# C02 and wintering bees indoors



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

No personal expertise on my end, but Randy Oliver has a page that discusses (in part) CO[SUB]2[/SUB] levels in wintering colonies:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/old-bees-cold-bees-no-bees-part-1/


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

I have heard it is better to keep it under 2000 ppm. This morning I checked mine, the fans have been idling in my shed for the past week and a half it is sitting at 950-1050ppm. When it is warm and the fans run full speed the Co2 is the same as out side air around 500 ppm


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

Keeping it under 2000 ppm makes sense for the humans working in the shed. Definitely humans should not be exposed to more than 5000 ppm for extended periods of time. Headaches, nausea, poor concentration, stale air etc can occur above 2000 ppm.

As far as the bees go, I think this is a nonissue. As per the Randy Oliver article cited by Radar the inside of the cluster can rise as high as 60000 ppm. 2000 ppm seems insignificant.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

This guys shed has been reaching 9000 ppm and having trouble keeping the shed temp up because of the increased air flows to hold the C02 to 2000
I’m thinking there must either be a malfunction in the reading equipment or a problem with exhaust


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

If he's bringing in enough air to make it difficult to keep the shed temps up, my guess would be a malfunction in the reading equipment.


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## rastajey (Jan 24, 2016)

Ian said:


> I had an inquiry asking about C02 levels in a wintering shed and at what level exactly we need to ensure an increase of air exchange.
> My shed is very basic and still without C02 monitors so I could not lead any advice.
> I know many here do use C02 monitors and have been for a few years now.
> 
> Can you lend me your experience and expertise on this issue please.


Hear in Québec we are lucky enough to have and engineer devoted to beekeeping paid by provincial government.
he design many wintering facilities and done many expérience over time.
While chit chatting with him after a conference he told me to not bother with CO2 ppm because CO2 do not affect bee.
they once put a beehive in an air tight seal drum to test how much co2 bee can handle. they did nt find because of their experiment set up but they kept the colony in for three month and reach over 200 000 ppm co2 and colony was doing really well. for him the key point in wintering facilities is light (need to bee pitch dark) temperature ( the steadiness of the temperature 5.5 c is ideal) and a very low but steady air stream ( no disturbance with fan going full throttle On and Off all time)

hope it will help


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is a study that suggests high levels of CO[SUB]2[/SUB], while not necessarily immediately fatal, can negatively affect bee longevity:
https://books.google.com/books?id=z...6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=20%co2 bees hive&f=false

.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

200,000 ppm is extremely high
I’m told high CO2 will send the colony into a dormant type state, 
200,000 ppm must be close to death! 
If a colonies tolerance is that high, 10,000 ppm is peanuts


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

200,000 ppm is 20%. That means that O2 levels would be down to 16.7% which is dangerously low.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

This topic interests me, as I am building a new wintering barn and honey house. I have been scheming about how to utilize the heat from the bees to heat the main honeyhouse area during winter. I will use the wintering room as a hot room during extracting. 

In my old shed, I heated my hot room with a window air conditioner which also cooled my extracting area, and now I am hoping I can do similar in my new shop. I am installing radiant infloor heating, and the slabs between the 2 parts of the building will be thermally isolated. I have been scheming about using the differences in tempratures to supply a geothermal heat pump. Have any of you guys seen this type effeciency utilized in a wintering/hotroom/shop/extracting room?

If I could cool my bees by chilling the slab, would a small exhaust fan keep the CO2 levels in check? Am I looking for an expensive free lunch that likely does not exist?


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## maxbees (Jan 17, 2018)

How much i know bees dont have problems with cold temp.


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## rastajey (Jan 24, 2016)

I have been scheming about using the differences in tempratures to supply a geothermal heat pump. Have any of you guys seen this type effeciency utilized in a wintering/hotroom/shop/extracting room?

I don't have a clue about the cooling capacity of geothermal technology maybe it's promising. in the other hand theory beneath refrigeration is quite simple and easy access. Here we use bee heat to keep a small green house from freezing during winter with a system similar we use in the honey house for the hot room. this one exemple it would be the same for your shop.


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

Allen Martens said:


> If he's bringing in enough air to make it difficult to keep the shed temps up, my guess would be a malfunction in the reading equipment.


It's my good friend who made the inquiry with Ian. At the time we were locked in a week where the temp didn't go beyond - 25 and was as cold as -37 at night. He was having trouble keeping his Co2 down to what he thought was necessary. If he brought in too much fresh air his barn would get down to 0c...which is obviously better the. Having them outside. 

We realized most guys don't even monitor co2 and are continually bringing in some fresh air. But if their building is holding 4c or more at weeks of -30c with no break, then perhaps their fans are running so low that the co2 is very high. Does it even matter? Fresh air is very important obviously, but how fresh does it need to be?


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## Brian Suchan (Apr 6, 2005)

B&E said:


> It's my good friend who made the inquiry with Ian. At the time we were locked in a week where the temp didn't go beyond - 25 and was as cold as -37 at night. He was having trouble keeping his Co2 down to what he thought was necessary. If he brought in too much fresh air his barn would get down to 0c...which is obviously better the. Having them outside.
> 
> We realized most guys don't even monitor co2 and are continually bringing in some fresh air. But if their building is holding 4c or more at weeks of -30c with no break, then perhaps their fans are running so low that the co2 is very high. Does it even matter? Fresh air is very important obviously, but how fresh does it need to be?


I know it is different inside a building vs outside. But by far the best bees in the spring are the ones that were covered in snow all winter. Doesn't happen very often here, just bitter cold. No fresh air under the snow


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

B&E said:


> Does it even matter? Fresh air is very important obviously, but how fresh does it need to be?


Personally I don't thing it does. The CO2 levels bees are subjected to inside the cluster are mind blowing and the bees seem to live longer as a result if I remember correctly (as Brian mentioned about snow cover).

CO2 level to humans in the shed is a much greater concern. Humans are long gone before bees become affected.

Don't remember the ppm offhand. Researched this sometime ago.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I’ve not only been curious but I’ve been asked for input from so many I bought an indoor monitoring device.
Soon as I get it I’m curious to see what I have going on here


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Brian, how’s the winter shed been working for you? Have you been able to keep those CO2 levels a bit more static than your friends facility?
I’m thinking his issue might be within the actual air exchange within the mixing chamber.


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

Been working great actually. We have the exact same system. Difference is his bees are 500km north of here and I've got a great Lake north and south of me to keep things more moderate. A cold night here is -18c or so with lots of wind.

His system doesn't have any issues. The challenge is that when it is nearly - 40, it seems to be impossible to keep the building warm and not have co2 rise. I actually don't think it can be done with any system.... Which is why I'm so curious what yours would be when it's that cold. Unless you sacrifice indoor temp for fresh air. 

I'm not convinced either is a bad decision.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

In the Biology lab, a lime water solution(CaOH2) was used to absorb CO2. It absorbs the CO2 and turns into "Limestone"

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

My CO2 monitor has been lost somewhere in transit with Amazon ,
Refund, reorder, still waiting ... 

My fans have been on low for weeks , curious what my CO2 levels are


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

I will be curious also. when my fans idle for over a week I get to around 1500-1800ppm


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## B&E (Dec 27, 2011)

That's very low. When I bring in minimal air due to really cold weather, I get over 2500 in a hour or so. Lots of bees in there.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

That could be Brian, this was my first year in my new shed and it was only filled to 40 cft per hive. Next winter it will be 20 cft per hive. But even filled to half capacity the room never got cold even with a week that stayed around -10-5 F. It is very well insulated ( closed cell foam) wonder if that is helping hold heat and then kicking the fans on more.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

I found this thread by reading all of Ian’s topics. Love his YouTube channel. Anyways as I was reading this I started to wonder if anybody noticed or read about brood production increasing co2? It’d be interesting to note if there was a measurable difference if hives started brooding up for some reason.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Good question 
I just got my C02 monitor
I’ll be testing the shed here on


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