# Round two - and the champ is down!



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> The father-and-son team went from 1700 hives at the beginning of winter to a little less than 300.


Why do you suppose he is getting hit harder than other commercial beekeepers? Anyone know if he is breeding his own stock or buying it? BTW 1700 down to 300 would be a 82% loss which is still gut wrenching.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Could this be the problem?


> BELTSVILLE, Md., Feb. 10, 2016?Temperature extremes during shipping and elevated pathogen levels may be contributing to honey bee queens failing faster today than in the past, according to a study just published by U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) scientists in the scientific journal PLOS One.
> 
> "Either stress individually or in combination could be part of the reason beekeepers have reported having to replace queens about every six months in recent years when queens have generally lasted one to two years," explained entomologist Jeff Pettis with the Bee Research Laboratory in Beltsville, Maryland, who led the study. The Bee Research Laboratory is part of USDA's Agricultural Research Service.
> 
> ...


This quote came from a member of another forum.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

here is a good discussion about it.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?320530-Poster-Child


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Joel said:


> Not sure if this has been posted yet - Hearing from everywhere about fall bee absconding and loses. With the expected El Nino impact on spring queen breeding and the queens needed to these kinds of losses we are expecting short supplies and likely high supersedes due less quality queens. We best all row together and in sync. At least one large supplier has put out notification they are only promising 75% of queen orders placed in January!


a person at our last beekeeper meeting said another stationary beekeeper that had hives in norther NY near Mr. Hackenburgs hives heard about his losses and checked his hives during the warm stretch of weather and he said his bees didn't look to good.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

One possible solution to the Monsanto / Bayer / 3M / Dow / etc. problem is to outlaw / deny all patents of biological traits.

That loophole needs to be closed, too.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Is every commercial operation having bees within flying distance of farmland using these chemicals experiencing the same % of losses? 

I have no dog in the fight either way with the chemical companies, but "if" they are the root cause of the losses wouldn't this be happening everywhere they are used?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Is every commercial operation having bees within flying distance of farmland using these chemicals experiencing the same % of losses?
> 
> I have no dog in the fight either way with the chemical companies, but "if" they are the root cause of the losses wouldn't this be happening everywhere they are used?


There are so many variables it makes it hard to put your finger on it. Rain and drainage could make a difference, the type of crops, order of crops even hydrofracking.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I followed you right up to fracking, you lost me there.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Is every commercial operation having bees within flying distance of farmland using these chemicals experiencing the same % of losses?


Does Clothianadin corn count?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I don't really know, but I would assume it could be included in the group of suspected culprits. Is Clothianadin corn grown throughout the country, or just near Hackenburgs hives?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> You live in Ohio so you think these problems don't affect you but what if they do?


We have a tremendous amount of fracking in the state of Ohio and I'm certain it has absolutely nothing to do with hive losses. Vertical fracking has been going on here for decades and it is well monitored by both state and federal agencies. "Horizontal" fracking that we hear so much about today is relatively new, but it is the same basic process as vertical fracking. The pipes are encased in concrete through the underground water reservoirs and the actual "Fracturing" takes place well below any underground water supply, sometimes a mile deep under ground. The water used for fracking is contained and disposed of according to federal and state guidelines, and believe me it is very well monitored.


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## Geno (Apr 23, 2015)

Thanks for your excellent explaination!


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

We are hearing about an unusual number of hives from places separated by hundreds of miles with good populations the last week of October and 2 weeks later not a bee left alive, no dead bees in the hive, spotty brood patterns and plenty of honey?????? Could it get more confusing? Good Post by Ace, I think there is a great deal to be considered about those issues. Many of the absent hive beekeepers believe the bees just abscounded, I am more of the though that it was a population collapse with bees dying outside the hive on flights and populations dwindling.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Perhaps we're seeing some resistance to the mite treatment du jour. Neonics been around a long time, all of a sudden they're causing massive and yet unexplained losses???


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Joel said:


> Many of the absent hive beekeepers believe the bees just abscounded, I am more of the though that it was a population collapse with bees dying outside the hive on flights and populations dwindling.


I think one of the key words above is "absent" , and from another post maybe seeing some resistance. My take would be, NY had one of the best flows in the last 10 years, how many beeks kept the supers on until the last of the honey was in, then threw on some kind of mite treatment and became absent. The description of last time I saw them the hives looked great then I came back and spotty brood patterns, no bees and plenty of honey. as mike palmer would say did you pull out some of the capped brood and look at the abdomen. sure sounds like mites to me.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Joel said:


> We are hearing about an unusual number of hives from places separated by hundreds of miles with good populations the last week of October and 2 weeks later not a bee left alive, no dead bees in the hive, spotty brood patterns and plenty of honey??????


Could it be Nosema C.?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I say the problem is from cell phone towers disrupting the bees navigation.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

It would be interesting to see if the ELAP program was defunded if their hive numbers would improve.......


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## capitalbeesupply (Jul 28, 2013)

hilreal said:


> It would be interesting to see if the ELAP program was defunded if their hive numbers would improve.......


I don't know what their circumstances are so I won't say much about it other than it would be interesting to see if the commentary is different. I do know the only relatively sure way to get paid under ELAP here is to claim CCD as the cause of the loss. I know when I've talked to our county USDA office about the program and ask them how they define a CCD loss they tell me it is hives with no bees left in them. In my experience if one tries to go with a claim based on weather in our area it is almost impossible. 7 days of cold temperatures below some number (which I forgot the temp now, but I recall looking back through historical temperature records for our area and it almost never, meaning once in 50 years, stays that cold here for 7 days in a row). So if anybody asks what happened to your hives the answer should always be "they just disappeared"......


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Start watching at 29:05. You should watch the entire thing, but 29:05 is of particular interest to this thread.
Or click here to take you right to 29:05 -> https://youtu.be/t0rC8KnwET8?t=1744


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

Same here with the temperature. For our area it has to be below 14 degrees for 7 days. Even last winter which set all kinds of low temp records we didn't have 7 consecutive days below.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jwcarlson said:


> Start watching at 29:05.


Hard to ignore the message.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

more and more evidence coming in every day, that people are finding high mite counts and hives are crashing this year. checking mine today.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

There is a posting in B L, that during winter of 1938 Charles Mraz lost over 70% of his hives during a prolonged cold spell. There were losses in Canada of 50% all before fracking varoa and neonics. I guess the bees must have known this was coming and just gave up the ghost.
John


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Johno, Back in the 70's everyone was talking about "disappearing disease". It's always been something. While cleaning up in my office recently I found some old beekeeping records from the 70's and early 80's when I operated an outfit in central Minmesota. Guess what? We had some pretty bad losses a few winters back then as well as a few devastating summer spray kills. Back then the federal gummit had an indemnity spray loss program where you could get reimbursed for losses from insecticide spraying. It was a lot of hoops to jump through and required a certain degree of cooperation from the person responsible for the spraying. It eventually was discontinued because (you guessed it) the payments flowed disproportionally to a few "squeaky wheels". I just laugh when I've been called "pro pesticide" because I question how big an effect neonics may or may not have on my bees because I've smelled the smell of rotting bees and brood from a bad spray event. Could low dose neonic exposure hurt my bees? Sure, it's plausible but having experienced what the good ole days were like I've decided I have worse things to worry about. Sometimes I think the biggest difference between then and now is this "disinformation age" we now live in.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> While cleaning up in my office recently I found some old beekeeping records from the 70's and early 80's


The mountains on my desk alone go further back than that.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

My bees are fine winter loss less tha 5 percent and most very strong.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

As long as they keep using systemic pesticide in this country colony collapse will continue. It needs to be banned like in other countries. Beekeepers need to march on DC like they did in France. People need to get the chemical companies money out of politics. Systemic pesticide is in the tissue, nectar, pollen of the plant its not a contact spray. I can defend my bees against mites and contact pesticides. I have no defense against systemic.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

The real problem is too much information is available and all to often it is baseless opinions or bias research. Too often people find exactly what they are looking for. And even more the use the term "We know" when they should be using "We think" Add to that we have people who make statements like "My hive is dead. It was fine when I did a deep inspection in January when it was -20F and they were doing great. Now they are all dead I think it is pesticides" Then 20 second year beekeepers offer supporting information.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Tenbears said:


> The real problem is too much information is available and all to often it is baseless opinions or bias research. Too often people find exactly what they are looking for. And even more the use the term "We know" when they should be using "We think" Add to that we have people who make statements like "My hive is dead. It was fine when I did a deep inspection in January when it was -20F and they were doing great. Now they are all dead I think it is pesticides" Then 20 second year beekeepers offer supporting information.


Ain't that the truth. I didn't randomly choose my signature. I loved Andy Rooney, in the early days of the internet I remember him referring to it as "www.idontgetit.com. LOL, and at the time I didn't either.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Severe winters....pesticides.....exotic parasites.....doomsday in beeland!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

lowhog said:


> I can defend my bees against mites and contact pesticides. I have no defense against systemic.


I'd be interested in hearing more about this defense, given that the forage area of a hive is nearly 30 square miles.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

My hives are mapped on drift watch. If any coop or commercial outfit sprays in the area I receive a 24 hour notice.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

What are the current colony loss statistics in Eurpoe where the Neonics have been banned? Curious if there has there been an improvement?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Curious if there has there been an improvement?


I bet that even if the losses are still high, there'll be the question of residual soil born pesticide. It would be interesting to know...all the same.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I lost one of my outhives most headfirst in cells no food left, a sure sign of neonic poison. One of my overwintering nucs also dwindled and died, the queen must have fed on neonics. The other 97% of my hives are doing well I think they must be neonic resistant. To be sure there is 3 crop rotation all around me. Maybe the bees cant become resistant to mites and neonics at the same time so I have been treating for mites so that they can work on the neonic resistance. LOL
Johno


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## BeeBop (Apr 23, 2015)

johno said:


> I lost one of my outhives most headfirst in cells no food left, a sure sign of neonic poison.


No food left and the bees are headfirst in their cells is a sure sign of neonic poisoning? Really?


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

Systemic pesticide can be a slow death for a colony. Pollen and honey laced with systemic fed to the brood and queen will eventually cause the colony to die out.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Jim I think you should make available some of the tests that you had for insecticide residue on some of your hives, If I remember correctly there were no traces of neonics. Beebop I have as much proof of neonic poisoning on my hive that starved as all the guys squealing about neonics killing their bees.
Johno


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

lowhog said:


> Systemic pesticide can be a slow death for a colony.


But where's the proof that Hack's bees crashed from Neonic poisoning. I go by science and results not can be's. 

Results I say. Give me results, not rubbish scare tactics. My bees are surrounded by clothianadin corn. Healthy and productive. 10% winter loss. 100 lb. crop. .4 mites/150 bees. Nosema ND. 

My friend in the UK made 200lb honey crop on Neonic OSR. Deadly stuff, eh? Slow death, eh? He lost 80% of apiary when the farmer sprayed with a pyrethroid...after the UK banned Neonic treatment. 

So lowhog, you need to come up with something better than can be's and maybe's and what if's.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Now now Michael you should never let the facts interfere with a good story.
Johno


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

I have seen video proof bees loosing it feeding on treated sunflowers. Not only will systemic pesticides kill bees eventually it will get you and me. Its in the plants and fruits you eat not on it. Its in the tissue. You can't wash it off. Wake Up! And you show me the proof its not killing bees.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

lowhog said:


> Its in the plants and fruits you eat not on it. Its in the tissue.


Could you point me in the direction of the studies proving this? Or is this just supposition on your part? I sure don't want to be eating tainted fruit and vegetables, but I guess I'm a doubting Thomas until shown otherwise.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

Google it.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

Mike Google: systemic pesticides you can't wash off mother earth news. And please post a link if you can.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

lowhog said:


> Google it.


I just love it when people in the know can't tell you where to find the information.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

yeah I already mentioned the Abe Lincoln stated that you cant believe everything you read on the internet.
Johno


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

lowhog said:


> And you show me the proof its not killing bees.


Hack claims clothianadin corn is killing his bees....at least that was the story last time I was in his honey house. Don't know what his latest story is. My bees are surrounded by clothianadin corn. Come see my bees and prove to me that it is killing them. 27T of honey, 1200 queens produces. 700 nucleus colonies going into winter. I'll put that up against any evidence that you can provide, or anything somebody at Mother Earth News claims. The proof is in the pudding, not in some article in Mother Earth News. Believe what you want. I'll spend my days trying to keep up with my bees...which work harder than I could ever do.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

You should read the article before you judge. I guess since that article is false I guess the California epa was wrong about eucalyptus nectar and pollen having three times the lethal levels systemic for honey bees. Maybe someday your farmer friend will over treat the soil and by by bees.


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## Vectorjet (Feb 20, 2015)

Mother Earth News, they are about the same as the National Enquier. Little bit of fact and a lot of made-up BS


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

Yep all these scientist are wrong from Europe and Berkeley. No way Neonicotinoids are killing honey bees. They should have never banned the use of it in Europe. I'm now convinced you all know more about systemic pesticides than a scientist.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

Many more articles and scientific studies on the subject not just mother earth news.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Mike Gillmore said:


> What are the current colony loss statistics in Eurpoe where the Neonics have been banned? Curious if there has there been an improvement?


Pollinator.org had a pdf regarding it, I won't dig it up. Colony counts seemed to follow the price of honey and hive products more than anything. No improvement in areas where neonics were banned.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Mike Gillmore said:


> What are the current colony loss statistics in Eurpoe where the Neonics have been banned? Curious if there has there been an improvement?


No real "ban" here in Europe. The use of only three certain neonics has been restricted only in corn and canola. That's it. It is still in use in all other sorts of crops like hops, sugar beets, asparagus, potatoes...name it. All the other neonics are still in use as ever. The overall reduction is about 30 % of all uses. 

Michael, be assured that decent beekeepers do have trouble with corn and clothianidin. Sure you apparently don't. But does that mean, that's the case all over the planet? 

We have good scientists here in Europe and the lab testings were done. The 12,500 hives lost to corn treated with clothianidin in May 2008 is well documented by official state laboratories. Not only here the case was well documented but also in Italy. The university of Udine in Italy has done a long research on the matter. Published as early as 1999. There has been a lot of studies in France, where sunflower treating caused a massive die out. So there are real facts, not just blaming someone else for bee troubles.

As already was said, a many variables can be the reason for real effects or no effects at all. There is water to be named. There is a lot of forage alternatives to be named. Here corn pollen is about the only pollen available at that time of year. There is only corn. Bees chunk down a lot of it and then there is trouble to be expected. 

Also you produce a lot of young queens and I guess slower queens will get kicked out pretty quickly right? So what are the exact longterm effects of neonics on bees? And how does your way to keep bees comes into play?

Bayer stated in an advertisement: Chemical plus Nature. That is what neonics do: they weaken the insect (target or non-target) and nature comes with diseases and does the rest.

If you keep your bees in good shape, do not stress them much and take care for varroa with a chemical product (not Coumaphos though, which accelerates the effects of neonics), you won't see many effects.

But if you work your bees intensively, migrating and such, moving them a lot, the effects of "chemical plus nature" will hit hard. 

Certainly there are grain eaters out there whirling the pool. But there are fine decent beekeepers out there having real troubles and for those other beekeepers should not easily deny all effects described. It is necessary to stand together, as beekeepers. 

Just my thoughts.


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

Just curious, has there been much research into other, non ag related chemicals? I ask because of this article in the NY Times from Jan 10, 2016. Seems that PFOA is extremely persistent, toxic, water soluble chemical. It's not a short read, but I found it quite interesting and wondered where/if it fits in the ccd discussion. 
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/magazine/the-lawyer-who-became-duponts-worst-nightmare.html


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> No real "ban" here in Europe. The use of only three certain neonics has been restricted only in corn and canola. That's it. It is still in use in all other sorts of crops like hops, sugar beets, asparagus, potatoes...name it. All the other neonics are still in use as ever. The overall reduction is about 30 % of all uses.


That is interesting, thanks for sharing. I was under the impression that ALL neonics were banned in some European countries. It's funny how things can get twisted around.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Mike Gillmore said:


> That is interesting, thanks for sharing. I was under the impression that ALL neonics were banned in some European countries. It's funny how things can get twisted around.


Sounds like they are banned on crops that bees might forage on. So the question remains how do losses pre ban compare to those since the ban went into effect.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Read the brochure on Imidacloprid against termites. Especially the Chemical plus Nature section.

http://www.elitepest.com.sg/brochure/Premise_200SC.pdf

I think it says all you need to know, how neonics do damage to bees. 

"...stop feeding, grooming and becomes disoriented"

It is simply decreasing the bees immune system and thus "nature" (=diseases) come and finishes off.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

I have learned that I cannot believe everything I read, even by some scientists and reasearchers; everyone has an agenda no matter who you are and distort facts and bad present unproven theories as facts. This discussion makes it evident that beekeeping IS local, bees ARE different and from each other depending on genetics, and Beekeepers manage their hives differently. And the dead bees with their heads in the cells does not mean they definitely starved.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

I need to update the winter losses chart:









DE = Germany

2014/15: 21 % winter loss rate
2015/16: 13 % " " " 

2015/16 is up to now, some winter is yet to come but probably not much more losses.

In 2014 farmers used up their last old treated seed and spray, so 2015 being the first (and last) year with reduced neonic usage. Although the wintering looks promising, this is only one year. It says nothing.

The most commonly found neonic in bee pollen (in 60 % of all samples) is Thiacloprid (no ban for it at all). In 20-30 % of all honey it is found, too. Next to a ****tail of other fungicides and insecticides. It really spoils the natural attitude of honey.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

jim lyon said:


> Sounds like they are banned on crops that bees might forage on. So the question remains how do losses pre ban compare to those since the ban went into effect.


And not banned on the crops humans consume. Save the bees kill the humans.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Hey Cloverdale, 5lbs of bees plus brood dead on 16 empty frames just after 5 or 6 days of low temperatures if that's not starvation maybe I need to go to the 101 forum.
John


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/28797 Read up and learn the truth.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

johno said:


> Hey Cloverdale, 5lbs of bees plus brood dead on 16 empty frames just after 5 or 6 days of low temperatures if that's not starvation maybe I need to go to the 101 forum.
> John


Maybe you do, couldn't hurt obviously. How many frames of bees? How do you know it's 5 pounds? And why didn't you prepare your hives for winter? You have had bees for 5 years.


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## Vectorjet (Feb 20, 2015)

Truth-out News never heard of this one, but after reading a few articles it became clear what kind of spin they were going to put on every article. There are way too many of these types of publications where the conclusion is reached first, then bits and pieces are chosen from different sources and presented as fact. Then anyone that counters the conclusion is smeared, to taint the validity of their research. Almost all chemicals will have a detrimental effect on life under the right circumstances. Trying to find the right balance should be the goal, instead of running around like chicken little crying the sky is falling because people think that every chemical producing company is evil. Fact: Some chemical companies have done bad things, some have done great things and made our life better. Most have done both.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

I'm in the middle of corn and soybean country and wonder where I can get my pollen tested for insecticide build up. I think colony collapse disorder is a build up of different causes and my opinion systemic is a major player. People should be open minded and check out the facts and not blame the media. Remember the tobacco CEO's under oath saying nicotine is not addictive. They know cigarettes kill people but they still sell them. Most of these big corporations care about one thing only. And that's the ol mighty $$$$$


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

lowhog said:


> I'm in the middle of corn and soybean country and wonder where I can get my pollen tested for insecticide build up. I think colony collapse disorder is a build up of different causes and my opinion systemic is a major player.


Here is an APHIS report with a lot of good information. It's been done by some of the leading bee research scientists in the country (sorry Maryam Heinen isn't one of them). Lots of good information here. I urge you to read it thoroughly with an open mind and come to your own conclusions about what mignt be the leading causes of detrimental bee health. Note the virus and varroa levels that were found and then spend a little time looking over the table on p. 16 showing which pesticides the survey actually found in hives and at what levels (if they aren't listed, they weren't found). Care to hazard a guess as to what the most commonly found pesticides in bee pollen actually were?
https://www.aphis.usda.gov/plant_he...ees/downloads/2011_National_Survey_Report.pdf


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

> The most prevalent pesticides include Coumaphos and its metabolites (detected in 39.4% of the samples)


Oh my!


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Percentage wise there's nothing new! Looks like it's not what the bees bring into the hive, but what the beekeeper puts in it. 

And I suspect that there are certain catastrophic synergies that could occur when the most prominent beekeeper introduced pesticides combine with something like fipronil.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Yes, the synergistic element has only been partially explored but some of the results I have heard of have been ominous particularly as it relates to fungicides. Of course just because something has been detected doesn't necessarily mean it has a detrimental effect but if I had my "druthers"........


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

https://www.seattleorganicrestaurants.com/.../systemic-pesticides


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## BeeBop (Apr 23, 2015)

jim lyon said:


> https://www.aphis.usda.gov/plant_he...ees/downloads/2011_National_Survey_Report.pdf


Thanks Jim, that was a good read.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

2011 is a old study. I'll side with Bernhard on this one.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

lowhog said:


> 2011 is a old study. I'll side with Bernhard on this one.


You really owe it to yourself to read and study this and not just dismiss it because it dosent dovetail with your theories. Let me ask you this. If you read this two years ago what might you conclude? I wish there was more current data as well but this is pretty in depth and sampling was done in both 2011 and 2012. Given the fact that neonics had been in use for nearly 10 years prior to this survey, it's certainly germane to the discussion don't you think? I also find the levels of virus found to be quite significant as well. 
I have a lot of respect for Bernhardt. He makes a good case for what is going on in Europe and he actually references data and not tabloid sensationalism. It is, however important to note that the large kills he references were universally agreed at the time to be primarily planter dust issues, something that apparently hasn't reared it's ugly head in recent years. It's an issue apart from the systemic action. My experience is it's rare to find bees working either field corn or soybeans and I regularly walk fields when they are tasseling and blooming. I can accept that might not be the case in another region of the world. 
BTW some of our hives were included in this survey and they were locations with lots of corn and beans nearby. The report I received was negative for ALL pesticides. I think that's significant.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> As already was said, a many variables can be the reason for real effects or no effects at all. There is water to be named. There is a lot of forage alternatives to be named. Here corn pollen is about the only pollen available at that time of year. There is only corn. Bees chunk down a lot of it and then there is trouble to be expected.
> 
> .


Could the lack of forage diversity and beekeeper's supplemental feedings have a greater impact that the neonics? I know for some it is far easier to blame neonics than practices. This reply is not aimed at anyone, just replying here as BernhardHeuvel mentioned the lack of alternative forage.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

lowhog said:


> 2011 is a old study. I'll side with Bernhard on this one.


Being an "old study" makes it no less valid. I doubt that much has changed in 5 years, other than the large number of new hobby beekeepers flowing into beekeeping.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jwcarlson said:


> Start watching at 29:05. You should watch the entire thing, but 29:05 is of particular interest to this thread.
> Or click here to take you right to 29:05 -> https://youtu.be/t0rC8KnwET8?t=1744


"Get up here and treat these hives or you will loose them"? What about get up here and treat these hives before we depopulate them? They pose a danger to other beekeeper's hives.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

johno said:


> I lost one of my outhives most headfirst in cells no food left, a sure sign of neonic poison. One of my overwintering nucs also dwindled and died, the queen must have fed on neonics. The other 97% of my hives are doing well I think they must be neonic resistant. To be sure there is 3 crop rotation all around me. Maybe the bees cant become resistant to mites and neonics at the same time so I have been treating for mites so that they can work on the neonic resistance. LOL
> Johno


Textual sarcasm doesn't work.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lowhog said:


> Systemic pesticide can be a slow death for a colony. Pollen and honey laced with systemic fed to the brood and queen will eventually cause the colony to die out.


Got any pollen samples with Neonic Pesticides in them?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"The most prevalent pesticides include Coumaphos and its metabolites (detected in 39.4% of the samples)"



Barry said:


> Oh my!


Last year my BIP pollen analysis showed the presence of Coumaphos and Coumaphos oxon some 15 or more years after I last used it.

This year's report doesn't show any Coumaphos in the pollen sampled. So, since I didn't put it there, where did the Coumaphos come from?

What are present, according to the report were one herbicide, three fungicides, and two insecticides. One of the insecticides, Amitraz, must have come from the strips I had placed in the hives to treat mites earlier in the year. I believe the pollen samples were collected in NY in June. It is possible that the pollen could have come from SC, NC, or NY, collected sometime in the two previous months. I had used Apivar in my hives in SC and NC, while the bees were in blueberries, to knock down whatever Varroa might be present.

Beekeeper applied pesticides are always present in the pollen samples collected by the USDA.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Got any pollen samples with Neonic Pesticides in them?


question since NY had your pollen tested, and Mr. Hackenburg and Mr. Doan's hives were in NY, would there's also be tested, a copy of the results sure would go a long way to answering the mystery me thinks. anyone up to asking them for a copy of the sheet.opcorn:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jbeshearse said:


> Being an "old study" makes it no less valid. I doubt that much has changed in 5 years, other than the large number of new hobby beekeepers flowing into beekeeping.


"flowing into beekeeping"? Good one, jb.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> question since NY had your pollen tested, and Mr. Hackenburg and Mr. Doan's hives were in NY, would there's also be tested, a copy of the results sure would go a long way to answering the mystery me thinks. anyone up to asking them for a copy of the sheet.opcorn:


NY did not have my pollen tested. An Apiary Inspector collected the pollen samples for the National Honey Bee Survey USDA/APHIS. Just to be clear.

I have no idea about what may or may not have happened in anyone else's outfits.

Under NY Bee Laws the Commissioner of Ag&Mkts does have authority to regulate Diseases and Pests of Honeybees. I wonder if he ever will?

I bet Tony Jadczak, in ME, has that authority too. I wonder why he doesn't? If I had alcohol washes with 70 mites per 150 to 200 bees sampled I would consider that hive a threat to all the others in the apiary. What about the wider apiary?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Under NY Bee Laws the Commissioner of Ag&Mkts does have authority to regulate Diseases and Pests of Honeybees. I wonder if he ever will?
> 
> I bet Tony Jadczak, in ME, has that authority too. I wonder why he doesn't? If I had alcohol washes with 70 mites per 150 to 200 bees sampled I would consider that hive a threat to all the others in the apiary. What about the wider apiary?


Yes all good questions, so how would we go about addressing them?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Good question.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

My experience is it's rare to find bees working either field corn or soybeans and I regularly walk fields when they are tasseling and blooming. I can accept that might not be the case in another region of the world. 
[/QUOTE] Sorry to say Jim I lost thousands of bees last year when the farm next door sprayed soybeans midday with the insecticide Warhawk. It should only be applied late evening when the bees are back in the hive. The crop was in full bloom at the time. Not only did he kill my bees he wiped out thousands of native bees and did not fallow the labeling (not to spray crops while in bloom) Oh yea he walked the field too. Its hard to see bees on cucumbers that I grow I'm sure its the same with soybeans. Now my hives are mapped on fieldwatch. Another sad part of the deal was Minnesota ag will not take dead bees for testing and I had thousands of wet dead bees laying on the ground. Who are they protecting the bee keeper or the farmer?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Lowhog,
Yes, that is exactly my point, and I know just how you feel. Yes, my experience is bees will work soybeans on occasion but it's not a major nectar source and they prefer most anything else that might be in bloom. Why, then, the rant against neonics which statistically probably isn't in the pollen your bees collected instead of the obvious problem of the foliar application of an organophosphate that you KNOW killed your bees and most every other insect out there both good and bad. Any chance you caught some direct drift?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Chloropyrifos induced bee kill is not neonicoteinoid damage. Warhawk is a broad spectrum spray, not a systemic.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

One hive got hit very hard and very few dead bees on the others so that tells me each individual colony has their own preference. I don't think I would call it a rant Jim I just think its something we have no control over. Like they say its in the tissue of the plants not on the plants. If its in feed corn its in Beef,Turkeys.Chickens,Pork we eat. Its inside all the plants and fruit we eat. Its in the pollen and nectar the bees feed on. Like they say you can't wash it off.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

Fusion_power said:


> Chloropyrifos induced bee kill is not neonicoteinoid damage. Warhawk is a broad spectrum spray, not a systemic.


I know what Warhawk is I read the mda sheet on it last year.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

lowhog said:


> I know what Warhawk is I read the mda sheet on it last year.


So you can understand why it's not really pertinent to the current discussion, right?


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> So you can understand why it's not really pertinent to the current discussion, right?


The discussion was Bee's on soybeans with Jim not you.Right?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

lowhog said:


> The discussion was Bee's on soybeans with Jim not you.Right?


I wasn't aware this was a PM thread that I somehow got access to.
You're using a spray kill to somehow highlight how bad systemics are for your bees...?


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

JW I was not using a contact spray to highlight systemic. I was proving a point to Jim that bees like soybeans. He said they hit soybeans on occasion. Why did I loose thousands if they don't forage on soybeans? Soybeans bloom till frost.


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

I'm probably wrong but I think much of it too has to do with the variety of soybean. The soybeans here I really don't think bloom until frost. They bloom and the beans set/develop, then the farmers let them dry out and then harvest them. So with what's grown here, the bloom is the bloom and that's it, once that's over they're done. Here, on the beans here, the bees really aren't getting anything from them. If they were we'd see a major flow because they're so prevalent but we see no flow. I have a friend who works for DuPont (now Dow), I'll ask her about that, she'd definitely know. I'm not confident in my knowledge on it.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

lowhog said:


> JW I was not using a contact spray to highlight systemic. I was proving a point to Jim that bees like soybeans. He said they hit soybeans on occasion. Why did I loose thousands if they don't forage on soybeans? Soybeans bloom till frost.


Honestly, I wish I knew the answer to that. FWIW I ran a commercial bee operation in your area in the 70's and 80's. I knew the area pretty well and walked many a bean field in July and August after the basswood flow had shut down, in hopes that I might see some evidence of bee activity but was disappointed each time. I will accept what you say but frankly it sounds odd to have one hive devastated and neighboring hives unaffected. I am well aware that different hives can have different foraging habits but this just seems really curious. 
Actually I just remembered I did have a location of around 40 hives this past summer that suffered a setback from an undetermined spray event. Alfalfa weevil spray was the leading suspect, soybean aphid spray was a lesser possibility because it was fairly early in the summer. The damage to the hives wasn't crippling but it was pretty universal from one hive to the next with a good scattering of dead bees by each entrance and hive populations noticeably less than other locations in the area.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

The colony that took the major hit came from a local source. The others are California Italians. Different habits and traits? I guess only the good Lord knows the answer to that one. The only difference I notice is the local hive is more hygienic and spend more time cleaning.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

lowhog said:


> Wake Up! And you show me the proof its not killing bees.


Do you even logic bro?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Nabber86 said:


> Do you even logic bro?


Why logic when you can emote? His Beesource profile says he has been keeping bees 'one week'.  Sure has a lot figured out in those first 7 days. Good for him.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

2 hives and 1yr on the computer does not make an expert imo. lol


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

lowhog said:


> One hive got hit very hard and very few dead bees on the others so that tells me each individual colony has their own preference. I don't think I would call it a rant Jim I just think its something we have no control over. Like they say its in the tissue of the plants not on the plants. If its in feed corn its in Beef,Turkeys.Chickens,Pork we eat. Its inside all the plants and fruit we eat. Its in the pollen and nectar the bees feed on. Like they say you can't wash it off.


Not necessarily.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> Why logic when you can emote? His Beesource profile says he has been keeping bees 'one week'.  Sure has a lot figured out in those first 7 days. Good for him.


 Jw I'm really not a bad guy. I think you should take a trip up here in the summer. You and I can do a little fishing together on the lake. Send me a PM when your available. Would love to talk with you face to face.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

There is a fud factor here that needs to be highlighted. Neonicoteinoids are highly specific with primary activity against insects. They have very little effect on mammals except at very high concentrations. Think about tobacco, if nicotine were poisonous, anyone who smoked a cigarette would be dead. Tobacco is a carcinogen and it has a well known effect on brain chemistry, but it is not a deadly poison to us.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

beeware10 said:


> 2 hives and 1yr on the computer does not make an expert imo. lol


 Never claimed to be a expert on bees where do you come off with that? I worked for 2 fortune 500 manufacturing companies for 39 years and know for a fact if it wasn't for the epa, osha you wouldn't be eating the fish out of the rivers and lakes. I worked for a company who dumped chemical waste in a creek for years before regulations. Do you really believe a multi billion dollar enterprise telling you these pesticides are safe for you and your bees? WOW!!


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

Tobacco killed my Mother and Mother-in law. Its deadly over a period of time. likely Pesticides are deadly over a period od time. We have other ways to combat Aphids.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

I don't know enough of both sides to say for sure what the problem is. I sure would not use non scientifiic articles to prove my point. If you don't claim to be an an expert how can you explain telling commercial beekeepers what the problems are and their facts are wrong.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Fusion_power said:


> ...if nicotine were poisonous, ...


As far as I know one or two cigarettes kills a child if the kid eats the cigarettes. An adult could be killed with two more cigarettes eaten. So application obviously matters...


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Fusion_power said:


> There is a fud factor here that needs to be highlighted. Neonicoteinoids are highly specific with primary activity against insects. They have very little effect on mammals except at very high concentrations. Think about tobacco, if nicotine were poisonous, anyone who smoked a cigarette would be dead. Tobacco is a carcinogen and it has a well known effect on brain chemistry, but it is not a deadly poison to us.


Nicotine is a natural pesticide in that is naturally present in tobacco. The pesticide manufactures used the nicotine alkaloid as a basis for developing neoniconoids; as in new (neo) nicotine alkaloids. 

Nicotine is poisonous to humans. 50 to 100 mg would be sufficient to kill a person, if taken all at once. Cigarettes have about 5 to 10 mg nicotine, but you only ingest about 1 mg per cigarette when inhaling the smoke. Remember trying a cigarette for the first time when you were young and got really dizzy and heart racing. Now imagine ingesting the nicotine in 5 cigarettes all at once. That said, the amount of neoniconoids in a plant that was treated would be on the order of a few micrograms, so it is not a problem for human health.

Also I am pretty sure that nicotine by itself is not a carcinogen; it the smoke, tar, and other compounds that cause cancer.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

lowhog said:


> Never claimed to be a expert on bees where do you come off with that? I worked for 2 fortune 500 manufacturing companies for 39 years and know for a fact if it wasn't for the epa, osha you wouldn't be eating the fish out of the rivers and lakes. I worked for a company who dumped chemical waste in a creek for years before regulations. Do you really believe a multi billion dollar enterprise telling you these pesticides are safe for you and your bees? WOW!!


You must not have learned much in those 39 years, because OSHA has nothing to do with protecting fish in rivers and lakes.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

Nabber86 said:


> You must not have learned much in those 39 years, because OSHA has nothing to do with protecting fish in rivers and lakes.


No but they protect people from harmful chemicals don't they. I wore chemical protection for years. And they check where the chemicals are stored and deposed of. You don't know much do you.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Nabber86 said:


> Nicotine is poisonous to humans. 50 to 100 mg would be sufficient to kill a person, if taken all at once. Cigarettes have about 5 to 10 mg nicotine, but you only ingest about 1 mg per cigarette when inhaling the smoke. Remember trying a cigarette for the first time when you were young and got really dizzy and heart racing. Now imagine ingesting the nicotine in 5 cigarettes all at once. That said, the amount of neoniconoids in a plant that was treated would be on the order of a few micrograms, so it is not a problem for human health.


I smoke. A while ago I got one of those vaporizers to help cut back on actual cigarettes. One day I had an episode at work where I suddenly became dizzy, my heart was racing and I collapsed. I ended up going for a bunch of [expensive] heart and lung tests, which did not turn up any cause for the episode.

Some time after that, I happened to pull the vaporizer out of my shirt pocket...and found the glass reservoir cracked and empty. Mystery solved- nicotine poisoning, the liquid had soaked into my shirt and acted like a mega-dose nicotine patch.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

Bernhard your the Man.:applause: Thank you for all the facts on the systemic.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

beeware10 said:


> I don't know enough of both sides to say for sure what the problem is. I sure would not use non scientifiic articles to prove my point. If you don't claim to be an an expert how can you explain telling commercial beekeepers what the problems are and their facts are wrong.


What facts did he have on systemic? That his bees are next to a corn field and they are still alive. So are mine! So what!


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

lowhog said:


> Jw I'm really not a bad guy. I think you should take a trip up here in the summer. You and I can do a little fishing together on the lake. Send me a PM when your available. Would love to talk with you face to face.


Me disagreeing with your, what I would call, alarmist attitude towards neonics doesn't mean I think any less of you as a person, lowhog. The offer sounds fantastic, however, no chance of making a trip for pleasure at this point in life.  
If you ever find yourself down here I'll offer a tree tour of my neonic ravaged apiaries within a stone's throw of corn and soy, most on four sides.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

lowhog said:


> No but they protect people from harmful chemicals don't they. I wore chemical protection for years. And they check where the chemicals are stored and deposed of. You don't know much do you.



What at does that have to do with fish? You are slipping and grasping a straws. 

BTW - I spent the last 30 years cleaning up hazardous wastes that your Fortune 500 companies dumped in the environment.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

lowhog said:


> You don't know much do you.


He thinks he does ... don't argue with him. Anything you have learned in 39 years is not counted for beekeeping. It is a blank slate once you get that first hive. Just sit back and grin.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> Some time after that, I happened to pull the vaporizer out of my shirt pocket...and found the glass reservoir cracked and empty. Mystery solved- nicotine poisoning, the liquid had soaked into my shirt and acted like a mega-dose nicotine patch.


When I lived in Tennessee, I help cut tobacco one time. Hot and humid, up to your arms in tobacco. Sweating in the sun. I didn't wear a long sleeve shirt and the nicotine went right through my skin. Ended up puking and almost passing out. I am pretty sure my "friends" set me up when I said something about "picking" tobacco. They taught a Yankee the hard way that you cut tobacco, not pick it.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

Acebird said:


> He thinks he does ... don't argue with him. Anything you have learned in 39 years is not counted for beekeeping. It is a blank slate once you get that first hive. Just sit back and grin.


I wish this forum had a like button like the Smith & Wesson forum, Brian you would get a like hit.I guess my problem is I love bees and will defend them. I love my old S&W's also.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Acebird said:


> He thinks he does ... don't argue with him. Anything you have learned in 39 years is not counted for beekeeping. It is a blank slate once you get that first hive. Just sit back and grin.


Ace, you are late to the party. I think we just discovered you intellectual doppelgänger.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Fusion_power said:


> anyone who smoked a cigarette would be dead.


They usually do. I smoked since I was 14 and quit when I was 20. I know I am going to die but I don't want to die of COPD like my father did.
My wife's favorite saying, "Your are free from everything except the consequences of what you do".


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

I apologize for dragging the thread back 2 pages but I think I have a bit of soybean info.

There are in fact two types of soybeans, determinant and indeterminant. Indeterminants, just like cherry tomatoes and any other indeterminant plant, continues to grow even after flowering and will reflower if they get good rain after a dry period even if beans are already set lower on the plant from a previous bloom. I've read from a farming forum that indeed it takes a frost to kill them. I think it reasonable that these are the varieties where honey is being made and bees are hitting them. In my area, no one grows these. Everything around here is determinant so it blooms and sets and that's that. The bees are working other things while that's going on, and during our dearth that bloom is over on the determinant varieties. Wonder if I could talk some farmers into the indeterminant types. Sorry to rattle on, but this mild mystery has always bugged me.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

I must have the type of soys honeybees like around here. Sorry I have been on the defensive but I had a farmer lie to me from the start on the labeling of the product he used. That and acting like he didn't care brought the Department of Ag down on him. If he would have been truthful from the start the outcome would have been different. Good luck to all and hope you have a great healthy Bee season. Thank You for your time.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I wouldn't place bees in an intensive agricultural setting. Nor would I migrate to pollinate. (I am considering a short migration to catch a fireweed flow)

I could see pesticides/poor nutrition setting things up for a disease outbreak. Migration is a great way to catch something or spread things around.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

Just one more thing. After reading this do you think it possible a farmer can have a buildup in the soil which in turn will make the nectar and pollen toxic to bees. After I have seen some of the farm practices around here I do. If a farmer uses Nitroguanidine two years in a row look out Baby!


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> I smoke. A while ago I got one of those vaporizers to help cut back on actual cigarettes. One day I had an episode at work where I suddenly became dizzy, my heart was racing and I collapsed. I ended up going for a bunch of [expensive] heart and lung tests, which did not turn up any cause for the episode.
> 
> Some time after that, I happened to pull the vaporizer out of my shirt pocket...and found the glass reservoir cracked and empty. Mystery solved- nicotine poisoning, the liquid had soaked into my shirt and acted like a mega-dose nicotine patch.


Thank you for saying that. I know someone who vapes who had a very similar incident recently, and your experience is an eye opener. 

Sorry to get off topic.

One thing I did think while reading this thread is that if the original point is true - that queens are in decline this year and supplies may be short - it would not hurt us all to make greater attempts at raising/selling our own local queens.

Think twice before you toss that queen cell! Maybe someone would like it.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

There isn't a person on here who doesn't 'love bees'... or at least like them. You act like anyone who doesn't agree with hair-on-fire panic over something entirely unproven wants to rid the world of honey bees... on a honey beekeeping forum. :scratch:


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

JW hopefully someday we can get the big lobby money out of Washington and get this Poison pulled from the market. Well I have all kinds of customers pulling in that need their chainsaw chains and carbide circular saw blades sharpened. Spring is closing in. Have a great day.


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

lharder said:


> I wouldn't place bees in an intensive agricultural setting.


If you live in an intensive agricultural area, don't want to move, and still want to keep bees...guess what...


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

lowhog said:


> JW hopefully someday we can get the big lobby money out of Washington and get this Poison pulled from the market. Well I have all kinds of customers pulling in that need their chainsaw chains and carbide circular saw blades sharpened. Spring is closing in. Have a great day.


As someone said either earlier on this thread or in another... who picks the people that are going to starve? No system is perfect. If all neonics disappeared tomorrow morning, what would would fill that vacuum?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

The only vaccum would be in the pockets of big chem. There is enough other stuff you can do. It is like treating varroa. There are numerous ways to deal with the [email protected], you don't necessarily need product A or product B. 

Imidacloprid for example is the second most important product for Bayer. The first being the anti baby pill (the one that causes serious trouble to 15,000 young girls in the US alone, but still is sold). That product is not a million, it is a billion dollar business. Per year. What would you expect one will do for a some billions of dollar? Exactly so.

That is the only reason why it still is kept alive. 

Bayer has developed about a dozen more new insecticides that aren't neonics but even "better" in terms of killing insects. According to their shareholders report. If neonics will fall, the next product in line will start another round. And on it goes. The show must go on. And let the dollars roll, baby. It'll kill or at least affect our bees like all the others, but it'll need another 10-20 years until it gets banned or forbidden. Same old, same old.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

> As someone said either earlier on this thread or in another... who picks the people that are going to starve? No system is perfect. If all neonics disappeared tomorrow morning, what would would fill that vacuum?


I'll sell you some squash and zucchini in August.  

If only we valued local growing more. 

As a weird organics person, I saw a movie or heard about entire villages (in other cultures) losing their livelihoods and way of life due to big ag changing the game plan. 

Then again, being married to a non-organics person, I also know how to keep my mouth shut.  His favorite line: The difference between commercial growers and organic growers is commercial growers have acres of orchards filled with big apples, and organic growers have trees with three blotched fruits. haha.

Sorry Beesource for the off topic!


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

libhart said:


> In my area, no one grows these. Everything around here is determinant so it blooms and sets and that's that. The bees are working other things while that's going on, and during our dearth that bloom is over on the determinant varieties. Wonder if I could talk some farmers into the indeterminant types. Sorry to rattle on, but this mild mystery has always bugged me.


Indeterminant beans are only grown in the south where you have long "indeterminant" summers. You do not want your beans to freeze before maturing, that would be a big mess to harvest. They do not really grow forever but flower based on day length and eventually senesce and die.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I don't see why there has to be some line in the sand... you're 'for or against' this stuff. I don't buy for a moment that if we simply stopped neonic use that the result would be 'other stuff you can do'... what's the other stuff? Sprayed pesticides? Is that an option folks really want? I always hear from the anti-neonic folks about alternatives, but show don't tell... 

NewbeeInNH, again... one can value locally grown and still not be some sort of card carrying hippie hellbent on ranting about everything under the sun. My entire backyard is various berries, cherries, and an apple tree. We live on a pretty small lot something like 0.2 acres... maybe 0.3. Anyway, with most of the backyard inhabited by fruit producing plants, we still buy fruit in the summer. Maybe we just eat a lot of fruit... I don't know. But the idea that the solution (for most folks). Other than my own two pinching fingers, I've never used any sort of pest, fungus, or weed control. We're going to grow some vegetables this year too, but I have my doubts we'll be able to adequately supply ourselves even during the summer. If we were on a acreage as we'd like to eventually, that might be a different story. 

I'd still contend that local growing isn't going to cut it, not with current lifestyles. If the current lifestyle is right or wrong is another issue entirely, and not really in the scope here. Which is why I ask, if they were gone tomorrow (meaning for this planting season) what would fill that void? Massive pest problems? I'm asking honest questions, I certainly don't have the answer. 

There are simply too many people in the world, if we're honest. And that isn't changing anytime soon.

Also... your above post makes it sound like you're a female? I did not know that.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Just because I have a husband, that makes me a female?  

Actually, the older you get, the more your gender becomes fairly obscure. 

In NH, there have been meetings on food security, the need to build up local networks across the state/region just in case there *were* an interruption in food supply, not that that's expected. 

But hey, I live on several acres and no one knows better than me that if I had to depend on myself I would starve to death. My food source would pretty much be eggs, strawberries and a few errant vegetables. And a couple frames of honey, so far. Still working on that. The northeast is not a big grain-growing region.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Just because I have a husband, that makes me a female?


If I were placing a bet, my assumption would be female, yes.  That's how I usually base my assumptions.

I'm sure someone has done the math somewhere, but I really wonder how many days worth of food the typical American home has in stock. I bet it's less than a weeks worth for most. 
It's all grain and soy here.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

You Iowans. You're so behind the times. 

My g'father was a homesteader in South Dakota. So much of that topsoil has been lost. Here, we barely have topsoil to begin with.

The movement here is permaculture and edible forest gardens. Fascinating subjects. A growing movement of young people trying to make a living with farmers markets and cash crops. And, just to get back to subject, growing interest in beekeeping.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

This thread has wondered off into the weeds. Get back on topic please.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The fundamental issue we were discussing is a massive hive die-off.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Barry said:


> This thread has wondered off into the weeds. Get back on topic please.


Sorry! Sometimes bees and agriculture seem joined at the hip.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Fusion_power said:


> The fundamental issue we were discussing is a massive hive die-off.


Which one?

A guy I know says that all of the commercial operations in NY loose 50% each year. I don't know who he's been talking to.
I sure don't loose that many.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

Barry said:


> This thread has wondered off into the weeds. Get back on topic please.


I looked at the link the op posted and thought this thread was about Colony collapse disorder. I figure insecticide is part of the problem.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jwcarlson said:


> No system is perfect. If all neonics disappeared tomorrow morning, what would would fill that vacuum?


I asked an Ag Chem Rep that very question while we were both at one of the NYS Pollinator Protection Task Force Meetings this past Summer. He said, "Organophosphates and pyrethroids. The things that neonics replaced, because they harmed mammals so much."

In the Political Arena you hear so many people saying they want to take our Country back. Back to what I always ask. Back to organophosphates and pyrethroids, perhaps?

We could always draft the underemployed into a service which would put them to work picking bugs and pulling weeds, I guess.


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