# Crawling, Wandering Bees... recognizable disorder?



## Pilgarlic56 (Aug 6, 2010)

I'm backyard beek in Florida with one hive/colony in our first winter. The hive currently has a deep hive box and a medium super about 60% filled with honey. The population appears light, though the hive seems to be about 60-70 pounds. We've just come through a cold spell followed by a balmy day in the seventies yesterday. There was ALOT of traffic around the reduced entrance yesterday. It rained overnight and I found a lot (100 or so) of dead bees at and under the entrance this morning. Later in the day we noticed a few dozen widely scattered crawling bees on the mulch. They oddly seeemed to be almost marching away all in the same direction. They are widely spaced, but all headed the same way. I dissected and inspected live, crawling bees for tracheal mites and found none. I did note that one of the six bees I collected apparently had deformed wing virus. Any ideas?


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Three questions:
1. When you monitored (last summer and fall) for Varroa mites, what were your numbers?
2. Did you treat for V-mites last Aug-Sep?
3. Was the treatment effective? (Confirmed w/ additional monitoring/counts)


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## Pilgarlic56 (Aug 6, 2010)

I didn't monitor, have no counts, and have not observed any Varroa mites on my bees.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>one of the six bees I collected apparently had deformed wing virus . . .
If one-sixth of the dead bees (you found) had DWV, I'll bet the live bees in the hive have a good amount of Varroa.

Your problem(s), crawling, wandering, DWV-infected bees start w/ Varroa mites.

Everyone needs to monitor! (and treat when necessary).


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## B Reeves (Oct 2, 2009)

I would not worry about it now, mid week it is back in the 70's, open them up and look at the brood pattern, after a cold spell you can expect some loss, and I dont treat or monitor, all my hives have SHB, and Varroa, its up to the bees to figure out how to cope and mine do quite well,if you feel your numbers are not up there, you can allways stimulate if it is warm enough with sugar water, it is a gamble with the weather, if you had three hives you would be able to spot the variables better bob


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## Pilgarlic56 (Aug 6, 2010)

I like that answer, Bob. But answer me this: why would I be better able to spot the variables with three hives?


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Did you feed them in the last few days? Could be HMF! 
Three hives is a larger sample size, sit through a wonderful (NOT) statistics class and learn how larger samples are more accurate. 
You might think all girls are a waste if your only girlfriend had two black buck teeth, a zit for a face, and thought sex is a disease. Three hives that have the same symptoms or a shared symptom is easier to work with.


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## Pilgarlic56 (Aug 6, 2010)

Chuckling... I'm familiar with statistics, though I really fail to see the relevance of statistical analysis to the observation of one or three beehives. Be that as it may, did you REALLY have to bring HMF to my attention? I didn't need another thing to worry about. Since HMF is formed by the breakdown of fructose in the presence of an acid, though, I'm not going to worry about it in my cane sugar syrup, so there! Another good reason, though, to avoid high fructose corn syrup or heating honey, n'est ce pas?


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Seriously, I really doubt you have DWV with all the controls you have in place for Varroa - screened bottom board, drone comb sacrifice, sugar dusting. I believe it is FYBP - first year beekeeper paranoia! You only have the single hive to compare symptoms, behaviors, environmental factors and it has been cold the past week. Perhaps the girls are just not feeling like flying. They are waiting for that "light rail" to come to town. Have you tried an oil tray or sticky board under the SBB to count mites? The threshold is not a few or even a few hundred for Varroa IPM.


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## Pilgarlic56 (Aug 6, 2010)

I get the FYBP part. And I don't think I have a problem, though I don't have any of those controls in place other than the screened bottom board. I do think I'll try a sticky board. I'm a serial hobbyist, and beekeeping is my waxing hobby while homebrewing is my waning. In homebrewing, we tell the first years "RDWAHAHB" (Relax, don't worry about it, have a home brew). I think I will, thank you.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

B Reeves said:


> I dont treat or monitor, all my hives have SHB, and Varroa, its up to the bees to figure out how to cope and mine do quite well


How long have you run your bees this way, have any hives died out and do you have varroa tolerant bees?


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## B Reeves (Oct 2, 2009)

oldtimer
I think it has been about seven years ago that i saw an ad for treatment free bees from B weaver, bought some Queens, captured wild local swarms, I dont loose any overwinter, the hives I loose in the summer are because they swarm and they dont make a good queen, if I see a hive that is not doing well for whatever reason and the hive is large enough I will pinch off the queen or combine with nuk if the hive is small. It doesnt matter to me what the cause is the solution is allways the same. But I live in Florida if I lived in Indiana it might be a whole different ballgame, what is your winter weather like were you are at
Bob


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Winters here are fairly mild the bees continue brood rearing throughout.

I asked the question because it's OK to recomend no treatment, provided people realise they'll need bees that can tolerate it (Bee Weaver stock is excellent there are many like yourself that bought them years ago and stiil don't treat).

However if people don't have resistant stock then non treatment is likely to result in losses. 

You have obviously evolved a system that works and an understanding, however I know people who have quit the hobby because of dissillusionment caused by losses after being told not to treat, but not told the full story on how to go about that.


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## B Reeves (Oct 2, 2009)

oldtimer
if Pilgarlic56 was less observant I probably would of mentioned the fact that if he bought his bees from a source that treats then he would have to treat, but I am positive he is very aware, and only uses some of what he reads to form his own ideas, and I bet he has never been disillusioned, what do you have growing in your vegetable garden
Bob


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Probably the same stuff you grow in yours.

Good to hear you probably would of.


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## B Reeves (Oct 2, 2009)

oldtimer,
Well I had carrots and lettuce but we had a cold spell of 27f so the lettuce is done , you live in the country or the city?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

B Reeves said:


> oldtimer,
> Well I had carrots and lettuce but we had a cold spell of 27f so the lettuce is done , you live in the country or the city?


I have a house in both, and bees in both. The city bees do a lot better though. That's now I only have a few hives as a hobby. I wouldn't have bothered with city bees before.


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## B Reeves (Oct 2, 2009)

your country home, is it range land or surrounded by farmland?


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## Pilgarlic56 (Aug 6, 2010)

Bob, I got my bees in a nuc from Kelly's Apiaries in Lakeland and I hadn't the foggiest idea whether they treated or not. I do know that I want to requeen with a quality queen, next September or so if my colony does well enough until then. I'm in Valrico. Can I buy you lunch?


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## B Reeves (Oct 2, 2009)

I will pm you my phone number


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

B Reeves said:


> your country home, is it range land or surrounded by farmland?


It's what in this country is called lifestyle blocks.

You'd like to know what I eat for breakfast?


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Pilgarlic, when you requeen, do so with a resistant, treatment free queen, then you'll never have to treat or worry about varroa. I started out with treatment free bees, and don't bother with mite counts or treatments. One less headache to deal with.
Regards,
Steven


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## Pilgarlic56 (Aug 6, 2010)

Well, I lost this colony. 48 hours ago I noticed that most of the bees were gone. I opened it today and found very few bees, no queen, no eggs, no living larvae or pupae and some limited capped brood. Small hive beetles were present but not in any large numbers. I had also seen a few Varroa earlier but, again, not in large numbers.

So, do I need to do anything to the brood frames to "clean them up" or just freeze them and repopulate in the Spring? I also have a honey super that is about half full that I'll freeze and put back into business come spring.

This is my only hive, so I have no viable colony to share any resources with.

Suggestions?


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Freeze the frames then store sealed in the super, tape the bottom and cover, seal every opening, bugs can get through plastic bags, but put everything between the comb and pests you can. I do not think Bert Kelly treats his hives or runs truly hygeinic queens. He might get them from Noel too. I get our package bees for class from Noel and we have not had any problems in two years.


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## Pilgarlic56 (Aug 6, 2010)

Thanks. Noel?


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Noel Blanchet, Blanchet Apiary, 10002 Ida St., Riverview, FL 33569. Queens and package bees


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## Thunder9 (Dec 4, 2010)

Hi, I'm a first year bee keeper. I was told I should have no problems with my new hives. I have almost the same symptoms you have mentioned. Found many bees on the ground in front of the hive wondering around aimlessly. Many dead. Many with deformed wings. This was in November. Ordered Apilife Var and started treating. Finished now. Not sure what the outcome will be. Wish I would have stayed on top of things better.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Thunder9 said:


> I was told I should have no problems with my new hives.


Just wonder why somebody would tell you that? It's definately what people want to hear, but not nessecarily the truth.


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## Pilgarlic56 (Aug 6, 2010)

Thunder9 said:


> Wish I would have stayed on top of things better.


Me, too, Thunder. But I don't feel bad about it, I've had it happen with other rewarding hobbies. At first the learning curve is steep if only because of the quantity of new information, but as we persist much of it becomes second nature. I know that if I read and practice and seek good counsel that will happen with beekeeping. I can't begin to list all that I've learned this year, but foremost among them would be overwintering: i) get the sugar off the entrance, ii) reduce the entrance, iii) don't overharvest in the Autumn. Hygiene: i) monitor pests quantitatively, ii) maintain SHB traps in the hive always, iii) requeen if possible at the first signs of decline, iv) use some powdered sugar. General practice: i) look for, find and make note of the following at each hive box inspection: Queen, eggs, larvae, pupae and capped brood (noting quantity and pattern).

If I can apply these lessons and disciplines faithfully in year two I'll have accomplished my goals. I'm eager to install a new package and get going and, with plenty of frozen, drawn comb, the new crew will be off to a flying start.

As a confirmed, lifelong serial hobbyist I will say that this one is among the most rewarding for me.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I'd go with most of that with one eception, it's not nessecary to see the queen each time.

Just look at a comb or two of brood and that tells you what you need to know about the queen. I work with (help) a lot of newbies with bees, and it's amazing how often I'm having to deal with situations where they have killed the queen. This is because they go through the brood nest unessecarily trying to find the queen and end up killing it.

Once you know what you NEED to do, and just do that, the hive can be run with minimal disturbance.


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