# Bee indecision and starvation



## laurelmtnlover (May 29, 2009)

Why do bees not move toward the honey stores in cold weather, and starve?
Does this happen in feral hives? Would this be in a manmade hive that is too cold, or moist? Should all the bars be moved around in the fall so they move in one direction only, with say the bars of brood and bees in the back of the hive if the entrance is in the front? With the honey all toward the front of the hive?
I realize I will get lots of different anwers, but I would like to weigh all, and thanks..
Will this warm spell hurt them, increase their feeding needs?


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

laurelmtnlover said:


> Why do bees not move toward the honey stores in cold weather, and starve?
> QUOTE]
> 
> Bees do some strange things... some will eat up middle frames to the top and die... some call that- Chimney or Chimeying (not sure if Chimeying is even a word-I doubt it..lol)


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

laurelmtnlover said:


> Why do bees not move toward the honey stores in cold weather, and starve?
> Will this warm spell hurt them, increase their feeding needs?


Had someone come in my office so I posted the last before I left this computer to go out front.....

Sometimes I know in the spring, you will find so much stores left in the hive and then go back in a week or two and it will be gone. So will it hurt... well in the spring, maybe... but we beekeepers in the north look forward to the January cleansing flight..... It usally happens here in January. However, last year in 09 we didn't see the warmer weather until Feb. So maybe this is a good sign that the weather this Spring and Summer will be better than last years. 

The warm weather in Jan. never seems to change their eathing habits, partly I think is because the nights are cold and as soon as that sun goes down in late afternoon, they are back in and clustering again.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

laurelmtnlover said:


> Why do bees not move toward the honey stores in cold weather, and starve?


What makes you think they don't know where they put their honey?


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## laurelmtnlover (May 29, 2009)

"What makes you think they don't know where they put their honey? "

I just read of a hive that starved next to their stores of near 80lbs of honey.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

If they are that dumb, I would put it down to natural selection.


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

laurelmtnlover;496254
I just read of a hive that starved next to their stores of near 80lbs of honey.[/QUOTE said:


> That happens, and no one really knows why... Someone that I know that had about 600 hives or so until he hurt his back, said last Wednesday at our meeting that they would have them eat up two or three frames right up through 2 or 3 supers and stop and die. I am wondering if they freeze to death up there.... But like I told them, it happens and some bees must be dumb. Maybe it is natures way of weeding out the dumb ones...


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## laurelmtnlover (May 29, 2009)

buckbee said:


> If they are that dumb, I would put it down to natural selection.


So you are not taking any other factors into account, ie, moisture, over ventilation, wind, cold, disease, or other stressors?


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

You didn't describe any of those factors. If you want a diagnosis, give us all the symptoms.


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## laurelmtnlover (May 29, 2009)

I'm not looking for a diagnosis. Just a discussion. Still learning. Thanks everyone.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I know if the temps are too low, They can't break cluster & move to another frame. If they did the cold would kill them.


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## kldreyer (Sep 8, 2009)

QUOTE=kldreyer;496239]So* BUMMED*!
First day decent enough to take a peek at my one and only hive--italians, and it was a sad sight: piles of dead, and lots of little rear ends hanging out of cells. Still LOTS of honey (probably at least 80 pounds), and some of it in comb just adjacent to the starved-out frames. Some capped brood sitting there, and what looks like the attempt at a queen cell in the middle of a frame.
No obvious signs of disease or attack.
We had an extended spell of cold, but nothing too freaky for this part of the country.
Guess the first year didn't go so well.
Suggestions for next? Should I try a hardier strain? 
I'm going to go have a beer and find a dog to kick. (kidding about the dog...)
Trina[/QUOTE]
Different thread, same questions: why did this happen?


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## raosmun (Sep 10, 2009)

kl: I am a bit north of you. Too miserable to take a peek yet. However; I tryed a package of Russians a several years ago, they were well established, more than enough honey. They were out flying on a good day in late Jan, then on a better day a few weeks later. They were done, little butts sticking out of comb and 50/60# of honey left. Go figure, it just happens.
O, myself another keeper and our mentor (a 60 year vet. BK) took an exam. and found nothing unusial, they just starved. :scratch: to this day!


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## kldreyer (Sep 8, 2009)

Raosmun--
Thanks for the info.
Try, try again.... never say die!
Trina


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Usually because they have a patch of brood to keep warm...


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## kldreyer (Sep 8, 2009)

what a way to go...


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

kldreyer said:


> QUOTE=kldreyer;496239]So* BUMMED*:I'm going to go have a beer and find a dog to kick. (kidding about the dog...)


 Do you wear a wife beater shirt... :lpf: Oh you are not a guy... well hmmm so do you???????? lol


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

When I lose a hive in winter, I always look at it this way; Frames are drawn out for the next ones I put in there. It will give them a jump start ahead of others that have to draw out the frames. 

You will find the ratio for winter lose is about 10% of your bees. I lost none last year and I was lucky. I fed some of them until the feed had to be taken away. Even gave the strong ones a little Sugar water. This year, those bees didn't get any. Just the new hives. 

Did I need to... probably not, but I wanted to make sure. Most this year, of my 58 hives, didn't need anything. :applause:


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

laurelmtnlover said:


> I'm not looking for a diagnosis. Just a discussion. Still learning. Thanks everyone.


Suppost the winter cluster had been larger. Would they then have been in contact with the honey and not starved?


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## beeking1 (Jan 22, 2010)

There are many factors. However, from the Bluegrass Bee sponsored forum in Frankfort, Ky last March 2009, a noted expert gave a presentation addressing some of these issues. *Assuming* they have laid down adequate stores of honey, the questions then move to *temperature*,* hive **location* (are they on top of a hill where the wind regularly blow 200 mph from the NW? and the windchills are -200F  , *hive ventilation* e.g. *screened bottoms versus bottom boards*, *the inner cover flipped over*, *insulation of the entire beehive* e.g. do you use water resistant foiled/plastic bubble insulation, *sugar solution 1:1 in a DIVISION *feeder and NOT a hive top feeder, *breed* of bees, *chemicals* used during the season [if any] etc.)

If you have ever tried to look at honey stores in the middle of winter, you can easily see why bees would find that it is NOT an easy task to open and utilize their hard earned stores. 
We have measured temperatures INSIDE the hive at various locations with an inexpensive INSIDE/OUTSIDE thermometer from Lowes and found that exterior insulation of a hive can DRAMATICALLY :thumbsup: raise the inside temperature. This gives bees access to honey/sugar solution and protects against the wind and the wind chill. A cold wind hitting the hives' sides can chill the interior of a hive in no time. The rest is history.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> Suppost the winter cluster had been larger. Would they then have been in contact with the honey and not starved?


I lost one so far this year. Lots of honey & the dead cluster was a couple of inches away. When I started feeding it heavily this fall, it was small. So, should I have added a frame or two of brood in the fall, or maybe combined?


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## beeking1 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sorry, I forgot to address the issue of cluster size which is directly dependent upon how many bees you have going into the winter which is directly dependent upon how well your Queen is laying brood etc. This all assumes that you have had a reasonable spring and good summer-early fall and NO significant DEARTH :no: The pollen stores/supply is also VERY important. If there has been a DEARTH and not enuf honey has been laid up for the winter, you gotta feed 1:1 sugar syrup with essential oils. Also, has there been a significant robbing event ([email protected]** those Italian bees)?

Soooo, all in all, after you have inspected those hives in the late summer and early fall and the bee population is low in any one hive, you have to decide if you're going to combine hives. You should do this and NOT try to requeen a hive LOW in bee population-it does NOT work! 

The ability of a hive to maintain temp INSIDE the hive is dependent upon the bees ability to manufacture heat from BURNING the honey fuel. Otherwise, no matter what the insulation 'R' value and all the other things I mentioned previously, if there are too few bees, the temp INSIDE the hive is gonna match the temp OUTSIDE the hive. The bees die because they cannot turn the thermostat up by burning the honey fuel.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Instead of combining, do you see anything wrong with adding brood, assuming it is from a very strong hive?


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## beeking1 (Jan 22, 2010)

No, nothing wrong in principle. BUT, and a very large BUT:lookout: for maintaining the strength of the strong/strongest hives. We tried to add brood frames to build up deteriorating hives with existent Queens in hopes they can get everything done for the winter. We would never do that again. It is a slow, exhaustive death for people and bees alike. 
Combine the hive and get a large bee population. Now, while you're on the subject, you MIGHT :lpf: taking a weak hive, putting on top of an inner cover with a screen on the inner cover so the bees/queen below can't come up to the top hive. That way, the WARMTH comes up and help keep the top hive warm. Your top hive enters and exits from the top of their hive.
However, you gotta feed the sugar syrup to both hives...so the weaker hive goes on top 'cause it's easier to open and fill the division feeder.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Thanks.

Your thoughts please:
I keep 15-20 hivesin 2 deeps. One hive had been far better than the others for 4 years before this year: Consistently 3-4-5 supers of honey, gentle. I am fairly confident it didn't swarm in those years. It came thru winter of 2008-2009 somewhat weak. I think they then superceded an aged queen and because we had so much rainy weather, the new queen did not have enough matings. The brood pattern was about 1/3 empty cells. I got 2 queens from the hive in early summer by splitting other hives and taking out a frame of eggs from this hive. But, I wanted to rear a number of queens this year hoping that even though the queen herself was inferior, superior genetics would be passed on. The hive was low in numbers and stores in fall. I fed heavily and some Megabee. But it died a few weeks ago.

Is my reasoning correct? What should I have done?

PS:I haven't treated for anything in 5 years.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

> I keep 15-20 hivesin 2 deeps.


This is the top bar hive section - you might get a better answer in the main forum.


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

beeking1 said:


> However, from the Bluegrass Bee sponsored forum in Frankfort, Ky last March 2009, a noted expert gave a presentation addressing some of these issues. .


Was any of this put in writting or on the web? Need more input!


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## DavesBees (Jun 2, 2009)

laurelmtnlover said:


> Why do bees not move toward the honey stores in cold weather, and starve?
> Does this happen in feral hives? Would this be in a manmade hive that is too cold, or moist? Should all the bars be moved around in the fall so they move in one direction only, with say the bars of brood and bees in the back of the hive if the entrance is in the front? With the honey all toward the front of the hive?
> I realize I will get lots of different anwers, but I would like to weigh all, and thanks..
> Will this warm spell hurt them, increase their feeding needs?


Why do bees not move toward the honey stores in cold weather, and starve? 
We would know if we could just speak bee. Otherwise lots of theory, speculation, and personal experiences. I like Michael’s answer best--- they wouldn’t leave their brood. The bees have only one goal--- to survive. They may feel their doomed if they move off the brood. 
Does this happen in feral hives? 
Once again, we don’t actually get to investigate this much but lots of beekeepers do cut outs of very healthy feral colonies that have moved laterally just fine. Also a feral hive does what it wants and just flips off the stupid fixed comb laws in their state. It is very possible that they design the hive for survival. If they want bridge comb they build it. If they want brace comb the build it. If they want a passage in the middle of a comb they do it. Turns out the bees don’t speak human either. If they could they might ask how we would like it if they came over to our place and put the flush in the kitchen and fridge in the shower. 
Would this be in a manmade hive that is too cold, or moist?
I would bet it has less to do with the hive than the disruptive manipulations performed on the hive last summer. They may only have one spot that they are comfortable since man has interfered with their architecture. 

Should all the bars be moved around in the fall so they move in one direction only, with say the bars of brood and bees in the back of the hive if the entrance is in the front? With the honey all toward the front of the hive?
I’ll put my helmet and face mask on for this answer. No—leave them alone.


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