# OAV or no Bees



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

That is not the norm. That bee supplier is crazy. Keeping 10% when it is the seller who backed out of the deal is theft.

I treat with OAV. It works really really well. But, I think people should be free to choose whether or not to treat for mites for themselves.

JMHO




.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Sounds like a bee's rights activist. I would contact the better business bureau and the state Attorney General about it. Unless there was a contract pre-signed then the 10% "handling fee" could be considered theft. I don't think you can just take someone's money, refuse to give them a product and then charge them..........Hmmmm......maybe I found a new business model!


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

shinbone 100% :thumbsup: I use OAV on my bees some times, I don"t treat unless I see that it is needed. If you treat all the time, you have to keep treating. When I sale a nuc, I treat with OAV, just because...I would buy my bees from some one else or agree to treat, when you get them home you do what you want to..JMO....The supplier just an't right.........


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## Green Tractor (Mar 31, 2016)

OAV should not be the focus - theft is the issue here. Contact the state AG and Ag Department. 

Also I'd post everywhere this mysterious sellers name. It is a responsibility to "out" bad businesses (Yelp, etc.). Were I near you, I'd want to know this seller's name to avoid him entirely. Today it's his views on OAV...what tomorrow? Bad actors can always find an excuse to rationalize their bad acts. I don't want to be near those kinds of people and always make sure my friends are aware of issues so they don't also get hurt.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

If I sell a nuc to a person, I tell em you have to implement a treatment plan for the mites and try to get the point across there's many ways, BUT you've got to do something. 
I would never refuse a nuc to someone that wants to go treatment free or any other "non" chemical treatment methods, that's their business not mine. 
The way way your friend was treated was just plain nuts, kinda reminds me of the "soup nazi" skit from Seinfeld.


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

Green Tractor and rwlaw :thumbsup::gh:


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Bees of SC said:


> Green Tractor and rwlaw :thumbsup::gh:


What no love here :s :waiting:


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

I have LOVE for the BEES,,ain't live with bees great?


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## Green Tractor (Mar 31, 2016)

thehackleguy said:


> What no love here :s :waiting:


I'll bump ya... :thumbsup: Mutual Appreciation Society, and all.

I think everyone here agrees the dude was shady.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

ok so as far as I know OAV is still illegal in many states, has your state approved it yet? If not, I'd point that out to the states attorney as well.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

The supplier should have made their refusal to sell to TF beekeepers clear right from the start. And even if that was the case, to require one particular type of treatment is absurd. And then to hold back 10% of the refund - well, that's just plain wrong. 

Perhaps he thought he could get away with it because the buyer might not have access to phones and internet to contact the AG. But everybody has access to the post office to send a complaint. And we all have friends and fellow beekeepers to pass the word on.

Enj.


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## Green Tractor (Mar 31, 2016)

Sharing legitimate experiences helps everyone.

I almost bought Blueberry plants from a company in New Jersey - a place called DiMeo Farms. They called me for days after my inquiry, wondering when I would order. Then I told them I checked their Yelp reviews and the woman on the other end deadpanned, "Oh." in a beaten down voice. Never called me again and it seems I may have saved a lot of money and frustration. 

Honestly I should have known better. As a former New Yorker, I put Jersey right near fire ants on my happy list.


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## bucksbees (May 19, 2015)

Harley Craig said:


> ok so as far as I know OAV is still illegal in many states, has your state approved it yet? If not, I'd point that out to the states attorney as well.


Legal in 41 states. Found this out two days ago, Bushy Mtns has a list of which state is what on their website.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

MR2Bs said:


> Sorry if this is not posted in the right place. But this has been bothering me for a week now.
> 
> Last Friday I drove an Amish Beekeeping friend over to pick up his packages. When we went inside the office we were met by the owner, he started questioning my friend about his treatment plans for mites and if it included using OAV. When he replied no, the owner went off. Telling him if he doesn't use OAV then he could not have the bees. After arguing for a few minutes the owner refunded his money, minus 10% handling fee. What a ripoff.
> 
> ...


It's obvious this guy does not have treatment free bees and he has found a treatment that works for him. He doesn't want to sell bees to someone that will let them die. How many people here have said find out how your supplier keeps their bees and do what they do.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Dan the bee guy said:


> It's obvious this guy does not have treatment free bees and he has found a treatment that works for him. He doesn't want to sell bees to someone that will let them die. How many people here have said find out how your supplier keeps their bees and do what they do.


 What does that have to do with anything? To me, it would be like saying (when you showed up to pick up the nuc) if you don't manage the bees like I do, you owe me 10% and I cant release the nuc. Or,, how's this one (when you show up to pick up the nuc)? If you plan on treating these TF bees, you owe me 10%, and I can't sale you the nuc. It is the buyers right to do what they want with their purchase. There is no guarantee the bees will remain alive either way once they leave the sellers hands


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## bucksbees (May 19, 2015)

Just throwing out a snowball idea.

Maybe the seller been selling to TF people for awhile. Every time he does, he gets a phone call from some one complaining that the hive is dead, or the hive is sick. The guy then has to go through explaining the issue time after time after time. Then he becomes the bad guy for selling treated bees to TF people. Those people tell other people that this guys bees are bad and not buy from him, and the seller has been up front the whole time about them needing to be treated.

Sounds like he has a policy not to sell to the TF crowd to avoid headaches. It is a lost either way for him, just one has less headaches and telephone calls.

I how ever do not agree with him keeping 10%.


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## MR2Bs (Jun 1, 2013)

Just an update. Today I had a surprise visit from the state bee inspector. He check all 11 hives found very low mite counts. When I say very low 3 mites out of 11 hives. Gave me an A+ bill of health. I told him what happened with my friend, he replied that the state is aware of the supplier and he is being investigated. From what I gathered from the bee inspector this guy could be facing jail time from his actions. He was leaving here going to see my amish friend to get a statement from him. BTW I did fill out a report as a witness of what happened. I was asked not to publish this guys name until after the investigation is complete.


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## ordy28 (Sep 10, 2013)

Just as appalling to me is that half of your bee club agreed with how the seller handled the situation.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

If there were conditions that should have been stated up front, and the holdback of the fellows money is not acceptable.

That said, I agree with Bucksbees snowball idea having some merit. I know one isolated area in Northern Ontario that was mite free and their association were not shy to put pressure on new comers to maintain the vigilance. I understand someone did bring in outside bees and they had an outbreak but may have managed to put it back in the bottle.

I am selling some splits ~end of June and I will not be selling to someone who is not prepared to treat and they certainly will need to be fed to get them up to wintering weight for our 7 month no fly zone. My colonies appear to be mite free but not treatment free and dont want to get taken up into someones tale of woe if their experience and inclination points to that being quite likely.

No entrapment and no last minute surprises!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Keeping 10% is a bit off because the seller should have made the OA requirement plain earlier, so nobody had to waste their time.

However in another way this seller could be considered highly ethical. There is so much complaining on Beesource about buying packages which last a season and die of mites. The seller takes the money and runs.

But this guy, could have just taken the money which I'm sure he wanted to, but instead insisted the purchaser use OA, to ensure those bees would survive long term. I think he was sacrificing his sale to do what he believed to be the right thing, just, there is a communication issue, the OA requirement should have been communicated sooner.

Every so often I get someone wanting to buy bees who for whatever reason I KNOW is going to fail. I politely decline, but have sometimes later found somebody else sold to them. In one case I knew the purchasers property, they told me they wanted a hive for pollination but were never going to open the hive. I didn't sell to them but somebody did because later I saw a hive as I drove past their place. It got AFB, died, got robbed, and led to an AFB outbreak in the area. The people who bought it were plainly not going to be good beekeepers and nobody should have sold to them.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I have mellowed as I have gotten older. We see a lot of stories here about dead queens being delivered late because somebody opted for 2-day shipping. I am usually on the fence about these issues, but I would rip the guy a new one if he withheld 10% because he wouldn't sell you the bees; for any reason. It really is not about the amount of money, but he would have my personal vendetta on his hands.


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

A bad BBB review can do wonders if the person cares about his reputation. From what I understand, he shouldn't have any issue selling the bees to someone else.

I assume the Amish gentleman had a religious based objection to the treatment? Unfortunately, we don't have many religious based rights these days.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

I agree with others opinions on the matter. There are good points here, but remember, the guy did not ask if he was going to be TF. He simply asked if he was going to use OA on them. There are numerous other treatment methods that treat for mites that are not considered TF. Such as:

1. Formic acid, like MAQS
2. Amitraz, like apivar

If he would have stipulated in the beginning that if the consumer was not going to treat for mites that there would be a 10% fee for cancelling the sale and get a signature in agreement to the customer before the sale, he would have been in good standing.


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## BeeBop (Apr 23, 2015)

MR2Bs said:


> Now is this the new norm is in beekeeping? OAV or no Bees..


Not around here. Here the seller tells you there's no need to worry about mites. Just use a screened bottom board, the mites will fall through it and everything will be good. 

Refusing to sell bees to someone because they don't want to treat them is one thing. 
Keeping 10% of their money is another. 
Your seller is a criminal and needs to: A) be driven out of business, and B) spend a couple of months of jail time as a reminder not to rip people off.


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## MR2Bs (Jun 1, 2013)

I need to clarify. My amish friend does treat for mites he uses MWQS. The big stink is he will not be using OAV as part of his treatment. This supplier insist on everyone that gets bee packages from him use OAV. No other treatment will get you his bees. 

Hackleguy I am not a activist the reason I will not use OAV is I do not want to loose my Organic Certification for the other crops from the farm. For I also have Maple Syrup, stone ground flour and pick your own fruits and veggies. As long has I am getting the great results from my lemon juice treatment I will not consider chemicals.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hmm pretty odd, maybe the vendor has a mental disorder or something?

What's to stop someone just SAYING they will use OAV?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

MR2Bs said:


> I will not use OAV is I do not want to loose my Organic Certification for the other crops from the farm.


But OA (from what I've heard) is OK to use as a pesticide and you don't lose your organic certification..........


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I sell bees to naive folks who have seen all sorts of fairy tales on the internet. It really hard and soul crushing to put months of effort into colonies and exchange them for cash when you know the buyer will kill the colony in a year. 

Usually I bite my lip, but occasionally I have a bad day and really rip into the fantasy that these naive, gullible newbees have been indoctrinated with. 

I suspect the "Amish beekeeper" in this tale was tired of being lectured by the You-Tube generation on the miracles of TF beekeeping. Doesn't have anything to do with the original poster, he had just had enough of the first-time know-it-alls. Perhaps a phone call earlier in the day had sent him over the edge.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

First of all I would have pressed charges against the seller for theft. Once that was settled I would have sued him for damages to my business. He needed to state all conditions of the sale before taking my money. simple as that. Otherwise I can sell people crap all day long. refuse to deliver and keep their money as well. Care to buy something from me, anything at all?


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## LittleByLittle (Dec 8, 2015)

Green Tractor said:


> OAV should not be the focus - theft is the issue here. Contact the state AG and Ag Department.


^Agreed. If the seller stipulated before he received any money that the buyer had to use OAV then fine -- might be crazy or an extremist but not criminal. 

To start making up requirements after the fact and refusing to sell the person bees after having already accepted the money is crazy and irresponsible, since now you're stuck trying to find other bees late. 

To do that *and* keep part of the money...that's where you cross into criminal.


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## Coach62 (Mar 26, 2016)

MR2Bs said:


> As long has I am getting the great results from my lemon juice treatment I will not consider chemicals.


Ok, that brings about a few questions. Could you please elaborate on this lemon juice treatment, as well as its efficacy? I think we'd all prefer natural as long as it's effective.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

didn't even read past the first post. I would have walked back in with either the law or some machined steel in my hand for my refund. 

Your Amish friend was ripped off and the person that did it is a thief. Post his name would be a good way to handle it.

Edit: Ok so you cannot post his name, but when the case clears post it. He is a thief and stating what happened is completely legal. He deserves it. Not the name of his company, his name. The world needs to know.


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## MR2Bs (Jun 1, 2013)

I plan on exposing this crook as soon has the state is done.

Five beekeepers as well as myself are planning on splitting some of our hives and trading for some hive bodies. He builds some great boxes from hard wood.

Coach62 here is a link to the lemon treatment I use http://www.buzzaboutbees.net/support-files/lemon-juice-to-counteract-varroa.pdf 
I have found it to do a great job keeping my mites under control as well as SHB. Its not 100% but neither is OA. I used it for last 5 years to mist the bees every time I do a hive inspection or when I am installing new bees from a swarm or package. Last year I started adding it to 1:1 sugar syrup a 1/2 cup lemon juice to a gallon syrup. In a earlier reply I mentioned the state bee inspector stopped by inspected my 11 hives and found only 3 mites out of all of them. 3 mites out of 11 hive I think is very acceptable.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

JWChesnut, well you certainly did not bite your lip there
MR2Bs, I know nothing about counting mites, but I would demand a recount:lpf:


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

As I said, above, holding the money back while refusing to make the sale is a rip-off.

But I am interested in the other responses about refusing to sell bees to people who intend to try to make a go at TF-beekeeping. One of the ideas I am toying with is producing overwintered nucs for sale, and I have already decided that I will flatly refuse to sell them to anyone who tells me they won't treat for varroa. I can't prevent them from lying to me in order to get my bees, of course. 

But I haven't the heart to consign my carefully raised nucs to miserable and short lives, beset with mites and viral diseases. I wasn't brave enough to mention that in my initial post, however, since I thought it would seem too wacky. I am glad to see that my plan is not a total outlier.

Enj.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

enjambres said:


> As I said, above, holding the money back while refusing to make the sale is a rip-off.
> 
> But I am interested in the other responses about refusing to sell bees to people who intend to try to make a go at TF-beekeeping. One of the ideas I am toying with is producing overwintered nucs for sale, and I have already decided that I will flatly refuse to sell them to anyone who tells me they won't treat for varroa. I can't prevent them from lying to me in order to get my bees, of course.
> 
> ...


they aren't wedding cakes....... What makes you so sure TF folks would want your bees anyways? I always ask what someone treats with and how often and when the last treatment was when I have bought bees in the past, and if they treat I don't want them, especially if they are treating with antibiotics prophylactic-ally


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## bucksbees (May 19, 2015)

So I guess the full gist of this is TF people only want to buy from other TF people, and Non-TF people only want to sell to other Non-TF people.

So, in other news water is wet, and the sun is hot.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

And like the cat, them TF people keep coming back.


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## MR2Bs (Jun 1, 2013)

I wish everyone would read the post and not jump to conclusions. The Amish guy is not treatment free, he does use MWQS for treatment. The hole thing is this supplier refused to sell the bees to the Amish Guy because he refuses to use Oxlic Acid. It has nothing to do with him not treating his bees. It would be like a car dealership saying their not going to sell you a car because your not going to treat it right by using Penzoil instead of Valvoline. Come on this guy is a crook and I can't believe how so many of you are sticking up for the supplier. He stole 125 dollars from him and just because you think he is treatment free it is alright.


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## SS Auck (May 8, 2015)

MR2Bs said:


> I plan on exposing this crook as soon has the state is done.
> 
> I mentioned the state bee inspector stopped by inspected my 11 hives and found only 3 mites out of all of them. 3 mites out of 11 hive I think is very acceptable.


how??? what??? huh???? Beyond the lemon juice and "silent spring" this is the other funny thing. OAV will kill babies watch out. 

on another note you found a bad bee supplier. but when there is money to be made there are pieces of crap looking to scr*w people.


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## rw willy (Dec 7, 2014)

MR2Bs said:


> I wish everyone would read the post and not jump to conclusions. The Amish guy is not treatment free, he does use MWQS for treatment. The hole thing is this supplier refused to sell the bees to the Amish Guy because he refuses to use Oxlic Acid. It has nothing to do with him not treating his bees. It would be like a car dealership saying their not going to sell you a car because your not going to treat it right by using Penzoil instead of Valvoline. Come on this guy is a crook and I can't believe how so many of you are sticking up for the supplier. He stole 125 dollars from him and just because you think he is treatment free it is alright.


For starters, why does the guy have to be Amish? Second: you are the one waiting to cut a deal w/this schister for hive bodies.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

bucksbees said:


> So I guess the full gist of this is TF people only want to buy from other TF people, and Non-TF people only want to sell to other Non-TF people.


Lilliputians.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Agree I would have returned with some backup for a refund. The man is a thief.


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## bucksbees (May 19, 2015)

Riverderwent said:


> Lilliputians.


Very good use of the word. Thank you.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Huh? I thought I did., hopefully 10% was not 125. The supplier sucks bee larvae


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Green Tractor said:


> I'll bump ya... :thumbsup: Mutual Appreciation Society, and all.
> 
> I think everyone here agrees the dude was shady.


LOL...Thanks!


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## MR2Bs (Jun 1, 2013)

rw willy I am not dealing with the schister, I am dealing with the Amish that got ripped off. The club members got together and we offered him ten slips to cover the ten packages he did not receive. Free of charge. He refused the bees for free but wanted to trade hive bodies he makes for them.


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## bucksbees (May 19, 2015)

MR2Bs said:


> The club members got together and we offered him ten slips to cover the ten packages he did not receive. Free of charge. He refused the bees for free but wanted to trade hive bodies he makes for them.


This is what I was hoping to see. A fair trade of work or goods for bees. The fact it is from the club is even better.

I do have a question, did those that supported what the seller did kick in bees for fair trade as well?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>But I haven't the heart to consign my carefully raised nucs to miserable and short lives, beset with mites and viral diseases. I wasn't brave enough to mention that in my initial post, however, since I thought it would seem too wacky. I am glad to see that my plan is not a total outlier.

Wow... apparently no one told my bees how bad they have it... they forgot to be beset with mites and viral diseases...


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

MR2Bs said:


> Hackleguy I am not a activist .


I was refering to the bee seller......lots of mis-communication in this thread :gh:


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

enjambres said:


> As I said, above, holding the money back while refusing to make the sale is a rip-off.
> 
> But I am interested in the other responses about refusing to sell bees to people who intend to try to make a go at TF-beekeeping. One of the ideas I am toying with is producing overwintered nucs for sale, and I have already decided that I will flatly refuse to sell them to anyone who tells me they won't treat for varroa. I can't prevent them from lying to me in order to get my bees, of course.
> 
> ...


I'm thinking about doing that next season also, but I'm going to charge quite a bit more for an over-wintered nuc that can be picked up around April 15- May 1 booming......But I don't care if they treat or not, I'm going to tell them I treat with OAV, if they want to take the chance of not treating I'm not against it. After they pay me, they are not mine anymore and my hard work will be spent on a tractor hopfully


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

Regardless of anything else him keeping 10% would be a problem. I'm old school, sell to who you want, when you want but


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

dtrooster said:


> Regardless of anything else him keeping 10% would be a problem. I'm old school, sell to who you want, when you want but


Yes, that is why I was the first to say this: 



thehackleguy said:


> Unless there was a contract pre-signed then the 10% "handling fee" could be considered theft. I don't think you can just take someone's money, refuse to give them a product and then charge them.



I think everyone agrees on that.


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## rw willy (Dec 7, 2014)

MR2Bs said:


> rw willy I am not dealing with the schister, I am dealing with the Amish that got ripped off. The club members got together and we offered him ten slips to cover the ten packages he did not receive. Free of charge. He refused the bees for free but wanted to trade hive bodies he makes for them.


I apologize for reading your post incorrectly. Good to hear you & the club is helping him out. Take care


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## NiceTom (Jul 23, 2015)

It makes me think that maybe the guy oversold the bees-was some packages short on who he had made promises to, and taken money from-but still wanted to keep as much of the money as he could. Around here, the Amish aren't known to be the sort to take you to court.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Yes, generally Amish are passive people and won't sue or fight for rights and are probably targeted to be taken advantage of by some people. I am glad you helped him out MR2Bs.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

The dude is a thief. I would have gotten the full refund AND CHARGED HIM 10%!!! I'd have called the police right then and there. Horrible behavior imo. 
Does he state that he will conduct an interview with potential clients Ala adoption? 
BTW "jail time"??? I kinda doubt this guy will go to jail or even be formally convicted of anything more serious than a misdemeanor. I actually doubt he will be charged with any criminal offense. These days people need to sink and ocean liner before they go to jail. That or look sideways at a puppy or any other animal. ADO NOT get caught doing that LOL


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