# Idiopathic Brood Disease Syndrome Treatment Options



## mmacV001 (Apr 21, 2015)

Looks like my first post is going to be in the diseases and pests section.....

I'm a new beekeeper (working on my second season) and this year two of my four colonies has Idiopathic Brood Disease Syndrome (IBDS). I originally thought it was foulbrood but called the state inspector for a second opinion. After he inspected the hives he indicated that it was IBDS and not foulbrood. I'm going to send some samples off to the lab in Maryland for testing just to be sure. It is affecting the larva and pupa all seem to be melting. The inspector thought it was associated with a high level of mites in the colony but I have seen the recent research which indicated the link to mites may not be as strong as first thought. 

So my questions is this, how have people been treating hives with IBDS? I am thinking about removing all of the comb and shaking the bees onto some new foundation and feeding 1:1 syrup. Looking for some advice from others who have had to deal with this and how they have dealt with this issue. I appreciate your help and insight as I continue to absorb more information.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

The first thing you must do is treat to reduce the varroa mites. In 1995 Keith Delaplane did a study on what was then called BPMS, Bee Parasitic Mite Syndrome. He found that treating for the mites, followed by treating with Terramycin, increased the chances of the colony surviving. The Terramycin was delivered in powdered sugar, mixed 1 tablespoon to 5 tablespoons full. One tablespoon of the mix was dusted on the top bar ends 1 time a week for 3 weeks.

The times I had colonies crashing with varroa I used Delaplane's method, along with feeding sugar syrup, and all of them returned to normal. I caught them early enough that the adult populations had not crashed to the point they could not care for brood, and defend the colony from robbing. It pays to reduce the entrance to a size they can defend. If the populations are down I would give a frame of sealed and emerging brood to help build the nurse bee population.

I have not seen the studies saying that varroa is not linked to IBDS, could you give me the study name?


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## stajerc61 (Nov 17, 2009)

I am curious. Why and how did you and the state come to the diagnosis of IBDS if you have a high level of mites. As far as I know Idiopathic means the cause is unknown. If you know you have a high level of mites I would think that the diagnosis would lean towards BPMS.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Welcome to Beesource



mmacV001 said:


> I am thinking about removing all of the comb and shaking the bees onto some new foundation and feeding 1:1 syrup.


Why have you chosen to do this?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

If you don't know the cause of a disease, but you do observe known causes of stress - why would you not address those issues even if they might be unrelated?

If you...
Reduce or eliminate robbing
Ensure the best possible nutrition
Make sure there is an adequate population of healthy nurse bees
Manage mite levels to below economic threshholds
Replace the queen if she might be compromised
And yes eliminate unhealthy brood/comb

Usually a reasonably strong hive will recover almost no matter what the problem is even if you aren't sure of the cause - of course best practice is to maintain all of these factors ongoing and avoid most problems to begin with.

However if a hive is weak and seriously compromised I shake them out - otherwise hive beetles move in and ruin the comb. This is why you keep spares - nucs.

But I'm just a hobbyist so take it for what it's worth.


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## mmacV001 (Apr 21, 2015)

AR Beekeeper said:


> The first thing you must do is treat to reduce the varroa mites. In 1995 Keith Delaplane did a study on what was then called BPMS, Bee Parasitic Mite Syndrome. He found that treating for the mites, followed by treating with Terramycin, increased the chances of the colony surviving. The Terramycin was delivered in powdered sugar, mixed 1 tablespoon to 5 tablespoons full. One tablespoon of the mix was dusted on the top bar ends 1 time a week for 3 weeks.
> 
> The times I had colonies crashing with varroa I used Delaplane's method, along with feeding sugar syrup, and all of them returned to normal. I caught them early enough that the adult populations had not crashed to the point they could not care for brood, and defend the colony from robbing. It pays to reduce the entrance to a size they can defend. If the populations are down I would give a frame of sealed and emerging brood to help build the nurse bee population.
> 
> I have not seen the studies saying that varroa is not linked to IBDS, could you give me the study name?


AR Beekeeper the study that I am talking about can be found here:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167587712002656


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

“Historically, we’ve seen symptoms similar to IBDS associated with viruses spread by large-scale infestations of parasitic mites,” says Dr. David Tarpy, an associate professor of entomology at North Carolina State University and co-author of a paper describing the study. “But now we’re seeing these symptoms – a high percentage of larvae deaths – in colonies that have relatively few of these mites. That suggests that IBDS is present even in colonies with low mite loads, which is not what we expected.” The study was conducted by researchers from NC State, the University of Maryland, Pennsylvania State University and the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA).

http://wasba.org/idiopathic-brood-disease-syndrome-ibds/


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## mmacV001 (Apr 21, 2015)

stajerc61 said:


> I am curious. Why and how did you and the state come to the diagnosis of IBDS if you have a high level of mites. As far as I know Idiopathic means the cause is unknown. If you know you have a high level of mites I would think that the diagnosis would lean towards BPMS.


stajerc61 we did not test for mites but he did see one on one of the larva he pulled from the cells. Based on the molten state of the brood as all stages of their life cycle the state inspector indicated that I had "snotty brood". He indicated that he believes this is caused by a high mite load in the hives. I was going to do a sugar shake to get a mite count this week. When I looked up "snotty brood" I found that it was a common name for IBDS. Then I found the research paper done my several university which determined that IBDS has been found in hives with very low mite levels which caused them to conclude that it was not linked to mites, hence the use of the word idiopathic.


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## mmacV001 (Apr 21, 2015)

beemandan said:


> Welcome to Beesource
> 
> 
> Why have you chosen to do this?


beemandan, 

I was trying to figure out a way that I could treat this without the use of chemicals. I figured by breaking the brood cycle it will cut down on the mites (if that is truly an issue) and by providing new comb it will remove any potential infection or disease left in the cells. Is this way over board?


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Welcome to Beesource!



shinbone said:


> This is my new mantra:
> 
> _Whenever a relatively new beek posts about a hive dying, and the description of the circumstances doesn't mention a mite strategy, either a treating or a non-treating one, it is most probably mites that killed the hive._


JMHO


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I generally suppose that a bee inspector is semi-bright and somewhat knowledgeable in bee stuff. If he/she said it was mites....until proven otherwise, I'd assume that to be the case. By the time you see overt symptoms...especially in the spring.... your colony is already a long way down a slippery slope. If you plan to keep ahead of mites by replacing your drawn comb with foundation in hopes of staying off of that slippery slope, you'll probably need to do so more often than every other year. I would strongly suggest a more sustainable strategy.
I might add that implementing an objective mite testing program will go a long way toward understanding the issue.
Good luck


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

mmacV001, Thanks for the study. If you intend to do a shakedown onto foundation it would create a condition that would favor drone comb trapping/sugar dusting to remove the varroa from the colony. It is possible to cleanup a colony without chemicals, but the varroa must all be on the adults and none in brood.

Your bees are your bees, manage them as you please. Just remember that some of the management philosophies posted here on Beesource can be dangerous to honey bees and beekeeper's pocketbooks.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

AR Beekeeper said:


> Just remember that some of the management philosophies posted here on Beesource can be dangerous to honey bees and beekeeper's pocketbooks.


Excluding the pocketbooks of those who sell replacement bees, of course.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Post pictures.

>It is affecting the larva and pupa all seem to be melting.
Sounds similar to EFB

>The inspector thought it was associated with a high level of mites in the colony 
Did your inspector find a high mite count? What was your mite count? If so could be PMS.

I would treat right away just as AR Beekeeper suggested, time is critical.

Still send samples for testing.

"Idiopathic Brood Disease Syndrome"
Randy Oliver suspected IBDS and sent samples to the lab and they came back EFB positive;
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick-bees-part-18a-colony-collaspse-revisited/

>how have people been treating hives with IBDS? 
Randy treated EFB with OTC

Here's some links with pictures and treatment...
Let me know if you need anything else.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?298750-Pseudo-Laying-Workers

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?310057-Solid-Eggs-Spotty-brood-pattern

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?304087-What-is-going-on-with-this


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## mmacV001 (Apr 21, 2015)

FlowerPlanter, 

I will take pictures tonight of the brood frames. I am also going to order some Terramycin and I am going to shake the bees onto some new foundation. I was told after the shake down to not feed the bees for a few days to eliminate any of the virus in their gut then give them sugar syrup. Both of these hives were from packages last year. 

The inspector did not do a mite count, but we did see a few mites.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Search "shook swarm method EFB"
Lots of good info on the net

OTC treatment alone 21% chance of reoccurrence
OTC and shook swarm method 4.8 % chance of reoccurrence


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## mmacV001 (Apr 21, 2015)

Well I did the shook swarm method along with OTC treatment. I have a few pictures of the brood frames I pulled out of the hives.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

EFB


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

How many bees are there in that hive?


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## mmacV001 (Apr 21, 2015)

Only enough to cover like two to three frames (essentially a nuc). I did the shook swarm and gave them three frames of freshly drawn comb from a healthy hive and I am feeding them sugar water in hopes that they will start to build up. It may be to late for this one.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Having drawn comb for them might be the saving grace. I'd think that if they were on foundation alone.....they wouldn't stand a chance.


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## rsjohnson2u (Apr 23, 2012)

Did you withhold syrup, or give it to them right away?


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