# Cleo Hogan trapout from a tree



## DLMKA

The Water Department in Creve Coeur, IL found this bee tree when removing some brush to fix a broken water main. In doing so they opened the direct flight bath for the bees across a school ground and ball field. Lots of people walk down that path too so they wanted the bees out to negate their liability. I was going to do a cone trap-out but ran across the Cleo Hogan method and decided to give that a try, this is my first trap-out.

The tree as I found it. Lots of activity with multiple entrances.









After prepping the tree and closing up all the entrances but one main one. I left the tree in this condition for a week to get the bees used to only having one entrance. I ended up filling the cavity at the base of the tree with cement after the bees tunneled out through it.









The female adapter fixed and sealed up on the tree. Lots of scrap lumber and silicone caulk to get everything to seal. Left it this way for 2 days before putting the box in place.









Side view of the set-up.









Bees using the tunnel after a day.









Closed the tunnel leaving just the mesh cone as an escape from the tree.









After 10 or so hours. Looks like it's working. I observed for a while last night and didn't see any bees able to get back through the cone into the tree but there is still a pretty steady flow of bees coming out. I have seen bees haul dead drones out so they shouldn't be getting too backed up with junk on the inside.


----------



## CaBees

Wow, lots of work! It looks like you did a great job with it too! Will you try to requeen them and keep them? Will you be closing up the entrance completely at the end? How long will you keep the trap there? What is all over the top of the 2nd frame from the right? (the white stuff)?


----------



## DLMKA

CaBees said:


> Wow, lots of work! It looks like you did a great job with it too! Will you try to requeen them and keep them? Will you be closing up the entrance completely at the end? How long will you keep the trap there? What is all over the top of the 2nd frame from the right? (the white stuff)?


The second frame is a plastic frame from another hive that had eggs and day old larvae. According to Cleo Hogan that is supposed to draw the queen from the tree to investigate who's been laying eggs in her hive. If I get the queen no need to requeen, I actually would really like the genetics from this colony. They're really calm and easy to work with.

The city is planning on cutting the tree down after I'm done. They couldn't do it with bees in it because the cavity in the tree goes to or possibly below ground level. Should take 5-6 weeks to get all the bees from the tree.


----------



## CaBees

Have you done this before? I know brood is suppose to draw the queen but also read there is very little chance of it actually working. I hope you get her and look forward to your updates.


----------



## DLMKA

even if I don't get her the workers in the hive body will make a ton of honey while they're waiting. I have a weak hive that can use an infusion of workers and I'll probably start a 5-frame nuc off the rest.


----------



## westernbeekeeper

Hey DLMKA, keep us updated! This is interesting, and you've done an excellent job.


----------



## westernbeekeeper

Hey DLMKA, keep us updated! This is interesting and you have done and excellent job.


----------



## Lburou

Subscribed. You are making it look easy!


----------



## FreyaFL

Fascinating! Please do keep us updated.


----------



## DLMKA

Thanks all. I am getting paid by the city for this one, so I felt it best to try to not cobble too much stuff together from scrap wood. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEC41pJScHQ&sns=fb


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

The only thing I would have done differently, is not install the funnel for a couple days after the introduction of the unsealed brood. I don't think I have ever had a queen come into the box after the funnel has been activated.

I leave the end of the tunnel open until I either get the queen, or get enough bees to take and make a new colony. Then trap again to get her.

CaBees...There is a really good chance of getting her from a tree. Once they start using it for a brood chamber she will come into the trap and lay eggs just like she will go up in a regular hive. She is just going horizontal, rather than verticle. The trap is an integral, sealed part of her home. 

Best trapping is early Spring when the queen is looking for any available brood comb to lay in. As she starts shutting down for Summer and Fall it becomes more difficult to get her to come out to use the brood box in the trap. I have received lots of e-mails from Beesource members who have been successful in getting the queen this year. 

Good luck to you,

cchoganjr


----------



## DLMKA

My first concern is getting the bees out of the tree, that's what the city is paying for. Getting the queen and her genetics would be icing on the cake. Would it be too late to open up the tunnel again and place another open brood frame to attract the queen out? Since she isn't leaving her pheromones on the external hive body would those bees raise a new queen if they were given another frame of eggs? I would imagine the majority are starting realize they're queenless or would the trickle of bees still coming from the tree kill any new queen?


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

No, never too late. Remove your first start, depending on the age of your unsealed brood when you put it in the trap, and how long it has been in the trap before you moved it, it is possible for them to make a queen from that frame. If it is past 6 days the unsealed brood would be capped, and they could not make a queen from it, so an additional frame would be required.

The bees in the trap, have on more than one occasion, raised a queen from the unsealed brood I gave them. See above, everything has to happen in six days or less because more than that and they will cap the brood. Then there is no viable egg to make a queen from.

The trickle from the tree would, by this time, most likely be your nurse bees. Field bees would have been caught first. Nurse bees will not normally fight with other bees, and other bees will not normally attack nurse bees. So it is unlikely that they would harm the queen in the trap.

Hope this helps.

cchoganjr


----------



## CaBees

What is the clear sealer you are using around the funnel and on the tree?

I really like how you used wire for the funnel, my screening is too flimsy.

I just can't get to my current trap to put in brood, it is secured fromthe top so I can't remove the top and switch out frames. But I may try this with one of their 'bee tree's that they really don't want bees in anymore. 

I have to check my weak hive which was combined swarms and see if they were able to raise a queen before I remove my trap and combine what I have.... it won't be 33 days until 6/16 so not this weekend....

Please keep your pictures / progress coming!


----------



## DLMKA

I used silicone caulk, it's not the cheapest stuff in the world but the bees can't chew through it. I just used the same #8 hardware cloth as I use for SBB for the funnel. I hope to use this box many times so I just tried to do it right the first time. I plan on updating with more pictures as it progresses but I can't visibly see an increase in the number of bees in the hive body over the past 2 days. I am sure there ARE more, it's just harder to tell a difference. I've been trapping since Monday morning so I'm on day 4+. I'm just going to ignore them now for a few days. I have a few people that live in the area keeping an eye on things watching for vandalism, etc and they have my phone number if something is wrong.

So far, the only downside I see to this method is that you can't watch the bees coming from the tree and observe without opening the top. I don't THINK they've figured out how to get back in but I don't KNOW and can't really watch for too long without them starting to get a little anxious about being exposed. I'll give them another frame of eggs next time I go and see if they'll raise a queen off it.


----------



## wildforager

cool, I'll be keeping an eye on your progress!


----------



## DLMKA

Went to check on them yesterday and saw a small cluster of bees on the tree. Closer investigation revealed they had chewewd a hole just big enough for a single worker to get in/out. Sealed it back up with more silicone, hopefully that will be the end of it.


----------



## shannonswyatt

What about putting a small plexiglas window with a cover installed on the adapter that would allow you to peak in too see if there are still bees moving into the hive body? You wouldn't be able to see the cone, but you could use it to gauge the activity of the bees moving out. That or putting an observation window on the hive body that let you see the cone. Too late to do it now but after this job you could modify your setup.


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

It would be relatively easy to cut out a portion of one side piece and install a piece of plexiglass so you could view inside the trap any time you wanted to. I would fix it so it so it could be covered when not viewing. Bees don't like the light, and might spend a lot of time on the glass trying to get out through the glass. After a while, they would adjust, just like they eventually do in an observation hive.

You could also put a plexiglass window in the transition, but would have to have the two transitions further apart so the window would not be where the two transitions overlap. Keep in mind to keep the trap as close to the feral brood nest as possible if you want to get the queen to come out into the trap.

Again, if you are wanting to get the queen you would need to leave the screen cone off, and just let the bees come and go, thinking this is just another chamber of their hive. The brood you install will bring the queen into the trap to investigate, and then start laying in the trap. I don't think I have ever had a queen come through a screen cone, or the plastic conical bee escapes that I use in the traps. I only close off the tunnel, and activate the funnel, when i am ready to eliminate the colony, after getting the queen.

Let us know how you do. Love the photos.

cchoganjr


----------



## CaBees

I checked my trap out too (high in the oak tree) and same thing! They had gotten one single bee sized hole and were all in the tree. The good news is the homeowner is getting really interested in bees and willing to keep on trying. So I changed up the process but don't want to hi-jack this thread and will post it on my own. I love the window idea and when this is over will modify mine...

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?270252-swarm-in-a-screech-owl-tree


----------



## DLMKA

Wanted to post an update. The colony has been removed sucessfully from the tree. I could have taken the trap off two weeks ago but I was going on vacation for a week and wanted the bees in the box to provide some protection against wax moths, etc. I took the trap off Monday and moved the remaining bees to the beeyard and shook them out on the ground away from the hives. They had developed a laying worker so I figured they'd divide themselves between the queenright hives. I moved one of the hives that I took from the tree back to rob out any remaining stores from the tree. I've never seen so much activity! I think I need to super the hive because it's gaining weight pretty rapidly and I have no idea how much honey is in the tree. I'll be sending the bill later this week for 5 hours time, mileage, and $60 in materials.


----------



## samoadc

Years ago I remember reading that when the one day egg is available the bees can feed the larva what is called Royal Jelly and that is what changes the egg into developing into a queen rather than just another female worker. As the queen is larger they also have to reconstruct the comb cell. You could look at the frame and see if a larger cell or cells are present. If more than one queen being raised I have read that the first out will soon kill the others.


----------



## samoadc

Most interesting, especially appreciated the photos. Thanks everyone for sharing these interesting bits of information.


----------



## mmmooretx

Darn clever implementation! Thanks for sharing!

Cleo thank you for forwarding the files to my PM. It helped a lot for the detailed implementation. Going to have to look into making a setup!


----------



## Stan The Bee Man

Great job...I just talked to Cleo. Nice guy!~ On your inside box. You put your screen cone going up. Is that the best way or does it matter? Cant wait to build mine and try it. great post! thanks!--stan


----------



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Stan The Bee Man
If you are using a screen cone it does not matter which way the exit is pointed. If you use the conical bee escape, it needs to be mounted on the bottom of the tunnel and point down, so bees cannot land on it, and then walk back into the tunnel and back to the original colony. Conical bee escapes are made of plastic and are slick.

My material shows the conical bee escape, but, I actually prefer to use the screen cone.

cchoganjr


----------



## Stan The Bee Man

Question on your cone inside the brood box. I know Cleo photos has the plastic red conical bee escape but in talking with him he does prefer the witches hat cone like you have in insert box. The question is should it be pointed down on bottom? this would avoid them from landing on it pointed up...and just walking up and crawling in small par of cone right?? I don't know, just asking? thanks!


----------



## Stan The Bee Man

Thanks - I ordered some of the brushy mt pre-made screen cones but sounds like I need to make a bigger one. And I would still mount it on bottom point it down on small insert box inside brood box - right?


----------



## Stan The Bee Man

In looking at your photos...do you have one box fixed to the tree which makes a FEMALE and then another small box that fits into entrance and into nuc? Or is it just one piece that fits into nuc? I think Cleo plan has 1 female box that fits to tree then another small box that fits into female at tree and into nuc....so 3 total boxes. .right? --thanks


----------



## Stan The Bee Man

Worked on the Cleo trapout box. Cant wait to try it. I even put a side viewing glass on side of the deep. I also was able to find the small screen cones to fit on second box that slides into deep from tree box. My main question is after I leave entry box to tree for day or two then attach second box that fits into custom deep. I put a frame of eggs, I then let the bees come and go through normal front entrance of deep. I am a bit confused as I want to catch the queen. I know that when I am ready to trap I will seal the door to inner box and then bees will go through small screen cone pointed down. So I close front entrance of deep and wait a day or two? How will I know that the queen is in there. I know she will not come through cone so i guess she has to be in there before I close end of inner trap door. Am I supposed to check to make sure she is in there before closing inner door? thanks!!!


----------

