# sugar vs. honey



## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

hey guys i always believed honey was better for bees but after talking to this guy today he told me that for feeding the bees, sugar syrup is better cause it is prosesed is this true? he says he only gets 3% winter loss out of 800 hives sure would make feeding the hives easier. thanks Nick


----------



## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

hey guys i did some more looking on the web tonight and look what i cam up with this is from George Imirie:WHAT IS THE BEST FOOD? - For that large segment of readers who answer: honey,
you are WRONG! Honey is NOT the best food for a bee, nor is it the most desired food
of the bee! Honey for a bee is very much like hardtack for a sailor or a K ration for a
soldier. Honey is a stored food for winter use. The choice food of all honey bees is
NECTAR! What is the chemical makeup of nectar? Nectar is a watery solution of
several different chemical sugars: sucrose (common table sugar) is the predominant
sugar followed by small percentages of other sugars, fructose and dextrose; and trace 
amounts of about 20 other sugars. Depending on the floral source, humidity, time of 
day, and many other components, nectar may vary from a skimpy 4% sugar solution
to a very high 60% sugar solution. Within every nectar, there is some minute quantity
of a substance, herb or oil, that gives the nectar an odor or taste that attracts the
bees to it. The singular most important thing that a beekeeper should know is that
nectar is the most desired food of a honey bee, whereas honey is an emergency winter
food.

WHAT MAKES THE BEST FEED? - Just about anything sweet has been tried by bee-
keepers over many years, and here are the names of some: honey, table sugar (sucrose)
syrup, hi-fructose corn syrup, coke syrup, molasses, pancake syrup, candy, and just 
plain dry sugar. With the exception of table sugar syrup, all of the other items mentioned
above, have some problem that may not make them desirable feed for honey
bees. Honey may contain bacteria or disease pathogens (and probably does if it came
from a commercial packer), hi-fructose corn syrup is made by chemically converting
potato starch into glucose followed by converting glucose into fructose, and coke syrup,
molasses. pancake syrup, and candy all contain some ingredients that provide the taste
characteristic to the product. All of these products except plain sugar syrup contain
components such as starches or sugars other than sucrose that may present problems
for bees, notably dysentery. Plain table sugar is SUCROSE, just as in nectar, and is
totally digestible by the bee which converts the sucrose into the two simple sugars
of fructose and glucose, which are the sugars contained in honey. When 1 pound of
sugar is dissolved in 1 pound of water (same as 1 pint), that is referred to as 1:1 sugar
syrup, and is considered artificial nectar by the bees which stimulates brood rearing.
When 2 pounds of sugar is dissolved in 1 pound of water, that is referred to as 2:1 sugar
syrup, and is quite similar to honey and is used for winter storage rather than nursery
feed. Even though you might save money by purchasing hi-fructose corn syrup, coke
syrup, or be given candy refuse or other sweet products, there is little question that
table sugar syrup is the safest food you can give to bees and hence table sugar makes 
the BEST FEED!


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There are people who hold that opinion.


----------



## Lesli St. Clair (Jan 3, 2005)

I remember reading that post from George Imrie, and recall that one of his objections to feeding honey is that it contains solids that the bees need to void--in other words, more cleansing flights. 

While that is probably true, I would point out that feral bees live in my area, and they overwinter on goldenrod and aster, and losses in the wild are in teh 25% range. I have to wonder: we know that honey contains trace minerals and such. While the amounts are nothing to us, do they do something for the bees?


----------



## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> we know that honey contains trace minerals and 
> such. While the amounts are nothing to us, do 
> they do something for the bees?

If they do, it is so minor an "advantage" as to
evade detection in even the largest studies.
The Canadians have looked at this endlessly,
and there is no difference between properly
prepared HFCS, cane sugar syrup, or beet sugar
syrup as bee feed. All are far superior to
honey in terms of colony survival, build up, etc,
and all are equally superior to honey.

George Imirie is a fun guy to hang out with,
and is a good teacher of new beekeepers, but 
I do wish that someone would teach him about 
more appropriate use of THE CAPS LOCK KEY.


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Sugar vs. honey gets argued about from time to time on all these groups. One of the reasons sugar is fed to bees is because it's cheaper than honey. Depending on the source, some honeys are less easy to digest than sugar and for those bees hunkered during long cold dark winters, that can sometimes be a problem. But, is it good to take ALL the honey from the hive and replace it ALL with sugar? Eva Crane has this to say:

"There is quite a lot of evidence that colonies wintered entirely on sugar syrup, with no honey, perform less satisfactorily in the next active season than colonies wintered with some honey; this is one reason for not harvesting honey combs from the brood box(es)"

A few beekeepers here cage their queens three weeks before extraction. They then go into the hive and take every scrap of honey. Afterwards, the queen is released and the bees are fed entirely on sugar syrup. Generally, bees managed that way here that do make it through a winter don't do nearly as well the following season.


----------



## Lesli St. Clair (Jan 3, 2005)

So... one study says honey has no particular properties bees need, and another says bees don't winter as well on nothing but sugar. 

I wonder if it's the queen who doesn't do as well on syrup. Since most bees only live a few weeks during the active season, any lack in their diet is less likely to show up. But the queen's long life might demand more nutrition than a winter on pure sugar. 

Does anyone know: is the queen born with all the eggs she'll every have (like a human female) or does she "make" eggs?


----------



## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

Mr. bush what is your reson for likeing honey more than sugar. we werent going to pull all the honey and feed but all splits would get feed and before the hives go in to winter and when they come out of winter. but only if they need it.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I guess if there is a reason it's the lack of evidence of anything really being better in the long term.

My "reason" is simply that honey is what bees eat. Given a choice between artificial and natural, I prefer the natural. There have been many studies, most very short term with very small samples on different feed for bees. The real question, which I think has not really been answered by these short term small sample studies, is what the long term effect is.

The quote from Eva Crane above is one of the issues. It's not just a matter of how many die in the winter, but how well do they do next spring? What is their health all the next year?

I'm concerned, not only about trace minerals and other things that may be beneficial in the honey, but also the acidity of the honey vs. the lack of acidity of the sugar syrup. I would like to see some studies on the long term effects on the bees health of this difference. Also the long term effects of the acidity on the mites, that reproduce in the food made from this, the other brood diseases that reproduce in the food such as Chaulkbrood and AFB. Most microorganisms flourish at a particular pH. Most fungi flourish in a less acidic environment.

I guess the bottom line for me is; the bees were flourishing on just honey far before we all came along. I consider it doubtful that we can improve on it.

Since I often end up feeding sugar syrup anyway (bees that have starved to death are NOT healthy bees) I would love to know the answers to the above questions, such as what is the effect of the acidity (and possibly other constituents) on things like Nosema and Chalkbrood etc.

To me it's a lot like all the hoopla and proof that baby formula was superior to breast milk back in the 40's. What's natural has almost always, in the long run, proven to be what's best.


----------



## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> My "reason" is simply that honey is what bees eat.

Nope, that's completely wrong. Bees never eat
honey - they eat nectar, and must dilute honey
back to something akin to nectar to be able to
consume it. 

I like orange juice as much as the next guy, but
when someone hands me a can of frozen concentrated
orange juice, I'm not going to mistake it for the
more diluted juice "as nature provides it", nor
am I going to attribute magical powers to properties
that merely result from the concentration process.

The bees may not be able to explain this clearly
themselves, but they will starve to death standing
on an infinite supply of honey if water is
withheld.

> Given a choice between artificial and natural, 
> I prefer the natural.

OK, then "natural" would be to leave all the honey
on the hive, never harvest any, never feed in
spring, let many colonies starve, and let those
that survive build up their population on the
early spring flows, resulting in a large and
hungry population that reaches foraging age after
the flow is over.

Also, "natural" would require you to burn your
woodenware, and let the bees find trees in
which to nest. Natural would also mean none of
this "regression" you speak of - no fair forcing
the bees to do something.

No, wait - "natural" would be no bees at all,
as honey bees are not native to your area!!!!









So, no crop, no hives, no feeding or
emergency intervention (A sort of Star Trek
"Prime Directive" for bees), but worst of
all, no honey for you at all unless you
order it shipped in from overseas.

With no crop and no hives, beekeeping becomes
nothing more than what - a form of birdwatching?

I'm a beekeeper. I want to KEEP the bees, and
I will do anything that I can to make it easier
for them to "pay their rent" for the fine homes
I provide them. Its not "natural" in the least,
and it stopped being natural the moment that
someone go the bright idea of bringing a "bee gum"
home to save the long walk out to the bee tree.

> ...but also the acidity of the honey vs. the
> lack of acidity of the sugar syrup. I would 
> like to see some studies on the long term 
> effects on the bees health of this difference.

Here's some basic stuff to read to show you
that this has been looked at, over and over
again.

http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/bkCD/HBBiology/nutrition_supplements.htm
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar03/bees0303.htm

There's lots more out there to read on this issue,
but I assure you, if anyone could see any advantage
from any of the minor components in honey, there
would be people shouting it from the rooftops,
and every bee catalog would carry whatever the
research suggested would "help".


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>OK, then "natural" would be to leave all the honey
on the hive, never harvest any, never feed in
spring, let many colonies starve, and let those
that survive build up their population on the
early spring flows, resulting in a large and
hungry population that reaches foraging age after
the flow is over.... (and a lot of other nonsense)

A preference for what is natural over what is artificial should not be confused with a religious ferver to reject anything that is in any way "unnatural". You make a lot "leaps". I'm sure there is nothing natural about a table saw either, but I do enjoy the amount of work they save me. I also feed sugar syrup to my bees often. I would just prefer to leave them enough honey to get through the winter. Since Eva Crane seems to agree with me I will assume I'm in good company.

I'm merely saying that bees naturally overwinter on honey. Not sugar syrup, and for that matter, not nectar. And I am stating MY preference for what is natural over what is not.

To infer that bees don't eat honey is absurd. That they water it down is only relevant if no water is available. By that logic I could say humans don't actually eat crackers, since it's impossible to eat them without anything to drink. What you ACTUALLY eat is some paste of water and crackers that forms in your mouth from the saliva that came from the water you drank shortly before. I'm sorry, I don't buy it.


----------



## KyBee (Mar 1, 2005)

Michael Bush wrote: 


> I guess the bottom line for me is; the bees were flourishing on just honey far before we all came along. I consider it doubtful that we can improve on it.


Thank you, Michael, for saying it so well.

I am a total newbie with no dog in this fight, and will be feeding sugar syrup to my bees when they arrive, as do all my beekeeping mentors when necessary. But I trust cows more than chemists and I trust the creator more than scientists. The creator gave the bees honey so it seems like common sense. 

I was just at a bee school and sat through a class that Rob Mountain taught. He was saying not to get too caught up in the newfangled and "let's not forget to use our common sense" as he showed a slide of a feeder on the top bars that was nothing more than a sealed zip loc baggie full of thick syrup with a few small razor slits in the top side. Cheap, efficient, won't drown the bees, easy. Common sense.

Every time in my observation that we as a race and culture veer away from the natural to the "scientific" we end up coming back, sometimes the better for it, sometimes not.

That's not to discount research and trying new things. I've done research myself in grad school. We'd be in caves without wheels if we hadn't ventured out. It's all good. And I understand that High Fructose corn syrup--HFCS-55--is supposed to be very good?


----------



## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> To infer that bees don't eat honey is absurd.

"Absurd"? OK, test your theroy yourself.
Take any number of bees you wish, with or 
without a queen, and confine them with any 
amount of capped honey you wish, but deny 
them water, and control the environment so 
that humidity is not high enough to result
in condensation.

You will watch the bees die of starvation.

So much for your theroy.

> By that logic I could say humans don't actually 
> eat crackers...

No, humans certain can eat some number of crackers
without any liquid. Bees simply WON'T eat honey 
until after they have diluted it.

To keep things "natural", one must know a little
of basic bee biology and bee behavior, otherwise,
one can't know what the bees would do on their
own, and you have no idea how to get them to
do what you'd like them to do.


----------



## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

In that study that was mentioned up above where they took every scrap off honey out of the hive that they could find and the bees did worse the next season. If they took every scrap of honey they could find didn't they probably get most of the pollen also, which would explain why they didn't do as well the next season????


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>But, is it good to take ALL the honey from the hive and replace it ALL with sugar?

A wise old experienced told me a thought that I manage my hives to this day. What is stored in the brood chambers stays, and everything else ontop is yours,...

>>I guess the bottom line for me is; the bees were flourishing on just honey far before we all came along. I consider it doubtful that we can improve on it.

I agree Micheal, but it all depends on the wintering situations. 

Indoor wintering beekeepers here prefer to have their hives on surip, it provides a less stressful environment for the bees to live on. Thats not a theory, its a fact. 

Outdoor winter managers as myself prefer a bit of both. I feed surip to mainly bulk up the hive for winter, and am happy to heft a fall hive with plenty of honey stores in it. I think the bees last longer on honey during active times early in spring. The surip which is stored in the bottom and center top brood chamber gets used up during cold spells early to mid winter, as said before here is easier to access and use during cold weather.


>>Bees never eat honey - they eat nectar, and must dilute honey

You are over analizing that it a bit, eh Jim?

>>No, wait - "natural" would be no bees at all,
as honey bees are not native to your area!!!! [Smile] 

Ha, that is a fact that alot of people just dont realize sometimes
To keep bees from one end of the country to the other, we have to assist and encourage the bees to perform in the manner we expect them to. Rules for one area of the country is not neccisarily ture for the other. So, the superiourity of honey to surip, or surip to honey is really releative to your area of beekeeping


----------



## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

If someone that discounts science and prefers "natural" reads this, it will make little difference to them, but from a scientific standpoint, from the entomology dept at the Univ of GA, there is no difference, except cost and work, between leaving honey for bees and taking it all and feeding. This is based on several years over many hives in a controlled study. Also, and this directed to no one here in particular, I find it odd that those that scream "do it natural" the loudest, many different situations, reject the use of many natural processes that have been harnessed using science to make the process useable to man...nuclear power (you know...the sun for example) and some genetically engineered foods...genetics would change over many years naturally, and usually in a good way. Genetic engineering simply speeds the process and discards unuseful results.

BubbaBob


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>"Absurd"? OK, test your theroy yourself.

My theory? What theory? That bees eat honey? I can't believe we are having this conversation.

>Take any number of bees you wish, with or
without a queen, and confine them with any
amount of capped honey you wish, but deny
them water, and control the environment so
that humidity is not high enough to result
in condensation.

I did NOT say they wouldn't die if you deprive them of water. You will die if deprived of water and you can't eat your food for very long without it either. They STILL eat honey. To say that bees don't eat honey is still absurd.

>So much for your theroy.

My theory of what? I don't disagree that they can't live without water. I don't disagree that they need water to consume honey. But if bees don't consume honey, then where does it go? Why do they store it?

>No, humans certain can eat some number of crackers
without any liquid. Bees simply WON'T eat honey
until after they have diluted it.

If you don't drink water for some time, you will not be able to eat crackers. A someone who has gone without water for four days on a number of occasions, I can assure you if I confine you in a room full of crackers with no water, you will not eat very many of them and if the confinement lasts long enough you will die leaving many uneaten crackers. What does this prove? That people don't eat crackers?

Are we actually discussing whether or not bees eat honey?


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

This is a good URL and I intend to bookmark it for future reference. 
http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/bkCD/HBBiology/nutrition_supplements.htm

It does not say 'over and over again' though that sugar is superior to honey for winter feed. It says only this:

"Cane or beet sugar, isomerized corn syrup, and type-50 sugar syrup are satisfactory substitutes for honey in the natural diet of honey bees."

I wasn't able to access the other URL listed.


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Earlier I quoted Eva Crane's remarks on feeding bees entirely on sugar syrup. It has now been mentioned as a study. It wasn't. That was only a remark she made and she didn't list citations, etc. (Still I'm willing to take a leap of faith that she knows what she's talking about.)
After I made some comments about wintering problems of bees here in Alaska that were wintered entirely on syrup, someone later mentioned that as a study. It wasn't a study; just what has been observed here. How often, on these goups, do we read the phrase: "Studies have shown..."?  

>If they took every scrap of honey they could find didn't they probably get most of the pollen also,

probably at least a good deal of it.

>which would explain why they didn't do as well the next season????

it very well might have a lot to do with it.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>It has now been mentioned as a study.

I'm not sure where youre referring to someone referring to it as a study. I have reread the above and don't see it. I certainly wasn't saying it was a study. But I share Eva's opinion and I think that a study should take into account, how well they do the next year, and not just how many die over winter.

But also, Eva said "There is quite a lot of evidence..." which is not something she is prone to do lightly.


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>I certainly wasn't saying it was a study. 
No Michael, not you. Someone else just said it in passing.

>I think that a study should take into account, how well they do the next year, and not just how many die over winter.

Right. It doesn't do much good to overwinter bees if they perform poorly the following year, unless you just want some pets.

>But also, Eva said "There is quite a lot of evidence..." which is not something she is prone to do lightly.

I agree.


----------



## dickm (May 19, 2002)

>>>>>hi-fructose corn syrup is made by chemically converting
potato starch into glucose >>>>>

Amongst all this brainpower, am I the only one that thinks the above is a funny way to make corn syrup? Maybe I'm missing something?

Dick Marron


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Don't know how I missed that one. No wonder they call it corn syrup!


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Well, it can't be called hi-fructose potato syrup. That doesn't even sound good.


----------



## Lesli St. Clair (Jan 3, 2005)

I'm the one who said "study" in passing. I stand corrected.


----------



## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

wow this got a little out of hand. if your right Jfischer why do bees even make honey? i think i like the way ian does his feeding: if it needs it give it and dont take the honey from the brood boxes.


----------



## Lesli St. Clair (Jan 3, 2005)

> why do bees even make honey?


Because plain water is just soooo boring. Honey gives it a little kick.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>wow this got a little out of hand.

Fun, eh? You go, guys!

If George Imery said the sky is blue, I'd believe him.


----------



## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> why do bees even make honey?

Because nectar, or even honey that is not
"evaporated off" enough, will ferment, and
bees instinctively "know" that honey will
keep for long periods. Its like making
tomato paste, canning it, and storing it
in the basement.

> wow this got a little out of hand

Yeah, it is hard work to keep the myths
firmly stomped into the pavement with the
muddy boot of science.









> if your right Jfischer

It is not me who did the work, so I can't
take credit for "being right", nor can
I accept blame for being picky about what
some might dismiss as mere semantics.

Even a hive heavy with stores still needs
a "jump start" in early spring in the form
of fresh pollen and fresh "nectar" to get
the queen laying. You can trap real pollen
and freeze it over winter, but the "nectar"
has to be man-made, as the whole point is to
start feeding well before anything is in bloom.

When this "liquid bee diet" from the USDA bee labs
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/mar03/bees0303.htm
hits the market, there are likely to be similar
arguments to those offered in this thread posed
about "real pollen" having "trace components" that
are lacking in the "bee diet" mix. 

The trick is to read the published papers, or
at least the bee magazine articles about the
work.


----------



## Lesli St. Clair (Jan 3, 2005)

> Yeah, it is hard work to keep the myths
> firmly stomped into the pavement with the
> muddy boot of science. [Smile]


I missed the science part. Is it that bees winter better on sugar and don't eat honey, like we don't eat tomato paste?


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>I missed the science part.

me too....


----------



## ikeepbees (Mar 8, 2003)

I checked my hives today and the bees were hauling honey out of the hives and dumping it off of the landing boards.


----------



## John Russell (Aug 8, 2003)

Although we cant honestly state wether bees have a preferance over sugar or honey ( Preference is a human condition ), they WILL choose. 
They WILL choose, because instinct will tell them wich will provide a better chance for survival.

So spill a cup of sugar, dry or syrup on the ground. Spill a cup of honey on the ground.

Wich is gathered more voraciously? 
Why are stores of honey defended, whilst flowers are not? Or even open feeders?

I have always found that my mistakes usualy begin when I start to think of non human things ( like bees...) are thinking in terms and parameters that I'm more familer with. I've also found that my bees know more about survival, and making honey, then I do.

My 2 cents.









John Russell


----------



## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

Lesli and Dick, re: the science part...from a conversation I had 2 hours ago with Dr Jamie Ellis, UGA Bee Lab, Entomology Dept at the University of Georgia...a bee dept I consider one of the top 3 in the country...

Me: Dr Ellis (I'd say Jamie, but this is an official question for public consumption), many beekeepers swear by leaving the first super of the season on the hive as winter stores, and only harvesting the second and later supers. An equal number say to pull all supers and harvest the honey and feed the bees to make up for the lack of early honey for winter. What say you?

Jamie: Mr Hayles (I'd say Bob, but this is an official answer for public consumption), pull all the honey, for three reasons. First, a super of honey is about 30 lbs of honey, and you can get four dollars a pound for it, meaning you are leaving 120 dollars of honey on the hive, while feeding a hive will cost you 15-20 dollars to feed.

Me: But Jamie...er...I mean Dr Ellis...what about ill effects on the bees.....

Jamie: Shut up a second Mr Hayles...let me give you reason number two. If you leave honey for the bees, they will have survival stores, but brood laying will shut down. If you feed, you get brood laying all winter and go into early honey flow with more bees, ergo, more early honey collection. In your case, since you favor Carnolians with their generally smaller winter numbers, this means you get more honey, faster. It applies to all races across the board, but especially to Carnolians and Russians. Also, if you are dead set on giving them SOME honey despite the science, when your sourwood quits the end of July, you will have goldenrod 2-4 weeks later. Let them have that since it is such nasty stuff (highly technical term) that no sensible human would want it at any price.

Me: So, Dr Ellis, I make more money and have a stronger, healthier hive coming out of spring if I pull all honey, except the late goldenrod, which would sell poorly anyway. Are there any downsides?

Jamie: Yes, you have to work a little harder because you have to feed a little more to make up for the honey during the winter...but then, you farmers sit on your butts watching TV all winter anyway...you have the time.

So, it seems science says pull all honey, make more money, have healthier colonies, larger colonies in the spring, and get off our butts a bit more during the winter.

BubbaBob


----------



## Lesli St. Clair (Jan 3, 2005)

> If you leave honey for the bees, they will have survival stores, but brood laying will shut down. If you feed, you get brood laying all winter and go into early honey flow with more bees, ergo, more early honey collection.


Upstate NY bees are not going to raise brood all winter, on any feed. 

And if you pull all the honey out of the brood nest, then you've also pulled the pollen, in which case, there's nothing for the brood to eat. Unless you feed a substitute.

And there's nothing wrong with goldenrod honey.


----------



## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Upstate NY bees are not going to raise brood all
> winter, on any feed.

Certainly not, but as it is now March, you are sure
to find a small patch of brood sometime this month
(if not already).

If you "jump start" the colony, you will give the
bees the resources they need to raise more brood
than they would otherwise.

> And if you pull all the honey out of the brood nest...

I don't think anyone has advocated pulling honey
from the brood nest. Just supers.

> you've also pulled the pollen, in which case,
> there's nothing for the brood to eat. Unless 
> you feed a substitute.

I feed syrup AND pollen trapped the prior season,
as fresh-frozen pollen beats the heck out of the
old (often moldy) pollen the bees stored.


----------



## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

lesli, I said pull all SUPERS, not all honey...and I said feed...not feed just 2:1...

BubbaBob


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Lesli, I dont think anyone responded to your question: 
>Does anyone know: is the queen born with all the eggs she'll every have (like a human female) or does she "make" eggs?

Her eggs are produced whenever she is laying. She can produce over a thousand eggs/day which amounts to nearly her own body weight in egg production. Its the amount of sperm held in her spermatheca, rather than the number of eggs which determines her useful life span. (At least thats what the books say. Now REAL SCIENCE (hehehe) or long-winded rhetoric may prove the books to be wrong.)

I see you are in Alpine, NY. Im leaving tomorrow for the eastern part of the state (Fort Ann) to do some maple syrup-ing, so I hope the sugar vs. honey discussion gets settled before I get back.


----------



## Lesli St. Clair (Jan 3, 2005)

> lesli, I said pull all SUPERS, not all honey


Sorry! I misread. Somewhere in this thread there was talk of yanking it all and giving syrup. And your friend said something about insisting on leaving any honey... So I thought he was advocating the same thing.

At the moment, I kind of hope the girls don't have brood, since the temps are in the 20sF and below. We are having one strange winter, with temps in the 50s up to New Years, and now a March with a foot of snow and freezing days and nights. 

I'm not arguing with supplemental feeding spring and /or fall as needed. As Michael said, dead bees aren't healthy bees. I also won't argue with pulling all the supers. Here in NY, we mostly overwinter in two deeps, since the girls need 60+ lbs of... carbohydrates to get through the winter.

But for the sake of any newbies out there, I wanted to point out that bees in Georgia may brood all winter, but you can't expect that (and wouldn't want it) in the Frozen North.

Since spring feeding (before a nectar flow) stimulates brood rearing, you can't stop until there is real nectar--otherwise, you may be encouraging a population explorsion only to cut off their food supply. Not nice. 

I also wonder--if I spring feed, and encourage brood rearing, and then (as so often happens here), there's a prolonged cold snap, won't I lose a bunch of that brood, if there aren't enough bees to cover it? Or worse, might I not lose much of the colony, as they try to cover brood when they really should be in a cluster? 

These are real question, by the way.


----------



## Lesli St. Clair (Jan 3, 2005)

> Her eggs are produced whenever she is laying. She can produce over a thousand eggs/day which amounts to nearly her own body weight in egg production.


So, not only at the start of her life, but during it, the queen requires different nutrition than a worker who will live 4-6 weeks during the active season. I knew about the sperm part, but hadn't read about egg production.


----------



## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

A late cold snap will cost some brood, but that is brood you wouldn't have had anyway without feeding, so no net loss.

No, the bees will not freeze themselves to death trying to cover more brood than possible...as said earlier in the thread, bees are survivors.

BubbaBob


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Dick, I hope that you enjoy your visit to Fort Ann. We had a short run alittle over 2 weeks ago. The temps the last week or so have been too cold around here for any flow. Lows around 10F w/ highs around 30F. 
The weather is supposed to hold cold for a while still. However, the weather is the only job that you can be almost always wrong at and keep it.


----------



## vqarabs (Dec 16, 2003)

I've heard a lot of commercial guys going to dry sugar on waxed paper placed on top of the frames. Cut a hole in the center of the waxed paper so bees can come straight up and dump out a cup of sugar in a circular motion around the center. I'm told the dry sugar this time of year aids in combatting nosema - "dries" things up.


----------



## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Guys, there is an authoritative study on the life span of bees when feed different types of sugar. The study was done after beekeepers started using HFC syrup. The study tested the life span of caged bees (winter) when feed on grape sugar, sucrose, HFC, and honey. 

The results ended up with these basic results.
Grape sugar had the highest mortality rate and actually shorted the life span of bees.
Honey and HFC performed basically the same.
Sucrose was the best and produced a significantly longer life span.

Even though sucrose is better than HFC, I use HFC because it is cheaper and easier to use.


----------



## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> I also wonder--if I spring feed, and encourage brood rearing, and then (as so often happens here), there's a prolonged cold snap, won't I lose a bunch of that brood, if there aren't enough bees to cover it?


Timing is everything in beekeeping, and one must
make a decision in advance about warm periods
followed by cold snaps. Here in VA, we have a
rare case of unmelted snow still on the ground
after a week, and 20 degrees at 8:30am, but more
Daffodils somehow go into bloom each day.

But one must start somewhere, and trust the bees
to not make a larger brood area than they can
handle. A local bee association meeting would
help here, as it would reveal a rough consensus
of when others in your area start to feed.



> Or worse, might I not lose much of the colony, as they try to cover brood when they really should be in a cluster?


This is not going to happen, at least in my
experience. The bees will abandon brood to
cluster rather than die in a futile attempt
to protect brood.


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

>At the moment, I kind of hope the girls don't have brood, since the temps are in the 20sF and below. We are having one strange winter, with temps in the 50s up to New Years, and now a March with a foot of snow and freezing days and nights. 

Actually, I would say that there is brood already and has been for a few weeks with Italians, even here in the frozen north. NWC and Russians start a little later and slower, but they will have brood very shortly, again if not already.

>I'm not arguing with supplemental feeding spring and /or fall as needed. As Michael said, dead bees aren't healthy bees. I also won't argue with pulling all the supers. Here in NY, we mostly over winter in two deeps, since the girls need 60+ lbs of... carbohydrates to get through the winter.

I look to have 100lbs on the hive for winter 2 deeps and a medium or 3 deeps. I also feed, feed, and feed some more in the fall, I set up hives for the winter with granulated sugar on paper on the top bars w/ an empty feeder box and this whole setup wrapped. 

>But for the sake of any newbies out there, I wanted to point out that bees in Georgia may brood all winter, but you can't expect that (and wouldn't want it) in the Frozen North.

You dont want a cluster anchored with temps such that they can not move to get stores during the day. But, with temps in the 20s and 30s on sunny days the cluster can move and get stores. However, you want new bees being raised because the population has been diwindling since the end of fall nectar flow. That is unless you feed a lite syrup in the fall to boost the hives young bee population for winter.

>Since spring feeding (before a nectar flow) stimulates brood rearing, you can't stop until there is real nectar--otherwise, you may be encouraging a population explorsion only to cut off their food supply. Not nice. 

Once, you start to feed, keep feeding till you put your supers on. 

>I also wonder--if I spring feed, and encourage brood rearing, and then (as so often happens here), there's a prolonged cold snap, won't I lose a bunch of that brood, if there aren't enough bees to cover it? Or worse, might I not lose much of the colony, as they try to cover brood when they really should be in a cluster?

That all depends on how cold, how long, how much brood, if your hives are wrapped or not, if it is sunny or not, if they can get to food or not. Most winter / spring loses (around here) are in March / early April when brood rearing starts and the cluster gets anchored and they can not or do not move to get stores. 
There are two different situations here, (#1) cold chilled brood will be removed and replaced. This only sets them back from the stand point of where they would have been if the brood had not been chilled. So compared to if you had not stimulated and they were not there to chill, you actually lost nothing. 
The other (#2) situation is the bigger problem, If it is cold and they need to cluster they will. However, if you have a cluster anchored by brood, and they can not move to get food, you could lose adult bees or even the entire cluster. 
The second problem is the main reason why I wrap my hives for winter. In the past the vast majority of my winter loses, where actually spring loses in March and early April. They were cold starved clusters anchored by brood. Since, wrapping and spring feeding this spring situation has been almost non-existent.


----------



## hobbyfarm (Feb 18, 2005)

I know this is not the thread for this BUT:

> some genetically engineered foods...genetics would change over many years naturally, and usually in a good way. Genetic engineering simply speeds the process and discards unuseful results.

Not in a million years of evolution are bacterial genes (Bacillus thuringiensis) going to blend with the genetic material of field corn. Such human tinkering with a genome, just because we can, has already let to unexpected consequences: monarch butterfly populations have been adversely affected by Bt transgenes in corn. And the effects on other non-targeted organisms, such as soil microbes, remain a concern. There seems to be a clear division in thinking between the US (where $ = God) and the European Union. The US is embracing the wholesale use of GMO's while the EU is taking the approach that far more study into the effects needs to take place.

And I won't go into the risks of reducing biodiversity and the dependence on the mega-agribusinesses as the sole source of seed.

It's all about corporate profit today and to hell with tomorrow.

Kevin

No GMO's for this farm boy.


----------



## Lesli St. Clair (Jan 3, 2005)

So Jim says they'll abandon brood rather than die, and MountainCamp says they can end up cold starved clusters anchored by brood. I love beekeeping!

Well, here is my strategy: I fed like crazy in the fall, left the goldenrod/aster in the brood nest, combined two colonies after a late Sept swarm, and put in a sugar board a few weeks ago. The hive is wrapped, and in a sheltered but sunny area. The girls are active on warm days. It's too cold to check for brood, so I don't know whether they've started to raise the next generation.

Magnet-man, do you have a source for that study? I'd like to read it.


----------



## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

vqarabs, the cost differential between dry sugar and HFCS dictats, to me at least, feeding HFCS. 17 cents a pound vs 20-25 cents. I don't think the dry sugar makes any difference for nosema, but then that is not much of a problem around here with out weather.

Magnet, when feeding, besides HFCS, I use pollen replacement patties using sucrose, Bee-Pro, and HFCS, so the benefits of sucrose are there. When you add that up, it probably equals or maybe surpasses the cost of dry sugar, but not by much, and is still money in your pocket when considering the 120 dollars you got for the last super of honey you didn't leave on the hive as stores.

BubbaBob


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Lesli, I think that Jim and I are saying basically the same thing. I dont want to speak for Jim, so if my explanation of the situation does not cover your thoughts Jim, please correct me on your point. 
A cluster can be anchored by several things, brood, the queen, and hopefully food. During a warm day, workers my move around the inside of the hive moving honey and pollen stores, collecting water, using feeders, or whatever. But, as the temps fall and the hive cools, they move back together in their cluster.
When it gets colder the cluster pulls in tighter with the queen, hopefully still in contact with food, and hopefully able to cover any brood.
However, they will leave the brood on the outer edges of the brood nest / cluster to keep the queen, inner brood and cluster as a whole warm. They will not keep a loose cluster in an effort to cover all of the brood, only to have the entire cluster chill, freeze, and die.
The situation that I referred to occurs in late winter / early spring. It happens during a cold snap and one that lasts for a while, the cluster has pulled way from or eaten the available food within reach, and since it has a inner core of brood and the queen, that they are anchored to, they starve.
This is a situation that I have seen in spring. Whether it is restricted to northern areas, where brood rearing starts with spring a long way off or not, I dont know as I have never kept bees, where it is warm. I know that Ian, has mentioned the same type of problems with his hives in Canada.
Locally, whether you feed to stimulate or not, by sometime in March there is nectar / pollen from maples and a few other early sources. This will get the queen laying if they can take advantage of it with the weather. March and April can still be very cold and wet, this can cause the above situation.


----------



## Lesli St. Clair (Jan 3, 2005)

Thanks for clarifying. That makes sense. Yes, the maples will bloom soon, but until the temps go up, I can't see the bees taking advantage of it. As I said, it's been an odd winter.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>A late cold snap will cost some brood, but that is brood you wouldn't have had anyway without feeding, so no net loss.


Cost some brood, and the good part of your hive, if not all of it. 

>>Such human tinkering with a genome, just because we can, has already let to unexpected consequences

Really its not as bad as you are lead to believe. Genes are all made of the same stuff, and just mixed and matched. Wheather its from a fish or a flower, whats the difference. They are only taking specific detailes, not the whole thing,...

But I do agree with you that the focus of all this new technology is on making corperate industrys rich!!


----------



## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

<<Cost some brood, and the good part of your hive, if not all of it.>>

Hasn't happened to me yet, but then I am the beneficary of relatively mild winters.

BubbaBob


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Brood rearing demands a termendious amount of energy, food and nutrition. Once the hive starts excelerating into brooding, huge amounts of resources are needed and expected, and stresses are placed on the bees. To have a cold spell force a hive to retreat off of brood is bad news. They will fight to keep the brood till almost to late, salvage all the brood they can and keep the bees. In the mean time the hive has lost its resources, and life in its old wintering bees. 

Dont encourage excellerated brooding till your first pollen flow. The trees know best


----------



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

How do I determine the pollen flow for my location. Newbee here....... I am getting my Nucs the first week of May. My hope was to start feeding the heck out of them for increase. Should I wait???


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Are they bringing pollen in? 

I'm talking in reference to our climates tendency to throw a cold artic cell at us right near the end of winter/on set of spring. I find that rushing a hive into spring is deadly


----------



## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<the first week of May. My hope was to start feeding the heck out of them for increase. Should I wait???>>

You should be well into your pollen flow by then.


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

>>A late cold snap will cost some brood, but that is brood you wouldn't have had anyway without feeding, so no net loss.

>Cost some brood, and the good part of your hive, if not all of it. 

Since, I have wrapped my hives, I have not lost a hive in spring from a cold snap. However, as with everything with beekeeping it is timing and location.
I have put on lite syrup already and pollen substitute. I did a week ago. Our average temps in Feburary are 25F, and for March 28F or so. So, the days may get into the upper 20's, 30's, and even 40's. With these daytime temps, sun, and the wrapping, the cluster can cover their brood and still get stores.


----------



## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

MountainCamp,

When do you unwrap your hives?


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I usually un-wrap sometime the beginning of April, first or second week.


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

>>Yes, the maples will bloom soon, but until the temps go up, I can't see the bees taking advantage of it. As I said, it's been an odd winter.

The red (soft) maples will bloom when the weather warms up again for a few days. There are usually a few days during the red maples that they can get out and work. The hard maples will not bloom for quite a few weeks yet.


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Patrick, I hope from your question, that your hives made it through so far.
They are almost there, the days are getting longer and the sun stronger. The solar gain this time of year makes a big difference.
The weather looks to hold cold for a while longer, but it will not take much warm weather when it brakes to get things popping.
I put feeders on the hives the other day and check the ones at home today. They have only taken a few quarts each so far, but that will also pick up as the weather warms.


----------



## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

MountainCamp, Thanks for your concern. I've lost 3 out of 7 so far, which is not wonderful, but not too unexpected considering that they started as 4 packages late last year of lc bees on lc foundation with lots of mites. 
I should have recombined some splits that didn't take off too well (perhaps because I gave them too much space filled with foundation).

I put feeders and pollen substitute pattys on Saturday, and am looking forward to enough of a flow that I can introduce small cell foundation into the brood nest.


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Good luck this season, I hope that you get the results desired from small cell. 
I have not tried SC yet and with all things considered, I don't see myself doing it in the near future.
I went into winter with 22 hives, so far lost (1), which was my doing as much as theirs. It was a hive that had problems most of the summer and did not get settled till late.
I put a medium of new permacomb on them with granulated sugar in it. I did not take into consideration the gap between the top / bottom of the frames. They moved up and then over, however they never crossed over the gap into the permacomb. 
If I had cut the box down or just set them up with sugar on the top bars, they most likely would have made it.
I usually have not had the problems with losses that others seem to have. When I have, I have been able to identify the problem and correct it.
I think that winter losses usually have a number of factors at the root cause, most of them us, as beekeepers.
I think that winter losses in general are attributed to mites far too often, and we don't therefore learn from our mistakes.


----------



## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

I'll take the good luck thanks, I can use it. 

Congrats on your overwintering success.

It was nice to see the bees out flying today. No pollen coming in yet though.

I don't mean to blame my failings on mites, but mite control seems like a critical element to success. What do you do to control mites?

(We are getting a little OT here.)


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Reading your post, I know that you have looked a all of the contributing factors.
For the last 4 years spearmint and wintergreen oils in the spring and fall feeds.
Last December I tried the OA trickle method of treatment during a warm day.

I put out some trays of pollen sub during lunch and topped off the feeders.
The maples are swelling and a few more days like today, they should pop. 
I have a few populor trees and they are opening up today. It will be a few days till they are open enough for the bees to use, but it is a start.


----------



## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

Patrick, mite control is changing this year...hopefully.

A new fungal based mite control product should be on the market by fall treatment time.

BubbaBob


----------



## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

Thanks BubbaBob, I'll be watching for it.
But if smallcell works, perhaps I won't need it.


----------



## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<A new fungal based mite control product should be on the market by fall treatment time.>>

I'm skeptical of that timeline. Have you heard anything that would change my mind?


----------



## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

That info is from Dr Jamie Ellis, Univ of GA entomology dept., bee lab.

The product has been developed, tested, approved, and all that is left is packaging/distribution...it was almost out in time for elimination of chemicals this spring, but didn't quite make it, but will be on the shelves by fall.

BubbaBob


----------



## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

That would be fantastic!! Any word on price?


----------



## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

BubbaBob-
Dr Keith Delaplane said the same. A new fungal based mite control product would on the market soon.He also mentioned that starvation is the number one hive killer (to my surprise).


Terry


----------



## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

dcross, nothing on price so far...

Terry, Keith (Delaplane) and Jamie are two of the most knowledgeable bee people I know, and I find it especially refreshing that they approach the science (and art) of beekeeping from a practical, useable standpoint.

Also it soesn't hurt that I see them weekly and get free expert advice...LOL

BubbaBob


----------



## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

BubbaBob

Next time you see Jamie or Keith inquire about the Russian Queens(Keith thinks their the future.


Terry


----------



## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

I talked to Keith's associate Dr Jamie Ellis last Friday for a couple of hours, and one thing we discussed was bee races. Jamie confirmed my opinion that Russians and Carniolans were essentially equal in most respects, with two exceptions...Russians tend to be a tad more defensive and are also mite resistant.

The new fungal mite treatment coming this fall will negate the Russian advantage, leaving equal bees in colony size, spring build up quickness, overwinter colony size, and honey production. It is Jamie's opinion that either is optimal for beekeepers here in the south, especially due to the small overwinter colony size...less feeding if you do as I and pull ALL honey.

Russians will, of course, still be more defensive.

I have had Russians, but ran into a problem with supply this year and after talking to Jamie have decided to go with Carniolans. I re-queened last year so it will be next year before I change over the hives I have.

BubbaBob


----------



## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

I would think that the USDA folks working on
the Russian program would take sharp exception
to Jamie's generalization, as would the entire
NWC team in Ohio.









> The new fungal mite treatment coming this fall...

I am glad to see so much confidence in M.a.
("the fungal treatment"), but I must point out
that to date, the success reported initially
has not been duplicated. While there may be
a consensus on "what caused the problem", it
will take an actual successful field trial to
verify that Metazarium will in fact be everything
it has been claimed to be, and to refute the
disappointing field trials of 2004.

I sure hope these folks know something that the
rest of us don't, or there are going to be some
very unhappy beekeepers.


----------



## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

Jim, since I am not the one doing the research I cannot personally vouch for the information Dr Ellis gave me, but, on the other hand, I've not found Jamie to have lied to me before...I don't see why he would start now.

BubbaBob


----------



## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

I would certainly not accuse anyone of lying,
I just wonder where all the enthusiasm
is coming from.

I hope that they are 100% correct.

I just have no facts to be the basis for confidence,
nor have I heard anyone else offer any.


----------



## eric101 (Mar 8, 2005)

Hi - I'm new here. Three years with bees. I live in Loudoun County, VA. I had three hives at end of year. One (the strongest) just up and bolted. Left a whole super of honey behind. The second was week going into winter (from Varroa) and died - I think from starvation as they were up at top of super I left on when I found them. Cluster was softball size.

The third was week going in but I requeened at last minute and they are strong now. As each hive died, I moved the left over honey supers over to this hive. I now have three supers on this hive. They were flying yesterday - it was near 70 - and bringing in pollen. The queen (spotted her) is in the lowest super and there is some capped brood.

It is going to be really cold the rest of this week but I intend to feed with 1:1 syrup after this week. Do you think I should remove the two suppers still pretty much filled with honey and put them back on the other hives? I intend to put packages in the other two hives and I thought this would help them?

Please note that I treated with mite strips at end of season with honey in the supers and I intended to give these supers over to each hive as added brood chambers/honey storage areas.

Any advice would be helpful on whether I am going in the right direction.

Eric


----------



## eric101 (Mar 8, 2005)

Sorry for the spelling errors...

Eric


----------



## eric101 (Mar 8, 2005)

Also had a question about feeding syrup. Are you syrup feeders feeding in the middle of winter? How do you keep the syrup from freezing and spilling over the brood frames? I am assuming you are using bucket feeders on top of colony??

Eric


----------



## BubbaBob (Jan 18, 2005)

I feed all winter and early spring since I pull ALL honey supers to max profit...syrup is cheaper than leaving honey on, and does just as well. I use internal frame feeders.

BubbaBob


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I feed using jar feeders on the top bars. 
I started feeding on the Feb 19. 
I would guess that our February and March temperatures are colder than any you might see in VA.
It is 13F with blowing snow, I like yesterday better with temps in the 40's.
It has been as low as 4F since I started feeding again.
Syrup freezes at a significantly lower temperature than water. The exact temperature will depend on the concentration of sugar in the water.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

MountainCamp,

Feeding in that low temp, are the bees still consuming the liquid? I assume your hives are protected from the top with insulation and a wrap, how exactly do you have your feeder jars on with the wrap?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I feed all winter and early spring since I pull ALL honey supers to max profit...syrup is cheaper than leaving honey on, and does just as well. I use internal frame feeders.

And you can feed all winter in Georgia. Even if I had feed in a frame feeder all winter they can't take much of it in the winter here. Occasionally it's warm enough, but usually it's not.


----------



## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I set my hives up for winter with an empty rough cut pine box on top, then the inner and outer covers.
This is all wrapped with black felt paper. 
When I am done with my fall feeing, I place granulated sugar on paper on the top bars.
The paper and sugar serve two functions, to absorb moisture and feed.
When I start my late winter feeding I just place the jar feeders on the top bars. The bees can hold cluster and don't have to move above the top bars to use the feeder.
They don't use the feeders much below 20F / -7C. Above this temperature and with good sun they use the feeders well. The warmer and sunny the better.
Some picture are on the page 3 of the photos @ www.mountaincampfarm.com


----------

