# Comb 90 degrees to top bars



## Beetree (Feb 1, 2007)

What would happen if I put in five fresh brood nest bars right away? I could try to salvage the comb already built by fastnening it to other fresh bars and change them out at the next feeding. Right now I have just five of brood nest bars in the hive of the fourteen bars I built.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Welcome to the hippie, groovie, organic world of topbar beekeeping. Ignore 160 years of modernizaton in the world of beekeeping and welcome the sites and sounds of the Kenyan plains.


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## Beetree (Feb 1, 2007)

odfrank, thanks for the encouragement. I guess.

Michael Bush, I did do a search on the topic and will spend the afternoon building a Swarm Catching Frame as per your instruction to someone else. It is looking like it is building up for a storm now. I hope to be ready to take care of this problem tomorrow with good weather.


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## kawayanan (Aug 11, 2006)

I'm sorry to hear they built a problem for you. I don't know what to suggest accept what you probably already found. What kind of a comb guide did you use?

I was a bit worried that the guides I made might not be enough. When I check to see if the queens were out, the comb they were building seemed ok. I haven't yet done a full inspection though, and am still keeping my fingers crossed.


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## crazy hivan (Aug 17, 2006)

I have always had bad luck, hence was shocked when found my bees following the comb guides. But I had already build 5 swarm ketcher frames and 5 of the dowl frames. Of course if I had not built them they would be drawing the comb at 90 degrees to the guides. The swarmys are a bit of a PITA to make. Good luck staightening them out.

Stu


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## Beetree (Feb 1, 2007)

The plans for my TBH including top bars with comb guide are found at:

http://www.beesource.com/eob/althive/murrell/index.htm

The comb guide is about 1/8" wide and hangs down about 1/2". Just after I finished my TBH there was a survey asking how long everyone's top bars were. It seemed most thought 15" was the best length. Mine are 24". I have a stick hanging down in the center of the top bar on the brood nest bars to help support the comb. I believe the bees start building comb following these sticks one bar to the next. 

I finished the swarm catcher frame and put in the hive with what comb I could get. I released the queen also. She disappeared into the hive.

Thanks to everyone for support and ideas.


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## JensLarsen (Mar 14, 2007)

*Supporting middle stick*

My initial thought was also that a stick in the middle was a smart thing. I since read that Murrell tried that and abandoned the idea. On most pictures I've seen, it also looks like the bees do not attach the comb to it that much.

On the South African Jackson hive the bees also do not attach to the vertical frames.

The stick would make the top bars more complicated and that interferes with the beautiful simplistic concept of TBH beekeeping. 

I am however thinking of using a temporary stick/board for the bees to climb on in the middle of the brood nest. If it gets the prefered way of the bees, this board might be the spot to apply treatments to maximize the effect (or minimize the dose).


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## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

*You might try this-*

Sorry i didn't catch this thread sooner. Maybe it's not too late.

When i need to deal with cross-comb, if it is not too far along, i remove it. Hopefully i catch it soon enough so that it is still empty. I try extra hard to keep very close watch on them right at first. Mine are all swarms and i'm not too worried about them taking off on me. 

In your case, you'll want to decide what to do with the fresh comb, save it or sacrifice it. It's very tender and does not respond well to handeling. But the bees will repair any damage, remarkable beings that they are.

I have made swarm catching frames for my topbars and they work very well.

After i have dealt with the errant comb, the most important thing i do for the situation is to swing the hive so that it lines up with the direction in which they want to build. This has worked very well for me on several occasions.

For me it often means that the bars run lenghthwise North-south. I don't know why it is, it just seems to be.

As an aside, i am lucky enough to have available to me from where i work, off-cuts from a proccess that are kiln-dried poplar. They are triangular in cross section, about 1" across the bottom and about half to 3/4" across the other legs. They are about 48" long. They work very well as comb guides. I just glue and staple them along the length of the topbar, cut to just fit inside. That helps keep the bar from sliding off lengthwise.

I also use these in my Langs. They all have only foundationless frames.

I have shipped out tubes of these to folks that have expressed interest. There is about 36 to 40some in a tube. They are free to me and free to you, but shipping runs about $8.00. Anyone can send me an address and i will send them out. Right now i have maybe two ready to go. Let me know if you are interested. They might come in handy for your next TBH.

I hope any of this helps.

Regards,
jim


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

FWIW my opinion, based on little observation, is that bees like to build their comb in line with the direction of the entrance. Which means if you have an entrance at the end of a TBH, you increase the likelihood of bees building comb across your top bars instead of along them. 

This is one of the reasons I chose to place my TBH entrances in the side of the hive, which encourages them to build along the bars. I can't prove it always works, but I have never yet had bees build comb the wrong way.


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## Wojtek (May 31, 2005)

I agree with the observation of Buckbee. 
Besides, several things influence the way bees build their combs, particularly at the time of installing a new packet, at least on my opinion, based on my observations.
1. Position of entrance.
2. Position of little cage with a queen before releasing her.
3. Width of a hive.
4. Position of a feeder.


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## Beetree (Feb 1, 2007)

*All appears to be going well*

I opened my hive today in order to keep a closer watch to make sure things are going well at first. They are building comb on the comb guides on the bars next to the swarm catcher frame. The comb they have built is centered in between the support stick and the wall of the hive not attached at all to the support stick. I replaced the bars that had no comb with brood nest bars with the support stick removed. 

My bars do run North and South with the entrance on the East. The baggie feeder is on the floor of the hive very near the entrance. To start with, I had syrup running everywhere though, as I wrote in my original post. They had that cleaned up today also.

The bees had built comb around the queen cage initially. I had hung the queen cage just off of center in the middle of the group on the brood nest bars. How should a person position the queen cage in a TBH? What about the position of the feeder?

Thanks to everyone for suggestions and I welcome more.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How should a person position the queen cage in a TBH?

This seems to be the leading cause of problems in THBs and in regular hives. The cage causes the wrong space and wild comb. In a TBH this is more critical as once they get off they stay off. I would NOT put the queen cage in a THB when installing a package. I would not put one in a regular hive either. Because the cage causes too many problems and they have accepted the queen after a day or two anyway. I do direct release.

> What about the position of the feeder?

Ideally, I suppose, you should build a Division Board feeder and use it as your "follower" to reduce the size and to feed the bees. Just build a frame and glue luan plywood onto the frame. Then pour beeswax in and coat the inside and dump out the beeswax. Put some kind of ladder in and/or a float and call it good. The feeder will then help with keeping the comb straight as well.


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## Wojtek (May 31, 2005)

In my practice, since I am not shaking bees from a box, I practice placing the little cage with a queen between the 2nd and the 3rd bar, ¾ distally from the entrance, expecting formation of a ball of bees in this place after bees walk from a box placed inside the hive, toward the queen. This is the place where bees start to build combs. (this is very wide hive. bars are 23 ¾")
If I would like them to start from the center, (in narrow hives) I would place the little cage with a queen in the center of bar.
See these pictures:
The first is the ball of bees a few hours after opening a box.
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/PakietII9_2.jpg

The second and the 3rd are developing combs after slightly more then 2 weeks.
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/125_2551_1.jpg
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/125_2547_1.jpg

The 3rd are consecutive photos about which I mentioned before.
http://homepage.interaccess.com/~netpol/POLISH/Ule/PakietIIComp.jpg


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## MGBee (May 25, 2004)

Beetree,

Good luck with your TBH.

Like you, I had the cross comb problem on the first two packages I installed. I agree with Michael Bush that hanging the queen cage from a top bar during installation results in cross comb more times than not.

The only other two packages I have installed into TBH, I direct released her at the time of installation. No Problem with her acceptance and zero cross comb.

Exposed comb guide height on bars, I now have settled on 1/8" exposure. I tried some 1/2" height and the bees seemed to have problem getting it connected to bar correctly resulting in fallen comb when I inspected. Maybe that was just me and poor handling skills.

I like the TBH and have no argument with those who would rather work Langs.
Last year, I averaged 30 lbs. per TBH in production-- not up to Lang standards here by any means but all I could use and nice honey Christmas gifts to boot.

Good luck with your bees!

Regards,
Miles


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## beegee (Jun 3, 2003)

I have considered making a TBH but have never studied it enough to begin. I'm wondering what would happen if you made a TBH with the frames running parallel to the sides, with a central entrance on th emidpoint of one of the sides? You would hang the top bars on cross-braces mounted perpendicular on the top edge of the sides.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

beegee said:


> I have considered making a TBH but have never studied it enough to begin. I'm wondering what would happen if you made a TBH with the frames running parallel to the sides, with a central entrance on th emidpoint of one of the sides? You would hang the top bars on cross-braces mounted perpendicular on the top edge of the sides.


I see no point in doing what you suggest - you are simply creating the same setup sideways on, with no room to expand the colony.

If you want to see what a hive with a side entrance looks like, with building instructions, see http://www.lulu.com/content/815182 or take a look at my site.


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