# Did you stick with top bar?



## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

I am done with TB. Can't sell TB nucs in my neck of the woods.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I started with two top bar hives, then the following spring expanded into Lang style hives. I still have the original TBHs, but future growth with be with the Langs.

I converted all my TBH swarm traps to hold frames.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Had 2 last yr and they died out (my fault ) , I really liked them but I am off the package treadmill I planned to restock with swarms this yr but we didn't get any calls. My next swarm will go back into one

FWIW my langs died over winter as well. I simply split everything too much and then neglected to feed untill it was too late last fall


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

I have a few top bars for my own amusement. I like to work them, and enjoy the difference in them. However for practicality ease of extraction, and overall production I prefer Langs. I never lift the supers to inspect, unless there is an obvious serious problem, in which case there is usually not much in the super. once the supers go on the bees are on their own until they come off. I believe you will find it that way with most beekeepers. I started wit langs so it is not a case of sticking with top bars, as using them. My care, treatment, management, and harvest methods all lend to langstroth hives and equipment.


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

I started with TBs, second year now, and am planning on building more. They work for me, if I find a reason to try a lang, I will do that as well. I do get to play with a lang here and there with my bee club and helping out friends with theirs.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I didn't because anything that is different is a pain in the backside. I've gotten rid of or modified everything - boxes, frames, covers, feeders, bottom boards, everything - that doesn't mesh with my standard equipment and cultural practices. I found that the odballs didn't always get what they needed when everything else did, because they required different actions or equipment and time is always a premium.

If I were doing it with topbars I would get rid of the odd langstroth equipment at this point too.


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## jsorber (May 27, 2014)

I'm relatively new, but I'm using more of a horizontal hive (essentially a top bar with trapezoidal frames), has the benefit of movable frames, but a smaller footprint on the bottom so that you can have the advantage of the screen. I like them, but I'd probably do long langs if it wasn't for my dad using this other design and we need to be able to support each other with nucs occasionally. As a hobbyist who makes all of his own equipment this works just fine for me (and gives me an excuse to have a compound miter saw) If I was in production for honey or selling nucs I'd probably switch to langs since standard equipment is easier to manage with extraction as well as sales.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>did you stick with too bars or have you changed as you got more sophisticated.

I run a couple of top bar hives and the rest are eight frame medium Langstroths.

> I understand the draw it has, as I am considering it myself. It seems cheaper to get started. But as you grew in knowledge and experience, does top bar remain to have its appeal. 

It is more an issue of distance, time and scale. The top bar hive requires more frequent harvesting during a flow to keep it from swarming. Not practical in a distant yard.

>I am intregued by the argument that cell size is more resilient to disease. But if that is true, why don't they just make the foundation have smaller cells?

They do. Most of the suppliers have 4.9mm wax. Mann Lake has 4.9mm plastic frames. Several places stock 4.9mm fully drawn comb (Honey Super Cell).

> I like the fact that you don't need to lift off supers to inspect or work in hives. 

For that you need a horizontal hive.

>On the down side, you can't get Nucs to fit top bar because the dimensions are not consistent enough since do it yourselfers tend to make things their own way.

You can build a top bar hive to Langstroth deep dimensions and use frames from a standard nuc or top bars. I have several.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

I am in year 4 of beekeeping and second year of trying top bars. I have expanded to 6 top bar hives and reduced to 2 Langs. I am not concerned with major honey production but much prefer working with the TBH. MY hives are all at my primary residence and I have a horse trail running next to the property. I get a lot of people riding or hiking past the property and they often ask about the top bar hives. Generally, they think they are the coolest thing they have ever seen. I frequently give these folks quick tours of the apiary and often will open up the back of one of the hives so they can look inside. It does not disturb the bees too much so they do not get alarmed. I could never do that with the Lang hive without getting suited up first. Surprisingly, and maybe not, the quick tours have resulted in numerous honey sales and lots of repeat customers. All of the neighbors and their kids have taken the tour too and are no longer worried about the bees flying around. The bottom line for me is that I find the TBH bees to be much more gentle than the Lang bees and rarely need smoke with them.


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## Joe Nelson (Apr 24, 2014)

dudelt said:


> I am in year 4 of beekeeping and second year of trying top bars. I have expanded to 6 top bar hives and reduced to 2 Langs. I am not concerned with major honey production but much prefer working with the TBH. MY hives are all at my primary residence and I have a horse trail running next to the property. I get a lot of people riding or hiking past the property and they often ask about the top bar hives. Generally, they think they are the coolest thing they have ever seen. I frequently give these folks quick tours of the apiary and often will open up the back of one of the hives so they can look inside. It does not disturb the bees too much so they do not get alarmed. I could never do that with the Lang hive without getting suited up first. Surprisingly, and maybe not, the quick tours have resulted in numerous honey sales and lots of repeat customers. All of the neighbors and their kids have taken the tour too and are no longer worried about the bees flying around. The bottom line for me is that I find the TBH bees to be much more gentle than the Lang bees and rarely need smoke with them.


So, which features of the top bar do you consider to be the factors that make the bees less aggressive? Would a long langstroth with frames without foundations give you the same result?


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

I started with TBH's then tried some Langstroth's as well. I have both at this time and likely will remain using some of each. I don't see an issue with moving bees from one type to the other as it is easy enough to shake packages/shook swarms. Having several years working with TBH's I have become fairly efficient at working them and really enjoy the management of them. I do still favour my TBH's and run more of them compared to Langs. I think if I had started and learned the Lang system first I would likely favour them over TBH's


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Joe Nelson said:


> So, which features of the top bar do you consider to be the factors that make the bees less aggressive? Would a long langstroth with frames without foundations give you the same result?


It's generally attributed to the fact that when you pop open a Lang, it opens the whole hive. With the top bar hive, you control the opening size and even with openings, the bars still create a "top" and you're exposing very little of the hive at once.

I just started this year, the plan was to have one hive at my brothers. We had a package struggle early and found another supplier and got another two packages. Those two did well, we nursed the struggling package back to life in top bar hives. Then I caught four swarms and put them in top bar nucs.

We currently have four hives in 4' top bar hives (Les Crowder design), one in a top bar nuc, and two in 10 frame deep Langs. We'll see which I prefer in a couple years. I kept Lang dimensions in mind when I picked a TBH design. Cut the top bars down to 19" or so and plopped them from the nuc into the 10 frame deep, they're building it out.

If you're not sure which, make sure your equipment is somewhat interchangable at the get-go.

They build them out pretty good into the Lang:
















Will just have to watch for side attachments, but I'm planning on rotating the bars out and putting frames in their place as time goes on. Putting the top bars in the Lang makes it a bit of a pain to inspect, but it's not a big deal. I just wish I would have let a little more on the top bars. They are just barely wide enough. I'm going to have to do some modification to them so I don't lose them into the bottom of the hive.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

I believe, and it is just my opinion, that when you open the top of the TBH the only bees that notice the opening are those that are right there at the moment. It is a small opening, about 2 inches by 18 inches, and it does not send up the alarms. When you open up the top of a Lang, every bee in the hive knows the roof is now missing! With the TBH I run the hive tool under the top bar and on top of the box from front to back on both sides to loosen up the propolis. Then I do the same between the bars I want to inspect and slide the bars back as one unit, Thus, the roof stays closed for most of the hive and I can inspect what I want without too much disruption. I have a long Lang Hive I built last year but have not used yet. I believe you could get similar results but have not been able to confirm yet. My only concern is that you cannot slide the frames back as easily as you can with the top bars because they are wedged in the box (under the top of the frame and on the side of the top of the frame) and you cannot get the tool under the frames to "unglue" them as easily.


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

David LaFerney said:


> I didn't because anything that is different is a pain in the backside. I've gotten rid of or modified everything - boxes, frames, covers, feeders, bottom boards, everything - that doesn't mesh with my standard equipment and cultural practices.
> 
> I am in the process of doing the exact same thing. Hopefully, I can fill all of the stuff that needs to get gone with bees and sell it in the spring.


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## thebalvenie (Feb 25, 2013)

To answer the original question

I stuck w/ the HTBH and then got 3 more!

i think next spring i want to try the Warre Hive

Very excited about that!


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

I started with langs and set up a tbh just for fun and to try another system. I am wondering if it wil over winter or not. I will keep it for interest not for production.


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## Joe Nelson (Apr 24, 2014)

This is interesting and very informative! 

I am still wondering about taking the best of both systems and making a long Langstroth. If I used top bars with full frames to aid in straight combs and strength of the combs. But make them so they would go into a standard lang box for selling nucs. Wondering if you could just add top bars to a standard lang frame? To close the top gaps and aid in prying out the frames. Just thinking out loud here. Maybe I shouldn't try to reinvent the wheel before diving in? I have Dr mangum's book. He's got years of experience and success with TBH's.


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## mrobinson (Jan 20, 2012)

_(Smile ...)_

"Sophisticated?" "Knowledge?" "Experience??"

What could be more "sophisticated" than the knowledge which _the honeybee_ clearly possesses? What do we say that we "know," when we put them into boxes that suit our own "farmer's convenience" and then bombard them with insecticides to "cure" their ills?

_(No, I'm not humming "kum bah yah" here – I am "instead being totally and utterly practical," as I perceive it, and "may Your Mileage vary!_ This "works for me™," and "may God bless you.™") 

Yes, I kept Lang hives for a number of successful but expensive years, then left beekeeping behind for a while. When I returned, three years ago now, I built four hTBH's _(they're nothing to look at, and they sit on cinder-blocks in a grove of trees in the middle of a pasture ...)_ and ever since that time they've supplied me with all the honey that I want to eat and to give to a few of my close friends. My total investment in all of them was ... the price of 4 x 2 = 8 metal handles, and half a gallon of Thompson's Water Seal. (And a few glass jars ...)

And do I want "more honey than that?" No.

And _that_ is "me," my little corner of the planet, my bees thereupon ... and that is all. _Vive la difference!_

I have a comfortable chair and a small wooden table beneath those same trees, and I love to walk up there and read a book as I watch the bees come and go. (Every now and then, one will land on the book ... I have "well-read" bees.) And _that_ is "beekeeping" for me. I am content.


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## Joe Nelson (Apr 24, 2014)

mrobinson said:


> _(Smile ...)_
> 
> "Sophisticated?" "Knowledge?" "Experience??"
> 
> ...


I was waiting for you to tell us that you snapped the book closed when the bees land. Lol.


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## mrobinson (Jan 20, 2012)

Nope ... I was sound asleep ... _Zzzzz...._

Ahh, those lazy _(hotter than :ws: !!)_ "southern-USA summer days ..."

_("At Cracker Barrel, it's already Christmas going-on Valentine's Day. Can we, therefore, please have a cup of Fall?")_


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## thebalvenie (Feb 25, 2013)

Joe Nelson said:


> This is interesting and very informative!
> 
> I am still wondering about taking the best of both systems and making a long Langstroth. If I used top bars with full frames to aid in straight combs and strength of the combs. But make them so they would go into a standard lang box for selling nucs. Wondering if you could just add top bars to a standard lang frame? To close the top gaps and aid in prying out the frames. Just thinking out loud here. Maybe I shouldn't try to reinvent the wheel before diving in? I have Dr mangum's book. He's got years of experience and success with TBH's.


Warre Hives?


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I started beekeeping with 1 TBH last year and have expanded to 3 full hives and 3 TB nuc this year, along with getting 2 more ladies started with their own TBH. My plan is to stick with all TBHs and hopefully get some educational material together for middle aged gardening ladies who would like to keep bees for the fun of keeping bees, vs. maximum honey production. All my hives have an observation window and the hives are very easy to work. No need to light a smoker or get fully suited up. All my hives are from Beeline Apiaries, so there is a small cost involved in materials, but not the hundreds of dollars for a hive from Goldstar or the like.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I have both. I don't mind Langs, but even building my boxes they are more expensive for me to keep. I started with a Lang and went to TBHs. I setup some Langs this year because I want to raise queens and it is just easier to do in a Lang.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

shannonswyatt said:


> ...because I want to raise queens and it is just easier to do in a Lang.


Why do you say that? Are you grafting? My TBH's are SO easy to cut the queen cells out of because they make them on the edge of the comb. They are natural raised queens though, not grafted.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Yes, I want to make queens when I want to make queens, not when the bees want to make queens!


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

"... and slide the bars back as one unit."

Dudelt, i've tried this technique, but i must be doing something wrong! For me, they quickly hitch up on the propolis, so i end up having to put them back one at a time anyway. What's your secret?

As for the main point of this thread, hubby and i are in our first year of beekeeping, and our top bar hives couldn't possibly be more satisfying (recent inspection notes and photographs can be found at http://wabeekeepersforum.proboards.com/thread/1786/photographs-inspection-july-photo-heavy). Knock wood, the hives will successfully overwinter, and next year, we'll add a lang or two to further flesh out our beekeeping experience.


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## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

I'm a short woman - I wanted to keep bees but I knew lifting up 60 to 90 pounds boxes filled with honey and excited bees probably wasn't going to happen. Even if I had the upper body strength, I'm too short to get any leverage for the top boxes. When I discovered TBHs, I realized that was the answer. I enjoy everything about the top bars: the beautiful frameless, foundationless comb that the bees make, the ease of doing inspections, etc. I had some Lang boxes that were given to me and I did go ahead and put a package in this year. I did the inspections when it was just the first bottom deep, but when I put the 2nd deep on, the first deep was up to the bees to keep straight. Now that I've put a shallow super on, I'll take care of that, but the lower 2 deeps are, again, left to their own devices. If the Lang doesn't survive this winter, I won't do the Lang again. I really don't understand why people do Langs. The one thing I would consider is doing a *horizontal" Lang - that is, a long box like a TBH but to the width and height dimensions of Langstroths so I could use foundationless frames (Kelly Bee Supply makes them) and all the other goodies available for Lang hives.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

estreya, what I do is I pick up a couple bars at once, sometimes three and move them together.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Thank you, Shannonswyatt!

Sorry for taking the thread on a tangent, everyone!  Carry on!


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Estreya, I remove 6 of so bars from the back for working room and break the propolis connecting the bars to the hive, break the propolis between the two bars where I am going to inspect and slide. It does require some force! It is not like they are on well greased rollers. It is still sticky and trying to move 15 at a time is real tough, and I don't recommend trying it. I generally do 5 or 6 at a time. I also will slide 2 hive tools, one on each side, between a few of the bars and the box and slide. The tool has no propolis on it so it slides a little easier. It takes some practice but makes the work a little easier. you might also try squeezing 5 or so bars from the end of the bars between your hands and lifting 1/8 of an inch or so and "sliding". The lifting removes the friction and the space created is so small no bees can get in and be crushed. The bigger your hands the more bars you can do. I have small hands and 4-5 is the max I can do. I have noticed that some TBHs have a board on both sides of the hives to keep the bars nestled in place. If you have these, none of these ideas will work. I hope this helps! FYI, I love your inspection pictures on the other forum! Keep them coming.


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## Joe Nelson (Apr 24, 2014)

Give us a link to the inspection pictures!


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Joe, Here you go

http://wabeekeepersforum.proboards.com/thread/1786/photographs-inspection-july-photo-heavy


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Thank you, Dudelt! That sounds like a very advanced technique to me.  It would probably be best if i continued to move bar-by-bar for a while ...


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

It is not, but trying to describe without any visuals is close to impossible! If I can create a video showing it I will let you know.


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## mala54 (Jul 18, 2014)

I have 2 TBH with strong active colonies, and 2 empty TBH. I enjoy building the hives and plan to build another one this month I catch wild swarms in the spring to stock my hives.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Every time I have to purchase or assemble frames I realize how much I really love my top bars! Ten frames with foundation is a little over 30 dollars for me. I figure my bars cost me something like $.25 a piece. And when I don't need them they are in a box ready to go, no need to put foundation in them.


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

shannonswyatt said:


> Every time I have to purchase or assemble frames I realize how much I really love my top bars! Ten frames with foundation is a little over 30 dollars for me. I figure my bars cost me something like $.25 a piece. And when I don't need them they are in a box ready to go, no need to put foundation in them.


I did the math, 1 1/4 bars cost be 14 cents each, and 1 1/2 bars cost me 18 cents each.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Lots of time they are free, since I will use free wood. Of course they are free like open source software. Open source software is free if your time is worth nothing!


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Shannonswyatt, I like your analogy about the software. How true! I believe my top bars are free because all of them have been made from scraps from other projects. I look at my time spent on them differently. Top bar beekeeping is a hobby, not a business and the time spent is a labor of love and not work. In the end however the time to build 35 or so top bars is not too different from building 35 or so frames. Thus, they equal out on my labor costs. My wife claims she loves to watch be building the top bar hives because I look very meditative doing it and almost always have a smile on my face. I find it very enjoyable to build them and I get to be creative. They all have the same dimensions but each has it's own special design feature and none are exactly the same. Some have the entrances on the long side, some have them on the short side. Some have the entrance on the top, some on the bottom. Some were designed to accommodate Boardman feeders from the outside, some have them behind the slider board. All in all, they are fun because I can design them any way I want!


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## DrWeevil (May 16, 2010)

Shannonswyatt, now you've done made me reply  (I'm a software engineer as well as a beekeeper.)

I prefer TB hives. If I don't like something, or if I learn something new, I can change things around, quite a bit. As with open source software, there is plenty of scope for experimentation, and in both cases there is a real sense of ownership. It's mine; it's the way I want it (I no longer use any commercial software for this reason). With the Lang the only significant change I've been able to make is to go foundation-less.

Obviously this doesn't work well for commercial beekeepers. In that case standardisation pays.


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## txbeek (May 21, 2013)

I started with 1 KTBH in 2012 stocked from a cutout. Expanded to 10 in 2013 with swarm trapping. I now have 20, with 2 being TTBH with straight sides. 

I did add 2 langs this summer that were "gifts" from folks who no longer wanted their mean bees. But I plan to stick with top bar hives since I can get so much old free wood, and have the time and tools to make them quickly and easily. 

With the cutout bars I make using 1/2 x 1" hardware cloth, impaling comb onto a bar is easy. Im doing a big cutout today of Africanized bees from an old abandoned farmhouse. That hive will go to the out outyard until I can requeen. I also have a crushed 55 gallon drum, and 2 6 foot sections of septic tank pipe that are full of bees needing hives. All will go into TBHs. 

I may order some unassembled medium frames and make some Bush style foundationless long hives. But I dont plan to switch to Langs for cost reasons.


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