# How many hive bodies is too many?



## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

I just harvested honey and done for the season here in this area. I want to combine two colonies with the newspaper method.

If anyone has heard Mike Palmer's (of Vermont) talks and seen photos of his hive, he stacks maybe 10 mediums or deeps on top of each other.

I have a hive (one medium, one deep -- they tell me this is an "Illinois" setup) that I combined with two mediums from a swarm hive from May.

Is this too many hive bodies? At what point do you find queen substance cannot spread to the far reaches of the colony because of too much wooden ware?

I have no queen excluders anywhere in the colony. I checked the hive last night, I call it a MEGA hive, and the bees were bearding like crazy. There must be nearly 80K bees in this super hive of one deep and 3 mediums. Have I goofed by doing this?

If you ask why I did this, here's the answer: I want to consolidate hives because too many individual hives uses too many resources right now. I'm not consolidating weak hives, because all my hives are pretty strong.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

you can see (via pictures) individual hives that get quite high. some high enough that a fairly tall ladder is needed to add or remove a super. I suspect that many of these are two queen hives, so queen pheromone is not likely in short supply.

at the current time (and especially for folks in the south) the shb may be more a limit on the height of a hive than anything else.... excess space will encourge those little devils.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

fatscher said:


> If anyone has heard Mike Palmer's (of Vermont) talks and seen photos of his hive, he stacks maybe 10 mediums or deeps on top of each other.
> 
> I have a hive (one medium, one deep -- they tell me this is an "Illinois" setup) that I combined with two mediums from a swarm hive from May.
> 
> ...


Yes, it's true. I do stack many supers on the hives...although not necessarily 10.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/scan0006-2.jpg

With plenty of room on the hive to handle incomming, and prolific queens, I get huge populations.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/strongnortherncolonies.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/VBAPDF2.jpg

But, that's in response to our huge and prolonged nectar flows. Our flows start at or just before Dandelion, in early May, and some years go until the end of Goldenrod in mid-September. That's what it takes to take advantage of the flows that are there.

My standard broodnest used to be 3 deeps. Your mega colony is the same as 3.25 deeps. I don't see why there should be a problem with that, as far as queen substance goes. The bees will adjust to the cavity size...probably by moving up out of the bottom combs. 

One problem I do see...is there enough of a flow to sustain such a colony? Will the queen continue to lay at a rate that will maintain this population? I bet not. You don't have much of a flow right now, do you? That may be the limiting factor here. 

I wouldn't fret about having goofed or not. What's done is done. Now observe and learn. 

After all...isn't this all one great experiment.

I'd be interested to know how they sort themselves out, and how they go through the winter.


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Thanks, Mike, for responding.

My mentor (Karla -- known as "winevines" on here) and I talk fondly of Miss Vermont. For those unaware, Miss Vermont is the name she gave to a queen received from Mike Palmer's stock. Missy V is alive, doing well, very prolific and her babies (worker daughters) are rather dark banded. Gentle bees too, I can practically stick my hand in the entrance (ok, I'm exaggerating), er, I can stand right next to the entrance without a veil and no girls bother me.

You're spot-on correct in that there's no nectar flow, and that's my assessment too. You point out in your talks the value of LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION, and what's wierd about No. Virginia is one place can be dry as a bone for nectar, and then, say, only 5 miles away, it's like the nectar Garden of Eden. I'm on year 2, so I don't trust my beek instincts yet. Some Virginians say there's a second flow in August from golden rod. Others say we're done for the year. Will it sustain my mega hive? Probably not, my opinion. That's why I plan to feed 1:1 sugar syrup the last 2 weeks in August.

A couple questions, now that I've got you on the line:

1. Why did you use 3 deeps as your standard broodnest? -- is it to have enough bees to survive the St Albans winters?

2. Karla and I (and several club members involved in our SARE grant efforts here in P.W. County Va) are overwintering nucs (Larry Connor's Increase Essentials is standard reading fare!). Larry describes yours and Kirk Webster's successes with summer increases, then overwintering. I planned to build the mega hive for the puropose of putting my overwinter double nuc (a modified Brushy Mountain queen castle with screen bottom board) on top of it for warmth. I'll feed syrup to my mega-hive through September to get their honey reserves up, then in October (it gets cold here in November) I plan to set the overwinter nuc on that. My question is this: Is this a good idea?

I just worry that the overwinter nuc would be better insured survival by the warmth of another hive. Our winters are no where near the intensity as they are in your area.

So, to recap: why 3 deep boxes, and is there a better way to overwinter nucs than putting a double nuc on top of a big colony for warmth?

Oh, yeah, my 10 medium stack reference was a pure estimate. I did no counting of your boxes, per se, but the mental imagery of white and weathered hive bodies towering like city skyscrapers over a foraging Vermont field sticks with me!


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

*Default How many hive bodies is too many?*

When the ladder becomes too dangerous to climb to the top. Two deeps and nine mediums is tall for me.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

My problem is that the ladder is always looks OK going up....it's coming down that gets me!


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## papa bear (Nov 1, 2005)

in Ormand Aebi's "the art and adventure of beekeeping", he talks about going 7 supers above the brood chamber. but he also says that if you run out of supers or feel that this is too high you can harvest as you add.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

To answer the question in your opening title, as far as I'm concerned, even *one* "hive body" is too many. Hive body is the term most often used to indicate a 10-frame deep super, when used as a component of the brood chamber.


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

I think you misunderstood my question. I'm not asking how many honey supers can be stacked on top of brood chambers, I'm asking what's the max number of brood chambers total, deeps and mediums, that can be effectively used.

Some people use two deeps, or three mediums or a deep and a medium, for brood. What if you stack more brood boxes? Most literature advises against too many or else QMP doesn't reach the "hinterlands" of the hive very effectively.

When you said "even one hive body is too many," I thought, is this guy into feral bees out of a tree trunk?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I presently use all 8-frame medium supers for brood or honey. For a very long time I tried to get my bees to use the equivalent of two deep supers for their brood nest, but recently I seem to have my best success using only two medium 8-frame supers as my brood nest. I don't force my bees to go through the brood nest to access the honey supers. Foragers have to go through a queen excluder to access the brood nest, but not to enter the honey supers.


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Joseph Clemens said:


> Foragers have to go through a queen excluder to access the brood nest, but not to enter the honey supers.


Hmmmm, now THAT's interesting. If I'm reading you right, you either have a queen excluder between your bottom board and your bottom brood box, or you have an Imrie shim with an entrance for the bees to enter from the outside direct into the honey supers, positioned on top of the brood boxes.

If your set up is the former, then does that effectively deter swarming (i.e. the queen can't descend down to the bottom board to exit?

If that's the case, how do you allow drones to pass through excluders?

This has evolved into a different topic, now -- swarm prevention using queen excluders...


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I no longer use a "bottom board" per se, just a screened bottom - sealed to the bees but mites can drop out and air can, of course, go in and out. Here is a link to how I configured my hives: Configuration for Honey

I initially drilled a 7/16" hole in the upper back side of the top brood super for drones and queens, but since then I have come to believe the 7/16" hole is not sufficient, so since then I have taken to creating a narrow access to the top back of the brood supers, sliding the excluder forward enough to create an approximately 1/4" slot for drones and queens to bypass the excluder. The excluder still guards the honey supers, somehow this opening on the back side hasn't gotten much attention from the foragers.


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

Joseph Clemens said:


> I no longer use a "bottom board" per se, just a screened bottom - sealed to the bees but mites can drop out and air can, of course, go in and out. Here is a link to how I configured my hives: Configuration for Honey
> 
> In Jan-Feb here some nights get down to mid-upper 20's, and lots of nights in the mid to upper 30's. But the day time temps mostly reach mid 50's +. Would they be ok in a situation like that with just a sbb? I like the idea of just a sbb.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Derek1,
Sounds like your climate is very much like ours here.


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

Thought it was. Just didn't know how cold the winter nights got there. But I know now. Thanks. I think I will try the sbb only.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

fatscher said:


> A couple questions, now that I've got you on the line:
> 
> 1. Why did you use 3 deeps as your standard broodnest? -- is it to have enough bees to survive the St Albans winters?
> 
> 2. Karla and I (and several club members involved in our SARE grant efforts here in P.W. County Va) are overwintering nucs (Larry Connor's Increase Essentials is standard reading fare!). Larry describes yours and Kirk Webster's successes with summer increases, then overwintering. I planned to build the mega hive for the puropose of putting my overwinter double nuc (a modified Brushy Mountain queen castle with screen bottom board) on top of it for warmth. I'll feed syrup to my mega-hive through September to get their honey reserves up, then in October (it gets cold here in November) I plan to set the overwinter nuc on that. My question is this: Is this a good idea?


1. For a couple reasons. Since we have such a strong nectar/pollen flow here for most of the summer, I like having an unlimited broodnest. Having access to 3 deeps gives the queens all the comb space they want to lay in, without having to compete with incomming for space. Makes for huge colonies. Also, it helps control early swarming, as the queens won't run out of room in the spring before supers are on...gives me some extra time to get my spring work done. I have now reduced the size of my broodnests to 2 deep and 1 medium. Gives a bit more honey in supers, and still plenty of room for queens.

2. That's what I do. Winter my nucs on the top of production colonies. We have deep snow here, and having the nucs on hives keeps them out of it. Not sure how necessary that really is. Kirk winters his on pallets...covered by snow. 

You might be able to winter the nucs right on hive stands...in VA. Bleta12 does in CT. You haven't really got much of a winter there anyway, but I don't think it would hurt to winter above a colony. They don't need much extra heat. I've had the production colony doe lots of times, and the nucs above winter just fine.


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## Noel V (Jun 17, 2008)

Joseph Clemens said:


> I no longer use a "bottom board" per se, just a screened bottom - sealed to the bees but mites can drop out and air can, of course, go in and out. Here is a link to how I configured my hives: Configuration for Honey
> 
> I initially drilled a 7/16" hole in the upper back side of the top brood super for drones and queens, but since then I have come to believe the 7/16" hole is not sufficient, so since then I have taken to creating a narrow access to the top back of the brood supers, sliding the excluder forward enough to create an approximately 1/4" slot for drones and queens to bypass the excluder. The excluder still guards the honey supers, somehow this opening on the back side hasn't gotten much attention from the foragers.






Why not keep the bottom entrance and forget about the 7/16" hole while keeping the 1/4" entrances at each super?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Noel V said:


> Why not keep the bottom entrance and forget about the 7/16" hole while keeping the 1/4" entrances at each super?


If I kept bottom entrances I wouldn't have any bees left in my hives, the toads would have eaten them all by now. Even with this configuration making it extremely difficult for the toads to get to the bees, I've found them to still be jumping up to eat bees from their higher entrances or whenever a bee flies within their reach, so I've captured and relocated almost 120 toads, so far. Besides the point is to keep the brood nest from getting congested with nectar, which the foragers will put into empty brood nest comb if they reach the brood nest before they reach the honey supers. Having an easy entrance directly into the brood nest would defeat the purpose of making access to the honey supers the easiest access for all the foragers. This way the bees can easily get to the brood nest, but have to go down through the queen excluder to do so, while the foragers don't need to enter the brood nest at all. I find that as long as I keep plenty of empty supers, with easy access, above the brood nest and above the queen excluder, the brood nest stays full of brood but clear of congestion from nectar. My hives have never been stronger and I've had my best year *ever*, and not a single swarm, from my hives, yet.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

fatscher said:


> I think you misunderstood my question. I'm not asking how many honey supers can be stacked on top of brood chambers, I'm asking what's the max number of brood chambers total, deeps and mediums, that can be effectively used.


Consider it this way, fatscher. A prolific queen can lay about 1500 eggs per day at the peak season. If the typical time from egg to emerging adult is about 24 days then to make the most of her you'd need enough brood frames for 1500x24=36000 available cells. So, you need to estimate how many cells are available in whatever size boxes you use, taking into account those that are likely used for honey and pollen. I'd guess that you can have about 6 frames per box as the outer two on each side will often be used for honey and pollen. Now, does anyone know how many cells, on average, a deep and a medium frame have?


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