# Never seen this before



## m1ke05 (Jul 16, 2014)

Was there any indication you needed to treat for mites?


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

I vaporized them as a preventive measure. To start off clean.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

When did you use OAV?
OAV has not bee associated with any of the symptoms you described. 

>It is not foulbrood, I've seen that before, and it doesn't fit Nosema symptoms.
Foul brood has many faces, it can baffle even the experts. 

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00218839.1965.11100101?journalCode=tjar20
It's been 5 week since you installed?

It could also be PMS how are your mites?

Post pictures of your brood


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

FP,
Thanks for the links.
3 weeks ago I did a sugar roll and came up with no mites. Thinking my sugar roll technique might be bad I OAV'ed them and came up with 12 mites over 4 days on the sticky board. That's why I think mites are not the problem unless the bees brought a mite-caused disease with them.

Later today I am going to borrow some terramycin from a friend just to cover the bases. I'll try to get some pix then. The more I look at photos the more uncertain I am. It just might be foul brood. But it doesn't look anything like what I dealt with before.
Maybe I can pull them through.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

A new package usually does not have problems with mites right away, sugar roll, mite count, OAV would rule out mites and PMS.

Spotty brood; EFB (number one cause of spotty here on beesource), PMS is next, backfilling the brood nest with honey and pollen and lastly bad or failing queen.

Your yellow-off color larva and no mites tells me it's EFB. But to be 100% sure you need to send a sample in. But I would not let the results delay your treatment.

Takes the pic before and after. Since you're treating also mix it in sugar water, there should by syrup directions too. In less than a week you should see it get better. 

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...Newbie-could-use-advice&p=1293636#post1293636


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## m1ke05 (Jul 16, 2014)

Did you OAV in a single deep or single medium? I'm no expert by any means I'm just playing devils advocate. Wondering if the dosage was high for the room that they had at the time? If I'm off base I apologize. I'm personally leaning more towards natural cell size to help control mite populations so I'm a tad unfamiliar with OAV.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

I just had a thought.
After I did the OAV and checked the mite drop I left the plastic board (whatever you call it that goes in the slot) out of the bottom board......that's when I first noticed the young bees walking out the entrance and just flopping to the ground unable to get going. Not many, maybe 3 or 4 in the morning that I could see. Who knows if maybe they got chilled by the cool nights. I slid it back in a week or so ago. 
2 weeks ago when I checked them all was great.... they were expanding, the queen laying a good pattern, the bees bringing in pollen and nectar; like a normal healthy hive.
Now they appear sick.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

I hope this pix posts.

Anyway, you can see the pattern is spotty at best. Also, there are some larvae that appear to have died in the cell. Some of it looks good. 

I'm using Mann Lake small cell plastic foundation on medium frames.. They have worked it nicely. Maybe it's the medium frames that is causing the queen to lay a funny pattern. They are occupying about 6 frames in the second chamber and 5 in the bottom. Just started to draw comb in a small area of the third medium. I was going to spread the frames so they would work out, but I got distracted by the brood pattern. 

The bees look good, their wings are nice and shiny, no defects, they are working the cells, they are real sweet natured and seem happy.

When I installed them it turned cold and rainy for a few weeks, so they are a little behind.

Tomorrow I will give them a little food.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

If all of the frames are as short on food stores as that one I would give them a gallon or two of syrup as soon as I could. When you make another picture, shake the adult bees off the frame so we can see the brood better. It could bee EFB, or any of several viruses that effect the honey bee.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

ok, I could just search, but I want to follow this thread, so what is PMS?


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Parasitic Mite Syndrome.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Thanks AR.

I just gave them some more syrup.

Yea, I'm not used to photography and it took me quite awhile to get that picture posted. Now I forgot what I did to get it to post.

Maybe tomorrow or Wednesday I can get a better picture. Thanks


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Get a photo straight into the cells showing uncapped brood. What brood I could see was bright white and not yellowish or brownish so it doesn't look like EFB from what I can see.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Left bottom corner a slumped dead larva in it's cell, go up an inch and over 1/3 the frame looks like two dead off colored odd shaped larva in their cells.

Your picture matches the picture on the USDA site of an EFB frame.

But to be 100% sure you need to send samples in. If your bees get better after a week of treatment that will also give you your answer.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Thanks FP.

Treatment has commenced. This is so unlike the EFB I dealt with years ago. Maybe tomorrow I can get a better picture.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

How is your hive doing? Responding to treatment? How is the brood pattern?


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Thanks for asking FP.

Last I checked on Saturday there was no change; the weather has been wet and cold for a few days. As soon as it clears I am going to test them with a test kit I bought, for AFB. That's my worst fear right now. 
I'll let you know how that goes.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Arnie,
It looks pretty similar to a couple of my hives earlier this year. The flow picking up seems to have helped that kind of disappear. Beltsville said "no disease". I started a course of OAV about a week ago with me being part way through treatment #2 right now. I see a few dead larva in the pic, mine started pretty scattered dead. Then got worse. Then kind of went away. I'm assuming the mites killed off enough brood and disrupted their own cycle enough to subside for a bit. Hopefully knocking them down well enough now to keep them in check until broodless OAV in the fall.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

JW,
What was the turn around time on Beltsville?
I should probably send them a sample, but I figured by the time I got an answer the bees would be dead.
Thanks


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>turn around time on Beltsville?
A week to 10 days, include your email and they will email the results (may save a few days).

Make sure to send sample of comb with dead larva for an EFB test. They can't check for EFB with bees.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Well, I tested for AFB and it came out negative. Also did a milk test and it was negative.
There are fewer dead larva but the same crappy brood pattern even on the new comb the bees drew out.
I think I will re-queen them and Monday get a sample to Beltsville for them to look at for possible EFB.

Edit:
I decided to try and get a sample out to Beltsville today since I go in to work late.
Well, I looked for a good sample with a lot of diseased brood (like the instructions say) and I could not find any 'good' 2 inch areas of bad brood. 
So I am going with the treatment, and re-queening plan.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Update:

Before I say anything about the condition of the hive I want to thank Flower Planter for all the help both on this thread and through PM. FP showed true concern and was very helpful. Much appreciated!!

So, on July 13th I put a new queen in the hive. I found a local beekeeper who has some queens from his 'no treatment' yard that have survived. The old queen was in there trying but she just seemed to be lethargic and wasn't doing well at all. Thursday I will check to see if the new Q is laying.

I treated three times with Terramycin. The bees are generally acting more normal, taking more syrup, bringing in pollen and just acting more bee-like. There is also less diseased brood.

Two things I had noticed were: no pollen being brought into the hive when there was pollen available and there were young bees every morning, about a dozen or so, crawling out of the entrance and dying or crawling in the grass. Both of these things have corrected. No dead and dying young bees and they are now gathering pollen. So I have made a mental note to add those symptoms to my memory banks for future reference. 

After I check the queen I may give them one more treatment of Terramycin just for good measure.

One other note: Since this is one of my backyard hives I have the opportunity to observe them more than the bees in the other yard. I noticed after I took out the old queen and put the cage with the new queen in the hive the bees perked up after a couple days. This is very subjective, but maybe the new queen has stronger pheromones. More likely it is my imagination.

Anyway, that's where we stand so far. Improvement but not out of the woods yet. They still have to beef up and get ready for winter.

Once again, thank you FP. If you are ever in Colorado I will buy you lunch.


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## ABruce (Dec 27, 2013)

I am very interested in your outcome, I have had a similar situation this year. All tests came back negative, but hive strength has been poor, multiple queen failures, came out of winter with eight strong hives, bought 6 and all have had a but three have had a tough go. Near by keepers are having no issues, we have been thinking a pesticide kill but no evidence just a thought. anyways please keep us updated,
thanks


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>Once again, thank you FP. If you are ever in Colorado I will buy you lunch. 

:banana:


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

I just now noticed this thread, otherwise I would have commented sooner. 

The excessive Spring rains along the Front Range have been very hard on the bees this year. Many people are reporting various types of problems that don't usually appear in Colorado, which, I think, are caused by all this extra moisture. Also, I have heard reports from other beekeepers that there are incidences of AFB in and around Boulder, Colorado, which is in the vicinity of Louisville. Sometimes, when a hive is stressed, it will show signs of AFB or EFB. It could be that all the rain has stressed this hive and caused it to exhibit one of these Foul Brood diseases. With dead larva in the cells, which are indeed visible in the photo, the hive definitely has some type of brood disease.

Figuring out what disease the hive has is the first step towards making it healthy. I would suggest running a test kit for both AFB and EFB. The below test kits are quick and easy, and are relatively reliable:

http://www.vita-europe.com/products/efb-diagnostic-test-kit/

http://www.vita-europe.com/products/afb-diagnostic-test-kit/ 

And, then, depending on the results, go from there.

Just my thoughts . . .




.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>It could be that all the rain has stressed this hive and caused it to exhibit one of these Foul Brood diseases.

Yellow-off color larva, spotty capped brood, spotty open brood and dead slumped larva in the cells. That clears up with the same antibiotics that are use on EFB? Rain, nectar dearth, late spring, mites, beetles... are stressors for bees, EFB is a stressor disease.

Also from the study I post one the first page, This is a package of bees the most likely was made from EFB bees then shipped with EFB that showed up 5 weeks later. Seeing several packages come down with EFB this year.

From the cases I get confirmation with and the ones come back negative for EFB. Here on BeeSource more then 2/3 of spotty brood is EFB and less than 1/3 is PMS, a small percent is the queen, backfilling or a drone laying worker combined.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

"_Rain, nectar dearth, late spring, mites, beetles... are stressors for bees, EFB is a stressor disease._"

Not sure I follow your point, but I was trying to say I live close to the OP and I know we have had a *huge* amount of wet and cool weather for our area this Spring. This May has been the wettest May on record for Colorado since record keeping started in 1894. And along the Front Range, June has been unusually wet and cool, too. And, we are still getting unseasonably wet and cool weather. Plus, I know many beeks are reporting stress related problems with their hives due to this excessive wet and cool weather. With such an obvious and substantial stressor in effect and already affecting people's hives, it makes sense to consider diseases that result from such weather-related stress as an important factor in diagnosing the OP's hive.

It is not the final answer, just an important clue to consider.




.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Thanks, shinbone.

This has been a different year.
I got out of beekeeping in '98 for a couple reasons, then got back into it several years ago helping a friend who got a few hives. Now last year I put a couple hives in my backyard.

So many more challenges than back in the good old days of the 80's and early 90's.

One of my neighbors has three hives and she also was out of it for many years; she had one good year and since has lost all her hives (one year) and 2 of three the next year.

Anyway, I tested for AFB using the Vita test kit and the Horst milk test..... both negative. That was a great relief.

It's possible the weather has added stress to the bees and they became vulnerable to EFB, which is what I am assuming this is.

One other thing; last year the bees just stopped gathering nectar in August. It was as if a switch had been turned off. Good weather, flowers blooming but no nectar coming in.
This year there is a nice field of alfalfa blooming close to the Lafayette hives but no more honey being produced. One more thing to worry about.

It used to be that the flow would go on into August sometimes well into August, now it stops early. 
Do you notice that, also?

Well now, I have jacked my own thread.

Thursday, God willing and the creek don't rise, I will check to see how the new queen is doing. Then I will update this as the month of August progresses and we'll see if they pull through. 

Stay tuned.....


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Nothing is perfect, but if the Vita test kit for AFB doesn't show AFB, I would be confident in ruling out AFB.

Vita has a test kit for EFB. I would consider using it, since it would be nice to have a confirmed diagnosis.

I've have done the Horst milk test with unsatisfactory results. I redid it a few times, and could never decided what it was saying. Probably requires more skill to do properly than I have. The nice thing about the Vita test is that it is easy to do and has an indicator to confirm you did the test correctly.

"_It used to be that the flow would go on into August sometimes well into August, now it stops early. 
Do you notice that, also?_"

So far this year, the flow in my area cut off at the end of the June. Pretty much nothing has been brought in since then. I am not sure what the flow will be like later in the season, but from past experience, I have learned to not expect much.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Quick update:

New queen released and laying.
However, I noticed the capped brood from the old queen is now much more solid pattern. And very few, if any, diseased larva. So, I may have gotten rid of her unnecessarily.
Lesson learned, I should have waited to see how she would respond to treatment.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I have seen that some queens and genetic lines are more prone to get it and get it worse.
So hopefully you replaced bad genes with good ones.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Quick update.

Now it has been 6 weeks since I found the problem and started treating.

I took a look in the hive Monday and the new queen is in there doing her thing.....she's cool looking; jet black and shiny, like a brand new Eldorado running around the combs.....but anyway, I digress,,,, and the brood pattern looks good and no sign of further disease.

The problem, however, is that they have gotten so far behind. They need to pull out the third medium brood chamber of foundation and get enough honey for the winter. I briefly panicked thinking I would have to combine them with my other backyard hive. I really don't want to do that. I like that queen and I don't want to take the chance of contamination. 

It was depressing. But then I remembered I have a couple 5 gallon pails of honey from my 'old' days beekeeping that I warm up and use sometimes, so I am now feeding them some of that old honey. Maybe I can help them get through until spring. 

They are eagerly bringing in pollen and nectar. In the afternoon the orientation flights are much stronger than even a couple weeks ago.

So the saga of my effort to bring this colony along continues.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Glad that they are doing better.
It sound like a really cool queen you have.

Just keep feeding, make sure the queen has room to lay, I would also give them pollen sub (in the syrup or small patties so the beetles don't get them.

Not sure how your CO winter is, here's what I have done with smaller weaker hives that might not have made it through my winter (I imagine your winter being worse)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?291483-Bees-in-the-Garage-for-the-Winter
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?295359-Over-Wintering-in-the-Garage-Update


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I had a 75% drawn single deep survive winter here last year, Arnie. They survived at least a few days of -20*F and started brooding in January. Quilt box and black wrapping.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Thanks.

I'm not sure how I would work out the garage thing, but it sounds like a great idea.

I have some styrofoam insulation I am going to put on the outside of the hive and also have cedar and screen to make a quilt box. 

The winter here is so variable. One day it can be 65 degrees in Dec and a day later it's minus 10. So the bees have to be on their toes and go from cleansing flights to cluster in a heartbeat. 

But they do it. 

My only real worry right now is them drawing the foundation. I'm pushing them with honey, syrup and a mixture of sugar, honey and pollen that I put in a little dish on the inner cover. It's comical to see them lined up around the edge of that dish with their mouths in the goo. 

They really don't like that ML plastic small cell foundation. I thought I was so clever giving them that stuff...........

I have them make comb honey so I don't have extra wax to coat the foundation with. 

We'll see what they can do in a month.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>They really don't like that ML plastic small cell foundation.
Especially this time of the year. Try a foundationless frame in the brood nest.
Someone posted a side by side test and showed they draw foundationless quicker. 
Might also try thin syrup 1 to 1.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

I have some wood frames with Rite Cell foundation that just arrived. Maybe if I take out that foundation and put in a strip of comb foundation? That might get them started.

These two backyard hives that I started last year are my attempt to use all mediums in small cell comb. So far it has been a challenge. 
First I had a dud Russian queen that I replaced. That hive is now getting going and putting up honey for the winter.
Then it was the EFB tainted package that inspired this thread.

It will take longer than expected to get this tiny apiary up to speed. Good thing I have some other hives.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

(reviving an old thread)

Arnie - I am curious how this hive turned out? Care to update us on its fate?

TIA


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

It's really hard for me to tell from looking at a photo. Loosing the depth perception of hands on viewing makes sunken caps hard to confirm, for me anyway...

I'm not trying to be chicken little and tell you you're sky is falling...

I see some dead uncapped larvae which is possibly indicative of EFB and I see what appears to be 2 cells with perforated caps and 3 cells possibly having sunken caps, which could both be indicative of AFB, *BUT* the "perforated" caps could be caused by emerging bees chewing the caps open and the sunken caps may not be sunken.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

shinbone said:


> (reviving an old thread)


I didn't notice that above disclaimer when I posted.......


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

This hive is doing quite well. The Terramycin did the trick.

As far as I know the queen is still in there(she isn't marked) and still doing her thing. Gentle bees, not swarmy. Not overly ambitious when it comes to honey production, but the non-swarming trait is better for a backyard hive. I have a queen from this spring's split and I am waiting to see how she does before I re-queen my other backyard hive with her. They like to swarm every year.

Overall a success.

Shinbone, how are your hives doing?


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