# Just wasted an hour vaping from the bottom.



## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Well, I figured If I put a lot of vape in there, it'll definitely fill the boxes, right?

Wrong - I did a little experiment with some empty boxes. I vaped from the bottom and I didn't see any vape get up into the second deep...

Warning to folks who vape from the bottom - with pan heater vaporizers etc, it doesn't work...


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

username00101 said:


> Well, I figured If I put a lot of vape in there, it'll definitely fill the boxes, right?
> 
> Wrong - I did a little experiment with some empty boxes. I vaped from the bottom and I didn't see any vape get up into the second deep...
> 
> Warning to folks who vape from the bottom - with pan heater vaporizers etc, it doesn't work...


Now try it in a 2 deep hive that contains a colony of bees and afterwards be sure to come back here and edit your ridiculous post.
You need a mentor.


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## ncbeez (Aug 25, 2015)

username00101 said:


> Well, I figured If I put a lot of vape in there, it'll definitely fill the boxes, right?
> 
> Wrong - I did a little experiment with some empty boxes. I vaped from the bottom and I didn't see any vape get up into the second deep...
> 
> Warning to folks who vape from the bottom - with pan heater vaporizers etc, it doesn't work...


I used to use a pan heater . Always from the bottom and would get vapor coming out of every crack. You need to have bees in the box for it to be a reliable experiment, after all you won't be treating an empty box for varroa would you. I still have my pan heater for backup, just switched to the "easy vap" for speed and better consistency.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Do the bees move it around?

Because the vapor did NOT leave the bottom box.

So unless the bees are moving it around quite a lot...

Pan heaters don't work on double deeps.

Experiment was boxes, with frames, and all standard equipment. No bees. Fumes only entered the bottom single box, did not go any higher.

I tried this twice, same result - conclusion: Vaping from the bottom does not work.

I used 5 grams, same result - no vape in top box.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

This is simply not true. 
If you listen, when vaporizing a hive you will hear the bees start to hum.
Also, as ncbees said, you will often see wisps of vapor coming out of cracks between the hive bodies and from the cover. 

Otherwise, all my bees would be dead since I only use OAV and mostly from the bottom. 
The wands are slow and not as convenient as the Easyvap but they do work.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

username00101 said:


> I tried this twice, same result - conclusion: Vaping from the bottom does not work.


Even though I have no experience in this - but an immediate point to be maid - the bees ventilate things about (especially, some foreign, unwanted substance they'd rather to get rid of).
And you are testing things in, basically, "vacuum". 
Then make some global conclusions.
I dunno UN what you are thinking - but the Internet will remember this one.
LOL


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

username00101 said:


> Do the bees move it around?
> 
> Because the vapor did NOT leave the bottom box.
> 
> ...


I'll have to tell my friend who uses Varrox for his double deep+medium hives and send me pictures of 100s of dead mites on the inspection boards after the treatments.


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## Kuro (Jun 18, 2015)

username00101 said:


> Vaping from the bottom does not work.


Hot OA vapor will rise. As it cools it will fall. When a vaporizer is inserted from the hive bottom, the amount of OA vapor reaching to the hive top can be affected by the hive temperature, as well as bee activity.

In my experience with a wand-type vaporizer (pan heater) inserted from the bottom entrance of a double-deep, OA vapor mostly leaks out from the hive top, when the outside temperature is >45F (unfortunately I do not know the inside temperature). When it is <40F, however, OA vapor mostly leaks out from the bottom, probably resulting in underdosing of OA, especially when bees are clustered near the hive top.

That’s why I do OAV at >45F whenever possible. This may not matter much if your application method is different (using a band heater vaporizer, vaping from the hive top, vaping single deeps, and etc).


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

I am simply stating the results of my experiment - the vapor didn't rise above the 2nd box.

So feel free to conduct your own research...but the results without bees in the box are obvious to me.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

username00101 said:


> I am simply stating the results of my experiment - the vapor didn't rise above the 2nd box.
> 
> So feel free to conduct your own research...but the results without bees in the box are obvious to me.


I have done experiments, except in mine, I put 40,000 tiny fans inside and subsequently had vapor exiting out the top. 

Alex


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

username00101 said:


> I am simply stating the results of my experiment - the vapor didn't rise above the 2nd box.
> 
> So feel free to conduct your own research...but the results without bees in the box are obvious to me.



Oh no. What motivates such misleading statements on such a regular basis? Is it intentional?

You *warned *people about pan vaporizers not working.

*"Warning to folks who vape from the bottom - with pan heater vaporizers etc, it doesn't work..."*


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

This is "Tilting at Windmills "
Fighting imaginary enemies. 
Proving the inefficacy of something no one does.

What's the point?


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## KellyW (May 16, 2020)

This morning I treated 2 double deep and one triple deep colonies using a pan vaporizer. On the triple I took the telescoping cover off momentarily to see if vapor was reaching the top. The OAV was coming out the inner cover hole. Seemed to be working fine for me. Outside temp was 54F.


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## Boondocks (Sep 16, 2020)

I wonder if the heater (glow point?) in the wand is defective. They may be replaceable. When they go bad they just don't get hot enough to vaporize and just kind of boil the OA with not much vapor produced.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I have done many experiments with vapor inserted in the bottom, middle and top in an observation hive full of bees and have come to the conclusion that the vapor needs to displace air and if you do not have a good upper vent you sometimes do not get full coverage in the upper box especialy in the top corners. Quite frankly All I observed in bee activity was mass run around and panic which also led me to believe that bees would most likely break cluster when the vapor appeared. I also found that no matter how you apply, most of the crystals fall onto horizontal surfaces and I prefer to treat from above or between brood chambers. However getting vapor into the hive whichever way grabs you is still going to kill mites but for higher efficacy one looks at the greatest coverage possible.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

The air volume in a hive full of frames, a feeder and bees is a small fraction of the air volume in empty boxes.
As a dose of OA is changed to vapor, there is a massive increase in volume.
The air and vapor have to go somewhere. A hive is not a balloon.
The volume of vapor introduced into a hive causes an exact amount of air, and or vapor escaping the hive.
The vapor will travel through the hive with frames and bees much faster than empty boxes proportional to decreased air volume.
Flawed study.


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## ncbeez (Aug 25, 2015)

johno said:


> I have done many experiments with vapor inserted in the bottom, middle and top in an observation hive full of bees and have come to the conclusion that the vapor needs to displace air and if you do not have a good upper vent you sometimes do not get full coverage in the upper box especialy in the top corners. Quite frankly All I observed in bee activity was mass run around and panic which also led me to believe that bees would most likely break cluster when the vapor appeared. I also found that no matter how you apply, most of the crystals fall onto horizontal surfaces and I prefer to treat from above or between brood chambers. However getting vapor into the hive whichever way grabs you is still going to kill mites but for higher efficacy one looks at the greatest coverage possible.


Johno, from the observation hive results your giving us it makes me want to drill a hole in the top lip of some of my boxes and treat from the middle with the easy vap. It seems to work well through the back of the bottom board but mid brood chamber sounds like a good idea. Just hope I get the holes drilled where there won't be any obstruction.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

ncbeez said:


> Johno, from the observation hive results your giving us it makes me want to drill a hole in the top lip of some of my boxes and treat from the middle with the easy vap. It seems to work well through the back of the bottom board but mid brood chamber sounds like a good idea. Just hope I get the holes drilled where there won't be any obstruction.


A 7/32" hole centerd in the back as close to the top of the frame rest as possible without breaking through the top wall works for me as you can see from this old video.


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## kkmrk (Mar 27, 2016)

I treat from top plexiglass top cover. One can quickly see it’s the bees circulating air that moves OAV throughout.


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

When I was using a pan, I had a concern about setting the hive on fire going in from the bottom and then saw an article for a top "Hot Box" which was a shallow sized super with a hinged lid and a slot cut into to hold the wand. It was written by someone in my bee club that was a copy of an Eastern European rig and from his video it looked safer than shoving a hot metal thingy into a box of bees and wax. I built two and they seemed to work pretty good, throw an old towel over the bottom entrance, close the lid and fire it up. Worked pretty good but I moved onto a 110 unit. Problem was you had to pull the top and keep the bees in while I did the deed. Much more work than a quarter inch hole in the back of the hive. Maybe up in the cold this type of thing would work better with downward flow.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

HarryVanderpool said:


> The air volume in a hive full of frames, a feeder and bees is a small fraction of the air volume in empty boxes.
> As a dose of OA is changed to vapor, there is a massive increase in volume.
> The air and vapor have to go somewhere. A hive is not a balloon.
> The volume of vapor introduced into a hive causes an exact amount of air, and or vapor escaping the hive.
> ...


Harry, in my above post I indicated that I had all the frames and everything in there - just no bees. It wasn't an empty box. The results were clear: bottom vaping is not effective for double deeps. Even 5 grams didn't help - just sat on the bottom, barely reaching the 2nd deep. I tried it 3 times now - inject the OAV from the front entrance - The vapor barely makes it into the 2nd deep. Makes sense that it would need to displace air - but I even removed the lid.... a tiny stream went up on one side but did NOT evenly distribute.

If anyone here wants to try to replicate the study - go for it, let us know what you find.

Vaporizer was fine. Not a pan heater.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

How much volume do bees occupy?
In an average healthy hive; ALOT!
6 - 10 lbs of bees occupy a lot of space.


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

How long did it take for the OAV to vaporize and what was the condition/charge state of your battery when you started? I have had problems with the OAV not dispersing well with a low battery. I think it did not get hot enough and did not disperse very well. 

For the concerns about lighting a hive on fire I now have a 3/4" shim between the bottom board and the first box in my hives. This gives me some space between the wand and the frames to reduce the chance of lighting the hive on fire. I also slide a steel sheet into the bottom of the hive so the hot wand is not sitting directly on the wood/wax bits/ect. I do run a solid bottom board, this may not be a concern with screened bottoms. Keep in mind that the steel sheet will dissipate the heat from the wand if it is in good contact with it.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

I have "experimented" with it many times, and my findings are quite different. When I vapr from the bottom, using either a pan or a band type, vapors come out of every crack and crevice in the hive, including the top vent.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Whenever you see vapor coming out of cracks and seams you can be sure that that is where the air inside the hive is being displaced so the vapor follows, however it is the tight hives with no upper vent that could be a problem.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

johno said:


> I have come to the conclusion that the vapor needs to displace air and if you do not have a good upper vent you sometimes do not get full coverage in the upper box especialy in the top corners.


Agreed, I use a forced air vaporizer so my observations aren’t very relevant to this discussion but I’ve always felt that if your equipment and lid is tight that expecting the vapor to flow up is a bit like trying to blow into a pop bottle, there has to be some avenue of upper air escape.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Kudos if the pan heater some folks use works. But for me, clearly it doesn't. I will have to repeat the treatment next time we get temps warm enough to do so.

Had I not experimented. I'd have felt good about my "treatment". Which didn't even get out of the bottom box.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

username00101 said:


> Wrong - I did a little experiment with some empty boxes. I vaped from the bottom and I didn't see any vape get up into the second deep...
> 
> Warning to folks who vape from the bottom - with pan heater vaporizers etc, it doesn't work...


🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 you beeless test tell you long proven methods don't work? pop the lid on a dubble deep with bees post vape and tell me what you see



clyderoad said:


> Now try it in a 2 deep hive that contains a colony of bees and afterwards be sure to come back here and edit your ridiculous post.


this ^

OA dust is dust, its heaver then air , is circulated thew the hive by the bees faning... thas on reason why it has poor results when its cold and the bees are tightly clustered

OB hive with bees





OB hive without bees


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Since this has somehow become controversial, probably because I said it doesn't work, I'd happily take a video of my test and you can see for yourselves.

It's not that complicated of a design.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

I still dont understand why you dont do the test on a box of bees and see how that goes? I dont doubt that you saw what you saw. But why not try someof the things suggested? For my part, i will take into consideration that you are correct, vaping a colony without any bees does not work: does not kill a single mite. Since i dont have a dog in this fight i will take your word for it and not waste my time trying it. Let us know how much vapour comes out the upper entrance when you vape a box that has bees in it. And let us know what your mite drop is. Then we can determine for ouselves if it works or not. And then we can have a substantive debate in best practices.
But for now, you definitely win: pan heaters are useless when used in a box with neither bees nor mites.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

There is no controversy. 
But you are comparing apples to oranges. 
A hive with no bees is a dead air space. 

Do your experiment with a hive of bees and you'll see the difference. 

Also consider the results. 
For years we used a wand and the hives came through winter strong. Before that, when my buddy was "treatment free" he had 100% losses.
After using the wand I would check the sticky board and find hundreds of dead mites. 

Now we use the Easyvap. Some hives we treat from the bottom and others from the middle with NO difference in survival rate. 

So don't despair. But also don't draw conclusions from an experiment like the one you did.


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## gator75 (Apr 21, 2021)

Title is accurate. If you vaped a hive for an hour without bees in it, you absolutely wasted an hour.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

I have been running three deeps for five years and use a Varrox wand. I used to do before and after sugar shakes and I always had good numbers after a series, so I don't bother with them anymore. I also do one formic treatment late summer to get below the cappings to get them as clean as possible for winter bee production. I use a full teaspoon for 3 deeps. I haven't lost a hive yet. Yet.
I do believe atmospheric conditions effect vapor rise. Low humidity seems to be most effective. I also shun the advice to seal up the hives with tape. I like to see a little leaking out. A little. If you have a tightly sealed hive, I bet you would see vapors if you cracked the outer cover. I have never found this necessary.
It's encouraged to post results of a little experiment, but making a blanket statement that treating from below with a wand " doesn't work" will rightly expose you to ridicule from those who have successfully done it for years. Perhaps you should have just posted your observations and asked for input instead of jumping to a conclusion. This is especially true with an "old" technology that has been proven by thousands of beekeepers and put through actual experiments that have already been challenged. 
I believe most would agree that vaping from the top seems to provide evidence that the vapors will fall. Maybe this is better. That doesn't mean vaping from the bottom doesn't work. Many like me think the disadvantages outweigh the potential benefits, so we carry on and still kill mites effectively with less hassle. J


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Could also be that the wand vaporizers release hotter vapor, so it rises above the first box.

I used a band heater, once the vapor is beyond 4 inches from the output, the temperature is similar to the room.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

I'm confused: in your op you said you used a "pan." does that fall into the category of "wand" or "band" vaporizer? I was picturing a wand....


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

username00101 said:


> Could also be that the wand vaporizers release hotter vapor, so it rises above the first box.
> 
> I used a band heater, once the vapor is beyond 4 inches from the output, the temperature is similar to the room.


I use a band heater.

Alex


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## adrock (Mar 19, 2021)

So….. has this dead horse been beaten yet?


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

To a pulp. And whipped. And we are still kicking!


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I don't know guys...
I just put a sticky board under an empty hive for 48 hours and found no mites, people are wasting there time looking for mites, the world needs to know this !!!


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## thill (Nov 30, 2020)

I use a wand, and vapor pours out of every crack and out of the lid. I don't like that some bees get cooked in the process, but better than a mite killed hive.
Good enough for me


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## bricknerdn (Dec 5, 2020)

The bigger question here is: "why are you using OA vaporization at this time of the year for mite reduction". The normal daytime temperatures from the Florida/Alabama state line and north is low enough to use Formic Pro or Mite Away Quick Strips to obtain a 99% mite kill in an extended release application. OA vaporization might achieve a 70% kill of the phoretic mites, but that number will be replaced in short order if there is still brood in the hive.


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## oldsap (May 1, 2016)

This link to one of Ian Stepplers videos should help you. 



 I know he uses single deeps but when we vape we use double deeps and more and have no problem with the vapors coming out the top as well as everywhere else. We use a wand and a Provap and both work well (I will say the Provap is faster). I would do as others suggest check and see if temperature is hot enough. And possibly your oxalic acid is not up to snuff.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

vaporizer is fine, so is the oxalic acid.

My results from my quickly assembled experiment indicated no issues with the single deep - but anything beyond that was hit or miss bigtime, even with 5 grams.

I actually saw a cloud of the OA just hanging on the bottom board - looked pretty crazy it just hovers down there and doesn't rise.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Ok. Did it work for you when you tried it on boxes with bees inside? Also did you happen to check sticky boards on the oav colonies with bees?


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## North Ohio Bee keeper (Jan 7, 2019)

Arnie said:


> This is simply not true.
> If you listen, when vaporizing a hive you will hear the bees start to hum.
> Also, as ncbees said, you will often see wisps of vapor coming out of cracks between the hive bodies and from the cover.
> 
> ...


Easyvap is good and I use the Propane Copper fogger that can fog your hive in 30 seconds.kill mites bigtime.


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## North Ohio Bee keeper (Jan 7, 2019)

Amibusiness said:


> Ok. Did it work for you when you tried it on boxes with bees inside? Also did you happen to check sticky boards on the oav colonies with bees?


heat rises in the hive and Propane is very hot so fog raises fast from OX acid


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

North, check the physics: as johno demonstrated the oav is not hot a few inches from the spout. The reason for this is that when the vapor expands outside the heated/"pressurized" pot it cools very rapidly. I'm not sure how the propane unit works but probably not that dif from electric. Additionally, the air circulates in a hive in the direction the bees want it to go, not just up. However, for oav it goes up enough to be useful. As others have pointed out, it seems to work better from the top or middle of the brood nest....


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

I have not seen much evidence of OAV going up enough to be useful. It goes up a little bit - but 90% of it stays in the bottom box.

I am highly suspicious about "bees circulate it up" into the 2nd box, most of it seems to come out the bottom.

When I close off the bottom - it just sits on the bottom board and condenses there without going up into the hive.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Are there bees in any of the boxes you experimented on? And what did sticky boards say?


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## Beejiujitsu (Oct 1, 2021)

username00101 said:


> I have not seen much evidence of OAV going up enough to be useful. It goes up a little bit - but 90% of it stays in the bottom box.
> 
> I am highly suspicious about "bees circulate it up" into the 2nd box, most of it seems to come out the bottom.
> 
> When I close off the bottom - it just sits on the bottom board and condenses there without going up into the hive.


Your experiment is incomplete, flawed, and lacking in scientific rigor.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Ok. I have a Varrox evaporator pan and used to treat from under my screened bottom board. I was advised by a very wise member of beesource that my oa was probably crystallizing on the screen, and that's why my mite drops were so low.

He suggested making a spacer with a slot for the varrox pan. I only have 2 hives now. So I had spacers made, but installing them under the hive bodies has not occurred yet. I work a lot, would disrupt the bees and I'd have to postpone treatment. There is also the matter of a robber opening that then needs plugged.

I could maybe get the spacers between my boxes and treat, since I need to pull any honey anyway. Or I could put on top, and I have a glass window I could use for a viewing screen to see what's going on as I treat. Does that sound like it would work?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

now this is how a study should be done, it indicates that one possible reason your "test" failed was an improperly designed bottom board 
https://www.uoguelph.ca/canpolin/Publications/ThompsonCody_MSc2011_edited.pdf


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

wildbranch2007 said:


> now this is how a study should be done, it indicates that one possible reason your "test" failed was an improperly designed bottom board
> https://www.uoguelph.ca/canpolin/Publications/ThompsonCody_MSc2011_edited.pdf


You just didn't know how technical beekeeping was going to become way back when you got into it did you? Try to keep up eh!


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Wildbranch, my bees flunked maths, so I just treat from higher up the stack.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Wait. Now you are saying you used a band heater, not a pan heater? You said pan heater but that does not change my position that vaping from the bottom works if done properly. Period. Ugh. J


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

I'm doing some fall OAV-ing so I thought would share some observations.

First, my backyard hives.
They are ten frame mediums, stacked 4 high.
I like that set up for ease of swarm prevention splits.

Anyway, I treat those from the bottom with the Easyvap. Used to use an inexpensive wand years ago. Never lost one of the backyard hives. 

So I vaped them today and popped the lids. There was some vapor coming out the inner cover hole Not a lot, but some. Bees were fanning after I pulled the towels blocking the entrances. 
Temperature was close to 50 degrees.

Then I went to one of the other yards. Some of these are treated from the bottom board and others from the middle. But now the temperature was 41 degrees. Kinda on the edge temp-wise.
Treated and really not much vapor at all was coming out the top on any of the hives. I'm guessing that was the temperature.

A couple observations:
One is that I put my ear to the hives before and after treatment. Before treatment there was a very faint hum. Like in winter, I had to listen carefully to hear a couple of them.
After treatment they were roaring inside the hives. On three of them, one treated from the middle and two from the bottom, the bees had created small beards when I pulled the towels from the entrances. Clearly, they got a good dose of vapor from bottom or middle.

Not many bees are in the top boxes. Mostly they are clustered in the bottom box. A few are wandering around the upper boxes.

Just for the record: my friend and I use only OAV for mites. Occasionally we have lost some hives to mites when we cannot get the treatments started early enough after the supers come off the hives. Life gets in the way. This year looks good so far. We'll see. 

Last year was tough, we lost a few. A beek I know who sells queens lost a significant number. He had trouble getting a handle on the mites. 
Sorry, I digress.


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## bricknerdn (Dec 5, 2020)

I have never lost a hive to varroa mites, but I suggest that anyone doing vaporization go back and read my comments in reply no. 41.

If you receive the American Bee Journal then you are aware of all of the research and trials Randy Oliver has made on varroa mite treatments over the years, and was the only person to obtain EPA permission to conduct trials using oxalic acid in applications outside the dribbling and vaporization methods.

What is most important is that in February 2021, Randy's article included the results of a Florida beekeeper who was using the vaporization method. That person only achieved mite control when he did a lot of vapos on 2 day intervals, not a puff here and a puff there.

Last week, Randy did a live webinar sponsored by NYbeewellness.org. In this webinar, Randy mentions the results of additonal beekeepers who also did vapo trails and none of them achieved mite control until they were doing frequent vapos. It is well worth your time to watch this webinar at the link that follows. This is probably the best 1 hour you can spend to achieve mite control.






Also check out the NYbeewellness group at [email protected]




Arnie said:


> I'm doing some fall OAV-ing so I thought would share some observations.
> 
> First, my backyard hives.
> They are ten frame mediums, stacked 4 high.
> ...


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

Why does it matter if the vapor reaches top box if the cluster is in the bottom? As long as bees get exposed to oav, does anyone care that their top box woodenware didn't get bleached? Or is this discussion about mite control during warmer months and vapor reaching everywhere then?


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## BenjaminM (Mar 10, 2020)

I can not speak to the effectiveness of the pan vaporizors, only the ProVape. In my playing around with it, there are conditions which could lead to what the original poster described.

First, did you close off the front of the hive? Normally I just side a wooden block infront of the entrance reducer to close up the hive. It's not air tight but it works. With the front wide open with no reducer, a good bit does go out the front.

Second, are you using a screen bottom board? I've seen a lot of vapor come out of the screen bottom board vs a solid bottom.

Third, you said it was an empty box. Did it have fully drawn frames?

Fourth, the bees take up a good bit of volume in the box.

Finally consider the facts that if what you said was true, even then, the bees in the bottom box are going to transfer some amount to the top box, and you could always hit the bottom box twice in a row, or more if you didn't think it was effective.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

This is probably flogging a deceased equine, but...

Using an OA vaporizer is somewhat like lighting a fire in a cookstove. You need some draft to get the smoke to go up, as smoke doesn't just do that by itself.

The available sources of draft are: 

If the air inside the hive is sufficiently warmer than the surrounding air outside, it will tend to rise due to buoyancy effects, taking the OA with it.

If the bees in the hive are attempting to ventilate the hive, they usually will move air up, since that is the way the air wants to go. That is not always the case, however. However, with all the openings plugged, their efforts, even if random, will likely eventually result in fairly uniform distribution of the air within the hive.

If there is a breeze blowing across the top of the hive, it will create a low pressure region at the top of the hive, causing air to move upward according to Bernoulli's principle.

So in an unoccupied hive on a still day, the OA vapor will not be likely to move upward through the hive, as none of these sources of draft exist. 

However, it still seems that a pan in the bottom is a plan. I actually have a compartment below a screen under the hive for my pan heater. Maybe that means I've been treatment free for two years. But I don't think so.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I was told by a Mr. Palmer that treating below my screen probably wasn't working, hence I had spacers made and treated from the top (with honey off ) once, and I've treated from the bottom above the screen once. (I do have a bunch filter floss closing the front opening of the screen area, thus closing the box. I can achieve a little ventilation at the top the next time. by removing a feed jar inside a super on top of the hive, there is a screened opening under it. I got 3 mites the first time from my double deep, and 7 going from the bottom with super still on (I pulled fall honey). I'm pretty sure she's got some capped brood in there somewhere. Deciding where to treat from next


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

username00101 said:


> Do the bees move it around?
> 
> Because the vapor did NOT leave the bottom box.
> 
> ...


Dude ,
there are "airflows" in a hive with bees, and they fan when the VAP comes in.
And the cluster is warm causing air to move up.
your stack of empty's was not a "like" experiment.


GG


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

Doesn't Randy in that video say that vapor is only marginally effective at killing mites?

It appears that vaping is a stop gap measure until the sponge or towel method is approved for use by the unwashed?



Mike has a foam hive box when the vapor hits them it sounds like a jet engine warming up. The sound is much more apparent at the foam hive, wood absorbs most of the bee noise.

NOTE: a wooden spacer is needed on a plastic hive as the hot vaporizer will melt the foam !


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Randy Oliver has always been against OAV, although in some of his first tests he did with his OAE he thought to just vape some other colonies using the same ammount of OA in vaping as he used in his shop towels. If I remember correcrtly he vaped evey 10 days until he used up the same ammount as the towels and was most surprised that this had the same effect as his towels. I did the OAE type of treatments on 4 hives and after 3 weeks did a treatment of OAV and there was a large mite fall after the OAV. In conclusion I still use OAV only and it works just fine on killing phoretic mites.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

I'm a bad beekeeper. I don't do mite counts because it bothers the bees and serves no purpose.
I have mites. I know that, and could prove it if I wanted to.
I use the OAV frying pan in a compartment below the hive with a #8 screen mesh above it. I built that compartment because I don't like fried bees and burnt frames. I start weekly treatments when it gets warm enough, and keep doing them until I put supers on. If I see crawling bees, I do a formic pro treatment while the supers are on. As soon as the supers come off, I start OAV again, and continue as long as the bees are flying. This seems to work. Before I added the formic pro, I could get in trouble in the fall if I left the supers on too long. Based on that, I conclude that either my bees are naturally resistant to mites or vaping from below is somewhat effective.
On the other hand, I only have 5 colonies in 3 hives, so what do I know?
It takes about a half hour to do 5 hives with the oxyvap, and most of it is waiting time I use to tidy up around the hives or hoe the weeds in my garden. The only thing unpleasant is wearing a P100 respirator for a half hour, but I like having lungs, too.
I'm not just a bad beekeeper, but a lazy one too. I don't bother closing the hive entrances, except I put a block of wood with a few 3/8 inch holes in it in the bottom entrance (my bottom entrance is indirect) but leave any other openings or entrances alone. Not much comes out of them anyway.


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## ncbeez (Aug 25, 2015)

johno said:


> Randy Oliver has always been against OAV, although in some of his first tests he did with his OAE he thought to just vape some other colonies using the same ammount of OA in vaping as he used in his shop towels. If I remember correcrtly he vaped evey 10 days until he used up the same ammount as the towels and was most surprised that this had the same effect as his towels. I did the OAE type of treatments on 4 hives and after 3 weeks did a treatment of OAV and there was a large mite fall after the OAV. In conclusion I still use OAV only and it works just fine on killing phoretic mites.


OAV is the only thing I have used for several years with good results also. Before OAV I used Apiguard with good results but it is a little more expensive. You can also get your bees in good shape, then they rob out a mite ridden hive later in the fall. One shot around Thanksgiving and another after Christmas takes care of that "mite bomb "situation.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

A Novice said:


> If I see crawling bees, I do a formic pro treatment while the supers are on.


Curious to see how often does that happen? One hive per year? Every now and then? 
Asking because I heard "rumors" that formic acid seems to clear up viruses in the colony too. Have not read anything scientific about, but have heard it from a few sources over the years.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

ncbeez said:


> One shot around Thanksgiving and another after Christmas takes care of that "mite bomb "situation.


How often do you find mite bombs with these end of the year treatments? I'm assuming that you do oav until you get satisfactory mite control in your hives, so just curious what's the mite drop difference between your last scheduled treatment and November/December treatments.
I'm assuming that your location has more flying days during November-February period than my hives in northern Illinois, so I could understand how later treatments might be a good idea. Locally, I hear beekeepers doing oav around the same time as you and it makes me wonder whose benefit are those for - the bees or the beekeepers?


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

With the current changes in the climate mite control can be like shooting at a fast moving target. We had some 70s last week and are due for more this week. 
Concerning mite bombs, I used to watch for weight gain in my colonies after some good flying days in Jan/Feb. This was a sure sign they were robbing at least one dead-out somewhere, whether it be in a tree or a managed hive. I probably need to watch a little closer in the fall if this trend continues.

Alex


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Interesting. If we get some warm 70F days in the early spring - there's still a few colonies down the road that didn't die from the treatment free approach. My bet is they'll be dead by March - with some free honey for the non-TF bees.


The equine is long dead, decaying at this point - might need to wash your boots off on this topic.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Marcin said:


> Curious to see how often does that happen? One hive per year? Every now and then?
> Asking because I heard "rumors" that formic acid seems to clear up viruses in the colony too. Have not read anything scientific about, but have heard it from a few sources over the years.


It happens pretty much every summer I get crawlers in July. Hard to say which hive they are from. I just assume that crawling bees means mites. I also don't do mite drop counts (I'm a lazy bad beekeeper) because there is no point. I will treat again in a week. (I try to make it 5 days, but remember the lazy part). 

Please don't think I have a good method, or that I'm an expert. I'm a bad beekeeper, my bees survive in spite of me.

I was only providing anecdotal evidence that bottom vaporizing seems to work.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

In late November most colonies in the mid Atlantic area are pretty much brood free so that 1% mite check in September October could translate to a drop of 200 to 300 mites with a good OAV treatment even without any mite bombs. Now let us guess at a 90% kill of those 200 to 300 mites and that will leave us 20 to 30 mites still in the colony, So we do another OAV on a good day in December and get another 90% of the 20 to 30 mites which if all went well will leave us with 2 to 3 mites in that colony. Now I am still not happy with that so if I can find a good day in January I will give them another treatment, not only to catch those 2 or 3 mites left behind but to give me a little insurance that my 90% efficacy may not have been anywhere near 90% but with 3 treatments I definitely will have lowered the mite population enough to get through the winter. I do no treatments in Spring, I generally check for mites in my spring manipulations by opening drone comb and looking into the larvae for mites and I have never found any yet, Late April alcohol washes produce zero mites. By early June my years flow is over and I harvest late June to July and my mite treatments with OAV will start in late July with a total of 14 to 15 treatments ending in January. Next season I am going to try something different, in late July August I will split all my colonies and move the queens and all open brood to another place and give them a couple of treatments over a week. All the capped brood will stay in the original site and will all get a queen cell and they will all get treated in about 20 days and again a week later, Once again I do not know what I will do with all my excess bees as I have problems even giving away established colonies. It appears all the save the bees guys and girls have moved on to save something else.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I quit feeding, and I didn't lose bees to a swarm in 2021, I'm pretty sure. Numbers never went down.
. This spring, I was so slammed with pond work that I think I treated with OAV in December and January (think is a heavy word, I'm pretty sure I treated under the screened bottom board once or twice) and I didn't see a significant mite drop, so JW Palmer suggested maybe I should treat higher up, like in the front door. Pond season lasted until late July, It usually ends in May. I pulled honey around the 10th of July, there was still some flow on, and we were still working. My helper is terrified of my bees, so nobody got treated right after the honey robbery. Because we have to pull equipment near the bee yard, I didn't need ornery bees. 

I gave them a jar of syrup after I put their frames back in early July, and I went back to work leaving the bees on their own. After the end of July I got on here to figure out what to do about treating bees and found out JW had died. Anyway I had these fancy spacers made to treat above the screen from the bottom, so I contact the guy in the bee club that usually helps me lift hives. And he has covid. well that took care of that. Ponds started back up, I went back to work. They didn't get treated til I treated from the top around Thanksgiving after I pulled fall honey, which was abundant. 

Amazingly enough, without much rainfall, these 2 hives had enough forage. My garden certainly didn't do all of it. Anyway, not much mite drop from the top so I went in the front door with OAV in a Varrox pan, and I got a drop of 15 mites from the one that previously had 53. I got a drop of 7 mites from the hive that had 3 treating from the top. I'm going to treat again tomorrow afternoon, probably thru the front door, and see what I get. I don't like burned bees, but I haven't had crawlers in years and I don't want them again. I did give the bees a jar of syrup after I put their fall empty frames back. I didn't steal much. 3 from the biggest hive, 2 from the smaller. Because our weather has been unseasonably warm and I think there is still some flow, the queens probably still have some brood in there. Waiting for the great hatch mite drop. So I can kill them....


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

johno said:


> It appears all the save the bees guys and girls have moved on to save something else.


HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now THAT was funny!!


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

johno said:


> It appears all the save the bees guys and girls have moved on to save something else.


Narwhales. Freakin' Narwhales and I'm up to my butt in them now, car-Narwhale accidents are through the roof in my area, they're eating my flowers and roosting in the trees.


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## ncbeez (Aug 25, 2015)

Marcin said:


> How often do you find mite bombs with these end of the year treatments? I'm assuming that you do oav until you get satisfactory mite control in your hives, so just curious what's the mite drop difference between your last scheduled treatment and November/December treatments.
> I'm assuming that your location has more flying days during November-February period than my hives in northern Illinois, so I could understand how later treatments might be a good idea. Locally, I hear beekeepers doing oav around the same time as you and it makes me wonder whose benefit are those for - the bees or the beekeepers?


Most years I have a couple of hives that have a lot of honey but get a heavy mite load by Thanksgiving . I treat all the hives at the same time. Asheville has a lot of two year bee havers (after losing all of their bees through the winter for two years in a row they are usually done). One about a mile away from me lost their 2 hives last winter and they are trying it again this winter. Another about a mile (almost the opposite direction) looks like a new start this year. Looks like 5 brand new hives. There is an empty flow hive two houses away from me. I am moving soon to the Hendersonville area. Maybe that will be a good situation. I don't know my mite count because I always treat after the honey harvest. Four days apart 6 to 8 times until I see almost no mite drop on the sticky boards.


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## thill (Nov 30, 2020)

This warm spell right now should be a good time to hit them with some OAV.
I have used the OAV cooker pan, but hate the smell of bees cooking on it, so I made a OAV injector:









I cut out the bottom of the can and siliconed it to the OAV pan, and it works. No more burnt up bees.

Maybe I'll make a separate post on this.


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## Murdock (Jun 16, 2013)

username00101 said:


> Kudos if the pan heater some folks use works. But for me, clearly it doesn't. I will have to repeat the treatment next time we get temps warm enough to do so.
> 
> Had I not experimented. I'd have felt good about my "treatment". Which didn't even get out of the bottom box.


The pan OAV needs an upper vent in the inner cover (i screen mine) so you get a chimney affect. The heat from the pan causes an updraft and the vapor rises. If you do not have some type of upper vent during treatment the vapor cannot rise very far. Cracking the top during treatment will create the updraft. THINK CHIMNEY FIRE.......


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