# Can't stop the EFB.



## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

You should watch the National Honey Show lecture on EFB. Very informative. It turns out there are many strains and they respond to different treatments differently. The effectiveness of OTC has gone down with resistance. Shook swarm is more effective than OTC in most strains. With some, destruction is the only way. The vid is posted in this section. J


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I would like to know where the natural reservoir is for the mellissococcis plutonius bacteria. How much trouble is it to prevent recontamination for the shaken bees? If it is harbored in the soil and ditches in my yard it seems quite a challenge with no guarantees.


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## KevinWI (Mar 18, 2018)

Doing shook swarms have been shown to be HIGHLY successful in Europe to solve the EFB problem. I made a shook swarm funnel and box in part to deal with this should it arise.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

We have always dealt with EFB as a genetic problem. Eliminating and replacing queens that have significant Efb has worked great for us.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> We have always dealt with EFB as a genetic problem. Eliminating and replacing queens that have significant Efb has worked great for us.


I agree. I've heard it said by many professionals that a queen that can't handle EFB isn't worth a cent.

SADLY, the hives that first got it were the fancy "Saskatraz" which are suppose to be incredibly resilient to it, or able to deal with it...but I never had EFB until I tried the Saskatraz. Whether it's coincidence or chance, I don't know. What I do know is my hives I've had for 7 years, which I've raised locally from my strongest hives, did not and still do not show any signs. It's safe to say they are much more adapt to dealing with the problem that even the "name brand" queens. (Or at least the local strain of EFB which I may have)

I've tried shaking them out, burning whole frames, scorching the hell out of boxes, new equipment, etc,etc. I've watched the mentioned video and have been at such a loss - decided to post it publicly.

I fully expect the issue to vanish from sight - at least until the dearth hits. I'm really hoping the daughters of my survivor hives will be just as strong as they are and I can just requeen the "fancy" queens with my known and trusted local stock. That's if probiotics and other methods aren't able to keep the problem away in the first place.

My wife had terrible bacterial infections and every doctor would give her more and more antibiotics which caused a whole lot of their own problems - only for the issue to return after some time. An Eastern Medicine Doctor, instead of putting her on antibiotics, put her on high quality probiotics. This actually solved the issue with the theory being that the constant flood of good bacteria is enough to out-compete the bad bacteria. This will be what I'm doing since the last round of treatment is complete. I'm hoping this theory works out and if not, requeened hives I shall have.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I suspect the fancy Saskatraz queens could handle efb just fine where they are from. No guarantees importing stock as your pathogen environment is different. Make queens from those resistant.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Don't pass on the u tube advice above by;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0B9o4GHq7U&feature=youtu.be

Don't know how you could get your's typed in the USA but the different success rates for different EFB types is both informative and scary.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

We got a very sunny and warm morning so I inspected all the hives.

Not a single sign of EFB. Shiny white larvae, no damage to brood cappings, etc etc.

I was also thinking about a few things, one being that I had been using EO. I know, I've read the research and have converted to not using them, but since EFB is a gut disease and I'd been using EO which have likely been weakening the bees/larva gut flora, I likely opened the door for it to spread - which may have been very much under control.

This year will definitely be a year of health. Trying to give them good instead of trying to kill bad. Breeding my resistant queen should also really help solve any further issues.

The Saskatraz queens are raised by OHB which is just north of me. I couldn't imagine the strain being that different from here to there? Yet, I am in CA and most of the countries bees come in this time of year. I'm shocked there aren't more problems such as hive beetles, with all the bees that are brought into the state.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I heard a talk about efb and it seemed issues typically show up later in the year if my bad memory doesn't fail me. Requeening is certainly part of the solution. We have a radiating unit here in BC and I would certainly start to use it if efb or other brood disease started to make inroads.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

lharder said:


> I heard a talk about efb and it seemed issues typically show up later in the year if my bad memory doesn't fail me. Requeening is certainly part of the solution. We have a radiating unit here in BC and I would certainly start to use it if efb or other brood disease started to make inroads.


I've only ever noticed it in the winter/spring when the hive is attempting to build up - and cannot.

I'm just glad it's not AFB and that I've been able to keep it at bay.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Gamma irradiation of your equipment at a dosage of 15 KiloGrays will kill it off, on everything that is not metal, including drawn combs, and even in honey.

But you say you have a mixed yard, and only treated the hives expressing the disease. That could very well be your perennial reservoir, as well as being a source of constant cross contamination with tools, clothing, etc.

When I had EFB in the spring of 2017, I treated every colony, whether it expressed it or not. (I also used proper OTC, not Terra Pro.) I repeatedly moved my bees into new equipment, scraping off and burning the wax on every comb in every EFB-affected colony. (The gear has been in storage, awaiting a gamma radiation opportunity.). I was a fanatic about segregating all hive equipment and tools to just one single hive. I wore clean smocks over my hive jacket to work each colony. I changed nitrile gloves before touching each new colony. I never allowed any colony to swarm, and I have never made increase from any colony that had showed any sign of it within 12 months. I refused to allow visitors in my yard, except if they wore booties and my own coveralls, which stayed here. I stopped working and teaching in any one else's yard as soon as I was able. I always wore freshly laundered bee clothing whenever I visited another yard. 

I didn't think scorching would successful, so I didn't bother trying it. Most of the EFB-affected gear has been off the hives for more than 18 months. I may keep it out of service for another 12 months, as time is a factor in reducing the bacteria's pathogenicity.

The second year, when I had only one colony express the disease, I chose to euthanize it, rather than allow it to be a reservoir. We'll see how things look this year, but I am hoping for the best. I started with 17 hives and I am down to only 5, so the first year took a terrible toll on my bees, completely wiping out one of my long-standing queen lines. 

I, too, feel EOs are part of the problem, and I never use them except as ingredients in the Dadant Winter Patty, which has the nasty-smelling HBH as a feeding stimulant. 

Where my EFB came from is a still-open question. None of the beekeepers within my foraging range have shown any signs of it. I know, because I have examined the yards of all but one of them. Perhaps I was exposed to it when I was still actively teaching beekeeping, which I finally decided to stop.

Plans are now to finally get my gear irradiated at the correct KiloGray level. (A lower one is used for most irradiation projects, as that works for other diseases, including AFB.) If that goes forward as planned next month, I will probably do shook swarms on to the freshly irradiated equipment this spring, and perhaps just burn the equipment the remaining 5 hives are on now, even though they have shown no signs of it recently. I am that desperate to finally put it behind me. 

I am even planning on irradiating a few hundred pounds of clean wax blocks that I will use for adding wax to my irradiated foundation. I no longer even trust the wax supplied on the foundation by the manufacturer, or in the wholesale wax trade.

If your problem recurs, I would consider shook swarms, another round of OTC on every colony in your yard. Use some level of the fanaticism I had for isolating each of the hives' equipment. And then irradiate the heck out of all your equipment. You will wind up with an entire duplicate set of stuff (I have a triplicate set as I was unable to get the gear to a proper facility last year, and had to buy even more new stuff.) 

As an aside, too many beekeepers claim to never have seen EFB. I think it is more common than believed - passing off as PSM and snotty brood.

I have also read the varroa may be a vector for it, though in my apiary varroa is kept under fairly rigid control, so I discount that possibility in my case. It may have arrived here on a swarm I added the year before it reared its head. I would be extremely wary of taking in any swarm at this point, even though all my bee originated from swarms to this farm. When I read about people's enthusiasm for capturing swarms, and adding them to their yards and hives, it gives me chills.

EFB, just plain sucks.

Good luck to you and your bees.

Nancy


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

enjambres said:


> Gamma irradiation
> 
> EFB, just plain sucks.
> 
> ...


I think you posted it once b/4 but where in NY can you get the radiation done?? I have a couple of people that are interested, thanks


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Ask Pat Bono; she brings her stuff down to NJ for irradiation. I would be interested also if there was a place in NY. And Nancy, that video that was posted from the National Honey Show on EFB/AFB and CBPV was good; the UK has a program of tracking the different strains of EFB. It’s interesting. Watch till the end. Deb


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Cloverdale said:


> Ask Pat Bono; she brings her stuff down to NJ for irradiation. I would be interested also if there was a place in NY. Deb


I don't think there is a place in NY, I know it was brought up by a couple of people at the Ags' and Markts question and answer show that NY should have one, would be a good investment if it were true about all the AFB that we are told we have.:scratch:


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

wildbranch2007 said:


> I don't think there is a place in NY, I know it was brought up by a couple of people at the Ags' and Markts question and answer show that NY should have one, would be a good investment if it were true about all the AFB that we are told we have.:scratch:


The irradiation would be used for EFB, n. cerana, CBPV, etc. in addition to all the AFB that is around.  It’s there but I think most don’t report it. Deb
You attending SABA this year?


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

There is no place that I know in NY, only in southern NJ.

The Montgomery County NJ Beekeeper's Assoc is putting on their once-a-year event on March 18th this year. See their website for details. You have to sign up in advance.

They typically do not specify 15 KiloG radiation, so this is not good enough for EFB, only AFB and some other diseases. The higher dose costs more, and presents some additional issues with combs with honey (they leak/weep more, making a mess). I am not sure what level they plan to do this year - see the website for clarification on that.

The other issue for me is the cost of the transportation, which is two round trips from north of Albany to south Jersey. This adds several hundred dollars to my cost as I would have to rent a truck, twice.

The cost of radiation is much less than $200/pallet which can do up to 42 deeps/pallet. IIRC it's $178??, but don't quote me.

Higher radiation (needed for EFB) and also one-day turn around service is available at additional costs. There is a minimum charge of 7 full pallets to do a run (except for the MontCo Beekeepers thing which is already aggregated to meet that quantity.)

The high cost of transport is the main issue. I have two pallets worth of boxes.

If there is interest among other eastern/central NYers for an EFB level (15KG) run, with a one day turn-around (to avoid double costs for transportation). Let's talk about that. 

We need to do it fairly early in the spring so as not to have contaminated gear being packed up at the irradiation site whern local bees are flying and might encounter it. There are very specific packing instructions, which I have.

You cannot treat anything with metal, such as metal QeX. (Nails and screws in boxes are OK.) You can do pretty much everything else, including combs with honey. 

Nancy


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Cloverdale said:


> You attending SABA this year?


I should some day, I just don't go to those things very often, although I'm going to the one this Sat. in Canidagua A friend got tickets for his birthday, he said I was the last one on his list, but no one else was available.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

While radiation would certainly work. I doubt it's economical or accessible to your average guy, like myself with only a dozen or so hive bodies.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

If you only have 12 hive bodies, does that mean you only have 12 hives? What about your supers, bases, and inner and outer covers. Plus all ancillary equipment, feeders, queen excluders, escape boards, plus frames and combs? Any piece that has been on a hive during an EFB outbreak is contaminated. Moving any of those pieces to another hive contaminates all the pieces in that one, too.

That's the tricky part - it's all or nothing. Efforts to clean or scorch only parts of the entire hive are a waste of time.

Figuring in the cost of a full pallet which can hold up to 1500 lbs and up to 42 10-frame deeps, the per box cost (each filled with its full complement of frames) is less than $4.50 apiece for the radiation. No way you can replace a 10-frame deep and 10 drawn frames for $4.50. You have to add on the cost of transportation, of course, and that's my problem.

If you can find a program somewhere within driving distance, a pick-up truck could haul your stuff there and pack. People with less than a full pallet of stuff in NJ can either elect to share a pallet with someone else, or just pay the fee for the whole pallet to keep their stuff by itself.

My problem is a) we only drive sedans, so no truck and b) I have a lot of stuff so I'll have to rent a truck and drive the 500-mile round trip distance, twice. I would expect to pay less than $400 for the radiation, but about another $1100 just for the trucking. 

But even then, it's STILL CHEAPER than destroying all my gear. Roughly 100 boxes, 600 frames, and nearly 30 full sets of other stuff: bases, covers, shims, feeder, quilt boxes, excluders, snelgroves, escapes, etc. $1500/100 boxes (just the empty boxes by themselves, never mind the rest of the stuff) is only $15 each, which is about the replacement cost of average -quailty unassembled boxes. My equipment is already assembled, painted with high-quality paint, and all of it is the old 7/8ths thick Betterbee woodenware. 

I would use your state contacts to see if you can find an irradiation site near you. It's not a state program, but they may know which of the commercial gamma facilities is working with clubs or other groups to do a run with bee equipment in it and try to see if you can piggyback on that.

Last month the majority of all the managed bees in the US were in CA for the almonds - it seems unlikely there is no irradiation capacity in the entire state.

There are seven locations in CA of the company (Sterigenics) that does the gamma irradiation in NJ. Not all locations of the company do gamma irradiation, and not all may be set up to run loads of bee-equipment. But I'm betting that one or more does. Google and your phone may help you find what you need. Here in the East, I know Sterigenics works with beekeepers in both NJ and FL and maybe elsewhere, too.

Nancy


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

I'm not saying irradiating all your equipment wouldn't work, I'm stating the feasibility of getting it done is unreasonable for someone in my position.

Let' say I buy all new equipment and irradiate everything that would ever come into contact with the bees in the future.

They would still be exposed to EFB as obviously they got it somewhere in the area. A neighbor could have bought a hive from a commercial beekeeper out of state and it died out, from EFB. My hives could have robbed it out and gotten it there, for example. This also goes for OTHER hives in the area.

Let's say I go through this whole process only for my hives to then again, rob out an infected hive, kept or wild.

I think my solution is going to be more genetic. I obviously have a line of hives that is able to keep it at bay -the daughters of an original survivor queen from a cutout.

I surely believe many hives have EFB, like many of us have bacterial infections or virus' - it's how the bees are able to fight it off that's more important to me - cause I doubt the problem is going to go away, even with irradiating everything.

I called up a friend of mine who keeps about 600 hives here in CA. He had never heard of irradiating equipment so it must not be as common a practice as you make it out to be.

And the bees are still here, Almond just bloomed and then we have cherry, apple, plum ,etc etc.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I think the communication is drifting apart here. There is EFB and then there is EFB. 
I did not see a call to nuke every case of EFB, just the need to have an option for the hard core cases.

From the UK video; Medication is only 5% effective and shook swarm only 53% effective against the ST5 strain. Here nuking is close to a destruction choice.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

Saltybee said:


> I think the communication is drifting part here. There is EFB and then there is EFB.
> I did not see a call to nuke every case of EFB, just the need to have an option for the hard core cases.


I'd agree, well said.

Had my cases lead to severe colony deaths or other serious issues - I probably would have just burned everything and quit. If I was a larger operation then irradiating could be a great way to save all your equipment and start over.

In my case, since the cases have been so minor and I've been able to control them - with some new methods to now try - I don't see it feasible to irradiate in my situation.

If it get's worse, I'll definitely work with the local club to determine if there is a surrounding issue (which I already know there is) and what we could all do, combined, to try and help remedy it in the area. Bulk irradiation perhaps?


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Also, most all hives have AFB spores mostly in the honey, and from the above mentioned video, have CBPV in most hives too. It is stressors to the hive/bees that start these pathogens up.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Agreed stressors are a big factor in all creatures mineral absorbtion and immunity. Are you keeping mite levels low Mntmyke? That combined with a long winter and possibly a bee that genetically doesn't handle Efb well could be a problem and possibly "the" problem. Just shooting in the dark over here good luck regardless.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

It’s his Saskatraz bees I think? He mentioned this in another thread on Saskatraz queens.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

The Saskatraz were the first I noticed it in. I've always raised my own queens and wanted to try bringing in other strains as an attempt to strengthen the yard - my mistake.

I'm in Central CA, we don't really get winter. The hardest time for my bees is the dearth from August - October. I haven't noticed EFB during the dearth and it only seems to pop up in the spring, when things get wet.

I'm curious if the wet environment somehow triggers the EFB to rear up. With that, I've also gone as far as installing quilt boxes on top of dry sugar boxes, using a modified/shimmed up inner cover. I find the sugar absorbs most of the humidity and this creates a great snack for the girls during rain storms, when humidity his high anyway. The top quilt box has burlap in it which stays mostly dry but I do take it out on sunny days to fully dry and check the dry sugar between storms.

I haven't lost a single colony this year, so if I can keep the EFB from returning I'm back to a fully healthy yard.

My mites are very much in check. Screened bottoms and I just finished a 4x6 OAV treatment - on all my hives excluding the one that doesn't have many mites, naturally, and the queen I'll be breeding when weather improves.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Good deal myke. Sounds like your really trying to nail this sucker down. I had Efb in most of the 100 colonies that I requeened from Gardners. My friend who ordered a few also had issues. I haven't seen problems with EFB since I got rid of those queens and I still use all the equipment.


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## mybodyisatemple76 (Jul 30, 2017)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> Good deal myke. Sounds like your really trying to nail this sucker down. I had Efb in most of the 100 colonies that I requeened from Gardners. My friend who ordered a few also had issues. I haven't seen problems with EFB since I got rid of those queens and I still use all the equipment.


Did you just pinch the queen and put a cell in or did you treat with antibiotics and then requeen.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

We had mating nucs going so we requeened with our own mated queens. No antibiotics were used and I still don't. I figure if a colony has it the queen is unfit


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I've had EFB a couple of times. What worked for me was to use Oxytetracycline (the stuff you used be able to buy at Tractor Supply) mixed with sugar water and sprayed the infected brood and bees directly. A fellow beesource member helped with concentrations. Worked very well.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

AstroBee said:


> I've had EFB a couple of times. What worked for me was to use Oxytetracycline (the stuff you used be able to buy at Tractor Supply) mixed with sugar water and sprayed the infected brood and bees directly. A fellow beesource member helped with concentrations. Worked very well.


Sadly, that's no longer an option due to new regulations. OTC is now only available through a VFD. I got this and was only able to get TerraPro. It's solved outbreaks just fine but hadn't cured anything. If I could get OTC I'd do exactly what you did.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

OTC and Terra Pro both work the same way - they treat the outbreak by interrupting the transmission of the disease from nurse bees to larvae. Mixed with a carrier (sugar syrup, grease patty, or powdered sugar) which is eaten by the nurse bees , it kills the EFB bacteria in the nurse bees' guts, so they stop infecting larvae when feeding them brood food. Once the larvae stop getting infected, the bacteria stops proliferating in the sick larvae's bodies. EFB is spread when the infected larvae's dead bodies are removed from cells by the nurse bees, contaminating the nurse bees, but not making them sick. It is the contaminated nurse bees that are the vector to fresh rounds of brood.

But it would be incorrect to expect either OTC or TerraPro to be a permanent "cure" for the colony, any more than if you get a bacterial infection and get treated with an antibiotic, and somehow expected neither you, nor anyone in your household, would ever have another infection in the future.

The bacteria remain in the hive environment, to some degree, for some period after it has been effectively cleared out of the guts of the living nurse bees, and after the remains of the infected larvae are cleared away.

OTC only kills the bacteria in the bodies of the nurse bees, not on hive surfaces. It is not a disinfectant.

For EFB, it's the actual bacteria themselves that remain. In the case of AFB, a different organism completely, it forms very long lasting and infective resting spores which can trigger the disease many decades later. (That's why burning AFB equipment is done, simply to physically destroy it so it can't be reused.)

EFB bacteria, because they do not form resting spores, have a much shorter life. I have read that 18-24 months is the limit of how long they can survive on surfaces. It probably also varies according to the storage conditions.

There is a lot of misunderstanding of how treating with OTC works. It arrests the outbreak, but it doesn't remove the causative agent (the EFB bacteria) from the environment. You could think of it as cleaning out the reservoir of the bacteria from the nurse bees, but not from the hive itself. That's what irradiation (and other things like scorching, and even just allowing a lot of time to pass) can do. And it's also why EFB is a recurrent disease - because it is still in the hive after the sick bees have died, and the nurse bees are no longer becoming infected while doing their jobs, and then inadvertently passing it on to fresh larvae.

There may be some transitory, individual, genetically-based resistance to the infection, but as far as I know there are no bees/queens that can avoid being infected in the presence of enough of a bacterial load. That's why treating all the colonies in a yard, even those not showing overt symptoms is a smart idea. 

One of the most pernicious pieces of information regarding EFB is that treating will lead to weakened bees, susceptible to re-infection. That's completely bogus, and a false conclusion drawn from the recurrence of the disease in subsequent years. It re-occurs because the bacteria on the hive surfaces are not killed by OTC, not because the bees's resistance has become weakened by treatment. When conditions once again are favorable to the disease, if there is a high-enough residual bacterial load in the hive, then a new outbreak can occur. Just like if you get an injury that becomes infected. If you are treated, it will clear up. But if you get another injury, and the same type of bacteria gets in there, you will have another infection. Treating your wound does not make you immune, nor does it clear the bacteria out of the global environment around you. Nor does treating the first infection weaken your chance of treating another one, even if it is the bacteria that caused it.

The problem with treating hives "prophylactically" (which was done for many years) is that since there are always going to small amounts of this bacteria around, you increase the likelihood that some of the bacteria will become tolerant, and thus when an outbreak does occur they will have some genetic resistance to the treatment. This is why antibiotics sometimes no longer work as well as they did before. Routine/seasonal treatment is not about bee health as much as humans trying to be save themselves time and trouble. Maybe that used be thought a good idea, but we know better now. You don't get up and pop some antibiotics every morning just in case your get an injury that day, do you? Of course, not! You would keep an eye on any injury and wait for the tell-tale symptoms. Same deal with EFB. Only in large operations is was more cost effective to treat 'em all, just in case, without taking the trouble to look for symptoms. Bad idea!

Nancy


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

...right.

This is why I'll be taking the tactic mentioned in this post.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

The last couple of years I have seen fairly high instances of EFB in a few yards. In talking with Randy Oliver last year he indicated that he has also battled it on and off in California. Certain strains he said are problematic. We have always considered EFB to be a stress related manifestation. Cold damp springs, lack of sufficient nectar source, and most importantly insufficient ratio of nurse bees to larvae. Normally it dissipates as the colony progresses and symptoms generally are no longer apparent. Our normal defense is 3-4 rounds of dusting along the top bars. FRESH OTC has always knocked the hell out of it here even in pretty nasty conditions. Oxy breaks down very quickly in syrups, and sunlight is to be avoided. I agree that genetics surely plays a role but colonies with very good queens may also end up stressed for whatever reason. Quite frankly we don't worry about EFB and have never reverted to destroying combs or equipment as a preventative measure. EFB and AFB are always present and may manifest under certain conditions.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

There seems to be a big variance in experience about the relative ease of stopping EFB or preventing its re occurrence. We seem a bit like the blind men and the elephant. 

A couple of points and some conjecture to pick apart; there is considerable mention about the connection with stress. There has been mention that the causative bacteria has the longest survival in bee bread ( pollen and honey in cells. When the colony is stressed by shortage of foragers or weather that reduces incoming pollen the nurse bees dig deeper into old pollen stores in comb rather than using incoming fresh stuff to feed the larvae. Weather conditions and relative strength of the colony could have a controlling effect on whether EFB takes off or not in the spring. 

The article about the various different types of EFB and observations how they respond differently to treatment regimes might be very valuable in deciding how proactive and determined you need to be to prevent reoccurence. Enjambres has made observations that honey supers would also be compromised is scary.

It seems like EFB could leave you with little to start up again save your knowledge and experience!


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

One thing noticed in the presentation is that when destruction of infected hives was the norm, incidence was low. It is likely removing the most susceptible stock is the best long term solution for controlling EFB. Go ahead and treat, with replacement the end goal.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

enjambres said:


> OTC and Terra Pro both work the same way


Just to be clear, I was certainly not suggesting that OTC was in anyway a better mode of treatment than Terra Pro. However, the application method I employed (spraying bees, brood, pollen, and nectar) did seem to enhance the effectiveness, but that was simply based upon limited observations - no hard data. I have had a very difficult case of EFB that did require comb removal, but other times it cleared very quickly. I'm no expert on this matter, just dealt with more than once.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

wildbranch2007 said:


> I should some day, I just don't go to those things very often, although I'm going to the one this Sat. in Canidagua A friend got tickets for his birthday, he said I was the last one on his list, but no one else was available.


i wanted to go to this but we have other prior family commitments. Ben and Kimberly will be there .


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## Branman (Aug 20, 2003)

Random question, do you have a bunch of pooled water in or around old equipment that the bees drink off of?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Branman said:


> Random question, do you have a bunch of pooled water in or around old equipment that the bees drink off of?


if you are implying that they get afb or efb from the water, I have had hives near milk barns where the bees were pests drinking the water where the cows had gone to the bathroom, and not had any afb or efb in that area. now if a hive in the area had efb or afb, might have been a different result.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

Branman said:


> Random question, do you have a bunch of pooled water in or around old equipment that the bees drink off of?


I definitely don't, no. I have a lot of work into my bee boxes, stained and sealed to match the garden per the Mrs. request. As such, any unused equipment is stored dry in the garage.

Also, again, any hives that showed ANY sign of EFB were scorched, wax cut out and burned and frames scorched as well (I'm foundationless).


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I had EFB several years ago in a minor way but haven't seen it since. Same equipment so I think I have more or less tolerant stock. At least that is my hope I guess. I have not used an antibiotic in years Though I wish I had ratholed a few pounds of tylosin. It really worked.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have been referred to articles on sanitizing comb of EFB bacteria by exposure to the fumes of glacial acetic acid. The suggestion is to stack supers of extracted frames enclosed in tightly sealed large plastic bags with a dish of the pure acetic acid in each stack. Any experience on this?

In Canada Glacial Acetic seems to be rather difficult for an individual to purchase and have shipped. Was wondering if Formic acid vapor would be similarly effective. It is readily available through beekeeping suppliers and perhaps through feed stores as it is sometimes used to wilt haylage. I have seen many empty barrels with that label on them.

I would like to avoid loseing all my drawn super frames but also dont want to waste time and effort with partial measures and eventually have to bite that bullet anyways.


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## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

Have tried. Frames quickly infected otherwise clear colonies.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

This thread reminded me to pick up a couple EFB test kits while I was getting other supplies at Betterbee yesterday. Everyone should have some on hand just in case so you can more quickly determine a course of action and hopefully contain it. J


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Tim B said:


> Have tried. Frames quickly infected otherwise clear colonies.


Tim were those brood frames or honey super frames?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Fivej said:


> This thread reminded me to pick up a couple EFB test kits while I was getting other supplies at Betterbee yesterday. Everyone should have some on hand just in case so you can more quickly determine a course of action and hopefully contain it. J


Yes for sure!!! I think I can reconstruct my trail of clues back to where it was only in *one* overwintered nuc that was slow to get going in spring.

I have to thank Flowerplanter's posts drawing attention to EFB, then Enjambres sharing her experience has been a great focus on the issue, that I think in many cases has slipped through the cracks undiagnosed.


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## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

Brood combs. Don't remember if they had pollen. They probably did.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Here is a NZ bit on sterilizing boxes in a wax dipper
https://afb.org.nz/wax-dipping/


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

My garden torch probably does the job just fine: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00282LP34/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_C1dICbWXJYTMA

These things are gnarly! I can turn a box jet black in about 20 seconds while burning away any propolis and wax left in the box. It's the fastest and most economical way I have found.

I'd love to have a giant wax dipper, but I barely have space as it is - and only having a couple dozen hives, it's never made sense for me.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Yes to that torch. I have something similar that is good for the hive bodies and bottom boards etc., but find that a small hand held propane torch is good for separately doing the frame rest areas of the box without eroding the edges too much. 

A 45 gallon barrel with the end cut out and a wood fire is good for doing the metal queen excluders. Cleaning up a whole hive and all contents without contaminating anything else or exposing trash to bees is quite a logistics problem!


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

crofter said:


> Yes to that torch. I have something similar that is good for the hive bodies and bottom boards etc., but find that a small hand held propane torch is good for separately doing the frame rest areas of the box without eroding the edges too much.
> 
> A 45 gallon barrel with the end cut out and a wood fire is good for doing the metal queen excluders. Cleaning up a whole hive and all contents without contaminating anything else or exposing trash to bees is quite a logistics problem!


I find the big torch at a much lower heat on the edges melts everything quite nice. I also have metal frame rests that I heat up to make sure nothing is left untouched. This keeps the wood from burning away underneath.

And luckily I don't use any queen excluders so I've never needed to clean them, but it's good to know I can just burn them up if needed - much like my boxes.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> and only having a couple dozen hives, it's never made sense for me.


Oh for sure, point was some one with a dipping tank might be a good bit closer and cheaper then some were with a gamma what ever for many people. 

BTW got to ask, your avatar... long or short fins?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>In Canada Glacial Acetic seems to be rather difficult for an individual to purchase and have shipped. 

Probably because it freezes at 62 F (16.6 C)... does it ever get warm enough to thaw glacial acetic acid in Canada?

There does seem to be more EFB lately than we saw 20 years ago, but I also think a lot of what people are calling EFB is actually not. I think it's some kind of idiopathic brood disease. Meaning we don't know the cause. It looks somewhat similar to EFB but not exactly. I think some of the supply places have EFB tests.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

msl said:


> Oh for sure, point was some one with a dipping tank might be a good bit closer and cheaper then some were with a gamma what ever for many people.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> The dipping tank would be nice but pricey and somewhat hazardous. Really, I think flame scorching of boxes, tops, bottoms etc., is relatively easy and effective. The valuable and pricey part is what to do with drawn comb frames. They are not even easy to dispose of without creating further contamination and more work than it is worth.


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## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >In Canada Glacial Acetic seems to be rather difficult for an individual to purchase and have shipped.
> 
> Probably because it freezes at 62 F (16.6 C)... does it ever get warm enough to thaw glacial acetic acid in Canada?
> 
> There does seem to be more EFB lately than we saw 20 years ago, but I also think a lot of what people are calling EFB is actually not. I think it's some kind of idiopathic brood disease. Meaning we don't know the cause. It looks somewhat similar to EFB but not exactly. I think some of the supply places have EFB tests.



We see it somewhat regularly. We have tested some and about 3/4 of what I visually identify tests positive responds to antibiotics, returns regularly and infects other colonies when frames are spread. About half or more of those who show it in the late winter or summer can be treated with otc, recover and produce the next season. About half the time it will show up again in those colonies. If i stopped using otc preventatively I figure we would need to shut down 20% of our colonies by mid april. The "shook swarm method" works about half the time with these colonies. For me it is probably either use otc or destroy infected colonies. I suppose with a little more work I could start enough on new equipment to replace the infected ones each year. May be the same situation as folks with afb which I have never seen.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Tim B;

A whole lot in your post echoes my present experience. I wont be repopulating anything now except scorched boxes and new bare foundation frames.

I have asked a few times and no takers about whether contaminated bees and comb is the only natural repository of the bacteria or whether it can be in soil and ditches in the yard and surroundings. I have not come up with anything written about it either.

Thoughts, anyone?


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## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

crofter said:


> Tim B;
> 
> A whole lot in your post echoes my present experience. I wont be repopulating anything now except scorched boxes and new bare foundation frames.
> 
> ...


Retail information on how long the bacteria persists on wood, wax, pollen and what other potential reservoirs doesn't seem to be available. I saw some research from the early 20th century that suggested that it could live 18 months on wax but that's all I have been able to find. There is also not a lot of information on what will kill it. For instance, would be spraying clorox on frames and hives be enough? The researchers need to be pushed on this because in the absence of preventative otc treatments this is going to become a serious problem for sideliners who have trouble getting someone to write prescriptions.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

crofter said:


> Tim B;
> 
> A whole lot in your post echoes my present experience. I wont be repopulating anything now except scorched boxes and new bare foundation frames.
> 
> ...


Since research shows the bacteria can lay dormant for many months, it's safe to assume it can also do so in other environments, even soil. I agree we need much more research on what can kill the different stages of the bacteria to help prevent the spread. OTC only treats the problem in hopes the bees can manage it after that - but does not "cure" the issue - being levels of EFB in the hive.

I run foundationless so I've also resorted to scorching the frames after cutting out the wax to be melted or burned. I have an old deep that has become my "burning box". I'll put 5 frames in the box and use my garden torch to blacken in, then slide another one over and repeat. These torches are serious business and can turn wood bright red within seconds.

Also, I'm finding the bees really take to the burned wood very well...probably something about them preferring hollowed out trees, most likely by fire.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

That is an interesting thought of stripping the comb and foundation from frames and then thoroughly scorching and run them foundationless. It would be a cheap way to test for reoccurrence with out risking the price of all new frames and foundation. If they draw them a bit screwy, but healthy, they can be replaced later. Thanks for that idea.

Somewhere in my reading I came across some info on how difficult it is to culture melissococcus plutons bacteria in the lab. Apparently the necessary conditions are highly specific. Some particular mineral salt levels being one; perhaps potassium. That is hard to resolve with how easy it seems in some conditions to re establish itself.


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

crofter said:


> That is an interesting thought of stripping the comb and foundation from frames and then thoroughly scorching and run them foundationless. It would be a cheap way to test for reoccurrence with out risking the price of all new frames and foundation. If they draw them a bit screwy, but healthy, they can be replaced later. Thanks for that idea.
> 
> Somewhere in my reading I came across some info on how difficult it is to culture melissococcus plutons bacteria in the lab. Apparently the necessary conditions are highly specific. Some particular mineral salt levels being one; perhaps potassium. That is hard to resolve with how easy it seems in some conditions to re establish itself.


I don't run foundation anyway. I just cut out the comb and scorch the frames. I can then reuse them in my existing hives. I usually place one between two drawn out combs to make sure everything is super straight - but have run up to 3 in a row without much issue. Unlike many, I've never had much luck starting with 100% foundationless and have been able to get rid of all my foundation over the years.


I did two slips out of my hive that's never shown a single sign of EFB. I'm hoping by spreading those genetics through my yard I'll be able to breed my way out of the issue - which is usually the best answer for most things bees. My closest neighbor has had their bees for many years and also never had an issue. I waited until she confirmed she had drones before splitting. Let's hope I never see it again!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I agree that putting in 100% foundationless frames would be a mess :no: If you were doing it in the fashion of a double shakedown though, the first several days being a purge of the bees gut, what the drawn comb looked like would not matter if it was to be remelted anyways. I have done some foundationless in the past but only for grafting comb or drone culling purposes.

My bees were practically bomb proof for 5+ years! Then one winter I had one nuc peter out about this time of year. Definitely not bomb proof now; more like a war zone!


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

crofter said:


> I agree that putting in 100% foundationless frames would be a mess :no: If you were doing it in the fashion of a double shakedown though, the first several days being a purge of the bees gut, what the drawn comb looked like would not matter if it was to be remelted anyways. I have done some foundationless in the past but only for grafting comb or drone culling purposes.
> 
> My bees were practically bomb proof for 5+ years! Then one winter I had one nuc peter out about this time of year. Definitely not bomb proof now; more like a war zone!


True. My EFB has always been very small and easily "curable". If you did a full shakeout you'd have to think about what you're going to put them into.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

crofter said:


> In Canada Glacial Acetic seems to be rather difficult for an individual to purchase and have shipped.


here is some info on bee-l that might help you find some in canada, I didn't go to the links and look at them though

https://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1903&L=BEE-L&P=124751

https://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1903&L=BEE-L&P=122216


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Thanks for the links; I will have a look through them to see if there are sources for the acetic acid. Several that I contacted last year would not ship to an individual. Liability issues I think.


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## Nhaupt2 (May 31, 2016)

Has there been any studies into the efficacy of acetic acid on efb? I was under the impression that it didn't work, and was used mainly for cleaning up nosema.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

crofter said:


> Thanks for the links; I will have a look through them to see if there are sources for the acetic acid. Several that I contacted last year would not ship to an individual. Liability issues I think.


in one of the videos, a person ask where to get it Ontario here is his response.


> Hi Jeff
> Send me an email [email protected] and I'll forward our source. You should ask Dancing Bee to carry it. ( I will too) I think I overstated things in the video. Acteic acid applied in controlled conditions kills MOST spores. Even if it doesn't kill all spores it can be very beneficial.﻿


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Nhaupt2 said:


> Has there been any studies into the efficacy of acetic acid on efb? I was under the impression that it didn't work, and was used mainly for cleaning up nosema.


I have some frames in storage that are badly soiled; possibly both efb and nosema. Some info points to 18 month survival of efb in bee bread / pollen and I doubt the acetic acid fumes would get to that. Was thinking that the acetic acid exposure might lessen the load for the bees to contend with when / if I repopulate those frames.



wildbranch2007 said:


> in one of the videos, a person ask where to get it Ontario here is his response.


I sent off an email to Paul Kelley re. a source for concentrated acetic which they use in their fumigation process.

Thanks


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Well, regarding n. cerana we can all do what Randy O. just recommended on Bee-l regarding n. cerana, “screw ‘em if they can’t handle the spores let them die”!


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Cloverdale said:


> Well, regarding n. cerana we can all do what Randy O. just recommended on Bee-l regarding n. cerana, “screw ‘em if they can’t handle the spores let them die”!


funny I was going to copy it over here and never got around to it, he's 100% correct for his climate, but not so much in colder climates, it can be a lot more deadly, problem is not much you can do about it. I have always had low counts back from BVS for nosema, my assumption has always been, it's because we get such good pollen flows, my counts were low even during the previous drought we had.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Cloverdale said:


> Well, regarding n. cerana we can all do what Randy O. just recommended on Bee-l regarding n. cerana, “screw ‘em if they can’t handle the spores let them die”!


I agree with Randy in his climate, I think it's a worse problem in our cold climate. I have never got a high number back from BVS spring or fall for nosema, so if I had to guess, and I do have to guess, because we normally get good pollen flows all summer, we luck out. Mine were low even in the drought a few years ago, so I also have to guess the drought may cut down on the amount of pollen but not necessarily the quality. I think you said you were going to send out a sample to BVS this spring, if that hive is short of pollen would be interesting to see what your nosema counts are. this is the third time typing this keep getting data base errors, but you don't have to beat me with a stick this time I'm copying it first, well one of them showed up while I was typing this one, this system is getting really unstable.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I am just counting off 5 months that my bees have been unable to fly (return flights anyways) that is not something that happens in Randy's climate. The winter before this one was the first time I noticed any great amount of pooped up frames along with the colonies that did not get going in the spring. I did not know yet that efb also had its foot in the door. I had an inspection in June last year to certify for bee sales and the inspector said it was just normal. He did not see the efb either.

I will have to study up on the connection between Nosema C. and lack of pollen. Being that we get little fall flow and winter stores consist in a large part of capped sugar syrup the colony could be quite pollen starved when they move up into stores.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Environment with varying degrees plays the biggest part in how bad this disease can be. Australia has one coast that never gets EFB while the other gets it bad enough they burn apiaries. 

Now if you're unlucky to be to be in an area that is advantageous for EFB other factors come into play; queen tolerance, how big the hive or split, nectar/pollen dearth, long winter later spring...

If my experience a shook swarm by itself never works, the bees carry it with them in their gut and it comes back every time. In those studies you are more likely to get rid of AFB than EFB with shook swarm. In another study antibiotics had a 21% chance of reoccurrence, antibiotic with shook swarm had a 4% reoccurrence. 

Acetic acid does work on empty comb. It is also good for keeping pest out of comb for storage. 

Long term storage of equipment of 18 month, longer for bee bread. No need to burn anything just store it. 

Refrigeration prolongs the disease, might keep this in mind for outdoor storage and adjust your storage time. 

Rendered wax is completely safe. 

Small hives and new splits are very susceptible. Amount of nurse bees per larva can play a part, fewer nurse bees enables the disease to overwhelm a hive.

EOs especially the two added to HBH; LGO and Spearmint along with thyme will increase both the susceptibility and the severity of EFB among other diseases if fed to bees.

Mites have nothing to do with EFB.

This book is very informative along with good solid facts. After all Dr. White was the one that identified it. To date there is not one fact in his book I have been able to disprove. And it's almost a 100 years old.
If you have not read this it's a must read!!!

https://books.google.com/books?hl=e...epage&q=european foulbrood resistance&f=false

Food grade acetic acid
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?330726-acetic-acid-fumigation-for-storage-of-wet-comb

Links
https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...-foul-brood-Parasitic-mite-syndrome-Snotbrood

shook swarm;
https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?346729-Brown-brood-dead-bees&p=1657455#post1657455


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Excellent info Flower. Thanks for posting. J


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

Definitely good info.

Also confirms my suspicion that EOs were playing a part in it. As said before, likely from weakening the bees natural gut flora allowing EFB to take over.

I have not used any EOs this year and instead have been adding a capsule of probiotics to a gallon of feed - allowing good bacteria to flood out the bad.

So far, not a single sign of the disease but am keeping a very close eye.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Thanks Fivej and mtnmyke HTH

What kind of probiotics are you using?


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## mtnmyke (Apr 27, 2017)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Thanks Fivej and mtnmyke HTH
> 
> What kind of probiotics are you using?


I was using the Pro DFM from Mann Lake since they had a killer deal on it in store, when I was in the area.

However, after reading the listed strains it's really no different than the ones I buy at Costco. When I ran out of the DFM I just started opening the tablets. I grind up sugar in a blender and then hand mix in the probiotic and just put a tablespoon or so on top of the bars. They immediately start licking it up.

I did put it in their feed in the early spring, but they are no longer taking feed so to keep a constant supply in the hive - the dry sugar method is necessary.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

this thread came to my attention today and i realized i had missed it. 

lots of good info here.


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## Alram (Jun 8, 2019)

Cloverdale said:


> Also, most all hives have AFB spores mostly in the honey, and from the above mentioned video, have CBPV in most hives too. It is stressors to the hive/bees that start these pathogens up.


Wait what? Most hives have AFB spores? I have never heard this before. Can you give me some references? I would like to read more about this.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Alram said:


> Wait what? Most hives have AFB spores? I have never heard this before. Can you give me some references? I would like to read more about this.


I will find some references. I do know that Roger Morse of Cornell U. would buy local honey when traveling and test for AFB spores in the honey, which he found. Deb


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

Alram said:


> Wait what? Most hives have AFB spores? I have never heard this before. Can you give me some references? I would like to read more about this.


OIE Terrestrial Manual 2014 CHAPTER 2.2.2.
AMERICAN FOULBROOD OF HONEY BEES

The spores are extremely heat stable and resistant to chemical agents. Only spores are capable of inducing the infection. The infection can be transmitted to larvae by nurse bees or by spores remaining at the base of a brood cell. Although the larval stages of worker bees, drones and queens are susceptible to infection, infected queens and drone larvae are rarely seen under natural conditions. The susceptibility of larvae to AFB disease decreases with increasing age (Woodrow, 1941); larvae cannot be infected later than 53 hours after the egg has hatched. The mean infective dose (LD50= spore dose at which 50% of the larvae are killed) needed to initiate infection, though very variable, is 8.49 ± 1.49 spores in 24–28 hour-old bee larvae (Hansen & Brødsgaard, 1999). Exchanging combs containing the remains of diseased brood is the most common way of spreading the disease from colony to colony. In addition, feeding or robbing of spore-laden honey or bee bread, package bees and the introduction of queens from infected colonies can also spread the disease. Wax contaminated with the spores of P. larvae, used in the production of comb foundations, can also spread the disease if not properly treated (120°C for 30 minutes at 1 bar). The early detection of AFB helps to prevent further spread.

http://www.agriculture.pa.gov/Prote.../Documents/American Foulbrood Prevention.docx

The disease can spread rapidly throughout the hive. AFB spores are spread by the house bees as they clean cells, removing dead larvae. The house bees then contaminate brood food with AFB spores. In addition, if the dead larvae dry out, a hard brittle dark scale will form which will lie along the lower walls of the cell. This spore contaminated scale is difficult for house bees to remove. If nectar is stored in these contaminated cells, it will be infected with viable spores and soon the brood chamber, as well as the rest hive, can become filled with AFB spores. As the colony weakens from the AFB infection, robber bees may enter and take contaminated honey back to their hives thereby spreading the disease to other colonies and apiaries. Beekeepers also may spread disease by moving equipment (frames or supers) from contaminated hives to healthy ones.

Dr Eric Mussen U of CA Davis

American foulbrood (AFB) is a highly contagious bacterial disease of honey bee larvae. Diseased colonies usually die. The unprotected, spore-contaminated nectar, honey, and pollen stores of the diseased colony are robbed by healthy colonies within flight distance, bringing inoculum to the next colonies. There is no method by which your bees can be prevented from robbing a dying or dead colony.

Your hive or apiary doesn’t have to have an active infection to have AFB spores in the hive, which the spores are usually in the honey in a non-vegatative state. The spores do not affect adult bees, and foragers can bring the spores into a healthy hive in nectar or robbed honey. In NYS the whole hive needs to be burned including honey supers.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Just an interesting portion from this site.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5619233/



> Based on a qPCR analysis of colonies exhibiting clinical signs of EFB, bees collected from brood nests were found to harbor an approximately 20-fold higher _M. plutonius_ load than bees from flight entrances (Roetschi et al., 2008). However, this finding obtained by the analysis of 100 bees per sample has not been repeated (Forsgren et al., 2013). Through hemi-nested PCR, Belloy et al. (2007) identified honeybees carrying _M. plutonius_ in more than 90% of colonies without EFB symptoms within EFB symptomatic apiaries. Moreover, bees carrying _M. plutonius_ were found in approximately 30% of colonies in apiaries without EFB symptoms located near apiaries with clinical symptoms of EFB (Belloy et al., 2007). The number of _M. plutonius_ cells in adult bees varies, but bees from asymptomatic colonies in EFB-diseased apiaries are at higher risk of disease development (Budge et al., 2010). A metatranscriptomic approach has been used to analyze the microbial community associated with honeybees, revealing the suitability of this


To me, the point is that it can be in a non-symptom hive. One study infected the hives with afb and not all became symptomatic. 

One place had not had an out break for 15 years of efb and then had a bad year.

It is very hare to make heads or tales or even have the time to find all the studies and read them good enough to have much of an understanding. Most of them are written in a fashion that take a higher education then I have to be able understand them.
Cheers
gww


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

KevinWI said:


> Doing shook swarms have been shown to be HIGHLY successful in Europe to solve the EFB problem. I made a shook swarm funnel and box in part to deal with this should it arise.


Kevin are you still making pouches? Deb


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