# Is SC business plan, small sell?



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

You wiley devil Barry. Oh well what can I say? The words are mine. Incoming!!!!!!
Actually in re-reading the SC exchange I missed your question to me, no matter hope it turns out to be a constructive thread.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I believe it is possible for a FEW individuals to make a profit of adequate size to support themselves solely from treatment free beekeeping. Unfortunately, with CCD, it will be quite difficult for those that are not adept at epidemic control and sterilization techniques. "We ain't in Kansas any more". Mites alone are not that big a deal, it is getting past CCD and being treatment free, that is the tough nut to crack. 

It will help if that individual can bring allot of family history, and family experience, to help with the sell. Of course, the target clientele will not be blue collar, but rather the "carriage trade" , and the honey priced accordingly. 

I see no future in treatment free pollination. No one would pay extra for it, that I am aware of.

Did that sound too much like "Mein Kampf"?

Crazy Roland


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Well, I've often had the same question. I don't get my income from bees, so this isn't something I have to be concerned about. But you and other's certainly do. Dee is the only one I know of actually making their living off of SC beekeeping. What are the real numbers? I don't know. Not sure how one in your situation could realistically convert over.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I'm looking forward to Seeing Michael Bush go full time. I will certainly be supporting his business.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

BArry wrote:

Not sure how one in your situation could realistically convert over. 


To whom was that addressed?

Crazy Roland


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Is this the place... where it would not be too negative - to ask about the nature of the Lusby operation? Is her primary source of income Honey... Bees... or is she mainly involved with lecturing, writing, or something else we might not define as typical of a commercial operation. I am not asking this with any kind of agenda... just that if there is an SC commercial operation of some type out there... then there is something to be learned.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Roland said:


> I see no future in treatment free pollination. No one would pay extra for it, that I am aware of.


I'm reading a possible assumption here, why must one pay extra? Is not one's extra payment the lack of treating required?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Regarding Dee, she may receive revenue from side ventures (speaking, etc.), but selling her honey has been the main source when I last talked with her. Who knows if there are other side business interests (rental income, family monies, etc.). Then to get a real handle on things, one would have to know if that income is suitable for someone else's lifestyle. Lots of variables.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Roland, I was addressing Jim's post.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Thank you.

Roland


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Barry said:


> Regarding Dee, she may receive revenue from side ventures (speaking, etc.), but selling her honey has been the main source when I last talked with her.


So if you take away the honey... she goes bankrupt? That would tell me she has real skin in the game, and therefore a fully qualified commercial SC operation.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I wouldn't draw that conclusion. I have no idea what her situation is, but people can have all kinds of "other revenue" that would allow them to still be financially secure should their work slow down. Another factor is what kind of overhead does one have. A bad year would severely hurt a guy that has buildings and equipment he's paying on versus a guy who has it all paid for. Just too many variables.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The underlying question is whether or not small cell is viable in a commercial operation. The corollary question is whether the cost of treatments can be offset by conversion to small cell.

Small cell is just as viable as large cell in a commercial operation. Essentially, there is no cost to converting to small cell given that you work with the bees to get them down to the size and that you do not spend up front for the conversion. In other words, as combs need renewal, do it with small cell and the expense is the same as it would have been with large cell.

If you can run the small cell operation entirely treatment free, then obviously you forego the cost of treatments. This means you can avoid roughly $15 per colony per year in up front cost of treatments (labor plus materials) and you can avoid the long term but hard to quantify effects that treatments have on the bees.

From my perspective, I really enjoy being able to produce honey without putting dangerous chemicals in the hive.

DarJones


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

As I understand Dee has sold all her property in town to buy the ranch so I'm sure she is not collecting any rent. She speaks at maybe three or four meetings a year, and I doubt they pay more than a few hundred. She makes her living selling honey.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Re;
Mites alone are not that big a deal.
Can you explain the above statement.
Thanks,


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Barry said:


> I wouldn't draw that conclusion. I have no idea what her situation is, but people can have all kinds of "other revenue" Just too many variables.


Yea,,, I agree. It is definitely a qualitative judgement. The more I hear.. the more I suspect.. that she would fit into that category I would call a Commercial SC Bee Keeper.

Now if someone comes up with a migratory SC one... , but I just don't see how they could exist.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Considering the losses I've taken moving in the past, I tend to agree. However Dean says they exist and I'm still looking forward to getting the details.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

jim lyon said:


> Oldtimer makes some good points and they are points I have carefully avoided because I respect the attempts that many are making to be treatment free but since it's out there I do think the issue of whether there is actually any successful business model out there of a profitable self sustaining treatment free operation for those actually wanting to make a living at it. I'm talking about someone who is earning a living by selling honey, bees or pollination income and not the side businesses of writing, teaching or lecturing about being treatment free. I don't mean this in any way as a criticism of those folks and their passion for keeping bees as they see fit, I just think the question of economic viability is a fair one to be addressed on this forum if perhaps not in this particular thread.



Paradigm is wrong.


Small Cell / Treatment free / Natural beekeeping and maximizing profits are completely different goals and in direct opposition to each other. 


Jeez, I sound like a tree hugger, somebody shoot me.

Don


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> Small Cell / Treatment free / Natural beekeeping and maximizing profits are completely different goals and in direct opposition to each other.


I would not put them in direct opposition. I would consider them to not be aligned but not opposed. The reason is that maximizing profits inherently involves doing things that just don't happen in a natural colony. For example, it is not natural for a colony to be packed up on a truck and moved 500 miles four times in a year to get pollination rental. It is also not natural for bees to work a single floral source for several weeks because that is the only food available. These are what commercial beekeepers do to make a profit. It is not what bees do under natural conditions.

Said another way, I make enough honey to consider my bees to be profitable. I just don't try to maximize profits to the detriment of the bees.

DarJones


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Ok let’s look at this for a minute

If a commercial beek rotates old comb as needed and switch to SC in the process. And does everything else the same like treatments... 

This should not cost the commercial beek any more money or work. Five years down the road the beek will have all small cell and the option to skip a treatment if they want or continue treatment. I would think just to have the option would be a bonus. Maybe skip treatment on 1/4 of the hive each year. Or just continue to treat and have the possibility of allot less mites during a flow and during non treatment times.

Why would a Commercial Beek not want to do that???


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Because treatments contaminate combs. Also, You can't just stick a couple of frames of SC foundation into a LC hive and expect the comb to be drawn out to match the sc.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> You can't just stick a couple of frames of SC foundation into a LC hive and expect the comb to be drawn out to match the sc.


Why not?

Yes, I'm asking this somewhat facetiously.

What if you had a source of queens that were from adapted small cell colonies and you requeened 100 colonies that are on large cell combs with the small cell queens. Could the resulting workers properly draw out small cell?

I am looking for an answer to this question and should have enough information to draw some conclusions early next spring.

DarJones


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Barry wrote:

You can't just stick a couple of frames of SC foundation into a LC hive and expect the comb to be drawn out to match the sc.

From our experiences, as stated before. with a strong hive and a good flow, they drew out 5.1 as well as LC, and drew 4.9 , but not perfect. I guess the old adage "personal results may vary" applies here. 

The bigger issue I see is that last time I checked, SC foundation was more expensive than LC. That may have changed. Commercial beekeepers are in it to make money. Until a study shows that they can save money on treatments, they will be reluctant to spend extra money for SC.

Crazy Roland


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Who sells 5.1?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Roland, I'm surprised you had success doing it that way. That's good to hear!
Sol, if I'm not mistaken, Miller Bee Supply has wax foundation that size.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I bought some from Miller hoping for 5.1mm back in about 2001 or so and it was 5.4mm.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

I went to the Miller Bee website but did not see indications of the cell sizes in the descriptions. Is there something I am missing?
I am looking for wax coated plastic foundation that is 4.9mm Black preferred.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Miller only seems to sell Pierco as far as plastic foundation goes, and it is not 4.9.

But let's get back to the topic. I have a question. Does this hypothetical need to pay the salary and bills and everything, or can it just stand alone in black ink of its own accord? It's been my goal for a long time to make some profit, and I think I am finally after nine years of beekeeping poised to do that. I have all the equipment I need to house the number of hives I want, I have production hives, I have drawn comb, I've started selling nucs, and if I don't buy that motor for my extractor, I think I can do it.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The only option I am aware of for black 4.9 is by purchasing the frame and foundation combined from Mann Lake and cutting the frame off so you can use the foundation.


As a side note to the above discussion, I had a relatively easy time converting my bees to 4.9mm. One probable reason is that I have had 1.25 inch frames for the last 34 years. The closer the frames are spaced, within limits, the more easily the bees will draw out 4.9 foundation.

DarJones


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Solomon Parker said:


> Miller only seems to sell Pierco as far as plastic foundation goes, and it is not 4.9.
> 
> But let's get back to the topic. I have a question. Does this hypothetical need to pay the salary and bills and everything, or can it just stand alone in black ink of its own accord? it.


I suppose anyone that files a schedule F that shows a profit is certainly free to speak and tell their story but I was thinking more along the lines of a full time stand alone operation. Seems like if someone is truly having success spending half their time that it should be a natural progression that at some point they would be doing it full time. I know that their are a number of sideline operators that post on Beesource and I would presume some of them do quite well but they are the exception in this era. It seems to me the only real way to gauge the economic success of a particular operation is if they have to rely solely on their bees for their financial well being.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

So you're thinking beyond just black ink, but a certain number of dollars her hour. What would that number be?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Solomon Parker said:


> So you're thinking beyond just black ink, but a certain number of dollars her hour. What would that number be?


I don't think anyone who has the sole responsibility of operating a business thinks of it in terms of dollars per hour because you are never really off duty. To me it's annual income and what someones life style requires. If you can tighten your belt and make it work without any outside assistance you have every reason to consider your business economically viable.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Dollars per hive perhaps? In a good year, how much in profit would somebody with your chops expect to make per hive? After expenses.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

That is not an apples to apples comparison Solly. If you want to get down to profit per hive, you must factor in all expenses plus labor plus depreciation of equipment. With that baseline, a beekeeper has to consider the potential for sellable hive products.

1. Sale of 1 nuc with 3 frame of brood plus a queen $100
2. Sale at retail of surplus honey presuming 100lb average per colony $250
3. Rental of one colony for small fruit pollination $40
4. Sale of wax presuming 2 pounds per colony $10

If you did everything right and hit all potential product sales, each colony should produce about $400

From that you have to subtract:
1. Equipment depreciation $15
2. Labor (your own or hired) $100
3. Packaging, shipping, and miscellaneous $35
4. Treatments of whatever nature $15
5. Transportation $25

Giving a rough cost per colony of $190

Do your own math and adjust the figures any way you choose.

DarJones


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Now this is good information, I'm glad I asked. Thank you for that Darrel.

I tried to keep track of my hours this year, but I lost track after 30.

Back in 2004 or so, I tried to rent four hives to my aunt to pollinate peaches. She thought I said $35 total, not $35 per hive. She got a bumper crop, I got the shaft. At least the neighbor was generous not to spray while the bees were there.

This really is good information, this deserves a spreadsheet. That's the engineer speaking.inch:


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

do not forget insurance, interest on possilbe loans and principle payments. As well there is association fees and levies, atleast in Canada. Add in as well repairs and maintenance, fuel and oil of equipment required to run the operation..not talking hive boxes and stuff, but rather vehicles, trailers, carts, loaders, honey house (building repairs), extraction repairs, etc. Advertising if you sell your honey and wax local. If you scale your honey on your own scales...say to a store, cost of calibrating the scales, Labour also has to include all fees associated with it like Employment insurance, fed tax, provincia/state tax, pension plans...any deductions which the employer adds to. WCB is another. If you file farm tax forms, the need of a good ag accounant. The purchase of bees or queens, syrup, sugar, pollen patties. If you bottle your honey for say farmer's markets, labels, jars/containers, space rental to sell your product, travel expense ...All this will drive up your cost per colony reducing your profit. 
Any money put out to operate the hives, extract, pollenate, sell, ship end products should be considered an expense or capital assest purchase which is required to operate the colony from the start to the time the final product leaves your hands should be included when figuring your profit/loss ratio of your hives. 
Once a beekeeper starts to do this, and look at everything from a cost stand point it is here one can measure the monetary success by profit or loss. Include all income and all expense. Then you get a true value of cost per hive and income per hive and then the net profit or loss per hive


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Solomon Parker said:


> Dollars per hive perhaps? In a good year, how much in profit would somebody with your chops expect to make per hive? After expenses.


Cost per hive debates can rival small cell debates in spirit primarily because of the wide variety of operations in so many different areas of the country but I can only speak for our particular migratory operation in which we raise all of our own bees and queens. Deductible expenses (not living expenses) each year have been running in the range of $100 per hive, I could see expenses for a smaller operation without our economies of scale going considerably higher. Gross income per hive at current prices could average around $200 plus or minus. This is, of course, all predicated on having a lot of strong healthy hives, if large numbers of them crash then all bets are off.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> Back in 2004 or so, I tried to rent four hives to my aunt to pollinate peaches. She thought I said $35 total, not $35 per hive.


Maybe you better stick to engineering.  

Seriously, the potential profit is $200 per colony but if that colony dies out, your profit is gone and you are then out the cost of replacing the bees. That gets expensive fast. Missing just one of the profit items above can dramatically affect the bottom line. What if you didn't get to sell that nuc for $100 because you had to use them as replacement for a dead colony? You just cut your potential profit in half.

DarJones


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Very interesting discussion.

There is one guy who ( I believe ) makes his living from small cell hives, that's Don the FatBeeMan. However I don't know much about him please anyone correct me if I'm wrong. As i understand, he is a bee breeder and sells small cell bees.

I also understand he will treat organically if need be, so he's not treatment free, which is presumably the point of small cell. It might be why he is able to make a profit though, it would put him closer to the same league as traditional beekeeping. He might even be able to charge a premium for his bees as they are small cell.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

As to profitability, the only outfit I've worked for who did honey and nothing else, the boss told me the first hundred lb's per hive paid the bills. After that, was profit. That was a long time ago but if you work it out, you may find it accurate.

Later I came across a completely different model, an American hippie from the 60's and 70's moved to my country and got involved with bees. His operation consisted of eighty hives, and he made his living from it. Firstly his costs were low he lived in a shack. The other thing is he milked tose hives for everything. Made and sold candles, collected pollen, made boutique jars of honey.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

And then, Honeyshack, that cost per hive and income per hive only means something when it's placed up against the amount of time it takes one to produce it.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I am sorry Barry, I do not understand what you mean. Please explain

If i get what you meant right....it does mean something...it means if you are at a loss, you need to cut, fix, bandage the hemorage so you can make a living, feed the family, pay the bills. The only way that can be done is by knowing where your money goes, especially in the good years so that in the lean years you can cut in places so you can still make a profit, come out ahead, keep the shirt and feed the family. 
A business person who knows where the money goes can react faster when the lean times come. A person who does not know, will take longer to react and could cost himself/herself alot. 

Oldtimer, I have heard the same said about the first 100 pounds, and it rings pretty true on normal years. In a drought, flood, poor honey crop, heavy bee losses, drop in price, it will throw that model out and as a business person who knows where the money goes, find places to cut cut cut (except never cut on nutrition and health).
A raise in price is a time to replace, rebuild, and sock away for when the down turn hits...and it will.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I'm just saying, once you have your costs, subtracted from your receivables, you'll then have to divide by total hours worked to see if you're really making much of anything for time invested.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes in the end, it's as simple as that.

However Honeyshack is also correct. For example, take a beekeeper in an area where the expected average life of his supers would be 20 years. That means each year, he would have to build new supers, at the rate of 1/20th of his total number of supers, to replace the old, just to stay where he is. But if he had a couple bad seasons in a row and was strapped financially, he may be forced to forego the maintenance, so that on paper anyway, he will still show a profit in dollar terms. Of course, there may be a price to pay later.

With a beekeeping business, there are so many variables, and some of them may pan out over many years, it may take a long time to get the true picture. Most successful bee businesses are in a slow expansion mode. Some of the profits are not realised in cash. I've seen such businesses get sold to a new owner who through lack of understanding, laziness, or whatever, stops replacement etc. For the first few years he "milks" the business, showing on paper, a good profit. But over time, the business itself becomes worth less.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

This is fantastic, this is really good stuff.

All this time, I hear commercials say things like "you don't understand because your bees don't pay the bills" and "you don't know what it's like because you're not commercial." And so I would ask them to tell me what it's like and then I get nothing. It's the kinda thing that helps build a stereotype. But now I'm learning and really enjoying this thread. Maybe we could get Jim to start threads more often.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I would think the reason they might say things like that, is because when you tell them this or that about small cell, or that they are stuck in old ways, or whatever, they think, "hang on, this guy's been going 9 years and has never made any money". 

To them, it's about making money, so that will cloud their judgement on what you tell them, and it's about as simple as that.

Stereotypes, are over to whoever wants to make a stereotype. Old, stuck in the past, etc. are just meaningless to the object of the critisizm and they just conclude you don't understand, if you did, you'd be making money. I'm not saying that's a totally correct conclusion, or not, but the two (or more) factions here sometimes don't agree just because where they are coming from is two different planets.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

When you are the owner of a business, you do not get time off, you do not take vacations, you do not get to consider any time as "your own". It gets down to one simple fact, you are responsible for the business. Nobody else. If it succeeds or fails is entirely up to you. You realize there are failure points that have to be adjusted for and dealt with. There are some things that are out of your control like when the nectar flow fails.

DarJones


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Fusion_power said:


> There are some things that are out of your control like when the nectar flow fails.


This was a valid concern for me this year, which is one reason I decided to raise nucs. It's a diversification of product offering to cover variations in supply and demand. With my weather patterns here I can raise nucs in the spring, but I may not have nectar in late spring, early summer which is when most of it comes in.

One interesting thing I learned from the Heathland Skep Beekeeping videos is how they operated for lean years. Normal years, they process wax and then store it in the attic. In lean years, they sell it. Wax is the only hive product that can be stored like that in any volume and not degrade in quality. It's like a savings account. I have 20 pounds of processed wax saved up. I have a way to go.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

> Barry
> 
> I'm just saying, once you have your costs, subtracted from your receivables, you'll then have to divide by total hours worked to see if you're really making much of anything for time invested.


I hear what you are saying Barry and completely understand. However, as an owner of a business, one never really gets fully paid for their time. Most times, especially in expansion, the $ go back into the farm or apiary. Most do not realize the payout untill they sell out...selling out in ways the tax man does not get so much. This takes time and prep and planning. Off the rabbit trail, as farmers if we can put food on the table, pay the bills, have a couple of dollars for a few extras, that is all well and good...maybe some in savings for a rainy day. The reality is, we are not farming to get rich or get rich fast. But rather in it for the long haul, the love of bees, the soil and the life it affords. Paying ourselves a wage does not really happen...not until we sell out.
This statement sounds like a contradiction to my earlier post, and it sort of is. But I have yet to meet a farmer who can pay themselves the wages they earned. If they are set up as a corporation, they will get some $ but never fully what they put in in the form of hard labour.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

There's a joke did the rounds in farming circles here, about when a Labor Inspector visits a farm. He approaches the farmer -

Labor Inspector - Hi, I'm the Labor Inspector. I'm here to check on the workers and ensure their pay and conditions are correct. Who works here?

Farmer - Well, there's the musterer, the fencer, and the general hand. They are all well looked after, you can speak to any of them.

Labor Inspector - That sounds OK but I'll have a chat with them. Anyone else?

Farmer - Well, just one other, the idiot.

Labor Inspector - The idiot?

Farmer - Yes. He's not like the others. He doesn't get paid regularly and he works 7 days a week and sometimes through the night.

Labor Inspector - That's terrible. I want to talk to him.

Farmer - You ARE talking to him.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Yes, true what you say. Yet for anyone starting out in a business, one has to face realty and have some way of putting real time to a real dollar amount. You can only put so much money back into the business. You still have to pay the tax man and the banker and the utilities and the grocer. I run my business through a corporation and understand how that works come tax time and the bottom line says you only made x amount of money!  Always lower than you think it should be, but there are all those dollars that went into the business that you will gain from either right away or in the future.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

People who have no farm and beekeeping is farming, back ground don't really understand. You work all available hours. You support your family as cheaply as possible. You put every dollar into the business and sucess is paying off enough of the loans that the banker will let you do it all again next year. Dollar per hour is just not realistic or important. Having the ability to choose the hour off is more to the point, not having a boss tell you when that hour is. If you succeed it is proof you are a darned hard man to work for. You work the oldtimers IDIOT to the bone. You sock every dime you make back in the business, because you may have to live off your depreiciation for years! And yes, as someone said, when you are too old to enjoy the money you may sell the business and have the money to do the things you never had time to. Of course if you are passing it on to a kid tha equation changes too! Dollars per hour is for city people. You have to live off the land or be self employed to understand that I think.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

That's great Vance, but it does nothing for coming up with a business plan. One must plan, not just work your head off. You can't sock every dime you make back into the business as I already explained. If your business plan ends up making you $50,000 a year, and you end up working "all available hours", I'd end up passing on it and instead getting a job that pays $50,000 working 8 hour days so I still have a life to give to my family, others, and myself. So scrap the per hour figure, I don't care. Make it a yearly figure, it's all the same thing, money earned for time invested. How much is your time worth?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Ya Gadda Wanna. I don't think Steve Jobs was concerned about his return per hour. He worked all available and expected those around him to. I guess my farm boy premis is full of holes eh? Yes it is hard on families. The business plan is to pay off your loan so you can borrow a larger amount. The business plan is to take a vacation after you can afford it, as time allows. It is what built America. If it's not for you, the guvmint is always hiring.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I live in Nevada, but was born and raised in Kansas. I have always told people around here that they have no idea what real gambling is. Try betting your entire livelihood on the weather sometime. then you have an idea what gambling is like. Just a peek though.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Vance G said:


> I don't think Steve Jobs was concerned about his return per hour.


:lpf: You're comparing Steve Jobs to beekeeping? No, he certainly didn't have to be concerned about his return no matter how you figure it.[/QUOTE]



> If it's not for you, the guvmint is always hiring.


 I've already known it's not for me a long time ago. Your snide remark that the alternative is a government job doesn't impress me. I'll continue to run my own construction business, park the truck at the end of the day, take a vacation now and then, spend time with family and friends.

You might want to tell D. Semple that all those numbers and figures he's working on mean nothing. He just has to give his blood to the business.  When I was 20, I could have embraced your business plan. Now I have real obligations to meet and have to have real numbers to base a decision on.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Steve Jobs didn't finish college and created an empire on a shoestring. He very much had to worry about keeping the door open--and again when he resurrected Apple. Congratulations on your business acumen.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Vance G said:


> People who have no farm and beekeeping is farming, back ground don't really understand. You work all available hours. You support your family as cheaply as possible. You put every dollar into the business and sucess is paying off enough of the loans that the banker will let you do it all again next year. Dollar per hour is just not realistic or important. Having the ability to choose the hour off is more to the point, not having a boss tell you when that hour is. If you succeed it is proof you are a darned hard man to work for. You work the oldtimers IDIOT to the bone. You sock every dime you make back in the business, because you may have to live off your depreiciation for years! And yes, as someone said, when you are too old to enjoy the money you may sell the business and have the money to do the things you never had time to. Of course if you are passing it on to a kid tha equation changes too! Dollars per hour is for city people. You have to live off the land or be self employed to understand that I think.


Been there (farming), done that, and failed at it, that's why I have so much respect for you commercial guys that figure out a way to be successful no matter what methods you use.

That’s also why I think the whole premise of trying to be completely treatment free in a fulltime commercial environment is unattainable. Your whole mind set has to be different if you’re fulltime commercial and you have to consider money and time first in every decision. As a sideliner though, I don’t have those same money constraints. 



Barry said:


> :lpf: You might want to tell D. Semple that all those numbers and figures he's working on mean nothing. He just has to give his blood to the business.  When I was 20, I could have embraced your business plan. Now I have real obligations to meet and have to have real numbers to base a decision on.


I put up for discussing my little sideline SC / Treatment free business plan because that’s the level where I believe being treatment free can be successful and where it should be promoted.



Vance G said:


> Ya Gadda Wanna. I don't think Steve Jobs was concerned about his return per hour.


I agree with your “Ya Gadda Wanna”, determination is vital.

But, Barry’s concern about maximizing the value of your time is also vital, because like everybody else, I have serious time constraints and ultimately that will determine if I can remain a sideline beekeeper. 

Don


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

This is a very interesting thread to ponder. I have roughly 30 hives spread over four yards. Half of the bees are Russians and the others are Northern stock. I'm on large cell and use treatments when I think them necessary.

I very much want for successful commercial treatment free beekeeping to be a reality. My belief is that in certain areas it can be done. In other areas you can try all you like but there are too many factors outside your own control to make treatment free attainable.

The old saying "all beekeeping is local" is very true. Conditions where I'm at on the coast of Maine are such that if I were to try to replace all my comb in one year with small cell I might as well forget about a honey crop. My approach to small cell & treatment free beekeeping would of necessity be very different from how others have experienced it. And I'm frankly not excited by a potential 90% loss of bees, esp considering the investments I have already made in equipment and bees. In my location I have to be very aware that I am located in wild blueberry country and that lots of commercially rented hives visit once a year to pollinate. It would not surprise me if there were 500 colonies placed within flying distance of my home yard.

To bring this back to the OP, I'm not yet convinced (and I would like to be) that a commercially viable small cell & treatment free operation can operate in my area. Maybe someday, but not yet. And maybe too it could work for someone who was intensively managing a few hives - I haven't had the gumption to experiment for myself and find out.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Good post Andrew, some excellent points raised.

So far we've got Dee, who seems able to make her living from treatment free bees, rather than from books, teaching about treatment free, etc. 

Are there any others? Even one?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> Are there any others? Even one?


Perhaps asking for a full time commercial is a bit much. How about a fairly good sized sideliner who has been SC for a few years. Gotta bee one of those. And by good sized sideliner... I'm talking say 200 hives.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well the issue being, people may put up their hand and say yes I'm a successful sideliner, but since they have other income, it cannot be demonstrated. To me, the acid test, to see if something works as claimed, is if it actually works, people would be able to live on it, same as normal beekeeping. So I'm putting on the acid to see what comes up.

However, let's try it anyway, anyone with a successful 200 hive treatment free small cell sideline?

AND! Still want to hear if there is anyone other than Dee making a living from sc treatment free bees. Even one.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> However, let's try it anyway, anyone with a successful 200 hive treatment free small cell sideline?
> 
> AND! Still want to hear if there is anyone other than Dee making a living from sc treatment free bees. Even one.


Gotta say I am a bit surprised, this thread being 4 days old now that we haven't had anyone step up and make any kind of case at all for a profitable bottom line in any type of treatment free/small cell operation with the exception of heresay about Dee's operation. I honestly didn't expect that at all. Perhaps it isn't unfair at this point to generalize that a profitable treatment free operation is a noble but as yet unproven goal. I know that Randy Oliver stirred the pot on this in the ABJ a few months ago (and I paraphrase here) when he suggested that this perhaps is only setting up new beekeepers for failure.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

What about Sam Comfort?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Solomon Parker said:


> What about Sam Comfort?


I believe an acquaintance of mine met him out on HiWay 95 to either deliver or receive nucs..... said he had bees tattooed all over his body...  Also said... he was migratory between Ny & FL... with TBH. Did not know he was SC too. Yea.. he might meet the criteria.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>this perhaps is only setting up new beekeepers for failure. 

How does using smaller cells on foundation set up new beekeepers for failure? It seems to me that putting them on large cell and putting cumophos etc. in the hive is setting them up for failure. It is LESS effort to do natural cell than to do large cell by far (and cheaper), and if you use PF100s or PF120s, it's no more work to do small cell than to do large cell. Are people actually convinced that natural comb is BAD for bees?

I don't see that small cell in any way precludes having a profitable business plan, on the contrary, you have less labor involved and less expenses and I know of no one having general collapse of their bees. My problem is I make much more money doing computer work and have been out of the country, so I can hardly make the case that I'm making money at something I'm not even working at presently.

There is certainly a market for small cell nucs and bees.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >this perhaps is only setting up new beekeepers for failure.
> 
> How does using smaller cells on foundation set up new beekeepers for failure?


I think Jim is referring to the TF/SC/Lettem die.... philosophy.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Sam is a top bar hive beekeeper, so the comb is as the bees want it. He does migrate from the Hudson valley in New York, to Florida for the winter. He doesn't treat for mites...at least I don't think he does. I think his successes come from his management system. He brings the TBHs back from Florida and sells TBH nucs to beekeepers who lost their TBH colonies. He also allows them to swarm if they wish. These are not the typical long TBH, but little shorties that he makes out of scrap wood, barn boards, etc. Almost like nucs themselves. So I bet his varroa control is splitting and swarming. He's found a niche that suits him and his management plan and philosophy. Is Sam making a living? Not if you listen to him talk.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

I am surprised he can migrate at all with TBH, not that I know anything about TBH, but it would seem that there would be serious comb damage in transit.

Does he pollinate? He does appear to be in serious demand as a speaker.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I think Jim is referring to the TF/SC/Lettem die.... philosophy. 

But less of them die in my experience when you don't treat them and you put them on small cell. A LOT less. They ALL died from Varroa when I had them on large cell with treatments, several times for me. That seems like setting them up for failure. NONE of them died from Varroa when I put them on small cell and treatment free. That seems like setting them up for success...


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Just that.. Since it's so successful, you'd think people would be doing it with success......

I know there's a lot of treatment free small cell folks who have ambitions of going full time, or at least, of making some money.

Dee has been writing and teaching her methods for commercial treatment free small cell, and running seminars on it, since the 1980's. But nobody has been able to do it. Not one.

So I got to wonder. Is there something about her beekeeping, that the others haven't got? I mean, all her followers that wanted to go full time but failed. It would seem a logical thing to wonder.

Could it be the africanised bees? Natural varroa resistance, do well on small cell. Stacks up.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >I think Jim is referring to the TF/SC/Lettem die.... philosophy.
> 
> But less of them die in my experience when you don't treat them and you put them on small cell. A LOT less.


And your experience... is that of an experienced, talented, probably gifted (from what I hear) beekeeper. I think we were talking about a beginner. Most beginners that I know have not all failed with LC & Treatment.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes, gotta wonder what's up when they are treated, and ALL die, and several times. Something wasn't right.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

MB: This thread really isnt about why in your opinion something should be better it is quite simply a request for someone to share their financially successful small cell/treatment free experience with others. Absent any successful first hand accounts I don't think it is too radical to suggest that a young beekeeper interested in making a living with his bees may have a greater chance of success copying someone that has learned a way to make a living at this particularly one who has done it with minimal and safer treatments than was the norm a few years ago. Perhaps someone will yet come forward or perhaps someone is presently working on a model that they can tell us about sometime in the future, only time will tell but at the time being this is where we are at.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

D Semple said:


> But, Barry’s concern about maximizing the value of your time is also vital, because like everybody else, I have serious time constraints and ultimately that will determine if I can remain a sideline beekeeper.


I was working on this article today and I see I was right on target with my comment about coming up with a labor cost. Written back in 1968, it's extremely relevant for today. I added the bold for emphases.

*********
*Economics of Colony Management
*
The business of beekeeping demands attention to the costs of producing honey. Cost of production surveys made in the Intermountain States, Oregon, and California indicate that the average cost of production was above the current commercial price of honey. This unbalanced situation probably is more acute today because of the tremendous increase in labor and equipment costs. As in many other branches of agriculture, the cash costs for producing a honey crop are less than half the true costs. Thus, the established beekeeper whose cash costs may be low has been able to obtain a living even when his business has been operating at a loss, if he would figure interest on the capital investments, *management cost for his own time, the value of family labor, and many hidden business costs frequently overlooked by one accustomed to concern only for cash to meet the family needs.*

These early surveys showed that the colony yield was the basic factor influencing production costs. The cost of producing a pound of honey in the apiaries giving low yields was five to nine times the cost in apiaries with high average yields. When it is recognized that most apiaries show average yields only one-third as high as those obtained from the most productive colonies, the beekeeper is challenged to increase the efficiency of his management.

The principles and practices that will aid the beekeeper in obtaining maximum colony yields have been given in this paper. A simple system of accounting can be used to determine the cost factors in relation to returns and point out opportunities for improving efficiency in management.

The following items should be included in any accounting system: An inventory of the capital investment; interest, depreciation, and maintenance costs on the capital investment in hive equipment; buildings, machinery, and motor vehicles; *man-hours of labor per apiary and per colony*; travel costs per apiary and per colony; replacement costs for queens and supplies other than those included in capital investment; losses from disease, wintering, pilfering, and other hazards; costs for rentals, taxes, insurance, utility service, and office supplies; yields per apiary and per colony; and returns on honey, wax, and/or rental services.

An analysis of the cost items and returns each year will reveal the true cost of production and the profit or loss on the business.
An analysis of unit apiary costs in relation to their returns, based on total business costs, will indicate opportunities for economy or for increasing management efficiency.

http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/productive-management-of-honey-bee-colonies/


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

There is a world of good advice in the Farrer article. The only thing I could see that needs revising is the use of package bees and queens. This is more efficiently done with a nucleus system.

DarJones


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## forgeblast (Feb 4, 2011)

Just wondering so please excuse my ignorance.
If you are looking for a way to make your operation more efficent and less costly
why not look at getting rid of things you may not need.
Lets look at a warre,
top bars, no foundation needed, and the bars can be easily made
If you leave enough honey you dont have to feed
you can be treatment free, and market accordingly
and you only have to work it in the spring and fall.
There is a commercial operation in france that uses them. so it can be done on a larger scale. 
I would think if you are after honey and not soo much the polination this would be 
a positive. 
It just seems using other systems have so much gear that drives down your profit. 
Please let me restate I am just wondering out loud and this is only my first full year with my warre, please excuse my ignorance.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

There may be some kind of niche market for Warré hives, but most people in the US who want to make money out of a Warré business, have found they have to do it by making and selling more Warré hives, and also running courses on them.

Possibly the reason nobody is running a commercial Warré business they could live on, is Warré hives are 1/2 the size, so would not get the pollination money a lang does, except maybe in some type of niche situation. I've also been told by a Warré expert that the annual honey crop from a Warré would be something between 30 to 60 pounds or even less, and that just not going to pay the bills.

Another problem from a commercial perspective is that Warré hives are supposed to be treatment free. Commercial beekeepers need to maintain their hives in a treated environment there is no successful TF commercial honey producing migratory operation in the US. Warré hives have been promoted as not needing treatment, but now there's more of them around some people are starting to come out about losing them. Warré hives get mites and die of mites just like any other hives and a commercial outfit cannot withstand this.

The honey has to be extracted by crush and strain, in a large operation this will be a lot more labor intensive than extracting frames.

Having said all that, there may be a niche for somebody with the needed charisma, to run a Warré business, but it would require a personality that could convince people they need his hives on their orchard and should pay rent for them, and likewise convince a market sector to pay a lot more for his honey. But my feeling is that there are those who have tried, it's a hard road.

But I'm not knocking the hive, for a hobbyist they may offer some advantages. Other than lifting the whole hive to nadir it, the hive management is less work. There is also less knowledge required. Although people who buy too much into the "leave it alone" philosophy, can be left floundering when something actually does go wrong.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

BTW, thought I better back up my claims about Warrés and varroa. Maybe a year or so ago a member here, beez2010, who was trying to run a Warré business, was on the forum telling everybody his Warré hives did not suffer from varroa, and was telling his clients this also. He and I had a major argument over this as when his hives died he didn't know enough to say what it was that had killed them.

Anyhow I just googled his own web site, and to my surprise, reality has dawned, here is a link to his latest position on the matter, he actually states that if you don't treat your Warré hives they will likely die of varroa. BTW he still hasn't got all his facts right, but he is moving in the right direction.
http://www.thewarrestore.com/treatingforvarroa.htm


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## forgeblast (Feb 4, 2011)

I really appreciate the info. What is the typical honey crop from a normal commercial hive?
Is there more money in pollenination vs honey?
Thank you again Oldtimer I really value the info.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK well I don't know what a typical honey crop is in the US. Hardly anybody gives hard figures, but recently Honeyshack, who is a semi commercial beekeeper in Canada, mentioned 180 to 240 lbs per hive per year.

I also don't know what pollination pays in the US, maybe some US beeks will chip in.

But what commercial beeks do to get a good financial return, is sometimes quite far removed from what a treatment free person would consider acceptable. So it's about what you want, and your own opinions on how things should be, and then, would that actually make me enough money to live on.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

In this area, pollination represents about 2/3 of the gross. Honey is just not a big thing here in the SE. 30-80 lbs is probably a typical yield per hive. If you have the inclination to deal with the clientale... nucs or shook bees could probably equal honey in gross dollars.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

hpm08161947 said:


> If you have the inclination to deal with the clientale....


Ha Ha! Therein the dilema!


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## forgeblast (Feb 4, 2011)

I really appreciate all the info. I never realized that pollination was that profitable. I always thought that honey was where the $ was. 
Its real helpful to me because we are trying to maxamize our time, along with using our property to its fullest. I know that our bees will stay part of the over all plan,
but now I have to rethink a few things. thanks again.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

forgeblast said:


> I really appreciate all the info. I never realized that pollination was that profitable. I always thought that honey was where the $ was.


It depends on where you are... I can think of guys in the big honey areas that no doubt would say that honey was the major part of their income.... but not that many on them.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Just as an example of that, where I live in a built up suburban area, most people have gardens with many types of flowering plants, the hives on the lawn of my house would normally get around 300 lb's annually. But last year I had to put some at a site around 15 miles away, a country area which is a kind of "green desert", very little bee forage, the hives not only got a dismal crop of maybe 60 or 70 lb's, but also had other problems like swarming for no obvious reason.

Location is one of the most important things.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Makes sense. The best "Locations" are the ones with diverse flora.... some of the worst are the monocultures of the countryside. In this area, our best honey producing are called "Carolina Bays", seems like something is blooming all year. Google "Carolina Bays" and you will get an interesting read.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Typical honey crops in the U.S. run about 80 pounds average in the southeast to about 250 pounds average in the better areas with sweet clover. Pollination will run about $140 to $150 in almonds with additional pollination from maybe 2 more sets into fruit bloom and maybe veggies like cucumbers which will typically get $50 to $70 per colony. Long and short of it, a colony can easily return $250 per year on pollination contracts. If the beekeeper has a good place for a honey crop such as in the Dakotas, he can fit in a crop that can run several hundred pounds per colony after doing 2 or 3 rounds of pollination. There are a lot of gotchas in those numbers though so best to ask a commercial guy how he does it.

DarJones


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

http://usda01.library.cornell.edu/usda/current/Hone/Hone-02-25-2011.pdf
250 lbs? Years back it happened a lot but as farming practices have changed honey crops have declined. The Dakotas do raise a lot of honey but its primarily because there are a lot of bees shipped up here each summer. The USDA numbers pretty much speak for themselves.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Around 200 lb average, in the 40's, but not around here in a LONG time.

Crazy Roland


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