# When to add pollen patty ?



## Cynthia (Sep 9, 2012)

Hi,
It's my first winter as backyard beekeeper in zone 5b. I've read it's good to add a pollen patty at this critical juncture, so bees won't starve. Haven't opened hive all winter - too cold! But can hear them buzzing and have seen cleansing flight activity when visiting the hive (almost daily). When can I think about opening the hive to add a pollen patty or two? Does it have to be a 55 or plus degree day for a quick pollen patty drop? Any tips on how/when to do this is much appreciated. (Fingers crossed). Thanks!


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Don't apply the patties untill the bees will emerge with fresh pollen coming in. The bees can raise brood on suppliment but when the new bee emerges, it needs real pollen to eat to complete its healthy developement. I am pushing that rule myself this spring, but good research has shown that you can hurt your bees by feeding it too early. It is not too early to check and make sure your bees have lots of honey! They will start using carbs fast now that they are probably starting to raise brood. A lot of fine colonies starve to death in the spring.


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## Cynthia (Sep 9, 2012)

Thanks very much Vance. If it's not too early to check for honey stores - I don't know how else to check honey stores - other than opening the hive. Do I risk harming them by opening the hive in this cold weather (high 30s/low 40s)?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Low forties without wind is fine to pop the lid and look for frames of honey toward the outside. Can you lift the colony from the back and see if it feels heavy? If the colony is so full of bees as some of mine are, it would be hard to see how much honey was in the outer frames. If there is little wind or your location is sheltered, you could gently pull an outside frame and look for capped honey. If you find some, you are OK for now. I chose the easy way and just put a newspaper on the top bars and poured on some dry sugar for insurance. Good luck with it.


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## Cynthia (Sep 9, 2012)

Thank you agin! I'm assuming you put the newspaper with dry sugar on the brood box frames and not on the honey super frames....will definitely give it a try.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Vance G said:


> Don't apply the patties untill the bees will emerge with fresh pollen coming in. The bees can raise brood on suppliment but when the new bee emerges, it needs real pollen to eat to complete its healthy developement. .


Hmm, good luck with that.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Mr. Jarrett, you are a commericial and certainly know more than I in my small hobbyist sphere. I said what I believe to be true from reading studies and following what I thought was a best practice. Could you please explain the error? What is your experience? Is your suppliment good enough to raise brood on all by itself?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Vance G said:


> . Could you please explain the error? What is your experience?


Vance, first remember that all beekeeping is local. When feeding sub "most" beekeepers are trying to time a honey flow, split or pollination to the size of there hives, so they are feeding sub so to size up the hive at a certain time. Hope this helps and makes sence.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Good answer Keith, I was just going to say something similar, for me feeding pollen sub well before natural pollen is available gets the bees going with brood when they might not be rearing any at all, that is because in my wintering setup the bees end up in the top of three medium boxes at this time of year, and that box usually only has honey or syrup in it and no pollen, and with the cold weather we will still be having the bees can't go anywhere else in the hive to obtain pollen which is in the lower two boxes. John


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

John when were u planning to add patties to your bees. We have a very similar wintering situation and I'm thinking probably the second or third week in march based on longer forecasting


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

the doc, actually I just put them on last week, may seem a bit early but I am planning to do lots of splits this spring so hoping to get brood rearing going. Most of my hives that survived came through with small clusters anyway, so not sure how much these patties are going to help initially because the bees can only cover so much brood. John


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

ok interesting. I have a similar plan for increase. I will take a look at them this weekend. Their clusters were good sized last I looked about 4 wks ago but that is like ancient history. Will let you know what i see. Could add them next weekend potentially


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Often hear pollen sub creates short lived bees. Short is kind of indefinite. Poor quality sub, say just a basic brewer's yeast and soy flour with little natural pollen available shortens life by what percent? Is that figure based on studies or observation? 
I assume poor sub shortens more than good sub. Assume the higher portion of diet that is good quality pollen fills in the gaps in the sub.
At some point high quality sub must equal or exceed low quality pollen or a lack of pollen. Many short lived bees in a pre forage situation may be preferable to a few long lived bee. 
Looking for thoughts.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

I figure shorter lived bees will produce more than the bees I won't get without feeding.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Saltybee said:


> Often hear pollen sub creates short lived bees. Poor quality sub, Looking for thoughts.


Saltybee, great questions here. First you need a well rounded sub mainly proteins & fats. Salty, you need 10 amino acids for the make up of protein & 5-8% on your fat levels. Becareful not to get sucker in to the fluff, some bee suppliers call there stuff the "gold standard of pollen sub" and only list 9 amino acids they leave out the most important one. So don't be fooled by tons of ads.
A good sub should list protein level, fat level, PH level.


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## Joel_T (Feb 8, 2013)

I’ve no experience – am starting 2 hives April, so, sorry to interrupt with some ignorance but…. I read that syrup’s a poor substitute for honey - among other things because mites and other threats “prefer” the pH of syrup over honey, and I continually hear criticism of pollen substitutes. Why are the substitutes standard operating procedure instead of somehow using the real thing?


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

You will see more than one beekeeping philosophy in forums, as well as beeks with different goals.

Different beeks with different philosophies and different goals means many different ways to do things right...depending on your goals.

One guy wants to maximize honey production, another wnats ot maximize bee number increase his apiary or sell bees, and still another wants to raise bees as naturally as he can.

Many fixate on an ideal situation and refuse to acknowledge practical practical reasons ot vary from an ideal.

For instance, using operating a car as an analogy, one guy might say keeping a car in tune results in best gas mileage and lower cost of operation.

That's true.
But getting a $30 tune up every week to save $10 in fuel defeats the purpose.

My goal is to raise a healthy colony of bees that require no drug or psticide treatments ot do well, and require little or no feeding.

Look at my last comment on this thread:
"I figure shorter lived bees will produce more than the bees I won't get without feeding."

I know that if brood rearing starts earlier, I will get more generations of bees before honeyflow, resulting in thousands more bees.
Those many thousands of bees might not live as long, but will raise more net brood, collect more net pollen, and make more net honey than fewer, longer lived bees.

More pollen and honey stored over winter means a much higher likelihood of overwinter survival.
It means i can raise more brood, and have more nurse bees to care for them.

With more bees and more food, I might be able to make more nuc hives, and increase my hive count.
With more bees, I am more likely to be able to harvest more honey, and still leave my bees healthy with plenty of honey to overwinter w/o feeding them.

SO I put pollen sub patties on around Valentine Day.
So long as I keep them on until bees are bringing in natural pollen, I'll get one or two more brood cycles worth of bees before honey flow.

On the other hand, if my goal was to maximize the health of individual bees instead of the colony, I wouldn't feed patties, b/c individual bees would not live as long.

If I wanted bees kept without intervention, I'd leave them in a tree and just look at them go in and out, as anything more is an intervention.

If I wanted them to raised in a hive as completely naturally as possible, I'd do no feeding, no swarm management, and in harvesting honey would leave more than think that they need for winter, so that don't have to feed them unnatural feed.

I do feed syrup when needed, but try to manage my hive so that they don't need it.
When I make syrup, I add an acid (vinegar, usually) to adjust the pH closer of honey's...which is about 3.5-6, on average.keeping bees in my region, because:

My bees don't get sick, I haven't had mite problems (though I don't use any miticides), and I am meeting my goals.

If my goals were to maximize profit or to maximize "naturalness" the right way to do things would be different, in order to reach different goals.

I hope that clears some of the confusion.

Be mindful that what works for someone in another place with different goals than yours might not work well for you in your place with your goals at all.

Techniques vary, but general principles are the same:
Keep brood warm in winter and spring.
Split your hive or open the brood nest before they start making swarm cells in spring.
Don't wait until a pest as done mortal damage to a hive you want to live before addressing the problem
Don't starve your bees.
Keep them dry in winter.
Eggs and larvae mean your queen is probably home and healthy
no eggs and larvae often doesn't mean your hive is queenless 
make sure your bees have adequate stores to overwinter before winter sets in.

And don't forget the main rule:
Have fun


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

I disagree...

I have found when I provide pollen supplement, the adult bees consume it and convert it into vitellogenin which is the magic protein of healthy bees. Also buy stimilating vitellogenin production the bees provide your first years crop of new bees such that the young larvae are litterally "swimming" in a pool of royal jelly, which results in healthier bees upon emergance. Of course this is JMHO, but well placed pollen supplement really jumps start brood rearing.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

I think it would be more accurate to say that most pollens are better then most pollen subs.
Some pollens don't have all of the amino acids needed to create the proteins needed to to raise healthy brood, of example.
Sugar syrup is sucrose, and honey is a blend of sucrose, glucose and fructose. 
The acidity (pH) of syrup is easily adjusted to match most honeys.
Its not true that all honeys have a lower pH than sucrose either... rather the _average_ pH of honey is lower than the pH of most sugar syrup...again, by adding an acid such as vinegar to sucrose, you can actually have a a syrup with a _lower_ pH than honey.. and very easily and conveniently, I might add.

Generally I think honey is better feed than sugar syrup, and it is certainly less work. but that doesn't mean syrup is poor feed.

So why feed syrup or pollen?

1) During a drought, when no nectar is flowing and you have a large bee population, it may be necessary to prevent undernourishment or even shortened lifespan from hunger.

2) Pollen might not be available.

3) Feeding protein can build hive population much earlier in the spring resulting in much more pollen and nectar/honey being available for a growing population later in spring, avoiding the need to feed much more syrup or pollen sub than one might otherwise need to during a time of scarcity (b/c more bees are available to gather what _is_ available.)

There are other reason as well, these are just examples of some good ones.

If you had a choice between great food and good food, you's pribably choose great food.

If you had a choice between good food and no food, would it be wise for you to choose to go without and compromise your health?
Of course not.
For the same reason, sometimes less than ideal food is fed to our bees... both by the bees themselves (they'll gather chicken feed when pollen is not available), and their keepers.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

rbees, very well said, good post.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

rbees answer is indeed excellent.

Apparently I stayed up so late that I answered post #16 twice, and one while sleep deprived... lesson learned (sorry)


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Stay sleep deprived. I liked both answers.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Cynthia I just walked outside with short sleeve shirt on and it wasn't horribly cold. I think around 1pm would be an excellent time for you to check the amount of honey you have left in your hive. If its low put on your entrance reducer and dump granulated sugar on top of them. Dont worry about it hitting the bees. Just dont leave them open too long today.


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## Cynthia (Sep 9, 2012)

Thank everyone! Great info as I am just learning! I specifically mentioned that I was a backyard beekeeper because I do not have any intention of growing to more than 2 or 3 hives. I'm ok with letting the bees do their thing (ie swarm) and my goal, like yours Beregondo, is to support healthy colony of bees with no drug or pesticide treatments and require little or no feeding. I'm truly in the "hobbiest" category and enjoy learning about bees. If I get a few jars of honey out of this, I'd be delighted. All that said, I'm not adverse to doing what I can to help the bees out if it means getting them through winter. I've read that this is the time of year that many hives starve to death. I left their full honey super on heading into winter and if adding a pollen patty now through spring will help get them through - then, I'm in! So, is adding a pollen patty and raw sugar in a windless day w/temps around 40 the right thing, for me, to do at this point? I'm struggling with the decision of whether to risk opening the hive in these still cold temps to feed or just leave them be?


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

you will be fine. Just dont leave it open longer than needed to check and feed!


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Cynthia, 

I'm trying to produce as many nucs as I can this year to increase my hive count.
Consequently, i want my bees to build up population as soon as possible so that they can be spit to multiply my numbe of hives as many times as possible.

That's why i am feeding patties.

If I were only wanting to let the bees alone and be healthy, and wasn't worried about getting a crop of honey or of more bees to make more colonies form, I wouldn't be feeding patties.

I'd go out this afternoon or tomorrow, and check how much honey my bees have (Tilt the top box on end and peek up the bottom... see how much honey comb is still closed up..if it is too heavy to tilt this way, it has plenty and you don't need to look).

If they have a couple combs, leave them alone for a couple weeks and check again.

Feeding won't hurt them, and if you are not sure, then put a sheet of poaper on the top bars and pour some sugar on it.

If you decide to give them a patty, it is important to keep giving them patties until they are bringing in pollen on their own, so deciding to start is a little bit of a commitment.


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## Joel_T (Feb 8, 2013)

Thanks for the replys. I especially liked your input Beregondo. Right now I'm pretty much just a sponge soaking up different approaches. I'm listening to everything and trying to find the common ground that pops up between philosophies. I'm only going to have a couple hives and just want to learn, keep things kinda simple and not make things a headache. I just want to try and keep a decent environment for the bees -- any extra honey will be a plus or reward.


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

Beregondo said:


> I figure shorter lived bees will produce more than the bees I won't get without feeding.


Ka-Ching!


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

so Cynthia have you figured out from the pollen sub fight when to put it on? I don't use them, but if your hive is heavy enough, put them on, if they don't need or want they won't use them, two things to remember if they use the pollen they need enough honey to feed the brood so you must monitor it, right now the weather is not warm enough to feed sugar water, and if you stimulate the bees to raise more brood early, the mites are also stimulated and your mite count goes up sooner, so monitor that. good luck and keep records so you learn and will have a better idea for next year.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It has been at least hinted at in the above, and perhaps someone outright said it, but adult bees do not eat nor do they need pollen. They will not starve for lack of pollen. They can't raise brood without pollen.

If the issue is them starving, there are options as far as feeding, but if the hive is not light I would not worry about it.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

I disagree Michael. The first thing adult bees do when emerging is feed on honey and pollen...or pollen supplement. Adult bees DO consume pollen


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

rbee does a bee that emerges instantly become an adult? Are those fuzzy little cuties instantly ready for guard duty or foraging? Nah! They need to grow up first to adulthood. They indeed eat pollen to get that done and do nurse bee duties. after that, they do not eat pollen.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Put it on the plate, it's gone, someone ate it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Adult bees consume pollen in order to convert it to royal jelly and feed brood. But they do not consume pollen for their own needs. Does a newly emerged bee eat some royal jelly out of the brood cells? Probably. Does a new emerged bee eat pollen? Only if they are feeding young. But it's really irrelevant anyway. The point is that the adult bees in the colony are not going to be deprived of nourishment because you didn't feed them pollen, nor are they going to be provided with nourishment if you do feed pollen and we KNOW they will get inadequate nourishment from pollen substitute if they are trying to feed young bees, which they probably won't do much of until they have a supply of pollen. There is no need to give a "pollen" patty because you think they may be running out of stores...


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

MB, All kidding aside the thread has wandered from do I need to feed? Your answer; No. Agree. 
Wandered to; When do I feed if for a specific result. Most of the replys.
Sort of like your take on feeding syrup. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but not blindly.
Myself, I didn't like the amount of pollen stored last fall, so trying for sub not too soon and not too late.


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

Michael, do you feel pollen patty's are a waste of money or is there a time when you would consider them beneficial?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael, do you feel pollen patty's are a waste of money or is there a time when you would consider them beneficial? 

There are times when I consider feeding REAL pollen beneficial. But that is a far cry from pollen substitute. The most "watered down" I'm willing to do is 50% substitute and 50% real pollen when I really think there is a need and I don't have enough real pollen. And then I feed it dry in an empty hive. About the only times I ever feed pollen are when I see the bees gathering grain dust or saw dust and I think there is a pollen dearth. In the spring when the packages come in there is no pollen dearth. Earlier in the spring there is no pollen dearth, but it's too cold to gather it and not gathering it keeps them from rearing brood too early. Rearing brood too early is my primary cause of losses in the winter. I certainly don't want to encourage the primary cause of my winter losses...


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

Thank you for the explanation!


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> Adult bees consume pollen in order to convert it to royal jelly and feed brood. /QUOTE]
> 
> And that is exactly what I expressed in my first post. I will also disagree somewhat with the notion that adult bees do not benefit individually from consuming pollen or in this topic pollen supplements. Vitelogenin even in adult bees is the fountain of youth protein in bees.


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

Vance G said:


> rbee does a bee that emerges instantly become an adult? Are those fuzzy little cuties instantly ready for guard duty or foraging? Nah! They need to grow up first to adulthood. They indeed eat pollen to get that done and do nurse bee duties. after that, they do not eat pollen.


I disagree completely. 

First off...they are adults when they emerge.

Second...those bees that overwinter especially in colder climates are two to three months old when the queen begins laying again, well past the "nurse bee" age. They do indeed consume pollen for vitellogenin production.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm a few hours south west of your county by car Cynthia. I saw the bees bringing in pollen yesterday. Although I could see putting the patties in earlier or not at all ... it makes sense what Vance said about waiting to see the bees bringing in Pollen. Every hive was bringing in Pollen yesterday but the bees practically ignored the open feeders I had out. I'm guessing they are rearing brood right now but if the cold weather keeps up they may not be able to get out to get enough pollen. Based on using the pollen patties as a necessity the cold weather may be making a good case to use them this year. Maybe someone could agree or disagree with my thinking on that? If they are raising brood and then it gets cold for a month is that a good reason to put the pollen patties on? 
I too have been reluctant to open the hives but will probably put some pollen pattie mixture up top here in the next little warm day when it is close to 50. If we over stimulate them with too much pollen we will need to keep an eye out for swarm cells when it warms up. I have less experience than others that have posted but I think I am giving an ok response to your question. I hope so. I wish you luck. opcorn:


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Hey Jeff, I wish I was getting pollen! Ground is still frozen here. I would start feeding patties for sure if you have pollen coming in. It will suppliment what the bees bring in and chances are in 21 days when the bees really need it, more will be available. Just don't let them run out of patty once you start feeding it. It is supposed to be close to 60 on Saturday here and I am really looking forward to a good look at my bees! Not going to unwrap to pull frames but would sure like to look. Maybe I will do a sample.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

Perfect! 60 and a saturday  sounds like a nice day is headed your way. Thanks for the tip Vance. It is going to be warmer where you live than it is here in PA. That is quite a flip from how it was last year. I hope you get a nice early spring there.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

I mixed the Pollen Patty mixture and put it in a coffee can and then into the fridge. Is that an ok way to store it for a a week or do I have to go ahead and make the patties and freeze them?
The instructions said to mix it and then it sit overnight. I mixed it last night. Last year I put it in cupcake wrappers. That worked well.
Jeff


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

>And that is exactly what I expressed in my first post. I will also disagree somewhat with the notion that adult bees do not benefit individually from consuming pollen or in this topic pollen supplements. Vitelogenin even in adult bees is the fountain of youth protein in bees.[/QUOTE]

Rbees, very well said, this is why the pollen sub feeders have on avg a much lower winter loss rate.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

Hi Keith, I know that you are knowledgeable on pollen patties. What is the recipe to make the patties with your Pollen Substitue? Do you make them and freeze them until use? Do you have any tips for making them and storing the mixture or the patties? I just mixed some and thought maybe you could teach me a good pattie making technique.


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

Keith Jarrett said:


> this is why the pollen sub feeders have on avg a much lower winter loss rate.


In the age of two strains of mites...and the pathogens they vector...two tyes of nosema, hive beetles and who knows what that will come down the pipe. Our girls need every advantage they can get.

I'm not joking here, but ever since I've started feeding pollen supplements starting late January, my winter losses are for all practical purpose at pre-mite levels.

I typically sell 30 to 40 five frame overwinter nucs, and I checked a few last weekend and they already have 2-2 1/2 frmaes of brood of all ages.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

Can you share your method of placing it in the hives please?


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## Joel_T (Feb 8, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> Rearing brood too early is my primary cause of losses in the winter.


?? I don't understand the connection.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

They run out of honey perhaps and it isn't warm enough for the bees to forage yet so they starve. I'm guessing.


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## Joel_T (Feb 8, 2013)

virginiawolf said:


> They run out of honey perhaps and it isn't warm enough for the bees to forage yet so they starve. I'm guessing.


Aaa, that makes sense. I read it as "rearing brood too early (in the spring) is my primary cause of losses in the (following) winter.


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

virginiawolf said:


> Can you share your method of placing it in the hives please?


Not at all.

I like the product that Dadant sells...Beepro to me seems to course. I mix it with heavy syrup, a little canola oil and add a little Honeybeesnakeoil. For the double deeps, I simply split the boxes in two and add a good three pound pancake in the center. If the cluster is still ifor the most part in the bottom box, I'll carve out a two in circle for communication. If the bees are in the top box, I'll invert on the top frames and add a sheet of wax paper between the lid and patty.

The canola oil not only serves to increase fat content, but also keeps things from drying out. The Honeybeesnakeoil keeps mold at bay.

That said, in late January in Western Washington the weather is starting to warm and we really don't get a whole lot more cold snaps...typically mid 30's with an ocassional upper twenty degree night. Not quite sure what your climate is, but I've had good results in mid 30 degree nights.


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