# Wintering nucs in mediums



## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Ace,

You must have missed this on Bush's website. (I know you read it daily).

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnucs.htm


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## toekneepea (Jul 7, 2010)

I lost a single story 5-frame medium nuc, but the 2 double decker 5-frame medium nucs are still alive.

I bought these deep nucs and cut them down to medium depth, and purchased extra boxes:









I use the migratory cover as bottom boards*, and the bottom boards as top-entrances. _*The migratory cover has a 3" hole that I used for feeding when it's actually on top (it has hardware cloth stapled in). The 3" cut out was placed back in the hole for over winter (to close it down there's enough space from the pilot hole and drill bit for ventilation)._ 

There's a piece of 1" foam insulation on top of the nuc, and an over-sized piece of correx/coroplast to keep out the rain. Patio blocks or bricks are used to hold everything down, and the Nucs were pushed together for warmth.

A picture's worth a thousand words:









I added a candy-brick to the double deckers because the nucs were light going into this winter. The 5-frame starved out before I had a chance to add the bricks in December.

The white band is a 3" rim for the sugar bricks.

Cheers,
Tony P.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

Yes, I have overwintered them but I brought them into my unheated garage and fed as needed in the spring.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Charlie B said:


> Ace,
> 
> You must have missed this on Bush's website. (I know you read it daily).
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnucs.htm


No I didn't miss it but I was looking for evidence that it could be done like a regular hive without heaters, feeding, pollen subs and the like.
From the other posts it appears that the chances are better if the nucs are two stories high with multiple hives.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I have five, 5-frame medium nuc hives that I put fondant on two days ago. A couple were 3 high. They are all doubles now with an empty box over inner covers; the fondant covers the holes in the inner covers. The homasote sits on top of the empty box as "attic" insulation.


... no heaters. 

It's good to prevent starvation... IMO


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BeeCurious said:


> It's good to prevent starvation... IMO


It is best to prevent the starvation from happening in the first place IMO. So is there a volume or weight of honey that fits into a medium nuc configuration without that volume being too much for the small nucleaus to survive a winter in Upstate NY? (use to be zone 4 now upgraded to zone 5)


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Joel Klose (a member of this forum) lives near me down here in Elmira.
According to weather. com, our temps here are almost identical to yours up in Utica.

Not too long ago he made a comment in a thread on overwintering nucs here:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?263932-Wintering-in-mini-nucs&p=751630#post751630

Also a quick search online ought to get you a link to an excellent vid Mike Palmer did on the subject for the Prince William sound Beekeepers Assn.
That vid (2 parts) is long, but quite informative. Mike successfully overwinters hundreds of nucs in northern Vermont w/o heaters, etc. 
It's well worth the time to watch it.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

> It is best to prevent the starvation from happening in the first place IMO.


Does that mean that you won't feed your colony?

Will you extract the honey from your (second) dead colony for your own use?



Acebird,

Congratulations on having 3000 postings in eleven months! You have certainly been inspired by your one and on occasions, two hives.


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## tefer2 (Sep 13, 2009)

10 five frame two story medium nucs here in Kalamazoo
solid bottom board
2 boxes with bees and honey
2 inch feeder rim, with candy brick top of frames
inner cover with notch down
2 inch chunk polystyrene insulation
mig cover
5 in a row pushed together
cover on 3 sides with 2 inch polystyrene sheets
alive and kicking today


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## tefer2 (Sep 13, 2009)

toekneepea, I almost bought some last winter to cut down too. Where did the 6 5/8 cut fall in the box. At a finger joint or in between.
Just didn't want a sliver of wood on the bottom. Just got on the table saw and made some more.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

So far I'm 75% successful with 4 frame mediums on top of strong hives - I had to promote one of them to an 8 frame box last week, because it was getting too strong. My weather might be different than yours though.


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## tefer2 (Sep 13, 2009)

David, double screen or solid divider? From the look of things, I'll have to keep on my toes for bigger boxes too.


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## toekneepea (Jul 7, 2010)

tefer2 said:


> Where did the 6 5/8 cut fall in the box. At a finger joint or in between.
> Just didn't want a sliver of wood on the bottom. Just got on the table saw and made some more.


Just at a finger joint. No sliver at the bottom. Pretty sure the Deeps are 9 5/8" so it worked out to be 3" or 3 finger joints up from the bottom. At least with the Mann Lakes, can't imagine other manufacturers would be different.

My only issue with them was no hand hold on the narrow part - I didn't think much of them at the time but they do come in handy. I'll be adding a 1" bar going forward.

Tony P.


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## toekneepea (Jul 7, 2010)

David LaFerney said:


> My weather might be different than yours though.


Like politics, all beekeeping is local.

Tony P.


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## tefer2 (Sep 13, 2009)

Tony, that sounds great, now if I could only buy them at last years price! crap


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

tefer2 said:


> David, double screen or solid divider? From the look of things, I'll have to keep on my toes for bigger boxes too.


Built in double screen - I drilled some 2 1/2" holes in the bottom of the nucs and double screened them. They are sized to fit 2 to a hive. If I want them closed in the spring I sit them on something. 

The one I promoted is still on top of its hive (it's twin died) but it has a solid bottom, but It's plenty strong enough I think. I suspect that the queen went flaky and there was some drift involved in one dying and the other getting strong. Might be a feature instead of a flaw though. If a queen is failing I would just as soon that the workers move next door.


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## tefer2 (Sep 13, 2009)

David, I placed some nuc's on top of full size hives with full double screens before. The didn't like being in that sauna all winter and were dead by spring. My new method of double stacking them has worked well for me last two years. Just need to build a stand higher than the snow.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I believe in a lot of ventilation - and dry sugar.


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## tefer2 (Sep 13, 2009)

The smaller area screened in sounds like it may work better than a full size double screen board. To much moisture.
What happened to the OP?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I don't know but moisture hasn't been a problem. The main reason that I did it like that is that it's easy - and I think nucs probably need to be more closed when they are standing alone.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Beregondo said:


> According to weather. com, our temps here are almost identical to yours up in Utica.


The temps are but Utica is built on a river valley with large adjacent swamps. Although it is a far cry better comparison than Vermont where MP is. He is also a commercial breeder so I would expect him to feed and treat. I have seen the vids.

So far no one is weighing in that they don't feed. Is that because you have to because the bees cannot store enough to winter over with ten or 15 medium frames?

My dilemma is, would it be better to let a nuc that started in June naturally grow to a standard hive size to winter over or essentially steal brood from it to keep it within the five frame configuration? At the moment I can't see the logic of overwintering the smaller hive if a larger one has a better chance of survival. I can see it for a breeder but not for a back yard beek.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I have successfully wintered medium Nucs by stacking them in divided hive bodies and alternating the entrances. I wintered 10 in 2008 and only lost 1. It was one of the very bottom ones so I determined that if the stack was added to the top of a full hive it may be better... But that summer I abandoned all medium equipment and haven't tried the experiment again.


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## tefer2 (Sep 13, 2009)

The whole reason for using nucs is that they take less resources to make up. 
If you want full size hives you need to make your nucs up earlier than June. We make our winter nucs in July (unmated queen) August (mated queen) and let them build up on our fall flow.
The feeding is more of an emergency measure to combat a poor fall flow or extended winter.
When making them up that late in season, I'm sometimes pulling frames of brood out to keep them from swarming.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Could you elaborate some more? You said less resources to make up, would both start with 5 frames? You start in July and I suggested June and then you say you have to pull out brood to keep them from swarming. If I didn't do that and started earlier in June wouldn't the hive be large enough to make it through winter? I think our swarm season here is May and June so maybe I could start in May.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I have single 8 frame medium hives, and I have 4 frame medium hives (and larger hives too of course) that are all essentially nucs as far as I'm concerned. Some of them are that size because that is how large they got, and some of them are that size because I took out frames to get them down to that size so that they would have sufficient population density to suit me. You don't want to go into winter with 1 1/2 boxes of bees/stores/drawn comb do you? I don't. In cases where I removed resources some of them went to plump up other hives, and some honey/pollen frames went into the freezer. 

If all you have are big hives and one of them gets in trouble - what do you do? You would have to sacrifice one production hive to save another. A spare overwintered queen in a little nuc is like gold in early spring when a production hive has a problem. In my experience - in my area - big hives are about as likely to fail over the winter as small ones. 

Your mileage may vary.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I have come to the realization to be "sustainable" with a goal of maintaining two hives I will need to have more than two hives going through winter. You ask me questions I don't know the answer to.

My hives are big because of the idea it is better to leave honey on them them then to take the honey off and then have to give it back to them in the winter when normally it is not possible to do that. I don't think a single 8 frame medium would survive our winters. I would tend to think that a two box 8 frame medium would have trouble making it. So my whole point in starting this thread is to get a good warm and fuzzy on what would make it in upstate NY without feeding. Suppose I had a triple decker 5 frame nuc between two full size hives? Or should I really shoot for three full size hives and not bother with 5 frame boxes? My questions might only be able to be answered locally. I don't know.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Ace

Why are you limiting yourself to all medium equipment?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I read it on Michael Bush's site and it makes the most sense to me keeping the equipment all the same. The two deeps I have I will use for buying nucs because that is the only way my supplier makes them up and maybe swarm traps as another use.

If I create splits from my own hive the equipment will be interchangeable.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

If your goal is for all your equipment to be the same, why not go all deeps? Than you don't have to worry about wintering medium nucs. OSB (one size box) method doesn't have to center around mediums, you can use any size you want. And seeing as you already have some deep boxes... all deeps would seem to make the most sense to me.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I don't think a single 8 frame medium would survive our winters.


That may or may not be true, but I know that regular 5 frame nucs are overwintered in the northern states. As long as the cluster is big enough to function and they don't run out of food size probably isn't the issue. 

I feed all of my hives either sugar or candy on top of the frames because it's easy and it works. You can tell at a glance if they are using it or not, or if they need some more. If they do need some more you can take care of it very quickly, and the food almost acts as an inner cover so that the whole hive isn't exposed to the cold when you pop the top. Also there is no where that the cluster can move that it isn't in contact with the food - unlike honey frames in a great big hive. 

I understand not wanting to feed, but you really won't know what is going to work for you within your cultural practices unless you try for yourself.

And you are correct in that a 2 hive apiary doesn't have much room for error - or bad luck. 

And by the way you can install a deep nuc into a stack of two mediums and fill the rest of the space with medium frames, and by the end of the season you can rotate the deeps to the outside or above an excluder and remove them when they are broodless. Leave them out to be robbed, and you haven't lost anything - except maybe some drone comb on the bottom bars that you can sacrifice in the name of varroa IPM. If you think about it you probably won't want to keep comb from a store bought nuc anyway - as the saying goes "you don't know where that's been."


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm mostly using eight frame mediums but I use some five frame mediums. Some are two stories and some are one (depending on how they built up). I stack an empty bottom board on top of the two stories to make them the same height as the two one stories stacked up and then put foam on top and bottom and ends:

Every winter I intend to have a heater blowing warm air down the back, not so much for heat as to keep down the humidity. Every winter someone unplugs it during the subzero cold snap...

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/WinteringNucs2-2007.jpg

You can see in this picture some have a bottom board between the two boxes and some have the bottom board on top. The ones with it on top are doubles.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The photo brings up a lot of questions:

1. Did the lost of heat cause total devastation?
2. So I am clear on this there is one colony per medium box width not divided in half making two 4 framed nucs?
3. How well do you think this will work for one or two hives instead of a battery?
4. For the single box colonies should the honey stores be all on one side so the cluster moves horizontal like a top bar hive.
5. How do you create these nucs and when?
6. Depending on when, is it a constant manipulation battle?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Keeping in mind that MB is much farther south than Utica NY; I would lean more towards MP's methods over MB's given the climate differences.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If MB is in Greenwood, NB then MP is as many miles north of me as MB is south. Neither will be anything like Utica, NY. If I can understand what MB is doing I will follow his lead every time over anybody. I will also listen to everybody to see if what they do fits to what I want to do.


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## Capricorn (Apr 20, 2009)

Ace, I hear that your goal is to maintain 2 production level hives? My goal is to maintain 4 production level hives. To try and achieve that, I'm shooting for going in to winter with 4 production level hives, and 4 nucs. The idea being that if I have a bad winter, and lose 50%, then I will still have 2 production level hives, and 2 nucs. So I can be right back up to 4 production level hives, and then I'll have to make nucs during the season. Applying this to your goal, I'd work towards 2 production hives, and 2 nucs going into winter. 

Last year I started with no bees, and ended up with 4 colonies in a deep and a medium, and 3 deep nucs. I lost 3 of the larger colonies and 1 nuc. I spread the bees too thin, not enough population in the colonies I think. A few were caught with small clusters away from food during a cold snap and starved.. The nuc was doing fine but ran out of food before I could get some feed in there.

Number of hives are not static though that is for sure. I've found that my colony count fluctuates quite a bit. This year I'm wondering if I can go into winter with 4 production colonies and 8 nucs. I'd like to be able to sell 2 nucs or so in the spring time.. Currently I have leads on 2 colonies that need removed from people's yards / sheds / equipment etc.. and I can usually count on 2-3 swarm calls if I run an ad.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Capricorn said:


> Applying this to your goal, I'd work towards 2 production hives, and 2 nucs going into winter.


These are the kind I numbers I was thinking.


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## tefer2 (Sep 13, 2009)

Larry Connors wrote in one of the bee journals that you should start with 2 1/2 hives. Two full size hives and a nuc.
If you lose one you still have a way to replace it without stealing from the one that is alive.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

tefer2 said:


> Larry Connors wrote in one of the bee journals that you should start with 2 1/2 hives. Two full size hives and a nuc.
> If you lose one you still have a way to replace it without stealing from the one that is alive.


We're actually recommending this to our beginners. So many times newbee's either kill the queen inadvertently or fail to recognize redflags like laying workers, etc. You always have a queen no matter what time of year with a nuc. It's a good idea.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Charlie - are you recommending that your newbees buy all that, or do a split during their first season?


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

We're recommending two hives and to split your strongest hive to make up a nuc before winter. Keep in mind it's much easier to overwinter a nuc here than it is North. I made up a nuc last October and it exploded during the winter and now there is two brood boxes on and a honey super.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Ace, 

Checked my two overwintered nucs today. I only opened one. I have 5frame deeps stacked three hi. fed both all summer. very stoked that they are alive. the one that I opened today had a nice cluster of bees, & plenty of stores. I have candy boards inside my solar wax melter that has been nice for the six remaining hives in this yard. the solar melter keeps the candy boards warm as you can get naturally. they seemed to like the syrup that has gotten a little rain. I have found that they die in large numbers from the syrup that is cold. not so in melter...


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Acebird said:


> If MB is in Greenwood, NB then MP is as many miles north of me as MB is south. Neither will be anything like Utica, NY. If I can understand what MB is doing I will follow his lead every time over anybody. I will also listen to everybody to see if what they do fits to what I want to do.


Your logic is off... North/South isn't the only factors here... You have several large lakes, an ocean within 400 miles and a rather large Mountain range to your southeast. Your elevation is 450 ft above sea level, he is over 1000, his average snow fall is 25 inches, yours is over 75 inches. The humidity of the two locations are vastly different.

I am not saying that his methods are not good for him and his area... But we don't live in that area. Beekeeping is local.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I don't live in VT or CT either. Both of these areas are vastly different than mine. Even though VT has better soil than NY I suspect that my area is better for the bees because it is a longer foraging season. I will have to learn what works for me. I think everybody does. I don't think beekeeping is difficult if you don't have high expectations. It is when you have high expectation that it could get difficult.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Acebird said:


> I don't think beekeeping is difficult if you don't have high expectations.


You are correct, if your bees are dead they are very easy to keep  You only need a jar and some alcohol.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You could have chickens and forget the jar.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I suspect that my area is better for the bees because it is a longer foraging season.


By that rationale, the further south you go, the better off you are. 

That is not always true.



Acebird said:


> I don't think beekeeping is difficult if you don't have high expectations.


You ever see one of those moments when you notice a first or second year beekeeper making a comment that you wish you could frame for him/her and give back a few years down the road, to see if they still think it's true? I feel like this is one of those moments


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Keeping in mind that MB is much farther south than Utica NY; I would lean more towards MP's methods over MB's given the climate differences. 

Greenwood is in NE (Nebraska). That is USDA zone 5. Michael Palmer is in USDA zone 5. Utica NY is in USDA zone 5.

The winter of 2010-2011 (not this winter but last winter) we had two weeks of -27 F... most winters we get two weeks or so of subzero weather...

But I would tend towards Michael Palmer's advice because he's been overwintering nucs longer, not because of his climate, which isn't any colder.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Wow. some gems here! Summering in Texas is a lot like wintering up north, btw.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Michael Bush,

Can you explain why your use of heaters? it seems to me that having stock that survives the harshest winter is the goal. 

Ace, I think that having high expectations drives the research bus.....maybe just me. When did you start?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> But I would tend towards Michael Palmer's advice because he's been overwintering nucs longer, not because of his climate, which isn't any colder.


Of course you would, the humble man that your are. Given the choice, and I do have that privilege, I prefer to follow someone that doesn't use any chemicals in their hives. I would sooner dump the bees in the fall and buy new in the spring then treat the hive.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

lakebilly said:


> Ace, I think that having high expectations drives the research bus.....maybe just me. When did you start?


I am not a researcher. We got our first hive in June of 2009.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >Keeping in mind that MB is much farther south than Utica NY; I would lean more towards MP's methods over MB's given the climate differences.
> 
> Greenwood is in NE (Nebraska). That is USDA zone 5. Michael Palmer is in USDA zone 5. Utica NY is in USDA zone 5.


Micheal Palmer is zone 4 and Utica is right on the line of zone 5/4. That is the northern extreme of zone 5 and you are on the southern extreme of zone 5. 

A better judgment of climatic differences between the two areas is to look at the local bloom dates for something common like the dandelion for the two locations. I see about a 4-5 week difference when I search the most local zips for the two areas. In a bees life...That is a lifetime.

How many hive you running now? In your opinion, if you had to winter medium nucs successfully and your margin of error between 100% success and 100% failure was just two nucs. Do you think that the method you use would put the odds in your favor for being sustainable?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I prefer to follow someone that doesn't bomb his hives with chemicals. I would sooner dump the bees in the fall and buy new in the spring then treat the hive.


I guess you may see it that way, but, responsible use of miticides is not bombing hives w/ chemicals. Michael Palmer doesn't need me to defend him or his practices, his reputation preceeds him. As does his continued success as a beekeeper. Seems like editing or an apology to Michael Palmer is due.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

As you wish.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thank you, very nice.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Can you explain why your use of heaters? it seems to me that having stock that survives the harshest winter is the goal. 

It's those -27 F weeks that kill the nucs, not the hives. I want stock where the hives can survive that. I don't think any small cluster will. But so far someone has always unplugged it anyway...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> It's those -27 F weeks that kill the nucs, not the hives. I want stock where the hives can survive that. I don't think any small cluster will.


In my mind the only thing different between a nuc and a hive is size. In our area a double deep hive is more common than a single deep hive and I don't know if anyone is trying to overwinter nucs. So the adage that "cold doesn't kill bees moisture does" assumes the cluster is large enough. If you were to attempt wintering a single deep in zone 5 it seems to me that you have a juggling match between the size of the cluster and the available food. Logic tells me that there is absolutely no way of overwintering a nuc in zone 5 without feeding. And or you have to do something to prevent the small cluster from freezing.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

'...not a researcher'? 
You don't "research" info about beekeeping? What is the purpose of this post? Maybe I need one of your dictionaries. 
I started in May 09, & it's been a perpetual searching, & researching because I have high expectations that I will have a positive, productive, profitable experience. I can't afford to go on what I think I know now.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Given Texas winters, non-existent then suddenly below freezing, and given that my friend whose 4 frames made it through until our last sudden freeze, would it be too crazy if I said I was going to cover my hive for deep freezes the same way I cover my garden? Anchored blankets or anchored pond underlayment (very dense black blanket) for the duration, removed when the weather breaks? It is extremely unusual for us to have a deep freeze last over 3 days. The one that nailed his bees was 2 days. 

Planning is wonderful, losing bees at the end of winter, not so wonderful, and I'd rather keep the bees alive than achieve perfection and expect them to survive.

Gypsi


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

Well I can't say what works yet, but I can tell you my plan for wintering medium nucs this year. Since I'm using narrow frames I can fit 11 in a box or for my nucs I can fit 5 to a side plus a divider to make it a double nuc. Depending on how my bees build-up this year I will probably make splits toward the mid-end of June. (If it gets later I'll probably buy queens). My hope then is that I can get them 2-3 stories tall by fall (10-15 frames) and place candy boards on top. I will probably have to build some 5frame medium supers for the added stories, otherwise I'd have to use a queen excluder to keep them separated when I manipulate the nucs. I haven't decided if I'll put them over my other colonies yet, but my hope is with the side-by side colonies they will help each other somewhat with warmth and by making the nucs narrower I can hopefully avoid having the smaller clusters lose contact with their food. Here's hoping.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

If one side dies does that do in the other because the dead one can't generate any heat?


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

Hopefully not, but I would insulate them as well. The goal would be an increased chance when both are alive and hopefully a slightly earlier start since they would be warmer earlier if both are alive. I'm not counting on the extra heat, just hoping for it. Also I have a lot of comb that needs to be drawn and everywhere I've read has said that nuc draw comb the fastest (other than natural swarms anyway).


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Last year I put a groove in a box so I could slip a divider board in the middle and make two chambers but I never used it as such. After the discussion in this thread I am not sure I ever will use it for four frame dual chambers. I think it makes more sense for me to just keep full size hives.


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