# electric heat for the hive



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I really think you should do what you are asking about. Doing so could be quite enlightening. I don't know why it hasn't been done before.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Just got this up last week!

http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/electric-heating-of-honey-bee-hives/


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Perhaps a more sustainable solution would be to focus on getting queens that will overwinter better.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

"Although we now and again have to put up with exceptionally severe winters even here in the south-west, we do not provide our colonies with any additional protection. We know that cold, even severe cold, does not harm colonies that are in good health. Indeed, cold seems to have a decided beneficial effect on bees."--Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey, Brother Adam 

"Nothing has been said of providing warmth to the colonies, by wrapping or packing hives or otherwise, and rightly so. If not properly done, wrapping or packing can be disastrous, creating what amounts to a damp tomb for the colony" --The How-To-Do-It book of Beekeeping, Richard Taylor 

My main interest in using a heater is to get nucs through the winter. Hives can take care of themselves. But heat can easily be overdone and counterproductive.

I've been putting a heater with a thermostat down the back of the nucs to help get them through the subzero spells but someone always manages to unplug it...

The gap down the middle in the back is where the heater is:

http://bushfarms.com/images/Winteringnucs1-2007.jpg

Then I insulate:

http://bushfarms.com/images/WinteringNucs2-2007.jpg

I've gone from syrup to feed the nucs:

http://bushfarms.com/images/OverwinteringNucs1.jpg

To dry sugar:
http://bushfarms.com/images/SugarFeedingFrame.jpg
http://bushfarms.com/images/SugarFeedingSide.jpg
http://bushfarms.com/images/SugarFeeding4.jpg

A terrarium heater has worked well for queen banks and the like.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

WiredForStereo said:


> Perhaps a more sustainable solution would be to focus on getting queens that will overwinter better.


A voice of reason.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Maybe building a small shed to get them out of the elements would be better than buying a heater and the cost of electricity? Not sure how much it would cost to maintain a heater throughout the winter or build a shed, but maybe in the long run it'd be better just to make a small bee hut of sorts. Something to consider anyways.


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## pokerman11 (Feb 9, 2009)

For me I lost 5 out of my 9 hives. This winter was especially hard, but worse we never had a day that was above freezing for an extended period. My dead-outs looked like they were cold starved, dead on the frame but unable to move to the next frame or even the upper box full of capped honey.

I’m thinking that perhaps turning on some heat once and a while (not full time) would help. Also 15watts is so small it really is pennies a day.

My other options are to alter my box design. I’m just running standard 10-frame two box with SBB (closed for winter) inner, telescoping covers. Then with popsicle sticks on top of the inner for air flow, hive slanted forward slightly to drain, hardware cloth mouse guards, and staple the outside of the boxes with a sheet of black tar paper (not over the top or bottom board), to get a bit more warmth from sun and wind protection.

Most of my hives that dead-out were swarm rescues that had overwintered here at least twice. Now the points about better bees for winter is valid, but at these % of losses I can’t stay in beekeeping. Just looking for ways to keep my bees alive.


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Won't comment on whether it is a good idea or not. However, if you are serious then think of this. 
One of the oblong, screwbase, old fashioned christmas bulbs is 7 watts. The red ones will put off the most infra red. 

Might be enough to let the bees move around a bit, but they will eat more stores !!


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

>Might be enough to let the bees move around a bit, but they will eat more stores !! 

According to this study bees consume less at around 40°

http://www.capabees.com/main/files/pdf/winteringpdf.pdf

"WORDS OF WISDOM - A hive’s metabolic rate is lowest when temperatures are 5-10ºC. This is why beekeepers who winter bees indoors maintain their buildings at 5ºC: the bees use the least amount of honey at this temperature."


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

This article is a must-read for those interested in bee thermodynamics. How relevant it currently is, or how that applies to artifical heat... The article is old, but the science, to me, was most interesting.

http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/the-thermology-of-wintering-honey-bee-colonies/ by Charles Owens


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

We have had god aweful cold temps in missouri this year. In fact for the first few weeks in feb we were like 5 degrees on average colder. Which doesn't sound like a lot, but over the course of a winter and you are measuring the average temp all day long it is. My bees are the strongest I have ever seen them in late feb early march. So in other words I am another vote for good queens and healthy hives. BTW my hives are foundationless and treatment free.

Rod Weakley
Sullivan, MO


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

pokerman11: I have already wintered a hive this year for about four months with electric heat, and so far it has been successful. This was a weak colony living on five frames that are in bad shape, with little or no stores. I placed a hand built plexi-glas inner cover on top with a plastic 6x10 feed box over the oval hole taped down, cut a lid into the top of the box to feed them through. I then ordered Mega Bee patties from Dadant to feed them. Cutting the patties into strips I can place them into the feed box without exposing the bees to harsh weather, and I can inspect them at anytime through the plexi-glas. A shallow super is surrounding all of this, and on top of the feed box I placed a heating pad set on low with the controller outside, then insulation on top of the pad and finally the outer cover. I only turn the pad on when it is 40 deg. or less, the bees come up through the hole into the warm box and feed, and they even circle around the edge of the hole and fan heat down into the hive. They are alive and well, and no condensation has ever formed inside the hive. next year I plan to place the pad on the bottom board, close the opening down to an inch or two, to allow bees and power cord to pass through. It works very well, I have a living hive as a testimony.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

rweakley said:


> We have had god aweful cold temps in missouri this year. In fact for the first few weeks in feb we were like 5 degrees on average colder. Which doesn't sound like a lot, but over the course of a winter and you are measuring the average temp all day long it is. My bees are the strongest I have ever seen them in late feb early march. So in other words I am another vote for good queens and healthy hives. BTW my hives are foundationless and treatment free.
> 
> Rod Weakley
> Sullivan, MO


OMG not 5 degrees! XD It got down to -30 F a couple of times here. I know it's all relative.


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## tedw200 (Mar 4, 2009)

Did anyone try a aquarium heater, with a low setting, and placing it at the bottom of the hive ?


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## KeyBeeper (Jun 7, 2009)

We'll be bottle feeding and burping them all before you know it - wait, we do bottle feed!


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

tedw200 said:


> Did anyone try a aquarium heater, with a low setting, and placing it at the bottom of the hive ?


2 points, I've never seen an aquarium heater with a thermostat setting below the sixties. Second, dry firing one is almost certain to break it within minutes.


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## pokerman11 (Feb 9, 2009)

In my geographic area it is not just cold, it is wet. I live next to a swamp so that don’t help. I’ve lived in Minnesota, and while the temperature is lower there, the damp cold with no sun we get here to me is worse. From what I’ve read wet is more dangerous to bees.

I know the points about natural beekeeping and such. Personally most of my bees are swarm rescue. The past two years I’ve only taken limited honey to ensure ample stores for winter. I’m using the strongest hives eggs for the queen nucs. I’m doing what I can, but I’m only one very small beekeeper and learning.

My dilemma is that I know keeping bees is by the very fact not natural. Bee’s don’t live in boxes, but in trees. Also bees like many domestic animals have been genetically modified over the ages, what we have is not the original bee. I also know that my local genetic sample is very small. I work with local feral stock as much as I can as I see that as the best way find superior bees for my specific geographic conditions.

With that said I think it is reasonable for me to explore ways to improve the survivor rate of the stock I do have. There are ways to determine strong from weak hives, and I don’t feel I need to let nature kill them during abnormally difficult winters as the ultimate litmus test. 

I’m looking at ways to improve winter survivor-ability, and open to ideas and now exploring heat as a way to reduce humity and winter kill. Weak hives get requeened from the stronger ones, and that is the method I’ve set up for myself. But if everything dies, then well there really is no point to this process, and I should just order some bees from Georgia, feed and treat the hell out of them, take all their honey in the fall, repeat in the spring.

Side note: One thing I would do is to encourage people on this forum to have a bit more compassion. As an example imagine a farmer who raises sheep just lost a high% of his heard to a bad winter. Your off the cuff response to him is “Raise Better Sheep Next Time”.

Think of the work, money, time and economic loss not to mention emotional attachment to the animals that farmer may have to his stock. While it may be true that the farmer needs better sheep, I suspect most people would be more tactful in their response.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

As a many year sheep farmer you touched a nerve...

I am using heat for my nucs this year. I have them in a 2" styrofoam enclosure with a 40° heat tape under them. I have top entrances on the nucs and a 3/4" ventilation hole at the bottom of the nucs. I think the circulating heat takes the moisture out of the hives. In any case mine appear pretty dry with no condensation noticeable anywhere. I got my idea from this site:
http://www.mbbeekeeping.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=59

However, mine are 5 frame nucs. So far 100% survival. However, these nucs are headed up with Carniolan queens from survivor colonies which probably helps with the survivability [all my other Carni hives are surviving while I have 100% loss on all other hives].


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

pokerman11 said:


> With that said I think it is reasonable for me to explore ways to improve the survivor rate of the stock I do have....
> 
> ...But if everything dies, then well there really is no point to this process, and I should just order some bees from Georgia, feed and treat the hell out of them, take all their honey in the fall, repeat in the spring.
> 
> ...


If you're heating them, you're not improving anything, you're coddling them, you're weakening the genetics, or at best, stringing them along until such time as the power goes out then you're hosed anyway.

If nothing dies, then there's no "survivor" anything. The gene pool turns into a mud puddle.

Perhaps since his sheep DID die, and he WILL have to replace them, MAYBE he should think about buying quality sheep that have wool and can keep themselves warm, instead of wasting precious money farting around with gimmicks which will only fail at some point leaving his naked sheep to freeze in the cold wet wind. Have you thought about that?

Do you think those of us who have undertaken the discipline of letting bees die to create the survivor stock you BOUGHT don't feel the pain every time we find a dead hive? Do you think it's easy to not do anything as we watch hives dwindle and die? But don't you think we do this for a reason? Do you really think our hearts are hard toward the bees we've been caring for, for years? I'm not most people, thankyouverymuch.


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

> OMG not 5 degrees! XD It got down to -30 F a couple of times here. I know it's all relative.


 ya ya ya but thats a dry cold


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

WiredForStereo said:


> Perhaps a more sustainable solution would be to focus on getting queens that will overwinter better.


There was a great response on a thread here a few years back. It really spoke to me.. and speaks to this thought above. I use it in a class we teach on Spring Management which includes asking yourself about hive loss. 

"Some beekeepers here lay all of the blame to the weather pattern. But I always ask them, if the weather pattern killed or caused hardship on that colony, why didn’t it kill or cause hardship to that one? or that one over there? Are they not experiencing the same weather?" (modified from post by Joe/naturebee on beesource.com)


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I certainly agree about better queens. However, even the best queen and her hive will not survive a July or August swarm. So, when we split hives in July and feed them and baby them through the winter we are not doing "natural" beekeeping. that's why I have no problem helping my nucs through the winter with heat tapes. I also note that queens that survive the winters up here in a nuc [heated or not] have a much better chance of survival the next winter.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

camero7 said:


> I also note that queens that survive the winters up here in a nuc [heated or not] have a much better chance of survival the next winter.


Do you have any evidence for this? Specifically the [heated or not] part? If they survive one winter, they will survive another (likely). Completely obvious. But this serves to offer no credence whatsoever to the idea that helping them survive with heat will do anything toward helping them survive without. And that's the key point. At some point you're going to lose your heat. This like treatments only serves as another nifty crutch to keep bees alive which have no business being such. 

Practice the art of increase, keep the good ones, let the mediocre ones go. You will become a better beekeeper, and your bees will evolve rather than devolve.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Glad you're such an artist down there where winters are mild. Me, I'll just try to keep them alive and grow my yards.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Before you get snarky, perhaps you should check some actual facts. 

You know those things they talk about on the news called Arctic Air Masses?

Your record low for the month of February (-24) is exactly the same as ours.

Our record low for January is -23. Yours is -13.

So howabout discussing this honorably instead of tossing sarcastic insults. Howabout we talk about bees.


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## JRH (Dec 30, 2010)

WiredForStereo said:


> ... Your record low for the month of February (-24) is exactly the same as ours ... Our record low for January is -23. Yours is -13.


The average temperature is a much more meaningful statistic in this context than a record low that comes along every few decades. Have a look at these two sites for a meaningful comparison between the temperatures in the writers' home states.

For Fayetteville:

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USAR0189?from=tenDay_bottomnav_undeclared

For Lowell:

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/01850


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Actually, with bees wild swings in temperature are far more damaging than normal average temperatures. We get 70 degree days in every fall and winter month. The day after that it may be 15, the day after that it may be in the negative single digits with a foot and a half of snow. It makes for frightening possibilities with early brooding.

But I don't want to get in to a hissy fit about whose weather is worse.

This is about treating bees like children rather than wild animals. The more you coddle your bees, the weaker their genetics will be. Then when they die it will hurt that much more because of all the work and expense you've put into them. 

Make the hard decisions. Do what's good for beekeeping. Save your money. Shop for northern survivor queens rather than saving a few dollars by buying early season mass produced stock from the deep south.


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## JRH (Dec 30, 2010)

WiredForStereo said:


> This is about treating bees like children rather than wild animals. The more you coddle your bees, the weaker their genetics will be ...


Using this same logic, would you therefore advise a Canadian beekeeper not to wrap his hives?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Do Canadian hive wrappings cease to function when the power goes out? 

This thread is about "electric heat for the hive."


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

In my experience, it's not the power outages that are the problem, it's things like people unplugging them to use the outlet for something else... like a guitar amp etc...


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## KeyBeeper (Jun 7, 2009)

WiredForStereo said:


> Do Canadian hive wrappings cease to function when the power goes out?
> 
> This thread is about "electric heat for the hive."


And could Italian bee's, or any other standard Apis Melifera Melifera live in the coldest parts of Canada outside the help of humans? The Artic bee is rare breed indeed.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

I know on one of the other forums a person Named Robo has started to use 2 Christmas light old school with a piece of tin for a reflector. He says that the queen starts a little earlier in laying egg. This is all on the bottom of the hive. Start end of Jan as I remember and lives down south. 
David


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