# Something went very wrong, very fast ...



## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

I'm cross posting this from my regional board to get a few more eyes on it ...

Good morning, everyone! 

For the past three weekends, my husband and i have been sugar dusting the Italian bees in our two top bar hives in the hopes of reducing the varroa mite count (the resulting count was below the economic threshold in both hives). Mites aside (and i realize those two words might be loaded), the hives were behaving fine and seemed to regroup quickly after each dusting. Today was going to be our fourth and final dusting, after which we'd do a count again before winter.

Literally overnight, both hives have taken some kind of bad turn. Between the litter of dead or dying bees beneath the entrances and the 1/2" or so of dead bees inside the hives, it looked like Beemageddon out there. Robbing was our first thought (we've been feeding intermittently during this dearth and didn't have our entrance reducers on - bonk!), but we're also worried about disease, pesticide damage, or heaven forbid, a bad response to the sugar dustings we've done. In reading about the possible causes, there are quite a few overlapping symptoms. So we've got a bit of a mystery on our hands and i just don't know how to characterize this sad event ...

I've gathered up some of the dead bees and will figure out how to send them away for testing. In looking at them, they do look small, but otherwise fine! Good wings, ext. There was no sign of dysentery (no poop stains anywhere!), so nosema seems unlikely. I just don't know ...

Worse case scenario, we'll have to start over next Spring and will consider this year to be a hands-on class in Beekeeping 101.

Thoughts?

PS: What does a hive look like after an aggressive robbing event? Today, there are bees kind of crawling around, unable to fly, but whether it's a disease response or a response to having fought to the death to defend stores i just don't have the experience to say.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

If stores are left and no visible fighting robbing is less likely, though they do give up eventually. Are capped stores being opened ?
Wax pieces on bottom? Stores missing?
Tongues out?
Look at the cells closely, any new syrup colors on top?


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Thank you for responding, Saltybee! We haven't seen the wax detritus we saw on several on-line "robbing" photographs, and at this point, with the "event" so fresh, we're kind of hesitant to open up the hives to get a closer look at what might have happened in there. We're going by what we've seen through the observation windows, and of course what was on the ground (which is so upsetting the first time you see that kind of carnage first hand).

But i'll have an answer to all of your questions soon. We'll go in within the next few days, or certainly over the long weekend, to see what's what.

Meanwhile, hubby checked out some of the dead (or dying) bees under our 40x microscope, and saw evidence of tracheal mites (again, comparing against what we've seen in "textbook" examples). But whether or not tracheal mites could cause such a sudden and seemingly massive bee death isn't clear to us. We do have a fair number of crawling bees, but we haven't seen the K wing that is described as being indicative of a serious infestation.

I hope there's hope for these colonies. We're not giving up! I'm crossing everything i can anatomically cross that our bees will be resilient enough to overcome.

PS: No tongues out. Tongues were fine.


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## wdale (Jun 27, 2014)

estreya
Contact me at [email protected] and I may be able to help you out. I live up the coast from you 
Dale


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Hi, Wdale! We're in the Washington State variety of Vancouver, but thanks for the offer!


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

i would open the hive and inspect. As for robbing the combs will be chewed and torn, its obvious.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

If it is not robbing, you have to consider pesticide as a possibility. Feeding a weak syrup might thin it out till it breaks down. I would not wait to open either.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Sounds like mild pesticide poisening. Severe, and they would all be dead. And I can't think of anything sudden-er.
Walt


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Dang. It's so hard to wrap my brain around the notion of pesticide poisoning. Someone would have had to spray the exact spot at the exact moment when most of the girls were foraging, and that seems fairly unlikely, no? I've been trying to think of a scenario where that would make sense. There are a lot of backyard orchards around here and fruit on the trees is ripening, but first off, who would spray fruit they're about to eat, and second, the bees would have had no reason to be on those trees. There's a wildlife refuge within the foraging radius, and i thought maybe they spray for mosquitoes - but wouldn't they have done that earlier in the season? There's a nursery down the road, but why would they spray for pests (and i've seen many a honeybee there in my day anyway). And if a neighbor sprayed for house pests, why would so many of our bees have encountered that fairly small, isolated event? Same with all the veggie gardens around here. Who would spray something they're about to eat?

Gah! I woke up all upset about this. I guess it is what it is, and we'll just have to wait it out. I'm gonna call that refuge tomorrow, though, and see if they mosquito sprayed.

If it was pesticide poisoning, won't all the combs be forever tainted? How does a hive recover from this?

Thanks very much for your responses and thoughts, everyone.

PS: In thinking about the many homes surrounding our property, we've had lots of yellow jackets around, and they seem a likely target for people to spray. But again, i can't figure out why so many honey bees would be in the path of a homeowners spray. There's berry farms around, but they've long since bloomed so the bees would have no reason to be in them, no?

PPS: There are hay fields around here too, but it feels like those folks, if they do spray, would be using herbicides, not pesticides. I just don't know ...


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

If only a percentage of the bees go to the sprayed place and bring the pesticide back, they can zap the whole hive. Mel Disselkoen says the the pesticide residues concentrate in tree sap, which bees use to make propolis.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Long term low level exposure is more likely to contaminate wax than a bee kill level. Your bees are not making wax today. Nectar and to a lesser extent pollen are the likely carriers. In a dearth pollen is a low possibility. It is only what was brought in in the last few days that is a possible carrier for a sudden hit.
The most likely event, is your bees robbing out a hive that someone killed in a wall or tree and left. How much remains to be robbed and by whom is the big unknown. Removing the dead bees and washing out the liquid nectar from your combs removes some, feeding dilutes it. If the hive survives your queen remains at risk for a longer time, I lost queens for 6 weeks after the first hit. Sorry to say it, but you need to be aware of the possibility.
I am slowly reusing the combs after the ants cleaned them up without any visible impact on the ants. That is your call but I am more worried of a repeat spray than the past hit. The nucs I have are at my brother's, not my house. I will bring some back next year and see how it goes.

The other possibility is a blanket spray of an irrigated lawn for something like ants when something such as clover was in bloom. Bad luck, brought on by a strange modern desire to live in nature but not be bothered by it.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?302746-mosquito-fogger-killing-honey-bees


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

The colonies may have collapsed due to the mite/virus load they were carrying.
I presume you were worried about mites if you were sugar dusting and sugar dusting is a very ineffective way to control mites as 80% of them are under cappings at any given time.
A big colony with a high mite/virus load can collapse really quickly.


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## gjt (Jul 24, 2014)

In my experience, sugar dusting combined with drone frames is an excellent v.mite control solution.
I have never heard such death as described from simple sugar dusting.

I guess I can conjecture that the dusting combined with the tracheal mites choked the bees to death by clogging the spiracles. Problem with this is the sugar does not normally do such thing. Add a possible secretion (which I never heard of) by the t.mites from the spiracles, and suddenly the dusting sugar can clog. All conjectures.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Wonderful comments, everyone, thank you so much!

Gjt, i do harbor this horrible feeling that the dustings may have done these bees in. Granted, correlation is not causation, but jeepers, it sure is quite the coincidence. One treatment might have been fine, but maybe three in a row just changed something really significant about the way they function, and your conjecture sounds very logical to me. I'm not sure what would bother me most - the thought that there are pesticides zig-zagging around my bees like so much combat shrapnel, or the notion that i may be responsible, guilty of involuntary hymenoptericide.

Time for me to stop blathering. I need to wait it out, i suppose, and i'm eager to get a closer look inside the hives. We'll do that at the first opportunity. Meanwhile, even if the sugar dustings aren't responsible, i'm not sure if we'll ever do it again.


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## Charlie King (Apr 27, 2014)

I'm no expert but sounds much more like man-made chemicals.. besides I think people would have reported back about similar problems after sugar dusting by now. It has been used a great deal.

Your nursery would be my first suspect. Remember fungicides and herbicides are just as lethal to bees and a fungal spray around this time of year would not be uncommon. Nurseries are quite often full of all sorts of pests and diseases and chemicals to treat them due to stressed plants from lots of different locations in close proximity (not necessarily their fault so don't be too rough on them!)

Unlucky though..hope they bounce back fast


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## mdax (Apr 29, 2013)

Can you post pictures of what the bars containing honey, closest to the entrance look like?
What is the ratio of dead vs. living bees?
You dusted with sugar, what type and process did you use?

If you'all are experienced and skilled enough to dissect bees and identify tracheal mites I'd suspect poisoning rather than a mistake.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Examine dead bees and look for bees with tongue sticking out which usually signifies poisoning as Charlie King has pointed out. If robbing, comb will be chewed dead bees in front of hive entrance. By the way Charlie King did a tbh video on robbing. A must see, best video ever of robbing behavior inside a hive. If you own a tbh most educational video of robbing. Once you have seen this video you will with out a doubt be able to recognize robbing through an observation window.


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## ginkgo (Apr 26, 2013)

estreya, you recently posted a thread about your bees bearding very heavily in the extreme heat. Might the sugar dusting have disrupted their ability to fan and ventilate the hive? Just speculating…


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Thank you, Charlie King. I know i'm not supposed to be emotionally attached, but i am, and i'm heartbroken.

Mdax, we're totally new to beekeeping, but hubby is very clever! As for the ratio of dead vs. living, Mdax, it's shifted dramatically. The hives were so populated, the observation windows were covered in bees. You had to peak through a gap to view the combs. The ends of the hives were full of festooning bees. Now, we can see clear through to the other side of the hive, we can see the floor (and the layer of dead bees there), and we can see between the combs. The end combs are bare. But none of the combs look shredded up, from what we can see! But with the population this low, yellow jackets are getting in. It's just horrible. I could cry.

About the sugar dusting, we have solid bottom boards in our hives. So the process was quite intense, quite hard on the bees. One at a time, we took each bar out of the main hive, dusted it with a mason jar/cheesecloth duster on both sides, and temporarily placed the comb in a little nuke. We did this until the nuke was almost full (six combs). Then, after letting them sit there for a bit, we returned the dusted combs to the main hive. Rise, lather repeat. We were careful to use a piece of cardboard over the gap in the main hive during this process. At first, we experimented with slipping a sticky board and screen under the hive as well so any mites that fell after the combs were returned would be captured, but on week two, there were no mites on that board so we just took them out (the bees were chewing them up around the edges).

I'll try to get pictures when we go in.

Slow Drone, thanks for your input, and for pointing me to the video. I'll look for it. I did see one bee with the tongue fully extended, but i'll look more closely to see if there are others. Meanwhile, there are so many crawlers around the North hive that the grass is resonating with a frustrated buzz. That hive isn't even defending the entrance the way it should be now (and the entrance is reduced!). It's painful to hear.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Ginkgo, good memory! It's a great point, and one we've thought about. That was a one day heat spike, and the hive looked normal the following morning, and behaved normally in the days since. So if it was a heat event, it seems like the casualties would have been concurrent with the heat spike. But this is a guess on my part.

Thanks for your respose!


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## gjt (Jul 24, 2014)

estreya said:


> I know i'm not supposed to be emotionally attached, but i am, and i'm heartbroken.


Why are you not supposed to be?


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Well, every once in a while, i've seen that refrain because it supposedly leads to poor husbandry decisions (pinching the queen of an aggressive hive being the most obvious example). But my husband and i love our girls. We just do! Maybe it would be different if we were something other than backyard hobbyists with two colonies to fuss over (though i doubt it).

PS: I hope hope hope we end up going into the winter with our two colonies. I was braced for the possibility of one or both of them not overwintering because i've read so many anecdotes to that effect. But loosing them now would be a shock to the system.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

estreya what you are describing is classic poisoning. I do not think the sugar dusting had anything to do with it. Do you live in an urban area with neighbors? This would not be the first time I have heard of an unhappy neighbor spraying hives with a hornet/wasp spray. From what I have experienced using them on hornets and wasps the only fatalities are to the ones actually hit. I have had nests come back to life as the capped brood emerges. I had a yellow jacket nest a couple of years ago that I finally had to dig up and spray because I could not make contact with the entire nest, and I sprayed it several times very heavily. I sold three nucs to 2 brothers this summer that had the hives spread out on an acreage. One hive was poisoned and the other two were fine.
Dave


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Hi, Dave Burrup ... Many of the homes around here, ours included, are on around five acres. Several people have horses, goats, cows; one guy keeps pigs, and at least one neighbor has roosters, even though i think technically, boy chickens are illegal. If no one has wrung the necks of those roosters, i doubt anyone would take issue with my bees (though i could be wrong).

By the way, i like the sound of the roosters. It makes me feel very agrarian.

PS: Your words about the hives possibly bouncing back are very encouraging. Here's hoping!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Someone would have had to spray the exact spot at the exact moment when most of the girls were foraging, and that seems fairly unlikely, no?

Not at all unlikely. All that has to happen is a widespread spraying of an area with any kind of blooms. It happens all the time Mosquito fogging is often the cause...

Powdered sugar will not kill adult bees. It might kill some young brood if it dried them out too much but that is not what you are seeing.


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## SpringGreen (Jun 26, 2014)

Could be that someone sprayed a bee nest nearby, like in a house or barn, and some of your bees carried poison home. We still also have people spraying trees here...the bugs have sure done on a number on my fruit trees this year...and treating gardens with a pesticide is not uncommon, even in a backyard garden. I ended up resorting to a fairly strong pesticide one year to save my squash crop. I live in a semi-rural area, and in worry more about homeowners using pesticides than I do my nearby farmers (corn, soybeans and hay, along with dairy cattle).

Does your county fog for mosquitoes?

I'm also starting to get ads in the mail for stink bug reduction services. Maybe somebody jumped the gun and is starting to spray for those....oh, wait...you probably don't have those, as the Asian stink bugs tend to be east coast. 

I'm so sorry your bees have been hit so hard by something.

I had one of my nucs robbed out. When I opened it, there were dead bees everywhere plus shreds of wax all over. Activity at the door was very high as well. When I popped the top, bees rose in a cloud, leaving very few of the inhabitants. The queen was gone, but I stuck a couple frames from a strong hive in that nuc box, and they raised a queen and looked really good yesterday.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Thank you for your thoughts, SpringGreen, and congratulations on the rebound of your nuc! That must be such a wonderful feeling ...

While both of our hives were strong, the North hive was bursting at the seams with bees, and oddly, that's the hive that's been hit the hardest! Maybe it's the hive that had the most foragers who got in harms way ...

In any case, the recovery of your bees is very encouraging. I hope to have a similar story to tell someday soon ...


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Thanks for your response, Michael. That now makes perfect sense to me. If, for example, someone was spraying a tree that happened to be situated on a field of dandelions ...

Yikes!

Are you thinking our hives most likely suffered a poisoning event? In the thread that was linked here earlier, you mentioned you've lost quite a few bees to mosquito fogging. Did those hives recover, and if so, did you do anything special to help them recover?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Did those hives recover

Yes, but it was a huge setback when they were fogging once a week or so.

> and if so, did you do anything special to help them recover? 

Besides calling the EPA and complain that they were fogging in the daytime, no. And that only helped a for a short time. It is very frustrating...


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Any resemblance to: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?302369-Sick-quot-Black-quot-Bees


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Good morning, Saltybee, and thanks for keeping our hives in your thoughts. The dead and dying bees look like our ordinary bees, which was pretty puzzling at first. I remember thinking that if robbing was the issue, why would all the bees look alike unless the North hive is robbing the South and vice versa (or someone else is keeping Italian bees nearby). So the paralysis isn't ringing true since i'm not seeing black bees in great quantity on the inside or the outside of the hives.

The black striped bees that are trying to enter the now weakened hives look like the other varieties of foragers one would see in any garden space (i've been seeing them around here all season, in fact). It just seems that all nectar gatherers from far and wide are seizing the opportunity to penetrate our hives' weakened defenses. Since one or two interlopers are getting in (the South hive, in particular, is working hard to defend), i reduced the entrances even more early this morning to pretty much a two bee width. We're flirting with 90 degrees today, though, so i'm not sure if this was an especially good idea. At least the hives will be in shade from about 3:00 on ...

Due to conflicting demands, i'm not sure we'll be able to get into the hives until the weekend. But i'll post photographs then. For the moment, things are pretty much looking the same - no better, no worse. I remain guardedly optimistic that at least the South hive will survive this ugly episode.

PS: The computer just burped! I hope this only posts the one time.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Did any of the dead bees out front have pollen loads on their legs. This to me is a sure sign of poisoning. Foragers just hardly making it back to the hive. If you are concerned about reducing the entrance and ventilation get some hardware cloth and make a simple robber screen.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Zhiv9 - what a great tip on something to look for! No. None of the dead or dying bees had anything in their pollen baskets. But when i go down there again, i'll check with that in mind (i'm 90% sure though).


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Hello, everyone!

Just a quick update on what was found inside our hives today. We cleaned out the dead bees from the bottom of the hives, and i clearly made a mistake in my initial assessment - the tongues WERE fully extended in many of the dead bees. It's a difficult thing to see (emotionally speaking) ...

The dead bees had a familiar unpleasant smell. Not foul, necessarily. Just unpleasant like something you might smell in a pet shop or maybe the fertilizer aisle at Home Depot.

If significant robbing took place, you would never know it from the inside of the hives. Stores looked fine - cappings were smooth. If any of the combs were ever shredded by robbers (i'm guessing they were not), it was fixed within the past week.

There were a few small, gray worms under the layer of dead bees in one of the hives (i'll have to look this up).

Varroa is still observable on the odd bee, as is deformed wing virus in one of the two hives. Not much, but both can be found on close examination.

Queens are alive in both hives, and combs are the usual combination of capped stores, pollen, larvae and covered worker brood. If not for the layer of dead bees and the reduced population (which is looking much more vigorous than it did a few days ago), i might not have known anything unusual happened.

Additional thoughts and suggestions are always appreciated! Meanwhile, i hope everyone is enjoying a happy and healthy holiday weekend.

Cheers, everyone!


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

I read somewhere that store's "Powdered sugar" contains starch and bad for bees. For dusting, normal sugar should be used - made powder out of it and use it. 
In my short beekeeping hobby, I learned that any potential robbing must be addressed immediately: reduce entrance to 1 bee and install robbing screen ASAP. I wish your bees quick recover!


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## Just Krispy (Aug 1, 2013)

Powdered sugar does contain corn starch. Powdered sugar can be easily made in a blender.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

estreya,

that description suggests poisoning, especially given the wide variety of the horticultural pursuits taking place within flight range of your hives. your bees will most likely recover.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Cerezha and Just Krispy, thank you for your replies. At this point, i'm almost certain the "event" had nothing whatsoever to do with the sugar dustings, but if we ever do dust again, we may well try the blender approach. 

Squarepeg, thank you so much for your comment! I'm pretty sure it was a poisoning event as well, even more so now that it's a week later, the death has stopped, there are no more crawlers, and the overall "buzz" of the hives seems much more vigorous and productive. I, too, hope the hives rebound enough to get through the winter, though i do worry that some of the nectar (or pollen) currently stored might still be contaminated. We shall see ...

Thanks again everyone, and have a wonderful holiday!


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## Patricia (May 3, 2014)

OH Estraya! You love your bees. I'm so sorry this happened. Keep us updated. I've been fighting wax moth and robbers! This is War!


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

estraya, Logic hints at nectar if only because fewer bees handle the pollen and you would be seeing brood death unless it was a short lived pesticide.
Nectar is used immediately and only the surplus is stored. That matches your description of a fast hitting episode. A shake of a frame gets the loose most recent nectar out without losing the stored honey (pre-hit). Harder with TBH frames but a light spray of water would remove much of the surface nectar. Syrup is a viable replacement in your situation, even for those who prefer all natural.
Be encouraged if your's are looking better, mine took at least 3 weeks to level off. You do need to keep a close watch for a failing queen, she is the biggest calorie burner in the hive and is the one most at risk. Strongly encourage you to keep feeding, dilute any residue that may remain and feeding will keep the queen laying longer. Test her now, not late winter.
Enjoyed your progress.


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## SpringGreen (Jun 26, 2014)

I'm so glad some of them survived! 

I'd feed too...anything to help the bees not have to expend energy looking for food but spending their time rebuilding the colony, especially with winter staring us in the face.

What a horrible thing to have happened


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

Patricia, thank you so much for your post, and you're so right! We do love our bees, and this episode underscores that all too often, we can't escape life's perils. Meanwhile, in your bee yard, blasted robbers! Did they do a lot of damage? Will you let us all know how it goes? 

Saltybee, thank you so much for your continued encouragement and guidance. We did put syrup in the back of the hives, and oddly, they're not taking all that much of it. I should have sprayed the combs with water when we were in there yesterday! Drat. But things are looking good enough that i remain guardedly optimistic at this point, with active defense of the reduced openings and fat baskets of orange pollen going in. You've been very kind. Your bees are lucky to have you overseeing their care.


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## estreya (Apr 20, 2014)

SpringGreen, thank you for your thoughts, and i admit, it was wrenching. I have pictures of all the little tongues sticking out (it almost looks like bee tongues are split - i'll have to look that up!), but i can't bring myself to post them because it's just so horrible. And sadly, i gather i'm not unique, and this is not all that uncommon of an occurrence. But we soldier on, don't we!  Thanks again ...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

For dusting it makes no difference if you dust them with powdered sugar, corn starch or flour. They are hauling it out for trash anyway.


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