# Money?



## Oneupsuperdog (Jun 22, 2012)

Can anyone tell me on average how much money a person can make on each hive that is doin well with making the honey in the southern states? As in arkansas and Louisiana?


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

_*"You can make a million dollars keeping bees. 
All ya gotta do is start out with three million."*_ -TFBM


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## Oneupsuperdog (Jun 22, 2012)

Beregondo said:


> _*"You can make a million dollars keeping bees.
> All ya gotta do is start out with three million."*_ -TFBM


Ok thanks.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Solomon Parker is our resident AK specialist.

But, this is an answer almost impossible to supply. Too many variables. How good a business person are you? Are you treating your beekeeping like a business, or like a hobby? If the latter, the enjoyment factor outweighs the investment return factor.

A friend of mine w/ a cpl thousand colonies figures he spends around $175.00 per colony each year. I haven't asked him what he earns from each colony.


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## Michael Pawelek (Jun 4, 2012)

Last year here in S.E. Texas, and due to the record drought, most saw no honey at all and many experienced the loss of many hives. This year is different and most are harvesting a lot of honey. Each year is different depending mostly on the weather.


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## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

The value of your product will vary greatly depending on where you are, what's your competition, quality, and what's your attitude. And are you good at marketing. The one key that I recommend, is that if at possible, cut out the middle man. If you don't have the time to run your own sales point, see if you can sell it on consignment at local stores. That will at least support your profit margin a little more than just selling it to the store so they can mark it up 100%. After all, one can go to Walmart and get bulk honey for $2-3/lb. But that's because a packer somewhere bought it by the barrel for probably less than $1/bbl, from a commercial beekeeper that just wanted to get rid of it. If you have surplus, don't just dump it to a packer at a low cost, unless you absolutely have to. It doesn't go bad, so if you have space, just store it up until you find a more lucrative outlet. As Michael mentioned above, last summer was bad down here, and honey was hard to come by. With the drought, the cost of hay for livestock shot through the roof, and people were importing from as far away as Iowa. Not sure that honey jumped that much, but it's just a good example of how climate is also a factor.

But IMHO, the quality of store honey doesn't hold a flame to the quality of my own, fresh out of the back yard. I harvested out 3 lbs a couple weeks ago, cut it as chunk comb, and sold it for about $6/lb. I sold all four jars before noon, simply by bringing them to work and telling a few friends. I also set out a jar of incidental honey that I had collected when fixing comb problems. It was cloudy with pollen, but the taste was not compromised. I meant to set it out as bait, for samples, but also by noon, someone took the "free" on the lid a little to literal, and swiped the whole jar! Whoever it was didn't even bother to say "thanks":no:

Be proud of your product, and don't waste a drop. Use everything you can from the hive, and you should see good value, as long as the margins and the market is there to fill. I'd also recommend focusing on niche markets. Again, you can go buy liquid honey almost anywhere. But have you ever seen chunk comb on the store shelf? Not I. What's funny to me, is cutting chunk comb is actually less work than extracting (again, IMO), yet I can demand a higher price as it is a hard to come by commodity, and people absolutely love it! In AR and LA you might find the market already saturated with "local" honey, and that is certainly where the biggest gains are. For once I am lucky to live in the suburbs, because very few people keep bees in the city, even with the recent trend in urban beekeeping. The upside to this is higher demand, as well as a more diverse customer base. Plus in the suburbs, so many people have flower beds and flowering trees, my bees basically work from home! 

The best thing I believe one can do from a marketing standpoint, is to first establish good will, even if it mean losing a little at first, like my jar of "free" honey. It got attention, and I just left a note beside it to call me for more information. 

Then again I didn't even mention apitherapy, package bees, or queen rearing. I think all that will fall under a niche market heading. I'd like to try it all some day. Vertically integrate using what is best for you. I don't know how one guy could spend $175/hive in a year, unless he is feeding a lot, and counting in tangibles like fuel into the cost of a hive. Seems he must be putting in a lot of new packages or something. I spent $135 to get one package and a clipped/marked queen. Another $60 in the hive, and $50 worth of a cheap suit, smoker, and hive tool, and I'm in business. If my splits take, I'll be up to 4 hives in a couple weeks. From an asset standpoint, each established colony could sell for $200-250. A nuc (as they are now) should sell for around $150. So if I sold three as nucs, I'm already over double my original investment. I don't intend to do that, but perhaps you can see the dollar signs.

I don't mean to make it sound like it's too good to be true, because indeed it is...for now. If your serious about trying to make money as a beekeeper, you can't do it because you think you will be cashing in on honey money. Chase those niche markets and you should see better margins. Or again, vertically integrate. 

Alright, I've probably put everyone to sleep, I'm out!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Pawelek said:


> Each year is different depending mostly on the weather.


It is a wonder anyone tries to make a living at farming...



> $175.00 per colony each year.


What would be normal? Can I ask what your ballpark figure is? I have to wonder now if you dumped your bees in the fall and bought new in the spring would your costs be this high?


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## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

I don't believe any beekeeper really _wants_ to just dump bees in the fall and buy more in the spring. But the majors that focus on pollination for example, may not have the time or resources to overwinter 1000's of hives. It's easier from a business standpoint to just set them in the outyard and pray. The time/resources they would have to invest in feeding and maintaining the hives through the winter would outweigh the cost of just replacing a package in the spring. 

Just to clarify, I'm not lashing out at pollination service providers. Again, it's just another niche market, and from a business standpoint, you have to do what makes money. After all, I paid $135 for one package of bees, because I just bought one. The majors buy 100's or even thousands of packages at once, earning a substantial discount from buying in bulk. Some package supplier out there cashes in early, as it is easier to do that than expend the effort of trying to sell one package at time to some hobbyist like me. Now a good pollination services company would buy out that package supplier, to lower their costs that much more, and raise profits. 

My goal in beekeeping is to experience every facet of it as quickly as possible, and then decide which key items are best for me to pursue. So let's say, I'll focus on raising bees and manufacturing hives, so then I can sell established colonies. The honey I would sell just as extra cash. If your goal is to make all your money through honey, then you better find a way to really cut the cost of your bees. If you want to sell bees you better find a way to get cheap feed and queens.

In the end, bees are just another form of livestock, just like raising cattle or hogs. People just don't realize it, and think that bees are something special.

I cannot speak for ballpark figures, as I have not been in it long enough to even estimate. I have spoken with a friend about his friend that does commercial pollination services. This guy runs 3-5000 hives. If each hive gets $100 for pollination, do the math, that's $500,000 per pollination job, assuming he uses all hives. If they all survive, and can be moved, say from CA after the bloom up to the NE for blueberries and cherries, he might pick up another $100/hive there. But there are massive costs incurred in between on transport and maintenance. In the end, in a good year, he may pocket $150-200K, which is nothing to snub your nose at. But that takes a lot of work, and even more risk to run a program that big. In a bad year he stands to lose just as much. 

I've been keeping a detailed balance sheet of my paltry operation. Part is for proof to my wife that it is not always a losing game. The other part is for records. If I do find it to be a losing game, then I'll know that I need to change my strategy or abandon the chase. The people that lose everything tend to keep poor records and run a pretty bad operation. I'd venture to say that the ones that lose big, are the same ones that buy in too big, expecting to make a quick buck without truly understanding the bees or the market. Start small, and when you find what works, ramp up quick. And don't always look to cash in early. It takes six years to create a new breed of orchid flower, but when it sells, it can be game changer! Patience will prevail.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

You can make money off of your hobby bee hives in the south if you try - after you stop spending a lot of money on equipment. 

Last year I overwintered 10 hives and harvested an average of a bit more than 15 quarts each from 7 of them. My feed cost was ababout $20 per hive, medication was almost nothing. That was one year - my first honey year, not every year. You can do the math.

It wasn't a lot, but it paid for my equipment up to that point including a small maxant extractor. This year my honey is looking a little better, and I have only bought some frames - so profit should be better. I might make a dollar an hour.

Also my entire extended family gets to enjoy homegrown honey all year.


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

Here,in a bad year,$0.00.In the best of all possible years,when everything goes just right,
around $300.00.That would be with the sale of some honey and a nuc or two.I freely admit that I have not had that second scenario happen to all hives in a single year.I am happy with something in the 100-200 range.Mine is a backyard operation and I don't do pollination.
Everyone's operation is different.


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## Michael Pawelek (Jun 4, 2012)

Hey Tom,
Bring me a gallon of your "free" honey and I will be a nice guy and tell you who ate it!


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## casinoken (May 6, 2012)

I understand that commercial beeks are in it for the money, however, I'm in it for the enjoyment. I walk over every morning, just to watch the girls fly in and out. I love watching them. I'm diabetic,so don't really care about the honey, however, I ama candle maker, and do care about the beeswax. To each his own.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Guys, the OP simply asked for an average profit per hive that can be reasonably expected when things are going well in AR and LA.

I am curious, too.


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## keeper (Jan 29, 2012)

The most I have ever made off of a single hive in a single season was about $500.00 That was after expenses. But that was using the hives in nuc production and selling 8 nucs from each hive.

With the longer season you should be able to do better than that.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

$500 net from one hive!? Wow!


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> Solomon Parker is our resident AK specialist.


Never been there.

Here in Northwest Arkansas, there are a few beekeepers but no commercials. There is only one commercial operation that I know of and that is down in the delta. So it can be done.

This year, I harvested about $1000 worth of honey and sold three queens and three nucs. If I don't watch out, I'm going to start breaking even. This is my ninth year and this is the first year that I'm coming close to breaking even. Part of that is I'm in the first year where I have as many hives as I want. I'll lose some this winter to even the numbers out and set me up with drawn comb and then I'll be right where I want to be.

You want to make money? Have as many hives as you want, no more, no less, and make sure it's a sustainable population. That's all I have for you. Exactly how much is wild eyed speculation at best.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If you ask around people will tell you that there is more money in selling bees than honey but the OP specifically asked about honey. If two dollars is the going rate for bulk honey than a hive that produces 100 pounds brings in $200 gross. Even with all the variables I can't see the average being too far away from the $200 mark.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oneupsuperdog said:


> Can anyone tell me on average how much money a person can make on each hive that is doin well with making the honey in the southern states? As in arkansas and Louisiana?


Someone in your State should be able to tell you what the average per colony production for your State is. Your State Apiculturalist or someone like that. Then do the math according to what you can sell that amount of honey for. That'll give you a guesstimate.

Here in NY, I know, not AR or LA, I had an average per colony production of about 30 lbs. So, selling that honey at about $3.00/lb that's $90.00 per colony. I also averaged $38.80/colony for pollination, across all of the colonies I had. Even though I didn't use all of my colonies in pollination. But, that's how one averages things, isn't it? I also sold some nucs. Around 100 nucs @$80.00 each. So, on average, what would that be from 500 colonies. $16.00?

$90.00 plus $38.80 plus $16.00 equals $144.00 income per colony. Somehow that doesn't look right. I must have missed something. If it takes $175.00 to support a hive, then I've lost $31.00/colony. Which I don't think I did. Something is wrong w/ my figures.

Better luck to Onesuperdog.


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## keeper (Jan 29, 2012)

shinbone said:


> $500 net from one hive!? Wow!


It all is dependent on what you are willing to do. Nobody making a living keeping bees is doing so by selling honey alone. Their money is in pollination contracts and the sale of excess bees. If you are willing to sacrifice all honey production with the aim to make money it can be done.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Actually I would disagree. What you have to do is do all aspects of honey production and sales, nuc production and sales and pollination service and do them well. You have to work as hard as your bees.


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## keeper (Jan 29, 2012)

There are outfits in Ga which do not even extract honey... their complete business model is based on bee and queen production and they clear millions per year doing so. Some of the larger outfits don't even do pollination contracts and don't migrate.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

This report has some honey production data. http://usda01.library.cornell.edu/usda/nass/SB992/sb1025.pdf

Page 3 has state averages. It looks like for AR the state average is in the 70 something pounds a year for the years identified.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

keeper said:


> There are outfits in Ga which do not even extract honey... their complete business model is based on bee and queen production and they clear millions per year doing so. Some of the larger outfits don't even do pollination contracts and don't migrate.


I thought we were talking the average beekeeping outfit. I didn't consider package or queen producers. You are probably right about that.

Larger outfits not pollinating or migrating? Hmmm, the largest do. Maybe you know some large ones who don't. Ones I don't know of ort are familiar with. That's possible. I'll concede that.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I think the average in TN/AR area is ~40lbs per hive, but who knows what you will actually get. It's all about the area your in and the nectar sources.

I've spent somewhere around 3-5k on bees, woodenware, and associated gear over the last 3 years. I started with one hive and now have ~35. 

I've only extracted a little bit of honey. ~9 gallons off 2 hives last year and ~6-7 (80 1lb bottles) gallons off 1.5 hives this year.

My honey has been selling for ~5 bucks a pound and expect to make $360 off honey sells. So in a perfect world that is full of rainbows and kittens, I "could" have made $12.5k off honey the 35 hives.......

I'm sure I would have gotten more honey, but I've been splitting the bees pretty hard and raising queens. I should have my first 10-15 queens for sale on July 9th, which could be another 300 bucks.

Eventually, I see the possibility of making money, but currently.... I could make more working a weekend of overtime.

I plan to get up to ~200-500 hives in the next couple years. I might start making some money with honey, queens, and nucs.... But for the moment. I'm still in the hole.

-Kevin


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> $90.00 plus $38.80 plus $16.00 equals $144.00 income per colony. Somehow that doesn't look right. I must have missed something. If it takes $175.00 to support a hive, then I've lost $31.00/colony. Which I don't think I did. Something is wrong w/ my figures.


It is a hard life isn't it? Everything looks like a cash cow when you look and the money coming in. It is not until you look and the money going out that you can differentiate between the cow and goose's egg.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

KevinR said:


> I plan to get up to ~200-500 hives in the next couple years. I might start making some money with honey, queens, and nucs.... But for the moment. I'm still in the hole.
> 
> -Kevin


What is your infatuation with losing money on bees if you can make a ton of money on the weekends? When you get to 500 hives it is not going to be fun anymore.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

If you talk about hours worked, I might have the 175 bucks per hive, but I don't have anywhere near that for maintenance cost.

In fact, I don't think it would cost me 175 bucks

$92 on frames/woodenware (top, bottom and 4 supers) and $80 for a 4lb package.

I can feed, graft a queen and split the hive in less than 4 weeks for 100 dollar nuc. *shrugs*


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Acebird said:


> What is your infatuation with losing money on bees if you can make a ton of money on the weekends? When you get to 500 hives it is not going to be fun anymore.


I work in IT and live in my cubicle, which I hate. 

I grew up on a farm, productive farming takes expensive land and equipment. Bees poach on other peoples land for a low investment cost.

I wouldn't lose money, when I actually started to do it as a business. In fact, I'm not "really" losing money now. 

I have 35 hives for less than $145 per. I could split and dump them all for 70 hives at 100 per or $7000 and make 2000 over my total investment.

But, I'm looking for the long term.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If you are trying to think like a businessman and you equated your time as $0 dollars invested you are behind the 8 ball. Not much future in that business.



> I work in IT and live in my cubicle, which I hate


Switch jobs you could be seeing the world.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

I could or I could retire from this career. I'm realist and make very good money.

Don't assume that I don't know how the business world works.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I can't speak for AR or LA states, but I would figure how many hives above 6 frames of brood it would take to take to the almonds in California, where they took around $165 per box last couple of years (although some got as high as $250 late in the season). 

Alternately how many could be taken for the tupelo in the Gulf states. This is much different work - very labor intensive, and is the east coast / southern states favorite honey. I would wince to make comb honey unless I was a very small, new operation and could not afford a honey room yet. It is more of a labor of love / beekeeper only / health food zealot kind of thing, ie. not very profitable, but liquid tupelo honey on a good year could put some serious honey bucks in a guy's pocket.

Also, if you read the Cornell university article Adrian Quiney included above, Louisiana beat Arkansas in per hive yield every year from 2003 to 2007. It would take a local veteran beekeeper to tell you WHY...

The artful management of a reasonable mix of pollination, package bee / overwintered nuc sales, honey production, queen sales, and the 30+ other ways of making money in this biz should keep you in the black about half of the years decade in, decade out. If you are already an almond grower, I could see doing it to save money. If you own a different business that makes money in short bursts and you're looking for something to do with all the excess time on your hands, it is a good sideline sometimes. Watching the stock market is a better one, as are arbitrage, trading gold, and flipping houses. A Chiropractor who works 4 days a week could keep bees 2 days a week and make a little extra money _sometimes_. A guy who owns a pizza joint has to work every night and could never make it in the bee biz.

It appears that for a career, move to California, Florida, the Dakotas, or Hawaii and get big and/or mobile or keep it a small to mid-sized sideline or hobby elsewhere. You still have to be already good at it to make it here in California, that is to say past the steep part of the learning curve, adept at spotting diseases, knowing how to treat everything, intuitive about hive and queen manipulations, etc., or you won't make it in a bee business even with mild winters and a 10-month bee season. Hawaii is a 12-month season, but you couldn't go there and make money in your first year - there's too much to learn and it is soooo different. Better to move into ND in the summer and out in the end of the summer. Florida requires lots of local knowledge like Hawaii.

For steady income, work for the government, or sell insurance.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Tupelo?
Do you think yards can easily be found? 
I would guess that it's a competitve game.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

No, I seriously doubt it. I also wouldn't want to add the price of a load of docks, deal with the gulf oil spill, the fires in the panhandle or any of the rest of it, but a discussion of bees and money would require its mention. the conclusion of my post was work for the government if you want money...on second thought become a lawyer and a doctor who owns his own insurance company!

If you happen to be in the Tupelo zone, that's where the money is. I happen to be in the Almond zone.The poor soul starting the thread is between the good money.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I don't think Mark lives high on the hog but living quite a distance from tupelo and almonds I think he makes good money but I am sure it varies.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

*There is a lot of blue sky to sell a dreamer in the beekeeping field...*

Good question to stimulate discussion and expose us to the diversity represented in our membership. 


Oneupsuperdog said:


> Can anyone tell me on average how much money a person can make on each (hive).....snip....?





keeper said:


> The most I have ever made off of a single hive in a single season was about $500.00 That was after expenses. But that was using the hives in nuc production and selling 8 nucs from each hive....snip....


I'd like to see a graph of the demand and sale of NUCS over the last 15 years. How long will the demand be so high? I plan to keep four hives and a couple NUCS to bank brood and queens. To keep the mite populations under stress and slow the swarming impulse, it seems that splits are the way to go. When you reach your target number of hives, something has to change. You could go on selling the splits (when they are) established NUCS. Keeper shows us how to think outside the honey box.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: There is a lot of blue sky to sell a dreamer in the beekeeping field...*

I'd honestly like to see packages fall to the wayside. They are a product with planned obsolescence in a sense. They keep customers coming back in my view.

I don't sell splits as nucs, I sell established nucs with a queen who's been laying eggs in it long enough so that the most if not all the bees in it are hers. How much money can I make off this? Time will tell, but I've had not a single complaint about my products. I plan on keeping it that way.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

*Re: There is a lot of blue sky to sell a dreamer in the beekeeping field...*

I have only owned bees for 15 months, and I am to the point that the longer I stay with bees the more "confuseder" I become. But, in my opinion, agriculture is monetarily, a poor way to make a living. Almost all of my agriculture friends don't make a living, they just live on what they make.

I think bees are on par with dry land farming. At best, you can make a sparse living, at worst, you will be broke and looking for employment after two dry years in succession. There appear to be a FEW commercial beekeepers that make good money out of bees, but it will take a long time to elevate yourself into their ranks. And even then you will only join them at the trough, if you are very good with bees and business and have good fortune. I think the long odds are that you can make more money working for WalMart.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

*Re: There is a lot of blue sky to sell a dreamer in the beekeeping field...*

Solomon seems to have the right idea - if you can average 90 lbs of honey per hive in Louisiana, you can make overwintered nucs and sell them for about $140 apiece.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

*Re: There is a lot of blue sky to sell a dreamer in the beekeeping field...*



lazy shooter said:


> ...snip...There appear to be a FEW commercial beekeepers that make good money out of bees, but it will take a long time to elevate yourself into their ranks. And even then you will only join them at the trough, if you are very good with bees and business and have good fortune. I think the long odds are that you can make more money working for WalMart.


I think location has a major role to play in success and failure...Oh, the weather too. 

Commercial Agriculture is based on the farmer paying retail for all his equipment and supplies and then sells for wholesale. Don't know any other business that does that.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: There is a lot of blue sky to sell a dreamer in the beekeeping field...*



lazy shooter said:


> I think the long odds are that you can make more money working for WalMart.


I sure hope not.One should be able to do as well as they are willing to work.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: There is a lot of blue sky to sell a dreamer in the beekeeping field...*



Lburou said:


> Commercial Agriculture is based on the farmer paying retail for all his equipment and supplies and then sells for wholesale. Don't know any other business that does that.


I don't think that's right. Do you mean that GM buys its machines wholesale? GE buys their equipment which they use to make Turbines wholesale? I don't think there is an equitable comparison here.


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

*Re: There is a lot of blue sky to sell a dreamer in the beekeeping field...*

Most commercial agriculture relies on government subsidies. Facts are that corn farmers would lose money if it weren't for the subsidies (regardless of the weather). Want to change the face of the modern monoculture agricultural landscape...KILL THE SUBSIDIES...never going to happen with Iowa as the first stop on the Primary trail. 

Probably the best way to make a million in agriculture (beekeeping or whatever) is to start with three million.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

*Re: There is a lot of blue sky to sell a dreamer in the beekeeping field...*



sqkcrk said:


> I sure hope not.One should be able to do as well as they are willing to work.


Sqkcrk you are a hopeless romantic (not a bad thing). Being willing to work hard is a great attribute. Now if one is willing to work hard and is smart and learns the business, then the hard work will pay off. I could write a large book about the hard working, well intentioned people that I have witnessed go broke. In one of John Wayne's movies, he said, "life is tough, and it's tougher if you're stupid." Hard work alone won't get you there.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: There is a lot of blue sky to sell a dreamer in the beekeeping field...*

lazy shooter, you may well be right. But, I didn't mean to imply that working hard was all it took. It takes knowledge of bees and beekeeping, and as much business knowledge and skills. It doesn't hurt if one does not need to have all the latest gadgets, toys, bells and whistle, material objects, conspicuous consumption.

The beekeepers that I know who appear to me to be doing well are smart business persons who work when they need to, not when they want to, put in long hours in the beeyard, the truck, the Bobcat, and the honeyhouse. They also know how to take time off and smell the roses. Ain't nothin' prettier than a sunrise over the blueberry barrens, unless it's a sunrise over an apple orchard.

Yes, I am a hopeless romantic and proud of it.

Sidenote: How come when I enter a Thread titled "Money", the w/in Thread title is "Re: There is a lot of bluesky to sell a dreamer in the beekeeping field..."? How does this sort of thing happen? How is it done? By whom?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Kept more than 100 hives?*

So, that's how it's done? Whatya know?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

*Re: Kept more than 100 hives?*

Someone wrote:

I'd honestly like to see packages fall to the wayside. They are a product with planned obsolescence in a sense. They keep customers coming back in my view.

With the increase of pathogens, and the increase of pathogens in old equipment that is spread by Nuc sales(AFB in NE?), I predict that Nuc sales will not replace packages any time soon.

As for making money, it sure helps to have a history that is salable, skills and knowledge that exceed the competition, the ability to minimize repair and capitol expenditures(read "make your own woodenware and Stainless equipment"), and most important, to have deep enough pockets to span the lean years that have now become typical. Time will tell if we have what it takes. I believe that the above variables far outweigh any regional differences.

Crazy Roland


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Kept more than 100 hives?*



Roland said:


> I predict that Nuc sales will not replace packages any time soon.


I agree with you, though not for the same reasons. Cheap(er) and easy never goes away. And unfortunately, I'll just have to keep collecting the equipment of newbees who gave up after their first or second or third package didn't make it. I don't know what I'm going to do with any more four frame tangential extractors though, I've already received two.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: There is a lot of blue sky to sell a dreamer in the beekeeping field...*



Nature Coast beek said:


> Most commercial agriculture relies on government subsidies. Facts are that corn farmers would lose money if it weren't for the subsidies (regardless of the weather). Want to change the face of the modern monoculture agricultural landscape...KILL THE SUBSIDIES...never going to happen with Iowa as the first stop on the Primary trail.
> 
> Probably the best way to make a million in agriculture (beekeeping or whatever) is to start with three million.


Yeah the farm programs have always been steeped in politics but perhaps you could expand on what corn subsidies you are referring to. Now that high grain prices have made LDP's a thing of the past and the Blenders tax credit is on the way out that just leaves the small per acre program sign up bonus which carries with it the requirement to buy crop insurance if you want to be eligible for any disaster payments. Currently grain farmers are doing quite well sans-subsidies, at least until grain and/or land prices fall back significantly.


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

*Re: Kept more than 100 hives?*

I used to help my friend Sonny farm. He said "farming is a nice way of life, not much of a living though".
Bill


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: There is a lot of blue sky to sell a dreamer in the beekeeping field...*



sqkcrk said:


> One should be able to do as well as they are willing to work.


If you are speaking of physical work the pay scale goes up as you do less in almost any business. The days of working hard and getting rewarded for what you do have pretty much passed. You have to be an fenangler to get ahead today.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: There is a lot of blue sky to sell a dreamer in the beekeeping field...*

Acebird, we are talking bees here, not something else. Let's stick to what it takes to make money keeping bees.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: There is a lot of blue sky to sell a dreamer in the beekeeping field...*



sqkcrk said:


> Let's stick to what it takes to make money keeping bees.


Mark, it ain't no different than what it takes to run a fast food restaurant, construction company, ice cream stand, or raising chickens. These all require knowledge, hard work, determination and the list goes on. But in each case the income goes up for those doing less of the manual labor. If you limit yourself to only you then you have made a choice to limit your business. Most business people would not do this. The money is in growing big.

:scratch:"Now it is kept more than 100 hives?"


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

*Re: There is a lot of blue sky to sell a dreamer in the beekeeping field...*

The original question was, and I paraphrase, 'how much profit per hive in Louisiana and Arkansas.' I still haven't seen an answer to that question. Actually, I think it is impossible to give a definitive answer to this question, as there are way to many variables, but I would have thought that someone could at least fired a SWAG at it by now.

If one wants in the bee business, he/she should copy Solomon's model. Just learn how to keep bees as a sideling for a few years. Test the market for honey, bees, pollen and whatever and determine how best to maximize profits. Bee keeping is a highly specialized and technical endeavor. 

I ordered three packages with the thought of having home grown honey and putting some bees back in nature. I'm 15 months into keeping bees, haven't lost a hive and haven't harvested any honey, nor have I produced one swarm. It can be a tough business.


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## clumsy red bear (Jun 15, 2012)

*Re: There is a lot of blue sky to sell a dreamer in the beekeeping field...*

I asked a local beek how's business, is there money in honey? He said dunno about money, but there's work...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: There is a lot of blue sky to sell a dreamer in the beekeeping field...*

lazy, I did answer it. Sorta. I told the guy to find out the State production average and do the math. That's about as good an answer anyone not from LA can give, in my opinion.

And then I told everyone what it is like for me for the most part. I don't know if that translates to LA very well or not, but I believe it is about as good as or better than anyone else has explained. Other than Solomon I don't recall anyone else telling us what their numbers are like.

Acebird, you are right. But, I think I know quite a few more beekeepers than you and have seen what the difference is between those that make profit from beekeeping and those who don't. Maybe don't want to or care if they do, compared to those who do and those who strive and struggle to. But, yes, I see your point.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

OK I might suggest that the OP simply look around him. It's pretty hard for anyone to intelligently assess the potential for beekeeping with something as general as Louisiana or Arkansas to work with. Sure the national honey report has always shown good averages for Louisiana, but that only tells me that there must be some pockets of good production. Are there a lot of commercial bee locations in the area where you are considering keeping bees? If so there is probably some potential if not well.......there's your sign.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well said Bill Engvel. 
0()(((>


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

@ jim lyon

It's easy to think since grain and bean prices are high that farmers are doing well, but that ignores the spiraling prices of input feed costs. Just ask a cattle farmer about that one. Corn and bean farmers...how about climbing lease prices, out of control fert prices and all the fuel costs exponentially compounding everything. You NEED elevated corn and bean prices just to keep pace with the escalating input costs. Simply put, any student of the market knows that there is NO FREE LUNCH. Yeah, record prices for your goods...that is if you can survive long enough to get it to market. All those factors don't even take into account seed prices and all the chemicals that accompany the planting. Chemical prices stay lock step inline with fuel prices. As far as subsidies, you get up front cash payment once you commit acreage to certain crops (such as corn), then you also get a back end payment once you're fields/harvest go to market. Pure and simple, subsidies drive a great majority of plantings, not "free markets". 


@ OP and original question

As far as making money with bees, honey prices (or lack of) is the biggest factor going. Making money with bees reminds me a lot of like the gold rush. The people that made the most money were the frontier hardware stores selling the picks and shovels. With bees, the money seems to be in THE BEES; selling queens, packages and nucs along with good service. Of course low honey prices drive commercial operations heavily into pollination services, but seems to bee the most important factor there. The backyard beek/hobbiest is most interested in making honey. I don't even want to go down the honey issue/problems road (what's in the foreign honey and what not). :no:

How much money to be made with bees? I suppose one could simply point to Burt's Bees and say millions. It's like in most everything, right place, right time, right message and tons more of hard work and luck (but then again the optimist says that you make your own luck). But what do I know, I didn't get into beekeeping for the money.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Okay I know this is a bit off-topic but I can't stand to leave erroneous statements unchallenged. There are no back end subsidies for grain and haven't been for years. I am a grain farmer I fully understand input costs. Ever wonder who is paying high lease prices for land and why?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Just grainfarmer deficiency payments and prevented planting payments and I wills shut up now. Incentives to stay on the tit. Subsidies to allow the big to get bigger. I first got in to bees the first time because of the relatively low inputs to make a crop. It is still do-able to build a business but it takes skill and luck and a God awful amount of backbreaking work. Now it is an old man puttering and wishing I was young enough to start over.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

No doubt the big continue to get bigger and they have done so in both good times and bad. It may not be what we like to see but it is a natural progression as bigger more costly equipment improves productivity and forces smaller farmers to make the decision whether to sell, rent or be a risk taker and reinvest. Those deficiency payments are just that, payments made when prices are deficient. You would get laughed out of your local Fsa office if you inquire about them today. Btw you can still put honey under loan there today for .60 per lb. any takers?


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## Oneupsuperdog (Jun 22, 2012)

Ok i have a very embaresing confeshing to make. I wasnt goin to admit it. But after thinkin about and yall put all this time on this post i will share. I have wanted some bees sence i was a kid. At 39yr i had forgotjn about them. The other day i was in the checkout line and seen a beekeepin mag.. So i bought it. I was goin to have some bees!!!! After readin that each hive will produece 30 to 60 "GALLONS" of honey per year (i know! Its pounds not gallons) and goin over some figures i came up with... 5yrs i would have 36 hives, i would put $100.00 back for each hive( food, meds), 25% for uncle sam. And i would retire from the oilfield with $52,000.00 per year on my hives.;P sence i have found my mistake im back to getting 3 hives and just injoyin the bees


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## Oneupsuperdog (Jun 22, 2012)

So now that im on the right track is it posiable to buy 3nucs a year, split the hives from the year before and have have a total of 45 hives at the end of the 4th year. Rent these hives to farmer john for $100.00 per hive, collect 3.3gallons per hive, put back 50.00 for each hive( for food and such) pay 25% taxes and walk away with $7,088.00? I guess i should mention i intent is not to sale in bulk but to sale one pint at a time for 6 or 7 dollars a jar.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I dont have the beekeeping experience to answer your question.
Can you break the numbers down a little further so that we can understand these numbers?
Gas, truck, extractor , bottles , labels , laptop , quick books, accountant , package price,boxes, frames, bottom boards, lids, pallets ,etc. are these included.$1280.00 for packages + 4500.00 for equipment + other cost and four years of labor is a tough way to make $7000.00.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Why don't you try enjoying the bees for a few years and see how that works out before you make grand plans. I had them too, I was going to be a commercial beekeeper. Nine years later, I'm a civil engineer and an avid hobbyist. I think I made the better choice.


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## Oneupsuperdog (Jun 22, 2012)

Ok let me just start over. First question. (how many times per year does a hive swarm?) or i might be needin to as how many starter nucs can be got out of one hive of bees per year?


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## Oneupsuperdog (Jun 22, 2012)

Question two (is it posiable to rent bee hives to farmer for $100.00 each?


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## Oneupsuperdog (Jun 22, 2012)

3rd question (can u get $6.50 per pint of honey?)


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## toad (Jun 18, 2009)

oneupsuperdog
In the May 20012 Bee Culture issue the average in your state per hive is 64lbs or 5.3 gals. and the average retail price for 1lb is $7.09 Hope this helps. As far as the splits I'm in colder climate in VA and I wint from 4 the first year to 15 the second to 35 to 85 this year. The first two years bought bees but have bought n bees the last two. Also sold 10 nucs this year. You realy don't want to count on catching swarms, you want to split before thy swarm.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oneupsuperdog said:


> So now that im on the right track is it posiable to buy 3nucs a year, split the hives from the year before and have have a total of 45 hives at the end of the 4th year. Rent these hives to farmer john for $100.00 per hive, collect 3.3gallons per hive, put back 50.00 for each hive( for food and such) pay 25% taxes and walk away with $7,088.00? I guess i should mention i intent is not to sale in bulk but to sale one pint at a time for 6 or 7 dollars a jar.


Probably not, but it's a good goal to set for yourself. The trick is to outpace the dieback.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oneupsuperdog said:


> (how many times per year does a hive swarm?)


Ask one question at a time, please.

Usually once, sometimes twice. Sometimes one will have Fall swarming.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oneupsuperdog said:


> Question two (is it posiable to rent bee hives to farmer for $100.00 each?


Yes, it is possible. Don't ask me where and to who. Someone else is already doing it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oneupsuperdog said:


> 3rd question (can u get $6.50 per pint of honey?)


Yes, you can. But you have to find and develope that market. It takes time and the willingness to accept getting turned down. But not giving up trying. 

There is a lot to all of the questions you might ask at this time. More than you are ready and able to understand at this stage of your beekeeping life. Take baby steps. As Solomon said, "Enjoy your bees first." Then branch out into areas which you might like to try to profit from. Learn how to keep bees. Then learn what it takes to make money doing so.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Vance G said:


> Now it is an old man puttering and wishing I was young enough to start over.


You are supposed to take what you know and get a younger man to do the work under your direction.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

You're still stuck in the 50's. Hard to find a young person willing to do hard work anymore.


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## Heintz88 (Feb 26, 2012)

Barry said:


> You're still stuck in the 50's. Hard to find a young person willing to do hard work anymore.


I been trying to find a commercial guy for months!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> You're still stuck in the 50's. Hard to find a young person willing to do hard work anymore.


A young migrant worker would do.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Heintz88 said:


> I been trying to find a commercial guy for months!


For what?


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

We have people in the oil field that work HARD every day.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

I'll add to my above comment. I live in ranch country, and I see hard working people all around me.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

They are everywhere, if one knows how to look.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Barry said:


> You're still stuck in the 50's. Hard to find a young person willing to do hard work anymore.


A hard working person is not hard to find. A hard working person who will work for next to nothing is. They have to be imported.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Acebird said:


> A hard working person is not hard to find. A hard working person who will work for next to nothing is. They have to be imported.


I think this is the ticket. 

What is the average wage that someone would pay for a hard working younger person? Can your bee operation afford to pay them year round? Or is it seasonal work.


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## keeper (Jan 29, 2012)

Oneupsuperdog said:


> How many starter nucs can be got out of one hive of bees per year?


This method splits a single hive into 6-10 nucs.
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/method2.html


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## Oneupsuperdog (Jun 22, 2012)

Thanks. Well i think u guys have help me out more than i can repay. Thank u all verry much.


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