# 2010 packages



## kbfarms

I'm picking up three packages this Saturday. I have a postal scale and will weigh them . They are coming in from GA also.


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## StevenG

Wow...sounds like the packager did a number both on you, and the one you bought the package from. And if you know the original packager, of course they don't get any more of your business. Care to share that information with us?


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## beemandan

I noticed that a couple of years ago Hardeman's in Mt Vernon, GA made a note in their ads that #3 package was not a reference to weight but referred to a 'number 3' package. In their old ads they clearly said 3lb. Its a bit sneaky.
When package suppliers fill them in the field, they don't weigh them. No way they're gonna carry scales out into the beeyards. They have a point in the package that they fill to and trust that it is the appropriate weight....whatever that might be.


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## Beeslave

The good package makers do use a scale and they weigh every package as they are made. The good ones also use excluders to eliminate drones and rogue queens that get missed that will kill the caged queen. Document your weights and send a bill to the supplier(package producer).

If a 3 lbs package sells for $60.00
The queen was $15.00
The cage was $5.00(new)
Syrup can/labor to fill/etc was $10.00
You are paying $10.00 per lb of bees

If the package producer underweighted all packages with that average(25%)
then for every 500 3 lb packages he recieved $3,750 for selling something he didn't. 

To me that's theft. Post the package producers name so others can check their packages also. A scale can go bad. If it does the supplier should have no problem reimbursing those that were shorted.

There is also the possibility that you were shorted by the reseller of the packages. They could have purchased 2 lbs packages and sold them as 3 lbs. When the packages were sent from the supplier to the reseller there could have been an issue where the wrong size were sent.


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## beemandan

Beeslave said:


> The good package makers do use a scale and they weigh every package as they are made. The good ones also use excluders


I've seen the crews of a couple of big, reputable package producers at work. They didn't have a scale but filled the packages to a point that they knew, from experience, would meet the weight spec. And I never saw an excluder. If they'd used an excluder in the funnels they were shaking bees into, the bottleneck would've killed more bees than would have gotten past. To be honest, I don't ever remember a package of bees without some drones.


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## Beeslave

Maybe the package producer I worked with was to picky. He didn't shake the bees off individual frames. The young bees were forced up through an excluder while the older field bees were out working. That ensured that the package bees were young and most all drones were eliminated except the ones that landed on the funnel while packages were being made. He also weighed every package as they were made. If you sell by the lb you should be weighing every package empty and then full. I know alot of producers don't weigh each package but I think they should.


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## Tom G. Laury

That's how they do it out here in California. No drones no queens no older bees. The bees are weighed with a balance set for the tare weight of the package cages. Package bees with a fresh queen from a top tier producer is cheaper than making your own divides. And you can get them by the truckload in early April. Sounds to me like these were 2lb packages to begin with.


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## beemandan

Beeslave said:


> If you sell by the lb you should be weighing every package empty and then full. I know alot of producers don't weigh each package but I think they should.


I won't argue with that. Which takes me back to the Hardemans. I don't know if they qualify as one of the 'better' package producers or not. But...they no longer sell by weight...which from their ads seems a bit tricky to me.


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## Batman

Agreed with I think they shipped 2# packages, not 3#s. Either that or the post office is skimming bees off the top for their side business. There is a bee thing going on in Orland this weekend. Even with catching the swarms I have gotten, I still want a package. Packages will be $73 and change this weekend up there, if I go, I might just come home with one regardless. They are advertised at 3# packages, If I get one, I will weigh it. Bottom line is I wouldn't use that supplier ever again if they don't compensate you some how. 15 packages with an average of 1# short each? Better kick me down some cash or send me 7 more 2# packages.

Craig


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## Alf57

UPDATE
Yesterday afternoon, I talked with the owner of the package producer. First, he said 3# of bees could loose a substantial amount of weight from the time of packaging until they are hived, even though they have have a can of syrup (that in most cases was not completely used up.) He also said that live bees weigh more than dead bees, allthough I had told him that the packages were healthy with very few dead bees. He did not really respond when I asked him if they could loose over one pound of weight from not being gorged with water or nectar.
His next point; he told me that the carrier took 40 or so-2# packages installed in 3# cages (they appparently are out of 2 # cages) for a special order along with the 500-3# packages and he must have given my supplier the 2# packages accidentally. Now both he and the carrier claimed that these 2# packages were clearly marked (I believe he said with a red # 2 on them.) My packages had no distingushing marks on them. 
His next retort was that he could not guarantee that the carrier or my supplier had not shook the packages and skimmed off some bees for themselves. As far as I can tell these packages have not been tampered with. When I removed the plywood lids, many times the staples would pull through. I did not notice any marks on the top of the cages from prybars and I did not notice any additional staple holes. If someone stole bees from these packages, they were really good at covering up their butts. 
Finally, he told me that he always sends additional packages and queens with his order and I really did not reason to talk to him. My problem was simply with my supplier. He started to get a little annoyed and the conversation was ended.

When I first reported the problem, my supplier said "go ahead split the packages in half, add a queen. They will build up by August." I told him that in the past four years, June was my predominant honey month. If I miss it, I may not get any honey at all. Personally, I don't want to spend money on a small nuc that won't make honey and have to baby through the winter.

Some would like to know the names of the parties involved. Personally, I am hoping and waiting to see if these businesses will own up to their responsibilities and make good on their promises. I agree, that if this matter is not resolved to my satisfaction, I will never order from these businesses again. I started this thread to warn others to check and to make sure you are getting what you pay for.


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## StevenG

hmmmm sounds like only the package maker, or your supplier, knows who got to you, and neither is owning up to it. Good luck, but sounds like you've hit a dead end. Bummer.


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## JPK

If you don't get satisfaction and purchased with a credit card then see if you have any buyers protection coverage.

I purchased a number of packages this year with a card that covers damage due during shipping as a little extra insurance.


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## Hampton

If you really want to warm beekeepers then who did you buy from and who produced the packages?


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## Mike Snodgrass

The bottom line is...if you announce who it was, the GUILTY partys will threaten the web site and they will be forced to pull this thread! Seen it before! If you tell everyone who shows interest by responding on this thread by e-mail, it might make a diffrence to a few. The bottom line is that those that steal dont stop untill their in jail or in gods hands!!!


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## beekeeper1756

Alf57,

POST THE NAME OF THE PACKAGE PRODUCER AND THE CARRIER!!!

They are totally not owning up to their end of the deal. They advertise a 3 lb package. Please tell me the names of the companies involved so I will never be taken advantage of as you clearly were.

Please, tell us the names.

Beekeeper1756


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## Alf57

My intent is to not trash the producer, but to warn all that there is a possibility that we as the consumer may not be receiving what we pay for. I guarantee that when we order supplies from a woodenware producer, we check to make sure all was shipped and if shorted, we quickly get on the phone to let get it shipped. But when it comes to packages, along as the bees are healthy, we accept that they are what we ordered. In my case, a 3#package with almost 1# short, could build up a few weeks slower and I could easily miss the honey flow. 
I started this thread to "let the buyer beware." Hopefully we all will check our packages. Let's hold our producers accountable. Let them know when we are satisfied and when they come up short. Possibly this thread could turn into a positive thread as we let others know the producers who are shipping a quality package. As I said in my first post, this weekend, I will be getting packages from another producer. I will let you know how they measure up.
Al


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## NDnewbeek

Mike Snodgrass said:


> The bottom line is...if you announce who it was, the GUILTY partys will threaten the web site and they will be forced to pull this thread! Seen it before! If you tell everyone who shows interest by responding on this thread by e-mail, it might make a diffrence to a few. The bottom line is that those that steal dont stop untill their in jail or in gods hands!!!


Really? I have been on the forum a while - and it least in the 'Consumer Reports' section, I have seen suppliers and producers get completely trashed in reviews - and haven't seen any repercussions such as that (search "Long Creek" or "Cedar Glen" for example). 

Why not move this thread to Consumer Reports and post your dissatisfaction with the package supplier (as many others have done in a similar fashion)? I, for one, would like to know who the supplier is, if for no other reason - to check the weight of packages if I happened to order from them this year.


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## Yuleluder

Yeah, who is the supplier? It seems completely ridiculous to make a big deal about the packages being light without identifying the package producer and the supplier. Please fill us in...


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## NDnewbeek

Additionally, by not naming the single, supplier with whom there could be a problem AND by simply stating that everyone should be checking all packages for weight implies that ALL suppliers are potentially shorting packages.

Why tar and feather the whole group? How can I reward the good suppliers with my business if I don't know who to avoid first? And why should suppliers take the extra time and expense to make sure their packages are the proper weight if they know that, even if caught, they won't be identified?

Last year, I got two packages through Long Lane (packages came from Gardner's Apiary). While Long Lane's service was great, the packages were, quite simply, terrible. The queens both failed before the middle summer and the packages never even made it to winter. I don't know why - maybe I was just unlucky, or maybe they really were poor due to the suppliers practices. Either way, I posted my experience. Others posted good experiences with Long Lane packages. Forum members can decide for themselves whether they want to try Long Lane for packages or not. That is the point of the Forum - dissemination of information so that fellow beekeepers can make good, informed decisions. Nobody threatened to sue, and in the best cases, suppliers have, in the past, contacted Forum members and made attempts to right the situation.

If you withhold information - you defeat the purpose of the Forum. Some of us order hundreds of packages at a time. Are we to weight check each one in order to 'hold our producers accountable'?


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## be lote

one thang i learned a while back while buyin from adds is what the big words
give you them little bitty words take away.

sayin becareful aint helpin noone but them.


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## Alf57

Many on this forum wanted to know where I purchased my packages. Well I wanted to wait and compare my last packages with the Georgia packages that I had ordered from another vendor. The results are quite interesting and here are my findings;
My first order of packages were purchased and picked up, on April 9th, from Simpson's Bee Supply out of Danvile, Ohio. He had purchased his packages from Gardner's Apiaries/Spell Bee out of Baxley, Georgia. Those 15 packages ranged from a low of 1.95# to a high of 2.7# with an average of 2.29#.

My last 15 packages were purchased from Brushy Mountain Bee Farm and picked up at their new sales office in Pa. These 3# packages that I picked up on Saturday, April 17th, ranged from a low of 1.95# to a high of 2.4# and averaged 2.1#. Brushy Mtn also had purchased their packages from Gardner's. I have not had the opportunity to talk with Brushy Mountain yet (I did not finish installing the packages until after 6 this evening.) But I did talk with someone last Thursday and that is when they told me that their packages were coming from Gardner's. I will call tomorrow and see if they will help me resolve this problem. I will keep you posted.

I did check my scale with a 5# bag of sugar. It weighed 5.12# full and .10# empty (the bag). So, I do not believe my scale is off. Interestly enough, I gave a talk at local garden club today. One woman told me that she had purchased 2 packages from Simpson's, on April 9th. She had figured that her packages averaged a little less that 2.5 pounds.

Again, I ask you, how are your packages that you have purchased? 
Have you weighed them and are they close to the correct weight?

Are there any package producers who can substantiate that a 3# package will loose 1/3rd of its weight during shipping?


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## Mike Snodgrass

Somethings wrong here!!! Its an enclosed package..No bees are basically going to escape during transit. At least for the most part. Secondly a dead bee should weigh the same as a live bee right? The only thing thats going to weigh less after transit is the feeder less full of syrup and do we pay for the syrup as part of the 3 lbs package? Bees cant dehydrate that much after death just within several days to weigh significantly less dead than alive right? Seems to me everybody you have talked to on this other than here is basically saying dont believe your lieing eyes.....right?


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## Alf57

Mike,
When I weighed these packages, I carefully removed the lid, syrup can and queen cage. I quickly placed the lid back on the package. I then weighed, tared the scale to zero. I dumped the package. Then I would weigh the empty package and lid. The resulting negative number represents the total amount of bees in the package. A 3# package of bees should represent 3# of bees not 2.5# of bees plus the weight of the can. I will be honest, I was even weighing the dead bees and we still came up short.

I checked Gardner's ad in Bee Culture and it clearly says he sells 2 "POUND" and 3 "POUND" packages


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## Mike Snodgrass

Apparently .....not any more!! LOL!!!


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## The Honey Householder

Just think what you would have got if you order #2 packages. A queen and a handle hold of bees. More syrup then bees. 
I could see this coming since early March. Ga supplers having to buy truck loads of bees out of Ca., because the south was to cold and wet.
The bigger question: What is the queen like this year out of the south?????:scratch:


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## Alf57

So far, the first installation of queens have been accepted and laying. Yesterday, as I installed a package, I found 1 queen dead in the queen cage. I have to call and see if they will replace her.
As the season progresses, I will let you know how well the queens perform.
Al


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## NDnewbeek

I find two things interesting about these limited data:

1. While it suggests that suppliers might not weigh their packages carefully, it also suggests that the errors in weight may not confined to a single 'dishonest' supplier, but instead might be simply an accepted industry wide practice (although while the packages came from different distributors, they all were produced by Gardner's) - whether intentional or just the result of poor quality control (I suspect the latter).

and

2. This is another time (at least the third) that I have seen the name 'Gardner's Apiary' appear in association with a poor experience with packages. I received packages from them (through another distributor) last year and was very disappointed. I know of another beekeeper who was as well and now this thread. 

I am not sure what point #2 means, but you can be sure that in the future, I will be avoiding Gardner Apiary products!


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## cheezer32

I got a couple 4 pound packages from Simpsons this year, so it would be the same place. If I would have read this thread earlier I would have weighed them to find an exact weight. But from appearance, and after hiving them I am very pleased with the amount of bees that were in them. I would deffinatly say that I got the 4 pounds that i paid for, if not it was very close. Easily split a package into 2 hives, (buying an extra queen of course) with plenty of bees to go into each hive. The queens have been released and I will check on them in a week or so to see how they are laying, this is my first experience with packages from Simpsons so we will see what happens from here on out.


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## Alf57

I do not blame our local suppliers. At least I hope that they have not intentionally shipped undersized packages, knowingly. They are stuck in the middle, believing that the packers are honest and supplying a quality package. I have bought from Simpson's in the past and got great packages. Today I talked with Mr. Simpson and he is shipping me some California packages to make up the difference for Gardner's undersized packages. He is supplying these from his own pocket because Gardner refuses to take responsibility for his packages.
I still have not had a chance to talk to Brushy MTN to see if they will reconcile the undersized packages, that I received from them last Saturday.

Al


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## CentralPAguy

Alf,

I commend you for bringing this to our attention. I would have never thought that someone would be shorting bees in packages. I was to pick up bees yesterday, but thru miscommunication, it didn't happen. 

These bees were also from Gardners and I actually took a postal scale with me as I also wanted to know the weight of the 3 pound packages to see if I could confirm your experience.

However, I do have another 10 packages coming in next Wednesday and I will be ready for them as well. I do not know the supplier, but I will find out.

When you order 3 pound packages, you are expecting to receive approx 7,500 bees, not 5,500 to 6,000 bees

In the future, I will not be buying bees that come from Gardners, so this thread will affect their bottom line.


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## rainesridgefarm

a beekeeper just north of me purchased 500 3 lb packages from Gardners and they all were less then 2lbs. He was furious and so are the beeks he was selling them to. 

It was good to get this out and send them a message.


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## Beeslave

I know of a guy that brought 3 loads of packages from them to WI this year. I will have to call him ask how his were.

Sounds like down right theft to me.


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## NDnewbeek

As I previously stated, I got two packages from them last year (through another distributor). They both failed VERY quickly. I checked weekly and (according to my written records) after 3-4 weeks, they had dwindled to just a handful of bees left and a tiny bit of brood. They didn't abscond, they clearly just dwindled. At the time, I contributed it to bad luck and unproductive queens.

Now, I am wondering if another contributing factor might have been the 2000-2500 bees that were left out of each of the packages! There is no way to know now, but if Gardner's really does have a pattern of shorting packages, it makes me wonder how long it has been going on.

Thanks to Alf for initially checking weights and starting the thread.


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## The Honey Householder

Sound like it's starting to come out. (Package Gate). 
When a supplier shorts you in bees, just think what else he is shortcutting. Why would they care if they are selling you healthy bees, or queens. They only care about one thing and that is MONEY. 
The bottom line is bees are short and we all need them. Even with short-shake packages not everyone is going to get there bees this year. Every year it gets worse, which drives the price even higher. It's just like the supermarket. You are paying more for a smaller amount of produce.


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## Alf57

Yesterday, I recieved my replacement packages from Simpson's. They were California packages and they averaged around 1.8#. But these were sold as 2# packages, 10% underweight but at least acceptable.

After three days, I was finally was able to talk with Brushy Mountain. After I explained my case, the manager got back with me. I will be picking up replacement packages on May 8th. They will probably be from Gardner's. I wonder if he will still ship an undersized package?

Moral of the story; check all packages to see if there are any shortages, call and complain to the supplier (back up with facts), and hopefully as we tell our suppliers how dissatisfied we are with the quality of undersized packages, hopefuly they will demand from their package producers a good package that is up to size.

With the thousands of packages bought this spring, I am wondering are the other packers shipping a good package? 
If you bought from another supplier and weighed your package, let us know if you are satisfied or not. Hopefully we can start a list of good and bad packers.

Al


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## NDnewbeek

Received a 2lb package this morning from Carlton Simpson of Simpson Beekeeping Supply in Danville, Ohio. The package was shipped USPS Priority and arrived in North Dakota in good condition (maybe 100 dead bees on the bottom). The package originated in California, I believe with Koehnen.

The package weighed in at 5.25lbs. After installation, the empty package weighed in at 3.21lbs. 2.04lbs of bees. 

Well done - Simpson Beekeeping Supply and C.F. Koehnen :applause:


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## Tom G. Laury

If there is a better queen and package producer than CF Koehnen & sons, I would like to know who it is. In fact, if you know of an outfit that is equally good, I would like to know that too!


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## buddybee

Purchased 25 4lb packages with double queens. Had little dead loss and an avg weight of under 3lbs. Picked them up from Ebert Honey Company in Lynnville Iowa.

They are from CF Koehnen and Sons.

When I sent an e-mail to Ebert just to let them know, I got this reply "the time to complain is when you pick up the pkg."

Not sure how this is even legal.


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## CentralPAguy

buddybee said:


> Purchased 25 4lb packages with double queens. Had little dead loss and an avg weight of under 3lbs. Picked them up from Ebert Honey Company in Lynnville Iowa.
> 
> They are from CF Koehnen and Sons. When I sent an e-mail to Ebert just to let them know, I got this reply "the time to complain is when you pick up the pkg."


Wow. You wonder just how long this practice of shorting bees has been going on. 

I can't imagine anyone complaining when they pick up the packages -- You can't weigh the bees until you first hive them. Ridiculous, the response you got from Ebert -- I'm betting that the next time you need packages, you won't be getting them from Ebert -- I am wondering if you can contact Better Business Bureau and lodge a complaint.


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## NDnewbeek

buddybee said:


> When I sent an e-mail to Ebert just to let them know, I got this reply "the time to complain is when you pick up the pkg."


When I called Long Lane last year to let them know about the horrible performance of the packages they sent me (again, from Gardner's Apiaries), the response was similar:

I was told that packages these days were just generally poor and that if I was unhappy, I just shouldn't get them in the future! 

I couldn't believe it - The woman at Long Lane who took my call basically said - our product stinks, you should have known better and that they didn't care whether I purchased from them or not in the future. 

I was hoping that maybe they would send replacement queens or something, anything really as a token of good faith. What I got was essentially them saying, 'Hard cheese'.

Needless to say - they didn't make my short list for packages this year.


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## J-Bees

I can't imagine anyone complaining when they pick up the packages -- You can't weigh the bees until you first hive them. Ridiculous, the response you got from Ebert -- I'm betting that the next time you need packages, you won't be getting them from Ebert -- I am wondering if you can contact Better Business Bureau and lodge a complaint. 

:no:

JB:}


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## camero7

Tom G. Laury said:


> If there is a better queen and package producer than CF Koehnen & sons, I would like to know who it is. In fact, if you know of an outfit that is equally good, I would like to know that too!


I got 2 packages from Shamrock S [Shad Sullivan]. Excellent packages, just took off and are going strong. The bees were Australian I believe, the queens were his breeding [VSH/SMR] - comparing them to Gardner's [2 packages from them] there is no comparison. If the freight didn't kill me I'd order all my packages from him.


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## Alf57

It is great to see that we are starting to get an honest appraisal of the packages and the suppliers we deal with. Hopefully, we can develope a list of great dealers and packagers and the lousy dealers and packagers.

Here on Bee Souurce we have (Members: 10,853, Active Members: 2,474). Just think what an impact we could have on the packagers if we really start examining what they sell to us. It is time to consistantly let our supplier know our experiences good and bad.


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## NDnewbeek

Alf57 said:


> Hopefully, we can develop a list of great dealers and packagers and the lousy dealers and packagers.


I actually keep an extensive list of package suppliers (30+) and those who breed only queens (maybe another 30 or 40). Each winter, I collect prices (as they come out) and compute yearly averages. I also record my own experiences with the suppliers/queen breeders for my personal reference.

I make the list available to the forum every year.

Mike


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## CentralPAguy

Alf57 said:


> It is great to see that we are starting to get an honest appraisal of the packages and the suppliers we deal with. Hopefully, we can develope a list of great dealers and packagers and the lousy dealers and packagers.....Just think what an impact we could have on the packagers if we really start examining what they sell to us. It is time to consistantly let our supplier know our experiences good and bad.


Alf,

Very well said. Those that do good will prosper and those that don't won't. It makes sense for distributors to know their suppliers. If you want to get a reputation for shorting bees, then sell those from companies who may be making a practice of it. Common sense, don't let a supplier damage your hard earned business.

I have two shipments of 10 packages each coming in over the next two weeks and I will be weighing and reporting.


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## Countryboy

I started four 2 pound packages from Wilbanks on April 6th. An experienced beekeeper told me they were a heavy 2 pound package. (A little overweight.)

Here is how they looked after 18 days. I'll let you be the judge if they are good or bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzZXOjqh4fw


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## NDnewbeek

In the spirit of completing the dataset:

I received two - 3lb packages from Waldo Apiaries in Ohio yesterday (Russian hybrids). The packages came with very few dead on the bottom and REALLY good looking bees. 

They were a bit underweight (2.4lbs and 2.6lbs) - however, they weren't extremely underweight as with the Gardner's packages (0.5lb average under for Waldo's). 

In all, it would have been nice to see them break or get closer to 3.0lbs, but I wouldn't say that I was unhappy either.  All other service from Waldo's was excellent (notification, communication, etc.).


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## berkshire bee

*Re: 2010 packages Betterbee up to snuff*

I recieved 6 packages from Betterbee and for the sake of this thread, I weighed them all before and after installation to get the weight of the bees. The lightest was just 2 oz short of being 3 lbs, and it went from there up to almost 3lb 8 oz for the heaviest one. I believe they get theirs from Wilbanks. No shortage in weight here.


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## CentralPAguy

I got 10 packages and weighed five of them.

I only ordered 3 pounds of bees with a queen, but the weight of these bees ranged from 4 1/2 to 8 pounds. I know that it is crazy. But I used a Postal scale and weighed the full package box and then weighed the remaining can of syrup and then weighed the package container including the queen cage.
I rechecked the math and yes, that is the true actual weight of the bees that I received.

These bees were from H.R Apiary (formerly York Bee Co). These bees are probably the most gentle that I have in my various yards.

So if an apiary did you bad, then consider this one when purchasing future packages.


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## Tom G. Laury

PA, if you put 8lbs of bees in a 3lb pkg. they will suffocate.

Maybe that was 2 pkgs. Glad you got good weight.


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## CentralPAguy

I know that it sounds crazy doesn't it and I keep thinking that I read the postal scale wrong, but I had a witness with me, when I took the measurements.

Then I thought that my scale was wrong, but I then checked it when I got home and it is right on.

Is there a certain size box that is used for three pound packages. Maybe I got a bigger box than normal


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## Tom G. Laury

Yes the cage sizes are standardized and the bees in either a 2 or 3 lb will occupy roughly 2/3 of the cage interior when they are clustered,. 8 lbs of bees would not survive long in a 3lb cage, believe me. Check math. Again, I am glad you got good weight as I know that there are many conscientious q&pkg producers whose livelihood depends on the success of their customers.


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## CentralPAguy

Tom G. Laury said:


> Yes the cage sizes are standardized and the bees in either a 2 or 3 lb will occupy roughly 2/3 of the cage interior when they are clustered,. 8 lbs of bees would not survive long in a 3lb cage, believe me. Check math. Again, I am glad you got good weight as I know that there are many conscientious q&pkg producers whose livelihood depends on the success of their customers.


Let me ask you this question, can you feed the bees so that their weight doubles. I am still trying to make sense of my math. As you mentioned,they probably filled 2/3 to 3/4 of the interior.


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## Tom G. Laury

No. I bet you wrote down a 3 and it ended up looking like an 8 or something similar. Just drop that one since something is off. Looks like you got your moneys' worth though, doesn't it?


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## stump56

He may have added everything instead of subtracting that could have given the wrong answer.


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## The Honey Householder

I shake 8 lb packages, but they are in double 4 lb cages. COMB HONEY PRODUCTION packages.


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## SGebauer

Hi All,

I was/am concerned about the report of light packages, specifically those from Gardner's since they supply us. I was there Friday to pick up a load. This thread was a topic of conversation. I was told that more than 10% of the packages are checked for weight in the field. We also weighted several while I was waiting and all but one was 3# or more. The one that wasn't 3# was a whisker (technical term for an ounce or two) under 3. When selecting packages to weigh, I tried to hunt for the ones that appeared short. 

All that said, you should certainly get what you pay for, but the quality of the package is in the queen. The bees in the package need to be young and healthy to get the queen up and running but after about 2 months those bees are gone. The queen is the only one left from the package. Overall, I have been pleased with the queens this year. Those that I have installed have brooded up faster than most that I have installed in the past.

Cheers,
Shane
General Manager
Brushy Mtn Bee Farm


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## camero7

My two packages from Gardner's are building up well. If the packages were a little light I didn't really notice, but wasn't looking for that. It might be that Gardner's, aware of the thread, is now ensuring that their packages are up to weight. I am happy with the queens, even though the bees are a little on the aggressive side... I would buy from them again I think.


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## charmd2

Shane, thanks for taking the time to check them for us. It may be that the op's comments and the fact that this thread was known about has worked in our favor and packages are the correct size for awhile.


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## The Honey Householder

*Re: Package Gate*

The packages this time of the year better be heavy. I think short shaking happiens a lot early. By May you have more then enough bees being produced and the temps are up enough to do heavy shaking. 
A queens with 2 lbs. of bees build up slower then a queen with 3 lbs. That is why most buy 3 pounders.:doh:


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## Tom G. Laury

Like Shane said, the success of the package is mostly dependent on the quality of the queen, not how many lbs of bees.


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## Alf57

I agree that the success of of package is mainly due to the quality of the queen, but that does not negate the fact that 3# of bees was promised by the supplier and that was not provided. Obviously, with a quality queen, a 3# package has a larger workforce and will build up quicker than that same queen in a 2# package. Would anyone buy a 5-frame nuc with only 1-frame of eggs and the rest foundation if I promised that the queen was a quality queen. Obviously not, there are certain standards in this industry and we would not accept a 1-frame nuc as a 5-frame. Why should we, the beekeeping consumer, consistantly have to accept a substandard package. All in all, I purchased 36-3# packages from two different suppliers selling Gardner's bees. I weighed 30 of these packages and did not find a single package that was over 2.7 pounds and at least 4 were under 2#. Average weight was 2.2 pounds. 
If these package suppliers want to sell 2# packages, then scale down to all 2# cages and ship them. But what was advertised was not being sold and delivered. As I stated when I started this thread, my intent was to take 2-3# packages and a single queen and create 3-2 # splits. With the addition of a frame of brood and enough time, these colonies should have built up to produce a super or two of honey. But with the short packages, I was making a little over a 1# split instead of 2# and now I am afraid that these colonies may not build up to take advantage of my spring honey flow. 
My intent all along was to voice my dissatisfaction and let others know that we may have been not recieiving what we pay for, BUYER BEWARE. I hope that the suppliers are starting to pay attention. Hopefully because we are reporting our dissatisfaction to our suppliers, next spring when we weigh our packages we won't find any shortages. 
Al


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## beemandan

SGebauer said:


> We also weighted several while I was waiting and all but one was 3# or more.


If you don't mind me asking Shane, how did you do that? I can't imagine you zeroing several packages, dumping the bees, returning the syrup and queen and reweighing. Just hoping we're comparing apples to apples.


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## SGebauer

The scale was tared with an empty package. The construction of the packages is standardized so the weight of the empty packages will not vary significantly. At the time I was weighing the packages, the cans and queens were not yet installed. 

Regards,
Shane


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## beemaster01

As a producer of package bees and queen breeder, I feel that I must reply to this thread before it get out of hand. Bees, like humans vary in size and weight. For example, if the bees are shook out of the hive during a heavy honey flow, those bees are going to weigh more because they are more likely to be gorged with nectar. After the bees are caged, they digest the nectar and the weight goes down. Even if there isn't a heavy honey flow, the bees after caging will lose weight. That is because the feed can that is supplied with the package furnishes just enough feed to keep them from starving in shipment. So those bees are "on a diet" and lose weight. You could cage you own package and put exactly three pounds of bees in it with a standard feed can and after two or three days weigh those bees and I will guarantee that there will not be three pounds of bees. Bottom line, the longer bees are caged, the lighter they will be. It's a fact of life. We do shake our packages a little heavy to account for bees dying in transit but not to reflect the loss in weight in the mail. An earlier comment about a supplier furnishing a #3 package instead of a 3# packages reflects concern about legal issues concerning weight of the bees in the package. Maybe if we were to add a disclaimer much like hamburgers at fast food places which state that "weight is before cooking". We could say "three pounds of bees at the time the cage is filled" and all concerns would be addressed.


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## chrissv

Disclaimer: "Contents may settle during shipment" (like on my cereal boxes)


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## Countryboy

_For example, if the bees are shook out of the hive during a heavy honey flow, those bees are going to weigh more because they are more likely to be gorged with nectar._

We aren't weighing each bee individually. A pound is a pound. You're basically saying a pound of gold (bees gorged on nectar) weighs more than a pound of feathers.

_Even if there isn't a heavy honey flow, the bees after caging will lose weight. _

Where does that weight go? 

_That is because the feed can that is supplied with the package furnishes just enough feed to keep them from starving in shipment._

I've NEVER seen that. Every package I have ever seen had plenty of syrup to maintain the bees weight, not merely to prevent starvation. The packages I've seen, the bees were being fed so good they were producing wax.

_You could cage you own package and put exactly three pounds of bees in it with a standard feed can and after two or three days weigh those bees and I will guarantee that there will not be three pounds of bees. Bottom line, the longer bees are caged, the lighter they will be. _

The syrup can will be lighter. The sum total of bee weight should remain the same.


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## berkshire bee

Beemaster, this isn't aimed toward you personally, but, based on what you stated, it would seem that it would work that way across the board with all packages being short. My 3 lb packages from Wilbanks, I believe, via Betterbee, weighed in with four out of 6 being 3 lbs and over when I installed them. Two were 2 ounces under 3 lbs. I think the original poster has reason to be upset when a supposed 3 lb package weighs in at 1.9 lbs. Those bees would have lost more than a third of their original weight. Changing from calling a package a 3 lb package to a #3 package is just a sneaky way of not giving the customer what they expect and are paying for. I don't think we could get away with putting 11 oz of honey in each jar and selling them as one pounders, unless of course we just switch and call them #1 jars. Either a mistake was made and neither the packager or dealer want to own up to it, or someone is doing something funny.


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## beemaster01

The nectar is used to maintain the bodily functions of the bee. If you, a human, weighs yourself and then eat a very big meal, would you not weigh more? Then after your body burns the food your body weight would return to the previous weight. The excess in a bee package is lost by water vapor. The size of the openings in can of feed provided in a package is a very delicate balance between being too and too small. If they are too big, the bees consume all the feed before they get to the customer and starve or the handling in shipment causes the syrup to spill out. If the openings are too small, there will be syrup left in the can but you will have excess losses due to starvation. After 32 years shipping packages, we have made both mistakes. 

Another variation in weight could be the way the packages are filled. Very few package companies weigh every package. Is that wrong? That depends on how accurate the final weight of the bees ends up. Beekeepers can demand that every package be weighed. However, the extra labor involved would increase the cost of the package. It is a fact of life that extra labor will be passed on to the customer. I have actually weighed our three pound package after three day and found that the 3 1/4 pounds of bees actually weighed between 2 pounds 6 ounces and 2 pounds 12 ounces. Yes, I do agree that a package should not lose a third of its weight in shipment. I am just pointing out that a package that is short when its arrives could have been correct when it was shipped.

The danger in this thread is that someone will determine they were cheated if the weight wasn't correct without taking into account how much short it was. That is just human nature.


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## NDnewbeek

beemaster01 said:


> The nectar is used to maintain the bodily functions of the bee. If you, a human, weighs yourself and then eat a very big meal, would you not weigh more? Then after your body burns the food your body weight would return to the previous weight.


Yes, but then the bees should maintain their weight until the syrup can is empty (as they are continually replacing that which is burned off). I have never received a package with an empty can, don't know about others though.




beemaster01 said:


> Yes, I do agree that a package should not lose a third of its weight in shipment. I am just pointing out that a package that is short when its arrives could have been correct when it was shipped.


I think that your points are valid for explaining SOME small amount (maybe 1/2lb?) of weight loss during shipment - but when a package comes almost 1/2 as light as it was supposed to - that can't be explained by bee physiology.



beemaster01 said:


> The danger in this thread is that someone will determine they were cheated if the weight wasn't correct without taking into account how much short it was.


I posted earlier that my packages from Waldo were 1/2lb underweight (average). I don't think George cheated me (and said as much in my post) - I consider that within acceptable limits for a 3lb package of a biological product.

Now if my packages came in at over a pound light - well, what should I think if not that perhaps someone is cutting corners on my dime?

I think that is the real value of this thread along with alerting the bee package consuming public to double check their package weights. Nothing wrong with that. There are enough experienced members here (I think) who understand the variability in purchasing live product. For those who don't, that is what the experienced members are for!


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## JPK

Anyone else finding out that Hardeman is about 3-4 weeks behind in shipping?


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## Gabeeboy

That's what I was told by them. I'm picking mine up. My pickup date was April 14th I have called them half a dozen times to find out when I might get my bees and I have not received an answer yet. I've been told twice that I would be called back with some info, but that hasn't happened either.

I'm starting to get a little frustrated!

JN


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## Mark in Kansas

Sure, you can shave things a little bit, put 1/2 lb less bees in each package and after five packages you've got another for "free." Some might say, "caveat emptor," let the buyer beware, but the buyer can bite back too.

Let's hope this thread puts those who might be cutting corners a little bit on notice that people will be watching and weighing their packages and suppliers might better err on the side of a few more bees than less.

Folks on Beesource SHOULD be proactive to reward honest package suppliers who give 3 lbs of bees in a 3 lb package, and SHOULD name names on those who cut corners so they can be honestly punished by the free market.


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## [email protected]

I thought that I would jump into the raging fire about package bees this Spring. I have been a retailer of package bees for Wilbanks Apiaries in Claxton, Georgia for 11 years. This Monday we picked up our second load of 3lb packages to be distributed in the Northeast. Naturaly, the topic of light package weights came up. While Wilbanks does not weigh each package in the field, they use a predetermined level on the cage that has constantly yeilded over three pounds of bees and most generaly they aim for about 3 1/4 lbs of bees. The reason that I say this is not to try to get free advertisment but to point out that the Georgia package bee industry has had a long time reputatiion for both Quality and Integrity. During my long conversation with Reg Wilbanks, he pointed out that many of the posts here paint "Georgia " producers with the same brush as a few unscrupulous companies who take advantage of a shortage of bees to try for a quick buck. This is unfair! I hope that people with a ligitmate complaint will " out " the offenders so next time anyone wanting to order bees will be able to steer clear of the bad eggs. Remember that many of us rely on Southern package producers to replace our winter losses and this years increases.


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## The Honey Householder

Wilbanks rocks! 
I've been using them as a supplier for 16+ years. 
Wilbanks only has a few distributors in the north. 
Last year my 2 lb packages I bought fom them in March was almost 3 pounders. Reggie said better in packages then in the trees. 
Great queen supplier too.
I wouldn't USE or SELL bees from a supplier that couldn't back there product.
WILBANKS :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Beeslave

Adam

The bad apple was pointed out in a previous post. It isn't Georgia producers being slandered.


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## Lonesome Polecat

JPK said:


> Anyone else finding out that Hardeman is about 3-4 weeks behind in shipping?


Yes..........I just talked to them. I was originally scheduled for shipment on 4/19. Now being told they will ship on 5/18 or 5/19.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees

I got two packages this spring through a supplier that got them from gardners. I noticed very few dead bees in the package, a lot of drones, and the package was more than 2/3 full. I didn't weigh them though. The bees have done well. I agree with a previous post about the queens being aggressive. One of the packages I can work without gloves or anything other than a veil the second package you better suit up. I would get bees from them again but after reading this post I will weigh every package before I leave the supplier. I understand some weight loss due to water evaporation is understandable, but loosing 1/3 of weight is a load of crap! The poster clearly has gotten ripped off. Commercial beekeepers that are making money off of cheating their customers will not be in business for very long. Bottom line, give me what I paid for and good customer service and you will continue to get ALL my business. I am glad to see Brushy Mountain responding on here to customer complaints.

-Dan


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## [email protected]

Brushey Mountian is learning that the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. Prior to Gardner / Spell, they had a great supplier and decided to sever that relationship. I believe that move has cost them a lot of money.


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## Nephidoc

Utah.

I've purchased bees from http://www.knightfamilyhoney.com/ for the last 2 years.
Last year the bees were great almost all alive and did fantastic.
This year 1/2-1/3 of the packages were dead bees.
Of the 4 hives I started this year one has gone queenless already.

Stan


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## kathygibson

I just picked up a 3# package from AZApiaries in Ct. I think the bees came from Gardners in GA. Bees looked great. I weighed them with a digital scale...after subtracting for box and can...they weighed 3.1#!!!!!


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## [email protected]

Kathy, Thanks for the positive feed back. To clarify things, the bees came from Wilbanks in Claxton Georgia.


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## kathygibson

[email protected] said:


> Kathy, Thanks for the positive feed back. To clarify things, the bees came from Wilbanks in Claxton Georgia.


NP...thanks for clarifying the GA provider.


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## honeybee1

I spent several hours last night reading this and then spent several hours registering for this site. I must say that the internet is both the best thing and the worst thing ever for all of us. What I mean is, this package problem could have been handled privately rather than trashing a company that keeps most of us in the bee bizzness. Mike Gardner and his staff are turning out bees when no one else can. They keep bees healthy and alive when no one else can. I have logged many hours with them in the field and in the shop and all I ever see is hard working people doing every thing they can to give each and every customer the very best product they can and they won't let you leave without making sure your load is good for the trip oh and they make sure you get your free ones before you leave. With all that said. When the carrier leaves his driveway they are no longer his bees they are the carriers. If your carrier has a flat and the bees die or he stops to sleep or he lets the packages set for a day or in some cases I know of people that ship may let them sit for many days before they are shipped you just can't blame that on Mike Gardner. You have to blame it on the carrier. Your carrier left with 2lb packages period that was on a previous posting. Your carrier screwed up. If your carrier left with under weight packages it's his fault period. I don't see anyone complaining about packages when they are over weight which thats really what happens most of the time it all evens out in the bee yard. You recieved 2lb packages and you should have gotten 3lb you should handle this with the carrier and if the carrier had of admitted the mistake Spell Bee would have most likely helped him out of his fickle after all thats what they are doing for all of us lets admit it when you need bees gardner apiaries has bees however I predict this unprofessional way of handling this situation is going to cost all of us more money next year because every package company in the US will weigh each one and charge us through the nose. I would be proud as punch to be the beekeeper he is and have the customers base he has. Mike would never cheat anyone it's just not in his track record and his reputation is unreproachable.


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## beemandan

honeybee1 said:


> then spent several hours registering for this site.


?????


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## Beeslave

With the proper setup, which is easy to build and run, it is very easy to weigh each and every package as they are being made. If you are selling a product by weight then that said product should be packaged using a device that properly checks that weight.


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## [email protected]

I'm Just wondering if the carrier is the one filling the packages? Sounds like the problem in the Gulf of Mexico. Every one involved is pointing the finger at the other guy.


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## honeybee1

The point is the 2lb packages weighed 2lb and the 3lb packages were right too. The handler must have given out the 2lb packages by mistake I just don't see how that is Spells fault they can't follow every truck to see if the handler hands out the packages correctly at the point of delivery. I don't know of any honeybee packaging company that would short you on purpose they all take to much pride in what they do. This was a simple mistake and should be handled as such.


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## JPK

honeybee1 said:


> The point is the 2lb packages weighed 2lb and the 3lb packages were right too. The handler must have given out the 2lb packages by mistake I just don't see how that is Spells fault they can't follow every truck to see if the handler hands out the packages correctly at the point of delivery. I don't know of any honeybee packaging company that would short you on purpose they all take to much pride in what they do. This was a simple mistake and should be handled as such.


If you've read the entire thread thus far you would have seen that the complaint is primarily with suppliers that provided underweight packages and when the customer attempted to remedy the situation directly with the supplier they were effectively told that was tough, if they didn't like it to go somewhere else.

This forum is the Consumer Report forum and as such its a perfectly valid and appropriate place for customers to voice their experiences with good and bad vendors.

Any vendor that feels like they were slighted by a poster is free to post a retort.


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## honeybee1

which makes sense to me because they had no way of knowing what happened after the bees left thier driveway.


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## jrhoto

I picked up bees from Spell Bee the 1st of may and when i returned home 
with them i weighed each package before i handed them out.Ican say that
every package both 2lb and 3lb had more bees than the supposed 2and 3 
pounds.I have never had anything but great service and great bees from
these people and i say the are some of the finest people in the business. I
wish all people were as easy to deal with,Mike Gardner keep up the good work.
Poor Valley Bee Farm


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## honeybee1

amen.


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## Alf57

I have quick question. Can anyone point to any specific research that can show how much weight a package of bees will loose while confined in a cage? 
Al


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## JPK

With a can of syrup the bees themselves should not lose any weight, its not as if the bees themselves will become dehydrated.

The overall mass of the package will decrease with loss of moisture from respiration

If you weight the package before hiving then weight the package and assorted bits AFTER hiving you should have a reduction in weight of ~3#'s.


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## Guest

the fact remains that a proudcer was drawn ,quorterd,burnt at the stake,for what?clearly not the guilty party. thoes so quick to judge need to also be as quick to admit and repair their damages!


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## beemandan

1beeman said:


> the fact remains that a proudcer was drawn ,quorterd,burnt at the stake,for what?clearly not the guilty party. thoes so quick to judge need to also be as quick to admit and repair their damages!





Alf57 said:


> Now both he and the carrier claimed that these 2# packages were clearly marked (I believe he said with a red # 2 on them.) My packages had no distingushing marks on them.


1beeman....were those 2# packages marked? If so, there still may be plenty of guilt to share.


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## Guest

At least the seperating row in black, from their not shure what they may have dun in red


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## [email protected]

Wow, The plot thickens. I think that it is time to stop beating this dead horse! Next year I am betting that a few things will happen. #1 All package suppliers will make sure that their packages are up to weight. #2 If there are different sizes on a given load, They will be more clearly marked. #3 If there are any problems, they will be addressed promptly with out pushing the blame elsewhere. Any supplier, shipper and buyer who misses this lesson will have no one but themselves to blame. We all need each other, so lets get back to beekeeping!


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## JPK

+1 Adam


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## seaweeds

2010 Packages from two different suppliers in GA. 

Got 35 packages from one supplier and the average weight of bees was only 2 to 2 1/4 pounds, that is short allot of bees. The queens were really small too hardly tell them from the nurse bees. 

The other packages came from a different supplier, 115 in all, they were a good weight with nice queens.


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## cmbest

If you can get them, Rossmans has great packages. They mostly come from their own hives and are very good about their weights. However, you have to order early!!


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## OrionBee

I thought this might be of some interest to some of the people who have had comments on here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=RGFEfABe5yU&feature=related

In this video, it seems that the people caging the packages are spraying/feeding (as in the comments as well) the bees to make them weigh more. even a light misting or feeding the bees just a little bit (and it does add up) would make it weigh a little more.

I would like to tend to agree with the beemaster01 on the three pounds going in does not mean that the three pounds is going to come out as three pounds.

In order to stay alive, any living thing has to burn what would be the human equivalent of calories which is turned biochemically into energy. I am sure that there is a differential equation out there that states something to the following

base weight can change based on the conditions of the bee (by being sprayed with sugar water, and/or force fed) with the variables being the distance, temperature, and appetite of the bees and take into account that some packages have a tendency to draw wax out inside the cage after sitting for a few days...... I do not want to attempt that, so you might have to find a mathematician to do that work for you.


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## JPK

A loss in weight of 15-30% in transit is just not possible.

Think about it for a moment.....bees are consuming syrup and with the exception of the mass of h20 loss due to respiration there is a 0 loss in mass from point of packaging to installation in your hive.

I weighed a bunch of packages before install and then all of the component including leftover syrup and wood bits after install and found 75% of my packages were half a pound under weight......thats 15% less product than I ordered in each of those packages.....let me note that NONE of the packages were over weight :scratch:

Now, the bees were in good shape when they arrived but that still does not excuse the deficiency in the product.

I'm going to have a talk with the producer and will post the outcome.


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## oldenglish

Different producers use different methods, many spray down the bees when they shake them just to keep flying bees limited. Once they have a good number of bees some use scoops to put bees into packages, each scoop is a known average weight, others just eyball the package. I have not heard of any that actually weigh the package, it would just take too long.


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## Keith Jarrett

JPK said:


> A loss in weight of 15-30% in transit is just not possible.
> Think about it for a moment.....bees are consuming syrup and with the exception of the mass of h20 loss due to respiration there is a 0 loss in mass from point of packaging to installation in your hive.
> .


Really, bees WILL lighten up. I shake thousands of pounds a year, and they do lighten up.


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## Beeslave

oldenglish said:


> I have not heard of any that actually weigh the package, it would just take too long.


Some do and it doesn't take any longer than if they weren't weighing them. The package cage sits on the scale as the bees are added from a funnel box on a stand with a bread bag chute to direct the bees into the box.


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## beemandan

JPK said:


> the exception of the mass of h20 loss due to respiration there is a 0 loss in mass from point of packaging to installation in your hive.


Actually there is a carbon loss as well. Oxygen is converted into Carbon dioxide during the process of producing energy in animals....bees included. I don't have any idea what the loss of weight might be for a package of bees in transit....but for grins, weigh yourself before going to bed, then weigh youself when you get up in the morning...no bathroom breaks in between. You'll see a measureable loss overnight...h2o and c.


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