# Products like Mann Lake Ultra bee.



## Goldprospector

Has anyone had first hand experience with this type of product as to whether or not it could or would stimulate brood rearing at this time of year? Say this product and combination of sugar ayrup @ 1:1 ratio.


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## VolunteerK9

Personally, I wouldnt use it this time of year due to SHB. I have fed is successfully in January/February, however when anything else starts blooming its pretty much ignored.


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## muskratcreekhoney

I have used it during dearth conditions up here, Michigan. They eat it way faster than they do during the spring, but obviously the hive populations are bigger this time of year. I also don't have SHB to contend with. I should be feeding right now, but I don't want to remove all my supers. Also, the issue of having to pay for it. It would be interesting to see a side by side comparison of goldenrod honey yield with and without feeding.


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## jmgi

muskratcreekhoney, I was wondering if they would actually use it, or chew it up and drag it out of the hive, but it sounds like they do use it from your experience. I was thinking of trying it, I have about 40 lbs. of it in a bag leftover from the spring feeding, but the goldenrod is about to start anyway and they'll be bringing in lots of pollen from that, so they would probably ignore it anyway.


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## camero7

My nucs are going through it like gangbusters right now. they are definitely eating it, not carrying it out. I'm also feeding them fondant. they are drawing wax and the queens are laying well [these are new queens].


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## muskratcreekhoney

If we would have had more of a dry summer I would have considered it this year, but I'm unwilling to strip off supers with the chance of farmers letting the mint and alfalfa bloom. The Ultrabee says not to use with supers on. I would guess that is the same for all pollen substitutes?


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## jmgi

camero7, just curious if you are in a dearth right now in your area?


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## RayMarler

I use BeePro from Mannlake and make up my patties, and put on syrup at 2 parts water to 1 part sugar. I get great brood rearing and wax production comb building. I'm doing it right now and it's working great. Brood is increasing greatly and wax is being drawn very well.


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## jmgi

RayMarler said:


> I use BeePro from Mannlake and make up my patties, and put on syrup at 2 parts water to 1 part sugar. I get great brood rearing and wax production comb building. I'm doing it right now and it's working great. Brood is increasing greatly and wax is being drawn very well.


Wax is being drawn in brood chamber or supers?


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## camero7

No, there is a small flow but these are new nucs and I want them to build up for the winter.


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## RayMarler

These are 2 story 5 frame medium nucs, so it's all brood chamber pretty much. And, it's very slow, if any, nectar flows here at the moment.


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## Lauri

I've used it with great success. 




















For my recipe and instructions, see my facebook page for AG. Just scroll down to posts from a few days ago. 

I use it mostly on my nucs I am feeding so they continue to grow, but during my dearth, I give the large hives a giant glob too. It doesn't stimulate rapid growth like syrup does, but the bees are healthy and strong and I see a real increase of royal jelly in the larval cells. Especially noticeable when you go to graft. Some newly hatched eggs will have the tiniest dab of jelly. A well fed hive will have a much more generous drop for the same age hatchling.

They like them soft. It's are real fine line between too runny and too thick. I mix it with a half inch drill, paint paddle and five gallon bucket. I get the food grade non wax paper in 6x6 sheets at my local wholesale restaurant supply.

I use to mix the brewers yeast and Bee pro in equal parts, but Mann lake changed Brewers yeast supplier and the product is now poor quality. But if you don't add _some_ brewers yeast the patties will get hard as a rock.
Keith on beesource sells Nutra bee. I have thought about trying that formula, but really have no reason to switch. Maybe he can fill us in on his product and it's comparison to Bee Pro.

I don't have small hive beetle here in Washington. I don't buy bees anymore so I won't be bringing them in ether.


https://www.facebook.com/pages/Miller-Compound-HoneyBees-and-Agriculture/256954971040510


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## Goldprospector

I only had one hive to eat it like yours are...my other hives did not really even touch it...including nucs that did not have a lot of stores/


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## shinbone

Lauri - looks like the bees really like your recipe. I searched through your Facebook page and couldn't find it. Can post a direct link or simply post the recipe here?

TIA.


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## Lauri

Lauri's protien patty recipe:
25# cane sugar
2 quarts cold water
2 quarts apple cider vinegar
1-2 cups olive oil- depending on your desired fat content
a sprinkle of electrolytes, about 1 tsp.
about 1 T Citric acid
splash of Mann Lake Pro health or other essential oil of choice
Mix these ingredients in a five gallon bucket, mix well with a drill and paint mixer paddle.
Add:
15 cups brewers yeast..mix well
add a few cups at a time:
...aprox 15 cups Mann Lake BEE PRO 
(Dry ingredient measurements are approximate, I just dump it in a bit at a time with a big scoop)

Mix should be thick like peanut butter cookie dough. If it is not thick enough, just add more dry ingredients. Too thick and it will dry out in the hive. Too thin and it will drip through the frames
Let it stand an hour or so to thicken. I scoop it right onto the top bars in the hives with a big- one cup ice cream scoop. 2 scoops for big hives, 1 scoop for nucs, 1/2 scoop for mini nucs, but only after the newly mated queen starts laying. They won't take it up unless there is brood to feed.





































If a person treats their hives with any type of antibiotic, I would defiantly add probiotics to the patties. I do not treat myself.

I think the acidity and micro nutrients of the cider vinegar help balance the feeds PH and make it more palitable toward the bees digestive system. I have 133 hives and do not have a single one that doesn't eat the patties just like the photo shows. They love it.

(For my fall patties I have also added a 'glug' of olive oil for a higher fat content. Don't hold me to a measurement..probably about a cup)

I've used this recipe for three years. Overwintered 55 hives in 2012-2013 and am now at 133 with no bee purchases, only increases from my own stock. And they are healthy and thriving. My biggest problem is I keep having to buy more cases of frames and foundation to keep up.

Now some people are against feeding. And with my larger established hives, I don't have to. They are wonderfully self sufficient. But my queen cell starter an dfinisher hives, nucs and mating nucs are a different story. I want them to grow and I feed them to get the performance I want. 
And I get it.


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## Keith Jarrett

Lauri said:


> Keith on beesource sells Nutra bee. I have thought about trying that formula, but really have no reason to switch. Maybe he can fill us in on his product and it's comparison to Bee Pro.


I'm just listening and watching this thread, I think if folks stop and really look at what there feeding & the value of what there feeding, that would be a great start.


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## shinbone

Lauri - Thanks!


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## Keith Jarrett

In Lauri last pics of brood the larva looks very dry, there are many suttel clues along the way if one takes the time to smell the roses.


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## Lauri

Heres a close up of a new frame.


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## Keith Jarrett

Dry


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## gmcharlie

keith, what are you looking at the you consider dry, and what would you do differently??


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## Keith Jarrett

gmcharlie said:


> what are you looking at the you consider dry,


GM, The lava should be floating in jelly, even in the close up shot there is half jelly in cells, clearly not enough there.
It's all what you feed them, with all due repect to Lauri, look at the reciepe.


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## gmcharlie

thanks, any of those cells look okay? or can you provide a pic that you think is better?? not trying to argue, I would have said those were fine. seems I could use a tip. so you think the formula is off? trying to get a handle on your thoughts.


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## Lauri

Keith, if you have a better recipe or a better product then post it. If you think your product is better than Beepro, then say so.


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## Barry

I second that. Lay it all out there. And remember this in another thread:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?286507-Bee-Shield&p=983256#post983256


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## Rader Sidetrack

> Dry

Keith, how about you posting a similar photo of a hive fed Nutra-Bee so we can see the difference you are referring to?


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## Keith Jarrett

Whooollly smokes...lol OK

So Lauri, your form works out to be about 10-12% protein and your fats 3-4 this is just rough est but your not anywhere close.

Now, this thread is about xyz sub. Now then look up Randy Olivers site, go to bee nutrition, then pollen supplement formula, read #2 is how formula of Tryptophan. Ok, now look up the xyz sub where it has side by side useing the Degroot profile you can find this in there cataloge and show me how much Trytophane is there? 100 bucks go to the correct answer!


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## Lauri

Thanks Barry, I missed that thread.
When I want to get off my feet for a few minutes and cool down in the AC, Beesource is great entertainment...much better than 1 minute of CNN and 15 minutes of commercials...


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## Flyer Jim

ultra bee pollen sub 0% trytophane 

and I would like to get a pallet or two of sub next week


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## Waggle

Keith Jarrett said:


> Whooollly smokes...lol OK
> 
> So Lauri, your form works out to be about 10-12% protein and your fats 3-4 this is just rough est but your not anywhere close.
> 
> Now, this thread is about xyz sub. Now then look up Randy Olivers site, go to bee nutrition, then pollen supplement formula, read #2 is how formula of Tryptophan. Ok, now look up the xyz sub where it has side by side useing the Degroot profile you can find this in there cataloge and show me how much Trytophane is there? 100 bucks go to the correct answer!


You must be a politician. If you have the answer just save us old computer impaired folks a lot of headaches and put up or shut up. Post a picture of a frame of some larvae that are not "dry" because they have been fed on your wonder food.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Some of you may be interested in this earlier thread where _JSL_, who also sells a sub product in competition with Keith, posts some sub recipes:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?275973-Pollen-Sub-Formulations-Input&highlight=pollen


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## Lauri

I'm glad it's not just me. Sorry Keith, but your posts tell me nothing.

I am about the pickiest person you'll ever meet when it comes to nutrition..for myself or my critters. I expect nothing short of spectacular results, and I have to say, I am quite satisfied with my protein recipe. It may not be 100% balanced in the opinion of some, but remember: It is meant to _supplement_ natural feed, not replace it. I'm not a chemist or trained professional..but this recipe simply works for me. And although I have more hives than most hobbyists, I am not commercial. My bees don't rely just on my feed alone.

If someone has a better recipe, they will have to prove it by photos and facts, not just talk. 

Remember, I am not trying to sell anything. I have no reason to promote product. I get no kick back from Mann Lake, LOL. They keep taking my money just fine.


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## Keith Jarrett

Waggle said:


> put up or shut up. .


Ok Waggle, where is Tryptophan in this ?


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## Keith Jarrett

Lauri said:


> If someone has a better recipe, they will have to prove it by photos and facts, not just talk.
> .


Lauri, look up Nutra Bee on you tube. almonds 2013


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## Lauri

Keith Jarrett said:


> Lauri, look up Nutra Bee on you tube. almonds 2013


I use BEE PRO, not Nutra Bee


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## Keith Jarrett

Lauri said:


> Sorry Keith, but your posts tell me nothing.


I am giving you the key resources to why it makes a difference, any bone head can take a pic of there best couple of hives.


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## Keith Jarrett

Lauri, you asked for pics ??? I gave you the links to my videos of bees feed Nutra Bee


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## Rader Sidetrack

Keith Jarrett said:


> any *bone head* can take a pic of there best couple of hives.


> look up Nutra Bee on you tube. almonds 2013

Apparently, any _bone head _ can also post videos ...


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## Keith Jarrett

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > look up Nutra Bee on you tube. almonds 2013
> 
> Apparently, any _bone head _ can also post videos ...


Yeah, but theirs more than just one or two, you get the feel of the whole yard not just one or two.


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## Waggle

Keith Jarrett said:


> Yeah, but theirs more than just one or two, you get the feel of the whole yard not just one or two.


Do us all a favor and just post a link to one or two of your favorites, PLEASE.


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## Lauri

Keith doesn't post links, he wants you to search- like any good bonehead...hee hee


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## Keith Jarrett

Waggle, there was a report this spring, "Dan Rather buzz kill" on that report there was a farmer Perzes in Crows landing his bees were pretty much dead, I set bees on either side of that orchard the farmers are not happy. The youtube video under "2013 almond pollination" was at crow landing of my bees. Give me a second and I will look up some more pics.


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## Rader Sidetrack

If you are so confident that Nutra-Bee is the superior product, why is it that you feel a need to resort to calling someone else a *bone head*? 

Beyond that, Lauri is not selling a competing product, plus its my understanding that you do not offer sub products for sale in the smaller lots that are the subject of this thread.

Lauri posted several photos that clearly show brood in fine detail, and you criticized the brood quality with one word, "Dry". When invited to post similar photos of your own, you referred us to a general statement of: 

"look up Nutra Bee on you tube. almonds 2013"

Well, no matter how good your videos _may _be, the image detail of a video will _never _come close to the detail in Lauri's photo. So, once again, if you really believe you have the better product, post some brood photos of equivalent detail, and show us.


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## Keith Jarrett

Lauri said:


> Keith doesn't post links, he wants you to search- like any good bonehead...hee hee


Yeah know..... I'm giving you Randy Olivers web site?? I am much better with a hive tool in my hand than I am at this computer.


2. Mann Lake’s use of deGroot’s amino acid ratio is not quite accurate. deGroot did not specify percentages of amino acids–he specified a “normalized” ratio of amino acid weights relative to the amount of tryptophan. deGroot never implied that a formula should be 1.00% trypotophan–rather, divide all other amino acid weights (or percentages) by the weight/percentage of tryptophan, to obtain their relative value. For example, brewers yeast runs about 0.62% tryptophan and 1.7% threonine. So you’d divide 1.7 by 0.62 to obtain a ratio of 2.74:1 threonine:tryptophan, which is close to deGroot’s suggested ratio of 3:1


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## Keith Jarrett

Rader Sidetrack said:


> When invited to post similar photos of your own, you referred us to a general statement of:


RS, I'm not feeding yet so I don't have a close pics of brood to show you, I could only show the results of sub feeding, the pics I took were in Jan-Feb that the true results of fall-winter feeding.


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## Keith Jarrett

As far as the "Bone head" pics, you get this alot in bees, somebody takes a shot at there best hives but it doest really tell the true indicator of the whole yard. This remark was not at anyone, I'm sorry if someone took it that way. I go off of how the yard of bees look not indivual hives, it's easy to cherry pic the best for a photo op.


Here's a shaker in Jan this is the true proof of sub feeding.
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/100_1431-1.jpg


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## Mbeck

I make my own sub. I tried adding ingredients to commercially availible products to get them to perform to my standards. I was never happy with the results. I started a thread and posted the basics of the recipe I was starting with. I don't remember anyone presenting a concrete answers more like subtle hints. 

I think the correct answers are out there they are just mixed in with the wrong ones. If the answer to what nutritional value Pollen Sub should have could be correctly answered figuring out the rest is mostly math.


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## Lauri

My recipe is field tested and puppy approved! 










Of course my 1/2" drill can throw me around a bit if it gets snarled up on stuff. Maybe dancing a jig while you mix it is the secret ingredient.


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## Keith Jarrett

Rader Sidetrack said:


> plus its my understanding that you do not offer sub products for sale in the smaller lots that are the subject of this thread..


RS, we sell it in cardboard boxes now, as well as tubs.


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## Lauri

Here is a photo of a cherry tomato plant I'm growing. I posted it on my facebook page so people could see how it produces and what the growth habit is like in a hanging basket. 
Sure it is a good plant. It has a saucer glued to the pot to help retain water. I have a few more outside without a saucer that don't look as good. But what would that photo tell you? It could use more water? I got lucky with one plant? I'm trying to make myself look importaint?
Here you see a fair example of what this variety, Sweet Baby Girl tomato is like. 










Compared to Bush Early Girl:









Or Sweet Cluster:









You could make any conclusions you want. But the fact is, the photos are just for your information so you can make an informed choice. I don't care if you love tomatoes. I don't care if you hate tomatoes. I do not want to teach you how to grow tomatoes.I do not want to sell you tomatoes. But I _have_ grown all types over the years and am happy to take a few minutes so share info about my results. 

Not cherry picking a photo that is above and beyond the norm.

The photo I posted with the brood was taken to show why I like black rite cell and how nice healthy, clean, newly drawn frames look. How you can feed to continue growth in nucs after the flow. Not 'cherry picking' a photo to show brood, royal jelly, or lack of it according to Keith. 

I think the problem we all have with Keith's posts is that he is selling the product he is promoting-which creates a conflict of interest. No one else on Beesource has endorsed his product. With all the scammers these days, it's pretty easy to disregard anyone who can't or won't give up more information.

*Detailed nutritional breakdown of ingredients, prices, ordering info and business contact info would be a good start.*
I'd be willing to try a new product, but won't bite on blue skys from someone I don't know.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Miller-Compound-HoneyBees-and-Agriculture/256954971040510


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## muskratcreekhoney

Check out 2.7 http://www.extension.org/pages/28844/honey-bee-nutrition#2.8._Pollen_Nutrition_May_Play_a_Role_in_CCD


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## Keith Jarrett

Mrch, that's the data which is good, but sometimes it seems this thread they only want pics.


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## gmcharlie

I wasn't trying to get info on which sub is better, esoteric question, that could be discussed for days, Oh wait it is...

What I was hopeing for was a visual comparision of what one considers good vs bad.......


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## j.kuder

"I think the problem we all have with Keith's posts is that he is selling the product he is promoting-which creates a conflict of interest." 

you hit the nail right on the head Lauri he is a salesman and he can't have people sharing info on how to make their own stuff and avoid buying it from him. i've been following your facebook page and i like what i've been seeing :thumbsup: keep it up and keep sharing the great info.


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## Keith Jarrett

j.kuder;984209 he can't have people sharing info on how to make their own stuff and avoid buying it from him. [/QUOTE said:


> Couldn't bee futher from the truth, what i've been tring to do is educate some here on what to look for in a sub, like the value of Tryptophan, but once again it went nowhere. As far as selling sub we are swamed at the moment. We are ONLY shipping in semi load lot at this time.Best of luck to all.


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## Keith Jarrett

gmcharlie said:


> What I was hopeing for was a visual comparision of what one considers good vs bad.......


GMC, it takes two-three months later is when you really see the results of sub feeding, feeding in the fall the following early spring is where to judge weather you had success or not.


Why this is important is longevity, you cant tell how long a bee is going to live from a picture of brood, but, if you come back after winter and take a look in early spring it gives you better gauge. How to get longer living bees in great diverity in your sub along with other things such as 24-methyene cholesterol.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Keith Jarrett said:


> As far as selling sub we are swamed at the moment. We are ONLY shipping in *semi load lot* at this time.Best of luck to all.





Keith Jarrett said:


> RS, we sell it in cardboard boxes now, as well as tubs.


So now where are the smaller customers that had been buying Nutra-Bee in the boxes and tubs? _Under the bus?_


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## Keith Jarrett

If they havent had there order in they wont be able to pick until Spet 1.

Any other thought provocing question RS.


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## jim lyon

Keith: Better get that building up sooner rather than later.


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## Keith Jarrett

I know Jimmy, trying to help some here but Boy I am struggling. 

They say a picture is worth a thousand words, I would like to meet that guy. LOL


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## Goldprospector

Keith Jarrett said:


> Mrch, that's the data which is good, but sometimes it seems this thread they only want pics.


Since I am the OP and I asked the question....Look at the title to the thread..."Products like" I don't know or care at the moment who's product is best. I came back to beekeeping last year from being out of it for over 20 years...20 years ago I never fed a pollen substitute, I never had a nuc. I split hives and they raise a queen and did fine. I have some now that are a little slow and I was just curious to see it this "TYPE" of product works. If you say your product works to aid in brood rearing in the fall as I asked, then Great! If Lauri says the product that she uses works, then that is Great too! 
This thread was not made to start a war, but I make no apologies, it does answer my question even though you tried to go through some round about back door to say that this"type" product works. You simply could have said "Yes, these product do work but I like XYZ brand better than Mann Lake", then you could have posted your reasons, and you would not have looked like a villain or a politician, or bonehead, or whatever else anyone thinks of you.

My question has been answers and could have been answered without all of the grade school drama of people trying to sound like something they are not.


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## Keith Jarrett

Goldprospector said:


> then you could have posted your reasons, and you would not have looked like a villain or a politician, or bonehead, or whatever else anyone thinks of you..


GP, I tryed, I try to get the folks to look up Trytophan in ultra bee, they ML list every one in a side by side comparison with DeGroot in there own cataloge but DO NOT LIST Tryptophan, then I went to Randy Olivers site and show them how pollen sub protein is calculated by ratio of Tryptophan.If you do not know the level of Tryptophan you are flying blind. I give up.


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## j.kuder

Keith Jarrett said:


> Couldn't bee futher from the truth, what i've been tring to do is educate some here on what to look for in a sub, like the value of Tryptophan, but once again it went nowhere. As far as selling sub we are swamed at the moment. We are ONLY shipping in semi load lot at this time.Best of luck to all.


if your trying to educate then educate you would do a lot better not to criticize.


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## davidsbees

Some claim to be trying to help but not saying much. If you looking to ad tryptophan you can try seal liver or you try the next best thing soy protien isolate.


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## Barry

I know there's a shirt in this somewhere! Keith, bus, sub, secret ingredients . . .  How many should I order on the first run?

"I think the problem we all have with Keith's posts is that he is selling the product he is promoting-which creates a conflict of interest."

I know this is often how it looks on the surface, but it just ain't so. If anyone of you were to spend time actually talking to Keith about this topic, you would have a very different understanding. Look, he often gives you information to consider for making sub. See http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-like-Mann-Lake-Ultra-bee&p=983905#post983905
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-like-Mann-Lake-Ultra-bee&p=983926#post983926
and other older threads. Keith wants you to do your homework and has said all the information is out there, as Mbeck also mentioned. I would suggest to anyone who feels they are not getting straight answers from Keith, call him. He'll talk to you till it's bedtime!


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## JSL

Goldprospector,

The short answer to your question is yes, feeding syrup and sub will help stimulate brood rearing. Do your bees need it is a good question too. The honey bee colony functions as a “unit” in terms of a living organism. Most subs will work fine for short periods of time, especially in most hobbyist situations where there is relatively little competition for resources and short breaks between natural pollen availability. If a sub is just a little short on a nutrient it simply limits the efficiency of the sub, but for most hobbyists what’s a few extra cents or dollars lost? If the deficiency in the sub is more critical, it takes weeks to deplete the resources of the colony “unit”.

Large scale commercial beekeeping is a whole other situation entirely. Bees are dependent on the beekeeper, so the diet better be right as it may be the only source of food or nutrients for a sustained period of time. Most diets are pretty good overall, but there is always room for improvement. There is plenty of new research and insight, which is why it boggles my mind when beekeepers cite DeGroot’s 1953 research. The next time you go to your doctor, please ask him or her to pull out their 1953 medical guide to determine the proper treatment for your visit today. 

Thanks,
Joe


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## Flyer Jim

American Bee Journal, June 2013 page 649 
Beekeeper Management, paragraph 2


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## Barry

Also: http://194.47.52.113/janlars/partnerskapalnarp/ekonf/20130516/deGroot1953.pdf


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## JSL

Thanks Barry! It is great reading, but research has come a long way in 60 years!


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## Barry

That is true Joe, but surely you would agree that much of what we call "current" research is built upon that which is "old" and true? Is there really that major of shift away from that of DeGroot's findings? I think there needs to be a proper balance between the two, old and new.


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## JSL

Barry,

I certainly agree, new research builds on old. DeGroot’s work is meticulous, which is why it is so fascinating to read. Cutting edge, I am sure for the time. The biggest change I see from DeGroot’s work, which is also mirrored in other animal diets, is a shift in focus to managing “all” nutrients collectively. Degroot focused primarily on a small number of available protein sources and hinted at attempts with vitamins and minerals, but gave no measure of them. There are 6 commonly accepted nutrient groups, 30+ individual nutrients and protein is just part of the larger picture.

Beekeepers expect and demand so much from their bees today. In many ways, I think we are really pushing them to their limit.

Joe


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## Mbeck

Does using glucose and fructose in place of sucrose as a Sub ingredient change the way that bees utilize Sub?


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## Mbeck

JSL said:


> Thanks Barry! It is great reading, but research has come a long way in 60 years!


What should the complete nutrient profile of a Pollen Sub look like.


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## Lauri

It's true, what it boils down to is how complete and balanced the formula is/what length of time the bees will be relying on the feed.

Imbalances in feed for extended periods of time can cause serious health effects, specially if that product is the _only_ source of feed. Without other sources to offset deficiencies or contaminates, you run the risk of overexposure / undernourishment issues.

For example, a feed commonly fed to horses is rice bran. In it's natural form, it has a calcium/phosphorous imbalance that over time can cause brittle bones and fracture. Stabilized rice bran had been altered to be nutritionally balanced to avoid this side effect. 

Keith's referral to the amino acid 'Trytophane' is noted. But when I say your posts tell me nothing, I mean you kind of hint at this and hint at that without really giving any real information. Directing us to Randy's site and saying I should rethink my recipe is pretty vague. I have read most of Randy Olivers site. I'll have to go back and review it again. But I'm not sure I'll grasp the importaince of the point you are trying to make.

I try hard to be good at what I do. I like to do my research. But sometimes, just once in a while, I would just like a simple answer. Not have to search all over the Internet to figure it out.
Keith, you obviously don't like my recipe. Please just say what you don't like about it and how you would change it. I'd be interested in improvement if it is possible.


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## Barry

JSL said:


> but research has come a long way in 60 years!


Joe, can you post links here to some of the current research you feel is important so we have it all together in this thread?


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## Goldprospector

Keith Jarrett said:


> GP, I tryed, I try to get the folks to look up Trytophan in ultra bee, they ML list every one in a side by side comparison with DeGroot in there own cataloge but DO NOT LIST Tryptophan, then I went to Randy Olivers site and show them how pollen sub protein is calculated by ratio of Tryptophan.If you do not know the level of Tryptophan you are flying blind. I give up.


I understand what you are trying to accomplish. I also understand that other people have had success with what they use. I really don't have a problem with educational lessons but I don't have a problem with the short answer and consensus either.
I appreciate the links, along with pictures. I feel like I understand that it does work, but I also understand that long term use needs to be more balanced. 
Again, I am just trying to get a late nuc to build up quicker.


----------



## WBVC

for your protein patties am I correct in your recipe having both brewers yeast and the commercial product in the recipe? I tried making some in the kitchen...my mixer was not happy so off to get a paint mixing paddle Those patty pacs are they from a commercial supplier or where?
Thanks


----------



## Lauri

If you are talking about mine, yes. I _use _to use 50% brewers yeast and 50% Bee Pro, but Mann lake changed suppiers of yeast and I don't like the new product. But if I use all BeePro, the patties turn rock hard. Some brewers yeast is necessary to get the right consistancy and reduce the amount of soybean flour in the mix.
The new yeast they carry doesn't look, smell or taste like brewers yeast. Too much of it in the recipe and the patties are gummy and runny, no matter how thick you make it. I'm not really sure what it is. I'd love to get a few 50# sacks of a better quality yeast. 


Those patty packs are from a local retail restaurant supply called 'Cash & Carry'

https://www.smartfoodservice.com/


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Lauri said:


> But when I say your posts tell me nothing, I mean you kind of hint at this and hint at that without really giving any real information. Directing us to Randy's site and saying I should rethink my recipe is pretty vague. .


Lauri, What I was/am trying to do is give you formula to run the numbers on your own mix. If you read the link of Randy's it talk about how to do that. What I was shooting for is for you to run the numbers on your own mix and you would find your low in a few things, then you would be able to search out some products to fill in the viods and have a much better balanced sub. You also would know how to run the numbers and nobody could pull the wool over your eyes. This thread has/is about ultra bee, so now when we look at the ML cataloge and we see the chart with Ultra bee & DeGoot we know the chart means nothing until we know the missing clue
Tryptophan. Hope you can understand where I was going with this.


----------



## JSL

Barry,

Here is a link for an Apidologie Review Article that I like. It does a nice job of summarizing and puts some numbers/values with things.

Apidologie 41 (2010) 278–294 – Nice Review Article
http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/2010/03/m09120.pdf

The internet is also a wealth of information as many companies post their “spec sheets” online. For example, you can get a complete analysis for a given soy flour or yeast. Then you can calculate out the numbers for each nutrient. I like using natural pollen compositions as the starting point. Let’s use protein as a broad example. To calculate the protein content of a diet using a 50/50 blend of soy (53% protein) and yeast (45% protein).

If we make a 100 pound batch of dry feed and the soy and yeast make up 90 pounds or 90% of the dry feed (the other 10 pounds would be vitamins minerals, and oil):

For the soy part
90 pounds x .50 (or 50%) x .53 (or 53% protein for soy) = 
45 pounds soy x .53 (or 53% protein for soy) = 23.85 pounds soy protein

For the yeast part
90 pounds x .50 (or 50%) x .45 (or 45% protein for yeast) = 
45 pounds yeast x .45 (or 45% protein for soy) = 20.25 pounds yeast protein

Total protein (on a “dry matter basis”) 
23.85 pounds soy protein + 20.25 pounds yeast protein = 44.1 pounds total protein in a 100 pound batch. This means 44.1 pounds protein / 100 pounds dry feed = 44.1% protein

To make this into patties, typically we use around 40 pounds dry feed mixed with 60 pounds water and sugar. To calculate the as fed % protein…

40 pounds dry feed x .441 (or 44.1% protein) = 17.64 pounds protein in a 100 pound batch of patties, or 17.64% protein on an “as fed basis” for each patty.

Sorry for the length post, but try this for each nutrient!:scratch:


----------



## Lauri

Thanks Keith. I'll look again when I have more time.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

And thank you Joe! :thumbsup: I have bookmarked this for future threads. :lookout:


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## Lauri

Yes, thank you Joe


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## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> There is plenty of new research and insight, which is why it boggles my mind when beekeepers cite DeGroot’s 1953 research. The next time you go to your doctor, please ask him or her to pull out their 1953 medical guide to determine the proper treatment for your visit today. 
> 
> Thanks,
> Joe


Joe are you implying that Degroot's protein profile is wrong or incorrect ?


----------



## Saltybee

I am still amazed at beesource's ability to find the grain of disagreement in the face of nearly total agreement.

Take aways from this discussion;

Lauri's apple cider vinegar adds an important ingrediant; flavor. Nutrition does not matter if they do not eat it. I recall a Michael Bush and others thread about cider vinegar in syrup causing robbing. Using it in patties makes sense.

Never thought of sub helping with wax. Thanks Cam and Ray.

Both Keith Jarrett and Joe Latshaw sell there product by the tote. Some big producers must like it a lot, must be for a reason. 

Neither man likes to sell it in small quantities; They are not trying to drum up more little guy business here when they share their knowledge.

Neither man is going to do a Julia Childs impersonation with his recipe. Get over it. Thank you for the imput.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> Neither man likes to sell it in small quantities

Well, some of Joe Latshaw's bee feed products are available in smaller quantities. Here are 4 lb bags and 40 lb bags:
http://www.betterbee.com/Products?search=Latshaw


----------



## G B

Well gang I don't have a dog in this fight but maybe I cam shed a little light on a couple things. I met Keith 4-5 years ago. Over this few years we have discussed many things and a common theme has surfaced in my mind regarding Keith. He is willing to help people, he is willing to pass along very usful info to a noob. He isn't however going to just give you the answer to the test. He wants you to do your homework and draw your own conclusions. We then usually talk about what I come up with. Sometimes I get a good job George and sometimes I get a little tune up. He is not the kind of guy to pussy foot around, he is not mean but, he is direct. He comes across gruff especially over the internet As it is hard to convey emotions etc. What's Keith has taught me to do is fish, so I can feed myself another day, he wants others here to be able to look at a sub- recipe and figure out for your self if this is a good balanced formula and if its priced right for what your getting. I have been in his bees a couple times over the years and he does have huge hives in Feb.Now wether it's because of his sub or because he is actually an witch doctor with a grass skirt and a chicken leg around his neck Or what I don't know ( sorry Keith I couldn't help myself). These are just some thoughts that have come to mind as I have looked over this thread. And yes I pay the same price for my sub as anyone else, so no discount to plug the product. Anyway best to all and good luck with your bees . GB


----------



## gmcharlie

Kieth is obviously pretty bright, and a good beek, but his inability to give a straight simple answer is really annoying.


----------



## LSHonda310

Keith Jarrett said:


> Yeah know..... I'm giving you Randy Olivers web site??



Keith, I have a question about Randy's "Kitchen Sink" brew found here http://scientificbeekeeping.com/pollen-supplement-formula/

Is there any ingredient that doesn't need to be there? 
For example: does the citric acid, lemon, and ascorbic acid all need to be put in, or is just one needed?
Also is the ground cinnamon needed?

Thanks for all your help!


----------



## shinbone

Not trying to be mean, but, Nutra-Bee is not available in smaller quantities for a hobbyist, like myself. Consequently, I have no interest in what Keith Jarret has to say about bee nutrition.

I do find his coy way of communicating to come across as suspiscious, though.


----------



## LSHonda310

shinbone said:


> Not trying to be mean, but, Nutra-Bee is not available in smaller quantities for a hobbyist, like myself. Consequently, I have no interest in what Keith Jarret has to say about bee nutrition.
> 
> I do find his coy way of communicating to come across as suspiscious, though.


Maybe you should read the whole thread, he does have in smaller quantities


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> Maybe you should read the whole thread, he does have in smaller quantities

Well, I _have _read the entire thread, and Keith says he is _*not shipping *_the box and tub sizes at this point.


----------



## shinbone

Even if smaller quantities were available, where would you buy it? I can find no mention on the internet of where I might buy Nutra-Bee, if it were ever in stock.

Mr. Jarret can manage his business anyway he wants and maybe he truly has a deep understanding of bee nutritution, but the cryptic communication in a public forum, plus the dis-interest in supplying product to nothing but big operations doesn't leave me with a good image.

JMHO


----------



## Keith Jarrett

LSHonda310 said:


> Is there any ingredient that doesn't need to be there?
> For example: does the citric acid, lemon, and ascorbic acid all need to be put in, or is just one needed?
> Also is the ground cinnamon needed?
> Thanks for all your help!


LSH, the answer to your first question is I don't know, what I mean by that is, we'll take brewer yeast, is it P41 or P62? Brewers yeast comes in different states of PH levels so we need to know that , Also, Randy has in there soy isolates, is it 82% protein up to 92% protein, the picture I'm try to draw is there are alot of varibles with in a product depending on the manufactor, so if we said I use brewers & soy what else should I use, you can see with out knowing the "CA" or spec sheet it could be hard to answer.

Citri acid, lemon need to be in there, here again if we knew a little more info on Randy's spec sheet, But, I can tell you this you need to be in the PH range of 4.25-4.75 that what you should shoot for, thats what the lemon & citri acid is in there for.

Ground cinnamon.... I've seen folks on both sides of the fence on that one, I myself am on the fence as well, I try not to form an opinion and rush to judgment until I see some more. 

Nutra bee sub comes in at 20% plus protein & 8% fats.
Keith


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Shin, two more weeks then we we be caught up.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

shinbone said:


> but the cryptic communication in a public forum, JMHO


lol... now that made my day. Oh... and thanks for the kind words GB, maybe I'm a little short & direct, but my main goal was to get the info in the keepers hands so they could then go out and make an informed decision on how to make ther own sub or buy. So, in my last post I said i have 20% protein in nutra bee BUT so does ultra bee..... so know that we have come full circle and mine BTW has Tryptophan in it!


----------



## shinbone

"_Shin, two more weeks then we we be caught up. _"

Sounds good.


----------



## JSL

BTW, Tryptophan is in brewers yeast and soy products.

Joe


----------



## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> BTW, Tryptophan is in brewers yeast and soy products.
> 
> Joe


But at what levels Joe? That's the whole heart of most of this thread, getting the right amounts. I think David said the same thing, but he had seal liver ( chop chop boys). This is what seperates the one's that are just throwing mud on the wall verses the ones that are aiming at the target.

P.S. thier's alot of mud slinging going on out there.


----------



## JSL

Sorry Keith, I thought you were suggesting other supplements did not contain tryptophan. That's what caught my attention as tryptophan is a pretty ubiquitous amino acid when it comes to feed ingredients that supply protein. 

Joe


----------



## Mbeck

JSL said:


> tryptophan is a pretty ubiquitous amino acid when it comes to feed ingredients that supply protein.
> Joe


Is there a protien feed source out there that is lacking or has an insignificant amount?


----------



## JSL

Mbeck,

Generally speaking, no. Using multiple protein sources helps to “balance out” amino acids. Keep in mind that honey bees consume a plant based diet for all intensive purposes. Most readily available protein sources, used for pollen supplement, are plant derived. This is true for a good portion of the animal feed industry. Corn and Soy are commonly used to complement each other in animal rations, because they help fill the short comings of each product. For bees, we typically use soy and yeast, which complement each other pretty well. Also keep in mind that when you get into using isolates, such as soy or corn gluten, you have to be very mindful of other nutrients. Such products have higher protein contents, but in order to get the higher protein content other nutrients are removed. Hence the term “isolate”, as the production process isolates the protein component of the grain. 

Joe


----------



## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> Sorry Keith, I thought you were suggesting other supplements did not contain tryptophan. That's what caught my attention as tryptophan is a pretty ubiquitous amino acid when it comes to feed ingredients that supply protein.
> 
> Joe


Joe, one that was mention earlyer we don't know how much Tryphan it contains because they listed ONLY 9 out of 10 ( the sly pooches), 

Empyeal 75 by Cargill has a dry base protein of 82% BUT, has only 0.42% Tryptophan . hmmmm 


>Tryptophan is a pretty ubiquitous amino acid when it comes to feed ingredients that supply protein>

you sure about that Joe


----------



## JSL

Keith,

I’m sure. Please reread my previous post. Feeding simply isolates such as Empreal 75, which is a corn gluten product, is a mistake. As I wrote, multiple protein sources help to balance each other out. You should know that. That is why I also wrote in my last post that corn and soy are often used in conjunction with each other and smaller proportions of isolates to increase the overall protein level.

Joe


----------



## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> Keith,
> 
> I’m sure. Please reread my previous post. oe


I see you changed since the #100 that I quoted you from. There a BIG difference between your 100 & 102 post. Good enough Joe, I think everybody following get it.


----------



## JSL

Keith,

Just so that I get it… Tryptophan is still pretty ubiquitous, meaning present in most protein sources, post #100

Balanced nutrition is best (not just based on one nutrient such as tryptophan), hence the multiple protein sources, post #102

BIG difference, Change?!:scratch:

Joe


----------



## JBJ

We have now gone through about 4000 pounds of Keith's substitute. We use it now to fatten the bees up for winter and in January to build up for pollination. We also like it on the cell builders where copious jelly production is critical. I have not tried them all but Keith's so far is the best. Ample nutrition goes a long way towards ameliorating most bee problems.


----------



## davidsbees

In the sub I make and have posted, tryptophan has not been the limiting amino acid, methionine has been the one to come up short. So adding a little egg to the latest mix has balanced the amino acid profile. The protein is 20.2 Ph 4.4. a complete nutritional analysis runs a little over $300 Then you have to run the numbers through a formula that Randy SHARED with me to compare to DeGroots numbers.


----------



## dnichols

The following is a list of Essential Amino Acids of a complete protein. This list can be found with a simple google search. These are optimal proportions to support the biological functions of humans and animals. The issue here is doing the research and studies to produce a product that has these proportions. It is easier to make a product that has all these EAAs but not nesessarily in the right proportions. Most hobbiest or even sideliners probably don't have the money or maybe interest in getting a nutritional profile done on their kitchen brew sub. But hey I could be wrong. I have not used Keith's product but I am sure he spent some money to make a decent product and I would like to try it.

Although more expensive I would use nutritional yeast instead of brewers yeast in a home brew sub. It is a complete protein.

All #s are mg/g of protein.

Tryptophan	7
Threonine	27
Isoleucine	25
Leucine	55
Lysine	51
Methionine+Cystine	25
Phenylalanine+Tyrosine	47
Valine	32
Histidine	18


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

Some ideas on bee nutrition:

https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/05-054
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/as...honey-bee-nutrition-supplementary-feeding.pdf
http://www.honeybee.com.au/Library/pollen/nutrition.html


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## JSL

David,

Glad to see your post. I see the same thing in that methionine tends to be the limiting amino acid when using a Yeast and Soy based diet. This is true if applying DeGroot’s ratios, although I am not sure about methionine. If you look at the analyses of composite samples of natural pollen, methionine is often lower. But a 50/50 blend of yeast and soy meets the other requirements nicely. I have an Excel table around here some place that I need to dig up and see if I can get posted. Then there is the matter of vitamins and minerals, which are the “keys” that allow bees to drive the metabolic pathways to process the protein they ingest.

Bernhardheuvel,

I like your last link of the three you posted. It has some very clear and concise values!

Joe


----------



## j.kuder

Now thats educating!!!
thanks


----------



## Lauri

Glad to see this thread producing some real information for beekeepers of every level.

Since you brought up the egg ingredient, I will ask this:
After viewing Randy's recipe, I considered adding the egg or egg yolk to my mix. He uses dried egg. 
I have plenty of extra eggs due to my hens and turkeys, but why dry the egg if it is just going to be re hydrated in the mix? Did Randy use dried egg for convenience sake or is there a reason? 
No, I won't try to contact him. I am sure he gets overwhelmed with questions, especially now since he is the focus of that Time article.
My concern with is spoilage. Any thoughts about using fresh eggs?
One note: In the summer and fall months, my Patties are usually consumed within a week's time before being reapplied. I could put more on the hive, but limit the amount so it is always somewhat fresh. 










I am also looking for another source for 50# sacks of Brewers Yeast. Any contact info you can share? (I dont care for Mann Lake's since they switched suppliers.) 

Heres an update..email from Ed at Mann Lake:

Lauri,
The brewer’s yeast we have now is different than what I sold you last year. I’m going to send you a sample. Also, I’m including analysis of a comparison of brewer’s yeast and Bee Pro.



For what it’s worth, Bee Pro does have a higher protein content and is consumed faster. Consumption is probably because of the sugars that are in Bee Pro. We don’t add sugar. It’s what’s already there.



Later this fall, Randy Oliver, who’s been doing feed trial for us, will have a write up regarding his findings. Not sure where they’ll be published, but once I have a copy, I’ll forward it.

*****
Looks like I'l be ordering from Mann Lake again.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

JSL said:


> I have an Excel table around here some place that I need to dig up and see if I can get posted.


Posting XLS files are "allowed" by the forum software, but sometimes members seem to have issues with the built in attachment feature. If you do have an Excel file available to post and it won't work correctly, don't give up. _Barry _may be able to help, or you can PM me. I just tried a test XLS file and got it to upload OK.


----------



## dnichols

Lauri,

Try bulkfoods.com they are out of OH. I have used them for brewers yeast and nutritional yeast with good service. I am not sure how their prices compare to ML but you can check it out.


----------



## LSHonda310

I found this sight for brewers yeast

http://www.joshsfrogs.com/brewers-yeast-50-lbs.html

they also have in 3 pound quantities, but is $3.00 per pound


----------



## j.kuder

gotta tell ya lauri every time i see that pic. makes me want a big scoop on a sugar cone.


----------



## Saltybee

Lauri, for what is worth I have used raw egg yolk in a small test sample. ( The white is suposed to be undigestable to a bee. ) Left it on the counter in covered container for a week at 40 -50 degrees, then for a couple of months refrigerated. The high sugar content does not let it spoil.


----------



## Lauri

Thank you all, yes, I saw the Josh's frog site yesterday, but it said the shipping price was unavailable. I will check the other suggestions too. 
I'll try the fresh yolk to my recipe on a few hives to test it. As person that cans food, I know the acidity of food is what determines the rate/susceptibility for spoilage. My vinegar percentage is already quite high in my recipe. It should be benefitial to helping the freshness of the added egg yolk. 

I won't know the health benefit for quite some time, but will be able to tell if it stays fresh right away.
I'll let you all know how it goes.


----------



## davidsbees

Yeast from ethonal production does not have the same nutritional value as brewers or nutritional although the the analysis may say different. I use Honeyville for the dried egg you can source a cheaper supply from cal spray dry in sac. But one wif and you'll why know I don't use it.


----------



## WBVC

I am new to beekeeping and have followed this thread with some interest.

Searching on line it seems most DIY recipes have brewers yeast, soy flour, sugar and water in various amounts. Some add in commercial pollen supplements, low fat milk powder, egg, oil etc. Some advocate feeding in a dry form others moist.

When checking nutritional values on some of the commercial products I could not find tryptophane and many other nutrients found in honey, pollen and nectar listed on any I saw (likely only saw the tip of the ice berg) and the % of amino acids all differed and differed from the de Groot values. I presume these are based on a dry matter analysis. It appears that that resource listed only 10 essential aa for bees. Also that resource, unless I am wrong, is from 1953...not exactly recent science....not meaning it is wrong but perhaps very incomplete.

A quick search for pollen chemistry indicates there are many things in pollen that aren't listed in commercial bee supplements...not certain of source but an example is: http://www.envirobee.com/beepollen3.htm

The same data can be found for honey and there is a lot of data on plant nectars as well.

In short I remain confused as to what supplement is best nutritionally for my bees in both the short and long term.(I can't really get my head around cane sugar or equivalent being an optimum nutrition source on its own).

Is the biggest over wintering issue subclinical or clinical disease combined with housing husbandry rather than nutrition? If we feed our bees substances that do not accurately meet their physiological needs are we in the long run doing more harm than good?

Are there any firm double blind peer reviewed studies that can demonstrate that any one of the commercial and/or homemade feeding supplements is better than another or if any are better than nothing (given a hive has adequate natural reserves) or sugar alone?

It seems that there are a lot of these products purchased and fed but is it being done on anecdotal or scientific evidence?

Hopefully someone will be able to help me sort out these feeding issues (spring build up, summer dearth, fall build up, over wintering).

Thanks so much...


----------



## WBVC

Humans and animals are essentially one of the same....a bee is an insect. Are their needs the same or specific. Having a complete protein is one thing being able to utilize them as an energy source is also required.


----------



## WBVC

Thank you for listing the resources in post #110


----------



## dnichols

An insect is an animal. Maybe you meant humans and mammals. However you are right it's the utilization of these EAAs that is the important part if this whole discussion. The third link in post 110 has a lot of good info regarding this very question. The questions still in front of us...is the home brew sub concoction beneficial or detrimental and how to make one close to what the bees need without buying a commercial recipe?


----------



## Lauri

Great thread!

Just wait until I start another one about feeding sugar bricks in winter. I look forward to input and discussion about that. Sure to become controversial since some feed and some don't.

I had great luck with my sugar blocks the last two years, also made with cider vinegar, electrolytes and Pro Health...sprinkled with a little dry beepro on top. Even with plenty of stores, they all utilized them. 
I won't post details yet. I'll wait for another thread on winter feeding.
Here's a few teaser photos:






































I prefer to overwinter in a two story set up, but after seeing how the bees utilize the bricks, I am no longer as concerned if I have to overwinter a single box of any size.


----------



## imthegrumpyone

Vary interesting thread, but I always wonder when man intervenes on behalf of animals (insects) when they and bees have been around longer than us. I hope I learned more, and didn't just get confused. I see the point in looking up information on your own, you'll retain more, but when it's in such vast quantities and your wondering which way to turn, sometimes a simple answer helps tremendously. No offense meant.


----------



## WBVC

dnichols said:


> An insect is an animal. Maybe you meant humans and mammals. However you are right it's the utilization of these EAAs that is the important part if this whole discussion. The third link in post 110 has a lot of good info regarding this very question. The questions still in front of us...is the home brew sub concoction beneficial or detrimental and how to make one close to what the bees need without buying a commercial recipe?


Yes..sorry 

but not just DIY products but the commercial ones as well. I have no idea how much solid research is behind those rather than just well marketed DIY


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Lauri, did you get a chance to read post #110 the last link?


----------



## Lauri

Not yet Keith, too busy right now. Maybe tonight.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Well, when you get time Lauri, then going back threw this brewsing thread (lol) you will see what I've been saying is the same in post#110. You will see that protein is at the for-front and the base is at 20%, and that the amino acids are important. This link echo's pretty much what I have said on this thread.


----------



## Lburou

Redacted....Posted in wrong thread


----------



## JSL

DeGroot did not suggest an optimal protein content, but rather an optimal ratio. When we analyze natural pollen samples, we look at a composite, meaning what the hive collects over a given period, especially during periods of rapid growth. I think we have to be careful and not look at individual pollen samples and draw the conclusion that it is better for some arbitrary reason. The composite pollen samples that we have analyzed, generally come in well below the 20% protein level, many in the 15-17% range.

I see this line of thinking in the animal industry as well, if a little protein is good, then more must be better… Most feed stuffs are priced on protein content, since that is a major component of what the producer is trying to provide. As a kid, my dad and I did a science fair project using broiler chickens. They are the fastest growing production animal with the most efficient feed to gain ratio. We wanted to show that that a well balanced feed could have a much lower total protein content and still produce optimal growth and muscle development, thus providing a monetary benefit for the grower. We were able to do that and use a feed that was nearly 4% less than the commercial standard, but it was a well balanced feed.

We have done the same in the world of bees. We have designed diets in 23% protein range down to the 13% protein range. All have worked well and provide plenty of nutrients for growth, but they all were properly balanced. EACH nutrient is carefully analyzed and incorporated into the diet, there are nearly 30 other them to properly balance. I realize most research focuses on protein content, perhaps because that is the least expensive analytical test and it makes up the majority of the diet. But the true value comes from optimizing the vitamins and mineral levels so that the bees can efficient utilize the energy contained in the diet. There other animal industries realized this many decades ago, and beekeepers are getting there.

Joe


----------



## LSHonda310

thanks for your reply Joe.

If I bought your bee food, what is the recommended mixing? Do I just mix it with sugar syrup to make patties?


----------



## JSL

LS,

Yes, it is pretty easy. Just add sugar, water, and oil to the dry mix. Some use corn syrup, which has a slightly different consistency.

Joe


----------



## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> The composite pollen samples that we have analyzed, generally come in well below the 20% protein level, many in the 15-17% range.
> Joe


Here are just a couple of lab results date 1995 that I doug out of my files, this is the avg what we have

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/labresults-beepollen2_zpse5897cef.jpg

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/labresults-beepollen_zps28ed8cab.jpg

We have been testing for decades long before sub became to popular. Joe believes that 15-17 % range of protein and we at Nutra Bee believe 20% pluse base on years of lab test of bee pollen.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

JSL said:


> I see the same thing in that methionine tends to be the limiting amino acid when using a Yeast and Soy based diet. This is true if applying DeGroot’s ratios, although I am not sure about methionine. If you look at the analyses of composite samples of natural pollen, methionine is often lower. But a 50/50 blend of yeast and soy meets the other requirements nicely. I have an Excel table around here some place that I need to dig up and see if I can get posted.


The Excel table the Joe referenced above is available for download below.

I am posting this on behalf of Joe as there are still unresolved "issues" with his account settings that affect uploading attachments.


----------



## JSL

Keith, thanks for posting the analyses! I am not arguing what percentage of protein is optimal as I believe requirements change throughout the season. Some of our analyses came in higher some came in lower. We shoot for the long term average. Our Bee Food is formulated for right around 18% protein on an as fed basis. For some applications, it is slightly higher when using less sugar or water in the patty. What I am trying to convey is that a balanced diet is best.

Keith, your analyses are interesting for a couple of reasons. First, your one overall analysis states a protein content of 21.56%. Your second detailed analysis is 18.72% protein. Second, the Tryptophan level in your detailed analysis is 0.26g/100g sample. This means 0.26% Tryptophan overall or 1.38% for protein content alone. I am not criticizing these numbers at all, it is just interesting to see the diversity in samples. The more diversity the better! The more samples the closer you get to a long term average.

Thoroughly enjoying this thread!
Joe


----------



## JSL

Graham, Thanks so much!


----------



## LSHonda310

I have always heard that beekeeping is very local. Has anyone ever taken pollen at the same time of year from different parts of the country and had it checked for nutrition?


----------



## WBVC

The materials cited in #110 seem to indicate otherwise...they seem to support accessible CP levels in the mid to high 20s


----------



## JRG13

WBVC why do you say ONLY 10 essential amino acids? You do understand why they call them essential? Are there any studies done on the composition or royal jelly or what bees feed larva? I'd be interested to see the proteins, enzymes and other compounds found and you could break down amino acid compositions/needs there as well.


----------



## davidsbees

This a sample of olive pollen (old world) it has high protien & sugar low fat then a sample of corn (new world) not as good but the bees really build on it and more abundant


----------



## JSL

David,

Was it a sample of corn pollen or corn meal? Feed grade corn typically comes in around 8% protein, sometimes a little lower, but this is for the actual corn portion and not the pollen.

Thanks,
Joe


----------



## davidsbees

It's corn pollen a few years back did a lot of testing to come up with a base line to build our sub on.


----------



## WBVC

It is my understanding that essential aa are those that can't be synthesized in vitro but have to be acquired...even if the building blocks are provided. I know very little about insects...bar from a standard undergrad Honours Zoology degree. In mammals there is variance between species on specific nutritional requirements.

I did find an article on Royal Jelly ..but it required $$ and I did not purchase it ...nor do I know how good the data is. http://www.ibra.org.uk/articles/Composition-of-freshly-harvested-and-commercial-royal-jelly

Mammalian nutrition is complex and the nuances are specific for species, age, health, use etc etc. I expect it is a similar case for insects.

I like would to provide adequate, or preferably optimum, nutrition and general husbandry for the bees in my care. From dealing with mammals I know "best intentions" often lead to disasters.

I presume that insect nutrition is equally complex..http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022191011003623

This is a great thread...I am hoping o get more insight into feeding. The links in post #110 are interesting and informative to a new beekeeper. I am hoping that somewhere in this thread I will get an idea as to which commercial bee protein supplement will best suit the needs of farmed bees on the Canadian side of the 49th parallel There are many to choose from but so far short of shooting a dart I am uncertain.

Specific advice would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## RAK

We use soy, brewers yeast, egg powder, and whole dried milk with good results. Also oil and citric acid. If I were a hobbiest I would use Bee pro and mix in my pollen I collect. These ingredients are only worth it when you buy totes of it. Ill post the specs on our patties but last time I made these I had 22% protein with 7% fat. We will start mixing in a week after supers are off.

Many tell me the milk is bad for bees. I used it for last 2 years with good results.


----------



## VolunteerK9

What am I missing or not understanding about the significance of tryptophan ? I know it's an essential amino acid but there are still several others that haven't been discussed at all. Why is tryptophan receiving all the spotlight?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Its a convenient way for a certain vendor to bash his competitors' product. :lookout:


----------



## VolunteerK9

Just seems to me that an over abundance of tryptophan would make for some mighty lethargic bees.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

VolunteerK9 said:


> What am I missing or not understanding about the significance of tryptophan ?


VK9, post #44 a link from Randy Oliver.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Its a convenient way for a certain vendor to bash his competitors' product. :lookout:


Nice try, RS.


----------



## julysun

" I would suggest to anyone who feels they are not getting straight answers from Keith, call him. He'll talk to you till it's bedtime!" Barry

Please! This forum is about written post discussion. Phone chatter with an evasive salesman seems "more of the same" and not open to all posters.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Keith Jarrett said:


> Nice try, RS.


Keith, to start with, *I don't claim any expertise on analyzing/mixing/manufacturing sub.* But I do read most of your posts _carefully_. :lookout:

It is pretty clear to me that _some _level of tryptophan is in virtually every sub competing product. You choose this particular ingredient to make an issue of, perhaps because your sub has a slightly higher tryptophan  ratio than certain competitors product. That does not mean your product is better. It _may _be better, but the level of tryptophan is only one small part of the total product. You are choosing to focus on one issue.

I see it as much like dog food marketing. All the competing dog food products meet the minimum standards for a complete, nutritionally balanced dog food. But, manufacturer A adds twice as much of minor ingredient AB than his competitors. Then manufacturer B does something similar with ingredient XY. This way the A ads can proclaim "Twice as much AB as the others" And the B ads can do the same thing with ingredient XY. Every manufacturer can show his dog food is "better".

But in the end, _all _of those products will serve as good nutrition for a dog. And it is likely that all the commercial bee sub products will serve in a similar fashion. After all, bee sub is a _supplement_, not a complete _replacement _food.

Every marketer should _believe _in the superiority of his own product, but I do think that you would better serve your product marketing by being somewhat less aggressive in publicly attacking those you compete with. I don't expect you to publicly agree with this analysis. But this is my opinion, for whatever that is worth. :lookout:


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Rader Sidetrack said:


> but I do think that you would better serve your product marketing by being somewhat less aggressive in publicly attacking those you compete with. [/COLOR]:lookout:


I have tryied not to use names here like Ultra Bee, but, when I was accused of being secretive I then just started to spell it out in black & white. So, if we all look at ML 2013 cataloge (summer) page 48 we see the chart and recommended amino acid porofile by DeGroot . Where is Tryptophan????? That is misleading advertizing at best, not to mention Quoting only part of the profile from DeGroot. At the bottom of the chart it says " A complete amino acid profile" not with out knowing what Tryptopnan is. 

E-mail Randy Oliver see what his take is on this thread.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

julysun;987686evasive salesman .[/QUOTE said:


> What do you want to know?


----------



## julysun

What your brood photos show as to "Dry"


----------



## Mbeck

I don't think everyone understands the Degroot ratio as it is being explained. 
Tryptophan level needs to be established to determine amount of other amino acids needed to ensure total protein is availible.

Example 1% tryptophan means Valine needs to be at 4%. If tryptophan is at .5% Valine only needs to be 2%. The tryptophan in the Degroot recommendation is a limiting amino acid. Degroots work is giving the basic outline for a totally digestible protein. Valine needs to be present at at least 4x the rate of tryptophan, lysine 3x etc. 

If degroots work has merit this might be step one in mixing your own sub. Additional steps can adress the complexity of further improvements.


----------



## RAK

julysun said:


> What your brood photos show as to "Dry"


The brood in the photo shown previously is very dry. And if that dry larvae is the result of YOUR sub then your feeding something wrong. You might be able to stimulate SOME brood yet the bees wont be full of vitogellin because of an improper and unbalanced diet.

Funny how all these hobbiest beeks know more about pollen sub than an experienced commercial beekeeper who has been doing this for years and actually makes a living due to the quality of his product.

Them folks in CA have been feeding sub for YEARS. They must have learned something by now.


----------



## Barry

julysun said:


> Please! This forum is about written post discussion. Phone chatter with an evasive salesman seems "more of the same" and not open to all posters.


Then do your homework.


----------



## RAK

Teresa Szczêsna sampled 16 pollens in one study. Keiths Amino Acid profile is really close to what Teresa has from 16 different pollen sources. 

My suggestion to anyone that is making pollen is to sit down and do your math. Calculate everything out and make sure you not lacking any amino acids. If you are... You can buy most amino acids in Free form in a health store. 500 grams of Threonine is 20 bucks. Its really spendy but you could do it. 


http://www.jas.org.pl/jas_50_2_2006_9.pdf


----------



## max2

Wow! Not sure how I fell into this post!!
I don't have to feed where I keep bees, never have and the bees do OK.
With all these ingredients it sounds just about like feedlot cattle.
How did bees survive without all this feeding in the past??
I hope all your bees are happy


----------



## Keith Jarrett

max2 said:


> Wow! Not sure how I fell into this post!!


Ah, just keep your head low and stay under the bus you'll be fine mate.


----------



## davidsbees

Has Keith ever posted his amino acid profile? I must have missed it.


----------



## Saltybee

max2 said:


> Wow! Not sure how I fell into this post!!


Then you really want to avoid the treatment free forum.


----------



## WBVC

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Keith, to start with, *I don't claim any expertise on analyzing/mixing/manufacturing sub.* But I do read most of your posts _carefully_. :lookout:
> 
> It is pretty clear to me that _some _level of tryptophan is in virtually every sub competing product. You choose this particular ingredient to make an issue of, perhaps because your sub has a slightly higher tryptophan  ratio than certain competitors product. That does not mean your product is better. It _may _be better, but the level of tryptophan is only one small part of the total product. You are choosing to focus on one issue.
> 
> I see it as much like dog food marketing. All the competing dog food products meet the minimum standards for a complete, nutritionally balanced dog food. But, manufacturer A adds twice as much of minor ingredient AB than his competitors. Then manufacturer B does something similar with ingredient XY. This way the A ads can proclaim "Twice as much AB as the others" And the B ads can do the same thing with ingredient XY. Every manufacturer can show his dog food is "better".
> 
> But in the end, _all _of those products will serve as good nutrition for a dog. And it is likely that all the commercial bee sub products will serve in a similar fashion. After all, bee sub is a _supplement_, not a complete _replacement _food.
> 
> Every marketer should _believe _in the superiority of his own product, but I do think that you would better serve your product marketing by being somewhat less aggressive in publicly attacking those you compete with. I don't expect you to publicly agree with this analysis. But this is my opinion, for whatever that is worth. :lookout:


Basic minimalist dog foods that are tested and certified will have adequate nutrient levels to keep a "healthy" dog in normal activity alive...no more no less. If you are looking for more than that you have look farther....not at the bag but the research behind the bag. 

I can only surmise that for bee supplements (of which I have no knowledge beyond forums etc) 
The same holds true...except there seems to be no certified minimalist baseline....and given it seems most farmed bees are under some degree of disease and/or husbandry stress for those critters baseline needs would likely be inadequate.

Given that adequate foraging with minimum population manual tigon should bring in adequate nutrition I guess as long as what we give on top of that isn't too toxic and/or unbalanced the bees may manage despite us

Still looking for the optimum solutions by following with interest what others are doing...and noting successes and misses.

Thanks for all the info.

Has it been decided yet what protein % and pollen % and source one should look for in a bee feed supplement?


----------



## JSL

Here’s some other interesting information, or at least I think so. J
If you look at the second link in post # 135 for pollen analyses, specifically individual amino acid content and add all of the numbers up, I get 18.72g protein/100g sample or 18.72%. If you then apply Degroot’s ratio with Tryptophan as the “base” amino acid to provide the optimal ratio for the remaining amino acids, I calculate1.62g of protein are “unavailable”, so now we are down to 17.1g of available protein. If you look more closely, based on Degroot’s ratios, there are two limiting amino acids, Valine and Iso-Leucine. Valine is the most limiting and comes in at only 77.8% of the required, based on Degroot’s ratios. 77.8% of 17.1g available protein (based solely on Tryptophan) puts the available protein number at 13.3g per 100g sample or 13.3% protein.

You can see what it is important to look at all the numbers and this is only the protein aspect!

Joe


----------



## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> If you look at the second link in post # 135 for pollen analyses, specifically individual amino acid content and add all of the numbers up, I get 18.72g protein/100g sample or 18.72%. (based solely on Tryptophan) puts the available protein number at 13.3g per 100g sample or 13.3% protein.[/FONT]
> You can see what it is important to look at all the numbers and this is only the protein aspect![/COLOR][/FONT]


What Joe has done is the math, STOP we have a winner!  But to take this a couple steps futher, As Joe used my data in post # 135 that is one of hunderds I've done over the past 20 plus years. The one thing that stands out is it seems that all amino acids act different( utilized) when fed to bees, in other words we find that some of our proteins that we at Nutra Bee organic farmed by Nutra Bee seem to have better reponces than store bought of the same product.


----------



## JSL

Sooo, are you implying Degroot’s ratios are wrong?
It’s okay, I am not saying they are gospel when it comes to field application. In research, lab tests allow for more controlled conditions, but out in the field we must contend with many more variables.

Joe


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Keith Jarrett said:


> The one thing that stands out is it seems that all amino acids act different( utilized) when fed to bees, in other words we find that some of our proteins that we at Nutra Bee organic farmed by Nutra Bee seem to have better reponces than store bought of the same product.


Hmm, the exact meaning of that quote is unclear to me, but Keith appears to be saying that in the end, those lab analysis numbers are not the _be-all / end-all _when it comes choosing to the "best" sub product. :lookout:

Somewhat of a change from the single-minded focus on tryptophan numbers earlier in this thread!


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Would both of you STOP putting words in my mouth!

What I am saying is if you had two different ingredeints with the same percent of protein profile doesnt mean you will get the same responce out of the bees. I hope this makes since.


----------



## davidsbees

No new info here ( post #170)


----------



## Lauri

I'm not really sure how to comment on this thread. 
If I was making my living with hundreds of colonies, I certainly would be interested in taking the time to research the Internet and develop a protein sub that was nutritionally complete in every way.

Most people however, just want a company with a good rep to do the work of the formula development, mix it up, distribute it and take our MONEY from us lowly soles that just want to buy a bit of the darn stuff. 

I buy Purina horse feed because I trust the company to have it's formulas correct. My horses love it and it always smells fantastically fresh. I don't intend to analyze the nutritional breakdown of nutrients and micro nutrients that really mean nothing to me anyway without the knowledge of their application. I really don't have the time or interest. I see the results of this feed and I am very satisfied. 

All this bickering over who is right about formulas is getting old. Most of us average Joe's really only understand a pound of this and a pound of that. Add water, egg yolk, vinegar, sugar and anything else you might like to throw in just for fun.

So all you big important guys can do your math and argue over the results all you want. I'd guess not many at this point are reading this thread anymore. 

Ed at Mann Lake is the only one who has bothered to contact me with the nutritional breakdown of his product (Which is cost effective, easy to mix and they actually SELL it) offered me free samples and has Randy Oliver doing a test feed for in the field results.

Mann Lake still has my business. And to answer all the messages I have recieved, yes, I still like my original recipe that was posted in the beginning of this thread. I still use it and get excellent results.


----------



## Daniel Y

max2 said:


> How did bees survive without all this feeding in the past??
> I hope all your bees are happy


I suppose they survived just fine. I am not looking for mere survival.


----------



## Saltybee

Pollen varies by season and local. What pollen is available to the bees to fill in the pollen sub gaps is a combination of what is being brought in and what has been stored.
So field testing and experience shows that a California and a mid-west producer reach different conclusions of the final details of their formulas. I for one am shocked!
I thank you both for sharing with those making their own (and using commercial products). The difference between your individual formula's and the composition of the average Joes sources of raw materials makes the arguments kind of nonsense. My guess is you both spend considerable more time worrying about the consistancy of your own suppliers, more than each other's formula. Except when posting here.
I repeat, I do not think either one of you shares your knowledge with the idea that you might sell a few more #s of product.
You are probably discouraging more people from sub use of any kind with the bickering than you are converting people to your side. Just saying.


----------



## davidsbees

There is a big difference in where you source your supply's. in a article there was more weight gain with brewers yeast than distiller yeast ( 80g for brewers verses 2g for distiller ( ethanol)


----------



## RAK

davidsbees said:


> has keith ever posted his amino acid profile? I must have missed it.



alanine 1.10 arginine 0.96 asparagine ----
aspartic acid 2.10 cysteine .26 glutamine ----
glutamic acid 1.74 glycine .97 histidine .62
isolenucine .81 lecucine 1.44 lysine 1.31
methionine .44 phenylalanine .85 proline 2.38 
serine 1.12 theronine .94 tryptophan .26 
tyrosine .44 valine .98


----------



## RAK

max2 said:


> How did bees survive without all this feeding in the past??



In the past there wasn't a large demand for strong hives in February. In the past there were many more wild plants and weeds but now lots of the land is crops such as corn, cotton,etc with poor nutrition which is why we feed substitute.


----------



## max2

RAK said:


> In the past there wasn't a large demand for strong hives in February. In the past there were many more wild plants and weeds but now lots of the land is crops such as corn, cotton,etc with poor nutrition which is why we feed substitute.


Thanks RAK. The Almonds!!

But does everybody need to have strong hives in Feb? I assume not everybody goes to the Almonds. 
From the distance of Australia....I fully understand that things have changed but I just wonder what the outcome will be? Feedlot in cattle, broiler lots for chickens turned farmers into factory workers. Will the same happen to Apiarists in parts of the US?
Where are we going?


----------



## JSL

Lauri,

I realize there is a lot of information in this thread. It can be difficult to cover the full range between new beekeeper and the established commercial beekeeper, but there really is a lot of good info here.

Saltybee,
I find the quote in your signature line “I like people who agree with me, I learn from people who disagree” to be a little ironic. I like Keith and although we may disagree, I learn something when we interact.

Joe


----------



## Saltybee

Thanks Joe,
Good to hear. I truely have a hard time telling the difference between what seems to be banter between you two and the next post which seems anything but.

Tag line; I learn from disagreement, not so much from disagreeable.


----------



## RAK

Keith, should pollen sub be based off of pollen or beebread? I always thought bee bread should be 2% fat


----------



## Daniel Y

max2 said:


> Thanks RAK. The Almonds!!
> 
> But does everybody need to have strong hives in Feb? I assume not everybody goes to the Almonds.
> From the distance of Australia....I fully understand that things have changed but I just wonder what the outcome will be? Feedlot in cattle, broiler lots for chickens turned farmers into factory workers. Will the same happen to Apiarists in parts of the US?
> Where are we going?



I would ask myself. is it better to let the bees falter and then have to build them back up. Or to keep them strong and healthy.


----------



## Daniel Y

Keith Jarrett said:


> Mrch, that's the data which is good, but sometimes it seems this thread they only want pics.


And so, where are they. You say that like it's a bad thing. Cherry pick all you want. What I want to see is a photo that is an example of what you consider well fed larva. I really don't care about your entire apiary. It is not your apiary I am concerned with. I will then take your image of a cherry picked hand full of cells that you consider good and look at my Apiary. see it is my apiary and how it compares that I am concerned with.

Now if you are incapable of deciphering that fact from the early conversations of this thread. why should I find you reliable when it comes to deciphering information about nutrition. You simply warp things to your purpose. I cannot fathom what is difficult to understand about "Show us a picture of what you consider better". I don't really care what you think of pictures. it is what I think of pictures that causes me to want to see one. I don't really care how you think I will utilize the information I glean from such a photo. Obviously you don't find importance in a photo, I do. Your evaluation of how such information will be used is completely wrong by the way. You see it was asked that you sow a photo of a good frame of cells. I assume you will cherry pick your subject. I would assume you would cherry pick the very best example of well provisioned cells just for this very purpose. It is what you where asked for. Your example of good feeding. why would you then go take a picture of average? Don't you get the request?


----------



## Saltybee

Daniel Y,
Are you requesting a photo to increase your beekeeping knowledge, even if it is simply to see another method or theory which you may never adopt, or are you in rut ?
I have seen photos with more jelly than I have. I may not agree on how to increase my jelly, I may agree. Nothing to get excited about.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

_Daniel Y'_s comment about photos is in reference to a series of posts that started with post #18 earlier in this thread. You may find it useful to go back and read some earlier posts.


----------



## Waggle

I also would still like to see a side by side photo comparison of Lauri's "DRY" frame of larva with Keith's "HEALTHY" larva.


----------



## Saltybee

Read them the first time. More about the head butting than beekeeping to me. 
I did not see Lauri's photo's as dry myself. I have seen photos with more jelly. Pollen sub is one theory for improvement. Consider the theory or not. It is not a gauntlet.
Knock down, dragged on battle about he said, she said, I got you now, is for reality TV.


----------



## JSL

Daniel,

For post # 15, I went back and looked at the original pictures and comments on the “dry” larvae. I don’t have a picture to post for comparison, but agree the brood looks dry. The picture appears to be a nice freshly drawn comb with various aged larvae, but look closely at the larvae and the lack of glistening jelly surrounding them. Look at some of the younger larvae that do not fill the cells yet and how they are slumped to one side or the other, usually the bottom edge. The brood is not all bad, just some good subtle observations. Sometimes when the cluster expands too quickly, there is more brood than the amount of bees can really care for optimally. I assume that is the case here, as there is nice white wax and it looks like some syrup or nectar in the corners.

Joe


----------



## Saltybee

Joe, Is it a case of too much success too fast? I can see where queen rearing would have more impact than workers. The argument wether 300 short lived bees are better or worst than 100 long lived bees?


----------



## JSL

Saltybee,

It could be, but I assume the bees know what they are doing, or at least I hope so. I tend to see it with young splits when the weather is warmer and the bees can really stretch out that brood nest. When I worked with Africanized bees in Arizona, I commonly saw this in small swarms. Temps were generally warmer and they would push the brood nest to the limits.

Joe


----------



## Saltybee

I have been stealing brood to make nucs from the same hive which I graft from. I think I have been making it much harder for myself. Pushing too hard. Feeding and stealing more from the result. Need to stop that.


----------



## RAK

Saltybee said:


> Joe, Is it a case of too much success too fast? I can see where queen rearing would have more impact than workers. The argument wether 300 short lived bees are better or worst than 100 long lived bees?


The more bees the more brood can be raised which results in an increase of population which results in more nucs more honey more money.... Strong hives easily raise more brood than the bees they have. All that short lived and long lived theory doesn't even make sense and most nubs buy into it. 

If your worried about long/short lived bees then be worried about those mites draining out your winter bees.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

JSL said:


> but agree the brood looks dry. The picture appears to be a nice freshly drawn comb with various aged larvae, but look closely at the larvae and the lack of glistening jelly surrounding them. Look at some of the younger larvae that do not fill the cells yet and how they are slumped to one side or the other, usually the bottom edge. Joe


Becareful, Becareful here Joe...... lol I got hammered for saying the same thing. I know you arent saying this to offend anyone your just speaking the truth as you see it, like I was. It's not always easy to speak the truth when you know it's not going to be popular thing to say. But I have great respect for those that do. 

P.S. I will save you a spot underneath the bus.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Keith Jarrett said:


> Becareful, Becareful here Joe...... lol I got hammered for saying the same thing.


Keith, you got asked for more information on your analysis of Lauri's photo, and asked to post a similar picture for comparison/discussion purposes.

It was _after _that, when you made _vague _references to Youtube videos and offered no comparison photos, and did not explain your "_dry_" comment in better detail, that you got "_hammered_" as you so eloquently put it. :lookout:


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Keith, you got asked for more information on your analysis of Lauri's photo, and asked to post a similar picture for comparison/discussion purposes.


RS, do you have any Ideal who you are talking too .... Do you think I can just go out my back yard and snap a picture , Do you understand that it's sub time for me and I have semi's back up for days, Not to mention thousand's of hives in muti-states do you understand that my day starts at 3:00 am SEVEN days a week right now. NO, by your remarks you have made I didn't think so. Ask around this fourm many know me well.... you EVER plan on walking in my shoes you best eat your Wheaties!


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Keith, apparently you are not so busy that you still have time to read Beesource, make a critical remark about a member's post and then not explain your remark when asked.

You can post anything you like (within forum rules), but when you make controversial statements and then don't back them up, you shouldn't be surprised that some forum members question your motives. Whether you are "_too busy_" or not isn't the point.

I have not bought any sub from your competitors, and may not ever. I have no axe to grind. But as I said earlier, when you adopt an aggressive stance like you seem to do regularly, you really shouldn't be surprised when you get pushback. I can't believe I am the first person to suggest this to you.


----------



## Mbeck

I've got a few hives in the back yard I can snap a photo of and the rest are all in this state, problem is I don't have any Nutra-Bee. If I it and had enough to really pile it on, I'd post some photos after a couple feedings. It probably wouldn't work that well here, our bees don't have all the down time Keith's bees do.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Keith, apparently you are not so busy that you still have time to read Beesource, make a critical remark about a member's post and then not explain your remark when asked..


RS, you just can't handel the TRUTH! reading beesource on a lap top and taking a pics from hives that are 400 miles away are two different things. Make "critical remarks" sorry again, it's the TRUTH. explain.... I did, dry. Remember Lauri asked me to chime in. Becareful what you ask for from Keith.... you may just get the hard cold TRUTH.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> Becareful what you ask for from Keith.... you may just get the hard cold TRUTH.

So when you first made that "bone head" remark, was that the truth? Or was it when you later suggested that you didn't really mean it? 

Allow me to suggest that you might get _less flack_ if you write a reply to a post you disagree with, then _let it sit a while _before you actually push the "Post" button. Just a thought.


----------



## RAK

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Keith, you got asked for more information on your analysis of Lauri's photo, and asked to post a similar picture for comparison/discussion purposes.
> 
> It was _after _that, when you made _vague _references to Youtube videos and offered no comparison photos, and did not explain your "_dry_" comment in better detail, that you got "_hammered_" as you so eloquently put it. :lookout:


Actually Keith stated that 



Keith Jarrett said:


> RS, I'm not feeding yet so I don't have a close pics of brood to show you, I could only show the results of sub feeding, the pics I took were in Jan-Feb that the true results of fall-winter feeding.


RS is that answer not clear enough?? You obviously do not know what commercial beekeeping is and how hard it is to take a pic when every minute is worth lots.


----------



## RAK

Keith Jarrett said:


> you EVER plan on walking in my shoes you best eat your Wheaties!


:thumbsup:


Rader Sidetrack said:


> Keith, apparently you are not so busy that you still have time to read Beesource.


You should be glad there are still experts such as Mr. Jarret that go on this forum and teach yall a lesson or two on beekeeping. If you actually pay attention then you could learn A LOT.


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm

@Keith Jarrett:

I was just wondering where to buy Nutra-Bee? I can't seem to find it on any of the usual suppliers' sites, or am I just blind, as usual? (And I apologize in advance if this has already been asked and answered!)

Thanks.

Rusty


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> You obviously do not know what commercial beekeeping is and how hard it is to take a pic when every minute is worth lots.

The context that Keith made his analysis of Lauri's photo was not, IMO, as a commercial beekeeper. I will bet that most readers saw Keith's comment in the context of Keith being the owner/chief marketing officer of Nutra-Bee, a sub producer. His signature line on every post clearly promotes Nutra-Bee. Beekeeper vs sub manufacturer are two _significantly _different roles.

Keith was critiquing a sub recipe. As I said earlier, If Keith chooses to post _aggressive _comments about sub recipes or sub competitors, he should expect to get flack when those comments are not carefully explained. Go back and read the relevant portion of the thread. You can clearly see that Keith was not prepared to explain/document his critique, and seemed surprised when asked to do so.


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## Saltybee

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> @Keith Jarrett:
> 
> I was just wondering where to buy Nutra-Bee?


I think it is readily available in California. That may change as soon as Keith gets caught up. lol


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## Rusty Hills Farm

Saltybee said:


> I think it is readily available in California. That may change as soon as Keith gets caught up. lol


Thanks, Salty! Since I am nowhere near California, I guess I won't be finding it any time soon. Ah, well. It *was* a good idea.



Rusty


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## RAK

Rader Sidetrack said:


> >
> 
> The context that Keith made his analysis of Lauri's photo was not, IMO, as a commercial beekeeper. I will bet that most readers saw Keith's comment in the context of Keith being the owner/chief marketing officer of Nutra-Bee, a sub producer. His signature line on every post clearly promotes Nutra-Bee. Beekeeper vs sub manufacturer are two _significantly _different roles.



You are making poor assumptions. Most people on this forum know that Keith is a reputable commercial beekeeper.




Rader Sidetrack said:


> >
> Keith was critiquing a sub recipe. As I said earlier, If Keith chooses to post _aggressive _comments about sub recipes or sub competitors...




I was following this thread and did not see any aggressive comments. Keith posted replies on how to make the sub more nutritional and apparently that offended you so you start throwing unnecessary comments.


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## Keith Jarrett

Rader Sidetrack said:


> The context that Keith made his analysis of Lauri's photo was not, IMO, as a commercial beekeeper. I will bet that most readers saw Keith's comment in the context of Keith being the owner/chief marketing officer of Nutra-Bee, a sub producer. His signature line on every post clearly promotes Nutra-Bee.


Analyis of Lauri photo, dry........
I'm sorry that creates to much hoopla.

I also find it funny I get thrown under the bus for only selling to the big boys( by the pallet) than get accused of conflict of interest on beesource from the small boys. Surley can't win around here. lol


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## Mbeck

Keith Jarrett said:


> Surley can't win around here. lol


If you want to be a beesource winner...

Post the secret recipe
No fancy, hard to get ingredients and it should be under $.25 per pound packed with bioflavonoids and gluten free. You want us to take you seriously and you don't even have a Nutra-Bee pollen sub girl of the month calendar.


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## Lauri

I hear that little voice that is saying 'Don't post' 
But here is my entry for November for the Nutra Bee Calendar...A good display of Full spectrum amino acids










(If this is too graphic for viewing, let me know and I'll remove it. Don't want to offend anyone)


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## Mbeck

More math
Venison profile......
Tryptophan 0.5g	-
Threonine 2.3g	-
Isoleucine 2.6g	-
Leucine 4.6g	-
Lysine 4.9g	-
Methionine 1.4g	-
Cystine 0.6g	-
Phenylalanine 2.3g	-
Tyrosine 1.9g	-
Valine 2.9g	-
Arginine 3.6g	-
Histidine 1.8g	

Really, you hunt with a back tension release? Bit of OCD mixed with your overachiever tendencies?


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## Lauri

Naw, that's the 'Just Cuz' Carter release. Thumb trigger. I can punch that baby any time I want.


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## WBVC

Keith Jarrett said:


> RS, do you have any Ideal who you are talking too ....!


 From your thread post..someone who knows a lot about bees..and certainly someone I can benefit from following most posts. I, and likely others, have no idea what is good jelly around a larva and what is a dry one. When your days become more manageable I hope you will revisit this thread and post a dry example next to a good example.

Thanks so much...glad I don't have to start at 3 AM


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## CLICKBANGBANG

Unless there is the info for a source where I can get single tubs of Nutra Bee this coming spring, I'm not reading through this 11 pages of cattle patty. I didn't get replies to my emails and IMs sent this last spring when I was trying to buy Nutra Bee. Until it comes available in small orders, the bees are taking Bee Pro just fine.


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## JRG13

Not graphic enough Lauri, I don't see any bites taken out of that heart.


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## shinbone

Lol. This thread is little more than some overblown egos arguing how many angles can dance on the head of pin. Classic Internet gibberish.


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## Lauri

I ate it alright, the best part of the deer. But slice it thin, shake in Progresso Italian crumbs and fry in olive oil first...

I did try a bite of a fresh Elk liver out in the field, though. It was tastless and tough. A very small bite I should add.

Sorry to get offf topic, Barry. Won't happen again.


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## camero7

shinbone said:


> Lol. This thread is little more than some overblown egos arguing how many angles can dance on the head of pin. Classic Internet gibberish.


I found this thread very helpful. Lots of good info here. I don't make my own subs at this point but I learned a lot of what to look for. I'm on the east coast and can't access Keith's product. But I find him quite helpful if you're willing to dig a little, same for Joe and their interchange was very interesting to me. I wouldn't disclose my formula if I were Keith or Joe either. Lots of study, experimentation and tweaking to get where they are with their products. Those who expect them to disclose their formulas are dreaming or very poor business people. Little beekeepers are more forthcoming but they don't make part of their income from sales. I have found both Keith and Joe very helpful in the past when I've reached out to them. No "overblown egos" there. Just a hell of a lot of knowledge that people should shut up and listen to IMO.


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## Keith Jarrett

camero7 said:


> But I find him quite helpful if you're willing to dig a little, same for Joe and their interchange was very interesting to me.


Thanks for the kind words Camero7, you perrty much nailed what I was attempting to do. I am knowed for being a little short & to the point, it's not meant to be rude, it's just who I am. 

My vision was to inform folks on what to look for & how to do some simple math, for either making or buying sub. I hope some keepers here now are a little better informed to make better chioces going foward with pollen sub feeding.
P.S. knowledge is power.


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## Saltybee

Taste test results on a single hive; mine 2o% soy,20% brewers, 60% sugar for dry mix, little egg yolk, corn oil and veg oil. one patty with apple cider vinegar one without. Slight perference for the with vinegar.
Nutr -bee mixed with 60% added sugar. Visably finer ground than mine. Much greater consumption, easy ten times more. Nutra -bee is the only brand I 've tried so I have no other data.

Results for a one hive, 3 day consumption test. Mine is not even a dog food to steak comparison in the eyes of the bees.

Anyone else done a same hive comparison with different subs.


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## djei5

I really am blown away by this post, tons of great information from what has to be over a combined century of knowledge, Lauri, incredible pics and I'm taking your recipe to heart. Keith, I enjoy your videos and pay close attention to what you say in the forums, I am amazed by your operation. That being said; post a flipping picture of wet brood. There is no way a guy with your experience and products has NOT taken pics of his brood...good God!


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## Specialkayme

I can't really say I found this thread educational. Sorry.

In the end, amino acids are important, and so is protein content and fat content. Some amino acids will cause limiting factors. How do you tell which one is limiting? How do you tell the protein content? Either take the producer's word on the facts and do some math, or order an expensive test. Too much work for me. I suspect most hobby beekeepers are in the same boat. If I had 500 colonies to feed and dropped a few tens of thousands on feed per year, that might be a different story. 

Each producer spends plenty of money on research to make their formula better. I'll gladly pay them for that, rather than do my own "research" all over again. 

As far as making my own (from scratch), I'll follow someone else's formula, then maybe make slight changes, but if it involves starting from total scratch to calculate the composition of amino acids, I'm better off purchasing a commercial product and following their instructions, then compare with a competitor and see which one gets consumed faster.

Thanks for the formula Lauri. I might end up trying it this year. Might end up trying Randy Oliver's too. But if the formula isn't shared, I'm not likely to create my own.


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## Andrew Dewey

I am feeding Ultra Bee now to all colonies without honey supers. Why? We are in a great pollen flow right now and the hives with supers are packing it in. So I inspected the colonies that don't have honey supers. Some of them have no stores - neither nectar or pollen. And so the syrup bucket and UB went to them. Others don't have as much pollen as I'd like them to have this time of year - thinking about food for baby bees next spring. I have no clue as to if the UB is consumed now or stored. I don't really care so long as I have healthy winter bees and adequate pollen for next spring. What I am finding is that colonies whose populations are on the low side are not gathering much nectar/pollen. An unintended consequence to my stealing brood six weeks ago to beef up my production colonies? Hmmmm. The colonies that are short pollen are all over the UB.


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## Stephenpbird

I can't find pollen supplement here in Germany, so this thread has been VERY educational for me. I have made up a batch and fed it to the bees. A five frame nuc ate 1 pound in five days, if this carries on it will cost me a fortune.


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## KevinR

Maybe I missed it in the 12 pages of back and forth comments.

Was there "formula" that was some what agreed upon? I.f. 50 lbs of brewers year, x lbs of of soy flour, x cups of oil(what type), x lbs of sugar, and what misc vitamins....

If there wasn't. Is there a agreed upon additions that need to be made to Ultra Bee? i.e. Ground oats etc....

Finally, does anyone have a reasonable priced list of soy flour/yeast providers in 50lb bags?

Thanks,


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## Barry

KevinR said:


> Was there "formula" that was some what agreed upon?


Dream on! Agree, on Beesource?!


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## Rader Sidetrack

> Was there "formula" that ... 

Did you see _Lauri's _recipe in post #15?


> that  was some what agreed upon?

Not precisely!  :lookout:That is why the thread has 220+ posts!


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## KevinR

Well.... Let me rephrase that to say "generally accepted"..... 

Realistically, I can dump ultra bee in a pot of sugar sugar water until it looks like thick peanut butter then slap in on the hive. But "should" I is the question.

But more the point for me, in the South... I'll probably be making sugar blocks vs patties. Since SHB have a harder time dealing with them. That or I need to make an automated extruder that squirts out a little patty at at time.

FYI, I mark this as a timestamped patent for any of you idea grubbers out there.. ((LOL))


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## Lauri

Since you mentioned it, here is a recipe I came up with for _fortified _sugar bricks. I don't think it was disputed too much.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290641-My-recipe-method-for-sugar-blocks


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## Specialkayme

KevinR said:


> Well.... Let me rephrase that to say "generally accepted".....


Right . . . 

Is there anything that's "generally accepted" in beekeeping? Let alone pollen patty recipies, one of the most closely guarded secrets of any beekeeping operation (with the exception of Lauri and Randy Oliver).



KevinR said:


> But more the point for me, in the South... I'll probably be making sugar blocks vs patties. Since SHB have a harder time dealing with them.


I've never had SHB issues with feeding pollen patties to well populated hives before April 1. After that the nest starts to spread out a little, and can have some difficulties fighting off SHB. At least, what I've seen.

I've slapped on a 2 lb patty on the top bars of a hive containing 4 frames of brood in the end of February without any issues.


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## JRG13

Special kind of hit on it, you need to look at amino acids in two contexts. You need to look at the essential amino acids bees require and the amino acids they're mRNA codes for when producing proteins. Many proteins have amino acids that can be interchangeable so optimizing amino acid availability can help if you know which amino acids are preferred. tRNA's can also play a role in protein expression but I don't believe diet can influence those populations.


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## Oregonbeeman

Lauri if you are still looking for a source for brewers yeast you might try tpi. They are a feed supplement supplier in oregon and washington. They sell a very large variety of protein including dried brewers yeast at whole sale prices. That's where I get my yeast from in 50 lb bags.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Here is the website for TPI. Manufacturing is in Madera CA, and with offices in Hubbard OR (between Portland and Salem) and in Twin Falls ID.

They seem to have a strong emphasis on _lot tracking_.


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## rweaver7777

camero7 said:


> But I find him quite helpful if you're willing to dig a little, same for Joe and their interchange was very interesting to me.


I came here to look up Lauri's pollen patty recipe, but couldn't help responding to what I see on this older thread.

I'm certainly glad Keith is doing well in his business. But just imagine, Keith, if you were a good salesman, how much more business you'd get. A good salesman doesn't expect his customers to "dig". A good saleman will bend over backward to show how his product is better, but all I hear from you on this thread is to "go here" or "go there" to read what someone else has posted. A good salesman makes it easy for a potential customer to make a decision. You may be the best guy on the phone and in person, but what comes across online is laziness (to provide the requested pictures or information) and as a result, condescension. Keith, you should either learn how to respond online properly as a salesman, or outsource responding on this forum to some employee who does know how.

If you get frustrated answering the same questions over and over, put up a web page which answers those questions, then refer people to the web page and the answer. But please don't tell them to go "look at my site". Give them a hyperlink and make it easy. I will assure you that if you do this, you'll get much less pushback from people on this forum, who can do great word-of-mouth advertising FOR YOU if your product stacks up to the competition and you make their lives easy.


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## Keith Jarrett

Yikes!!! lol


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## rweaver7777

Keith Jarrett said:


> Yikes!!! lol


Yes, I think upon re-reading that I came across quite harsh and I sincerely apologize. But please take the advice to heart if you can. I truly believe your business could be much better.


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## beesohappy

Wow if that's dry I'd really like to see wet. I'm in no way taking sides I'm just really interested in bettering my bees. A buddy of mine was telling me that we should be putting on patties and I was telling that I'd really like to take the money up to Kieth and have a chance to talk shop with you and learn a couple things and pick up sub at the same time.


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