# Repeated spring problems (EFB, PMS?)



## snipercsa (Apr 8, 2014)

I would include pictures but I do not have a camera to use. For the past two springs, in early spring I'll see a spotty pattern. I'll see dried larvae, some brown with trachea pattern showing. Not much odor going on (either I have a dead nose or the smell doesn't come off as very unpleasant). The spring buildup falls short of a strong populations for the main flow. I believe this is my 3rd or 4th spring with bees. 

Two summers ago I added a couple of nucs from a nearby local source that I thought was TF and "clean". I went in to that winter with 1 strong colony and 12 nucs (mix of 5 to 10 frame mediums). When spring started and by mid spring I was down to 7 total.

Last summer I added a queen (given to one of my nuc builds) and two nucs from a north Alabama TF. I went in to last winter with I think 1 colony and 11 nucs. I entered this spring with 9 nucs (last year's dearth left them shy of resources so a few ran out before I caught it). 

Both of the past two springs I finally broke down and treated with terra-pro thinking it had to be EFB. In both cases it did save most of the nucs. What I've done since then is not mix frames around. I've got one nuc that has been particularly strong so I've used her as a brood source to boost others. Her lay pattern has been solid and I use the fresh drawn brood frames to donate. I've gotten all my nucs but one in good shape. I've also removed the comb from all my spare frames. I've torched the inside of all unused boxes.

If I assume "worse" case scenario that it is EFB, now that terra is a vet prescribed product and I want to be TF anyway, what are my options? I've read about shaken swarm, using new hardware, etc. That didn't work for me last summer on one that was shook out, given undrawn foundationless frames, and treated. She still got sick this spring. Of all I've read, I can't find any TF way to beat this that doesn't involve burning everything I've got and starting with new woodenware and new bees. Not only would that be disheartening but a big (to me) financial burden. What should I do?


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

A spotty pattern in the spring is more likely EFB (>75%) than mites (<25%) with lab confirmation. 

EFB almost never has a smell, in fact it's not the EFB that smells at all, it's a secondary bacteria that sometimes can occur. And that depends on if the bees clean up the dead. 

If you treated with terra-pro and your spotty brood got better then there can be only two possibilities EFB or AFB.

EFB is hard to kick, it can stay in the comb for 1.5 years longer in beebread. If your EFB source is local that's another means of reinfection. 

A studies showed an 21% reoccurrence with OTC and 4% with shook swarm and OTC. Another study showed all EFB packages that were relocated and put on new equipment came down with EFB five weeks after install. 

Do you use/have used essential oils or products with EO?

If you follow my links you will find all kinds of information/studies some are TF...

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...se-of-AFB-HELP-Photo-ID&p=1534593#post1534593

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...Newbie-could-use-advice&p=1293636#post1293636

Also see the google book that is linked in a few of my threads, it was before antibiotics were used.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

This spring at least a quarter of my colonies have lab-test confirmed EFB, which is new to me here. I recognized it at once when I saw it three weeks ago because I had a small exposure to it in a friend's yard last summer. Afterward, extremely vigilant monitoring in my apiaryfor the rest of the season lead me me to believe that I had escaped unscathed. Apparently I was too optimistic. It's been raining a lot recently so my hives are slightly stressed (and were enormously stressed earlier by a fire in my apiary in March which killed two of them outright).

I will assess them again next week after the current rainy period ends. I plan to treat the affected colonies with tetracycline and probably do shook swarms, as well. Whether I treat all of them, I am not sure at this point. I'm not really sure how I would treat my biggest colonies which are in 10-frame deep stacks, six boxes high. The largest colonies with confirmed EFB are "just" in four or five deeps at the moment. 

I have already put strict infection controls in place with tools, gloves, clothing, and of course not moving frames or other equipment, and I've closed my apiary to visitors (again). I've also stopped teaching for the summer, as well. Partly because caring for my own bees is taking so much time, but also because I don't want to take a chance of spreading this, even if it's a remote chance.

Since I don't do honey, the antibiotic poses no issues for me. It has a 42-day waiting period after use which would pretty much knock out most of this year's production season, at least for human use. 

I am not interested in re-queening since one of my primary interests in my bees is their queen lines. 

I was already planning to cull as many combs as possible to remove any possible chemical contamination from the fire. It breaks my heart to blow off four summers of my bees' work, but I think it is for the better in the long run. But I was counting on production from some of my hitherto strongest comb-drawing colonies to get as much new comb drawn as possible. Now I am not willing to move combs from any hive to any other.

I do notice a distinct EFB smell, though it is mild and subtle. Not vile like AFB.

EFB really sucks!

Enj.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Interesting the resurgence of EFB over the last 2 years. I had not seen or heard of it in several years locally. AFB has been pretty much absent from the region as well. Brad got it this spring. Tetracycline was the medicine of choice years ago. Now AFB is resistant in many cases.


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## snipercsa (Apr 8, 2014)

Most of the yard looks to be in okay shape at the moment. Brood patterns are not terribly spotty. Populations look pretty good. There's one nuc that has just limped along regardless of feed jars and booster brood frames.

My worry is that I'll have a repeat of this again next spring and have yet another year of -very- little honey to harvest. I'm considering doing shaken swarm during our summer dearth and feed the crap out of them to see if that makes a difference. But then, I won't know until next spring. If I do this on all ~11 queens and it fails, I lose it all. If I do it on half of them, I won't know if it was successful until about March.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

It is said that 2-3 years leaving the bees totally without managements will eliminate EFB.

So what is it making the bees susceptible?

Maybe some answers are found here:

http://freethebees.ch/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Return-to-Resistance.pdf

Edit: I used the agricultural link, sorry. Maybe of interest though.

In Germany there is much talk about the "Nestduftwärme" which means the climate in an undisturbed broodnest area.
An undisturbed broodnest climate is regarded as helpful with all kinds of brood disease.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Take a sample, know what you are dealing with. Do you have an inspector to help go through them and take some samples?

If you have strong colonies, requeen from them. Susceptible stock should be requeened. Work with the strong, requeen the weak.

Here in bc we have an irradiating facility to rehabilitate suspect comb. That is on prophylactic measure that can be useful.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

lharder said:


> ...If you have strong colonies, requeen from them. Susceptible stock should be requeened. Work with the strong, requeen the weak.


If your strain of bees are so susceptible to EFB, why wouldn't you _run_ out and get resistant stock? If you need terramycin, send me a PM.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I'm going through a similar process with chalkbrood. I'm going through the apiary and requeening the chalkbrood factories. 

Most colonies, not a trace.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

My TF method of dealing with efb is to shake bees onto new or safe equipment. I then steam process the old wooden ware so it is safe to re-use. Quarantine the infected hives till dealt with.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

We had a bad case of it last year and so did a beekeeper I know. It just so happens that we both that spring introduced new queens into our bee yards. 130 queens total. We don't have data but we are pretty darn sure it was genetics as my other queens showed no signs and we both have since moved on from those queens


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

Did changing genetics solve the problem?


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Completely. I was in a rush and purchased queens instead of raising my own. The take away is that cheap queens can cost you.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Shaking infected bees in new equipment without antibiotics just moves the disease to the new equipment. That's why so many packages get EFB in the hands of new beekeepers five weeks after install. 

Requeening (an infected hive) by itself almost never works. 

The bacteria needs to be controlled first. The bees carry it around with them. The comb can hold the infection for 1.5 years. If it was picked up or spread in the local area it is a means of reinfection. 

There are environmental factors that make this disease deadly in some area and a minor nuisance in others.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Since you have already used antibiotics, why not go all the way down that road, do it thoroughly and right, until you have eliminated the disease. During the process you may find better queens to requeen with, and look at going full TF in maybe 2 years.

Even renowned TF commercial beekeeper Chris Baldwin uses antibiotics, problem in his case he has too many hives plus is exposed to too many other hives, to completely eliminate EFB. But for you, it could be done.

Not sure if you guys in the US get half moon disease? It is a disease that is almost indistinguishable from EFB except by a lab test. It is caused by the queen and goes away if the hive is requeened. First step should be a lab diagnosis so you are sure what you are dealing with, so further steps taken will be the right ones.


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## snipercsa (Apr 8, 2014)

That's the course I thought about taking. But, I do not have any antibiotics with no ~clear~ way to get a hold of any. 

I'm planning on an inspection of the yard today, but most of the hives have shown quite a bit of bearding and my last inspection a few weeks ago showed fairly strong populations and stores across the board. Short of antibotics, my plan is to load them up with plenty of stored honey/feed and pollen/pollen-sub going in to winter with the aim of them having excess come next spring. Without antibiotics and without burning everything and starting from ground up, the excess stores plan seems like the only remaining solution right now.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

In the course of this entire thread there is a total focus on unproven efb. Completely ignoring the likelihood that mites are a part of the problem. 

I realize that Flower Planter is fixated on efb…and, in my opinion, exaggerates it as the main cause of spotty brood. 
I am equally fixated on varroa. 

I won’t argue the relative merits of each of our opinions. 

You can test for both. 

If you are busy trying to address the wrong cause….you aren’t likely to get it fixed.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

snipercsa said:


> That's the course I thought about taking. But, I do not have any antibiotics with no ~clear~ way to get a hold of any.
> 
> I'm planning on an inspection of the yard today, but most of the hives have shown quite a bit of bearding and my last inspection a few weeks ago showed fairly strong populations and stores across the board. Short of antibotics, my plan is to load them up with plenty of stored honey/feed and pollen/pollen-sub going in to winter with the aim of them having excess come next spring. Without antibiotics and without burning everything and starting from ground up, the excess stores plan seems like the only remaining solution right now.


You need to identify the problem. See my threads I posted above, in almost every one there is a link to send a sample to the lab it's free! Lots of feed and pollen sub might defer EFB or it might not, it is will do nothing for mites. You don't need to burn EFB or mites. 

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=7458

I recommend you send a sample to the lab and post pictures of your open and capped brood.


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