# Typical pattern for young queen?



## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

I had a swarm that I was 99% sure was queenless. I had another hive full of queen cells so I cut two of them out and put them in the swarm hive. That was the first week of August. I kept them closed up until today. Here is what the middle frame looked like. The one next two it looked similar as well. At first (to my untrained eye) before I pulled the frame I thought it was all drone brood. So I was thinking the queen didn't mate. Once I pulled the frame it looked to me like some worker brood but the patter was spotty. Would this be typical of a new queen? Should I be concerned at this point or let it go. The numbers are way down in this hive. If the queen doesn't take off soon I don't think they would survive as is over winter. This time a year would a queen recognize the need for brood and really start laying or is she thinking about getting ready for winter.

I also saw a few very small larvae in the bottom of this hive that looked like wax moth larvae. I saw no signs of wax moths in the comb itself and none of the spider web they leave behind. My 5 year old was with me and ready to go so I didn't have time to address them today. 

Overview of the frame.



Same shot just zoomed in a little.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Very poor pattern. A new, replacement queen is geared to playing catchup and can lay more than 3K eggs per day. She might be a little erratic in a small nest to start with due to her zeal for the job, but by the time she covers this much territory, she should have better control of the process. Yes, there are worker cappings scattered about, but too many misfires. Maybe she was poorly mated, but in any event, I would not expect it to get better from here, on.

Walt


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

Thanks for the info. This late in the year I really don't have many options. The hive is shrinking and I don't really want to waste money on buying a queen for this one. I am starting to see goldenrod in my area so I think I am going to see what happens. I might put some feed on them to help them start drawing more frames, at least I can get some drawn comb out of them. If it doesn't get better in a month or so I might pinch the queen and combine what is left with another hive.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

lot of drone brood too


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

Do SHB larvae look similar to wax moth larvae only smaller? I did not see any SHB but like I mentioned I saw a couple larvae crawling on the top of the bottom board, under the frames. They looked about half the size of a wax moth larvae.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sounds like shb larvae. i'm with jrg, some of the brood has drone capping. i would consider shaking this one out and freezing the frames before any more shb larvae hatch out.


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## lowhog (May 5, 2015)

I had a young queen that started off spotty like that in a 4 frame nuc. I wasn't sure if some of the brood hatched out of the frames or what. After I put them in a ten frame deep and the workers built up enough frames for her she started laying up full frames. She is a great queen.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

flyin-lowe said:


> That was the first week of August. I kept them closed up until today.


:scratch:Seriously, over 20 days? Can I ask what the heck is that suppose to accomplish?


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## Becky Jackson (Jun 7, 2013)

Yes, as Ace is asking, do you mean the bees were'nt allowed out at all? If so then the queen couldn't get out to mate!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i'm willing to bet that was fl's way of saying he didn't disturb the hive after placing the queens until today. :lookout:


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## ToeOfDog (Sep 25, 2013)

<A new, replacement queen is geared to playing catchup and can lay more than 3K eggs per day.>

That is 2.08 eggs per minute for 24 straight hours. Bet she's tired.<GG>


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## Knobs (Sep 20, 2014)

Some of the bees in your pictures have some wing problems. What are your mite counts. Part of your brood issue could be mites and not the queen.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

I meant that I had not been into the hive during that time, I left them alone as to not disturb them while they were making a new queen. I have not done a mite count yet. I had my "sugar shake" kit with me the first week of August when I found the queen cells. That was my plan that day. Since my original hive from last year was full of queen cells and I added a queen cell to this hive I didn't do the sugar shake test.

I am always looking to learn, can you point out to me what you are seeing that looks like wing problems? Thanks.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

I would say you basically have all drone brood and you have a laying worker.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Knobs said:


> Some of the bees in your pictures have some wing problems. What are your mite counts. Part of your brood issue could be mites and not the queen.


I noticed that as well. DWV. You could have a couple different problems that need to be addressed.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

Like wcubed said this looks very poor. Its possible laying workers developed during the extended queenless time. The new queen may not have the support she needs to do her thing. Its getting a bit late to bring a weak colony into the cold season sucessfully. I wouldn't put much resources into it.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

To my untrained eye I think I am seeing some worker brood. If that is that is the case it is not a laying worker correct? My thoughts are to put some feed to them. If nothing else any frames they draw can be used in the future. This being only me second year and with only one hive last year I don't have extra drawn fames around.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

Here's what I am seeing, sunken caps on worker brood which to me means dead / non-viable. Worker cells being reworked into drone brood in large numbers, probably laying workers (plural) and with a small colony, the probability goes up. Deformed wing issues on what you describe as a dwindling population.

At this point, I freeze them and move on - hopefully I can put that drawn comb to better use.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i would be concerned about the shb larvae ruining what nectar/honey may be on the frames and rendering them unusable. i think freezing makes more sense that waiting to see what happens. i'm guessing that most colonies in the north would be be at least one brood cycle into the rearing of the winter bees.


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## maudbid (Jul 21, 2014)

I have a few questions:

It looks like there are several bees emerging from what appear to be worker cells. How can this be if LW? Or am I wrong in my observation?

I am not seeing wing problems other than the ends of some of their wings are ratty looking. I assumed this was normal wear and tear on the wings of older foragers. What am I missing or what do I have wrong?


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

I was going to bring that up and forgot. I thought on the left hand side of the photo there was a worker emerging.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

maudbid said:


> I have a few questions:
> 
> It looks like there are several bees emerging from what appear to be worker cells. How can this be if LW? Or am I wrong in my observation?
> 
> I am not seeing wing problems other than the ends of some of their wings are ratty looking. I assumed this was normal wear and tear on the wings of older foragers. What am I missing or what do I have wrong?


I'm not seeing a pattern of viable worker brood, maybe there's something emerging, didn't notice. When I pull a frame that has that shotgun-coco-puff pattern, I immediately curse, "d*%n laying workers" and then look for something to change my mind. Now if it was an old frame already ruined by that pattern, a new queen would follow in the footsteps so to speak. That's 1 reason I hate laying worlers - they mess up good comb. Then they just seem to have this psychotic hatred of good queens (not only will they kill introduced queens but I've shook them out and had them go into a neighboring hive and kill that queen). 

Look at the smallish wings kind of held out to the side. Tattered wings on old foragers - I suppose they are there in a strong hive but I don't notice, besides they should have wornout and died on their final foraging flight, now they are just hanging out and eating. 

At this point they are just a liability, tying up equipment and ruining comb... hold onto them long enough, and they'll get overwhelmed by varroa, hive beetles and wax moths - which will eventually end up in your other hives.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Next time take several photos in a row about 30 seconds apart and then look for worker bees dipping their tail in the cells.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

flyin-lowe said:


> Would this be typical of a new queen?


No. This level of spotty brood is not typical of a new queen. 



flyin-lowe said:


> Should I be concerned at this point or let it go.


Yes to both. I'd cut your losses on this. The likelihood of survival is just north of zero.

BTW, I saw no emerging worker bees in your pictures - just drones.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

So if I shake them out is there a certain distance I should take them away from the yard?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

30 yards is probably good. Make sure there are no other small or weak colonies near the location of the old colony. Also, depending on the size of this colony, you may want to reduce entrances on all other colonies in your yard. The idea is that you really want to enable other colonies to interrogate well these bees as they attempt to enter another hive. A one bee width is not crazy, but this does require you to have reducers on hand. Again, it depends on how many bees you've got in this colony.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Look for multiple eggs. Look for the queen. If you find a queen, dispose of her and either give them a frame of eggs or buy a queen. If you buy a queen, see how local of a queen you can find. If you find multiple eggs, then it is likely laying workers.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

Thanks everyone
I have an experience beek who is going into the hive with me later this week. Once he makes an assessment in person and not from a cell phone pic Ill let you know what we do.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

f - l,
You seem to have more problems in your beekeeping than your fair share. Do you have better luck in other endeavors?
W


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Gee Walt maybe he/she is not afraid to voice a problem like some people. Don't forget it benefits those that don't too.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

wcubed
Not sure what is up this year. Last year I started with a package and things went perfect, on schedule, as planned, zero major issues. I got through the winter. This spring I lost the queen in this hive and then lost the second queen. Granted this hive has had issues but it is still going so it is not all that bad. Now the hive in this thread is a swarm (likely a secondary) so it is not unheard of to have issues. I have two other swarms as well (a total of 4 hives). I feel like there are new beeks who have a worse time then I am having, maybe not.

I like to utilize the forum in order to learn. I am sure there are plenty newbies who lose hives every day for what ever reason and never mention it. 

I bought a single package last year now I have 4 hives (probably soon to be down to three) things could be worse.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

fl, i've gotten to know walt pretty good over the last few years and i'm pretty sure that was his attempt at humor and not meant as criticism of your beekeeping efforts. i like mb's suggestion about looking at the eggs for evidence one way or the other. thanks for sharing the interesting case.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

squarpeg is correct. No intention to be critical. I get the message - Don't use wry statements on beesource.
Walt


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

Walt, I don't take any offense and most that know me would tell you first off about my sense humor. I have always said there should be a specific "font" for sarcasm . I was fairly confident you didn't mean anything by it. I didn't want to get sarcastic for the same reason. I was worried about how you might react. This is one of the few forum I have been on were things stay the way they should for the most part so I just gave a neutral honest answer not knowing how to read your response.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

Looks like I spoke too soon earlier about only having one hive with issues. My main original hive from last year that I thought recently requeened itself must not have had a mated queen. Me and my local beek went over tonight to take a look. He confirmed the hive pictured in this thread was laying worker. We went into the original hive because he still did not believe it was queenless originally, due to the large amount of brood we saw in early august. He still says he has never seen such a good laying pattern. Anyway the frame I saw Saturday that I thought had worker brood on it was actually drone brood. It didn't realize it at first because it was a pretty solid pattern so all the brood was the same size and I didn't realize it was drone brood. There was a couple frames today in the lower deep that had spotty drone brood in them as well.

So right now I have two swarms from July that are strong and have a laying queen. From what I have read shaking out the laying worker hives is about my only option. One of my "good hives" has 7 of the 8 bottom frames full and one or three drawn frames in the 2nd deep. Those frames are loaded with honey. The other "good" hive has the bottom deep 80%-90% full and nothing going on in the 2nd deep yet. 

If I shake the bees from my largest hive would it be a good idea to pull the frames of honey from it and split them up and add the to the "good" hives, replacing empty frames?

I have read that I should shake them and not combine them. I would like to learn how shaking is a better option and how that helps rid the laying workers.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

flyin-lowe said:


> Walt, I don't take any offense and most that know me would tell you first off about my sense humor. I have always said there should be a specific "font" for sarcasm . I was fairly confident you didn't mean anything by it. I didn't want to get sarcastic for the same reason. I was worried about how you might react. This is one of the few forum I have been on were things stay the way they should for the most part so I just gave a neutral honest answer not knowing how to read your response.


Off-topic but if you put an askerisk @ (sarcmark) at the end of a statement it's a signal to some that means "sarcastic". Not endorsing sarcastic statements, just saying.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

aunt betty. Like your tag line. Chuckle every time I see it.

flyin-lowe, Did a double-take on your expert's "confirmation...this hive...laying worker." The evidence strongly suggests this hive had a queen - normal worker brood. Have never seen or heard of laying workers and a queen sharing a broodnest. But then, we try not to say never when talking about what happens in a beehive.

As to the advantages of the shake-out, the laying worker, when begging into a queenright hive seems to undergo an attitude change. They seem to recognize they are not in control here, and the resident bees will protect their queen.

Contrary to an input on another thread, have never seen laying workers interfere with a queen in a foreign colony. We have shook out 2 frames of a LW colony on the landing board of a weak colony, needing help in bee power, with no ill effects.

It is pure folly to believe that laying workers will not find their way home if shook out some distance away. They can fly. They are designed to fly distances with a load, and they are not noticeably larger as a layer of eggs. Additionally, they have an unbelievable sense of smell. They can find their hive scent on the wing in a fly-by. Forget all you've heard about them not finding their way home. If home is not there, they have the option to beg in at other hives and are quite submissive to gain entrance.

In short, the advantage of a shakeout is the distribution of bees to other hives at that location. I prefer to direct the bees to where they are needed the most. That is why we shake them out on the landing board of the weakest. The surge of a thousand bees to the entry overwhelms the guards and there is no resistance. They seem to be integrated into the colony without problems.

Walt


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

Walt are you basing your statement that this hive had a queen on the photos or something else? Upon inspecting in person the brood appeared to be drone brood.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

The top part of the first photo shows quite a few flat capped worker brood. Maybe 30 to 40 percent. Some in groups of several adjacent. To me that implies that a queen was present and laying at that time. A queen can lay both fertilized and unfertilized eggs. A laying worker can't do the same.

If now, all brood cappings are domed, something has changed. Could not say it isn't possible, but I am still skeptical.
Walt


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Newly mated queens brood from a grafted cell:










Newly mated queen from a hives natural supercedure (Larva only- top center. Capped brood is from previous queen):










Larva and eggs from a 3 year old queen on a newly drawn fresh frame:



















A good queenright colony will be bring in natural feed, have single eggs, nicely centered in each cell. 












On comb with no diversions to interrupt laying, you'll typically see a spiral laying pattern with a good queen. With laying workers are sporadic. 

Below is a frame from a laying worker colony:










Instead of scraping it all off, I let a hen peck out the larva and clean it up for me, retaining much of the usable drawn comb:


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

Some have pointed out that the flatter capped cells on the front are collapsed and non viable, still from a laying worker. Is that something that others have seen?


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

I'm seeing the same as wcubed a high percentage of drone cells and a lower percentage of worker cells.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

flyin-lowe,
I did not deliberately dodge that question, but I try to stay within my experience base. If capped brood by laying workers can look like queen-laid worker brood, that is news to me, and I have never seen it happen. I might add that some of the flat-capped do not look distorted in any way. Saw those cells where the capping looked like it was slightly below the cell wall top, but that is an error in the wrong direction for a drone larva. Since the cappings question is outside my experience base, I'll defer to those who know. (with reservations)
Walt


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Two years ago I had a mating nuc that showed a very similar pattern. It was only 3 sparsely populated frames of bees, so it would have been nearly impossible to have missed a queen. However, I spent a LOT of time looking, because I saw what appeared to be capped worker brood. I kept coming back to the fact that there was capped worker brood and couldn't accept that a queen wasn't present. I probably should have uncapped the worker brood just to see what was hiding underneath. I honesty don't recall if I ever did that.... Anyway, the colony never recovered and I eventually shook it out. I really kick myself for spending so much time on such a small colony. I've never seen an intercaste queen, so perhaps that was the issue. Not sure....

flyin-lowe,

Try uncapping some of the worker brood and take pictures of what you find. Pull out the pupae to get a really good picture.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

flyin-lowe said:


> Some have pointed out that the flatter capped cells on the front are collapsed and non viable, still from a laying worker. Is that something that others have seen?


Not what was said:


ChuckReburn said:


> Here's what I am seeing, sunken caps on worker brood which to me means dead / non-viable.


The worker brood is not being attributed to laying workers, nor is the non-viable issue attributed to laying workers. My suspicion is a diminished unhealthy population left that brood (laid by the now long missing queen) unattended and it subsequently died. Scratch a few open... Capped DEAD brood doesn't seem to suppress laying workers. A robust colony with a laying queen will clean those cells out but a dying colony will just abandon it.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Laying pattern today of a queen from cell made by a beginner grafter, introduced 8/8/15. I have seen better. No feeding.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Another beginner breeder five weeks after cell intro.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Yes.










No. (Internet photo) 










(Left the photos large so you can see the detail)

Just for comparison, check out a larva about the same age as some of the older larva you see in the first photo, that was drawn out & fed as a queen cell.


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## flyin-lowe (May 15, 2014)

I went back today just to take one more look. Still certain the hives are queenless. The only brood I saw today was drone brood and it was very spotty. I am going to shake out both hives. the two remaining hives I will have are both swarms caught in July. One of the hives I am shaking has very few bees left. The other has quite a bit more. I have the entrances reduced on the two remaining hives to about 2 inches. My plan is to take them 30 or so yards away shake them out and take the hive back home with me. I don't think there are enough bees to overwhelm my 2 remaining hives. Is there anything else I should consider?


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