# Plastic frames



## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

It is not that much work. Hive building is our March workshop. It is only an hour or two with over a hundred new beekeepers last March. It takes a little longer with a large group. Wood frames are more rigid, less flexy than all plastic frames.


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## captahab (Apr 19, 2009)

Ive had alot of luck with the black plastic Peirco frames. I had them mixed in with the wax frames when I first started and the bees took to them pretty well. Now thats all I use plus, I think there made here in the states.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

Is a the flexibility of plastic frames a problem?
Thank you


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Flexibility is not a problem it keeps them from breaking. I have never had a full Pierco frame break.


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## Dancing Bee Apiary (Jan 5, 2010)

I find the flexibility in plastic frames can sometimes be a problem if you have a chain un-capper. If they are too cool when they go into the un-capper they will flex and get un-capped down to the plastic. Not usually a problem anyways because the honey house needs to be warm.
Also sometimes first year wax on plastic is very fragile after it has been un-capped. I've dropped a a frame and had all the wax break off.


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## Merlyn Votaw (Jun 23, 2008)

I have had Small Hive Beetles get in the holes of plastic frames.Not so with wood frames but different problems for different people


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## AndreiRN (Jun 13, 2008)

TPierco frames are mede in Chino, CA and my first 200 went in beautifuly.
The bees built them very fast and is a pleasure to extract them.
I am now at my secont 200 and I am bulding wax with sugar and so far so good. I need built comb for next year season.


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## eqnox (Nov 10, 2009)

Don't use plastic foundation even if you use plastic frames. There can be lots of problems associated with plastic. Many of which are hard for new beekeepers to see.


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## eba1225 (Nov 23, 2009)

I have the white plastic frames and they work well. The bees take to them without issue and build them out well. Am in the process of building boxes for 2 more hives and plan on using the plastic frames in them also.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Most of my frames are the Black mann lake plastic frames. 
I like them.


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## S&H (Feb 25, 2010)

Mann Lakes plastic frames are also the cheapest small-cell option, at least they were last year. They were $1.20 each for 180, but the price has increased considerably. I have several hundred of them, and they've worked just fine. They do flex, so keep the hive tool towards the ends when possible or you might end up jamming the bees a bit. The worst thing in my experience is the burr comb. Burr comb can be really bad if stacking plastic over plastic; much better if mixed among wood frames.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The Mann Lake PF120s and PF100s are also the best accepted of any plastic I've used...


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I also use the black Mann Lake PF's. For newbies (or those with failing eyesight) eggs and larva contrast very nicely against the black plastic.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Also, black frames absorb and retain heat better than white frames. This makes it easier for bees to maintain the correct temperature when rearing brood.

Normally it can take 5 years before a frame is mature and dark like that, and holds the heat. (the kind of frame a queen prefers to lay in)

I trim my frames down to 1 1/4 inch width, and have very few problems of burr comb between frames.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I've experimented with lots of frames, and now feel that I converged (at least until next season 

My current favorite frame foundation combination is a wooden frame (pre-assembled) with plastic wax coated foundation. I prefer Mann Lake as the source. 

I have a lot of pf120, etc. My problem with these is that I've broken a good number of these. Once I dropped a full super about 9 inches and sheared off the tabs on the top bar of about 4 frames. I've also buckled several in a hand crank radial extractor. Once the plastic frame fails you pretty much throw it away. If a wood frame fails, you have a chance of repairing it.


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

My preference is the same as AstroBee's - wooden frames/plastic foundation

I find that the bees glue the boxes together more readily along the tops and bottoms of the full plastic frames. When they do this - it makes it REALLY difficult to get supers/boxes apart.


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## Pink Cow (Feb 23, 2010)

Countryboy said:


> Also, black frames absorb and retain heat better than white frames....


I'm not sure that would be true inside a dark hive. Black absorbs more light than other colors and in turn, generates more heat. Given no direct light falls on the frames in a closed hive, I can't see that color would make a difference as far as heat retention. Of course, thermodynamics is not my day job....


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Radiant heat is "light" in the infrared spectrum. A cluster of bees produces a lot of radiant heat. This is absorbed and given off more easily by anything black than anything white. Now how that plays into the bees staying warm is more complicated that just that. The white might reflect more heat back to the bees but then if it's full of honey... but then when they are clustered and hanging out IN the cells...

Seems kind of hard to say to me...


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I've had superb success with plastic frames and foundation. It will work for you, provided:

1) you have a strong hive (packages are not really strong enough their first year)

2) you have a good flow (but it also takes a strong hive to take advantage of that flow)

3) you add extra wax to the foundation (sponge roller "paints" melted wax)

4) you insert new frames between two existing frames with open brood (which doesn't work as well for honey supers)

5) you have bees that love to draw out foundation

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

RiodeLobo said:


> Is a the flexibility of plastic frames a problem?
> Thank you


I think so. When you pry out a wooded frame, it pops right up. Plastic deflects sideways and is difficult to remove. The plastic frames will stick to frames above and below making it a PITA to pry apart boxes. But, if you carry that box to the truck and stand on end, the frames fall out. The frames are more difficult to hold and inspect than wood, IMO. They twist and bend in your hands. Wood is more rigid and more comfortable in your hands. Also, wood is a renewable resource. The bees will build Q cells in the little slots in the plastic making it easier to miss one on an inspection.

Can you tell? I hate plastic frames!


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## BeeAware (Mar 24, 2007)

*Plastic Frames*

I'd give up beekeeping if not for Pierco frames! Wooden ones fall apart easily, they get stuck as much as plastic, at least in my hives, and they are time consuming. Never use anything now except the Piercos. To each his own.


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## oldenglish (Oct 22, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> Can you tell? I hate plastic frames!


Not sure what brand you used, I use pierco in my deeps and westerns and I have never had them twist or bend.
I did see what happened to some that were put in a solar wax melter but thats different.


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## Ethfol (Jun 25, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> Radiant heat is "light" in the infrared spectrum. A cluster of bees produces a lot of radiant heat. This is absorbed and given off more easily by anything black than anything white. Now how that plays into the bees staying warm is more complicated that just that. The white might reflect more heat back to the bees but then if it's full of honey... but then when they are clustered and hanging out IN the cells...
> 
> Seems kind of hard to say to me...


I was just wondering about looking in the cells for eggs and whatnot. Wouldn't white frames be easier to see. I wonder which is a better example?:scratch:


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Eggs and larva contrast better on black. Even with this cheap camera you can see them.
http://americasbeekeeper.com/Queen.JPG


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## fafrd (Aug 22, 2009)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> Eggs and larva contrast better on black. Even with this cheap camera you can see them.
> http://americasbeekeeper.com/Queen.JPG


Nice looking queen!

-fafrd

p.s. I like medium plastic frames (PF-120) but have been very dissapointed with the deep plastic frames (PF-100) because they were not as flat as the PF-120's. The foundation bowes to the middle and this has screwed up the comb drawing (too thick on one side and too thin on the other).


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

*Re: Plastic Frames*

The key is to buy preassembled frames - no time commitment at all. Mann Lake frames are very sturdy - give them try, I'm pretty sure you'll be happy. I've got a lot of wooden frames and very, VERY few fail. Acceptance is the same.



BeeAware said:


> I'd give up beekeeping if not for Pierco frames! Wooden ones fall apart easily, they get stuck as much as plastic, at least in my hives, and they are time consuming. Never use anything now except the Piercos. To each his own.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Thanks fafrd! We get queens from David Miksa in Groveland, Florida. Two years ago we chose all Cordovan for gentleness with new beekeepers. This year we got a mix of Miksa's Cordovan and Buckfast from Canada. The Buckfast are as gentle as Cordovan and chase small hive beetles like a SWAT team, and they make more honey. As we develop the bee workshops and gain experience, we will offer more options and provide the reasoning so the new beekeepers can make informed decisions. So far we have used Pierco foundation in wood frames exclusively plus green drone frames. I get about 9 to 15 cases of Pierco a year for the workshops. I prefer they learn how to nail frames together the day we nail the rest of the hive together.


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## mleck (Sep 10, 2010)

I have purchased 16 supers with pireco plastic frames.some have moth damae real bad and some have never been put on a hive but are not wax coated. My question is, how is the best way to clean them up, can it be done with boiling water or a pressure washer? just looking for ideas on how to get these ready to use by Spring. Thanks for all the information


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

A pressure washer, or car wash far from your house, works great. Boiling is a bit much heat for the plastic and unnecessary.


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

I like wood, have not had much luck with plastic anything, frames or foundation. Each to his own.


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