# A true chemical free



## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

100% chemical free may be difficult (if you include feed in the chemical category).
I am treatment free (starting year 3), the only thing I have used is sugar feed. Most of my hives would have not made it the first year without it. However my season will be much shorter than yours and if the weather doesn't cooperate it can be ugly getting hives to start. I do not see the point in starving bees if the cause is out of their control.

With that caveat getting the bees a good start, selecting good genetics and some people believe small cell seems to be the basis for going treatment free. I personally have a mix of foundation and natural comb, and am moving into all natural comb and trying small cell in the center of the brood nest this year. So far I have only lost one hive, and that was due to a late summer queen failure. I should have combined the hive but tried to get them the raise their own queen. It did not work.


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## Gibbus (Apr 22, 2009)

I haven't gone chemical free as much as I just dont use them (unless you consider powdered sugar a chemical. [Edit]) and I dont feed unless I have to. So far, pretty good results - excluding that first year. Just be careful on the foundationless. I do it, for the most part, but you _MUST_ give them a guide as to where to draw the comb (popsicle stick or a 1" strip of cereal box works for me), and kind of monitor them in the begining to ensure they're drawing straight. It helps to stick the foundationless frames in between drawn frames, so they cant go sideways.
And they will if you let them (hence the monitoring in the begining)


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

Yes I am going to get the combs drawn out first on foundations and
then start fading the foundation frames out. I don't want to run into 
not getting the news started. I have also read to do two foundationless frames
in the center working out and then up. Should I just start with the
five frames and put foundationless ones in first, or should I get them started
on foundations and then phase them out? Thanks


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

I would put the foundationless frames in the brood nest. FFBBFBBBFF. Or the like and than rotate the foundationless frames into the center as they draw out the first ones you put in.
That is what I do when starting hive from nucs. Just make sure the guides you put in are well attached. I had some collapse (I did not glue them which will not happen again).


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I'm not only chemical free, but treatment-free (as the name of the forum would suggest) and beyond actually.

My advice is to multiply as quickly as possible to get as many hives as possible so you limit your chances of losing all of them at one time. Forget honey, forget everything but building more hives. I'm testing out a couple methods right now as to how best to increase as rapidly as possible. I have 29 new queens in mating nucs right now. I recommend the Ben Harden Method of queen rearing and using queen castles to turn those new queens in to new nucs.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

We use powdered sugar only, in our area there is seldom a reason to feed the bees.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I think you need to get down to small cell to really increase your bees ability to deal with mites. Going foundationless is a good way to get started in that direction, that's what I use. But according to the small cell experts, you need to get down close to 4.9 cells to make a real impact on mites, foundationless usually only gets you around 5.1 on the first try, so you need to regress them further by culling out the first generation comb in the brood nest and letting them redraw new comb which should be closer to 4.9 the second time, there is the possibility that it may take a third regression to get what you want. So, what do you do when you cull out the first generation combs, well what I would do is remove the combs as the brood hatches out and replace them with new foundationless frames. The combs you remove can be used for extracted honey storage instead of brood from now on. You might want to mark the tops of the frames so you know what generation comb you have in that particular frame, just to keep everything straight. Small cell is only important in the brood chamber, bees normally make larger cells in the honey storage area. Hope this helps. John


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## Benthic (May 1, 2011)

If the OP's bees are coming from Don at Dixie Bee Supply, I believe they will already be "small cell" when he gets them.

Brian


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

Thanks for the info. That does help. Another questions is I am going to have a deep brood box and all mediums above that. When I want them to draw out new comb in an empty box how exactly would you do it? After I get a few it should be easier but how should I start? I was thinking of going ahead and taking two medium frames and put them in the deep box after I have them drawn out, saving the two deeps to put in later and have them draw them out. Would this work? I am wondering about bee space the would be comprimised on the bottom or is that even a worry? Thanks. Dan


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

That's right, Fatbeeman has all small cell I think, so you already will be regressed. Are you using just one deep for brood and mediums for honey? Are you going to use a queen excluder? I wouldn't put medium frames in a deep box just to get them drawn out, it could cause some comb problems with the shorter frames, I would just put on the mediums as they are and they will get drawn. John


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

Yes I was going to use one deep for the brood box and go for all mediums from there. I was going to go without the queen excluder and let them go as natural as possible. Would it be ok to use one deep and a medium for the brood or should I go ahead and use two deeps and then go with the mediums?


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

I should mention I am using eight frame hives.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> I'm not only chemical free, but treatment-free . . . and beyond actually.


And what exactly is "beyond" treatment free?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

t:It means I do not utilize any methods which assist the bees in dealing with disease but which are not considered treatments by forum definition, for instance systematic splitting, varroa trapping with drone brood, or screened bottom boards.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

beecrazy101, I use all mediums for brood and honey, don't want to deal with lifting deeps anymore, they can get real heavy. Since you already have a deep I would add a medium for more brood space, alot of people do it that way. With the deep sitting on the bottom board there is hardly any reason that you will have to lift that one off. John


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I wasn't aware those things were not considered treatments by forum definition. Makes more sense now.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

There is a forum definition to avoid arguments, but I'm not sure how many people read it. It was created about a year ago as a group effort among the denizens of this forum.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

I was aware that it exists somewhere, but haven't read it myself.

Although, I'm not sure creating a forum definition has quieted down the discussion on the topic. I am glad some type of definition exists though. My least favorite part about this site is bickering over definitions (what the definition of "treatment free" is, what the definition of "is" is).


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

Well back on topic. I am going to do the deep on bottom and then expand it all with mediums. That sounds good to me. So when I do go to the mediums I just put empty frames in there and let them draw? If they start going sideways what to do then? Is there a good website I can go to that has illustrations on how to dealing with that problem? I can read all day but I want to make sure I know exactly what and how to deal. Thanks. Dan


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

beecrazy101,

When are you planning on having "true chemical free bees"?

There may be an "elephant in room" that's being ignored...


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

I was wanting to have them completely frameless by the end of this season.
I may have to feed them a little but don't want to if I can avoid it.
Sugar and brood builder or syn. Pollen have chemicals in them. 
What is your take? Thanks. Dan


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

beecrazy101, you need to put some kind of a comb guide in the top bar of the frame to give the bees something to follow so you get straight comb. I use grooved top bar frames, so I just cut strips of wood 1/8" x 3/4" x 16 1/2" and glue them into the grooves. They always seem to follow it just about perfectly when drawing comb. You really need to keep an eye on them at first to make sure they get started out right, check them every couple days if you can. John


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

It depends on your definition of 'chemicals.' All matter is technically made of chemicals.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> It depends on your definition of 'chemicals.'


:doh: . . . not again . . .


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

Thanks john. I am going to use that or popsickle sticks. Definitely going to glue them. Yes technically everything is a chemical. I am going for the natural beekeeping letting the bees do what the bees do. I am going cypress hives with no paint. Going to get them to go with foundationless frames. No queen excluder. No treatments. No sugar or pollen substitute. I am not going to.starve my bees by no means just want them to do it as naturally as possible just like if they were building in tree a tree.


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

And technically u can say that the glue is a chemical.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Specialkayme said:


> :doh: . . . not again . . .


No one is forcing you to read. How about you take the day off.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I bought some of Don's bees my first year too...

Just know that some of what Don does, or has done wouldn't be considered chemical free.

I would have concentrated on getting some good 4.9 foundation drawn out before moving on to foundationless. My work schedule and the distance to some of my hives made "baby sitting" bee frames impractical.

The only treatment (besides sugar dusting) I ever used was thymol in the fall feeding. That was in the fall of '08 and '09. Don has used thymol and or fgmo fogging at some time.

I think it has already been suggested ... get some nuc equipment.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> How about you take the day off.


Wow Sol. Take it easy.


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

Thanks BeeCurious. I have two nucs which I had for splits. So you are saying to go ahead with Dons bees with foundations and when I split go ahead and start with foundations and fade them out to foundationless. Get good small cells and go from there. I am going to be putting them right behind my house in my deer food plot which is going to be planted year around.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

beecrazy101, if you are against using glue you could melt beeswax and pour it into the grooves on the top bars and stick the comb guide strips into that to hold it. John


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

beecrazy101 said:


> So I am going for a true chemical free hive.
> I was wondering who has gone totally chemical free and what suggestions u could
> give me. Thanks


We've had good luck by using and making queens from stock that shows mite tolerance/mite resistance.
This is an elegant and effective component to being _totally chemical free_, _and treatment free_.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

jmgi said:


> ...if you are against using glue you could melt beeswax and pour it into the grooves on the top bars and stick the comb guide strips into that...


I've found that, with my equipment @ least, it works really well to put a 1/16"-1/8" thick strip of 3/4" wood (left over from milling my own top bars) into a center groove on the bars that's at least 1/4" deep, then drive several brads though the top-bar, pinning the "guide" into place. It should be pretty easy to use that method with the "wedge" in a Lang. frame, holds the guide in as tightly as just about any glue (I had a couple problems with waxed-in guides falling out in hot weather), but the only artificial substance used is the steel in the brads.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If I may, there is no "true chemical free", there is only ones' own personal standard. Keep your bees as best you can and don't spend a lot of time worrying what others call something.


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

There may not be true chemical free how about natural? I am not going to use treatments nor feed if I can help it. It may take a year to get my bees where I want them to bee, but I am going to get them there. My preferred care is to let the bees do what the bees do. Don't get obsessed by technicality, nor by definition. The weakening of bees natural immune is the intro of every type of chemical one for this and one for that. Just let them live like they have for thousands of years. They know how to take care of themselves just like we know how to take care of ourselves. I'm not going to try to be organic just no chemicals are going to be intro into my hives by me.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Not to argue symantics too much, but "natural" would be leave alone beekeeping to me. Buy bees and throw them ina box and let them naturally do what they will do. Or, just enjoy bee trees.


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

I posted for the response of some help. Thanks to all for the good advise. I will post more and hope to get good advise from good beekeepers. Thanks again. Dan


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Dan, as a treatment free beekeeper myself, I do not really consider myself to be chemical free, as I will occasionally feed syrup, and HBH. One concern though, what are you going to do about the small hive beetle, and how does that fit into your plan to be chemical free?
Regards,
Steven


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

StevenG said:


> What are you going to do about the small hive beetle, and how does that fit into your plan to be chemical free?


Nematodes will eat the SHB larvae in the ground when they pupate;
"Squishing the buggers" is pretty "chemical free;"
SHB traps with a little natural oil (olive, corn, soy, canola, etc.) to drown them in would prob. work within most definitions.

...it's slightly ot, but those would be my 1st 3 thoughts.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

There was a discussion a while back about whether or not beetle traps were treatments or not and I don't think we came to any consensus. I don't think they are, but I do believe the focus should be on bees that can deal with the problem themselves.


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## a+blessed+life (Feb 16, 2011)

I just started reading this treatment free forum. It is just the information I wanted. I have had bees for 4 yrs and haven't used any treatments/chemicals. It was a rough beginning-hive losses. I came into the spring with 4 strong hives. I was given a hive by a friend--he has not treated or fed these bees for 6 years. No messing with them, except to harvest honey. It's a big, strong hive. We also got 2 swarms from bee trees. We gave one swarm a frame of honey and a frame of brood. The second swarm got foundation, no feed/sugar syrup. Three weeks later the swarm with only foundation got it's first super (actually both swarms did). I hope to continue in this vein--don't want "welfare bees". Have decided not to feed sugar syrup anymore --survival of the fittest around here. Hope it works.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

You might want to reconsider....for instance, in a dearth, will you simply let them starve, instead of feeding them? Seems like they'd be of more value alive, the following spring. There are many instances where feeding is most beneficial, esp. when making splits and encouraging rapid build up. Or when they've had a rough winter, and are on the brink of starvation in late winter/early spring. 

Please don't misunderstand, I mean no disrespect. I've just learned, when it comes to bees, never say never.
Regards,
Steven


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

I will admit to feeding new packages for about 12 weeks. I also feed very small swarms for about the same time 12 weeks.

After that, they are on their own. No treatments ever for the last 10 yrs. I do rotate old combs out and replace them every 3-5 years. Some foundation some foundationless. No treatments, means nothing. 

As for suggestions: Plant a dozen or so of each of the following plants around your area. The bees preferentially forage on them whenever they are blooming.

Rosemary -- many varieties so that the overall bloom is longer
Mexican sage
russian sage
Italian Oregano
Greek Oregano
Lavendars -- French, english & spanish especially lavender dentata
Other fragrant herbs.

Regards -- Fuzzy


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Is planting non-native species of plants to forage on considered a treatment?


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## buzz abbott (Mar 6, 2012)

just a treat me thinks.


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

would it matter if you planted native forage? Its still creating nectar for the bees to use. Weather it is native or not. Who knows what your neighbors have. Treatment chemical free is using chemicals to treat your bees which you think is helping, but is it? Bees have done what bees have done for many 1000's of years. So I say let them do what they do. I have to admit to I went ahead and fed them to start so they can draw the comb since I am foundationless.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Treatment specifics are listed in the rules.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Thanks Solomon. I did check the rules and planting non-native forage is not specifically mentioned in the list so I will feel comfortable doing it at my treatment free yard.


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## a+blessed+life (Feb 16, 2011)

StevenG,
I guess you're right--it's best to never say never!


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## snakespm (May 11, 2012)

As far as the feeding comments go, couldn't you keep a decent stockpile of honey in a jar somewhere and feed it back to them if needed? Granted *I* would rather eat the honey, but if truly chemical free is the goal it is one alternative.


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

I am going to try to keep the honey in the combs and frames just freezing it and when they need it I am going to give them a frame or two, but right now these are my first hives so I am having to give them sugar water. I am though keeping it to a Max of 8 oz. a day and about once a week I skip a day.


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

I have noticed SHB here and there. When I see a few I will just smash them with my fingers. The bees seem to be keeping them to a small number. I usely see them on the top of the jar I use to feed them, and hardly any in the hive when I do my inspections.


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## Riki (Jan 31, 2007)

I've been reading this thread and I'd like to suggest something about feeding. It's one that I've already read here and in other forums. Why don't leave a full super to your bees year round? 

I"ve started doing this 3 or 4 years ago, and my bees haven't needed any assistance since then. They've been always strong enough to cope with dearths or excessive rain or "cold". By cold I mean slight frosts or more than a week raining or below 10º C, which used to have a huge impact on my africanized colonies before I started to let them with at least one super above the broodnest.

Hope this could help some of you.

Henrique


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Great in theory but last year we suffered a record breaking drought, hives that at the end July had 3 full supers of honey where nearly empty by Oct, so I HAD to mountain camp and that only saved one hive. Don't get me wrong, like many I only feed in emergency and that was one. But aside from the occasional catastrophe I think your plan is a sound one. As far as SHB traps I do not have a problem with them since the bees do not have access to the oil.


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## danmcm (May 23, 2012)

I have read several people say natural and they don't want to feed the bees cause it is a treatment... In a tree eighteen feet off the ground the natural bee one wouldn't be in this country or exposed to parasites from multiple foreign countries but more to the point they wouldn't need feeding cause they wouldnt be robbed of suppers each year... If they are hungry I say feed your stealing their food later in the year, you hope.

Daniel 
Maryville tn


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

Most new hives need to, and have to be fed to survive the winter, unless they are started on a long great flow. In my area the major flow is over or will be in a couple of weeks, as it is in most of the southeast. As far as chemicals go that is up to you. Dead starved bees don't require chemicals.


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## kwest (May 16, 2009)

I am the same way Solomon. I do nothing other than split when I want to and feed a little sugar water when I need to and I keep the sugar at a minimum


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