# A Question for TBH Experts



## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

I am no expert but I am wintering 3 TBH's in the Pacific NW about an hour north of Seattle. Not sure if this is far enough north for you. We had temps this weekend in the 50s so I had a chance to check on my colonies. So far (knock on wood) they are looking great. The clusters are big, hives are pretty dry inside and they are flying any chance they get. We've had some pretty nasty weather so far with cold temps and really wet weather. So far so good for me.

Mike


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

Dave one of the most looked at bee Keepers IMHO in the USA is 
Michael Bush he has a web and post here on this forum 
I'm sure he'll post up too this but if your in need of onfo before he 
or any of the other Pro's here on Board go too his Page and you'llhave all the info you Prove your Point 
*the hive design is not suited to wintering in northern locations*
Is not a true Statement

Tommyt


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

pintado said:


> Hello, I'm not a TBH beekeeper but I've been fascinated with them for a while and I've got a question. A person in my club has stated that the hive design is not suited to wintering in northern locations.


I've lost count of the number of times I have heard this. How 'northern' are we talking about here? There are TBHers in Maine, in Canada, in Alaska too, I believe. 

I am in the south west of England (UK) so not especially 'northern', but my bees have come through temps down to -8 C without a problem, and some parts of the country were down to -17 C with no reports of bees dying off that I have seen.

When someone asks a question like that, ask them if they have done the experiments to test their theory.


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## pintado (May 5, 2009)

One thing that would help is does anyone know of any studies or surveys that deal with winter hive loss. I'm really looking for some solid numbers to back up my position. Thanks for the comments and opinions.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

While Top bar hives have been around in principal for hundreds, or perhaps thousands of years, their use in the recent times in North America, and in their current typical form, has been extremely limited. Most areas are just starting to see them for the first time, if at all. In Nova Scotia Canada, for example - where I am, there are likely less than a handful in the province, and I have only heard of them - never met one.

All this to say that I think up-to-date expertise in the area of keeping bees in top bar hives is very much limited in most parts of North America. Such expertise would come from people who have worked with them for more than an experiment; people who have dedicated at least a few seasons to trying to learn how to work them best in their part of the continent, and who have seen them through environmental conditions typical of the region.

Bottom line from my point of view is that keeping bees in a ktbh or ttbh is somewhat of a "pioneering" undertaking. You have to be prepared to learn a lot for yourself, and be prepared to spend a certain amount of time in "unknown territory" while you do.

That's either part of the charm - or a good reason to go with a Langstroth, depending on who you are. For me, it was a big part of why I got into them.

Here in Halifax, we get a lot of wet, windy weather, and a lot of temperature fluctuation throughout the winter, with temps moving often from 5 to 10 C (41 to 50 F) to -5 to -10 (23 to 14 F) in a 24 hour period. For what it's worth, temps here are presently -12 C (10.4 F) and even having been through poor mite management on my part, the bees are still fine in two 4' ktbh's in downtown Halifax. If they don't make it, I'll be blaming myself and the mites before the hive design.

And if these bees die, I'll put bees right back into those hives in the spring.

Once a couple of hundred people have done it around here for a few seasons and compared notes, we can begin to decide if they work in this locality or not.

And that has to happen all over the continent in order to know.

Adam


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

A few points: Studies are hard to come by as they require funding and I can't think who might pay to fund a study for this issue.
I heard the same thing when I started, and the theory was that bees prefer to move up to stores (warming them as they go) than move sideways. OK.... but if you note other Langstroth posts on this forum people report that their bees are in their top box already. Their bees will move sideways to find honey just as mine in my TBH did. 
Whether they are in a Langstroth, a TBH, or a tree I have heard the biggest danger in the North (other than Mites) is that in February or March the bees will start to raise brood, eat the stores next to them, and then a cold snap. The cold keeps them in such a tight cluster that they won't break it to fetch honey that is just inches away.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The main argument seems to be that horizontal hives can't overwinter. Since the traditional hive of the Nordic countries has always been a horizontal hive and, indeed you can still buy them for there (see http://www.swienty.com/shop/default.asp?catid=1096 ) this argument doesn't hold water. According to Eva Crane the horizontal hive has been and still is the predominant hive configuration in the world.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm#winter


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## Jaseemtp (Nov 29, 2010)

Funny thing about the TBH, your asking about being overwintering up north.  Yet I am being told that I cant have them in Texas because it gets to hot in the summer (110) at its worse.
Jason


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The people who don't have TBH have many reasons you shouldn't have one...

I don't have a study but I've had bees in a top bar hive and wintered it in Nebraska the last five winters. I have not lost it over winter yet, but I did lose it once in late summer from queenlessness and laying workers after they swarmed once.

We typically get some -15 F for a couple of weeks and often get -25 F or so for a couple of weeks. We often get those temps combined with 60 mph winds. Last winter it was -27 F every night for a couple of weeks.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

Anywhere that single deeps can be winter, TBH's will also.
This outfit is in an location that is good and cold. You should find some good info which you can apply to your TBH on these links.

Cut Knife Saskatchewan
OUTSIDE WINTERING OF SINGLE BROOD CHAMBER HIVES

http://www.pedersenapiaries.sasktelwebsite.net/wintering_singles.html

http://www.pedersenapiaries.sasktelwebsite.net/revisited.html


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## kenny61 (Dec 13, 2009)

I build Top Bar Hives and keep bees in them in all 3 regions of North Carolina. From the mountaions (1500 ft) to the coast and whoever says it cant be done has obviously not tried it. I see nay-sayers to TBH's everyday and the majority of them are Langstroth hivers who are stuck in there ways.(mass honey production and chemical treatments)

www.kenny61.wordpress.com


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

I have both TBHs and Langs. Our winter temperature here often are -20F or worse. I find my TBH's winter better than my Langs with far less manipulations. They do so well, I'm seriously considering building more as overwintering hives to restock my Langs in the spring. (Note: My TBH's are Tanzanian TBH's that are sized so I can interchange lang frames if needed.)


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## outofabluesky (Feb 20, 2010)

It is true. TBH are not good in the North. No TBH has survived near the north pole or in Antarctica to date. 

However, I've hear rumors of one in Spitzbergen.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I have had very good success wintering top bar hives the last two winters here in southern Michigan. I only have two KTBH's, but this is the second winter in a row that they have made it through with the basic Italian bee. This winter in particular was extremely hard on the bees, I lost a large percentage of my hives already in Lang's due to cold/starvation, but somehow the KTBH's are making it. They are very good honey producers too, even doing better than many of my Lang hives last year. John


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## trapperbob (May 27, 2007)

I live just a few miles from mike bush and have tbhs myself so long as you have enough stores there should never be a problem over wintering bees. Cold does not kill them to much condensation in the hive and starvation are the real killers. Always make sure you leave enough for them and they will do just fine. Read mikes web sight you will learn all you need to raise a tbh properly


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## iwombat (Feb 3, 2009)

My biggest problems with the limited bits of TBH beekeeping I've done is not with the cold, but the moisture. TBH is a moisture trap, and that's where most of my problems in winter have cropped up.

mmiller, I'd be very interested in hearing what you're doing to control moisture in your set-ups.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Moisture would be more of a problem in your area than my area, cold is more significant for me rather than moisture. Do you use screened bottom boards in your TBH's? They help with ventilation considerably. Any type of hive can be a moisture trap if provisions are not made for moisture escape. Another thing you could do for better ventilation that I have thought of doing is if you use a follower board in your TBH you could drill about a 2 inch hole towards the very top of the follower board and staple 1/8" hardware cloth over it. I don't know if the bees would eventually propolize it shut or not, but it would give more ventilation all year round. Hope this helps. John


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Something else that just came to mind is that although I do believe in SBB for TBH's, I would advise not leaving the screen open all year long anyways. Even in a winter climate where temps almost never go below say 40 degrees, an always open SBB would invite in too cool of air and wind on the cluster. The bottoms of my TBH's have a hinged board under the whole screen that I can leave completely open in hot weather, and close in winter.
Also, I have about a 1/2" air gap along both edges of my roof line of my TBH so that the attic can get cross ventilation up there and not trap so much heat during summer. John


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## iwombat (Feb 3, 2009)

As-is my lid sits about 1" above the top bars allowing ventilation there. I'm thinking that starting in late fall I could just space the top bars by the thickness of a hive tool and allow moisture out the top.

It's too cool here to leave SBBs open, any time of year. Mites love a cool hive, and leaving them open creates a mite-haven.

I'm using a follower board already. Hadn't thought about cutting a vent-hole in it. I might try that. Either that or taking it out prior to overwintering and dropping a bag of wood chips in the back, kind of like a warre top.

I'm right in the cascade foothills, we get about 65" of rain annually (about 25 more than our lowland counterparts). Not uncommon to get 50-degrees and 95% humidity for days on end in the fall and winter.

The experiment will continue.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

iwombat, wouldn't the bees just propolize up the gap you leave between the top bars? As far as putting the hole in your follower board, I'm thinking it would be a big help in winter and summer, just need to put the hole as close to the top of follower as possible, you could even cut a long open slot (maybe 3/4" high) the width of the follower and put screen over that too. I think I will definitely do something like that to all my TBH's this spring. John


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## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

iwombat said:


> mmiller, I'd be very interested in hearing what you're doing to control moisture in your set-ups.


iwombat,
I have been really happy with the moisture levels in my hives. Last year I had alot of moisture that caused mold inside the hive. I wanted to eliminate some of that this year and consider myself successful so far. I use a fairly large "attic" space above my top bars and vent the hive up into this attic space. When doing research it seemed like any holes drilled into the hive from the outside (with the exception of entrances) quickly get propolised shut by the bees. It also seemed that gaps in the bars above the brood area got closed by the bees. I wanted to vent into the attic space since this would eliminate too much airflow caused by wind blowing into and through the hive. I drilled a 5/8" hole in the follower board (slightly angled) down from the attic space into the honey storage area. I covered this hole with a small piece of screen to eliminate the chance of it being used as a path between the two areas. I felt this would allow some air movement in the entrance, through and around the combs and up into the attic. 
How has it worked so far? Great! None of the hives have any moisture issues (mold etc) and so far all 3 of my hives have survived the winter and are doing great.
I intend to continue with this method of venting the TBH's.

Mike


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

mmiller, good to see the hole in the follower worked for you, I have thought of doing the same to my TBH's, and now I probably will, although moisture has never been a problem in my TBH's in the winter probably because I use a SBB it gets plenty of ventilation and I have a vented attic space too. I'm thinking the hole may help even more in my hot summers with ventilation. John


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## iwombat (Feb 3, 2009)

mmiller, thanks for the suggestion. I think I'll make some kind of screened follower board like you suggest. I have a decent sized attic space too, just no way to really vent into it.


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## trentfysty (May 18, 2010)

Greetings from the Mile High City!

I have had my top bar hive for three seasons now. It has wintered over with no problems at all. We have had several weeks of -15 temps here and the bees have been just fine. I do have a pitched roof cover on mine and a quilt on top of the bars similar to a Warre Hive. I vented the bars as well and don't hav moisture issues or mold. My give is built from cedar and the bees seem to do just fine regardless of temp, wind, snow etc. I do make sure to clear the snow from the entrance so that the air flow isn't cut off. 

Anyone that says you can't use TBH in cold climates doesn't know what they are talking about or is citing an isolated case where other factors other than cold played in. I know many people in Colorado that keep TBH and have not had any issues.


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

What part of the follower board do you drill the vent hole? I assume the top bar portion of the follower. Do you drill more than one?


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## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

Bush_84 said:


> What part of the follower board do you drill the vent hole? I assume the top bar portion of the follower. Do you drill more than one?


I drill a 5/8" hole down from the top. I angle the drill bit so it angles down into the back of the hive (bee side of the follower board). I then take a small piece of #8 hardware cloth and staple it over the hole. My current hives have only one hole. I was considering 2 holes in my new hives but I'm pretty happy with one so I'm not sure I'll add a second.

Mike


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