# Help? Overwintered Nuc - Weak, double eggs



## snipercsa (Apr 8, 2014)

I have an overwintered nuc (5 over 5) that is not looking great. I created her last summer, around June/July I believe. I created 11 nucs last year (second year beek) and failed-to-feed (learning, so my apologies go to the bees). I am down to 5 nucs remaining. I believe most failed due to lack of stores. However, I worked to correct it by adding sugar which they were all taking until the nectar showed up. I also spread some honey frames to the ones struggling.

Now this particular nuc. There are about 2-3 frames of bees. 2 frames have around fist sized brood areas, one a little larger and on both sides of the frame and one slightly smaller and only one side of the frame. The smaller brood patch has double eggs in many of the cells. That's the frame she was not on when I inspected. I noticed the bees were fanning fairly early in the inspection. Made me think her sent is not strong. They have a couple of frames of capped honey and some open nectar on the brood frames as well as pollen. 

I gave her a frame of mixed brood with attached bees. Should I keep doing this weekly or should I dispatch her, strengthen their numbers, and give fresh eggs for queen replacement? She's nice and fat, long abdomen. I do not want to intervene too much but I also hate to see another one of my first queens bite the dust. If the double eggs is her, is that bad for an overwintered queen? Can there be laying working in a queenright nuc?

Thanks for your help!


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Queens just getting started often lay double eggs, and drop them as well. The syndrome may resolve as the queen gets rolling.

In general, propping up "dinks" is a losing game. If a colony doesn't thrive, you can drag down a lot of other hives helping the "weak" one out. Occasionally the intervention helps, but more often than not, the hive still withers away, and the good colonies are set back. This portion of the premise of "bond testing" bees is absolutely correct.

The trouble with the nostrum "add a frame of brood" is that if the colony is so weak they cannot cover the new brood -- virtually *all* the brood chills and dies.

You need to build population first, by 1) equalizing (exchanging hive position) to harvest foragers, or alternatively, 2) a newspaper combine with a large shake or blown bee crowd.

Only after you have 3 or 4 thousand bees in the colony do the brood additions really turn the corner.

So you are faced with the decision: does one have the resources to make an effective intervention? That means weakening another hive by stripping foragers or bees in sufficient numbers.

Typically, I let nature take its course, and use the (now empty) box as the new home for a split off a strong and vigorous queen. Or at least I claim, but every year I end of lavishing care and resources on some "pet" hives I just don't want to see die, and of course, half of them do anyway.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I have a slightly different take. I'm in the same boat as you, relatively new beekeeper, limited numbers of bees, and need every colony I can get going. I also make mistakes, don't yet have a system down and lose colonies I shouldn't. When I see a small cluster, I ask myself if it is really genetically inferior, or is it small because of lousy beekeeping? As my beekeeping improves, my decision making will probably migrate to JW's, because a dink is probably a dink at that point unless circumstances indicate something different. In the meantime I'll learn a few things. 

Last year I moved two hives across the yard too soon in the year. Not enough emerging brood, didn't have an alternative site. Two promising nucs went downhill fast. I was able to nurse them back to health by putting them in a two queen system, adding brood to the stronger colony, and switch their positions in the stack. The weakest sister of that system is now my strongest hive coming out of this winter. Set me back but saving them was worthwhile. 

This year I have had moisture issues and I had more death than I should have, and had small clusters coming out of winter. I could have done better. I took 3 of the worst micro clusters, verified queens (no brood to chill) and put them above snelgrove boards above strong colonies coming out of winter and diverted foragers. This was before it got warm enough to examine brood frames. One got enough foragers to lay up 6 or 7 frames of brood. The other is well on its way and the jury is still out on number 3 and have given them another donation as their first never amounted to much. The donor hives are all still doing well with large orientation flights a month after the donation. I think in this case it was worth it. 

But don't put brood in a very weak colony. SP mentions shaking in nurse bees if you know where the queen is. Changing hive position is another good option.


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## snipercsa (Apr 8, 2014)

I think I am somewhere between you two. Learning is one of my big drivers in all of this. I want to try to save it, to see if I can and try to learn how. I also do not want to prop up something that should be allowed to fail. Right now I am leaning toward letting this one thrive or fail on its own now that I gave them the frame.

JWC - The queen is from last summer so she's been laying since around July. That's why the double eggs puzzles me... that and the early fanning when I opened it up the other day. The brood I gave them was mostly capped and the frame was fairly covered in bees. Our temps are not dipping very low right now.

Iharder - I asked myself the same question about the inferiority as well as if the queen was poorly mated. Not sure if size matters, but she's a bit larger than the nuc queen next to her which is packed with 5+ frames of bees in the same 5 over 5 configuration. 

I have not tried swapping spots between the nucs. I did lock them in yesterday and move them over to the permanent bee yard last night. About 20-30 yard distance. They were locked in all day so they should reorient today. Just wish I was home to watch.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I suspect she's packed with eggs, raring to go and doesn't have the support staff. 

Did you move all the nucs? Here was an opportunity to leave the dink behind and gather the wayward foragers who stubbornly find their way back to the old location. I never was pleased with the results of moving them across the yard even with locking them in. Much happier now that I have another bee yard to move them too.


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## snipercsa (Apr 8, 2014)

Ehh! I did not think about that. I had tunnel vision to close them up, let them set, then move them. That and pressure from the spouse to finish up with the move. Another lesson learned.


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