# Question/Idea



## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

no


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## chemistbert (Mar 4, 2004)

Nope. Since bees will cross up a full sheet of foundation why do you think they would pay attention to a strip of permacomb?


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Sometimes the bees just decide to stick something where you don't expect. Sometimes its also your fault, because you cause some minor damage to the combs and the bees fix the problem be refacing it or building comb between combs. I just cut it out as cleanly as I can.

Also foundation either wooden, waxen or durguilt/permacomb whatever produces a weaker attachment at least at first. Until they fill up and attach comb DIRECTLY to the topbar, your comb is at increased risk of breaking.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Well, thanks that saves a lot of time and energy. Back to the drawing board.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

MIKI many of these experiments have already been conducted. They are all good thoughts with great intentions. Sure a foundation dipping into the hive helps encourage straight comb. It really does, but the comb attachment is narrow and therefore weak. All people who have used starter strips, wood starter strips and anything similar like duragilt have all reported that the bees build to the bottom of it, and that the foundation alone doesn't support the wieght of the comb and it collapses, or the comb attached to the veneer thin wooden starter strip is very precarious with only a tiny bit of attachemnt UNTIL they finally decide to work upwards This is usually after they have brooded a full cycle and start storing honey, which they like above the brood. Often by then the comb has already exceeded its weight bearing capacity, and when you break the side wall attachments, you get comb failure within the first 6 weeks. If you want to use it, go ahead but then leave the nest and all new comb alone for at least a couple of months to give them the chance to fill in the top with a strong midrib.

The strongest midrib by far is the midrib the BEES attached to the topbar. They know how to do it better than us.

The best comb guide I have come up with so far is the beveled edge (which many several people came up with first, I just enhanced it). I use a router to cut a double champher out of either side instead of using a table saw, then needed to cut out toes and all the extra work that's invovled. The $100 for a cheap table router was well worth saving the number of cuts I needed to perform on the top bars to get the same effect, and the routed bevel edge also provides a row or two worth of additional hive volume, which equates to more brood and storage per comb without changing hive dimenstion.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> The strongest midrib by far is the midrib the 
> BEES attached to the topbar.

If I take non-TBH frames of honey and put them
in an extractor, I can increase the RPMs to the
point where anything except plastic foundation-
based frames "blow out". (Quite an overkill
motor, and extractor legs bolted to the floor
with big fat lag bolts are required to do this.)

This seems to indicate that a top bar that was
cut down the middle and "clamped" upon a piece
of plastic foundation cut the the correct shape
for a TBH (counter-sunk bolts, nuts, and washers
would be the way to go here, running the bolts
through holes drilled in the plastic foundation)
would be a superior "frame" for a TBH, and
eliminate both the structural problems and the
"confuse-a-comb" incidents.

But this turns the effort into something other
than the simple and cheap "TBH approach". Likely,
TBH enthusiasts would consider it heresy.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

My dad always taught me to learn from other peoples mistakes. Thats why I asked, I would rather focus my efforts on another idea, be sure I'll ask first.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

> But this turns the effort into something other
> than the simple and cheap "TBH approach". Likely,
> TBH enthusiasts would consider it heresy.


HERESY!!!!!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Probably the three appealing aspects of a TBH are:

Simple to build.

Natural sized cells.

Easy to work.

Using plastic foundation would detract from two of those while enhancing one of them only a little.


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

Jim,
I should rephrase. The strongest midrib ATTACHMENT by far is the midrib the BEES attached to the topbar.
Starter strips fail most often in TBHs because the bees don't draw them out but build down from them and then the foundation and the method YOU attached it with must bear the weight. The bees are better at it than we are.


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

I have never seen a peice of perma comb, I imagined it to be as thick as drawn comb( this may be where I get lost). If you cut it into strips the bottom would be a wide flat plastic surface. Whats the difference between the bees attaching there or to the bar other than plastic and wood surfaces. If they did attach to the bottom of the perma comb how could they go askew when this is the only place they can attach and its already strait. I know there is a flaw with this line of thought ( I think it lays with my mental pic of perma comb) I just need it to be pointed out...for satifaction purposes.

Also I dont see the difference in labor between melting wax in a kerf or making comb guides as opposed to cutting perma comb with a dremel or hot knife and securing it to the bar with a couple of screws.


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