# What Bees "Naturally do in the Wild"



## hemichuck (Oct 27, 2009)

I am not a scientist or entemologist (or for that matter nobody important)but I can tell you from experience in doing bee removals and cutouts that bees dont have any problem at all moving horizontally. I have pulled bees from overhangs in buildings and houses that have gone 8 to 10 feet horizontally between floor joists.I've seen them go into the tops of hives and work down and from the bottom and work up and I have seen them go into an opening and walk through several feet of obstacles to get into a hive between floor joists between the first and second floor(like to never figured out which way to go in after them) So my answer would be that bees do things in the wild the same way they do them in our hives which is any old way that they want to.


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## hemichuck (Oct 27, 2009)

By the way, another observation that I have made is that bees dont require much in the way of an entrance to build a hive either.I've opened up buildings that had a 3/8 inch round opening and found 200 pounds of honey and 40,000+ bees. That just tells me that landing boards are not needed and are just a luxury not to mention a place for pests to enter a hive. Bees dont seem to have a preference between vertical or horizontal and many times enter from the bottom of an overhang.


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## wildbeekeeper (Jul 3, 2010)

in respect to horizontal movement, I believe it has alot to do with where geographically they are located AND what their overwintering temps are. I too do removals from buildings and find that the bees have no issues moving horizontally in a floor...HOWEVER...put those same bees in a TBH, with MUCH LESS insulation than the building they were in provided and they have difficulty. TBH are great in southern environments, but can be difficult to manage and keep alive through a hard northern winter...yes it can be done, but not as effectively. How many TBH do you see in Africa vs Europe and north. Same in US... more can be found in the southern states with milder winters than PA, MI, WI, NY etc etc.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

wildbeekeeper said:


> TBH are great in southern environments, but can be difficult to manage and keep alive through a hard northern winter...yes it can be done, but not as effectively. How many TBH do you see in Africa vs Europe and north. Same in US... more can be found in the southern states with milder winters than PA, MI, WI, NY etc etc.


I don't know of a reliable source of that information, do you? 

You're saying that tbh's can't be wintered as effectively in the north. How do we know that? You ask about the numbers of top bar hives in Africa vs Europe and the north - where do we get accurate numbers for that either? Do you have a reliable source of that data as it relates to top bar hives?

Top bar hives are only recently seeing a sharp rise in popularity in Europe and North America in general. Most areas of "The North" likely haven't even had many experienced beekeepers try them in earnest. So whether they winter as well as other designs or not is just not known. A small number of experienced beekeepers giving them a half-hearted try of a season or two does not conclude much, yet lots of people are already telling everyone who will listen that they don't work.

Not to be disrespectful. I'm sure you're a very experienced beekeeper, but I feel like these blanket statements you're making about top bar hives are similar to what I'm seeing when people make blanket statements about what bees do naturally in the wild. It boils down to hearsay and speculation a lot of the time, and once repeated enough, it becomes commonly-accepted "knowledge". Again, I don't mean to be disrespectful at all, and if you do have solid data somewhere to reference what you're saying, then I'm happy to admit my error. I think we all tend to "quote" a lot of commonly accepted information that we have never really researched or explored much ourselves. A certain amount of that is unavoidable. But when the information being passed was never more than opinion or hearsay to begin with, then it can be damaging.

I know this: I had a terrible load of mite on my bees last fall. I had one full colony and one split, which was quite small. The split died in March. But even with the drastically reduced population, the full colony wintered in the top bar hive and had surplus of honey this season, here in Halifax. How many winters would it take before I had really explored management to the extent that I could say top bar hives winter well here or not?


Adam


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

wildbeekeeper: Interesting observation. As a supplier of horizontal top bar hives, the vast majority of our sales seem to be the northeastern US and California. Where do you get the information on how many horizontal top bar hives there are in various states and countries? Or is it your experience/observation? I'm curious. 

Adam: I'm very interested in a scientific study of this as well. I get hundreds of calls each year for bee removal, and MANY of them are arranged in more of a horizontal fashion than vertical. However, MOST are vertical.

Best,
Matt


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## Beeophyte (Oct 17, 2011)

I am no scientist and really not a beekeeper yet (spring...can't wait till spring). But I am going to make a blanket statement. All beehives are vertical because the bees always build the comb on a vertical axis. It might be 20 combs 6 inches tall or 6 combs 20 inches tall.

Jon


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Beeophyte said:


> ...All beehives are vertical because the bees always build the comb on a vertical axis...
> Jon


Interesting. This is something I've said many times as well. In my own estimation, I would think that bees would see all spaces as vertical, for as you mention, they hang from the ceiling of any space in order to create their vertically-oriented combs. In some spaces, they can a few long ones to accommodate their needs, in others, many short ones.

But the point of this thread goes beyond the question of horizontal or vertical. 

It's about understanding what bees naturally do or tend to do if left to their own devices. And that means that someone has had to go out and repeatedly observe and record things. There has to be a sufficient amount of clear evidence (easily observable, consistently repeatable or scientifically studied and proven) in order for us to say "bees in the wild prefer this or that". I'm fine with homegrown observation, but it has to be easily observable to everyone who gives the situation a good look. If it's not observable, then we need to have the results of studies done in such a way that those results can be trusted as accurate.

Adam


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

What do they naturally do? They do whatever they have to, to survive. As other guys who do cutouts will likely confirm, you'll find bees living in a horizontal space 4 inches high.

But it might be like me when I was a young guy and spent 6 months living in a tent. I survived, but it sure felt good when I moved back into a house.

An issue I've noticed with some TBH's depending on design, is that they'll move all the way out to the edges. But sometimes the bees would rather swarm than store a decent crop of honey in those far away ends. So around here anyway, if a TBH keeper can get 20 or 30 lb's honey from his TBH, he's doing well.

But if you go to a verticle TBH, ie, a Warré, you'll be setting yourself up for a bigger honey harvest.

I'm going to add a disclaimer, I'm only talking about experience from my area. Regional climatic variations can sometimes be the cause of differing opinions between beekeepers, when in fact, they are all correct.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

There is actually a test that can be done to resolve the up/down vs horizontal discussion. Take a small colony and surround it with space from all direction, ie, above, below, and to the side. See what they do.

If all round is just empty, they'll extend their combs downwards, and to the side, as to go up they would have to seperate away from the main cluster to start building from the top, which is why foundationless Warrés have boxes added at the bottom. But add a box on top with foundation, ie, a "bridge" they can start working on without leaving the main cluster, and they will go up. I've seen this in langstroth hives where somebody has piled 3 or 4 boxes onto a weak single box hive. the bees will sometimes build a column going right up the centre of the hive all the way to the top, and outside combs are not being used.

Observe a wild hive in a situation where they have plenty of room, ie, not a 4 inch high space. If they have room to do whatever they want, the honey will mostly be stored at the top. In a horizontal hive they are already at the top, and have to extend sideways. However since their natural inclination is to put honey at the top, that is why commercial beekeepers who live or die by their honey production, add the honey storage boxes on top. It suites the bees inclination, and they will store the honey there. Some other factors can change that though, like the position of the entrance/s. Bees have a natural inclination to store the honey away from the entrance and will typically have the brood nest nearer the entrance and the honey further back.

But bees are adaptable and will make the best of whatever situation they are put in.


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## wildbeekeeper (Jul 3, 2010)

my statements are observations and from talking with other more well traveled and educated folks than myself. Yes there is a surge of interest in Top Bar beekeeping and I believe that its due to them being touted as the more "natural" way to keep bees...and with people generally stearing away from "non-natural" everything (from synthetics and chemical use and organics etc etc), the TBH is attractive to those folks. As far as being more hives in Africa etc... that is the primary hive used over there because it can be made cheaply with scrap wood.... its easy to move with the nomadic apis spp. that they have and utilize. Im certaintly not bashing the TBH, but from all of the experienced and in experienced beeks I have met, the TBH isnt that natural. Yes its been proven that they can be kept in northern climates....the question is, is it really "natural" I know of several beeks whose TB absconded or died out.....while their langstroths did fine. The thing with TBH is that if they were really that easy to manage, then the langstroth would have been replaced years ago. 

Again, Im not bashing the TBH - but my response to the original question of "what bees do naturally in the wild" was just that... my opinion....it wasnt until man started taking down dead hollow trees and building insulated houses that bees began to move horizontally... at least here in the US....who knows what happened in Europe with the native bees there. How many Gum Stumps have you seen in a horizontal position? I just believe that "in the wild" bees naturally move vertical. just my two cents!


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

How many commercial outfits use TBH? Nuff said?


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Should we change the name of this thread to "TBH's vs. Langstroth"?

The fact that commercial outfits don't generally use top bar hives only means that people don't see them as suitable for commercial beekeeping, and the needs of industry (honey and bees for sale, production, mobility and standardization). Top bar enthusiasts often have different interests (honey and bees for personal enjoyment, affordability, DIY, etc.) That doesn't have anything to do with what bees do or don't do by nature. The contrasting of pros and cons of the different hive types is a discussion for a different thread.

I think Langs are a great design, and I think some of the top bar hives are great designs as well. The fact is that they are both responses to a different set of human needs, and they are based on different assessments of the "nature" of bees. 

Within 5 minutes walk of my house, I can find half a dozen horizontal, or angled voids in trees. Tree hollows are not always vertically oriented, and people have been around making buildings and things that bees have taken up residence in for thousands of years as well. There all kinds of natural and man-made cavities in the world, and there have been for a long, long time. And bees have made their homes in all shapes.

From what I can tell, bees "naturally" inhabit both horizontal and vertically oriented cavities if left to their own devices. They seem to live and winter healthy in both. If there's a preference, then I haven't found a source of information that conclusively proves it.

Are there any other things people tend to say that bees "naturally do in the wild" that we can discuss?


Adam


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I have heard of bees moving into a hive all on their own. Does that not make it a completely natural location? at least as much as any other natural location?

My interest is not what bees do naturally, but how they function in a hive of human design.

I seriously think the study of bees in natural conditions is a complete waste of time in regard to how to keep them in hives.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Daniel,
you certainly are entitled to have and voice your opinion, but I wish you would get some bees and some years of experience w/ them.

Our bees are not domesticated. What they do in our hives, their behavior, they also do in "natural" hives, be they trees or walls of buildings. Differences may seem to exist, but basically there is no difference except that we humans put bees in boxes.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Adam,
I think that the previous post on this thread has established that bees will take up residence in any shaped cavity. Having said that I also think that bees will do better when allowed to build to their natural propensity, which I think is vertical. I think that top bar hives are a fad, and if that is what you want to do then it is fine with me. I've watched your posts in the past, and you are an intelligent fellow. So think about the past and the ways that the beekeepers have tried to put them into differient designs. Thru the years they have almost always stayed with the lang. I'm not saying it is perfect, but the bees seem to do better in them with the management technique being the easeist for the beekeeper. So I think that they will do, in the wild or in captivity, whatever is necessary for their survival. I think I'm doing too much thinking!! Good luck!!


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## Beeophyte (Oct 17, 2011)

If I might speak up for the Warré style beekeeping. It isn't so much about the hive as it is the management of the hive. I think it is more natural for the bees because they don't get manipulated nearly as often. I do think that this intrusiveness is disrupting for the bees and sets them back. They very clearly don’t like it because they will try to defend the hive against the beekeeper, particularly if he doesn't use smoke.

Frankly a person could keep Langs in the same style as a Warré and I suspect many do but if you did you would have to let the bees take over management of the hive and it would (to our eyes) be a mess of cross comb etc. What we see as a mess is simply what bees naturally do if left to their own devices.

I don’t think any hive style is more natural than another only the level intrusion from the beekeeper, this is what is unnatural. One might argue that without the intrusion the bees would die, yes that is often true. That is natural, the weak die and the strong live and go on.

Is a Warré hive more natural than a Lang...not overly especially if you use foundationless frames. Is the Warré style of hive management more natural than the 'modern' Lang style of hive management, I believe it is.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

You assume that because I don't have bees myself that I don't have experience. that assumption seems to be nearly universal among this group. I fail to see how possession of bees equates to experience.
Have you or anyone else ever measured the honey production of a natural hive? If so what is it. I suspect it is not anywhere near what the average beekeeper is trying to get this bees to produce. That would be a huge mistake according to "Do what is natural" You should be trying to match the honey production of natural bees if what comes natural is best. A beekeeper is not trying to do one thing that is natural to bees. so what does natural have to do with anything? You do not want natural brood nests, you want maximum brood nests. you do not want natural honey production you want maximum. you do not want natural performance form queens, you do not want anything natural about bees. you want maximized, stream lined, faster, and better. and you want it as conveniently as possible resulting in minimum labor. You also want the bees to remain healthy strong and resilient even though they are constantly being pushed to the limit.
nope I don't see a thing different in what people do with bees in their boxes and what they might be doing naturally. I'm sure bees in nature replace there queen with one from Florida every year also. well maybe the Florida bees do, ya think?


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## Beeophyte (Oct 17, 2011)

Daniel it seems to me that you feel very passionate about this subject. Why don't you find a feral hive and observe it and then let us know what it teaches you. You could maybe get your own bees as well and then you could compare them. It would likely be a learning experience for us all.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> I fail to see how possession of bees equates to experience.


You're kidding, right?


Daniel Y said:


> Have you or anyone else ever measured the honey production of a natural hive?


You're kidding, right?


Daniel Y said:


> You assume ... You do not want natural brood nests... you do not want natural honey production ... you do not want natural performance form queens, you do not want anything natural about bees... you want it as conveniently as possible resulting ... even though they are constantly being pushed to the limit..


Wow. Assumptions all around.


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## Beeophyte (Oct 17, 2011)

Actually Bees and humans could be viewed as symbiotic at this point. We have propagated bees wherever we have spread in the world. It is possible that honey bees might not even exist in the western hemisphere without us. In that respect we have helped the super organism in its' quest to spread and multiply. It should also be pointed out that if the bees were unhappy with the box the humans put them in, they could leave (and sometimes do) anytime the weather conditions favor it.


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## pascopol (Apr 23, 2009)

Reading the headline the first thought is the bees in the wild do whatever they've done in last 100 millions years:

They built the combs in cavity they found, collecting the nectar pollinating flowers, fill up the combs with nectar and honey, raise the brood, and swarm in the spring trying to survive.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Possession of bees does not equate to experience: No it does not. I have never personally owned bees. My experience with bees that other people own goes back to the age of 10. the experience in my family with keeping bees goes back to Dr. Doolittle or further. I only have personal experience with my great grandfather who was 101 years old when he died in 1976.

So the idea that only owning bees will give you experience with them is flawed. I don't claim to have in depth my life depends on it knowledge of bees. Neither do most of the members of this group.

I have been properly chastised for my last post and offer my apology to anyone offended by it.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> . the experience in my family with keeping bees goes back to Dr. Doolittle or further.


Well, if *I* could talk to the animals I *would* have some experience.opcorn:


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## Beeophyte (Oct 17, 2011)

Okay I just had a nutty thought I write it here with great trepidation. Let me preface by saying that I am JUST KIDDING and I mean no offense to any person.

Put yourself in the place of the bees. What if one day a big hive tool came out of the sky and destroyed the Brooklyn Bridge. What if a high-rise apartment building were grasped by massive fingers in Chicago and placed in Rapid City because Rapid City is a weak colony and needs more brood. What if because a couple of people in Petaluma had a nasty bacterial infection and antibiotics began raining from the sky. Langstroth management is very Old Testament!


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Beeophyte,

Your post should remind us that, from the bees perspective, nothing about beekeeping is 'natural'. On the other hand, humans are natural creatures, like all the others. We have it within our nature to care for and exploit other natural creatures for our pleasure and benefit. So in that sense, it's all natural!

My original post was to point out that much is argued around beekeeping equipment and management and much is justified or condemned because of what bees do in nature. And I just wondered how much solid proof we have this nature.

Natural Comb
Natural Cell size
Natural Beekeeping
Natural Reproduction
etc.


As Mark pointed out, the bees are always wild and will adhere to the same nature as feral honeybees, so whatever they want to do - they do - unless manipulated or managed in some way to alter that.

• Bees will raise a lot of drones "by nature". We know that, because we have all observed it repeatedly, and beekeepers have for a long time. Some argue that because it is natural, they should be allowed to do so - others work very hard to suppress that natural tendency.

• Bees will "naturally" choose a cavity of about 40L over other ones if given equal access to both larger and smaller (proven by Tom Seeley) But beekeeping for honey production manipulates them into occupying much larger spaces than that.

• Bees will naturally swarm every spring, as long as they are healthy and strong. We know that, because we have all observed it repeatedly, and people have for a long time. Beekeepers have expended tremendous energy and time to suppress or eliminate swarming.

In the wake of CCD's arrival, there has been perhaps a heightened discussion about what the bees do naturally, and there has been a concentrated re-evaluation of the practices we as beekeepers have come to see as commonplace. Everything is suddenly seemingly suspect. And around every discussion of what we as beekeepers should or should not do, is the claim that "bees naturally" do or want this or that.

And sometimes - like in the case of the horizontal space - the true, natural desires or tendencies of the bees are not conclusively understood, and thus beekeepers are not agreed on "the right" answer. So it seems to me that a deeper understanding of bee behavior would be helpful.

Let's say for instance, that Tom Seeley - renowned Bee Biologist - were to publish an article in which he showed that in repeated tests, where swarms of bees were given equal access to 40L rectangular cavities, but some were oriented horizontally, and some vertically. If his findings showed that bees preferred vertical, then that would have a great potential to strengthen the case for Langstroths and Warré hives over long hives. If his tests showed the reverse, then more people would be inclined to try horizontal beekeeping.

Solid, time-or-scientifically-tested information can go a long way...


Adam


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## Beeophyte (Oct 17, 2011)

> Let's say for instance, that Tom Seeley - renowned Bee Biologist - were to publish an article in which he showed that in repeated tests, where swarms of bees were given equal access to 40L rectangular cavities, but some were oriented horizontally, and some vertically. If his findings showed that bees preferred vertical, then that would have a great potential to strengthen the case for Langstroths and Warré hives over long hives. If his tests showed the reverse, then more people would be inclined to try horizontal beekeeping.


More for people interested in what is best for the bees, but a great many out there are more interested in making profits and thus this would not apply to them. Great idea for an experiment though. I think you would need a massive sampling of hives to make it work. Warré experimented with over 350 hives for over a decade before he designed his hive. Unfortunately I do not see the name Langstroth anyplace in his writing. He mentions Dadant hives often which may be similer, I do not have sufficent experience to say. One thing is certain Langstroth hives were definitely around before the Warré hive by decades.

Back on point Volumetricaly and dimensionally what you describe as being natural is exactly what Warré was trying to accomplish, especially for wintering. which is typically (in France) two boxes (37.8 Liters).


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

The bees can be pushed or manipulated far beyond their natural tendencies and preferences, for all kinds of reasons.

And I'm not here to say where that's right or wrong. We are happy to ignore the bees' nature when it suits us, but will shout about their nature when it's in line with the approach we want to promote!

Seeley is presently focused on exploring the affects of apiaries having many colonies in one area. Bees "naturally" will spread out over a much wider area. I have heard that bee colonies allow drones to freely move between colonies. He expressed to me that he feels that is only a result of beekeeping many colonies close together, and suggests that wouldn't happen much in natural dispersion of colonies. So he is looking at laying out the natural urges of bees to spread out, and exploring how the unnatural congestion of apiaries might be affecting bee health and behavior.

This will no doubt, be very valuable information for us to have. And it could lead to beekeepers changing the way they arrange their apiaries. Who knows?

Adam


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The "drone drift" thing, to me, is a popular myth.

When pollen trapping, the bees go through a mesh on their way into the hive that knocks some of the pollen off their legs for collection by the beekeeper.

But drones can't fit through this mesh so the pollen trap also has a drone escape so that drones inside the hive can get out. But they cannot get back in through the mesh.

There would be some hives with pollen traps, and outside them would sometimes be large amounts of drones trying to get back in, and eventually piles of hundreds of dead drones in front of the hive. This would be even though there were other hives just yards away that the drones could have used.

It was one of the things about pollen trapping I didn't like.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Entomologist, 
From Latin Entos, which means,,,,,,Ah, I forgot
Just to make mention, and I can only speak for Maryland Law, it is illegal to keep, maintain, a hive, where the combs can not be removed and inspected. This was due to AFB and EFB as I recall. You can not keep bees in a skep, empty box, or hollow log. Kinda narrows your choices as far as hive design goes. It would also seem to negate "natural beekeeping". Just some observations


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...there is a good account of a presentation made by Serge Labesque at WAS (written by Larry Conner) about this very topic in the Nov. ABJ....highly recommended reading.

I don't think we need (or should) replicate nature in every way possible....but if we _understand_ what nature is doing (and why and how), we can use this as a baseline against which to evaluate what we are doing differently. Effectively damming a river requires that we understand it's natural course and flow first.

WRT the verticality of hives (specifically Langstroth style), it is a case of "a natural response to an unnatural situation".

If we choose the swarm as the beginning of the cycle, as already mentioned, the bees will tend to choose a smaller cavity than beekeepers want...the goal of the bees is to build up enough to swarm.....the bigger the cavity (especially if combs are being manipulated for the purpose), the longer it will take the bees to fill the cavity, feel crowded, and swarm. Beekeepers are often surprised by swarms that are so late in the season as to virtually doom both parent colony and swarm...there are always individuals that do things out of season (saw a few dandilions the other day), but mostly this is because the beekeeper is doing something to prevent swarming (even the Warre' beekeeper uses a large cavity and seasonal comb harvesting to focus the bees somewhat on producing honey).

A swarm clusters from the top of the cavity and builds a few parallel combs at once, moving down into the cavity as the needs of the colony increase....but they tend not to leave empty comb above them....the put honey at the top, and brood down (building comb as resources allow)..."ideally" going into winter near the bottom of their comb...pollen below, and honey above.....climbing up the comb as they consume.....like a yoyo.

When in nature does a cavity expand ABOVE the established colony....empty space above the already built comb? When does the honey that is stored above get "spun out" leaving empty honey comb above the cluster? When does new empty, or new "damaged" (as in foundation...comb that needs repairing) appear above the colony...or between the colony and its stores?

By using a vertical hive, we can take advantage of this natural behavior...empty comb, especially when placed above the broodnest, compels the bees to fill it....to repair damaged comb (draw foundation) or to configure the hive and its stores as the bees are programmed to do.

I've seen large feral horizontal hives (under trialers in Florida), but I don't have a real feel for this configuration...I expect that extra room does not compel them in same way it does when above the nest, but obviosly they are managed differently...usually without saving the comb.

deknow


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Rick,

True. The same law exists in most places. But there are a lot of hive designs, including the kenyan top bar, the tanzanian, the long hive and even the Warré has a modified version which allows movement of the combs.


Adam


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> The "drone drift" thing, to me, is a popular myth...
> There would be some hives with pollen traps, and outside them would sometimes be large amounts of drones trying to get back in...This would be even though there were other hives just yards away that the drones could have used.


...I'm not sure why the concept of drone drift has to imply that all hives are equally attractive to traveling drones.
When I see a lot of drones in a hive (not brood, but adults), I know something is up...usually cells or a young virgin in the hive.

deknow


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Deknow,

Interesting posts. In the second, you seem to suggest that drones are entering foreign colonies because they recognize the presence of a virgin queen. I had not heard that before from anywhere. I had always thought that drones only encounter the virgin queens from other colonies in the drone congregation areas.

I have long wondered about the true nature and purposes of drones, and just what they're complete value is to a colony. The drones appear to be the least-known of the bees. 

Adam


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Adam,
Agreed. I believe I confused myself as to what the post was really about. Orientation of comb vs direction of build. My bad I need a nap.


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## Lost Bee (Oct 9, 2011)

If only some type of log hive or other natural hive material would be made and placed in a very remote location 
and studied. Unless a wild bee hive could be used. Without any human interference for at least 3 years or more. 
With only remote wire cameras or something like that used to view the bees behavior from time to time. It would 
be nice to see how long the bees would stay in a hive. Would there be bees in there in 5 years from now? It 
would have to be a hive volume larger than a standard commercial hive. I read that honey bees prefer nest cavities 
approximately 45 litres in volume and avoid those smaller than 10 or larger than 100 litres. 

Even if the bees placed inside are domestic it would be nice to see how they perform as ferals for over a period of time.

A scientific wild bee study could help us more than not.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

There really isn't any particular difference between "domestic" and "wild or "feral" honeybees, is there? They're all wild, and their either kept or their not. Isn't that true?

Adam


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes Adam, that's true.

Lost Bee,
Log gums were quite common in some parts of the rural US at one time. There was a yard of a number of them in Holmes Co, OH back in the mid-1980s that I knew of, but did not inspect because that were uninspectable.


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## Lost Bee (Oct 9, 2011)

Still, I'm sure bees without living on their own behave
a little differently than bees in yours or another beekepers hive.
It's not someone would be selecting for gentle traits,etc. anymore. 
I wonder if bees got larger on their own or if man had anything to 
do with it with the bigger comb size,etc.

Weren't log gum manipulated by men though?

I guess cows are wild too.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I'm aware of a hollow brick column under a house overhang that has had bees continuously for at least 20 yrs.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Lost Bee said:


> Still, I'm sure bees without living on their own behave
> a little differently than bees in yours or another beekepers hive.
> ....I guess cows are wild too.


That's just it. They won't behave any differently. They just won't get manipulated by someone.

I don't think cows are wild at all. They only live under the care of humans, and there aren't any wild ones that I know of. You don't see wild dairy cattle roaming around the mountains, or Angus cattle out on their own. There are likely wild relatives (like turkeys have both domesticated and wild strains). But honeybees are just one thing with all the mixed up genetics and variations. Feral or not, they're all pretty much the same.

Adam


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Lost Bee said:


> Weren't log gum manipulated by men though?
> 
> I guess cows are wild too.


Mannipulated by men? I don't know how, other than moving them from the forest to trhe back yard and then some how harvesting honey from them.

Wild cows are wild, sure. But domesticated cows aren't truely wild, though they may act wild at times. Domestication is much more than taming something which is wild.

We, humans, have learned how to work w/ our wild honeybees, but we have not domesticated them in the same manner as we have dogs, horses and cattle. We have tamed elephants, but there is not a strain of domesticated elephant.


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## Lost Bee (Oct 9, 2011)

"Aurochs" the ancestor of domestic cattle, was a type of 
large wild cattle which inhabited Europe, Asia and North 
Africa, but is now extinct; it survived in Europe until 1627.

The "Heck Cattle they are a hardy breed of cattle. They are 
the result of an attempt to breed back the aurochs, which became 
extinct in 1627, from modern aurochs-derived cattle. Controversy 
as to success of the program and techniques used specifically 
revolve around genetics, behavior, biology and the still 
scientifically debated question of whether the aurochs has 
"returned" in any form whatsoever, or has been mimicked.
In Oostvaardersplassen in Flevoland near Lelystad 
(Netherlands), there are about 600 Heck cattle freely 
roaming without human interference

"Chillingham Cattle" are a breed of cattle that live in a 
large enclosed park at Chillingham Castle, Northumberland, 
England. This rare breed consists of about 90 animals in 
Chillingham, which inhabit a very large park that has 
existed since the Middle AgesThe herd has remained 
remarkably genetically isolated for hundreds of years, 
surviving despite inbreeding depression due to the 
small population. There is also a small reserve herd of 
about 20 animals located on Crown Estate land near 
Fochabers, North East Scotland.

It's too bad man wiped out the "Aurochs". If you read 
up on them they do seem like they were a fascinating 
animal of sorts. 

There you go a some wild cows found. 

Ok,let's get back to honey bees. I'm sorry I started 
a MAD COW Fest. I'll try not to have a cow again.


I think I found what makes the most sense :

Domestication takes centuries:
Wild animals are not domesticated simply by being 
captive born or hand-raised. It's a different story 
with dogs and cats, who have been domesticated by 
selective breeding for desired traits over thousands 
of years. These special animal companions depend on 
humans for food, shelter, veterinary care, and affection. 
Wild animals, by nature, are self-sufficient and fare 
best without our interference. The instinctive behavior 
of these animals makes them unsuitable as pets.

To sum all of my posts in this thread: I was just trying 
to say that bees without interference from man must behave
a litlle differently. I would like to see a person walk up
a bee nest in africa or northern europe without any 
protection and tell me they are like the tamer bees at home. 
While trying to take a few combs away from the nest. 
I'm sure you would only try it once.LOL


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

deleted


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Check out Tom Seeley's Honeybee Democracy. Lots to learn.


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## beeG (Jun 18, 2011)

Lost Bee;722617Wild animals said:


> This is where truth is replaced by emotional garbage.
> 
> Without humans many wild animals would already be gone for ever. Nature is not cuddly, all divine, and fair. It is harsh, unforgiving, unfair, and brutal. I think too many city people are getting too wrapped up in defining the term natural. I am all for saving our natural resources. And stopping destruction of unique habitats. But by god this gets to the point of beating a dead horse, and getting into opposite extremes .
> 
> ...


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Check out Tom Seeley's Honeybee Democracy. Lots to learn.


Yelp, that's one on my short list.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Intheswamp said:


> Yelp, that's one on my short list.


Ok, Mark, it's been in my shopping cart so long the pages are probably starting to yellow...I clicked the button just then. And my "B" library grows... 

Ed


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Intheswamp,

If you think you read a lot after 5 months, get back to us in 5 years. I started obsessing over honeybees when I was about 9 or 10, then got back into it again heavily in 2009, and what I have learned is that there is a great deal to learn. As Mark suggests, Seeley is the one to read on the swarming urge. According to him, a colony on combs in the open, as you illustrate in the third example has essentially "falied" in its nest selection and time has run out on doing so. If the climate is warm enough, they may survive. If not - they die. But bees have been around for at least 50 million years. So they're pretty accomplished at finding suitable nest sites. Also, the "debate" is much different than a human one, because the bees all share the same goal, and the same set of criteria for what is "best". They also don't have politics to deal with as far as we know. A group of people rarely has that luxury in a group decision-making process.

beeG,

I started a thread here a while back which asked the question "What 'good' has man done for bees?" or how do have they benefited from us. Somewhat surprisingly, most responses amounted to the idea that the bees have only been burdened by us. I believe that many a bee colony has prospered in the protection of man where they otherwise might have been destroyed. People would argue that that natural selection might have been "better" for the bees, but if you were the bee, you'd choose living. Survival is all about that; getting through to the next day in the best shape you can, however you can.

But it seems a continuous phenomenon that human kind always sees itself as separate from "nature". As if that were possible. We are of course a naturally occurring organism, just like all others on earth. And therefore, it is not possible for us to do anything outside of our nature, and it is not possible for us to do anything "unnatural". Our beekeeping is a symbiotic relationship between organisms, just like countless other relationships where one organism cultivates, protects and manipulates another for the sake of some exploitation of something. Ants carry aphids all over your rose bushes. Shrimp pick at the teeth of the moray eel. Countless relationships exist and new ones are created as opportunities for survival are exploited.

Nothing we do is unnatural, but many things we do can have consequences which are undesirable - to us. And those are the ones we tend to focus on and call "unnatural". They're usually ones which some number of human beings find distasteful, as that group recognizes a loss or change that doesn't agree with their particular set of values, or the life they want to lead in the world they want to live in.

It always comes back to natural creatures, living natural lives and competing to live them the way that satisfies them.


Adam


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> I started a thread here a while back which asked the question "What 'good' has man done for bees?"


Well, we have spread them to fart5her reaches of the world than they had done so on their own.

It is our Ego which makes us think that we are the top of the world, that everything was made for us to use and exploit. Maybe everything is using us for their benefit. Just think about all the things, living and dead, which we humans have moved all around the world.


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## beeG (Jun 18, 2011)

Adam

I totally agree. and another concept people believe . That we are enslaving our animals. Heck those bees can fly off any time they like. I feel we are closer to nature when we manipulate the animals and make them a part of our environment. There is nothing more rewarding and never a better teacher. Then having the privilege of working with animals for a living. 
Some believe we are moving too far away from our relationship with animals. We no longer need horses, most people are completely disconnected from their food. So much so that they could not provide for themselves. And as this continues "Man' In areas where they have no connection to their food . Are coming up with wild ideas, humanizing animals . By trying to convert them into beings that are beyond the boundaries of nature. 
Even our pets sometimes suffer this. Most trainers will admit that the most training problems they face is with humans trying too hard to humanize their pets which makes the pets react negatively. 
Animals want to be what they are, not what some of these new thinkers, think they are. and I feel bees love being in a relationship with us humans. Because if not they would just be another stinging creature that needs to be sprayed with pesticides. Man can come up with a mechanical pollinator if need be. Wasn’t it china that lost all its pollinators? 

Thank god I am a woman


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I think it was a region of China, and the government promptly put the farmers themselves to work on ladders with little feather brushes to pollinate their crops by hand!

Personally, I don't see the bees loving much about us, or any other animal. I don't see them as a loving creature. And they don't need to have affectionate emotions for me to be satisfied with what they are, or to love working with them. They're a miracle of life the way they are - and it's a great life experience to just learn about the complexities of their nature. I'm happy that they're so different from human beings. That's what makes them so interesting. If I want affection, I'll turn to other people - or maybe my cat...

Adam


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## hemichuck (Oct 27, 2009)

I will go back to what I said in the second post of this thread "that bees do things in the wild the same way they do them in our hives which is any old way that they want to". I have removed a hive like every one of those pictures that intheswamp posted except the one in the grill. I agree that bees will use whatever is at their disposal to move forward when they swarm even if it means building a hive out in the open that has little chance of surviving a Kentucky winter. I dont know if my bees benefit from their relationship with me but I definatly benefit in my relationship with them. Sometimes I think they just tolerate me and hope I will learn something. I dont think of my bees as pets but like my dogs every hive has its own distinct personality. I started into this hobby because of my wifes fascination with a feral hive located in one of my trees. It lasted a couple of years and started me on my way studying these fascinating little creatures and over the past few years it has become an obsession. I've gone from 2 hives to as many as 50 and back down to the 28 or so that I have now and I have really grown to appreciate how much my bees really dont need me at all but I try endless ways to keep them from leaving just because I love to watch them. I look forward to swarm season and hang by the phone waiting for somebody to call saying "can you come get these bees". This year I went after so many that I had to give most of them away to another beek just because I didnt have time to build the equipment and keep them. Half the time I go get them for free just because I want to see what and where they have built. My observation is that the bees in the wild are very adaptable to whatever it takes for them to survive. I heard early on that when a hive swarms that it only has a 30% chance of surviving till the next season and I think thats why I like to go after them, to give them everything I have to offer to help them survive.


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## EmBee (Nov 28, 2011)

Where is all the data to support what bees "naturally do in the wild"?

On YouTube! Watching bee cut-outs shows the direction feral bees build their comb: vertically in walls & tree trunks, horizontally in floors, & branches.


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## EmBee (Nov 28, 2011)

"We are of course a naturally occurring organism, just like all others on earth. And therefore, it is not possible for us to do anything outside of our nature..."

You are a deep thinker, Adam, & I agree with most of what you say except the above statement. We are part of nature yet set apart because we can consciously choose to act against our human nature. If that were not the case, we would need a lot more prisons.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

EmBee said:


> "We are of course a naturally occurring organism, just like all others on earth. And therefore, it is not possible for us to do anything outside of our nature..."
> 
> You are a deep thinker, Adam, & I agree with most of what you say except the above statement. We are part of nature yet set apart because we can consciously choose to act against our human nature. If that were not the case, we would need a lot more prisons.


The ability to act against our impulses is also a part of our nature. It is what makes society possible, and our social behavior has been key to our survival and prosperity. So the ability to "control" our impulses is imperative to the health of our species. So that ability is also a part of our nature - not proof that we can act outside it. We are self-conscious by nature, and therefore able to consider our actions and their consequences. We are self aware and creative by nature. We like the idea of creating our own reality and making choices to shape the world around us - and even to shape ourselves.

All of this is part of the natural organism that we are. It isn't possible for us to do anything outside or beyond our natural capacities. Those capacities are however, extremely broad. 

Our "man vs nature" thing is relative to our perspective, and to the fact that we have so much ability to alter things consciously, and to be aware of what we are doing, will do or have done. It's not outside of nature. That's why we can never escape the negative consequences of what we do - we are inseparable from everything else. We're part of the interconnected web of nature, and there's no getting outside of it.

Adam


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

This is turning into a great discussion, but one that will need to continue in Tailgater. If you are interested in continuing, let me know and I'll move the last two posts there.


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## EmBee (Nov 28, 2011)

I believe we are in agreement when speaking of the whole of humankind as a “natural organism,” just as a colony of bees can be studied as one living organism. 

I also agree with your conclusion that “We’re part of the interconnected web of nature.” Our actions do affect everything around us.


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## pascopol (Apr 23, 2009)

EmBee you are way off comparing humankind to bees as a "natural organism".

There is quiet a few substantial differences between those two species, the most significant the bees can not sustain themselves living as individuals, and perhaps the most important, a bee colony is a perfect "commune" individual bees work, live and sacrifice for the common good of their "commune".


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## Corvair68 (May 10, 2011)

pascopol said:


> EmBee you are way off comparing humankind to bees as a "natural organism".
> 
> There is quiet a few substantial differences between those two species, the most significant the bees can not sustain themselves living as individuals, and perhaps the most important, a bee colony is a perfect "commune" individual bees work, live and sacrifice for the common good of their "commune".


Sounds a lot like humans to me. I doubt very many humans can sustain themselves living as an individual. People may live alone, but they do not live as individuals, they live in a community. Humans also work, live and sacrifice for the good of the community. We just have a lot more drones in our community, and they are not all male.


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## EmBee (Nov 28, 2011)

pascopol said:


> EmBee you are way off comparing humankind to bees as a "natural organism".
> 
> There is quiet a few substantial differences between those two species, the most significant the bees can not sustain themselves living as individuals, and perhaps the most important, a bee colony is a perfect "commune" individual bees work, live and sacrifice for the common good of their "commune".


I was not comparing humans to bees in any sociopolitical way. I was acknowledging Adam’s view that no matter how man acts, one could argue it is within his nature (see prior posts). Man being a “natural organism” was Adam’s description, not mine. The philosopher, George Santayana, comes to mind - who by the way, also said, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

Frankly, I was trying to leave the conversation. As I grow older, I am concerned less with philosophical questions and more with practical matters (except on the occasional Saturday night over a glass of wine).


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I read this thread and think "what a shame". All these people asking questions but too lazy to go out and get the answers.

How many of you have cut a bee tree?
Removed bees from a house?
Held a swarm on your arm for half an hour so you could get it home and into a hive?

We will never understand all of the things that bees do or why they do them. That does not preclude using them for our benefit.

DarJones


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Fusion_power said:


> I read this thread and think "what a shame". All these people asking questions but too lazy to go out and get the answers...
> DarJones


Well, not "too lazy" actually. When I asked the initial question, I was wondering if people knew of more "scientific" data sources for what the tendencies of bees in the wild are. As far as people cutting bee trees and doing cut outs, there have been a number of replies to this thread where people share their own experiences about what they saw doing them. So I'm not sure what you're meaning by "too lazy"...

Sure, we may never know all the things the bees do and why, but keeping the bees does require some understanding of them, and many of us feel that the more you understand, the better beekeeper you might become. And one person can only gather so much information on their own, which is what makes a forum like this one valuable; the collective experience can inform the individual participants.

Where's the "shame"?

Adam


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