# Mini Mating Nuc



## BGhoney

I made some for myself , they use 3 half deep frames. they were plastic frames and I roto zipped them in half, then made the nuc boxes to fit..they work great but they can fill up quick with bees if you leave them to long. I slotted the back end for a boardman feeder the front just has a 3/4 hole


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## Velbert

Go to the online catalog. *www.beeworks.com
Go to page 2 on queen rearing


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## Velbert

Bee works top bar mini nuc. The end with the sealed honey is a feeder will hold a pint of feed


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## Daniel Y

I started with 4 half frame deep mini nucs. converted to queen castle (10 frame deep with 4 compartments two deep frames each). Uses exactly the same amount of resources without the hassle of half frames. They serve barely long enough to get a queen mated and confirmed. don't slack on moving them to a 5 frame. Frames can be hard to remove from such a narrow space. I never did get a queen started in the mini nucs because I had to stop and get comb drawn in them. I will attempt to mate queens in them next spring.

Adding bees to a half frame is also a pain so I am going to attempt to get them filled with brood before transferring them to the nuc. my half frames attach together and will fit in a full size box.

I see pluses and minuses in both cases. I only got 50% success in getting queens mated which worked out great for moving frames to 5 frame nucs. Not so good for mating rate.


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## Bill91143

I started raising a few queens this past season, and I used 5 frame nucs. It takes more bees to raise queens, but if you don't use the queens right a way, you can just leave them in the nuc and they do fine. I think they mate better and definitely start laying better because of the extra room. If you don't use the queen you can easily grow them into a hive and add to your apiary, or sell as a 10 frame hive. If you are raising a few queens for yourself and a few extra for friends then I think nucs are definitely the way to go. If a full commercial queen operation is your plan then obviously the more queens you can raise on the least amount of resources is the way to go, but don't sacrifice quality for quantity.


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## Velbert

This is 1/2 length 4 frame medium depth Mini Nuc
Very well mated and laying queen you can evaluate this by the solid brood pattern not the size of the frame









Here is a very good laying queen from a 5 frame deep mating nuc.
She don't look any better than the queen out of the 4 frame mini nuc

I the a lot of good laying queens come from a well fed graft and plenty of available drones to mate withand good weather for mating flights.
What ever you use you have to learn to work and figure out how to applied the best usage of product


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## Velbert

Here is another 4 frame 1/2 length medium depth
Her pattern don't look as good. And here you will need to learn how to figure out is she not mated well or has there been a problem nuc mites or did they have a lay worker that has messed up the available cells for her to lay in because there may have been drone brood on some worker cells or disease like post mite syndrome or some other factor.


This is a video tap


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## Velbert

Here's another well mated and laying queen in a WWW.beeworks.com mini mating nuc
And you don't have to let them be sealed just let the eggs hatch you will see the same pattern 
And the way to achieve this make sure they have good empty brood combs to lay in


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## Lauri

I am actually going to sell these mini mating nucs. They take three half sized top bars which are included in most of them. I believe I have 19 of them. $10.00 each of you buy them all and pick them up-so you would have to be local. Shipping probably would cost more than they are worth. You just shake some young bees into a box and scoop them up to fill the nuc. Easy to do and doesn't take many resources, , but my climate is a bit too cool for this small nuc and I prefer larger ones.














































Some are screened bottoms, some are solid. Some have lid with hinge, some are migratory style.

No interior feeders, I feed them the same as the larger mating nucs I use now> Just get a small thin piece of plywood with a screened hole in the top. Invert mason jar over screen.



















If I have to feed in the fall or rain, I just put a coffee can or flower pot over the jar to keep it dry or avoid attracting robbers.










I'm in Roy Washington


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## Tiny Barn Farm

BGhoney said:


> I made some for myself , they use 3 half deep frames. they were plastic frames and I roto zipped them in half, then made the nuc boxes to fit..they work great but they can fill up quick with bees if you leave them to long. I slotted the back end for a boardman feeder the front just has a 3/4 hole


I put slots on the back of the last bunch of 5 frame nucs I built, they work great. I have tried the plastic but the bees don't seem to draw it out as well as wax foundation for me.


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## Tiny Barn Farm

Bill91143 said:


> I started raising a few queens this past season, and I used 5 frame nucs. It takes more bees to raise queens, but if you don't use the queens right a way, you can just leave them in the nuc and they do fine. I think they mate better and definitely start laying better because of the extra room. If you don't use the queen you can easily grow them into a hive and add to your apiary, or sell as a 10 frame hive. If you are raising a few queens for yourself and a few extra for friends then I think nucs are definitely the way to go. If a full commercial queen operation is your plan then obviously the more queens you can raise on the least amount of resources is the way to go, but don't sacrifice quality for quantity.


Bill i'm just north of you in Nelson County Ky. I used 5 frame deeps and a queen castle earlier this year but would like to try and utilize my resource bees better. Mainly for queens I raise for other people.



Daniel Y said:


> I started with 4 half frame deep mini nucs. converted to queen castle (10 frame deep with 4 compartments two deep frames each). Uses exactly the same amount of resources without the hassle of half frames. They serve barely long enough to get a queen mated and confirmed. don't slack on moving them to a 5 frame. Frames can be hard to remove from such a narrow space. I never did get a queen started in the mini nucs because I had to stop and get comb drawn in them. I will attempt to mate queens in them next spring.
> 
> Adding bees to a half frame is also a pain so I am going to attempt to get them filled with brood before transferring them to the nuc. my half frames attach together and will fit in a full size box.
> 
> I see pluses and minuses in both cases. I only got 50% success in getting queens mated which worked out great for moving frames to 5 frame nucs. Not so good for mating rate.


I like that idea, I may try my queen castle with just 2 deeps instead of 3.


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## Tiny Barn Farm

Velbert said:


> Bee works top bar mini nuc. The end with the sealed honey is a feeder will hold a pint of feed


Your pictures are Great! Are the top bars in the Bee Works nuc half width bars and how deep are they?


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## Tiny Barn Farm

Lauri said:


> I am actually going to sell these mini mating nucs. They take three half sized top bars which are included in most of them. I believe I have 19 of them. $10.00 each of you buy them all and pick them up-so you would have to be local. Shipping probably would cost more than they are worth. You just shake some young bees into a box and scoop them up to fill the nuc. Easy to do and doesn't take many resources, , but my climate is a bit too cool for this small nuc and I prefer larger ones.


I'm in KY but wish I lived closer that's a heck of a deal! I tried to edit my location but it won't let me. Are the larger ones you use now just half length 5 frame deeps?


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## Lauri

Yes, I get my frames and cut them down. Remill them and make 9 1/4" half deeps. I've tried many mating nuc sizes and types and like these frames the best. You have less outside frame exposure and more interior frame exposure, when you compare five deep half frames to two standard deeps. That means they will be more apt to lay up more cells even in cold weather when avoiding the outside frame.

I will be milling up at least another 1000 of these this winter. Not hard to do, but time consuming. I wouldn't bother if they were not worth it. I actually really like working with them in the hives. I also like the way the bees draw them out in a large hive setting. I can aggressivly alternate them with drawn frames and they work them in a flash.


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## Lauri

When my local customers come over to get a queen, they are welcome to look in the nuc as I collect her. If they don't have time and want her ready to go when they get here I can take a photo of her on the frame so they can see what she looks like and see she was laying well. Information about her genetics included.
I have not even come close to producing enough queens to satisfy my local customers-so I don't ship yet. My price reflects some personal customer service and unique local genetics. 

This is how it looks :



















I also take a video or photo of each breeder queen, so if the customer is really interested, they can see just where their new queen came from and the hives traits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-VW_PMRHCs

Here's a just hatched daughter hot out of the incubator, from the breeder queen in video shown above, licking honey off my finger. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i50Yf8vVGWY

Most people don't care about any of this, but some do.


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## Velbert

The picture of my deep is a full length deep 5 frame nuc


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## Velbert

The beeworks topbar frames are only about 6" long 2 frames in front are about 4" deep the 2 frames closes to the feeder end are about 5" deep


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## Joseph Clemens

I've tried several different configurations/types of mini mating nucs. I've had little positive results; first attempt, all the virgins departed on their mating flights and the majority of the worker populations departed with them, producing a virtual absconding event. Despite the use of fewer resources, it would have been even more economical if the results had actually produced some queens. At least the queens had escaped to the local feral environment, hopefully, successfully.

Also, when I want to use the queens in mating nucs, or grow mating nucs into full-size colonies, it is quite problematic to utilize the mini nuc resources to accomplish that goal. Similar to the reason for using gear with all one size frame, using all normal size frames, in various sized nucs, for mating, certainly simplifies all necessary manipulations.


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## Lauri

I agree with Joseph about all one size gear. If I was smart I'd heed that advise. But if you are on a smaller, more manageable scale and don't mind making custom stuff, mini's are workable. 

I've actually never had a single mini abscond. But I overwinter large colonies on mini's, move almost the entire hive in spring and let the foragers fly back to the old location where the established queen and any open brood is waiting. I give them new frames to draw out, feed them and let them rebuild. 

After 2 or 3 days( So I can find and easily remove all wild queen cells) I take the remaining frames of young bees, capped brood and feed from the hive I moved and distribute to the mating nucs as the virgins hatch out in the incubator. The bees on these frames are all young-so they are very receptive to the direct release of virgin and will stay put in the new nuc, avoiding chilled brood. No one will fly back to the old hive, because any that were old enough to do so, already did. Your mating nuc stays as strong as you make it. This also gives me a lot of time to leasurly make up the mating nucs and place the queens as they hatch, usually over a 24 hour period. Wild cells are removed, new nuc is assembled and virgin queen is installed all at once. No further disturbance is required

Note: You must be sure you have plenty of young bees in the hive or they'll all fly back and leave the brood to chill. Install the moved hive on a solid bottom board and control drafts.

Here is a divided 10 frame deep. You can start out just a few frames of bees and brood with a follower board, but you have enough room to grow, eventually into over wintering strength with your last round of queens.



















There are lots of mating nucs types and sizes that will work. It just depends on your style and what's available to you. I like a larger one myself. I mark my queens at hatching time so I don't mind a more populated nuc. I also leave the queen in the mating nucs for a while until they are sold or needed so I don't like restricting a young queen from laying. Even in a five frame deep half frame size (Equivelent 2 1/2 deep standard frames) , she will lay it up mighty fast and have no where else to lay. Once they lose their momentum, it takes a while to get it back. You are almost better off to install a virgin compared to a queen that has been supressed. The productivity ends up being pretty close to the same, once the mated queen is accepted in a new hive and starts laying well again. At lease in my experience.

Of course you could have smaller nucs if you can remove them on time on a schedule so they don't get supressed. As soon as they lay it up, they are out, new virgin in. The scheduling is still a little tricky for me at this point. If you banked them it would be easier, but the you get back to that interupted laying or suppression.

Here is a couple more photos of half sized deeps in standard box's-just stack'em up for a standard size hive 
With a simple divider stapled in, you can use this deep with standard frames or mini frames..room for interior feeder on the other side of the board. They will never cross and make a mess.










here's the same box with mini frames and a feeder. No need to put the standard frame in there. I just did it to show you could. (It could be a honey frame for feeding instead of feeder.)









Same box-occupied:










I've overwintered these smaller frames, five deeps high, with excellent results. With that big empty spot on one side you'd think it would cause chilling or invite a burr comb mess. Nope. it works surprisingly well. If you look closely you will see this is two deeps, stacked. I removed three deeps of capped honey right before I took this photo. The left side is totally clean. No comb. They just won't occupy that side, even though they have access to do so.

Need frames drawn out? Toss them over standard frames. Different directions? No matter, no mess.









Or you can make your mini frames and install a package on the in spring. Gets them drawn out in a hurry.




Mini frames all cut and milled ready for assembly. Cut your rite cell with miter saw.













You'd think I was trying to sell mini frames here, LOL. I do like them. But I also have at least half my mating nucs on standard frames. They start out as mating nucs but are grown to overwintering nucs. 

Probably too much information...Now you're really confused


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## Velbert

Here's a size comparison of beeworks MINI MATING NUC Bottom and mannlakes 3 frame mini nuc
On top









BACK frame Beeworks,FRONT frame mannlakes


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## Lauri

Beeworks is clearly better, but when I tried to buy some last year they were out of stock. They told me too, with shipping costs it would probably not be worth it for me. Are they available now? I saw this photo last year too., Impressive.
Thanks Velbert!


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## Velbert

Lauri it been a few year since i bought some they have them on there web page i just figured they kept them in stock


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## beekuk

The top mini nuc in the last photograph is called a Swi-bine, and the lower one a Kieler. The Swi-bine is a cheaper version of the Apidea.

Some really good photographs in this thread.


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## max2

Lauri - where do you get these coloured, round closures from?
thanks

m


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## Lauri

I got the disk excluders from Beeworks in Canada. I just lightly spray painted some of them different colors. They come all black. 
Mann Lake now has disk exluders that are nice and small-metal.


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## Tiny Barn Farm

Lauri, in beekeeping I don't think there is such thing as too much information, thank you! All the pictures are Great, both yours and Velberts! It's nice to see the side by side comparison. I wouldn't have thought there was that big of a size difference between beeworks and mann lake. Does anyone in the US carry the Beeworks nuc? KY is closer to Beeworks than WA but is it the fact it's coming from Canada that makes shipping so high? Lauri you should consider selling frames since the ones you make sure look like they work good!


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## Daniel Y

Laurie, I will repeat the no such thing as to much info. Thanks for taking the time to post it all. I like your posts with all the pictures and details.

I noticed you mark your queens as virgins. Have you seen any issues with acceptance or success in mating due to this. I have heard others say it may result in them being rejected. I incubate my queen cells as well and woudl prefer to just mark them as they emerge. gets it all done in one step.

If you are selling queens I don't see much issue with mini frames since you will be recycling the nuc for the next virgin. For expanding into a colony to keep I like the full length frames since they simply pull out of the mating nuc get placed in a 5 frame with 3 additional frames. IN warm weather I will give them 3 frames of foundation. As it turned out every other compartment failed to get a queen to return from her mating flight. so i simply placed the queenless frames in the nuc with the frames from a queenright compartment and instantly had 4 of 5 fraems filled and covered with bees. tons of room for the new queen to lay in also. Most of these grew to two deep 5 frame boxes in about a month. Some of them not so much. They are all strong 5 frame nucs goign into winter though. Some of them just did not get that second box of honey made. One I had to add a frame of brood to to boost it's population. In all I produced 10 5 frame nucs from 3 colonies in about a month.


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## Lauri

I have had great luck with marking queens at time of hatching. It is such a time saver I would still do it if I had a somewhat reduced return, but I don't. I have a very high return percentages. 

I generally have 80-100% hatch rate out of the incubator, then cull out any queens that are not the most impressive. This gives me good specimens to place in the mating nucs. I know there is a virgin in each one..no unknown hatch rate to wonder about.

My biggest failure is when I take out a mated queen and leave the mini deep nuc overnight to prep for direct release of the new virgin, I sometimes miss a queen cell they have started. They accept the virgin, she goes out and gets mated and returns...If she is back in the hive in the middle of the day, 10-12 days after placing I consider her successfully returned. Then I go several days later to collect her and find there is a fat new unmarked queen in her place. DOH. I hate that! The queen cell I missed continued to grow while she was out getting mated. When it hatched, the new virgin killed the newly mated one. 

When I check for a return, I really need to go through the entire nuc, not just stop when I find the queen.

If I removed all my mated queens on a schedule and immediately placed ripe queen cells in the nucs It would be easier. But then I'd have to go back to check for hatch success. Then find unmarked queens. But I generally sell queens one at a time here and don't like to bank them, so removing them on a schedule isn't easy. I'm still in the 'figuring out what I want to do' mode. My scheduling and organizing skills will come with experience, every year I get better. Every fall I think about, how I wish I knew in spring, what I figured out during the summer months. Makes me look forward to the next season.


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## Dominic

What are the advantages of one over the other? Other than Mann Lake and BeeWorks, does anyone else offer them?


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## Lauri

I had thought I might make some stuff to sell when I first started a few years ago. But my bees have grown so much faster than I thought, I have had all I can handle just trying to make equipment for myself to stay ahead of them. Once I get my own stuff made and stocked, I may make some custom to sell. I buy my standard milled frames and hive body parts and assemble them, Make from scratch my bottom boards, inner covers, lids, custom mating nucs, etc. I save myself at least $100. a day, if I work for just a few hours. The savings adds up fast when you need a lot of equipment yourself. Plus I get to make custom stuff that fits my needs. The fence mounted mating nucs are so easy on my back...no bending, keeps ants, male dogs away, always level and secure, makes good use of space that would otherwise not be used, etc.

Here is how they hang, if you are interested. I use a machine screw with a good sized washer on the inside to hold the brackets on..I didn't trust screws to hold the weight once it is occupied and filled.










Use some 3/4" scrap to fir out the bottom and permanently add bottom board



















I run the shelf that holds frames on the router just a little deeper, so I can fit a small protein patty on top the frames.


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## Dominic

I just got Mann Lake's catalog and saw double mating nucs. Are these new? Any experiences with them?


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## Lauri

Dominic said:


> I just got Mann Lake's catalog and saw double mating nucs. Are these new? Any experiences with them?


No, other than I have seen them come on sale a few times, for $19.95 I believe....

They have a black Friday sale comeing soon for internet orders.Last year it was 10% off your entire order. 
I've been saving my $$ for a one time large order, instead of smaller orders all through out the year. Ya,the bill is going to be a little painful.


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## Dominic

In my quest for the cheapest mating nucs, I have come across this little box: http://www.bienen-voigt.de/en/Queen-breed/Mating-hive/Bivo-Mini-mating-hive1

Anyone has any experience with those? Including shipping it would cost me less (about a third) to make these come from Germany than going through any north-American supplier I could find, and these include entrance disks and the frames whereas the north-American ones sell both as extras.

One wonders how small we can push these things before they stop being usable, though.


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## apis maximus

Dominic said:


> In my quest for the cheapest mating nucs, I have come across this little box: http://www.bienen-voigt.de/en/Queen-breed/Mating-hive/Bivo-Mini-mating-hive1
> 
> Anyone has any experience with those?
> 
> One wonders how small we can push these things before they stop being usable, though.


I used them for the last 2 years...among other types/configurations. I've got mine ( 10 of them) from EH Thorne, shipped from UK. But just like your link, they are identical,Mini Bivo brand...made in Germany.

http://www.thorne.co.uk/queen/mating-hives?product_id=4402

Just like anything else in beekeeping, they sure can serve a purpose...have pluses and minuses
I used them for mating my virgin queens...Tried a few times with ripe cells, but for me, they worked great with young ( 2-7 days old) freshly emerged virgins. A cup of young bees + one young virgin+ a slab of fondant+ 2-3 nights in the dark, then let them fly. 
The young bees will draw new comb in those 2-3 days they spend closed in the dark. You have to pay attention though to the moment the newly mated queen will start laying. There is very little space to do so and she'll run out of available space and sometimes, the little hive will swarm/abscond.

If you notice in *Lauri's* post, she has/had no issues with absconding from her definitely larger mini nucs. And I agree with that. I also have some larger mini nucs, that I made from scrap wood and plywood, that are similar in volume with what Lauri uses...some in double, some in single compartment configuration. More space, more time to evaluate the newly mated queen.

If you look at the pictures *Velbert* posted on this thread, the ones made/sold by Mann Lake, are slightly bigger ( 3 frames vs. 2 ), and they work also, maybe giving a bit more space. I have also used those, and again, with these, I decided that going the route of using virgin queens, is the best for me. 

So, if you stay on top of them, you can take the mated queen out, put a new virgin in, let her get matted...and repeat the process. The eggs/brood laid by the previous queen will keep the process going. In my experience with them, they have absolutely no issues accepting a new virgin. Try that with a 5 frame deep nuc...or a larger hive.
If you use them during a flow, they can also get honey/pollen bound, and you might need some spare frames.

How small can you go before they they stop being usable?....FWIW, I also use the mini mating nucs with glass sides, also used by the Germans. Again, very small space, but for the right time and purpose, they work great. Two of them fit nicely in a larger box. A bit pricey...but I like them.
I could not get any German retailer to ship them to US, so I had a friend from Germany buy them there and then ship them. 

I wish I can post pictures on this forum...but I can't and I stopped trying...

You can see them featured in a few youtube videos. Like this one, see minute 4:48:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djR1nkCGbK0

This is one outfit that sells them in Germany:
http://www.bienenzuchtbedarf-geller....html&XTCsid=c1e722833e62c473aed9f8301a7f51c6


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## Lauri

Those German videos with the single frame/glass mini mating nucs were the inspiration for these larger ones. The glass is More a novilty though, not practical for mass production. 



















Here is how I fed them if I had foundationless comb chunks




























These also hang on the fence with a single bracket. Glass covered up with black foam poster board










No matter what size or desigh, one feature I love on all of them is a hinged lid. hinges are spendy..I look for them at garage sales, etc.


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## Dominic

Yea, I know about Thorne. When I found out a local supplier was selling mating nucs from Germany, I started looking for German nucs, where I found Thorne. And looking up the model, I found the maker, from which I can get it cheaper (no middle man, ship directly, one border crossing). They might not do small volumes though.

I find really interesting what those Germans are doing. The small hives look like they could have good potential for urban beekeeping. Instead of going uniform "all deeps", perhaps it'd be possible to go "all minis"? I can imagine that small hives like that, would allow for frequent removal of honey comb?

I really like the ones you made Lauri, by the way.


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## TWall

Lauri,

On your glass front nucs it looks like some have something slid in front of the glass to keep the light out?

What are your thoughs about a four frame nuc versus five frame? How quickly do they fill up your five frame nucs?

Thanks,

Tom


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## Dominic

apis maximus said:


> I used them for the last 2 years...among other types/configurations. I've got mine ( 10 of them) from EH Thorne, shipped from UK. But just like your link, they are identical,Mini Bivo brand...made in Germany.
> 
> http://www.thorne.co.uk/queen/mating-hives?product_id=4402
> 
> Just like anything else in beekeeping, they sure can serve a purpose...have pluses and minuses
> I used them for mating my virgin queens...Tried a few times with ripe cells, but for me, they worked great with young ( 2-7 days old) freshly emerged virgins. A cup of young bees + one young virgin+ a slab of fondant+ 2-3 nights in the dark, then let them fly.
> The young bees will draw new comb in those 2-3 days they spend closed in the dark. You have to pay attention though to the moment the newly mated queen will start laying. There is very little space to do so and she'll run out of available space and sometimes, the little hive will swarm/abscond.
> 
> If you notice in *Lauri's* post, she has/had no issues with absconding from her definitely larger mini nucs. And I agree with that. I also have some larger mini nucs, that I made from scrap wood and plywood, that are similar in volume with what Lauri uses...some in double, some in single compartment configuration. More space, more time to evaluate the newly mated queen.
> 
> If you look at the pictures *Velbert* posted on this thread, the ones made/sold by Mann Lake, are slightly bigger ( 3 frames vs. 2 ), and they work also, maybe giving a bit more space. I have also used those, and again, with these, I decided that going the route of using virgin queens, is the best for me.
> 
> So, if you stay on top of them, you can take the mated queen out, put a new virgin in, let her get matted...and repeat the process. The eggs/brood laid by the previous queen will keep the process going. In my experience with them, they have absolutely no issues accepting a new virgin. Try that with a 5 frame deep nuc...or a larger hive.
> If you use them during a flow, they can also get honey/pollen bound, and you might need some spare frames.
> 
> How small can you go before they they stop being usable?....FWIW, I also use the mini mating nucs with glass sides, also used by the Germans. Again, very small space, but for the right time and purpose, they work great. Two of them fit nicely in a larger box. A bit pricey...but I like them.
> I could not get any German retailer to ship them to US, so I had a friend from Germany buy them there and then ship them.
> 
> I wish I can post pictures on this forum...but I can't and I stopped trying...
> 
> You can see them featured in a few youtube videos. Like this one, see minute 4:48:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djR1nkCGbK0
> 
> This is one outfit that sells them in Germany:
> http://www.bienenzuchtbedarf-geller....html&XTCsid=c1e722833e62c473aed9f8301a7f51c6


I'm surprised to see that so many introduce virgin queens, I've always been told that using virgins had considerably lower success rates than using royal cells. Were these people forgetting to do something important that you have to do with virgins but not royal cells?

Those were interesting videos. The Germans sure use nice equipment, though boy does it look expensive to set that up on a large scale.


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## apis maximus

I guess it depends...I like to have the virgins emerged in my incubator. I like to see them, evaluate them, reject the ones that do not look OK to me...then mark them. 
I am also doing II, so I like to see my candidates for II right from the get go.

As far as introducing queen cells, I have no problems with that...but, it is different. If you place queen cells into those small, or very small mating nucs ( like the Germans use with one frame and glass sides) those cells need to be ready to hatch...if not, and you get a cold night, the bees might not be able to keep them warm enough. 
And really, there is no guessing if there is a virgin that emerged or not...if it is the virgin you want, not one from a "surprise" rogue cell...or one returned from mating that just got lost from her original hive.

Also, the larger the nuc, and the more bees you have in it...the likelier is for them to accept a cell, better than a virgin. I am using quite few 5 F deep nucs...I make them from early spring until late August...Those, as a routine, I re queen with cells, not with virgins. I've done it, it can be done, but it is different.
So, I do not think that " those people...are forgetting to do something important"...it is just another way to do things...in beekeeping. Serves a different purpose...works in different circumstances.


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## Lauri

TWall said:


> Lauri,
> 
> On your glass front nucs it looks like some have something slid in front of the glass to keep the light out?
> 
> What are your thoughs about a four frame nuc versus five frame? How quickly do they fill up your five frame nucs?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tom


Hi Tom, I leave my queens in the nucs until they have capped brood, so they do get strong pretty fast. Easy to control with mated queen removal timing though, or removal of a full frame here and there.
I used a foam poster board to close off the window. I also made some closures from 1/4"or 3/8" plywood scraps with a small knob..just stuff I had that was scrap lying around. I pick up hardware at garage sales, etc.

Glass was from the dollar store. It is actually a little opaque, but still clear enough to see through. It is actually a cuting board and is tempered-so stronger than plain glass.Only a buck










Here is a photo of the parts before assembly. I just made a simple frame, routed out sides to accept glass and used clear silicone to glue it in the frame.









Here you can see the plywood window cover and how I feed them. plywood top has screened hole under mason jar


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## marshmasterpat

Lauri said:


> I generally have 80-100% hatch rate out of the incubator, then cull out any queens that are not the most impressive. This gives me good specimens to place in the mating nucs. I know there is a virgin in each one..no unknown hatch rate to wonder about.


Forgive my ignorance but got to ask a few questions. 

How are you determining not impressive queens? 

Are you just eye balling them to compare?

Or are you looking at at production of the queen by judging the laying pattern?


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## Daniel Y

I had a thought on glass hives. place a red film on the glass and you never need red lights or covers.


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## Dominic

marshmasterpat said:


> Forgive my ignorance but got to ask a few questions.
> 
> How are you determining not impressive queens?
> 
> Are you just eye balling them to compare?
> 
> Or are you looking at at production of the queen by judging the laying pattern?


My understanding is that he's evaluating pre-mating quality, which, for most people, is size. Those who put in royal cells usually cull the smallest ones, so I guess it's logical for those who put in virgin queens to cull in the smallest ones too.


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## Dominic

apis maximus said:


> I guess it depends...I like to have the virgins emerged in my incubator. I like to see them, evaluate them, reject the ones that do not look OK to me...then mark them.
> I am also doing II, so I like to see my candidates for II right from the get go.
> 
> As far as introducing queen cells, I have no problems with that...but, it is different. If you place queen cells into those small, or very small mating nucs ( like the Germans use with one frame and glass sides) those cells need to be ready to hatch...if not, and you get a cold night, the bees might not be able to keep them warm enough.
> And really, there is no guessing if there is a virgin that emerged or not...if it is the virgin you want, not one from a "surprise" rogue cell...or one returned from mating that just got lost from her original hive.
> 
> Also, the larger the nuc, and the more bees you have in it...the likelier is for them to accept a cell, better than a virgin. I am using quite few 5 F deep nucs...I make them from early spring until late August...Those, as a routine, I re queen with cells, not with virgins. I've done it, it can be done, but it is different.
> So, I do not think that " those people...are forgetting to do something important"...it is just another way to do things...in beekeeping. Serves a different purpose...works in different circumstances.


What are the acceptance rate for virgins? Are they considerably different than with royal cells? That's what I meant when if asked if "those people...are forgetting to do something important", because they made it sound as if using virgins would result in such a poor acceptance rate that it was simply not worth it. The people I'm referring to didn't tell me "I like to use cells better because I find them easier to manage", they were basically telling me that using virgins would result in nothing less than disaster, or just about.

The resources I consulted really only treated with the use of royal cells, so this is all pretty new to me. You speak of rogue cells... do the virgins placed in the mating nucs kill these when you put them in? In the video, they put in the virgin first, and then the spoon of bees. Does it work as well when the mating nuc was already populated, after removing the previous mated queen?

And speaking of incubators, are there any particularly good ones? Which ones do you like to use? The ones I found looked a little on the expensive side, so I was considering poultry incubators (hatcher-types, the ones that don't move). How do you manage your hatched-unhatched cells, temperature-wise?


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## Velbert

When there a lot smaller than standered size i call all of them a Mini Nuc 

Here is a 1/2 Length Deep 4 frame MN


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## apis maximus

OK Dominic, lots of questions...I'll try to keep it as short as possible...

"*What are the acceptance rate for virgins? Are they considerably different than with royal cells? “
*

Well…again it depends on the application and/or circumstance one chooses to introduce a virgin. 
Like the Germans show in the video, if you introduce them to a small population of young bees, no brood of any kind, the acceptance rate can be 100%. 

In this case, there is no chance of a rogue cell developing, because it can’t. There are no eggs, no larvae from which the bees could make one. Remember, there is only bees, virgin and food. 

While you keep them closed in the dark, the new little unit will form a new “family” around their new, young virgin queen, that slowly hardens, is fed and accepted, and being prepared for the nuptial flight so to speak. The young bees are building new comb that would be ready by the time their queen returns from a successful mating.

Now, if you do the same thing except the bees used to make/populate these mini nuclei are older foragers, then your acceptance rate will drop to zero. 

Like I said previously, the larger the bee population in the nucleus, the presence of brood in different stages, strong forager population, the more difficult it becomes to introduce a virgin. If the bees have the resources to make their own queen, more than likely they will not accept a virgin. That is why, you see in the resources you describe the practice of introducing queen cells and not virgins. 
It is in this situation that one has to be aware that rogue cells can and do get started. But, these rogue cells, can and do get started in many cases even when you introduce a queen cell.

To your next question : “*do the virgins placed in the mating nucs kill these when you put them in?*” 

From what I have seen, on a direct release, if the virgin manages to stay alive and not get balled/killed by the older/resident bees, she is more concerned to get fed and get to fly out to mate. While she does that, in the background, the rogue cells are growing, closely guarded and nurtured by the resident bees…

So, the virgin we introduced, gets back, starts laying, and one day a new virgin from a rogue cell, emerges and kills the one you introduced. *Lauri* also mentions this type of situation in her postings.

That leads to your next question: ” *Does it work as well when the mating nuc was already populated, after removing the previous mated queen?*”

Not as well, but one can do some things to tilt the balance and increase the odds of the virgin being accepted. Since by now you appear familiar with the German videos, we’ll talk about those two types of nuclei featured in them. Single frame glass sides and the Styrofoam 3 frame one.

The single frame, glass side baby nuclei are normally just made with fresh bees and a new virgin every time. But, they can be used to just take the freshly mated queen out and introduce a new virgin. I tried it by direct release…works about 50%, so I will only do fresh start with them. 

On the 3 frame Styrofoam ones, like *Velbert* shows in his pictures, or the 2 framers like you have talked about ( Mini Bivo) I take the mated queen out; give them 2-3 hours to be without a queen. Come back, shake all the bees off the frames in front of the nuc, place a caged virgin in the nuc and fill their feeder if necessary. I use the JZBZ plastic cage to keep the queen confined. 
Three days later, take out any rogue cells I find, I take the virgin from the cage, dip her in some honey and release her back in the nucleus. Turn the entrance ring to Q excluder and again, in 2-3 days I check for rogue cells and take them out if present. If I see the marked virgin, which I do all the time, I open the entrance to full flight and let them be. Ten days later I check for eggs.

Now, with larger nucs, like a 5 f deep, I will move the nuc to a different location first, so that I lose the majority of foragers. Same as above, 2-3 hour w/o queen, then, place caged virgin in, queen exlcuder at the entrance. Same as above from there.
Acceptance rates in my case? Just based on the 2-3 days that the hive stays with a QE at the entrance, and me seeing the marked virgin acting royally among her new family, I see 100% acceptance rate. 

Now, successful mating returns, 75%-85%. But that is different from acceptance.

On the incubators…I have one similar like the one in the link…I did not buy it for this particular endeavor, but I love it. 

http://www.coleparmer.com/Product/T...dard_refrigerated_incubator_115_V/EW-39350-00

Extremely stable, and the swing in temps if adjustment is needed, is very smooth and independent of the ambient temperature. No swings too high or too low…also, there is a fan circulating the air. I do add some trays with water.
But I also have a small refrigerator I converted, by simply adding 2 X 40W bulbs as heating source, tray of water, flat brick for heat sink, no circulating fan as of right now, and a controller/thermostat Ranco type:

http://www.amazon.com/Ranco-ETC-111...84060777&sr=1-2&keywords=ranco+etc+111000-000

It works great also, had no issues whatsoever. Not as smooth if you try to lower or raise the temps…but once it reaches the desired temperature stays very consistent.

There is a good thread about incubators on this forum. I’m sure you’ll find some good ideas on it. 

Most of the times, I place the queen cells in the incubator as soon as they are capped. That would be day 5 post grafting…sometimes day 10.
In my case, I set the temp for 93F (34 C) until the queens emerge. They emerge in 3 hole queen cages, hair roller type cage or even California mini cages. I play with different things…Each has some queen candy available or some honey. As soon as they emerge, I take their cell out so that they do not get back into them and die.
Then, if I have to keep them a few more days in the incubator - I have not, more than 4 days- I drop the temp to 78-82 F ( 26-28C). They seem livelier and more alert that way. To me at least.

Hope this was not too long...


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## Lauri

Thanks for taking the time to write all that, Apis.
I am often asked about my methods by people who just are not having the same results that I am, like direct release of Virgins. Here is a little something I recently wrote on another thread:

I'll tell you a little story. I had a mare I raised that would respond to my every 'thought' it seemed. She would move around me in a circle, at a walk, trot, canter, gallop, slide to a stop and reverse with the wave of my hand and small verbal cue. When I let others handle her, I was shocked no one could make her do anything close to what was easy for me.

I was evidently doing things I didn't even realize. She picked up on my body language and responded. So when I tell you what I do with my bees, its pretty likely I do things I don't realize I am doing that have an impact on my results. You just should take what I have to say with a grain do salt and figure it out for your self, what works best for you.

This is the incubator I use. Not perfect but works well. An affordable step above a cheap Styrofoam chicken Little Giant incubators. Although those work just fine. The circ fan shuts off when the element turns off. So it is constantly coming on and off. Which explains the 2-3 degree temp difference between the top and bottom shelves. I run the top shelf at 92 -93 degrees and try to place most of the cells there to hatch out, place hatched virgins on the bottom shelf where it is slightly cooler, to harden off and hold until placement. I've hatched cells on all shelves with no problems, but do tend to use the top shelf where my temp is controlled the best.

http://www.amazon.com/Hagen-PT2499-...215&sr=8-1-fkmr2&keywords=eco+terra+incubator

I bought mine off E-bay a little cheaper. It has fairly poor reviews on Amazon thoguh. I used mine all summer, almost 24/7 and it was just fine. I have a thermometer sitting right on the shelf I use to double check the temps. Unit has been within 1 degree of my own readings.

I also purchased a cabalas food dehydrator to convert to an incubator, just never got the time to mess with it. It has the quality exterior I am looking for, the size, digital control heating unit that is very accurate. I just need to bypass the circ fan and replace with a much smaller one. The dehydrator fan is like a jet engine. It might work OK with a lot of water to keep up humidity, but would be better altered.

These dehydrators generally come on sale around Christmas time. I see them regularly in the bargan basement if you have a local store:

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Home...s/104294880.uts&WTz_l=DirectLoad;cat104294880


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## Tiny Barn Farm

I had very good luck with one of the Styrofoam little giants this year. I did however add a fan to circulate the air($10 12v computer fan from Radio Shack and an old cell phone adapter). Placement does make a big difference, I learned that incubating chicken and turkey eggs!


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## KevinR

I was thinking about hatching some this year and culling based on size/color.... If RayMarler is reading... I will have my orange and black halloween queens! *grins*



Dominic said:


> My understanding is that he's evaluating pre-mating quality, which, for most people, is size. Those who put in royal cells usually cull the smallest ones, so I guess it's logical for those who put in virgin queens to cull in the smallest ones too.


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