# California almond pollination



## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I've seen qoutes in ABJ for $120-130 dollar range.

peggjam


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

I have seen those as well, I have heard rumors of them going as high as $150 to $175 . Due to mite loses and new acerage. I was just wondering if anyone can verify this.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Prices got real high when growers realized that there wasn't enough bees to go around last spring. I doubt that you will see those kinds of prices offered until the growers realize that there won't be enough again next spring.

peggjam


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## Bee Rancher (Sep 11, 2004)

I have had offers for 145.00 possibly higher by 4 brokers.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

$150 was the high last spring, so that could be feasible, but $175 is high right now, and you may not see that until spring.

peggjam


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## Curry (Sep 22, 2003)

The American Bee Journal is advertising package bees from Ausiland... I wonder if this will affect bee prices. If they import tons of packages, that would lessen the shortage and the price.

I would like to buy some of those packages though, say, this December. I've got about 40 or 50 empty deeps that I would like to fill with bees.

I'm going to take my bees to almonds for the first time this year, and my broker hasn't locked in any price yet... the longer you wait the better I suppose.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Curry, go into this with your eyes open. You're guaranteed to come home with varroa. You're not guaranteed to come home with bees. Hope it works out for you.

Hawk


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

While there have been many new plantings, most of these are still several years away from production.I dont have the figures at hand but could find them.Definitely going to be a shortage down the road aways,but not sure if it will be next year.


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

The shortage is just going to get worse, especially with low honey prices. A broker told me that the beekeepers that she works with were not able to add many new hives this year. So the demand will still be very strong. I guess we will just wait and see.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I think the increase in productive orchards is around 15,000 acres next year with a huge jump 4 or 5 years from now.So thats another 30,000 hives needed next Feb. I thought the low honey prices would bring more hives to Ca.but reports of mite problems are coming in again so there likely wont be an excess.
Canada has a lot of hives in the West that could be brought down.There is talk of this.Of course they would have to reciprocate and let USA hives come in for canola pollination and honey production.  
I doubt the Australian packages are going to have a big effect on the supply.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

As a small cell user I am wondering how small cell will do fending off varroa in the almond groves??

Anyone out there that pollinates and uses samll cell??


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

It seems the inherrent dangers of disease and pest due to mass overpopulating the area with bees is obvious although at $150.00/hive, if that is realized, is pretty hard to resist. It is my understanding that 1/3 of the hives are coming out of pollination africanized. I'm assuming if Brokers are saying $145 then growers must already be paying $65+.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>>It is my understanding that 1/3 of the hives are coming out of pollination africanized.

I'm just sitting here shaking my head. I don't know what to say, which is unusual for me. I'm sure I'll think of something.

George-


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Joel, you heard 1/3 of the bees coming out of almonds?I guess its possible in the southern areas of the valley,but I havent heard anyone saying their bees are meaner than normal.I certainly havent seen any mean hives yet, and no small hive beetles either.Personally,I will kill any vicious bees I get.You are right about the giant cess pool of almond pollination.Everything out there ends up in Cal. eventually.


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## louis1st (Oct 17, 2004)

I have read that they are now using bumblebees to pollinate almond trees because there is just not enough hives to do the job... is this true?


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

There was an attempt to use the Blue Orchard bee among other things, but it didn't work out. I do the pollination of an orchard every year where there was an attempt to use these bees, so I got to see the experiment. Here's a pic I took of one on it's little bamboo colony housing.

http://www.pbase.com/beekeeper/image/26667362

Joel, during the Almond blooming time, it's generally not warm enough for queens to breed. If one third of the hives coming out of California Almonds are Africanised, it means one third were Africanised going in. There isn't a magic curse which turns a hive of EHBs into AHBs during the Almond bloom.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>>Joel, during the Almond blooming time, it's generally not warm enough for queens to breed.

With all due respect Tim, that just doesn't seem right. If it's warm enough for the bees to be out in force flying and pollinating, why isn't it warm enough for queens to breed?

Also, use of the term "generally" doesn't mean "never" so I assume "sometimes" it's warm enough for queens to breed. Are you doubting the 1 in 3 africanization figure or africanization ocurring at all?

Personally, 1 in 3 africanization is a terrifying figure to me. 1 in 10 is a terrifying figure to me. Given the number of colonies involved (a wild guess- 1 million?) even 1 in 100 coming out africanized is a LOT of colonies.

George-


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

> With all due respect Tim, that just doesn't seem right. If it's warm enough for the bees to be out in force flying and pollinating, why isn't it warm enough for queens to breed?


Depending on variables, queens need a temperature of about 15 degrees higher to mate than workers do to fly, so you basic assumption is wrong.



> Also, use of the term "generally" doesn't mean "never" so I assume "sometimes" it's warm enough for queens to breed. Are you doubting the 1 in 3 africanization figure or africanization ocurring at all?


Generally means just what I meant it to mean (no offence). You'd have to have several factors in place. One, temps high enough for virgins to mate. Two, lots of AHB drones during Feb. and early March. Three, a queen having been recently superseded by a virgin in the hives brought into the Almonds. And probably several more factors that I can't think of now, but the 1/3 figure is absurd. Of course if people keep the hives in So. California for the avocado season, then percentages could conceivably become significant.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Well friends, let me tell you what I saw:
I had just switched to Italians and fed them syrup right up until Thanksgiving giving me some of the most booming hives in February one can imagine. The grower was very happy.
I dropped them off in the almonds and soon it was time to head down and pick them up.
On the way down to pick them up, I called Chuck Sowers, a famous Oregon Beekeeper, just to see how things were down there and he said, "The pedal fall was fast this year. I've never seen such bad robbing."
O.K? That didn't mean much at the moment, but it sure would later!
As I drove down the road to the almond plantation I drove past a line of hives that were stretched about 1/4 mile along the highway, all double-deeps,THAT ALL HAD NEWSPAPERS IN BETWEEN DEEPS!!! There must have been 80 or 100 of them!
I woke the next morning and walked in the ajoining orchards to look over other hives.
Many of them were dead outs.
Meanwhile, my hives were booming.
Once I got my hives home to Oregon, I let them alone for several days and then took a look.
They were very populous alright, but when I took the hive tool and cracked the top deep and leaned it up to peek at the bottom deep; the drone brood looked like someone had taken a pepper shaker and dumped it in the hive.
The drone brood were covered with varroa!
I've never seen such a mess.
Anyway, not to alarm anyone, but the rumors are true about that! You just need to have your plan of action ready.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

No offense taken Tim. Generally apparently means the same thing to you as it does to me









I take it then from your reply that:

1) Weather and other factors permitting, sometimes queens can successfully breed during Almond pollination.

2) That you don't buy the 1/3 africanization statement but believe that some number of hives are likely to get africanized during almond pollination.

Care to speculate on what that percentage might be?

George-


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Queens can definitely get mated by the end of bloom.I find a small number every year that raised a new queen during the bloom.But no more than 2% surely.And NO Africanization yet.
Harry, I saw the same thing.Deadouts set out in the orchards.I talked to one inspector and I dont want to tell you the dismal story of what he saw as he checked thousands of hives for the growers.Said he hated his job right then.And LOTS of robbing after the bloom.Stickies with hardly a mite before bloom,w/plenty afterwards.


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

> 1) Weather and other factors permitting, sometimes queens can successfully breed during Almond pollination.


Yes, of course it's possible. With a week of 69F degree weather, with a large number of local AHB hives producing lots of fertile drones, with virgin queens having been produced in imported hives during late Dec.- early Feb, etc...



> 2) That you don't buy the 1/3 africanization statement but believe that some number of hives are likely to get africanized during almond pollination.


As I said, the figure's absurd.



> Care to speculate on what that percentage might be?


Nope.

The Varroa anecdote and sewer metaphor in a previous post is good, and a real threat, at least in areas that are not geographically separated.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

The 1/3 figure is anecdotal (from a beekeeper who I Know in CA) and primarily in Orange County and I should have qualified it.
George, stop shaking your head and wrap your mind around this. 

500,000+ acres of Almonds, 900,000 to 1 million colonies of bees needed. Lets pick a small percentage, say loggermikes 2% get africanized. That means around 18,000 to 20,000 new AHB colonies. Lets suppose those hives get moved (and they will) accross the country all the way to Florida. Now one more question, How many hives did the researcher have in Brazil that started the migration that covered South America, Mexico and Southwestern US. (was it 26?) Where do spring queens come from once Fl. GA., AK, Miss. and SC are Africanized, if they can be? Will they survive in upstate NY? Maine, No. We will still see significant impact. My point is we all need to start asking these questions and hopefully come up with some good solutions, before the problem is at the door.

As a migratory beekeeper, I'm used to being blamed for every pestulance that comes down the pike. However, In the CA. case I think we need to have some honest, open dialogue on the potentials of what will come out of 1,000,000 colonies of bees crowded into a 450 mile stretch of CA then spread across the country. 

Of course this post started on prices for pollination. I'm talking more about the potential costs.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Joel brings up some points that I totally agree with, mainly that the spread of AHB will be increased due to the pollination in CA. It will get much worse if prices per colony increase. The one point I don't agree on is wether AHB can survive in colder climites. We just don't know for sure what their limits are, and how fast they will adapt to a new envornment. Even if they can't survive our winters, they will still be in the northeast due to the hives coming out of CA every spring,(AHB ones). So we will have to deal with them to some degree, and we should generate a few ideas before next year.

peggjam


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

The spread of AHB is going to increase anyway. Do you realise how many beekeepers winter in Fl and Texas. How many of them go back up north . AHB is going to spread with or without Ca. in the picture. Florida has had AHB for sometime now, think of all the beekeepers that come down here for orange blossom and wintering. Now think of them all going back north with AHB mated queens. All you can do is order queens out of Hawaii if you are that worried about it.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

> The spread of AHB is going to increase anyway. Do you realise how many beekeepers winter in Fl and Texas. How many of them go back up north . AHB is going to spread with or without Ca. in the picture. Florida has had AHB for sometime now, think of all the beekeepers that come down here for orange blossom and wintering. Now think of them all going back north with AHB mated queens. All you can do is order queens out of Hawaii if you are that worried about it.


Trevor,
Thanks. Right on the nose.

AHB don't come with a label on their thorax that reads (AHB), not even the queens.

I wonder if Hawaii is gearing up to be the only provider of certified AHB-free queens for the entire USA Beekeeping industry? Even though there are areas in Hawaii that are somewhat temperate, I hardly think they are suitable for producing queens bred particularly for winter hardiness.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Too bad Almonds aren't as good at producing nectar/honey as they are at producing pollination contracts.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>>500,000+ acres of Almonds, 900,000 to 1 million colonies of bees needed. Lets pick a small percentage, say loggermikes 2% get africanized. That means around 18,000 to 20,000 new AHB colonies. Lets suppose those hives get moved (and they will) accross the country all the way to Florida.

Head wrapping commencing Joel, and thanks for that perspective on the situation. I'd already done the math, at 1% btw, and come to the same conclusions you did. What has me shaking my head is the notion that all these beekeepers are heading for California *knowing* the potential ramifications: Possible africanization of (some of) their colonies and the spreading of those AHB colonies all over the country and almost certain contraction of disease and mites. Must be worth the cost.

In other countries threatened with AHB, people have done everything they could to stop/control/inhibit their migration, ultimately to no avail. Here in the United States we're apparently doing everything to help them spread and impact areas where they would not normally get to on their own, at least for some years. Given the effect widespread africanization will have on beekeeping... It just boggles the mind.

As for the direct threat to me in Maine? Well, there is a 1500+/- hive migratory operation located about 6 miles down the road from me in the next town over. They summer in Maine and New York and winter in Florida but this winter they're heading to California- the money is just too good. I bought a couple of NUCs from them earlier this year. There's another migratory beekeeper in my town with about 850 hives which he winters over in southern Georgia and Florida. He's got some of his hives as close as 1.25 miles from my apiary. I *bought* 20 of his hives this year







30 miles north of me is another beekeeper that sends his 400+ hives to Florida for the winter. There are conservatively 3500 migratory hives that winter in AHB territory and summer in my back yard- almost a thousand of these hives spend a month or so on blueberries as little as 1/2 mile from my apiary. I'd say I'm likely to encounter AHB before long, and I'm not looking forward to it.

Will AHB winter over in Maine? Probably not.. not at first anyways, but I wouldn't bet money on it. They've shown themselves to be quite adaptable. In any case, they don't have to winter over here have a significant impact on my operation. All they have to do is take over one of my hives for the summer, and I'm impacted. A few stinging incidents anywhere in Maine and I'm impacted. I'm impacted if I get an AHB queen from a southern producer. As a beekeeper, I'm impacted if beekeeping is impacted regardless of where it occurs. And it will occur.

George-


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## sc-bee (May 10, 2005)

A member in our beekeeping meeting ask the university guest speaker if he thought S.C. would get AHB. His answer was -not if but when!!!!


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

We're proably going to have AHB in the northeast during the summer, I don't think we can escape that fact. Because AHB casts so many swarms, we will definitly have some feral hives somewhere. Our big problem becomes one in which one of those "feral hives" survives the winter. Once they have managed to accomplish that, we will be wishing we'd done something about AHB in the first place.

peggjam


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Well you could look on the bright side.African bees seem twice as hygienic as our bees and can handle the mites on their own.If we just keep killing off all vicious hives when found, maybe we can end up with a tough hybrid without the temper problem.In the long run it will be beekeepers actively breeding out the genes for bad temper that solves the temper problem.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My fear is the backlash will be to kill all the feral bees (already what they are doing in several states) and the feral bees may be our best hope for Varroa resistance.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

> Even though there are areas in Hawaii that are somewhat temperate, I hardly think they are suitable for producing queens bred particularly for winter hardiness.


I don't believe the fact that the queen comes from Hawaii directly relates to overwintering. My Kona Queen overwintered quite nicely. If they were Native Hawaiian bees, then you would have a point. But I believe the genetics are all imported.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

delete


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

> I don't believe the fact that the queen comes from Hawaii directly relates to overwintering. My Kona Queen overwintered quite nicely. If they were Native Hawaiian bees, then you would have a point. But I believe the genetics are all imported.


I should have said, "for developing queens with outstanding winter hardiness". Certainly genetics is it, but the selection pressure is no longer working to maintain those winter hardiness traits.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

true


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## Lew Best (Jan 8, 2005)

I think the fear of AHB is a bit overdone; I don't blame you; got rid of my bees & equipment back when the news came out that "the killer bees are in TX"! Turned out to be a false alarm; I was just afraid my bees, hives, extractor, etc. would have only scrap value soon! Since I got back in this spring here are my opinions; my county was in the quarrantine area until that quarrantine law was abolished earlier in the year.

I've checked out or removed about a dozen swarms/removals this year; only 2 have appeared africanized (and they were mean!). One was a swarm; managed to get most into a hive; thought I had the queen but maybe not. They absconded & I was glad! Other was in a tree trunk so I didn't try to touch it!

So; after having AHB in my county for years & not finding any problems other than the 2 swarm/ferals, it's no big deal. I carry a full bee suit in my truck but am yet to use anything other than the bee jacket with zip on veil & I do use gloves when doing removals; seems a lot easier than having very sticky hands. Also the Weavers are on the fringe of the "old quarrantine zone" & i've only heard very spotty reports of them having problems. They raise & sell lotsa bees & queens. Like I said I think it's been between 15 & 20 years since the AHB were found in TX and they're not a real significant problem.

Lew in Waco; right in the middle of TX.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Actually the "fear" that bothers me is the publics peception of "killer bees", or an unknowing beekeeper approaching an AHB hive and paying a very dear price for it. My point is if we know they are here, we can be more careful about how we do things, instead of walking up to a hive and taking the cover off.

peggjam


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## Curry (Sep 22, 2003)

Yep... no stopping what's coming, only can delay it. So don't fight it, just learn to deal with it, be it SHB, AHB, varroa, etc.

I personally don't believe this idea that placing bees in almonds will give you lots of varroa. If you haven't spent some serious time using VarroaPOP, the software that explains varroa population increases, then don't even bother trying to understand how varroa kills a hive. It takes a good start (thousands), and then they increase best without a serious break in the brood cycle. A previous thread talked about feeding bees strong though the fall, and then seeing lots of varroa on drones after almonds. It sounds to me like there was little interruption in the brood cycle, which is needed to control varroa.

I might get 5 or 6 varroa mites from another hive... but I'll give that many away. It's the 10,000 mites already in my hive that I'm concerned with.

I'm sure I will get the small hive beetle from almonds, but big deal, I'll have to deal with them eventually anyway. I'm not the least concerned about getting AHB... I just don't think it'll happen. I use a full bee suit anyway.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

The most serious issue with AHb may not be aggressive bees but bees with capensis-like traits.
Dr. Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman dropped a bombshell on beekeepers at the ABF convention in Savannah when she reported these little black bees which produce pseudo queens. I was given a hard time reporting her information on BEE-L.
Her warning was simple. The California Almond pollination could be threatened by bees with capensis-like traits. My research shows she could be right.
Capensis dominates all other races in areas they get established in. 
The whole hive can not be queens or laying worker queens to survive and be productive.
Both Dr. Hoffman & myself will continue to attempt to wake up a disbelieving beekeeping world to what they *may* have to deal with in the future.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

I am with Lew... Keep preaching this fear, fear, fear... and pretty soon everyone will be fearful.

Is there any evidence that the african/brazilian hybrid can actually withstand a 'normal' winter north of Dallas Texas?


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I agree, the attitude should not be if but when. Wintering in SC. I knew eventually they would reach that area. I'm not suggesting we should not do pollintation because of AHB, nor should we be spreading the alarm outside our own ranks. We as beekeeper should however be alarmed. It's not about preaching fear, it's about the fact that if we have similar situation as South America (very likely) what are we doing to deal with the problem and how will we carry on. Now we can stick our head in the sand and say, no worrys mate. Or we can work to research and discuss what is most likely to happen and determine how a factor that completely changed beekeeping in much of South America and Mexico will effect us in our litigenous American Society. 

I see comparisons about mites, disease spread etc. That is no comparison. I am good friends with a beekeeper from Trinidad. When his area was Aficanized his bees killed his pig and then his dog over a 2 week period. I don't think mites ever killed anyones pets (or the owner for that matter)

Will pollination in CA and migratory beekeepers (like me) likely increase the spread of AHB. You bet. Do we know the model, certainly, look south. Can we be better prepared as an industry, I think so. This post is the perfect place for such information dissemination. 

We don't have to sound the alarm, as this problem spreads you can be assured the press will with every single incident!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>It's the 10,000 mites already in my hive that I'm concerned with.

What are you doing with 10,000 mites in your hive?

What about the 10,000 mites that come with the drones that drift in and the field bees from your hive that robbed a crashing hive?

I don't think we're talking about "5 or 6 mites".


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## Lew Best (Jan 8, 2005)

Tecumseh you're south of me; do you see a lot of africanization (as in mean swarms, etc.)?

Lew


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

I know in our outfit we have picked up more problems in North Dakota than we ever have in California. Just something to think about.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Nick Noyes,
Could you elaborate a little on your statement?


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

We have been going to California for almonds since before I was born and haven't had any huge problems disease wise. We picked up varroa in ND and brought it back to ID. Now its just a matter of time before we get the hive beetles. We set next to a lot of Florida bees in ND. My point is everything doesn't just show up in California. There are bees being shipped all over the U.S for different reasons and this is not going to slow down or stop. We need to figure out how we can solve the problem not pin it on so and so who brought it back from were ever.


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## heartbeat (Nov 18, 2004)

curry, 
the varoapop deals with "normal" situations, however, almond polination is not normal. your bees sit next to someone elses hives who sit next to someone elses who sit next to..., and so on. the problem occurs when you have strong hives and the other(s) have weak/varoa infested hives. the strong hives rob the weak ones and bring back EVERYTHING. (feed, diseases, varoa, etc.)


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

Lew ask:
Tecumseh you're south of me; do you see a lot of africanization (as in mean swarms, etc.)?

tecumseh replies:
not really Lew, but then I kind of swore off catching swarms this season. last season I probably caught 12 swarms and/or afterswarms and 1 tested out as being somewhere between a european and a pure african hybrid. currently I would not catch a swarm unless I had a new queen for immediate replacement. and the mite and small hive beetle have made that possibility a bit difficult.

I have the weaver's all about me in large numbers and I know they took a large number of hives to california. the weaver's are very savy about culling bad bees, so my concerns are more about the mites.

On a more general note:
the general discussion has elements that remind me somewhat of Hardin's Tragedy of the Common. most specifically who benefits and who pays is not exactly crystal clear.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

>>If you haven't spent some serious time using VarroaPOP, the software that explains varroa population increases, then don't even bother trying to understand how varroa kills a hive. It takes a good start (thousands), and then they increase best without a serious break in the brood cycle. A previous thread talked about feeding bees strong though the fall, and then seeing lots of varroa on drones after almonds. It sounds to me like there was little interruption in the brood cycle, which is needed to control varroa.<<

Although stated in a very condecending manner, there are some valuable points raised here.
However, as valuable as Varroa-Pop is, it cannot predict with accuracy in the transient, as it does in a stable environment.

But it is very encouraging to read in the first place, that there are others such as myself that attempt to their best ability to stay abreast with these matters in the first place.

Secondly, I respect those who sucsessfully track and adjust their varroa populations despite the hard work.

>>I might get 5 or 6 varroa mites from another hive... but I'll give that many away. It's the 10,000 mites already in my hive that I'm concerned with.<<

 Uh,,,on second thought, scratch the second part.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

As a Canuck I'd sure like the opportunity to pollinate almonds. At $150 a hive, there is enough money to fix problems later. I would not mind seeing U.S. beekeepers overhere. Outfits could cooperate in a North-South migrations. Opportunities for many.

Jean-Marc


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> As a Canuck I'd sure like the opportunity
> to pollinate almonds.


Sure you would. The only real problem would be
dealing with the Canadian government on the issue
of bringing bees "on comb" back across the border
after you pollinated. For 17 years, the border
has been closed to even northbound queen shipments
on one lame excuse after another. It was only
reopened to queen shipments this year.



> At $150 a hive, there is enough money to
> fix problems later. I would not mind seeing U.S.
> beekeepers overhere.


I think you would be somewhat alone in that
view. In fact, a significant fraction of
Canadian beekeepers (mostly hobbyists and
queen/package producers) thought that even
allowing queens to be shipped to Canada
would (somehow) directly result in truckloads
of hives of bees infected with everything from
AIDS to the Black Plague arriving in their
neighborhoods, proving that the USA has no
exclusive copyright on willful ignorance.

Offhand, I'd guess that the best you could do
would be a one-way trip, where you could
bring your bees South, pollinate, perhaps
get a crop of honey in the Dakotas, and then
sell the colonies before returning home with
empty trucks.

Heck, I have been even unable to convince the
PMRA section of Health Canada that Bee-Quick 
http://bee-quick.com is not some sort of 
dangerous and hazardous pesticide in the last 
*5 years*. No other country has ever taken
such a stubborn and uncooperative position.

That's why you can buy Bee-Quick everywhere else
on the planet as an unregulated product, even in
places with very strict pesticide/biosanitary
regulations, like Europe and New Zealand, but it
is not yet stocked by Canadian dealers.

So I'd guess that your grandchildren will still
be looking fondly at the almond groves, unable
to cross an imaginary line ignored by bees,
bee pests, and bee diseases.

But hey - at least you guys have universal
health care.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>Opportunities for many.
There were in the past.And no one 'ran over'the other.Canadians came to California and took packages back.Some had businesses in both countries.But no more.Thats progress, i guess.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Loggermike, no one ran over, but pollination fees are way more attractive and the cost of the offshore packages is way higher. 1kg Nz bees was $125-132 last season. Aussie pacs were about $170-200 for 4 pounds of bees and 2 queens.

It is unfortunate that many of my countrymen resist change and cannot see the opportunities.I move my bees around a lot relatie to most oufits. I did 1 or 2 sets in the Vancouver area. Other hives did a second set on canola, eventually all went to Northeastern Alberta. I'm finally home and we are moving bees from the marshalling yards to winter/spring yards.

Jim, best of luck with PMRA. They are a bunch of folks with very deaf ears. You are probably painfully aware of that already.


Jean-Marc


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

I wonder if one could grow, say, five acres of Texas Mission, collect the pollen with traps and store it in a freezer or something. 

Then, next almond season, bring in, say, one strong hive per two or three acres and have the ranch manager take a mix of, say, one part pollen and 4 or 5 parts flour or chalk or something and with a blower or puffer go by once each morning and puff a bunch of the powder into every hive.

With table dates we did something like that, although directly on to the bunches of dates rather than on to a vector.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Tim:

What is Texas Mission?

Jean-Marc


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## Curry (Sep 22, 2003)

"almond polination... the problem occurs when you have strong hives and the other(s) have weak/varoa infested hives. the strong hives rob the weak ones and bring back EVERYTHING. (feed, diseases, varoa, etc.)"

Robbing seldom occurs during any kind of flow, so it's unlikely during almonds. And since most varroa is in brood cells, not directly on bees, it's unlikely robbing bees would hang out on brood cells long.

And Harry, if you don't think YOUR hive has thousands of mites in the fall, you're kidding yourself. If you're counting 20 to 30 mites in a 24 hour period, which is common during the fall, then extrapolate the total mite count. And I've had hives that had 50 to 100 mites... which means the hive has thousands of mites. As I said, THATS what I'm concerned with... not the couple of mites that by chance might brush off from one drone to another- insignificant. I've had hives with 1 or 2 mite counts in the fall right next to a hive with 100 mite counts. Mites just don't even themselves out between hives.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Almonds keep the bees busy during the bloom.The robbing takes place at the end of bloom,when thousands of hives are still close together w/little to forage on.Thats when the weak ones get robbed out This year at the end of bloom, a Montana beekeep was splitting hives in the orchard (trying to make up his huge varroa losses).He mentioned that the robbing was getting pretty bad.Since I was the closest to him , I moved mine out as quickly as possible to give him a chance.There were Washington bees in another close orchard that had lots of weak hives and some deadouts.So go in with your eyes open.If you dont have these problems now, you soon will!


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Curry,
Sorry that I mis-spelled the word "condescending" in my last post, I apoligize for that. I had to look it up so that I could use it again to answer your post.
"Acting with an air of supieriority".
Interesting....
Anyway, to your points:
In a nutshell, you don't know what you are talking about and should do a whole lot of listening and much less preaching, in my opinion.

>>Robbing seldom occurs during any kind of flow, so it's unlikely during almonds.<<

Case in point. Everyone that read that, that pollinates almonds immediatly dropped their head in their hands.
Curry, we had THOUSANDS of hives crunched into acreage down there and when the blooms dropped this year, it was sudden, resulting in the worst robbing many have ever seen.

>>As I said, THATS what I'm concerned with... not the couple of mites that by chance might brush off from one drone to another- insignificant.<<

This is the second time you have mentiond mite exchange from drones. You are right, that is insignificant I really have my doubts that you understand all of the critical issues of which you preach. Do you have a copy of "Mites if the Honey Bee" by Thomas Webster and Keith Delaplane? If no, buy it and read it.

>>And Harry, if you don't think YOUR hive has thousands of mites in the fall, you're kidding yourself.<<

I know precisely my mite loads, do you?

>>......... a hive with 100 mite counts.<<

 Buy the book!


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

Jean-Marc, Texas Mission is one of the traditional pollinator varities for almonds. There are others used more nowdays, as with it's hard shell it brings in less money.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

The worst robbing I have seen was in a holding yard where hundreds of disoriented hives were stacked awaiting trucks to haul them back home.The weak ones were pounced on by hives still in the area that sensed an easy target.This doesnt happen every year or in all areas, but this year was a very fast bloom.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

To add to Harrys' point, with over a million hives crowded into a 450 mile stretch of Almond country the extreme overpopulation vs available forage would seemingly make robbing a normal consequence of survival of the fittest.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

To add to Harrys' point, with over a million hives crowded into a 450 mile stretch of Almond country the extreme overpopulation vs available forage would seemingly make robbing a normal consequence of survival of the fittest.

Potentially though disease and pests may be and increased risk the quality of survior stock potential must me be pretty high also.


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## Curry (Sep 22, 2003)

"you don't know what you are talking about and should do a whole lot of listening and much less preaching"... 

yes, a very good description of what condescending is, thanks Harry.

My intent is to point out that mites don't transfer in significant numbers from one hive to another. If bees robbed another hive, the most conjested part of the hive is the brood nest (where most of the mites are), and robbers are not going to go through the conjestion. So, give me a viable mechanism for mite transfer in the thousands, from one hive to another. No one has even suggested a method that is plausible.

My statement "Robbing seldom occurs during any kind of flow, so it's unlikely during almonds" is true. AFTER the almond flow is another matter, and if you leave your bees around after almonds then that's a risk you take (robbing).

There is a mechanism for small hive beetle transfer... the adults can fly into any hive and lay eggs. There is no mechanism for large mite transfer, which is why it doesn't occur. If someone lost a hive to mites, it wasn't due to someone elses hive.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Dear Curry,
You got me there, and I'm sorry if my comments were a bit harsh. O.K.?
Here's what I see when reading through your posts in this thread:
You are Bright.
You are literate.
You have zeal!
I respect you already!
O.K. Now to your points:

>>yes, a very good description of what condescending is, thanks Harry.<<

Guilty as charged. Sorry Curry. 

>>My intent is to point out that mites don't transfer in significant numbers from one hive to another. If bees robbed another hive, the most conjested part of the hive is the brood nest where most of the mites are, and robbers are not going to go through the conjestion. So, give me a viable mechanism for mite transfer in the thousands, from one hive to another. No one has even suggested a method that is plausible.<<

Here you are only guilty of lack of information.
Nobody knows everything.
Crack the books!

>>My statement "Robbing seldom occurs during any kind of flow, so it's unlikely during almonds" is true. AFTER the almond flow is another matter, and if you leave your bees around after almonds then that's a risk you take (robbing).<<

Are you a commercial Beekeeper? You have to understand the massive and daunting reletionship between the beekeeper and the grower. Many growers will not release the hives until EVERY SINGLE PEDAL HAS FALLEN! Others are slow in returning calls etc...etc.. So here we are up in Oregon, trying to second guess pedal fall.
Have you ever been in that position?
OOPS that was condescending, sorry!

>>There is no mechanism for large mite transfer, which is why it doesn't occur. If someone lost a hive to mites, it wasn't due to someone elses hive.<<

Dear Curry,
We are on the same side. We are both beekeepers that have energy and drive for the industry. Please don't make statements like the last one that exposes your lack of knowledge.
Before you post an embarrasing statement for all of the world to see, make sure of its factuality.

We are all at some point on the learning curve.
Harry


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>There is no mechanism for large mite transfer, which is why it doesn't occur. If someone lost a hive to mites, it wasn't due to someone elses hive.

I would disagree. In my observation, a strong hive robbing a hive crashing from Varroa mites brings back a very significant number of mites. Others have observed the same.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

I have always considered Dr. Marion Ellis to know what he's talking about, Curry, but maybe he doesn't and I should have been listening to you instead.
Check out:
http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/insects/g1302.htm

And I quote" The most serious spread of varroa occurs in colonies where the social structure has been weakened by mite infestation. As these colonies lose the ability to defend their nests, many varroa mites disperse on robbing bees."

Now thats Dr. Ellis speaking, Curry.

But I prefer your view. Therefore, I will remove the mites from hy hives and never, EVER become reinfested from the outside again.  

My good clean bees will go to California and rob away with total impunity. IN FACT, as soon as I get off of this computer, I'm going to call my breeders and ask them to start selecting for robbing behavior!


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>>I'm going to call my breeders and ask them to start selecting for robbing behavior!

It's already been done, they're called "Italians"









George-


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

It's already been done, they're called "Italians" 

HEY!!

my bee's resemble that compliment!

Dave


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## Curry (Sep 22, 2003)

" The most serious spread of varroa occurs in colonies where the social structure has been weakened by mite infestation. As these colonies lose the ability to defend their nests, many varroa mites disperse on robbing bees."

This statement was under the heading "SPREAD". Of course varroa mites spread by various methods... drones, as M. Bush mentioned in a previous post (which Harry, I think you failed to read because you couldn't figure out why I was responding to that). Also, mites spread by robbing bees, as others have mentioned. And I have much respect for those that are postulating ideas for mite transfer, but not so much respect for those that are just interested in banter.

But once again, the issue at hand is there ENOUGH transfer of mites to put a hive in danger of collapsing from varroa? The quote given says that "many" varroa disperse with robbing bees.

I can respect, though disagree, with Michaels statement that robbing bees can bring back significant numbers of mites. But again, unless "significant" is in the thousands, it is not going to cause a hive to crash. How is a hive going to get thousands of mites by by-passing the brood nest, where most of the mites are?

Just because I've never seen it happen, doesn't mean that someone else hasn't. But until I am given a plausible mechanism for transferring thousands of mites, I just am not going to worry about my hives in almonds crashing from someone elses hives.

And Harry, believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear. Don't just accept someone else's statements, because history has shown a good many statements as incorrect. Don't believe what I'm saying... go find out for yourself.

And I see that you are fairly new to this forum. What's really great about this forum is that it is not used to badger people- just to exchange information. I hope you enjoy it.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

>>And I see that you are fairly new to this forum.<<

Yes, but not new to beekeeping; which is more important? 

>>I can respect, though disagree, with Michaels statement that robbing bees can bring back significant numbers of mites. But again, unless "significant" is in the thousands, it is not going to cause a hive to crash. How is a hive going to get thousands of mites by by-passing the brood nest, where most of the mites are?<<

I have the answer to your nagging question, Brother Curry!
And here it is:
Reread your question!
You have absolutly no clue about the subject that you are "bantering" about. NO CLUE!
I am doing you a favor here. You know about the awkward situation where the guy at work has a bad case of B.O. and no one has the heart to tell him because he's a good guy????
Curry! You are a good guy!
We're on your side! You're sharp!
Please learn to listen.


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

"But once again, the issue at hand is there ENOUGH transfer of mites to put a hive in danger of collapsing from varroa? The quote given says that "many" varroa disperse with robbing bees."

Yes.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How is a hive going to get thousands of mites by by-passing the brood nest, where most of the mites are?

How does a robber bee walk in the bottom entrnace (typical entrance for a hive) and get to the supers while bypassing the brood nest? In the end the robbers will rob out every cell in the hive and crawl over every inch of comb multiple times finishing up the cleanout. How can they NOT come into contact with thousands of mites in a crashing hive? Have you watched a crashing hive get completely robbed out?


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<But until I am given a plausible mechanism for transferring thousands of mites>>

If a hive is broodless then all of the mites are phoretic. 

Any workers not killed in the initial fight will drift to neighboring hives after their's is cleaned out. 

Resulting in nearly ALL of the mites from the robbed hive being transferred to neighboring hives.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

>>>And Harry, believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear.<<<

This is, hands down, THE WORST beekeeping advise I have ever read.  

One of the great benefits of being human is the ability to read, listen and then comprehend incredibly complex concepts.

Or do we flush all of the billions of hours of work, research and experience that has gone before us and then all start from scratch?


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## JaiPea (Sep 27, 2005)

We somehow skipped over Joel's comment and went straight to arguing over mite infestation and attacking each other....

> ...it's about the fact that if we have similar situation
> as South America (very likely) what are we doing to deal
> with the problem and how will we carry on. Now we can
> stick our head in the sand and say, no worrys mate. Or
> we can work to research and discuss what is most likely
> to happen and determine how a factor that completely
> changed beekeeping in much of South America and Mexico
> will effect us in our litigenous American Society.

There are beekeepers in South America and Africa who are managing to farm bees for both honey and migratory pollination but the sources are limited because the language barrier prevents wide coverage of their techniques. Only a few examples pop up when browsing, and it is not clear how much can be adapted to beekeeping here.

Based on information that is available on the web:

- In Mexico beekeepers use Langstroths, are ruthless about destroying aggressive AHB queens and active in re-queening cannibalized hives with their own queens that are hybridized towards the gentler side of the spectrum.
- The Jackson hives/frames out of Africa lessen the exposure to aggressive bees during harvesting, reduce the risk of capensis that Rob Harrison mentioned, and are strong enough to be trucked for pollination.

The Mexican methods are very labor intensive.

Rob Harrison mentioned capensis invasion as a bigger threat than mites, and the 32x20x9 Jackson appears to defeat invasion because the nest is not disturbed to harvest honey or check the hive. It sounds too simple, but supposedly the queen's pheronomes are strong enough to prevent the invading capensis workers from laying eggs because the pheronomes are not dispersed as happens when a Langstroth is opened.

Being a cross between Langstroth and TBH, the Jackson appears suitable for migratory pollination because it would stack readily in a truck. The doweled frames are strong and do not suffer from comb failure like a TBH. The bees being used in Africa undoubtedly have nasty natures because many hives are hoisted 8' above the ground in trees. The reasons given are to protect the hive from predatory damage, but unsaid is that it also puts the flying patterns above people.

The Jackson is a variation on the double length Langstroth which has been used with success by some beekeepers. Almond pollination is the whipping post of the day.

Wouldn't it be great to have some empirical experience from a beekeeper who used natural or small cell comb in the brood nest of a double length Langstroths supered at the rear?

If those hives did not suffer mightily from Varroa infestation after the flow it would suggest there are viable strategies that can be readily adopted.

JP


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Wouldn't it be great to have some empirical experience from a beekeeper who used natural or small cell comb in the brood nest of a double length Langstroths supered at the rear?

I've had several double wides on small/natural cell. I currently have one that is Deeps (9 1/4" frames) and one that is Dadant deeps (11 1/4" frames). Both are 22 frames or so. But I super them at the front and force the bees to go through the super to get into the hive so they will not ignore it and keep moving the brood nest to the rear so I don't have to lift supers to get to it. Other than the small cell, what does it have to do with Varroa?

I do like the idea of having frames with solid top bars so you get the calm, closed effect of a TBH and yet the support of a frame. I've been thinking how I want build the frames for a while.


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## Curry (Sep 22, 2003)

"Any workers not killed in the initial fight will drift to neighboring hives after their's is cleaned out. Resulting in nearly ALL of the mites from the robbed hive being transferred to neighboring hives."

My experience with robbed out hives is that most of the bees remain with their hive and die out from starvation. But, this at least, is a very worthwhile thought and I appreciate the idea.

And I appreciate Michaels comments about robbing bees... and yes they do comb every inch of honey and lick it dry, but what interest would they have in the brood nest? And, after the hive is empty, they're gone, and it doesn't take long for them to empty one. But I do appreciate and think about these ideas.

Harry, I thank my lucky stars that I've never just done beekeeping by how others think I should- it would be a pain in the rear. I enjoy beekeeping because I HAVEN'T listened to the PhD's, and other know-it-alls. I test everything, and question everything for myself. And yes, I do read and study much (I found this site before you...), but I only test what I read, not accept it.

I've come to the conclusion that losing bees from mites is similar to accountability of CEO's. CEO's who don't meet expectations always blame their losses on the weather (hurricane Katrina will be this quarters). Likewise, I'm convinced that beekeepers who suffer large losses have to blame something else- and what a great excuse, as luck would have it, that %$#&@ beekeeper next to me who had tons of mites... if it wasn't for him, I wouldn't have lost half my hives!

My bees are finishing up in soybeans right now, and I'll be moving them to a holding yard in California for almonds here shortly. And, yes, I'm sure my strong hives which just built up on soybeans will rob out some of y'alls weak hives that was lucky to get some goldenrod- but I, for one, will not blame your hives if I lose some to varroa. You, however, may feel free to blame me for robbing your hives out!

Sorry to beat this subject to death, but I can't think of a more important subject in beekeeping today... and IF mites can transfer en masse, and destroy a nearby hive, I think that would be valuable info. On the other hand, IF they don't, I think that is VERY valuable info to beekeepers in almonds. It's very hard to see mites on robbing bees because they don't just hang around and let you see them. The only way I've been able to make my conclusions is by keeping mite counts of various hives, and seeing if there is any significant changes after robbing, or by being near a heavily infested hive. I just haven't seen any appreciable changes in mite counts afterwards. Any other ideas on how to make a definative test?


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## JaiPea (Sep 27, 2005)

> Other than the small cell, what does it have to do with Varroa?

This thread has focused on almond pollination, and the longest repartee has been arguing about the validity or otherwise of massive mite infestations that occur because of robbing.

Huge numbers of hives
--> Robbing
--> Severe Varroa infestations

TBHs/Jackson hives have the reputation of handling mites better than Langstroths (natural comb cells and an undisturbed brood nest are said to be key contributing factors).

Premise: Double wides on small cell comb or natural combs are a close facsimile to TBH/Jackson so prima facie, they should be able to cope with mite infestations better than regular Langstroths.

Use the almond orchards as a live 'laboratory' environment.

If double wides are not as affected by mites at the end of the bloom as regular hives there would be anecdotal evidence that double wides help bees help themselves.

You have mentioned before that small cell means mites are not a big problem for you in any hives, and you run TBHs, Langstroths, and double wides. 

Do your double wides and TBHs handle mites any better than your regular Langstroths?

> I do like the idea of having frames with solid top bars 
> so you get the calm, closed effect of a TBH and yet the 
> support of a frame. I've been thinking how I want build 
> the frames for a while.

Have you considered Jackson frames? Each end of the top bar is drilled with 1/2" holes into which you glue a length of dowel. If you use something waterproof like Gorilla Glue you do not need to staple a nail through the bar into the dowel. The result is very rigid. If you want a bottom bar you screw it into the end of the dowel (easier than the original design which uses 1/4" dowel drilled into the 1/2" dowel). 

JP


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

>>And I appreciate Michaels comments about robbing bees... and yes they do comb every inch of honey and lick it dry, but what interest would they have in the brood nest? And, after the hive is empty, they're gone, and it doesn't take long for them to empty one. But I do appreciate and think about these ideas.<<

I'm envisioning a platform that one could stratle and ride down a hill. The aspect that contacts the ground, I have labled as a wheel.
Appreciate that the wheel is square.

>>Any other ideas on how to make a definative test? <<

Oh, I get it!!! You continually refer to your seniority on the message board, and I keep missing the point:
All of the Nations experts and their graduate students are crackpots that should be ignored, but lets patronize the message board's members for opinions instead. 
I would like to be able to type Deleplane's entire book right here, for you but it's that copywrite thing.


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

"Sorry to beat this subject to death, but I can't think of a more important subject in beekeeping today... and IF mites can transfer en masse, and destroy a nearby hive, I think that would be valuable info."

You don't seem the type that believes anything that anyone says unless you can confirm it yourself, so what's the use of discussing anything with you?


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Here is something to seriously consider, although the author probably has very little message board seniority: 

http://www.uga.edu/columns/010409/weeklyread.html


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>and yes they do comb every inch of honey and lick it dry, but what interest would they have in the brood nest? 

I can put an empty clean comb out and the bees will check out every square inch of it carefully. There is always some honey and pollen in the brood nest. The honey, being of much more intrest, but I've also seen them steal pollen and even propolis off of frames left out.

>TBHs/Jackson hives have the reputation of handling mites better than Langstroths (natural comb cells and an undisturbed brood nest are said to be key contributing factors).

I would guess the natural comb instead of foundation is the cause.

>Do your double wides and TBHs handle mites any better than your regular Langstroths?

I don't see any noticable difference, but then, other than one hive with a Cordovan queen, all the small cell bees have done fine with the mites. It seems to be a kind of balancing act. If the bees have a nice balance going the mite counts stay nice and low. If something upsets the balance then it crashes. That's what scares me about the almond orchards. A huge influx of mites can quickly upset the balance of the mites not reproducing any faster than they die. An influx from outside would disrupt this balance.

>Have you considered Jackson frames? Each end of the top bar is drilled with 1/2" holes into which you glue a length of dowel.

Yes, I have. But dowels aren't that cheap here. I can buy one by boards and cut them up into a frame much cheaper than I can buy dowels and build a frame. I'm considering making a "picture frame" with the beveled corner of a one by (like I make my comb guides out of) and then gluing and nailing this to the top bar. That way there is a "comb guide" all the way around to encourage attachment all the way around. Maybe also put a center support in. A dowel might be the best for this, since you can drill a round hole in the center of the top and bottom of the frame easily, but maybe a 3/8" square piece with the corners in line with the center (like a diamond) would be cheaper.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Hey Curry,
I guess ole HarryVanderpool just can't resist being condescending - maybe that's how he demonstrates his intelligence?  Anyway, it seems logical that there would be some level of mite tranfer during robbing and drifting. The question is: is it enough to directly cause a hive to crash? Or are the invading mites just enough to push the already infested hive over the edge a little quicker? If a hive with zero mites is placed next to a crashing hive, would it too crash immediately? I know there are many assertions to this effect in various research papers, books and notes. But, I have yet to find a study that had mites-transferred-via-robbing-behavior as its primary focus. Invading mites certainly wouldn't help a well managed hive, but IMO would not cause it to collapse right away. 

"No horizontal mite transfer through robbing was observed"

This is a quote from a Swedish study that supports your POV (at least in nordic climes). http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/pdf/2003/04/M3407.pdf 

Off subject: You said your bees have been working soy beans. I have hives surrounded by hundreds of acres of soy beans that are beeing totally ignored by the bees. What variety beans were your bees working? Thanx,


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Your soy beans are blooming now? Ours are being harvested now. I don't know what variety they planted but my bees were working them back in July.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Nah, that was back in July/August, but the bees ignored them in what was otherwise a nectar dearth. What variety do yours bees work? I'll try to convince the farmer to switch. Thanx,


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Personally, I think this discussion is, while quite entertaining, largely moot. If you take your hives to California for the Almond pollination, you'll probably pickup some mites. Maybe a lot of mites. Maybe just a few mites. Chances are you already HAVE mites. Maybe you'll actually LOSE some mites. Maybe the mites you pick up will be resistant to the chemicals you've been using. Some of your hives may subsequently crash and burn as a result of mites or complications resulting from mites whether you take your hives to California or not. I've got some crashing hives and they've never been to California. They've been to Georgia, and Florida, but they've never seen an Almond blossom.

Mites aside, you may pick up SHB if you don't already have them (they can fly I understand) and odious diseases like AFB. Some of your hives may get africanized.

Is any of this "risk" going to stop beekeepers from taking their hives to California? Probably not. The money is too good. So they'll go. Will they then take their hives to other parts of the country, possibly spreading the pox and pestilence (and africanized drones) they got in California to other bees? Sure. Could happen. Do those other bees already have mites? Probably. Do I like it? No. Do I blame the migratory beekeepers? No.

Seems clear to me.

BTW, I'm NOT taking my 25 hives to California









George-


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## JaiPea (Sep 27, 2005)

Hi Michael,

> I can buy one by boards and cut them up into a frame
> much cheaper than I can buy dowels and build a frame.

Same here, and I use screws instead of nails, 1/2" thick instead of 3/8".

If you use a #8 countersink with the bit extended to predrill through the top/bottom bars into the end bars a coarse #7 screw puts little/no stress on the wood. Even though it is going into end grain, the screw will not split the bar unless you driving through a knot or past the drilled hole.

End grain makes a weak joint, but a 1 5/8" drywall screw provides an inch of thread retention and the joint does not tear apart in a straight pull. Sideways is acceptable so long as the ends are square and the pieces were butted closely together when screwing.

It's simple to construct a jig to position the precut pieces, drill four holes, then drive them home. If you used a center bar as well the frame would be stronger but I doubt it is necessary. You get some flex when you twist the empty frame but after the bees construct their comb all the way round there isn't any.

JP


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

>>I guess ole HarryVanderpool just can't resist being condescending - maybe that's how he demonstrates his intelligence?<<

Oh, come on! Coy maybe, but not condescending.

O.K.! I can't stand it any more! The following is a quote from Dr. Delaplane's book:

>Robbing. Infested colonies weakened by the activities of the mite are prone to robbing by other stronger colonies. Sakofski showed that 35% of the mites can be transfered into the robbing colony via the robber bees picking up mites or infested robbed bees which desert their hive and return with the robber bees.<

O.K. Thats Stephen J. Martin quoted right out of Dr. Deleplane's book.

So which way are we going to go on this, friends?
Do we ignore Deleplane and Martin, right along with Ellis? Of course not.

Remember that this began with a statement about how we will >>never understand mites<< if we don't run VarroaPOP.
Well, brothers and sisters; who developed VarroaPOP?? Answer: the same people that we are incouraged to ignore.

>>I guess ole HarryVanderpool just can't resist being condescending - maybe that's how he demonstrates his intelligence?<<

Good one, BD_Land. But I demonstrate my intelligence by reading, listening, learning and then showing the results to our industry.
No excuses.

Then in turn, I work closley with, and show the deepest respect for those that have cleared the path for us already.

There is so much work to do; why waste time rehashing what graduate students have spent zillions of hours proving out?


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Is there any reason one can't use oxalic acid treatments while they are in the almond orchard??


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

>>Is there any reason one can't use oxalic acid treatments while they are in the almond orchard??<<

Check out www.mitegone.com for some interesting views on treatments in the almonds.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Where on the site is the info on almonds?? Thanks


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## Curry (Sep 22, 2003)

"What variety beans were your bees working?"

I've been told that the best varieties are Group 5 or 6 determinant, but unfortunately, many growers are turning to a variety that doesn't produce much nectar (I believe it's called a Group 4 indeterminant... but not sure). Another problem with soybeans is that it needs to be a hot summer to produce. Last year was a cool summer for us, and soybeans did poorly.

How interesting that you quoted someone that differed from another quote... maybe that's why we should find out for ourselves. It's funny that Harry quotes from Deleplane- he's exactly the one I was referring to when I said beekeeping would be a pain in the rear if you did it like the PhD's want you to. Yes, unfortunately, I own his book and have seen his boring videos, and have learned some from him, but no way would I keep bees like him.

I've said plenty about mites in almonds, and I think that George is untimately right... it doesn't matter- people are going to take bees to almonds regardless. And here I am trying to take away peoples excuse for losing half their hives. Shame on me! So, yes, when you lose half your hives it was because that half robbed out someone elses half of their hives, and returned with their mites.

Everyone happy now?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Sundance:

Oxalic acid works best when the bees are broodless. I understand one can sublimate oxalic several times with no ill effect on the bees. You can only drizzle liquid oxalic once in the fall when the bees are broodless. If it is done a second time, the remaining cluster will be small in the spring. I applied liquid oxalic last fall on my nucleus. Some were weak, about half as many bees as my stronger nucleus. However both weak and strong nucleus got 5 ml of liquid oxalic between each frame of bees (35 grams of oxalic acid for every litre of 50/50 sugar syrup).The end result was not too many mites or bees in the weak nucleus. I think I overdosed them. The stronger nucs had plenty bees, and not so many mites.

Jean-Marc


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

>>Shame on me! So, yes, when you lose half your hives it was because that half robbed out someone elses half of their hives, and returned with their mites.<<

Yes, shame on you for yet again, the condescending tone about>>You People<<.
Has anyone in this thread said that they lost any hives due to mites from almonds?
Nope. 
What are you talking about?
I havent lost hives to mites for about seven years. NO EXCUSES!
Varroa mites have been around too long for us beekeepers to play ostridge.
We have to be as good of "mitekeepers" as we are "beekeepers" for the forseeable future, meaning that we understand mites as good as we understand bees.
This won't happen with blindfolds on.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I give considerable credence to members of this post. Controlled experiments by Delaplane at U Of Georgia and Calderone at Cornell's Dyce have value but neither the PHD's or thier conditions replicate what "real" beekeepers and real conditions are. They certainly aren't bringing about results in a timely manner. Keith and Nick live in a place called academia where at the end of the day they go home from work and if they fail have lost no investment other than their time which is well paid. 1.5 mllion hives/450 Mile stretch of California,the story is already written. The issue will center around the creation of the supermite, super beetle (respects to VW) and super spore by those abusing what little control we have available and the combined threat of those issues. There will be difficulties, great or small, from the 2% (3,000)africanized hives that will be migrated to all corners of the country and how this will impact us an industry. The nature of overcrowding single species of plants, insects or animals into the space we do in modern agriculture makes this the norm. Have we faced so many challenges at once in the past? We could be facing a pardigm shift in bee management over the next 5 to 10 yrs.(Like South America only more populated, civilized, press covered and mites, SHB and resistanct AFB to boot). It's already started. 1100 mating nucs in one operation lost this spring to SHB that did not respond to cumophos, resistant foulbrood and mites becoming the norm. Now I've printed posts from several members here. I value Jim's experiance as both a "researcher" and a real beekeeper with an investment, MB's dedication to his very successful protocol, as well as what I glean from many "beekeepers" at all levels of seniority on this post. Some will continue to cry fear mongor. Some will lean into the wind, perservere and protect their investments, large and small by keeping educated and sharing what they learn and their experiances.
Those going to CA in Jan- make a bundle, face the problems head on and share with us. We are going to solve our industries challenges, not the entomolgists at some University! Some of us have worked hard for a couple of decades to build a viable business we expect to pass on. I have a 14 yr old son who works shoulder to shoulder with me and if I accomplish nothing other than passing him a business he loves and that keeps him from punching a time card ever in his life I've succeded. Others have found a hobby that gives them great satisfaction and peace. None of us can afford to have a pollyanna attitude in what is likely a very pivotal time for our industry.


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## thekeeper (Nov 24, 2004)

Oxcilic can be used while their is brood just have to use crystal evaporator and not to use too much of the gas.It is still best to use when their is no brood and after queens are mated.I have used it and if queen is not mated she layed chalk brood and dwarf bees.(bees that are smaller and easier to aggravate)

Still mites are the worst problem in the orchards and now it will be the hive beetle soon.First year ever having the problem with the beetles.Never have till this last pollination season when some keepers brought them to CA. 
What is the next thing that will be a problem for us keepers. The price of honey went way down again. Dam foreign honey. shouldnt be imported unless it is white or clear. Wouls keep the prices good for us all who make a living off our bees.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Read this for further enlightenment from your favorite authority:

21. Toward delaying economic threshold for Varroa. K.S. Delaplane. 2002. Proceedings of the North American Apicultural Research Symposium, Niagara Falls, Ontario

to be found at: http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/Research/archives.htm

Here is a direct quote from Dr. Delaplane:

"I conclude that apiary isolation, hygienic-selected queens, and screen bottom boards have presently failed to delay economic threshold for V. destructor."

THE authority has spoken - so we're wasting our time with apiary isolation, hygienic queens and screened bottom boards. I sure hope SC is the answer! Why doesn't someone just develope a microwave that frys mites but not bees?


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

"Why doesn't someone just develope a microwave that frys mites but not bees? "

Someone did, but I haven't heard much from him lately. Electricity generated heat sent through drone frames that is hot enough to kill mites but not enough to kill bees.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Tim, there is a method of treatment for varroa that involves baking the bees in an oven of sorts- hot enough to kill the mites but not the bees. I don't know how well it worked or whether it's being pursued still. I think it was initially tested in Israel. I don't remember exactly where I ran across it- I can probably find the reference if you (or anyone else) is interested.

George-


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

>>Read this for further enlightenment from your favorite authority<<

Well I have never thought much about who was my favorite, but I'm sure he rates fairly high on the list.

Thank you, db_land for the killer link.
I had an overwhelming day today so only glanced through it. I will give it a careful read.

In reading your comments from Dr. Delaplane, I was reminded of a speaker that we had a few years back at the O.S.B.A. fall conference.
He had data showing that some configuration of screened bottom board INCREASED mite loads.
I think it was fully open screens that drop to the ground. Does this sound at all familiar to you?
If my lousy memory serves me right, the drop in ambient temperature surrounding the cluster somehow caused a positive effect in varroa morphology.
As a footnote, we were finishing up on 3 USDA grants here in Oregon that year, and noted that after several days of 100 degree days with high humidity, the daily drops in our hives lessened on their own for a bit. >regular bottom boards<
There was a panel discussion at the end of that conference and all of the speakers agreed that when colonies are faced with difficult cooling conditions in hot weather, mite loads lessen some.
Any one have anything on this?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

When using screened bottom boards that are open the brood nest temperature can drop slightly. This temperature drop increases the time necessary for adult bees to emerge and allows more time for varroa mites to mature. So instead of getting 2-3 mites per hatching adult bee you end up with 3-4 mites per adult bee. With time varroa populations can increase faster with screened bottom boards. This effect can be observed in cooler climates or conditions.

Jean-Marc


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

HEY YOU ALL HIJACKED MY THREAD!!  I just wanted to know the price of almond pollination.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Lets see--it went from that to mites to robbing to argueing,back to mites to top bar hives then to screen bottoms -and wasnt small cell mentioned somewhere?I dont know it seems pretty normal to me.


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

I just was offered 125


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Let's not forget the AHB element too, plus a few cheap shots at the migratory beekeepers, who to their credit, took it well









Good thread Trevor. Start another one, this one's almost done.

George-


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## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

I don't have almond offers, but, I am starting to get requests for garden and fruit tree and vinyard pollinations. Didn't ask or advertise, they came to me, and here I am with one hive, another on the way and at least two packages in the spring from Jester's. I wonder if anyone has done this before? I'm not in it for profit. It's a hobby and I plan on stopping at about 20-30 hives. 

David


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

Turn down the vineyard one.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Tim, why no vineyard contract? I live in the Finger Lakes region of upstate NY. We have numerous Wineries and have been considering grape pollination within the next 2 or three years as my son reaches adult life. Our main focus has always been honey for direct resale. Intrested in any thoughts we should be considering.


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

While certain seeded grape varieties MAY benefit SLIGHTLY from honeybee pollination, the chief honey source from grapes is ripe berries that wasps have chewed open. I certainly wouldn't count on vineyard managers giving you any money for your services.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Let me tell you Joel; if grapes required bees for pollination we would all be trillion-aires up here in the Willamette Valley.
Dang IT!!!!
I listened to a speaker the other day talking about how she needed bees to pollinate her corn.
There's another one. Can you imagine the pollination contracts if that were true?
The new real oportunity may be seed crops for Bio-fuel. I have my fingers crossed on that one.

notaclue >>I'm not in it for profit. It's a hobby and I plan on stopping at about 20-30 hives.<<

Almost every great commercial beekeeper that I know said the same line at first. Word for word.

I said the exact sentence years ago. As the years go by, you say the same words but insert higher numbers.









I hope you have as much fun in your operation as we have. My advice: (not that you asked for it) is to double every year, no more.
You will have 32 hives in 5 years. That is very managable. Depending on floral sourses in your area, the 20 - 40 area is where you will need to find another yard. You may want to start looking for that second yard right now.  

Also, go down and buy Quickbooks and load it into your computer right away.
Track every penny you spend (no fudging!) and take in. Have fun!


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Harry......... The QuickBooks suggestion is a good one. I would add get the Pro edition.

As for BioFuel seeds and bean.......... I think the future regarding bees is not a good one in that industry. Already soybeans are GM'd as to not need pollination and ethanol is likely (and should) shift to cellulose based production (ie switch grass, and aspen trees).


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

>>seed crops for Bio-fuel.
I'm guessing you are referring to canola.I've been watching that too.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

Joel, you've got to let the chickens into the vinyard at night and then let the bees clean up the mess the next day. Twice a week for a month and you've made yourself a great honey crop. Otherwise, there's NO money is grape pollination. They don't need us.

Hawk

P.S. Sorry Trevor


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## miele (Sep 17, 2005)

I've watched my bees get juice from grapes in the vineyard next door. I've also seen yellow jackets devastate a grape crop- I would guess that bees could do a good bit of damage as well.


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

Maybe a bit, but not much, the bees mouth parts don't chew like wasps. Bees often get blamed for that kind of damage, though, since they're seen feeding from the wounds.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Yes, canola was what I was thinking about.
Seems to me that they are going to need a ton of bees.
We are already pollinating meadowfoam. 3 hives per acre.
It looks like the oil seed industry is the area to watch in pollination.


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## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

We have a lot of blueberries, blackberries and more demand for rasberries along with the ever present strawberries. Alfalfa doesn't grow too well down here yet.

I'm not up to speed on Biofuels. What are the primary crops and are they using old grease/vegetable oils and what kind of hybrids are there that do not require bee pollination?

David


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Thanks for the answers on grape pollination guys, I'll take that off my 5 yr plan.


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## Robert Hawkins (May 27, 2005)

miele and Tim, The bees do NOT damage grapes unless the skin is already broken. then they'll take the whole berry. so if the yellow jackets and the chickens haven't beenthere first, no damage. 
Don't blame the bees for cleaning up nectar.

Hawk


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## Laurence Hope (Aug 24, 2005)

How much would the price for almond pollination have to be to move hives from Florida to Calif profitably?


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Laurence,
Strange you would ask such a question being from California. I was involved with a 17 semi shipment years ago. The beekeeper said never again!

Hard to ship bees such a long way. Queen loss can be high.

A few figures for you to think about.

1. At least $2 a mile both ways for trucking. 
2.broker fees.
3. six to 10 dollars per hive for loading,unloading and placing in and out of almonds.
4. extra charges for feeding.
5. possible fire ant problems at port of entry.
5a. huge amount of labor involved in Florida to clean each skid. place on plastic before shipping to *try* to solve fire ant problem.
6. California might be checking for AHB on Florida loads this year. Might not even let in without a clear bill of health from the Florida inspection service.

I suggest all thinking of California Almond pollination to read my article "pros & cons of almond pollination" in the April 2005 American Bee Journal pg.295.

Also remember I did not list every pitfall.


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## Laurence Hope (Aug 24, 2005)

Thanks, Rob. I was asking the question for the Florida beekeeper that started this thread and recently asked again. I don't know if I will move my few hives "around the corner" for almond pollination.


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## carbide (Nov 21, 2004)

A friend of mine was just quoted $15,000 to truck his 800 hives from here in Pennsylvania to the almond fields in California. Oh yeah, and the same amount to bring them back. He was also quoted $40/hive for broker fees.  

I believe he has made up his mind to forget the whole idea. He says he can probably make more profit by just taking his bees to the other side of the state for the apple orchards. The pollination fees are much lower but the risks are also.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

My goal is to own my own semi. Transport my own hives. Cut out the broker, cut out the hauler. And I will babysit my bees, treat as needed, feed as needed, etc.

The grower will get a superior product and service. And I will be more assured my bees are secure and taken care of.

For the $30,000 dollar roundtrip fee you can buy one fine tractor and 48' flatbed!!


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

I live 425 miles away from my almond grower so I have the same view on things. For sure, at your distance, a semi is the economic way.
For years before I took my bees to almonds, I always said to myself that there would be no brokers, no loading and unloading charges, and that I would take them on my own rig.
That's how it turned out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Shallotman/Almonds2005013.jpg

[ October 07, 2005, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: HarryVanderpool ]


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

I couldn't get the link to work


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

As an ex owner-operator, I think you are in for a big surprise. The cost of the tractor and trailer is going to be the LEAST expense you have. The truck ins., the cargo ins., the base tags, the individual state permits, repairs, fuel, eats, ETC. will make your truck price look like peanuts.
Still, I would do the same thing. I'm not trying to discourage you, just trying to give you a clearer picture.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Buy farm tags and only haul your own bees. What i do!

Many beekeepers drive around scales! All truck stops sell the books with the routes to avoid scales!Highlighted in orange.

Texas & Florida are easy to avoid scales.

California is harder but still possible.

Scales and older trucks can be expensive!

I got lost so to speak coming out of Florida last April and a DOT helped me find my way back to the scales. Nice chap! He was not buying my getting lost story but was nice and simply looked at my load (empty deep supers) and let me go.

My story was I was looking for cheap fuel I heard was on the highway which bypassed the scale! The scale man said there was cheap fuel up the road and I could go get a tank right after we went back to the scale house.

Your tax dollars at work!


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I will be doing the farm tag as well. My own bee hauling will likely be its only job.

I had thought of hauling a few loads of grain and the sugar beet run each year. (loads of bucks in a couple of weeks). But is insurance is prohibitive.... I'll pass.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

I go by the letter of the law, drive carefully, live right, and have fun!
First thing for those interested, is to look into farm insurance.
Ours covers the business, farm, house, equipment and tools, hives, cows, etc.....all in one policy.
Its Agri-plus. Then, through the same company, insure your trucks.
On to the farm plates:
Here is something I have heard a zillion times from all corners. So it's either true or a monster urban legend:
"When the cops see that "F" on your plates, the just say "F orget it!" 
The meaning that I have gotten out of this is that they are a bit more leanient about loads, etc... Any of you heard that?
Next: permits:
In order to legally cross the border into Cal from Oregon you have to have a permit. You can pick one up at a truck stop in Phoenix Oregon.
Some people don't bother. But the word is that if you don't have it and get pulled over,  
Next is tarping.
So last year I have the Killer Bee Truck loaded to the gills with hives as I roll into the inspection station at the border at about 1 a.m.
The lady checks out the load, we get all of the paperwork done, then she looks at me and says,"Are you aware that there is a county in California that requires that loads of bees be tarped 24 hrs / day?"
I said, "No, what county is that???"
She answered, " The one you are standing in"!!"
  
Thankfully she was an agriculture person only!
Anyone have anything to add to this?
Great discussion!


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Take a peek: 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/Shallotman/Almonds2005026.jpg

In the dead rainy miserable winter of Oregon, nothing could make a colony of bees happier than to wake up to this!!!


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Yes the law is more leanient as they see you are a dumb ass farmer! Doing your dumb ass farmer act!

However if your truck is of the size that you must carry a commercial drivers license and a DOT number the DOT looks at you differently.Sometimes they want proof the load is yours. They ask questions like. "If these are your hives why do they have another beekeepers names branded on the boxes?" I have had to dig for the box with Bill of sales for many brands. A beekeeper I once bought from Doug Gabbert gave me a bill of sale for over 10 brands of beekeepers he had bought out. Many beekeepers put their brand upside down over the old brand (Osage Honey Farms) but I think then it really looks strange.
The only thing every asked at Chino, California is to see the Missouri permit saying our hives come from a fire ant free state. Never leave home without it.
The only tarp we ever use is on the front of the load to break the wind for the first few stacks of hives going to California. We always net loads going very far but not doing apple pollination or moving hives into holding yard in cool weather.
Surely you don't suggest they want the whole load covered with a tarp?
There are many permits migratory beekeepers do not worry about. I have never entered California from oregon so never heard of the permit. What is the permit for?
We blew an engine right before Chino in 2001 and limped into the Chino scale to wait for a wrecker to tow us to Bakersfield. They were watching the axle lengths and weights mostly. You would not believe the number of violations I saw missed. The truck had less than 100 miles when we headed for California. First broke down in Barstow.The dealer at Barstow had zero parts as a first year engine. Replaced an injector and said it was fixed . About 10 miles from Chino the truck would not run over 10MPH. So we drove to Chino 10MPH on the shoulder. Bakersfield dealer gave us a truck to use and we picked the other truck up a week later. The new truck was bought because the old truck had broke down the year before. Old or new they all can break down!
Never a dull moment in beekeeping!


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

Nice Pic, Harry. I only do 30 hives for my almond guy (he's just up the road from me) every year (what with eucalyptus blooming at that time and the price for it's honey I usually make more money from the euc honey than almond pollination so I keep most of my hives here). I would probably make a profit on those hives if the location wasn't so lovely, but I can't resist going up there and checking out the bees.

Regards
Tim


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

>>Yes the law is more leanient as they see you are a dumb ass farmer! Doing your dumb ass farmer act!<<

Good enough for me! Here, how does this sound?:
" It wad the kin-folk dat said, Caly forny is the payse ya plumb aught-a be wif dem dar hives".

>>However if your truck is of the size that you must carry a commercial drivers license and a DOT number the DOT looks at you differently.<<

My rig is plated for 21500#. No worries.

>>Surely you don't suggest they want the whole load covered with a tarp?<<

I'm not suggesting anything. I am reporting to you what the gal at the border told me.

>>There are many permits migratory beekeepers do not worry about. I have never entered California from oregon so never heard of the permit. What is the permit for?<<

Yes, I am also very confused about this. It has to do with DOT and not having a California plate.
A commercial rig doing business in Cal must have eather a plate or a tempoary permit. Very fuzzy.

We as beekeepers need to assemble a list or manual about all of this. Now I'm being told that Farm trucks must have a DOT number as of last year.
Where are we supposed th learn about all of this?
Wait until we are handed a huge ticket???


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

The DOT number is a fuzzy area also. Most scale people expect a DOT number on 36,000 & up trucks but then realize most farmers are not involved with regs when only hauling your *own equipment* down the road on rare occasions. Width limits do not apply to combines as do tags and they are in all ways motor vehicles with turn signals and lights .
Agriculture does work a bit different than commercial hauling. I will be gone until tonight George. Day starts today at 3 am. Farming is listed on my tax return as is beekeeping.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

It's a good thing you're retired Bob, otherwise you might be real busy.

Jean-Marc


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Many levels of retired Jean-Marc.

The lure of easy money can bring a retired beekeeper back full time for short profitable stints.

I still have got enough equipment around for a small commercial operation, swinger forklift and trucks.

I am trying to forget about almond pollination and take the winter off but the lure of easy money keeps dancing in my head.

My get rich quick idea of a *patch* (similar to a nicotine patch) for beekeepers addicted to beekeeping has not worked! To quit completely they need to go *cold turkey*. Sell every piece of beekeeping equipment and replace with other interests. Sadly most observed have fallen off the BBB wagon and returned to keeping with at least a couple hives! Even our friend Allen Dick has not been able to free himself of the beekeeping addiction! I will keep working on the patch despite the dismal results for far!
I find former beekeepers when even lie to family & friends and keep a couple hives stashed in remote areas and sneak away to observe the bees! The pull of beekeeping as been amazing to observe. *Bee fever* effects all ages and can make a person beg ,borrow or on rare occasions steal the money to invest in beekeeping!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Maybe all bee equipment should come with a surgeon general's warning.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I suppose that if you went from several thousand down to several hundred then it would probably seem like a breeze. Now is not the time to forgo almond pollination, at least not with these prices. Maybe your patch should come complete with live bees, just to get your venom hit.

Jean-Marc


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

For those which did not read my article on the pro's & con's of almond pollination (April 2005 ABJ) one of the big pros to one beekeeper may be a con for another.

If you are trying to keep your numbers down then a semi load of hives returning from almonds is a con unless you have got a market for the brood. 8-12 frames of brood is not unusual. without work the bees will start hitting the trees!

Most need reworked before Apples. Again after apples!

First time California almond pollinators should be listening carefully to the information I provide.

A friend last year with over 6000 hives in almonds could only do a 1 into 2 split. The year before he did a 1-4 split to keep the bees out of the trees!

In my case I have got a week to 10 days to go through hundreds of hives and make splits before apples.

I do not need the hassle. Been there and done that BUT like in poker ( a game I like to play) when the pot gets bigger you slide to the edge of your seat and pay close attention!

Migratory beekeeping is like commercial fishing and playing poker in many ways!

You gamble and sometimes you win big. Sometimes you gamble and lose big.

Just because you made a bumper crop last year in a certain location does not mean you will this year! Take the time to drive to the area and look around before moving the hives in!

I lost money on a remote wildflower location last year. Went to look. Thousand acres of wildflowers! Moved hives off sunflowers! Started counting the crop before in supers. Went back an less than a barrel total. All went into the brood nest. The hives had not made the honey on sunflowers I thought the should have OR simply did not store the wildflower.

I should have paid closer attention!


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

A 1 intom 2 split seems pretty good. 1 into 4 is too much work, and on would need a lot of equipment. that's what I don't get with my fellow Canadians. Why wouldn't they want a split from every hive, plus you get a good pollination fee. Keeping the numbers up takes a lot of effort in some parts of Canada, most of them for that matter. In most parts the season is short. The opportunity to make numbers up is limited by time and the reative strength of hives. Yeah sure, varroa, super varroa, resistant AFB,SHB, AHB, but then there is cash. I for one would like to have access to the Varroa resistant strains of bees ( Purvis Brothers, russian stock).

Jean-Marc


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

I know Jean-Marc understands what I am about to say but others may still not understand what I am talking about.A huge amount of support equipment is neccessary for the commercial beekeeper to operate. Numbers of hives are NEVER the same! The numbers in spring are directly related to the number of splits you have got to make up to prevent swarming. You open a hive plugged with brood 8 weeks beofre your honey flow and brood has to be pulled to keep the bees from swarming!

The friend of mine with the 6,000 hives needed tops, 4 way skids, feeders ,brood nest boxes for 18,000 hives to keep his bees from all swarming that season. Being a member of the Adee clan the number of equipment needed was available.
After combining the next fall and with deadouts ended up with around 8000 strong hives. He took his losses in the fall!
Ignoring the problem(not working the overflowing hives) results in massive swarming witch results in zero honey crop for those hives and with the commercial lines I have tested only 50% or less requeen. Using *requeening after swarming*as a breeder queen selection trait I can raise the requeening after swarming to close to 95%.
All the Russian lines I have tested and worked with over the last four years have had a close to 100% requeen after swarming. A wonderful trait for the commercial beekeeper!


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Not only do you need all the equipment, but you need the labour to do the work. I had great hives this spring and it nearly killed me. Kept pulling brood to try and keep them. I got a new line of bees and they keep the honey close to the brood nest, as a matter of fact a lot in the second box. So we spent a lot of time pulling brood above the excluder and making increases. A lot of work but hey , I asked for it. Beekeepers have to watch what they wish for, because the good Lord may grant them their wishes as a punishment.

Jean-Marc


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

I love prolific bees but others cuss prolific bees. They are extra work and require mangement as Jean-Marc says!
They need constant watching over to prevent swarming in spring and to shut down brood rearing for winter at the correct time.
The Russians of the last four years are the exact opposite! The Russians require a different management. The difference is like night & day. 
Because my new friend Jean-Marc has asked I will say a few things I do not like about the Russians in general.
They are not suited in my opinion for all areas. In my area my methods are designed for doing certain things so many weeks ahead of our main honey flow. The only time my prolific bees (Italians) shut down is (if at all) when we get a week of cooler weather about the time the blackberries bloom which we beekeepers call "Blackberry winter". 
The Russians on the other hand shut down with every cool period or slight dearth of nectar. It is like they can not see the forest for the trees. Keep on rearing brood ladies as the flow IS coming regardless of a few cool spells! The trait makes management hard in my opinion.
They are easiest to manage in my opinion in areas where after the spring rains end the weather turns hot and stays.
This year we had a wet April (good) then severe drought for the entire month of July (not good as burned up clover) and then above normal rain (good for next years clover crop). Every year is different in Missouri(unless you are not in tune with the weather & plants then each year may seem similar)


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Bob:

Seeing as how you regard me as your new friend, I figure now's a good time to ask for a favour. Some time ago (last spring) I had asked Dan Purvis if he could ship into Canada. He said he had a friend who would be looking into it. He did not say who the friend was, but I think it was you. I don't think I ever got a final answer from him. I assume the SHB is the impasse, otherwise I would really like to try a few.

Jean-Marc


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## Almond Grower (May 25, 2005)

As always supply and demand will set the price of hive rental. Almond acreage will be up only slightly in 2006. Bearing almond acreage will increase dramatically in 2007-08 and demand for good hives will increase. Almond prices will likely drop. 

The last 2 years have been cold and wet during the bloom. The resulting decline in almond production combined with increased world wide consumption has created a shortage that has pushed almond prices up to $3.80 lb.(to the grower) for Nonpareil. Even with the light almond crop, most almond growers budgets are fairly healthy. Every almond grower wants as many hives as he can afford.

Last year most hives in my area rented for $80. There was definite resistance to $100 bees.

For those with concerns with getting mites or AHB while in almond country, I have kept 50 hives for pollinating my own almonds for over ten years. I have never had a hive turn African. As far as mites Apistan is still working well for me.

Anyone looking to make contact with almond growers should place an ad in the local classifieds by Nov. 1st.

Any of these would be good:

The Modesto Bee
The Fresno Bee
The Bakersfield Californian
Nut Grower (magazine)
Pacific Nut Producer (magazine)

Most of the growers around Modesto are farming small acreage (10-40 acres) and are a good match to sideline beekeepers with 20 to 100 hives. It is usually a good idea to get your contracts signed early.

Lets hope we have a warm dry profitable spring here in California!

Steve Dampier


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Steve,
I was delighted to see an almond grower /beekeeper on the list! Welcome!
I posted about growers saying they will not even pay a 100. Those which did not get hives (or enough hives for maximum pollination) have been contacting beekeepers wanting to sign contracts.
Many are waiting to take their chances. Should be interesting to see the way things play out! 
Friendly advice:
I would test to see about half way through your apistan treatment to see how well its working! Varroa populations grow when apistan is in midwest hives. Both apistan & checkmite no longer work in many areas. Commercial beekeepers doing blanket treatments with both (without testing)are losing thousands of hives all over the U.S..
Could save you a $5,000 pollination fee next spring for a 50 hive rental!
Keep us posted on whats going on with California almond pollination Steve!


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## Trevor Mansell (Jan 16, 2005)

I have a friend that just signed contracts for $140.00. Just to keep you all posted.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

So how does one stay "small" (500 colonies) on reture from almond polliination??

If the market is soft for brood do you just freeze frames of brood as a management tool??


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

If you figure a way Bruce I am all ears! You have to either make splits or try and control swarming by some means. You can make splits and then combine later in the season but you end up with your bees in three deeps.
You can shook swarm but you still end up with increase.
The problem with selling brood in my case is my bees are all on new comb which has never had chemicals used. 
I never thought of freezing brood but seems a waste.
A three brood chamber system is the way most beekeepers use to stay at a certain number of hives. Make increase. combine in fall. make a single increase the next spring.


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## T's Bees (Oct 10, 2005)

I'm new to this (beekeeping in general and pollination in particular), but to avoid excessive brood and maybe control some of the mites that would attach to the brood, couldn't you cage your queens for part of the time? 

I imagine this has its own set of problems, such as time and timing. Maybe you can't cage her for a long enough time to make it worth the time to find and cage her? 

Has anyone tried something like this during early spring pollination?

Having a person present to cage queens might also be a spendy proposition. Do most folks drop their bees and return only to pick up, or do some stay and tend?


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

T's bees,
Caging a queen would work but not a method I would use or endorse on a large scale. 

Our most valuable instrumental insemination breeder queens have got a reduced laying area which amounts to about 3 frames. To conserve sperm.

I see this is your first post so maybe you do not subscribe to the American Bee Journal. If you do and can lay your hands on the April 2005 issue my article on the pro's & con's of almond pollination should bring you up to speed.

To answer your question most California beekeepers place their hives in the groves. I am not sure the ratio of out of state beekeepers which place their own hives in groves or use a broker and a placement service.

I have done both.

Large beekeepers almost always place their own hives. The reason being around the first of February the phone rings and all the hives need put in. The largest beekeeper staying with us brought around 10,000 hives to California, two 10 wheel trucks and two crews. They could put in around 2000 hives a night.

Not many of the advertised people installing hives into groves can handle that kind of volume.

$6 is an average for movement of hives into and out of groves by those providing the service. At 2000 hives a night the cost to the large beekeeper just for the movement in (or out) would run around $6000 a night. 

Figure two trucks fuel cost and labor for 4-6 emplyees(for the night) and you can see a big savings can be had by placing your own hives!


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## T's Bees (Oct 10, 2005)

Rob/Bob,

I will check out your article.

Can you elaborate on 

"Our most valuable instrumental insemination breeder queens have got a reduced laying area which amounts to about 3 frames. To conserve sperm."

Thanks


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Thanks for your invaluable input on pollination Bob (or do you prefer Rob??)

I am constantly questioning my business plan and suffer anxiety about pollination, even though it is a year and 1/2 off. Your advise eases my mind a bit.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

T's bees,
We use a long coffin type hive divided in the middle by two upright pieces of queen excluder giving the queen only room to lay on three frames.
The idea is to cut down her egg production and prevent her (or the hive) from swarming.
Bruce.
Bob is what I go by. Those beekeepers which read the bee magazines will not be fooled by the name Rob. I do need to direct beekeepers to prior articles at times to save on typing.
Many say I am wasting my time on lists but I do not think so! The industry needs beekeepers. Beekeeping is not the way to gain riches. The work is hot & hard and the problems are many. Can be a rewarding life style for many. Getting into beekeeping with money as the only reason is the way to fail for sure. many have made a decent living from beekeeping.
One of the most interesting articles I have done is in the November 2005 ABJ. Will have the whole U.S. beekeeping world buzzing!


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Looking forward to your article Rob!


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I too will be looking forward to your article Bob.

I certainly am into beekeeping for the money. But it is not the only or main factor. I am not looking to get rich but hope to make $50,000 a year would be nice. My numbers may be unrealistic, but with 400 to 500 colonies and pollination and honey should yeild at least that.

If I am dreaming let me know.....


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## Brian Suchan (Apr 6, 2005)

Sundance I think you had better talk to some migratory guys & see if they make that much for every 400-500 hives. There are so many variables any more And costs are so high & profits so very little.


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

What he said.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

An interesting article about the current almond situation in Ca:
http://www.cfbf.com/agalert/AgAlertStory.cfm?ID=453&ck=49AE49A23F67C759BF4FC791BA842AA2
It touched on pollination.I found the growers comments interesting:
Growing almonds depends upon pollination, which in California requires about 1.1 million bee colonies. More than half of the necessary bees now are brought from other states. Additional colonies are needed not only to keep pace as growers plant more almond acreage, but also to replace hives destroyed by infestations of the Varroa mite. The need for pollination becomes especially important once the trees reach their full production. But some growers aren't concerned about the supply of bees.

"These bee guys, they'll come up with the bees. They are making money like you wouldn't believe. Five, six years ago I was paying $35 a hive. Last year I paid $85, and this year we are expected to pay at least $120 to $125 per hive," said Yuba County grower Sunny Kalkat, who raises almonds, walnuts, prunes and peaches. "Bees have never been an issue; it is just how much they want to charge for them. That is the way supply and demand works."

University of California Cooperative Extension specialist Eric Mussen, an entomologist who specializes in bees and bee pollination, says California's need for pollination could conceivably outstrip availability of bee colonies in the coming years.

"This past spring we needed 1.1 million colonies. In the next 10 years if they increase acreage the way they are talking about, we'd need 1 and a half million and we've only got a little over 2 million in the country. So well over half of the commercial bees in the United States are going to have to be out here in February," Mussen said. "You have to be a real optimist to look at it the way growers do. I just hope they never have a year where the bees can't get in and at least do a reasonable job for a few days and get a pretty good crop on the trees."


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Sure Sonny is not worried he has walnuts, prunes & peaches to fall back on.

Eric Mussen is the guy with the correct facts.

The solution to the problem in 2007-2008 when a huge number of almond orchards come into production lies with Canadian beekeepers.
over 600,000 hives could be sent if the border was opened.

News from the bordor opening issue:

The two big holdups to the border opening are the Canada beekeepers not wanting to give California beekeepers access to the Peace River honey producing areas and Large U.S. beekeepers not wanting the border open as the 600,000 hives would drop almond pollination prices back to only higher than old levels.

Many forces at work when you look closely at the sides involved. I was asked to look into the issue and do not see the border opening for the 2006 season as both sides are not finding common ground as both sides has an agenda and the agenda is not the interest of almond growers!


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Its hard to see where any common ground could be found, as beekeeps are notoriously territorial.I have wondered for awhile how the borders were remaining closed with the free trade agreements.It seems someone could push the issue.But it would have to be a 2 way street.Canada hives would come to the US ,winter here pollinate almonds,raise queens and nucs then work their way North. Cal. queens, packages and nucs(couldnt keep them out if Canadian bees on combs were allowed in here) go to Canada.US honey producers could work the Canadian flows.Its hard to see the whole picture on how disruptive or positive this could be, but an over supply of bees for almonds would be bad for beekeeps, just like the current glut of honey is depressing prices.
At least for the time being, almond pollination is OUR opportunity to use or lose.

[ October 13, 2005, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: loggermike ]


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

I believe Loggermike has a clear picture of the situation!

My advice to fellow beekeepers about the bordor problem was to sit and wait. Throwing a clever lawyer and money might not help right now.

I was told yesterday by an informed source although (I have net checked the information personally but will upon my return from Kansas next week) that the Chinese tarriff loophole has been closed. China honey now coming into the U.S. is higher than the current price for U.S. honey. Can anyone confrim this information?

The down side is the packers saw this coming and have stocked up the source told me! Some bought Chinese honey as low as .37 a pound I have been told.

My sources are usually very accurate (or at least very close) but I have not seen similar statements in print or on the net.

A return to high honey prices in Canada could effect the bordor opening.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Although there 600 000 hives in Canada, there is no way that it implies 600 000 hives are available for almond pollination. There are roughly 450 000 hives in the Western provinces. Most of these are in the hands of commercial beekeepers, say 400 000. Of these about 60 000 are in the hands of guys that pollinate canola. I think most would go for almond pollination, but there are many that are protectionist. They will argue about rAFB AHB SHB and blah,blah,blah, resistant tyhis or that. What it really boils down to is they are fearful of losing their canola pollination contracts. Those contracts took them from marginal existence to a respectable living. It brought financial stability and allowed some to put large oufits together.

I personally do not see more than 100 000 hives going to almonds. Many beekeepers are not palletized and hives are stationary. If the border upons up California packages become available at a more reasonable price than the current Aus., N.Z. situation. If the demand for almonds stays up then the U.S. utilizes all packages internally and prices stay high for bees.
A slight oversupply of packages bees and prices become competitive and Canadian beekeepers stay home. The idea being bees are cheap and I'll replace deadouts with packages because I like sleeping in my own bed. More later

Jean-Marc


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks for the information Jean-Marc! The 600,000 hive figure came directly from the Almond Pollination Handbook update 2005 by Joe Traynor.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Pros and Cons of almond pollination for *beekeepers*.
*Pros*: Collection of fees; some colonies build-up well on almonds.
*Cons*: Some colonies get PMS, other diseases, AHB, dead hives from robbing, etc. and the expense and difficulties of moving the bees in and back home again. Vandalized and/or stolen hives.

Pros and Cons of almond pollination for *growers*.
*Pros*: With sufficient honeybees and suitable weather, optimum crop is realized.
*Cons*: Payment of fees; if weather conditions arent optimum during pollination period, efficacy of bees may be adversely affected (poor crop despite bees).

A *rough* analogy: For two months every year move the entire population of the northern hemisphere into the state of Washington and then move whoever survives, if any, back home again.

Seems beekeepers get the short end of the stick. Lots of effort and risk for very little reward. Growers merely pay a set fee per hive, hope for suitable bloom-time weather and thats that.


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

Joseph, I'll add one more CON. Loss of the Eucalyptus/wildflower honey crop. Even with a net profit of 100 dollars for pollination for me it doesn't really work out on a year of good weather where I can get 80 pounds of honey that will retail for 3 bucks a pound.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Tim- If commercial pollinators retailed their honey, they probably wouldn't bother hauling their hives all over creation in the first place. Or am I missing something? I spoke to one migratory fellow who said he sold all his honey from last winter/spring in Florida for 86 cents a pound..

George-


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## Tim Vaughan (Jun 23, 2002)

Very true George. But still, there are places in So. Cal. where you can get 200 pounds per hive from the Eucs. I should have qualified that "con" since it's so limited.
Regards


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

OK, so I suppose I'm being naive here, but why don't a bunch of commerical beekeepers get together and set up a co-op to merchandize and market their honey?

George-


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

They do and have. It's called Sue Bee.

Jean-Marc


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Tim Vaughan, said: 


> Joseph, I'll add one more CON. Loss of the Eucalyptus/wildflower honey crop. Even with a net profit of 100 dollars for pollination for me it doesn't really work out on a year of good weather where I can get 80 pounds of honey that will retail for 3 bucks a pound.


In other words, almond growers would have to up their rate, quite a bit, to entice you to forego Eucalyptus honey and help them to get a good crop of almonds.

Sure sounds like beekeepers desiring to be in the almond pollination business might benefit by forming an almond pollination co-op so they can all get the best price for their services.

In a few years the almond growers are going to need almost every beehive in this country to get their trees up to optimum productivity. After hearing some of the horror stories some beekeepers have shared, I'd not want to take a chance with almond pollination unless I could be sure that the pollination fees were truly worth all the work and bother.

[ October 13, 2005, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: Joseph Clemens ]


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>>They do and have. It's called Sue Bee.

Doh!!

George-


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Is that sue bee or Sioux Bee?


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

One and the same Joel... After Jean-Marc's reply, I went to their web site last night and read their history page:

http://www.suebeehoney.com/history.asp

Originally it was Sioux Bee, but they changed it to Sue Bee in 1964 apparently because people couldn't properly pronounce "sioux" :-/

I gotta say, I was surprised. It *is* a cooperative, at least it certainly started out that way. It would appear to have evolved into a world-wide marketing operation, buying honey wherever they can get it at as cheap a price as possible. To me, "Sue Bee" honey is synonymous with "Cheap" supermarket honey.

The concept of a honey co-op makes a lot of sense.. I guess I'm not surprised that it's been done before (I rarely have an original idea) but the Sue Bee business model seems to have evolved over the years into something less about supporting beekeepers and more about making money.

George-


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Most of the larger bee operations in my area met in 95 or 96 in Ithaca to discuss an eastern coop. No one wanted to take a leadership role in putting it together although everyone thought it would be a good idea. Sioux (Sue) has an incredible marketing marketing outreach. They are even in the the 7-11 type stores in our area. From what I've read their members seem loyal. The do seem to have evolved into a corporate profit entitiy as opposed to a honey coop. I guess that's sto be expected. I hope the members are reaping the profits.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I heard that the pool A or 1 got $1.05 for their honey. That seems to be above current market prices so the members are areaping some benefits.

Jean-Marc


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

From the prices on Sue Bee's web site ($2.52 per pound for 5 pound containers) it's clear who they're targeting with their marketing efforts. I'd give my honey away as gifts before I sold it for that! What I lost in money I'd make up for in good will! That is of course if I *had* any honey to sell, which I don't! Even Sue Bee's 1# jars are a good $1+ less than I'd want to sell mine for. It would also be interesting to compare their web prices with what the retail price is in stores.

Hehe.. it's easy to be critical and principled when you're not sitting on 20 tons of honey you gotta unload and bills to pay..

I would think that smaller regional co-ops would work better- even as few as 2-3 large operations could pool their resources, share their expenses, and reap the rewards of a retail operation. The bigger the operation, the more money goes into management and operations and less (ultimately) into the beekeeper's pockets. It's a trade off. It would be fun to run some numbers and see what could be done... maybe this is a topic for another thread.

George-


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

I wanted to revisit the topic disucussed here as it relates to the AHB discussion herein. I came accross this excerpt from what appears to be either an industry or state report out of Florida (Dec. 2005 Bee-L) It seems to settle the controversy.

AHB Florida update: (Africanized honey bees as opposed to beetles
"It is rampant, it is in the migratory operations (estimates from the beekeepers was 10% this past year). 

We've managed to finally jump LA. and spread into an area that has the potential to move into other eastern states as beekeepers from Fl. move north for cucurbits, apples, cranberries and blueberries. Although in the posters opinion is it was not migratory beekeepers (of which I'm one) I find it hard to believe 10% of Floridas commercial operations were infected from swarms off ships in the past year.

[ December 05, 2005, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

Joel, I'm not a pollinator nor a long time beekeeper, but I believe it is like everything else, migratory operations, might help spread the problem's faster but sooner or later the AHB and SHB's will be everywhere before long no matter what we try, we will all have to adjust and get ready to deal with it. preperation is better than supprise, just my 2 cents


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Yep. just the next storm on the horizon. A kind of big one though with lots of thunder, lighting and wind, people running around waving their arms and beekeepers dropping like flies.

[ December 05, 2005, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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