# EFB dilemma



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

is it possible to move it to one of the other apiaries and position it away from and facing another direction than the rest. another poster reports the commercially available test kits are backordered at this time. sending a sample to beltsville might be the prudent thing to do. i personally wouldn't be comfortable with pretty sure on the diagnosis. if efb and from your description i would say that you are dealing with a less virulent strain than i am, but these bad bugs have a way of morphing into even worse bugs. i would be uncomfortable with the risk this one colony poses to the rest and if it's the only one i would consider destruction by fire.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

If you can’t quarantine it to get a proper diagnosis and cure, I would say putting it down would be a prudent thing to do, eh? Any farmer w/ any other livestock would do the same I’m sure.


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

Yeah I pretty much knew destroying them was the answer but was hoping for something I hadn't thought of yet. I'm pretty sure it's EFB, I'll post some pics if I get the chance to take them. Should of had a test kit on hand just in case, I will in the future.

How crazy do I need to be about isolating the the supers and frames? I won't use them for a few years but is it ok to run them through the extractor and then clean it really well before doing the other supers three weeks later? 

Also after extracting what's the best way to get the comb clean? I usually put the supers back on the hive or just leave them out to be cleaned by the bees, obviously neither of those is an option. One is brand new combs on plastic foundation and the other is a mix of older comb on plastic and wax foundations.

Best way/most humane way to kill a hive? Dry ice, soapy water? I would like to kill it on the stand by the others then carry frames straight to fire pit and scape out combs and burn. I would like to do it at dusk so I get most and they don't fly into other hives.

Will two years in storage be sufficient time for the equipment to sit before reusing? I plan on putting the four boxes, lid and bottom board in my attic where there will be extreme heat and cold. Maybe the temp extremes will help clear the EFB? Is it ok to try and save the frames if I scrape the wax?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

all good questions mcon but unfortunately their is not a uniform agreed upon standard operating procedure. 

especially when it comes to reusing equipment the guidance is all over the map.

what i am doing at this time, which is a royal pita, is spending hours upon hours trying to salvage close to 400 frames of drawn comb by very carefully 'pressure' washing it with a garden hose, drying it good with a fan, carefully misting 3% bleach, drying it good with a fan, carefully misting bt aizawai, drying it good with a fan, stacking and storing for now screen tight.

the frames i am 'sanitizing' in this way have no honey or pollen in them, just empty comb. i'm treating the boxes ect. the same way.

i have engaged a number of folks who are looking at the feasibility of building a device to sterilize equipment via radiation or fumigation. 

beltsville has offered to test my 'sanitized' comb for the presence of the bacteria. 

i gave 5 frames of 'sanitized' comb to a uninfected caught swarm this past weekend end to see if i could provoke an infection by doing so. time will tell on that one.

it's one of those we're all learning as we go deals.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

(should have read 'uniformly agreed upon')

as far as euthanizing, most colonies i have done were dwindled down to a single box of bees. i put them in the deep freezer, wait about 12 hours, open the freezer just to and take the tops off, and give it another 24 hours.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I did an exercise of mentally trying to envision every move involved in cleaning up frames; every move, and the resulting potential for spreading the bacteria. It simply was not possible in my mind, without the potential of making things worse. Boxes can be very well scorched and I have risked that.

I have some boxes and frames stored from deadouts this past winter that may have been due to suffocation. With those I will test the water very carefully. One of that group is queenless but raising healthy donated brood from my only other apparently health colony. Last summer some time was the last signs of active EFB but the reoccurence possibility hangs over me. 

From 13 colonies to one and a half in little more than a year.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

crofter said:


> I did an exercise of mentally trying to envision every move involved in cleaning up frames; every move, and the resulting potential for spreading the bacteria. It simply was not possible in my mind, without the potential of making things worse. Boxes can be very well scorched and I have risked that.


no kidding. i would have to nuke my wife, my house and everything in it, along 3 vehicles to be totally on the safe side frank.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

(just kidding about the vehicles  )


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Since I am the origin of your anxiety let me say this: I would not euthanize a hive w/o a positive tests, either from Beltsville or one of the field tests. And even then I would probably treat a colony that was still strong and ready to recover.

EFB Field tests are in stock at Betterbee.com right now.

In the meantime, I would slowly ease this colony away from the other colonies -slightly rotating the entrance away from the others to avoid putting foragers at risk of joining other colonies and then shifting if it slowly away. Put robbing screens on the others (and this one if it is weak.)

Practice extremely diligent cross-contamination prevention on every colony, in every yard where you may already spread the bacteria -while waiting for the test.

I would also treat with antibiotics. I did with mine and mine are now OK. Don't confuse the long-term issue with contaminated equipment and long term prognosis for the hive if is treated and moved away from the contamination.

I think antibiotics have gotten a bad rap when people treat and then leave the bees in the same disease-contaminated environment and then complain the antibiotics didn't work because the bees got sick again. Well, duh!

Getting a VFD for the antibiotics is a PITA, I admit. But the actual treating is easy to do. I chose to do all hives in the yard on the theory that I had already passed it along by using normal beekeeping practices before I realized I had a problem. (My bad!)

But if you are collecting honey there is a 42-day withdrawal period after antibiotics before you can super for harvest again, so perhaps in a honey yard treating only the sick ones is the best choice. Delaying or skipping treating for the asymptomatic production colonies.

Everybody who has to deal with this, needs to decide for themselves, but don't needlessly spook yourself. And don't do anything drastic w/o confirmation that's what you're really dealing with.

Good luck!

EFB sucks (but that may not really be your problem.)

Nancy'


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

Couple of test kits on the way from betterbee priority mail. Had my son extract the two supers and for now will just place back on and wait for results. Cleaned extractor with pressure washer and sanitizer. Also going to send a sample to Beltsville. It's been like this all spring just reading all of these EFB posts I panicked and started to think I should have tested right away but honestly always thought it wasn't that big of a deal until reading about others struggles with it. Not just yours enjambres, which I always find your posts very detailed and helpful. Thanks for the replies I'll update with results. -Mike


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> (just kidding about the vehicles )


 I was more worried about your wife.

Has anyone thought about temperature based sterilizing? I wonder if sustained temps of say 130 degrees would be sufficient to eliminate EFB? If so, I have a greenhouse that can easily reach 130 degrees on a sunny day. I store unused beekeeping equipment along one wall of the greenhouse because it totally prevents wax moth damage. I do not let the temperature get above 120 under normal conditions.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Fusion_power said:


> Has anyone thought about temperature based sterilizing?


i've not come across that dar, but it's all on the table for investigation. the prof at a&m is also looking into uv exposure.


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## roberto487 (Sep 22, 2012)

You should send it to the USDA, this year they seem to have a quick turn around. I sent my sample on a monday and got the result by that Friday. I was actually shocked at the turn around.


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## roberto487 (Sep 22, 2012)

mcon672 said:


> Couple of test kits on the way from betterbee priority mail. Had my son extract the two supers and for now will just place back on and wait for results. Cleaned extractor with pressure washer and sanitizer. Also d to send a sample to Beltsville. It's been like this all spring just reading all of these EFB posts I panicked and started to think I should have tested right away but honestly always thought it wasn't that big of a deal until reading about others struggles with it. Not just yours enjambres, which I always find your posts very detailed and helpful. Thanks for the replies I'll update with results. -Mike


As I have posted before, last year actually. It could be something else that has similar symptoms as EFB. Last year I had an EFB scared, did a field and a lab test and they were negative. This season, I thought I one of my home hive had EFB, but I was more relaxed about it (dark brood, nicked cells, droopy wet dead broods, not ropy, and on). This prompted me to send a sample of dead broods to the USDA in Beltsville and the results came back negative and got it back on the 4th day. I still don't know what caused the broods to die on that hive but I believe it is turning around nicely. It is great to know that my overreaction did not push me to eliminate my hives.


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

Well EFB confirmed by test. Ugh. The hives population is definitely less but still not terrible. I'll include a few photos I took of larvae in various stages of melting. Wish I would have ordered the early version of the bee guru app just to test it out on this hive. Any suggestions on how to eliminate this hive on the stand without spreading efb everywhere? I'm thinking dry ice and a large garden garbage bag.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

excellent pictures, good luck


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## trapperbob (May 27, 2007)

I would close it up and burn it to the ground. EFB is nothing to play around with. Over the years I had two hives with it I sent tests in and confirmed they had it. But out of precaution destroyed them . Both tests did come back positive. The way I see it it's cheaper and safer to act on the premise I have it and save the rest of my yard. That being said I've also noticed that before they got it the two hives appeared to be getting weak. I just believe with EFB being proactive is the prudent choice


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

"We began the NYS Beekeeper Tech Team sampling three days ago and already have identified more European foulbood than usual for this time of year (we've found it in in 13 out of 18 yards so far, in various locations across the state)."

from: https://www.facebook.com/DyceLab/videos/378260486130249/

the reports keep coming in. practice vigilance, be prepared to get a quick diagnosis, have a plan of action in place. the 'new' efb appears to spread to other colonies very quickly, may not be turned around by the time antibiotics are used, and it is looking more and more like the bacteria can linger for a long time in equipment.

i am going to sticky this thread along with the others pertaining to recent efb outbreaks to call for everyone's attention to know and understand this enemy.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Too bad all these links come up face book, a place I have never made the leap to participate at.
Cheers
gww


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

gww said:


> Too bad all these links come up face book, a place I have never made the leap to participate at.
> Cheers
> gww


I do not have any connection to Facebook but I can open the links without any commitments or acceptance. I am using Firefox browser.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Frank
I am using the cheapest lap top that I could find and it is 6 or 7 years old. I don't have the ambition to learn new computer stuff but just incase I change, thanks for the tip.
gww


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

Well things are getting worse. I went to another yard 45 minutes away and found two hives there that appear to have efb as well. They look just like the confirmed efb hive. Now I don't know what I'm going to do. I need to go through my main apiary and check all 22 hives. If it's just the three (really starting to doubt that now) I'll euthanize and burn but if it's more I think I might give OTC a try. I can't euthanize and burn 40 hives, most are double deeps with two supers. That's a lot of equipment, at least it is to me. Really bumming right now. I won't be able to check the rest of the hives until Tuesday because of schedule and weather. I'll try to update when I know more. 

-Mike


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

...and you won't be able to use antibiotics with honey supers on.

i am currently running a test with a non-infected colony (a very robust and grabbing a high gear caught swarm) to which i have introduced frames from euthanized efb colonies after 'disinfecting' them with bleach. so far no sick larvae, but i'll have a better sense of it next weekend.

efb is a hellava mess.


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

Yes I'll have to pull supers first. Or maybe just all supers on hives that show signs of efb and treat them, then after flow treat the rest since they are still packing it in. 

Can any vet issue the VFD? There's a local vet that I know although I haven't talked to her in many years I think she would help me out if I asked. Is there a form or something I need to print out so she can fill it out? I would order from Kelly or Mann lake probably. Anything I need to know about ordering? I really don't know what my next step is going to be, I guess it all depends on the next inspection. I don't have any idea where this came from.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

yes, any willing vet can issue the vfd. i let mann lake and my vet work out the details with each other, they did it via fax.

i found out after the fact about 7 (mostly new) beekeepers within flying distance of my yards that imported bees from out of state only to have most of those colonies collapse for reasons unknown.

i've been careful not to blame any of them in particular, but we haven't seen efb around here in decades.

i suspect some of the efb that is popping up here and there is related to the package bee industry using shook bees after almond pollination to make up packages and nucs, and distributing them all over the country to meet what is now a very high demand for bees.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

squarepeg said:


> using shook bees after almond pollination to make up packages and nucs, and distributing them all over the country to meet what is now a very high demand for bees.


no doubt you are correct, now with the correct amount of publicity maybe next year the demand will drop:kn:


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

wildbranch2007 said:


> now with the correct amount of publicity maybe next year the demand will drop...


i'm not holding my breath. everybody and their brother are convinced they need to 'save the bees'. demand far exceeds supply around here and most likely everywhere else. can't blame the commercials for wanting to make an easier buck than bulk honey prices are bringing.

this ship has sailed. i've gone into full defensive mode.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

I was successfully able to get a VFD today. The vet was very willing to issue a VFD. I emphasized that this is an emergency, that the bees have an incredibly contagious bacteria. 

Mann lake has a form that they emailed to me last evening when I called. I was responsible for getting that form completed.

Mann lake prefers that the form is sent directly to them from the vet.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

McCon.

Here's how it progressed for me.

14 days ago I found absolutely no issues with brood frame, but it's probably such that one of the colonies had early symptoms that I missed.

7 days ago I found one of my hives to have quite advanced EFB symptoms, I ordered a vita test kit. I noticed there were two more than had similar, less advanced symptoms.

2 days ago, my strongest hive that was in perfect condition 14 days ago now had significant evidence of spotty brood pattern. That was my strongest hive, it succumbed within 2 weeks.

IMO - do whatever is in your power to get OTC.


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

I was contacted yesterday by a beekeeper in Wheeling, she lost four of her five hives to efb this year and number five has it now. She's just giving up for this year. Another beek from Morristown OH also texted looking for advice on how to deal with efb. I referred both to this site and told them what little I've learned. Not sure what's going on but it seems like an outbreak around here . Called my buddy with twenty or so hives about a half hour away and told him to.be on the lookout.


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

No idea where this is coming from. My two infected yards have their own set of hi e tools, jackets, and smokers. The yard at the farm does have commercial hives on both sides of it and I know he imports packages every year to replace winter losses(he is treatment free). I don't know of any nearby beeks to my main yard bit that doesn't mean there aren't any. I'm wondering if there was a bad package shipment that came into the area?


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

Good news, called the vet nearest me first and he filled out VFD no problem. Now to order. Should I get Terra pro from Mann lake?


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

McCon, congrats.

I got terra-pro powder, 10lb bucket. 

Are there any other products in the USA to purchase?

I noticed that they only allow the purchase of one quantity of Terra-pro with each directive. 

They sell terra-pro patties, and terra pro powder. Anyone know which is more effective?


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

I got Terra pro powder, two ten pound buckets. I wasn't sure how much to order, hopefully that's enough to treat fortyish hives. I've been down the last few days with my illness but as soon as I'm able I will treat the obviously infected hives, already pulled their supers. Waiting on a motor kit for my maxant 3100 and my son to have some time off from work then I'll pull the rest and treat them. 

Spring flow is done, they're on the clover now. 
I should have a little over two months to treat before fall flow begins. I read at least six weeks after last treatment before adding aupers again, is that right? I don't want any antibiotics in my honey.


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## username00101 (Apr 17, 2019)

Two 10 lb buckets should be more than enough.


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## mcon672 (Mar 5, 2015)

Update. After going through every hive only four had it. My wife checked her notes and it turns out all four hives originated from a trapped swarm from last summer. All of my bees originated from trapped swarms. The two at the farm were early spring splits this year from the original trapped swarm hive that was infected. The other infected nuc at the home yard was a split from the original made at the same time, original was getting ready to swarm. So I spread it to my other yard. 

IF I continue to trap swarms I will use my yard on the PA border as a quarantine yard from now on. I was just bringing them to whatever yard as I trapped them. I have four trapped swarms still in the traps (10 frame deeps) in trees from this spring. I only put out four traps due to health reasons this year.

So i treated all hives three times as a precaution and plan on treating the remaining three infected hives five times at least. I destroyed one nuc that had it bad. The three remaining are doing quite well and brood patterns are looking much better. All of the others show no signs of efb at all even the hive right next to the patient zero hive. I chose to only treat the asymptomatic hives three times so I would have nine weeks between treatment and the return of supers. The three remaining hives will not be used for honey this fall and will be treated at least two more times. Hopefully this is as bad as it gets for me, we will see. Now it's time to start mite treatments with OAV.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I have found Mann Lake Terra patty to be very effective.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

excellent update mcon, many thanks.

very cool how you were able to trace the source and spread, way to go with your note keeping!

good luck with your fall flow.


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