# Deformed wing



## R.L. Bee (Mar 8, 2006)

Should you ever see deformed wings on bees that are on small cell. Is this something that is totally a symptom of high mite infestation,Or can it occur in any hive.I found a couple in the hive that I found that didn't have any foundation and also saw one on the ground at a hive I've been observing that I found in a church wall.I know thats not a lot and was wondering if that is normal with small cell with no treatment.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

What made you think that mites and viruses are not present on small-cell? Get past all the personal agendas, self promotion and marketing....the truth is out there!

The DWV is an indication of high mites infestation. Something that should be seen with regular mite counts. I would not give a hive displaying DWV a good chance for winter survival. 

Better get them on some smaller small cell..


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi RL Bee,

DWV is an indication of mite infestation and susceptibility to the viruses that cause it. I've had hives with extremely high mite counts that never showed any sign of DWV. And on the other hand, I've had hives with low to moderate mite loads that were decimated by DWV. 

If you are in your first year and are doing an organic regression without any treatments, you will experience what every other small cell beekeeper, who follows that protocol, experiences: the collapse and loss of the majority of your hives from mite overload. It's a great opportunity to watch how mites/viruses can destroy hives of bees. 

But there are other options. You can treat you PMS hives with a non-contaiminating treatment. This will give them some time to come into equilibrium with the mites without you loosing most of your bees.

Regards
Dennis


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--I found a couple in the hive
--and also saw one on the ground 

I would not necessarally make a diagnosis of DWV based on 3 bees.

DVW is more associated with the degree of susceptibility rather than associated with mite levels, because colonies with low mite counts can have DVW symptoms. susceptibility to DVW can also be selected against thru breeding, further indicating a factor of susceptibility rather than mite levels.

[ September 14, 2006, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

My experience too is that DWV isn't always an indicator of a high mite count. 
I also find that most of the bees with DWV aren't found...they crawl quite a long way...most that I finde are on plastic in my garden 40 feet away, which makes me think that there are many more in in the grass not found.

-rick


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## Craig W. (Feb 26, 2006)

R.L. check for mites and let us all know if you have any so we can come to a conclusion on this for your situation but I tend to agree with ScadsOBess.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

R.L. Bee . . .

>Should you ever see deformed wings on bees that are on small cell . . .

Yes. (I would say "can" rather than "should")









The wing of bees "can" become deformed in two ways.

First, when there are multiple mites feeding on the bee pupa, the "feeding" can cause that bee to emerge w/ wings deformed by the "chewing". This is usually indicative of a high mite infestation.

Second, any time any mites are present (even low level infestation), the mites can activate a virus that is (always?) present in hive. This virus too causes "deformed wings", hence the name DWV.

Once deformed wings are found, B Wrangler has indicated "You can treat you PMS hives with a non-contaiminating treatment". You should learn his method. Most deformed wing hives do not survive.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>First, when there are multiple mites feeding on the bee pupa, the "feeding" can cause that bee to emerge w/ wings deformed by the "chewing"

Don't mites have specific feeding areas on the larvae and pupae where they consume the blood or hemolymph of their host? Do they actually chew on the wings?


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## R.L. Bee (Mar 8, 2006)

Let me go back and try to clear up what I first posted . One of the bees I found was out in front of a church that has bees in the wall these bees I am only observeing to see what happens to them through the winter.The others are in a old hive that I found turned upside down and the property owner gave it to me with there blessings. The bees in it should be on small cell because it had not had any bees in it for years .As late in the year as it was when I got it, I didn't try to do any thing to it except turn it up right and let them straighten it out and added a deep box on top with small cell foundation that I will probably take off before winter because they haven't started to draw out any of it.when I found the deformed wing I started a treatment with Api Var Life. In hine site I wish I would have done a mite count before I started to treat.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

When there is enough mites feeding on bees(larvae) to do bodily damage, many times you will see PMS symptoms as well as other signs along with the DWV.

The DWV is as already stated, present for the bees with DWV prior to any mite infestation. Its the mites feeding on the bees that breaks down the bee immune system and allows the DWV to be seen.

I do not get hung up defining, catagorizing, or comparing "high" levels or "low" levels of mites in mentioning DWV. The point is regardless of the mite count, if you see DWV in your hives, the level for those particular bees is high in what they can handle and cope with. Some hives handle larger loads of mites than others, but its just the same...if you see DWV the hive, it has a high infestation level for those bees and genetics in regards to what they can handle. That is something to be considered when evauating your bees for breeding considerations or for requeening possibilities.

To say that you sometimes see DWV in hives with low mite counts just indicates how weak your bees abilities to handle mites actual is. For those hives, the "level" is high, regardless of how high you count, or do not count. If I see DWV, I stand by saying that for that particular hive, the mite level is high.

Thanks RL for clarifying. There are really too many possibilities in regards to the bees you mention. Are they feral or a recent swarm? What size comb and are they regressed? Genetics?....We really can't say a whole lot about them. Except that I would not get excited in thinking they are anything special at this time. As already stated, I would not give a hive displaying DWV a good chance of surviving over winter.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Can bees with deformed wings fly? The reason I ask is that although I haven't seen any with deformed wings inside the hive, I did find one in my veggie garden the other day. I thought that maybe I had hit her with my weed whacker, but those wings did look deformed rather than thrashed.


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## R.L. Bee (Mar 8, 2006)

Bjorn the only thing I know for sure is the bees were in the hive I got, in Feb of this year.Thanks all.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Tia . . .
>Can bees with deformed wings fly? . . .
When I see DW bees, they are crawling.

Dick Allen . . .
>Do they actually chew on the wings?
Thats a very good point! How much blood is in a wing?

Visible symptoms of Varroa mite damage can be evident on newly-emerged bees which are due to the mite feeding on the immatures within the cell [http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/Disorders/Varroa_mites.htm - Accessed 6/25/04]. Feeding on developing bee may cause malformation such as misshapened wings and legs [ABJ, 12/05, p963]. Newly emerged bees may be smaller than normal, have crumpled or disjointed wings, and shortened abdomens [http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/Disorders/Varroa_mites.htm - Accessed 6/25/04].
NOTE: Crumpled wings or failure to shed the last pupal case from abdomen (deformed abdomen? [DLW]) can be a symptom of plant poisoning [Ref 5, p533].


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I would not necessarally make a diagnosis of DWV based on 3 bees.

Me neither. But I'd be doing some mite counts and try to get a grasp of the scope of the problem.


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## R.L. Bee (Mar 8, 2006)

Most of us that are new at beekeeping usually jump the gun on things . I think that mabe the case here. I went back into the hive today couldn't find any deformed wings either in front of the hive or on the top bars in the hive.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>How much blood is in a wing?

Not sure, but I don't think it's much. Wings do have veins, but the veins act more as supporting ribs, although some blood flows along their channels according to Snodgrass (and Lesley Goodman).

My understanding is that the deformed wing virus is now pretty much thought to be responsible. I imagine a virus or some such thing could cause misshapen legs, too. 

Sometimes we do hear that misshappen wings are caused by mites chewing on them, but I think that was an older assumption. We used to read too that male mites since their mouthparts are modified for transfer of sperm were unable to feed. Later on we read that the male mite is able to feed in spite of its modified mouth parts and feeds alongside its sister mites at a specific feeding area on the larva that is kept open by the mother mite.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--Don't mites have specific feeding areas on the larvae and pupae where they consume the blood or hemolymph of their host? --Dick Allen)

Yes. There are specific areas for mites resting feeding and defecating.
You can see pics of the feeding area here: 

http://parasitology.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/login/n/h/j_436_003-0827-4.pdf#search=%22varroa%20%20pupa%20cell%20feeding%20site%22 

The wings may appear to be chewed, but it is actually caused by DVW or my hypotheses (also refrenced earlier by Dave W)is that it can occasionally be caused by heavy feeding of mites on pupa which may be stressful enough to inhibit proper wing growth in the later stages of pupa development.

Interesting note is that the varroa actually only feed on the pupa during the daytime and for a very short time, less than one hour, and never feed during the nighttime. Varroa also have specific movement patterns that enable them to avoid bee development process that might kill them such as being wrapped up in the cocoon the bee larva spins.

[ September 17, 2006, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--To say that you sometimes see DWV in hives with low mite counts just indicates how weak your bees abilities to handle mites actual is. --(Bjornbee)

Hi Mike,

This was the belief up until sometime last year for relatively good reasons because varroa and DVW symptoms do tend to correlate. But there has been new research from ARS in Beltsville, Maryland that shows, although mite infestations can contribute to the infection level of DWV, high mite levels or low resistance to mites in honeybee are not necessarily prerequisites for the appearance of DWV, and that the virus can be spread by a mode independent of mite infestations.

Many beekeepers do report DVW symptoms in colonies with relatively low mite infestations, and this suggests a mode of virus transmission independent of varroa infestation. There is now a strong evidence that DWV could spread out among colonies independently of mites infestation, that is by food secretions from nurses to larvae or from queen to workers (You can Google the quote) 

Bee Research Laboratory, USDA-ARS, Beltsville, Maryland 20705 
Received 12 August 2005/ Accepted 24 October 2005
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/72/1/606 

So by selecting colonies with low varroa counts, you are not necessarily selecting genetics that are resistant to DVW. To put this information to practical use, the queen breeder now should be selecting for DVW resistance independently of varroa infestation levels (varroa resistance) in breeder colonies.

[ September 17, 2006, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Pcolar, 
I know the variables associated with virus vectors. I have mentioned them many times. In giving advice to someone with symptoms and concerns with DWV, I'll normally just go with the most obvious and practical advise. Yes in studies, viruses have been shown to vector in other ways other than high mite counts. In the field, I will estimate that when I see DWV, high mite counts are almost a given. Something about 99%. If you want to explain the other 1%, go for it.

"So by selecting colonies with low varroa counts, you are not necessarily selecting genetics that are resistant to DVW. To put this information to practical use, the queen breeder now should be selecting for DVW resistance independently of varroa infestation levels (varroa resistance) in breeder colonies."

Tell me how you are doing this. Currently I am not doing this task. If it were not for an occasional hive that has high mite counts, I would not have any with DWV. Those hives are culled out, combined or requeened.

How exactly are other breeders selecting for DWV resistance with low mite counts. I seldom see DWV in my entire operation, and would almost need to inject or vector the virus myself to test, select, and breed form this scenario. Not sure if I am up to that. But tell me how you or others are doing this.

Thank you.

[ September 17, 2006, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

As some studies have shown, the DWV is almost a given across the beekeeping spectrum. These studies have shown that vectors such as high mite counts and the breakdown of the bees immune system play a major part of outbreaks of DWV. Other virus vectors include mating, feeding, and other vectors still being studied.

My question would be...If it is a given that the virus is present, and through monitoring, selecting, and providing a evaluating criteria...basically just doing what you should be doing as a breeder.... are you not already selecting genetics that are capable of handling DWV?

Is anyone out there certified or been tested to show thier bees do not have the DWV present? I am not sure as been noted many times that "all" bees have DWV but this is a given it seems within the research community as I know it. But I am not sure if anyone, as I have not heard any claims so far, has bees free of the DWV. So if all bees have DWV, and your breeders do not exhibit the desease, are you not selecting for DWV resistance already? 

And if not, what is everyone else doing to suggest that breeders should be selecting, through some other manner, to provide DWV resistant bees?


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--Tell me how you are doing this.,,,
How exactly are other breeders selecting for DWV resistance with low mite counts.,,,
But tell me how you or others are doing this.,,, --(BjornBee)

Hi Mike,

Ok, I will tell you how they are doing this.
By selecting colonies that exhibit the fewest symptoms of DWV.

This has been discussed for several years on 
Bee-L. I particularly remember that Michael Palmer stating he had success in breeding some DWV resistance into his bees.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Don't confuse sufficient with necessary! Mites are sufficient but not necessary for the transmission of DWV. They are also an exacerbating factor. Once you have the virus (if that is the problem), then it would be very foolish not to do both mite drops and a sugar role. ANY hive of bees can have varroa mites and if you do have them the virus is best treated by 1) ridding the hive of mites 2) requeening with a DWV free queen. While mite resistence bees and tetracycline will help, they are not the solution.

[ September 17, 2006, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Aspera ]


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## R.L. Bee (Mar 8, 2006)

I have always had A bad or good habit how ever you want to look at it for asking why.I as a new beekeeper am only now entering first grade and you all are speaking in first year med school terms . Thats how far out off this discusion I am, but this was my experiance with one of my hiveswas as a matter of fact the strongest hive I had.I waited to long to treat started to see a lot of bees with deformed wings. They were loaded with mites. Then I started to treat And in no time deformed wings were gone.Not at all to say there is not a DW Virus but if these bees had it shouldn't they have kept it and showed signs of it a long time after the mites were killed off.So this was my thoughts that if the hive is loaded with mites all the mites that are in the cells are takeing up space that it takes for the wings to properly develop .in the hive with low mite counts this could be true DWV.I know I'me way over my head here this is more of a why not instead of a must be comment.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

tetracycline would be effective against a bacteria like foulbrood. But I don't believe it would be effective against a virus.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Good question RL Bee!
Varroa infestations weaken the immune systems of the honeybees to the point that DWV infestations develop clinical symptoms that can be identified thru visual inspection.

Honeybees will not necessarily keep showing classic DWV symptoms. DWV is one or 15 or so viruses affecting honeybees, and these infections are generally low level and symptomless, with occasional outbreaks that may occur producing clinical signs at individual bee or colony level. Many infected bees will remain asymptomatic and functional, although usually with a reduced life span. 

Queen fecundity is a central element in colony performance that could be impaired by viral infections and yet not exhibit clinical symptoms. For instance, the undesired queen supersedure observed regularly by beekeepers since varroa first appeared may be related to viral infections according to the prevailing theories by researchers. In DWV susceptible colonies, the reduced fecundity of the queen in combination with a varroa infestation serving as a vector, may be sufficient to increase clinical symptoms to the point that a catastrophic colony collapse could occur. Or it may simply weaken the colony enough so that winter survival is affected.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Although not many researchers will do the research, and not many will promote its use, there has been written material for the past 10 yaers or so that does suggest that terramyacin does have a positive effect in helping bees overwinter, somehow allowing them to handle mites and the associated diseases.

The viruses being vectored, and possible with bacteria transmission also, may work hand in hand to break down the bees immune system.

I know several large outfits that use terramyacin and not for AFB concerns. They swear that they see healthier bees come through winter with a fall application of terramyacin.

I also came across an article from about 10 years ago suggesting the same thing. Not sure if its ABJ or BC, as it was in a large stack of mags I bought at an auction.

Yes, terramyacin is for viral issues. But I am sure that bacterial issues are at play and may further break down the bees immune systems. The feeding of the mites on bees has been shown to have negative impacts from vectored bacteria. Are the bees immune systems better if bacteria would be taken out of the scenario by such use? I can't say for sure.

I am not promoting the use of terramyacin. I only mention what I hear and read, and hope if others have enlightening information or first-hand experience, I wish to learn more on the matter.

[ September 17, 2006, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: BjornBee ]


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

FWIW - and I am not sugesting that anyone do this, it has been shown in a number of species that chronic low levels of certain antibiotics will increase growth rates, and increase finished weight of the animal. Theoretically the animals expend less energy dealing with subclinical infections.

Of course there is a whole downside to using thousands of pounds of antibiotics in the food chain per year.

I mention the above not because I think there should be a drug in every chicken in every pot, but merely as a factoid.

Keith


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

whoops double post

[ September 18, 2006, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: kgbenson ]


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>there is a whole downside to using thousands of pounds of antibiotics in the food chain per year . . .
Wunder what happens to antibiotics under the "heat-stress" of cooking?


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--Of course there is a whole downside to using thousands of pounds of antibiotics in the food chain per year.(Keith)

No the mention the inability of a beekeeper to identify and select bacteria resistant honeybee stock. Probably where the major down side was in propagating honeybees that have trouble fighting minor infections themselves.


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