# Trap-Out method



## gingerbee

I am a newbie to beekeeping, have only been keeping hives again for a few years. I just began catching swarms with the hope of building up my small apiary. I've found there is a lot I don't know and a lot to learn. 

The local agricultural center is, as well as pest control companies, giving out names of people on their lists who remove swarms. Like other beekeeps in the area, I'm getting calls about swarms moving into or becoming established in houses. I've never tried to remove a swarm from a house and I did not realize until talking with Iddee that there was another way (the trap-out method) of successfully removing bees from a home, other than getting a carpenter and actually going into the structure and removing them and the comb, which is costly to the homeowner and which I have no experience doing. Many people can't afford to do this. 

The other alternatives seemed to be to either live with the honeybees, which most people, don't want to do, find a way to make them leave, or kill them. If they are killed or made to leave, the honey still remains in the walls and will cause a problem, draw more bees or other insects. So I was for awhile at a loss on what to advise people to do. 

I read about putting steel wool in the entrance where they were coming and going from, advised folks that called as best I could when they indicated they could not afford to have construction done or when they chose to kill the bees instead of having them removed. This resulted, apparently, in a few colonies being killed. Though I was trying to help people who had these insects invade their homes, I wish I'd never advised them. If people choose to kill honeybees then that's their choice but it's not mine. 

Other beekeepers in the area also are advising that they can't remove the bees from houses and for folks to call the exterminators. I got a call this afternoon from a woman who had bees going into her brick foundation and had gotten into the insulation and in the house. The ag center had given her several references for folks to call to remove them. It was later in the afternoon before I received her message and could explain to her about the trap-out method and that the bees could have been removed without being killed. She had contacted other beekeeps who told her nothing could be done and it was best to exterminate them. By the time I spoke with her she had called a pest control company and had them exterminated. 

These beekeeps didn't know they could be removed with the trap-out method. 
Few beekeps who remove bees seem to use this method, many like me did not know about it, even the bee person at the Forsyth Agricultural Center hadn't heard of it and had trouble understanding how it worked. I did too at first until I saw Iddee use it. 

The Forsyth County Beekeepers Association has a website and a section on honeybee removal. They state that " Trapping is sometimes done, but it is rarely practical because it takes several weeks and doesn't remove 100% of the bees. If you do decide to exterminate them, any large quantities of honey left behind should be removed to avoid staining and destruction of inside walls or ceilings. The honey and nest debris may also attract other bees, insect pests and rodents." 

Yet Iddee says the Trap Out method he uses works, and that the bees will go in and remove the honey. Wouldn't it be more practical and certainly beneficial to use this method? In it, apparently, the bees exit via a cone that they cannot enter back in through. The trap-out is left in place until the bees have left the house and made their home in a nearby hive that has brood comb in it. Once the colony is established the trap out (cone over the entrance) is taken down, the bees go in and remove the honey but return to the hive, their new home, rather than remain in the house. Then, the entrance to the house closed up so other bees can't get in. It’s not inexpensive, but certainly it is not as expensive as tearing into a home or office building, or paying someone to go in and take out the bees comb but leave the resulting repairs needed the burden of the homeowner. And as bees are needed it seems most prudent and practical. 

And given that more bees are needed, and more beekeepers, couldn’t some sort of grant be developed to help homeowners with the costs of this kind of removal? Maybe beekeepers that do these removals could be paid through these funds, offsetting their expenses and the resulting expense to the homeowners, encouraging apiculture?


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## beegee

Bees may remove the honey, but they won't remove the rest of the organic matter(residual honey, dead bees and larvae, wax, pollen, etc. that will attract vermin. The queen will seldom leave and there will always be a few bees that won't leave either. 

The homeowner should be willing to pay. I don't see how a grant(from what source?)could work. I think homeowner's insurance should pay.Whether it does or not, I have no idea.


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## gingerbee

Hi Beegee

Even so, it would save most of the colony and if brood was provided they could make their own queen. 

Some folks simply can't afford the cost of going in and removing the bees and comb. Some don't care, bees and beekeeping isn't their concern (a lack of food might change their perspective).

Homeowner's is an idea worth suggesting but I don't even know if our own would cover removal.

A grant from where? USDA maybe could develop one? It just seems a lot of colonies could be saved.


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## iddee

>>>>The queen will seldom leave and there will always be a few bees that won't leave either. <<<<

I challenge you to open a hive I have trapped out and prove this statement. In my opinion, it is false. The queen will come out and every adult, live bee in the cavity will come out with her. Once a cavity is robbed out, there is very little left, and nothing to run and damage the dwelling. Old wax, dried and brittle, can be found in many buildings. It does no harm.

Too many statements are made after an incomplete or improper trapout is made.


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## Chef Isaac

Iddee:

Can you give us a step by step instruction on how to do a trap out. What is involved, what steps are needed, common mistakes and things to look out for. 

Thank you in advance! (p.s by the way, another round of packets are going out this week and yours is included.)


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## beegee

I have a friend who removed 2 55-gallon drums of debris from a wall hive. Roaches, dead mice,ants, etc. I don't think I'd like to leave that in my walls. A couple of us did a removal from an old barn last year. The combs were 8' long and there was 1-2' of crap in the bottom of the wall cavity.

I have another friend who routinely traps bees out of buildings and he tells me that he seldom gets the queen. Even if he does, he requeens that colony.

I'm fixin' to trap some bees from an oak tree with one entrance hole 3' off the ground. Should be easy. I don't know how you'd know if the queen comes out, because by the time she does, they will have made a new one. I'll give them as long as they need to get every single live bee out. I figure 6-8 weeks.

Your mileage may vary.

I have no argument against trap-outs. But, sometimes it's not worth doing several hundreds of $$ worth of labor for $60 worth of bees of questionable health and origin.

Grants...If we can't get the gummint(taxpayers)to allocate more than $4 million for CCD research nationwide, how do you suppose you'll get them to pony up enough money to pay all bee wranglers to remove all the swarms that are in houses and other cavities across the country? What about liability? Will the grant cover a botched removal or injury to the beekeeper and his helpers or the homeowner and neighbors or onlookers and damage to his property? Would the grant provider or referring agency become an accessory defendant in a lawsuit? How would labor rates be pro-rated for each job, based on whose estimates? I'm just asking....


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## AllFloridaBee

beegee said:


> I have no argument against trap-outs. But, sometimes it's not worth doing several hundreds of $$ worth of labor for $60 worth of bees of questionable health and origin.



agreed. For some reason, people expect me to spend many (and a trap out means MANY ) hours of my time, plus vehicle expense and significant liability, for little or no compensation. Oh,and this after they've shot wasp-freeze, kerosene, Lindane, arsenic or who-knows-what into the colony. Right...

It's a cost of home ownership, like anything else. If one can't afford home repair & maint. expense, one should rent.


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## Michael Bush

My problems with trap outs are:

Many trips (as mentioned).

Homeowners often panic from the many confused bees in the air, and many hanging on the cone and spray the bees (has happened in the majority of cases for me).

They often do not work well as there always seems to be more entrances somewhere that have to be found an closed off.

I've never gotten the queen to come out.


But if you can get a cooperative home owner and the drive isn't too far it can work.


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## BjornBee

I have done a number of trap outs, and have watched others also do trap outs. I would be very interested in Iddee's methods to ensure a queen comes out every-time. I have seen a queen come out, but this is the exception and most times what you have left if the queen, the stores honey, and frames of rotting brood.

If one could improve the odds of the queen coming out, and even ensure the honey is robbed, you would still have the brood and comb.

I personally do not do trap outs. If I can not open the wall, I don't do the job. Its way to many hours. And unless iddee's method involves getting all the bees, all the honey, and completing the job in one day, I would find it much more productive of my time to do other things.

So lets see this method iddee. Can you please explain what system or method you use to ensure that the queen, all bees, and honey are removed. 

I think that trap outs by most beekeepers are of little advantage to the beekeeper, leaves the homeowner with future problems, and is like solving or taking care of part of the problem. If there is some foolproof way of doing this as you say, I'm all ears.


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## iddee

>>>>If there is some foolproof way of doing this as you say, I'm all ears.<<<<

I doubt it.

With all the skepticism, I think I'll just sit back and collect bees, make money, and make home owners happy.

I have two traps going now. The home owners call me every other day and tell me what is happening. IE: no new entrances, no clogged funnels, bees still emerging, how wide the bees are covering by looking in the entrance. No time, no travel. I have had newly arrived swarms to come out within 3 days, with queens. Most time I have ever had was seven weeks. That one netted me 4 hives and a nuc. You keep thinking your way and I'll keep thinking mine.


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## BjornBee

iddee,
You challenged anyone to open one of your hives and almost from what it sounds, stated having a guaranteed method.

My last post was not filled with skepticism. I posted my own thoughts, and very nicely asked you to expand on your information.

Now you are back-peddling, and sounding somewhat questionable after all you spoke of previously. Now, perhaps some will view your post with skepticism or perhaps even worse with having a touch of smelly stuff attached.

I honestly wanted to know your methods. If its worthy of my time, is productive, and does justice to the homeowner without leaving a potential future problem, then lets get too it! I would be grateful and would be open to any improvement over the conventional methods of trapping out bees, which I find as less than ideal.

Nobody said anything towards your post with skepticism. Most are posting thier experience, nothing more. Nobody said you were full of it, or at this point even questioned your so-called methods. Here is your chance to shine in a conversation you willingly participated in. Step up to the plate. 5,000 members are waiting for your response.


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## iddee

Bjorn, I asked about trapping on this board about 3 years ago. I got many fine responses that made me try it, along with some of the dangers involved. I made a successful trapout from that thread. Since that time, I have studied trapping, done many traps, had a few failures, and many successes. I'm sorry, but I can't put 3 years of studies in type in one thread. Anyone who is genuinely interested, I will give you "or them" my phone number, or even call on my nickel to discuss it. It is like anything, there are situations where it works, and some where it isn't feasible. I do removals where they are best, trapouts where they are best, and walk away from a few, too. I overwintered 1 hive this year, sold 25 plus nucs and hives this spring, have about 15 now. I think something is working.


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## BjornBee

Oh Crap! First its the secret pollen patties. Now its some secretive trapping methods. I honestly do not know why some even come here to post. Its like some want to boast or brag, tell part of a story, mention some amount of time and effort that makes it not worthy to divulge the rest of the story, then in the end, sounds like a bunch of bull. And yes, you can call that scepticism....with a whole lot of truth thrown in.

Not sure what the whole nuc number thing is. I did double all that just last weekend, if anyone cares.


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## iddee

>>>>sounds like a bunch of bull<<<<

Yes, it does, coming from your end.

All I said was, It's lengthy and I'm not a journalist. I'll be glad to discuss it with anyone and not keep any of it secret. Why don't you call and get all the details, write a book about it, and post it on here.


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## gingerbee

Whoa! It's not a fight, it's a discussion. 

Bojrn, you are really becoming antagonistic here. It doesn't add to the discussion. Iddee has a method that he feels works. It saves homeowners a lot of money, some folks can't afford other methods. It's not perfect but I know of little that is. If I can help someone get bees out of their home without them poisioning the colony, adding chemicals to their and our environment and expand knowledge of bees and their value, I will. 

You make statements, Iddee becomes entrenched and then the fight starts. Or is it that Iddee makes statements, you become entrenched and then it begins?

Whatever. You have your ideas, he has his. I'm interested in helping people and saving bees, building colonies. And I have equipment that needs fixing, a bee inspector coming to examine possibly diseased comb from used equipment I just bought and a schedule that has more than I can do today. 

So I'm just going to say thanks to those who contributed


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## beegee

I'm with bjornBee on this one.......in principle, not necessarily attitude.


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## iddee

Well, I guess I'll concede and admit that If something doesn't work for one person, that means it can't be done. No one else should even try the impossible, even if others are doing it successfully.

Good luck in your removals, guys. I think I'll continue to do both.


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## tbb39

iddee thanks for the pm you send back.. and my first trap out is going better then expected. so far 1 deep full of bees and I thinking I will get 2 more deeps full of bees.


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## whiteflyer

iddee, please email me your phone # I'm interested in your method. [email protected] thank you wm


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## iddee

tbb39....Thanks, glad I could help

whiteflyer, Done


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## drobbins

I used iddee's approach to get one of my swarms out of a neighbours wall last year
took three weeks, they weren't very well established
worked like a charm

Dave


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## Rupert

*Trap out.*

iddee, 

I'm fascinated by your Trap out. I live in France and have just bought a wonderful old house which has three colonies of bees living in the walls. One of the walls, which has two colonies in it, is over a metre thick. I am determined not to kill the bees and would be very grateful if you could give me some information about how your Trap out works and what I need to do. If you send me your telephone number, I would be happy to give you a call, if that is more convenient.

Rupert 

[email protected]


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## db_land

*Trap Outs Work*

I assume everyone knows the basic trap-out method or can find it on many threads at beesource. 

But what happens during the 6-8 weeks a trap-out takes? After the beek gets the one-way exit working, the colony goes through a massive loss of foragers in a couple of days and no more food/water comes into the hive thus emulating a major dearth; the queen shuts down egg laying; house, nurse bees and newly emerged bees become foragers, and exit to never return; the emerge-exit cycle continues until the queen is virtually alone while moths and beetles ravage the combs; the queen either exits (maybe 1 in 10 odds) or dies (usually); the beek removes the comb, smears a little honey at the entrance, may pop in a couple of wax moth larvae, and lets a strong hive rob out any remaining honey, which may take a few days; the beek finally plugs the hole trapping whatever is left.

Explain the process and what to expect (to avoid any "panic") to the property owner/tenant and they will usually opt for removal if it's possible to do so. Sometimes, it's not possible without 10s to 100s of thousands $s work on the structure; sometimes the owner just doesn't want holes cut.

I have examined a ceiling cavity about 1.5 year's after the trap-out of a big hive: nothing left but wispy shreds of comb and about 1 inch of debris (very dry and dusty), hundreds of dead wax moth cocoons.

Next time you have a mean hive in some old equipment, trap it out and observe what happens.


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## Ross

nice write up db....


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## iddee

Thank You, DB.

Rupert, DB has written it quite well. The only thing I disagree with is the queen rate. I think the queen leaves 10 out of 10, but she only enters the the bait hive 1 out of 10. I think she absconds with the last handful of bees the rest of the time. Take a look at these photos and read carefully what DB said, then if you have more questions, I'll try to answer them here to save you an international phone call.

http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/TRAP OUTS/


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## Rupert

Thank you DB and 1ddee. That's very helpful. I've never had anything to do with keeping bees, so please read on bearing in mind my ignorance/innocence. If the cone is put over the entrance to the colony in the wall and the exit from the cone is placed actually inside the new hive by way of a tube; will this increase the likelyhood of the queen taking up residence in the hive? Also I read somewhere that putting a full brood frame from another hive encouraged the queen to come into the new hive to check out the aliens?


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## iddee

A full brood frame from another hive is an absolute necessity. It must also contain unhatched eggs, along with larva. The cone does not have to go into the bait hive, just very near and ABOVE the bait hive entrance. The smell of the brood floats UP to the cone to attract the bees into it. The eggs will be used to raise a new queen. It doesn't matter whether you get the queen or not, unless you are specifically wanting that genetics. The object of my traps is to raise queens from my hive, with someone else's support bees, while removing the colony from the structure. If I get the queen, fine....If she absconds with the last handful of bees, so be it. I still have my queen and the support bees.


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## Chef Isaac

What is your charging structure, iddee, on trap out?


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## BeeAware

I have a trap-out procedure that I have used with some success. Here it is:

1. Eliminate all but one entrance/exit
2. Place a screen cone 18 inches long that tapers to an opening of 3/8 inch over the exit hole.
3. Place a hive containing one frame of unsealed brood, some honey and empty combs near the apex of the cone and at a right angle to it.
4. Check often for additional exits/entrances leaving hive in place for 30 days.
5. After 6 weeks remove the cone, place 1 Tsp of sulfur power in lit smoker and puff into the old entrance hole. This kills any remaining bees or queen.
6. The next day, smear some honey into and around the entrance to incite robbing by the bees that are now in the hive.
7. When robbing stops, remove the hive at night when bees are inside.

Any ideas for improving upon this method will be appreciated. I have used this procedure for removing bees from trees and from a few buildings. I post it here in the hope that other experienced trappers will offer instructive comments. Unfortunately, many in my area advise homeowners with bees in a wall to dust the nest with 5% Sevin.


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## odfrank

BeeAware said:


> place 1 Tsp of sulfur power in lit smoker and puff into the old entrance hole. This kills any remaining bees or queen.


Is this the same as used for acidifying soil? What are the hazards?


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## iddee

Chef, your PM box is full. Clear some of them out.


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## Chef Isaac

Just did Iddee. It would be great if you could resend it.


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## Troy

Trap outs are hard.

Lots of trips to the site. Sometimes there are lots of bees in the air.

I've never gotten the queen either, but others I have spoken to say they have. (I think they got lucky and got a virgin who went out to mate and got locked out.)

So I mostly agree with what others have written above. 

I think if it all goes right, the comb and debris that is left in the wall is a minimal problem.

Within a few days to a week of the trap having been in place, the queen should shut down laying. No food or water coming in and huge losses of bees should get her to shut down. Then it is a waiting game. You must wait for all the larvae to hatch as adults, then you must wait for the adult bees inside to get old enough to fly out as foragers and get trapped out. I figure this process takes about 6-8 weeks.

After I figure the bees in the wall to be pretty much done, I then remove the trap box and place a full working hive nearby. I then smear some honey around the opening and let them go in and rob it out for a week or so. Then close it up.

The problems I have had and learned from.

1. When you are all done with the bees in the wall and bring in the full hive, there can not be a nectar flow on or they will just go about their normal foraging and not be in the mood to rob out that honey in the wall. They conditions have to be right for robbing to occur. 

2. For me in Orlando FL this means I cannot do a trapout except during the late fall (Nov-Jan) and winter months when there is little natural forage, but bees are still flying every day. If I lived in a more temperate area, I'd guess I could only do this once it was warm enough in the spring for flight most every day, but not yet much of any natural forage. If you wait too long the bloom will start and you'll never get the wall cleaned out.

3. The other problem I've had is with Small Hive Beetle. If despite what I've written above I try a warm weather trap out and the hive in the wall starts crashing due to no food, no water, and loss of foragers, then the hive beetles will lay thousands of eggs in there and the whole mess can collapse in the wall into a gooey oozing pile of maggots and rotting honey and dead bee larvae. REALLY NASTY.

Because the results can be spectacularly bad, I use a contract that specifies no guarantees, nothing but my best effort as a beekeeper. I quote a price and included in that price I figure at least 10 visits to the site, but I tell them it is $30 a trip for everyone over the forecasted 10. I tell them there may be large number of confused bees in the air, and that I may have to drill some holes in the wall and fill some holes with caulk or foam etc and that I won't fix these things when I'm done. I also state that they are required to hire a contractor or otherwise properly repair the wall after the bees are gone as I don't guarantee that other bees won't come back. That comb in the wall is a magnet for another swarm - It is amazing how often another one will find a new path back in there and then a new swarm moves in.

Good luck with your trapouts. I still do them, but only if the conditions, timing, and money are right. I guess I enjoy the challenge.


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## Chef Isaac

Just spent an hour on the phone with Iddee and taking trap outs. Great conversation and get person too! thank you for your time!


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## Rupert

Troy,

That's a really helpful post. At the moment, and for the rest of the summer, there is a mass of bloom about. So, having read your advice, I'll wait until September before I start my trap outs. I have two colonies about 2 metres apart in a metre thick wall and a third colony in a thinner wall. I'm meaning to try to trap out the 2 colonies at the same time into two hives side by side. The colonies are about 3 metres off the ground, so I'll make a platform about two metres high and extend the cone with a pipe to the hive entrances. Over ambitiuos?

Rupert


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## iddee

Rupert, Although Troy is right and did a nice write up, it doesn't apply to your area very well. He is in an area of little or no winter, plants blooming nearly year round, ETC. If you want to wait, spring is the best time for your area. The stores and population will be low, the flow will be near, for a quick build up. If you do it in the fall, you may well lose them over winter.

I use the bees from the trap out to clean out the house. They don't seem to mind robbing their own honey, even in a flow. It may be because they have so few stores, or that they are familiar with the place. I don't know. I have never tried using another hive to do the clean up.

"queen explanation"....I never said I get the queen all the time. I said she leaves the structure all the time. Most times, when most of her bees have disappeared, she will take the last handful and head for parts unknown. There is a difference in her coming out, and you getting her.


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## Rupert

Fair comment. in southwest France there has been a good pollen flow for more than a month now, so I reckon that stores of honey must be fairly good. Next spring will probably be the best time for me to attempt to do the trap-out. Also I am going to have to do the roof; so there will be scaffolding around the house, which might make a trap-out more awkward.

I really appreciate all the advice from you guys. Thank you.

Rupert


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## mikevan

Iddee - is a 5 deep-frame nuc-box used for catching swarms big enough to do a trapout? I figure I can transfer them to a regular hive when I get them back home. 

Be well,
Mike


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## iddee

Mike, a trap out is used to trap a colony of bees. How many bees are in the colony? If it is a swarm that just moved in, a nuc may hold them. If it has been there for 3 plus years, it may take 3 deeps to hold them all. It is best to start with a deep hive body. If it fills up with bees, swap it for an empty and keep trapping. If the structure empties before they fill 5 frames, transfer it to a nuc then.


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## mikevan

Thanks. From my cutouts in the first half of the season it just seemed like there wasn't that many bees to warrant all that extra space even for multi-year hives since the buildup hadn't kicked in heavily yet. I've yet to do a post-buildup cutout tho excepting a tree-cutout last weekend but from what I've seen, trees usually don't generally seem to have as many bees as a residential wall cavity thanks to less room and frequent swarming. Just wanted to get several going at once and was looking for ways to save a bit during the trapout so I could spend more on the actual hives since I use long hives rather than vertical Langs.

Be well,
Mike


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## iddee

If you check them every 2 or 3 days, so you can exchange them when full, you might get 5 or 6 nucs from one good colony. Everything works, just some things better for some results, other things for other results. It just depends on what outcome you want.


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## mikevan

Oh!!!!! Put a brood comb in each nuc and basically have several colonies for the price of one!!! I like that - I'm trying to rapidly increase my hive numbers so anything that helps will go a long way towards that end. Grow out the nucs a bit, let them each generate a queen, then transfer them to full sized hives and start over again with the emptied nuc... Of course, it'll be a little slow to start with since I don't have a lot of expendable brood-comb to spread around, but with more hives and more brood-combs, I expect that to increase significantly...

Thanks,
Mike


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## Wheatfieldflowers

Hi Iddee

I am soooooo interested in trying to trap out the bees in my wall. I do not want to kill them. I need them for my orchard and flowers. Please let me know how it is done.
It sounds like a funnel or something is put over the hole. My e-mail address is [email protected] If you include your phone number I will phone you at your convience.
Thanks 
Virginia


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## iddee

You have mail.


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## carbide

I started a trap out of a colony from the side of a brick house about 2-1/2 weeks ago. The entrance hole is alomst 8 feet above the ground and is where a fresh air duct is located for the homeowner's fireplace. Since the house is made of brick I didn't want to go into the wall after them even though the owner said that he would get it repaired at his expense. I built a stand out of 2x4s to get a platform at the proper height, positioned a ten frame deep hive body there with one frame of young brood and eggs and 9 frames of foundation.

Fortunately, my first attempt at positioning the screen cone worked well enough that none of the bees coming out of the cone managed to get back in. Over the next few days the homeowner (my doctor) kept me informed about what was happening with the trap out and all of the bees flying around in his back yard.

Unfortunately, I had to have a minor operation which prevented me from getting back to the trap out until after 2-1/2 weeks had expired. At that time I opened the hive body to discover wall to wall bees inside. All of the frames have been drawn out and there is nectar and honey in over half of them. The box now has a new queen who has just started laying in the original frame of drawn comb that I had placed in the box. I removed the box from the site and took it to my home apiary. I replaced it with a new box with a frame of young brood and eggs and I hope it too will fill with bees over the next couple of weeks.

Since this is my first trap out I'm surprised at how well it has gone so far, I just hope it continues to proceed with the same good results.


Iddee,

What type of caulking do you use to seal the back of your cone base board?


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## iddee

But, carbide, didn't you read the first few posts of this thread? Trap-outs don't work. 

Congrats on a job well done.

I use silicone for holes and cracks less than 1/2 inch. I use great stuff for over 1/2 inch. If the great stuff is behind the cone backing, I have never had them chew it out.


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## carbide

iddee said:


> But, carbide, didn't you read the first few posts of this thread? Trap-outs don't work.
> 
> Congrats on a job well done..


I've got a bit of a stuborn streak in me that insists that I try things that I maybe shouldn't. 




iddee said:


> I use silicone for holes and cracks less than 1/2 inch. I use great stuff for over 1/2 inch. If the great stuff is behind the cone backing, I have never had them chew it out.


I had thought about using closed cell sponge neoprene but I've seen them chew through it before. I had thought about using rtv silicone, but the wall is only two years old and I didn't want to leave the homeowner with too much of a mess to clean up. I ended up inserting 3/8x3/8 pieces of scrap wood into all the mortar joints as they went under the cone base board. Seems to be working OK so far.


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## papa bear

*how far*

hey iddee, hope you not too sick of this subject. noted where you said (and good photos too) to put the trap hive close to the funnel. can it be further, the entrance in the block wall i am trying to get the bees out of is about 20' foot off the ground. i thought about hanging it from the roof, which is flat so maybe the hive can can be there (about 3' away). thanks for all the info you have provided . got any pics of how to make the cones?


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## mikevan

Get a couple of 2x4 20's and cut up some 2x4 8's and form a support for the hive so that the entrance of the trap-out hive to be very close to the entrance of the hive being removed.

Be well,
Mike


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## iddee

http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/TRAP OUTS/?action=view&current=bees002.jpg

http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/TRAP OUTS/?action=view&current=bees003.jpg

I've never tried it more than a foot. It worked then, but not as well.

I seen another beek's trap 8 feet high with the box on the ground. They had built four sections of comb on the cone and had it full of honey. No bees in the box.


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## papa bear

hey , i thought of using one of my ladders and a pair of ladder jacks platforms. this would probably be perfect. problem is i have no way to attach it to the wall and i think a structure that tall would be too unstable. thinking of making a platform with hooks and hanging it from the sill on the wall. this is a commercial style building. the main question is, is it necessary?


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## beyondthesidewalks

I've used trap outs to build up a weak hive or swarm that I wanted to make it through the winter. They're especially helpful if you get a late swarm which will almost never make it through winter. By using it as the bait hive on a trap out, you give the hive a workforce and plenty of honey.

The down sides of trap outs for me have been the little buggers are determined and sometimes find an alternative entrance. Invariably I end up driving to the location several times. I have never retrieved a queen from a trap out except for one that absconded while I was there watching. I caught the swarm and managed to hive it. They didn't survive. Trap outs have always been high effort with not so big a reward for me. With the high cost of gas I'm not sure many far away trap outs would be worth it.

Another downside is that the homeowner admits after several denials that they had sprayed the hive with some toxic chemical once the trap out is done. Sometimes it has even been after they called a professional exterminator and the the pro failed. The homeowner is frustrated and just wants the bees gone. They don't feel bad about tricking you into getting the poisoned bees.

I don't like to tear apart the building to get the bees. I don't want the exposure, hard work or liability. The homeowner never seems to follow my advice and get rid of the honeycomb after the trap out is done. My experience has been that another swarm will be attracted by the comb and make the trapped out cavity their home next year. I've performed trap outs at the same location before.

Another reason that I ask them to get rid of the comb is that wax is a huge fire hazard. If it ever catches fire, it's going to burn hot for a long time. I worry that the homeowner will try to make me liable for not removing the wax if their house burns down. I wonder if I should have some sort of letter of indemnity that I have them sign before I start. I know they can sue anyway but that would go a long way towards proving they knew risks and responsibilities.

Given CCD and all of the other scourges that are killing the bees, I'd like to get the queen from a surviving feral hive and the trap out doesn't do that. A cut out is a one visit situation that is normally more work and I have a good chance of getting the queen. Unfortunately, my cut outs don't have the greatest survival rate either. I seem to have much better success with swarms.


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## mikevan

papa bear said:


> hey , i thought of using one of my ladders and a pair of ladder jacks platforms. this would probably be perfect. problem is i have no way to attach it to the wall and i think a structure that tall would be too unstable. thinking of making a platform with hooks and hanging it from the sill on the wall. this is a commercial style building. the main question is, is it necessary?


From Iddee's response, apparently getting the entrance very close to the hive is necessary. You can brace the support if you like. Or perhaps string the hive from above. This is where innovation and creativity play a big part. I'd browse thru this:
http://s81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/TRAP OUTS/
...for some ideas. However you do it, make sure it's secure and safe. If you tie it from the top, try to have the lines far enough apart that the box doesn't swing, or have guy lines to the ground to help keep it stationary.

Be well,
Mike


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## papa bear

thanks, mike. "nothing is impossiable, but either inprobable or impractable"


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## meganm

*Iddee, trapout help, email me?*

Iddee, I've got a chance to do a removal from a house... a cutout looks huge (interior wall, exterior wall, ceiling space, and ductwork) so after chatting with mike v, I'm considering a trapout. I've got photos of the house and where the bees are, I'd like to chat with you about it... could you email me? [email protected]

I'm particularly interested in anything we can do to increase the possiblity of getting the queen, I'm interested in the genes.

what about blowing in some bee-go or honey robber after the bulk of the bees are out? 

thanks, megan


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## meganm

*Iddee - thanks for the tutoring!*

thanks for getting back to me so quickly, I think I've got a good picture of how to do this now. Mike V suggested that with 2 clear and separate working exit areas, there may be two separate hives in here. it's possible there's one in the interrior wall and one in the exterior. 

my thought is that I'll set up two traps - one on each major exit. if it's two hives, no problem. if it's one hive, I'll just be trapping into splits... does that sound right?

thanks again, you're an excellent tutor, I'm feeling well equiped to go try this.

best, megan


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## iddee

Careful with the compliments....I may get the big head. 

Since trap outs are mostly for getting worker bees and ridding the structure of bees, two traps will just speed up the process.

There may well be two colonies in the house. I have found as high as five colonies adjacent to one another in a house.


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## Troy

idde's comment about my being in a different climate than yours is correct. All items in beekeeping have to be adjusted for climate. 

Here in FL, I have enormous trouble with SHB and so I can't really do trapouts in the hot summer months or the SHB kill it off before I can trap it out, and leave a huge mess.

About the trouble of placing the trap near the cone entrance I have another trick I have used with some success. I sealed up the hive and mounted some 3/4" PVC pipe to the wall so that the only way in and out was through my pipe. I sealed it all up and left the end of the pipe open for a few days so they get used to the new entrance, then placed the cone over the end of the pipe. This allowed me to move the entrance about 6 feet horizonatally and down about 3 feet to where the new hive body could be mounted more readily.

It worked fine. Once thing about the pipe though I would always pitch it down so any bees that die inside tend to roll out. Bees often try to carry out the dead and this allows gravity to help out.


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## meganm

*trapout photos*

so I set up my first trapout today... 2nd floor outside wall of a fire station equipment barn... here's the link to photos:

http://s343.photobucket.com/albums/o467/azizasaid/bees%20-%20fire%20station%20trapout/

Iddee, thanks for your help and coaching on this!

Megan


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## Chef Isaac

Megan: The landing board should be touching the wooden base of the cone or at least as close as possible.


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## meganm

Chef Isaac said:


> Megan: The landing board should be touching the wooden base of the cone or at least as close as possible.


yep, they're not quite as close together as they should be... the bees do seem to be making their way over though. I'm going by this morning to see if it looks like they're migrating like I hope. if not, I'll move things.

I'll tell ya, moving all that stuff around while up a ladder is not so easy! that stuff's heavy! Also learned how little leverage you have while trying to drive screws from the top of a ladder... little things you don't think about untill you do them...

thanks, megan


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## iddee

I think it will work fine, just a little slower than if it were touching. Just look closely for other entrances. That is the biggest obstacle for a trap out. Also check the cone exit often to be sure it doesn't get blocked with dead bees.

Keep us updated as you go along, and yes, you will find many reasons why it helps to be insane to do trap outs. That's why I enjoy them so much. I qualify so well.


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## Chef Isaac

Yes I agree. That stuff gets heavy. Wait until you bring the hive down. THAT is heavy!


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## carbide

That's for sure! I ended up with two full deep boxes from the trap out that I was doing at my doctor's house. The first box was wall to wall bees, nectar, pollen and honey. It was really a lot of fun gettin it down the ladder. 

Seven days after the bees had quit coming out of the cone I removed the cone and smeared some honey around the hole in the wall. The next two days presented a feeding frenzy as the second box of bees cleaned out the colony in the wall. Two days later I removed the new colony in it's box and the stand that they were setting on.

After six weeks the wall was empty of bees, I had two new colonies with newly hatched queens and the homeowner was very impressed with the project. He especially appreciated the fact that I explained to him everything that was going to happen before it did. My wallet will also appreciate the fact that it will be a bit fatter after I send him the invoice for the trap out.


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## meganm

carbide said:


> My wallet will also appreciate the fact that it will be a bit fatter after I send him the invoice for the trap out.


so what do you charge? I'm still sorting out what this is worth, time-wise.
thanks, megan


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## dindallas

*Trap Outs - Any New Comments*

I have read this thread and others on a different forum about Trap Outs. There certainly are different opinions and different results. I would be interested in reading any new experiences and opinions on the subject.

It seems to me (and my short-time experiences in beekeeping), that situations do occur where there is not a practical solution to removing bees other than a trap out. In these situations, it may not be practical to cut out the bees without unrepairable damage. The chances of getting the queen appear to be very low.

I received a call from a homeowner who does not want to kill the bees in one of their trees but does want them gone. I explained about the methods of removal and the residual they would leave if not done properly. I also explained about the great likelihood that others would take their place. They exterminated a colony in this same spot several years ago and a different colony moved in to take their place. The hive is in a large tree with the only entrance 8-10 feet above ground and less than baseball-sized opening. The tree is adjacent to their pool and they are concerned with bee stings.

Has anyone come up with an idea of how to get bees out of a tree without cutting the tree apart? I was lucky once with a lot of smoke and a garden hose. The queen came out and landed on the ground. This colony is still going strong in a hive box.

When the hive cannot be cut out and the homeowner definitely wants the bees gone, does the objective shift to collecting as many bees as possible who will hopefully raise their own queen?

The homeowner would like as many bees as possible to be removed by Easter (two weeks) and then something else can be done later. The tree has not budded/leafed out so we need to see whether the tree is still alive before a final decision can be made. If dead, we could do a cut out later this spring.

What is your opinion about a cone trap leading to a brood box with a frame of brood and watching it for the next two weeks? The brood box and the cone would be removed for Easter and the process could be started over if needed. I am only considering doing this because it is only a few miles away and may be a good experience.

Any alternative suggestions?


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## wfarler

*No mention of using fuming agents*

Interesting that no one mentioned using a fume agent to accelerate the emptying of the cavity? 

I am sure it is impractical in some situations (entrance a long way from hive) and the potential infiltration of the smell into the house. Maybe it is not allowed in the MSDS? 

Comments?


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## jdb1930

Ok, just so I have this down right, all I need to do is make a cone (out of some screen) around 18" long that tapers down to 3/8" at the entrance/exit to the hive. Then set a box with some uncapped brood, a little honey, and some drawn comb at the end of the cone?

The bees won't go back through the cone?

I ask because the neighbors moved out and they have an old safe out in their back pasture that has bees in it. There is 1 entrance/exit (a shotgun slug hole). Thought I could just open it up, but its locked with no combination.


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## Cedar Hill

dindallas asked "Any alternative suggestions?" Here's one that you can improve on. Have done trap outs with success in the seventies, but developed what was a better method for my area (MA) at the time. There used to be on the market a product called a Shell No-Pest strip. It was a yellow piece of plastic impregnated with a substance that flying insects did not tolerate well. Its main use was for barns with livestock, the strips would be hung in cardboard foldouts from the beams and they would take care of any flying insect problem the livestock owner had. Although they were taken off the market:no:, I imagine that there must be something that has replaced them, only more environmently friendly. These Shell No Pest strips were cut into smaller long strips. The strips were inserted into the hive's entrance on the side of the house, as many as would fit in. An empty hive with drawn out frames was left nearby. Within a day or day and a half, the swarm *and queen* would be in the hive or on a branch nearby. It was easy for the homeowner to have the removal of wax and honey done during the winter once the bees were gone. NO ill effects to the bees, as they lived quite well in my hives. Just a thought in a very interesting thread.


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## Jeff Perez

*brood comb question*

This is a great discussion. I'm gathering all these nuggets of information. Thank you all.

How long can a frame of capped brood, larvae and eggs be kept outside the hive, in transit to the trap-out, before the eggs and larvae begin to suffer? Air temp above 70 degrees F. 

Thanks.

Jeff


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## jdb1930

Quite a while. It has been in the 80's here and I did a cutout on Saturday. I put the leftover comb in a plastic container and 3 days later the container was full of baby bees.


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## brooksbeefarm

A little off subject but we use to knock down wasp nest along the river (my brothers and i) to use the larva for channelcat fish bait. We put them ( the nest) in a paper sack,well when i reached in the sack to put some bait on my hook some of the baby wasp had hatched out, don't let anyone tell you baby wasp can't sting:doh: Jack


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## bobber128

I'm trying a trap-out from a beautiful Catalpa tree that I'd rather not see torn down. As it is not flat, I was considering stapling a piece of screen across the opening, and having two of the little plastic escape cones for the bees to get out. I have empty boxes and available frames of brood. Does this sound like it will work? If so, I plan to set it up tomorrow. idee, would you mind a call from a new beek? my email address is [email protected]. Thanks guys and gals.


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## Bens-Bees

It would work ok, but you'd be just as well off using a single screen cone that's just wide enough at the base to wrap around to the sides of the tree. The real trouble would be positioning the bait hive.


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## bobber128

The hole is actually a split from ground level up to about waist high, so I've got one of the cones set right near the bottom. I guess I could block off the other escape cone. Thanks everyone.


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