# Hivemaker/woodworker advice needed



## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

I use a table saw and a radial arm saw, I do use a router but only to ct the escape holes in the inercovers, I don`t make frames.


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## bigbore (Feb 25, 2008)

I have made just about all of it at one time or an other. you can do it with a router, table saw, radial arm saw, or chop saw. I wanted to see if I could do it, but now it isn't worth my time to make frames, unless I want something "custom". You can make everything except frames with a chop saw, and a table saw, unless you want to "finger" the joints in the corners of your boxes.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

If you're only building a few then just use the skilsaw and butt join them. Get a large speed square and use it for guiding your crosscuts so they're square. If you're building a bunch you need a good table saw that will run dado blades. The little portable saws at Home Depot are not going to do it. If you're only building a few boxes you may be able to use a router, but I would not buy one for hives. I build hundreds of boxes at a time and use 2 tools, a large table saw, and a sliding compound miter saw for the crosscuts. You can do the crosscuts on the table saw but it's slower and you get some kickback. Don't even consider building frames; they're so cheap to buy it doesn't make sense to build them.


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## justinh83 (Aug 2, 2010)

Pascopol, here are the tools that we use in our building... Miter saw (Pull), Handheld router, Tablesaw for ripping/dado, and drill. I do need to add that we only manufacture our top boards, bottom boards, and hive bodies. I find that it is not worth the time to create a frame. Right now if you check Dadant you can buy a deep frame unassembled for 64 cents. If you want to create the frames, more power to you, but it takes enough time to assemble them, let alone build them. Long story short, exactly what tools you will need depends on the style of connection your boxes use, types of handholds acceptable to you, whether you want to screen bottoms or use traditional, and whether you want to cover your tops with material.

In answer to your question about the radial saw or table saw. A table saw is used to rip boards (cut lengthwise along the grain. Generally, miter saws are used for cross-cutting (Across the grain cuts). A radial saw is any saw that spins with a circular blade. I'm going to assume that you mean a radial arm saw. Generally these saws have blades that can be rotated up to 90 degrees so that you can achieve cross-cuts and rips. Therefore a radial arm so would be more versatile.

You also need to consider the material that you will be using. Will it be 4' x 8' plywood, or will you buy single planks of wood?


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## justinh83 (Aug 2, 2010)

fish_stix, out of curiosity, how do you do your handholds with a tablesaw and a mitersaw?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

A router isn't needed. A good table saw and either a miter/chop saw or a radial arm saw will do everything.


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## justinh83 (Aug 2, 2010)

No, the router isn't necessary for a functional box, but I do find it quite easy to produce consisten handholds using a plunge router. It all depends on how far one really wants to go.


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## pascopol (Apr 23, 2009)

justinh83 said:


> In answer to your question about the radial saw or table saw. A table saw is used to rip boards (cut lengthwise along the grain. Generally, miter saws are used for cross-cutting (Across the grain cuts). A radial saw is any saw that spins with a circular blade. I'm going to assume that you mean a radial arm saw. Generally these saws have blades that can be rotated up to 90 degrees so that you can achieve cross-cuts and rips. Therefore a radial arm so would be more versatile.
> 
> You also need to consider the material that you will be using. Will it be 4' x 8' plywood, or will you buy single planks of wood?



Yes, I meant radial arm saw. So radial arm saw will do all what table saw, can plus correct?
(Rips and angle cuts).

OK guys if router is not needed how do I cut grooves like grooved top bar?

I'll probably be using both plywood and planks, does it matter as far as choice of tools is concerned?

I am not going to bother with frames if they are so cheap, thanks for the tip guys.

Thanks all for great and friendly answers!


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## ArkansasBK (Mar 5, 2011)

Hand holds can be cut with dado blades on either a table saw or radial arm saw. A little easier on a table saw, but it's about the only thing that is easier. The versatility of the radial arm is better IMO.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

I make hundreds a month with just a table saw and radial arm saw, as many previously posted. Similarly frame ends are not worth the time, an interesting thing to try just once then buy them by the bundle.


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## justinh83 (Aug 2, 2010)

A groove can be cut into a top bar using radial blade but would have to be hand finished at the edges.

As far as what type of wood, here is what I can see:

With a 4x8 sheet of plywood a rip on a radial arm saw is less practical, although is possible depending on the reach of the arm and the support base. I prefer my 4x8 cutting on the table saw. With planks, you can rip and crosscut all day long with a general purpose blade on the radial arm saw. Since the wood is much less than 4 feet wide, it does not have that same restriction.

If you want to purchase just one tool, I would think that the radial arm saw would be better since it is more versatile than the table saw. You can build jigs to fit your equipment to make things a little easier, depending on the quantity that you want to produce... If you just want a hive or two, then it would be cheaper to buy them, but if you intend on sticking with it and expanding, or doing woodworking in other areas, go with the equipment.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

justinh83 said:


> If you want to purchase just one tool, I would think that the radial arm saw would be better since it is more versatile than the table saw.


I disagree. A table saw will be much safer than a radial arm saw. You can crosscut and rip on both saws, but a table saw is safer crosscutting than a radial arm saw is ripping.


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## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

Don't even bother with cutting handholds in the wood.
Take a 1x3 or scrap and rip down the middle it at a 30 deg. angle. Take the two peices place the angle point up and sided to the body of the hive body. Nail on. you now have a nice big handhold. Flat on the fingers and angled to shead water.
Ever seen what happen when you fingers slip out of the hand hold and the hive body hits the ground.
You don't want to see it twice!


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm with Berry. Trying to rip on a radial arm saw is dangerous. Even more so if you are ripping thin peices. On a table saw you can use a push stick to keep your fingers out of the way. I would go with a table saw and chop saw.

John


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## ArkansasBK (Mar 5, 2011)

You ALWAYS us a push stick with any saw if your fingers come anywhere close to the blade. Radial arm saws have anti-kickback devices, if used properly makes the saw safe to use. Homemade jigs for convience and safety can be built also.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I am with Barry also.I make everything.Frames are cheap but I do it because I have the time and equipment plus a brother who owns a lumberyard so I get all the lumber I need.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

If I had only one tool to use, it would be a table saw. I bought a used 10" Craftsman with a 48" cast iron top for $75. Gotta love Craigslist.

Here's my list of tools, most of which are unnecessary but handy to have.

Table saw: Indispensible. Make sure it has an arbor large enough to handle a dado blade stack of 3/4" or more. (Most 99 dollar specials from Lowes or HD won't work.) This saw will make every cut you need and the dado stack will cut all the finger joints and rabbets in the boxes and all the various grooves in the screened bottom boards. 

I have a router which I only use for handholds. (Takes a couple of minutes to do with a plywood template that clamps to the piece, so if you like handholds, make them, even even though the anti-handhold crew is relentless in their zeal.)

I have a radial arm saw that I use only for crosscuts and bought it only to save time in blade setups on the table saw. (Got it used for 25 dollars and rebuilt it for only a few dollars more.) Back in the 70's and 80's, I had the very same Craftsman saw and used it enough to never want to use it for anything but crosscuts again. A cutoff saw (never used one) might serve the same if it will cut boards wide enough for deeps. I would not even consider using the radial arm saw for any other operation but cross-cutting anymore.

I use a hole cutter in my electric drill and a saber saw to cut the holes in the inner covers.

I have a 10" "lunch-box" planer (Also $75 used) that I use mostly for planing 2x10's down to make frame endbars. Yes, I make frames. The secret is to work smart and plan your work to minimize blade setups. I can mass-produce hundreds in an afternoon and I don't have to pay for them with after tax dollars. One former, now banned, member suggested that my time would be better used by working more hours and buying frames from a supplier. I think making frames during hours that might otherwise be wasted watching football or drinking beer is a better use of my winter days off.

I bought a cheap compresser and nail gun from Lowes for around 100 bucks. The day I said to myself, "gee, this thing has paid for itslef in no time," the cheap nailer gave out. I replaced it with a Hitachi brad nailer that I got on Amazon for about $79. (Brads hold everything while the Titebond III glue dries.)

I use a hand stapler to staple #8 hardware cloth to the bottom boards.

I just bought a 30" metal brake to bend the aluminum for the tops of the telescoping covers.

I use a circular saw (an ancient Black & Decker) for cutting the plywood I use for inner and telescoping covers. Cutting plywood with this saw has yet to result in dangerous kickbacks. Plus, I do it outsde on a nice day and not have to wrestle large sheets in the confines of my small shop.

I also have a brand new Grizzly 14" bandsaw with riser block that I bought to resaw my mountain of free 2X8, 2X10 and 2x12 cut-offs into boards for hive bodies.

Other than the table saw, the most indispensible piece of equipment in my small shop is the 2HP dust collector I bought from Harbor Freight. Folks might go on long rants about what garbage you get from Harbor Freight, but my bet is that they never used this excellent, yet inexpensive pice of machinery.

It was a great day when I made a committment to beekeeping and realized that I was going to be able to buy all sorts of new tools!

Wayne


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Justinh83; I use the 7/8" thick dado blade to cut the handholds but I use a couple of stops either side of the blade to extend the length of the cut to about 6 1/4" and 5/8" deep. You're not going to drop my boxes, there's plenty of room for the biggest fingers in the handholds. Cleats work good but they're not good for stacking boxes close together. Plus, I can cut handholds 10 times as fast as you can make and nail cleats to a box.


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

When I start my setup on frames I will do one piece all day!!! I will get a really big stack of that one piece and then the next day I will do the next piece and so on.That way I never have to adjust blades or dados and I can get every piece the exact same.Quality control that way!!! I can get all my frames to have good tight joints and hold together real good.Also a little Tite Bond II or III whish ever I have handy at the time.If you are doing small numbers of frames just buy them unless you are like Wayne and I.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Beek on a budget is going to chime in. I have a newer craftsman sliding miter (indispensable), Table saw (also indispensable), nailer, compressor, router if I need it (rarely), and a drill. Don't get the RAS...waste of money IHO....one size fits all does not always fit all right. I sold the RAS and got a table saw...
mike


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I like woodworking, as well as beekeeping, and I like making my own beekeeping equipment, with my own personal modifications.

I use two table saws, one with a single blade and a second one with a dado stack. I also use a table mounted router, a hand-held circular saw, a band saw, drills, power drivers, a stapler, hammer, glue and various clamps (probably a few others I don't recall right now).

Each piece of equipment has its purpose, some can serve multiple purposes, but if each tool is dedicated to its most suited use things will go quicker and easier.


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## tedw200 (Mar 4, 2009)

I make all my wood components for the bees, I only use a TABLESAW and a JOINTER.
I have woodworking shop and have all the tools and equipment, but it only requires the 
tablesaw and a jointer to do the fabrication. Yes you will need a drill for assembly.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

> craftsman sliding miter (indispensable),


 Those IMHO are great 
I wish I had one
I do mine with table-saw,Brad nailer,miter,mallet
Could do it all with table saw,mallet,glue
Just remember Jigs they are the Key
* learn to make and use Jigs safely*

Tommyt


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

TommyT, yes you can get by with a jig.....but having 2 separate machines saves down time....
mike


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Mike 
You are correct 
the guy said he was limited on Funds
I love tools like woman love Jewels

Tommyt


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## pascopol (Apr 23, 2009)

Great posts, lot of priceless info here guys, here is another newbee question: what size of brads you use for frames?

What size for joining hive sides ?

Anybody uses wood screws instead? What size? (for hives and supers)

Back to brads, I have electric brad nailer and also I have 120 psi air compressor. Is it worth to buy air powered brad nailer?

I believe air brad is more powerful and reliable correct?


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## justinh83 (Aug 2, 2010)

fish_stix said:


> Justinh83; I use the 7/8" thick dado blade to cut the handholds but I use a couple of stops either side of the blade to extend the length of the cut to about 6 1/4" and 5/8" deep. You're not going to drop my boxes, there's plenty of room for the biggest fingers in the handholds. Cleats work good but they're not good for stacking boxes close together. Plus, I can cut handholds 10 times as fast as you can make and nail cleats to a box.


Not me! I use a router and clamp on a jig as well. I've seen what a load of honey can do to nailed on cleats on other keepers hives throughout the years. Don't want that! I notice that your cut is 5/8" deep. Are you using 6/8" material?


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Because I glue everything with Titebond III, I might use smaller fasteners than others. For hive bodies I use 1 1/2" 18ga. (2 inch seems to bend too easy and shoot out the sides.) For frames, I use 1" brads (5/8" to fasten the wedges.) 

I use drywall screws to assemble the screen bottom board sides to the flat portion. I know a beekeeper in Maine that assembled huis boxes with screws.

I've only used an air compressor with my brad nailer.

Wayne


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## justinh83 (Aug 2, 2010)

For frames we use the 7/8" I believe. As of right now he assemble all frames we do by hand. I have seen people do the staples and brads, but I cannot speak to their effectiveness over the 10 nail solution that I use.

If you want to use brads, try your electric first, as frame material may not necessarily need something powerful.

We do not use nails to join the hive bodies. We use 2.25" cabinet screws with a little woodglue.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Never use brads...only staples. I think I have had those brad frames fall apart. 
mike


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## TomOB (Jun 1, 2003)

i use 7/8 inch non planed Pine lumber from an Amish yard and i make all cuts using a hand held radial saw.......the rabets (sp) are cut slowly with the blade set at 5/8 inches......the short pieces, for either deep or medium supers, are all 15 and 3/8 inches long while the long pieces are all 20 and 1/2 inches long......i use three inch screws fastening the long pieces to the short and i fasten the second short piece using a standard Dadant frame as a guide......each medium super fits all Dadant frames and costs less than four dollars Canadian.....i use the same radial saw to shave any overhang at the corners......i'm not tight with money, just monumentally thrifty


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## snapper1d (Apr 8, 2011)

I use what they call a dado joint.It can be cut quickly with only a tablesaw.You can use either a saw blade and cut it from both directions or just use a dado and cut the groove all in one cut.Glue it and you can nail it from both sides.It makes a strong joint.

http://www6.district125.k12.il.us/teched/Courses/TDresources/WoodJoints.html


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## MichaelShantz (May 9, 2010)

My woodworking seems different than anyone else so here goes.
Cut down Monterrey pines with McCulloch PM 605 chain saw.
Slice into 1.25" boards using Granberg chain saw mill, stact stickered til dry.
Plane to 1" using Delta benchtop planer.
Cut finger joints with Delta band saw and a jig saw to do the cross part.
Titebond III finger joints, no nails.
Porter Cable 6902 router for handholds and frame support shelves.
Sherline benchtop milling machine with various jigs for making frames, titebondIII, no nails.
details: https://picasaweb.google.com/MichaelJShantz/BeeHive4302010#

free wood, free time, free bees


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## NCbeek (Mar 23, 2011)

I use a stacked blade on my table saw to cut a rabet of 3/8 along the edge of the bodies. I have a 10 inch table saw blade that I stack three 7 inch blades against. That way I make two cuts at the same time, the rabet and the finished edge. If I need a clean edge I just cut from the oppisite side of the blade or lower it until the dado is not above the table. Glue and staple the edges. Also do the same for the top groove only have to use more dado blade. So the tools I have are air compressor, staple gun, circular saw, table saw. 
Bee very careful with the saws. I was saving lots of money building my stuff until a board slipped and my finger went into the table saw blade. Cost me 1/3 of a finger and $11,000 to build 15 hive bodies and supers. BTW I had been doing wood work for 20 years, so be mindful where your fingers are! That's the best advice I can give.


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## pascopol (Apr 23, 2009)

MichaelShantz said:


> My woodworking seems different than anyone else so here goes.
> Cut down Monterrey pines with McCulloch PM 605 chain saw.
> Slice into 1.25" boards using Granberg chain saw mill, stact stickered til dry.
> Plane to 1" using Delta benchtop planer.
> ...


Your operation is surely "different" than making a few hives now and then by average beek Joe. 
LOL


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

MichaelShantz 
your work is art

Tommyt


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## Apiator (Apr 8, 2011)

For all the talk of wasted time building frames... I've found it pretty easy. The end bars I cut from 2x4. I dado the notches on the table saw, then mark with a pattern and cut them to shape with the band saw, then set up a fence on the band saw and resaw them. I think I made about 400 in 2 hours at first effort; I see no reason I can't double that production. The key is doing one step with all your pieces before moving on to the next step.

The top and bottom bars are just a few simple setups and jigs on the table saw, and using the band saw to rip them. (Although it would take pages to explain it all.) Less waste that way, considering you lose 1/8" every time you rip on the table saw... and you don't want skinny pieces between your blade and fence either. Frame assembly goes pretty fast with my buddy helping, assembly line style, and I'll speed that up soon as I get around to making a frame jig.

Other than that, I have a sliding miter saw, and a jointer. I consider the jointer an absolute necessity given the rarity of buying perfectly straight lumber.

Box joint sleds are pretty simple if you want to get fancy.

I have a stacked dado set, but I don't use it... I use an adjustable wobble dado. Makes setup a bit quicker -- only have to loosen the nut to change the width.

I don't use a router for anything. It would be too slow, far as I'm concerned, but if you're going that route, you definitely want a table setup, fingerboards, etc. And for radial arm saws... ick. Let them go the way of the dinosaur... and NEVER rip with one.

Now then... a few words of advice for the OP: I am a professional. Some of the other guys here are professional woodworkers or carpenters, too. Just know your limitations. Some of the things I do, I would not recommend to a beginner, or even a seasoned hobbyist. The most important thing is not losing fingers.


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## Apiator (Apr 8, 2011)

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> Never use brads...only staples. I think I have had those brad frames fall apart.
> mike


Do you not use glue?


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## Swedeboy (Apr 28, 2011)

MichaelShantz said:


> https://picasaweb.google.com/MichaelJShantz/BeeHive4302010#


In picture 21 you mention using CA (Cyano Acrylate) for gluing frames together, is this not dangerous for the bees? As CA is quite the harsh chemical.

Other then that beautiful work there!


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