# Lemongrass or Lemongrass?? They're different oils...



## enchplant (Apr 10, 2011)

I used that Aura Cacia brand that I got from Whole foods and it seemed to work great. I put up a trap just the other day with a couple of drops of that inside and while i was still nailing it onto the tree there were bees going in and out of the entrance!


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

I just bought 4 ozs of cymbopogon flexuosus I hope it works. My mom just smelled it and said it smells just like lemon pledge, and it sure does. I wonder if you could spray some lemon pledge in your trap and save a couple of bucks?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Before anyone uses Lemon Pledge, be sure to read the label. Then decide if you want to use it.

cchoganjr


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Lemon pledge does not work. Or at least is doesn't seem to make a swarm trap any more desireable to the bees.

Last summer, when going around to check on some traps, after reading of other's success on beesource using lemon pledge, I sprayed lemon pledge on the outside of the empty traps (wouldn't dare spray the inside). It made no improvement in catching more swarms. I usually put up two or three traps in each location and sprayed the outside of one trap, leaving one trap unsprayed.

Just cause it smells like Lemon Pledge don't mean it works like Lemon Pledge.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Yeah, there are different "lemongrass oils." I share this from bee-l.

Chemistry Break!

Citral (C10H16O)
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/118847/citral-C10H16O
http://www.nda.agric.za/docs/Brochures/EssOilsLemongrass.pdf

"lemongrass oil contains 70-80% cirtal".

This is why straight lemongrass oil works pretty well as a substitute for nasanov pheromone/attractant. But, not all lemongrass oil is the same, and purchasing the wrong lemongrass oil might not yield the same effects as others...i.e., the plant species is important.

From the drugs.com website, http://www.drugs.com/npp/lemongrass.html: 

1. Cymbopogon Citratus Lemongrass:
Contains approximately 0.4% volatile oil. The oil contains 65% to 85% citral, a mixture of 2 geometric isomers, geraniol and neral. Related compounds geraniol, geranic acid, and nerolic acid have also been identified. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 Other compounds found in the oil include myrcene (12% to 25%), diterpenes, methylheptenone, citronellol, linalol, farnesol, other alcohols, aldehydes, linalool, terpineol, and more than a dozen other minor fragrant components. 11 , 12 , 13 Geographical variations in the chemical constituents have been noted. 14 , 15 , 16

Nonvolatile components of C. citratus consist of luteolins, ****-orientin, chlorogenic acid, caffeic acid, p -coumaric acid, fructose, sucrose, octacosanol, and others. 17 Flavonoids luteolin and 6-C-glucoside have also been isolated. 18 , 19

2. Cymbopogon Flexuosus Lemongrass:
Contains up to 85% citral. However, many strains have a higher concentration of geraniol (50%), with citral (10% to 20%) and methyl eugenol as minor components. 

3. Cymbopogon ?? Lemongrass:
Another type of East Indian lemongrass is reported to contain no citral but up to 30% borneol. 3

Per Wikipedia, there are about 55 different species of Lemongrass. Sticking to C. flexuosus and C. citratus is the best bet.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Lebermuth sells only Cymbopogon flexuosus in three different grades.

I would think that Cymbopogon flexuosus is fine...


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks everybody for the feedback. 

enchplant...good to know you've had some response to the Aura Cacia brand. I've already got two double-decker 5-frame medium nucs deployed and have four 8-frame deeps with medium frames in them hopefully to deploy this weekend. All of them have already been treated with the AC lemongrass (flexuosus) so hopefully it will work good.

Cleo C. Hogan Jr, do you use lemongrass oil or some other lure? I'm sure you've tried a few in your trappings. Could you share with us your favorite(s)? Thanks!

Thanks for the chemistry lesson, Grant. Similar, but different oils.

BeeCurious, I guess to really figure out whether the citratus or the flexuosus varieties would be the most attractive to the bees a study of sorts would have to be done. I've never seen a precise recommendation made...just "lemongrass". So, in all probably both of them works...but I wonder if one works better than the other one. I may order a small bottle of citratus to use as a "refresher".

Ed


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Lemon pledge does not work. Or at least is doesn't seem to make a swarm trap any more desireable to the bees.

The smell of it has changed in recent times. It now smells more like lemon where it used to smell more like lemongrass.

The things you're looking for mostly are Geranial and Neral which are isomers of each other and when mixed are called Citral.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Michael, I'm probably mistaken (it seems I have been a lot recently) but I believe that you put LGO at the top of your list for swarm lures. Which brand of LGO do you use?

Thanks,
Ed


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Which brand of LGO do you use?

Sorry, I can't say. I wasn't paying attention at the time and it's not handy at the moment. I ordered it on the internet years ago and am still using the same bottle.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

I have a napkin-full of Aura Cacia in my top bar hive right now, along with some beeswax shavings and a piece of black comb. I'm in central Florida and haven't had any luck yet. 

Here's a photo of my hive and where it's presently located.









Can anyone think of a reason why bees would hate this?

Does it need to be a different contraption to be effective?

Maybe I should just shut up and be patient?

I tell you all one thing, I have a bunch of flowers I have planted in my backyard that are just now starting to bloom. Maybe there will be more scouts flying around looking for future swarm housing as they have more nectar flowing in my yard, perhaps.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

Speaking of scouts, does anyone know if bees plan ahead where they are going to swarm? Do they send scouts out days/weeks ahead of their "planned" swarm date to find potential housing? 

Everything else they do seems so purposeful and choreographed. I find it hard to believe the process of swarming is just a bunch chaos.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Yes, they plan ahead...according to Justin O. Schmidt (if I got his name spelled right). He watched scouts guard a trap for 19 days prior to the swarm moving in.

Swarm trapping is anticipatory. I always try to get them up before the first swarm calls roll in. Of course, the operative word is "try."

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I have a napkin-full of Aura Cacia...

I assume that's a brand name and not a plant?

>Can anyone think of a reason why bees would hate this?

Yes. Anything over 4 drops is too much. A "napkin full" sounds like WAY too much... it will drive them away.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> >(RE: Aura Cacia)
> 
> I assume that's a brand name and not a plant?


Yes, that's a brand name of lemongrass oil that's of the flexuosus variety.




Michael Bush said:


> Yes. Anything over 4 drops is too much. A "napkin full" sounds like WAY too much... it will drive them away.


Thanks, I really appreciate the tip. I will immediately head out to the hive and switch out the maxed-out napkin to a more suitable one. Ironically, I stepped out there this evening and found a frog resting on the entrance of the hive. I brushed it away. A lizard was trying to make a home the other day, also.


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## stevedc (Feb 24, 2012)

i have two traps out and a trapout box i'm about to set up. just checked my bottle of "lemongrass oil" and it says 100% pure lemongrass, therapeutic grade essential oil. that's it, from Silky Scents. am i pissing in the wind?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would just remove the napkin and leave it as is. I'm sure enough smell is there from a "napkin full" without putting anything back in.

>"lemongrass oil" and it says 100% pure lemongrass, therapeutic grade essential oil

That should work fine.


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

Stevedc, mine is theapeutic grade and it is the Flexuosus variety, so I would imagine that is what yours is also.


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## stevedc (Feb 24, 2012)

thank you both mr. bush and mr. fisher.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

..


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

PatBeek said:


> I have a napkin-full of Aura Cacia in my top bar hive right now, along with some beeswax shavings and a piece of black comb. I'm in central Florida and haven't had any luck yet.
> 
> Here's a photo of my hive and where it's presently located.
> 
> ...


No actual experience on my part, but from what I've read -- maybe get it a little more elevated on a temporary basis?

It also seems from reading this forum, some locations never work in attracting swarms, and others are great for repeat swarms, so you may want to try more locations with more traps?


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

PatBeek said:


> Speaking of scouts, does anyone know if bees plan ahead where they are going to swarm? Do they send scouts out days/weeks ahead of their "planned" swarm date to find potential housing?
> 
> Everything else they do seems so purposeful and choreographed. I find it hard to believe the process of swarming is just a bunch chaos.


Actually, it's a democratic convention (note the small "d"). From reading Seeley's book, as swarming gets close, some foragers switch over to being scouts (lose interest in nectar and seek out hive-like locations). Then when the bees swarm, the scouts come back and report (dance) on various sites (one site per scout). Based on the quality of site, the dance will be more vigorous (but different scouts vary in their amount of dancing), and will recruit more scouts. They may make several return trips, but the original bees gradually lose interest in a site, but if it's a quality site, more and more scouts will be recruited - until supposedly the number of scouts reaches a quorum (20-25 bees), then those scouts arouse the swarm, and guide them to the new nest.


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## BuckeyeBeek (Apr 16, 2013)

This is the stuff I purchased. I can't say that it works any better or worse than any other brands but last year I put out 5 traps and caught 2 swarms. A little 1 ounce bottle goes a long way.

http://www.amazon.com/Lemongrass-Es...&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00


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## crmauch (Mar 3, 2016)

This is the stuff I purchased (w/ shipping ~$7) (0.5 oz)

http://www.bulkapothecary.com/product/essential-oils/pure-therapeutic-grade/lemongrass-essential-oil/

Don't know if it works -- haven't tried it yet. Also I'm not seeing any honeybees on my fruit trees so I expect very low surrounding populations.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

So which is suppose to be better, and has anyone done a comparison ? ?
C. citratus or C. Flexuosus


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

PatBeek said:


> Yes, that's a brand name of lemongrass oil that's of the flexuosus variety.
> 
> Thanks, I really appreciate the tip. I will immediately head out to the hive and switch out the maxed-out napkin to a more suitable one. Ironically, I stepped out there this evening and found a frog resting on the entrance of the hive. I brushed it away. A lizard was trying to make a home the other day, also.


So 4 drops of LGO will attract scout bees, and a napkinful will attract frogs and lizards. Filed for future reference!

More OT, I have a 1 oz. bottle of "100% Pure Cymbopogon *citratus*" that I bought from amazon for $7.00 with free shipping. 

I am 1 for 1 in using this to attract swarms. n=1, σ = ∞.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

I have used both, and the C. flexuosus is prefered by the bees, by a good margin. Aromatherapy oils, food grade, all are good. Avoid the really cheap perfume oil. It may not even be lemongrass. Although, a major component of GOOD fragrances is in Lemongrass. I would just go to a health food store, & buy a good one.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

crmauch said:


> Actually, it's a democratic convention (note the small "d"). From reading Seeley's book, as swarming gets close, some foragers switch over to being scouts (lose interest in nectar and seek out hive-like locations)...


There is new information about scouts finding prospective sites before a swarm leaves the hive and actually defending the new, prospective site until the swarm arrives. Hear it in one of Dr. Rangel's presentations at the National Honey Show last year: Check it out HERE, about 57:45 into the lecture. You will probably want to hear the entire lecture. HTH


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

jadebees said:


> I have used both, and the C. flexuosus is prefered by the bees, by a good margin.


Interesting. Can you describe your experimental methodology? 

Just wondering if this is something that can be easily repeated by others.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

There was no experimental methodology. There was , doing the research, making various swarm lure blends, and placing, over the years , at least 500 swarm lure sets. The times I made swarm lure with C. Citratus, it was rejected, mostly. That may be the species that citronella oil is made from. I didn't experiment. It was a commitment to known good information. It's all on the internet, some very good info.


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## Tigger19687 (Dec 27, 2014)

I wonder if it is a regional thing


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> So 4 drops of LGO will attract scout bees, and a napkinful will attract frogs and lizards. Filed for future reference!
> 
> More OT, I have a 1 oz. bottle of "100% Pure Cymbopogon *citratus*" that I bought from amazon for $7.00 with free shipping.
> 
> I am 1 for 1 in using this to attract swarms. n=1, σ = ∞.


Let me amend this. I'm pretty sure the amazon page said "citratus" when I bought it, but it's been amended to read "flexuous," and when I checked my bottle today, it reads, "flexuous."

And I just caught my 2nd swarm using it, so now I'm batting 100%, n=2, σ = 0.


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## NY14804 (Feb 8, 2016)

jadebees said:


> I have used both, and the C. flexuosus is prefered by the bees, by a good margin.


I used a brand of C. flexuosus type last year and had excellent results. I bought a different brand of C. flexuosus this year to have more on hand. I didn't know there was different types of LGO until I just read these posts. It seems I got lucky buying the preferred type.


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