# bees not working clover??



## Dwight (May 18, 2005)

They may be working a nectar source that is more attractive to them. I have lots of Rasberrry bushes in blossom in my yard and haven't seen a bee on them, but the bees are working hard so they are getting nectar somewhere. I have lots of sweet white clover in my yard also and I seldom see my bees working that either. I think they work the clover in the meadows next door instead. They will work the best nectar sources they can find and there just are not enough blossoms to suit them on a typical lawn.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

They seem to like the clover the most just before it dies. It's a great filler if other sources fail. I plant it, and sometimes they work it.


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## DRJCKB (Apr 16, 2004)

what about purple clover? or red.. not sure what they call it- but, there is a lot around here... but, the bees are never on it  Where do you get white clover seed, mb?


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

red clover is most time called crimison clover and it will produce on well limed and fertilized soil. white clover is typically called white dutch clover. like all clovers both need to be enoculated and scarafied to maximized germination and the life of the stand.


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## FordGuy (Jul 10, 2005)

tecumsuh they sell crimson seed and red clover seed. I am just learning about the differences. Ted Tate (TWT here) is the guy to ask. He had a lot of luck with crimson, I think not so much with red. I just got 50lb of crimson for nextg year.


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## Borgnik (Jul 9, 2005)

Just keep mowing the lawn. They will work the clover when it is the preferred nectar source in the area. Until then, mowing will encourage white dutch to put up more blossoms so there will be some when the bees decide to work it.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

The amount of white clover honey is not measured by the quantity of bloom. White clover will yield the most nectar between temperatures of 80 to 90 degrees, with the largest weight gains for white clover occurring on clear sunny days.
Lower than average temperatures and rainy weather can have a drastic effect on the white clover honey yield, and the bees will not forage much from the bloom.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--They seem to like the clover the most just before it dies. I'm guessing the nectar gets more concentrated.

Referencing Pellett, white clover yield is related to temperature and other weather conditions. 

I can understand however the reason why this assumption that nectar gets more concentrated in older clover can been made. During the time when summer dryness tends to limit other available forage, white clover will continue to bloom on into early fall. This along with good weather conditions that usually accompany during summer may influence a shift in foraging strategy causing more foragers to visit clover during this time. So it may appear that the clover is producing more nectar at this time, when in fact the foragers are simply shifting to the most profitable source due to the limited availability of other quality forage caused by seasonal conditions.

[ June 10, 2006, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--Until then, mowing will encourage white dutch to put up more blossoms so there will be some when the bees decide to work it. 

I usually cut around the clover, because it will allow the clover to go to seed which will aid in the spread of clover throughout the yard.


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## Janice Lane (Feb 5, 2006)

The bees are working the clover on my lawn. It has been in the low 90's lately. I tried to go slow while mowing the lawn so they had the chance to move out of the way...but they wouldn't move. Anybody else notice the bees refusing to move for the lawn mower?


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## allrawpaul (Jun 7, 2004)

You have to bump them with the front of the mower to get them to move off sometimes. Better to mow when they arent on it.


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## cphilip (May 25, 2006)

I mowed around my largest patches last week. And it does appear they are on there way late and when its half turning brown. And that seems to cooincide with mowing time so this time I just worked around them. the patches of clover grow low so its not a bother to leave it one mowing period. Lately with not much rain for sure.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Cphilip Wrote:
--it does appear they are on there way late and when its half turning brown. 

Mike Wrote:
--They seem to like the clover the most just before it dies. I'm guessing the nectar gets more concentrated.


Time for a mythbuster's segment









WHITE CLOVER FACTS:

White clover is almost completely self-incompatible which means it needs honeybees or other insect to pollinate. In white clover pollen must carried from plant to plant rather than between florets, so pollination depends on the number of flowers and the cross-pollination between plants (ref. Hollowell 1936) . The florets of clover produce nectar the day they open and can be tripped from the first day on.

A KEY POINT IS:

If white clover florets are not visited by bees, they will stay open and fresh looking up to a week or longer, but when they are pollinated they wilt within a few hours. You can determine the degree of white clover pollination by examining the clover florets. When pollination is progressing satisfactorily, the head will have wilted florets at the base progressing to drying and turning brown, buds toward the apex, and no more than a dozen fresh open florets in between (Ref. Weaver 1957) This explains why you will see bees visiting an area of clover that is wilting and half turning brown, it indicates bees have been pollinating the white clover. 

So one can conclude that when they start seeing brown clover florets, this likely means the bees have already visited the flower several hours earlier while the flower was still fresh looking. The clover is probably NOT browning from age, but is browning as a consequence of being visited earlier by bees and pollinated, and that pollination is probably what caused the flower to die. 

So to sum up, the browning of clover florets is a result of being pollinated. That bees are seen visiting the florets at this time is not for any reason the result of bees preferring browning or aged clover, but instead suggests that the bees have been actively visiting the clover for several hours or more.

[ June 11, 2006, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

I have eight hives that have a lot of wild blackberries right behind them in full bloom and this year they are in exceptionally heavy bloom but I dont see hardly any bees working them. They are putting down honey, so something else must look better to them?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Post hoc ergo proctor hoc.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--Post hoc ergo proctor hoc.

Mike,
No need for you to attempt to suggest a relation between the two events, thats exactly what I have done for you in my pervious post, which included the correct reasons for this.









My reply was to your earlier statement that didn't make allot of sense.

--They seem to like the clover the most just before it dies.

This statement implies that bees actively select clover flowers that are in the stage just before dying which I knew was not factual.

If you prefer I use Latin, the statement in my opinion was ad absurdum. But I simply wished to correct the error for the record.









Best Wishes,

[ June 11, 2006, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>--Post hoc ergo proctor hoc.

>Yes, there is a relation between the two events, the pollination did cause the clover flower to brown.

I was not aware of that and assumed, based on my observation, that since the bees worked it as it would be blooming for some time before they worked it and since it turned brown while they were working it that it turning brown caused the bees to work it. Post hoc ergo proctor hoc. "After this, therefore because of this." It's a reasonable theory, but one for which I have no mechanism nor any experiment to prove it.

>My reply was to your earlier statement that didn't make allot of sense.

My statment makes a lot of sense. What I implied from it may well be wrong.

>>--They seem to like the clover the most just before it dies.

>This statement implies that bees actively select clover flowers that are in the stage just before dying which I knew was not factual.

You may be correct about the reason for it turning brown. I don't know. But my observation is that they do seem to like the clover the most just before it dies.

>If you prefer I use Latin, the statement in my opinion was ad absurdum. But I simply wished to correct the record without having you getting upset.

The Latin is the standard way of expressing the primary error in logic, which, assuming you are correct, and you typically are, is one, lacking all the facts, that I have made or at least implied. But what about my statment was not true or absurd? They DO seem to like the clover the most just before it dies.


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## Apuuli (May 17, 2006)

DRJCKB,
>what about purple clover? or red.. not sure what they call it- but, there is a lot around here... but, the bees are never on it

I think the red clovers have deeper flowers and this makes it difficult for honey bees to get at their nectar so honey bees tend to not be found on the red, which are favored by the longer-tongued bumble bees.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--But my observation is that they do seem to like the clover the most just before it dies.

Maybe I misinterpreted what you meant here. 
Seemed to imply at the time that you meant they liked and preferred aged clover over that of younger age. This didn't ring true with me and prompted me to find quotes from Weaver to show that dying clover was a result of being pollinated and not that the bees liked or preferred aged clover in any way. 

--The Latin is the standard way of expressing the primary error in logic, 

Sorry, I didnt realize you were attempting to express your error of logic here, thought it was directed at my post. Grandma always started taking in her native language when engaging in argument, so I instinctively got my dukes up.









--But what about my statment was not true or absurd? They DO seem to like the clover the most just before it dies.

IT would seem that way, and is probably a fair statement. But to use an analogy, people seem to like to die just before they have a funeral. On the surface it may seem like people like to die before having a funeral. But if you were to state this as a fact, it would not lend credence to the real reason that people are having funerals because they are dying, not because they are choosing to die before the funeral.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

I have followed clover in Finland. It needs moist soil and over 24C temperature sveral days before it developes nectar. 

Rainy summer is good for clover but in our country rainy and warm do not thrive together.

We have read clover here plenty but just when it start to bloom it is baled inside plastic.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Seemed to imply at the time that you meant they liked and preferred aged clover over that of younger age.

I did imply it. I didn't say it. I implied it because that's what I assumed from what I've observed.

> This didn't ring true with me and prompted me to find quotes from Weaver to show that dying clover was a result of being pollinated and not that the bees liked or preferred aged clover in any way.

You are probably correct.


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## kuntrycook (Mar 5, 2006)

Pcolar: Given the choice, I'd prefer to die before the funeral. We've had four (immediate family members) in less than two years. I wouldn't look forward to being cognizant of mine.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

You have my condolences sincere Kuntrycook.
PS. intresting handle you have there, you a cook? I'm looking for a good hot honey wing recipe.

--I did imply it. I didn't say it. I implied it because that's what I assumed from what I've observed.

Mike,
And a very good observation!

The intent was NOT to make a big deal out of a minor correction, but I do feel minor corrections are important in some cases for the record. 

Take this case for example. If one believes bees prefers to forage clover just before it dies. Then one could wrongly make an assumption that it would be less harmful for honeybees for them to apply a lawn pesticide or other chemical to the lawn early during clover bloom. Good to know this stuff sometimes. 

Best Wishes,


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## Dwight (May 18, 2005)

Apuuli,
You are correct that Honeybees do not work red clover as the blossoms are too deep for them. 
The plant some people call purple clover is most likely alfalfa. Honeybees will work Alfalfa but it is not one of their prefered plants as it snaps them when it is tripped. 
Here in Vermont our primary flow seems to come from white clover.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have some kind of purple clover in my yard. It is NOT alfalfa (although I have that also). I don't know what it's called. I has big heads like red clover. Unlike red clover, the bees do seem to work it some.


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## Dwight (May 18, 2005)

Hmmmmmmm, I have red, yellow and white clover in my area. I've never seen purple clover. We have some kind of vetch that produces a purple blossom that looks a little like a clover blossom.


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## David Stewart (Jan 22, 2005)

Purple Prairie Clover perhaps?

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/Wildseed/33/33.4.html


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

What I have is a bit more bluish in color, while that picture looks a bit more violet. Perhaps it's a different variety of the same thing though.


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## David Stewart (Jan 22, 2005)

Could be. A quick google search showed several different color variations. Here's on that is quite a bit more bluish

http://www.andersonprairie.org/pictorialguide/prairieclover.html


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## Dwight (May 18, 2005)

Learn something new everyday. I didn't even know "Prarie" clover existed. Of course there are not many praries here in VT. 
Thanks for the knowledge guys.


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