# Sustaining Treatment Free - How Many Colonies Do You Need?



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I am of the opinion that it is very difficult to sustain a treatment free apiary unless you have enough colonies to recover from losses. If you're treating, I think you can sustain an apiary with as few as a handful of hives, but my experience so far tells me that to be able to maintain a treatment free apiary without having to buy bees every year, you have quite a few more than that.

What are your thoughts on this? Does buying from an established treatment free beekeeper change the picture?

How many hives do you need in order to create a sustainable apiary of treatment free bees?

Adam


----------



## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

At first I thought 5. Then I was thinking 10. Now I am thinking 20, say 10 full colonies and 10 nucs. This is based on very little experience, but from reading here, Dee Lusby's group and the Michael and Kirk's sites. I would think stock and local climate have to be factors. It is going to take more colonies in Ontario than in Tennessee and more colonies when starting with treated stock than with stock already living treatment free somewhere.

I am interested to hear what some of the more experienced TF beeks have to say.


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Its a very interesting question. which the answer too seems to be ridiculous..... How many to keep because we know there going to die??? That seems to me to be accepting defeat, and offering bees upon the alter of the treatment free gods.....

Shouldn't the answer bee the same as any other beekeeper would want in their yards?? Seems to me the real questions, are what and where can I get the genetics and the plan I need to succeed??? doing things like splitting off nucs to cull mites , may not pass some test of treatment free, but they sure would mine....
The concept of just getting enough bees and letting them die off and hope that a few don't is my idea of crazy.......

That said, normal die off at 30% add that to what you hope your final total is.


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

gmcharlie said:


> Its a very interesting question. which the answer too seems to be ridiculous..... How many to keep because we know there going to die???...
> The concept of just getting enough bees and letting them die off and hope that a few don't is my idea of crazy...


That would be crazy, except that's not what I'm suggesting. 

It doesn't actually work out that way. You're not figuring a number "because we know they're going to die", we're figuring a number knowing that they *could *die. It's essentially the same as any other apiary. As you say "normal die off" might be 30% - so we're trying to figure out what might be "normal" for a treatment free operation.

In my case, I had a 27% winter loss, but my colonies were weaker coming out of winter. So maybe I need some extra to be able to combine, or strengthen or whatever. We also had a terrible Spring, so who knows how much that had to do with things...

So it may be that a treatment free operation has a normal annual loss rate of 40% or 50%, but I really doubt that it's any more than that. Once you know a general number, you can plan like anyone else can.

Of course, it's all a bit imperfect, as it is agriculture, and weather and region plays a big role - but that's beekeeping for everyone - treatments or not.

Adam


----------



## Steves1967 (May 16, 2012)

Hopefully after a few years a person might have some stock that would be adapted to local conditions.


----------



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I have been treatment free for years using non-resistant bees, and I had about a 65% loss last winter, all due to heavy mite loads. The ones that made it through alive were very weak, and have not built up to peak strength until now, halfway throught the main flow. I cannot continue to experience that high percentage loss in my sideline business any more, that is why I am going to treat with something this fall and hopefully get a much better survival rate. I know I didn't really answer your question, but imo after being through what I have been through over the years with no treatments, I have to say that if you are just playing around with bees and have a deep pocketbook, you can go treatment free, but if you are serious about making some money with bees, you probably should be treating with something to at least try to avoid substantial losses. John


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I find it a little hard to understand the idea of bees as animals to be cared for in the same sense as other livestock. I'm fond of my bees, but really, they're wild animals which have a very tenuous emotional connection to me as a primate. I'm a science fiction writer, and one of the reason I find the bees so fascinating is that they seem like alien creatures to me. Having a bee hive turns out to be a lot like having a box full of tiny stinging Martians. 

Bees are not long-lived creatures in any case-- in summer, a few weeks is it. They're going to die pretty soon, no matter what you do. Even if you treat, you're going to have a lot of colonies die-- didn't gmcharlie just quote a rate of 30 percent? That's not a whole lot better than the die off of untreated colonies, according to the BeeInformed survey:



> On average, U.S. beekeepers lost 45.1% of the colonies in their operation during the
> winter of 2012/2013.


If you look at the breakdown by management philosophy, treatment free beekeepers-- those who use no non-bee derived products in their hives-- had mean losses of 33.6%. Beekeepers who were willing to use anything had losses of 35.7%.

I'm just not getting this "it's cruel to let weak bees die" point of view. Almost anything you use to treat for mites and other problems is going to negatively affect the colony's quality of life, and prolongs the process of developing bees that can co-exist with the parasites. People can do this; it's a demonstrated fact. Why not do it?


----------



## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

gmcharlie said:


> That said, normal die off at 30% add that to what you hope your final total is.


This makes the most sense. Find the percentage that works in your area and buffer for bad luck. The luck can play a big factor when you have fewer than 10 colonies.


----------



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

rhaldridge said:


> Almost anything you use to treat for mites and other problems is going to negatively affect the colony's quality of life, and prolongs the process of developing bees that can co-exist with the parasites.


I used to think the exact same thing, but its come down to either giving up beekeeping as a sideline business or treating. It was a no-brainer for me, I want to keep bees so I have to give treating a try. Its not what I believe is best for the bees, or for possibly developing a bee that can live with varroa and still have a better than 50% chance of wintering well. If I could have only had 35% winter loss I would not be talking about treating, rather I would be wintering whatever number of hives it took to give me a couple hundred live healthy hives come spring after you subtract the winter losses. John


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i have room for 12 hives in my home yard, and my goal is to have them strong and capable of honey production.

last year i caught six swarms and located them at an outyard.

i lost six hives between both yards over the winter, so the extra six allowed me to start spring with a full compliment of 12 at home.

i caught more swarms and reared some queens this year, so i'll be going into winter with 12 at home and 15 five frame nucs at the outyard.

i can only attribute one of my losses last winter to mite overload, the other five appeared to be from queen failure. i feel that having the nucs will allow me to requeen any of the production hives if needed in late winter/early spring which is before queens are locally available.

any surplus nucs will be sold and i'll start the process again. time will tell, but i think this plan will make my sideline operation sustainable and allow for growth when i retire from the day job and have more time for bees.


----------



## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

jmgi said:


> I have been treatment free for years using non-resistant bees, and I had about a 65% loss last winter, all due to heavy mite loads. The ones that made it through alive were very weak, and have not built up to peak strength until now, halfway throught the main flow. I cannot continue to experience that high percentage loss in my sideline business any more, that is why I am going to treat with something this fall and hopefully get a much better survival rate. I know I didn't really answer your question, but imo after being through what I have been through over the years with no treatments, I have to say that if you are just playing around with bees and have a deep pocketbook, you can go treatment free, but if you are serious about making some money with bees, you probably should be treating with something to at least try to avoid substantial losses. John


What were your losses like in the years before? Why not resistant stock?


----------



## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> i can only attribute one of my losses last winter to mite overload, the other five appeared to be from queen failure.


Any thoughts on the cause of queen failure? Age?


----------



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

squarepeg, only 1 hive lost to mites out of 18 over winter is real good for no treatment imo. John


----------



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

zhiv9, losses two years ago were similar. Did have one year in between that was better. I tried a large group of vsh bees last year, it didn't help. John


----------



## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

jmgi said:


> zhiv9, losses two years ago were similar. Did have one year in between that was better. I tried a large group of vsh bees last year, it didn't help. John


That's too bad the percentages were so high and didn't improve. It does line up climate-wise. Losses in this area were high this year, low last year and high the year before.

Is there are lot of corn in your area?


----------



## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Adam, I had no disrespct intended, I think you understood that,, just trying to provoke some thoughts. I attempt to be treatment free, but I am by no means a purist. I do brood breaks to control mites. (I find that seems to be the only reliable method survivors use also) so for me the right answer is a fall check, and treat as needed... treatment being brood breaks, or last year it was so bad I did use MQS on several hives....... That allowed me to have good and normal winter survival, and keep my "treatment free" breeders going just fine. those are used this year as breeder hives, but of course they got a brood break when they were installed, so it will be a while before I know how they faired.

I did notice that both this year and last, at some point in the season, all brood rearing stopped in my treatment free hives. What i don't know because i don't mark queens, is why.....

My point being that if your going to ignore the issues, and just hope and pray, you can't even begin to guess how many you will need to stay at a level number.


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

jmgi said:


> zhiv9, losses two years ago were similar. Did have one year in between that was better. I tried a large group of vsh bees last year, it didn't help. John


Have you looked for local treatment-free stock? I'm getting a nuc up in NY from a treatment free beekeeper who had about 25% losses over last winter, which I think is not bad, and can be sustained from in-apiary stock. I'm also thinking about making up a BeeWeaver nuc to take north. A fair number of successful treatment free beekeepers seem to make increase from swarms as well.

I think you have to assume that you might have to try a lot of different bees before you find a batch that does well in your setting. This may be one of the major reasons why some folks succeed and some folks fail at avoiding treatment. I'll end the year with bees from 4 different suppliers, 5 if I get a BeeWeaver queen.


----------



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

It would be interesting to know if there are beeks out there who run over 100 colonies treatment free year over year? I hope I'm wrong, but I can't imagine it, well ok, Michael Bush does it that I know of. I'm thinking the number has to be very low. John


----------



## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

I am completely treatment free other than I do use screened bottom boards. I got back into beekeeping in March of 2009, purchasing 2 colonies, 1 of which I believe was Africanized [ahb]. I split and requeened the Ahb and later also the other colony. These purchased colonies were standard or large cell. I regressed all of my colonies and splits to small cell within a few months. 

I went into winter last year with 9 colonies and this spring I had 9 although 1 was queenless but they were able to make a queen from eggs from another colony. I sold 1- 3 medium and 19 - 2 medium colonies this year. I currently have 4 left and plan to split again by this fall to enter winter with at least 8 and maybe 12-16 colonies.

I sold 5- 2 deep colonies during 2011, and during 2012 I sold 10 colonies, a mixture of deeps and mediums. All of those colonies have survived as far as I know except 1. Can't say about the 20 I sold this year since most of those went out of town.

I moved 16 colonies last year to cotton. When I brought them home first of September 2012, all were very weak with low populations and I had 3 or 4 that were dead. I was only able to nurse 9 to be ready for the winter, but all of those survived the 2012/2013 winter.

Hope this gives you a general idea of the question that you proposed.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

jmgi said:


> It would be interesting to know if there are beeks out there who run over 100 colonies treatment free year over year? I hope I'm wrong, but I can't imagine it, well ok, Michael Bush does it that I know of. I'm thinking the number has to be very low. John


There's a fairly acrimonious thread over on the commercial forum on this very subject, something like "Are there any treatment free commercial beekeepers?"

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: hundreds of posts.


----------



## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

gmcharlie said:


> I do brood breaks to control mites. (I find that seems to be the only reliable method survivors use also)
> I did notice that both this year and last, at some point in the season, all brood rearing stopped in my treatment free hives. What i don't know because i don't mark queens, is why.....


When temperatures here in Texas approach 100F, the queens seem to quit laying, a natural brood break which usually last from mid July thru mid August [or until we get that first good cold front to break the back of summer, usually towards the end of August] in our area. My guess is that this would help for summer mite buildup. That being said, I do think, at least for me, that small cell has made the difference. I had large mite counts and frequently saw mites on the backs of bees until I was fully regressed. Now I hardly ever see mites. I usually make splits with purchased queens, VSH, MHQ, and/or www.beeweaver.com . Also have used some of Joseph Clemens supposed cordovan Sunkist and have had good luck with any and all.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


----------



## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

jmgi said:


> It would be interesting to know if there are beeks out there who run over 100 colonies treatment free year over year? I hope I'm wrong, but I can't imagine it, well ok, Michael Bush does it that I know of. I'm thinking the number has to be very low. John


Maybe these videos will be of some use for you [Daniel Weaver's story, 2 parts].
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQhwc3Rt-g0

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cbCZOCyD-c


Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I think that the question is really: 'how can I improve my odds of having sustainable, treatment free bees?'.

In my opinion, you need just 1 hive, but they do have to be the 'right bees'.

It's more a matter of the source of your bees, rather than the number of colonies.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

zhiv9 said:


> Any thoughts on the cause of queen failure? Age?


not sure z.

perhaps poor nutrition when the queens were developing or perhaps they were not well mated well. this was my third winter with bees and it didn't happen before.



jmgi said:


> squarepeg, only 1 hive lost to mites out of 18 over winter is real good for no treatment imo. John


thanks jmgi, i verified the collapse from mites with an alcohol wash, it was over 100% infestion. 

the queen failures could have been mite related, i didn't do counts on those hives. i found them with laying workers in late winter and shook them out.

the bees i am using come from a treatment free supplier who started 16 years ago with local feral survivors. the first two winters i had no losses (four hives the first winter, 10 hives the second winter)

i plan to do mite counts before fall arrives so i can see if there is any correlation to winter losses and/or queen failure.


----------



## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

jmgi said:


> It would be interesting to know if there are beeks out there who run over 100 colonies treatment free year over year? I hope I'm wrong, but I can't imagine it, well ok, Michael Bush does it that I know of. I'm thinking the number has to be very low. John


Kirk Webster in VT: http://kirkwebster.com/. From his writings his best stock has been Russian though he still has some from SMR lines. Dee Lusby runs 700 colonies. I am sure there are others who quietly go about their business and don't treat.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It was pre Varroa when I had a small apiary (2 to 7 hives) But I seldom bought queens or bees. Once in a while I would buy a queen or get impatient and get a package to get back up in numbers. When Varroa hit I didn't really change that much, except at first, with large cell, I had 100% losses not treating. When I got to small cell they were more like 25% averaged out. Some really hard winters were 50% and some nicer ones were 10%. If you have 4 hives and you have 50% losses you still have two hives...

Granted, it's nice to have some numbers to work with... but even if you occasionally need to buy a queen or a nuc from some other treatment free beekeeper, you can manage most of the time with just 4 to 8 hives or so. Especially if you throw in a few nucs in addition...


----------



## ForrestB (May 26, 2013)

Tim Ives has annual loses of 8%, but he wrote that for the first several years he had very high losses. In any event, for a very long time he has only been catching swarms and doing cut outs and then breeding from survivors. He has also written (iirc) that the average losses in his club for those using treatments is close to 30%. It is worth mentioning that he leaves three deeps of honey and pollen for each hive in the fall and never feeds sugar. His strategy seems to be similar to that of Oscar Perone - large colonies, all stock from swarms (meaning they might be feral), and no feeding. Those that die, die, and those that survive are strong(er).


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> What are your thoughts on this? Does buying from an established treatment free beekeeper change the picture? How many hives do you need in order to create a sustainable apiary of treatment free bees?


Adam, these are great questions and ones in which I have some experience, having developed sustainable apiaries on two occasions.

How many do you need? There are phases we need to think about. At first, there is likely to be a higher loss rate, this is to be expected. So I'd suggest starting with as many as you can handle. However, these will not be full production hives. As I did the first time around, I started with 20 and then consolidated by attrition, not replacing losses, using the comb and boxes to augment the couple of more successful hives. I don't think you need 20, but it would be a trial by fire for sure. The lowest I got to was 6.

The second time around, I was working with already winnowed bees and moved to a new area. These had a lower loss rate than the originals, but still had some problems before they became acclimated to the climate. That time I was working with 7 and got down to 2. From two and adding a couple here and there and splitting, I maintained numbers. Eventually, I got better at increase and was able to do things like go from 10 to 40 in a year. Once the core population ceases to have major losses, I'd say you could again reduce your numbers to five on a continuous basis. Efficient increase is very important so find an efficient method and go with it. You won't need it forever. P.S. This was all without extra mite combat like brood breaks. 

Currently, I attempt to maintain 25 and produce nucs, queens, and honey. I currently have a bit of an excess due to cancelled orders, and I'm slowly combining and requeening. I've just had my first summer loss of the year. In the last year, that makes one winter, one spring, and one summer. It was due to failed requeening after a swarm.

In summary, start off ambitious, keep the smallest hives you can get away with in your area and catch swarms and split as much as you can, don't worry about honey. After a period of time as you get a feel for the bees you have and their resiliency grows, you can reduce numbers through attrition or combining to make bigger hives and honey. I recommend no less than five for any beekeeper or small group of beekeepers, a mini-cooperative.


----------



## LetMBee (Jan 4, 2012)

Adam. I think the number of colonies you must have is irrelevant. I run 30 + or - and my key is the use of swarm traps. I don't feed or treat and have had about 80% overwintering success the last three years. Not buying bees is the first step towards being treatment free. I live in eastern Indiana. There are feral bees out there surviving. They are treatment free stock and if you can catch them they are free.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I think you've already figured out the drawbacks of treatment free, northern non-migratory beekeeping. Yes you lost 27% in the winter. Replaceable but for all the fact that many of the remaining colonies were weak. 

Webster loses 40-60% of his bees every year but has enough nucleus colonies wintering in his apiaries to replace and re-queen his losses. It's not the bees, it's the management.


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> ...It's not the bees, it's the management.


At this point, I fully agree with you. The question from there is, _*is there a point where the balance moves from strength of management to strength of the bees?*_ That's the big one, as it's what everything hinges on.

If being treatment free means that you manage your way around weak bees forever, I guess it may help in marketing, but it's not what I'm looking for.

If being treatment free means that you have to manage your way around weak bees for a time until your bees begin to find a balance with the mites, then I'm all for it.

From where I sit, I'm not convinced that's what happens. I'm afraid that treatment free bees are never going to be as strong as treated bees - or at least in the foreseeable future (and yes I see the irony there). And sadly, like almost anything in beekeeping I feel that one has to try for one's self if you're going to "know" for your region and your approach.

I wish I could believe otherwise, and just pick a book to follow. Unfortunately for me, I still feel compelled to remain treatment free, and I feel like I'm standing at the bottom of a steep hill, with no summit in sight. 

Adam


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Michael Palmer said:


> It's not the bees, it's the management.


I hope Mike means that Webster's bees are weak and not that it's all bees that are week, else by implication he's calling me an excellent beekeeper and that sort of bold accusation just won't stand around here. :lpf:




Adam Foster Collins said:


> The question from there is, _*is there a point where the balance moves from strength of management to strength of the bees?*_ That's the big one, as it's what everything hinges on.
> 
> I feel like I'm standing at the bottom of a steep hill, with no summit in sight.


I can't speak to Webster's losses, and he isn't here speaking to them either. I can speak for myself. What I can say is that there is a summit. I'm about to post my summer update here in the next week or so, as soon as I am done extracting. Is there a summit in Nova Scotia, that I can't speak to as much, but I believe that it is there. You have hard conditions. It may take longer. You should get to the point where mites are incidentals, like ****roaches, but you probably don't have ****roaches either.

Then again maybe it is small cell like Michael Bush says. It works for both of us.


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> From where I sit, I'm not convinced that's what happens. I'm afraid that treatment free bees are never going to be as strong as treated bees - or at least in the foreseeable future


On the other hand, there's Tim Ives, whose bees appear to be stronger than most treated bees.

It may be that you have a particularly harsh environment. But I know one treatment free beekeeper in the North Country of northern NY who had 25% winter mortality. Is that good enough to call an operation sustainable? I would think so, since he also sells a few nucs in addition to making up losses.


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

rhaldridge said:


> On the other hand, there's Tim Ives, whose bees appear to be stronger than most treated bees... I know one treatment free beekeeper in the North Country of northern NY who had 25% winter mortality. Is that good enough to call an operation sustainable?...


What is the best place to find details on Tim Ives and his approach? 

Secondly, winter mortality is just a number and doesn't say much else. I have seen images of some of Mike Palmer's overwintered hives, and the strong ones are so strong, it looks tough to put a lid on them. They're practically exploding.

Mine are alive.

But there's a huge difference.

I have seen treated hives here as well, which are just brimming with bees in the spring and are very strong. The difference when bees have had the mites artificially removed is enormous. My bees survived, but not well enough to be able to really thrive through a slow spring. They just didn't have critical mass. I've got several nice colonies now, but it took them all summer to get that way. They're not going to produce any honey.

That's fine if it's all just a part of the process, but if this is what you're looking at year after year... Then I feel like I'm going to need a pretty fair number of nucs, and will have to continue to chase swarms and do cut-outs, or I just won't have that critical mass.

And how much time can I throw at the effort? (personal problem, I know, but a real one)

Adam


----------



## ForrestB (May 26, 2013)

"What is the best place to find details on Tim Ives and his approach?"

He is on here, but not very active. This is his profile - from here you can read everything he has written here, best to go to the threads and read in context: http://www.beesource.com/forums/member.php?94489-Tim-Ives

He also is on Facebook.

There are three videos of his on YouTube. 

Other than that, just scrounge the internet. You can piece together most of his strategies.

And yes, his colonies are much stronger than 99% of treated ones. 8% annual losses - and average harvest of about 200 lbs of honey per hive. No treatment, no feeding.


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> What is the best place to find details on Tim Ives and his approach?
> 
> Secondly, winter mortality is just a number and doesn't say much else. I have seen images of some of Mike Palmer's overwintered hives, and the strong ones are so strong, it looks tough to put a lid on them. They're practically exploding.
> 
> Adam


Adam, I'm just a beginner, so all I really know is what I read, and see online. But Tim Ives' hives are overwintered in 3 deeps, and they have bees spilling out of them in March. One of his videos shows him taking felt paper off his hives and it really is inspiring. 

As far as the amount of time put in, I get the impression most of Tim's time is spent supering and extracting. He doesn't treat, he doesn't feed, he makes increase from splits and swarms. As far as I know, he doesn't even raise queens-- his splits are of the simplest sort. I think he's said that his biggest challenge is having enough woodenware and comb.

In addition, his yards are in soy and corn country, so his bees are putting up with a lot of pesticides and herbicides.

Interesting stuff.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

ForrestB said:


> "What is the best place to find details on Tim Ives and his approach?"
> 
> He is on here, but not very active. This is his profile - from here you can read everything he has written here, best to go to the threads and read in context: http://www.beesource.com/forums/member.php?94489-Tim-Ives
> 
> ...



200# would be a bad year per supered hive. 

The amount of soybeans around this year, they could put that up from beans alone.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Michael Palmer said:


> I think you've already figured out the drawbacks of treatment free, northern non-migratory beekeeping. Yes you lost 27% in the winter. Replaceable but for all the fact that many of the remaining colonies were weak.
> 
> Webster loses 40-60% of his bees every year but has enough nucleus colonies wintering in his apiaries to replace and re-queen his losses. It's not the bees, it's the management.




The drawbacks are, never enough equipment....


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

tim, are you still getting a pretty strong nectar flow? is it just the soybeans?

the flow has slowed down considerably here.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> tim, are you still getting a pretty strong nectar flow? is it just the soybeans?
> 
> the flow has slowed down considerably here.


Beans won't be in bloom for another week or two. Still have clover in bloom (yellow sweet just started) alfalfa fields are getting cut down. Chicory blooming along the road sides and some type of a white aster just started blooming. 

Have 4 more yards to get the supers cleared and back on yet.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Also have 20 hives setting right on a peppermint field with full bloom spearmint across the road. This 90+ degree weather will get the peppermint blooming. First week on spearmint bloom hives averaged 1.5-2 supers.


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Tim,

Where would I go to find a summary of the way you do things? I'd like to know about your approach.

Adam


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> Tim,
> 
> Where would I go to find a summary of the way you do things? I'd like to know about your approach.
> 
> Adam


My FB page pics explains a lot....


----------



## ForrestB (May 26, 2013)

Tim Ives said:


> 200# would be a bad year per supered hive.
> 
> The amount of soybeans around this year, they could put that up from beans alone.


Yeah, I live in Spain and have been talking about your methods to some friends, and I always say "almost 200 kilos" - If I recall correctly the average figure was FOUR hundred pounds - so that is where I got the figure 200 from, but confused kilos and pounds. 

Thanks for all the information you share.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Pre 2010 I wasn't supering till a week before Black locust bloom. Problem with doing that was the overwintered triples was swarming starting 4-27. 16 days to make queens, bees decided they're out of room 4/11. So I started supering well before that date. 
3 deep system has around 300% more bees vs the 2 deep systems. Triples start brooding up earlier vs doubles and queen has 50% more room. Triples start brooding up earlier because they have the resources to do so. Doubles are on the verge of starvation and had to wait till resources start coming in.
300% more bees equates to 30 frames of brood more from 2/20-4/27. Triples average 18 frames of brood per 21 day cycle doubles average 12 frames per 21 day cycle. So the extra cycle(18 frames) next 2 cycles 18 vs 12= 6 difference twice equals 30 frames of more brood. 30 frames of brood = 60 frames of bees. Which is why you HAVE to more than double their space with supering in order to keep them from wanting to swarm. 
Problem becomes equipment, mathematically impossible to have enough supers to contain every hive unless you borrowed supers. Anything you don't super gets split again. If you don't have equipment for splits, you forced to sell bees. 

The earlier brood cycle is all workers, drones brood isn't started till fresh pollen comes in. Bees are totally out jumping mites. Plus I suspect to cold for mites, average daily temp around that time is 33.1f according to past 5 year utility bill. Mitesneed the drone brood to be most prolific. Worker brood mites can only get 1 mature female out vs 4 in drone brood.
Any hive that gets split, gets turned into 3-4 splits. So again mite cycle broke. Then add you don't buy bees in 7 years. No new mite genetics coming in. Anyone around me with bees, has gotten splits or queens from me. 
Since splits are done as early as possible, weaker hives are split. NOT the strongest hives. Strongest hives are the ones producing the drones first, not the weaker ones. After a period of time your genetically increasing everything.


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Tim, do you raise your queens, or let your splits make their own?


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

rhaldridge said:


> Tim, do you raise your queens, or let your splits make their own?


Keeping them crowded, they make up their own. Just a matter of timing on making splits then. If all hives are fairly equal, all are close on making the swarm cells up. They're naturally doing so on their own and not stressed.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Queens are averaging around 5 years. If a queen fails to drop down in hyper-lay mode in late Feb. High probability she'll get superceded. I'll take boxes away and cull out old frames at this time. Add new boxes back when needed. I coukd easily requeen with sonething else. But then your eliminating multi-year survivor genetics.


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Tim Ives said:


> My FB page pics explains a lot....


I went through all the pics and videos I could find. I got:

• No treatments
• No sugar
• 3 Deeps for brood nest and wintering
• No Treatments
• Swarms and cut-outs

Is that pretty much it?

Adam


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Tim, could you expand a little on your approach to rotating out frames? How long do your frames stay in service? Do you only rotate out brood frames or do you also cull honey frames?


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Adam, pretty much as simple as that..

Ray, I just cull brood frames whenever a hive supercede queen. The only chemicals that would be building up is from Ag usage. I know I have a few hives brood boxes untouched from 07'. I just super them up each year.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Tim. Start a Tim Ives thread. Posting pics and videos is easy.

I checked out your FB page, great pics, but it wasn't as useful to me as a Beesource thread would be. Here you'll get questioned by all comers and the end result is a total understanding of your methods.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Tim. Start a Tim Ives thread. Posting pics and videos is easy.
> 
> I checked out your FB page, great pics, but it wasn't as useful to me as a Beesource thread would be. Here you'll get questioned by all comers and the end result is a total understanding of your methods.



I have no control eliminating negative people on here. FB I don't have to deal with them. Delete....


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Tim Ives said:


> Queens are averaging around 5 years.


that's amazing tim, especially given the amount of brood they are making in your triple deeps.

are your queens marked and color coded for the year?


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> that's amazing tim, especially given the amount of brood they are making in your triple deeps.
> 
> are your queens marked and color coded for the year?


Yes a lot are marked. New splits when checking for laying queen, is when I'll take the time to mark. Marked queens that swarm I'll double mark.


----------



## wissler (Jan 27, 2012)

Tim, you may have addressed this in prior posts, but what if any foundation are you using? Are your hives regressed to small cell? 
I've got 9 hives, 4 of which are in 3-4 deeps. Trying to get recent swarm catches and this spring's splits built up into 2-3 deep before winter.
All on small cell full sheets or starter strips.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

wissler said:


> Tim, you may have addressed this in prior posts, but what if any foundation are you using? Are your hives regressed to small cell?
> I've got 9 hives, 4 of which are in 3-4 deeps. Trying to get recent swarm catches and this spring's splits built up into 2-3 deep before winter.
> All on small cell full sheets or starter strips.


I started off on wax foundation. I like using wood frame/plastic the best. I've been hoarding all my wax which I was going to get rendered into foundation. But you don't get your wax back do so. I know my wax is pure, I don't want unknown wax. 
I reapply my wax to plastic. 

I don't use 4.9, don't kniw anyone around here that does.


----------



## CtyAcres (Apr 8, 2012)

Tim- Thanks for taking your valuable time to educate people!


----------



## wissler (Jan 27, 2012)

Thanks Tim. Good thoughts and now you've got me rethinking even the use of starter strips. Plastic would help with the extracting and support issues using my own wax. I'm still building up here in N. Tx. The bees here don't seem to mind the SC. The last package I bought in 2011 had a few problems drawing it out, but noticed the swarms and splits now seem to draw it out just fine. Just starting out I figured more bees per frame, strong hives (not single deeps) equal less problems with pests and over wintering. So far it seems to be working.


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Tim's method is interesting. Sounds like a great system. One of these days I hope to be as sucessful. 

I have had pretty good luck, but don't do anything particularly special in my opinion and not sure my efforts would be worth emulating.
I have been more or less treatment free from the start - four/five years back. The only real "treatment" you could say I do is using cedar wood/juniper for my smoke smoke and adding a tablespoon of apple cider vinegar to winter feed.

I started with two carniolan hives about 5 years ago. A bear got one, the other went laying worker. I gave up on the domestic bees (too expensive to replace), so I started catching swarms and doing removals. The very first hive I ever cut out and brought home is still going strong to this day. No feeding/ no treating - nada. Strong as an ox and make a ton of honey. I have twenty one other hives at this point, most of which are either splits off my original hives or other removals I have done. I usually requeen my removals with a variety of open mated queen I have been raising here in the mountains or use a locally derived queen from other producers in the region (though I did inherit 4 hives of Beeweavers). In summary, most of my bees would be considered feral hybrids or survivor bees.

My oldest queen is three and 1/2 years. I use her to breed most of my replacement queens - open mated with the locals at 7000' here in the mountains. Sort of a dark strain with a lot of russian/carnie influence and open mated with the ferals in my region. Very mite resistant in my opinion, as I have watched them groom mites from each other. They are pretty similar to carnies in most other respects. I also have some local Italians/Cordovans I use mostly in the desert. The jury is still out on them, and the Beeweavers (that I got in a trade). 

I also keep the local feral hives I remove if they do not show African traits. Like I mentioned before, my first is still going strong after all these years with very little feed or anything else other than swarm control. they can be a little fiesty, but they are good and hardy bees. I have three others but none are as old, mostly because they are still getting established.

I have only ever lost 1 hive outright (due to freeze-out/dead queen) except for bears, and mites do not seem to be an issue at all. I have just reached the point where I have enough mature hives to actually make a decent honey crop.

My basic model has been to split my non-producing hives into nucs to restart the operation for the next season. I always have nuclues hives waiting in the wings to make up the next seasons producing hives. I also have incoming removals (if they have decent traits) to make up for lack of diversity in genetic pool. My hives don't seem to get productive until the second season, then after that I have noticed they drop a bit and I usually split them up. 

I was using double deeps and recently switched to single deeps with a medium super since they usually only fill half a top deep with brood and the rest honey. They seem to swarm less and I get better honey off the deep and a half set-up. You can overwinter here with a single deep if you are careful. I also run foundationless hives. I have a few that use wax starter strips, but most are simply wedges turned sideways. When I first started, I got small cell PF-105 plastic frames, but the bees hate them and I have largely replaced them in my hives with other frames. Now, I DO run wooden framed Rite-Cell frames in some of my honey supers. I also run foundationless for cut comb. the Rite Cell is mostly to get them to move up or keep the comb straight.

Like I said, nothing special, just a lot of splitting and nuc making with survivor type bees. Works for me - but then again, mites are not a huge issue here in New Mexico nor are small hive beetles and the usual bee pests. our biggest issues are the dry heat, varmints, lack of water, and lack of forage for bees. We can't run as many hives as elsewhere unless you want to migrate your bees with the ag crops - which I do not do. I mostly leave them in the mesquite down in the desert.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Very interesting Paul. Always fascinating to see how somebody does it in an environment so different to mine.


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Our environment is very different from even most of the USA, and we are quite remote. A strange mix of cold, hot, and very dry at really high elevation. We have mites and parasites, but they have never been prevalent here to my understanding. Not sure if it is because our bees are somewhat different having a mix of genetic types (including several African types) or if it is the remoteness that allowed the bees to develop resistance in measured doses.

I am not sure my methods of beekeeping would work elsewhere. I don't have SHB and a lot of the other stuff found everywhere else. I know a couple of other beekeepers down at lower elevations who do have some issues with mites but they also do migratory beekeeping. It is my belief that hive density plays a part too. You cannot expect to have hundreds of hives placed together and not expect to have problems. It seems there is a tipping point as far as size goes, where treatment-free becomes less of an option.


----------



## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Paul, that's very interesting stuff. You live in one of my favorite parts of the world. I spent much of my childhood in El Paso, and whenever we had a chance to take a little trip we went north to Alamogordo and Ruidoso. Beautiful area. I felt happy anytime I was north of Las Cruces.

How do your results compare with other local beekeepers who use different management techniques?


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I cannot say - I get by just fine. I have not compared my results with others much. I will say, this area is one of the few places where you can stick your bees on mesquite and get basically ONLY mesquite. Not many places like that left as the mesquites get bulldozed for houses.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Paul McCarty- sounds like your off to a good start. Being a lot further south I can see smaller hive systems being easier to overwinter. Back in 2009/10 winter I experimented with colony sizes. Went into winter with 25 1deep/1med.super and 65 triples. Lost 21 of the 25 1.5 systems and only lost 3 of the 65 triples. The 1.5 was lost 2nd-3rd week of Feb. Interestingly the 4 survivor 1.5, I used tires for the hive stands. I think the radiant heat from tires helped them pull thru. Once I started losing the other 1.5, I took resources from others and put onto the other 4.
Doubles systems fair better, but still occur around 30% losses on them.
But it becomes a numbers game then. 30 doubles into winter equals 60 hive bodies or 20 triples equal 60 hive bodies. If you occur 30% loss on the doubles, put resources from deadouts on early to survivors. Not a whole lot difference from a overwintered triple. Maybe a half brood cycle difference.I've been averaging 8% losses on triples, 8% of 20 would be about 2 hives. 
Not adding the 3 rd deep to the doubles is a huge difference in brood. Which makes a huge difference in honey production.

Its all a numbers game... What are maximum limitation? The number of frames a queen can lay out in a brood cycle. How much wax can a hive draw out in a season. What's the maximum efficient systems. Commercial pollinators have the point of logistics, they get paid for X size hives and can put X amount on a rig. To be running triples around, NOT feasible when you can turn a triple into 3 hives that you can get paid for. One problem I see is pollinators run the most hive counts in any state bee association. Xcompany has 1000+ hives and this is the way they do it.


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Wintering here is different - that's for sure. It can be -30 for a week and then 50 after that. You never know. The Summer is just about as bad. It can be 80 and then dip down to freezing at night. 115 is not out of the question during our hot season. Crazy desert temps. That being said, I don't lose a lot of hives to it. If I do, it is usually because the queen freezes getting caught out of cluster by the cold.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Tim Ives said:


> Xcompany has 1000+ hives and this is the way they do it.


That's a good point. You gotta do what works for you. I encourage hobbyists to avoid commercial methods simply for that fact that they are not commercial beekeepers. It seems like most beekeepers are using the double deep methods for stationary hives when double deep is well adapted for migratory operations. Triple deep (or equivalent) or more is far better for the stationary beekeeper, no need to move, large hives, less swarming, etc. 

We should start another thread on this. No need to muck up this one.


----------



## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Tim- In your 3 deeps, are they packed solid with stores?


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Try as I might, none of my hives ever get to 3 deeps on their own. They usually stop about 1 and a half and fill the rest with honey. Not sure if it is me or the bees causing this. If I want more brood chambers I usually have to combine. I got one up to four once, but it was from me combining them.


----------



## LetMBee (Jan 4, 2012)

Paul: I have been doing this since 2010. It typically takes my newly caught swarms 2 years to fully draw out 30 foundation less frames. By the end of the second year I will get several mediums woth of honey. I leave the bees the bottom three deeps. Usually the top one and some of the second one are filled with honey and the rest is where the other hive activities go on. 

I don't ever remember having three deeps be just the brood chamber in any of my hives.


----------



## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I see now - that sounds like what mine do. I thought you guys were getting three deeps of brood. I would imagine they keep a smaller hive here due to lack of resources.

I could not imagine any of my hives drawing 3 deeps of strictly brood. Like I said, I have combined them like that just to see how they did, but did not get much to show for it except a tower of bees. I have one hive right now that has a single deep brood chamber and is working on it's 3rd super of honey plus some comb honey rounds. May not sound like much to non desert beekeepers, but for where these girls are located it is absolutely amazing. They must be making honey from air.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

cg3 said:


> Tim- In your 3 deeps, are they packed solid with stores?


Hives start brooding down late July. 3 rd deep 95% honey/5% pollen, 2nd deep 40% honey10% pollen50& brood, bottom deep 20% honey 50-60% pollen-20-30% brood. By mid Oct almost no brood. Average 9-10 frames of bees.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

In 3 deep system, I'm seeing a 18 frame brood average, from late Feb till mid July.

Late April swarms will draw up 4 brand new hive bodies in the season. June swarms will be lucky to get into a 3 rd deep

I've shook swarm a couple complete tower hives (3deep/7 med supers) in early June this year. They drew up 3 deeps in 2 weeks.


----------



## Tim Ives (May 28, 2013)

Just so everyone is on same page, deeps 9 5/8" and supers 6 5/8"


----------

