# brood disease?



## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I just did an inspection on a nice strong hive today that appears to have a Brood Disease. I am a newer Beekeeper , so please take it easy on me if I am not explaining it properly. The course I am taking did a Lab on Brood diseases and I saw AFB in Late stages there. 

But what I am seeing is a very few amount of cells that are slightly uncapped with pin holes in them , and when I scratch them open , I see a rubbery brownish pupae with an undeveloped head . The hive has great brood patterns and is very strong as well . 
I am a little worried , because I have never dealt with a Brood disease other than Chalkbrood at the course I am taking , that I found when I went through a hive to assess it for issues.

Could this be Sacbrood ?

I did alert my Bee Health Inspector today Via email .

But I wanted to hear what your thoughts were ?

Do you need a picture or does this sound like something you have had before?

Thanks

Ben L


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Not enuf info.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Ben Little said:


> But what I am seeing is a very few amount of cells that are slightly uncapped with pin holes in them , and when I scratch them open , I see a rubbery brownish pupae with an undeveloped head . The hive has great brood patterns and is very strong as well .
> 
> Could this be Sacbrood ?


Sounds like Sac. Does the dead pupa appear to have a thin membraneous sac around it?


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I will pull out some tomorrow and take photos.


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## Rcard86 (Apr 27, 2013)

Hit em with some terramycin just in case, sounds like sac brood and somtimes bad varroa outbreaks can cause that


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Rcard86 said:


> Hit em with some terramycin just in case, sounds like sac brood and somtimes bad varroa outbreaks can cause that


Isn't Sac Brood a viral disease? If so, an antibiotic would not help. Seems an inspector once told me the best thing for SB was a good honey flow....


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## Rcard86 (Apr 27, 2013)

I was suggesting usning it as a preventative in case hes in the early stages of AFB


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## JStinson (Mar 30, 2013)

> I was suggesting usning it as a preventative in case hes in the early stages of AFB


Terramycin will clear up the symptoms for a few months. If he has AFB (and I am in no way suggesting that he does), he's got it. No preventing it at this point.


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## Rcard86 (Apr 27, 2013)

Ive had a few people tell me the bacteria is always present in the hives, and it only becomes active when nutrients run out or the hive becomes stressed


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rcard86 said:


> Hit em with some terramycin just in case, sounds like sac brood and somtimes bad varroa outbreaks can cause that


Not a good idea in my opinion until what is going on has been determined. At first it sounds like it could be AFB or sacbrood, though nothing about a waterfilled sac was mentioned. That's why I wrote not enuf info. Jumping from assumed diagnosis to treatment suggestions is beyond premature.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rcard86 said:


> I was suggesting usning it as a preventative in case hes in the early stages of AFB


If what he desscribes is AFB it is not early stages, it is time to burn.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rcard86 said:


> Ive had a few people tell me the bacteria is always present in the hives, and it only becomes active when nutrients run out or the hive becomes stressed


Yes, the spores seem to always be around, like the rhinovirus which causes the common cold. That doesn't mean you should always medicate to prevent its occurance.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I have Oxytet coming tuesday. But If it is the dreaded AFB I know it won't help.

There has been some testing done on shaking bees out into new equipment and new foundation , causing them to use up any spores or something to rid of the disease.

Anyone try this ?

I just hope it isn't AFB . But that is just how lucky I am .

Ben


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## JStinson (Mar 30, 2013)

Don't assume it is AFB yet. It could easily not be. 

What you're talking about is the shook swarm method. It's controversial. You still have to burn your equipment, but you save the bees. The only surefire medication for AFB is fire.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Sackbrood occurs in the prepupa stage, when the larvae straightens out with it's head facing the cell opening. The clear sack develops and fills with fluid and the head and front third of the prepupa raises up like the front of a boat. The prepupa are easy to remove with a match stick and if the sack is broken it is watery and granular. The cappings are often all removed by the adult bees or the cells are never capped. The color progression of the sick brood is white, light yellow, light brown with the head and front part darker brown.

This is a virus disease so no antibotic treatment will do an good. I have saved colonies by removing frames with diseased brood and replacing with capped brood from other colonies. I prefer to requeen as soon as I can.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Yeah the head was sticking up like that, and ones that I saw were a light brown, It's really windy and cold today , I can't open them today , but I will ASAP .

What causes sacbrood ? not saying it is that.

Ben


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JStinson said:


> Don't assume it is AFB yet. It could easily not be.
> 
> What you're talking about is the shook swarm method. It's controversial. You still have to burn your equipment, but you save the bees. The only surefire medication for AFB is fire.


"Try it. What could happen?" What could happen is like the guy in the video he doesn't have AFB. The guy in the video is too overcautious. Did he burn his pants and his whole bee suit? There are better Shook Swarm videos out there.

But, the first step is finding out what Ben Little's bees are suffering from.


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## JStinson (Mar 30, 2013)

> But, the first step is finding out what Ben Little's bees are suffering from.


I agree. I was not suggesting that Ben do this. He mentioned something about "shaking bees" to control AFB. I thought he might be interested to know about that method a little more.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Okay. I guess I was confused by your tag line.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

Hi Ben, I can relate to worrying about AFB. I haven't been at this that long and since AFB is such a daunting disease that can apparently hit anybody's bees even very strong bees that rob other colonies and something that someone wouldn't normally see in an apiary visit I can only be overwhelmed by the thought of ever getting it. Also my bees find any equipment in seconds so I would think it would be tough to keep from spreading.

I will say that you have some great beekeepers here helping you with your questions!!! They have helped me immensely and I hope to meet some of them face to face maybe one day like at the EAS conference or something When you send some pictures I'm sure it will help the online diagnosis. 

Could you call a bee inspector to come? I called one this year. The inspector came within a week. They took samples and sent them to USDA. It took 2 weeks to get the results and things turned out ok and it is free. It is nice to get an official diagnosis of good health in your bees. We love our bees, there is a big time investment in them, they are valuable, and one doesn't want diseases to spread so this is a great thing to seek info about and stop asap. If everyone stops AFB as soon as possible it will really help the bees.
Pictures will get you straight answers on this site. It has helped me.

I actually have a follow up question that I think is on topic with this that I am curious about. If all of the frames are burned but the boxes are just torched in a big way with one of these wouldn't that kill the AFB without completely destroying the equipment?

There is a video along with the product. I saw some other beekeepers torching the boxes with this type of torch in videos and I figured it was to kill spores.

http://www.harborfreight.com/propane-torch-with-push-button-igniter-91037.html

I wish you luck Ben!


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Thanks,
I actually did send an email to our Bee Health Inspector when I got back to the house.
I was out today feeding all the packages and it is cold out, so I won't have photos until it gets warmer.

Ben


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Ben Little said:


> Thanks,
> I actually did send an email to our Bee Health Inspector...


Good move.

Right now, this is the most important thing you can do. Get them looked at by someone local asap. Your bees and the bees of others around you can be saved by getting clear answers and taking the right action as soon as possible.

Adam


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Ben, while you are waiting for the inspector, you might appreciate this video on foul brood.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

I do believe I have figured out what the heck is wrong , it is Sacbrood. Here is some pictures we just took about 30 minutes ago.
Let me know if my diagnosis is right. Also the dead pupae does NOT rope out, so that should eliminate AFB right ?
http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/B...odproblem0017_zps580bb728.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

Also here is the ropey test, I know the Video is not high quality, we are using a regular camera and the large zoom is noisey. When I can afford it I am getting a good digital video camera: )
http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/B...odproblem0018_zpsf83d833d.mp4.html?sort=3&o=3

Thanks
Ben L


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## borada bee doc (Feb 6, 2010)

Hi all, 
I see alot of mention of visual descriptors for brood diseases and suggestions to treat for AFB but what about tests to rule out AFB? I did not see mention of testing for roping. Looking for scale is another clue though scale is also present in idiopathic brood death syndrome and absent in early cases of AFB. I like to do the Holst Milk Test and described by Randy Oliver. http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick-bees-part-18a-colony-collaspse-revisited/#holst-milk-test-b
"It is easy to make up a field AFB test kit consisting of a pair of tweezers, a vial of milk powder, and some clear glass vials for running the tests. At home, you can use liquid milk (skim preferred) diluted 1:4, again at the ratio of 1 scale per ½ tsp of diluted milk. When first trying this test, I suggest that you run an uninoculated vial of milk solution side by side for comparison."
Between testing larval goo for roping and scales for milk protein agglutination, the question of AFB should be ruled out. For those treating an active case of AFB, check with local beekeepers for the local prevalence of terramycin resistance. Tylan is probably a more certain treatment. Also, Ben, what are your mite counts?

Andrew


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

If you watch the video , I did the rope test and all the happened was the pupae exploded in a watery sac , no rope at all . The pictures also show the water sac around the dead pupae.
I have low levels of mites , and I am currently treating with Formic .


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Sacbrood, no doubt.

borada,
Over a span of 20 years of looking into beehives in NY State, visual field diagnosis of AFB is highly accurate. Better than 95% accurate. I don't recall ever getting a Negative reply from the Beltville Bee Lab. So, whereas the Holts Milk Test is definitive, visual observation and ropiness are first and foremost and highly accurate.

I don't know why the Holts Milk Test wasn't part of our standard procedures other than the time and mess and extra equipment to lug around in our private vehicles. I've seen the test done, but never done one myself. It wasn't part of our training.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Since Sacbrood is not treatable with antibiotics etc, from what I have read Sacbrood will most likely clear up once the hive is booming again towards summer. Requeening is a last resort for me, I don't have any Queens right now , I already bought Kona queens and made very strong splits with them in order to build up faster for a honey harvest from them.

So either my queen is not as hygenic as I thought or it is something that bees can just get ?  I know it is a virus , but all my reading points to a minor problem , unless it is like 20 % brood coverage , then I will have severe problems .

So what course of action would you all sugest ?

Thanks again

Ben L


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I never used to see sacbrood very often. It was only in someone else's hives, and only one here and there. In recent years I've see a lot of it. I assume it's the Varroa spreading it and maybe genetics contributing.


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## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Bee health inspector verified my findings , so I guess now I wait and see if it gets better ? I have no course of action.

What have any of you done to help hives that have Sacbrood ?

Just requeen?

Ben L


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

I've only had it once and I had it pretty bad.... through a lot of hives... I had it diagnosed by our State Inspector, so I am sure. All I did was wait for the honey flow... and it went away. Mites carry all kinds of viruses, so that is a pretty good guess as to the source. I have tightened up my miticide routine since then and have seen no SB since...


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