# Are the Canadians wrong?



## cg3

They're just talking about planting procedures, not quitting the use of these chemicals.


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## BeekeepingIsGood

Dr. Tibor I. Szabo take on the issue is here.

There's been a constant stream of news stories in ontario the last couple years of beekeepers loosing mass amounts of bees due to confirmed acute pesticide poisoning.


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## BeekeepingIsGood

We know the pesticides are a problem. Instead of being cautious, it seems they are just going to institute a few minor changes in planting procedures and the government is still trying to use varroa as a scapegoat.


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## cg3

We have it here, too. It seems to be planting practises are indeed a problem.


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## Acebird

Can you explain that? If it were just the planting practices why would it happen everywhere? Isn't it the chemical that is killing the bees? I thought when the chemical hits the ground it becomes inert. Can't be if the bees die from contact with the dust. Most of the dust is going to hit the ground, no?


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## cg3

Way I understand it, the particular machinery we use, under certain conditions, blows dust all over the place.


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## WLC

It's more than just planter dust that's impacting the bees.

Since neonics are both water soluble and can have long half lives in soil, they can 'translocate' away from the coated seed and affect pollinators that way.

There's a broader environmental contamination issue that needs much closer scrutiny.


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## BeekeepingIsGood

It's truly a disastrous substance to be proliferating around the globe. As we pretty much only grow corn and soy in this province, I strongly suspect the officials are doing their best do downplay the catastrophy for the sake of supporting big industry.




> Water is essential for honey bee colonies. Bees fly out from hives even in cold weather to collect water from leaves, soil and wherever they can find it. According to Hunt and Krupke (2012) “each corn seed theoretically has enough pesticide to kill well over 100,000 bees.” Rain water leaches pesticides into the soil where it can remain active for up to three years and honey bees collect water from wet soil, puddles and ditches. Bees consume the water and if the exposure does not cause acute death, the bees bring the water home to poison their colonies resulting in chronic poisoning. Annual applications of neonicotinoids compound the problem. Figure 5 shows water standing in a treated corn field that bees use for water foraging.
> 
> In early spring bees are desperate to collect pollen. They try to collect dust from bird feeders, sawdust, and white powder from poplar tree trunks. A few exposed corn seeds coated in toxic neonicotinoid dust are sufficient to poison entire apiaries as honey bees foraging for pollen carry it back to the colony.
> 
> Since neonicotinoid pesticides are systemic and appear in all parts of a plant including roots, stems, leaves, flowers, and fruit, honey bees become exposed while gathering nectar, pollen, and water.
> 
> By: Dr. Tibor I. Szabo CM, Tibor P. Szabo, and Daniel C. Szabo BSc


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## BlueDiamond

WLC said:


> It's more than just planter dust that's impacting the bees. Since neonics are both water soluble and can have long half lives in soil, they can 'translocate' away from the coated seed and affect pollinators that way. There's a broader environmental contamination issue that needs much closer scrutiny.


A Bayer rep could take you out to the GMO corn monocultures that were planted with neonic coated seed and show you the wildflowers growing next to the cornfield are teaming with wild pollinators like those shown in this 3 minute video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS7xnDRGYjk


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Here is a video showing dust implicated bee deaths.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxXXaILuK5s&feature=youtu.be


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## BlueDiamond

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Here is a video showing dust implicated bee deaths.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxXXaILuK5s&feature=youtu.be


That's a planter dust video so it's not germain to WLC's assertion that: "It's more than just planter dust that's impacting the bees."


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## WLC

BD:

The neonic translocation issue isn't my own assertion but has been cited in the literature for a while now.

I'm not convinced that all of Canada's bee kills are strictly 'fugitive dust' related.

On the other hand, the scientific consensus for causes of Honeybee losses includes nutrition, disease, genetics, and pesticides.

We should ask, "How are they interacting in the case of the reported Honeybee losses in Canada?"

It's easy to miss something fundamental when our attention is misdirected.

My greatest concern for pollinator health is the spillover of diseases like those caused by emerging viruses.

DWV spilling over from Honeybees into the common eastern bumble bee is one example.


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## zhiv9

I believe that it is not only happening in Canada, but many other places. What we have in Ontario and Quebec and probably some of the other provinces is a easy process of reporting and investigating pesticide kills. I am pretty sure that this is lacking in the majority of the US. In Ontario, if you report a pesticide kill to the PMRA they come to your yard with a provincial bee inspector to investigate. The bee inspector examines the hive for signs of other disease and samples are taken back for laboratory testing. Does this happen in your state? If not, you have a big problem. How do you keep track of what you aren't investigating? How do you even know if you have a problem?

A lot of the spring kills here from neonics were acute poisoning. Large population loss (majority of the foragers) with plenty of dead bees out front with pollen. Strong hives were hit hardest. A lot of these incidents coincided closely with planting. Acute poisoning where the majority of dead foragers test positive for the same pesticide are pretty hard to refute.

The chronic effects of neonics are more difficult. This can come from a less than lethal dose of dust or from pollen collected from treated plants. When the colonies are under this pressure on top of mites, viruses etc it is tough to prove what exactly killed them. Increased average winter losses here closely correlates with the widespread use of neonics. Of course correlation is not causation, but the rest of the rest of the pressures (mites, etc) were existing before this.

There is also some question as to whether neonics themselves are very effective. Here is one local farmer's thoughts:

http://www.edibletoronto.com/compon...azine/fall-2013/1075-fall-2013-neonicotinoids


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## Adrian Quiney WI

BlueDiamond, the video was for Ace in post #6.


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## mac

http://www.ted.com/talks/marla_spivak_why_bees_are_disappearing.html Marla Spivak knows bees This TED presentation is the best explanation I have heard to date. Worth checking out.


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## BeekeepingIsGood

I wonder if spring feeding might be another factor that increases the likelihood of bees getting into neonic dust. It sure seems to drive the bees crazy, searching everywhere and everything for food that doesn't exist.


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## sqkcrk

Isn't that what bees do? Search for food wherever they can find it whenever temps allow?


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## BeekeepingIsGood

In five years this is the first time I've had to do any significant amount of feeding, but I don't think my recent observations are 100% unique. Yesterday, only after I added a top feeder, they were buzzing all around me at a much greater distance than they normally would after really shaking up a hive and getting them angry, starting up orientation flights and investigating random things like my bag of smoker wood. I only looked at two frames before adding the feeders on my two hives. Didn't give them any other reason to change their behaviour.

I also keep hives on an warehouse roof. Usually I don't see any bees till I get close to the hives. When I fed last week and returned 24 hours later to top them up, I was greeted 75 meters away and two stories down from the hives with bees trying to determine if I was a flower. At the hives, they were doing orientation flights non-stop:






I watched the entrances for a long time and feel fairly confident they were not robbers. I'm pretty sure they get the signal that there's food coming in from close by and start searching for it where they normally would, outside the hive.


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## sqkcrk

I guess I haven't noticed that so much when I have fed, but you are correct. When I have fed it seems as though bees look for ways to work on other hives. But I can see where they may seem to have a "Where did that stuff come from? Where can I find more?" sort of focus. Good point.


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## BCBees

I've seen stories lately connecting HFCS to CCD. Natural honey supports a colony's immune system, but replacing it with GMO-based corn syrup just adds insult to injury, lowering their defences against the pesticide ****tail they bring in with the pollen. I'm sticking to honey food stores in the winter for now. Let's see how I do.


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## BeekeepingIsGood

The above video is from the fall.

This is the link to the report on the spring deaths.



> Samples of dead bees were collected for pesticide residue analysis along with live bees, comb with pollen and honey stores, vegetation, water, and soil
> 
> Preliminary residue results show that approximately 75% of the dead bee samples had detectable residues of neonicotinoid insecticides used to treat corn and soybeanseed
> 
> Residues of neonicotinoid insecticides were detected in samples from approximately 80% of the beekeepers for which samples have been analyzed.
> Clothianidin and/or thiamethoxam were detected in > 90% of the comb pollen samples from affected yards and were also detected in some water, soil, and comb honey samples.


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## D Coates

Detectable amounts, okay. What are the actual amounts? Are they lethal or sub-lethal? What is the lethal amount? We all have various amounts of things in detectable amounts in our systems too. Yep, we'll all die no matter what. Will any of those sub-lethal things be directly responsible for our deaths? Nope, they're sub-lethal. Combined will they contribute to our deaths? Possibly but doubtful. Until it's proven in a repeatable, scientifically accepted manner I'm going to go enjoy my life and leave the worrying and teeth gnashing to others.


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## Acebird

Sub lethal means it won't kill you now it does not mean it won't shorten your live by 10 or more years. Now in a bees life does it make a difference to a hive if the bees life is shortened by a few weeks?


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## BeeCurious

Acebird said:


> Now in a bees life does it make a difference to a hive if the bees life is shortened by a few weeks?



Really Acebird? 

You don't believe that reducing the bees lifespan by "a few weeks" would have an impact on the colony? Really? 

A few weeks in the summer would be 50% of their life.... 

A few weeks off the lives of winter bees and there's chilled brood and or a dead colony.


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## sqkcrk

Sarcasm is hard to see in written text. But that's how I read his writing that statement. Sarcastically.


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## D Coates

Prove it! Until claims or hunches can be proven, they aren't worth the powder to blow them to heck in the scientific or legal world (in the US). That's why no one has been able to legally pin this on Big Ag here. There are teams of US environmental lawyers salivating for this to gain traction and earn billions in judgments, ...but it doesn't. It can't be proven (except for dust drift exposure during improper planting). In the US it's "innocent until proven guilty." 

That's when those with that axe to grind turn to trying to influencing public perception and toss out innuendos and 1/2 truths hoping to fool the majority who swallow it as a know truth. They in turn spout it as truth and the perception spreads. (I love setting the record straight when people assume because I'm a beekeeper I buy the neonic hype.) Actual truth is secondary in this scenario, that and "guilty until proven innocent" is how Europe ended up with a 2 year exploratory ban. They are exploring it because they don't know what it will actually do, and the door is open to bring the product(s) back .


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## DPBsbees

We're not talking about people here. Remember DDT? When you're talking about poisons, it should be "guilty until proven innocent". They should have to prove that they are entirely safe BEFORE they are allowed to be used.


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## Rader Sidetrack

DPBsbees said:


> They should have to prove that they are entirely safe BEFORE they are allowed to be used.


Well, many things are poisonous in some manner. For instance, "soap" is a poison if you ingest the wrong amount. Are you proposing that soap be illegal? 

Too much *water *is not very healthy either!

:ws:

As the saying goes, "_The devil is in the details!_"

Note that _food grade mineral oil,_ has another name, i.e. _horticultural oil_. And guess what, horticultural oil is used to kill all manner of insects in agricultural settings. It will kill bees as well.


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## D Coates

DPBsbees said:


> We're not talking about people here. Remember DDT? When you're talking about poisons, it should be "guilty until proven innocent".


But it's not and the products passed the regulations they were required to. They've therefor earned "innocent until proven guilty" status. Define "entirely" safe, and for what and whom? It's an insecticide so it can't be entirely safe to everything. Watch out for the DDT claim. It's wasn't banned in India and many other countries. Heck, they're still using it today and there's been no decimation of their raptor species.


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## Acebird

D Coates said:


> Heck, they're still using it today and there's been no decimation of their raptor species.


And you can prove that.


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## BeekeepingIsGood

D Coates said:


> Detectable amounts, okay. What are the actual amounts?


From the report linked above:












D Coates said:


> Are they lethal or sub-lethal? What is the lethal amount?


Good question. How much of this stuff in your pollen/honey/soil/water would you consider safe? When it was approved, was it based on an understanding that the chemical would remain under a certain level in pollen/honey/soil/water?


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## WLC

We do know that neonics are acting as environmental contaminants. We're also learning more and more about how they're impacting bees.

Bees are considered to be both a keystone and an indicator species by many.

Dave Mendes said that Honeybees are indicators of environmental quality, and I agree.


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## Michael Palmer

Just returning today from the UK. The agricultural fields here are 25% rape. Average honey crop in the rape area is measured in hundreds of pounds, with many colonies at 300. No CCD. Why??


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## sqkcrk

Welcome Home Michael.


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## Acebird

Michael Palmer said:


> Just returning today from the UK. The agricultural fields here are 25% rape.


Just to be clear "here" is the US or UK?


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