# 11 out of 12 packages dead by 1-15 and still addicted. I must be crazy.



## WetWilly (Oct 4, 2014)

I know the cause is PMS, I know the solution is genetic. 

I'm not giving up, but I'm also not wasting money on any more packages, flooding feral DCA's with punk genes, or hoping mid-summer supersedure will do the trick. 

At the same time, I cant live another spring without bees, and I cant aspire to become a beekeeper with a yard full of empty hives. SO.... Plan B: 

Swarm traps, by the dozen.

I've sat and watched a feral colony in a boarded up factory window make it winter after winter, drought after drought, dearth after dearth - for a decade now. Obviously they know something I don't about surviving.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_-jNK18aYY 

Mike Palmer, you were right. Thank you. I'm kicking the the package addiction for good. No mas.

ys WW


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

when did you get these bees? you are located in CT? Treatment free?


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## WetWilly (Oct 4, 2014)

Hi Clyde. Not that it matters, but the bees came from where 99% of them come from. They might as well have come from Columbia, courtesy of Pablo Escobar. 

I'm in central Ct, TF.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Were these Columbia packages TF?


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## WetWilly (Oct 4, 2014)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> Were these Columbia packages TF?


Im going with na. At least the Queens we rent


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

when not where did you get them.
what methods have you used since you got them?
why did they die, PMS? are you sure?


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## WetWilly (Oct 4, 2014)

Hi Clyde, unless someone went down the row with a can of raid then ya, I'm sure its PMS.

The method I used was: Buy package Bees, install package bees, decide to go treatment free, inspect on the first warm day, burst into tears and vomit, convince myself it was all a bad dream, inspect again, repeat last step.

Not trying to be sarcastic, but Its the "repeat" part of method that I'm attacking, more of a statement than a question really.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Now is a good time to study up on how to keep them alive, no matter where they come from.

Consider this: it's more than likely that MPalmer can keep package bees alive.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Instead of ,decide to go treatment free, it should be, learn how to kill mites, it will save a lot of heartache.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

So you bought 12 packages of bees and expected them to survive Connecticut winters TF? Package bees serve a purpose in our industry, but those who would follow the uninformed path you did will no doubt walk away with the same result. I've listened to MP stories on why and how he transitioned away from package bees, and I do not recall that is was because they wouldn't survive TF. Further, your Plan B is likely to fail as well, but has a better chance than Plan A. What you should have done was to manage the problem you had by resetting the mites, and introducing queens known to have a chance of survival in your local conditions. Package bees have nearly ZERO chance of survival without treatments - this is well known.


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## WetWilly (Oct 4, 2014)

clyderoad said:


> Now is a good time to study up on how to keep them alive, no matter where they come from.
> 
> Consider this: it's more than likely that MPalmer can keep package bees alive.


Hi Clyde. Always a student, even of morons, present company not included.  MP keep em alive? I bet he can. I hope to get there some day. 

ys WW


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

You can. Need to know what you're working with and their needs, a solid understanding of the way's of the bees, and using the appropriate methods at the correct times.
The same will apply to the swarms you catch this summer. Or any bees for that matter.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

WetWilly said:


> I've sat and watched a feral colony in a boarded up factory window make it winter after winter, drought after drought, dearth after dearth - for a decade now. Obviously they know something I don't about surviving.


The question being are they recolonizing it every year like you will be.

Sorry for your experience. Mine was just the opposite 29 hives for 4 packages and 4 nucs. Intensive treatment and management though. Good luck.


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## WetWilly (Oct 4, 2014)

Dan the bee guy said:


> Instead of ,decide to go treatment free, it should be, learn how to kill mites, it will save a lot of heartache.


Thanks Dan. Learning how to kill mites using the Monsanto plan is a dead end. I was a fool to try to convince myself otherwise, I confess. 

Feral bees have developed an exit strategy. That's where I'm switching my focus, and correct me if I'm wrong but it's also the focus of this Forum.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

WetWilly said:


> I've sat and watched a feral colony in a boarded up factory window make it winter after winter, drought after drought, dearth after dearth - for a decade now. Obviously they know something I don't about surviving.


perhaps.....
I believe the legend of the immortal wild beehive is quite a bit over stated and its swarms replacing when it dies 
https://www.researchgate.net/public...estructor_Mesostigmata_Varroidae_in_Louisiana

Pre varroa ferals averaged 14 months, post varroa adapted ferals 26 mouths, early varroa 10 months

I drank the feral survivor, natural cell size, treatment free kool aid. I would loose my ferals end of their 2nd winter, local packages of end of their 1st, so those above numbers "feel" right to me. 
Mites I didn't see any mites, and I am on natural cell, why would I have a mite problem?:lookout: 
Watched the other beekeepers just a few hundred yards away grow and keep increasing their hive count when I had 100% losses 3 years in a row..

bottom line, learn to keep bees alive with treatments for a few years before trying TF free...and when you go that way, get solid TF stock.
this time around I am trying to get by with OAD/brood breaks/drone trapping I am 6 for 6 right now, have to see what march brings as that's usually when I see my losses


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## WetWilly (Oct 4, 2014)

dlbrightjr said:


> The question being are they recolonizing it every year like you will be.


Dangerous to speculate. But I will anyway, I doubt highly they are being recolonized by domestic stock. I know my town, and hives are few and far between. Time will tell. Thanks though.


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## WetWilly (Oct 4, 2014)

msl said:


> this time around I am trying to get by with OAD/brood breaks/drone trapping I am 6 for 6 right now, have to see what march brings as that's usually when I see my losses


Been there, done that. These were all techniques developed in the 90's when the demons first got here, I remember well. The IMP plan. Swarms are coming from somewhere, my money is better spent on books than drugs. Or bum queens. lol


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

WetWilly said:


> Thanks Dan. Learning how to kill mites using the Monsanto plan is a dead end. I was a fool to try to convince myself otherwise, I confess.
> 
> Feral bees have developed an exit strategy. That's where I'm switching my focus, and correct me if I'm wrong but it's also the focus of this Forum.


I've been down the road of treatment free bees maybe down south way south where you can have some Africanized bees but up north they have to survive a long winter I haven't seen it. Also had some vsh bees they still can't reduce the mites so it doesn't kill them. And no Monsanto doesn't have a plan that works but a lot of beekeepers do. Maybe those beekeepers are the ones to listen to.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

WetWilly said:


> Been there, done that. These were all techniques developed in the 90's when the demons first got here, I remember well. The IMP plan. Swarms are coming from somewhere, my money is better spent on books than drugs. Or bum queens. lol


So WetWilly, what is the point here? bad package bees, useless IPM techniques, mites that can't seem to be controlled, Monsanto, feral survivor bees in a window, bum queens, treatments?

You mentioned a new focus. What is this new focus?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

WetWilly said:


> Feral bees have developed an exit strategy. That's where I'm switching my focus, and correct me if I'm wrong but it's also the focus of this Forum.


 well stated.

collecting verified overwintered feral survivors sounds like a good plan. also consider propagating a few from your one remaining colony if it makes it. who knows, it may have something special going for it.

it looks like we don't have anyone listed for connecticut in the 'members listing' thread ww. are you aware of anyone else in your state having success keeping bees off treatments?

the longer colder winters up there do present challenges for colonies that we don't have down south. mp's overwintering approach might be a good road map to follow.

if by 'kool aid' we mean taking commercially produced packages of bees that come with a history of being treated and expecting them to do well when treatments are removed cold turkey, then please note it's been posited here on the subform for some time now that's probably not a good idea.

indeed, the opening post of this thread lines up perfectly with that sentiment. best of luck to you going forward ww!


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

I started my first year 2016 with goal of going TF. Watched lot of videos, read beesource - read arguments on both sides. 
My plan was, I will start with best I could get, requeen with known TF providers. 

1. Started with commercial Nuc from the bee club. 
2. Purchased another one from local beek who advertised "naturally raised". 

#2 started to fail with DWV within two weeks are getting it. Had no option but to treat trying to save it. 

Created splits from #1 mid June and requeened three splits with 3 Queens from one of very well known TF Northern provider. 

The DWV nuc lingered along with treatment, requeened itself 3 times over. 

Two of TF Queen splits died in September. Confirmed to be overrun with mites. 

So ended up treating left over TF Queen split OAV. 

Took 3 Nucs into Winter, all treated with OAV. 

Yesterday, I went to the website of my TF Queen provider and see this - "It’s not about whether you treat your bees or not, it’s about if you are making bees every year or buying bees every year. If you are good enough at making bees, then you can go treatment-free. It’s taking the challenge of beekeeping to the next level and the next generation. We hope to provide some genetic lines that will further your hives towards resilience."

My new plan is, 

* I am going to first learn how to keep bees without having to buy them every year , 
* Raise my own Queens / Splits, 
* I will THEN set a plan to continue to inject TF queens as and when I can afford them. 

Sorry for the rant. Just FYI.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

it's an appropriate rant daisy, and well within etiquette here.

"Any post advocating the use of treatments, according to the forum definition of treatment will be considered off topic and shall be moved to another forum or deleted by a moderator, *unless it is employed as part of a plan in becoming treatment free.*"

(bold mine)

from: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?253066-Unique-Forum-Rules&p=1152157#post1152157


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Hopefully I can document 2015 in my thread today, I'm highly medicated right now, we'll see how it goes. Some of what the producer said rings true... if you have enough colonies make it that are viable it's easy enough to build back up, but just to watch around 40-60% die off again in fall and winter gets old really quick. It's taken me about 3 years to see some improvement and buying known TF stocks or advertised TF stocks has in no way been any guarantee in their survivability or mite tolerance. Most of the big producers in Cali these days are now stating something about their mite survivability or at least they're selecting for it, but given the sad state of affairs most of the package bees seem to be in it's difficult to give any credence to what actually being done and what's just smoke being blown up our....


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## Robdm1 (Jan 17, 2012)

Last winter 3 out of my 5 hives survived and I got 60 lbs of honey. 
I added 2 more nucs (local) which brought me back up to five hives. 2 hives didn’t make it past fall. I thinking they got robbed out.
I went to check on the other 3 hives on Saturday. All 3 are gone. I can’t believe it. I treated, feed and had quilt boxes. Just like last year. Sucks.
I’m ordering more bee’s as I write this.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Yes, the point of this forum is to offer road maps to TF, treating is not usually part of this road map. Even those that do with honest intentions, seem to have trouble taking the training wheels off. There is probably a place for some treating in some environments, but progress will be slow in these cases. Most who treat do not actively select for mite and viral resistance. 

However, bringing in treated packages is very counterproductive not only in terms of mite resistance, but transferring disease around the country. Local packages/nucs/swarms, even if treated, are better options as the bees will have had some adaptation to local viruses with mite thresholds higher. 

I talked with a local treating keeper recently, who discovered high mite levels (10 to 15 %) in one of his hives. He treated, but he thought they were goners. To his surprise they are doing well, too well. But he's been around for a while, raises most of his own queens, and his bees are productive. Is it a coincidence that one of my hives, headed by a queen I got from him, is doing better overall than the Saskatraz stock I brought in? I think the Saskatraz stock will make an important genetic contribution, but that local adaptation element, what ever it is, is also important.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

yes SP thats what I meant by koolaid, that and all the "magic bullets" -topbar hive, natural cell size, let bees be bees I bought in to while believing the 2 or 3 hives I had would magically have the genetics needed because I wanted them to, instead of likelihood of them being run of the (puppy) mill swams from all the backyard beekeepers in the area

I didn't notice what sub forum I was in on my 1st post...my BAD!.

To be clear, my plan is the same as DaisyNJ. Get to the point I am sustainable and can replace my losses, build a hive count and hopefuly some genetic diversity then start looking for resistance in my stock ( currently all swarm captures), If a few $$ in OAD will get me there I am willing to give it a run. Cause going 007 on a small yard 3-4 hives with 1-2 genetic lines was a dead end for me year after year after year
The wife hasn't see a honey harvest in years, if she dosen't get one this year I may get shut down, lol


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

WetWilly said:


> Hi Clyde. Always a student, even of morons, present company not included.  MP keep em alive? I bet he can. I hope to get there some day.
> 
> ys WW


 Well MP would treat those packages and probably requeen them.


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## WetWilly (Oct 4, 2014)

camero7 said:


> Well MP would treat those packages and probably requeen them.


Yes he would. Kindly note the reason for my citing his video was to highlight his view that package bees and northern beekeeping are incompatible right from jump, and he treats to boot. When you mix TF into the equation it only gets worse. 

Honestly I'm not really sure what the focus is yet, its all still a little fuzzy.  However, I believe now that if its a Beekeepers goal to go treatment free there is no compromise solution, and anyone that tells you there is is selling you something. Like drugs, for example. 

This last summer was the worse drought we have seen in the area for years. Our flow is usually Willow, Alder, Maple, Poplar, Locust (sometimes) Clover/Sumac, dearth, Knot-weed, Goldenrod, Aster, lights out. This year it was dearth, dearth, Maple, poplar, dearth, Clover/sumac, dearth, dearth, dearth and dearth. Point being any swarms I catch this spring are very likely to be some very tough stock. I cant afford to fool myself into thinking package Bees re queened or superseded mid-summer are an adequate start, its just not so. 

So that's it. I'm not giving in to the temptation. I'm already on google maps looking for locations and planning a route. A route FAR FAR away from drug addicted practices and terminally ill bees.


ys WW


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

> Dangerous to speculate. But I will anyway, I doubt highly they are being recolonized by domestic stock. I know my town, and hives are few and far between. Time will tell. Thanks though.


You should not have to go anywhere, few if any beekeepers located near you and a home here on the 
TF forum.

Be careful about who appears to be selling 'the drug'.
Good luck clarifying your focus.


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## WetWilly (Oct 4, 2014)

lharder said:


> but that local adaptation element, what ever it is, is also important.


Yessss that's what I'm aiming for. That intangible "whatever it is". I know its out there. 

Here is a feel good story. Mice were/are a huge problem for me, I'm experimenting with some top-bar designs and they were finding ways in behind the follower and camping there. I don't kill them when I find them I just sort of shoo them out and make adjustments. They of course would promptly move right back in that evening. Well one day I noticed they were away from home and I hadn't evicted them. I got to walking around the yard with my head down talking to myself as is my habit when I noticed what looked like Owl pellets on the ground at my feet. I looked straight up and there he was. A little Saw Whet Owl sitting on a spruce branch not three feet over my head. A fat one. 

Brother Adam (a TF beekeeper BTW) had it right when he said, "Let the bees tell you". By extension we can build on that by saying "let the owl tell you", "let the swarms tell you", "let mother nature tell you".


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

"But First A Rant" ...

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/queens-for-pennies/

"Is There A Difference" ...

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/wha...fference-between-domesticated-and-feral-bees/


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

WetWilly said:


> Yessss that's what I'm aiming for. That intangible "whatever it is". I know its out there.
> 
> ..., I'm experimenting with some top-bar designs ...".


If you are running all topbar hives, I'd be glad to share with you what I do in my chemical treatment free apiary.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WW, you are going hard bond, and have stated firmly held reasons for that. But end of day you have one hive still alive from 12, and if that sole survivor does not make it what does 100% dead bees achieve.

You have made one statement I think is a fallacy, being that you don't think package bees requeend 1/2 way through the season is going to work.

I got a few thoughts on that. First off, it's obvious from other posts in this thread that some bees being sold as treatment free are not actually treatment free survivors. But let's say we go past that and assume you can find a source of genuine treatment free survivors that can make it in your area. 

If you got commercial packages, they could be treated with OA to eradicate mites and be requeened mid season, because that gives adequate time for the new queens bees to take over the hive by winter, and OA leaves no permanent residue in the hive, so I don't see what would be wrong with this plan, or indeed any valid philosophical reason for rejecting it.

Only thing, others with more experience in your conditions than both you and I, have stated there are just no bees in existance that will survive TF in your area, if this is the case then whatever you do nothing is going to work, you will end up either treating, buying bees every year, or out of the hobby. But if working on the premise that bees do exist that could make it TF in your area, and you believe you have found a source of such queens, then I see no reason not to use OA plus requeening packages as a philosophically acceptable way to get yourself established with them.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> it's an appropriate rant daisy, and well within etiquette here.
> 
> "Any post advocating the use of treatments, according to the forum definition of treatment will be considered off topic and shall be moved to another forum or deleted by a moderator, *unless it is employed as part of a plan in becoming treatment free.*"
> 
> ...


Didn't anyone read this?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Slow Drone said:


> Didn't anyone read this?


yes. why do you ask?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The big hurdle is getting beekeepers around you to also keep bees that survive without treatments. Given the start with packages, why not order some queens from Carpenter and put them into your packages. With a bit of selection his bees might make it for you.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

msl said:


> perhaps.....
> I believe the legend of the immortal wild beehive is quite a bit over stated and its swarms replacing when it dies
> https://www.researchgate.net/public...estructor_Mesostigmata_Varroidae_in_Louisiana


I'm curious who has read this full article www.researchgate.net/publication/23...estructor_Mesostigmata_Varroidae_in_Louisiana. If I am reading it correctly, the authors claim that feral swarms in the area studied have rebounded such that they are surviving significantly longer on average than they did before the arrival of varroa. And feral bees in the area studied have had eight more years since the publication of this article to adapt. 

One quote particularly resonated with my experience: "Broad feral populations may offer novel recombinations of honey bee genetics that could prove useful for breeding programs aimed at varroa-resistant bees." Although, I am a bigger fan of cutouts than swarms generally because you can often have a little better idea about the provenance of the colony. I have not looked at it, but the longevity of survival of feral colonies that have survived at least one year may be quite higher than first year swarms.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Slow Drone said:


> Didn't anyone read this?


those of you who have been around for awhile know that i don't advocate drinking the kool aid as defined above, nor do i make it my mission in life trying to convert all beekeepers over to tf.

i take a more open minded and pragmatic approach when it comes to the topic and for that reason i had some posts deleted from here by the previous and no longer contributing tf subforum moderator.

i lobbied barry at the time to remove the unique forum rules attached to the tf section because i thought they were arbitrary and i wanted the discussion here to be free and unencumbered by those rules.

as time went on i discovered that those rules really do serve a good purpose. tf beekeepers are outnumbered here on beesource by more than 10 to 1, and among the treating contributors there is a small contingency that is just as religious about demonizing treatment free as some of the zealots in the tf camp can be in return.

since the tf group is grossly outnumbered here, and if barry didn't have this etiquette in place, it would be almost impossible to carry on a discussion without it becoming derailed and deteriorating into contest of wills.

i mentioned not long ago that i felt like the community has matured in this regard and i feel like with very few exceptions that there is much more mutual respect being shown from both sides of the approach to the other side. i for one appreciate that very much.

no one likes their posts deleted, and i sure hate to see those x'ed out envelopes next to the thread titles when i'm searching the forums. the bottom line is that i'm proud to be a member of beesource and overall i think we're doing a pretty good job at moderating ourselves.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I'm surprised that most of the first-year packages have failed, especially if they had sufficient stores and no condensation problems.

My understanding has been that packed bees usually make it through the first winter...


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

That's a good point BeeCurious, we all just assume package bees, must be mites, but in fact could have been anything, and this is a first year beekeeper in a harsh environment.

And you are the moderator now SP? Didn't know that!


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

BeeCurious said:


> I'm surprised that most of the first-year packages have failed, especially if they had sufficient stores and no condensation problems.
> 
> My understanding has been that packed bees usually make it through the first winter...


That's what we see with package bees down here too. First winter no problem, second summer mite levels rise dramatically and a crash occurs during late fall or early winter.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Fusion_power said:


> The big hurdle is getting beekeepers around you to also keep bees that survive without treatments.


Or failing that requeen as needed.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

no ot, barry is the moderator here, but he's got it made these days. 

there have been reports of higher than normal losses in the northeastern u.s. this winter and the vast majority are treating. any new updates on that camero7?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Barry has it made these days? What's going on? I haven't seen anything of him for a long time!


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> no ot, barry is the moderator here, but he's got it made these days.
> 
> there have been reports of higher than normal losses in the northeastern u.s. this winter and the vast majority are treating. any new updates on that camero7?


Is that any wonder if as you say "tf beekeepers are outnumbered here on beesource by more than 10 to 1" is accurate?


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## GZB (Jan 29, 2013)

The drought this summer was something we have very limited experience with in New England. It added a level of management most were not prepared for. I think they will be selling lots of packages here this spring.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Riverderwent said:


> If I am reading it correctly, the authors claim that feral swarms in the area studied have rebounded such that they are surviving significantly longer on average than they did before the arrival of varroa.


that's what it says
The unknown is why, there is a possibility that the 31L fiber pot swarm traps they were kept in were too small for the pre feral stock causing them to blink out with casts (or otherwise succumb do to a volume issue), and the post stock is just better adapted for smaller hive volumes for some reason. 
however the small hive volume survival rate in this study lends support to Seeley's nest size survival rate study and the "audacious" plan of running single deeps with only a shallow super that sprung from his results


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

DaisyNJ said:


> * I am going to first learn how to keep bees without having to buy them every year ,
> * Raise my own Queens / Splits,
> * I will THEN set a plan to continue to inject TF queens as and when I can afford them.


:thumbsup:
If you have no ferals around like I have and limited experience this is just the way to go.
I started with more tolerant stock but the environmental circumstances and some other things are the cause of this winter`s losses.
I will get treated hives in late spring and with those I will do the soft bond. No cold turkey possible, but I will not mix them with my survivors if I will have any. The survivors will not be treated and kept isolated.

To select traits ( not surving alone) you need at least 10 hives with 2 year queens in my opinion. This stock you have to rise first and to have enough survivors you need double amount of these.
If you start to be an experienced beekeeper the next step will be to introduce tf or VSH queens or with luck, develop your own more resistant stock.

As you can see in the different threads and different forums to treat is no guaranty to have no losses. With experience in beekeeping chances are a little higher with both paths.

SP, thanks for all your helpful contributions in the treatment free forums. Without you this civilized discussions would not be possible and i would never have stayed.( Barry too, Thanks for your kind help).


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is that any wonder if as you say "tf beekeepers are outnumbered here on beesource by more than 10 to 1" is accurate?

I'd be curious to know the source of that number...


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Dan the bee guy said:


> Instead of ,decide to go treatment free, it should be, learn how to kill mites, it will save a lot of heartache.


That's the best advice for Wet Willy. Plus attitude adjustment in there too.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i think the 10 to 1 number is a reasonable estimate based on the observation of the number of folks in the treatment free members listing thread compared to the total number of active members, the observation that at any given time less than 10% of those logged into the site are viewing the tf subforum, and the observation that in my local organization just under 10% of us are keeping bees off treatments.

i see now that i shouldn't have stated that as fact, but rather used 'i'm guessing' or something similar. my apologies. 

i suppose if having a more reliable estimate is desired we could start a poll...

i'm guessing my estimate is reasonably close.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I'm the only (hear rumours of another) TF keeper in my area. I would say maybe 75 keepers show up to meetings. But in terms of size, I'm starting to get up there.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Treatment free members listing = 60 listed ( post #130 1/21/17)
Active Members = 2,873 (1/24/17)

Looks like tf beekeepers are outnumbered by better than 45:1 to me. Not 10:1.



> there have been reports of higher than normal losses in the northeastern u.s. this winter and the vast majority are treating.


 Is it any wonder? 



> the observation that at any given time less than 10% of those logged into the site are viewing the tf subforum


how is this observation made?

I'm guessing your estimate is not close at all, and makes your comment misleading.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> WW, you are going hard bond, and have stated firmly held reasons for that. But end of day you have one hive still alive from 12, and if that sole survivor does not make it what does 100% dead bees achieve.
> 
> You have made one statement I think is a fallacy, being that you don't think package bees requeend 1/2 way through the season is going to work.
> 
> ...


Yes, and he could have brought in even more queens to make up some nucs to overwinter, say 20. In fact do the nuc increase first, then finish with requeening the packages. With 50 % survival he could have 18 hives ready for this spring to work from with better genetics. If one is going to spend the bucks on the packages, then take it to the next level and invest in some queens.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

clyderoad said:


> Looks like tf beekeepers are outnumbered by better than 45:1 to me. Not 10:1.


well 45:1 is outnumbered better than 10:1 is it not?



clyderoad said:


> Is it any wonder?


why is it any wonder clyde? since you reside up there perhaps you can shed some light on why the high losses in the northeast this winter. 



clyderoad said:


> how is this observation made?


click on forum at the top, and you can see how many are viewing the individual subforms at that time.



clyderoad said:


> I'm guessing your estimate is not close at all, and makes your comment misleading.


it's never my intent to mislead clyde, but you and a few others have already done a good job of illustrating the point i was trying to make in that post. 

i'm happy to concede to you in this yet another battle of wills, you win.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Not a battle of wills squarepeg, too bad you look at it that way.
It's a matter of accuracy and clarity.

The safe harbor shot across the bow by your comment:


> there have been reports of higher than normal losses in the northeastern u.s. this winter and the vast majority are treating.


is what peaked my interest.

The vast majority of *all *posters are treating, there is no wonder the vast majority of reports you refer to are by those treating. The 45:1 issue (or your !0:1). 

Maybe you don't realize how slanted some these comments read.

No need to take the high road with me square, I'm just a regular beekeeper with nothing to prove and no agenda.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

When I first discovered bee chat sites back around 2006, and signed up to Beesource in 2008, it seemed all beginner beekeepers wanted to go the TF route. Some time later I read that some overwhelming majority, possibly 90% but can't quite remember, of small and new beekeepers were TF. 

But of recent times it's been obvious only a minority of contributors are fully TF, has things changed? Then there is another group who consider themselves TF because they do not see their particular favorite treatment, as a treatment.

Sols TF FB page has several thousand members but like Beesource it's hard to know how many are active, or how many treat. There are treaters there because I keep seeing people getting kicked off the site for talking about treating. And even I am a member there so there's probably a bunch of other people similar to me there.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

clyderoad said:


> Consider this: it's more than likely that MPalmer can keep package bees alive.


Truth.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> I am a member there so there's probably a bunch of other people similar to me there.


I'm with Groucho on this one, I don't want to belong to any organization that would have me as a member.

For those who worried over ratios above, I won't make any estimates of beekeepers who treat vs don't treat. What I will suggest is that over time we will all become beekeepers who don't treat. It is as inevitable as the development of resistant genetics will permit. Now we can argue over whether beekeepers will have to treat for varroa until the end of time.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Maybe they will, maybe they won't, nobody can know that. All other industrially farmed species from chickens to plants to steers in beeflots are routinely medicated, it's a consequence of industrial farming not unique to beekeeping. It's plague prevention.


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## WetWilly (Oct 4, 2014)

Cloverdale said:


> That's the best advice for Wet Willy. Plus attitude adjustment in there too.


Ya I'll get right on that. Maybe we can start a PM therapy session. As soon as I can lift my face out of the toilet. lol


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

OT, not directed at you. The last two sentences were pointed at the 10:1 or 45:1 strawmen floated above. I'll edit the post to make that clear.


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## WetWilly (Oct 4, 2014)

ruthiesbees said:


> If you are running all topbar hives, I'd be glad to share with you what I do in my chemical treatment free apiary.


Thank you Ruth, and I will gratefully accept any help offered, and do what I can to contribute. Bouncing my granddaughter on my knee and browsing your page right now. 

ys WW


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Fusion_power said:


> OT, not directed at you. The last two sentences were pointed at the 10:1 or 45:1 strawmen floated above. I'll edit the post to make that clear.


OK have edited my answer that now lacks any context.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

WetWilly said:


> Thank you Ruth, and I will gratefully accept any help offered, and do what I can to contribute. Bouncing my granddaughter on my knee and browsing your page right now.
> 
> ys WW


I will send it to you in a PM on Beesource. Prefer not to get dragged into the fray of this thread, but would be happy to explain how I manage the mites in my hive.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Fusion_power said:


> OT, not directed at you. The last two sentences were pointed at the 10:1 or 45:1 strawmen floated above. I'll edit the post to make that clear.


No strawman, just simple math derived from squarepegs post. Correct me if I'm wrong.



> ....What I will suggest is that over time we will all become beekeepers who don't treat. It is as inevitable as the development of resistant genetics will permit. Now we can argue over whether beekeepers will have to treat for varroa until the end of time.


Terrific if it's so.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

OT, I don't see the black bold moderator status under his name. 
If you don't treat then at least do some mite bee bomb frames removal to let some
hives survive. This is exactly what I did. Then when the hives are booming in the Spring time, get them the tf stocks.
Swarm trapping you don't know their genetics and changes are might go back to square one again. Then another
2 years are wasted trying to go tf.
After the mites got removed into the mite bee bomb nuc hive all my hives are surviving now. One hive almost ran out of food as the bee population grow some more coming out of winter. No syrup, no incoming nectar flow either as they are starting to brood up with 4 frames of hungry bees and broods. The mite levels are minimal though the hive is almost at the starvation stage now. With the Cordovan queens and carnis drones, their genetics somehow don't mix together. Why they still not mutted, I don't know.
I have to give them some emergency feeding with 4 lbs. of loose sugar on the bottom board and 2 small sugar loaves on the top bars. This should keep them going for awhile. If you use the same hive manipulation then your package bees are still alive now. Come Spring time I will use the tf drones to I.I. the Cordovan queens with compatible genetics since the carnis drones cannot do it here. Tf is possible if you know how to keep your bees alive over the winter. 


See it here:


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Thanks Beepro I'll bear it in mind.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Treatment free members listing = 60 listed ( post #130 1/21/17)
>Active Members = 2,873 (1/24/17)

I get PMs and emails all the time from tf people who don't want to post on here because they don't want to be attacked or ridiculed. To assume that there are only 60 on Beesource is definitely erroneous. More than that contact me on a regular basis.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Several times in this and other threads I have seen statements like package bees will not make it in the north and the queens with package bees are junk and can not over winter in the north. I am fully willing to accept both statements if your desire is to simply put the bees in a box and expect them to prosper and over winter. However, I also know of several people in the north, places like Chicago for instance, who have had fine luck over wintering package bees and queens with losses as low as 5%. So, what is the difference? Quite simple really. Those with good results made sure the bees were healthy and parasite free within days of receiving the package. If the bees were on foundation they feed 30 or more pounds of sugar to get them started off right and get some drawn comb. They made sure the bees had adequate stores all summer. If needed they started fall feeding in August to make sure the hive has adequate winter stores. They made sure the bees were healthy and parasite free again in August. If you do not want to make sure your bees are healthy and parasite free and have adequate stores at all times guess what? They will likely die. If you do make sure they are clean and have stores you can expect less than 10% winter deaths that first winter. You can pretty well bet that you will never buy a package that is parasite free. If you do get one parasite free it is simple luck and likely not repeatable even from the same source. You will never buy a package that has adequate stores from day one. You can probably help your odds a little if you requeen with honestly mite resistant queens within a month of getting the package or you can buy the package with a mite resistant queen. If you do not make sure they are parasite free right at the start and wait to requeen until August with the most mite tolerant queen money can buy they are likely dead in that first winter and you just wasted your money on that perfectly good replacement queen.

So, packages do not die simply because packages are junk. Packages die because of the lack of management practices of the buyer. Try buying a brand new car and never change the oil or check and correct the problem when the check engine light comes on and see if you can get 100,000 miles out of it. Lack of management by the owner will ruin that perfectly good car.

If you will note carefully I never once said you need to treat with a chemical. There are other options if you are willing to feed that package enough. I leave it up to you to figure those options out yourself as if you have to work a bit you might learn something about bee management.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Richard Cryberg said:


> ...If the bees were on foundation they feed 30 or more pounds of sugar to get them started off right and get some drawn comb. They made sure the bees had adequate stores all summer. If needed they started fall feeding in August to make sure the hive has adequate winter stores. They made sure the bees were healthy and parasite free again in August....


Y'all need to pay attention to Richard here. Although I started with nucs (with proven, laying queens) I was advised similarly- feed, feed, feed to get comb drawn and get them started right. Get them built up and healthy right off the bat.

I had 100% survival here in cold country, with bees out of Georgia (I insulated too). Build them up and make sure they're healthy.

If you're in a place that gets a -real- Winter, with temps that go near zero or below, -insulate- them. I know that there are a lot of people who will tell you that you don't need to do it, but I can tell you that it really helps. You want to give them the best chance? Give them every advantage. I got caught be an early sub-zero cold snap here and didn't have insulation on yet, and they suffered.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

WetWilly said:


> Swarm traps, by the dozen.
> I've sat and watched a feral colony in a boarded up factory window make it winter after winter, drought after drought, dearth after dearth - for a decade now. Obviously they know something I don't about surviving.


You've got the right idea. If you want to be successful keeping bees treatment free, learn from those who are successful keeping bees treatment free. Particularly folks in your locale. They're around. Don't feed your feral bees unless they need it, and try not to cause them to need it.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Richard Cryberg said:


> Several times in this and other threads I have seen statements like package bees will not make it in the north and the queens with package bees are junk and can not over winter in the north.



I believe that most comments, and certainly every comment I've made here (and elsewhere) about package bees not surviving was based on the premise that they were left treatment free. It doesn't take God-like beekeeping skills to make package bees survive long-term,. However, to simply place them in a box (even feed as much as they require) but pay no attention to mites and not treat or requeen, and they'll be dead (most times) by the end of the second year. Any that survived the second winter would be remarkable. If that's how you want to spend your money and treat these creatures, then I guess have at it. However, if you want to be respectful of the creatures you just adopted, then take the appropriate action to insure they thrive, and believe it or not reach your goal sooner. Above all, if you want to become TF, then don't follow the path detailed in post #1 of this thread. 

I am NOT bashing the package industry - this is the nature of the business. I've bought many packages of bees and experimented with various methods (treatment, and TF), so I know what to expect. I've had some GREAT queens come in packages too. It should be obvious to anyone who's played this game that treatment or some other intervention IS required if you're going to start with package bees. 

I say all of this as someone who has invested a great deal of time and money working towards becoming TF and have had as much success as some of the most notable and frequent posters in this forum. One way I differ is that if I find a problem it gets fixed. I simply do not believe in letting colonies perish. Believe it or not, I'm in this business to make a profit and allowing bees to die is not part of that formula.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

squarepeg said:


> no ot, barry is the moderator here, but he's got it made these days.
> 
> there have been reports of higher than normal losses in the northeastern u.s. this winter and the vast majority are treating. any new updates on that camero7?



Nothing new so far... spring will tell the story


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Instead of ,decide to go treatment free, it should be, learn how to kill mites, it will save a lot of heartache.

If he wanted to hear all of these posts about treating or how treatment free can't work, he would have posted this in the "Disease and Pests" forum.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Turns out that's what Lorenzo Langstroth would say too were he able to advise us today! The boxes that we call a "langstroth" he called cheap imitations. They were used by people who overwintered their bees in a cellar, then brought the boxes out. 

Langstroth used double-walled boxes with sand or straw between the 2 layers of wood. he was trying to recreate a bee tree. Not related to starting with packages vs nucs or whatever - but kind of interesting what we have forgotten that beekeepers of the past already knew...


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Michael Bush said:


> If he wanted to hear all of these posts about treating or how treatment free can't work, he would have posted this in the "Disease and Pests" forum.


Its really not clear what he wanted to hear. He lost 11 out of 12 packages to PMS. His plans were as stated: "Buy package Bees, install package bees, decide to go treatment free..." I'm not sure which forum this thread belongs in, but IMO the TF forum has been given a disservice by this example.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

AstroBee said:


> Its really not clear what he wanted to hear. He lost 11 out of 12 packages to PMS. His plans were as stated: "Buy package Bees, install package bees, decide to go treatment free..." I'm not sure which forum this thread belongs in, but IMO the TF forum has been a disservice by this example.


I agree especially when you read the following October 13th post by the OP.




WetWilly said:


> I put my 2:1 on about 2 hours ago and its half gone. Sound about right? Or did I poke too many holes in the can. Nothing leaking out either entrance.
> 
> SNIP


Was there any additional feeding?


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## WetWilly (Oct 4, 2014)

Riverderwent said:


> You've got the right idea. If you want to be successful keeping bees treatment free, learn from those who are successful keeping bees treatment free. Particularly folks in your locale. They're around. Don't feed your feral bees unless they need it, and try not to cause them to need it.


Thanks Riv, IMO in my micro-environment, (declining industrial/suburban, the one I have faith has been weeding out the poor lines), feeding through the dearth just comes with the territory. You need a big nest for Knotweed. (yum yum) 

I find it grimly amusing that people refuse to believe package producers might consider selling packages that fail in the first year a smart business model. Its even smarter if we keep giving in to the urge. 

It makes me wonder where all these successful treatment free genetics are disappearing. They would come in handy, no?


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

WetWilly said:


> I find it grimly amusing that people refuse to believe package producers might consider selling packages that fail in the first year a smart business model. Its even smarter if we keep giving in to the urge.
> 
> ?


You need to stop blaming the package supplier for your hive deaths and learn to blame yourself. You killed those hives pure and simple. It is not the suppliers fault you killed them it is your fault. Until you understand that and correct your cultural practices you will most likely continue to kill hives regardless of where you get them. Do not blame others for your personal neglect.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Richard Cryberg said:


> You need to stop blaming the package supplier for your hive deaths and learn to blame yourself. You killed those hives pure and simple. It is not the suppliers fault you killed them it is your fault. Until you understand that and correct your cultural practices you will most likely continue to kill hives regardless of where you get them. Do not blame others for your personal neglect.


+1


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

With good "cultural practices" they over winter alligators out side here in the CO mountains...







dosen't mean the average person will have good luck doing it, doesn't mean they are suited for our climate 

Yes everyone is quick to blame anyone/thing but themselves and point the finger.. I agree there


http://www.howardcountybeekeepers.o...-between-nucleus-and-package-started-colonies

but there are enuf studies and reports out there to suggest there IS something wrong with package queens form the south in the north, as MP points out, how is a drone laying queen the beekeepers fault


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

From that link - "_Our results were very promising in the survival differences. In over two years, the adjusted data for survival revealed the following: 42% of the southern commercially raised package colonies survived their fist winter strong enough to be a viable colony in the following summer. 83% of the overwintered northern raised Nucleus colonies were in viable condition, and 90% of the northern requeened packages were in viable condition the following spring_".

Pretty much what I've been saying for years. Nothing actually wrong with packages per se, just, if you are buying genetics that are not suited to your area, still buy the package but requeen with genetics that is.

Note the survival rate of requeened packages was even better than the locally produced nucs.

Problem solved....


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Pretty much what I've been saying for years. Nothing actually wrong with packages per se, just, if you are buying genetics that are not suited to your area, still buy the package but requeen with genetics that is.


Getting a queen suited to your area is an excellent cultural practice. Or save yourself the trouble of requeening and buy a package that comes with a Minnesota Hygienic queen. I know someone is supplying such packages. Do not know who off hand but a number of locals bought 100 such packages a few years back.


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## WetWilly (Oct 4, 2014)

Richard Cryberg said:


> You need to stop blaming the package supplier for your hive deaths and learn to blame yourself. You killed those hives pure and simple. It is not the suppliers fault you killed them it is your fault. Until you understand that and correct your cultural practices you will most likely continue to kill hives regardless of where you get them. Do not blame others for your personal neglect.


Meh, not really.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I may not share his opinion on package bees, but I certainly respect it


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

come on wetwilly, this is the no snarkiness zone. please edit the personal attacks from your post so that i don't have to.


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## WetWilly (Oct 4, 2014)

Suggesting there is a problem with his comprehension level is an opinion, not an attack. 

as for the rest.... sorry Mod, I pm'ed him and got no reply. Apparently he's not interested in "cashin me outsaahhd" 

ys WW


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## WetWilly (Oct 4, 2014)

Im looking forward to more enlightened discussion from the treatment free gang and a little less from folks espousing their superior bee-treating... sorry "beekeeping" abilitys.

ys WW


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Thanks for sharing your experience, that takes cojones to admit a hive death. We can all learn more by taking notes from others' experiences, bad and good, and I hope people continue to be brave enough to post. Beesource is the best resource I have found on treatment free beekeeping, and it is all from volunteering our own info and experiences.

Good luck WW in finding feral bees! Or rather, having them find you. And you now have fabulous resources for your future splits and swarms, so they can take off. Take care to close those hives well so gyspy moths and shb don't get in... if you aren't getting freezer temps outside might have to freeze a few frames. 

Thomas Seeley has a fabulous book about beelining, which is hunting feral hives, and if your library doesn't have it, I would say get it! Spring, before the nectar flow, is a great time to do beelining...


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## WetWilly (Oct 4, 2014)

Hey Trish, thanks very much. Context and objectivity among the Pro-treatment overlords that stalk the forum will go a long way in improving peoples confidence in contributing, but hey If lonesome Willy has to take a beat down to prove it can be weathered then so be it. The bees arent getting out of this without a blood nose so why should I? Or anybody else for that matter 

By the way I was at the apiary today and 12 is dead. A perfect score.  

Tom Seely's paper on bait hives is very good, I'm sure his book is good too. 

ys WW


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

WetWilly said:


> Pro-treatment overlords


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?334067-Critical-Mass&p=1514948#post1514948


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## Swarmhunter (Mar 5, 2015)

Sounds like no management between putting bees in and checking them in Jan.
Bees didn't stand a chance.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

WetWilly said:


> Hey Trish, thanks very much. Context and objectivity among the Pro-treatment overlords that stalk the forum will go a long way in improving peoples confidence in contributing, but hey If lonesome Willy has to take a beat down to prove it can be weathered then so be it. The bees arent getting out of this without a blood nose so why should I? Or anybody else for that matter
> 
> By the way I was at the apiary today and 12 is dead. A perfect score.
> 
> ...


The battle you are, and will be, fighting when you get more bees is between you and keeping your bees alive.
All this effort you've expended in this fictitious and shallow battle with what other beekeepers do to manage their bees has gained you nothing.
Learn the way of the honeybees, then you'll be getting somewhere. 
Remember: Crawl, Walk, then Run.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

WetWilly said:


> Hey Trish, thanks very much. Context and objectivity among the Pro-treatment overlords that stalk the forum will go a long way in improving peoples confidence in contributing, but hey If lonesome Willy has to take a beat down to prove it can be weathered then so be it. The bees arent getting out of this without a blood nose so why should I? Or anybody else for that matter
> 
> By the way I was at the apiary today and 12 is dead. A perfect score.
> 
> ...


Wow!! What exactly are you trying to accomplish?


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## IsedHooah (Jan 13, 2015)

opcorn:


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## Notapro (Dec 16, 2014)

Hey folks, I read a lot and post only occasiomally but thought I would add my experiences here. Been learning about these little buggers for about 4 years now. My first attemt was a nuc bought from. Local guy who swore he would not sell to me if I did not treat for mites. "They will not survive and I am not selling you my bees if you are just going to let them die"! So, I treated that nuc and it did not make it through the first winter. Luckily, a swarm moved into the vacant hive the next spring and I still have that hive going strong three years later. I set swarm traps out and have caught a couple swarms each year and that along with splits from my strongest hives has gotten me to 13 colonies. Without treatment so far.

Last year I had one hive that was very infested with mites and I was afraid it would not make it but they pulled through. That one is probably my weakest hive right now but still alive and building up nicely. When I saw the problems with this hive I got scared and checked my oldest and strongest hives for mites by cutting out drone comb and doing a count. The infested hive had mites in nearly 90% of the drone cells and many had 3 or more mites per cell. The stronger hives were in much better shape with one only showing about 10% infection rate.

I put a sticky board under the least infected hive and left it there for 24 hrs. When I pulled it out I only found a few mites. I got a small microscope out and examined the mites I found. Each of them had been chewed up pretty badly. Legs chewed completely off a couple. This hive swarmed one Saturday while I was out there looking at them (what an experience!) and I was able to catch this swarm. Yesterday this swarm captured hive was busting at the seams and I had to give them more room. Not much in terms of stores but loaded with bees and capped brood. i also made a split from the original hive last year so now I have three colonies with these genetics and all are doing very well.

My thoughts! I have split quite a bit and caught swarms so I obviously have had brood breaks which has to help. I know there are some genetics in my bees that try to control mites because I saw mites that had been attacked. I think both are working in my favor. Something else I do is never feed sugar. I leave them all the fall honey and take any excess in the spring as our flow starts. I just pulled about 4 gallons of excess Fall honey last weekend since things are starting to bloom here. I also run foundationless but I am not sure how much this plays into things. Seems like the jury is still out in this one but some of the reasons people state for foundationless makes sense to me.

Another factor that I think helps me is that I am not real close to a lot of agriculture. To the east of me is a large river swamp with no one keeping bees or growing crops there. To the west there are a few beeks about 4 to 5 miles away but other than that, as far as I know, there are not any other managed colonies.

So were the swarms I caught feral or where thay from someone's managed hives? I have no idea but I have never seen a marked queen. My bees are smaller than the first ones I got and darker in color. The queens are a deep yellow color. They are not mild mannered but also not so hot that you cannot work them. They LOVE propolis and this trait makes working the hives a lot more difficult than that first nuc I had. Again, not sure if this is a contributing factor to success or not but it is an observation.

As my handle says, I am not a pro! I am a relatively new beek (especially by the standards of a lot of the folks on this site) but I have been learning a lot over the last 4 years. I tend to analyze things and try to relate observations to scientific reasoning. Just the engineer in me I guess! One thing that has always made sense to me is that treating will make bees weaker and mites stronger. That is the reason I am trying to go TF. If the bees have to struggle for survival, they will learn how to fight off this predator. Even in the human population with terrible diseases like ebola, not everyone dies. There are some people that can survive this dreadful disease and those are the ones scientist study for a cure. With the short lifecycle of bees, if we can find strains that can fight off the mites or develop resistence to PMS, I believe we can be successful at becoming treatment free. At least until the next crisis hits!


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Thanks. Please continue to share your experience. I enjoyed your post. Good luck.


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## Notapro (Dec 16, 2014)

And hence, why I dont post on here much!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Notapro said:


> And hence, why I dont post on here much!


that kind of crap doesn't happen too often these days, please continue to share your experiences here.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

squarepeg said:


> that kind of crap doesn't happen too often these days, please continue to share your experiences here.



Don't let one jerk put you off...


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Notapro said:


> Hey folks, I read a lot and post only occasiomally but thought I would add my experiences here. Been learning about these little buggers for about 4 years now. My first attemt was a nuc bought from. Local guy who swore he would not sell to me if I did not treat for mites. "They will not survive and I am not selling you my bees if you are just going to let them die"! So, I treated that nuc and it did not make it through the first winter. Luckily, a swarm moved into the vacant hive the next spring and I still have that hive going strong three years later. I set swarm traps out and have caught a couple swarms each year and that along with splits from my strongest hives has gotten me to 13 colonies. Without treatment so far.
> 
> Last year I had one hive that was very infested with mites and I was afraid it would not make it but they pulled through. That one is probably my weakest hive right now but still alive and building up nicely. When I saw the problems with this hive I got scared and checked my oldest and strongest hives for mites by cutting out drone comb and doing a count. The infested hive had mites in nearly 90% of the drone cells and many had 3 or more mites per cell. The stronger hives were in much better shape with one only showing about 10% infection rate.
> 
> ...


Your experience sounds remarkably similar to my own. Keep on posting, and welcome to the forum.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Notapro!
:thumbsup:
Please share and welcome!


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## WetWilly (Oct 4, 2014)

clyderoad said:


> The battle you are, and will be, fighting when you get more bees is between you and keeping your bees alive.
> All this effort you've expended in this fictitious and shallow battle with what other beekeepers do to manage their bees has gained you nothing.
> Learn the way of the honeybees, then you'll be getting somewhere.
> Remember: Crawl, Walk, then Run.


:applause::applause::applause::applause: Yessss Sense. You are so correct.

Are all 4000 Plus of your posts as pointless and tangental as this one?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

WetWilly said:


> :applause::applause::applause::applause: Yessss Sense. You are so correct.
> 
> Are all 4000 Plus of your posts as pointless and tangental as this one?


To some they may well be.

Still buying and killing bees?


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Well, since this went live again.... I am still not clear on what happened to we'd 11 packages the first year. From your explanation it sounds like you installed the packages and checked back the first warm day to find one or some already failing? What is the timeline in more detail? I am surprised at all the rants about whether or not the hives needed treatments without even knowing that timeline.... And I am curious how your trapping and tf bkeeping is going now? Good luck!


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Typo: was supposed to read ww's 11 packages (I still don't know how to edit...).


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I would be curious too. I am not TF, but am doing very limited treatments this year in an effort to weed out any hives that display no varroa resistance at all. So far I have lost 9 of 20 but am very encouraged by the strength I am observing in the remaining hives. I still expect to lose a few more but will rebuild from the survivors. I need a minimum of five to survive in order to be back at 20 by next June.


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

From what I understand about TF, is you need small cell foundation, and no other bees around. Most packages are from Georgia, and they won't do good up North anyway.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ifixoldhouses said:


> From what I understand about TF, is *you need small cell foundation, and no other bees around.* Most packages are from Georgia, and they won't do good up North anyway.


Randy Oliver demonstrates the opposite - none of these are required.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

arguably randy is a IPM resistance breeding program (treating for resistance) 
If he went TF at this stage its likely the mite bombs would overwhelm the 10% of his colonies that are showing resistance and the program would collapse. 

Latshaw, VP queens, Stevens Bee Co, etc and to some extent new river might be better examples as they are TF and often have to bring in package gennics as mite farms. The kefuss black hole hive is real (mites go in and disappear) but the genetics have to be controlled and maintained..
I heard a story this weekend about a high pollen collecting line and a high nectar collecting line matined by ASU that they used for research.. bit of a staff change/budget change/interest change and the lines were lost completely in a year, 30 generations of work down the tube!! 

It seems like most who have been successful in true TF use II stocks, or stocks that were II developed, and have reansibul mating control. but the "internet" fouces on the few outliers that more or less go luckey 

The catch doesn't seem to be getting TF stocks (call up VP or one of many others and place a order ) its matianing the traits in the apiary and not letting colonies with degraded traites form open mating become mite bombs, along with the mistaken idea that you have a reanisbul chance at being successful using random swarms or packages 



> I am not TF, but am doing very limited treatments this year in an effort to weed out any hives that display no varroa resistance at all


an odd way to go... We are now seeing 40% or so losses nationality, the "poor" genetics don't seem to be weeding themselves out despite massive yearly culling 

Stock selection by mite counts (and some true "breeding") has time, and time again proven valuable and is well documented
splitting what lives and chasing swarms has not, and has little documation of success.

mite counts (shakes, washes) are simple, easy, and give you an empirical ratio across hives of different sizes and development. 
One just need to start them all at the same baseline say a brood less OAV or 2 in the winter, or OA whille a group of nucs is broodless 
form there is a simple race to treatment threshold (3%-5% what ever) the 1st 70% or so to hit threshold and get treated win themselves a new queen form the last 10% or so to hit threshold and get treated, your breeding stock
the more hives you have the smaller percent of them become breeders with a target of using the top 2-3%.


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