# fermentation speed



## Vance G

I am making a mead using Lavlin EC-1118 yeast and specific gravity starting at1.100 and where it sits it is about 65 degrees. The gas check is liberating gas about fifty times a minute. This is day 3. Is this normal fermentation speed. Should I have that yeast at a warmer temperature? My first batch so I could use some advice. Thanks..


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## stajerc61

68F minnimum for proper fermentation. Lower temps will take longer to finish and have different effects on the finished product.


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## Vance G

Thankyou.


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## beemandan

Vance G said:


> The gas check is liberating gas about fifty times a minute. This is day 3.


It sounds like it's fermenting just fine to me.


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## Fl_Beak

As long as it is burping along, I think you are fine, too. If I think it is too slow, I often toss in a little yeast nutrient during the fermentation. Mead fermentation is much slower for me than beer. Even once it is done with visible fermentation, I am finding leaving it in the carboy for a month or four is a good improvement to the final product. But for your first batch- drink it up and make more.


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## Ben Brewcat

Speed depends on a lot of things, especially temperature, but also strain, nutrient levels, pH, even atmospheric pressure in the case of airlock activity. 65 to 68 is a general all-purpose temp; above there and some strains start getting their funk on.


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## nursebee

I agree that all sounds well, except for the fact that it is only a first batch. Time for the 2nd and 3rd.


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## Vance G

I snuck a thimbleful of my mead and I think the horse has diabetes! I have made fruit wine many times and it never tasted this rank! I should have gotten enough for a hydrometer reading I guess. It is still working too much to rack into a carboy I think. I am prepared to give it all the time it needs and i can see it will be no time soon.


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## Bush_84

With mead it is very important to aerate and blast it with nutrients. Some would argue that you should even cover with a cloth during the first week and aerate daily. You also need to add nutrients. It is best to break this down into 3 stages. Some at the beginning, about 1/3rd done, and again about 2/3rds done. I generally don't do the additions down to an exact science, but just try to add my nutrients in 3 different stages. This is important as honey lacks the vital nutrients for a healthy fermentation. If you do not provide the correct circumstances for a healthy fermentation, your yeast will be stressed. Stressed yeast creates fusel alcohols, resulting in a poor finished product. 

This is a sticky at homebrewtalk.com from hightest. 

http://home.comcast.net/~mzapx1/FAQ/SNAddition.pdf

Looks like they discuss nutrients in the sticky here, but there seems to be a lack of staggered additions, which IMO is essential to meads.


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## Vance G

So I am two weeks in to this fermentation. I added nutrients per recipe from The Compleat Guide to Meadmaking by Schramm. I still have fermentation going on as the fermentation lock is still letting gas out several times a minute. Should I rack it and add nutrient then?


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## Ben Brewcat

The staggered noot addition regimen is differet than Schramm's; I wouldn't keep adding. Let 'er roll and see where it goes. Over-fertilizing can lend some pretty exciting off flavors IMO.


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## Bush_84

Ken Schramm knows what he is doing. So if you followed his recipe you should be ok. You could always degass once. I wouldn't rack it until your gravity is reaching its goal.


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## Vance G

Thanks. I also was advised by the local brew shop proprietor to raise my temperature where the mead is and thoroughly shake it up to help it finish fermentation. I am beginning to see that mead makers are almost as opinionated and varying in their opinions as beekeepers are! What do you say to that? I know my mead is fermenting in temps on the low side ((66-68 degrees) but would not changing temps radically, result in negatively effecting the ecology that has developed at that temperature? I am inclined to let her be and not add variables. That way I learn something. If I change course, it's a crap shoot and I learn nothing. Is this wrong thinking or has this ground been thoroughly ploughed by others? I hope this is understandable!


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## Fl_Beak

I find that placing buckets or carboys on tile, rather than say carpet, towels, coolers, etc, lowers the temp by several degrees. from the ambient room temp. If you are straight onto tile- maybe placing something under the fermenter would give you a degree or two? Then you have the piece of mind that your temp is ok.

I still think 66+ is fine. It just may take a little longer= but you gotta set at least a bottle aside for a year anyway...

follow a recipe, take notes- eventually you'll know what you want to try and replicate or avoid


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## Vance G

I know about basement floors. It is off the floor by the water heater. If I moved it up on the main floor it would be warmer but the temp would be more variable and I don't think that would be good. I know this is a long term thing. I am going to start another batch as soon as my 71b-1122 yeast comes in that is supposed to finish much faster. The main thing is< I am having fun. I guess this takes up less room than hauling out the toy trains again.


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## n5odj

Roaming off topic, just a tad, but I discovered something helpful this year. This is about my 4th batch of mead & this time, I aerated the initial must by using a fishtank bubbler stone. I let it run for about 10 minutes. WOW ! The fermentation really took off. Mead can be notoriously slow, but this one was completely fermented in 19 days. That airlock was going crazy too. The yeast was Premier Cuvee. Temp not measured, but probably a consistent 75 degrees.

Robert


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## Vance G

I thought of that but how do you sanitize it? I guess if you bought a new pump it would probably be pretty free of wild yeast.


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## n5odj

I soaked the bubbler stone in some kmeta solution for a while before and after using. The pump was just blowing air, so I wasn't too concerned about "germs" from it. I don't believe that any must is 100% sanitary (surgically clean), but close enough.

Robert


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## nursebee

Aeration: I suspect my pouring honey and water back and forth between two 5 gallon buckets is sufficient. Some geeks love all the gadgets and gotta have more, I prefer simplicity.

Nutrients: if a mead has addition of fruit one likely has enough. For straight meads a little goes a long way, perhaps as part of a well planned starter. I do not plan well.

If a thing is fermenting it is working and I leave it alone.

Temperature: I ignore it. I have read the books, know that certain yeasts have temp ranges that work well, but the simple fact is I love the variation in the air. 

If I had a stuck fermentation, and I have, I consider and or do the following:
Repitch, generally with champagne. Consider started
Rack, this adds minimal aeration
some nutrients
put on a heating pad if in winter

I find time heals many issues with meads.


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## Acebird

I have yet to try my hand at a mead and the wife wants to keep it simple so she is reluctant to go with nutrients. she keeps telling me the egyptians made mead so how hard can it be? I know what is going to happen if at the end of a year or so we end up with a batch of battery acid. I am all for keeping it simple but I need some convincing arguments for using nutrients if they are really needed.


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## amethysta

I've heard that if you want mead that tastes good, you'll have to keep it at least six months to a year.


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## nursebee

Acebird, making mead is easy. If you do not ferment well without nutrients you can always add them later. But you will then be waiting longer.
So, if you want to make a straight mead and drink it sooner rather than later, perhaps take advice from here or read the Schramm pseudo science book on meads. Otherwise you can learn from your mistakes.
Nobody has to argue or present arguements to you, it is either true or not. Ignoring fact and experience of others is permitted.

I believe it is about the nitrogen!


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## Acebird

I suppose I could phrase it differently and not use the word arguments and say discussions. I am trying to lean from the experts and what most newbies come across in beekeeping and now mead making the experts don't agree. The question is which advice a newbie should take but first you have to get that advice.
I read in this topic about agitation, aeration. I thought oxygen was bad. Very confusing...


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## nursebee

Oxygen is essential for fermentation, for the yeast to grow: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC152411/

Once a beverage has fermented then it is bad: http://www.preservino.com/oxidation.aspx
also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_fault

so the rule of thumb is: aerate to start healthy growth of yeast then minimize exposure to oxygen once fermentation is complete.

The "advice" to read the pseudo science book by Schramm is excellent advice. He made a lot of mead, did the footwork for us. His comments on nutrients reference what the yeast suppliers say to use. So in that regard, it is simply following the directions.


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## Ben Brewcat

Exactly. Oxygenation: good at the right time. Oxidation: bad.


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## Acebird

Should it be agitated more than once at the beginning? We have a carboy of cider working and it has come to a stand still sooner than expected. I was under the impression that once you pitched the yeast you didn't want to agitate but maybe I have it wrong.


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## Barry

Take a gravity reading to find out where it's at. Guessing doesn't work too good.


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## Acebird

I got a hydrometer but how do you get it in and out of the carboy? Then what is the reading going to tell me? This is cider now, not mead.


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## Barry

Not having made cider, I'm not sure, but if you used yeast, I assume this is hard cider? One wouldn't take a gravity reading from the whole batch and risk contamination. You would always siphon off a bit into a beaker for measuring.


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## Acebird

Yes, hard cider. Then I take it what is in the graduated cylinder is discarded?


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## Acebird

Is there any harm in letting the first stage fermentation, go longer than it needs?


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## Barry

Well the cylinder isn't graduated, the hydrometer is. Yes, the brewmeister enjoys his work by drinking the sample taken and not pouring it back in the carboy. Did you just decided to start brewing one day and winged it? I'm surprised you're this far into it and don't know how to use the hydrometer for measuring your gravity and how that relates to ABV. I would suggest getting a basic book on brewing, either beer or wine, depending on which one you like. A hydrometer can tell you if your fermentation is still active or has stopped, but if you didn't take an initial reading . . .


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## Acebird

Yup, I winged it. I convinced the wife to get a hydrometer but that doesn't mean she would let me use it. She hates being scientific, I am quite the opposite. The trouble is pitching the must in a carboy didn't give me a good way to take a reading. I would like to have some answers if this experiment doesn't work so the next time we can do it right. Actually, this is the second attempt. The first time she pitched the yeast into the hot must which probably killed the yeast instantly because nothing happened. On the next shot of yeast after it cooled down it started almost instantly.

You can actually drink the sample? I thought an unfinished product would knock your block off. Isn't it going to taste like crap?


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## JohnAllen

If it tastes like crap then don't drink it but you'll never know if you don't try it. I think apple cider is yummy while still fermenting - sweet and fizzy!


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## Acebird

I used to drink it when I was a kid but we didn't do anything to it. It went hard on its own. When the wife said she wanted to make hard cider I started to laugh because I never heard of brewing it. To me this is like a dry run for making mead so some of the goofs that we alread made are behind us. I will have to get a cylinder so I can take a reading when we do the mead.

I just didn't give it a thought that you could drink a sample that was in the fermentation phase.


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## Barry

I'm hoping some of these guys that make mead and wine will step in, as I only brew beer, and cider is more in line to winemaking, but tasting the different stages of brewing/fermenting really helps one to know how a process is going. I've yet to not drink the whole vial of liquid from all the samples I've taken. When you pitch, that is the time to take a temperature reading (to comply with your yeast temps) and gravity (sugar content). Simply siphon some out of the carboy with a piece of tubing.


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## Acebird

Barry said:


> When you pitch, that is the time to take a temperature reading (to comply with your yeast temps) and gravity (sugar content).


I read that part in the book and so did she but the irish tend to be a little impatient. No worries. She won't do it again. I would like to hear from some of the brewmeisters that make mead. Do you taste the samples as you go along?


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## Ben Brewcat

Always! It takes a while to develop the experience to know what the early tastes can imply for the finished mead though. Don't despair at something you don't enjoy... it's green. You wouldn't be bummed if your ninth-grader's short story was dreary, prosaic and self-absorbed... be patient with your mead/cyser/cyder too . If you siphon, be sire to do a sterile start (never use your mouth) as described in the intro stickied thread. You can also get a couple different kinds of "thief" doodads for pulling a sanitary sample out of the fermenter. One is like a large straw: lower one end into the mead, plug the top end with a finger, lift out and drain into your hydrometer sample jar. http://morewinemaking.com/view_product/6177//Glass_Wine_Thief_-_Economy


For the slightly more daring, there is a kind that, if WELL sanitized along with the hydrometer, is essentially a long sample jar but with a valve at the bottom. When lowered below the level of the mead, it opens and allows the thief to fill. Fill until the hydrometer floats, take the reading, and then touch the filler valve against the inside of the fermenter to drain the contents back. Example. 

And if you were to tell us the recipe for the cider, or at least the fermentables, we could infer the starting gravity from it with a pretty good degree of accuracy depending on the ingredients.


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## Barry

Ben Brewcat said:


> If you siphon, be sire to do a sterile start (never use your mouth) as described in the intro stickied thread.


Hey Ben -

I know this is commonly stated, but I still do it the mouth way and haven't had any problems with it. If done right, I don't see where contamination can take place. Your thoughts please.


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## Ben Brewcat

Well, the human mouth is a festering cultivator of a number of organisms that can contaminate beverages, including and especially _lactobacilli_. I also know some folks who will gargle with listerine or 151-proof before suck-starting, but I'm too type-A . Even if one avoids getting bev in the mouth and spitting it, there's lip contact on the outside of the tubing which can lend bacteria to the flowing bev and be lowered into the receipt vessel. The contamination may not necessarily ruin a bev, but might cause a flavor to not shine or the overall impression be kinda bleh or a lot of other sub-threshold ways. To me, not worth the risk when there's such an easy alternative.


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## Barry

Ah, yes, I wouldn't recommend doing it if you were transferring the batch to another vessel. I'm talking strictly about taking a sample for the hydrometer. The mouth touches the tubing and gets the flow started, when almost filled, the tubing is pinched near the mouth end, pulled from the carboy, and the remainder allowed to empty into the vial. Tubing is then put back into the sanitizer. You can guess what type I am!


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## Acebird

Ben Brewcat said:


> And if you were to tell us the recipe for the cider, or at least the fermentables, we could infer the starting gravity from it with a pretty good degree of accuracy depending on the ingredients.


Two gallons of unpasteurized apple cider
1/2 pint raw honey (late season probably has golden rod and purple aster)
5 ml Lalvin Bourgovin RC 212 yeast
Heat cider 45 min. medium heat (no boil) add honey to combine

*pitch yeast to must when temperature is *below* 68 deg F

As I said we goofed on the pitching yeast and realized the mistake a day or two later. So we pitched another 5 ml packet into the same must.

Questions about siphoning off for racking:

Step 6 of this cider recipe:


> After 2 months the juice should be decanted off, the container washed, and the juice put back into the container. Do not use siphon hose closer than 4" from bottom of container as this is where all the sediment is resting.


Does this mean I will have to throw away 4" in the bottom of a 5 gal carboy? and is that normal for making mead?


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## Ben Brewcat

Well let's call that about .75 lbs of honey @ 36 PPG ((specific gravity) Points per Pound per Gallon), for 27 gravity points. Then you have 2 gals cider @ about 40 PPG for 80 and a total of 107. But is it a 5-gallon batch, meaning the must was diluted to a 5-gallo volume with water? That would be a starting gravity of only 1.021, for a potential alcohol of about 2.7%. If it was undiluted, 1.107 will yield a potential alcohol of a little over 14% which is more in the "typical" range. For more on these gravity reckonings, see the Intro stickied thread.

Yes racking incurs volume loss, which is part of the reason I don't subscribe to the frantic racking schedules that many recipes recommend. Let the lees settle until they're firm (compact) before racking to reduce how much you have to leave behind, especially in small-volume batches like 2 gallons.

And Barry you're completely correct; your process where the siponate is being discarded (or consumed) doesn't pose any risk to the remaining batch. My misunderstanding.


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## Acebird

Not diluted so it aught to have a little kick. How do I tell the lees are firm? Can you see it? If I can see it how far should the siphon be from the visible layer?

I was wandering if I tip the carboy sum the day before I siphon will the lees settle in the corner of the carboy so I don't loose as much of the batch?


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## Ben Brewcat

You can totally tip the carboy, but if you wait until the lees have settled they won't shift. If you do it now, and leave it that way they probably will. You can tell just by the look, but it'll be a firm, dense whitish cake on the bottom rather than the kind of interspersed fluffier lees you probably have now. It'll shrink with time as it compacts.


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## Acebird

Thanks a bunch. These little details really help.
Sorry I took the topic off track but I needed help and I knew somebody in here had the answers.


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## nursebee

Get an auto-siphon. When I use one it takes most of the good stuff and litttle of the bad stuff. Some of my bottles end up with a touch of sediment but by the time you reach the end of a mead your liver is happy for the added nutrition. I try not to disturb it once I put it in, aim for a side. At the end of transfer I just put a cutting board on the opposite side.

Picture this: Get a gallon of water, throw in some dirt and shake. It is cloudy like an active fermentation. Let it sit 5 minutes or so and it starts to clear, this is akin to a month or two into the fermentaion. Now let it sit undisturbed for a day, all of the mud is on the bottom with a barely imperceptible transition point from solid to liquid. This is like a >6 month period in the carboy. That is how you know. Time and patience are the friends of a good mead.

A local winery, educated in the chemicals of this stuff, makes the wine in the fall (Sept/Oct) and bottles in April. Home meadmakers, without advanced chemistry (I understand some of it but want a chem free drink) should wait at least as long as the pros do to bottle.


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## Acebird

Well that is what we want. My wife gets migraine's from the sulfates in wines so we only buy organic but even some of them have sulfates. The cider and mead is a way of knowing what is in the brew.


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## Barry

No problem, brew beer.


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