# 9 frames in a 10 frame box?



## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

I used to run 9 frames in my honey supers when I used to use 10 frame equipment. Now I use 7 frames in my honey supers on my 8 frame equipment. Once the bees have filled in the honey above their brood nest they will store nothing but honey in supers above that (most of the time anyway!). By having that extra space between the frames the bees will draw out the comb way out from the edge of the frames(nice tall cappings). This makes it very easy to cut the cappings off the comb if you're extracting honey. It works very well but some folks hate it. I tend to like it.

If you're going to have 9 frame honey supers you better use fully drawn frames of comb or you will have a mess. The fully drawn comb encourages the bees to draw taller cappings on the frames in this spread out affair. If you do this with undrawn frames you'll have a bunch of burr and cross comb.

I'm not sure why you'd want to do this on a deep hove body over winter. Anyone have any input?


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

I wouldn't on brood nest or anything that may be brood nest in the future... makes it harder to keep brood warm, promotes more burr comb and drones....

Keep 10 frames (or 8) in teh brood nest

9 frames in honey supers is fine, they will draw the cells for food storage out taller.... makes easier uncapping and according to the math a med super holds about 9 more pounds of honey this way..... but of course if you want lighter supers .......:scratch:


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_Keep 10 frames (or 8) in teh brood nest_

Don't you mean 10 or 11 frames in a broodnest with Langstroth 10 frame boxes?

Once comb is already drawn, many people put 8 or 9 frames in honey supers. The bees just draw out the cells longer. It makes it easier to uncap, and you can extract faster. 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

sorry ment 10 in a ten frame box, 8 in an 8 frame....

11, another topic wasn't headed there in this post..... never tried it myself.... logic is okay, just the thought of cutting down frames.....AGGGGGGGGGG


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

We run 9 frames of brood in the ten frame hive bodies. Your space is the same as you push the frames together towards the center so your bee space is off on the outside edge and no where else. We do this so when we go to inspect and remove frames there is room to pry the frames apart and lots of space to remove the frames quickly without the risk of rolling bees or damaging brood or most important the queen. Works well...hardly any burr comb on the edges. We also run 9 frames in our 10 frame supers and space they evenly...this allows the bees to really pull out the honey supers. Works great.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

This question seems to come up a lot. The question is usually something like "should I put 9 or 10 frames in my supers?" or "should I put 9 or 10 frames in my brood boxes?"

My answer for the brood boxes is that I put 11 in. At least in a ten frame box. I shave the ends down in order to do this and I do it because it's the spacing the bees use if you let them. But 10 will do. They should be tightly together in the center, and not spaced out evenly. They are already further apart than the bees would prefer and spacing them any further usually results in burr comb or even an extra comb in between the frames. The theory of doing 9 in the brood box is that there will be more cluster space, less swarming and less rolling of bees. The reality, in my experience, is that it requires more bees to keep the brood warm, the surface of the combs is more irregular and this causes more rolling of the bees when removing frames. This irregularity is due to the fact that honey storage comb can vary in thickness but brood comb is always the same thickness. The results are that where they have honey and you have 9 frames, they have extra room to fill and they fill it with honey. If they have brood then it is not as fat as the honey. I tried 9 frames in the brood nest and was not impressed. I now have eight frame boxes and I have 9 frames in them (which requires shaving the end bars down). At 11 in a ten-frame box you get very flat consistent comb and you get smaller cell size more easily. 

My answer for the supers is that ONCE THEY ARE DRAWN you can put 9 or even 8 in the ten frame supers with good effect as the combs will just be thicker. But when it's bare foundation, the bees will often mess up the comb if you space it more than ten. Ten frames of bare foundation should always be tightly together in the middle of either a super or a brood box in order to prevent the bees from attempting to build a comb between the foundations instead of on them. With eight frame boxes you can do seven drawn combs or even six.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

One of the few subjects where MB and I have different opinions. Have had only two cases of wacko comb drawn in 9 frame spacing in literally thousands drawn. That low probability is worth the risk from my viewpoint. It may be area specific. I enjoy eastern woodland field forage support during the broodnest expansion period, whereas Micheal is located in mostly prairie agricultural surroundings. Only guessing here, but his area might have intermittent forage where mine is continuous.

When I had more colonies than could be properly cared for with a forty-hour job, expediency was mandatory. A frame of brood could be pulled from the middle of the brood nest, inspected, and replaced in less than a minute.
I suspect that I would be rebuilding the colony while the ten frame beek would still be trying to get a frame of brood in the daylight.

The reason 9 frame spacers are used from bottom to top is that it improves up/down traffic flow. In-line comb doesn't creat bottlenecks to impede that traffic.

Walt


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The odds change a lot between plastic and wax.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

wcubed said:


> .
> 
> The reason 9 frame spacers are used from bottom to top is that it improves up/down traffic flow. In-line comb doesn't creat bottlenecks to impede that traffic.
> 
> Walt


what about the data that says tehy do better keeping brood warm with 11 frames???


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

GMC
Glad you asked. It's not so much a matter of keeping the brood warm as it is the number of cells in a given cluster size. The colony can only rear brood in the warmed cluster volume. The number of cells available for brood in a given cluster is about 13% more for 10 frame spacing (didn't check 11.) Obviously, build up is slowed by that differential. 

Not a problem for me. With only two brood cycles in the build up from field pollen availability to repro c/o we can get the equivalent of three deeps of brood. Checkerboarding accelerates the build up. The 13% differential pales to insignificant. Don't know what I would do with more bees.

When the colony gets to storing overhead is the time that in-line comb pays off. An intense population is free to move up/down freely. Bottle necks impede that traffic.

Thanks for asking.
Walt


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Thanks for the thoughts walt, I definatly agree with the alingment allowing faster travel, (I use top entrances for the same reason..)

Not sure how checkerboarding speeds brood cycles?? wouldn't that slow them down as they cant care for the brood properly???

Always used checkeboarding as swarm control. not as a brood booster???

More bees, Thats my goal!.... anything to help that I am all for!


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Where to start? Don't want to get too basic. 
CB is performed in overhead capped honey. If your brood is already in the top box in late winter, There is little capped honey to open up. The intent is break up the overhead honey reserve that limits brood nest expansion and starts swarm prep of backfilling.

If the brood nest is in the lower chamber and there is a box of capped honey above, that is when CB with empty comb works well.

The colony expanding the brood nest in late winter into solid overhead honey must consume that honey to grow upward. Thinning that honey to feed consistency as they go, it is used to feed the colony and brood. When the honey is thinned with empty comb consumption is faster, speeding up expansion. 

However, the expansion rate is not quite doubled. If field nectar and flying weather support it, they will immediatly put nectar in the empty cells within the cluster on a priority basis. They can't stand empty cells in the interior of the cluster. So, the doubling of expansion rate is reduced by the nutrition added by nectar in the previously empty cells. Expansion is still much faster than building into solid honey.

Walt


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Hadn't viewed it that way Walt, Thanks!

Let me recap and see if I have your thought correct,

When the brood is limited by the hoey cap, then checkerboarding both opens it up, and speeds teh rate of honey consumption, therby creating more brood space. (presumably to keep warm?)
Which in turn obviously speeds up brood.

Assuming that then the checkerboarding is not a help if they have plenty of open space?


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

makes it harder to keep brood warm
No.
Actually it makes it easier
Ernie


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Correct. If the empty comb above is in contact with the brood nest. Reversal of the empty deep from below normally does that. But you need to add a super of comb at the same time, or they will rebuild the overhead reserve with nectar and stop brood nest expansion and start swarm preps.
Walt


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## BigDaddyDS (Aug 28, 2007)

In my personal experience, there are advantages to running 9 frames in 10 frame equipment. Brood rearing, not withstanding, I find that the extra volume of honey that is stored in a 9 frame super exceeds that which can be stored within 10 frames.

But, I run BOTH 10 frame and 9 frame hives, and neither are mixed.

It's necessitated by three reasons: My 10 frame hives are drawing out new foundation. If given 9 frames of new foundation, there's too much space allowed to the bees, and you can expect a lot of burr comb to be built, in addition to wavy comb and some pretty far out patterns. Once the comb is drawn straight at 10 frame, a frame can be eliminated and they'll draw the comb deeper, making your hive 9 frame.

The second reason is to facilitate travel during the winter. I feel that if the frames "line up" from box to box, this makes it easier for the cluster to travel, without breaking the cluster. Hence the reason that 10 frame hives are 10 frame only, and not mixed with a 9 frame super. This is useful in cold climates, such as Michigan. I go a step farther and don't break the boxes apart once fall arrives, hoping for burr comb from the bottoms of the top super to touch the top bars of the frames below. In essence, this makes for one long continuous comb. This train of thought is seconded by Brother Adam, who used extra deep modified Dadant frames in his hives.

The last reason to not mix 10 frame and 9 frame equipment is for IPM application of powdered sugar. Simply, your powdered sugar mite drop count is skewed if half of your sugar and mites wind up on the top bars of the frames below. 

Happy beekeeping,
DS


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