# Wifi Hive Scale Grant to Help Small Beekeeping Operations



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Take a look at the SC Beekeepers website. The have a project up and running. Perhaps you can coordinate??

http://www.scstatebeekeepers.org/


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## pom51 (Jul 28, 2008)

the person that is doing the scale project name is bobby dunn if you will call me I will give you his phone # my cell is 864 978 8982 my name is phillip marlow
thanks


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

What sort of price are you looking at for the unit?


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## toekneepea (Jul 7, 2010)

Speaking for myself, as a hobbyist, I would be interested in such a unit - perhaps a scaled down version without as many bells and whistles. Then again, if it's at a decent price point I might buy a standard unit.

Tony P.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

all well and good, but you fail to mention how it helps beekeepers make decisions. Its all well and good to know weights. but as a managment tool its worthless data. we as beeks don't do much to effect what the bees do, and we have little effect on it in any sort of timely fashion. 
I have several scales, other than learning when the nectar flows are strongest, its not much help. 

I hope its private grant money and not tax dollars.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

It's amazing what the 'Makers' out there can do with an Arduino and a wifi, etc., shield. 

I wouldn't be against applying this kind of technology to beekeeping issues, regardless of the funding source.

Good luck AJ.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

We have one hive on a temp, weight scale as part of the NASA "global warming' project. From a beekeeper perspective one of the best uses of such technology would be to give data from far away yards as to when to make a trip to add supers or pull honey. 

Saving time and gas is where its at...... 

Until there are sensors that can detect queenless hives and mite counts and relay the info to my smartphone then the usage is going to be limited. 

Data transmission via cell or satellite isn't free. Getting the right data back in a timely manner at minimal expense is pretty tough as of yet.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

If this is such a wonderful must have technology, it seems that an entrepreneur would build it and sell it for all that the market will bear. Commercial beeks who are operating remotely over long distances would indeed find this a paying tool. Curiosity seekers such as myself would buy one for a toy. Why should the government/me fund something you are going to profit from?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

There is a demand in this business for a product that would remotely detect, at the very least, hive weights and relay this information to a smart phone or the like. Make it workable, make it affordable (perhaps under $200 per location) together with the software to make it run smoothly and I will be one of the first customers and there would be plenty more beekeepers in line behind me I have no doubt. I see it as a business opportunity, is a grant needed for that?


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Jim, why in the devil would you pay that kind of money per hive to know what it weighs????


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Kickstarter is one of the world's largest crowdfunding sites available. I've seen some interesting niche technologies receive funding that way.

As for why would someone want remote sensing capabilities for beehives, I think that there can be a real advantage in knowing when it's time for a visit or an intervention.

Many other types of sensors can be supported by those type of programmable platforms.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

WlC, out here in the sticks we call it planning.....weight tells you nothing about status of the hive. if its dropping, is that from dearth or colony problem??? what level is problematic...?? if its gaining is that good?? maybe not.. queenless hives gain very well maybe its a sudden flow... got off your butt and out to the yards.... technology is making us lazy.... or maybe lazier is the right word


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Let's be pro innovation. 

Let them develop it and see what the benefits are.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

gmcharlie said:


> Jim, why in the devil would you pay that kind of money per hive to know what it weighs????


Well ideally I would set a pallet of 4 on a scale to get a better average of what is happening but even hand picking a single hive would give you some data which is far better than nothing. In my case we have locations spread over an area of roughly 3 to 4000 square miles. Currently I spend a lot of my weekends scouting bee yards looking for areas of concern (either full or empty) so that we can efficiently plan our coming week. I wouldn't be diagnosing individual hives rather looking at where the bees are or aren't working. No matter how hard I try we either under or over guess the status of some locations every year. It's really not a matter of being lazy but about efficiency and information.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

In your case, I accept that its more about efficiency. I can't see the cost/ time benefit though. It maybe because I have 6 scale hives and have realized they don't tell you much at all. In fact next year i won't mess with them at all. I would have thought you would be an a regular schedule with each yard? I have found that almost every time you put faith in the scale hive, it turns out to be the problem hive.... IE you watch weight it never gains and the 11 other hives in that yard are out of space.... or you run out with supers only to find out its the only one gaining...

Thanks for the reply.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Schedule? We have over 100 locations. Sure we record the dates we work each yard but trying to keep current on the status of each one is virtually impossible. One might fill up in a week while another might never fill up. It's been my dream for years to have such a system that can give us constant updates. That dosent even address when we are 1000 miles away wondering what is happening. $200 a yard with honey at $2.00+ per lb would be money well spent in my mind.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I think there is certainly a market for a such and product. In my mind it must be cellular-based, or you're going to seriously restrict your customer base. In my mind, Wi-fi only is geared towards hobby beekeepers, which will restrict your market. It needs to be tough enough to withstand rough beekeeping. Some level of calibration (temp cal is a given). Of course sensors will need to be resistant against creep, etc.

In terms of competitiveness as a grant, well, I think that's a bit of a stretch. Seems like similar systems are already being developed, so you would likely need to incorporate a measure of uniqueness that I don't see in your outline above.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

There is such a thing as a cellular shield for programmable products like the arduino.

You still have to provide a sim card though.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

There are some units in europe that use cell phone technology instead of WIFI , that would be the ticket if you're not already within 500 feet of the hive. 
Of course the outyard would have to have a cell signal.

Saw the EU units a year or so ago for over $1000 each.


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## Linton (Dec 22, 2013)

Responding to your proposal and the respondents so far.

You state that you expect to be able to determine many colony-related events from the data and I agree with you, yet some respondents, who are already users of hive scales, have not found much value in them. The difference in results may arise from the fineness of the readings and/or their frequency, or from the beekeepers being unable to correlate scale readings to events. 

This suggests to me that helping beekeepers understand and interpret the readings would be a productive research activity. Also, providing detail on what can and cannot be determined about the state of the colony at various levels and frequencies of measurement (for example the difference between 1 reading per day to the nearest pound, vs. a reading every few minutes to the nearest gram).

Also, you mention that you have not incorporated the effects of weather, which will definitely affect weight and its interpretation. This would be another research question.

You might also research the effect of beekeeper manipulations on the weight and the effort it takes in adjusting weight values to account for the these manipulations.

Also you note that you think putting the scale under one average colony could tell the beekeeper something about the state of the apiary; I have heard the same recommendation from a commercial beekeeper, yet one respondent pointed out that no hive is average and the beekeeper will inevitably pick a non-representative colony to put on the scale. I think this issue is worth addressing in your research. I have two suggestions. First, is to figure out how many scales are needed to get a good bet on the state of an apiary, a representative sample, given a specific number of hives in it. Second is to figure out how to put scales under each of these hives, gather up all the weight data from all the scales in the apiary into one receiver/transmitter and send it onward. Having a transmitter for each hive is a non-starter. 

In fact, determining how to gather data from multiple hives per apiary and transmit it economically may be the research problem. Keep in mind that there are many other sensing modalities that could also be added to each hive (see http://colonymonitoring.com), and that gathering these, per hive, and transmitting them, per apiary, is not a solved problem, either in terms of power supply, data reduction, or data transfer.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Having a scale hive since hte 40's, I sure seems like they are more for the amusement of the beekeeper and his ego than actual data gathering.

I can comprehend how more accuracy may reveal a value previously not perceived.

As per Mr. Lyon's comments, IF this product could accurately predict the needs of an outyard, then I can see it's value, but for us stubborn Germans that keep a tight scadule, the only value would be telling us what to put on the truck that morning.

WiFi???? HHHHHHAAAAAAAAA. Do you know where commercial beeyards are? Not next to a Starbucks. We do not get cell reception in all of our yards.

Crazy Roland


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## mdax (Apr 29, 2013)

So I'm confused. 
If you want wifi why not just wire a pressure sensor into an electric imp and call it a day for under $30...if you need remote use xbee modules communicating to a base raspberry pi.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The issue of WiFi at a remote yard is easily solved if cell reception is available. A wireless router like this:
http://www.tp-link.com/en/products/details/?categoryid=218&model=TL-MR3040
accepts a USB 3G/4G cellular modem, then performs as a router and WiFi access point combined. I bought one at Walmart for about $50. It will run on its internal battery, but normally I keep it plugged into wall power. With only 5 watts of power draw, it could run for quite while on a deep cycle battery.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

We have these available and in use in New Zealand already.
They are mainly used during the honey flow in remote areas.

http://hivemind.co.nz

I know a couple of beekeepers who are using them and are finding them useful for determining when to travel out and add more supers rather than wasting a day for no reason


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## villagefool (Apr 17, 2012)

First, to all the naysayers, You're probably right - we've been working with bees for about 50,000 years so surely there is nothing more to learn. Putting a computer in a hive is as ridiculous as putting a computer in a doorknob. Thanks. Now please, leave us alone - move along, nothing to see here ...

Folks, 

You might want to check out http://hivetool.org/w/index.php?title=Hive_Management for a list of weight curves and their possible interpretations. 

I work for a commercial beekeeper in the southeast US. My boss is 60. He started in commercial beekeeping when he was 18. I am also 60 but I started hobby beekeeping when I was 50. My boss just "knows". He knows when there are enough drones flying in the spring to start splitting (when the apple trees are blooming), he knows when to stimulate with feed to build the colonies up, he knows when to treat, when to split, when to super, when to move.

I have not developed that 6th sense so I must rely on my instruments. You don't need a scale under every hive. You don't need a scale in every yard. A few scattered around the state at different latitudes, climate zones and elevations can tell you what is happening.

What have I learned from scale hives?

1. That a double deep is probably bigger than necessary around here and "wastes" honey - they don't need 100 lbs of honey in the brood chamber to make it through the winter. So, I've switched to double 8 frame deeps (and for honey supers), or 1 1/2 deeps (a deep and a shallow) for the brood chamber.

2. I take my hives 90 miles south for the winter. It's very easy to tell when they are starting to build up (bringing in water to dilute the honey to feed the brood). So I know when it's time to start paying attention and start driving - saves time, gas and colonies (fewer starve).

3, I'm not familiar with the nectar flows 90 miles to the south. I was surprised to get a 90 lb gain in the last 3 weeks in March in 2012. 
http://hivetool.org/w/index.php?title=Hive_Management#Spring_Nectar_Flow
I went to the local beekeepers association meeting (first Monday in April) and listened to the mentors saying "It's time to put your supers on." I looked around the room and wondered if I was the only one that just had a 90 lb gain.

4. Turns out that there are two other nectar flows there in May and June. I made more honey in 2013 by keeping my hives south a month longer and moving them north just in time to catch the sourwood flow.

5. I was not surprised that the nectar flow was 3 weeks later in 2013 than 2012 because Growing Degree Day was calculated for the hives, compared to weight gain in the prior year, and correctly predicted that the 2013 spring flow would be 3 weeks later.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growing_degree_day. 

6. I was surprised that the fall nectar flow lasted 10 days longer in one hive that was just 5 miles from another. While 10 days (and 10 lbs of honey) may not seem like much, I believe that it validates the idea that this technology can help locate optimal yard locations.

I'm probably wrong, but I suspect that the children of our children's kids (if there are any bees left) will wonder how great granddad kept bees without a computer in each hive. There is a story that circulates the internet that probably dates from the 1990s:

"I went to my first computer conference at the New York Hilton about 20
years ago. When somebody there predicted the market for microprocessors
would eventually be in the millions, someone else said, "Where are they
all going to go? It's not like you need a computer in every doorknob!"

Years later, I went back to the same hotel. I noticed the room keys had
been replaced by electronic cards you slide into slots in the doors.

There was a computer in every doorknob.
-- Danny Hillis"


So, in the middle of July, when the boss asks, "What do you think, should we put on another round of supers?"
(Putting supers on 500 hives take a few days, is hard work and if you are wrong, creates a lot of work handling and extracting half full frames.) I still don't have the right answer, but I can say "The flow stopped in the valley last Thursday but there is still 5 lbs a day coming in on the ridge tops."


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Let's get one thing straight here. Villagefool, is no Village fool.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Ah Beans, and all this time I thought if you kept space on them till fall you were good to go... Guess I am the village fool....
You can use any tools you see fit. Tried scales... not much if any value, lots of effort. No power in outyards, screwing around witha rasberry or whatever is a LOT more work and time than keeping track with visits. I think your going to find you spend more time babysitting the tech than the bees. 2 supers is a lot cheaper than a scale. But hey it up to choice. if enough people like em great! send these guys some money and get em started.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

gmcharlie said:


> Ah Beans, and all this time I thought if you kept space on them till fall you were good to go... Guess I am the village fool....


Hey, I am not implying that you are. 
This is my perspective as someone who gets spread pretty thin at times. I have a finite number of supers. I get frustrated when I have driven 40 miles to put on those two supers per hive when I find that the bees havent done much. I get even more frustrated when I find a yard 40 miles in the other direction a week later that filled up because I didnt get there in time with supers. On the "flip side" we surprisingly had some hives (pulled earlier and supered back) that starved this fall in an area that normally sees at least an adequate late summer/early fall honeyflow, that loss would have made a nice downpayment on some sort of monitoring system. For me its about efficient allocation of both resources and time. I only have so many supers (in our case its a little over 3 mediums per hive) and so much time (we are doing what this weekend honey?  ). With all that said, though, my take is despite the fact that all the technology is in place, the current cost efficiency just isnt there. 
I will take issue with your assertion, though, that scale hives tell you very little. Sure occasionally a good hive will go bad on you and skew the results but by and large if you choose a good first year queen that is on the grow you are going to learn something meaningful. 
Sorry to the op that I have steered the original thread about wifi into the realm of monitoring remote locations but, as you can tell, a workable and affordable way to monitor hives from afar has long been a dream of mine.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

No worries at all Jim.. In your case it may work out. I totally agree with that. I belive that for 95% (or more) its another shiny fishing lure..... FOr the bass pro circut shiny lures are great, for the rest of us they sit in a box.......


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

gmcharlie,

You asked why would you spend that kind of money. 

I must say that I have only spend a few dollars. But I was able to get a full season's data that someone nearby collected. I have to say that I spent hours & hours looking over that data and learned A LOT about our bees, their habits, when they swarmed, and why they swarmed.

To someone running a large number of hives it could be a great investment.

Fuzzy


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

So just what did you learn??


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Fuzzy said:


> and why they swarmed. Fuzzy


You learned why they swarmed? How?


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## alexanderkjones (Jun 11, 2013)

Phillip thanks for the tip I will call this week!


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Ironically, a few hours ago I ordered a digital scale so I could start to build my own monitoring system. I want to start with just a battery operated scale with manual weight checks every day to start with. Then add a raspberry pi to log the data for me, then add a solar cell to power it, and eventually have it start sending the data to the computer for me (rather than me having to go out and upload the data once a week or so). 



jim lyon said:


> Make it workable, make it affordable (perhaps under $200 per location) together with the software to make it run smoothly and I will be one of the first customers and there would be plenty more beekeepers in line behind me I have no doubt.


When I started sourcing the components out, I had no idea it would cost this much. $200 will barely get you a decent electronic scale that's accurate and (somewhat) weatherproof. Most scales I saw that could handle that sorta thing (including having alternative AC and battery power, USB or other computer hook up, be 400+ lbs capacity, and appear to be able to withstand long weigh applications) were $170-500. I ordered the CPWplus200 that hivetool.org recommended. That's just to get you started (at $176). Other components would include a car battery to power the unit ($80), cables ($20 guess), raspberry pi (computer system that logs it all, $36), solar cell (including inverter and cables, likely $140), some type of weather proof box (unknown price), and temp and humidity sensors ($20 each, if you want two, although some may want four, two for inside and two for outside). You could add a rain gauge for $65. End price would run you over $500 (not counting the rain gauge), and that's with you building it yourself. That of course does not include the satellite and/or cell phone and/or wifi transmitting equipment. That I know little about (as if I knew tons about the rest of it, lol). You could cut out the solar charger, and plan on switching out the batteries every so often (I have no idea how often). But after two change outs, you've already bought a solar charger. Without the charger, there is a chance you've mis-guessed on the life of the battery. If so, it goes dead and you're out of luck.

I'd love to see something like this come down to $200. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.


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## alexanderkjones (Jun 11, 2013)

I'm incredibly impressed by the amount of knowledge and perspectives in this group. I would love to get you all in a room and and get an active dialogue going but given what we have to work with I'm going to do my best here. I'll use some key quotes from the conversation to guide my responses. Here we go...



jim lyon said:


> There is a demand in this business for a product that would remotely detect, at the very least, hive weights and relay this information to a smart phone or the like. Make it workable, make it affordable (perhaps under $200 per location) together with the software to make it run smoothly and I will be one of the first customers and there would be plenty more beekeepers in line behind me I have no doubt. I see it as a business opportunity, is a grant needed for that?


Jim, you are absolutely half right in your assumption that this is a great business opportunity. The Beekeeping Market is comprised of about 250 thousand beekeepers across the US, 90% of which are Non-Commercial Backyard Hobbyists. Interestingly enough they only own approx. 10% of the managed colonies out of there. The commercial market only has a market value of about $250 Million by some reports and as we all know margins are tight. We believe this technology could provide a benefit to beekeepers both commercial and hobbyist but the scale of the market does not allow any type of economies of scale in manufacturing which is why the majority of these devices on the market are $1,000 or more. This is also why development hasn't been explored to make it cheaper, we're doing that and we're interested in helping beekeepers along the way.



rhaldridge said:


> What sort of price are you looking at for the unit?


Ray, currently they cost $300 to build and we're interested getting prototypes out there at cost. Feel free to PM me if interested.



mdax said:


> So I'm confused.
> If you want wifi why not just wire a pressure sensor into an electric imp and call it a day for under $30...if you need remote use xbee modules communicating to a base raspberry pi.


Mdax, that's exactly what we've done, we love Imps but honestly can't get behind the Pi. Imp's offer all the cloud computing advantages where Pi's just haven't gotten to yet without major development time. Also, if you have a bill of materials for a $30 hive scale please send it along! We're currently using 4 $30 medical grade weight sensors, our own board, and a machined aluminum chassis. I'm not giving you a hard time, this is an invitation if you'd like to chat about utilizing less expensive components. Thanks for the feedback.



Linton said:


> This suggests to me that helping beekeepers understand and interpret the readings would be a productive research activity. Also, providing detail on what can and cannot be determined about the state of the colony at various levels and frequencies of measurement (for example the difference between 1 reading per day to the nearest pound, vs. a reading every few minutes to the nearest gram).
> 
> In fact, determining how to gather data from multiple hives per apiary and transmit it economically may be the research problem. Keep in mind that there are many other sensing modalities that could also be added to each hive (see http://colonymonitoring.com), and that gathering these, per hive, and transmitting them, per apiary, is not a solved problem, either in terms of power supply, data reduction, or data transfer.


Linton, two incredible points you made here. First, you are exactly on point with our philosophy, we don't really care what the weight is we care what it means and we want to build useful reports that get to the point. Would love to get your feedback on some of our designs, shoot me a PM if you'd be interested.

Second, The economy of transmitting data is a major development issue. We see a major potential in connecting several hives through a network of lower cost radios to a single cellular module. Our current estimates are that it is entirely possible to connect 100 devices to one cellular module that requires a $10/month cell plan. The highest barrier to entry here is the FCC certification costs, $30k, to design our own system. The technology is there, it's just a matter of working the system. But it's definitely on our minds.



gmcharlie said:


> all well and good, but you fail to mention how it helps beekeepers make decisions. Its all well and good to know weights. but as a managment tool its worthless data. we as beeks don't do much to effect what the bees do, and we have little effect on it in any sort of timely fashion.
> I have several scales, other than learning when the nectar flows are strongest, its not much help.
> 
> I hope its private grant money and not tax dollars.


Gmcharlie, thank you for being the heckler here. My favorite clients are the one's that give us the hardest time. You hit a very potent point, without timely data this is absolutely worthless, that's why grain scales are not that effective in making management decisions. We're specifically looking to track minute by minute fluctuations to give you characteristics of the flow in real time wether you're 1 mile or 100 miles away from your yard. As I mentioned above, we believe this is a service to beekeeping community as well as a potential for a small business venture so we are going for tax payer grant funding but only in economic innovation grants. I hope that takes the sting out of it. Bad pun.... I would love to have you as part of the testing group if we receive this grant. Thanks for your feedback.



Fuzzy said:


> I was able to get a full season's data that someone nearby collected. I have to say that I spent hours & hours looking over that data and learned A LOT about our bees, their habits, when they swarmed, and why they swarmed.


Fuzzy, this is a great piece of information that I think many people don't realize. Our goal here would be to help beekeepers share the information their gathering with other beekeepers so that even those unable to buy into the device could still benefit from the knowledge of when flows and dearths are happening in their area. We also see an opportunity to give device owners a kickback financially depending on the number of subscribers they have watching their scale. As you said yourself, you paid a small fee for the data and we bet most would pay a small annual fee to listen in on a network of these devices in their area. 



Roland said:


> As per Mr. Lyon's comments, IF this product could accurately predict the needs of an outyard, then I can see it's value, but for us stubborn Germans that keep a tight scadule, the only value would be telling us what to put on the truck that morning.
> 
> WiFi???? HHHHHHAAAAAAAAA. Do you know where commercial beeyards are? Not next to a Starbucks. We do not get cell reception in all of our yards.


Roland, from what my programmers say who spend much more time in starbucks than any human or animal should, they do sound like nice places and I say why not have hives on the roofs. But honestly, we have chosen to start with wifi because the cellular service fees are cost prohibitive for a feasibility study on this technology. It would be a simple replacement in the future and as others have mentioned there are several cellular wifi hotspots for those committed to getting this in their yard today. Also with the majority of beekeepers actually having their hives within range of their homes as hobbyist it seems like the best approach to start.



villagefool said:


> I have not developed that 6th sense so I must rely on my instruments. You don't need a scale under every hive. You don't need a scale in every yard. A few scattered around the state at different latitudes, climate zones and elevations can tell you what is happening.
> 
> 2. I take my hives 90 miles south for the winter. It's very easy to tell when they are starting to build up (bringing in water to dilute the honey to feed the brood). So I know when it's time to start paying attention and start driving - saves time, gas and colonies (fewer starve).
> 
> ...


Villagefool, thank you for your incredible response. It never ceases to amaze me when someone speaks from the heart, understanding the players in the conversation, and makes a logical and wise case that we can all appreciate. Again, you've seen the aspect of this that we're most excited about, we all don't need hive scales but if there were a network of them that kept us as informed as weather stations do today about rainstorms we could be in a very different place in beekeeping. To see how you've used this technique to make your management more efficient is exactly the type or proof we were hoping to see. And that Danny Hillis quote is amazing, I would feel confident in saying that these types of technologies will most definitely be available to the beekeeping industry. The question is wether it takes 5 years or 50, all the components are here now it's simply waiting for the investment and demand.



Vance G said:


> If this is such a wonderful must have technology, it seems that an entrepreneur would build it and sell it for all that the market will bear. Commercial beeks who are operating remotely over long distances would indeed find this a paying tool. Curiosity seekers such as myself would buy one for a toy. Why should the government/me fund something you are going to profit from?


Vance, I'm hoping that I've made the case for the usefulness this could have for the beekeeping community for both hobbyists and commercial folk as a national service tracking nectar flows across the country. I also hope I have made the case that the probability of this happening without support from the community is small. There's very few of us relatively and it's not nearly as profitable to develop this technology as on might think. Besides, you fund all the other shenanigans the government is up to why not throw a few pennies to help a few crazy beekeepers?



jim lyon said:


> Well ideally I would set a pallet of 4 on a scale to get a better average of what is happening but even hand picking a single hive would give you some data which is far better than nothing. In my case we have locations spread over an area of roughly 3 to 4000 square miles. Currently I spend a lot of my weekends scouting bee yards looking for areas of concern (either full or empty) so that we can efficiently plan our coming week. I wouldn't be diagnosing individual hives rather looking at where the bees are or aren't working. No matter how hard I try we either under or over guess the status of some locations every year. It's really not a matter of being lazy but about efficiency and information.


Jim, I would be really interested in working with you on such a solution if you're interested.



AstroBee said:


> In terms of competitiveness as a grant, well, I think that's a bit of a stretch. Seems like similar systems are already being developed, so you would likely need to incorporate a measure of uniqueness that I don't see in your outline above.


And finally, AstroBee, fantastic handle by the way. What makes our initiative unique is that we're doing this for beekeepers. Every system available is well over $900, not including data services from cell and analysis charges, and there has been little effort to present this information to the larger beekeeping community. By using low-high tech solutions and simple things like wifi from your house, we could all have an ear to the flows and increase our productivity with a few thousand devices spread across the country. The reason this hasn't taken off is because no one is making these things for the right reasons, we'd like to change that. I want to see every beekeeper succeed even in tough times like this and we have the means to make that goal easier through technology. That's my motivation.

Looking forward to the next round! Please Post here or feel free to PM me for specific info thanks!

- AJ


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Specialkayme said:


> I'd love to see something like this come down to $200. But I don't see that happening anytime soon.


Nor do I, until then it will just be a dream. I remember reading the Dick Tracy cartoon strip as a kid and dreaming how cool it would be to have a 2 way wrist radio. Check it out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qN7u6jD_hDk
If you had one now it would be the laugh of the party.


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## alexanderkjones (Jun 11, 2013)

jim lyon said:


> Nor do I, until then it will just be a dream. I remember reading the Dick Tracy cartoon strip as a kid and dreaming how cool it would be to have a 2 way wrist radio. Check it out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qN7u6jD_hDk
> If you had one now it would be the laugh of the party.


Jim, you find me 5,000 beekeepers I'll build you 5,000 scales at $200. It's totally doable, it's all about economies of scale.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

My speciality is production, not sales.  My suggestion if you are really serious, is build a prototype, take a hard look at the numbers, if you feel it's something feasible then head to some of the big conventions and see what the response is. That all costs money (your money) of course. You won't find 5,000 beekeepers interested, but you might find 50 that run an average of 5,000 hives. I have my doubts it's feasible at this point though. Nobody is going to be interested in a cell plan for every location plus at the very least a few hundred dollars worth of hardware. That's your challenge. Prove me wrong.


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## alexanderkjones (Jun 11, 2013)

Your On 










jim lyon said:


> My speciality is production, not sales.  My suggestion if you are really serious, is build a prototype, take a hard look at the numbers, if you feel it's something feasible then head to some of the big conventions and see what the response is. That all costs money (your money) of course. You won't find 5,000 beekeepers interested, but you might find 50 that run an average of 5,000 hives. I have my doubts it's feasible at this point though. Nobody is going to be interested in a cell plan for every location plus at the very least a few hundred dollars worth of hardware. That's your challenge. Prove me wrong.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

AKJ

Getting a scale. Available easily
Getting data collected from multiple scales and to a hub in a yard. Doable.
Getting the data from the hub in the remote yards to the beekeeper within the economic parameters of current expense on a massive scale. Pretty tough.*
Aggregating the data and delivering it to a beekeeper in a useful fashion. Doable but not currently on the market. 

See as an example. http://hivemind.co.nz/order?your_sa...ays=6&distance_to_site=450&price_per_kg=$3.30

*These guys in NZ are out of their mind if they think the market will support a lot of beekeepers at what they are charging. In the US only 1/4% of the yards would use such a product and service at their current expense structure. 

For remote yards we need yards monitored through something like Iridium's SBD service at $18 a month. This would cover anywhere in the world ( as opposed to cell) and is within a cost benefit analysis if they would let beeks sign up on a month to month plans without incurring reinstatement fees.

AKJ...........I"m not quite sure you realize the correlation between the remoteness of many yards ( smell lack of cell service here or even long distance wifi off of towers) and the usefulness of this type of tool!!!!!!


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## mdax (Apr 29, 2013)

I don't think that accurate weight measurements are necessary for the users of your idea, specifically it doesn't matter that it shows 20 or 25 pounds, but rather an increase or decrease over time.

I understand you are trying to create something industrially robust, however here is how you do it for around $54...which would probably be a better path for your target market of home/hobby beekeepers.

Obviously you could save a ton by using a different imp, purchase through digikey in volume....but you get the idea.

Load Sensor $9.95








https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10245

Electric Imp $29.95








https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11395

Impee $12.95








https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11400

Basically just measure resistance to the sensor and output to something like xively.com


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## alexanderkjones (Jun 11, 2013)

Mdax, great thought process here. Our first prototype actually consisted of exactly what you've shown here. Works great once you add an op amp and complete the Wheatstone bridge from the china cheap load load cells, but the actual price even in volume was only 15% less expensive than manufacturing our own industrial grade application. Also, all these electronics do need to go into something that a hive can sit on....

Again, our main business is the industrial market, we'd like to take our technology and help beekeepers so we're looking at options to scale down. Thanks for the feedback.

If you're interested in building your own scale I'd be more than happy to guide you along the path. We've found some key components that would help you with the issues you'd run into with analog stability in this setup. Let me know if I can help.



mdax said:


> Impee $12.95
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I read through this thread and realized that you are missing the boat in a huge way. My daily job is as a telecommunications systems engineer. I specialize in manipulating data to turn it into "content". What you don't have is a way to aggregate and manipulate the raw data. Just an off the cuff suggestion, but write an excel macro that retrieves the hive monitor info and saves it into a spreadsheet with a time stamp.

http://www.controlbyweb.com/accessories/humidity_sensor.html

Just getting raw data piped in several times a day is pretty much useless so take this to the logical conclusion and make it into a remote monitoring solution with a hive weight sensor, temperature and humidity sensor, carbon dioxide sensor, solar intensity sensor, and maybe even a remote camera that can be activated and take a look around. Make it modular so a person can customize to their own needs. Aggregate the data into an application that can help with decision making at the level Jim Lyon would love to have. And yes, I am going way beyond the scope you visualize at this time. Think it through and see how much of this makes sense and then make it part of the initial solution to see how much it can be used.


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

GMcharlie,

What was learned: To begin with, I spent 40 yrs collecting and analyzing data as a major part of my professional life. So, that experience enabled me to get more out of the data that some people might.
As for the data, along with the weight once a minute, there were temperature measurements, date indicators as well as observations of rain/sun by hour and what plants were in bloom within walking distance. 
a.	The hive gained a lot more weight, sooner than most people think
b.	In peak bloom periods, those folks with only 1 or 2 supers on will find that there is insufficient room available to store the nectar brought in by a strong hive. That means that they are forced to store the nectar in the brood area and begin swarm prep.
c.	Was able to determine net gain per day
d.	Found that the hive threw off an 11 lb swarm one day and it returned to the hive within an hour. It then threw off another 11lb swarm two days later to leave for good.
e.	Due to a period of inclimate weather, the bees were not able to fly for 4 consecutive days. I was able to determine how much food a hive with aprox 20 lbs of bees, consumes per day. 
f.	You can also see peaks and valleys in nectar flow based upon bloom

Fuzzy


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

AlexanderKJones.

You still around? I'm rigging up something like that for my two hives, and I certainly see the point. The idea of having four load-cell feet is the correct approach, and inexpensive bathroom scales have the right sensors for the job. My hives will be in the front yard, with hardwired sensors, but most beeks would appreciate some sort of wireless connection, I'm sure.

I don't see hive weight by itself as the right approach, though you can certainly get a lot out of it. My own intent is to be able to add channels for temperature, and some sort of activity monitor. Options for other sensors should be available. I'm nuts enough to consider throwing in some serious research instruments.

I would think you should also adopt an off-the-shelf weather station to add to the data. Hive weight by itself in some .csv file is not much good without weather records. In fact, it should be a fairly good one with a sunshine monitor. I anticipate mine will have a proper pyranometer. One weather station per bee yard would do.


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## alexanderkjones (Jun 11, 2013)

Phoebee, hey we're still around  If you dig into the weight data by pinging the load cells throughout the day every 5 minutes or so you'll find a lot of activity data, depending on your resolution you may be able to build a bee counter for your foraging populations.

Would love to hear what you're doing with the weather station, we've been using wunderground weather data streams to but we're wondering if a more localized solutions would be better. Let me know what you find!


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Still shopping so far. I want one to monitor my solar heating and power performance, with extra channels for a couple of home-built pyranometers.

The first modified bottom board is running a temperature stability test in the garage right now. It does show some temperature drift, but not bad.

My problem at the moment is that I can't slow the data acquisition system down below 1 Hz due to some silly GUI limit. It makes too much data.


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