# Mating Nucs



## marshmasterpat

A few questions here, looking for guidance, not an exact figure.

With the mini mating nucs, how many bees are needed for those to be successful. A pint full, Quart can (don't say coffee cup, heck I came from Cajun land were they melted spoons in some of the coffee, so some cups are the size a 1/4 measuring cup it didn't eat your stomach out and then you have that new supposed great stuff mixed latte, chocolate, mint spiced monkey sorted bean coffee in mugs that take 2 measuring cups to fill. I want a actual measurement estimate.) 

If I am not looking at honey production concerns this year and would like to get a large batch of queens (large for me = 20 to 35) started in mini mating nucs, and then after she is laying, shift them into nucs. These would catch the main flow, hopefully build and then catch the fall flow of goldenrod. Might try to overwinter the queens or replace, just trying to jump start a number of smaller hives. Has anyone tried this with success and maybe have some tips. 

Thank again


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## beebreeder

The amount of bees you need to make up a mating nuc depends on the size of the nuc! In the uk ther are numerous sizes! Mostly polystyrene unless they are home built with half size frames. A bit mor info on the type of box will help with the right amount of bees.


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## Michael Palmer

Why do you want to use mini-nucs if you're just going to shift them into nucs to catch the main flow. Just get your queens mated in the nucs in the first place.


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## beebreeder

Mike, what do you find? I find queens mated in smaller boxes come into lay faster,due to the need for brood, in Nucs there is still a lot of nurse bees and brood hatching so there does not seem to be the same urgency, Beeuk and I have had this discussion
Kev


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## ruthiesbees

I'm replying just so I can follow the thread. I bought a mini mating nuc myself this year. I have heard 2 cups of bees for the small styrene nuc. My question is how to measure that amount. I'm assuming you brush them off frames so you are getting nurse bees.


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## beebreeder

Depends how many you are filling, for a small amount you could put a brood on a floor with closed entrance then qx another brood, find queen and put her and frame to one side and shake enough frames off, the nurse bees go for the dark, the drones and foragers fly home, then scoop your bees up and drop them into the poly through the open floor upside down, a mist spray will help stop them flying, nor how I do it but then I never fill one at a time.


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## Michael Palmer

beebreeder said:


> Mike, what do you find? I find queens mated in smaller boxes come into lay faster,due to the need for brood, in Nucs there is still a lot of nurse bees and brood hatching so there does not seem to be the same urgency, Beeuk and I have had this discussion
> Kev


I agree that very strong shook swarms take longer to get an introduced queue laying. Never compared mini nucs and standard nucs, so I can't say.


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## marshmasterpat

Michael Palmer said:


> Why do you want to use mini-nucs if you're just going to shift them into nucs to catch the main flow. Just get your queens mated in the nucs in the first place.


If I use a box split into 4 compartments (using mini frames), I can set up 5 to 8 of these and try to raise 20 to 32 queens. If I have 50% success, then I need to move only 5 to 8 of them into nucs, and the remainder will stay in the mating nuc as I remove deviders. Just don't have that much gear yet, but I can handle the above situation. If I am wildly successful, I will have time as the bees build to construct more gear (or offer them to someone else). 

Was thinking of something like a quart size bundle of bees into the nuc with a new queen, maybe some brood on a frame if I can, trying to get that established on mini frames at this time. Guess I am trying to maximize the best growth potential I can without huge resources. I am not interested in honey production this year, just building colonies. 

BeeBreeder - Might just try that shake method. 

Thanks for any guidance and appreciate the patience with us new folks that want to reinvent the world.


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## Oldtimer

Smallest amount of bees that's worked for me is 250 mls, once the queens are laying if you want to get another round you add another 125 mls so she can lay a bit more & the bees can cover it, pull the queen a few days later.

Yes queens in these small nucs will often mate faster than say a 4 deep frame nuc. But they also have a higher rate of supersedure and failure after they are sold. My personal theory is the queens in the small nucs feel more urgency so mate & start laying faster. But the queens in the larger nucs can take longer and get it done right, hence the better performance after they are sold.


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## Goran

I don't have great experience with queen breeding and mating nucs. But I learned this way and for me as relative "green" proven safe and easy. I have mating nucs which are half frame ( vertically divided), and attach them together, with foundations usually to get them built. Then put them in a strong colonies where from I want to take the bees+stores+brood ( mainly sealed). I leave it and when I need just take one that "frame", dismantle and put in mating nuc, also one of that frame with stores and one half frame with foundation ( total 5 half frames), I shake even some bees from honey frame, put ripe queen cell and drive 3km away at other apiary.. Leave it and when time to check see if the queen is acceptable for me to take her in production colony.

Of course the main reason why I like to put the brood in these to prevent the bees abscond mating nucs ( I read that in mating flight from such small colonies the bees sometimes all follow virgin queen out and with brood present less chance)
This will be second season for me to work with these mating nucs and learn more of good and bad sides of it. For me it is like playing, and options to work with are many and simple..


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## marshmasterpat

Oldtimer said:


> Yes queens in these small nucs will often mate faster than say a 4 deep frame nuc. But they also have a higher rate of supersedure and failure after they are sold. My personal theory is the queens in the small nucs feel more urgency so mate & start laying faster. But the queens in the larger nucs can take longer and get it done right, hence the better performance after they are sold.


Well I will follow the advice of experience, and not looking to sell any, just to build so I really don't want excess numbers to supercede. Guess I will just use tired and proven methods until I actually have enough bees to play games with new ideas.


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## marshmasterpat

Thanks everyone.:thumbsup:


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## AstroBee

Oldtimer said:


> But the queens in the larger nucs can take longer and get it done right, hence the better performance after they are sold.


Very interesting observation. Do you have any data to support this statement, or is it just from years of observation? Most commercial queen rearing operations use mini's, which if what you stated is true would lead one to suspect that commercially raised queens would be more likely to get superseded. Of course no one has observed that... :lookout:


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## beekuk

Not had any problems with early supercedure with queens mated in clean mini nucs, anymore than queens mated in larger boxes, but the bees in mini nucs can be much more susceptible to nosema infection, so important to stock them with healthy bees in the first place, and into nucs that have been sterilised before use, and started with new starter strips each season.
Seen some that are using dirty boxes, old combs, and layers of squat bees under the roofs and on the rims...ideal to spread Nosema, ideal to cause early supercedure.
There was a post about someone who actually bought some queens from a commercial supplier, and sacrificed them on purpose just to test for Nosema, queens don't usually get Nosema easily, but they were riddled with it, and that supplier was not the only one with problems, led to them pumping them up with fumidil.

I also know of one who runs a couple of thousand mini nucs, makes me cringe the amount of bees that are squashed every time they are inspected, like bee Armageddon, plus they are removed and off in the post as soon as eggs are seen, so more likely to be superseded, just on introduction.


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## Oldtimer

There is no study, at least that I'm aware of, re supersedure rates of queens from various nuc types, it's just an observation. Beekuk also makes a useful observation, it is a fact that breeders who sell queens from the really tiny mini nucs, have to cage them within days of them starting to lay, or the queen may abscond. This in itself causes a % of dud queens to be sold, as those with poor brood patterns or even drone layers cannot be distinguished.

And as per Beekuk nosema can cause issues, although it does not have to automatically go hand in hand with mini nucs, long as they are run in a way that does not promote the disease.

However a mini nuc that is 1/4 of a lang super, can actually be big enough to avoid most of those problems if run well, I was talking (believe it or not), about nucs even smaller than that.


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## Velbert

Am working on a document on how I start a mini nuc on just foundation. Will try to post in the next week or so.


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## Velbert

https://app.box.com/s/37dw8fnpibahe7b8ztn6

Her is a link to Starting a Mini Nuc on Foundation


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Thanks Velbert. Very interesting.:thumbsup:


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## Joseph Clemens

Michael Palmer said:


> Why do you want to use mini-nucs if you're just going to shift them into nucs to catch the main flow. Just get your queens mated in the nucs in the first place.


Exactly what I was thinking.

My first experience, using mini mating nucs. I had a group of about a dozen mini mating nucs. I established them with nurse bees and queen cells. They built combs, the cells emerged, and when the virgins went on their mating flights, every single one, every time I tried, the entire colonies went with them, never to be seen again. That was a few years ago. Just last year I tried again, with two similar sized mini mating nucs. I managed to get three rounds of queens, successfully mated in them. At the end of the season, though, for reasons unknown, were overrun with wax moth larvae. They were strong and queenright colonies, just before succumbing. The majority of my other queens were mated in three, four, and five frame medium nucs. None of those were devastated by wax moths, though some did have wax moth problems.


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## Velbert

I dont have problems with wax moths.
Only time wax mothstake over a nuc or hive is when something is wrong with the hive no queen for a long period usually.


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## Joseph Clemens

Velbert,

It's probably a location thing, or, since it is often fleeting - maybe an observation thing.

A most obvious demonstration of how wax moths work, around here: For instance, when growing 5-comb, medium, top bar nucs, with strong, Langstroth nucs, being converted -> wax moths often infest the bottom-most rows of capped brood, in the new combs. It escalates, to where the bees attack the wax moth larva, tearing out the infested comb, afterwards they rebuild the affected comb. If I weren't checking these hives, nearly every day, I would likely have never witnessed this -- it all plays out very quickly. Since I'm only able to apply Bt 'Aizawai' to idle combs, or new plastic or wax foundation (and I rarely use wax foundation), it's combs, unprotected by Bt, that seem most vulnerable, and hence, affected.


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## Daniel Y

I cannot say what their succes rate is but in the video serios on skep beekeeping they show them setting up hundreds of mini mating nucs with just a cup of bees each. cup as in 8oz not coffee. I thik that works out ot around 300ish bees if my what equals what is still in tact.

With that I tend to think a lot of the methods in those videos are geared toward volume rather than quality.

Other information I have gatherd withthis same concern is that 1 deep full size frame of comb or equivalent and you want it farly well populated wtih bees. The number in my head in that case is clsoer to 1000 bees minimum and at least two half frames. I actually make 4 half frame mating nucs. But I do not expect to fill it with bees. it will have two drawn frames and two empty frames since I will work on queens mating and drawing comb for additional mating nucs for a while.


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## johng

If you are just mating queens to later move them into nucs you are causing your self quite a bit of extra work. Just use the cells to make up your nucs and you will be finished. There's no need to use mini mating nucs unless you plan on trying to sell queens. But, to answer your question I have used two cups of bees with success. Put the bees and the queen cell in the mini with a feeder and keep them closed up in a cool place for about 48hrs to get them started. Last year I was able to get 3 rounds of queens mated with the mini nucs before the SHB really started to decimate the mini hives.


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## Velbert

John i didn't have very good results releasing bees before the queen was a full 3 days old from hatch, I released them at end of second day, out of 33 only 2 stayed with the Nuc's bees queens all were gone. From then on I would leave them closed up until the end of 4th day when using a ripe queen cell all stayed then.


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## marshmasterpat

Thanks everyone. Extra work is not a bigger right now, heck I have 3.5 hives (one queenless with worker layer - about to be combined - shook it out this evening). But I was thinking I could make more numbers of small colonies in mini nucs than I can with splits into nuc size colonies. Then move them as they build. If the flow is 3 months, they all have that period to grow. If I do splits, and wait a bit, then do more splits after bee numbers build, I am going to miss most the flow. But guess I will just raise some queens and put them into nucs this spring. Maybe next year I will play. 

Will adding a frame of capped brood help hold the small numbers of bees in the mini's?


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## Daniel Y

I had problems gettign bees to stay in the minis as well. My answer is to make my mini frame half the size of full size frames. I then fit them together into a full size frame and put them in one of my production hives. they get drawn and if placed near the brood nest they get brood put in them. I then transfer them, bees and all to the mini nuc before introducing the virgin queen. Preferably the brood will be capped by then and beginning to emerge. this makes the nuc the only home many of the bees have ever known.


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## Honey-4-All

Oldtimer said:


> ................ *it is a fact that breeders who sell queens from the really tiny mini nucs, have to cage them within days of them starting to lay, or the queen may abscond. This in itself causes a % of dud queens to be sold, as those with poor brood patterns or even drone layers cannot be distinguished.*


Ok. Say what??????? 

Sound like its time for OT to take a winter vacation to good ol California when fall hits the south side of the planet and plug his nose into a few thousand mini's for a month or two to get a real feel of what they act like in person. I'm sure someone would love to fund your study to test the above hypothesis as long as the conductor would pick the test subjects during the process. Airfare reimbursed as in proportion to the queens secured. 

Are larger frames better for the bees? Most likely. Has the market been willing to pay the extra few dollars for large frame queens? not yet. I'm sticking with the mini's till OT helps me test his theory three years in a row and their is financially proven benefit to dumping the mini's. 

For all those wishing to get in the queen production racket here's a new opportunity for someone to specialize in... TF LF NMM's GBQ's ( Treatment Free Large frame No more mini's Gently bred queens.) $35 us each?


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## Oldtimer

You think I have to go to California to learn anything? Strange as it may sound I have been in the business have worked with thousands of nucs and do know how it's done and what is needed for different nuc types & it's all happened outside California.

However I know it's about price. If breeders want to sell queens for $20 as in your country and that's all people will pay then that's what's going to happen. Agreed. I can also say that a lot of NZ queens that went to Canada were done in minis and I'm talking tiny, probably cos of price. 

I'll tell you how what I consider extreme mini nuc queen raising is done. Not by me but I've seen it. The nuc is a piece of 4 inch pipe. It's cut to a length maybe 12 inches, at a guess. It gets a lid with a foundation strip glued, a queen cell and tin of bees. Locked in a shed for 3 days so the cell will hatch then trucked out each one is hung on a stick poked into the ground. The sites look real strange with hundreds of these things sticking out of the ground.

When the queens should be mated the pipes all get thrown on a truck again & taken back to a shed for caging. People are standing at benches & truck loads of these things are brought in. They get smacked on the bench the comb is looked at to see if there are eggs if so the queen that came out is caged. I was told mating is sometimes as low as 20%.

I wanted a breed those guys have so they gave me 2 caged queens. One turned out OK, the other was so small I don't think it could possibly be mated, but introduced it to a hive anyway, it never laid an egg and eventually disappeared.

Instead of me going to California to "get a real feel of what they act like in person", why don't you just tell me now how you would judge the quality of a queen with a system like that. I'm all ears.


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## Saltybee

Before the six guns come out you might agree on the definition of "tiny". That may be more of the problem than your experiences.


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## Oldtimer

Definition of tiny? Well I don't really know. But nucs that allow the queen 2 or 3 square inches of comb she can lay in will sometimes cause the queen to abscond if she is not caged soon enough, and have other problems that affect the queen such as temperature, nutrition, and she cannot get into the swing of laying before being shipped.

The six guns? Well that comment made me re read my post I guess it did come over a bit aggressive wasn't meant to be that way though. If I do get to California I'll look you up Honey4All, would be a great experience for me, you'll find me pretty agreeable in person.


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## Honey-4-All

Our mini's have 3 frames of about 12 square inches each side on them. We wait to pick till the brood is capped. By that time one can see if the pattern is a bust, roaring, or somewhere in between. depending on the forecast we use anywhere from .25 to .33 pounds of bees per cell. 

The idea of a single frame in a tube with a transfer directly to a nuc without picking is something I ought to test in a few months.. Like all methods it all sounds great till you try it and end up just finding some other bottleneck in production. 

Do the tube guys color the tubes or are they just straight white pvc. Do they use thick or thin wall pipe?


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## KevinR

The mini's that I'm using are 2 medium combs cut in half... So 4 mini frames...roughly 5.625 by 7.25" of comb per frame... or about 2.5 times bigger than the little Styrofoam ones... I had no problems with the queens I mated in them, but I've only mated ~50-60 queens in them so far with 15 minis..... Except for the week that some raccoon went on a queen eating rampage.... *grumbles* I've made another 50 and plan on making at least another 150 before spring. Doubt I'll have all the combs drawn out in the beginning, but should have most of them by fall. I'm thinking about dropping in a new frame in each mini nuc with each cell. That will allow me to make 1 new mating nuc from every 3 that I put in cells in.. Assuming the bees keep them drawn and laid. This will also allow the queen to potentially have a free frame to lay in.

I believe that weather/drone availability is much more of a issue than the size of the nuc. At least in my experience.


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## Oldtimer

Well if you wait to cage till brood is capped and there's enough to check the pattern well that means you'll catch the shonky ones so shouldn't be too bad, when I said tiny I was talking smaller, and the method used was not catching spotty layers or drone layers. Re the tubes they looked to be white PVC although I'm not 100% certain on that, no idea if they were thick or thin walled. If I can find it on the old computer I think there is a pic of an apiary of them if it's still there I'll post it.


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## KevinR

http://naturesnectar.blogspot.com/2010/03/queen-rearing.html

The ones at this website are the little Styrofoam ones that I was talking about... The comb is roughly 3.5x4 inches... I didn't have very good luck with these, between absconding and shb. They were too small... They probably work better up north than the do in the south, but that's just theory on my part.

I'm not yet sure if the medium height ones will be big enough, but they worked well for the last 1.5 years on the limited runs that I have.. I might end up with deep ones like Lauri's, but I'm going to try mediums first. Since the majority of my gear is medium height.

Square inch of comb per frame is 14" in the small ones vs ~40 in the ones I'm using and ~66" on the deep version.


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## Oldtimer

Kevin the cut in half medium size ones you mention is a pretty decent size in the world of mini nucs should be fine long as they are managed right.


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## Lburou

Oldtimer said:


> ........ If I can find it on the old computer I think there is a pic of an apiary of them if it's still there I'll post it.


I'd like to see that OT


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## Saltybee

I will be set back at least 2 yrs with this springs start from last August's pesticide event. Sick bees do not make bees that winter well.
I have been toying with various mini hive ideas as a way to make bees from small starts. Not as a queen method but as an increase method. From this post and historical ones as well as the you tube mini hive videos I am narrowing the plans.

Really like the sq inch descriptions for mini sizes.

Thoughts;
1. Ratio of lenght to width seems important.
2. Bees to sq in is as important as # of bees, too many as bad as too few.
3 Speculating that location matters a lot. Even one feral large hive nearby, I would think, would greatly complicate absconding.
4.I am leaning towards a set up mimicing Lauri's cross half frame to full frame in a smaller version. My thought is two 1/4 length medium frames for mating with a follower. Growing through 1/4 sizes onto 1/2 size cross frame and then up Velbert style into 1/2 frames then splitting up to a Lauri cross configuration to make the tansition to full frames.

Greatly appreciate any warnings or observations.


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## Lauri

Honey-4-All said:


> For all those wishing to get in the queen production racket here's a new opportunity for someone to specialize in... TF LF NMM's GBQ's ( Treatment Free Large frame No more mini's Gently bred queens.) $35 us each?



Actually I get $40. and can't keep up with the demand 



















I didn't read through this whole thread so if my comments are repetitive, please excuse me. 
The small nucs do the job, but as soon as the queen is out of room to lay and she is supressed, her quality decreases in a hurry. Pretty hard to get her momentum back, if it ever really returns in full, I'm not sure. Might as well bank them at that point. I would probably actually rather install a virgin queen than a mated queen that had been suppressed . They both take about the same time to get with it, but the suppressed queen just doesn't have the same 'enthusiasm effect' on the colony compared one that has never been suppressed. In my experience I believe it is a significant factor in future performance. 
*

I can leave them this size mating nuc longer than a smaller mini.











I don't like the mini's but have them around for back up. You just have to get them out before all the available room is used up.










One scoop of young bees is sufficient if the weather is warm enough. Leave them all together overnight in a larger cluster , allowing the foragers to fly back to the old location. Take what's left and scoop them up. Drop in a virgin quen and confine for 24 hours. I never have absconding issues, even with a nuc this small. But they know no other home. Feeding is an issue with these. If you have even a single drawn comb with feed you are set.










Here is one way to feed to get them started. Scrap cage wire, a couple staples at the bottom and a handy dandy zip tie :


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## KevinR

I don't think the ratio of length to width really matters... I "believe" that you should have at least 3 combs... That provides a protected comb in the middle. I don't believe it matters if they are short/long or deep/shallow within reason.

I think you should standardize whatever it is your going to do, if you plan to do more of it in the future.

I prefer the square'ish shaped boxes to the skinny boxes... I tried 2 frame nucs, but I couldn't fit my hand in there to catch the side/bottom running queens. The 4 half frame width provides an easier solution.

Next to that, I think the big issue is not to have to many bees in the box. I have hard times requeening large hives, but I can requeen 5 frame or smaller nucs fairly easily.

I believe the 8oz cup of bees, or ladle of bees that you see in the youtube videos is probably the smallest I would go. You need enough bees to cover the brood and account for them dying before the new brood emerges.

My plan is to build supers that have a runner in the middle. I plan to place my half frames in the supers and on the hive before the flow and feed. This "should" get the bees drawing the foundation and hopefully laying eggs.

Once it gets closer to mating time, I will split all those "supers" into 4 four frame nucs with attached bees and place a cell. 

That's my rough plan, will see how it needs to be modified in a few months.

I did this last year with "decent" success.... If I hadn't been attacked by the queen munching raccoon. I believe it would have been better. This year I'm either placing 4x4 posts with a platform for the nucs, or t-posts with the platform. The nucs will be strapped down. The bricks that I had on them previously didn't slow down the masked bandit..


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## Michael Palmer

KevinR said:


> I don't think the ratio of length to width really matters... I "believe" that you should have at least 3 combs... That provides a protected comb in the middle. I don't believe it matters if they are short/long or deep/shallow within reason.



You're not the first to recommend using three frames.


If we are to have this [a] quart of bees work to the best advantage, something depends upon the sort of hive they are domiciled in. A single comb, long and narrow, so as to string the bees out in one thin cluster, is very bad economy. Two combs would do very much better, but three would be a great deal better still. It is like scattering the firebrands widely apart; one alone will soon go out; two placed side by side will burn quite well; and three will make quite a fire. It is on this account that I would have a nucleus of three, instead of one or two frames. The bees seem to seek naturally a space between two combs; and the queen seldom goes to the outside comb of a hive, unless she is obliged to for want of room. 
Root, A. I., ABC of Bee Culture, 1891, A. I. Root Co., p. 205


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## marshmasterpat

Lauri, Kevin, and Michael, - now that is the stuff/information we newbees can use.


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## Velbert

In my ( bee works 4 frame top bar styrofoam) mating Nuc out of 200 nuc's I got 3.5 sell able queens and for the year it took 11 lbs of syrup to get them through a year per Nuc. That was a hot dry year, took about 3 1/2 55 gallon barrels of syrup. Saved the last queen and wintered them.


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## Saltybee

Velbert, I've seen a variety of your nucs. Which length bar is the above post? Thanks.


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## Velbert

I posted picture
These were started with 1.5 cups of bees from the brood nest of a well crowded colony. Shook into bulk box and left there for 2 full days will feed them all they could eat and when nuc was stocked with these bees they had began production of wax from their glands.They was started on about 1.25" stater strips of wax foundation and a ripe queen cell and place in my little dark air condition room left there four days and at about dark at the end of 4th day set them on location and opened them up.


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## Velbert

1Gallon of bees is just a little bit over 3 lbs at about 3500 bees per 1 lb. 3 lbs of bees = 10,500 bees

1 Gallon = 4 quarts
1 Gallon = 8 pints
1 Gallon = 16 cups

1 Quart of bees is about 12 ounces
1 Pint of bees 6 ounces
1 Cup of bees 3 ounces

10,500 bees ÷ 16 cups = 656.25 bees per cup

I like to use 1.5 cups of bees in my
(WWW.beeworks.com) mating nucs

In my 1/2 length 6.25" medium 4 frame mating nuc that have approximately 1,700 cell per frame counting both sides of the frame I like puting a PINT of bulk bees in, about 1300 bees for building my combs.


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## Saltybee

Velbert, thank you for the data. I was getting lost with the photos of the Beeworks frames on your site. Did not look like half frames because they are not. Very generous with your site info.

Question of the expansion you get with your stacked 4 frame mediums. Do they expand faster with the (4) 1/2 frame nucs adding another above it than a 2 full frame nuc would expand sideways into a single 4 full frame nuc? Just seems like the heat distribution would be better in the square than the rectangle, especially in the spring and winter. 

Wow, that is an awkward question but I hope you get the drift.


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## Velbert

Yes Saltybee your welcome
they expand a lot quicker all being equal and if its 4 1/2 frames with foundation the frames are built better from top to bottom and end to end.


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## Constant Gardener

I totally agree with Michael Palmer. Unless you are producing queens for sale, it is far better to get new queens established on full sized frames right from the start. There is no interruption to your colony build-up, there is much less risk of absconding and you leave yourself several options:
1) Overwinter your new colony in a small hive (I use 6-frame Dadant hives for this). This was the method favoured by Brother Adam at Buckfast Abbey.
2) Combine your new colony with an older one at the end of the summer by simply placing its frames into the middle of the old colony (having first removed the old queen). A dusting of icing sugar for all the bees involved helps a lot.
3) Combine two new colonies into one big hive after removing the weaker of the two queens.

Option 1 works really well. You use the new queen which you will have produced during the summer to replace an old one in the following spring. You know she is strong because she has successfully overwintered. Using this method, the old queen who will have lived through 3 winters and 2+ complete laying seasons is ready to be replaced. There will be no interruption to the colony's spring build-up as the new queen is herself in full laying condition when she arrives. If you introduce the new queen when there is a good nectar flow you should have no problems with acceptance by the old colony.

One little trick. Unless the old queen is really failing, you might decide not to kill her but rather to put her into the little colony that your new queen has come from. This not only gives you some insurance against the possibility that your new queen is rejected but also, it keeps the little colony going until such time as you have a new queen cell to put in it (which might be a month or two later).








Bees at the entrance of a 6-frame Dadant hive. This picture was taken on January 7th 2011


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## Saltybee

marshmasterpat said:


> A few questions here, looking for guidance, not an exact figure.
> 
> just trying to jump start a number of smaller hives. Has anyone tried this with success and maybe have some tips.
> 
> Thank again


It is not a question of is larger better. If you have the bees and forage to support full nucs then why not do it that way. (Well maybe equipment and weight are also why not for some.)

My land is ledge and pine trees. My neighbors mow their fields twice a week. My brother's hives are 1/4 mile away and easily bring in 6 fold the forage. Saltybee is in honor of the cold ocean spring winds. So the easiest way for me to keep bees is to move, but I like walking out the back door to the bees and that is physically easier than driving.

For me it is what will work best for myself out of the various successful methods others are using. Small mating nucs have not worked well for me in the past for all the usual reasons. Several very informative nuc posts in the last year may change that. Good stuff.


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## marshmasterpat

Lauri - I am assuming the large size welded wire is to hold comb in place, sort of like rubber bands after cutouts?

Well I now have some 1/4 sized mating nucs. guess I will see if they work. Started them about 2 months ago, then set them aside to finish more mediums. Hope they work ok, gives bees less comb they have to build quickly, and I can slide a frame of capped brood out sooner (because it will fill faster) to keep a queen busy for a bit longer.

Thanks everyone for the advice.


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## Lauri

marshmasterpat said:


> Lauri - I am assuming the large size welded wire is to hold comb in place, sort of like rubber bands after cutouts?


Every one likes to use rubber bands. I find they are not near strong enough to hold comb if it has any honey or weight to in it. Especially of the comb is new and soft. The scrap cage wire holds comb securely in place and the bees just build over it. I use these for my cut outs. 











I find placing a small single section of comb in the center is better that filling the entire frame with multiple sections as show below.










With a single section of comb in the center of the frame it gives them room to draw out and fill in the rest in an orderly fashion.

Multi pal sections are not organized the correct way and once the brood has hatched and honey consumed, they will not work them well or will abandon them.

Photo below is the same frame as the first photo, after it has been worked for a few weeks.










The photo above is my inspiration for using a 3/4 sheet of rite cell in my deep frames. 

I'm assured of worker sized cell being drawn in the center, it gives them room on the sides for drone comb which I have the option to cut out for mite control-or if the frames are above the brood nest for honey comb harvest. I look forward to seeing if frames like this will encourage more feed to be stored near the brood nest, especially in fall. Although it is no big deal, it could keep them in the bottom box.

Also, will more available area for feed storage near the brood nest help avoid backfilling and swarming ? We will see.

Partial foundation also gives the comb the stability it needs in a deep frame, while having some benefits of foundationless.
Plus it stretched my foundation costs. At over $100. a case now, stretching foundations costs by 1/3 = $30. savings per case. 
I hate feeding and hate paying for rite cell. But I do it because I love the results.



















Guess what I use the 5" I cut off the sheet for?










This is what those frames look like in winter. Lots of feed around the sides. The center of this frame was full of open nectar/syrup, but is worker sized cells and will soon be full of brood.










Here's a box of collected comb sitting where the entrance was in an old cedar log. Just collecting up the rest of the bees form the cut out.










Yes, I got the queen  This hive is overwintering extremely well in 4 deeps..and they are all packed.










Wild colonies Collected from this area with queens this color have been really fantastically vigorous and productive. This cut out dropped a surprising amount of mites in late summer. But the hive was un phased by the mite load. It's outcrossed vigor will be a good addition to my genetics and in return daughters from this queen will benefit from crossing with the VSH genetics I already have here. I wish I had II equipment. I'd like to control some of these lines before they become too diluted.


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## Cub

Michael Palmer said:


> Why do you want to use mini-nucs if you're just going to shift them into nucs to catch the main flow. Just get your queens mated in the nucs in the first place.


Since you brought this up, what is the benefit of using the mini hives and frames, rather than a 2 frame standard of any size? Lots of the older bee books have nucs set up in standard equipment, with follower boards in place to cut down on space until the bees need more room. Is the only benefit less woodenware, or is there something with the shape of the minis that help the bees?


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## Honey-4-All

Cub said:


> Since you brought this up, what is the benefit of using the mini hives and frames?


Commercially bulk bees have a value of $10-12 a pound in my area. That's 75 cents saved for every ounce you do NOT put in a mating nuc. Heat conservation and production is a big issue in a nuc. The fine line between quality and expense has to intersect at some point in queen production. A 2 or 3 dollar difference per nuc multiplied by thousands adds up to be a large chunk of change...... and a lot more work.


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## Lauri

5 half sized deeps have more interior (Warm) surface area than 2 standard deep frames. They lay them up and sustain better in cooler climates like mine. 
In warmer climates you can get away with very small minis

Compare this frame to those that I use. (Photo from one of my facebook friends in the Middle East)










I'm overwintering many mini nucs of five half deeps. I'd never try that with on 2 standard frames.


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## Cub

Honey-4-All said:


> Commercially bulk bees have a value of $10-12 a pound in my area. That's 75 cents saved for every ounce you do NOT put in a mating nuc. Heat conservation and production is a big issue in a nuc. The fine line between quality and expense has to intersect at some point in queen production. A 2 or 3 dollar difference per nuc multiplied by thousands adds up to be a large chunk of change...... and a lot more work.


Excellent answer. For my situation, I now have 7 hives and hope to maybe make it to 15-20 maximum. If there was a possibility of selling a few nucs here and there, that would be nice as well. For me, does it make sense to start building the minis at all? I like to build things, but adding another frame size doesn't sounds appetizing.


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## Cub

Lauri said:


> 5 half sized deeps have more interior (Warm) surface area than 2 standard deep frames. They lay them up and sustain better in cooler weather.
> 
> I'm overwintering many mini nucs of five half deeps. I'd never try that with on 2 standard frames.


I understand. My wife would love to paint the teeny tiny hives all sorts of bright colors, so maybe she will get her wish. What process do you use for transferring them to full size hives? Or, is that even the goal?


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## Lauri

Half sized deeps are actually cool frames to use in everyday beekeeping. Perfect for handicaped folks, children, etc. 

The easiest way to get them drawn out is to simply install a package on them.

I run several large hives on the half frames for distribution to the mating nucs. Just convert a standard box to hold the frames. These hives can get tall in a hurry since each box is the equivelent of 6 standard deeps. Room for interior frame feeder on the other side of the divider.




















Or let a colony move up to the new box of mini frames, but they will be slower to do so:









Make yourself a shook swarm on the new mini frames and feed them well. In a week you'll get this:


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## Brandy

Cub: Back to the "Why do you want to use mini-nucs if you're just going to shift them into nucs to catch the main flow. Just get your queens mated in the nucs in the first place." 

Use your standard equipment, standard frames then go into standard potential buyers hives and nucs. Ounces of bees don't matter to you as they do to commercial queen rearers. Keep it simple in your case and you'll be happy you did.


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## Lauri

It's easy to make new standard nucs with a virgin in spring. 

But there are always a few hives that, after the flow is over, should be broken up because they are too huge to overwinter or they are not as productive and you want to break them up. Many times those late nucs could really benefit from a brood break to control mites, but if you are in a cool short season area you may not have enough time. If you want those newly constructed late summer nucs to grow and be populated enough to overwinter, having some small mating nucs with mated queens around is sure handy. Not to mention if you should accidently squish a queen.

It's not like you'll be stuck with them if you don't need them.


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## Cub

Since I got some free lumber last night, a couple mini mediums might be in order. Lauri, your photos are fantastic.


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## PAHunter62

Lauri said:


> The small nucs do the job, but as soon as the queen is out of room to lay and she is supressed, her quality decreases in a hurry. Pretty hard to get her momentum back, if it ever really returns in full, I'm not sure. Might as well bank them at that point. I would probably actually rather install a virgin queen than a mated queen that had been suppressed . They both take about the same time to get with it, but the suppressed queen just doesn't have the same 'enthusiasm effect' on the colony compared one that has never been suppressed. In my experience I believe it is a significant factor in future performance.
> *
> 
> I can leave them this size mating nuc longer than a smaller mini.


Lauri -

How long do you find you can leave your queens in the half deep mating NUCs before they become suppressed on average?

PAHunter62


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## Saltybee

Follow up question; Is supression from lack of space or lack of bees to rear brood?


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## KevinR

It's my understanding that it comes from lack of laying eggs aka space.... That's why people are always a little leery of banked queens. They don't always start laying the way they were, prior to being banked.

I've never banked queens more than a couple days, so I can't personally say that it's similar. 

Just what I have read...


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## Lauri

PAHunter62 said:


> Lauri -
> 
> How long do you find you can leave your queens in the half deep mating NUCs before they become suppressed on average?
> 
> PAHunter62


About Three weeks is best, I can leave them in for 4 weeks, but need to get them out soon. There are plenty of bees, just no more room to lay. My queens start laying right at 2 weeks after virgin intro. It could vary for your area and your strain of bees.

I've left them in much longer and they adapt and hold, but that queen will have period of inactivity by the time the brood hatches and she once again has room. By then the nuc is too full of bees.
I like to take them out when there is lots of capped brood and few eggs. She lays it up quickly, then is stopped cold otherwise.

Kind of like when someone just drops in and makes you stop working to chat. You were working hard and were nice and warm in the cold weather. By the time they leave you have lost your momentum and are cold again. It's hard to get back to the efficiency you previously had. That's why I don't carry a cell phone


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## Saltybee

Does pulling frames of brood and replacing with empties keep the queen fresh or is that a better theory than practice?


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## Oldtimer

Yes that both works, and is also how people with nucs can make more nucs. The timing is critical, it's best done just when the brood starts hatching, and the hatching brood is the ones you remove. That way the new nuc is quickly populated with young bees that will not drift back. Because all the other bees are older now, and will drift back.


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## Daniel Y

The "Touch for moving frames around is something that took more than typical effort on my part. I started by attempting to brush bees from frames into empty undrawn comb. that did not work to the point it actually had my daughter in tears and the bees so mad we almost could not work them. we then abandoned half frame mini nucs and built 3 queen castles. We then moved frames of brood. This is when we discovered that it takes uncapped brood longer to develop and emerge than ti takes a virgin queen to mate and start laying. not a good combination when the virgin returns to find all capped cells. We then looked to move fraems that had mostly capped cells. this resulted in mated queens returning to a well populated hive with empty space to lay in. Now this may sound not so bad. but here are the numbers that might paint a little clearer picture of what this learning curve cost. over 120 emerged virgin queens to end up with 10 mated queens. In reality it was a process that we had to refine nearly every tiny detail to get it right. Queen rearing is one of the more difficult things I have attempted so far. but it is worth it. Keep in mind that whole drastic loss period was intended to be for learning. losses where expected. jut not that many. in the end we actually improved our success to 50% of our queens being mated and returning. we are still working on that. For now my biggest problem is that about the time I start gettign something worked out. I run out of equipment. Filling up hives is the least of my problems. room for the young mated queens is killing me. And then hives for them to expand into is threatening to bankrupt me.

It is not unusual for to much success to kill a new business. and so far that is what I am seeing with bees. Sooner or later I have to face that I must sell about 25% of my progress in order to keep going. I am to much of a straight ahead and never take a step back type.

I see myself very much in Laurie's position just on a much smaller scale. I also think a whole lot like she does. There are a lot of steps between an egg being layed and mated queen setting in a full size hive. and every one of them needs care and attention. do today what is needed for today. tomorrow will then have tended to itself. I do not spend a lot of time thinking about tomorrow because frankly I have no idea what tomorrow holds. I am better served honing my skill at how I do with this moment. when tomorrows moment gets here I am well practiced at handling it.


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## Lauri

****


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## rweakley

_My big advantage was, I already had a one ton truck, trailer, tractor with fork lift and power tools. And the experience to use them efficiently. If I had to buy all that stuff just for beekeeping, there would be no way to do it out of pocket. With all these advantages, going the direction I am seems like a no brainer. I'd be foolish NOT to do it_. 


Otherwise if you are like me and had next to nothing with tools or $$ you have to grow and sell at the same time. It can be done but much slower process.


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## Oldtimer

My own theory after seeing many borrow money and fail, is people should spend a bit of money on the initial set up, then expand using money the bees generate. That way if you don't make any money you don't expand. While this is happening work a day (or night) job.

At some point there comes a time where money has to be borrowed to set up an extracting plant. But this will be several years down the track and by then you will know if you are going to succeed, how much returns you can get per hive etc, makes it a much safer bet.

The ideal is to make your day job working for a commercial beekeeper. What you learn will be invaluable, build your own hives on the side.


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## Lauri

Honey is actually a by-product for me at this point. It is how I am making my increases. 
I am really surprised at how many commercial operations don't raise their own queens. Learning to rear quality queens right off the bat has given me a huge advantage of being extremely versatile in what product I choose to produce for that year. Honey, nucs, queens or increases. I just manage my bees well and choose the product of surplus de jour, depending on the weather, the economy and the demand. I'm not stuck producing a single product that may or may not be successful on a annual basis. Because my program is still on a _*small scale*_, I can get away with this versatility.
Unlike most people, I never got into it for the honey. But will have to 'deal' with the honey surplus at some point.


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## Brandy

"I am really surprised at how many commercial operations don't raise their own queens." 

Not sure if most of the commercial operations feel the need to be represented here...many of the large ones spend a month or so raising queens in between pollination. But they're not posting their schedule here for us. Many I've had contact with, large commercials, also have friends that are in queen rearing and swap resources, queens, genetics, etc...they seem to be helping each other, but without the need to post what they're doing. Every beekeeper finds what works for them. Some are in it for the honey, some for the money, and some for the bees. Everyone gets a choice.


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## Lauri

True Brandy, I don't mean to have any comments about others..just some observations of some who DO post. Obviously, many commercials do raise queens. I was just suprised at the number who don't.

I think many post here to help out beginners as WE were helped in the past...not to critique the business practices of others.
Sorry if something I said was offensive.


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## Oldtimer

Nothing offensive.

It's about efficiency. A commercial beekeeper is there to turn as much money as possible from what he has. Queen raising can be at the time of year when he is already most busy. depending on his own schedule he may find a window or some opportunity presents to raise queens. But for some it is more efficient to focus on what they do best when they are stretched for time, and just buy the queens, or have some sharing arrangement as per Brandy.

Of the ones I know nearly all raise all of, or at least some of their queens but will also buy if that is the better option.


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## rweakley

Oldtimer said:


> My own theory after seeing many borrow money and fail, is people should spend a bit of money on the initial set up, then expand using money the bees generate. That way if you don't make any money you don't expand. While this is happening work a day (or night) job.
> 
> At some point there comes a time where money has to be borrowed to set up an extracting plant. But this will be several years down the track and by then you will know if you are going to succeed, how much returns you can get per hive etc, makes it a much safer bet.
> 
> The ideal is to make your day job working for a commercial beekeeper. What you learn will be invaluable, build your own hives on the side.


But if that's not an option for whatever reason you can build up your operation spending very little of your OWN money. I started in beekeeping with a starter kit, plus another hive, and 2 packages of bees. Maybe 300 or 400$. Just about everything else has come from the bees. I now have 15 hives, extractor, and anything else I need and none of it came out of my family budget. I spent TIME instead of money. If you are young (30s when I started) and this is just a hobby you are growing into something else then why not make it pay for it's self past the first investment to get started. Assuming you can get thru winters with out losing them all.


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## Oldtimer

rweakley said:


> why not make it pay for it's self past the first investment to get started.


Isn't that pretty much what I said?


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## rweakley

Oldtimer said:


> Isn't that pretty much what I said?


 I think our ideas of the $ for the beginning investment are different.  But then again we're beekeepers we have to disagree even when we agree. lol


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## Oldtimer

Emphasis "I think".

My own beginning investment was VERY small. I got into bees working for a commercial beekeeper as a teenager. Boss gave me one nuc, I bought some boxes, and it pretty much paid for itself from there. I've always focussed on intensive management and maximum returns from a small number of hives, far as my own bees go anyway.


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## rweakley

Oldtimer said:


> Emphasis "I think".
> 
> My own beginning investment was VERY small. I got into bees working for a commercial beekeeper as a teenager. Boss gave me one nuc, I bought some boxes, and it pretty much paid for itself from there. I've always focussed on intensive management and maximum returns from a small number of hives, far as my own bees go anyway.


we are very similar them except no commercial beekeepers to work for around here. at least not close enough to keep my day job.


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## Velbert

Here is a 1/2 length 4 frame deep Mating nuc they will winter good here in Oklahoma.
Got about $13.50 in frames foundation hive top feeder and lumber at $1.33 BF tax and all.


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## Daniel Y

Oldtimer said:


> Yes queens in these small nucs will often mate faster than say a 4 deep frame nuc. But they also have a higher rate of supersedure and failure after they are sold. My personal theory is the queens in the small nucs feel more urgency so mate & start laying faster. But the queens in the larger nucs can take longer and get it done right, hence the better performance after they are sold.


What would you consider to fast for a quality queen. as in days from introduction to sighting of first eggs?


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## jim lyon

You should be seeing eggs around 13 days after intro of a ripe cell. Many large queen producers are caging maybe 3 days later partly because of schedule and partly because there isnt much laying room in a baby nuc. Personally, if you must cage them, I would allow them to lay for a week anyway. This is one of the problems associated with buying mated, caged queens. In my mind its just not natural for them to lay a few days, see them just starting to "puff up" and then caging them and assuming they will restart normally a week or more later.


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## Oldtimer

For me Daniel, fast would be what Jim just said. Apparently in say, California, with good weather plus the nuc types they use 2 weeks is pretty normal. For me, I use larger nucs & we get a lot of bad weather, so I'm expecting to find a laying queen, with MAYBE some of those eggs hatched 3 weeks after the cell went in. I won't cage for another 2 weeks (5 weeks total) or if the nuc is to be split or sold that will be in another week (6 weeks) once there is hatching brood.

Many breeders will laugh at my slow schedule but solid results later down the line are worth it.


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## marshmasterpat

Oldtimer said:


> For me, I use larger nucs & we get a lot of bad weather, so I'm expecting to find a laying queen, with MAYBE some of those eggs hatched 3 weeks after the cell went in. I won't cage for another 2 weeks (5 weeks total) or if the nuc is to be split or sold that will be in another week (6 weeks) once there is hatching brood..


Do you mind sharing what size nuc you use? Are they are standard 5 frame deeps?

Thanks


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## Oldtimer

They are 3 frame deeps, ie, one standard deep super, with 2 dividers, which makes 3 x's 3 frame nucs.


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## Daniel Y

Oldtimer said:


> Many breeders will laugh at my slow schedule but solid results later down the line are worth it.


They can laugh all they like. I am also trying to put together a schedule that produces better queens.

Sounds like it take a lot of housing for them. I am trying to get ready for as many as 300 queens right now. Mostly in queen castles that will have 2 frame compartments.

Do you think that will be adequate room to allow the new queens to lay for that long or do need to be ready to move them to larger nucs?

I came to the number 300 because that is what I expect all of my hives combined could make in the way of swarm cells. Since all of that will happen in something like a 6 week period I am not counting on being able to cycle many of the queens out and placing another virgin with them.

I have two incubators and will let all queens emerge in them once the cells are capped. Saves time in the mating nucs this way.

Jim, you say 13 days from introduction of a Ripe cell. to me that means as much as 8 days until the virgin even emerges and then 5 days to the appearance of the first eggs. Is that correct? Seems really fast to me. I had a bunch of queens last year that if I did not give them three weeks from the time they where introduced I was missing a lot of them. As far as I can tell it was simply not enough time for them to show they where present and mated. Keep in mind that was introducing virgins to my full size hives that had become queenless. As a result of that I simply gave the queens I had in mating nucs 3 weeks as well but they seemed to be busting at the seams when I finally did move them. Maybe they did mate much faster out of those little compartments.


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## Daniel Y

Oldtimer, Oops I just read your last post. that pretty much answers my question. Which is pretty much what I suspected it would be.


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## Oldtimer

Daniel don't be in too much hurry to build a lot of 2 framers. They can be difficult for several reasons, if you do make them, do it in such a way it would be easy enough to rework them to 3 framers later if you wanted.


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## Daniel Y

Thanks Oldtimer. I still have not even made them. this year the ones I make will be temporary and I will be able to remove the dividers. the only difference to me in making them 3 frame rather than 2 is the number of boxes I need and the eventual number of frames. Hopefully I will sell most of these as mated queens or as nucs and use that money to make the permanent compartments.

So far I am pretty set on whatever I make being full size frames. no more mini frame stuff to mess with. I like the Queen castle because it is compact. but have issue with the idea it may be loosing me queens. I am working on ideas how to limit that. but if I cannot get up to an 80% return on mating flights with the use of castles I will give them up. If I have to make hundreds of little 3 frame boxes. then so be it.


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## jim lyon

Oldtimer said:


> For me Daniel, fast would be what Jim just said. Apparently in say, California, with good weather plus the nuc types they use 2 weeks is pretty normal. For me, I use larger nucs & we get a lot of bad weather, so I'm expecting to find a laying queen, with MAYBE some of those eggs hatched 3 weeks after the cell went in. I won't cage for another 2 weeks (5 weeks total) or if the nuc is to be split or sold that will be in another week (6 weeks) once there is hatching brood.
> 
> Many breeders will laugh at my slow schedule but solid results later down the line are worth it.


With these weather related delays are you still getting 80%+ catch success? Seems like your takes would suffer somewhat.


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## jim lyon

Daniel Y said:


> I came to the number 300 because that is what I expect all of my hives combined could make in the way of swarm cells. Since all of that will happen in something like a 6 week period I am not counting on being able to cycle many of the queens out and placing another virgin with them.
> 
> I have two incubators and will let all queens emerge in them once the cells are capped. Saves time in the mating nucs this way.
> 
> Jim, you say 13 days from introduction of a Ripe cell. to me that means as much as 8 days until the virgin even emerges and then 5 days to the appearance of the first eggs. Is that correct? Seems really fast to me. I had a bunch of queens last year that if I did not give them three weeks from the time they where introduced I was missing a lot of them. As far as I can tell it was simply not enough time for them to show they where present and mated. Keep in mind that was introducing virgins to my full size hives that had become queenless. As a result of that I simply gave the queens I had in mating nucs 3 weeks as well but they seemed to be busting at the seams when I finally did move them. Maybe they did mate much faster out of those little compartments.


The " ripe" cell would be expected to hatch within about a day. Typically it takes this newly hatched virgin about a week to be mature enough for mating flights and about another week for her to begin laying. It's pretty much universally accepted that if virgins are delayed in making their mating flights (primarily because of weather) that mating success drops off pretty dramatically after a week or so. I call it the "old maid" effect. Yes you can intro. live virgins if you wish and probably do fine but in my mind aside from seeing their physical coloration and confirming they have healthy looking wings there isn't a lot to be gained while you assume a certain risk in the handling and introduction. A determination of how good a queen is really can't be made until a good period after mating. For my part, I don't need to ever actually see the queen, just her handiwork.


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## Oldtimer

jim lyon said:


> With these weather related delays are you still getting 80%+ catch success? Seems like your takes would suffer somewhat.


A couple of years back 80% plus was common although I was OK with anything over 75%.

Of more recent times average % has dropped markedly not just for me but for virtually all NZ breeders I have talked to, it is a much discussed topic on out local bee forum & nobody quite knows why. This is also going with perfectly normal looking queens failing after just a few months which used to be considered something that happens overseas, but not here.

This season for me far as mating% goes has been lousy, don't know it exactly but probably something around 60% there has also been major problems with bees tearing cells down, which hardly ever used to happen. I have had some lab testing done and found what might be some answers, so hoping this year was a low point and things will improve with some different methods next season.


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## Daniel Y

I am interested in other possible causes of a poor mating success. I have considered predation. we have dragon flies as well as Seagulls in this area. Gulls are quite capable of catching an object in flight. I am not sure of what other predators we might have to the Queens. I had not considered other Health or condition factors.

Jim, that clears it up. I plan to be dealing with emerged virgins at first simply because I expect to be working with natural swarm cells. I will only graft if ti appears the bees will not produce enough cells to fill the equipment I am preparing. Later I will be doing some grafting so the date they emerge will be better known. I am building the Apiary from only the money the bees generate so it is difficult at this time. I expect that to be so for some time to come. Right now expansion is about as expensive as it can get. Purchasing materials from Home Improvement centers or ordering online in quantities that I am in their highest price bracket etc. I made or purchased 93 various boxes this winter. it is by far my largest single increase since starting with bees. It includes 12 new deeps to for the nucs I over wintered. 45 Mediums so that I now have at least 3 mediums for each of my 22 hives. 18 deep 5 frame nucs and 18 medium 5 frame nucs. I have additional nuc I made up from OSB late last summer that iwll be sold once they have built up. This is a total of 60 nuc boxes of one size or another.

If this year is much like last year a lot of that equipment will get filled with swarms cut outs or trap outs long before it is needed for honey production. All the nucs will get filled from swarm cell queen production alone and 40 of them will then be sold. I am fairly certain I can get to those numbers without much problem. how far beyond that I can get I do not know but am getting prepared for as many as 250 queens.

So far the quality of the queens I produced last year seems to be good. I know I still own all of them. and so far all of them have at least 2 frames of brood and strong populations except two. those two are in nucs and the population is low. I woudl not say they are going to die but they definitely are not thriving. Those two nucs may very well take an additional two queens that manage to get mated.

I appreciate your comments. I am pretty much in a situation that i am attempting to maximize my production by utilizing every resource that I have at the moment. it is still not enough.


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