# Now mating nuc question



## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

So far you all have answered my genetics and cell building questions. Now on to mating nucs. First my plans. Now is the time to build and plan. So I have purchased the mini nuc frames. My idea was to build two nuc "supers" to place on top of my double nucs. This would get the frames drawn and populated. I then can put a division board creating two nucs per "super". The queens that mate in these I would cage and use in hives that need to be replaced. When queen rearing is done these can go back on the double nucs. Next I was thinking on building 1 or 2 queen castles. These would be for my increases. 2 frames for each cell and once they are mated and laying good, transfer them to whatever is needed. I am thinking about more double nucs. Good plans, something I missed, or something better? Thanks


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I use standard deep frames for my 3-way mating nucs.
Just put a queen cell or 2 in there with a division board to divide up the
nuc box into 3 sections. The hive entrance is at the opposite end of course. In case one or
2 sides did not get a mated queen then the division boards are lifted to expand the
hive further for the new laying queen to take over. What can be more simple than this? An instant hive!


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

I have built a five frame nuc size box that the mini nuc frames go perpendicular to the traditional way. I plan on setting them on top of my current nucs in the spring. This is so I can get them drawn out and populated. My question is will the bees have a problem with the frames above them going in a different direction?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

PyroBee; The bees will have no problem with the frames crossing above, they will move up and draw comb just as well as if they ran the same direction.


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

Thanks. I assumed so but wanted to ask. Thought it was a good way to get them drawn and populated.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Plus room for a feeder (if you use standard equipment) to get those frames drawn fast


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

Perfect thank you. That is my exact thoughts. I figured it was the easiest way to get them drawn.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Given with limited bees and hive resources, I would
use all the standard frames instead of the mini mating nucs.
This is so that I can make the 2 frames split on a flow as
directed by Mel's method to conquer the mites at their highest
peak. Because everything in my operation is standardized, no additional
time and resources are wasted. I can just put a nuc together for sale
in the most efficient way. You have to plan the long term to use your 
time wisely. When your operation grows later on do you plan to use many
more minis or just the standard will do? What is the plan for your future operation? Which
method will give you the best results?
I have been using Mel's method in a modified way without knowing it for all these years to grow some of the biggest and
healthiest queens I have now. http://www.mdasplitter.com/ http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/IMN BOOKLET.pdf
http://www.mdasplitter.com/docs/IMN BOOKLET.pdf Just something for you to read upon.
In the end it is what the purpose of your operation in the long run. If it is for just selling the queens then the minis will work.
But if it is for increasing the hive numbers then using the standard for better combining should the virgin fail to mate is my best
choice. Mike Palmer's method is to use the nucs for a support system and so is Mel's method to use the nucs to make some honey
too. The 2 somehow overlaps each others with good results. I will take the best of both world to combine them in the most efficient
and economical way possible to grow my operation. Explore them all to find a favorable solution to your current operation.
Because I have to wait for the local outside carnis drones to allow my queens to mate using the minis will not work in my area, time wise. 
Once I have 200-300 hives like Lauri's then making the drones to grow the queens for sale with the minis is a better
way to go. What is your choice given the available bee resources that you currently have now?


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

Beepro I plan on taking a 10 frame deep and making it into a 4 way for splits. If all goes well the mini will be to raise queens for re-queening.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I have a lot of mating nucs of different sizes, different frame sizes and different configurations. I like them all for different reasons.

But when I collect queens, especially if I am pushed for time, I always go the the half sized deep nucs first. The queens are easy to find quickly and the nucs are usually close to being too full of bees & brood. Those queens NEED to be taken out. As a result, those mini nucs are far more productive over the the season.

Nucs made with only 2 standard frames would limit you in cool spring weather..too much exposure, too little _interior_ frame space. (Unless you live in a warm climate)

Larger nucs on standard frames make great mating nucs, but they have the room to 'hold' a newly mated queen longer, so they are my last nucs to invade and collect from when given the choice. They tend to grow quickly, then I am reluctant to remove the queens later on and risk a good little colony just to get a new queen mated. LOL, it's my own lack of discipline I guess. I'm getting better every year for keeping mating nucs just that. A Mating nuc _only _with no plans to allow it to grow into something larger. 

To get to that point, I think you need to have plenty of bees yourself with no wish to further expand.

This collection method has been because, so far, I usually leave the queen in the mating nucs until they are sold or used. It's a workable method, but not the best for organization.

This last season, I finally did some banking and got the confidence I needed to be sure it was done in the best way to keep queens in prime condition. Banking sounds easy, and it is, if you are not real concerned with the little details like I am.

I'll compare a banking colony to preparing a cell builder colony. If not done exactly correctly, it may work, but not near as well. 

This year I'll bank queens for no more than 3-5 days, to allow myself to collect and replace on a regular schedule and so I have collected queens ready for shipping each week. Collecting the morning of the shipping day was way too limiting & stressful if I was running out of time before they needed to be at the post office.

For banking both virgins and mated queens I preferred a queenless single deep, made up similar to a cell builder, except it had open brood. Lots of young bees & crowded population. *Well fed.* I'd bank virgin queens at times for a couple days to allow them to mature a little before giving them a mating nuc. They were so well fed, they were almost too fat to fly. 
Mated queen banked for a couple days shipped very well and arrived as plump as when they left. 

Talk about a fast turn around, when you remove a mated queen from a mating nuc and replace her with a 5 day old banked virgin, it seems like it's just a couple days and that nuc is laid up again & ready for another round.










Better get the queens out of this quick & reduce the colonies. (Divided standard nuc box)










Ready for the next round










With these standard divided nucs on deep mini frames, all I do in late summer is remove one queen and let the two sides combine. Then top with another box with standard frames & an interior feeder to prepare for over wintering. In spring I sell the nuc from the top and have the bottom 2 sides already populated and in place for the new season of queen rearing.

Here's how it looks in spring after I've separated the colony. Overwintered queen and standard frames are in the nuc transport box above, new capped queen cells already place in the divided mini frames below. Population equalizes pretty well if they had been use to both bottom and upper entrances. I just have to be sure to remove this top nuc before the queens hatch and take their mating flights.(Or risk an accidental virgin return to the queen right nuc)


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

Thanks Lauri. Gives me plenty to think about this winter.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

For the last 2 years, in my little bee experiment, I have been playing with the 10 frame deep splits either with 
a new mated queen or a capped queen cell or 2. The results compared to using a single 5 frame nuc was very different. There is a possibility that the virgin queen got into the wrong hive on her return. She got balled too many time. Or she cannot find her way in because of too many bees confusing her on her return trip. The final result is a virgin MIA although there are many factors at play when she goes out. So my conclusion was that a divided 10 frame deep or medium did not work out so well. It is better when you have a mated laying queen to use such a set up. The bees are better organized when they fly in and out of the hive.
Using an individual 5 frame nuc is better to allow the new queen to lay some more before using her for requeening purpose. This coming season I will have more 5 frame nucs both as a mating nuc and as a support hive with standard frames. See the foam window screen dividers below. This way the new queen can lay all she want to see which queen will go to head the production hive for the next season. I will only keep the best queens to use while eliminating the inferior genetics from my apiary. That is the reason to also use the standard frames and nucs through out. I'm not in the market to sell queens just building my hive numbers for now by raising a few good quality queens. 
With the latest window screen foam dividers perfected, I can house 3 queens in a 10 frame deep while allowing them to share the heat when it is still cold outside. I found out that using a 10 frame deep with 3 compartments are better than a 4 way splits. This is how the bees will build up better and the queen can be evaluated according to her laying ability. More room for the new queen to lay. And how efficient the queen and her workers arrange the hive with limited frames space will dictate her quality too. The 10 deep box can easily be converted back to standard hive when taking out the foam window screen dividers. I can use it temporarily for the virgins to mate or leave it in for a 2 queen set up for the cold winter months. It is very flexible with a window screen foam hive divider. Use one to divide the 5 frame standard mating nuc for 2 virgins. In the future I plan to use the same foam divider to introduce a mated queen too.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Pyro - should you happen to succeed beyond your wildest dreams, you might want to have a queen bank frame and queen cages handy (it is also helpful if the cages FIT into the queen bank frame!). That gives you an extra week if you need it (AFTER they are mated!). It is also convenient to have a Cloake Board above which to place the queen bank.

An incubator gives you even more options. Read Oldtimer's thread in the sticky section above titled, "Talk about Your Incubator".

Most important thing is to plan on how many queens your operation can handle, and develop a calendar. Some of us have different limiting factors than others. For many of us it it having enough bees to make into nucleus colonies. For others, it might be space to put the bees. Still others may have a nectar flow limitation, budget, time limitations, or other concerns. 

I remember a thread where a beginner wanted to expand to 100 colonies. I mentioned that that would require 400 to 500 boxes, 4,000 to 5,000 frames, 100 screened bottom boards, 100 inner covers, 100 outer covers, 100 robbing screens, 100 feeders, and a minimum of 100 bags of sugar for the year (I now figure 20 lbs of patties per colony and 40 lbs of sugar per colony). This is, of course, for the colonies you plan on keeping. At some point you need to figure on pallets, a flatbed truck, a forklift, and a honey room, but you can always sell excess queens, and especially over-wintered nuc's.

So figure out what is your limiting factor, and plan the time and money for this winter's hive building activities. You're right on asking about getting the combs drawn out for the mating nuc's. Gotta watch them, or they get filled with honey before you pull them.

Personally, I've liked the regular deep Langstroth with 2 vertical partitions to make a 3 x 3-frame nuc'. The effort is in making the double screen board with slots for the partitions, and individual 1/3 sized inner covers. The easy part is that 3 regular deep frames serve well for mating, giving me enough time to get to all of them and check laying patterns. If one compartment ends up with no queens, I just pull a partition and they are a 6-frame nuc'.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

And you need the yards to put them in. If you have bears or other wildlife, cows, horses, some fencing is in order. I have much more modest goals. Have one yard lined up, but probably need another.


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

I have my mating nucs built. What type of entrance is best to use? Should I just drill a hole in the side or make bottom boards? My main concern is robbing and having to use some type of a robbing screen.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

What type of nuc'? A regular 5-framer and a robbing screen to fit is a nice combination. My 3 x 3-frame boxes have 6 cork hole entrances and 3 narrow inner covers, as well as the outer cover. Best if each colony entrance has a different direction and a different painted symbol over the entrance.

A 2 x 5-frame nuc' with a robbing screen at each end works well.

Nuc's moved 10 miles from other bees probably won't need robbing screens so much as those near production bee yards with large colonies, but robbing screens are a good idea anyways.

Also, I found a good supply of corks, and ground a spade drill bit to shape. Tapered cork & tapered bit. You don't have to, but they hold better than wine corks.


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## PyroBee (Dec 14, 2013)

They are like Lauri's, a deep nuc split in half. They have deep mini frames. I was thinking of drilling a 3/4" hole for an entrance but am afraid of robbing.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

The nuc hive is better with a bottom board opening across.
This is because when there is a robbing on I can reduced the
entrance with some sponge foam to 1 bee space. Then cover up
the nuc hive to allow a narrow channel for the bees to orient. The
robber bees are confused while the bees inside the nuc can 
defend themselves with a smaller hive entrance. If you drill a
hole then there is no way to cover up the hive and create a small
channel for the bees to exit. You can also install a robber screen on
a bottom board type of opening just in case.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Yeah, if it is hot out, the bottom board opening is better because the entrance is large, allowing lots of ventilation, EVEN IF THE ENTRANCE GETS BLOCKED IN A ROBBING FIGHT. That is why a robbing screen on a nuc' is a good thing. It not only limits the fight and almost guarantees who wins, it prevents a choke-out.

A robbing fight CAN block a small entrance and suffocate the hive.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Here is how I have done my Mating Nuc
On my box account down load a pdf file

You will have to copy and Past in your browser to get to pull up

https://app.box.com/s/v95xz8gi4i8tbb5i5alx2i71a1fa3obf


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