-less hive.
> I still wonder how I made a hive queen-less two years ago - but I surely did.
> 
> After messy re-hiving of this heavy swarm
> View attachment 56763
> 
> I simply put some torn up combs on the inner cover for the bees to clean up.
> They did clean up.
> But I can only guess now the queen came up *above *the inner cover to check those combs looking for free space to lay.
> 
> A squeeze by.
> I like this particular swarm too and will make some nucs from them.


nice save
glad you have some swarms caught, I did bring a trap home last night, rehiving it at lunch time today.
It will be a surprise, it did seem heavy so I am hopeful it is a nice one.

seen a queen walking down the side of a hive I had open once, always need to keep an eye out.

managed to flip the excluder on one 2 years ago, next inspection the supers were full of brood....I now double check the screens and have seen the gal on the excluder?? trying to find open comb maybe.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> managed to flip the excluder on one 2 years ago, next inspection the supers were full of brood....
> GG


LOL.

A good pointer though - I want to try using excluders this season on my honey hives since the last season the queens routinely came up and filled the supers with brood (all the while there was space down under).
Will keep in mind.


----------



## Gray Goose

it was an O Shi! moment, to be sure. Fixed it easily. goes to show 40 years of experience and One can still screw up.

Excluder less would not have been an issue. I run about 1/2 and 1/2 now some with some with out.
With the brood placed over the excluder I also see lots of drones "stuck" up top, so that can also be an issue, they going south the workers going north.

GG


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> Well, you know about me and my ways and where I was and am.
> 
> I think with TF you should be ready to not only let them under.
> You should be ready to actually cull some bees in controlled manner (the worst stock on the hand based on the numbers).
> I am mulling this idea as the most efficient way to use resources.
> 
> Simply letting your worst bees to run down gradually is not the best way because it still consumes resources and potentially spreads the mite (worst yet to keep them artificially afloat).
> It is better to quickly do them in after they have been used up (just the same as in doing in the dangerously hot bees).
> Why not do in the "dangerously susceptible bees"?
> 
> With this approach you can create massive temporary bee dumps for your production needs with understanding such dump is likely to be a "mite bomb" and may need be dispatched soon after bringing you the harvest.
> 
> The susceptible bees must be terminated the sooner the better without letting them to be spreading out (which you do with artificially propping them).


Agree, badly mite-infested hives shouldn't be kept around to pollute the others. 

Depends on your goal, and, how you plan to reach it. My point isn't to prop up bad hives. It's to have resources available to strengthen a new nuc or to requeen a queenless hive. Agree that proven 'bad' bees are best off culled. 

The way I am working this year has left me with a lot of small, vulnerable colonies. That's by plan and I did it knowing the weakness of the plan. I am not thinking in retrospect that it might work better to have a fallback, a few hives kept mite-free and allowed to grow large in order to have those resources ready when some of the splits don't requeen.

If you have reasonably resistant bees to start with, you protected hives can be the same stock. My current bees seem pretty good, better than some I have had by a long way, but I doubt they would work in large, unsplit hives if left untreated. Time will tell.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> The way I am working this year has left me with a lot of small, vulnerable colonies.


So have been here before.

The way forward (IMO) to select better units (per the mite #s) and combine them back for the best possible wintering setups.

The crappier units can be also combined BUT with the goal of harvesting some crop (not wintering, unless want to treat).
Any crappy units on hand now - can be just dumped together prior to the expected flow (maybe even de-queened for better harvest) - and just cross the fingers they will pile some honey before they run out of the bees.

For myself, I need to figure out my current holdings too.
Basically, I will assume now that weak colonies will not survive for me.
Just make them as strong as possible.
If I have just 4-5 strong units set for the winter up front - then so be it.

Out of total 8 swarms I got - 5 are very strong swarms that I can see they can pile on some crop.
These 5 are clearly wintered prime swarms and I like them.
I like to try having at least 1-2 (or more) new queens made up from each of these.

Of the 5 strong swarms on hand - I for sure will try to make several queens from a known non-treated swarm (the one from a Warre hive I caught on May 12th - the owner indicated she does not treat). 
This queen filled up my 20-frame long hive and I am starting to worry to not overlook some swarm cells - must check. I will bet on this queen and will make some mating nucs and see what pans out.

The other 4 strong swarms are of unknown origins and of unknown treatment status.
Two of these are pretty black; there other two more light - all are very mild to reasonably mild.
Will try to harvest some crop and make 1-2 July splits from each (but no more).
But need to measure the mite #s before deciding the way forward.
If the #s are high - will probably just exploit them and run into the ground.
If the #s are low - will indeed try to have backup splits made up and try to winter (depending on the fall status).

The remaining 3 weak swarms - donno - one is a known "nucage" escapee.
The other 2 too look that way also (could be just nuc/package escapees) from the 2020 sales.

Don't necessarily like their ways and looks - too much of a "almond bee" type.
Depending on the mite #s I find in them - will decide.
If the #s are high - will use them as experimentation material/crop material.
I want to try again blank shook swarms as a way to build combs and such.
If the #s are low - will re-queen to potentially "better" stock (hoping they can over-winter).

So yes, this year I will try to make my decision based on the mite #s.
Don't know when it is best start to measuring the #s - probably in July sometimes.
I want to try some sugar shakes and get the general idea where I am at (don't really need the precision of alcohol shakes).


----------



## AR1

Not sure about 'running into the ground' with the inferior bees. My worry is that any hive that builds high mite numbers will spread mites and illness to neighboring hives. If I were going to keep them, I'd isolate them to a distant location. After culling drones and requeening. Don't want those drones flying around spreading genes.


----------



## GregB

This season I want to try brood-less splits/shook swarms where I can so to mitigate the horizontal mite moves.
While the brood-less splits are in disadvantage in most traditional sense, they are at advantage as they are shedding off the mites similar to regular swarms.

Did a brood-less fly-back split today of my May 12 swarm (cast from a Warre hive).
The old queen will start anew from nothing.
Have myself 16 frames of queen-less young bees and brood to slice and dice. 
No swarm C's, as I was hoping for - but maybe for the better - I don't like this line.

In the process of splitting I cut out some drone brood for personal consumption - mites are all over in it.
So I don't see these bees being "highly hygienic" as the swarm owner described; she may not be as lucky in the coming winter.
Unsure I want to bet on this particular line just by observing the drone brood.

Tomorrow will be picking up a Russian queen locally.
Will place her into a shook swarm and then we see.


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> This season I want to try brood-less splits/shook swarms where I can so to mitigate the horizontal mite moves.
> While the brood-less splits are in disadvantage in most traditional sense, they are at advantage as they are shedding off the mites similar to regular swarms.
> 
> Tomorrow will be picking up a Russian queen locally.
> Will place her into a shook swarm and then we see.


Okay, that makes sense. 

Good luck with the Russian. Where are you getting her? Wisconsin breeder? 100% Russian or crossed? Looking forward to your reports on her results.


----------



## msl

> Tomorrow will be picking up a Russian queen locally.
> Will place her into a shook swarm and then we see.


I would sujest a nuc... 
Its felt that package queens often get superseded do to the age gap in bees, don't want that to happen to good genetics you want to propagate


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> I would sujest a nuc...
> Its felt that package queens often get superseded do to the age gap in bees, don't want that to happen to good genetics you want to propagate


Already placed.
I just shook several frames of *young *bees into a box.
Added brood-less frames with all the provisions.
I feel it should be OK.

May shake in more bees later if needs be.
The source of the bees is that queen-less resource I made up yesterday.
There is a variety of the bees in it - from the pre-foragers all way down to the fresh hatchlings (and brood).


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Okay, that makes sense.
> 
> Good luck with the Russian. Where are you getting her? Wisconsin breeder? 100% Russian or crossed? Looking forward to your reports on her results.


A local breeder.
Open mated Russian/Feral cross.
Sourced from: http://wildernessbees.com/


----------



## msl

Interesting source 
I do question some of thier selection prosseses, but what ever, we take what we can get

I happend in to a F-2 off a VP Queens II breeder out crossed with Sam comforts stock a little over 2 weeks ago . I had 35 virgins from her emerge yesterday


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> May shake in more bees later if needs be.
> The source of the bees is that queen-less resource I made up yesterday.
> There is a variety of the bees in it - from the pre-foragers all way down to the fresh hatchlings (and brood).


I, btw, learned a lot from youtube sources how people transfer bees around without frames.
It is so dumb simple, people around here should use more these methods.
This example here I want to replicate this year for myself (may start watching at 5:00 and so on)
This guys does not wet his bees but instead just shoos away any flying bee; then only non-flying bee left for his projects.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3Sq8eoPAis

One can go around with a bucket with cover (or container or trash can).
Shake young bees into it as much as needed from whatever sources you choose.
Shoo the older bees out, so that you have young bee only.
These bees can be stored in a cool places for a night if needed (be sure the container is ventilated).
Or use them right away on the same yard; or use them on some other yards.
Really, really simple.

Here is how another guy keeps shook bees in his basement (for tomorrow's project).
He wets his bees because a lot of those bees are older bees and will fly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HXnbeLcVR8


----------



## gww

greg
It would seem easier just to shake a bunch of frame in the grass in front of the box you want them in. The old fly back and the young enter. I watched a video on this on you tube. I would be scared I might miss the queen though.
Cheers
gww


----------



## GregB

gww said:


> greg
> It would seem easier just to shake a bunch of frame in the grass in front of the box you want then in. The old fly back and the young enter. I watched a video on this on you tube. * I would be scared I might miss the queen though.*
> Cheers
> gww


Exactly!
You want to shake them into a white or clear container - JUST IN CASE.
Be easier to spot an accidental queen.

UNLESS you shake from a queenless hive.
Even then, some very young bees will be lost - they can not move very well at all.
So I would not dump bees in front of the hive (only the most worse-less bees maybe, which I have done).
If going this route, I made a ramp and would actually dump the bees onto the ramp, as in here:


----------



## GregB

I finally got done what I have been wanting for the last 2 years.
If course, I have been gradually collecting the scraps for it too - but there were no more excuses left to postpone.

And this thing is working like hell - I can cook in it - need to be careful when opening.
Just need to keep adding the stuff - oh yeah, baby!
I should be able to melt the entire storage of crap wax I have - today (unless I do my actual paid-for job).
Cost - $0.0 and Sunday afternoon.
Some improvement are needed per my first run so far - 10 min job for tonight.
I hope also my selection of the milk carton as a receiver was a good one - to be found out.























PS: the milk carton works well - wax separates from it (the waxed carton remains will make a great fire starter too)






.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> A local breeder.
> Open mated Russian/Feral cross.
> Sourced from: http://wildernessbees.com/


GregV:

I've enjoyed reading your updates- the Wilderness Bees line sounds like a good addition to your apiary. I was interested to see their selection criteria and noticed they spelled it out very well on their website:

http://wildernessbees.com/2017/04/22/stock-selection-criteria/

I only wish they had identified their cut-line on the alcohol washes for VSH and grooming.

Glad to read that things are building-out for you and that you got your wax melter up and running.

Russ


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> I happend in to a F-2 off a VP Queens II breeder out crossed with Sam comforts stock a little over 2 weeks ago . I had 35 virgins from her emerge yesterday


That's a good looking queen, MSL. Glad to see you wasted no time in getting some progeny from her. I'll look forward to reading about your results with this material.


----------



## msl

> I only wish they had identified their cut-line on the alcohol washes for VSH and grooming.


in the history section they say


> Hygienic Behavior – minimum of 95% removal of killed brood in 24 hours
> Varroa Resistance – varroa 5% or below: untreated.


they may have tightened it up scene the start? 
I am unsure why they would do all the work of II and not the simple task of opening 100 cells to check the non reproductive % or count bitten mites 
Sadly the site is much marketing, pushing "Wild Survivors of the Olympic Peninsula of Washington State"
mean while they brought in Glen and Harbo VSH II Breeders, VSH Semen from VP queens, and breeders from the Russian Honey Bee Breeders Association.



> That's a good looking queen, MSL. Glad to see you wasted no time in getting some progeny from her.


lol, Thats not just a good looking queen, thats a great looking VIRGIN that is only a few hours old !!


----------



## GregB

It maybe one of my swarm this season have some Russian mixed in.
All other bees are just puppies. 

But not these ones.
It is the biggest one for the 2020 that I caught.
These guys:








Now that they are built up rather nicely, I thought to pull the queen out and force some ECs.
Well, the darn things had other ideas and told me a resounding NO.
Aborted that mission and just put up two suppers and left them along to pile some honey for me.
Maybe I will let them be and send into winter as-is.
Still want to get a couple of daughters of these queen somehow; will see.
I like their energy, they are clearly hard workers
Last time I inspected they were fine with it.
Today not so much (maybe too hot for them).


----------



## GregB

So by this weekend I should have my first test batch of the queens hatched in the foam boxes.
If they mate OK, I don't even know what to do with them - this is just a practice run for me.
Maybe I sell them or something. LOL





















Meanwhile, I have a second batch in progress (the real deal) - pulled a frame of eggs from my "genetically superior" queen.
No grafting; no monkeying about - just a fresh foundation-less comb with straight eggs.

On Sunday, July 5th morning I raided the queen-less resource hive and cut out ALL of the capped QCs I found.
Immediately the better ones went to my trial run of the foam minis.
The remainder was crushed up and feed back to the bees.

On same Sunday evening I stole a frame from my "super" queen and plugged it into the queen-less resource hive.

Interestingly, until the eggs hatched - the bees did nothing to them - I began to wonder IF I missed any existing QCs in the queen-less resource hive and there will be no new queen cells originated.

But no problem - I guess the bees just don't really do anything until the eggs hatch.
I did not know, the bees wait for the larvae to hatch before they select who will be the new potential queen.


> Emergency queen cells were usually started over worker larvæ less than 2 days of age (64.7%),


https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02223608

Checked yesterday - they started forming several queen cups on the comb around the freshly hatched grubs (I counted 5 or 6; some are not clear yet) - great!
Forget that notching thing - bees easily rework the fresh wax around the larvae.
It is interesting to observe how the bee take a regular cell and make it larger and more round BEFORE they start building up the walls around it.

When the moment comes, I will cut those QCs out and attach them to the mating foam boxes; dump a couple of handfuls of bees into each - and here you go!


----------



## msl

they don't wait so much as they ignore eggs (and go for the older larva) 
your link is good but you should finish the qouate 


> but cells were built over 3 (25.3%) and 4 (10.0%) day old larvæ.


35% of the cell right off the top will be junk
but they based age on capping and outher metrics 
http://www.cyfronet.krakow.pl/~rotofils/Tofilski_Czekonska2004.pdf is likely a better look

That being said moving a frame of pure eggs (or timed larva) should give you the age control needed to approach the quality of grafted cells leaving you with a much higher percentage of good to great queens vs a walk away split.... 
interested in seeing how it turns out for you


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> they don't wait so much as they ignore eggs (and go for the older larva)
> your link is good but you should finish the qouate
> 
> 35% of the cell right off the top will be junk
> but they based age on capping and outher metrics
> http://www.cyfronet.krakow.pl/~rotofils/Tofilski_Czekonska2004.pdf is likely a better look
> 
> That being said moving a frame of pure eggs (or timed larva) should give you the age control needed to approach the quality of grafted cells leaving you with a much higher percentage of good to great queens vs a walk away split....
> interested in seeing how it turns out for you


Of course I know of the remaining 35% (1/3) - hence I posted the source so NOT to hide it. 
Basically, 2/3 of a chance they will use younger larvae to establish the future queens - pretty good.
I simply wanted some confirmation to see why the bees were ignoring the eggs while being queenless - guess they do ignore the eggs - good to know.

But I don't even have this problem by design.
It is avoided by completely bypassing the larva age issue.

I figured, controlled move of eggs (and not larvae) should take out this argument of "they will use larvae that is too old".
I simply did not give them any larvae, but eggs.
Per the link that I posted, it maybe 1/3 of a chance they may still choose some of the larvae that will be beyond 2 days old - so that is a possibility, but OK with me and not my fault. Doing best I can.

As well as the eggs are coming from completely unrelated hive - that should take out the argument of "they will use the larvae that is related to their patriline". No favored patriline to choose from.

So, however they choose the future queens - they will. 
Bees should know best and I have not a clue which of these eggs or newly hatched larvae are the best.

Really, for the backyard purposes of raising 5-10 queens, introducing a batch of eggs taken from an outside queen should work I think. 
Logistically, I'd just take a frame and cut a section of it where I see pure eggs only (ideally, the youngest eggs possible); transport to the destination; plug it in however way preferred. Of course, being foundation-less is almost a pre-requisite for this approach making it easy to manipulate the comb for both me and the bees.


----------



## msl

> Basically, 2/3 of a chance they will use younger larvae to establish the future queens - pretty good.


2 days is too old... note http://www.cyfronet.krakow.pl/~rotof...konska2004.pdf work with known age larva were its more like 3 days.

BUT 
puting in eggs you should be getting very good results(given = cell builder strength) , they have no choice but to use young larva, just like grafting. I have seen this when catching queens in minis before the eggs hatch and the cell fails/ or they refuse the virgin . Much bigger queens then if the same happens when the queen is caught and there is open brood. 
https://www.facebook.com/FRQueens/videos/278986693220923/

I think your on the right path for you! 
give this a look https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...ont-Range-Cell-Builder-a-quot-do-all-box-quot
I have had about a dozen people in the states and 4-5 in outer county's hit me up an say it working great for them 

put your breeder on a empty single comb for a few days, move it to the cellbuilder or CB side... run cells weekly for a few weeks and stock up those minis ! 
for those not foundation less put push in cages around the cells and stock the mins with virgins.



> No favored patriline to choose from.


incorrect, they can still chose patriline.. in the Tarpy studys they were choosing patrilines they were not related to.. 
but the sample size has been reduced to minimize the effect


----------



## Gray Goose

msl said:


> they don't wait so much as they ignore eggs (and go for the older larva)
> your link is good but you should finish the qouate
> 
> 35% of the cell right off the top will be junk
> but they based age on capping and outher metrics
> http://www.cyfronet.krakow.pl/~rotofils/Tofilski_Czekonska2004.pdf is likely a better look
> 
> That being said moving a frame of pure eggs (or timed larva) should give you the age control needed to approach the quality of grafted cells leaving you with a much higher percentage of good to great queens vs a walk away split....
> interested in seeing how it turns out for you


Hi MSL,
I disagree that the cells built over the 3 and 4 day larvae are junk.
As you know the difference between the "queen" and the "worker" larvae is what they are fed, How can you know the bees did not feed the 2 day larvae the right menu to make a queen and just made/start the cell on day 4. The making of the cell is not the important part the feeding of the larvae is.
The assumption of cell starting time to be "when" the bees decide to make a queen is one of those poorly done studies IMO, testing the food/jelly every day for every larvae would show better when the bees pick and may or may not be in exact timing with the cell starting. Can they start late sure , do they only if they have no other options. here they clearly have the options.

And they wait for the egg to hatch to "find" the best larvae for making a queen, as they are from different patra lines, they want to sense, smell, touch the larvae , before deciding which one makes the best queen.

Greg starting with eggs is a great way to do this as the time for the bees to realize they are queenless, passes then they can pick the larvae, with the best qualities.
Sounds like you are on the right track to me. Others may have read things and disagree. If any one has tested the jelly of the 3 and 4 day started Q cells on the day before to confirm the food was worker larvae food, please offer your observations.

please Show some pics of the queens.

neat project

GG


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> ........
> incorrect, they can still chose patriline.. in the Tarpy studys they were choosing patrilines they were not related to..
> but the sample size has been reduced to minimize the effect


Yes; OK; I may do another egg batch from the "super" queen.
Now that I got a queen-less resource going, it can still keep going for few more weeks (IF I choose so, of course).
Another potential resource hive is ready (a booming, packed nuc hive) - thinking I might plug a batch of eggs into it also.
But after that I have too many queens to handle IF this program works out.

Also want to go around and pull queens aside from most all my strong June swarms.
Just a simple old-fashion way to maximize July honey crop and try for 1-2 replacement E Queen in each swarm and a brood-break.

This I would not expect:


> incorrect, they can still chose patriline.. in the Tarpy studys they were choosing patrilines they were not related to..
> but the sample size has been reduced to minimize the effect


The whole idea I thought was to select *their own related patriline*.
Why and how would they *consistently *select some random patriline of not their own as their favorite?
Not a scientist here but am skeptical of this particular finding.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> ......
> Greg starting with eggs is a great way to do this as the time for the bees to realize they are queenless, passes then they can pick the larvae, with the best qualities.
> Sounds like you are on the right track to me. Others may have read things and disagree. If any one has tested the jelly of the 3 and 4 day started Q cells on the day before to confirm the food was worker larvae food, please offer your observations.
> 
> please Show some pics of the queens.
> 
> neat project
> 
> GG


Yes, GG, it occurred to me that simply finding and giving the queen-less resource a chunk of comb with eggs is a very much doable thing. Handily, the newly formed unit around this "super" queen built in few brand new combs into a cut-out frame. And the "super" queen appeared to just covered those brand new combs with eggs - I snatched the thing right out.

For another batch it may get more tricky to pull a frame and be 100% confident it ONLY has eggs - but, like I said, I will simply take a knife and cut one or more chunks of combs with eggs. Have few ideas how I might deploy those into the queen-less resource - I will sticky tape the darn things into the right places! (because I can, lol; life hacks with duct tape rule - I really like the painters tape in my applications).


----------



## Gray Goose

Greg

The whole idea I thought was to select their own related patriline.
Why and how would they consistently select some random patriline of not their own as their favorite?
Not a scientist here but am skeptical of this particular finding.

I have only seen some preliminary data, but it seems the Swarm cells are the current patra lines, and the Emergency cells are the older patra lines.
My only observation is if they are doing "good" they propagate "like" lines.
If they are doing not so good they pick a older/throwback line.
Could be the survival instinct has then go back in a time of things not working, and forward in times of plenty.

Really an area needing more study.

OR it could be random  depending one ones belief at the time . Alway more to learn.
Or the common line has enough genetic representation the less common line needs more?
they have shown the bees do not pick their sister to be the queen, so interesting topic.

with some extra queens you can select a few to keep or not keep, One has choice, a good thing.

GG


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Greg
> ...........
> with some extra queens you can select a few to keep or not keep, One has choice, a good thing.
> 
> GG


Yep.
At some point the analysis-paralisys gets in a way of basic backyard beekeeping. 
All the minutia around possibility of patriline selections just a small blip from the huge noise dump to shovel through.
The basic backyard beekeeping is already complicated enough now days at the locations like mine.

When I decided to give this bee project a go, I did it because it sounded as if the "set them and forget them" way was possible (Thanks Leo Sharashkin).
Well, and here I am now doing mating nucs - this is far removed from the "set them and forget them" idea.
At least I hold the line on operating from the trash can and recycling bin.

Maybe the actual idea I follow is "beekeeping from a trash can", not "set them and forget them".
"Trash can beekeeping" makes for a catchy Youtube channel. LOL


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## msl

> I disagree that the cells built over the 3 and 4 day larvae are junk.
> As you know the difference between the "queen" and the "worker" larvae is what they are fed, How can you know the bees did not feed the 2 day larvae the right menu to make a queen and just made/start the cell on day 4.


You cant put enough jelly in a worker cell to feed her well enuff a good swarm cell has 3x the volume of a worker cell
study after study show the started age matters. if you have one showing differently please share 




> The whole idea I thought was to select their own related patriline.
> Why and how would they consistently select some random patriline of not their own as their favorite?


If the cell builder is a difrent hive they are not related
but 
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00265-016-2151-x


> Colonies reared swarm and subsequently emergency queens. Genotyping of all produced queens as well as worker brood revealed a significant deviation from the expected worker subfamily distribution for emergency queens but not for swarm queens. The preference of rare subfamilies may result from worker control over queen rearing in emergency queen rearing. Based on our results it appears that workers choose a few out of a vast number of worker-destined larvae to select emergency queens at extreme selection intensity. This sets the stage for competition among larvae to compete for queen caste fate, presumably by differentially attracting nurse workers to raise them as queens. During swarm queen production, workers cannot select larvae, because the queen lays eggs into predestined cells, resulting in subfamily distributions among the queens more similar to a random subfamily sample as determined in the worker brood.


https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0199124


> During emergency queen rearing, worker honey bees (Apis mellifera) select several otherwise worker-destined larvae to instead rear as candidates to replace their dead or failing queen. This choice is crucial as the queen is the sole reproductive in the colony and her quality is essential to its success. Because honey bee queens mate with and store sperm from multiple drones, emergency queen selection presents workers with an opportunity to increase fitness by selecting full- (0.75 relatedness), rather than half- (0.25 relatedness), sisters as new queen candidates. Through patriline analysis of colonies along with large numbers of emergency queens reared by each we affirm the purported “royal” patriline theory that, instead of competing nepotistically, workers exhibit bias towards selecting individuals from particular “royal” subfamilies during emergency queen rearing events, Further, we show that these “royal” patrilines are cryptic in honey bee colonies; occurring in such low frequency in the overall colony population that they are frequently undetected in traditional tests of queen mating number and colony composition.


In nature E queens are a rarity and its not a huge benefice to be chosen, or be a drone with the trait as when the hive swarms it nullfies the advantage
under human mangmnet it may be have increased fitness, and could be on the rise... You get what you select for... more E queens means more criptic royals.. and more drones with the trait. 

the more interesting question is why these bloodlines don't show up in the hive, why do the bees feel they are inferior workers and cull them... and if they are inferior, do we realy want to make queens from them? 

The natural way of things is a random egg in a queen cup, for best results folow natures lead and work with her.



> When I decided to give this bee project a go, I did it because it sounded as if the "set them and forget them" way was possible (Thanks Leo Sharashkin).
> Well, and here I am now doing mating nucs - this is far removed from the "set them and forget them" idea.


Same here(thanks Michael bush) top bars and lazy beekeeping, just let them bee and a small taste of honey for me 
worked (sort of) for a few years till there was a new beekeeper making mite bombs on every block.. 

now I am running 10f deep supers 4 high over 5x5 nucs canadian style (paul Kelly, Ian, etc) a far cry from the 15lb a hive I got from my $30 KTBHs

and now this showed up last week







:ws:
down the rabbit hole I guess... but the queens I sold this year payed for it, and a trip to ASU this fall to get training 
Its a fun "tale of 2 beekeepers" given we went it to winter with more or less the same numbers (19/21)

I love readying your journey and watch you grow as a beekeeper (tho you may see it as compromising) and I think you on the right track with a cell builder...
keep an eye on your flow... those minis can go from mating nuc to open feeder in a blink!

I am off to graft from my VP/AA VSH, I need a few bars for my class on 48hr cells Sunday. 
I can't shift my local DCAs with "lazy beekeeping", I need to be able to hand out genetics like candy on Halloween.(that and being out of work form covid may have something to do with it) 
Different methods, similar goals...


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> ...
> Its a fun "tale of 2 beekeepers" given we went it to winter with more or less the same numbers (19/21)
> 
> I love readying your journey and watch you grow as a beekeeper (tho you may see it as compromising) and I think you on the right track with a cell builder...
> keep an eye on your flow... those minis can go from mating nuc to open feeder in a blink!
> 
> I am off to graft from my VP/AA VSH, I need a few bars for my class on 48hr cells Sunday.
> I can't shift my local DCAs with "lazy beekeeping", I need to be able to hand out genetics like candy on Halloween.(that and being out of work form covid may have something to do with it)
> Different methods, similar goals...


Well, fell free to share the "tale of 2 beekeepers" in your classes if want.
I am being public about it anyway.
LOL - as if one needs a permission... 

Here is one question I could use help - when should I start doing the mite counts so to reliably sort my current collection into "go" and "no-go" units? 
I was locally suggested to count in late July (into early August I suppose).
Also I assume repeat counts will be needed X weeks later - what is a good strategy there?

This year will be the first year for me to count so have the better picture of the apiary status.
In theory, the counts may indicate 1)the worthiness of the bee and 2)impact of the management methods (brood breaks, etc) and 3)the great unknown. At least I should know which bees are to die rather soon.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> You cant put enough jelly in a worker cell to feed her well enuff *a good swarm cell has 3x the volume of a worker cell*.....


I will, btw, make a note - this is not really a simple call.
Just now as I observe my current queen batch, I find this is very remarkable how the bees convert worker cells into queen cups.
Given the pliability of fresh comb with NO embedded cocoons yet - they easily and quickly enlarge the selected cells from get-go.
It is a shame I failed to take pictures a couple of days ago; today it will be too late, but I will check.

In short - they do NOT use a worker cell to raise a queen.
They in fact completely rebuild the selected worker cell into a queen cell directly in place and entirely - much bigger in diameter and completely round (they change the hex shape to round; no worker cell left to speak of) -- there is plenty of volume for food in a rebuilt cell.

But also remarkable - while some of the reworked worker cell became much, much larger obviously; the other reworked cells became only marginally larger - this is how two days ago I did not know how many exactly queen cups were they building. 
Some of the proposed queen cells were not very obvious two days ago.
I almost wish I somehow marked them all with different markers (don't know how to mark the specific cells).

So now IF the ECs are created on old comb with embedded cocoons, that may be a factor in the EC quality.
I will propose that ECs created on the newest combs possible will be best (easier and faster to rebuild a worker cell into an oversized Q cell --> more space for food)


----------



## Gray Goose

MSL
re:You cant put enough jelly in a worker cell to feed her well enuff a good swarm cell has 3x the volume of a worker cell
study after study show the started age matters. if you have one showing differently please share.

Yes of course it is not big enough.
Oddly they do not move larvae.
So They float it out of the cell on a pool of RJ and create the wax cell part outside the comb.
MY comment is they "could" add jelly on day 2, 3 and 4 , then create the cell on the comb face day 4.5 to day 6.
the only requirement is the larvae be fed like a queen for its entire life.
It would be possible for the cell to be built on day 4 but the larvae feed like a queen from day 1.
My only point was "watching" for the cell build, may or may not be accurate to indicate when the bees started the larvae to being a queen.
this depends also, on population, race and time of the year.
As you tend to graft no issue for your process, you would likely not use a worker fed too old larvae.

GG


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## GregB

MSL/GG:

Here is what I observed - this is the cell transformation that takes place when a worker larva was selected to become queen larva.
The cell transformation takes place BEFORE the queen cup becomes pronounced above the comb.

The size change in this drawing is deliberate - this is what I saw.








So, I don't see the talk of worker cell being too small for a queen being substantiated.
They start with fundamentally rebuilding the cell from the bottom up and making it bigger.

But as I noted - some cells become much, much bigger (as I pictured) the other cells are only marginally bigger.
It may also be that some cells progressed more than the others - meaning that the eggs maybe of slightly different age OR they selected the eggs at different times.

Next time I will make a point of taking actual photos.


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## clyderoad

The previous three posts show that possessing the fine skills of observation is a powerful tool that can lead one to a deeper understanding than simply relying blindly on the written accounts of others.


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## msl

> So, I don't see the talk of worker cell being too small for a queen being substantiated.
> They start with fundamentally rebuilding the cell from the bottom up and making it bigger


no were am I saying they can't form fresh wax in to a suitably sized cup, or flood out the larva on old comb, just that you cant properly feed queen larvae in a unmodified worker cell as GG sujests 



> MY comment is they "could" add jelly on day 2, 3 and 4 , then create the cell on the comb face day 4.5 to day 6.
> the only requirement is the larvae be fed like a queen for its entire life.
> It would be possible for the cell to be built on day 4 but the larvae feed like a queen from day 1.


My understanding for the reason for 48 hour cells being almost full of jelly is when the larva gets bigger its eating faster then they feed it. cells are capped on day5, making 12 hours to draw, fill and cap a cell large achievement This make your suggestion unlikely, more so given in all the E-cells studys its not been documented.



> Well, fell free to share the "tale of 2 beekeepers" in your classes if want


wan't meant as an insult, in rereading it I can see how it could be taken wrong. unintended that way


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## GregB

GregV said:


> MSL/GG:
> 
> Here is what I observed - this is the cell transformation that takes place when a worker larva was selected to become queen larva.
> The cell transformation takes place BEFORE the queen cup becomes pronounced above the comb.
> 
> The size change in this drawing is deliberate - this is what I saw.
> View attachment 57219
> 
> ...........
> Next time I will make a point of taking actual photos.


Got pics.
For some reason about 10 QCs are progressing nicely (pic).







But they either left behind some of the cells mid-progress OR still started new ones (pics).
One can see how the worker cells have been transformed (I actually so even bigger than these - now turned into QCs).















So, IF the final natural QCs are selected and moved into mating nucs and properly mated/tested - good queen selection can be done from entirely natural QCs. Of course, if everything left to the bees - the winner of these 10 QCs I have in progress will be random.
I prefer the mating nuc route.


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## AR1

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982219306736
A Maternal Effect on Queen Production in Honeybees

Eggs laid in queen cells are larger than eggs laid in worker cells, and queens produced from those queen cell eggs are larger and have more egg-laying potential. According to this study...


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## GregB

AR1 said:


> https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982219306736
> A Maternal Effect on Queen Production in Honeybees
> *
> Eggs laid in queen cells are larger than eggs laid in worker cells*, and queens produced from those queen cell eggs are larger and have more egg-laying potential. According to this study...


Wow.
Now this.
More evidence that true swarm cells are the best.


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## crofter

According to some sources, if a queen is restricted on how much she can lay, egg size will increase. I think we should give the previous conclusions some further examination to see if the results are repeatable before we accept the idea that queens deliberately or incidentally lay larger eggs predominately in purpose built queen cells. 

Swarm cells are laid when hive conditions are rolling in resources but after watching just one example of how Ian Stettler jam packs his breeders with bees and resources (very similar to Michael Palmer and other queen breeders) I think they exceed the bounty of normal average swarm hive conditions. Bernard Huevel also describes a similar scenario of achieving very high queen body weights.

We can easily be convinced of something if it is what supports our preconceive conviction.


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## GregB

crofter said:


> According to some sources, if a queen is restricted on how much she can lay, egg size will increase. I think we should give the previous conclusions some further examination to see if the results are repeatable *before we accept the idea that queens deliberately or incidentally lay larger eggs predominately in purpose built queen cells.*
> 
> Swarm cells are laid when hive conditions are rolling in resources but after watching just one example of how Ian Stettler jam packs his breeders with bees and resources (very similar to Michael Palmer and other queen breeders) I think they exceed the bounty of normal average swarm hive conditions. Bernard Huevel also describes a similar scenario of achieving very high queen body weights.
> 
> We can easily be convinced of something if it is what supports our preconceive conviction.


*Larger* eggs laid into the predetermined QC (if true) does not contradict the benefits of the large resources producing better queens. 

In fact, measuring the eggs in size/weight, given the present technologies - a very doable exercise to do, if you have the technology handy. I would think the paper about the egg sizing can be independently confirmed (if anyone cares to confirm).

But again, what I do I care? 
I do care about the quick and dirty backyard-scale methods that will work for me.


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## crofter

"But again, what I do I care?
I do care about the quick and dirty backyard-scale methods that will work for me."

Mind over matter! If you dont mind, it doesn't matter! 

As I suggested on another post the Nth degree of excellence would be wasted on most dabblers management systems or record keeping.

This is far from the first time the the question has arisen about whether there is any value given away by skilled grafting under good conditions compared to the results of swarm cells. My thought is that if there was clearly benefit one way or the other it would already have been established. 

Matters of custom and convenience usually set the agenda.


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## msl

Egg size from caging, also shows the need for a large cup to feed the larva properly 

https://www.researchgate.net/public...aring_Young_Honey_Bee_Queens_Apis_mellifera_L


> Effect of mother queen caged days on weight, length and width of laid eggs As shown in Tab. 3, an increase in the number of days that the mother queen was caged was associated with a signicant increase in the weight and dimensions of the laid eggs (P<0.05).Effect of mother queen caging days on birth weight, ovaries and thorax length and width of reared queenAs shown in Tab. 4, birth weight, ovarian tubes number and thorax length and width all sig-nicantly increased for the greater duration of mother queen caging (P<0.05).Effect of mother queen caging days on Vg gene expression level in reared queen’s ovarian tissues As shown in Fig. 3, increasing the number of mother queen-caging days led to an increase in the Vg expression level in reared queen ovarian tissues


same goupe as AR's link
and this one
https://www.researchgate.net/public...thod_of_Queen_Rearing_without_Grafting_Larvae

seems like it all about either improving there graft less system or proveing its better then outhers on the market :shhhh:



> My thought is that if there was clearly benefit one way or the other it would already have been established.


Tarpy suggests they are even
but it relay matters very little as its a inpratical way... except maby using the swarm keeper I mentioned earlier

side bar- I figged out WHY thier use is seen in Poland in commercial yards, but doesn't seem to be used much or at all in other country's!!


> Poland is unique in that instrumentally inseminated queens, IIQs, are commonly used in production hives


https://www.researchgate.net/public...tinely_used_in_commercial_production_colonies
wow, just wow.... II production queens!!!

To the "what end?"
knowing how and why something works alows you to make management choices 
knowledge like this has let Greg adjust his methods to aline better with his goales, and his set up has all the hallmarks of a good queen rearing program( that, yes I harp on maby too much )

mini nucs so he can make more then he needs and be selective -check
controlling larva age -check
ability to make needed number of cells form the "best" queen instead of the "rest"-check 
large cup size-? likely "good enuff" do to the fresh wax used 
bringing in improved genetics as a jump start if you don't have a large pool to select form-check 

honesty the only thing I would add would be a way to confine the breeder queen to a single comb so he can create a timed comb on demand that's ready when its convenient for him. 

he is now miles ahead of pull the queen, let them draw cells, bust up in to nucs

It will be interesting to see what impact it has on his operation.


----------



## GregB

I have to say I am liking working these little foam minis.
Hopefully, they produce.
But the ease of work and cost effectiveness and micro-climate control are great.
I like my free-standing frames better than free-handing frames, btw. Was a good decision.








Got two virgins hatched and one last mini is still sitting on 2 QCs (slightly concerned, but maybe they are younger).
Also lost one virgin - both QCs hatched in one of the minis and I found one of them killed.
But that was basically assumed as I plugged two QCs into it (too many QCs were to play with - this is my test run).








Just today I made an ah-hoc split from a captured swarm of some Russian origins.
Meant to separate the queen - no luck finding her.
So I just slapped together a *nominally* queen-less nuc hoping to force some ECs the old fashioned way.
NOT ideal, but - I got few minis standing by - a great option to have.
Will pull as many ECs into the minis that I can and try to mate them all and see what pans out - there should be options to consolidate back later. 
This same idea is harder to do with the full-size nucs as those need more bees per the unit just to control the micro-climate.

(Love it or hate it - pretty sure I did catch some Russian mix on my own - this is in addition to a purchased Russian mix queen.
Today I went to work them again with a determined mind knowing what to expect and was ready - meant to make a queen-right split.
Did not work out too well as I exceeded my time quota.
They have their patience run out at about 15 minute mark - after that must smoke non-stop and the work becomes difficult.
Runny bastards too.
Amazing I was able find and mark the queen two visits back - they were still agreeable.
Today I pretty much gave up looking for her.
Oh well, if they survive the winter, they are worth it.)


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## AR1

GregV sounds like you are having fun. Hope the Russian proves out. Winter is the test.

I am thinking of making up some smaller nucs this winter to try next year. Last winter I made all 5-frame deep nucs, I made a bunch of those and they are proving very handy, but 4-frames would fit better paired on top of my full-sized equipment, and if I want the young hives quickly packed with bees I might go down to a few three frames. Paired 4-frame nucs would fit under my current telescoping covers, which would be nice.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> GregV sounds like you are having fun. Hope the Russian proves out. Winter is the test.
> 
> I am thinking of making up some smaller nucs this winter to try next year. Last winter I made all 5-frame deep nucs, I made a bunch of those and they are proving very handy, but 4-frames would fit better paired on top of my full-sized equipment, and if I want the young hives quickly packed with bees I might go down to a few three frames. Paired 4-frame nucs would fit under my current telescoping covers, which would be nice.


Fun it is.
In a couple of days here I need to put away about 10 QCs generated from my purchased Q.
It was a very good thing I did a practice run to just get the idea how to work this mini-mating project.
I will continue these test queens all way through so that I know what is coming for the subsequent the production batch.

I think Monday or Tuesday I will be shaking more bees into another batch of the minis as the production QC move calendar is coming up. Unsure if I want to run another production run - will see - I just don't need that many. I suppose I could try to sell off excess queens.

Got plenty of foam boxes still; but the frame supply is short. 
I need more mini frames made up!


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## AR1

Are those home-made mini frames? Your design or something you found? 

What the heck do you plan to do with all those queens?  A good problem to have.


----------



## AR1

The bought mother is mixed Russian/something, correct? Be interesting to see what the next generation looks like.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Are those home-made mini frames? Your design or something you found?
> 
> What the heck do you plan to do with all those queens?  A good problem to have.


Yes - home-made frames - entirely my own design.
I have this idea of free standing frame (vs. free hanging frame).
Also wanting to test a full-size free standing frame (different project).

Since I have about 20 standard foam boxes (seems to be some standard shipping container thing), I figured the dimensions and made a batch of frames. Really need to make another batch. The frames are the limiting factor; about half the boxes are still empty.

Yes - the queen problem.
Pretty soon I will redirect all my trap fleet (ten 6/7-frame traps) into the nuc business.
There I will run these queens on 2 full-size frames in testing (gonna have to bust up a couple of resource hives into the nucs).
I think sometimes in August I should have pretty good idea which of the nucs I will want to continue on.
The "bad" nucs I will combine into the "good" nucs (if the mite counts will allow).
The "bad" queens might go for cheap sale as not needed excess material (or into alcohol jar).
You could drive up and get some material for nothing (if I have too much).
Will see how that pans out.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> The bought mother is mixed Russian/something, correct? Be interesting to see what the next generation looks like.


It is Russian/feral origin - open mated on the sellers yard.
Yes - interesting and really a cat in a bag, to be honest.

Hence I am also trying to pull off some queens from my own newly captured "Russian" (or whatever that moody darn thing is).
After working the backyard puppies in shorts, these feisty bugs make me sweat.
In few weeks here we'll estimate the mite #s and see what is really what.


----------



## msl

> I like my free-standing frames better than free-handing frames, btw. Was a good decision.





> The frames are the limiting factor; about half the boxes are still empty..


for your scavenger consideration, lots of political signs to be had shortly 
http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/files/articles/American_Bee_Journal/ABJ2010-07.pdf


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> for your scavenger consideration, lots of political signs to be had shortly
> http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/files/articles/American_Bee_Journal/ABJ2010-07.pdf


Sure.
I especially like the metal wire they use for those signs. Perfect for me.

Will post into horizontal hive area the latest hack I did just today - ad-hoc deep frames using standard Lang mediums - a steel wire and 3 zip-ties - frame is done.
I don't have time or patience for those deep frames anymore, but yet I need more deep frames for my deep hives.
The ad-hoc half-frames still in rotation give me some grief (very similar to TBH issues).


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> Since I have about 20 standard foam boxes (seems to be some standard shipping container thing), I figured the dimensions and made a batch of frames.
> 
> 
> You could drive up and get some material for nothing (if I have too much).
> Will see how that pans out.


I have heard that Langstroth hives are based on a peach crate he had handy.

This summer is busy. Work, and I am in school all summer. Lots of annoying homework and no vacation time from work. I am 59 years old and not happy to still be a student and turning in papers. Requirement for my job... I won't have time free until mid fall to think about even short trips. Next spring I will certainly take you up on any miracle survivor queen stock you might have!


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> I have heard that Langstroth hives are based on a peach crate he had handy.
> 
> This summer is busy. Work, and I am in school all summer. Lots of annoying homework and no vacation time from work. I am 59 years old and not happy to still be a student and turning in papers. Requirement for my job... I won't have time free until mid fall to think about even short trips. Next spring I will certainly take you up on any miracle survivor queen stock you might have!


Man, I can not even think of going back to school at my age (still only early 50s!).
I think I have done my time after finishing the grad program while working - whew - too much college as it is.

Yes, those peach shipping crates called Lang hives.
Still hoping to build a prototype compact hive in 2020 yet.


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> Man, I can not even think of going back to school at my age (still only early 50s!).
> I think I have done my time after finishing the grad program while working - whew - too much college as it is.
> 
> Yes, those peach shipping crates called Lang hives.
> Still hoping to build a prototype compact hive in 2020 yet.


I have no mental enthusiasm for my classes, even those which are superficially interesting. It's for a BSN, nursing, which I agreed to get when I was hired. And that is the basic qualification in nursing these days, whereas in the past the 2-year degree (after 2 years of pre-reqs) was the norm. With my experience I am probably employable without it, but it does look nice on a resume. Unfortunately I am done with the science classes and am now finishing up with the feel-good classes, global nursing, nursing leadership, and related psycho-crap. I grit my teeth and forge on, escaping to Beesource and sci-fi novels to remain sane.

Double-stacked lang nucs seem to be working well for me. Wonderfully easy to do splits and manipulations, easy to expand into larger boxes. I am happy with my decision last winter to concentrate on building nucs. But now find myself short of 10-frame boxes to accommodate expansion. Next winter will probably be assembling frames and making 10-frame boxes...


----------



## GregB

Well, darn!
Scotty we have a problem!

Pretty sure my production mating run is a failure.
The Miller style QC comb worked out nicely and I distributed the cells over the 6 mating nucs.

BUT - pretty sure these queens are toast.
ALL of the mites from the entire queen-less and now brood-less hive gathered on this single comb and infested it terribly.
Virtually every brood cell has a mite, or 2-3 of them.
A terrible mess.
Surely, the queen cells are no different and have mites in them too and thus these queens are damaged goods now.








I completed the batch setup tonight anyway but am ready to write it off as a total loss.

Need to regroup.

The resource hive needs to be queen-less but still needs to have brood in it.
Plugging the eggs into brood-less and untreated resource is pretty much doomed, I think.
These larva will attract the mites since no other alternative left for the mites.
At least this is what I got.


----------



## gww

Greg
The mad splitter says that what happened to you is a good thing. His position is that the mites will load up in the first cells laid and it will kill the mites and the larva and the bees will clean it out really fast leaving a more mite free hive. Maybe you should let it ride a little longer and see what happens. I don't know but it might turn out better than you think and might be interesting to see.

My self only speaking and mites aside your second round may be better with the same bees and only ten or so days away if you have more eggs and young larva to give it. Me being me, I would probably see how the queens came out anyway. It would really be neat to watch the queens hatch in an incubator or something so you could look them over. It would be kinda neat to cut into one and look but then you would only have five.

Either way, good luck. 
Cheers
gww


----------



## GregB

gww said:


> Greg
> The mad splitter says that what happened to you is a good thing. His position is that the mites will load up in the first cells laid and it will kill the mites and the larva and the bees will clean it out really fast leaving a more mite free hive. Maybe you should let it ride a little longer and see what happens. I don't know but it might turn out better than you think and might be interesting to see.
> 
> My self only speaking and mites aside your second round may be better with the same bees and only ten or so days away if you have more eggs and young larva to give it. Me being me, I would probably see how the queens came out anyway. It would really be neat to watch the queens hatch in an incubator or something so you could look them over. It would be kinda neat to cut into one and look but then you would only have five.
> 
> Either way, good luck.
> Cheers
> gww


I will let the queens hatch which should be in a week.
Just anticipate most of them will be dead by then or they will be crippled.
Hard to see any decent queens after mite damage to them.

Trying to decide should I
1) reload this exact queen-less/brood-less resource with another batch of eggs (I removed most all the infested brood) OR
2) make me a new queen-less resource (with brood) and run the batch of eggs there (mites should not concentrate as much on the introduced larva for my QCs).


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> I will let the queens hatch which should be in a week.
> Just anticipate most of them will be dead by then or they will be crippled.
> Hard to see any decent queens after mite damage to them.
> 
> Trying to decide should I
> 1) reload this exact queen-less/brood-less resource with another batch of eggs (I removed most all the infested brood) OR
> 2) make me a new queen-less resource (with brood) and run the batch of eggs there (mites should not concentrate as much on the introduced larva for my QCs).



But wait, there is hope!


> Varroa mites do avoid queen cells, apparently due to some chemical odor from royal jelly.


https://bee-health.extension.org/varroa-mite-reproductive-biology/


> Varroa mites do not reproduce within queen cells because of the repellency of royal jelly and the very short post-capping period of queens (7 days).


https://extension.psu.edu/methods-to-control-varroa-mites-an-integrated-pest-management-approach


----------



## AR1

The first brood capped after a broodless period is always going to have high mites. I think GWW is right.

You may be pleasantly surprised with the queens.


----------



## GregB

gww said:


> Greg
> The mad splitter says that what happened to you is a good thing. His position is that the mites will load up in the first cells laid and it will kill the mites.............
> gww


Right, I was aware of this in theory.
But it never clicked with me in practice, UNTIL I saw it in front of my own eyes.

I still mean to translate for a general reading a chapter from the Petrov, 1978 where he talks of this exact method of mite management from back then yet.
Brood-less splitting and then monitoring/culling the very first frame of capped brood as a mite control tool.
Chem-free and a routine part of general apiary management.
It was documented about 40+ years ago now and it worked for them nicely back then.
No one remembers today (but I got the book!).


----------



## msl

Not forgotten, just not trendy I have posted about it several times
Randy Oliver suggests it has a knock down of 75%... 2 mounths later the hive will have 4x less mites then no action. 
but, with such a strong effect you fall in the same pit falls as treatments, propping up poor genetics. 
https://youtu.be/IX3Tz5_uaMc?t=2607 

I have wondered for a while about an entrance reducer to funnel in to the 2 QE pannels so that you can set the cell and walk off, forcing the new queen to one fame when she starts to lay


down the road you should note if that brood dies and takes the mite with it as MDA sujests


----------



## GregB

Totally so - these mite management methods are congruent with the treatments (poor genetics prop-up).

But, as you know, to be able to replace the genetics, need to have the temporary resources (which need to be kept alive somehow).
Thanks to my fruitful swarm hunting this season, I got the resources.
Got lucky but could go the other way too.

At least the chem-free methods are in line with my "clean food" policy - I don't need to worry of that variable.
I can harvest anything, anytime, from anywhere in my hives and have no second thoughts. 
My stuff is as clean as it can possibly be within my control.

What is different in the Petrov, 1978 - these brood-less splitting methods have been developed into annual standard beekeeping practices and don't effect much the general productivity. The only varroa-specific part in them - monitoring the so-called "indicator frame" (the very first frame of brood capped after the brood-less split) and optionally culling it based on the mite infestation level.
Later, they modified this "indicator frame" to be "drone brood indicator frame" - it was a better tool for the reasons we know.

The "indicator frame" is usually implemented by making a brood-less split and letting them keep only ONE frame of open brood/eggs.
This is the frame to be first one capped after the brood-less splitting and it will contain ALL the mites present in the colony.
A perceived draw-back is the loss of this worker brood - but, actually, this worker brood could be so badly compromised that it should not be considered loss, but rather good riddance.

The "drone brood indicator frame" is implemented by taking ALL brood away and providing them with brood comb/foundation/empty frame so that drone larva is available as quickly as possible (and handled as above).


----------



## BigBlackBirds

gww said:


> Greg
> The mad splitter says that what happened to you is a good thing. His position is that the mites will load up in the first cells laid and it will kill the mites and the larva and the bees will clean it out really fast leaving a more mite free hive. Maybe you should let it ride a little longer and see what happens. I don't know but it might turn out better than you think and might be interesting to see.
> 
> My self only speaking and mites aside your second round may be better with the same bees and only ten or so days away if you have more eggs and young larva to give it. Me being me, I would probably see how the queens came out anyway. It would really be neat to watch the queens hatch in an incubator or something so you could look them over. It would be kinda neat to cut into one and look but then you would only have five.
> 
> Either way, good luck.
> Cheers
> gww



the first round of brood tends to have high mite load of course but what happens next really is a function of bee population/age both relative to mite population and then how those specific bees react. sometime there is a mite reduction. sometimes there is not


----------



## GregB

Having thunderstorms starting last night and through the day.
The foam nucs pinned down by ceramic floor tiles are solid and have not been blown away.


























I picked this E-Z nuc for free this spring and am really happy with the scrounge.
I caught swarms into it.
Transported bees in it. 
Stored bees in it.
Now I use it as a bee-shake box.
Excellent all-way-around tool. Robust too.
I want more of these! For free of course.
Highly recommend having few of these around.








So, started 4 more foam nucs.
Also split up a queen-less 6-frame nuc into two units and inserted QCs into each.
Also left a QC in the resource hive itself - I feel two rounds of cells taken from it is enough for me.
They deserve to return to normal life and, hopefully, still prepare for the winter on their own.

If all succeed - that should amount to 7 queens made from the purchased "Russian".
Still have a batch of ECs in progress from the "Russian" swarm however many that may end up to be.
Should be more than enough for some re-queening and some start-ups.

If only the claim of the QCs to be mite-proof will hold.
Fingers crossed it is true.

Out of mini-frames for now - must make more frames so to have more ready stand-by minis.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> But they either left behind some of the cells mid-progress OR still started new ones (pics).
> One can see how the worker cells have been transformed (I actually so even bigger than these - now turned into QCs).
> View attachment 57229
> 
> View attachment 57231


These pictured expanded cells on the pics were ultimately capped as drone brood (marked by arrows).
Interesting!

So on the same exact worker brood comb, the bees selected few "special" eggs and reworked the wax around them (made the cells bigger).
Some reworked cell turned into QCs.
Other reworked cells turned into drone cells.
No wonder I commented above why some of the reworked cells were running behind from the others in progress (as if the eggs were of different age). Well, those "running behind" eggs turned to be male eggs. Maybe it takes some time for the bees to read the eggs for what they are.


----------



## GregB

Today I had plans to do this on two swarms caught back in early June.


> Split.
> Then combine back later.
> 
> This double-brood break deserves a look as a tool of keeping alive non-resistant bees.
> Now being mid-July, I am planning to pull the queens aside from the biggest swarms on hand and make asymmetric no-brood splits.
> Benefits:
> 1)keeping the originals as strong as possible and have them work on the crop while queen-less (making the splits even give you neither here nor there);
> 2)the pulled-aside queen contingent will receive a short-brood break and will have a smaller fraction of the mite population - some mite slow-down; important detail - this contingent will be of the shook young bees and needs support (feeding/food frames and some ready pre-drawn frames) to continue the brood generation
> 3)the original queen keeps working and so, effectively, the population production does not stop for the original hive (it is just done outside of it)
> 4)when the original hive approaches to the self-requeening point after the proper brood-break - optionally plug in a different queen
> 5)later in the season - recombine back the newly re-queened original hive and the split with the old queen (however you handle the old queen - up to you - but ideally the new queen should take over)
> 6)effectively you had your brood-break AND still have some crop for bees/yourself AND kept the # of the hives stable


One of them started perfectly working through this experiment.
The queen-less unit should be a perfect home for one of my own mated queens soon here. Hopefully they will bring some crop still.
The throw-away, old queen can do as much work to do as she can - several empty combs and enough of the workforce dumped in to accompany her.

Perfect timing too as I saw some swarming preparations in place (instead of working on filling the super with the honey - they chose to swarm - not great).

The other swarm busted all my plans.
These fools swarmed away on me already (instead of working on filling the honey super - still empty).
What useless bees - pretty sure some package source again.
This silly queen will get replaced by one of my own mates too. 

Fortunately, I am very, very sure they just landed into my own trap a couple of miles away (making it 7/8 in the trapping department for me).
Unfortunately, bye-bye honey crop from this idiots.
I ended up pulling about 15 very ripe QCs across 5 mating units.
Also caught a piping virgin too as she was walking around the hive looking for her sisters (one of them was piping back from her QC).
Gonna have to combine back all this mess into a couple hives after the mating results will be clear.














Overall, I had correct gut feeling about terminating these two swarm queens.
They are some kind of southern bees behaving in strange ways here (swarming mid-summer instead of packing honey).


----------



## msl

> They are some kind of southern bees behaving in strange ways here (swarming mid-summer instead of packing honey).





> What useless bees - pretty sure some package source again.
> This silly queen will get replaced by one of my own mates.


perhaps....
but that kind of behavior is more of a calling card of local feral survivors then southern packages... its hard to get hive to build up to production size and be usefull if they are swarmy


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> perhaps....
> but that kind of behavior is more of a calling card of local feral survivors then southern packages... its hard to get hive to build up to production size and be usefull if they are swarmy


These southern packages are just not getting our local summer - how it works, when is the time to swarm, and how much time they have to do things.
Pretty much they are happy to swarm twice per our summer - not great up here.
I just had two cases today - one I intercepted; the other case - they flew away virtually before I showed up (only to land into my own trap - but I took home now useless honey frames). 

What a loss was my hopeful breeder last summer - she did know to pack the honey when it was coming (not be swarming).


----------



## msl

> These southern packages are just not getting our local summer - how it works, when is the time to swarm, and how much time they have to do things.
> Pretty much they are happy to swarm twice per our summer - not great up here.


that's just not how commercial stocks perform, no one makes money off hives that swarm 2x a year 

my take is either your swarm management is off, or you have had a brush with the "real deal" and your discounting them when you should be investigating them


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> that's just not how commercial stocks perform, no one makes money off hives that swarm 2x a year
> 
> my take is either your swarm management is off, or you have had a brush with the "real deal" and your discounting them when you should be investigating them


Well, they make money selling these bees, LOL.
Suburban beekeeper wanna-bes in my area - that's a lot of money to be had.
Who cares of the performance. 
The real "performance" of the bees for sale is quick propagation and multiplication - so to sell more of these (OR to have more for the pollination business). That's is a very fine performance, btw - just tuned up for the bee seller side and pollinator business side.

This is mid-July here - flow time, and yet people are indeed struggling with keeping the swarms contained (swarm after swarm are posted). Of course, I am done chasing myself - different priorities. Now I am loosing swarms myself (just after recently capturing them). 

What normal recent swarm is swarming again just after filling three medium boxes and ignoring empty supers above?
These are not normal bees for my area.
These "real deal" bees, MSL, are nothing other than package bees resold after the almonds.

But anyhow, I am glad - these incidents make it easier for me to choose which lines to terminate and which to continue with.
Of course, pending mite counting will make the choices even more easier.

BTW, yesterday inspected my purchased "Russian" - not impressed.
Of course she is a keeper from the stand point of a promised genetic line.
But from a general laying stand-point of a young queen, just a so-so layer so far (may still improve, I hope).


----------



## crofter

A lot of whether or not they swarm is up to the beekeeper. I pinched a few cells on several occasions on a colony that has given me three mediums of honey and probably will provide two more. That will be a best ever for me. Probably not the best genetics for someone who wants the bees to self manage hands off.

This is my first season with single deep brood configuration but I have never felt I could leave bees to their own devices even with doubles. My previous strategy was to do a Snelgrove double screen board temporary divide on them and I then I could be fairly confident of no swarms.

Just guessing but I have the feeling that bees that were virtually swarm proof would have other drawbacks not many people would choose.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV:

I enjoyed getting caught-up with your thread. Sounds like you have had a busy and interesting Summer.

I considered weighing-in on the discussion about genetics, swarminess and the like but quickly realized that I don't know anything and my comments would likely not contribute anything meaningful.

That said, I do sincerely hope that you find that more than a few of the things you are working with this Summer pan-out and get you well-positioned for building a foundation for your TF efforts.

I'll look forward to reading how things unfold for you.

Russ


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Varroa mites do avoid queen cells, apparently due to some chemical odor from royal jelly.
Click to expand...

Well, today I found a wingless queen in one of my mating nucs.
Looks like a classic shriveled wing case.
Could not take a pic; hopefully she is still there next time and I will.

So much for the mites avoiding queen cells (some cells got chewed by the bees; other cells never hatched - I should look inside).
Overall, this batch turned pretty sour; in part due to the mites I believe.
Only three cells properly hatched but I did not see those queens yet, if they are normal or not.

Donno if again the "scientific" papers just keep copying each other without anyone really testing the idea to be true.


----------



## msl

When did you move them? there are times the pupa's wings are very sensitive to any movement of the cells


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> When did you move them? there are times the pupa's wings are very sensitive to any movement of the cells


I have been following LJ's:


> If moving queen cell, best between days 11 and 13 inclusive.


LJ says:


> days 14-16 if chilled or shaken wings may be damaged.


The wings definitely just not grown, consistently with DWV (vs. damaged).
Will try to find her and picture; left back in the nuc.


----------



## msl

but you not controaling the age of the egg, so the frame you moved could have 1-2-3 day old eggs so that when some were safe to move/cut out others weren't
this is why my preference is to push in cages on natural cells, give you a change to inspect the virgin as well before committing resources 




> Donno if again the "scientific" papers just keep copying each other without anyone really testing the idea to be true.


NO, you just likely have an abnormal high load



> Infestation of queen cells of the honey bee (Apis mellifera macedonica) by the mite Varroa jacobsoni was studied. A total of 1 500 larvae were grafted into queenless cell builders: first, when they contained worker brood of all ages; second, when they had only sealed brood; and third, when they had no brood. Ten days after grafting, the sealed queen cells were opened and examined for Varroa mites. The percent acceptance of the grafted larvae was not related to the degree of colony infestation, when rearing conditions were otherwise kept similar. No mites entered queen cells in lightly infested colonies. More mites entered queen cells in heavily infested colonies that contained no worker or drone brood.


Harizanis 1991


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> but you not controaling the age of the egg, so the frame you moved could have 1-2-3 day old eggs so that when some were safe to move/cut out others weren't........


Of course I get this 3 day spread.
I consider the spread of 3 days and have three timelines considered for the moves because they intersect (on the most ideal day any of cells is movable). One issue is - I don't control my own life at 100% so that I could control the bee moves to be 100% ideal.

Yes, that brood infestation was extreme (the pic shows it).
So in such extreme case, the queen cells could be a target too - I concede.


----------



## GregB

Wingless queen.
Looks like DWV to me.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> View attachment 57551
> 
> Wingless queen.
> Looks like DWV to me.


Wow- I've never seen that before, GregV. Thanks for posting- sorry for your troubles.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Wow- I've never seen that before, GregV. Thanks for posting- sorry for your troubles.


It is cool.
A learning process.
Lesson learned - don't set new queen cells into a completely brood-less resource.
ALL the mites from every nook will jump into those queen cells - the queen batch is likely to fail.
Unless, of you are willing to run a very thorough fumigation before doing the batch.

I think I still pulled some queens off from that sour batch - I account for two (hope for three).
Waiting for the mating part - then we count the chickens.

Meanwhile, I started a new queen-less resource just yesterday.
While they have plenty of brood to move along, I should be able to run a batch of QCs of my own choice along the way.
Really, I only want to requeen 5-6 hives, if they are even salvageable and worth it.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Litsinger said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is cool.
> A learning process.
> Lesson learned - don't set new queen cells into a completely brood-less resource.
> 
> 
> 
> Good point. I figure that as long as I learn a lesson that helps me gain experience and I won't easily repeat, that's a worthwhile investment.
Click to expand...


----------



## GregB

I have to say I am fond of my mini nucs.
It was a summer well spent learning how to run these.

Free-standing mini frames allow to use a variety of hard foam cooler boxes as mini-nics.
No need for exact fitness.














Originally, I was doing 3-frame plus a reused zip-back as a feeder (zip-bag from cereals or granola work fine).
These 3-framers work fine as mating nucs or temporary queen holding nucs.






.
Certain failure rate is expected; but investment is small to worry about it.
A thing I learned - need to add more bees than I initially did - should really pack them in (because some will fly off).
Also may need to add more bees later still.
The more the merrier. 
This is really needed to maintain the micro-climate - too few bees just can not do it.
Still, it is only 1-2 cups of bees, since the volume is really small.

Another cool feature of the free-standing mini-frame - you can combine this nuc with a standard hive.
Just stand up those mini-frames on top of the standard frames (use paper if wish) - combine is done.
One example of such combine would be to join the queen from the mini to a queen-less hive in late season (as the mini is no longer needed).


----------



## GregB

So now, what happens when a queen is pulled out of the mini?
Since I don't sell these commercially but rather use around my own "business" - I do whatever.

Sometimes I keep them queen-less few days, if I know that some queen will need a parking space.
Then park a spare queen in a queen-less mini-nuc.
So the minis make great queen parking spots. 

It is really not feasible to waste a full-sized nuc (or God forbid, a full-size hive) for queen parking.
People end up pinching fine queens that someone may want eventually.

But a mini-nuc is perfect for queen parking. 
I managed to sell two unneeded queens I had parked in the minis.
I also just gave away two sub-standard queens - people used them to check the queen-status of their hives or whatever.
So - no need to be pinching the extra queens.
*Park them* instead for any ad-hoc need OR to sell on an opportunity.
Just watching how often our local beeks scream - they need a queen now! - I figure, I might as well keep my extra queens for sales.
Surely, people will be looking for queens through the fall and into the winter.

Another thing - I combine the minis when I need to eliminate a unit I no longer need.
Pretty much I have mini-long hives and only a cooler size limits how many frames I can stick into.

Here two 3-framers got combined into a 6-framer.













Free standing frames make it easy to flip through the frames as-if pages - quick inspection.

Here is a 5-frame nuc; also a result of a combine.














3-framer and 6-framer on my mating station.








Now being the end of the summer 2020, I am planning to keep a couple of spare queens in these minis for as long as I can.
Will combine the minis into the biggest possible cooler and keep them so.

Also, some full-size nucs will get combined - I might create a mini to hold the spare queens from such combines.
Does not matter if it later summer, makes sense to hold a spare queen for a couple of months, in case it can be sold.

I might even try wintering them, if any queens left unused or unsold.
I figure, I simply find a bigger cooler and plug a smaller cooler into it.
Can easily bring it inside the garage or the basement also.


----------



## GregB

Combined a mini with a queen-less hive tonight.
Took a mini:







Wrapped the frame where I found the queen (screen on side/triple newspaper the other side with few knife slashes) - this is essentially the queen cage now













Dropped into the hive (dropped all the other frames too, those covered with bees; the "queen cage" is standing on the top).







Done.

This hive already killed one queen (I missed a darn QC).
Fingers crossed - this combine works out.


----------



## Gray Goose

looks like fun Greg
Hopefully this works.

with my Lang NUCs and the Lang hives, the combine is easier , however as you have offered takes more resources.

How many queen did you get raised this year?

With queens come options.....

GG


----------



## GregB

Technically, I did not mate a lot of queens in the mating nucs as I was learning and made mistakes.
I count *three **good *queens I produced in the minis.

Another four mated were outright duds and/or suspects.
They are/were kind of laying but are substandard (too small; too sluggish; deformed/sick).

A suspect, slow queen is heading my last standing mini right now (just keeping it queen-right) - this will be an experiment and I will keep them running as late as I can. OR will park a good extra queen into that mini if I end up with one later.
Just want at least one mini standing by, the last remaining as of last night.

Primary mistake I made - need to pack more bees into those minis, since some will fly off.
So need to shake in 2 cups of young bees into a 3-frame standard mini at the start up- that should end up with a good amount.
Add more bees if have to later.
Too few bees resulted in poor queens or no queens.

However, I need MORE minis still (I got about 10 now).
One swarm swarmed out on me and I got caught with the "pants down" with the virgins hatching in front of me - was not ready for it.
Had to use traditional nuc method where I made 5 full nucs so to salvage the swarm cells and mate those virgins.
No minis were available to just mate those virgins in a resource-efficient way.
With minis available, I'd mate the virgins AND still have a pretty strong after-swarm hive to work on the flow.
Going the traditional nuc way, I basically am neither here nor there - no honey and expensively mated queens (I still combined the nucs back in the end and ended up with just one hive).

I made *five good* natural swarm queens from the after-swarm - no doubt, the natural swarm queens are the best.

So basically with *eight extra good* queens of 2020 season, I sold/gave away some AND re-queened some hives AND lost some too (unsuccessful introductions). Two new queens are being introduced right now - fingers crossed.

What I really liked with the minis - every time I requeen a hive, I pulled the old queen and parked her back into a stand-by mini - for a cheap resell/donation or for an urgent need where ANY queen will do to just plug a hole. But also this way I keep the mini queen-right and keep it going through the season. It is a very good idea to keep an existing mini going through the entire season, once you created it.

So now, having the mini equipment and some experience, for the next year, 
- I will simply put a "desired queen" into a mini nuc with a shook swarm
- this will be a 5-6-7 frame mini packed with bees 
- I will keep them in the backyard and force them into a swarm mode and force the natural swarm cells
- when the swarm cells are in good progress, I will move the "desired queen" into the next mini and force the swarm conditions there too
- harvest and mate the natural queens

That is the idea.

The 5-6-7 frame mini nucs made of energy efficient Styrofoam (if *packed *with bees) are 
- large enough to allow for easy work and feeding
- large enough to allow for some colony size fluctuation and slightly larger colony (a good thing vs. the 3-frame minis).
- small enough to maintain good micro-climate using small amounts of bees
- small enough to quickly force the swarm state *repeatedly*
- small to easily find the queen and the QCs
- small enough to keep on the back porch under the close supervision to closely monitor the swarm status
- small enough to easily move around and transport to wherever is needed.

3-frame minis are fine for queen mating cheaply and also for temporary queen parking and this is where it stands.
Otherwise, they are a tad too small.

Robbing - a non-issue at all.
One simply must use the frames in the warm-way and make sure that the highest density of the bees are directly on the first frame and on the front wall of the mini-hive (and this is how the warm way naturally works). Regardless how few bees there are in the mini - if there are concentrated by the entrance, they will guard the entrance well. A small, round entrance (1/2 inch or less) and config done "the warm way" take care of the robbing potential.

Based on the 2020 season experience, I want to repeatedly produce and harvest natural swarm cells the next year using the mini nucleus setups. This is my mini-nuc conclusion.


----------



## Gray Goose

Greg

I somewhat did the same thing


So now, having the mini equipment and some experience, for the next year,
- I will simply put a "desired queen" into a mini nuc with a shook swarm
- this will be a 5-6-7 frame mini packed with bees
- I will keep them in the backyard and force them into a swarm mode and force the natural swarm cells
- when the swarm cells are in good progress, I will move the "desired queen" into the next mini and force the swarm conditions there too
- harvest and mate the natural queens

only difference is the mini part, I would label my efforts as "Maxi"
I took my 3 best over wintered hives, 2 30 frame and 1 24 frame (all 3 deep 1 was 8 frame) I did not super or give any space.
My this years goal after loosing 50% was to get increase from "well wintering" hives.
As expected soon they had Q cells. I pulled the Queen, and placed her into a 5 frame NUC with 3 frames of bees and 1 shook frame.
In All cases I caught the hive before it swarmed. The 30 framers made int o 6 NUCS and the 24 Into 5. I had about 80% success to get laying queens. When building the cells I like 20+ frames of bees. to hatch I like 4 min. 
Almost all my NUCs went to 5 over 5, and I fed in 50 or so frames of foundation to get drawn, this worked well IMO so I also use the NUCs as comb developing boxes.

Most were moved to full size hive, where I added 3 or 4 combs from dead outs and a couple more foundation. The earliest and best 2 each have 4 supers of medium frames honey just collected. I did add to my and my mentees sites 13 hives this way for the year, Plus the 4 swarms makes that 17 new hives for the year.

Mine are in the back yard and close supervision is a needed feature, or it is possible to loose the primary swarm.

this big difference for me is, all my frames in this "project" are deep lang and are now in a hive somewhere for the winter.

And I also agree Greg playing with the smaller NICs was big fun and they are light and easy to work with. In 3 instances I requeened a queen less hive with a Queen rite NUC, in one case a 4 hour drive was needed.
during the summer I always had a queen or 2 ,,I "Could" deploy if needed, somewhat nice feeling.

glad you found the experience to be good enough to do next year.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Greg
> .....
> 
> Mine are in the back yard and close supervision is a needed feature, or it is possible to loose the primary swarm.
> 
> ..........
> 
> glad you found the experience to be good enough to do next year.
> 
> GG


Yes, the close supervision is the must.
My backyard is limited.
I don't really know where the "desired queens" will come from the next year - I got 6 other locations (in addition to the backyard).
Have this $35 queen and have three of her daughters hopefully doing well - will see if they are worth anything.
Wherever the bees will winter best IF they do, I will fetch the wintered queens from there and will run the mini-project right on my back porch.

For now need to stock up on proper cooler sizes for the 6-7 frame sizing for the project.
And need to staple together more mini-frames so that I am never out of them.

If this idea works out - it should be great:
- running 2-3 queens in the swarming mode non-stop (trivially keeping the entrance screened, so to not loose the queen)
- pulling the mini-frames with swarm QCs on them for mating and plugging right back new mini-frames
- moving the queens between the minis when needed

All the while, I will keep the full-size units large enough for the honey crop pursuits (not to waste the force for queen raising and such). Possibly just doing very large fly-back/brood-break splits for swarm/mite control on the big ones.


----------



## msl

As always its fun to watch you grow as a beekeeper.
I hit you over the head fairly hard about trying minis for a year or so
10 months ago your attatude was


GregV said:


> So, I dislike specialty usage equipment - that immediately adds the overhead - the specially mating nucs included, be it Russian foam..
> I don't want them.


But necessity is the mother of trying new things. 
ike I did a few years back you had a bad winter that pushed you to be more efficient with bee resources this year. After one tries them and sees the ROI of the added overhead, minis often become part of there standard management


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## GregB

msl said:


> As always its fun to watch you grow as a beekeeper.
> I hit you over the head fairly hard about trying minis for a year or so
> 10 months ago your attatude was
> But necessity is the mother of trying new things. Like I did a few years back you had a bad winter that pushed you to be more efficient with bee resources. After one tries them and sees the ROI of the added overhead, minis often become part of there standard management


Got me on this one, MSL!
Fair enough.

BUT - I invented my own stand-up, multi-purpose frame.
It IS compatible to my standard equipment as I just demonstrated above (mini to standard combine).
AHA!

Got the queen:







Wrapped it up (food and attendance and brood - everything; in fact, I could sell it just like this too - great idea):







Deployed:


----------



## msl

you always put you own spin on things, that's what makes you fun to follow !
the frames do remind me of these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQCV64YUwww

to be fair I was surprised you went with frames and no something like skewers
looks like there is no side cut and the frames touch all the way around, did you have any issues with rolling queens?


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## GregB

msl said:


> you always put you own spin on things, that's what makes you fun to follow !
> the frames do remind me of these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQCV64YUwww
> 
> to be fair I was surprised you went with frames and no something like skewers
> looks like there is no side cut and the frames touch all the way around, did you have any issues with rolling queens?


I really like my frame and decided it worth my time cutting/stapling some wooden trash.
Some 2x4 scraps.

No rolling - consider, I don't just pull them UP blindly.
I tilt the touching neighboring frames away from the frame I about to pull (yes, they ARE touching by design).
As in here (I tilted frames #3-#6 away, so I can pull #2 out).







This is such a small mini setup and the queen is 90% of the time is on the frame #1 or frame #2.
You just take an extra second to be careful.

The fact the frames are touching, helps the small cluster of bees even more - they are simply staying inside the wood work - so I got this "hive-inside-hive" config. Bees are also NOT climbing all over the place - they really prefer staying inside the wood work - the pics show this well - NO bees on the frame tops.
This also allows me to stand this frame into most any container - a cardboard box from Amazon makes for great little hive too.
The fact that the frame freely stand makes working them a joy - like wrapping the frame into a package to be transported/deployed.
I can always have free hands as the frame will stand on its own.

Also, I filled up many of my frames by existing combs; just cut them to size and plug them in; done.
It does need to be perfect - just get the bees started.
Or I can plug in some honey/bee bread from existing combs - immediate food served.
Go and do it with a skewer...


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## GregB

msl said:


> the frames do remind me of these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQCV64YUwww


I have seen many vids like this.
And always thought - it is so awkward that at least one hand must be holding a frame.
Why hold the darn frame?
Who said it needs be so?


----------



## AR1

Gray Goose said:


> Greg
> 
> 
> - I will keep them in the backyard and force them into a swarm mode and force the natural swarm cells
> - when the swarm cells are in good progress, I will move the "desired queen" into the next mini and force the swarm conditions there too
> - harvest and mate the natural queens
> GG


Similar somewhat to me too, this year, but I used larger 5-frame deep nucs. It still forced enough swarms that I flat ran out of equipment to house the bees in. I was so busy building nucs last winter that I neglected both frames and full-sized boxes. 

Now I have a lot of wild cross comb because they got hived without enough deep frames. I'll deal with it next spring. Either the bees will die in winter so no problem, or I'll be able to cut out the comb without worrying so much about killing a queen when it's too late to do anything about it.


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## Litsinger

GregV:

I enjoyed reading your recent updates and the conversation that followed.

I've said it before, but I do appreciate your pioneering spirit and willingness to try different things.

Hopefully the mini nucs provide you with a steady supply of quality queens, and your strategy of 'queen parking' makes good sense to me- I am all the time reading about folks here in Kentucky urgently looking for queens at odd times through the season and a mated queen would literally be worth her weight in gold.

Keep the updates coming.

Russ


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## GregB

Most of my bees are bone dry.
Feeding time.

If you are like me, a cheapskate and/or a fan of recycling/upcycling, here is how feeding looks like.
1 gallon







2/3 gallon








Zip bags from the Bob's Red Mill products are my favorite.


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## SeaCucumber

I want to switch to mini mating nucs with standing (GregV) frames. I use all 10 frame mediums. For mating, I've only used queen castles with 2 big frames per nuc. 

Pros

I don't know why I would want to overwinter nucs. It seems counterproductive. These nucs makes it easy to avoid that.
easy to use the frames + boxes in big hives
GregV frames: I don't know how beeks fit normal mini frames between standard frames. With GregV frames that are made to fit in normal frames, this looks easy. I could put them anywhere in any of my hives.
mini frame queen castles:
a. more heat efficient
b. More frames per colony gives me flexibility. Frames don't usually have much variety of stores.
My ideas for my new nucs

GregV frames that fit in normal medium frames with good bee space
a. How many should fit lengthwise?
boxes
a. queen castles
b. Ideally they fit on standard 10 fr. boxes. This might involve frames resting on angle stock metal.
nucs
a. They have enough frames to give me flexibility.
b. Nucs in the middle of the castle could have less frames because they get more heat.
c. Should I not add a pollen frame? 
d. Does open brood help to keep bees from leaving, and should I add it?


----------



## GregB

SeaCucumber said:


> ........
> 
> With GregV frames that are made to fit in normal frames, this looks easy. I could put them anywhere in any of my hives.
> ..........
> [*]GregV frames that fit in normal medium frames with good bee space
> a. How many should fit lengthwise?
> .......
> c. Should I not add a pollen frame?
> d. Does open brood help to keep bees from leaving, and should I add it?


SC,
My current mini-frames are *not *made to fit any other frame.
Where do you see my specs to fit other frames? 
I never claimed such spec.
Nor this was my goal.
One of my goals is to take advantage of the common existing objects around me and use them as beekeeping equipment and tools.
So my mini-frames are made up to facilitate this approach and to fit inside Styrofoam coolers of suitable sizes with absolute minimal modifications.

In general, I already described what I have done - I follow the KISS principle as much as I can (as the life as already over-complicated, beyond the bees).

Take an existing container with a lid; plug the frames in (may contain some honey/pollen - optional); put in some artificial feed; put in a QC or a Q; dump in just enough young bees; close; done.
Sit back and wait for the queen to properly hatch, mate and develop.
All of this should take place during the most favorable time in season for breeding - naturally.

So I am not going to give some definitive answers as far as pollen/brood/frames to fit other frames.
Obviously - these are ALL good ideas you are listing; go ahead and do them if you want and can. 
And yet NONE of these are required.

I just wing it with the resources that I have, using the time that I have, and don't get hung up on non-critical details.
You are free to experiment as you see fit.


----------



## GregB

Finally finished the first experimental 300x300 CVH (Compact Vertical Hive) set and moved bees from a trap into it.
I will probably discuss more details in the "Warre" sub-forum when get to it.

6 boxes + 2 bottoms + 2 tops - should be the basic, minimal starter set.
More boxes are to be built, but not right now.
Assembled.







Disassembled.







Standard prototype frame as compared to Lang medium frame.







Takes variety of 300mm (12.5") wide frames.







Bees got new home


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## AR1

Interesting. Looks a bit tippy being so tall and narrow.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Finally finished the first experimental 300x300 CVH (Compact Vertical Hive) set and moved bees from a trap into it.


Glad to read you got this one off the ground, GregV.

I'll look forward to your observations on the pros/cons of this set-up versus the other hive set-ups you are running.

I assume you're having to think hard about Winter preps by now?

Best of success to you in closing out the season.

Russ


----------



## SeaCucumber

I really like the corner joints and interlocking pegs. They look fast to make and strong. Since the pegs face down, its easier to put a box on the ground when inspecting. I wish all my hives were Michael Palmer style nucs (with a shared bottom box) and those joints.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Interesting. Looks a bit tippy being so tall and narrow.


I was unsure about this for a while, but what the heck.
I added a corner-peg, interlocking design to it; build them with 2x wood thick walls; feels plenty sturdy and solid.
The boxes a bit heavy (by design), but it helps with the stability.
The lids are heavy and the bottoms are heavy too (relatively, of course); this is all made from 2x wood (or double 1x wood).
These all help with the stable structure.
But since the standard frame is to be small, working by the 8-frame box should be manageable.

People have been running hundreds of these for years and years by now.
Most everyone who went for it and switched to the CVs - never looked back.
And here we are still afraid of something.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDeej-1B4zs


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Glad to read you got this one off the ground, GregV.
> 
> I'll look forward to your observations on the pros/cons of this set-up versus the other hive set-ups you are running.
> 
> I assume you're having to think hard about Winter preps by now?
> 
> Best of success to you in closing out the season.
> 
> Russ


Hey Russ,
This season is ALL about feeding. 
2/3 of my units must be fed (thanks to mid-summer dry spell, mostly).
1/3 is set on their own, but no harvest (unless get the dead outs, of course).

I got 15 units at the moment but this is not the final #.
Am fully prepared to combine as needed, just waiting out longer.
Probably in October it will be more clear how to proceed.
I have not done any mite counts either (except one unit) - have not gotten much time.
But actually, I only care to count in the units to be combined, if gets to it.
This weekend finally made a round to distribute syrup or feed honey - first time in two weeks. 
Bearly had daylight to check on all units.
It is harvest time - lots of apple!


----------



## GregB

SeaCucumber said:


> I really like the corner joints and interlocking pegs. They look fast to make and strong. Since the pegs face down, its easier to put a box on the ground when inspecting. I wish all my hives were Michael Palmer style nucs (with a shared bottom box) and those joints.


SC,
I always wanted to try the interlocking design.
This idea really came to the original designer from the military transport crates - this is how they done (except looking up).
But then other bright people decided to switch the pegs DOWN (great idea!).
So this is what I am experimenting with.
Took some peg shaving to get it all working right.
Also the boxes must be made with good precision to fit.
But once the process is going and some jigs are made, based on the experience - should be an automatic thing.

One thing about this design - it also provides a very ergonomic grip to the boxes.


----------



## AR1

I think they look pretty darned good. Sturdy anyway, and can see some advantages. Interested to hear your thoughts a year from now, after some practice.


----------



## GregB

Will report on this and that soon.
Tomorrow and Wednesday are last warm days.
Then just cold autumn days.

Meanwhile, here is result of treating the hive with simple dried horseradish root (via a smoker).
Jump to 0:45 and see for yourself - look at the paper; then watch for that paper being lifted and look under it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqKUhSEm5mQ

Here is a PDF that also indicates the horseradish is not a simple placebo (translate if care to read):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BYhbGNrzpw4GJvSVf5JPlD68P13R9jj0/view

I am intrigued as some of my units are virtually dead anyway (per my mite estimates).
Might as well experiment on the bees that are still alive. 
Hehe.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Meanwhile, here is result of treating the hive with simple dried horseradish root (via a smoker).
> Jump to 0:45 and see for yourself - look at the paper; then watch for that paper being lifted and look under it.


So I watched the video and attempted to Google Translate the publication. I got the sense that the smoke of the horseradish root (among others including wormwood an eucalyptus) offer an acaricide effect- but I couldn't figure what the paper is for? I assume what we are largely seeing under the paper are dead varroa mites?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> So I watched the video and attempted to Google Translate the publication. I got the sense that the smoke of the horseradish root (among others including wormwood an eucalyptus) offer an acaricide effect- but I couldn't figure what the paper is for? I assume what we are largely seeing under the paper are dead varroa mites?


Paper was there to simply estimate the mite fall (it was a piece of greased paper).
The guy says here forgot the paper in the hive for some weeks.
When later he found the paper he decided to film what he found (the piles of the dead mites that, apparently, tried to hide under the paper and died under it).

The PDF referenced compares wormwood, eucalyptus and horseradish affects.
Horseradish is found to have significantly stronger effect than the other too.

Here is his method of "treating" - dry horseradish root and chili powder - added directly into the smoker.
This is all he has done for 5 years (as commented in September, 2018).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGvky4jZ8iU


----------



## GregB

15 units so far (result of 11 captured swarms and one purchased queen).
Of course, this is a subject to change downwards (question is - how much downwards).

Scattered across 7 yards.

Starting this season, I decided to do sugar roll mite counts so to roughly know my status, what to expect over the winter, and have some idea of the mortality causes.
Also, I want to avoid combining a very high mite count to a low mite count - that would be a disservice.

Someone was trying to convince me to be doing alcohol washes - I am not convinced the precision is justified for my needs (while killing valuable young bees and potentially some queens too).

What do I achieve by the alcohol wash precision exactly? 
I don't see benefits of alcohol wash just for the needs of backyards decision making.
For my needs, a rough eye ball estimates done in September/October tell me all I need to know.

And now the 1/2 cup sugar roll mite counts (somewhat inflated as the 1/2 cups were well hipped the way I did it - but it is better than under-reported).

Yard #1 (backyard):
#1 - 73 mites (24-25%) - (early May swarm escaped from some Warre hive - no treatments in 2019; administered broodless fly back early July) - likely dead-out, there was no capped brood during the count and so ~100% mites were phoretic thus elevating the #
#2 - 16 (5-6%) - (F1 daughter of the purchased "hygienic" queen) - potential survivor; this was a queenless split from #1 above; used for queen rearing for some weeks
#3 - 13 (4-5%) - (F1 daughter of the purchased "hygienic" queen) - potential survivor; this was a very tiny May swarm of Italian bees re-queened in July

Yard #2 (0.5 miles away from the backyard):
#4 - 37 mites (12-13%) - (random June swarm; administered brood-less shook swarm in July) - likely dead-out;
#5 - 9 mites (~3%) - (purchased "hygienic" queen; the brood pattern is just mediocre and the colony is just average size at best) - potential survivor (better be after paying money!!!)
#6 - 13 mites (4-5%) - (F1 daughter of the purchased "hygienic" queen) - potential survivor; 

Yard #3 (5 miles South-West from the backyard):
#7 - 13 (4-5%) - (F1 daughter from #1 above) - potential survivor; they get to enjoy the spunky new CVH too.
#8 - 51 (~17%) - (outcome of some random June swarm mess - re-swarmed - re-queened/superseded N-times - current new virgin and handful of remaining bees) - likely dead-out

Yard #4 (10 miles South from the backyard):
#9 - 17 (5-6%) - (random mid-July swarm) - potential survivor;

Yard #5 (5 miles South-East from the backyard):
#10 - 67 (22-23%) - (random June swarm - one of those "eat-and-grow" bees that store no honey) - likely dead-out;
#11 - 15 (~5%) - (F1 daughter of a random June swarm which I found to be desirable) - potential survivor;
#12 - not counted - (random June swarm - mother of #11 - some Russian-like traits) - due to propolis I could not move the frames easily and left it uncounted - unknown status

Yard #6 (15 miles South-East from the backyard):
#13 - 26 (8-9%) - (self-re-queened random July swarm) - probably dead-out;

Yard #7 (10 miles South from the backyard):
#14 - not counted - (random June swarm) - unknown status
#15 - not counted - (random July swarm - left to winter as-is in the log trap) - unknown status


----------



## GregB

Since some of my units are already "walking dead", I want to experiment on them.
This season it will be dry horseradish root using the regular smoker.

Smoked the #1 last night - closed all entrances but one - pumped it until I heard the bees roaring.
Unfortunately, I was not able to put greased paper under them to capture any fall out - did not work out and the bees got agitated.
Bees are flying normally this morning. 
Should repeat in a week.
Then need to re-count, ideally.

Probably smoke a couple more units, time permitting.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> ..........
> #1 - 73 mites (24-25%) - (early May swarm escaped from some Warre hive - no treatments in 2019; administered broodless fly back early July) - likely dead-out, there was no capped brood during the count and so ~100% mites were phoretic thus elevating the #
> ........
> #4 - 37 mites (12-13%) - (random June swarm; administered brood-less shook swarm in July) - likely dead-out;
> ......


These two units I subjected to July brood-less splits.
In short - the high mite #s show of no significant help from these mid-summer brood-less splits.

Though the queens were able to resume the egg laying immediately.
Maybe I should have been confining them for a week or so - using a cage release approach - to extend the break (for next time now).

Or maybe for highly susceptible bees nothing really matters. 
They just need to be discontinued and done with.


----------



## msl

Great stuff
so 6 of each... caught swam line(s) vs purchased line

"Swarm" average mites per shake 45 (15%) 
"Purchased" average mites per shake 13 ( 4.3%)
I think you got your moneys worth!! 
If you had doubled down on the purchased you may have gotten even lower numbers as they are sitting next to high count hives and likely getting some drift (seeley and all)



> This season it will be dry horseradish root using the regular smoker.


This has me a bit confused..... your putting isothiocyanate in to a hive to kill mites, I don't see a difference between that or any other naturally occurring organic compound. 



> These two units I subjected to July brood-less splits.
> In short - the high mite #s show of no significant help from these mid-summer brood-less splits.


shook swarm or flyback? I have found fly back to be very effective at creating almost mite free starts 



> Someone was trying to convince me to be doing alcohol washes - I am not convinced the precision is justified for my needs (while killing valuable young bees and potentially some queens too).


for your use, ya probably not needed.


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## GregB

msl said:


> I think you got your moneys worth!!


So far, so good.
It does not matter IF the purchased queen seems mediocre - generally speaking.
That maybe exactly because she is hygienic?
For sure, the counts are speaking for themselves.

I somewhat regret, I did not do the counts before to evaluate my bees - but hey, better late than never.
Live and learn.
Btw, one local TF beek is claiming he is having bees surviving with 6-10% mite.
OK, maybe. Be great if true.

The seller of the hygienic queen responded to my questions:


> I have learned from my testing is that 10 mites per 300 bee sample (3.3%) or less in October is what has the best chance of survival. The key though is 10 or less, the lower the number the higher the chance of survival. It's not to say that a colony with a count of 11-15 mites per 300 bee sample couldn't survive, I have seen it happen but it has the odds against it (my best guess is a 20% chance of survival and that's being optimistic). Anything with a count of 16+ (5.3%+) is a goner according to my records.





> This has me a bit confused..... your putting isothiocyanate in to a hive to kill mites,


As in - *am I treating? *
LOL.
OK, yes - as in "checking out anecdotal miticide evidence for edible plant root I grow in the back yard".
Especially, as I have have totally throw away bees, as the counts indicated (those rough counts are really a good practice) - might as well see what happens.

I already have the root and it dried perfectly in my solar wax-melter.
One issue - the horse radish smoke may be reminding the "weed" smoke - it maybe. 
So the backyard smelled like it - the "weed".

This past spring it was kinda tough to plan ahead any work until I caught enough swarms.
At this same rate, I could as well keep the sub-standard material afloat just so I could plug into it better material - later.
And so some experimenting sounds like fun.

So unprincipled of me! 
Well, I kinda liked selling few queens to cover the expenses.
But also, IF the horse radish stuff works as claimed, even mildly - heck, that is some $$$ in it (trivial cultivation, totally organic, food item, should be no residue from the smoke application, takes no specialty equipment - just the smoker!! .....blah, blah.... - you see the picture).
OK, I am being cynical. 
You are going to rhetorically ask - what is wrong with OA?
Well, I just like the *alternative *life-style.
OK... stopping this line of thought for now.



> shook swarm or flyback?


Both.
#1 - brood-less fly-back - very surprised at the horrible mite counts because only foragers returned to the lone queen running about on empty combs; in theory, this should have been a good mite-shedding measure - and yet.... terrible outcome (ESPECIALLY because this is the early May swarm that originated from that Warre hive with supposedly very hygienic bees - NOT)...

One significant (maybe!) difference is that I keep the bees from the Warre in my 20-frame long hive.
It is a totally different environment in many ways - long hive vs. tree hive.
Maybe the well-ventilated long hives are beneficial for the mites compared to the Warre. 
That's one thought.

#4 - brood-less shook swarm - less surprised, because I shook away young bees along with the queen (granted the young bees are more infested).

And yes - after much thought, I concluded +/-10% (even +/-20%) in the test precision results is not significant to me.
With the TF bees claimed survivability all way up to 10% mites, I am not going to worry of that precision minutia - it is a big range already.


----------



## JWPalmer

Hi Greg, just thought I would let you know that some of your ideas are rubbing off on me. This year I have delayed treating and am practicing a sort of soft bond on the hives. I lost 8 of the 20 early on, but as of this weekend have 11 strong hives and 2 nucs remaining with no feeding or treatments. I plan to start treating soon as the hives should be broodless in another week or two. Started feeding last weekend but seveval hives, not all, are pretty loaded already. Those that survive should do well next season and will be used for splits and breeding. Thanks for the encouragement by posting your own trials.


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## msl

> Well, I just like the alternative life-style.


Fair enuff answer , I ran in to a group of people lately who are dead set against using OAV or dribble OA as its "chemicals" but jumped all over rhubarb leaves because they have OA in them(plus some other stuff that is bad for humans to eat, its not the OA that is toxic in the leaves rhubarb leaves have 1/2 the OA of spinach ) so that "natural" not "chemical" :scratch:
So I was just wanting in site in to your rational (not wanting to set off a "what's right" kinda thing walk in the weeds)



> So unprincipled of me!
> Well, I kinda liked selling few queens to cover the expenses.


as usual it fun watching you grow as a beekeeper 
Did you harvest the walking dead's honey 1st to avoid possible contamination ? Aside from bad tasteing honey it breaks down in to Hydrogen cyanide when burned so experiment with care


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## GregB

JWPalmer said:


> Hi Greg, just thought I would let you know that some of your ideas are rubbing off on me. This year I have delayed treating and am practicing a sort of soft bond on the hives. I lost 8 of the 20 early on, but as of this weekend have 11 strong hives and 2 nucs remaining with no feeding or treatments. I plan to start treating soon as the hives should be broodless in another week or two. Started feeding last weekend but seveval hives, not all, are pretty loaded already. Those that survive should do well next season and will be used for splits and breeding. Thanks for the encouragement by posting your own trials.


JW, I don't know if you do counts or not...

If not, I recommend trying out those sugar rolls and get a feel for it.
Even if only few hives.
Even without being hard ***** about the precision and stuff - the difference between 5-6% and 15-16% is so large that is hard to miss that.
But yet 15% is pretty much a dead out; and yet 5% can very much survive as is.
Even if you treat, the 5% colony can be worthwhile for keeping forward (and the 15% not).

I only meant to check my hygienic line initially - to see if they ARE what was promised.
And they basically ARE for this season.

Along the way, I went ahead and tested the nearby random hives too.
Then I even tested more hives on the remote yards (while feeding them anyway, IF time was permitting).
I got 12 hives out of 15 tested - but that is where I am going to stop; just no time.

Also nice thing to double-check your gut feeling.
Some bees I was spot on - I felt they were crap (the eat-eat-eat bees) - and nailed that.
But yet, some other bees (e.g. my #1) I felt good about them - and completely missed.
Sure enough, #1 is even shedding DW bees, I just noticed today.

Unfortunately, this is looking less and less the "lazy beekeeping" style.
It is what it is.


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## GregB

msl said:


> Fair enuff answer , I ran in to a group of people lately who are dead set against using OAV or dribble OA as its "chemicals" but jumped all over rhubarb leaves because they have OA in them(plus some other stuff that is bad for humans to eat, its not the OA that is toxic in the leaves rhubarb leaves have 1/2 the OA of spinach ) so that "natural" not "chemical" :scratch:
> So I was just wanting in site in to your rational (not wanting to set off a "what's right" kinda thing walk in the weeds)
> 
> 
> as usual it fun watching you grow as a beekeeper
> Did you harvest the walking dead's honey 1st to avoid possible contamination ? Aside from bad tasteing honey it breaks down in to Hydrogen cyanide when burned so experiment with care


I don't really mean to get onto this "treat-treat" regiment either for many reasons.
That in itself is a dead-end.

I kind of like the approach my queen seller does.
Out of his ~100 hives this season (he says) - he did not treat 60 as this was not needed - that is his selection program.
But the rest he either treated (just to pull them through the winter and then re-queen/use up for resources) OR he culled them straight up as hopeless mite dumps.

So I find his a reasonable approach.
Of course, he is testing and re-testing like crazy and does the alcohol.
But he depends on his bees money-wise (and I don't).

Hydrogen cyanide - I hope I did not screw up my honey because I did not remove from #1 (meant to do it; looked at it; left as is).
But whatever is capped is most likely OK and I am not concerned.
The uncapped I will try and taste when I can, just to see.
But hey, I like horseradish as a go-to spice too - this is not changing!

Still, better google up on the subject, thanks for the search terms.

I guess most any good foods are full of toxicity at minute amounts:


> Cabbage, radish, cauliflower, mustard, and horseradish are full of isothiocyanates, which can be metabolized to mutagens, and also to cyanide derivatives


http://www.nmfrc.org/pdf/psf2001/01may98.pdf


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## William Bagwell

GregV said:


> I
> 
> Still, better google up on the subject, thanks for the search terms.
> 
> I guess most any good foods are full of toxicity at minute amounts:
> 
> http://www.nmfrc.org/pdf/psf2001/01may98.pdf


Interesting! Just found a similar list which includes broccoli, and the side bar in your link shows wild cherry leaves as having lots of isothiocyanate. Both of these would be easy and cheap to experiment with.


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## GregB

William Bagwell said:


> Interesting! Just found a similar list which includes broccoli, and the side bar in your link shows wild cherry leaves as having lots of isothiocyanate. Both of these would be easy and cheap to experiment with.


Horseradish is just so very easy to cultivate - once you get it going, it will be a per-annual, maintenance-free bed for the rest of your life. In fact, you must harvest it periodically to just control the spreading.
Also very easy to prepare and administer - dig just as much you need; dry; put in to your smoker. 

I read some more about Hydrogen cyanide.
So it turned out, I already consumed so much of it, it is no joke - a passive tobacco smoker for many years.
Basically, give yourself a favor and don't smoke (actively or passively).

Habitual smoking is the real deal, as far as the cyanide compounds are concerned (some people use straight tobacco leaves too in the smokers - the same deal).


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## AR1

My horseradish has not expanded in over 10 years. Two plants the whole time. Saw one small new one this year. The soil is a very hard, compacted clay, so that may be why. I have never tried to harvest it, but it might be a good idea to dig it up and split it. Maybe plant some in my garden with better soil.


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## GregB

AR1 said:


> My horseradish has not expanded in over 10 years. Two plants the whole time. Saw one small new one this year. The soil is a very hard, compacted clay, so that may be why. I have never tried to harvest it, but it might be a good idea to dig it up and split it. Maybe plant some in my garden with better soil.


For sure - most any root vegetable does not like hard, compacted clay.
From my experience, horseradish is rather a quickly spreading, hard to kill, nuisance weed, IF in favorable setting and left unchecked.


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## AR1

GregV said:


> For sure - most any root vegetable does not like hard, compacted clay.
> From my experience, horseradish is rather a quickly spreading, hard to kill, nuisance weed, IF in favorable setting and left unchecked.


Most of my garden stuff is like that. Self-seeding or I just scatter seeds. Corn, melons and a few other exceptions.


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## GregB

AR1 said:


> Most of my garden stuff is like that. Self-seeding or I just scatter seeds. Corn, melons and a few other exceptions.


Hey, AR, any experience with cold-frame usage?

I got two cold-frames built several years ago.
The usage was a mixed bag - some successes/some failures.

But every fall when I don't setup the cold frames for a potential late crop (radishes and some greens) - I later regret I did not go for it.
I might just setup my cold frames for 2020!
Never know here - might just harvest a nice crop yet.

This evening I will go out and harvest my last green beans and call them done (the weather is turning).
Still plenty of green onions and beets are in the ground thou!


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## Litsinger

JWPalmer said:


> Thanks for the encouragement by posting your own trials.


JW:

FWIW I appreciate the detailed and helpful way in which you respond to a good many of the posts here on Beesource. Just a suggestion, but I would certainly appreciate reading your chronicles if you would be willing to start your own thread.

Thanks for the help and advice you have afforded me along the way.

Russ


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> For my needs, a rough eye ball estimates done in September/October tell me all I need to know.


GregV:

Good posting- I have enjoyed and appreciated the recent conversations about mite count evaluations and 'natural' miticide options.

While I will readily admit that I am no expert, I would concur that you are right that the mite count in the Fall is the only one that really matters, and that it does not have to be all that sophisticated nor overly precise to be valuable.

I have taken to heart MSL's point (as originally postulated by Glenn Apiaries and now dutifully carried forward by Randy Oliver) that at the end of the day all that really matters in terms of resistance breeding is consistently low mite population growth and adequate winter bee populations at the end of the year- all the rest of the diagnostics and management techniques are just (helpful perhaps) details.

Keep up the good work- and best of success to your overwintering preparations.

Russ


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## AR1

GregV said:


> Hey, AR, any experience with cold-frame usage?


Something I always want to try but am too lazy to get around to. Now that I am graduated from school however, I may find the energy. I do plan to toss some plastic sheets over the garden tomorrow. The next three nights are predicted to get frosty, but then warm up again. Hope to keep the tomatoes going a while longer. Of the stuff I have left, mostly it is frost-tolerant greens, except the tomatoes.

It's the season for gathering seeds. Picked a few Okra this week, sweet corn, beans, melons, zucchini, and various flowers. Some stuff, like tobacco, got planted too late so may frost before I can get many seeds. I thought of something new this year. I saw at work many flowers going to seed, so when they started to dry out picked off a bunch of seed heads, also at the local library. Keeping eyes open for free seeds. I wonder what people thought I was doing...


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## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> I thought of something new this year. I saw at work many flowers going to seed, so when they started to dry out picked off a bunch of seed heads, also at the local library. Keeping eyes open for free seeds. I wonder what people thought I was doing...


Me too, AR1. I've been collecting summer and fall wildflower seeds to augment my pollinator habitat. This season I've collected Common Milkweed, Wild Burgamot, Joe Pye Weed, Ironweed and Illinois Bundleflower.

Recently, my wife was approached by a friend who remarked, "I would have sworn I saw your husband out in a field on my way home." She was right...

Later in the year I plan to collect and distribute some Redbud, Sumac and Elderberry seeds along to fence lines to help eventually augment understory foraging opportunities.


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## GregB

AR1 said:


> ...... Keeping eyes open for free seeds. I wonder what people thought I was doing...


Hey, one thing I always do in the fall season - collect seeds.
For example, I will collect seeds from sweet clover/golden rod/asters along the running trail. 
I got just a perfect spot for these seeds in the new subdivision - the new water drainage canal.
A short flying distance from my two bee yards!


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> ...... I've been collecting summer and fall wildflower seeds to augment my pollinator habitat. ..


Very cool.


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## GregB

GregV said:


> Since some of my units are already "walking dead", I want to experiment on them.
> This season it will be dry horseradish root using the regular smoker.
> 
> Smoked the #1 last night - closed all entrances but one - pumped it until I heard the bees roaring.
> Unfortunately, I was not able to put greased paper under them to capture any fall out - did not work out and the bees got agitated.
> Bees are flying normally this morning.
> Should repeat in a week.
> Then need to re-count, ideally.
> 
> Probably smoke a couple more units, time permitting.


I, basically, smoked a couple more of the virtual dead colonies (as they most certainly die anyway).
Just to ensure the bees did not die of the smoke - they did not.

I also pulled out of the #1 that scrambled piece of greased paper - there are few mites on it (could be just a natural attrition) - but it was a botched effort to consider in any way.

The honey is fine; not horseradish taste or funny smell to it after a single application; not concerned.
I am not really concerned honey-wise.

I suppose one outcome of this run was - the bees will NOT die after 40-50 puffs of horseradish smoke into the hive.
I basically puffed the smoke until it was coming out all over the hives.

Too cold now to do the mite recounts in the smoked hives. That'd be the ideal setup.
In the future I will redo this experiment in a more organized fashion with the before/after counts.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Too cold now to do the mite recounts in the smoked hives. That'd be the ideal setup.
> In the future I will redo this experiment in a more organized fashion with the before/after counts.


Good post, GregV. Interesting stuff. Sounds like you need a few screened bottom boards with trays so you can experiment to your heart's content!


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Good post, GregV. Interesting stuff. Sounds like you need a few screened bottom boards with trays so you can experiment to your heart's content!


Sounds like a complicated pieced of equipment that is too advanced for me. 

With the long hives, no built-in trays are needed. Any retired piece of cookware works just as well.

The real issue was - this experiment was an after-thought - so I failed to clear the under-frame space BEFORE I decided to this experiment.
There is a collapsed comb down there that has gotten in the way for the greased paper.

OK, I could have stolen a baking tray from home and tried ramming that through the under-frame comb.
Well, with the "surgery" in progress and bees mad at me, was not the greatest timing.
The next time will be smarter.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Sounds like a complicated pieced of equipment that is too advanced for me.
> 
> With the long hives, no built-in trays are needed. Any retired piece of cookware works just as well.


No argument from me- my only point was that with a dedicated means to slide-in a tray (or an old cookie sheet), you could perform the evaluations even during inclement conditions. May not be too big of an issue for you, but I find it handy around here, especially during those cold, rainy days that seem to always land on the day that I need to be evaluating 48 hour drops.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> No argument from me- my only point was that with a dedicated means to slide-in a tray (or an old cookie sheet), you could perform the evaluations even during inclement conditions. May not be too big of an issue for you, but I find it handy around here, especially during those cold, rainy days that seem to always land on the day that I need to be evaluating 48 hour drops.


Right.
As long as I keep the under-frame space clear *proactively*, I can do the same most any time and with minimal disturbance (with the long hives).

For the CVH hives, I want to make 1-2 bottoms equipped by/for the trays.
Something nice to have with those IF am to be consistent with the mite counting program.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Right.
> As long as I keep the under-frame space clear *proactively*, I can do the same most any time and with minimal disturbance (with the long hives).
> 
> For the CVH hives, I want to make 1-2 bottoms equipped by/for the trays.
> Something nice to have with those IF am to be consistent with the mite counting program.


Makes sense to me... I imagine you will have a lot less trouble keeping the bottom space clear than I have had keeping the upper space free of comb!


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## GregB

Status updates as of 11/09/2020 (copy/paste/modify from the above post #816 about the mite counts).
Pretty much ALL units are set with the winter stores (with or without help) - not a concern there.
All frames counts are in Ukrainian frame units (each deep Ukrainian frame is an equivalent of 2 Lang medium frames).

Yard #1 (backyard):
#1 - 73 mites (24-25%) - Weak unit on 4 frames. This unit is probably to fail as the attrition is already very high (as expected). I may just combine another mite dump into here - have another one with a young queen (#8) - nothing to loose, but a survival possibility until spring (and a potential resource IF get so lucky). This is my best honey producer though - we have decent 2021 honey crop. I also completely robbed them of every single frame - everything went into #2. At least something good from them - a bitter-sweet story.
#2 - 16 (5-6%) - (F1 queen from #5) Very weak unit on just 3 frames (still brooding and so I have some hope). There are signs of mite damaged brood - not great. This young queen was hatched and raised a bad unit (split from #1 above) and so I can see the mite struggles. Fingers crossed. Will combine with #3 IF MUST.
#3 - 13 (4-5%) - (F1 queen from #5) Weak unit on 4 frames. Also still brooding. Set on stores and all self-provisioned. No signs of mite damaged brood. This queen was hatched and raised by a strong Italian colony with unknown mite load. I will monitor and will combine with #2 IF I sense danger.Last year I went greedy and did not combine two weak units in the backyards - ended up loosing both.

Yard #2 (0.5 miles away from the backyard):
#4 - 37 mites (12-13%) - Terminated the queen and combined into #8 below.
#5 - 9 mites (~3%) - Average unit on 7 frames. Looks healthy and ready for winter. I had to feed this unit heavily - it was too weak through the summer to produce much on their own.
#6 - 13 mites (4-5%) - (F1 queen from #5) Strong unit on about 9-10 frames. Looks healthy and ready for winter. Self-provisioned too.

Yard #3 (5 miles South-West from the backyard):
#7 - 13 (4-5%) - (F1 queen from #1) - Strong unit on 8-9 frames. I like what I see so far. I also like how they set up in the CV hive. I fed this unit but it still feels a tad light on the stores, but with the fondant on the top added later (which I will do regardless) these should be set.

#8 - 51 (~17%) - I call this unit the* failure of the season* on all fronts - nothing but hassle with little to show for. Combined with #4 already and these are still only on 3 frames. May just dump them together with the #1 as an experiment to see if otherwise doomed units can still be saved via aggressive combinations for a spring expansion resource. One good thing about the late combines is that this is just another way to harvest more unused frames (honey and all).

Yard #4 (10 miles South from the backyard):
#9 - 17 (5-6%) - Strong unit on 8-9 frames. This is a heavily fed unit (not through their fault but rather mid-summer drought). Looks healthy and ready for winter.

Yard #5 (5 miles South-East from the backyard):
#10 - 67 (22-23%) - Average to strong unit as of. Regardless, I pretty much wrote this unit off in terms of both mites and worthless honey production. Had to feed them too. Will see how long they will last. Had I have handy OA solution, I'd probably use it on this unit trying to pull them through for the spring for the expansion projects. Oh well.
#11 - 15 (~5%) - (F1 from #12). Average unit on 6-7 frames. I fed these also. There are signs for mite damaged brood. Fingers crossed.
#12 - not counted - A strong unit on ~10 frames. Looks and feels ready just by brief external checks. Did not feel like breaking into this propolised-to-the-death hive. Will see in spring.

Yard #6 (15 miles South-East from the backyard):
#13 - 26 (8-9%) - Average unit on 6-7 frames. Still brooding significantly and very active. I had to feed these too and they feel set for the cold. Whatever happens is just fine.

Yard #7 (10 miles South from the backyard):
#14 - not counted - Strong Italian unit on ~10 frames. Self-provisioned. Whatever happens is fine.
#15 - not counted - Average unit on 5-6 frames. This late July swarm will be wintering directly in the trap hive on 5-6 deep Lang frames (turned at 90 degrees to make it a narrow and deep nest). I fed them as they were bone dry in the late summer (due to local drought). I actually like what I see. Fingers crossed.

So among other things, this winter I will have two units in narrow and tall configuration (#7 and #15) so to get the personal feel of the wintering in such setups. There are many good testimonials, but I want to see for myself before committing too much. This setup is supposed to be very energy efficient and favorable to winter weak to average colonies - which would be great for me.


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## Litsinger

GregV:

Good update- looks like you took fullest advantage of the resources available to you to make increase.

Based on what you know now, are there any colonies that you have your eye on that you would consider breeding material for next year?


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Based on what you know now, *are there any colonies that you have your eye on that you would consider breeding material for next year?*


#2, #3, *#5,* #6 - the line from the purchased queen (#5).
#7 - a possibility to at least keep the line going; unsure why the mite count is low (it should be high IF the heredity is any indication)
#9 - same as #7
#11, *#12* - this line (mother #12 and daughter) from the onset behaved in such a way that I want to keep them going longer

Any of these queens are on my radar IF they still stand in spring.
The rest will be used for expandable parts (while I doubt they even make it but who knows).


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## Litsinger

Thanks for the reply, GregV. Looks like you have some promising material to work with and I imagine you will have some options to consider come Spring.

Best of luck on your overwintering efforts.


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## GregB

Thanksgiving check.

Yard #1 (backyard):
#1 - 73 mites (24-25%) - Dead. Empty hive full of honey.
#2 - 16 (5-6%) - (F1 queen from #5) - Was essentially dead with only a handful of bees remaining. Did not find a queen either (I missed the queens before though). Some abandoned and frozen brood. Terminated - combined into #3. The long hive of #2 is full of honey which I will harvest - the good part.
#3 - 13 (4-5%) - (F1 queen from #5) - Very weak on only 2-3 frames. Added the remnants of #2 using paper and finally insulated well. Whichever queens persists is OK with me (IF any at all). NOT optimistic. Might even plug in a heater, because I can, just an attempt to save a queen into spring.

For unclear reasons, the low mite counts for #2 and #3 in September did not translate into the good wintering results.

Yard #2 (0.5 miles away from the backyard):
#4 - 37 mites (12-13%) - Dead (see prev update).
#5 - 9 mites (~3%) - Weak to average on 3-4 frames. Appears healthy. Fingers crossed as this queen cost me money and hopefully was worth it.
#6 - 13 mites (4-5%) - (F1 queen from #5) - Average on 4-5 frames. Too many attrition losses due to bad hive config - must fix the config ASAP - the bees wander around the half-empty hive during the warm-ups and then freeze unable to return to the cluster (beekeeper fault!!!).

Yard #3 (5 miles South-West from the backyard):
#7 - 13 (4-5%) - (F1 queen from #1) - Average to strong on 6-7 frames. Appears healthy. I like what I see so far (both the bees and the CV hive).
#8 - 51 (~17%) - Dead. Amounted to waste of time/effort with nothing to show for it.

Yard #4 (10 miles South from the backyard):
#9 - 17 (5-6%) - Strong unit on 6-7 frames. Appears healthy. A pleasant surprise so far.

Yard #5 (5 miles South-East from the backyard):
#10 - 67 (22-23%) - Still alive, weak to average on 3-4 frames, and look to be distressed. Surprised they ARE still alive. IF these hold up into December, I consider combining the unit into #11 (#10 queen is to be terminated if I can find her).
#11 - 15 (~5%) - (F1 from #12) - Weak to average on 3-4 frames. I had higher hopes but don't see much promise. Considering a combine with #10 within weeks to just improve the chances.
#12 - not counted - Average to strong unit on 6-7 frames. Fingers crossed for this unit. I still want this line to succeed; it feels as if a promising queen to continue from.

Yard #6 (15 miles South-East from the backyard):
#13 - 26 (8-9%) - Average to strong unit on 6-7 frames. Look healthy. A dark horse.

Yard #7 (10 miles South from the backyard):
#14 - not counted - Average to strong unit on 6-7 frames. Look healthy.
#15 - not counted - Average 4-5 frames. Look healthy. The bees seem to feel very comfortable in this thick walled, vertical hive. It is a shame I did not take pictures when I last pulled the frames out.


Overall, I am displeased with the yard #1.
Just like in recent politics, the polls did not produce an accurate picture of the reality it seems. The good news is - yard #1 has now two long hives full of honey frames for me to go and harvest at my pleasure over the winter months - very convenient. Will be doing my usual thing - pulling 1-2 frames and doing the small batch C&S, the best honey one can not buy.

Also, until now I still have not added any insulation by design, even though we had nights as cold as 20-25F.
Just 1-2 layers of burlap/cotton on the frames.
This is in hopes of forcing the bees into more favorable winter setups (the bees below the honey).
But also weeding out the waste as quickly as possible - I don't want to keep the weaklings on life support for few extra weeks/months and waste the carbs.

But now the December is approaching and the weather will get serious.
Pretty soon I will go around, add emergency fondant on the frame tops, toss some blankets over and install wind protection where needed. Might do more combines on the spot as well.


----------



## msl

> Just like in recent politics, the polls did not produce an accurate picture of the reality it seems.


My gut is #1mite bombed the home yard, but without taking counts one can't be sure..
I am a little bummed the new forum rounds post dates.. as they can be important...
any way it says you took your washes "Two months ago"
We see in Seeley 2019 Mite bombs or robber lures? The roles of drifting and robbing in Varroa destructor transmission from collapsing honey bee colonies to their neighbors how massive the infulx of mites can be in the time period after a roll or even treatment

Ie 300E rolled 2 mites per 300 on AUG 30th and an impressive 42/300 on Sept 29th..
that of course was the highest one, and on average the hives gained 14.5 mites per 300.. but even on the average thats enuff to push a hive over the limit if it is already starting with any sort of mite load.


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## GregB

msl said:


> My gut is #1mite bombed the home yard, but without taking counts one can't be sure..


A possibility.
To be sure the dead unit #1 was not an "abscond".
They just dwindled down and dropped off over the several freezing nights.
There was no robbing either - I did a good job to prevent any robbing whatsoever.
Though the bees from #1 could be escaping into more healthy #2 and #3.

Seeley's theory is based on the robbing transmission - not the case with me.
Not it.

Somehow the yard #2 is looking OK after sitting next to the mite bomb unit #4 through the season.
It maybe (partially) due to mite-infested unit #4 being taken away in late October (combined into #8 on a different yard). Though it was so late in season - I doubt it made much different (bees did not fly much).

Of course, with open mating of the queens, nothing is exact science either.


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## msl

> There was no robbing either - I did a good job to prevent any robbing whatsoever.


screens?
passive robbing is a real thing, as is uncontested robing as things get more terminal.. it very often fools people
when you look at seeley 2019 there was zero hive entrance aggression seen till 9/21 and at that point a lot of mites had already been transferred, form 8/20 on 32+% of the bees seen at the entrance of the mite bomb hives were from the other hives (light vs dark bees) but no entrance aggression was seen at the time
and obvious robbing was not observed till 9/26


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## GregB

msl said:


> screens?
> passive robbing is a real thing,


My entrances are minimal at all times anyway.
And as soon as I sense/know a danger, I tape them in regardless and pretty brutally.
Weak units/mite bombs get taped in by default and re-taped over and over.
I stopped using the screens since a couple of seasons ago - after I learned to tape or paper-plug my hives (and have been ranting about it too). Below is a pic of #1 unit - paper taped (from last season, but shows well my ways).

The screens are a short-term gimmick.
Everyone (robbers included) learn how to work them; all the while the real entrances are NOT reduced by default (because the entrance is behind the screen is deemed as safe - LOL). Properly both screen entrance and the entrance behind the screen must the reduced to a squeeze to be effective (but then it is a bit of a maintenance hassle).

The real deal is still to reduce the entrance to less than a bee (that right - less than a bee); even behind a screen, if use the screens.

in short term the plug/tape creates a congestion and agitates the bees - a good thing (an immediate fix)
in longer term, this is letting the bees to unplug themselves only to the size they have the ability to do.
Strong hives will unplug themselves big enough; weak hives will only unplug themselves just a little.

With the congestion, foreign bees have less of a chance to squeeze by.
With a wide open entrance behind a screen - not a problem to walk right in.

This being said - of course, I did not do any significant measurements - so I will not publish a paper on my hacks. LOL!
On the other hand, Seeley could be a bit more inventive and use few simple life hacks here and there (and measure IF they are actually working or not, being a scientist).


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## GregB

The real deal, MSL, I suspect - the mite count #s in a hive AFTER a significant brood break will be like a half-sine graph.
Picture the half-sine graph.
The period of the graph frequency will correlate to the mite repro cycle.
See what I mean?

Google - "half sine graph" to visualize what I mean.

In other words, after a significant brood break, the mite counts will have the highs and the lows - these will occur periodically.

Reason:

for a long enough period nearly ALL the mites in the colony will be phoretic (high count)
when finally the brood becomes available (first generation after the new queen intro) - nearly ALL mites will be in the brood (low count)
as the first generation of the bees come out in 3 weeks - a new generation of the phoretic mites will flood the hive (high count again);
these modulations will occurs for a certain period but over time will spread/smooth out
Over time, the highs and the lows will gradually smooth out; the modulation will be less and less obvious.

But the first 1-2 month after the brood break, the half-sine model should work I think.
One very well can hit a mite low and wrongly conclude to have a low mite count due to this modulation.

The actual dynamics of the process over time I don't know - someone like Seeley should study and write a paper (IF not already). 

This is my theory about the real issue (totally speculative and no factual support).
Now, this scenario could very well be my case.


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## GregB

I still did not harvest much of any 2020 crop. That will be a winter project.
But here is sample of the 2019 crop as of this writing - a beauty.
This demo shows very well how different small batch honeys are - including a sample that stays 100% liquid into the second year now. 
This is like box of chocolates as you never know what you gonna get.

My favorites are natural creamed honeys though - some of those smaller and darker jars are like that - perfect creamed honey with unique flavors. Never understood people running about with "how to" make creamed honey. I simply press it and let it rest some months - here is your creamed honey.


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## Litsinger

GregV:

Finally got a chance to catch-up on your updates. I hope you and your family had a great Thanksgiving.

Maybe I am missing something, but am I correct in assuming that you only took mite counts on October 13th? 

Thus, when evaluating the stock over Thanksgiving are you assuming mite incursions based on variable(s) other than a contemporary mite wash/drop (i.e. cluster size, perforated cappings, frass or some other factors)?

You may have already covered this, but is your purchased breeder queen (#5) of bona fide Primorski stock? If so, is it possible that this may have something to do with the smaller clusters found in her daughter colonies (i.e. 2, 3 and 6)?


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> ..am I correct in assuming that you only took mite counts on October 13th?
> 
> Thus, when evaluating the stock over Thanksgiving are you assuming mite incursions based on variable(s) other than a contemporary mite wash/drop (i.e. cluster size, perforated cappings, frass or some other factors)?
> 
> You may have already covered this, but is your purchased breeder queen (#5) of bona fide Primorski stock? If so, is it possible that this may have something to do with the smaller clusters found in her daughter colonies (i.e. 2, 3 and 6)?


Hey Russ,

I reported on October 13 but the actual counting activity took me about a week (not done all at once).
Pretty much weeks 1 and 2 of October when I counted.

I did some spot observations prior to the T-Giving day.
But on the T-Giving I did the comprehensive round about across all the yards I have (just a convenient timing).
I don't really follow any hard regiment.
Some hives (dead or mostly dead) I check more thoroughly to see what did them in - pretty much it is a classic mite story in late fall - presence of the mite-injured brood (never hatched) is a typical indicator.
Other hives I check very superficially - a cluster on 6-7 frames at this time is very a good sign as-is and does not need much more disturbing.

The #5 is of unclear origin.
I would not call it Primorski stock.
It originates from that breeder in the Olympic peninsula, WA who started from some forest feral stock (I have a link few pages back).

#2 and #3, I suspect, have had issues where these queens were plugged into colonies that had too much mite load.
#2 was beyond sustainable and is now terminated.
#3 is of critically small size and will require heating to survive (which I will do).
So I theorize above as how my low mite counts were misleading maybe.

#5 (mother) and #6 are of smallish size.
In general these are bees of Northern traits I can tell - conservative.

So - I see a real benefit in a one-time OA treatment of a colony that is to receive a promising queen.
For sure I had a chance to apply OA to #2 as there was a long brood-less window there.
Also there was an opportunity to apply OA in #6.

Going forward, I am thinking I should do the OA when presented a chance to do it - so to not be wasting promising queens over and over and over. The promising queens are not able to turn infested colonies around, I had this issue happening many times over. This season, the apparent low mite counts in #2 and #3 fooled me.

I am now trending to think that the phoretic mite count (if done consistently every X days - e.g. once per week) will show that there is some variable half-sine function is describing the phoretic population in many instances.

And thus - with a single counting event - you are prone to hit a high or the low or some slope (trending up or down) of the sinusoid function and totally mis-read the situation.


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## GregB

Thinking - a low mite count needs a double/triple check to follow up and confirm.
We really want to hit the high and that will tell a better story.
High-high is bad and needs no confirmation.
Low-high is good ( but needs to be re-confirmed).


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## msl

GregV said:


> am now trending to think that the phoretic mite count (if done consistently every X days - e.g. once per week) will show that there is some variable half-sine function is describing the phoretic population in many instances.


 but we aren't seeing that happen in the studies that have done so IE mite drop Archives - Scientific Beekeeping









to your earlier point.. this isn't after a hard brood break, but suggests that instead of excessive post break montering (ie once a week) a pre break count (even a single one) would give you a reltalitvarly stable and meaningful number.


GregV said:


> Going forward, I am thinking I should do the OA when presented a chance to do it - so to not be wasting promising queens over and over and over. The promising queens are not able to turn infested colonies around,


It sounds like a plan... my questions/thoughts as how it fits with in your scope and goals
#1 how do you manage OA "contamination" on a treated nuc, marked combs in the nuc that are never used for your consumption of "clean" hive products?
#2 If you don't hit every nuc with OA to get an even start, how can you tell a promising from non promising queen?
#3 beekeeping is seldom about being "presented a chance" to do something and more about creating it


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## GregB

All good comments and questions.
In any case, I will make my mind in spring about how to proceed.
Some minimal testing is OK with me so to have some idea what I have on hand and what is worth saving.

On the other hand if the testing is way OFF target, such testing is meaningless - either get it right OR don't waste the time.

On the other hand yet, getting into an intensive program is getting way out of my original project - I need to review my strategic goals.

The same about the OA contamination issue.
I don't want to worry about and so far I have been honest with myself.
In the final end, for me this is still about food more than anything else.


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## GregB

msl said:


> but we aren't seeing that happen in the studies that have done so IE mite drop Archives - Scientific Beekeeping


Regarding this, I don't see the history of the exact colonies being tested.
In fact, is it even specified?

Added: 
Randy is in Cali and is ahead of WI by few months even by general calendar;
Even the general beekeeping cycle is not compatible.
Toss into it the specifics (e.g. exact timing of the counting after a hard break) - talking apples and oranges more than likely.

In my examples, the #2 was made queen right sometimes in August (after I ran them queen-less through the entire July).
#2 got the first brood going sometimes in mid-August or later - after about a month of brood-less - due to queen raising projects. This is one example of where I could see bouncing mite counts (in retrospect).


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## GregB

GregV said:


> So - I see a real benefit in a one-time OA treatment of a colony that is to receive a promising queen.
> For sure I had a chance to apply OA to #2 as there was a long brood-less window there.
> Also there was an opportunity to apply OA in #6.


Thought about this for a while...

Actually, just as well test *the brood *for mites AND destroy *the first round of capped brood* after the brood break IF high infestation of brood is found (or even regardless of the brood infestation).
IF the infestation visibly is high, this brood is mostly compromised anyway - not much lost with just destroying it (press it for food supplement - a double-whammy).

The potential OA contamination issue solved.

PS: this kinda brings a question - what is a proper method of mite testing and counting in the brood?


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> The #5 is of unclear origin.
> I would not call it Primorski stock.
> It originates from that breeder in the Olympic peninsula, WA who started from some forest feral stock (I have a link few pages back).


My apologies, GregV. You did address this and I forgot about it. I looked at the Olympic Wilderness Apiary website and came across their FAQ's and History which address the suspected origin of the feral survivors which serve as their base stock and subsequent genetic introductions to the program (but you know all this already):






F.A.Q. – Olympic Wilderness Apiary







wildernessbees.com









History – Olympic Wilderness Apiary







wildernessbees.com





Hopefully this line proves to be a real winner for you- I'm going to have to think on your phoretic mite theory a bit more. One thing seems plain, there appears to be a genetic component to the relative attractiveness of mites to practice phoresy versus enter brood cells and subsequently reproduce successfully- thus even the mite wash (in and of itself) does not tell us the whole story about mite reproductive success in the colony.

Best of success with your overwintering efforts.

Russ


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## GregB

Unfortunately, what left of the #2 would not join the #3 and instead just froze a frame over.
I brushed them off and called the project done.

Also I found the frozen #2 queen and took her in, so to drop into alcohol.
Well, the queen was laying on the table and, darn, she woke up in few minutes and was quite active!
At that point I was not sure what to do with her, took to the colony #3 and dropped her between the frames (likely to her end).
I guess in future, IF I find any apparently frozen clusters of any worth, I will shake them into a foam mating nuc and take home for possible revival.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Well, the queen was laying on the table and, darn, she woke up in few minutes and was quite active!


Well! So I suppose as Miracle Max famously noted in Princess Bride, one can really be mostly dead:


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## msl

GregV said:


> The potential OA contamination issue solved.


Much more in line with your program goles...!! In all honesty I think the OA would be much better in terms giveing the queens a fair shake and running a low instistive program, But I wanted to bring up the trade off, I don't see any possible contamination as an issue, but I don't eat hive products like you either!!! 
and while your eating it so its not going to waist, I think the costs of jettisoning that much brood are high and may critically hamper progress, and you still have the phoretic mite wild card. ANd if you willing to sacrifice the drawn comb by pressing it, why not just mark, later place about an excluder and remove when empty the 2-3 combs used to start the nuc, ?



GregV said:


> PS: this kinda brings a question - what is a proper method of mite testing and counting in the brood?





https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.3896/IBRA.1.52.1.09


page 12
depending on who you talk to its 100, 200, 300 cells ....at that point you minds well do a VSH assasy
My sense is your over thinking things and adding lots of work that will have dubuis results.
While the seeley 5% (or 10, or what ever) may work for a production hive, or a started swarm that has grown out, your playing a lot of bust them up.. As in your #2 example your not going to know anything about that queens reatiance till june next year!!!... its like 7 or more weeks from laying to be able to do a VSH assasy, other traits may be longer (IE MBB guard bees groom off incoming mites). At that point I may be a smart move to flat line the mite level as watch her progress... A note on that... the colony needs to be unmolested... maybe a single spring split as standard overwintered management... but you need to let the mite levels progress naturally to see if she is the real deal..

Another (tho a bit unrelated) thought is to start pushing your biotech methods further.. try worker comb traping on new queens (or as a post flow knock down)... I haven't done it, but I have this thought in my head about setting up a queen excluder panel or 2 and an entrance reducer so the queen is held on one comb, can go out to mate if you placing cells etc...Randy suggests a 66% mite removal rate 



 which is fairly powerful in terms of CF, weather its enuffin your area is the big question ....


your skills and education have grown greatly in the last 2 years, At some point you may need to make some adjustments so that you have spring resources to work with, out crossing imported lines with the local stock and then resleting for what works locally. To make any progress (and to make things less work) having corhorts of the same developmental stage ie spring and summer nucs are very handy indeed


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## GregB

msl said:


> I think the costs of jettisoning that much brood are high and may critically hamper progress,


Well, ideally the brood must be checked before this costly decision.
Clearly, if the sample is like this (see pic) - it is not worth saving (in fact, you DON'T want this brood and the damaged bees in your hive).
You are better off culling this damaged brood and pressing it (at least something useful).

Blind removal of the first post-break brood may, indeed, be the most costly way (but the safest too).


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## GregB

msl said:


> your skills and education have grown greatly in the last 2 years


I don't know...
Anymore I don't think I know what the heck is going on.
Totally lost at times.

As far as the bee handling skills, I had enough of them since the teens...
I dropped out of the local club meetings after a couple of visits years ago.
Those turned out mostly about few local beekeepers marketing themselves to the newbies.
Trivial stuff not worth the time (unless you are to sell bees, consultation time, and your wares locally to the newbies - then, heck, yes! - LOL).

But this stuff is totally different.


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## msl

GregV said:


> I don't know...
> Anymore I don't think I know what the heck is going on.
> Totally lost at times.


That is a sign of growth!!!
(using "we" as in most back yard beekeepers)
When we started its was simple... the commercials lose bees cause they are "hard" on there bees, treat them nice in our back yard and we can save them.. Firm and fixed in our views, the internet has told us so and we firmly believe we are right and will prosper with out with out the 2 hour beekeeping class we may have taken 

After a few years, "reality" sets in... theses people who depend on their bees (often for generations) to feed an clothe their families are losing bees, what made us think we could just put them in our backyard and they would live fine?

once you start questioning everything we "knew" at the start (especially if we learned from a "guru" ) we start the learning curve to success.

As for clubs... yep good and bad... but the real problem with both them and the internet is the amount of 2-3 year beepeers who "know" everything and are spewing bad information.. the are the loudest and most vocal and convincing... compared to the " Anymore I don't think I know what the heck is going on." folks who have started learning... and by the time many have enuff years in to have learned good beekeeping they are tired of fighting the enthusiastic young voices and walk away (as many of our experienced beekeepers have done on BS) or say screw it, pay me for my time...


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## GregB

msl said:


> Anymore I don't think I know what the heck is going on.


I know. It really is the case.

Keep thinking back about Mel D. and his ways.
I really wish he systemically counted his mites and reported on the real situation vs. just theorizing along the lines as in "overloading the brood with mites" kills both brood and mites.
I am unconvinced.
Technically, after a long brood break - the mites should overwhelm the very first brood batch and kill it (and thus also kill themselves - *somehow*).
Well, my #2 case would be a classic case of that - and yet NOT the case.
I honestly hoped it would be a "classic" Mel D. case - the mites clearly had other ideas.

<OK, I deleted this part>


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## GregB

msl said:


> 2-3 year beepeers who "know" everything and are spewing bad information.. the are the loudest and most vocal and convincing.


It is also a problem with Sol. Parker's podcast.
It is nearly always a talk with some new beek.
I suggested to Sol. a couple of years ago to do "where are they now?" talks - you know, to revisit his TF guests and check how they are doing a couple of seasons later.
I even would not mind talking on his show again - never heard back.
Never see any revisits yet with the repeat guests (save for MB and Mike from UK, I think).
Now that is suspicious or what?
Well, maybe Sol. just forgot - but a great idea is being wasted, don't you think?


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## msl

GregV said:


> Well, my #2 case would be a classic case of that - and yet NOT the case.
> I honestly hoped it would be a "classic" Mel D. case - the mites clearly had other ideas.


My take on that is too little too late in the season for them to recover even if it did lower mite numbers


GregV said:


> I really wish he systemically counted his mites and reported on the real situation vs. just theorizing along the lines as in "overloading the brood with mites" kills both brood and mites.
> I am unconvinced.


As am I, I don't think the idea has ever been documented with scientific scrunty, or any scrunty for that mater
if you remember a few years back (around 2017...pre randy's calculator) I crunched the numbers as saw OTS "should" worked just fine without the supposed "overload" effect
















In my mind OTS works 1st and for most by starting before the mite load gets high in the spring, the brood break (as seen in pinched queen) has an impact, but the real magic is dividing the mite load 4 ways amongst 4 laying queens, in effect lowering the mite infestation by 75%
right is total mite load growth, left is what a wash would look like at the end if 66% of the mites were in the brood with a hive pop of 40,000 bees
but the growth may be too high in warmer areas so if we throw in the second OST as prescribed we see that have having a very real chance of surviving.. the ots for honey....not so much








Far from a perfect model but shows the OTS concept is realistic, especially in a northern location with less mouths of brood rearing, and better chance of the honeycolony collapsing after flight weather..



GregV said:


> but a great idea is being wasted, don't you think?


yep... but he would have to start with his recent 100% loss.. and that realy could skew his sub 5% average losses he always talks about.. %1 losses for 9 years and 1 year of 100% would be a 10% average ;loss  
but like the mainstream media, the truth doesn't sell, telling people what they want to hear or already believe does.


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## GregB

GregV said:


> The real deal, MSL, I suspect - the mite count #s in a hive AFTER a significant brood break will be like a half-sine graph.
> Picture the half-sine graph.
> The period of the graph frequency will correlate to the mite repro cycle.
> See what I mean?
> 
> Google - "half sine graph" to visualize what I mean.


Hey, I need to apologize for my poor high-school trig (used to be great at it, but mostly forgot by now).
This is really more like a shifted *half-cosine function* (depending how to define the origin, be technical)!

Anyway, here is the visualization of the idea why withing a certain window after a hard brood break, the mite counts may produce false lows


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## msl

ya, I got you from the get go... its going to be like a pendulum with each swing getting less till its centered by the mites vairbuilty in days re entering cells.


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## William Bagwell

GregV said:


> Hey, I need to apologize for my poor high-school trig (used to be great at it, but mostly forgot by now).
> This is really more like a shifted *half-cosine function* (depending how to define the origin, be technical)!


No need to apologize... Thanks for bringing this up again! Intended to reply earlier but lost which thread it was in Sticky board enthusiast here and was checking (5 of 7) almost every day back in August then kind of quit. Due to some robbing recently moved two nucs in front of the house away from the bigger hives. One has an inspection board so will make an effort to check it every day this winter and watch for signs of mite cycles. Assuming it is a cold enough winter to have a true brood break.


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## msl

William Bagwell said:


> One has an inspection board so will make an effort to check it every day this winter and watch for signs of mite cycles.


I would argue to stay warm inside and just read your tea leaves after your done drinking it.
going back to post 875 
grafts are from mite drop Archives - Scientific Beekeeping
same hives and date range


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## GregB

William Bagwell said:


> No need to apologize...


Anyway, this proposed counting timing (IF works) should only work 1)during relatively high mite times (typically summer/fall) and 2)after hard breaks that force the 100% phoretic mite cases (e.g. natural swarms, shook swarms, forced long queen-less breaks, etc) and 3)for short time only e.g. days before 9-10 and between 24-26 should produce the most accurate mite counts per the picture above; other days should be avoided from mite measuring.

This is because only in summer you CAN get significant highs/lows within just days due to periodic mite visibility fluctuations.
It is possible to have fluctuations from near zero to hundreds of mites and back down to zero within days - IF this model works. Now, this is very significant as one can totally miss the real mite situation.

During low mite season I would not bother with it for number of reasons, starting with the low mite population where the errors become huge - just one mite OFF in your winter count will mean huge consequences in summer (and you really need to shake/wash as MSL says - which are not very practical in winter).


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## Gray Goose

so Greg, 

with the "clean" hive for food concept and the wanting to minimize loss so you have bees to work with why not try:

Have some hives of stock, kept clean and healthy with OA to use with new queens/cells and get a better idea of how they do, from a known clean base. And have some clean hives for your food.

Simply Shake some bees into your foam mateing NUCs from the clean stock to give the new queen a try from a know base.

Keep a few hives with frames either marked or of a unique size for the family food bank. Can shake in bees and add a queen from a NUC to those as well.

Have a yard with treated bees mite free to use for what every you wish, keeping the frames and boxes there..

Seems to me there is a middle ground where you can have both,, to have your Bees survive to play with and clean food as well. 2-4 hive should be enough for food.
10 somewhere else to keep mite free would allow more trying of lines and queens, than starting from heavy loss each spring.

I have a yard where I OA spring and fall, and splits. never with supers on and never harvest from brood comb. And yards in production not treated.
your one deep comb program, has some build in challenges to do this but you could do different things at different yards. doing shook swarms for splits and food hives.

Keeping is about adaption sometimes... maybe in 5 years we/you have stock where you can go back to the current ways.
Perhaps open some doors. 

GG


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## GregB

Basically, GG, there is one inconvenience - need to diligently maintain two distinct groups of combs - clean vs. contaminated.
That accounting project alone is some hassle I'd rather avoid as in practice that will be PITA at times.

Granted I already pushed into a production my first vertical, multi-box hive that will be based on smaller frame - already talking more than one production frame sizing to manage about (compatible, but still not 100% so). Add to this dirty vs. clean - adds another dimension.

Meanwhile, it makes sense to re-investigate the true dangers of the OA and understand the truly harmful concentrations.
The thing is, in my house we routinely eat kale, Swiss chard, beats, spinach, stinging nettles.
With this in mind, my "concerns" over the OA-specific pollution may be inconsistent or outright silly.
Need to run some numbers and see for myself what makes logical sense (and what does not).

This is similar to use or not use the horseradish smoke (yes it is toxic, but to be truly concerned about it - consider how much of the same toxicity the smokers get). And so if you don't smoke tobacco, should you be concerned about smoking your bees with horseradish a couple of times. Anyway... These kinds of ideas.

Btw, the last season I did some shook swarms (virtually shook bees into an empty nuc box) and later used them to start new colonies. I sprayed them with water at that time (just too keep them less flighty). I like those shook swarms a lot as a way of splitting and will continue.

This is trivial - but spraying those exact loose bees in a box with OA solution while OFF the combs sounds stupid simple. It just now occurred to me.


----------



## GregB

Just as a separate post - last summer I used a plastic nuc box and a paper scoop (made from soy milk container) to transfer bees about as shook swarms.

During the warm season these can be used to very easily treat the bees - this is stupid simple.
You dump the bees into a box.
Spray them with OA and keep in the box few minutes (closed the lid for that).
Dump/scoop the bees into the target hive.
Done and clean.

A 5 gallon bucket with a lid should work just the same (good to have a perforated one for such projects).
Also some kind of a screen can be inserted at the bottom - to allow the mites to fall through while doing this.
So this is a pretty slick idea I think.


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## msl

GregV said:


> With this in mind, my "concerns" over the OA-specific pollution may be inconsistent or outright silly.


Perhaps, but only you can make that call
Here are the numbers for you.
a dribble max "dose" for a full sized hive is 1.75g, a nuc (as needed to clean start a QC) would be 0.3 to 0.5 of that depending on the size.
So a treatment for a full sized hive, if 100% of it went in to the hive products you harvest would= eating 180g of spinach (6.35oz), as noted, a nuc as a clean start as is under discussion would be less











GregV said:


> This is trivial - but spraying those exact loose bees in a box with OA solution while OFF the combs sounds stupid simple. It just now occurred to me.


Spraying is much ruffer on bees, and requires more safety gear (respirator)
OA in sugar syrup is driven by bee to bee contact and raply spreads from bee to bee and all hive surfaces https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4450/8/3/84/pdf and it takes a good bit of time (on the order of days) to take effect 
I don't see your proposed method changing the level of contamination, and quite possibly it having a negative effect on the treatment efficiency

my feeling is more work, more gear, no effect on the problem(contamination) your trying to solve 

hare is the label for spraying, underlining is mine 



> SPRAYING PACKAGE BEES
> Ensure bees are clustered before applying oxalic acid (for example store in cool dark location 24 hours before application).
> Spray broodless package bees with a 1:1 sugar:water solution at least 2 hours before spraying with oxalic acid. This allows bees to fill honey stomachs with sugar water reducing ingestion of oxalic acid.
> Mix a 2.8% oxalic acid solution by dissolving 35 g of Oxalic Acid Dihydrate in 1 liter of 1:1 sugar: water (weight:volume). Evenly apply 3.0 mL of 2.8% oxalic acid solution per 1,000 bees using a pump sprayer or battery powered sprayer (for example, a typical 2 lb package contains approximately 7,000 bees which requires 21 mL of solution). Apply solution evenly on both sides of the package.
> Store bees in a cool darkened room for 72 hours before hiving


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## GregB

Thanks for the ready info!
Who needs Google when you have MSL. 

No easy way out.


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## GregB

msl said:


> . try worker comb traping on new queens (or as a post flow knock down)... I haven't done it, but I have this thought in my head about setting up a queen excluder panel or 2 and an entrance reducer so the queen is held on one comb,


About this...

I am talking as of this writing with an older guy from Ukraine who routinely has been practicing queen confiners in his model.
In fact, I will be on his live talk channel pretty soon, hopefully.
He advocates for containing the queens for variety of reasons (including wintering in the cage), but not for the mite control just yet.
I mentioned him before under the topic of temporary queen containment.
His channel:


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBoOHddHX_Ui6pihnZuszew


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## Gray Goose

msl said:


> Perhaps, but only you can make that call
> Here are the numbers for you.
> a dribble max "dose" for a full sized hive is 1.75g, a nuc (as needed to clean start a QC) would be 0.3 to 0.5 of that depending on the size.
> So a treatment for a full sized hive, if 100% of it went in to the hive products you harvest would= eating 180g of spinach (6.35oz), as noted, a nuc as a clean start as is under discussion would be less
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spraying is much ruffer on bees, and requires more safety gear (respirator)
> OA in sugar syrup is driven by bee to bee contact and raply spreads from bee to bee and all hive surfaces https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4450/8/3/84/pdf and it takes a good bit of time (on the order of days) to take effect
> I don't see your proposed method changing the level of contamination, and quite possibly it having a negative effect on the treatment efficiency
> 
> my feeling is more work, more gear, no effect on the problem(contamination) your trying to solve
> 
> hare is the label for spraying, underlining is mine


somewhat my thoughts skip my Spinach, and parsley for the week and I could eat 5 combs from a NUC.

I often Have a wild idea and you need bees to proceed.
Pick a easy harvest frame size and never treat in that size, as they "die" harvest , shake in more..You said you have several, so it is not way out for new wooden ware.

Just tossing the idea on the table..

GG


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## farmer9989

GregV said:


> About this...
> 
> I am talking as of this writing with an older guy from Ukraine who routinely has been practicing queen confiners in his model.
> In fact, I will be on his live talk channel pretty soon, hopefully.
> He advocates for containing the queens for variety of reasons (including wintering in the cage), but not for the mite control just yet.
> I mentioned him before under the topic of temporary queen containment.
> His channel:
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBoOHddHX_Ui6pihnZuszew


ask him if he can get CC on his videos so we can listen


----------



## GregB

farmer9989 said:


> ask him if he can get CC on his videos so we can listen


Why, here (use English captions - use auto-translate feature):





Here, start at 4:00





Here - the entire vid about queen confiners:


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> I am talking as of this writing with an older guy from Ukraine who routinely has been practicing queen confiners in his model.
> *In fact, I will be on his live talk channel pretty soon, hopefully.*


Was on the talk last weekend (live Zello channel, technically).

When I told them about the Russian (Primorsky) bee works in the USA - I was met with a range responses anywhere from disbelieving and accusing me of talking bulls**** to a total surprise and asking for more information.
But the general trend was, indeed, of me talking "bull" (because "the Primorsky bees have no resistance" - end of story).
Me coming from the USA also did not help - the animosity is there.
There were even comments along the line - "the americans steal our bee and then try to sell it back to us for a triple margin". Nothing new there.

Regrettably, but that particular beek population is decades behind in terms of current understanding of the varroa resistance - for ~99% there is no such thing as varroa resistance. It is for shame because in some other regards these beeks are simply ingenious.

Even the lead person of that particular group questioned my talk about needing to measure the individual colony mite levels for selection needs - he called it non-sense because "90% of the mite are in the brood anyway" (I was not ready to counter that point and just let it go).

But also this affirms the point that every individual (or a group of individuals) has weak and strong sides - nothing new either. Information exchange is the top priority - as long as the individuals are open-minded enough.

In general I was disappointed with the talk.


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## msl

I would say.... with out the selective breeding (II)for mite counts there isn't enuff mite resistance in the Primorsky original stock that your going to be able to tell a difference with out taking counts....
so you don't see a difference, and they die, so they are not resticant to them

ie


> At the end of the honey production season, daughters of Russian queens selected as breeders had a 4.1% worker brood infestation, daughters of Russian queens not selected as breeders had a 7.1% worker infestation and domestic colonies had a 9.3% infestation, suggesting the resistance was heritable.





Publication : USDA ARS


ther imported a few hundr, chose the top 40 as breeders... but the what was left had daughters were only slightly better then commercial bees... you not going to tell the difference between 7.1 and 9.3 brood infestion eyeballing it ... and when then mite bomb out in the 2nd year they take the good with them as well.. so unless you look for it, your not going to see resistance, just bees the die without treatment dosn't mean they are not resticant

Seem like these guys felt the Primorsky region treats.. I realy wonder what is realy going on there out side of the hype... what does the advrage commercial keeper do


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## GregB

msl said:


> Seem like these guys felt the Primorsky region treats.. I realy wonder what is realy going on there out side of the hype... what does the advrage commercial keeper do


Average guy in the Primorsky region is told the same - treat, treat and treat.

There are few Primorsky queen breeders who try to advertise elevated resistance - but they have little credibility (because you know - they *sell *queens). I found some sources that hint at that - the elevated resistance.

Let me mention that most locals in the Primorsky region have no clue about the differences between the A. Mellifera and A. Cerana. There were comments of those terrible "Chinese wax bees" that move into the old equipment, hot as hell, fly just above freezing - very hardy, and make no honey - just some wild, worthless honeybees per some local commentary.
For sure, Varroa cross-pollination is going rampant in the region, I can tell from such talks.
So yes, without selection (which is predicated on mite level monitoring) and with expert-prescribed carpet treatments - no appreciable resistance will they find.


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## msl

so that begs the question, what was the region like 25 years ago when the USDA started peeking around?
o was Primorsky a treatment free haven back in the day... or was it less treatments..

what changed? was it the push to use chemicals to be more productive, or was it the virus slow and steady march to becoming more virulent like we have seen here... every few years the treatment thresholds get lower as the viruses get worse and it takes less and less mites to kill a hive


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## GregB

msl said:


> o was Primorsky a treatment free haven back in the day... or was it less treatments..


Something to dig about.
Тhe AM has been in the region for ~*150 years (1870 is good reference point) - *and has been coexisting with AC all this time.
Varroa spp was officially identified in the region in 1942 on AC.
Sometimes in the 1960s Varroa was officially identified to be residing on AM - unclear to me *when and where exactly*.

So, it is reasonable to assume Varroa has been residing on AM in the Primorsky region well before 1960s and before even 1940s (and maybe even before 1900s!)

Clearly, the "treatments" as we know them now have been in use for much shorter time-frame.
No one reported (per my searches) of any massive AM die-offs in the Primorsky region - it is always "somewhere".
What is the deal?

PS: flipping through the old beekeeping magazines of the USSR of that era (1950s/1960s) - too much propaganda about the state-run bee yards putting out tonnes and tonnes of honey;
at that time the local administrations would be really nervous putting out information about massive bee colony deaths (would have made them look bad - the consequences at the time could be worse than the bad looks)

Anyways, since I found excellent archives of the old periodicals of that time, will flip through and see - easy to do/fun to read.

Here is a full set of the USSR Beekeeping magazine for the 1952 (every year is available too).








"Пчеловодство" за 1952 год. - Журналы СССР


Здесь можно скачать журналы до 1991 года.




sites.google.com





PSS: 
found the first mention of the Varroa in the USSR Beekeeping mag, issue 6/1968 (page 17)






Пчеловодство_1968_06.djvu







docviewer.yandex.ru





the article documents the wide infection of Varroa in the Primorsky region for the* "recent years" (whatever that means)*
the article is a full-blown instruction how to control the varroa using veterinarian grade phenothiazine
so clearly, the mite investigation was already in works for some years by 1968


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## msl

the 1950s ones are great... white lab coats, no protective gear, such idelic beekeeping.. got to love the propaganda

I guess its safe to say that the legend of Primorsky beekeepers just not treating and being fine is just that... a legend. 
but what was done still makes sense, the best place to look for adaption is to go to were the exposure has been the longest... the USDA put the jump some were between 1950s and 1890s


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## GregB

msl said:


> I guess its safe to say that the legend of Primorsky beekeepers just not treating and being fine is just that... a legend.


From magazine scanning for Varroa and Primorsky in the article titles, I am getting a sniff of some major issues happening in the 50s in the large state-run yards (but either not understood yet or not formally reported). Will post some artifacts later.

50s and 60s in the USSR are very different.
60s was the era of liberal moves (post-Stalin and post-Chruchev) - the soviet jazz truly started then and even was legal at the time.
So - the massive beek collapse cases in the 60 would not result in as severe flogging for the local admins, as in the 50s. In the 50s everything had to be "superb" or else. And the fake science (Lysenkoism - Wikipedia) was strong.

Would not be surprised if the Varroa issues were well under the way in the 50s already (unreported).


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## GregB

msl said:


> but what was done still makes sense, the best place to look for adaption is to go to were the exposure has been the longest... the USDA put the jump some were between 1950s and 1890s


Certainly so.


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## msl

What makes that instering is varron made the jump in japan at about the same time


> Varroa jacobsoni was described in Japan in 1909 by Suzuki11 , although not by that name. It was first photographed in Japan in 1957 on Apis cerana by Obata at Tamagawa University, and in the same year it was found on Apis mellifera colonies by Kishida. For reasons that have not been fully established, Varroa started to increase epidemically on Apis mellifera at about that time, and caused much damage to bees in the 1960





https://www.evacranetrust.org/uploads/document/767e345ca3dddb794878e3716b7a24533acfdfbf.pdf



European bees were introduced to japan in 1876.. makes one wonder what took so long... or more to the point WHY it happened when it did...


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## GregB

Snippet from the issue 06/1955 regarding beekeeping status in the Primorsky region.

There is some bashing of the local veterinarians who are NOT doing good job in the beekeeping area (some names are called - bad news for the individuals mentioned).

My underlining says:
........ conditions of the beekeeping are worsening.....
.....many bee yards (i. e. state run yards) have lack of hygiene and *bee disease cases are increasing that was not the case before*........


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## GregB

A snippet from 08/1957 issue (Primorsky related article).
Again bashing of the local admins.
Pretty common finger pointing during the time.

Says:
....in the collective farm (named after Stalin!) *650 colonies perished* with the appraised loss over 150K rubles....
....Due to poor management beekeeping operations are not generating much profit or even losing money...

Could be related to Varroa.
Pretty massive wipe out - 650 units.


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## Litsinger

GregV:

Interesting discussion. I've enjoyed reading the back-and-forth. Another consideration came to mind as I am reading through this, and that is the opposing forces of outbreeding depression and focused selection. While I don't know the importation dynamic of genetic material into the Primorski region of Russia specifically, I noted in this article that in 2018 '_Russia’s import of live bees is almost 5 times as much as its export_.' Thus, it is possible that beekeepers in this region are dealing with similar difficulties regarding a continued import of non-resistant genetics which seek to attenuate more widespread resistance expression.

We know from numerous studies done as extensions of the USDA effort that non-targeted genetic hybrids express resistance that is, ..._inter-mediate to that of pure ARS Russian and commercial stocks__._

Finally, I think it is hard to appreciate the level of diligence exercised in the selection efforts by the USDA ARS until one reviews the chronology. In short, the 2010 staggered release of three genetic lines represented the culmination of sixteen years of extensive evaluation and winnowing to arrive at the product that we here stateside refer to as 'Russian Bees'.


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## GregB

So indeed the year *1964 *was when administration officially proclaimed the mite presense in the Primorsky region.
Notice that this reporting always concerned only the *state-operated beekeeping* - subject to regulation, monitoring AND to local and regional political pressures.
Private beekeeping was always under the radar (still is) - importantly!
Anyways, the below does not disagree that the mites have been in the region since at least 1950s.

From the issue 9, 1971.
My brief and free hand extracts:

in* 1964* a massive mite infection was registered in one of the region state yards
during 1966-1970 investigations it was determined that the mite is widely distributed in the region (and the distribution continues growing)
according to well regarded scientists of the time (professor Poltev) there were no observation of the mites in the area and the ideas of the mite being present in the area before are not founded (which I will call bull****)
--- the region is as large as 2-3 states of WI with heavily forested and mountainous landscape, and the unregulated beekeeping is all over the place (and this is not even considering China just across the very long border - bees don't know of the borders, obviously)

still, the article states (this is 1971) that the mite must have been around for at least 10-15 years
currently (i. e. 1971) the hobbyist bee yards are the main sources of mite; the small scale beekeeping is very popular, unregulated and not monitored;
the small scale beekeepers regularly migrate their bees between different pastures to maximize the production


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## GregB

Issue 7/1960.
Several pages of the Beekeeping mag issue (starting with the *front page*!) are dedicated to a propagandist letter of the regional Communist administration directed to the beekeepers of the Primorsky region.

The point of the write up seems to be to demonstrate how the local admins' show their leadership when the regional beekeeping is struggling with some recent and significant issues. Basically the local admins are covering their butts by this published piece.

The whole 5 page article is simply about:

- Look how great some of the state-owned beekeeping yards are doing (tons of examples listed)

-- (remember - many, if not most, great examples of the Soviet era achievements were fake and fabricated examples to be used for propaganda needs)

Yet some other yards are doing terribly (the article continues)
Everyone must look at the better examples and promise to improve their honey and wax production!
The End.

The issue to be addressed was documented briefly within the article (my selection):

*starting 1951 and into the 1959, *bee colony inventory in one district dropped *3.5 times*
over the same time, in two other districts the colony inventory dropped *2.5 times*
overall, many bee yards sharply dropped their honey production (due to local mismanagement as the "letter" is alleging)

So, "Scotty, we have a problem" - bees are dying in great numbers, honey production is in the dumps, and the local mismanagement must be the root cause.

That is what what the "letter" is about - something bad is going on in the Primorsky region, but of course, the local apparatchiks are looking to cover their arses and looking for some easy blame targets (mismanagement is easy enough).
Now and then, forget science and read the politics of the day to see what is really going on.
LOL


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## msl

Given the political situation, its no surprise they turned to treatment enmass..
bit of an eye opener
The truth seem to be a far cry from the internet legend of turn of the century peasant small scale beekeepers too poor or undereducated to treat, who took some losses and then everything was fine and dandy do to natural selection.
The propaganda legend of " The big strong russian bear bee, sharpened by adversity and hostile climate will crush varroa like tiny egg, unlike puny pampered western bee " 😝 repeated by another generation for completely different reasons.
given the jump to AM happened in Primorsky and japan at more or less the same time, it makes you wonder if it was a single source, not two separate events


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## GregB

msl said:


> Given the political situation, its no surprise they turned to treatment enmass..
> bit of an eye opener
> The truth seem to be a far cry from the internet legend of turn of the century peasant small scale beekeepers too poor or undereducated to treat, who took some losses and then everything was fine and dandy do to natural selection.


Well, actually we observe *two *beekeeping population in the USSR of the age:

state-operated beekeeping shops - large in scale, concentrated, regulated and monitored AND carpet treated as soon as the treatments were found
privately-operated shops - small in scale, widely distributed, unregulated, not-monitored, undocumented AND anywhere from carpet-treated to treatment-free (a suburban yard to a remote forest opening in some highland).

So the private shops were claimed to be the culprit in the mite distribution - partly and logically true, and partly just an easy blame target by the local beekeeping administrators who had their jobs to loose.

The success differences of treatment-free vs. carpet-treated vs. anything in between are not clear, but very much case by a case (e. g. sometimes the treatment itself would kill the bees before the mites would).

So I am thinking that private, unregulated small shops were both mite generators but also the source of some sort of random natural resistance. Even now, in the age of YT, many YT content providers swear by horseradish and nothing else and it works for them.

The large scale operators (state-run back then/private now) can not really afford to be loosing hundreds of colonies in a snap - they just choose to carpet-treat. For sure in Primorsky region they - the large-scale operatores started on the treatments ASAP (70s) - they had their honey production benchmarks to hit.


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## msl

It does beg the question, who did the USDA source the grentnics from ?


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## GregB

msl said:


> It does beg the question, who did the USDA source the grentnics from ?


By late 90s/early 2000s no state-operated yards left.
Pretty much everything is private now - both large and small.
The private operators are free to do as they wish.

So the USDA got the queens from a variety of private cooperating sources.



> In late June of 1997, a collection of 100 Primorsky honey bee queens was made and brought to the U.S. for further research. These queens were obtained from *16 separate beekeepers* from a variety of places in the Primorsky.





Importation of Russian Honey Bees : USDA ARS



Geographically speaking, that got the bees from all main bee populations - sea-side (marine climate), lowlands (steppes), highlands (forests).
The are three main bee populations per my readings - each one is unique in some way.
The highland bees are generally more dark/grey.
The lowland bees are generally more yellow (GV: removed "sea-side bees").
(GV - correction)The sea-side bees in at least on locality (Lazovsky district) are rather distinctly uniform grey - I just double-checked my source.

Remember - all these bees are mutts sourced from the Ukrainian/Russian AMm, Ligustica, Caucasions and, surely, other undocumented sources.

From readings I recall bees from the Lazovsky district (see #22 sea-side on the left map) have shown more resistance than others.
Could be wrong, don't remember where. Just something about this specific population is different.


----------



## GregB

I added another map that shows the main Eco-systems of the Primorsky region - sea-side (blue), forested highlands (green), steppe lowlands (beige), southern (pink). The main bee populations (per my readings) seem to be driven by these local ecosystems as the major external selection factors - so we have highland bees (green), sea-side bees (blue and pink) and lowland bees (beige).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Primorsky_Krai#/media/File:primorsky_krai_regions.png
The "green" and "beige" areas roughly correspond to the USDA Zone 4. The "blue" and "pink" are roughly USDA Zone 5. These Primorsky region zones match the WI USDA zones very closely - a curious fact worth mentioning. In general the Primorsky region and WI USA are very similar in the orientation to the big body of water too.

Now if we remember that the current Primorsky bees are a bag of chaotically mixed mutts (mellifera, macedonica, ligustica, caucasica, carpathica, and possibly others) - it makes sense that the ecology of the "green" region favors mellifera/caucasica traits but the "beige" region may favor the ligustica traits. So we have grey and yellow Primorsky bee groups.

Unsure what the sea-side bees would be - but per my sources, the bees from the Lazovsky sea-side district are distinct in their uniform grey exterior.

Also worth mentioning - the Primorsky bees are NOT only concentrated in the Primorsky region. Similar populations of bees are found to the North/North-West of the Primorsky region - in Habarovsky, Amursky and Chitinksy regions (and I imagine in bordering China regions!) - no one ever looked at them in the same varroa resistance context (not that I heard/read).
But those hybrid bee populations also exist and the picture is much bigger than is commonly spoken about. For scale, the Primorsky region proper (colored in red) is very similar to WI, USA by area - as an FYI.

OK now, take this mixed bag of mutts and drop them into the Baton Rouge, USA - and watch of the resulting mess.
Anyway..

Including the modified maps to see how the bees from all ecosystems were represented in the imported Primorsky queens.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> OK now, take this mixed bag of mutts and drop them into the Baton Rouge, USA - and watch of the resulting mess.


Great information, GregV. The maps, descriptions and the cross-reference to Wisconsin certainly aids in understanding the varied climate and genetic expressions from the region.

You've piqued my curiosity concerning your comment about the_ 'resulting mess'_. Are you speaking about the USDA ARS program in general, the results of the USDA Russian Queen lines in the US or something else?


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> You've piqued my curiosity concerning your comment about the_ 'resulting mess'_. Are you speaking about the USDA ARS program in general, the results of the USDA Russian Queen lines in the US or something else?


The resulting variability of the commercially deployed Russian bee.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> The resulting variability of the commercially deployed Russian bee.


Just playing Devil's Advocate- is there significant evidence that genetically-isolated USDA Russian source stock from the seventeen (17) different lines exhibit significant variability in regards to traits (particularly resistance)? It might certainly be out there and I am simply unaware of it.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Just playing Devil's Advocate- is there significant evidence that genetically-isolated USDA Russian source stock from the seventeen (17) different lines exhibit significant variability in regards to traits (particularly resistance)? It might certainly be out there and I am simply unaware of it.


I don't have a qualified answer, Russ.
Right here on BS, if your search and read of the "Russians" - there will be a wide array of descriptions of the Russians all over the board. Defensiveness trait for example - from Italian-like kittens to "mad dogs" (defensiveness has some positive correlation to the resistance, pretty sure).

Instead I will propose this;

you take a set of mutts from a 150-year random, unregulated hybridization program
place them under the strict control and strict selection for a short time (e.g. 20 years of USDA)
start commercially deploying the resulting stock - back into unregulated environment.

I propose that in very short time (3-5 years?) the select stock that was deployed commercially will show wide range of variability (back to the native Primorsky region variability and more). Factor in the unregulated hybridization on the ground in most places that we see (my backyard is a perfect case). We end up with some unpredictable mess on hands in a very short order where each trait (resistance included) will be all over the range (excellent to terrible).

If you have a degree of isolation or a strong self-sustaining feral local population (that complements the Russians!) - that maybe different.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> #3 - 13 (4-5%) - (F1 queen from #5) - Very weak on only 2-3 frames.


Dead.
It was worse than I thought; even a heater was useless (I ran it for a week).
Did not like the temperature readings.
Went and looked - gone.
The entire backyard this year is gone, regardless of the optimistic counts in two units (don't know what I was counting - some fake values).


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## msl

> I propose that in very short time (3-5 years?) the select stock that was deployed commercially will show wide range of variability (back to the native Primorsky region variability and more). Factor in the unregulated hybridization on the ground in most places that we see (my backyard is a perfect case). We end up with some unpredictable mess on hands in a very short order where each trait (resistance included) will be all over the range (excellent to terrible).


Of course, that is the way with bees!
with out a selective breeding program and mating control it goes a billion different ways.. of note the USDA russians are know for loss resistance in out crossing much faster then say VSH stock, one of the reason Sam Comfort drifted over to VSH from his russian (webster breeders) start.

in the "old" days is was quite common to replace queens after a few years with fresh stock from a breeder to maintain traits (gentleness, honey production, etc) we should expect no less with the trait of mite resistance
it was no big deal then... If your hive went hot or honey production slowed do to outcrossing you simply orderd new queens...
with resistance, if it fades and your antitreamts the hive dies, and (as show by seeley) likly takes a few more down with it.



> If you have a degree of isolation or a strong self-sustaining feral local population (that complements the Russians!) - that maybe different.


unlikly... its not just outcrossing, its the massive genetic recombination bees do Exceptionally high levels of recombination across the honey bee genome.

What holds the traits of ferals "stable" is the massive yearly death rate (2/3s) exerting selective pressure. 

The "mess" is caused when the beekeeper removes that pressure(ie a few draw combs dubbles a swarms survival rate) and does not replace it with a = to or greater than pressure.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV and MSL;

Thank you for the feedback.

I decided to get some feedback straight from the source, so I contacted Mr. Dan Conlon, current President of the Russian Honey Bee Breeders Association, Inc. He was very prompt and helpful in his replies and gave me permission to quote him.

I asked, _“Based on your experience with the current lines, is it safe to say that the lines on the whole exhibit wide trait variability, particularly as regards resistance?”_

He replied, _“The simple answer is that the original breeding lines were studied in Phase I, when the bee lab and beekeepers selected the best stock from 360 potential lines. This was boiled down to 42 breeding lines, and eventually 17 lines represented today. They have the most diverse genetics currently tracked in U.S. breeding stock. This makes our program unique in the world: bee lab testing and field data combined to select a better honeybee.

Our program is a selection program that continues to select for the most mite tolerant, disease resistant and best honey producing bees. RHBA is Phase II where we continue the selection process as a private association. The bee lab continues to be one of our members and continues to monitor our progress.

There is no easy answer to any attempts to improve honeybees. It takes time, expertise, and sometimes a bit of luck to make incremental advancements.”_

As a follow-up I asked, _“… if I bought a mated queen (or 20) from a Russian Queen Bee Breeder Association member, should there be an expectation that the resultant colony will express relatively consistent 'to-type' resistance and colony-level traits as outlined in the Breeder's Association guides?”_

He replied, _“It sounds like you are asking about what happens when we get outside our closed-mating program. Without having a fairly high and consistent number of drones, also meeting our standards, predictable traits can dilute quickly. We struggle with the non-members selling Russian bees as they are producing hybrids that do not always represent the traits we are seeing in our program. Genetically we have been successful in amplifying some of our original behavioral objectives, fixing them to future generations is still a one step forward - two steps back proposition. What I can say is that my bees survive New England winters, I regularly skip mite treatments, and they do produce honey. A far better management outcome then before I used Russian bees.

The RHBA mission is to improve the stock and preserve the genetics. This is one reason we do not aggressively promote selling Russian bees. Most of our members are focused on the breeding, not the business. I think that will happen once we are all satisfied with our progress, which is meeting the Phase II goals.”_

He followed-up by noting, _“The question of hybridization was tested by Lilia DeGuzman at the Baton Rouge Bee Lab. There is a published summary of the comparisons she did with commercially offered Russians and the RHBA stock. Pretty much found that hybrids varied greatly and the RHBA stock was the best at mite tolerance.”_

I have attached a PDF copy of the document he refers to- it was a presentation at the 2019 Apimondia and pages 13 – 15 specifically summarize the results of the comparative study.


----------



## GregB

Good job, Russ, doing some direct investigation!

Your findings just confirm what we discussed above - outside of very strict controlled environment we can not expect reliable replication of the same trait in long term.
I am not going to re-quote the supporting evidence - it is all there in your post.
One can stop right here:
_"..........17 lines represented today. They have *the most diverse genetics currently tracked in U.S. breeding stock*........."_

Basically, on the ground we are commonly dealing with uncontrolled sales and re-sales of some undocumented "Russian hybrids" from undocumented sources and have a mess of variability they produce. That alone produces unpredictable results.

Multiply that by the variability dumped on me by the legions of the "bee savers" who live in my suburban vicinity and keep buying the imported stocks annually (so they can "help saving the bees" or just having fun without any high claims).

It is really ugly - the biggest evil are those short-term "bee savers" that keep polluting the area and will dilute very quickly the best possible stock I may try to import. This is exactly the situation I have on my hands. My back porch being the most successful swarm trapping location in 2020 season - that tells you something. 

2 of 3 F1 daughters of my "breeder queen" died *BEFORE* any dark horse queens I got just by random swarm trapping.
Now that is ironic - not much of the predictability to speak of.
LOL

So that begs a question - is it worth buying and importing select stock into my particular area?
I think not - in my particular area it is not really worth trying to be selecting for any particular traits (e.g. resistance) - an impossible fit given the uncontrolled and massive importations.

It is either I need to start treating (hopefully following the intelligent IPM methods).

OR - just continue being a cynic bee swarm hunter and taking advantage of the free bees available annually for easy taking (and exploit that for the bee product production).
Heck, may even take on some bee/queen selling - as if selling "untreated, locally-mated bees" - LOL.
That would be bull***, but some locals do just that.

For sure, uncontrolled bee importation has one positive attribute - reliable availability of escaped swarms for easy taking.
So that is a silver lining as for me. Haha!

I guess we just keep toying around with the "citizen science" types of projects.
At least that is a cheap way to have fun and *might *actually produce something useful.


----------



## msl

good stuff russ



GregV said:


> So that begs a question - is it worth buying and importing select stock into my particular area?
> I think not - in my particular area it is not really worth trying to be selecting for any particular traits (e.g. resistance) - an impossible fit given the uncontrolled and massive importations.


The point of buying the select stock is its already been selected, you just propagate it.. after you lose the original source (or get to f-2 or what ever failure point) you get another to propagate from .. a bee genetics treadmill if you will... but that is the way for small scale.. Ie if your apple tree dies, you don't grow a new one form its seeds as the changes of geting something good are poor(massive genetic recombination), you buy a new one




GregV said:


> It is really ugly - the biggest evil are those short-term "bee savers" that keep polluting the area and will dilute very quickly the best possible stock I may try to import.





GregV said:


> OR - just continue being a cynic bee swarm hunter and taking advantage of the free bees available annually for easy taking





GregV said:


> For sure, uncontrolled bee importation has one positive attribute - reliable availability of escaped swarms for easy taking.


I am not sure how being imported has any bearing on swarm availability..
but I ask you this
if you are running the same genetics that is swarming out of the imported hives, how are you any less evil ?
If they are wrong for buying those queens and running them in their hives last year, how are you not wrong for catching them and using them this year? and then your complain about their drones when your throwing many of the same!!!



GregV said:


> Basically, on the ground we are commonly dealing with uncontrolled sales and re-sales of some undocumented "Russian hybrids" from undocumented sources and have a mess of variability they produce.


yep... like many small/medium operations.. getting Russian or any "named bee" (people are still selling MH even tho the university stoped producing breeder queens 12 years ago... and there is no breeding group with standards, like RHB) means they bought some stock a few years back (sometimes many years) and they are selling you the results of uncontrolled outcrossing to the point is just a name... its not the name, its the selection process of the breeder that will matter.



GregV said:


> It is either I need to start treating (hopefully following the intelligent IPM methods).


it has advantages in a selection program, going back to my apple example... IPM would allow you to get your numbers up, so you could plant more seeds and have a better chance of finding an apple you like, form there you graft off it and use the rest as rootstock, but queens aren't trees and only live a few years, so its a constant search for the next good apple.

swinging back around to this


GregV said:


> in my particular area it is not really worth trying to be selecting for any particular traits (e.g. resistance) - an impossible fit given the uncontrolled and massive importations.


Its not impossible at all( Instrumental Insemination) just outside your goal structure.
However there is a middle ground... drone holding and feeding hives to create saturation (might need IMP to insure quality drones ) and moonlight mateing..
It occurred to me about 6 months back (woke up in the middle of the night lol) that the origin of the micro nucs with labeled stands 



 may very well have been part of a moonlight mating program, or at least would fit right in with a small scale one..













Genetic Evaluation of a Novel System for Controlled Mating of the Honeybee, Apis mellifera


Abstract. Many apiculturally important traits of the honeybee have medium to high heritabilities and are therefore capable of strong response to selection. Howe




academic.oup.com




85% mating control aint bad


----------



## trishbookworm

Awww Greg, so sorry to hear that. I have a thought to share about your yard being hit hard... and mite resistance. 

I have 20 some odd colonies in the backyard, and for 4 summers now I have lost swarms, at least 2 and likely 6 some years. There are enough old trees around that a few likely found a hole. 

For the 2 years when I started using OAV exclusively over the winter, I found very low mites through the summer. But, by fall, _some _hives that had been "clean" suddenly had massive mite loads (judged by the dead mites falling post OAV treatment). Some stayed clean.

My conclusion is that these bees went and robbed dying colonies in fall, and brought back more than honey.

My assumption is that this trait is heritable, and if I had declined to use those queens the following year, and culled the drones, I may have reduced the frequency of this trait.

So.... it may be once a beeyard has been established, it is finally getting tested beyond what any hive can handle, if it goes robbing. Once a beeyard has lost swarms, over time those hive may collapse due to mites but then infect your beeyard. If your bees go robbing. 

In the early days of a beeyard being established, before these escaped swarms crash due to mites, it may be any hives with a robbing tendency aren't "tested" with a mite-filled colony. So you don't know if they rob or not - kinda hard to tell if the foragers are leaving the hive to rob.


----------



## trishbookworm

Also wanted to share - when bees that are Apis mellifera but of different races that have not been crossed in a long time are finally crossed, their F1 (daughters) and even F2 (granddaughters) are pretty hot. Brother Adam of Buckfast Bees documented this. He had Apis mellifera mellifera - German black bee, and was crossing with Italian bees (purebred, unlike ours in this country). Hot offspring. P 81 in Breeding the Honey Bee. 

Could be this explains why some Russian crosses are hot. If those daughters were "crossed" with gentle bees over 2 or 3 generations, this trait should fade. You'd want to surround those queens with drone-source colonies with "nice guys" though!


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> I am not sure how being imported has any bearing on swarm availability..


It is ALL about the importation *volume*, man!
Uncontrolled importation in volumes ==> lots of swarms.
That simple.


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## GregB

trishbookworm said:


> Awww Greg, so sorry to hear that. I have a thought to share about your yard being hit hard... and mite resistance.


Thanks.
Fortunately, I have 7 yards (6 are still afloat).
Distribution of the resources - one thing that I do.
Yes, it is a hassle and has inconveniences.


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## GregB

msl said:


> how are you not wrong for catching them and using them this year?


It is either me catching them OR someone else catching them OR the swarms entering some house wall (to be cut out by someone).
Let's call it a "community service".
Someone needs to do it.
Sounds pretty good.

And btw, at least I am trying to use the captured swarm material to create some "better material" from "better queens". Gotta have some resource hives to shake the bees from.
What else am I to do?
Not be catching swarms?
People do complain to our local bee forum, you know.
LOL


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> queens aren't trees and only live a few years, so its a constant search for the next good apple.


Exactly.
The very next good apple will only last a year or two (three IF lucky).

Also meaning, you have to really be buying the pre-selected good apples every 1-2 years - over and over, and over (because they do not last much longer).
Which makes little sense if you just want to have some honey for yourself - just keep catching free swarms of ANY origin every 1-2 years - over and over, and over.
No practical difference.

One need to do this as a full-time job and invest some time/resources, to be serious.
Well, not is going to happen with me - have many very real bills to pay every month.


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## GregB

msl said:


> Its not impossible at all( *Instrumental Insemination*) just outside your goal structure.


Exactly.
Talking expensive toys and significant commitment and significant training.
Not a practical solution for a suburban hobbyist.


----------



## msl

GregV said:


> It is ALL about the importation *volume*, man!
> Uncontrolled importation in volumes ==> lots of swarms.


I don't see how that any different (in terms of swarm volume) then if the bees were sourced locally



GregV said:


> And btw, at least I am trying to re-queen the captured swarm material to some "better material"





GregV said:


> One need to do this as a full-time job, to be serious. Well, not is going to happen with me - have many very real bills to pay.


but what will you requeen them with?
If you don't have the time/resources to find it (a honest evaluation most don't come to) , and if your not going to source improved stock... where does that leave you?

Its feeling like your labor investment is not providing enough of a ROI compared to your other clean food projects. 

Do you think its time to go full skep style? catch a swarm, don't split it, let it build, pinch the queen as the main flow comes to maximize harvest, take everything and press the brood, and then just catch a new swarm in the spring? no mess no stress, used to work for the Canadian beekeepers back when packages were cheap.


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## GregB

I actually have so much honey and bee bread now (after the three dead-outs - the back yard) - this will keep me busy for the rest of the winter just harvesting it all.

There is also plenty of resources scattered across the remaining yards - plenty for the next year projects.
So this model does work for me just fine - regardless of how many units still die or make it.
The expense this year was zero - bought a queen/sold two queens.
Bought some duct tape and staples, I guess.

This is a great model as is - on the bee product side.
There is nothing to change really.
Costs nothing anymore.
ROI balance sheet is looking better and better every year now - the tools have been bought and the hives built.
I need not much else at this point.

This is sustainable too - thanks to the "non-regulated bee importation" into my vicinity, for as along as it continues, there will always be free bees to pickup and exploit (some years more, some years less). The more they dump the bees in the area - the better. 
Any bees, whatever bees - does not matter.

Everything I listed is really that simple - catch swarms and exploit them and don't think too deep into it.

Now, the local, resistant bees - entirely different ball game.


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## GregB

Wanted to do this long since the last winter.
Well, a year has gone by.
Tonight I felt like doing it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Zootechnical method of varroosis control (translated by Greg V.)

(Petrov 1983, Pages 178 – 186, with omissions, comments, stylistic edits and few errors as I did not spend much time reviewing this - good enough!!!)​
<GV: Omitted history of introduction of Varroa to Bashkortostan and the initial attempts to control with acaricides and high temperature treatments>

… We set the goal of finding a method of controlling varroa so to free the bees of the mites and still preserve the brood for building the workforce for the main flow.

We developed a zootechnical method meeting the goal’s requirements. The basis of the method involves creation of brood-less colonies and usage of “trap-frames” with the brood for attracting female mites parasitizing the worker bees. These frames are then destroyed.

Preparation for the procedure we start in early spring, at once after setting the bees out of the wintering sheds. During the first spring check we evaluate the colonies an classify them into three groups according to their strength: Group I – strong, Group II – average, Group III – weak. <….>

By the start of the procedure we target to have 8-10 seams of bees (GV: presumably in the Group I). <….>

Before the start of the procedure we prepare remote yards at least 5 kilometers (GV: ~3 miles) away so that the bees will not return to the main base when moved (GV: main base = winter base). <….>

Work with the Group I begins in 15-20 days after the bees have been set out from the sheds and when the shade temperatures are not below 15C (we set out our bees from the sheds about 5-12th of April with the grounds still covered in snow).

We start with taking ALL brood frames (but one) from Group I and moving them to Groups II and III. The oldest capped brood (where the bees are already hatching) we move to Group III. Younger brood we move to Group II. Such moves allow to preserve the young brood from potential chilling in weak colonies. The only brood frame left in Colony I is one with 2-3 day old larvae, in the middle of the nest. This will be the “trap-frame” to attract the female mites.

To replace the remove frame, we insert frames with honey, bee bread, foundation according to the colony strength and needs. This is now a brood-less colony in the status of artificial swarm (similar to a fly-back split) with bees off various ages and they own original queen. Such colonies did not swarm per our experience (GV: during the given season).

All Group I colonies after the procedure we immediately move the remove yards (previously prepared).

After 6-8 days after the move we inspect the “trap-frames” in the Group I to evaluate the mite infestation. Highly infested frames we remove and destroy my melting them. The frames without high infestation we also remove and return to the main base; there we distribute them among Groups II and III accordingly.

With this, the mite control on the Group I is finished. These colonies are almost entirely free of the mites and need no further treatments until next season. Group I is able to build up for the main flow and will not swarm and only work left is to prepare this colonies for the main flow.

Work with the Group II starts in 10-12 days after the procedure with the Group I started. By now the group Group II colonies should be stronger due to their own brood production and also the brood donated by the Group I colonies.

The procedure done to the Group I is repeated with the Group II <….>

In 7-8 days after the process with Group II started, we are starting the process with Group III. The exact same process is repeated with one important difference that no more colonies left to where the brood can be transferred. In order to beneficially use this batch of the brood, we create from this brood (with the young bees!) queen-less colonies – “incubators”. For this we employ the fly-back splitting with the included “trap-frame”.

Thus the Group III colonies double in numbers as each colony produced:

a)brood-less colony with a queen and

b)queen-less colony with a variety of brood and young bees.

The queen-right colonies of Group III we move to the same yard where the Colony I is already located (GV: but NOT immediately, but only after 5-6 days – see below).

Joining Group I and Group III on the same out-yard is done because the Group III has no time to build-up for the main flow and so we boost them with capped and hatching brood frames taken from the Group I. <….>

The Group III queen-right colonies are NOT immediately moved to out-yards so to allow the mites to concentrate on the “trap-frames”.

(GV: this is unlike the Groups I and II. The implication is that the “trap-frames” are revised and handled BEFORE the Group III colonies are moved to the out-yards. This is done to minimize bringing the mites to the out-yards).

The queen-less colonies are staying on the main base, raise brood and new queens (from emergency cells) and used for the business expansion/replacements.

Treatment of the queen-less “incubator” colonies is done as follows. While the bees are making new queens, the queens mate and start laying again, the “incubators” become brood-less. When brood becomes available again in 2-3 weeks, the mites will concentrate on the very first frames to be capped. We inspect 1-2 such frames and destroy them where appropriate. After this the “incubator” colonies are nominally healthy.

The diagram represents the works done (to be added).

In the season 1979 we improved the method by adding next to the “trap-frame” additional foundation-less frame to allow the bees building drone comb in it. It becomes the secondary “trap-frame”. Mites are attracted to the drone brood more than to the worker brood. “Trap-frames” with drone brood with high infestation we destroy also.

It should be noted that these zootechnical procedures should be done before the swarming period in your area. If administered too late, the procedures will not prevent swarming – the additional benefit of the process.

*Benefits of the particular procedure described above is it coincides with regular anti-swarming bee yard works done routinely anyway. Migrating colonies to the out-yards is done for increasing honey harvest as a routine. Splitting and raising new queens – these are all routine bee yard works. The only additional work is monitoring and possible destruction of the “trap-frames”.*

The table 26 (below) contains four years of data for the said method used in production and demonstrating the results. Before the treatment, amount of mites per 100 cells of brood varied over the years from 5 to 13.6; after the treatment – from 0 to 0.4. <….>

All treated colonies, while having some levels of infestation, did not show signs of disease. Wintering went normally. Winter/spring colony weakening was compatible to other healthy bee yards.

In other cases before treatment, average mite population in 100 cells of brood was 7 mites and after treatment – 1-2 mites. When the “trap-frames” were destroyed, they on average contained 38 mites per 100 cells of brood.

Table 26. Monitoring of the effectiveness of the zootechnical method of varroa control (<….> bee yard)


YearsNumber of coloniesNumber of mites per 100 cells. (Number of cells per 100 bees). BEFORE treatment.Number of mites per 100 cells. (Number of cells per 100 bees). AFTER treatment.Avg honey harvested per colony, kg.Colony strength in fall, after treatment (seams of bees)Colony strength in spring, after treatment (seams of bees)Comments1976​7​9.4 +/-1.2 (--)0 (--)62.5​7.9​7.1​First 3 years mites on bees were not measured.1977​70​6.35 +/-0.9 (--)0.4 (--)47​7.6​6.5​1978​27​5.0+/-0.3 (--)0.2 (--)46.1​8.4​7.8​Control (GV: 1978?)8​5.0+/-0.3 (--)14.4 (--)22​6​(--)4 control colonies died over the winter.
4 remaining control colonies destroyed in spring.1979​30​13.6 (8.2)0 (0)57.1​8.3​(--)In 1979 mites in the "trap-frames" were counted. Found 43 mites per 100 cells of brood on average.Control (GV: 1979?)30​13.6 (8.2)23.4 (19.6)52.8​7.6​(--)On 9/12/1979 mites on bees were counted. On treated group there were 2.8 mites per 100 bees (GV: assume average?), on control group there were 38.3 mites. Another count during the last flight day (10/17/1979) - accordingly 1.9% and 17.5%.


----------



## crofter

Would it not be a logistical nightmare? Labor cost at north american standards???


----------



## Gray Goose

msl said:


> What makes that instering is varron made the jump in japan at about the same time
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.evacranetrust.org/uploads/document/767e345ca3dddb794878e3716b7a24533acfdfbf.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> European bees were introduced to japan in 1876.. makes one wonder what took so long... or more to the point WHY it happened when it did...


If bees were being imported, all it took was 1 mite infected package.
Not likely looking for the Mites then so would have been a random event.

GG


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> So indeed the year *1964 *was when administration officially proclaimed the mite presense in the Primorsky region.
> Notice that this reporting always concerned only the *state-operated beekeeping* - subject to regulation, monitoring AND to local and regional political pressures.
> Private beekeeping was always under the radar (still is) - importantly!
> Anyways, the below does not disagree that the mites have been in the region since at least 1950s.
> 
> From the issue 9, 1971.
> My brief and free hand extracts:
> 
> in* 1964* a massive mite infection was registered in one of the region state yards
> during 1966-1970 investigations it was determined that the mite is widely distributed in the region (and the distribution continues growing)
> according to well regarded scientists of the time (professor Poltev) there were no observation of the mites in the area and the ideas of the mite being present in the area before are not founded (which I will call bull****)
> --- the region is as large as 2-3 states of WI with heavily forested and mountainous landscape, and the unregulated beekeeping is all over the place (and this is not even considering China just across the very long border - bees don't know of the borders, obviously)
> 
> still, the article states (this is 1971) that the mite must have been around for at least 10-15 years
> currently (i. e. 1971) the hobbyist bee yards are the main sources of mite; the small scale beekeeping is very popular, unregulated and not monitored;
> the small scale beekeepers regularly migrate their bees between different pastures to maximize the production


IMO it is important to note, that the state owned and the private owned Apiaries were likely done different, as to management.
state owned followed well established rules. the private, would be more "Greg Like"  no pun intended.
I heard the state owned,, imported a lot of bees to replace the lost ones, thinking it was a bad local gene issue and likely exacerbated the issue. Like here many of the commercials treat, many of the private backyard do not. So be curious to see either hive count wise or site wise how many were "private" and how many state owned. Obviously many of the private were in the bush somewhere not know to many. Like was there > 50% private or Vise Versa

GG


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Good job, Russ, doing some direct investigation!
> 
> Your findings just confirm what we discussed above - outside of very strict controlled environment we can not expect reliable replication of the same trait in long term.
> I am not going to re-quote the supporting evidence - it is all there in your post.
> One can stop right here:
> _"..........17 lines represented today. They have *the most diverse genetics currently tracked in U.S. breeding stock*........."_
> 
> Basically, on the ground we are commonly dealing with uncontrolled sales and re-sales of some undocumented "Russian hybrids" from undocumented sources and have a mess of variability they produce. That alone produces unpredictable results.
> 
> Multiply that by the variability dumped on me by the legions of the "bee savers" who live in my suburban vicinity and keep buying the imported stocks annually (so they can "help saving the bees" or just having fun without any high claims).
> 
> It is really ugly - the biggest evil are those short-term "bee savers" that keep polluting the area and will dilute very quickly the best possible stock I may try to import. This is exactly the situation I have on my hands. My back porch being the most successful swarm trapping location in 2020 season - that tells you something.
> 
> 2 of 3 F1 daughters of my "breeder queen" died *BEFORE* any dark horse queens I got just by random swarm trapping.
> Now that is ironic - not much of the predictability to speak of.
> LOL
> 
> So that begs a question - is it worth buying and importing select stock into my particular area?
> I think not - in my particular area it is not really worth trying to be selecting for any particular traits (e.g. resistance) - an impossible fit given the uncontrolled and massive importations.
> 
> It is either I need to start treating (hopefully following the intelligent IPM methods).
> 
> OR - just continue being a cynic bee swarm hunter and taking advantage of the free bees available annually for easy taking (and exploit that for the bee product production).
> Heck, may even take on some bee/queen selling - as if selling "untreated, locally-mated bees" - LOL.
> That would be bull***, but some locals do just that.
> 
> For sure, uncontrolled bee importation has one positive attribute - reliable availability of escaped swarms for easy taking.
> So that is a silver lining as for me. Haha!
> 
> I guess we just keep toying around with the "citizen science" types of projects.
> At least that is a cheap way to have fun and *might *actually produce something useful.


I can comment on the Russians As I have had several batches of them.
Overall I have purchased maybe 20 queens 6 or so at a clip.
First year they are great, calm, good crop, resistant.
However when they replace the queen or swarm, they will obviously open mate.
Every yard where I have had these (5) they cross out differently. So it is a crap shoot to predict.
the second (F1) is mostly ok, by the 3rd (F2) generation they are at the die or get somewhat hot point.
I have a yard of F3s to replace this spring, almost to hot to have in a rural setting, homes on both sides.
If they survive which the hot ones seem to do well, I'll move the Queens to a production yard, and requeen the parent hives this spring.
I have way better survival with the Russians over the others I have tried.
I did try the Saz with a 6 of 6 die out first winter.
The Russians I generally have at least 50% left, cannot say the same for others I have tried.
I did get 3 swarms this year, any that survive, I will try to set up in a different yard. Still looking for that majic swarm that is resistant.
Way to many newbies, in this area buying bees every year as they never can get them over winter. So the drones are somewhat unpredictable and not local.
IF I had a place that did not have any bees it would likely work better but so far that place does not exist, that I have access to.
If I had the time IMO the thing to do is get several keepers to agree on a race and start expanding that area into a county or 2 producing everyone's queens in the center.

GG


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> Would it not be a logistical nightmare? Labor cost at north american standards???


OK.
I considered these before spending the 2-3 hours of my own time doing the translation work.
I already understood the ideas for myself so why bother?
Well, I still wanted to share the material because it is a worthwhile approach IMO.

Here re-pasting:

*Benefits of the particular procedure described above is it coincides with regular anti-swarming bee yard works done routinely anyway. Migrating colonies to the out-yards is done for increasing honey harvest as a routine. Splitting and raising new queens – these are all routine bee yard works. The only additional work is monitoring and possible destruction of the “trap-frames”.*

This is the original premise of the method authors - IF you do similar routines already (migrating to follow the flows, use multiple locations, do anti-swarming splitting, do brood moves to even-out colonies), why not consider the mite management while doing it ?

They simply integrated the "trap-frame" into their existing management routines - which amounts to nominal additional overhead.

Now the North American context.
Again - why copy the process "as written"?
This is not the USA Constitution.
In fact, the US Supreme Court justices themselves can not agree how exactly to follow the Constitution - "as written" OR "per the probable intent".
LOL

Even if you don't practice the management of the authors (and for sure don't have similar local conditions), there are few key points worth considering for your own situation.

For example, instead of moving Group I to the summer flow out-yards, one can just as well move the Group III *away to an alternate location after the brood moves (or as a part of the brood moves). *The key point here is - physical separation of the mites from the bees (via the brood moves). Less important is what is moved where - as for me, *moving the weak hives and the brood is much simpler *and this is what I envision for my own use.
So the flexibility and creativity is left up to you.

And if your situation does not fit, then it does not fit - that simple.


----------



## crofter

Sorry Greg; Was not meaning to belittle your efforts to translate and transcribe that management system. I dont doubt its efficacy but I see it as so organizationally intensive with time sensitive coordination of events etc., that it would not be simple to implement. Being treatment free is not the simple way by any means. Even when achieved, high mite resistance takes a lot of ongoing effort to maintain or it fades away. Isolation conditions are becoming more and more scarce.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> IMO it is important to note, that the state owned and the private owned Apiaries were likely done different, as to management.


Right.
As commented above along the same exact line.

The state-owned apiaries (while being monitored and "properly managed" - officially anyway) acted as *infestation amplifiers* due to scale, concentration, and the migrations (once infected). Once the mite was on the official list, the carpet-treatments became the part of large-scale routine (with various success).

The "Greg Like" private operators, while playing the part in transmissions of the mites (pretty obvious!), also were the critical part in the Primorsky bee's natural resistance development - because no one required the small yard operators to treat the bees systemically (not that it was even enforceable - NOT).

These random, unregulated, small and widly distributed bush yards where the current Primorsky bees trait originate from - IMO.


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> Sorry Greg; Was not meaning to belittle your efforts to translate and transcribe that management system. I dont doubt its efficacy but I see it as so organizationally intensive with time sensitive coordination of events etc., that it would not be simple to implement. Being treatment free is not the simple way by any means. Even when achieved, high mite resistance takes a lot of ongoing effort to maintain or it fades away. Isolation conditions are becoming more and more scarce.


Not a problem.
The work required is there! I don't even argue.

But, like I said, it is very much case by case.
For some it will be a major shift in thinking and management (probably not feasible).

But for myself, I already do multiple yards and move my bees around anyway.
Unfortunately, any meaningful isolation is not possible here. 
But at least I don't have issues related to high concentration of the colonies - this is significant. Simple cross-drifting with my colonies is not a high scale issue. Potential robbing of some nearby yards most definitely is an issue - nothing I can do there.

The main idea left to implement - *deliberately *test the *very first frame capped* after the brood-less splitting/swarming event (and possibly just destroy it - based on the inspection results).
Very much likely the frame will be infested heavily enough that destroying it will not be a real loss (the brood would be compromised anyway). For sure, this applies to the very first drone brood too, when it is capped.
I personally never paid attention to this little detail - the deliberate "trap-frame" - something to do in the season 2021.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> I heard the state owned,, imported a lot of bees to replace the lost ones, thinking it was a bad local gene issue and likely exacerbated the issue.


1950s-1960s, the Caucasians were in vogue in the USSR and were thought to be the cure for all.
For example, highly defensive local AMMs was a major PITA to manage on a large scale - the Caucasians were to fix that. 
Riiiiight. 

They imported them everywhere without much consideration, including the Far East too (spoiled lots of native populations along the way, of course).
The state-owned apiaries did this to themselves, and to everyone around them too.

That was some disaster, but it is what it is. 
One example where non-qualified state buerocrates can do a lot of damage (per the proposals from the non-qualified "scientists").


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Not a problem.
> The work required is there! I don't even argue.
> 
> But, like I said, it is very much case by case.
> For some it will be a major shift in thinking and management (probably not feasible).
> 
> But for myself, I already do multiple yards and move my bees around anyway.
> Unfortunately, any meaningful isolation is not possible here.
> But at least I don't have issues related to high concentration of the colonies - this is significant. Simple cross-drifting with my colonies is not a high scale issue. Potential robbing of some nearby yards most definitely is an issue - nothing I can do there.
> 
> The main idea left to implement - *deliberately *test the *very first frame capped* after the brood-less splitting/swarming event (and possibly just destroy it - based on the inspection results).
> Very much likely the frame will be infested heavily enough that destroying it will not be a real loss (the brood would be compromised anyway). For sure, this applies to the very first drone brood too, when it is capped.
> I personally never paid attention to this little detail - the deliberate "trap-frame" - something to do in the season 2021.


you could freeze it and then in a week or 2 put it into a hive to clean out.
or in your case perhaps a brood press.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> brood press.


Brood press!


Even bears know what is more valuable nutritionally (left the honey, ate the brood).








I think a bear might have got me beehive, does it look...


The top hived had to weigh close to 90 pounds yet ended a good 25 feet away. Weird thing is whatever it was cleaned out the lower hive where the bees and any brood would be and left most the frames of honey alone. We only live about a mile and a half from downtown but butt up next to 50 acers of...




www.beesource.com






Published online 2020 Dec 3. ...........
*Drone Brood Homogenate as Natural Remedy for Treating Health Care Problem: A Scientific and Practical Approach*








Drone Brood Homogenate as Natural Remedy for Treating Health Care Problem: A Scientific and Practical Approach


Drone brood homogenate is a little-known bee product used in folk medicine to treat various health problems. It is a very nutritious milky substance with high content of nutrients: proteins, lipids, fatty acids, carbohydrates, vitamins (A, B, E and D), ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> 1950s-1960s, the Caucasians were in vogue in the USSR and were thought to be the cure for all.


Here is one of many articles of the era - Beekeeping mag, issue 6/1957, pp. 15-18
The title says:
*Improvement of the local bees by the way of crossing them with the Gray Caucasians.*
M.T. Golovnya
Ukrainian station of the beekeeping scientific research.

Three pages of scientific proof with graphs and tables how the hybrids are the winners in honey, wax, pollination production, wintering success, as well as the hands down easy management (over the local Ukrainian bees).
The data are probably fudged to agree with the current Party line of the time, but what do I know?
Anyways, the Caucasion hybrids were the super-bee of the time.


----------



## GregB

Been reading about late season mite importations.








Selective Breeding for Mite Resistance: 1000 hives, 100 hours - Scientific Beekeeping


Contents Quick summary. 1 First assessment—early July. 1 Breeder disappointment. 2 Second through fourth assessments. 3 The final tally. 3 The Cost of the selective breeding program.. 4 what’s next. 4 Control of matings. 5 Analysis of the late-season Failure to Maintain low mite levels. 5 Could...




scientificbeekeeping.com





I suppose my #2 and #3 could bring in loads of mites AFTER I measured them.
Must have robbed someone.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> I suppose my #2 and #3 could bring in loads of mites AFTER I measured them.


Good reminder, GregV. As Randy indicates:

*'Take home message:*_ *spot checking is likely to miss the bombs.'*_

What I've always struggled with concerning the 'mite bomb' theory (particularly in a TF context) is whether robbing and drifting truly represents the fundamental root cause of late-season mite spikes in most cases. Rereading this article, makes me curious if Mr. Oliver is struggling with this too: 

*'Since the late-season spike is so erratic, I can only guess that a proportion of the hives in each yard are robbing collapsing hives away from my yards. Since there are only a few hobby beekeepers within flight range, I’m strongly suspecting that the mite influx is coming from escaped swarms.'*_ 
_
*'Update: it now looks as though that if some of my colonies indeed started out with 20 mites or fewer, that the fall spike could have come about from simple reproduction along with minor drift. I will discuss the need to tweak the protocol of my suggested breeding program to account for this.'*

Practically speaking, I wonder if it would be a relatively easy matter to proactively equip all promising colonies with robbing screens to help mitigate (and possibly attenuate out) the prospect of large-scale drift?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I wonder if it would be a relatively easy matter to *proactively equip all promising colonies with robbing screens to help mitigate* (and possibly attenuate out) the prospect of large-scale drift?


Hey, Russ,
Unfortunately, everyone in the vicinity must implement effective anti-robbing measures.
Otherwise, this is not going to work.

With all the hassles I go through to prevent my own bees from being robbed and cross-hive immigrating - I can do absolutely nothing to stop by bees from robbing the neighboring apiaries.

My small round entrances which I aggressively tape over/plug with paper really do work. 
It makes sense to do this proactively with any small colonies and with ALL colonies at the season end.

I also found several non-scientific references of round entrances specifically to be efficient anti-robbing mitigation (found NO scientific testing done of these talks - to be sure).

Unfortunately, every season (fall 2020 included) - our local beeks start screaming the same - "I got robbed!"
Those default entrances of the commercial Lang hives are the real issue - they just scream "rob me!"


----------



## msl

Litsinger said:


> Practically speaking, I wonder if it would be a relatively easy matter to proactively equip all promising colonies with robbing screens to help mitigate (and possibly attenuate out) the prospect of large-scale drift?


Seeleys work suggests its robing not drifting that is the main cause, arguably a screen for all would help.. it s kinda of like masks, if everyone does it everyone is better



Litsinger said:


> What I've always struggled with concerning the 'mite bomb' theory (particularly in a TF context) is whether robbing and drifting truly represents the fundamental root cause of late-season mite spikes in most cases


While seeley didn't run a control (bad science) or take steps to not have mite reproduction skew the numbers (more bad science) other studies used constant treatment to rid the colonies of mites and kill incoming mites so they could be counted


> 28 honey bee colonies kept in two apiaries that had high (HBD) and low (LBD) densities of neighboring colonies. At each apiary, half (seven) of the colonies were continuously treated with acaricides to kill all Varroa mites and thereby determine the invasion rates. The other group of colonies was only treated before the beginning of the experiment and then left untreated to record Varroa population growth until a final treatment in November. The numbers of bees and brood cells of all colonies were estimated according to the Liebefeld evaluation method. The invasion rates varied among individual colonies but revealed highly significant differences between the study sites. The average invasion rate per colony over the entire 3.5-mo period ranged from 266 to 1,171 mites at the HBD site compared with only 72 to 248 mites at the LBD apiary. In the untreated colonies, the Varroa population reached an average final infestation in November of 2,082 mites per colony (HBD) and 340 mites per colony (LBD).











Autumn invasion rates of Varroa destructor (Mesostigmata: Varroidae) into honey bee (Hymenoptera: Apidae) colonies and the resulting increase in mite populations - PubMed


The honey bee parasite Varroa destructor Anderson & Trueman can disperse and invade honey bee colonies by attaching to "drifting" and "robbing" honey bees that move into nonnatal colonies. We quantified the weekly invasion rates and the subsequent mite population growth from the end of July to...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov




of note this wasn't a mite bomb test, just a test of colony density. one assumes there were some bombs, but overall it shows why isolation can be a key component of TF


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> Good reminder, GregV. As Randy indicates:
> 
> *'Take home message:*_ *spot checking is likely to miss the bombs.'*_
> 
> What I've always struggled with concerning the 'mite bomb' theory (particularly in a TF context) is whether robbing and drifting truly represents the fundamental root cause of late-season mite spikes in most cases. Rereading this article, makes me curious if Mr. Oliver is struggling with this too:
> 
> *'Since the late-season spike is so erratic, I can only guess that a proportion of the hives in each yard are robbing collapsing hives away from my yards. Since there are only a few hobby beekeepers within flight range, I’m strongly suspecting that the mite influx is coming from escaped swarms.'*
> 
> *'Update: it now looks as though that if some of my colonies indeed started out with 20 mites or fewer, that the fall spike could have come about from simple reproduction along with minor drift. I will discuss the need to tweak the protocol of my suggested breeding program to account for this.'*
> 
> Practically speaking, I wonder if it would be a relatively easy matter to proactively equip all promising colonies with robbing screens to help mitigate (and possibly attenuate out) the prospect of large-scale drift?


short answer NO.

Russ the screens are not the fix.
When your bees are robbing a collapsing hive, it may not be screened as the owner does not know it is collapsing, often when empty , they ask here "why did the bees leave"?
Or if it is a feral hive ,in a roof , wall or tree it will not be screened.

Even if not collapsing, open fall feeding or setting out wet supers to "clean" offers a ton of bee to bee contact in fall. Bigger bang for your efforts, to eliminate open feeding of any sort (15% gain here)

IMO your installed robber screen protects other hives from your mite bomb collapsing hive , ,,somewhat, a few percent.
As well if you use the same brand or design on the robber screens it will not prevent drift. if all doors are the same who is confused on how to get in?
As well IMO as a hive is "collapsing" some bees leave to join strong hives. (panic drift)

out of 100 points of protection I would give robber screens a 3-5 for over all help/effect. stopping open feeding would be at least 3 times more effective IMO.
Just in case there is doubt, I do not use them , likely never would, would not make them a Varroa defense component, and I kinda do not like them..

Sorry if I am unclear.



GG


----------



## Litsinger

Thanks, gents. Just to be clear, I was talking about drift and not robbing. I do understand the concept of 'robber lures' and recognize this is an issue.

My comments relative to robbing screens were in response to Randy's comment that, '... _the fall spike could have come about from simple reproduction along with minor drift.'_ To say nothing about robbing... 

I will look forward to reading the research that MSL has posted. Looks like good stuff.

Russ


----------



## AR1

GregV, we briefly mentioned cold frames for late fall vegetables. I didn't get around to making them, but I did toss plastic sheets over part of the garden. Today I picked fresh rocket greens! December 19 and still alive. Of note, a small tobacco plant was under the plastic sheet too, and still alive. Tobacco is related to tomatoes, and about equally frost intolerant. So, next fall the garden is getting some actual cold frames. Some of the greens are flowering, and there are rocket and lettuce sprouts.


----------



## GregB

Tada!
After some doing I figured out how to have the automated bee breed analysis to work for me.
All I did - modified an Excel macro from a Russified system to work in the US setting.
Otherwise, I followed all the documentation from Anatoly Kartashov from Russia to do this.

Here is the original designer's site - «Порода по крыльям» | Жил-был пчеловод

Below is a snippet of the #1 analysis (a mite-infested dead-out I reported above).
Nothing un-expected - just mutts of about 50/50 Ligustica/Carnica.
(never mind the original owner of the bees who was sure she had some highly hygienic *Carnica *bees - LOL).

Four out of 24 sample wings could not be definitely classified by the program.

Need a break from this project before I run more analysis on other batches I got.
Need to think what I can do with all these numbers and how to improve the actual process and my own skills around it.

For sure in the US setting, these all will be mutts of various degrees, but some useful cases come to mind.
For example, IF I get a hold of some "Russian" bee samples, I'd expect at least some "Mellifera" indication in them - else these would not be Russians but some "cat in a bag" bees sold to unsuspecting public.












Here is a page of the original designer where they traveled to a remote Siberian place looking for pure Mellifera bees and found them (scroll down for the analysis results):





В поисках Среднерусской пчелы | Жил-был пчеловод


В 2013 и 2014гг. я и мой коллега, Богомолов Кирилл Викторович, провели 2 экспедиции в Енисейский район Красноярского края. Ставилась задача обследовать на породную принадлежность удалённые пасеки в надежде найти не метизированных чистопородных пчёл Среднерусской породы, которые по слухам, вроде...



www.lifeandbees.ru


----------



## GregB

Well, this is fun.
Unsure though why the %'s don't add up to 100% but go over 100% (hopefully this is not a bug, but a design feature I don't understand yet). It may have to do with the overlapping of the ranges where the same wing qualifies to more than one suggested breed.

The #2 from my 2020 run was predominantly Caucasica with a tiny hint of Mellifera.
Ligustica and Carnica presense are pretty much given.
Now, really curious to see the #3 analyzed when I get to it (sister of the #2).


----------



## Gray Goose

nice work Greg,

re: the comment
"Below is a snippet of the #1 analysis (a mite-infested dead-out I reported above).
Nothing un-expected - just mutts of about 50/50 Ligustica/Carnica."
(never mind the original owner of the bees who was sure she had some highly hygienic *Carnica *bees - LOL). 

One Supercedure or swarm event, or even open mating at the source would 50-50 the bees .

Be interesting to do an analysis of the drones only (summer) to get a better understanding of the Queen, as her drones should run true. While the workers would be the crosses with the 18-30 daddy drones.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Be interesting to do an analysis of the drones only (summer) to get a better understanding of the Queen, as her drones should run true. While the workers would be the crosses with the 18-30 daddy drones.


This program depends on the worker wings.
Unsure if the drone wings work or not - to be found out.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> One Supercedure or swarm event, or even open mating at the source would 50-50 the bees .


Pretty sure, the motivation behind this program was to identify pure lines of AMM bees (where the drones and queens are of the same line or compatible enough). The designer of the program is a huge AMM enthusiast (per his writings) and so his effort was to weed out all the hybrids and find the purest possible AMM bee for selection needs. The final analysis output of the program is to score a given colony in terms of eligibility for the AMM breeder quality.

Interestingly, our current situation is completely different and goals are different too (pure heirloom bee is a virtual impossibility in the US anyway, outside of a lab). 
For example, it would be huge to detect AHB or AMM presense in the analysis samples (for certain needs, e.g. resistance traits). 
Or an ability to quickly identify a rough "finger print" (without complicated and expensive genetic testing) of a given bee is great too.

I am trying get the communication going with the guy.


----------



## GregB

#3 (sister of #2) - just another Cau/Lig/Car mutt.
This should probably be pretty common picture for most all US bees.
At least it should disprove most claims of some "pure breeds" for sale.

Be great if Scutellata spec was added to the configuration to try and detect it.

Few wings not being determined are just my own sloppy work and sub-standard equipment.
Better quality of work should provide finer resolution - these are just training runs for me.
Also, I can now tell - 1200 DPI scanner is not good enough for wing scanning.
Need something finer or USB microscope or maybe just regular camera worth trying.


----------



## AR1

Be very surprised if there is not some African floating around in low percentages everywhere, increasing over time.


----------



## msl

Tofilski's drawwing and identifly are commonly used for this, and likly have a deeper sample size and wider range of species





IdentiFly | DrawWing







drawwing.org


----------



## GregB

To be sure, we are not concerned with the insect species identification here.
I am not.


(PS: actually, this maybe a great tool, just reading the docs; maybe I spoke too soon!).
(PPS: well, the "How to use Drawwing?" documentation says
........At the moment *three subspecies *can be discriminated (_A. m. carnica, A. m. cuacasica, A. m. mellifera_)........) - way to go yet for this to be useful.

I am, actually, trying to obtain morphological profiles of true Primorsky bees if I can do that from the actual source.

It is just in Russia-proper the selection geeks are not looking at the hybrids as non-worthy bees (like the Primorsky) - everyone is running around looking for the pure AMMs, Carpathica, and such (which I can understand since they still got the original bees to tinker with).
Got even a cooler morpho-analysis program to test out (directly from Ukraine).


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> To be sure, we are not concerned with the insect species identification here.
> 
> 
> I am, actually, trying to obtain morphological profiles of true Primorsky bees if I can do that from the actual source.


Is there a 'true' Primorsky bee? My understanding is they are a mixed breed with a lot of variation, old imported stock and probably a bunch of 'new' imported stock during the Soviet era and later. Plus there is a lot of climactic variation in that region from coastal to inland, and south to north. 

It would be nice if someone collected Primorsky stock from deep rural villages or swarm trapped from remote areas. Might get a different sort of bee.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> After some doing I figured out how to have the automated bee breed analysis to work for me.


This is neat stuff, GregV. Reading through the website via the magic of Google Translate, it looks like it is quite an undertaking to perform the analysis. 

If you don't mind me asking, how long is it taking you from start-to-finish to execute the analysis?


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Is there a 'true' Primorsky bee?


Of course, it is a hybrid.

However - a hybrid with certain average proportions of the original bees.
For example, one of the inputs of the Primorsky bees was the Ukrainian Steppe bee (*Apis mellifera sossimai)*
And of course, AMM, Ligustica, Caucasica (possibly Carpathica).

So if none of these together are detected in a sample (like I tested above) - these are not really Primorsky bees, seems to me.
However, if significant presence of AMM/AMS are detected (I have not a clue how much) - then we have something to think about.

And so, be great to obtain a morpho-analysis done directly in the Primorsky region and see the original source to get some idea what to look for. Not to mention, they have local sub-populations - upland bees/lowland bees/coastal bees.

Of course, this is a very rough tool and not a replacement for genetic analysis.
But hey - it is free, everyone can do it, and it gives some info (vs. no info).
Especially, when someone sells "Russian" bees those "Russians" should resemble the Primorsky bees. I mean to ask for samples of dead "Russian" bees on my local bee forum and run them through.
Will see what turns up.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> If you don't mind me asking, how long is it taking you from start-to-finish to execute the analysis?


1)Scanning the wings - the most PITA - took me 3-4 hours to prep my own crappy wing samples and scan them in.
I got three samples done like the one pictured.
Of course, I was learning by doing. There will be changes going forward.
2)Takes about 20-30 mins to process such a sample using TPSDIG tool
3)Takes 5 min to run the sample through a morpho-analysis tool - and you get a complete Excel report - several tabs of graphs, tables, etc. What I pasted is just a very brief overview of the findings per each sample.

Getting the morpho-analysis tool to work was the most undertaking as it was not setup to work in the English system. Thankfully, I know a little about programming and such.


----------



## msl

GregV said:


> ..At the moment *three subspecies *can be discriminated (_A. m. carnica, A. m. cuacasica, A. m. mellifera_)........) - way to go yet for this to be useful.


thats drawwing, the older of the 2 programs the newer one
*IdentiFly* has many more (25 IIRR)

















Computer software for identification of honey bee subspecies and evolutionary lineages - Apidologie


Within the western honey bee (Apis mellifera), there are more than 20 recognised subspecies. It is well known that these subspecies differ in their wing venation patterns. However, there is a demand for efficient tools to identify honey bee subspecies, ecotypes, populations or hybrids. The aim...




link.springer.com


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> thats drawwing, the older of the 2 programs the newer one
> *IdentiFly* has many more (25 IIRR)


Cool; thanks!


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Of course, it is a hybrid.
> 
> However - a hybrid with certain average proportions of the original bees.
> For example, one of the inputs of the Primorsky bees was the Ukrainian Steppe bee (*Apis mellifera sossimai)*
> And of course, AMM, Ligustica, Caucasica (possibly Carpathica).
> 
> So if none of these together are detected in a sample (like I tested above) - these are not really Primorsky bees, seems to me.
> However, if significant presence of AMM/AMS are detected (I have not a clue how much) - then we have something to think about.
> 
> And so, be great to obtain a morpho-analysis done directly in the Primorsky region and see the original source to get some idea what to look for. Not to mention, they have local sub-populations - upland bees/lowland bees/coastal bees.
> 
> Of course, this is a very rough tool and not a replacement for genetic analysis.
> But hey - it is free, everyone can do it, and it gives some info (vs. no info).
> Especially, when someone sells "Russian" bees those "Russians" should resemble the Primorsky bees. I mean to ask for samples of dead "Russian" bees on my local bee forum and run them through.
> Will see what turns up.


Greg,
So the decoder ring" IE patterns in the wing etc, how long is that "accurate" for 3 years 10 years, forever?
IMO we would see some drift and these patterns would need periodic updating.
It is not so Black and white , more shades of gray.

If 3 or 4 races are mixed , is it a new race then?
what if there is drift to a dominate one of the 3 or 4?
I am not convinced you would see a pureish AMM Wing in a Russian Hive.
I would think you are some where in the middle of the 3 wing types which may be close to a 5th or 6th type of bee.

Interesting experiment, the data , not sure what it would show, Likely depend on the wing patterns you have to compare them to. 
If I mate a black horse with a white horse and get a whiteish horse with black spots , it may or may not be an Appaloosa. So not sure with a pure race wing data set you can match "mutts" to gain any clear understanding. My point is it may be possible to have a 3 or 4 bee mix that is real close to a 4th or 5th bee type.

now if a current data set of the 17 different Russian lines would be available with all the wing patterns, then perhaps some gleanings could be made. the out come is only as valid as the accuracy of the inputs.

Seems to me you may be winging it with some of the needed inputs.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Greg,
> So the decoder ring" IE patterns in the wing etc, how long is that "accurate" for 3 years 10 years, forever?


This is why I'd like to obtain the current morpho-signatures of the Primorsky bees and see how they look like now and get some idea.
One problem is that people down there are no interested in hybrids and rather are chasing "pure bees". But maybe someone has the sampling done anyway (OR could just do it).
Sending over few analysis files should take a minute.

Ideally, the samples from the current Russian association can be fetched too and looked at.
Very interesting how would they compare - in theory they are maintaining the breed as is.
So they should largely match.
What about in practice?

There will not be pure AMM wings mixed in - for sure.
Rather, there will be likelyhoods expressed in %
That what is a good morpho-program should do - produce some probabilities for a given sample.

Look at the IdentiFly (MSL posted) - similar approach based on the wing analysis.

I don't know we can include anything into a possible "Russian" bee.
However, we can much easier *exclude *some samples as clearly "non-Russian".
That is already a good deal as for me.
I'd like to check some of my suspected "Russians" for myself.

Here is one of the graphs produced for sample #2 (pasted above).
Notice now the sample points land in to ranges of AMM, AML, AMCau and AMCar, and how the ranges overlap.
That is all we are looking at - nothing is black and white; only shades of gray.
As it looks to me - I exclude it from potential "Russians".


----------



## GregB

BTW, an informed purchaser of bees/queens, would ideally want a morpho-signature of the bees that his/her purchased queens are generating. 
Be pretty cool to look at the morpho-signature print-outs when you are buying some bee.
So that is one idea just popped up.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> BTW, an informed purchaser of bees/queens, would ideally want a morpho-signature of the bees that his/her purchased queens are generating.
> Be pretty cool to look at the morpho-signature print-outs when you are buying some bee.
> So that is one idea just popped up.


wild I almost offered that as a "certification " method
great minds think alike.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> wild I almost offered that as a "certification " method
> great minds think alike.
> 
> GG


Exactly GG.

A seller could produce a representative morpho-signature for his Carni's for sale stating no less than 75% of the bees in the packages can be in the classified as Carni (if someone bothers to run the wing scanning and check).

These kinds of things should be out and in the open.
Morpho analysis is simple enough and cheap enough (like free) and good enough for general use.

Anymore any bee is called a Carni and people just take it as a fact.
Yellow "Carni's" are all over the place. 
The wing scans will produce 50% Carni at best when the yellow "Carni" is verified (IF that), and yet people still sell them labeled as such.
Recently discussed:








Is this an Italian or Carniolan?


I have googled this but don't come up with any sources. Is it possible to determine the race of a queen by her physical attributes or behaviors? This is not a quiz, but does the queen in the photo look like an Italian or Carniolan? I ordered a Carniolan, but I "think" I got an Italian. The...




www.beesource.com


----------



## msl

GregV said:


> Morpho analysis is simple enough and cheap enough (like free) and good enough for general use


witch does beg the question, why is it not being used, especially in AHB areas


----------



## JWPalmer

Thanks guys, I just downloaded the IdentiFly program. Now if I could figure out HOW to use it. Printed off the instructions but have not read them yet. Instructions? Pshaw!


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> witch does beg the question, why is it not being used, especially in AHB areas


It sounds complicated (UNTIL you go for it and give it an honest try).
Well, takes a little bit of reading too up front (not for everyone).


I meant to learn it for a while - finally got around to it over this X-Mas break.
So learning by doing.


----------



## GregB

JWPalmer said:


> Thanks guys, I just downloaded the IdentiFly program. Now if I could figure out HOW to use it. Printed off the instructions but have not read hem yet. Instructions? Pshaw!


Here you go!

In fact, I mean to compare two-three morpho-analysis tools side-by-side.
Now that I have them I should.


----------



## msl

GregV said:


> It sounds complicated (UNTIL you go for it and give it an honest try


ya... but it also feels like something that could easily be made in to a cell phone app!!

Another tool


https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00218839.2018.1501856


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> ya... but it also feels like something that could easily be made in to a cell phone app!!


It maybe.
But from what I found so far - quality wing scanning is the most important step for the accuracy.
Unsure a cell phone can do that.
Decent optics/scanner is hard to fake.
But also, a USB microscope is only 30-40 bucks and CAN be plugged into a phone.
So - maybe.

However, working on a decent monitor is so MUCH MORE ergonomic than on a dinky phone screen. I still value my eyes - gets tiresome quickly when land-marking several hundred points.


----------



## JWPalmer

So what is the best way to image the forewing. I don't think the cell phone camera is going to work too well. Do I need a microscope that can take pictures? Once the image is in and I set the landmarks, does it take its own measurements or do I need a very accurate set of calipers?

I see you added an edit. Me too. What do you think of this one?



https://www.amazon.com/Microscope-Magnification-microscope-Compatible-Handheld/dp/B08HX42NCB/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?_encoding=UTF8&c=ts&dchild=1&keywords=Lab+Handheld+Digital+Microscopes&qid=1609891199&s=photo&sr=1-1-spons&ts_id=2742273011&psc=1&smid=A3C0TSJJHV9KIS&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzUENaRlhTTTFZQlY5JmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzU4OTIwUEVBMVRXV1BJMjdWJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAxMzIwNjQyS0c2MjZPWklHMk1UJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==


----------



## GregB

JWPalmer said:


> So what is the best way to image the forewing. I don't think the cell phone camera is going to work too well. Do I need a microscope that can take pictures? Once the image is in and I set the landmarks, does it take its own measurements or do I need a very accurate set of calipers?


JW, I tried my existing 1200DPI scanner and.... it works OK.
But could be better.
So I am thinking to retry the scanning step using my existing Nikon in macro-mode.
Then will compare the analysis outcomes.
If the results are close enough, a basic scanner is good enough for home use.

If buying a scanner, get 2400 DPI or better.

Scanner is much more convenient and efficient - obviously.
A decent camera + camera stand (or a similar hack) should work too.
USB microscope works too.
For small scale production - not a big deal.

Once you set the land-marks - you are done with the hard work.

Few mouse clicks in the morpho-tool - and study the results.

One good thing about my morpho-tools I got handy ("Breed by Wings" and MorphoXL) - only takes 8 points per a wing.
This is unlike the IdentiFly - this one takes much more work (but maybe fancier analysis IF that matters for you).


----------



## JWPalmer

I like the idea of getting real close with the sub-species. I sell nucs and people ask, "what kind of bees are they?" Right now I just tell them mutts with Caucasian characteristics. I would like to know for sure, especially since I intend to start a breeding program for queens.


----------



## JWPalmer

Well, I pulled the trigger and bought the USB microscope. Had some money from a gift card on the account so I am out of pocket about $12. Will see if it gives me a good image or not. If not, I'll get something better and give this one to my granddaughter.


----------



## GregB

JWPalmer said:


> I like the idea of getting real close with the sub-species. I sell nucs and people ask, "what kind of bees are they?" Right now I just tell them mutts with Caucasian characteristics. I would like to know for sure, especially since I intend to start a breeding program for queens.


IF I am to sell bees, I'd want to know myself what I am selling for sure (and would provide the info to the buyers as a bonus for their business). And also to stand out among all the mutt sellers out there. 

BTW, per the documentation I read so far - *takes 24 wings* to accurately identify a makeup of a colony.
So, per the same doc recommendation, I go for 30 wings per a colony.
This gives some room for failed identifications and still produces good enough set to profile a colony.

Instead of going around and doing my traditional X-Mas survivor counting, I chose to spend the holiday time learning morpho-analysis.
Hopefully soon enough will get out and collect more dead bees and do more morpho-runs.


----------



## GregB

JWPalmer said:


> I see you added an edit. Me too. What do you think of this one?


Dunno, JW.
Am learning myself too.
Guess at this pricing, just get the darn thing and try it.


----------



## msl

JWPalmer said:


> I just tell them mutts with Caucasian characteristics


and we may not get any better then mutts with mostly x

but hibreds will likly be a issue, as will the very likly unique to north america alleles

Ie by the look of things US itialans are still itialians even after all theses years, but have some gentnics that are thier own








(PDF) Comparison of microsatellite DNA diversity among commercial queen breeder stocks of Italian honey bees in the United States and Italy


PDF | Summary Declines in the numbers of breeder honey bee queens and the concomitant loss of genetic diversity could potentially result in inbreeding,... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net


----------



## JWPalmer

Actually won't be too bad. Almost all my colonies are descendants of a single swarm I caught back in 2017. That colony is the one I am most interested in as it had the lowest mite count from my little experiment and is one of the ones I intend to use as a breeder. Initially, the queens were maroon and the drones jet black.

The work hive as I refer to it is clearly Italians based on their coloration and habits. 46-47 degrees out with strong sunshine and nary a bee was flying. The bees at home will fly down to about 45 degrees. I am hesitant to bring the work hive home and dilute the genetics I have established here. Already have the site registered as an out apiary, may just leave them there.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> and we may not get any better then mutts with mostly x


Certainly so.

Unlike in remote Siberian places (there they were able to find ~100% AMM) - we are screwed here.
But hey, ability to print out a sheet that shows your bees are 75% Caucasian is worth something.

Certainly for me, if I find some bees with 20% AMM or AMS - that would be cool.
OR - if my current "breeder" survives - for sure I wanna know her morpho-profile (whatever it is).


----------



## GregB

JWPalmer said:


> I pulled the trigger and bought the USB microscope.


1.9. When working with a USB microscope, it is recommended to set the frame size of 1600x1200, which corresponds to a resolution of approximately 6000 dpi.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Getting the morpho-analysis tool to work was the most undertaking as it was not setup to work in the English system. Thankfully, I know a little about programming and such.


Count me as one impressed. I have read about this type of analysis but assumed it was relegated to research institutions- based on your reporting it looks like anyone with the gumption and tech savvy can pull this off on a hobbyist level. I'll look forward to reading your updates as you refine this process. Good work.


----------



## JWPalmer

It appears that to have any chance of getting accurate results, one needa to be very precise in placing the landmarks. The two images provided are different sub species yet vary only slightly.


----------



## GregB

JWPalmer said:


> It appears that to have any chance of getting accurate results, one needa to be very precise in placing the landmarks. The two images provided are different sub species yet vary only slightly.


For sure.

Hence, the original designers of the morpho tools I am learning/testing BOTH are very clear - the correct scanning/landmarking is the KEY.

Last night I played with my Nikon in macro-setting.
Conclusion - I will redo all my scans using the camera.

While it takes some hassle vs. using my cheap 1200 DPI scanner (much faster) - the imaging results are significantly better.
So, it is the macro photography for me and complete do-over of my original analysis.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Count me as one impressed.


To be sure, Russ, I only did some auto mechanic-level hacking (not the car design).
I will not pretend to understand the complete logic behind the algorithms.
No need - smart people have done the smart work already for us.

Will keep reporting.


----------



## GregB

This is a good enough picture for land-marking.
BS attachment actually lost some zooming ability - in actually it is better.


----------



## GregB

This is not a good picture for land-marking (cheap scanner output).


----------



## Gray Goose

Hi Greg,

Let Us know when we can Send you 30 bees and get a report...


looks like a fun project.

GG


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> BTW, per the documentation I read so far - *takes 24 wings* to accurately identify a makeup of a colony.
> So, per the same doc recommendation, I go for 30 wings per a colony.
> This gives some room for failed identifications and still produces good enough set to profile a colony.


Per the alternative methodology:

2.2. For a *rough estimate *of the family in the first year of life of the uterus (preliminary estimate), as a rule, *requires 30 working bees.* *The exact assessment* of the family on the basis of (full study) requires a collection of *at least 50 bees, *in special cases and 100 bees. For the assessment of the parent's family it is enough to study 50 drones.

I guess, the more the merrier.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Hi Greg,
> 
> Let Us know when we can Send you 30 bees and get a report...
> 
> 
> looks like a fun project.
> 
> GG


Hopefully, we figure this out and I just share the tools and the documentation (IF/ONCE I get the permission from the tool designers).
Else, I will need to charge for my time!


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Hopefully, we figure this out and I just share the tools and the documentation (IF/ONCE I get the permission from the tool designers).
> Else, I will need to charge for my time!


Well I did not presume it would be free. Was thinking of a side line for you 
But sure if the camera is not too costly I can just do it here.

would be nice to know what works in case of a bear wipe out one could recreate.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Well I did not presume it would be free. Was thinking of a side line for you
> But sure if the camera is not too costly I can just do it here.
> 
> would be nice to know what works in case of a bear wipe out one could recreate.
> 
> GG


I hear you.
Side-line deal sounds good too.
Pretty much any camera with macro-setting can do this (mine is about 5-6 years old mid-range cam).

Once I figure this out I might advertise my services too - LOL!
There is a long winter to go yet. 
No rush.


----------



## GregB

Speaking of IdentiFly....
I will not say this is a practical solution for a practical beek - just too much work.

So yesterday I re-did the land-marking for my set #1 (after some painstaking photo manipulations to get the Comp03 image stiched together from 10 separate camera pictures).

8 points x 30 wings = 240 points to be done (required for the Russian/Ukrainian programs).
This much one can tolerate - granted the output analysis is good enough for some practical utility. So that is where I will continue my hacking.

3 main indexes per a wing that will allow for "good enough" probability determination for the main groups of interest should be sufficient.
The main groups of interest IMO - Millifera, Caucasica, Sossimai, Ligustica, Carnica, and (ideally) Scutellata.

The same for the IdentiFly will take:
19 points x 30 wings = 570 points

(PS: though IdentiFly doc says "at least 10 workers" - unsure how sufficient that is;
just feels too low;
maybe the high # of the land-marks points per the wing is to make up the low wing #???
feels to me more wings/fewer points per a wing is a better way for non-academic uses).

240 points vs. 570 points to get a rough colony make up estimate.
AND IdentiFly requires following the special land-marking rules too.

The Rus/Ukr tools feel more like AK74-type weapons - less maintenance work required and fewer parts, but they will still shoot in the same general direction and still hit the target.

Not doing the IdentiFly. Not worth it to me. Too much work and overkill.
IdentiFly is for full-time academia, not for practical beeks and such.
That's my take.


----------



## GregB

I verified the MorphoXL tool from Ukraine is working as-is on my system and so should for everyone else too.

IF/ONCE I get permission from the owner of it - will just hang it out here.
The version I got is already pre-set to English and has a full PDF with the usage instructions (Google-translated, clearly - FYI). The tool is free for non-commercial use, but just making sure.


----------



## GregB

Here is the Ukranian tool (the public version):
Morphometry.rar

I will be working with the designer to help with the English documentation and the program improvements.
I already asked for a provision to include additional, user-defined bee races to the analysis (e.g. Scutellata could be added as a user-defined race to the standard races). 
But this is a free product and up to the producer what he will do - he does not charge for it.
If any feedback, let me know.


----------



## GregB

So, guys, does anyone know values for A. M. Scutellata similar to these used by the MorphoXL?

The best I found so far is just CI from Ruttner - not good enough.
Still need DsA and Hi ranges from reputable sources

_A. m. scutellata_ 2.52±0.46 (Ruttner 1988, Tab. 12.2) [3]


----------



## HaplozygousNut

GregV said:


> Of course, it is a hybrid.
> 
> However - a hybrid with certain average proportions of the original bees.
> For example, one of the inputs of the Primorsky bees was the Ukrainian Steppe bee (*Apis mellifera sossimai)*
> And of course, AMM, Ligustica, Caucasica (possibly Carpathica).
> 
> So if none of these together are detected in a sample (like I tested above) - these are not really Primorsky bees, seems to me.
> However, if significant presence of AMM/AMS are detected (I have not a clue how much) - then we have something to think about.
> 
> And so, be great to obtain a morpho-analysis done directly in the Primorsky region and see the original source to get some idea what to look for. Not to mention, they have local sub-populations - upland bees/lowland bees/coastal bees.
> 
> Of course, this is a very rough tool and not a replacement for genetic analysis.
> But hey - it is free, everyone can do it, and it gives some info (vs. no info).
> Especially, when someone sells "Russian" bees those "Russians" should resemble the Primorsky bees. I mean to ask for samples of dead "Russian" bees on my local bee forum and run them through.
> Will see what turns up.


GregV, I am excited that you are using the wing veining to try to identify the bee subspecies of your area in Wisconsin. About whether Russian bees would retain the same proportion of subspecies in its genes, now that they have been in the US for a while; even if the line of Russian bees have been kept pure without any outside introductions of other bee genetics, the Russian bees may change to become genetically a larger proportion of the more southern climate adapted subspecies of bees, (like the Italian bee), because the Russian Far East has very cold winters compared to most of the US here.


----------



## GregB

HaplozygousNut said:


> GregV, I am excited that you are using the wing veining to try to identify the bee subspecies of your area in Wisconsin. About whether Russian bees would retain the same proportion of subspecies in its genes, now that they have been in the US for a while; even if the line of Russian bees have been kept pure without any outside introductions of other bee genetics, the Russian bees may change to become genetically a larger proportion of the more southern climate adapted subspecies of bees, (like the Italian bee), because the Russian Far East has very cold winters compared to most of the US here.


Well, winter or not - less important.
The annual bee selling runs largely negate much of local adaptations here.

The Russian Bee Breeders Association should be maintaining the stock as close as possible to the original import.
If they do any good job, the breeding queens should be having the profiles suitably close to the originals.
And with that, the lineage should be trickling down to the end buyers (if the re-sellers are any good and honest).

Basically, why I would like to morpho-test any bees labeled or suspected - "Russian".
Then keep the better ones for myself.


----------



## William Bagwell

GregV said:


> Here is the Ukranian tool (the public version):
> Morphometry.rar
> (snips)
> If any feedback, let me know.


Thank you for finding and sharing this! 

Be awhile before I have time to learn to use it. Also doubt my current "all in one" is as good as the flat bed scanner I used to use. Will say that Morphometry will run under Wine on Linux. A bit glitchy and do not know if every thing works yet. Will also test it with Crossover (paid version of Wine) once I decide whether to buy a new version or just re-download the last one I purchased 7 years ago.


----------



## GregB

William Bagwell said:


> Will say that Morphometry will run under Wine on Linux.


Thanks.
The program designer did say this program is supposed work on Mac OS too.
He asked me to test it, but I don't do Mac OS.
Do share your experience on Linux (for feedback to the designer).


----------



## William Bagwell

GregV said:


> Do share your experience on Linux (for feedback to the designer).


Will do. Found my last two purchased Crossover versions (11 & 13) so only have to recover my license key. Will eventually buy the latest... (New computer needs to be updated first.)

Mageia 5 x86_64, Wine 1.7.30 Morphometry opens and will import pictures and mark points. Menus open as 'black boxes' but display as you scroll down. No bee wing scans yet so used a dragonfly wing as a substitute.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Well, winter or not - less important.
> The annual bee selling runs largely negate much of local adaptations here.
> 
> The Russian Bee Breeders Association should be maintaining the stock as close as possible to the original import.
> If they do any good job, the breeding queens should be having the profiles suitably close to the originals.
> And with that, the lineage should be trickling down to the end buyers (if the re-sellers are any good and honest).
> 
> Basically, why I would like to morpho-test any bees labeled or suspected - "Russian".
> Then keep the better ones for myself.


Greg,

As I understand re: the breeders keeping the line "intact"
The Russian breeders need to send in bees from each of the hives they intend to use for breeders in the spring, By fall (before winter freeze up)
These are then "tested" to determine if the queens are pure, and "allowed" to be breeders in the spring.
The person I spoke with was a breeder, he stated he needed to send in 10-12 hives of bees to test ,to have 6 he could use in the spring, at some cost to himself. He would lose 1 or 2 to winter, and if the survivors would supersede or swarm before breeding also loose a couple that way.

I am not sure how these were tested, I could look into it, but likely it would be "trade secrets" and not sharable.

there "may be wing data somewhere used for this, unless they smashed and used a DNA test.

GG


----------



## GregB

The local bee importers started the annual spam.
Here is one message.



> I will be offering splits from my bee yard. * Nucs and package bees from California and Georgia. * Queens, bee equipment, and advice. ........ *Package bees start early March* and into May. Splits and nucs will be mid May. ......


Another dump of almond bees is coming.


----------



## HaplozygousNut

GregV said:


> The local bee importers started the annual spam.
> Here is one message.
> 
> 
> 
> Another dump of almond bees is coming.


LOL. Non-local commercial bee genetics mixing is like spam in mail when you are trying to identify your local bee stocks!


----------



## Tigger19687

I noticed the spam of 10 of the same post on CL here also


----------



## JWPalmer

Hey Greg, I got the usb microscope yesterday. Seems to work ok for this purpose. Grabbing a bunch of dead bees from my presumed Italian hive at work to play with this evening.


----------



## GregB

JWPalmer said:


> Hey Greg, I got the usb microscope yesterday. Seems to work ok for this purpose. Grabbing a bunch of dead bees from my presumed Italian hive at work to play with this evening.


Good deal.
Me too - I have 5 samples I need do/re-do when I get to it.


----------



## JWPalmer

Well, brought the samples home and it took awhile to figure out how to get the image into the program, and some more time to put in the landmarks on ONE wing. Hit the classify button and Ничего. Couldn't even determine the group. Need to get more wings landmarked.


----------



## GregB

Keep trying.
This process is not for everyone, but it can be mastered by most anyone who is determined.
Until you manage to have images of high enough quality and learn to properly landmark - you will have a GIGO problem.

GIGO = Garbage In Garbage Out

Here is a sample of good enough image/landmarking of my 8-point production.


----------



## Gray Goose

beekeepermarcososo said:


> I got this for Christmas from my wife  What did you get? Amazon.com: Beekeeper or Beekeeping Funny Bee Lover Style Honey Gift T-Shirt: Clothing


?? you put this in several threads, ergo I will NOT read it.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> ?? you put this in several threads, ergo I will NOT read it.
> 
> GG


I already reported this as SPAM.
SPAM it is, no doubt.


----------



## msl

Circling back around to "when" No source cited, but Dr. Reed Johnson says varroa was 1st reported on AM in 1949





as does this paper https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202004.0138/v1/download again no sorcue cited


----------



## AR1

Downloaded the paper. Interesting if not much new. A few gaps. They mention briefly that the main mechanism that kills hives is the virus load, and then don't follow through with considering how that might explain the widely varying results different researchers find. Do different virii cause differing reactions in the adult bee towards the pupae? Do the pupae infected with one virus smell different from those infected by a different virus? That might explain why some bees appear resistant in one context but fail when moved to a new environment where the common local virus is different.

Another gap. Are some bees more resistant to viral diseases than others, regardless of mite load? A colony of bees might ignore mites completely but appear more tolerant because they resist the virus better. Or vice-versa. The bees, the mites and the virus all have different evolutionary trajectories that interact.


----------



## GregB

So, today I completed my mid-winter head count.
Nothing good.
Only got 3 live units left (one more bare alive I don't count).
Will report the details later.

Meanwhile, I bumped into Sol Parker's live YT talk - totally accidentally because I got YT prompt (I did not plan for it).

Well, I had to ask (starts about 1:25:00)



> Greg V
> Hi there! So what the survivability was last 2-3 years? Mine was 0% last year (meaning 15 of 15 hives died).
> Greg V
> Best survivability for me was 25-30% for me over the last 5 years (last year the worst).
> Greg V
> This year so far lost 7 out of 14 (as of last weekend).
> Greg V
> I never treat.
> Greg V
> I never buy.
> Greg V
> Wisconsin


Got no clear answer; it felt as if they would rather just move on.
See for yourself.

BTW, this was a very straight and simple question
- So what the survivability was last 2-3 years?
No need for context or pretext, and all that talk around - just give the %.
I dropped off the session after that - no time for the un-useful talk.


----------



## fieldsofnaturalhoney

GregV said:


> So what the survivability was last 2-3 years? No need for context or pretext, and all that talk around - just give the %. I dropped off the session after that - no time for the un-useful talk.


2,3, 4 to 12. “It’s impossible to answer” We can count & put a % on that. I would have thought he was running more hives than that, but maybe he was only counting one yard?


----------



## msl

It seems his numbers never got back up after leaving AR... he got crushed here in Colorado, and then it seems OR hasn't been kind to him either... his goles of selling nucs and queens just never seemed to happen despite him saying he was beekeeping full time.... 


17-18 he was hitting the speaking tour hard, in one of the videos he tells people he is a commercial beekeeper and makes his living with bees, later in the video he says he hasn't sold any bees since leaving AR... and often claims a sub 5% loss.... 
I hope he is ok...last few years he seems to struggle with basic questions... such as when he moves his grafted queen cells to nucs, or in this case he can't remember if it was this year or last year he got wiped out, loosing all of the remaining genetics form his OG stock. 

He fell off a roof summer of 2019 and broke his back, I am going to guess the bees didn't fair well with a lack of management (maybe splits?) and that contributed to his losses


----------



## GregB

And here comes the "location, location, location..." adage.
Some places in sourthern MO and AR seem favorable to TF - must be favorable to the feral pops (and the TF theory tag-along). The same does not translate to other places too well.


----------



## HaplozygousNut

GregV said:


> And here comes the "location, location, location..." adage.
> Some places in sourthern MO and AR seem favorable to TF - must be favorable to the feral pops (and the TF theory tag-along). The same does not translate to other places too well.


I am sorry to hear you lost your hives GregV. Maybe you should just try multiplying more hives? 15 hives may not be enough to work with. I heard drone flooding works pretty good for breeding your own local population of bees.

-Nathaniel Long IV


----------



## Litsinger

MSL:

Thank you for posting the research paper.



AR1 said:


> Downloaded the paper. Interesting if not much new. A few gaps. They mention briefly that the main mechanism that kills hives is the virus load, and then don't follow through with considering how that might explain the widely varying results different researchers find. Do different virii cause differing reactions in the adult bee towards the pupae? Do the pupae infected with one virus smell different from those infected by a different virus? That might explain why some bees appear resistant in one context but fail when moved to a new environment where the common local virus is different.


Good observations, AR1. In my opinion the prevailing theme of the research is the assertion that there is much that we don't collectively know about the nature and mechanism(s) that confer resistance, but that it it is likely a multi-variable response that likely differs in each population:

_'These comparative phenotypic analyses highlight the diversity of traits that appear to play roles in different surviving populations; no universal mechanism for survival emerged from this literature survey. In most cases, survival of both naturally and artificially selected populations is due to the expression of several traits that appear to collectively confer resilience to varroa infestation. This seems true for the naturally selected populations as well as for the populations specifically bred for one or several traits.'

'The diversity of A. mellifera populations with resistance or tolerance towards V. destructor, together with the fact that these populations are located in very different geographic regions, suggest that mechanisms may have evolved independently in separate populations.'

'...it is possible that such a ‘one size fits all’ marker does not exist, if different populations of honey bees are undergoing divergent evolution of varroa resistance traits – an idea that is consistent with the generally poor overlap between ‘omics studies discussed above.'

'Interestingly, studies investigating A. mellifera resistance traits in surviving populations often report multiple traits of significant value, and high variation across colonies. This suggests that it is the accumulation of multiple resistance traits that enable colonies to survive, and not one major trait.'

'This _[genetic marking]_ could result in the development of a common breeding effort to solve the varroa problem across the globe, or determine that more local approaches have to be conducted. To date, the available data suggests that the latter is most likely, since adaptation to local environments seems to play a determining role in colony survival.'_



AR1 said:


> Another gap. Are some bees more resistant to viral diseases than others, regardless of mite load? A colony of bees might ignore mites completely but appear more tolerant because they resist the virus better. Or vice-versa. The bees, the mites and the virus all have different evolutionary trajectories that interact.


In my opinion, this is an astute point. As they note in the paper:

_'Even though the ability of honey bee colonies to survive varroa without mite control stands as the ultimate goal of varroa resistance and tolerance selection, using “survival” as the only phenotype may be dangerous since it may be dependent on many other factors besides varroa. Our literature review revealed that low MPG is a common downstream result in surviving populations. This highlights three important aspects for methodological development: i) low MPG can result from many different traits operating alone or in combination; ii) it can also be influenced by many environmental and beekeeping factors; and iii) standing as a central feature of varroa-resistant populations, evaluating MPG may be the most robust phenotyping method to assess mite resistance.'

'Although clear links between these genetic findings and phenotypes in the field are currently missing, investigating the mite side of the story will help disentangle the role of the parasite traits in host resistance.'_


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> The same does not translate to other places too well.


GregV:

I am sincerely sorry to read about your continued Winter woes this year- I can imagine this is rather disappointing- though I do hope there is some information to be gleaned from the results that guide your decisions in 2021.

While I don't know too much, I have learned to be wary of the words 'aways' and 'never' (especially in beekeeping). I expect that as you continue to work diligently and learn from your experiences you will find an approach and method that works for you in your specific situation.

Best of success to you this year.

Russ


----------



## msl

GregV said:


> And here comes the "location, location, location..." adage.
> Some places in sourthern MO and AR seem favorable to TF


yes... at least on the surface. You can't deny the farther south you get from your location, the lower the overwintering losses are for both camps (TF/TX).

but run the numbers
The 4 year average (BIP "backyard" keepers ) in AR is 24% losses TX and 32% TF
MO is 20 TX and 33 TF
Wisconsin is 54% TX and 74% TF

AR TF loses are 33% higher then treating, in WI its 37% higher and in MO its 65%!!!!

So really it's not TF "failing" in your area, Its performing on par compared to other places, better then some!. 
But its just such a hard place to keep bees, the conventional losses are already well above "acceptable" losses to the point the added TF loses can become unsustainable.


----------



## HaplozygousNut

GregV said:


> Average guy in the Primorsky region is told the same - treat, treat and treat.
> 
> There are few Primorsky queen breeders who try to advertise elevated resistance - but they have little credibility (because you know - they *sell *queens). I found some sources that hint at that - the elevated resistance.
> 
> Let me mention that most locals in the Primorsky region have no clue about the differences between the A. Mellifera and A. Cerana. There were comments of those terrible "Chinese wax bees" that move into the old equipment, hot as hell, fly just above freezing - very hardy, and make no honey - just some wild, worthless honeybees per some local commentary.
> For sure, Varroa cross-pollination is going rampant in the region, I can tell from such talks.
> So yes, without selection (which is predicated on mite level monitoring) and with expert-prescribed carpet treatments - no appreciable resistance will they find.


That is very interesting about the experience with A. cerana the people had in the Primorsky region, GregV.

I have probably already shown you this before GregV, but for anyone else interested in Asian honeybees, here in this link (Китайская восковая пчела - журнал Пчеловодство), it says that the A. cerana in the Russian Far East were more gentle than their European honey bees. It also says that the Asian honey bees are very hardy in unfavorable conditions, and workers go flying outside at -12 degrees celsius (I assume just brief cleansing flights?). The honey production didn't sound too bad from their experience in the article:

Quote (translated via Google Translate):
_*"In the Primorsky Territory, before wintering, at the end of October, strong colonies of these bees living in a hollow tree had up to 40 kg of honey (Filatkin, 1992)." 
"В Приморском крае перед зимовкой, в конце октября, сильные семьи этих пчел, живущие в дупле, имели до 40 кг меда (Филаткин, 1992)."*_


Here, in another article about Apis cerana, it says that in China the Asian honey bees yield on average 15 to 20 KG of honey annually: https://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/1989/01/Apidologie_0044-8435_1989_20_1_ART0002.pdf
In the article above about Asian honeybee subspecies it writes about the different subspecies having better potential for honey production. It said that the large "ABA" Apis cerana from the high altitudes in Southwestern China were probably one of the best Asian honeybees for honey production. Also, in the A. cerana range map in the article, it looks like Apis cerana may range farther north than Primorsky region, as far north as into the Khabarovsk region. Video of Asian honeybees kept in Khabarovsk region (



). The northern subspecies may be better for honey production because they need to store a lot of honey stores for the long winters they get.

I write all this about the Asian honeybee because I think they may solve the Varroa mite problem if imported to the US. But I really don't know whether they'd cause extinctions to other species of bees or animals, because they are not native here. It would be good to see whether the European honeybee (Apis mellifera) has had a bad impact on our native species, so that we would be able to guess whether the Asian honeybee would have a bad impact on our natives, if imported to the US.



GregV said:


> I added another map that shows the main Eco-systems of the Primorsky region - sea-side (blue), forested highlands (green), steppe lowlands (beige), southern (pink). The main bee populations (per my readings) seem to be driven by these local ecosystems as the major external selection factors - so we have highland bees (green), sea-side bees (blue and pink) and lowland bees (beige).
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Primorsky_Krai#/media/File:primorsky_krai_regions.png
> The "green" and "beige" areas roughly correspond to the USDA Zone 4. The "blue" and "pink" are roughly USDA Zone 5. These Primorsky region zones match the WI USDA zones very closely - a curious fact worth mentioning. In general the Primorsky region and WI USA are very similar in the orientation to the big body of water too.
> 
> Now if we remember that the current Primorsky bees are a bag of chaotically mixed mutts (mellifera, macedonica, ligustica, caucasica, carpathica, and possibly others) - it makes sense that the ecology of the "green" region favors mellifera/caucasica traits but the "beige" region may favor the ligustica traits. So we have grey and yellow Primorsky bee groups.
> 
> Unsure what the sea-side bees would be - but per my sources, the bees from the Lazovsky sea-side district are distinct in their uniform grey exterior.
> 
> Also worth mentioning - the Primorsky bees are NOT only concentrated in the Primorsky region. Similar populations of bees are found to the North/North-West of the Primorsky region - in Habarovsky, Amursky and Chitinksy regions (and I imagine in bordering China regions!) - no one ever looked at them in the same varroa resistance context (not that I heard/read).
> But those hybrid bee populations also exist and the picture is much bigger than is commonly spoken about. For scale, the Primorsky region proper (colored in red) is very similar to WI, USA by area - as an FYI.
> 
> OK now, take this mixed bag of mutts and drop them into the Baton Rouge, USA - and watch of the resulting mess.
> Anyway..
> 
> Including the modified maps to see how the bees from all ecosystems were represented in the imported Primorsky queens.


Interesting stuff, GregV! I saw in a post you made on this topic that the beekeepers where Russian bees are from do treat for Varroa and have trouble with Varroa! I have an idea that maybe North Korea would have better Varroa resistant bees than adjacent Russia or China because the people in North Korea are poor and probably could not afford chemicals if they raised bees.


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> Issue 7/1960.
> Several pages of the Beekeeping mag issue (starting with the *front page*!) are dedicated to a propagandist letter of the regional Communist administration directed to the beekeepers of the Primorsky region.
> 
> *starting 1951 and into the 1959, *bee colony inventory in one district dropped *3.5 times*
> over the same time, in two other districts the colony inventory dropped *2.5 times*
> overall, many bee yards sharply dropped their honey production (due to local mismanagement as the "letter" is alleging)
> 
> So, "Scotty, we have a problem" - bees are dying in great numbers, honey production is in the dumps, and the local mismanagement must be the root cause.
> 
> LOL


Not 1850s-70s, but rather 1950s for first major die-offs. If so the Primorsky bees have been adapting for 70 years, not 150+. That is still a cold bath for people who think we can have strong resistance in a few years with our pet 'feral' bees.


----------



## msl

HaplozygousNut said:


> It would be good to see whether the European honeybee (Apis mellifera) has had a bad impact on our native species


Feral EHB's competition for nesting sites led to the extinction of our native parrot, the carolina parakeet that once ranged NY to FL to CO in flocks of 100s even 1,000s of birds, 









Bumble bees are dying of varroa, noxious weeds are being pollinated, native bees are being competed against Etc... yes EHBs have been bad for the environment.



HaplozygousNut said:


> I write all this about the Asian honeybee because I think they may solve the Varroa mite problem if imported to the US


you have to ask yourself why then are EHB still heavily used (and must be treated) in ACs native range.
the answer is AC in't all the talking heads want you to think, and is often treated, if its not, one of their primary defences against a varroa load (and other things) is to abscond. This works great in nature and all but to a beekeeper an abscond from varroa is the same as a death.. the net effect is the same, a empty box that needs a replacement colony, and the loss rate can be huge


> The survey on absconding was carried out in the 40 apiaries situated in 5 districts of Karnataka viz., Coorg, Shimoga, Dakshina Kannada, Uttar Kannada and Bangalore Rural (Table 1). The absconding phenomenon was common annual feature in all these apiaries. However, the absconding was more prevalent in Banhgalore Rural region which was to the extent of 54.81 per cent followed by Dakshina Kannada (46.15 per cent), Shimoga (41.86 per cent), and Coorg (37.66 per cent)





http://currentbiotica.com/CB/Journals8-Issue-II/CB-8(2)-Short-notes-1.pdf






> I spent time with some missionary friends of mine who lived in the mountains of Nepal a few years ago. We worked with the locals and the local bees-apis cerana. These bees are supposed to be the native host of varroa and are supposed to be resistant. Most of the hives are small, compared to the monster, non swarming hives we manage. Due to the nature of the monsoon and nectar flows, there was no swarming in the village hives that summer. These people live for swarms-cultural thing. The hives normally make 2KG of honey per year. We witnessed hives crashing with PMS from high varroa loads, just like most of ours will when left untreated. The beekeeper treated with apistan to try to salvage his hives. The commercial beekeepers normally kill the queens after the honey harvest , let them raise a new one and add a piece of artemesia plant (related to wormwood-has essential oils that repel and kill mites). Hence a broodless period, and a soft mite treatment. .


LISTSERV - Archives - Error - COMMUNITY.LSOFT.COM
(the link seems to be broken )



> b) The Ectoparasitic Bee Mite Varroa jacobsoni
> The bee mite Varroa jacobsoni is a parasite of Apis cerana indigenous to the entire continent of Asia. Wherever colonies of the oriental honeybees are kept, there is therefore a possibility of mite infestation. Through millions of years of being parasitized by the mite, the bees appear to have developed some degree of resistance to its attacks. Absconding is one of the colony's manners of ridding itself of the mite, or at least of those infesting the brood, which in such cases is abandoned.
> Colonies heavily infested by Varroa produce little or no honey, but most often the beekeeper can lose the entire colony when it absconds.





> Colonies of A. cerana are highly responsive to threats by the bees' natural enemies, and it is of the utmost importance for the beekeeper to make every effort to protect his colonies against attacks by bee pests. Heavy predation by hornets, ant attacks, wax-moth infestation and parasitism by bee mites are among the major problems to be dealt with. In this regard, the techniques indicated in Chapter 6 A for the protection of A. mellifera colonies apply to A. cerana colonies as well.


 Ch05

over all they are not doing as well as many think


https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0005772X.2017.1284973


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Not 1850s-70s, but rather 1950s for first major die-offs. If so the Primorsky bees have been adapting for 70 years, not 150+. That is still a cold bath for people who think we can have strong resistance in a few years with our pet 'feral' bees.


Well, keep in mind - no one ever worked on resistance selection in the Primorsky region.
It is the American folks who had the idea and approached the Russian counterparts with it - not the other way around.

In fact, they in Russia don't do this even now in any organized way that I know about (no matter how much I googled I did not find anything similar to the Russian program in the USA - just for shame).
All they do is - import some fancy Carnica "Tolerant" (TM) from Europe - all the while idly sitting on a great opportunity of their own.
Grass is always greener over the fence - nothing new.

So we are talking pretty much random situation in the Primorsky region still.
Worse yet, they indiscriminately treat the Primorsky bees - totally counter to resistance selection efforts.

If targeted selection and breeding are done - you'd see somewhat different outcomes and faster.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Status updates as of 11/09/2020 (copy/paste/modify from the above post #816 about the mite counts).
> 
> Yard #1 (backyard):
> #1 - 73 mites (24-25%) -...
> #2 - 16 (5-6%) - (F1 queen from #5).....
> #3 - 13 (4-5%) - (F1 queen from #5)
> 
> Yard #2 (0.5 miles away from the backyard):
> #4 - 37 mites (12-13%) - .......
> #5 - 9 mites (~3%) - .......
> #6 - 13 mites (4-5%) - (F1 queen from #5) .......
> 
> Yard #3 (5 miles South-West from the backyard):
> #7 - 13 (4-5%) - (F1 queen from #1) - .........
> #8 - 51 (~17%) - ...
> 
> Yard #4 (10 miles South from the backyard):
> #9 - 17 (5-6%) - ...........
> 
> Yard #5 (5 miles South-East from the backyard):
> #10 - 67 (22-23%) - .......
> #11 - 15 (~5%) - (F1 from #12). .........
> #12 - not counted - ........
> 
> Yard #6 (15 miles South-East from the backyard):
> #13 - 26 (8-9%) - ............
> 
> Yard #7 (10 miles South from the backyard):
> #14 - not counted - .........
> #15 - not counted - ... will be wintering directly in the trap hive ....


Just to put this away...
#1 - dead
#2 - dead
#3 - dead
#4 - dead
*#5 - alive*
#6 - dead
#7 - dead
#8 - dead
#9 - dead
#10 - dead
*#11 - alive*
#12 - dead (technically still alive but barely; written off)
#13 - dead
#14 - dead
*#15 - alive*
-----------------
20% still alive as of 01/17/2012


----------



## GregB

#5 has this wing profile (remember - this is a purchased F1 from the Russian/VSH breader).

Notice - NO Caucasians and not as much of the Sossimai.
Heavy on Carnica and Ligustica.
Technically, the Russians should have lots of Ukrainian bee in them and so the Sossimai is to be expected.


----------



## GregB

#2, #3 and #6 (daughters #5) - all had significant addition of "Caucasica/Sossimai" via open mating (pictured in the same order - #2, #3, #6).
This is at the expense on the Carnica side.
Whatever that "Caucasica" indicator means - every time I see it, so far this means the bees will die. This is not a good indicator for what I see so far.
The "Sossimai" indicator is supposed to mean Ukrainian bee - but I have doubts it means the same in the North America.

Will gradually analyze the rest of the dead and see what they have been about.


----------



## gww

Greg
I hope your three hives grow like gang busters. No guarantees but life gives hope.
Good luck
gww


----------



## GregB

gww said:


> Greg
> I hope your three hives grow like gang busters. No guarantees but life gives hope.
> Good luck
> gww


Long way to go yet, gww.
Last year I lost my best bees in March.


----------



## GregB

HaplozygousNut said:


> That is very interesting about the experience with A. cerana the people had in the Primorsky region, GregV.


Let me just say - our approach to just call them all A. cerana is probably misguided.
We have all kinds and sub-kinds of A. millifera with a wide range of traits.
And yet we call A. cerana just that - Cerana.

Let me guess, there are many populations and sub-populations of Apis Cerana and they are all different in some ways.
Clearly some of them survive the severe cold and long winters of the Russian Far East (~USDA 2-3) and then the others are basically tropical bees down in China somewhere. 

Inconsistent descriptions of these bees are to be expected as they live across the huge area and many various habitats.


----------



## msl

GregV said:


> Just to put this away...


ouch..

looking at your software output I was confused by the volume of sossomai you are seeing and the lack of AMM

Did a little digging and it seems Sossomai not AMM (as many say) was the base stock for Primorsky, and sossomai seems to be a carnica drivitivtie with morpho tools often confusing the 2



> Primorsky honey bees, which are common in the
> Primorye and Khabarovsk territories of Russia, have
> their origin from the Ukrainian steppe race of honey
> bees (A.m. sossimai [1]), brought frequently by Ukrai
> nian migrants in the late 19th and early 20th centuries
> [2]. A significant influence on the evolution of the Pri
> morsky honeybee population had a random crossing
> with A.m. caucasica bees in 1930, along with A.m. ligustica
> and A.m. remipes bees, leading to the development of different hybrids [3]. There is no clar
> ity about the origin of the Ukrainian steppe race; how
> ever, most of the authors classify it as one of the grossly
> altered ecotypes of A.m. carnica subspecies based on a number of morphological traits





> Thus, the results of this study show that the Novosi birsk population of Primorsky bees has a high degree
> of genetic diversity and, as a hybrid, is closely related to the Carniolan breed. Given that Primorsky bees
> have originated from the Ukrainian steppe race, our findings are an indirect confirmation of the close
> relationship of Ukrainian steppe and Carniolan races











(PDF) Genetic differentiation of the Novosibirsk population of Primorsky honey bee


PDF | Seven microsatellite loci were evaluated to compare the allele pool of Primorsky honeybee population (n = 90), which was introduced into the... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net





anyway I thought your would find the % of each race in the hybrids laid out in the paper possibly use full


----------



## AR1

HaplozygousNut said:


> That is very interesting about the experience with A. cerana the people had in the Primorsky region, GregV.


I have a strong interest in cerana bees because there is a good chance I will return to Japan in a few years. My wife has been advocating for that since her whole family is there except me and the kids. She has a friend there whose family keeps bees (mellifera) so I'd have an 'in'.

I am curious to see what some swarm trapping might produce, but of course she is a big city girl and wouldn't want the little rural house that I would prefer. On the other hand she is very conservative with money, and rural homes in Japan are amazingly cheap. Japanese have a very strong cultural bias against rural life. Maybe I could talk her into getting a 'vacation' home...


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> 20% still alive as of 01/17/2012


GregV:

I am sorry to read this- I'll spare you any platitudes, but I do hate that this year has been another disappointing survival year for you.

I will however look forward to reading where you go from here with your beekeeping efforts.

Russ


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> looking at your software output I was confused by the volume of sossomai you are seeing and the lack of AMM


I am aware and this is expected.
What I did not expect - the apparent over-reporting of Sossimai.
Even heavily Carnica-leaning bee is supposed to have a lot of Sossimai in it - I have my doubts.
I suspect the MorphoXL tool calibration has to do with it but not touching anything until I know better.

Here is representation of the #1 (reportedly Carnica, in reality Carnica hybrid).
Tool reports lots of Sossimai presense too; I say BS.

Look how the Index ranges overlap as defined - one can call most any bee "Carnica" and will be correct to a degree. But one needs to compute the distributions and probabilities based on the ranges to have more definitive idea of the sub-species' presense. 

Most all wings I looked at so far fall into the intersection of Carnica/Ligustica/Sossimai pre-defined ranges - and so the Sossimai is almost always reported. How true? Who knows.

I started googling a bit about the Ukrainian bee CI's - the definitions are all over the place.
Who to trust? Go figure.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> I am sorry to read this- I'll spare you any platitudes, but I do hate that this year has been another disappointing survival year for you.
> 
> I will however look forward to reading where you go from here with your beekeeping efforts.
> 
> Russ


Am afraid this is the reality of my location.

I could spend hundreds of $$$ annually buying and importing and propagating resistant queens here (which I will NOT do anyway) - but the local bee traffickers will still run me over with their almond bees.

It maybe the niche of a local "bee garbage man" is the way to go.
Ultimately, there have to be the garbage people for everything.
It works for me just as well in terms of bang for the buck.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> It works for me just as well in terms of bang for the buck.


This I can appreciate- and if it is working for you, that is what really matters at the end of the day.


----------



## Gino45

GregV said:


> Let me just say - our approach to just call them all A. cerana is probably misguided.
> We have all kinds and sub-kinds of A. millifera with a wide range of traits.
> And yet we call A. cerana just that - Cerana.
> 
> Let me guess, there are many populations and sub-populations of Apis Cerana and they are all different in some ways.
> Clearly some of them survive the severe cold and long winters of the Russian Far East (~USDA 2-3) and then the others are basically tropical bees down in China somewhere.
> 
> Inconsistent descriptions of these bees are to be expected as they live across the huge area and many various habitats.


Interesting thoughts about Cerana variation. I will say this, again. I have been to several Asian countries, observed various 'flowers' in bloom and I've always been surprised at how few bees I see working them. Often there are none, and that is not just in the cities.


----------



## Gino45

GregV said:


> Just to put this away...
> #1 - dead
> #2 - dead
> #3 - dead
> #4 - dead
> *#5 - alive*
> #6 - dead
> #7 - dead
> #8 - dead
> #9 - dead
> #10 - dead
> *#11 - alive*
> #12 - dead (technically still alive but barely; written off)
> #13 - dead
> #14 - dead
> *#15 - alive*
> -----------------
> 20% still alive as of 01/17/2012


Okay, lots of dead hives. What caused them to die?


----------



## GregB

Gino45 said:


> Okay, lots of dead hives. What caused them to die?


Combination of not-treating, highly mite-susceptible bees, and the bees that don't really belong here in general.

For example, around here bees should not be brooding into the winter as if no winter is coming.
The September/October bees should be the final winter bees and no more brood until March.

But yet they do brood (which not only wears the winter bees out way early, but also continues the mite propagation cycle).
The best winter bees should have done nothing in their live until spring - no foraging and no brood raising. Brood raising is the most life shortening activity that the bees do.

Most of the bees I had were still alive and looking well after the Thanksgiving.
I also had no insulation whatsoever until December so to force the cold hives and stop the brooding.
And yet all that time most colonies continued brooding, according to what I found during the early January round.


----------



## Gino45

My next question is: do you feed the bees


GregV said:


> Combination of not-treating, highly mite-susceptible bees, and the bees that don't really belong here in general.
> 
> For example, around here bees should not be brooding into the winter as if no winter is coming.
> The September/October bees should be the final winter bees and no more brood until March.
> 
> But yet they do brood (which not only wears the winter bees out way early, but also continues the mite propagation cycle).
> The best winter bees should have done nothing in their live until spring - no foraging and no brood raising. Brood raising is the most life shortening activity that the bees do.
> 
> Most of the bees I had were still alive and looking well after the Thanksgiving.
> I also had no insulation whatsoever until December so to force the cold hives and stop the brooding.
> And yet all that time most colonies continued brooding, according to what I found during the early January round.


Ok....do you feed your bees? That would stimulate brood production.

If you don't feed, I suggest introducing some carniolan queens..preferably from a source where the offspring are not half italian. In my climate, the carniolans I tried were very slow to brood up. They seemed to be need longer day length to start brood production. Or raise your own queens from the ones that are more in tune with the climate.

As far as mite susceptibility, it seems to me that you should be improving in that regard every year as the 'susceptible' ones are eliminated.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Combination of not-treating, highly mite-susceptible bees, and the bees that don't really belong here in general.
> 
> For example, around here bees should not be brooding into the winter as if no winter is coming.
> The September/October bees should be the final winter bees and no more brood until March.
> 
> But yet they do brood (which not only wears the winter bees out way early, but also continues the mite propagation cycle).
> The best winter bees should have done nothing in their live until spring - no foraging and no brood raising. Brood raising is the most life shortening activity that the bees do.
> 
> Most of the bees I had were still alive and looking well after the Thanksgiving.
> I also had no insulation whatsoever until December so to force the cold hives and stop the brooding.
> And yet all that time most colonies continued brooding, according to what I found during the early January round.


Hi Greg,
Sorry to see your loss of hives.

One item I was pondering is the "brooding" Something I read in the past 6 months, sorry I cannot place it, stated that the late brooding was an attempt to compensate for the "perceived" bee loss to the colony.
So the late brooding is a Symptom IMO of bee loss. But you are correct the mites just use it to keep on keeping on.

Consider the late brooding as a symptom of issues, rather the cause of the issues.
I may be off base here, others can offer their experiences as well.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Consider the late brooding as a symptom of issues, rather the cause of the issues.
> I may be off base here, others can offer their experiences as well.


Yes, I am aware and it maybe a case sometimes.
Though some (I did not check all) colonies have been brooding a during the October/November checks too.
Just a frame or two - but that alone is a problem.
Good bees should just stop this non-sense in October cold.


----------



## GregB

Gino45 said:


> My next question is: do you feed the bees
> 
> Ok....do you feed your bees? That would stimulate brood production.
> 
> If you don't feed, I suggest introducing some carniolan queens..preferably from a source where the offspring are not half italian. In my climate, the carniolans I tried were very slow to brood up. They seemed to be need longer day length to start brood production. Or raise your own queens from the ones that are more in tune with the climate.
> 
> As far as mite susceptibility, it seems to me that you should be improving in that regard every year as the 'susceptible' ones are eliminated.


Of course I feed some of the bees to "fatten" them up for the winter *in season *- case by case.
Which you can observe on the pictures I posted - they all were fully stocked for the winter.

Of course I don't feed the bees any liquids into the winter - too cold anyway.




> ..... I suggest introducing some carniolan queens......
> Or raise your own queens from the ones that are more in tune with the climate.


Gino, what do you think I have been posting about just the last summer?

Yep - about raising my own queens from a mite-resistant breeder queen (still alive).
Which I have done.
And yes - the daughers too died anyway (most like due to out-crossing with the undesired drones).
And that what the wing analysis pics are about, hanging just about - the out-crossing is significant enough and, apparently, is no good (#1023/#1024 above).


----------



## crofter

Even if you find or develop some resistance it might have a hard time expressing itself with such a high background level of non resistant bees. I think none are mite proof bees. You might have to help them out to break the cycle. I had one nuc of my first 6 that was just going nowhere. The queen was laying well but the workers were opening cells. Very vsh. For some reason that one nuc had a very heavy mite load. At that time I treated with hop guard and in two weeks the capping pattern was going solid and they took off. Not the fault of the genetics. They were just in an impossible situation beyond their control.


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## GregB

crofter said:


> I think none are mite proof bees.
> The queen was laying well but the workers were opening cells. Very vsh.


Will see how my #5 holds.
She was placed with a dump of highly susceptible young bees from #1 and is still holding her own.
The laying pattern was mediocre too and the build-up was poor (due to brood removal I think).
I had to feed.
But this is what was expected.


----------



## crofter

GregV said:


> Will see how my #5 holds.
> She was placed with a dump of highly susceptible young bees from #1 and is still holding her own.
> The laying pattern was mediocre too and the build-up was poor (due to brood removal I think).
> I had to feed.
> But this is what was expected.


The wild cards of 20 or more varieties of bee virus plus bacterial invaders and weather conditions, bring so much unpredictability into the varroa handling picture. What is tolerable in one instance can quickly turn sour. So hard to accurately and endurably develop or attribute tolerance in a certain queen. Was it 1000 colonies Scientific Beekeeping used for one mite resistance experiment?


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## GregB

crofter said:


> Was it 1000 colonies Scientific Beekeeping used for one mite resistance experiment?


Well, yes - when they are trying to create a new line* from a scratch*.
I don't. 
I bought a ready line.


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## crofter

GregV said:


> Well, yes - when they are trying to create a new line* from a scratch*.
> I don't.
> I bought a ready line.


Predictive analysis does improve though, with a larger sampling. #5 is only _one_ from that line, no?


----------



## msl

GregV said:


> I bought a ready line.


IIRR you bought a queen made form a production queen, so a f-2 from breeder queen.. no surprise the f3 (with f-4 works force) didn't make it, especially in mitebomb city
russians resistance is well know for fragging out f-2 f-3. 
small scale as it is, your results fit well with that of others. you get 1, some times 2 generations down the road from a production queen and you lose traites big time, not just mite resistance but all traites, especially with dealing with a hybrid like Russian or buckfast... I know buckfast keepers who requeen regularly with purchased queens to maintain honey performance..their bottom line was at $40 a queen the hives made much more honey($$) and they got a good ROI vs what they got with mutts/outcrosses. 

again super small sample size, and you have no idea how your queens sisters performed. Not your style, but you may do well buying one of those production queens (that produced you queen) every year to use as a breeder till you start seeing 2 winter survival in your operation and can select one of your own. problem is those production queens may be highly varibuil as well and may not produce as good offspring as the one you got.....


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## trishbookworm

Randy Oliver has a series about nosema management, which he attributes in part to moisture problems. One way bees deal with excess moisture is to raise brood. 








The Nosema Problem: Part 7C - The Prevention of Dysentery - Scientific Beekeeping


Contents Review.. 1 Balancing moisture elimination and heat loss. 2 Broodrearing in the winter cluster. 3 So let’s do the arithmetic!. 5 Practical applications. 5 Optimal Cluster size. 5 Winter stores ― honey and beebread. 8 Hive placement. 8 Hive insulation. 9 Hive ventilation. 10 Literature...




scientificbeekeeping.com




It may be there is something about the hive construction that leads to moisture building up. Brother Adam used frames that were 12" tall, and he removed frames in Winter so the bees only had 8 of 11. He added them back in Spring. It may be that adopting a similar strategy could tip the balance for some colonies.

Also the best success we have seen documented for overwintering hives with Varroa has come from Seeley's work documented here - Apidologie (2017) 48:743–754 pm me for copy of paper. Figure dealing with "simulated" (ie swarms dumped in 1 deep and then watched for several years) hives is below. Note that blue (1st year, or "founder") and green (2nd yr+, or established) means colonies were alive at one of the 3 time points checked, red is dead. Looking at the 1st 5, top of figure, survival over 4 years is as follows:
2011/2012 4/5
2012/2013 3/5
2013/2014 2/4 made it to end of year
2014/2015 1/2 made it to end of year.

I bring this paper up because these colonies' brood nests are kept quite small. I've kept a few hives in a single deep, without supers, either to harvest brood or because the lack of nectar flow meant no need to worry about swarming. Those hives used the space quite differently - they had eggs on like 4 or 5 combs, in fact brood in almost all stages on almost all combs. Of course the outer frames were stores, and the top inch or so was stores, but it really seemed like the queens just did not stay in one area to lay. This will slow her laying. Also the surface area open for eggs (and hence larvae and varroa) was smaller - more than half smaller than you'd expect from a double deep.

Might be another strategy to try - look at forcing the queen to occupy the equivalent of 8 frames and no more for brood. Maybe it's easier for the bees to keep ahead of the mites then.


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## GregB

msl said:


> IIRR you bought a queen made form a production queen, so a f-2 from breeder queen..


Yes, F2 for sure.

CORRECTION (just checked my emails):


> The F0 queen you got from me would be an F1 daughter from my breeder......My F0 is a russian X VSH cross.


This means I got F1 from the breeder queen (not F2).

We have to agree - I bought a "new line" for *my own little operation*.
What else do I mean?
Nothing else.
By no mean I ever meant I am breeding something.... eh, worthwhile selling nation-wide. LOL
Just playing with bees in my 10 square mile box.

Just like people buying your queens.
Do they buy production queens in huge batches and repeat this annually?
Buying the "production queens", you know?
Or do they buy 1-2 new queens *to start a "new line" in their back yard as they view it*?
I want to think this is predominantly the latter.


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> Predictive analysis does improve though, with a larger sampling. #5 is only _one_ from that line, no?


Pretty much what I said to MSL.
Why bother buying 1-2 queens of a desired trait?

A backyard guy buys 1-2 queens to play with them in the backyard and, hopefully, start "a new backyard line". Ideally, many beeks in the vicinity do the same - *a real possibility* if the seller is local and works the market.

Btw, I will help advertising my queen seller in the season 2021 around my own vicinity so, hopefully, he sells more. I am actually working with him on some related projects.

Do you suggest the backyard guy goes all in and buys 50 queens?
So to make a difference, you know? 
That is a too much money and is not going to work.

Or you suggest to not even bother buying 1-2 queens?
(because it does not matter anyway)
Well, IF 20-30 people each buy 1-2 queens from the same seller in my vicinity - that is something.

Either way, the queen-sellers (including the TF queen-sellers) would argue it is good to buy their queens (even if only 1-2).
Why would anyone buy MSL's queens if it does not matter anyway in the long run (even short run)?


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## msl

missing the point
What you bought lived (so far/longer) the offspring failed.. this suggests you need to get one gen closer to the source genetics if you want to propagate from it... in short the photo copy of the photocopy, of the photocopy is too blurry to read... you need to buy the 1st photo copy so when you make the 2nd its readable.




GregV said:


> Buying the "production queens", you know?
> Or do they buy 1-2 new queens to start a "new line" in their back yard?
> I want to think this is predominantly the latter.


I think you may be out of touch with the market, your a rarity. If it was the latter the "traffickers" as you call them wouldn't have such a big market

they are buying production queens and continue to buy production queens.
most don't run a "line"
most don't make their own queens heck most don't make their own replacements... 
They just buy a package when they need a replacement colony, they buy a new queen when they need a new queen. if they do a split they often buy a queen to get the head start instead of letting it raise its own..
In the rare case they make their own queens they are not relying on any of the traits for the hives survival, or their financial survival. 
For many a queen is a queen is a queen is a queen and beyond the "name" they payed for, There sample size is too small to know the difference vs exterior influences. the only thing they notice is aggression, and many of the "hot" hives I have visited were pussy cats comparted to some of mine

The queen you bought is just a queen, not a breeder, .. You have tested her daughters and they failed, so you don't need to waste any more time on her if she lives, she doesn't have enuff of the right stuff to pass on to her offspring and will only be ever good for production.

Its worth noting that her daughters did much better on the mite counts then your others, showing you genetic resistance, but its wasn't enough to keep them alive.. in a breeding program they may have been worth retaining with treatments as they were definitely better then your stock collected from the background, but that's not your thing.

Its also telling you that given the backgrounds performance, you are unlikely to see improvement improvement in outcross, they will get worse each generation with out mating control

so
thoughts to mull over winter
You need a new "line" then as your current one is a dead end...a breeder queen to make queens from this year, where is it going to come from?
currently you are having a average success rate for TF in your area, what are you going to do to change it.( maybe CVHs?, pressing all brood around mid aug followed by a powdered sugar dusting,etc..)

or Say screw it, overwintering TF is to hard in your location and just dubble down on swarm traps?


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> missing the point
> What you bought lived (so far/longer) the offspring failed.. this suggests you need to get one gen closer to the source genetics if you want to propagate from it... in short the photo copy of the photocopy, of the photocopy is too blurry to read... you need to buy the 1st photo copy so when you make the 2nd its readable.


I did a CORRECTION above.
I already have an F1 from the $1000 breeder.
About the best one can do.
Obviously, NOT buying a $1000 queen for myself.

If things work out, will get a sample of bees produced by the breeder itself for wing analysis.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> pressing all brood around mid aug


The idea of testing (and potentially pressing) the very first brood after the brood breaks/queen changes is one method I brought up already. 
Had I done this the results could have been different.
I think this is a valid bio-tech tool while getting a high-grade food supplement product.
To be tried out.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> Say screw it, overwintering TF is to hard in your location and just dubble down on swarm traps?


I am here to say - being a "bee garbage man" makes good economic sense.
It actually works in terms of dollars and cents.
Not to mention, the products you'd produce will be honestly "chemical free" - no BUTs and no IFs about it (and no complicated explanations are needed regarding the Oxalic Acid).

Ironically, the MORE they dump garbage bees in the area, the MORE economic sense it makes to be a "garbage man". 
I am all for free garbage from pure economy stand point.


----------



## Gino45

GregV said:


> .
> I already have an F1 from the $1000 breeder.
> About the best one can do.
> Obviously, NOT buying a $1000 queen for myself.
> 
> If things work out, will get a sample of bees produced by the breeder itself for wing analysis.


Getting resistant bees is very difficult. Good decision not buying a $1000 queen. 

I keep breeding from my survivors. I'd like to think my bees are getting better, but I don't know how to objectively analyze this. Thus far, if I don't treat, they don't survive the winter. If I do treat, some do survive for sure. They just don't stand a chance in an area with a dense bee population.

Obviously, I do not control what drones are available to my queens. I'd say that 90% of the drones in my area are from queen producers as the area is loaded with their bees. So all I can do is breed from the best queens that survive the winter.


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## GregB

Gino45 said:


> Getting resistant bees is very difficult........


Not really.
I just posted an example above about getting an F1 from the breeder.
I can get more of the F1s if I want.
Maybe I will even will get more F1s in 2021, if I can do it in a cost-neutral way.

The real issue is - maintaining the resistant bees due to very quick cross-breeding with the garbage bees (what we are discussing).


----------



## HaplozygousNut

msl said:


> Feral EHB's competition for nesting sites led to the extinction of our native parrot, the carolina parakeet that once ranged NY to FL to CO in flocks of 100s even 1,000s of birds,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bumble bees are dying of varroa, noxious weeds are being pollinated, native bees are being competed against Etc... yes EHBs have been bad for the environment.
> 
> 
> you have to ask yourself why then are EHB still heavily used (and must be treated) in ACs native range.
> the answer is AC in't all the talking heads want you to think, and is often treated, if its not, one of their primary defences against a varroa load (and other things) is to abscond. This works great in nature and all but to a beekeeper an abscond from varroa is the same as a death.. the net effect is the same, a empty box that needs a replacement colony, and the loss rate can be huge
> 
> 
> 
> http://currentbiotica.com/CB/Journals8-Issue-II/CB-8(2)-Short-notes-1.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LISTSERV - Archives - Error - COMMUNITY.LSOFT.COM
> (the link seems to be broken )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ch05
> 
> over all they are not doing as well as many think
> 
> 
> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0005772X.2017.1284973


That is a lot of great info msl! Thank you for writing to me all this! I knew about the Carolina parakeet and was very sad to hear it was extinct. I didn't know that it was honeybees taking their nesting hollows in trees that killed them! 

About absconding and Varroa susceptibility in Apis cerana:

*The subspecies of Asian honeybee may have something to do with these problems. Like with African bees absconding more than European bees, the more tropical Asian honeybee subspecies may have the strong tendency to abscond.

*I am thinking the reason why those people in Nepal were having problems with Varroa in Apis cerana was because their subspecies of Apis cerana is possibly not native to the virulent Russian/Korean Varroa strain. 

It struck me as odd that Apis cerana would be susceptible to Varroa, which is a native pest to Apis cerana. So that is why I am looking for explanations as to why those people in Nepal have such bad Varroa issues.


Yes, like the European honeybee, the Asian honey has its own share of problems, I think. Here is a video of how the sacbrood virus killed much of the population of Asian honeybees in South Korea:




Hopefully the Asian honeybees have resistance to the new virus if enough time has passed.

I could be wrong and the Asian honeybee not work as well as I think, compared to the European bee we have currently. As people say, the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. lol

Sicnerely, Nathaniel Long IV


----------



## GregB

So I was watching a YT - one of the follow-up videos from the guys where I learned the wing analysis.
No need to watch, but this one - 




This was about some conclusions about side-by-side 2 year trials they did for Carnica/Buckfast/Carpathica/Millefera.

Short resume - they have no clue what is going on as the bees behaved in unpredictable variety of ways. Variance was huge within even a single breed groups. Some behaved as promised and yet the others were totally opposite to the specs. And everything in between.

I took a screenshot of one great demo I just loved.
Basically, It shows how much honey each colony brought in for the season and the breed group averages.
The part I loved the most:

turned out the *best honey producers* for this study were the colonies of *unknown mutts and random swarms* (jokingly he said F100s group)
these are the colonies at the very bottom of the list (#49, 11, 52, 42, 14).
colonies #11, 14, 52 are marked as "formerly sick"
#11 - emergency queen
The guy was puzzled how the least pedigreed, unremarkable colonies turned out the best bees of the season after the two years of this "breed study" that they did.
Just LOL.
So much for the breeding part.


----------



## msl

GregV said:


> The idea of testing (and potentially pressing) the very first brood after the brood breaks/queen changes is one method I brought up already.
> Had I done this the results could have been different.


you had, I wanted to remind you of it, and make the note that you may need to find a end of summer action so that winter bees are reared cleaned and live linger 



GregV said:


> I did a CORRECTION above.


got ya... I had gone back an reread the post and it had sounded like you had gotten one locally from someone who made them off a production queen...

but the point still stands... the f2 out crosses fails with local mating



GregV said:


> I already have an F1 from the $1000 breeder.


$300 breeder Order – Olympic Wilderness Apiary



GregV said:


> Maybe I will even will get more F1s in 2021, if I can do it in a cost-neutral way.


sell 10 queens and the breeder is paid for and you get all the f-1s you can make for free 😉


----------



## Gino45

GregV said:


> Not really.
> I just posted an example above about getting an F1 from the breeder.
> I can get more of the F1s if I want.
> Maybe I will even will get more F1s in 2021, if I can do it in a cost-neutral way.
> 
> The real issue is - maintaining the resistant bees due to very quick cross-breeding with the garbage bees (what we are discussing).


Apples to oranges: My statement was about raising your own resistant queen breeders. As I said before, perhaps they can be had outside from someone who has control of their situation. I do not. Furthermore, in my state importation of bees (queens) is prohibited. Artificial insemination anyone? That's one more specialty which I have no interest in pursuing.

And long ago I had random (feral) mutts. They were way inferior. When a domestic strain Italian queen was mated over them, the resulting bees performed well. They were also very agressive towards the beekeeper and not fun to work with once a hive reached production strangth.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> $300 breeder Order – Olympic Wilderness Apiary


I should really do this - "~$1000".
My seller did buy some Russian queen(s) for about $1000 (what he said).
Not my line though.


----------



## GregB

Gino45 said:


> Apples to oranges:


Got ya.


----------



## msl

GregV said:


> what he said


Most expensive I know of is Latshaw (TF) at $590, minimum order of 4
VP (TF) is $250-$275 depending on the line
Harbo is $300
new river is $300
really tho there has to be some on local doing good work you could get from?




GregV said:


> I should really do this


I would spend a year to get your grafting skills up to par to maximize things when you get her and pick a few hives to remove form food production and hit hard with OA to get your winter survival up so you have resources to work with come spring... last thing you want is your investment to show up after a 100% loss winter (you have to order way a head) and have no bees/stuck waiting on swarms


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## William Bagwell

msl said:


> Most expensive I know of is Latshaw (TF) at $590, minimum order of 4
> VP (TF) is $250-$275 depending on the line
> Harbo is $300
> new river is $300
> really tho there has to be some on local doing good work you could get from?


Trying to convince a coworker to give II a try. Strong agriculture background and while not a beekeeper, he has been around them. I know everyone is all  His side gig is a cattle AI technician. Scope, cryogenic storage tank, other (mostly useless to II) stuff...

Have shown him similar price lists to above and he was somewhat interested. He also does embryo transplants (That was not a technician at the farm thing when I fooled with cattle ~25 years ago!) He was pursuing an apprenticeship to combine the two and do in vitro fertilization. Think that fell through... Roughly half my age, yet old enough that wrassiling with a cow for two hours and making $20 when he should have done ten and made $200 and been far less tired. (Showed me the green stain on his undershirt the next morning, I did not have to ask what it was) So, should I keep trying to convince him?


----------



## msl

it's not the II "skill" that adds value or pays....like grafting its fairly easy to learn if you prioritize it 
It's having the genetic stock worth the II process, Ie seamen form that prized bull is worth a lot, but from the random one down the street isn't
IE VP sells seamen at $1 a UL so about $80 for enuff to inseminate one queen


----------



## Gray Goose

William Bagwell said:


> Trying to convince a coworker to give II a try. Strong agriculture background and while not a beekeeper, he has been around them. I know everyone is all  His side gig is a cattle AI technician. Scope, cryogenic storage tank, other (mostly useless to II) stuff...
> 
> Have shown him similar price lists to above and he was somewhat interested. He also does embryo transplants (That was not a technician at the farm thing when I fooled with cattle ~25 years ago!) He was pursuing an apprenticeship to combine the two and do in vitro fertilization. Think that fell through... Roughly half my age, yet old enough that wrassiling with a cow for two hours and making $20 when he should have done ten and made $200 and been far less tired. (Showed me the green stain on his undershirt the next morning, I did not have to ask what it was) So, should I keep trying to convince him?


No

you can lead a horse to water......
One would need an internal drive to do this activity. "Talked" into bee breeders' are not going to last or have "intent" in the game.

great you showed him a path, IF he chooses to follow it you can offer help, Dragging him down it, is not a viable solution IMO

GG


----------



## William Bagwell

msl said:


> IE VP sells seamen at $1 a UL so about $80 for enuff to inseminate one queen


Boggle. Back in the mid 90s bull seamen was around $7 per straw, 5 straw minimum per. Had it (5 Angus 5 Scotch Highland) sent directly to the AI technician. Young guy just starting out which is how we got our tiny heard of 4 AI'd. Wondered for years if he ever used up our left overs...

@ GG understand. Was not going to twist his arm or anything like that. Probably should have phrased it differently. He is interested in bees, but in the context of "Hey, I have these leased pastures, I should put some hives on them". Has not brought up II since I suggested it to him months ago, but has bees in general without me starting the conversation.


----------



## Gray Goose

William Bagwell said:


> Boggle. Back in the mid 90s bull seamen was around $7 per straw, 5 straw minimum per. Had it (5 Angus 5 Scotch Highland) sent directly to the AI technician. Young guy just starting out which is how we got our tiny heard of 4 AI'd. Wondered for years if he ever used up our left overs...
> 
> @ GG understand. Was not going to twist his arm or anything like that. Probably should have phrased it differently. He is interested in bees, but in the context of "Hey, I have these leased pastures, I should put some hives on them". Has not brought up II since I suggested it to him months ago, but has bees in general without me starting the conversation.


ok then, understood.
With "pastures" and good sites,, bees can be a additional piece with out much extra work.

GG


----------



## crofter

There are many people who would be gracious hosts to bee hives but not want to devote the time to learning how to do it justice. Nothing wrong with that. I am getting to the stage of enjoying the thinking about it more so than the actuality of working numerous colonies in the heat of summer.

I woosed out on looking after cows about 10 years ago. Did the AI thing with Irish Dexters but the price of maintaining my own liquid nitrogen tank made it impractical. The neighbors red angus bull was very willing and capable! It was an intersting diversion though.


----------



## HaplozygousNut

GregV said:


> I should really do this - "~$1000".
> My seller did buy some Russian queen(s) for about $1000 (what he said).
> Not my line though.


GregV, I don't think it is necessary that you buy a breeder queen that is expensive! Do you know of this topic about DYI artificial insemination? The people on this forum are writing about how they made their own _*Instrumental Insemination equipment (Instrumental Insemination Equipment). *_I was very excited when I found people making their own when I was searching for ways to do queen insemination more cheaply. One user, Teplov (from Ukraine), on that topic made his own and his son has them for sale for about $300. You would probably have to buy the regulator and CO2 gas canister separately, but still it is a lot cheaper than the other artificial insemination equipment that I have seen for sale online. As to the quality, I wouldn't know, but there are probably some people on this forum that would know more about it.

Also, there is a bee breeder in northwestern Ohio, (Mikes Bees and Honey, Home of Quality Queen bees, Nucleus Colonies, Pure Fresh Honey, Beeswax Bars, Observation Hives and Honeybee Removal Services.), that does artificial insemination. He drone floods, too. I don't remember for sure, but I think he doesn't use any Varroa treatments, and is successful. I talked to him on the phone a few times, and he seemed knowledgeable about bees.

We have bought some queens from Mike in Ohio before. The first two colonies we bought in summer grew with sugar syrup feeding and I was eager to multiply, so we bought 5 queens from Mike in Ohio. I think they were pretty good for Varroa resistance. I didn't get a chance to see how they did a whole season because I unintentionally killed them, or lost them. I moved the colonies of Mike's queens on top of a strong colony a distance away to overwinter (I had read that the heat from a strong colony below helps weak colonies overwinter). I put them in a queen hotel on top of the strong colony, and they would not fit because there were too many frames of honey (sugar syrup honey). So I took out all their honey frames, and left the brood frames with only a little honey on top of the brood. One colony did survive till April with only a few dozen bees. Most of the bees were lost when I moved the colonies. They clustered at the spot where their hives were and got lost and probably froze from the cold nights. It was fall and was my first year with bees.

One or two hives of Mike's queens I left alone, and they overwintered well. The Carniolan queen had a very dark colony (mostly black bees), and were the most gentle colony I have ever had. I went into the Carniolan colony without smoke and just a T-shirt. I even dropped a frame of brood and bees without causing a attack (I had no smoke or veil when I dropped the frame. Veils help to keep bees from launching attacks because the bees cannot see your face). They were the calmest bees I have had. I believe this is a sign that his drone flooding works. So you might be able to get field mated queens from Mike in Ohio that are as good as an artificially inseminated breeder queen because his drone flooding could be working!

The Russian colony from Mike's queen was superceded in Spring (probably February). But still seemed to not have Varroa or trachael mites badly from the best I could tell at the time (I was still a novice beekeeper).

I have also bought queens from other breeders before, but did not get all pure queens. We bought some Caucasian queens from Old Sol apiaries in Oregon, but one came a golden queen, and another a stripped queen. The stripped queen was a "hot" hive, which suggests it was a recent mixing of different subspecies of bees, hybrid vigor causes the aggression from what I have read. But, Old Sol probably does have true/pure Caucasian from Sue Cobey's line. Just that something happened, possibly a Caucasian queen cell was replaced by a queen cell from the mating nuc.

We have also bought from another breeder in Ohio that had artificially inseminated breeding of Sue Cobey's Carniolan line. One queen was golden with a black tip and another was dark, but had a little bit of light coloration (which still could be normal variation for the A. m. carnica). The workers of these colonies were light in colour, so I think they did not drone flood well.

So the breeder you buy queens from probably matters very much to how good the queens will be. Mike is in northwestern Ohio, where it is a good deal colder in winter than the queen breeders in California, but it is not as cold as where you are in Dane county Wisconsin, GregV. So I am not sure that they are the best for your area. Hopefully your bees will gain Varroa resistance and good overwintering as you breed them several generations down, so that bee breeding will not be necessary for you anymore!

-Nathaniel Long

*Edit: $300 for the breeder queen in Olympic Wilderness Apiaries is not as bad as $1000. Sorry, I thought you were thinking about buying a $1000 breeder queen. $300 may not be too bad, not sure... depends on the quality of their breeding.*


----------



## GregB

HaplozygousNut said:


> GregV, I don't think it is necessary that you buy a breeder queen that is expensive!


Regardless, I will not buy anything over $35-50 (IF that).
Not my program anyway.
Not why I chase bees.

PS: I guess, once I have some bees handy, I start playing with them a little bit and that confuses people.


----------



## GregB

HaplozygousNut said:


> So the breeder you buy queens from probably matters very much to how good the queens will be. Mike is in northwestern Ohio, where it is a good deal colder in winter than the queen breeders in California, but it is not as cold as where you are in Dane county Wisconsin, GregV.


Back to the Caucasian bees...
One of the traits that the Caucasians have - they tend to rob more than average.
Robbing is bad as this is one way your bees bring in the mites.

Will see where my wing testing will take me, but maybe Caucasian trait showing is not a good thing.


----------



## HaplozygousNut

GregV said:


> Regardless, I will not buy anything over $35-50 (IF that).
> Not my program anyway.
> Not why I chase bees.
> 
> PS: I guess, once I have some bees handy, I start playing with them a little bit and that confuses people.


Okay, that's great! But I am confused by "start playing with the bees and that confuses people". Not quite sure what you mean!




GregV said:


> Back to the Caucasian bees...
> One of the traits that the Caucasians have - they tend to rob more than average.
> Robbing is bad as this is one way your bees bring in the mites.
> 
> Will see where my wing testing will take me, but maybe Caucasian trait showing is not a good thing.


GregV, have you thought about the Anatolian bee genetics ranging into your area in Wisconsin? They are of the "O" lineage like the Caucasian bee. The Buckfast bee had some Turkish and Armenian bees in its mixture, I read on Wikipedia. Eastern Turkey has colder "continental" winters Climate of Turkey - Wikipedia, and Armenia, too (Climate of Armenia - Wikipedia). If I was to guess, the Italian bee would not be as well adapted for your cold winters in Wisconsin as the Anatolian bee would be, or even some other kinds of bees because Italy has a mild winter climate (Climate of Italy - Wikipedia)

-Nathaniel Long


----------



## GregB

HaplozygousNut said:


> Okay, that's great! But I am confused by "start playing with the bees and that confuses people". Not quite sure what you mean!


I primarily have bees for the bee products, not for the bees.
It may seem otherwise (because I like to experiment), but really not.
I have even been called a PPBK and don't care - I am doing very well for myself and hitting all my goals and then some. 



HaplozygousNut said:


> GregV, have you thought about the Anatolian bee genetics ranging into your area in Wisconsin? They are of the "O" lineage like the Caucasian bee. The Buckfast bee had some Turkish and Armenian bees in its mixture, I read on Wikipedia. Eastern Turkey has colder "continental" winters Climate of Turkey - Wikipedia, and Armenia, too (Climate of Armenia - Wikipedia). If I was to guess, the Italian bee would not be as well adapted for your cold winters in Wisconsin as the Anatolian bee would be, or even some other kinds of bees because Italy has a mild winter climate (Climate of Italy - Wikipedia)
> 
> -Nathaniel Long


Really, the best bees for our place are Carnica and Russians.
People can argue all they want.
But historically, certain bees evolved to fit their place - there is nothing to argue there.
Italians evolved in places with Mediterranean climate - this is how it stands.

Certainly, highland places in Anatolia and Armenia can be harsh and by no means are Mediterranean.
But talking of Anatolian bee here is almost meaning-less; we ain't gotten any.
Regardless, we are here all about hybrids.
Unless you are into continuous buy-buy-buy business model (of pure-ish bees) - you have nothing but various hybrids.


----------



## HaplozygousNut

GregV said:


> I primarily have bees for the bee products, not for the bees.
> It may seem otherwise (because I like to experiment), but really not.
> I have even been called a PPBK and don't care - I am doing very well for myself and hitting all my goals and then some.
> 
> 
> 
> Really, the best bees for our place are Carnica and Russians.
> People can argue all they want.
> But historically, certain bees evolved to fit their place - there is nothing to argue there.
> Italians evolved in places with Mediterranean climate - this is how it stands.
> 
> Certainly, highland places in Anatolia and Armenia can be harsh and by no means are Mediterranean.
> But talking of Anatolian bee here is almost meaning-less; we ain't gotten any.
> Regardless, we are here all about hybrids.
> Unless you are into continuous buy-buy-buy business model (of pure-ish bees) - you have nothing but various hybrids.


Ah, okay, that's good! I think I understand what you meant by "playing with the bees". You mean experiment! That is very good to do. Even if you loose a lot of colonies to the experimentation, you can learn things about the bees that could help tremendously in the future. What does PPBK mean?

Yes, I would say Carnica and Russian bees would be about the best kind of bees for your colder winter Dane County, Wisconsin climate. Do you get a summer dearth? I was more on the lines of thinking Anatolian bees genetics might be mixed in your local population, not that they would be pure Anatolian bees. If you do have a summer dearth, maybe Anatolian bees would have an advantage because they get hot summers along with their cold winters in Turkey and Armenia, which would mean summer dearth?

-Nathaniel Long


----------



## GregB

HaplozygousNut said:


> What does PPBK mean?
> 
> Do you get a summer dearth?
> 
> -Nathaniel Long


Yes, bees are cheap and fun to experiment with. 
And they still pay for themselves.

PPBK - Piss Poor BeeKeeping/BeeKeeper.

On average I always have some flow through the average summer - it is either weak flow or strong flow, but there is always something. This would be a great location for beekeeping if not for the suburban hobbyist beek infestation.


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## AR1

GregV said:


> This would be a great location for beekeeping if not for the suburban hobbyist beek infestation.


I still say it's mostly the almonds that are killing the bees. No chance to adapt when the hives go to Cali every year for a dose of every new strain of virus to come along, then drag them back accross the country to infect every remaining hive. Maybe we should require paper masks over every hive entrance and a 6' gap between bees?


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> I still say it's mostly the almonds that are killing the bees.


Which does not contradict what I said.
Hobbyist beeks purchase tons of almond packages every spring.
Good percentage of these hobbyist beeks are short-termers and don't last more than 2-3 years.

I don't care if I don't treat and lose bees.
Most everyone around here are losing their bees just the same and this what keeps the almond bee traffickers in business.


----------



## crofter

AR1 said:


> I still say it's mostly the almonds that are killing the bees. No chance to adapt when the hives go to Cali every year for a dose of every new strain of virus to come along, then drag them back accross the country to infect every remaining hive. Maybe we should require paper masks over every hive entrance and a 6' gap between bees?


Hard to argue with the disease vectoring of the dominate bee business model. The local backyarder who is pretty constantly replenishing his deadouts with bees split from the mass pollinators is only an extension of bees bred for the mass production model. 

Nearly impossible to foster different genetics; The mass produced bees are good at what they do; breed as long as there is feed! Not good where you want a bee that will shrink its population in the fall to economically survive a 3 to 6 month winter and build up only when local forage is available.


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## GregB

GregV said:


> Just to put this away...
> ................
> #14 - dead
> ...............
> -----------------
> 20% still alive as of 01/17/2012


OK, completed a wing analysis for the #14.
It was a typical almond bee project and I wanted to see how the almond bees look like.
This is basically to learn what kinds of bees I want to avoid.

I am puzzled because I expected to see predominantly Ligustica spec.
Well, well - this queen was laying predominantly Caucasica spec - likely, she was some kind of a Caucasica mix. Ligustica/Carnica likely are coming from open mating.

(For now I decided to put away my Sossimay spec - too many questions.
Just will be running the original Mellifera/Caucasica/Ligustica/Carnica spec).

I now want to run another almond sample I got.


----------



## AR1

GregV I am following your plan. As of now I am down to one hive alive. I cleaned out two deadouts a few days ago and got their honey. Yum. They had quite a bit of stored pollen, but the flavor isn't for me. With a bit of luck I may have one hive come spring, then on to trapping!


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## GregB

AR1 said:


> They had quite a bit of stored pollen, but the flavor isn't for me.


And this is why you make honey/bee bread paste.
~50/50 is a good try and works well.
Not to mention the honey is excellent preservative for the bee bread.

In my house we ditched the commercial vitamins about 3-4 years ago now.
I got my own berries/veg/fruit/bees instead.


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> And this is why you make honey/bee bread paste.
> ~50/50 is a good try and works well.
> Not to mention the honey is excellent preservative for the bee bread.
> 
> In my house we ditched the commercial vitamins about 3-4 years ago now.
> I got my own berries/veg/fruit/bees instead.


Since I crush and strain I end up with some pollen in the honey. It makes for very strongly flavored honey that I like, but it is easy to overdo it. 

I used to take lots of vitamins but quit 20 years ago, after reading science papers that showed little to no benefit, and in some cases bad results. With covid I am taking zinc, VD and VC daily. No idea if it is doing any good, but at least I have not caught covid, in spite of working with covid patients at work. When the current bottles are empty I probably won't buy replacements. Lots of home grown berries, fruits and veggies!


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Since I crush and strain I end up with some pollen in the honey. It makes for very strongly flavored honey that I like, but it is easy to overdo it.


Try 80/20 and see?
Up to you to decide.

All in all - that honey/bee bread mix is not to be treated as a food.
That is a supplement (call it medicine if you want).
Medicine is not required to have a good taste (even though the industry make most all meds taste like sugary foods - LOL).


----------



## GregB

#1 - dead
#2 - dead
#3 - dead
#4 - dead
*#5 - alive*
#6 - dead
#7 - dead
#8 - dead
#9 - dead
#10 - dead
*#11 - alive*
#12 - dead 
#13 - dead
#14 - dead
#15 - dead
-----------------
13% still alive as of 02/27/2012 

#5 and #11 are brooding which normal about now.


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> #1 - dead
> #2 - dead
> #3 - dead
> #4 - dead
> *#5 - alive*
> #6 - dead
> #7 - dead
> #8 - dead
> #9 - dead
> #10 - dead
> *#11 - alive*
> #12 - dead
> #13 - dead
> #14 - dead
> #15 - dead
> -----------------
> 13% still alive as of 02/27/2012
> 
> #5 and #11 are brooding which normal about now.


Similar to my results. One alive of ten. Two of those may be attributed to cold weather, they appear to have been brooding when it got too cold and they died trying to protect brood within a few inches of honey.

I had none that clearly directly died of varroa/virus. No mass larvae drug out of the hive, no deformed wings or bees. After the hives died I examined the bees and the bottom boards and found only a few mites.


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> Similar to my results. One alive of ten.


GregV and AR1:

Sorry to read about your struggles. I know how disappointing it is to work diligently on a project only to suffer a significant setback.

Hopefully the resources you acquire from the dead-outs and the lessons you have learned will lend themselves to better success in this coming year.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV and AR1:
> 
> Sorry to read about your struggles. I know how disappointing it is to work diligently on a project only to suffer a significant setback.
> 
> Hopefully the resources you acquire from the dead-outs and the lessons you have learned will lend themselves to better success in this coming year.
> 
> Russ


Soon enough I will round up my #s for the entire duration of this project.
Then I will put out the 5-year report.
This way people can reference a real-life case (vs. he said/she promised).
But at best it is about 20-30% survival at my location IF that.

Going forward (AND the latest EPA decision regarding the OA) I will need to think what is I really want. It is becoming pretty clear that some sort of selection work is not really feasible here and now, at my place. Unsure if I care enough to continue this.

I got more than enough bee products - the kitchen is full of honey containers I need to press and there is still more to be harvested. So that is that.

But looking back, I could have made thousands of dollars just selling the swarms and/or nucs and some queens too.
So here is a simple fact - I am throwing away a lot of money to be made and this is not reasonable. Just paid $120 for a pair of running shoes for my teenage athlete. Ouch.


----------



## GregB

OK, some morpho-sigs in visual format.
(known mite count in % included)

#1 - (24-25%) - the so-claimed Carnies were really Carni/Ligustica mutt - about 50/50.


----------



## GregB

#5 - (~3%) - the still-alive VSH - Carni/Ligustica mutt trending to the Carni side some.

So both cases are of the lineage C predominantly (VSH or no VSH).
Ligustica and Carnica are really cousins.

Interestingly, the morpho-sigs of both the VSH and mite-fodder bees are pretty much the same here. The rough morpho analysis is not really helping.

At some time last summer I even commented to the vendor (he asked) about the queen being mediocre. Later I understood - she was, indeed, the highly VSH. It is not mediocre, it is VSH behavior when a dump of mite-fodder bees from the #1 above was given to her to work with.


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## GregB

#2 (5-6%), #3 (4-5%), #6 (4-5%) - open mated daughters of the #5.
Interesting how they all have significant increase in the Caucasion sector (lineage O) from their mother.
This points to significant presence of lineage O drones in the area since their #5 mother has not much of the lineage O to show.
Whatever this "Caucasion" blood is, it may not be exactly good.
But what IS good - the morpho-test did show the consistent change from mother to the daughters. So there is demonstrated usefulness to the morpho-testing in that.


----------



## crofter

Greg


GregV said:


> #2, #3, #4 - open mated daughters of the #5.
> Interesting how they all have significant increase in the Caucasion sector (lineage O).


You seem to manage to keep them over the summer and make your honey and other hive products free of any chemicals in but winter is the deal breaker. Could you consider having two groups of bees that get different management protocols or perhaps a different set of combs that get a different protocol?


----------



## GregB

#14 - a captured classic Italian swarm (as I perceived them due to their yellowish exterior).
But the morpho-sig puts them down as predominantly Caucasian.
Whatever funky stuff these almond bee breeders are doing - I got.
Or the Euro-calibration of the tool is not working for us.

Pretty much, this is a typical "almond bee" signature or close to it.
No wonder then my open-mated queens get this spike of the "Caucasian" blood in them.

Just added - this #14 unit brought me a good load of honey though - that is not exactly like the most worthless "eat and breed" #10 below. Maybe I spoke too soon.
Still not harvested all of it - ran out of tare when I went to get their honey yesterday (silly me).


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> Greg
> 
> 
> You seem to manage to keep them over the summer and make your honey and other hive products free of any chemicals in but winter is the deal breaker. Could you consider having two groups of bees that get different management protocols or perhaps a different set of combs that get a different protocol?


Thinking to look into limited OA usage (ESPECIALY at the moment of creating new units around the new queens and shook bees - brood-less start up). I have done several brood-less startups in 2020 and they work great - but clearly NOT great enough without truly clean start.
A dribble of OA at the unit start up may be worth a try.
Or a 2-3 week OA media insert

I was already thinking to do some OA-related math - and boom, the EPA resolution came out.
I now wonder if I even care to do the math since the EPA surely double-checked the math for me and probably did a much better job I could ever do.


----------



## GregB

#12 - a very strong June swarm I had hopes for, but they faded in January/February.
These I suspect could have been sold to someone as "Russian" bees (behavior, dark bee, etc) - before I got my hand on them.
Variability of the CI pushing into the lower lower value range sorta/kinda supports my idea - into the lineage O/lineage M range.
There was a significant Caucasian flavor to these just visually - see pics.
I feel bad I lost them.


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## GregB

#11 - (~5%) - open-mated daughter of #12 and still holding her own.
Very similar morpho-sig to her dead mother too (and the behavior - a little jumpy - sorta/kinda Russian).
Will definitely breed this line if they hold just one more month.
Interestingly, their brood did show noticeable mite damage and yet, here they are.


----------



## GregB

#10 - (22-23%) - just another "almond bee" swarm by the traits of it.
But it was different from #14 and was totally worthless bee (the "eat and breed" type).


----------



## crofter

GregV said:


> Thinking to look into limited OA usage (ESPECIALY at the moment of creating new units around the new queens and shook bees - brood-less start up). I have done several brood-startups in 2020 and they work great - but clearly NOT great enough without truly clean start.
> A dribble of OA at the unit start up may be worth a try.
> Or a 2-3 week OA media insert
> 
> I was already thinking to do some OA-related math - and boom, the EPA resolution came out.
> I now wonder if I even care to do the math since the EPA surely double-checked the math for me and probably did a much better job I could ever do.


If you really wanted to keep your honey producing colonies squeaky clean there are ways of taking the bees off the comb and lose near 100% of their lice. I think you would have an easier go with Carni bees; Italians rob like *****, and go into winter with double the size of clusters. Bad scene for mite numbers. Sure, you can feed them up to a full population 6 weeks before the first flowers but what use is that.

You can entertain some thoughts about possible new directions; you have given this a good effort.


----------



## GregB

#9 - (5-6%) - a random swarm of some darker, mild bees (I thought these were my own escapees, but those were more yellow - must be some other bees, not mine - lose some/gain some). Dead anyway.


----------



## GregB

dup


----------



## GregB

#13 - (8-9%) - another random, vague swarm.


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## GregB

And for the fun of it - here is a sample of the real Primorsky bees in the compatible format.
Just mutts of mostly C-lineage - like the mutts I posted above - pretty much the C-lineage mixed in with the O-lineage in various proportions.
Don't get me started about the "pure Russians" or "pure Saska" or "pure Bucks".


----------



## GregB

And to compare, here is how the pure-enough AMM looks like.
So this is a good quality sample of the M-lineage.


----------



## GregB

Pull my records.
Did the math.
Wintering survival records (NOTE: 2020/2021 is not over yet!!! jumping the gun here)
---------------------
2016/2017 - 1/2 (50%)
2017/2018 - 2/11 (18%)
2018/2019 - 4/13 (31%)
2019/2020 - 0/19 (0%)
2020/2021 - 2/15 (13%)

Total units attempted to winter: 2 + 11 + 13 + 19 + 15 = 60
Total units survived a winter: 1 + 2 + 4 + 0 + 2 = 9
Average: 9/60 = 0.15

Assigned weights to each year:
2/60 = 0.03
11/60 = 0.18
13/60 = 0.22
19/60 = 0.32
15/60 = 0.25
------------
60/60 = 1.00

Weighted average:
0.5*0.03 + 0.18*0.18 + 0.31*0.22 + 0.0*0.32 + 0.13*0.25 = 0.15

Conclusion: expected 5 year TF survival probability at my place is 15%.

Meh.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV:

You may have addressed this and I missed it, but how many wing samples per colony are you analyzing?

In continued discussions with Dr. Tolfilski, he recommends a minimum of twenty samples per colony and asserts that more may be required in areas with significant hybridization to get a sense of the prevalent lineage, even within a particular colony.

Also, I watched the following webinar by Mr. Roger Patterson today and I thought of your situation. Well worth the 1.5 hour investment in my humble opinion:


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> You may have addressed this and I missed it, but how many wing samples per colony are you analyzing?


I settled on 36 per colony - just for my own ergonomic/practical reasons and this is a sufficient# to have a good-enough results.
Keeping in mind that 3-5 wings out of each sample are usually going as non-identified and so the sample of 36 wings usually gives about 30 "good" wings that the tools can classify.
Every time I checked the reason for some wing being "bad" I hardly ever found correctable mistakes on my part.
Rather, it seems the wings readings are indeed producing the values that tools' settings don't expect - that alone is an interesting problem.
I mean to contact the tools' designers now that I have a dataset to talk about.

Thanks for link - will watch.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> I settled on 36 per colony - just for my own ergonomic/practical reasons and this is a sufficient# to have a good-enough results.


GregV:

I apologize for my delay in reply- been away from the computer.

While I don't know too much about wing morphometry analysis, it sounds like you are employing a plenty large enough sample size to satisfy Dr. Tolfilski's sample size recommendations.

The other thing I found interesting about his talk was that he noted that the wing sets on individual bees are different sizes so he recommended if you had the luxury to consistently analyze the left side...

Keep up the good work- interesting stuff.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> The other thing I found interesting about his talk was that he noted that the wing sets on individual bees are different sizes so he recommended if you had the luxury to consistently analyze the left side...


I already stuck on the right wings. 
So will continue that...

He said - in general the right wings are just a hair larger.

The proper sample collection in itself is the whole science per my readings.
Basically, what I have been doing - collecting dead bees in winter is a no-no and will not produce accurate readings of the colony makeup (if you are a die-hard morphometrics person and care about a micrometer to the left).
Oh well.
LOL.


----------



## HaplozygousNut

GregV said:


> #14 - a captured classic Italian swarm (as I perceived them due to their yellowish exterior).
> But the morpho-sig puts them down as predominantly Caucasian.
> Whatever funky stuff these almond bee breeders are doing - I got.
> Or the Euro-calibration of the tool is not working for us.
> 
> Pretty much, this is a typical "almond bee" signature or close to it.
> No wonder then my open-mated queens get this spike of the "Caucasian" blood in them.
> ---------


Very interesting. Could these be what the Russians call "Yellow Caucasian" (Жовта кавказька бджола Yellow Caucasian bee article on Ukrainian Wikipedia.)? Apis mellifera remipes? They are the lighter colored, lower elevation version of the Grey Caucasians (Apis mellifera caucasia). Yellow Caucasians are supposed to be good for hot climates. The tongues may tell what sort of bees these could be? If these bees from the almonds in California that have Caucasian like wing veining are short tongue, then you may be able to rule out the Caucasians, which have very long tongues.

-Nathaniel Long


----------



## GregB

HaplozygousNut said:


> Very interesting. Could these be what the Russians call "Yellow Caucasian" (Жовта кавказька бджола Yellow Caucasian bee article on Ukrainian Wikipedia.)? Apis mellifera remipes? They are the lighter colored, lower elevation version of the Grey Caucasians (Apis mellifera caucasia). Yellow Caucasians are supposed to be good for hot climates. The tongues may tell what sort of bees these could be? If these bees from the almonds in California that have Caucasian like wing veining are short tongue, then you may be able to rule out the Caucasians, which have very long tongues.
> 
> -Nathaniel Long


Nathaniel,
I was thinking the same - maybe "Yellow Caucasian"?
Well, the Gray and the Yellow are very distinct (unless they hybridized).
Particularly the Gray has the longest tongue, but no the Yellow.
So, AFAIK only the Gray was imported into the US in the past officially (unsure now).
Anyway, even in the authentic region there are hybrids between Gray and Yellow (where the Yellow bee is itself a hybrid of the Gray and the Persian).
Here is how the map used look like - the highland Gray bee, Persian bee down south, and all the Yellow bees all way around (they are indeed hybrids of the Gray and of the Persian):


----------



## HaplozygousNut

AR1 said:


> Similar to my results. One alive of ten. Two of those may be attributed to cold weather, they appear to have been brooding when it got too cold and they died trying to protect brood within a few inches of honey.
> 
> I had none that clearly directly died of varroa/virus. No mass larvae drug out of the hive, no deformed wings or bees. After the hives died I examined the bees and the bottom boards and found only a few mites.


I am sorry to hear AR1. I am having a bad year, too, right now with our bees.  I drowned most of the colonies that I saved from starvation last summer because I just kept feeding sugar syrup. And now I just checked our colonies and found out that they were having moisture issues because I did not crack their lids for a top entrance last Fall (lids wet and moldy, and insides of the hive moldy in the worst cases.). I am thankful to God that I have some colonies survive for this season. I was worried I had lost all but a couple hives. Right now our colonies are still dormant, hardly eaten any honey, and no drones that I have seen. We have had an unusually cool winter this year, and everything seems delayed (plant blooms, mushroom blooms, bees etc.). I hope to have success with bees someday, but so far I have failed each year.

AR1 do you have top entrances to let moisture out of the hives during winter? I found that I have to do it or the bees can die or at least be stressed during the Winter without the top ventilation. I have read from Thomas Seeley that swarms prefer to live in hives that have a bottom entrance. But practically in my experience our bees had moisture issues with only a bottom entrance. 
Thomas Seeley also wrote that the swarms preferred to nest in the size of just one Langstroth box (40 liters), which is much smaller than what beekeepers do. I remember also about Thomas Seeley writing that the colonies kept in one Langstroth box survived by far better than larger hives of 2 Langstroth box. 

Could my moisture issues be due to overwintering hives in large 2 or 3 story hives, which makes it necessary for top entrances? If there is less volume then the air may naturally ventilate out more so in the smaller 1 box Langstroth colonies, so that top entrances are not necessary for ventilation. I have noticed that 1 story colonies over winter beautifully and expand rapidly in the Winter/Spring to become large colonies. I am going to try keeping bees in smaller volume hives.

-Nathaniel Long


----------



## GregB

HaplozygousNut said:


> Very interesting.


I have since redone all my samples with a twiked reference set, hoping it would be more sensitive.
#14 looks like this after the twik - less O-lineage/more C-lineage


----------



## Gray Goose

HaplozygousNut said:


> I am sorry to hear AR1. I am having a bad year, too, right now with our bees.  I drowned most of the colonies that I saved from starvation last summer because I just kept feeding sugar syrup. And now I just checked our colonies and found out that they were having moisture issues because I did not crack their lids for a top entrance last Fall (lids wet and moldy, and insides of the hive moldy in the worst cases.). I am thankful to God that I have some colonies survive for this season. I was worried I had lost all but a couple hives. Right now our colonies are still dormant, hardly eaten any honey, and no drones that I have seen. We have had an unusually cool winter this year, and everything seems delayed (plant blooms, mushroom blooms, bees etc.). I hope to have success with bees someday, but so far I have failed each year.
> 
> AR1 do you have top entrances to let moisture out of the hives during winter? I found that I have to do it or the bees can die or at least be stressed during the Winter without the top ventilation. I have read from Thomas Seeley that swarms prefer to live in hives that have a bottom entrance. But practically in my experience our bees had moisture issues with only a bottom entrance.
> Thomas Seeley also wrote that the swarms preferred to nest in the size of just one Langstroth box (40 liters), which is much smaller than what beekeepers do. I remember also about Thomas Seeley writing that the colonies kept in one Langstroth box survived by far better than larger hives of 2 Langstroth box.
> 
> Could my moisture issues be due to overwintering hives in large 2 or 3 story hives, which makes it necessary for top entrances? If there is less volume then the air may naturally ventilate out more so in the smaller 1 box Langstroth colonies, so that top entrances are not necessary for ventilation. I have noticed that 1 story colonies over winter beautifully and expand rapidly in the Winter/Spring to become large colonies. I am going to try keeping bees in smaller volume hives.
> 
> -Nathaniel Long


Nathaniel,

did the feed you put on have the time to be dehydrated and capped?
If it is mostly open cell and uncapped the feed is being applied too late, you want capped feed not open feed.I had a couple that were light and feed last min and did see a lot of open cells in the comb while inspecting the dead outs.

keep track of WHEN you feed and the survivability.
I have 2 -3 deep and 1- 4 deep with no upper entrance, on the breeders for early unlimited build up and a honey dome to promote swarming. Not seeing a moisture issue on those VRS the 2 deep, I do not do 1 deep never had any luck there.

bottom line bees do not normally go into winter with a lot of uncapped stores. unless we cause them to.

GG


----------



## GregB

HaplozygousNut said:


> I just kept feeding sugar syrup.


Need to switch to dry sugar for the winter IF you are low on stores.
Even if you are very light, still switch to the dry feed.
The liquid feeding needs to be given early enough so there is time to cap most of it.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> ..................................
> Also, I watched the following webinar by Mr. Roger Patterson today and I thought of your situation. Well worth the 1.5 hour investment in my humble opinion:


Among other good things, I picked up one important fact in this video.
Hybrids vs. mongrels.
I did not know there is a difference.

So, what we have here is mongrels.
All kinds of mongrels.
Nothing but mongrels.


----------



## AR1

HaplozygousNut said:


> AR1 do you have top entrances to let moisture out of the hives during winter? I found that I have to do it or the bees can die or at least be stressed during the Winter without the top ventilation. I have read from Thomas Seeley that swarms prefer to live in hives that have a bottom entrance. But practically in my experience our bees had moisture issues with only a bottom entrance.
> 
> 
> Could my moisture issues be due to overwintering hives in large 2 or 3 story hives, which makes it necessary for top entrances? If there is less volume then the air may naturally ventilate out more so in the smaller 1 box Langstroth colonies, so that top entrances are not necessary for ventilation. I have noticed that 1 story colonies over winter beautifully and expand rapidly in the Winter/Spring to become large colonies. I am going to try keeping bees in smaller volume hives.
> 
> -Nathaniel Long


Some had top vents, some no. The sole current survivor is in a 2 medium hive with no top vent. On top of the two mediums is a deep stuffed with fiberglass insulation. Under the insulation on top of the frames is block sugar. The fiberglass gets distinctly moist in winter but the bees seem to stay dry. 

I had good luck last year wintering in 5-frame nucs with a nuc on top stuffed with insulation over a sugar block. If that can work in N Illinois where it can get down to 20 below, I don't see why it would be a problem in NC. I didn't do it this year because most of them died in the fall!


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> deep stuffed with fiberglass insulation.


This fiberglass stuff gets me a bit nervous.

I keep thinking of the glass fibers getting into the combs (and then potentially into the honey/bee bread).


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> The proper sample collection in itself is the whole science per my readings.


GregV:

Thank you for your reply. I am impressed with what you have been able to accomplish, and I imagine what you are doing is 'good enough'. It's kind of like throwing horseshoes and hand grenades right?



GregV said:


> So, what we have here is mongrels.


I suppose with few exceptions that is what we all have unless we are engaged in a fairly sophisticated closed breeding program- similar to what Brother Adam was engaged in to produce the true hybrids.

I am curious to hear your thoughts on where you go from here- are you going to continue to swarm trap heavily, breed from your survivors, both?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> Thank you for your reply. I am impressed with what you have been able to accomplish, and I imagine what you are doing is 'good enough'. It's kind of like throwing horseshoes and hand grenades right?
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose with few exceptions that is what we all have unless we are engaged in a fairly sophisticated closed breeding program- similar to what Brother Adam was engaged in to produce the true hybrids.
> 
> I am curious to hear your thoughts on where you go from here- are you going to continue to swarm trap heavily, breed from your survivors, both?


Speaking of the morpho, the real deal is not the pretty pictures, but the data behind the pictures.
I don't bother with putting up the value distributions which are also available but not as visual and are harder to understand.
The statistical information is more useful and deep; trying to learn.
I would like to be able to start distinguishing my mongrels based on the mean CI, DsA, HI (and the variability characteristics of those).

Going forward there will be one change - clean startups*.
Dirty startups** don't work for me.
Have to have clean startups.
No matter how promising the queens are, given dirty startups, they are mostly likely fail around here.
This is where the OA comes in.

If the queen is any good, the clean startup gives her a good chance to hold the line through the season. Clearly some queens do hold the line even with a dirty startup (but only very few - that *15%*).
If the queen is crap, the clean startup is not much help; and so such units will be self- terminated in the fall/winter as they usually do for me (and give me my annual harvest).

Otherwise, this will be what I have been doing the last season.

*clean startups - caught swarms and artificial brood-less swarms that will be OA'ed (dribble or media) while still broodless
**dirty startups - same as clean startups, but without treatments.


----------



## HaplozygousNut

Gray Goose said:


> Nathaniel,
> 
> did the feed you put on have the time to be dehydrated and capped?
> If it is mostly open cell and uncapped the feed is being applied too late, you want capped feed not open feed.I had a couple that were light and feed last min and did see a lot of open cells in the comb while inspecting the dead outs.
> 
> keep track of WHEN you feed and the survivability.
> I have 2 -3 deep and 1- 4 deep with no upper entrance, on the breeders for early unlimited build up and a honey dome to promote swarming. Not seeing a moisture issue on those VRS the 2 deep, I do not do 1 deep never had any luck there.
> 
> bottom line bees do not normally go into winter with a lot of uncapped stores. unless we cause them to.
> 
> GG


That is likely what happened this year then! I was feeding the colonies through to late summer or early fall. A lot of uncapped sugar syrup could cause the moisture problems I had. 

-Nathaniel Long


----------



## msl

GregV said:


> OA'ed (dribble or media) while still broodless


the media is interesting as it takes a long time to get up to full strength so it works when brood is on... but curlilusy dosn't help whenthe hive catches a mite bomb
do to the long time spent in the hive to get to an effective level, I think you're better with brood less dribble, as the media may be a clean summer, not just a clean start


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> I think you're better with brood less dribble, as the media may be a clean summer, not just a clean start


Yes, thinking the same.
Long term release may be masking the bee-side mite handling (IF they can do it).
Like the idea of giving every one queen a clean and fair start but then letting them to express themselves (as a way to select out worthwhile queens).

If I recall you have some bees that only take a single OA dribble per season to stay afloat.
For my location that would be a very good grade bee.

Media maybe OK to keep afloat almond bee resource unit(s) used up for the bulk bees.


----------



## msl

yes in yards that don't take strong out side mite pressure (bombs) i
to be fair the spring fly back split, then all the mites in the brood being divided 4 ways in to nucs that then go threw a brood break wile the queen develops and mates has a very, very strong impact as well


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Going forward there will be one change - clean startups*.


GregV:

I've apologized to GWW and now I'll apologize to you for asking the question and then leaving you hanging. I can certainly appreciate the benefit and logic behind a 'clean start-up'. My memory is a bit foggy, but I think this idea is part of the 'Black Box' breeding method?

Either way, it seems like a good way to at least attenuate one variable in an attempt to develop a reasonable comparative benchmark for mite population growth.

Thanks again for your reply, and have a great week.

Russ


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> ....... a 'clean start-up'. My memory is a bit foggy, but I think this idea is part of the 'Black Box' breeding method?
> 
> Russ


Russ, indeed, the "Black Box".
I will still do the mite counts at the season end to estimate what is to come.


----------



## msl

Litsinger said:


> but I think this idea is part of the 'Black Box' breeding method?


part of most resistance breeding programs


----------



## LAlldredge

Hey there GregV- In my opinion TF is an advanced skill. Some of my fave beekeepers manage to do it but usually under ideal conditions and away from other beekeepers. 

But I just have to ask. If you only have an average of 15% winter survival rate over 5 years I just have to ask- is this experiment still viable? It would too depressing for me to continue without changing tactics.


----------



## GregB

LAlldredge said:


> Hey there GregV- In my opinion TF is an advanced skill. Some of my fave beekeepers manage to do it but usually under ideal conditions and away from other beekeepers.
> 
> But I just have to ask. * If you only have an average of 15% winter survival rate over 5 years I just have to ask- is this experiment still viable? It would too depressing for me to continue without changing tactics.*


See:








GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.


They had quite a bit of stored pollen, but the flavor isn't for me. And this is why you make honey/bee bread paste. ~50/50 is a good try and works well. Not to mention the honey is excellent preservative for the bee bread. In my house we ditched the commercial vitamins about 3-4 years ago now...




www.beesource.com





I have demonstrated by this experiment that the beekeeping (including TF beekeeing) is a very much location-depending undertaking (DOH!). What's new?

Btw, I also shared my 5-year summary in my local community so that locals know what we have going on the ground here. We don't need to hear references to the "small cell" based on some Arizona-findings and some other phenomenon based on anecdotes from elsewhere. I got some hard data from my own backyard collected over the last 5 years and I let everyone know what it is.

I want people to read this and stop blindly copying "just don't treat" philosophy preached by some (this is disservice on their part and should be called for what it is - IMO). 
BTW - the "just don't treat" approach would probably work if we had Stalin-era like conditions when everyone is to obey the rules... or else. But we don't have that.

Instead - study your particular situation and understand what is possible at your place.
Clearly, some people can care less and just keep bees as in old times and still do it in sustainable fashion. We have many examples of the same.
But yet some other people will not be able to do the same (these include me).
And yet some people could probably be doing TF or at least IPM at their places (but they don't - and this is opportunity lost).


----------



## GregB

LAlldredge said:


> ..........In my opinion TF is an advanced skill.........


And to elaborate - TF is NOT an advanced skill as a global definition.
There are places where one needs no TF skills whatsoever.
People don't even know and don't care what "TF" (tm) is - like in Honduras.
Like here:








Musings about Top Bar Hive Beekeeping: A Visit To An Apiary


I think everybody’s beekeeping depends on their own unique situation and desires. Beekeeping takes many different forms around the world...




musingsonbeekeeping.blogspot.com





Or ask GWW about his "elaborate TF procedures"... LOL
Well, he has none - he just keeps bees and gets his honey - that's about it.
So here you go.


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> part of most resistance breeding programs


Thanks for the clarification, MSL. After sleeping on this, I was reminded I had received feedback on this from Juhani who had communicated with Dr. Spivak directly who is quoted as saying:

_"In fact, we did not treat the nucs. I did not listen to my talk, but I'm sorry that was not clear. We ... treat the swarms (with the parent queen), but we do not treat the daughter nucs. My goal is to follow the bees' lead through survival stock of the nucs, but to try to understand where the nucs are leading me by keeping the parents and understanding the characters the parent colonies have that might allow the nucs to survive."_


----------



## gww

greg


> Or ask GWW about his "elaborate TF procedures"... LOL
> Well, he has none - he just keeps bees and gets his honey - that's about it.
> So here you go.


More true now then it was my first few years though even then, really close. Then, I did make a couple splits with an ideal of where the mite would end up. Then just quit cause I did not want more hives. 
Cheers
gww
Still might bite me harder than it has so far and so I don't tell futures.


----------



## GregB

gww said:


> greg
> 
> More true now then it was my first few years though even then, really close. Then, I did make a couple splits with an ideal of where the mite would end up. Then just quit cause I did not want more hives.
> Cheers
> gww
> Still might bite me harder than it has so far and so I don't tell futures.


Heck, I wish I had a fraction of your good luck, gww.
I wish I cared less about all the TF(tm) talk and just kept the bees and got my honey once a year.
That was the original idea when I built all my long hives - thinking the peasant-style beekeeping would be perfect for me.
Well, turned out I could never replicate the Leo Sharashkin's premise.
Location, location, location - something that "natural" beekeeping theorists forget to mention.

Anyway, now onto more advanced IPM gymnastics for me.... Something to do.


----------



## bjorn

I was trying to gather what I could from the videos. The oiled paper was simply to hold the dead mites in place as a means of tracking the effectiveness of the treatment? Also, youtube translation leaves a bit to be desired and I do not speak russian. The translation says he's using red pepper. Is that just a bad translation? Is it dried horseradish root? He's smoking with this multiple times a year or just in fall?


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> I was trying to gather what I could from the videos. The oiled paper was simply to hold the dead mites in place as a means of tracking the effectiveness of the treatment? Also, youtube translation leaves a bit to be desired and I do not speak russian. The translation says he's using red pepper. Is that just a bad translation? Is it dried horseradish root? He's smoking with this multiple times a year or just in fall?


bjorn, it would be useful if you quoted exact post (the next time).
I have lots of videos referenced to discern which one you are talking about.

But let me try..
Oil paper - sure, you stick it under prior to your treatment administration;
Then you *kinda *estimate from the fall how bad the infestation was OR how we well the prep is working (this can be very misleading! - be warned and think logically - only cases where lots of mite fall is observed and the efficacy of your prep is known one can conclude something useful).
Yes - they use red pepper and/or horseradish and even swear by them.
However, I have little trust in their methods and/or reporting.
First of all, they omit most all specifics - go figure.
I have heard testimonials that some people just do it through the season.
BUT in the end (as I often find accidentally) - they still use amitraz for a good measure and just to be sure (LOL!) So that's the kind of "science" we are talking about.
So that is that.


----------



## GregB

5 year wintering survival records outcomes are now final.

(NOTE: this is the final record for 2020/2021 as of yesterday - it is even worse as the projected #s done two months ago; a unit still alive in March also perished; only the VSH unit survived the season).
---------------------
2016/2017 - 1/2 (50%)
2017/2018 - 2/11 (18%)
2018/2019 - 4/13 (31%)
2019/2020 - 0/19 (0%)
2020/2021 - 1/15 (7%)

Total units attempted to winter: 2 + 11 + 13 + 19 + 15 = 60
Total units survived a winter: 1 + 2 + 4 + 0 + 1 = 8
Simple average: 8/60 = *0.13*

Assigned weights to each year:
2/60 = 0.03
11/60 = 0.18
13/60 = 0.22
19/60 = 0.32
15/60 = 0.25
------------
60/60 = 1.00

Weighted average:
0.5*0.03 + 0.18*0.18 + 0.31*0.22 + 0.0*0.32 + 0.07*0.25 = *0.13*

Conclusion: expected 5 year TF survival probability at my place is *13%*.


----------



## GregB

And another clear conclusion - any conclusions and statements without the proper attached contexts are meaningless and misleading (and really are harmful).

The "just don't treat" approach in my particular situation will consistently result in the numbers I posted here (based on the 5 year chem-free observation).


----------



## Gino45

Sorry to hear how it went for you this winter.
I just viewed the Honduras site and found it very interesting. On the one hand, the beekeeper is fully suited up which suggests Africanized as does the mention of swarms as though they are a regular occurence. Also the site seems to be well removed to avoid human contact...again suggesting Africanized.
On the other hand there is the picture of the cow very close to the hives. My cows and donkey and dog all know not to get to near my very gentle hives. Go figure.
In spite of that I would suggest that the African aspect of these bees is what allows them to survive without all of the 'help' we in the states seem to need to give the bees for their survival.


----------



## GregB

Gino45 said:


> I would suggest that the African aspect of these bees is what allows them to survive without all of the 'help'


Maybe.
For sure, all the hoopla about "small cell miracle" that used to come out of Arizona failed to simply denote the strong Africanised nature of their desert bees.
That was the true context of the "miracle".

Up here the Africanised trends (if anything gets imported) are quickly weeded out by the very next winter - for better or for worse.


----------



## Gino45

Gino45 said:


> Sorry to hear how it went for you this winter.
> I just viewed the Honduras site and found it very interesting. [QUOTE
> 
> I'd like to ad that the 'madreado' tree is a very valuable permaculture tree used for fuel and fodder and shade. It's only limitation is that is loses it's leaves during the winter. I have some on my 'ranch', although it is not well known on my island. I also knew it as 'madre de cacao', rather than madreado,,,fwiw. I imagine it would grow in southern California and elsewhere. Adequate moisture.
> and frosts would be the limiting factors.
> 
> And I will state that my bees, without treatment, would be long gone also. In fact, even with treatments, I still have an obscene amount of die outs. Fortunately, I have a long season where I am able to replace my losses via splits and queen rearing.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> 5 year wintering survival records outcomes are now final.
> 
> (NOTE: this is the final record for 2020/2021 as of yesterday - it is even worse as the projected #s done two months ago; a unit still alive in March also perished; only the VSH unit survived the season).
> ---------------------
> 2016/2017 - 1/2 (50%)
> 2017/2018 - 2/11 (18%)
> 2018/2019 - 4/13 (31%)
> 2019/2020 - 0/19 (0%)
> 2020/2021 - 1/15 (7%)
> 
> Total units attempted to winter: 2 + 11 + 13 + 19 + 15 = 60
> Total units survived a winter: 1 + 2 + 4 + 0 + 1 = 8
> Simple average: 8/60 = *0.13*
> 
> Assigned weights to each year:
> 2/60 = 0.03
> 11/60 = 0.18
> 13/60 = 0.22
> 19/60 = 0.32
> 15/60 = 0.25
> ------------
> 60/60 = 1.00
> 
> Weighted average:
> 0.5*0.03 + 0.18*0.18 + 0.31*0.22 + 0.0*0.32 + 0.07*0.25 = *0.13*
> 
> Conclusion: expected 5 year TF survival probability at my place is *13%*.


Hi greg not good looking numbers.
IMO it is a lot like real estate , 3 most important things.
location location location.
good forage, good water, few imported issues from large bee drops.

mine is 26 hives into winter 12 losses, just added one more this past week found queen less. So close to 50 % but I did OA in fall Me thinks a bit too late. I do have 10 split out there now from swarm control actions.

I think your clean starts will help.
did you have any starve out or winter queen failures, I did have a couple of those in the far yard, was too busy to do a good fall setup, my bad,, hope to fix that this year. At least I have some bees to work with, 7 of the survivors are 3 box and 1 -4 box hives, often have 30 frames (lang frames) of bees and Queen cells on the inspections last week.

did get 10 new hives built this winter hoping for 40 going into this winter. I am treating the splits as they get to brood less, then an Aug treatment as well. Be wild if 40 survived. I'd need 100 supers and I am a bit short of that.
I would have sent bees, to morph, but the pure ones did not make it and the couple that did have different queens oddly several of my hives superseded in late fall. black queen in fall yellow queen in spring.

I try to get the "suspected" breeders up to big size 3 deep ish for winter, seems they winter better and come out stronger than the smallish ones. I do have 4 of the side by side Palmer style NUCs to try for this winter as well.
Making them in late June. from the best of the best.

good luck this year.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Hi greg not good looking numbers.
> IMO it is a lot like real estate , 3 most important things.
> location location location.
> good forage, good water, few imported issues from large bee drops.
> 
> mine is 26 hives into winter 12 losses, just added one more this past week found queen less. So close to 50 % but I did OA in fall Me thinks a bit too late. I do have 10 split out there now from swarm control actions.
> 
> I think your clean starts will help.
> did you have any starve out or winter queen failures, .......
> 
> good luck this year.
> 
> GG


Hey GG.
These are terrible numbers.
BUT - I am glad I held the line and ran this show for 5 years.
No one will say now that I did not do it long enough (never say never, but I hope).

At this point also there is not point to hold out longer - this has been long enough.
Something needs changed.
I hope people quote my thread; it is fine by me.

I have done it all or so about:

June splits
July splits (aka OTS)
natural comb and only natural comb
distributed hives (am running 7 yards now with no more than 2-3 units per a yard - no congestion)
horizontal, low stress hives (Sharashkin style)
last year I sent into the winter my first CVH; a modified Warre (they still died, why wouldn't they)
insulation - enough said
fly back splits (to create brood-less resets)
fed to ensure that starvation was never an issue (it never was)
imported feral queens (though made mistakes - should really do this via a clean start)
tried out Russian queens (though made mistakes - same issue with dirty starts)
tried to catch "feral" bees which just don't exist here, to be honest
removed drone comb (which I harvest anyway).
build a wintering box for nucs (see insulation)
made heaters to winter weak nucs and tried using them - useless if the bees are no good
raised daughters from my (still-alive) VSH queen last year - they all died anyway (even though the mite counts were promising)
created brood-less splits for new queens and countless brood-breaks
seeked out and gotten myself out yards with excellent foraging - all those poor foraging talks - not here; my forage is excellent (and I enjoy the honey)
I am forgetting what else I have done....

NO - Not a single starvation case.
I have never had starvation (if anything different I had - once was a cluster frozen in place during the Arctic blast a couple of years ago; ironically the frozen bees were from a promising line).
Not to mention I always practice pro-active dry sugar/fondant on the top anyway.
Every single cluster just when through abnormally large and fast attrition and collapsed - some sooner; some later.
Around here once a cluster becomes too small - it will freeze and no way back.

Pretty much compromised and short-lived winter bees caused by the mite infestation is the issue that remains.
So now is onto the OA dribble/clean (re)starts.
Still combined with selecting out the queens that show the best mite counts.
Even though the mite infestation levels here are high, some of the bees do show much better mite counts while others show terrible mite counts.
So, hopefully, with the additional help the most resistant bees will be able to hold out.
Without help chances are slim to none.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> ... my (still-alive) VSH queen ...


GregV:

Sorry to read about your troubles- I was wondering as I read your previous post if your bought-in queen was the survivor.

Does this data point offer any inkling as to whether a closed-population model program might work in your location?

Seems more than coincidence that the only colony that survived is the survivor-stock queen.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> Sorry to read about your troubles- I was wondering as I read your previous post if your bought-in queen was the survivor.
> 
> Does this data point offer any inkling as to whether a closed-population model program might work in your location?
> 
> Seems more than coincidence that the only colony that survived is the survivor-stock queen.


Indeed, this purchased VSH queen is the survivor.
They survived, never thrived, and if not for my support they would have perished without a doubt as well - simply not being able to build up enough stores for the winter on their own.

They also heavily consumed the dry sugar placed on top of the frames under heavy insulation - the only way this smallish cluster could survive. They ate almost entire fondant pancake and started on the other.
If not for these, they'd most likely freeze away from honey frames (see pics). They basically just clustered above the frames and under insulation - in that warm pocket they were able to survive OK.

This brood frame picture I have been re-posting is telling a good story what kind of a beating they took.
The closed-population model based on 100% VSH queens will still take a heavy beating at my location and will be unproductive without some additional way to drop the mite levels.
This is even if I mate my queens at the VSH queen seller's site - (which I mean to do as a test) - mating at my own almond-drone infested location is poor.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> The closed-population model based on 100% VSH queens will still take a heavy beating at my location and will be unproductive without some additional way to drop the mite levels.


GregV:

I can appreciate the situation you are in and concede that it might always be a tough slog to make progress toward TF in your specific environment. That said, I am struck that the Wilderness Apiaries queen made it through where all others failed despite the local adaptation challenge of coming out of a maritime climate in addition to the presumed reduction in brood and foraging force as a result of the splits you took off, accepting that the colony needed help to make it through. In the spirit of constructive feedback as a outside observer, I wonder:

Are there any resistant mated queen stocks from a similar biotope as yours that you might be able to bring in that might help mitigate the local adaptation issue? Maybe through the Northern Bee Network?

Do you think the mite picture might have been different for the survivor queen colony had all the colonies in the immediate vicinity been of similar VSH bona fides?

Just thinking out loud here in wondering what I might consider if I were in your shoes- not trying to pile on.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Are there any resistant mated queen stocks from a similar biotope as yours that you might be able to bring in that might help mitigate the local adaptation issue? Maybe through the Northern Bee Network?


Regarding this - I catch plenty of bees that appear to be locally suitable.

For example, that colony that expired in March was of some lineage that I feel would be totally fine.
The mother colony of this March colony expired sometimes in February - also was a good colony.
So why did I loose these bees? Because I did not treat.

Rewinding back - I should have done a OA treatment on the initial swarm caught in June.
Then I should have OA treated the split off (when brood-less) when I did that in July.
A single effective knock-off would have likely saved this particular line - a shame but I now lost them.

I can only cross my fingers to again catch some promising bees - which I often do.
Pretty much I routinely enough catch some bees that hold out into January/February.
These, I hope, will be the candidates to benefit from a clean (re)start.

And then some other bees - a single OA cleanup will not do them any good - and if they still die then so be it .


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Do you think the mite picture might have been different for the survivor queen colony had all the colonies in the immediate vicinity been of similar VSH bona fides?


Probably so.
But let us be realistic - somehow, someone needs to go around and replace 50-100-200-(?) queens with the VSH stock in my vicinity in a single transaction.
Then repeat this the next year (to replace the losses and to cancel out the next batch of almond packages).
And the next year.

I will not do it and no one will do it.
And here is not China or Soviet Union to successfully pull of a similar deal - need to have strong autocratic environment for this to pull off. We can not even pull of a successful COVID vaccination in the US - trying to herd too many stray cats.

PS: I know - MSL will come and say: "Just sell those 2-day queen cups across the area".
Well, I don't even know who keeps the bees few houses over from me every single season.
People in the suburbs routinely decide they will "start keeping the bees" and no one reports to me about it.
I am not going to be knocking the doors along the street every spring to ask if they keep bees and then offer my queens. 
All I know that this particular season 2021 my back porch traps may not be as busy - not seen a single bee yet sniffing around my empty hives. Typically by now I have bees all over the empty equipment in the backyard. Maybe COVID got the bees this year.


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> All I know that this particular season 2021 my back porch traps may not be as busy - not seen a single bee yet sniffing around my empty hives. Typically by now I have bees all over the empty equipment in the backyard. Maybe COVID got the bees this year.


I have seen fewer than 10 bees this spring (other than my own hive). One or two in my garage sniffing my stacked frames. Zero checking out my back yard deadouts or the traps.


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> So why did I loose these bees? Because I did not treat.
> 
> Rewinding back - I should have done a OA treatment on the initial swarm caught in June.
> Then I should have OA treated the split off (when brood-less) when I did that in July.
> A single effective knock-off would have likely saved this particular line - a shame but I now lost them.
> 
> And then some other bees - a single OA cleanup will not do them any good - and if they still die then so be it .


A friend of mine who manages almond bees tells me he does OA dribble every week on every hive that comes back from Cali. Every week, all season long.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> A friend of mine who manages almond bees tells me he does OA dribble every week on every hive that comes back from Cali. Every week, all season long.


Now these are the kinds of bees or the management we don't need.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Regarding this - I catch plenty of bees that appear to be locally suitable.


GregV:

I think I can respect your position. I suppose what I was curious about is what might happen if one in your situation set-up a yard with locally-adapted, survivor-stock queens and all were equipped with robber screens and/or other techniques to minimize drift?

In other words, if one concedes that they live in a genetic wasteland, could a tightly-managed closed-population model work?

Not saying you should do this, just thinking through the possibilities.


----------



## lharder

In my neck of the woods, there is some momentum to raise local queens. This is an important first step. Also no one around here takes their bees to pollination (blueberries) that I know of. These are both positive steps towards sustainability and local adaptation. Still not part of the message at the provincial level, but local beekeepers are moving on.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> I think I can respect your position. I suppose what I was curious about is what might happen if one in your situation set-up a yard with locally-adapted, survivor-stock queens and all were equipped with robber screens and/or other techniques to minimize drift?
> 
> In other words, if one concedes that they live in a genetic wasteland, could a tightly-managed closed-population model work?
> 
> Not saying you should do this, just thinking through the possibilities.


A tightly-managed closed-population in a genetic wasteland.

OK, I suppose I can implement *additional *drift controls via robber screens.
At least to protect the most valuable stock i. e. daughters of my VSH queen.
Even though I am pretty happy with my reduced/blocked entrance methods as robbing prevention as I don't have this issue (rather common otherwise).
But of course, I don't know IF my entrances block any quiet drifting INTO my hives from across the landscape.

However - I never understood the logic of the anti-robbing devices installed into MY hives preventing MY own bees from robbing the mite bombs that occur across the vicinity. There was this writing posted here recently to that effect.

AFAIK - there is nothing that I can do protect myself from the late summer/early fall mite bombs. Per the local complaints, these incidents are very common in the vicinity, when many beeks don't even recognize they are being robbed. So this is the real and major issue on hand.

However, in long term the only way to maintain some sort of a closed population is to create and maintain some sort of closed-in mating area where we control the VSH drone presence. Without such mating yard(s) most any closed population will fade away without continuous queen imports.

To that effect, I got an agreement with my local VSH provider to bring my virgin material to his bee yard for mating.
Like I demonstrated last year yet (by video links) - the high quality mating yards are a feasible project and can be done (and, in fact, as a commercial project).
With any luck we will try this out this season. The VSH provider himself was unfamiliar with the concept so I had to explain... 
Though to him the community mating yard could be another source of income.

I am afraid the folks will not appreciate the mating yard idea and extra hassles around it.
To most here, locally mated queens means (magically!) a local queen. The sooner the better too! Understanding that the almond drones are controlling most of the air space is just not getting across.


----------



## GregB

lharder said:


> In my neck of the woods, there is some momentum to raise local queens. This is an important first step. Also no one around here takes their bees to pollination (blueberries) that I know of. These are both positive steps towards sustainability and local adaptation. Still not part of the message at the provincial level, but local beekeepers are moving on.


We do have local queen.
My lone survivor VSH queen was produced locally.
The main issue is (typical here) - vast majority of local folks have no discipline OR the understanding to hold the line *against *early imports. There is this "buy, buy, buy" frenzy stirred up by the vendors.
Meanwhile, our locally produced bees for sale will be only up in about a month the earliest.
Regarding the local queens - I would not even consider any local queen until July production.
But who is going to wait that long?

People don't even understand the very simple logic of "you start preparing for the winter as soon as you get your bees in May". You start this by getting the right bees.

Of course, the alternative ideas are around too, directly on BS - such as "the local bees don't matter". Some BS members from Canada are of that opinion.


----------



## GregB

To clarify this:


> I catch plenty of bees that appear to be locally suitable.


Last season out of 11 swarms that I caught, I subjectively felt 3-4 were of Russian and/or Carnica origin.
I later did the morpho-analysis across all my samples to also suggest the Russian and/or Carnica origins were present.

I would consider these bees to be "locally suitable" (partly why I also wanted to learn the morpho-analysis tools - so to better identify such bees).

If preserved (i.e. OA-treated as is necessary at my location) and propagated, these could be a good base for further local selection.
So I have had plenty of such opportunities - unfortunately wasted.
Hopefully, the planned future adjustments will be effective.


----------



## gww

Good luck.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> However - I never understood the logic of the anti-robbing devices installed into MY hives preventing MY own bees from robbing the mite bombs that occur across the vicinity. There was this writing posted here recently to that effect.


GregV:

Like I said, I'm not suggesting what you should do, just conducting a thought experiment in light of your situation.

My thought was that if someone in your situation:

1. Brought in mated, locally-adapted, survivor-stock queens and;

2. Provided relatively-tight drift control to help mitigate late-season mite migration (i.e. the study here),

They might have a reasonable chance of running a treatment-free or treatment-light operation with the caveat that it might involve regular re-queening.

So while it might not be self-sustaining, it might at least move in the direction of less treatments.

Just making conversation, so again, please don't take this as my suggestion as what you should do.


----------



## msl

GregV said:


> PS: I know - MSL will come and say:


Actually I would say the problem is not genetics, If genetics (out crossing) was your problem you would see hives with queens that had wintered twice or 3 times failing when they superseded. Your records show year one or year 2 failure to mites on all queens...meaning out crossing is not your problem, as you say


GregV said:


> So why did I loose these bees? Because I did not treat.


that has been your problem, and is very likely the areas problem (as it is in most suburban settings ), lack of good mite control leading to high mite pressure making good mite control harder

In your state treating BYBKs (5 year advarge) lose 52%
the eivel commercials with there "almond bees" that are so bad that they are only losing 25% in your state 
why? They take better care of their bees

Your weather is hard on bees, and your area sounds to have a high mite load...

We can yap all we want about "local" adaption, sure it has an effect. But we see NZ packages do just fine in Can with proper care
Like wise we see Etienne Tardif saying he doesn't have an issue overwintering CA commercial queens in the Yukon (zone 1) even in 5 frame nucs

Step one to Local improved stock is keeping the bees people have alive to lessen the need for imports, And the main step for that is good mite mangmnet


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> .........Just making conversation, so again, please don't take this as my suggestion as what you should do.


Sure - no suggestions.
In general, I prefer the least possible dependency on the outside inputs (which then require monetary outputs from me).

And surely, this may work, IMO.
As a pure, academic demonstration of TF possibility it surely should work for some amount of time (not indefinitely).

To your #1 and #2 pre-conditions there should be added #3, however.

3. The initial, nominally mite-sterile environment needs to be provided to the queens from #1. 
This is an important precondition.
I killed many queens without providing at least some resemblence of #3.

To my current sole survivor I provided a brood-less shook swarm of young bees.
That helped - combined with the VSH traits.
A single OA dribble of that shook swarm would make even a better start.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> In your state treating BYBKs (5 year advarge) lose 52%
> the eivel commercials with there "almond bees" that are so bad that they are only losing 25% in your state
> why? *They take better care of their bees*


Yes - sure, they do.
As AR1 said:


> A friend of mine who manages almond bees tells me *he does OA dribble every week on every hive that comes back from Cali. Every week, all season long.*


At this rate my honey pressing from the used brood frame will be producing honey with OA crystals in it. What is the value in that exactly for me?

The important difference:
1#) do you focus on *bee production*?
OR
2#) do you focus on *clean bee product* production?

Bee sellers clearly are focused on #1 and the formula for that has been well developed - "treat every week, all season long".

To be honest, the real money now days is in pollination and bee sales and that is where the priorities are.
Bee products? Meh.
US does not even have a good bee product market (I ranted enough already).
Trivial bee bread needs to be ordered from Bulgaria and Lithuania (of questionable purity).

I have been ranting all along - it is #2 for me.
Reliable bee supply is a good thing to have (not required but good to have) - which I don't have without predictable and sufficient survivability.
Predicable and sufficient survivability - this is what we are working on.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> Your records show year one or year 2 failure to mites on all queens...meaning out crossing is not your problem, as you say


Right.
The current over-wintered VSH queen is alive.
All three open-mated daughters - croaked in compatible conditions.
My very last example.


But like I said also - granted the clean starts, the daughters could have also survived (a current working theory). They did show OK mite counts - but was not low enough.


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> Right.
> The current over-wintered VSH queen is alive.
> All three open-mated daughters - croaked in compatible conditions.
> My very last example.
> 
> 
> But like I said also - granted the clean starts, the daughters could have also survived (a current working theory). They did show OK mite counts - but was not low enough.


Something occurred to me today, putting various strands together. Last year you were getting swarms weeks before I expected based on my last 5 years record keeping, and 90 miles south of your location. And, recently discussing almond bees management, I learned that hives back from cali are being split now in Wisconsin. They are far advanced over local bees and are already full of drones and ready to split and mate.

So, I suspect that the early swarms you were getting last year were directly from cali almond bees, bred with cali almond drones, arrived from cali just weeks before. The only local swarms would be those gotten in June or later. Local swarms here in N Illinois seem to begin at the very end of May. Local swarms in Madison would at my guess be at least a week later per the agricultural/climate cycle which predicts a growing season of one week later per 100 miles north in the Midwest.

Just my suspicions, and leads me to think those bees probably could do with a couple rounds of mite control early on, and might explain the poor results you have been getting.


----------



## GregB

Very well could be AR1.

Here is a quote from one such vendor ad dated *March 31, 2021:*



> We are still taking orders
> A 2 pound package with queen for $110 a 3 pound package for $125 with a queen. The queens are Italian, Buckfest, and Carnolian. *Delivering to Madison*, Greenville, Wausau and Eagle River Wisconsin


Basically, these will be the exact almond bees dumped onto my location.

I know from the past I caught some of such bees and sure will catch more of the same.
Many of the June swarms here will be from these package bees just sold - purchased by the new beeks who then put these packages into single deeps and don't expand them in time.

Not to mention the drone coverage in April/May is totally from these packages - basically why any "locally-mated" queen sold here in June is pretty much is an "almond queen".
In Spring 2019 I mated a queen in April just fine - this should be impossible but this is a fact - just took few warm days and that did it. The "almond drones" are the double-whammy.


----------



## lharder

GregV said:


> We do have local queen.
> My lone survivor VSH queen was produced locally.
> The main issue is (typical here) - vast majority of local folks have no discipline OR the understanding to hold the line *against *early imports. There is this "buy, buy, buy" frenzy stirred up by the vendors.
> Meanwhile, our locally produced bees for sale will be only up in about a month the earliest.
> Regarding the local queens - I would not even consider any local queen until July production.
> But who is going to wait that long?
> 
> People don't even understand the very simple logic of "you start preparing for the winter as soon as you get your bees in May". You start this by getting the right bees.
> 
> Of course, the alternative ideas are around too, directly on BS - such as "the local bees don't matter". Some BS members from Canada are of that opinion.


One way to get around this is to offer overwintered nucs that are ready early. My best are already in 3 medium boxes and would be a far better product than a early mated spring queen that is not tested at all that has 2 frames of brood near the end of May. Our problem is that many keepers are making early nucs with imported Kona queens. These are ready soon but an overwintered nuc is still ahead of them. 

The science of local adaptation is accumulating. The idea that it doesn't matter is more and more marginal. The next step is understanding the local nature of pathogen/pest environments and how we are probably making things more difficult for ourselves by moving pests/pathogens around the continent and between them. Much more research needs to be done on this. We have a detailed knowledge of covid-19 and its variants and how much trouble it has caused by not having adequate travel restrictions in place. Meanwhile New Zealand and Australia by understanding this issue and kept them at bay. Beekeepers and scientists still have a very simple understanding of the viruses that affect our bees. Considering almost every other virus seems to accumulate variants quickly, this is very naïve.
.


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## GregB

lharder said:


> One way to get around this is to offer overwintered nucs that are ready early


I know from the locals who have been trying to do this - success of local nuc overwintering has been marginal.
AND those over-wintered nucs are priced much higher (which they should be).
For many a bee purchaser, they still go after the budget product - a cheap early package built around on the almond bees and the southern queens.


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## lharder

They should be wondering why they have to buy bees all the time.


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## msl

and were should they get these magic local bees? that's the rub

but really it matters not (BIP 5 year for the state) they will just kill them any way

34% of them are TF and run 5.2 hives
40% only use a single cemical and have 5.8 hives
20% used 2 cemicals and have 10.1 hives

when you run it by total loses
the TF mannged group loses 65.8%
single cemical lose 60.1%
and 2 cemicals loses 42.5%

mean while those who do Alcohol Wash only take 34% loses, but only 8% of the BYBKs do washes!!!!!

What we clearly see is the vast majority are not efectily managing their mites, and it shows in their loses, and those around them as 1 mite bomb can easily kill 2 other managed hives peck, Seeley (2019).

Local stock could help.... but its not going to do much in a sea of mite bombs caused by poor management

I have high hopes for Gregs "clean" starts.. but given the local numbers I wonder if its enough to turn the tide...


----------



## GregB

lharder said:


> They should be wondering why they have to buy bees all the time.


Unfortunately, what happens is that even the so-called "local" bees (purchased for the premium price) - ALL die the same here.
Like I said - the treatment regiments of the bee sellers (#1) and bee product producers (#2) are subject to different priorities.
Most small suburban beeks are #2 - we basically want honey.

And so you have the #1 guys who swear their bees are doing great, they are "local" and even over-wintered, yadda, yadda.... (This is outside of the straight-forward bee importers).

Well, remember - the #1 guys have the top priority to grow and preserve the bee stock AND they can afford to treat weekly all season long AND they can afford to use combination of *any *commercially available treatments as they see fit (amitraz, OA, FA, etc).
If I looked for any real money in bees, I'd be in bee sales and that's it.

Well, if you are a #2 guy - you have no easy way out.
You are trying to build up strong honey producing units AND you are trying to minimize the treatments because you are trying to minimize the bee product pollution (unless you don't care).
It is even harder if trying to do any non-conventional products.

So - IF everyone was keeping bees for only the bee sales and queen sales context would be different.
Well, eventually someone down the line keeps the bees for the honey AND the main continuous flow happens to take place around here in July and into August (could be as late as September). AND so you have the situation where the main honey harvest and heaviest mite build up coincide. You should be treating but yet you must have you honey supers on if you want to capture the main flow intakes.

PS: the latest OA regulation I hope will help a lot with this conundrum.
PPS: the peculiarities of the local flows are often under-appreciated if appreciated at all - but this is a big part of the mite equation and affect when exactly people treat or do not treat; so again, the latest OA ruling should really help with the conflicting priorities;


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> I have high hopes for Gregs "clean" starts.


Me too.
My goal is still to only achieve the 50% survivability - but to have is consistent and predictable.
If I get that, I will be ahead of most people around here already and maybe the method then can be improved further.

It would be great to not depend on the swarm chasing (which is a fun activity but is far from being consistent and predictable).


----------



## msl

GregV said:


> PS: the latest OA regulation I hope will help a lot with this conundrum.


I think its going to make things worse...the internet permoting its use at a time of year it's not effective coupled with lack of mite montering can be a disaster 
right now I am rebuilding an apiary for a 501c3 farm/orchard that donates all its produce (including honey) to food banks
There last beekeeper (who only lasted a year) vaped every 2 weeks or so all season (blocking the supers with political signs )
they took 87% losses.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> I think its going to make things worse...


You maybe right just as well. 
It is a double-edged sword.

I can see how people in my area will just keep the honey supers on through July, August and September (and keep treating).
The issue will become - why bother with any of the bio-tech sides of the equation (the brood-less colony setups for the effective treating - that is essentially the bio-tech component of the control).
Now that one can treat with the honey on - heck, just treat, treat, treat AND harvest the honey too.

OK, this will enable the approach where a honey-farmer can just "hammer-treat" just as a bee-farmer.
So the OA regulation is good for the honey-producers/BYBKs - but it is easy to be misused and/or abused.


----------



## AR1

msl said:


> There last beekeeper (who only lasted a year) vaped every 2 weeks or so all season (blocking the supers with political signs )
> they took 87% losses.


That's like pulling weeds but not getting the roots. 

Just how long are adult mites outside of the cell after emerging? How long are they actually vulnerable to OA? That window has to be hit often enough for long enough to eliminate an entire generation of mites, to do much good.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> That's like pulling weeds but not getting the roots.


Good analogy.










If one is to bother treating, it should work like this (though I am not a fan of the weekly treatment)










OR like this (now I am a fan):


----------



## AR1

So, pull the queen into a nuc without brood and treat the nuc, while treating the original colony several times before recombining after about a month, to catch an entire mite cycle? A lot of busywork, but if the queen has a place to lay there shouldn't be too great a loss of brood production.

Seems like it would work for a guy with a small number of backyard colonies.


----------



## AR1

Hmm. We are drifting away from the rules of the treatment-free forum.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Hmm. We are drifting away from the rules of the treatment-free forum.


Yes I am.
I am doing this in the name of objective facts and observations, and hopefully honest, context-based and working methodologies.
In fact, those willing can accuse me of deliberate and methodical undermining of the TF forum.
LOL

If someone wants to demonstrate to me how to consistently achieve my 50% survivability goal at my location TREATMENT-FREE - I am all ears. 

I have my numbers to show.
Someone needs to come to my place, try it for as long and show their TF numbers.
Another local TF guys recently said "he is having a bad year".
Well, I never heard his exact survival numbers all this time and anymore don't plan on hearing them anytime soon.
LOL


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> So, pull the queen into a nuc without brood and treat the nuc, while treating the original colony several times before recombining after about a month, to catch an entire mite cycle? A lot of busywork, but if the queen has a place to lay there shouldn't be too great a loss of brood production.
> 
> Seems like it would work for a guy with a small number of backyard colonies.


In fact, not a lot of additional work outside of just regular splitting work.
Unless you consider routine splitting work to be busy work - then yes, it is busy. 

*Two *OA treatments done along side the routine maintenance.
These also done during the preferred time (June to early July - the latest).

You split as this:
1)Fly-back split - completely brood-less and queen-right - treat anytime until capped brood - clean restart for the season.
2)Brood-right and queen-less resource hive - use for the propagation projects as needed (e.g. queen raising) - treat at the point when no more capped brood left - clean restart for the season.

These should work in combination with good enough VSH/TF bees.
If the bees are not good enough, well then they will die most likely.


----------



## SeaCucumber

The current way I do OAV, I do it sometime in summer or fall. I try to find a time when brood production is going down for winter. I treat strongly in winter. I don't have a reason to treat in spring. Drops indicate that I probably kill all the mites in winter.

Here's my plan (for when I know how to keep bees).

Buy TF queens (purebreds). Put them in treated hives.
Make queens from these.
Make lots of TF QCs (queen cells), and sell them.
Treat some of the unpure based on counts and DWV.
Over a few years, the unpure might get pure enough.
Maybe do II (instrumental insemination) or drone egg fertilizing.
You will want to make your queens on a bee free island, or use II.


----------



## William Bagwell

SeaCucumber said:


> drone egg fertilizing


I'll bite. What is drone egg fertilizing?

But yes, your 1 (a) through 3 is my plan as well. Learn enough the next few years practicing with production queens then splurge on a ~$300 II breeder queen just before I retire.


----------



## GregB

SeaCucumber said:


> The current way I do OAV, I do it sometime in summer or fall. I try to find a time when brood production is going down for winter. I treat strongly in winter. I don't have a reason to treat in spring. Drops indicate that I probably kill all the mites in winter.
> 
> Here's my plan (for when I know how to keep bees).
> 
> Buy TF queens (purebreds). Put them in treated hives.
> Make queens from these.
> Make lots of TF QCs (queen cells), and sell them.
> Treat some of the unpure based on counts and DWV.
> Over a few years, the unpure might get pure enough.
> Maybe do II (instrumental insemination) or drone egg fertilizing.
> You will want to make your queens on a bee free island, or use II.


Pretty good plan as it sounds to me.

But I will not bother with purchasing an island and learning the II.


----------



## msl

SeaCucumber said:


> You will want to make your queens on a bee free island, or use II.


I have both, the II is cheaper and more convent

Well not quite an inland, but close enuff for bee work, surrounded by miles and miles of this... but its a 5 hour round trip












GregV said:


> Pretty good plan as it sounds to me.


Arguably not... all the inlands and II matter not if you don't have a strong selection program, that is what makes or breaks a breeding program

The kicker, is that TF breeder queens often don't make TF daughters... Randy O is breeding from the best of his TF hives, has been for years, still has to treat 90% of his hives, _John Kefuss_ program in south America had 100% TF breeders and never got the production hives to be TF, same story with Megan milbreth, and many many others inculding

I like to use the example of Jose Uribe running 1500 mateing nucs in CA, grafting off TF breeders, still needs to treat his production hives.. big "almond" bee operation, producing TF queens, many more like him, it wrong to think the big guys arn't taking reticent stock seriurisy.



William Bagwell said:


> Learn enough the next few years practicing with production queens then splurge on a ~$300 II breeder queen just before I retire.


Its not that hard, I sold 75 queens last year.... payed for the II rig and the trip to get training on it... 
selling 10 queens at $30 each covers that breeders cost... my VSH carny show up in 3 weeks or so


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> Arguably not... all the inlands and II matter not if you don't have a strong selection program, that is what makes or breaks a breeding program


He will sell his "TF" queens the same most people sell the "TF" queens.
Nothing wrong with the buying $300 queen and selling the $30 daughters - a typical and working business model implemented by most all queen sellers (TF or not).
It is a pretty good plan IF one to make money selling queens.

I don't know if long-term "purity" thing will work - very much depends on a particular setting.
Most likely the long-term part will not work in Hamilton, MA.

Overall, that is why the plan is only "*pretty good*", but no better than that (IMO).
Pretty good is a far cry from perfect. 
But also the "pretty good" is a very safe call to make in most any cases - hard to miss completely, LOL.


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> Well not quite an inland, but close enuff for bee work...


Looks like a good option, MSL. Better be careful- with your training in II and a closed mating site, you might become the next Steve Taber.

Keep up the good work with your club program- I'm impressed you've taken a vision and made it a reality.


----------



## lharder

GregV said:


> Unfortunately, what happens is that even the so-called "local" bees (purchased for the premium price) - ALL die the same here.
> Like I said - the treatment regiments of the bee sellers (#1) and bee product producers (#2) are subject to different priorities.
> Most small suburban beeks are #2 - we basically want honey.
> 
> And so you have the #1 guys who swear their bees are doing great, they are "local" and even over-wintered, yadda, yadda.... (This is outside of the straight-forward bee importers).
> 
> Well, remember - the #1 guys have the top priority to grow and preserve the bee stock AND they can afford to treat weekly all season long AND they can afford to use combination of *any *commercially available treatments as they see fit (amitraz, OA, FA, etc).
> If I looked for any real money in bees, I'd be in bee sales and that's it.
> 
> Well, if you are a #2 guy - you have no easy way out.
> You are trying to build up strong honey producing units AND you are trying to minimize the treatments because you are trying to minimize the bee product pollution (unless you don't care).
> It is even harder if trying to do any non-conventional products.
> 
> So - IF everyone was keeping bees for only the bee sales and queen sales context would be different.
> Well, eventually someone down the line keeps the bees for the honey AND the main continuous flow happens to take place around here in July and into August (could be as late as September). AND so you have the situation where the main honey harvest and heaviest mite build up coincide. You should be treating but yet you must have you honey supers on if you want to capture the main flow intakes.
> 
> PS: the latest OA regulation I hope will help a lot with this conundrum.
> PPS: the peculiarities of the local flows are often under-appreciated if appreciated at all - but this is a big part of the mite equation and affect when exactly people treat or do not treat; so again, the latest OA ruling should really help with the conflicting priorities;


 Around here keepers sell bees and sell honey


----------



## lharder

msl said:


> I have both, the II is cheaper and more convent
> 
> Well not quite an inland, but close enuff for bee work, surrounded by miles and miles of this... but its a 5 hour round trip
> View attachment 63475
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Arguably not... all the inlands and II matter not if you don't have a strong selection program, that is what makes or breaks a breeding program
> 
> The kicker, is that TF breeder queens often don't make TF daughters... Randy O is breeding from the best of his TF hives, has been for years, still has to treat 90% of his hives, _John Kefuss_ program in south America had 100% TF breeders and never got the production hives to be TF, same story with Megan milbreth, and many many others inculding
> 
> I like to use the example of Jose Uribe running 1500 mateing nucs in CA, grafting off TF breeders, still needs to treat his production hives.. big "almond" bee operation, producing TF queens, many more like him, it wrong to think the big guys arn't taking reticent stock seriurisy.
> 
> Randy is taking his bees to almonds. A hopeless case.
> 
> Its not that hard, I sold 75 queens last year.... payed for the II rig and the trip to get training on it...
> selling 10 queens at $30 each covers that breeders cost... my VSH carny show up in 3 weeks or so


----------



## GregB

lharder said:


> Around here keepers sell bees and sell honey


Some certainly will do.
But you need to have a big enough scale and favorable conditions and serious enough motivation (like really making money).

Residential beeks in a dense suburban setup don't sell bees and don't sell honey.
The hobby people don't sell anything at all, to speak of.
But the priority is honey production - why people want to have bees in the very first place.
Bee density in my area is quite high, as it turns out - these are all hobby honey producers.

Few streets over someone put up a couple of brand new, shiny hives visible from a road.
These are brand new people trying the beekeeping.
Not a clue what kind of bees and where they got them.
For every case I get to spy out, there will be several cases I will never know about.


----------



## lharder

We have those in town as well. Its where the provincial and state people need to step up and make sure they get the toughest bees possible. We still haven't figured out that the bees for the home market/sideliner should be different from those with big operations in slavery to industrialized agriculture. They will still get honey and have better success overwintering.


----------



## msl

lharder said:


> We still haven't figured out that the bees for the home market/sideliner should be different from those with big operations


I think most have, but the bees don't exist in many places


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> Some certainly will do.
> But you need to have a big enough scale and favorable conditions and serious enough motivation (like really making money).
> 
> Residential beeks in a dense suburban setup don't sell bees and don't sell honey.
> The hobby people don't sell anything at all, to speak of.
> But the priority is honey production - why people want to have bees in the very first place.
> Bee density in my area is quite high, as it turns out - these are all hobby honey producers.
> 
> Few streets over someone put up a couple of brand new, shiny hives visible from a road.
> These are brand new people trying the beekeeping.
> Not a clue what kind of bees and where they got them.
> For every case I get to spy out, there will be several cases I will never know about.


This certainly describes me. I sell nothing and don't plan to as long as I am working full time. Right now I am playing with the bees, hoping to learn enough that in a few years I can retire with a hobby that pays for itself. 

My neighbors a 'few streets over' have had a bees the last few years. Every winter I notice the hive is tumbled over and every spring it is set back up with bees inside again. Except this year it has not been set back up. I guess they gave up...


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Except this year it has not been set back up. I guess they gave up...


LOL
Ask them for the equipment to buy on the cheap.
I would.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> This certainly describes me.


And me.
I certainly don't sell anything to speak of (save for few queens).

Which puzzles many people because every fall I technically have up to 15-20 hives.
Like what?
You don't sell honey?
Don't you have, like, buckets and buckets and buckets of honey to sell?
Puzzled look.

No, I don't.
I have been working out the "expansion model TF beekeeping" all this time - with not much to show for it.
Hard to explain to average folks.
LOL


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> Which puzzles many people because every fall I technically have up to 15-20 hives.
> 
> I have been working out the "expansion model TF beekeeping" all this time - with not much to show for it.
> Hard to explain to average folks.
> LOL


Pretty much. At one point last summer I had 12 hives. Now I have one. So my advice regarding bees at this point is valued at about what it weighs in pixels on the screen. I certainly have experience in what not to do, but figuring out the lessons and applying them is taking more time. Somehow that doesn't stop me from spouting my opinions, but I hope I maintain a little modesty.

Plan for today, if the rain ever stops, is to visit my lone hive and look for queen cells, and to see how much they are expanding into the new box, hoping for some brood up there.


----------



## AR1

msl said:


> I think most have, but the bees don't exist in many places


But hope abides...We have probably all seen those colonies that just seem to do well, hardly a mite to be found in them, and other colonies that regardless of treatment or location crash within the year. 

Plenty of tropical and subtropical bees seem to have made the transition to tolerance, but sadly it doesn't appear that the all of the means they use, smaller colonies, higher energy expenditure, very frequent swarming, translate to our northern bees. But every year is a harsh evolutionary lesson. 

I'd like to try the supposedly more tolerant races, mite biters, hygenic, Russians, what have you. A friend has offered a split from his hives, and he has some Russian crosses. Be fun to see them.


----------



## HaplozygousNut

AR1 said:


> Something occurred to me today, putting various strands together. Last year you were getting swarms weeks before I expected based on my last 5 years record keeping, and 90 miles south of your location. And, recently discussing almond bees management, I learned that hives back from cali are being split now in Wisconsin. They are far advanced over local bees and are already full of drones and ready to split and mate.
> 
> So, I suspect that the early swarms you were getting last year were directly from cali almond bees, bred with cali almond drones, arrived from cali just weeks before. The only local swarms would be those gotten in June or later. Local swarms here in N Illinois seem to begin at the very end of May. Local swarms in Madison would at my guess be at least a week later per the agricultural/climate cycle which predicts a growing season of one week later per 100 miles north in the Midwest.
> 
> Just my suspicions, and leads me to think those bees probably could do with a couple rounds of mite control early on, and might explain the poor results you have been getting.


AR1, are you near the Great Lakes? Maritime climates could delay the warming of the Springtime and maybe delay bloom times because of the cold breeze from the lake coming out of Winter.

Madison, where Greg is from, is farther inland. I noticed how Minneapolis was much colder this winter than Milwaukee, but now in the Spring Minneapolis has warm fronts come through, but Milwaukee has stayed cool during even those warm periods in Spring (I saw from watching the Newspaper weather section).


----------



## GregB

HaplozygousNut said:


> AR1, are you near the Great Lakes?


AR is just about ~50 miles south of me. Inland. IL


----------



## HaplozygousNut

GregV said:


> AR is just about ~50 miles south of me. Inland. IL


Oh, okay. It is probably Italian bees building up earlier then, as AR1 thought. Italians are known to eat through all their stores in build-up and then die when the unpredictable Spring nectar stops from a cold snap.


----------



## AR1

HaplozygousNut said:


> Oh, okay. It is probably Italian bees building up earlier then, as AR1 thought. Italians are known to eat through all their stores in build-up and then die when the unpredictable Spring nectar stops from a cold snap.


No, not really related to 'italians' or any other race of bees. It is related to the climate in Cali during almond pollinating. Those bees are out working the groves long before Wisconsin bees, so they are ready to split, their drones are mature 2 months earlier. This has nothing to do with bee race, but it is weather/climate controlled.


----------



## HaplozygousNut

Right, that makes better sense. That could be why the "Italian" bees have such a bad reputation for eating through too much stores and starving in Spring. Rather than it being Italian bees, it is that they have been bred for so many generations to build-up unnaturally early for almond pollination (by artificial feeding?).


----------



## HaplozygousNut

HaplozygousNut said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> AR1 do you have top entrances to let moisture out of the hives during winter? I found that I have to do it or the bees can die or at least be stressed during the Winter without the top ventilation. I have read from Thomas Seeley that swarms prefer to live in hives that have a bottom entrance. But practically in my experience our bees had moisture issues with only a bottom entrance.
> Thomas Seeley also wrote that the swarms preferred to nest in the size of just one Langstroth box (40 liters), which is much smaller than what beekeepers do. I remember also about Thomas Seeley writing that the colonies kept in one Langstroth box survived by far better than larger hives of 2 Langstroth box.
> 
> Could my moisture issues be due to overwintering hives in large 2 or 3 story hives, which makes it necessary for top entrances? If there is less volume then the air may naturally ventilate out more so in the smaller 1 box Langstroth colonies, so that top entrances are not necessary for ventilation. I have noticed that 1 story colonies over winter beautifully and expand rapidly in the Winter/Spring to become large colonies. I am going to try keeping bees in smaller volume hives.
> 
> -Nathaniel Long


I just got this month's bee journal magazine and it had an article by Dr. Markus Rock about the moisture issues during winter and how tree hollow hives are better for controlling air flow than in frame hives (same article online: (PDF) Overwintering in tree cavities - example for honey bee magazine hives):
_*"An essential factor influencing the heat balance is air ventilation within the habitat: While an airflow transports off heat, stagnant air is a good insulator that retains the heat."*_

How combs built in the tree hollow help stop air circulation:
_*"This means that the cross-section in the tree is usually so small that the winter cluster can completely seal it off at the sides. This prevents air circulation around the cluster. Above the cluster there is also no air ventilation, because the honeycombs hanging down from the top act as air flow stoppers. In addition, the honeycombs form individual air pockets, which further enhance the insulating effect because warm air is stored between them. The bees themselves therefore only have to insulate the surface downward."

"In a conventional magazine hive, on the other hand, the conditions are completely different from those in the cavity of the tree. When the bees heat up the winter cluster, warm air rises to the top and can spread out in a ll directions underneath the top cover."*_

There is more about it in the article. It still says that the moisture issues without a top entrance on the hive mystery or that the way bees take moisture out of the hive during winter is a mystery. Top-bar hives might be better for moisture problem during winter because the combs attached directly to the ceiling of the hive (top bars) stop air flow.


----------



## AR1

HaplozygousNut said:


> I just got this month's bee journal magazine and it had an article by Dr. Markus Rock about the moisture issues during winter and how tree hollow hives are better for controlling air flow than in frame hives (same article online: (PDF) Overwintering in tree cavities - example for honey bee magazine hives):
> _*"An essential factor influencing the heat balance is air ventilation within the habitat: While an airflow transports off heat, stagnant air is a good insulator that retains the heat."*_
> 
> How combs built in the tree hollow help stop air circulation:
> _*"This means that the cross-section in the tree is usually so small that the winter cluster can completely seal it off at the sides. This prevents air circulation around the cluster. Above the cluster there is also no air ventilation, because the honeycombs hanging down from the top act as air flow stoppers. In addition, the honeycombs form individual air pockets, which further enhance the insulating effect because warm air is stored between them. The bees themselves therefore only have to insulate the surface downward."
> 
> "In a conventional magazine hive, on the other hand, the conditions are completely different from those in the cavity of the tree. When the bees heat up the winter cluster, warm air rises to the top and can spread out in a ll directions underneath the top cover."*_
> 
> There is more about it in the article. It still says that the moisture issues without a top entrance on the hive mystery or that the way bees take moisture out of the hive during winter is a mystery. Top-bar hives might be better for moisture problem during winter because the combs attached directly to the ceiling of the hive (top bars) stop air flow.


There are several issues mentioned, which makes it hard to see what the effects of any one of them are. My only survivor this year was in 2 mediums, with heavy insulation on top. Bottom only opening.


----------



## msl

HaplozygousNut said:


> Top-bar hives might be better for moisture problem during winter because the combs attached directly to the ceiling of the hive (top bars) stop air flow.


its likely the reverse.. the warm air flows along the roof form the front (form were the cluster is) to the back and the moisture condenses there, away form the cluster




AR1 said:


> My only survivor this year was in 2 mediums, with heavy insulation on top. Bottom only opening


In this case the moisture condenses on the cooler side walls, away form the cluster. a lot of of lang moisture issues comes form a thin wood and metal top causing the roof to be the cold spot for condensation 



HaplozygousNut said:


> That could be why the "Italian" bees have such a bad reputation for eating through too much stores and starving in Spring. Rather than it being Italian bees, it is that they have been bred for so many generations to build-up unnaturally early for almond pollination (by artificial feeding?).


yes and no...
No more then breeding bees to built up in time for apple pollination...CA has an early bloom over all 



JWChesnut said:


> I'm in California. I begin feeding sub when the ****** Eucalyptus and Arroyo Willow blooms. In my area this is late December


in short you cant judge CA by your climate


----------



## GregB

HaplozygousNut said:


> It still says that the moisture issues without a top entrance on the hive mystery or that the way bees take moisture out of the hive during winter is a mystery. Top-bar hives might be better for moisture problem during winter because the combs attached directly to the ceiling of the hive (top bars) stop air flow.


From








Hive designs and their advantages and disadvantages


Two different views on stores consumption. Not mentioned is the influence of colony size and whether or not brooding is occurring equally. There will be a huge difference due to type of bee (Italian or Carni) and how this will affect their inclination to raise brood. Carnis will cease to brood...




www.beesource.com




........Based on my experience (and observation of others) I find this entire "ventilation" problem artificially over-complicated.
In winter it is easily solved by:
1) creation of sufficient air buffer within the wintering hive (air-pockets in wide hives or bottom air-buffer in narrow hives)
2) having mid-way positioned air access/entrance - to prevent suffocation and natural in/out ventilation (a single midway entrance will do)

No need for screens/mashes/similar gymnastics........

The top-bars in my location have shown poor results in most all respects (including moisture).
Not recommended here.


----------



## AR1

msl said:


> In this case the moisture condenses on the cooler side walls, away form the cluster. a lot of of lang moisture issues comes form a thin wood and metal top causing the roof to be the cold spot for condensation


That was my thinking, after reading many posts here on beesource. Walls are one inch wood, top is fiberglass batting, enough to fill a medium or deep with a small air gap on top, then a 3/4 inch plywood telescoping cover. The fiberglass batting becomes distinctly moist but the bees remain nice and dry. Since trying this the last two winters I have not seen any signs of moisture problems.


----------



## HaplozygousNut

Gray Goose said:


> Nathaniel,
> 
> did the feed you put on have the time to be dehydrated and capped?
> If it is mostly open cell and uncapped the feed is being applied too late, you want capped feed not open feed.I had a couple that were light and feed last min and did see a lot of open cells in the comb while inspecting the dead outs.
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> GG


Often I would feed through to late Summer or Fall. A few times I fed syrup through Winter, and the bees would continue breeding. But I think I remember having colonies that were done with feeding in Summer that should have had enough time to cap the syrup before Fall, but still had moisture issues. Cracking the lids with sticks fixed the moisture problem easily, and the bees with cracked lids did wonderfully through Winter and build up early in Spring.

We get a little nectar in early Winter, so that might be a reason why I have moisture issues if I don't crack our lids.


----------



## AR1

HaplozygousNut said:


> Cracking the lids with sticks fixed the moisture problem easily, and the bees with cracked lids did wonderfully through Winter and build up early in Spring.


How long did you leave them propped open?
How much gap?
How cold does it get there, and for how long?


----------



## HaplozygousNut

AR1 said:


> How long did you leave them propped open?
> How much gap?
> How cold does it get there, and for how long?


I try to leave them propped open the whole year now, incase the bees are somehow able to thicken their honey comb in response to the top ventilation (don't know if it makes a difference.). But at least I would have to leave the lid cracked about a half inch through the whole Winter. Without a bottom entrance the air flow may not be too bad in chilling the bees.

Usually we have one night down to the upper teens each Winter. Sometimes we get a day that doesn't get above freezing during Winter, but not every Winter I don't think. The bees are active as long as there is syrup feeding or nectar coming in during the Winter. We have pollen year round, so I don't have to worry about pollen feeding.


----------



## AR1

HaplozygousNut said:


> I try to leave them propped open the whole year now, incase the bees are somehow able to thicken their honey comb in response to the top ventilation (don't know if it makes a difference.). But at least I would have to leave the lid cracked about a half inch through the whole Winter. Without a bottom entrance the air flow may not be too bad in chilling the bees.
> 
> Usually we have one night down to the upper teens each Winter. Sometimes we get a day that doesn't get above freezing during Winter, but not every Winter I don't think. The bees are active as long as there is syrup feeding or nectar coming in during the Winter. We have pollen year round, so I don't have to worry about pollen feeding.


So, basically no winter. I'd be concerned to have that much upper airflow here with temps below zero. 

Last winter I had one colony with a small hole in the upper box, 1/2 inch. The hive died, and the small remaining cluster was packed into the corner farthest from that hole. No idea if the cold killed that hive, I doubt it, but they didn't seem to like the hole.


----------



## HaplozygousNut

AR1 said:


> So, basically no winter. I'd be concerned to have that much upper airflow here with temps below zero.
> 
> Last winter I had one colony with a small hole in the upper box, 1/2 inch. The hive died, and the small remaining cluster was packed into the corner farthest from that hole. No idea if the cold killed that hive, I doubt it, but they didn't seem to like the hole.


Our native trees loose their leaves in Winter, although the none natives like dandelions and henbit keep growing through the Winter. It is eerie to walk through the leafless woods in mid-winter when it gets into the 70sF. But then the next week we could have a night down to the teens. So our coldest nights are comparable to parts of Europe, yet our average winter temperature (45F in January) is warmer from the temperature swings we have. It is similar in New York City, their coldest night this year was 17 or 18F. We sometimes get the first freezing night in November before New York City here in Wake Forest. Although that could be because New York City has Maritime influence (delaying Winter).

I have read an article in the bee journal about overwintering bees exposed in a screen box outside in Michigan. They said the bees did fine through the cold nights till they had a windy blizzard. They said that the bees survive rather cold temperatures without insulation as long as the wind doesn't chill the bees on the outside of the cluster. But I can't find that article...

Edit: Studies do show that bees prefer a bottom entrance when swarms look for nesting locations. I read from Thomas Seeley's research.


----------



## GregB

HaplozygousNut said:


> Edit: Studies do show that bees prefer a bottom entrance when swarms look for nesting locations. I read from Thomas Seeley's research.


He claimed this in his early study(s).
Later he himself admitted this was a wrong conclusion (in his later study(s))


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> He claimed this in his early study(s).
> Later he himself admitted this was a wrong conclusion (in his later study(s))


On p. 116 of "The Lives of the Bees" he he does talk about an experiment with entrances he did.
It looks like this picture - rather a primitive binary experiment which hardly ever occurs naturally (vs. measuring statistical preference over several possibilities).

In real life my bees tell me they prefer the *upper-trending* entrance every time if given a choice - see the real life picture.


----------



## GregB

I figured I do a little bump to my "blog".
Started implementing my "clean (re)start" method.
Will see how it goes...

I missed the first swarm and they already capped their first brood - not much point in OA cleanup application.
But the second swarm landed virtually in front of me and so I did the cleanup (2.5% OA dribble).
That's the only cleanup they will get.

In July, things permitting, I will try to create a batch queens of my surviving line and create a bunch of clean artificial starts. Bees will be shaken from the caught swarms, OA cleaned up, and used for all kinds of slice and dice permutations.

In my defense of breaking the "TF forum rules" - I have been demonstrating by own example and for long enough time now that the binary TF/non-TF is really a misguided approach.
In reality it is a range of the practical situations from A to Z that require appropriate course of actions in each and every case.

So here it is, like it or leave it.


----------



## msl

squarepeg said:


> from the 'unique forum rules':
> 
> "Any post advocating the use of treatments, according to the forum definition of treatment will be considered off topic and shall be moved to another forum or deleted by a moderator, *unless it is employed as part of a plan in becoming treatment free.*"
> 
> (emphasis mine)
> 
> this allows for the contingency that there may be those who might consider treatments as a stop gap measure to save a colony which has not been able to 'do it on it's own', and prevent the loss of time, money, and a live colony of bees.


----------



## GregB

Time for a little update...

12 separate units on various shapes and sizes on hand.
These all mean to be permanent colonies in the end, depending how things develop and if more swarms land on me.
Two anti-swarm splits from my wintered VSH queen.
Others are natural swarms trapped or artificial swarms (I made two shook swarms so far).

In few days now I should have enough QCs on hand to arrange a fleet of little mating nucs.
The bottle cap project is also in progress - first batch was a failure and I redid that again - different subject.

Pretty much I was able to shower every new swarm (natural or artificial) with 2.5% OA (minus one swarm which found too late - this one is WIP).
I just did it regardless of the status and did not bother measuring mites - only one condition was required - brood-less colony.
I observed no bad effects on the bees.
I don't know about the mites.

So I have no other plans to treat again until I have a unit that is conveniently brood-less and the I will see. Of course, the plan so far is to re-queen every single swarm I captured to my surviving VSH line. None of the swarms looks to be anything special - all of them are of "US pollinator" type bees.

The mother VSH did not get any treatments BUT, she went through a brood-less shook swarm herself.
I also removed the very first frame they capped AFTER the shook swarm (to capture and remove any remnants of mites).
That is the only treatment they they got - complete brood removal.

A very interesting observation - the crap-shoot brood pattern of the VSH mother queen very markedly improved after this thorough brood removal. So indeed this may be a demonstration how the VSH bees last season struggled under the mite pressure - characteristically poor brood pattern.

Attaching the before/after, the diffs are very clear.
In the after pictures I circled the capped brood so it is clear - the "after" pattern is markedly good.
While the swarming is known to shed mites, this complete brood removal (including the very first capped frame AFTER the swarm) seems to be working well as chem-free mite mitigation.

I have no OA plans for the VSH mother queen - should not need to.
If she can provide me with frames and frames of VSH eggs for various needs that would be just awesome.


----------



## msl

GregV said:


> the crap-shoot brood pattern of the VSH mother queen very markedly improved after this thorough brood removal. So indeed this may be a demonstration how the VSH bees last season struggled under the mite pressure - characteristically poor brood pattern.


The mapulation increases the nurse to brood ratio by quite a lot and will "cure" many ills...
You often hear of requeening and "the flow" as EFB cures.. in bolth cases the brood production is throttled back increasing the ratio and letting the bees make head way against the problem.




GregV said:


> I have no OA plans for the VSH mother queen - should not need to.


I would argue the reverse, she is worth protection above all others
Of note, you may need to!!!
Your use of foundationless gives the mites a 4x boost (compared to foundation frames in good condition) do to the volume of drone comb and VSH doesn't work very well in drone.. so you could be easly over run



> This study compared the reactions of VSH bees with mite-infested worker and drone brood in a laboratory test and a field test. VSH bees inspected brood cells containing mite-infested pupae of both types of brood, but they removed significantly fewer mite-infested drone pupae than mite-infested worker pupae after 1 wk. This result suggests that mite populations in VSH colonies could increase more rapidly when drone brood is available


 (PDF) Effect of Brood Type on Varroa-Sensitive Hygiene by Worker Honey Bees (Hymenoptera: Apidae)


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> Your use of foundationless gives the mites a 4x boost (compared to foundation frames in good condition) do to the volume of drone comb and VSH doesn't work very well in drone.. so you could be easly over run


Will see about the drones.
It maybe the stress of a shook swarm is a good thing - the VSH bees/queen are not interested in the drone making just yet.
Making only the bees and nothing else for now (stress of rapid depopulation and being brood-less distracts from the drone making I recon).
Maybe later.

I very well may send her through another shook swarm, depending how things develop.
OR, I may steal their capped brood and do the one-time OA, depending how strong they become.

I almost wish I could spend the summer vacation around bees, playing about.... 
Well, not going to happen.


----------



## lharder

msl said:


> The mapulation increases the nurse to brood ratio by quite a lot and will "cure" many ills...
> You often hear of requeening and "the flow" as EFB cures.. in bolth cases the brood production is throttled back increasing the ratio and letting the bees make head way against the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> I would argue the reverse, she is worth protection above all others
> Of note, you may need to!!!
> Your use of foundationless gives the mites a 4x boost (compared to foundation frames in good condition) do to the volume of drone comb and VSH doesn't work very well in drone.. so you could be easly over run
> 
> 
> (PDF) Effect of Brood Type on Varroa-Sensitive Hygiene by Worker Honey Bees (Hymenoptera: Apidae)



By using excluders and standardizing the amount of drone comb in the brood nest has probably helped my situation. Currently, quite a few colonies have low mites as determined by sugar shake and brood samples. I am not taking very many drone samples as only a few scattered cells are available, not enough for a sample. This time last year, the drone samples were still being taken and high mite counts observed. At the same time most of the worker brood was ok. It was in August after drones were no longer produced in numbers, that I saw a shift to worker brood. For each drone the rate of reproduction is high compared to workers so having excessive drones in populations marginal in mite resistance is not a good idea. I suspect the real small cell/large cell debate should be worker vs drone comb. 

On the other hand, drone comb is good for honey and if managed well can be used for trapping mites.


----------



## GregB

lharder said:


> On the other hand, drone comb is good for honey and if managed well can be used for trapping mites.


If the drone brood is of any propagation value - one can simply transfer it into some sacrificial or treated colony (I got those). 
For the case of my VSH queen, this is a real consideration.

But like I said - so far the mother VSH colony are not producing any drones and this is fine by me too.
Thinking I might send the VSH mother through yet another shake out this season - I really like how they bounced back.
The winter preparation by the VSH colony is not a big concern (I got plenty of other bees to provide for them).


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> I almost wish I could spend the summer vacation around bees, playing about....


Wouldn't that be nice... glad to read that you are making steady increase in your colony count.


----------



## GregB

This is the lineup for the 2021/2022 winter.
Every single colony below went through a *brood-less period* and was treated *once *with OAD (Oxalic Acid Dribble) during the brood-less period.
I used the "weak" OA prescription as defined by Randy Oliver.
I have a VSH section (7 units = a survivor mother + 6 daughters) and I also have a control section (5 units = random captured swarms with queens of apparent commercial lineages).
ALL propagation done this summer was only via brood-less manipulations - natural swarms/shook swarms/brood-less, fly-back splits.
By October, I anticipate every unit to be strong enough to autonomously winter.
Feeding the weak units to stimulate as much brood as possible until then.
September is very favorable this year for pre-winter development - warm nights/hot days, rainy/humid, lots of natural forage.
--------------------------------------------------------

#1 - VSH survivor queen
Weak (after two artificial (aka shook) away-swarms - in June and later in July; generally poor queen).
Feeding to boost winter population.
OAD'ed in July.

#2 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
Weak (2-frame, queen-less June split (a backup mating nuc); generally poor queen; keeping as an experiment).
Feeding to boost winter population.
OAD'ed in June.

#3 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
Strong (started as a very strong, 8-frame, queen-less June split; generally good queen)
Stole bees away to boost other weaker starts.
OAD'ed in June.

#4 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
Weak (5-frame, queen-less July split; generally good queen).
Feeding to boost winter population.
OAD'ed in August.

#5 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
Strong (a July swarm portion separated away and dumped onto a QC; generally good queen).
Stole bees away to boost other weaker starts.
OAD'ed in July.

#6 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
Weak (artificial (aka shook) July swarm from stolen bees; generally OK queen).
Feeding to boost winter population.
OAD'ed in August.

#7 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
Weak (dump-combine of two queen-less June swarms onto the new queen; generally OK queen).
Feeding to boost winter population.
OAD'ed in August.

#8 - random swarm queen
Very strong (captured July swarm; generally excellent queen).
Stole bees away twice to boost weaker starts
OAD'ed in July.

#9 - daughter of a random swarm queen
Strong (captured June swarm; generally excellent queen).
Brood-less split made away in July with the original random swarm queen - donated to a friend.
OAD'ed in June.

#10 - random swarm queen
Strong (captured July swarm; generally excellent queen).
OAD'ed in July.

#11 - daughter of a random swarm queen
Strong (captured June swarm; generally excellent queen).
Made a brood-less split away with the original swarm queen (into #12)
OAD'ed in July.

#12 - daughter of a random swarm queen (I accidentally terminated the #11 queen).
Medium (artificial (aka shook) June swarm from #11; generally good queen).
Feeding to boost winter population.
This is a brood-less start into my CVH experiment.
OAD'ed in June.


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> This is the lineup for the 2021/2022 winter.
> Every single colony below went through a *brood-less period* and was treated *once *with OAD (Oxalic Acid Dribble) during the brood-less period.
> I used the "weak" OA prescription as defined by Randy Oliver.
> I have a VSH section (7 units = a survivor mother + 6 daughters) and I also have a control section (5 units = random captured swarms with queens of apparent commercial lineages).
> ALL propagation done this summer was only via brood-less manipulations - natural swarms/shook swarms/brood-less, fly-back splits.
> By October, I anticipate every unit to be strong enough to autonomously winter.
> Feeding the weak units to stimulate as much brood as possible until then.
> September is very favorable this year for pre-winter development - warm nights/hot days, rainy/humid, lots of natural forage.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> 
> #1 - VSH survivor queen
> Weak (after two broodless splits in June and July; generally poor queen).
> Feeding to boost winter population.
> OAD'ed in July.
> 
> #2 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
> Weak (2-frame June split; generally poor queen; keeping as an experiment).
> Feeding to boost winter population.
> OAD'ed in June.
> 
> #3 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
> Strong (started as a very strong June split; generally good queen)
> Stole bees away to boost other weaker starts.
> OAD'ed in June.
> 
> #4 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
> Weak (meduim-size July split; generally good queen).
> Feeding to boost winter population.
> OAD'ed in August.
> 
> #5 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
> Strong (re-queened July swarm; generally good queen).
> Stole bees away to boost other weaker starts.
> OAD'ed in July.
> 
> #6 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
> Weak (artificial (aka shook) July swarm; generally OK queen).
> Feeding to boost winter population.
> OAD'ed in August.
> 
> #7 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
> Weak (dump-combine of two queen-less June swarms onto the new queen; generally OK queen).
> Feeding to boost winter population.
> OAD'ed in August.
> 
> #8 - random swarm queen
> Very strong (captured July swarm; generally excellent queen).
> Stole bees away twice to boost weaker starts
> OAD'ed in July.
> 
> #9 - daughter of a random swarm queen
> Strong (captured June swarm; generally excellent queen).
> Brood-less split made away in July with the original random swarm queen - donated to a friend.
> OAD'ed in June.
> 
> #10 - random swarm queen
> Strong (captured July swarm; generally excellent queen).
> OAD'ed in July.
> 
> #11 - daughter of a random swarm queen
> Strong (captured June swarm; generally excellent queen).
> Made a brood-less split away with the original swarm queen (into #12)
> OAD'ed in July.
> 
> #12 - daughter of a random swarm queen (I accidentally terminated the #11 queen).
> Medium (artificial (aka shook) June swarm; generally good queen).
> Feeding to boost winter population.
> This is a brood-less start into my CVH experiment.
> OAD'ed in June.


Interested to see the spring results.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Interested to see the spring results.


Me too.
It is hard to be disciplined - but "one change at a time" it must be.
I have already done the brood-less propagation in the past - to not much positive effect if done alone.
Will see if a single OAD addition will do anything.


----------



## bjorn

Greg I always enjoy your experiments and thorough documentation of them. I'm having a difficult time walking the treatment free road myself. My success rate has been low to say the least. Thus far my variables have been the strain of bees. I've tried italian, carniolan, buckfast and "russian" bees. I cannot say any have faired better than the others, though italians seem the least successful in our climate. They make tons of honey. So, if a beek is in it from a production point, they might be the way to go. A $130 package produces many times that in honey sold. It's basically livestock at that point. I've swayed away from that model and am somewhere in the middle now. I sell honey so my bee habit is self funding. My variable this year is four of the layens style hives vs three traditional langs... all untreated. I'll give a breakdown in my layens, lazutin, lang string. Best of luck... I will anxiously await your progress reports.


----------



## bjorn

HaplozygousNut said:


> This means that the cross-section in the tree is usually so small that the winter cluster can completely seal it off at the sides. This prevents air circulation around the cluster. Above the cluster there is also no air ventilation, because the honeycombs hanging down from the top act as air flow stoppers. In addition, the honeycombs form individual air pockets, which further enhance the insulating effect because warm air is stored between them. The bees themselves therefore only have to insulate the surface downward."
> 
> "In a conventional magazine hive, on the other hand, the conditions are completely different from those in the cavity of the tree. When the bees heat up the winter cluster, warm air rises to the top and can spread out in a ll directions underneath the top cover."


This points back toward the layens style hive management. The author mentions sealed follower boards(can't remember his exact term) to create an insulated brood chamber. This is the first article I've seen applying that technique to "magazine" hives. I'm playing with 4 layens and 3 langs this year... I might just have to fabricate a few of these boards to fit the langs. It all makes sense in theory. I realize there are infinite variables that are out of our hands, but this will closer replicate a tree hollow... aka the bees natural preference.


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> Greg I always enjoy your experiments and thorough documentation of them.


Thanks.
Partially why I even stared this mess was to find some facts as applied to my situation (outside of the harvest part, of course).
Too many unsupported/undocumented anecdotes.
Too many inconsistent claims.
There is also too much hard-core science that is hard to comprehend for a regular folk.
Many a TF folk are notorious with hiding/omitting their actual facts and context (with few exceptions).
So what are we to to do?



bjorn said:


> I'm having a difficult time walking the treatment free road myself. My success rate has been low to say the least. ......... My variable this year is four of the layens style hives vs three traditional langs... all untreated. I'll give a breakdown in my layens, lazutin, lang string. Best of luck... I will anxiously await your progress reports.


So, bjorn, I am afraid your various hives would not matter much if at all.
Per your description and your location - you very much have the same issue as myself - commercial bee flooded Midwest setting.
This is just a bad setting up front for the TF (compared to certain locations in the Appalachia region or the South or few other pockets).

I certainly wish the TF "gurus" put this critical location pre-requisite on the front pages of their websites or the books or their YT channels - but they *never *do.
The location on the map is the #1 predictor IF you are going to fail in your TF attempts.

Here is a good quote just on the topic - said Mike B. from UK (a known TF guy):
*



A newbie in the wrong place.......

Click to expand...

*


> * What I'm saying is: if you are in that setting don't even bother.* Just accept that until you find a better location, or get a resistance-raising club going on with enough of your neighbours, you will have to treat. You could try fetching in resistant queens, but likely the strains of varroa around you will overwhelm them. So again, don't bother. Newbie.
> Mike UK




Source:








A shift in message? The case for IPM instead of bond as...


SiWolKe drone suppression for better honey yelds using foundation is one thing. Allowing/creating drone comb to use drone brood to trap and remove mites (in theory at the cost of honey production) is another Randy O has thread over on Bee L...




www.beesource.com


----------



## Gray Goose

bjorn said:


> Greg I always enjoy your experiments and thorough documentation of them. I'm having a difficult time walking the treatment free road myself. My success rate has been low to say the least. Thus far my variables have been the strain of bees. I've tried italian, carniolan, buckfast and "russian" bees. I cannot say any have faired better than the others, though italians seem the least successful in our climate. They make tons of honey. So, if a beek is in it from a production point, they might be the way to go. A $130 package produces many times that in honey sold. It's basically livestock at that point. I've swayed away from that model and am somewhere in the middle now. I sell honey so my bee habit is self funding. My variable this year is four of the layens style hives vs three traditional langs... all untreated. I'll give a breakdown in my layens, lazutin, lang string. Best of luck... I will anxiously await your progress reports.


I have talked to beeks in the north that shake the bees out in the snow and extract ALL the honey, rather than leave them with60 -90lbs for the winter. next year install a new package.
I can work if you do treat them like livestock.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> I have talked to beeks in the north that shake the bees out in the snow and extract ALL the honey, rather than leave them with60 -90lbs for the winter. next year install a new package.
> I can work if you do treat them like livestock.
> 
> GG


Yep.
It makes economic sense (especially with availability of reasonably priced spring packages).
In fact, once I know my TF attempts result in 80-90% chance of the bees dead anyway - might as well make it a quick end-of-season slaughter and keep the meat.


PS: so much for the bees "being in peril".... if anything, the commercial honey bees are not in peril.


----------



## bjorn

That is absolutely NOT what I wanted to hear, but I appreciate the honesty. Through my own observation I have suspected that my location is simply not conducive to completely TF. There really don't appear to be any feral colonies. My baited swarms are very likely from the same beek who gave me the three langs earlier this spring. He's a 1/4 mile away if that and has 25 hives. All commercial package bees, all treated (maybe a plus for me actually). I'm curious to hear more about your drip. I attended a class probably 10 years ago about it... before vaporizers were popular. I realize this is a TF forum, so perhaps this is not the place for it. For now, I guess I have to look at the economics and take some minor comfort in knowing the bees will pay for themselves several times over even if they perish. I hate to think that way so it's a conundrum between TF and ethics I guess.


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> That is absolutely NOT what I wanted to hear, but I appreciate the honesty. Through my own observation I have suspected that my location is simply not conducive to completely TF. There really don't appear to be any feral colonies. My baited swarms are very likely from the same beek who gave me the three langs earlier this spring. He's a 1/4 mile away if that and has 25 hives. All commercial package bees, all treated (maybe a plus for me actually). I'm curious to hear more about your drip. I attended a class probably 10 years ago about it... before vaporizers were popular. I realize this is a TF forum, so perhaps this is not the place for it. For now, I guess I have to look at the economics and take some minor comfort in knowing the bees will pay for themselves several times over even if they perish. I hate to think that way so it's a conundrum between TF and ethics I guess.


13% survival over the 5 years (including a total wipe-out) - that's what I have.
You will have similar numbers.

Sure, my honey and bee bread from the dead-outs is clean. A very good thing.
I catch free bees only and never purchased a single package/nuc.
But my issue with TF is that I am tired of rebuilding from very low numbers (even zero) every single season.
Because of this I can never plan anything ahead - this is tiresome.
Some sort of additional leverage is needed in the locations like ours - so I started looking at OA/LA.

As far as the TF goes - the entire TF paradigm needs correction - it is 100% dependent on the location context.
TF lives and dies with the location (and the location's properties).
The current idea of the TF does not have this formalized, and this undermines the entire calculus (and yet some artificial requirements are posited without reasonable exceptions for the TF prohibitive environments).

(Mathematically speaking the TF function is not defined from negative infinity to positive infinity, but rather on several limited domains only).


----------



## bjorn

Greg I would be curious to know more about your OA drip experience. I also respect that this is a TF forum. So, if you've posted about it elsewhere on the site, can you please point me in the right direction? The notion that any beekeeping in a box is truly TF could be debated at length. That is not my intent at all here. I'm still on the fence regarding TF but am always open to hear results from both sides.


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> Greg I would be curious to know more about your OA drip experience. I also respect that this is a TF forum. So, if you've posted about it elsewhere on the site, can you please point me in the right direction? The notion that any beekeeping in a box is truly TF could be debated at length. That is not my intent at all here. I'm still on the fence regarding TF but am always open to hear results from both sides.


I outlined my OAD plans earlier and this is what I am doing this season.

If it boils down to it, I will ask to move my thread out of TF.
Nothing in this life is set in stone.

Curiously many on the TF forum left and have not been heard from.
Why?
I did not go anywhere and still around.
I am all ears to know where are they now and what I can learn from them after years of them successfully and sustainably practicing TF (IF still true).

As I started this particular thread years ago now, I had significantly different expectations.
I was basically hoping for easy ~50% survival rate just from doing the continuous expansion every season to cover the losses (and as was preached by certain TF gurus).
5 years of the experiment went by - my expectation did no materialize.
So that is that - reporting like it is.

My point being is that the original TF theory has been demonstrably incomplete, misleading, or even outright mistaken in very many ways.
(Nothing new here - just look at the COVID development progressing all around us, just at much, much faster rate.
Theories come and go.
Facts, misinformation, and dead bodies are piling on).

I will concede you can only find out what is possible for you by practically trying.
However, just by knowing your location and the ongoing situation around you, one can pretty accurately predict what is and what is NOT possible.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Curiously many on the TF forum left and have not been heard from.
> Why?


I'll bite. There's a lot that could likely be said on this score, but just a few (in no particular order):

1. There have been a lot of people leave the forum TF or not. It appears the reasons are myriad, but may not necessarily relate to failure.

2. Some folks have had trouble and/or catastrophic failure and it takes a special person to both; keep going in the face of the struggles and; continue writing about it. I respect that you were willing to document your troubles.

3. I could see how some decide it is not worth the time and effort it takes to provide thoughtful input about their efforts with little incentive to do so.

4. (At least in some settings), There is a tendency for folks to be eager to excuse away the progress that appears to pop-up in certain settings. Two names immediately come to mind: Terry Combs and Tim Ives.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I'll bite. There's a lot that could likely be said on this score, but just a few (in no particular order):
> 
> 1. There have been a lot of people leave the forum TF or not. It appears the reasons are myriad, but may not necessarily relate to failure.
> 
> 2. Some folks have had trouble and/or catastrophic failure and it takes a special person to both; keep going in the face of the struggles and; continue writing about it. I respect that you were willing to document your troubles.
> 
> 3. I could see how some decide it is not worth the time and effort it takes to provide thoughtful input about their efforts with little incentive to do so.
> 
> 4. (At least in some settings), There is a tendency for folks to be eager to excuse away the progress that appears to pop-up in certain settings. Two names immediately come to mind: Terry Combs and Tim Ives.


I will agree with your points, Russ.

Now, for the #4 - this is very useful to everyone to be aware of such cases and find out the circumstances.
Important to geographically identify approximate locations and wider regions where the successes are reported.
This is so to generalize the areas where the "TF" is actually possible in a sustained fashion.
Being within such a region OR being outside of such a region makes a significant difference.

Also, an approximate location database of successful and sustainable TF cases would be of great benefit to everyone.
The exact location is not needed and exposing it even could be harmful to the resident TF beeks.
But generally we pretty well know the trends already - Appalachia and South.
The counter-trend examples are also showing - the Corn Belt is a good general example.
Making this into a county-level database would be great BUT that is non-trivial project to undertake.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> But generally we pretty well know the trends already - Appalachia and South.


I think I understand and appreciate your point about making sure that context is included in any observations. For what it is worth, I agree with you. 

My point in offering this example was simply to point out that these folks have no real upshot to taking the time to document their efforts other than any intrinsic desire to help others- beyond that it is strictly overhead.

As to location- Terry Combs is located in the bottom third of Illinois and Tim Ives is located near the top of Indiana. So while I would concede it appears that the folks finding success in TF tend to be in rural environments, it does not appear to be geographically constrained to south of the Mason-Dixon line.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> As to location- Terry Combs is located in the bottom third of Illinois and Tim Ives is located near the top of Indiana. So while I would concede it appears that the folks finding success in TF tend to be in rural environments, it does not appear to be geographically constrained to south of the Mason-Dixon line.


Perhaps the idea of the "Appalachia and South" can be stretched a bit and to a point.
Certainly, the Dakotas don't seem to belong - not many trees that you see.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Perhaps the idea of the "Appalachia and South" can be stretched a bit and to a point.


Sheer speculation on my part (and based partially on anecdotes), it seems to me that the general lines for TF success lie less along geography and more along gene flow- specifically bee movement and imports.

The anecdotes seem to suggest that where bee populations are afforded the opportunity to develop some modicum of local-adaptation, this serves as a more stable basis for progress to be made on the resistance front... but this is strictly my opinion based on what I've read/studied.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Sheer speculation on my part (and based partially on anecdotes), it seems to me that the general lines for TF success lie less along geography and more along gene flow- specifically bee movement and imports.
> 
> The anecdotes seem to suggest that where bee populations are afforded the opportunity to develop some modicum of local-adaptation, this serves as a more stable basis for progress to be made on the resistance front... but this is strictly my opinion based on what I've read/studied.


And now correlate that to the general landscape properties.
This (the opportunity to develop) is hardly possible in the tree-less Dakotas and similar geographical areas (excluding the Dakotas and the similar areas).
This is also hardly possible in the forested areas where no old-enough growth exist while the climate is harsh and unforgiving (excluding most of WI, AK, and similar areas).
This is also hardly possible where the human population is dense and the BYBKs on every city block (excluding most suburban/metro areas).
The highly intensive ag areas also have vast corn and soy fields - feral bee unfriendly space (excluding Nothern IL, lots of IA, and such)
And so on.... A process of deduction.

Not long ago we compared 1)relatively flat and frozen WI forests - near ideal setup for winter clean cutting (mostly young forests and tree farms now) to 2)the TN/KY forests - much less accessible while growing in more bee-friendly climates.

The TN/KY area is much more favorable for the feral bee population to be formed and developed without human involvement (hence my recent rant about the "North-American" bee).
The "North American" bee will not come out of Dakotas (not a chance), however, if looked closely, some qualifying populations may already exist in the TN/KY region as we speak.
And so the geography (both physical and social) and bee development trends very much have strong correlation.
So I believe certain geographical properties of the places are strong predictors of random bee development probabilities (and by extension more TF favorable or less TF favorable).


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> This is hardly possible in the tree-less Dakotas and similar geographical areas.
> This is also hardly possible even in the forested areas where no old-enough growth exist.
> This is also hardly possible where the human population is dense.


Just for the fun of it and for the sake of conversation (not to be critical- just doing my part to be a PITA as well), I'll take a quick stab at each of these premises:

1. Where there is a will, there is a way. The attached article from the most recent ABJ outlines the efforts of a man working to 'rehabilitate' AHB's in a remote location that requires his continual input of feed and water. This is obviously an extreme example, but serves to underscore that there is more than one way to skin the proverbial cat.

2. Bees live in cavities other than trees. As a kid growing up in NE New Mexico there was little in the way of trees and certainly none that qualified as 'old growth'. Despite that, we routinely hived swarms and had a two colonies that persisted in a knurly mulberry tree and in an abandoned farmstead respectively directly behind my house my whole childhood.

3. We've discussed the high-density, bee-wasteland dynamic before and I freely admit it would be difficult in my mind to have a sustained and successful TF experience in this environment. That said, one could go to a closed population model employing routine re-queening and the prophylactic use of anti-drift measures and might be able to get away with something akin to TF- I say maybe because I've never tried it nor read about anyone who has so this is strictly a hypothesis that needs tested.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Just for the fun of it and for the sake of conversation (not to be critical- just doing my part to be a PITA as well), I'll take a quick stab at each of these premises:
> 
> 1. Where there is a will, there is a way.
> 
> 2. Bees live in cavities other than trees.
> 
> 3. We've discussed the high-density, bee-wasteland dynamic


LOL
Sure.

1. I have no will to go that far...
Not my goal to rehabilitate or select anything.
I am just a lowly backyard bee-catcher who needs few gallons of good quality honey on the cheap with no spare time and no spare funds to sink into some project.

In fact, I am still after one of the original TF premises - the "lazy beekeeping".
I want that - the promised "lazy beekeeping" to work.
And it does not for me; not in my setting - the only answer I got back from Solomon P. - "You must be doing something wrong". 

2. Surely, there are bee trees there and here, everywhere.
I myself plugged such a tree few years ago for some people.
There were bees in there annually as they reported - true as there were combs in a cavity.
The bees never survived however per-annually even though they may appear so to the owners.
Simple re-occupation by escaped bees took place.
All too common - nothing about a persistent and self-sustaining feral population (especially around people who are eager to plug "that tree" or just take it down altogether).

3. And again, this is becoming too involved.

And so what is a "lazy beekeeper" wanna-be to do?
That was one of the original TF promises - the "let them be" part (regardless of the circumstances - let them be and they will deliver).

If anything we (I) needed to adjust to the "laziest possible beekeeping" - which already too much work as it is (ask my disgruntled wife).
Been doing twice-weekly rounds delivering sugar syrup to my 2021 start-ups - so much for just "set it and forget it" life.
I long since forgot about those lazy dreams.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> ... the promised "lazy beekeeping"...


I expect we can both agree that no matter the system or management approach, that 'lazy' and 'beekeeping' are mutually exclusive .

Keep fighting the good fight- I'll look forward to your continued updates.


----------



## crofter

_"Been doing twice-weekly rounds delivering sugar syrup to my 2021 start-ups - so much for just "set it and forget it" life.
I long since forgot about those lazy dreams"._

I am ashamed to admit how much sugar i have poured into new colonies this year and even some of the ones I had anticipated getting honey from._
_


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I expect we can both agree that no matter the system or management approach, that 'lazy' and 'beekeeping' are mutually exclusive .
> 
> Keep fighting the good fight- I'll look forward to your continued updates.


Well, people keep referring to this well respected page for their answers:





Lazy Beekeeping, Michael Bush


Lazy Beekeeping, Michael Bush. The old saying 'work smarter not harder' has some truth to it. If you can go with the flow of things and find easier ways to do things, then you should do it the easy way. This isn't just 'laziness' I suppose, it's also a desire to accomplish more. Here are...




www.bushfarms.com





Actually, I still see the "set it and forget it" as a feasible and practical way to manage.
Unfortunately, this will be totally outside of the current TF context - per my latest understanding of things.
Rather, it will be within "location appropriate beekeeping" context.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Rather, it will be within "location appropriate beekeeping" context.


That's a philosophy I can certainly get behind.


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## bjorn

So in my case, I'm toying with a similar OA drip this fall for maybe half of my hives. They are obviously not feral... 1 caught swarm, 3 gifted splits, 2 packages and 1 overwintered colony. The packages and OW colony have been requeened and therefore had a brood break. The caught swarm would have seen a bit of a brood break as well. Not sure if it's sufficient reason, but I'd be inclined to try them TF. So that would mean the gifted splits get a OAD. Thoughts, comments, angry rants appreciated.


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> So in my case, I'm toying with a similar OA drip this fall for maybe half of my hives. They are obviously not feral... 1 caught swarm, 3 gifted splits, 2 packages and 1 overwintered colony. The packages and OW colony have been requeened and therefore had a brood break. The caught swarm would have seen a bit of a brood break as well. Not sure if it's sufficient reason, but I'd be inclined to try them TF. So that would mean the gifted splits get a OAD. Thoughts, comments, angry rants appreciated.


Per my current program setup this is too late and too much repeated work now as this is a catch up project at this point (though this is what people do routinely and you do what you have to do).

You probably should count the mites now and determine the urgency of your treatment and if you even want to do it in some cases.
Last year I did a near complete count just about now, and some of the units were beyond of saving (talking 25-50 mites/300).
These are not worth saving at this point, but totally *must *prevent their potential robbing however you do it.

Every single colony I have, had been administered a single OAD during the brood-less periods they all went through.
This took place through June to early August - any time I had the opportunity to do it by a random chance or artificially created.

I mean to do at least few selective counts (targeting the strongest colonies first) so to know the current status and decide what next if anything.
For example, it is good to know the mite counts beforehand if I decide to combine some units (low counts would be worthwhile combining).

Hope is that they are in good shape as it is, IF my program works.
For sure I have no visible DWV cases (usually pretty obvious by this point).


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## AR1

bjorn said:


> So in my case, I'm toying with a similar OA drip this fall for maybe half of my hives. They are obviously not feral... 1 caught swarm, 3 gifted splits, 2 packages and 1 overwintered colony. The packages and OW colony have been requeened and therefore had a brood break. The caught swarm would have seen a bit of a brood break as well. Not sure if it's sufficient reason, but I'd be inclined to try them TF. So that would mean the gifted splits get a OAD. Thoughts, comments, angry rants appreciated.


I have come to the opinion that brood breaks are mostly worthless, at least by themselves. The varroa have had uncounted generations to adapt to the bees' life cycles, and brood breaks are part of that. Unless you are doing something else, or the bees are already pretty tolerant of mites, breaks will only slightly delay the issue. 

One year I got a swarm in a trap. They grew tremendously and I was able to split them that summer. Both the original hive and the split died that fall, severely infected with wrinkled wings and varroa. That strain of bees was perfectly non-resistant, and neither the swarm brood break nor the second split brood break saved them even for a few months.


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## AR1

GregV said:


> LOL
> 
> And so what is a "lazy beekeeper" wanna-be to do?
> That was one of the original TF promises - the "let them be" part (regardless of the circumstances - let them be and they will deliver).
> 
> If anything we (I) needed to adjust to the "laziest possible beekeeping" - which already too much work as it is (ask my disgruntled wife).
> Been doing twice-weekly rounds delivering sugar syrup to my 2021 start-ups - so much for just "set it and forget it" life.
> I long since forgot about those lazy dreams.


As a lazy beekeeper, this hits on me. My effort this year is trying OA shop towels, perhaps the laziest treatment plan available. I put them in half my hives last year and saw no signs that varroa was an issue, but still had significant losses in the fall, which I do not attribute to varroa, but without much confidence in that. 

Only 3 hives now, and all three have OA towels. Again, no signs of heavy varroa presence, but as a lazy beekeeper I rarely do alcohol washes. In the fall I place sugar blocks on top the hives. Only one year, a particularly poor year for honey, have I fed otherwise.


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## GregB

AR1 said:


> As a lazy beekeeper, this hits on me. My effort this year is trying OA shop towels, perhaps the laziest treatment plan available.


AR, I think actually the combination of one time brood-break+OAD/LAD+OAM (OA Media) is a promising way for the "lazy beekeeping"/"set it and forget it" way.
Once per a season.


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## crofter

The OA/Glycerine towels or sponges appear to keep mite levels near zero for me until mid August. Perhaps if freshened up then they would hold better against the mite jump as autumn sets in. That will depend a lot I guess on the mites on your neighbors bees and whether your own bees are natural robbers or not. Big, big, variables here. I think if you dont keep close counnt of the mites you better treat for the worst case scenario or you will have surprises.


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## GregB

crofter said:


> The OA/Glycerine towels or sponges appear to keep mite levels near zero for me until mid August.


Though you don't administer the brood-less OAD/OAV, do you?
I suspect not.


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## bjorn

crofter said:


> The OA/Glycerine towels or sponges appear to keep mite levels near zero for me until mid August. Perhaps if freshened up then they would hold better against the mite jump as autumn sets in. That will depend a lot I guess on the mites on your neighbors bees and whether your own bees are natural robbers or not. Big, big, variables here. I think if you dont keep close counnt of the mites you better treat for the worst case scenario or you will have surprises.


I've found quite a bit of info about using the towels early and even thru the summer but not for fall treatment. I assume this is due to the "slow releases" nature of the media. Correct?


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> I've found quite a bit of info about using the towels early and even thru the summer but not for fall treatment. I assume this is due to the "slow releases" nature of the media. Correct?


I think so.
The OAM (e.g. towels) is about slow and consistent pressure for - good for longer term maintenance; not great for a quick radical measure.
So if your numbers are already high AND you still have brood, the OAM is too little and too late.


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## crofter

No I dont deliberately take advantage of a brood break.

The slow release nature of the contact towels probably is why they dont handle any influx..


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## GregB

crofter said:


> No I dont deliberately take advantage of a brood break.
> 
> The slow release nature of the contact towels probably is why they dont handle any influx..


OK, as I suspected.
So I think a combination of a brood break with OAD/OAV/LAD should have a very good one-time cleanup (90%-ish).
After that an optional OAM should ensure a good maintenance/after-clean for some good weeks. 
At which point I am personally inclined to take my chances.


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## GregB

This is mostly for Bjorn.
--------------------------------------------
I went back and pulled up my mite counts from September 2020.
These are sugar shakes and, thus, will be somewhat under-counting - but good enough to identify obvious problems, IMO.
Here they are - edited for brevity and some comments added (just marked the VSH and suspected Russians to mark the potentially higher resistance).
As my local IPM colleague says from his experience - anything above 3% is a near guarantied dead-out.
He was right on the spot
----------------------------------------------

Yard #1 (backyard):
#1 - 73 mites (24-25%) - dead
#2 - 16 (5-6%) - dead (F1 of VSH)
#3 - 13 (4-5%) - dead (F1 of VSH)

Yard #2 (0.5 miles away from the backyard):
#4 - 37 mites (~12%) - dead
#5 - 9 mites (~3%) - alive (the VSH survivor)
#6 - 13 mites (4-5%) - dead (F1 of VSH)

Yard #3 (5 miles South-West from the backyard):
#7 - 13 (4-5%) - dead
#8 - 51 (~17%) - dead

Yard #4 (10 miles South from the backyard):
#9 - 17 (5-6%) - dead

Yard #5 (5 miles South-East from the backyard):
#10 - 67 (22-23%) - dead
#11 - 15 (~5%) - dead (F1 of suspect Russian)
#12 - not counted - dead (suspect Russian)

Yard #6 (15 miles South-East from the backyard):
#13 - 26 (8-9%) - dead

Yard #7 (10 miles South from the backyard):
#14 - not counted - dead
#15 - not counted - dead


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## AR1

crofter said:


> The OA/Glycerine towels or sponges appear to keep mite levels near zero for me until mid August. Perhaps if freshened up then they would hold better against the mite jump as autumn sets in. That will depend a lot I guess on the mites on your neighbors bees and whether your own bees are natural robbers or not. Big, big, variables here. I think if you dont keep close counnt of the mites you better treat for the worst case scenario or you will have surprises.


Left in for very long they get covered with propolis, so I expect the value to decline even if there appears to be plenty of shop towel remaining.


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## crofter

Yes and the fact that the outside gets rather dry and perhaps not spreading the same amount active ingredients to the bees. There is a difference hive to hive in how quickly and thoroughly they go at chewing up and hauling out the debris. I have not observed rhyme or reason for that. If it holds the _status quo _for the summer it serves a purpose. Not really out there long enough to get a good consensus of the variables.


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## Gray Goose

crofter said:


> Yes and the fact that the outside gets rather dry and perhaps not spreading the same amount active ingredients to the bees. There is a difference hive to hive in how quickly and thoroughly they go at chewing up and hauling out the debris. I have not observed rhyme or reason for that. If it holds the _status quo _for the summer it serves a purpose. Not really out there long enough to get a good consensus of the variables.


I can get it removed a bit faster if I tear it in 1/2 or thirds, leave a 1/2 inch between parts.
In hives that propolize it fast I do the tear it then is on the grass in front of the hive in higher ratio.

GG


----------



## crofter

I pulled the occasional patch of capped drone comb and saw zero for mites all summer so I am comfortable that it is doing the job for me. Sticky board on one colony and despite treating every 3 to 5 days OAV last nights mite drop was north of 50 mites. Same pattern as last year so will continue on same schedule till it does go down.

_"The beatings will continue till morale improves"_


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## AR1

Some hives chew up and drag o


crofter said:


> Yes and the fact that the outside gets rather dry and perhaps not spreading the same amount active ingredients to the bees. There is a difference hive to hive in how quickly and thoroughly they go at chewing up and hauling out the debris. I have not observed rhyme or reason for that. If it holds the _status quo _for the summer it serves a purpose. Not really out there long enough to get a good consensus of the variables.


Some hives chew up and drag out the shop towels, most do not. I tear it into strips and lay it across the frames. Maybe if I left it in one big piece they would chew it more.


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## GregB

GregV said:


> #8 - random swarm queen
> Very strong (captured July swarm; generally excellent queen).
> Stole bees away twice to boost weaker starts
> OAD'ed in July.


I don't know if and when I will get to do any mite counts..
Just busy with my other life...

However, I was briefly in the #8 yesterday.
The thing is still booming with still 8-10 frames of brood going - them crazy Italians again - almost certain now I need to feed these fools.

I had similar bees before - those non-stop brooding zombies a couple of seasons ago.
But at least now I know I can continue stealing more bees from here so to keep boosting my other weaker start-ups - a good usage for the zombie-bees.

I was able to fork through a number of drone brood cells - not a single mite that I found.
A good sign (I want to hope that the adjusted program works).


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## GregB

GregV said:


> #8 - random swarm queen
> Very strong (captured July swarm; generally excellent queen).
> Stole bees away twice to boost weaker starts
> OAD'ed in July.


This would be one of my controls.
If any colony to die to the mites - this one would be a prime example.

Yesterday (Oct 6) finally did a sugar shake on these.
7/300.
So, the actual still should be somewhere in 3% region.
(granted there is a built-in error of the sugar shaking - should under-count some, so giving it a couple more mites to 9/300)

Not bad at all.
In 2020 the only unit running ~3% at this time was the VSH unit (the only survivor of 2020/2021 winter).

The clean restart seems to be working.
Is it enough? To be seen.

PS: this is how the #8 looks like - 16 frame long hive; build form insulated plywood sandwiches (I made a very poor choice of material for the external layer).
Still running about 5-6 frames of brood.
They really loaded well on the 2021 Goldenrod flow - better than expected - this hive is full of honey, wall to wall as of the moment (the frames are 75-100% full)..
I should be able to steal some of that honey from #8 - my cut.


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## GregB

GregV said:


> #5 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
> Strong (a July swarm portion separated away and dumped onto a QC; generally good queen).
> Stole bees away to boost other weaker starts.
> OAD'ed in July.


Inspected yesterday to estimate the winter stores - sufficient.
6 frames at about 2/3 full each - just about right.
No feeding but they have been working on cleaning up few 2020 old honey frames (a small but nice bonus for them).
They can still take some of that old honey as needed.

Still brooding on 5 frames; but this should be the last of it.

Did not count mites as it was inconvenient (too late in the day).
Probably will go uncounted, especially since the #8 standing right next to them has satisfactory #.

This is about the best wintering setup that I can offer - a hive inside the wintering box.


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## Tim Ives

Okay, I'll bite. Highly agree with S.P "must be doing something wrong". Its as simple as put bees in box, give plenty of room, know the flows, remove surplus Honey after flows and leave plenty of Honey for winter. Anything more then that you're over complicating everything! 
Yes, still treatment free since 2001, still haven't fed a colony since 2006.


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## GregB

Tim Ives said:


> Okay, I'll bite. Highly agree with S.P "must be doing something wrong". Its as simple as put bees in box, give plenty of room, know the flows, remove surplus Honey after flows and leave plenty of Honey for winter. Anything more then that you're over complicating everything!
> Yes, still treatment free since 2001, still haven't fed a colony since 2006.


If I could move next you I am sure I could be a TF hands down.

However, I really am unconvinced you can be TF at my place thou.
Joe Besetti is in my area and still has no TF queens for sale after, say, 15 years of trying. 

Why rehash the obvious?
I mean LAB (Location Appropriate Beekeeping) being the obvious thing.


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## Tim Ives

Perplexes me why everyone isn't Treatment free by now. Bizzare


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## GregB

Tim Ives said:


> Perplexes me why everyone isn't Treatment free by now. Bizzare


And this statement is why many a folk call the TF folk "Taliban" and such.
You are ignoring the well known cliche - "all beekeeping is local".

Notice - I don't doubt you can do it in your particular village.
Just as well - why don't you accept that other honest folks are unable to do the same in good faith.


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## Tim Ives

Basically you're telling me that you could bring bees to my area and obtain my success, but I cant bring my bees to your area and maintain my success just because you are unable to accomplish too do so. Sorry dont work that way! I would maintain my success and you would not obtain mine (.)
Not really sure what this ' TF Taliban' thing is, other than some kind of abrasive gaslighting from folk unable to obtain being TF. Comical really, since I've been treatment free before any mainstream internet.
Meh...whatever. I'll check back again in 5 years. Fun time going thru threads where my name comes up.
Best of your luck to you.


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## GregB

Tim Ives said:


> Basically you're telling me that you could bring bees to my area and obtain my success, but I cant bring my bees to your area and maintain my success just because you are unable to accomplish too do so. Sorry dont work that way! I would maintain my success and you would not obtain mine (.)
> Not really sure what this ' TF Taliban' thing is, other than some kind of abrasive gaslighting from folk unable to obtain being TF. Comical really, since I've been treatment free before any mainstream internet.
> Meh...whatever. I'll check back again in 5 years. Fun time going thru threads where my name comes up.
> Best of your luck to you.


Best of luck.

I am sorry to say this but the tone of the exchange here is:
- Why are you fools still treating?
With all too common response:
- One must treat, treat, treat you stupid.
And so we go again - unproductive and childish running about without figuring out the real situations and working solutions.
Since the current politics are very similar, I will write this off to general human nature.

One needs to evaluate the cards at hand and only then make the best possible move for the circumstances.
Playing cards is close enough analogy of what to do.


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## Tim Ives

And so we go again - unproductive and childish running about without figuring out the real situations and working solutions. Bingo! 
Not the one buying bees, treating bees or feeding bees since 2006.


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## GregB

Tim Ives said:


> And so we go again - unproductive and childish running about without figuring out the real situations and working solutions. Bingo!
> Not the one buying bees, treating bees or feeding bees since 2006.


You have your bragging rights.

However, your experience is not universally portable - that much is clear to reasonable people.

I spent 5 years trying to emulate the hands-off TF and have been honestly and publicly reporting the *numeric results *- not good and not sustainable *at my location and my mode of beekeeping. *It cost me a lot of my time (NOT money, God forbid).

So what is exactly your point, Tim?
Am I a fool?
Do you suggest I keep trying for 5-10 more years?
Something useful you can maybe share?
If yes - make sure your advice is applicable to high density/small scale suburban beekeeping (where the area is annually flooded by the imported packages).
Otherwise it is pointless.

Do you just want to brag?
OK; that I can understand.


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## Tim Ives

GregV said:


> If yes - make sure your advice is applicable to high density/small scale suburban beekeeping (where the area is annually flooded by the imported packages).
> Otherwise it is pointless.


That's my area exactly. 500 to 600 packages annually but dropping. Lmao yeah, I'm a a$$ and refuse to sell to high percentage of people around here. Eventually they cant afford to sustain and give up. 



GregV said:


> However, your experience is not universally portable - that much is clear to reasonable people


Really?? Says who??? You??? reading thru some of JW Carlson posts looks like he paid attention. So no not reasonable clear, apparently just to some whom are warped in their beliefs because of their failures. 
Bragging rights? No... walking the walk!


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## William Bagwell

Tim Ives said:


> That's my area exactly. 500 to 600 packages annually but dropping. Lmao yeah, I'm a a$$ and refuse to sell to high percentage of people around here. Eventually they cant afford to sustain and give up.


I'll bite, what is your criteria for determining the lucky few? Not that I'm going to drive to Indiana...

See you have bumped a moohisive thread down below. Plan to start at the beginning this weekend.


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## GregB

Moving along.
Time to enjoy some real Goldenrod honey.


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## GregB

GregV said:


> #1 - VSH survivor queen
> Weak (after two artificial (aka shook) away-swarms - in June and later in July; generally poor queen).
> Feeding to boost winter population.
> OAD'ed in July.


Went around removing feeding implements where I fed.
Enough. Nights are getting cold.
All bees are still brooding so I mean to start removing the insulation to cool them off some.
Did not really have time to do mite counts and I may not.

#1 looks good and heavy; will winter on 5 frames.
This VSH mother still brooding rather like a young queen - OK fine. 
Thumbs up.
I wish I had a better spare hive over this peeling plywood box, but dummy boards inside and XPS slabs outside should be fine.


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## GregB

> #2 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
> Weak (2-frame, queen-less June split (a backup mating nuc); generally poor queen; keeping as an experiment).
> Feeding to boost winter population.
> OAD'ed in June.


Not pleased with this queen.
They'll be lucky to winter on 5 frames; more like 4 frames.
Still too light.
Uncapped a couple of frames for them to take in.
Still unsure if I will combine into this hive or not - on the fence.
The VSH trait preservation is the only value here I hope for (otherwise worthless).


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## GregB

> #3 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
> Strong (started as a very strong, 8-frame, queen-less June split; generally good queen)
> Stole bees away to boost other weaker starts.
> OAD'ed in June.


Well, I am pleased here.
A very strong unit; fully self-stocked; already stole honey frames to give the weaker units.
But this queen produces very short-tempered bees.
I hardly look inside, only poke around the edges before they start boiling out on me.
Last time I really looked inside was in July sometimes (just to ensure the young queen was working - never found her; never marked her; must be running away from me).
Should winter on 10 frames - good enough.


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## GregB

> #4 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
> Weak (5-frame, queen-less July split; generally good queen).
> Feeding to boost winter population.
> OAD'ed in August.


Rather pleased.
Turned out a good queen - very workable and productive.
She is still pumping brood and needs to slow down soon here.
Should winter on 5-6 frames solid.
Somewhat light still; stole a heavy, uncapped frame from #3 and placed here.
Optimistic about this unit.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> #6 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
> Weak (artificial (aka shook) July swarm from stolen bees; generally OK queen).
> Feeding to boost winter population.
> OAD'ed in August.
> 
> #7 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
> Weak (dump-combine of two queen-less June swarms onto the new queen; generally OK queen).
> Feeding to boost winter population.
> OAD'ed in August.


In the end both #6 and #7 queens turned somewhat mediocre.
At this rate both units were marginal in the light of approaching winter.
I dumped the #6 into the #7 hive and called it done - taking the loss early on.
Up to the bees to select their favorite queen.
Neither of these are a good queen IMO - but again looking back at the strong VSH trait, it may look just like it - a mediocre queen.
At least now I have a strong enough cluster on 7-8 frames going in; not much to loose.
Spring will tell.

So I think I call the final pre-winter count to be eleven (11) units.
I was very tempted to go around and do one more round of OAD - after the brooding is done.
Or maybe LAD.
Well, did not - as anywhere I looked, the bees were still brooding until very lately.
For a single dribble to be effective, there must be no brood - else is just that time consuming treat-treat-treat approach with marginal effectiveness of a single doze.

Oh well, I should stick to the my 2021 criteria and just ride it out - a brood-less restart combined with a single doze OAD.
Ultimately, I am still looking for a low cost/low maintenance approach which will produce tolerable and predictable survival rate of about 50%.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> So I think I call the final pre-winter count to be eleven (11) units.


GregV:

Did colonies 2 - 6/7 exhibit fairly similar performance in the VSH department? If I have properly kept-up, colonies 2 thru 6/7 are daughters of your overwintered survivor-stock VSH queen?

Now that you have hopefully removed initial infestation from the equation, did you see a marked difference in VSH activity in colonies 1 - 7 versus the random stock you hived (i.e. 8 - 12)?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> GregV:
> 
> Did colonies 2 - 6/7 exhibit fairly similar performance in the VSH department? If I have properly kept-up, colonies 2 thru 6/7 are daughters of your overwintered survivor-stock VSH queen?
> 
> Now that you have hopefully removed initial infestation from the equation, did you see a marked difference in VSH activity in colonies 1 - 7 versus the random stock you hived (i.e. 8 - 12)?


Hey Russ,

1) both #6 and #7 are of the VSH line;
I did not do the mite counts this fall to have the numbers, but there is still this clear shot-gun pattern going on - unclear if this is still the "inbreeding" factor, the mites reaction (VSH), or the poor mating

2)so, no mite counts to really judge the status - gonna be just the binary "Bond" again this year to judge the VSH activity - based on the equal baseline setup for all;
I can certainly state that the VSH line consistently displays the shot-gun pattern in various degrees - granted I should have them pretty clean, it could be about the "inbreeding" factor;
To compare, the random off-commercial queens are clearly superior in the brood pattern department to the VSH queens.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> To compare, the random off-commercial queens are clearly superior in the brood pattern department to the VSH queens.


Thanks for the feedback, GregV.

Assuming that the daughters of your survivor queen were open-mated, I would assume that a shotgun pattern due to inbreeding might be less likely, particularly if you are seeing it across the board?

Also, I am curious- is it generally characterized by a broodnest that has numerous open cells or is it cells that have been cleaned out and then re-laid?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Thanks for the feedback, GregV.
> 
> Assuming that the daughters of your survivor queen were open-mated, I would assume that a shotgun pattern due to inbreeding might be less likely, particularly if you are seeing it across the board?
> 
> Also, I am curious- is it generally characterized by a broodnest that has numerous open cells or is it cells that have been cleaned out and then re-laid?


1)Yes - speaking of the F1 daughters of the original VSH mother - I would think the shotgun should be less.
However, this is not what I observe.
The shotgun is still there. More or less, but all of them do the shotgun.

2)Now the nature of the shotgun.
I appear that some of them immediately produce the shotgun - this is how they appear to be laying and, thus, I call them mediocre. #6 and #7 seemed to be of this grade. #2 is also of that grade I feel.

However, the Mother VSH and the other daughters (#3, #4, #5) seem to be laying a good pattern (I even have pictures posted) - but upon the later checks the solid brood pattern has been "thinned out". 
Why it has been thinned I don't know - either the mites or the diploid drones.

In both cases 1 and 2, the queens subsequently relay the empty cells.
Pretty soon it becomes untraceable mess.

3)In both cases 1 and 2 I am able to tell the very original laying pattern very reliably.
How?
Because I start them totally brood-less and the very original laying pattern is obvious if one to check it timely so to catch the first capping batch.


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## Litsinger

GregV said:


> In both cases 1 and 2, the queens subsequently relay the empty cells.
> Pretty soon it becomes untraceable mess


Thanks for the detailed reply, GregV. It was helpful. Based on what you describe, it sounds fairly consistent with VSH, excepting the part of an inconsistent laying pattern right out of the gate. Just speculating, but makes me wonder if you have a couple of different factors at work in the colonies that don't begin with a solid start.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Russ


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Oh well, I should stick to the my 2021 criteria and just ride it out - a brood-less restart combined with a single doze OAD.
> Ultimately, I am still looking for a low cost/low maintenance approach which will produce tolerable and predictable survival rate of about 50%.


Well..........
Being a flip-flopper, I am changing a tune some. 

Discovered two units already show obvious brood damage and are most likely to be lost.
So this weekend I was going to do the rounds assessing the status anyway.
While at it I quickly prepped ~18% of food grade lactic acid and took a spraying bottle along.

I had this product purchased already thinking ahead; and so just went with it.


Amazon.com



In the end every one of my eleven units got a dose of LAD (Lactic Acid Dribble).
Brood is absent or nearly absent everywhere and so this seems a good fit.

Pretty much I copied this approach:
*EXPERIENCE WITH THE USE OF LACTIC ACID AGAINST VARROASIS*


V2



So this is still a very much an organic, food-grade treatment attempt.
A dose of OAD and a dose of LAD - both applied over the brood-less colonies - this will be the end of warm season 2021.


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## GregB

Update as of 11/06/2021-11/07/2021 weekend
---------------------------------------
#1 - VSH survivor queen
Apparently healthy cluster on 5 large frames; good stores. 
LAD

#2 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
Apparently healthy cluster on 6 large frames; light stores.
LAD

#3 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
Apparently healthy cluster on 9 large frames; very good stores.
LAD

#4 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
Apparently healthy cluster on 6 large frames; light stores.
LAD

#5 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
Questionable cluster on 6 large frames; light stores.
Obvious signs of brood damage (dead bees in the cells that could not properly hatch)
LAD

#6 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
Terminated - combined into #7 and assuming the #7 queen to persist (uknown but both queens were very similar)

#7 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
Apparently healthy cluster on 7 large frames; OK stores.
LAD

#8 - random swarm queen
Apparently healthy cluster on 9 large frames; good stores.
Mite count was 2-3%; not obvious damage to the last brood
LAD

#9 - daughter of a random swarm queen
Apparently healthy cluster on 10 large frames; very good stores.
LAD

#10 - random swarm queen
Apparently healthy cluster on 8 large frames; very good stores.
LAD

#11 - daughter of a random swarm queen
Questionable cluster on 7 large frames; very good stores.
Obvious signs of brood damage (dead bees in the cells that could not properly hatch)
LAD

#12 - daughter of a random swarm queen (I accidentally terminated the #11 queen).
Apparently healthy cluster - compatible to 7 large frames; very good stores.
This is my CVH experiment
LAD (I might have done it too heavily on these bees - because had to dribble by a box, not by a frame). 
Fingers crossed I have not overdone it - just another experiment

-------------------------------
#13 - mother of #9 - the hive of my "student" looks very healthy in 6x6 deep Lang setup - it is packed full of bees and stores
I thought to possibly also give it a doze of LAD.
Well, working through that setup alone in late afternoon was too much for me.
It is too heavy for me to work by a box; and working by a frame was just too much at the moment - very awkward (single tier Layen's style is just easier to work).
Hopefully, a clean restart and a double-swarm break for these bees will do.


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> ---------------------------------------
> #1 - VSH survivor queen
> 
> #2 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
> 
> #3 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
> 
> #4 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
> 
> #5 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
> 
> #6 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
> 
> #7 - daughter of VSH survivor queen
> 
> #8 - random swarm queen
> 
> #9 - daughter of a random swarm queen
> 
> #10 - random swarm queen
> 
> #11 - daughter of a random swarm queen
> 
> #12 - daughter of a random swarm queen (I accidentally terminated the #11 queen).
> -------------------------------
> #13 - mother of #9 - the hive of my "student" looks very healthy in 6x6 deep Lang setup - it is packed full of bees and stores


Went around on Nov 20/21 weekend and finally applied the insulation (mostly blankets on the top).
Did some wind blocking there and here.
Everywhere I have standard top insulation this winter - a computer zip-lock back insulated above with blankets or XPS blocks (making sure there is enough venting for the excessive moisture).
No losses so far - still 11 colonies + one of my "student".
Lactic dribble did not do any apparent damage to the bees - just as expected.
This was also done just as a part of pre-winter inspection - verifying/fixing the winter stores and dribbling all at once.
All look healthy, superficially talking.
Harvested few frames of the 2021 crop.


----------



## gww

Good luck this winter.
gww


----------



## GregB

My hodge-podge, dirt cheap, trash-made operation going into the winter 2021/2022.


----------



## crofter

I like your hive stands. I


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> I like your hive stands. I


Tires are all over to be had for free.
Community service too (however annoying it is - picking the tires up).
Those young male on-road car-racers are especially bad - tossing their bold, worn tires by the road and in public areas. 
I have too many.

Though I highly rate tires for the hive stands - non-destructible, easily portable, very tough under load, and clearly are free.
Investing too much time and resource into the stands - not my cup of tea.
I built exactly one (pictured) - no more of that time waste.


----------



## A Novice

Tim Ives said:


> Perplexes me why everyone isn't Treatment free by now. Bizzare


If you are surrounded by commercial beeks who run heavily treated italians and carnis, your queens will mate with drones that are highly susceptible, and your hives will be highly susceptible to varroa. This is especially true if you are in an area where the climate and nectar flows make survival for "wild" colonies diffcult.

Even if you trap swarms that are "wild", they won't survive in standard langstroth hives, as the brood chambers are too large. However, if you hppen to be in an area with an abundance of "wild" bees, and not too close to any commercial operations, and in a fairly mild climate, treatment free appears to be easy.


----------



## A Novice

bjorn said:


> This points back toward the layens style hive management. The author mentions sealed follower boards(can't remember his exact term) to create an insulated brood chamber. This is the first article I've seen applying that technique to "magazine" hives. I'm playing with 4 layens and 3 langs this year... I might just have to fabricate a few of these boards to fit the langs. It all makes sense in theory. I realize there are infinite variables that are out of our hands, but this will closer replicate a tree hollow... aka the bees natural preference.


I wonder how good the "natural" environment really is.
We often make the assumption that it is better, but for most animals, conditions in captivity are better.
Cats living in the wild eating their natural food and sleeping in their natural environment live about 3 years, while cats living in houses and eating "cat food" live about 10.
Similarly, deer enjoying their natural state average a life span of 4.5 years, while deer in captivity live about 10 years.

There is some evidence that a well insulated hive is superior to an uninsulated hive. You can look at the primalbee hive as one example. Google "primalbee" or look at US patent Application *20210161107. *Their claims all revolve around a frame size equal to about two deeps, (claim 40) so don't worry about infringing if you adapt their idea to a standard frame size hive. However, the layens if heavily insulated might infringe. It is just a application, they haven't been granted a patent, and what if any claims are allowed will be hard to know.


----------



## GregB

A Novice said:


> If you are surrounded by commercial beeks who run heavily treated italians and carnis, your queens will mate with drones that are highly susceptible, and your hives will be highly susceptible to varroa. This is especially true if you are in an area where the climate and nectar flows make survival for "wild" colonies diffcult.
> 
> Even if you trap swarms that are "wild", they won't survive in standard langstroth hives, as the brood chambers are too large. However, if you hppen to be in an area with an abundance of "wild" bees, and not too close to any commercial operations, and in a fairly mild climate, treatment free appears to be easy.


This much my 5 year TF attempt has reconfirmed.
The next phase is 5(?) year attempt at the very minimal and the least possible toxic treatments (or call it IPM whatever).


----------



## GregB

A Novice said:


> Google "primalbee"


Googled.
I don't care for it.
It does not matter that much and it is outright prohibitive to peeps like myself.


Bees do just fine in my own hand-made hives from scraps (if not for the mite-dense environment I have - that is what really needs addressed).


----------



## ursa_minor

A Novice said:


> There is some evidence that a well insulated hive is superior to an uninsulated hive. You can look at the primalbee hive as one example. Google "primalbee" or look at US patent Application *20210161107. *Their claims all revolve around a frame size equal to about two deeps, (claim 40) so don't worry about infringing if you adapt their idea to a standard frame size hive. However, the layens if heavily insulated might infringe. It is just a application, they haven't been granted a patent, and what if any claims are allowed will be hard to know.


The layens if heavily insulated might infringe? infringe on what? I highly doubt that they can claim patent infringement on a wooden square or an insulated box no matter the dimensions. 

Here is an excerpt from the Canadian Patent site, notice how it says* new*, a layens hive no matter how it is insulated is not new, the long deep frame is also not new.* Inventive*, it must not be an obvious design that someone of average skill who works in the field did not already do or would not have thought of and many beekeepers here on BS have proposed similar style hives. 

*What you can patent*
_Patents apply to inventions. An invention is eligible for patent protection if it is:
_

_new—first in the world_
_useful—functional and operative_
_inventive—showing ingenuity and not obvious to someone of average skill who works in the field of your invention_

This type of company who puts in claims that are untrue is one of the things that ticks me off and make me get up on my soapbox.

1.They make the false claim that Amtraz is mandatory in a Langstroth but not in a Primal
2.They make the false claim that Langstroths have 100% colony population and they have 200% what the heck does that even mean?
3. They make the claim that bees in a Langstroth fly at 12.8C and the Primal at 9C, nope my Langstroth has bees flying at cooler temps than my insulated hives. All my bees were flying at 5C this fall.


This may be a great hive, great for winter, and a good product, but making false claims in order to mislead people is something that bothers me.


----------



## GregB

A Novice said:


> Their claims all revolve around a frame size equal to about two deeps, (claim 40) so don't worry about infringing if you adapt their idea to a standard frame size hive.


Their idea of the frame size equal to about two deeps (assuming Lang system) might as well infringe on the commonly used Ukrainian frame officially announced in 1918 in Kiev, Ukraine.  It has been in public domain for 100+ years officially (and much longer unofficially).
The Ukrainian frame is what I proposed to copy instead of the Layen's frame promoted by L. Sharashkin - this is to facilitate the compatibility with the Langstroth frame.
I did so myself some years ago - started using the Ukrainian frame (refer to this exact forum for the documented evidence of that).
People re-invent a bicycle and then patent it.
For shame.


----------



## GregB

A Novice said:


> they won't survive in standard langstroth hives, as the brood chambers are too large.


To be sure I have not a single proper Lang hive anyway. 
So that did not help.


----------



## A Novice

ursa_minor said:


> ....
> This may be a great hive, great for winter, and a good product, but making false claims in order to mislead people is something that bothers me.


Agreed. I am somewhat doubtful they will get their patent, as the test in the US is
Usefulness - easily met (the legal standard is not based on practicality)
Novelty - easily met - as long as there is something new (which is a low standard) it will pass this.
Non-Obviousness - This is more difficult. I have serious doubts they can meet this requirement, but that is part of the reason at least for all of the charts and graphs. If they can convince the examiner that they have found a specific solution to the hive design with advantages which were not obvious to the average person skilled in the art, they will get a patent.

I agree some of what they claim is unlikely to be confirmed by independent researchers. However, they appear to have done a great deal of experimenting to come to their solution. Their data shows it is great for summer, which I find intriguing. I like living in a well insulated house in summer.

My personal expectation is that they may get a patent, but will have to significantly restrict their claims to do so.

Remember, all they are claiming to have invented is contained in the claims. The rest of the patent just provides background and context.


----------



## A Novice

GregV said:


> Their idea of the frame size equal to about two deeps (assuming Lang system) might as well infringe on the commonly used Ukrainian frame officially announced in 1918 in Kiev, Ukraine.  It has been in public domain for 100+ years officially (and much longer unofficially).
> The Ukrainian frame is what I proposed to copy instead of the Layen's frame promoted by L. Sharashkin - this is to facilitate the compatibility with the Langstroth frame.
> I did so myself some years ago - started using the Ukrainian frame (refer to this exact forum for the documented evidence of that).
> People re-invent a bicycle and then patent it.
> For shame.


I think you misunderstood me. While all of their claims include a frame similar to the AZ frame or Layens, or Lazutin, they have additional items in the claims which are not part of either of those hive types.
In order to infringe a patent, you must have all of the items listed in the claim.
If someone patents peanut butter and jelly on toast, you are infringing if you have butter, peanut butter and jelly on toast, (you added butter, but it still doesn't matter, as you have the 3 things listed) but not if you have peanut butter and jelly on bread. (bread is not toast). You are also not infringing if you have butter and jelly on toast. (no peanut butter). Obviously, none of those are patentable at this point in time. It is just an example.

There are over 2000 US patents in the area of beekeeping, and maybe 100 of those are for innovations in frames.

Many of these involve improvements which are pretty minor. The vast majority have never been produced or sold in volume.

Also, you cannot infringe a design which has been known since 1918, nor can you patent it. Nor can you steal it, as it is in the public domain.


----------



## GregB

A Novice said:


> I think you misunderstood me.


Maybe I did; maybe not.

In any case, I am not going to pursue this hive whatever it is.
Nor I will worry if I myself somehow infringe on anything. 
Not worth it.


----------



## GregB

Cool and dry around here - still picking up the back yard mess before it gets snowed in.
Meanwhile took some more pics and thinking maybe I jumped the gun with the insulation (still too warm).
Them bees are now coming up and gathering under the plastic cover (because they sense the warmth).
Too high too soon for my liking.
Took a layer off.

Shedding paint 16-framer, used to be funky "blue and white condo" - Italian swarm (#8 on the list).
"Big Brown Boy" - hive-inside-hive - VSH daughter (#5 on the list). These guys have the best insulation ever. But will it matter? Usually does not if not treated.
"Gray Boy" - empty 20-framer - keep it empty for now, for the long hive demos.
Little CVH - just spare CVH equipment sitting about.


----------



## GregB

OK, now just sit back and do other things.
The next check will be around X-Mas holidays.

To summarize:

12 hives = 6 VSH lineage + 6 random bees (I decided to include my "student" hive into this report too since I closely monitor them anyway - a random bee unit which I made anyway).
each of these 12 units had OA dribble administered during summer *once *
---- (no particular schedule but whenever I managed to make them brood-less OR immediately after I caught them as a swarm)
11 units had *single *LA dribble administered on Nov 6/7 weekend 
---- (but the "student" unit as I hated taking apart the Lang double-deep - will be a test case where they went through a second brood break)
thus, *two *alternating organic acid treatments applied during the *brood breaks*.


----------



## GregB

Being a dry weekend and a bee-workable (37F) day (tomorrow should be snowing and then the temp drops) - I did a quick fix of a known problem.
The problem was - I mistakenly left an unsuitable frame in the wintering setup and did not fix it on the spot as should have done (was flip-flopping what to do).

Well, today I went for it, fixed it and called it done.
1)The frame was low on stores and the outside face of it was nearly empty - while lots of bees clustered on the frame (red outline).
2)Pulled the frame out.
3)Shook the bees onto the frame tops (mostly very sleepy bees, but few did jump at me).
4)Closed the follower board and covered the bees.
5)Closed the hive.

A little bit of hassle and few lost bees are worth it saving the entire frame from perishing without honey.
The temp is just high enough for the bees to regroup and resettle just before the forecasted temp drop.
Most likely the queen was on the inner frames and I am not going to worry about it (did a good job shaking the bees onto the top bars anyway).

This is to point out that it is idea of, god forbid, bothering the bees is really overrated.
It it totally worth it to fix issues in *late fall/early winter *that will benefit the rest of the wintering.
I would not have done this in later winter, however (when the bees accumulated lots of fecal matter).
Of course, the long hive setup itself is really helpful for such jobs.


----------



## OneMoClimb

GregV said:


> Not to pollute the "cost of treatment" topic anymore, putting it here.....
> 
> Granted, large-scale commercial way is different from a small-scale hobby way and has different priorities and methods used accordingly - most of us get it and so just get this out of the way.
> There are also intermediate cases and we also get it and let us just skip this diversion.
> 
> Did it occur to anyone that there is more than one way get your own bee products (better be "clean" if do make them for yourself), still have the producing bees annually, and yet not be following the commercial ways of doing so (which depend on recurring medication)?
> 
> So, the bee-die off is a part of my picture - I expect few colonies to die and I will appropriate their resources as I see fit.
> The survivors will continue to be part of my hobby bee-selection process going forward.
> The dead will have contributed to the human and bee nutrition programs.
> Everything has purpose.
> 
> In the old time, people would have to kill few hives to get their honey.
> Here and now, the current environment does the same easily.
> In fact, I want few of my hives to die so I am not the one choosing who to rob and who to spare.
> 
> So, in fact, I would rather have 5-6 of my current 14 colonies die (preferably the largest colonies and preferably as quickly as possible so to leave behind most of the resources).
> I would also prefer most of my small/medium colonies to survive and serve as the 2019 season start ups (cheaper to winter; likely healthier being late nucs; the spring development does not much matter of the fall colony size anyway).
> 
> As of the moment, I hardly harvested any honey (only few pounds for the kids).
> The year has been bad.
> However, just a couple of strong dead-outs (sounds weird, ah?) should easily provide more than enough honey and uncontaminated perga for our annual consumption and give-away in lieu of rent payments.
> 
> So here you have it, a "politically-incorrect", inconvenient, agitating statement - I *want* some of my bees die.
> 
> To be sure, I don't want ALL of my bees die, 50% survival would be fine with me and a good place to restart the next season.
> Just letting the nature (including the mites) do the culling for me.
> Hopefully, by Thanksgiving I get a few drop-offs - good riddance and some holiday crop for us.


Greg, in my book you are not a beekeeper, just another beewatcher. We have plenty of your kind here around Chicago.


----------



## GregB

OneMoClimb said:


> Greg, in my book you are not a beekeeper, just another beewatcher. We have plenty of your kind here around Chicago.


I don't care how you call me.
Feel free to save your time and ignore me (a nice feature of this forum). 
Please do.

PS: Packers still own Bears; so that. LOL


----------



## msl

OneMoClimb said:


> Greg, in my book you are not a beekeeper, just another beewatcher. We have plenty of your kind here around Chicago.


Your book is one post, Greg's is 66 pages 🤪 Read The whole thread

It a great read, with him calling it as it is, full survival and spring strength details, and his slow transition to minimal organic management (*cough* "treatment") to see if he can get numbers back up, come spring we will see what kind of impact it has had on his bees, as he will tell it like it is..

I get your sentiment, plenty of those around here too... read the thread watch the amount of effort that was put in and the changes based on experience... we all grow... I am not the same beekeper form 3 years back, neither is Greg


----------



## A Novice

OneMoClimb said:


> Greg, in my book you are not a beekeeper, just another beewatcher. We have plenty of your kind here around Chicago.


I think you have just won the award for worst way to get started in an online community.

Seriously.

Greg is a beekeeping scientist. He experiments, tests, hypothesizes, and records his results. I really appreciate that he is doing the experiments he is, so that I can benefit from his experiment without having to deal with the frustrations of being treatment free in an urban Wisconsin environment. 

So moving on from that...

You keep bees in Illinois? How is it going?


----------



## GregB

A Novice said:


> Greg is a beekeeping scientist.


LOL
Thanks Novice!
A backyard "scientist" but hey, basic fact-finding is NOT that complicated, but rather about consistency and honest record keeping.

PS: getting ready to watch that coming Packer/Bear show off!?

I am not even a true die-hard fan and never been to a live game (tailgating by the Lambeau Field and all that).
Still, what is not to love about the well-progressing Packer season - everyone loves it and hopes for that long-overdue Superbowl win!

One beekeeping thing to learn from the Packers (largely thanks to ARod) - the consistency.
If you started the thing - then keep going and not just quietly drop off and hide away (as if nothing happened).


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> come spring we will see what kind of impact it has had on his bees, as he will tell it like it is..


Thanks MSL!
I sure will.

Hoping for one a month round up and status report.
In the past, by about X-Mas/New Year I should have had first losses - rather reliably. 
Will see.

Yep, excited to see how this 2021/2022 iteration goes. 
I have a good feeling looking at my current winter clusters, BUT I was optimistic before and we know how that ended.

I don't have a good plan yet what to do with all the bees IF I have too many make it to spring (which would be rather unusual for me).
More equipment will be needed.

Well, have some "alternative" ideas how to monetize the potential - be nice to at least make up for the fuel I burned driving around all these years.


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> PS: Packers still own Bears; so that. LOL


Meh. Cheeseheads.


----------



## GregB

Not much going on.
Figured I'd brag about my sauna while sweating in it and listening to a BIBBA webinar.


----------



## Litsinger

GregV said:


> Figured I'd brag about my sauna while sweating in it and listening to a BIBBA webinar.


Niiice...


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Not much going on.
> Figured I'd brag about my sauna while sweating in it and listening to a BIBBA webinar.


There is that crusty, propolis packed rag is hanging (in the picture).
I hold it over the hot stones for a bit and it gives off a nice smell too - a beekeeper twist.
Or you can splash some beer onto the stones - also niiiice.


----------



## GregB

Last year about now the main part of hammering was happening and within a month it was pretty much over.


> #1 - dead
> #2 - dead
> #3 - dead
> #4 - dead
> *#5 - alive*
> #6 - dead
> #7 - dead
> #8 - dead
> #9 - dead
> #10 - dead
> *#11 - alive*
> #12 - dead (technically still alive but barely; written off)
> #13 - dead
> #14 - dead
> *#15 - alive*
> -----------------
> 20% still alive as of 01/17/2012


Sometimes late this week/next week we are going to go around and take look at the status.
Cant wait.


----------



## GregB

OK, pulled some more historical data for easier comps of the ongoing 2021/2020 winter.
If any difference, it should start showing itself.

Looking back at 2019/2020:


> 12/23/2019
> Down to 9 units - 9/19 (47%).
> 
> 12/27/2019
> 8/19 (42%).
> 
> 12/29/2019
> -2.
> 6/19 (32%).
> 
> 01/20/2020
> -1
> 5/19 (26%).


Looking back at 2018/2019:


> 01/13/2019
> Overall this is 10/14 survival so far.


Which is 71%.


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> Not much going on.
> Figured I'd brag about my sauna while sweating in it and listening to a BIBBA webinar.


I envy that. I mentioned to my wife a few days ago that I wanted to build a little sauna. She was less than keen on the idea. Her thinking is that since we don't plan to retire here, it is pointless to make any additions. My thinking is that one can wait until later to do all sorts of things, but 'later' eventually runs out for all of us.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Her thinking is that since we don't plan to retire here, it is pointless to make any additions.


Yeah, that "retirement" thing often gets in a way.

Guess we don't want to move anywhere and not worrying about it.
Right here is just fine until something changes.

Once that decision is made, it is then easy to go ahead and "screw up" with your house in any way you want and don't worry of the resale value and such.
Otherwise you don't really own the house (if keep worrying of the resale) - but then why even buy the darn thing.

Anyway, the sauna may or may not add any value - a non-standard addition in the eyes of many.
But I always wanted one and got that checked off.
A little sauna is really not that expensive/hard to obtain. 
Mine is a mid-range one.


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> Yeah, that "retirement" thing often gets in a way.
> 
> Guess we don't want to move anywhere and not worrying about it.
> Right here is just fine until something changes.
> 
> Once that decision is made, it is then easy to go ahead and "screw up" with your house in any way you want and don't worry of the resale value and such.
> Otherwise you don't really own the house (if keep worrying of the resale) - but then why even buy the darn thing.
> 
> Anyway, the sauna may or may not add any value - a non-standard addition in the eyes of many.
> But I always wanted one and got that checked off.
> A little sauna is really not that expensive/hard to obtain.
> Mine is a mid-range one.


My plan is to build one, small, one-person box. Her dad had one like that and I loved it. Great way to steam away a cold.


----------



## Gray Goose

AR1 said:


> I envy that. I mentioned to my wife a few days ago that I wanted to build a little sauna. She was less than keen on the idea. Her thinking is that since we don't plan to retire here, it is pointless to make any additions. My thinking is that one can wait until later to do all sorts of things, but 'later' eventually runs out for all of us.


here in Mich if you do a fair job the sauna,, can add more value that it costs to build it.
I am planning to build one this coming summer or next, then use it for a few years, And get back more than I spent.
there are many health benefits ,so not sure why the not keen it going on. she may be more ready to move than you think.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> I am planning to build one this coming summer or next, then use it for a few years, And get back more than I spent.


For sure in places with relatively cold winters (like here), a sauna should be considered a value-added.
If comes to it, I fully intend to bill it that way if comes to it (hope not).


----------



## HaplozygousNut

GregV said:


> OK, pulled some more historical data for easier comps of the ongoing 2021/2020 winter.
> If any difference, it should start showing itself.
> 
> Looking back at 2019/2020:
> 
> 
> Looking back at 2018/2019:
> 
> Which is 71%.


I wish you good luck this winter! May God grant you success with your bees!


----------



## GregB

Back from my XMas bee checking/dry feed distribution.

More details later, but - every single darn hive is alive and looking rather well - even the weaklings look rather viable.
I never had 100% survival at the Christmas before (ok, maybe once when I had 2 hives).

Took two frames of honey - that is ALL of my XMas harvest because bees need that honey more than I do.

If this continues (fingers and toes crossed), I will have a problem in spring.


----------



## GregB

Update as of 12/23/2021 
Every colony got a nice chunk of fondant as an emergency insurance. 
Some got two chunks

---------------------------------------
#1 - VSH survivor queen - I had to virtually crack away the side frame to see the bees - they are SO, SO quite and sit down deep - perfect!

#2 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - the cluster is pretty high, almost to the level of top bars - for sure the hard feed should be here (stores were light too)

#3 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - also had to crack one frame away to just see the bees down there (very quiet and low); stole two more honey frames here for XMas; two fondant chunks.

#4 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - cluster is also deep down and quiet - good.

#5 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - cluster is high; four seams of bees - still OK, though they look very calm and stable; these guys had some late mite damaged larvae; hard feed was due for this weakling IMO;
---------------------------
#7 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - cluster is also high and also four seams; some bee attrition due to a shrew under the lid (darn thing); hard feed was about due

#8 - random swarm queen - cluster is sitting pretty high; two fondant chunks for them as I stole frames of excellent Goldenrod honey earlier here

#9 - daughter of a random swarm queen - very large cluster on 9 frames and sitting very low (could not even steal any honey - bees are everywhere)

#10 - random swarm queen - very quiet; sitting low; two feed chunks

#11 - daughter of a random swarm queen - sitting down low as well and look fine (though there was late mite damaged larvae)

#12 - daughter of a random swarm queen - this is my CVH experiment - had to crack boxes down - these bees are sitting very low and were very quiet
-------------------------------
#13 - the hive of my "student" - a pretty loud bunch but should be OK.

-----------------------------------------------
I can see loosing maybe #2, #5, #7 per their current strengths.
Maybe.
I have wintered similar clusters before just fine.
Besides, this season they were treated and that should help.


----------



## GregB

GregV's way to hard feed lately - scrounged a good supply of baking fondant - should be good for another couple of years..
Cut, cut, cut.
Wrap, wrap, wrap.
Drop in.
Cover and done.


----------



## GregB

Found some last year's nasty looking leftovers.
Dropped them in too.


----------



## GregB

How is my preferred setup looks like - no bee crawling and no sounds of life - a very strong cluster on nine frames is hanging way down there and has lots of honey above their heads.


----------



## GregB

These bees are too high too early - no more way of going up but only sideways (which may or may not be possible) - hard feed is needed now.


----------



## GregB

Opened up this hive a little bit.
There maybe excessive moisture as I had them wrapped up using scrounged Tyvek (it for sure was trapping the moisture under it).


----------



## GregB

58q349jqf87142111! $&%$^%$_%$_ shrew!!!!!
Some attrition here.
Made changes to prevent the bees coming up above the insulation.


----------



## GregB

Dirt cheap yard #2 is ready for 2022.


----------



## AR1

GregV said:


> Opened up this hive a little bit.
> There maybe excessive moisture as I had them wrapped up using scrounged Tyvek (it for sure was trapping the moisture under it).


I don't like plastic on a hive. My first colonies died overwinter, very wet, and I blame excessive wrapping with plastic.


----------



## Gray Goose

AR1 said:


> I don't like plastic on a hive. My first colonies died overwinter, very wet, and I blame excessive wrapping with plastic.


wood does "breath" one of its features over foam hives for example.

GG


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> I don't like plastic on a hive. My first colonies died overwinter, very wet, and I blame excessive wrapping with plastic.


That not-permeable wrap was NOT good when I completely wrapped the hive (including the roof and blocking the proper venting.).
Exposed the roof so that the vents are fully drafty.
Actually, will stop by today and see - but pretty sure it will be OK now.

It is OK to wrap with anything handy (even plastic) but remembering that the goal is block the bulk of the wind - NOT to completely seal the hive inside the enclosure (moisture and all).


----------



## GregB

GregV said:


> Actually, will stop by today and see - but pretty sure it will be OK now.


All good.
Bees are fine under the hodgepodge, dirt cheap trash insulation.
Hive inside hive works.


----------



## GregB

Wish we had more snow as I could definitely use it.
Well, doing best I can.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> Update as of 12/23/2021
> Every colony got a nice chunk of fondant as an emergency insurance.
> Some got two chunks
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> ..........................
> #5 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - cluster is high; four seams of bees - still OK, though they look very calm and stable; these guys had some late mite damaged larvae; hard feed was due for this weakling IMO;
> ............
> #8 - random swarm queen - cluster is sitting pretty high; two fondant chunks for them as I stole frames of excellent Goldenrod honey earlier here
> .................
> I can see loosing maybe #2, #5, #7 per their current strengths.
> Maybe.
> I have wintered similar clusters before just fine.
> Besides, this season they were treated and that should help.


Partial update as of 01/18/2022.
Having a chance to peek into my backyard hives since I am at home and the temp is +1C now.

#5 and #8 are looking fine and dandy.
Started up on their dry sugar.
I need not to look back at these for another ~month - they should be fine.
Clearly the organic acid dribbles are saving the day.

Also, the #8 is my control hive with the September mite count of ~3% - at this infestation level this hive should be either dead or dying.
So if the LAD applied in November is working, then this is great news.

This coming Saturday (Jan 22nd) it should be toasty -4C.
Maybe I will get to peek into more hives; otherwise no good window anytime soon.


----------



## david stern

GregB said:


> So if the LAD applied in November is working, then this is great news.


what does LAD mean?


----------



## Gray Goose

david stern said:


> what does LAD mean?


I think Oxalic Drip


----------



## crofter

Greg does have quite a few posts on lactic acid: LAD = lactic acid drizzle would be my guess.


----------



## GregB

david stern said:


> what does LAD mean?


Lactic Acid Dribble.

Review this:








Stop using smoke, use diluted lactic acid.


In 1998 I stoped using smoke when treating my 35 hives. At that time we got varroa in my region, and beekeepers were reccomended to use a lactic acid treatment to control the varroa level. Recipe: Lactic acid 80% is mixed with water, 10% of this lactic acid + 90% of tap water added. We use a...




www.beesource.com





And this:


V2


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> Greg does have quite a few posts on lactic acid: LAD = lactic acid drizzle would be my guess.


When I actually went for it - the LAD.








GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.


In both cases 1 and 2, the queens subsequently relay the empty cells. Pretty soon it becomes untraceable mess Thanks for the detailed reply, GregV. It was helpful. Based on what you describe, it sounds fairly consistent with VSH, excepting the part of an inconsistent laying pattern right out of...




www.beesource.com


----------



## GregB

OK, let's listen to people who actually know something about beekeeping and about the true Russian bees.


Here is Sergey Gopka.
Here is a popular vlogger/beekeeper who commercially runs 500+ colonies in the Primorsky region of Russia - the home place of the Russian bees.

He starts his video with this statement:

*".... For several years I was only presuming that some of my colonies were able to fight the mites all by themselves, however now I am completely convinced of this.
This talk will be largely about the Primorsky (aka Russian in the US) and the Ukrainian bees........"*

For the rest of the talk, you will need to read the auto-translit.
I might insert something later if I find worthwhile snippets and it is not too much work for me.

Edit: the really interesting stuff starts at about 12:00 and on ...

(before that is just some talk of the American studies of the Russian bees; but there is an important and interesting point that _really_ one should be looking at the Ukrainian Steppe bees as very well known to be highly hygienic - the Ukrainian bees are the primary historical foundation of the Primorsky bees)

Edit2: OK, basically Sergey for various reasons screwed up his regular treatments and had high losses recently;
several colonies stood out as being strong and having very low mite counts - while the general situation was dire;
currently he isolated the "survivor" lines (he mentioned somewhere along 12 colonies) and is working to switch over his operation to this resistant lines;
in the video he also called out to his regional peers with observed resistant bees to get in touch and see into exchanging the resistant material

Edit3: Serkey talked at length about Vladimir (a beekeeper from Ukraine who runs the Ukrainian bee) - they communicated and exchanged their experiences regarding the resistant bees;
Vladimir also confirmed of his own independent observations where certain Ukrainian lineages require very little treatments (once per season) vs. the other bees;
Vladimir stated that he and some of his friends prefer to stay quiet about these findings so not to be mocked by the majority of the "conventional" beekeepers


----------



## david stern

Does he tell what treatments he normally does?


----------



## GregB

david stern said:


> Does he tell what treatments he normally does?


At the center of the issue with his large recent losses were some Chinese strips.
Sounded like he routinely depended on those strips.
Something did not work out properly this time around with the end of the season treatment.

Basically, I assume Amitraz.
Strips at commercial level pretty much mean Amitraz.

He also runs a study about measuring Amitraz accumulation in honey - but this is a different subject.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> Update as of 12/23/2021
> Every colony got a nice chunk of fondant as an emergency insurance.
> Some got two chunks
> ---------------------------------------
> #1 - VSH survivor queen - I had to virtually crack away the side frame to see the bees - they are SO, SO quite and sit down deep - perfect!
> 
> #2 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - the cluster is pretty high, almost to the level of top bars - for sure the hard feed should be here (stores were light too)
> 
> #3 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - also had to crack one frame away to just see the bees down there (very quiet and low); stole two more honey frames here for XMas; two fondant chunks.
> 
> #4 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - cluster is also deep down and quiet - good.
> ---------------------------------
> I can see loosing maybe #2, #5, #7 per their current strengths.
> Maybe.
> I have wintered similar clusters before just fine.
> Besides, this season they were treated and that should help.


Another partial update as of 01/22/2022.
Walked over to my #2 yard with the main VSH project - four hives there.

#1 - VSH survivor queen - bees are just now barely reaching to the dry feed; to be sure added another pancake so not to worry for another month.

#2 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - this guys are all over under the dry feed; added few more fondant pieces; pretty much dry feed is make or break in this problematic hive.

#3 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - the bees are still way down there; could hardly hear them, but there is healthy and solid hum... good. No need to be adding anymore dry feed.

#4 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - also had to listen hard to hear the bees - they are fine and just now reaching the dry feed. Added another pancake just to be sure.

Overall, 100% in this yard too.

#2 has been a question mark all along - but this has nothing to do with the mites, but rather a screwed up queen since the summer. Without mite control, this smallish cluster should be dead by now.

Pretty much by now, last decade of January, I would expect significant losses.
January has been solidly cold, not Canada!, but good Wisconsin winter with occasional -20Cs.
January is pretty good at weeding out problematic, weak clusters.

Clearly, the program change is working.
It all pretty much boiled down to the mite control - not to "you are doing something wrong" as suggested by Sol. P. and some other TF experts.
The next weekend forecast looks good to drive to the remainder of the hives.


----------



## GregB

So in Russ's "blog" I said:


> The essential "Bond" part which has been omitted by most previous "let them die" promoters:
> 
> large number of colonies available (hundreds at the least).
> relative isolation afforded.
> Basically, don't try this at home at your own_ little suburban_ backyard.


To be sure people understand what is "little suburban" backyard context.
It is not just the most trivial little yard with three hives in it - this one maybe obvious.

But here is a less obvious case where we are talking of a yard containing many square miles.
My bees are scattered across seven (7) locations where direct distance between the yard #1 and #4 is 8-9 miles as a crow flies (see picture).
This is STILL nothing but a "little suburban backyard" situation where you just can not get away from anyone else doing their own bee thing.

Every single location on this map is a good swarm trapping spot - this is how I don't chase the swarms anymore as they come directly to me.
But also this means there are bees everywhere around, whether I hate it or love it.
Great for free bee scrounging.
Terrible for most any "Bond" style experimentation (or for TF in general) as there is no isolation to speak of.

By now I am aware where many other "competitor" beeks are located around me.
But even if I don't see them, their bees visiting my traps and equipment confirm their presence.
In addition, lots (if not most new beeks) want to go treatment-free due to the strong influence projecting from the Internet sources.
Many of these people show up on our local beekeeping forum for 2-3 years, then they go off-line to never be heard from again. 

This results in a suburban beekeeping anarchy situation, a strong counter-indication for the TF projects.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> ...a yard containing many square miles.


Greg: Just curious- what is the approximate length of each side of the rectangular polyline you indicated? Just curious as to the approximate area of your yards and how many reasonably intersect with the flight range of the others.


GregB said:


> ...a suburban beekeeping anarchy situation...


I chuckled when I read this. I'm picturing a semi-retired hippy with a Warre hive thinking, '_Down with the machine!'_ as he covertly installs his Mite Bomb behind his backyard privacy fence.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I chuckled when I read this. I'm picturing a semi-retired hippy with a Warre hive thinking, '_Down with the machine!'_ as he covertly installs his Mite Bomb behind his backyard privacy fence.


LOL!!
About right.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Greg: Just curious- what is the approximate length of each side of the rectangular polyline you indicated? Just curious as to the approximate area of your yards and how many reasonably intersect with the flight range of the others.


Russ, this rectangle I pasted is little bigger than 9x10 miles.
So ~100 square miles.
100 square miles is a convenient approximated numeric value.

For the yards #3, #5, #6, #7 - the competing bees are within visual range.
I can see them now that I know where to look.

EDIT: now that I think of it - there are supposed "treatment-free" survivor bees located just between my #6 and #7 (sourced from a cut-out if my intel is correct);
at least, this is how a swarm for sale originating from there was advertised just this summer;
since I caught swarms in both #6 and #7 last summer, maybe I nailed some of those "TF" bees? 

Yards #1 and #2 - closest known competing bees are within a mile (as of last summer).
#1 has been my the most prolific captured swarm producer to date - my very own backyard. 

#4 - I don't know visually where the other bees are.
But as measured by the swarm trap activity - there is more than one bee source in the area (different looking bees, simply stated).

So if I have 7 locations within these 100 sq. miles - there are at least 7 other independent locations (most likely more than 7).
For sure, there is at least one other independent of me bee location that overlaps with each one of my locations.
This is affirmative.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> So if I have 7 locations within these 100 sq. miles - there are at least 7 other independent locations (most likely more than 7).


While I don't know much about your specific locale, I venture it is safe to say that you have at least this many other operators. I say this in comparison to my relatively isolated location (i.e. low population density and no migratory operations that I am aware of). 

I know of four other beekeepers within my apiary flight range. While my operation is equal in size to the combined size of the other four keepers, one key difference is that three of the four operate treatment free utilizing swarm stock- relatively successfully I might add. 

For my part, I do hope that your apiary neighbor does have some successful TF stock- that at least holds out hope that some resistance genetics are available in the population.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> For my part, I do hope that your apiary neighbor does have some successful TF stock- that at least holds out hope that some resistance genetics are available in the population.


Actually, if we can consistently hold out on just 1-2 strategically timed and soft treatments per a season - that would be great progress.
Now that would be a good goal to achieve, given the circumstances.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Now that would be a good goal to achieve, given the circumstances.


Hard to argue that. Seems like you are well on your way this season.


----------



## A Novice

Excellent report!
Glad your bees are making it.

You are right about the Bond method. It won't work if you only have a small number of hives. But I think it doesn't work in any case. The sample size is 1 (either it lives or dies) and doing experiments with a sample size of 1 it is impossible to get statistically significant results. Repeating the experiment 100 times with 100 hives doesn't change the sample size, it just gives you more statistically insignificant results. It feels like it gives better results, but it doesn't.
In the end, you have no way of knowing if the bees that survived did so because they were better bees, or if they just got lucky somehow.

Anyway, I like your results better this year. I am living in the middle of bee anarchy also, though with the political leanings of Waukesha being quite different than those of Madison, I suspect my local beekeepers are a good deal more realistic in their aspirations than yours.


----------



## GregB

A Novice said:


> Excellent report!
> Glad your bees are making it.


Thanks AN.
Dunno if and how the Waukesha Co. beeks are different from the Dane Co. beeks.
Remember - those leaning libertarian and liberal do intersect in many beekeeing views. 

Just now occurred to me to also add approximate 2 mile radius zones (give or take) around each of the bases.
This is a very sloppy drawing but is suggestive of the areas where I am getting my swarms from..
Other vague ideas are also floating around.


----------



## GregB

A Novice said:


> Repeating the experiment 100 times with 100 hives doesn't change the sample size, it just gives you more statistically insignificant results.


This is ONLY true IF every single trial of these 100 attempts is TRULY independent of the others - as if in flipping coins.

With bees you can not state the same.
This is not compatible to flipping a coin 100 times.

Look at my picture - you can not state that the yard #1 is entirely and fully 100% identical to the yard #4.
I know why and how these yards are different from each other.
Thus, any kind of Bond testing in the yard #1 is not identical to the same in yard #4 - not the same as flipping the same exact coin.

But also true that the entire 100 mile block depicted is (at large) a "little suburban yard" with several main defining features.


----------



## A Novice

GregB said:


> Thanks AN.
> Dunno if and how the Waukesha Co. beeks are different from the Dane Co. beeks.
> Remember - those leaning libertarian and liberal do intersect in many beekeeing views.
> 
> Just now occurred to me to also add approximate 2 mile radius zones (give or take) around each of the bases.
> This is a very sloppy drawing but is suggestive of the areas where I am getting my swarms from..
> Other vague ideas are also floating around.
> 
> 
> View attachment 67248


Waukesha is more traditional conservative than libertarian. Very responsible folk.

I would expect lots more nature worshipping starry eyed save-the-bees types up your way.

Even so I treat all fall, because I have no doubt that the Marinus T Vanderlubbe international firebombing society (beekeeping chapter) is alive and active in my community.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> Update as of 12/23/2021
> Every colony got a nice chunk of fondant as an emergency insurance.
> Some got two chunks
> 
> #7 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - cluster is also high and also four seams; some bee attrition due to a shrew under the lid (darn thing); hard feed was about due
> -------------------------
> #9 - daughter of a random swarm queen - very large cluster on 9 frames and sitting very low (could not even steal any honey - bees are everywhere)
> 
> #10 - random swarm queen - very quiet; sitting low; two feed chunks
> 
> #11 - daughter of a random swarm queen - sitting down low as well and look fine (though there was late mite damaged larvae)
> 
> #12 - daughter of a random swarm queen - this is my CVH experiment - had to crack boxes down - these bees are sitting very low and were very quiet
> -------------------------------
> #13 - the hive of my "student" - a pretty loud bunch but should be OK.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------
> I can see loosing maybe #2, #5, #7 per their current strengths.
> Maybe.
> I have wintered similar clusters before just fine.
> Besides, this season they were treated and that should help.


Final of the partial updates - as of 01/30/2022

100% - just like that, with two treatments.

Well, some details are due...

#7 are ON the dry feed
They has been hit by a shrew continuously and the attrition over the last month has been high.
This is a weak cluster by now because of the slaughter and only survives due to the hard feed in the above frame.
This is also a good demonstration case how weak clusters can be setup for successful wintering - I was surprised to find them still alive granted the damage I found.
Plugged every single hole I found to be suspicious, including the entrances - fingers crossed.
If I lose #7 - this one will be on the beekeeper ($h!!tty equipment that lets the darn animals inside).





























#9 number of bees got above the soft covers and got stuck and died up there;
this can be an issue with soft covers with bees finding a hole around the blankets and going to explore the winter attic (and ending up dead).
but then some colonies stay out of trouble by simply practicing calm wintering;
and yet others seem to be too active and looking for something to do, instead of just quietly snoozing
NOT in the dry feed yet.










#10 has a clear ventilation problems - the cluster is large and outputs too much moisture for the poor ventilation provided (not fixable until spring now - well, I got and idea for next weekend; maybe I can).
I had to crack the lid to mitigate the immediate issue - this is risking a mouse or shrew getting inside (fingers crossed - hopefully the crack is not too large).
NOT in the dry feed yet.






























#11 are ON the dry feed; I added another chunk to ensure they have enough.
This is actually good to see these guys alive, granted they did have some mite damaged larvae in late fall.

#12 - very pleased; I am liking this CVH more and more
NOT in the dry feed yet.



















#13 - student's Lang is doing just fine.
NOT in the dry feed yet.










Overall - very pleased.
By now I should have about 50% loss per the previous experience.
So for now I am only truly concerned for #7, but nothing I can do at this point.


----------



## GregB

More notes as of 01/30/2022
Whatever happens over the most critical months of February/March, I am confident this winter will be way over the 50% success rate (never achieved before while I was off the chems).
I would love to see this winter end with 90%+.
This two-treatment regiment I should stick to as good-enough for my purposes and the future reporting consistency.

While driving home tonight, I also decided to grade wintering of every colony for my own record and future decisions (and might as well do it here and now).
As of this point in the season - A to F
---------------------------------------
#1 - VSH survivor queen - A (just under the dry feed in Jan)

#2 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - B (consuming the dry feed in Jan)

#3 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - A+ (way down under the dry feed in Jan)

#4 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - A (just under dry the feed in Jan)

#5 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - B- (consuming dry the feed in Jan; mite damaged brood in fall)
---------------------------
#7 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - C (smallish cluster and totally dependent on the insulated dry feed now; unsure if they make it - but this is due to the external factor - shrew)

#8 - random swarm queen - B (consuming dry the feed in Jan)

#9 - daughter of a random swarm queen - B (way down under the dry feed in Jan, BUT this is the only hive where too many bees were too active and got above the covers and perished )

#10 - random swarm queen - A+ (way down under the dry feed in Jan; excessive moisture mitigated - lousy equipment to be fixed)

#11 - daughter of a random swarm queen - B- (consuming dry the feed in Jan; mite damaged brood in fall)

#12 - daughter of a random swarm queen - A+ (way down under the dry feed in Jan)
-------------------------------
#13 - the hive of my "student" - A+ (way down under the dry feed in Jan)


----------



## William Bagwell

GregB said:


> #12 - very pleased; I am liking this CVH more and more


2nd picture. Needs a sombrero


----------



## GregB

William Bagwell said:


> 2nd picture. Needs a sombrero



Since I never toss anything (being a pack rat), those well-used hallway rags make OK windbreaks.
Seem to be doing fine, I got three hives in those "serapes".


----------



## msl

GregB said:


> This two-treatment regiment I should stick to as good-enough for my purposes and the future reporting consistency.


In terms of max impact from min amount of organic compounds, I would suggest adding a winter brood less to your regiment.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> In terms of max impact from min amount of organic compounds, I would suggest adding a winter brood less to your regiment.


Hard to do MSL.
Hard to dribble much later than I already did:


> 11 units had *single *LA dribble administered on Nov 6/7 weekend


The late fall/post-brood treatment makes sense - as soon as the brood is done (but NOT much later - to stop any ongoing winter bee damage by the prowling mites).
This is also a perfect timing for the pre-winter revision - which is what I do regardless.
So this is an efficient double-whammy project - revision/treatment.

Pretty soon thereafter we have winter set in and it is just too cold to open and dribble at will (not in any planned fashion).
There could be openings in December, but rather random.
After that it is solid cold.
It is still too cold in March - but then we have generally brood already going and the brood-less opportunity is gone until later.

But also - I want to stick to this 2-treatment plan now that I already started it AND it seems to be working.
THAT is the systemic experimental approach - started it/stick with it for long enough so to find the pattern.
It may very well be sufficient and efficient - both.
IF it works well enough - that is enough for me.


----------



## msl

fair enough.. too early in the season for me... but your weather is different


GregB said:


> After that it is solid cold.


looking at your weather forecast you have several days this week that would work
32F+ 

I can't find it anywhere but I swear I saw something about dribble raising hive temps, not lowering them


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> fair enough.. too early in the season for me... but your weather is different
> 
> looking at your weather forecast you have several days this week that would work
> 32F+
> 
> I can't find it anywhere but I swear I saw something about dribble raising hive temps, not lowering them


Well, let me just say I am not going to rush through the snow mounds, take off the lids/dry feed, disturb the bees, and dribble some stuff onto them.
Especially I hate bugging the bees that are wintering very tightly and efficiently (A/A+ grade) - exactly how I want them.


One of the colonies (#11 it was) lost about 50-100 bees while I was futzing about today.
They flew out and promptly froze on the snow.
We don't need to be loosing hundreds and thousands of bees to some impromptu fly-out day (the snow is rather cold even on above freezing day).

Even if Tue/Feb 1st maybe a good day for some (questionable IMO) experimentation with unclear results, I already have other plans (and work).
Like I said, those random days mid-winter are not that useful even IF one to take the chances.

PS: to be fair - IF your winter is dry and the *ground is open (no snow!)* - that changes the calculus a lot;
even winter sun heats the open ground enough to prevent the losses on occasional warm day.


----------



## msl

GregB said:


> Well, let me just say I am not going to rush through the snow mounds, take off the lids/dry feed, disturb the bees, and dribble some stuff onto them.





GregB said:


> Especially I hate bugging the bees that are wintering very tightly and efficiently



well... you just did...
just saying... if its good enough to take the time to pop lids, check the dry feed and take pictures for the internet........................



GregB said:


> Another partial update as of 01/22/2022.
> Walked over to my #2 yard with the main VSH project - four hives there.
> 
> #1 - VSH survivor queen - bees are just now barely reaching to the dry feed; to be sure added another pancake so not to worry for another month.
> 
> #2 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - this guys are all over under the dry feed; added few more fondant pieces; pretty much dry feed is make or break in this problematic hive.
> 
> #3 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - the bees are still way down there; could hardly hear them, but there is healthy and solid hum... good. No need to be adding anymore dry feed.
> 
> #4 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - also had to listen hard to hear the bees - they are fine and just now reaching the dry feed. Added another pancake just to be sure.
> 
> Overall, 100% in this yard too.
> 
> #2 has been a question mark all along - but this has nothing to do with the mites, but rather a screwed up queen since the summer. Without mite control, this smallish cluster should be dead by now.
> 
> Pretty much by now, last decade of January, I would expect significant losses.
> January has been solidly cold, not Canada!, but good Wisconsin winter with occasional -20Cs.
> January is pretty good at weeding out problematic, weak clusters.
> 
> Clearly, the program change is working.
> It all pretty much boiled down to the mite control - not to "you are doing something wrong" as suggested by Sol. P. and some other TF experts.





GregB said:


> Like I said, those random days mid-winter are not that useful even IF one to take the chances.


to empsize



GregB said:


> The next weekend forecast looks good to drive to the remainder of the hives.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> well... you just did...
> just saying... if its good enough to take the time to pop lids, check the dry feed and take pictures for the internet........................
> to empsize


There are different levels of disturbance as we know.

One thing is to make sure there is enough dry feed and no other immediate, serious issues (e.g. moisture build-up or an animal issue).
While investigating a shrew issue, might as well take a quick picture for the Internet.
Problems at this level (e.g. lack of accessible food) will trivially kill the bees on the spot.
Fixing that is an obvious no-brainer.
Worth it driving to the hives - a planned once-per-month check.
5-6 degrees below freezing is totally workable temperature for potentially urgent servicing.

Entirely different thing is to be experimenting with acid dribble in *-4C *and with snow on the ground.
Not jumping to this level of experimentation just yet (for some unclear benefits, while potentially shooting myself into the foot).
Especially so at the very end of January when triggering random undesired defecation is becoming a real problem.
(Clarification: -4C we had on Sunday afternoon when I did my last checks).

Well, some one else is free to experiment with the acid dribbles at *-4C*. 
I'd happily look at the detailed report on that (video be great too).

BTW, I only saw the bees in two hives yesterday (out of six checked) - the rest of them were too low to even be seen or take pictures.

Really no need to be "improving" things for the bees that already winter well.
Most likely they are in good condition if wintered well this far into the the February (starting tomorrow).
Too much of a good thing............ you know.


----------



## fieldsofnaturalhoney

GregB said:


> While driving home tonight, I also decided to grade wintering of every colony for my own record and future decisions (and might as well do it here and now). As of this point in the season - A to F


What is the rubric? Whether or not they are on dry feed (seems like honey stores would come into play here)?, Size of cluster? or, ?


----------



## GregB

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> What is the rubric? Whether or not they are on dry feed (seems like honey stores would come into play here)?, Size of cluster? or, ?


Subjective opinion of the status at hand at the particular moment.

*A+* - 1)a very quiet cluster 2)still sitting down below with natural stores above them 3)at the very end of January.

Implicitly this also means that the bees are 1)healthy, 2)strong enough but excessively strong, 3)efficient with their stores and 4)are in sync with the winter in Wisconsin where 3-4 months of no defecation is to be expected.

*F* - dead bees for any reason

The rest is in somewhere between, case by case.


----------



## ursa_minor

GregB said:


> Well, some one else is free to experiment with the acid dribbles at *-4C*.
> I'd happily look at the detailed report on that (video be great too).


My concern is not just the temperature. I have thought about a dribble very early in the spring but the information seems to indicate that it is hard on the bees and the last thing I want in the winter or early spring is to damage the bees left needed to care for the new brood.

I am trying to keep my winter brood healthy from the day it emerges so I try and stay away from treatments in the fall that might damage the queen or shut down her brood rearing when I need as many winter bees as possible. This might be wrong but I would rather have a queen that shuts down or dies in spring than in the fall (honey production levels are not my first concern so if that is decreased, oh well ).

That said I did a dribble in Oct to clean up the mites. I am just trying to find a really good August treatment that will not harm the bees while brood is present.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> have thought about a dribble very early in the spring but the information seems to indicate that it is hard on the bees and the last thing I want in the winter or early spring is to damage the bees left needed to care for the new brood.


BBear,
If I do any late fall/early winter dribble - that would be lactic acid (LA).
FYI - bees don't consume LA (unlike the OA with sugar syrup which they may!) and, thus, not much of a concern with the winter bee damage.
OA with glycerin would be my second option for late fall/early winter.
But with LA being effective and harmless and cheap - why NOT use it?

Back to the MSL's points - I'd actually see no harm in doing a second LA application in November/December (for me).
November in particular gives many chances for treatments and can be counted on around here.
December is rather opportunistic case - may get lucky, but never know.
A second LA application is recommended as well (but not required).

Even a single LA application is rated at 80-90% efficacy when brood-less - thus, I decided I have done enough.
I want to see if a single hit was sufficient (which would be great - there has to be some work/rest balance for everyone).


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> I am just trying to find a really good August treatment that will not harm the bees while brood is present.


Now here I have an opinion that the very fact of August treatments with active brood is an indication a management problem.
Inefficient and laborious and a catch-up project.

You could have simply done brood-less preventive treatment anytime in June/July.
This is done while maintaining the apiary head count (which should be routine, pre-planned work anyway by anyone).

IF any mite transmission occurs in late summer - well, THAT you mop up in fall as soon as the brood is finished for the season.
That is the point of late season treatment.
The late season treatment could be a single or a double-hit (up to the bee owner).


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> Hard to do MSL.
> Hard to dribble much later than I already did:
> 
> 
> 
> 11 units had *single *LA dribble administered on Nov 6/7 weekend
Click to expand...

I need to correct/clarify this statement.
Indeed, the November around here gives sufficiently many chances for late treatments (even if one is planning for repeated late treatments)

For example, we annually run a popular 5K race on the very T-Giving day.
Often enough we race in t-shirts/shorts.
However, this particular race of 2021 was brutal - rain/snow/wind.
We returned home wet and cold and miserable that day.
Still there are nice November days available rather predictably.

It is the December that should not be counted on. Forget about it.
This season 2021 it was dry with few mild days sprinkled in - it was an unexpected bonus time for outside work.
But some other years, the snow fell sharp on the December 1st and the real winter was on.


----------



## ursa_minor

GregB said:


> You could have simply done brood-less preventive treatment anytime in June/July.
> This is done while maintaining the apiary head count (which should be routine, pre-planned work anyway by anyone).


That is my aim this season, all my colonies had a broodless period last summer, one was a swarm one was the hive that swarmed multiple times, and one was a supercedure. My knowledge of the broodless OA dribble was not, at that time, sufficient for me to recognize that I should have done one so I resorted to the Apivar I had already purchased for my first treatment. 

I hope not to be caught out a second season. Since I am a small hobby beekeeper I am seriously considering the shook swarm method of control for both the varroa and the swarming instinct and treating at that time. I have been researching the differing methods for months trying to nail down how I will choose to deal with the brood removed when I no longer want or need to make another nuc or hive. It will all depend on how large my hives are, how many frames of brood are present and if I want to take care of more. 

Caging the queen is also an experiment I am willing to try.

I am looking for info on the efficacy of the OA dribble treatment in mid summer. I know it does work for a period especially if it is broodless, but how long is it effective for? Will it take me all the way to my last dribble in Oct. or do I need to do one in late August as well? 

I guess I will have to try it this summer, then I will know. Here's hoping this next -30C cold snap will not take my bees out.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> I am looking for info on the efficacy of the OA dribble treatment in mid summer. I know it does work for a period especially if it is broodless, *but how long is it effective for?* Will it take me all the way to my last dribble in Oct. or do I need to do one in late August as well?


Well, testing out this exact thing.

My summer OA dribbles took place in June-July-early August as circumstances allowed.
Late fall LA dribble was done on November 6/7.

Clearly - I did not have any mite-bombs this fall - this much we know.
I also did not have any late fall crashes - this much already know too.

Now waiting it out - still waiting for the first dead-out to happen (which should have happen long ago).
The entire experiment has been written out and reported here for you to read.

As for me - I will not do unnecessary work (too much work already as is).
The work should be meaningful.
That is what we are trying to determine - what is really meaningful and has a good impact, and what is not meaningful (but rather is "feel good" activity and not much more beyond that).


----------



## Gray Goose

ursa_minor said:


> My concern is not just the temperature. I have thought about a dribble very early in the spring but the information seems to indicate that it is hard on the bees and the last thing I want in the winter or early spring is to damage the bees left needed to care for the new brood.
> 
> I am trying to keep my winter brood healthy from the day it emerges so I try and stay away from treatments in the fall that might damage the queen or shut down her brood rearing when I need as many winter bees as possible. This might be wrong but I would rather have a queen that shuts down or dies in spring than in the fall (honey production levels are not my first concern so if that is decreased, oh well ).
> 
> That said I did a dribble in Oct to clean up the mites. I am just trying to find a really good August treatment that will not harm the bees while brood is present.


last statement is a challange.
seems if I treat late to catch the drifting in mites I have winter bees in poor health.
If I treat early enough to get healthy winter bees, then I have surprises with late mite drift.

I may try a slow release OA sponge after treating the bees for healthy winter bees next fall, as the mite drift in they should be killed.

I have made both these mistakes, not sure 1 time in the fall will work.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> seems if I treat late to catch the drifting in mites I have winter bees in poor health.


Try Lactic next time for the late treat.
Just try 2-3 hives and compare to Oxalic.


----------



## ursa_minor

Gray Goose said:


> I have made both these mistakes, not sure 1 time in the fall will work.


For the two last years the swarming time of my hives was the first week in July. If I can time a shook swarm a week before, the queen right side would be treated at the beginning of July. Using a queen cell, the nuc with the brood should be treated in about 18 days, the middle of July. If I don't use a capped queen cell in the nuc and let them raise their own queen I would have even longer. I have been told that we need to treat the hives by the 15 of August to get healthy winter bees so the latter nuc would be broodless pretty close to that time. 

Since the shook swarm method does not have any mites under caps when they are treated the mite kill should be pretty good. I am just wondering about the rate of increase when you start with almost zero mites at the beginning of July, and if that type of method would suffice? Bearing in mind, that in a normal year, our hives up here are winding down in the middle of Sept. and another dribble would be the first of Oct. 

Three months between treatments for the first hive, two for the second.


----------



## msl

ursa_minor said:


> I am just wondering about the rate of increase when you start with almost zero mites at the beginning of July, and if that type of method would suffice?


they ruffly dubble

I do fly back splits, same idea as a shook swarm, very little mites moved
here is the impact I saw



msl said:


> Hive CF01, an IPM story
> 
> 2016 May 12 Caught as a swarm, moved to an out yard with a rabbit brush flow mid sept, nothing to harvest, Nov brood less dribble
> 
> 2017 7/25 rolled 19 per 300, 8/4 pulled 15#(not bad at all for a top bar in my area) and started a 3x weekly dribble. Followed by a 12/13 brood less dribble.
> 
> 2018 plan was to split up and requeen to get numbers up in this out yard , but my resistant bees are jerks, and the landowners house was close and my queen rearing was off to a slow start (bees were 3-4 weeks behind last year) and given I was gong to requeen most of the main yard with the queen that had the lowest mite count, I didn't have queen to spare
> so on 5/7 I did a fly away split fly away split, the brood side was split 4 ways after cells were drawn, 7/10 they had drawn and filled the hive and I pulled 13#,  8/1 rolled 3 per 300.
> 
> yes it’s a small sample but the trend is there
> last year I ran 3 overwintered sister queens side by side
> One I pulled the queen to create a brood break at main flow, one I let swarm , one was fly back split… late July the FBS had ½ the mites of the swarmed hive, and 1/3 of the brood break hive. Every 100 mites you deal with in May, is 1600 you (or the bees) don’t have to deal with in sept.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> ...........
> 
> PS: to be fair - IF your winter is dry and the *ground is open (no snow!)* - that changes the calculus a lot;
> even winter sun heats the open ground enough to prevent the losses on occasional warm day.
> View attachment 67368


This what happens when it hits +5C and sunny and the Italian bees decide to go and take some $h!t outside.
I happen to be home and just opened the lid and let them fly out and poop - else they would just poop all over the insulation and everywhere under the lid.
Also chill them off some to make them tighten up; replaced one entirely eaten sugar patty.

Well, when they fly outside, great many of them basically just freeze on the snow and die.
I have nothing better to do but walk around and try to collect and save these Italian idiots (while they $h!tted all over me).
Fingers crossed they make it to spring - this junk is prime material to discontinue.

Downgrading the #8 to *B-*

I hope all the better bees are sitting tight and don't get fooled by this random warm day on February 1st.

Imagine giving them acid dribble now - it will be dead bees all over the snow, poop all over, and unclear what would be accomplished.
Not here; not now.


----------



## GregB

Just a nice pic of the city by the frozen lake (taken yesterday).


----------



## GregB

Having a random chance today (an appt finished earlier than planned), did a quick stop by the VSH yard so to double-check it since the last check.
Will update the grading just so to equalize the ratings based on Jan-30/Feb-1 observations.
To get a solid A, the bees should not be working the dry feed yet.
---------------------------------------
#1 - VSH survivor queen - B+ (consuming the dry feed as of Feb 1, but just started)

#2 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - B (consuming the dry feed as of Feb 1)

#3 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - A+ (way down under the dry feed as of Feb 1; very quiet)

#4 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - A (just under dry the feed as of Feb 1)

#5 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - B- (consuming dry the feed as of Feb 1)
---------------------------
#7 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - C (smallish cluster and totally dependent on the insulated dry feed now; unsure if they make it - but this is due to the external factor - shrew)

#8 - random swarm queen - B- (consuming dry the feed in Jan; flew out on Feb 1st to poop - which was not ideal)

#9 - daughter of a random swarm queen - B (way down under the dry feed in Jan, BUT this is the only hive where too many bees were too active and got above the covers and perished )

#10 - random swarm queen - A+ (way down under the dry feed in Jan; excessive moisture mitigated - lousy equipment to be fixed)

#11 - daughter of a random swarm queen - B- (consuming dry the feed in Jan; mite damaged brood in fall)

#12 - daughter of a random swarm queen - A+ (way down under the dry feed in Jan)
-------------------------------
#13 - the hive of my "student" - A+ (way down under the dry feed in Jan)

The bottom line - still 100% and the outlook is optimistic for now.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> Just a nice pic of the city by the frozen lake (taken yesterday).
> 
> View attachment 67387


Which lake? We used to go fishing on Wabesa and Mendota.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> The bottom line - still 100% and the outlook is optimistic for now.


Looking good, Greg. Glad to read about your good results this Winter.


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## GregB

AR1 said:


> Which lake? We used to go fishing on Wabesa and Mendota.


AR, it is lake Monona.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Looking good, Greg. Glad to read about your good results this Winter.


Me too.
If this works, I may finally have a chance to actually select "better" bees maybe.


----------



## GregB

I normally don't come to the monthly meetings of the local beek association.
But since it is virtual now days and it is February, logged into the Zoom meeting last night.

One of the things jumped at me - virtually all new faces.
The "veterans" just don't come, even if virtually.
So the turn over is there.
A lot of 1st-2nd year beeks. 
Many of these do not become the 3rd year beeks.

Another thing was - people are having losses because no clear idea of correct treatment procedures exists.
It is all over the place, no particular rhyme or reason.

Another observation - people actually have VSH and "biter" bees on hand - it is a sexy thing to do now days (because every one reads the Internet).
This means random swarms in my area can totally be produced by some of these hives - so it is worth watching out for the worthwhile bees.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> Me too.
> If this works, I may finally have a chance to actually select "better" bees maybe.


helps to have bees left, even if the spring decision is to get all new queens.
needing bees as well in less efficient on the funding, and time vectors..

requeening the worst 1/2 does need a "1/2" left..
and you will make faster progress now as well.
no bees is start over IE no progress.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> helps to have bees left,


Exactly.
Having only 1-2 left each spring is in no way productive.
Yes, they maybe the better bees that made it.
But with only a handful left - no meaningful work can be done with that handful.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> I may finally have a chance to actually select "better" bees maybe.


Btw, MSL said this already - the "better" bee is not about just some mite-resistant bee.
It is more complex decision.

Yesterday being +5C (today is cold!) it showed very well how different colonies winter.
In the VSH yard none of the colonies even moved.
They don't need to poop on every sunny day out there.
Winter worthiness alone is a big factor to select a "better" bee.

Some of the "better" bees I had in the past were excellent in wintering department (but poor in mite department).
These would be very worthwhile bees around here (with appropriate treatment schedule).


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> I normally don't come to the monthly meetings of the local beek association.
> But since it is virtual now days and it is February, logged into the Zoom meeting last night.
> 
> One of the things jumped at me - virtually all new faces.
> The "veterans" just don't come, even if virtually.
> So the turn over is there.
> A lot of 1st-2nd year beeks.
> Many of these do not become the 3rd year beeks.
> 
> Another thing was - people are having losses because no clear idea of correct treatment procedures exists.
> It is all over the place, no particular rhyme or reason.
> 
> Another observation - people actually have VSH and "biter" bees on hand - it is a sexy thing to do now days (because every one reads the Internet).
> This means random swarms in my area can totally be produced by some of these hives - so it is worth watching out for the worthwhile bees.


As a veteran I can relate.
seems a mass of ignorance, and everyone wants , "come help me" perfact environment for Shysters
fun for the first 10 or so trips then a time waster.
And not much at the meeting, for the Veteran, it is hashing the net said this or that, then the "smart" people wanting a pulpit to preach from....

Sad state these clubs have got to. IMO
those that know do not have the time to lead. 
those who think they know it all, do not want to be lead any way.
the brand new, will not know who the right person is to follow, you do not know what you do not know.

not surprised it is all over the place.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> As a veteran I can relate.


Suppose if one has something to sell, it is beneficial that people know your face.
I figured maybe I will be able to sell 2-3 splits this summer if the things continue well.
So....


----------



## msl

GregB said:


> But with only a handful left - no meaningful work can be done with that handful.


yep


> Further research to determine the best IPM procedures to support the full expression of resistant phenotypes would move us more quickly toward ending reliance on acaricides.


Robert G Danka, Thomas E Rinderer, Marla Spivak, and John Kefuss(2013) Comments on: “Varroa destructor: research avenues towards sustainable control” 

As you well know, even if you do end up with a few good hives alive, with out the support staff of strong resource hives (whose genetics don't matter ) you can't cover losses with out importing (packages, swarms, etc) and can't propagate the good genetics in meaningful way.


----------



## david stern

msl said:


> As you well know, even if you do end up with a few good hives alive, with out the support staff of strong resource hives (whose genetics don't matter ) you can't cover losses with out importing (packages, swarms, etc) and can't propagate the good genetics in meaningful way.


I wonder if this can be somewhat overcome with a Sam Comfort type mating yard set up needing the minimal of resources. Just don't take the queens but continue to grow them out until large enough to rehive.


----------



## GregB

david stern said:


> I wonder if this can be somewhat overcome with a Sam Comfort type mating yard set up needing the minimal of resources. Just don't take the queens but continue to grow them out until large enough to rehive.


What he does is not radically different from most any main-stream management.
It is the queen-producing priority that allows to run all bunch of smaller colonies and keep them small even into the winter.
Also this decouples him from a need for "standard frame" which is needed for "standard extraction". A simple stick meets the same frame function.

Once you are free from the industry standard frame, you can do whatever the heck you want - which what Sam C. does - cheaply and efficiently.
He could raise his queens in the baskets and 5-gallon pales pulled from a dumpster just the same (except the bamboo sticks have better access to catch the queens).


----------



## david stern

GregB said:


> What he does is not radically different


True 
Not really wanting a bunch of costly mating nucs accumulating to take up space over the years one could prune fruit tree suckers to the length of the bamboo and use locally sourced scraps to make some one or two season use mating nucs and then let them revert back to the dumpster they came from.


----------



## GregB

david stern said:


> and use locally sourced scraps to make some one or two season use mating nucs and then let them revert back to the dumpster they came from.


Which I have tried and found these coolers to be working just as well as the Sam C. boxes.
You can use sticks - no problem.
I have more plans for the coolers - just concluded I want a tad bigger cooler size.


----------



## david stern

I am thinking of making mating nucs inside a langstroth deep using xps inserts.And inserting the stick into the broodnest I want to make queens from. Then, once the comb is drawn out a little and has some eggs put the stick into some sort of cell builder. Then put a cup or so of bees and two of those sticks in the mating nuc and feed.

The question is How efficient is it for increasing colony numbers.


----------



## Gray Goose

do you want me to sugar coat it? 

the cup of bees is a more advanced process, and used to get queens mated, not so much for splits., if you are asking, then IMO you are not ready for that yet.
A cup of bees can keep a mini mating Box warm not so much a 1/2 hive.

I like your Idea, can you make a special Bottom board with a divider as high as the edge, then a 1/2 entrance on each side?
if that is too much then block 1 1/2 of the entrance, well, and drill a hole and use a disc on the back of the hive box.
side by side queen returns sometime end up crossing and one queen is killed.

in each 1/2 put 3 frames of bees, shake in one more and then put a Queen cell in each. You may need to bide time until you find Queen cells or maybe get one from another keeper. A 3 frame split in a 4 or 5 frame cavity is a good starting point, with XPS one can make a side by side 4 frame double NUC box.
Optimally an entrance on each side. 
worse case split the box, and do only 1 queen hatch, then no mix ups, shift/remove the divider until they occupy the whole hive.

most definitely worth the try and the learning.

GG


----------



## david stern

Thank you, GG. I am asking. 😃 (I'm not made of glass) I've mostly used OTS method for making splits, sometimes with just one frame of brood and a frame of honey and pollen. I followed Mel Disselkoens exact recipe for several years getting mated queens after the summer solstice. This has worked well for me and plan to use OTS again this year but wondered about increasing the number of colonies this year by using a more advanced approach in addition to OTS. That said, I seem to be more cautious these days, so I am looking for advice. (I've also got grafting gear and a queen castle)


----------



## Gray Goose

david stern said:


> Thank you, GG. I am asking. 😃 (I'm not made of glass) I've mostly used OTS method for making splits, sometimes with just one frame of brood and a frame of honey and pollen. I followed Mel Disselkoens exact recipe for several years getting mated queens after the summer solstice. This has worked well for me and plan to use OTS again this year but wondered about increasing the number of colonies this year by using a more advanced approach in addition to OTS. That said, I seem to be more cautious these days, so I am looking for advice. (I've also got grafting gear and a queen castle)


the most fun and biggest gain happened to me when I got 20 deep 5 frame nucs and 10 mediums. (flat pack unassembled)
built bottom boards. and lids.
so pull the queen and do the OTS on the hive as one unit.
then at day 10 open it up and go thru slowly, 20 frames of bees can be made into 4-- 5 frame splits if you made 6 or so frames scored with the OTS method. hatch out 4 at a time rather than one.
any that do not work out combine back to the old queen or split up on the other success hatchings.
Can do 2 or 3 batches, a season, later ones to requeen lower performing hives, some to over winter.

then the frames all will work in production, NUCs , breeders and all fungible NUC to hive, hive to NUC breeder to 4 NUCs

I have 10 at 5x5 of deep and 5 medium of honey on top over wintering. for replacements.

smaller easier to handle, quick to inspect, smaller is tamer and easier to intro Queens to.
they are play things , and the big ones are production things.

GG


----------



## david stern

GG, You described well what I had done, before focusing on gardening. Typically overwintering in Deep 10x10 or Med 8x8x8 or 8x8, 5x5. This is the way I know and enjoy the most.


Gray Goose said:


> smaller easier to handle, quick to inspect, smaller is tamer and easier to intro Queens to.
> they are play things , and the big ones are production things.


----------



## GregB

david stern said:


> Then put *a cup or so of bees* and two of those sticks in the mating nuc and feed.
> 
> The question is How efficient is it for increasing colony numbers.


David,
You are confusing scaled-up queen production with the colony increase.
These are different things.

A cup of bees will never grow over the course of the summer into anything of significance - they take a long time to build up a critical mass to self-sustain.
You will need to combine 3-4 of these into a wintering unit.
This also means you have to have a plan for any extra queens you may have on hand (unless you want them to be terminated - which is wasteful).

And so why create yourself 30 mini-nucs (including the hassle, equipment, etc) to only combine them later into 10 standard nucs?
If you only grow these micro-colonies so to combine them back later (with the extra-queens lost!) - why do this?
This is not the best way to grow your yard.

More conventional and working way - just do all bunch of 2-frame splits as your starting points.
Well provisioned and strong enough up front, a 2-frame split is totally capable of developing into a wintering unit.


----------



## david stern

Thank you, Gregg and GG, for your valued input. I get these concepts entering my mind and can't always judge their worthiness. I used to be pretty experimental with a lot of stuff that ended up failing in the long run and I now submit some of these ideas for welcome criticism because I want to succeed at this. So...for 2022 I have made my decision (based in part on this advice) to stick with what has already worked for me. OTS. Thanks a lot for the reality check!


----------



## GregB

david stern said:


> I get these concepts entering my mind and can't always judge their worthiness.


Lots of good concepts exist.
Yes - it is important to realize the intent of each concept and the appropriate use-cases.

To be sure, I played for two seasons with the micro-nucs.
For me personally (small scale hobby) - they are not the way forward for now (as in - I don't care to be selling the queens for the moment and don't care of the associated hassle).

However, I want to try out larger mini-nucs (3-4 times the size of micro) - to try out controlled natural swarming to produce my own, natural queens.
Pretty much a variation of a standard nuc, but configured to be pushing the bees into controlled swarming.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> #10 has a clear ventilation problems


This should be much better.
Best to over-ventilate the lids - pretty much is my conclusion after few seasons.


----------



## bjorn

Your new regiment seems to be working out thus far. I was too late with mine, did not treat and experienced what you did for the last 5 years... terminal mite loads. I'm gathering the equipment and bringing inside. Massive amounts of mites. So I am intrigued by this OAD and LAD method. I understand the need to be bloodless since mites need to be outside brood for exposure to the treatment. So how are you creating your broodless condition? Were they done as part of or immediately following splits? Are you using a shook warm technique? I know you detailed this, but I just read this whole 1400 post string and they're all blending together now... my head is spinning a bit.
My swarms are caught in bait hives. Applying OAD to that would mean knowing exactly when the swarm arrived and applying immediately. Seems like might persuade a swarm to leave.


----------



## GregB

OK, the brood-less stuff.

Much has been said about the queen exclusion cages - these are cool and handy but not necessary.
I don't even have one made up yet; no rush.
Maybe I will make one in 2022 and test it out; or not (it is not critical).
Next....

Swarms - basically you have about* 7-10 days* with a freshly landed swarm to treat it.
Depending on a case, but the queen is not likely to be laying on the day 1 - it takes at least 2-3 days for the swarm to get settled and for the queen to put some weight back.
As long as there is no capped brood yet - treat.
I would not worry a bit about a swarm absconding due to the OAD treatment - I dribbled five of them in 2021 - no problems.
Of course, it is best when the swarm has the brood going already.
Once there are eggs and grubs in place, the swarm is locked and will not budge to hardly any disturbance.
If you blew the 7-10 day window (I did once) - then moving down the list...

Shook swarms - basically, you prep a receiving empty hive next to the mother hive.
It is best to have 2-3 fully provisioned frames with both honey and pollen + 1-2 half-built work frames.
The provision is important there will not be many forages here for a while.
Find the queen in the mother hive and place her into the receiving hive - the hard part is done.
Now just literally shake 5-6 good frames of bees directly into the receiving hive.
Once done - set this "shook swarm" where you want it to be.
Keep in mind that the older bees will return to the mother hive.
Keep the "shook swarm" compressed accordingly (I have started them as small as 3-4 frames).
Now you have about *7 days* to treat them before the first brood will be capped.
Keep in mind you will have to provision this "shook swarm/clean start" unit".
They will need help until they grow big enough, but they will be healthy and strong for the winter.
My last "shook swarm" was done at the very end of July 2021 - they are wintering very well in a Lang 6x6 setup as we speak.
This "shook swarm" deal is best to time prior to the flow as the queen-less unit can bring a good crop then.

Fly back split - ... I don't want to rehash this subject - just search the BS for details.
BUT - typically they want to have a frame of brood along with the queen.
I say it is not necessary and may actually hijack the planned treatment (just in case you don't get to treat on time and they cap it).
I place the queen onto a completely blank comb and nothing else.
However, I will shake 2-3 frames of bees directly into the fly-back hive - this to ensure there are some young bees immediately available to join the queen.
Again, you have about *7 days* to treat this hive until they cap the first brood.

Queen-less splits - both two project above will produce queen-less split parts.
So it is up to you what to do with them - keep the intact OR split further to mate more queens.
The main point here is - naturally you will have a brood-less window in the the queen-less splits in about 3 weeks.
This windows will be *7-14 days long* - depending how long it takes before the new queens will start laying.
Don't blow that window and treat.

At the season end you may even combined some of these units back.
Whatever works for you.

BUT - the main point will be - they ALL will have gone through a brood-less OA treatment at 90% efficacy and thus can be considered "clean starts".
All the while you should time these moves to utilize the flows as best as possible.
Don't just do these willy-nilly if you can but rather try to maximize the harvest too.

Late fall treatment - for you and me, by sometimes in October/November most any hive should be brood-less again.
As soon as this is a case - treat again.
This will be your second treatment of the season.
It is meant to cleanup any mite build-up that occurred since the summer "clean start" treatment.
It has been discussed enough about late summer/early fall cross-hive mite transmissions - these are real issues need to be handled (even if only preventively)
This is what the second treatment is for.
I used LAD for this and will stick to it since it is harmless to bees (maybe just slightly less effective than OAD - still plenty good).

Two treatments per hive per season.
Done.


----------



## bjorn

Thanks for the info. I'm seriously regretting my lack of intervention. Lost 7 of 7 colonies this year, 6 of 7 last year... last decade is pretty much the same. It's a case of repeating the same exercise and expecting a different result. The situation has gotten worse as more beeks pop up. There's a finite amount of flora and more bees competing for it. Im in mite central here... at least 4-5 weeks within flying radius. Robbing is brutal on weak hives. Cross contamination is a serious reality here. 
But, you did warn me. Time for some changes. The cost of education is steep sometimes.
Here's hoping for a more prosperous 2022 season... lil older, lil wiser!!


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> Thanks for the info. I'm seriously regretting my lack of intervention. Lost 7 of 7 colonies this year, 6 of 7 last year... last decade is pretty much the same. It's a case of repeating the same exercise and expecting a different result. The situation has gotten worse as more beeks pop up. There's a finite amount of flora and more bees competing for it. Im in mite central here... at least 4-5 weeks within flying radius. Robbing is brutal on weak hives. Cross contamination is a serious reality here.
> But, you did warn me. Time for some changes. The cost of education is steep sometimes.
> Here's hoping for a more prosperous 2022 season... lil older, lil wiser!!


Yes, definitely everything is situational.
People need not argue but rather determine what exactly is going on in their particular setting.
Then do what is appropriate and what makes sense.
Certainly, if one can get away with the minimal amount of work and inputs (while getting satisfactory returns) - that makes sense to do.

I can totally see how people in the Appalachia region get away with many things - the success testimonies definitely are piling up (new and repeated).
There is something regional going on there that needs better research and understanding.

For us here - this is a totally different situation.
Those Appalachian methods miserably fail here - end of story.
In that your situation sounds very familiar.

What needs to be done is - geographic areas better suited for the TF need to be identified and documented.
Certainly there are patterns of bad and good regions.
The research people need to apply some sort of GIS-based approach to compile a TF-feasibility database.


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## GregB

Update as of 02/20/2022.
Still 100%.

There is a couple of marginal cases I am ready to write them off - but they are still hanging with another month of winter to go at least.
More details later - the wintering status review and grading.


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## GregB

To get a solid A (as of 02/20), the bees should not be working the dry feed yet OR just barely using it.
---------------------------------------
#1 - VSH survivor queen - B+ (consuming the patty #1 now but plenty left - check back in 2 weeks to re-add)

#2 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - C (marginal small cluster entirely in the dry feed; added patty #2)

#3 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - A+ (still NOT on the dry feed; the bees are barely reaching the top bars; quiet cluster; these are my strongest VSH F1 colony --> A+)

#4 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - A (still NOT on the dry feed; the bees are barely reaching the top bars; quiet cluster)

#5 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - B- (consuming the patty #2 now - check back in 2 weeks to re-add)
---------------------------
#7 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - C (very small cluster entirely in the dry feed; added patty #2; at least the shrew damage was stopped by blocked entrances )

#8 - random swarm queen - B- (completely in the dry feed; added patty #3)

#9 - daughter of a random swarm queen - B (using the dry feed; added patty #3)

#10 - random swarm queen - A+ (way down under the dry feed still - very nice! I had to knock the frames to hear signs of life - really, really like this Carni-type bees).

#11 - daughter of a random swarm queen - B- (completely in the dry feed; added patty #3)

#12 - daughter of a random swarm queen - A+ (still way down under the dry feed - very nice; these are being sister bees with #11, I now wonder if the CVH hive is a positive part of the wintering equation)
-------------------------------
#13 - the hive of my "student" - A (used some dry feed but moved down again; added patty #3) 

Overall, I like how the VSH mutts are wintering - #1, #3, #4, #5
Outside of marginal cases due to poor queens (#2, #7) - I like how conservative these bees are.

I like the #10 too - also conservative wintering bees. 
I have been catching the Carni-type at this particular site for 3 years in a row now.
Hopefully, I will finally just keep them on my own (not be depending on the Uncle Joe or Auntie Jane - whoever supplies these bees to me year after year)... 

Now the #8, #9, #11, #12, #13... 
Dunno about these Italian knock-offs - way too active.
#12 is doing better, but I attribute that to the particular hive design more - I need to make more of these!
Otherwise these bees are just too spring-happy to my taste.


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## Litsinger

Good update, Greg. Sounds like you're in the home stretch. Sounds like you'll have a lot of genetics to work with this Spring.


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Good update, Greg. Sounds like you're in the home stretch. Sounds like you'll have a lot of genetics to work with this Spring.


Hope so, Russ.
As we all would like to start paying for our hobbies - I'd rather be thinking in that direction for a change.
There are few ideas...

But meanwhile, I have not forgotten what @msl said more than once - before we can start any meaningful TF efforts in some certain locations - we must learn how to keep the bees alive. Once we manage to keep the bees alive consistently, then we can start plotting out other moves. Seems to be the case in my beekeeping anarchy $h!thole. 

It'll be a shocker - managing 8-10 colonies in spring (vs. the usual 2-3), but it is heading that way.
Frankly, I don't have equipment to be both chasing the swarms and be holding back the bees on hand.
Got a pile of Styrofoam cooler boxes in garage - that is the plan B.


----------



## msl

GregB said:


> Otherwise these bees are just too spring-happy to my taste.


I used to feel that way, but I started to see the early brooders do well compared to more conservatives lines ... getting that 1 or 2nd round of brood made before the winter bees die off can be a aid in the case of mite impacted winter bees that have shorter life spans.

A also (looking back) noticed late build up tied to mite damage... I remember thinking "these caught swarms aren't building up this spring, GREAT they must be Russians/Feral!!!!"
lol nope... what do you call a TF overwintered pair of top bar hives that doesn't swarm, isn't split, and only makes about 16# of surplus honey between them?
sick...
I couldn't see it then... when you 1st see bees that are truly thriving vs just surviving its an eye opener... espicaly when you thought what you were seeing in the past was good performance

I am not sure your "dry feed" metric is sold... bees react to food, those that don't are often sick
I have had many strong hives come up to eat.. In fact I use dry feed for just that reason, to trigger and support early spring development...


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## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Got a pile of Styrofoam cooler boxes in garage - that is the plan B.


Might be able to employ your 'Dirt Cheap Beekeeping' approaches in earnest...


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## GregB

msl said:


> I used to feel that way, but I started to see the early brooders do well compared to more conservatives lines ... getting that 1 or 2nd round of brood made before the winter bees die off can be a aid in the case of mite impacted winter bees that have shorter life spans.
> 
> A also (looking back) noticed late build up tied to mite damage... I remember thinking "these caught swarms aren't building up this spring, GREAT they must be Russians/Feral!!!!"
> lol nope... what do you call a TF overwintered pair of top bar hives that doesn't swarm, isn't split, and only makes about 16# of surplus honey between them?
> sick...
> I couldn't see it then... when you 1st see bees that are truly thriving vs just surviving its an eye opener... espicaly when you thought what you were seeing in the past was good performance


Well, remember that is why ALL my bees are treated the same.
So to try to remove this "mite variable" as best as possible - then see what else is worthwhile or not.

Those bees at my #10 site seem to be coming from some Carni-yard - excellent late-blooming bees if the "mite variable" removed. This is nothing there about feral and/or Russian bees.
Just straight, basic Carni-type bees - sit out the cold early spring - then explode.
What is not to love about those bees?
Perfect bees IMO (but do require mite control).
Nothing is wrong with late starting bees (unless you are early nuc pusher OR limited to a single early flow).
Just like nothing is wrong with the late nucs/splits (never mind the traditional bee-selling songs).

Excessive winter activity is not necessarily good IF you have to keep your poop inside December-March inclusive.
Never know if a chance to poop out will come up or not - have to plan for 4 straight months around here.


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## msl

GregB said:


> Well, remember that is why ALL my bees are treated the same.


I don't see that in your management, honestly one doesn't get there till they are managing over wintered production hives the same or compareing nucs made at the same time

your comparing a overwintered hive, 5 splits from that hive, 2 swarms, 2 splits from those swarms, and some on elces hive...I don't see them all as the "same"...


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## GregB

msl said:


> I don't see that in your management, honestly one doesn't get there till they are managing over wintered production hives the same or compareing nucs made at the same time
> 
> your comparing a overwintered hive, 5 splits from that hive, 2 swarms, 2 splits from those swarms, and some on elces hive...I don't see them all as the "same"...


They are mite-treated the same - I have been saying this all along.
That is sufficient to keep them all alive.

Now every colony is free to slog through the winter however they see best - some I like, some I don't like - these issues will be addressed over the coming summer.
Meanwhile, @msl, yours and mine winters and springs are very different - keep it in mind.


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## GregB

Stopped by my VSH yard - 100% alive.
Here is how the film working - bees have their water.


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## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Stopped by my VSH yard - 100% alive.


Nice- now you are well on your way to building your bee empire! 

I'll look forward to reading about how the upcoming season develops for you.


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## crofter

A lot more encouraging than the previous annual spring reports. Amazing what a reprogramming accomplished!


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## GregB

crofter said:


> A lot more encouraging than the previous annual spring reports. Amazing what a reprogramming accomplished!


I mean I could have guessed the outcomes.
But was hoping to have something closer to what Russ has.
I am very glad (and proud!?) I had enough patience to do what I have done.

I now can freely talk about my findings in the local community - no reservations and no-nonsense - because I have done it myself and don't need to listen to anyone (regardless of their position).


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## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Nice- now you are well on your way to building your bee empire!
> 
> I'll look forward to reading about how the upcoming season develops for you.


Yep.
One possibility I came up with - doing shook swarms on-demand for people into the equipment of their choice - TB/Layens/Warre/Skeps/computer box/you name it.
I don't want to do conventional nucs - these immediately come loaded with mites and commonly fail the very first winter.
Rather I want to do on-demand clean start-ups - once someone asks me - only then I start creating a unit for them - they will have to wait a month.
I will advertise myself later in season - most likely in May/June.

Also there is this idea around here that if one not gotten their bees by June - they missed the season.
Complete non-sense.
I know I can make a unit fully prepped for wintering starting as late as late July - fully provisioned and properly treated to ensure good initial wintering.
This is something I want to offer.


----------



## ursa_minor

So glad for you GregB, your experiences have been great to read, both your struggles with TF and your current success. Now, can I get the condensed version LOL.


I think I will need to go over BS and make notes on your varroa treatments, your use of plastic in winter, and your winter prep methods. I hope, if my hives survive and all are still buzzing this morning, to incorporate both the plastic and the winter configuration to at least one next fall to check how well they do in my zone.


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## Litsinger

GregB said:


> One possibility I came up with - doing shook swarms on-demand for people into the equipment of their choice - TB/Layens/Warre/Skeps/computer box/you name it.


Good idea thinking outside the box. A lady on the other side of Kentucky has begun selling swarms from her colonies and has a fairly detailed description of her approach and value proposition (attached). Something to think about as you consider advertising.


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## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> Yep.
> One possibility I came up with - doing shook swarms on-demand for people into the equipment of their choice - TB/Layens/Warre/Skeps/computer box/you name it.
> I don't want to do conventional nucs - these immediately come loaded with mites and commonly fail the very first winter.
> Rather I want to do on-demand clean start-ups - once someone asks me - only then I start creating a unit for them - they will have to wait a month.
> I will advertise myself later in season - most likely in May/June.
> 
> Also there is this idea around here that if one not gotten their bees by June - they missed the season.
> Complete non-sense.
> I know I can make a unit fully prepped for wintering starting as late as late July - fully provisioned and properly treated to ensure good initial wintering.
> This is something I want to offer.


I made 2 for a "Mentee" last spring.
I had her give me a box and 10 frames with foundation (new) Post pulling honey from a large 2 deep I added in the frames, 3,3,4 and turned the 20 frame into a 30 frame. Easily pulled a 10 frame split in the spring, actually I did two a 6 frame and a 4 as back up. today the 6 is 3 deep and the 4 is 2 deep at her place. it works but takes more time.

have a frame price, have a few coasting to pull as needed.

good model "non Lang splits"

GG


----------



## GregB

"Working from home"...
The spring finally came (second day) and the bees can fly.
Two hives in the backyard are fine, as expected.

One of these two is a control hive - just commercial Italian bees - even with significant winter losses (partially my own blunder, actually), they are strong enough to not be concerned.
Took a picture how they lick the dry feed (NOT chew as some people think - red) and how the condensation works (see water drops - blue).










The other hive is a VSH daughter.
Even though they were a suspect (some brood damage by Varroa) - the colony is strong enough to not be concerned.
I am positive now these two units are fine.

This two cases tell me definitely now that the 2 brood-less treatments by organic acids is a good, working plan.

The next weekend will do the complete round about as I have not seen some colonies for 3 weeks now.
Pretty much this will be the final wintering report as every day forecasted forward is flying weather.
Just need to ensure everyone has carbs and very well insulated.
May add water here and there.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Pretty much this will be the final wintering report as every day forecasted forward is flying weather.


Good report, Greg. Glad you've got plenty to work with this year- you've got 'options'...


----------



## GregB

Speaking of my own blunder...
Partially this really has to do with the Italians bees, not me - but I should know better regardless.
These bees take every little thaw as if the spring is here and ready to fly and forage and all that.

On the picture - red frames are the bees; green frames - partial honey frames sitting there in storage.
Apparently, during one of the occasional thaws, some bees came out and started robbing the honey frames sitting outside the follower boards. As it happens with the thaws, often the high temps are followed with a cold snap. I suspect the bees on the green frames got stuck on them, then chilled, froze and died. There was a significant pile under the frames and some dead bees on the frames too.

So what is the lesson?
The lesson maybe that to be aware that the bees will run about the outside hive space if/when they can during the late fall/winter thaws and try to rob any honey frame stored there. They very well could get stuck outside the nest and freeze - the losses could be significant. A similar case I fixed in one hive in November and reported on that.
It is probably a bad idea - honey storage just outside the follower boards over the winter.

Now, the weather turned and honey frames just outside the follower board are welcome.
I did just that with this hive - moved the green frames right next to the follower for easier access.


----------



## GregB

Remember this hive?
The one where a shrew ate a lot of bees?
Well, the property owner just texted me - the bees are flying and rolling in her bird feeder.
So they made it. She double-checked this is "our" bees.
This being my worst colony, I am optimistic about the 100% survival - to be confirmed still but soon.

Now just reduce every colony to the max.
Ensure they have the carbs in any form as there will be few more weeks before any supporting flow.
Insulate really, really well if not already - the tops and the sides where possible.
Surely we still have cold snaps and snow ahead of us - but the spring is here.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> Speaking of my own blunder...
> Partially this really has to do with the Italians bees, not me - but I should know better regardless.
> These bees take every little thaw as if the spring is here and ready to fly and forage and all that.
> 
> On the picture - red frames are the bees; green frames - partial honey frames sitting there in storage.
> Apparently, during one of the occasional thaws, some bees came out and started robbing the honey frames sitting outside the follower boards. As it happens with the thaws, often the high temps are followed with a cold snap. I suspect the bees on the green frames got stuck on them, then chilled, froze and died. There was a significant pile under the frames and some dead bees on the frames too.
> 
> So what is the lesson?
> The lesson maybe that to be aware that the bees will run about the outside hive space if/when they can during the late fall/winter thaws and try to rob any honey frame stored there. They very well could get stuck outside the nest and freeze - the losses could be significant. A similar case I fixed in one hive in November and reported on that.
> It is probably a bad idea - honey storage just outside the follower boards over the winter.
> 
> Now, the weather turned and honey frames just outside the follower board are welcome.
> I did just that with this hive - moved the green frames right next to the follower for easier access.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 68098


I added outside frames yesterday.
Agree if honey exists out there there can be bees stuck out there.

both of the long hive have lots of honey like 6 frames (lang deep) also heavy insulation

GG


----------



## GregB

Sheesh.
I have not even advertised anything yet.
People are already pinging me about bees for sale.
Maybe the word is getting around. 
Will see.
For sure - with me they gonna have to wait - no March bees.
None of that non-sense, IF they want to have the bees that actually survive their first winter. LOL


----------



## david stern

I'm happy for you! 
I'm still contemplating Blinov type actions... I've got one pretty weak survivor that might be perfect for a trial run.

I split a colony yesterday; introduced four purchased, mated, Italian queens. If I had known how many drones were walking in it I might have tried to get them to make some early QC's and save the money. Splitting in March is daring for me; previous earliest split is early May.


----------



## Gray Goose

david stern said:


> If I had known how many drones were walking in it I might have tried to get them to make some early QC's and save the money.


the intro queens will be laying sooner, and there still is time for poor weather for mating.
IMO mated this time of the year is a fine choice.
and now you have 4 queens laying, so more brood for june splits.

GG


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## GregB

Confirmed - 100% over the 12 colonies.
Details later - will finish reviewing tomorrow.

So my OAD/LAD treatment program definitely works since every single one of the five control colonies are alive.
They should be all dead if left TF.


----------



## crofter

GregB said:


> Confirmed - 100% over the 12 colonies.
> Details later - will finish reviewing tomorrow.
> 
> So my OAD/LAD treatment program definitely works since every single one of the five control colonies are alive.
> They should be all dead if left TF.


Heck, you used to get close to 100% when you did nothing! - - - - 100% dead!

Congrats!


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> Heck, you used to get close to 100% when you did nothing! - - - - 100% dead!
> 
> Congrats!


Well, those gas bills kept piling up over the years of my TF experimentation and driving after the swarms.
At some point I need to start paying those darn bills.
Which I should be able to do (fingers crossed) - people have been lining up for the splits into their Layens, TB and even Lang hives.
At this rate I need not to even advertise. 
Rather worried how I am going to pull it off. 
Need more traps!


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Confirmed - 100% over the 12 colonies.


Good on you, Greg. Congratulations.

As Emily Dickinson so eloquently observed, 

_'Success is counted sweetest
By those who ne'er succeed.
To comprehend a nectar
Requires sorest need.'_


----------



## msl

GregB said:


> At some point I need to start paying those darn bills.
> Which I should be able to do


2 years ago I said
*referring to my II rig* 


msl said:


> the queens I sold this year payed for it, and a trip to ASU this fall to get training
> Its a fun "tale of 2 beekeepers" given we went it to winter with more or less the same numbers (19/21)
> 
> I love readying your journey and watch you grow as a beekeeper (tho you may see it as compromising)


Best of luck and I look forward to you asking your livestock for an ROI


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> 2 years ago I said
> *referring to my II rig*
> 
> 
> Best of luck and I look forward to you asking your livestock for an ROI


Well, yes - I completed my own independent fact-finding mission.
Check.
No regrets.

With the facts in hand, it made sense to stop and ask a question - why am I doing this?
What do I want to do now, given I know the facts?

Well, even being dirt cheap I still have spent too much doing this - too much to my liking.
So now, it makes sense to return the money already spent on this hobby (while still having fun).
Next chapter.


----------



## GregB

Finished the post-winter review.
Even starting tomorrow we'll have rain/snow/nightly freezes for a week ahead, but for two days bees were bringing pollen (maple, poplar, elm).
Spring is here.
Priority now is to prevent accidental starving and support the brood generation.

100% alive as I reported

To get a solid A, the bees should be sufficiently strong, have little drop, no signs of diarrhea, and no signs of winter brooding (winter brooding is bad in my book).
But also if a cluster started on a smallish side (4-5 frames) and held the numbers very well - it is still a solid A (even though it is not a classic strong colony on 7-8 frames).
Also if I see little honey consumption until now - that is a plus.
Number of frames is after the revision - I reduced most colonies to condense them (not all - just was akward in come colonies - left as is).
The VSH bees reminded me of their slightly feisty nature - those 2-3 bees would not let go of me and kept harassing all the way.
Which is not a big deal, but need to be mindful when working these puppies.
---------------------------------------
#1 - VSH survivor queen - A (5 frames)

#2 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - A (5 frames)

#3 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - A+ (7 frames; the strongest of my VSH club)

#4 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - A (6 frames)

#5 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - B (5 frames; these bees had some late brood damage - not a problem as we see; LAD must have helped)
---------------------------
#7 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - B (5 frames; actually, despite the shrew damage, the cluster size is bigger than I thought - a good surprise)

#8 - random swarm queen - B- (5 frames (wanted to do 6f then condensed to 5f as an experiment); capped brood; another pollinator bee - huge, huge drops; )

#9 - daughter of a random swarm queen - B- (7 frames; very, very significant drop - wow; capped brood(!); even though these bees went into December very strong on 10 frames - the losses are staggering; strong pollinator-bee genes)

#10 - random swarm queen - A+ (8 frames; this is the strongest hive I have - a boomer; very little drop; excellent wintering; I want to breed from this nearly black queen whatever it is)

#11 - daughter of a random swarm queen - C- (3 frames barely; this is the worst colony by far - starting pretty strong on 7 frames 70-80% of the colony dropped; dead brood - looks like they kept brooding into December OR mid-winter - terrible trait; signs of diarrhea everywhere; the only positive here - a good experiment here demonstrating that late LAD indeed works)

#12 - daughter of a random swarm queen - B+ (about a half box of the CVH hive; heavy drop; one positive here - this was a good demonstration of very good wintering in the CVH - eye-popping low honey usage - they hardly ate anything)
-------------------------------
#13 - the hive of my "student" - B (tentative B to this pollinator bees - I did not really look inside of this 5x5 Land deep stack within 10F boxes - they look fine but I did not feel like digging into them - just awkward - will do later in season)

The bottom line - overall, I like how the VSH bees looks - went into the winter smaller and incurred smaller losses - don't have the brood yet (no capped for sure).
Of the control colonies, only the #10 presently surprised - some sort of Carni mutt I think - I want to grow more of these.
All of the control colonies survived - a good indication that my treatment regiment works and I should stick to this formula.


----------



## GregB

Another side note as I was digesting what to do in the season 2022...

If one to get into the bee-selling gig - it makes sense to carry *a variety of bee lines and traits* - even the hated pollinator bees have their own rights to life (from the business point of view).
I already know some of the potential bee buyers I am talking to are complete newbies - complete zero.
Clearly, the most mild bees need to be provided to these clients.

BUT proper treatment regiment must be instructed to these people (and the execution of the instructions need to be followed up). 
As I just demonstrated that even most mite-worthless bees can survive with very good rates, not be spreading mites around, and later generate some outputs - this is a fine way to go business-wise.


----------



## GregB

Speaking of the OAD/LAD treatment I tested and happy with..
Virtually week ago I had an opportunity to talk to a group of people.

It felt as if the idea of "treating while splitting" did not cross too well.
At least some people did not seem to grasp it and kept asking the same over again.
Unsure it the idea stuck.

The key is to treat while *brood-less* - that was the key I kept repeating.
So my brood-less treatment formula is:

treat them while you split them - #1
follow up with a clean up in late fall - #2


----------



## jtgoral

GregB said:


> ...
> So my brood-less treatment formula is:
> 
> treat them while you split them - #1
> follow up with a clean up in late fall - #2


Which colony you treat is broodless when you split?


----------



## GregB

jtgoral said:


> Which colony you treat is broodless when you split?


I create brood-less queen-right splits - which I spoke about.
Thus, the split is treated within few days while it is still brood-less.

Later, the queen-less remainder is treated (one to many units).
This is done when all of the brood is hatched but new brood is not yet there.


----------



## jtgoral

GregB said:


> I create brood-less queen-right splits - which I spoke about.
> Thus, the split is treated within few days while it is still brood-less.
> 
> Later, the queen-less remainder is treated (one to many units).
> This is done when all of the brood is hatched but new brood is not yet there.


And after those colonies have brood you do not treat them anymore?


----------



## ursa_minor

GregB said:


> I create brood-less queen-right splits - which I spoke about.
> Thus, the split is treated within few days while it is still brood-less.
> 
> Later, the queen-less remainder is treated (one to many units).
> This is done when all of the brood is hatched but new brood is not yet there.


Do you do shook swarm for your queen- right split or is there any need to do that whole changing the boxes method suggested for the shook swarm? My Ukrainian hives would be pretty hard to move to do the recommended method of the shook swarm so I am wondering how to approach it. Leave the queen and take all the brood, or take the queen with bees to a new hive.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> As I just demonstrated that even most mite-worthless bees can survive with very good rates, not be spreading mites around, and later generate some outputs - this is a fine way to go business-wise.


disagree,, but many sellers of bees are doing this as well.
Keep in mind the bees you sell are spreading their drones around as well. And for those who will not or do not know how treat, these bees will be mite food.

At one time I thought like this, now I'd rather only "spread" what really works.
I think what you demonstrated is your current bees "need" to be treated.

all the best

GG


----------



## Gray Goose

ursa_minor said:


> Do you do shook swarm for your queen- right split or is there any need to do that whole changing the boxes method suggested for the shook swarm? My Ukrainian hives would be pretty hard to move to do the recommended method of the shook swarm so I am wondering how to approach it. Leave the queen and take all the brood, or take the queen with bees to a new hive.


leave the frame with Queen, move the other 5-7 to the new location. somewhat a fly back split. almost the same as a shook swarm. if the "shook" is needed, shake the queen off the last frame as well.

My big long hives have the same issues, so I move frames, the hive stays there. only Issue I have is the field bees help drive the swarm, so I need to factor that in.
one way is to move the whole set of frames a week after fly back to a new yard. (every other year I need to clean out the long hive, no bees makes it more fun)

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> disagree,, but many sellers of bees are doing this as well.
> Keep in mind the bees you sell are spreading their drones around as well. And for those who will not or do not know how treat, these bees will be mite food.
> 
> At one time I thought like this, now I'd rather only "spread" what really works.
> I think what you demonstrated is your current bees "need" to be treated.
> 
> all the best
> 
> GG


Basically, talking of some drone control here is just irrelevant and pointless.
NOT going to happen - that is the reality to cope with.
Remember, like I said already - we have high density beekeeping anarchy here.

So - in my situation ALL bees need to be treated - I have demonstrated this.
Five years of failed TF shows that sufficiently well - beyond much doubt.
I wasted too many worthy bees to show this to myself and everyone else willing to see the same.
Moving along.

What really needs to happen at my place is:
1) those running conventional bees MUST treat and MUST do it properly
2) once that is achieved (IF at all possible, a big IF) - those willing and able to go TF using proper bees - should be able to try TF and achieve some success
3) however, for as long as the beeks with the conventional bees *are not able/not willing* to implement the proper and effective treatment regiment - EVERYONE is screwed (TF or non-TF)


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> Well, in my situation ALL bees need to be treated.
> Five years of TF shows that sufficiently well.
> Moving along.
> 
> What really needs to happen at my place is:
> 1) those running conventional bees MUST treat and MUST do it properly
> 2) once that is achieved (IF at all possible, a big IF) - those willing and able to go TF - should be able to
> 3) however, for as long as the beeks with the conventional bees *are not able/not willing* to do the proper and effective treatment regiment - EVERYONE is screwed.


I have it the same so I get it.
rather not treat but rather not loose bees either.

GG


----------



## GregB

jtgoral said:


> And after those colonies have brood you do not treat them anymore?


*Two treatments* total over the course of the calendar year - this is it.

Back to:


> treat them while you split them - #1
> follow up with a clean up in late fall - #2


EVERY single colony gets ONE treatment over the course of the summer - because every single colony is sent through the brood-less period - that is the requirement.
And EVERY single colony gets late fall/early winter catch-all treatment - as every single colony should be brood-less in later fall (there are exceptions - yes - due to bad genetics - still brooding colonies can not be treated effectively).


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> disagree,,
> Keep in mind the bees you sell are spreading their drones around as well.
> 
> GG


I see your point, @Gray Goose.
Nothing is complicated there.

Let's just say - I have become more cynical - this herd of cats is impossible to control (our local anarchists/bee savers/what have you).
You know - if you can not beat them - join them.

Frankly, I am a little tired of wasting money where there are all kinds of opportunities to be making it. 
I just don't care as much anymore of these TF "breeding" efforts as it became clear that the thing just does not work in my setting and at my scale (the herd of cats will trample you anyway).
For sure I know how to keep the bees alive IF I care to do it.
Might as well keep them alive and resell (and teach people how to hopefully keep them alive too).


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> Do you do shook swarm for your queen- right split or is there any need to do that whole changing the boxes method suggested for the shook swarm? My Ukrainian hives would be pretty hard to move to do the recommended method of the shook swarm so I am wondering how to approach it. Leave the queen and take all the brood, or take the queen with bees to a new hive.


BBear,
You don't need to move your "mother hives" - they are meant to stay where they are (that is the whole point with them).

Instead, have those multi-use small hives handy (make some if don't already have them) - create the splits into them and move them around all you want.
At the season end you can always re-combine them back into the "mother hives".

You don't need to follow the classic "fly-back" model (harder to do with the unmovable, stationary hive - still possible - but need to have temp hives too).
Simply place a queen into a mobile multi-use hive - shake 4-5 frames worth of bees onto her - done.
Provision them well - goes without saying.
Compress, insulate - goes without saying.

In 2-3 days the queen should start laying - verify that (!) and treat on the spot if things progress well. 
By the summer end this will be a strong healthy nuc at your disposal.
The "mother hive" you will treat in 3 weeks (when no more brood left) - your choice if you keep the "mother ship" intact OR you want to split off 1-2-3 more nucs for queen mating.
However many queen-less units you have - treat them ALL in 3 weeks - done with the summer treatments.
Very simple.

PS: again, apply the catch-all treatment #2 at the end of the fall - across your entire collection.


----------



## ursa_minor

GregB said:


> Instead, have those multi-use small hives handy (make some if don't already have them) - create the splits into them and move them around all you want.


I am going to do just that, and am making my own supers with frames half the depth of my brood frames. I waited until I was pretty sure my bees would live, so I will have to get on that soon. The smaller CV hives look promising, and with a deep brood box, and the smaller lighter supers I might be able to handle them OK. I want the brood box of the CV's to be deep frame Ukrainians but have the same supers that fit on my original deep Ukrainians. So it looks like they will be around 14X14" since two of these will fit on top of the existing Ukrainians without adjustments.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> I am going to do just that, and am making my own supers with frames half the depth of my brood frames. I waited until I was pretty sure my bees would live, so I will have to get on that soon.* The smaller CV hives look promising,* and with a deep brood box, and the smaller lighter supers I might be able to handle them OK. I want the brood box of the CV's to be deep frame Ukrainians but have the same supers that fit on my original deep Ukrainians. So it looks like they will be around 14X14" since two of these will fit on top of the existing Ukrainians without adjustments.


Like I have been saying, I have a fleet of multipurpose boxes (originally meant to be swarm traps - until I realized much wider utility of these).
The best choice ever - I took the time making these.
I even like just sitting on such a hive while working - perfect height for me.


----------



## GregB

Some time back I made this post regarding saving the weak colonies.
In fact, I use this exact setup for all of my colonies in winter - just a pro-active setup I do traditionally around X-Mas time.

Some bees survive because of it.
Others take advantage of it because they can (even though don't really depend on it).
Others hardly care until spring comes (and start hitting on the dry feed when winter is winding down).

All in all - the bees really like this setup in late winter/early spring.
No matter how strong they are - all of my bees now chomp away at the dry feed under the plastic (even though they have plenty of honey on the side frames).
This probably has to do with the strategic location of the food - just above of the location where they are (or will) raise their first brood.








Dry feed - saving weak colonies


The subject of dry feed is a hot again - typical for this time a year. Use it? Not use it? Bad? Good? OMG, dry sugar is not natural!.. Etc Regardless of the opinions, to me dry feed is essential in saving weak clusters. Once the cluster falls beyond some critical level (1-2 frames?), it no...




www.beesource.com





(One notable exception - the CVH hive - they never reached the dry feed yet (checked on March 20th) - still a box full of honey above their heads - this has been a phenomenal experience and a confirmation of what has been said about the CVH hives - excellent honey efficiency).


----------



## mill-j

@GregB I'm curious if your previous TF beekeeping efforts are partly the reason for great success with the first year using treatment again. Around here there used to be a distinct line between TF and Non-TF. More recently, not so much. I've seen TF beekeeper lose pretty much 100% and I've seen "do it to the T" beeks loose pretty much 100% after years of very good success with treating. Sometimes the TF guys have better luck, sometimes vice versa is true. 

It'll be interesting to see how this works out for you in the coming years.


----------



## Gray Goose

ursa_minor said:


> I am going to do just that, and am making my own supers with frames half the depth of my brood frames. I waited until I was pretty sure my bees would live, so I will have to get on that soon. The smaller CV hives look promising, and with a deep brood box, and the smaller lighter supers I might be able to handle them OK. I want the brood box of the CV's to be deep frame Ukrainians but have the same supers that fit on my original deep Ukrainians. So it looks like they will be around 14X14" since two of these will fit on top of the existing Ukrainians without adjustments.


usra,
I ended up buying a couple flat packs of 5 frame deep NUC boxes.
Was a big leap in queen rearing attempts, and fun, the little ones are great for splits, packages, small swarms, and easy to work.
Last year I ran out of the little boxes, may need more 

they are great fun
worth the try IMO

GG


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> #8 - random swarm queen - B- (5 frames (wanted to do 6f then condensed to 5f as an experiment); capped brood; another pollinator bee - huge, huge drops; )
> 
> #9 - daughter of a random swarm queen - B- (7 frames; very, very significant drop - wow; capped brood(!); even though these bees went into December very strong on 10 frames - the losses are staggering; strong pollinator-bee genes)
> 
> #10 - random swarm queen - A+ (8 frames; this is the strongest hive I have - a boomer; very little drop; excellent wintering; I want to breed from this nearly black queen whatever it is)
> 
> #11 - daughter of a random swarm queen - C- (3 frames barely; this is the worst colony by far - starting pretty strong on 7 frames 70-80% of the colony dropped; dead brood - looks like they kept brooding into December OR mid-winter - terrible trait; signs of diarrhea everywhere; the only positive here - a good experiment here demonstrating that late LAD indeed works)
> 
> #12 - daughter of a random swarm queen - B+ (about a half box of the CVH hive; heavy drop; one positive here - this was a good demonstration of very good wintering in the CVH - eye-popping low honey usage - they hardly ate anything)
> 
> #13 - the hive of my "student" - B (tentative B to this pollinator bees - I did not really look inside of this 5x5 Land deep stack within 10F boxes - they look fine but I did not feel like digging into them - just awkward - will do later in season)


OK, here are few questions:


> Brooding late into winter implies the queen doesn't know its winter or has ancestors who originated in warmer climes.
> Do you raise your own?
> What type?
> What makes some bees 'worthless?"


Let's look at my "control group" - #8, #9, #10, #11, #12, #13 (I did not open the #13 to look closely and have not comments other than they are alive and viable).

The most significant descriptor of this group - these are ALL randomly caught swarms (meaning random queens)
These queens are mostly common package queens as the packages are the predominant swarm sources in my area.
All but #10 appear to be of Italian descent and/or pollinator bees - typical reddish queens - yellowish bees (more or less) - very docile - heavy brooders - large clusters go into the winter.

With the *notable exception of #10*, the rest of the group are NOT great at wintering in my Wisconsin setting (they will survive OK, as I demonstrated - *with proper care*). But are they good at wintering here? Nope.

This is to compare to the VSH group (which is my test group):

compact winter clusters
very conservative on food consumption
slower starters in spring
no winter brood
winter cluster attrition is not as pronounced/not significant
very quiet during the winter - not active - don't jump at every little thaw

The poor wintering indicators are:

very significant cluster attrition over the winter for any reason - #8, #9, #11, #12 - all of these started the winter as strong/very strong and lost 40-60% percent of the cluster (this should not happen); #11 lost 70-80% of the cluster (terrible).
too active while wintering - at every opportunity they break the cluster and start exploring the entire hive - which results in the bees getting stuck on the outside frames or crawling into the "attic" and above insulation - subsequently, these remote bees get chilled/freeze/die - this is contributing into the excessive winter attrition (above)
winter brooding (either too later or too early) - notably #11 was terrible at that - I found significant amount of dead capped brood - the last time I opened this hive in mid-November when applying LAD (they still had brood at the time and, thus, undermined my treatment effectiveness) - evidently #11 kept brooding for even longer - the end result of such late brooding was untimely wear of the winter bees and diarrhea due to being over-filled with feces and higher mite damage due to not very effective LAD treatment
store consumption is somewhat higher - this one depends, however - #12 ate very, very little BUT I attribute this to the experimental CVH hive itself (testing in progress there).


----------



## GregB

mill-j said:


> @GregB I'm curious if your previous TF beekeeping efforts are partly the reason for great success with the first year using treatment again. Around here there used to be a distinct line between TF and Non-TF. More recently, not so much. I've seen TF beekeeper lose pretty much 100% and I've seen "do it to the T" beeks loose pretty much 100% after years of very good success with treating. Sometimes the TF guys have better luck, sometimes vice versa is true.
> 
> It'll be interesting to see how this works out for you in the coming years.


So I have been pushing this idea for a long time - the TF success rate is very very much a function of your localized situation (local population, migratory status, climate, etc .... AND - localized changes over time also).

Nothing new here, actually.
Most everyone will readily repeat the overused cliche - all beekeeping is local - and yet many people fail to see the practical implications of what they just said (yeah! - all beekeeping is local - this includes TF implications too - duh).

So, as this becomes more and more obvious - there are specific geographic places across the country where TF seems to have higher chances of being successful and sustainable.
This is NOT a binary T/F situation - readily accepted and preached by some (in either camp - does not matter which - this entire TF vs. T holy war, just sad).
This is rather a *probabilistic situation.*

Everyone should asses their own TF success probability and go from there.
I have done it and demonstrated that in my case TF has very poor success probability - BUT this is NOT a final call for everyone and everywhere and forever.
Far from it.


----------



## GregB

mill-j said:


> @GregB I'm curious if *your previous TF beekeeping efforts are partly the reason* for great success with the first year using treatment again.


I think so.
Basically, you have good opportunity to become very resourceful and good at keeping the bees alive when they are continuously dying by the mites.
I actually recommend this approach IF you can afford it (one way to afford it - learn to catch free bees).

I suppose this is a personal trait. 
Some people quickly give up and just drop the ball completely OR quickly switch into treating (instead of taking the time to observe).
I am a slow learner and stubborn if you will - I do try and re-try lots of things and stay at it - that takes longer. 
Some bone-headed Northern European genetics I recon. LOL


----------



## A Novice

Greg.
Happy to see your success this winter.
Be a bit careful, though. You are correct that treating is effective, and that if you can do it as little as possible that is obviously preferable. It is possible though that your success with this protocol will be somewhat variable going forward. It isn't (quite) time to write your book yet.
I like your protocol, and I think I might try it myself. However I'm not convinced it will be entirely sufficient in my situation. It seems my mites become a problem mid-summer in any case, even with effective mite treatments in spring. I am assuming your splits are being done in may, prior to swarming.


----------



## GregB

A Novice said:


> Greg.
> Happy to see your success this winter.
> *Be a bit careful, though.* You are correct that treating is effective, and that if you can do it as little as possible that is obviously preferable. It is possible though that your success with this protocol will be somewhat variable going forward. *It isn't (quite) time to write your book yet.*
> I like your protocol, and I think I might try it myself. However I'm not convinced it will be entirely sufficient in my situation. It seems my mites become a problem mid-summer in any case, even with effective mite treatments in spring. * I am assuming your splits are being done in may, prior to swarming.*


Novice, three points:

1) Once I replicate the same for *four more seasons* (making it *five *in total) - I very well may write a book.  but whew.... too much work and is it really worth it? What revolutionary things will be in that book that were not said already?

2) Even success rate of 80-90% is very good to excellent; 100% is not even required (it is just more a like statistics in football - good on a resume).
(for example, if I lost that one very marginal unit (#11), I'd be totally fine with it - now they only wasted honey and also pooped all over the frames - them still staying alive is hardly worth it to me - I could have harvested the honey and be better off)

3) I split whenever it is needed and/or is convenient to me (no particular program as in - split in May or die).
Anytime during June/July frame is fine (I have never split in May yet and don't see a particular need for this).
For example, July 4th holiday is popular benchmark with me for doing bee-related projects (e.g. splitting, what not).
A matter of fact, I want the splits done on various time frames so to create some variety - season to season you never know which splits will be the most successful for that year.


----------



## AR1

A Novice said:


> Greg.
> . I am assuming your splits are being done in may, prior to swarming.


I am about 90 miles due south of Greg, and I wait to split until I see drones flying. That is end of May here, and probably early June where Greg is. I could feed the heck out of them and probably push it earlier.


----------



## GregB

A Novice said:


> I am assuming your splits are being done *in may, prior to swarming.*


This maybe a function of the equipment, btw.
People keep talking of this May swarming - a popular subject.
I never see the May swarming problem with my long hives.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> I could feed the heck out of them and probably push it earlier.


One could, indeed.
Granted I already promised some splits to be done in June - I very well could do something of the sort if I see a need (but this would be a business-driven decision).


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> This maybe a function of the equipment, btw.
> People keep talking of this May swarming - a popular subject.
> I never see the May swarming problem with my long hives.


I use Lang. 

Have not been at this many years, but the earliest swarm I have seen was in the last few days of May.

I am feeding a bit this year, even put a protein supplement on, so we'll see what happens.


----------



## GregB

I am so very glad to having a chance to check all the bees and add fondant/honey where it was needed.
March 21/22 was my last chance to do it for another 1-2 weeks looking forward.
It is again nothing but cold/rain/snow/cold/..... for as far as the forecast can see.
Typical March madness in WI.


----------



## GregB

March has been crappy and will be crappy through the end - typical here.
Today is snow on the grown and temps are below freezing (and very strong windchill).
Pretty much all the maple bloom that opened just for a couple days - is not toast.
Just how it is in WI - March is really just winter with few spring days sprinkled in.
Also March is the critical month where lots of losses take place - the most painful ones.
Fingers crossed.

This is how the winter went this year - pretty typical.
Green ovals - the potential flying days.
December/January/February - solid no flying winter (single days there don't really count much).
November is the last predictable chance to get the relief. 
March is the first predicable chance to get the relief.
So the good winter bees around here should be able to hold the poop for 3-4 months and just hold steady between November and March.


----------



## AR1

Very similar to here. Next warm day is predicted to be next Wednesday. Some days down to 20. So yeah, hard on the bees trying to brood heavily. In the past I have made the mistake of taking off the top insulation too early. Just like I plant my garden in March and nothing survives but lettuce and other greens!


----------



## crofter

I have been guilty of the early uncovering almost every year; laziness and the hodge podge of gang wrapping etc. This year I left a central access hole about 9 inches square that I can view thru or add feed and aside from a pair of stacked and side by side nucs, each colony is separately wrapped. 

I am having the same week long cold dip then I may put some top feed on them for insurance; might not need it but it would be stupid to lose some now for the price of a $2 bag of sugar in each one.


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> it would be stupid to lose some now for the price of a $2 bag of sugar in each one.


This is one of the common stories told - year after year.
People keep assuming that IF the hive is heavy then they are OK.
In actuality, the placement of the feed with respect to the cluster is the #1 priority, NOT that honey is present "somewhere" within the cavity.


----------



## GregB

Tonight we are to have -8C/16F.
No flying weather ahead as far as forecast can see - cold/rain/snow.











Pretty much all hives are setup like so - reduced anywhere from 3 to 7 frames and emergency feed on the frame tops.
Then a pile of various insulation on the top.
I really posted this picture because I wanted to show my hodge-podge collection of frames - anything goes - bees don't mind.


----------



## GregB

Just to complete the picture of March madness in WI.
About 4-5 flying days for the entire month - essentially, this is a winter month.


----------



## GregB

April 1st.
Snow on the ground and mild freeze.
Maybe spring will finally start?


----------



## AR1

Drone Brood Homogenate as Natural Remedy for Treating Health Care Problem: A Scientific and Practical Approach


Drone brood homogenate is a little-known bee product used in folk medicine to treat various health problems. It is a very nutritious milky substance with high content of nutrients: proteins, lipids, fatty acids, carbohydrates, vitamins (A, B, E and D), and minerals. Moreover, when collected on...




www.mdpi.com





Drone brood homogenate as a health food.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Drone Brood Homogenate as Natural Remedy for Treating Health Care Problem: A Scientific and Practical Approach
> 
> 
> Drone brood homogenate is a little-known bee product used in folk medicine to treat various health problems. It is a very nutritious milky substance with high content of nutrients: proteins, lipids, fatty acids, carbohydrates, vitamins (A, B, E and D), and minerals. Moreover, when collected on...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mdpi.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Drone brood homogenate as a health food.


Good find; thanks!

I got a jar of honey/pressed drone brood mix in a freezer.
Have been looking for a good excuse to get started on it.


----------



## William Bagwell

GregB said:


> Good find; thanks!
> 
> I got a jar of honey/pressed drone brood mix in a freezer.
> Have been looking for a good excuse to get started on it.


Ah, so your going to be the team beta tester 

"The larvae can be stored for up to 6 days at a temperature of −2 °C, and for up to 10 months at −18 °C without losing their biological properties" −18 °C is 0° F which is in the home freezer range so doable without spending big bucks.

Remember a mention of this a few weeks back but did not have time to follow the link. So second the thanks for bringing it up AR1!


----------



## GregB

William Bagwell said:


> Ah, so your going to be the team beta tester
> 
> "The larvae can be stored for up to 6 days at a temperature of −2 °C, and for up to 10 months at −18 °C without losing their biological properties" −18 °C is 0° F which is in the home freezer range so doable without spending big bucks.
> 
> Remember a mention of this a few weeks back but did not have time to follow the link. So second the thanks for bringing it up AR1!


I am rather a regular user - on and off.

Have been for years since I got back into the bees again.
It is just you don't use the stuff willy-nilly - it can be potent AND it is not readily available to just waste it similar to some cheap honey.

A good indication to use it if you feel down/low energy/low male function/etc. It is a good pickup supplement.

When mixed with honey (become similar to cloudy, crystallized honey), it can stay in the freezer for long time. But might as well rotate it out annually and make some fresh stuff every summer.


----------



## AR1

That journal is open access, lots of good bee stuff there if you search. 

By the way, I was looking there because my daughter's advisor wants her to publish her research in one of the affiliated journals..


----------



## AR1

My first experience with bees was in Central America, in the 1980s. I wasn't part of that project, but the US gov was trying to set up beekeeper cooperatives to encourage people to get ready for the imminent arrival of the African bees (total failure). I got to assist a few times in manipulating the bees. Anyway, relevant to this conversation, eating drones was pretty common. Just pluck them off the landing boards or frames and munch. I didn't, but was told they were sweet.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Anyway, relevant to this conversation, eating drones was pretty common. Just pluck them off the landing boards or frames and munch.


LOL
Wow.
Do they spit any hard skins and the wings out? 

I am not that advanced in drone eating, not even close.
But for sure, the pressed "drone milk" mixes well with honey and at that rate it is just, essentially, honey with some flavor (some call it a nutty flavor).
I suspect it is significantly more nutritious too (the drone brood).


----------



## GregB

Pressed drone larvae/honey mix.
Straight from the freezer.


----------



## Litsinger

Doesn't look too bad! I'd give it a try if offered.


----------



## jtgoral

I would need 2 shots of vodka before and 2 after, sorry


----------



## ursa_minor

What is it about worms and larvae that trigger the 'ick' factor.


----------



## GregB

jtgoral said:


> I would need 2 shots of vodka before and 2 after, sorry


Do you drink vodka before and after eating a hot-dog? 
(Ignore if you don't eat the hotdogs - not everyone eats them - I stopped years ago).

BTW - there used to be a Polish place here in town (now closed) - we did go there to get some Polish sausages. They seemed authentic enough to me. 

I do like using hot dogs as a good counter-example.
Many people gobble up those hot dogs without a second thought - one of the nastiest and unhealthiest things in existence. And yet!.... 

Add enough salt and pepper - everything will be tasty enough, I figure.
If the dogs are free, they will come for the seconds.


Anyway, food appeal is a relative term.
I did enjoy those spicy grass-hoppers from Mexico some years ago - highly recommend.

That sourdough bread starter is nasty looking and rotten smelly - I restart it twice weekly when baking my home bread.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> Do you drink vodka before and after eating a hot-dog?
> (Ignore if you don't eat the hotdogs - not everyone eats them - I stopped years ago).


Maybe time for a thread on weird foods one has eaten...?


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> ...............
> Priority now is to prevent accidental starving and support the brood generation.
> 
> 100% alive as I reported
> 
> ...............
> #8 - random swarm queen - B- (5 frames (wanted to do 6f then condensed to 5f as an experiment); capped brood; another pollinator bee - huge, huge drops; )
> 
> #9 - daughter of a random swarm queen - B- (7 frames; very, very significant drop - wow; capped brood(!); even though these bees went into December very strong on 10 frames - the losses are staggering; strong pollinator-bee genes)
> .....................
> #11 - daughter of a random swarm queen - C- (3 frames barely; this is the worst colony by far - starting pretty strong on 7 frames 70-80% of the colony dropped; dead brood - looks like they kept brooding into December OR mid-winter - terrible trait; signs of diarrhea everywhere; the only positive here - a good experiment here demonstrating that late LAD indeed works)


Another monthly update.
100% alive.

Notes:

this is a very hard and late spring 2022 - mid-April and we still have freezing nights, cold windy days, and very few flying chances - meaning the fresh pollen intake is low;
emergency food is a must ELSE risk of loosing colonies to starvation is very real - today I did my round with the #1 priority being emergency food distribution - for some colonies it was very timely (in fact, one can loose excellent, strong colonies to starvation now without emergency rations);
some colonies on the control side are rather disappointing me by now - #11 is hanging in here but barely - #9 shows precipitous drop and also very weak - #8 is also not too great with high attrition - all of these are pollinator-type bees


----------



## GregB

Thirsty bees.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> Another monthly update.
> 100% alive.
> 
> Notes:
> 
> this is a very hard and late spring 2022 - mid-April and we still have freezing nights, cold windy days, and very few flying chances - meaning the fresh pollen intake is low;
> emergency food is a must ELSE risk of loosing colonies to starvation is very real - today I did my round with the #1 priority being emergency food distribution - for some colonies it was very timely (in fact, one can loose excellent, strong colonies to starvation now without emergency rations);


Similar here, and also dry, close to drought. 

My worry is not emergency food per se, which is easy to provide, but that the bees will be brooding heavily and not able to reach the food in the cold conditions.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Similar here, and also dry, close to drought.
> 
> My worry is not emergency food per se, which is easy to provide, but that the bees will be brooding heavily and *not able to reach the food in the cold conditions.*


Yes - hence the emergency food placement *directly *above the cluster (at least above the frames in the insulated "warm bubble").
For some weak clusters that maybe the life/death solution.
Honey frames/spans too far off become unreachable. 

Tomorrow I am teaching a grafting/pruning class outside.
At least we don't have rain/snow.
Otherwise it will be less than pleasant.


----------



## GregB

So here is a "wanna-be" beekeeper who lives three houses over that way from me.

Again, this year he asked if I can get him the bees.
I said "OK, I will make you a hive. But it will be in June - be patient."
I honestly meant to set him up well for the upcoming winter.

Well, the *inpatient *"wanna-be" got himself a nuc elsewhere (likely some southern import) and now wants my help with it. 
Well,........ I have my own projects and plans to attend to.

Meanwhile we have a terrible spring (as I have been reporting) and I am not sure if the "wanna-be" was told to ensure his new bees do not starve.
Highly doubt it.
But even if told, the "wanna-be" most likely never registered that.
The guy is a total zero with a very short attention span and a poor learner (NOT in general sense as he is a lawyer) - he needs his hand held at all times.

Will probably find time over the weekend to check him out to at least ensure the bees make it into the summer (IF still alive).

But, frankly, I am not excited to provide him with the bees (really never was).
One of those "wanna-be" beekeepers who are best to be avoided.
Hopefully, I will get out of this business - he got his bees already and now let me out of here!


----------



## drummerboy

GregB said:


> LOL
> Wow.
> Do they spit any hard skins and the wings out?
> 
> I am not that advanced in drone eating, not even close.
> But for sure, the pressed "drone milk" mixes well with honey and at that rate it is just, essentially, honey with some flavor (some call it a nutty flavor).
> I suspect it is significantly more nutritious too (the drone brood).


Drones are best consumed as larva. Pop them out, fry em up with a little oil sautéed with onions, of course.


----------



## drummerboy

GregB said:


> So here is a "wanna-be" beekeeper who lives three houses over that way from me.
> 
> Again, this year he asked if I can get him the bees.
> I said "OK, I will make you a hive. But it will be in June - be patient."
> I honestly meant to set him up well for the upcoming winter.
> 
> Well, the *inpatient *"wanna-be" got himself a nuc elsewhere (likely some southern import) and now wants my help with it.
> Well,........ I have my own projects and plans to attend to.
> 
> Meanwhile we have a terrible spring (as I have been reporting) and I am not sure if the "wanna-be" was told to ensure his new bees do not starve.
> Highly doubt it.
> But even if told, the "wanna-be" most likely never registered that.
> The guy is a total zero with a very short attention span and a poor learner (NOT in general sense as he is a lawyer) - he needs his hand held at all times.
> 
> Will probably find time over the weekend to check him out to at least ensure the bees make it into the summer (IF still alive).
> 
> But, frankly, I am not excited to provide him with the bees (really never was).
> One of those "wanna-be" beekeepers who are best to be avoided.
> Hopefully, I will get out of this business - he got his bees already and now let me out of here!



"Bee curious, not judgmental"


----------



## GregB

drummerboy said:


> "Bee curious, not judgmental"


I am "slightly" concerned that whoever provides the bees to this guy will be "at fault" for the dead bees (almost certain eventuality).
On the other hand - I don't mind to be the paid "bee manager" long-term - but then I need to be the one making the "bee decisions" (and let the lawyers do what they do best).


----------



## drummerboy

"Caveat Emptor" (Let the buyer beware) 

Our control over anything or anyone is usually an unfortunate illusion...for all parties.


----------



## GregB

drummerboy said:


> "Caveat Emptor" (Let the buyer beware)
> 
> Our control over anything or anyone is usually an unfortunate illusion...for all parties.


Well, certainly so but only to a degree. 

While no one in the entire humanity has ANY control over the pending geological events and the solar system future - I certainly have 99% control over my lunch box contents (fish, rice, and potatoes).
And certainly, I have 99% control over contents of this particular post I just typed (assuming the website does not go down OR the admin does not delete it).
So never say never.


This being said, I will practice limited and targeted organic acid treatments this summer and pretty sure this will *control *my mite situation pretty well for yet another season.

So yes - those philosophical wits look good on paper, indeed.
In real life we do what we can towards our current goals - for as long as we still have those goals on the table.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> is a lawyer


ok understood


GG


----------



## GregB

drummerboy said:


> *Drones are best consumed as larva. * Pop them out, fry em up with a little oil sautéed with onions, of course.


Right.
This is what I press - the drone larvae - the most nutritious stage is right after (or right before) they cap it.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> ok understood
> 
> 
> GG


He is a good guy and we have been the original residents on our newly built street - so we talk often on few common subjects.

But I stay away from giving him advice regarding his excessive "love" for the the trees.
How about *10+ full size trees* planted onto the *0.25 acre *suburban lot around the house? 

And now the bees.


----------



## drummerboy

"Humans seek to satisfy their desires with the least amount of exertion" - Henry George (Americas Greatest Economist)


----------



## jtgoral

GregB said:


> He is a good guy and we have been the original residents on our newly built street - so we talk often on few common subjects.
> 
> But I stay away from giving him advice regarding his excessive "love" for the the trees.
> How about *10+ full size trees* planted onto the *0.25 acre *suburban lot around the house?
> 
> And now the bees.


Hmmm...

I have 10 grape vines, 4 apple trees, 2 pears, 2 Bush Apricot, 2 tart cherries, 4 plum treas, 1 sweet cherry, >4 black currants, > 4 gooseberries, red and white currants, 2 aronias, 1 peach tree, 3 spruce trees, hops climbing in 5 places, 13 hives on 50x150 yard.

And the house + shrubs I did not mention.


----------



## GregB

jtgoral said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> I have 10 grape vines, 4 apple trees, 2 pears, 2 Bush Apricot, 2 tart cherries, 4 plum treas, 1 sweet cherry, >4 black currants, > 4 gooseberries, red and white currants, 2 aronias, 1 peach tree, 3 spruce trees, hops climbing in 5 places, 13 hives on 50x150 yard.
> 
> And the house + shrubs I did not mention.


Again - *10+ full size trees. *

jtgoral, I have 5 apple trees, 1 pear, 2 plums, 1 peach, 10-20 `black currants, ~10 Canadian Huskap, 5 Aronias, 50 meters of fully grown Privet hedge, 1 mountain ash,........ (should I continue?).

But I still have only nominal *one full-size tree (a triple birch set). *- this is only nominally full-size tree.
See the difference?

I have no safe space for *full-size trees* (i.e. oaks, maples, etc) - not to endanger the main structure.
Really a no-brainer for dense 0.25 acre/lot suburban building area.
Full-size trees and dense residential areas do not mix well IF any reasoning is applied.

So yes, he never asked me and I have no business telling people what to do - but in some # of years that property will be a "disaster waiting to happen".


----------



## jtgoral

GregB said:


> Again - *10+ full size trees. *
> 
> jtgoral, I have 5 apple trees, 1 pear, 2 plums, 1 peach, 10-20 `black currants, ~10 Canadian Huskap, 5 Aronias, 50 meters of fully grown Privet hedge, 1 mountain ash,........ (should I continue?).
> 
> But I still have only nominal *one full-size tree (a triple birch set). *- this is only nominally full-size tree.
> See the difference?
> 
> I have no safe space for *full-size trees* (i.e. oaks, maples, etc) - not to endanger the main structure.
> Really a no-brainer for dense 0.25 acre/lot suburban building area.
> Full-size trees and dense residential areas do not mix well IF any reasoning is applied.
> 
> So yes, he never asked me and I have no business telling people what to do - but in some # of years that property will be a "disaster waiting to happen".


I guess he likes the shade and living in a forest. You get tornados in your area, do you? I saw trees planted by the village along the street falling on the houses during a tornado....


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> Again - *10+ full size trees. *
> 
> jtgoral, I have 5 apple trees, 1 pear, 2 plums, 1 peach, 10-20 `black currants, ~10 Canadian Huskap, 5 Aronias, 50 meters of fully grown Privet hedge, 1 mountain ash,........ (should I continue?).
> 
> But I still have only nominal *one full-size tree (a triple birch set). *- this is only nominally full-size tree.
> See the difference?
> 
> I have no safe space for *full-size trees* (i.e. oaks, maples, etc) - not to endanger the main structure.
> Really a no-brainer for dense 0.25 acre/lot suburban building area.
> Full-size trees and dense residential areas do not mix well IF any reasoning is applied.
> 
> So yes, he never asked me and I have no business telling people what to do - but in some # of years that property will be a "disaster waiting to happen".


How big a lot are you on there? I'm all in for putting as many edibles as possible in the towns and city's. Maybe they will be more resistant to supply chain issues. Way to go greg! We have planted many fruit trees, nut trees, some berries, etc. and a whole lot more to come Lord-willing, but were not on a quarter acre lot anymore so no where near as dense .


----------



## BEE J

jtgoral said:


> I guess he likes the shade and living in a forest. You get tornados in your area, do you? I saw trees planted by the village along the street falling on the houses during a tornado....


I think we should be careful about planting full sized trees in an area like that! Hopefully, the neighbor has already thought through that.


----------



## GregB

jtgoral said:


> I guess he likes the shade and living in a forest. You get tornados in your area, do you? I saw trees planted by the village along the street falling on the houses during a tornado....


Yes, we do get tornados and winds every year.
Been lucky so far and hope for the same in the future.

Maybe he is thinking of living under the canopy under those majestic trees. Fine.
I see the tree limbs falling and folding the house down under a tornado or even strong straight wing.
BUT - what normally goes under radar - what the roots of the full size trees may do to the foundation. I don't recommend experimenting with that.
But hey, it is his property.
Most likely he will sell it to the unsuspecting new owners before anything serious happens.
Oh well.


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> How big a lot are you on there?


0.25 acre are normal size lots in the sub..
Tomatoes do great in my full-sun veggie garden (red line).
Bees are hiding in the small fruit orchard (yellow line).


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> 0.25 acre are normal size lots in the sub..
> Tomatoes do great in my full-sun veggie garden (red line).
> Bees are hiding in the small fruit orchard (yellow line).
> 
> View attachment 68758


It looks great, Greg! I'm sure it would look even better from on the ground! We used to live on the standard quarter acre lot too. I'm glad we share the gardening/orchardist/beekeeping lifestyle. I'm sure their would be many interesting things we would talk about if I ever got to talk to you in person. I can't wait to get the watermelon seeds planted... only a few weeks!!


----------



## GregB

As most of you know, April 22nd was the Earth Day.

Today we went out and did our little part in picking up the *Feces of the Civilization. *This is our annual community gig that we do every spring.

I say the beekeepers, being the responsible people that we are, should do our part however small it may be.


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> As most of you know, April 22nd was the Earth Day.
> 
> Today we went out and did our little part in picking up the *Feces of the Civilization. *This is our annual community gig that we do every spring.
> 
> I say the beekeepers, being the responsible people that we are, should do our part however small it may be.
> 
> View attachment 68778


Me and my brother sometimes collect some cans that are on the sides of roads near are property. We may make only a few bucks over time, but hey, a penny saved is a penny earned! It's also nice to clean things up.


----------



## HaplozygousNut

Why is it that people say picking up trash helps the environment? It is as if people just want their streets to be neat and clean, and saying that it is helping the environment as an excuse to get people to pick up the trash. From what I understand, the cutting down of tropical rainforests is what is driving species to extinction. Tropical rainforests are where there is so much diversity of species. I could be wrong, but I don't think leaving trash in the environment will drive species to extinction.
Fishing nets left in the sea can cause harm to dolphins and sea turtles though, I have heard. And using the fish nets destroys coral reefs I have read.

My dad does pick up the trash on the side of our property at the roadside.


----------



## GregB

HaplozygousNut said:


> Why is it that people say picking up trash helps the environment?


I will concede picking up the trash has very minimal, cosmetic benefit.
But also this activity at least promotes some environmental responsibility and positive behavioral changes and doing something good for the community.
This is a good thing to do.

No one claims that plastic back picking up in Wisconsin somehow helps the Amazon in species preservation.
Not directly and not significantly in any way that I am aware of.
We are simply cleaning our own backyard - nothing more.

So do you suggest we just leave the plastic blowing about and beer cans decorating the road sides (as if unimportant)?
OK.


----------



## drummerboy

The only issue I have with picking up trash is that some folks think 'once a year' is enough, and that those who don't seem to care are clearly winning the debate. 

No sooner do we pick up someone else's crap and they just start dumping it all over again. As a profit-driven society we have 'collectively' determined that cleaning up our messes somehow isn't in our best interests, nor that of our future generations, who will curse us all.

"We could have saved the Earth, but we were to darn cheap" - Kurt Vonnegut


----------



## BEE J

I wish plastic was never mass produced.  That and nuclear weapons.


----------



## drummerboy

BEE J said:


> I wish plastic was never mass produced.  That and nuclear weapons.


The technology exists to produce more environmentally friendly plastics from 'plants' (cannabis has great potential) but the OIL/PLASTIC Industry is in charge and is only thinking of 'todays' profits. 

It won't change unless and until we STOP subsidizing and supporting a dying industry that is killing us all.

Nuclear Weapons? That discussion requires another thread......


----------



## BEE J

drummerboy said:


> The technology exists to produce more environmentally friendly plastics from 'plants' (cannabis has great potential)


Really? I don't remember hearing of that. We to have something biodegradable, something that will break down and actually feed the soil.


drummerboy said:


> It won't change unless and until we STOP subsidizing and supporting a dying industry that is killing us all.


It's hard, man.😔


drummerboy said:


> Nuclear Weapons? That discussion requires another thread......


Ya'll have to stop encouraging me😆.

Cheers, BEEJ


----------



## GregB

drummerboy said:


> The technology exists to produce more environmentally friendly plastics from 'plants' (cannabis has great potential) but the OIL/PLASTIC Industry is in charge and is only thinking of 'todays' profits.


Paper-based, renewable sourcing (in general sense - including cannabis, etc) is the way forward for the every-day utility containers. Hopefully the current political events will push away from oil.


----------



## GregB

drummerboy said:


> The only issue I have with picking up trash is that some folks think 'once a year' is enough, and that those who don't seem to care are clearly winning the debate.


Well, out of the subdivision that has several thousand residents about 20-30 people come out (even if just once a year). And these are the "old guard" who first moved into this wheat field construction 15-20 years ago. We've known each other since then and our kids started in the elementary school about together.

This recently added younger crowd is consumerist, detached, virtual society and give no rat's a$$.
Someone is walking there and picking the trash - good for them - now move along and keep biking (is kind of the attitude).


----------



## AR1

I have to say that living now just 5 miles from my childhood home, things have improved considerably. There is far, far less roadside trash now than in the 1960s-70s. 

Many improvements, nearby rivers are clean now, to the point that the fish are edible. Wildlife is abundant, species that were not here 50 years ago: goldfinch, bald eagle, many many hawks when they were very few then, white-tail deer are a plague when they were very rare then, Canada geese, coyote, even the occasional wolf and cougar. I could go on.


----------



## drummerboy

AR1 said:


> I have to say that living now just 5 miles from my childhood home, things have improved considerably. There is far, far less roadside trash now than in the 1960s-70s.
> 
> Many improvements, nearby rivers are clean now, to the point that the fish are edible. Wildlife is abundant, species that were not here 50 years ago: goldfinch, bald eagle, many many hawks when they were very few then, white-tail deer are a plague when they were very rare then, Canada geese, coyote, even the occasional wolf and cougar. I could go on.


Yeah, wild creatures are running out of space as humans encroach and expand, so we encounter them more often. That's been happening for a very long time. I'm certain statistics exist that would prove, with only a few exceptions that wildlife isn't increasing, nor abundant. It's actually shrinking, due to human expansion.

I believe the 'experts' are calling it habitat destruction or 'habitat loss' these days and it remains something that affects honeybees (all life) as well. Beekeepers have been complaining about habitat loss for a couple decades already....due to the effects of monoculture.

Alas, because it occurs over generations we typically don't notice our intrusion, until we do. 

We also live roughly 5-7 miles from the nearest town of approximately 150 people on a 4-5 mile long town road with just 4 year round residents. No sooner do we pick up someones crap, and there's more the next day, mostly beer cans, but some real nasty stuff as well, forcing the conclusion that some folks are just pigs....apologies to pigs.

"The biggest threat to humanity (all life) is humanity"


----------



## AR1

drummerboy said:


> Yeah, wild creatures are running out of space as humans encroach and expand, so we encounter them more often. That's been happening for a very long time. I'm certain statistics exist that would prove, with only a few exceptions that wildlife isn't increasing, nor abundant. It's actually shrinking, due to human expansion.


This is absolutely not the case here, though it may be in other places. These are animals expanding their ranges, wolves and cougars from Wisconsin moving into Illinois, birds recovering populations that were decimated in the last century. Deer recovering population as hunting is more controlled. Wildlife, compared to 1970, is vastly more abundant in Illinois than it was then.


----------



## drummerboy

I think you may have proven my point......

Q; so why do 'you' think you're seeing more wildlife?


----------



## Litsinger

drummerboy said:


> I think you may have proven my point....


I certainly have no interest in being argumentative, but suggest this issue might be multi-faceted.

Indeed, human sprawl is a real thing, and certain species appear ill-equipped to adapt to suburbia (similar to some humans, including myself).

That said, there also areas (particularly in Appalacha) where more native environments are returning after decades of laying fallow following clear cutting and failed attempts to farm.

And then there is the change in mindset among people, particularly concerning refuse disposal and wildlife management. Even in my lifetime I have seen a significant shift away from unscrupulous dumping of trash in every gully and creek one could find and a marked reduction in poaching activity.

While it is not all unbridled success by any means, I do see progress around here at least.

I am also reminded of two wildlife reintroduction efforts that have proven wildly successful in the Eastern US- the turkey and the elk:









Wild Turkey Restoration: The Greatest Conservation Success Story?


Once, conservationists thought turkeys were doomed. Now, some consider the birds to be too abundant. How did we achieve this dramatic turn of events?




blog.nature.org










Elk In Kentucky







fw.ky.gov





As Mr. Miller points out,_ 'Turkeys prove what we can accomplish – when there is passion and political will. Let’s not overlook a spectacular success.'_


----------



## drummerboy

Examples of humans justifying our actions (or inactions) by cherry-picking rare and often artificial successes are abundant (more examples aren't really needed, are they?), and as old as the hills, or at least as old as humanity itself. Past civilizations, come and gone, are filled with such self-obsessive behavior.

Due to our collective emotional immaturity we can't resist patting our selves on the back for perceived successes and apparently cannot adjust/change the worst qualities that brought us this far, and are destroying our 'one' planet. That denial thing, ya know?

Ukraine is the probably the most 'in your face' example at the moment, but rest assured my friends, the 'activist' in me can carry on with evidentiary examples of 'this debate' indefinitely...... if that is what the OP and other contributors desire  However, This may not bee the place to have such a discussion, maybe just a time for planting seeds. 

I can't help but think of the opening scene from 2001, A Space Odyssey. That's us at our best and worst, fighting over a water hole. Emotionally, psychologically, physically and spiritually, we're still fighting over the resources that our planet provides us for free and that have been stolen from us all, and keeps us enslaved. Unless we adapt and change our ways future 'water wars' will make past oil wars seem tame by comparison. Look around, it's happening all over the planet.

Unfortunate truth; Humans have not evolved (kept pace) with our technological advancements emotionally or psychologically, and remain collectively as a species, un-willing to take the steps necessary to adapt and adopt different behavior methods that promote and enrich 'all' life, instead of just 'some' lives. We're stuck, and need to move in another direction before its too late. Many think it is already too late.

Until such time, propaganda and conspiracy will rule at the behest of our rulers, along with our persistent drive to worship Kings and Queens, both real and imagined.....living and dead.

Hey, thanks everyone (sorry GregV) for the opportunity to let off some steam and plant some flowers along the way.....


----------



## GregB

I will say that there are few reintro successes - this mostly concern the *very visible species (good for PR!!!)* that happen to adapt well to the human-altered landscape and even find it desirable (those same old turkeys and deer and certain smaller predators).

The real issue, however, is demonstrated by the *wind shield test*, NOT by the foxes/coyotes and turkeys/deer that seem to have overrun now the capitol of Wisconsin (after adapting to the dumpster diving and taking over the city parks).


----------



## GregB

Back to the bees...
So now I can evaluate winter worthiness of the bees (the mite issue largely cut away now). 

2/3 of April 2022 was essentially winter weather which makes winter worthiness even more significant - this year the winter was 5-6 months, end to end.












This is one case where I will terminate the line (just some pollinator bees used as control). Even with the mites out of the equation, these bees don't do well in our harsh conditions, as the picture shows. So yes, there is plenty of localization work to do even outside of the mite survivability.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> Back to the bees...
> So now I can evaluate winter worthiness of the bees (the mite issue largely cut away now).


Hey Greg quit trying to change the subject!
;-)


----------



## ursa_minor

Greg, in that picture, do you think that the amount of poop, possibly nosema is a sign of non winter worthiness? 

I noticed something with my 3 hives this winter. All three survived, 2 Ukrainian, and 1 Lang. One Ukrainian and the Lang had way more poop, more than I thought was good, and the other had almost zero. All three hives were split/swarms from the same nuc bought in the spring.

The only difference between the winter set up is that the one with no dysentery had a small hole, which I kept open in the winter, at the back of the top quilt box and vented any moisture that happened to get in the box. In my set up the hive could not access that box, the feeding shim had a plexiglass/wood cover with no vent holes, that I could lift up to feed so some moisture would seep into the quilt box around that cover. In the two that were poopy I noticed around March that the blankets inside were slightly damp. 

I remembered a study done in Alberta where they found that nosema was less in hives with upper entrances. I am not saying my experiences reflect this, I just thought it was something I might have to pay attention to.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> Greg, in that picture, do you think that the amount of poop, possibly nosema is a sign of non winter worthiness?


All I can say is that other hives don't show this situation.
It maybe nosema or non-floral honey they may have.
There was enough chances to relieve themselves.

Overall, I don't like how the "pollinator bee" control colonies look like.
Even with decent mite control - still a crappy bee for the location - barely surviving, while I have much better samples as of the end of April.


----------



## GregB

Been a very crappy April 2022.
2018 was pretty bad, but at least the last 10 days of it were consistently warmer.










April 2021









April 2020










April 2019










April 2018


----------



## Gray Goose

same here some pollen collection inbetween rain.
next week is supposed to be in the 60's so maybe more normal.

GG


----------



## Tigger19687

Has it been very windy by you guys?
Super windy here I MASS, way more then usual.
Everything is late coming in, even the leaves haven't one out on bushes that usually are in bloom by now 😞


----------



## Gray Goose

Tigger19687 said:


> Has it been very windy by you guys?
> Super windy here I MASS, way more then usual.
> Everything is late coming in, even the leaves haven't one out on bushes that usually are in bloom by now 😞


yes been windy here

GG


----------



## GregB

Tigger19687 said:


> Has it been very windy by you guys?


Windy or cold or both.
Into May now.


----------



## GregB

But what we have is nothing compared to the Canadian farmer:


----------



## ursa_minor

I know Greg, I saw that when he posted it and it is sad that he seems to get one disaster after another. It is a sorry sight to see the dead wet bees and the hives floating.


----------



## Litsinger

ursa_minor said:


> ... it and it is sad that he seems to get one disaster after another.


I agree- it has been tough to watch. I have no doubt he will bounce-back however. Sounds like more indoor wintering is in his future.


----------



## ursa_minor

Litsinger said:


> Sounds like more indoor wintering is in his future.


I think these were his indoor hives, he had to put them out. I also think he mentioned that some were beginning to starve and needed syrup ASAP. He moved some hives back inside, as well as his nucs, and is feeding them, but I am not sure how easy it is to feed a stack of bees, so room was probably and issue and he could not move them all back in and feed there. 

He will bounce back but with the high increase of dead hives in Canada there will be a demand for nucs. A good opportunity for the commercial guy to make money unless he lost his bees and needs all the nucs for himself.


----------



## joebeewhisperer

ursa_minor said:


> I know Greg, I saw that when he posted it and it is sad that he seems to get one disaster after another. It is a sorry sight to see the dead wet bees and the hives floating.


I agree with everyone. That was a gut-wrenching to watch. However, when he started peeling back bubble wrap and live bees started boiling up, it was a hopeful sight. Tough little boogers.


----------



## ursa_minor

It made me wonder what the bees do, if they have some time, when water rises, a fire comes or something else threatens the hive. Do they first protect the queen, or is it every man for himself?


----------



## GregB

Finally spring.
The coming weekend I mean to go around and closely inspect every unit for the queen status (never was done yet).

This season the first time ever also I mean to do some stimulating feeding.
I need the bees going fast and now because of the pre-planned projects. 
Finally, some planning ahead is actually possible.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> #9 - daughter of a random swarm queen - B- (7 frames; very, very significant drop - wow; capped brood(!); even though these bees went into December very strong on 10 frames - the losses are staggering; strong pollinator-bee genes)


My "student" just let me know of no activity in #9.
As of two weeks ago the attrition was very heavy. 
I added emergency feed over the small remaining cluster there but the picture was bleak.

Will not be surprised this very cold and long spring did them in (forcing the long winter overall).
Even if alive still, this colony will be of no practical value to speak of (after consuming most all the honey too).

Over the weekend, hopefully, I will have details.
But overall, this is confirming the theory that outside of the clear mite-related issues, we also have have just the general winter-worthiness factor.

Meanwhile, lots of locals already have been exchanging the talks of their recent imported package purchases. Sigh.
We here are hurting with the very basic issues of just the locally unfit bees.
And then the mites....


----------



## GregB

OK, I am writing off the #9 into the "loss" bracket.
It will be 11/12 ~ 92% survival for now.
I have my doubts about another one, but the weekend will tell.

Even though I saved the queen into a mini-nuc for now - it was still a near terminal case.
I just happened to get the alert in time and came to look at the hive.

There was the queen and about 20 bees.
A low value pollinator queen that she is, I still have the summer uses for her IF she is not damaged. A helper queen never hurts. Will see what pans out.


----------



## BEE J

Gray Goose said:


> same here some pollen collection inbetween rain.
> next week is supposed to be in the 60's so maybe more normal.
> 
> GG


We've been having some nearby storms. The weather is fairly warm here, and all the blackberries are blooming.


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> It will be 11/12 ~ 92% survival for now.


That seems pretty decent to me, but how does it compare to your average?


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> That seems pretty decent to me, but *how does it compare to your average?*


It is public information PeeJ:
GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees. | Page 57 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> It is public information* PeeJ:*


Uhhhh..... did you mean to type that, just checking. 😄 Sorry to bother you with already answered questions, it's just that it's sometimes easier to have someone send you the link to the post than go digging for it yourself. Thanks, man!

So Greg, you said...


GregB said:


> Conclusion: expected 5 year TF survival probability at my place is *13%*.


You don't mean that, on average, only 13% of your TF colonies* live* through the winter do you? Just clarifying.


* (Edited): Sorry to ask this I just read through the posts above, and it seems your saying that "natural beekeeping" was a total flop for you, with massive dieoffs, even after you did everything. I'm very sorry for the losses you've had.*


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> Uhhhh..... did you mean to type that, just checking. 😄 Sorry to bother you with already answered questions, it's just that it's sometimes easier to have someone send you the link to the post than go digging for it yourself. Thanks, man!
> 
> So Greg, you said...
> 
> You don't mean that, on average, only 13% of your TF colonies* live* through the winter do you? Just clarifying.


Yes, my "success" is public information on this forum.

Actually, it is *success *in that I went onto the fact finding trip, found the facts for myself, and kept it all public for others to see.
Time well spent.

A lot of people go TF and then quietly go away to never be heard from again. So those cases go wasted as we need more actual and factual case studies coming from different settings and locations (both successes and failures).

*13%* - exactly what I found - life expectancy of the TF colonies at my location at the end of the winter.

One can use different number of colonies and different parameters in my area - but the end result will be similar (below 20% anyway - which is pathetic and unsustainable).


----------



## BEE J

Gray Goose said:


> Hi greg not good looking numbers.
> IMO it is a lot like real estate , 3 most important things.
> location location location.
> good forage, good water, few imported issues from large bee drops.
> 
> mine is 26 hives into winter 12 losses, just added one more this past week found queen less. So close to 50 % but I did OA in fall Me thinks a bit too late. I do have 10 split out there now from swarm control actions.
> 
> I think your clean starts will help.
> did you have any starve out or winter queen failures, I did have a couple of those in the far yard, was too busy to do a good fall setup, my bad,, hope to fix that this year. At least I have some bees to work with, 7 of the survivors are 3 box and 1 -4 box hives, often have 30 frames (lang frames) of bees and Queen cells on the inspections last week.
> 
> did get 10 new hives built this winter hoping for 40 going into this winter. I am treating the splits as they get to brood less, then an Aug treatment as well. Be wild if 40 survived. I'd need 100 supers and I am a bit short of that.
> I would have sent bees, to morph, but the pure ones did not make it and the couple that did have different queens oddly several of my hives superseded in late fall. black queen in fall yellow queen in spring.
> 
> I try to get the "suspected" breeders up to big size 3 deep ish for winter, seems they winter better and come out stronger than the smallish ones. I do have 4 of the side by side Palmer style NUCs to try for this winter as well.
> Making them in late June. from the best of the best.
> 
> good luck this year.
> 
> GG


GG, what is your average loss. Just interested in this topic.


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> GG, what is your average loss. Just interested in this topic.


May want to ping GG using @Gray Goose - so he gets a ping.


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> Yes, my "success" is public information on this forum.
> 
> Actually, it is *success *in that I went onto the fact finding trip, found the facts for myself, and kept it all public for others to see.
> Time well spent.


I meant did you mean to type PEEJ, instead of BEEJ. I think I know so just checking

I really appreciate your efforts! Good going Greg!

I guess the info concludes that bees can't survive without human intervention where your at. I wonder why...


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> ..............
> * (Edited): Sorry to ask this I just read through the posts above, and it seems your saying that "natural beekeeping" was a total flop for you, with massive dieoffs, even after you did everything. I'm very sorry for the losses you've had.*


Yes it was - a flop.
But I wanted to find out the facts.
Some local TF enthusiasts here kept talking of the TF thing while *never *reporting they own numbers.
At that point you don't know what are the real facts.
So I found out what the actual numbers were.


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> I meant did you mean to type *PEEJ*, instead of *BEEJ*. I think I know so just checking


Oops!
Typo.
LOL
Let me fix.
(but you know - let me keep it as is just for fun - Internet remembers everything anyway).


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> May want to ping GG using @Gray Goose - so he gets a ping.


I will. Thanks for the tip!


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> Oops!
> Typo.
> LOL
> Let me fix.
> (but you know - let me keep it as is just for fun - Internet remembers everything anyway).


Totally fine!


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> I guess the info concludes that bees can't survive without human intervention where your at. I wonder why...


The biggest issue here is the uncontrolled and massive, annual bee importation.
Just nothing can break that trend - UNLESS some millionaire comes in and gives everyone better bees so that they never, ever buy imported bees again. Then there is a chance.


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> Yes it was .
> But I wanted to find out the facts.
> Some local TF enthusiasts here kept talking of the TF thing while *never *reporting they own numbers.
> At that point you don't know what are the real facts.
> So I found out what the actual numbers were.


Thanks for being so honest. I am wondering if there're any wild bees that have managed to survive in your area. The climate sound hard on bees in general.


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> The biggest issue here is the uncontrolled and massive, annual bee importation.
> Just nothing can break that trend - UNLESS some millionaire comes in and gives everyone better bees so that they never, ever buy imported bees again. Then there is a chance.


Do you go to a local club and talk to the local keepers? Is their a specific breed everyone is getting or is it anything and everything?


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> Thanks for being so honest. I am wondering* if there're any wild bees that have managed to survive in your area.* The climate sound hard on bees in general.


With the massive annual dumps of the pollinator-grade bees, most any feral bees will be quickly diluted to nothing up here.


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> *13%* - exactly what I found - life expectancy of the TF colonies at my location at the end of the winter.
> 
> One can use different number of colonies and different parameters in my area - but the end result will be similar (below 20% anyway - which is pathetic and unsustainable).


Doesn't that mean that beekeeping is unsustainable up there? I mean if they can't survive without human intervention...


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> With the massive annual dumps of the pollinator-grade bees, most any feral bees will be quickly diluted to nothing up here.


What are people pollinating that needs these bees brought up there?


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> Do you go to a local club and talk to the local keepers? Is their a specific breed everyone is getting or is it anything and everything?


Most people just get "packages" of whatever (kinda, sorta Italians - which is the pollinator bee). But again, everyone has Google and so people import all kinds of random bees - it can be Saskatraz, Buckfast, Russian, "leg biters", you name it.

And so like I said already - swarm chasing can be fun here because all of those imported bees swarm too. I caught interesting bees before, but because of the TF regiment I lost them all.

I kinda restarted my local club participation now that I actually mean to sell off some of my bees. That's what the local club is for, anyway - the sales.


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> What are people pollinating that needs these bees brought up there?


People do NOT pollinate anything.
People buy what is offered *cheaply and early.*

And what is offered cheaply and early is the bee which propagates quickly and massively down South - the bees that fit well the early season pollination contracts AND post-pollination the bee sales targeting the North.

This is a very good and working business model BeeJ - for the bee sellers.
Again, nothing mysterious and secretive here.
Just read the sales ads.

So lots of local backyard beeks buy the pollinator-grade bees up here without a slightest understanding that they need a different bee for the backyard hobby up North.

This is mind-boggling, but lots of these hobby people have been doing the same for 5-10-15 years and never learn any better.


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> Doesn't that mean that beekeeping is unsustainable up there? I mean if they can't survive without human intervention...


This is exactly what I have been reporting - as soon as I applied very minimal mite treatments, the survival jumped from 13% to 92% as of the moment for me.


----------



## msl

BEE J said:


> I guess the info concludes that bees can't survive without human intervention where your at. I wonder why.


mites...the answer is almost always mites. That and domestication... the traits humans want are often at odds with wild survival
Greg threw in one or 2 effective mite treatments and his overwinter survival went threw the roof

I am sure that the ferals are doing quite fine in the wild areas and wild colony density.

modern beekeeping (even on the back yard scale) is often feedlot conditions compared to Seeleys 2.5 hives per square mile
You take a animal, cram it in a small yard with a bunch of others, and force it to grow to 3-5X its wild size so you can harvest what you want form it, when you think of it, thats exactly whats done with pigs, feral hogs don't make bacon, they make more pigs (and hog farmers have a large focus on bio secerty) . You have to expect problems



GregB said:


> So lots of local backyard beeks buy the pollinator-grade bees up here without a slightest understanding that they need a different bee for the backyard hobby up North.


I am not sure "need" is the right word, you seem to be doing just fine with many of those swarms form "almond bees"


GregB said:


> as soon as I applied very minimal mite treatments, the survival jumped from 13% to 92% as of the moment for me.


blaming genetics from "big AG" is an easy scape goat. While the GEI shows local adaption matters GEI Experiment
there other work finds "bee colony survival depends on beekeeper education and disease control"








A pan-European epidemiological study reveals honey bee colony survival depends on beekeeper education and disease control - PubMed


Reports of honey bee population decline has spurred many national efforts to understand the extent of the problem and to identify causative or associated factors. However, our collective understanding of the factors has been hampered by a lack of joined up trans-national effort. Moreover, the...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov




beekeepers in CAN seem to have no issue with NZ packages and queens
and the BIP data shows the same.. a bit of a bump from genetics, but sold mite control being the main factor



GregB said:


> This is mind-boggling, but lots of these hobby people have been doing the same for 5-10-15 years and never learn any better.


well bip says hobby beekepers don't get better with age......lol

is it not learning, or is it no other choice? Is there a solid alterative to buy their bees from?

with out a large supplier of local bees one can count on people goo for what ever they can get.
with out of culture of keeeping your bees alive and over wintering splits so you have extra come spring, people go for what ever they can get...

in my mind one of the biggest issues is restrictive hobiest beekeeping regs (1-2 hives total, no nucs, they have no way to do anything but buy replacements ) and that there is no $$ in teaching people to be self sufcant


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> I am not sure "need" is the right word, you seem to be doing just fine with many of those swarms form "almond bees"


I will do a complete monthly report after the weekend round, but......

Out of my five control colonies (four of them are clear pollinators) - one is a loss now and the others are not looking good.
They are alive, but that's about it - alive.
So that is the control side.

The VSH side is looking fine and dandy.
I am pleased with them.

So, there is a difference.
Yes - the minimal treatment works.
No - the bees are not the same.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> is it not learning, or is it no other choice? Is there a solid alterative to buy their bees from?


Some people never learn.
Some people have no patience.
Patience is a learned quality and thus some people just never gain that.

Meanwhile the import sellers have been screaming - buy now or there will be no bees left.  Complete non-sense, but works every time.

We do have solid alternatives to buy bees - for a fact.
But this requires waiting *until June.*
OR - paying the double price for the over-wintered bees. ($350 per nuc)

I have bees for sale this season myself (the VSH line for sure).
But no earlier than June (especially with the season running 2-3 weeks behind).


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> there other work finds "bee colony survival depends on beekeeper education and disease control"


Disagreed.
There is the bee factor too - it is significant.
Very clear to me.
Not just the "beekeeper education and disease control".


> While the GEI shows *local adaption* matters


What local adaptation?
Has been said enough already. 
Our "local adaptation" comes from Georgia.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> well bip says hobby beekepers don't get better with age......lol


This applies to most any occupation. A general thing.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> beekeepers in CAN seem to have no issue with NZ packages and queens
> and the BIP data shows the same.


Those NZ packages of *Carnica* lineage.
Makes a difference.


----------



## msl

GregB said:


> Those NZ packages of *Carnica* lineage.


as are many packages coming in to your area


GregB said:


> What local adaptation?


ment as a proxy for subutibul genetics



GregB said:


> We do have solid alternatives to buy bees - for a fact.
> But this requires waiting *until June.*


there is some one ready to reliability supply packages in 500 unit orders? that's the average load out here



GregB said:


> Meanwhile the import sellers have been screaming - buy now or there will be no bees left.  Complete non-sense, but works every time.


I watch them sell out here every year, quick look at websites in your area suggests the same


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> as are many packages coming in to your area
> 
> ment as a proxy for subutibul genetics
> 
> 
> there is some one ready to reliability supply packages in 500 unit orders? that's the average load out here
> 
> 
> I watch them sell out here every year, quick look at websites in your area suggests the same


Sure, there some Carnica available.
But many people buy "just bees" - by now I know what to expect in 80% of the swarms I catch.
20% chance it will be Carnica/Russians/something interesting - solid *minority*.

Those who want to wait and/or pay extra - they wait and pay, and don't complain.
But again - a solid *minority*.

Pretty much all the package/nuckage buyers already got their bees by now.
All the talk about their packages doing great... 
Solid *majority*.


----------



## GregB

Hmm...
This salvaged queen #9 maybe doing fine with the couple of shakes of bees she got.
A very cozy new home.
Itching to see how this project will progress - I would love to have a mini-farm going on my porch. If any other very week colonies I find over the weekend, might as move them into the coolers too.


----------



## BEE J

Thanks for all the info, Greg! You got a large knowledge base!


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> ... might as move them into the coolers too.


Good idea, Greg. I like it!


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> ............
> 
> View attachment 69061


Speaking of these cooler-nucs...
I concluded that these need to be a little bigger than I originally tried.
Right now I am using a 7-framer.
It was handy to shake the bees directly from the frames into it.
It has space for 7 frames and a feeder.
I also use follower board from cardboard to make the volume smaller if needs to be - very flexible.  
All the 4-frame cooler-nucs will go back to the recycling center - too small and tight.
6-8 framers are usable in many use situation (just like now - salvaged a queen).










Also want to try 2-tier cooler-nucs, finally.
Had them made up last year but never had enough bees to play with.

This mini-nuc I made up yesterday, I will grow up to 2 tiers (12-14 mini-frames - pictured below), then will break into mating nucs OR pull some splits off/steal bees as needed.
Pretty much all the same as with big hives - just mini-frames/cooler-nucs. Excited!


----------



## GregB

The cooler-nuc spent the night in rather cool garage.
Put them onto the porch mid-morning and opened to check.
Queen is fine; bees are fine.
But this thing is very, very toasty - 1-2 full frames of bees really keep the thing rather warm (good!).
There is vent cut through the floor - almost wonder if it is large enough at about 4-5 inches square. Will find out.
Will see how long this cooler will last as I can hear some chewing going on.  
But they are free and I have plenty on hand to swap in and out.


----------



## GregB

This is too small.
In fact, those mating nucs people make are too small IMO, because they could easily be made up to 7-8 frames and be more flexible. 
Those can be wintered through just well - big enough.


----------



## HaplozygousNut

GregB said:


> The biggest issue here is the uncontrolled and massive, annual bee importation.
> Just nothing can break that trend - UNLESS some millionaire comes in and gives everyone better bees so that they never, ever buy imported bees again. Then there is a chance.


You are right about the Italian bees having bad genetics. I am from North Carolina in the Southeast US. I bought some of what I think are commercial Italian bees from Florida. They are small, sluggish, light colored bees. They did terribly in our poor nectar flow. They are having starving problems during our nectar season, and I am seeing brood diseases for the first time (chalk brood, foulbrood?). In comparison our local bee nucs with just a handful of bees are building up in this poor season. I tried uniting the small, light colored Florida bees to our local queen nucs that I just mated, but the last local queen was killed by the Florida bees while doing the newspaper combining method.

I took out the Florida queens, and am now waiting to let all the eggs in the Florida hives hatch before putting in a frame of young larvae and eggs from our local colonies into each Florida hive to rear queen cells of our local genetics and forage much better. Now I am regretting getting those what I think are commercial Italian bees. I didn't know that they would be poor foragers.

I have found drones in the Florida colonies that are dark thoracic haired like Tunisian or German black bees, so they are probably not pure Italian bees. I showed a video of them to Juhani Lunden from Finland, and he said that they were not pure Italian bees because they were mostly too dark colored. Although I thought they were unusually light colored bees, at least compared to our local light colored bees that are duller.

I recently started feeding just about all our hives sugar syrup this year. And I hope to go to the mountains in May to get their Spring nectar flow.


----------



## HaplozygousNut

Your cooler nucs are interesting. They are well insulated to help for small splits.


----------



## GregB

Free standing frames in a cooler-hive.
A very cool thing, this trash coolers with free standing frames work just regular long hives, just tiny. Two good shakes of bees stuffed into this thing keep it tropical (warm and humid).
I hope this thing explodes quickly.

While at it, find the salvaged queen #9 in this pic.


----------



## GregB

Done inspecting about half the units.
Pretty much the 11/12 (92%) survival stands

The only PPE while checking the control colonies was a mosquito net over my cap (these make great commercial bees, no wonder).

Well, the VSH-side quickly gave me a dosage of apitherapy (even though I dressed up better). Them little bastards know my gloves have holes on the finger tips - they dive directly for a hole and zap it. 😬

Details later.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> Done inspecting about half the units.
> Pretty much the 11/12 (92%) survival stands
> 
> The only PPE while checking the control colonies was a mosquito net over my cap (these make great commercial bees, no wonder).
> 
> Well, the VSH-side quickly gave me a dosage of apitherapy (even though I dressed up better). Them little bastards know my gloves have holes on the finger tips - they dive directly for a hole and zap it. 😬
> 
> Details later.


I only use a mosquito net over a straw hat. Perfect. It has elastic so it closes tight at the neck. If it's a hotter (for me, not very hot really) hive I toss a hand towel across my neck. My problem is wrists! Those bees love to hit bare wrists. 

I only ever had one really hot hive. I would light a fire in a steel bucket upwind so a cloud of smoke covered the whole hive. When they got bad I would stand directly in the plume of smoke for as long as I could hold my breath. Covered my ears with earmuffs so I didn't get nervous from the extreme buzzing attacks around my head. When done I would run through thick brush and bushes so they lost track of me, then jump into the car before too many got in with me, and drive off with veil still in place. Fun bees! Wish I still had them, best honey producers I have had. That hive died from my poor skills, sad to say.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> Done inspecting about half the units.
> Pretty much the 11/12 (92%) survival stands
> ............
> Details later.


As is typically around here, the forecast flopped.
No way was I digging into the hives today.
Hopefully next weekend.

The real reason I need to dig in - need to grade my colonies as the spring is officially here and dandelions came on-line.


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> As is typically around here, the forecast flopped.


Same here, too. We got cold and rainy weather just after my first swarm came.
I hope things warm up for you soon!


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> As is typically around here, the forecast flopped.
> No way was I digging into the hives today.
> Hopefully next weekend.


Greg:

Good to read your updates- sounds like you've got a lot of material to work with this season.

As you evaluate your expansion plans, are you going to prioritize the CVH's?

It has hit 90 here the last two days with no let-up in sight- summer is here in W. Kentucky and swarm season is winding down here as you are getting ready to ramp up!


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> As you evaluate your expansion plans, are you going to prioritize the CVH's?


Hey Russ,
I think the #20 is my practical max at the moment.
More likely anywhere between 10 and 20 going into the winter is good.
Most likely for the season end I will try to setup another 50/50 trial - VSH vs. random set.
Will be selling off some bees so to cover the expenses.

For the summer I got these projects:

- my cooler-nucs; I think by accident I just discovered a new model how to run them - start 1-2-3 "mother" cooler nucs using low value queens (just like I did) - grow them/split them/create a mini-nuc park for multi-use purposes; the purposes - mating, bee stealing, queen holding, *swarm cell forcing*; as I look at it - the cooler-nucs are very efficient in that a small quantity of bees can do a lot of output (more than a standard nuc); more details later as I develop the thing more; and the availability of the cooler boxes is mind-boggling - all it takes a free-standing frame setup so to use just about any cooler, large or small, squat or tall

- yes, the CVHs; planning to build another full stack so to have at least two 6-box full-size stacks; but this is some labor - the hive and frame making; almost a cringe when I can take home tens upon tens free coolers

- one of my land lords lets me take their Lang stack and do with it what I want and put the bees into it; sounds like I need to make another hybrid hive; OR maybe I will set it up for the full Dadant frame and do that experiment.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> ... almost a cringe when I can take home tens upon tens free coolers...


I completely identify with this- one night I came in from spending several hours one evening dutifully painting more woodenware and told my wife that it wasn't fun anymore...

While I love the look of neat rows of immaculate white boxes, it is quite apparent that the bees don't care a whit about any of that and I'd be money ahead building boxes out of scrap 2X stock that was butt nailed and unfinished- the KISS method.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I completely identify with this- one night I came in from spending several hours one evening dutifully *painting more woodenware and told my wife that it wasn't fun anymore...*


Exactly.
I will build more, this is given - just because I really want these square Warre-ish hives.
I wish I was independently wealthy - I'd just have someone make them for me (still from scraps!).
Well, still need to make the hives myself.

If anything, thinking of painting more boxes is somewhat depressing to me as well (even because good quality paint job takes time and good quality paint materials - I got very little).
Poor quality painting is almost a waste of time and so why do it?
Well, ok, there are few reasons.

So this idea of reusing freely and widely available containers (made and thrown away by the civilization) is addictive to me.
With this in mind, I keep thinking of the optimal free-standing frame dimensions that will allow the best possible ad-hoc container usage while still being compatible to my own equipment.

Most ad-hoc containers are too small for significant honey production BUT are totally fine for meaningful bee production (and in fact, many ad-hoc containers are superior to the conventional beekeeping equipment).


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Most ad-hoc containers are too small for significant honey production BUT are totally fine for meaningful bee production (and in fact, many ad-hoc containers are superior to the conventional beekeeping equipment).


This hits a lot of notes of things I've been thinking about of late- not that honey isn't great and I want to harvest all I can, but it seems like the best ROI in beekeeping is selling bees- so I'm beginning to wonder if more colonies in smaller cavities might not be a better business investment...


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> but it seems like the best ROI in beekeeping is selling bees


Hands down.
Honey only makes sense for self-consumption/gifts/rent payments.
I would not waste my time on the honey sales.

And once you look at the bee production - you can get away with all kinds of hacks while the hygiene requirements are low and the equipment requirements are low too and all these "how are you going extract" talks are about irrelevant.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> ..........once you look at the bee production - you can get away with all kinds of hacks while the hygiene requirements are low and the equipment requirements are low too and all these "how are you going extract" talks are about irrelevant.


So, I was wondering @Litsinger, based on your Warre vs. Lang experience, what could you comment on the following:

- once decoupled from the Lang hive requirement, would you choose Warre-type over Lang-type for purely bee-targeting operation?

- keeping in mind that the rigid Lang attachment has commercial honey production base to it - e.g. extraction equipment compatibility (#1) and commercial bee production base to it - e.g. buyer equipment compatibility (#2), but largely ignoring the facts of physics (cube and cylinder energy efficiency) (#3)

- do you see that the Warre-type equipment to be more efficient in the bee production - e.g. you can make more bees using fewer bees (vs. the Langs)?

I have been thinking while daily observing my cooler-nuc that this Lang-frame attachment is so much engrained into the thinking that the rather obvious alternative things go un-noticed or go ignored as if unworthy.

Meanwhile, if one to dump this Lang-frame/honey business requirement as unimportant while making the bee-making business the priority - then more bee-making friendly configurations and methods become easier to see and adopt.

For example, a square-ish, small-ish frame that fits both Warre-type hives but also fits cross-wise the standard 8-frame deep Lang equipment could be one bee-friendly feature.
This frame would allow to keep the cubic configurations even in the Lang boxes - allowing smaller clusters to efficiently survive and pro-create.

Of course, people have been exactly this already.
This is not my own genius proposal.
Attached below is just a couple of examples - (a) half-Dadant deep frames in square 6-frame foam hive, (b) similar small frames in 6-frame boxes

Will this have any merit from your experience?
I simply have not been observing Warre vs. Lang side by side.
But you have.
Thanks for any comments.


----------



## drummerboy

In the early 2000's we built a 'long hive' consisting of 30 'medium' frames, with 2" foam board, top and bottom as insulation. We placed a swarm, cast from our own bees, inside and made at least 3 splits from it the following year. According to notes from the time period this colony survived 3 winters. 

We never took any honey from them, only removing frames of brood from time to time to inhibit swarming or make splits. They were the most gentle and awesome bees to work....and they taught us a lot about bees that Langs never did. Hornets soon moved into the hive body after the bees died out, left, returned again a few times (me bad)...and the broken down box is sitting and rotting in a corner of the bee yard still. 

This thread has inspired me to finally clean up the mess and build another Long Hive, this time using 30 Deeps (we have piles of Deeps since going to all mediums in 2007) and using some of the techniques learned herein.

Thanks for the inspiration!! 

BEE - U - Ti - FUL DAY in Northern Wisconsin....gonna check for queen right colonies today......the Dandelions have just begun,,,,better late than....gotta go....


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> - once decoupled from the Lang hive requirement, would you choose Warre-type over Lang-type for purely bee-targeting operation?


@GregB:

My apologies- it is OFF THE CHAIN at work lately. Wanted to take a moment over my lunch break to get back with you so I didn't leave you hanging.

That is a good question, and I had to think on it for awhile. What I have observed here with Warre's and Lang's side-by-side:

1. Overwintering - Warre > Langstroth
2. Spring Build-Up- Warre > Langstroth
3. Ease of Manipulation- Langstroth >> Warre

I should add some context- I have standardized on Illinois-depth Langstroth boxes which are predominantly 8-frame width. These boxes are all 3/4" thick and contain 80%+ foundationless comb in standard Hoffman frames on 1-3/8" spacing.

The Warre's I have on the other hand are made out of standard 2X stock and are strictly top-bar only. The combs tend to average about 1-1/2" spacing.

So I think many of the differences I observe are influenced by factors which are not strictly due to hive type per se but the actual properties of the two set-ups (i.e. wall thickness or frames versus no).

The Warre's definitely swarm more and swarm harder- but again I do not take any steps to mitigate swarming with the Warre's so this might not be a fair comparison either.

All that said (and to get to your question), if I could design my own set-up it would be something like:

1. Interior footprint of an 8 or 10-frame medium depth Langstroth to utilize Hoffman frames but built out of 2X stock.
2. A 7/8" or 1" hole bored in the center of one of the short sides of each box as an entrance which can be opened or closed by the bees as they wish.
3. A duck cloth inner cover.
4. A migratory style outer cover, but with waterproof cladding on the outside and 1" - 2" rigid insulation on the inside.
5. 1X solid bottom board.

This type of approach to me would give someone the best of both worlds of gaining the advantage of the stronger build-up and the minimalist approach of the Warre's with the standard frame sizing and ease of manipulation that one is afforded with the Lang's.

That said, I could be all wet- I'll welcome constructive criticism.

p.s. I should also add an anecdote based on rereading your posts concerning 'Bee-centricity'. While I know Dr. Seeley swears that swarms prefer a cavity at least 40L in volume, I am consistently amazed at two things on this score (at least in my relatively mild location):

1. How often a big swarm (5+ pounds) will pick a small swarm trap volume when larger volumes are available.

2. How small a cavity feral colonies often live in.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> Done inspecting about half the units.
> Pretty much the 11/12 (92%) survival stands
> 
> The only PPE while checking the control colonies was a mosquito net over my cap (these make great commercial bees, no wonder).
> 
> Well, the VSH-side quickly gave me a dosage of apitherapy (even though I dressed up better). Them little bastards know my gloves have holes on the finger tips - they dive directly for a hole and zap it. 😬
> 
> Details later.


OK, wanted to write comments about each .... and that is too much work if to do a good job.

This is my final grading (just back from my final review).
VSH club wins.
But the #4 turned worse than I expected in the fall (hence the winter testing).
Control club is a looser.
I'd keep the #10 and dump the rest of the club.
---------------------------------------
#1 - VSH survivor queen - A (second winter done)

#2 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - B

#3 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - A+

#4 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - C

#5 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - B+
---------------------------
#7 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - B

#8 - random swarm queen - C

#9 - daughter of a random swarm queen - F

#10 - random swarm queen - A+

#11 - daughter of a random swarm queen - C-

#12 - daughter of a random swarm queen - C-
-------------------------------
#13 - the hive of my "student" - B


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> What I have observed here with Warre's and Lang's side-by-side:
> 
> 1. Overwintering - Warre > Langstroth
> 2. Spring Build-Up- Warre > Langstroth
> 3. Ease of Manipulation- Langstroth >> Warre


Thank you for sharing, Russ.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> OK, wanted to write comments about each .... and that is too much work if to do a good job.
> 
> This is my final grading (just back from my final review).
> VSH club wins.
> But the #4 turned worse than I expected in the fall (hence the winter testing).
> Control club is a looser.
> I'd keep the #10 and dump the rest of the club.
> ---------------------------------------
> #1 - VSH survivor queen - A (second winter done)
> 
> #2 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - B
> 
> #3 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - A+
> 
> #4 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - C
> 
> #5 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - B+
> ---------------------------
> #7 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - B
> 
> #8 - random swarm queen - C
> 
> #9 - daughter of a random swarm queen - F
> 
> #10 - random swarm queen - A+
> 
> #11 - daughter of a random swarm queen - C-
> 
> #12 - daughter of a random swarm queen - C-
> -------------------------------
> #13 - the hive of my "student" - B


I suppose one note I want to make - as long as the winter bees are healthy and have good local traits, a small colony survives WI winter of 5-6 months just fine even with fairly mediocre insulation (like mine).

Meanwhile, rather strong colonies can fail in a spectacular fashion even with having an equal footing with everyone else.

Good examples of the successful small colonies wintered on just 5 frames - #1, #2, #4, #5, #7. 

Good example of a very strong colony that turned out to be a winter flop - #9

Another good thing was - I very timely caught the #3 and #10 in need of immediate expansion (which I have done) - these guys were bursting at seems and running plenty of drone already. The immediate expansion was due so to postpone the swarming for now.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> #1 - VSH survivor queen - A (second winter done)


Speaking of my VSH matriarch, this year I have plans to extract as much valuable material from her as I manage.

Drones
Daughter queens

She started on some drone brood already.
But last weekend I specifically inserted entire frame of drone comb (I saved few of these).
If she covers it, I'd probably move the frame elsewhere to raise it and insert another frame.

Meanwhile, I have a low-quality Q pre-working on the mini-nuc setup for the matriarch.
In 1-2 weeks I plan to pull another low-quality Q into my mini-nuc business.
There will be two Qs pumping the mini-frames with brood - oh, yeah, baby!
Then I will set the matriarch into the special prepared mini with all the bees and brood and see what she can do for me daugher-wise. That forced swarm cell experiment will be fun to observe.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> Speaking of my VSH matriarch, this year I have plans to extract as much valuable material from her as I manage.
> 
> Drones
> Daughter queens
> 
> She started on some drone brood already.
> But last weekend I specifically inserted entire frame of drone comb (I saved few of these).
> If she covers it, I'd probably move the frame elsewhere to raise it and insert another frame.
> 
> Meanwhile, I have a low-quality Q pre-working on the mini-nuc setup for the matriarch.
> In 1-2 weeks I plan to pull another low-quality Q into my mini-nuc business.
> There will be two Qs pumping the mini-frames with brood - oh, yeah, baby!
> Then I will set the matriarch into the special prepared mini with all the bees and brood and see what she can do for me daugher-wise. That forced swarm cell experiment will be fun to observe.


with the correct timing you may get quite a few.
can always put sealed brood back from the poor queens to keep it tight and crowded.

be nice to have a longer hive with the mini frames "Sam C "style so there are 10-12 frames with the potential of good QCs on them.

good luck

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> with the correct timing you may get quite a few.
> can always put sealed brood back from the poor queens to keep it tight and crowded.
> 
> *be nice to have a longer hive with the mini frames "Sam C "style so there are 10-12 frames with the potential of good QCs on them.*
> 
> good luck
> 
> GG


Sure; I should be able to easily have ~10 mini-frame long hives.
Plenty of coolers laying around.
With the coolers, it is trivial to make bigger hives too - cut them up/tape together - done.
For the matriarch, it will be a bigger mini-hive.
Other queens will be supplying it with the bees/brood - to keep it crazy crowed. 

Pretty much the idea is to just pull those mini-frames out as a whole (with the QCs) and stick them around - a frame at a time. Not gonna bother with cutting or anything.
A mini-frame with one or more QCs *intact *- 1-2 mini-frames with the supporting bees - a mating nuc is set.

Even if I can not force the swarm cells, well, just will create the emergency queens on demand just as easily.

Gonna be fun - this mini-nuc farm.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Then I will set the matriarch into the special prepared mini with all the bees and brood and see what she can do for me daugher-wise. That forced swarm cell experiment will be fun to observe.


Greg:

I'll be eager to read about how this turns-out. This is how Terry Combs does his propagation and it seems to be working for him.

I'm curious- are you going to allow all these new queens to open-mate in your neighborhood or are you looking at other options?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Greg:
> 
> I'll be eager to read about how this turns-out. This is how Terry Combs does his propagation and it seems to be working for him.
> 
> I'm curious- are you going to allow all these new queens to open-mate in your neighborhood or are you looking at other options?


Open mate.

So I am building-in up my own drone coverage of my immediate area - now that I can.
Of course, unsure if the related queens/drones will mate in any ways.

But I will also try to make and mate daughters from one of the random control queens that wintered very, very well for me. So I hope my drones will be a factor in that sub-project.

Of note - I am sure I can take some virgins to Trevor's yard for mating (the Lloyd St. Bees).
Last year it fell through with me just not having any bees in time.
This year this is totally different setup - so I consider this.
Trevor has very good drone coverage in his yards.
This is mostly about me finding the time to drive 140 miles round trip.
Mating 2-3 virgins at his yard would be a very good thing.
Depending how this mini-nuc project goes - could be all kinds of fun over the summer - Sam C. ideas but done in Greg V. trashy ways.


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> - Sam C. ideas but done in Greg V. trashy ways.


You don't mean Sam Comfort, do you? I was just wondering.


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## GregB

BEE J said:


> You don't mean Sam Comfort, do you? I was just wondering.


Sure I do.
Sam C. is my kind of a guy in his unconventional ways.


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## BEE J

GregB said:


> Sure I do.
> Sam C. is my kind of a guy in his unconventional ways.


Me too.  My Dad actually met him at a conference Sam was speaking at. I think Dad helped him load some stuff inside or something. It's funny how you just casually run into and help a "rockstar" like that.😄


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## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Mating 2-3 virgins at his yard would be a very good thing.


Sounds like a decent idea to me, particularly considering the troubles you've had in your neighborhood with bee imports.


----------



## GregB

Thinking up some plans to slice and dice the stock on hand.

Feels like I am not really after any huge honey harvest planning (whatever comes along should be enough).
Rather I want to sell off some custom-made nucs and maybe queens too.
It is interesting to create a set of spare queens and see if I can over-winter them all in the mini-setups (and sell few if any demand comes along late season).

I want to dump the least valuable queens (#8, #9, #11, #12) into the mini-farm business and try to milk them for the resources in the queen production project.
These queens will go into the alcohol jar at the end of the season or can be sold off at discounts if anyone wants a pollinator-grade queen (fine queens for short-term usage).

#10 - I want to try to persist this lineage as new queens and observe more.
#1 - I want to milk this VSH matriarch as the drone and queen source through entire summer

The VSH daughters (#2, #3, #4, #5, #7) will go into the bee/honey production and some are to be sold off as needed.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#1 - VSH survivor queen - (A) - drone production in May; queen production in June/July

#2 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - (B) stand-alone unit; will be used for propagation/sales resources in conjunction with the mini-farm

#3 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - (A+) - stand-alone unit; will be used for 2-3 nucs and honey production

#4 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - (B-) - stand-alone unit; will be used for propagation/sales resources in conjunction with the mini-farm

#5 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - (B) - stand-alone unit; will be used for propagation/sales resources in conjunction with the mini-farm
---------------------------
#7 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - (B) - stand-alone unit; will be used for 1-2 nucs and propagation resources (somewhat remote site and not as convenient).

#8 - random swarm queen - (B-) - stand-alone temporarily until dumped into the mini-nuc and terminated; remnantes to be used up for utility purposes

#9 - daughter of a random swarm queen - (F) - written off as a loss - but the actual queen is still alive and heading a utility mini-nuc

#10 - random swarm queen - (A+) - queen production in June/July; otherwise the unit will be used for 1-2 side nucs and honey producion

#11 - daughter of a random swarm queen - (C-) - discontinued; moved the brood to #12; the queen with the bees have been dumped into a utility mini-nuc

#12 - daughter of a random swarm queen - (C) - stand-alone temporarily until terminated; will be used up for utility purposes OR maybe I will combine some bees into here for production
-------------------------------
#13 - the hive of my "student" - the student can do whatever he wants with his hive - I suggested expanding his hive to 2-3 to get moderate growth while also getting some honey crop.


----------



## GregB

My future mini-farm.
Just the two minis for now.
One on the right (#1) has 6 framelets of bees and in about a week should explode due to the brood hatching. The #2 on the left sits on 3 framelets and will take a boost from #1 soon of the new bees.
Somehow I sort of forgot of my other projects and keep thinking ahead of all the way this mini-farm can proceed.
Keeping in mind that my backyard legal limit is *six *hives.


A couple of days ago was talking with another potential bee customer.
He goes - so why with so many hives you don't sell honey? 
No, I don't - I agreed.
I don't care to sell honey.


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> Keeping in mind that my backyard legal limit is *six *hives.


I'm sorry. 

I hope this mini-farm idea really takes off for you Greg! Once you structure a good business model you've won the battle.

P.S. I noticed the bag in the left corner. Man that stuff is tasty! Did you feed your bees today?😄

Keep posting on this project I think it's really cool!

BEEJ


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> I'm sorry.
> 
> I hope this mini-farm idea really takes off for you Greg! Once you structure a good business model you've won the battle.
> 
> P.S. I noticed the bag in the left corner. Man that stuff is tasty! Did you feed your bees today?😄
> 
> Keep posting on this project I think it's really cool!
> 
> BEEJ


I will simply stretch the mini-farm across the other yards.
Backyard is just the most convenient one; but also I seem to keep pestering my minis on the back porch daily (not really good).
Bag in the left corner is Bob's Red Mill cereal - I use them for everything bee-wise (feeding, storage, etc).


----------



## GregB

Well, this feels too much like work now. 
Too many bees is work.
Long weekend went by quick and was no rest to speak of.

Selling some off into people's equipment.


----------



## GregB

There is some swarming pressure to be released.
But some of my puppies are not well behaved and only became worse.

This hive on the left I never seen the queen yet (second season now).
She is impossible to find and the bees today became the nastiest yet (well, due to a windy day).

I ended up just moving every single brood frame out (into the hive on the right).
Left one single frame with young larvae and eggs as a control frame with the old bees.
I hope I moved the queen into temp holding hive to be found on the attempt #2 (should be less bee pressure). Ideally I want her moved into more remote location as there more people around now from my original start some years ago.

While doing these, under constant bee pressure, I was actually thankful I have long hives - I would hate digging through Lang boxes under the circumstances.


----------



## GregB

Speaking of:


> #2 - daughter of VSH survivor queen


This is them (very tight in a 5-frame nuc of the customer - that overhead spacer gives extra clustering space).









I am almost shocked with the difference of the season 2021 and now.
Back in 2021, this was a young and mediocre queen.
Over the entire summer she never built-up her colony and I only kept her as a part of the wintering experiment. She wintered really well, but also a smallish cluster on 4-5 frames. OK, fine.

So yesterday I came unsure if I wanted to make a for-sale nuc from her (#2) or the queen #4. I figured I will look at the development and decide on the spot.
Man, was I surprised to see the #2 was kicking butt.
Not only they looked as strong as they never had been last summer - when I looked inside I found very good brood pattern on 5 frames (which never happened before with this queen).
So it was the #2 for sale - hands down.

Of course, these bees kicked my butt too (not your zombified Italian bees) - these VSH bees do pay attention and have a short patience. Back of the head still hurts since I came in under-dressed (had to upgrade my PPE before I opened the next hive).

Basically, what I rated as generally mediocre queen - looked rather very good.
Hmm.... Surprise there.
Queens become better with age?
Dunno, but looking at my VSH lineage queens - they look very similar - performing better right this moment than they did last summer (even the matriarch herself!).
It is a good surprise.
But a surprise to me nevertheless.
Hence I noted it down.

PS: granted I was very conservative with insulation removal - virtually just took off the blankets and XPS slabs off the VSH yard *yesterday*(May 30th!).
Bees were overheating everywhere as the temps abruptly turned into 80s now.
But for sure this approach works - keep them warm and tight until they start sweating.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Well, this feels too much like work now.


It's a good problem to have- glad things are going well, Greg. Sounds like you've got some good material to work with.

Russ


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> Basically, what I rated as generally mediocre queen - looked rather very good.
> Hmm.... Surprise there.
> Queens become better with age?


+1
I had a couple of over wintered NUCs, where the queen looks bigger and is doing great.
Same deal, last fall I almost combined them not glad I did not.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> +1
> I had a couple of over wintered NUCs, where the queen looks bigger and is doing great.
> Same deal, last fall I almost combined them not glad I did not.
> 
> GG


Exactly, GG.
I even combined two of those "poorly mated duds" as I thought back then - it was OK move for the moment and I don't regret.
But what I observe this spring is totally different from what it was in fall - speaking of the combined "dud".
Just wow.
Something to be aware of.


----------



## GregB

New home of my queen #10.
Will see how this works out.

I don't think I am bringing other breeder queens home - not suitable for the back-porch beekeeping playground.


----------



## GregB

Running about busy creating my new 2022 clean (re)starts - and honey-production setups.
Some work - trying to juggle eleven wintered queens (before even any new queens yet).

My younger son is the mower boy now (took over from the older son).
Well, he is fussy around my ever-so-friendly backyard bees.
Now he sees that cooler with flying bees (pic above) - and gives me all kinds of crap... 
"I mean, Dad, you have bees flying out of the trash boxes?! What is wrong with you!!??"
"Freaking bees are everywhere!" 

Fine.
Whatever.

On the better news...
I *FINALLY *found the queen I have been looking for an *entire year.*
Last weekend I ended up splitting the unfriendly hive into halves - brood-less +1 frame of eggs and brood-full with young bees only. Otherwise it is too much bee pressure to be looking for that feisty queen.

Finally today, after going twice back and forth - I got her.
Thought she would be black, but no.
Lost my white marker; oh well, marked her blue.
Put her into a small nuc and drove into a remote yard away from people - hopefully a breeder queen for next year.
She is my best VSH daughter-queen and yet not good around people.
Stay back in the woods!


----------



## GregB

Helped my "student" to split his bees - we did my brood-less style split for him.
Meanwhile removed some drone brood.
Wow - look.
This is after a very good winter with a single OAD and a double-brood-break.
These bees are loaded already.
I mean to stop next weekend (before they cap anything) and give a doze of OAD.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> Helped my "student" to split his bees - we did my brood-less style split for him.
> Meanwhile removed some drone brood.
> Wow - look.
> This is after a very good winter with a single OAD and a double-brood-break.
> These bees are loaded already.


Yikes! Have seen worse, but now is a good time to clean out all the drone brood, before those buggers get a chance to spread. I cut out a bunch of drone brood last week when I split my colony. Did not find a single mite. The hive had OA towels on all winter, and new towels placed this spring.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> My younger son is the mower boy now (took over from the older son).
> Well, he is fussy around my ever-so-friendly backyard bees.
> Now he sees that cooler with flying bees (pic above) - and gives me all kinds of crap...
> "I mean, Dad, you have bees flying out of the trash boxes?! What is wrong with you!!??"
> "Freaking bees are everywhere!"


 We live to embarrass our kids.


----------



## GregB

If anyone remembers that VSH queen I used to complain about.
She was doing that shot-gun brood when younger.
This one:









Well, well she is now going into her 3rd year and does rather a nice pattern.
The difference is, I recon, that *clean (re)start methodology *(not many mites).
I don't bother measuring, but the difference is clear to see.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> The difference is, I recon, that *clean (re)start methodology *(not many mites).


Makes good sense to me. I am reminded of Dr. Martin's and Dr. Spivak's suggestion that VSH colonies will continue to remove infested cells even as the colony dwindles, suggesting that above a certain level of infestation it becomes a battle of attrition- a war that is very expensive for the bees.


----------



## msl

GregB said:


> The difference is, I recon, that *clean (re)start methodology *(not many mites).





Litsinger said:


> a war that is very expensive for the bees.


A good example of a hive thriveing VS surviving 

I wonder how much of this a result of clean starting that hive, VS clean starting the entire apiary and lowering the areas mite load/drift


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> A good example of a hive thriveing VS surviving
> 
> I wonder how much of this a result of clean starting that hive, VS clean starting the entire apiary and lowering the areas mite load/drift


Since my entire operation is distributed across *seven *locations - I am very much a subject to general area trends.
On my main VSH location I wintered four colonies (average to excellent wintering).
This is where the VSH matriarch located.

As well, my backyard co-location is 1/2 mile away from the VSH yard - *also cleanly restarted*.

Certainly, the VSH matriarch was a subject to 
1)clean restart *twice(!)* last summer (I shook her out *twice *+ OADed) and 
2)the entire VSH location was cleanly restarted and
3)my nearby co-location was cleanly restarted.

Otherwise, the area's mite load is outside of my control and is a *random *factor.
But for certain - *without *clean restart, any of the swarms I caught in the past (including Russian-like bees, sniff) - all or nearly all of them died over the first winter.


----------



## SeaCucumber

I have some hives low in pollen. I'll take an image to show a VSH style pattern.


----------



## GregB

> #1 - VSH survivor queen - A
> 
> #2 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - A
> 
> #3 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - A+
> 
> #4 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - A
> 
> #5 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - B
> ---------------------------
> #7 - daughter of VSH survivor queen - B
> 
> #8 - random swarm queen - B-
> 
> #9 - daughter of a random swarm queen - F
> 
> #10 - random swarm queen - A+
> 
> #11 - daughter of a random swarm queen - C-
> 
> #12 - daughter of a random swarm queen - B+
> -------------------------------
> #13 - the hive of my "student" - B


Since I got sucked into this mini-farm project (kinda pre-planned), I figured I report on it time to a time.

I have four minis going.
Two are just resource minis
Two are the main minis - to experiment with small-scale queen production.

The resource minis - queens #9 and #11 - low quality queens but fine for bee production (so I can steal bees for wherever in the mini-farm I need them).
The main minis - queens #1 and #10 - I want to produce daughters from these queens.

Every mini was made by brood-less splitting away and OADed.

Initially I meant trying to force the swarm cells.
Now I have second thoughts as this approach takes time and not fully controllable (whereas some scheduling is important).
So thinking to try conventional splitting of my minis - because I can.

Why minies, again?
Because I don't want to pull too many bees away from the main production (splits and honey) as unnecessary and too expensive.
I feel small, mini-hives are sufficient to produce good-enough backyard queens (where each mini is not bigger than 1-2 Lang medium frames in comb space).
If this works, less than 5% of the total bee-force is busy in the queen-making project (which is a good deal as I prefer any full-size colonies to be actually working on the honey flow).
Notice, I don't count conventional splits here (those are also making their own queens, just a part of splitting).


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Why minies, again?


This is arguably the most resilient feature of Kirk Webster's program- so if it works for him up in Vermont, it stands to reason in my mind that it would work well for you too.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> Since I got sucked into this mini-farm project (kinda pre-planned), I figured I report on it time to a time.
> 
> I have four minis going.
> Two are just resource minis
> Two are the main minis - to experiment with small-scale queen production.
> 
> Why minies, again?


The only drawback (for me) is the degree of control I would have to maintain. A mini needs careful watching and timing, or else you would see useless tiny swarms flying off all the time. My work schedule generally allows me a fair amount of free time, but when I am working it is 12-13 hour days several in a row. Sleep and work only.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> The only drawback (for me) is the degree of control I would have to maintain. *A mini needs careful watching and timing,* or else you would see useless tiny swarms flying off all the time. My work schedule generally allows me a fair amount of free time, but when I am working it is 12-13 hour days several in a row. Sleep and work only.


Yes.
Hence the minis live on my back-porch and the co-site #2 a half-mile away.

As well my mini-nucs (as I mentioned) are *larger *what is commonly discussed/envisioned.
My #1 - #4 are 7-frame minis (this is about 2-3 medium Lang frames).
So even looking inside once weekly is sufficient.
However, one needs to be predicting what is to come one week from today - that goes without saying.

For example mini #1 is really tight in space now as the bees are hatching.
This is fine and exactly what I need.
Yesterday over lunch break I shook out three frames of bees and dumped them into mini #4 for reinforcement.
This is will be repeated until the #4 is bursting with the bees.

Mini #4 is my most valuable mini (this is the VSH matriarch!) and needs to be made very strong and done so quickly now (mid-June!) - this is where the resource minis #1 and #2 come in.

The VSH Mom finished her drone production project - there is plenty of VSH drone for the season in my residence! (good job Mom!).
Now the Mom is in the mini-farm herself - enough of the boys, now give us some girls!


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> Combined a mini with a queen-less hive tonight.
> Took a mini:
> View attachment 58141
> 
> Wrapped the frame where I found the queen (screen on side/triple newspaper the other side with few knife slashes) - this is essentially the queen cage now
> View attachment 58143
> View attachment 58145
> 
> Dropped into the hive (dropped all the other frames too, those covered with bees; the "queen cage" is standing on the top).
> View attachment 58147
> 
> Done.
> 
> This hive already killed one queen (I missed a darn QC).
> Fingers crossed - this combine works out.


This is an old post but pulling it up to clarify one line specifically, at it applies to the combine using standing frames from a mini.
This line: "*Dropped into the hive (dropped all the other frames too, those covered with bees; the "queen cage" is standing on the top)*."
View attachment 58147


Here is the schematics of it:


----------



## GregB

Remember that hive got hit by a shrew over the winter?
GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees. | Page 67 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums 

Well, they recovered from that hammering despite my poor projections.
Today I split them 3-ways as it was setting up for a swarm.

No particular expectations from this little and remote yard #4 (except the land-lady enjoys my bees on her property and there is nice forage). 
This is primarily a back-up location for my VSH line and nothing more. The second year queen (mated in October) is kind of a dink by the looks and very hard to find (but I did!). But she hold her own just fine.
Moved her to the left hive into a brood-less split and OAD'ed them.


----------



## AR1

[QUOTE="GregB, post: 1920054, member: 121144"
[/QUOTE]
Prefer heavy cream, myself. Don't buy the half and half anymore.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Prefer heavy cream, myself. Don't buy the half and half anymore.


That half and half carton shows - I have not looked at the hive for about a month. It was some syrup left in it since May. Like my hive setups that way.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> This is primarily a back-up location for my VSH line and nothing more. The second year queen (mated in October) is kind of a dink by the looks and very hard to find (but I did!). But she hold her own just fine.


It is amazing to me what an overwintered colony (no matter their late winter mass) can do in the Spring if they are healthy and have access to good forage. Glad to read the updates about your burgeoning population.

Now that you've got your arms wrapped around your new varroa management strategy, are you planning to monitor mite levels and tease-out resistance characteristics in your continued selection efforts toward TF?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> It is amazing to me what an overwintered colony (no matter their late winter mass) can do in the Spring if they are healthy and have access to good forage. Glad to read the updates about your burgeoning population.
> 
> Now that you've got your arms wrapped around your new varroa management strategy, are you planning to monitor mite levels and tease-out resistance characteristics in your continued selection efforts toward TF?


Hey Russ,

#1 - comment about the colony sizes.

I feel this is dis-service when non-commercial beekeepers are continuously fed this idea of *huge colonies in Feb/March*. This is nothing more but commercial beekeeper business model applied and touted about right and left without regard.

There is no one really to blame but rather we must continuously hammer that everything is 1)locality driven and 2)business goal driven (business in wide sense). What makes all kinds of sense for larger commercial folks - makes little sense for the little, hobby folks and small, local, niche sideliners.

Whereas, a modest/small colony of location appropriate and healthy bees will totally explode when it is properly due . (YES! - my context is always about the Northern region as I don't know much else).

#2 - comment about "continued selection efforts toward TF?"

So much to do - so little time! 

I have been thinking about this one - how to approach the problem where I try to avoid any extra little bit of work while actually still moving the needle in the right direction. Even running about between my 7 locations, testing every colony for mites in September is a chore and will kill my weekend (remember - the weekend is meant for everything here, including fishing and harvesting apples).

Since my work is weekend-based - every weekend slot is very expensive and drives my priorities.

So, I am thinking of just following the sledge-hammer approach which includes:

continue my *two treatments per year* regiment - no exceptions
these two treatments per year are integrated into my general work which include a brood-less state for each colony mid-summer (implemented by expansion/recovery splitting) - no exceptions
rating of the wintering success of each colony in two large groups - VSH lineages (however diluted it becomes) and random swarm lineages (including my own raised random queens)
last winter season showed that even very roughly - overall the VSH group has shown better wintering success (where even small VSH colonies held their own in pretty crappy conditions whereas very strong random colonies failed or nearly failed)
per the previous experience, the wintering test of sufficiently healthy bees (based on rather minimal treatment) - shows the desirable queens vs. the undesirable queens for my location
fined tuned selection based on the mite counts (while more proper) is not really required of me;
so the 1)minimal treatments and 2)wintering-based weeding out (combined together) will constitute my program going forward for the time being.
For the season 2022, I identified four 2021 queens and one 2020 queen (the VSH breeder) that I will try to carry into 2023 season. One of these keepers is a random swarm capture - the main reason I enjoy the swarm trapping - never know what you gonna get!

Rest of the surviving 2021 queens (ALL of them did!) are used as temp resources OR are for sale.
The most crappy random queens (per their wintering) are not for sale - but good enough to serve as bee-making resources (which is of value).


----------



## GregB

Btw, the Lloyd Street bees (good friends) welcome me coming over and mating few virgins at their location. This is something I failed to do last year - just had no bees in time. Hopefully, this will happen this year. Importing and mating virgins *at desirable locations* is a big deal IMO (largely overlooked and even hardly known, here in the US).


----------



## GregB

Yesterday spent about an hour talking to a new beek.
She bought a typical package at Farm&Fleet in spring.
She almost predictably failed (talking mid-June!).
Same old - queen failed/colony died.

I did advise her about local bee sourcing (even mentioned myself). 
But with me, I don't have ready nucs/packages sitting on a shelf - waiting for customers at their leisure. Does not work that way.

Unsure if she'd be willing to wait for me create a split for her.
They, most of the new customers, want immediate satisfaction (similar to kids). Unfortunately, the current industry conveys this exact idea - it serves the immediate satisfaction.

But it takes time for me to create and start a *brood-less *split, so that I can properly *pre-treat* it for the customer (!!!!). She may choose a ready nuc (available elsewhere) which will come with its own pre-loaded mites and most likely this new beek will fail over the very first fall/winter. Which I explained but this idea she did not seem to be grasping.


----------



## GregB

While at it, wanted to make another comment.
This is about poorly wintered colonies from my "random set".

What makes them similar is:

they kept brooding late
they restarted brooding early
these are desired traits for common commercial, Italian-like bees (especially the *early *brooding).

Just this.

Very briefly:

when accompanied only by only limited, weak treatment (like with me) those sub-optimal brooding traits make such colonies to be generating higher mite loads
clearly, such colonies keep propagating mites late into the season and restart the mite propagation early on (while also making effective treatments more difficult).
so, just the more desirable brooding trends for the resident northern bees alone should work better in conjunction with the limited treatments

This is the blurb - mostly directed against importing the Italian-like bees into Northern locations.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Even running about between my 7 locations, testing every colony for mites in September is a chore and will kill my weekend...


@GregB:

I definitely understand where you are coming from here. That's why I find the single-metric evaluation protocols so appealing- while you may not develop a complete picture of what is going on, at least you have an outline and something definitive to make selection decisions by.

Currently I continue to employ the 72 hour mite drop assay as my main metric- but even as relatively non-obtrusive as this is, it took over 6 hours yesterday to get the protocol initiated- allowing another 2 hours to count mites on Tuesday makes for 8 hours. This 4 times a year equates into a good chuck of time to maintain this assay.

That said, the alternative is to do nothing- and based on all I have learned, this is not a viable option for resistance selection.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> That said, the alternative is to do nothing- and based on all I have learned, this is not a viable option for resistance selection.


Yes, the do-nothing certainly does not work for me. 
I end up with dead bees.

But evaluation/selection based on (1)*the minimal treatment baseline *(just to keep the bees alive) and (2)the winter survivability test - now we are talking achievable business.


----------



## AR1

Litsinger said:


> @GregB:
> 
> That said, the alternative is to do nothing- and based on all I have learned, this is not a viable option for resistance selection.


Or, to do random things, hoping to get lucky, and not really knowing which random thing you did was what actually 'worked', or if it was all luck. I think that's why so much interest in 'feral' bees. We are all hoping Mother Nature does the work for us!


----------



## Litsinger

AR1 said:


> We are all hoping Mother Nature does the work for us!


Well she certainly has been in the selection business much longer than we have- might be able to teach us a thing or two...


----------



## GregB

So, I was busy in my locations #1 and #2.
But this post is about - why it is worthwhile having an empty nuc in your bee-van (bee-truck) at all times.

I checked a couple of hives for the brood-status - still brood - too early to do the OAD.

But in one of the hives I found a perfect storm of a virgin queen running about on a killing spree. She stung one of her sisters (in the QC still) right in front of my eyes. There were other QCs with already killed queens and half-open.

I quickly ran to my van, pulled an empty nuc and placed the frame with the killer into it - away from any other queens, hopefully still alive.

Sure enough, one frame over there was another spunky virgin - running around too, looking for her victims.

Anyhow, made two ad-hoc mating nucs on the spot (from one initially).
Hate doing the queen propagation this way, but the source hive is difficult to handle. I just split it up and call it done.

Here is a quick video of that blood thirsty, rusty-colored thing. One can see the cell she stung thru just 2-3 minutes prior.

(48) Virgin queen on a killing rampage. - YouTube


----------



## GregB

Momma VSH is done with the drone project - a full hive of them to the right.
She now resides in a little foam cooler - to the left.
Will see how this daughter generation project will turn out (AND standing frame technology test run too!).


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Here is a quick video of that blood thirsty, rusty-colored thing. One can see the cell she stung thru just 2-3 minutes prior.


That video is pretty cool...


----------



## squarepeg

greg, i am somewhat familiar with the 'appalacia bees' you have posted about. in your review are you finding that term has caught on and being used in that way to reference the background genetics in these ecoregions?


----------



## GregB

squarepeg said:


> greg, i am somewhat familiar with the 'appalacia bees' you have posted about. in your review are you finding that term has caught on and being used in that way to reference the background genetics in these ecoregions?


No, I don't see the term being used anywhere.

In my view, I myself actually came up with the term just in my Beesource rants (this is by analogy from the "primorsky bees" - in many respects this is a very similar story in development).

I am sure someone else could also have come with the same term and the same notion independently - because it is becoming rather obvious by now just by following the Beesource (if one to follow for long enough).

For example, here in Northern Midwest - we can not really point at any wide-spread and consistent testimonials of some sort of localized bee. On the contrary, the Appalachian states as a whole region seem to produce a steady flow of such testimonials.

Similar for the Southwest region (Arizona, etc).
Time to start talking of the Southwestern bee population yet?

Same for the certain Southern region too (Alabama, etc).

In general, IMO, any regions that stay out of the main bee trafficking highways - have an opportunity of some localized bee developments. Which we seem to be talking about.

And on the contrary - the main bee trafficking regions are not really producing any localized bees stories, naturally.
Look at the Dakotas and Northern Midwest - too much churn over and migration is going on.


----------



## squarepeg

understood, many thanks for the reply.

i am located in the northeastern most corner of alabama, technically southern appalacia, just up the hill from the tennesse river, and this particuar ecoregion extends on up through tennessee the virginia's and on up into southern pennsylvania. (the skinny dark green one on the map below).

observations lead me to conclude that the stock I and others are adapted to local conditions, in that their colony operations preceed environmental conditions by about a brood cycle. that, and with proper management winter losses are usually less that 30% sans mite treatments, comparable to what other beekeepers utilizing conventional methods are seeing.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> In general, IMO, any regions that stay out of the main bee trafficking highways - have an opportunity of some localized bee developments.


I think Greg gets to patent the term 'Appalachia Bee'. That said, Ms. Dorothey Morgan and the Heartland Honey Bee Breeders tend to use the term 'Ohio River Valley' bee, which I think SP falls into. Map and description of their swarm trapping targets included in the post linked below:



Litsinger said:


> LANDSCAPES FOR SWARM TRAPS: PHOTO: Map of Ohio River and it’s Major Tributaries. Experience shows Feral Honey Bees live within 50 miles of a River, with Woodlots ages of 75 to 100 years and Excellent Natural Nutrition For Pollinators. Also no MANAGED BEES within 10 miles of the area you are locating Swarm Traps.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> Similar for the Southwest region (Arizona, etc).
> Time to start talking of the Southwestern bee population yet?


Probably not just yet. I did read a paper that explored the genetics of SW feral bees, and they found some interesting genetics, lots of 'O' haplotype, if I recall correctly, which is not common in commercial bees, nor in other parts of the US.

But the SW is still in churn with Africanized bees. Until that stabilizes, for me there isn't a distinct SW (or deep south) bee. It may already be stable, or stable enough genetically to be identifiable as a distinct type, but I doubt it. The "A" bees came in in around 1990, so only 30 years.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> and they found some interesting genetics, lots of 'O' haplotype,


Hmm. 
Lots of Caucasian bee imports happened some places.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> Hmm.
> Lots of Caucasian bee imports happened some places.


It's a fairly small % compared to C linages in most places. I'll have to look up those papers again.


----------



## squarepeg

was this the one ar1? (see attachment)

deborah delaney's dissertation was a similar study looking at mitotypes of feral bees in the southeastern united states. i've lost track of my copy of it and have requested another one.


----------



## AR1

squarepeg said:


> was this the one ar1? (see attachment)
> 
> deborah delaney's dissertation was a similar study looking at mitotypes of feral bees in the southeastern united states. i've lost track of my copy of it and have requested another one.


Not that one. A quick search finds this one:


Sci-Hub | Genetic Diversity of Feral Honey Bee (Hymenoptera: Apidae) Populations in the Southern United States. Annals of the Entomological Society of America, 87(6), 842–848 | 10.1093/aesa/87.6.842


----------



## squarepeg

many thanks ar1. thats an older paper i had not seen before. delaney's dissertation on similar topic was around 2008.


----------



## AR1

squarepeg said:


> many thanks ar1. thats an older paper i had not seen before. delaney's dissertation on similar topic was around 2008.


I have seen several papers recently on this topic. I went through a phase a few months ago where I read a lot on the African bees, and caught a variety of similar studies then.


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## squarepeg

understood. what caught my attention in the delaney dissertation was the large number of amm mitotypes she found in the southeastern united states. the old timers around here still remember catching swarms of 'german black bees', which were notoriously mean, but very hearty and exceptional honey producers. (and who do not trace their lineage to commercially produced queenlines).


----------



## AR1

squarepeg said:


> was this the one ar1? (see attachment)
> 
> deborah delaney's dissertation was a similar study looking at mitotypes of feral bees in the southeastern united states. i've lost track of my copy of it and have requested another one.


Delaney's thesis:
Microsoft Word - total_thesis.doc (wsu.edu)

Interesting that all the many queens sold are descended form just a few hundred queens.
'...as a whole, the honey bee breeding industry uses a small number of queen mothers (less than 600) to produce nearly 1 million replacement queens for beekeepers in the U.S. (Schiff and Sheppard 1995, 1996)...'

And, the one I was looking for:
Mitochondrial-DNA-Variation-of-Feral-Honey-Bees-Apis-mellifera-L-from-Utah-USA.pdf (researchgate.net)


----------



## squarepeg

agreed. for a lot of successful species the mitochondrial matrilines can be kept for eons. humans are a prime example. we also get our mitochondrial dna soley from our mothers, and all trace our genetic matriline back to an 'eve'.


----------



## GregB

OK, my minis are over-flowing with the bees.
Last night I reshuffled everything around.

What you see on this picture was making swarm cells because they did not any space left (that was the picture is about).
Unfortunately, this NOT the lineage I care about.

So, this became a queen-less unit with several mini-frames taken from the mini with the desired queen.
I want to see how well they create QCs - and then mate them.
If need more bees, will shake in more bees - I got plenty of bees on this mini farm.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> I got plenty of bees on this mini farm.


Plenty of bees means plenty of options- good on you.


----------



## GregB

There was a question about wintering in the minis.
Survey - number of days between hiving the swarm and detecting the first eggs/brood | Page 2 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums

YES - I, in fact, want to try wintering few queens directly in the minis.
People are doing it even in wooden minis.
Foam mini should be totally adequate for a small but healthy colony (if not TOO warm).

A matter of fact, I would LOVE to upend this old historic dogma of mandatory wintering in double-triple deeps (at least at my location that is the case).
This way of wintering is way, way too expensive in the situations where you simply want to persist the genetic material from one season into another season.
Not to mention that regular 5-6 framers winter great also (but that is closer to the traditional, honey-minded operation).

If a bee/queen propagation-minded operation can successfully and easily overwinter multiple queens on the cheap - this is a no-brainer thing to do.
Moreover, I am so very glad to have (accidentally!) starting my mini-farm in early spring.
At this rate, just persisting the core mini-farm through all seasons makes all kinds of sense.

Sort of like so - 3-frame foam minis:










Here is a whole video on the subject:

(118) Результат потепління. ( 12.12.2017р.) - YouTube


----------



## GregB

Anyway, yesterday I got a hold of a dozen F2 virgin queens - my own, unplanned production. 
Fine.
It is either bees or honey.
It will be the bees for that particular site.

Good thing the land-lady of this site is very watchful and reports to me anything of interest (I incepted a swarm with a virgin thanks to the timely tip).

So yeah, last two days I was frantically setting up mating nucs and fixing queen-less colonies and hurridly making more mini-frames - using this queen windfall.
I also mean to take some nucs to a TF beekeeper to have few virgins mated at his yard.

All of this is aside from my pre-planned queen raising.
When it rains - it pours!


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> I also mean to take some nucs to a TF beekeeper to have few virgins mated at his yard.


Done it this early morning!
Four mating nucs are at the Lloyd Street Bees mating site.
Hopefully 150 mile round trip will be worth it (and another 150 miles to get them back).

One of the nucs also contained a caged spare queen - well, it was needed.
The original queen turned up dead at the destination point.
So I released the backup one.

The backup virgin is really a dink I did not know what to do with, but she is well liked by the bees (go figure!) and should capture the genetics just as well.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> If a bee/queen propagation-minded operation can successfully and easily overwinter multiple queens on the cheap - this is a no-brainer thing to do.


I like your idea, Greg. I figure if Kirk Webster can do it in Vermont it should be able to work where you're at too, right?

Not to mention that when you throw the highly-insulated hive bodies into the mix you've got another thing that I expect would work in your favor.

Just thinking out loud- how much would a locally-raised overwintered Northern queen be worth in April where you're at?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I like your idea, Greg. I figure if Kirk Webster can do it in Vermont it should be able to work where you're at too, right?
> 
> Not to mention that when you throw the highly-insulated hive bodies into the mix you've got another thing that I expect would work in your favor.
> 
> Just thinking out loud- how much would a locally-raised overwintered Northern queen be worth in April where you're at?


I am pretty bullish, Russ.
Of course, I have been bullish before! LOL

But it appears I am on route to have lots of extra queens this year as more are pending.

So - the plan is really to figure out a way to be continuously having a supply of spare queens around the season.
Thinking ahead, I can see setting up 5-10 larger coolers (6-9 mini-frames each) and just go for it.
I don't know of anyone having this done (not exactly in *my trashy way*) - while the mini nuc wintering is nothing new in general.

Considering that my mini-frames are 1/3 of a conventional Lang med frame - 6 mini-frames ~ 2 Lang med frames (9 mini-frames ~ 3 Lang med frames)
These are miniscule hives, but yet arranged in efficient cuboid geometry (NOT inefficiently stretched thin along the conventional frames) and also superbly insulated.
The only unknown to me is if my ventilation will be sufficient during winter time OR I need to increase that.
To be found out.

The April prices?
Yep - I would love to have *locally* mated and ready queens at ANY time a year for anyone local.
And locally mated - I mean mated at a *good quality mating facility *highly saturated with quality drones (NOT mated to junk almond drones sold with packages).

Those who run queen batches do have the queen storage problem too, to have them readily available at any time.
Here is another fundamental issue - everyone has the queens at once or nothing at all.
So at issue is ability to efficiently park and maintain the queens at the most minimal cost and effort (while predictably and reliably).

I wonder about the pricing too - but we need to get there first.
It should not be cheap (but yet still sellable).

Pretty much this entire thing is consistent with the idea that we *NEED truly local bees (readily available at all times).*
First and foremost.
TF comes after this - much more *basic and yet fundamental problem.*

Pretty exciting if you think of it.
The only one thing gets in the way - conventional thinking based on 19th century knowledge.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> One of the nucs also contained a caged spare queen - well, it was needed.
> The original queen turned up dead at the destination point.
> So I released the backup one.


I was wondering if I made a mistake here.
I meant to carry a spare queen in my pocket, but ultimately decided to have her in the nuc (caged) - thinking that the conditions would be better.
I don't know how the other queen ended up dead (she was my first choice).

Just theoretically thinking maybe she got killed because there was another virgin available to the bees (much better liked by them, even if caged).
I am not aware of the queen issues that the bees are acutely aware - I am going to trust their judgement on this one.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> Four mating nucs are at the Lloyd Street Bees mating site.


----------



## GregB

*Queen parking (tm).* 

Changes in brood pattern | Page 2 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Pretty much this entire thing is consistent with the idea that we *NEED truly local bees (readily available at all times).*
> First and foremost.
> TF comes after this - much more *basic and yet fundamental problem.*


Thanks for the feedback, Greg. It will be interesting to see how this project turns-out. You may be on to something- just make sure you get your marketing team on it so you can make mint when it takes off!

It seems that having queens/nucs available on a similar timing to Southern offerings will be the only way to make appreciable progress on local adaptation.

I'll look forward to reading about this development.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> The only one thing gets in the way - conventional thinking based on 19th century knowledge.


To clarify - by this passage I point at the old formula where wintering on 2-3 deeps is required (that is per a queen, of course).
Crazy expensive.

So, OK, we can do the same using conventional 5-6 framers - still expensive!

Now if we can park the queens long-term on just 2-3 medium frame equivalent - that is becoming more reasonable.


----------



## ursa_minor

GregB said:


> Now if we can park the queens long-term on just 2-3 medium frame equivalent - that is becoming more reasonable.


So would you winter them in groups in another styrofoam box?


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> So would you winter them in groups in another styrofoam box?


No, just straight outside should be fine here.
Anchored down from the wind!

But also (especially for you!) - they are light enough to carry into a shed/garage/basement.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> So would you winter them in groups in another styrofoam box?


Here is an example of my winter-ready styro-cooler (7 framer here).

The upper box is for extra insulation AND extra ventilation (IF needed) AND feeding (either liquid OR hard) AND just the utility space.

OR a second tier of frames (say, I need to combine some units - I will just stuck them up here and done).


----------



## AR1

A 5 frame (Lang) nuc works just fine here. The 2 deeps plus a medium of food is...not crazy, but not needed. Be very interested to see how the mini-nucs work for you.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Thanks for the feedback, Greg. It will be interesting to see how this project turns-out. You may be on to something- just make sure you get your marketing team on it so you can make mint when it takes off!
> *
> It seems that having queens/nucs available on a similar timing to Southern offerings will be the only way to make appreciable progress on local adaptation.*
> 
> I'll look forward to reading about this development.


Yep.
This is a general issue and should concern anyone.
Every time people order a queen (with or without a package along with it) *outside of their locality *- that is a step back.

One thing is if they *mean *it - fine, that could be a legit case (how else can I import resistant stock to my place?).
But another thing is that they have *no choice *(which happens way too often).


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> *A 5 frame (Lang) nuc works just fine here.* The 2 deeps plus a medium of food is...not crazy, but not needed. Be very interested to see how the mini-nucs work for you.


Per a queen.
OK, you can have 2-3 queens caged in it - but that is another technical challenge (that funky caging business).

So when the only valuable part in the entire setup is *a single bug* - wasting entire set of 5 deep Lang frames for it is not reasonable IF it is not required.
Especially if on the same comb space (bees included) you can park 2-3 queens.

Me too - interested.
Making a 6-8F cooler-hive takes 5-10 minutes (assuming the tools are handy - seriously, it takes longer to walk around finding a knife, tape, a piece of wire screen, and a drill).

Once I have a sizable stock of my mini-frames built-up (still catching up) - it is going to be crazy.
I wonder how many active hives I will have by September. 😬


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> I wonder how many active hives I will have by September. 😬


Depends on the definition of 'hive' I guess.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Depends on the definition of 'hive' I guess.


Correct.
This is all new stuff to me, folks.
Call it revolutionary.

And the beauty of the thing - I have not spent a penny yet this year on the bees (though nothing new about it).
Also, this year I consider I finally paid for all the gas burned and tools and supplies I got during the previous years.
Exciting. Nothing to sniff at.


----------



## Tigger19687

@GregB have you had any chewing on the styrofoam from the bees?
Or so you roll on a layer of wax on the inside of the cooler?

Makes me wonder why not make a long hive out of super thick styrofoam to save on weight and get the good insulation.


----------



## GregB

Tigger19687 said:


> @GregB have you had any chewing on the styrofoam from the bees?
> Or so you roll on a layer of wax on the inside of the cooler?
> 
> Makes me wonder why not make a long hive out of super thick styrofoam to save on weight and get the good insulation.


They chew some.
For sure they try to widen the little 1/2" entrance I drill for them (I slow that process down by applying tape on both sides of the entrance hole).

But one needs to understand - desire to widen the space and chew around is a function of a *colony size.*
Once the little foam cooler is packed to the brims - they will try to chew around more.
But this situation is a trigger for me to do the next step - to split them up so to raise a batch of queens.
Else they will try to swarm anyway.

NO - I don't bother with any extra work (layer of wax inside, etc).
It is extra work and hassle for me, and not worth it anyway.
It takes 5-10 mins tops to make a new replacement cooler hive (as long as you have spare coolers, which I have many).

I am yet to see a bees chewing through the cooler wall (which I have been told many times about - by people who *never actually tried this*).
Even then, the fix is trivial - quick tape over.

Speaking of larger foam hives - we discussed this topic to death over the winter.
People do it with good success (production XPS hives).
Search around.


----------



## GregB

In a couple of days I need to fetch my minis back from the Lloyd Street mating yard.
If even 2-3 of these mated normally, that is a good success in capturing the desired genetics.


----------



## GregB

Made another starter unit few days ago.
This is only on *four* mini-frames (three of those are largely eggs and wet brood from my desirable queen #10).
The idea is for these queens-to-be - mating to the drones from the desirable queen #1 (based about 0.5 miles away).

Also I am testing how good this mini-environment is to be producing good queens from the scratch.
The setup is really tiny but yet packed with the bees to a very good density.


----------



## GregB

Isn't she a beauty?
This thing is satisfying when a new queen of desired lineage started laying eggs (with hopefully recaptured some of desired genetics).
All of this is taking place in a toy hive with toy frames and a couple of scoops of bees.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> All of this is taking place in a toy hive with toy frames and a couple of scoops of bees.


Nice looking queen, Greg.

@Gray Goose and I were talking about how there is likely a nice niche market for mini nucs. If nothing else, they will be reasonably easy to make, relatively easy to transport and presumably lower cost.

Those made early and given a little help can build up to overwintering mass and later starts would be helpful for late season queen replacements- laying queens tend to make for easy combines in my experience.

Good stuff- I'll look forward to continued updates.

Russ


----------



## Knoxville1

Greg, are you cutting open brood out of the hive of your desired queen? And then how do you mount the comb in your little frames?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Nice looking queen, Greg.
> ................
> Good stuff- I'll look forward to continued updates.
> 
> Russ


Pretty much this means I should have up to 11 newly laying sister-queens of this particular batch, as we speak (grand-daughters of the VSH matriarch).
At least some of these will continue their service in the mini-farm for now - I simply have no other capacity for them.
But the mini-farm is easily expandable (visit to the recycling dumpster is in order though!).
More wood trash is to be cut into the mini-frames.

Will probably advertise too.

There are more queens in the pipeline too.
Many more. 😬


----------



## GregB

Knoxville1 said:


> Greg, are you cutting open brood out of the hive of your desired queen? And then how do you mount the comb in your little frames?


Not at all.
This is all frame-based (or call it container-based - the same).

I got two desired queens now running in 7-8 mini-frame coolers.
As they get tight - I harvest frames of suitable queen-raising status (lots of fresh eggs) and create queen-less units out of them.

To get more bees into the queen-less unit (if need to), I raid a stand-by resource mini-nuc and steal from it what I need - bees/brood frames/both.

An example of this is just a couple of posts above (#1685).
Pretty much each mini-frame should result in a queen (or 2-3 queens if I insist).

How I mount - two ways:

the obvious way - the bees just build new comb (in tight quarters, they jump at any empty insert and build in like crazy) - I do attach a tad of wax/comb to a starter strip.
I also recycle any crap combs I saved aside (I save aside any crap as they are all useful); chunks of crap combs are inserted and secured by painters tape (ideally worker cell, but anything goes)

Here is a typical recycle of crap - it works.
People are all crazy about any little dent in their combs - whatever. Picky, picky.
I go by what bees want - they want it all and have use for it.

Pictured is another small frame (different project - but it works the same in my minis too.
Some moldy crap as I forgot those combs in a tight container over the winter (should have had them in open air).
But this is my last supply of crap combs.


----------



## GregB

Here is blank construction (from a tiny piece of starter comb).


----------



## GregB

Here is recycled old comb - just roughly fitted into the frame and held in place with the painters' tape.
You can see the bees attached it to the top bar - there used to be a gap.


----------



## GregB

Here is my current queen #10 home (source of genetics).
See how three of the frames have recycled comb (see those tapes); the other three framelets are originally blanks.
They live in a cooler originally used to transport Omaha Steaks.


----------



## Knoxville1

Thanks for all the pictures and splaining.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> But also (especially for you!) - they are light enough to carry into a shed/garage/basement.


so Greg I have read the old days they put bees in the cellar.
so is there a way to put the bees inside the garage, or basement, where it is a bit warmer, make a "screen" porch for the cooler hive ,, like maybe an empty plastic water bottle in the entrance hole with small " 1/32" holes drilled, in the top 5/8 of the bottle and in the bottom 1/3 place sugar water. pack in some straw,,, combo porch and feeder, that dis allows bees to leave the hive. in your price range.... add a few ml of feed with a syringe, every week or 2.

document well what position in the yard they had,, and if a warm spell happens, put them out there for a day or 3 then plastic bottle back on and back in the garage or basement.
food and temperature would be the only road blocks, for wintering the minis, worth a try at getting thru the issues to have the queens in spring.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> so Greg I have read the old days they put bees in the cellar.
> .......
> 
> GG


In fact my Dad did exactly that.
But with bigger/heavier hives.
It was overkill IMO - based on what I know now.


Will see, GG.
First I will make sure they have those little framelets packed with honey and/or syrup.
There is another potential issue - mice.
They can easily chew through those coolers if they want to.


----------



## Knoxville1

Greg why are you leaving so much space on the end ? Between the frames and wall. Is it the same on both ends?


----------



## Gray Goose

my guess
frame size constant
cooler size variable.

GG


----------



## William Bagwell

Gray Goose said:


> my guess
> frame size constant
> cooler size variable.


Agree. Now if I just knew someone rich enough to afford Omaha Steaks  Supposedly putting "Erick" in the search bar gets you a discount...

Thread jack: Miss Erick, since he took over for Rush seldom get to hear his show.


----------



## Gray Goose

this cooler idea is not new
google "styrofoam nuc boxes"
If you wish to use your Lang frames.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> If you wish to use your Lang frames


This is the only part of the mini nuc idea I struggle with- transferring them to full-sized frames.

For Kirk Webster, it works because the primary purpose is catching queens- but if I were wanting to sell functional units I might be inclined to overwinter 2 or 3-frame nucs in highly insulated cavities. 

I'll have to research how Kirk transfers these overwintered units when he's replacing deadouts.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> my guess
> frame size constant
> cooler size variable.
> 
> GG


Correct.
The frame size was initially set to fit smaller coolers.
This size:










Then I realized, I need to grow some of these nucs.
It became like this (notice how I reduce the smaller nest in a large cooler using cardboard pieces - works great).









Then I realized - it does not matter - with a standing frame I can do whatever the hack I want.
I can run bees from a suitcase.

As I already spoke the "standing frame" talk - extra space does not matter much UNTIL the cooler is packed with the bees.
Then they will start filling the extra space with wild comb.
Then you need to expand in to a bigger box OR split.

BUT the empty space can be filled as well with:

extra mini-frames - that's right - the frames can be just stood up cross-crossed - does not matter, bees still use them (just look at the wild nests for examples)
cloth, burlap, plastic, or any other similar filler
I fill extra space for a smaller units in larger coolers - to keep them more confined and warmer.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> this cooler idea is not new
> google "styrofoam nuc boxes"
> If you wish to use your Lang frames.
> 
> GG


It is not.
But the coolers are "cooler"! 
Because they are to be had for free - unlimited supply.
I hate when vendors sell me junk made from foam (which I am getting tired of pulling from trash - too much trash as it is).


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> This is the only part of the mini nuc idea I *struggle with- transferring them to full-sized frames.*
> 
> For Kirk Webster, it works because the primary purpose is catching queens- but if I were wanting to sell functional units I might be inclined to overwinter 2 or 3-frame nucs in highly insulated cavities.
> 
> I'll have to research how Kirk transfers these overwintered units when he's replacing deadouts.


Here, Russ, comes the hang up with the so-called "standardization".

The issue being - the so called standard frame is NOT optimal (for sure not for small-size colonies).
Remember - that entire standard frame came from a fruit tray sizing (NOT the bee nest ergonomics).

My mating nucs on large, full-size frames are doing just so-so (even when reduced) - too much space they need to handle.
Meanwhile the cooler-minis - once they are queen-right and are functional - explode, just as they should (indication of the good energy profile of the cavity).

Now - even with my accidental framelet sizing, it fits *internally *into a standard Land deep frame (two per a regular frame).
So the framelets can be just installed inside a regular frame and used to combine hives or winter in regular sized equipment.
Will post some pics - just as soon as I cut more framelets - I ran out again.


----------



## GregB

William Bagwell said:


> Agree. *Now if I just knew someone rich enough to afford Omaha Steaks*  Supposedly putting "Erick" in the search bar gets you a discount...
> 
> Thread jack: Miss Erick, since he took over for Rush seldom get to hear his show.


Don't you have a dumpster near by?
Or check the Craigslist now and then for free coolers.
My Omaha Steaks boxes are pulled directly from a Styrofoam recycling bin.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Now - even with my accidental framelet sizing, it fits *internally *into a standard Land deep frame (two per a regular frame).


Thanks, Greg. To clarify, I wasn't critiquing your methods - I think it's really cool.

Just thinking through the mechanics in my own operation and what to do about transferring a laying queen and brood. Your frame-in-a-frame could certainly be the ticket. I'll look forward to seeing it.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Thanks, Greg. To clarify, I wasn't critiquing your methods - I think it's really cool.
> 
> Just thinking through the mechanics in my own operation and what to do about transferring a laying queen and brood. Your frame-in-a-frame could certainly be the ticket. I'll look forward to seeing it.


Not a problem.

Yes - think of the method when framelets for comb honey are installed *inside *the regular frame.
Then those framelets removed to be sold.

I did not think of of the frame-inside-frame initially.
I was targeting the coolers I had on hand.
But, certainly, you can target is frame-inside-frame approach - then size your framelets with that in mind.
With freely standing framelets, you should still be able to find containers of suitable sizes to run the bees in the mini-mode.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> In a couple of days I need to fetch my minis back from the Lloyd Street mating yard.
> If even 2-3 of these mated normally, that is a good success in capturing the desired genetics.


So, indeed, only 2 of the 4 properly mated and now laying - as marked (50% success).
The other two units decided to supersede their virgins and produced some random runts instead - which I left alone for now (as place holders).

I have to trust the bees in that my virgins failed to meet some expectations or maybe got damaged.
It was good I brought four mating units so to make this project worthwhile.
In the future, I will risk similar project with at least 4-5 mating nucs (more is better).

Now need I to baby my two specially-mated queen into successful wintering - in anticipation of something interesting or special.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> BUT the empty space can be filled as well with:
> 
> extra mini-frames - that's right - *the frames can be just stood up cross-crossed* - does not matter, bees still use them (just look at the wild nests for examples)
> cloth, burlap, plastic, or any other similar filler
> I fill extra space for a smaller units in larger coolers - to keep them more confined and warmer.


Spillover frame in the side gap.
No problem.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> Now - even with my accidental framelet sizing, it fits *internally *into a standard Land deep frame (two per a regular frame).
> So the framelets can be just installed inside a regular frame and used to combine hives or winter in regular sized equipment.
> Will post some pics - just as soon as I cut more framelets - I ran out again.


Here you go.
Select your orientation.
Use tape or rubber band.
Deploy.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Use tape or rubber band


Definitely duct tape .

Thanks for the visual- makes good sense to me.


----------



## GregB

So what is a big deal with these framelets anyway?

The big deal is that one can practice backyard queen propagation 1)cheaply (counted in bee resources) and 2)continuously as needed/desired.

Meanwhile the bulk of bees can work where the bulk is really needed - the honey harvest.

You can see on the pictures (here and above) that two framelets nominally amount to a single Lang medium frame (my version anyway - this is still subject to adjustments).











A successful mating nuc (*insulated, foam nuc* - to be clear) can contain only 2 of these - which is *a single Lang frame measured in comb space.*
3 framelets is also a good version - to allow for some expansion/comb building, when a mating nuc is left at a remote location for longer.

Conventionally, a mating nucleus is a 2-frame unit based on *two Lang deep frames *(or Layens/Dadant/Ukrianian frame).
This is *two-times* the bee resources diverted to mate a queen.

The resource hives in the mini-farm context are also tiny (in the Lang context) - they amount to 3-4 medium Lang frames at max - which hardly makes sense when using conventional equipment.
Like this queen-less unit I am preparing so to insert 1-2 frames of eggs from a desirable source - it amounts to 4 medium Lang frames (in conventional sense).











The idea of grafting and raising batches of queens seems in vouge at the moment.
But the thing is - this requires tight time management (not good for everyone) and you have to deal with significant batches of queens where you need to quickly handle many of them at once (not necessarily convenient if no pre-planned sales are in the pipeline).

But I can see how (using a mini-farm approach), a backyard beek can be continuously producing and mating queens just using 1)traditional splitting approaches with 2)the minimal diversion of the resources away from their honey harvest goals. You can produce new queens by one-two-three at a time - continuously and on flexible schedule (say - vacations!) and do it for as long as the favorable mating season continues (for me July through August and into September).

So that's the rant.

Yesterday, I was reshuffling some bees around (great fun too - excellent for the kids btw) and took this picture.
Just a nice brood framelet - produced by a junk queen which I written off as a failure in spring.
Well, I am rethinking that definition as any junk queen all of a sudden presents value in the mini-farm games.


----------



## ursa_minor

I think, like many new things, educating the public will be key. Teaching them to either pre-plan, or have the patience to wait for their nuc to be made and the queen settled in and laying. We are in a time of wanting immediate things or results.

I do deep hives but I can see where making mini mating nucs like this could give me options to sell either mated queens or full nucs that fit langs. I already use 90 degree turned med. /deep langs for brood areas so adding a frame of brood, stores and pollen into the nuc for sale is certainly doable and would allow me to keep my deep hives going. I just love working them. 

Something to ponder over the winter for sure.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> Here you go.
> Select your orientation.
> Use tape or rubber band.
> Deploy.
> 
> View attachment 70424
> 
> 
> View attachment 70425


I would likley use a "standard" handle size ( a ruler works well) and make a jig for the 2 mini frames so there is no space to build comb but in the framelet.
then one could take the best queens over winter, and use the jigs to get comb build and brood installed in them, maybe even made queen less to have QC starts.

what you have works, buy my engineer brain would want a better fit.

certainly with the same amount of bees you can make 3 to 5 times more queens. so great process for your queen rearing.

However screwing with the little frames and screwing with 4-6 more 20 frame hives IMO is a similar time slice so for me today the 5 frame NUC boxes do the trick. when they work I can get a 5 from 1 split to work. actual resources you may have me beat.

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> what you have works, buy my engineer brain would want a better fit.


Once you plan ahead - sure.
What I am doing is a *retro-fit.*
Which came about as an* afterthought. *
Now take the idea and the working prototype - and use it as it fits you the best (tolerances, etc)

One immediate practical effect of the stand-by mini-farm.
So about 3 weeks ago now (I mentioned that) - I caught a swarm situation in some hive (a desirable queen too).
As of today per my record - I successfully mated *ten queens* out of that incident (including two of those in a quality TF mating yard).
Lost two virgins out of the batch (was 12 in total).

Made three standard size nucs (by directly mating in them).
Re-queened/salvaged two problem hives.
Have five mini-units with freshly laying queens that are on stand-by status (just letting them grow for now and see what to do next with them).

Pretty much this was afforded by two dinky mini-resource hives standing by - pretty darn good.
Like it.


----------



## crofter

You have written a fair bit about benefits of 6 frame boxes in various combinations. They nicely house half frame langs crossways etc., for mini nucs.

Knowing what I do now and without the consideration of having pre existing equipment, I would make different choices than the deep and medium 10 frame equipment that has outgrown my ability to handle. If your focus is predominantly honey you may choose differently than if you want to sell nucs or bulk bees. Again if your season is short and your shot at the market would dictate wintering over many queens for spring sales then something just barely big enough for this should be part of your equipment. Grozzie2 has posted on this for his market in northern coastal British Columbia.


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> Again if your season is short and your shot at the market would dictate wintering over many queens for spring sales then something just barely big enough for this should be part of your equipment.


I was very pleased when I saved a failing queen (with her remaining 20 bees) in the middle of nasty, cold spring (typical here).
See: GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees. | Page 79 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums 

She is now the backbone of the mini-farm project and great at it.
Thanks to the proper equipment. 
It was an eye opener for me - in the context.
Basically, shows that a similar operation can be done in a hostile environment (cold/short summer, for example).


----------



## Gray Goose

crofter said:


> You have written a fair bit about benefits of 6 frame boxes in various combinations. They nicely house half frame langs crossways etc., for mini nucs.
> 
> Knowing what I do now and without the consideration of having pre existing equipment, I would make different choices than the deep and medium 10 frame equipment that has outgrown my ability to handle. If your focus is predominantly honey you may choose differently than if you want to sell nucs or bulk bees. Again if your season is short and your shot at the market would dictate wintering over many queens for spring sales then something just barely big enough for this should be part of your equipment. Grozzie2 has posted on this for his market in northern coastal British Columbia.


Frank
I am leaning toward 
"all of the above"
why limit to honey only.
NUC is the next step for me, I did a few this year to break the ice.
I can see from there queens are just a short hop.

GG


----------



## squarepeg

hmm, overwintering nucs for spring sales. good idea, many thanks frank.


----------



## AR1

Well Greg, I went and made 4 of these mini frames. How much do I owe you for the patent royalties?

Took me a while to find a solution. Looked around for a while, realized I didn't have any wood sized for something like this, spent some time ripping a large board. Got tired of that fast, handsaw, no power saw. I have some not-yet-assembled lang deep frames. Took a few of those, shortened the tops and bottoms. Finicky bits were cutting the grooves to fit.

They are sized to just fit into a deep nuc sideways, so about 7 inches across the top and 9 deep. I have a bunch of unused nucs this year. Not to think on what to do with them. Still just enough time left this summer to make up some mini nucs/queens.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Well Greg, I went and made 4 of these mini frames. *How much do I owe you for the patent royalties?*


A lot?
LOL

As a reminder - my frames consist of a single uniformed piece of wood.
Last weekend I cut up some trash into ~100 framelet pieces - got a pile of these.
Then I gradually staple together few frames when I have time (like yesterday stapled seven more as I was out again).



GregB said:


> I only cut *one, uniformed *piece of wood.
> That is it - one piece to prep for the frame construction.


Standing Frames | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


----------



## GregB

I ended up using one the EZ nuc boxes to carry around my mini-nuc supplies - just perfect.
A good supply of framelets and pre-cut cardboard follower boards is always there to fetch and plug where needed.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> A lot?
> LOL
> As a reminder - my frames consist of a single uniformed piece of wood.
> Last weekend I cut up some trash into ~100 framelet pieces - got a pile of these.
> Then I gradually staple together few frames when I have time (like yesterday stapled seven more as I was out again).
> Standing Frames | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


Now to do the dirty. Plan is to move the queen into the mini nuc with a bunch of nurse bees. Each frame has a bit of comb already. Then, do a flyback! That is probably excessive, I expect the mini to be covered with bearding bees. After a day or two or a few days, move the mini far away and let them go to work. With the flyback I am expecting full frames of new comb in just a few days.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Now to do the dirty. Plan is to move the queen into the mini nuc with a bunch of nurse bees. Each frame has a bit of comb already. Then, do a flyback! That is probably excessive, I expect the mini to be covered with bearding bees. After a day or two or a few days, move the mini far away and let them go to work. *With the flyback I am expecting full frames of new comb in just a few days.*


Sure.
They get shocked - for a bit.
Then they jump to work like crazy (similar to a swarm).
Especially if packed well.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> Sure.
> They get shocked - for a bit.
> Then they jump to work like crazy (similar to a swarm).
> Especially if packed well.


Oh, they are packed well! Pic posted soon on my thread.


----------



## Knoxville1

I set these two mini nucs up today. They have a caged queen and a shake of bees, and comb in each frame. It came up unexpected. I'm not sure where the best place to put these mini's is. Do they need to be protected from raccoons? I set them up inside two ten frame deeps. Good idea or overkill? Or can they be left out in the open with a brick on top?


----------



## GregB

Knoxville1 said:


> I set these two mini nucs up today. They have a caged queen and a shake of bees, and comb in each frame. It came up unexpected. I'm not sure where the best place to put these mini's is. Do they need to be protected from raccoons? I set them up inside two ten frame deeps. Good idea or overkill? Or can they be left out in the open with a brick on top?


It is not an overkill IF you have an animal issue.

On my part I have been lucky and I don't bother with extra precautions.

However, IF one of these is to be set in some remote wood place - setting it like you did is a good idea.
It just never occurred to me as I had no need (yet).

Here is how my yard #2 is arranged - seven minis are there.
But this little patch of woods is surrounded by a busy suburb (means little though as the racoons are everywhere, even in downtown).


----------



## farmer9989

A few more ideas on were to obtain the boxes diabetic insulin is shipped in them also so if you know someone that orders on line also they have different freezer packs some I've gotten were plastic 3/4" /5"/5" perfect for making small feeders out of .


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## GregB

Here is an indication that the bees are getting tight - time to upgrade to a bigger home (OR split OR divert some bees away).
This piece of cardboard is a shield between a face of a framelet and the cooler wall.
I now insert these cardboard pieces so to give the bees something to chew on when they get to that point (typically associated with overcrowded coolers).

Bees are trying to make space to fit in yet another comb - that what that pile of bees is doing - building a new comb.
I rehomed them to a bigger cooler since.


----------



## GregB

Also started taping over the internal front wall as it is the place that the bees tend to start chewing on at first (it is the place of the highest traffic and congestion).
Nothing terrible, but the wall reinforcement takes few seconds and few pieces of tape - why not just do it.


----------



## GregB

This mini-farm thing is now at 15 units and is growing.
I ran out of all the larger coolers.
Raided the dumpster again.


----------



## GregB

When your minis are on/around your back-porch, just over your 10-minute coffee break you can make a split and add a queen to it - you made yourself a whole new hive. LOL
Exactly what I did this morning - quickly slapped together 2F mating nuc.
Had to deal with yet another accidentally missed virgin I caught yesterday (she probably killed the queen I *actually *meant for that hive - grrrrrr......).

With many queens on hand, the queens losses here and there are not that terrible (but the time and effort lost does count).
OK, I will mate this runny thing in my backyard because I can - to, hopefully, catch few VSH drones.
Then will see about her - she does look good, just not of the desired lineage.

Unsure why one of these two vids is classified as a "short" and the other as a "regular video" (probably a size criteria does that).
Quick manipulations while having beer (or coffee - your choice) in one hand. 






(194) Working a mini - YouTube


----------



## farmer9989

i do think a little paint drop paper glued to the inside and exterior paint on the out would be more work but would make them last considerably longer.


----------



## GregB

farmer9989 said:


> i do think a little paint drop paper glued to the inside and exterior paint on the out would be more work but would make them last considerably longer.


Yes; agree.
It takes some work.
I may do a couple this way, just so see.
The only gripe - that immediately takes 5-10 mins to have a ready-to-go hive to 1-2 hours (drying time included).


----------



## Nicksotherhoney

@GregB I love the mini cooler hives but I don’t understand the framlets.. and bee space. If the framlets are square and wax drawn how do the bees go from point A to B? Please shed some light on this for me. Thanks I’m advanced!


----------



## GregB

Nicksotherhoney said:


> @GregB I love the mini cooler hives but I don’t understand the framlets.. and bee space. If the framlets are square and wax drawn how do the bees go from point A to B? Please shed some light on this for me. Thanks I’m advanced!


OK, here.

Exhibit 1.
Notice all the passages I marked in red.
This is a typical natural comb framelet.










Exhibit 2.
Bees travel Frame A to Frame B through the passages indicated in the Exhibit 1.
What we have is a loose hive made of the framelets that is contained inside some outer container (EZ nuc in this case).

Also, notice I don't really care of the framelet wood width too much - compare the Frame A to Frame B (they are different).
By now I have a mix of framelets ranging anywhere from 1" to 1.5" wide - whatever free wood scraps I get and cut up - goes.
It does not really matter.
I mix them freely (in fact, prefer to mix the narrows between the wides - just because the natural cavity combs are very similar if people do bother to study the pictures).

Also, the 1" framelets plug perfectly into narrow slots and the bees use them just the same for skinny combs.
Just another hang-up coming from the standardized commercial thinking - not that important, in fact


----------



## Gray Goose

Nicksotherhoney said:


> @GregB I love the mini cooler hives but I don’t understand the framlets.. and bee space. If the framlets are square and wax drawn how do the bees go from point A to B? Please shed some light on this for me. Thanks I’m advanced!


nick
the "framelet" is the hive.
it is a "hive section"

then the stack of frames is placed in a cooler, small amount of bees big amount of insulation, and the wind & 
water proof part.

so they leave small paths thru the comb mostly at the edges. to get from frame to frame.

GG


----------



## GregB

So how do you make queens with the mini-farm?

Easy.

Build up a unit with the desirable queen to the point that they are getting ready to swarm (too tight!).
Move the queen over into a new unit - so she can start a new project again
Let the bees create QCs
After the QCs are capped - split the queen starter 2-way - each around a framelet with selected best QCs (I target to leave the two best).
Go about your business or leave for the vacation what not - while a new queen will hatch and mate.
50/50 splits are bad, are they not?

Not really IF your entire parent colony amounts to four Land medium frames (by the comb space).
You split it into two frame halves.
While this is nothing but an old fashioned 50/50 split - this is done using minimal resources and away from your main business-line and done on flexible/relaxed schedule over the course of several weeks.

Why not do the 33/33/33 split?
I concluded I prefer stronger mini-colonies running on not less than 4 framelets (equivalent to 2 Lang med frames) - bees just do better.
Though I do have some 3F units too - to temporarily park a queen or mate a queen.
A bit stronger colonies are desirable still.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> So how do you make queens with the mini-farm?
> 
> Easy.
> 
> Build up a unit to the point that they are getting ready to swarm (too tight!).
> Move the queen over into a new unit and let them create QCs
> After the QCs are capped - split the queen starter 2-way - each around a framelet with selected best QCs.
> Go about your business or leave for the vacation what not - while a new queen will hatch and mate.
> 50/50 splits are bad, are they not?
> 
> Not really IF your entire parent colony amounts to four Land medium frames (by the comb space).
> You split it into two frame halves.
> 
> While this is nothing but an old fashioned 50/50 split - this is done using minimal resources and away from your main business.


I will be attempting this again...next year, after I have had time to make some mini frames and gather a few coolers.


----------



## GregB

I got pretty handy keeping the smaller colonies tight and warm in over-sized coolers too.
Just close in the back-end of the framelet row with a piece of cardboard.
Jam it all with Styrofoam chunks.
Cover everything with plastic or fabric.
Works pretty well as the bees pack into the framelet space and stay there.

This way a smaller colony feels comfortable in a larger space until they fill it all.


----------



## GregB

Another way to split:

make a resource mini queenless (move the resource queen away)
make them hopeless by removing any QCs after few days
give 1-2 frames of eggs from the desired queen.

I have tried this too - but takes longer as it takes time to make them hopeless.
AND I missed some well hidden undesired QCs and, thus, botched the project and wasted time - as the bees refused to grow queens of my choice (while the days went by waiting).

After futzing about some, I prefer to just grow the desired colony to the crowded situation - up to 8-10 framelets and then grow the native queens directly in the mother colony.
Then split the mother colony into N mating nucs (stand by resources are very handy to steal bees from).

Of course, the crowded situation can be easily forced too - just by adding bees from the resource colonies and making the mother cooler overcrowded.
The crowded pre-swarm situation can be created every 1-2 weeks - or even ad-hoc (IF enough resource colonies are standing about) - however the life situation permits, a new batch of queens can be pushed out.

It can get very busy too and takes some tracking anymore.
Somewhere about 10-20 of these mini is about enough for this game.

On the mini-farm I got 16 separate units right now:


two genetic providing queens
old VSH queen was recently re-homed and is building up
random catch black queen is approaching a splitting status again - unsure if I want to repeat again or not

two resource queens
one new VSH queen
two queens mated on away VSH yard
three mated queens of my own - standing by
two queens in the process of mating
four colonies with capped QCs
three queens have been used to repair hives already (lost one of those in the process due to a missed QC and a subsequent virgin killer)
These are on top of 17 full size hives and conventional nucs.
Pretty crazy for my scale.


----------



## drummerboy

Amazing! GregB takes the craft of keeping bees to another level. Can't wait till winter when I have time to review this thread 'again' in anticipation of making preparations for next year.

Goldenrods have begun blooming - so our season is nearing its end and supers will soon be removed (seems early?)....pulled over 300 lbs of onions yesterday (growing right next to bee yard) with roughly the same amount of garlic to be pulled next week. Like our bees, both those crops seem 'late' this year, likely due to colder than average nights throughout the summer...so far. Its August and we still haven't harvested a single 'red' tomato. wasupwidat?

OK, back to the grind. Thanks GregB!!


----------



## AR1

drummerboy said:


> Like our bees, both those crops seem 'late' this year, likely due to colder than average nights throughout the summer...so far. Its August and we still haven't harvested a single 'red' tomato. wasupwidat?
> 
> OK, back to the grind. Thanks GregB!!


Got my first tomatoes yesterday. For us it was spring that was late. Summer has been fine so far. No corn yet, but that's on me, got the garden in very late.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Got my first tomatoes yesterday.


Tasted the first tomato over the weekend.
Just one. LOL.
Also two yellow zucchinis and three cucumbers.
This is a crazy late season - 2022.

But pretty soon it will be a dump of the veg crop - can't wait!
Peaches too!


----------



## drummerboy

We can get a killing frost by mid September unless we row cover heavily, so timing is critical right now. 

Crazy weird is descriptive of this season so far (globally, apparently). We're still having nights in the high 40's, low 50's (days in the 80's) which will probably result in tough skinned 'warm loving' crops like tomatoes and peppers....but its true, zukes are busting it big time....I can smell the onions and squash pan frying if I close my eyes


----------



## GregB

I feel I am done with the queen raising projects for summer 2022.
The coolers work great. To be continued....
Any small scale beek can do it.
Highly recommend playing with this method.

I have more queens than I may ever need - sold off two more last week.
Could make more queens, but just feel lazy.

Decommissioned one of the queen-less mating units last night (broke apart and scattered the frames around the mini-apiary).

Have 13 cooler hives on hand still

2 resource minis - to be decommissioned (resource queens to be sold for pennies or donated or tossed into the queen juice jar)
1 old VSH breeder queen - going into her 3rd winter
1 old random breeder queen - going into her 2nd winter (AFAIK)
1 new VSH queen acquired from Lloyd Street bees (hopefully a new breeder for me)
2 new queens mated at the Lloyd Street bees
3 new F1 VSH queens from the old VSH mom
3 new F1 random queens from the old random breeder

All new queens mated locally should have captured back some of my own VSH drone material.
To be seen.

Pics of my VSH mini-farm.
Five more of these in my backyard - the random queen mini-farm.


----------



## GregB

Meanwhile I also have a mix of 15 full size hives and conventional nucs.
This is way too much work. 
I don't even care to harvest the honey.
Maybe I will nib around the edges here and there as the fall progresses - at least to give some fresh crop to my landlords.


----------



## joebeewhisperer

GregB said:


> Here is recycled old comb - just roughly fitted into the frame and held in place with the painters' tape.
> You can see the bees attached it to the top bar - there used to be a gap.


It’s crazy how they can build out from any direction. I tend to think from the top down. But they do what they think necessary.


----------



## GregB

joebeewhisperer said:


> It’s crazy how they can build out from any direction. I tend to think from the top down. But they do what they think necessary.


Yep.


----------



## GregB

So I got COVID and was kind of sickly over the weekend.
But only kind of.

It rained on Saturday - a good thing for everyone and everything. 
Good nap time.

By Sunday afternoon I got an itch to check the status of my honey hives.
Even though I don't bother harvesting the honey until when I have time for it - it is important to keep the supply of empty combs handy for the bees.
So I went around, pulled few capped frames and replaced them with empties.
Fingers crossed for warm and humid late summer.
Golden rods are just now starting and hopefully they will give enough nectar for my favorite late honeys.


----------



## GregB

Who says you need supers?
No, you actually don't.
Not with the long hives.


----------



## GregB

But on the other hand, you surely can - super the long hives too.


----------



## GregB

People were being concerned IF the bees would chew through my coolers.
So in at least one instance they actually did.
But the cooler itself too was on a softer side too.
Some coolers are really hard; but then other coolers are rather soft.

To reiterate - this is just an indication of a strong colony that gets crowded.
Subsequently, I already split this colony into the halves - part of my queen rearing.
But here you go - those "dreaded" holes that I don't particularly care about.
Once the feeding season starts, I may plug these holes up or just replace the cooler entirely.


----------



## squarepeg

i've come to believe that bees prefer mulitple entrances to their cavity in order to facilitate ventilation.


----------



## GregB

squarepeg said:


> i've come to believe that bees prefer mulitple entrances to their cavity in order to facilitate ventilation.


My coolers have ventilated bottoms to facilitate ventilation.

What I think is happening - there is an optimal ratio of the colony size to the cavity size.
Once this ratio less than optimal (too tight), the bees become annoyed and try to resolve the issue (including making additional vents/entrances if they only can).


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> Who says you need supers?
> No, you actually don't.
> Not with the long hives.
> 
> View attachment 70822
> 
> 
> View attachment 70823


Wow! I never thought of that! 
Will the bees find it hard to keep the temperature right with an open roof, though?

Way to go on thinking "outside the box" Greg!


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> Wow! I never thought of that!
> *Will the bees find it hard to keep the temperature right with an open roof, though?*
> 
> Way to go on thinking "outside the box" Greg!


Why do you think the roof is "open", BJ?


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> Why do you think the roof is "open", BJ?


Oh, did you remove the lid for the inspection?


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> Oh, did you remove the lid for the inspection?


Why, of course.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> So I got COVID and was kind of sickly over the weekend.
> But only kind of.


Good. Seeing few covid cases in the hospital, since late February.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Good. Seeing few covid cases in the hospital, since late February.


Basically, moderate to light cold/flu case.
I can live with that.
Probably the vaccinations did help some - I want to think that (since my reactions to COVID shots were pretty hard, then the immune systems did get some training).
If we can continue with COVID management similar to flu management - pretty much we can live with it.
At least I can now officially state - I had it.


----------



## squarepeg

GregB said:


> My coolers have ventilated bottoms to facilitate ventilation


i don't claim to be a ventilation expert greg, but it seems to me that more adequate ventilation will be achieved if there are openings situated on opposite ends of a cavity, so that the air can more effectively be moved 'through' the cavity. it's interesting to note that your colony chose to open up a 'vent' at the top, opposite of your ventilated bottom.


----------



## GregB

squarepeg said:


> i don't claim to be a ventilation expert greg, but it seems to me that more adequate ventilation will be achieved if there are openings situated on opposite ends of a cavity, so that the air can more effectively be moved 'through' the cavity. *it's interesting to note that your colony chose to open up a 'vent' at the top, opposite of your ventilated bottom.*


Correct.
BUT - this is only one case out of about 15 units.
By no means this is a predominant trait.
I have other packed colonies that have not done the same.

ALSO(!) - this "chewy", termite-like colony was actually headed by my #1 VSH breeder queen at the time.
Those bees are of my relatively feisty VSH lineage that I try to maintain.

Just by observation (and especially looking at the cooler project now) - I have steady impression that some of the bees are definitely more "chewy" than the others.
The trait to behave like termites to a degree may very well have a connection to the VSH trait.

Some other bees are very reluctant and/or indifferent to chew on the foam.
A good possible test could be - if and how significantly the bees enlarge their main entrance through the foam wall - because they easily can.
Some bees hardly care; other bees really bite into the foam....

An example of pretty chewy bees.
I start them all with a 1/2" hole (standard drill bit hole).
This hole has been enlarged up to 1.5" and more already.
That notorious "wall washing" is really occurring in the entrance holes as they work them bigger.


----------



## squarepeg

understood greg. just sayin'... 

i have always provided a top vent on all my hives, (screened as to prevent shb, wax moths, and brooding at the top). i feel it makes life easier on the colony for a variety of reasons, i.e. controlling the environment inside the cavity, drying honey, elminating excess moisture in the winter months, ect....

just because you have only seen this occur on the one hive doesn't necessarily mean your other ones wouldn't benefit from such a modification... your bees, up to you man.


----------



## GregB

squarepeg said:


> understood greg. just sayin'...
> 
> i have always provided a top vent on all my hives, (screened as to prevent shb, wax moths, and brooding at the top). i feel it makes life easier on the colony for a variety of reasons, i.e. controlling the environment inside the cavity, drying honey, elminating excess moisture in the winter months, ect....
> 
> just because you have only seen this occur on the one hive doesn't necessarily mean your other ones wouldn't benefit from such a modification... your bees, up to you man.





squarepeg said:


> but it seems to me that more adequate ventilation will be achieved if there are openings situated on opposite ends of a cavity,


On the other hand, making a screened vent on the opposing end of the cooler is very easy too. 
Extra couple of minutes in the construction.
I may do this mod for 1-2 units and observe.
They are free to propolise it shut as well.

Since several of these coolers will go through the winter - this is uncharted territory - is additional ventilation a pro or a con.


----------



## squarepeg

yes, it would be interesting if you are able to see a difference, i.e. less bearding, faster capping of honey, ect.

i have screened top vents on the front and back, some get propolized shut and unpropolized open throughout the year.

i also put a half inch of pink foam board at the top for wintering, in order to prevent condensation from forming on the 'ceiling' and dripping back down on the cluster, that along with the vents is a huge 'pro' for me. not sure if that's a consideration with your foamies or not...


----------



## GregB

squarepeg said:


> prevent condensation from forming on the 'ceiling' and dripping back down on the cluster, that along with the vents is a huge 'pro' for me. not sure if that's a consideration with your foamies or not...


Not a clue - will see.
But in general I don't have the "dripping" issue here - that is resolved by heavy insulation of the top (my standard).
A slab of XPS onto the foamie - it will be plain toasty I think.
To be found out.


----------



## GregB

So another day I picked up a piece of broken children's' furniture by the road side.
Since I am out of framelets totally, cut the toy up and made me another batch of my own toys.
This must be the last batch for the season.
Just so it happened - a perfect fill for EZ nuc

Instead of fixing two hives in bad need of repairs, I spend the summer making framelets.
Fun though!
As I was working on this, trying to finish before dark, I was thinking - this is how the frame construction ought to be - simple, quick, effective.
Tolerant to less than perfect construction too as it does not matter that much to either me or the bees.
Larger frames should be just as simple and quick - same number of cuts and staples.


----------



## jtgoral

squarepeg said:


> ...
> i also put a half inch of pink foam board at the top for wintering, in order to prevent condensation from forming on the 'ceiling' and dripping back down on the cluster, that along with the vents is a huge 'pro' for me. not sure if that's a consideration with your foamies or not...


Half of an inch? I put 2 inch of XPS (R-20) as a roof insulation and a top cover in Chicagoland. But you are as far north as Lebanon  . Vent holes at the top of the hive kill the idea of insulation. You can put insulation in the attic and it helps your HVAC as long as you have your upper floor windows and doors closed, during both: winter and summer. Bees are HVAC in the hive.


----------



## GregB

jtgoral said:


> Vent holes at the top of the hive kill the idea of insulation.


Generally, in wooden hives this is true.
Specifically with the coolers - we don't know.

I tend to agree with you, jtgoral.
But these coolers do have one significant difference from the wood - near zero water permeability through the walls (which is significant for the wood).
None of the water vapor will go into the foam.
I have no idea how these will play out.

Just in case I think about half the coolers I will convert into more conventional wooden setups (conventional nucs) - those where I have more valuable queens.
Not ready to use some of the queens for my cooler testing.
And btw, I should just as well keep all of my junk queens alive too - exactly for the cooler winter testing (brand new idea as of just now).


----------



## squarepeg

jtgoral said:


> Vent holes at the top of the hive kill the idea of insulation.


as greg alludes to the idea is to provide an escape for moisture build up resulting from respiration by the cluster.

the colony can do a much better job at keeping warm than it can to remove excess moisture.

all it takes is a small vent, just below the top, opposite to the side the entrance is on, and making the entrance small for wintering as well.


----------



## jtgoral

squarepeg said:


> as greg alludes to the idea is to provide an escape for moisture build up resulting from respiration by the cluster.
> 
> the colony can do a much better job at keeping warm than it can to remove excess moisture.
> 
> all it takes is a small vent, just below the top, opposite to the side the entrance is on, and making the entrance small for wintering as well.


Screened bottom board or holes are for the purpose of removing condensed water and provide ventilation. Look at the design of poly BeeMAX or Paradise hives (I have both). Bees do not have to remove moisture at all, they drink it from the walls.


----------



## squarepeg

jtgoral said:


> Screened bottom board or holes are for the purpose of removing condensed water and provide ventilation. Look at the design of poly BeeMAX or Paradise hives (I have both).


i'll confess having neither experience nor knowledge wrt sbb or the hive designs being discussed here.

greg, are planning to overwinter with screened bottoms?

also, it occurred to me after posting last night that my telescoping covers hang over the vents that i have cut into the front and back sides of my inner covers, thereby preventing rain from blowing in through the vents...


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> Why, of course.


Ooops. Sorry bout' that.
Nevermind.


----------



## GregB

squarepeg said:


> greg, are planning to overwinter with screened bottoms?


Why, yes.
As I demonstrated, my coolers do have vents in the bottoms.
To be clear, the vents are on the smaller side vs. the entire bottom been the screen.

Also there is a nuance - the framelets of my design prevent a lot of the free air movements (see pictures).
So this is not a conventional bottom-ventilated hive.

I hope this setup will work just as I want it to work - with very minimal technical twicking.
The ideal outcome is when we observe that the bees can comfortably live in conventional foam coolers year around.
This is with the absolute minimum customization/investment (where the reusable framelets being the most expensive and labor intensive part).

The winter testing will be exciting.

Here is a good picture that shows all the hard work done to setup a foam cooler for beekeeping:

two holes - one small and one bigger
piece of window screen
a little bit of painters tape and/or duct tape to hold it all together


----------



## squarepeg

ah, not what i had envisioned greg. that very well could work as a wintering set up. still think your colonies would have an easier time with an upper vent during the honey season. having access to the moisture created will allow them to dilute the stored honey as they consume it keeping warm during your long wisconsin winter. thanks for sharing.


----------



## GregB

squarepeg said:


> ah, not what i had envisioned greg. that very well could work as a wintering set up. still think your colonies would have an easier time with an upper vent during the honey season. having access to the moisture created will allow them to dilute the stored honey as they consume it keeping warm during your long wisconsin winter. thanks for sharing.


Not a problem.

Now another nuance - I don't particularly care if and how much honey these colonies will make.
Some of them have made several framelets of honey (being without laying queens for long enough) - not a problem at all.
I need to take some pictures on those cute framelets.

But these are primarily queen raising and maintaining units.
Ideally also *maintaining *queens around the year in my climate - one of the primary goals of my mini-farms.
Their honey collection is not a critical concern and not required.

Not to mention these colonies are small and I continuously interrupt their normal work and make up by the changes required for the queen raising.
The "natural beekeeping" purists should just kill me for what I am doing - this is nothing but bee torture (as it may appear).

For the winter I will feed them and/or will simply toss in chunks of sugar cakes.
As a matter of fact, I anticipate feeding these units by *dry sugar* will be optimal in winter.
If confirmed, successful wintering on dry sugar will be another huge benefit for the setup - low hassle.


----------



## GregB

Another note - bearding with my coolers is not generally an issue, UNLES (and this is obvious!) - they don't really fit into the box too well anymore.
Of course I like to shade all my bees; good afternoon shade is my SOP.
None of my hives are being baked all day long.

Here is a bearding cooler - about the time I moved the breeding queen away to force raising the new queens.
So I meant this colony to be overcrowded and tight for better new queen quality (basic ABCs of queen raising).
The end result was good - I am happy with the two new VSH queens that came out of this iteration.


----------



## squarepeg

understood greg. the dry sugar will also help to some degree with absorbing excess moisture if there is any.


----------



## GregB

squarepeg said:


> understood greg. * the dry sugar will also help to some degree with absorbing excess moisture if there is any.*


Exactly.


----------



## farmer9989

GregB thank you for all you do to inspire us 
this guy has queen rearing down , interesting videos , 







https://www.youtube.com/user/agustinportajero


----------



## GregB

One of the things people always complain - how their nucs get robbed.
Well, with proper configuration nucs don't get robbed.
Because the entrance will look like this.
Go ahead and sneak through the log jam.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> Well, with proper configuration nucs don't get robbed.


The proper configuration.
With this setup, the entrance is always well attended and guarded, even in a weak colony situation.

The entrance should be made so to look at the center of the very first comb.

Compare this to the "traditional" nucleus setups (and "traditional" hive setup in general).


----------



## GregB

Did not mean it, but I am making another little queen batch (up to three if I choose that many).

Today is September 1st - but I am not worried even a bit - I know in my somewhat northerly location mating in September is a non-issue.
Too much mythology about late mating issues - enough said already. Until locally tested - you don't really know your reality.

A queen-less nuc rejected an outside queen after all the waiting I have done (more than a week).
Just another spare queen that came from combined hives - low value to me.
Wanted to hold her as a resource/give-away.
Well, the bees had other ideas.
OK, fine.

Gave them a framelet from my breeding queen mini - they started three cells.

An observation over the duration of this summer project - they definitely prefer making the queen cells *on the edges of the comb*, whatever it means. They are less inclined to build cells on the face of the comb in my natural comb setup.

Probably this means better access and better construction ergonomics.
Others will repeat again - the bees are choosing older larvae.

Whatever - I observe that queens derived this way are totally fine for my uses. Which is what Sam C. is doing anyway with very good results - I do nothing different from him.

Queen cell locations are marked.


----------



## GregB

Overall this has been an excellent summer - no dearth to speak of since May.
Warm.
Periodic rains on good schedule.
July flow gradually moved into August flow and now into September flow.

Here is a picture of a container with some honey in it - I left it outside by accident for few hours, wide open. 
Right next to one of my minis.
No bees.


----------



## crofter

It has been hit and miss here. For sure you can quickly tell if they are getting a good natural source. Some days I can leave my garage door open and the bees ignore the assorted honey sources inside. Other days there would be thousands of bees in there in minutes.


----------



## GregB

So I think I will move some of my minis into regular nuc hives.

Reason - some of the mini-coolers are *too tight* for the winter - there is more space needed for 1)feeding and 2)insulation and 3)air pockets.

I tried this approach (pictured) and quickly ditched it - too cumbersome.
Had I ready Lang boxes/tops/bottoms - I'd try the slanted Lang setup (see Alternative hive designs talk) - but I don't have any deep Lang boxes on hand.


----------



## GregB

Instead, I inserted additional insulation to all sides and the floor of my regular nuc body - and simply transferred the framelets into a taller box, exactly as they are (horizontally). 3-4 of the minis will get transferred like this and will winter in the conventional equipment (with added insulation).

This hive










Is now this hive


----------



## GregB

OK today I finally finished another Lang conversion into a hybrid hive.
It was a half-rotten hive I inherited for nothing.

Going to be a square 9-10 frame deep brood chamber.
Above it will be supered up conventionally.
I made it separable (unlike my earlier designs) - basically it is held together by pegs. But I can take everything apart by a hive tool, if want to.

The original boxes are so rotten, holes are everywhere as the corners and box edges are falling away.
I went ahead and wrapped every seam between the boxes with aluminum tape. Basically, you can say that entire thing is held together by duct tape - it will be pretty close. LOL

Actually the newly added internal chamber is now the skeleton of the structure and holds it all together. But still, the entire thing is a piece of junk.

Bees are in it as of the moment.
I mean them to winter on 5-6 frames.


----------



## GregB

So on the pictures above you can see built-in double-walls.

I mean to loosely insert foam blocks into those cavities for winter (not entirely sure yet - maybe I want them fully ventilated instead).

In summer I may very well insert a frame inside each cavity (if I see the bees trying to build into them.

At other direction the brood chamber will be double-walled using free-hanging follower boards (in winter configuration).

Basically, in winter configuration, this hive is double-walled from all sides.

The upper box is ventilated and will be filled with filtering insulation on top of the plastic film. So what appears to be a conventional Lang stack from the outside - is not from the inside.

I tried to do this retrofit with the least amount of rework possible.
Just in time for live winter testing.


----------



## GregB

Why bother with these Lang retrofits?

We have this talk here:
Derek Mitchell article discussing effect of higher humidity on varroa | Page 4 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums

I am in agreement that in many locations, insulation is beneficial and even necessary (and maybe season dependent too). But insulation usually means - bulk and extra weight.

Over several years now I have enjoyed working my long hives, but....

Their weight and bulk are really a big disadvantage to me (IF to be migratory, which I am to a large degree).

Really, the most irreplaceable feature of these long hives is their frame configuration (narrow/tall). The frame allows for very efficient winter beekeeping (important to me).

So if starting from the very basics again, one can derive a portable and light structure for the *summer beekeeping.*
And yet the same structure can be optimized on the spot for the *winter beekeeping.*
All around the same narrow/tall frame.
All around the same ubiquitous 10-frame Lang boxes one get for next to nothing and slightly modifying them (by just adding two internal walls).


----------



## crofter

Greg are you suggesting running the same frames conventional way in summer, then flipping and rotating to stand for tall way wintering?


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> Greg are you suggesting running the same frames conventional way in summer, then flipping and rotating to stand for tall way wintering?


No.
My default brood frames are these anyway.
Default brood chamber is about 10 of these - plenty.
I need more of these frames - completely out again.


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> Greg are you suggesting running the same frames conventional way in summer, then flipping and rotating to stand for tall way wintering?


To clarify - certainly, you can do this approach.
If had any conventional 5F Lang nucs, I'd do exactly this for the wintering setup - exactly as pictured.
This is based on my equipment on hand.

But my default frames are the Ukrainians so I don't need to flip anything.

I wanted to try 45% slanted approach using Lang frames - well, need to build something to that effect (stand, tops/bottoms). Meanwhile I have had other priorities and the time mostly ran out for this season.


----------



## crofter

I tipped a couple of hives ahead 45 deg. with the idea of seeing how they would transition brood and stores arrangements towards a wintering configuration. Realized that a stand and bottom board to hold them and lid arrangement was going to be work. Also found that they are not easy to inspect without possibility of rolling queen. Hanging, either flat or tall way, frames are easier to move without engaging their neighbors. 

I liked the suggested wintering benefits but the reality of living with them suggested not a net benefit. I had the Layens style deep hive almost ready to go, so moved them into that. The frames are standing rather than hanging and that has its own issues, but at least they are not half standing ~ half leaning on a 45. Will fix that next summer. 

Some ideas are fine to visit, but not so much to live with!


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> I liked the suggested wintering benefits but the reality of living with them suggested not a net benefit. I had the Layens style deep hive almost ready to go, so moved them into that. *The frames are standing rather than hanging and that has its own issues, *but at least they are not half standing ~ half leaning on a 45. Will fix that next summer.


*Temporarily *standing frames are a fine way to gradually migrate to the properly handing deep frames. Sure.

Permanently standing frames are best to be of the "standing design" (see example of my framelets).


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> Also found that they are not easy to inspect without possibility of rolling queen.


Get used to the idea of "crack - move away - lift".
Start from the back frame.
Rolling the queen is not really a big chance - as long as you have a very clear "back frame" (which is kind of a must and easy thing to have in most setups).


----------



## GregB

One of my late last queens turned out well and was an accidental breeder this year (intercepted swarm).

Well, I guess I am doing a late mating again this year.
Trying for two late queens.
Just made a 50/50 split.
Once the bees settle, I will gradually turn the mini to 180 degrees for a better mating setup.

Will see what pans out.


----------



## Litsinger

Look at them apples!


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Look at them apples!


Absolutely.
Apples are our staple.
Now days I no longer pick apples elsewhere - five backyard trees provide enough for the family of five.


----------



## GregB

And the first applesauce of the 2022 season!


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> One of my late last queens turned out well and was an accidental breeder this year (intercepted swarm).
> 
> Well, I guess I am doing a late mating again this year.
> Trying for two late queens.
> Just made a 50/50 split.
> Once the bees settle, I will gradually turn the mini to 180 degrees for a better mating setup.
> 
> Will see what pans out.
> 
> 
> View attachment 71043


Still lots of drones here.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> And the first applesauce of the 2022 season!
> 
> View attachment 71050


Made a couple of batches so far. Time for another, still lots of windfalls. Last batch I added a bunch of windfall peach, it's nice.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Still lots of drones here.


Sure.
Same.


----------



## GregB

Sounds like I again got one of those worthless swarms.
Got to be some pollinator bee.
This one:
Swarm trapping/catches 2022 | Page 4 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums

Virtually 2-3 weeks ago they had two good supers pretty full, but not quite capped yet. 
OK, fine. 
Gave them more time.
Went to get the honey today.
Nada.
They ate it all.


----------



## GregB

At least the veg garden does not disappoint.


----------



## GregB

But in the bad news - my most productive apple tree could not take it anymore.


----------



## ursa_minor

Sorry about the apple tree, I too do lots of grafting. This week I will have to pick my Sweet 16 apples, it is not supposed to live in my zone but this is it's 8th year. Years ago I grafted about 60 different varieties just to see if I could find one or two that would withstand our cold 2a zone. Two did very well Sweet 16 and Chestnut crab, both have had zero winter dieback and produce well despite some bitter cold winters. 

My garden is all in, just freezing my pumpkin puree for pumpkin scones this winter and doing my salsa. Next up tomato soup.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> ...... Two did very well Sweet 16 and Chestnut crab, both have had zero winter dieback and produce well despite some bitter cold winters.
> ........


Actualy, Ursa, the Sweet 16 is exceptionally hardy by its documentation (and per the parents).
So I am not surprised.



> *Withstands -50 degrees F temperatures with rarely any winter injury.* ................. A University of Minnesota introduction. Pollination partners: Wolf River or Haralson.


Sweet Sixteen Semi Dwarf Apple, Semi-Dwarf Apples: Jung Seed Company


Also consider this new variety - Prairie Magic.
I'd like to fetch some grafting material (no space left for new trees).



> *Fantastic flavor and Canadian hardiness. Originally hailing from Manitoba, Canada, *this apple is said to be one of the best flavored hardy varieties available. The crisp, white flesh is succulently sweet and wonderful for fresh eating, cooking and storage. The medium to large fruits are yellow blushing to red where they're touched by the sun and ripen in mid September. Very hardy with good disease resistance. Pollination partners: Wealthy or Northwestern Greening.


Prairie Magic® Semi Dwarf Apple, Semi-Dwarf Apples: Jung Seed Company


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> But in the bad news - my most productive apple tree could not take it anymore.
> 
> View attachment 71199


To be sure, the tree is still fixable since the trunk below the breakage is healthy. I will regrow it.
Of course, it will not be the same and the crop for the next 3-4 years will be just a small fraction of the full potential.
These Liberty apples are about my favorite of my collection.

This is a perfect example of *POOR *tree training - totally on me.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> This is a perfect example of *POOR *tree training - totally on me.


Been there before... Glad to read your garden continues to do so well!


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> To be sure, the tree is still fixable since the trunk below the breakage is healthy. I will regrow it......


Posted the detailed case for those apple growing folks.
Live and learn.

Apple Varieties | Page 4 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Live and learn.


I've got some apple trees in their 4th and 5th leaf trained to an open center that are doing o.k. Reminds me kind of like beekeeping insofar that there are usually a few right ways to do things depending upon our goals, management approach and environment.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> *I've got some apple trees in their 4th and 5th leaf trained to an open center that are doing o.k.* Reminds me kind of like beekeeping insofar that there are usually a few right ways to do things depending upon our goals, management approach and environment.


They are still flexible enough.
Over time the flex will no longer be there.

Which reminds me too, Russ - for two years now I have been involved in pruning/training classes in an old apple orchard (40-50 years old).
Next time there I should remember to take relevant pictures.

I say about 50% of the trees there are dead or doomed (which is too early).
The main reason - entire orchard has been trained to flat "Y".

The main observation is - the split does predictably split.

Based on this observation (and my own case too) - I am now into the central leader training (of any modification). Even open center can be worked as a modification of a central leader.


----------



## Knoxville1

This is a good video on modified central leader for anyone that hasn't seen it.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> I say about 50% of the trees there are dead or doomed (which is too early).
> The main reason - entire orchard has been trained to flat "Y".


Interesting- I'll look forward to hearing about this orchard. Does it only have pomes in it, or are there some stone fruits too?

Around here, open center is the predominant training method due to leaf wetness issues, but it's mainly stone fruit.


----------



## Litsinger

Knoxville1 said:


> This is a good video on modified central leader for anyone that hasn't seen it.


I always enjoy his videos- and he frequently posts over at growingfruit.org. He shares a wealth of good information- very commendable.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Interesting- I'll look forward to hearing about this orchard. Does it only have pomes in it, or are there some stone fruits too?
> 
> Around here, open center is the predominant training method due to leaf wetness issues, but it's mainly stone fruit.


Just the pomes.
The entire plot of pomes (50-100 trees?) are trained as "Y".
I have been pointing the poor end results to the students.

Yes - per my books, the stone fruits are often trained as "Y" - hence what I did to my stones as well.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> I always enjoy his videos- and he frequently posts over at growingfruit.org. He shares a wealth of good information- very commendable.


SkillCult is one of my favs.
I even had few communications with him - about apples of course.


----------



## GregB

Knoxville1 said:


> This is a good video on modified central leader for anyone that hasn't seen it.


He says exactly what I found out and also what happened to my "vase tree".


----------



## GregB

Summer is over - right on the schedule.

Drones have been forced out - this is my main drone hive 2022.
I hope these boys covered few queens at least (the pictured here are the lazy slackers of course).

Almost for shame the summer is over - look at these shiny, black studs. Good VSH genetics will be wasted. Oh well.


----------



## GregB

Of the two late mating queens, one has mated and seems to be laying OK.
The other got lost.

Tossed the late mating nucs back into one.
Now to feed them and I have yet another experimental mini-unit to try to winter.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> Summer is over - right on the schedule.
> 
> Drones have been forced out - this is my main drone hive 2022.


Lots of drones. I wonder what sort of mite levels the drone producing hives have.

But yes, summer is over. Turned AC off in the car to work yesterday and turned heat on. Wearing wool socks and thinking vaguely about getting the fireplace going. Fireplace starts usually end of October, but it's chilly now. Nighttime temps in the 40s and daytime 60s looking forward the next few days.

On the good side it is Concord grape harvest season. Man those are good! 

Garden is nearing it's end, except for greens and some late beans and whatnot. Big disappointment this year was melons. Watermelons bland and not sweet, cantaloupes useless. Did not get a single good melon this year, and most rotted before they ripened. My fault, planted too late so they missed maturing in the summer heat. Corn was excellent though.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> Watermelons bland and not sweet, cantaloupes useless.


AR, my peaches this year were mediocre that way - just OK.
Was not hot enough.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> AR, my peaches this year were mediocre that way - just OK.
> Was not hot enough.


Huge peach volumes, flavor was good enough but some years better, off the same tree. Expecting small numbers of peaches next year, since I will be chopping the tree way back. Hopefully some of the young trees will start producing more next year.

_Was not hot enough._

Last winter was very odd too, warm until after Christmas, to the point I worried about frostkill on the buds. Fortunately not problem but I wonder if the whole cycle being odd didn't have an effect.


----------



## GregB

Our HOA president stopped by.

There was an (annual!) complaint about my bees *swarming* somewhere in neighborhood. This was not even from the immediate neighbors.

As usually (now), I reminded him that (1) such complains come up during the wasp/yellow jacket season in late summer and (2) people should provide photo/video evidence about the "swarming bees" before we discuss this any further. Everyone has a smart phone, for Christ's sake.

Old women next door hates my bees - that much I know. Could be her inciting someone further down the street to complain on me (since her complaints in the past have been debunked).

Pretty much I am within the local beekeeping regulations (for the backyard) and no-one ever provided any resemblance of honey bee nuisance evidence.

Some people are ignorant and on a look out for scape goats for anything.
Nothing new but annoying.

Moving along.


----------



## GregB

End of season frantic equipment repair work...

So this used to be my prettiest deep hive.










This became this hive after about 5 years (indoors grade plywood did not hold up too well)










As of today, this became this hive.

If I find any blue paint left, I will paint the polka dots too - my favorite design feature. Maybe tomorrow over my "lunch break"? 

Plywood was torn away and replaced by 3/4" planks (front/back) and construction-grade house wall panels (sides).
This thing is much heavier now as the sandwiched walls are whooping ~2.5" thick.

I figure this hive will never move and will be a permanent backyard fixture. But this should be a great home for the bees - well insulated and with lots of thermal mass too.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> Of the two late mating queens,* one has mated and seems to be laying OK*.
> The other got lost.
> 
> *Tossed the late mating nucs back into one.*
> Now to feed them and I have yet another experimental mini-unit to try to winter.


Well, somehow this combine ended badly.
My newly mated queen went missing.
Either I pinched her myself OR the combined bees got her (most likely I feel).
Maybe I rushed it.

Not critical, but any new mated queen is a resource and is worth money.
Virtually yesterday I sold a queen (meant to be terminated anyway, but I sold her for $20). People are asking for queens at most unusual times - good to have sellable spares.

In all I still have 10 (ten) various queens on mini-framelets that I will send through the winter. This could be an obvious bust OR this could be a revolutionary boom OR anything in between.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> My newly mated queen went missing.


Is this the queen from the isolated mating station?


----------



## Tigger19687

GregB said:


> In all I still have 10 (ten) various queens on mini-framelets that I will send through the winter. This could be an obvious bust OR this could be a revolutionary boom OR anything in between.


I would very much like to know how you do this and how it turns out for you.
You should start a thread about it... "Mini framelet over winter experiment"
🥳


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Is this the queen from the isolated mating station?


No Russ,
This was about late mating experiment.

It was an unplanned case of late mating - mid-September.
By now I can say with good certainty - at my place one can mate queens through the September.

I just lost an extra queen I could have.
But she was a bonus case anyway.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Is this the queen from the isolated mating station?


Both queens from my mating station experiment are doing well.

In retrospect, I should have placed at least one of them on a regular frame (to reduce risks) - oh well now - they both will winter on mini-framelets.


----------



## GregB

Tigger19687 said:


> I would very much like to know how you do this and how it turns out for you.
> *You should start a thread about it... "Mini framelet over winter experiment"*
> 🥳


I suppose. 
But then I can just as well will report on this under my own thread.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> In all I still have 10 (ten) various queens on mini-framelets that I will send through the winter.


It is 11 (eleven) rather.
I have various setups around the mini-framelets.
Will report when get to it.

For now I feel I am finished feeding them for the winter.
Still could feed through most of October, but just tired of it.
There is always fondant, which I have lots to use.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> End of season frantic equipment repair work...
> 
> So this used to be my prettiest deep hive.
> 
> View attachment 71378
> 
> 
> This became this hive after about 5 years (indoors grade plywood did not hold up too well)
> 
> View attachment 71380
> 
> 
> As of today, this became this hive.
> 
> If I find any blue paint left, I will paint the polka dots too - my favorite design feature. Maybe tomorrow over my "lunch break"?
> 
> Plywood was torn away and replaced by 3/4" planks (front/back) and construction-grade house wall panels (sides).
> This thing is much heavier now as the sandwiched walls are whooping ~2.5" thick.
> 
> I figure this hive will never move and will be a permanent backyard fixture. But this should be a great home for the bees - well insulated and with lots of thermal mass too.
> 
> 
> View attachment 71381
> 
> 
> View attachment 71382


All done.


----------



## GregB

The camera alters the actual thing, but the walls about 2.25", sandwiched with 3/4" insulation inside.

So pretty much this hive is a close approximation of the traditional Ukrainian/Polish long hive.

Hopefully the carpenter ants will not get inside, but I found one of the hive walls prior to the repairs was ant-infested (they turned the insulation into swiss cheese). Those large black ants are everywhere in my area.


----------



## Tigger19687

Have you tried Rockwool for insulation? I know they say mice don't like it but not sure about ants.


----------



## GregB

Tigger19687 said:


> Have you tried Rockwool for insulation? I know they say mice don't like it but not sure about ants.


No.
My hives have been mouse proof so far (let alone the sandwiched walls insides).
If the ants get inside walls (more probable) - well, the double-wall will still be a double wall - the ants will only eat away the foam (not crucial damage)..


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Those large black ants are everywhere in my area.


Same here, Greg:


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Same here, Greg:


Cheesemakers.


----------



## GregB

Killed some bees - at least 50 (surely more).
This is to confirm that OA sugar solution (especially old OA sugar solution can kill bees).

Context:

broke apart and combined away my last temporary mini-nuc (queen was sold) - combined them into two other minis
while at it, I pulled out a bottle of old OA 2.5% solution (2-3 months old) - it was just sitting on the basement floor since summer
I figured I would dribble these combined-in bees to reduce the mite load they bring into the better (in theory) colonies
within minutes bees started crawling out *one *of the combined colonies and dying - looks like they swallowed too much OA solution (*old *OA solution too!).
these bees were sticky too - from my dribble
Could be HMF build-up in it as well.
Old solution kept at basement temps - not the best long-term storage program. 

Anyway - the loss is minimal; I dumped the remainder of the OA (about a liter).
There still plenty of bees; hopefully most bees died were the old bees.

Lesson learned:

OA 2.5% can be toxic (especially when *old*!)
make sure to have reasonably fresh preparation - up to 2-3 weeks I had no issues *in summer*
also, it is best to apply OAD when bees are *not *interested in consuming it - during strong summer flow I never had issues like this - my other combined colony did not have this issue (difference - it is being fed syrup and so did not go crazy licking the OA, I think)
I will stick to the LAD (lactic) for the late fall application - safe from bees consuming it this time a year

Incidentally, I got freshly prepped 18% LA onto a scratched finger - it definitely burns. So, I licked it off.  No big deal, just acid.


----------



## ursa_minor

But aren't we told to do an OAD for a winter broodless dribble, now I am concerned. LOL.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> But aren't we told to do an OAD for a winter broodless dribble, now I am concerned. LOL.


Yes.
Be sure the solution is *fresh*.
And going forward I will order some *glycerin*. (to avoid using sugar).

In a pinch, I may just apply the OAD with no sugar at all. Just straight water solution. This sugar-based OA formulation also has me concerned.

Actually, granted I have 28 colonies this fall, maybe I better order some glycerin now.
And/or lactic acid too.
Don't think I got enough lactic to go around.


----------



## GregB

Looked up on Amazon:

cheapest gallon of glycerin is $30
cheapest 1/2 gallon of lactic acid is $65
cheapest 32oz of lactic acid is $29

Maybe this is a nod to using OA without sugar (when I run out of lactic).

PS: thanks for EBay - the exact same 32oz bottle of lactic is $22.


----------



## ursa_minor

GregB said:


> Maybe this is a nod to using OA without sugar (when I run out of lactic).


Well there is that paragraph on Randy Olivers site: 

_More recent studies indicate the the main effect of oxalic upon mites is direct absorption into the mites’ bodies via either the empodia (the sticky inflatable pads on their feet– likely the main route), or directly through their exoskeleton. Absorption through the exoskeleton appears to be dependent upon their being a humectant associated with the acid to allow it to better penetrate a mite’s cuticle — sugar or glycerin appear to serve this purpose.* But recent work by Toomema indicate that by simply increasing the amount of dribble applied to the bees, one can decrease the concentration of acid, forego the humectant, and still get a good mite kill (Kalle Toomemaa (2019) *The synergistic effect of weak oxalic acid and thymol aqueous solutions on Varroa mites and honey bees, Journal of Apicultural Research, 58:1, 37-52)._

sugar is a humecant and apparently can be removed. Maybe this is something to consider especially during the fall treatments when killing winter bees is not the best thing to do.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> sugar is a humecant and apparently can be removed. Maybe this is something to consider especially during the fall treatments when killing winter bees is not the best thing to do.


Exactly.

Late fall treatment is sensitive in that:

bees are more likely to consume syrup with OA and get damaged
winter bees are not replaceable


----------



## GregB

I am a good example of a hobby beekeepers with a loaded life outside of bees. Right now is the season of cross-county racing in the high schools!
Every Saturday we are cheering the kids on - somewhere.

Then the apple crop needs immediate attention - need to make juice/apple butter from the damaged ones.

Then the last batch of summer squash needs freezing before it turns into compost material.

This past weekend (again!!!) I just did not accomplish much with respect to my bee projects.

I guess I managed to fix another equipment piece - replaced the rotten away roof for my largest long hive - another case of bad kitchen grade plywood that fell apart because of the trapped in moisture and carpenter ants.

Also distributed the last planned batch of syrup.
That last one was in nearly total darkness last night.
Enough.

I meant to start the round of my fall colony revisions and treatments - and STILL did not have the time.
I really need to review all colonies to understand the winter store situation and the ongoing brooding status (IF any still) and treat any brood-less colonies.

Oh, gee - and harvest the excess honey where I find any.


----------



## GregB

Now I can finalize the unit number that will go into the winter.

*28 units.*
----------------------------------------------
*11 units* are on mini-framelets (8-10 framelets each - about the same as 4-5 Lang medium frames)

4 of these are in regular nucs; framelets are conveniently fit crossways; will be be additionally insulated
7 of these are in the foam coolers; I may need to create additional ventilation - will observe and decide later - the foam is trivial to cut
----------------------------------------------
*1 unit *is my CVH hive on the custom mini-frame; I had no time to do anything on this project this year outside of just gaining practical experience (which I like); it will be just the second winter trial of the CVH design.
----------------------------------------------
*16 units* are on full-size Ukrainian frames; this is an assortment of various colonies sized anywhere from the conventional nucs on 5-6 frames to rather strong colonies up to 20 frames (unharvested size).
--------------------------------------------------

Again, this will be a trial of mite resistant bees vs. random bees.
Should be interesting to see how the F2 open-mated queens will hold (I consider them "random"). Some of these F2s are mated in the known VSH mating zones; others are truly randomly mated.

In addition, I also run a trial of wintering on the mini-framelets vs. the conventional Ukrainian frames. Lots of potential stake in this department.
I know that many experienced people around me concluded that small nuc wintering is not feasible here. Even 5-6 frame conventional nucs (supposedly!) don't do well. I say BS - just need to think out of the Lang box (which they have not done).

In addition, this will be the second winter of "two-treatment" regiment to verify the validity of the approach. Which I expect to be a successful confirmation.


----------



## ursa_minor

GregB said:


> Even 5-6 frame conventional nucs (supposedly!) don't do well. I say BS


Are these 5-6 frame nucs set up with stores above or stand alone. Why I ask is that my 7 frame lang set up is extremely close to a 6 frame in warmer climes and it did a stellar job of wintering last season. And last winter was brutal. It came out of winter extremely strong and built up fast.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> *Are these 5-6 frame nucs set up with stores above or stand alone.* Why I ask is that my 7 frame lang set up is extremely close to a 6 frame in warmer climes and it did a stellar job of wintering last season. And last winter was brutal. It came out of winter extremely strong and built up fast.


Typically, they (people around me) just try to winter in stand-alone 5F Lang boxes.

All I hear is about mediocre results.

I have at least five colonies in the 5-6 F range for this winter.
I expect they all will do well (assuming they will handle the mites well, with some assistance from me).

This would be a typical Lang 5F set (which I find very suboptimal). At the least I'd winter the 5F unit in a 10F box.


----------



## GregB

Last night got inside my 20F long hive.
The plan was to eval the pre-winter status and maybe steal some honey.










Well....
Few things:

as is often with the long hives - the honey is splattered all over which makes it hard to harvest - so I did few frame re-arrangements and left all the honey to them (in hopes that they will condense the honey onto few frames only).
bees are still brooding - they are consuming whatever honey stores have been made - so while I did not feed this colony and even got few honey frames already, they are already burning thru the honey I meant to, hopefully, harvest - probably not much else to harvest now
bees are still brooding - this also prevents brood-less treatment - most likely November is the no-brainer treatment month for me
no obvious problem units that I know of - all of them appear healthy and strong - from the smallest to the biggest - all 28 colonies
I have no time or desire to go around counting mites - a catch-all late fall lactic acid treatment will do


----------



## GregB

People keep asking for queens - as predicted.


Which I kinda hate as this keeps messing with my experimentation.
But could use some gas money too.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> People keep asking for queens - as predicted.
> 
> 
> Which I kinda hate as this keeps messing with my experimentation.
> But could use some gas money too.


Well, the same late season "I have no brood!" virus seems to be going around. 
People need to calm down.
Not wasting good queens over that.


----------



## ursa_minor

While I am in late season lamenting that I still have brood !!! not only that but a few larvae!!!! I had a frame get dislodged and had to reset it and I looked in the comb and saw both brood and a few larvae, not many but still there. 

I wonder how long our queens do actually lay into the winter, maybe it is longer than we really anticipate or estimate. We are in a cold zone and these hives are not insulated yet and have only 1/2 inch plywood roof where the cold certainly can penetrate. The bees were in a lovely cluster deep in the frames so they did respond to the cold weather. 

Now to let nature take it's course, few larvae still, done OAD, and had to reset a comb hoping I did not damage a queen. It is what it is and I can only wait and see.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> I wonder how long our queens do actually lay into the winter, maybe it is longer than we really anticipate or estimate.


Depends on:

genetics - the more Italian blood, the later they will lay
conditions - the warmer it is (factor in the hive insulation), the later they will lay
other;
but the first two should be the primary factors in October.


----------



## ursa_minor

Genetics is probably the most important, if only there was a way to check that without tearing apart a brood nest in order to find out. Some things we just have to leave unknown in our own apiaries. 

But the upside was that in that frame I was able to see that there was a good 10 inches of stores above the brood area and a nice low empty space in which they could cluster. Deep frames, IMO, are useful in this context, room to cluster and lots of room for upper stores.


----------



## joebeewhisperer

Didn’t get my replies together but a few points (of reply).

1. I bought a gallon of glycerin at tractor supply around March 2020 for hand sanitizer. Also bought a gallon of 190 proof at the liquor store for said mixture. They only had gallons in stock which were around $25.

2. On getting busy with “loaded life”, sounds like you have your hands full. 😃 I’ve been busier than usual also and I’d say I’m a month behind on everything except feeding. Most are 4-5x heavier than needed as the clusters have already retreated to 2-4 frames of bees (even in 2-3 deeps).

3. On dribbles, I saw Mr Binnie on 1 of the videos where he had Jennifer Barry. She and her students have sometimes used his yards for research. He said they did OAD, then did it again in 3 weeks and it killed significant numbers of bees. He theorized their gut biology couldn’t handle the second dose. You could tell it had left a painful impression. Can’t recall how many hives.

4. On fall queen demand, last year I sold a few queens until I literally set an end date in mid-Sept.This year I set that dat at Aug 1. Probably lost a good bit of cash flow, but I’ll likely do the same next year. Last 2 years I’ve put my last queens in nucs, and sold off excess at extreme discounts. And your right about brood. While I found a languishing colony yesterday in a 3x deep with no queen, at this point 2/3 of mine are broodless, or a few days away. I rarely look for queens but often look for eggs. In a particularly cold Oct, I’m looking for neither.

Hope your apples have done well! 😃


----------



## GregB

joebeewhisperer said:


> Didn’t get my replies together but a few points (of reply).
> 
> 1. I bought a gallon of glycerin at tractor supply ........
> 
> 2. On getting busy with “loaded life”, sounds like you have your hands full. 😃 I’ve been busier than usual also and I’d say I’m a month behind on everything except feeding. Most are 4-5x heavier than needed as the clusters have already retreated to 2-4 frames of bees (even in 2-3 deeps).
> 
> 3. On dribbles, I saw Mr Binnie on 1 of the videos where he had Jennifer Barry. She and her students have sometimes used his yards for research. He said they did OAD, then did it again in 3 weeks and it killed significant numbers of bees. He theorized their gut biology couldn’t handle the second dose. You could tell it had left a painful impression. Can’t recall how many hives.
> 
> 4. On fall queen demand, last year I sold a few queens until I literally set an end date in mid-Sept.This year I set that dat at Aug 1. Probably lost a good bit of cash flow, but I’ll likely do the same next year. Last 2 years I’ve put my last queens in nucs, and sold off excess at extreme discounts. And your right about brood. While I found a languishing colony yesterday in a 3x deep with no queen, at this point 2/3 of mine are broodless, or a few days away. I rarely look for queens but often look for eggs. In a particularly cold Oct, I’m looking for neither.
> 
> Hope your apples have done well! 😃


Hey Joe!

1. Do you remember/know if that glycerin is of *vegetable sourcing*? I'd prefer food grade vegetable. Virtually tomorrow I should drive to a town where they have the Tractor Supply store. Should I stop and check? I am afraid at $20-25/gallon it must be of some non-food grade sourcing.

2. Busy. Days are short and every Saturday is about high school sports (not much about bees).

3. Yeah. Now I am more afraid of OA and sugar mix for late treating. Mid-summer treating seems fine.

4. Last night I advised the potential customer to just relax. Told him I will check my own bees for brood over the weekend and let him know. If I have no brood, his are probably about the same. Hate selling good queens into the queen-right hives. Last months I sold few queens - at least one of them got killed off I know about. Yeah - cash is nice, but still....  Just feels wrong.

5. Apples are coming out of the ears! Especially that wife's favorite apple is really good this year - the *Honeygold*. A good problem to have.

(The destroyed Liberty tree - on the balance though - it is always something).


----------



## ursa_minor

joebeewhisperer said:


> 3. On dribbles, I saw Mr Binnie on 1 of the videos where he had Jennifer Barry. She and her students have sometimes used his yards for research. He said they did OAD, then did it again in 3 weeks and it killed significant numbers of bees.


Hence the direction to not do a repeat dose.

I don't believe OAD is problematic in the fall provided you do the weak solution and do only one treatment. The same weak mixture is recommended if you choose to spray rather than dribble. The weak solution is only 2.5% as advised by Randy Oliver, not the normal mix we usually hear of 75g in 1 litre of syrup, it is 60g per 1 litre of syrup. 

I am leaning more and more to the scientific paper that suggests the sugar, which is the reason the bees consume the OAD, is redundant if you use a weaker dose and increase the amount applied and you will still get the same good rate of mite kill. 

I am looking, but have yet to find other than that one snippet from scientific beekeeping, any study that delves into the possibility of decreasing the percentage of OAD and increasing the amount of solution applied. If it is weaker how weak can we go and still get a good result, and if there is a lower dose that is effective, could that allow for repeat treatments without harming the bees in winter or summer.


----------



## crofter

If you look for it there is some info out there that OA in a glycerin and water spray may be a better solution. Despite tasting sweet to us the bees dont ingest the glycerin solution and it is at least as effective.


----------



## ursa_minor

I have read about the glycerine. I am a little lazy I guess I am looking for something that does not require me to become a small lab in order to make up the mixture.


----------



## crofter

ursa_minor said:


> I have read about the glycerine. I am a little lazy I guess I am looking for something that does not require me to become a small lab in order to make up the mixture.


I dont do dribbles but I dont see any more difficulty making a glycerine / water solution for the OA as compared to making a sugar/ water solution.

In making the extended release contact strips for oxalic / glycerine the quantities and relationship to the absorption qualities of the strip material, do appear more mystical. I dont get much more fussy with the measurements that I do for making pancakes!


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> I dont do dribbles but I dont see any more difficulty making a glycerine / water solution for the OA as compared to making a sugar/ water solution.


It really is trivial.

400ml gly
600ml water
35g of OA 
-------------------------
Got yourself 1 L of 2.5% OA solution.

Replace 35g of OA by your desired amount.
45g - 3.2%
60g - 4.2%


----------



## AR1

crofter said:


> I dont do dribbles but I dont see any more difficulty making a glycerine / water solution for the OA as compared to making a sugar/ water solution.
> 
> In making the extended release contact strips for oxalic / glycerine the quantities and relationship to the absorption qualities of the strip material, do appear more mystical. I dont get much more fussy with the measurements that I do for making pancakes!


Making the OA strips turned out to be quite easy. I use a double boiler, an old, beat up smaller pot inside a bigger pot. Heat the water in the bigger pot to boiling and mix the ingredients in the old, small pot. Once it's all dissolved, a minute or two, add in the paper towels, enough to absorb all the mixture. I don't think the exact % of ingredients matters much. If you get in too much OA it doesn't dissolve. That tells you it's too much!


----------



## jtgoral

AR1 said:


> Making the OA strips turned out to be quite easy. I use a double boiler, an old, beat up smaller pot inside a bigger pot. Heat the water in the bigger pot to boiling and mix the ingredients in the old, small pot. Once it's all dissolved, a minute or two, add in the paper towels, enough to absorb all the mixture. I don't think the exact % of ingredients matters much. If you get in too much OA it doesn't dissolve. That tells you it's too much!


I think you should not exceed 70C when mixing OA and glycerin.


----------



## crofter

AR1 said:


> Making the OA strips turned out to be quite easy. I use a double boiler, an old, beat up smaller pot inside a bigger pot. Heat the water in the bigger pot to boiling and mix the ingredients in the old, small pot. Once it's all dissolved, a minute or two, add in the paper towels, enough to absorb all the mixture. I don't think the exact % of ingredients matters much. If you get in too much OA it doesn't dissolve. That tells you it's too much!


I use an old electric frying pan half full of water and the OA glycerin and water go into a pyrex casserole dish that sits in the water. If you stick to the recommended temperatures it does take a fair while to dissolve; more like 15 minutes. If you get on the hot side things start to have an acrid smell. Dont know how detrimental that might be but have heard it dissed so dont push* that* limit.

My operating table is the bottom of a 50 gallon barrell and outside; much less stressful than in the kitchen under the eye of the boss!
If the strips seem a bit on the wet side, I squeeze them between some dry ones. Too wet and they are shunned by the bees instead of them going to work on tearing them up and hauling the debris around the colony. Better contact with more bee contact.


----------



## AR1

jtgoral said:


> I think you should not exceed 70C when mixing OA and glycerin.


It doesn't get so hot in the inside pan, it's only there a few minutes.


----------



## ursa_minor

Right now I heat the water in my kettle, pour it into a jar drop in my 1/4 cup of sugar, then the OA crystals, quick stir, put on the lid and I am done. Can I do the same with the glycerine without having to heat the whole mess in a pot?

That is what I find puts me off of the whole process and turns it into a mini lab project. I too will be banned from the house with the OA heating glycerine or strip making process.

ETA people are making this up by the litre, I need a total of 150ml. so maybe that is where the whole pot mixing, squeezing strips etc. parts company with those who don't mind it. The number of hive you have to treat dictates the amount of mess and work you are willing to do.


----------



## crofter

ursa_minor said:


> Right now I heat the water in my kettle, pour it into a jar drop in my 1/4 cup of sugar, then the OA crystals, quick stir, put on the lid and I am done. Can I do the same with the glycerine without having to heat the whole mess in a pot?
> 
> That is what I find puts me off of the whole process and turns it into a mini lab project. I too will be banned from the house with the OA heating glycerine or strip making process.


glycerine and water mix readily, probably easier than sugar and water. In making the extended strips Oxalic acid is near 50% of the mix. In the dribble it is about 3% so no where near saturation point. I am assuming that the water / glycerine mix would as easily dissolve the same 3% OA

Heating is not necessary with the oa / glycerine dribble or spray solution.


----------



## ursa_minor

crofter said:


> Heating is not necessary with the oa / glycerine dribble or spray solution.


Well I obviously missed that fact in my readings, thanks. I will now go and find some glycerine.


----------



## GregB

Well, checked the 5 backyard mini-nucs.

Four young queens still have brood - the last batch of capped brood is still cooking.
Need to wait 1-2 weeks and check back again before I can do my #2 treatment for the season.

The old, second winter queen was, essentially, clean (maybe 20-30 brood cells left) - went ahead and applied the LAD.

I kind of like the minis that way - I quickly check them and make my decision for the entire project. The backyard minis are my litmus test for what is going on.

Not going to bother with the bees tomorrow.
I'd rather go biking!
Besides, it is too warm to risk robbing - 75F today.
Left out few frames with little honey residue - there was a bee cloud in short order.
About 50F would be about perfect temp to work the bees now.


----------



## ursa_minor

I found the the paper on OA in sugar syrup or plain water to treat varroa if anyone is interested. I am no scientist and not even close to understanding if this study has any flaws let alone major flaws. It is mainly aimed at spraying not dribbling.

I though that with GregB's observation of high bee mortality after spraying with OA maybe the concentration of 2.5% can, in some cases, be problematic. But as I said this study could have many flaws and my take on the paper is flat out wrong, it also could be that subsequent research has come to other conclusions.

https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00892065/file/hal-00892065.pdf

Edited to remove a few long paragraphs so as not to clog up GregB's thread.


----------



## ursa_minor

0.5% oxalic is certainly very weak, you could probably get that from the water you boil your spinach in. 😀


----------



## GregB

Finally got around to extract some summer crop.
Warming up the frames in my sauna.
Spinning goes pretty quickly, but the day goes by even quicker.
Still not finished, especially because I hate mixing different batches together so not to ruin better honeys.
Even if a tiny batch - I drain it out to keep separate from others.


----------



## A Novice

GregB said:


> Now I can finalize the unit number that will go into the winter.
> 
> *28 units.*
> ----------------------------------------------
> *11 units* are on mini-framelets (8-10 framelets each - about the same as 4-5 Lang medium frames)
> 
> 4 of these are in regular nucs; framelets are conveniently fit crossways; will be be additionally insulated
> 7 of these are in the foam coolers; I may need to create additional ventilation - will observe and decide later - the foam is trivial to cut
> ----------------------------------------------
> *1 unit *is my CVH hive on the custom mini-frame; I had no time to do anything on this project this year outside of just gaining practical experience (which I like); it will be just the second winter trial of the CVH design.
> ----------------------------------------------
> *16 units* are on full-size Ukrainian frames; this is an assortment of various colonies sized anywhere from the conventional nucs on 5-6 frames to rather strong colonies up to 20 frames (unharvested size).
> --------------------------------------------------
> 
> Again, this will be a trial of mite resistant bees vs. random bees.
> Should be interesting to see how the F2 open-mated queens will hold (I consider them "random"). Some of these F2s are mated in the known VSH mating zones; others are truly randomly mated.
> 
> In addition, I also run a trial of wintering on the mini-framelets vs. the conventional Ukrainian frames. Lots of potential stake in this department.
> I know that many experienced people around me concluded that small nuc wintering is not feasible here. Even 5-6 frame conventional nucs (supposedly!) don't do well. I say BS - just need to think out of the Lang box (which they have not done).
> 
> In addition, this will be the second winter of "two-treatment" regiment to verify the validity of the approach. Which I expect to be a successful confirmation.


I was talking with a former state bee inspector, who got to see a lot of beekeeper operations. He knew of one guy who regularly wintered in 4 and 5 frame nuks (uninsulated) in SE Wisconsin. and had good survival So it is possible, even in the box


----------



## GregB

A Novice said:


> I was talking with a former state bee inspector, who got to see a lot of beekeeper operations. *He knew of one guy who regularly wintered in 4 and 5 frame nuks (uninsulated) in SE Wisconsin. and had good survival So it is possible, even in the box*


I feel good about the mini-nuc wintering project, so far.
All nucs look healthy and strong, for their sizing (by observation).
Just waiting out the last brood to hatch - to apply pre-winter Lactic.


----------



## AR1

A Novice said:


> I was talking with a former state bee inspector, who got to see a lot of beekeeper operations. He knew of one guy who regularly wintered in 4 and 5 frame nuks (uninsulated) in SE Wisconsin. and had good survival So it is possible, even in the box


Done it here, 90 miles south of Greg. Got one this year too.


----------



## drummerboy

AR1 said:


> Done it here, 90 miles south of Greg. Got one this year too.


We're nearly 300 miles North of GregB and are convinced that small colonies going into winter are more likely to survive than large colonies. Big colonies have become too much bother when it comes to over-wintering imo.


----------



## GregB

Got myself few gallons of honey extracted the traditional way.
Bees are busing drying the residue.

Looks like the next weekend I can start the fall season treatment/audits/harvest project - all in one.


----------



## GregB

Experimenting with a method when you just stuff the frame with dry sugar.
Very easy.
Shake the sugar in.
Spread it about.
Spray water so the sugar clumps up.

My plan is to quickly create such "sugar frames" on the spot and insert them as needed during the pre-winter survay.

Will see how the bees will take it.


----------



## GregB

Here is the biggest mini-nuc I got.
Treated by 18% LAD a couple of days ago.
Bees are fine.
Debating to move them into a bigger cooler for maybe better winter ventilation.


----------



## GregB

Sugar-frame in action.


----------



## jtgoral

GregB said:


> Sugar-frame in action.
> View attachment 71680


Any ideas how much sugar per sq inch?


----------



## GregB

jtgoral said:


> Any ideas how much sugar per sq inch?


No idea.


----------



## crofter

Cells are a bit more than half an inch deep and cell walls are so thin that their volume is negligible; so roughly half a cubic inch per sq. inch. Straight math from there to give volumes or weights. We know the weights per unit volume of sugar.


----------



## GregB

At least for the mini-nucs, I am planning to prep several sugar frames.
Looks like we have rain on Saturday, but sunny Sunday.
By the plan, I will be pre-winter auditing/treating the bees - good time to slip in several sugar frames where needed.


----------



## ursa_minor

I know these are mini nucs but would it be advisable, if one was to go that route in the future, to look at the nest and see if there is enough stores in the core of the brood nest. If not, put sugar in the upper part of the frame while leaving a little space for the cluster below. Just in reference to "winter" preps not regular feeding.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> I know these are mini nucs but would it be advisable, if one was to go that route in the future, to look at the nest and see if there is enough stores in the core of the brood nest. If not,* put sugar in the upper part of the frame while leaving a little space for the cluster below*. Just in reference to "winter" preps not regular feeding.


A matter of fact, I am thinking exactly that.
For some of my full-size frame colonies I may do exactly that IF I find the frames are too light.

For example, rub in some sugar *mid-frame* if too many cells are empty.

Shake the bees off.
Rub in sugar.
Spray the sugar with water to fix it in place.
Re-insert.

Seems like a fine last resort approach for late fall/before winter.


----------



## GregB

Checked three sister-queens in the minis (on the back porch).

one is brood-free
one has a small patch of brood on a single framelet
one has at least three framelets of large brood patches.

So, I dribbled them all with lactic.
But clearly the last one will need a repeat.

Three sisters - very different behavior.


----------



## Gray Goose

jtgoral said:


> Any ideas how much sugar per sq inch?


25 cells full



GG


----------



## crofter

Gray Goose said:


> 25 cells full
> 
> 
> 
> GG


For the ones who would knock the metric system, this bit of trivia>

What is the liquid volume of a pint?
28.9 cubic inches; In the United States the unit for dry measure is slightly different from that for liquid measure; a U.S. dry pint is 33.6 cubic inches (550.6 cubic cm), while a U.S. liquid pint is *28.9 cubic inches* (473.2 cubic cm).


----------



## jtgoral

crofter said:


> For the ones who would knock the metric system, this bit of trivia>
> 
> What is the liquid volume of a pint?
> 28.9 cubic inches; In the United States the unit for dry measure is slightly different from that for liquid measure; a U.S. dry pint is 33.6 cubic inches (550.6 cubic cm), while a U.S. liquid pint is *28.9 cubic inches* (473.2 cubic cm).


In beer units 1 pint =~0.5 L of beer. This is good enough for me when I order.


----------



## crofter

jtgoral said:


> In beer units 1 pint =~0.5 L of beer. This is good enough for me when I order.


Beer is not rocket science though like beekeeping


----------



## jtgoral

crofter said:


> Beer is not rocket science though like beekeeping


It is not? Guide to Making a Frozen Yeast Bank


----------



## crofter

jtgoral said:


> It is not? Guide to Making a Frozen Yeast Bank


Ah! now you are talking about making it! I had the ordering and drinking of it. Here, hold my beer and watch this!


----------



## Litsinger

ursa_minor said:


> If not, put sugar in the upper part of the frame while leaving a little space for the cluster below.


Not sure why, but your post reminded me of something I saw on Dr. Wyatt Mangum's website- namely feeding granulated sugar in from below on TBH's:









Might not work in all hive types or environments, but might be something to think about if the mini-nucs have plenty of room and are well-insulated...


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Not sure why, but your post reminded me of something I saw on Dr. Wyatt Mangum's website- namely feeding granulated sugar in from below on TBH's:
> View attachment 71686
> 
> 
> Might not work in all hive types or environments, but might be something to think about if the mini-nucs have plenty of room and are well-insulated...


Right; I knew of his sugar feeding method and even referred to it.
His method works in warm climate winter OK.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> A matter of fact, I am thinking exactly that.
> For some of my full-size frame colonies I may do exactly that IF I find the frames are too light.
> 
> For example, rub in some sugar *mid-frame* if too many cells are empty.
> 
> Shake the bees off.
> Rub in sugar.
> Spray the sugar with water to fix it in place.
> Re-insert.
> 
> Seems like a fine last resort approach for late fall/before winter.


Done a couple of these today. 
Two smaller colonies would be wintering on four honey frames.
So, I made the fifth frame for them - a sugar frame.


----------



## ursa_minor

I am following your mini nucs and how they winter, interesting stuff GregB


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## thill

Just found this thread, and yes, very interesting stuff.

I love the idea of sugaring frames. That way, the food is right there, and they don't have to break cluster to eat. That seems like absolutely brilliant thinking to me You are going to have to write a book on all your experiments, you mad scientist!


----------



## GregB

More sugar frames.

I don't see any sugar pulled out of the test sugar-framed mini-nuc on the backporch.
So, the sugar must have clumped up well and stays in.


----------



## GregB

thill said:


> Just found this thread, and yes, very interesting stuff.
> 
> I love the idea of *sugaring frames..*


I will say this is not my original idea.
I heard about it in my local group and testing it out.


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## GregB

So, about the "meat bees" vs. "honey bees".

Here are two hives.
On the left are the "honey bees".
On the right are the "meat bees".
Same stand.
Same forage through entire summer.

The "meat bees" was a *large prime swarm caught in May.*
I started them on 5 or 6 frames, unsure now.
At one time I even had two supers on them (July thru August) - hoping for a good crop.
Nada.
Forget the crop.
In fact, as pictured, I left them on 8 frames for the winter.
Out the 8 frames - 2 honey frames I inserted from supply on hand and I also made a sugar frame (pictured above).
Still, I will need to put some dry sugar on top later, just to ensure they have enough stores to make it.
They are still too light but should last through the winter holidays; then the dry sugar.

Worthless bees.
Not only they did not make any crop for me - but they have also not made any stores for themselves (starting back in May).

Perhaps they work OK for a commercial keeper in classic Lang setup.
Run them on a single brood box with queen excluder.
Force them to fill some supers on the main flow AND *immediately *steal those supers before them bees eat the honey back. Then - feed, feed, feed.
So yes - I can see it working maybe if managed differently.
Not for me.
I am a peasant-style beek - late fall harvest deal when I got time.
By then these bees already ate most of the honey themselves while trying to brood more.

Strange logic these "meat bees" practice, because if left alone these bees have no chance.
Not here, in Southern WI.
They will simply starve to death IF mites don't get them before that.
Still, pretty worthless.

If they make it thru, this queen is to be used as a bee resource and later terminated.


----------



## GregB

And the "honey bees".

This was one my own brood-less, shook swarms *made in June.*
I started this wintered queen on 5 frames.
So, they were behind the "meat bees" from the very start, by about a month.
Moved them away onto the remote farmyard as well - too feisty for a residential area, IMO.
That is in the picture - a remote yard for feisty bees.

And today I pulled two frames for myself (I pulled lower quality frames; *the least full ones* - pictured)
Left them on 8 very heavy frames of their own forage.
Could have pulled a couple more frames - but I can always do it in spring, just as well.
For now, I care more for them to be fully supplied.

Now - these are good "honey bees" suitable for *peasant-style beekeeping.*

So, the peasant-style beekeeping is still very much possible as I understand more how it should work.
Simply, it is not "two visits per year" - it is rather "3-4 visits per year", which is still nothing to sniff at.
Should have more appropriate equipment for this - a single tier, deep frame rigs work well.
Work for me, anyway.

This is the first time I opened them since about July (when I filled the box with the remaining frames and walked away).
Today (November 8th, election day) - I pulled honey/treated the bees with lactic/verified they had no obvious issues to handle/reduced them from 10 frames to 8 frames and inserted follower boards on both sides.
All in a single visit.
Did not bother them for about 4 months.
A matter of fact, I don't need to open this particular colony until spring - I know this 1-year-old queen well, she will be fine left alone.










This is what a nice frame from a long hive should look like.
The "honey bees" got a couple of these.
The rest of the frames are about 1/2-2/3 full - perfect winter setup.
*Solid A bees.*
Why not A+?
Because I must work them with smoke* non-stop.
These are some feisty bees. But that is OK.*


----------



## GregB

Finally finished my LAD round.
Not perfect.
Some colonies are looking less than optimal - low on food and/or too much brood.
Others are fine and even near perfect.
The usual stuff.

Unsure if I manage to do another round of LAD for the still heavily brooding units as the current round is not very effective.
Starting tomorrow night we have the freezing weather and then who knows what will happen.

To make the experiment correct - I should NOT apply the treatments anymore.
Two annual treatments were the original plan - which I have done.

Good bees will do OK.
Poor bees will not do OK.

It is amazing to me how some of the colonies look so very busy - but when you look, they have no winter stores to speak of.
Weird trait to only have enough to last a couple of months.
Back to this "meat bees" vs. "honey bees" talk.

Somehow on the same exact location some bees manage to find and put away enough honey.
And yet others - maybe they are reading beekeeping forums too much and have no time to do the work.
Dunno.

I made few more sugar frames OTS using stand-by honey frame and replaced near empty frames in two backyard colonies. Still, they will ride the winter on fondant - no other way out.


----------



## GregB

People will argue about C&S honey - if it is any different from the centrifuged honey.
Whatever.
In my opinions, C&S produces better honey - in that you can immediately sense the difference in aroma and flavor.
I will concede part of this will be that some used brood comb is involved.
Better honey - hands down.

I am back to my gradual C&S process over the fall/winter months.
Some frames have already been pulled; others I will gradually pull during the cold season.
On my own pace, just using the kitchen utensils, very little cleanup.

I hated that summer-end extraction I did - probably the least favorably part of the beeking.
Too much mess; too much work.
Honey produced is just regular wildflower summer honey - nothing spectacular, has no aroma to speak of.
I still believe that the process of breaking up the honey into multiple small droplets while centrifuging does something to it that reduces its wholesomeness.

Right now I opened two jars, side-by-side - centrifuged and C&S'ed.
The C&S has nice, fine scent to it.
Centrifuged - no smell to speak of.
Very similar honey, otherwise.


----------



## GregB

Honey on the left is C&S.
Wife just confirmed the difference in the scent - C&S is noticeably stronger.
I think going forward, I will be giving my landlords numbered samples and ask them to evaluate which they like better.
A blind pseudo-scientific survey.


----------



## Gray Goose

some discussions on the "easily" oxidized flavors being exposed to the air as small droplets and being affected.

As well the "brood" comb has a stronger flavor. so crushing that can have different flavors.

BTW I like the stronger darker honeys also.

GG


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## Tigger19687

Personally I like Fall honey and no really spring honey


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## GregB

So, we jumped from summer straight into early winter.
We still had 70F on November 10th.
Going forward - starting today it is consistently sub-freezing.

I feel I am in a good place - completed my pre-winter LAD and revisions just in time - virtually last Wednesday night.
No colonies have much of insulation yet - by the plan.
I want them to settle down properly while it is just cold enough, and they can take it well.

One negative would be that I am aware of *four colonies* that sit on 3-5 frames of brood still - NOT good.
Two of these are full-size.
The other two are mini-nucs.
I will let it all play out by nature but sitting on brood in early winter is a bad place to be.
Nothing else I can do for them.

If these queens cannot read our local season and will subsequently croak - then so be it.
If they somehow make it - they already got (-)'s in my notebook - to be discontinued for poor local fitness.
Unsure they make it due to winter bee wear and likely poor mite situation (because of the brood).


----------



## AR1

Same here. Snowed a bit today.


----------



## GregB

Here is an interesting vid.
I will just keep it under my thread for those who care of my pet peeves.

Two points about the guy in the video:

- for winter he *flips *the hive upside down (see at 9:20) - and the bees winter like that with dramatically lower honey consumption (from 10 kilos to 4 kilos) - the bees winter *over *the honey (that's right!).

- he does *not treat AT ALL* and has done this for many years (see at 23:30 and thru the end) - importantly, he takes his bees away into relative insulation in spring for development and mating, thus *maintaining the lineage* (off Gray Caucasians originally) - the base yard has many neighboring apiaries and yet it makes no difference in terms of mite losses (about none).
One of his comments - " Я знаю пасеку которая с 2002 года не обрабатывалась " (I know an apiary that has not been treated since 2002)


(732) улей в верх ногами. разворот на 180,потребление меда меньше зимой с 10 кг до 4 кг (2-часть) - YouTube


----------



## crofter

GregB said:


> Here is an interesting vid.
> I will just keep it under my thread for those who care of my pet peeves.
> 
> Two points about the guy in the video:
> 
> - for winter he *flips *the hive upside down (see at 9:20) - and the bees winter like that with dramatically lower honey consumption (from 10 kilos to 4 kilos) - the bees winter *over *the honey (that's right!).
> 
> - he does *not treat AT ALL* and has done this for many years (see at 23:30 and thru the end) - importantly, he takes his bees away into relative insulation in spring for development and mating, thus *maintaining the lineage* (off Gray Caucasians originally) - the base yard has many neighboring apiaries and yet it makes no difference in terms of mite losses (about none).
> One of his comments - " Я знаю пасеку которая с 2002 года не обрабатывалась " (I know an apiary that has not been treated since 2002)
> 
> 
> (732) улей в верх ногами. разворот на 180,потребление меда меньше зимой с 10 кг до 4 кг (2-часть) - YouTube


Greg can you give us a bit of explanation about how the bees manage having the whole hive flipped 180.
We are so programmed with the idea that the bees must have the stores above them and that they progress upwards a mm a day and that if they get above their stores they cannot move down into the cold below to recover it.

Now if those frames were filled top to bottom it would not make much difference but the gist of it seems to be about how little they survive on. What am I missing?


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> Greg can you give us a bit of explanation about how the bees manage having the whole hive flipped 180.
> We are so programmed with the idea that the bees must have the stores above them and that they progress upwards a mm a day and that if they get above their stores they cannot move down into the cold below to recover it.
> 
> Now if those frames were filled top to bottom it would not make much difference but the gist of it seems to be about how little they survive on. What am I missing?


First - here is the channel of the "flipping guy" himself - you see this is cold enough place, so get that out the way.
(732) ANT 97 - YouTube

He stated he first experimented with that way back in 2013 yet (from his readings the old books, back to Prokopovich, he got the idea).

Has been doing that way more and more - unsure if ALL of his bees that way or not (did not watch the content that closely, yet).

Basically, *a strong enough colony *will get the honey which is below them - not a problem.
But how this affects the consumption is not exactly clear to me - yet.
Need to re-watch and listen to him talk.

For sure - low consumption tells one thing clearly - bees are not working as hard to get thru winter.
This one is clear.
The question is how.

Yes - we have been programmed by the marketology in many things and ways (that fit the product marketers the best).
Meanwhile, simple, practical and working solutions are sitting in front of us - except they are not mass-marketed.
One of my non-ending rants.


----------



## Snarge

GregB said:


> First - here is the channel of the "flipping guy" himself - you see this is cold enough place, so get that out the way.
> (732) ANT 97 - YouTube
> 
> He stated he first experimented with that way back in 2013 yet (from his readings the old books, back to Prokopovich, he got the idea).
> 
> Has been doing that way more and more - unsure if ALL of his bees that way or not (did not watch the content that closely, yet).
> 
> Basically, *a strong enough colony *will get the honey which is below them - not a problem.
> But how this affects the consumption is not exactly clear to me - yet.
> Need to re-watch and listen to him talk.
> 
> For sure - low consumption tells one thing clearly - bees are not working as hard to get thru winter.
> This one is clear.
> The question is how.
> 
> Yes - we have been programmed by the marketology in many things and ways (that fit the product marketers the best).
> Meanwhile, simple, practical and working solutions are sitting in front of us - except they are not mass-marketed.
> One of my non-ending rants.


Greg

Such an interesting video with unusual ideas.

Do you honestly believe, though, that free-thinking U.S. beekeepers do what they do because of marketing? I find that to be a completely absurd and ridiculous comment. The experienced beekeepers who read, and post, on Beesource are creative, inventive and, often, quite frugal. You underestimate all of us when you say that we have been victims of marketing.

That aside, it is an interesting concept to invert the frames like he does. Bees often survive, though, in spite of what the beekeeper does. Much of his overwintering success could be attributed to the colonies’ strength, the great insulation above, and their constant access to food stores within the hive (whether above, or below).

I put an R10 (2” thick) piece of insulation above my inner cover and leave it on all year. Over the winter my bees are extremely quiet on the comb, evidenced by the lack of detritus on the VB and extremely low food consumption. I also do not have any ventilation other than the lower, reduced entrance; so no chilling chimney effect.

His claims of no losses to mites are possibly true.


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## squarepeg

GregB said:


> For sure - low consumption tells one thing clearly - bees are not working as hard to get thru winter.
> This one is clear.
> The question is how.


i've always been amazed at how little stores my bees go through during our winter dearth here. i chalked it up to a moderate climate, but there is also likely a genetic predisposition as well.

'thrift', or frugality, was one of the secondary traits brother adam sought to fix in his buckfast hybrid strain. from page 78 of his book _beekeeping at buckfast abbey _he writes:

"7. Thrift. Frugality or Thrift is a quality closely connected with the seasonal development of the colonies. Here again we have wide differences between one race and another. I regard the Anatolian the classic example of thrift; the American Italian strains as the classic example of extravagance. The lack of an appropriate measure of thrift seems to me one of the serious deficiencies of many of the present day strains. It is one to which we have been giving much attention in breeding in the course of the years."


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## crofter

It would not be a hard experiment to do. Timing of the upset could use some thinking. If done a bit earlier than pictured the bees might move some honey up to the new "top" after flipping. The Caucasian Grays are noted for being very frugal, are they not?


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## Litsinger

squarepeg said:


> i've always been amazed at how little stores my bees go through during our winter dearth here.


Same here- the 'Reference Colony' equipped with a hive scale utilized a total of 7 net pounds in 20/21 and 12 net pounds in 21/22.


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## Snarge

Litsinger said:


> Same here- the 'Reference Colony' equipped with a hive scale utilized a total of 7 net pounds in 20/21 and 12 net pounds in 21/22.


Litsinger

I installed one hive scale on the 27th of September. It is also my “reference colony”. It’s the wifihive scale with the temp and humidity sensor. Quite interesting to watch the fluctuations.

The only con is that I wish I had more for comparison, but they are so darn expensive.


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## Litsinger

Snarge said:


> The only con is that I wish I had more for comparison, but they are so darn expensive.


True dat- they are handy to get some sense of things however. It is interesting to see the exact moment they decide it's time to start brooding up.


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## Snarge

Litsinger said:


> True dat- they are handy to get some sense of things however. It is interesting to see the exact moment they decide it's time to start brooding up.


Litsinger

I’m eagerly looking forward to that, just to observe the changes. It’s both a tool and my favorite toy right now.


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## GregB

Snarge said:


> Do you honestly believe, though, that free-thinking U.S. beekeepers do what they do because of marketing?* I find that to be a completely absurd and ridiculous comment. *The experienced beekeepers who read, and post, on Beesource are creative, inventive and, often, quite frugal. You underestimate all of us when you say that we have been victims of marketing.


I am one of such few "free-thinking U.S. beekeepers" - let me be blunt here (now that you asked for it).
I do what I do *despite *the mass marketing of things and ideas.
The oldies around here know enough - you can trace my BS writings back if wish.

While the "free thinkers" exist, we are in minority (even maybe vast minority).
I don't find this to be "*a completely absurd and ridiculous comment. "*

Even you list "23 Langstroth, 8 frame mediums "
I got zero Langstroths - never had any, never will, and have no interest in them as hardly suitable for "ergonomic beekeeping".
I am not sure who are these people *who exactly* do I underestimate - "You underestimate all of us ......"


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> and the bees winter like that with dramatically lower honey consumption (*from 10 kilos to 4 kilos*)


I mention this time to a time - typical winter honey consumption in the US is crazy (around me the *conventional *talk is to leave *120 lbs* per a stack). Even *10 kilos (25 lbs)* is crazy low by our local standards.
Most of my bees approach that benchmark - except those "meat bees" and their ilk - see my comment above.

But overall, this again points out the unsuitable bee localization and beekeeping methods - conventionally built around the off-Italian bees.


----------



## Snarge

GregB said:


> I mention this time to a time - typical winter honey consumption in the US is crazy (around me the *conventional *talk is to leave *120 lbs* per a stack). Even *10 kilos (25 lbs)* is crazy low by our local standards.
> Most of my bees approach that benchmark - except those "meat bees" and their ilk - see my comment above.
> 
> But overall, this again points out the unsuitable bee localization and beekeeping methods - conventionally built around the off-Italian bees.





GregB said:


> I am one of such few "free-thinking U.S. beekeepers" - let me be blunt here (now that you asked for it).
> I do what I do *despite *the mass marketing of things and ideas.
> The oldies around here know enough - you can trace my BS writings back if wish.
> 
> While the "free thinkers" exist, we are in minority (even maybe vast minority).
> I don't find this to be "*a completely absurd and ridiculous comment. "*
> 
> Even you list "23 Langstroth, 8 frame mediums "
> I got zero Langstroths - never had any, never will, and have no interest in them as hardly suitable for "ergonomic beekeeping".
> I am not sure who are these people *who exactly* do I underestimate - "You underestimate all of us ......"


Greg

Sorry, I misspoke. I meant to say “Global free-thinkers” (not U.S.).

“Oh, yes. That’s what I should have said” (a la George Costanza 🤣).


----------



## Taku

GregB said:


> typical winter honey consumption in the US is crazy (around me the *conventional *talk is to leave *120 lbs* per a stack)


Am I reading this right? 120lbs per hive per winter?!
The COGS of such commercial operation would be crazy high because of the sugar to honey ratio and not to mention sugar related logistics and increased man hours for feeding. I suppose that’s because of low hive insulation or what?


----------



## ursa_minor

Taku said:


> Am I reading this right? 120lbs per hive per winter?!
> The COGS of such commercial operation would be crazy high because of the sugar to honey ratio and not to mention sugar related logistics and increased man hours for feeding. I suppose that’s because of low hive insulation or what?


We need the hive total weight to be 1201bs, and of that at least 80 lbs. of honey and more for insurance. Not sure what that is related to, possibley heat loss thru the recommended upper entrances? Insulation is certainly not low but with temps. in the -35C to -42C range for possibly weeks it is a very intense climate for the bees.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> We need the hive total weight to be 1201bs, and of that at least 80 lbs. of honey and more for insurance. Not sure what that is related to, possibley heat loss thru the recommended upper entrances? Insulation is certainly not low but with temps. in the -35C to -42C range for possibly weeks it is a very intense climate for the bees.


To be clear @ursa_minor, you are one of the most extreme cases - being in a very hostile Canadian environment.
For your case I don't see 120LBs being excessive.

What I refer to (as I properly should!!!!) - my very local, South WI conditions.
Nothing more.

For South WI conditions, 120LBs are excessive - but that what the local conventions are teaching us.
I have been calling them non-sense - because this is exactly what they are, a non-sense.

Sure, if you insist on wintering mega-strong Italian colony in 3-4 commercial Lang deep boxes and not insulate them much (because you don't need to) - be ready for them to burn thru 120LBs of stores.
Is it a non-sense?
Sure, it is to me.


----------



## jtgoral

ursa_minor said:


> We need the hive total weight to be 1201bs, and of that at least 80 lbs. of honey and more for insurance. Not sure what that is related to, possibley heat loss thru the recommended upper entrances? Insulation is certainly not low but with temps. in the -35C to -42C range for possibly weeks it is a very intense climate for the bees.


Why Etienne Tardif in Yukon does not need so much?


----------



## GregB

Taku said:


> *Am I reading this right? 120lbs per hive per winter?!*
> The COGS of such commercial operation would be crazy high because of the sugar to honey ratio and not to mention sugar related logistics and increased man hours for feeding. I suppose that’s because of low hive insulation or what?


Yes - you are reading that right.

Here is just one comment from my local forum (by a very experienced local beek - running conventional Langs, of course).
And he means honey, not a total weight.
Read on:


> If you have two supers full of honey, you've got *80-100lbs of honey for winter*, plus whatever else they've stored up. That's pretty good. *Usually you shoot for 100-120 lbs*.


Now, this fellow is not a commercial person.
But he is, essentially, copying one of the conventional commercial approaches practiced around here.


----------



## GregB

jtgoral said:


> Why Etienne Tardif in Yukon does not need so much?


First, I would compare local climates of @ursa_minor and E. Tardif - before going any further.

Winters in Central Canadian provinces are brutal even by the AK standards (the flat, wind-swept landscape does not help!)

To compare, some of the local microclimates in AK are rather mild (vs. the central Canada).


----------



## jtgoral

GregB said:


> First, I would compare local climates of @ursa_minor and E. Tardif - before going any further.
> 
> Winters in Central Canadian provinces are brutal even by the AK standards (the flat, wind-swept landscape does not help!)
> 
> To compare, some of the local microclimates in AK are rather mild (vs. the central Canada).


Tardiff is not in Alaska. He is east of mountains and his winter is much worse that in AK.


----------



## GregB

jtgoral said:


> *Tardiff is not in Alaska.* He is east of mountains and his winter is much worse that in AK.


OK, I stand corrected.

I looked him up - *Mount Lorne, YT, Canada*
Surely, he must be well hidden from the winds, down in some valley (no other way, really - if want to survive).
And also, he uses some extreme insulation levels around and over narrow-tall setups, if I recall.
The setup is always a major factor.

To compare, the central plains of Canada are wind-swept thru and thru.
I am unsure what is worse, but the high latitude alone is not enough to be brutal the same


----------



## squarepeg

buried in snow is a pretty good insulator...


----------



## A Novice

Taku said:


> Am I reading this right? 120lbs per hive per winter?!
> The COGS of such commercial operation would be crazy high because of the sugar to honey ratio and not to mention sugar related logistics and increased man hours for feeding. I suppose that’s because of low hive insulation or what?


One year, for fun, I was running Langstroth equipment with migratory tops and large upper entrances, zero insulation.

That was the only year I was measuring hive weight, as without expensive equipment it is tedious. With expensive equipment you still need to clean off ice and snow in order to be accurate.

If I recall correctly, the hives averaged under 3 pounds consumed in January.

Even without insulation, with lots of ventilation, they didn't use much honey. They didn't heat the hive, just the cluster.

So while insulation may reduce food consumption for warming the cluster, the vast majority of stores used are used when raising brood.

I suppose that in the conditions described maintaining the brood area at temperature would require more energy than in a well-insulated colony, and this would become a stronger effect as the brood area is increased.


GregB said:


> First, I would compare local climates of @ursa_minor and E. Tardif - before going any further.
> 
> Winters in Central Canadian provinces are brutal even by the AK standards (the flat, wind-swept landscape does not help!)
> 
> To compare, some of the local microclimates in AK are rather mild (vs. the central Canada).


I suppose in well insulated hives as long as brood rearing is minimal stores usage is very low.

Only year I kept track, usage was high until end of December. Usage thru mid-February was negligible, (like 3 lbs/hive month), and then kicked way up mid-February thru April. Didn't follow the temperature at all. This was in lang equipment w/o insulation in SE Wisconsin. January high/low averages 29F/15F. Lowest stores usage in coldest month. They were using about 1/8 cup of honey per day in January.


----------



## A Novice

GregB said:


> Yes - you are reading that right.
> 
> Here is just one comment from my local forum (by a very experienced local beek - running conventional Langs, of course).
> And he means honey, not a total weight.
> Read on:
> 
> 
> Now, this fellow is not a commercial person.
> But he is, essentially, copying one of the conventional commercial approaches practiced around here.


Well, I have never extracted appreciably more than 30 lbs from a medium super. So you have probably got less than 70 pounds. I suspect with 9 or 8 frames you would get a bit more. Counting the woodenware and wax, you might get close to 50 lbs per super.
That is PLENTY of stores, IMHO.
I shoot for 60 lbs of total stores (honey and pollen) in the hive, which is more than the bees need. I estimate the weight of stores already in the hive (based on 5 lbs for a full deep frame) and feed in the rest. This is too much, but I'd rather too much that too little.
Maybe he is exaggerating the required stores to try to get new beeks to leave enough.
This idea - that you need to leave the bees a significant amount of food for the winter - is very hard to get some new beeks to hear.


----------



## ursa_minor

jtgoral said:


> Why Etienne Tardif in Yukon does not need so much?


That is the local beekeeping recommended amount and that is with the practice of upper entrances to reduce moisture which is the standard here. Etienne is doing interesting work on how no upper entrance does decrease consumption partly because there is no loss of heat.

It is positively blasphemous to suggest no upper entrance in my neck of the woods and as such the consumption of honey is high. At least that is what I think is going on.


----------



## AR1

ursa_minor said:


> It is positively blasphemous to suggest no upper entrance in my neck of the woods and as such the consumption of honey is high. At least that is what I think is going on.


Well, we have a bunch of people here on Beesource trying no tops and small bottom entrances, in a wide variety of climates. That will generate plenty of opinions, come spring, if not a lot of light!

I have been doing that the last several years, and it seems to work out Okay. Sometimes the entrances get blocked by dead bees. This year I have one hive with a small entrance a couple inches higher.


----------



## ursa_minor

AR1 said:


> I have been doing that the last several years, and it seems to work out Okay. Sometimes the entrances get blocked by dead bees. This year I have one hive with a small entrance a couple inches higher.


 It is reassuring to hear of successes like that especially for us first timers. Hope your winter survival rate is 100%


----------



## jtgoral

GregB said:


> OK, I stand corrected.
> 
> I looked him up - *Mount Lorne, YT, Canada*
> Surely, he must be well hidden from the winds, down in some valley (no other way, really - if want to survive).
> And also, he uses some extreme insulation levels around and over narrow-tall setups, if I recall.
> The setup is always a major factor.
> 
> To compare, the central plains of Canada are wind-swept thru and thru.
> I am unsure what is worse, but the high latitude alone is not enough to be brutal the same


Note last year November temperatures in his video:


----------



## AR1

ursa_minor said:


> It is reassuring to hear of successes like that especially for us first timers. Hope your winter survival rate is 100%


Very small-timer, currently 3 hives, none large. Between, luck, mites and yellow jackets, I never know what killed any particular hive. 

Lost several overwinter the last two years, and have tentatively identified poor placement of food stocks as a likely cause, with the last clump of dead bees huddled together in the farthest corner from the entrance, unable to get to food a few inches away. This year I am placing the supplemental sugar not on top the center of the frames, but more widely across the frames, mostly at the back away from the entrance. I also put on some foam insulation across the sides and back, hoping to keep the walls warmer so the cold walls don't make them too sleepy to move around a bit.

These are some of Greg's 'meat bees', I suppose. They do a good job of putting up stores in the spring, but barely hold on the rest of the year. Some hives go into winter with the frames nearly dry and only my sugar blocks for food. In spite of that poor diet, they can survive the winter if all else goes well.


----------



## AR1

Yikes, chilly. Got that cold here I think once in my 60 years. It hits -20 F (-29C) occasionally here but not that often, once a decade or so I'd guess.


----------



## GregB

jtgoral said:


> Note last year November temperatures in his video:......


Thanks to the modern technology - XPS does lots of magic.


----------



## GregB

AR1 said:


> .........................
> These are some of Greg's 'meat bees', I suppose. They do a good job of putting up stores in the spring, but barely hold on the rest of the year. Some hives go into winter with the frames nearly dry and only my sugar blocks for food. In spite of that poor diet, they can survive the winter if all else goes well.


Got some of that "meat bee" too? 

Outside of not producing any honey, they look OK to winter under a Mountain Camp pile.
Next year we'll see which queens will move on forward.
But most likely not the "meaty queen" - they are not paying the due rent.


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> Got some of that "meat bee" too?
> 
> Outside of not producing any honey, they look OK to winter under a Mountain Camp pile.


Yeah, I have had this strain several years and they never give much surplus past the spring flow. Although this year they must have crossed with another type of bee, complete change of color and temperament of the queens raised this year. The old momma queen passed away midsummer. Interested to see if next year is different results.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> - he does *not treat AT ALL* and has done this for many years (see at 23:30 and thru the end) - importantly, he takes his bees away into relative insulation in spring for development and mating, thus *maintaining the lineage* (off Gray Caucasians originally) - the base yard has many neighboring apiaries and yet it makes no difference in terms of mite losses (about none).
> One of his comments - " Я знаю пасеку которая с 2002 года не обрабатывалась " (I know an apiary that has not been treated since 2002)


Indeed, at 00:15 of the video, the "hive flipping guy" confirmed - he has *not *been treating his bees *for 20 years.*
I see no reasons to doubt him.
He does not sell content either.
But he does sell bees.

An interesting commentary from him:

his Gray Caucasian lineage keeps the mite population very low - they are, essentially, mite-free around the season
some monitored resistant black bee lineage from Bashkortostan behaves differently - they are loaded with mites but as they shift into the wintering mode, the mites drop off in large numbers - the bees then just winter normally and start the new season normally
Two different modes of survival that work.
Well localized bee populations too - a big part, if not the major part.


----------



## crofter

Color me skeptical about the mites dropping off in large numbers and the bees winter normally. If it is true and transportable, his fortune could be made!


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> Has been doing that way more and more - unsure if ALL of his bees that way or not (did not watch the content that closely, yet).


He commented he does not flip his foam hives (which are the majority - per the video).
All in all, I don't see this a very user-friendly technique - the flipping part.

But I also have seen people doing exactly this and *have scaled up the rotating setup (we are talking commercial scale). *
Though the main reason in this case - swarming prevention/honey production increase.
(735) Вращающиеся улья Гасана Гусейна Азизова. Пчеловодство Дагестана. - YouTube


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> Color me skeptical about the mites dropping off in large numbers and the bees winter normally. If it is true and transportable, his fortune could be made!


In 2002 he discontinued the treatments.
Off the 500 colonies, *only 20 left* - the usual start-up story.
It has been twenty years as he is off the chems.
He runs about 200 units now - works alone.
He observes the mite loads to be 2% to 8% - which don't kill the bees.

But he sounds a pretty advanced guy - to the point of successfully keeping his lineage clean enough (does isolated mating).

I think the skepticism, @crofter, is largely due to yours (and mine) small scale.

While I am at mercy of my neighborhood, my friend in Milwaukee *runs *the neighborhood.
We were texting few days ago.
This season he has:

*79% untreated*
21% had counts above 3/300 (these needed to be treated or terminated)


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> Color me skeptical about the mites dropping off in large numbers and the bees winter normally. *If it is true and transportable, his fortune could be made!*


And here is an issue - I imagine people buy his "magic bees" and assume they are set (because this is how people usually are).

Well, not so.
They are not set.

Then people are likely to blame him, when the magic does not happen.
This is because they are looking for a "magic pill" without understanding/care of the work and investment that is required for the pill to work.

I had "magic bees" multiple times.
No magic happened.

Why?

neighborhood bees and mites ran me over.
the genetics faded away quickly
small scale of my effort did not create much impact.
Does not work that way.


----------



## Snarge

GregB said:


> And here is an issue - I imagine people buy his "magic bees" and assume they are set (because this is how people usually are).
> 
> Well, not so.
> They are not set.
> 
> Then people are likely to blame him, when the magic does not happen.
> This is because they are looking for a "magic pill" without understanding/care of the work and investment that is required for the pill to work.
> 
> I had "magic bees" multiple times.
> No magic happened.
> 
> Why?
> 
> neighborhood bees and mites ran me over.
> the genetics faded away quickly
> small scale of my effort did not create much impact.
> Does not work that way.


I have a magic wand~it’s called an InstantVap.


----------



## GregB

Snarge said:


> I have a magic wand~it’s called an InstantVap.


And herein we have a problem - *the perceived ease of treatment.*
Which then results in all season long - treat, treat, treat.... (an example of conventional approach - a typical "magic pill").

Aren't you a "free thinker", @Snarge?


----------



## crofter

@Snarge; watch this guy Greg, he draws you in and then sets the hook!

I am old enough to know better than believing every thing happened as stated. I knew a fellow who claimed to never tell a lie but could remember things that never happened!

If the hive flipping was so good for winter survival and so stingy on stores, why are the majority of his hives foam?


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> @Snarge; watch this guy Greg, he draws you in and then sets the hook!
> 
> I am old enough to know better than believing every thing happened as stated. I knew a fellow who claimed to never tell a lie but could remember things that never happened!
> 
> *If the hive flipping was so good for winter survival and so stingy on stores, why are the majority of his hives foam?*


Because then you *don't *need to flip.
Why work extra IF an alternative solution came up.
The point - those foam hives do work.
Free thinking anyone? 

(OK, I cannot get all the details - but he did state - he does NOT flip his two-box foam hives; you can figure out the "why" part).

(But also - once you get the gist of it - bees are wintering above honey - there are other ways to get to the same w/o flipping - a dual-box in foam, I can tell you pretty much how to do w/o flipping)


----------



## crofter

GregB said:


> And herein we have a problem - *the perceived ease of treatment.*
> Which then results in all season long - treat, treat, treat.... (an example of conventional approach - a typical "magic pill").
> 
> Aren't you a "free thinker", @Snarge?


I am a bit enamored with a treatment that happens all summer but with just one application. I have a couple of different magic wands that I made and one of Biermann's but that gets old with the number of Fall treatments necessary to control my neighbors mite problem. 

Anyhow you accomplish it, controlling mites to low numbers seems to be a big part of the secret of having live bees each spring.


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> I am a bit enamored with a treatment that happens all summer but with just one application. I have a couple of different magic wands that I made and one of Biermann's but that gets old with the number of Fall treatments necessary to control my neighbors mite problem.
> 
> Anyhow you accomplish it, controlling mites to low numbers seems to be a big part of the secret of having live bees each spring.


Well, here I am into the second season of 2-treatment/year.
I should be conservative and patient about the conclusions.

When locally here I was telling people I was doing the LAD in November - it was basically from "no comment" to " here Greg goes again" to "why are you opening your bees in November, aren't they gonna die?" 

Since I don't subscribe to the usual August/September treating hysteria - I should be losing the bees as we speak, but I don't.

Around XMas time I will have a better feeling how the winter goes.
When off-chems I had about 50% to-die or soon-to-die by XMas/New Year usually, and then knew the general winter trend.
Soon we'll know.


----------



## Snarge

GregB said:


> Well, here I am into the second season of 2-treatment/year.
> I should be conservative and patient about the conclusions.
> 
> When locally here I was telling people I was doing the LAD in November - it was basically from "no comment" to " here Greg goes again" to "why are you opening your bees in November, aren't they gonna die?"
> 
> Since I don't subscribe to the usual August/September treating hysteria - I should be losing the bees as we speak, but I don't.
> 
> Around XMas time I will have a better feeling how the winter goes.
> When off-chems I had about 50% to-die or soon-to-die by XMas/New Year usually, and then knew the general winter trend.
> Soon we'll know.


Greg

Do you have these conversations in your head, a lot? Jk. Actually~what you’re trying to accomplish is remarkable.

Personally, my purpose on this earth is not to single-handedly save Apis Mellifera.

But…if I put bees in boxes in my back yard, I’m darned sure going to make it my duty to take care of them. I’ll use the research and tools that I have found to be effective. I will choose to keep them as healthy as possible.

My bees are thriving, btw 😉


----------



## GregB

Snarge said:


> what you’re trying to accomplish is remarkable.


One thing I am trying to accomplish is a modern version of what used to be - "peasant beekeeping". 
The least possible work involved while the least possible losses incurred for reasonably good gains.
Which already is much more than the promised "2-inspections per year" but we'll see if this still can be reasonable.



> to single-handedly save Apis Mellifera.


The honeybees (as species!) are doing fine - there is nothing to save there. Thank you.



> Do you have these conversations in your head, a lot? J


Enough.
It is an interesting challenge.


----------



## GregB

Snarge said:


> My bees are thriving, btw


Mine too, seem to be.

But I am ready to write off few heads if comes to it.
Some of them are pretty worthless.


----------



## crofter

How much difference do you think Lactic acid makes compared to oxalic acid if used for a dribble. I have seen mention of different organic acid usage, such as citric and ascorbic etc. I see mention of them all being used for skin peal facials. 

I did not do an early spring OAV treatment this year but with OA contact pads I did not find a single mite in drone brood incidentally exposed. Probably could have gotten by without the multiple rounds of OA I did in October and early Nov.

If you have been deselecting the so called meat bees that may have an effect on mite influx. I do not see much inclination to rob from bees that are mainly Carniolan. That may make a difference in what they bring home mite wise. My bees previously were dominant Carn with a bit of Italian influence but they are getting pretty well overshadowed by the Buckfast genetics I brough in. I dont know what their reputation is robbing wise but they dont seem big on it. Sure nice to work with. The Ontario breeder brings in II queens from Denmark then open mates daughters in an area he manages to saturate with his own drones. He does Liquid Nitrogen assays for hygenic brood removal and rates his queens. Info on his site.
Ferguson Apiaries. He is affiliated with University of Guelp Buckfast program.


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> How much difference do you think Lactic acid makes compared to oxalic acid if used for a dribble.


I don't know, but I hanged up several refs that document 80-90% efficacy (see the Lactic Acid thread).
Probably compatible or close enough so.

This - and the bees *not *eating it - makes it a good pre-winter mite-cleansing wash (food grade too - beer/wine making product).
It is more expensive than OA (but OK for a small scale).


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> If you have been deselecting the so called meat bees that may have an effect on mite influx.


Though the "meat bees" seem to be commonly sold and bought in early season (off the almond pollination and such).
Lots of them around.
It is impossible to deselect the general population around.


----------



## Knoxville1

Greg do you mix the lactic acid with glycerine or water for the Drench. I'm a couple hours South of you in illinois, would there be a problem treating with the lactic in the first part of December?


----------



## GregB

Knoxville1 said:


> Greg do you mix the lactic acid with glycerine or water for the Drench. I'm a couple hours South of you in illinois, would there be a problem treating with the lactic in the first part of December?


It is straight water solution - very attractive for its *simplicity*.
Lactic acid is a sticky liquid as is.

This is how the skin cleansers work - people apply the lactic acid solution to the skin - then peel it off.
It sticks to the bees just the same.

Any time we have a warmish window (45-55F) - you can dribble right between the frames, even if December.
November is best for me as the chances for warmish weather are still high enough and the brood should be mostly gone (it only makes sense to apply when brood-less).


----------



## crofter

GregB said:


> It is straight water solution - very attractive for its *simplicity*.
> Lactic acid is a sticky liquid as is.
> 
> This is how the skin cleansers work - people apply the lactic acid solution to the skin - then peel it off.
> It sticks to the bees just the same.
> 
> Any time we have a warmish window (45-55F) - you can dribble right between the frames, even if December.
> November is best for me as the chances for warmish weather are still high enough and the brood should be mostly gone (it only makes sense to apply when brood-less).


My takeaway on using glycerine in the dribble was that it provides that sticky function but is not likely to be ingested like a sugar syrup carrier. Lactic acid's stickyness probably is what makes it effective mixed only with plain water. One article that pointed to Oxalic acids effect on varro was due to absorption changing the PH level of its body fluid and causing arrythmia of its body fluid circulatory function. They do not have a heart as we know it. Somebody handy with a search could likely pull it up.


----------



## AR1

crofter said:


> I did not do an early spring OAV treatment this year but with OA contact pads I did not find a single mite in drone brood incidentally exposed. Probably could have gotten by without the multiple rounds of OA I did in October and early Nov.


What kind of pads? I have tried the original RO blue shop towels and have good results.


----------



## crofter

Some shop towels and some of the swedish sponge dishcloths. Really not worth a lot as proof of concept since I did not do mite washes. Sticky board on only one tattle tale colony in September. My usual source of external mites had no active colonies this summer so I was in a pretty low pressure mite situation. Looks promising but need to hear more from folks in high pressure areas.


----------



## Litsinger

As Yoda might say, 'Ironic is the extended discussion on OA and LA treatment protocols in the TF subforum.'


----------



## crofter

Litsinger said:


> As Yoda might say, 'Ironic is the extended discussion on OA and LA treatment protocols in the TF subforum.'


Guilty as charged! Have to plead insanity or something-- lost track of what forum I was on, oops.


----------



## squarepeg

no worries frank.


----------



## Litsinger

I'm just poking a little fun- Greg long ago advised us of his intentions :



GregB said:


> In fact, those willing can accuse me of deliberate and methodical undermining of the TF forum.
> LOL





GregB said:


> In my defense of breaking the "TF forum rules" - I have been demonstrating by own example and for long enough time now that the binary TF/non-TF is really a misguided approach.
> In reality it is a range of the practical situations from A to Z that require appropriate course of actions in each and every case.
> 
> So here it is, like it or leave it.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> - for winter he *flips *the hive upside down (see at 9:20) - and the bees winter like that with dramatically lower honey consumption (from 10 kilos to 4 kilos) - the bees winter *over *the honey (that's right!).


I was able to find the original print source from back 1929 the resulted in this "wintering above honey" approach.
This keeper from Bashortostan named Schipakin had this hives with a single entrance just below the lid - see picture.

Moreover, back in 1920's the upper only entrance was called "American entrance" by the Russians. 
So, really, it was just some local experimentation based on the information originating from America.
Namely, someone by name Brown from the States was named as the one who has beekeeping using only the upper entrances - as opposed to Langstroth/Dadant with their bottom-only entrances. 
(The 1920's Gleanings should have the original materials).


----------



## GregB

I personally very much would like to see if very *limited *OAD/LAD treatment is sufficient (vs. the treat-treat-treat approaches, which include the media too).

One (1) strategically placed drip per a season would be ideal if I could get away with it.
But since I already started with two (2) drips, I will stick with this regiment for 3-5 years, so that the experiment is consistent.

Per the last season I could see that random bees (in fact, mostly "meaty" bees) only marginally survived on 2 drips.
The more resistant lineage did fine on 2 drips.

Combination of well localized and reasonably resistant bees, appropriate equipment, and optional 1-2 single organic drips per a season could be a theoretical recipe of the modern "peasant-style" beekeeping

Will see; it is a long and slow slog.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> - he does *not treat AT ALL* and has done this for many years (see at 23:30 and thru the end) - importantly, he takes his bees away into relative insulation in spring for development and mating, thus *maintaining the lineage* (off Gray Caucasians originally) - the base yard has many neighboring apiaries and yet it makes no difference in terms of mite losses (about none).
> One of his comments - " Я знаю пасеку которая с 2002 года не обрабатывалась " (I know an apiary that has not been treated since 2002)


Upon a slow rewatch, Roman Silitscki (I now picked up his name) says - "without isolation it does not work".
This is about his treatment-free management and specifically about his *queen mating.*

Nothing new, but yet another independent confirmation of the same.


----------



## jtgoral

GregB said:


> Upon a slow rewatch, Roman Silitscki (I now picked up his name) says - "without isolation it does not work".
> This is about his treatment-free management and specifically about his *queen mating.*


This is why in my case buying once OAV equipment is cheaper then buying packages every year. So is buying insulated hives once and saving on winter sugar feeding every year


----------



## GregB

jtgoral said:


> This is why in my case buying once OAV equipment is cheaper then buying packages every year. So is buying insulated hives once and saving on winter sugar feeding every year


In your case - hands down.
Most of the straight treatment-free talks don't really apply to you, @jtgoral.
Mating to "local bees" and similar fallacies.


----------



## GregB

It has been snowing, 3rd day in a row now.
Technically it still should melt.










Reviewing the holdings as we enter 2022/2023 winter.

Some people prefer to equalize everything.
I like the opposite - variety (of bees and hives and setups and what have you).
Let see here:
- 10 units winter on 7-8 Ukrainian frames
-- regular long hives, hybrid hives, temp hives
- 6 units winter on 5-6 Ukrainian frames.
-- double-boxed, temp hives, double-wall hives, regular 6F nuc boxes

1 unit is the vertical hive (CVH on custom mini-frames)
11 units are mini-nucs
-- of the minis
-- 4 minis winter in regular 6F nuc boxes
-- 1 mini winters in a full-size hive
-- 6 minis winter in foam coolers.
------------------
Total: 28 heads

Odd balls that are included in the mix:

one case of obvious "meatbees" (commented earlier)
two cases of still brooding on full-size frames (very poor behavior for the place and the season)
two cases of still brooding on mini-frames (same issue)

Feeding:

all minis had to be fed for meaningful winter stores - will see if that will be sufficient
4 of the 5-6F units needed to be fed
2 of the 7-8F units needed to be fed
10 units were not fed (but some may need the dry supplement, for sure the "meatbees").


----------



## ursa_minor

GregB said:


> I personally very much would like to see if very *limited *OAD/LAD treatment is sufficient (vs. the treat-treat-treat approaches, which include the media too).


If you could set up such a small experiment with using limited OAD/LAD what would you suggest is the best way to approach this with an eye to limiting variables in order to come to a reasonable conclusion.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> *If you could set up such a small experiment with using limited OAD/LAD *what would you suggest is the best way to approach this with an eye to limiting variables in order to come to a reasonable conclusion.


But I am - running exactly this experiment and ranting about it non-stop. 
This will be the second winter now.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> If you could set up such a small experiment with using limited OAD/LAD what would you suggest is the best way to approach this with an eye to limiting variables in order to come to a reasonable conclusion.


As you know, Ursa - my chemical-free base winter survival was *13% *(established over the 5-year run).
This run included a variety of bee lineages:

there were lines documented to be mite-resistant/tolerant, per the sources where I got them.
there were random bees sourced via my swarm trapping
overall, the resistant/tolerant bees did better in that sometimes they did survive the winter OR they died later in the winter (vs. the random bees);
some of the random bees did well too (could have been Russians or VSH) - regardless, I lost all of them in the end
this chem-free approach was nowhere near to be sustainable - I predicably lost (nearly) all bees every year regardless of their origins and genetics
So now, as described some pages back, I run the 3–5-year sequence where I do the following:

I have two groups of bees where group #1 is documented to be of mite-resistant/tolerant lineage and group #2 is random (the resistant lineage is originating from "Lloyd Street Bees")
this season again I applied brood-less OAD across all my holdings *once, *done mid-summer (as a part of maintenance/expansion work - so it has been combined with other routine apiary work, not a special project)
then very recently I did the season-end LAD across all my holdings *once *(again, as a part of seasonal apiary work, not a special project)
overall, I applied the least possible toxic chems (OA and LA) only twice for the season and did it in the most safe, efficient and effective way, possible for the circumstances (cheapest too!!!)
The expected outcomes are (the hypothesis, if you call it that):

winter survival will be significantly better than the chem-free 13% (was 92% last season)
mite-resistant/tolerant bees will show better results than random bees
the bees that appear to have poor localization will show poor wintering results even with the mite factor reduced (e.g., due to unseasonal brooding or poor foraging behavior)
Overall, I want to see if under relatively harsh conditions (colder climate + high mite pressure), a combination of
(#1) reasonably well localized and mite-resistant/tolerant bees and
(#2) minimal supplemental treatment (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!done properly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
can result in sustainable, low intensity small-scale beekeeping (modern peasant beekeeping - a good label).

Theoretically, this should work.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> If you could set up such a small experiment with using limited OAD/LAD what would you suggest is the best way to approach this with an eye to limiting variables in order to come to a reasonable conclusion.


And so - you should run at least somewhat a meaningful dataset - which starts at about N=10 and up.
With the exception of my first year, I always had 10+ units on hand, pre-winter.

Then you can split your dataset into two groups randomly and treat them differently - chem/no-chem - see how they winter. But the no-chems outcome, most likely, will be poor for you.

Rather do - do one group "treat-treat-treat" and the other group "two treatments" and see if strategic two treatments are just as good as the treat-treat-treat.

* treat-treat-treat - pretty much, *continuous *anti-mite pressure (including media) - if you read the BS, this is the gist of it - indiscriminate, non-stop, continuous pressure around the season, all season, any season. 

I understand your bees are of some undetermined, commercial sourcing, so most likely no need to presume they have any meaningful resistance. Just ignore that.


----------



## ursa_minor

GregB said:


> *One (1) strategically placed drip per a season *would be ideal if I could get away with it.
> But since I already started with two (2) drips, I will stick with this regiment for 3-5 years, so that the experiment is consistent.


This is the part I was referring to I think when I asked if you could set up such an experiment, I do understand you are preforming experiments with minimal treating and I am following your results.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> what would you suggest is the best way to approach this
> 
> *One (1) strategically placed drip per a season*
> This is the part I was referring


Ok, I would do a single OAD combined with mid-summer brood-less splitting.
Compare this with the "treat-treat-treat" (TTT) and see if there is a significant difference.

Notice:

for most off-the-shelf bees one (1) OAD per season may be insufficient (and the TTT is required)
for a reasonably resistant/tolerant bee one (1) OAD per season may be sufficient (and the TTT is over-kill)
So, you need to establish your bee baseline (and the corresponding expectations).

In my case, once I have some consistent findings about "two (2) OAD/LAD treatments per season" - I will regroup into "one (1) OAD or LAD per season" and see if even that is enough *for locally good bees*.*


----------



## GregB

Some 2022 crop samples. 










A nice, heavy frame - before slicing and dicing.


----------



## GregB

Speaking of entrances again..
Here what the 20-year TF beekeeper does for outside wintering - upper-mid, asymmetric entrance done the warm way.
No bottom holes/screens - all is solid
No drafting.
Very tight, impermeable and insulated top - this is for the wintering above the honey.
Works for him well.


----------



## drummerboy

"Works for him well" - That is all we can ever really contribute, no? Pass on whatever works for us, to include our own evolution.. 

Thanks Man!


----------



## GregB

drummerboy said:


> "Works for him well" - That is all we can ever really contribute, no? Pass on whatever works for us, to include our own evolution..
> 
> Thanks Man!


I pretty much confirmed already that the bees do prefer my upper entrances (over the bottom ones) - because I run both. 
But I also do not have "thru the hive" draft - due to my custom setups.
"Thru the hive" draft is one typical issue coming from the era of excessive ventilation teachings (as if it is necessary - false).

Yes - the bees jump headfirst into the snow - those dumb southern bees - right thru the *bottom entrance* too. 
Documented one instance of that "snow-diving" right here:
GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees. | Page 69 | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


----------



## GregB

drummerboy said:


> "Works for him well" - That is all we can ever really contribute, no? Pass on whatever works for us, *to include our own evolution.. *
> 
> Thanks Man!


The evolution is a tough one.
Will try my hardest this spring to convince the locals to buy the bees from me and local friends! 

It is just them dummies cannot wait a couple of months to get the better bees.
Why wait?
If even Farm&Fleet sells them the early season bees.


----------



## GregB

Long day....
Early start - taking the kids to their athletics' stuff.
Finally, by mid-day got the bee stuff ready and took off.
Went by one landlord - picked a bag of pig feet (will be cooking those after I torch and clean them) - dropped off his honey.
Then spent the daylight hours insulating my minis and few big ones.
.....And stole more honey.
.....Got home, tired and cold (darn, it was cold and windy).
Prepped and baked two apple crisps.
And finished it off sweating in the sauna. 
Yah.


----------



## drummerboy

GregB said:


> The evolution is a tough one.
> Will try my hardest this spring to convince the locals to buy the bees from me and local friends!
> 
> It is just them dummies cannot wait a couple of months to get the better bees.
> Why wait?
> If even Farm&Fleet sells them the early season bees.



Name calling doesn't strengthen an opinion, it weakens it. Keeping in mind that humans have been conditioned to be impatient would be a good thing to consider before labeling anyone as "dummies". 

No one is born 'knowing' everything....that's what life is for, to learn, to expand our understanding, to know......, no?

That said, as we are relatively close (just under 300 miles), we might be willing to purchase or exchange some queens with you in 2023....if all goes well. 

Like you though, we remain convinced that the best 'breeder' queens come from our own winter-survivor queens, and it's from those survivors that we get the best quality queens. imho

Local bees rule! ....But one must start somewhere.  And getting bees from 'wherever' is the usual option, especially for beginners.

After one season, winter-survivors 'are' considered local bees. We should be teaching potential beekeepers 'how' to keep bess without having to buy them ever again.....after their first purchase or caught swarm.


----------



## GregB

drummerboy said:


> Name calling doesn't strengthen an opinion, it weakens it. Keeping in mind that humans have been conditioned to be impatient would be a good thing to consider before labeling anyone as "dummies".
> .............


There is a very good book - Beekeeping for Dummies.
If you buy it - you are a dummy (else don't buy it).
This book is meant for dummies (just as it is titled), and it is very popular for good reasons.

I highly recommend the book as I own a copy (it is lended away at the moment).
Not a problem labelling anyone a dummy here.

I was a dummy as recently as yesterday - I should know better to NOT be leaving for my remote yards without a phone.
Still done it, dummy!


Yes, you start somewhere but yet some people never learn - how we arrived at this sad state of affairs.
Forever dummy.


----------



## William Bagwell

GregB said:


> Not a problem labelling anyone a dummy here.


I'd rather be an Idiot  But good point on the basic info. Need to add a copy of Dummies to my collection...

And boggle, your both in the same state and 300 miles apart!


----------



## GregB

William Bagwell said:


> And boggle, your both in the same state and 300 miles apart!


It is closer to 200 miles as crow flies. 
But not that important.
We are not even a big state (rather mid-size).


----------



## drummerboy

Let those being insulted decide whether it's offensive or not. 

The book (yes I own a copy) "Beekeeping for Dummies" was never meant to insult anyone. 

I find it amazing how easily humans can justify their poor choices in life. So it goes.

...so ya wanna trade some queens next year or not?


----------



## GregB

drummerboy said:


> ...so ya wanna trade some queens next year or not?


We could, drummer.
Let see how the winter progresses.

If anything, I am more interested in queens that have a solid winter under their belt.
Of my own stock, I can already see how some of the young queens are not good enough - not for me.
One cannot know how they perform locally until a winter test is performed.

As well, I already see a need to adjust a couple of minis - too much moisture build-up.
That experiment alone could cost me some queens.


----------



## GregB

drummerboy said:


> Let those being insulted decide whether it's offensive or not.


If you review at 2-3 first pages of this very thread, you'll see some of that - pretty personalized too. 
It is all written in history. LOL
Oh well.
Moving along.


----------



## Tigger19687

GregB said:


> As well, I already see a need to adjust a couple of minis - too much moisture build-up.
> That experiment alone could cost me some queens.


So what do you plan on doing? So they have extra insulation on top of an upper entrance?


----------



## GregB

Tigger19687 said:


> So what do you plan on doing? So they have extra insulation on top of an upper entrance?


There is plenty of insulation as is.

I will make extra vents to allow the excess moisture to escape - at the upper back wall.
This is in a couple of foam nucs, specifically.

I will describe with pics my mini-nuc wintering setups when get to it.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> Yes, the do-nothing certainly does not work for me.
> I end up with dead bees.
> 
> But evaluation/selection based on (1)*the minimal treatment baseline *(just to keep the bees alive) and (2)the winter survivability test - now we are talking achievable business.


Reviewing some old comments.
Perhaps it is time to coin the term - Reduced Treatments (RT) or Treatment-reduced (TR).

RT/TR - I find to be more intuitive than ambiguous IPM (whatever IPM means - I never remember or fully understand).


----------



## GregB

Gradually insulating my holdings.

Full size hives will be simple.

follower boards on both sides (air pockets)
electronics bag
a couple of folded polyester blankets
no longer bother with wraps and such (just unnecessary hassle for me).


----------



## GregB

Here is strong colony that ended up in a 6F nuc box with thin walls (ran out of hives).
They started as a 2F June mating split, mated the queen OK.
I filled them with rest of the frames and went away.
Pretty effective and hands-off.

Recently I opened them the first time since July-ish - late season audit/treatment.
Them things are heavy as if full of bricks; nothing else to do for me.

Went ahead and added XPS on both walls and some extra wrap.


----------



## GregB

Here below is a very good video from the same series of "War and beekeeping".
Why is it here?

Because this is once in a lifetime opportunity for absolutely unique observations that otherwise would not be possible.
Very ironic, but these videos document excellent ad-hoc experiment - what locally unfit bees look like if a beekeeper removed from the picture.

The video producing beek himself does not realize this - he is focused on other things - he is all about saving his bees.

It is an excellent demonstration of bees poorly locally fit - the "meatbees" I would call them.
They built up a decent cluster for the winter, but yet they are doomed.
This is about how some of my bees look like at the end of the season.

They are doomed because at the end of the season they have no honey stored away.
The beekeeper was away for 6 months and, fortunately, now he will save them.

But otherwise, these bees are doomed - and in my book these bees should be discontinued because they are unable to provide for themselves.
Terrible localization.
We here don't talk enough about the phenomenon.
In fact, the localization is essentially ignored as a factor.
Yet it maybe the #1 in the entire list.

As far as I am concerned, this one realization comes to me after watching a row of war beekeeping videos.

Certainly, some bees swarmed and still, *they should be able to store enough for themselves, at least.*
If left alone this is what the bees should do - else, they will die.
This is a macro-issue where even the mites are not relevant that much.

The beekeeper notes how some of the bees (the Carnica as he denoted) - were packed with stores - on the same exact apiary. Excellent chance to review the bees and make selection choices.
I may even comment under his video.
Unsure if he realizes this.

Just watch and ignore the talk.
Just watch as he inspects the frames and see for yourself.

(783) Пасека в ноябре 6 месяцев пчелы без пчеловода #3 Подготовка УС к зимовке - YouTube


----------



## squarepeg

good observation greg. i concur that these colony operations may well have a genetic basis, and that these traits are undesirable for both bee and beekeeper.

i have one colony at an outyard that has been 'exposed', (cross mating with commercially produced colonies) for a few years now. they are very yellow in color compared to the darker bees that i am used to. they not only failed brood break during our summer dearth as my locally adapted colonies do, but brooded like crazy through it and did not leave harvestable honey.

i call them stupid bees, and can't imagine a location where these bees are worth having, save a pollination or package bee operation. i don't begrudge those folks in the least, as those traits work well for them, although such colonies tend to also be mite factories and managing that appears to be getting more and more challenging.

this particular colony is a 3 - 4 year treatment free survivor that appears to be have been phenotypically transformed over a few years time. if it happens to survive this winter, i'll pinch the queen, and make as many splits as i can using selected queen cells.


----------



## GregB

squarepeg said:


> *i call them stupid bees,* and can't imagine a location where these bees are worth having, save a pollination or package bee operation. i don't begrudge those folks in the least, as those traits work well for them, although such colonies tend to also be mite factories and managing that appears to be getting more and more challenging.


Exactly, square.

Too bad, but these exact bees make very good material to be sold to the beginning beeks - which then in turn undermines our local efforts.

This very spring one of my potential buyers could not wait long enough and opted out for some of these "meatbees" in early spring (I commented on that too).

Right, why should he wait for Greg's bees in June when someone just gave him the bees in April.
To him it made immediate sense.
Too bad - but my explanation of why it takes to wait for better localized bees until June rang hollow to him.

Continuous undermining of the basic localization is one of the global issues on hand.
This is not even about mites (mites are only a subset issue), it is a bigger and immediate problem - that does not get enough attention.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> I may even comment under his video.
> Unsure if he realizes this.


I did comment along the line that he has a chance to review his holdings in terms of bad/good localization.
Then in spring to continue only the bees that have set themselves up well for the winter.

The blogger responded:
Agreed. This actually makes sense.


----------



## GregB

This season I did not do a single mite count.
I just don't care.
Besides, it is more work while I am already behind on about 100 projects.

I am not a breeder to evaluate the bees and select them to some desired criteria.
Let them count.

Meanwhile I like the position of this 20-year treatment free fellow (already mentioned above).
(796) улей в верх ногами. разворот на 180,потребление меда меньше зимой с 10 кг до 4 кг (2-часть) - YouTube

As of late, he does not care either - he simply evaluates his bees per the overall status - if they appear healthy, strong enough, and meet his business requirements - they are keepers.
His current business model is working for him - allowing solid operation without treatments involved.

As I mentioned - he described how at one time he kept two resistant lineages -
1) Gray Caucasian off-shoots and
2) Bashkortostan Black bee off-shoots.

Both did well.
Though he was less happy with the Black bees - did not clarify, but I can only guess he did not like the defensiveness.
Now he only maintains the #1 (which most likely amounts to some no-name localized mutts at this time).

But overall, he described how the #1 kept the mites low at all times while the #2 had high mite counts and were not bothered by them noticeably. There were two distinctly different approaches to the mite problem used by different bees.
Both worked.
This is typically described as "mite resistance" vs. "mite tolerance".

"Mite resistance" vs. "mite tolerance" is not a new point.
But it shows how solely focusing on the low mite counts is not a balanced approach to the mite resistance resolution.

What this means for me?
This means I applied my minimal (yet strategic) treatments for the season, and this is it.
I will evaluate how the bees will winter along the way and this is as much as I will do (will save some bees as needed so I can still use them next season).

Some will winter better than others - if the past winter was a good predictor (which it most likely was).
Those better wintering, while requiring the least inputs from me - are the keepers.
I don't know the mite situation at all.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> Here below is a very good video from the same series of "War and beekeeping".
> Why is it here?


The #4 of the same series - as the beek keeps working thru his abandoned place, the trend becomes obvious - about only one out of four hives have the honey saved away for the winter.
A beek neighbor stopped by - they converse - the neighbor has the same ratio - about 1 of 4 hives has sufficient honey stores.

This means ~75% of the apiary is doomed (even thou they survived the mites this long).

This also means ~25% of the apiary show good localization as they found enough forage at this very location and at the same very time.

Eye opening.

My next question is:
What kind of management are people conducting so that 75% of large colony sample are not fit to survive on their own? 

Obviously, these bees did well under the close care - which typically amounted to taking the honey away and replacing it by sugar syrup. Pretty typical commercialized management - which in turn produced locally unfit bees.

PS: the beek obviously thought about my comment regarding the selection opportunity - he talks about it in his video. 

(799) Пасека в ноябре 6 месяцев пчелы без пчеловода #4 Нет меда на зиму Естественный отбор - YouTube


----------



## Litsinger

Thought of your thread when I saw this product- wonder if a homemade version like this (i.e. grid) that could contain dry sugar would be a good idea for a horizontal hive:









In-Hive Pollen Frame Feeder - HappBee Acres Bee Supply


Get pollen in the hive where the bees actually need it. This pollen frame feeder holds pollen supplement in either loose powder form or you can smear your pollen patty in the cells. Cells are slightly tilted so the powder does not fall out. Feeding in the hive saves you money by not free feeding




happbeeacres.com





At least might make it easier to work the dry sugar into.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Thought of your thread when I saw this product- wonder if a homemade version like this (i.e. grid) that could contain dry sugar would be a good idea for a horizontal hive:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In-Hive Pollen Frame Feeder - HappBee Acres Bee Supply
> 
> 
> Get pollen in the hive where the bees actually need it. This pollen frame feeder holds pollen supplement in either loose powder form or you can smear your pollen patty in the cells. Cells are slightly tilted so the powder does not fall out. Feeding in the hive saves you money by not free feeding
> 
> 
> 
> 
> happbeeacres.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At least might make it easier to work the dry sugar into.


A matter of fact, a guy here made up something similar out of chicken ware.

One thing to keep in mind - if left in hive for any reason for too long - the bees will fill with combs and stuff - another project to handle.

That way just using the combs works better; upon cleaning the cells out - bees will use the combs as intended.

I pulled this one out of a mini - see how most of the sugar caked in and will stay in the cells as intended.
Just need water to be consumed.
In time, the cells will get repurposed to the proper usage.


----------



## GregB

Last Friday (Nov 25th) got into my largest "coffin" in the hopes to finally reduce them to the winter setup.
These idiots are still brooding - including even open brood.
That idiot queen must go (in spring).
If they make it.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> These idiots are still brooding - including even open brood.


Wow... some of mine down here have NO BROOD of any kind by the beginning of October.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Wow... some of mine down here have NO BROOD of any kind by the beginning of October.


Right.
With these kinds of bees up here - this is pure non-sense.

And let me tell you - lots of people around me probably have the same issue and yet have no idea.
You know - "they closed the bees for the winter" thing.

I am about the only local fool who opens the hives in late November.
Not really sure who is the fool here - but local survival is crap, just for the unfit bees alone.

(Before we even talk mites - how would you even treat these misfits? Just the TTT).

The misfit queen is an F2 off my main VSH mother.
Talking about some crazy out-crossing.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> The misfit queen is an F2 off my main VSH mother.


Bummer- hopefully there are some suitable daughters / granddaughters popping up too?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Bummer- hopefully there are some suitable daughters / granddaughters popping up too?


Yep, most others are rather agreeable to my taste.

Of the #1 VSH line:
7/8 of F1s - OK.
10/12 of F2s - OK.

In general, they are OK to GOOD in the timely brooding department.
But there are few crazy misfits.

As control - my promising random line which I preserved:
4/5 of F1 - OK

One crazy misfit too.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Yep, most others are rather agreeable to my taste.


That's pretty good results- is it safe to say that the single Olympic Wilderness Apiaries queen you bought now serves as the primary maternal foundation of your apiary stock?

Are you considering bringing in any additional stock with bona fide survival-stock credentials?


----------



## Nicksotherhoney

Litsinger said:


> That's pretty good results- is it safe to say that the single Olympic Wilderness Apiaries queen you bought now serves as the primary maternal foundation of your apiary stock?
> 
> What are your opinions about this queen from Olympic Wilderness? I’ve always been curious about them and don’t know of anyone personally who uses them. Thanks in advance!


----------



## Nicksotherhoney

Mixed my response with @Litsinger quote. My bad!


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> That's pretty good results- is it safe to say that the single Olympic Wilderness Apiaries queen you bought now serves as the primary maternal foundation of your apiary stock?
> 
> Are you considering bringing in any additional stock with bona fide survival-stock credentials?


Yes, that simple OWA mother is still my foundation - fingers crossed for one more season.

The Lloyd Street Apiaries gave me another queen (different and new VSH line #2) - as a potential replacement for the OWA lineage.

Since I am being a dummy (sometimes!) - I did not make her immediate backup daughters. Really. Duh.
Fingers crossed she makes it in a mini-nuc (another untested dumb move!).
If I squeak by, we'll have lots of interesting developments in 2023.

If lucky:
1) Two VSH lineages to work with - #1 and #2 (minus the misfits).
2) Mated away queens to work with - line #1 mated on the line #2 DCAs.
3) My random promising lineage to work with - should be mated on the line #1 DCAs (minus the misfits).

On top of these:
- my mini-nuc wintering results will be known - bad/good/ugly/whatever

But even in worst case scenario, I should have several solid line #1 queens.
I'd be very surprised to them not making it in tested equipment and RT assistance.


----------



## GregB

Nicksotherhoney said:


> What are your opinions about *this queen from Olympic Wilderness*? I’ve always been curious about them and don’t know of anyone personally who uses them. Thanks in advance!


Lloyd Street Apiaries maintained/sold them for some seasons.
I can tell - they are solid.
In my last pre-Oxalic year, the sole OW queen was the only survivor out of 15-ish colonies - she is my current maternal and paternal source still.

AFAIK - Lloyd Street since *discontinued *that line because of higher than commonly desired defensiveness.
This I confirm; too bad.
These are good bees, but some queens can be feisty.
Some of my OW queens definitely are feisty.

For sure, these bees bring enough honey for themselves and for me - both.
Good localization traits for here.
Winter well - when compared to random commercial stock (mostly almond bees here).

But the real issue is - the people are spoiled by commercial bees and unable to properly use standard beekeeping equipment and to properly work the bees.
This is my response to the OW critique.

I'd recommend the OW bees per what I know.

For high density backyard keeping - need to evaluate queen by queen - for safety.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> Yep, most others are rather agreeable to my taste.
> 
> Of the #1 VSH line:
> 7/8 of F1s - OK.
> 10/12 of F2s - OK.
> 
> In general, they are OK to GOOD in the timely brooding department.
> But there are few crazy misfits.


To clarify this - even some the OK brooding cases are still running into October and thru October.
They are OK vs. the craziest misfits.
Stil a borderline.

While still remembering - I should write down the notes regarding each queen - only about half can be rated GOOD.


----------



## GregB

So yes, speaking of the equipment...
This winter I got three main wintering sections - large clusters, small clusters, and mini-clusters.

Speaking of the mini-clusters - broke these into three different equipment configs (depending on what I had on hand):
1) regular nuc boxes - 5
2) tall foam boxes - 2
3) flat foam boxes - 4

I have no idea if any of the minis will survive at all OR the equipment will make difference, but we will see.
I want to think that the coolers may provide better insulation value BUT the rodent issue is of real concern there (and potentially moisture).
The regular nuc boxes will be drier (but maybe colder???? if that will matter) and provide superior rodent protection.

Practically speaking, I am unsure if I will bother bringing the minis into the garage or not.
It is a hassle and may do more harm than good - I have no clue (and no reliable info sources either - compatible to my conditions).
I did a very good job insulating as is.

Of course, a mild and snowy winter would be a plus - but I have idea how this will work out.

All of the minis winter on about 8 mini-frames each (reasonably heavy too after feeding).
Starting soon here (coming weekend?) I will put fondant patties on top of each mini cluster and will ensure they can access the fondant at all times.

1)The mini-clusters in the regular nuc boxes have about R15-20 above them.
Plenty of air above insulation to dissipate the excess moisture too.
Sides are internally sandwiched and additional outside XPS slabs added too.



















2) tall foam boxes have extra space above insulation as well (with extra vent added);
tall configuration allows to add multiple slabs of foam above the cluster and still have space for feeding too;
it is convenient, but I did notice moisture build-up above since the foam does not absorb it not lets it out - hence the need for additional vents;
see the moisture on the film - this was before I added the vents.





























3) finally the flat coolers - the easiest method as I need to do nothing BUT it is very little space above the framelets for feeding/insulation.
I will just somehow make very flat fondant pancakes or will do the MC
any additional insulation I simple pile on the top of the coolers - extra slabs of XPS work (the easiest yet).


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Yes, that simple OWA mother is still my foundation - fingers crossed for one more season.


Very cool. So is it now safe to say that even in your genetic cesspool you are getting better than average results from the progeny of this single survivor-stock queen you imported?


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Very cool. So is it now safe to say that even in your genetic cesspool you are getting better than average results from the progeny of this single survivor-stock queen you imported?


I have a strong hunch - yes.

If not for the strong outside pressure exerted onto me by the "meatbees" - I'd be in much better place now.
But the "meatbees" keep coming and coming. 

This season I released a strong cohort of the drones from the survivor queen - if this means anything, but it is the best I can do.
I wish these all got used up - but there was plenty wasted too.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> But the "meatbees" keep coming and coming.


Maybe you need to fight fire with fire...


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Maybe you need to fight fire with fire...


How do you mean?

BTW, if things pan out and I get extra bees next season - I once again want to populate my artificial bee-trees and just let them be unmaintained (let them swarm, etc).
I attempted this once using low-value "meatbees" - of course, they predictably died out.

But good grade "honeybees", once installed, could be a different story.
So, yes, I really meant it - granted I have good survival into the 2023, I should have too many bees on hand.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> How do you mean?


Import more resistant base stock.


----------



## GregB

Litsinger said:


> Import more resistant base stock.


Ah that.
As I mentioned - if this winter is successful, in few short months I should start the season with the

additional VSH line (#2) and
two mated-away VSH line #1 F2s (mated in the line #2 yard).

Right there I already have some fresh blood added.
Exciting!

Forget honey. 
The local bee population project is much more fun.
Too much experimentation already.


----------



## Litsinger

GregB said:


> The local bee population project is much more fun.


I like it- I am eager to see how this continues to develop for you.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> So, about the "meat bees" vs. "honey bees".


I should comment about the term "meat bees".
I did not invent this term.

Rather I just stole it from the Russian-language beek-space.
They commonly use this term.

"Meat bees" refers to the bees that tend to run up very large colonies, winter in large clusters, not efficient with the stores, and often (not always!) produce little honey due to running up too much brood when they should not be.

In short - they are more about producing "meat" (i. e. the bees) than about producing honey.
Similar to some cows producing meat and other cows producing milk.

The Meat Bees.


----------



## GregB

Given a chance (we had just above freezing today) - I went thru my minis and placed hard feed on top of the framelets.
This involved separating some of the framelets few times, so the bees can come up if they want to.

It looks like a typical mini-cluster is on sitting on 4-5 framelets (2-3 Lang medium frames).
Pretty much I settled on leaving them as-is - on their summer spots.
Not going to bother with taking them home and all that minutia.

The most benefit of the experiment (if it works) - to see if the mini-clusters have a good probability of wintering thru without too much hassle. It is already kind of is but taking them home would be even more work.

Those sitting in regular boxes have about R-20 insulation above and ventilated thru the top.
Will see what happens.





















The foam coolers are ventilated thru the bottoms.


----------



## msl

A few years when I was doing all the small cell builder development stuff Juhani put me in touch with a Fnish beekeeper (and a II big wig in the country) who was grafting in mateing nuc cellbuilders The principles and some useful practices for queen rearing - Eesti ... (not the little foam ones, bigger) but.. as it turns out he was OVERWINTERING the little foam ones!!

any way, I thought it may be useful for you, maby try some cellar wintering!!!


> If you want to try to overwinter Apideas, replace the original plastic cover and roof with a piece of styrofoam, put 4 Apideas in a group and cover them with a Styrofoam hood. Have a diam. about 15mm hole in the styrofoam cover for feeding. It is better to replace the original feeder with extra frames. The Apideas should be packed with bees. For the winter I have the Apideas in a cellar with a temperature of about 5-10 degrees C. They will be in the cellar about 15 Nov. - 30 March. Last winter I left them with shallow 250 ml feeder jars below the hood. No problems. Please find some pictures here, browse down:













> The box and roof with the feeding holes that I used successfully for wintering the Apideots. Wintering in a dry basement, 5 rings better than three.





> Feeding of aphids for wintering. Each has 5 rings and bees hit with a mallet.





> This casing descends over the nests when the feeding cans are removed. This wintering has not been successful yet, now a new attempt with a larger number of bees and 5 hives.
> Hahaha, update: they all overwintered and turned into money in the spring.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> A few years when I was doing all the small cell builder development...........
> .................
> any way, I thought it may be useful for you, maby try some cellar wintering!!!
> ...........
> 5 rings better than three.
> .......................
> Hahaha, update:* they all overwintered and turned into money in the spring.*


So, as I understand, they overwintered *outside.*

And it also sounds like initially he was trying to overwinter on *three *framelets.
Then found that *five *framelets are better than three.
Well, I run my minis on *eight *framelets. 
Will see how this works out.

Too bad I don't have a cellar.
Garage less optimal.
Let's see what happens just outside.
If this works even at 50/50 success, next year I will have 50 coolers sitting out there.


----------



## William Bagwell

msl said:


> A few years when I was doing all the small cell builder development stuff Juhani put me in touch with a Fnish beekeeper


"Feeding of aphids for wintering. Each has 5 rings and bees hit with a mallet."
But sir, I do not want to hit my bees with a mallet!  Assuming a bot came up with that line.


----------



## Gray Goose

ursa_minor said:


> It is positively blasphemous to suggest no upper entrance in my neck of the woods and as such the consumption of honey is high. At least that is what I think is going on.


Why?
heat loss leads to more stores consumed. at least that is what I thought

flipping hive "May" work because air is above the bees VRS honey.
think witch would pull more heat off the top of the cluster.

GG


----------



## crofter

If you make liquid top feed available and insulated so that it stays warm, you can winter a very small cluster. I am familiar with one person locally who extracts virtually all honey and puts a two gallon pail feeder on top. Piles on a foot of assorted insulation. The insulation is key since it must be warm enough for the bees to have mobility and the syrup warm enough not to chill them.
Here is a link to a thread where Joerg (Biermann) has posts showing his rendition of it. Vauxhall Alberta.

Edit; removed link since it opens a whole nother thread!

I have not put on any top feed but have access to add it in Feb. With enough R Value on top bees do not appear to cluster and can access liquid top feed. Some folks maintain that allowing such temperatures will result in extra food consumption. That is not my conclusion. I had zero top feed last winter though hives were heavy enough that nothing additional was needed. 

Making liquid top feed available might be a benefit in having fewer frames filled with solidified capped faux honey which results when you feed to weight. I find such frames to be a nuisance as they wont extract and once spring nectar is available the bees seem reluctant to clean it up.


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> If you make liquid top feed available and insulated so that it stays warm, you can winter a very small cluster.


I will stick with dry feed.
It works well over the cold season - while keeping it warm is not necessary.


----------



## GregB

As I slowly work thru my honey harvest, it is fun to take pictures of the frames before I cut the honey out.
You can see how nicely these combs are configured.
I can keep looking at them for a long time and keep finding interesting details. 

The bee passages (I measured) are very uniformed in the heights - they very strongly approach *3/8" (10mm).*
This is a very strong suggestion at the natural bee space sizing.


----------



## userfriendlytoo

GregB said:


> In fact, not a lot of additional work outside of just regular splitting work.
> Unless you consider routine splitting work to be busy work - then yes, it is busy.
> 
> *Two *OA treatments done along side the routine maintenance.
> These also done during the preferred time (June to early July - the latest).
> 
> You split as this:
> 1)Fly-back split - completely brood-less and queen-right - treat anytime until capped brood - clean restart for the season.
> 2)Brood-right and queen-less resource hive - use for the propagation projects as needed (e.g. queen raising) - treat at the point when no more capped brood left - clean restart for the season.
> 
> These should work in combination with good enough VSH/TF bees.
> If the bees are not good enough, well then they will die most likely.


I like your method of splitting and treating the uncapped bees that result. I acquired some treatment free queens this year. I am not trying to be treatment free, but want to be efficient and maximize the results that I get when I do treat. I was thinking about moving all of the capped brood to another box and adding a queen but delay her release until day 4. That way all of the capped brood would emerge before the new queen's first larvae would get capped, then these bees would get an OAV treatment. The original hives would get treated at the same time as the capped brood was moved.


----------



## Gray Goose

userfriendlytoo said:


> I do treat. I was thinking about moving all of the capped brood to another box and adding a queen but delay her release until day 4. That way all of the capped brood would emerge before the new queen's first larvae would get capped, then these bees would get an OAV treatment.


not sure your bee math is spot on.

cells are capped day 8 and hatch day 21 (worker) and day 24 Drone.

GG


----------



## GregB

userfriendlytoo said:


> adding a queen but delay her release until day 4.


As GG alluded to - check your math to ensure you do have a window w/o capped brood so you can effectively apply acid.
But otherwise, it is a good idea IMO.


----------



## userfriendlytoo

Gray Goose said:


> not sure your bee math is spot on.
> 
> cells are capped day 8 and hatch day 21 (worker) and day 24 Drone.
> 
> GG


I see numbers as 3 days as egg 5.5 as larvae, then 12.5 as pupae. total 21. Can always look at the brood to decide when to treat, 12 days would be a guideline for when to see if everything emerged. If there were a lot of drone cells that would need to be handled differently


----------



## crofter

It would take up to _*16*_ days before all capped brood would be guaranteed to have emerged: Queen caged for 4 days, lays eggs upon release which will start to be capped 8 days later equal *12* days.

The 16 day figure would be the extreme for drone brood emergence and 3 days less for worker. The prescribed timing of 12 days with no open brood would expose the great majority of the mites to treatment but allow a few drones to slip through and is just short of what is needed to guarantee *zero *worker capped brood during treatment window. Probably adequate for good treatment efficacy but I believe GG has you on a technicality.


----------



## GregB

Walked to the office today and was thinking how the queen could be sold not individually in cages, but rather in small, 3-framelet coolers as mini-colonies.
What do you, people, think?
Good idea/bad idea/why/why not?
Would a customer pay extra and how much?

(I meant to return a bunch of small coolers into the recycling center as not too practical vs. the bigger coolers; but then got to think of this selling scheme).


----------



## GregB

userfriendlytoo said:


> If there were a lot of drone cells that would need to be handled differently


I would just destroy the drone brood if any involved (scrape them).
For such splitting the drone brood is not essential and, in fact, is a liability and extra nuisance.


----------



## GregB

> You split as this:
> 1)Fly-back split - completely brood-less and queen-right - treat anytime until capped brood - clean restart for the season.
> 2)Brood-right and queen-less resource hive - use for the propagation projects as needed (e.g. queen raising) - treat at the point when no more capped brood left - clean restart for the season.


Quoting myself.

Thinking back, this year I did all kinds of brood-less splits, not even proper fly-back splits.
Everything goes per the actual need and circumstances.

I did:

at least a couple of classic fly-back splits as described "by the book"
shook-away swarms - took the queen away into a nuc and shook a bunch of her own bees on top of her
combined shook swarms - took the queen (caged) into a nuc and shook a bunch of foreign bees on top of her (from one or more hives)
Of these I sold some and kept some for projects.
But every time I created clean starts either for myself or the customers.

So the clean (re)starts work - granted this was a terrible swarm chasing year for me (just one!) - I got more bees than I can handle (out of equipment).
Looking back, I had some excellent swarm chasing years - to only be squandered away as I did not practice the clean (re)starts back then.


----------



## William Bagwell

GregB said:


> Walked to the office today and was thinking how the queen could be sold not individually in cages, but rather in small, 3-framelet coolers as mini-colonies.
> What do you, people, think?
> Good idea/bad idea/why/why not?
> Would a customer pay extra and how much?


Overall good idea. Recall reading recently there is limit on the number of attendants and still it be allowed in regular mail as a queen. This ring a bell with anyone? Otherwise same restrictions as shipping packages.

Doubt it would increase shipping costs much, and might increase survivability rates.


----------



## GregB

William Bagwell said:


> Overall good idea. Recall reading recently there is limit on the number of attendants and still it be allowed in regular mail as a queen. This ring a bell with anyone? Otherwise same restrictions as shipping packages.
> 
> *Doubt it would increase shipping costs* much, and might increase survivability rates.


To be honest I did not think of *shipping*.
I was thinking more along the line of specifically "mini-colony for sale".

But now you said it - hmmm. 
Makes sense too.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> Walked to the office today and was thinking how the queen could be sold not individually in cages, but rather in small, 3-framelet coolers as mini-colonies.
> What do you, people, think?
> Good idea/bad idea/why/why not?
> Would a customer pay extra and how much?
> 
> (I meant to return a bunch of small coolers into the recycling center as not too practical vs. the bigger coolers; but then got to think of this selling scheme).
> 
> View attachment 72067
> 
> 
> View attachment 72068


IF
you cut the end out of the cooler, and used Lang frames, either deep or medium.
then yes, take them out place in a hive done.
could put bubble wrap in-between , and around frames frames to seal them, the part sticking out of the cooler.
plug the entrance set on the floor of the car take them home.

only value to the mini frames is not cadging the queen for the journey.

keep in mind few buyers are going to keep in mini framlets, I guess one could shake the bees and queen into the new hive. It may work for you to deliver and install the queen, take back re use.

GG


----------



## userfriendlytoo

crofter said:


> It would take up to _*16*_ days before all capped brood would be guaranteed to have emerged: Queen caged for 4 days, lays eggs upon release which will start to be capped 8 days later equal *12* days.
> 
> The 16 day figure would be the extreme for drone brood emergence and 3 days less for worker. The prescribed timing of 12 days with no open brood would expose the great majority of the mites to treatment but allow a few drones to slip through and is just short of what is needed to guarantee *zero *worker capped brood during treatment window. Probably adequate for good treatment efficacy but I believe GG has you on a technicality.


I use wooden frames with plastic foundation. My bees don't end up with a lot of drones on them. It would be easy on day 12 to inspect the frames and uncap the distinct drone capped brood that would still be there. Could also have some small patches of regular brood since it would be hard to find frames 100% capped. There could be spots where there was uncapped larvae when you moved the frames.


----------



## ursa_minor

I would buy them in a snap, LOL. 

I remember watching a video of queen rearing in some european country, cannot recall which, but they hinged two mini frames together that, when taken out of the mini nuc and opened up would be the size of a Lang and could be inserted directly into the hive, queen and all.


----------



## GregB

Another video about the upside-down beekeeper (Roman Silitsky)
This is just a talk - no practical video.

Some points of interest (some are repeated from above).

- Roman's Dad originally imported their Grey Caucasians 40 years ago - they treated at the time (used thermal chambers for example) - but the bees certainly adapted and formed a localized population

- Roman himself (as I mentioned earlier) jumped into the TF cold-turkey - 20 years ago, using the same GC lineage on hand

- at about 1:45 - Roman again talks about two distinct natural mite control mechanisms by the bees - 1) low mite counts maintained by the Grey Caucasian lineage thru the year and 2) high mite counts allowed by the Bashkortostan lineage where the mites just drop off when the winter temperatures drop (as if treated) without apparent damage to the bees.

- at about 7:50 - they announce the mite wash counts they did during the previous visit to Roman's apiary (October 2022):
-- a) the Bashkortostan black bees showed 12% mite infestation (I guess I previously misunderstood about these bees as discontinued - the lineage was rather just recently aquired)
-- b) the Grey Caucasians - 3%
-- c) the Carpathians - 4%
-- d) some other lineage - 4%
-- these mite counts are not fatal and not even concerning for the lineages (a) and (b) - they did not talk of lineages (c) and (d)

- at about 27:45 - Roman talks about how in 1980's in Bashkortostan feral bees and log hive kept bees crashed catastrophically (many beeks quit) but in about 10 years the population naturally rebounded and stabilized, and presence of a localized resistance/tolerance mechanism is now evident

- somewhere I forgot - Roman restates the critical importance of localized mating (to prevent the undesired outcrossing and loss of the lineage) - which he accomplishes by mating in a reasonably remote location

(893) Улей вверх ногами.Экспертный разбор результатов исследования вароаустойчивых пчёл Силицкого Р.М. - YouTube


----------



## GregB

Don't know about you, guys, but I am still working thru my apple crop and see no end to this project.
Made another batch of apple juice/apple butter - GregB style.
Froze some too.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregB said:


> Don't know about you, guys, but I am still working thru my apple crop and see no end to this project.
> Made another batch of apple juice/apple butter - GregB style.
> Froze some too.
> 
> View attachment 72101
> 
> 
> View attachment 72102





GregB said:


> Don't know about you, guys, but I am still working thru my apple crop and see no end to this project.
> Made another batch of apple juice/apple butter - GregB style.
> Froze some too.
> 
> View attachment 72101
> 
> 
> View attachment 72102


What is the Greg Style Apple butter recipe?

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> What is the Greg Style Apple butter recipe?
> GG


Run the apples thru the juicer - *twice.*

The second time thru you will not get much juice (just a little), but you will refine the apple pulp further.

Dump the pulp into a slow cooker (if too busy) and let it sit there for few hours (stir when you can).

OR (as shown) just cook it on the stove, on "low" for 1-2 hours (periodically stir to prevent sticking, of course).

Done.

The main point is that the apple pulp is already "dry" (after juice separation).
You do not need to boil it down forever and ever.


----------



## Gray Goose

ok thanks
I do not have a juicer

GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> ok thanks
> I do not have a juicer
> 
> GG


Then consider one.

Unlike the honey extractor (one function tool) - a basic juicer can do all bunch of useful functions, not just the juicing.


----------



## GregB

Today is *12/12/2022.*

The California/Georgia package vendors are *already *at it.



> ..............Get your orders in soon because they do sell out...............


----------



## Tigger19687

Gray Goose said:


> ok thanks
> I do not have a juicer
> 
> GG


You could use a food processor or blender, pour into cheese cloth and let drain... If you have those it will be cheaper then buying another machine to store.
I use the crock pot but leave some juice because I like the concentrated juice.


----------



## Gray Goose

Tigger19687 said:


> You could use a food processor or blender, pour into cheese cloth and let drain... If you have those it will be cheaper then buying another machine to store.
> I use the crock pot but leave some juice because I like the concentrated juice.


ok so you remove juice and cook?

GG


----------



## Tigger19687

Gray Goose said:


> ok so you remove juice and cook?
> 
> GG


I only remove 1/2 the juice.
I also add some spices, not sure if Greg does too


----------



## Gray Goose

Tigger19687 said:


> I only remove 1/2 the juice.
> I also add some spices, not sure if Greg does too


so thick applesauce then


----------



## ursa_minor

The apple butter we got as kids from Germany was made from the juice of the apple not the pulp. The juice was reduced until it was the thickness of molasses and looked like it. The stuff my MIL makes is like GregB does, with the pulp after juicing, it is good.


----------



## Tigger19687

Gray Goose said:


> so thick applesauce then


No it's definitely apple butter as it still boils down. I'm just lazy, I don't do the cheese cloth , just eyeball the juice. Then let the crockpot do the work, it does take longer.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> so thick applesauce then


A very thick, spreadable applesauce - at reduced cooking time (good!).

That is what the classic apple butter is - a very thick applesauce boiled to death (with most of the vitamins destroyed by then). I guess the proper way to make apple butter was one of the non-stop arguments between the old timers (from what I read). Same old problem - which way to skin that cat.... 

Some numbers:

I started with 12-13 quarts of cleaned, chopped up apple
I got little under 3 quarts of juice
I got little under 3 quarts of apple butter.
it is about 50% reduction in volume off the raw apple material.
As it stands now, I still got four 40-gallon containers of apples in the garage. 
Need to sort thru and consolidate down further. God...


----------



## GregB

Tigger19687 said:


> No it's definitely apple butter as it still boils down. I'm just lazy, I don't do the cheese cloth , just eyeball the juice. *Then let the crockpot do the work, it does take longer.*


Crockpot works too and needs less attention but takes longer.

I have done the crockpot method before as well (when have no time to stand near stove).


----------



## GregB

Tigger19687 said:


> I only remove 1/2 the juice.
> I also add some spices, not sure if Greg does too


I could but I don't.
Straight apple (a variety mix) from my crop is very good as is.


----------



## GregB

Continuing the discussion about the upside-down wintering.
Starts at about 4:00 (or watch the entire thing; use the Engish subs).
This guy makes sense to me.

A matter of fact, this entire idea of "starting the winter *under *the honey" is tossed into the air.

Back to the flat "fruit box" hive designs that inherently resulted in a bunch of wrong ideas and methods (and conventional 120LB wintering weights).

(902) Улей вверх ногами. Ответы на вопросы с Санинским Р.М. - YouTube


----------



## GregB

Too early to say anything yet as the winter holidays are not here yet.

But the back porch mini-nucs are doing fine and I don't expect them to look much different in a couple of weeks.
Which is a good sign for the overall status.


----------



## GregB

Winter is finally here.
We are going to have a proper, white Christmas, for a change.
Let the mini trial begin.


----------



## William Bagwell

GregB said:


> Winter is finally here.
> We are going to have a proper, white Christmas, for a change.


When I was a kid I thought Bing Crosby was some kind of hero. Today not so much, keep that stuff up there please!


----------



## farmer9989

you can hang them little frames in your big hive by putting pop sickle sticks screwed on top cross ways or even wire bent just right,electric straps bent just right a lot of ways just some thoughts.


----------



## AR1

William Bagwell said:


> When I was a kid I thought Bing Crosby was some kind of hero. Today not so much, keep that stuff up there please!


Snow caps on a beehive top
drifts on landing boards...

Actually only about an inch right now. Supposed to get chilly next week, down to zero F. Got my hives better protected than I usually bother with.


----------



## crofter

AR1 said:


> Snow caps on a beehive top
> drifts on landing boards...
> 
> Actually only about an inch right now. Supposed to get chilly next week, down to zero F. Got my hives better protected than I usually bother with.


Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow🎼!


----------



## William Bagwell

crofter said:


> Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow🎼!


Only if it is like this one in 2017, deep and no wind!


----------



## GregB

One of my better wind-protected yards has it good.
Lots of snow to spare.


----------



## GregB

farmer9989 said:


> you can hang them little frames in your big hive by putting pop sickle sticks screwed on top cross ways or even wire bent just right,electric straps bent just right a lot of ways just some thoughts.


They zip-tie perfectly to top bars - how I installed some queen cells last summer (a framelet zipped to a stick).


----------



## GregB

However, the main nuc yard is a wind-tunnel.
No snow to speak of and the freezing wind is hitting the back of the hives bad.

Took all my trash supplies there to make the wind breaks.
Windows blinds, carpeting, tar paper, fencing - you name it, I use it.


----------



## GregB

And the bonus for all of my hard work!
I found my favorite bread knife lost many months ago (or was it last year???)


----------



## AR1

GregB said:


> And the bonus for all of my hard work!
> I found my favorite bread knife lost many months ago (or was it last year???)
> 
> View attachment 72167
> 
> View attachment 72168


Now that I think about it, pretty sure there is an unused bread knife around here somewhere.


----------



## farmer9989

GregB said:


> They zip-tie perfectly to top bars - how I installed some queen cells last summer (a framelet zipped to a stick).


exactly the point I was making there is a lot of ways to install into a bigger hive ,one frame or all of them


----------



## A Novice

GregB said:


> Continuing the discussion about the upside-down wintering.
> Starts at about 4:00 (or watch the entire thing; use the Engish subs).
> This guy makes sense to me.
> 
> A matter of fact, this entire idea of "starting the winter *under *the honey" is tossed into the air.
> 
> Back to the flat "fruit box" hive designs that inherently resulted in a bunch of wrong ideas and methods (and conventional 120LB wintering weights).
> 
> (902) Улей вверх ногами. Ответы на вопросы с Санинским Р.М. - YouTube


When the bees are at the top of the hive, the warm air does not extend vertically. So the chimney effect, and corresponding convection heat loss, is substantially eliminated.

Even in a sealed top hive if the bees are at the bottom the heat goes up from the colony to the top, then down the sides. When the bees are at the top, the heat is at the top and that doesn't happen.

So less air movement means less convection means less heat transfer out of the hive means less food consumed.

if you want to work it out, I have a 1950 edition of Mark's Handbook. It explains how to design smokestacks/chimneys, retaining walls, Steam turbines, and fission reactors. Lots of cool stuff .Let me know and I'll post the relevant pages. Too much math for me...


----------



## jtgoral

A Novice said:


> ...
> 
> Even in a sealed top hive if the bees are at the bottom the heat goes up from the colony to the top, then down the sides. When the bees are at the top, the heat is at the top and that doesn't happen.
> 
> ...


It still does happen, the warm air goes to the sides and then cools down at the sides , gets heavier and falls down along the walls.
As long as the top is more insulated then the walls.


----------



## A Novice

jtgoral said:


> It still does happen, the warm air goes to the sides and then cools down at the sides , gets heavier and falls down along the walls.
> As long as the top is more insulated then the walls.


Not exactly.
Since you don't have a column of air moving up, you don't have a corresponding column of air moving down.

When the bees are at the top, the air does not move up appreciably above the bees, becausre they are at the top.. Air moves to the sides, and down to below the bees. *Still near the top*.. Since nothing is warming the air below the bees, it is all at about the same temperature. As soon as the "cooled" air is below the level of the bees, there is no force moving it downward. Because the heights involved are less, the bouyancy forces (net) are less, and the air velocities are lower. Less of the sides being involved in convection and lower air velocities both work to reduce heat transfer through the walls of the hive. in addition, to the extent there is air leakage from the top the pressure in the hive caused by the chimney effect is less, and flows out of the hive are also reduced.

While there are modest convection currents even in an unoccupied hive, these are considerably weaker I suspect that the air currents resulting from colony heat.

(When an unoccupied hive is cooler than ambient, or the sun is warming the sides of the hive, the air is warmer at the sides and moves up, moving down in the interior of the hive, or back of the hive, depending. When the outside temperature drops (at night, for example) and the unoccupied hive and its contents are warmer than the outside air, cooling of the hive walls from the outside causes air to move down along the hive walls, and up in the middle of the hive. However thaee air currents are relatively slow moving, as I observed earlier.)

To get more specific, it will be necessary to make actual numerical calculations. Heavy lifting for an armchair scientist...


----------



## crofter

Yes the heat source being higher will reduce the convective force. Dont envision an empty cube - the volume of the bees and the frames play havoc with that vision. It is written somewhere or a figment of my imagination that bees can direct the flow from the cluster and discharge downwards. I have not seen that commonly considered; dont know how relevant it is either. If it is true the bees could use it to advance downward into stores below them in the rather novel suggestion of having the hive inverted and them being on top of the stores.
Got no dog in this fight.


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> It is written somewhere or a figment of my imagination that bees can direct the flow from the cluster and discharge downwards.


I just noticed this effect and easily can produce a picture.
There is a mini-nuc on my backporch - it is in a foam cooler with a *vent cut thru the bottom.

All the snow under the nuc has melted/evapoated.*

I need to set this up properly so the before/after is more obvious.


----------



## William Bagwell

A Novice said:


> While there are modest convection currents even in an unoccupied hive, these are considerably weaker I suspect that the air currents resulting from colony heat.


I would think the height of the hive would make a (slight) difference. Real world example, you do not typically see revolving doors in short buildings. Expensive, prone to wear and need maintenance, slows egress in an emergency. Tall buildings need them (or a substitute) to prevent really strong convection currents.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> Last Friday (Nov 25th) got into my largest "coffin" in the hopes to finally reduce them to the winter setup.
> *These idiots are still brooding - including even open brood.*
> That idiot queen must go (in spring).
> If they make it.


Remember these idiots.
They are dead.
Good riddance.

Looked inside, wanting to install a temp sensor.
It is -17C, but no signs of moisture - *bad sign.*

Well, dead bees are scattered everywhere - no cluster.
The idiots met their doom, as predicted. 

These kinds of bees I don't want and will not spend my time running around trying to save them.

No regrets on my part, and good thing they died off early leaving me a full hive of honey.

-1.


----------



## jtgoral

A Novice said:


> Not exactly.
> Since you don't have a column of air moving up, you don't have a corresponding column of air moving down.
> 
> When the bees are at the top, the air does not move up appreciably above the bees, becausre they are at the top.. Air moves to the sides, and down to below the bees. *Still near the top*.. Since nothing is warming the air below the bees, it is all at about the same temperature. As soon as the "cooled" air is below the level of the bees, there is no force moving it downward. Because the heights involved are less, the bouyancy forces (net) are less, and the air velocities are lower. Less of the sides being involved in convection and lower air velocities both work to reduce heat transfer through the walls of the hive. in addition, to the extent there is air leakage from the top the pressure in the hive caused by the chimney effect is less, and flows out of the hive are also reduced.
> 
> While there are modest convection currents even in an unoccupied hive, these are considerably weaker I suspect that the air currents resulting from colony heat.
> 
> (When an unoccupied hive is cooler than ambient, or the sun is warming the sides of the hive, the air is warmer at the sides and moves up, moving down in the interior of the hive, or back of the hive, depending. When the outside temperature drops (at night, for example) and the unoccupied hive and its contents are warmer than the outside air, cooling of the hive walls from the outside causes air to move down along the hive walls, and up in the middle of the hive. However thaee air currents are relatively slow moving, as I observed earlier.)
> 
> To get more specific, it will be necessary to make actual numerical calculations. Heavy lifting for an armchair scientist...


In my area the coldest air is at the entrance in winter. So the warm air will fall along the walls to the entrance or opened screened bottom board as it cools down. I leave my SBB open the whole winter.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> Remember these idiots.
> They are dead.
> Good riddance.


And btw, this is just around the Christmas time.
So yes, the winter holiday time is a good time to quickly separate apart good bees from poor bees.
The poor bees are already dead or not looking too good by about now.


----------



## GregB

This is going to be some good Christmas test time.
Pretty much if the minis freeze - they may just freeze the very next few days.
But if Nature is willing to spare some snow, I will be shoveling tomorrow night some of that onto my hives.


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## A Novice

William Bagwell said:


> I would think the height of the hive would make a (slight) difference. Real world example, you do not typically see revolving doors in short buildings. Expensive, prone to wear and need maintenance, slows egress in an emergency. Tall buildings need them (or a substitute) to prevent really strong convection currents.


You are right if the heat source is at the bottom.
Whenthe heat source is at the top it tends to stay cold below it, unless there is forced air.


crofter said:


> Yes the heat source being higher will reduce the convective force. Dont envision an empty cube - the volume of the bees and the frames play havoc with that vision. It is written somewhere or a figment of my imagination that bees can direct the flow from the cluster and discharge downwards. I have not seen that commonly considered; dont know how relevant it is either. If it is true the bees could use it to advance downward into stores below them in the rather novel suggestion of having the hive inverted and them being on top of the stores.
> Got no dog in this fight.


True enough.
Fanning bees move air pretty effectively.


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## GregB

A Novice said:


> *Fanning bees* move air pretty effectively.


Not in winter.
Fanning is out of the question.
And we are talking about the winter here - all along.

Back to the passive convection currents.


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## GregB

Man, this is like Mother Russia out there. 
It, basically, how it is there if I can remember.
It is slowly getting warmer over the weekend.











Last night I put on three layers and a head lamp and went out there to shovel some snow onto my mini-nucs.
They were all alive - per the iced-up entrances.
I feel better now, knowing I cut down at least some heat losses.

Next weekend we should be above freezing  - perfect timing to go around and estimate the potential losses.
This snap is a perfect test to weed out any weaklings and misfits (like the recent one) and to see if I totally lost my mind - trying to winter handful-sized clusters.


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## AR1

Coldest I saw here in Rockford Il was -10 F which is -23 C. So yeah, a good test of fitness for the bees. 
I am more concerned about whipsawing temps than purely cold temps. So far this year we have not seen that.


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## A Novice

Good indoor weather.

Whole fam has the flu.

Merry Christmas.

Will check the bees in a week, supposed to be in the mid 40's (7C or so)


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## A Novice

You're getting old Greg.

Not really cold out.

When I was a boy we had entire weeks where the temperature didn't go above -30F.

Russia was colder than that.

I'm getting old too. 

Can't take the cold like I did when I was a boy.

Whenever the temp was above zero, we played hockey during school recess. (well, maybe -10 if it wasn't too windy).

But this feels cold to me.


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## Litsinger

It was around 0 here most of the day yesterday and the kids had a big time ice skating. Me? I could not wait to get back inside 🥶.


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## GregB

A Novice said:


> You're getting old Greg.


I still feel young and even stupid.
But the face looks .... eh, old. 
And then the shoulder (newly declared as arthritic) does prefer the warmth.
The knees too prefer two-three layers about now.


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## GregB

GregB said:


> ...............
> One negative would be that I am aware of *four colonies* that sit on 3-5 frames of brood still - NOT good.
> *Two of these are full-size.*
> The other two are mini-nucs.
> I will let it all play out by nature but sitting on brood in early winter is a bad place to be.
> Nothing else I can do for them.
> 
> If these queens cannot read our local season and will subsequently croak - then so be it.
> If they somehow make it - they already got (-)'s in my notebook - to be discontinued for poor local fitness.
> Unsure they make it due to winter bee wear and likely poor mite situation (because of the brood).


-2.

Sure enough.
One of the full-size idiots croaked as I reported earlier.

Today having the Monday off - drove by another yard bright and early - the second one from those late-brooding idiot bees is also dead.
So - very late brooding into late fall/early winter is a very bad sign, just as predicted.

Well, per the local not very well informed (even if "experienced") beeks, you hear stuff like this:


> I myself appreciate the late-brooding queens. Those last few larva become the youngest bees in the hive, the ones most able to live until spring, in my opinion. No research has actually been done on this subject. We each have an opinion, based only on our own feelings.


This is just one of the responses when I was lamenting of some of my bees brooding in later November and into December.
What are these people thinking?
I think they are recycling the stuff the package vendors implanted into their brains - "late-brooding queens are good". 

Some pics, of course.

the frost in the hive indicates that the bees were still alive until recently;
plenty of feed;
plenty of formerly live bees;
no cluster to speak of - most likely the bees were still active when the arctic snap hit them
still remnants of brood (the last brood most likely ran into December)
crappy bees - exactly the kind that require non-ending TTT to have any chance of survival (best is to just euthanize them)


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## GregB

Just more autopsy pics:


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## AR1

Ha! I see the murder weapon right there! Some people will do anything to preserve their ideas. But you forgot to hide...the knife.


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## GregB

AR1 said:


> Ha! I see the murder weapon right there! Some people will do anything to preserve their ideas. But you forgot to hide...the knife.


Sure!
I stabbed every single one of those 5000 dead bodies. LOL
I am a knife man.
Got to have a knife in my pocket.

PS: that knife is for scale - it about 8"-9" long.


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## GregB

@crofter, for you.
I decided to run the temp monitoring in my largest mini-nuc - just outside the door on my porch.
Might as well.

It may be a small cluster, but for the large amount of insulation and the small cavity size - should work just fine.
The cluster size is just about the size of that sugar patty on the framelets.
Good enough experiment - you can see the insulation here; the monitor placement; and the temp reading now.

And btw, regardless of the context - they still absolutely must hold the cluster temperature at the viable level (else they will die). So, whatever is the energy output they create, the cluster core must hold the steady temp 24-25C and the cluster crust must be 6-7C steady.


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## Gray Goose

only seen a few brood cells capped, looks like it could also have been Varroa.
is there fras in the cells just below the last stand site?

comb looks to be reusable.

Just the one thin blanket? I use 3-5 inches.

well you had your suspicion they were not going to make it.

GG


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## crofter

If they typically survive in that setup it will be an efficient way to overwinter a queen and make a spring start.

I dont have any experience with anything that small. By my standards this is not terrific insulation. Though you have plenty of inches of foam on top the shoulder radius of the top is not augmented by it.

Hopefully the temperature under the plastic film, which is actually the cluster environment, will be a bit higher than the sensor indication.[/QUOTE]


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## GregB

GregB said:


> @crofter, for you.
> I decided to run the temp monitoring in my largest mini-nuc - just outside the door on my porch.
> Might as well.
> .............


This morning.
+2C

So, as I stated, from prior experience even the large units rarely run it higher than +10C - when measured above the soft cover about cluster.
This is, actually, the norm with me and how I like it.
If this is running consistently *above *+10C - this means the bees are too active and less efficient - not too good.

Any spikes usually mean trouble - often the colonies spike just before they perish.

Naturally, in March I expect this reading higher - due to the brooding.


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> only seen a few brood cells capped, looks like it could also have been Varroa.
> is there fras in the cells just below the last stand site?
> 
> comb looks to be reusable.
> 
> Just the one thin blanket? I use 3-5 inches.
> 
> well you had your suspicion they were not going to make it.
> 
> GG


I am sure they were also Varro infested - I don't even bother counting the mites anymore.

I just know they have the issue due to their very nature - this is a variety of highly susceptible bees - most likely produced via out-mating with the almond drones.

The only way (acceptable for me) to bring the Varroa down in these non-stop brooders - non-stop OAV for about 4-6 weeks every 5 days. Which I will not do anyway - too much time/hassle/expense - to just save some substandard bees.

Combs are always fine with me; I may reuse them for some years until they end up in C&S harvest.

Yes - one blanket is sufficient.
I always start them cool - so to cool the clusters and have them compacted AND trying to stop the brooding too (not a guarantee though).

Pretty much if I still see the brood around the Thanksgiving - I am ready to write these bees off.
Not going to fuss about these unfit losers. 

Suitably localized bees around here should shut down by November.
This is my non-ending rant about the non-localized bee issue - decent bees even much further south stop brooding by November.


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## GregB

One solid trashy bee yard.
Nothing but trash hives - lots of duct tape too.
The tallest hive is a Lang restored into a double-wall hive - testing to be sure bees don't show AFB (which I highly doubt).
But the bees are good.
Since I only make it here once in 4-6 weeks (about 15 miles out) - added emergency patties on the top.

PS: the shrew-surviving mother to the left; her two daughters to the right.


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## crofter

Hey Greg, some people manage those "trash bees" and smile!

The boomers are not to my liking either but with very few, close bees in the area they dont quickly dilute my bees.


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## GregB

crofter said:


> Hey Greg, some people manage those "trash bees" and smile!
> 
> The boomers are not to my liking either but with very few, close bees in the area they dont quickly dilute my bees.


I am beginning to see how I indeed only treat my bees 1-2 times per year (in bad conditions!!!) and don't lose them.

This takes proper bees and this is what I may be able to demonstrate (at least to the locals - maybe? gosh). 
You don't just buy random, almond bees and expect some magic. 
But this is exactly what the people here do - at least around me.

If this truly works, why would you want to dance around your bees about non-stop? 
ESPECIALLY if no one dilutes your bees (like they do mine - badly)? 

Genetics matter.
But the mind set also matters.


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## GregB

crofter said:


> If they typically survive in that setup it will be an efficient way to overwinter a queen and make a spring start.
> 
> I dont have any experience with anything that small. By my standards this is not terrific insulation.


I have not a clue how this turns out - first time ever for me.
But they certainly did well over the last week - very promising.

I don't know how bad/good this is - but just tossing an extra slab of foam on the top will be my "standard" insulation with these foam coolers. Otherwise, we are again getting into too much hassle and that is losing the whole point of the foam hive - theoretically insulated just as-is.


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## GregB

Few snapshots give pretty good idea of how the bee colony resists the negative temp.
The outside temp pushes at them - and the bees push back.


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## GregB

Slow week at work (especially with the WFH setup).
Slow day; meanwhile I have more unchecked hives to see.

Might as well run outside and check more backyard hives and add hard feed.
It is only -8C. Perfect.









Got to check my double-6F coffin.


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## GregB

One unit with young Q looks well on 5Fs. 
This is a well-behaved young Q and knows her ABCs.
Good to add a pancake. 
Old blanket goes back on.


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## GregB

A veteran 2nd year Q looks well too on 6Fs.
If maybe a smaller unit, but they have been a good resource colony to steal the bees from.
Might as well also add a pancake for insurance.
And toss the blanket back on.


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## GregB

And there you have it - some bees do know their ABCs about the winter.
Reduced Treatment works for these good bees.
Checking in the cold works too.
Trashy, wrong beekeeping.
This may be just a way to do it.


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## GregB

It is becoming warmer and warmer outside.
But this does not convert into the monitored colony running warmer and warmer, for now.


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## jtgoral

GregB said:


> It is becoming warmer and warmer outside.
> But this does not convert into the monitored colony running warmer and warmer, for now.
> 
> View attachment 72308


Temperature difference gets smaller, heat loses are smaller because of that, the bees eat less to maintain the same temperature inside. Nothing wrong with that


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## GregB

jtgoral said:


> Temperature difference gets smaller, heat loses are smaller because of that, the bees eat less to maintain the same temperature inside. Nothing wrong with that


Nothing wrong.
I don't want them to be running hot.
Like what I see.


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## GregB

The nuc I am monitoring is actually now running warm.
As it is warm outside.
But also, I disturbed them for a funny reason - more later.


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## GregB

GregB said:


> The nuc I am monitoring is actually now running warm.
> As it is warm outside.
> *But also, I disturbed them for a funny reason - more later.*


The funny reason was - over the long weekend I found one of my minis froze to death during the cold snap
This one - wintering in a bigger hive.


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## GregB

Pretty much it was a dead cluster.
I guess is shows to me to NOT be wintering them in big hives, no matter the amount of insulation - they still lose too much heat.

I picked up all the framelets (three) with the dead bees, dropped them into a foam cooler, and took into the house.
Why?
Because I know that freshly frozen bees can still recover.
Nothing to lose, anyhow - trying to defrost the frozen bees.

Sure enough - by late last night I had a pile of "dead" bees that started moving.
Good!
BUT - in that pile I found their queen that was surely dead.
Not good.

Well, I figured today I will dump this "un-dead" pile into my temp-monitored nuc and let those still alive join.
Weather was about perfect and even kind of flyable.

Well, in the process of dumping I found the "dead" queen running about.
Shoot!
No go!
The "monitored" queen is much more valuable to me than this half-dead zombie.

I had to quickly un-dump the "dead" bees - queen-right bees, as it turned out.
Took them back inside and will let them recover for another 1-2 days.
Then we'll see.
Maybe I will put them into garage.
OR if looking well - just outside - but now in the *foam nuc.*

That was funny.


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## jtgoral

GregB said:


> Pretty much it was a dead cluster.
> I guess is shows to me to NOT be wintering them in big hives, no matter the amount of insulation - they still lose too much heat.
> 
> I picked up all the framelets (three) with the dead bees, dropped them into a foam cooler, and took into the house.
> Why?
> Because I know that freshly frozen bees can still recover.
> Nothing to lose, anyhow - trying to defrost the frozen bees.
> 
> Sure enough - by late last night I had a pile of "dead" bees that started moving.
> Good!
> BUT - in that pile I found their queen that was surely dead.
> Not good.
> 
> Well, I figured today I will dump this "un-dead" pile into my temp-monitored nuc and let those still alive join.
> Weather was about perfect and even kind of flyable.
> 
> Well, in the process of dumping I found the "dead" queen running about.
> Shoot!
> No go!
> The "monitored" queen is much more valuable to me than this half-dead zombie.
> 
> I had to quickly un-dump the "dead" bees - queen-right bees, as it turned out.
> Took them back inside and will let them recover for another 1-2 days.
> Then we'll see.
> Maybe I will put them into garage.
> OR if looking well - just outside - but now in the *foam nuc.*
> 
> That was funny.
> 
> View attachment 72329
> 
> 
> View attachment 72330


IMO it was warm for a while in the empty volume above the frames and cold where the frames with bees were. Probably tight top insulation right above the frames, 1/4"-3/8" above the frames, would fix the problem. Like snag fitted against the walls 2" XPS....


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## GregB

jtgoral said:


> IMO it was warm for a while in the empty volume above the frames and cold where the frames with bees were. Probably tight top insulation right above the frames, 1/4"-3/8" above the frames, would fix the problem. Like snag fitted against the walls 2" XPS....


I had 3" XPS (R15?) above.
I don't economize on the free XPS. 
Sort of like this (this pictured mini is fine):











The real issue I think was that they did lose too much heat to the surrounding volume - I did not have them tight (unlike in a foam cooler).


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## crofter

Dont put too much faith in that queen that returned from grave! The low temperature excursion may well have compromised the viability of her stored sperm. This has been discussed as possible relevance to compromised queens that have experienced temperature excursions in shipping.

From the temperatures you have recorded in those small colonies I feel that they were in desperate battle to maintain temperature. I certainly see much higher values that fall close to what Yukon Beekeeper Adrienne Tardiff is recording. Granted mine are in full sized colonies.

I can lose half of 10 lbs of bees no problem but some of your minis must be not much more than a cup of bees. Critical mass issues perhaps but certainly the smaller the sphere the greater the ratio of surface area to volume.


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## GregB

crofter said:


> *Dont put too much faith in that queen that returned from grave! *The low temperature excursion may well have compromised the viability of her stored sperm. This has been discussed as possible relevance to compromised queens that have experienced temperature excursions in shipping.
> 
> From the temperatures you have recorded in those small colonies I feel that they were in desperate battle to maintain temperature. I certainly see much higher values that fall close to what Yukon Beekeeper Adrienne Tardiff is recording. Granted mine are in full sized colonies.
> 
> I can lose half of 10 lbs of bees no problem but some of your minis must be not much more than a cup of bees. Critical mass issues perhaps but certainly the smaller the sphere the greater the ratio of surface area to volume.


I don't bank on that queen much.

She is one of the *four *extremely late brooders I reported about in November and to be discontinued anyway.
(2 larger hives are now dead; 1 mini is still alive, but I am not a fan; and then this zombie-queen).
I still wonder if this was a part of this incident too - they basically consumed all the honey within easy reach.

But let the experiment continue - what is there to lose?
These minis cost me nothing but my time (well spent, anyway).

Let me stress again - the common understanding on the mini-colonies is this temporary, short-lived "cup of bees".
It is *wrong *understanding (originating from the commercialized queen mating management).

Sam C. routinely winters his mini colonies in the little "double-deeps".
Well, I try to winter my minis in the little horizontal foam coolers - not that much different (maybe even better).

These are NOT temporary "a cup of bees" colonies.
These are full-blown colonies that amount to about 4 Land medium frames in comb space and are fully viable year-around - BUT they need to be properly configured (i. e. NOT be maintained in sub-optimal Lang equipment where they are *stretched thin!!!!*).

We've been talking of geometry of the energy-efficient volume for how long now?
*The dense cubic volume* is the most energy-efficient envelope (if using conventional materials) - this is what needed to handle mini-colonies to improve their survivability.

So far - so good.


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## GregB

-3.

Well, shoot, one more down.
I was suspicous of this queen due to the late brooding too.
Here I even removed their brood frames (a couple?) in mid-November hoping that would stop them.
But they continued on the same funny business.
Same death signature.
No cluster, bees are scattered across the hive.
Brood in December.


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## GregB

On the brighter side - every single mini-colony checked today still alive and perky.
Other regulars look normal.
The only loss on my yard #2 is the misfit above.

5 mini-colonies.
3 regulars.

From here and forward on I am optimistic.

Darn little things.


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## GregB

GregB said:


> The funny reason was - over the long weekend *I found one of my minis froze to death during the cold snap*
> This one - wintering in a bigger hive.
> ............................


-4.
So far I got 4/28 ~ 14% mortality.

The queen from the frozen mini died anyway.
As did most of the bees after thawing out.
I dumped the handful of the remaining live bees into another questionable, late-brooding mini for a good company and washed my hands.

Today I completed more surveying.
Ten (10) of the mini-colonies are alive and well (this is out of the initial eleven (11)).
This is pretty darn good.
Pretty much I can state definitely - they can survive the brutal cold just fine granted solid insulation is used.
Both of the configurations work well so far:

super-insulated wooden 40L hives
foam coolers with extra top XPS
Should complete the survey tomorrow and see the final XMas numbers.
Looks pretty darn good thou as I only have three unchecked hives left.
The hives in good shape at this point are very likely to make it all way thru (granted they have stores/I provision food).


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## GregB

GregB said:


> -4.
> So far I got 4/28 ~ 14% mortality.
> ...............


-4.
24 units left.

This is where it is going to stay until about a month from today.
Which is great because, clearly, the RT is working.

Checked every hive.
Gave every one emergency pancake should they need it.

Of the 14 remaining regulars:

up to 8 are about perfect.
the remaining units are less than perfect but still OK and I see no immediate concerns
a couple units are too active to my liking

Of the 10 remaining minis:
- there are alive and nothing more I can add for now.

The very late brooding was a strong predictor of the poor wintering so far - this is old conventional knowledge and I see that to be true (now that the mite-factor should be significantly reduced).

Pretty much if they are still brooding by Thanksgiving at my place - this is a very bad sign.
If this holds true, I should lose one more colony - the other late brooding mini.


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## GregB

GregB said:


> - at about 1:45 - Roman again talks about two distinct natural mite control mechanisms by the bees - 1) low mite counts maintained by the Grey Caucasian lineage thru the year and 2) high mite counts allowed by the Bashkortostan lineage where the mites just drop off when the winter temperatures drop (as if treated) without apparent damage to the bees.


I rewatched and watched more of this material.

I may have stated this already somewhere - don't remember.
But this is a good example how the overly depending on the mite counts is rather incorrect/one-sided approach (however "scientific" the approach may be declared).

Pretty much they say - the mite resistance/tolerance is directly correlated with low mite counts.
Low count is good.
High count is bad.
End of story.

However, this testimony supports my thinking that the "black box" type approaches are more complete/correct.
Some bees will indeed survive the temporary high mite counts and absorb the viral load without much damage (currently observed and reported case of Bashkortostan black bees).

Artificial elimination of the bees that allow the high counts - actually may eliminate the alternative, natural way to handle the same mite problem.

Certainly, these observations are applicable to well localized (possibly feral) bee populations.
In the context of common, migratory, Italian-ish bees in the US - high count most certainly means dead bees.
Not much argument there.


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## Litsinger

GregB said:


> Some bees will indeed survive the temporary high mite counts and absorb the viral load without much damage (currently observed and reported case of Bashkortostan black bees).


While I'd suggest that the jury is still out concerning whether tolerance is a viable mite strategy in isolation based on all the research I've read, one thing does seem plain to me- the AMM's are generally very good in the grooming aspect.

If a colony has a fair bit of tolerance and is able to bring the mite load down via grooming during the broodless period, it could IMHO represent a viable survival strategy.


----------



## GregB

GregB said:


> -3.
> 
> Well, shoot, one more down.
> I was suspicous of this queen due to the late brooding too.


Might as well post the autopsy.
This nearly identical with the three regular sized colonies that decided they wanted to brood into December.
Smallish remnants of the cluster that still huddle on/near the brood remnants.

The rest of the bees are evenly scattered across the hive - NOT piled under the cluster.
It looks is if the bees just led the normal life (as in summer) - then got cold wherever they got caught and fell off.
Notice how the dead are covering the bottom - an even layer wall to wall (not a concentrated pile).

Surely, they also kept producing the mites to the very end - very counterproductive if I attempted to treat them non-stop.
Not the bees to keep around here.

BTW - the "meat bees" are still alive and looking fine and healthy - if not irritable and jumpy at me (they have to maintained on the patties from now on) - usually the irritable bees mean they are panicky about the low honey reserves.
Just for being alive and apparently healthy - they deserve a second chance - certainly better than what is presented here.

Back to the dead - was setup on 7 frames and well stocked back in November.
Well, they did burn some honey to keep raising brood into the winter.

The frames are posted left to right - all seven of them.
#1 is the most left one.












#1


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## GregB

#2


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## GregB

#3


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## GregB

#4


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## GregB

#5


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## GregB

#6


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## GregB

#7


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## GregB

Dead bees on the bottom - even layer - shows how they never really clustered










Dead bees around the edges - never clustered










This amount should have made a healthy cluster on about 4-5 frames.
Most of my remaining regulars have 4-5 seams of bees.
I know of one that has 6 seams.
A couple have 3 seams (still fine as long as they are healthy).


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## GregB

This case above is representative of many cases I had in the past.
Now that I pretty effectively and minimally treat and have very good survival so far - there are still these misfits. 
They brought good honey crop, but otherwise are not sustainable or desirable to me.


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## GregB

Few temp readings over the week.
Monitored mini-colony is doing fine.


----------

