# Thicker hives in the winter



## brandongunn2003 (Jul 7, 2012)

I only have 4 hives. I am making my hive parts out of 1" rough cut redwood now. I have access to plenty of wood and could switch my hives into 2" thick deeps in the winter. With proper ventilation do you think this would help the bees survive winter.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

well, wood isnt the best insulator. probably would not make any difference other than hard on your back. You will have to lift the boxes from time to time.

cheers


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## sweetas (Apr 16, 2012)

If you are into making things, why not make an outer hive. that slips over the standard hive and leave an air space between the inner and outer boxes. Less weight to lift in the future. Leave a gap for the entrance. This would save shifting the frames. The only problem I see is that other things might find a home in the space. I used 75mm coolroom material for lids and I live in a mild climate.

Geoff


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

As mentioned above wood is not the best of insulators. more is better though. I woudl be inclined along the lines of an outer cover made from thin wood both inside and out with foam insulation in between. I am thinking 1/4 to 1/8 inch ply or veneer shell over a 2 inch foam board. with the same wood shell covering the inner surface with a thin wood cap and seal.

as for adding and removing it. I am wondering why. Insulation may very well be just as beneficial in the summer as the winter. You might play around with simply making some thicker or better insulated boxes for permanent use. Bees will select locations far less insulated than a standard Langstroth hive. It would be interested to know how long they stay there.

I have observed this past year that my bees are reluctant to draw comb at the southern side of their frames. I consider this a result of that being the warmer side of the hive. In summer when they are working to cool the hive they will choose a location if available that has a closer to suitable temperature. I have both a langstroth and a TBH that I have observed this behavior in. In fact in the case of the TBH the bees have never built comb up to the warm side of the hive yet.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

An extra quarter inch of redwood is hardly a measurable weight. Thicker woodenware will also last longer because it is more resistant to temperature and humidity changes. Corner joints are more stable being a third thicker. I make cypress and cedar one inch ware. There is less than a pound difference on the postal scale between 3/4 pine, 1 cypress, and 1 cedar supers.
Bro. Adam of Buckfast Abbey has observations of American beekeeping
"Indeed, cold seems to have a decided beneficial effect on bees. The normal brood-rearing urge, manifested by the other colonies not thus protected, as well as the upsurge of energy and industry, was completely lacking. The results secured here in Devon as well as in Wiltshire palpably demonstrated that undue protection has a positive harmful effect and that cold – even severe cold – exerts a beneficial influence on the well-being of a colony. Winter losses are not the direct result of exposure to low temperature, but are generally due to a lack of timely cleansing flights, unsatisfactory stores, queenlessness, disease, etc."


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>n extra quarter inch of redwood is hardly a measurable weight

lift 5000 of them and tell me that

but if its only a few it makes no difference


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

it doesn't get that cold in Mendocino 

Jim


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

two inch pink board from home depot. light, R-10, and removable. no toasty bees in the summer.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

With the same moisture content and deep supers one inch Redwood would weigh 1987, 3/4 pine would weigh 2446
You can do the math at http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/calculators/calc.pl


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

AramF said:


> no toasty bees in the summer.


Realize that insulation does not "keep in heat". It's function is to slow down the equalization in temperature between to areas of different temperature. If the inside of the hive is warmer than the outside, then yes, it keeps in the heat. But if the outside is warmer than the inside, it's then keeping out the heat. If you kept insulation on your hives in the summer, the temperature in the hive would be more stable and easier for the bees to regulate. In fact in this month's ABJ or BC there was short article on making permanently insulated boxes.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

Libhart, you are absolutely right. My reference came from summer bearding situations where making the hive uninsulated and opening top entrace cures bearding in minutes. But yes, you are absolutely correct. That's why you often see afghany people wearing warm robes in summer heat. It is better than being exposed to hot air.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

This winter I'm experimenting with building a couple horizontal frame hives. It will cost significantly more to build, but I am going to try building them with 1" rigid foam insulation between two pieces of 3/4 inch pine. Hopefully I'll be able to post picks in January or February. Just planning ahead, I'm relatively young, already running mostly mediums and still hate lifting them for inspections. Plus it disrupts the bees a lot.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I ran the calculator and came up with roughly the same numbers. probably not using the same moisture content. I also realized that number is per 1000 pieces. so the Weights per box should be

1 inch redwood. 1.987 Lbs per box 3/4 pine 2.446 Lbs per box. 

I was thinking that the original langstroth hive was designed and built using True dimensional lumber (True two) as I have been taught to call it. that means 1 inch lumber is actually 1 inch thick. The design of the hive has been changed when the manufacture of lumber went to nominal dimensions. (1 inch lumber is actually 3/4 inches thick).

Actually when I think of insulating hives I am thinking more of keeping summer heat out than winter heat in. 

With that I still think winter insulation woudl help. the hive sets in the sun all day. The entire contents of the will absorb heat. the honey. pollen cluster, wax frames propalis etc. for the most part you have a fairly solid block of material absorbing heat. When the sun sets that heat will remain in the hive longer with insulation. How long would you expect your house to stay warm if the heater did not come on? A house is most likely far better insulated than a hive will ever be. But it would remain warmer for at least a small amount of time.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

brandongunn2003 said:


> Proper ventilation do you think this would help the bees survive winter.


Using fat lumber for these boxes means that for other than frames, commercial parts such as covers, tops & bottom boards may not be interchangable. This can be an issue with more than a few hives.

Here in Maine, I've seen no need for fat wood or foam insulation. You guys must live in cold areas.

Wayne


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## JRH (Dec 30, 2010)

> ...if the outside is warmer than the inside, it's then keeping out the heat. If you kept insulation on your hives in the summer, the temperature in the hive would be more stable and easier for the bees to regulate. In fact in this month's ABJ or BC there was short article on making permanently insulated boxes.


If you knew that the bees are looking for a constant 95 degrees in the broodnest, and you've got bearding (which is the bees trying to keep the hive the cooler than it is) why on earth would you make it harder for them with insulation? That would make the temperature "more stable" at the wrong temperature and LESS easy for the bees to get the hive to the right temperature.

Try this! Get an indoor/outdoor thermometer and find out for yourself what's happening inside your hives. You would never have the same idea about winter insulation or bearding if you knew what was really going on.

There are plenty of nutty articles in both of the bee journals.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

<If you knew that the bees are looking for a constant 95 degrees in the broodnest, and you've got bearding (which is the bees trying to keep the hive the cooler than it is) why on earth would you make it harder for them with insulation? That would make the temperature "more stable" at the wrong temperature and LESS easy for the bees to get the hive to the right temperature.>


I can't help but comment. An insulated house is easier to keep COOL also. Insulation slows heat gain and loss through the walls, making it easier to keep cool or warm, that's why coolers have insulation. In the summer the insulation reduces the heat gain from the sun, making the hive cooler, that also means that there is less heat gain from the sun in the winter as well.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

My money is on Mr. C The bees have evaporative cooling air conditioning. They haul in water and evaporate it by fanning to cool the brood. It does raise the humidity level so they have to fan it out as well. Too many bees in the hive interfere with air circulation so they hike out.

I think the analogy with insulation aiding in house air conditioning could well apply to bee hives and certainly when solar gain is the main enemy.


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

Thanks guys....I had started to write a big long rebuttal and then just hit cancel.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

The R-value of wood is only about 1.5/inch so you would not gain much.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

JRH, A stable temperature results it being easier for the bees to keep the hive at 95. The bees will have to get the hive to 95 degrees regardless of insulation or no insulation. the insulation results in taking less heat or cooling to keep it that way. So although I follow your thinking I think you are wrong. it would in fact between insulation and the efforts of the bees be a more stable 95 degrees. This means the hive would be slower to over heat on a sunny hot day and slower to gt cold on a cool night. The bees still have to make up the difference. there is just less difference to make.


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## hemichuck (Oct 27, 2009)

I was talking to the (former)state apiarist at a bee school a couple of years ago about wintering hives and he said they had done a study with temperature probes in a hive every couple of inches and monitoring the whole setup with a computor. What they found was the inside of a typical beehive the temperature is the same as the temperature outside. The only place heated is the cluster. So whether you insulate or not wont really have any effect on the bees.What you want to avoid is moisture from having the hive closed up too tight and cold wind blowing through the hives(use a windbreak) I have never spent the winter in Mendicino but I cant imagine that it gets any colder than Kentucky. I dont even block off my screened bottoms in winter most of the time.I figure its better to have some airflow in case the entrances get covered over with snow and I cant get out to clear them. I have 30+ hives most winters and I'm not going to waste my time wrapping them up, Maybe if I was in Minnesota or someplace.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Was the hive insulated or not and how much insulation and were all six exteriors insulated? How much was entrance reduced? 

The temperature inside a well insulated hive with very reduced ventilation is higher than outside. The temp does vary from bottom to top and towards exterior. Have a thermometer with a long probe and placed the sensor above my inner cover towards the center. My recollection was some 10 C warmer. Using 2 inch syrofoam insulation.

Place a 60W trouble lamp in the kitchen oven. This is not a well insulated container(maybe 1 inch insulation) and cord doesn't result in a great door seal but ours go to 30C with a room ambient 20C.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

There is enough evidence to suggest that bees can regulate temperature pretty well, even in the coldest environmnets. The law of conservation of energy cannot be turned off in the colder hive. If insulation is absent, they need to burn more fuel to keep themselves warm. Sugar is expensive enough, not to mention honey, why burn more than you have too. Cheaper to insulate and keep at 5 degrees celcius.


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## JRH (Dec 30, 2010)

> <If you knew that the bees are looking for a constant 95 degrees in the broodnest, and you've got bearding (which is the bees trying to keep the hive the cooler than it is) why on earth would you make it harder for them with insulation? That would make the temperature "more stable" at the wrong temperature and LESS easy for the bees to get the hive to the right temperature.>





> I can't help but comment. An insulated house is easier to keep COOL also. Insulation slows heat gain and loss through the walls, making it easier to keep cool or warm, that's why coolers have insulation. In the summer the insulation reduces the heat gain from the sun, making the hive cooler, that also means that there is less heat gain from the sun in the winter as well.


This analogy doesn't work because the house you are trying to cool doesn't have a heat source inside cranking out heat. (That would be the bees). If you did have a heat source inside a house you wanted to cool down, you would not only open up the windows and doors, you wouldn't be so glad you had great insulation. As I said previously, get a thermometer. An insulated hive in the summer can easily reach inside temperatures over 110. A plain wooden one next to it would read 10 or fifteen degrees less.

Theory is always interesting. Get a thermometer and see if you're right.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Daniel:

Put shade boards on your hives in the summer. You get "plenty of sunshine" down that way! A sheet of white painted plywood on spacers on top of the hive, sized to give shade to the south side of the hive during the hottest part of the day and held down with weights so it doesn't blow off, will cool down that south side and let the bees use it. I suspect it is indeed too hot and the wax won't hold it's shape nor can the bees keep it cool enough to use for brood. The shade board will fix that.

Peter


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## hemichuck (Oct 27, 2009)

JRH said:


> This analogy doesn't work because the house you are trying to cool doesn't have a heat source inside cranking out heat. (That would be the bees). If you did have a heat source inside a house you wanted to cool down, you would not only open up the windows and doors, you wouldn't be so glad you had great insulation. As I said previously, get a thermometer. An insulated hive in the summer can easily reach inside temperatures over 110. A plain wooden one next to it would read 10 or fifteen degrees less.
> 
> Theory is always interesting. Get a thermometer and see if you're right.


The study they did would lead me to believe that this analogy might be what he was talking about, Picture a man in a thermal suit (bees in cluster)standing in an unheated house(un-insulated hive). The man can regulate his temperature by zipping or unzipping his suit(bees can regulate the temps in the cluster by tightening up or loosening up the cluster) But no matter how much heat the man puts off in the suit it will have little effect on the house temperature(just like the heat from the cluster will have little overall effect on the air temps in the hive.Now, we as beekeepers can help to keep the house temps as even as possible by not leaving the windows and doors open (wrapping or insulating the hives and blocking the screened bottoms for drafts) but that would also be of negligable impact because they are only trying to heat the cluster,not the whole hive.
Back to the original post, I looked up the average low temps in Mendicino where the post originated and the average lows are in the 40's, hardly cold enough to be wrapping hives. Heck, my bees are out flying every morning when its in the 40's here(right now)


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

It is ridiculous to try to make a one size fits all rule for beehives when you consider the huge difference in temperature extremes and average humidity conditions that span their locations. Heat loss may be the enemy or it may be heat gain. Humidity control is a different issue but still a key part of what the bees must have. It may be helped OR hindered by things you do for temperature control. Different inputs have to be considered, and especially their magnitude relative to bees inherent heat producing, cooling and humidifying capabilities.

Air exchange rate gets tricky depending on its moisture content; especially when the air conditioning unit is an evaporative one. If the main route of desired heat loss is through the shell then insulation would be a hindrance; also if outside air temperature is overwhelming bees evaporative cooling, then bringing in more of it and removing insulation value from the shell is counter productive. Common sense sometimes gets a failing grade at solving such problems especially when the input levels are rather feeble.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

JRH said:


> This analogy doesn't work because the house you are trying to cool doesn't have a heat source inside cranking out heat. (That would be the bees). If you did have a heat source inside a house you wanted to cool down, you would not only open up the windows and doors, you wouldn't be so glad you had great insulation. As I said previously, get a thermometer. An insulated hive in the summer can easily reach inside temperatures over 110. A plain wooden one next to it would read 10 or fifteen degrees less.
> 
> Theory is always interesting. Get a thermometer and see if you're right.


The analogy is over simplistic, I'll admit that, but so is yours. Insulating a hive does not mean eliminating ventilation needed for the evaporative cooling to work. I still run a ventilated inner cover box on top of the hive, this allows excess heat to ascend and be pulled out of the hive. The insulation reduces thermal gain from outside on a hot day, making the overall job easier. No I haven't used a temperature probe, but I have compared the number of bees engaged in fanning and bearding. If it is too hot I open the screen bottoms and tops. I end up with far fewer bees engaged in cooling activities. If the hive was a sealed box you'd be correct and insulation would be a bad thing in summer, but most of the heat of the hive is lost through evaporation/ventilation, not the walls of the hive, my insulation doesn't affect how well the hive is ventilated. In winter I close up the hive at the bottom most of the way to reduce draft from blowing across the bees, but I leave top ventilation with insulation above it to vent warm moist air coming off the cluster. The insulation on top helps prevent the air from condensing and dripping on the cluster.

If you want to look at the whole picture in summer it can be simplified to heat sources versus heat sinks. When it is above 95degrees in the direct sun (where I keep my bees, because it helps with hive beetles and varroa to some extent), the walls of the hives are a heat source. The bees metabolism is a heat source as well, along with any hot air entering the hive. Cooling is, as far as I know, all evaporative and fanning is the mechanism for removing the heat in the form of water vapor. Insulation lowers the rate at which heat enters the hive through the walls, does not affect the amount of heat generated through metabolism or the amount dispersed via evaporative fanning.

Now admittedly if the temperature outside is below ideal cluster temperature the walls will act as a heat sink and eliminate excess heat. In this case cooling potential is lowered, however two points here. 1st the amount of heat lost through the walls is likely to be small compared to that of evaporation, and secondly it is my personal experience that with the way in which my hives are ventilated I never see any noticeable cooling activities until the temperature in the sun exceeds 95degrees (which tends to be mid to high 80s in the shade on a sunny day). This is, in my opinion, because the natural evaporation rate from curing honey etc, is likely sufficient to passively cool the hive without much assistance.


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

hemichuck said:


> The study they did would lead me to believe that this analogy might be what he was talking about, Picture a man in a thermal suit (bees in cluster)standing in an unheated house(un-insulated hive). The man can regulate his temperature by zipping or unzipping his suit(bees can regulate the temps in the cluster by tightening up or loosening up the cluster) But no matter how much heat the man puts off in the suit it will have little effect on the house temperature(just like the heat from the cluster will have little overall effect on the air temps in the hive.Now, we as beekeepers can help to keep the house temps as even as possible by not leaving the windows and doors open (wrapping or insulating the hives and blocking the screened bottoms for drafts) but that would also be of negligable impact because they are only trying to heat the cluster,not the whole hive.
> 
> Back to the original post, I looked up the average low temps in Mendicino where the post originated and the average lows are in the 40's, hardly cold enough to be wrapping hives. Heck, my bees are out flying every morning when its in the 40's here(right now)


Man and house analogy is an exaggeration of the size differences. An insulated nuc would be a man in a small closet, insulate the closet and he can warm it up. An average american home these days is 2100 square feet, even a large man is only going to take up less than 4 square feet, (If we go with cubic feet it will be even worse since most houses have ceiling well taller than the people that live in them). That's a 1:525 ratio. A large cluster of bees (basketball size) is about 450 cubic inches. If you are wintering in a double deep you have about 5250 cubic inches interior space. That's a 1:12 ratio. Our large man at best should be placed in a 7foot by 7foot room. Well insulated I'm betting he would have an effect on the temperature inside. Winter in a single deep and you're down to a 3.5ft by 3.5ft room. And people have tested insulated nucs, and they do stay warmer. Yes bees can survive without insulation, especially in warmer climates, that doesn't make it ideal. There are plenty of people that run polystyrene hives, as long as they have enough ventilation they do just fine. 
The best test imo would not be what temperature is it inside, but rather how many stores are consumed. I don't have enough bees, time, money, or technology to test it well myself.


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## hemichuck (Oct 27, 2009)

You guys keep talking about summer cooling but if i'm not mistaken, I believe that the title of the thread was "thicker hives in winter" which would leave me to believe he's talking about keeping his hives warm. As stated earlier with average lows in the 40's in Mendicino I wouldnt waste my time making thicker hives.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

libhart said:


> Thanks guys....I had started to write a big long rebuttal and then just hit cancel.


I do that all the time. 



hemichuck said:


> You guys keep talking about summer cooling....... As stated earlier with average lows in the 40's in Mendicino I wouldnt waste my time making thicker hives.


"Thread Starter" what do the other guys in your region do and have always done. Don't try to reinvent the wheel unless you are really bored and need something to do. Ask around and see if it is needed then make a decision. I would think that CA does not need any more then the box for cold and hot. Now wet and dry might be more of importance to you. But, Mendocino is not SF so might be drier there.


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