# Photos of my partial sheet of foundation in deep frames -experiment



## popeye

Thanks for sharing with us. Cool.


----------



## Lauri

Don't forget to make a frame holder/display case for your work!
Someone recently posted a photo of case like this on Beesource, that was made totally out of plexiglass. I got into beekeeping because I like wood working, so this was right up my alley. I'll be making some of these for Christmas gifts this year. It was a nice change from sweating in my bee jacket in 90+ degree sun all day.

Still a prototype and not yet finished..but you get the idea.


----------



## WBVC

Do you always alternate with full sheets before the partials are fully drawn? As you acquire more fully drawn partial sheets are you culling out the full foundation frames.


----------



## Lauri

Right now I end up using 2:1 partials to solid frames. You can tuck in a partial anywhere you have a spot when other frames are drawn.
The solid and partial alternation is for a new box with new frames. They'll move up from the bottom center and draw out the foundation first.




























Here you can see a partial on the left.










Something else I notice. When I have solid and partial frames next to each other, I get a 'mirror image' from the partial on to the solid frame. Which means, I see a similar feed storage pattern & similar brood pattern on both frames. What is different about that is, there is a _larger _proportion of feed on the solid frame than I usually see.










I also see the foundationless portion farthest from the entrances drawn and filled at different times than the front portion. Front is drawn first and will generally be filled with drone brood. Back portion will be drawn later and filled with feed. Eventually they are both filled with honey. I don't have a photo of that, but you can see in this photo they drew out the foundationless area differently. Front side is large cell with drone brood. Back side is worker sized cell with brood and feed.










I run both upper and lower entrances.


----------



## Snookie

GROOVY>>>Thanks for sharing :}


----------



## scorpionmain

I am going to make a bunch of these come winter.
Makes to much sense not to.
Beautifully arranged order.


----------



## MJuric

Why do it this way rather then a starter strip across the top? What advantage are you seeing? 

The first year I did bees I did, starter strips, full sheets and combinations of the two. I basically found that a full sheet ended up as a barrier if it was used in a hive with starter strips and in many cases they simply ate holes thru it. I found no significant difference in burr comb, messed up draws etc etc between any of them. 

From then on I ran 100% starter strips. 

~Matt


----------



## Hogback Honey

Wow, you are full of great ideas! Thanks for sharing, gives me a lot of food for thought.


----------



## Harley Craig

Does anybody make those sheets in small cell ?


----------



## crofter

Not unless you buy the Mann Lake PF 100 series plastic frame and lose the frame part with a saw!


----------



## Jackam

Amazing!


----------



## Intheswamp

Very nice, Lauri. I've used wax foundation since I started four years ago, but this might tempt me to order some Ritecell to experiement with!

Thanks,
Ed


----------



## shannonswyatt

Matt, pretty sure that the advantage with this method is that each frame will have worker comb in the center of each frame. With a starter strip they will pull worker at the top, but they will probably fill that will honey in a growing hive. What is below that starter could be worker but it could also be drone or honey stores. Having frames that you know all have a portion of worker comb makes a lot of sense if you are making and selling bees. Drone comb and honey storage comb doesn't help you much when making bees (I assume). Plus she can easily cull the drone comb to reduce varroa without having to worry about the whole thing coming apart. Having that plastic foundation in there makes the setup very sturdy, since you don't have to worry about them securing the comb on the sides of the frame like you do with foundationless with starter strips.


----------



## odfrank

I don't see any advantage or savings in doing this. Time is money, unless of course it is your own free time. Any foundation savings cost is lost in all that special work cutting up foundation and making and mounting special comb guides on the side. I sure don't want 50% plus drone comb in my brood chambers. And comb honey made in a brood chamber? Travel stain? And the time spent to sort through the brood chambers and cut out the comb honey and drone comb? And the disturbance to the brood chamber and queen doing all that chopping up of the brood chamber? The waste of the queens energy laying all that drone comb and then chopping it out? And doing what with it? Feeding it to chickens? That is some time consuming chicken feed. 
I will continue to use full sheets of wax worker foundation throughout my hives, limit the amount of drone comb in my brood chambers and raise my comb honey up in the honey supers.


----------



## WBVC

Speaking of how/where bees draw comb...I find in my hives outside is drawn last and on south facing hives west is drawn before east. Worker brood is a "ball" in the center, then nectar and pollen then capped honey up in the corners. Drone brood is usually taked on at top and bottom of the frame. In the spring some frames have more drone than worker brood but that seems to change as the season progresses.
Having said that my oldest hives are only in their second year


----------



## crofter

Lauri;

Those frames sure do have eye appeal and set the mind on a trip with endless possibilities! I know you will probably not sell the idea to commercial folks where standardization is king. Hired help might not deal well with more decisions. It sure seems like a low budget way to have some fun in their hives for someone who is in it mainly for the fun factor.

Keep us posted here on the forum since many of us do not do the Facebook thing!


----------



## shannonswyatt

odfrank, I'm not sure I follow you on the extra time. Wouldn't you just rip them on a chop saw? Seems like you could do the cutting very quickly. I would probably use a piece of coraplast for the starter strip, but that is just because I have that crap coming out of the gills. I rip that stuff on the table saw. Use a nailer to put the thing together. I guess having three pieces to go into a frame takes longer than a single piece, but not considerably. Or am I missing something else on the time versus money side of this?


----------



## doug reed

Lauri
Great photos! Thank you for sharing. I admire your skill with wood, and can tell you are having a good time at this endeavour. We all will benefit from your efforts.


----------



## Lauri

Thanks everyone. The facebook page just works better for me. No negative comments, just friendly debate and discussion. I post a lot about queen rearing there. Nutrition, methods, results. 

Heres a couple virgins just hatched out of the incubator today. 




























But these frames have been so successful for me, I thought I'd share some of the info for those interested.


----------



## Barry

Oh Lauri, Old Frank is grumpy to everyone, not just you! Just smile


----------



## Lauri

Don't worry Barry, I'm still smiling


----------



## odfrank

What does it have to do with grumpiness or negativity? My comments indicated that it does not seem to be a highly beneficial methodology to me. If some one posts multiple pictures of their new technique, what good does it do them if everybody just gushes positive complements? A contrary opinion is the only way you might gain some insight into what someone else sees is wrong with your new method. 

To say, "oh he is grumpy", or "he is negative", is what I call transference. You transfer any responsibility from yourself, to that "grumpy" or "negative" "bad guy". "I'm the good guy", "he is the bad guy", because he didn't agree with me. 
Sure, hide away in facebook, where everybody posts pictures of every dish they had for dinner each night. And their "friends" say, "oh that looks delicious"!!!! It might look delicious but for all we know it tasted like crap!


----------



## Lauri

You're right Odfrank, These are horrible. I'll have to just eat them all myself.:lookout:


----------



## shannonswyatt

I'm not sure if frank is grumpy or not, but I just don't see how his point that time is money so this is a bad idea is valid without laying out the actually costs of both methods, one using full sheets of foundation and then the other using partial sheets and any additional time required by someone to assemble the frame with the partial foundation and sticks (I would use coroplast, but that doesn't matter). Without that actual cost savings and then the additional labor costs it is a gratuitous assertion. 

I'm not sure that it would take me that much longer to assemble a frame the Lauri method versus a full frame of foundation. I have in my mind that if I was using a nailer it would take more then a few seconds more than with a full sheet, but maybe I'm missing the complexity of this method.


----------



## Mbeck

Lauri post lots of good content, with excellent explanations and photos, I enjoy her contribution.

That said odfrank brings up points that make sense to me.

My perspective is it's added ongoing complexity and work.

Perhaps Od's comments could lead to a conversation about beekeeping techniques !


----------



## Wolfer

Lauri, you are a class act!
My theory on why this works so well is it because it's what the bees want. I just have a few hives and am just a hobbiest. I'm pretty much foundationless and most of my frames look an awfull lot like yours. Worker cells up the middle and drone on the outside.
Yours will have a lot more stability than mine though. Since I lined my homemade extractor with chicken wire I can extract a white comb frame that's only attached at the top.

Love your pictures and your posts.

Ps, I'm sure your aware elk season will be here before you know it!


----------



## zhiv9

I appreciate Lauri sharing the results of her experiment. My own trials of foundationless resulted in far more drone size comb than I wanted and I can see the value in having a worker sized center. I can also see odfranks point. Time is money, and as a sideliner who works another full time job I am often having to make compromises or pay a little more to save time. I love wooden frames, but struggle to find the time to assemble them, so I find myself using a lot of plastic. I just can't see finding the time for this either.


----------



## David LaFerney

I think it's cool. Am i going to do it the same way, and for the same reasons that Laurie is? Probably not. It's still a great demonstration, and i appreciate you going to the considerable effort to share it. it does get some gears turning. I might try a super with half sheets to create some chunk honey - people constantly ask for it.

No negativity here - keep up the good work.


----------



## robinh

Lauri , love your passion with bees .Thats what it's all about.Reminds me of the first hive I saw when i was around 7 or 8.I have been amazed and full of interest about bees ever since.Thanks for sharing with everyone and whether one agrees or not on your techniques it is still very interesting .


----------



## Ryan Williamson

Thanks Lauri for the follow up post. I gave it a try this spring with just ten frames using 1/2 a sheet of pierco in deep frames. I use a starter strip when I run foundationless but I was in a time crunch so I left the strips out with the half sheet of foundation and it worked great. I will do more next year as I have had a strange problem with my 100% foundationless frames ending up with drone comb in the center and worker comb on the outer edges which is really frustrating. 
The question I have is about how you got away with no swarms with 200 hives. Do you feel that this foundation technique was the main reason or other management methods?


----------



## Lauri

Ryan Williamson said:


> -
> The question I have is about how you got away with no swarms with 200 hives. Do you feel that this foundation technique was the main reason or other management methods?


I do feel the new frames were a big part of that. But my management, local circumstances and genetics here is also a big factor. 

I didn't have any swarms last year ether. Over 100 hives then. I _Thought_ I didn't have any swarms, and it was confirmed this spring when I discovered one 2012 marked queen after another in the big hives. There is no mistaking that. All my queens are marked so I know exactly the age & lineage of the queen. 

These frames helped to avoid backfilling in brood cells. Anything that helps avoid the swarming impulse is a benefit. And although I have a lot of smaller & medium sized colonies, I have a lot 3-6 deeps or larger that were a little heavier going into the flow than I wanted. 
My main flow is over now. Inspections look great. They are well suited to go into our late summer dearth. It hasn't rained here for ages and everything is burning up.

Still, my swarm traps sit empty in my yard.

Instead of this:










I get this, where they are only backfilling the drone cells. With a fair amount of large cells available, they always choose them first when backfilling: 










If the partial frames have space for 1/3 to 1/2 large cell, but the frames are alternated with solid sheets, that gives you around 20% drone comb/fall feed storage possible in the brood area. Excellent for good early queen rearing and then-overwintering successfully.


----------



## scorpionmain

It might take a bit more effort to set frames up like this, but I like how it looks like a perfect broodsnest.
Worker in the center with stores on the outside & tops.
Doable for a hobbyist like me, maybe not so effiecent for a commercial guy.
I imagine they would over winter well with stores easily accessible.
Do what you want, but I like it and am going to try the same.


----------



## cryptobrian

I've done a variety of similar frames, with partial plastic or wax foundation, and of course frames with no foundation at all. I don't bother with a starter strip. They'll align things pretty well as long as you have full drawn frames on either side as you described and particularly if you have the partial foundation in there. I'll bet you can do away with the skewers.


----------



## Lauri

Assembly for partials is only seconds longer than full sheets.
I cut all my foundation already anyway.

Full sheets get the two bottom corners cut out for better interior access. Other sheets get cut in 1/3-1/2 or 2/3 sizes. When I open a case of rite cell, the entire case gets cut and stacked on a shelf in front of my assembly area. I Cut about ten at a time on the compound miter saw. A case takes about 5 minutes to cut. (This is an older photo when I use to cut out 4 corners. Now I just do the two bottom's.) Just hold the foundation tight against the fence and go slow. The blade wants to grab the plastic if you don't do it correctly.











I cut the skewers with my side cutters. They cut quickly & easily.










What takes more time than full sheets, is the partials need to sit upside down until the glue sets. Of course I am not standing there watching the glue dry. So the dry time is a really moot point. In summer that set time is about 15 minutes. In the dead of winter when I make most of my equipment I just let them sit overnight. My 12" long benches for hives worked good for holding these frames until they dried.










I have the patience to give my prep work & assembly more time. It usually yields a better product/better result, no matter what you are doing. I want to do things once and have them last. I want to do _better_ than average. It's a curse really. I KNOW I can do better, and always strive to do so. It can generate a lot of work for me, but the results are worth it. Being a bit inventive keeps the work fun. 

I actually like making frames. I appreciate the fact I don't have to fabricate _all_ the parts from scratch. A few seconds to customize them is nothing but a small easy investment in my finished product.

It takes a fair amount of time to fabricate the half sized deep frames for my mating nucs too. Top bars with a starter strip woudl be far easier and much faster to build. But a half sized deep frame with side bars and bottom is just a better and more stable product. Well worth it in the end when they are in use. Well worth the extra time and effort to build them. This is where I use that other 1/3 I cut off the sheet.










The results I got going totally foundationless in deep frames were simply not acceptable. Messy, unstable, too many drone cells, irregular. I loved full sheets of Rite cell, but besides the cost, it just makes sense to try to somewhat mimic the colonies natural tenancies for comb building. I figured these frames would be a compromise between the bees and me. Fortunately, it appears it is just what they want and exactly what I want. I'm almost stunned by how good they turned out and how well the hives are doing. And I did it on a large enough scale to know it is not just a fluke.

Because my main focus is queen rearing here, healthy, productive colonies that over winter well are my main concern. Honey production isn't my priority, but as a result of my prep work and attention to detail, I do get a dang lot of honey.


----------



## MJuric

*Thanks everyone. The facebook page just works better for me. No negative comments, just friendly debate and discussion.*

Hopefully you did not take my comment as being negative, I'm genuinely interested in what the advantages are over simply using a starter strip. As I stated before I did some experimentation with several combo's, none like what you've done, and did not find much difference or advantage either way. 

I went with the starter strip for cost and I found it easier to tell when they had drawn everything out without having to dig very far into the hive. 

~Matt


----------



## Lauri

Heres a couple more photos. First one is an older partial. Foundationless areas are a bit fat at times. They are not all lumpy like this, but some are if you've given them the room to do it..



















Here is how they work them when you put on a full box of new frames. They draw from the bottom center up and then out.










As far as stability for inspections, it is stable very quickly. Holding fully foundationless frames plumb for inspections make my back painfully tight in a hurry. With these you treat them as regular frames and hold them any way you want for the most part. The foundationless comb is not so big they want to fall out or bend when it is being built. As you see in this photo, It attaches fast to three sides. Oddly, they draw it out from the sides of the foundation most of the time, not the starter strip. Yes, you might be able to get away with out the skewers, but I don't mind putting them in. If you left out the skewers I'd put a drop of glue on the foundation to keep it centered until it is worked by the bees.


----------



## Lauri

When I have time , I'll post some info on my bottom board experiment. Solid VS screened. 
I'll just say now, this is what I came up with for the best bottom for my climate. Controlable ventilation without being too drafty. Good wintertime drainage. Some may say it doesn't matter. But after a few years of overwintering and noting colony build up and honey weight, I found the differences to be significant.


----------



## Lauri

MJuric said:


> *Thanks everyone. The facebook page just works better for me.
> 
> Hopefully you did not take my comment as being negative, I'm genuinely interested in what the advantages are over simply using a starter strip.
> 
> ~Matt*


*
Your comments were not at all negative. I was just speaking of the occasional nature of public forms in general. I don't care to have to defend what I have done. I'm just sharing what I did so folks can get their own ideas.*


----------



## Mbeck

Lauri said:


> I'm just sharing what I did so folks can get their own ideas.


....Thank You, I try not to pretend that any of my ideas are original.


----------



## Lauri

Yup, I can't be the first person to do this. I've not seen it done anywhere, but it's pretty basic. I just wish I'd done it a long time ago. The deep frames are far more challenging than mediums or shallow when doing any form of foundationless. I've tried several methods and this one is by far the best. 
I've got no time or use for frames like this:










This is the quality of comb I get whe trying to go totally foundationless. Ugly-right up to the time it fractures-even with wires. Unreliable. No consistency. 

Here are some of my other attempts:
Even in a strong mating nuc they don't reliably make good comb with a generious starter strip










Same frame after I hacked out the ugly. I found anything larger than wire encourages large cell building




























Actually, any _horizontal_ break or change seems to encourage drone comb










This a beautiful..right up until the time if falls out of your frame.










Even though this was attached top and bottom, it still fractures easily.











This was the inspiration for this design. A cut out installed in the center of a frame










drawn out and worked










I've fooled around with several designs. Who would think they would draw out the foundation before foundationless? 










This on inspired my cell builder frames for times during the flow they want to built comb all over my queen cells:










It helps me avoid this:










Heres a frame of new grafts goin in the starter with a light draw on the foundation from the last batch. I get no comb on my cells with these frames.



















Type depends on placement within the hive and flow rate.


----------



## Intheswamp

More good food for thought, Lauri.

Thanks!
Ed


----------



## Daniel Y

odfrank said:


> I don't see any advantage or savings in doing this. Time is money, unless of course it is your own free time. Any foundation savings cost is lost in all that special work cutting up foundation and making and mounting special comb guides on the side.


What time difference are you seeing? If you have 100 frames and 100 sheets of foundation. It will take exactly the same amount of time to place foundation in those frames regardless of weather they are full sheets or half sheets. As for the gluing of the sticks. you have the cost of the sticks and the cost of the glue. my grandchildren can do the work. There is another factor. placing half sheets and gluing sticks actually for me is faster than placing full sheets of foundation. This year I went all sticks and no foundation at all. 100% savings of foundation and far faster than fitting foundation.

Time and cost of cutting and placing the sticks. I cut them 100 at a time it takes less than a second. putting them in the frames is easier and faster than foundation.

Then you have to consider that what you want takes what it takes to get. you want it easy. some want it better. They are seldom the same thing.



odfrank said:


> I sure don't want 50% plus drone comb in my brood chambers.


Why not. have you ever paid attention to what bees do with "Drone" comb. I have and I wonder how it ever got it's name. for the majority of the year I find it full of honey. The only time I find it full of drones is prior to swarming. Removal of drone brood for varroa control is pretty common. It requires work.



odfrank said:


> And comb honey made in a brood chamber? Travel stain?


 Read it again, The comb honey is produced in the honey supers.




odfrank said:


> And the time spent to sort through the brood chambers and cut out the comb honey and drone comb? And the disturbance to the brood chamber and queen doing all that chopping up of the brood chamber? The waste of the queens energy laying all that drone comb and then chopping it out? And doing what with it? Feeding it to chickens? That is some time consuming chicken feed.


I inspect my frame anyway. no big deal. But yeah I have issues with all that time energy and resources being wasted on making comb at all. Any idea on how to get my bees to just deposit the honey directly into jars?




odfrank said:


> I will continue to use full sheets of wax worker foundation throughout my hives, limit the amount of drone comb in my brood chambers and raise my comb honey up in the honey supers.


Sound a lot like what beekeepers have been doing for decades. and I consider the major contributing factors to the problems with bees. Some are seeking better ways.


----------



## Daniel Y

odfrank said:


> What does it have to do with grumpiness or negativity? My comments indicated that it does not seem to be a highly beneficial methodology to me. If some one posts multiple pictures of their new technique, what good does it do them if everybody just gushes positive complements? A contrary opinion is the only way you might gain some insight into what someone else sees is wrong with your new method.
> 
> To say, "oh he is grumpy", or "he is negative", is what I call transference. You transfer any responsibility from yourself, to that "grumpy" or "negative" "bad guy". "I'm the good guy", "he is the bad guy", because he didn't agree with me.
> Sure, hide away in facebook, where everybody posts pictures of every dish they had for dinner each night. And their "friends" say, "oh that looks delicious"!!!! It might look delicious but for all we know it tasted like crap!


I don't tend to listen to opinions of those that have never tried it. Simple as that. Opinions without experience is called antagonism. I don't consider you comments to be constructive. I consider them antagonistic. and that is what is wrong with them. They come across as rude and inflammatory. they are obviously intended to. So I don't buy that you are simply offering a different point of view. You go out of your way to be insulting.


----------



## Bob J

Really appreciate you sharing all your work and observations Lauri...... Great stuff! :thumbsup:


----------



## Saltybee

Ryan Williamson said:


> The question I have is about how you got away with no swarms with 200 hives. Do you feel that this foundation technique was the main reason or other management methods?


That is a area of interest to me as well. When I look at Lauri's photos my first thought is "where are all the swarm cells". Baffled if it is genes or readily available and enticing space. Maybe Lauri just keeps the hives forever young by constant expansion.

I like the plastic foundation for expansion. Starting comb in the middle of a sheet facing a brood comb strikes my idea of efficiency. Having brood in a circle of comb that does not yet touch the top, bottom, or sides of the frame just makes me chuckle somehow.


----------



## Jackam

50 years from now, this could be standard practice for bee keepers.
Wouldn't THAT be something!?!


----------



## Bob J

Saltybee said:


> That is a area of interest to me as well. When I look at Lauri's photos my first thought is "where are all the swarm cells". Baffled if it is genes or readily available and enticing space. Maybe Lauri just keeps the hives forever young by constant expansion.
> 
> I like the plastic foundation for expansion. Starting comb in the middle of a sheet facing a brood comb strikes my idea of efficiency. Having brood in a circle of comb that does not yet touch the top, bottom, or sides of the frame just makes me chuckle somehow.


I like plastic foundation (PF100 series plastic frames) as well.... Have traditionally mixed them with foundationless but based on Lauri's excellent work am strongly thinking about cutting out the side thirds of my frames leaving a small strip at the top and bottom.... Seems that it offers the best of both worlds.....


----------



## Adam Foster Collins

Very interesting Lauri. I may have missed it in this thread, but what is the smallest amount of centrally/vertically placed foundation that you have tried? 1/3? Have you tried less than that? 1/4?

I'm just wondering what the smallest amount would be that would work. I've used strips as small as 1/4, but that was horizontal.

Adam


----------



## Cloverdale

"Just hold the foundation tight against the fence and go slow. The blade wants to grab the plastic if you don't do it correctly."

Hi Lauri, great ideas....my husband has a tip for cutting the plastic foundation, put the blade in backwards, still hold tight but the difference is that it actually "melts" the plastic, cleaner cut. And don't forget to turn blade back around when finished. This works well for cutting vinyl siding. Hope it works with foundation.


----------



## shannonswyatt

What about using a chop saw?


----------



## gfbees13

I think I will try to do this. Thanks for sharing! I am going to try to cut the frames with my bandsaw.


----------



## missybee

I used my 12 inch chop saw, new 100 tooth blade, went through it like butter. I did run a piece of masking tape around the bundle, the cheap painting stuff.


----------



## Matt F

Lauri, I like all the ways you've tried to configure the frames with photo results...thank you!

Have you ever tried plastic foundation around the outside but not in the middle? I'm starting to buy into the small cell / foundationless approach, and thinking that cutting out the vast majority of the center section of a sheet would provide larger cells around the outside and foundationless in the middle. Stronger frame attachment as well, but obviously VERY time consuming to cut each foundation...but I only have one hive.


----------



## shannonswyatt

Cutting out the center would be the same as cutting the foundation any other way, just figure the width that you would want for for the foundation sections and then use a chop saw to cut to length. Then put the cut pieces on the edges of the frame.


----------



## Matt F

shannonswyatt said:


> Cutting out the center would be the same as cutting the foundation any other way, just figure the width that you would want for for the foundation sections and then use a chop saw to cut to length. Then put the cut pieces on the edges of the frame.


That's not exactly my idea, I want the vertical and horizontal pieces of foundation to be connected to one another to provide strength. A chop saw wouldn't achieve that result, but a jig saw would, if the edges didn't end up too rough. 

In reality I don't think I'll try anything like this for several years.


----------



## StarVerl

Hi StarVerl here, my experience with Honey Bee is really depend on the characteristics of the bees your are working with. I have used empty frames alot. When I am out of wax foundations I would use empty standard frame. I have gotten results. As long as there is nuctar flow or preflow, you can place an empty frame in the broodnest near to the end. That is, between 2 drawnout frame with worker cells.


----------



## grozzie2

Matt F said:


> Have you ever tried plastic foundation around the outside but not in the middle?


You mean like this:-



Which quicly turns into this:-



And if you look carefully, the gap is full of drone sized comb, and this hive already had lots of drone comb, two over from this frame was one of the green drone frames chock full of drone brood.

This fall I completely forgot to go digging and find that frame for the 'finished' picture. I'll get it this spring, I know which colony it's in.


----------



## shannonswyatt

Matt F said:


> That's not exactly my idea, I want the vertical and horizontal pieces of foundation to be connected to one another to provide strength. A chop saw wouldn't achieve that result, but a jig saw would, if the edges didn't end up too rough.
> 
> In reality I don't think I'll try anything like this for several years.


Seems like a lot of work.


----------



## Matt F

grozzie2 said:


> You mean like this:


Basically, yes, how did it work out? I'm surprised they filled the open space with drone cells, that kinda defeats the purpose I think.


----------



## Matt F

shannonswyatt said:


> Seems like a lot of work.


for many hives, it would be. For 10 or 20 frames in one hive, meh.


----------



## grozzie2

Matt F said:


> Basically, yes, how did it work out? I'm surprised they filled the open space with drone cells, that kinda defeats the purpose I think.


The photo is intended to show how well it worked. But the coles notes version of the results:

a) No real difference in which side got built. If either side had an advantage, it was the side with foundation early on.
b) Took about 3 weeks to get the frame fully drawn
c) The half with plastic foundation was filled with cells equivalent to the foundation (4.9mm)
d) The half without foundation, was filled with much larger cells, drone size.

My own personal conclusion from the exercise was, a lot of extra effort to get a frame that's not safe in the extractor, and not built significantly faster or better. In future, if I want more drones, I'll just put in another green drone frame.


----------



## Matt F

grozzie2 said:


> The photo is intended to show how well it worked. But the coles notes version of the results:
> 
> a) No real difference in which side got built. If either side had an advantage, it was the side with foundation early on.
> b) Took about 3 weeks to get the frame fully drawn
> c) The half with plastic foundation was filled with cells equivalent to the foundation (4.9mm)
> d) The half without foundation, was filled with much larger cells, drone size.
> 
> My own personal conclusion from the exercise was, a lot of extra effort to get a frame that's not safe in the extractor, and not built significantly faster or better. In future, if I want more drones, I'll just put in another green drone frame.


Thanks! maybe it isn't such a good idea after all. For the labor investment there would need to be a pretty solid benefit.


----------



## quattro

This is my first year of beekeeping coming up, so please take this for what it is worth. I have not seen much of a labor difference so far. The 1/3 pieces snap into the frame without breaking off the top clamps and I get three brood boxes for the price of two.

That being said, can I use some of the thousands of craft Popsicle sticks that we have instead of the wooden dowels? Can I just use a hot glue gun? I have not started gluing these in yet, so I may change my tune about the time spent.


----------



## JWChesnut

I'm experimenting with the to the "save-a-penny" partial sheet method described by Lauri. As I posted to another thread, my modification is to cut trapezoids from the sheet. This yield 3 trapezoids (one made by piecing the two ends). Each Trapezoid has 8 1/4" top frame coverage, or more than half sheet. The shape approximate the "natural" draw pattern.

The cut marks are at 4 1/8", 6 7/8", 15 1/8". Pattern is identical top and bottom. (approximate, "by-eye" measure would yield roughly equivalent shapes). The match of the split piece is machine edge to machine edge.


----------



## Lauri

Yeah, this is the shape you would _like_ to get. Unfortunatly, cutting the foundation this way-semi circular is not cost effective and wouldn't be stable in the frame.


----------



## Lauri

Remember the rules of getting smaller worker sized cell's drawn in foundationless areas. Placement of the frame and age of the queen.

First and second pics were in a single deep with a _newly mated queen_. Even though they just have a 1/3 sheet of rite cell for good stability, the foundationless areas are mostly worker sized cells. A young queen's colony has no real interest in rearing drones.

If I had installed this frame into a colony with an overwintered queen, no matter where I placed it, but especially if it was above and to the sides of the brood nest, it would have been drawn with large cells.

You'll notice this frame has capped honey in the center. I cut out the honeycomb from the sides and gave the frame back to a young colony to redraw out the foundationless areas.
It's filled out a bit backwards with feed in the center, but _next spring_ it will be a highly usable quality frame for the brood nest



















Here's how it looked the first time around:



















And one after being capped, ready to harvest. Lightly used center, Just cut around it. Prime for giving back to a growing colony or for a lure to get them up into the next super:










A chunk of honeycomb that size was almost too big though. 
Here's the frame ready to go back into a colony.










 A couple more frames drawn by a young queen's colony


----------



## Matt F

very nice thanks for the pics! :thumbsup:


----------



## quattro

Thanks Lauri - Can I use Popsicle sticks instead of the wooden dowels that you use in the open areas and do you put them on the top and bottom?


----------



## Harley Craig

quattro said:


> Thanks Lauri - Can I use Popsicle sticks instead of the wooden dowels that you use in the open areas and do you put them on the top and bottom?


 I made up about 50 of them today to try this out and that is what I used top side only


----------



## Lauri

quattro said:


> Thanks Lauri - Can I use Popsicle sticks instead of the wooden dowels that you use in the open areas and do you put them on the top and bottom?


Sure, you could use anything. Some people like a wedge starter.
I use the wood skewers because they are fast to in stall, cheap and easy to cut to size with a quick snip of my side cutters. Many times, They are already the perfect size already with no trimming.


----------



## Lauri

Someone asked me if they could install package bees onto these frames. 
That is probably one of the best ways to get new 'custom' frames started.
That's exactly what I did when I wanted my mini frames drawn for mating nucs. I installed package bees directly onto them.










Last year, I was in the same position most of you are. 

After years of not being satisfied with my foundationless comb building and frame design, I came up with this partial foundation configuration. 
But no matter how good I think my idea is, even with experience behind me, I know better than to make equipment on a large scale without making sure it works exactly as I want.
(That's why I waited for months to show you these frames, so I could show you the_ actual _results)

Problem was last spring, I needed to make up several hundred frames well before the main flow. I needed some answers fast.

My resolution to that was, very early spring I installed a _simulated swarm _from a large hive directly onto these frames. The date was 3-3-14. 

I knew they would get drawn out immediately and I would have the reassurance I wanted before making up a bunch of partial frames. 
It worked perfectly.

Once again, when getting these frames drawn out, remember the rules:
Alternate full new sheets of foundation frames with the partial foundation frames. Keep them tight together until they have been started.

If they are in the brood nest area keep them tight together, if they are being used for honey production, once they get started, separate them a bit so you get_ fatter_ comb honey.

If you alternate partial foundation frames with frames that are already drawn, the bees may just fatten the currently drawn frame into the foundationless space of the next frame. 
Alternating with capped honey however is an excellent way to get these partial new frames drawn perfectly. 

Remember how the bees will expand within the hive. Center out (Bottom deep) Center up, then out (Second deep) 

Because the piece of foundation is always centered and straight, no matter where or how the bees start to draw out the frame, there is always something there to help guide them to the comb correctly to keep the frame tidy.

If you pay attention how these partial frames get drawn and filled you will learn more about the interior working of you colony and how the 'mood' can influence comb building.

Here are a few more photos:

Typical of how I would expect new frames to get started in the bottom deep










Typical of how I would expect new frames to get drawn in the second or third deep, above the brood nest. Move from the center of the bottom deep- upward










Foundation drawn first, then out and across










Here's how it looks when they draw the foundationless areas before the foundation. This is when the started strip is handy. Without a strip, they might start it straight, they might not. Better to be safe and have a strip in for a guide. It only takes seconds to install.










One more photo I ran across form a colony with a newly mated young queen. This is the kind of cell size I think we all are looking for.










It is very difficult to get an colony with an overwintered queen to build worker cells in foundationless areas. Especially in early spring when they are in drone mode. But that makes for good drone populations for mating and 'mite corralling' and the _many benefits_ a designated area for drone production can have.

So if your goals this year are to get the most new frames drawn with the smallest cells possible, install these frames in a smaller colony with a very young queen. Don't forget to occasionally feed light 1:1 during periods of dearth or they will stop building new comb. Don't overfeed or they may swarm. Moderation is good.

Here is one more photo. This frame had been used last year for brood rearing with drones in the foundationless areas on both sides. Then backfilled with feed. This frame can now be used in may ways in almost any area within the hive. Those two honeycomb chunks could be left in to feed the colony, cut out to let them build fresh comb or even be cut out and used to feed mini mating nucs.


----------



## Steve Copeland

Thank you for all of the great information Lauri and great pictures


----------



## marshmasterpat

Lauri said:


> So if your goals this year are to get the most new frames drawn with the smallest cells possible, install these frames in a smaller colony with a very young queen. Don't forget to occasionally feed light 1:1 during periods of dearth or they will stop building new comb. Don't overfeed or they may swarm. Moderation is good.
> 
> [/IMG]


Lauri - Many thanks for the information, sometimes there is just too much to absorb. 

So my question is what is moderation? Is that enough that the feed is removed in a single day, a few hours? Any guidance would be nice. Thanks


----------



## cwood6_10

marshmasterpat said:


> Lauri - Many thanks for the information, sometimes there is just too much to absorb.
> 
> So my question is what is moderation? Is that enough that the feed is removed in a single day, a few hours? Any guidance would be nice. Thanks


I would consider moderation in this case as to not feed everyday as much as they will take during a dearth. If they take a gallon every 2 days then maybe feed for a couple days a week I would say. This stinulates the queens, keeps them building but doesn't have them back filling and causing swarming. This will obviously be a case to case bases but hopefully that helps.


----------



## warmbees

Thanks Laurie for one of the most informational threads, I believe I've seen. 

As I read through this thread, and the asides that took place to this point... I've sort of started fostering a "horse in the room" type of observation, which is simply that in literally a forum available to the WORLD... One of the slightly less obvious things to many is that there are many objectives or separate functions within beekeeping, that some choose to specialize in, or choose for their profession. 

There is the wood worker that sees an opportunity to advance his art and business in a particular application of wood working. There is the beekeeper that sees honey production as the nervanna and most valuable interest, and therefore his choice as to the focus of his efforts and business ventures. There is still a 3rd type of area or beekeeper that sees the honey as a value, but that recognizes that start-ups are quite lucrative, and enjoys the more technical portion of the industry, we call queen making, and / or Nuc building, and sells nucs or queens at considerable profit. A forth sub-industry element are those that find the money to be in pollination and moved truck loads of hives all over the country(s) for rent. The horse in the room on this thread is that anyone, not understanding this diversity of the industry, will fail to see the real value of this information, to one area or interest of beekeeping to the other. Honey producers need lots and lots of bees - (i.e. large hives and colonies)... Queen producers, on the other hand, need many small hives or nucs for their production efforts. Pollinators need small hives to scatter out among the fields needing pollination... The care, and control, and management of these different sub-industry areas are drastically different from one to the next. What works for one, may not be the best for another.

The common fallacy here is that what is true for one must be true for all! I discovered this mindset problem while conversing on subjects of beehive warmers. I quickly learned that not only are there different interests across the spectrum of beekeeping, but there are different hive designs, with their associated methods, and even different cultural beliefs as well. Beyond the fact that opinions are like armpits, and the fact that everybody has one or two and its likely that one might stink a bit... projecting our personal beliefs in this realm, as absolute truths is directly playing into that fallacy!

Just like overwintering nucs, is a major issue for those making queens, where honey makers can't understand why one might want to overwinter nucs rather than full size hives... THIS METHOD OF PARTIAL FOUNDATION FRAME CONSTRUCTION has very good implications to some areas of the industry and maybe a bit less in others! I, however really like it, because unlike some of those commercial folks that really have things down to a science, find that as I dabble in many of these areas of beekeeping, the versatility that Laurie has demonstrated that this design offers in utilizing multiple sizes of foundation, and that it caters to bees having a lot more choice in their comb designs (the back to nature crowd), and the fact that instead of tossing a few foundation-less frames throughout my hives and having to keep track of them for drone control, is proving to be a bit of a pain for me... 

This method answers many of the challenges across the board! I can place a high number of these types of hybrid foundation(less) frames and simply decide, from inspection to inspection, weather to cut one out, or not, for varoa control, or simply because its beautiful and I want some of that... and I will get a lot more clean honey comb to cut out, that is not in ugly old brood comb, that will make my honey look and taste better, for that which I chose to remove for personal use! I'm literally ecstatic about adopting this method! I have started making some queens on the side, as a necessity, and even make a few bucks on the side, which caused me to make some custom mating nucs. This method plays beautifully into being able to move frames or sections back and forth between the full size frames or small mating nuc frames that I have.

Bravo Laurie, and keep up the awesome work, and the fact that you are willing to share all of this with pictures, is a serious contribution to the education and improvement of the "ART OF BEEKEEPING"!

To those who can't see any value to this... Simply understand that many of us do, and it doesn't have to be true for all, to be an excellent idea and method! Adopt what you will... That is the beauty of freedom. You are more than welcome to your own armpits - uh - I mean opinions, with their accompanying odoriferous undertones! There will always be some that get it and some that don't - trudge-on... Tally Ho... Ren


----------



## Lauri

Wow Warmbees, Thank you 

I previously posted the link for the wood skewers in bulk. But I don't see it on this thread so I thought I'd add it.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009EE89LU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Many other shapes and forms you can use for starter strips:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=bl_sr_industrial?ie=UTF8&field-brandtextbin=Perfect+Stix&node=16310091


----------



## quattro

I found 1000 of the Popsicle sticks for $2 (with my 50% off coupon) from AC Moore. I guess I am being a bit optimistic!


----------



## warmbees

By the way, I really liked to learn about your archery interests... I never pursued it to that level, but far enough to really appreciate the type of skill that you achieved. I have the credit of a dozen dear, but alas, the quest for Elk, is left wanting... But not for lack of some trying. 

Wrong thread, but the cudo is applicable in the recognition of what it takes to be great at anything, like beekeeping! It's kind of like one of those pieces of paper you get from Universities... To some it may not matter much, but to others it speaks volumes! Your dedication and perhaps, tiny bit of OCD, shows in these efforts, and lest anyone try to shine a negative light on such ailments, its kinda hard to argue with such results! Thank God for OCD, and similar (ailments?), if it weren't for them, we would probably never advance the given arts past status quo, of a few hundred years ago... Just 2 more cents! Ren -maybe 4 cents, but it doesn't matter.


----------



## BeeAttitudes

Is all plastic foundation created equal or is some accepted or work better than others?


----------



## gravytrain107

well said warmbees! I have noticed the same thing about every ones armpits,lol


----------



## ChrisBex

I wanted to see how the whole partial sheet of foundation works. So I plan on doing it this year with swarms. If I can ever get a call this year. Should yield some interesting results.

Doing half sheets of rite cell foundation.








Adding more wax to foundation.








Kudos goes to my wife for cleaning up my mess


----------



## Swampsquash

I just cut out a bunch of drone comb from the sides of some of mine today! It's great for keeping the mite populations down!


----------



## ChrisBex

ChrisBex said:


> I wanted to see how the whole partial sheet of foundation works. So I plan on doing it this year with swarms. If I can ever get a call this year. Should yield some interesting results.
> 
> Doing half sheets of rite cell foundation.
> View attachment 16329
> 
> 
> Adding more wax to foundation.
> View attachment 16331
> 
> 
> Kudos goes to my wife for cleaning up my mess



Adding wooden dowels.
















Got a call for a swarm today. Swarm was bigger than a basketball probably over 6 pounds of bees. Filled a NUC up with no frames in it, after I added frames had to put second NUC on top just so they wouldn't be pouring out the front.


----------



## Cloverdale

ChrisBex said:


> Adding wooden dowels.
> View attachment 16407
> 
> 
> View attachment 16408
> 
> 
> Got a call for a swarm today. Swarm was bigger than a basketball probably over 6 pounds of bees. Filled a NUC up with no frames in it, after I added frames had to put second NUC on top just so they wouldn't be pouring out the front.


Someday Spring will arrive here, -6 this AM; I too am going to try Lauris idea. Hope it works well for us. &#55357;&#56349;


----------



## VitaminBee

This is awesome work, Lauri! Thanks for the ideas!


----------



## Scpossum

I'm using this method this year with all new starts. Why are we putting the dowels in the bottom? To keep the comb straight in a line with the foundation?


----------



## ChrisBex

Scpossum said:


> I'm using this method this year with all new starts. Why are we putting the dowels in the bottom? To keep the comb straight in a line with the foundation?


I only put the dowels on the top, to keep the foundation from shifting around and I added some wax on the dowels to help draw straight comb.

Went into the swarm today and seen some pretty straight combs on the partial sheets.


----------



## Brad Bee

I tried several frames of the 1/3 sheet of Rite cell last summer. I guess my bees are unruly. They made an absolute mess from it. Very, very few of those frames have a "solid" comb from side to side. Most of them are split into 3 unique sections of comb, starting at the frame sides and stopping at the Rite Cell.


----------



## JackChing

Lauri said:


> I do feel the new frames were a big part of that. But my management, local circumstances and genetics here is also a big factor.
> 
> I didn't have any swarms last year ether. Over 100 hives then. I _Thought_ I didn't have any swarms, and it was confirmed this spring when I discovered one 2012 marked queen after another in the big hives. There is no mistaking that. All my queens are marked so I know exactly the age & lineage of the queen.
> 
> These frames helped to avoid backfilling in brood cells. Anything that helps avoid the swarming impulse is a benefit. And although I have a lot of smaller & medium sized colonies, I have a lot 3-6 deeps or larger that were a little heavier going into the flow than I wanted.
> My main flow is over now. Inspections look great. They are well suited to go into our late summer dearth. It hasn't rained here for ages and everything is burning up.
> 
> Still, my swarm traps sit empty in my yard.
> 
> Instead of this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I get this, where they are only backfilling the drone cells. With a fair amount of large cells available, they always choose them first when backfilling:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the partial frames have space for 1/3 to 1/2 large cell, but the frames are alternated with solid sheets, that gives you around 20% drone comb/fall feed storage possible in the brood area. Excellent for good early queen rearing and then-overwintering successfully.



How are you using the partial frames in the hive that helps stop swarming? Do you have 10 partial frames in each brood box or do you alternate them 50/50? Do you checkerboard with partial frames?


----------



## Westhill

Really fascinating! I am a new bee and have a lot to learn. I "liked" your fb page and am looking forward to learning more, thanks for sharing your innovations and ideas. I am using starter strips of foundation now, and am going to try your method of having the partial piece down the middle instead of across the top of the frame. Thanks!


----------



## blamb61

So you get larger cells where the strip is and small where it isn't (except drone cells)? I tried a horizontal lange I built with 33 deep frames foundationless. They did a great job with the comb but I learned the hard way not to mess with comb when cold. I don't like completely foundationless because too fragile. I may try your idea with next hive. Will 1/2 strip frames hold up in an extractor?


----------



## Acebird

Yes, you will get what the bees want at the time. I believe Lauri was putting some of these frames in the brood nest when they were hell bent on expansion. That will give you worker brood. If you put them in the supers like I did they will draw bigger cells for honey storage. If they are placed on the outside of the brood nest you might get drone cells.  One advantage is if they were placed in the supers they could tear these cells down next year and use them for brood because that part of the comb is foundationless.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Acebird said:


> One advantage is if they were placed in the supers they could tear these cells down next year and use them for brood because that part of the comb is foundationless.


:scratch: Bees tear down large areas of the existing cells on a frame and rebuild them? :s Under what circumstances does this happen?


----------



## JakeDatc

Rader Sidetrack said:


> :scratch: Bees tear down large areas of the existing cells on a frame and rebuild them? :s Under what circumstances does this happen?


don't let facts get in the way of his story


----------



## Lauri

I was wondering how folks that tried this type of frame came out. I should have some time this weekend to answer questions and give more tips on useage if anyone needs more help.


----------



## biggraham610

Hey Lauri I asked you earlier if you had tried it with wax, you said you hadn't, well I did and had the same results. I didn't get a lot of it in, and have some in second boxes on late nucs now, but they are working it very nice. I will be pulling the last of my honey once they finish drying this last run of sumac, I have a few of those frames scattered amongst the foundationless, I will try and post a picture for you. Cool Idea. Thanks for sharing. G


----------



## Cloverdale

Hi Lauri, I tried a few frames in an undrawn super and interspersed some in a drawn super. I don't think I had the correct timing regarding a heavy flow. Our autumn flow should be starting soon so I hope that will encourage the wax. I also have a small super with undrawn wax foundation that I am hoping will be drawn for some cut comb; I am not sure if it should have been done in the Spring. Thank you for offering a follow-up.


----------



## devil dog

Laurie,
Thanks for sharing this idea. I tried it and love the way it worked out for me. The bees made sections of drone comb where they wanted it and I got some cut comb honey. A lot less bur comb below the frames. Some of the comb they had drawn out for drones got filled with honey instead. Interesting to see the large cells filled with honey. Not to mention I saved a little money on foundation.


----------



## SquirrellyOne

I tried this method in my new hives, mostly with success. I definitely recommend putting in the popsicle sticks. I just left most of my frames with the partial foundation and no guide on the side. The bees sometimes would center the comb on one side of the split in the frame. It ends up working out eventually, but they'd do better with a center guide.

Nicely built, though not fully connected at the bottoms. Still strong enough for inspections so far:









This frame had only about a 3" wide strip of foundation down the middle. Still building nicely.


----------



## Cloverdale

Squirrel, did you start these frames in the Spring?


----------



## Harley Craig

Lauri these worked wonderfully this yrs I forgot to get pics when I harvested because I was by myself hopefully I can get one more small fall harvest and I can remember to get pics then


----------



## Frank

Hi Lauri
Thanks for sharing the nice pictures and the results of your experiment ! 
It sounds pretty close to an experiment I planned to do but hav'nt started. May you pick up some ideas and try, I will next season if everything goes right.
I plan to cut one sheet of foundation in three prices, but instate of one pice in the middle of the frame, I would place two prices on the outside and leave the middle part open to draw out by the bees. 
The middle part should be stable enough to go through the honey extraction, if I ever use this frames in the honey super.
Main reason for partly foundation :
-save 1/3 of foundation
-stable enough for honey extraction
-centre of the frame is mostly used for hatching worker bees; with foundation for small cells on both sides they should fill out the gap in the middle with small cells too. I tried foundation less ( they built the entire frame with drone cells). So that didn't work very well. 
With foundation less in the middle of the frame and (I hope) small cells there, I could place this frames in the brood box, have the queen lay eggs in there (most time she starts around the centre anyway - is that right) and I could cut strips out of the centre for queen rearing like it is described in an other thread in queen and bee breeding .
I am not sure if you tried this little difference and how the outcome would be. 
Your observation , that an vertical line encourages them to build worker size cells lets me think positive about this. 
I know there are different ways to do things and always depending on the goal what I want to do.
I need a cheaper, stable frame from where I can take cells for queen rearing. I don't want to tackle grafting yet.
Any comments ?
Thanks


----------



## SeaCucumber

I don't yet see the benefit of doing what you did. I'm new, and I might be missing something.

All I can see are 2 benefits:
- some middle support for extracting
- support for when you want to move your hives (with partially drawn comb) to another food source

I would think that wired foundationless and/or foundation would work well.

I use mostly foundationless. All the new frames I gave the bees this year were unwired foundationless. I'm using all mediums. After seeing 6 colonies draw at least 30 foundationless frames, I've never seen a foundationless frame with imperfect comb. I have seen bad comb shapes on my foundation frames. Having not extracted yet, I recommend foundationless. The reasons people give for using foundation and wire apply to the boxes that might get partially drawn, extracted, or trucked around before being drawn.


----------



## Acebird

Frank said:


> -centre of the frame is mostly used for hatching worker bees; with foundation for small cells on both sides they should fill out the gap in the middle with small cells too. I tried foundation less ( they built the entire frame with drone cells). So that didn't work very well.
> With foundation less in the middle of the frame and (I hope) small cells there, I could place this frames in the brood box, have the queen lay eggs in there (most time she starts around the centre anyway - is that right) and I could cut strips out of the centre for queen rearing like it is described in an other thread in queen and bee breeding .
> I am not sure if you tried this little difference and how the outcome would be.


When Lauri first tried partial frames she was putting them in the brood nest to draw out so she got brood in them. When I did it I put them in the honey supers on a well developed hive during a flow. In this case they will make the cells large because it saves wax but they did not raise brood in them. I have since put these frames in developing hives and they may tear down the comb and re-size it or they may raise drones in it. If you leave your center open I would not suggest putting these frames in the supers to draw and then plan on using them in the brood nest. I would suggest putting them directly in the brood nest in the hopes they will draw worker cells.


----------



## Frank

Brian, thanks for your thoughts . 
I tried last year one or two frames foundation less . I put frames in between frames with already drawn straight comb in the brood box. I am not sure, but most likely outside of the brood cluster. They filled the frame with comb pretty quick and stored honey in. It looked pretty neat ! But just big cells. Out of curiosity I put this frame this year into a brood box of an hive. Of course it got filled out with eggs and I have now a whole bunch of drones flying around. But I look at the bright side : I still have a queen "in the oven". Actually two are due to hatch beginning of next week. I hope, everything goes good and I can overwinter as double nuc.
I sure will follow your advice and put a partly foundation less frame here and there into a brood box to get drawn out. For the beginning I just need a few for queen rearing. 
Thanks again !


----------



## Acebird

I think the key is a developing hive in the spring when the colony in not interested in raising drones. I am guessing though. Maybe it was dumb luck.


----------



## biggraham610

SeaCucumber said:


> I've never seen a foundationless frame with imperfect comb.


Hang around, you will.


----------



## SquirrellyOne

Cloverdale said:


> Squirrel, did you start these frames in the Spring?


Yep, on packages. They picture with 3 separate comb areas was earlier this year, the full frame is what most everything looks like now, besides a couple problem frames they drew off center and I had to mess around with.


----------



## Cloverdale

I tried a few frames in supers. They drew out the middle piece which was plastc and only one side with drone cells. The other side is empty.


----------



## Lauri

I thought I'd show you how the frames with a _filled_ half sheet of foundation are utilized when placed back in hives.

Here is a small swarm collected this summer . I believe I gave them a center frame of empty drawn comb, 2 frames of center only capped honey and 2 new frames. They also were fed syrup.

6-19-16



























6-21-16









6-23-16


















6-27-16

Remember, these cells were _filled with capped honey_ just a couple days ago. They quickly consumed it, drew wax & started brood rearing.( with some syrup too)


















6-29-16




















I generally harvest my honey comb in fall and hold these residual frames overwinter to use in spring to make up nucs. They _really_ work well, especially in May when I am between flows, but am busy making up nucs. If I have single deeps I need to super, alternating 2 or 3 of these frames with new undrawn frames with full sheets of foundation is a real pleasure. They move up immediately and really grab a gear.




















Just remember, when placing frames with a half sheet of foundation, ALWAYS place new undrawn frames with FULL sheet of foundation, or frames of fully capped honey next to the partial frames or they will extend frames with empty comb into the foundationless areas if they are _above_ the broodnest area. If they are in the broodnest, you can get away with placing them next to drawn comb.


----------



## Riskybizz

That's a "small swarm" lol...

So this practice of partial frame foundation is this done primarily as a cost saving practice?


----------



## Lauri

Riskybizz said:


> So this practice of partial frame foundation is this done primarily as a cost saving practice?


It started out that way, but the savings of foundation costs became a lot less important once I saw the other benefits. I like giving them some space to build what they want (Natural cells) but I get what I want (A good area of reliably built worker cells) I like the cut comb, I like the way they work them and the results of the health and contentment of my colonies. I like the options I have with them for certain types of management.


----------



## Lauri

Here are a few more frames:
You may remember I have mentioned they will draw and fill a 'mirror' image from one frame to the next. Here is an example:



















Seeing this, could it be they are reluctant to draw and fill the outside frames in the hive not because the sides are cooler, but because they don't have that 'mirror image' to guide them? Hmmmm...

I always have a couple hives that get mice in them. When they do, they will chew the foundationless areas and leave the plastic foundation alone:




































Well, it's better than stomping on them 

Close up of worker cells & foundationless area-frame was drawn with in a colony with an overwintered queen.










Older frame, but when drawn out in a colony with a newly mated queen, you'll get more worker cell sized comb in the foundationless area.










Drone culling for mite control









Compare to fully foundationless in deep frame. Not only unstable but unreliable:










Even when supported, still unreliable cell size










Have an ugly area? Just hack it out. 










Or you can do this, which the bees do fix, but is sure ugly


----------



## Lauri

If not all new alternated frames above brood nest, Do this:



















Here's what I usually get with all new alternated frames


----------



## Vancouver

Lauri, thank you very much for this thread. Very interesting and helpful. I'm a newbie, so please excuse the questions, but can you please clarify, in the brood, do you use 5 2/3 frames or is that too much drone production frames to stay on top of? You mentioned you alternate partials with full sheets of foundation. If you use 2/3rds or 1/2 sheets, could you use strictly partials and offset them so that there is always a mirror image. ie. 1/2 on the left, then 1/2 on the right, then 1/2 on the left. Thanks so much!!!!!!


----------

