# requeening with2 day old queen cells



## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

baybees
You need look no further than New Zealand.See my posting under pests and diseases earlier in the week.The method has been used exstensivly in NZ by a beekeeper with the number of hives you wish to achieve.You may be interested in the way the cell raiser is set up for this method.This photo is of 2 day cells ready for introduction,no queenless period is required for introduction.

http://tinyurl.com/3k589 

Ignore the carry cell pad.I will send you a private message of who to contact in New Zealand.The family has practiced this method for about 60 years.


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## honytradr2005 (Oct 1, 2005)

Bob,

Please send me the contact in New Zealand also. Very interested in using this method for expansion this year. Will be raising own queens and expanding from 15 back to 150-200 hives


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## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

honytradr2005
This is an excellent commercial method of raising queens and so simple,minimising equiptment required and option should the weather be unfavourable at time of introduction.The contact will be extreamily busy at this time removing the honey crop.I will send his contact details,also willing to pass on the full details of the set up for this method.You may be interested in a unique method for 2 queen hives practiced for a similar period also in New Zealand.


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Is any special handling required besides being careful with 2 day old queen cells?


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

<also willing to pass on the full details of the set up for this method.You may be interested in a unique method for 2 queen hives practiced for a similar period also in New Zealand.>

I would be interested in this info also. Thanks.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I too would be interested in the info. So perhaps Bob R. you could post it on this forum.

Thanks in advance.

Jean-Marc


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## Todd Zeiner (Jun 15, 2004)

Me too! Thanks


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Me three!


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## thorbue (Dec 22, 2005)

Me four!

[ February 06, 2006, 02:58 AM: Message edited by: thorbue ]


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## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

Me five


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## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

Will run through a live set up and add to the photo gallery as we go.It is very late summer in New Zealand and our out yard hives are ready for honey removal,then we will be ready to split.Will use this single full depth brood box strong hive for the donor bees,pollen and honey to setup the 2 day cell raiser.

http://tinyurl.com/7ark7

Will get on with the set up to add to the gallery.The queen in this hive is unmarked so will reduce the bee numbers if necessary to make her easy to find and mark.As it is midday most of the field bees will be out in the field.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

i'm interested also Bob...

[ February 05, 2006, 07:08 PM: Message edited by: TwT ]


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## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

The interest in 2 day cells has galvanised me into action taking some pics along the way in today's set up and adding them to the same url

http://tinyurl.com/7ark7 

Many queens are lost every year at introduction time due to a second queen going undetected in a hive.The same goes for cell raising and finishing hives that can result in failure with queen cell raising.

The two day old cell system has been in use in New Zealand for around 60 years.A beekeeping family that practices the system was reported in the 1993 Spring edition of the New Zealand Beekeeper and Quote "from that small beginning came an empire of some 17000 hives".Family members use the same system today.Their system is based around shaking the bees from 9 frames of brood into a full depth screened bottom box from a selected breeder hive on an out apiary after first eliminating the queen.A frame each of honey,pollen and brood with lots of young lava and eggs being placed into the box before the shake.The lid closed and returned to base for grafting,then two day later the bees and cells are loaded on the truck to requeen hives at other out apiaries.The bees are recycled and the gear used again within a few days.The system eliminates the common starter and finisher hives and reduces gear to a bare minimum.If the weather takes a turn for the worse on day 2 the cells are carried over and used as 10 day cells.

Today's set up is a variation of theirs where the shook swarm is prepared,grafted,used on site or transported to other apiaries as required at 2 or 10 days from grafting.Because the queen was not located in today's set up the bees in the swarm box are all field bees only and queenless.

It's not commonly known that field bees can revert to their juvenile duties if the need arises.I will check the donor hive in the morning for it's queen now it is less it's field bees.There are several options that one can take.

Will describe the set up and options in stages so all can follow.There will be some surprises along the way and may cause some discussion.

[ February 08, 2006, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Bob Russell ]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Are the two day old cells introduced to queenright colonies to requeen them?

>It's not commonly known that field bees can revert to their juvenile duties if the need arises.

Jay Smith was saying it (and publishing it) back in the 20's in "Queen Rearing Simplified".


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## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

>Are the two day old cells introduced to queenright colonies to requeen them?

In the New Zealand method I am about to describe, the colony queen is first killed and the two day old cell is introduced immediately without any protection or queenless period.However intoducing protected 10 day old cells in commercial hives without looking for the queen is practiced with acceptable results in New Zealand.As two day old cells are not damaged (but readily repaired) by the bees and mimic natural superceedure I would expect even better results,do need to stay on track within reason to describe the method that has been used for decades here in NZ.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

just curious BOB, but wouldn't a two day old cell be EXTREMELY fragile in regards to temperature and movement?


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## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

>just curious BOB, but wouldn't a two day old cell be EXTREMELY fragile in regards to temperature and movement?

As with all facets of queen raising one needs to avoid extream temperatures and exposure to direct sunlight.

The principles when handling the cell bars for 2 day cells is no different to conventional cell raising,don't shake the bees off for inspection,do not drop or jolt the cell raiser box.

The 2 day cell system has its own built in air conditioning system when transporting to sites (the bees) for temperature and ventilation control.

Many beekeepers have had their 10 day cells cooked due to direct sunlight on their caricell incubator during transport to their sites.

The answer to the question is no.Will describe the system later today.


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## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

This is a run down on the way that generations of the same commercial beekeeping family in New Zealand have requeened hives using 2 day old cells that has remained unchanged for the last 60 years and is still used today.Why do they use 2 day old cells?.The simple answer is their fore fathers did it before them.It's more convenient,less gear needed,3 day turnover of cell raising equipment,the cells are easier to handle and can be visibly checked,two day old cells are tough and can take a fair bit of knocking around compared to 10 day old cells.If they get a bump you can check to see if the grub is still there.The system used takes very little time to get the cell raiser ready.All the worker bees look after the cells as they drive around the apiaries.If it's raining on the scheduled introduction day,the cells can be carried on and used as 10 day cells.It only stands to reason that if a whole hive is used to raise one cell you will get a better quality queen on average than a hive that raises 40 cells (though not scientifically tested or proven)With 10 day cells you don't always get good results where as at 2 days you can select the best and cull the rest.With 10 day cells it is more difficult to pick out the best.Two day cells have the advantage of the queen coming into lay a week later than a 10 day cell.Advantage can be taken of this complete brood break for varroa control.Two day cells are not suitable for very weak splits,only used for stronger divisions and requeening.Ten day old cells are raised the same way with this method and kept a week longer before introduction.This is how they raise them.They nail a full mesh screen to the bottom of a full depth brood box for ventilation,add suitable feet for ground clearance.A large sack that overhanges all sides of the box and overhanging in front allowing it to be rolled up to create a gap for bee entry/exit.At the apiary after the queen has been eliminated from a selected breeder hive,one frame of honey,a frame of pollen and a frame with plenty of young lava and eggs is placed in the cell raiser box.Nine brood frames of bees are shaken into the cell raiser box,covered with a sack,lid fitted,loaded onto truck and returned to home base.The hive the donor bees were shaken from is closed up and allowed to raise their own cells as a bonus for use should there be a shortage of cells on requeening day.If the cell raiser bars were not fitted before shaking the bees in at the apiary they tip the bees out on the ground when they get back to base,fit the cell racks,roll up front of sack to create bee entry/exit and fit lid.Next day the cell bars, and frame of breeder lava are removed and cell cups grafted,return breeder frame and cell racks back to cell raiser box,feed if required and fit lid.The following day a check is made on the number of cells that have been accepted and recorded on the lid to assist planning.The next day (day 2) the sack is unrolled,lid fitted to retain bees,cell raiser loaded onto the back of truck and taken to the apiary to requeen hives.The honey crop would have been removed 4 days earlier and a queen excluder fitted at that time between the brood boxes making it a simple operation to locate the queen in the brood box with eggs on requeening day,eliminate her,snap off a 2 day old cell from the bar and insert directly between the top bars and close the hive.Just to recap.Graft cells say on Monday and introduce to the hives to be requeened on the Wednesday.If the weather is unsuitable just carry the cells on and use as 10 day cells.The photo gallery of yesterdays set up is a variation of the above method that I trialled during the New Zealand varroa movement control period for onsite cell raising and requeening with 2 day old cells.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

thanks for the full (blow by blow) discription bob.

it is still a bit difficult for me to believe that you could transport two day old cells down the road (at least on the type of roads that tecumseh travels).


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## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

>it is still a bit difficult for me to believe that you could transport two day old cells down the road (at least on the type of roads that tecumseh travels).

This family would encounter such roads in NZ with their geographic spread of hives over hundreds of miles and no doubt some roads in the back blocks comparable to tecumseh.Corrugated,metal and full of pot holes and full of ruts.Their simple answer is if you find a cell that the grub has fallen out - tough,just select another one,they always raise more than required to cover for this and culling at introduction.Their fore fathers would have had bone shaker trucks and all metal roads in their days.

Two day old cells can be transported any way up,upside down if you so wish as long as they are inserted the normal way when introducing to the hive being requeened.


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## Bob Russell (Sep 9, 2003)

This is a snippet from a add that appeared on our New Zealand list this morning.

Queen Cells and Caged Virgins Queens for sale

"Woodlands Apiary Ltd is now offering queen cells and virgins queens for sale from their self contained queen production unit. Orders are now being taken for Autumn Requeening.

Prices:
Cells - $5.00 + GST and freight return for incubators
Caged Virgins - $15.00 + GST and freight

Four Framed Nucs for sale
A limited number of Nucs are available for sale in both Autumn or Spring"

Two day old cells or transporting of eggs is not mentioned in the above add.Another option with 2 day old cells is to take them through to caged virgin queens and introduce to bald brood nucs.The incubators the 10 day old queen cells are transported around New Zealand in are of the thermal hot water type.Thats another topic,just to show that options are unlimited.

[ February 08, 2006, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Bob Russell ]


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

Yes Bob, thanks a lot for pursuing this. It's quite interesting.

>it is still a bit difficult for me to believe that you could transport two day old cells

I don't find this particularly hard to believe, I can easily imagine a grub floating in a viscous pool of royal jelly with all that surface tension being quite durable. I'd expect queens in the early pupal stages to be more susceptable to bumps and jarring. Likewise, very late stage queen cells where the queen is essentially fully formed are supposedly easily handled without damage. Over heating is the problem I've heard about most often.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

my yankee bud george sezs:
Likewise, very late stage queen cells where the queen is essentially fully formed are supposedly easily handled without damage.

tecumseh replies:
not from what I understand. at the later stages of development if the queen drops in the capped cell (written reports suggest that even loud thunder may accomplish this) then the cell is ruined. also a uncapped cell would obviously be subject to greater external environmental influence.

actually it seems to me that a 9 day old cell has a seven day head start on a 2 day old cell so the net effect is that the 2 day old cell is at least one week behind. I can appreciate the 2 day old cell methods in regards to accessing remote location and the labor, transportation time, and equipment requirements. which is to say you are not camped out in the boonies for an extra week waiting for queen cells to ripen before use....


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