# mini poll - Time table for Switching hive bodies at latitude 43 deg. N



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Not necessary.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I agree. I only did it (two weeks ago) because the bottom two chambers were void of bees and a mouse nest was in the bottom one, so I moved the bees down to the bottom to keep any mouse in check.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You guys are confusing me already. Barry, you agree with Solomon, it is not necessary but you did it two weeks ago?:s

Solomon, the time table is not necessary or switching deeps is not necessary?


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

It's not necessary in the sense that "it should be a common practice you do every spring." There are exceptions to everything in beekeeping. Unless you have a good reason to switch brood chambers, it's not necessary. Bees will expand their broodnest down as well as up. Bees will also move stores around as needed. Early on I use to switch brood chambers around in Spring to get the bees on the bottom, because you know, "bees always build up." Another management practice that went to the wayside for me.


----------



## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Barry is right on this issue. I used to switch as a matter of practice till I stopped and thought about it. If there are bees in both chambers I won't switch anymore. If there are only bees in the top chamber, I switch them and it is more for management than a need as like Barry stated they will move down, I can just gauge things better on how the hive is progressing into spring and not be as intrusive if they are growing up instead of down.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> If there are only bees in the top chamber,


What if the bottom deep is full of honey and no bees would you still leave the honey in the bottom?


----------



## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

No, I would move some from the center of the bottom to the outer edges of top and move the empties or the brood down to center. Bees naturally want the brood in the center with stores on the sides...sure they can move it around, but if you give them empties and move the honey for them to the outside they will fill up those empties with brood lots quicker.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

OK so to me switching frames around is not much different than swapping the boxes that house the frames. I know literally it is not the same but doesn't it have the same effect?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> What if the bottom deep is full of honey and no bees would you still leave the honey in the bottom?


How did that happen?


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

About 36°4′35″N 94°9′39″W


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> How did that happen?


I don't know if it did yet but I have heard of it happening? What causes it I don't know. The bees go up to the top cover (maybe for warmth) in the winter and do not move down. It can be a bad thing because the food source gets too far away and they starve. So the story goes.
I know right now that there is not a lot of honey in the top deep and it is going to take some time breaking the frames in the top deep away from the frames in the bottom deep. They have them cemented in big time.

The Mohawk valley rain pattern has started and I don't want to spend an hour or so trying to get the frames out in the rain when the only brood I have may be in these frames. I am also concerned that I could squish the queen breaking that burr comb away.

Any other hobbyist want to comment on the time table?


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If it's a healthy hive, and the top box has no honey, the bottom box won't either, unless you put it there. I'd have a look.

It takes you an hour to prise your hive apart?


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> It takes you an hour to prise your hive apart?


I don't know how long it is going to take me. I never did it. It took me a good ten minutes to get three frames out. How do I know if the queen is not in the mess between the top and bottom box?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I don't know if it did yet but I have heard of it happening? What causes it I don't know. The bees go up to the top cover (maybe for warmth) in the winter and do not move down. It can be a bad thing because the food source gets too far away and they starve. So the story goes.
> I know right now that there is not a lot of honey in the top deep and it is going to take some time breaking the frames in the top deep away from the frames in the bottom deep. They have them cemented in big time.
> 
> The Mohawk valley rain pattern has started and I don't want to spend an hour or so trying to get the frames out in the rain when the only brood I have may be in these frames. I am also concerned that I could squish the queen breaking that burr comb away.
> ...


When you make statements about the way things are based on something you read possibly happening it comes acxross like you went into your hive and found it that way.

The only way the lower box would be full of honey is if the beekeeper put it there. That isn't the way bees do things. They put honey above brood.

Get into your hive, w/ a smoker and hive tool, on the next nice day. It won't take as long as you describe just to get the top box off of the bottom box. Even if they are burr combed together, which they may or may not be.

If you continue being that worried about squashing your queen, you will never get into your hive. Just do it. The chances are slim to none. Hundreds and thousands of colonies are manipulated daily w/out queens being squashed.

How do you know how much honey is in the top deep? Or are you assuming?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I don't know how long it is going to take me. I never did it. It took me a good ten minutes to get three frames out. How do I know if the queen is not in the mess between the top and bottom box?


You don't. No one does. Until you see her, you can hardly ever guess where she will be when you find her.

Why is there a mess between thye top and bottom box? What is the mess like?


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Certainly shouldn't be taking 10 minutes to get three frames out, do you have foundation in all of your frames or possibly a large gap between the boxes? A complete inspection should take a few minutes.


----------



## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

... and how about 42° 57' N lat. At an elevation of 1200' ? 

I like to know when things happen in relation to the blooming of trees and plants.

The Maples and dandelions are all on local time...


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

May 5th, 2:00 PM.

Relax, you'll know soon enuf.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Acebird said:


> I don't know how long it is going to take me. I never did it. It took me a good ten minutes to get three frames out. How do I know if the queen is not in the mess between the top and bottom box?


Acebird I'd highly recommend working some bees with an experienced beekeeper, preferably commercial, if you can find someone willing. For practicle stuff like how to open a hive, the experience is invaluable and cannot be learned from a book.

I was a hobbyist for 3 years before I got a job with a full time beekeeper. I thought I knew a lot. But the hands on stuff I learned even on the first day would have taken me a lifetime to figure out as a hobbyist, and possibly more than a lifetime.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

There are bee clubs near by. Get someone to work hives w/ a time or two. Do you know Pat Bono?


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

A bee club? Hmm.. well better than nothing. But you'll get the theories of whoever is doing it, and you are not going to learn to be efficient.

Working with a larger beekeeper on his own hives, will help with the issues you have mentioned.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't switch them. ESPECIALLY if there is brood in both. If there is brood in both boxes you will break up the brood nest and force them to rearrange the entire thing.


----------



## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

I know it doesn't fit the current definition chosen by this forum but some people might consider switching hive bodies a treatment. I will do it as soon as I think it is warm enough to take the hive apart and is not too rainy or windy, which may be today. I'll only do it if there is no brood in the bottom box and the main reason will be so I can replace the bottom deep with a medium. This doesn't seem like a practice that you can do on a timetable. If the weather had cooperated I would have done it a month ago.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Hundreds and thousands of colonies are manipulated daily w/out queens being squashed.


I think that is the difference. When you frequently manipulate the hive the bees don't get a chance to build enough burr comb between the top and bottom frames so they get bound together like one continuous frame.



> How do you know how much honey is in the top deep? Or are you assuming?


Top box:
The first frame was a solid frame of honey on both sides. The next two frames had nothing in them. The last two frames on the south east side had all the bees on them. I didn't get these out yet. The ones in the middle looked to be empty like the second and third frames.

When I finally did get the three frames out the burr comb was loaded with honey and oozed down into the bottom box. Judging on how hard it was to get the individual frames free I doubt that I could just pry the two boxes apart to take the whole top box at once. And what if one or two of the frames in the bottom box come up with it. I am not about to shear the top box from the bottom because if the queen is there she is surely a goner. And I doubt if I can get a queen now on short notice.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Acebird said:


> I doubt if I can get a queen now on short notice.


Did you know that the bees are capable of making their own queen in an emergency situation?


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> I'll only do it if there is no brood in the bottom box and the main reason will be so I can replace the bottom deep with a medium.


Thanks for the reply John but now I have to ask why you are replacing the bottom deep with a medium? My goal was to replace the top deep with a medium so I would have two hives in the future with one deep on the bottom and the rest all mediums.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Did you know that the bees are capable of making their own queen in an emergency situation?


Yes, but at this point I would rate the hive as weak and it is my only hive so I have no way of adding any brood or nurse bees. Also, some say that emergency queens are weak themselves. I would like to get a swarm but I don't know what I am doing there either.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Acebird said:


> Also, some say that emergency queens are weak themselves.


Who? Some also consistently produce queens this way. I can provide a name or two if you like.


----------



## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

Acebird said:


> Thanks for the reply John but now I have to ask why you are replacing the bottom deep with a medium? ...


Because a deep is heavy. I hope to at least transition to hives with only one deep. (of course then I will not be switching hive bodies in the spring)

P.S. If frames in the top box are stuck to ones in the bottom box loosen them before you separate the boxes.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> A bee club? Hmm.. well better than nothing.


I'm hoping that Acebird will find someone to work w/ there for practical hands on experience, which doesn't have to come from a commercial operation. How many have the time for someone w/ no real experience? Sure, were he near me I would give him a try, but lots of the guys I know want help, not someone to apprentice to.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I think that is the difference. When you frequently manipulate the hive the bees don't get a chance to build enough burr comb between the top and bottom frames so they get bound together like one continuous frame.
> 
> Mark's reply: No not really. That can easily happen on a strong nectar flow.
> 
> "Judging on how hard it was to get the individual frames free I doubt that I could just pry the two boxes apart to take the whole top box at once. And what if one or two of the frames in the bottom box come up with it. I am not about to shear the top box from the bottom because if the queen is there she is surely a goner.


That is exactly what you should have done before trying to remove frames from the top box.

Here is how I manipulate a dbl deep hive.
1. Smoke the entrance, remove the cover and smoke the top.
2. Stick thew hive tool between the top and bottom deeps, at the right hand corner, being right handed, and pry up on the upper super by lifting the hive tool. This should seperate the frames in each box from each other. If it doesn't, stick the hive tool between the supers while holding the top one up and pry the frames apart.
3. Let the top super back down and go on w/ inspection of upper deep by removing the frames, one at a time.

Surely a goner? No, nothing sure about that at all. I understand that you are worried, but don't be. It hardly ever happens.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Agree with what's been said, plus Acebird, it's pretty normal for hives to build burr comb between the boxes, you'll need to develop skills around working with this. Some beekeepers meticulously scrape it all away every time they open the hive but no point really, the bees will just put it back, the way they want it.

Also, prizing combs out & having honey running all over the place, you need to before removing the first comb put your hive tool in & seperate the combs as widely as possible, then pull out a frame carefully. Lean that one on the outside of the hive so you now have a gap in the box so you can prize other combs apart widely before pulling them out.

But EOD, all this is "booklearning", something I think you already have a bit of. It will greatly help you with running a real hive, if you can go out with a experienced beek. I'm kind of with Sqkcrk in that many commercial beeks are constantly bombarded with this type of request and may not have the time for it, but try to go with someone with many hives.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

One thing that I am greatful for as a beekeeper is my tiome as an Apiary Inspector. But, klnowing what I know now, I wouldn't want me of 20 years ago in my hives w/out alot of supervision. It takes time and instruction to gain tyhe knowledge and skill to be comfortable around bees and knowing how to manipulate the parts of a beehive. Even something as simple as cover removal.

And I certainly wouldn't jump into queen rearing in the first,second or third year of my beekeeping career. One needs to learn how to walk before they start running.


----------



## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Our State Bee Inspector is a man of very few words, but a man with a very high Bee IQ. It is poetry in motion to watch him work a hive. He works a smoker like a fine surgical instrument working only in shirt sleeves and veil. He treats every hive like it was his own and seldom offers advice unless he feels it is necessary or you ask. I may be a bit hyperbolic here... but I do feel I have learned a few things whenever he leaves.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

JohnAllen said:


> Because a deep is heavy. I hope to at least transition to hives with only one deep. (of course then I will not be switching hive bodies in the spring)
> 
> P.S. If frames in the top box are stuck to ones in the bottom box loosen them before you separate the boxes.


One deep!

People have told me that my two deeps are marginal for upstate over wintering. How are you going to do it with only one?
Check my new inspection post. If I could have broken them loose in a timely fashion I would have gone that way. When I saw that queen on top of the frames I knew she was in the top box so I went for it. Switch to 8 frame mediums like I am doing and weight won't be that bad.

So if other people have an interest in this poll I did my thing just now. I also took off the roofing material which had a bunch of ants between that and the box. The ants hit the road quick.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Acebird said:


> some say.





Solomon Parker said:


> Who?


Ha Ha Sol, sometimes you are the life of the party!


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

JohnAllen said:


> Because a deep is heavy. I hope to at least transition to hives with only one deep. (of course then I will not be switching hive bodies in the spring)
> 
> P.S. If frames in the top box are stuck to ones in the bottom box loosen them before you separate the boxes.


One deep!

I was told that two deeps are marginal for upstate over wintering. Switch to medium 8 frames and weight won't be so bad.

Check my new inspection post. If I could have got the frames loosen in a timely maner I would have gone that route. When I saw the queen on the top of the frames I went for it because I knew she would be in the top box.

So if anyone is interested in this poll I did my thing just a while ago. I also removed the roofing material.


----------



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Where's the poll?


----------



## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

> and you are not going to learn to be efficient.


Hummm, so it appears you are saying only commercial beekeepers work efficiently?? 



> But you'll get the theories of whoever is doing it


This portion of your statement is true regardless who he gets help from, commercial or otherwise.

Acebird, despite your trepidation you need to get into your boxes to see what is going on, if some cells of honey get torn open they will clean it all up in a jiffy and the reason the frames are so hard to get out is you have never been in there, refer to the pictures and posts from darrelva concerning the neglected hives he acquired. JMO.

Sorry Ace, we must have been typing at the same time!! How did it look??


----------



## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

Acebird said:


> One deep!
> 
> People have told me that my two deeps are marginal for upstate over wintering. How are you going to do it with only one?
> Check my new inspection post. If I could have broken them loose in a timely fashion I would have gone that way. When I saw that queen on top of the frames I knew she was in the top box so I went for it. Switch to 8 frame mediums like I am doing and weight won't be that bad.
> ...


oops, did not mean one deep and nothing else! The plan is one deep and some mediums, all mediums when I can do it.


----------



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

NasalSponge said:


> Hummm, so it appears you are saying only commercial beekeepers work efficiently??


I wouldn't say that around here, not out loud anyway, might be bad for my health!

What I will say, is spend a week working for a commercail beekeeper. Then tell me how much you would learn about efficiency at your bee club.

That is not negative about bee clubs. But by their nature, when a bee club opens a hive it's primarily about teaching stuff to learning beeks. IE, there is the queen, that is drone comb, pause for questions now, etc. That's what they have to do. But when you've been commercial, it no longer takes 10 minutes to get 3 frames out.

Larger beekeepers will know what I'm saying, smaller ones may not.

End of the day I suggested he try to spend time with a commercial beek. That's cos I believe on the basis of what he said, he would benefit from that. I can't force him to though. If he did, he would gain a whole new range of skills and be glad he did. But, his call, I can't make him, or anyone else, do anything.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I was told that two deeps are marginal for upstate over wintering. Switch to medium 8 frames and weight won't be so bad.

But then you will need four 8 frame mediums to have the same volume. What will the method be for deciding what to put where if you "switch hive bodies"?


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> oops, did not mean one deep and nothing else! The plan is one deep and some mediums, all mediums when I can do it.


Looks like we are aiming for the same goal.



> But then you will need four 8 frame mediums to have the same volume. What will the method be for deciding what to put where if you "switch hive bodies"?


Glad you asked Michael now you can tell me. Barry says "not necessary" What do you put where if you don't switch hive bodies?
I though it was three mediums = two deeps? Or are you saying to go to four because 3 would be marginal?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What do you put where if you don't switch hive bodies?
I though it was three mediums = two deeps? Or are you saying to go to four because 3 would be marginal? 

My typical setup is four eight frame mediums going into winter (the equivalent of two ten frame deeps), but five is not unusual nor is three. I don't put anything anywhere since I don't switch. They are where they are. If you have ten frame mediums, three would be equivalent to two ten frame deeps.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Ok now I see your logic. I know all the equipment should be the same but do you feel I should leave the deep on the bottom or should I work the deep up under thee mediums to eventually get the deep out of the hive next year?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If the deep is on the bottom and it's early spring the bees will be in the top box and the bottom one is probably empty.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Unless the colony is really strong, of a high population, then thhere may be some brood in each box. Which I believe was not the case in Acebird's situation.


----------



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> If the deep is on the bottom and it's early spring the bees will be in the top box and the bottom one is probably empty.


Except now I have removed the bottom box so the only place they can be is right on the bottom.

Yes Mark I looked over every comb to look for eggs and was confident that there wasn't any. I was worried that the "white stuff" might be eggs from another creature.


----------

