# Queen castle design



## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

What's your favorite queen castle design or breeding nuc and reasons why


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Mine:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearing.htm#matingnucs


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

Thanks Michael great read. What's your thoughts on over wintering queens in this setup considering we only get down to -3c (-26f) one or two times a winter.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

The 2x4 queen castle is OK, but I find it too tight once things get rolling. I've since gone to 3x3 design (deep frames) with the same style movable partitions. I find the larger space (more bees) is easier to manage and more robust when flows slow down. Any of these full-frame solutions are going to be more resource intensive than the mini-nucs and alternate non-standard frame sizes, but for me its gets down to handling fewer different types of equipment. I've seen some pictures from Lauri of her equipment and she's got some very creative stuff. You could probably search and find her posts.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Thanks Michael great read. What's your thoughts on over wintering queens in this setup considering we only get down to -3c (-26f) one or two times a winter.

-3 C = + 27 F... I've never seen that mild of a winter nor tried to overwinter queens in it... but my guess is I could do it here with a little added heat (a terrarium heater would do) and maybe boost them with a few extra bees 3/4 of the way through the winter. We get -33 C... and I've done a queen bank half way through the winter, and then when we had some warm weather and someone wanted to buy the queens I sold them... I wouldn't try it without added heat here...


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I like mine but it is still a work in progress.

It is constructed from a standard ten frame deep. is divided length wise into 4 compartments per body. The ones I have now all have entrances in the top because for now they are temporary. eventually they will have an entrance facing in each direction. a different direction for each compartment. they hold full size deep or medium frames two per compartment.

As needed dividers can be removed converting two, two frame compartment into a 5 frame compartment. queens may never need to be moved to place them in a 5 frame nuc. I am working now on a way to add a 5 frame single nuc body on top of these. As colonies develop one of the two remaining queens will need to be moved. but the final divider will be removed providing the other queen with a full 10 frame body.
Basically it can go from a mating compartment to a full size hive.

It has no bottom board. but this is a feature I am moving toward with all my hives. a bottom board just strikes me as being far overboard method of providing a hole in the hive for the bees. Then it turns out to be a hole you have to fill in most off to keep it the correct size. Reminds me of the sort of things that woodworkers come up with out of a love for making things out of wood rather than something meant to serve the purpose of a hive entrance.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

I like the mini-frames (1/2 frame mediums) in a four way castle. Yes, it's additional equipment, but if you're rearing LOTS of queens, IMO it is the way to go. Lot easier to find that mated queen on or in a mini than in a full size box or frame. Again, at the end of the season, just place 10 frames in special built boxes, along with a queen, stack em up and overwinter and you've the resources right there to start the next season. We have at least one frame (with adhering bees) of brood to start each section of the castle the following season. Yes, you need to add some bees to the QC to start, but after that......they're fine. We do add additional frames to the castles as brood rearing begins .....

I think how you build/utilize your castles depends on the number of queens that you are rearing and how many rounds you're doing...


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Daniel Y said:


> I like mine but it is still a work in progress.
> 
> 
> 
> It has no bottom board. but this is a feature I am moving toward with all my hives. a bottom board just strikes me as being far overboard method of providing a hole in the hive for the bees. Then it turns out to be a hole you have to fill in most off to keep it the correct size. Reminds me of the sort of things that woodworkers come up with out of a love for making things out of wood rather than something meant to serve the purpose of a hive entrance.


You are making me think. I hate that. The only real purpose for a separate bottom board seems to be to make all the boxes in a lang system interchangeable. A permanent bottom brood box could be made and no bottom board would be necessary. This would improve the integrity of the hive during moves or animal invasions. 

A permanent bottom box could have a screen and a place for sticky board or oil pan, it just wouldn't be usable as an interchangeable box in the system. How often are these boxes rotated out anyway?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Mine are from ten frame boxes and have 3/4" boards for dividers and they are tighter than I like. If I were doing them over I would have used 1/4" or even 1/8" dividers. I also used canvas for the inner covers, which were cheap and easy, but would be hard to staple canvas to 1/4" plywood dividers, so I would probably make them of Luan now. Since I've standardized on eight frame boxes, I'd probably divide an eight frame into three sections now instead of ten frame, just so I don't have to stock another size cover etc. Also if the dividers are removable I could expand them as they grow by pulling out dividers. Also the 2 x 4 boxes get a bit heavy once they get established and I'd rather they were lighter.

I'd make the dividers stick up 1/4" above the sides of the box so the inner covers would set down into them. Maybe even 1/2" so I can prop one end up 1/4" to make the entrances.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I should probably point out that I made my medium 2 x 4 nucs out of deep ten frame boxes cut down to 7 1/4" deep. This was so the dividers would go all the way to the bottom and the bottom is nailed directly onto the box. If they were made out of medium boxes I would have to add at least 3/8" to the bottom of the box or to the top of the bottom board. Then the dividers would need to be notched into the bottom board...

If I were making them now in eight frame design, I'd probably cut them out of one by eights (not ripped) and make either a butt joint or a rabbet joint. Or cut them out of an eight frame deep. But the dividers often end up protruding in the handles so it would be nicer to use cleats for handles...


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Mr. Bush - I LOVE the quotes in the nucleus colony section of your website!

Mating / nuc' boxes: I love medium (6 5/8" deep) 10-frame Langstroth boxes with 3 slots cut vertically down the insides of the short ends. I'm phasing out the deep boxes as the combs get rotated out, going to all 6 5/8" Illinois medium boxes, all frames will be 6 1/4" deep mediums. 

The outside 2 slots in my boxes are for 3 x 3-frame mating arrangement. The middle slots are used for 2 x 5-frame nuc' arrangement or for 2 x 4-frame nuc' with frame feeders (I have not yet made partition feeders). There are 6 cork holes in each box, I keep LOTS of corks on hand!

I use 1/4" plywood hive partitions, special partition-fitted screened bottom boards (or partition-fitted double screen boards over a strong colony), narrow inner covers (3 x 3 and 2 x 5 sizes), which is a lot of wood work, but sure works out nicely. 

I find 3 medium frames really keeps small mating colonies home so they don't swarm off, I get extra time to judge the brood pattern, I use "Hive dummies" (empty boxes the size and shape of a frame of comb) like Dr. C.C. Miller used to manage dead air space.

For overwintering, I place a weak nuc' colony in a 2 x 5-frame medium above a strong colony, separated by a double screen board (fitted for the partition), top them with half-wide inner covers, and cover the whole thing with a 2" foam block, then the outer cover. The double screen boards don't have openings - I make the nuc' colonies use the cork holes only. 

If I raised them from my own queens and they don't have 4 frames of bees by Turkey Day (mid-November), they get combined for winter. Wild swarms get to overwinter as small as they wish, so I add hive dummies. Stronger nuc' colonies can stand alone, but I'm down here in balmy SoCal, so I get away with a lot, cold-country beek's have to think about heat management.

"Baby" or "mini"-nuc's are a lot of extra work and storage for a very small numerical advantage, and they don't seem to work out for the bees too well. True, some folks have gotten them to work, but for me they are way beyond the point of diminishing returns, for the work and for the storage and management of the mini frames the rest of the year ("Die, wax moth, DIE!"). 3 x 3 mating nuc's are simple, practical, fewer steps, less total work, more forgiving, and give better results. To me, it's a no-brainer, and I'm not even real big (like 700 to 1,000 hives) yet, when time will become even more important.

I'm going to love it even more when all the deeps are phased out. One box does any of 7 different functions, any frame fits any box because they are all mediums, and 3 mediums is almost exactly the same as 2 deeps in terms of square inches of comb. The only drawbacks are making the 1/3 and 1/2 inner covers, the partition-fitted SBB's and double screen boards, and all the corks, but then again I do not find wood work disagreeable at all.

I may go to 8-frame sized boxes as I grow older and more feeble, 40 lbs is easier than 50 lbs, but either is way better than 90 lbs deeps.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

By the way. I will add that my covers are a single piece for each compartment. I keep mating nucs under an awning so I don't use outer covers. the dividers stand about 1/2 inch above the height of the box. each cover is custom cut to fit it's compartment.

This top system causes some problems when it comes to transferring mated queens. not all the bees come out of any given compartment. We have to give the stragglers time to find there way back to the queen. it can become something of a pain. Usually we just set the nuc we placed the queen in over the open compartment and let it set. But it is a big pain when you have 4 compartments per box to get checked.

I also agree with Michael on the things getting tight issue. My dividers are 1/4 inch for this reason.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I got to speak to Bryon Fisher (The person who introduced me to queen castles) last night at the bee club. He said his queen castles have just a solid piece of 1/4" plywood permanently attached to the bottom. There are no slots in the bottom for the division boards, they just fit flush against the plywood. They are in the slots on the front and back of the hive of course.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Unless you know how to do it. I would not suggest trying to make the slots in the bottom piece. You have to make adjustments for where the slots actually line up once the box is assembled. How you do that depends on how you make your boxes.

I will offer these tips. Cut the groove in all the pieces at one time. Make sure things are dead on square. Practice on scrap first. Think over everything carefully. If you cut a 1/4 inch deep groove in the bottom of your box. you need to remember that your dividers just got 1/4 inch deeper. a 1/4 inch groove in the ends means your divider just got 1/2 inch longer. You want a slip fit. this means you cut dividers just a little short of what the measurement for them is. Allow for wood expansion. this will be hardest thing for most to allow for. Dividers should fit loose but leave no space for bees to get through. That is the advantage of slots on all 4 sides of the divider. never any space for bees to pass.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I have decided to leave the bottom flat. I am going to use plastic for the dividers, but I assume there will still be some expansion/contraction in the wooden parts. I figure the bees will probably propolize the joints anyway, just to make my life a little harder.


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

Thanks for the great feed back guys heaps of great ideas. A couple of questions, If you a stacking the nucs on top of each other I see in Michaels pic that his mating nucs are 
not painted different colours would you not get virgins coming back for mating flights ending up in the wrong hive? I always vent the bottom boards on my hives for good ventilation 
If I was to do this for my mating nucs and stacked them on top of each other would there be a problem with the queens pheromones going through the nucs and confusing things?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I was concerned about that when I first built my castles. I was told by others that queens finding the right opening is not to much of a problem. It turns out they are right. I don't knwo if they do it by sound. smell or sight. but they know where to go.


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

Any thought's on the vent holes and the pheromones I guess it cant be a problem as inner covers are not sealed air tight and the pheromones can cross
over there.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Not sure what to think of the pheromone thing. One I understand that pheromones suppress the ovaries of the workers. I don't think it is the pheromones form any particular queen. Some say that the pheromones are what assure the hive that they have a queen. again I am not certain those pheromones need to be from any particular queen. Multiple queen colonies are not unknown and at least under particular conditions works will actually defend new or developed queens from the hives queen. So just what they will attack and what they will defend is an on again off again sort of thing.

In all I would not expect any more of a problem form having queens in close proximity because they are stacked than you have with them side by side in a castle.

I have heard others mention that stacking hive can result in queens being abandoned by the workers and them freezing. so just make sure the queen can remain with the cluster wherever it goes and that you do not allow queens to come into contact. not even through a single screen. A double screen division board for example.


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## Daznz (Oct 18, 2014)

Cheers thanks for that Daniel


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