# What if you just left the bee's alone...



## Scut Farkas (Jun 7, 2007)

if you had bee's in a semi-natural hive (I know that is an oxymoron) such as a top bar hive and you just did minimal maintenance, how would they do? Minimal maintenance being - changing the distance of the follower board, changing the entrance size with season or to prevent robbing - etc. And this is in reference to a hobbiest, not a commercial bee keeper who has a profit motivation.

I read about people killing drone brood to stop mites, and then I read that having a lot of drone brood will slow the spread of AHB.

I read about people using pollne traps to take pollen from the bees - only to feed it back to them later.

I read about people treating for mites with poisons which in effect promotes the survival of bee's who can't beat the mites through their own mechanism.

I read about a thousand and one interventions. Bee's have been on this planet for a few millenia and I have to think that they know how to do what is best for them and the best thing we can do, for the most part, is just get out of the way.

Does this make sense, or am I totally out in left field.


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## Apuuli (May 17, 2006)

*the birds and the bees*

You could just get out of the way. All colonies would eventually die, but enough would throw enough swarms to balance that out. Overall populations would vary from year to year but for the most part the bees would probably do fine. They'd probably do better because they wouldn't be transported to new climates and new pests and diseases would most likely spread only slowly (if at all) from their native ranges.

But here's the problem: Most people, even hobbyists, don't keep bees for the bees' sake. They keep them for honey, wax, and propolis production, pollination services, and fun. Bees can do fine on their own but we have to intervene (even with just a torch and an axe) to get these products. When one starts actually keeping bees, then most of the interventions are to keep the colonies from dying out and to maximize the production of whatever product one is interested in. Healthy colonies produce more so it's in the beekeeper's interest to do many things in the bees' best interest, but stealing most of their food stores every year is not.

Think of it like this. Even a hobbyist (which I am) expects honey from their hives. I have no problem putting up bird houses for wild birds to use or leaving a hollow tree for wild bees to use, but when I'm managing and "keeping" a bird, I expect eggs on my table, and when I'm keeping bees I expect honey. So I manage, with varying success, primarily to keep the bees alive, strong, and "happy" (not absconding), but secondarily to get honey, wax, and propolis. (If I managed for honey first, I'd rob them to death every year.)

If someone wants a bee colony on their property, they could make appropriate hollows for nests and just hope a swarm moves in and never rob or manage them. Maybe that's the next big thing for the garden centers to sell next to their bird nest boxes and bat boxes: bee boxes!


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## Scut Farkas (Jun 7, 2007)

I understand that some managment is needed - the HIVE after all is not their natural environ. Helping them get through winter by building a sturdy box with no holes and providing ventilation are just ways we try to imitate the natuarl bee habitat. 

But sometimes I think we get carried away with doing something just to be doing something. Half the time I think the bee's survive and prosper in spite of our interventions.

By the way, has anyone ever put pencil to paper to figure out the following...

on the deficit side of the ledger....

Cost of sugar
Cost of feeders
Cost of energ to make sugar water
Cost of time to make and deliver sugar water

on the positive side of the ledger...
Value of extra honey gained by feeding...
Value of any bees that would have otherwise died...

I'm as new as new can be, so I have WIDE open eyes and I was suprised that beeks spend time, money and effort to feed established bee hives when the bee's probably would have been just fine if the beek had just left them more honey.

I bow to experience, but I'm just telling what my initial impressions are. Impressions unadultered by experience and barely tainted by knowledge.


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## Apuuli (May 17, 2006)

My experience with bees is at such a low level it wouldn't be possible for anyone to bow to it! 

I'm sure the successful sideliners and commercial people have figured out exactly how much everything costs and what the profit margin is, otherwise they wouldn't be successful.

I know that my bees have certainly survived sometimes in spite of what I did (including leaving them alone for long periods of time).

I, personally, try to minimally manage my hives. Mostly what I do is monitoring. However, I do try to keep them in line and focused on what is important: straight comb and pure liquid gold! I don't have the capacity to deal with too much honey anyway.

Some people manage bees a little like pets, enjoying the hive as much as the honey, and some people manage bees like livestock and livelihood. (Although, come to think of it, people of certain cultures tend to treat their cattle with more love and attention than most pets receive...)


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## kc in wv (Feb 1, 2006)

As for your question concerning just leaving them alone. I spoke with Rick Fell, the apiary researcher at Virginia Tech, a few years ago about the honey bee population. He said that since the Varroa mite was first discovered in Virginia in the 80's the bee population of the state has been reduced by 80%. That fact tells that the honey bee has not been able to survive without man's intervention. Yes they are showing more tolerance for the mites and it is reported that the mites are adapting so they will not wipe out their host. But what if the honey bee species was totally destroyed before they or the mite learned to adapt? We brought the mite to the EHB why not help them learn to survive? 

During this time there has been lots of traits in the species that are lost. When I first started beekeeping buckfast was (to us) an exotic bee being developed by Brother Abbott and promoted here in the US by Charles Mraz. Have you ever heard of the Midnight or the Starline bee? Both were being promoted by a researcher at that time period.

I am just speaking from my own experience on sugar feeding. In today's beekeeping world it is harder to keep bee's going. I try to have my hives with enough honey stores to make it through the winter. The ones that do not, get a good feeding to bring up them up to the level needed. One thing I feel helps them survive the winter is a light mixture (1:1) of sugar water late in the season to promote brood rearing. Then switch to a 2:1 feeding for stores. It has worked for me. 

But, then every area has its own characteristics that need to be adapted to. Here we have a killing frost normally around the middle of October followed with a warm up that sometimes last till late November.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

They would proably do ok, until a major stress such as to high a mite load wiped them out. You could do the minimum things such as you are referring to, and have a very strong hive, or a dead hive, just depends on what you do, and when you do it.

I find it too hard *not* to meddle....and I think alot of other beekeeps are the same way. We *want* to know what they are up to in that little box they call home.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Mine get pretty minimal management except when I'm splitting or drawing comb. I think they do better when I leave them alone to a large extent.


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## cdanderson (May 26, 2007)

I'm sure we may bother them too much but...

my 81 year old father in law left his bees alone... they all died.


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## paintingpreacher (Jul 29, 2006)

*Just Left Alone*

Have a friend who has two hives. He called me and ask if I knew where he could get a bottom for one of his hives. I told him I would bring him one and put it on for him. I saw him last week and ask how long he's had the hives. He said one he's had for 10-12 years. He never touches them, never removed any honey are anything. They are in 3 medium boxes. Amazing! They have survived this long JUST LEFT ALONE.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The feral bees around here seem to be doing well. Mine are not treated and are doing well. I've found hives that have not been touched for years that are doing well. Of course there are also hives that have not been touched that have died and are full of wax moth webs...


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

You can put a pencil to the cost of sugar, time and energy mixing, etc., against the benefits of keeping bees alive, the extra productivity, etc. You could even keep track of your time as if you were being paid an hourly wage. I doubt the monetary aspect would be positive.

But for me, it's not a matter of dollars and cents, it is an incredibly satisfying feeling I get when I work my bees. It's that "priceless" component of the credit card commercials.

Financially, the extra attention may work out and sometimes it won't. Despite my best efforts, I have had bees that died, and often died after consuming a bunch of syrup!

I figure for this kind of enjoyment, I'd gladly pay to work my bees. When I look at the costs, yeah, I'm probably money behind.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Cyndi (Apr 26, 2005)

I once had a call from my cousin who bought some property with 2 bee hives on it. She said the man died several years ago and that the hives had not been touched for years. Okay, so I went there and found 1 dead out, and 1 hive that was very much alive. It was in May, in middle Ga. The hive had a super slap full of honey and 2 deeps FULL of bees. I wanted to bring them all to North Carolina. These were some really gentle bees.

Anyway, my cousin was one of those people that had to many fires in her pot. Claimed she was going to take up beekeeping and wanted to keep them. I was like, whatever. I don't think she ever did anything with those bees and it was such a shame too.


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## Sarge (Jun 26, 2006)

Based on the volume of bee swarms I get called on, and the numbers of feral bee trees I know of, Indiana averages between 25% and 50% die off every winter.
Over the last few years the numbers have been steady, with growth in spring and summer and loss every winter.
There are bee trees that have been in place for decades, and some that seem to be occupied every other year or so.
If beekeepers have a fault it is ego. Far too many have grown to believe that it is they and their actions that keep bees alive today. Everything has a fixed life. And the box the hive lives in is a dead thing.
Is a hive the same hive if the queen is replaced? Or does it start life anew with the new queen? When WE kill the queen and chose a successor, we end the bloodline and choose another. In nature the supercedure is done through a daughter and the line runs on.
In all truth our managed hives are seldom more than a year or two old. How then can we claim to extend their lives when they are replaced at our whim?


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## EKW (Feb 2, 2005)

Scut- when I started keeping bees I never pulled all the honey, believing that the bees would do better eating honey than sugar- or corn syrup. My definition of SURPLUS was what was in excess of the amount needed by the bees to overwinter, NOT all the honey that they stored.

A few years later I became friends with some of the commercial and sideline beekeepers in our area. They went to great pains to explain to me that I was leaving 82 cent a pound honey on when I could sell it and feed 17 cent a pound HFCS and pocket the difference (minus, of course, the fuel, labor, and time involved in actually feeding the bees with the HFCS). Actually, their numbers were way off, because I always bottled and sold all of my table grade honey for $3.50-4.00 pound. I kept doing it my way until I started doing pollination, at which time the logistics involved dictated that we pull honey before moving the bees. Oftentimes the bees were in locations where there was virtually no nectar, and I did wind up feeding HFCS at those times. But, I was never as happy with the condition of my bees.

I went back to my old way of managing the bees and was much happier. I ran the numbers backwards, sideways, and inside out at the time. It is difficult to draw conclusions with so many variables, but I decided that, overall, I come out ahead doing it my way. I have a running argument with one of my commercial beekeeper friends about the finances of beekeeping. I argue that by having fewer hives, managing them intensively, producing higher quality honey, using fewer chemicals to treat the hives, bottling my honey, and selling it direct at retail prices or better, I come out way ahead in the end. I also have much less $$$ invested in equipment, and less to maintain it all. He disagrees and thinks I'm an idiot, lol. On the other hand, he rents a house from me and is slowly going broke. Right now he is 18 months behind on his rent. I rest my case, lol.


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## Scut Farkas (Jun 7, 2007)

EKW said:


> He disagrees and thinks I'm an idiot, lol. On the other hand, he rents a house from me and is slowly going broke. Right now he is 18 months behind on his rent. I rest my case, lol.


Ha ha - I think that was the sound of the "last laugh" that you just laughed. Not that you wish your friend ill, but the a lesson earned is truly a lesson learned. I'm just a wannabe hobbyist (have to sell my house and move first!), but I want to do it right. 

I've already settled on doing a TBH. I've already decided to use no chemicals. Powdered sugar of FGMO might happen, but that's about it. I'm pretty sure I'm going to use Russian bees. And I don't think I'm going to mess with the bee's any more than absolutely necessary. I'll add a window to the side of my TBH so I can enjoy the bee's without constantly interrupting them. I'm not going to kill drone brood, I'm not going to restrict the movement of the queen. I'm just going to make sure they have a solid, well ventilated hive and let them do the rest. Passive help such a screened bottom board will be the most I want to get into their business. I guess some here will call me a bee haver and not a bee keeper - but it's just an experiment for awhile.

If I get honey, great, if not - oh well. If the bee's thrive, great I'll build more hives, if not - I'll start over with lessons learned.


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## DaveWilliamsTX (Aug 16, 2007)

*Observation window*

I would meddle with them constantly if I hadn't decided to put a hive-long observation window on one side of my top bar hive - if I hadn't, I'd be in there every day poking around. Now I can just open 'er up and take a peek.

I do tend to agree with the KISS method (Keep It Simple, Stupid). If you're having to nurse your bees along every year, perhaps its time to consider what about the situation they are in makes them a bad fit for the hive/environment they are struggling with. Not enough honey to survive a long winter? Take less, or get bees that are more adapted to the cold climate. Mites eating them up? Let the colonies tough it out though the hard times, and a stronger breed emerges (or, if none of them make it, you order bees that groom more frequently). 

Striving to understand what breed of bee will do well in your hive type at your geographical location will allow you to use the characteristics of the bees in your favor, and let them do the work FOR you. So often we fight nature when it has the ability to do so much of the work for us.


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