# single deep brood chamber?



## middlesattrefarm (Jan 3, 2007)

So I have been going through a small mountain of old ABJ that I got, they did a profile of a beekeeper who would swap full brood frames from the bottom brood chamber, to the top chamber, with a excluder between. I also say another beekeeper install packages this spring. He also used a single deep with the queen excluder on top, with 2 drawn supers above. 
I have seen my hives fill 2 deeps with brood, with the queen laying in the third. ( I have russians).
This seems that it would not be the best way of maintaining a hive. So what I want to know is if this is a standard practice to run one brood chamber or are these guys crazy.


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## longarm (Apr 21, 2006)

2 deeps out here. 
Though I see some commercial guys overwinter in one deep and a single western on top.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Three or four eight frame mediums.









When I used deeps, I always shot for two deeps. Sometimes I overwintered a dink in one deep, but usually I would combine it with another small hive.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Better to use at least two deeps. When bees get ready for winter, they need to raise a good population of young bees. They also have to store lots of honey. They also have to store pollen for spring use. At least in my area, they can't do all three in one box.


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## Panhandle Bee man (Oct 22, 2003)

It is a regional issue. Here in the Souteast it is prevelent to run a single deep with a super (or its equvilant) as the basic hive unit. The management goal is to have the queen use the bottom deep to lay eggs in, and the bees will store honey/pollen in the super above, then store any surplus above that. Next summer when you are looking at the brood nest, actually count the frames of brood in the hive, and using a mental calculator remove the ammount of honey and pollen from the brood frames and you will see that your queen is at best laying 8-9 full frames of brood. Some southern beekeepers select queens on the basis of how well the bees keep the brood nest clean of honey (IMO it is one of reasons southern bees don't do well in the north). Also another tactic is for southern beekeepers to extract brood combs to keep them open for brood rearing. 

So I would say you aren't crazy, however beekeepers in other areas that do practise this management system aren't crazy either. Remember all beekeeping is local.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

panhandle sezs:
Remember all beekeeping is local. 

tecumseh replies:
that is the significance of the word culture in api-culture, or agr-culture.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

I know several who overwinter in single deeps. They take honey off mid summer, and let the bees pack whats left through the fall into the single deep. They have good suceess rates.

I think with whatever the setup, its not the setup that fails or succeeds. Its the beekeepers management and manipulations, and recognizing potential problems and dealing with them, that ultimately makes the difference.


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## middlesattrefarm (Jan 3, 2007)

The first time I saw this, it was a beekeeper from central MN, one deep for brood, excluder on top. 
He set it up on the farm I was working at, and we only saw him twice after that. Once to add two supers. and once to take the hives away in november.
I have come to the conclusion that he was not counting on the hives overwintering.
I HAVE NOT USED THIS SYSTEM. And most likely will not. I have found the 2 deep and 3 deep system to work well. It has the benefit of keeping all the honey for a real cold, NE IA winter on hand.


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## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

Before I began migrating to CA for the Winter, I experimented wintering hives here in ND in a single deep brood chamber, and actually had more success than with double deeps. I fed HEAVILY early in Fall (5+ gallons HFCS) via hive top feeders, wrapped with tar paper, and when feeders were empty, stuffed them with insulation to conserve heat/absorb moisture. Also experimented with stacking singles above double screen boards to help conserve heat also. I'd have to check my records for complete accuracy, but recall the last Winter I wintered hives up here (about 5 years ago now) I had around 37 of 42 singles make it over winter (~88%), so it can be done.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

xxxBjorn: I know several who overwinter in single deeps. They take honey off mid summer, and let the bees pack whats left through the fall into the single deep. They have good suceess rates.xxxx

Is it possible or wise to so?

I know that professionals here keep one brood deep. They rob all honey away and then feed winter food.

If hive forage honey for winter into it's brood champer it surely has room to raise wintering bees. 

Here yield is finish at end of July. Bees raise wintering bees during August. Guring that time in August there are now surplus. It it bad weather in August bees consume honey 30 lbs during August. 

Sometimes suplus comes in before midd od July. 
Year 2006 bees filled all room with honey dew when flowers stopped to give nectar.

But I don't know any here who winters bees with honey. 
.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

There is one fellow in our association who keeps all of his overwintered colonies in single deeps. In my eyes it would seem a bit crazy, but for his operation it makes perfect sense. 

His colonies are mainly for local pollination of apple and other early spring fruit trees. This is the bulk of his return and any honey production is secondary and just icing on the cake. He wants his colonies filled with bees but light and just one deep each in the spring when he moves them to the orchards. After bloom he will move them back to his yards, then put an excluder above the single deep and add supers.

Most of his colonies will swarm later in the spring, which he anticipates and accepts, but he gets new young replacement queens each summer. He will pull the supers later in the season and let them pack the single deep with stores for winter.

He does need to feed generously in late winter and early spring before moving them to the orchard sites. His overwintering losses are extremely low and this seems to work well for his business. To me it seems a waste, but it works perfectly for his needs.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>There is one fellow in our association who keeps all of his overwintered colonies in single deeps.

For what it's worth, I'm wintering over 2 hives in single deeps. I hadn't really intended to but I picked up two late-season swarms and they never built up beyond one deep. I was going to combine them but then decided I'd try and winter them over- something that's not done around here. I expect I'll have to feed them come late winter/early spring, but I've got four 4-frame nucs that I expect to have to feed too. Not a biggie.

I'm looking at them basically as 10 frame nucs. If all goes well, I'll go into spring with 2 hives instead of 1 if I'd combined them.

George-


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

We run everything in singles north with as good or better success than with 2 deeps. The queen will not outlay a single deep during the season as long as there is honey storage provided right at the beginning of the season.

Richard Taylor also ran all his hives in singles quite successfully.

In a decision between doubles and triples Drapers Super Bee family had a little dispute about this some years ago. At the the time they ran around 1200 hives. Bill and #1 son Royal continued to run doubles and Chad ran 3 deeps. Chads hives outproduced both Bill and Royal.

Much depends on your management and whether you ahve the equipment and are static or migratory.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>I'm wintering over 2 hives in single deeps. I hadn't really intended to but I picked up two late-season swarms and they never built up beyond one deep. I was going to combine them but then decided I'd try and winter them over- something that's not done around here.

Of course it is George. And you're right...they're just like 10 frame nucs. I winter them on top of production colonies. I use an extra inner cover on the production colony...rim up and notch to the back. Escape hole closed. Another inner on top of nuc...rim down and notch to back. This gives the nuc's combs a bee space under them, and good air flow between the two entrances. Either move to another yard at the end of the season, or move up after they're done flying for the year.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

In one single, your going to have to allow the queen to expand into a second, then to chase her down into a single as the flow comes on. After that, she will fill hte bottom right up, I would argue using the same amount of combs for brood as she would in a two chamber set up. the only problem I have is that when pulling off supers, you have to be right on their tail with feed, for there can be next to notheing in a big hive wall to wall with brood.
But it usually works as an advantage, for they winter better on HFCS indoors, as singles most often have to be wintered up here.
I prefer double myself, just for the fact they seem tobe able to orginize themselves better, for pollen and honey. 
It does require two chambers increasing your investment, but I think three would be an over kill even up here. A loss of un harvested honey, and another chamber to maintain. A third willnot mean a larger honey crop, or better wintering. But will require less feed. Feed is still cheap last time I checked


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Of course it is George.

Well let me rephrase that- in my first year, including what (little) I learned in bee school, and talking with other beekeepers around here, it was strongly emphasized that hives MUST be wintered over in 2 deeps, full of honey if you expect them to survive. I was told to not even consider wintering a hive in less than 2 deeps.

Well of course, having everyone tell me I can't do something is the perfect way to get me to try it


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## RonS (Dec 28, 2004)

George, Joel and Ian,

I thought that in a two-deep setup, the bottom deep was for brood and the upper for pollen/honey storage. Hence, a two deep was required. Will a queen automatically lay in the upper deep? I was thinking of using HSC for the lower deep, but Pierco for the upper. Sounds like that wont' work.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

I am wintering 8 hives in sigle deeps, 3 wintering in 5 frames nuc's and the rest are deep with a medium, they do good.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

. If you look only wintering, 5 frames is enough.

If you want early summer yield it is better to be 2 box wintering colony + pollen feeding. 

Everytihing goes without natural way but compred with what.

Last June my 2-wintered hives were 80 lbs surplus ahead the one box wintered. It again depends on weather if you get early dandelion yield. 

It depends just what you are going to achieve. 
Just wintering, it is really easy.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>I thought that in a two-deep setup, the bottom deep was for brood and the upper for pollen/honey storage.

This whole discussion depends on where you are keeping bees. It seems from replies, that the farther south your bees are, the smaller the broodnest that is required. In the north, where I keep bees, the queen lays in both brood boxes, and I have a third for honey and pollen storage. At Dandelion, many of my colonies have 9 - 12 combs of brood, and maintain that amount of brood well into the summer. I've found that those are the colonies that make the huge crops of 200 lbs or more. I sure wouldn't want to limit that kind of queen to one brood box, so I practice unlimited broodnests. But, as I said, it all depends on where you keep bees.


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## RonS (Dec 28, 2004)

Michael,

Thanks for your post. I will do my inspection this weekend with a sharp eye on the upper box. We have had almost an unseasonably warm winter so far and I have observed most days with foragers out. Of course, there is no nectar, and only juniper pollen available. I've fed all summer and winter, so far. Maybe I should put on a super with queen excluder, due to the warm weather. If I continue feeding and the weather holds up, I should have one heck of a population come the flow.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>If I continue feeding and the weather holds up, I should have one heck of a population come the flow.

Great! Now be certain that you don't short them on super space, when the flow does arrive.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>I thought that in a two-deep setup, the bottom deep was for brood and the upper for pollen/honey storage.

What Michael said. From late spring through summer, the brood nest expands upward and my double deep hives have brood in both boxes, more in the bottom, less in the top. The top box usually has a honey cap and a few frames of honey and pollen on each side. As the season progresses, the queen moves down and by fall, the top deep is largely full of honey and the bottom deep has honey on both sides with brood only in the middle. By late fall, the brood is largely gone and the bottom deep is maybe 2/3 full of honey.

I ran a 3 deep hive last summer and by fall, the top deep was full of honey, the middle deep was largely full of honey and I never got a chance to look in the bottom deep







I was tempted to harvest the top deep but left it on for the winter. Last time I looked, that hive was full of bees.

I'm not planning on running single deeps year round, only trying to winter some over. Come spring I'll give them another box and some feed and by late spring they should be cranking.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I have had good success with singles so far.
They were not by choice, but they did great.

The type of bee you have really matters big
time on this in my limited experience. My
NWC's and Minn Hygenics do well for me.

Bjorn's comments are right on point....

"Its the beekeepers management and manipulations, and recognizing potential problems and dealing with them, that ultimately makes the difference."


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## middlesattrefarm (Jan 3, 2007)

I guess that the bulk of my ideas are based on locals here, and I found alot of 2 deeps, with a shallow. I don't have any shallows yet, so tyhey get 3 deeps. The logic is that I will be expanding for a year or 2, and I will have drawn comb for any new colonies in the future. I have noticed that there is a deep of honey, and the 2nd is half full of honey.
Here it can turn bad in the winter quickly, and I really don't want to open up in bad weather.
I'm really glad for all the input, 
There are as many styles of managing bees as there are beekeepers.


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## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

I have added this link before. They have some interesting info on single deeps.

http://www.sasktelwebsite.net/gilmar/research_and_publications.html


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## Jonathan Hofer (Aug 10, 2005)

I have never wintered bees in anything but single deeps. My survival rate is about 80% every year. I have to start feeding in early September, and each hive recieves about 6 gallons of 3:2 sugar:water to go through the winter. Last year there was ample feed to make it through, and the brood-nest was overcrowded in spring before the flow began. We got our first pollen April 15.


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## albee (Nov 16, 2006)

I run single deeps with 9 frames and a frame feeder left in all year. Singles can starve fast and you have to feed them when they need it even in late summer. In the fall I make doubles and then split them in the spring and this way I requeen half of my hives every year.


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