# OOOUCH!!!!!! Not a good report in the ABJ



## popscott (Apr 12, 2005)

The ABJ's Classroom by Jerry Hayes (Nov. Issue) has really hammered the FGMO.

..... Ineffective and inconsistent in the "complete" control of Varroa ....

..... respirator and protective clothing when using chemical for applicator ......

..... When used with an oil base, the contamination of beeswax is "significant".....

...... an illegal, unapproved varroa control ...


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Our testing in Missouri has shown FGMO fogging to be at the bottom of the varroa control scale. 

We have not tested using thymol as the fogging of thymol is illegal. Especially when honey supers are on.

Fogging thymol on beeswax contaminates wax. We do not even want the wax contamination from the test!

Fogging thymol is an illegal ,unapproved varroa control but people use illegal treatemnts all the time. The fine is 10,000 U.S. for the first offence. ignorance of the law will not work to get off the hook if you should get caught (highly unlikely)!

I also ask those fogging thymol. What will you do when all your honey tastes and smells like thymol? Yuk! 

Gloves used for thymol placement in hives stink for months! A friends bee truck still stinks of thymol after simply keeping ApiLife var containers in the truck. Fumes are bad enough but fogging the thymol on to brood comb and onto honey supers while the flow is in progress is plain stupid!

If you need to use *thymol* use Api Life var (legal) and REMOVE the tab after each treatment (as per label)so the bees and comb only get the fumes.

Dr. Pedro gave his talk at the Missouri State Beekeepers meeting this fall and I stayed away as what he shares is wrong for beekeeping but I knew we would lock horns. 

How could the stink of thymol not build up in the hive with constant fogging season after season!

Wake up people!


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## popscott (Apr 12, 2005)

My two cents worth....

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS.... Looks like we have opened up another can of worms....We have had this dis-cussin' before.

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000401


I use the FGMO without the Thymol and it works for me. I have NEVER read where anyone uses Thymol when their honey supers are ON, but have seen several recommendation to NOT use Thymol with your honey supers on I have read several independent folks document their mite counts before and after treatment, seems to be working for them, but that dont mean squat. Just hearsay, not proof. 
Personally, I have greased a board and slipped under my SBB, leave it 24 hours, not find ANY mites, fog, then find several mites after a couple hours. No fancy test or documents, just dead mites. I believe that was what I was after in the first place. 

Again, just my two cents worth....


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## Sourwood (Mar 20, 2005)

I have completed the season fogging regularly with fgmo w/o the thymol. I have some hives that are next to nothing in varroa while others in a 24 natural fall count are in the twenties. A couple of times over the summer I did my own "tests" and placed a clean sticky board underneath the hives I fogged right before applicating them. I then pulled the boards immediately to see just how many would fall from the fogging. Each time it was in the late teens to early twenties. While I think it has helped me some, I'm not convinced it is the cure all for the problem. Just my opinion.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

I have been fogging my girls every five days (when they are flying)since I started beekeeping in March of 2003. Just fogging, no thymol. My 24-hr counts are 0-5 and after 3 years, my hives are stronger than they've ever been. Draw your own conclusions.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Tia,
One of the hard things about varroa control is the many factors which effect varroa control. I do not have a problem with simply fogging mineral oil. I had no problem with the cords. When honey,beeswax & propolis were only added.

We did run FGMO tests and published results of tests run with controls in 1998. The test was run by a USDA person, the president of the Missouri State beekeepers assn. & a beekeeper holding two master beekeeper certifications. All three write papers , do speaking engagements and one has taught beekeeping around the world.

The project was funded by a $3,000 SARE grant.

We found no difference between the controls & the FGMO treated hives . They all crashed! The 10 hives which were left untreated and then treated with apistan in fall survived.

The group followed Dr. Pedro's net instructions to the T.

We all observed the project with great interest as FGMO is exactly what a commercial beekeeper (myself) would like to use if it had worked! 

Are you sure Tia your bees are not varroa tolerant? Maybe you have not got the virulent strain of varroa?

Dr. Pedro and I have had many discussions on the subject. When I said to Dr. Pedro on BEE-L that he should quit advising people to fog thymol into hives with supers are on and the flow is on he simply said he would not do so as he said contamination would not be a problem.(the whole discussion is in the BEE-L archives)

You can believe what you want Tia but if FGMO like you are doing works so well why did Dr. Pedro add the cords? Then the thymol?

The foging thymol might indeed work in controling varroa but a much safer way of use (and legal ) is to use a product like Api Life Var,follow the directions and NOT use while honey supers are on! 
The end result of the fogging of thymol could very well be the pulling of honey from shelves and a serious problem getting the good name of honey back.


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## popscott (Apr 12, 2005)

Mr. Harrison,

"We did run FGMO tests and published results of tests run with controls in 1998." 

Where could I get the "published results" at?


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Bob, I'm not arguing with you. I know that FGMO doesn't work for some--maybe many. All I'm saying is that it works for me.

<Are you sure Tia your bees are not varroa tolerant?> No, Bob, I'm not sure. I sure hope so, though. <Maybe you have not got the virulent strain of varroa?> That would be nice, too. But I don't know anything for sure. I'm not a scientist; I'm merely a hobbyist beekeeper who pretty much leaves her bees to tend for themselves. I don't get involved with all the scientific stuff if I don't have to. 

Please understand my posting the facts regarding my bees was not to argue with or denigrate your viewpoint; it was merely to report how my girls are doing. I have no idea whether or not what I do plays a part in their welfare. Maybe they'd be doing just as well if I never intervened. Maybe I'm just a lucky bk. But then again, maybe I'm doing something right.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Tia,
I understand.

Popscott,
The study grant is named " Assessement of Mineral oil to control varroa mites on Honey Bees in Mid_Missouri"

The 1998 SARE grant was given to Matt Higdon 10701 Hecht Rd Hallsville,Mo. 65255

Matt has two Master beekeeping certifications (one is from EAS).

The complete study is published in the SARE grant publication ( 1998-2000 Sare grants) available from the Mo.Dept. of Ag (Joan Benjamin) 1-573-445-2194. 

The book is passed out for free so believe she would send you a copy.

I could not find the study on the net but maybe you can? you can find the above study title (no.9 issued in 1998).

If you want to talk to Matt I found an email address for him from back then. Not sure if current. I will send privately if you want.


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## Henry (Sep 17, 2004)

Bob, I used FGMO only this past year and mite numbers were next to nothing in all but one. One hive was loaded. It was fogged the same time that all the rest were so maybe it has a lot to do with resistance from that particular hive.The Russian Hybred hive seem to do well so that looks like the direction I may go in the future.
On another note, Bob, what about powdered sugar?I tried it a while back and it really knocks the mites off but does it knock ENOUGH of them off?And what does the powdered sugar do to them?After about a minute or two the mites seem to be on their back kicking like crazy.
Henry


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

I never tried the powdered sugar for varroa control but a friend has. All he has used for a couple years. A bunch of work but seems to be helping but he thinks the varroa load was higher this fall than last so maybe a carry over. I try to keep an open mind to all treatments if they do not contaminate wax or honey.
i have had reports of California beekeepers foging amatraz in the hives. I can not understand some of these guys!
If foging FGMO works for you Henry keep doing what you are doing but always keep a close eye on varroa loads especially in late summer and fall.


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## Fogger1 (Aug 17, 2005)

Mr. Harrison - can you please specifically cite the legislation that makes fogging with thymol an illegal practice ? 

Was it any particular state, or was it federal legislation ? 

Can you please guide me to the specific state / federal agency and date on which the determination was made ?

Again, and to be clear, I'm interested in the substantiation of the the "illegal" claim, as opposed to fogging with thymol not being "approved." 

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Thymol is found naturally occurring in thyme herb. Thyme herb is used as a food-seasoning ingredient, and is generally recognized as a safe (GRAS) natural seasoning by FDA (21CFR 182.20). Thyme oil also is recognized as a GRAS essential oil by FDA (21 CFR 182.20). The volatile oil component of thyme herb is about 2%to 5% content, and thyme oil is reported to contain from 30% to 75% thymol, and even up to 90%. Thymol may be safely used in foods as a synthetic flavoring substance when used in the minimum quantity to produce the intended effect. (21CFR 172.515). Levels of thymol reported in foods where it is permitted as a direct food additive have been stated as 44 ppm in ice cream, ices, etc.; 2.5 ppm to 11 ppm in non-alcoholic beverages; 9.4 ppm in candy, 5 to 6.5 ppm in baked goods, and 100 ppm in chewing gum. Thymol is a natural component of lime blossom honey, where the maximum thymol content has been determined to be .16 mg / kg. These values respectively are 200-, 20, and 100- fold greater than the highest level of thymol (i.e., 48 mg/kg) measured in honey treated with ApiLife Var. Thymol in ice cream has been measured at 300 fold higher. So in conclusion FDA approves thymol in food, EPA approves it in ApiLife Var. It is the main active ingredient in Listerine but its illegal to use it as a FGMO fog. Why????


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Why???? 

All the products you name have been tested and registered for each use. Put thymol in any form in a fogger and use as a pesticide and you are using an illegal method. Jerry Hayes should know if illegal as he is head of one of the largest apiary inspection divisions in the U.S. ( State of Florida)!

Jerry gave his opinion on FGMO in the classroon section of the Nov. ABJ. Jerry did not go into the illegal aspect like I have but here is what he said:
" Everyone has an opinion and that is mine and we have not even talked about it being an ILLEGAL , unapproved varroa control."

Two violations are present.
1. the same violation used to convict Tuttle labs.
Thymol is being used as a pesticide for which it is not registered.

2.Thymol in Api Life Var was tested and given restrictions such as not to be used when supers are on. Honey contamination in testing was the reason! I dare Dr. Pedro to approach the FDA to let him fog thymol of any kind in the hive when nectar is coming in!

Thymol in FGMO has not had the required testing.

Tuttle labs was warned and warned and failed to heed the warnings so they paid the price. Who wants to be next? Dr. Pedro is not answering my posts for obvious reasons. He knows its about his turn if he does not stop saying to use thymol fogging when the supers are on. None of us have got a problem with fogging mineral oil by itself!

Saying the Tuttle labs solution was only a "bee calmer" did not hold up in court!

The only reason I believe Dr. Pedro has been left alone so far is because most believe he has good intent but if Dr. Pedro continues to advise beekeepers of illegal methods his trip downtown might be sooner than later.

A couple criminal sayings:

" you can always see the law coming" ( ask Tuttle labs)

" Don't do the crime unless you can do the time (or pay the fine)"


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Why is it not safe in honey.that question still remains as to WHY its illegal. Is it safe to eat in food??? FDA says its safe in ice cream, gum, and candy, three things kids love to eat (I like em too). Should they be made illegal????? I can understand why we as beeks dont want our honey to taste like anything else but is it safe??? Will thymol make me sick?? Will it cause cancer; make my hair fall out (more than it already is)? Can thymol be added to honey as a flavoring and be legal (gag me with a spoon)? Powdered sugar I dont think is legal to use as an insecticide. Vinegar is not legal to use as an insecticide I dont think. But they are considered safe as food. Have they been tested and registered? Should people who use them for Vero be fined $10,000? Honey is a food. Thymol is legal as a food additive. I dont want honey to taste like thymol or vinegar but why is it illegal to use as a fog but the fumes from ApiLife Var are OK? Inquiring minds need to know.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

It's a sticky issue, full of seemingly inconsistent statements and vague and uncertain conclusions. It's been discussed here before, more than once probably. Here's a recent thread along the same lines regarding OA in which at least some concensus and understanding was reached:

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=004021

George-


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## Fogger1 (Aug 17, 2005)

Thanks to all who kindly cited some specific agency rulings regarding the use of thymol in various consumer products.

I have also just discovered that "thymol" is specifically listed as an active ingredient in a leading nasal decongestant "cold rub." If I recall correctly, that same rub comes in a liquid form that is specifically used in room vaporizors...those same devices that we all used to spend our sick-days home from school sitting next to.....breathing in vapor form.

(Maybe that's why I've never had mites !!) 

The other active ingredients listed on that product include petrolatum, mineral oil, nutmeg oil, spirits of turpentine, and cedarleaf oil. 

I remain interested in locating any official agency reports or notices specifically wherein fogging with thymol is "illegal." 

Again, I'm interested in finding objective evidence differentiating "not-approved" from "illegal" in terms of the sum and substance of regulatory law.

Thanks again.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Any "lawman" will tell you the law books contain many laws which are not enforced. Jay walking is one example.

When a problem draws the attention of lawmen (such as the traveling around the country endorsing a practice deemed dangerous by the FDA) then the people sworn to enforce the laws are required to act. They then open up the law books and make a bust.

Complaints from other beekeepers fearing a thymol contamination issue fuel the problem.

It was nice of Dr. Pedro to come to the Missouri State Beekeepers meeting and give his presentation. Did he notice the video camera? The large fellow with the tape recorder in his open briefcase?

Those on the list which are friends with Dr. Pedro please convince him to drop the thymol fogging part when supers are on! That's like running up a red flag and saying "somebody stop me!".

Mac & fogger1 raise valid arguments but the law is clear. Tuttle labs thought they were "above the law". Complaints caused the Tuttle bust.

Complaints cause the law to act and some have been voiced on the thymol while supers are on method.

"Mitegone" in their presentations on the use of formic acid were very careful in the words they chose. Bill R. was very aware of the laws. I tried to help Bill understand what he could say and what he could not on several occassions. I tried with Dr. Pedro but he would have no part of backing off on fogging thymol in the honey flow. 

I am not the bad guy here! Don't kill the messenger!


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

> It is the main active ingredient in Listerine


These are the 'Active Ingedients' listed on the bottle:

Eucalyptol 0.092%
Menthol 0.042%
Methyl salicylate 0.060%
Thymol 0.064%

Looks to me as though Eucalyptol is the main active ingredient.

Here are some more remarks on thymol:

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000326#000018

[ November 26, 2005, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Dick Allen, I stand corrected. I was under the false assumption that the first ingredient in the list of ingredients was the main ingredient. I had not checked the numbers. Thanks for making that clear.
I would never kill a messenger.
Have any samples of honey or wax been found to contain thymol or fgmo or formic or 
O A
I guess if FDA ran some tests it would end the debate one way or the other.
Hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving. Did ya have any thymol in your stuffing, i.e., thyme?


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

> Have any samples of honey or wax been found to contain thymol or fgmo or formic or O A....


well, yes to at least the last couple of items since they both occur naturally in honey.



> Did ya have any thymol in your stuffing, i.e., thyme?


In fact, I didnt 

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=004192;p=1#000005 

However, I did use mouth wash this morning with the ingredients listed in a previous post and I'm still alive and well.

[ November 26, 2005, 08:07 PM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Stuffing recipe sounds great. Might have to try it next year. Thanks. 
And thanks everyone for the info.


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## popscott (Apr 12, 2005)

Well now............
Just FGMO (Food Grade Mineral Oil) in a fogger (No thymol, turkey dressing, or mouthwash)....is it "legal" and has it been tested by the FDA?

Thanks in advance,
Scott


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## JJ (Jun 22, 2004)

Hi everyone, Talked to several people and they said the State Beekeeping meeting in Missouri went great. They said the people were great, super friendly. Take care JJ


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## daniel G. (Feb 24, 2005)

Do you guys realize that Apilife Var contains 74% Thymol? The percent mixed in the mineral oil is less than six percent. This mix is not all given to the hive at once either. I have seen the lab reports from Pedro' labs and they have not found any Thymol in was and honey. They did find fluvalant, and apistan, which he did not use fort he last 10 years. That tells me that those products were still in the wood and frames of the hives. Dan.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Just FGMO (Food Grade Mineral Oil) in a fogger (No thymol, turkey dressing, or mouthwash)....is it "legal" and has it been tested by the FDA?

Well, it is Food Grade. It is as legal as getting a little bit of food grade lubricant in your honey when you're extracting.

It has not been tested by the FDA.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

I can't imagine a problem with FGMO. The label says *intestinal lubricant* so if asked you could say you were giving the girls an intestinal lubricant!
In the *unlikely situation* you were asked about fogging FGMO I would not say I was using as a pesticide.


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## Sourwood (Mar 20, 2005)

After reading these posts I was curious if I could get a little more clarity on this issue. I am under the impression from this forum that anytime you apply a product to a hive to control pests and the product is not approved by the government to be used as a pesticide on bees it is illegal to do so. ie: Fogging bees with fgmo, or fgmo with thymol? 

We know that merely possessing thymol or fgmo is not illegal. Neither is a controlled substance. So it must be the delivery method of applying it to the bees that is illegal. Right? If so, can anyone reference the US Federal Code that applies? 

I have been fogging my bees with FGMO all year long. I just want to know if it could become a legal problem. I really couldn't see it becoming one, but you never know nowadays.


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## Jim Young (Aug 31, 2004)

http://www.epa.gov/compliance/civil/fifra/fifraenfstatreq.html

The Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA) of 1972; 7 U.S.C. s/s 136 et seq. (1972)

FIFRA Regulations (40 C.F.R. Parts 150-189)

Important FIFRA requirements are as follows:

No one may sell, distribute, or use a pesticide unless it is registered by the EPA or meets a specific exemption as described in the regulations. Registration includes approval by the EPA of the pesticide's label, which must give detailed instructions forits safe use.


EPA must classify each pesticide as either "general use," "restricted use," or both. "General use" pesticides may be applied by anyone, but "restricted use" pesticides may only be applied by certified applicators or persons working under the direct supervision of a certified applicator. Because there are only limited data for new chemicals, most pesticides are initially classified as restricted use. Applicators are certified by a state if the state operates a certification program approved by the EPA.


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## Jim Young (Aug 31, 2004)

Pesticide means any substance or mixture of substances intended 
for preventing, destroying, repelling, or mitigating any pest, or 
intended for use as a plant regulator, defoliant, or desiccant.


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## Sourwood (Mar 20, 2005)

Thanks.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks Jim! 

Also to take things a step further a beekeeper (without a pesticide applicators certification)can not use a pesticide to kill bees in say a house and charge a fee without a pesticide applicators certification.

Kind of a gray area if you are *not* charging and only trying to help kill the yellow jackets , hornets or bumble bees. Many pest control people do NOT do bees, hornets or yellow jackets(mostly due to liability issues).

They flatly refuse leaving the home owner in a tough spot. I have killed plenty of yellow jackets, bumble bees and hornets in houses with pesticdes after the exterminators refused to solve the problem. I always refuse payment but will except a *donation* to my beekeeping fund.

Once a family drove in and the mother had one eye swollen closed and the son was swollen up. Bumble bees had a nest in the ceiling of the only bathroom. Everytime they went in the bathroom they got stung. All the exterminators turned down the job. Took me about an hour to pull down the ceiling and remove about 300 bumble bees. First I had ever seen so high up but were coming in through the eve. No big deal but the tears of thanks from the mother in gratitude after the job was done would have been worth a fine or a couple days in the pokey!
Some (not all) pest control people are cold to people with bee problems (unless their own family members).


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## Kurt Bower (Aug 28, 2002)

Hi Bob!
I have to laugh a little. It seems as if you didnt have enough opponents on Bee-l so you came over to Beesource to stir things up.  
You and I went around on this very same issue a couple years back. I even offered to buy your fogger that now sits on the shelf but you wouldnt sell it (check the Bee-L archives).
Just wanted to let you know that I am still using FGMO with thymol (no supers on) as a stand alone method of treatment.
Bob, I believe I have stated it before but just to be sure: "Each beekeeper is ultimately responsible for the health of his or her bees" Dr. R has provided information that may help more or less depending on the method of application. If as beekeepers, we do not have the ability to use some common sense, then we probably wont have bees very long anyway. No bees, no honey; problem solved. 
If I am correct, any "approved" method of mite treatment can be abused. Do we not have varroa resistant to Apistan and Check-mite? Was this not likely due to commercial beekeepers leaving strips on too long or innappropriately dosing them? Is this not illegal? Where are the champions speaking out against this? You act as if only those fogging with thymol are acting in an illegal manner. I will put my honey up against any commercial beekeepers honey for purity and quality. 
I am sure you think that you are trying to help by taking Dr. R to task, but I do not believe that you are doing the good that you think you are. Many people were driven away from Bee-L because of the harsh and "know-it-all" attitude of the "moderators." Rest assured that will not happen here.


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## Bob Harrison (Mar 15, 2005)

Why are you not fogging *with supers on *as Dr. Pedro does? Surely you remember our discussion?

That's what this is about!

I am trying to take Dr. Pedro to task for his own good as I know he reads but does not post on beesource. I had kind of let him off the hook until he came to Missouri with his "use thymol while the supers are on crap". 

Why would you add thymol to the mix IF plain FGMO was working? Dr. Pedro swore the plain FGMO worked first. Then the cords were the answer. 
Now we have moved to fogging a chemical. Whats next a stronger chemical?


I am sure the thymol will finally make the FGMO work but at what price? contaminated comb?

Why not fogg malathian as test reports are the chemical kills varroa (varroa handbook 1988)? Perhaps your next choice after thymol? 

We have been very very lucky that what has happened with honey contamination from China & Argentina has not happened here from our own misuse of chemicals.

My bees need no treatment for varroa or tracheal mites. Yours and Dr. Pedro's need fogged every week. I have got better ways to spend my time.

I gave the fogger to my brother to fogg mosquito's with in the south. What I consider the best use for the product. 

I stand with the varroa tolerant bee ,small cell, and switch contaminated comb beekeepers. 

Like it or not when Dr. Pedro started recommending fogging thymol when the supers are on he stepped to the other side of the fence.


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## popscott (Apr 12, 2005)

"""""I am sure the thymol will finally make the FGMO work but at what price? contaminated comb?""""

Where are we getting the "contaminated comb"
stuff from. Has the comb actually been analysis as bee-ing contaminated?

The only analysis I've seen is from the Dr. R. site...
http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/thymolanalisis.htm


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## Kurt Bower (Aug 28, 2002)

Bob:

You dont read the posts very well.
I clearly made the statement that "Each beekeeper is ultimately responsible for the health of his or her bees". I am not here to defend anything because I do not need to. My methods speak for themselves. This is the part where common sense comes in.

You stated "Yours and Dr. Pedro's need fogged every week." Have you been peaking in my back yard? Your may need to have your eyes checked because I do not fog unless needed. You will never find me fogging every week.

You asked "Why would you add thymol to the mix IF plain FGMO was working?" Been there, talked about that. 

You stated "We have been very very lucky that what has happened with honey contamination from China & Argentina has not happened here from our own misuse of chemicals."(what you mean is FGMO and thymol) You never answered my question about the misuse of other "approved" treatments. If there is contamination to be found, I dont think the hobbiest that read this post will be your biggest concern. Since you have more time than I do because you dont fog perhaps you should pursue all the commercial beekeepers that have caused chemical tolerant strains of varroa mites.

I still stand behind the purity and quaility of my honey because I know exactly what I did and when I did it. I have even named each bee because I care.









Best regards,
Kurt


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Kurt says, ."(what you mean is FGMO and thymol) "

I have read many posts from Bob Harrison about misuse of chemicals that cause contamination where FGMO was never mentioned. I have learned much from his posts on the misuse of mite treatments and how that contaminates comb, honey, and the health of the colony. You only need to read some other threads outside of the FGMO section to read about contamination via other mite treatments. 

The points Bob makes in this thread is clear to me that the problem Dr. R. is doing is putting Thymol on the hives during the flow which anyone with common sense will know some of that will end in the honey. Is the amounts safe enough to compare to foods with thymol added? maybe but how much research has been done to show this? How much variation can occur during application due to strenth of the flow and other factors?

The legal end is also clear, if you put thymol on a hive to kill mites you are using it as an insecticide. If you wait till your honey is in a tank, then flavor it with some thymol you are using it as a food additive. There are rules for each activity and the one using it as an insecticide is not approved via fogging. Why would anyone disagree with that as a fact? 

Legal status does not say anything about its safety and we can argue its safety until we are blue in the face, but the threshold for taste and safety for tymol in honey hasn't been looked at very much while fogging during a honey flow. I would put no synthetic substance in my hive during a honey flow. If its safe to sprinkle my pancakes with thymol flavoring, I still wouldn't put it on my hive during a honey flow because I want my honey to taste exactly like honey. 

Also I want my bees to be able to handle mites enough on their own to not require treatments during the honey flow. I treat towards the end of summer, any hive that can't make it till then, good riddance. 

Thymol did very well on my mites this year via apilife-var.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Popscott 
this is the first time I have seen the test results from Dr. R. made in Spain. 
http://www.beesource.com/pov/rodriguez/thymolanalisis.htm

As far as I know Dr. R. used ONLY the fogger and FGMO for many years. He always told beekeepers on this forum that this is his only treatment in his bee yard. 

If Im wrong please correct me!

Now I wonder how could they find Amitraz (resulto 34) and Apistran (tau- fluvanilanato (resulto 27) in his combs?
Amitraz is a formamidine and used as a Varroa treatment in several European countries.

Would be nice if someone can give us a clear answer.


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## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

Axtman
These results are authentic as I have the original lab report.There is very good reason for these chemicals being detected in the lab sample submitted.The hives used in the trial were only on loan to Dr.Rodriguez.


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## Sourwood (Mar 20, 2005)

That was results published from analyzing comb I presume. I would be curious if there were results available from honey samples taken while supers were on the hive when fogging w/thymol took place.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Now I wonder how could they find Amitraz (resulto 34) and Apistran (tau- fluvanilanato (resulto 27) in his combs?

As mentioned above in this same thread:

>They did find fluvalant, and apistan, which he did not use fort he last 10 years. That tells me that those products were still in the wood and frames of the hives. 

As I understand it, he was using them, but stopped 10 years before that test.


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## popscott (Apr 12, 2005)

I called Mrs.Benjamin and she directed me to this site about the grant/study results from Matt done in Missouri....

http://agebb.missouri.edu/sustain/msada/queries/showaward.idc?recno=394&aw_year=1998 

"""" from Rob Harrison's post""""""
The study grant is named " Assessement of Mineral oil to control varroa mites on Honey Bees in Mid_Missouri"
The 1998 SARE grant was given to Matt Higdon 10701 Hecht Rd Hallsville,Mo. 65255
Matt has two Master beekeeping certifications (one is from EAS).
The complete study is published in the SARE grant publication ( 1998-2000 Sare grants) available from the Mo.Dept. of Ag (Joan Benjamin) 1-573-445-2194."""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""


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## popscott (Apr 12, 2005)

As I read this report NO FOGGER was used..... FGMO/sugar was just sprayed on with a spray bottle and also the FGMO was squirted out on the top bars???????? 

http://agebb.missouri.edu/sustain/msada/queries/showaward.idc?recno=394&aw_year=1998


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## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

popscott
Very true,that trial was done last century and you are correct in that a fogger was not used.Wet oil will kill bees for sure.This is where the fogger is unique technology as the applicator,if used correctly.The technology behind the fogger is ULV.No other method is likely to replicate this.Simply it only requires an infaticimal amount of product for the desired results,hence one would expect to achieve negligible residue.Residue testing was my first approach before pursuing FGMO towards ministerial approval in New Zealand.

[ December 01, 2005, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Bob Russell ]


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Honey contamination has to be a hot button issue if we have hope of a future in Beekeeping for other than pollination in this country. Having said that for those running any number on a sideline or commericial basis it is a constant battle against disease and pests. The rate at which acadamia and the government move in research/development and approval is abysmal. It would be much less frustrating for me to burn my hives than to watch them collapse while I wait for the FDA (They've done such a fine job with drug approvals). There are a ton of scary chemicals being used in large operations and it is a very tight lipped area of discussion. Thymol has been in research for years. In 1995/96 I was in a group that worked with then State Senator Kuhl to get funding for a rebirth of Dyce Lab and what was to be the great thymol research. Here we are 10 yrs later concerned about waiting for a target approval by FDA which no one is going to pay for, accurate research results, comb and honey contamination. In the mean time tens of thousands of hives have died from Varroa, we've been given an emergeny approval for an organophosphate (the real danger) which is widely used and the battle goes on.

Universities and the Gov't aren't going to solve our problems, their priorities are diffent as I found out with Cornell. Not bad, not supportive, just different. In light of that this place with 3000+ beekeepers has the potential for being the proving ground for what works and what is safe. It doesn't make sense to me to argue about the safety and legality of thymol while Bayer sells thousands of organophosphate strips to us to put in our hives. If Thymol/FGMO works (have we answered this yet?), even as part of an IPM strategy, theres no question in my mind it's better that Cumophos.

[ December 01, 2005, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

"If Thymol/FGMO works (have we answered this yet?)..."

Unfortunately, I dont think we actually have answered it yet, but what are we really arguing?

As I read these posts, those who disagree with FGMO/thymol seem to see it as a THE single protocol, and as a single protocol would take care of the problem, even through multiple or extended applications.

Those who agree with FGMO/thymol seem to see it as AN answer, one tactic in an arsenal of multiple approaches in a responsible IPM.

We're coming at this issue from different points of view, clouded by peripheral, but important sidebars, which if you hope for an answer to this issue or believe we have arrived at the point of agreement, I'd have to say, "No, we haven't answered it yet."

But I still have hope to find an answer, or even the point in which we agree to disagree. That is the beauty of these posts and forums. We can discuss openly (unless we start getting defensive to the criticism and offensive in our responses) and work through these issues. Many of these posts compelled me to look at my operation and try new things.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{Unfortunately, I dont think we actually have answered it yet, but what are we really arguing?}

I like to think we are debating these issues, to me arguing has a negative connotation and I hope everyone here is stating their point of view from the aspect of learning from each other.


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## PaulR (May 24, 2005)

Since Listerene contains thymol and Listerene is legal I propose we get the bees to gargle with Listerene. Maybe fresh breath is the secret to varroa control.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Joel,

Your right, the word usage of "arguing" is negative. 

It's hard to read between the lines on e-mail, that is, to understand what people are really saying, unless of course, you start typing WITH THE CAP LOCK ON. 

It does, at times, seem we all get a little defensive, even argumentative, when taken to task or if someone else has a different opinion, even an ignorant one.

What I like about these forums is the anonymous aspect that we all can speak our minds, even the ignorant ones and the obstinately opinionated one. It's a forum of free speech, and perhaps we learn from each other, and learn a little more about ourselves.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

>>>even the ignorant ones and the obstinately opinionated one<<<

Let's not get personal. It hurts my feelings. I can't help it if I was born that way.


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