# TopBar hive Bars



## Hunicombs (Jan 5, 2012)

Ok so I am going to start a topbar hive this spring.

There is a lot of debate on the design of the Bars themselves as to width, height, groove no grove v shape.

I have read wax the bar I heard don't wax the bars 

What is the defining answer??? :s

I live in Utah so we get warm summers and cold winters. Which would be the best design to go with. I have access to Italiano honey bees from my local supplier but I can order a different breed from on line if they like the top bar hives better (sorry that is off topic )


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

There is no defining answer. The main justification for top bar hives is that they be easy to make with available tools and materials. They have to be strong enough to do the job. How thick is strong enough depends on how long they are - but a standard 3/4" works in most cases. They could just be sticks - which would be kind of cool if you pulled it off. 

1 3/8" wide more or less. A little less for brood, a little more for honey - but it works pretty good if the are all a nice simple 1 3/8." And then you don't have to try to convince the bees to put brood and honey where you think they should.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I've never waxed them, and it might work great - but my theory is that they know how to make wax stick to wood better than I do.


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## JRing (Jun 12, 2011)

I'm going to use a TBH this season also.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

I would mirror what David says. Some use 1 1/4 for the brood nest and 1 1/2 for the honey storage area. Some also use 1 3/8 all around. I personally made a ton of each and just kind of winged it. I would say that so far the 1 1/2 for honey storage seems nice so that bees don't cross the comb between bars. 

As far as comb guides I would not just put wax in a groove. That just doesn't work all that well. You could use sticks from a craft store that are a little larger than a popsicle stick. You could also just use anything that juts out from the top bar as well. For the Warre hives I just use whatever is laying around as scrap. Triangle guides seem to me to work the best, but are the biggest pain/most expensive to build. So that's been my experience.

I just rub a little dry wax on the guides to give the bees the idea. Not sure if it's really needed, but hey what does it hurt.

I don't think you'll find that any one bee is better suited for any single hive style than any other. I would go with whatever you deem best for your region/circumstance.


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## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

I like using 1 1/4" bars with a groove cut down the middle and tongue depressors glued in for starter strips. When the bees start building the fat honey comb I use 1/4" spacer in between the bars. I found the 1 3/8" bars were too much of a compromise and too thick for the brood area and too thin for the honey area. I tried the triangle starter and they were too expensive to buy and difficult to build. I don't feel using wax helped but it didn't hurt either. 

The best piece of advice (I think) is to make sure the bees are drawing straight comb and if they aren't correct it immediately. They aren't going to fix it and it will make for a huge mess. I learned this the hard way. Once they have good straight comb to work off they do a wonderful job of keeping it that way.

Mike


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

To add onto what Mike said, you do have to continue to monitor their comb building. It's true that once you get straight comb they generally keep them straight, but I have had issues once they start establishing the honey storage area. So just keep in mind that just because you establish a good start, it won't always stay that way.


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## wltwine (Oct 13, 2009)

I've had my top bar hive for two years now, and I built it from scratch. All my bars are 1 3/8, I cut a groove down the center the width of the table saw blade added a filler strip down the middle about a 1/4 inch tall and waxed it using a throw away chip brush and a heat gun on low to melt the wax. it has worked really well for me with no cross comb. But you know different strokes for different folks, there's a lot of great advice on this forum and a lot of options, find which one you like and build away. Wishing you much success with building your hive.


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## Daddy'sBees (Jul 1, 2010)

I make a minor adjustment to the top bars accommodating for the heat of our area. I insert a downward running 1/4" piece of wood of about 4 or 5 inches long. It is essentially making a "T" on the bottom of the top bar. This is so the comb doesn't flex or bend when examining them during our summer months.


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## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

Bush_84 said:


> To add onto what Mike said, you do have to continue to monitor their comb building. It's true that once you get straight comb they generally keep them straight, but I have had issues once they start establishing the honey storage area. So just keep in mind that just because you establish a good start, it won't always stay that way.


Good point Bush. Sometimes they put quite the curve in those honey combs that start to span multiple bars. For sure you want to keep an eye on that.

Mike


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>There is a lot of debate on the design of the Bars themselves as to width, height, groove no grove v shape.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#whichguide
http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm#guide

My favorite is the triangle, but anything but the waxed groove works ok.

>I have read wax the bar I heard don't wax the bars

They will probably survive despite you waxing them. i don't recommend it as the reason given is that it will encourage them to build on the bar. I don't find that to be true. The downside is if you dip it it isn't attached as well as the bees will do it.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm#waxguide


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## Hunicombs (Jan 5, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> >There is a lot of debate on the design of the Bars themselves as to width, height, groove no grove v shape.
> 
> My favorite is the triangle, but anything but the waxed groove works ok.


So I believe I will do the V or triangle bars as they will be fairly simple to make with just a few added cuts. 

So the next question which is not talked about too much is what angle is the v or triangle to be. If the hive walls are about 60 degrees to simulate the floor one would assume a 60 degree angle would be too steep. So I would imagine a 30 or 45 degree angle would be sufficient?


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## No-sage (Mar 14, 2009)

I make square stock on the table saw and saw them through the diagonal on my bandsaw using a jig. I guess that makes the angle 90 deg, but don't think it would matter any.

I couldn't think of an easier and safer way to saw them out.


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## lavert5 (Mar 6, 2011)

All my top bars are 1 1/2, just rip a 2x4 into pieces bout 3/4 thick. I also used the triangle pieces for guides. The bees seemed to follow well with almost no comb manipulation needed. I waxed some in the beginning, now i don't. So far I havent heard any complaints from the bees.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So the next question which is not talked about too much is what angle is the v or triangle to be. If the hive walls are about 60 degrees to simulate the floor one would assume a 60 degree angle would be too steep. 

It would not be too steep.

>So I would imagine a 30 or 45 degree angle would be sufficient? 

Yes, even 10 degrees is "sufficient."

When I first tried it (back in the 70's) my theory was based on the Greek basket hives. I assumed the reason a rounded top bar worked was the slope of the cells, so I tried to match the slope of the cells and I sloped it about 10 degrees from horizontal. It worked ok. As I experimented, read more old books and as I corresponded with Charles Martin Simon, I decided steeper worked better. A 45 degree works well (from horizontal) and is the easiest to make (just cut the corner off of a one by or buy a chamfer molding). I don't think there is any noticeable gain in going steeper.


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## Hunicombs (Jan 5, 2012)

THANKS FOR ALL OF YOUR HELP AND IDEAS CANT WAIT TILL THE SNOW IS GONE TIME TO HIT THE SHOP
:banana:


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## Luv2beekeep (Dec 11, 2011)

I am in the Great State of Idaho just north of you. I started two top bar hives last spring. They are both built from 3/4 inch pine. I made all of my top bars 1 3/8, I then ripped a groove down the middle with the table saw and then took a ritecell foundation and cut them to 3/4" strips and inserted them and stapled them in. They hang down approximately 1/2" and the bees took to them great and have so far built all straight comb and filled out 24 bars in each one. One of them I started with a 3lb package and the other I caught a huge swarm and put in. They are both doing great. Saturday the 14th it got to around 60 degrees here and the bees were going nuts. I wrapped them with colony quilt that I purchased from B & B honey. It has been awful cold here but they seem to be doing well. I hope they continue to do well through the winter, still a couple of months to go for warmer weather. We get one day of 60 and the next day of 25 for a high, CRAZY. I am still new to the beekeeping but I am having the time of my life. I ordered more packages and will be coming to Utah in April to pick them up. I hope you have as much fun building your top bar hives as I have. I have some great plans that I printed off the internet and super easy to follow. I would be happy to make a copy and send you if you would like. Just need your address. Let me know and good luck.

Dave


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## Luv2beekeep (Dec 11, 2011)

Sorry,
You can contact me at [email protected] with your address.

Dave


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## mrjackcoleman (Dec 30, 2011)

Hunicombs said:


> So I believe I will do the V or triangle bars as they will be fairly simple to make with just a few added cuts.
> 
> So the next question which is not talked about too much is what angle is the v or triangle to be. If the hive walls are about 60 degrees to simulate the floor one would assume a 60 degree angle would be too steep. So I would imagine a 30 or 45 degree angle would be sufficient?


I saw where Dave from DavesBeesVideos (YouTube) nailed a piece of cove molding to a top bar; it was easy to attach with a brad nailer and it looked great. I've attached a drawing I completed; hope you can see it. Click on the small thumbnail sized drawing below; it should open up into a larger, easy to see image.


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## mrjackcoleman (Dec 30, 2011)

I just saw some video from Kenya and Hati on TBHs and they didn't cut anything or glue anything on their bars. It was just a bar laid onto a box and the comb looked great. No wax melted on string, no "v" or triangle, no popsicle sticks or grooves cut down the middle of the bar. This doesn't mean they didn't have to manipulate comb, as I'm sure they did. I was just a little surprised, but I guess I shouldn't be as they do everything on a shoestring budget.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Some bees will take the slightest hint on where to build comb, such as wax in a groove. Most, however, will need more of a hint than that. I recommend a good distinct comb guide. At least 1/4" or more deep. The triangular ones are the strongest attachment and the best followed, but a paint stick or popscicle sticks work pretty well.


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## quevernick (Feb 22, 2011)

All of my Top bars were cut out of 2x4's and have a wedge cut as a guide which seems to work pretty well. I get 3 bars per 2x4. I have 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 bars which seems to work pretty well also. Using 2x4's meant 1 less cut on the 1 1/2 bars.


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## LaReine (Feb 9, 2012)

One other technique to consider: This spring I am going to follow the advice of a very experienced beekeeper friend and set 3/4" x about 6" strips of beeswax covered foundation in the saw kerfs of my topbars, "gluing" them in place with melted beeswax. They sell devices to precisely drip melted beeswax but I think I'll make my own. Just a metal tube. You dip it in melted beeswax to partially fill, then hold your finger over the top hole like a straw, withdraw it from the beeswax and release your finger to dispense wax into the kerf. Like we all did as kids with straws. I'll let you know how it works.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I have used a combination of 1 1/4" bars for brood and 1 1/2" bars for honey, and I have used all 1 1/4" with and without spacers. I like the combination the best. I glue and brad nail strips of molding on each bar for a guide, and I rub them with dry bees wax. Gives a hint of wax that will never come off. Melted wax breaks off easily.

One mistake to avoid is making the comb guides too long, hoping to make them "fit" perfectly inside the hive body to keep them from sliding side-to-side. This is a bad way to go, as if the sides bow at all over time (and they often do) or if you want to use a bar in a different hive and it's a tiny bit different in width - the bars don't fit. Give them a good couple of inches of space on each end of your bars. I make 18" long bars with 14" long guides, and find they work perfectly. The bees will add propolis to the edges along the walls of the box and you won't have to worry about them sliding side-to-side. I have had to go back and cut down guides on some bars because they wouldn't fit in another place or another hive.

Adam


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I was wondering if rope molding would work ok. It is fairly inexpensive and would save a lot of time for someone without a table saw. The profile is rounded and it would seem to have a decent amount of surface area for comb attachment.


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## Michiel (May 14, 2009)

shannonswyatt said:


> I was wondering if rope molding would work ok. It is fairly inexpensive and would save a lot of time for someone without a table saw. The profile is rounded and it would seem to have a decent amount of surface area for comb attachment.


It works fine for me. But I do use string (1mm), not rope. Wool srings may remain a bit too 'fussy' to my liking, so nylon or some other non 'fussy' string will be ok. Although they're doing great with wool strings here. 
I staple the strings to the top bars, and then melt some wax on it using a soldering iron. Saw it on a youtube video. Easy as can be, cheap, and works great


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

With a table saw the triangle guides are pretty simple to make. Blade to 45 degrees cut a right triangle out of 3/4 stock and than cut it in half. That makes 2 nice little triangle guides that you glue and staple to the bar.


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## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

I used the groove and tongue method that a few others have mentioned. I cut a groove the whole length of the bar, not just in the needed area, because I was lazy and just ran them through the table saw. I think the tongues I used may actually be a bit too big. I cut strips of some 3/16" thick board I had, and then glued it in. It makes for about 1/2" tongue. I think this is too big, and messes with how the bees build the comb off of it. At the top of each comb they tend to attach the comb to the bar and the tongue and it makes for an odd bulge out in the comb at top, which the bees like to connect to the adjacent comb unfortunately. 

I also had problems with cross combing right out the gate (I posted a thread about it) so obviously my guides were not very convincing. I also had covered them with copious amounts of wax. 

I'd say the simplest thing to do is just slap in some blank top bars, and check them in the first week and correct any cross combing. Either have some hair clips, or cut-out frames available in case you do have to cut and move comb. And make sure that when you do cut and move it, that you re-attach it upright. 

As a bonus, I highly recommend installing the glass window so you can look in the hive without opening it. I was able to see that my bees were cross combing, so that I didn't accidentally pull the bars apart and destroy comb. I knew I had to pull three bars all at the same time, and then carefully cut the comb loose and re-align it. 

Good luck and God bless!


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## AkDan (Apr 13, 2012)

I probably dont have much place in posting a how too...but I will post what I think is one downfall to this style of hive and a way to remedy it, correct me if I'm wrong here....its something I'd like to try out for next year. Mind you my hives are still in packages and going in tonight lol. A local bee keeper mentioned this and unfortunatly I had my bars completed already so without redoing them applying this wasnt much of an option.


FIrst my hive isnt that big (its a golden mean hive) and due to time issues, I bought bars for both my hives. Took longer to build the hives with what time I have than I planned. Feeding in a smaller hive atleast for me seems to be a pain. The follower board style I built last night hopefully will work ok. But drowning bees concerns me. 

The hive top feeders seem the be the best of both worlds. Problem with the tbh, no gaps between bars. So what the fellow I bought my bees from did, was use pan head screws and left his bars smaller in width...using the screws and a langstroth spacing tool to get the correct spacing by screwing the screws in or out on both end to get the correct gap between bars.

This allows him to use the tbh like a langstroth with the simplicity of a tbh. His hives are also set up so he can put two supers side by side on top...seems like a slick idear, though I dont honestly know how it would over winter being he doesnt over winter his tbh's. He does over winter 25 or so langstroths and atleast up here he had to make a building to over winter in due to poor success outside....

By using the gaps you can also add a host of different feeders on top, plus the supers. I dont know if you'd use a excluder or not (in his case he'd need two I would assume), I havent asked yet. I plan on making a couple more on the GM plans and stretching things out some to give this a go in a hive or two for next year. Either way it makes his gear interchangeable to a degree.

I also thought about using this method for my bars on the honey end but not on the brood chamber area for now....it would also allow me to run a hive top feeder in the mean time and keep the brood area warmer I'd think by having it completely sealed off on top. I dont have time to redo the hole hive... or really know how many bars to expect to be boord/honey. The supers he added where the deeps.

Something else I thought about in building of the bars. (I also dont like the saw kerf method...first one he picked up had the 'foundation' strip follow out along with the hole comb!). 

I'm not sure but if you cant make a V bar, or are looking for a simple way to do it.....use molding if you can find it. Either glue it to a top piece or glue to the sides with the V in the middle...when the glue drys....pin it with wood dowls to ensure it never comes apart. Most V molding has a cove on what would be the flat part you'll want to remove. if you have a belt sander turn it upside down in a vise turn it on and freehand them flat. A hand plane or saw it if you have a table/bandsaw works also Than glue it on and glue/pin it together with the wooden dowels. Seems simple atleast in my head . Its what happens when you are at work for 12 hour shifts lol.

Thoughts?


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Good idea on sanding down the cove molding. I was thinking I could use bar making as a justification for a table saw, but the reality is that I really don't need a table saw, and I could purchase bars for a lot less than a saw.


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## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

C'mon, you can't talk yourself out of a table saw so easily...I just upgraded from a crappy little table saw that I purchase at a yard sale, to a full size model for on $550. No regrets! I know it may sound like a lot of money, but you have to weigh convenience against dollar value. Besides, I'm sure the table saw is good for more than just cutting top bars.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

I was at Lowe's looking at the table saws thinking how cool it would be to have one of the nice Dewalt models. But I go years between using my Skil saw. 

My uncle retired a few years ago and put together a really nice woodworking shop. Central vacs, sanders, band saw, routing table, table saw, rotary arm saw, planner, etc. But he never does anything out there, so I was thinking I could get him to let me use some of his tools, or to help me with this project.


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## AkDan (Apr 13, 2012)

What I would do for a full size saw. I have a table top delta 10" that screams I want your fingers lol. No way to make a zero clearance and use the fence. Keeping my eyes peeled for a rigid contractor model. Pretty sweet saw with a good fence !


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

Well, based on your location, you may just want to go to Santa's workshop!


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## Keefis (May 4, 2012)

Your uncle would be stoked I'm sure. I have a woodshop and I love it when my friends and family want to come over and make something. It gives me a reason to use my tools/talent.


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## catbackr (Jun 5, 2010)

I used 1 3/8 bars with popsicle sticks glued to a groove in the middle for about 5 years. They worked ok, but frequently the bees got off center and the comb crossed bars. After reading an article by Michael Bush, I tried 1 1/4 for brood and 1 1/2 for honey with the triangle piece for a guide. That really seems to be working well for me. I started 5 "nuc" boxes this spring with 9 brood bars in each. When I transferred them to a full size hive box, all the bars were straight and nicely formed. You really need to make a jig to cut the triangle pieces but a band saw makes that a not to difficult job.


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