# modified TBH



## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

Az Jim 


Here are some discussions of long hives: http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000219.html http://www.beesource.com/eob/condo/index.htm http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000210.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000440.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum16/HTML/000024.html http://www.beesource.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000122.html 
http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/bush/index.htm 

http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/bush_bees.htm 


Terry


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I didn't have luck with a deep with top bars, but I've had good luck with a medium with top bars. Yes you can put a super on as long as the bees have some way to get to it. A gap in front of the first bar works.

If you're working AHB then I think I'd either make just top bars and retire the frames, or add a 1 3/8" (35mm) strip to the top bar to make it close everything up. If there is any kind of gap at the top I'm afraid the communication will improve and the disposition of the bees will be worse. Having a strip that is not attached to the top bar (if you are using frames) will be more difficult to work.


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## Az Jim (Mar 19, 2005)

Michael and all

What are the dimensions of the medium frames, deep frames. I need to limit the weight so they are easier to move by myself and the deep seem as if it will get very heavy in a hurry. I think I will carry supers for honey production. 

Is there some comments concerning entry placement and size? I am fighting high temps, over 90 at some nights, so ventillation is necessary. Not so necessary during the winter because it seldom goes below 25 at night and then warms up to the low 40's during the day.

I think I will stay with the Italians. I have worked some of them barehanded with a head net but with the Africans a full suit is vital.

What are the small black bees I keep reading about. Out here most of our swarms are Africans (AHB? is thie correct abreviation) and are destroyed when found in a urban setting. Some of the bee keepers have AHB and move them from AZ to Mont. Thank God, they haven't been able to overwinter in the colder locations. I envy you people that domn't have them in your area. They require learning an entirely new way to handle them and we are finding out new traits all the time. 

Thx AZ Jim


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What are the dimensions of the medium frames, deep frames.

Deep frames are 9 1/4"
Medium frames are 6 1/4"

>I need to limit the weight so they are easier to move by myself and the deep seem as if it will get very heavy in a hurry. I think I will carry supers for honey production. 

I like having all the same size frames and I like to minimize the weight of a super, so mine are virtually all mediums.

>Is there some comments concerning entry placement and size?

Basically a booming hive needs an entrance the width of the hive during the flow. I put mine on top to keep the skunks out. If you don't have problems with skunks it may not matter much.

>I am fighting high temps, over 90 at some nights, so ventillation is necessary.

I make my long TTBH with a Screened Bottom Board running the length of the hive, so I can create as much ventilation as I want. Also the top entrance, combined with the SBB allows plenty of ventilation.

>but with the Africans a full suit is vital.

Definitely.

>What are the small black bees I keep reading about.

Don't know about your location. I find a lot of them here surviving the mites and the winters.

>Out here most of our swarms are Africans (AHB? is thie correct abreviation)

Yes, that is correct.

>Some of the bee keepers have AHB and move them from AZ to Mont. Thank God, they haven't been able to overwinter in the colder locations.

Why do they take them to MT if they can't survive the winter there? Are you sure they can't live in colder locations? After having some "Buckfasts" from Texas go postal on me after overwintering here, I'm not so sure about that.


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## Az Jim (Mar 19, 2005)

Michael

The keepers taking the bees to Mont are using them for pollination and honey production. They bring them back to Az in the fall but they always lose a few swarms during the trip.

It has been our experience that the AHB have not survived the higher elevations which are colder. In Flagstaff, about 7000 ft, is cold and snowy. Up to this point, we do not believe they have survived. Also, for the last 10 years we have been having a severe drought. I had bee starve last year when I was sick and unable to check them for about 2 months. They had 5 full shallow supers of honey and a fair flow when I took them up there but it got hot and the flow stopped suddenly.

When it gets hot, the flow can stop suddenly but it will be good 1000-15000 ft higher. From Phoenix to about 80 miles up the road, it goes from about 1000 ft to a little over 5500 ft. That is about the limit I am willing to go. After the weather cools and the rains start, we get another lesser flow and I bring my hives back. That is why I am so interested in the moveable TBH.

The AHB swarms a lot and will abscond at the drop of a hat. They will also swarm in late summer. As a consequence, so far, their hives have a tendency to be smaller and they do not have time to build enough reserves to survive the winter. They will swarm in the desert and when summer comes, there may not be any water so they die. (Some permanent springs have dried up in the last couple of years, so the wildlife and open range cattle have been severely stressed.)

This year has been the exception. We have had more rain already this year than we have had in the last 2 years combined. We pray that it will keep up for at least a couple of more months, especially in the high country giving us a great snow pack, Now if it will only melt slowly with no wind to evaporate it before it sinks in.
With the extra rain and the profusion of desert flowers, it is possible a few AHB will survive at the higher, colder elevations. 
Bees have started swarming early. I have removed 3 just with my neighbors. Some fire depts have already removed over 100 swarms this year and the season has barely started. Bee removal companies are putting on extra trucks to handle the work. 

Verroa mites have been bad here and have killed off a large percentage of the feral hives. However, it appears that the AHB do better with the mites because they make a smaller brood comb 
The combination of drought and AHB have killed off most of the Italian feral hives. That is the reason we kill most swarms before they turn nasty. 

The Buckfasts bees could very well be AHB. I know they are all along the border with Mexico and I think they have advances a couple hundred miles north. They are spreading all along the warmer southern states.

If your bee is about 10% smaller than your normal bee, and is darker to black with a NASTY disposition about a month after you hive the swarm, there is a good possibility they are AHB. Contact your local bee lab or extension agent to have a sample tested to see if it is AHB. If it is, you are in for a major re-education in the bee keeping business. 

I got back into it as a hobby after about 15 years traveling for Uncle Sam, USAF. I was stunned the first time I went into a bee yard that contained AHB. I walked about 1/4 mi, through brush to try to get away from them before I got back to the truck. There were about 4-6 bees flying around me. As I took off my suit, a whole lot more showed up. I slammed the door and rolled up the windows. They gathered outside and said, "we have him trapped, now lets find a way to get him." The bee keeper I was with laughed and told me this was nothing, I needed to work them when they are really nasty. 

We are finding out new things all the time, like a fertile egglaying worker will go with a small swarm (about 500-1000 bees) and supercede your hive if it is a little weak. A nice calm hive you worked a three weeks ago barehanded will now mob you. We think that about a month after the laying worker takes over the hive, they will re-queen with their own AHB queen. At this point, it is almost impossible to requeen with an Italian as they will kill her and try to make their own queen. Sometimes, it is easier to kill off the field bees leaving nothing but house bees and try a split. Usually, you need at least two frames of larvae, from eggs to capped brood, along with all the nurse bees on the frames to protect the new queen. Even so, the cape bee may try to kill the new queen and re-queen itself using newly developed AHB fertile worker. These bees are weird and bear much watching.

Hope this bit of info does you absolutely NO good because it does not apply. 
But, check with your bee lab to be sure.

Az Jim


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My bees are smaller because of natural comb and small cell comb. They were when they were Carni's and Buckfasts. They are now that they are black ferals. Once in a while one of the black ferals are a bit hot, but most are fine. But then once in a while one of the Italians or Carni's are a bit hot too.

None of these compare to the Buckfasts that went postal. They swarmed in the middle of a drought in late August and then went viscious on me. And they were NOT small bees. They were beyond any hot bees I've seen before or since.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Thanks for the report Jim, very interesting. I can understand why Top Bar Hives may provide some value when dealing with AHB.

It is my understanding that a tob bar hive, by definition, lacks frames. It has just top bars. What I hear you saying is that you want to use your medium super frames in a long hive configuration. 

TO get the top bar value of this, it seems to me that you need to modify your frame top bars to eliminate the bee space, or else provide a cover or strip of scrap above the frame top bar ends. 

You would leave the ends of the top bars open at one end so they could be supered.

might even be possible to build a slide in bee escape when ready to harvest your supers.

So basically you are modifying your Lang frames to act like top bars. You could alternate empty top bars between your drawn frames and they would probably draw them out nice and straight, eventually you could go to just top bars if you wanted to. But not sure what advantage that would have for you other than cost.

As for transportation, other than to suggest a trailer mounted hoist, to permit you to pick up the entire hive, you could build stands so the hives were about the same heigth as your pickup truck bed or trailer. That way you could slide them off and on the stands from the pick up. Even mount a small winch to your pickup to pull them off, or get rollers...
roller stand 
You could make the stands shorter than the hive, so the end of the hive extended out a little. Then build / buy a portable set of rollers like they have for outfeed tables of table saws. you would raise up one end of your hive, slide the outfeed rollers underneath one end, back the pickup up to the other end of the roller, then just roll on to the pickup.

Or you could buy just two rollers and make up a mounting system to add the roller to the hive body for transporation purposes.


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## Az Jim (Mar 19, 2005)

I still don't know what a Buckfast is. Where do they come from? Are they bred specifically in the US or are they a hybrid of something else. Tha AHB crossed with a Carni, Russ or Italian is ok the first generation. The second generation is the bad one.
The AHB drone is smaller , stronger, and faster and can fly higher than the larger Ital, Carni and Russ drones. That is why young queens are fertilized primarily by the AHB. Some of the young queens have the chacteristics of the Ital but the temperament of the AHB. Some of the Ital, etc look similar to the AHB but have the calm tempermanent Occasionally, they can be Hot but nothing like the AHB which gets HOT!!!. That's why, when we (Hobbists) requeen, we mark them so we know if they have been superceeded. It's easier to keep track of what we have in our hives. 
A lot of our commercial keepers use a proven Italian or Cornelian as a brood queen and make hundreds of queens. They transfer the queen cells to nukes and/or established hives just before they hatch and so requeen that way. This generation will be 1/2 AHB and be relatively calm. Its the next generation you have to look out for. A lot of hives are requeened annually with the F1 hybrid. This is labor and time intensive, so some keepers just let their hives alone and use the AHB. They are pollinators only and are in and out of the fields before the bees cause a problem. Usually, there is no one the fields during pollination nor are they spraying. 
The AHB will readily swarm and/or abscond but this is the cost of doing business. They are very hard workers so that makes up for the hassle of losing a hive occasionally. A 5 frame nuke full of bees is easy to build up and will do almost as much work as a full Italian. Do the math and you see why some commercial operators use the AHB.  

Most of the information I am passing along comes from keepers much more experienced than I am. I get a lot if info at the club meetings, from the Carl Hayden Bee Lab in Tucson and some from bitter experience. 

I saw a robbing frenzy once involving the AHB. About 3 gal of honey was spilled on the ground and not cleaned up during a period when the flow had temporarily stopped, in Aug before the fall flow started after the summer rains, which did not occur that year. Drought remember. I walked into the area to clean it up and decided I did not want anything to do with it. I walked about 100 yds away and stood there. I slowly clapped my hands together in front of my face for about 5 minutes. The next day, I came back and looked at whe dead bees. There was a thousand or more in a circle about 2 ft in diameter. These were the ones that followed me from the spill site. Finally, I went into a dark barn and left the door open. They went back outside. About 15 min later, I started out the door and a bunch jumped me again. I dropped all my equipment in the shed and went out the back door at a run and jumped into my truck. Next day, I found two of the feral colonies and destroyed them. Didn't get them all beacuse there was still bees there a week later but they were calmer. 
I can't emphasize how dangerous these bees are. However, if they are handled intelligently, they can be good bees for a rural area where nothing disturbs them except the keeper. It is not necessary to fear them, just be very cautious and 'cuz they bear watching closely. 

Our biggest problem is the Media and the KILLER BEES. We also have brr removal companies that give out erronious information just to scare people I gues. They have terrified the public to the point that local governments have banned bee within the city limits. Makes it real hard to keep bees. If someone complaigns, the bees have to go, so it is necessary to keep very good relations with your neighbors. I lost my bback yard bees because my neighbor saw three buzzing around his garbage can. He complained to the city. Never mind there are some feral bees around, I could not convince him we needed bees for his peach and apricot trees. Maybe this fall when he does not get a crop, he will let me bring them back. Otherwise I may get out of bees because I really enjoy watching them go in and out of the hive and I like the odor of the working hive. It is very calming. 
Sorry, I get worked up on this topic.

Back to the original topic. I think I I have seem the answer already but... What will happen if I cut my long box on the Langs specs and leave a narrow bee space above the frames for ventillation like you find in the langs hives. Then put on narrow slats similar to the TBH and work it like a TBH from one end. Will the bees fill that space with propolis.

I talked to a very good keeper yesterday. He suggested I build a bottomless hive to help control Verroa Mites. I think I will design a sliding board that goes in easily for when I am moving my hives. I can also slide the board in, leaving a small gap, if I have a weak hive or new hive, so the hive can protect itself from robbers. Looks like 1/4" hardware cloth would work well. I'll try to let you know how this works out later in the season.

The reason I want the long hive is because of two legged predators. With its low profile, if I paint it light brown with dark stripes and patches, it will be almos invisible if I put it under a bush. We have a lot of BLM and Gov open range around here. There are lots of hikers, hunters, and atv riders in areas where I would place the hives. They find the hive and it's gone. 
I think I will try to find some of the corrogated poly, curve it into an arc and paint it camo to cover the hives. This will provide shade and also help hide the hives. I can change this camo easily and cheaply (there are a few signs around for political candidates that have not been picked up) to match the vegetation found at different altitudes.

Az Jim


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## Az Jim (Mar 19, 2005)

I still don't know what a Buckfast is. Where do they come from? Are they bred specifically in the US or are they a hybrid of something else. Tha AHB crossed with a Carni, Russ or Italian is ok the first generation. The second generation is the bad one.
The AHB drone is smaller , stronger, and faster and can fly higher than the larger Ital, Carni and Russ drones. That is why young queens are fertilized primarily by the AHB. Some of the young queens have the chacteristics of the Ital but the temperament of the AHB. Some of the Ital, etc look similar to the AHB but have the calm tempermanent Occasionally, they can be Hot but nothing like the AHB which gets HOT!!!. That's why, when we (Hobbists) requeen, we mark them so we know if they have been superceeded. It's easier to keep track of what we have in our hives. 
A lot of our commercial keepers use a proven Italian or Cornelian as a brood queen and make hundreds of queens. They transfer the queen cells to nukes and/or established hives just before they hatch and so requeen that way. This generation will be 1/2 AHB and be relatively calm. Its the next generation you have to look out for. A lot of hives are requeened annually with the F1 hybrid. This is labor and time intensive, so some keepers just let their hives alone and use the AHB. They are pollinators only and are in and out of the fields before the bees cause a problem. Usually, there is no one the fields during pollination nor are they spraying. 
The AHB will readily swarm and/or abscond but this is the cost of doing business. They are very hard workers so that makes up for the hassle of losing a hive occasionally. A 5 frame nuke full of bees is easy to build up and will do almost as much work as a full Italian. Do the math and you see why some commercial operators use the AHB. 

Most of the information I am passing along comes from keepers much more experienced than I am. I get a lot if info at the club meetings, from the Carl Hayden Bee Lab in Tucson and some from bitter experience. 

I saw a robbing frenzy once involving the AHB. About 3 gal of honey was spilled on the ground and not cleaned up during a period when the flow had temporarily stopped, in Aug before the fall flow started after the summer rains, which did not occur that year. Drought remember. I walked into the area to clean it up and decided I did not want anything to do with it. I walked about 100 yds away and stood there. I slowly clapped my hands together in front of my face for about 5 minutes. The next day, I came back and looked at whe dead bees. There was a thousand or more in a circle about 2 ft in diameter. These were the ones that followed me from the spill site. Finally, I went into a dark barn and left the door open. They went back outside. About 15 min later, I started out the door and a bunch jumped me again. I dropped all my equipment in the shed and went out the back door at a run and jumped into my truck. Next day, I found two of the feral colonies and destroyed them. Didn't get them all beacuse there was still bees there a week later but they were calmer. 
I can't emphasize how dangerous these bees are. However, if they are handled intelligently, they can be good bees for a rural area where nothing disturbs them except the keeper. It is not necessary to fear them, just be very cautious and 'cuz they bear watching closely. 

Our biggest problem is the Media and the KILLER BEES. We also have brr removal companies that give out erronious information just to scare people I gues. They have terrified the public to the point that local governments have banned bee within the city limits. Makes it real hard to keep bees. If someone complaigns, the bees have to go, so it is necessary to keep very good relations with your neighbors. I lost my bback yard bees because my neighbor saw three buzzing around his garbage can. He complained to the city. Never mind there are some feral bees around, I could not convince him we needed bees for his peach and apricot trees. Maybe this fall when he does not get a crop, he will let me bring them back. Otherwise I may get out of bees because I really enjoy watching them go in and out of the hive and I like the odor of the working hive. It is very calming. 
Sorry, I get worked up on this topic.

Back to the original topic. I think I I have seem the answer already but... What will happen if I cut my long box on the Langs specs and leave a narrow bee space above the frames for ventillation like you find in the langs hives. Then put on narrow slats similar to the TBH and work it like a TBH from one end. Will the bees fill that space with propolis.

I talked to a very good keeper yesterday. He suggested I build a bottomless hive to help control Verroa Mites. I think I will design a sliding board that goes in easily for when I am moving my hives. I can also slide the board in, leaving a small gap, if I have a weak hive or new hive, so the hive can protect itself from robbers. Looks like 1/4" hardware cloth would work well. I'll try to let you know how this works out later in the season.

The reason I want the long hive is because of two legged predators. With its low profile, if I paint it light brown with dark stripes and patches, it will be almos invisible if I put it under a bush. We have a lot of BLM and Gov open range around here. There are lots of hikers, hunters, and atv riders in areas where I would place the hives. They find the hive and it's gone. 
I think I will try to find some of the corrogated poly, curve it into an arc and paint it camo to cover the hives. This will provide shade and also help hide the hives. I can change this camo easily and cheaply (there are a few signs around for political candidates that have not been picked up) to match the vegetation found at different altitudes.

Az Jim


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I still don't know what a Buckfast is. Where do they come from?

Buckfast Abbey in England originally. Most here come from one of the Weaver bros in Texas.

>Are they bred specifically in the US or are they a hybrid of something else.

They are a breed that was made by mixing several strains including the native English bee, the Italians and the Carniolans.

>Tha AHB crossed with a Carni, Russ or Italian is ok the first generation. The second generation is the bad one.

That's what I'm guessing happened with the Buckfast. They were ok until they swarmed and the 2nd generation happened.

>The AHB drone is smaller , stronger, and faster and can fly higher than the larger Ital, Carni and Russ drones.

But the Ital, Cani and Russ are only larger because of the 5.4mm foundation "we" use. If we use smaller foundation they are smaller too.

>That is why young queens are fertilized primarily by the AHB.

Correct. But if you raise small cell bees your drones could have that same advantage.


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## Az Jim (Mar 19, 2005)

Hey Michael.

This must be a pretty good design. I put it together except for the screen on the bottom and painted it. I figured the paint needed to dry for a week before I put bees in it. A swarm moved in this afternoon. Another swarm moved into a pile of old supers, I have stacked in an open shed. I would get rid of the immediately, but a hen is setting eggs right beside it. The eggs are due to hatch the 29th. I guess I'll get rid of them right after the eggs hatch, sooner if I have a problem. 

Told you they are swarming early here 

Az Jim


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Cool.


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