# Should I go with Saskatraz packages



## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

i bought ten queens from OHB in California, most of them have been good, check em out on my channel https://www.youtube.com/c/BackyardBeesNC


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Local mutts from a reputable queen seller will overwinter just fine provided they are healthy which means you are doing something about mites. You probably should not take any advice from your friend unless s/he tells you not to do what they are doing. J


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

marcos bees said:


> I will be getting back into things here in Pennsylvania this season and am wondering what kind of bees to order. I have heard good things about Saskatraz bees. My primary goal is to get honey. I have a beekeeper friend who lost 90% of his hives this year so I am not optimistic about chances of overwintering, though Saskatraz is supposedly better. I just hope to make a lot of honey, and if I have to buy packages next year then so be it.
> 
> Anyway, what is your experience with Saskatraz?


Your experience may vary.... I ordered 6 packages of Saskatraz, in 2018, Hived them on comb, built them to 2 deeps and 4 medium supers full.
Had a great Honey crop, 24 medium supers. All we dead by new year, Mited out. If you spend the dime on the bees, I would do the 2 Cents for treatment, or just extract it all, and get more next year. Packages IMO are not TF candidates. As well if your friend has mite issues they are in your area and the bees will find a way to bring them back. I liked the bees, the survivability not so much.
GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Are there any bees that are mite proof in mite prevalent areas? It seems to me that acquiring _set and forget bees_ is a tougher proposition than having bees you expect to treat. 

In Pa. I would think success or failure is more in the hands of the beekeeper than in the breeding of the bees.


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## oldsap (May 1, 2016)

I agree that all bees need to be treated for mites. And I am leaning towards requeening all hives in late July. But having said that we have been very happy with the Saskatraz we have had. If honey production is what you are looking for, ours have built up fast and produced very well. I can't say that others would not do as well but we have been happy just the same.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Fivej said:


> You probably should not take any advice from your friend unless s/he tells you not to do what they are doing. J


+1 Goes real well with my motto of "never take beekeeping advice from someone who buys bees every year".


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

buy what ever packages are available, yes local nucs would be better.. but sometimes you have to take what you can get before its sold out , re queen later in the season as local queens become available, start nucs to over winter with the old queens, monitor and treat

here are some leads for you 
http://northernbeenetwork.org/web-2-0-directory/business-listing/joe-zgurzynski/
http://northernbeenetwork.org/web-2-0-directory/business-listing/steve-repasky/


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## marcos bees (Jun 3, 2013)

Gray Goose said:


> Your experience may vary.... I ordered 6 packages of Saskatraz, in 2018, Hived them on comb, built them to 2 deeps and 4 medium supers full.
> Had a great Honey crop, 24 medium supers. All we dead by new year, Mited out. If you spend the dime on the bees, I would do the 2 Cents for treatment, or just extract it all, and get more next year. Packages IMO are not TF candidates. As well if your friend has mite issues they are in your area and the bees will find a way to bring them back. I liked the bees, the survivability not so much.
> GG


So you put them on drawn comb? I will be putting whatever packages I get in new hives. I plan to feed them sugar and hopefully get them to draw out the frames and then when the flow kicks on I'll put medium supers on. Thankfully, I do have medium super frames that are drawn out.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

marcos bees said:


> ...... I just hope to make a lot of honey, and if I have to buy packages next year then so be it..........?


If all you need is honey - just buy honey then.
Simple solution.


Else your honey will cost you $$$$ per a pound.
If that is what you want - then so be it.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

marcos bees said:


> So you put them on drawn comb? I will be putting whatever packages I get in new hives. I plan to feed them sugar and hopefully get them to draw out the frames and then when the flow kicks on I'll put medium supers on. Thankfully, I do have medium super frames that are drawn out.


where in PA are you located? i am likely to be selling a few nucs this year. i flood my mating yard with saskatraz drones.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

marcos bees said:


> I will be getting back into things here in Pennsylvania this season and am wondering what kind of bees to order. I have heard good things about Saskatraz bees. My primary goal is to get honey. I have a beekeeper friend who lost 90% of his hives this year so I am not optimistic about chances of overwintering, though Saskatraz is supposedly better. I just hope to make a lot of honey, and if I have to buy packages next year then so be it.
> Anyway, what is your experience with Saskatraz?


There was a discussion on Saskatraz bees a few years ago, you might want to look it up here. There were mixed reviews at the time. My own experience with them (I bought queens from OHB) were they swarmed quickly. I’d have to look at my notes to see, but if you search it on here you will find lots of info. Deb


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

I forgot to add at the time OHB advertised hygienic bees, which we did not find at all. I did mite rolls and on the one that rolled 1 mite I didn’t treat till I inspected it and it had PMS. One of the other beeks who had them swore his had EFB but he might have confused the two they are so similar in appearance. Others loved the Sas.


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

marcos bees said:


> So you put them on drawn comb? I will be putting whatever packages I get in new hives. I plan to feed them sugar and hopefully get them to draw out the frames and then when the flow kicks on I'll put medium supers on. Thankfully, I do have medium super frames that are drawn out.


My first disclaimer is that I don't have any personal experience with Saskatraz packages. But a ton of them along with mated queens are sold here directly off shipments from Olivarez so I've had some observations of them. My overall impression has been that they normally are able to produce a good honey crop. And that makes perfect sense as what you are seeing is a queen line out of Canada that has picked up hybrid vigor in a cross. Being packages and shipped queens, you can bank on a % having some problems but overall I do feel they could give you a honey crop even on foundation if that is all you had. 

Whether you see mite resistance from them is a much bigger beast as there are plenty of variables just within the initial open mating that can put them all over the board when we start looking at levels of susceptibility. From the crossings I've messed with using both open mated daughters as breeders and other breeders that are suppose to be somewhat pure stock I think they are about average in comparison with known quantities like vsh. How you use them and what you get for outcomes just depends. 

If you are choosing packages and simply looking for a honey crop realizing that you may replace a great many, why don't you pick the cheapest option in packages. In theory you should get similar crops particularly off italian/carni cross packages out of california. Or get the saskatraz packages and let them do their thing and see if you happen to get some good survivors out of the mix. If a person had enough of those saskatrz packages it is likely that you will see some mite resistance. How big of a sample size will you need, not sure.


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## marcos bees (Jun 3, 2013)

BigBlackBirds said:


> My first disclaimer is that I don't have any personal experience with Saskatraz packages. But a ton of them along with mated queens are sold here directly off shipments from Olivarez so I've had some observations of them. My overall impression has been that they normally are able to produce a good honey crop. And that makes perfect sense as what you are seeing is a queen line out of Canada that has picked up hybrid vigor in a cross. Being packages and shipped queens, you can bank on a % having some problems but overall I do feel they could give you a honey crop even on foundation if that is all you had.
> 
> Whether you see mite resistance from them is a much bigger beast as there are plenty of variables just within the initial open mating that can put them all over the board when we start looking at levels of susceptibility. From the crossings I've messed with using both open mated daughters as breeders and other breeders that are suppose to be somewhat pure stock I think they are about average in comparison with known quantities like vsh. How you use them and what you get for outcomes just depends.
> 
> If you are choosing packages and simply looking for a honey crop realizing that you may replace a great many, why don't you pick the cheapest option in packages. In theory you should get similar crops particularly off italian/carni cross packages out of california. Or get the saskatraz packages and let them do their thing and see if you happen to get some good survivors out of the mix. If a person had enough of those saskatrz packages it is likely that you will see some mite resistance. How big of a sample size will you need, not sure.


They are more expensive definitely, so wondering if I should pick a cheaper package?


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Gray Goose said:


> Your experience may vary.... I ordered 6 packages of Saskatraz, in 2018, Hived them on comb, built them to 2 deeps and 4 medium supers full.
> Had a great Honey crop, 24 medium supers. All we dead by new year, Mited out. If you spend the dime on the bees, I would do the 2 Cents for treatment, or just extract it all, and get more next year. Packages IMO are not TF candidates. As well if your friend has mite issues they are in your area and the bees will find a way to bring them back. I liked the bees, the survivability not so much.
> GG


Saskatraz bees are touted for their mite resistance, right?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

username00101 said:


> Saskatraz bees are touted for their mite resistance, right?


that was the exact reason I tried them. Could have been a local problem, but mine appeared needing treatment to make the first winter.
In Hind sight, a brood break or a treatment would have helped. I did want to see how they did straight up. I had Hoped 2 or 3 would make it to split from, but was surprised when Zero did. Others may have had different experiences. give them a try, other than dying I did like them. Just realize they would likely need to be treated.
GG


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

marco bees

i have no doubt that in their original location saskatraz did have a solid level of resistance. but just like russians, vsh, purdue stuff that resistance thing is made up of various components and is an awful hard thing to maintain. take a look at how many colonies are sitting in CA when daughters of those saskatraz breeders mate. you may end up with some really good packages that winter well or maybe not. So if there is a price differential, i might be inclined to head towards the cheaper packages given that unknown.

If you decide to start looking longer term, you might be best to find some local nucs as a starting point. It would be much easier to incorporate saskatraz genes into a pool of known quantity. Otherwise you are banking on finding a saskatraz queen(s) that happen to be carrying enough specific mite resistance traits to get you thru the winter. And if I was trying to incorporate various genes into local nucs, I'd start with vsh first over saskatraz as that path has been pretty well worked out at this point. Then I'd move to saskatraz, etc


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## kapkarl (Oct 10, 2015)

I had two Saz package a couple years ago. I saw very little difference in performance here in N Wisconsin. Plenty mites, not noticeably more or less honey than my local mutts. 

But I only had five colonies, so the sample is very small. Also a strange long cold spring and a dry summer. They did not overwinter.


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## bee keeper chef (Nov 1, 2015)

Buy local over wintered nucs if possible. Be careful of some people selling nucs in Pa I would ask if they produced the nucs in Pa or were they brought up from the south and are being sold as northern nucs. Sad to say but it does happen.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We picked up about 50 Saskatraz packages last year. The Queen colors where very inconsistent. They made a good honey crop, but got mean when the hives got big. The dealer claimed I was the only one who complained , but it is possible that with our management, we get hives much bigger than others.

We will NOT be buying anymore Saskatraz. 

Crazy Roland


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## Steve in PA (Jan 26, 2015)

bee keeper chef said:


> Buy local over wintered nucs if possible. Be careful of some people selling nucs in Pa I would ask if they produced the nucs in Pa or were they brought up from the south and are being sold as northern nucs. Sad to say but it does happen.


I would say not only does that happen, it is the majority of nucs sold in PA. Many are nucs made after they come back from oranges.

I only have my overwintered open mated mutts that do well. A friend bought some Saskatrazz and between the swarming and winter deaths he wants to buy nucs from me this spring.

Small sample size but That's my 2nd hand knowledge of them. Could be that he also just isn't good with bees.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

Fivej said:


> You probably should not take any advice from your friend unless s/he tells you not to do what they are doing. J





JWPalmer said:


> +1 Goes real well with my motto of "never take beekeeping advice from someone who buys bees every year".


+2. 



Gray Goose said:


> Packages IMO are not TF candidates.


Statement of the year so far :applause:


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

> +1 Goes real well with my motto of "never take beekeeping advice from someone who buys bees every year".


Hmm. Let's see, The Honey Householder buys bees every spring in Ohio, so he's got nothing worthwhile to say? :scratch:


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

COAL REAPER said:


> i am likely to be selling a few nucs this year. i flood my mating yard with saskatraz drones.


Why?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

It matters not if you buy bees or not every year. It matters if you make money with them. He sells them every year. No need to treat for mites.

Crazy Roland


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

My best honey success has been re-queening a hive with a mated Saskatraz queen. My best hive Varroa resistance via re-queening has come from a New World Carniolan - very apparent. I suggest you use any package queen, OAV the installed, brood-less package, re-queen after spring build up. Use quality mated Queens and vary the genetics for good drone diversity. I also have good success creating nucs with brood, nurse bees, feeding and slowly adding a mated queen. I run 8-10 hives with some nucs but still a newbee after 5 years.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

username00101 said:


> Saskatraz bees are touted for their mite resistance, right?


No they are not. From the saskatraz web site
==============
Summary of Saskatraz breeder queen traits:

· - Excellent honey production

· - Good wintering ability

· - Selected for increased varroa tolerance and resistance to brood diseases.

· - Show increased hygienic behavior
==============

Honey production and northern wintering abilities are the primary traits being promoted. Increased tolerance is not 'resistance'. It may mean they require less management for mites, but it certainly does not mean they will survive beekeeper neglect with respect to mites.


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## Storm (Apr 6, 2017)

marcos bees said:


> I will be getting back into things here in Pennsylvania this season and am wondering what kind of bees to order. I have heard good things about Saskatraz bees. My primary goal is to get honey. I have a beekeeper friend who lost 90% of his hives this year so I am not optimistic about chances of overwintering, though Saskatraz is supposedly better. I just hope to make a lot of honey, and if I have to buy packages next year then so be it.
> 
> Anyway, what is your experience with Saskatraz?


Wouldnt it be better to learn how to overwinter them or just support a local beekeeper that knows how to keep bees?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Robert - Who's NWC did you use?

Crazy Roland


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

Cloverdale said:


> Why?


saskatraz hybrid drones carry the traits of the saskatraz breeder queen. the saskatraz hybrid queens can be hit or miss for running production colonies, but they all lay 100% canadian saskatraz drones. it is these drones that i am trying to promote to mate with my virgin queens grafted from my best overwintered stock.
.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

COAL REAPER said:


> saskatraz hybrid drones carry the traits of the saskatraz breeder queen. the saskatraz hybrid queens can be hit or miss for running production colonies, but they all lay 100% canadian saskatraz drones. it is these drones that i am trying to promote to mate with my virgin queens grafted from my best overwintered stock.
> .


So you like the Saskatraz bees; what do you find the best about them?


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

i was hoping for the traits that grozzie listed. i do see good honey production. saw best average ever last year with overwintered nucs. they winter in small clusters and use little stores. i am treating all hives for mites in the same manner so i dont want to speak to resistance or hygienic characteristics. but they dont crash in the fall and go through winter well. i will also say that they are very gentle bees and not runny on the comb. last year was my first experience with my overwintered queens mated by saskatraz drones. trying to bring in different stock to my local gene pool.


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## Cloverdale (Mar 26, 2012)

5 Sas queens 2017, still have 3 of them, but they have swarmed every year which is OK with me; they do have good overwintering quality like you mentioned, small clusters. I thought they had died that first Winter, I couldn’t monitor because I had solid bottom boards but didn’t hear much of anything. But getting back to your drone traits, these bees kept their small wintering cluster after swarming every year for 3 years.

An opinion here on other queens; I don’t have much experience on buying queens but since I swore off of buying bees and going somewhat sustainable in 2016 (hence buying queens for genetics) the best queens were Michael Palmers. Wintered small, so so gentle, and good honey producers. I’ve said this before, they were polite bees! If I was in their way they would wait, then maybe bump me. I’ve got 5 hives from his queens. Tried Buckfast from Canada, which I liked, but when they requeened themselves they got nasty.


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

Love Saskatraz. Just not from a package. Even the best packages are like chaos in a box. Even if you put them on drawn comb (which I did) they may well supersede her as many packages do. If I ever do it again it will be with an established colony to give her the best shot at acceptance for the long haul.


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## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

crofter said:


> Are there any bees that are mite proof in mite prevalent areas? It seems to me that acquiring _set and forget bees_ is a tougher proposition than having bees you expect to treat.
> 
> In Pa. I would think success or failure is more in the hands of the beekeeper than in the breeding of the bees.


I wouldn't expect anything, I would just do what is necessary to keep my bees doing well, whether that is a lot or a little. Success happens when you have good bees and a good beekeeper, any other combination will struggle.


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## Jim Braun (Nov 8, 2019)

I have been following Little Bits Honey Bees on youtube for a while as I'm interested in starting to graft my own queens this year. One of the statements that he has made is that package queens usually get replaced by the colony before the first year. The bigger a queen producer is the less of the genetics get passed on from production queens. I have seen a chart that show how many times it takes for the original genetics to be lost in each generation. If I remember correctly by the third generation you are down to 50%, and by 10 you have lost that trait entirely. This is the problem that we all face as beekeepers. There are no magic bullets(queens) to help us. Only good and frequent applications of varroa control. Unless you can completely control your genetics, outside bees will soon remove your progress. This is why we have Instrumental Insemination. 
I am of the opinion that you would be better off buying nucs than packages, regardless of the queen.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Well, yes, you kind of have to play the hand you are dealt. If you are surrounded by bees that are constantly topped up genetically with bees suited for production for pollination and providing sheer numbers of bees for nuc and package production, then it will be hard to maintain bees otherwise oriented. If the surrounding drones are generally almond bee types then the math might suggest your select queens influence disappears astonishingly fast. I probably could control and perhaps do control the drone population in my immediate location.

I quite like my present genetics so Saskatraz is not tempting me. Go to the Saskatraz site and absorb a good education of what a breeding regime entails. I was impressed with their record keeping.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Jim Braun said:


> I have been following Little Bits Honey Bees on youtube for a while as I'm interested in starting to graft my own queens this year. One of the statements that he has made is that package queens usually get replaced by the colony before the first year. The bigger a queen producer is the less of the genetics get passed on from production queens. I have seen a chart that show how many times it takes for the original genetics to be lost in each generation. If I remember correctly by the third generation you are down to 50%, and by 10 you have lost that trait entirely. This is the problem that we all face as beekeepers. There are no magic bullets(queens) to help us. Only good and frequent applications of varroa control. Unless you can completely control your genetics, outside bees will soon remove your progress. This is why we have Instrumental Insemination.
> I am of the opinion that you would be better off buying nucs than packages, regardless of the queen.


Comments/opinions on your comments Jim,
1)One of the statements that he has made is that package queens usually get replaced by the colony before the first year. IMO doing a Mel D type requeen in Aug after Honey flow would give a brood break and a new young queen for winter. Not necessarily a worse queen to winter with that the one you released, with the package.
2)The bigger a queen producer is the less of the genetics get passed on from production queens. not sure what you mean here, most of the big producers use breeder Queens and they would have 50% of the mothers Genes and 50% from the drones, open mated.
3)I have seen a chart that show how many times it takes for the original genetics to be lost in each generation. If I remember correctly by the third generation you are down to 50%, and by 10 you have lost that trait entirely. IMO first generation daughter would be 50% second gen 25% , 3rd 12.5 etc as each open mated generation has 50 percent contribution from the drone pool.
3)Only good and frequent applications of varroa control. Unless you can completely control your genetics, outside bees will soon remove your progress. again not following unless you are insinuating the not good varroa control causes requeening and open mateing from local stock. If the local stock is survivor type stock, it may actually be helping you.
4)I am of the opinion that you would be better off buying nucs than packages, regardless of the queen. So keep in mind some NUCs are made with ordered Queens from the same place as produce the package Queens. One should ask about the queen and where it came from with a NUC. If better off,, is important a local split should also be on the list of options.

Overall I would agree the Queen source is important, however How and When a queen is produced is as important as the genetic material.
Good luck and choose wisely
GG


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Roland, I got them from a Bee Club Queen distribution program. I believe the NWC came form Ohio but I am still trying to identify the breeder. I want a couple more too.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

There was a time that "NWC" was controlled by Sue Colby, and was only allowed to be used by Strachan and "___?__". Be careful , they may not alll be of the same quality as Strachan. "Carniolan" and "NWC" where once not the same.

Roland


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Sue Cobey.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

My bad, just a cheesehead here. (Colby is from Colby Wisconsin)

Crazy Roland


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

JMHO:

Chasing some super special hybrid bee strain is a fool's errand. There are too many local variables that affect performance, and, the specially bred traits (if they do exist) will be lost the first time the hive requeens itself, anyway. 

My thought is to buy local queens from a reputable breeder, and then, _make sure you properly treat for mites!

_Again, JMHO.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

"Chasing some super special hybrid bee strain is a fool's errand." 

It is amazing to read all the different experiences that have been reported regarding Saskatraz queens, I love the early spring honey the Saskatraz colony produced. My experience has been good especially with regards to early build up and honey production. They do brood up early and eat! Replacing queens and /or colonies with quality mated queens, NWC, Saskatraz, etc., does not make me feel foolish when I see how my open mated queens perform. Raising my own bees and installing quality queens, re-queening or via a nuc, has been fruitfull for my back yard beekeeping. Finding a local, quality breeder is very hard in my area. But I will keep looking. A Saskatraz hive produced over 200 lb. of honey last year - never thought it was possible around here.


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## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

shinbone said:


> JMHO:
> 
> Chasing some super special hybrid bee strain is a fool's errand. There are too many local variables that affect performance, and, the specially bred traits (if they do exist) will be lost the first time the hive requeens itself, anyway.
> 
> ...


Just make sure that reputable breeder doesn't live more than 5 miles away, or the first time the colony requeens itself those traits will be lost.Haha. I do agree with second statement, find the type of bees you want, drive there and pick them up, and then split and re-queen from those.


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## bjerm2 (Jun 9, 2004)

I ordered 4 packages from Man Lake. Will see how they do in my area.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Mt best producing colony is a Saskatraz. My worse mated queen for hive replacements / introductions are Saskatraz ( or is it the hive's fault?). My fastest growing nucs are Saskatraz queened. My best Varroa resistant colony is a New World Carniolan. My earliest Foraging colony is a Saskatraz. My best survivor is a Hawaiian Carniolan (so far, after 4 winters - go figure). My best suggestion is queen diversity and patience. There is the luck-of-the-draw issue.


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## jimbo3 (Jun 7, 2015)

bjerm2 said:


> I ordered 4 packages from Man Lake. Will see how they do in my area.


. Holy crap, they're $200 a package now? That's crazy.


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