# Odd grafting experience.



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Can happen.

In fall, when some of the hives are superseding & have 2 queens, to make sure I don't take a queen, I put a box of 6 evenly spaced combs on a hive over an excluder, then smoke the crap out of them at the entrance. A few minutes later another smoke, then a few minutes later take the top box off it will be full of bees that can be shaken into the starter. Just, no drones, and no queen.

Same method is used to get bees by most package producers.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Specialkayme - I suspect you probably already know to NOT put those queen cell cups into a starter until they are 1-day-old larvae, right? Eggs just don't work most of the time. You could incubate them, then put into a starter on the 4th day, after they have been a grub for 8 to 20 hours (IMHO, 8 to 10 is better, but other guys have other results).


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Specialkayme said:


> I figured I could put the queen into a nuc, and graft again.


This was your breeder queen? If so, then cool - you've beat the Jenter/Nicot by a few hours (eggs already vertical).


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

kilocharlie said:


> Specialkayme - I suspect you probably already know to NOT put those queen cell cups into a starter until they are 1-day-old larvae, right?


Under normal conditions, yes. I'm just screwing around to see what they do right now. More interesting than anything else. If they treat the eggs like swarm cells, awesome. If they cannibalize the eggs, I'm no worse for the wear. I'll end up regrafting if I don't get enough cells anyway.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

AstroBee said:


> This was your breeder queen?


I don't have a breeder queen, I just graft from my most productive hives. This queen was not the one that I initially grafted from. Although I don't know which queen this hive came from (I allowed several hives to "donate" frames to the swarm box, and allowed other frames to "donate" nurse bees as well), all hives that it could have come from (total of 5 maybe) were very populous and productive. So I wouldn't mind it if they turned into queens.

I think what was most interesting was not only that I'd beat the nicot system by a few hours, but that I mimicked the swarm conditions in the swarm box SO WELL that the queen was just dying to lay eggs in the man made cell cups. If I can keep it up over the next ten days, I should have some very well taken care of swarm cells.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Specialkayme - Being that you are just curious, why not try the 2-day-old queen cell transfer method coming out of New Zealand? I can't wait to try it - get the QC's started in the queenless starter, pull the Cloake Board out, give them another 24 hours queenright, then transfer the 2-day-old queen cells to the nucs. It distributes the QC care and feeding load over a #e!! of a lot more bees instead of stressing the finisher colony with 90 QCs to tend...I'm betting resulting in better queens! It also gets your cycle time on your starter/finisher colonies way down (of course not your total time...but it helps).


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I've heard about the 2-day-old cell method, but haven't actually heard from anyone that actually used it and could report it's success (or lack there of).

In short, I won't be using that method (this time around). The timing of my grafting was not a coincidence. Our main flow is Tulip Poplar, and usually ends by middle to the end of May. After poplars, we get a little trickle of clover until it all stops in July. My plan was to keep the main colonies big while the poplars are blooming, then break down some of their populations to use for mating nucs (only about 16 or so total), so they wouldn't eat themselves out of house and home during the june slow down. Breaking down some of the colonies into mating nucs now would decrease the honey production, going against what I was looking to accomplish. 

My thoughts were if my grafts took, I would make the nucs up around the 21st. Now, if the eggs work out, I can make up the nucs some time around the 23rd. If the eggs don't take and I have to graft again, I'll know by the 15th, meaning I'd make up nucs around the 25th. In all events, mating would cease by mid June, before the dearth sets on full scale. At least, that's my plan. Plus I get to try out "change of days" queens based on the OTS system (although actually grafting).

But, making up nucs in about 5 days doesn't accomplish my goals. Not this time at least.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I just would not bet on eggs in queen cells - it rarely works - but I will cross my fingers for you. Who knows on a weird year like this following a weird year like last year? 

Oh, and there was a thread on 2-day old queen cells recently. Check it out - type it into the beesource search box or go back on the list a few months. The method has been going on in NZ for generations. Best of luck.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

kilocharlie said:


> I just would not bet on eggs in queen cells - it rarely works


I agree, but what he did was to so closely simulate an overcrowding condition that the bees went into swarm prep mode. The "accidental" queen intentionally laid in the cells to prepare for her departure. So, in this case there's a very good chance that these eggs will make it to queens. Of course making swarm conditions is the sweet spot in queen rearing, so he may get some really nice cells out of this "mistake".


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Forgot to ask, what cell cups are you using?


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Astrobee - Yes, I do hope he's in the "window" and gets actual swarm-impulse queens. That's a good bet to become real egg-laying factory mamas. Only other guy who I've heard of getting away with it was Brother Adam, but I'll bet it happens once in a while under a beekeeper's control. It's just so much easier to combine the emergency response for the starter with the supercedure impulse for the finisher during swarming season and by crowding and feeding to take any advantage of swarming impulse that you can, getting all 3 queen-producing forces going for you.

The keys to high-quality queens made under combined-impulses methods by breeders has largely been uninterrupted feeding and care of the QC's by nurse bees, and timely mating of the virgin queens. Swarm queens have always ranked high. Let's pray they come out displaying hygenic traits and mite mauling to boot!

Also - I like your website. If I find the Australian honey wound-healing article again, I'll pass it along for you to post on your "Bee Informed" section.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

As a slight aside, I've had something a little similar when there has been an accidental mated queen above the excluder in a finishing colony.

The queen (or bees I don't know), has torn all the cells down. Then, by the time I find out, there are new eggs in some of those same cells.

Kinda frustrating, if they want cells, why not leave the original ones for me.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I'll check out that thread this afternoon kilo. Thanks.

The cups were jzbz wide base.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> Kinda frustrating, if they want cells, why not leave the original ones for me.


That's what I was thinking. They destroyed 27 out of 30 cells (probably some of them were grafts that didn't take, no doubt). By the time they got around to destroying the 27th cell, they changed their mind and started having the queen lay eggs in the cups. Interesting.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I checked on them again today, about 36 hours after the last check and 52 hours after the first graft. There were 3 of my grafts that were still around the last time. Only one this time. But she laid about a half a dozen more eggs in cups, making for a total of 18 eggs in cups now. But the one graft that was left looked phenomenal: 





I put this one in a mating nuc that went queenless after the last round. There should be plenty of bees to care/finish this one off.

I'll keep you guys posted on the other 18 egg/cups. They haven't cannibalized them yet, so I'm hopeful. I'm thinking about waiting till the eggs hatch, maybe plus 24 hours, then removing the queen and adding another frame of capped brood to the finisher. I really don't want that queen around some of the more developed cells (she makes me nervous she'll do something). Still deciding, since it's an experiment and all.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

It is probably related to swarming impulse, you could probably leave everything as is till the cells are capped, the bees ought to do a great job of raising them. If you are worried about them getting torn down, move either cells, or queen, straight after capping.


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> As a slight aside... Then, by the time I find out, there are new eggs in some of those same cells.
> 
> Kinda frustrating, if they want cells, why not leave the original ones for me.


They want_* their *_ genetics to pass on and proliferate.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

That is why we employ the Cloake Board to make them temporarily queenless in the starter colony - to elicit the _emergency response_ when getting them to raise another queen's larvae. The host queen gets in, she'll do exactly that! Replace those foreign cells with her own. Also, the emergency response will get them to start many, many QC's. They just won't take care of them all very long. Pulling the Cloake Board out returns them to queenright, so they go into _supercedure impulse_ mode, and take very good care of them all, given good crowding and feeding (pollen and honey).


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## David Cassity (May 16, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Can happen.
> 
> In fall, when some of the hives are superseding & have 2 queens, to make sure I don't take a queen, I put a box of 6 evenly spaced combs on a hive over an excluder, then smoke the crap out of them at the entrance. A few minutes later another smoke, then a few minutes later take the top box off it will be full of bees that can be shaken into the starter. Just, no drones, and n
> 
> Same method is used to get bees by most package producers.



That's a good piece of advise to file away. I still struggle with young queen id


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