# Small scale indoor wintering. Is anyone doing it?



## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

The discussion in the commercial forum about indoor wintering has piqued my curiosity, and I have been reading up a little on indoor wintering on a smaller scale. In this article http://organicroots.nal.usda.gov/dow...RC00000278/PDF the author says that good results happen when the bees are kept in an area below the frost line and in the 50's. 
An economic reason given was that it took less feed. I am curious to know if there are any smaller operators in the north who winter hobbyist to sideliner numbers of colonies inside and how they do it. 
Given the current weather I would be happier if I had my eggs in more than one basket. It is a very cold basket.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Seriously pondering it. Only reason I haven't yet was trying to calculate the cooler size and I think I have that figured out. One other down side learned is that they don't do brood in storage, so timing them out is going to be important or they will be behind.


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## S.M.N.Bee (Aug 9, 2011)

How many hives do you keep? I have given this some thought as well but only keep a couple of hives. Even a small building would be too large for two to four colonies.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I first started experimenting with indoor wintering with a small 10 by 10 insulated room. I kept 25 small late swarms inside that year very successfully. This idea is nothing new but for me to understand how to manage the room environment is something you need to actually see for it all to make sense. 
All the same principles apply to the wintering room regardless the size of the building or number of hives. I highly recommend this tequneque but I would suggest you to try trials help figure out all your requirements. 
Most of which is keeping the room consistently cool.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Do a search here on beesource, I have gathered a lot of info from a beekeeper called Wrangler who use to manage bees in Alaska,
I have been wintering indoors for about 5 years, experimenting with it 3 or 4 years before that


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## Rxmaker (Jul 6, 2011)

How small scale? I kept 2 small hives last year and 1 this year in my insulated and unheated shop. A couple of weeks ago when it was -30 outside it was mid 20s inside. Nothing special as they are just sitting on a bench. Screened front and top entrances and granulated sugar and protein patty on the top bars. When I warm the shop up to work they get warmed. Whole lot better than letting freeze out side here. They are a little behind the others in the spring. The Nov or Dec Bee Journal has an article about a guy over the pass from us in Livingston who winters his til almonds. Waaaaaaaaaaay more than me. Also there is a guy in southern AB. I think it can be done on any scale and budget. Know just what you face there as I grew up in St Paul and mom lives in Hudson.


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## Wisnewbee (Apr 8, 2011)

The book "The Hive and the Honey Bee" has a very good section on indoor wintering. There was a great deal of research done in Manatoba on the subject. It boils down to a consistent temp (around 40 F), dark (no light at all), and good air circulation.

We are working toward doing indoor wintering in our operation. We're currently looking for a building we can grow into.

Wisnewbee
Honey Luv Farm


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## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

I do it with one hive. Observation hive in Virginia. I keep it in my garage, it's warmer than outside, but not 70 degrees. They get light and warmth. The main issue is not running out of honey stores because I can see that, and can feed whenever as I have an integrated feeder. In the past, I had an observation hive dwindle to nothing because the hive ran out of pollen. 

The risk of keeping hives warmer is the queen will try to keep laying. You don't want to pack them in such a way that the hive in the center is warm enough to keep production up. 

There have been hives placed in a deep freeze that last. The cold is not the enemy, the winter stores are. Your best hibernation option is that one that was reference above. You start in the fall, drop them into ~40 degrees and absolute dark, then wake them up again in the spring. 

Rob.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Having read all of the old beekeeping books where they were cellaring bees (Doolittle, Miller, Pellet etc.) it is tempting to try it. But it's really only appealing to me for nucs. Too much work to move all those hives in and back out. I possess (and have read) the entire 1886 ABJ and there is much information on cellaring bees (it was the accepted norm at the time). Maybe one of these days I'll do the "potato" cellar method (a trench with a tarp and straw over it). I wonder what kind of permit I have to have to do that... they just made me get a permit to put up a giant tent for a barn... If I had the trench maybe it would be adequate to have a drainage ditch for rain and then in the spring just remove the roof (tarp and straw) and let them free fly until I move the nucs or sell them.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I would only indoor winter in a shed, and would only winter nucs as MB said, just much easier to move them in and out than full sized hives. If you are going to go through the trouble of making lots of nucs, you want to do all you can to get them through the winter as they are the ones that really need the help with the cold and wind. Certainly full size hives might benefit from indoor wintering too, just more work with those.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I have 39 colonies chugging along outside, I just came in from snowblowing, I think the bees would benefit from the more consistent temps that can be attained in a shelter of some sort. I am thinking that next year I may try to winter a dozen or so late splits in my shed by temporarily partitioning off part of it to keep it dark. I like the idea of spreading risk. 
I wonder if the lack of brood is such a bad thing? A brood break is a real benefit for mite control. 

Also, I am interested in the variable of bees "heating" versus bees just hanging out. It seems that the older school of thought when cellaring bees was almost that you would attempt to titrate the heat of the cellar to the sound of the bees - the theory being that quiet bees were bees just hanging out, and not having to engage in calorie burning heating activity. Modern indoor wintering seems comfortable with allowing the bees to heat their cluster to what they want to and worry more about ventilation. I wonder if there is a benefit to the bees in not having to heat their cluster? Would they live longer if they have done less work? 
Modern technology allows more monitoring of the environment and more control of ventilation then ever before. It is interesting to read how it was done in the old days just with an adapted root cellar and a couple of pipes. If I could convince the wife to allow me to move one of the kids out of her basement bedroom I would like to try a comparison between a "cellar" and my outside shed. If I had an earth mover I would like to excavate below the frost line and try a version of structure that I linked to, but that doesn't seem very feasible. I am more likely to continue to adapt my shed, as it is so much cheaper to use what you have rather than build something new. 

Peter, I appreciate the post. I work in St. Paul. Yours is an example of what I was looking for - an example of someone who is trying something different.

Ian, I appreciate the tip about "Wrangler" I will do a search on his posts. I am also going to read the "Gleanings in Bee Culture" archives, and see what I can find in there. I am enjoying your thread.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Thanks for the clues to the additional references, this is a long cold winter, and I appreciate the opportunity to learn some new old stuff.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

There have been numerous studies done on the correct temp for wintering. right at 40 seems to be the consensus. Thats based on energy consumption and longevity. seems if its warmer they have problems with dysentary, colder uses to much food.

What I am wondering is if you can bring up the temp to say 50 2 weeks before to get brood started?? Looking real hard at some of the european "bee houses" what if the hives faced out, or could get out, and were heated on 3 sides. Wold it be easier/ cost effective for 100 nucs that way??


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Adrian, this kind of stuff is what makes this business interesting! Building a management technique to suit your climate and work requirements. 

When I first started with my indoor wintering endeavour I felt very intimidated by all the unknowns. These can only be understood with experience. Just keep in mind, as long as you keep it dark, keep your air exchange adequate and keep the temp down those bees will winter just fine. 
The length of time your wintering period will be is determined by how soon your area provides temperatures where as the bees can fly. Coolers are probably going to help bridge those mild breaks. We don't have mild breaks here. And in most cases keeping that shed temp down will be your limiting factor,

So then you have to ask yourself, would they be better off wintered outside? Many Beekeepers here winter outdoors just for that very reason.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I always thought that the more active the bees are in the winter, the more food they would consume, which would offset the consumption of food for heating, so they consume stores either way. How important then are winter cleansing flights to successful wintering, or do they really even need to have a cleansing flight if they are in a shed for 4 months, then taken out and allowed to fly in the spring?


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## Dav (Jul 9, 2012)

Quote from Peter: "Screened front and top entrances and granulated sugar and protein patty on the top bars. When I warm the shop up to work they get warmed."

I am in my third winter (St. Paul MN) of wintering full hives and nucs in either my attached garage (unheated but insulated) and unheated shed. Goal is to have viable replacements for deadouts in the spring.

I like your concept of periodic heating to allow cluster repositioning on stores, but haven't found in reading how long a warm up would be needed, how warm to allow, and how frequent. As you describe, I screen the hives in, so wish to warm to a level that allows cluster movement without raising the urge for cleansing flights.

Anyone found good reading on the topic of warming for reclustering but shy of cleansing urge?

David


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Howdy Adrian.
I live next door in MN and have been considering the same thing myself..
With the price of package bees in the spring it would be wise to overwinter
the bees if possible...here is a link to the Bush web site 
http://bushfarms.com/beesnucs.htm
where he makes kind of a bee hive sandwich of plywood and styrofoam 
that I wanted to try tthis winter, but sadly, had to work out of town and
didn't have time to build...and now I'm down to one unprotected hive that
is surviving so far, even with -30 F...giving pollen patties and home made
sugar candy...ABC & XYZ of bee culture, first edition in 1877 to current
2013 editions have info on old school passive wintering methods, which
might be of intrest....This is a great topic that i will watch with intrest
thanks..
==McBee7==


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Dav, how many do you have inside? I have read in a couple of places that allowing them a dark place and an unscreened entrance allows them to push out the dead and thus keeps a cleaner hive. What have you noticed? 
Gm, this guy uses a reptile heater to warm very small nucs. http://mbbeekeeping.com/wintering-2-frame-nucs-in-manitoba/ This seems like a variant of the potato trench method MB refers to. I understood it to be light that was the trigger for brood-rearing. Were you thinking that the heat would allow for a larger brood rearing cluster, or were you thinking of heat as the trigger?
Ian, I understand. Except for 2011, the winter that wasn't, we seldom get a cleansing flight day December, January, and February. 
JMGI, I understood it a little differently. There is supposed to be some optimal temperature in which bees, when kept in the dark, are quiet and almost hibernating and barely using any energy at all not even for warming the cluster. If you have a cellar below a house that is not in use I could see how that space might be at a temp that is closer to 50 than 40.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

McBee7. It is very cold up there. MB's site is an inspiration. I have had some success with overwintering nucs clustering them together and adding insulation. This is my standard set-up.
http://s1110.photobucket.com/user/A...000D054EB6007_zpsc27254ac.jpg.html?sort=6&o=9
Your winters are much colder than mine, I could see a great deal to gain for beekeepers in your area by looking at indoors.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Good point Dav about repositioning of the cluster to the food stores.
I hadn't considered that...I can say that I checked out my surviving 
hive on monday the 23 and it was -7F at the time, and when I opened
the top of the hive to check on patties ,there was no activity in the top
of the box and I quickly covered it up, but when I opened it up a 
second time to put in a sugar pattie the bees had come up to the
top of the box and were feeding, they had obviously broken the cluster.
So they could have repositioned the cluster after feeding to some of
the frames that did have stores on them...They obviously didn't come
to the top because of the added warmth, they came up because there
was a disturbance to the hive..I might add that I have added a 15 watt
"nite lite" heater section bottom board under the hive, so the bees may
be lower in the hive because there is heat comming up from the bottom.
There is a tin cover on the heater to eleminate light and to disapate the
heat evenly...
==McBee7==


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## Dav (Jul 9, 2012)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Dav, how many do you have inside? I have read in a couple of places that allowing them a dark place and an unscreened entrance allows them to push out the dead and thus keeps a cleaner hive. What have you noticed?


I have three nucs this year. All are five over fives. 

Dual use of the spaces makes light trapping difficult and for me the screening necessary. Pushing out the dead? There are dead to be sure, the inescapable mortality of the winter months and the screening keeps them inside, much as they would be in a hive left outdoors. While the bees are clustered, they are so because of cold which makes the bottom board a refrigerated morgue at least until spring. Holding a concern for convection-based ventilation, I will on occasion blow the dead back from the lower entrance screen, big bad wolf style.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Thanks for the reply. I like the big bad wolf comment.


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## Dav (Jul 9, 2012)

For what it's worth, here are some photos of shed and garage based indoor hive wintering in the frozen north.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Clever, I like the way you have made an exit without damaging the shed.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Adrian, I agree with you about there being an optimal temperature which is economical as far a using food reserves, and at the same time keeps the bees clustered up and relatively quiet.


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## don wiggins (Mar 4, 2013)

This isn't small scale and it may be information that all of you already know but to a first year guy I found it interesting.
http://www.king5.com/news/environment/Bees-winter-better-in-cold-storage-180454391.html
Don Wiggins


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## pomicultorul (Mar 8, 2012)

Greetings everyone, how about this scenario:
(I guess the idea was already brought up while I was writing; anyhow, here it comes.)
Build a dedicated space where the hives would be placed against the wall with the entrance free to the outside environment. There will be no need to monitor the CO2 and humidity levels, just the temperature and I suspect that more cooling than heating will be necessary to keep the optimum temperature (40F/5C). With the right design and an optimal number of hives I think that the construction costs could be recouped in a decent period of time. I submit bellow some of the perceived benefits of this setup:
1.	Wintering nucs and eliminating weather related loses for regular hives.
2.	Feeding savings all year round
3.	Less bee wear - hence less pressure for cleansing flights
4.	Eliminate the need to winterize hives or deal with snow and grass
5.	Superior pest control and the possibility to more easily automate feeding/entrance blocking, etc. 
6.	Extends equipment life and lowers costs (no painting, roof panels, etc.)
7.	Provides cheap storage space and access on wheels to equipment (easy extraction, etc)
8.	More comfortable working environment, eliminate robbing while working the hives, etc. 
There are some variables (especially if one considers getting an early start by manipulating temperature – after spring cleansing flights and in conjunction with providing the bees with food, water and pollen/pollen substitutes) but I am quite sold on the idea and would appreciate any constructive criticism you can provide. Thank you very much.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Pretty much Ian has given you everything you need for information. Lack of heat is a non-issue wintering bees indoors. Too much heat will be the problem. I would recommend that you install a high temperature switch attached to a fan. The same fan must cycle on and off a couple times a day to keep carbon dioxide from building to a toxic level in the building. Absolutely no light whatsoever, anywhere, not even a crack. 

This document is really old but explains it well: http://capabees.org/content/uploads/2013/02/indoorwinteringhighlights.pdf

There is a modern version of this document somewhere on the net but I cannot find it. Singles must be heavier than 75lbs as well. Other than that humidity is the only challenge and I am not sure what the correct answer is. 

Last year was a really tough year (early winter, late spring) and we managed to bring 38 hives through for 100% survival. They were in from beginning of October to first week of April. Yes, after 6 months they really need a cleansing flight. So make sure you keep them away from the good linen.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

JoadieToadie, I love that name. Welcome to Beesource. Anyway, how do you manage to keep the hives in the dark, but fan air in without admitting light? Ian mentioned a light-box, but I have no idea what one looks like, and a google-image search was of no help.
38/38 is fantastic. Were they eating their own honey, sugar syrup, corn syrup ?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>have no idea what one looks like, and a google-image search was of no help.<<

Take a look on my website found on the bottom of my post signature. Find my indoor wintering catagory, I have a few light trap pics as I installed them . Very simple design


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Thanks, I'm going there now. For the other curious folks this is Ian's place.
http://www.stepplerfarms.com/StepplerHoney.html


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

OK Ian, I'm starting to feel as stupid as when I ask my wife where my keys are. I clicked on Categories and didn't see "indoor wintering", I clicked on "wintering shed", and did not see it. I'm sorry to be a nuisance, is there a specific date you can point me to?


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## beefarmer (May 2, 2010)

I have a small 24x24 building that used to be an office, has windows on all 4 sides, I took 2 sides and raised the sliding window, screwed a 1x6 with 3 holes in each board and ran [I think it's 1 1/2 clear tubing] out thru the holes, and into the round hole I have in the nuc box entrance. would be similar to an ob hive setup.I keep a small milkhouse heater on a thermostat set at 45 deg. I did this 2 years ago and it worked fine until just before I could move them outside, I lost all 5 of them. I do have a screened hole on the top for a mason jar feeder that I keep syrup in, I know 45 deg. is too cold for syrup to work, but some sunny days it will get in the 60's in there, and bees will be going outside even though it is cold outside. Trying this again this year, so far so good, have 6 nucs in there and have filled the jars twice now.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Beefarmer, why do you think they died? Thanks for the post.


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## beefarmer (May 2, 2010)

Adrian, not real sure, it almost seemed like it would get so warm in the shed, fooling them into thinking it's time to go foraging, they might have left and couldn't make it back. Maybe I should have moved them outside at that time and being most of the winter was over they could have acclimated better? There wasn't a whole lot of dead bees in the nuc box, I thought because being a nuc there weren't a lot of bees to start with. They were 5 frame nucs that I started by raising my queens with the jester system. I will pay closer attention this year and see if I figure it out. I did try several years ago putting a 2 deep hive in a greenhouse, that didn't work at all, like being so hot they would fly out get against the plastic and like they couldn't figure out to go back in the hive.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Great job Jodie and welcome to beesourse!
You hit a homerun on your first post...I down loaded the pdf. and have read it twice
already ,,,I have it on my desktop on my computer and yes, it could be scaled to how-
ever many hives a person needs to winter..good job :thumbsup:
==McBee7==


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The only two guys I have known who did indoor wintering, one kept 200 singles in one building he built especially for the bees and another guy who used trailers. Neither did it very long. Ventilation seemed to be as important, if not more important, than the right temperature.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Scroll through winter shed. Use a lap top as smart phones don't seem to navigate through my site very well.

Those big black ventilation ducts are my light traps, the idea is to bounce the light as many times as you can manage without restricting air flow. I have the ducts set up with over lapping baffels which bounces the light into darkness


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Ventilation seemed to be as important, if not more important, than the right temperature.<<

No temp is just as important


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

If I can figure out the overwintering thing here,
I've been thinking about offering the few beeks in this area, offers of
maybe $30 for the contents of each hive in the fall, and increase
my #'s that way,,,,they all tell me it cant be done,,,I'd love to prove them
wrong and make a profit at the same time,,,,,I could probably find 20 or more
hives that are left to die out every winter on their own,,,maybe trade them
for new frames and cash...
...Just thinkin...
==McBee7==


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

We are doing 400 indoors this winter. Keeping the building at 40F opening the door each night to change out the air.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

McBee7 said:


> they all tell me it cant be done


25 years of wintering bees 4 hours from you says they are probably wrong :scratch:


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>We are doing 400 indoors this winter. Keeping the building at 40F opening the door each night to change out the air.<<

That's a lot of work and ties you to the barn. Why not set up ceiling fans and vent fans?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I see you are from Frostbite Falls home of Rocky and Bullwinkle. I think you could winter indoors. You have precious few warm spells during the winter there. That would be your undoing, the February Thaw! If you couldn't keep it cool inside, the bees would start crawling. I remember people trying indoor in the sixties and seventies in ND along the border with the Great White North. They didn't get it done. 

I think the Canadians have got the thing figured out though. Listen to them And figure out some way to create a big block of ice to pull you ventilation intake through.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Well thank you all for the warm welcome. Adrian, I have used the document I posted along with advice that a commercial beekeeper has given me. All feeding takes place prior to putting the bees in the wintering building. It is very important to get the 'singles' up to +75lbs before they are put in the shed. I feed sugar water 2:1, honey for sure would be as good, I have no experience with corn syrup. If you must feed it can be done in the building.

Light traps are not too tricky. Basically it is a box made of wood. It changes the direction of the air and is non-reflective so that the light is unable to enter the wintering building. I am embarrassed to say how basic my light trap is. I use and empty super with the bottom screwed onto it. I just cover the air makeup vent with it. If you close the door on a sunny day and there is no light entering the building, but you are getting air into the building it is good. Currently I am wintering 98 hives in the same shed. Last year I had built an interior wall because I needed less space. This year I am using the whole shed. 

A couple of learning's from experience. 1.) There will be dead bees, if you are feeding there will be spills. The two make for a horrible mess. This year my hives are up on pallets and I spread pine shavings on the floor. 
2.) Bees can see Red Compact Florescent Lights. 
3.) The high temperature thermostat is a MUST. I almost lost everything due to over-temperature. We got a warm spell and the outside temperature jumped to 55f and I didn't catch it for 12 hours. When I finally checked the inside of the wintering building was 87f! The bees were very active and all could have perished.
4.) Put them in the building as soon as it gets cold and keep them in as long as you can control the temperature below about 48f.

If you have the savvy you could hook up temperature control equipment to the 'web'. I have yet to do this but my friend did. He gets an email every four hours to his smartphone letting him know the temperature. Plus an alarm email if the temperature is out of range. Really it is cheap insurance if you are wintering 39 hives. I actually think this is the smartest use of technology I have seen, but I am internet limited in my area and haven't chased it yet.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Jodie pretty much sums it up. Read between the lines


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Jodie I am shocked you did not lose then all at 87F. 

I let the temperature rise to 45 - 50 F periodically during the winter to let smaller cluster relocate and gives the hives a chance to toss dead bees.

Warm spells and chinooks make indoor wintering much more nerve racking. About the only thing Manitoba winters are good for is indoor wintering of bees.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Thanks Ian and Jodie, I finally understand the light box.  

I think Vance's idea of setting up an ice box tunenel as cheap insurance to find a way of pulling cold air in is a good one. As an alternative, for those of us contemplating doing it on a small scale, is there any drawback to having them on pallets and wheeling them just outside the door on a potential cleansing flight day? 

McBee, I would say it could definitely be done in International Falls, but I would be cautious as to who you buy the cast-off bees from. Bees entering winter need to be well-nourished and have a low mite load. If the beekeeper hasn't treated for mites and they have been sitting in a box with minimal stores they might not be the best. However, then again, if the bees started from packages can sometimes survive the first winter untreated so at $30 a pop it could be a good gamble.


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## Dav (Jul 9, 2012)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Thanks Ian and Jodie, I finally understand the light box.
> 
> I think Vance's idea of setting up an ice box tunenel as cheap insurance to find a way of pulling cold air in is a good one....Bees entering winter need to be well-nourished and have a low mite load. If the beekeeper hasn't treated for mites and they have been sitting in a box with minimal stores they might not be the best. However, then again, if the bees started from packages can sometimes survive the first winter untreated so at $30 a pop it could be a good gamble.


I like the concept of time shifting the brutal cold of winter into blocks of ice (perhaps set into a wandering warren for increased exposure as the air flows?) It has the advantage of phase conversion with calories of heat in the air being consumed to convert the solid to water and then the evaporation of the water on top of that. Since this would not work in my situation (normally tolerant neighbors perhaps becoming more incredulous at the ice palace going up outside my garage), I would experiment with a swamp cooler. Relative humidity in cooler temperatures can make for reasonable efficiency and certainly would be more compact than an ice warren. 

$30 a pop? Some payment to cover the woodware received would be in order I suppose. I had an experience in this area in late fall of 2012. Through our local bee club I met a very gracious keeper who was willing to _give me seven hives of bees he was planning to depopulate (take your losses in the fall) that I then pulled into indoor storage. Since he wanted to keep his frames and the comb on them, we devised a method for transfering his bees to my boxes and frames with no payment wanted or asked. All my new friend wanted was to see how the experiment with indoor storage went. The hives were hops treated for mites but just small enough that winter survival in the Monticello MN outdoors was not likely. Perhaps you will be so lucky.

By the way transfering bees to other frames so late in the season did not work out so well. If I were to do it again I would want to buy the frames or at the least make the transfer much earlier in the fall, at a time when perhaps other keepers might not yet be convinced their hives would not build to viability. I think I would be on the buy-or-don't-do plan.

--David_


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

I am wintering indoors this year. I have 14 hives in an 8x10 shed that I have insulated with R12 insulation, a double layer on the ceiling. I have cut and installed 2 8x10 vents into the front and the back of the shed for ventilation. I have a pedestal fan on low setting blowing between the hives with a small space heater that keeps the temperature above 0C but below 10C. The vents are covered with black fabric so light cannot enter. 

I was in the shed last night and knocked on the hives and there is still activity within. 

Several concerns I have:

1. my bees are suicidal and flying into my pedestal fan to die as there is a layer of bees near it.
2. the receiver on my cord to the shed lights up, also a layer there, easy fix black electrical tape will cover it up.
3. my biggest concern, what happens in the spring when the nights are cold but the daytime temp warms to above 10C? can I just throw open the doors during the day time hours and close it at night when it gets dark?


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

Here is the permalink to Ian's wintering shed:

http://stepplerfarms.com/Honeyblog/2013/03/14/winter-shed/

Thank you for the description, Ian!

I am toying with the idea of setting one up, at least for nucs. We shall see how I am feeling about it next fall.


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## Dav (Jul 9, 2012)

By the proverbial bye, in re-reading this entire thread, I think there are two scales being considered. Adrian, you at 39 hives have set a relative definition for small scale. This scale admits of a degree of investment that I cannot swing and so my thinking defines a "micro" scale in comparison at two or three hives.

The major difference I see is whether one can provide a space in which the bees fly free or whether they must be screened into their hives. My interest envisions the small hobbyist who wishes to have spring-time options to the increasingly costly purchase of packages. It makes me ask, what do I have with which to bring the bees through more than what can I make.

I have a garage with a work bench next to a window, arguably something a fair number of hobby beekeepers might have, since one needs some place for all that equipment. The space I _have_ is dual use, i.e. free-flying bees and car-parking (not to mention marital harmony) being in some degree not fully compatible. Screen them in and tube them out--this scale seems to me more feasible to the "micro" scale hobbyist. 

Some days I wish I had the capacity to entertain your "small" scale endeavor, Adrian, and perhaps someday I may have opportunity to tour what you construct if you are willing (just 20 miles up the road as I figure). For now, less is more for me. If this spring I buy no packages, I'll be whistling Dixie or sky-you-mah or whatever people do in these parts.

--David


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## northbee (Apr 16, 2009)

Interesting read. It made me recall an article I read in ABJ a while back about wintering singles outdoors in Saskatchewan (SK). The link to the article is:

http://www.pedersenapiaries.ca/wintering_singles.html
http://www.pedersenapiaries.ca/revisited.html

Upon reading this I recalled a research paper I read in a college biology course about the wintering behavior of rodents in cold climates. They essentially tunnel under the snow. This is an incredibly stable environment with adequate ventilation due to the porous nature of snow. It seems to me that if you live in an area with a reliable snowpack this method may save you all the trouble of moving bees indoors and then out again. Also would be easy to experiment with on a small scale with minimal inputs in terms of buildings and equipment. 

thanks for all the interesting insights and info.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>1. my bees are suicidal and flying into my pedestal fan to die as there is a layer of bees near it.
2. the receiver on my cord to the shed lights up, also a layer there, easy fix black electrical tape will cover it up.
3. my biggest concern, what happens in the spring when the nights are cold but the daytime temp warms to above 10C? can I just throw open the doors during the day time hours and close it at night when it gets dark?<<

Josh, loosing bees into the darkness all winter is normal. So far I have swept up two wheel barrel full of bees. Out doors, they drift into the snow.

Your right, any light will attract bee flight

The spring is the hardest part to manage. As temps warm the shed becomes hard to cool with outdoor air, the bees get restless as they have been confined for months and they start pooping over the hives entrances. If they are set out too soon you risk the chance of exposing them to cold, which does them no favour. So the trick is to find that perfect late winter day to set them out on which allows them to easily fly, relieve themselves, and get back to the hive. First spring flight is quite the sight as thousands of bees in a yard head out. Get very messy. Best thing to do is wait and keep your eyes on your shed temp. Once the temp starts pushing the limits find that day and start the year again.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

merince said:


> Here is the permalink to Ian's wintering shed:
> 
> http://stepplerfarms.com/Honeyblog/2013/03/14/winter-shed/
> 
> Thank you for the description,


That's my old shed, I have set up a similar set up in a newly constructed honey facility. Key to maintaining a good wintering environment is ceiling fans to mix the air and thermostat controlled vent fans


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I have long tried to dissuade folks from feeling the need to rush out and brush every snowflake off hives. The pile of snow forming behind a hedge and covering the bees deep in the drift is the best wintering situation I ever found. A local commercial beek had a mountain yard he failed to get moved before the little valley filled with snow, found the bees alive and doing well so I don't think the bees will suffocate with any level of snow over them. An ice cave forms around the hives and I have seen evidence that the bees crawl out and void on the outside of the hives. The bees usually went under the snowbank in December and it was late march or april before the top of the drift would collapse and a cloud of bees would emerge.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Yes I have found the exact same situation. Sometimes late winter storms will bring rain. It's that ice layer over the bank that them though.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Yuuki, nice links. I wonder what temp it is at ground level in the snow compared to the air temp above?

Josh, from what the guys are saying it sounds like you are doing it right.:thumbsup:

Ian, is there a typo in the second sentence?


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Ian, I am working my way up to your scale. I had a couple questions. 
Pallets; do you have any trouble handling your pallets? I see they are not notched so that a forklift can pick them up on the side.
Are you using clips to hold supers on the pallets?
What kind of truck/trailer/forklift are you running?
I notice that you don't have any headspace built in to your lids. Would you recommend some space? Do you just throw pollen patties under the lid?
Is your shed/Quonset insulated? Spray type or other means? I like the concept of the building, but man insulating it would be tough. 
What size are your fans?


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

A well insulated shed saves a lot of grief in spring. I've wintered bees in a poorly insulated and a well insulted shed and there is not comparison. In a poorly insulated shed the day time temperatures in spring can get higher than outdoor temperatures where as in a well insulated shed it is much easier to keep temperatures cooler than the outside temperatures.

Last resort in spring is to shovel in snow. Makes a mess but sure drops the temperature in a hurry. Adding blocks of ice in spring also can help cool things down but tends to be much more work.

If I were wintering on a small scale and wanted to winter indoors, I would make sure my shed was very well insulated (R20 on walls and R50 on the ceiling) and in spring I would draw in lots cold air at night, shut the air exchange fans down during the day and add tubs of snow to keep things cool. Over head fans that create a lot of air movement keep the bees inside their hives as well. Actually, I do the same thing on a large scale, though I haven't need to add snow for a lot of years.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> . I wonder what temp it is at ground level in the snow compared to the air temp above?


Just slight below freezing with more than 12 in of snow. I image with a hive present it would probably be just slightly above freezing.


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## northbee (Apr 16, 2009)

The temp slightly below freezing is what I recall from the small mammal article.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Pallets; do you have any trouble handling your pallets? I <<

My forklift lifts them from under the frount. 

>>Are you using clips to hold supers on the pallets?<<

Yes, that's the ticket to moving bee hives. 

>>What kind of truck/trailer/forklift are you running?<<

That a scroll through my blog. You will see my entire operation

>>headspace<<

No, head space would be usefull later in spring for feeding patties but I don't like headspace on my lids because of all the comb built in that space. We run through heavy flows here

>>Is your shed/Quonset insulated? ><

Yes

>>What size are your fans?<<

I have a 12" and a 14" wired into separate thermostat controllers


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Ian, is there a typo in the second sentence?<<

No, rain is a farmers late winter curse. Suffocation of perennial crops and in regards to this conversation, possibly bee hives as well. Local Beekeepers claimed suffocation from last winter. Just too much snow covering yards in drifts, and every time they shovelled the yards out the wind blew them back over. This created very hard dense snow banks and created the environment for hives suffocating underneath
Some of these guys worked tirelessly only to have all their work erased the next day....
But not my bees, they sat patiently in the shed waiting for spring


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I think that while we have some cold, Canada is really a world apart when it comes to winter. I can imagine the penetrative effect of that snow blowing like dust into any opening, I think Allen Dick has referred to it in his Diary.
One reason I am interested in indoor wintering is to spread the risk and keep a sustainable apiary. If my bees are outside and we have a crappy weather event, like 2 weeks of -50, or the ice storm or blizzards Ian mentions, they could all die. Yet if I have them all inside and the CO2 rises because of fan failure they could die as well. 
The likelihood of both of those events happening in the same year would seem improbable.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Adrian if I had a place to park an old reefer semi trailer, I would put in the fans and thermostatically controlled switches to run the necessary ventilation. By having your cooling/exchange air coming out of a plenum built down the entire length of the center and a hooded exaust fan up on top in the middle, I think it could be made to work pretty inexpensively. I don't think you would need any heating. Come to think of it I may find a place to park and hook up an old reefer trailer!


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Vance, I had to look up "plenum". From the definitions available I guess "space above a false ceiling used for cables, ducts etc." is what you mean - credit to Wiktionary. I could see the reefer working as well, but I am thinking of a more modest system using space I already have. 
I am thinking next winter i will start with a dozen colonies, enough to gain experience but not so many to break the bank. I woke up thinking about bees, electronics and automatic controls; I looked towards my warm peaceful,sleeping wife and thought about starting a conversation about the subject and then thought better of it. I'm getting smarter - 12 years of marriage, 3rd and final wife!
Anyway, here is my provisional plan. I have a an outside unheated shed, about 30x40 with 12 foot ceilings, and a concrete floor. The building houses our old RV, my lawn tractor, supers etc. My lot is built into a hill so the back of it is 4 feet below ground level. I am thinking of taking one of the back corners and making a temporary enclosure out of R10 Foamular http://www.homedepot.com/p/Owens-Co...-8-ft-Scored-Squared-Edge-Foam-45W/100320352# I envisage the structure having a 4x8 sheet as a ceiling, a side, and half of one as an end; The cinder block corner could be the other end and side or I could use 1x foamular. I am thinking I would put the bees on a pallet in the center of the space and leave enough floor space to sweep out the dead. The whole end piece would be removable and I would be able to wheel out the pallet of bees outside in an emergency. 
Ventilation control: Hmmm, from what I have read so far this is the most critical part, and I haven't got that sorted out. At the moment I am thinking I would use the air from my shed because it is fresh and clean, but not as chilled as the outside. I could make a light box for ventilation access, I don't think I want the hole at the top because heat I may want to conserve would escape, or perhaps I should make an emergency vent at the top just in case. I was thinking of having the vent built into the front end and having a small desk top fan inside the back corner, and another at the front, or perhaps having one at the front, and one at the back on the side. If I were able to rig up a CO2 monitor, a thermostat, and have those control the on-off I think it would stand a chance. Thoughts?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

A "plenum" in a reefer trailer does not have to be particularly complicated:









That yellow chute is flexible plastic - when no moving air is keeping it inflated, it collapses flat against the trailer wall. More here:
http://www.itwip.com/Products/ChutesandAdapters/TubeChuteAdapters.aspx


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Graham, that is cool. Who knew.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Adrian, you are on the right track. All you need for ventilation is a small Broan bathroom fan 110+ CFM (Home Depot) for ventilation and a makeup air vent for your small room in your shed. If the fan cycles 2X a day you won't need CO2 monitoring. Perhaps a ceiling fan to circulate are in the shed and keep the temperature even. Simple is best. Someone posted that ventilation more important than temperature. Basically the two are the same thing.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I would worry more about high temps than low if it were me. a cooling system is very important from my information with indoor wintering.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Ian,
I did creep on your website. Very impressive. Was that your truck that Herb Isaac had listed on his website for sale last summer? I debated an ezyloader over a skid steer but no one near me uses one. How much can it lift? What do they cost approximately and installation time? It looks really useful but the 2 hive pallet seems like a pain to handle vs. the 4 hive pallet. Plus they would tip over more?

I really like your use of the bulk container cages to hold feeder pails, genius.

Your new building is awesome btw. That is an impressive building. I hope one day to afford such a luxury.

Thanks again for your time.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

No that's a truck I modified and installed a new loader. It'll lift 650lbs and is mostly implemented throughout the honey pull. The rest of my work with it is mainly convenience. 
Nothing is other than lifting the boxes yourself is cost effective. It all depends on how it's all justified.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Adrian, In thinking aabout room sizes and building sizes and the
prices of building I thought of "The Conex" :} The ones i looked
at on ebay were 8 by8 by 20 which works out to 1280 cubic feet.
One of the canadian pdf,s listed on here talked about 35 cubic feet
as a limit for hive consentrations in buildings...1280 divided by 35cubic
feet gives you roughly 36 hives, almost all of your hives would fit, and if 
you put 40 in there, it would work out to about 32 cubic feet per hive..
I think if you have constant air flow, the hive consentrations can 
go up..so you'd be ok...Just a thought and thats more than micro-
wintering.. The price for a used conex is under $2000..you probably
cant build a comparable size shed for less than that...:}
==McBee7==


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

And along the lines of "Micro-Wintering"
If you have a cubicle about 4ft wide 6ft high and 8ft long,,if you used the
guidline of 35 cubic feet per hive, you could have 5+ hives in there....

Menards sells a plug in timer for lamps ect. for less than $10..which
could be used to turn on a bathroom exhaust fan mounted low on the 
wall to get rid of the nasty co2 ect at floor level...

http://www.menards.com/main/electri...let-digital-indoor-timer/p-2160727-c-6471.htm


They also sell a temp controler for heat tape (pipes) that plugs into
a cord and has an outlet built into it for arround $20,,You could plug
in a barn type heater and turn up its thermo to max and let the cont-
roler turn it on and off..The controler is preset to turn on when the 
temp comes down to 35f and off when the temp comes up to 45f...

http://www.menards.com/main/heating...line-limiting-thermostat/p-134238-c-12864.htm

One other thing you would need is a way to let fresh air in when the
exhaust fan is running....If you install a flappy door like on your dryer,
on the outside of your house,,But install it backwards,,,So that when
the ex-fan is running and there is a negitive pressure in the cubicle,
the flapper would open up on its own and let fresh air in...Probably
higher in the room.....

http://www.menards.com/main/heating...4-x-8-proflex-trade-duct/p-1391032-c-9502.htm

==McBee7==


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

How many parts per million should we keep the Co2 under.? What kind of numbers are you seeing you in space?


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Good thinking McBee, I am most likely to go with the exhaust fan and small volume option. -15F here this am, but according to Accuweather it is -36F in your location.


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## sjj (Jan 2, 2007)

McBee7 said:


> … 8 by8 by 20 which works out to 1280 cubic feet.
> … gives you roughly 36 hives, … $2000 ... you probably can't build a comparable size shed for less than that ...


… 8 by8 by 20 which works out to 1280 cubic feet. 
… gives you roughly 36 hives, … $2000 ... you probably can't build a comparable size shed for less than that ...

Shed? 
Why not to dig a hole. You will get there optimal temperature 33°- 40° F without paying a cent for ventiliation, cooling or heating. Put up a chimney for the air output. Horizontal pipes in the bottom - for an the air input. Of course – a roof.
Seems much lower in price than $2000.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

sjj said:


> … 8 by8 by 20 which works out to 1280 cubic feet.
> … gives you roughly 36 hives, … $2000 ... you probably can't build a comparable size shed for less than that ...
> 
> Shed?
> ...


With the cost of a tractor and materials its going to be more than 2000...... 
Of course you could dig it by hand in about 6 weeks.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> A "plenum" in a reefer trailer does not have to be particularly complicated:
> 
> That yellow chute is flexible plastic - when no moving air is keeping it inflated, it collapses flat against the trailer wall. More here:
> http://www.itwip.com/Products/ChutesandAdapters/TubeChuteAdapters.aspx


How many hives are you putting in the trailers?


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Honestly, I think you guys are making indoor wintering too complicated. On a small scale, input cost should be very minimal and the setup should be very straight forward. IMO much of the literature that is out there about indoor wintering is base upon "expert opinion" and not empirical research. Much of the recommended setup is nice to have but is cost prohibitive for small scale indoor wintering.

Heat - is not an issue. Bees produce a lot of heat. Currently, my 3000 cfm exhaust fan run a total of 2.5 hours per day and with the nights being -35 C and days being -30 C the wintering room is a 5 C with no heat. On year when clusters are smaller, like last year, I put up some 1500W heaters. Its not a problem if you come in and find the temperature has dropped some. This won't hurt the bees, just make the necessary adjustments.

Ventilation - very important. I would probably install a bathroom fan for a small number of hives and attach it to a car block heater timer. If ventilation is being done CO2 should not be a problem. A ceiling fan is a good idea for mixing air and strong air flow keeps the bees in the hives in spring when the temperatures warm up.

One of the hardest parts of indoor wintering is dealing with warmer spring temperatures.


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## S.M.N.Bee (Aug 9, 2011)

So how do you determine when to take the bees out of the shelter?


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

I currently do not have an exhaust fan on my shed. I have 2 8x10" air vents higher up on my 8x10 shed. I also have a pedestal fan running on low close to the ground. I have 14 hives in the shed and there is plenty of air space.

Do you think I will run into ventilation problems with this setup? I like the bathroom exhaust fan Idea on a timer, wish I had thought of that while I was preparing my shed.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

S.M.N.

Boils down to determining when conditions are more favourable to move the bees out than keeping them in. A mixture of looking at the weather forecast, time of year and gut feeling.

If warmer weather hits very early, I probably wouldn't move the bees out if I didn't need to as I would anticipate some cold weather would still be coming. If the warmer weather hits later in spring, I move them out. 

Ideal conditions are about 10 - 15 C, sunny and no wind the day after the bees have been moved out. Warmer and especially windy can result in drifting the first day. If I see strong winds being predicted for the next day I try not to move bees out or choose very sheltered yards.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Josh

Ventilation wise you should be fine with 14 hives. Not ideal but should work for a year if you have a circulation fan running. You might need to open the door at night to cool the shed down when daytime temperatures get higher.

Are your vents light trapped? If not that could be a problem in spring when the wintering shed heats up. Bees will be attacked to the light.

With the open vents what temperature is the shed now with the cold temperatures?


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

Allen Martens said:


> Josh
> 
> Ventilation wise you should be fine with 14 hives. Not ideal but should work for a year if you have a circulation fan running. You might need to open the door at night to cool the shed down when daytime temperatures get higher.
> 
> ...


I covered the vents with a double layer of black cloth. It keeps the shed dark at all times but allows air to move through. The temperature in the shed stays at between 2-7 degrees C as I have a small space heater set up to go on when temperatures go below 5 degrees.

I was thinking about starting to freeze 5 gallon pails of water to prepare for the coming warmer days of spring. putting pails of ice within the shed should help keep it cooler I believe.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I covered the vents with a double layer of black cloth. It keeps the shed dark at all times but allows air to move through.<<

as long as there is air movement through the shed. Periodic opening of the door would help too. 
But when it starts getting warm, you will want to pump air into the building to provide fresh air. That is what I like to do. Beekeepers like Allen will actually turn off his fan during the day, and open his shed doors at night to cool off the shed. 
Like Allen said, opening the door at night to cool off the shed will work


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

This thread has made me think about a winter indoor system for my nucs. Thinking to put a reefer unit [without the trailer] which I can buy for around $5,000. Unit has electric backup so I can plug it in. Venting and circulation will be the biggest issue. Not too worried about cold. Bees should keep it warm enough. Thoughts?


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

What about installing a portable air conditioner?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JoshW said:


> What about installing a portable air conditioner?


yes, I know a guy that has installed a cooler off a refer to cool his shed. Im planning the same thing,, sometime in the near future. The cost is a bit prohibitive as it only would be used for a short time each year but by having the ability to cool the shed during warming spells would greatly decrease the threat of an over heated shed as we scramble to remove the hives during spring flash heat waves


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

Ian said:


> yes, I know a guy that has installed a cooler off a refer to cool his shed. Im planning the same thing,, sometime in the near future. The cost is a bit prohibitive as it only would be used for a short time each year but by having the ability to cool the shed during warming spells would greatly decrease the threat of an over heated shed as we scramble to remove the hives during spring flash heat waves


for my small shed a $200 portable AC would do the trick already.

Having the ability to cool your shed would also allow you to truck through the first few flash heat waves indoors, I understand the drastic changes in temp from day to night in the early spring tends to put additional stress on the colonies.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I have a couple of window units for $25 if your looking. They are 5 years old and I used them in the old house


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

JoshW said:


> for my small shed a $200 portable AC would do the trick already.


I tried a window unit for a cold room for vegetable storage and it didn't work well at all. They are designed to operate at 70F and above. Had to by pass the thermostat/temp controller and use a thermostat/contacter. Next problem was that the fins are too close together and in continuous running to get to 40F, the fins totally frosted over and there was no air flow.

Tried adding a timer so it ran for a hour and then off for two hours to defrost. Just never worked well and I removed it this last fall.


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

mgolden said:


> I tried a window unit for a cold room for vegetable storage and it didn't work well at all. They are designed to operate at 70F and above. Had to by pass the thermostat/temp controller and use a thermostat/contacter. Next problem was that the fins are too close together and in continuous running to get to 40F, the fins totally frosted over and there was no air flow.
> 
> Tried adding a timer so it ran for a hour and then off for two hours to defrost. Just never worked well and I removed it this last fall.


So what did you end up using in its place?


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

Ian said:


> I have a couple of window units for $25 if your looking. They are 5 years old and I used them in the old house


The problem with a window unit is..... my shed does not have a window.

the portable units have a hose attachment to pull air from outside, if this would work then I wouldn't have to cut a chunk out of the side of my shed.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Window units will not work, the temp setting do not go low enough, and the BTU rateing would be questionable A sub 0 freezer requires a differnt refregerant.


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

I have a buddy who works for a refrigeration company, I will pick his brain, I doubt there is anything reasonably priced that would do this job on a small scale.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

actually walk in cooler / freexer units can be bought on ebay for about 1500 new. used onesd bring 3-400 when you can find them. (just the reefer)


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

JoshW said:


> So what did you end up using in its place?


For winter months I run a timer and thermostat in series. Have a fan in inlet air duct. On warmer ends(Oct & March), I blow cold night air in and cool it down. Timer is set so fan cannot run during warmer day hours.

During colder months, I set timer to run during day hours(8AM-7PM). Find natural flow of ducting will more than take care of the night. If daytime outside temp never gets above 20C, I need to close vents or supplement heat via a space heater. Have a remote sensor thermostat that alarms at 1C, in case I forget.

Come March, we move carrots into a refridgerator.

Some further points. 
1) If I was to go to an indoor bee storage, I'd seriously consider a natural ventilation system supplemented by electric-exhaust vent on the roof and inlets on the wall. What if electricity fails or fan system fails or you don't have a Iphone alarm. Natural airflow worked in the Canadian Prairie Barns quite well when electricty wasn't available.

2) I wonder if water in barrels that would be cooled down with night air would work to cool during the day for spring and fall. Have seen the reverse of black barrels in a green house that are heated in the day and release heat in the night. May be far fetched as quite a number of barrels are required.

3) Find the concept of indoor wintering interesting, but I don't know as indoor wintering is for me. Eggs are all in one basket. And I don't like working late into the night and moving bees. I also worry about a cold snap in the spring with hives outside and little protection. I don't unwrap and remove insulation until mid May and hives are really strong by then. So much so, that they are get almost too strong(living on the edge of swarming), so I plan to purchase some Kona queens, remove some brood & bees and start some May NUCs.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

gmcharlie said:


> Window units will not work, the temp setting do not go low enough, and the BTU rateing would be questionable A sub 0 freezer requires a differnt refregerant.


Actually I'm looking at this. Thinking it might work:
http://www.storeitcold.com/?gclid=CO2Bo5D82rsCFWQOOgodW30AnQ


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

interesting.. apply the formula for BTU mentioned before and recalculate. I think you will find depending on the number of hives your still short. Heat loss is one thing, heat addition is another. Hives are heat adders do not assume they are netral, not cooling pop. cooling light bulbs that are turned on...


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Actually I'm thinking 2 24,000 BTU units, one at each end of the unit, set at 41°. Then put a couple of small space heaters set at 38°. What do you think?


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## JoshW (Feb 5, 2013)

camero7 said:


> Actually I'm thinking 2 24,000 BTU units, one at each end of the unit, set at 41°. Then put a couple of small space heaters set at 38°. What do you think?


I am thinking you have about 10,000 dollars worth of equipment there, without the cost of the building. Will need to sell over 100 nucs before you even recover the money for what you are trying to build here. with proper management how long do you think it would take you to lose 100 nucs to the elements to make this idea make financial sense? "Cool" idea but is it worth it?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Going to use a 40' shipping container... about $3,000 - I think I can set up the whole thing for $10,000. Sold 250 nucs last year without too much trouble. Brought them up from FL. Have you seen the prices of overwintered nucs this spring? @ $200/ea. wouldn't take long to recover. I can also use it for extraction and summer storage. Going to put the nucs on removable benches. Can have a hot room at the back and extraction in the front. Since it will be well insulated shouldn't be a problem. Should be able to overwinter a couple hundred nucs in that setup. Less feed and much lower winter loss will also factor in.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

my wintering room doubles as my hot room during the summer production months. build the facility as a dual purpose to help justify the costs
It has given me the luxury of using a very large hot room during the summer, and satisfies the space needed for wintering


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Another new learning. When homebrewing, lager is supposed to have about 7 weeks at 35 degrees F. I could see a beekeeper getting double duty from an overwintering shed for the last stage of fermentation. 
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter10-5.html


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Ian said:


> my wintering room doubles as my hot room during the summer production months.


Do you need to add a lot of heat during extraction, or does natural heating do the trick ?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I will have 2000 supers plus waiting to extract. With the room full heating the entire room is justified


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Ian, is it primarily canola, and does heat retard the crystallization process or reverse it. I have read on Allen Dick's website that he had one year in which the Canola crystallized in the supers before he could get it out. It sounds like Canola is a mixed bag, high yields but needs some special management?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Canola makes us rich but it also woks us to a frazzle. Once we start into the canola we can't let up til it's all done. I will loose honey to granulation every year. We heat the honey to make extraction more efficient. Warm honey extracts better. We cant keep it warm enough to retard granulation


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Let me just say that this thread was an amazing read. There is an old timer in my area that winters in a shed. He does well. I don't have the means to put bees in a shed but I am moving to a more rural area in the near future and will be looking for houses soon. Maybe I should find a place with a nice shed. I've always wanted to do this. I may still keep my full sized hives outside and just put nucs indoors. My new management strategy is not to combine weak hives but rather break them down into nucs to winter. Awesome thread!

Edit-sorry for a bit of a grave dig, but I really did enjoy reading this.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Here's an alternative to digging a hole or building a shed---

Make a house of straw bales--bales measure about 2'by4'by1-1/2'---so if you stack them
4 or 5 high that will put the roof at about 6 to 7 ft high,,side walls can be any length you want in
multipuls of 4 ft...
2" by 4" by 10ft for the roof support every 2 or 4 ft, throw chip board on top and cover
the top and long sides with plastic,,,leave the bale end uncovered so it breaths...
And the other end make a plywood wall with a door....We used to do this in the winter to house
calves when there wasn't enough room in the barn...interior would be about 6 ft wide inside,
with 2ft thick side walls out to 10 ft wide......BUT watch out with a heater!!!! everything is
FLAMMABLE....You can build one in a day if you have the material and break it down into its
parts in the spring if you like....Just a thought...

==McBee7==


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## HeritageHoney (Feb 28, 2013)

McBee7 said:


> Here's an alternative to digging a hole or building a shed---
> 
> Make a house of straw bales--bales measure about 2'by4'by1-1/2'---so if you stack them
> 4 or 5 high that will put the roof at about 6 to 7 ft high,,side walls can be any length you want in
> ...


This is exactly what I kept envisioning the whole time I was reading this thread. You could easily make it as big or as small as you wanted. I've got access to hay bales and this would allow me to try this on a small scale very cheaply. Has anyone actually tried this and had success with it? I can see it becoming a 'mouse motel' so I would put a few kittens in there!!!!

Also, does indoor over-wintering count as 'cheating' to the proponents of "locally-raised and over-wintered stocks" of bees? :no:


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

How would you keep it cool on the hot, sunny days. In a warmer climate than Canada we will have problems during thaws, heating will be much less of an issue. ?Doesn't sound practicable to me.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

This shelter would definately have its drawbacks, but if you put a layer of bales on the roof, on 
top of the plastic and chip board you would have a "quilt box" on a different scale, it would help
keep it cooler in march,,,,As far as light proof--I'm not to sure,,,,,,if you made it till march--you
could just take down some of the plastic, and open up a bale or 4 on the sides to let some
air in, or just take off the roof and let them fly,,,they would still have the sides for a wind break.
If ventalation was a problem, you could make a bale tunnel and put a box fan in it (light proof?)
And DON'T forget the cats--LOL--BEE CATS.... This would definately make a temperary shelter
from the storms of winter, but would have some drawbacks that would fource you to keep an eye
on things, but I think it would be workable...JMO..

==McBee7==


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

McBee7 said:


> This shelter would definately have its drawbacks, but if you put a layer of bales on the roof, on
> top of the plastic and chip board you would have a "quilt box" on a different scale, it would help
> keep it cooler in march,,,,As far as light proof--I'm not to sure,,,,,,if you made it till march--you
> could just take down some of the plastic, and open up a bale or 4 on the sides to let some
> ...


One thing you might be missing. The whole idea behind indoor wintering is control. Bees have their lowest metabolism between 40 degrees farenheit (5c) and 50 degrees farenheit (10c). If you spend the money you can control the temperature. If you control the temperature, you control the rate at which the bees eat. If it goes above or below this temperature the rate increases quickly in either direction. This IS a science and an art. If you are going to go this far, don't take shortcuts. Build an r12 or r20 insulated building sheeted in and out with lots of ventilation. Make sure it is built so you can get them out fast if the temperature gets out of control. Spend the money on the building or lose it on dead hives. Either way it will cost you.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

--JT---I wasn't thinking of this as a totaly controled environment but as a stop gap...more than
having your hives standing out in the raw winter elements and giving them more protection than
just covering them with plastic in a grove of trees....This would take the sting out of some
of the coldest winter forays and slow down the highs of springs advances....It would take
some management but is a low cost alternative to the guy that has 10 hives and cant find a 
place to shelter them......Heck you could build this shelter right over their stand, out in the 
bee yard.....I don't think you would just set your hives out for the "Seskatuan Screamers"
As we call them here, and expect them to survive,,,(I'm proof of that)...This could take off
enough of the edge of the worst winters to give the little guy a chance at survival...And 
giving the beginner a chance to evaluate the survival of the different breeds and possibly
develop a wintering strain of their own without spending $10K on a wintering shed...
Think of it as an above ground "cave" and don't forget the cats....

==McBee7==


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>and slow down the highs of springs advances<<

that is the problem with indoor wintering, is these high temp spring time advances are hard to manage and if the shed is not attended to losses are a result


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

There must be some sort of app for that lol. But seriously isn't there? Something that you can pull up on your phone and get all the stats on the temp in your shed?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Bush_84 said:


> There must be some sort of app for that lol. But seriously isn't there? Something that you can pull up on your phone and get all the stats on the temp in your shed?


oh ya, you can set up all kinds of neat sensors and calling devices on your monitors. But they are just warnings when the limits are reached. Then you MUST deal with the problems!

Even where I manage bees, there are beekeepers not comfortable wintering indoors because of the issues that arise, or because they feel natural wintering is easier on the bees.

I fall into the category where I feel sticking them in a shed where I can control the conditions is beneficial


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