# Take the poll, queenless or not



## imthedude (Jan 28, 2013)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

i don't know about queenless, but it sounds like one of your layers was going to town.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Not enough information. Which is in the original location? Any? None? Which ones where split? All of them?

Foragers will tend to return to the old location. If there is no hive in the old location, they will tend to drift to the hive with a queen...


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Not enough info.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Do you walk to school ?
OR
Carry your Lunch ?


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Keep your girls off the pole.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Well I tried to take another video of the three hives and all was going good until this one lady kept dive bombing me and it resulted in a lot of swear words so I can't show it.

I will be honest, I don't know which one is queenless except for one that I know has a queen. The point of the video was to show that detecting queenless is not that easy from what you see form outside the hive. I will say that before I split there were bees in every box. I split and put four frames of honey in the top box of each half. I will let this poll run out and then I will tell you which hive was split and how it was place.

I will say that these are walk away splits. I split by the box and do not pull frames to check for brood or eggs.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*












> I will let this poll run out and then I will tell you which hive was split


It's interesting to have some suspense added to the forum...


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Hi Ace, checked it out, it is completely impossible to know which have queens, or much else, you would have to open the hives.

Also, splitting by the box without even checking if there is brood might seem the easiest option, but it could turn out to be the most work of all if they all fail due to not being set up properly. There really is no way to accomplish everything by doing nothing, a bit more effort during the set up stage can pay off in the long run.

Also, putting 4 combs of honey in new queenless splits, that might not even have brood, is asking for trouble, particularly with holes drilled in the boxes. Keep a close eye for robbing, if there is any at all block all entrances completely, except for one tiny gap, closest to where the brood is.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Oldtimer said:


> Also, putting 4 combs of honey in new queenless splits, that might not even have brood, is asking for trouble, particularly with holes drilled in the boxes. Keep a close eye for robbing, if there is any at all block all entrances completely, except for one tiny gap, closest to where the brood is.


I would like to discuss this a little more. There are two stacks of boxes and frames that do not have a colony in them. The frames of honey, last years wet frames and more empty frames in these stacks. I expected the bees to rob these stacks out but they haven't. Can you explain that? They have been there all winter long.

I have a bit of an issue with some of these frames because the wet frames are crystallized and I suspect some capped honey is too. If I put these frames in the hives they are not going to touch it so what should I do. I thought of washing them out and making mead but I have too many jobs and no free time.



> it is completely impossible to know which have queens, or much else, you would have to open the hives.


I totally agree.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

>I would like to discuss this a little more. There are two stacks of boxes and frames that do not have a colony in them. The frames of honey, last years wet frames and more empty frames in these stacks. I expected the bees to rob these stacks out but they haven't. Can you explain that?

They are busy rearing brood and they have enough for the time being. Why not put them on the colonies and save them the trouble of robbing them?

> They have been there all winter long.

Not much robbing goes on in winter unless the weather gets awfully warm...

>I have a bit of an issue with some of these frames because the wet frames are crystallized and I suspect some capped honey is too. If I put these frames in the hives they are not going to touch it

Of course they will. They will consume every bit of it eventually, and since it's the spring buildup, probably quickly.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Yes I'm mostly with MB's take on it. 

Plus, sometimes they'll come out of winter and go to a flow, and never have any interest in robbing. But it never pays to discount robbing, particularly if making queenless splits, better to play safe than be sorry. What I do, as a matter of course, is always manage the bees in such a way to minimise robbing.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

OK, what will happen if I put three more boxes on the split hives if the frames are partially filled with crystallized honey? Or should I just use up the crystallized frames and save the empty frames for later? I was concerned with too much space for a split hive to defend. Maybe I should put empty boxes where the original hive is whether it is queenless or not because that one should have all the foragers from the split.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Consolidate the frames you want cleaned up into one box, or just add one box at a time til they're all done if you need them all cleaned up.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

I would agree that there isn't a lot of info to work with here but I am a bit suspicious based on the darting motions of the bees and the "dirty" entrance that we are seeing robbing behavior on the middle hive. Are you saying that the two "hives" on the left are stacked comb?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Acebird said:


> I was concerned with too much space for a split hive to defend.


If they can defend the entrance the rest should be OK. I would have a single, reduced entrance.


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## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Does splitting your hives go against your "non-intervention" approach to beekeeping? I don't have my crystal ball handy, so I cant tell which one is queenless, but I will wager that it is the white one. 
You are correct though, telling queenlessness from outside the hive isn't very easy, usually people pop the lid and check for eggs and brood. Its kind of hard to see them through the wood and paint on the box.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



jim lyon said:


> Are you saying that the two "hives" on the left are stacked comb?


The composition of the video was centered on three hives that have bees in them. To the left is a stack of equipment and to the right is a much bigger stack of equipment.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



NY_BLUES said:


> Does splitting your hives go against your "non-intervention" approach to beekeeping?


No


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## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Can you explain why? I am curious what your definition of non intervention beekeeping is, I have never heard anyone use that term.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

I suspect it may be driven by a nubees idealism. Now that Ace has been around a bit longer he may start moving away from some of his initial premises. And should probably be allowed space to do that, learning is an ongoing thing.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



NY_BLUES said:


> I am curious what your definition of non intervention beekeeping is,


My definition is: 1 do not put anything into the hive that the bees would not normally bring in. 2 Avoid disturbing the brood nest except for swarm prevention in the spring. 3 Except for AFB let the bees deal with diseases on their own.


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## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Thanks for the definition, i appreciate it.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

This is driving me crazy (short drive). Why don't you just look inside and see?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Acebird said:


> My definition is: 1 do not put anything into the hive that the bees would not normally bring in. 2 Avoid disturbing the brood nest except for swarm prevention in the spring. 3 Except for AFB let the bees deal with diseases on their own.


I believe there's a forum for this. Here's a link to the rules: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?253066-Unique-Forum-Rules


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



cg3 said:


> This is driving me crazy (short drive). Why don't you just look inside and see?


I will at some point. If there isn't a queen in 7 days there will be next to nothing in open brood. The hives that have a queen should have all different ages of brood.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

I did a quick inspection of the hive on the left and the one in the middle. I found no open larvae in either of these colonies but I didn't look too hard in the middle one. Today is overcast with rain in the forecast for the next week. The hive in the middle was the original hive split and the one to the left was the other half. The hive on the right is a queen right hive that overwintered. I saw a lot of queen cups in the middle hive but not any cells. It was so jammed packed with bees I did not want to dig into it full force. I put two more supers on this hive and I think I am going to let it ride.
Temperament of all the hives was fine.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Any update concerning the split?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Nope, I am busier than a one arm paper hanger. The weather is horrible with a chance of frost tonight.
Our back yard is leafed out so I can't see the hives from the kitchen window anymore.

I won't be surprised if this split ends up a dud even though I split later than last year. I think climate change did me in. We had a very hot spell before this cold and rain. There is an outside chance if there was a queen raised that she got mated but I don't have my hopes up. So the update is I have two queenright hives and one stack of equipment with a bunch of bees in it right now.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

So, at this point, the majority of the members who responded to your poll may be correct in their choice...


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Acebird said:


> I won't be surprised if this split ends up a dud even though I split later than last year. I think climate change did me in. We had a very hot spell before this cold and rain.


This is of course guesswork, as you have not looked at the hive lately.

However, you are correct that the split is most likely a failure, but not because of climate change. The way you did the split is the problem, not even checking to see if it had brood to make a queen from, and so likely you also don't know if there is a viable number of bees left either.

However there's a chance you got lucky and it all came together, but it's an outside chance.

Did you do it that way because of your non interference philosophy? If so, I think there is a case for moving towards a little more management, at least as far as not asking the bees to do anything that is impossible.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



BeeCurious said:


> So, at this point, the majority of the members who responded to your poll may be correct in their choice...


Yes, I would say the majority (all four) was correct. Still guessing... I popped the cover off from that first hive on the left today because there was no activity from that hive while the other two were zooming. There were a lot of bees right on top so it isn't dead yet.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Oldtimer said:


> Did you do it that way because of your non interference philosophy?


Not really, it is still interference. I do it (Walk away split) because it is by far something that anyone can do. For me I would prefer to split a booming spring hive into thirds like I did last year. I think that stops the swarming impulse for sure and gives better odds that you will end up with at least two active hives.

Four hives would not be good for me this year. The only reason I split at all this year was an attempt to prevent swarming.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

I tried to take some video of the hives this evening but the light level makes a low quality video so you can't see the bee activity. All three hives look normal to the human eye.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

A little update...

The hive in question has a lot of bees in it and they are bringing in LOTS of pollen. This might bring it out of the stack of equipment with bees category to a queen right hive.

That is good news because I am about to offer it to someone that ordered bees and the whole shipment was killed! I am told over 400 packages or nucs, not sure. Anyway the guy was so distraught that he didn't contact me. He was told by the supplier to get is money back from the shipper not them.

Weather is just horrible this year.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

I am with Jim on this one. Centre hive is queenless for sure, likely broodless and is being robbed out.

Jean-Marc


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

I tried to vote for clueless, but couldn't find that option...

Oh, it's QUEENLESS you are asking about. Never mind.
:lookout:


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Ooooh!  :lpf:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



jean-marc said:


> I am with Jim on this one. Centre hive is queenless for sure, likely broodless and is being robbed out.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Far from it. This hive is 6 boxes high and crammed full. More than likely will swarm because I have no frames and foundation to give them to occupy the nurse bees only drawn comb. I thought about cutting out the comb on the frames I have and go natural but these are the newest frames I have.

I have an interesting observation. The hive on the left which was presumed queenless had a very large mite fall and the two to the right don't seem to have much of anything.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Why not look INSIDE the freakin' things and put us out of our misery!


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Oldtimer said:


> Why not look INSIDE the freakin' things and put us out of our misery!


I could not agree more.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

It's a trick question! Don't take (or intervene) with the poll!!!


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

You mean don't intervene in the poll.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Oldtimer said:


> Why not look INSIDE the freakin' things and put us out of our misery!


Ah, what fun is that? Really.

One very smart man told me if I still had a lot of bees in the split 60 days later it is a queen right hive. I am a very patient man. Waiting is not a problem for me.

I think most backyard beeks like working the bees more then they like the bees.

Like most insects or animals the bees have a survival instinct. I have pushed the envelope with an early split to see how strong that survival instinct is. All interventions into the hive creates a risk to the colony each and every time you enter. It is quite involved to dig into my hives because I don't do too often. Add to the fact that I had no foundation to keep the little buggers busy this year means they have cemented in each frame so it will survive the UPS drop test.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Acebird said:


> I think most backyard beeks like working the bees more then they like the bees.


I think most backyard beekeepers are more curious, and more interested in bees than you. 

Not going into the hives doesn't automatically make you The Great Honeybee Lover.... 

"Non-intervention " could be another way of saying:"Gee, I really don't like getting too close to the bees".


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Acebird said:


> Ah, what fun is that? Really.


For most of us, looking in the hive IS one of the fun parts. That's where we see the interesting stuff.

Your description got me worried Ace. 

I'm an inspector, and every so often I go to nightmare beekeepers with "nightmare" hives, that can hardly be opened or examined, and sometimes impossible to do without breaking comb & generally making mess. Sounds like you might be one of these guys.

These are the hives that do have risk. A properly set up Lang with combs that are in the right place, and easily separated, there is almost zero risk.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Acebird said:


> Ah, what fun is that? Really.
> 
> One very smart man told me if I still had a lot of bees in the split 60 days later it is a queen right hive. I am a very patient man. Waiting is not a problem for me.
> 
> ...


Have your wife buy you a hive tool.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

We have two.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Oldtimer said:


> I'm an inspector, and every so often I go to nightmare beekeepers with "nightmare" hives, that can hardly be opened or examined, and sometimes impossible to do without breaking comb & generally making mess. Sounds like you might be one of these guys.


I have a theory that the 18 wheelers pounding the pavement about 75 feet from the hives day after day causes vibrations in the hives and the bees react by cementing everything solid. In addition the race of the bees could be compounding the problem.

I wonder how many beekeepers that do it for a living consider it fun with all the work involved in all kinds of weather. I consider it fun having bees and learning how resourceful these little critters are. I was not a friend of a stinging insect until I got a hive and learned of my ignorance. Digging into a hive for the sake of finding out something that I will eventually find out anyway by being patient is neither fun nor necessary in my point of view.

Oldtimer, I am confident that you would love to inspect my hives. I am sure you could manage the so called mess that you think they are. You might notice how healthy the bees are without as much as a spoonful of sugar or a grain of chemicals and wonder how that happens.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

This appears to be the Seinfeld thread of Beesource. A thread about nothing with no promise that we will ever actually learn anything anytime soon. Yet 1500+ views? Go figure. It just furthers my long held view that Acebird is really just a creation of Barry designed to increase the popularity of the site. The guy in the picture with the dog? Probably a second cousin from Peoria or something. Well played Barry, well played.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

> Yet 1500+ views

Possibly for the same reason that we get crowds watching house fires, or the proverbial "train wreck"!  _Drama_, _comedy _and _tragedy _are common themes in entertainment. And here you get them all rolled into one! :lpf: :gh: :lookout:


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



jim lyon said:


> It just furthers my long held view that Acebird is really just a creation of Barry designed to increase the popularity of the site. Well played Barry, well played.


You might be right....


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



jim lyon said:


> A thread about nothing with no promise that we will ever actually learn anything anytime soon.


Jim, what is it that you hope to learn?
I can imagine Barry falling off his chair right about now. I can assure you Barry did not create Acebird or his dog. I thank him for creating this forum as a means to learn about bees. It has been a big help to me.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Well first of all it's all in good humor......Barry. Secondly what actually IS this about if you are unwilling to open your hive and give us the results? I just find it all a bit humorous......sort of like Seinfeld.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Acebird said:


> I have a theory that the 18 wheelers pounding the pavement about 75 feet from the hives day after day causes vibrations in the hives and the bees react by cementing everything solid. In addition the race of the bees could be compounding the problem.
> 
> I wonder how many beekeepers that do it for a living consider it fun with all the work involved in all kinds of weather. I consider it fun having bees and learning how resourceful these little critters are. I was not a friend of a stinging insect until I got a hive and learned of my ignorance. Digging into a hive for the sake of finding out something that I will eventually find out anyway by being patient is neither fun nor necessary in my point of view.
> 
> Oldtimer, I am confident that you would love to inspect my hives. I am sure you could manage the so called mess that you think they are. You might notice how healthy the bees are without as much as a spoonful of sugar or a grain of chemicals and wonder how that happens.


I seriously doubt that propolis production and use are effected by vibrations caused by traffic passing your house. Anyone inspecting your hive may find a mess or that the combs are in the frames in an orderly manner. But, no one will know w/out looking. You continue to be a beehaver. I wonder why you continue having bees w/out any interest in interacting w/ them in any indepth manner.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



sqkcrk said:


> You continue to be a beehaver.


You make that out to be a bad thing. By rights a beehaver should only be a temporary thing because his bees should die off. Do I have that correct? To continue to be a beehaver doesn't make any sense.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

You assume too much. Being a beehaver is neither good or bad. But, it isn't what being a beekeeper could be and is. After a while, just like feral colonies, your bees will die too. To a beekeeper being a beehaver make little sense. Why do you have bees? What is the attraction? You seem by your Posts to be resistant to learning the art and science of beekeeping. Why?


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Some people talk to themselves, others find people to argue with.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



sqkcrk said:


> What is the attraction? You seem by your Posts to be resistant to learning the art and science of beekeeping. Why?


Pollination, and a minimal amount of honey for consumption. I am trying to learn all I can. The resistance is two fold, lack of time and a philosophy that the bees have a better chance of survival without my intervention then with. At first it was fear. I have much less fear now then when I first started.

After a while, just like feral colonies ALL bees will die. Only the queen makes it to her second birthday and that's not all the time. I don't see any difference.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



BeeCurious said:


> I believe there's a forum for this. Here's a link to the rules: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?253066-Unique-Forum-Rules


Which says...

"Treatment: A substance introduced by the beekeeper into the hive with the intent of killing, repelling, or inhibiting a pest or disease afflicting the bees."

So treatment is Not "management" of the hive. Good link, BC.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Acebird said:


> My definition is: ............ Except for AFB let the bees deal with diseases on their own.


You will never know if they have AFB.

Till after they got robbed & died I guess.

One of the arguments for management.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

How will he know even then?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



sqkcrk said:


> You continue to be a beehaver. I wonder why you continue having bees w/out any interest in interacting w/ them in any indepth manner.


Hey Mark, why don't you tell Ace how you REALLY feel?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Brian and I have had these conversations for a cpl of years now. I believe he knows how I feel and what I think.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



BeeCurious said:


> It's interesting to have some suspense added to the forum...


:lpf:


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Oldtimer said:


> ... These are the hives that do have risk. A properly set up Lang with combs that are in the right place, and easily separated, there is almost zero risk


Risk... Of what? AFB?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

In the context, I took it Ace was referring to the risk of killing the queen, or similar misadventure.

Good you pointed out the other interpretation Seymore as that never occurred to me someone might think that. Just for the record AFB can hit any hive equally, not just an untidy one.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Thanks for clarification. Have read the thread over several sittings. Makes it hard for me to keep up sometimes.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



sqkcrk said:


> You assume too much. Being a beehaver is neither good or bad. But, it isn't what being a beekeeper could be and is. After a while, just like feral colonies, your bees will die too. To a beekeeper being a beehaver make little sense. Why do you have bees? What is the attraction? You seem by your Posts to be resistant to learning the art and science of beekeeping. Why?



I am wondering just what about the art is so impressive? Are you saying everyone should jump in the sinking boat of traditional beekeeping?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

No I thought he said "Being a beehaver is neither good or bad. But, it isn't what being a beekeeper could be and is".


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Oldtimer said:


> Just for the record AFB can hit any hive equally, not just an untidy one.


But, the point of a managed hive is that one will notice the presence of Disease if one knows something about healthy looking brood and diseases. Unmanaged hives, in my experience, are a disease reservoir. Or can be. Which has been a concern w/ the attitude that some TBH/Live and Let Die beekeepers.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Daniel Y said:


> Are you saying everyone should jump in the sinking boat of traditional beekeeping?


Well Daniel, that's your point of view and I don't go along w/ it. So I don't think I have an answer for you. Do you believe that bekeeping is artless?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Oldtimer said:


> But, it isn't what being a beekeeper could be and is".


Says who? Beekeeping is whatever I decide it is as far as my bees are concerned. you want to start paying the bills for my bees. then you can decide what keeping them means. Otherwise it is fairly rude. arrogant and assuming to think you have anything to say about it or any opinion of it is welcome. So no I don't by your friendly an innocent appraisal of his nature I find it arrogant, intrusive and out of line. It's none of his business why another keeps bees. I keep them because I find the sound of them soothing. what business is that of his.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



sqkcrk said:


> Brian and I have had these conversations for a cpl of years now. I believe he knows how I feel and what I think.


Mark is not shy on his feelings about beekeeping. You might say the same about me. That doesn't stop us from being friends.

It shouldn't stop anyone from being friends on this forum.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Well how's that! Everything back to Zen.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Acebird said:


> Mark is not shy on his feelings about beekeeping. You might say the same about me. That doesn't stop us from being friends.
> 
> It shouldn't stop anyone from being friends on this forum.


Brian, not often I agree with you. Spot on here.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Daniel Y said:


> Says who? Beekeeping is whatever I decide it is as far as my bees are concerned. you want to start paying the bills for my bees. then you can decide what keeping them means. Otherwise it is fairly rude. arrogant and assuming to think you have anything to say about it or any opinion of it is welcome. So no I don't by your friendly an innocent appraisal of his nature I find it arrogant, intrusive and out of line. It's none of his business why another keeps bees. I keep them because I find the sound of them soothing. what business is that of his.


Isn't it so nice that we can discuss these things in an understanding manner w/out rancor? I think it would be nice if Brian would get into his hive and see what is going on more so than he does. I think it might benefit him and his bees. Whether he does or not is no skin off of my nose. His hives have no real influence on mine.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



sqkcrk said:


> Do you believe that bekeeping is artless?


No I do not find beekeeping an art. I will explain that view with this. Art is a process that forms from within. that may very well be confusing or meaningless to many. Beekeeping is no such thing. it is intuitive and requires interpretation of observations it does require a tremendous development of skills and experience. but that is not art. art is expression, not management.

Edited to add: this question really made me think. Is there a likeness between art and beekeeping that requires the development of skills. For example I want to create a picture that conveys peace and contentment. It will requires some degree that I master physical skills to convey that message. I must learn to apply pen to paper, or brush to canvas in order to achieve my goal. In this beekeeping has a direct connection with art. Most recently and clearly for me woudl be the skill in grafting larva. But in that skill there is no conveyance of a message. And it is there that art and keeping part ways.

I have many developed artistic skill. so much that the skills are something that are o longer forefront in my concerns. If I where to ask most people to draw me a picture. their first and foremost concern woudl be their ability to draw at all. that is not so for me. my first and foremost concern woudl be how to convey what they asked for. I for example am not concerned with how to draw an eye. I a concerned with how to show sorrow in that eye. It is in that conveyance of emotion that art lies.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Daniel Y said:


> . Otherwise it is fairly rude. arrogant and assuming to think you have anything to say about it or any opinion of it is welcome. So no I don't by your friendly an innocent appraisal of his nature I find it arrogant, intrusive and out of line. It's none of his business why another keeps bees.


Brian made it my business, and yours too, by Posting this Thread. Every time anyone Posts a Thread they make thier beekeeping the business of others, the people they are asking advice of. It's what this Forum, beesource.com, is for. You make me think of someone who would call into Car Talk on NPR and then get angry because Tom or Ray told you that you should change your oil or something.

Arrogant? You call me arrogant?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Daniel Y said:


> No I do not find beekeeping an art. I will explain that view with this. Art is a process that forms from within. that may very well be confusing or meaningless to many. Beekeeping is no such thing. it is intuitive and requires interpretation of observations it does require a tremendous development of skills and experience. but that is not art. art is expression, not management.


I can see what you mean. 

If you had ever met and known Richard Taylor you might have a different point of view. He himself was an expression of beekeeping. He was a very artful expression of beekeeping. I would say that he was about as "one w/ the bees" as any beekeeper I have ever known. And there are others I could point to also more or less in the same vein. If art is in the eye of the beholder, as the saying goes, maybe you just don't see it.

Not that you have to see things my way. I'm just expressing myself stimulated by your Post.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Daniel Y said:


> but that is not art. art is expression, not management.


Can't have one without the other. You can express yourself all day long and it be nothing but scribble, but if you have the ability to manage the mediums you work with (pen, paint, clay, metal, bees, etc.), you can create real artwork.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Look, Daniel, w/ as much respect as I can muster, let me say that beekeeping has enriched my life. Had I merely looked at that observation hive at the Smithsonian Institute back in 1958 or '60, whenever that was, and shrugged my shoulders and moved on to the next exhibit there would be so much of what I have experienced, endured, enjoyed, and shared that would not have happened. If my wanting someone else to have just a little bit of that is arrogant, then so be it. 

I see Brian and what he does w/ his bees, yes, from my point of view, as less than it could be. It frustrates me at times. That's my problem. Apparently I frustrate you at times. Nothing I can do about that. That's how you react and only you can control that. I think you often reflect me quite well.

Barry, I got the cursor problem fixed. Got a new server. Mozilla Firefox. Apparently beesource and Windows8 aren't compatible(?).


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Also, I am a child of the '60s. Robert Kennedy said "I see things as they are and ask "Why?" and I see things as they could be and ask "Why not?". So Daniel, I guess it's part of who I am. I'm sorry if you don't like who I am.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

They make pretty good decaf these days.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



sqkcrk said:


> Also, I am a child of the '60s. Robert Kennedy said "I see things as they are and ask "Why?" and I see things as they could be and ask "Why not?". So Daniel, I guess it's part of who I am. I'm sorry if you don't like who I am.


The RFK quote is actually “Some people see things as they are and ask why. I see things as they can be and ask, why not?”


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

THanks BC. I knew someone would clear that up. Guess that proves it. Right?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

I have a day off today so I cracked the hive open. I when down to the second box and it was wall to wall young bees. I am calling it a queen right hive. I used my last box of empty frames and the other two hives are stuffed.

Boy I really don't want to extract in the summer. Maybe it is time to try a wild box super before they swarm?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Acebird said:


> I have a day off today so I cracked the hive open.


Alright!! Way to go Brian!!

Wall to wall young bees? Do you mean brood?
What's a "wild box supper"? I'm sure you meant "super", right? But what's a "wild box" super?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Acebird said:


> Maybe it is time to try a wild box supper before they swarm?


Is that like a church supper but different?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Yes, "super" ... I am starving right now so the fingers were sending me a message.

I just coined the phrase "wild box super". It is just an empty box with a cover that the bees can build comb wiled. I was thinking of mounting strips to the cover on 1 5/16 spacing just to see what the bees would do. I am sure they will make a mess.

BTW I just offered the hive to a friend that suffered heartbreak not getting his bees he ordered out of GA. He might as well enjoy them. I clearly don't have time.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

The following seems to explain the technique :



Acebird said:


> There is another way to play this game if you are willing to render wax. Don't use frames for supers. You don't need to inspect the supers only the brood chamber. Make simple rectangular boxes that fit the Lang with a removable lid and a hole in the center so the bees can go from box to box. At harvest you pull the lid off which will have all the comb attached then crush and strain. Large scale this could be done by machine separating the wax from the honey. There are already machines that exist that do it for capings.


"Wild Box Super" sounds like a pretty good name for an empty hive body and an inner cover with comb hanging from it....


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



sqkcrk said:


> Wall to wall young bees? Do you mean brood?


No I mean young bees they didn't fly. I didn't pull any frames and look for brood but with that many bees almost two months latter after the split there has to be worker brood. There was a lot of brood between the boxes when I split them apart. Most likely drones. I didn't have any foundation to work with this year so they are going to make burr comb everywhere.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

I see.

Your "wild box" idea has been done before. A friend of Johnny Mac's did that w/ deeps because he had boxes but couldn't afford to buy frames and foundation or didn't have the time or something. So he planned on taking piano wire w/ him to take off honey. I hope he fumed the bees down out of the boxes, but who knows. He rendered all of that crossed combed mess, sold the wax for foundation and sold the honey.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

That little thing (State Law) about removable frames?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Throughout this thread I've been stymied by not being able to understand terminology / things being left unexplained. Eg, "stuffed", is the meaning here that one hive looks OK even though no brood was seen, and the other two hives are not OK / dead / close to it?

If so, this was a fairly predictable result and I said so way back in the thread, for reasons I gave at the time.

Ace you now seem to be thinking of giving up beekeeping? I don't think you should, because it's not lack of time, it's that you have never given beekeeping a fair go.

Being an engineer, and a curious fellow, you have overthought beekeeping, before you had any knowledge. And you've decided how beekeeping " should" work, before doing it, and therefore run the hives according to what you think "should" happen, rather than let the bees teach you what they need. It is also obvious you have a major problem opening a hive and especially getting a frame out.

All this is easily solved, you need to spend time with another beekeeper. Some things are hard to do right unless you are taught, and beekeeping is one of them.

If the hive with plenty of bees does have a queen, there is still time to split it into the other hives, just, open the brood area, and make sure each split gets what it needs to succeed, something you did not do last time. But before you do that, see if you can work a few hives with any nearby beekeeper, although the more experienced, the better. The way you are doing it at the moment, I'm sure is a bit of a nightmare for you, but with a little knowledge gained by experience with another beek, your hobby can be very enjoyable.

If you combs are so badly built you just cannot get anything out without smashing comb, maybe don't make any splits, but instead focus on getting your one hive into a condition you can work it. Get some comb foundation, and very carefully, so you don't kill the queen, remove frames that do not have properly built comb. Replace with frames that have comb foundation. Discard the broken comb don't try to fix it. Your hive will then become a pleasure to work.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Saltybee said:


> That little thing (State Law) about removable frames?


Spell out that law for me. Why is it necessary to have removable frames in the honey supers? What is the purpose.

Oldtimer, I think you have lost site of what I have. The other two hives are going nuts, the one that was an overwintered hive and the mother of the split hive. Giving up beehaving, I don't think so. But I don't think I should have 3 hives going gangbusters when I really don't have time for one. I would give two hives away if I was assured that one would make it through winter.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

You're good man, Oldtimer.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Thanks Lauri

Ace, pleased you are not going out of bees. But do consider working with someone else. Those
splits you last made. A little more attention to the basics could have made them a success. Doing things wrong and not getting a result is a waste of whatever time you spent doing it. Spending an extra 5 or 10 minutes doing it properly would have actually saved you time.

You are not short of time, rather, you are not using your time to best effect, which would actually give you time.

You would like less hives? Can't though. Because you don't know what's happening inside so need a good number to ensure some survive. Another argument against bee having. If you knew what was going on & managed them you could safely reduce the number of hives you have to have, saving further time.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Acebird said:


> Spell out that law for me. Why is it necessary to have removable frames in the honey supers? What is the purpose


Honey super? What's a honey super? What's a honey super to a honeybee? Are honey supers boxes which queens won't lay eggs in?

By State Law, in NY anyway, and most other States in The Union, bee hives are required to have removable and inspectable combs. The Bee Laws may actually specify removable frames. Queen bees don't know that they aren't supposed to lay eggs in what beekeepers call honey supers. If they do, they don't seem to care. So, all combs must be removable for disease inspection, by Law.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Hive has been moved to friends house less then 2 miles away. I hope they re-orient so I don't have 20,000 lost bees in my yard.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Acebird said:


> Hive has been moved to friends house less then 2 miles away. I hope they re-orient so I don't have 20,000 lost bees in my yard.



Were branches or some object placed to partially obstruct the entrance to encourage reorienting?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Moved two miles? They won't return to Brian's house. I gare on tee.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



Acebird said:


> less then 2 miles away.



Are we reading the same posts? 

Is the "gare on tee" still good?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

I think so. I also know what things are like where Brian lives. It's very urban, not open fields or farm land. So, yeah, I believe that the "gare on tee" will hold. Not that we will ever really know. It isn't like anybody will mark bees to see how many show up at Brian's house.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

I suspect that Acebird knows the exact distance. 

And I believe that bees use the same navigation behavior regardless of the environment.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

Very well. I still stand by what I said. Ah gare aun tee!! That's Cajun, by the way.

You are going to like the way [it] looks. I garuntee it. For the Yankees in the audience.

(why doesn't spell check just fix the spelling if it is so sure the spelling is wrong?)


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*

I sold one from my house (urban) a few months ago to a guy 1.1 miles away, by my odometer. No bees returned.

I put this down to the area being rich in bee fodder so they don't fly far anyway, plus hilly, lots of trees, and the purchasers garden being a kind of little environment of it's own with trees etc the bees would have been well aware they had been moved soon as they exited the hive & would have taken new bearings.

We were worried they would return, but didn't happen.

Moved an established swarm once from a neighbour around 400 yards away, didn't go well, not a happy experience. After two days of them being harassed, I put the hive in the old location, then picked it up at night and moved it far away.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Take the pole, queenless or not*



BeeCurious said:


> Were branches or some object placed to partially obstruct the entrance to encourage reorienting?


yup. I put and empty box with brood comb in the old hive position and there was no more than 25 bees around the box the next day. Today nothing.

Now Park Outdoor is going to cut down the 2 ft dia. tree next to the remaining hives. This should be a show.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Tree trimmers showed uo to work around power poles in my beeyard. They took a look, rolled down the window 1/4 inch and said "We'll be back in January."


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

They worked all day in the blistering heat with 50, 000 bees wizzing by. I told them not to point the exhaust of an 80 foot man lift and guess who got stung in the ear when they were done? Me. How can they sting without leaving a stinger? It doesn't hurt it just itches.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It happens. A drop of venom.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Are you saying venom on top of the skin will have a reaction but much less than an actual sting?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

yes


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I see said the blind man as he picked up the hammer and saw.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

This true. If you do a lot of work with leather bee gloves you may never actually feel a bee sting but if your gloves have lots of stingers on them your hands will be red and itchy at the end of the day.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I shouldn't tell this story..it is kind of gross so don't read it if you are a delicate person
We have a friend..older hillbilly type that is pretty backwoods. We were hunting in Idaho for two weeks when he came into the wall tent asking for some Vicks Vapo rub. My husband said" God! You don't want to put that on, the elk will smell you a mile away!"
He said, "I'm not going to put it on my chest, it's for my hemorrhoids!" Then, standing around the campfire we listened in slight horror as he told us more details than we wanted to know, including how he swipes them first with alcohol. He also has narcolepsy, and that little procedure helps keep him awake while he drives.

Why am I telling you this? Well that little drop of bee venom that stung Brian's skin might be our buddies new therapy! I'll have to write him and tell him, LOL If anyone would try it its's him!

Sorry..I need more coffee to offset my bad morning humor


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Lauri said:


> he told us more details than we wanted to know


Lauri, 

Thanks for the very touching  story. 

In your free time you could work on a script for another "Old Yeller" (It isn't what you think) Disney film... 

I can see the reviews now : 
"Breath taking performance by older backwoods hillbilly guy", "You'll be on the edge of your seat", "Not a dry eye in the house".....


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Hee hee, you're as sick as I am


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Lauri said:


> I shouldn't tell this story..it is kind of gross so don't read it if you are a delicate person
> We have a friend..older hillbilly type that is pretty backwoods. We were hunting in Idaho for two weeks when he came into the wall tent asking for some Vicks Vapo rub. My husband said" God! You don't want to put that on, the elk will smell you a mile away!"
> He said, "I'm not going to put it on my chest, it's for my hemorrhoids!" Then, standing around the campfire we listened in slight horror as he told us more details than we wanted to know, including how he swipes them first with alcohol. He also has narcolepsy, and that little procedure helps keep him awake while he drives.
> 
> ...


Thanks Lauri. Some things can't be unread. Though you did warn us.


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