# Saskatraz....any feedback?



## Brad Bee

I got some late in our main flow. Not normally in time to really build up without feed. We've gotten an excessive amount of rain in the past 3 weeks (over 12") and the white clover is still blooming. They are building up well. Wall to wall brood patterns.


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## JustKrispy

Checked my 3saskatraz today. They are looking really good. Slab brood.


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## kaizen

what the heck is a saskatraz? bred on Alcatraz?


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## Aroc

kaizen said:


> what the heck is a saskatraz? bred on Alcatraz?


:thumbsup:

Canada, similar to a Carni with some VSH qualities........supposedly


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## PeterP

http://www.saskatraz.com/

The apiary where the breeding originally took place was in SASKatchewan and was isolated like alcATRAZ hence Saskatraz....


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## Tenbears

I got some to try the breed on April 22, 17 although they are very fast to grow the hive with two deeps and a medium full of bees. They have yet to bring in any approachable honey stores. My Italian, as well as my Pennsylvania survivor mutts are on their second super full of honey. As far as I am concerned the jury is still out. However, my experience tells me that if this many bees cannot find nectar then they are too high maintenance for me. I will certainly give them ample time to prove themselves. But at this stage I am doubtful. I will offer a better assessment next year at this time,


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## Clayton Huestis

Tenbears, are these the hybrid saskatraz?


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## Tenbears

Yes, the queens are pure but offspring are hybrid. At $500,00 For a closed mated breeder queen starting an apiary with them would be rather expensive. If the hybrids work out though, I will buy a couple to raise hybrids queens.


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## Brad Bee

It shouldn't be hard, or at least I'm going to approach it that way, to set up drone saturation colonies around my queen mating area next year and somewhat "control" my mating here. I will use the Saskatraz queens as drone mothers. I have spots picked out from 3/8-3/4 mile to put the hives in a circle around my home yard. I hope to get rid of the Italian influence of the purchased Saskatraz queens and incoorporate the Sak genes into "my" queen line. 

One thing I can add about the Sak bees is that they are very docile so far, while viewing from outside the hive. One overly strong nuc was pretty testy when I inspected it this past weekend, but they are swarming strength right now. I'm going to break them down this weekend.


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## Juhani Lunden

PeterP said:


> http://www.saskatraz.com/


from The Saskatraz hybrid project 2015 :
"Colonies are treated for varroa about 30 days prior to introducing Saskatraz queens. Treatments in 2015 were in August with Apivar strips. "

whops, this is not TF forum...

interesting though...

"In summary, this study employed a genome-wide DNA microarray to analyse differential gene expression at two different developmental stages of varroa-tolerant and
varroa-susceptible honey bee colony phenotypes selected from a Canadian breeding programme. Comparison of the microarray expression proﬁles revealed that nearly 300 genes were differentially expressed between the two extreme bee colonies in response to mite infestation. More differentially expressed genes were found at the pupa stage than at the adult stage, indicating that pupae are more responsive to varroa parasitism than adult bees. More differentially expressed genes were identiﬁed when comparing colonies than when comparing responses to mite infestation, regardless of the developmental stage. According to their molecular functions, the differentially expressed genes are classiﬁed into groups that are involved in olfactory signal transduction, detoxiﬁcation processes, and protein and lipid metabolism as well as exoskeleton formation, implying that these processes may be critically involved in the defensive mechanisms of honey bees against varroa mite parasitism."


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## Clayton Huestis

Anyone else have any feed back on the saskatraz stock?


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## clyderoad

Clayton Huestis said:


> Anyone else have any feed back on the saskatraz stock?


If I'm not mistaken member Ian has worked with them. Brought a bunch into his operation.
Mike Palmer has/had some as well.


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## JRG13

Heard some people love the hybrids they're getting from Olivarez, but I thought there were some mumbling on beesource or maybe some of the FB groups they weren't performing well this year or as expected. I was hoping to try some but guy never got back to me. Tenbears, didn't know anyone was offering breeders, where'd you hear that from?


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## AstroBee

JRG13 said:


> Tenbears, didn't know anyone was offering breeders, where'd you hear that from?


Can't say for sure, but this is the likely source:

http://www.saskatraz.com/pages/availability.htm

I'm very interested in the project, but have not tried any of these queens. I contacted Albert J. Robertson in the winter of 2016, but never got a reply.


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## lharder

I had the hybrids. Their daughters had very good hygienic behaviour. Most of my bees are derived from this stock and seem to be performing better with each generation. Some have problems with chalkbrood. But I am gradually requeening the problem queens. I have several granddaughters going into winter with nice clusters their second year tf. I'm kinda optimistic that I'll have several good 2 winter survivors to make queens from next year.


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## beepro

So how are their temperament? I've read here that they are a 
bit testy to keep?


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## Michael Palmer

clyderoad said:


> If I'm not mistaken member ....Mike Palmer has/had some as well.


I received 25 from Albert Robertson...the developer in Saskatchewan. Got them late in the season, so we requeened production colonies with them. Too late in the season to evaluate their performance. Will know more come May.


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## Clayton Huestis

MP how did there winter population shape up?


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## Cuttingedgelandinc

Michael Palmer said:


> I received 25 from Albert Robertson...the developer in Saskatchewan. Got them late in the season, so we requeened production colonies with them. Too late in the season to evaluate their performance. Will know more come May.


Mike, It is my understanding that these were bred for pollinating? Any word on that?


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## Michael Palmer

Clayton Huestis said:


> MP how did there winter population shape up?


Seemed normal.


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## Michael Palmer

Cuttingedgelandinc said:


> Mike, It is my understanding that these were bred for pollinating? Any word on that?


Not heard that. His presentation focused on high honey production and low DWV.


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## grozzie2

Cuttingedgelandinc said:


> Mike, It is my understanding that these were bred for pollinating? Any word on that?


From the saskatraz website:- http://www.saskatraz.com/pages/availability.htm



> Saskatraz breeder queens are selected for honey production, wintering ability, temperament, tracheal mite resistance, varroa tolerance/resistance and brood diseases. The Saskatraz breeding program uses recurrent natural selection to select for varroa tolerance in productive colonies with good economic traits. We have found varroa tolerance is not a stable trait, with considerable variability in the daughters of selected breeder queen’s.


No mention of pollination there. Makes sense to me, they come from saskatchewan, it's a honey producing area, pollination is not the major revenue producer in that area. I certainly understand the desire for winter hardiness for bees in saskatchewan, they get real winters.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc

It was my understating that they are Mated in California? Wouldn’t most stock coming from that region be for pollination?


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## grozzie2

Cuttingedgelandinc said:


> It was my understating that they are Mated in California? Wouldn’t most stock coming from that region be for pollination?


My understanding is, the saskatraz stock is selected in saskatchewan, then breeders are taken to california for the earlier start on raising queens, with the primary intent being, get those fresh new queens back up north much earlier than they can be mated in the north.


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## AstroBee

grozzie2 said:


> My understanding is, the saskatraz stock is selected in saskatchewan, then breeders are taken to california for the earlier start on raising queens, with the primary intent being, get those fresh new queens back up north much earlier than they can be mated in the north.


I communicated with Ray Olivarez last winter and he told me that is exactly what's going on.


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## Michael Palmer

Cuttingedgelandinc said:


> It was my understating that they are Mated in California? Wouldn’t most stock coming from that region be for pollination?


Not if the queens come from Saskatchewan.


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## Michael Palmer

Albert also sends virgins to Sue Coby for insemination.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc

Michael Palmer said:


> Not if the queens come from Saskatchewan.


Got it


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## Saskie

As well as mite resistance, there is a strong focus in the program on winter feed consumption and wintering, quick spring build up and honey production in a short intense flow (traits you need in bees to be successful in Saskatchewan). Generally speaking, bees from Saskatchewan will have a smaller winter population when comparing to Southern Italians in order to reduce feed consumption. Most of us can't easily get feed to our bees in March, and the weather is not conducive to feeding until April.


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## Cuttingedgelandinc

Saskie said:


> As well as mite resistance, there is a strong focus in the program on winter feed consumption and wintering, quick spring build up and honey production in a short intense flow (traits you need in bees to be successful in Saskatchewan). Generally speaking, bees from Saskatchewan will have a smaller winter population when comparing to Southern Italians in order to reduce feed consumption. Most of us can't easily get feed to our bees in March, and the weather is not conducive to feeding until April.


Thanks for the clarification.
Are you at all involved with the program?


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## mathesonequip

i got three to try last summer , one was really runny [the whole colony]. the other 2 got stolen nuc boxes and all while i was at a bee meeting. i am not sure if i need more of this. i know less than when i started.


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## Ian

https://youtu.be/z18wAOGplNg


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## AstroBee

Ian said:


> https://youtu.be/z18wAOGplNg


Nice! I hope those boxes are packed with stores too.


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## gww

Ian
I finaly get to see inside your wintering shed and get an ideal of your storage method.
Thanks for posting.
gww


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## AstroBee

gww said:


> Ian
> I finaly get to see inside your wintering shed and get an ideal of your storage method.
> Thanks for posting.
> gww


Ian's got some of the best videos out there. Check this one out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0D737sAauQ


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## Ian

AstroBee said:


> Nice! I hope those boxes are packed with stores too.


Yes 
I tend to run that line, 
But I also tend to feed my hives right up
I think it’s the early brooding that zaps the stores

Hope I’m not making a video on starvation... lol


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## beepro

Ian, I already know you will never intentionally let your bees to starve. When my hives are
still empty of any nectar yours are already filled with syrup inside. You're too
responsible as a beekeeper to let them die. Good job!


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## Ian

Ian said:


> https://youtu.be/z18wAOGplNg


Keep in mind, there is more to raising good winter nests then just buying a queen. 
Point here is that potential hasn’t been lost throughout their selection process. 
As for mite tolerance...I have not gotten that far with observations yet. 
The last treatment these have gotten was Apivar in the spring of 2016, OAV in fall 2016, this yard was requeened with Saskatraz June of 2017, mite counts linger under 1/2% yet


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## jean-marc

Nice to have low levels of mites. Just goes to show that OAV is deadly for varroa. Combine that with some isolation and the Saskatraz lines having some varroa resistance, a one or 2 time OAV year application and Bob's your uncle. 

Jean-Marc


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## Cuttingedgelandinc

jean-marc said:


> Nice to have low levels of mites. Just goes to show that OAV is deadly for varroa. Combine that with some isolation and the Saskatraz lines having some varroa resistance, a one or 2 time OAV year application and Bob's your uncle.
> 
> Jean-Marc


It seems that everyone has an uncle Bob!


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## reviews

Thanks for the clarification.


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## SwedeBee1970

So would it be better to get just a queen or chance the 3lb package ?

If they're getting queens from Canada then I'd think that the bee stocks should be from northern (Real Winter States) to be effective colonies like it's bred for.
Looks like the testing was done in Canada. And likely bred in Cali. I've got to call them to find out what they do before trying these bees.


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## chops

Did you ever get to talk to anyone?


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## SwedeBee1970

Yes, ordered from Queen Right Colonies. 
The queens are from Canada and stock bees from Cali. 
Until the new queen lays/hatches eggs 3 weeks, then in business. 
Going to attempt queen rearing on them also along with my hygenics.


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## HONEYGUY1973

Any updates on the Saskatraz and how they are building up and overwintered?


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## Brad Bee

Mine did fine. Didn't live any better, or die any worse than my mutt queened hives. They may be a little more docile than "my" bees. They are building up no faster, nor any slower than my mutts. 

To be completely honest, if I didn't know which hive they were in, I would never know from looking in the hives. That is likely a great thing for people in my area. We don't have a long cold winter, but we do have a long hot dearth in the summer. We also have a relatively short, intesne spring flow. I suspect raising bees in my area is a whole lot like raising bees in Saskatchewan, except for the temperature. Our summer dearth would be similar to the SK winter regarding food supply. If the bees change gears and stop brood production based off of nectar and pollen flows instead of decreasing daylength, then they'll do good here. I have no clue yet as to their honey production, but I am happy that there may be a commerically available quality queen that fits in well in my area. Straight bred Italian bees do not do well here, for me anyway. When I've had those, if I didn't feed in late summer, they would starve out. They'd brood until they used everything up in the hive.


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## SwedeBee1970

Talked to them about the queens and said it was -47 there. Back in February. Any survivors would make good genetics in my opinion. Too bad they’re sent to Cali to propagate. Would be nice to have bought bees from the northern states....


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## Aroc

Although it has been a bit too cold to really check on the bees this year it appears our Saskatraz hive is doing very well. We have had a long winter here in Montana.


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## jeremy6638

I have had them for over a year now. They are excellent bees. They winter well, build up hives quickly, are very gentle, and seem to have good mite resistance. I lost zero Saskatraz hives over the winter in Western NY. I lost two carniolan hives over the same winter. The year before I lost 11 out of 12 Italian hives. So I am completely sold on the Saskatraz.


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## mem

We've had great luck overwintering them here in Middle Tennessee as well. I bought my first ones from Lappe a couple of years ago and added more from there this Spring.


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## aran

i have to agree with Brad Bee. I have seen absolutely no difference in winter survival, colony build up or even mite levels between the 7 saskatraz queens i added last year and my own mutt queens.
All of the suqens survived the last winter.


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## AJ Farms

The 4 I have I got straight from Albert Robertson in Saskatchewan. None of that Olivarez junk!! The best colony so far is in 4 deep boxes with around 90lbs of honey. Has not yet attempted to begin swarming and our main honey flow won't start for 1- 1 1/2 weeks All the Saskatraz colonies came through winter with 6 full frames of honey in the top box untouched and exploded in population as soon as pollen starting coming in. Absolutely no complaints of the stock.


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## mem

Saskatraz resources got my mutts through spring.


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## MJC417

What's the difference between Russian bees and Saskatraz? Didn't Robertson just isolate an apiary with Baton Rouge USDA Russian stock and call them Saskatraz? I got my Russian queens from a breeder years ago and have been grafting and splitting ever since. Of course they are all mutts now, but I have had very good luck with them.


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## ifixoldhouses

AJ Farms said:


> The 4 I have I got straight from Albert Robertson in Saskatchewan. None of that Olivarez junk!! The best colony so far is in 4 deep boxes with around 90lbs of honey. Has not yet attempted to begin swarming and our main honey flow won't start for 1- 1 1/2 weeks All the Saskatraz colonies came through winter with 6 full frames of honey in the top box untouched and exploded in population as soon as pollen starting coming in. Absolutely no complaints of the stock.


I bought 10 OHB Saskatraz last year, I have one left, they don't get mated as well I don't think. I made plenty of daughters from em, and they rock.


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## grozzie2

MJC417 said:


> Didn't Robertson just isolate an apiary with Baton Rouge USDA Russian stock and call them Saskatraz?


No


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## MJC417

grozzie2 said:


> No


Then what line of bees did they come from? Just curious


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## grozzie2

The history is on the website.

http://www.saskatraz.com/pages/articles.htm


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## MJC417

grozzie2 said:


> The history is on the website.
> 
> http://www.saskatraz.com/pages/articles.htm


Yes, I've looked at that website before:

A collaborative initiative with the Ontario and Saskatchewan Beekeeper’s Associations resulted in the joint funding of the importation of Russian stock from the USDA research facility in Baton Rouge, La., USA. This stock was demonstrated to show some tolerance to varroa mites (Rinderer, et al 1997), in previous studies and a few Saskatchewan queen breeders had reselected stock imported between 2001 and 2004. In addition, stock (semen) from a German program (Buchler, etal 2002;2008) involved in selecting for varroa tolerance by natural selection was imported in 2004 and 2005.A number of other programs selecting for survival of colonies under varroa mite infestation without miticides treatment have been described (Rinderer etal. 2001; Leconte etal, 2007; Fries etal, 2007; Seeley etal, 2007).Other programs have focused on selecting for hygienic behaviour and suppression of mite reproduction, both traits which are correlated with varroa tolerance(Ibrahim and Spivak,2006;Harris.2007)

So they are Russian mutts, not a bad thing. Mine are most likely crossed with NWC and Italians.


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