# Working towards TF. Sort of.



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I think everybody would like to be TF - I know I would be, if it was possible.

But I can't, so I settle for keeping bees that are healthy, vigorous, productive and that don't die.

I live in a state where 40%, or more, of the managed colonies fail to survive every year, and no doubt countless feral colonies as well. So my apiary which has never experienced any colony loss, for any reason, is a remarkable outlier. And I'm content with my results, so far. 

The only thing I treat for is varroa mites, because I believe that if I didn't, my bees would die from the viruses the mites transmit. While I cannot suppress mites to completely avoid the direct damage they do, I see the viral transmission as something I can largely control by keeping mite levels very low. And because viral disease has such dire consequences, I make a point of doing that.

So far (finishing my fourth season), I have made no effort to requeen to improve my queenline genetics (other than home-grown splits and supercedures which are naturally mated.) My bees are all originally from swarms of unknown origin, some are likely to have been feral, some from managed colonies, but all arrived here on their own.

The drones from my colonies (and I make no effort to suppress drone production) no doubt spread my colonies' genetics throughout my local area.

I do not see my bees as genetic failures simply because they have not conquered varroa on their own. Varroa is an exotic and recently (in the evolutionary time-scale) introduced parasite. 

I do not believe that controling varroa weakens my bees in any way. It simply leverages the advantage they have in being in a managed yard at the same it also provides some protection to the still-extant population of feral bees in my area. Not only do my bees benefit, but other nearby colonies, too, are kept healthier because I do not allow my bees to collapse and spread huge, lethal, viral loads around. So while I can't protect them from varroa, I can moderate to some degree the secondary consequences of varroa parasitization.

The TF concept, laudable as it is, has taken on a life of its own that seems at odds with good animal husbandry.

Maybe you have set your sights on the non-achievable goal. To me, the ultimate evidence of sustainability are health, vigor, productiveness, and reliable survival year after year. And my colonies are proof that it can be done, even with ordinary bees, by a clueless beginning beekeeper, who started keeping bees on a whim. 

Enj.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Agree 100% with your findings. I have said this for years; It's like the walmart loop, if you work at walmart you can't afford to shop anywhere else... 

R Oliver; "The problem in the US is that the bee industry has not demanded this from the queen producers, so there is no financial incentive yet for them to do so."

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...evelop-resistance-to-OA&p=1464543#post1464543

Also agree that there is no point in letting them die, treat then requeen with better stock.

My advice is to relocate some of your bees in low beekeeping areas. Start with TF stock. Swarm trapping is a good way to catch some. Track and observe these captured swarms for mite tolerance may help identify where they live in your local area.


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## blackandtan (Aug 20, 2014)

I do think it's attainable, because I've met several (3) beeks in my area that have done it. Here are things I have noticed from them:
- They have 30-150 hives.
- they are well established in the area, they have been keeping bees for 10+ years.
- they do splits like crazy at certain times of the year.
-they have fairly isolated apiaries 

So it can be done. I've bought nucs from these folks but after a generation or two of queens it seems that the bees become less and less hygienic. 

I have also noticed "TF" beeks coming to them for advice. These "TF beeks" buy 2 hives, don't treat, the hives die in 2 years, and they buy 2 more. Some have been in this cycle for years. I have treated bc I do not want to get stuck in that cycle.

I have not put up swarm traps, but that should be a goal for spring.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

are you aware of anyone else in your general area having success keeping bees off treatments? looks like you are in beemandan's neck of the woods. dan, if you are following here, do you know of any tf keepers having any luck over there? my guess is if there are any feral survivors around the most likely place for them would be in the oconee national forest. it might be worth trying to scout some out and/or set swarm traps around there next spring.


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## blackandtan (Aug 20, 2014)

To my knowledge there are no successful TF beeks in my immediate vicinity. I have met 3 that are within an hour drive.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

blackandtan said:


> To my knowledge there are no successful TF beeks in my immediate vicinity. I have met 3 that are within an hour drive.


do any of the 3 happen to sells queens or nucs, and if so have you tried them, and if so are you finding high mite counts with them?


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## blackandtan (Aug 20, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> do any of the 3 happen to sells queens or nucs, and if so have you tried them, and if so are you finding high mite counts with them?


Yes. I have 2 hives from one of them. They are great bees and are the only hives I have not treated. I have had a difficult time splitting them bc they are really slow building up, and I've just been unsuccessful. I plan to really focus on successful splits from these hives in the spring.

But even these are getting progressively higher mite counts. Last check I got 65 mites per day on sticky board. As mentioned above this could just be because I've gotten better at managing bees and my hives are larger and stronger than in years past.

Im on the fence as to treat them or stay the course with these colonies.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

You source best TF queens possible, you try your best for a year or two, you observe and gather info from beeks in the area. If everything points to a situation where complete TF is not possible, I would take a balanced approach. 

In that situation, I would continue to source TF queens (after all, they cost almost same as other stock) but manage mites at 60, 70, 80%. In one of the Formic Acid articles, Mr. Oliver refers to goal of managing mites at 50%, rotating treatments etc. 

There is no shame in doing what you have to do.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I think many feel it is impossible because they do what they've always done only stop treating. For most it simply won't work that way. You have to work more with nature. Trying to keep a hive going around the clock laying all season long to maximize honey yields is something the simply doesn't happen in nature. All my hives " swarm" at some point, but I try to control when by moving the queen to the box I want her in and shaking bees in front of it. I also don't feed during dearths, my queens shut down and are in tune with the flows, if they don't, they don't make the cut. What I shoot for is a 3 yr cycle. Yr one build up, yr two honey production, and yr 3 as they start to dwindle, the queen gets put into a nuc the remaining hive is allowed to create cells, and once they are capped it gets busted up into however many nucs I can get out of it.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

blackandtan said:


> Im on the fence as to treat them or stay the course with these colonies.


understood blackandtan. i don't have sticky boards, but i do find high infestation rates (8 - 14% by alcohol wash) in my tf colonies that don't appear to be impacting survival or production. 

my suggestion is to look for nice healthy patterns of brood and if all looks well there, and if there are no other outward signs of varroasis (i.e. dwv and crawlers), and if your suppliers are getting by without treatments, then you can weigh all of that and decide which way you want to go.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

enjambres said:


> I settle for keeping bees that are healthy, vigorous, productive and that don't die.


Same here.



enjambres said:


> I do not allow my bees to collapse and spread huge, lethal, viral loads around.


Me neither.

To the OP,
Mite counts don't tell the whole story. I think that's what Squarepeg was getting at from his mite count percentages. I have had counts above recommended thresholds and my bees are doing great. I'm not saying this would be the situation in your case, but there is really only one way to find out. Best to you whatever road you take.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Nordak said:


> Same here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





great point by the both of you! I was just having a conversation with our state inspector at a festival where he was selling honey. We were talking bees and he was telling me how I needed to do mite counts, etc and I said what for ? What is an arbitrary number gonna tell me? Some colonies will have DWV and tons of crawlers at a 5% infestation, while others get along just fine at tripple the ammount .


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Harley Craig said:


> great point by the both of you! I was just having a conversation with our state inspector at a festival where he was selling honey. We were talking bees and he was telling me how I needed to do mite counts, etc and I said what for ? What is an arbitrary number gonna tell me? Some colonies will have DWV and tons of crawlers at a 5% infestation, while others get along just fine at tripple the ammount .


The scenario you describe points to some other factor(s) other than purely resistance mechanisms. At what point does tolerance become the key word in describing a scenario where mite levels are leaning toward high infestation and bees are surviving? Does it have a measure?


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## bobbybee (Sep 8, 2014)

<When I do splits I try to get them done early in the spring before the package bees are delivered.>

Where are you buying packaged bees from? It's possible that you are importing mites to your TF apiary.


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## blackandtan (Aug 20, 2014)

bobbybee said:


> Where are you buying packaged bees from? It's possible that you are importing mites to your TF apiary.


I meant I do splits in my apiary before the big suppliers ship out their packages each spring. That way my new queens only mate with over-wintered colonies.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Nordak said:


> The scenario you describe points to some other factor(s) other than purely resistance mechanisms. At what point does tolerance become the key word in describing a scenario where mite levels are leaning toward high infestation and bees are surviving? Does it have a measure?


I'm not sure what you are getting at? my bees are succeptible to mites, however they tolerate them longer and in higher numbers than your avg package bees, every package of bees i've ever had save 1 has either died in the first winter or absconded that fall prior to their first winter due to mites. I don't completely understand why my bees survive longer and tolerate higher amounts of varroa , but they do.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Harley Craig said:


> I'm not sure what you are getting at? my bees are succeptible to mites, however they tolerate them longer and in higher numbers than your avg package bees, every package of bees i've ever had save 1 has either died in the first winter or absconded that fall prior to their first winter due to mites. I don't completely understand why my bees survive longer and tolerate higher amounts of varroa , but they do.


Sorry, it was a bit of an open ended question. I wasn't singling you out, sorry if it seemed that way. My bees are the same way, and it makes me wonder if what we're really managing aren't necessarily resistant bees, but lean more toward tolerance, and if so, is there a measure, much like resistance, to refer to in a tolerance sense, I.e. my bees handle a 14% mite load and survive, therefore they are tolerant, not resistant. Sometimes I write like I'm thinking out loud. Sorry for the confusion.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Nordak said:


> Sorry, it was a bit of an open ended question. I wasn't singling you out, sorry if it seemed that way.


no problem I didn't feel singled out, truth be told I simply don't know, and not to sound rude, but I honestly don't care why, I just apreciate that they do. ..... I quit counting because I realized I'll never know what threshold they can handle till it's too late.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Harley Craig said:


> not to sound rude, but I honestly don't care why, I just apreciate that they do.


Not rude at all. I wish I could tell my nagging brain to just stop and smell the roses sometimes. I like your style, and your approach to keeping bees.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Nordak said:


> Not rude at all. I wish I could tell my nagging brain to just stop and smell the roses sometimes. I like your style, and your approach to keeping bees.


i might be the laziest beekeeper you will ever meet. LOL


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Even if mite count is moot in the context of an individual TF strategy, it would be interesting to gather methodical data including mite count on set schedule from various TF members.

For example,

1. Location
2. Monthly Mite %
3. Yearly (or twice a year) decease / viral report 

We have that TF member listing. would be cool to start a data thread with committed TF members.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Harley Craig said:


> I think many feel it is impossible because they do what they've always done only stop treating. For most it simply won't work that way. You have to work more with nature. Trying to keep a hive going around the clock laying all season long to maximize honey yields is something the simply doesn't happen in nature. All my hives " swarm" at some point, but I try to control when by moving the queen to the box I want her in and shaking bees in front of it. I also don't feed during dearths, my queens shut down and are in tune with the flows, if they don't, they don't make the cut. What I shoot for is a 3 yr cycle. Yr one build up, yr two honey production, and yr 3 as they start to dwindle, the queen gets put into a nuc the remaining hive is allowed to create cells, and once they are capped it gets busted up into however many nucs I can get out of it.


Not far behind you. I'm doing what you've been doing only not TF. It's not by choice but have been just letting the bees tell or show me what they want. Basically reacting to what they throw at me. Not planning. Not third year but I have third year queens because I got a couple nucs with 2nd year queens last year. It's a roller coaster ride for sure. Hang on an have fun.


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## twgun1 (Jun 26, 2015)

blackandtan said:


> I do think it's attainable, because I've met several (3) beeks in my area that have done it. Here are things I have noticed from them:
> - They have 30-150 hives.
> - they are well established in the area, they have been keeping bees for 10+ years.
> - they do splits like crazy at certain times of the year.
> ...


I'd spend a bit more time researching the "making splits like crazy at certain times of the year" I do believe timing your break in brood cycle by forcing the hive to make a new queen is paramount in keeping ahead of the mites. It is a numbers and statistics game...a race. Bonus if you do it on a flow because bees are making honey and not feeding a bunch of brood. i'd encourage you to buy the book OTS queen Rearing by Mel DIsselkoen. Expensive but well worth it! Paid for itself pretty past.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

blackandtan said:


> I monitor mite levels and treat/requeen hives that are not hygienic.
> 
> ***
> 
> ...


Half measures availeth nothing. Do you know of someone for whom your approach has actually worked for them to become treatment free? If you want to be treatment free, find someone within a similar region who is doing it successfully on a scale that is workable for you and do what they do.


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## blackandtan (Aug 20, 2014)

Riverderwent said:


> Half measures availeth nothing. Do you know of someone for whom your approach has actually worked for them to become treatment free? If you want to be treatment free, find someone within a similar region who is doing it successfully on a scale that is workable for you and do what they do.


No. But to be fair the TF beeks in my area just recommend good genetics. They advised me to treat then requeen and to take a long term approach.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

just some food for thought, and until someone comes up with bullet proof bees available for sale to the beekeeping public, i'm thinking about a dozen hives are about the minimum needed to sustain success at keeping bees off treatments. a couple dozen would be better.

the reason is if you can get through winter losing no more than say about a third, which i think is reasonable, you'll have enough to easily recover your numbers and still be able to produce honey. 

i believe that incorporating rearing your own queens from the most successful colonies, and using the less successful colonies to make up splits for those queens is the best way to make progress with your stock. increase can be easily augmented by utilizing swarm traps.

allowing the winnowing process to play out is not without it's critics, and you sure have to be ready to deal with a collapsing colony so as to not allow the spreading of diseases and pests, but the losses are parlayed into gains in terms of making room for better stock and boosting the next year's colonies with whatever drawn comb and honey is left behind.

my experience after just a few seasons of doing this, and barring it all being some flukey chance occurence, i've got bees that are doing better in terms of survival and production that the tf bees i started with.


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## blackandtan (Aug 20, 2014)

That makes sense square peg. Do you have an isolated apiary? 
As mentioned earlier, I'm raising my own queens but my genetics seem to be getting watered down.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Squarepeg, if you had to start over tomorrow and could only afford to start with a couple of hives, how would you go about building up.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

blackandtan said:


> That makes sense square peg. Do you have an isolated apiary?
> As mentioned earlier, I'm raising my own queens but my genetics seem to be getting watered down.


i went back and read your original post. i believe you are basing your assessment on high mite counts which may or may not be giving you the whole story.

for example, randy oliver is soliciting samples from treatment free beekeepers (and he is aware of some) who have colonies that are able to survive and be productive while dealing with infestation rates in the 15% range. he's looking to see if those colonies have less virulent viruses.

it's possible (or not) that your bees are doing better than you think despite seeing higher mite counts. are you seeing brood disease in your colonies? are you seeing collapse of colonies with high mite counts? do you have enough colonies to sustain some losses and rebuild with what's left?

i don't see it as my mission in life to convince everyone to avoid treatments. it takes a certain stomach to allow circumstances to play out in an apiary. it can be difficult to make progress with selection and breeding if the bee population around you is not dominated by resistant survivors. fusion_power started his journey with tf by allowing swarms from his survivors to infiltrate the neighborhood for a couple of years.

in the end you have to do what you feel is right for you. would it be more satisfying to be able to report that you never lose a hive because you've gotten good at treating them or that you've made progress by taking losses and ended up with a line of bees that are successful off treatments?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Riverderwent said:


> Squarepeg, if you had to start over tomorrow and could only afford to start with a couple of hives, how would you go about building up.


good question david. 

are we assuming that the building up is going to be funded by the income from the couple of hives? if yes, and knowing what i know now, i think it might take a very long time to build up.

how would you go about it?

i think those who are only able or willing to have a couple of hives it's more difficult, mostly because they have to depend on suppliers, and tf suppliers are pretty hard to find in most parts of the country.

the most cost effective way to do it is to locate overwintered feral colonies and collect swarms from them. if there are no overwintered feral survivors around to catch swarms from it's probably best to learn how to treat.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> the most cost effective way to do it is to locate overwintered feral colonies and collect swarms from them. if there are no overwintered feral survivors around to catch swarms from it's probably best to learn how to treat.


http://scientificbeekeeping.com/wha...fference-between-domesticated-and-feral-bees/ The genetics are there, probably in more geographic areas than they are thought to be. The various methods of grabbing those genetics and integrating them into managed stock is worthy of thought and discussion. (I'm still leery of trying to shortcut those methods by artificially selecting which queens aren't survivable and killing them and requeening with commercially raised treatment free queens. Although, I do see and understand the efficiency of doing so, I am inclined to let nature pick which colonies are best at survivability, and let me decide which of those survivors are the most productive and docile to work with.)


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

The trouble with treating and requeening is that it could affect hive ecology. Its not just bee genetics that may be useful, but also healthy hive ecologies. Letting a hive die out eliminates lousy hive dynamics. Using a healthy nuc to repopulate a deadout may be a better approach in this regard. 

Its possible that using splits from weaker hives may also not be as useful in this regard as taking some brood from stronger hives. The new splits won't be dealing with lurking issues under the surface. Start things on the right foot may move things in a better direction. I am also considering having dead outs irradiated to give introduced nucs a completely fresh start in new digs. 

That said, if issues are noticed early (ie chalkbrood, very slow build up), then I might pinch the queen and combine with an early nuc. Get rid of those genetics sooner than later.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Riverderwent said:


> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/wha...fference-between-domesticated-and-feral-bees/ The genetics are there, probably in more geographic areas than they are thought to be


No more than a gut feeling, but I think you're right. I don't live in a remote environment, rather, within a small city limit. Lots of homes, fringes of deciduous and pine forest. Some open fields for farming, cattle grazing. I've eliminated the possibility that the beekeeper that was near me was partially responsible for my bees, the opposite appears to have been true as his hives are gone, and I think that might have been where my first failing colony came from in retrospect. I know of no other beeks within 2 miles. Where are they coming from? It's not what you would call the most ideal area to find feral survivors, but at this point, not sure what else I could call them.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

blackandtan said:


> Do you have an isolated apiary?


there is one other beekeeper besides me in the immediate area that i am aware of, and he is using the same bees and methods as i am. i am located where 3 counties corner up to each other, about as far removed from the population centers as you can get around here, and well over half of the landscape is wooded with a river valley running through it. 

i haven't verified it, but my guess is that the majority of the bee population here would be represented by feral survivors in the woods, and i am assuming that it is their drone contribution largely responsible for the successes i am having in terms of mite resistance/tolerance and survival. 

being very good at swarming is also something that i observe with these bees, but i've been able to work around that with a modified version of walt wright's checkerboarding and careful selection over the seasons from colonies that respond favorably to this method of swarm prevention.


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## blackandtan (Aug 20, 2014)

The point has been made that mite counts aren't the indicator by which I should be gauging my success. Instead the only true way to know if I'm successful is to see if the bees live without treatment. I get that, it's not about mite loads it's about if the bees can tolerate mite loads and survive. I'm also regressing bees to natural cell size and mixing in some small cell foundation. I know research has been done that demonstrates that small cell bees may actually have higher mite drops due to the amount of brood per square inch. It's up for debate but I have heard some argue that this is not necessarily an indicator of excessive mite loads. So my measured mite loads could be artificially high, next year I need to look into a

Having said all that, I would like to hear from folks with successful treatment free experience as to what one of these hives look like. I've seen a hive crash from mites so I know exactly what happens. But what are the characteristics of these more tolerant/hygienic hives? Fall brood patterns? Presence of DWV or other viruses? Other observations?


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I'm only 3 years in, but to answer your question, it's more about what I'm not seeing, which are the symptoms of mite related virus. I have seen it on occasion, but never to the point of collapse. Well, I had a swarm of questionable genetic material my first year, and they were on the verge of collapse before requeening, which made the difference in their survival. Hygienically speaking, all of my bees express VSH traits in terms of uncapping brood. They are fairly easy going toward me, but won't put up with intruders such as SHB, wasps, foreign bees. Good defensive behavior. I think in terms of general traits, in terms of honey production, they are probably average, and I believe the hygienic behavior factors into this. To be fair to my bees though, I do foundationless, crush and strain so my numbers are going to be much lower than a conventional frame/extractor set up.


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## Tortuga (Dec 17, 2014)

Also agree that there is no point in letting them die, treat then requeen with better stock.


But what to treat with? If I treat with something that is know to cause brood issues and problems with drones, Wouldn't it be best to skip treatments and just requeen with (hopefully) better stock?? How can I bee treatment free if I am supposed to treat during the search to get away from treatments? Or is this the loophole that always keeps me treating?


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Nordak said:


> No more than a gut feeling, but I think you're right. I don't live in a remote environment, rather, within a small city limit. Lots of homes, fringes of deciduous and pine forest. Some open fields for farming, cattle grazing. I've eliminated the possibility that the beekeeper that was near me was partially responsible for my bees, the opposite appears to have been true as his hives are gone, and I think that might have been where my first failing colony came from in retrospect. I know of no other beeks within 2 miles. Where are they coming from? It's not what you would call the most ideal area to find feral survivors, but at this point, not sure what else I could call them.


Suburban environments provide lots of habitat for bees. The density of bees in urban environments can be pretty high according to some.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Tortuga said:


> Also agree that there is no point in letting them die, treat then requeen with better stock.
> 
> 
> But what to treat with? If I treat with something that is know to cause brood issues and problems with drones, Wouldn't it be best to skip treatments and just requeen with (hopefully) better stock?? How can I bee treatment free if I am supposed to treat during the search to get away from treatments? Or is this the loophole that always keeps me treating?



The model for starting is getting your numbers up and reproducing from survivors. Put your energy into this, rather than deciding what colony to treat or not. The idea is to concentrate on success in your apiary, not mitigate failure. Create backup and repopulate deadouts in the spring. By all means try starting off with stock that has some history of resistance. You will eventually have 1 winter survivors and 2 winter survivors that you will make queens from. 

And yes the benefit of tf is that the lurking issues with chemical use aren't there. Eventually, the lurking issues with mites/viruses will balance out the lurking issues with chemicals, even the soft ones. I really don't see the point of a transition. There are areas (may be where there is lots of exposure to migratory operations) where TF is very difficult or impossible. To much evolutionary flux for the bees to cope.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

blackandtan said:


> But what are the characteristics of these more tolerant/hygienic hives? Fall brood patterns? Presence of DWV or other viruses? Other observations?


at my location and with the stock i am working with, brooding is significantly curtailed if not shut down all together during our prolonged summer dearth. i assume this is in part an adaptation to the lack of forage availability but it denies the mites the opportunity to reproduce during that time and makes most if not all of the mites phoretic and vulnerable to removal by the bees.

brooding picks back up in the late summer and it's not unusual for me to see 3 or 4 out of the 20 colonies removing some devitalized (mostly drone) larvae from their hive. this may last for a week or two and then resolves on its own. i've seen just a little spottiness in the worker brood in these hives, but this also resolves on its own.

we had a much longer and deeper dearth this summer compared to previous years. fall brooding is beginning and i haven't observed any larvae being removed yet.

i do see just a few dwv and crawlers here and there, but haven't been able to associate seeing those with any observable impact on a colony.

i've never seen a colony weakened from mites to the point of collapsing and getting robbed out prior to winter. several years back i had one dwindle from mites several to the point of me shaking it out prior to winter and i'm not sure why it didn't get robbed.

coming out of winter and during the spring build up, i look carefully at drone larvae that gets exposed when i break boxes apart. it's not unusual for me not to see any mites at all until later in the spring or early summer.


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## bobbybee (Sep 8, 2014)

blackandtan said:


> The point has been made that mite counts aren't the indicator by which I should be gauging my success. Instead the only true way to know if I'm successful is to see if the bees live without treatment. I get that, it's not about mite loads it's about if the bees can tolerate mite loads and survive. I'm also regressing bees to natural cell size and mixing in some small cell foundation. I know research has been done that demonstrates that small cell bees may actually have higher mite drops due to the amount of brood per square inch. It's up for debate but I have heard some argue that this is not necessarily an indicator of excessive mite loads. So my measured mite loads could be artificially high, next year I need to look into a
> 
> Having said all that, I would like to hear from folks with successful treatment free experience as to what one of these hives look like. I've seen a hive crash from mites so I know exactly what happens. But what are the characteristics of these more tolerant/hygienic hives? Fall brood patterns? Presence of DWV or other viruses? Other observations?



blackandtan- I just finished my 3rd year and been TF from the start. That has been mostly bc I'm lazy about checking mite loads. However, this is my story over the last 3 years.... Started with only 1 hive (a nuc). Kept it super strong on population and stores. They find their own pollen (and lots of it). I split at least once a year, moving the queen to the nuc if at all possible. I really think that brood breaks are the key. Fresh queens make lots of solid brood patterns, which makes lots of strong hives. Italian mutts, about 90% Mann Lake rite cell foundation. I've gone from 1 to now 10 hives over the last few years. Only lost 1 hive to what I think was mites (they absconded). One other I let starve (not on purpose) this spring. Honestly, the only thing I do besides that is pray for them. Yes, I pray for my bees. But, I'm ready to treat with OAV if necessary.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

squarepeg said:


> at my location and with the stock i am working with, brooding is significantly curtailed if not shut down all together during our prolonged summer dearth. i assume this is in part an adaptation to the lack of forage availability but it denies the mites the opportunity to reproduce during that time and makes most if not all of the mites phoretic and vulnerable to removal by the bees.
> 
> brooding picks back up in the late summer and it's not unusual for me to see 3 or 4 out of the 20 colonies removing some devitalized (mostly drone) larvae from their hive. this may last for a week or two and then resolves on its own. i've seen just a little spottiness in the worker brood in these hives, but this also resolves on its own.
> 
> ...




this is almost to T what I see with mine, Sometimes when brooding rears back up after our dearth , some of these colonies look like absolute crap, but it always clears back up, and if it doesn't I take 2 colonies with crap patterns and combine them a few weeks before it gets too cold to forrage, this ensures they don't get weak enough to be robbed out and spread crap elsewhere. If they live till spring, they get a new queen and a frame or two of brood from a good colony which will also help delay a swarm from the good colony , and it's typically off to the races for them.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Riverderwent said:


> Squarepeg, if you had to start over tomorrow and could only afford to start with a couple of hives, how would you go about building up.


i'm obviously not squarepeg, but I did start over after I lost all my colonies my first yr, started with a couple of local TF nucs. I expanded to 7 that first yr then to 20 the next . I spit one colonny up early into as many nucs as I could, and as soon as I pulled enough honey to buy frames, I busted the second one up into nucs. By this point some of my nucs had expanded enough that I could bust them up into nucs. I made boxes out of whatever scrap I could. I actually expanded to 11 that yr, but come fall some of them were made to late so I combined back down. When I expanded from 7 to 20 I had to purchase boxes etc in order to keep up. Once I finish selling honey this yr, I will be back out of the hole money wise.


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## bobbybee (Sep 8, 2014)

I think that it would be worth sharing why brood breaks are important for curtailing varroa. If this is wrong, someone please correct me. But from what I understand..... the temporary halt of brood gives the mites no where to reproduce, as they do so in the brood. Then, when the new queen comes along, the mites all try to jump into brood just before it's capped. When there are 3 or more mites in a cell, there isn't enough food (just a single larvae) to eat on and they starve. Is this correct?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

That is a theory I see on the web, but all of the studies I have read say the multiple foundresses in the cell causes them to lay fewer or no eggs, and the females do not have the mating success that they do if only one mite family is in the cell. I have not seen a study that says they starve.


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> there is one other beekeeper besides me in the immediate area that i am aware of, and he is using the same bees and methods as i am. i am located where 3 counties corner up to each other, about as far removed from the population centers as you can get around here, and well over half of the landscape is wooded with a river valley running through it.
> 
> i haven't verified it, but my guess is that the majority of the bee population here would be represented by feral survivors in the woods, and i am assuming that it is their drone contribution largely responsible for the successes i am having in terms of mite resistance/tolerance and survival.
> 
> being very good at swarming is also something that i observe with these bees, but i've been able to work around that with a modified version of walt wright's checkerboarding and careful selection over the seasons from colonies that respond favorably to this method of swarm prevention.



Squarepeg---are you worried at all about being isolated? Not trying to cause trouble but a serious question. There are examples of treatment free operations doing well in isolation but completely collapsing when exposed to other regions/beekeepers. In my opinion Webster's situation was a classic example of that and what pushed him to russians.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i think it's a good question bbb. 

the examples you mention are why i have expressed that i am uncertain how this strain of bee would do in other regions.

i don't plan on moving my operation, and alabama law prohibits migratory beekeepers from placing bees here except for temporary pollination and only with a special permit.

so all in all i don't feel like what i am doing here is likely to be compromised by outside exposure, and it's more likely that being somewhat isolated is making it a little easier for me.


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

blackandtan said:


> Having said all that, I would like to hear from folks with successful treatment free experience as to what one of these hives look like. I've seen a hive crash from mites so I know exactly what happens. But what are the characteristics of these more tolerant/hygienic hives? Fall brood patterns? Presence of DWV or other viruses? Other observations?


Hi blackandtan
What I have seen over the years regarding treatment free colonies has changed. 

Twenty years ago, a treatment free survivor looked nothing like a production colony. In fact, they were pitiful things from a commercial beekeeping aspect and no one really knew what to do with them. On one hand, they exhibited many of the characteristics that I find desirable in colonies----they were very much in tune with environment and could quickly shut down in dearth, prepared well for winter with small sized clusters (which was fine in the north), easily showed hygenic behavior with the traditional nitrogen testing. BUT on the other hand they were awful slow to build up in spring---to the point that they were not of any value from a pollination stand point. And never expanded to great numbers even on the big late spring flows. As such, they never produced a profitable honey crop and typically ran at about 50% production compared to our regular colonies. So the most obvious thing without looking into the hive was that they were small colonies that could survive with no amitraz, fluvalinate, coumaphous, etc.

Such original stock is what modern day vsh was developed from. Those colonies, at least the ones from here, were pulled from untreated hives collected from within multiple commercial operations over a number of years. In fact there was roughly a decade of selection pressure from when USDA had the first survivors until they added the second batch of genetics and in that time a fair amount of insemination work was performed within that gene pool in at least two northern states. The vast majority, if not all, of the genetics within modern varroa tolerant/resistant colonies didnt come from feral colonies hiding in a tree somewhere. 

Once the USDA ended up with original survivors, they eventually released stock to the public over time for breeding purposes and at the same time russians were brought into the country and added to the mix, more people became involved in using some version of these new stocks and more folks started to limit their treatments at least for some of their operation. 

As such there has been a progression over the last two decades. These days survivors can look similar to an ordinary hive. However, i'll hedge that and say there is GREAT variabilty. What I see sometimes is:

1) A paced start to spring. Dont blow out of the gates with the first maple bloom. Once they get started they tend to boom BUT don't head for the trees immediately either. Normally can be held in two deeps if there is room above for nectar. 

2) Strong hygenic behavior across the board for chalk, efb, etc. 

3) lots of propolis. probably too much 

4) seem to be runny on the comb more often than not

5) decent honey production

6) poor comb building

7) not particulary friendly

8) variation in mite infestation from 2-3% upto 10+% with alcohol wash 

9) plenty of evidence of damaged adult mites when observed as natural fall on screened bottoms 

10) get ready for winter early

Not that any of the above is universal. Just what I've observed

I always tell people if they are looking for the least amount or no treatment to start with vsh type stock or consider russians. the hardest of the work was already done for you nearly twenty years ago when the first stocks were identified. don't try to reinvent the wheel. BUT understand you are up against many obstacles even with this stock. UNLESS you are running a large sideline operation with a couple hundred colonies for mating saturation (depending on your location) or are operating in isolation, you are going to be tasked to keep the stock pure enough to maintain varroa resistance without a plan to bring in additional genetics.


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> i think it's a good question bbb.
> 
> the examples you mention are why i have expressed that i am uncertain how this strain of bee would do in other regions.
> 
> ...


That makes good sense. I was just sorta thinking/typing out loud! Back in the mid-late 90's we'd been trading some stock with Kirk Webster and he had a been going without treatment pretty succesfully. He had some really good stock, always really productive, etc but it wintered like crap for us. we couldnt figure out what the problem was at the time as he had pretty rough weather in the winters but we operated in an area of intense commercial migratory outfits and him not as much. if i remember the history right, he eventually ended up with exposure to some of the guys chasing goldenrod flows across the east and then had a big crash subsequently moving more towards russians.


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

Let me add #11) to my list. Relatively long lived queens. With production colonies, my goal is to mate them in first summer, maybe get some honey that year and have them ready for winter/spring. Following year----full production colony. Queen may live until 3rd year but most likely is superceding or failing and I could really careless as replace them will previous summer matings. However, untreated survivors used as breeder still are plugging along at 3-4 years. That type of longevity is something I recall from long ago prior to dealing with varroa; typical queens these days seem short lived but survivor stock seems long lived. On the surface it seems odd as would think that varroa would cause them to fail sooner but if i was to guess the treatments regimens have really impacted longevity .


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