# Multiple eggs, what are they trying to tell me this time?



## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Hey fellows,

I have the one hive that gives me trouble all the time. First no brood, then I added a couple of frames of larvae and eggs, nothing. Then I added a frame with a queen cell on it. Last chance I tell them...

Today I go and check, and TaDa!, there are some eggs! But wait, there are as many as four eggs in some of the cells. And I still couldn't find the queen, though that isn't an uncommon thing for me.

What could this be, I ask noone in particular, while standing there with a puzzled look upon my face, bees merrily buzzing about my head.

My guess is that a queen bee would not do such a thing. Is this correct?

If so, do I have laying worker girls?

If that is then the case, what would the proper procedure be to follow at this point?

I took the liberty of pulling all the comb with capped honey while I was in there, and left them with partially filled ones and any nectar/pollen frames they have. 

I also split a very, very strong hive today. Its my favorite one. In total I filled 3 eight frame boxes with egg, larvae and brood. and supers with pollen, nectar, honey, and a couple of empty frames each.

I am inclined to take the trouble hive, divide it into three supers and using newspaper adding all those bees to the three splits. Would this be an appropriate idea?

Thanks for the help!

Regards,
Albert


----------



## Keith Benson (Feb 17, 2003)

"Today I go and check, and TaDa!, there are some eggs! But wait, there are as many as four eggs in some of the cells. And I still couldn't find the queen, though that isn't an uncommon thing for me."

Sounds like you may have laying workers. Some younger queens will lay more than one egg in a cell, but that usually sorts itself out shortly. 

Keith


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'd look thoroughy for a queen. It may be laying workers. If you continue to see that many I'd be pretty sure it's laying workers.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm


----------



## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

*Thanks Again Fellows*

Guys,

Thanks for the answers, I thought that might be the case. 

Now what are those eggs going to hatch into? Drones I would venture, assuming that since they are not mated, it would be a drone.

What do y'all think I should do? If I check again and can't find the queen, should I combine it with the splits, or try to give them another couple of frames of eggs and larvae? They've already been given 5 frames.

The interesting thing is that there are plenty of bees in the hive, when I shook one super, one half of a volleyball sized clump of bees assembled in the empty super I knocked them into.

Well thanks again!
Albert


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Now what are those eggs going to hatch into?

If the workers hve their way they try to clean them out before the hatch but once you have a LOT of laying workers they can't keep up anymore.

> Drones I would venture, assuming that since they are not mated, it would be a drone.

Exactly.

>What do y'all think I should do? If I check again and can't find the queen, should I combine it with the splits, or try to give them another couple of frames of eggs and larvae? 

I gave the link to my laying worker advice above.

>They've already been given 5 frames.

Sequentially? All at once? They may be rearing a queen.


----------



## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Wouldn't simply putting a caged queen with them solve this problem after the queen's pharmones are passed through the hive? Or do laying workers require a bit more attention?


----------



## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

>Wouldn't simply putting a caged queen with them solve this problem

Requeening a laying worker hive in the conventional manner rarely works.

In the past I've just shaken them out. I once made the mistake of trying to do a newspaper combine with a queenright hive and they killed the queen and I ended up with 2 hives of laying workers. Michael Bush's site has about the best advice for dealing with laying workers that you're going to find.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Wouldn't simply putting a caged queen with them solve this problem after the queen's pharmones are passed through the hive? Or do laying workers require a bit more attention?
Reply With Quote

Read this:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm


----------



## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

First there are some questions that need to be answered. How long was this hive without eggs? How long between when you noticed no eggs, and then saw some? Laying workers take time to develop....they don't just appear overnight or within a couple weeks of the queen disappearing....it takes time.

Another question...how many eggs to a cell? And where are they in relation to the bottom of the cell? If they are in the bottom, then chances are this is a new queen learning to lay.

I would venture a guess that you have a queen that has just completed mating, and she is learning how to control her egg laying....this also takes time. I would venture this guess because you stated that you placed a frame of eggs and open brood in the hive and they didn't make queen cells.

Egg placement within the cell will tell you alot about the critter laying the eggs. If they are placed on the side of the cell wall this would indicate a bee with a shorter abdonmen(sp) laid that egg...which could indicate a laying worker, or a very small queen. When egg placement is in the very bottom of the cell, it could only be placed there by a queen, whether mated or unmated. A new queen can also lay a spotty pattern when just starting out. So it is always best to watch for a week or two to see how the brood pattern progresses, and if in that time you deciede to hedge your bet, just put in a frame of open brood and eggs every week for a few weeks and see if they start queen cells.


----------



## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

good points peggjam!


----------



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I have had some success by taking away the laying worker hive and replacing it with a queenright nuc (in a full box) or smaller hive. I then shake out the laying worker hive well away from the stand. The returning bees are disorganized and usually accept the queen and return to normal workers, boosting the nuc or small hive.


----------



## balhanapi (Aug 22, 2006)

I also read somewhere that laying workers can't fly (or fly back to the hive) is that true?


----------



## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

*Laying Workers*

Move the laying worker hive about fifty feet away. Place a new hive with frames on the previously occupied site with a frame of brood and eggs. The workers will leave the drone laying colony and go to their previous "pad". Now the bees are in a non drone laying colony and will make one of the newly hatched eggs into a queen cell. The drone community will be low on bees real quick. Wait a week or two and shake any bees on the ground that still exist in your drone colony--mission accomplished!


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I also read somewhere that laying workers can't fly (or fly back to the hive) is that true?

Yes, you've read it. No, it's not true.


----------



## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Thanks again MB.

I didn't see your link the first time.

Peggjam,
I'll have to check my notes to see the timeline. And I will check the position of the eggs tomorrow PM. I got a new digital camera so I'll try to take some pictures too.

This time I'll make a frame by frame search for the queen, and make sure I'm correct in my assumptions.

Thanks to the rest of y'all for the advise and information.

Regards,
Albert


----------



## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

*It pays to look carefully...*

Hello All!

Yesterday, my son and I went through the hive frame by frame, and with great care and concentration. 

Lotta good that did...

I was going to freeze the frame that had all the multiple eggs and drone cells, so I gave it a sharp rap against the top of the hive, and knocked the majority of the bees off. Then I noticed a good sized patch of covered brood amongst all the drone cells, and though I did register it, the sight of it did not click with me. I flipped it over and lo and behold, there were three capped queen cells. Man, how did I miss it.

I took some pics of them, and did it again today. probably do it again tommorow. 

The frame they built the cells on came from a nuc that got robbed out, and I had put the frame in there to clean out. That was on 3/22. That Nuc was originally set up on 3/19 with new laid eggs, larvae and covered brood all on that one frame.

I'm hoping it all works out. 

Thanks,
Albert


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I gave it a sharp rap against the top of the hive

I'd give them another frame of open brood. A sharp rap on queen cells will often harm the queen larvae, especially if it's capped.


----------



## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

MB's right about damaging queen cells with a rap or a bang of the frame. The cells are most fragile when capped, and should be handled gently. 

I would also suggest giving them a fresh frame of eggs and open brood, but would also suggest desposing of the queen cells so they will start new ones. Make sure they have plenty of food and fresh pollen as well.


----------



## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

*From the: A Fool and His Head are Soon Parted, Dept.*

And right you all were.

All three cells were torn open and emptied. I'm pulling yet another frame of eggs, larvae and brood and trying one more time.

Albert


----------



## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I have had many queens that start out with multiple eggs. I wouldn't treat a hive as a laying worker hive unless I start finding a lot of drone cappings on worker cells. From what you describe you should have headed off the development of a laying worker when you put the eggs and brood in the hive and certainly when the queen cell was present. I would just give them another frame of brood and wait a couple of weeks. If you have normal capped worker brood by then, treat them like any other hive that needs to build up.


----------

