# How mean is mean?



## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

I have a hive that I just removed a super from. It was my first hive, and it has done well, and pretty strong.

It has also apparently superceded. A couple weeks ago, I pulled off the top and put on an empty super. I was stung three times through clothing and chased around the yard.

Yesterday I went to pull off a full super. And despite smoking, the bees were very angry, bouncing off my veil and hat. This time I was smart and wearing a beesuit, but they stung me three times in the only place I wasn't double-suited (the biceps).

I don't know if you guys would consider this mean. But it's too the point that I am considering requeening. The trouble is, I have never done that. And don't have much experience looking for queens. Not to mention I will be dealing with a mean, angry hive (4 supers), where the bottom two chambers are probably so propolized it will be a nightmare. I haven't opened up the bottom brood chamber in probably two years.

I am dreading this.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

"I am dreading this." Been there, done that, as most of us have. I suggest that is one of those things that separates the beekeepers from the bee-havers, or in other parlance, the Men from the Boys. Ya do what ya gotta do. Do it when the flow is on, use lots of smoke, duct tape, etc etc... and then realize you'll have some interesting stories to tell about the "hive from hell!" :thumbsup:
Regards,
Steven


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

One idea I have is to weaken the hive by creating a split with a new queen. Then the remaining mean hive will be smaller and easier to work with.


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## paul.h (Aug 9, 2008)

I got out of my truck around 150 feet from the bees and one got me before I had both feet on the ground. I managed to put my bee suit on and when I approached the hive I was covered with bees trying to sting. We tried to find a new queen but could not find any. The bees were very close to the neighbors and the back deck so we had to dump them.


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

Ok, you win. Mine aren't that bad.


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

When all else fails, set up an empty hive body with comb, queen excluder, then empty hive body (no frames). In the evening, go frame by frame and brush the bees off into the empy hive body above the queen excluder. Workers will go down through the queen excluder into the empy frames, most of the time the queen can't. Pinch her.

Remove queen excluder

Then take the hive body and frames with brood and honey you just brushed from and set it on top of the one you brushed into. 

requeen. 

Probably would want to reverse hive bodies a few days after everyone settles back in.


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

sifting a hot hive through an excluder might be a bit too much for someone new. easiest would be to split into 3 colonies. this calms all but the hottest. if still hot, keep splitting till you get down to 3 frame nucs. cobble some up outa plywood, or get the cheap cardboard ones from a supplier, or borrow some. get some good queens going and recombine 'em. good luck,mike


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## Parke County Queen (May 22, 2006)

Something that makes this task less daunting is to take a box off and move several feet away (preferrably in the shade). There are less mean bees to deal with this way. If you don't find her in that box, take the next one off and move away from the hive again.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

arthur said:


> I haven't opened up the bottom brood chamber in probably two years.
> 
> .


And this is how other beekeepers hives become infected with AFB. Part of being a "Beekeeper or Boxkeeper" is inpecting your brood chambers for disease. If you aren't inspecting and the hive becomes diseased then it becomes weak. Then it gets robbed out by all the neighbors bees. Then they are infected and the beekeeper that does his inspections finds the disease and then he has to deal with it. If you are going to be a beekeeper than inspect your hives!!!


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

I inspect, just not every single box.

I'm a beginning amateur. And when I open the top and see bees spilling out, and comb between the inner cover and top, I basically have one question. Is their honey to harvest? 

As far as pests, the only thing I really actively look for is SHB. I take note of how much SHB I see.

I think I am contributing better genetics (except for meanness) than the "active" beekeepers who are using chemicals, pesticides, artificial feed.


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## charmd2 (May 25, 2008)

Arthur, you arent' the only keeper who does exactly that, and don't let anyone convince you differently. 

I assume you know your hive, what is normal, and what isn't. I also expect that if you thought you had a problem you would dig in deeper. Don't let that get to you. Although, if you see to much comb between the inner cover and the top they might be plotting swarming on you. 

Mean is whatever you consider it. If three stings is three to many for you, then requeen. I would figure three stings mild on some of my hives. But they don't chase me miles either. I'll deal with a lot of aggression If the hive is building up nicely, Having no near neighbors influences that decision though.


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

If I had been wearing just a veil (and no suit) I probably would have been stung a hundred times. The bees didn't use to be this aggressive.

Also, there are good reasons not to be inspecting every box, all the time. For example, in my hive, SHB likes to hide out where the frames overlay the super. Bees propolize this, which takes away the SHB hiding spots.

If I am constantly taking the frames out, I am undoing what the bees are doing to protect themselves.

I have another hive which I inherited from my father. 3 supers. The deep and shallow (the bottom 2) both have top bars (no frames). And they are stuck together. Lifting off the shallow pulls all the top bars and comb from the bottom deep along with it, leaving an empty deep. It's hard to inspect a hive that way!!!! I would love to have better info on what is going on in that hive, but I'm afraid getting everything apart would be more destructive than it is worth.


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

mike haney said:


> sifting a hot hive through an excluder might be a bit too much for someone new. easiest would be to split into 3 colonies. this calms all but the hottest. if still hot, keep splitting till you get down to 3 frame nucs. cobble some up outa plywood, or get the cheap cardboard ones from a supplier, or borrow some. get some good queens going and recombine 'em. good luck,mike


You're right. Go with what Mike says....a dark cloud of angry bees can be a bit much for anyone, plus Mike's way is much easier


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

I would recommend next spring cleaning all of these hives out while they are light on stores. That way its not a big mess of honey and brood. Even better, move them all to clean equipment with three to five frames of old comb that has the brood and honey. Make the rest of the frames on new foundation. 

That way, you've rotated the majority of your foundation, have clean equipment, bees easy to inspect and time to really go through and clean up the old equipment to keep on hand for swams or splits.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Beeslave said:


> And this is how other beekeepers hives become infected with AFB. Part of being a "Beekeeper or Boxkeeper" is inpecting your brood chambers for disease. If you aren't inspecting and the hive becomes diseased then it becomes weak. Then it gets robbed out by all the neighbors bees. Then they are infected and the beekeeper that does his inspections finds the disease and then he has to deal with it. If you are going to be a beekeeper than inspect your hives!!!


If Arthur has a hot hive with bees boiling out all over so that he cant even get near it, why would you assume that his hive is infected with AFB?


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## victory1504 (Mar 27, 2010)

Arthur, your "inherited" hive is probably ILLEGAL as it is not inspectable. My experience is that home-grown queens produce MEAN bees ! I urge you to get into "movable frame" equipment and inspect EVERY FRAME at least twice a year. Mean bees take ALL THE FUN out of beekeeping !


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

I never said he had AFB. I was pointing out that if you keep bees you need to inspect them. That includes looking at the brood not just lifting the cover and looking at the top bars. With brood boxes in the condition he says they are it is almost impossible for him to inspect them. They need to be managed so they can be inspected. To many beekeepers don't inspect and if they did they wouldn't know what to look for and once they have a problem so do their neighbors. It's like going into an area that a previous beek had AFB and didn't control it. Now when his hives were robbed out by the feral bees they got AFB. Now that your hives are in that area your bees get infected from the feral colonies they rob out. 

As for his super hot hive-Put a plastic bag over it so the bees suffocate and start over. Trying to save it is just allowing his hot drones to mate with the virgins in the area.


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

Beeslave said:


> As for his super hot hive-Put a plastic bag over it so the bees suffocate and start over. Trying to save it is just allowing his hot drones to mate with the virgins in the area.


that would be great, except I have invested three years of work in that hive. This is their 4th season.

If you don't mess with the hive, you can approach it no problem. Once you start taking off boxes and taking out frames, different story.

How common is AFB? It doesn't seem very common in these parts.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Beeslave said:


> I never said he had AFB. I was pointing out that if you keep bees you need to inspect them. That includes looking at the brood not just lifting the cover and looking at the top bars. With brood boxes in the condition he says they are it is almost impossible for him to inspect them. They need to be managed so they can be inspected. To many beekeepers don't inspect and if they did they wouldn't know what to look for and once they have a problem so do their neighbors. It's like going into an area that a previous beek had AFB and didn't control it. Now when his hives were robbed out by the feral bees they got AFB. Now that your hives are in that area your bees get infected from the feral colonies they rob out.
> 
> As for his super hot hive-Put a plastic bag over it so the bees suffocate and start over. Trying to save it is just allowing his hot drones to mate with the virgins in the area.


You said, and I qoute "And this is how other beekeepers hives become infected with AFB........" 

While not exactly saying it, your implication is clear as a bell. A healthy hive is a haelthy hive. I find it appaling that you are suggesting suffocating the bees in question when from all apparent observations, there aint a **** thing wrong with them other than a little aggresiveness.


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

It's too bad my drones can't fly to Wisconsin. 

It's a lot of work and time to go through every box and multiple frames. My bees make a lot of propolis, and I end up having to separate frames.

I know I should check my hives more, but I am balancing a lot of other things as well--work and family.

But I know one thing is for sure--if I ever get AFH, I will be cussing under my breath at some unknown beek in my area who screwed me over because he didn't know how to maintain his hives!!!!!!!


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

arthur said:


> It's too bad my drones can't fly to Wisconsin.
> It's a lot of work and time to go through every box and multiple frames. I know I should check my hives more, but I am balancing a lot of other things as well--work and family.
> But I know one thing is for sure--if I ever get AFH, I will be cussing under my breath at some unknown beek in my area who screwed me over because he didn't know how to maintain his hives!!!!!!!


You know I rarely respond to such posts but your last post infuriated me to the point I feel I must. I notice that ALL of you supporting and in favor of ARTHURS "lack of management" techniques are all fairly new beeks with 1 year and 1 or 2 hives, or 2 winters under your belt. It seems that you ask for advice when you need it but when given advice you dont want to hear, or you dont appreciate the tone in which it was delivered you "new beeks" become aggitated, aggresive and downright snide. Each of you have less than 200 posts, most of which are probably basic beekeeping knowledge that if you INSPECTED your hives and/or used the SEARCH function on this site you would not have to ask, yet those of us with experience who offer it up free of charge based on our years of experience and management are chastised when we answer your questions without sugar coating it. 
For your information BEESLAVE is right on track, as is VICTORY, MIKE, and KB. Removeable frame hives are designed and in most states required to perform "inspections" which should be more in depth than removing the lid to see if SHB's are crawling around on top of the frames. Not opening the bottom brood chamber in 2 years is not beekeeping and is unacceptable from a hobbyist, commercial, or sideliner standpoint. AFB (not AFH) is actually very common in the US and can affect STRONG hives which will dwindle to DEAD hives and in the meantime as suggested affect not only your 2 hives, but possibly hundreds or thousands of hives within a few miles of your little hobby. In regards to MEAN bees it is common in this industry to re-queen or destroy mean hives, because again as suggested your drones are mating indescriminately with everyone else's queens and passing those aggressive genes on and on. MAYBE YOUR NEW QUEEN (you said they superceded the old queen) MATED WITH SOMEONE ELSE'S "HOT" DRONES creating your current situation or she mated with AHB drones (you are in Texas) which certainly you can understand the rest of us don't want AHB genes in our pool. Instead of wasting your time crying over the answers you recieved maybe get out, man up, and resolve the problem. Several suggestions have been made as to how to deal with it, the suggestion of "bagging" the bees and suffocating them is NOT out of line and is commonplace in beekeeping, by the way so are FULL HIVE INSPECTIONS. Keep asking your basic knowledge questions, but I might suggest to all of you DO NOT BITE THE HANDS THAT FEEDS YOU. And Arthur I see your too busy balancing such things as work and family to properly inspect your 2 hives.....well WE too are busy balancing work and family yet still manage to properly inspect our HUNDREDS of hives. Have a nice day.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

arthur said:


> It's too bad my drones can't fly to Wisconsin.
> It's a lot of work and time to go through every box and multiple frames. My bees make a lot of propolis, and I end up having to separate frames.


FYI-Plenty of bees from your area comingle with mine in the almonds and plenty come to this area(WI) for honey production.

My present hive count is 750 and I have inspected all frames with brood in them the last 3 wks. 200 hives that I made up early and mid april I inspected all frames with brood in 2 days. That's over 1,000 frames of brood. By myself!

I still had time to have supper with my wife and kids each night.

Be a responsible beekeeper not a liability.

Who cares how much time you have invested in that hot hive. Obviously it can't be much if you don't even inspect the brood frames. Bag 'em and save others from experiencing your problem.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

What catches me is this Arthur. Are you sure they requeened themselves? Maybe they haven't yet and thats why they were mean. That could be the reason in and of itself and without looking, you may never know.....just my $.02 worth. I say tape up and see if you can find out why....if they are too hot, split or deal as others have said.


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## be lote (Mar 26, 2008)

id see if i could get my county bee man from ag school in there to help you nock your hive down. tell him you think that it is a hot hive so he is prepared.
some of my hives are testy but one got down right hot. so i got myself
ready with 2 smokers taped every thang an went inside. i got it apart an in the bottom was a dead carolina wrenn - bird that will make a nest any where-.them bees couldnt be hygenic an that got em crazy. i cleaned it out stacked
it back an gave em a couple days an they were back to testy.


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

I know I need to do a better job inspecting.

But in terms of genes and such, it cuts both ways.

Here I am withe a survivor hive, one that has thrived with absolutely no treatment for 4 seasons. And the complaint is that my genes are bad? When some of you are sending your inferior genetics to me (via pollination) with bees that cannot survive without all kinds of chemicals.

It's not a trivial thing to kill bees that are mite resistant. Sure gentle and mite resistant is ideal.


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

devdog108 said:


> What catches me is this Arthur. Are you sure they requeened themselves? Maybe they haven't yet and thats why they were mean. That could be the reason in and of itself and without looking, you may never know.....just my $.02 worth. I say tape up and see if you can find out why....if they are too hot, split or deal as others have said.


I'm pretty sure. The tough thing is that the package queen had half her mark come off in a few weeks. The next time I saw the queen, no mark, but I figured it was same queen with the mark gone. I first noticed they had become a bit hotter last fall. Given that this is the 4th season for the hive, supercedure would not be unexpected or unusual.


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## Cedar Hill (Jan 27, 2009)

You might try this, which has worked well for me with a number of mean hives over 50 years. Take a lump of slumgum (debris left when most of the wax has been melted out of the old comb in the solar wax melter), about the size of a pecan or so and put it on top of whatever you use in your smoker. The smells coming from the burning cocoons and wax seem to have a demoralizing effect on the bees. When used properly they stay demoralized for a day or two. Worth a try. OMTCW


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## charmd2 (May 25, 2008)

:scratch: I didn't say I was in favor of it. I was just merely stating that he wasn't the only keeper following those tactics. I know of several around here who follow the throw the box in the yard and leave em alone tactic... He actually stated he inspected, just didn't pull frames on the bottom box.

Actually, I hoped he could tell when he needed to open the hive up for further inspection. (perhaps a nasty mean queen would qualify here) 
I actually thought beeslave's original post was a little harsh, immediately accusing afb spores were rampant in that hive. maybe both of us came off differently than we intended.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Well said, Peacekeeperapiaries! :applause:


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## Old Buzzard (Aug 7, 2004)

OK after all the hoopla over over proper inspection vs not, experienced vs newbie, finger pointing and shoulda, woulda, couldas. Let's go back to the original point.
1. I consider a hive mean when they are aggressive under optimum conditions.
a. Pretty sunshiny day,not too hot, not too cool.
b. Haven't been bother by animals, or people (kids like to throw rocks)
c. Approached from the side or back, always staying out of the flight path.
d. Honey flow on, and plenty of room to expand(I've seen the gentlest bees get cranky with no work to do,or room to do it, and a need to protect what they have.)
e. Smoked properly not too much, not too little.
f. Handled gently, without banging about etc.
g. No other environmental factors that might be upsetting their world.
2. If you are seeing lots of comb between the inner cover and the tops of the frames, they are crowded, in my opinion, but that is only my opinion.
a. Being crowded can be, in my opinion, a factor in temperament.
b. If you haven't worked the brood chambers for a while they can be crowded, but have room they are not using, they tend to work upward.
3. If it were mine and it is not, you can do what you want with your bees,in my opinion, I would do a straight up reversal on the brood chamber, throw on some supers, then give them a week to see how they act.
4. If I still felt a need to re-queen, after the week then I would do the splits method if I were too intimidated to work the whole thing, giving them another week..
a. To find the queen can seem overwhelming, I know, but it can be done, concentrate on the center of the brood nest, look for empty cells, then check for eggs, then concentrate on the queen works best for me.
b. I seem to be understanding that this hive is mite resistant, re-queening it is possibly going to remove this trait in one generation. Were it me I would assume it will.
5. Were it me after the re-queen I would at least want to check for increased mite activity.


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## victory1504 (Mar 27, 2010)

Arthur, my friend, you have a mite-free, chemical-free, genetically superior TRAIN WRECK on your hands. All these wonderful traits are WORTHLESS because they are SO MEAN you can't manage them. I BEEN THERE ! I couldn't manage them either - AND it ain't much FUN.
I have doubts that you have it in you to requeen them. I doubt that they would accept a new queen anyway. I guarantee you that they will swarm this year. Then maybe you can requeen what is left.
My experience is that bees from home-grown queens tend to be FIERCE !


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

victory1504 said:


> .
> My experience is that bees from home-grown queens tend to be FIERCE !



I have heard this a couple of times so far and a few times on BS in general. I have let mine raise 5 of their own this year and i have not experienced this...am i missing something or are we talking about this particalr hive in a general sense?


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

Michael Bush on his website suggests keeping "local" queens because they have adapted to the local conditions. Of course, he would also probably suggest selective breeding of the locally available bees.

The post below is useful as to what constitutes mean. I see video of guys wearing no gloves with no bees going after them. That's gentle in my book. I've never had bees that gentle, neither has my father.

I would like to get back to the gentleness that I had with my first queen. I think I will do the splits, since I have never done that before (with R Weaver or B Weaver queens, or maybe from one of the local sellers in Dallas). Will be a good experience.


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## brac (Sep 30, 2009)

Sounds good, then once they are more gentle, you can inspect the brood chambers a few times a year so you know what is going on in the hive.


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## victory1504 (Mar 27, 2010)

devdog, I only know my own experience. It may be because the ferrel bees in my area are just MEAN. They would be the source of drones for a home-grown queen. If things are different in your area - thats great. Almost all commercial queens are naturally mated so things must be very different where they are.


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## victory1504 (Mar 27, 2010)

Arthur, I have gone thru my hives many times with no vail ! I have had very good success with the Walter T Kelley Co. Italians. Michael Bush has had experience with Weaver queens. I will let him speak for himself.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Arthur, I've used both queens and packages from B. Weaver, and have found them to be great! Sometimes when requeening, simply getting a new queen calms a hive down. Most often though, it takes a brood cycle to do that... about 3 weeks. 
In fact, my main hive headed by a Weaver queen has produced two splits for me, threw off a swarm, and currently is 3 deeps, a medium, and a shallow tall... top shallow is empty, top deep is full of honey, and it's only the first part of May! I'm planning on buying 20 Weaver queens next year. 
Good luck.


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

victory1504 said:


> Arthur, my friend...I have doubts that you have it in you to requeen them. I doubt that they would accept a new queen anyway. I guarantee you that they will swarm this year. Then maybe you can requeen what is left.


Can I borrow your crystal ball when you are done?

:s


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## Oberlinmom (Mar 11, 2009)

New Beek here, always happy to read everyone's thoughts. I just got back from a local field day with Dr. Tew from Wooster OH. One of the the points he mentioned is the idea that as soon as something turns up in our hives like AFB "we" point the finger at some one up the road or down the street or whatever. 
The thing is, my version of his talk, the bacteria that is AFB is in our hives it's one of those things that normally stays in check in a healthy well balanced hive. When something knocks the bees awry, say an increase in varroa, then the weakened bees/hive can develop full blown AFB. It is not the fault of another hive. It's unhealthy bees. I relate it to humans getting staph infections. We carry the germs on our bodies all the time and are fine until something throws our bodies out of whack and we don't have giant blood sucking bugs attaching themselves to our skin.
Dr. Tew by the way also mentioned trying to stay out of the hives, not for years but letting the ladies do what they do with minimal disruption. Letting the bees do their thing with out "stressing" (not the best term) them keeps them healthier. He recommends varroa checks since they are our worst enemy but other wise leave them alone. Not that I can, I'm still a beginner and just have to see what's happening :lpf:


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

You know, I don't know much about AFB, since I have never seen it, and I don't recall my father's bees ever having them either in the many years he has kept bees. 

But as I have been reading about it just in the last day or so, I started to get a a little paranoid. I put out my cappings for the bees to recycle. And I am seeing hundreds of bees, some of them likely mine, some of them likely from elsewhere, thinking about whether the co-mingling could lead to something bad.

It sounds like if AFB could spread like wildfire if it were very virulent. It sounds like it is not.

I've been hearing about mites for so many years now. And now SHB. It's like AFB is the odd-man out.

I do know a hobbyist who kept 20+ hives and was wiped out, I think, by AFB, many years ago. I think it was AFB because he ended up burning his woodware.

The commercial guys run their bees much harder, and big losses are common. Weak hives abound. I'm sure it is always tempting to blame others. Look at all the terrible things that have happened with bees, the spread of pathogens worldwide. Who is responsible? Hobbyists who don't know what they are doing, or commercial beekeepers with years and years of experience running hundreds and thousands of hives?

I think we all know the answer to that one.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Well Arthur, it could be both. That's why it is critical to observe, inspect, and react when neccassary! And for your remark on who would be to blame- It's those who don't inspect or don't know what they are looking at when they see a problem that are at the top of the list!


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

I would most certainly trust a commercial beek with 10,000 hives before I'd trust a hobby beek with 1-20 hives! The commercial beek has to inspect his hives. He has to keep them healthy. That's his livelilhood. Yes, he assumes additional risk with transport and pollination in different locales. And perhaps because of this he loses more hives percentage-wise than stationary folks like me. 

But a commercial beek is not going to tolerate diseased hives! He could be wiped out! Lose his livelihood! The odds are, if he has a hive come up with AFB for instance, during one of his migrations, his bees picked it up from some unmanaged, ignored colony somewhere.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

arthur said:


> ...
> However, there has been nothing scientific about the advice...


Actually it is. You must understand. The advice is the science.

Actually I would suggest examining the brood. I was wondering how you control swarms if your not examining the brood? I agree that you shouldn't over-examine (whatever that is). Currently my opinion (yes I am another 2yr expert) is leave them alone as much as possible but do what must be done to keep them "your" bees.


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## Sam-Smith (Jul 26, 2009)

Aside from all the issues that arise from not inspecting imho at least once a year that comb has to be getting pretty dark, I know queens wont lay eggs in it once the comb gets dark enough, this could be causing some crowding issues, also I have read some informal research that verroa like dark old comb more then new natural size comb.. Never worked a hive that mean before though, spliting sounds like a good idea let the new hives make new queens then pick the nicest one and combine again?


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

beekeeping is not a science so much as it is an art. there is no "do x,then in y# of days, do z and the result must be..." they are living creatures with diverse dna and in diverse climates and conditions. add to this the alien pests introduced in the last decade, and about the only thing reasonably certain is lack of what is considered to be "proper care" will have poor results. good luck,mike


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## mike haney (Feb 9, 2007)

"science" has been brought to bear by excellent scientists in some of the best laboratories and schools in the world and been found lacking. i stand by my statement- its not so much science as it is an art. good day,mike


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Perhaps beekeeping is an art in the way that while we beeks bring the best scientific principles to our craft (principles that others have established, and we have sought to learn as practicioners of the craft of beekeeping - I make no claim to be a scientist, but I read and learn, to try to improve my beekeeping), and try to be methodical and conscientious about our beekeeping, we are still subject to the vagaries of weather, the forage accessible to our bees and how that forage behaves in any given season, and the inclinations of the honeybee, which is an insect. And the bees have their ways of doing things, after all.

So beekeeping is both art and science, but in practice, mainly an art. If it was pure science, you could write a manual, and every spring follow it step by step and harvest 200 pounds of honey per colony. Yeah, don't I wish! 
Regards,
Steven


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

I spoke to my father about AFB. He has kept bees for 17 years or so. He has never had foul brood, nor has he personally known any beekeeper with AFB.

I don't know if this kind of experience is just the exception.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

So Aurthur, what are you going to do? Did you ever try to find your queen?


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

No, haven't had a chance to get to that hive yet. 

I think I will start by doing a split with a Weaver queen. But I need to get a bottom board, lid, etc.

Last time I was at the hive, I saw a few ants (pharaoh?). I added water to my hivestand leg "moats". Maybe those ants had riled up the bees (wishful thinking).

It's probably going to be a month before I can do something definitive.


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

Beeslave, do you have a thread where you describe the disaster that you alluded to in your operation?

I would like to learn from your situation.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Beeslave said:


> And this is how other beekeepers hives become infected with AFB.


And this is how other beekeepers hives CAN become infected with whatever. It's not a given. There are other ways to tell if problems exist in the hive without inspecting every frame, or any frames for that matter. The point is, Arthur needs to do what it takes to get in the brood chambers and deal with the aggressiveness of his bees one way or another. Either buck up, or requeen.


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

Old Buzzard said:


> OK after all the hoopla over over proper inspection vs not, experienced vs newbie, finger pointing and shoulda, woulda, couldas. Let's go back to the original point.
> 1. I consider a hive mean when they are aggressive under optimum conditions.
> a. Pretty sunshiny day,not too hot, not too cool.
> b. Haven't been bother by animals, or people (kids like to throw rocks)
> ...


Today:
A. Late evening, hive in deep shade, so darker than I would have liked. Overcast cloudy day.
B. Next to creek, could be animals, who knows.
C. check
D. Pretty full, lots of bees on outside of hive. One full super. One super on its way.
E. I would like to think smoked properly, but that's a matter of judgment and experience.
F. As gentle as I could.
G. Saw carpenter ants huddled together on the inner cover, for the first time.

This was a hive that I had decided was nicer than my other hive (the original one of this thread). But boy were they angry this evening. I wanted to get some empty comb (that I had just extracted) back onto the hive. I knew it wasn't ideal conditions, but what the hey.

I tried using my leaf blower to get bees out of the super. That didn't work well. Resorted to the tried and true bee brush.

This is a hive that was my father's and originated from a swarm or cutout. Another 4 supered big hive that has produced 2 (and a half--it has finished drawing out another medium from foundation) medium supers of honey so far this season. Never had chemical treatments.

Another hive that is in the grey area. Not too bad on a good day. Not very good at all on a bad day. But a particularly good producer. And superior mite-resistance.


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## MikeJ (Jan 1, 2009)

Wow so many "off topics". Wouldn't know other threads are allowed to continue.
Anyway...

Arthur - I am not really sure what you were asking for in your original post.
It got taken over by everyone telling you how to be a keeper. 

But I thought it rather an interesting idea that bee keeper's hives get infected because other bee keepers do not inspect their hives "like they should". I would imagine most bee keeper's have sick hives because they have sick hives. Why pass the blame to another person? 
I can understand getting a little upset if my bees rob out another keeper's and get sick - but then I can also understand another keeper a little upset my bees are robbing (would that make me a bad keeper - shouldn't I stop them from robbing).

Besides I thought we were always told that sick hives die out, they don't grow so large as to pack 3 or 4 chambers and still swarm.

Pesonally I wouldn't mind having that hive. I would probably make tons of splits but that is me.


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## emptyenergy (Mar 30, 2010)

Being new to all of this, I don't have a whole lot of experience. My first thoughts about the the hive being mean and Arthur being from TX was AHB. I also thought, "Ugh...what a mess. Everything's stuck together and they're ticked!" I guess I'll just take this as a lesson I don't have to experience on my own to learn from." Good luck with whatever solution you go with, Arthur.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Arthur-I am available at 715-797-5984. I can discuss your questions there because computer text doesn't always cut it. This maybe deleted for off topic but I am here to help if I can!!! Rain for the next 2 days in the forecast so I will be available.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Barry said:


> And this is how other beekeepers hives CAN become infected with whatever. It's not a given. There are other ways to tell if problems exist in the hive without inspecting every frame, or any frames for that matter. .


So Barry, tell us how you can tell a hive has a brood infection without inspecting the brood! I know this thread isn't about brood infection but so many beeks place bees in a hive and never inspect. I've seen hives with supers full of honey, yet when I did the brood comb inspection I found they were infected.


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## Show-me (Aug 3, 2007)

paul.h said:


> I got out of my truck around 150 feet from the bees and one got me before I had both feet on the ground. I managed to put my bee suit on and when I approached the hive I was covered with bees trying to sting. We tried to find a new queen but could not find any. The bees were very close to the neighbors and the back deck so we had to dump them.


I almost want some, bet they make honey like crazy.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Beeslave said:


> So Barry, tell us how you can tell a hive has a brood infection without inspecting the brood!


Exiting bees (visual) and smell come to mind.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I know this thread has gone all over the place, but I think Arthur just answered his own question as to why he encountered a "hot" hive........



> A. *Late evening*, hive in deep shade, so darker than I would have liked. Overcast cloudy day.


:doh:

*AND*



> I wanted to get some empty comb (that I had just extracted) back onto the hive. I knew it wasn't ideal conditions, but what the hey.


:doh:

*AND*



> I tried using my *leaf blower *to get bees out of the super.


:doh::doh:


*Did anyone else catch this, or are we too focused on blaming people for diseased hives?*


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## Wyldbee (Feb 27, 2010)

arthur said:


> Today:
> 
> 
> I tried using my leaf blower to get bees out of the super. That didn't work well. Resorted to the tried and true bee brush.


A leaf blower? Surely you jest!!


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I have found, that in order for the bee blower to work, you need to remove the super from the hive and place it on a stand infront of the hive. The stand should be the same dimenssions of the super and about 18-20" above ground so you do not bend so much. As well the legs of the stand should be enclosed with the back wall on an angle so when you blow the bees, the bees are blown towards the entrance. My experience has shown that the stand should be lined with tin. Wood they can crawl back up, and fast, and tin is a little more slippery. When you are blowing the bees out, stand at the side of the super you are working on.

If i get time, and if the stand is stored on the yard, I will take a pic of it and post it

When you just want to push bees down a bit a good dose of smoke is helpful. Remember cool smoke not hot.

Finally, when working a hive in the evening especially when the day has been cloudy is asking for trouble. 
One reason bees get sick is from stress. Stress can be induced by entering the hive at wrong times...Weather is also a stressor for the hive. When they can not fly or forage, they get a bit cranky. So when you enter a hive, take into account the stresses on the hive at that time. Sometimes, we have no choice but to enter a hive when cloudy and in the evening...but most times...
...when there is no choice but to enter a hive on a cloudy day or in the evening, give them a few puffs of smoke at the top enterance and at the bottom. Wait 5 minutes and when you pull off the lid, puff a couple of times again.

Oh yes, just so you know and this is from experience (hubby's experience) and reading as well....bees have a three day memory. So if you ticked them off today...they will not be so kind to you for three days. And they will be able to tell you apart from someone else....Just experience talking here.


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

Wyldbee said:


> A leaf blower? Surely you jest!!


Is it so ridiculous?

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221558&highlight=leaf+blower

My father would use one from time to time.

Bee-specific air blowers are used all the time. As are apparently adapted versions.


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

honeyshack said:


> I have found, that in order for the bee blower to work, you need to remove the super from the hive and place it on a stand infront of the hive. The stand should be the same dimenssions of the super and about 18-20" above ground so you do not bend so much. As well the legs of the stand should be enclosed with the back wall on an angle so when you blow the bees, the bees are blown towards the entrance. My experience has shown that the stand should be lined with tin. Wood they can crawl back up, and fast, and tin is a little more slippery. When you are blowing the bees out, stand at the side of the super you are working on.
> 
> If i get time, and if the stand is stored on the yard, I will take a pic of it and post it


Yeah, I did it all wrong. Got some bees off, but not enough. So resorted to transferring frames to a different super, using bee brush.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

arthur said:


> Is it so ridiculous?


Only when used late in the evening on a cloudy day in the general vicinity of other suspected hot hives.


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

it was not in the vicinity of other known hot hives.

I had set out wax cappings with residual honey on the deck. My father says I probably should not have done that. That it can make the bees become more aggressive, a kind of robbing frenzy.

Sometimes you just got to get things done. I didn't do anything on Monday because of less than ideal conditions. Yesterday was better, went for it. Didn't want to wait til Sat. to deal with crowding issues.

You pays your money, you makes your bets.


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## Wyldbee (Feb 27, 2010)

Sorry Arthur.
I just thought it would be the last tactic to do with angry bees since you were trying to figure out how to calm them down and make them more manageable. 
I should have kept my fingers silent.

Good luck. 

Out


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

arthur said:


> I had set out wax cappings with residual honey on the deck. My father says I probably should not have done that. That it can make the bees become more aggressive, a kind of robbing frenzy.
> 
> Sometimes you just got to get things done. .



And there inlies one of the big reasons the bees were hot

So far you have

1. poor weather
2. cloudy day
3. entered in the evening
4 robbing frenzy

Yes there are times when you just got to get things done, but then you need to pay the price as well...what were those words my momma said...."suck it up"


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

Wyldbee said:


> Sorry Arthur.
> I just thought it would be the last tactic to do with angry bees since you were trying to figure out how to calm them down and make them more manageable.
> I should have kept my fingers silent.
> 
> ...


that's cool. my goal was to get the bees out of the super as fast as possible so I could get out of dodge. The blower didn't work to that end for me, as I had hoped.


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## victory1504 (Mar 27, 2010)

Bees that "come to meet you" are TOO MEAN ! I hope we can all agree on that criteria. You should be able to walk among your hives without an unprovoked attack.

Robbing makes bees MEAN - like REAL MEAN ! I cannot think of a better way to make the bees IMPOSSIBLE than to set cappings or comb out for them to rob-out. My experience is that "once a robber-always a robber". Robbers WILL attack without provocation, long after the cappings are robbed out.

The remedy for mean bees is to requeen with a KNOWN, GENTLE queen. Years ago I tried raising my own queens. They were predictably MEAN just like the swarm and supersedure queens. My conclusion is that the ( ferrule ) drone stock in my area is FIERCE.

I have had bees like Arthur's ! You move your hand toward them and fifteen of them hit you like a 45 slug ! They crawl all over you until they find a hole, or seam, or crack. They always seem to find one. They are a menace that must be dealt with ! ! !

My experience was years ago, before the Africans were around. I can't help wonder how they compare with the AHB ? Have any of you dealt with the AHB ?


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

I blame this forum for my setting out cappings. People here had said they did it.

I don't think I will do it again.


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## lstclair (Mar 6, 2007)

Arthur, I was in a similar situation last year, except that the hive had been inspected recently, and probably requeened itself within a couple of months. It was also a survivor, and a great honey maker in a rainy, cool year when other beeks were complaining of no honey. 

I have kept bees for 5 years. I'm a woman with a (last year) one year old toddler. I could not have a hot hive on my property, even one that was "only" hot when I opened it (but would go after anyone within 30 yards for the rest of the day). My husband is not a beek, but likes my bees and I wanted to keep it that way.

I called a former inspector who has decades of experience. We decided on a plan: pull the two supers of honey. If losing their honey didn't calm them down, split them; or kill them.

Losing their honey did not calm them. I suited up like an astronaut and split them three ways. A week or two later, I went looking for eggs to figure out where the queen was (the hive was so chock-a-block bees I could never have found her otherwise). I bought two queens, squished the old one, and requeened the two larger splits. The third was a nuc, and I recombined them with their sisters. Even the nuc was hot! Those bees never gave up. They had attitude to spare. Apparently, watching me make the split was quite... interesting, as I had a cloud of angry bees around me the whole time. I wore a suit, with boots and gloves, and don't recall that I was stung (or at least not more than once or twice).

By this time, it was late in the season, and though one had plenty of stores, neither made it through the winter. One got too far from their stores, and the other probably had too little (but I was just done with them by September, and didn't feed). I could have saved money and trouble with a plastic bag, but this is a hobby, and I learned a great deal from the experience of doing the split, finding the queen, and requeening. 

My advice, as a 5-year-beek: don't let the brood nest get too gummed up. I gave birth at the end of June 2008, so I know what it is to be too busy for a bit to look after your girls, but digging out a propolized brood nest with 40,000 angry bees swirling around you is not a hobby. It's masochism. Split them, requeen them, or bag them.


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## Parke County Queen (May 22, 2006)

victory1504 said:


> Bees that "come to meet you" are TOO MEAN ! I hope we can all agree on that criteria. You should be able to walk among your hives without an unprovoked attack.
> 
> Robbing makes bees MEAN - like REAL MEAN ! I cannot think of a better way to make the bees IMPOSSIBLE than to set cappings or comb out for them to rob-out. My experience is that "once a robber-always a robber". Robbers WILL attack without provocation, long after the cappings are robbed out.
> 
> ...


Yikes! I have been setting out some comb with honey in it. I will put it away tonight. In the past I have put combs of honey on top of the inner cover and put another super on top of it. I feel dumb, but I'm glad I read this.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

There is a big difference between setting out comb or cappings in the yard as an open invitation to any and all bees to come clean them up. Robbing gets started, and comb gets damaged.

However, setting wet comb or capping above an inner cover, with an empty super around them, all cracks sealed, and the outer cover on, limits access to those bees in the hive. Many beeks, after harvesting their honey, return supers of wet frames to the hives in this manner. The bees remove the unextracted honey,and store it.

Others, myself included, prefer to store those wet combs in their supers, protected from wax moth and other critters. Then we'll give the supers to the bees at the beginning of next year's season. The fact that they're wet tends to draw the bees up into them and they work them sooner.

But, as you've discovered, ask 3-4 beeks a question, gete 7-8 answers.
Regards,
Steven


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## Cactii (Sep 5, 2009)

arthur said:


> No, haven't had a chance to get to that hive yet.
> 
> I think I will start by doing a split with a Weaver queen. But I need to get a bottom board, lid, etc.
> 
> ...


I get these pharaoh ants too. They seem to go for the wax rather than the honey. If the hive is strong enough the bees seem to be able to keep them in check.


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