# screen bottoms



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think they contribute significantly. I can't say if they are necessary. Certainly any method including Apistan, knocks down mites that would die if they fell through the screen, but without one, will crawl back up and survive.


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

Screen bottom boards (SBB) also will help the bees in ventilation. I also agree with MB. If you treat the bees or if the bee start to groom themselves and the mites get knocked off they will fall thru the screen on to the ground and be lost. They might die, they might be picked up by ants for food, or eaten by spiders, etc. They will have a very hard time to get back into the hive. This is another way of keeping the mite population down in the hive. The Giant honey bee (this is where the mite came from) lives on a 5 foot open comb high in the trees in the tropics. Guess what happens when they groom and a mite gets knocked off. We are trying to use the same idea by using the screened bottom boards.
Dan


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## JWG (Jun 25, 2004)

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but _Tropilelaeps clarae_ is the mite that transferred from the giant bees (which nest in the open). We do not have Tropilealaeps (yet?).

Varroa transferred over from A. cerana, which usually nests in cavities, like our bees.

Screened bottom boards can actually end up increasing mite levels.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
I usually try to stay out of controversial (opinionated subjects) but this one I can not overlook. 
Screen bottom boards are an excellent tool as part of IPM (Integrated Pest Management) because among other things, it allows mites that fall off the bees to fall through and not be able to return to the bees. Also, screen bottom boards contribute to maintaining ventilation of the hive a necessary factor to ward off other diseases. 
I recommend screen bottom boards when utilizing FGMO/thymol because FGMO/thymol accelerate (speed up) hygienic behavior in bees causing mites to fall of at a greater rate. Mites that fall through SBB do not crawl back up to harm your bees , especially breaking uyp their reproduction rate and preventing development of resistance to the treatment with FGMO/thymol. 
Mites are abundant in the honey bee races in Asia. Fortunately, Varroa and tracheal mites are the only ones so far found in the Western world. 
FGMO/thymol is an excellent tool against both mites found in the Western hemisphere.
Best regards and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Phoenix (May 26, 2004)

> Screened bottom boards can actually end up increasing mite levels.


I'm not sure I follow your thinking process. Mites do not migrate to the hives on their own, they are brought back to our hives by our bees that are robbing hives that might be crashing from the mites. Once the mites are in the hive they multiply within. So I don't see how you think SBB's help to increas mite levels, please explain.


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## Henry (Sep 17, 2004)

Dr., can you fog with the screen open? I closed mine at fogging thinking the fog would escape through the bottom. 
Henry


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

I've heard the same claim, IIRC, it's that the SBB's increase brood rearing, thus giving the mites more oppurtunity to breed.


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## Jim Young (Aug 31, 2004)

Canadian research indicated cooler weather reduces the broodnest temperature when screened bottom boards (SBB) are used in their area, thus favoring the reproduction of varroa mites. Perhaps, the use of SBB early in the Spring will also favor the reproduction of varroa mites until hot weather arrives in Summer.

http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/articles/AV-BOTTOM%20BOARD.pdf

Jim Young


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

Jim Young are you freinds with Keith D. and Mark W.

Terry


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## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

Sorry but Jim Young has got the Canadian research out of context.If one reads all 19 pages you will see in this research two types of screened bottom boards were used.Open screened bottoms in 2000 trials and closed screened bottoms in 2001.Page 12 referes to the thermal factor in relation to the type of bottom board and results obtained.Page 17 Conclusions,Recommendations and Perspectives. Recommendations are in favour of closed screened bottom boards against open so as not to encouage an accelerated increase in varroa reproduction with lowering of hive temperature.Just relating to the trial.Where as the opening post was "are screened bottom boards a necessary part of successfully using FGMO"? Which has been answered by Dr.Rodriguez.


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## Jim Young (Aug 31, 2004)

Bob Russell is correct; however, my response was directed to Phoenix's question regarding JWG's quote.

quote:
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Screened bottom boards can actually end up increasing mite levels. 
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I should have differentiated the difference between the Canadian conclusions regarding OPEN versus CLOSED screened bottom boards relating to varroa mite reproduction. If one takes the time to read the research article, it clearly demonstrates where open screened boards favors the reproduction of varroa mites in their cooler weather. 

Jim Young


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## Jim Young (Aug 31, 2004)

Antero wrote: "Jim Young are you freinds with Keith D. and Mark W."

I haven't had the pleasure to meet Keith D. and Mark W. What are their professions?

Jim Young


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## JWG (Jun 25, 2004)

Sorry I did not elaborate -- I was referring to the Chapleau study. Keeping the screen covered in cool weather was the recommendation. (I wonder if this is why the Cornell studies did not find SBB's to be of any signigicant effect in reducing mite loads.)

In ABJ this month there is a discussion of mite crawling and it turns out they are much more mobile than originally thought. If they fall through the screen they could crawl and end up on bees again, unless your hives are elevated, not on pallets and have no alighting boards. 

My comment was that maybe we should be cautious in comparing A. m. to Apis dorsata which has an completely different nesting habit, and different parasites. IF dorsata could be encouraged to nest in cavities (and it's been tried unsucessfully) there is nothing to say that they would have increased load of their own mites and and that it would be fatal to them. No doubt those bees and parasites have already had the host-parasite relationship established for ages, and they can survive, so it is a very different situation.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
Since the intrussion of honey bee parasitic mites and the slew of diseases brought into action due to the stress prouced by the mites, beekeeping is no longer what it used to be: keeping bees and getting their honey.
Nowdays, beekeepers have to be tuned to a great number of factors if they wish to be successful at the art of beekeeping. Matter of fact, beekeeping needs more than to be artful these days, it requires being on tune to science which requires reading and listening to those of us who spend our time trying to find the answers to those factors that will keep our bees healthy and thriving. This may sound like rhetoric, but it is not! It is simply the facts of life. There is very little room left for guess work in beekping if one wishes to be successful. Assumptions can be very misleading and costly.
Best wishes and God bless. 
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
Since the intrussion of honey bee parasitic mites and the slew of diseases brought into action due to the stress prouced by the mites, beekeeping is no longer what it used to be: keeping bees and getting their honey.
Nowdays, beekeepers have to be tuned to a great number of factors if they wish to be successful at the art of beekeeping. Matter of fact, beekeeping needs more than to be artful these days, it requires being on tune to science which requires reading and listening to those of us who spend our time trying to find the answers to those factors that will keep our bees healthy and thriving. This may sound like rhetoric, but it is not! It is simply the facts of life. There is very little room left for guess work in beekeeping if one wishes to be successful. Assumptions can be very misleading and costly.
Best wishes and God bless. 
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello folks.
As I said just a few moments ago, beekeeping has become a complicated profession. There are so many factors that can influence our success, or failure for that matter, that one is required to constantly pay attention to the changes being brought to light by researchers and beekeepers themselves. 
For example, I have found that sticky traps should be added to screened bottom boards to trap the mites that fall unless one uses open botton boards. This is a fact that has been amply emphazised in my research articles since early 1990's precisely because of the ability of mites to move around within the confines of the hive. And YES, mites can and do move rather fast. Their movility to move is outstanding considering their minute size.
Have a wonderful day and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi Jim,

They are entomologists.
I just took the Bee Master course at SFU and they were lecturing. 

They told a story of a Jim Young and his fathers Mead that was in an old dusty bottle, that was the best mead they'd ever had. Also that their Jim Young had the meanest bees anyone ever worked with. 

So I thought you might be him.

Terry


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## Jim Young (Aug 31, 2004)

Hi Terry,

I hope I never have to deal with mean bees; however, I know is only is a matter of time before Africanized Honey Bees invades my area.

I'm a 1968 entomology graduate from Oklahoma State University and haven't met any entomologists on the East Coast of the United States involved in beekeeping.

Regards,

Jim Young


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Hello Jim and fellow beekeepers.
"Africanized" honey bees:
Africanized honey bees in the Americas are hybrids resulting from crosses between very aggressive african honey bees and other not-so-aggressive american races of honey bees.
I have been a beekeeper since I was nine years old. Not just a kid with a couple of hives. In the mid fifties, I was considered a "big shot" in Puerto Rico because I owned 50 beehives. Those were the days of happy beekeeping in which not so many hives produced enough honey to render a profit. 
Presently, I have the pleasure and honor of working with the Iberian honey bee race which definitely has its origin from african honey bee races. The Iberian is a great honey producer but also very feisty, mean, if you will. 
It has taken the Iberian a very long time to adapt to environmental conditions in Spain in order to become a productive honey bee. And it is that without doubt.
American "africanized" honey bees are very NEW arrivals time wise. It will take them a very long time before they become adapted to existing environmental conditions in North America in order for them to be able to survive climatic conditions. These changes involve building larger nests and staying in them much longer in order to store enough honey to last them during our harsh winters. Will it happen? Yes, but you can rest assured that you will not see that happening in your life time. Will it be better for beekeeping? In my opinion as a beekeeper (and entomology enthusiast), the answer is yes as proven by the Iberian race of honey bees. This was Brother Adam's brain-child idea (apltly adopted by Dr. Kerr in Brazil!). And Brother Adam was right in his quest for a better bee. 
Please don't get me wrong. I prefer to work my bees as I do in the USA, in shorts and T-shirt, no veil and no gloves! But I also believe that the day will come when beekeeping will have to adapt to more aggressive honey bee races in order to survive the unslaught of parasites and the diseases parasites manage to elicit by means of the stress they produce on our bees. "Africanized" honey bees are doing that already. 
Honey bees are essential for humankind survival. The Lord in His magnificent ways is providing us the tools and means to do just that, survive. 
Have a wonderful day and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

JWG your right about Tropilelaeps clarae being the mite on the Giant Honey bee but I was referring to the idea behind screened bottom boards, where grooming will knock down the mite and it will keep falling down to the forest (apiary) floor. I have my hives on cinder blocks and then I made a frame stand that is 1 foot higher. Total height is 18 inches. If and when they do fall down then the mite is lost. I keep the SBB on all the time, winter and summer. So far (4 years) my bees seem to be doing ok.
Bottom line you were right about which mite. If you look up A. cerana you will find out that they are smaller than our bees and I think that is why small cell seems to be working for the other beekeepers.
Dan


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## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

Dr.Rodriguez
You appear to have an email communication problem you may not be aware of,please read your private message.Go to your profile to read private message.

It has been a pleasure working with you over the past years and have you visit our country.

Looking forward to being part of the accelerated developments from your years of professional/practicle research with the varroa bee mite.

Being half a world apart we have the opportunity to be working on developments 24 hours a day in opposing seasons. 

Bob.


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## Dr. Pedro Rodriguez (Feb 5, 2002)

Dear friends.
I need to make a small statement to explain the reason why I have not being very active in either the forum nor in e-mail correspondence. 
The city where I live in Spain is undergoing dramtic changes in communications especially in the fiber optic field. My home has been in the process of changing to that system hence I have not had e-mail facilities at home, requiring me to visit cyber cafes. I became ill while I was in Spain which kept me laid up for teh days.
Then I returned to the US to try to catch up on my mail. The fact that I was unable to do my e-mail regularly led to overwhelming of my mail box, and the publication of my last article in the ABJ January issue has contributed to further collapsing my mail box. Some of you will know because I have either told you about it or your mail has been returned to you. My phone has been ringing off the hook during the past two weeks (re: FGMO/thymol) further contributing to delaying reading my mail.
I am nearly caught up with my mail and I apologize for the delays. Please be patient with me, dear friends. I am getting there.
A big hug to my Kiwi brothers whom I seem to have also neglected in my e-mail delay but not forgotten.
Thanks to all of you who have sent "get well" messages" which I appreciate greatly.
FGMO marches on with more additions and if possible improvements. Thanks to all for your support.
Very best regards and God bless.
Dr. Rodriguez


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## thekeeper (Nov 24, 2004)

My question is how well does that screen work to prevent hive bettle.Sound like it would let them right out when they go and an easy way for their young to get in.From what I undestand is that the beetle drops its shell and then burrows in ground.The screens would help them if mesh is wide enough would it not?


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## Neubee (Mar 23, 2005)

thekeeper,
If the SBB had a tray with some kind of vegetable oil or FGMO in it that would help with the infestation. The beatles run from the bees and into the oil. It smothers them and the die. But if your SBB is open and, like you said, the mesh is wide enough, it would probably make things worse.


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## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

thekeeper,We do not have SHB in New Zealand at this time,you could take a look at Dr.Rodriguez work with FGMO trapping of SHB.

http://tinyurl.com/b3o73


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## YBCute (Oct 18, 2004)

Everyone always forgets 1 thing. To get the hives off the ground so the mites can't crawl back. I have mine 1' above ground and I constantly find dead mites on the paper sitting below the the screen. There is nothing under the screen so they drop all the way to the ground. Gives the ants something to play with ha


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

ybcute,
I don't think I understand. You have paper below the screen, but nothing under the screen. What is the difference between below and under? Please explain. Also, if they "drop all the way to the ground", how do you find them on the paper?


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## Dwight (May 18, 2005)

bjerm2,
You live in Ny therefore your climate is very similar to ours here in VT. Do you use open SBB's through the winter or do you slide a sticky board under the screen in the winter. I am using SBB's for the first time this year and I am trying to decide whether to leave them open for the winter od close them up. I don't really think the boxes provide any relief from the cold as they have no insulation value so they will probably be fine open. Please let me know what you do with yours, Thanks.


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## garyl (Mar 27, 2003)

Dwight,
I'm in NH, and I like to close them up just for the sake of wind. Nothing nastier than a cold wind blowing up yer pantleg. I have a predictable prevailing wind direction, so I place the hives back to the wind, with a mouse excluder on the bottom entrance and a 3/4" hole in the front of the top super for venting.


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## daniel G. (Feb 24, 2005)

I use screen bootom boards with the sticky trap tray insert that I made out of Luan plywood and stips of oak for a ledge. I use spray Pam on the boards and have had good luck with that setup. When I fog with Thymol and Oil I remove the trays and fog into the opening under the screen. This works real well and the fog than comes out of the top through the vents. 

I only have two hives but so far the right side hive has no mites and the left hive has a few mites. The left hive is actually declining in mites every week or two when I fog. 
Dan.


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

Dwight, Sorry I have not replied. I've been in the hospital for 3 months. Had a colenoscopy done and the Dr perforated my Colin. Been bad off since.

Now to answer your question. I leave my on all winter long. I've heard both sides and am thinking that it might help with the mite problem. I have not noticed the bees hurting from having the screens on all year long.

Dan


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

Forgot to tell you they are also located near trees and bushes that help slow down the winds. I get lots of snow too and most hives get burried with the amount of snow.

Dan


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## King bee apiary (Feb 8, 2005)

What a mess,So far no mites (new hives 1 year old),but have lost 1 hiv to those darn beetles and all are infested with them.Open them up for the mites,close them for the beetles.Now I'm really lost...I think I will try a modification of sorts,closed Screen bottom board with a tray of fgmo.And fog the hives.The way I see it if the beetles fall through they should die,if the mites fall through they should die or at the least not be able to crawl back up.
Has anyone noticed fgmo working on the small hive beetles?have tried checkmite in combination with guard-star.Guard star alone with no noticable effects on them.But did have good luck checkmite,but because of checkmite lost two supers of honey.Was affraid I would lose the hives and the super weren't capped yet,so I figured it would be best to just let the bees have it for the winter.Far better to have bees and honey next year than to lose bees and have nothing next year.
All comments welcome..
Here's hoping someone finds a better way to fight the beetles...


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## onlygoodSHBisdeadone (Sep 10, 2005)

KBA check out the post I have "SHB treatment"
I think you will appreciate the pics and results.


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## Phoenix (May 26, 2004)

King Bee,

I have found a better way, and fairly econimical. Send me a self addressed stamped envelope and I will send you a sample of my bait trap to test out.

PM me if anyone is interested and I will give you my address.


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## onlygoodSHBisdeadone (Sep 10, 2005)

Phoenix 
No disrespect intended. >better way< Have you tried both to compare? >Send me a self address envelope< That sounds a little Ron Popelish. >send a sample of bait trap< Seems a little small if it fit in an envelope to be very effective. Once again no offense attended but this is an open board and any advances in the field of pest control would be better served to be posted in an open form on the board IMHO. I would like very much to test any method that would further the cause but only if posted in an open manner that can be discerned by others if for no other reason than to protect the newbees from nucing their hive with ooo say for example 2tsp DDT which would fit in said envelope and I'm sure would be highly effective in reducing SHB population.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

West small hive beetle trap with vegtable works for me here in Fl. Also catches vero when they fall after using fog or powdered sugar


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## Phoenix (May 26, 2004)

> Have you tried both to compare?


Both what...?
Are there only two?

I have had much trouble with SHB in the last few years, and tried many methods of battling them. If you do a search on this forum you will find quite a few of my ramblings on this subject.



> Seems a little small if it fit in an envelope to be very effective.


I did not try to duplicate the West Hive Beetle Trap, if you want big, buy that one. 


> Once again no offense attended but this is an open board and any advances in the field of pest control would be better served to be posted in an open form on the board IMHO


I have made my offer and given more detail in other threads of this forum, please search if you want more info.


> I would like very much to test any method that would further the cause but only if posted in an open manner that can be discerned by others if for no other reason than to protect the newbees from nucing their hive with ooo say for example 2tsp DDT which would fit in said envelope and I'm sure would be highly effective in reducing SHB population.


As I am not sure what the legalities are for distributing pesticides, nor do I feel that I have discovered the miracle cure, I am not pushing the snake oil, merely the method of distribution. You can use whatever type of medication you chose, in my bait delivery trap.

Unlike those infomercials you have compared me to, I am not offering this trap on a "tryit before you buyit" basis. All I'm asking is for some of my fellow beeks to try out my idea and give me some feedback, especially skeptics such as yourself. I have made my offer, try it or don't. For those that have taken me up on my offer, the first one is free, if they like it I know where they can get more fairly cheap, if they don't, they can pay me $19.95.  

Just for clarification, I have found the "West" trap to be quite effective, but not very economical for those of us that have quite a few hives. The purpose of my design is not to trap the beetles, but to deliver and expose the bait of your choice to the beetles, and not your bees. Another added feature of my bait delivery trap is the fact that it is thin enough to fit between your inner and outer cover, where SHB love to hide, or you can simply place my trap on your bottom board. Not only that, but this trap appeals to the commercial keeper as well as the hobbiest due to the fact it is economical enough to place one or two in each hive you own.


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## onlygoodSHBisdeadone (Sep 10, 2005)

Pheonix - Thanks for the post. Your reply sounds much better. As I stated, no disrespect intended, just the way prev post was presented it "sounded" fishy with no ref to other posted threads or detail to what you where presenting. 

Bob


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## Craig W. (Feb 26, 2006)

Hi,
What is FGMO? If I start my new bees, which I will be getting in April, on small cell foundation and a SBB, will this be all I need to manage those mites?
Thanks so much,
Craig


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Food Grade Mineral Oil


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## Kevin M (Aug 11, 2006)

I only have one hive at this point, started last spring. I use FGMO with a SBB.I built a slide out draw into the hive stand with a white tray in it. i spray the tray with veggie oil. Anything that falls in, doesn't get out alive.I plan on leaving it as it is for the winter, with the draw closed, little winter winds can blow in the hive...I haven't used anything but FGMO and my mite count seems fairly low.I did a sugar treatment once, i prefer fogging....I think the SBB with fogging FGMO and a draw with sprayed veggie oil is very effective.If you have a severe infestation of mites, it may be to late to do as i do, and you may need another method to save your hive.


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## tracy (Nov 28, 2006)

Dr. Pedro
Many are saying small cell foundation cures most mite problems. My own research indicates that it can really help reduce mite issues. What do you think? Do you think mineral oil is a better solution? Or by doing both is it a one two punch against the mite.

Tracy


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Tracy

Dr. Pedro has stopped monitoring this forum several months ago, but I can tell you that in recent conversations with him small cell is a part of integrated pest management. Others on this forum, Micheal Bush for example have found it to be the key and is so successful with it he has not need "treatments". Read up on it on his 
site www.bushfarms.com Lots of good stuff on his site.


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## pkwilbur (Mar 20, 2004)

I had treated a local commercial pollination. beekeepers remaining hives. HIs were twenty five years of "treating chemically for everything". I told him to stop!!! we treated his last remaining hives in 2005. All the other 200 were gone from resistance....so as a last ditch effort, I fogged those 10, and told him to leave them alone. And we melted down the old comb. Mind you, I was a NEW beek compared to HIM. As he had 25 plus years on me as a beek. LOL hard call on my end!! Telling my mentor TO DO THIS TYPE of ACTION, was very personal indeed. THe only hives that suvived that winter for him, were the ones I fogged. He said, "I think you have something there" the next year. He has down sized now because the mites have given him a fit..... but he still has those colonies to work with that we helped through that winter...he is now a hobbist, and is doing his own small scale research.

I personally stopped fogging last year and am doing or trying to do a selection protocal for Honey bee improvement, and taking my losses when needed.

Ugh..Its all an "evil test", no matter how you look at it. LOL


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