# trapout with no brood?



## hopeful (Oct 23, 2012)

I told a guy I would get rid of his bees in his tree, but my one and only hive(from a cutout last year) has no brood or eggs at all. Can I trap some bees and bring them back to my yard and give them a mail order queen? Will I get enough bees from putting the cone on the trap?


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

Depends on how many bees are in the tree.
No eggs in your current hive anywhere? Anyone else you know that might have some?
Only option left might be used comb and some lemongrass oil to get them to take up residence. If you can get them moving in you can introduce a queen right there on the spot so the trapout can stay the course.


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## hopeful (Oct 23, 2012)

I was planning a hogan style trapout, but I don't have any brood now. There are no bee clubs in my area and no other bee keepers in my county. I talked to a couple of guys an hour away, but they couldn't help me. I have comb and lemongrass oil, but I didn't think I would need it with the bees forced to go through my trap. Then after I put the wire cone on, they won't have any place else to go.


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## SS1 (Jun 1, 2013)

I know what your talking about but have never attempted that style of trapout.
However, in ANY trapout, the keys to success are converting the bees from one home to another. The longer they are in the box with NO HOPE.. meaning no eggs/larvae, no chance of a queen, the more likely they are to perish or Abscond entirely.
In a successful trapout, EVENTUALLY you want the original queen to abscond from what remains of her dwindling hive.. I have no clue what will happen if she goes cruising through that box.....
if its queenless will she stay there?
if you introduce a queen.. will they fight?
I wish I had experiences to share, but As stated, I have never attempted this style trapout.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

hopeful...Without a frame of unsealed brood the bees will likely use a Hogan style trap as a place to store surplus honey. the Hogan method is based upon fooling the bees into thinking the trap is just another brood chamber, horizontal rather than vertical. That is what draws the queen out and gets her started laying in the trap. 

If you are wanting to eliminate the colony, use a cone funnel inside your trapout box. As the bees exit, they cannot get back into the original colony and will take up residence in the trap.

With no brood you will initially get guard bees, since the entrance will be the only entrance into the old colony. You will get cleaners that come out to clean your trap and any frames you give them. Then, initially, you will get mostly field bees as there is nothing in the trap to draw out the nurse bees, housekeepers, and the queen. However, as you leave the trap in place you will get others as they exit for cleansing flights or rest outside the hive. 

If the parent colony is a large one, you may have to remove the frames from the trap and either give to a weak hive, or add a queen and start a new colony. Then add other frames as needed.

If you have not received my 12 page document on using the Hogan Trap Method, e-mail me at [email protected] and I will send it to you. There will likely be a couple days delay in receiving an answer since at the present time that e-mail is down, but, I hope to have it back up in a couple more days. If anyone else has requested info on the trapout documents, or, the hand hold jig, I hope to have this address back up and i will respond to all who have requested the info. Sorry for the delay but I am having computer server problems.

cchoganjr


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## hopeful (Oct 23, 2012)

Thanks for the info SS1 and Cleo. I will try to get as many bees as possible in the trap (without the funnel at first, and then with the funnel installed) before my queen arrives. I have three weeks. I think I will bring them back to my yard a couple of days before the queen arrives.


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## hopeful (Oct 23, 2012)

After I install the funnel, will the bees in the trap act queenless, or will they still feel part of the hive in the tree?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

They will act queenless because they cannot get back to the parent colony. However, if you have a frame of brood in there you will not have a problem.

cchoganjr


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## marant (Jan 18, 2014)

Cleo

I have a Hogan Trap in place, with the bees using it for an entrance and exit. It is now time for the next step. I do not want to eliminate the hive in the tree, but I do want that queen's genetics. I have two questions:

1. Assuming I can get a frame of brood from my new hive, must it contain eggs and larvae, or can it be all capped brood?
2. What is the best way to identify the trapped queen's eggs if I have used one of my frames that contains eggs and larvae? Can I expect the trapped queen to lay in an empty frame of comb, which I can mark to identify that they are from the trapped queen?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

1. Eggs or larva works better because they have more odor than sealed brood. The odor is what brings the queen out to investigate. Also, it takes more nurse bees to tend unsealed brood than sealed brood. Therefore, unsealed brood works better.

2. Best way is if the brood is on a frame in the trap that is not the frame of unsealed brood you gave them. Next best is to wait 4-6 days. The unsealed brood you gave them will have been capped by the 6th day, and any new eggs will be from the trapped queen. 

3. Whether the queen stays and lays in the trap, is dependent upon whether she needs the space for a brood chamber, or, to establish her dominance over the trap. In a tree or tank or some small area, the trap may be a better place for a brood nest than where she came from. In a house there may be so much room for her brood that she may come out and investigate the unsealed brood, but, return to her own brood nest, in which case they will normally use the trap for honey storage.

Hope this helps.

cchoganjr


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## marant (Jan 18, 2014)

Cleo

That is exactly the information I needed. Thanks a lot, I am sure I would not be able to do this without your information and assistance.


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## marant (Jan 18, 2014)

Cleo (and everyone else)
Two weeks ago I installed one frame of open brood and a partial frame of comb. Today I had a chance to see if the queen had come out. 
All of the brood had been cared for by nurse bees and hatched out, but no new eggs or brood, in either of the two frames of comb. I am not sure I have another frame of brood to contribute. 
What do you suggest? Should I leave it for a while and hope she comes out? I really want her genetics. If I put another brood frame in is there anything more I can do to encourage her to come out and lay? It is a small tree, so she should be within 1-2 feet of the trap.
As I see it the only other alternative is to give upon the genetics and order a new queen. 

Thanks for all your help.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Apparently the queen has adequate space for her brood chamber and is not wanting to use your trap as a brood chamber. Maybe she investigated, and you did not see her,then went back into the original colony. Since you are wanting to eliminate the colony, go ahead and activate the funnel in the trap. That way, all bees will exit through the funnel and cannot get back into the tree, and will be trapped in your box.

When the population in the tree dwindles, the queen will come out into your trap box, and she will also be trapped. If you are doing an elimination, you don't really have to have open brood. I just brings them out faster. I use the open brood technique because I predominately take starts from a colony and leave the original colony intact. But the funnel is there, and can be used for an elimination. 

The advantage of using the trap sealed to the tree, with the trap entrance as the only entrance/exit is, all bees exit the feral colony through your trap, then when they return they cannot get back to the feral colony. This is especially important in getting the queen, because, in the traditional cone funnel method, when the queen does come out she may exit the feral colony as a swarm and you may or may not catch her. A catch box just sitting close to the end of a cone funnel lets the queen and other bees exit the feral colony into the world, and then relies on them just joining a box of bees that happens to be nearby. The reason the queen will often leave as a swarm is, that box is foreign to her. Those bees no longer have the smell of her colony, and if there is open or sealed brood in that box, she may very well be reluctant to invade that box because she may think there is a queen in that box. So, she takes what bees are left in the feral colony, forms a swarm, exits the funnel, flies to a nearby place, then sends out the scouts to find them a new home. 

Yes, I know, there are numerous examples where the queen exits the funnel and goes right into the trap box, but, this is hit or miss. If your trap is a sealed, integral part of her colony, she exits directly into your trap, and is surrounded with her bees. Nothing foreign here.

Activate your funnel, and forget the open brood in an elimination trap out. 

The open brood is used to draw out a queen that you want to take, (letting the remaining bees make a new queen), or as I most often do, use the open brood to draw out nurse bees, house keepers, fanners, guard bees etc, in order to get the proper mix of bees, (similar to the composition of a swarm), to start a new colony. 

Unless someone absolutely wants a feral colony eliminated, I much prefer to take a couple or three starts from the colony and leave it in place from one year to another, harvesting starts each year from this colony.

Taking a couple of starts from a tree or old house, or tank, does not hurt the feral colony as, most likely, they would swarm one or more times each year anyway. By trapping starts you are assured of getting a good start. Putting out swarm boxes is hit or miss.

I apologize for the long winded response. But, I hope this helps those trapping bees for starts and elimination.

Good Luck.

cchoganjr


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## marant (Jan 18, 2014)

Thanks, Cleo. That is excellent information. Unfortunately my son in law does not want to eliminate the hive, so I have to try to entice the queen out. Upon further consideration I have changed my mind about the open brood I put in the trap. Looking at my notes and the time passage I only put the open brood in the trap 14-17 days ago. It had no capped brood, only open and eggs. I don't think that is sufficient time for them to mature and hatch. The comb also shows no signs of being capped and then opened. I think that either the trap bees did not like the brood and killed it, or, more likely, that they did not care for it. The eggs and larvae then died and the trap bees just cleaned out the comb as part of their housekeeping. They have not shown any interest in using the empty comb.

I have not been happy with the seal around the transition, with some bees able to get out without using the trap due to the deep fissures in the bark. Could this be part of the reason the brood did not work? I am considering taking the entire thing apart and reinstalling the transition and trap. I thought I would get some fiberglass insulation and use it to seal the fissures in the bark. Will it harm the bees? Once I have reinstalled the transition and sealed all of the other openings I will reinstall the trap and see if they will all use it as an entrance/exit. Then, depending upon your thoughts, I should be able to filch another frame of brood and try again.

Thanks again.

Mike


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## Buzzlightyear (Dec 4, 2013)

Some use greatstuff foam to seal up any holes.
Good luck, keep us posted. I have a trapout to do pretty soon Im hoping to get the queen.
Buzz


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

marant... Sorry, I misread who i was answering. I thought it was "hopeful", the one who started the thread, and he wanted to eliminate the bees from a friend's tree. But, I think you have the idea and on the right track.

It is absolutely imperative to seal off all holes and force the bees to use the trap entrance as their only means of entrance/exit.

Foam rubber works to fill the gaps in bark. I don't mean liquid foam. I mean like sheets of foam rubber. You place it over the cracks then nail, duct tape, or ratchet strap over the foam to hold it in place.

cchoganjr


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## marant (Jan 18, 2014)

Cleo

I have sealed the exit completely and installed the funnel in the trap. It seems to be working well.

Since we want to leave the colony in the tree long term and want to harvest bees and honey short term, how long do I leave the funnel in place? I do not want to leave it there too long and starve the colony still in the tree. Then, next year, I presume I can just install the funnel and harvest more bees.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

marant... That is a very sticky question. Without brood you will normally get guard bees, some cleaners/housekeepers, and guard bees, but, to take starts you want nurse bees, fanners, drones (yes some drones in the mix), and you will not get them until they come out for cleansing flights or rest. 

With brood, you get the right mix of bees for a new start, and you leave the right mix in the tree. Without brood it is a guessing game. You may wind up with a lot of bees, just the wrong mix of bees for a new colony. 

Your best bet might be to leave the cone in place until the queen comes out,(and she will eventually) and let her lay some eggs in your harvester. Then you can take her, (let her brood make a new queen), or, catch her and put her back into the tree. Either way you will have brood. Move it away and start another colony, and you still have the colony in the tree..

cchoganjr


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## marant (Jan 18, 2014)

Thanks, Cleo. That is exactly the information I needed.


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## hopeful (Oct 23, 2012)

I never got any bees from the tree. I placed the trap with no funnel to let them get used to it, but when I went back to check it after a couple of weeks, the bees were gone. I put the funnel in place just to make sure. The guy got his bees removed, but I didn't get any bees. I used the queen I had ordered on a start from a barrel. I put the trap in place on top of the barrel for a few days, and then I put the funnel on three days before my queen arrived. The day before the queen arrived, I moved the hive to another barrel next to the one with the hive in it, and left the funnel on. Once they accepted the queen, I moved the barrel with the hive inside it to a new location. Both hives are doing well now. I will try to get another hive out of the barrel next spring.


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