# Insulating only three sides a problem?



## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

I'm not sure anyone will really know unless a proper study has been done. You'll get a lot of "I think"s and "here's what I do". So here's what I do 

I insulate all 4 sides even though my hives do get sun. The "force" tells me that the steadiness (just slower change really) of the temp inside is more important than the daily warm-up followed by the nightly cooling off on that side. Plenty disagree w/me on that though.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

I put a piece of insulation on top. The hives that receive a lot of wind, if they are lucky, I put a piece on the wind side.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I am insulating only three sides on my grouping of nucs this winter, the south sunny side I am leaving only tar paper on it with 2" foamboard on the other three sides, bottom and top. I think insulating the south side would hinder the warmup of the hive which may cause the bees to not fly on the occasional somewhat nice day(above 40) in the winter. Even if the outside temp is too cold for the bees to fly out, at least with the sun beating on the tarpaper it can warm the hive up a bit to enable the cluster to shift towards more food if they need to. John


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## coopermaple (Aug 30, 2009)

Most of our hives get insulation on 2 sides. The sunniest 2 sides just get tar paper. Some hives may get 3 sides depending on thier location. I believe that the sun warming the tar paper may help warm inside the hive enough to permit the cluster to move. It would be interesting to monitor hive temps in several loactions throughout the winter to see if this theory holds true.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

jmgi said:


> I am insulating only three sides on my grouping of nucs this winter, the south sunny side I am leaving only tar paper on it with 2" foamboard on the other three sides, bottom and top.


I put 3/4" on mine. I assume insulating 3 sides has worked well for you in the past, correct?


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

libhart said:


> I'm not sure anyone will really know unless a proper study has been done. You'll get a lot of "I think"s and "here's what I do". So here's what I do
> 
> I insulate all 4 sides even though my hives do get sun. The "force" tells me that the steadiness (just slower change really) of the temp inside is more important than the daily warm-up followed by the nightly cooling off on that side. Plenty disagree w/me on that though.


I thought of that, but I wasn't sure which would be better. :s Hopefully things get easier after your first year!


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Splatt, actually this is the first time trying it this way, I usually only tar paper my full size hives, but with these nucs I want to do a little more to keep them warm, hope it works out. John


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Splatt. I think the trouble is that noone really "knows" what is best. The insulation versus ventilation goes all over the place on Beesource. It is an imperfect world, I assume there is a reason you have to keep your hive where it is. 
Even if there is just a couple of hours of sun a day your bees would benefit from a bit of heat that tar paper or a black wrap would offer. The hive will warm up enough to allow them to scoot over/up to another honey comb. You didn't say, and I am curious, is your hive a deep or two or more? Is it a newly established package? Was it full of stores at the start of winter? Were there a lot of bees when you last checked? These details flesh out the picture. Good luck.
Also, we like photos.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

jmgi said:


> Splatt, actually this is the first time trying it this way, I usually only tar paper my full size hives, but with these nucs I want to do a little more to keep them warm, hope it works out. John


I hope so, too. It'll be interesting what we all have to report in the Spring.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Splatt. I think the trouble is that noone really "knows" what is best. The insulation versus ventilation goes all over the place on Beesource. It is an imperfect world, I assume there is a reason you have to keep your hive where it is.
> Even if there is just a couple of hours of sun a day your bees would benefit from a bit of heat that tar paper or a black wrap would offer. Also, we like photos.


I understand. I just wanted to know what others thought and had done. 

My hive is in my side yard, about 5 feet from the house (brick). It's there for two reasons:

I have kids and my wife didn't want the hive in the back yard.
I'm a suburban commando beekeeper. That part of the yard has 7-foot fencing, ensuring that when the bees cross the property line they are overhead.

I realize that this isn't the most ideal spot (at least in the summer it gets quite a lot of sun), but it's the best I can do for now.

Here's the situation with my hive:

Started from 5 frames of bees and a laying queen the first week of July.
Increased in size rapidly. At peak I had 8 frames of brood in the bottom, plus 5 or 6 in the top, all boiling with bees (A beek I know commented "Wow! You've got a good queen!")
My hive is two deeps and a shallow, all full of stores at the start of Winter.
At the last full inspection (late October) there were still lots of bees, although somewhat less than there were in early September.
Mite count in late September was 20 total per day.


I'll post a photo tomorrow.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I was thinking on this insulating of a hive thing the other day. I wondered if it does not compare to mulching a garden. the reason to mulch a garden is to help it stay frozen through the winter.

I have heard several times that the cold is not the problem but condensation. If the hive is kept colder. it would help reduce condensation. I am a little reluctant to do anything I think might make the hive warmer than it woudl be naturally. i just don't want to cause the bees to be more active than they would be otherwise.

So far my bees have only had a hand full of days that where cold enough they did not fly. today was one of them. nasty and rainy. Nights are barely getting into freezing range.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

Daniel Y said:


> I have heard several times that the cold is not the problem but condensation. If the hive is kept colder. it would help reduce condensation. I am a little reluctant to do anything I think might make the hive warmer than it woudl be naturally. i just don't want to cause the bees to be more active than they would be otherwise.
> 
> So far my bees have only had a hand full of days that where cold enough they did not fly. today was one of them. nasty and rainy. Nights are barely getting into freezing range.


You bring up a good point, and I've thought about that, as well.

I wouldn't have worried at all if the hive were in full sun all day. The highs have been 50 or so, dropping to the mid-to-upper 20's at night. With the lack of sun I thought I'd do something to help them retain heat a little.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

Added information

For ventilation I flip the inner cover over notch side down with the screened bottom boards wide open. I put a piece of foam between the inner cover and the telescoping lid. When warm moist air rises to the inner cover from the cluster the added foam keeps the condensation from forming on the inner cover lid and falling on the bees. Instead it condensates on the sides of the hive or escapes before in condensates out the ventilation hole. Kind of like boiling a pot of water in a house with uninsulated windows. It is a guarantee that condensation will form on those windows. As for wintering nucs I push them all together and put foam on top and foam on the wind side. I have a 3/4" ventilation hole on the opposite end of the entrance on all those nucs and leave that exposed. The foam insulation that I use it mainly to keep the wind from hitting the hive bodies directly or to keep condensation from forming on the inner cover. I don't worry about keeping the hive warm in the winter, I worry about protecting it from the elements. The bees will keep themselves warm. If they don't the wintering cluster was to small and that was a problem that should of been addressed in the Fall.


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## VolunteerK9 (Aug 19, 2011)

Splatt said:


> Hopefully things get easier after your first year!


Nope....they don't. Im into my 4th and things still get complicated.


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## Joes_bees (Jul 9, 2012)

The sun can only hit two sides at a time (and the top). Meaning 1 or 2 walls are always warmer than the others. Your cluster is always dealing with a heat imbalance. I don't think the addition of insulation to 3 sides is causing a significant enough temp difference that you need to worry, the bees are going to go where the honey is stored.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

Here's that pic I promised. The exterior wall you see is the east wall of the house.

It was about 56 degrees when this was taken this afternoon; you can see some of the girls out and about.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Splatt, thanks. nice job making the insulation fit snug.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Insulating 3 sides may be an improvement. Insulating will keep the hive a little warmer at night but a little slower to warm up in the morning. The open side to the sun should warm faster, at night it should cool faster and possibly be the first condensation point. The next day the condensation would melt and drain down the side. Theory anyway.
Studies show the cluster does not heat the hive, so the whole concept of insulating in a body that is open to the outside gets a little strained anyway. In all probability insulation on the sides acts as another layer of a windbreak. The building paper heating in the sun acts as a heat sink more than as insulation.
If you think about internal thermal currents the center hole on inside covers should be on the corners not the centers. That becomes more so with an insulated cover as thermal currents should tend to actually set up more often with an insulated top.

If you wanted to get elaborate I would borrow some concepts from box solar panels. If the exposed south side had a clear cover and a space between that would act as a heater. (Think of a garden springtime starter box.)

The simplest most effective insulation is probably to put the hives in a portable garage with the door open to the south. Then the whole hive would be warmed. Concern would be the bees would fly out the door and freeze. Someday I will spend the $.

That is my over thinking of the simple


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Splatt, thanks. nice job making the insulation fit snug.


Thanks. I tossed around several ideas (including the handyman's secret weapon), but eventually figured the straps would hold up better to the elements.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

Saltybee said:


> Insulating 3 sides may be an improvement. Insulating will keep the hive a little warmer at night but a little slower to warm up in the morning. The open side to the sun should warm faster.


That's kind of what I was thinking. I guess I need one of my girls to fly up to me and tell me what they actually want!



Saltybee said:


> The simplest most effective insulation is probably to put the hives in a portable garage with the door open to the south. Then the whole hive would be warmed. Concern would be the bees would fly out the door and freeze.


I'd be worried about them flying around and pooping on everything in the garage.


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## garys520 (Jul 1, 2009)

jmgi said:


> I am insulating only three sides on my grouping of nucs this winter, the south sunny side I am leaving only tar paper on it with 2" foamboard on the other three sides, bottom and top. I think insulating the south side would hinder the warmup of the hive which may cause the bees to not fly on the occasional somewhat nice day(above 40) in the winter. Even if the outside temp is too cold for the bees to fly out, at least with the sun beating on the tarpaper it can warm the hive up a bit to enable the cluster to shift towards more food if they need to. John


I agree with this statement. Last year I used Bee Cozys on one hive, which insulated the hive 360 degrees and the other hive with tar paper. The hive with the tar paper warmed up very fast on a cold sunny morning and the hive with the Bee Cozy was cold to the touch if you slipped your hand under the insulation. On a 50 degree day It would take a long time for the bees to fly in the heavily insulated hive. I'm thinking of using the Bee Cozy to insulated the sides of the hive that don't get any sun, I'll use bungy cords to hold them.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Splatt said:


> I asked around, but none of the beeks I know insulate their hives -- unlike mine,


So why are you?:scratch:
Have you ever noticed that people put sweaters, blankets and other clothing around dogs? Those are the ones that die young. A dog sheds in the spring and grows hair in the fall. Why do you think that is? Do you think you know what is best for the honeybee?


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

I pushed all three hives tightly together and insulated the whole row with 2" on all six sides. (4 sides plus top and bottom) But left a 1" air gap between the hives and the insulation. All my covers have a 2" hole drilled in them that was then filled with a 2" metal soffit vent. For the winter I stuck a wad of tissue paper in each hole that will hopefully block air flow but let moisture escape. So far my hives are dry as can be. My theory is that the condensation will form on the insulation rather than on the hive and run out the bottom.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

A concern in a different post was an uninsulated top... the uninsulated part will be the point of condensation as it will cool the fastest. Have condensation on a side is probably not a bad thing as it should drip down the side and not on the cluster.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

As the older beekeeping books say, a hive that is strong in bees going into winter with plenty of food doesn't need to be wrapped, packed, or insulated. I agree with that, but someone will surely ask, how strong does a hive have to be? In my area, I would say that a hive that has a cluster that covers 6 or 7 deep frames is strong for winter. I'm talking about looking into a hive when the temperature is at freezing and seeing that kind of coverage of the frames, just to be clear. 

If you think that your hive has less than that quantity of bees, then doing something like adding a tarpaper wrap at the minimum can help warm the hive on those cold sunny days. I am trying something this year by only insulating three sides. My hives all face south to get the most winter sun, so I am using tarpaper only on the south side, then I am using 2" foam board on the other three sides. I also will add a piece of foamboard to the top of the outer cover. The tarpaper will allow the hive to still warm up from the sun, whereas if I insulated the south side with foam board it would not do so very well. The insulation on the three sides does nothing for preserving heat inside the hive because in reality the bees don't heat the hive, just the cluster. But what it does do is help slow down the cooling inside the hive from sudden changes in temperature outside the hive. John


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

I know may wraps make me feel better here in northen PA i don't know if they help but i had 100% last year 








Plus theres a 1in peice of insulation under the tel. cover and all my hives{14} are dry and humming just checked today


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

GLOCK, looks like a frozen white cat on top of your hive sticking out of the snow, or am I just seeing things? John


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I did three sides this year, mostly just as a wind break-south side uncovered.
I used 2" foam so I could use the telescoping covers. 










Here is what it looks like before the back side goes on.










Of course there is foam in the lid too. I make my tops deeper to accept an 1 1/2" piece of foam.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

GLOCK said:


> Plus theres a 1in peice of insulation under the tel. cover and all my hives{14} are dry and humming just checked today


It is the insulation not the wrap.


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## TheBuzz (Feb 8, 2012)

I haven't wrapped my hives but I do have a wind break with them being on one side of my picket fence. I think a wind break is more important then wrapping as wood is already a natural insulator.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

Acebird said:


> So why are you?:scratch:
> Do you think you know what is best for the honeybee?


Because my hive is in the shade most of the day, and the beeks I know have hives that are in the sun all day.

Do I know what's best for the bee? Of course not. Never claimed I did.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

jmgi said:


> GLOCK, looks like a frozen white cat on top of your hive sticking out of the snow, or am I just seeing things? John


I definitely see the cat.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

Lauri said:


> I did three sides this year, mostly just as a wind break-south side uncovered.
> I used 2" foam so I could use the telescoping covers.


Absolutely love the finish on your hives! What did you use?


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## pascal (Oct 1, 2010)

Splatt, in my location in quebec, we usually insulate 3 sides and top with foam and then wrap everything, leaving the entrance side less insulated. The bees heat the hive only if they rear brood. Insulation will leave the hive maybe a little warmer during big cold but not so much as we leave an upper entrance open in order to eliminate the excess of humidity which may (always!) condensate on top of the hive.

When I look at your picture, I see that you leave a long side not insulated, but in case of big sudden frost, it's difficult for the bees to pass around the frame in order to cluster deeper in the hive. On the short side, this is not a problem, because they can retract the swarm more easely. In windy locations, I often see lots of dead bees on the outside frames. They have been caught by the frost and was unable to join the rest of the bees which cluster maybe 1 or 2 frames deeper.
Also, they heat the hive when they need to move the cluster to reach food, at this moment insulation will help allowing them to move more easely


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Splatt, a couple of observations:

I've kept a colony in subzero temps with no wrapping at all and it thrived, with a huge earl spring population. It did have a quilt box with about 3" of shredded leaves on the top box, though. It was a 2 deep 10 frame.

I've kept bees in town "commando" as well. I faced the hive toward the 2 story house, about 18" from it. That way it was exposed to whatever radiant heat lost from the house.
When he bees oriented, they went all of the way up the house wall, and when leaving the hive, climbed quite high before crossing the fence.
Being btw the wall and the fence, they were quite well protected from wind.

My bee yard now is in quite a windy place, and I am overwintering all of my colonies as 1 story double nucs. 
I insulated the North sides of the nucs w/ 2" faom, and the east sides w/ 1".
South and east sides are wrapped in black material to stop wind and take advantage of whatever solar gain is available.

The top is insulated with 2" of foam also.
I think it is very important to insulate the top if sides are insulated.
Otherwise, the top being the coldest surface, it will be where moisture condenses.
I don't want it condensing where it can drop on the cluster.

If your bees are healthy and got plenty of pollen last summer/fall, and you keep water from condensing on the underside of the top, I don't think you have anything to worry about with your mild winter.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Splatt said:


> Absolutely love the finish on your hives! What did you use?


http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?277317-3-Coats-of-Marine-Varnish&p=885243#post885243


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

pascal said:


> I see that you leave a long side not insulated


That's the side that gets the sun (the south side). A shed, a fence, and the natural tilt of the earth keep the sun off the east side of the hive this time of year.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

Lauri said:


> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?277317-3-Coats-of-Marine-Varnish&p=885243#post885243


Ok, thanks. I've used Spar Urethane on my feeder and some supers, but not on a hive box.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

Beregondo said:


> I faced the hive toward the 2 story house, about 18" from it. That way it was exposed to whatever radiant heat lost from the house.


A beek I know does that. Unfortunately, there's an electrical box right near my hive, and to keep everything up to code I have to keep the hive at least 3 feet away.


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