# We just got a swarm. Have some ?'s



## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

Allen said:


> Any suggestions?


Sounds like you have a good plan. The one thing I would add is some pollen patties. Since this is a small colony, they will need numbers. If you have it to spare, a frame of brood would be a huge boost.

Shane


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

they won't get to draw much if any comb, so hopefully you have some. capped brood would be perfect, a frame a week for 2-3 weeks.

edit: sorry read your post too fast. comb, i would say capped brood, and honey. probably a long shot but fun to try.


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## Allen (Oct 5, 2011)

I always read about how swarms seem to be focused on building up their new colony so thats why we are going to try.

Oh yeah, forgot about brood. I can spare some from the other 5 hives.
If I would have had my Nucs started last spring I could have used them as support.

Since the swarm is going to be given so much capped honey, what syrup ratio should I feed them?
If 1-1, wouldn't that stimulate drawing some comb? 
Those medium frames going in the deep boxes might get some comb drawn underneath it and hope they don't attach it to the bottom board.

My friend has been getting ready for a wedding and hasn't had much time to take check his hives.
I may go through them this weekend to try and figure out which one swarmed.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i'm a good bit south of you, and my bees haven't drawn any new comb for weeks. i think it has to be warm, and they would need perceive the need for more comb ahead of or during a strong flow. the bees are gearing up for winter now, and are adjusting their population and stores in anticipation having to survive a long cold spell with no forage. feeding might confuse them on that. plus, syrup is not as nutritious as honey, and i would think it would be better to be on the best diet possible right now. these next rounds of brood have to be very long-lived bees. when do you get your first frost up there?


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## Allen (Oct 5, 2011)

Not sure on first frost but I think it'll be November.
I have a Nuc that started in early August and they are still drawing comb.
We have lots of goldenrod still blooming so maybe they can bring some pollen in on their own.

Here is a blurry photo of the tiny cluster. It was getting dark when it was taken.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

yeah, it will be a fun challenge to build them up and get them through winter. if they make it, i would say they are some hearty bees. i caught a small one a month or so ago, and added resources from other hives, it's really strong now.

i let one go last week, i just didn't want to rob any more from my other hives.

i've gone through 8 out of 12 so far, and they all have lots of eggs and a very robust brood pattern, no evidence of swarming.

i'm wondering if these small swarms are issued as part of a supercedure.

any thoughts wcubed?


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## Allen (Oct 5, 2011)

Well, the deed is done and they are mad! 
Found the queen.
Moved the swarm into the other half of the 10 frame split box.
I stole a frame of brood and pollen from our strongest hive and had to go to the bottom super to get it.
Hope I didn't weaken them too much. I put a frame of empty comb in its place.
In the nuc I added an additional frame of drawn but empty comb and the rest of the frames are capped honey.

I switched bottom boards so both nucs have a small entrance in the front outside corners.
The bottom board that came with the split deep had entrances on either opposite sides and too much water gets in when it rains.
With the new bottom board the double nuc can be tilted forward a bit.

Not sure how I'm going to fix the water issue for next spring. Maybe put a small screened opening in the bottom near the front for water drainage


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Something to consider. Have your friend keep an eye on the colony that cast this swarm. If his new virgin queen does not get properly mated he may need that queen back at some point later this Fall. Of course, that depends upon how good of a friend he is....


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

That's a typical size for a superseded queen and her loyal supporters. Playing second fiddle, and relegated to her own small area of comb, she bails out.

The above comments do not put enough emphasis on fall protein needs. This little group either needs foragers to collect pollen or have their protein provided. Fall foraging in all colonies concentrates on pollen for the fattening-up process, needed by the young bees for wintering.

Walt


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks walt. i just finished fall inspections for all of the hives, and all of them looked like they have had a laying queen (or two) for weeks. nothing like with the reproduction swarms in the spring. i know that at least two of my strong hives kicked out a mini-swarm this fall, and there may have been others that i didn't see. looks like these bees think it's a good idea to requeen themselves in the fall.


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## Allen (Oct 5, 2011)

Well now I know what a hive looks like that has been robbed out.
While I was away yesterday all the honey given to this swarm was taken.
Even with a reduced entrance it still happened.

Not sure if I should feed syrup and a pollen patty at this point or just write them off.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

if it was so weak that it got robbed like that, my thought is that you would have to locate away from the stronger hives.

if it has a superceded queen as walt suggests, she may be failing for some reason.

walt's point about supplementing protein is part of what i was getting at about the nutritional aspects of feeding syrup. the other part is that some think the bees are more vunerable to disease with syrup feeding.

since i have enough strong hives, i would not want to take any resources away to help this one.

i might consider making it into an observation hive, or keeping it in a warm enough place so that i could feed it as needed.


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## Allen (Oct 5, 2011)

How far away should I relocate it?
I don't have any other Nuc boxes besides the double it is already in. 
Could try to make up a Nuc from the Coates plans and see what happens.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i would try to get it at least a mile or two away from any strong hives, including feral, hard to know for sure. i was lucky in relocating a hive like that the one time i tried it.

i keep five nucs last winter in 10 frame boxes, i used a dummy divider board to narrow the space down, and filled that space with crumpled newspaper for insulation and moisture absorbtion. all five made it really good.


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## Allen (Oct 5, 2011)

Should I stay with deeps
I have a couple of 10 frame mediums that could be used with a divider board?



Just called another friend who has a panel saw and nail gun.
We're going to make a Coates 2 story Nuc and I'm moving them to one of my new bee yards.
We will see what happens.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Whatever you choose to do, do not feed them honey! This time of year the smell of uncapped honey is an irresistible invitation to the neighborhood bees. Adding a frame of capped honey would be much preferable. If they need to be fed, sugar syrup, fed inside the hive/nuc offers the best chance to avoid a brawl.


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## Allen (Oct 5, 2011)

A small amount of honey was given the first night and was gone by morning.
Capped honey was given the next day.
All sugar syrup feeding was done with mason jars on top inside a deep super.

We have three 5 frame Nuc boxes made up with 1" boards and modified the Coates plans slightly to compensate.
It's nice when you have all the right equipment.



I set up cement blocks at the new location for the Nuc and what did I see in the fence row behind where they are going?
Honeybees working the flowers...

I closed off their bottom entrance with hardware cloth tonight and gave them 2 quarts of sugar syrup.

Tomorrow in the morning, how cold can it be and still not hurt the brood frame?
I'd like to move them as early as possible.

After the move, should I keep them closed in for a day or so while giving them sugar syrup?
Or should I just open them up with a branch across the entrance?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>After the move, should I keep them closed in for a day or so while giving them sugar syrup?
Or should I just open them up with a branch across the entrance?

i would want them to be able to take cleansing flights and bring in as much natural forage as possible while they still can.

>Tomorrow in the morning, how cold can it be and still not hurt the brood frame?

not sure what you are talking about.

btw, it would be better to try and let them fill that comb with natural forage. don't let them fill all of the comb, they need some for clustering when it gets colder. i would not use anything scented in the syrup, and i would add 1000mg crushed vitamin c to the syrup.


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## Allen (Oct 5, 2011)

I had given them a frame of brood.
How cold is too cold to go in and remove the brood from one box and place it in the new box?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

if you have enough bees in there, they should be able to keep that frame warm, but there may not be enough foragers and guard bees.

if the bees are flying good, it's plenty warm.

again, i would not attempt any of this at this time of year.

but on the brighter side, it's giving you a good learning experience, and if they make it under these trying circumstances, you might have some good bees there.

the biggest problems to me are:

not enough bees
not enough stores
not enough time
the queen might have been superceded due to age or poor performance.

i'll let some of the others chime in.

good luck.


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## Allen (Oct 5, 2011)

It is a good learning experience.
My friend is in his second year with these bees and started them from packages.
Not sure how old the queens are that come up from down south.
Thanks for your help.


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## Allen (Oct 5, 2011)

Moved them this morning and gave them some sugar syrup.
The bottom entrance was reduced down to 1/2 x 3/4"
There was a thick layer of wax cappings on the floor of the hive along with some dead bees.
Couldn't find the queen.

I've written these bees off as a learning experience.

Couldn't get all bees out of the remaining supers before moving them.
When I returned, I smoked the remaining bees out of the supers and taped the entrances shut.



Bungees are to keep the supers from getting blown over.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

those nuc boxes will come in handy next year if you want to make a split.

have you checked out michael bush's website yet?

it's one of my favorites. he has also published a book.

i tried what is described on that site as a cut down split. check it out if you get a chance.


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