# Anybody Give Up On Reversing Brood Boxes?



## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Going into my second year and was just reading up on some Spring management tasks I need to do and I discovered that some believe that reversing brood boxes is unnecessary, disruptive and not an effective swarm management technique. I had planned on doing this on the next nice day, but am having second thoughts, especially since one of my hives that has been in the super all winter has moved down a box.
I know that opinions will go both ways so I am especially interested in those that used to reverse and have stopped doing it and what their results are. Thanks, J


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

I tried some of both this year and the hives I didn't reverse are behind the hives I did reverse. The bees are still in the top deep, whereas the hive that I reversed have exploded and have brood in both deeps now.

I'll reverse all hives from now on.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Fivej said:


> I am especially interested in those that used to reverse and have stopped doing it and what their results are. Thanks, J


About 4 years ago I had surgery in late winter and was not quite fully recovered by early spring when I would typically do reversing, so it did not get done that year. By the time I was able to get into the hives almost every hive swarmed, at least once. Those were my results when the hives were not reversed.

Timely and proper reversing, along with other swarm prevention manipulations, can make a huge difference in your spring time results.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So far it is a waste of my time doing it. With 3 deep the bottom drawn comb are all for the pollen and 
nectar reserve. They use the top and middle deep for the brood nest with honey storage in the top deep. What to do with
10 frame of pollen? Going to be a nice little experiment growing these QCs on them.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

My mentor always bottom supers and never reverses. 
I keep an eye on em, if they get more than five frames of brood or so in the top box and still not using the bottom frames I'll switch em.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I don't think it's something you either do all out, or "give up on". It's something you do when the situation warrants it. And it can be a useful tool when done right. It could also be damaging if done wrong.

Thing is, our goals, and the bees goals, are different. The bees primary goal is the same as every other animal, to reproduce. Which for bees, means swarming. Our goal, for most of us anyway, is to get a crop of honey. To achieve our goal, we have to mess with the bees goal, as losing most of the workforce just as the honeyflow starts is not going to help us maximise our honey harvest.

Reversing the brood nest done at the right time in the right way, can assist with that. But as with most things beekeeping technique, there are many ways to skin a cat.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Mike Gillmore said:


> By the time I was able to get into the hives almost every hive swarmed, at least once. Those were my results when the hives were not reversed.


My results as well Mike. A few years ago I wasn't able to reverse my brood chambers. Huge amount of swarming and a terrible crop. Reversing is a vital part of my beekeeping. Done at the correct time with proper supering...before and after...will eliminate most swarming.


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

Michael Palmer said:


> My results as well Mike. A few years ago I wasn't able to reverse my brood chambers. Huge amount of swarming and a terrible crop. Reversing is a vital part of my beekeeping. Done at the correct time with proper supering...before and after...will eliminate most swarming.


MP can you be specific on the correct time and with proper supering for us newbies?

Cheers!


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## Spysar (May 15, 2016)

aran said:


> MP can you be specific on the correct time and with proper supering for us newbies?
> 
> Cheers!


+1


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## PeterP (Feb 5, 2014)

aran said:


> MP can you be specific on the correct time and with proper supering for us newbies?
> 
> Cheers!


Entry #9 in this thread http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?335237-Reversing-upper-entrance-basic-spring-management


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

PeterP said:


> Entry #9 in this thread http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?335237-Reversing-upper-entrance-basic-spring-management


cheers mate thats perfect!


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Thanks all! Just the input I was looking for. Looks like I will be reversing in my future. J


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## ericweller (Jan 10, 2013)

My opinion is anecdotal but on some hives that I reversed, the next inspection a week later found the queen back in the top box. I just reversed a couple more hives and they still went into swarm prep. IMHO, the only way to prevent swarming is frequent inspections (every 5 - 7 days) and splitting when the swarm cells get larvae.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I wait until the Redbuds start to swell to check the boxes to see if they need to be reversed. If the Queen hasn't moved down by then I reverse. This year only one hadn't moved down.

I run dbl deeps.

I have had only two swarms this year from one hive that replaced the oldest Queen in the apiary. Both swarms were small, about two lbs.

Alex


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

During the Spring flow reversing the hive box will only delay the swarming. They needed more space for the early
Spring expansion. That mean you have to give them lots of empty cells to lay. Put in more foundation frames if you
have to for the congestion.


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## Kevinpdolan (Jun 6, 2016)

Michael what do you consider the right time to reverse? and when would you start supering in Vermont? sorry answered by previous posts which i never read before posting


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

ericweller said:


> I just reversed a couple more hives and they still went into swarm prep.


Just reversing a colony won't guarantee the colony won't swarm. Most cases, in my bees, in my location, supering/reversing/supering works with most colonies. But, lack of empty comb space above the cluster for brood rearing and nectar storage isn't the only trigger for swarm preparations. Some colonies requeen themselves by swarming. That's their nature. Requeening by swarming rather then by supercedure. So, those colonies that don't respond to your swarm control methods, try requeening them yourself.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

I should add that I have destroyed Queen cells. When the Blackberries bloom I will split out the old Queens in any colonies that rebuild QCs, which will probably be all but the one that replaced their Queen. It will also be checked just to be sure..

Alex


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## Forgiven (Nov 17, 2016)

I've been thinking about this.. but my bees don't seem to think like they do on your side of the pond...
...they don't live in upper box, or lower box, they live on the left side, or right side. Empty space is to the sides, not up or down...


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Forgiven said:


> I've been thinking about this.. but my bees don't seem to think like they do on your side of the pond...
> ...they don't live in upper box, or lower box, they live on the left side, or right side. Empty space is to the sides, not up or down...


That's because you're so high up on the curve of the world, sideways is really up and down, it's just you that can't tell the difference...the bees are doing it right, you're just seeing it wrong.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I only reverse occasionally. It is a tool not a doctrine and nights here stay cold late into June. I run small entrances and no silly sbb and it is still warmer higher up. Heat is what makes colony expansion and queens can lay down into that bottom box just as well. Now if both boxes are boiling and stores are all on top, I will move the honey frames to the middle of the bottom box. They will move the honey and that stimulates them. I also super that strong hive for fruit and dandelion flow.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

I reverse them if they need me to do it for them, but that isn't always the case. A lot of times they move up and down the way they ought to on their own. I don't consider it to be 'swarm prevention'.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Anybody Give Up On Reversing Brood Boxes?

Well, if I'm in the hive and I dig down to the bottom board (a typical first inspection in the spring) and the bottom box is empty, I put it on top so I can see when it's full. If there is brood in the bottom box I leave it where it is. I don't go around with the intent of reversing all my boxes. I gave up on that a long time ago.

"Some beekeepers, trusting the ways of bees less than I do, at this point routinely 'switch hive bodies,' that is, switch the positions of the two stories of each hive, thinking that this will induce the queen to increase her egg laying and distribute it more widely through the hive. I doubt, however, that any such result is accomplished, and in any case I have long since found that such planning is best left to the bees."--Richard Taylor, The Joys of Beekeeping


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Vance G said:


> I only reverse occasionally. It is a tool, not a doctrine...


Agreed. 

Anyone who has done "wholesale reversing" can probably attest to the variety of brood nest configurations they come across. Eventually one comes to the conclusion that reversing is (probably) beneficial to some hives, harmful to some, and unneeded by some.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Ok, to summarize: Never reverse them, always reverse them, sometimes reverse them. So I will open them up, look, scratch my head a few times and then I guess I am on my own to make a decision on what to do. At least its comforting that no matter what I decide, someone will agree with me! Thanks all. J


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## westtnbeekeeper (Oct 26, 2015)

I only reversed one hive this year... the other 5 moved down on their own. Thinking maybe it was the slatted racks I bought last fall or maybe just a coincidence. Idk:kn:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>At least its comforting that no matter what I decide, someone will agree with me! 

Yes! I think you've got it!


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

Fivej said:


> Ok, to summarize... J


_*If *_you are thinking about reversing the hive bodies, perhaps do it if the bottom box (drawn comb) is pretty much devoid of "working" bees. If the upper box (or two) is full of bees/brood, they will likely appreciate another box of (reversed) drawn comb to expand into. 

If you are reversing "for the sake of reversing", there is the possibility that the reversal will be counter productive, as in the case where the bees are somewhat working both (or several) boxes already. Spring is often a time when the lowest of 3 mediums falls into this category. I don't run deeps. 

_Understand the intent of reversing_: moving an unused (lower) box up into a position where it will be more in a more (potentially) productive position. Bees have a somewhat natural inclination to move in an "upward" direction in the spring. Empty boxes "below" are perceived to be less usable, although the bees may see it otherwise to a degree. They may see it as a valuable "receiving dock". _They_ have been at it a lot longer than we have, which is why I am less inclined to spend the effort on reversing hive bodies that I once did.

If the bottom box of drawn comb is pretty much empty, Why_ not_ reverse it if you are so inclined?


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Thanks Colobee, think I got it.


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## razoo (Jul 7, 2015)

In our observation hive, this spring the middle frame was filled to its max, and then only was the lower frame (both with drawn comb) used by the bees for brood. They used it of their own accord when they needed it. 
The upper frame, foundation with no comb, is still unused.


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