# Can somebody PLEASE tell me what has happened?!!



## RussianBee (May 5, 2011)

Here's my story: Im very new to beekeeping, this is my first year. I ordered my bees kind of late, but they arrived safely (two 4 lb packages) on May 26, and that evening I hived them in my 2 TBH. One hive took off from the beginning, building fast, by now they have build about 9 nice combs, and a few smaller ones built on the same bars as big ones, almost touching the ends of combs (why did they do it that way, anyway?); it has lots of brood of all stages, some of it is capped already, I haven't seen the queen since I released her, but I wasn't looking too hard for her, since everything seemed to be going good.
The other hive started out a bit slower, but it was building up as well. Two weeks ago we had to leave for 5 days, but our neighbour kept feeding them sugar water, just like we did (I give them 1 gallon of syrup for both of them a day). When we came home, the weak hive seemed to fall behind more yet, with only 3 large comb built and couple small ones on the sides. I inspected it yesterday, no capped brood, multiple eggs in cells, few larvae, the rest is syrup. I followed the advice that mr Bush posted on his web-siteand took a bar of comb with eggs and capped brood from my strong hive and put it in the middle of the weak hives combs. So, here's my problem: today, a few hours ago, one of my hives has swarmed! I didn't see it coming! I didn't see queen cells (I look in the observation windows every night, just to track the progress), I didn't think they had time to raise a new queen, and if my info is correct, that's the old queen that leaves the hive, and that's impossible, because they arrived with clipped wings (at least I ordered them that way, but I never checked) Can somebody PLEASE tell me what has happened? Luckily for me the swarm has settled on a small crab apple, so I went out there and shook it in the bucket, like I've seen it done on U-tube. So I took them in the house, it's cooler here (it's 96 degrees outside). Im thinking of putiing a divider board in my weaker hive and letting them live there for a while (I will give them 8 bars and their own entrance hole) and later combining them. Please, tell me what are your thoughts are on all that! That's too much excitement in 3 weeks! I will appreciate any reply! Thanks again!


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Did they swarm or abscond?


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## geebob (Apr 4, 2011)

I don't think wing clips will prevent a swarm or even prevent a queen from trying to leave.

The swarm will leave before the new queens hatch, so you can probably check for queen cells to confirm. I'm not sure that running a divided hive is a great idea. Can you build/find them a new home?


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Are you sure you just didn't find a feral swarm and your small hive is still just a slow starter??


Tommyt


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## RussianBee (May 5, 2011)

Dear Paul, they swarmed. I checked right after I captured them. There were bees in both hives, I think maybe a little less in the strong hive, but can't tell for sure, it was 12:30 PM, a lot of them were out foraging.
Dear geebob, why don't you think it's a good idea to try to hive them with my weak hive? And I can't find them a good home, I'd like them to stay, I was already worried that my bee numbers are going way down, the new ones haven't emerged yet, I just don't feel like loosing any more right now. I know, I can't MAKE them stay, but I'm going to try. Besides, this swarm is WAY smaller than they usually are (or at least they look a lot bigger on video). The whole swarm was pretty much the size of two tacos put together.
Dear Tommyt, I'm pretty sure it was my hive swarming, I was home and it happened pretty much in front of my own eyes. 
Thank you all for responding to me. But, geebob, how can she fly with clipped wings? I have them in the bucket, but I have mesh over them, so they can breathe, and I feed them sugar syrup, so I can look in, but I don't see her(she was marked), and there's not that terribly many bees to cover her!


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## geebob (Apr 4, 2011)

For the clipped queens, I'll provide this from Michael's site... This was also covered in my beekeeping class.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfallacies.htm



> Clipping the queen will prevent swarming.
> 
> In my experience they will still swarm. It may buy you some time if you're paying attention (like the hives are in your back yard and you check everyday for swarms). They will attempt to swarm and the clipped queen won't be able to fly. They will go back and then they will leave with the first virgin swarm queen to emerge. Counting on clipping to stop them from swarming will end in failure.


I should add that one of my beek classmates found his clipped queen in a swarm of bees in the middle of his yard. I guess she decided that if she couldn't fly she would walk.


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## geebob (Apr 4, 2011)

Why I suggested not running a divided colony...

It just seems to add unnecessary complication that you could avoid by starting another hive. I look at a swarm as a bunch of super-motivated bees. I have a swarm that I trapped three weeks ago that is just about ready for a second box. Unfortunately, I caught them just before I finished my TBH and have trying to find another one to see if I can get my TBH going.


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## RussianBee (May 5, 2011)

Dear geebob, thank you for your responce. I really liked the info on that link, I saved it for the future reference too. But my question is: I have them only for three weeks tomorrow, that'll mean they started raising new queen on day for after being hived. Is that possible at all? Because I don't even thenk they had comb for the first couple days! And please, tell me why don't you think it's a good idea to try combine them with my weaker hive? They seem to be in need of a good home, and looks like my weak hive can really use a young eager queen? I just want them to stay sooo bad, I don't even want honey that much as I want to keep healthy, happy bees!


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## RussianBee (May 5, 2011)

Dear geebob,
Well, looks like you already answered that question. I don't have another TBH ready, we built ours from scratch, and it took us quite a while. Besides, we live in city limits, I think two is all I can have or handle, anyway. 
But thank you so much for your input, I still have so much to learn, thank you for helping me along.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Are these bees Russian? If so, you may be doing this again soon.


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## geebob (Apr 4, 2011)

Well, I'm sure when I get my TBH ready to go, you'll be able to help me out a bit too!

I don't think there is any reason you CAN'T combine the colonies or run them on opposite sides of the divider. I guess it is just that I tend to manage my bees by figuring out what the bees are trying to do, and helping them along. So my situation is a little different from yours!

Going back to your timeline, the swarm cells might have been started about two weeks ago (after a week). That does sound like a remarkably short time between hiving and swarming, but I've stopped being surprised by bee behavior. That's why the advice of the more experienced people is so important. I couldn't imagine doing this without the support that I've gotten from everyone here. Anyway, if that is the case, you should start seeing the virgin queens emerging in the next day or two. Hopefully the weather will be good so she'll be well-mated. Our weather here has been horrible!


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## RussianBee (May 5, 2011)

Yes, they are. I've read yhat they are more likely to swarm, but didn't expect them to do it THAT soon. I've read that usually bees don't swarm their first year, but I guess that is not true eather, huh?


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## geebob (Apr 4, 2011)

Paul McCarty said:


> Are these bees Russian? If so, you may be doing this again soon.


From his posts in a few other threads, I believe they are Russians. 

Just googling around a bit, I found this site... http://kulikoff.com/russianbees/page_7.html Could it be that they found the TBH a little cramped? (Asking that knowing absolutely nothing about TBH or Russian bees.)


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## geebob (Apr 4, 2011)

RussianBee said:


> I've read that usually bees don't swarm their first year, but I guess that is not true eather, huh?


Sounds like neither of our bees read the books!


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## RussianBee (May 5, 2011)

Dear geebob, 
I will see virgin queens emerging from where? (I warned you, Im SOOO new!)
Wow, thank you for another great link, (I saved it for the future too, As far as I could tell this doesn't fit the profile as well: it's a 36'' TBH, I don't use divider boards, the stronger hive has filled about a third of it with their comb, the weaker one has only 4 bars filled (and that is with the bar of brood I took from strong one yesterday) and a couple of small ones on both sides. So they don't look to me like they were running out of room yet


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## geebob (Apr 4, 2011)

I bet you'll see them tucked in their comb somewhere! You talked about some irregular comb in your original post.

I thought swarm cells would be really easy to spot, so when I found one I was told that I probably had more. I looked carefully and found almost 20!


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## RussianBee (May 5, 2011)

Wow! You got me curious! I'm going to go and look for them! But what do I do after I see them? Are the bees going to dissapear on me?


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## geebob (Apr 4, 2011)

Just look (carefully). The queens that emerge will battle it out, mate, and replace your queen. I saw it happen years ago in an observation hive. It was quite incredible as some of the workers tried to keep the recently emerged queen away from the unhatched cells. I think that hive was what eventually gave me the beekeeping bug!


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## RussianBee (May 5, 2011)

I looked (carefully. And you know what? NO queen cells! Not a single one! I took each comb, one by one, turned and looked on both sides and...NONE! I don't know what is going on!


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## geebob (Apr 4, 2011)

Wow... I wonder if Paul or Tommy were right all along?


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## RussianBee (May 5, 2011)

Right about what?


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

I think he ,as I said is thinking you got a feral swarm 
Did you fiscally see this swarm leave your hive ??
If not you may have seen a swarm try and land on your TBH
but found it was occupied and moved to the tree

Tommyt


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## Noz (Jun 7, 2011)

A top bar friend who lives in town has a nuc sitting on a board fence that has caught 2 swarms this year. No special attractants or food, just an open nuc with waxed bars and one bar of old comb.

Both swarms have been successfully hived.


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## geebob (Apr 4, 2011)

That certainly makes sense!

In that case, RussianBee is doing great! Two hives going and a swarm capture in the same month!!

BTW, Noz -- I'll be Wintering my hives down in your neck of the woods, in Cassville (which isn't too far away from RussianBee either!). Do you go to any of the bee meetings in Monett?


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## Noz (Jun 7, 2011)

I'm so new to the sport of bee keeping that I have yet to join the Bee club here. On my list of to dos


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

If you go to the Monet meetings say hi to Bob Clark
Rick


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## geebob (Apr 4, 2011)

It's a great group with loads of knowledge and advice. I attended their April meeting and enjoyed both the company and the food! I hope I can catch another meeting on my next trip.


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## CharlieN (Feb 23, 2011)

geebob said:


> BTW, Noz -- I'll be Wintering my hives down in your neck of the woods, in Cassville


Where at around Cassville? Used to rodeo there a few years back  Just a few miles north of me.

Some new orchards being built up that way, there used to be a lot of apples up there. I have a sister in Exeter.


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## geebob (Apr 4, 2011)

CharlieN said:


> Where at around Cassville?


South of town a little bit (toward Roaring River). I graduated from Cassville, but have lived in Milwaukee most of the time since then. I actually lived in Golden and went to school in Cassville. 

We were just in Garfield last month... trying to figure out if the all you can eat seafood place was still around. We eventually found it, but had the day wrong!

Exeter is a cool little town.


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## RussianBee (May 5, 2011)

Thank you all guys for your support, for quickly answering my questions and just for being such a great bunch! I really appreciate your help! I guess all of what you have said is making a lot more sence now, even thought I could've swore that they swarmed from my hive. I didn't actually SEE them leaving it, but at that time I was working in the yard for a while, admiring their flight pattern (from a distance), then stepped into the house to drink, looked out of the window (it looks into the backyard) and there it was! Like, within 10 feet of my hives! The cloud of bees moved slowly across the backyard (I was praying that my neighbours were NOT looking out of THEIR windows) before finally settling down about 20 yards away from where I had spotted them. The whole thing took maybe 10-15-20 min. altogether. 
So, if it is indeed a feral swarm, here's another question: I hived it last night into my weaker hive (separated by the divider board), I gave them 8 bars and their own entrance. I checked this evening, so far, they are still there. How soon can I combine the two? Is there a ''proper procedure'' to do so? I started with Russian bees because of their tolerance to mites and desiases. Will that affect the resistance if new swarm queen is to take over? I'm stll not sure if my Russian queen is still there and just taking her sweet time to start laying properly (cells have multiple eggs in them), or is it laying worker? Please, tell me what your thoughts are on all of that! Thanks again to all for your help!


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

First and foremost I hope your divider is Tight so they don't sneak over too fight Be sure you give the swarm a good amount of space they want to 
build and they need space if the space looks too small to them 
They will LEAVE,I feel if at this point and time if they had comb and could cover 5 frames then they need at least 10 frames of space now
Swarms have the urge to make a home asap ,this is what I think attracts folks almost as much as the Free Bees 
I would say a swarm of 4lb, a package of 5lb side by side, The swarm would build out the same or faster than the package,
due too their mind set.
If you can afford it go buy a 8ft 1x12 and either plywood or more 1x? and make another TBH ,place your slow bees in that.
Brood and feed helps keep a swarm,it does not have too be eggs (would be good) but at least something for the bees 
to care for,their instincts are to care for brood
By all means nothing is really set in stone with bees,I am just making mention of what I feel will help you along

Good Luck 
Tommyt


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## geebob (Apr 4, 2011)

Glad to help RussianBee! Be sure to update us on how things are going.



tommyt said:


> this is what I think attracts folks almost as much as the Free Bees
> I would say a swarm of 4lb, a package of 5lb side by side, The swarm would build out the same or faster than the package, due too their mind set


Totally agree. It is amazing how fast they build. My two pound swarm is kicking my four pound hive's tail right now. It's like a swarm is the Delta Force of the bee world.

I was really psyched to get a swarm call today... showed up to find a wall full of hornets.:doh:


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## RussianBee (May 5, 2011)

Thank you for your responses, tommyt and geebob! 
I came home too late to give them a comb of eggs, but I will definately do it tomorrow, thanks for your advice, tommyt! But I checked, and they are still there. Not sure if they are building anything yet (they are in a tight ball right between the back wall and the roof, so I can barely see them there). tommyt, did you mean that they need 10 bars now, or that they will need them as soon as they have comb on 5? I'm still not sure about building another TBH, though. Like I said, it took me and my neighbour quite a while to build these two, and I'm not eager to start it all over again, I think two is all I want to have, we are in city limits, and I'm still not quite sure what the ordinances are
Sorry about your hornets, geebob, hope they didn't get you!
Thanks again guys for all your help, I will keep you posted on what's going on.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'd be willing to bet (and I'm no gambler) that I can make a package swarm the first year almost every time. All you have to do is feed syrup constantly and if that hasn't already done it, and it usually will, just let them get a little bit crowded while feeding all that syrup...

http://bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm
"Some people feed a package constantly for the first year. In my experience this usually results in them swarming when they are not strong enough and often failing. Some feed spring, fall and dearth regardless of stores. Some don't believe in feeding at all. Some steal all the honey in the fall and try to feed them back up enough to winter. "

I think the problem is you bypass the feedback loop that recruits foragers. The feedback loop works because foragers unload to the unloader bees. If the unloader bees stop taking the syrup, the foragers can't unload so they try to find something else to do. In the syrup senario, they are foraging. They are just moving syrup from the feeder to the comb. There is no one to refuse taking it since they aren't giving it to anyone. So they store it anywhere they can, including the brood nest. The nurse bees in the brood nest interpret this as a plan to swarm and the sequence of events is set into motion...

http://bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm#reproduction
"When the bees think they have enough bees they start filling all of that back in with honey, both to stop the queen from laying, and to have adequate stores in case the main flow doesn't pan out. As the brood nest gets backfilled it makes more and more unemployed nurse bees. These nurse bees start doing a keening buzz that is quite different from the typical harmonious buzz you usually hear. More of a warble. Once the brood nest is mostly full of honey they start swarm cells. About the time they get capped the old queen leaves with a large number of bees."


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## RussianBee (May 5, 2011)

Dear Michael,
Thank you for you responce, I always greatly enjoy reading your comments (on mine or somebody elses issues)! I love your web-site and find lots of useful info there. Thank you for your help!
About my bees though, I don't think I'm overfeeding them, on the contrary, I'm afraid I not feeding them enough. Right now I'm giving them a gallon of syrup (water-sugar 1:1, plus a few munt leaves boiled in there for the smell and overall well-being). And this means 1 gal for two hives (plus this new swarm now). Even before the swarm, if I put syrup there at 6 am, it's gone by noon. From noon till night they are foraging for their own food. Right now here in KS not too much stuff blooming, I got them pretty late, so they missed out on the good honey flow. It's gonna get worse from now on: typical KS July and August is around or above 100 degrees, plus 20 (30) MPH winds. Everything pretty much shuts down. Do you think I should feed them more? I'm afraid they are going to starve!
I just inspected my weaker hive and a swarm. In the hive there's vert little syrup in the comb, multiple eggs in cells, bunch of capped drone cells (they are the bigger ones with the capps sticking out more, right?) and even though I looked for a queen REALLY hard, I didn't see her there. I believe something has happened to her, and this hive is queenless. There was pretty much no progression there for a while.
The swarm has started building a comb, I did see their queen (beautiful!!!) and I even saw a few eggs in cells (one per cell). 
What do you think about combining the two? How soon can I do it? Can a person do it at all? How soon her phermones will spread in the hive, so they will accept her? How fast and how far do I need to move my follower board, so there's more room for my swarm?
I want to thank everybody for their answers in advance! Thanks for all your help!


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## RussianBee (May 5, 2011)

A little update: the swarm is still there, building fast. Looks like they gonna run out of room pretty fast. So I'm asking for advice here about whether it's possible to combine them with my weaker hive, how it's done and how soon the person can do it? They share the hive for a week now (tomorrow), there is a divider board in between, the gaps sealed with ducktape . But there's a gap between the mesh in the floor and wooden board underneath, so they can get from one end to another that way. This never seemed to be a problem (I don't think they fought with each other), they just stay each at it's own place.I'm righting this to show that hopefully swarm queens pheromones hopefully have penetrated into the weak hive, I just don't know how long should I wait to be on the safe side. By no means, I am no expert (on the contrary), but I think this swarm could be Russian. They look exactly like my bees, and they build comb off to one side (furthest from the entrance) just like mine do. As always, any word of advice or suggestion is greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Any colony that has no capped stores I would always feed. A hive that is overly light for the number of bees (meaning hardly any store) I probably would feed. A hive that has capped stores, a bit of weight and a flow to gather nectar I would not feed. Feeding often creates more problems than it solves and certainly does when there is nectar available.


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