# 3rd Generation Beek Calls It Quits After Huge Losses He Attributes to Neonics and CCD



## BigDawg (Apr 21, 2013)

Interview with 3rd generation beek Jim Doan who is finally giving up and selling his farm after years of heavy losses he attributes to neonics and their role in CCD:

http://www.bouldercountybeekeepers....n-forced-out-of-business-by-pesticide-losses/


----------



## reidflys (Jan 14, 2011)

Once a beekeeper always a beekeeper,
Jim sorry to see your problems. Thats some hard losses to take concurrently.


----------



## Coffee_Bee (Feb 3, 2013)

Don't get too teary eyed, he said he was getting out 7 years ago. On the government subsidy wagon big time.
One article has him saying there was nothing he could do to save his bees because of neonics, them shows him holding a drone with Deformed Wing Virus >>>> evidence of a high mite load.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I wondered when someone would Post a Thread about Jim's situation. Thanks BigDawg. A good interview. A tragedy for Jim and his family.

Coffe Bee, when you have invested your whole life and the well being of your family on keeping bees as Jim, his parents, and his Grandparents have you will do what you need to do to stay above water. It is easy enough for those of us who have not lived in Jim's, and Ed and Judy Doan's skin to look on them w/ a critical eye. It costs us as individuals next to nothing to be compassionate.


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

While I am sorry for his loss, I can't help but feel he was being used to push an agenda. The article, interview, pop-ups in the video, and sponsors are all clearly very anti-neonic. Fine, they are at least honest about their bias. 

However they are claiming his losses are clearly from Neo-nics. Where's the proof? Who bought all of his assets? Someone else sees opportunity where he obviously sees none. 

Just because you are a multi-generational business does not mean you automatically succeed. I am part of a 3rd generation business (non bee related). Business has changed dramatically since the 50's and we have continually adjusted to those changes. You either adjust to challenges and have the fire in your belly to succeed or plod along without changing, eventually milking the business to death. I've watched this time and time again and invariably they blame it on something other than their inability to adjust to industry changes as they exit the industry.


----------



## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

This multigenerational argument makes me nauseous. Just because a family has been in a business for decades does not mean the next generation has the backbone or ambition to keep the business. going. I have watched multigenerational farms go down the tube all my life because dad and grandad retired and the lazy 3rd genration ran the farm into the ground. I do not know anything about the Doans. I do know their are successful bee operations out there, some in very heavy neonic use areas. All it takes is one lazy year of not treating varroa and the multigenerational bee business is gone. One more thing about the multigenerational farms that I have witnessed go down. None of them admitted it was their poor judgment that caused the bankrupcy. It was always someone elses fault. One of the farms I speak of was the family I come from, and it was pure stupidity that caused it. My uncle had farmed for more that 50 years, and one year without any crop sunk the ship.
Dave


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

It is sad to see *ANY* beekeeper call it quits with the situation we are facing. The loss of the bees and the other "background" pollinators could cause more than the immediate loss of the approximately 1/3 of our food supply - it could instigate a "domino effect" and topple most of the food web due to the sudden loss of too many species.

This scenario, which I often call "Reverse Malthusian" - the food supply crumbling under the population, would likely not be very orderly, nor very pleasant. The Earth's 8 billion humans could be reduced to 1.5 billion in fairly short order, and I would expect a good degree of violence in determining who gets the last of the food.

If Beesource readers have noticed my tendency to promote Instrumental Insemination ("I.I.") for the purpose of selective breeding desirable traits, the above scenario is my reason! We need all the methods out there making LOTS of bees, ESPECIALLY *GOOD* BEES!!!

True, adaptation is important, true each generation lives in different times. Sometimes the stupidity is the neighboring farmer spraying poisons in the daytime, sometimes it's new pesticides and/or fungicides, sometimes it's me not having my queen yard palletized and ready to move at a moment's notice, other times it's acts of randomness, God, or what have you?

I'm reminded of some lines from a Robert W. Service poem, 
" ...and each passing day, that quiet clay seemed to heavier and heavier grow,
but on, I went, though the dogs were spent, and the grub was getting low,
and the trail was bad, and I felt half-mad, but I swore I would not give in..."

I have had severe setbacks in each of my first 5 years as a beekeeper, but nonetheless have gotten to the point of getting financed to build a commercial queen rearing and nucleus colony sales business. I acknowledge my own faults, and dig in and keep swinging hard, but I am not loaded with a family of children to feed, nor a lot of existing bills as others might be. Now, as I get set to purchase land, put up a workshop, buy and/or build a lot of equipment, this situation changes, and my resolve gets as hard as Clancy of the Mounted Police (another Service poem). 

The Doan's exit is indeed disturbing. My instincts tell me that the answers lie in: IPM; genetics & I.I.; Organic Farm-Only Zoning; never taking more than half your bees on the road; never keeping all your bees in one place; making the best hives, frames, tops, and pallet bases you can for your bees to live in; and educating the world about the challenges facing bees. Most of this requires EFFORT. Many a new beekeeper is allergic to EFFORT, always asking for an easier way. I worry for their bees.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I have never worked bees w/ Jim Doan, but, I believe I know him well enough to accurately assume that he has looked at all of the possible solutions to his problems. Though I don't know why he didn't seek other places to Summer his bees. Jim's part of the State is heavily farmed for produce, grapes, corn, and soybeans. Maybe things would be different had his bees been somewhere else. I don't know.

Jim has grown up w/ bees and has been on his own for some time now. So, I wouldn't characterize him as taking over from the previous generation and letting things go down hill or out of control.

I don't know how anyone else can know what Jim doesn't know about what has caused his operation to suffer in the way it has. It is all a matter of belief, not hard fact knowledge.


----------



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

It is really sad that experienced beekeeper leave the field. I am sure that Jim did everything possible to keep bees. It is easy to blame on person who fail - not nice! To me, three generation of beekeepers in the family mean a lot. People need to realize, that there is (?) a problem with the bees and it needs to be addressed soon. Denying the problem (as often I saw on beesource) could not help bees. I am really sorry for Jim Doan loss of his bees.


----------



## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

kilocharlie said:


> ...
> -Organic Farm-Only Zoning;
> -never taking more than half your bees on the road;
> -never keeping all your bees in one place;
> ...


I think, it is really nice approach, especially organic farm zoning. May be we should have "organic-bee zoning" as well? No Monsanto/Bayer 20-mile fly zone?


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> I don't know how anyone else can know what Jim doesn't know about what has caused his operation to suffer in the way it has. It is all a matter of belief, not hard fact knowledge.


Here, here! We are all entitled to our beliefs. The article though spins his beekeeping demise being caused by neo-nics as hard fact knowledge. This has yet to be proven but that gets in the way of beliefs being considered as valid as hard fact knowledge. That's a great way to start a lynch mob.


----------



## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I don't know Jim, nor do I know any details of his operation or problems.

Imagine you are a banker, and a beekeeper says, "my bees have been killed by pesticide exposure that I didn't cause, and I have no way to measure. Can I borrow some $$$ to purchase some more bees and keep them in the same places that had so much pesticides that it just killed the bees that I had? Oh look...those darn pesticides....my bees died again."
...don't you have questions like:
"If the locations you had your bees in had enough pesticides to kill your bees, why did you think placing the newly purchased bees in the same place would succeed?"

"What did you do to protect MY investment in YOUR bees after you became aware that there was enough pesticides in THEIR environment to kill them?"

"Why didn't you expect these newly purchased bees to end up with the same lethal pesticide exposure as your dead bees? Why didn't you protect my investment?"

deknow


----------



## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

listening to a bit of the interview.

What he is calling the first signs was bees coming off of almonds (2007) and not raising queens well/at all. I'm not sure of data wrt imidacloprid and this phenomenon (or if there is any), but it sounds like the results they have been getting from fungicide contaminated almond pollen.

deknow


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

cerezha said:


> May be we should have "organic-bee zoning" as well? No Monsanto/Bayer 20-mile fly zone?


As soon as you (or someone of like mind) buy the ground to do that on you've got it. When enough money can be made selling "No Monsanto/Bayer 20-mile fly zone" product to cover the purchased land you've got a viable business model.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Take this for what its worth as I only listened to about the first 20 minutes but didn't he say the first sign of problems were lots of dead bees in the entrances in the fall as be was about to move them? Fall pesticide exposure is unusual. That sounds more like virus to me. Also the claim that his mite levels were always at 0 to 3 sounds to me a bit unbelievable unless you are using lots of miticides which, of course, begs a lot more questions. As a 3rd generation beekeeper myself I can sure feel his pain and don't mean to completely dismiss Jim's analysis. I do, though, feel that this interview is somewhat lacking in objectivity.


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Beekeeping is hard, stressful work. At times it is heartbreaking. People burn out. There is no shame in this. The thing to do is move on, find something less stressful, less overwhelming, and allow oneself to heal. In time maybe keeping bees will be attractive again. Maybe not. Maybe the new enterprise will be more uplifting. Either way, we only get one go-round in this life so we should spend it doing whatever brings us satisfaction and nobody should knock us for it, or second-guess us, or judge us for our choices. Instead we should just wish them well.

JMO


Rusty


----------



## beeman2009 (Aug 23, 2012)

You know, after reading these post, several things become clear; losses of this kind are tragic regardless of the cause, there is definitely a pesticide problem & everyone will always have their opinions on every matter. I'm not saying that's wrong, but isn't analyzing this beeks problems NOW, after the fact, a waste of time? Just my thoughts which I am positive some of you will take issue with. :lookout:


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

People who are analyzing Jim's problems now are like those who were doing so before. No one seems to know for certain what the cause was.

I wonder who bought his outfit?


----------



## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Fully agreed, but to listen the the interview or read the article you'd think it's a clear slam dunk Neo-nic poisoning case when in fact that's not been proven. This was down right propaganda if you weren't thinking critically and swallowed it hook line and sinker.

Someone bought the outfit, and whomever did didn't think the neo-nic issue was serious enough to not buy the "poisoned" equipment. I'm sorry for Jim's loss but I believe he's being used to push an agenda that's low on facts but high on emotions.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I believe that the system has failed us all. The New York State Dept. of Environmental Conservation refused to do its job. Had they we would have some idea what may have killed Jim's bees. Or what didn't. Now we will never know.


----------



## BigDawg (Apr 21, 2013)

In other words: "Yes Ma'am, we know you were sexually assaulted, but, why were you in a bar in a seedy part of town late at night dressed in skimpy clothes? What did you expect to happen?"

Blaming the victim doesn't cut it. 



deknow said:


> I don't know Jim, nor do I know any details of his operation or problems.
> 
> Imagine you are a banker, and a beekeeper says, "my bees have been killed by pesticide exposure that I didn't cause, and I have no way to measure. Can I borrow some $$$ to purchase some more bees and keep them in the same places that had so much pesticides that it just killed the bees that I had? Oh look...those darn pesticides....my bees died again."
> ...don't you have questions like:
> ...


----------



## BigDawg (Apr 21, 2013)

I don't think it's a waste of time at all. We need to understand how and why these things keep happening so we can take steps to make sure they don't happen again. If we know their is a "pesticide problem" shouldn't something be done about it?




beeman2009 said:


> You know, after reading these post, several things become clear; losses of this kind are tragic regardless of the cause, there is definitely a pesticide problem & everyone will always have their opinions on every matter. I'm not saying that's wrong, but isn't analyzing this beeks problems NOW, after the fact, a waste of time? Just my thoughts which I am positive some of you will take issue with. :lookout:


----------



## beeman2009 (Aug 23, 2012)

BigDawg,

Agreed! We do need to understand these types of problems. As to the pesticide problem, All the beekeepers in the world don't have enough money to " out bid " the chemical giants. Very , very sad, but very TRUE. I guess what I'm saying is, as usual, it all boils down to money. That's the real tragedy.


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

cerezha said:


> I think, it is really nice approach, especially organic farm zoning. May be we should have "organic-bee zoning" as well? No Monsanto/Bayer 20-mile fly zone?


+1 Sergey!
I should have added 50% foundationless Phase-in after 2 years (more is Okay!)


----------



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> The New York State Dept. of Environmental Conservation refused to do its job. Had they we would have some idea what may have killed Jim's bees. Or what didn't. Now we will never know.


please explain how the DEC didn't do its job? Also needing explaining would be how come all the beeks that don't move there hives around the country are surviving just fine in N.Y.
As a matter of fact it's getting harder and harder to get bee yards down here due to the # of beeks increasing there hive numbers. Something doesn't make sense to me, but then again many things confuse me lately.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mike, according to Jim, he called the DEC to come out to see his dead or dying hives and to see if they would take samples and figure out what was killing them. I think that's their job. Supposedly, I wasn't there, so this is what I heard from Jim, they came the first time and, I believe, took samples. He talks about those samples in his interview. They didn't come out again and didn't test the samples.

THis is all hearsay, as they say, and from the aggrieved party, so who knows how accurate this is. Maybe it's just another example of beekeeping being the stepchild of Agriculture, the biggest industry in NY State. And, maybe, DEC is swamped w/ work on other things, so Jim's case was low on the totem pole. They just hadn't gotten to it in a timely fashion. I don't know. You'll have to ask Jim. I imagine the Doans will still go to the State Meetings.


----------



## Coffee_Bee (Feb 3, 2013)

"Beekeeping being the stepchild of Agriculture" - that's because of these antics. Where is the proof? Samples were taken and were inconclusive. Why is it only Mr. Doan with all these calamities in NY? You'd think he had a pesticide tanker truck following him from state to state.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Coffee_Bee said:


> Why is it only Mr. Doan with all these calamities in NY?


Not a new question. Asked it myself.


----------



## JStinson (Mar 30, 2013)

It scares the mess out of me when people assume that something causes something without hard evidence to prove it. Usually it's emotionally driven "Monsanto is the devil" type rhetoric. That's what leads to legislation which is at best ineffective and at worst down right dangerous.

Here's some research on neo-nics that probably hasn't gotten too much attention:

"The previous research has been cited by scientists, environmentalists and policy-makers as evidence of the future impact of these pesticides on honeybees. It is likely that the research was instrumental in the French government's recent decision to ban the use of thiamethoxam, a neonicotinoid that is the active ingredient of Cruiser OSR, a pesticide produced by the Swiss company Syngenta.

However, the new paper argues that the calculations made in the research were flawed because they failed to reflect the rate at which honeybee colonies recover from losing individuals."

http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=5fd2b1aa990e63193af2a573d&id=50571836af&e=771dfa6e48


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well writ J.


----------



## BigDawg (Apr 21, 2013)

Quite interesting that the article's author (Dr. James Cresswell from University of Exeter ) lists on his bio page that he is currently being funded by Syngenta, one of the world's largest producers of neonics.....

http://biosciences.exeter.ac.uk/staff/index.php?web_id=james_cresswell&tab=research



JStinson said:


> It scares the mess out of me when people assume that something causes something without hard evidence to prove it. Usually it's emotionally driven "Monsanto is the devil" type rhetoric. That's what leads to legislation which is at best ineffective and at worst down right dangerous.
> 
> Here's some research on neo-nics that probably hasn't gotten too much attention:
> 
> ...


----------



## JStinson (Mar 30, 2013)

> Quite interesting that the article's author (Dr. James Cresswell from University of Exeter ) lists on his bio page that he is currently being funded by Syngenta, one of the world's largest producers of neonics.....


I can agree that there's a conflict of interest there. However, Dr. Cresswell says himself that pesticides can be harmful to bees:

"I am definitely not saying that pesticides are harmless to honeybees, but I think everyone wants to make decisions based on sound evidence -- and our research shows that the effects of thiamethoxam are not as severe as first thought."

The facts are not in on CCD. It's difficult for me to assume that neonics cause colony collapse when there are 20 posts a month on Beesource which say "hive just collapsed, can't figure out why." When in fact the beekeeper never did a mite check, never checked winter stores, let the bees freeze, let the hive get taken over by hive beetles (or wax moths), or set his bees where pesticide spraying was to take place. 

Nobody is saying that neonics are harmless to bees. The question to be answered is this: to what extent are neonics harmful to bees?

I do not believe that neonics can be the magic bullet when there are so many other threats to bees.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If anyone wondered what Jim will do now that he is a sideliner I see he will be in Medina,OH as part of Bee Cultures "Keepin' Em Alive and Gettin' Em There" Day.

I thought it interesting that 3 of the 14 photos in the add featured semi load beehive spills.


----------

