# Plastic Frames



## bluescorpion (Sep 6, 2012)

Hi All

I've got a curiosity question for you seasoned pro's. What are your experiences on using PLASTIC frames instead of using the normal wood and wax foundation? I'm thinking about experimenting with plastic next year.

Thanks for any input. opcorn:


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I use a lot of them as they are cheaper and Work fine. The sharp edges of the plastic frames are harder on the fingers and they do not stand up and stay in place n my extractor quite as well. You sure have less time involved in them if that is a factor.


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

The knock on plastic frames seems to be that they have many impressions and cavities in the frames that SHB can hide from and the bees cannot get to them. SHB is such a problem where I live that I am afraid to use them. If it were not for SHB, I feel sure I would.

Edit: Just reread your post and saw that you were searching for opinions of seasoned pros. I am anything but. Sorry.


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## johnbeejohn (Jun 30, 2013)

I think they are great I don't have the small hive beetles like others you should not either in Ohio 
The only problem I have is if u let them sit in the sun they warp which is my fault for letting them in the sun


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## ggileau (Feb 19, 2013)

I personally do not like them. Mine tend to make burr comb on them. I still have some but as time goes on I will phase them out. I'm sure others have had different luck


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## AAIndigo (Jun 14, 2015)

Major burr comb. I dont like them (hate them) at all and cull them out


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Not sure if weight is a concern, but you can definitely feel the additional weight with a box full of plastic frames with capped honey. 

They can be a little flimsy, and compared to wood frames are not as easy to work loose when heavily propolized together in the box. 

The nice part is that there is no assembly time, just drop them in the box and you're ready to go. Sometimes the bees can be a bit hesitant to draw out comb on the plastic frames, but if you use them at the right time in the spring they jump right on it. 

I like them, but am moving more toward foundationless wood frames. The wood frames just seem sturdier and easier to work.


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## Double_Bee (Jun 12, 2013)

AAIndigo said:


> Major burr comb. I dont like them (hate them) at all and cull them out


Exactly my experience, burr comb, they tend to weld them to the tops or bottoms of other boxes as well so some times they are near impossible to break apart.


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## johnbeejohn (Jun 30, 2013)

I coat mine with extra coats of wax don't have a problem with the burr comb I can't even imagine havING to assemble 10 let alone 500 wooden frames


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## bison (Apr 27, 2011)

I hate them. Got some a few years ago and gave them away. They feel flimsy to me, bend more than wood ones, and just don't seem right.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Hate them. Lots of burr comb, the ears easily break off, they warp in the sun, no good surface to rest your hot knife on.

The bees seem to draw them wrong far more often than plastic comb in wood frames.

I would not call myself a seasoned expert, but I am never buying them again.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

I sell as many as I can every spring with my nucs. They have numerous issues as described above.


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

I am on the hate them wagon. Besides all the things said here, they are so much worse to break apart for inspection after just a few months of the bees building burr comb on them. I have several still, but have been replacing them the last few years. I do put them in the nucs i sell when i replace them.


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## bluescorpion (Sep 6, 2012)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Not sure if weight is a concern, but you can definitely feel the additional weight with a box full of plastic frames with capped honey.
> 
> They can be a little flimsy, and compared to wood frames are not as easy to work loose when heavily propolized together in the box.
> 
> ...



I have tried foundationless wood frames and had mixed results. I tried placing starter strips of foundation in one hive but the strips fell out of two of the frames as the bees were drawing the frames out and just made a mess. I definitely like that idea but need a better way to hold the starter strips in place. The ones that stayed in place filled out really good.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Blue
I make my own frames and just cut the top bar at 45 degrees on each side making a "V" before assembly. I would swear that I saw somebody selling ones like I make. The guide doesn't fall out like this. It is my first year so take it with a grain of salt.
Cheers
gww


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## EastTnJoe (Jan 20, 2016)

I bought a bunch of plastic frames from a former beekeeper for $.10 each. Then I took a dremel and cut out the cell pattern, leaving only a 1/4" edge on all four sides, now I have foundationless frames for almost nothing. I've alternated them with drawn comb and the bees make comb just like they should. Theses frames would not do well in an extractor but the deeps are perfect for brood nest and the mediums are great for cut comb honey.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

Sorry, they're in the useless to me camp. I've seen all the above problems with them. I would rather spend the time, assemble the wood frames and know that there's not going to be a problem frame around every corner that has to be kicked to curb.
It wouldn't be so bad but for every warped frame, it totally screws the frames on either side in one way or another.


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## bluescorpion (Sep 6, 2012)

Welp, not feeling the plastic frames right now. This year has been the year for wax moths in my hood. Last year it was small hive beetle. The reason I was thinking about trying the plastic frames is mainly because I hate it when the larvae chew into my wooden frames and hive body. This mainly happens of course when a hive has flown the coop or if I sit an empty hive body full of frames off to the side till I get a chance to clean it out. The moths attack fast at night. I use paramoth for storage over the winter but can't really use it right now because I don't want to have the scent on the frames if I have to replace some frames or hive body. I figured the plastic frames would help cut down on this but sounds like it would just cause other headaches.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

I to hate them but for one reason not mention. On extraction they slide off the nail that I whole the frame on for uncapping.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Hate them. A great place for SHB to hide and they seem shorter in length that their wooden counterparts. They WILL walk their way off the frame rests all by themselves.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

johnbeejohn said:


> I can't even imagine havING to assemble 10 let alone 500 wooden frames


I'd rather assemble hundreds/thousands of wood frames than deal with 500 plastic ones. At least the el cheapo Mann Lake ones. They violate bee space and they love sticking those dang things together. The Acorn ones supposedly don't have that issue, but I've never used them.

There's about 50 plastic ones floating around in boxes. I won't cull them just to get rid of them. But they'll get grabbed to place in nucs to be sold next spring for sure.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

All plastic frames get burred between the boxes because of the thin top bars. Beespace has not been an issue on any of them I've seen other than PermaComb, but they would still burr between the boxes on it even if it didn't. This has been known for a century.

Thick Top Bars:

A quick search of 50 years among the bees turns it up on page 46. 

"When attending that same convention that very practical Canadian bee-keeper, J.B. Hall, showed me his thick top-bars, and told me that they prevented the building up of so much burr-comb between the top-bars and the sections. Although I made no immediate practical use of this knowledge, it had no little to do with my using thick top-bars afterwards. i was at that time using the Heddon slat honey-board (Fig. 6) and the use of it with the frames I then had was a boon. It kept the bottoms of the sections clean, but when it was necessary to open the brood-chamber there was found a solid mass of honey between the honey-board and the top bars. It was something of a nuisance, too, to have this extra part in the way, and I am very glad that at the present day it can be dispensed with by having top-bars 1-1/8 inch wide and 7/8 inch thick, with a space of 1/4 inch between top-bar and section. Not that there is an entire absence of burr-combs, but near enough to it so that one can get along much more comfortably than with the slat honey-board. At any rate there is no longer the killing of bees that there was every day the dauby honey-board was replaced."
--C.C. Miller, Fifty Years Among the Bees.

"Q. Do you believe that a half-inch thick brood-frame top-bar will tend to prevent the bees building burr-comb on such frames, as well as the three-quarter inch top-bar? Which kind do you use?

A. I do not believe that the one-half inch will prevent burr-
combs quite as well as the three-quarter. Mine are seven-eighths."--C.C. Miller, A Thousand Answers to Beekeeping Questions 

Thick-Top Frames
"In the early 1890's the thick-top frame was introduced to the public but some years prior to that time J.C. Hall, then of Woodstock Ontario, Canada, had been using frames with top bars 1 inch wide by 7/8 inch thick. Soon after he began using them he discovered that the tops of these frames were free from burr combs. Likewise there were no brace combs between the frames. He made his top bars thick, he said, not because of the burr or brace comb nuisance, but because he had desired to prevent their sagging. Dr. C.C. Miller soon called the attention of the beekeeping world to Hall's discovery and in a very few years the thick-top frame came to be almost universal. After the top bars were made stronger and heavier the end bars as well as the bottom bars were made thicker and wider. The natural result of all this was a stronger and more serviceable frame."--ABC XYZ of Bee Culture, page 314 35th Edition (1974)


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Perhaps its an oddity, but with my homemade 3/8's thick top bar with a wooden starter strip glued in, I haven't had a big problem with burr comb. The research people who came out to sample from my hives mentioned how little burr comb there was. Perhaps this is due bees feeling good about the type of comb they have? But I find plastic frames another matter, often glued to the frame above. 

I have also noticed that the foundationless is utilized for brood more readily than the plastic beside it. I'm relegating plastic to honey supers where they keep that space from going completely wonky.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

lharder said:


> Perhaps its an oddity, but with my homemade 3/8's thick top bar with a wooden starter strip glued in, I haven't had a big problem with burr comb. The research people who came out to sample from my hives mentioned how little burr comb there was. Perhaps this is due bees feeling good about the type of comb they have? But I find plastic frames another matter, often glued to the frame above.
> 
> I have also noticed that the foundationless is utilized for brood more readily than the plastic beside it. I'm relegating plastic to honey supers where they keep that space from going completely wonky.


Hives of mine that have a frame of foundationless have next to no burr comb. Almost universally so. Except when I have the Mann Lake plastic frames in... then they build off the top of them.


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## thesecurityeagle (Jun 21, 2016)

psm1212 said:


> The knock on plastic frames seems to be that they have many impressions and cavities in the frames that SHB can hide from and the bees cannot get to them. SHB is such a problem where I live that I am afraid to use them. If it were not for SHB, I feel sure I would.
> 
> Edit: Just reread your post and saw that you were searching for opinions of seasoned pros. I am anything but. Sorry.


I noticed the same and was considering filling the void with beeswax to seal them off. Same with wooden split lower bar, I see SHB in there and use the hive tool to clear the room.


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## pgayle (Jan 27, 2008)

When the frames are pushed together, that eliminates the beetle hiding places, at least on the top half of the frames. That only leaves the gaps in the ones at the ends. That was not really my problem with them. The most beetles I have ever seen in one place were in drawn empty combs on wax foundation in an outside position, that the bees had not filled with nectar yet. almost every cell had a beetle in it, with bees standing guard. 

I love the convenience. When it is time to rotate out old comb, I used to put the old frames in boxes in the shed and let the moths clean them. Then a pressure wash and wax recoat and they are ready to go. But I am phasing them out. 

I hate the Mann Lake plastic frames for their flimsiness and for the burr comb on the top of the thin top bar. When you have a whole box of them it can be really hard to get the boxes apart. You have to either twist, or slice with your hive tool. I envision the queen getting decapitated, although this has not happened that I know of. 

My bees are doing well on the 4.9 mm foundation, and despite the data I am sticking with it. But I am phasing out the plastic frames and going back to wood and wax. 

Mann Lake, are you listening?? Either make the top bars thicker, or sell sheets of small cell foundation to use in wood frames. You are giving yourself a bad name.


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## bluescorpion (Sep 6, 2012)

Tell me this gang. Do you think using frame spacers that cut down the number of frames in a deep from 10 to 9 helps or hurts the hives? Yes you get even spacing and this would probably help cut down on burcomb, but does this allow more room for pests to maneuver more freely? Pests like SHB and moths.


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## JasonA (Aug 29, 2014)

pgayle said:


> .... or sell sheets of small cell foundation to use in wood frames. You are giving yourself a bad name.


Mann Lake does sell small cell wax foundation. I buy mine from there. The have wired and medium brood small cell. I'd post the link but the darn firewall at work blocks Mann Lake!!!


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I hate them. Mainly because of how fragile they get with age. The ears on the top bars become very fragile and break off. In general, my bees seem to like the PF foundation, but I will never buy another all plastic frame.

I recommend wooden frames with plastic foundation.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I switched back to wood/wax a while back. The plastic was flimsy and sometimes the bees struggled with accepting them. They are quick to use and are more forgiving in the extractor. My deciding point was that they're plastic and I think we have a plastic problem in the world. Even recyclable plastic can't be recycled very much. I hate the idea of introducing more plastic especially in beekeeping. That's a personal choice, I know, but it's very important to me.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

opcorn:k: Oh boy you opened a can of worms. Here's my opinion. I hate them! Sure they are a lot easier and quicker. But, the draw backs in my opinion are not worth the extra time savings. They are flimsy feeling, the burr comb in is a big pain, It not only makes separating the boxes harder but when the bees fill it all up with honey it makes a big dripping mess. The ears are also bad about breaking off. I hate to trow away a perfectly drawn out frame just because the ears broke off. So far I've never had the ears break off a wooden frame I'm sure it happens some times but, not nearly as often. Did I mention the burr comb? LOL a full box of plastic can be quite a chore to break loose sometimes. I still have some around but, I try to only keep a couple frames in each box so they don't burr comb across the top of the whole box. JMHO


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The advantages of a plastic frame
Convenience - Take them out of the box, put them in a hive body or super and you are set to go.
Not damaged by wax worms - self-explanatory
Have more cells than a wood frame - this is because the top, bottom, and end bars are thinner

Disadvantages:
The lugs on the end are too thick for a top bee space box. With a migratory cover, it is less than 1/4 inch. It makes a burr comb factory.
Not readily accepted by the bees - must be given during a heavy flow to get decent combs
Can't be readily cleaned and re-used - high pressure spray washers and setting them in a greenhouse to get up to 120 degrees work.
They warp - Temps of 130 degrees warp them permanently, even full direct sun can warp them
They are flimsy - this goes with the territory
Extracting problems - from hot knives melting plastic to being generally slippery to work with

All things considered, I am happily getting rid of the @100 plastic frames I purchased in the last 7 years. I would readily do foundation-less with starter strips or full sheets of foundation to get good quality combs.


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## gruntworker (May 20, 2013)

bluescorpion said:


> I have tried foundationless wood frames and had mixed results. I tried placing starter strips of foundation in one hive but the strips fell out of two of the frames as the bees were drawing the frames out and just made a mess. I definitely like that idea but need a better way to hold the starter strips in place. The ones that stayed in place filled out really good.


I have been switching out to foundationless and have had great success with The Home Depot free paint stirrers. I just put two small staples and glue them in to the top groove. The bees have, so far, always build readily and straight. Every time I go into the store I pick up a few free stirrers with my purchase. Some people say to split them in half but they seem to work fine as is.


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## pgayle (Jan 27, 2008)

Just nail the wedge in sideways for a starter strip.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

tanksbees said:


> Hate them. Lots of burr comb, the ears easily break off, they warp in the sun, no good surface to rest your hot knife on.
> 
> The bees seem to draw them wrong far more often than plastic comb in wood frames.
> 
> I would not call myself a seasoned expert, but I am never buying them again.


What happened to the holder that came with that really expensive hot knife I gave you?:s


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Wow - there sure are a lot of PF "haters"! 

Me - I like them. 'Been using them for decades. 

I just did a comparison ( I have a few wood frames). The outside dimensions are virtually identical. The thin top bar (& bottom) translates to ~15% cell space, thus more honey (or brood) & more weight per filled frame. The bare frames are essentially the same weight. They do have some drawbacks, as mentioned, but I've had issues with wood frames as well.

I add my own beeswax (non contaminated) & place them on the hives during good flows. The bees can draw out a nice full box in 4-5 days. SHB has never been an issue for me.

*Any of you "haters" with undrawn plastic frames: PM me,* I'll pay a reasonable price, plus shipping. I could use another 500-1000 of them. I'd also be interested in good drawn out ones - if they haven't been subjected to Apivar, MAQS, etc..


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## SWM (Nov 17, 2009)

"I sell as many as I can every spring with my nucs. They have numerous issues as described above."

Wow, sounds like you are passing off what you consider to be inferior frames to unsuspecting buyers, probably a lot of beginners, with your nucs. Good example of why buying nucs has become a crap shoot because some are selling them as a way to get rid of frames/combs that should be culled. The word "ethics" comes to mind.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

SWM said:


> "I sell as many as I can every spring with my nucs. They have numerous issues as described above."
> 
> Wow, sounds like you are passing off what you consider to be inferior frames to unsuspecting buyers, probably a lot of beginners, with your nucs. Good example of why buying nucs has become a crap shoot because some are selling them as a way to get rid of frames/combs that should be culled. The word "ethics" comes to mind.


wow, 'One mans trash is another mans treasure' comes to mind.


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## SWM (Nov 17, 2009)

clyderoad said:


> wow, 'One mans trash is another mans treasure' comes to mind.


That's a creative way to rationalize it and further confirms my concern that this is happening. Using that logic you might as well throw in an old, worn out queen for good measure.

It was not my intention to hijack this thread so I would like to give some feedback to the OP. I've tried plastic frames but don't like them for many of the same reasons already listed. I find wooden frames to be more rigid, easier to handle and you can use whatever foundation you prefer.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I don't think of PF's as either "trash"... or "treasure". Just a convenient means of getting the job done. Like so many things about beekeeping, it's a matter of personal preference. If they don't work for _you_, get to work assembling wooden frames.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

I've found that it's just a whole lot easier to let someone else take care of the bees..what with all the yucky tools, wood, and wax. We only eat about a gallon of honey a year and I've spent enough to buy 70 or 80 gallons this year. Nailing together stuff is too much work and the risk of getting a splinter is just way too high.
AND THEN I FOUND the plastic frames and styrofoam hive bodies and supers. 

Are your sarcasm meters going off? This has been a test.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> I find wooden frames to be more rigid, easier to handle and you can use whatever foundation you prefer.

Except when it's only available as a one piece frame/foundation...


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> > I find wooden frames to be more rigid, easier to handle and you can use whatever foundation you prefer.
> 
> Except when it's only available as a one piece frame/foundation...


Nah, that only needs a bit of modification and it fits right into a wooden frame! just lose the plastic frame and its good to go!


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

All of your deplorables work well if you know how to manage them.


aunt betty said:


> I've found that it's just a whole lot easier to let someone else take care of the bees..what with all the yucky tools, wood, and wax. We only eat about a gallon of honey a year and I've spent enough to buy 70 or 80 gallons this year. Nailing together stuff is too much work and the risk of getting a splinter is just way too high.
> AND THEN I FOUND the plastic frames and styrofoam hive bodies and supers.
> 
> Are your sarcasm meters going off? This has been a test.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

SWM said:


> That's a creative way to rationalize it and further confirms my concern that this is happening. Using that logic you might as well throw in an old, worn out queen for good measure.
> 
> It was not my intention to hijack this thread so I would like to give some feedback to the OP. I've tried plastic frames but don't like them for many of the same reasons already listed. I find wooden frames to be more rigid, easier to handle and you can use whatever foundation you prefer.


Rationalize? Don't think so.
I have thousands of these PF "cull" frames and like them very much. 
In fact if you tried to sell me some of the crappily built wood frames with wax foundation and a rookie wiring job on them I see in so many hives/nucs these days I would walk away with my money in my pocket. 
One man's treasure is another man's trash.


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## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

I like them, the shs like them, but me bees do not seem to like them.

Some people use a hole saw to remove some foundation from plastic foundations. This allows the bees to make drone combs without as much wonky combs and burr comb.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Some people just rub on a little more beeswax, put them in, get them drawn out nicely (under the proper conditions), and find better things to do with their time than assembling wooden frames.

Per the OP's original querie: When I had a ~100 hive operation ( & thousands of frames), I considered them a godsend. Now that I have far fewer hives, I just consider them a convenience. Maybe you'll just have to try them and decide for yourself. Put a swarm on them, or add them to an established colony when the spring flows get cranking and I doubt you'll find wood frames that much better, especially when you take into account the time & trouble of assembling wooden-ware.


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## johnbeejohn (Jun 30, 2013)

this is 2 days after being put In a hive on July 10th I add a extra layer of wax to these 
I the picture the frame is barley drawn out enough to have brood depending on how heavy I put the wax on some have eggs 2-3 days after putting them in definitely don't have problems with them not being drawn straight with worker brood 
Next year I plan on trying some of the triple coated Frames from Nick at acorn and save myself more time not coating frames


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

I buy 4000 to 8000 per year - would not use anything else


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

It dawned on me that the "ladder comb" complaint might be related to the PL's sometimes being completely coated with beeswax? At least the ones I get are - I know they are available un-waxed. It seems that once the frames are extracted once & the top & bottoms scraped free of comb, the frames have much less ladder comb the following year. 

Maybe, maybe not... just an observation from my little corner of the world.


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