# Does using all mediums hurt brood production?



## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

My father-in-law keeps bees in Oklahoma in all mediums (Russians). He loses several swarms a year (!) and collects between 300 and 400lbs of honey, so I don't think that brood production is much of a problem.

I suspect that using all mediums becomes an issue in colder climates - as bees might have more difficulty moving up during cold weather (more 'gaps' to cross and smaller spaces upon which to cluster if the colony is larger).

I am in the north - so I stick with deeps, although I am considering using a deep/medium setup sometime.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

The traditional lang hive has two deeps for brood production, she has to cross boxes regardless of whether she is in mediums or deeps. In my experience it doesn't matter.

The gap she has to cross is only 3/8th on an inch. I have seen brood chambers in feral colonies that were split up by headers and she have to cross up 8 inches and over the top of the header. The bees don't really care. Beeks often over complicate things.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've seen brood in five medium boxes, often. It does not restrict the queen at all. Now a queen excluder... that's another matter...


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## nurseric (Sep 13, 2008)

It seems irrational to use all mediums. A good strong hive will need two large full supers to do well in the winter. It is ok to put a queen excluder on top of the two hive bodies and then use the mediums for honey. You would have swarms and more swarms if you use mediums. A strong colony of 50-60,000 bees need the two full size hive bodies to keep their cycle going. Think about it for a minute. Queen is laying, workers are putting up pollen and honey, young bees are emerging, it is just a bee cycle. Then once in May, I split all of my hives. I place a queen excluder in between the two large hive bodies. The bees will split themselves into top and bottom. I pull the top super, queen it and put a second hive body on both and a cover. Move the new hive to the other bee yard. Those old beeks like Dadant, Kelley etc.... didn't just say, "Well, I think I will make 9 5/8 frames and an 10 11/16 hive body today" The research went into it. Trial and error. It is now down to a science. They bees do better with xxx space. Ric


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

nurseric said:


> It seems irrational to use all mediums. A good strong hive will need two large full supers to do well in the winter. It is ok to put a queen excluder on top of the two hive bodies and then use the mediums for honey. You would have swarms and more swarms if you use mediums....


Make sure you are using 3 mediums for brood and all problems should be addressed. My bees tell me that it certainly is ok to overwinter in three mediums. The queen seems to have little problem crossing the gap because I would always find her working in a different boxes each inspection.

I must be doing something wrong because I haven't seen any more tendency to swarm than with 2 deep brood boxes.

You need to contact a nuc supplier very early if you want medium nucs as they seem to be spoken for very quickly. I'd contact them the summer before to reserve medium nucs if possible. This year I was only able to order deep nucs.

Wayne


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## elkridge (Jan 13, 2010)

My bees seem to be happy with all mediums here in Montana at 4,000 ft above sea level.


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## mrspock (Feb 1, 2010)

Responses seem split into two camps:

1) Those that have tried all-mediums, and like it.

2) Those that feel that the idea is outlandish.

I'd be interested in hearing from those that have tried all-mediums, and found for some reason it didn't work for them - And why they went back.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>1) Those that have tried all-mediums, and like it.
>2) Those that feel that the idea is outlandish.

A lot of beekeeping things are like that. There are those doing a particular thing and succeeding and loving it and those who have never tried it but know all the reasons it can't possibly work...


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## HAB (May 17, 2008)

We run Russians in Deep and Medium Brood chambers. As long as they have enough total brood space they don't seem to have any preference.


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## eqnox (Nov 10, 2009)

My bees do not seem to care they are in all mediums. It makes moving comb and replacing equipment a lot easier. It is just one less thing to buy, assemble, paint, and keep track of.


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## Ardilla (Jul 17, 2006)

I have some double deep brood chambers and some triple medium brood chambers. I have only had bees for five years but I haven't seen a difference. The race and age of the queen seems to have more of an effect on brood production than the box size. 

My biggest brood producer is in all mediums, but I doubt it has anything to do with the box size. It probably has to do more with the genetics of the swarm I caught, dumb luck, and a small (non)statistical sample size (4-6 hives).


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

my 2 cents is.....I run deep brood chambers, BUT know plenty who run combination deep/med...AND those who run all mediums...my experience with all 3 systems says..........as long as the bees have room they really dont care what size box and frames you use just like they dont care what color you paint their home. There are pros and cons to running all mediums but I think the positives outweigh the negatives especially for a new beek...go with your gut and have fun:thumbsup:


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

I think if I had to look for negatives, one would be that a complete inspection requires pulling 10 frames more than double deeps. Might be a concern for a big commercial operation. I don't know. Also requires one extra hive body and 10 frames more than the DD hives. Not real issues for me. 

Main issue is that some old-timers look at you like you have two heads, but who cares?

Wayne


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## sylus p (Mar 16, 2008)

Mediums are easier to CARRY... they are not easier to WORK. 

It is twice as hard to find the queen when you have to look at twice the number of frames. I would say deeps for that reason alone are better. 

Its not just about efficiency... More frames to look at means more squished bees, more robbing and ultimately more angry bees. These things matter big-time to hobbyists (and it seems like the idea of using all mediums is directed at hobbyists and newbees lots of the time).

But mediums are easier to carry, I'll give you that, they just aren't easier to work.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

nurseric said:


> It seems irrational to use all mediums. A good strong hive will need two large full supers to do well in the winter. It is ok to put a queen excluder on top of the two hive bodies and then use the mediums for honey. The bees do better with xxx space. Ric


#1 Many beekeepers are getting away from queen excluders and running unlimmited brood space.

#2 Over wintered Nucs are in far less space than 2 deeps and often do just fine. 

I am not opposed to deeps or mediums, just opposed to having both. I could just as easily run all deeps as I can all mediums if I choose to. The advantage for being all medium for me is that I always have the right size frame and box regardless of what I need.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

> I asked a member of the (very traditional) local beekeeping club where I could get nucs in medium frames. Without saying it, he clearly thought I was crazy and grossly misinformed to want to go all-mediums.


Beliefs will change through time. Here is one old timer’s opinion.



> Man cannot teach bees anything,
> but he can hinder them by placing complications in their
> hives. All other things being equal, the best hives are
> those possessing the least complications ; and the best beemaster
> ...


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

I will be selling a few MDS nucs this spring to service my customer's needs.
One of my goals for next year is to send up a load of 1 full depth brood chamber with a MDS on top for almond pollination.
The truck will be easier to load, lighter to transit and the frame count will be met or exceeded..
Ernie


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I was helping a friend go through his deeps looking for queens. I do this all the time queen rearing, but on mediums. I was surprised at how tired my arms were getting and I then realized that deeps are harder to hold up while looking for queens than mediums... I don't usually have any trouble finding queens in either one, and I don't think they are harder to find in mediums. But if you think you need to find a queen (I can only think of a few instances where I think I need to) you can put an excluder between every box and come back in three days and look for eggs. and you'll know what box she's in. Then you only have to search that box.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> I am not opposed to deeps or mediums, just opposed to having both. I could just as easily run all deeps as I can all mediums if I choose to. -bluegrass


Excellent answer, and well worth repeating. I've tried both. I see little difference to the bees in the two. Interchangeable equipment is very, very useful. Mixing adds a level of possible frustration.

Pick one, and run all of that depth -- that's my advice. If you like mediums, run all mediums. If you like deeps, run all deeps.


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## ga.beeman (Mar 29, 2009)

I have bees in mediums that i bought from another beekeeper. they seem to raise as much brood as the deeps. The advantage for some would be that they are not as heavy. the disadvantage is that you have to move three times the amount of frames to find the queen and do your work. for this reason i am going to move these into a deep with one medium. just better and saves alot of time for me which means alot in the springtime. but they might be good for other beekeepers...Good Luck David


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

Kieck said:


> Pick one, and run all of that depth -- that's my advice. If you like mediums, run all mediums. If you like deeps, run all deeps.


Except as brood chambers, I really never have to lift a deep. As honey supers I would have to lift them many times. Maybe it is just my management style, but by the time of year that the top deep starts filling up, I never really go into the brood nest in a way that makes me lift a full box. I have, but only a handful of times over the past 20 years

I don't think that there is an correct answer other than "whatever you like best", but for me I like deeps for the brood. My brood chamber requires be to buy two boxes not three, 20 frames, not 30 and the same for foundation.

If I decide to treat a hive, I don't have to wonder which frames might have been in there when it happened. 

My mother-in-law is 80 and has hives. We decided to start moving hers to mediums to help with the weight, but so far she still have half with deeps and half with all mediums and really doesn't care she if changes the others or not. She really never has to lift a full deep.


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## 123456789 (May 24, 2009)

Probaby doesn't hurt brood production, but you might need at least 3 or 4 for wintering. Alberta gets some pretty long cold winters, as I'm sure you know.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> If I decide to treat a hive, I don't have to wonder which frames might have been in there when it happened. -beedeetee


I've never put brood frames up into supers, but it certainly is convenient at times to take some frames that had been used in supers and are drawn out and use them in nucs or splits to give the bees some extra comb.

I stand by my statement. Completely interchangable equipment is an asset. If having a mix of equipment works for you, fine and well.


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

NDnewbeek said:


> My father-in-law keeps bees in Oklahoma in all mediums (Russians). He loses several swarms a year (!) and collects between 300 and 400lbs of honey, so I don't think that brood production is much of a problem.


He was asking about Med NUCS. I think that med nucs will cut down their growth time, as there is less for her to lay in between 4-5 frame deeps and 4-5 frame med.

I will say though, a lot in Ohio love the med frames.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Eaglerock said:


> ... I think that med nucs will cut down their growth time, as there is less for her to lay in between 4-5 frame deeps and 4-5 frame med.


I've only seen 10 frame medium nucs.

Wayne


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

I had someone last year want me to make them 5 frame med. I thought it strange. :scratch: But what do I know...lol


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## sylus p (Mar 16, 2008)

Michael Bush said:


> I don't usually have any trouble finding queens in either one, and I don't think they are harder to find in mediums. But if you think you need to find a queen (I can only think of a few instances where I think I need to) you can put an excluder between every box and come back in three days and look for eggs. and you'll know what box she's in. Then you only have to search that box.


You have to look at more frames and move more boxes when running all mediums. It takes longer to find a queen. More time means more robbing and more frames to manipulate means more squished bees, unless you want to move in slow motion (read: "more time"). 

If you put an excluder between every box one day and come back another you just lifted two times what you should have lifted once and drove twice as far as you had to.

I do like mediums. Sometimes I want more frames. Sometimes I want a lighter honey super. I like a medium box as a nuc. I have lots of mediums. But it is more time consuming to find a queen in four mediums than it is in two deeps. It just is. 

Brother Adam choose a twelve frame jumbo in part because he wanted to look at twelve frames instead of 20.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've never noticed having any more trouble finding a queen in a medium hive. I've helped people find queens in all kinds of hives and configurations. I don't really see any difference.


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## Eaglerock (Jul 8, 2008)

I have to agree with sylus p. Why handle things twice, kill more bees and my time if more valuable. Using deeps for brood is the best way.

Less time of her (the Queen) climbing from frame to frame too.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It depends on if you want to lift 50 pounds twice, or 100 pounds once (and multiply by number of hives or boxes needing to be moved). My back will not take the 100 pounds once, let alone x 200 hives x 5 boxes...

I actually handle a lot of things a lot less since I went to eight frame mediums. I do my splits by the box now and don't even look for brood. If I have four boxes full of bees, I have brood in at least three of them. So I just deal the boxes. I couldn't do that with ten frame deeps.


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## Riley (Dec 12, 2009)

Michael, the interchangeability sounds good. Do you make an effort to keep frames that held brood separate from honey frames? In other words, do some of last year's brood frames end up in this year's honey supers? Does it matter? Thanks.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Michael, the interchangeability sounds good. Do you make an effort to keep frames that held brood separate from honey frames?

No.

> In other words, do some of last year's brood frames end up in this year's honey supers?

Probably.

> Does it matter?

Not to me.


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## thomas894 (Feb 12, 2010)

Excellent thread! As a disabled person, cutting all my deeps down to mediums has been a blessing. Having all of my equipment interchangeable(including my top bar hives) is fantastic. I'll never go back to deeps.

thomas


"None of us are free as long as one of us is chained."


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Picking up and setting down an eight frame or medium depth super causes less strain on the lower back!.
The eight frame places the center of gravity closer to your stance/posture and does not pull on the lower spine, L-4 and L-5, as much as the 10 framers.
You can load more hives on a load and make 10% fewer trips down the road.
Ernie


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