# Protein patty supplementation



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Janne,

First, I was really glad to see you posting because I am hoping that means that you and your daughter are doing well and that your world (personal, professional and bee-wise) is getting back on track.

I am also glad you asked this question because I have been wondering about Fall pollen sub feeding as a way to build Oliver's "Fat Bees" for winter. I have asked locally (I'm in northern NY) and been told that it might not be a good idea here because of the differences between our very cold winters and Oliver's in CA. And, of course, I am not getting my bees ready for an early brood build-up for the almonds in late Jan/Feb. Up here I want my bees to still be loafing along in deep-winter mode then as they still have a couple of months to go before flight weather returns. Your climate, though north of CA, is not as cold as mine, sort of in between, I think.

Three things about pollen sub come to mind: 1) don't feed it when it's so cold the bees can't get out on regular cleansing flights siince the protein content makes them need to poop more urgently; 2) uneaten pollen patties are prime chow for SHB, so you want to give them only what they can defend and scarf down pretty quickly; and 3) what I use for pollen sub is Global Patties and they, at least, have a hefty amount of sugar in them in addition to pollen and Latshaw's BeeFood, so they are not pure "pollen".

Oliver was doing some controlled experiments on various home-brew pollen sub recipes and commercial brands last winter with results supposedly known in February (2014). But I haven't seen anything published, yet. Looking forward to reading it, however.

I put patty on last spring on March 23 and was pleased with the acceptance and had almost too-explosive brood build-up (which may be normal, or the result of the prolonged, never-ending winter that just suddenly gave it up and turned warm in the second week of April). I keep my box of patty in the freezer and I had a bit left over. I used small chunks of the left-over slabs for "treats" when I particularly wanted to coddle my bees over the summer (after treating for mites with a chemical reputed to stress brood production, etc.) I think it probably did more for me than the bees, but they were very polite and gobbled it up promptly, which was gratifying.

Finally, I think the pollen in pollen sub has been irradiated to kill bee disease spores, bacteria, etc. Pollen for human consumption might not be treated since we can't get Foul Brood, etc. It might have the same risk as feeding out-of-your-apiary honey to your bees. Fine for humans, but risky for the bees.

Be well!

Enj.


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## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Fat bees are a normal part of the hive. The Fat bees are the ones that are emerging from the later part of the summer through shutdown of the queen for the year. They are fed a mixture that makes them more FAT than the normal lean spring bees. It is so that these FAT bees can manage a little longer without food while they wait to get moved in a hive during a cold spell. 

Pollen subs that are fed to hives with no need for them "ie.. Already bringing in plenty pollen" will normally ignore the sub and keep going with what they are getting from the wild. However, pollen subs are very attractive to SHB and will actually help draw them into the hive. 

When I feed pollen SUB I do so early in spring when nothing is coming in naturally and I feed it to them dry. They have no problem taking it into the hive and using it. If you have late NUC's or hives without a natural pollen store going into winter, they can benefit from pollen SUB feeding at this time. 

As for the stuff that is able to be consumed by humans, I'd try a little to see what happens with one hive and judge by that. IT may or may not be treated with some type of processing that takes the good stuff away from it that bees need. Just have to try on a hive..


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Thanks for your thoughts. I haven't got into the bees yet...still at the hospital with my daughter most days...drop by work just tend with any issues  but I still think of, worry about and plan for, the bees and that I do have time for as I sit here and I am always interested in how others manage their bees.

Bee thinking had an end of season sale...I ordered a tbh and a warre hive...things to play with in the spring...must keep looking forward with a hopeful outlook

Now to find the time to pick them up!


enjambres said:


> Janne,
> 
> First, I was really glad to see you posting because I am hoping that means that you and your daughter are doing well and that your world (personal, professional and bee-wise) is getting back on track.
> 
> ...


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## tacomabees (May 2, 2013)

Janne, this is a recipe our local (and beesource) Laurie has contributed in the past. I have used it on my hives for several years with really good success. I'm just south of you, and have had this on my hives for about two weeks now. They are still bringing in pollen, but they will use this immediately and not store it...I cut the recipe in half or even quarter it for smaller amounts. You can freeze it too...for more details you can go here: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Miller-Compound-HoneyBees-and-Agriculture/256954971040510


Lauri's protein patty recipe:
-25# cane sugar
-2 quarts cold water
-2 quarts apple cider vinegar
-1-2 cups olive oil- depending on your desired fat content
-a sprinkle of electrolytes & vitamins, about 1 tsp.
-about 1 T Citric &/or acsorbic acid
-splash of Mann Lake Pro health or other essential oil of choice
Mix these ingredients in a five gallon bucket, mix well with a drill and paint mixer paddle.
Add about:
-20 cups Mann Lake BEE PRO ..mix well
add a few cups at a time:
-aprox 20 cups Mann Lake Brewers yeast 

(Dry ingredient measurements are approximate, I just dump it in a bit at a time with a big scoop) There is a real fine line between too soft and too dry. Bees like it soft, but not so it oozes down through the frames. I place a scoop on food grade dry waxed paper with another piece on top to keep it from drying out. Mix it a little softer than desired-it will thicken up a bit as it sets. Let it sit in the bucket for about an hour before serving


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## kingd (Oct 31, 2013)

I wonder if the Small hive beetles would go after it?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

They will typically ignore or haul out sub if there is real pollen coming in. I wouldn't bother if you can see them bringing in pollen.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Is cane sauger just regular table sugar? We don't seem to have SHB here..but we do have wax moths.

thanks for the recipe....I will need to make a Man lake order.



tacomabees said:


> Janne, this is a recipe our local (and beesource) Laurie has contributed in the past. I have used it on my hives for several years with really good success. I'm just south of you, and have had this on my hives for about two weeks now. They are still bringing in pollen, but they will use this immediately and not store it...I cut the recipe in half or even quarter it for smaller amounts. You can freeze it too...for more details you can go here: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Miller-Compound-HoneyBees-and-Agriculture/256954971040510
> 
> 
> Lauri's protein patty recipe:
> ...


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I am feeding my nucs and late splits Global Patties that I get out of Butte Montana. The bees find them palatable whenever I feed them. I use the ones formulated with 15% bee pollen. I get faster build up than without them when building up splits or nucs. I start feeding this product in February here timed to when I estimate that the first tree pollens will become available. I want bees raised on it to have real pollen to feed on after emerging. I do this out of an abundance of caution. 

Millions of pounds of bees being raised for the almond pollination circus are raised on supplement. If the people who crunch their input numbers have decided that it pays to feed suppliments, I am not going to argue. Granted some patties purchased from the big suppliers dry up and just lay on the top bars like turds until you throw them away. The Global patties seldom go to waste. The only ones I throw away came off deadouts that dwindled for some reason and I don't want to recycle that 'Reason". Just get patties fresh and use them fresh. Some studies have shown alarming deterioration in supplement over time in storage. Any not immediately being used are kept frozen.


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

Vance G said:


> Granted some patties purchased from the big suppliers dry up and just lay on the top bars like turds until you throw them away.


Best quote of the day, made me laugh.

I'm still feeding pollen patties (big box suppliers) and made the mistake of putting a full patty on a week hive. SHB larvae infested it. Now I'm cutting them up in about playing card size and they are taking it as well as bringing in orange pollen right now. Seen a huge increase in bees in the last few weeks.


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## chickenia (Apr 13, 2012)

YES, they do....however, if the patties are not too large, the bees do gobble it up quickly thereby the SHB don't get too much of a chance at it


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Are Global Patties a specific make or are they a generic "type" of patty? I ask as some speak of winter patties...what are the differences?

Also the patty's I have used are gooey and come smashed between thin paper...they tend to stick together in the box and the paper is hard to peel off..especially with gloves on.

Can one feed them with the paper on? For freezing I guess you have to break down the box to individual bars and freeze separately..others it would be a solid block.





Vance G said:


> I am feeding my nucs and late splits Global Patties that I get out of Butte Montana. The bees find them palatable whenever I feed them. I use the ones formulated with 15% bee pollen. I get faster build up than without them when building up splits or nucs. I start feeding this product in February here timed to when I estimate that the first tree pollens will become available. I want bees raised on it to have real pollen to feed on after emerging. I do this out of an abundance of caution.
> 
> Millions of pounds of bees being raised for the almond pollination circus are raised on supplement. If the people who crunch their input numbers have decided that it pays to feed suppliments, I am not going to argue. Granted some patties purchased from the big suppliers dry up and just lay on the top bars like turds until you throw them away. The Global patties seldom go to waste. The only ones I throw away came off deadouts that dwindled for some reason and I don't want to recycle that 'Reason". Just get patties fresh and use them fresh. Some studies have shown alarming deterioration in supplement over time in storage. Any not immediately being used are kept frozen.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

globalpatties.com will reach them and you can hopefully find a dealer closer to you so freight isn't a killer. The paper stays on as it helps keep them from drying out. They are not winter patties which are expensive sugar and a little (3%) protein mixed in. The paper is chewed up and will become an integral part of numerous bird nests next spring. They are the real deal IMO. I have no position with the company but I wished I owned it as people working that hard at providing a top quality product and better service HAVE to be making money!


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## chickenia (Apr 13, 2012)

I am a hobby BK with seven thriving hives  I tried to get Global patties last year, but the quantity was not practical for me, plus shipping....too much. I have been making my own from Lauri's patties posted above and they LOVE them!!!!!!!!!! I had tried some other top brand protein patties and the girls wouldn't touch them!!!! I am happy to make what I need and freeze, some folks are so impressed with my girls that they want me to make theirs too! I keep them in the wax paper, if not the heat in the hive dries them out and they get HARD.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

The Ontario Tech Transfer team did a study comparing pollen patties. Global did okay, but this homemade recipe from Dave Mendes performed the best:

http://www.ontariobee.com/sites/ontariobee.com/files/document/Homemade Protein Supplement Recipe.pdf


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## chickenia (Apr 13, 2012)

That is great that there are some good recipes out there, I have been so pleased with Lauri's, I won't switch from what I am doing right now....but, good luck on the Canadian patties!


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

zhiv9 said:


> The Ontario Tech Transfer team did a study comparing pollen patties. Global did okay, but this homemade recipe from Dave Mendes performed the best:
> 
> http://www.ontariobee.com/sites/ontariobee.com/files/document/Homemade Protein Supplement Recipe.pdf


Adam, do you know which OBA TTP research year that came from? Not doubting you, just that I'm interested in reading it.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Down here just south of you guys and I am right in the middle of trying it for the first time. Commercial Beek came in to give a talk and said if you want big honey crops you had better move since most of our flow is in the spring. I am wondering if I can build them with the Randy Oliver method and when they start to backfill in the spring harvest the frames out of the sides of the brood box? I am hoping it will help with swarm control and honey production. If not the supplement may just make my swarming problems early and worse.
I found it way too easy to pull the wax paper off the top of the patties. I hope they do not all dry out to junk.


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## scituatema (Aug 30, 2014)

angel said:


> Adam, do you know which OBA TTP research year that came from? Not doubting you, just that I'm interested in reading it.


Does anyone know how to prepare dried whole eggs in that recipe?


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

angel said:


> Adam, do you know which OBA TTP research year that came from? Not doubting you, just that I'm interested in reading it.


It was in an issue of the Ontario Bee Journal earlier this year, so I think the research was done in the 2013 season. It is not publicly available to non-members yet. Patties were put on colonies sent for blueberry pollination. Colonies were evaluated when they returned. There were control colonies and colonies fed either homedmade sub, global or beepro. A very brief summary of the results:

5lbs was better than 3lbs
Colonies fed the homemade substitute had significantly more bees and brood
The bees consumed more and stored less of the homemade substitute in the comb.
Global outperformed Beepro was lagged homemade.

Hopefully they will publish this for all to see in the near future.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

scituatema said:


> Does anyone know how to prepare dried whole eggs in that recipe?


It is the hardest to get of the ingredients. you have to get them from a wholesaler.


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## rmdial (Jun 30, 2009)

I highly recommend Laurie's recipe referenced above. I have tried pre-made patties from several sources with mixed results. Same old story, side by side hives with one eating it up and the other not touching it. Anyway, after using Laurie's recipe my bees are taking it and building up very well. Native pollen is also coming in and they seem very happy with both. We have had an awful year due to an uncharacteristic very hot dry summer. Hottest July on record with wildflowers and noxious weeds drying up soon after blossom. Here that means knapweed and mullen. Now my bees seem back on track building up for winter.

This pollen sub mixture seems to be a great help.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

scituatema said:


> Does anyone know how to prepare dried whole eggs in that recipe?


I can get it a food supply store called Galloways...it is pricy...14$ per pound.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

WBVC said:


> 14$ per pound.


Yikes.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Yikes.


Definitely yikes. If someone knows of less pricy source that doesn't have a shipping yikes let folks know.


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## tacomabees (May 2, 2013)

WBVC said:


> Is cane sauger just regular table sugar? We don't seem to have SHB here..but we do have wax moths.
> 
> thanks for the recipe....I will need to make a Man lake order.


Yes, cane sugar is regular table sugar. I get it in 50# bags for $21.95 a bag (up from 19.80 in the spring), or 25# bags for 12.00 or so from Costco.

I checked my hives today and added more pollen patties' as the ones I had put on two weeks ago were virtually all consumed. All hives were bringing in bright orange and yellow pollen as well....


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

WBVC said:


> I can get it a food supply store called Galloways...it is pricy...14$ per pound.


I think the recipe posted uses something like this.

http://brookside-agra.com/product_spec_pdf/Inedible_Eggs.pdf

I always check out these threads looking for solid information that I can use.

In my inexperienced opinion these threads on Pollen Sub should start with these questions.

1. What is the balanced nutritional requirements of bees?

2. What are the most cost effective ingredients that provide this nutrition in a way bees can utilize?

3 How can we get the bees to consume these ingredients rapidly and in large amounts?

4. The relationship between cost to use and benefit provided.

Good luck finding the answers to the first two!


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## Tony Rogers (Oct 18, 2012)

I have been playing with the Ontario recipe listed on Randy Oliver's scientificbeekeeping.com As dried whole egg is expensive, I used raw egg. From what I read, an average moisture content is 75 percent so I subtracted the total water content from the raw egg from the amount of water that we are suppose to add to the recipe. My question is, to bees, does it matter if the egg is raw or dried being dried egg is cooked?


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

Tony Rogers said:


> As dried whole egg is expensive, I used raw egg. My question is, to bees, does it matter if the egg is raw or dried being dried egg is cooked?


Good question, I'd like to know as well since I'd be supporting local farmers in my area instead of purchasing dried eggs.


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## Tony Rogers (Oct 18, 2012)

angel said:


> Good question, I'd like to know as well since I'd be supporting local farmers in my area instead of purchasing dried eggs.


Angel, let's hope someone on the forum will be able to tell us. I've made a couple batches using raw egg and the bees seem to love it.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Tony Rogers said:


> I've made a couple batches using raw egg and the bees seem to love it.


Same here...I've been making my pollen substitute with raw egg yolks...not the egg whites...and the bees love it. Now, my initial thought for not adding the egg white, is because egg whites contain avidin...which is a biotin binding protein. Biotin binding proteins do have insecticidal properties. Cooking/heating, inactivates avidin...
Biotin being necessary for cell growth, the production of fatty acids, and the metabolism of fats and amino acids in general, I was concerned that avidin in the egg whites, would interfere somehow with the protein metabolism in the hive. 

However, my fears were a bit reduced after I read this:http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/05/03/03.html
Full article here:http://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/pdf/2002/05/03.pdf

Even though the bees according to this study seem to cope with the level avidin presented to them, I still use only the yolks. 
But that is just me. 
And yes, I also adjust the water/liquid part of the mixture to compensate for the moisture provide by the egg yolk.


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## Tony Rogers (Oct 18, 2012)

Apis Maximus,

Excellent info. Thanks


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## Jaseemtp (Nov 29, 2010)

To start off I am lazy!
I also live in the South were SHB are a problem. What I do is open feed dry pollen sub in a PVC feeder. This allows the bees to take all they want but not have an over abundance where the beetles would become a problem.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Here in my area of California, it's not all just about the almonds. Bees need their fats and proteins from the pollen in the fall in order to raise healthy young bees to take the hive through winter. I don't have any late summer or fall flows, so if I don't feed pollen sub then they have unhealthy bees into winter and suffer from that or can die out. I also theorize that the lack of flows in late summer and fall are also a factor in how bad the varroa can get in a hive, because the bees are already stressed from lack of good forage and stores. I feed pollen sub for the bees health into winter, not for unusual early populations for almond pollinations. If you keep bees where there are natural fall flows with good amounts of pollen, then I don't see the need for fall feeding of pollen sub.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I opened up the 4 hives here at the house with pollen sub and nobody touched it. I ran 2 miles down the road and the first hive had nothing but a couple of quarter size pieces, second one was still pretty much all there and the next two were almost all gone. Not even wax paper left so I hope they are eating it and not just doing some house keeping before winter.


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