# My recipe/method for sugar blocks



## Lauri

I ran across these photos and thought I'd post them again. 
I put a sugar block on every hive that is in a single or when the cluster is near the top of the hive. 

25# cane sugar
one quart cider vinegar
sprinkle of electrolytes
1-2 T citric acid (Found in your canning dept)
splash of pro Health or other scented essential oil of choice

Mix together about 1/3 of the sugar and vinegar at a time in a five gallon bucket with a large drill and paint paddle mixer. If you try to mix it all at once, you will get uneven moisture distributation.
Mixture will feel very soft, but not wet or sticky.
I use a shallow aluminum baking sheet that fits right into my Cabelas food dehydrator. You can use any size pan you want, but be sure your bricks are no taller than your frame extension under your inner cover.
Here I sprinkled some dry Beepro on the bottom of the pan.Don't do it, it just gets gummy. Sugar will not stick to the pan after it has dried. 
Fill the pan to desired depth with moistened sugar mix:










Roll out and lightly compress in the pan:










NOW sprinkle with Beepro or other protein mix if desired. I don't want to force them to eat protein if they don't want to, especially if they can't get out for cleansing flights regularly:










Be SURE to cut the sugar into block sized before it hardens. You'll never do it after it's hard. It takes about 2 weeks sitting out in the unheated greenhouse to harden.

But will set up and harden in 1-2 days in the food dehydrator at about 130 degrees:










You can also let it sit several hours in your oven on low temp

Here is the brand of electrolytes and vitamins I've been using for two years with excellent results:










I bought it online at ValleyVet.com (I use about 1/2 tsp per 25# sugar)

Here is the application and overwintering results.
Heer is a double nuc with a large volume of bees. 










You can see the sugar block is almost gone. This photo is late winter 2012:










Even hives that are heavy will still consume this block. I was surprised they would do so, but it didn't worry me they would reserve their natural stores for spring when they started raising brood. And that is exactly what they did.

Here is a photo of a hive that was just bursting at the seams in a single deep late summer. In Sept. Relucently, I threw on an undrawn shallow and left for hunting for 2 weeks. I was surprised to see by the time I got back they had drawn and filled the center of the frames. So now..dummy..I thought, now they get to go through the winter with empty new frames on the outside. DOH! Here is another good example of feed directly above the cluster. Although the bottom deep was packed and heavy, they still seemed to appreciate the sugar. 










All the hives I put sugar blocks on treated them the same they consumed the middle of the block first, directly above the cluster. The condensation from the cluster forms syrup droplets on the brick. Easy for them to take up. Every hive I had, when checked in late winter has open syrup in cells near the brood nest. With no flow that time of year, I attribute this to the sugar brick. 

Even without experience, I think most people would guess new undrawn frames have no use or insulation value in an overwintering hive. Here is a dorkey video I made to show you, in the event you have drawn frames that are empty available, to fill them with at least something-for R value if nothing else. The sugar recipe is exactly the same for filling drawn comb:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwC8aEA3FOw

Here is how they take to the sugar filled comb:










Feed on the top bars, _directly above the cluster_ is very important. I wouldn't use the frames filled with sugar as a reliable feed source overwinter. But it fills up the empty spaces within the hive. And as you can see, do eventually get to it. This frame is in early spring. Below the sugar is new larva and eggs, then pollen. Actually a nicely worked frame. Did they eat the sugar, or haul it out? I don't know for sure, but saw no evidence of sugar granules on the bottom board or entrance area.
Compare the photo above to a natural, honey filled frame below. You can see they work a sugar filled frame just like a honey filed frame:










On a closing note:
Since beekeeping details are critically local, I'll give you a few more details to consider:

My bees are all very dark Northern bred with Carniolan genetics in the background. I overwinter in large colonies, which appear to be frugal with their stores. You might not be able to get away with overwintering Italians this way. 
I feed my bees fortified syrup and protein patties during late summer dearth. Large hives heavy with stores get just enough syrup to keep brood rearing somewhat active. Nucs get fed regularly. I go into winter with a lot of young healthy bees and heavy hives. 

My climate, although wet, is fairly mild. My bees can get out for cleansing flights on a regular basis. There has been some discussion previously on Beesourse that feeding sugar during winter months causes dysentery. I have never had one case of dysentery, ever. I never treat with fumagillin, ever. I do however put cider vinegar in every feed I provide to them. I go through several cases of cider vinegar a year. I wouldn't spend the $$ if I didn't think I got a benefit.
Northern colonies have to endure a fairly long winter inactive period. 

Use REAL cider vinegar, I might add. Not Cider FLAVORED vinegar. 

It is possible, these sugar blocks are not necessary. But I don't have the years of experience some do, and feel comfortable with the extra security. I had excellent overwintering results. 

Hope this helps with your winter prep. Others feel free to add recipes and your techniques.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Miller-Compound-HoneyBees-and-Agriculture/256954971040510


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## Mike Gillmore

Great post Lauri !

If one does not have a dehydrator or greenhouse available, could the pans be put in a conventional oven on low heat to harden the sugar blocks?


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## Lauri

Sure, Just set it on low for several hours.
These Cabelas food dehydrators are very handy to have though. I have even put frames of honey/open nectar in them overnight to be sure the nectar has a low enough moisture content to they won't ferment in storage. Just set it low enough so the wax doesn't melt and walk away. They are digitally controlled and temps are consistent. I've even hatched chicken eggs out in them, in a pinch. They are a little spendy, but I see them regularly in the Cabelas bargain basement for half price. 
They are indispensable for dehydrating food and making jerky.









/IMG]


And that my friends, is straight from the horses mouth!


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## dixiebooks

My, what big teeth you have Grandma.


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## WBVC

How thick are your blocks?
I tried this way ..used a rack dehydrator..and found it took forever to dry...then it cracked. My trays are about 1.75 inches deep.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

> Use REAL cider vinegar, I might add. Not Cider FLAVORED vinegar.


Okay, I confess! I don't have a clue what "cider-flavored vinegar" is! To make pickles and a bunch of other stuff I use the ordinary Heinz Cider Vinegar that has the 5% acid level. So is that the "real" cider vinegar or the "flavored" one?



Rusty


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## Rader Sidetrack

Rusty, Heinz offers vinegar made from _apples_, and calls it Apple Cider Vinegar:
http://www.heinzvinegar.com/products-apple-cider-vinegar.aspx

Heinz also offers vinegar made from _grain_, and calls it Distilled White Vinegar:
http://www.heinzvinegar.com/products-distilled-white-vinegar.aspx


Then there is this product from a different manufacturer that starts with Distilled White Vinegar, then adds "apple cider flavoring";
http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/pro...79721/woebers-5-cider-flavored-vinegar-6-1gal


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## Lauri

Actually, in my area, the gallon size Heinz is Apple Cider _flavored_ vinegar. I believe apple cider flavored vinegar is made from grain, while pure apple cider vinegar is made form apples.
Three Monks brand is the only pure apple cider vinegar I have found.

"Vinegar with apple cider flavoring, often contains the ingredient natural apple cider flavoring, and may also contain the ingredient caramel coloring. (possibly spelled charamel depending on the brand). Basically you are drinking vinegar that has been flavored and colored to look and taste like apple cider vinegar, as a cheaper alternative, and less acidic alternative to traditional apple cider vinegar. Drinking apple cider flavored vinegar, won't give you the same health benefits as drinking apple cider vinegar will. In fact, you are basically drinking straight up vinegar with artificial flavors and colors added, think of it as a kids juice box with "add in's" in it so to speak."


(NaturalNews) Apple cider vinegar is often looked upon by natural wellness enthusiasts as a panacea for all good things. Taking a tablespoon or two of it every day is said to cure everything from gout to allergies and more. It's said that it is important that the apple cider vinegar you take be organic and have the "mother" in it to be of most benefit to you. The mother is a stringy-looking ball of matter that either floats at the top or settles at the bottom of a bottle of the vinegar and is the source of its sour, fermented taste.

Many companies are now creating apple cider vinegar drinks that contain fruity flavors to mask the sometimes harsh flavor the vinegar has on its own. The age of apple cider vinegar as a health tonic is truly here, and while there is only anecdotal evidence that it actually cures many of the things it is said to, there is also plenty of evidence of definite health benefits in other areas.

Here are some of the best documented and strongest health benefits of apple cider vinegar.

1. It Helps Ease Stomach Cramps and Diarrhea

This is a proven apple cider vinegar cure. The probiotics in the vinegar help ease diarrhea and the pectins from the apples in the vinegar ease stomach cramps. Mix a tablespoon or two in water or your favorite juice to get the best results.

2. It Prevents Indigestion

Another proven health benefit is its ability to stop indigestion before it starts. Simply mix 1 teaspoon of honey and 1 teaspoon of apple cider vinegar in a cup of water and sip it slowly a half hour before you eat something you know will cause you indigestion. You'll be surprised that you feel fine after eating!

3. It Helps Ease Nighttime Leg Cramps

This old folk remedy has a long history of proof to its effectiveness. Simply mix a tablespoon of apple cider vinegar with honey to taste before going to bed and drink it slowly. Those nighttime cramps shouldn't bother you anymore. Do this every night before bed for continuing results.

4. It Drains Your Sinuses

Do you have a stuffy nose due to allergies or some other reason? Fix it with a teaspoon of straight apple cider vinegar in a cup of water. The harshness of drinking the vinegar without any flavoring will help drain your sinuses and clear your nose.

5. It Helps Energize You

Apple cider vinegar is excellent for beating exhaustion. The amino acids it contains counteract the buildup of lactic acid you can get after exercising or other intense physical activity. It's also full of electrolytes that help eliminate that tired feeling. Electrolytes are the same thing that are in sugary sports drinks. A teaspoon of apple cider vinegar in chilled water has the same energizing effect without the sugar and artificial colors and flavors.

Apple cider vinegar is also good for treating heartburn, easing the pain of arthritis, whitening teeth, and much, much more. There are entire books written on the miracle of apple cider vinegar. Even though many of its supposed benefits only have folklore to back them up, there is enough concrete evidence of its many benefits that many people take it every day as a general health tonic. Anyone looking to maximize their health could definitely benefit from a daily dose of this amazing amber liquid.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

Okay, so I looked at the label and it says it is made from apples! The contents are apple cider vinegar and water. Sounds like that is the real deal, then.

Thank you both! I learn something new every day!



Rusty


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## windfall

If you use 2:1 syrup to moisten the sugar, it will harden up in few days rather than weeks.....but then you get no vinegar in the mix


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## allniter

this is what I use BRAGG --ORGANIC RAW UNFILTERED APPLE CIDER VINEGAR WITH MOTHER --USDA ORGANIC --MADE FROM 100% ORGANIC APPLES --get it at KROGER'S --I can only get it in quarts ----


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## allniter

LAURI ---how much of the vitamins / electrolytes do U use in one batch ---U say sprinkle some on ---maybe a couple T spoon full


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## NewbeeInNH

I made sugar cakes last winter, but did not use vinegar, just water and sugar, I watched some youtube videos and did it that way. They did crack, but I use them in small chunks sometimes anyway. I had a lot left over so I'm using them for this winter too - it doesn't look like they have deteriorated at all.

Yesterday was a pleasant day, tonight it's supposed to get to 17*F, so I popped the lids yesterday and put extra sugar cakes in there, directly on the top frames (with those thin wax foundation papers under it to keep it from crumbling into the hive) thinking this is probably all I'll do for winter feeding. Pretty much ready to close everything up for winter. 

The dysentary (sp?) is a concern. I hope that doesn't happen.


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## Lauri

Heres a short video showing feeding of the bricks late winter. The bees started coming into the rabbit barn and getting into the cracked corn, so I took that as a sign it was time to give them protein. The results showed the timing was good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsVEP4he82o

With 25# of sugar I only use about 1/2 tsp. of the electrolyte mix. If I remember right, a full package will make 220 gallons of livestock diluted strength water. I'm careful not to use too much. I started out with just a small sprinkle. Worked up to 1/2 tsp. You can smell the vitamins in it. I think that is enough/not too much.

You can also add a Tablespoon of citric acid if you have it, Get it in the canning dept of you local store. 
You want to acidify the brick to a better PH, closer to the bees natural feed and to invert the sugar. That might be why they don't get dysentery, compared to the Mt Camp dry sugar/ non acidified brick method

Here is something I got off Beesource you may find interesting:
A primary reason for acidifying syrup is to "invert" the sugar. Cane sugar is pure sucrose. Sucrose is a 12 carbon sugar made up of two loosely joined six carbon sub-molecules (fructose and glucose). The acid disassociates the sucrose into the component parts, mimicking the nectar. This is termed by kitchen chemists "invert" sugar, and was used for baking. Most nectars (not all) are slightly fructose rich. The pH of nectar varies widely too (and many nectars, not co evolved with honey bees, have large components of indigestible (by bees) seven and greater carbon sugars. Practically, the sucrose sugar syrup can be inverted with vinegar or any other edible acid, and very little hydrogen ion donors are needed on the order of tablespoon per gallon. Ascorbic acid is made up of glucose (6 C sugar ring) with 2 carbon "tail" and various OH groups tagged to balance the Carbon charge. Many animals and their gut flora can synthesize this from any 6 carbon sugar source. A good reason to use at least some ascorbic acid (or tartaric) in the place of some of the simpler acids is ascorbic is a ring structure, while acetic (vinegar) is a simple unbranched chain. The ring is stable and "recycles" Hydrogen OH groups from solution. This means it is continually recovering donor potential and a little bit can invert an enormous solution much like a catalyst in reaction. 

I don't remember who wrote this so I can't give them credit. Nice info though.

Even though this sugar brick is a very small amount of feed, aprox one or two quarts of 2:1 equivalent, I believe it is the_ placement _of a slow but consistent syrup availability that keeps the hive in just a little better shape. It might even just be their attitude that gets the benefit. But a colonies attitude or enthusiasm coming out of winter can make a big difference if you want them to build up well and fairly early. 
Here is another typical double overwintered nuc. 










The thing I notice is, my hives come out of the winter with about the same volume of bees it went in with. And the bees are young bees, not those giant old bees. If you look closely, you will see them starting to try to build up in the center of the remaining sugar block. Their numbers were large enough to take advantage of our early spring Maple flow. A hive on the increase in Western Washington state in February/March is not typical. Our season is short here and early increases are essential to the productivity of my season. I never get chilled brood form a late cold snap, because there are plenty of bees in the hives to keep the building brood warm. I can make early splits and populate my mating nucs because I have the volume of bees to do it. I have to keep my eye out for mite loads with early brood rearing, but they have not been a big issue. My worst few hives I had for mite loads this fall were surprisingly, a cut out from a giant cedar tree and two swarms I collected. 
Here the video of the cut out if you are interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1u1PMZsDtA

We haven't worn our full suits for a few years, but I figured when we started hacking away with the chain saw they would boil out of there. They were very quiet. Yes, we got the queen.

Here is a video of what I am talking about. This was taken March 3, 2012. Remember, I am near the Canadian border. You can see an active colony with capped honey, open nectar and brood. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-ID-ywOEVk


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## Rader Sidetrack

> I don't remember who wrote this so I can't give them credit. 

I believe that would be _JWChestnut_.  See post #23 of this thread:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?273070-Acidulating-Sugar-Syrup/page2


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## enjambres

In the first video above you are feding brownish blobs of "pollen patty". Could you, please, share a recipe for that?

I plan on making some sugar bricks this week as it is too cold now where I am to continue liquid feeding. I use BeeMax styrofoam top feeders. About ten days ago I let them finish the liquid and removed the plexiglass dam that keeps them from drowning in the liquid. I happened to have some opened honey comb left from another project with a fair amount of residual honey in the cells. As an experiment I laid the comb sections on the floor of the feeder and allowed free access to it from within the hive. While the girls were happy to get it, I noticed that after really cold nights I had dead bees in the feeder and on the comb. I think that they got too cold and remained on the honey when they should have gone back down into the hive, but were too honey-drunk to care. So, that's the end of that experiment! 

Back to the idea of feeding sugar cakes laid directly on the upper level of the supers, so I was pleased to see your recipe. Pollen patties later in the winter, right?

Thanks!

Enj.


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## Rader Sidetrack

See post #15 of this thread for _Lauri's _protein patty recipe:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...cts-like-Mann-Lake-Ultra-bee&highlight=recipe


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## Rusty Hills Farm

Rader Sidetrack said:


> See post #15 of this thread for _Lauri's _protein patty recipe:
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...cts-like-Mann-Lake-Ultra-bee&highlight=recipe


Both the recipe in this thread and the patty recipe in the thread above are heavy with apple cider vinegar. Now, I'm not the brightest bulb on the string, you understand, but I am troubled by this a bit. The object is to have "fat bees" coming into spring, right? Because they need something they store in their own body fat to help feed the spring brood, right? Except ACV is supposed to be this great fat FIGHTER that encourages leaner bodies in humans. So isn't a heavy usage of ACV actually counter to what we are trying to do, namely have "fat bees" coming into spring?

I'm not suggesting we not use ACV at all (there's a lot of good stuff in it). Rather, I am wondering if we shouldn't be using it in smaller quantities?

Like I said, I'm not the brightest bulb out there, so maybe I am missing something vital here. Thoughts anyone? 

Rusty


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## Dominic

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Both the recipe in this thread and the patty recipe in the thread above are heavy with apple cider vinegar. Now, I'm not the brightest bulb on the string, you understand, but I am troubled by this a bit. The object is to have "fat bees" coming into spring, right? Because they need something they store in their own body fat to help feed the spring brood, right? Except ACV is supposed to be this great fat FIGHTER that encourages leaner bodies in humans. So isn't a heavy usage of ACV actually counter to what we are trying to do, namely have "fat bees" coming into spring?
> 
> I'm not suggesting we not use ACV at all (there's a lot of good stuff in it). Rather, I am wondering if we shouldn't be using it in smaller quantities?
> 
> Like I said, I'm not the brightest bulb out there, so maybe I am missing something vital here. Thoughts anyone?
> 
> Rusty


I don't think anyone's trying to get obese bees. I don't think it's even possible to accomplish such a feat. "Fat bees", I believe, is just a poetic way of saying "well-fed" or healthy. I can't claim to read into the minds of the people who shared their recipes, but I've heard of a number of reasons for using apple cider vinegar, such as staving off fermentation and adding essential minerals. There's another thread that talks a lot more about vinegar which you might find interesting.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

"Fat bees" refers to this quote from Randy Oliver:


> Bees not only store pollen and honey in the combs, but they also store food reserves in their bodies. This is done mainly in the form of a compound called “vitellogenin.” vitellogenin is classed as a “glycolipoprotein,” meaning that is has properties of sugar (glyco, 2%), fat (lipo, 7%), and protein (91%) (Wheeler & Kawooya 2005). Vitellogenin is used by other animals as an egg yolk protein precurser, but bees have made it much more important in their physiology and behavior, using it additionally as a food storage reservoir in their bodies, to synthesize royal jelly, as an immune system component, as a “fountain of youth” to prolong queen and forager lifespan, as well as functioning as a hormone that affects future foraging behavior!


And here's a picture of it:
http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com/images/stories/beenutrition/fatbees1-2.jpg

And what I am asking is if ACV is touted as useful in weight control:


> A 2009 study on mice showed that consuming acetic acid (the active component in ACV), upregulates the expression of genes for fatty acid oxidation enzymes in the liver causing a *suppression in body fat accumulation.*[5]
> 
> Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/apple-cider-vinegar-1#ixzz2kCrxA5dh


...then are we undoing the vitellogenin accumulation in our overwintered bees when we add a lot of apple cider vinegar to their winter diet?

Since I don't have a clue of how to find the answer to my question, I naturally asked it here, since there are so many people here who actually know this stuff!



Rusty


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## rweakley

Hi, Lauri

Do you think a little too much vinegar would be a problem? I cut your recipe down by a 10th to try it out and my measurements aren't precise. I used about 2.5lbs of sugar and probably 4 oz of apple cider vinegar. If the bottle says in the ingredients that it's apple cider, then that should be the real deal right? My walmart has unfiltered Heinz apple cider vinegar in 32 oz jars, they also have great value apple cider vinegar and the ingredients list says apple cider...

Rod


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## Lauri

rweakley said:


> Hi, Lauri
> 
> Do you think a little too much vinegar would be a problem?
> 
> Rod


Rod, I started off with 2 cups vinegar and 2 cups water in 25 # sugar. But went to all vinegar (1 quart) two years ago an liked it. 
Have you ever tasted bread and butter pickles? That is a strong 50/50 mix of sugar and vinegar. Zippy with lots of flavor. The balance of high sugar and acid content are what give most fruit and veggies their flavor, like tomatoes. I assume the preferred nectar sources are also tasty.


Vinegar itself is really not very strong..just 5% acidity. In plain syrup, I only use a small splash..about 1/4 cup in 5 gallons. But in the sugar blocks, after the vinegar does it's job of inverting the sugar, only the slight acidity, vitamins, minerals, electrolytes, etc are left in the brick after the moisture has evaporated away. The brick is consumed so slowly, the high vinegar content it probably a moot point. but I don't feed the brick in place of honey, I offer it in addition to plenty of natural stores. Which they have so much of, I am surprised they even glance at the brick. But they love it for some reason. I'm not to worried about why. The more stores they save for brood rearing the next spring the better. And like I said in the OP, maybe it is just a placebo effect for the bees too. They feel there is syrup available, even though they don't need it. So they are content. Keep up moral and enthusiasm over the winter months. 
And you know the importance of hive enthusiasm in early spring. Might make the difference between just existing or grabbing a gear. 

You know how worthless a demoralized hive can be too. Keeping up the enthusiasm and momentum in the hive may be as importaint as many other things, and possibly overlooked with overwintering methods..
Some of these are just my theories, based on observations.

I have only good results with the recipe I posted . But if you are not comfortable with this recipe..just change it to suit your ideas.


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## BeeCurious

Lauri said:


> But in the sugar blocks, *after the vinegar does it's job of inverting the sugar*, only the slight acidity, vitamins, minerals, electrolytes, etc are left in the brick after the moisture has evapoera away.


What makes you think that there's any inversion of the granulated sugar?


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## Lauri

Maybe you missed this in the posts above:

A primary reason for acidifying syrup is to "invert" the sugar. Cane sugar is pure sucrose. Sucrose is a 12 carbon sugar made up of two loosely joined six carbon sub-molecules (fructose and glucose). The acid disassociates the sucrose into the component parts, mimicking the nectar. This is termed by kitchen chemists "invert" sugar, and was used for baking. Most nectars (not all) are slightly fructose rich. The pH of nectar varies widely too (and many nectars, not co evolved with honey bees, have large components of indigestible (by bees) seven and greater carbon sugars. Practically, the sucrose sugar syrup can be inverted with vinegar or any other edible acid, and very little hydrogen ion donors are needed on the order of tablespoon per gallon. Ascorbic acid is made up of glucose (6 C sugar ring) with 2 carbon "tail" and various OH groups tagged to balance the Carbon charge. Many animals and their gut flora can synthesize this from any 6 carbon sugar source. A good reason to use at least some ascorbic acid (or tartaric) in the place of some of the simpler acids is ascorbic is a ring structure, while acetic (vinegar) is a simple unbranched chain. The ring is stable and "recycles" Hydrogen OH groups from solution. This means it is continually recovering donor potential and a little bit can invert an enormous solution much like a catalyst in reaction.

I'm not a real chemist. I just play one on Beesource


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## BeeCurious

Without substantial heat I don't believe that any inversion occurs. 

When I add 3.5 grams of ascorbic acid to 25 lbs of sugar in syrup I don't use excessive heat, and I doubt if there's much inversion going on. I simply have more acidic syrup. 

The fact that your blocks are still acid indicates that there isn't much or any conversion...


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## BeeCurious

My primary reason for adding acid is to have a syrup that is more gentle on the bees...


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## Rader Sidetrack

Note that Lauri's quote came from _JWChestnut_, who manages to give the impression that he knows what he is talking about. :lookout:

I don't claim any personal expertise on whether heat is required to invert sugar, but this _B+S Technical Document _says that sugar in plain water - _over a period of weeks _- will invert anyway. Addition of ascorbic acid or heat will result in inversion happening "quite quickly".



> The resulting 1:1 mixture of glucose and fructose is called invert sugar and the chemical reaction is called inversion. In water the reaction is very slow (takes weeks). At higher temperatures and in the presence of acid(s) the reaction speeds up considerably. Thus when cola drinks are made from sucrose, the dissolved sugar inverts quite quickly because the recipe contains phosphoric acid. Similarly, drinks containing citric acid or ascorbic acid (vitamin C) will also invert quite quickly.
> 
> http://www.bellinghamandstanley.com/general_pdfs/techb_pdfs/P002.pdf


(Digital refractometer and polarimeter manufacturers Bellingham + Stanley offer a wide range of refractometers and polarimeters.) http://www.bellinghamandstanley.com/


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## Lauri

BeeCurious said:


> Without substantial heat I don't believe that any inversion occurs.
> ion...


It could be, Bee, I don't know for sure. There is also Citric acid in the recipe which helps with inversion. I _Assume_ the blocks are somewhat acidic. No matter, the bees didn't get the memo. All they know is they like it. They love it. They want some more of it.

I go partly by the fact I don't have any nosema or dysentery problems and never treat with Fumagillin. They consume the bricks well, so I feel the recipe is very palatable.


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## Lauri

The way I look at it, is kind of like tuning your compound bow. You can shoot your arrow through a piece of paper at 5 yards to see if you get a bullet hole or a tear. A bullet hole means you bow is tuned well..but you will generally Still have to move your rest a touch to get it to group perfectly downrange, especially over 50 yards. If my bow groups well , but I now don't get a perfect bullet hole back at the paper, should I change it? 
My answer would be NO.

So my recipe has not been analized by a lab, and I'm not sure of the rate of inversion-if any- has occcured. But the results are what I am concentrating on.


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## WesternWilson

Lauri, thankyou for that very interesting information. It came along just as I had read Randy Oliver's recently posted article on winter feeding of weak hives (with syrup, but that is in California...too cold here on the Pacific Northwest coast to do that, we'd use fondant or your sugar bricks). I am simplifying and paraphrasing, but he found even weak hives you would normally combine with bigger ones in fall, _if fed through the winter_, very often survived to become strong hives in the next season:
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/winter-colony-losses/

And both your info and Randy's work nicely with a local beekeeping story, where a beekeeper combined a weak hive with a strong one and lost both queens. We talked about that and decided it is best to leave the strong hive alone (don't fix what ain't broke), and give the small one some resources and a shot at survival. If it goes down, all you have lost is a weak colony...but if it survives you have a second strong colony next season. 

Sounds like putting on a little extra feed in the hive can't hurt and may help?


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## Chemguy

Lauri said:


> Maybe you missed this in the posts above:
> 
> A primary reason for acidifying syrup is to "invert" the sugar. Cane sugar is pure sucrose. Sucrose is a 12 carbon sugar made up of two loosely joined six carbon sub-molecules (fructose and glucose). The acid disassociates the sucrose into the component parts, mimicking the nectar. This is termed by kitchen chemists "invert" sugar, and was used for baking. Most nectars (not all) are slightly fructose rich. The pH of nectar varies widely too (and many nectars, not co evolved with honey bees, have large components of indigestible (by bees) seven and greater carbon sugars. Practically, the sucrose sugar syrup can be inverted with vinegar or any other edible acid, and very little hydrogen ion donors are needed on the order of tablespoon per gallon. Ascorbic acid is made up of glucose (6 C sugar ring) with 2 carbon "tail" and various OH groups tagged to balance the Carbon charge. Many animals and their gut flora can synthesize this from any 6 carbon sugar source. A good reason to use at least some ascorbic acid (or tartaric) in the place of some of the simpler acids is ascorbic is a ring structure, while acetic (vinegar) is a simple unbranched chain. The ring is stable and "recycles" Hydrogen OH groups from solution. This means it is continually recovering donor potential and a little bit can invert an enormous solution much like a catalyst in reaction.
> 
> I'm not a real chemist. I just play one on Beesource


That is an excellent description, and I will add that either vinegar (acetic acid) or citric acid should work equally well, despite their different arrangements of atoms (ring or not), as long as there is moisture available. No moisture = little inversion.

The acids _are _catalysts in the inversion process, not "much like" catalysts; they speed up the inversion and do not get used up. This means that the acidity will not go away in a sugar block.


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## Lauri

Just to UPDATE this thread. Folks, you need to make these sugar blocks BEFORE you need them. They can take a few days up to a few weeks to dry and harden, depending on how you dry them. Dehydrator, oven or open air. They must be cured and available when you have the window of opportunity of a nice warm day to open your hives and install them. If you make them thicker, they will take longer to dry. But the recipe is right. No need to cook it.


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## AstroBee

What would be the advantages of the blocks versus the standard Mountain Camp approach? I have used the MC approach for many years with (in my opinion) much success - similar to what Lauri reports. I realize that some claim dysentery may result, but like Lauri, I've never seen it. We also have relatively mild winters where bees can fly periodically throughout the winter, which may explain the different observations. I do not add electrolytes or AC vinegar, but have added small amounts of Bee Pro at times mixed into the granulated sugar. Can't say I've seen noticeable differences when using Bee Pro, but our area has plenty of natural pollen coming in very early in the new year.


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## Lauri

What might also work is a mixture of brick and dry methods. Dry suger dumped in hive, lightly sprayed with the vinegar fortified liquid mixture as shown in the recipe. Since it isn't mixed it wouldn't have the same effect of inversion, but would slightly acidify and fortify the sugar. I'd dump in about 1" at a time and _lightly_ spray, then repeat until the whole 5 # is on the hive. Just be very careful about adding moisture in the hive this time of year. I'd also be sure to give them an upper entrance for moisture evaporation.

I have not done it this way, but it could be an option for those that don't want to make bricks.


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## KevinR

I've fed quite a few hives with dry sugar on newspaper. It's not ideal by any stretch, but it works in a pinch. I try to make sugar blocks Lauri's recipe or just sugar/water heated to 250 on a candy thermometer and poured into a brownie pan.

The downside of the mountain camp, is that the bees will lightly haul the sugar out. If it hasn't had a chance to solidify. I'm going to try a slighly damp to clumping state sugar this year in a few hives.. It's easy to get the moisture content correct, than spray with a bottle.


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## marshmasterpat

Lauri - Stop what you are doing, I was looking at the pictures and realized that you are feeding bees horse, sheep, ruminant, chicken, and turkey vitamins. No wonder those bees are doing good, they think they are horses. 

You might confuse those bees if you continue. 

One the serious side, will that type vitamins dissolve well in water. Like it could be added to syrup as a supplement? I could see bees on the coast where we now have had frost and will have temps in the high 70s to low 80s next week, then back into the 40s. This can yoyo all winter long and if you have no nectar until January, I would imagine they will smoke through all the honey they have stored.


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## rweakley

I made up some tonight and I just dumped the vitamins into the vinegar and they desolved like alkaselzer. I sure hope Laurie knows what she is talking about because I'm going all in with all my hives. 

I bought some Heinz unfiltered ACV and wow there is no comparison between that and some other ACV that I had on past. yum. twice the price but at 3.68 a quart still not too bad.


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## LSHonda310

here is the manufactuers information for the Vitamins & Electrolytes 
it is water soluble

http://valleyvet.naccvp.com/index.php?m=product_view_basic&u=country&p=msds&id=1058124

and here is where to order it

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=30e078d3-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5&gas=electrolytes


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## Daniel Y

Lauri said:


> Just to UPDATE this thread. Folks, you need to make these sugar blocks BEFORE you need them. They can take a few days up to a few weeks to dry and harden, depending on how you dry them. Dehydrator, oven or open air. They must be cured and available when you have the window of opportunity of a nice warm day to open your hives and install them. If you make them thicker, they will take longer to dry. But the recipe is right. No need to cook it.


I put the sugar on the hive wet. I also have no transportation issues. I made up a 5 gallon bucket of it and then just spooned it into the feeder board. One of my nucs went through 3 lbs of it in two weeks. they got another 3 lbs last weekend. All other nucs have a total of 5 lbs each and I will keep an eye on how that lasts. It does dry up in the hive.


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## FlowerPlanter

Vitamins & Electrolytes plus

The plus is Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Dried Streptococcus Facium which are LAB lactic acid bacteria. There are several studies out there that show bees fed probitics live longer, have more brood, heavier bees and better immunity against EFB, AFB chaulk brood. 

Also read studies that show that just vitamins added to syrup increase brood and longevity.

I find Vitamins & Electrolytes plus at my local feed store for a few dollars.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

Can you point me to those studies? All I have been able to find is that vitamin B-12 complex is utilized by bees but nothing on any other vitamins (except C). I've found nothing at all about electrolytes. Nor about probiotics. In fact, I was under the impression that lactic acid isn't good for them! Shows how much I know! So any studies that will help me sort this all out will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Rusty

edited to add that I rediscovered this thread among my links and I'm busy reading!

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?214577-Microbial-ecology-of-the-bee-and-hive

It never ceases to amaze me how much about bees some of us know AND ARE WILLING TO SHARE! Thank you, Michael Bush et al!


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## FlowerPlanter

http://scialert.net/qredirect.php?doi=pjbs.2006.589.592&linkid=pdf


Here another one not sure where I got it but if you search the title in google you will find it "IMPROVEMENT OF THE COMPOSITION OF POLLEN SUBSTITUTE FOR HONEY BEE (Apis mellifera L.),THROUGH IMPLEMENTATION OF PROBIOTIC PREPARATIONS"


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## Rusty Hills Farm

Thank you!

:thumbsup:

Rusty


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## Belewsboy

I have 2) nucs that are too light going into winter. Last fall I made candy by heating water and sugar and the block came out really hard. The bees ate it, but I wasn't crazy about the process. After seeing Lauri's post I decided to give it a try. I made up 2) 3/4" shims for the nucs. Then I made the sugar mix using 2) 4 lb bags of sugar and 1/3 quart of AC vinegar. I ordered the vitamins Lauri recommends, but did not use it as I had a small window of good weather to deal with. I did add a little pollen substitute to the mix. I may include some HBH in the next batch, but omitted it on this batch so as not to set off robbing. I placed a shim on a bread pan, added the mix and used a rolling pin to compress. I sliced the cake into 3 bricks and gently removed the shim. They were placed into the oven at 170 degrees for a good 5 or 6 hours. Two bricks broke as they were not dry on the bottom, so I gave them a few more hours. Four bricks remained intact and came out perfect. I really like the consistency of these bricks compared to the hard candy from last year. The whole process was quite easy, and a 4 lb bag of sugar is perfect for a nuc...you'll get 3 bricks of a perfect size since you're using the shim as a mold. I actually only used 2) bricks per nuc. The only thing I will do differently next time is to put the wet bricks on a cake cooling rack while in the oven so they will dry out more evenly and faster. My full size hives I got up to 130 lbs this fall, so I might not need the candy, but last week the lows were 19 degrees...today it got up to 70 degrees so it looks like we're in for another quirky winter. Thanks for sharing, Lauri...I'll let you know how they like it! Here's a picture of a broken brick.


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## Daniel Y

Belewsboy, wait three weeks you may get the chance to use those vitamins. I have one nuc that used up 3 lbs of sugar in 3 weeks.


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## DJW

Sounds Great
I only have a few hives. Have you made smaller batches?
Have you checked the pH level?


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## herbcoop

DJW said:


> Sounds Great
> I only have a few hives. Have you made smaller batches?
> Have you checked the pH level?


I'll let you know how it turns out, I only have 1 &1/2 hives meaning not sure if I'll have enough bees in my second hive.
I made mine with a 4 pound bag of sugar & 1 cup of Bragg vinegar about 1/8 teaspoon of the electrolytes Lauri recommended and about 1/2 teaspoon of dry pollen. I'm going to put it in the oven around 11:00pm tonight on my warm setting and look at it tomorrow morning around 7am that will be around 8 hours.


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## herbcoop

Not sure if i did something wrong, my setting was around 150. Been in oven over night about 8 hours, i checked and still liquefied in areas. Not sure if it comes out of the oven this way or needs to stay in longer. I set my temp to 200 and ill check in an 1/2 hour to see if it changed at all.
Well nothing changed so I'll say I must have done it wrong and I'll let it harden up in the pan and throw this away since it's liquid and brown color not like the other pictures shown, I think once it cools down it'll be like rock candy 
Reading all the post again I say I made the mistake in adding to much vinegar, my mixture was sticky and from what Lauri posted "Mixture will feel very soft, but not wet or sticky."
Well was wanting to put some in the hive today so instead I'll go to the store and pick up another 4# bag of sugar and try again tonight :scratch:


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## Just Krispy

After mixed, it should be like snow..kind of crunchy but slightly moist. I baked mine at 170 for a couple of hours. I found they harden up after they come out of the oven in the cool down process. I put parchment paper on my cookie sheets. Makes it easier to get bricks off the sheet.


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## Lauri

herbcoop said:


> Lauri recommended and about 1/2 teaspoon of dry pollen.


I sometime sprinkle dry protein on top, but not in the mix. (Don't feed them solids if they can't get out for regular clensing flights) By sprinkling on top they can take it or leave it-their choice.
Here is how one of my very smallest mini nuc colonies faired after our 10 days of very cold weather. 
Heres how big the block was when I installed them November 10th. Ya, there are bees in here,just driven down with a puff. This is about a 2 1/2# block. You can see the beepro sprinkled on top:










After 10 days very cold temps..a few days in the single digits-wind chill temps below 0, I went straight out to my smallest mini nuc and took a peak. Temps today reached about 45 degrees, just enough so I could crack the insulated inner cover and take a pic and glance. These were late mating nucs with a virgin introduced early August. Only on 4 -5 half sized deep frames with outside frames being totally empty, foundation only. I left them this way just to see if they would overwinter on a colony that small, in a not so perfect interior. I was glad to see they looked great. I was surprised to see how much of the sugar block they had consumed. Placed directly over the cluster, it gave them the feed they needed with out forcing them to break the cluster move.(Although these had nothing to move to) Placing frames of honey over the cluster would have given them too large an interior. When I get a day that is above 50, I will push the remaining sugar block together in the center over the cluster and will plan to replace it in a few weeks.











*All my colonies in singles*-from 10 standard frames to these small ones got a brick. No need to move to feed within the hive, easy feed source directly above the cluster. Condensation collects on the sugar and makes it available to them in the form of occasional syrup droplets.


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## CreamPuffFarm

Seeing those pics makes me think I better check mine on the next available day. They may go through this much faster than I expected. We've had bitter cold temps here in KS the last couple weeks.


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## Daniel Y

We where able to check on our hives yesterday. they are still goign on the feeding they got in November. the cold weather has slowed them down a bit.


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## WesternWilson

Thankyou Lauri! I checked my hives today as it was just warm and sunny enough for them to take cleansing flights and some need more sugar bricks...will be cooking up a storm tonight, using your recipe!


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## Vance G

I found an easier way and I like easy. Just add 1 pt of water to a 10# bag of sugar ,scale up as you like, and mix til all sugar, water and your other additives are mixed into a sludge. I put the sludge into Dixie placticized soup bowls that hold about a pound and a half. I carefully invert the packed moist sugar and let it dry into a sugar brick or if I don't make them ahead, just invert them wet onto top bars over cluster. I just made some bigger ones up by putting 5# of the sludge into a doubled newspaper and folding it into a square. I bet the bees will get rid of the paper and it will be less messy to handle.


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## herbcoop

OK, I got it to work tonight... Way to much vinegar last time. 
The only problem I encountered tonight was from my wife and 16 year old daughter saying the next time I plan on doing this will be on a Saturday morning or a day off from work and they will be gone all day so I can air out the house "LOL"


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## Lauri

If you use a bit of Lemongrass oil or Pro Health..your house will smell great!


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## herbcoop

Lauri said:


> If you use a bit of Lemongrass oil or Pro Health..your house will smell great!


Lemon grass won't bring on robbing or any unwanted bees to the hive when I put the candy in? I know its used to attract and catch swarms?
Another question when I'm at it, when I add this to my hive to I need to smoke them or should I be good to pop the top and slide a chunk in without them getting cranky? Thanks for your advice


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## Daniel Y

I don't think you need to worry about lemongrass oil attracting unwanted bees when it is added to sugar bricks. Robber bees would be far more likely to be attracted to established hives due to the honey in it than lemongrass oil. Also for this time of year you would not have a whole lot of foraging and robbing going on.

I do not use smoke this time of year either. but timing is a consideration. I like it to be between 30 and 40 degrees. Even at that on a sunny day the bees may be active inside the hive. It makes it hard to add sugar wile the bees are crawling all over what is left.

Keep in mind the sugar is right under the outer cover. I just lift the top pour in the sugar and close it again. you do not want to disturb or break up the cluster they are in. So very quickly in and out and no more than to put sugar at the top of the hive.


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## FlowerPlanter

Made a batch of this a few weeks ago, left it out to dry 1-2 weeks, formed nice little bricks. I made mine about 1/2 inch so I can fit above the inner cover (mason jar hole). Bees started to eat them before the lid was closed. 
Very easy to make, the last few years I've been cooking syrup to candy-- Never Again!

I left the EO out I think the apple cider vinegar is more then enough to encourage the bees to eat them. Also I think the EO's might kill probiotics in the vitamins and electrolytes. Also no pollen for them yet.


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## Chemguy

herbcoop said:


> OK, I got it to work tonight... Way to much vinegar last time.
> The only problem I encountered tonight was from my wife and 16 year old daughter saying the next time I plan on doing this will be on a Saturday morning or a day off from work and they will be gone all day so I can air out the house "LOL"


Hehe. Similar comments here. 

I made some bricks this week, and used 5 lb. sugar plus 3/4 cup of ACV. I didn't have citric acid, but I did have ascorbic acid. I placed about 1/2 of the sugar in the bowl of a stand mixer, added the ascorbic acid, started mixing and then added about 1/2 of the vinegar. Once the sugar was evenly wetted I added the remaining sugar, stirred for a little while more, then drizzled in the remaining vinegar while stirring. I couldn't locate my lemongrass oil, but figure that the ACV may provide enough stimulation. The whisk attachment on a stand mixer made this process a breeze, and the final consistency was like that of wet snow. It only took about 1 minute. I then lined some cake pans with the paper that comes in-between sheets of foundation and molded the mix into 1.5 inch thick blocks. I then 'frosted' the exposed face with some dry MegaBee. The bricks went into the oven at 200 for a couple of hours, and were allowed to sit overnight.

Since it is baking season in my house, the pans go back into the oven after the oven has been used and is in the process of cooling down. So far, no vinegar flavorings to be had, though I did just now have an interesting idea for vinegar-flavored Grinch cookies.

I will place a spacer on the hive when I introduce the bricks. This should happen at the end of the week, when temps are predicted to be in the low 50s after 2 weeks of freezing temps.


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## lakebilly

Wicks sell 55 gallon drums of ACV. I put it in drinking water for cows, chickens, goats, etc. & in me too. (braggs raw vinegar)

I didn't see that anyone mentioned that RAW not pasturized ACV is probably best.


http://wickslivestock.com/conventional-apple-cider-vinegar


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## herbcoop

I was able to get in both hives last night after work around 5:00. I was pleased when opening my small hive with the bees i saw. I put 2 separate bricks over the cluster and few bees went right to it. Big hive i did the same with 2 bricks. Ill need to make some more just in case. Thanks Lauri and everyone else with their input.


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## snl

Maybe try this? I have 2" shims on my hives, so I just take sugar & dump into brown paper lunch bags ... maybe about 2lbs in each. Smooth the bag down so it'll fit on top of the frames within the shims, replace lid, done. I find that the moisture in the hive solidifies the sugar (thru the bag) enough so that when the bees chew thru the bag, the sugar does not fall down between the frames. You can certainly mix in some dry pollen in with the sugar, should you wish.

Works for me.......


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## enjambres

Laurie,

I wanted to thank you for posting your recipe. I was intrigued when you first wrote about it, but with one thing and another the time never seemed quite right. I made 6 lbs worth of Laurie's Recipe blocks yesterday and they turned out just fine. (If you don't count the fact that I was using thin aluminum foil pans trays which caused the dried blocks to crack a bit -- I need to put the foil trays on cookie sheets next time!)

I didn't use any protein sub on this batch as I am broodless now, and since I am in northern NY I didn't want to make things hard for my bees as we still have a long, frigid, January, with limited flying time, to get through.

However, after 10 days of very unseasonably cold weather (below zero air temps at night), today was the day and almost as soon as I slipped the sugar blocks in the girls found them and started having a roaring bee-party. I have never done anything for them that they appeared to appreciate as much. Most of the time they exhibit, at best, a grudging tolerance for my earnest efforts. Whether, as you say, the bees' morale is improved, or not, I know my own sense of bee-competence was hugely bouyed today. As a first year beekeeper, it always seems like I am teetering on the edge of disaster, and I often fear coming here to Beesource lest I will learn of yet another reason I am failing my bees.

But, today, I have my three hives cleaned out, tidied up, successfully moved to their ultimate location, possibly sufficiently reoriented enough to survive the first time they go out en masse, mouse-guarded, and most importantly, having a fabulous sugar "cookie" munch, just in time for Christmas. (My husband dubbed my project making Christmas Cookies for the Bees, so I used a pastry bag to write Merry Christmas in honey on top of each block.) 

So, thank you so much for posting the recipe and pictures, and I hope you and your family and all your bees have a warm, sweet Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Enjambres


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## WesternWilson

Enjambres, let us all know how your hives do over the winter! Your weather is a bit colder than our here in the PNW, but drier, I would think?

I moulded 2" balls of pollen substitute and flattened them, then pressed those disks into the surface of the cooling sugar bricks. That way the bees can choose if they want a little protein snack or not. Our bees were bringing in lots of pollen right into November, so they should have lots of bee bread on hand.

But several of my hives, through various mishaps, were light going into winter. I will follow Lauri's recipe (even made her screened inner covers) and hope that helps them get through. 

2012/2013 winter losses ranged from 25-90% in our bee club. And that takes in a wide range of hobbyists, new-bees, serious hobbyists, small business and huge pollination and honey operations. A complete range, some medicate constantly, some are treatment free, and we alas did not examine why such wide differences in outcomes.

One thing I am thinking about as well is: if the colonies are supported through the winter, and come out strong, _how do I go about building a strong population of mid-June foragers without triggering swarming?_ Advice welcome!


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## My-smokepole

I have only one thought on Laurie recipe. If you back off on the water a little bite you will not need the dehydrated. I got a recipe about the same time as this thread started that had only 3 cups of water to 16lb of sugar. I use a 1/2 drill to mix. 
David


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## Daniel Y

I have a monster drill that I could mix with if I could find a paddle that would stand up to it. this thing could mix sugar by the 55 gallon drum. we used it to drill 1 inch plus holes into a tree stump some 3 feet deep.

I also have a concrete mixer that woudl work for large batches.

Just thinking ahead to when a 5 gallon bucket no longer gets it done. at the rate I am expanding that will be next fall. 5 gallon pails of syrup will not be all that great next spring. I need to get out there and take advantage of sugar prices now before they go back up.


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## WesternWilson

I tried another method...where you fill your moulds with sugar, pour in 2:1 syrup and put everything in a warm dry place to cure. I found that a bit messy. The syrup did not reach all the sugar, and often left a thick goo on the top of the brick...would mix the two in a separate container first. The advantage there is if you want to incorporate bee teas into the syrup, you aren't cooking the tea.

I don't have tons of colonies, so the more time consuming method of cooking the syrup into a softish fondant works for me. The fondant bricks are easier to store and handle: they are solid but not too hard, aren't sticky or oozy.


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## shinbone

I made a 1/3 batch, but it turned out all gooey . . . ?

I calculated the proportions for a 1/3 batch from the original posted proportions to be:

16.5 cups granulated sugar (_edited to add: this is the error. As pointed out below, 8.3 lbs of sugar is actually 18.9 cups_)
1.3 cups cider (1 quart = 4 cups. 1/3 of 4 cups = 1.3 cups)
2 tsp citric acid (1 Tbs = 3 tsp. 1/3 of 2 Tbs = 2 tsp
0.5 tsp Honey-B-Healthy
(I went simple and left out the electrolytes)

Baked at 170F for 8 hours. Allowed to cool overnight.

After cooling, the product is a very stiff gooey consistency, and not nearly as dry as the posted photos. I am afraid it would slowly ooze between the frames if I were to put it into my hives.

I can't figure out what I did wrong. Did I somehow screw-up the conversion to a 1/3 batch. Did I over cook it?

Any suggestions?


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## Vance G

If it is not burned brown you have little to worry about. The easy fix is just mix in dry sugar to absorb the excess moisture. Or just put down newspaper on top bars and pour a couple pounds of dry sugar on and set the candy on top. Merry Christmas.


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## Rader Sidetrack

> 16.5 cups granulated sugar (1/3 of 25 lbs sugar = 8.3 lbs.) 

According to this calculator, 8.3 lbs of granulated sugar is equivalent to 18.9 cups of sugar:
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/sugar_amounts.html



Sugar does not have the same density as water. While _close enough_ may work fine for making syrup, _baking _is not necessarily as forgiving.


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## shinbone

Good to know that I can still use this first batch. 

My sugar conversion was from the Domino sugar website, with no mention that the stated 1 lb = 2 cups was approximate. Thanks Rader.


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## Rader Sidetrack

I looked at the Domino's page when I was looking for the converter linked in post #71 above. 

They are not very helpful suggesting that water and sugar have the same density - that is simply not true.  One would expect better from a sugar manufacturer. 

Here is a similar page from C&H Sugar:
http://www.chsugar.com/baking-tips-how-tos/substitutions-measurements/sugar-measure-equivalents

Using the C&H chart, 8.3 lbs of granulated would be 18.75 cups.


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## Lauri

Not sure about the conversion,I've never measured out 25# of sugar per cup. Also, I don't bake mine, I dry or dehydrate it. Baking may melt the sugar.


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## lakebilly

Lauri, where did you get the electrolytes, & how much do you use? V-C?

Made four of your screened I.C.'s Great Idea. need to make 60 full size. I put planer shavings for moisture, & Hi-R inside tel.covers. I hate opening hives when it's this cold (25f) Now I can @ least see where they're @. 
I ordered Betterbee's "Winter Patties" I hope that they will do until I remedy drying "Lauri's Recipe." I have only an oven & long term use would be an issue w/the warden. Wax paper w/out drying a bad idea?


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## enjambres

I calculated that a ONE-QUARTER recipe would work out like this:

*14.1 cups of Domino's cane sugar * I used a the same Traditional Oven baking site noted above to do the lbs/cup conversion. (BTW, the cheapest place I've found for cane sugar is BJ's Wholesale Club where it's $9.69 for 25 lbs. Feeding sugar at grocery store prices would be ruinously expensive, I think.) It's possible there is a moisture difference between cane and beet sugar.

Edited to add this: Laurie is using lbs of sugar, perhaps directly from marked bags which generally have a bit more than the stated amount. I was using a glass (liquid) measuring cup and was sort of shaking it down to get an even on top. In "real" baking this would be expected to throw off the actual measurements by being MORE than the stated amount you would get by the "dip and sweep" dry ingredient measurement technique with a conventional dry-ingredient measuring cup. So in both Laurie's and my case we may actually be using a somewhat more sugar than our stated amounts, resulting in a dryer product. The next batch I make I'll compare both my measuring methods and see if there was a notable difference.

*1 cup of Bragg's Apple Cider Vinegar*

*1/8th teaspoon of electrolytes *(same brand as Laurie showed, purchased at Tractor Supply for a few bucks)

*1.5 teaspoons of USP citric acid *(from health food coop). I was using the higher amount in Laurie's recipe converted this way 2T X 3 (for T/t conversion) = 6/ one-fourth recipe = 1.5 tsp. At first I thought it smelled very sour and I was a little worried, as it also tasted quite sour when raw. But the palpable sourness dissipated, perhaps as part of the sugar inversion process.

This yielded two almost "quarter sheet pans" (a technical baking size) with the sugar mix firmly tamped down to a depth of about 1". I pre-scored (all the way to the bottom ofthe mixture, not just on the surface) the pans in thirds across the short dimension. I'm glad Laurie suggested scoring it before drying, because afterward it simply wouldn't work.

My pans were thin aluminum trays from the grocery store and that resulted in late-stage cracking when I rotated them in the dehydrator. Sturdier baking pans would avoid this and also allow easier loading as the sides of the aluminum foil tray can't take a rolling pin as Laurie showed, so I had to pat it down instead. The cracked pieces weren't a problem except it takes a little longer to slide them into the hive, which on cold days might be an issue.

* The order of mixing was this:* Measure the sugar into a five-gallon bucket I had set aside for this purpose (way overkill for this small batch); then mix the electrolytes and citric acid into the cup of vinegar, stir and then add the liquid to the sugar in a two or three stages. At first I stirred with a wooden spoon, but found it was easier to just roll up my sleeve and do it by hand, especially to mix in the sugar along the perimeter of the base. A stand mixer would work, too. Then I scooped up handfuls of it and loaded it into the trays and patted it down, firmly. I think uneveness of depth and firmness may promote cracking. The texture as I was loading it was like wet sand, or dryish mortar. The trays dried down to be very firm; you could hold one up by the corner and it wouldn't break off. The edges are a little rough and "sandy". They looked exactly like Laurie's except I didn't have any Ultra-Bee on top as it's too early for that here, I think.

After they were dry, I mixed up a few drops of HBH with warm water and used my finger tip to paint it on the top surface (as if my bees would need that to discover these treats!), and as I mentioned I took a pastry bag of honey and wrote Merry Christmas on each brick (mostly to tease my husband who was watching jealously because he had been hoping for human Christmas cookies). 

I have to say that my girls are WILD about this concoction. I am headed out today to my food Co-op to lay in a supply of Bragg's in gallon jugs as I have a pre-Christmas sale coupon for 20% off.

Enj.


----------



## rweakley

I was too lazy to do the conversions for those 1/2 or 1/4 batches. I went to a straight 1/10th batch, much easier just move the decimal . 25#=2.5#, 1 quart (32 oz)= 3.2 oz and then I just used the 1/8 tsp of vitamins. In a kitchen sized mixer I just mixed the vitamins with the ACV, then did 2 cups of the sugar at a time with an ounce of the ACV. 6 cups to a full batch, then dump in 5 gallon bucket and repeat.


----------



## KevinR

rweakley said:


> I was too lazy to do the conversions


I'm going to give this way a shot... I've had some that came out perfect and others that turned into ballistic gel... Or soft jolly rancher... *shrugs*


----------



## UTvolshype

KevinR said:


> I'm going to give this way a shot... I've had some that came out perfect and others that turned into ballistic gel... Or soft jolly rancher... *shrugs*


One cup of Vinegar to 10 lbs of sugar will work too. Just mix it up so it feels like wet snow and then mash down to block size and into the oven at 150 for two hrs.


----------



## herbcoop

shinbone said:


> I made a 1/3 batch, but it turned out all gooey . . . ?
> 
> I can't figure out what I did wrong. Did I somehow screw-up the conversion to a 1/3 batch. Did I over cook it?
> 
> Any suggestions?


Shinbone my first came out real bad then I tried again and this one came out perfect

1 bag 4 pound of sugar from walmart
1/3 cup of bragg vinegar
4 teaspoon bee pro
1/4 teaspoon of the electrolytes

Mix real good, I used a cookie sheet pan and laid parchment paper down and I spread the mixture on the parchment paper and lightly rolled it out with a rolling pin. I used my pizza cutter to cut 6 blocks. I have a dial oven so I put a meat thermometer in to make sure it was around 170 degrees and then baked for 2 hours and checked. I then left it in the pan on a cooling rack until the next morning then stored them in air tight container


----------



## herbcoop

Lauri said:


> If you use a bit of Lemongrass oil or Pro Health..your house will smell great!


Lauri, I need yours or anybody else that can help.
I just bought these 2 Pure Essential Oil Lemongrass & Spearmint 
100% Pure and Natural, Undiluted
http://www.wfmed.com/lemongrass-choice-up-to-32oz/ 
My question is on the lemongrass, it has a note on the top of the bottle saying "For external use only, keep away from children"
For external use only, can the bees can still consume this without issues?
Now the Spearmint doesn't have that warning on it, neither has them listed aromatherapy so just making sure before using on the girls... Both from WFmed
Thanks


----------



## shinbone

My revised 1/3-batch recipe, below, is an improvement, but still coming out a little gooey on the bottom where extra vinegar seems to collect:

_19 cups granulated sugar (i.e. 8.3 lbs)
1.3 cups cider
2 tsp citric acid
0.5 tsp Honey-B-Healthy
(I went simple and left out the electrolytes)

Baked at 170F for 8 hours. Allowed to cool overnight._

I did apply cakes made by the above recipe, and in the hives where the cluster was near the top, the bees had covered half the cake before I had the inner cover back in place. They like it! But, it would be easier to work with if it was less sticky and gooey.

For the next batch, I am going to cut the vinegar portion in half. Plus, I may be over-heating it, too, and will revise to 140F for 4 hours.


----------



## Lauri

This thread has been interesting to watch unfold. 


_* If you change the recipe or cook it, it will not come out the same*_. Bee Pro is not an ingredient in the blocks. It is an _option_ to sprinkle on TOP. If your bees can't get out regularly for cleansing flights, you don't want to force them to eat solids. Most likley California or Florida are the only places you can feed solids this time of year in the USA.
This is a *NO COOK* recipe. it is dried or dehydrated. Cooking may melt the sugar and give you a big lump of goo.

If you put the moistened mixture directly in the hive without drying it first, you will be putting far too much moisture in the hive during the cold winter months. It's the natural condensation ON the hardened DRY block that makes the tiny droplets of syrup available to the bees. Sugar mix that is already moist will simply ADD moisture and condensation to the hive interior.


----------



## herbcoop

It's been cold at night but parts of the day here in NC have been sunny in the 50's, yesterday afternonn both my hives had activity going in and out. The bee pro i put in my mix isnt really a lot, i figure what they get to eat it'll hold them better over the cold & rain days they can't get out.


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## herbcoop

This is what mine looked like after I finished it








This is what it looks like after 1 week in my large hive, I added 1 more brick in this one last night








after 1 week with my small hive


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## Lauri

Yup, that's how they eat it. Middle first, right above the cluster. This block needs to be pushed together to keep it's location directly above the center of the cluster.
It's great for singles that have no feed to move up to. This is another late mating nuc I'm overwintering. Approx. temp during this photo was 45 degrees.










These colonies take the tiny syrup droplets and store them in the comb right where they are clustering. Makes it unnecessary for them to move onto other feed within the hive. Critical if it is too cold to break the cluster to move. Location of the sugar block is critical. It must be directly above the cluster with immediate access. Not above a barrier, like an inner cover or newspaper.
There is a small microclimate directly under the sugar block that the bees love. It captures some warmth of the colony with a little bit of syrup.. 

Disregard that old left over protein patty you see on the right. Just something I didn't take out of the hive in fall. They were stilll working it at that point so I left it in.


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## SunnyR2000

Thanks for the recipe. Very close to what I currently do for my bees. It is funny to read the comments. 

Looks like we have a similar philosophy - build bees in the late summer dearth. When the local Bee Club President came out to see my hives, she was shocked by the number of bees in my hives. She thought the pollen patty and late summer feeding was going to harm the bees in that they would have too many to feed through the winter. I looked at it like this - if something happened late in the season such as loss of queen, the colony would have the resources available to create a new one. I do offer supplemental feed in the way of blocks in the winter, just in case, as insurance to keep them from starving. We'll see if my approach is a good one - three years and I'm still learning. 

Hope the bees keep me.


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## Lauri

The thing is, even in a hive that has plenty of stores, the bees live off the little bit of syrup the block provides and they leave the honey for rearing brood in spring. My biggest problem is, come spring, some hives are honey bound. But that is a 'problem' I can easily rectify. I'm going to rearrange and checkerboard the big hives anyway. I just remove excess honey, make nucs or give to light hives.
I'd like to have more empty comb for checkerboarding, but my fear or uncertainty of hives starving overrides allowing them to _Just_ have enough stores to make it through the winter.

This is my third year of using the sugar bricks. I see the outcome evey spring and get a better feel for who needs them and who doesn't. They would ALL relish them, no matter how big and heavy the hive, but they are a little time consuming to make and not necessary for all.

None of my hives are light going into winter, so only the single deeps and nucs get the blocks this year.


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## SunnyR2000

This is the the first year I have added blocks and noticed yesterday that two out of the four colonies have eaten most of their block already! Little pigs! The other two hardly touched theirs. I'm cool making the blocks for my small yard.

I can handle a honey bond situation in the spring.


----------



## rweakley

Lauri said:


> This thread has been interesting to watch unfold.
> 
> 
> _* If you change the recipe or cook it, it will not come out the same*_. Bee Pro is not an ingredient in the blocks. It is an _option_ to sprinkle on TOP. If your bees can't get out regularly for cleansing flights, you don't want to force them to eat solids. Most likley California or Florida are the only places you can feed solids this time of year in the USA.
> This is a *NO COOK* recipe. it is dried or dehydrated. Cooking may melt the sugar and give you a big lump of goo.
> 
> If you put the moistened mixture directly in the hive without drying it first, you will be putting far too much moisture in the hive during the cold winter months. It's the natural condensation ON the hardened DRY block that makes the tiny droplets of syrup available to the bees. Sugar mix that is already moist will simply ADD moisture and condensation to the hive interior.



I use 185 in the oven to get it dried out in 2 hrs. At this temp it's like a super charged dehydrator VS cooking it. I had WAY TOO MANY to get made and need them TOO SOON to wait for them to dehydrate naturally and I didn't have a big dehydrator to get it done that way. I did have some I did in my gas oven and the thermostat must have broken, because they did melt into a goo, but those done in a new electric over with a good thermostat at 185 turned out fine. I think if you don't get the ratios right and have a little too much vinegar you can end up with it being a little gooey no matter what you do, so a little less that called for is better than a little too much as far as the vinegar is concerned.

PS My bees LOVE these. All my hives will probably get these from now on (none of my hives tend to be heavy going into winter because of splitting and robbing pressure).

Thanks again Lauri


----------



## Lauri

You are very welcome. Glad you all liked them too. 

They've worked great for me. Bees love them, possibly for reasons I have yet to realize.

Give them a sugar brick and they are content. 
Makes the beekeeper a little content too


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## shinbone

Lauri - Thanks for starting this thread, sharing your recipe, and your continued input. I know you use a dehydrator for your sugar bricks, but I don't have one and needed bricks faster than air drying would provide, thus my use of the oven. BTW, could you comment how you came to add the electrolytes to the recipe?

herbcoop - could you post your finalized recipe and preparation method? Thanks.


----------



## Lauri

If I was going to use an oven to dry the bricks, I'd set it on about 130 and leave it overnight with the oven door cracked. (Please don't burn you house down. A new battery in the old smoke detector might be a good idea. ..Just sayin ) I've seen folks do this on youtube and it seems to dry the bricks well.

I started adding electrolytes when I observed the bees sucking compost tea out of the big drain holes in the fruit tree pots the last few years. They almost swarm around these holes, removing some of the soil, even though there is plenty of water resources on the place. I assumed they were after minerals, electrolytes or enzymes of some kind. I started adding the electrolytes with vitamins to syrup, patties and sugar blocks to fortify them. I started out with a very low dose and gradually increased until I felt it was sufficient without being too strong. The bees don't go after the drain holes near as much since I started doing that. This brand of electrolytes is a multi species formula, non specific to cow or swine. It had a high level of sugars and acids compared to other brands.










Here is something new to me someone suggested as a suppliment. "Micronized Azomite"

This naturally mined, volcanic mineral has over 66 minerals and trace elements that are important for plant nutrition and growth. It improves depleted soils. Apply with compost, humus, manures, or other fertilizers to provide additional levels of nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. Will not burn plants. 

http://www.7springsfarm.com/azomite-for-plants-micronized-powder-44lb/

They used it in feed, but I was going to use it to top dress my fruit trees in pots, water them and let the bees take up the liquid from the drain holes. The soil will filter out any solids. I'll to a test to see if the bees are more attracted to these pots VS the other unfortified ones. I'm very careful about feeding bees. I wouldn't personally mix this product with feed directly.

I grow fruit trees and blueberry bushes in pots for another home project. (Like I need more things to do)



















These are 8 year old "Duke" Blueberry plants in 25 gallon pots. All these plants are potted in a mix of composted horse manure and peat moss. The Micronized Azomite might just be a good addition to that mix and give the drainage juice that "Starbucks" appeal.


----------



## HIVE+

For those who are having problems with gooeiness, you could make the recipe for sugar cubes using vinegar instead of water. The recipe calls for 1 tsp of liquid for 1 cup of sugar, scaled up that's 1 1/4 cups of liquid for 25# of sugar. Mix well and mix some more to moisten every crystal and _pack_ into your pans and score. No need to dehydrate, they set up overnight (I don't use pans, I use frames, so bottom is not confined), might need to put another pan on top and invert to check the bottom.
To achieve the acidity that Laurie is using, you might use more ascorbic acid mixed into the dry sugar and you can mist the hardened blocks with vinegar, allowing it to dry between applications. 
Try the 1 tsp liquid to 1 cup sugar to convince yourself.


----------



## herbcoop

Shinbone, i did already look at the last post on page 4. If you have any questions let me know


----------



## lakebilly

Lauri, would you mix & spritz litely the HBH on top of brick?

HIVe+, you are saying, no H2O, only ACV?


----------



## HIVE+

Lakebilly,



> you are saying, no H2O, only ACV?


 Yes, that's the way I mixed my last ones up and they did fine. I pmed Chemguy about concentrating vinegar, trying to get all the goodness of Lauri's recipe into the small amount of liquid I needed, but it's time consuming, at least the way I did it.
If inverting the sugar is the goal, remember Chemguy said the vinegar molecule's catalytic power is not used up, and IMO, the moisture for the reaction will be supplied from condensation.


----------



## Just Krispy

The best bet in Lauri's sugar brick recipe is to follow it to the letter. It can be halved and quartered if you don't have that many hives, but if its gooey, you either cooked it, or used too much ACV. The non cook part makes it easier to manage...no candy thermometers,,,etc.


----------



## enjambres

My girls are still grooving on the first set of bricks I put in last weekend. 

Yesterday I cleaned the bottom of the hive to remove dead bees (It's very cold here and I use a wooden entrance reducer that gives the morgue beesa lot of work to remove the corpses, so I help them out.) I also cleaned off and reinserted the sticky boards underneath my screened bottoms.

What I noticed, however, is that each hive had about half a cup of sugar debris that had fallen off the bricks, or been removed by the bees for some reason. Has anybody else seen that? It's not a big percentage of the bricks, and maybe if I ran solid bottoms the bees would be gathering it up from the floor for later consumption (ick!). But I would like it better if they ate it all, right from the brick. My bricks are quite hard when I put them in.

In contrast to Laurie's (PNW) winter climate, I am (in northeastern NY) colder and considerably drier. So I'm wondering if due to the hygroscopic nature of sugar, her bricks stay slightly more humid than mine, which may dry out too much around the edges and tops. Hence I may get more crumbliness. 

What is remarkable, nonetheless, is the bees' demeanor change (I hesitate to say the word "mood", even though that's what it seems like to me, their beekeeper) when the sugar bricks are in the hive. They are just mellow. When I was working around them yesterday: repeatedly poking a stick in under their cluster to scrape out the dead bees; shining bright lights in with a mirror to see what I can see; moving the stacks slightly to reconfigure their insulation panels, etc. They would peek out, or a few guards might fly out to land on my hands then just cruise back in when they'd satisfied themselves all was OK. I fed syrup in the fall and they weren't like this. It is very pleasant to work such calm and content bees.

*@Shinbone:* I wouldn't reduce the vinegar by half next time, I'd reduce it by ONE-QUARTER. In other words just use 1 cup, instead of 1.3 cups. I used 1 cup vinegar for 14.1 very well-packed cups (so probably somewhat more than the nominal 14.1 cups). Just put of curiosity could you describe what kind of sugar you are using (beet/cane/unspecified? and packaging and size and pre-use storage conditions?) I am using Dominos Cane from 25-lb coated, woven polypropylene bags that are stored in a slightly humid and very cold environment (my unheated larder which has a wooden floor set directly over dirt - this is a Pre- Civil War house with all the latest mod. cons., c. 1840.) No matter how you made it, I'm sure your girls are loving it!

Enj.


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## shinbone

enjambres - Thanks for the suggestions. To answer your questions:

I am using white granulated sugar purchased about 6 months ago and stored since then in my house in a sealed plastic container sold for storing pet food kibble (think big "Tupperware" container). I don't know the source of the sugar before processing. The sugar originally came in a 25 lb paper bag from my local supermarket. I think the brand was "Dominos."


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## enjambres

@Shinbone:

I think that Dominos 25-lb sugar bag (do you recall if it was originally a yellow and white package?) is probably the same sugar I use, e.g. cane sugar, not beet. My sugar may be a little more humid because of its storage conditions, but otherwise the same thing. Just try a bit less vinegar and see what happens. 

I have to make another batch soon, and I will do a better job of measuring the sugar in a dry measuring cup, not just approximating it in a liquid measuring cup like I did the first time. (Too lazy to wash two measuring cups!)

Enj.


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## Daniel Y

I am blessed here. You can store sugar exposed to the air. Not enough humidity to make it clump.


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## BlueRidgeBee

Hello, 
Thanks so much for this thread - the bee bricks are exactly what I need to put on a couple of my hives. I made the first batch last night using with 4 lb of sugar and 1/3 cup of vinegar and a very small pinch of citric acid (the kind used for canning). I didn't have electrolytes but used a teaspoon of Honey B Healthy. Dried them in kitchen oven on about 180 with the door propped open a bit. It took about 2 hours for them to dry into bricks perfectly. 

*I'm concerned because they smell to me *very* strongly of vinegar!* Used 1/3 cup of regular Heinz apple cider vinegar (made from apples it says on jar). Is that strong vinegar smell normal? Noticed it when I opened the zip loc bags for a moment today. Didn't know if I got the proportions off on this small batch. I used the proportions from the recipe Herbcoop posted earlier: 




> Shinbone my first came out real bad then I tried again and this one came out perfect
> 
> 1 bag 4 pound of sugar from walmart
> 1/3 cup of bragg vinegar
> 4 teaspoon bee pro
> 1/4 teaspoon of the electrolytes
> 
> Mix real good, I used a cookie sheet pan and laid parchment paper down and I spread the mixture on the parchment paper and lightly rolled it out with a rolling pin. I used my pizza cutter to cut 6 blocks. I have a dial oven so I put a meat thermometer in to make sure it was around 170 degrees and then baked for 2 hours and checked. I then left it in the pan on a cooling rack until the next morning then stored them in air tight container


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## Lauri

Ya, they smell like vinegar all right. Draws the bees like a magnet. 
Have you ever smelled bread and butter pickle brine? It is 50% sugar and 50% apple cider vinegar, along with some spices. Smells very strong, but tastes wonderful. 
If you think about it, the condensation from the hive probably _dilutes_ the brick, a little at a time so they can consume it. 

It's the balance of acids and sugars in fruit and tomatoes that give them the best flavor. 

The way the bees relish the bricks, they seem to enjoy the robust flavor.

Don't worry about the smell of the vinegar. Really, what else_ would_ it smell like with those ingredients? Sugar has no real smell or scent of it's own.


----------



## BlueRidgeBee

Thanks for that reassurance! It seems so unusual that bees would like vinegar. This is a great technique and I appreciate you posting it. I love your Facebook page too Lauri.  I appreciate so much all the things I've learned here - folks have been so wonderful to answer questions too.


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## herbcoop

Blueridge, as Lauri said i
t does smell like vinegar, I'm surprised that thats the only time you smelt it was when opening the bag. Mine stunk up the whole house "LOL". I'll use a couple of drops of lemongrass in it next time to see if my wife and daughter can handle that smell


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## Eddie Honey

Small Hive Beetles love apple cider vinegar. 
I assume it won't be a problem in the winter?


----------



## Lauri

I don't have small hive beatle up here, so I can not answer that question.


----------



## jamneff

I have been looking for a recipe for sugar blocks, I have found several online and on here. My question is some call for the sugar to be cooked to certain temp. and then there are the ones that aren't cooked, which is better for the bees, why are some cooked and others not cooked?


----------



## BlueRidgeBee

I thought of this too. Am planning to use them only in winter for this reason. Not sure how bad the SHBs are here in the Blue Ridge, but when I lived in Arkansas, had to use beetle traps. Put some pollen patties on a weak hive one spring and the beetles got in it -- yuck!


----------



## Lauri

I made some more blocks today. I have to say, the sugar I stored in the barn for three months has a bit more moisture in it than when I bought it. The C&H paper sacks are not as good as the plastic sacks with handles they used last year. They were more like feed sacks. I used 1/4 less liquid and it turned out about the same. So looks like sugar moisture content may play a part in liquid amount of recipe. Mix is a little dryer, I'll see if it hardens up the same.

Heres what those plastic sacks look like:










Here are a few links to the government sugar sale.... 

USDA Took $53.3 Million Loss on Sugar-to-Ethanol Sale

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20130930-709635.html

http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...sugar-at-loss-to-ethanol-maker-to-ease-glut-1

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/18/usa-sugar-surplus-idUSL2N0HE20M20130918


----------



## herbcoop

Eddie Honey said:


> Small Hive Beetles love apple cider vinegar.
> I assume it won't be a problem in the winter?


I seen quite a few & I put traps in the hives in Oct - Nov but I haven't seen any on my sugar bricks, my large hive and with my weak hive just bees no sign of beetles


----------



## Blocker

I'm wondering if anybody thinks the probiotics in this vitamin mix provide a benefit to the bees??


----------



## Rusty Hills Farm

One of them does. Can't seem to find my link at the moment, but, yes according to my research one of the 2 probiotics mentioned is effective on bees.

Maybe Rader has a link?

HTH

Rusty

_edited to add_ this quote from a post by Michael Bush: 

http://web.uniud.it/eurbee/Proceedings/Diseases.pdf

"During a study aimed to characterize the intestinal microflora of honeybee larvae
and adults, we found that some lactic acid bacteria inhibit in vitro the growth of these
pathogens. These bacteria, belong to the genus Lactobacillus, are normal inhabitants of
the gut of honeybees and are GRAS (Generally Regarded As Safe).
Strains of this genus have been shown to have important metabolic and protective
functions in the gastrointestinal tract, interfering with enteric pathogens and
maintaining a healthy intestinal microflora."


----------



## hilreal

I tried a little honey be healthy in mine. Anyone see any negatives? Didn't use a lot but it really smells when drying.


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## herbcoop

*Lauri- Thats a whole lotta sugar you have there "LOL"*


----------



## Blocker

I found this about the probiotics http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3299755/


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## Lauri

Herb, that's only 1/2 ton. 

I used 2 1/2 tons last year. But I made up a lot of nucs and doubled my size from 55 overwintered hives to 130 colonies overwintering right now. All from my own stock, no purchased bees. That's why I'm busting my buns making more equipment to accomodate the colones anticipated spring growth. I'll be forced to sell nucs this year. I can only handle so much growth each year. Many of these colonies are overwintering in four deeps and will need to be split into nucs this spring. Which means I'll need sugar.
It's all good, but sure keeps me busy.


----------



## herbcoop

Thats totally awesome :applause:



Lauri said:


> Herb, that's only 1/2 ton.
> 
> I used 2 1/2 tons last year. But I made up a lot of nucs and doubled my size from 55 overwintered hives to 130 colonies overwintering right now. All from my own stock, no purchased bees. That's why I'm busting my buns making more equipment to accomodate the colones anticipated spring growth. I'll be forced to sell nucs this year. I can only handle so much growth each year. Many of these colonies are overwintering in four deeps and will need to be split into nucs this spring. Which means I'll need sugar.
> It's all good, but sure keeps me busy.


----------



## shinbone

Just posting photos of my Lauri-Bricks in action as made by the recipe version I posted in Post #82. These LBs were on the hives for 7 days when the photos were taken. Hives #1 and #2 are digging the LB, as posted below. Hives #3 and #4 (no photos) have hardly consumed any of the LBs, though they are working on it. All the hives do have at least some honey, too.

Hive #1:





















Hive #2:


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## MES613

Shinbone: Do you mind my asking about that device that's sitting on top of the frame of your Hive #2? Temperature/humidity sensor? Perhaps that lost remote control?


----------



## shinbone

MES613 - it is the remote sensor for temperature and humidity measurements, with the receiver in the house. The receiver will monitor up to 8 remote sensors, and I have sensors in 8 of my 11 hives. As the photo shows, this doesn't monitor internal cluster temp/humidity, just the temp/humidity at the top of the hive. I've never monitored internal hive temp/humidity before, but I was thinking it would be an easy way to tell if a hive had died before the weather allowed me to open the hives and do inspections in early Spring. If a hive dies, the internal temp will be close to the same as the ambient temp. The hives, so far, have maintained an internal hive temperature 20F to 30F above the ambient, and there is a large temp and humidity variation from hive to hive. As of today, no dead-outs (knock on wood). Probably not all that practical, but it is very interesting.


----------



## FlowerPlanter

Blocker said:


> I'm wondering if anybody thinks the probiotics in this vitamin mix provide a benefit to the bees??


Yes there are all kinds of studies, probiotics-LAB inhibiting AFB, EFB, Chaulk brood..., bees will eat probiotic patties quicker (quite a few companies are now adding LABs to their patties). The LAB enables the bee to utilize more nutrients as well as preserving the nutrients. 




hilreal said:


> I tried a little honey be healthy in mine. Anyone see any negatives? Didn't use a lot but it really smells when drying.


Yes EOs will kill LAB in the patties/sugar blocks and the bee's gut.


----------



## MES613

Cool idea. Are they your design and/or commercially available? -Mark


----------



## shinbone

MES613:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BWWQY82/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Range is about 100' - 150' line-of-sight when placed inside a hive. One intervening wall will easily halve that. One or two of the farther sensors lose connection when the ambient temps gets down to around 0F using Everyready Lithium batteries. Connection comes back when it warms up.

I've got a few of these in use, too:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000PAQ32O/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i02?ie=UTF8&psc=1

In the field:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?291469-Winter-time-fun

Since it is a hardwire connection, it is very reliable, but I can't monitor the hive temps while sipping a beer in front of the fire.


----------



## papa

I made some sugar blocks with your recipe today!!

Two notes/recommendations

1) make sure you have enough pans to form them in. I used every (6) 9x13 sheets in our house PLUS an 18x26 drip pan I use to drain comb honey to make them.

Maybe start with a half batch if you have less than 10 hives or have limited sheets to form them in?

2)the lowest setting on my oven is 150 degrees. The sugar melted and overflowed the pan and made a bit of a mess in the oven. 

Maybe heat up the oven to the lowest temp. Then turn it off right as you put the sheets in.

I am excited to try them as soon as I can!!


----------



## shinbone

In my most recent batch, I reduced the vinegar by about 30%, and let the bricks air dry with a fan blowing across the top. The mixture was rock hard in about 4 hours.


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## DC Bees

Hi all, can I use acid blend (food grade citric,malic and tartaric acid)in place of citric acid? I have a bag for wine making that I can use If It Is safe, thanks.


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## FlowerPlanter

shinbone said:


> In my most recent batch, I reduced the vinegar by about 30%, and let the bricks air dry with a fan blowing across the top. The mixture was rock hard in about 4 hours.


Finished my second batch a week ago, I also redueced the vinegar 10-20%, thin sheets and air dried for 3 days.



DC Bees said:


> Hi all, can I use acid blend (food grade citric,malic and tartaric acid)in place of citric acid? I have a bag for wine making that I can use If It Is safe, thanks.


I don’t know what malic and tartaric acid do to/for bees, you can leave it out, it will still work. 

The most important part of the recipe is the sugar. Then the vitamins (very good for bees). The ACV has some amino acids and proteins and lowers the PH. 

You could make this recipe with plain water and it would keep your bees alive. People using the mountain camp just use sugar.


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## beebze

This is a very informative thread. Thanks 

I use 30 lbs of sugar, to 1 1/2 qrts water included in the water is 4 oz of monks apple vinegar. (We also put in HBH just before we pour the mix into the lids.) I bring it to a boil, let it boil for 10 minutes. Then pour into lids. I have a 1/2" rim around on my lids. Never thought to using citric acid. Citric acid really change the dynamics of the mixture. We ended up only using a teaspoon of citric acid and we use less water too. Still comes out a little tacty though. The Citric made the mixture Crystal clear. I'm going to try the electrolyte plus in mix too. I just got a ph meter going to put it to good use soon. I do 10 lids with this mixture.


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## herbcoop

Since winter is close to being over, I was wondering while reading other posts about hive die outs and all the losses. I was in that situation last year and I know I'm not home free yet but my question is since this year I did use these sugar brick. How many of you using these sugar brick this year have had hive die outs?
Some of the folks I've taked to or read said they basically did nothing over the winter, but my 2 hives are great so far and I know next year I'll be making these bricks again.
Thanks in advance for posting the results


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## rweakley

I think these blocks are great. BUT a person needs to realize they aren't a cure all. If your bees have too much varroa present these blocks won't save them. If your bees how NO other feed what so ever and it stays cold and dry these blocks can't save them. Other than those 2 extremes I think they are a big help.


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## herbcoop

Thanks Rod, yep I understand that but I liked the idea Lauri mentioned to put the sugar brick over the cluster, I think on the starvation where the cluster won't move to get food this helps prevent that.. That thought makes me happy then worring all winter "LOL"


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## Vance G

Bees often will not cross the small gap to get to a super of honey that is added because there is no bridgecomb ladder to take them there. Putting dry sugar on top of inner covers is even worse that way. Sugar bricks and dry sugar on the top bars is almost always found. The bees will indeed consume it and can live off it as there only food. They can't raise brood on it but they will survive on it until the hive has warmed up enough for them to go find the bypassed cells of pollen. 

Those are the facts. If someone would rather lose bees to starvation over winter for their various reasons, that is there business and they are welcome to continue. I will just offer my wintering percentage and leave it at that. 23/24 so far. The one that died out did it in November a victim of my mismanagement queenless. 

I may have other hives die out because they went queenless over the winter, but they have survived a long cold winter with two separate bouts of -35 actual temperatures and howling cold winds. Bees cannot learn to winter by eating lids.


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## Just Krispy

I had bricks over mine and it appears they had been eating them. They also had honey in frames. I am assuming they died during the 23 straight days of below zero temps we had.


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## My-smokepole

I made some I migrating lids that I set up as candy boards. But a little bit different recipe. 16 lb of sugar to 3 cup of water. Did substitute on some 3/4 of a cup of vinegar and some honey bee healthy. And seam to work great. With some patty. I know that it Defiantly saved some of my hive.


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## urbanoutlaw

rweakley said:


> I think these blocks are great. BUT a person needs to realize they aren't a cure all. If your bees have too much varroa present these blocks won't save them. If your bees how NO other feed what so ever and it stays cold and dry these blocks can't save them. Other than those 2 extremes I think they are a big help.


So true. I lost one hive during the extended cold when they tried to cluster on the sugar (plenty honey elsewhere).

I made a cooked version of this, and the bees prefer it to honey. Too convenient to pass up I guess!


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## WesternWilson

I had some big problems in my apiary last summer, problems that left me with under-provisioned hives by the end of the year. The bees were not at fault, and I not only fed them up with syrup in the fall, I left sugar bricks on all the hives and replenished whenever I could. We had enough warmish sunny days throughout the winter that I could take a quick look and slide in another brick if necessary (I have a 2" shim between the upper box and the quilt box just so I can feed....like best when one side of the shim is screened). I think most of the hives are going to make it...I would have lost half to 75% if I had not fed. Leaving emergency rations on is just good insurance. I would NOT like to rely on sugar bricks...certainly this year I hope the bees have a normal harvest, allowing me to leave them their own honey. But the sugar bricks are there, over the cluster in the column of warm air, easier maybe to get to on a marginal day than honey a couple of frames away horizontally. I will definitely use them again.


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## Belewsboy

I went into winter with 4 double deep hives and 2 single deep 5 frame nucs. I made a batch of bricks a few months ago and the girls have really enjoyed them. All my hives had plenty of stores... I got the full hives up to 130 lbs last fall. But on the warm days I would crack the covers and the bees were all over the bricks. I will definitely use them next winter. As far as my losses, I did lose one of the nucs... Didn't think it would make it as it was a late split and the cluster was really small, but I think the bricks have saved the other nuc. And just for the record, I treated the full hives with OA just once in December.


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## Lauri

I was wondering how you folks that used the sugar blocks made out this winter? 

What kind of losses/success did you have and how did it compare to your experience before using the blocks?

These are January/February pics. The feeder you see in the hives is empty, just left in to take up space. I had excellent overwintering results. I used the blocks on nucs made in 2013 and all single deeps, including the mating nucs you see on half sized deeps.


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## Hoot Owl Lane Bees

I had 4 hives going in to winter and the 2 that took the sugar blocks came out very strong. 
The 2 I lost should have been combined as they both died out with stores 1 1/2" from the clusters. 
To many day's bellow 0.
Thank you I will be using it next year.
Jim


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## allniter

too many days below 0 in a row -even with plenty of store they couldn't break cluster to move over to store --when they eat from blocks they were all over them


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## WesternWilson

Awesome colonies, Lauri! I got 19 out of 20 colonies through the winter, thanks to putting on sugar bricks all winter above the cluster, in spite of having many of them go into fall light. Now as they meet the good weather, we will see how the queens are building and make evaluations on performance rather than simple survival.


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## Brad Bee

Lauri, if you bought 2 1/2 tons of bagged sugar here, you'd probably get visited by the revenuers. 

With some yeast, some cracked corn, a little rye, and all that sugar, and some copper pots and tubing you could make a fortune! LOL


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## TNTBEES

They worked great here in cold Montana. in fact we are still feeding them. Lost one out of 12 that were fed them.


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## enjambres

Lauri,

I put your sugar bricks on my hives December 22nd and they are just now finishing up the last crumbs of the last batch. All through this fierce northern NY winter, I kept prying up the quilt boxes enough to slip in re-inforcements.

To say that the bees adore them, is an understatement - they are MAD for them! And the bricks seemed to change the colony's mood, somehow. Before the bricks they were normally excitable, but they got used to the regular re-supply and got mellow enough that I could handle them (push them gently around to make a clear space for the new bricks, for instance) with bare hands. 

In NY there were awful losses last winter. NYBeeWellness commented recently that so far their annual survey is showing about 48% losses, mostly attributed to cold and starvation. 

I had NO losses. Of course, I only have three hives, but still! And I give complete credit to your bricks: they kept the bees carb-stoked and happy all winter long. I'll definitely be using them again next winter.

Thank you so much for sharing your recipe. Fern, Buttercup, and Iris want to say, thank you, too. 

Enj.


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## jim81147

Lauri , when you put your blocks on the hive , how long do they usually last you? My Russians eat those things like they were ,,,,well ,,, candy


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## Hogback Honey

Is that a quilt/eke, combination? Looks like an eke with a screened top.


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## Daniel Y

I had sugar on all 23 of my hives. 100% survived. I lost one during early build up to robbing that I did not catch in time. So a word of caution. don't leave a hive unable to defend their food stores. not even the stores you added.


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## Just Krispy

I put sugar blocks in when I buttoned up the hive in the late fall. I think it was a factor in my bees not going down into the lower frames. One hive ate all the sugar in December and January and were very high in the hive before dying. The other had left the sugar and was deeper in the hive, but only went down a couple of mediums. What I learned is that I need to use a queen excluder to get my queen in the bottom box in early fall so they put honey above her. Then put sugar blocks on later in the winter.


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## shinbone

Seems like most are reporting very good luck with the sugar bricks. Unfortunately, I am the odd man out on this.

Most of my hives just ignored the sugar bricks. One or two hives did consume about half to three-quarters of the provided sugar brick, but I can't say for sure how much of a difference it made in their winter survival.

The 3 out of 11 hives that died over winter had not consumed much of their sugar bricks, and did have a substantial amount of untouched honey stores. These 3 hives died during our mid-Febraury cold snap with lows in the -15F to -10F range. When cleaning out the deadouts, I found that the sugar bricks had crumbled and collapsed directly onto each cluster. As if, perhaps, the humidity generated by the cluster had somehow percipitated the collapse. Not sure if this happened before or after the cluster died, though. It could very well be that these hives would have died no matter what I did for them.

At the end of Winter, I had lots of uneaten sugar bricks. I used these leftover bricks to make the first batch of 1:1 sugar syrup for the season, which was consumed by the bees at their regular rate of uptake.

The previous year I had "mountain camped" my hives, and had no issues with sugar falling onto the clusters.

For the hives that did survive, I did not see any correlation between sugar brick consumption and late-winter or early-spring strength.

Not sure how much of a conclusion I can draw from the above, but, at least for the deadouts, the sugar bricks did not seem to help and may have caused harm. Again, I can't say for sure what happened. 

I know I had struggled to make sugar bricks that had the proper consistency, so maybe I still didn't get the recipe right. Plus, I know Lauri has great results in her apiary. Anyway, for my local conditions, I am not sure if the benefits are sufficient to warrant further experimentation with sugar bricks. Please note that I am not saying sugar bricks are bad for everyone, or don't sometimes help, etc., just that, so far in my one brief attempt, they haven't worked for me in my circumstances/conditions.


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## WWW

Shinbone,
I also had problems with the Louri bricks falling apart in the hive this past winter so I returned to the stove top method of candy making. I know it was probably just me not getting the method of manufacture right but I was in a tight spot and needed to get some feed on the nuc hives that same day so I went back to what I knew worked for me. I may try the LB bricks again in the future when I am not rushed.


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## TNTBEES

My wife made a batch of Lauri's sugar bricks where she forgot to use a rolling pin to compress the bricks in the cookie sheet. They fell apart. The three batches where we compressed them with the rolling pin were perfect. Perfect, except we forgot to score one batch before they hardened and we could hardly break them into pieces.
I had some broken pieces in a box that were left over and I just dumped them out on a table about 200 yds from the hives and they were all over them in a matter of minutes. Off course there wasn't a flower bloom for 200 miles.


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## shinbone

The sugar bricks I used were pretty solid and were easy to handle without falling apart, including the ones that collapsed onto the clusters.

I am not saying that my sugar brick recipe doesn't have room for improvement, though.


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## WWW

Compression with a rolling pin, that's the part that I neglected to do and Lauri even provided a picture of the rolling pin, I need to look and read more carefully......Thanks TNTBEES


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## BlueRidgeBee

I tried them and loved it. Easy to slip in the hive and peace of mind for hives I was worried were too light. Only lost one of 7 and that was from queen failure discovered too late. I dried the sugar cakes with the oven door propped open - were hard as rocks! Great technique and I will use it every winter. THANK YOU!!!


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## WBVC

WWW said:


> Shinbone,
> I also had problems with the Louri bricks falling apart in the hive this past winter so I returned to the stove top method of candy making. I know it was probably just me not getting the method of manufacture right but I was in a tight spot and needed to get some feed on the nuc hives that same day so I went back to what I knew worked for me. I may try the LB bricks again in the future when I am not rushed.


I tried both methods and preferred the stove top result.


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## WBVC

Sorry..it posted twice


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## shinbone

What is the "stove top" method? And since I am dunce when it comes to making fondant/candy/bricks, please be painfully specific . . .


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## WWW

1 sugar brick

1 cup water
5 cups sugar

While constantly stiring heat the mixture on high until it starts to boil, then reduce heat to medium and cook at a slow rolling boil for 10 minuets. Remove from heat and immediately pour into a small bread pan coated with vegetable oil and let cool.


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## shinbone

Got it. Thanks.


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## Lauri

WWW said:


> 1 sugar brick
> 
> 1 cup water
> 5 cups sugar
> 
> While constantly stiring heat the mixture on high until it starts to boil, then reduce heat to medium and cook at a slow rolling boil for 10 minuets. Remove from heat and immediately pour into a small bread pan coated with vegetable oil and let cool.


Just so there is no confusion, this is not my recipe. If you are not going to add the vinegar, electrolytes, vitamins, acids and essential oils, you might as well just do the MT Camp method and save youself all the prep. work.

My recipe also is *NOT* cooked in any way. It is dried or dehydrated to form the hard block.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

Lauri said:


> Just so there is no confusion, this is not my recipe. If you are not going to add the vinegar, electrolytes, vitamins, acids and essential oils, you might as well just do the MT Camp method and save yourself all the prep. work


And if you do cook Lauri's recipe, just be aware that heat evaporates the essential oils. Don't know what it does to the probiotics in the electrolytes. It may damage them as well.

FWIW

Rusty


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## WWW

Lauri,
Yes I should have made it clear that this is a recipe which I concocted myself, and yes at one time I did try the Mountain Camp method and I found it cumbersome for various reasons, the brick is quicker and easier to install in cold windy weather and remains centralized on the cluster due to its smaller configuration. I never added the extra ingredients you suggest because of the possibility of heat damage as Rusty has already pointed out. My 2 nuc hives did quite well all winter on these bricks, I have split one of the nucs two times already and the main flow isn't here yet 

One of the beauties of your recipe is that additives can be mixed in with little to no damage to them and I salute you for the thought that has gone into your design.... :thumbsup:


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## sc-bee

Lauri- I have been searching for your stimulative feed recipe along with the supplement pollen sub recipe. In my warm climate I have no problem with syrup feed. I have not been able to nail it down. Can you point me in the right direction


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## Lauri

What I use and like is what I call a fortified syrup. 
Thin spring 1:1 recipe

12.5 # of cane sugar (1/2 of a 25 # sack of C&H)
about 3 gallons hot tap water
splash of cider vinegar about 2 T
1/2-1 tsp citric acid
1/4 tsp ascorbic acid
1/4 tsp electrolyte/vitamin mix
Mix in five gallon bucket with paint paddle and drill until clear.
Note: I don't really measure anything..just eye ball it. A pinch, sprinkle and a slosh.

Heres my source for acids:

http://www.amazon.com/Citric-Anhydr...r_1_1?s=grocery&ie=UTF8&qid=1399254980&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003EE5MZC/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i03?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## sc-bee

Thanks that was speedy


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## Brad Bee

Lauri, just curious but why do you use vinegar, and ascorbic acid, and citric acid in the syrup? I don't feed much but I do use apple cider vinegar to adjust the pH.


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## Lauri

Brad Bee said:


> Lauri, just curious but why do you use vinegar, and ascorbic acid, and citric acid in the syrup? I don't feed much but I do use apple cider vinegar to adjust the pH.


I don't use the cider vinegar simply as a acidifier, it has amino acids, electrolytes and other nutritional benifets. The ascorbic and citric acids are for vitamin additions and to invert the sugar.

Here is input from JW Chestnut explaining the chemical reaction:

A primary reason for acidifying syrup is to "invert" the sugar. Cane sugar is pure sucrose. Sucrose is a 12 carbon sugar made up of two loosely joined six carbon sub-molecules (fructose and glucose). The acid disassociates the sucrose into the component parts, mimicking the nectar. This is termed by kitchen chemists "invert" sugar, and was used for baking. Most nectars (not all) are slightly fructose rich. The pH of nectar varies widely too (and many nectars, not co evolved with honey bees, have large components of indigestible (by bees) seven and greater carbon sugars. Practically, the sucrose sugar syrup can be inverted with vinegar or any other edible acid, and very little hydrogen ion donors are needed on the order of tablespoon per gallon. Ascorbic acid is made up of glucose (6 C sugar ring) with 2 carbon "tail" and various OH groups tagged to balance the Carbon charge. Many animals and their gut flora can synthesize this from any 6 carbon sugar source. A good reason to use at least some ascorbic acid (or tartaric) in the place of some of the simpler acids is ascorbic is a ring structure, while acetic (vinegar) is a simple unbranched chain. The ring is stable and "recycles" Hydrogen OH groups from solution. This means it is continually recovering donor potential and a little bit can invert an enormous solution much like a catalyst in reaction. 

By using all three acids I am feeding a more diverse and possibly more complete mix.
It's the recipe I've used for 3 years
They like it and they do well. I have never fed Fumagillin and have never had case of Nosema.

Overwintered 133 colonies this year and came out with 128..but in _*acutality*_ I did not lose any colonies. I just lost a hand full of queens sometime early spring and caught the queenless colonies before they dwindled. They were combined with the overwintered queen in the mating nucs in February and March. 

Can I attribute my healthy colonies to any one thing? Management? Feeding and nutritional recipies? Genetics? Location? Lack of exposures to commercial crops and other commercial beekeepers? 
It's likely a combination of all of those things and other factors I haven't even realized. 
Every year that goes by, however, I do give more credit to my genetics. 

I've caught swarms near town that were likely from domestic hives and they have not done so well. 
They usually go to town for a short time, then fizzled out by the fall without treatments. They were managed exactly the same as my existing hives.
The lack of disease resistance and lack of vigor is is so obvious I usually requeen any collected swarms unless I get them from remote areas.


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## woodedareas

Lauri
Would a dehydrator work as a device to decrystallize honey jars (Glass) since the temperature cans be set and controlled? I am looking for something to recrystallize a volume of jars at one time.
Thanks


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## Lauri

The Cabaleas dehydrator is digetally controlled and very accurate. So accurate and controlable I am going to convert one into a incubator.

It would work great for gently warming honey already in jars. The wire racks, while stout, would have to be reinforced to hold that much weight though. A solid pan like I use for the bricks would help.


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## Thershey

Hi Lauri,
I'm a little south of you. Are you still feeding syrup? Thanks

Troy


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## Lauri

Thershey said:


> Hi Lauri,
> I'm a little south of you. Are you still feeding syrup? Thanks
> 
> Troy


Generally the only hives I feed syrup to in spring are newly made nucs, overwintered nucs if they need to get a kick start early spring and simulated swarms (Or collected swarms)
Basically when I break up a large overwintered hive with a 2012 queen.

I have a lot of hives in one area so I expect to feed some colonies on occasion. ALmost time to distribute hives to other yards. My flow should start here in about 2 weeks. Maybe less this year. I'll have to go check the blackberry buds.

New nucs get fed until established:









Simulated swarms get fed, but generally won't take up much since they have a lot of foragers:










Starter and finisher colonies for rearing queens get fed:










Any colony that doesn't have enough foragers to gather feed naturally or colonies I an askign to draw out new frames without a flow get fed.










Hive below was an overwintered 3 over 5 frame nuc...Fed to get more frames drawn and good population of bees. Peaking right about time for the flow.


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## Bob J

Lauri, how do you like your frame feeders?


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## toekneepea

Lauri,

With your sugar blocks, how do you deal with the bees' burr comb attaching to the meshed inner cover? Scrape/melt with a propane torch? Don't have that many issues?

Thanks,
Tony P.

ps - I'm in the Northeast, and would love to try the Spar Urethane / Stain look on my hives, how has the coating held up for you compared to paint? Have you had to sand down and reapply often?


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## Lauri

Bob J said:


> Lauri, how do you like your frame feeders?


I love them. They go into a nuc when I make them up and stay there all year..empty most of the time. I just move them up when I add a second box and they are installed already anytime I may need to feed. They stay in all winter too taking up space If I don't have any drawn frames to replace them with. No messes but I've found large bunches of bees overwintering in there when hive populations are very high. I was surprised with I removed them this spring and dumped out a bunch of bees. No real comb building issues at all. The tiny bit of comb they build I just leave. Adds to the ladder effect.

I use top feeders, frame feeders and inverted mason jars. WIth all three I can feed effeciently for all hive configurations. Sometimes a hive needs fall feed, but has no room to install a frame feeder. Then I use a top feeder. I use clear silicone to form a gasket at the bottom of the screen or you get bees sneaking through and they drown.

A quart of syrup on a hungry large hive during an extended period of dearth is a total waste of time. I use these top feeders and give them 3 or 4 gallons all at once. They take it up quickly and get to rearing lots of young bees for overwintering. It's amazing how fast they can produce frame after frame ofter frame of new brood with one good feeding, if the queen has shut down because of lack of flow. 










If you need to clean out the screen just pull it out of the grove. Silicone will stay on the screen and you just pop it back into place after cleaning













Smaller mating nucs use inverted mason jar.










If it's raining or fall robbing is likely, I just invert a coffee can or pot over the jat to protect it.


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## Thershey

Thank you for the detailed response, very useful information.


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## Noel Leahy

hi 25# sugarcane the hash is lbs ?


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## shinbone

Yes, "#" equals "lbs."


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## threepingsthree

In the original post there is a picture of a dehydrator I think. What brand / model is it?


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## Rader Sidetrack

threepingsthree said:


> In the original post there is a picture of a dehydrator I think. What brand / model is it?


In Lauri's post #171 she mentions using a _Cabelas _dehydrator.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ks&p=1101348&highlight=dehydrator#post1101348


I think you will find it here: http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/search_catalog_command.cmd?fromProductSearch=true&item1=IK-515819


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## WBVC

Lauri...which make/model of dehydrator are using for your sugar blocks? Is the same as the Cabelas one you mention...it looked different in the photos.

Thanks


----------



## Lauri

Yes Janne, it is the Cabelas dehydrator. They come in black now but otherwise are the same commercial type. 
I did get your message by the way. I've just got not time to be on the computer much..too busy right now. I'll get back to you ASAP, but it will be a while.


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## WBVC

Lauri said:


> Yes Janne, it is the Cabelas dehydrator. They come in black now but otherwise are the same commercial type.
> I did get your message by the way. I've just got not time to be on the computer much..too busy right now. I'll get back to you ASAP, but it will be a while.


Thanks Lauri...no rush my old dehydrated simply doesn't cut it with racks of moist sugar...but not certain where I would stash one the size of yours especially when it is a once a year deal for me as I don't dry out veggies etc very often.


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## rweaver7777

I looked but didn't see an answer to this. I have kept some blocks frozen that weren't used last year. Is there any downside to using them? I mixed in the Megabee into the blocks... THanks Rick


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## Vance G

Those blocks are pretty well two saturated a sugar to be successfully infected by anything. They would be perfectly safe if you hadn't frozen them. Please bring them up to room temperature before putting them on your bees.


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## maudbid

Dup


----------



## maudbid

I just attempted to make my first block this way. I put it into the oven to dry, apparently the lowest setting was too hot, the sugar melted into this block that looks like firm honey. Is this ok to give to the bees? It is firm, although I can slowly deform it. It tastes great though.


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## enjambres

@Maudbid,

No! Do not give the melted sugar to your bees if it has turned brown or even tan. It has carmelized and would now be harmful to them, the same way that carmelized sugar syrup can be harmful.

OTOH, if you don't have a lot of other ingredients in it, it's well on its way to being a caramel syrup for your banana split or your creme brulee.

Enj.


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## maudbid

It is not brown or tan, it is the nice golden color of 2:1 syrup. My gut is telling me it is not worth the chance, your advice confirms it.

It is really great tasting, he apple cider vinegar and citric acid have given it a lemony flavor. With the vitamins and electrolytes it would make a healthy desert.


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## Lauri

maudbid said:


> I just attempted to make my first block this way. I put it into the oven to dry, apparently the lowest setting was too hot, the sugar melted into this block that looks like firm honey. Is this ok to give to the bees? It is firm, although I can slowly deform it. It tastes great though.


What temp did you attempt to dry it on? The raw mix is somewhat golden because of the addition of the cider vinegar & elctrolytes. They cook/boil the heck out of sugar mix's to make fondant,etc. Heated sugar is not the same as overheated honey. I doubt you actually _caramelized_ your sugar on a low oven setting. 
But if you think it_ has_ been caramelized, don't use it.

My concern would be the gooy mix would oose down between your frames eventually. You would probably be better off turning it into syrup and starting over.

There is a fine line with the liquid..a little too much and you can get goo, too little and the brick won't solidify and will stay crumbly. If you cook it, it will not turn out the same as the OP.

The beauty of these blocks, when done right and they have the proper texture and solidification, is that they are so easy to handle out in the field..to slip in here or there on hives that may need them (as long as you already have a feeding rim in place). Especially when weather is bad. 

They are quick to make, but they do take drying time. You have to think ahead for your winter needs. 

Heres a photo of a brick I just made that was just air dried. I can't use my dehydrator yet, because me bees are still active and my dehydrator is in my greenhouse. They try to get in there when they smell that mix and it is a death trap.
If you compare the block to the white insulation between the hives you'll see it is a yellowish color.




















The mating nuc shown above is an on going experiment. 
This mating nuc was a triple challenge. Laying workers, old virgin & very late summer mating.
And now for a fourth challenge, it has no stores going into winter.

It had previously developed laying workers and the comb was quite ugly. I installed a 12 day old virgin queen August 28th, closed them up and let them have at it. (The old virgin was intentional to see just how old they could be and still get mated)

They actually did very well for a while. The queen was mated well even though she was older and it was so late in summer. The bees repaired the comb that has been ruined by the laying workers. They reared a good crop of worker brood.

But, and of course it makes sense, when the older bees died off the younger bees were left, they had no forager force to bring in feed. (Those older bees were REALLY old, because they had been queenless long enough to develop laying workers)
This small colony (Has a decent population but is all sucked down from the cool air exposure) They are healthy and young, but they have almost no stores. Hive is light as a feather.

I could distribute the frames & bees to other nucs, but it is a good chance to see just how good these fortified sugar blocks really are. 
I gave them a block, as you can see here and closed them up for winter. I'll recheck them in a couple weeks and replace the block if needed. (Since they are so low on stores, It's possible they'll go through the first block in record time)

If I offered syrup now at the end of October, they may or may not take it. Nigh time Temps forecast to be in the 30's soon. But for the sake of the experiment I will only give them the block.
I will shake some dry BeePro on top the block however-since the weather is mild and there IS still time for them to take up a bit more protein-just to feed that bit of brood they currently have. NO protein during winter, unless our weather is really wacky and they are activly rearing brood. I just wasn't prepared with the beepro when I took this photo.
That will be the extent of the supplimental feeding.


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## NewbeeInNH

I like sugar blocks. They're easy.

This winter I'm putting a single medium hive (basically a nuc - started in August) over an existing hive using a double screen board. Has anyone had any trouble checking on or putting sugar blocks in a hive that's under a nuc/single? Maybe you just swing that single right off the top. I don't know how easy it is to tip it and slide a sugar block into the top of the underneath hive.


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## allniter

LAURI --do the bees use the sugar block for adding store or just for eating


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## laketrout

I see in some of Lauri's pics there is a screen on top of the feeding shim and was wondering why , is it so bee's can't fly up when checking the sugar bricks or is there another reason .


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## Rusty Hills Farm

laketrout said:


> I see in some of Lauri's pics there is a screen on top of the feeding shim and was wondering why , is it so bee's can't fly up when checking the sugar bricks or is there another reason .


Personally I use these as inner covers. I like being able to check on the hive without really disturbing the bees. When I feed syrup, I just sit the jar on the screen. I do the same with a water jar in summer so they don't have to go hunting for a water source. But I'm in Alabama, so a screened inner cover works here without helping the SHBs. Solid inner covers just give them one more place to hide.

HTH

Rusty


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## laketrout

Rusty do you use a quilt box .


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## laketrout

Lauri mentioned in one of the posts here not to feed any solids in cold climates and I believe she was referring to pollen substitutes as the bee's can't get out for cleansing flights . Can cider vinegar in any way hurt the bee's that can't get out on a regular basis or can they handle it in the colder climates .


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## WesternWilson

FWIW, I like the screened inner covers for three reasons!

1. holds the floor of the quilt box off the supers so the bees cannot propolize the floor (which in my case is burlap) or the quilt box seams themselves...no prying apart cold boxes in the cold weather, the quilt box slides off easily.

2. can check the bees quickly without worrying about guards flying out and either stinging me or getting lost in the cold

3. creates a small clear space in which to place the feed block/sugar

The bees will come up and feed on the sugar block/sugar on any day that is even close to mild. They can migrate up the centre of the hive in the warm column of air rising off the cluster. I don't think they store that sugar as honey, but since they don't tell me what they are doing.... : )


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## camero7

laketrout said:


> Lauri mentioned in one of the posts here not to feed any solids in cold climates and I believe she was referring to pollen substitutes as the bee's can't get out for cleansing flights . Can cider vinegar in any way hurt the bee's that can't get out on a regular basis or can they handle it in the colder climates .


I've been using it for a couple of years in my candy boards and now in my sugar blocks. I don't see any dysentery during the winter or before the first cleansing flights. Since there are no solids in it I don't see how it would hurt. It does invert the sugar which I feel is a good thing.


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## laketrout

From what I can tell its a feed rim with screen on the top correct , like the pic in post # 140 .

Thanks cam , I'll through some in the next batch .I have a recipe with 10 1/2 oz vinegar to 8 1/2 pds. of sugar , which I believe is Lauri's recipe cut down to a 1/3 , other candy recipes call for a lot less vinegar . Does the 10 1/2 oz to 8 1/2 pds. sound right .


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## WesternWilson

laketrout, the other thing I would consider putting in the recipe is some electrolyte/vitamin granules (you find them in the horse supply section in small foil envelopes). In reading around on the topic of how sugar syrup feeding compares to honey feeding or nectar feeding, the general thought seems to be that honey and nectar are better food for bees due to their micronutrient profile, although research to clear up just what micronutrients are involved is ongoing.

It may be the placebo effect (irrelevant things that make the _beekeeper_ feel better), but I like adding a small pinch of the electrolyte/vitamin granules.


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## Tjsegla

I made the sugar blocks according to the recipe minus the essential oils. I did not add those because I wasn't sure how much. I was afraid I would add to much or not enough to have any impact. I am also not sure which essential oils to use. There are so many different opinions it makes my head spin. Maybe I am overthinking the essential oils. I expected my bees to bee all over the sugar blocks and when I checked today the only thing in there was a yellow jacket. The good news is the bees are still flying.


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## Lauri

Remember that little mating nuc that had no stores? (Refer to Post 191)
Here is the consumption rate for that sugar block-set 10-27-14. 
14 days.
Usually a colony like this (With decent stores) will consume a block this size over the course of 60-80 days. I generally put blocks on twice in the course of the winter.
I got 8 blocks this size from a full batch of my block recipe..using 25# of sugar, one quart cider vinegar and other nutrients.
That would make a block this size equivalent to about 1/2 gallon of 2:1 . If I remember right, a half gallon of 2:1 will fill a standard deep frame both sides if it is already drawn. (If it is not being directly consumed)
Although they would probably still take up syrup, I am doing this as an experiment to see how well the blocks work in extreme conditions. They WILL take up the block even when outside temps are very cold. 
In fact, because it's likely they need condensation/moisture to successfully consume the block, it's possible, the colder the better. (to a point, of course)


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## DrewInToledo

Hi everyone! 
I made some bee cakes using the recipe. I used a 4# bag of sugar and 1/3 cup of apple cider vinegar. I dried for about 1.5 hours in oven at 170°. I did not add any chemicals, bee heroin, or additives.
The cakes came out like bricks. What you see are bits of a large cardboard tube cut off which I pounded the mixture into with a rubber mallet.
I have no room to put these under my inner cover so I made a "spacer" to put on top of the top super to hold the sugar. I drilled a few 7/16" holes in the sides to allow ventilation. Can someone tell me how many holes are recommended? Too little and no ventilation, too many, and too cold, right?


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## dsegrest

DrewInToledo said:


> Hi everyone!
> I made some bee cakes using the recipe. I used a 4# bag of sugar and 1/3 cup of apple cider vinegar. I dried for about 1.5 hours in oven at 170°. I did not add any chemicals, be heroin, or additives.
> The cakes came out like bricks. What you see are bits of a large cardboard tube cut off which I pounded the mixture into with a rubber mallet.
> I have no room to put these under my inner cover so I made a "spacer" to put on top of the top super to hold the sugar. I drilled a few 7/16" holes in the sides to allow ventilation. Can someone tell me how many holes are recommended? Too little and no ventilation, too many, and too cold, right?
> 
> View attachment 14514


I don't think you need to put holes in the spacer. Just put your regular inner cover and the TTC.

How did you cut the tube with the sugar in it. If you used your chop saw would it ruin the blade?


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## DrewInToledo

I cut the tubes first to create the forms to pound the sugar into. You'll see the empty forms on the left of the top photo.
The blade didn't have a problem cutting the cardboard. The diameter is too large for a single pass, so I had to stop, rotate, cut, repeat. I estimate the tube diameter around 9".


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## mgolden

<I have no room to put these under my inner cover so I made a "spacer" to put on top of the top super to hold the sugar. I drilled a few 7/16" holes in the sides to allow ventilation. Can someone tell me how many holes are recommended? Too little and no ventilation, too many, and too cold, right?>

Think you will have excessive ventilation going on. Personally, I have a single 3/4 round hole in front side of spacer/feeder and then install my inner cover with notch up. Ventilation is air entering 3/8 x 1 bottom entrance and exhausting through 3/4 hole and notch. My belief is that 3/4 hole and notch will provide back up ventialtin should bottom get blocked by dead bees or snow. I also have a quilt box above inner cover.

Here's a pic I took yesterday. It's abnormally cold for this time of year at 4F this morning.


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## drlonzo

Lauri - Just wanted to let you know that I used your recipe for the sugar blocks. Whipped up 50# over the last couple days. I used the Kitchen Aid Mixer to do my dirty work. lol. Got a great consistent product though. Used the oven and pans that were 1" deep. Set the oven at 170 deg and it takes about 2 hours to completely dehydrate. Put them on the hives yesterday and watched the bees come straight to them. Going to take a peek each week and see how they are doing with them. 

Thanks for sharing your recipe! BTW... How's that colony doing with NO stores doing with these now?


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## WesternWilson

I would not drill holes in the spacer, and I would consider the use of a quilt box above the spacer.

I make my quilt boxes out of empty supers, mediums are fine. I staple a burlap or screen floor onto the super, drill one or two vent holes in the upper ends, and screen the vent holes. Then I fill the box with white wood chips ie. guinea pig bedding. This box goes over the screened inner cover and under the wood inner cover (you don't really need that wood inner cover, but on top of the quilt box and under the outer cover is a good place to store it!).

The quilt box lifts off easily if you have a screened inner cover under it as the bees cannot reach the seam to propolize. You can take a quick easy peek to see how the bees are working the sugar brick/fondant.


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## Lauri

drlonzo said:


> How's that colony doing with NO stores doing with these now?












Photo above shows that mating nuc with the sugar block getting a sprinkle of dry beepro. Some of it filters down onto the bees, but they groom, store and tidy up quickly. Although it looks like half the sugar block is gone , it is more like 2/3 has been consumed, as the half you see is quite thin now. I'll be giving them a second block in about a week, if the temps allow me to get into the nuc for a minute or two. I won't get into it frame per frame, but will check the weight. 

I salvaged this old stainless unit years ago when they were doing demo at the mess hall at JBLM. 
Unfortunatly, they have recently changed the size of the big aluminum pans and the new ones are too big The new pans are 1/2" wider.
Here you see the few old pans I have that do fit. Filled with the sugar block mixture. 
I was planning to fill this unit with sugar filled pans for drying and organized storage for wintertime use. I guess I'll have to figure something else out. If looking on Craigs list for old pans doesn't pann out, Probably lay a couple 1x2's across for support and use the next size smaller pan.

I also had this old hot plate from the second hand store. After cleaning it and making sure it wouldn't catch fire, I'll set it on low and increase the set time since I am behind in the brick making dept. Like most people around the country, my temps are quite cold now and the bees have finally stopped flying long enough to get the bricks made withut them trying to get into my greenhouse.

I use to use this hot plate and stainless unit as a smoker, as you can probably see by the smoke stains on the stainless. It worked great!
I've had this unit for about 20 years, it's probably at least 50 years old. I love salvaging old stuff. Made in the USA. It all has a history. And a military history at that. This unit kept meals warm for hungry & tired military personel over the years. It's a small piece of my local history.










I also have two pans just sitting out in the greenhouse to dry. I'l let you know how much faster the gently heated ones dry and if it was worth the effort and electricity to do it that way.

In the photo below, the pan on the left was made an hour ago, the pan on the right was just made. You can see how the left pan has already soaked into the dry beepro. It forms a light crust the bees can ether consume or discard depending on their needs. In my area, I do find the bees appear to consume the protien. I see a difference between colonies that had a plain block in comparison. But my bees generally can get out for cleansing flights at least every couple weeks with only a few longer term tighter clustering conditions.



















Since I am on time and thorough with late summer/fall feeding, the only hives these bricks go onto are single deeps, most of which are nucs. I'd liketo put them on all the hives since they like them so much, but with so many hives now that would be tough to manage.


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## WBVC

Don't know if you have tried this or not but i cut 1/2" angle iron the width of the dehydrator. It sits well on the front of the brackets and holds a rack of sugar pans. Just one piece in front seems to do the trick but you could also put one across the back if worried.


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## WBVC

Mann Lake seems to have various dry protein products. How did you come to choose Bee Pro over the others?



Lauri said:


> Photo above shows that mating nuc with the sugar block getting a sprinkle of dry beepro. Some of it filters down onto the bees, but they groom, store and tidy up quickly. Although it looks like half the sugar block is gone , it is more like 2/3 has been consumed, as the half you see is quite thin now. I'll be giving them a second block in about a week, if the temps allow me to get into the nuc for a minute or two. I won't get into it frame per frame, but will check the weight.
> 
> I salvaged this old stainless unit years ago when they were doing demo at the mess hall at JBLM.
> Unfortunatly, they have recently changed the size of the big aluminum pans and the new ones are too big The new pans are 1/2" wider.
> Here you see the few old pans I have that do fit. Filled with the sugar block mixture.
> I was planning to fill this unit with sugar filled pans for drying and organized storage for wintertime use. I guess I'll have to figure something else out. If looking on Craigs list for old pans doesn't pann out, Probably lay a couple 1x2's across for support and use the next size smaller pan.
> 
> I also had this old hot plate from the second hand store. After cleaning it and making sure it wouldn't catch fire, I'll set it on low and increase the set time since I am behind in the brick making dept. Like most people around the country, my temps are quite cold now and the bees have finally stopped flying long enough to get the bricks made withut them trying to get into my greenhouse.
> 
> I use to use this hot plate and stainless unit as a smoker, as you can probably see by the smoke stains on the stainless. It worked great!
> I've had this unit for about 20 years, it's probably at least 50 years old. I love salvaging old stuff. Made in the USA. It all has a history. And a military history at that. This unit kept meals warm for hungry & tired military personel over the years. It's a small piece of my local history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also have two pans just sitting out in the greenhouse to dry. I'l let you know how much faster the gently heated ones dry and if it was worth the effort and electricity to do it that way.
> 
> In the photo below, the pan on the left was made an hour ago, the pan on the right was just made. You can see how the left pan has already soaked into the dry beepro. It forms a light crust the bees can ether consume or discard depending on their needs. In my area, I do find the bees appear to consume the protien. I see a difference between colonies that had a plain block in comparison. But my bees generally can get out for cleansing flights at least every couple weeks with only a few longer term tighter clustering conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since I am on time and thorough with late summer/fall feeding, the only hives these bricks go onto are single deeps, most of which are nucs. I'd liketo put them on all the hives since they like them so much, but with so many hives now that would be tough to manage.


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## Juhani Lunden

I really don´t get the idea of these cakes. Why not feed them full with syrup in autumn? Cheaper, less work.


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## drlonzo

Juhani Lunden said:


> I really don´t get the idea of these cakes. Why not feed them full with syrup in autumn? Cheaper, less work.


Feeding them in autumn is the normal plan for most all beekeepers, if the hives are light. The idea behind the sugar bricks is simply to give the bees a little extra in case they need it. Sort of an insurance plan. Sometimes even with the most well thought out plan to make sure the bees are ready for the winter some don't do as we like. For those instead of letting them starve, we choose to give them the sugar blocks to get them by. Or at least that's why I do it.


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## mbc

Juhani Lunden said:


> I really don´t get the idea of these cakes. Why not feed them full with syrup in autumn? Cheaper, less work.





drlonzo said:


> Feeding them in autumn is the normal plan for most all beekeepers, if the hives are light. The idea behind the sugar bricks is simply to give the bees a little extra in case they need it. Sort of an insurance plan. Sometimes even with the most well thought out plan to make sure the bees are ready for the winter some don't do as we like. For those instead of letting them starve, we choose to give them the sugar blocks to get them by. Or at least that's why I do it.


Good question and an excellent response. Top work.


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## Lauri

Juhani Lunden said:


> I really don´t get the idea of these cakes. Why not feed them full with syrup in autumn? Cheaper, less work.


I do feed in late summer & fall. I'd say 95 % of my hives are more than well prepared for winter.

But there are always some hives/nucs that won't quite take up enough feed to put on weight. Many times they are the ones with late mated queens in nucs that are still rearing a lot of brood and the drawn combs are already filled with ether brood or feed. There's just no place for them to put more feed and they are not interested in drawing new frames when days get short.
I also feed a surprising amount of wet protein (Patties) which are consumed, not stored in that situation. (Brood to feed)
These frames in the center, in the photo below, are all filled, mostly with brood. You can see the papper from patties they've taken up. Although they've been fed syrup, they will only take up so much. There's no way early/late fall to get more weight on them. I've already combined all I want to. WIth a sugar block on top the frames, they overwinter just fine. Otherwise they would likely perrish.




















I also give my singles (With no feed above the cluster) a block. Even if they are quite heavy, They have easy access to the block and come out of winter in fantastic shape. In fact, it is probably _Because_ I feed late summer to get a good population of young bees for overwintering that these singles need a block. 

If I didn't feed syrup to stimulate late summer/fall brood, these single would have a smaller population of mixed age bees, and if left with only their own stores _might_ limp along until next spring. They certainly wouldn't come out of winter with the strength I get with my feeding program. Come February/March, the hive below will be black with bees.



















I leave my feeders in the hive all winter-empty of course. Convenient to have already in place for feeding in the future. I don't have any deadouts to take drawn filled frames from to replace the feeders so they get left in. What I generally do with these is take out the queen and 5 frames in spring and leave the rest with the feeder with a new virgin or capped cell. Then they will use the feeder.










Whoops 
Even this single will get a brick. This comb was 2/3 full of feed so I just left it. I'll give them a sugar block overwinter and let them live on the mess 
Definitely have to give them a bit of a scrape come spring.




















Syrup is cheaper? How so? Sugar is sugar. All other ingredients are the same as I use in syrup. A little more vinegar, no water, a few drops of essential oils doesn't drive up the cost more than a few cents.. The work is no big deal. After months of 14 hour work days sweating in my bee suit, I have the luxury of making blocks at my leisure, without my beesuit and without being mauled by hungry bees or yellow jackets. One block generally lasts a colony for a couple months. I don't know about less work. I got up way too early before the sun comes up to mix up late summer/ fall syrup and I spend a lot of time distributing it to the hives.


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## laketrout

Here is a vitamin and electrolyte supplement I found at tractor supply Co., was wondering if anyone has used it and if its suitable for the girls . If its the right stuff does everyone agree its ok for use in cold climates through the winter with no chance of cleansing flights .

http://www.durvet.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=99:vitamins-and-electrolytes


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## laketrout

Edit for duplicate posting


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## jwcarlson

I mixed up 16 pounds of these tonight with Heinz real apple cider vinegar with mother (not flavored). Put them in our oven at 170 and what followed nearly cost me marriage. Ok, not that bad, but my wife was NOT happy. They were in for about an hour or so, two of the three pans were pretty wite and firm to the touch, the other was quite wet yet when she finally made me get them out of the house. So they are in the garage now witb a fan on them and the wet one already looks much drier. It will be 13 degrees here tonight... hopefully no ill effects. They are in the garage so, it should stay above freezing. Luckily we have pretty dry winters so they should dry up well.


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## drlonzo

jw - I forgot to mention the aroma didn't I. Sorry! It does put of a very loud aroma while it's in the oven. My wife is very understanding, she and the kids went to grandma's while I was doing ours. When they got back, house smelled like vinegar but went away pretty quickly. lol.. Bees were very happy though!


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## beepro

My attic is a hot spot thru out most of the year without being use.
During a sunny day the temp. can exceed 115F. At one time the glass fish thermometer with
a mercury indicator got cracked in a hot summer when I left it there. Maybe the wifey will not smell
the vinegar if you dry your stuffs inside. Yeah, the fresh mushrooms will dry in one day there. Maybe to
make the cakes a few days in advance to try.
Going to try a few bricks this winter also. Got 20 lbs of the chickpeas very high in protein (22g) fine flour along with the megabee pollen sub.
BTW, does anyone knows a way to roast or cook the flour before mixing in with the pollen sub? Also, it is o.k. to put the finished quarter inch pollen sub under these
sugar bricks?


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## Mary Beth Reid

laketrout: I used the the same vit/electrolyte you reference because that is what I could get. This is my first batch of the bricks so am hoping they are ok. From looking at the ingredient list of both, the Durvet is very similar to the AgriLabs brand that Lauri uses in her recipe, only it has a bit less of some of the vit/electrolytes and it does not have probiotics. Would love to hear if others have used it and how it worked for them. My bees seem to love the bricks.


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## NewbeeInNH

I made 15 lbs. of sugar, 1 1/2 cups of organic apple cider vinegar as per someone's reduction in the recipe above and it turned out great. I heated the oven to 150F (turned it to 170F and let it cool a minute), turned it back off, and put them in for a couple hours (in 2 batches). My daughter was complaining about the smell when she came home from school, but I didn't really think it was THAT bad. At least ACV is a health food, it's not like paint fumes.

Last winter I made sugar blocks with just water, no ACV, and the fronts of the hives were brown streaked. This winter, with only vinegar and not water, I'm hoping it works for them better. Can't wait to get it out there, especially since our polar snap has just arrived. It's time to winter!


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## camero7

I have Lauri's blocks on 1/2 my nucs and fondant on the others. So far the bees are consuming the sugar blocks at a higher rate. They are also hauling out some sugar crystals. Not enough to worry about but nothing coming out of the fondant hives. I'll continue to report on the differences as they show up


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## jwcarlson

The main reason for smell issues is that my wife is 20 weeks pregnant and can smell things our beagle can't (I swear).


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## jwcarlson

To finish out my sugar brick experience... two hours at 170 was no where near enough to dehydrate my bricks. It got about 1/3 of one cookie sheet dry, the rest of them were relatively wet and crumbled. One seemed more wet than when I mixed it. So I have four nice pieces and a whole bunch of crumbles. Total they were in the oven at 170 for about 3.5 hours. One is still in it. I only mixed up 2/3 of a batch and I still have 12 ounces of ACV left so it's not like I used too much liquid.

The chunks will obviously work, especially in my top bars where I don't have to worry about small pieces falling between frames.


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## WesternWilson

I am thinking this may be an alternative to the smaller packets of electrolytes and vitamins??

Rooster Booster


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## NewbeeInNH

jwcarlson said:


> The main reason for smell issues is that my wife is 20 weeks pregnant and can smell things our beagle can't (I swear).


Ooh! A little bee in the cell!


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## jwcarlson

NewbeeInNH said:


> Ooh! A little bee in the cell!


Haha, yes, number two!


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## jwcarlson

To finish out my sugar brick experience... two hours at 170 was no where near enough to dehydrate my bricks. It got about 1/3 of one cookie sheet dry, the rest of them were relatively wet and crumbled. One seemed more wet than when I mixed it. So I have four nice pieces and a whole bunch of crumbles. Total they were in the oven at 170 for about 3.5 hours. One is still in it. I only mixed up 2/3 of a batch and I still have 12 ounces of ACV left so it's not like I used too much liquid.

The chunks will obviously work, especially in my top bars where I don't have to worry about small pieces falling between frames.


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## camero7

Maybe too much of the HBH? I got a little heavy handed pouring some in the bucket and the blocks didn't dry well. I learned to use just a bit and the blocks are solid and dry quickly. I also use just a little of the vinegar. sugar almost seems dry when you put it in the pan but comes out nice.


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## WesternWilson

I too tried the sugar blocks method...using my stand mixer to ensure the vinegar was well mixed into the sugar. If your blocks are not drying well, then there was too much liquid to start with. My blocks dried right away in an oven that had been warmed to 200F then turned off when I put the tray of sugar mix in.

I have to say, I do prefer the cooked sugar brick recipe, where you simmer sugar in some water and vinegar to 136F, beat in a stand mixer until it starts to cloud and go white, adding a splash of HbH and electolytes/vitamins at that point and before pouring the mix into wax paper lined molds. You get a slightly fudgy but reasonably smooth product that is less crumbly than the baked sugar mix, and my suspicion is that the bees feed on it better.


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## enjambres

I think there may be a difference between Lauri's recipe bricks dried in an oven, at higher temps and for a shorter time and those dried in the longer-process of a proper dehydrator. I happen to use a dehydrator and my bricks take at least eight to ten hours to dry and they are rock hard and not crumbly at all when done. Once I was presssed for time to finish new ones and get them in the hive during a short mild temperature window and while they looked done, they wound up being more crumbly and when you looked at them on the side you could still see some color stratification within the brick. I have also learned to not make them too thick, as they seem to dry less well.

WesternWilson, would you mind posting your cooked sugar brick recipe? I would like to try it as an alternative.

Enj.


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## WesternWilson

Happy to! Sorry the spacing does not work out nicely once posted...I used Lauri's ingredients, and adapted a recipe from somewhere online http://www.motherearthnews.com/home...eding-bees-winter-zbcz1311.aspx#axzz3J9Zyicvt

http://www.ccbee.org/beefeed.htm

http://www.cornwallhoney.co.uk/beepedia/sugarsyrup.htm

Note the hot sugar syrup is really dangerous. Be very careful and wear good oven mitts. I like the silicone ones with nice padding.

Sugar Bricks.........................large batch..................1/2 batch................1/4 batch (or you can try 1 c. liquid to 1 lb. of sugar)

sugar.....................................25 lb...........................12.5 lb.....................6 lb

real cider vinegar......................1 quart........................2 cups................... 1 cup

water......................................3 quarts.......................6 cups....................3 cups

citric acid.................................2 tablespoons...............4 teaspoons.............2 teaspoons

vitamin/electrolyte granules (opt)..4 pinches..................2 pinches.................1 pinch

feeding aid, just a splash ie. honey b healthy or equivalent (optional)
gob of clean honey (optional)

Protein based bee feed powder (optional)


-bring cider vinegar and water to a simmer
-add sugar, stir constantly till you get it to boil...lower heat once it begins to boil so you don't have it foam up and boil over!
-simmer till you get to about 235F on your candy thermometer/digital probe (if mixture sets too fudgy and soft, heat up a couple more degrees next time)
(note: I am lazy so I just bring the mixture to a boil, let it simmer for a couple of minutes and that seems to work pretty well)
-remove from heat and let cool a bit
-being VERY CAREFUL, pour syrup into stand mixer and beat with all metal wire whip until syrup starts to get white and cloudy
-when temp falls to about 90 degrees F, beat in your citric acid and vitamin/electrolyte granules, dissolved in a bit of water or vinegar
-at this point you can add your flavouring agent ie. HbH or equivalent, and some of your own clean honey...both are optional.
-pour into wax paper lined molds ie. cake pans, loaf pans, whatever, aim for about 1" thick
-if you like dust some protein based bee feed powder ie. beepro or home mix for protein patties on top of brick, optional
-let cool, turn out and put on top of top bars over cluster, protein side up. If you place a screened inner cover over the sugar brick and under the quilt box, you can check easily to see if bees are feeding, on any sunny day.

NOTE: You can buy winter fondant patties from bee companies and take a pass on the kitchen mess!


----------



## jwcarlson

camero7 said:


> Maybe too much of the HBH? I got a little heavy handed pouring some in the bucket and the blocks didn't dry well. I learned to use just a bit and the blocks are solid and dry quickly. I also use just a little of the vinegar. sugar almost seems dry when you put it in the pan but comes out nice.


Did not put any HBO or any liquid other than ACV. I am starting to wonder if I shorted the sugar in the second one bucket I mixed. My almost two year old daughter was helping so I was a bit distracted. Two pans were OK the third has been in the oven for over five hours. Still soupy, but did not seem any worse than the others. I am probably going to scrape into bucket and mix in more sugar.


----------



## WBVC

I made up basic sugar bricks this year...5 kg sugar, 2 cups apple cider vinegar or water ...into aluminum pan 1.5" deep...into dehydrator at 130 degrees...dry like a sugar cube in 23 hours...able to use after 12 hours and likely sooner in a pinch.


----------



## Lauri

Just to address some comments:

If you are uncomfortable using pure vinegar for liquid, just substitute some of the vinegar with water. But you may not get the same results I do. I use to make mine with half ACV and water and wanted to see just how far I could push the recipe. When I made them with pure ACV, the bees responded with extra enthusuasm and vigor. I was sold.

The effectiveness & saftey of vinegar has been discussed in this and other threads. This recipe in the OP just is what I use -and I get excellent results with my overwintering success. I still have never had a single case of dysentery. I still have never treated with fumagillin. 

Some will say this is all just a Placebo effect. But when I place a block on a colony, I see an immediate response & long term effects. I certainly wouldn't take the effort to do something that was a waste of time. I've got plenty of other work to do.

I settled on this recipe after a couple years of trials. Adding this and that unitl I came up with a recipe I felt had the right amount of nutrients without being too strong. I was more concerned with overdosing the electrolyte mixture than anything. (A package will make 220 gallons of diluted livestock water) By observing the reaction of the colonies during and after they had their brick, I based my recipe on what I felt were positive results.

This brick IS a concentrated formula. A decent sized brick is equivalent to about 1/2 gallon of 2:1 syrup..without the water. It takes them about 2 months to take it up-unless they had no stores of their own. That is such a slow rate, the concentrated mix appears to be just perfect for a _slow release _feed source.

For those that have more experience with plants than bees, think about your slow release fertlizers..if released immediatly they would likely burn the plant or stimulate rapid growth. But when released over a period of 2-3 months, they have just the right strength for _nutritional maintenance_.

As far as the smell of the blocks drying: 
I do mine in my greenhouse so the aroma is not an issue because I don't do mine in the house  That aroma however, is probably one of the reasons the bees like them so much. 

I have never had a robbing issue with blocks. By late October, my hives are all settled in for winter. Even with sunny daytime flying, there are no summertime/fall behavior like robbing. Most of my blocks are on my smaller colonies, which would be vulnerable to robbing if it _was_ an issue. In my yard with my strain of bees, it is not.

This set up (below) worked really well this year. An old salvaged stainless unit with a small hot plate.
Set on low for a couple days, they dried perfectly.










New pans are made slightly larger than the old pans, so they had to be tipped slightly to get them in. But I let them sit on a flat surface for a couple days to allow liquid to absorb fully into the sugar before placing at an angle.

I still use my dehydrators, but need more bricks these days.










I'm not saying anyone has to feed bricks or make them like I do. All I know is how they work for me, they are fast and easy to make, compared to other cooked methods, they are fortified, unlike straight dry sugar winter feeding methods. They need to be made up ahead of time, but are easy to store, handle and quickly slip into hives when weather is bad.

They are not meant to be a replacement for fall feeding and good management, but if circumstances leave you with a colony that is in need, they work in a pinch.
Even colonies that are well prepared for winter love them though. Maybe they should be called an 'extended release winter nutritional block' instead of just a sugar block. 

Could this be a placebo effect on the bees? It _is _a possibility. The size and dosage of the blocks is quite small compared to a larger colonies needs. 
But as most of you know, the attitude of the colony is very important. Attitude can be everything.
If they have an over wintering 'contentment' or more enthusiasm and are eager to build better come spring, I'm OK with that.

Perhaps someone with knowlege about bee nutrition could improve on the recipe with additional ingredients.
Off hand, I can't think of a think I'd change.


----------



## WesternWilson

Lauri, I see Mann Lake is having a sale on Bee Pro. But I noticed they also sell Mega Bee, which is substantially more expensive than the Bee Pro. Any thoughts on whether it is worth the premium?

Regards,
Janet


----------



## Daniel Y

I use Mega Bee patties and the bees have always taken them readily. I got one bottle of Bee Pro. it was the last. bees will not touch it. Can't say why. just that it is.


----------



## WesternWilson

Sorry Daniel, I meant Ultra Bee...both that and Bee Pro are protein powder mixes you can yourself make into protein patties, as Lauri posted above.


----------



## WBVC

I will be watching for folks thoughts on the comparative value of these two products...is spending extra $ going to get significantly different results?



WesternWilson said:


> Sorry Daniel, I meant Ultra Bee...both that and Bee Pro are protein powder mixes you can yourself make into protein patties, as Lauri posted above.


----------



## beepro

How does an extended sugar blocks thread 
ended up like this.

I had use beepro and megabee before. I like
the mega better in fast consumption and fat
winter bees build up. But it tasted awful in the
powder form almost like salt and vinegar powder. 
Not something I like to eat. Has anybody tasted
the bee pro before to give a description?


----------



## Daniel Y

Have you tasted pollen to make a comparison? The stuff I have tasted is pretty bitter.


----------



## EastSideBuzz

Anyone made one of these for dehydrating.?

http://www.artifex.org/~meiercl/dehydrator/Electric_food_dehydrator_plans.pdf


----------



## green2btree

I have been having trouble getting the blocks to dry, Lauri, how thick are your blocks? I think I made some too thick. Ganged together my nucs a few days ago, ended up using pieces of the thinner blocks I made rather than full blocks. I was not sure if a couple of the nucs were alive (we have had to deal with that sudden cold surge) put I popped a piece of brick in anyway and ganged them up. As I started putting the insulation on top, it became apparent that they were all alive, every brick had bees on it already. They do like them!

JC


----------



## WBVC

I make my bricks in aluminum cake pans...about 8x13x1.5 They dry well in the dehydrator. Some of my hives are all over the bricks and others have no interest...all have equal honey stores. I don't know what determines which hives go to them immediately.


----------



## Daniel Y

EastSideBuzz said:


> Anyone made one of these for dehydrating.?
> 
> http://www.artifex.org/~meiercl/dehydrator/Electric_food_dehydrator_plans.pdf


Pretty much. Actually have made many of them. I call them incubators or kilns. depending on how hot I run them. Use something a lot more insulated and you don't need so much power to get the temperatures. I would run the same size thing on about 75 watts of power. One I run with 250 watts is over 22 cubic feet of interior space, reaches a temperature of over 200 degrees if I want it to, and is used as a dehydrator at times. Think an over sized refrigerator.


----------



## laketrout

Whats the average temp for a dehydrator .


----------



## EastSideBuzz

Mike Gillmore said:


> Great post Lauri !
> 
> If one does not have a dehydrator or greenhouse available, could the pans be put in a conventional oven on low heat to harden the sugar blocks?


Yes on low I do mine at 170 the lowest setting in the over. Except for the strong vinegar smell in the house all day it works just fine.



beepro said:


> How does an extended sugar blocks thread
> ended up like this.
> Has anybody tasted the bee pro before to give a description?


Do people taste the Purina also to see if it is better then the Alpo?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

EastSideBuzz said:


> Do people taste the Purina also to see if it is better then the Alpo?


You should know better than to pose such a question on Beesource! :lpf:

How about a professional (human) dog food taste tester ...
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/eats/meet-woman-eats-dog-food-living-article-1.1445406

k:

... a more interesting question is ...
... does KeithJ taste test Nutra-Bee ... :kn:
... or does _JSL _taste test with his product ...


----------



## Daniel Y

EastSideBuzz said:


> Do people taste the Purina also to see if it is better then the Alpo?


I suppose you could. I am not sure what information you would gather by doing so. It seems you think that better taste means better dog food? IN the years I spent breeding dogs we used a lot of factors to evaluate the value of any given food. mainly related to the health and condition of the dogs on any given amount of food.

Same would be true for subs. a sub bees don't eat has no value.


----------



## JonnyBeeGood

I made a batch per lauri's instructions and put in the oven at 200 degrees for a few hours. Everything looked good after 2 hours. The top was dry but it felt soft underneath so I left it in for another 45 mins and found foam at the top and a soft melting mass of sugar liquifying around the edges. 
Have I ruined it?? Will it still be safe to give the bees??


----------



## rookie2531

JonnyBeeGood said:


> I made a batch per lauri's instructions and put in the oven at 200 degrees for a few hours. Everything looked good after 2 hours. The top was dry but it felt soft underneath so I left it in for another 45 mins and found foam at the top and a soft melting mass of sugar liquifying around the edges.
> Have I ruined it?? Will it still be safe to give the bees??


I don't think her instructions were to bake. I did bake mine also, but used 1 cup vinegar to 5 pounds sugar. Next time I used more and got a hard crust and gooey center so I put it back in a bowl and mixed more sugar until sandy and tried again, it came out OK. It made me think of the time I tried Alton brown chewy candy recipe, those things never dried out, always had moisture.


----------



## enjambres

@Laketrout,

Finally got my first batch in the dehydrator today and measured the temps: @140 F. Plus because this is a dehydrator there is fan forced air.

And a note about using a rolling pin to make an evenly compressed (more crack-resistant) cakes. A friend who has never used one before said he really pressed down on the sugar mixture, with a poor end result. It wasn't until today when I was making mine that I realized that if you haven't had experience rolling out pie dough you might not realize that it takes a _only moderate_ downward pressure and a smooth outward movement in short, sort of glancing bursts to push the sugar down evenly. You should see it flatten down nicely as a bump of material travels in front of the pin. Work in one direction until you've done the whole pan. Add material to fill in low spots and then either rotate the pan 90 degrees, or rotate the pin and work from a crosswise direction. If you can sweet talk someone into making a pie from scratch watch how they roll out the dough. It's exactly that motion.

Enj.


----------



## EastSideBuzz

drlonzo said:


> jw - I forgot to mention the aroma didn't I. Sorry! It does put of a very loud aroma while it's in the oven. My wife is very understanding, she and the kids went to grandma's while I was doing ours. When they got back, house smelled like vinegar but went away pretty quickly. lol.. Bees were very happy though!


Totally have stunk up my house with the Vinegar smell. My 13 year old complains the most about me trying to kill her with the smell.  Need to get a large dehydrator. Cant find a big rack like Lauri has.


----------



## camero7

enjambres said:


> @Laketrout,
> 
> Finally got my first batch in the dehydrator today and measured the temps: @140 F. Plus because this is a dehydrator there is fan forced air.
> 
> And a note about using a rolling pin to make an evenly compressed (more crack-resistant) cakes. A friend who has never used one before said he really pressed down on the sugar mixture, with a poor end result. It wasn't until today when I was making mine that I realized that if you haven't had experience rolling out pie dough you might not realize that it takes a _only moderate_ downward pressure and a smooth outward movement in short, sort of glancing bursts to push the sugar down evenly. You should see it flatten down nicely as a bump of material travels in front of the pin. Work in one direction until you've done the whole pan. Add material to fill in low spots and then either rotate the pan 90 degrees, or rotate the pin and work from a crosswise direction. If you can sweet talk someone into making a pie from scratch watch how they roll out the dough. It's exactly that motion.
> 
> Enj.


I just use a plastic spoon [ladel size]. Tamp it down as I go and they come out fine.


----------



## Daniel Y

enjambres said:


> And a note about using a rolling pin to make an evenly compressed (more crack-resistant) cakes. A friend who has never used one before said he really pressed down on the sugar mixture, with a poor end result.


It is tough to try and describe how to use a tool isn't it? It has a touch and technique to it. I used to roll about 300 lbs of dough a day.


----------



## Daniel Y

EastSideBuzz said:


> Totally have stunk up my house with the Vinegar smell. My 13 year old complains the most about me trying to kill her with the smell.  Need to get a large dehydrator. Cant find a big rack like Lauri has.



Don't know if you have the room but think about an old broken refrigerator. I have never had a problem finding someone that woudl be glad to have you haul one away. I got lucky and found a broken laboratory incubator. it is actually larger than a refrigerator. I added a heat source and made some costume racks for it. I could stack 500 lbs of sugar cake in that thing. Come to think of it I could stack just 500 lbs of sugar in it just to keep it stored. Even apartment size fridges work well. The only thing I don't like is not being able to see in. The lab incubator has a full glass door on the front. Broken down whine coolers like they set under the bar and it holds a dozen bottles of wine are even better. they have glass fronts.

Anyway just a few ideas of what you can make a dehydrator out of.

As for a heat element and thermostat. get a lamp kit from Home Depot for around $10. and a hot water heater thermostat from the same place for another $10. 

I usually drill a hole in a block of 2X4 to hold the lamp fixture. then I attach another block of 2X4 to the first so that they are in an L shape. The lamp is sticking up from the bottom block the thermostat gets screwed to the top of the L and hangs right over the lamp. there is only about 1 inch between the lamp and the stat. This gives you very stable temperature control.

A hot water heater stat may have trouble letting you get to 160 degree or so. If so cover the location of the disk with a piece of metal until it allows temps to get that high. Basically you can toy with just how the stat is exposed to the heat source and get higher temperatures.


----------



## EastSideBuzz

Daniel Y said:


> A hot water heater stat may have trouble letting you get to 160 degree or so. If so cover the location of the disk with a piece of metal until it allows temps to get that high. Basically you can toy with just how the stat is exposed to the heat source and get higher temperatures.


So I typically use these when I build warming fridges. It should work for the dehydrator also. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0015NV5BE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Thanks for the refer idea. I have one for warming. I guess I can look at another for dehydrating. Not as portable as one of these http://www.restaurantequipment.com/holdingcabinets.html.

I wonder if you can convert this into a dehydrator http://www.lowes.com/pd_591037-4722...erSearch=ffbc46l2qs&productId=50160175&rpp=32. If you add heat coils you could have a dehydrator and refer all in one.


----------



## laketrout

Enjambres , thanks for checking the temp wasn't sure how hi they went , also how important is a fan .


----------



## BeeCurious

I would think that a large number of people could simply allow the moisture to evaporate from the molds/pans that they choose to use. Sugar "cakes" easily without any heat. 

If allowed to air dry for several days one could skip all the heaters, boxes, old refrigerators, fans etc. 

Obviously, if trays of wet material are put inside a closed box, ventilation will be necessary. Skip the complications, water wants to evaporate, and sugar harders very well on its own without fans, blowers, coils and thermostats... At least that's the way it has been at my house.


----------



## toekneepea

And Lauri's greenhouse, as published back at the beginning. People use dehydrators, ovens, etc. to speed up the process.

Tony


----------



## 37 V8

I've got sugar cakes drying in my basement, 2 furnaces and a dehumidifier dry 9" cake pans in 2-3 days rock hard. The large aluminum pans took a week and still weren't totally hard. The round cake pans dry quicker and are easier to handle, and at 88 cents each won't break the bank. The big aluminum pans were over $10 each and take much longer to dry.


----------



## Daniel Y

EastSideBuzz said:


> So I typically use these when I build warming fridges. It should work for the dehydrator also. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0015NV5BE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Thanks for the refer idea. I have one for warming. I guess I can look at another for dehydrating. Not as portable as one of these http://www.restaurantequipment.com/holdingcabinets.html.
> 
> I wonder if you can convert this into a dehydrator http://www.lowes.com/pd_591037-4722...erSearch=ffbc46l2qs&productId=50160175&rpp=32. If you add heat coils you could have a dehydrator and refer all in one.


I use temperature controllers on indoor applications only. I have found they fail on and will overheat in outdoor conditions. At the very least have a second stat in the circuit as a safety.

The links in your post either won't load for me, may be my computer. or are broken.


----------



## toekneepea

Lauri said:


> Perhaps someone with knowlege about bee nutrition could improve on the recipe with additional ingredients.
> Off hand, I can't think of a thing I'd change.


I saw a presentation by Noah Wilson-Rich, a researcher interested in honeybee nutrition and immune response (his Ted Talk can be found here). He spoke about the similarity in the biomes of Honeybees and humans, and that the bees could benefit by adding probiotics to syrup for feeding.

He cited this study: Bacterial Probiotics Induce an Immune Response in the Honey Bee _(Hymenoptera: Apidae)_ 

by JAY D. EVANS and DAWN L. LOPEZ
USDAÐARS Bee Research Laboratory, BARC-East Building 476, Beltsville, MD 20705

J. Econ. Entomol. 97(3): 752Ð756 (2004)

ABSTRACT
To explore immune system activation in the honey bee, Apis mellifera L., larvae of four ages were exposed through feeding to spores of a natural pathogen, Paenibacillus larvae larvae
, to cells of a diverse set of related non-pathogenic bacteria,and to bacterial coat components.These larvae were then assayed for RNA levels of genes encoding two antibacterial peptides, abaecin and defensin.Larvae exposed to either P. l. larvae or a mix of non-pathogenic bacteria showed high RNA levels for the abaecin gene relative to controls. First instars responded significantly to the presence of the non-pathogenic mix within 12h after exposure, a time when they remain highly susceptible to bacterial invasion. This response was sustained for two successive instars, eventually becoming 21-fold higher in larvae exposed to probiotic spores versus control larvae. The mixture of nonpathogenic bacteria is therefore presented as a potential surrogate for assaying the immune responses of different honeybee lineages. *It also is proposed that non-pathogenic bacteria can be used as a probiotic to enhance honey bee immunity, helping bee larvae, and other life stages, survive attacks from pathogens in the field.*


I modified Lauri's basic recipe slightly, adjusting the amounts based on 10# of sugar (for hobbyists like me that don't need as many blocks):

10 pounds sugar
1 Tablespoon citric acid
1/4 teaspoon elecytrolytes
3 capsules probiotics (available from your local health-food/whole-foods)
1 and 1/4 cups Apple Cider Vinegar

This filled 3 aluminum 8" x 12" x 1" trays, which dried very quickly in my Excalibur Dehydrator set to 130 F.

Admittedly, real Apple Cider Vinegar (with the Mother, not the ACV-flavored vinegars) contains probiotics; I just added some additional strains (based upon the suggestion by Noah Wilson-Rich).

Cheers,
Tony P.


----------



## EastSideBuzz

I just picked up one of these to use to dehydrate. 








http://www.hatcocorp.com/products/page/humidified-holding-cabinet-947

It will hold 7 full size trays and can go down to 120 degree's. Plus I can use it at Thanksgiving and Christmas to hold the food warmer. Muti purposed.

I do wonder if the vinegar will corrode anything as it evaporates.


----------



## oldiron56

My black Blazer dries the cakes out pretty quick,,,,Pete


----------



## capathome

Lots of chat about how to form and dry Lauri's sugar bricks. Pans, dehydrators, oven settings. I mixed mine in a bucket with a paint stirrer on a drill, then scooped it into brown paper lunch sacks. Each sack can hold as much as 4 pounds of the mixture. Pretty handy when you get sugar in 4 lb bags. Lay them out flat and mash them down to the thickness of your feeder rims, let dry several days, preferably outside. They do put out plenty of vinegar smell.

The bag solves a couple of problems. 
No pans to buy. No expensive dehydrators
Cost is just pennies for 100 bags
Catches all the pieces and crumbles
Easier to handle, they can be stacked after dry. Breakage is no big deal.
The bees will easily work through the thin paper bag.

I found that 2 bags fit great on a nuc and 4 bags fit on a full 10 frame hive with about 3/4 inch around the perimeter for ventilation. I made my feeder rims 3 inches tall. That lets me put 4 pounds in each bag, so the nucs get 8 pounds of feed insurance

The bees LOVED this recipe. They were all over it as soon as it was put on the top bars.

capathome


----------



## NewbeeInNH

Great info and link! Thanks!


----------



## Lauri

EastSideBuzz said:


> I just picked up one of these to use to dehydrate.
> 
> View attachment 14665
> 
> http://www.hatcocorp.com/products/page/humidified-holding-cabinet-947


That looks almost like it would make a decent incubator too.
May I ask what they cost?

I've never had the vinegar corrode anything.


----------



## Just Krispy

I have made 2 batches in the last week. One was put in the oven at 200 for 3 hours and got slightly gooey on the bottom . The other I set out next to a heat run near a sunny window and dried in a few hours.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

The regular retail for the Hatco model#FSHC-5W1-EE 'Proofing Cabinet' that _EastSideBuzz _linked appears to be $3269, based on these vendors:
http://www.webstaurantstore.com/hat...le-holding-proofing-cabinet/413FSHC5W1EE.html
-and -
http://www.hotelrestaurantsupply.com/HAT-FSHC-5W1-EE.html

However, here is a used one for $995: http://www.wholesalerestaurant.com/p-2858-used-flav-r-savor-portable-holding-cabinet.aspx


----------



## beepro

I made 2 shallow pans of them last night.
Then put the pans in the oven at 250 for 3 hours. My question is do they have
to be completely dry to the core before I can use them? Is it o.k. at 70% dryness? They came out
perfect hard like a brick my first try. Cane sugary smell with a hint of sour taste. I like them too.


----------



## EastSideBuzz

Lauri said:


> That looks almost like it would make a decent incubator too.
> May I ask what they cost?


I got mine on criags list for 600 bucks. It is the 7-1 version I see them all over the country for about the same price on craigs list. Search tempest will do a much wider search.

Nice thing is without water in the tank it dehydrates, with water it will do moist for the incubator kind of thing. Multi purpose thing on wheels.


https://www2.hatcocorp.com/LIT/SPECSHEETS/000000004173421-00006-20141029.PDF
http://www.manualslib.com/products/Hatco-Fshc-7-1-577620.html


----------



## labradorfarms

I have been using the MCamp method. Tonight I mixed up about 10 cups of sugar with a few teaspoons of HBH. I put it in the oven for 10 mins until the oven hit 350 then took it out. Let it harden and broke into small pieces. 
I will go out tomorrow and put the small chunks on my hives.

I figure the heat breaks the sugar down , so the bees can digest it better and avoid it being hauled out as trash.

And man oh man does the house smell good......


----------



## jwcarlson

labradorfarms said:


> I have been using the MCamp method. Tonight I mixed up about 10 cups of sugar with a few teaspoons of HBH. I put it in the oven for 10 mins until the oven hit 350 then took it out. Let it harden and broke into small pieces.
> I will go out tomorrow and put the small chunks on my hives.
> 
> I figure the heat breaks the sugar down , so the bees can digest it better and avoid it being hauled out as trash.
> 
> And man oh man does the house smell good......


The heat can turn the sugar into something that can kill the bees I believe.


----------



## beepro

I will try on my strongest hive first. And if they do not die after 1 week then I will try on
the rest of the other hives. The oven has a thermostat that will not burn off the bricks as long
as your temp. is not set too high.


----------



## labradorfarms

jwcarlson said:


> The heat can turn the sugar into something that can kill the bees I believe.



From all I been told its no worse than making sugar syurp.... The same rules apply...... Don't scorch it and the bees will be fine....

Scorched sugar will kill bees.......

I even tasted mine to make sure it wasn't scorched.


----------



## deknow

HMF formation does not require scorching.


----------



## WesternWilson

I think if you turn the oven to 200 and then turn it off as the sugar goes in...that may be safer. 

After two batches of failed fondant...got thick goo instead...I am willing to put trays of dampened sugar into my own dehydrator (the furnace room!) a la Lauri Miller's method.


----------



## beepro

No wonder. The heat is too high there by melting the sugar. 
So what is the ideal temp. setting for drying them then?

I'm sure a food dehydrator is the most effective method but not everyone has one. So the slow
continuous heating method will do. Maybe put a 60 watt light bulb in there for a slow heat releasing process time?


----------



## WesternWilson

Beepro, I messed up a fondant recipe on the stove by monkeying with the vinegar and water proportions. Dampened sugar dried in the furnace room is fail proof just slow and the sugar cakes are a bit crumbly. Fondant on the stove ie. making a hard fudge, is less forgiving!


----------



## laketrout

I'm not having any problems with the oven at 170 and the door cracked open , I use to leave the door open when drying venison jerky , I think you get some ventilation going and give the moisture a way out , and it doesn't get to hot .


----------



## beepro

Then how do we know when the sugar bricks are finished. Do we look at the shiny white
crystal when they are all harden and no longer have the vinegar smell?


----------



## laketrout

For me the top of the bricks dry first , if you flip one over and look on the bottom or look at the edge you can see if there dried all the way through or not .I tried flipping them over to dry the bottom side but they wouldn't fit back in the pan the same way and if there not fully supported they will sag when reheated and eventually break .If the wife has some flat cookie sheets without the lip that she will let me use!! I'm going to try transferring them over to dry the bottom .


----------



## beepro

I see what you mean now. It is better to transfer them onto another foil pan to cure on the other side.
And they will stick together if stack one on top of another on the 2nd cure. Better to put them all flat on the 
tray. Going to improve on this process more. Cannot smell anymore vinegar once they are completely cured.
Does that mean the sugar got inverted?
I cut mine into blocks before going into the oven for easy flipping on the 2nd cure. Thanks for the good tips.


2nd cure some broken off:


----------



## EastSideBuzz

beepro said:


> Then how do we know when the sugar bricks are finished. Do we look at the shiny white
> crystal when they are all harden and no longer have the vinegar smell?


48 hours sub 150 will do it. The vinegar smell is not going to go away. that is why you add the essential oils like lemon grass or the like to help with the scent for them.


----------



## NewbeeInNH

Anyone working on their next batch yet?

I'm doing another 15 lbs. sugar/1.5 cups ACV today. Have to time it when fewest people are visiting the house so I don't fume them out.

I put cakes in the hives in early November, and figured I'd give it 2 months. I wasn't at all happy with the honey stores from the summer and nervous about the syrup stores in the fall. This is great insurance.

The only issue I'm going to have is getting the cakes into the bottom hives when I have a small hive overwintering on top. I have 2 like that. I'm hoping by the time I add these cakes (probably 3 wks. away, maybe January thaw, we'll see), the top hives will be light enough that it won't be too terribly difficult to raise them up and stick a sugar cake on the top frames of the bottom hive.

CROSSING FINGERS EVERYONE IS ALIVE AND THRIVING AND WILL SURVIVE UNTIL SPRING!!!

One hopeful observation is that so far I don't seem to be seeing any quantity of dead bees on the snow. I believe last year it was happening, and made me nervous. Last year I had one hive survive out of two. But I don't think it was a starvation issue because there were still stores in that hive, altho maybe they just couldn't move to where the stores were. With these sugar cakes, I try to cover the top frames (or at least where the bees aren't) to provide access.


----------



## camero7

I'm finding that the nucs are consuming the sugar blocks over the fondant about 2:1. I've had to replace the blocks at least once on several strong nucs. Not so with the fondant. Think I like the blocks better. But I'm making them on a regular basis since my dehydrator can only do 8 at a time.


----------



## NewbeeInNH

No wonder. Have you tasted the sugar/vinegar combo? YUM! (I only licked my fingers - I promise)


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## beepro

NewbeeInNH said:


> Anyone working on their next batch yet?
> The only issue I'm going to have is getting the cakes into the bottom hives when I have a small hive overwintering on top. I have 2 like that.



It seems like the temp. at 100-170F will do on a slow cook. Too high a temp. the bricks will turn brown at 250-300F.
I've heard that cooking vinegar also help with the cold flu too or general house disinfectant.
To dry the sugar better I put them into a 1 1/4" shallow disposable aluminum party food tray. Very cheap at the local .99cents store. And compact the sugar with a small canning glass jar. I have also made my bee box 1.5" taller for the bricks to fit in. Very good for lower hive bricks/patty feeding on a 2 nuc hives set up. This is good without the extra 2" shim above the hive. If your nuc hive is short then feeding them under another hive need to add an extra shim all around so the bricks will fit in better. Maybe you can make the bricks thinner to fit inside the hive but have to add more. Either that or add whole sugar frame like this thread:


windfall said:


> I have built a number of "frames" which run 1 1/2" the whole way around, but have the conventional ears to hang in hive. Then covered the open faces in 1/2" hardware cloth.
> Laying flat, you can pack these with sugar dampened with a bit of hot 2:1 and they will dry hard in a day or two.
> I have found them useful for filling out a hive that might not have completely filled up on winter stores, should November come and a hive has a couple frames that didn't get drawn out you just swap it out for the sugar frame (at the edges is where I left them)
> It worked pretty well. Sometimes they would haul parts out as trash.
> It was most useful my first few years, when I had fewer resources to insure hives were packed out come winter. If I had had the drawn comb I would have put it in those hives earlier and fed them up.
> I'm sure it's been done lots of times before....


On a hive check today, the bees are eating them nicely. So I added the remaining bricks into another nuc hive. Going to cook another batch soon as I have some time before they used up the first batch. They are eating the bricks fast as they are brooding up too. I don't see them eating the capped honey or open nectar. So far so good. And have high hope that they will overwinter fine. The queens still laying now and have nice frames in smaller batches of capped broods now. The well fed young winter bees are much fatter than the Fall bees too.

I have also licked the finished brick just for the taste of it. I just wanted to know if they are sour or sweet after drying. Anyone like to tell me what their bricks
taste like?


----------



## beepro

dups


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## dsegrest

I have to confess to not really using the whole recipe.

I put a quart of vinegar into a 5 gallon bucket and gradually stirred in 12# of sugar. It wasn't easy. When the mixture seemed to be well mixed it was poured into some 2 for $1 trays from family dollar and cut into quarters. There were a total of 14 segments. 

They were placed on the dining room table and were ready to use in about 3 days. They actually stayed there until thanksgiving when my wife threatened the trash can. The bees got a shot at them Monday and they are munching away like kids in a candy store.


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## laketrout

That sounds like you doubled the amount of vinegar , Lauri's recipe called for one qt. vinegar to 25 pds. sugar , I'm surprised you were able to get it to dry .


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## dsegrest

laketrout said:


> That sounds like you doubled the amount of vinegar , Lauri's recipe called for one qt. vinsgar to 25 pds. sugar , I'm surprised you were able to get it to dry .


I am sorry for the error. I put 1 pint of vinegar. I was thinking of the whole recipe when I made the post.


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## NewbeeInNH

> They were placed on the dining room table and were ready to use in about 3 days. They actually stayed there until thanksgiving when my wife threatened the trash can.


Beekeeping should be part of marriage licenses, with both parties understanding that it is not only a major investment of money, but of space. Who among us has not turned a spare bedroom into a storage area for supers, frames, equipment, and vinegar aroma sugar cakes? 

LOL.

(Or at least for us garage, basement and attic deprived households)


----------



## JonnyBeeGood

I broke it down to 3 lbs sugar, 1 tsp. of citric acid, and a pinch of electrolytes. Stir in 4 oz. of AC vinegar that's been mixed with a splash of HBH. It stirs up easy in a mixing bowl with a wooden spoon and I can mix up several in just a few minutes, get it in the oven with very little mess and the wife is sort of okay with it. 😁
170 deg. with the door propped open for an hour at a clip seems to work well. I find letting it cool and then going for another hour keeps it from starting to melt. I'm still searching for the best process though. I'm trying the same process in the little toaster/convection oven that has a dehydrate setting. 90 mins with the door closed started to melt in the middle so the door needs to be open a bit. 
My first batch wasn't as dry as I would have liked but the weather was in my favor so I gave it to them. 4 strong hives polished them off in less than a week!!! Maybe because they were soft... That's what I'm thinking.


----------



## beepro

JonnyBeeGood said:


> I'm still searching for the best process though.



I only use ACV for the sugar mix. I too use the aluminum dollar
store shallow baking trays.
My recipe is 1 cup ACV mixed in approx. 5.5 lbs of sugar.
Put 4 lbs of sugar inside a gallon plastic bag then pour the entire cup of ACV in to mix.
Put in more dry sugar to make a right clumping consistency. Not too wet but not to loose after the squeeze. If the sugar
is too loose after squeezing then it is too dry. If the sugar is too wet after the squeeze then it needs more dry sugar to get
the right consistency. It is just like squeezing a clump of compost not too much water coming out during the squeeze and not too loose afterward. 
So you want a batch that will wet all the sugar with the vinegar.

Then pour the sugar out into a curing shallow 1 1/4" aluminum tray.
Next use a small glass jar to roll and pack the sugar in. Then use a knife to divide the sugar into smaller bricks by cutting into the center horizontally and then 2 more vertical cut. This should give you 6 bricks total. 
Put this sugar tray into the CENTER of the oven at 150F for about 2 hours and then flip the bricks over to dry further. If the sugar is not yet cure enough then wait longer before flipping them. The dry bricks should have a shiny glare on the sugar. The more you dry the bricks the more moisture they can absorb inside the hive. So curing over time is very important in this process.

Tips: I would use an electric mixer to speed up this process the next time. 
Put more dry sugar on top of the bricks before putting the tray into the oven to avoid browning when the temp is too high. Put a cookie sheet on top will help to avoid the browning of the bricks also. Double the aluminum trays and you will have 12 bricks.


----------



## NewbeeInNH

My way is a little simpler. 5 lbs. sugar to 3/4 cup ACV (I usually make a 15 lb. sugar batch at a time), mix in large bowl with wooden spoon, put your hands in to finish mixing, lick your fingers (yum), spoon into shallow baking pans or even regular baking pans, I'm not going to buy pans for this, but USE PARCHMENT PAPER TO LINE THE PAN. That makes it so much easier to lift them out. I roll them flat and solid with a glass jar too because those are what I have on hand and make good rolling pins. The pans I use are the size that the whole sheet will fit right on top of the super. No cutting necessary! 

Then I heat the oven to the lowest temperature, which happens to be 170F, slide the pans in there, set the timer for 2 hours, put them on the counter to cool, and voila. You're done. When it's time to put into the hives, use the parchment paper to pull that sugar brick right out of the pan. Sometimes it cracks, but I doubt the bees care if there are 2 pieces instead of one.


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## beepro

In that case I would use an electric drill mixer to speed up the mixing process.
Other than that everything is the same. Anything else to further improve?
Good tips on using the paper. I'll put in the wax baking cookie sheet for that.


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## EastSideBuzz

I am thinking I need one of these for next years batches.









Hand mixing in a bucket it tough. Each 25# makes one and 1/2 trays. so to fil my dehydrator it takes 5 buckets mixed.


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## snl

R2D2?


----------



## drlonzo

snl said:


> R2D2?


:lpf:
I used my wife's Kitchen Aid Mixer.. Smaller batches, but didn't have to do much besides dump it in.


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## EastSideBuzz

Wondering if anyone tried using a cement mixer to mix. I will try it tomorrow. Since it is not real liquid wonder how the mix will go. It clumps up when I do it in a bucket.

Cant afford a 30 or 40 quart mixer yet. The big ones require 3 phase and I only want to do 110.


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## rookie2531

I have read a couple others say, cement mixer don't work, but mortar mixer is the way to go. I think I read it on the scientific beekeepers site too.


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## VickyLynn

I have a batch drying in my Excalibar food drier. It is taking forever. They seemed hard on the bottom, but the top was mushy, so I mixed in more sugar into the melted sugar on the top. Now, it's smooth as a baby's bottom and bounces back like a cake that's done. It's been in the drier for almost two weeks - two days since I topped it off with sugar. I must have measured it wrong, that's the only thing I can think of. 

Laurie never mentioned greasing the pans to help get the blocks out. I've been looking at mine (in an assortment of trays and small cooky sheets - whatever would fit in the drier) and wondering if, when they finally are dry, whether I will be able to get them out in one piece, or will they crumble.

I am hoping to use them when we get out next thaw. I must say, this is a tasty recipe, discovered when licking my fingers stirring in the extra sugar.


----------



## camero7

> I have a batch drying in my Excalibar food drier. It is taking forever.


I think you probably have the temp too high and added too much liquid to the sugar. I dry mine overnight and nothing melts. I put the temp at 125° - works like a charm. I have noticed that when I'm too light with the ACV the blocks are a little crumbly. But it's better to be too light than too wet.


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## Mike Gillmore

The first batch I mixed up had too much liquid in it and was taking forever to dry. I finally dumped it all back into a bucket, mixed in more sugar, and refilled the trays. They dried up nicely after that. The trick is to keep the mix very crumbly and not too wet. I lay my pans out by the heater vent in our spare room and they dry up within a week or so. Should be much quicker in a dehydrator.

I used some round 8" cake pans, 1 1/2" deep (non teflon) and lined them with plastic wrap before packing in the sugar. When they were dry they popped right out intact. Probably not a good idea for a drier but you could try it on some that you air dry.


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## squarepeg

are those of you using lauri's recipe sprinkling dry pollen sub on top?


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## kingd

VickyLynn said:


> I have a batch drying in my Excalibar food drier. It is taking forever. They seemed hard on the bottom, but the top was mushy, so I mixed in more sugar into the melted sugar on the top. Now, it's smooth as a baby's bottom and bounces back like a cake that's done. It's been in the drier for almost two weeks - two days since I topped it off with sugar. I must have measured it wrong, that's the only thing I can think of.
> 
> Laurie never mentioned greasing the pans to help get the blocks out. I've been looking at mine (in an assortment of trays and small cooky sheets - whatever would fit in the drier) and wondering if, when they finally are dry, whether I will be able to get them out in one piece, or will they crumble.


 I run my Excaliber at 125 degrees and when dry they pop right out of the pans,no oil or grease used.


----------



## VickyLynn

kingd said:


> I run my Excaliber at 125 degrees and when dry they pop right out of the pans,no oil or grease used.


I've got mine set at 135 degrees. It's good to know they will pop out easily. I'll give it a few more days since they seem a little more solid right now.

Squarepeg: "are those of you using lauri's recipe sprinkling dry pollen sub on top?" 

I didn't put anything on these, because I was/am planning to put them in in January. I have some megabee candy that I can put in come February when the queen may be starting up again. I also have some pollen patties in the freezer that I can add then. I didn't want to add anything that might make them need to pee sooner than later, just in case we get no thaws, like the awful winter last year.


----------



## biggraham610

thanks for the recipe Lauri, i used it minus the electrolytes and citric acid. I put it in the oven on 170 for a couple hours then just set it out. It did break apart but in big enough chunks that there was very little waste. Bees seem to be loving it. G:thumbsup:


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## camero7

squarepeg said:


> are those of you using lauri's recipe sprinkling dry pollen sub on top?


not here. sometimes too long before the bees get a cleansing flight


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## EastSideBuzz

I used my Harbor Freight cement mixer today to make my blocks. It worked OK. It made snow balls that you had to smush all the time.
http://www.harborfreight.com/3-1-2-half-cubic-ft-cement-mixer-67538.html

I started with 50lbs of sugar. I changed back to 25 lbs at a time later it was easier to smush.



Then turned it on and slowly added in the liquid mixture.



I let it run for a while to mix



There were lots of snowballs.



I used a drill and mix wand to break up the snowballs of vinegar.
http://www.harborfreight.com/all-purpose-mixer-41015.html
The nice thing is there is a huge container to work with. When I was using buckets it was small.



Spun it out into the tray.



Rolled it with a roller and cut lines with a pizza cutter.



Placed the 6 trays into the dehydrator. 



In 3-4 days at 130 they will be hard as rock and I just flip the pan and slap the bottom and they just pop out.

The Mixer worked just not sure if it is the best way to do it. I am thinking of adding some 1/2 inch chicken wire screening in the mixer to help break up the clumps. Since I already have the mixer it is way cheaper then buying a commercial kitchen mixer. Doing it in the mixer was easier then in the buckets and easier to clean then the kitchen floor. I am just waiting for the rain to help clean everything up. And this time of year in Washington only have to wait an hour or so for the next rain.


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## Michael B

No dehydrator here. My gas oven at 170° is too hot. The sugar started to melt. I made about 30 trays up and have them air drying.


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## camero7

Michael B said:


> No dehydrator here. My gas oven at 170° is too hot. The sugar started to melt. I made about 30 trays up and have them air drying.


really worth the investment IMO. I get consistent drying and much quicker, especially this time of year.


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## My-smokepole

East side You might try putting a bowling ball in with it. Look up mulling (sp) for casting green sand mold for metal casting.


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## EastSideBuzz

My-smokepole said:


> East side You might try putting a bowling ball in with it. Look up mulling (sp) for casting green sand mold for metal casting.


Bowling ball would be to big I will have to figure something smaller. Some lead balls or something.


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## mgstei1

Put liquid in 1st and start mixer. Don't dump from bag, use a shovel or a bucket and slowly add the sugar a small amount at a time. Give the blades time to mix sugar and stop when it even thinks about lumping. Keep adding slowly. And then go slower yet. It may take longer than you want but the end product will be ready to cake in pans.
In my earlier days I mixed hod for some drunk masons but they knew their stuff. If it wasn't right when I brought it to their batter boards, they would dump it and tell me to slow down on the mix. 
Sugar is just like Portland and sand. Just mix it slow, and then even slow up more.

I learned from them guys and when they all decided to quit for the day, it was right then. Next morning I always had to use a sledge hammer on the mixer and batter boards to get yesterdays hod off everything. Somedays they worked 10 minutes and if it rained in the next county that was a rain out for them. 
Sugar and vinegar would be a pleasure to mix and create a master tub of sugar!! Just slow down.


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## Michael B

camero7 said:


> really worth the investment IMO. I get consistent drying and much quicker, especially this time of year.


What brand and type do you have? I am looking at a couple on eBay.


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## EastSideBuzz

Michael B said:


> What brand and type do you have? I am looking at a couple on eBay.


http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...method-for-sugar-blocks&p=1189604#post1189604



mgstei1 said:


> Somedays they worked 10 minutes and if it rained in the next county that was a rain out for them.


Thanks for the advice. I will try that next time slowing down. I used to be a carpenter and we would draw a circle on the ground and if 5 rain drops went in the circle we would go home. Your comment totally brought back memories.


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## Michael B

EastSideBuzz said:


> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...method-for-sugar-blocks&p=1189604#post1189604


How much did it cost?


----------



## snl

I give, what am I missing? There a million posts (well almost) here on making, drying, adding, subtracting, equipment purchases and it goes on and on ........

It just seems like a TON of work. Is there really THAT big of advantage here in doing all this work vs just pouring some sugar on paper in the hive and misting it? Or are beekeepers just doing this to try something different than they were doing??


----------



## Michael B

snl said:


> I give, what am I missing? There a million posts (well almost) here on making, drying, adding, subtracting, equipment purchases and it goes on and on ........
> 
> It just seems like a TON of work. Is there really THAT big of advantage here in doing all this work vs just pouring some sugar on paper in the hive and misting it? Or are beekeepers just doing this to try something different than they were doing??


Come on, can't we have fun?


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## Mountain Man

I ordered the vitamins yesterday and going to try make a few blocks this weekend, gotta get me a mixer for my drill


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## yotebuster1200

EastSideBuzz said:


> I am thinking I need one of these for next years batches.
> 
> View attachment 14918
> 
> 
> Hand mixing in a bucket it tough. Each 25# makes one and 1/2 trays. so to fil my dehydrator it takes 5 buckets mixed.


I was just given a 20 quart Hobart mixer a couple weeks ago. It had a broken gear that cost me about 20 dollars to replace. I was thinking it would work perfect for this.


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## camero7

camero7 said:


> really worth the investment IMO. I get consistent drying and much quicker, especially this time of year.


I bought this one. Works great. I also use it to de-crystallize honey.
http://www.amazon.com/Excalibur-392...19934486&sr=8-3&keywords=best+food+dehydrator


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## snl

You need R2D2 to mix sub?


----------



## mgstei1

EastSideBuzz said:


> http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...method-for-sugar-blocks&p=1189604#post1189604
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice. I will try that next time slowing down. I used to be a carpenter and we would draw a circle on the ground and if 5 rain drops went in the circle we would go home. Your comment totally brought back memories.


back in 60's and early 70's construction was lots more union jobs. There are workers out there today that don't have a clue where all their benefits came from and who sacrificed to get what they have.
And now, the corporate managers are taking lots of those benefits away.
The pendulum will swing back hopefully when the youngsters finally wake up.


----------



## EastSideBuzz

Michael B said:


> How much did it cost?


 $600 on CL



yotebuster1200 said:


> I was just given a 20 quart Hobart mixer a couple weeks ago. It had a broken gear that cost me about 20 dollars to replace. I was thinking it would work perfect for this.


Let me know how it works. I think that #25 lb will mix in that hobart 20 quart. 25# of sugar is 14 quarts + vinegar is 15 quarts so some spare room. BTW nice gift that is a $1500-$2000 unit used.



snl said:


> You need R2D2 to mix sub?


No just to mix 50lb of sugar at a time. My mixer worked so I am going to wait. Plus R2D2 takes up a lot of floor space and is 220 or 3phase.



snl said:


> I give, what am I missing? There a million posts (well almost) here on making, drying, adding, subtracting, equipment purchases and it goes on and on ........
> 
> It just seems like a TON of work. Is there really THAT big of advantage here in doing all this work vs just pouring some sugar on paper in the hive and misting it? Or are beekeepers just doing this to try something different than they were doing??


Like a good movie many story lines. We are inverting the sugar with the solution much easier for them to eat and digest. I also believe the acidity helps with the tracheal mites (could be wrong). Now if you can get Dri-Vert then you can mountain camp it. Costco stopped carrying it here in the west so I cant find it. They did offer that I could get it if I would buy 16 Pallets at a time. But, that is way to much. My saver in me did the math and my wife would have killed me. I would take me like 20 years to use it all up. White sugar is cheaper +the vinegar and extra's is still cheaper then drivert. This is easy it is in a block one block on each hive and no mess. Sugar they can haul out and drop outside the hive the block they need to eat and it is already inverted so easier on the digestive system in the winter.



mgstei1 said:


> And now, the corporate managers are taking lots of those benefits away.
> The pendulum will swing back hopefully when the youngsters finally wake up.


It was piece when I was in the union. You got paid 8 hours to frame a house etc. For us that hustled we made over wage for the slackers they got less then scale. It was union busting but, that is a whole other thread.


----------



## JonnyBeeGood

Michael B said:


> No dehydrator here. My gas oven at 170° is too hot. The sugar started to melt. I made about 30 trays up and have them air drying.


 2 hours in the oven at 170, with the door propped open a bit works fantastic for me. After that I leave them out in a room with the fireplace and ceiling fan going for a few days or until I'm ready to use them. I keep my bricks about 1" thick and it has worked well.


----------



## Ryan Williamson

Ok so I just caught the sugar block bug. 
I made up 225 lbs of sugar in 9 5gal bucket batches. 
Here are some photos of the 4x8 foot sugar block that I made in my "mobile solar greenhouse drying machine." 
I hope this will make some folks smile.



One bucket dumped at the back of the mobile solar dryer



second bucket dumped


I rolled it out and then pulled the plastic deeper into the dryer to make room for dumping the next two buckets. I pulled the plastic in after each two bucket batch was rolled out so I could stand up straight at the tailgate rolling the sugar.


The final product. The heater was just to speed up night time drying due to the cold January weather. Two fans really helped and all was dry in three days.
BOY does the van stink of vinegar! Wow! My wife claims she won't ride in it for at least a month.... 


92 shims freshly made from scrap wood in my 8'x8' garden shed. I need a bigger wood shop!


A small colony of very hungry bees getting their first Lauri's sugar block!

The first batch is on the hives and much to my wife's chagrin the second batch of 200lbs is rolled out and drying in the "mobile solar dryer"

Thanks Lauri!


----------



## Mike Gillmore

And you are still under the same roof. Your wife is a saint! 

Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

So does the "mobile solar greenhouse drying machine" remain _immobile _while the dehydration is taking place, or is the "machine" traveling the local roads with hundreds of pounds of a suspicious white material in the cargo area?


----------



## allniter

I can hear now ---POLICEMAN calling in --I have just found the biggest load of DOPE U have ever seen ---lol


----------



## laketrout

Thats what I call thinking outside the box !!!!!!!!!! Watch the potholes !!!!


----------



## TalonRedding

Nice! It's amazing that you're not "living in a van down by the river"! Wait....drying machine in this case.


----------



## Lauri

Ryan Williamson
I think YOU win the prize! WOW


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## Harley Craig

I'm sure those images will show up on some kind of you might be a ******* if....email lol. I got in trouble for making them in the house


----------



## Ryan Williamson

I'm glad you all enjoyed the photos.
Mike, I'm still in the house thanks to the mobile drying machine.....Just think of the smell if I had made them in the house! 2 gal of cider vinager has a bit if smell. Yes the drying machine us moblie but I have to drive with the windows down and the heater on full tilt so I don't smell like a vinager bomb. Ironically my wife got caught in it the second night. I do leave a door cracked to let the vapors out while drying. Thankfully I work from home.


----------



## Lauri

Be sure to keep in mind your local climate conditions.

My local weather and temps have been unusually mild this winter. My bees are rearing brood over a month earlier that normal..and are looking for protein in a big way. With no natural pollen available yet, I've been feeding dry Bee Pro. Which they have taken up with enthusiasm.



















I notice, when checking my sugar blocks, it is pretty easy to see which colonies are rearing brood already. They've consumed all the bee pro off the top of the blocks, something I've not seen them do before this year. 
Here is how the blocks look when I first install them. A generous sift of dry protein on TOP the block, not mixed in. I want the protein available free choice_ if _they want it. I don't want to stimulate early brood rearing, but I do want to _support_ it if it has started:










And here is how I am finding many of them:










I am feeding my wet protein mix now, but here is how I am doing it. Since they are so interested in the dry mix, I am reapplying it to what's left of the sugar block and them gooping on a glob of the complete protein mix.





































If you are still in the dead of winter with no chance for cleansing flights. I would NOT do this. (Give them protein supp)
But in the Pacific Northwest our warm winter temps have jump started growth, whether we are ready or not.


----------



## oldiron56

Ya see? I`m not the only *******


----------



## oldiron56

oldiron56 said:


> My black Blazer dries the cakes out pretty quick,,,,Pete


Ya see? I`m not the only *******.


----------



## jwcarlson

Lauri said:


> Be sure to keep in mind your local climate conditions.
> *SNIP*
> If you are still in the dead of winter with no chance for cleansing flights. I would NOT do this. (Give them protein supp)
> But in the Pacific Northwest our warm winter temps have jump started growth, whether we are ready or not.


Lauri, how much dry mix are your colonies going through in a given day? Roughly?
We have had a fairly warm winter (not nearly as warm as yours), but it's been highs in the upper-30s to low-40s for a couple weeks. Worried they are going to be protein starved before too long if they've started brood rearing. I don't think we'll have much natural pollen available until mid-March or so.


----------



## Lauri

I am open feeding about 25# a day, when temps are in the 60's, warm enough for really active flying. I still have a lot of overwinterng colonies in one location.
I could probably feed twice that amount, but I had been just trying to bridge a happy medium beween what they need and what they want until natural pollen kicks in. 
I am not doing it just to feed, I'm also doing it to keep them from being pesky to any neighbors. (Getting in their grain, sawdust piles, etc)

Early Brood rearing is underway, whether I like it or not. I didn't want to stimulate brood until pollen was available, but I don't want dry larva ether. With the winter long & early activity of the bees, I expect my foragers will have a shortened life and I will need that new brood to bridge the last couple months of *winter*

If it should turn cold again for a while, I'll have those young bees instead of a lot of older warn out bees. I'm OK with that.
That's the way I am looking at it anyway.

If is stays warm like it has been, I have a lot of overwintered queens and certainly could make up early nucs, but the _catch_ is, I need a new crop of capped queen cells or virgins to give those overwintered mating nucs something to carry on with. Can't do that without mature drones and favorable mating temps. 

Will my weather stay warm? I'll just have to wait and see. Have plan's A, B, C & D inorder


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## deknow

Solar greenhouse drying machine? I'd you skip the unloadang it is also a mobile feeder!


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## Ryan Williamson

Hey Deknow....now that's efficiency! Would you be willing to pick me up tomorrow at 3pm so I can leave my van at an outyard for the bees to feed? 
Actually they do swarm the van when I open the doors which is a bit of a problem as the little bugger's get stuck trying to get out the windshield that's facing south. Gotta be quick with the doors!


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## rweaver7777

I thought I would chime in here with what we did on our last patties a few weeks ago. We did a comparison of Lauri's standard recipe (with no sub), and with some added sub (3 cups for 25# sugar). We wanted to see if there was any difference in how the bees took the patties. We made Kent William's recipe last year and they didn't much care for them (with lots of sub).

We put both standard and sub patties on each of our hives, and the bees much prefer the sub patties over the standard patties. In fact one hive has eaten ALL the sub patties and hasn't started on the standard.

This is just FYI for what it's worth. We have lots of warmish days for bees to cleanse so we're not worried about dysentery.

RIck


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## casper_zip

Lauri:

You are one amazing woman. How could/would a fellow downsize this fine receipe ? I want to use 4# sacks of sugar, and add enough H20 and vinegar (A/C) a tblsp of Mann Lake bee Bee Pro. I will also put in a dash of the minerals like you use, and a dab of Kosher salt (in case in Jewish bees come to the hive). My lil joke, but I do add salt to the mix. Help me out on this if/when you can.


Love all your stuff on here, keep it coming.

Best,

casper_zip


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## rweaver7777

casper_zip said:


> How could/would a fellow downsize this fine receipe ? I want to use 4# sacks of sugar, and add enough H20 and vinegar (A/C) a tblsp of Mann Lake bee Bee Pro. I will also put in a dash of the minerals like you use, and a dab of Kosher salt (in case in Jewish bees come to the hive).


Casper... We actually did this with our experiment two posts above. In the kitchenaid mixer we used 3-4 pounds of sugar, 2/3 cup vinegar, tsp each of HBH and Amino-B, pinch of minerals, (I forgot how much Ascorbic acid), and 1/2 cup of megabee. They're eating it up...


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## beepro

I can see that one day we don't need to buy the commercial subs. anymore if
this thread keeps on improving by adding more good stuffs to the sugar blocks. Maybe adding some
real pollen to it too. Bee on improving!


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## kingd

I wanted to post an update,
I used Lauri's recipe and also put in some store bought winter patties, The bees go after Lauri's blocks but have not touched the patties.
They almost like the blocks a little too well


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## missybee

I made fondant, bought winter patties and made Lauri's recipe. The bees ignore the patties, ignore the fondant, inhale Lauri's. I put some of each in three hives. 

Two hives are eating it up, one hive is not bothering, they are staying in the mid box. Two days ago it was a toasty 43, two of the hives out buzzing around almost making enough noise to be a summer buzz. The one not eating the patties, staying in the hive, not bothering to fly out, but you sure can hear them when you tap the box, they must be happy with their home.


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## BlueRidgeBee

My bees love them too. It is such a great relief to me to be able to stick a block on if I'm worried about a hive. Or if we are having a long bitter cold spell in late winter, like now. 

I'm overwintering some nucs and one is too small. Didn't see them out flying the other day when other hives were. Opened it up, feeling bummed, but there they were, clinging under the sugar block and eating away. Don't know if they'll make it all the way through, but the block is a comfort to me. 

I use the recipe below (from earlier in this thread) with a 10lb bag of sugar and find it's just easier to massage the whole batch with my hands vs stirring with a spoon. The electrolytes and probiotics were from the packets sold for chicks at Tractor Supply. I also add a splash of honeybhealthy if I have it around. 

This last batch I didn't want to get the vinegar smell in the house with the oven (spouse was home, haha ). So I put parchment paper in the bottom of my dehydrator trays and the 1" thick cakes were fully hardened in the excalibur dehydrator in about 3 hrs at 130 (in the basement workshop). Remember to score the blocks *before* they harden so you can break them into shapes you want!

Copied recipe:



> I modified Lauri's basic recipe slightly, adjusting the amounts based on 10# of sugar (for hobbyists like me that don't need as many blocks):
> 
> 10 pounds sugar
> 1 Tablespoon citric acid
> 1/4 teaspoon elecytrolytes
> 3 capsules probiotics (available from your local health-food/whole-foods)
> 1 and 1/4 cups Apple Cider Vinegar
> 
> This filled 3 aluminum 8" x 12" x 1" trays, which dried very quickly in my Excalibur Dehydrator set to 130 F.
> 
> Admittedly, real Apple Cider Vinegar (with the Mother, not the ACV-flavored vinegars) contains probiotics; I just added some additional strains (based upon the suggestion by Noah Wilson-Rich).
> 
> Cheers,
> Tony P.


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## missybee

Since I am the wife, I get to stink up the house with vinegar! The oven on low works great. We just upgraded our kitchen, good winter project, added a convection oven, it will be interesting to see how it works with the blocks. I still have plenty to feed them this winter.


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## Walter Lawler

Just one quick observation, I got a dehydrator for Xmas. Was doing a lot of reading and the consensus is if you want to dry in the oven just leave the door cracked for ventilation. 
Walt


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## rweaver7777

Walter Lawler said:


> Just one quick observation, I got a dehydrator for Xmas. Was doing a lot of reading and the consensus is if you want to dry in the oven just leave the door cracked for ventilation.
> Walt


Our oven goes down to 170F and about 6 hours in there will do the trick. Our blocks are about 1.5 inches thick so it takes a while for the water to be removed. 170F will not do anything bad to the blocks.


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## missybee

I ran it at 170 for around 3 or so hours. Door slightly open, did the trick, but mine are around 3/4 inch.


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## Matt F

rweaver7777 said:


> Casper... We actually did this with our experiment two posts above. In the kitchenaid mixer we used 3-4 pounds of sugar, 2/3 cup vinegar, tsp each of HBH and Amino-B, pinch of minerals, (I forgot how much Ascorbic acid), and 1/2 cup of megabee. They're eating it up...


+1, this is the way I do it too, but no Amino, minerals, or megabee. Just 4# sugar, 3/4 cup apple cider vinegar, ad a teaspoon of honey be healthy. They're eating it up!

I was glad to put a new block on last weekend when it was 45 deg, because this weekend it's back down to single digits.


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## green2btree

My nucs are plowing through these as well. I also was glad that I popped some more in the warm day that I had about 2 weeks ago. Most of my full size hives haven't touched them, but they have plenty of honey reserves, and they haven't moved up to the top.

JC


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## FlowerPlanter

>I also add a splash of honeybhealthy
>dehydrator in about 3 hrs at 130 

>I ran it at 170 for around 3 or so hours

If you are pasteurizing your blocks your are probably killing the probiotics you just added. 

And if that didn't do it the EOs will.


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## Vance G

It is kind of funny what colonies are up to the top consuming supplemental feed. Last fall stayed warm and nice for a prolonged time and I got all the feeding done and more. About a third of my colonies and all the nucs but two are still down under the MC sugar I put on all my colonies. Some came up and consumed 12 pounds of MC sugar and the other 20 degree day were no where to be seen and I thought they were dead. When I started to pick them up to take them home it was apparent they were far from dead! They apparently relocated back to the bottom deep apparently during our prolonged warm period in January.


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## EastSideBuzz

EastSideBuzz said:


> I just picked up one of these to use to dehydrate.
> 
> View attachment 14665
> 
> http://www.hatcocorp.com/products/page/humidified-holding-cabinet-947
> 
> It will hold 7 full size trays and can go down to 120 degree's. Plus I can use it at Thanksgiving and Christmas to hold the food warmer. Muti purposed.


So my Oven has wheels and I thought it mobile until that Van. I have to unload my drying oven into buckets to take to the bee yard. He can just drive his to the bee yard and unload next to the hives. That is really taking it to a new level. Now I am waiting for the guy that will modify a school bus. 

I told my wife about the van and she pointed out that we used to keep the extractor at the foot of the bed so there are other "Odd beekeepers" out there. With 200-300 hives now the extractor wont fit in the bedroom any more.

Like Lauri we are having a mild winter in Western WA. I will be making Nuc's in a few weeks at the size of my hives. I am switching to heavy Syrup and bricks now so they don't starve. Swarm season is going to be really early this year. It is going to be a crazy ride this year.


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## ThisGuy

Lauri, I apologize if I just missed it in the previous posts somewhere...I was wondering what ever happened to that nuc you had with no stores and just sugar blocks for the winter?

Thanks! 
Jim


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## Daniel Y

I am not Lauri but I have multiple nucs that went into winter on nothing but sugar cakes and what not. We fed them sugar water at every opportunity through the winter as well. Of approx. 23 nucs that went into winter. 16 came out. the remainder either absconded or failed. It was very bad honey producing condition's here last year. forcing our single largest beekeeper to sell out. Even cut out I did had no honey and I mean none. Thus the reason to feed colonies with no stores. The colonies that where lost also tended to be very small. large colonies survived. In my opinion you can keep an adequately populated colony alive through the winter on sugar alone. How well they perform now? Well that is another subject. I will just say for the moment. it may not be worth the effort. And that is a maybe. they are trying I just don't know if they have enough in them to be ready for the flow. I have one hive that would be much stronger except it gets pounded with chalk brood. the only hive in my apiary that does that.


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## ThisGuy

Thanks for the insight, Daniel!


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## thehackleguy

Subscribing to this thread


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## Kathyk

I am a newbee with a top bar hive and want to make this for my hive. My hive is about 18x48. Do I make an entire 25 pound batch for one hive?


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## WesternWilson

KathyK, you still have time to feed the guns out of your top bar if it is light. They should also be raising winter bees, so giving them a pollen patty or few over the next month is also a good investment. Top bar frames should all have a cap of honey going into winter...sometimes they have trouble moving the cluster sideways.

You would not easily be able to put a 25 lb. brick on a top bar, although I have seen a setup where you set the sugar brick with a top bar set on its side in the pan, then shape the resulting sugar brick, once set, to look like a comb does hanging off the top bar itself. You then put that in the top bar as the winter emergency rations.


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## Kathyk

What do you mean by 'they should be raising winter bees'?


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## WesternWilson

Hey Kathy, this time of year the bees raise a crop of winter bees, bees who have a slightly different, winter appropriate physiology that makes them long lived and effective little heater units. From Randy Oliver's great series "Fat Bees":

_*Fat bees and wintering*

So the European honeybee, in adapting for the long winters of temperate climates, has figured out ways to store energy in the form of honey for the winter, and protein in the form of vitellogenin. This allowed the species to maintain a large social population year round, despite the vagaries of nectar and pollen flows. Amdam (2003) states: “the vitellogenin-to-jelly invention…made possible the establishment of a very simple and flexible ambient condition-driven mechanism for transforming a nurse bee into a bee with large enough protein and lipid stores to survive several months on honey only.” When broodrearing is curtailed in fall, the emerging workers tank up on pollen, and since they have no brood to feed, they store all that good food in their bodies, thus preparing themselves for a long life through the winter. These well-nourished, long-lived bees have been called “fat” bees (Sommerville 2005; Mussen 2007). Fat bees are chock-full of vitellogenin. Understanding the concept of fat bees is key to colony health, successful wintering, spring buildup, and honey production.

Indeed, one of the big differences between African and European bees is the degree of fatness. Back to Amdam again (2005b): “Our data indicate that European workers have a higher set-point concentration for vitellogenin compared to their African origin. Considered together with available life history information and physiological data, the results lend support to the view that “winter bees”, a longlived honey bee worker caste that survives winter in temperate regions, evolved through an increase in the worker bees’ capacity for vitellogenin accumulation.” Thus the African bees’ strategy of absconding and searching for new food resources, rather than hunkering down and waiting it out._


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## Kathyk

Thanks so much. I can never learn enough!


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## shinbone

snl said:


> I give, what am I missing? There a million posts (well almost) here on making, drying, adding, subtracting, equipment purchases and it goes on and on ........
> 
> It just seems like a TON of work. Is there really THAT big of advantage here in doing all this work vs just pouring some sugar on paper in the hive and misting it? Or are beekeepers just doing this to try something different than they were doing??


Lauri comes up with great ideas, and her sugar block recipe seems like a good one. I made it, and some hives liked it and some didn't touch it.

But, IMHO, a sugar block is an emergency measure, only, and a back-up emergency measure at that. Obviously honey is the best food for bees, and a beek should leave enough honey for the bees to winter on. If it was a bad year, or it is a split that never got going, or the beek decides to harvest the hive's winter stores (as commercial beeks typically do), etc., then the beek should feed sugar syrup to the hive in the Fall. Sugar syrup is the next best thing for a hive to winter on since it is easier for the bees to access and digest than sugar in a dry solid form at the top of the hive.

IF the doesn't have winter stores, and IF the beek screwed up and didn't feed sugar syrup in the Fall, _then_ a sugar block or plain granulated sugar makes sense.

This adding a sugar block as a matter of course is a manifestation of man's desire to always tinker with something with the arrogant idea that he can make it better than Nature made it.

JMHO


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## WesternWilson

I hear you Shinbone, and I know I fuss over my bees, which are really pets. But. I have found my overwintering stats have improved since I started leaving these emergency rations. IMHO the colonies are both more likely to survive, and more likely to be strong, very strong, in the spring. Strength in spring is a huge advantage if you have plans for the hive, ie. pollination, splits, honey crop. I agree that honey is the best food for them. The sugar just gives the colony wiggle room.

I do think that often, the bees do not access stores on the outside edges of the cluster. I almost always, even in hungry hives, find full frames of honey on the edges. I don't think in a Langstroth they find it easy to move sideways. Up, in the warm column of air of the cluster is easy. Sideways is not. So that sugar brick up on the top frames is almost always accessible, and in late winter/early spring, the bees are eager to eat it.

I have under 20 colonies of bees (shooting for 10-15!). For me, it is easy to put the sugar bricks on. They are cheap insurance against starvation, and particularly in Jan/Feb, when they are ramping up brood rearing, that sugar brick gives me peace of mind. If I peek in and it's almost gone, easy-peasy to pop another on. No chance of them starving in March before the Maples bloom, desperate to feed the brood.

Gives me peace of mind.


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## GarfieldBeek

Maybe I missed this somewhere, but how many hives will a 25 pound batch cover?


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## SeaCucumber

I'm new. I hope to avoid the need to feed in the future.

I'm trying cooked fondant. Here are some + and - with what I'm doing, and my concerns.

- Some of the sucrose is inverted.
- possibly easier to get a hard block
- Too much inversion, acid, or water creates softness. I'm trying to oversaturate the feed.
- high acid, heat, and fructose cause HMF (Hydroxymethylfurfural) (bad)
- I'll add more acid at a lower temperature.
- caramelization risk
- work

I'll add vitamin c and lemon juice at a lower temperature. I ran out of citric a., so I got a lemon.


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## WesternWilson

You know, I think all the fixes to the fondant recipe just create heartache. The bees can invert the sugar on their own, they do it all the time. Just make them fudgy blocks out of white sugar and water, keep it simple and you will get a nice texture the bees can use. It is more important to give them a source of emergency feed that to make it improved...watch and see, they will enjoy their simple sugar picnic.


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## Lauri

Because my forecast this winter is again to be unusually warm, I am using my lessons learned from last year to better prepare for higher winter bee activity, resulting shorter forager life and winter brood rearing. That includes topping these sugar blocks off with a thicker than usual layer of Dry Bee Pro. I'd say about 1/4" thick. As it soaks up the moisture it turns dark and then forms a crust as it dries.
Bees LOVE these fortified sugar blocks!




























That's 6-25# sacks of sugar mix drying on the aluminum baking sheets

I give one to any colony in a single because they don't have feed above them to move up to. Especially the smaller mating nucs I over winter. You just can't get enough stores into the center frames where the tiny cluster will reside. But they will live under the sugar block and thrive.
I'd like to give every colony one of these, but just can't make that many. Even though larger heavy colonies don't need them., they relish them like a dog with a big fat meaty bone.










You can see what's left of this block and how they consumed the BeePro topping. I don't want to _force_ them to eat protein, that's why it is a separate layer they can consume or not, depending on their needs.











Photos of bees flying is in December 2014 over a tub of dry Bee Pro. They had NEVER done this before. Their activity with the warm temps was shocking. I didn't want to stimulate brood rearing too early, but will supplement them fully this year if conditions are the same. Lots of lessons learned last year about unseasonably warm temps. Winter brood rearing also means winter mite rearing and without a good winter brood break, some larger hives that had been TF had issues come spring. I expected that and watched for it, and indeed it was exactly what I found.

While a large part of the country was in a deep freeze, I felt a bit embarrassed I was having slight difficulty with my California like weather. Their behavior was not like in previous years and I was a little unsure of exactly what to do. 
Feeling confident though for this year. Ready to use that behavior to my advantage if it again presents itself.

Another thing I changed going into winter this year is I did not insulate my hives for the first time.(Other than insulation in the lids) I want them to be cool and inactive as much as possible. Super Monster El-Nino off the coast is right at my back door in Western Washington State.
I only have a few colonies that are nuc size and can always insulate them later if a bitter snap is forecast.



















So whether you expect cold winter temps or warm, you can see the blocks appear to work well in all circumstances.


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## Colobee

GarfieldBeek said:


> Maybe I missed this somewhere, but how many hives will a 25 pound batch cover?


I was wondering the same thing. I see 8 pans of 6 blocks, from six 25# bags... 48/6= 8 blocks per 25 lb bag. (?)


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## Lauri

That's about right, depending on the thickness and size you cut them into. Theres abotut 18-20# of sugar in each full sized pan if slightly heaped and compressed
The pan with 6 rectangular size blocks are good for nucs and divided deeps. 










Cut into smaller sections for mini mating nucs. Pan on the left has set overnight and the Bee pro has absorbed some of the moisture. (This was last years pan)




















10 frame size box's I usually cut the pan into quarters. Here you can see one of last years blocks, not totally dry inside but good enough to place. Thinner frosting of Beepro than I am dusting them with this year.


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## BeeAttitudes

This is a great thread with a lot of information for a relatively new beekeeper like myself (less than a year of experience). Thanks to everyone for your contribution and especially to Lauri for sharing this recipe that has worked so well for her. I'm sure a lot of time and study went into developing this recipe.

A question. Honey normally has several different acids naturally including acetic acid (vinegar) in tiny ratios. So does anyone think that adding this much vinegar to a hive could raise the amount of acetic acid in the honey later produced from this hive enough to influence the taste and aroma of the honey? I ask as it may only take a small change in the acid profile to influence the taste/aroma.

If we think it's a possibility that the acid added to sugar blocks or syrup fed to the bees can influence the taste/aroma profile, then could we use this as a tool to influence the taste of our honey? Some acids give honey a buttery taste (for example).......so what if we added that acid to our sugar blocks and/or our syrup used for supplemental feeding? Maybe this topic is better suited for a different thread but at least the question asking if apple cider vinegar added to sugar blocks and/or syrup could influence the taste of subsequent honey produced from the hive is relevant.


----------



## camero7

I would only feed so that I didn't have sugar water honey in my supers. So, for me the answer is no.


----------



## Colobee

The UltraBee just arrived. Snow is in the local forecast, so my first batch of sugar blocks is too.

FYI, Cabelly's has: 

" Deluxe10-Tray Dehydrator offers of total of 1,703-sq.-in. of drying space... This 10-tray dehydrator...The specially designed fan and powerful 800-watt heating element team up to deliver constant temperatures and a heated airflow that eliminates the need for rack rotation. Built-in thermostat delivers precise control of the sturdy cabinet's temperature range – from 84°F to 160°F. Nonstick drip sheet at the bottom wipes clean.
14.5"H x 13"W x 18.5"D"

on sale for $110, down from $190, thru 11/8/15.

I'll be kludging something up out of existing smokers & dehydrators.


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## ChrisBex

Colobee said:


> The UltraBee just arrived. Snow is in the local forecast, so my first batch of sugar blocks is too.
> 
> FYI, Cabelly's has:
> 
> " Deluxe10-Tray Dehydrator offers of total of 1,703-sq.-in. of drying space... This 10-tray dehydrator...The specially designed fan and powerful 800-watt heating element team up to deliver constant temperatures and a heated airflow that eliminates the need for rack rotation. Built-in thermostat delivers precise control of the sturdy cabinet's temperature range – from 84°F to 160°F. Nonstick drip sheet at the bottom wipes clean.
> 14.5"H x 13"W x 18.5"D"
> 
> on sale for $110, down from $190, thru 11/8/15.
> 
> I'll be kludging something up out of existing smokers & dehydrators.


http://www.cabelas.com/product/cabela-s-deluxe-10-tray-dehydrator/1920898.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Ddehydrator%26x%3D10%26y%3D6%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%252BProducts&Ntt=dehydrator


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## Rusty Hills Farm

BeeAttitudes said:


> This is a great thread with a lot of information for a relatively new beekeeper like myself (less than a year of experience). Thanks to everyone for your contribution and especially to Lauri for sharing this recipe that has worked so well for her. I'm sure a lot of time and study went into developing this recipe.
> 
> A question. Honey normally has several different acids naturally including acetic acid (vinegar) in tiny ratios. So does anyone think that adding this much vinegar to a hive could raise the amount of acetic acid in the honey later produced from this hive enough to influence the taste and aroma of the honey? I ask as it may only take a small change in the acid profile to influence the taste/aroma.
> 
> If we think it's a possibility that the acid added to sugar blocks or syrup fed to the bees can influence the taste/aroma profile, then could we use this as a tool to influence the taste of our honey? Some acids give honey a buttery taste (for example).......so what if we added that acid to our sugar blocks and/or our syrup used for supplemental feeding? Maybe this topic is better suited for a different thread but at least the question asking if apple cider vinegar added to sugar blocks and/or syrup could influence the taste of subsequent honey produced from the hive is relevant.


Interesting concern BUT your honey should not contain any sugar from syrup or sugar blocks. By the time you are adding honey supers, these items should be long gone from your hives. Otherwise you would be selling adulterated honey--a BIG no-no.

Personally the feeders always come off before the supers go on so I am absolutely certain I am selling PURE honey.

JMO

Rusty


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## beestudent

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> Interesting concern BUT your honey should not contain any sugar from syrup or sugar blocks. By the time you are adding honey supers, these items should be long gone from your hives. Otherwise you would be selling adulterated honey--a BIG no-no.
> 
> Personally the feeders always come off before the supers go on so I am absolutely certain I am selling PURE honey.
> 
> JMO
> 
> Rusty


The only reason I could see feeding after adding supers would be to draw them out.


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## biggraham610

beestudent said:


> The only reason I could see feeding after adding supers would be to draw them out.


They will store as they draw. I only use stimulative feeding for comb drawing AFTER my honey is off. G


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## Lauri

_*" I have never used " sugar bricks " before. Can someone tell me why they are a good idea and how you use them ?"*_

Winter sugar feed, whether dry or in various forms like sugar blocks, candy boards or fondant, never take the place of good winter hive prep late summer and early fall.

But sometimes hives are overlooked, are in a less than optimal shape for health or queen reasons that were rectified late in the season, or the colonies are too small (Such as over wintered mating nucs) to get enough feed into them to last the entire winter.

Once it gets too cold for liquid feeding methods, dry methods are your last resort..or just good insurance if you are unsure.

In my case, I also use the sugar blocks on any colony that is over wintering in a single. Even if they have good weight, they still can benefit from supplemental feed directly above the cluster and in spring, directly above the brood nest until natural feed sources start to produce if the colony has enough foragers to leave the developing brood nest to collect in cool spring weather.

Solid Blocks are easy and quick to slip in on top the frames and hard for bees to haul out, if they were so inclined to try before they decided they needed them. That makes them more convenient to install when the weather is pleasant for the beekeeper.











2015 November pics below of a moderate nuc colony


















January-Feb photos below. My temps are typically in the 30's-low 40's this time of year. Mid Feb is about the time of year in my climate I'll give them a good scoop of my protein mix along with the last scraps of the sugar block. By the start of the maple flow, this over wintered nuc will be over flowing with bees and ready for another deep:










Below: 2 queen hive-divided deep with mini frames










There's some debate about the use & safety of cider vinegar. All I know it the recipe I posted works great for me and I feel the vinegar is an important part of that. By making the block more nutritious, more acidic and more appealing so they actually consume the slow and steady and fairly concentrated supplementation. 

I don't use the blocks to control condensation, I usually have my ventilation adjusted correctly to handle that.(Besides, it's usually the larger colonies that will have condensation issues and they don't require sugar or blocks)
But some condensation from the colony is actually _necessary_ for them to access the block. Something folks generally consider a problem, yet you can use condensation to your advantage. 

My bees relish them and even the small colonies come out of winter in fine shape. Small enough colonies going into winter I seriously doubt the would have survived otherwise.



















I have very few winter losses and good steady spring build up. I never lose a colony from starvation. Out of over 200 over wintered hives, I'll generally have 4 or 5 come out of winter queenless, but will catch them early enough to give them another queen. I'll find one or two that are just gone with full hives of honey-I assume they were queenless late fall/early winter and faded away. There's always a few early spring that are limping along I have to baby a bit, but that's usually it for losses.

If cider vinegar was detrimental to bees, I believe I'd be seeing it by now after 5 years of use.

The original recipe can be altered to use less liquid if you find the blocks don't harden as fast as you would like. I've tried it with less, but found them to be too crumbly. 
Perhaps the brand of sugar matters and likely your humidity level as well. Just alter it slightly until they come out satisfactory.


I just adjusted the recipe as I developed it, to see how far I could push it. 

I was surprised that the strongest version was the one they preferred the most. So that's the one I stuck with. Didn't have to back it off at all. 

But of course you can change the recipe to eliminate or reduce the amount of vinegar or other ingredients if it makes you more comfortable. Some posters here have done that already. It's worked for some, not worked so well for others. 



Do some trials and and see for yourself.


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## JasonA

Lauri have you had any robbing issues due to the acv in the blocks? I have 2 nucs, 5/5 and a single 5 in between 2 10 frame double deeps. I was going to put sugar blocks on the nucs but not the 10 frame deeps as they are full of honey. Temps are going to be 29 here tonight but back to the high 50s and low 60s.


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## Lauri

JasonA said:


> Lauri have you had any robbing issues due to the acv in the blocks?


Never, But I don't put them on until the colonies are fairly inactive. I also don't have Italians here and don't have real robbing issues to speak of, no matter what time of year.


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## camero7

Like Lauri I don't put sugar blocks on until about now... but there are remnants there in the spring and no robbing has ever happened. I really don't worry about that. Even weak nucs are fine with the sugar blocks if I stick one on the the summer when making up nucs.


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## shelly0312

Freshman BeeKeep here. So I did do a lot of cramming reading whenever I had a moment this summer. Now I wish I'd bookmarked more. Didn't I read one of those thesis papers suggested not too long ago for reading in these forums: that said soy protein and corn syrups are not good for bees?? And how about the "cooking " thing to make these candy boards--when making the 1:1 symple syrup the instructions are pretty emphatic NOT to cook the surgar--it makes it indigestable for the bees...... seems like a lot of conflicting information on some of these real basic items. "lets stir the pot a little more...."


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## Maddy

Shelly, don't feel alone in your confusion - Yes, between all the nomenclature and techniques, it can seem conflicting and contradictory at times.
But, part of it is our misperceptions regarding some terms and processes...Thank god for all the members here to help us better understand and make sense of it all!

Here is someone who mass produces sugar bricks. He heats his sugar to 242 degrees.
http://www.mdasplitter.com/sugarbricks.php

From the HoneyBeeSuite.com site, Rusty (The same one as 'our' Rusty?) States:


> Sugar that becomes scorched or burnt is not good for bees. But the act of boiling syrup doesn’t make the sugar toxic. For example, bees are routinely fed hard candy, which is made by boiling sugar syrup until it reaches a very high temperature–usually 234 to as much as 266 degrees F. This long boiling time drives off the water and causes the syrup to turn into a solid. Solid sugar is much better for winter feeding than syrup.
> On the other hand high-fructose corn syrup, when heated only slightly, produces a toxic substance called hydroxymethylfurfural. HFCS should never be heated or even stored in warm places.


From http://www.feedbee.com/product/soy.html


> Soy products contain protein inhibiting enzymes that restrains digestion and absorption of certain proteins in the digestive tract of honeybees.
> Soy products contain toxic sugars e.g. Stachyose and Raffinose which are lethal to bees.
> Feeding soy products to starving colonies encourage the queen to lay eggs but the brood will not reach maturity and will die in early ages due to adverse effects of protein inhibiting enzymes & toxic sugars in soy products.


So my confusion is right there with you...

~M


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## Lauri

Remember folks, the *original post* is a _*NO COOK *_recipe.

Protein (In the form of commercially produced dry Bee Pro) is *Not* mixed into the brick, but is sifted on top so you don't force you bees to consume solids when they are not rearing brood or cannot get out for cleansing flights.

When given a choice, the bees will take up the appropriate type of feed depending on their needs at the time. After years of use, I have never observed this block or the protein topping to stimulate brood rearing out of season. But when they do rear brood, it is available to support their nutritional needs.

If you change the recipe, heat it or cook it, it will be a totally different product that I show here.


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## shelly0312

ohhhh, maddy--you did good. you saved those bookmarks. Thank-you so much for refreshing my memory and clearing up a couple of questions. I surely appreciate your very specific replies and in fact this whole discussion. So cold candy boards and blocks it will be??!!! And Lauri--I have been following your advise--you post very clear and concise information that a beginner like myself really needs (unfortunately, no close by mentor). Thank-you all!


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## Lauri

Thanks Shelly.
I've been beekeeping long enough now to have to have good practical experience, but not so long that I have not forgotten how hard it was in the beginning.
Not just from inexperience, but (good and bad) information overload. You have to sort through it and use your best judgement. 
A lot of folks posted helpful hints that I really appreciated. I'm just doing my part to help when I can.


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## Juhani Lunden

Maddy said:


> Here is someone who mass produces sugar bricks. He heats his sugar to 242 degrees.
> http://www.mdasplitter.com/sugarbricks.php


 Do not boil sugar solution for bees, it becomes toxic. I have a friend who boiled old winter sugar solution, it was the idea to make this old solution more "clean". He lost all his hives that winter, nearly 100 hives.


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## BobL

Are the probiotics really that beneficial ?
I have one hive short on stores from a late swarm and thought I would make bricks for all colony's all just for insurance.
I'm a little nervous going in to the first winter


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## camero7

Based on my personal experience and that of another beekeeper, I would not use probiotics. However, there are none in Lauri's recipe and that's what I use.


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## Dave Burrup

There was a study released recently that showed probiotic use increasing the severity of nosema.


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## BobL

Thanks!
I'll pass on the probiotic.


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## Lauri

I leave plenty of naturally collected feed stores and do not treat with antibiotics or fumagillin. 

In my case I see no need to add probios.


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## BobL

Thanks Lauri !


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## BeeTeach

I've used Lauri's recipe since it was first posted and have adapted the recipe for small batches. I've also added mineral salt. It works well for me. I stack them in boot boxes to take them to the yard. I've learned that they will break up if I have them in the back of the truck when bouncing through the roads and fields to the yards so I put them on the floor of the cab.

My version:

8# sugar
6 ounces of cider vinegar
½- 1 teaspoon vitamins & electrolytes from TSC packet
3 drops LG essential oil
1 teaspoon mineral salt (also from TSC)

Makes 2 large sheet pans. Tap in place then gently roll out. Cut into 4 bricks each. Dry in the oven, keeping the temperature around 150 degrees.


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## kevindsingleton

Lauri said:


> 2015 November pics below of a moderate nuc colony


Those two pics look like you just dropped the sugar brick on top of the ladies! No wonder it's a "moderate" nuc colony!


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## Lauri

kevindsingleton said:


> Those two pics look like you just dropped the sugar brick on top of the ladies! No wonder it's a "moderate" nuc colony!


I have a lot of single 8 frame deeps I use as mating nucs most of the season. I leave the last round of queens in them and let them grow to overwinter.

Bees get out of the way of the block just fine as long as I give them a second or blow on them. There's enough bits of burr comb on top the frames to hold the block up just a bit.

Here's a plastic sheet I use on singles to keep them from building up too much on top the frames. (Especially if I need to use a feed shim to feed protein patties in fall.) Keeps their collection and storage efforts on completing those _outside frames_. This is what that colony in the post above looked like before I exposed them & added the sugar block.










That sheet is actually a food grade 'cutting board' from the dollar store. comes in a 2 pack and is the perfect size for laying across the top bars of singles to keep them from making a mess when they are still drawing wax. 

https://deals.dollartree.com/Flexible-Cutting-Mats-11x14-/p328956/index.pro

Here's two colonies the same age and size. One with the sheet and one without. 










Now if the sheet is left on until late fall, you'll get some wax built, but there'll be no honey stored in it. The feed has been stored on the frame where it belongs. You can scrape off the wax if it is excessive (Like this one was) without taking away winter feed.











Here's a typical single built up with wax and honey and empty end frames.










SO far, no matter how full the hive got, the bees have never made a mess on top the mat.


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## kevindsingleton

I like the cutting board idea.


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## Lauri

kevindsingleton said:


> I like the cutting board idea.


It's like a mini crown board, but you can use your inner cover with a top entrance.

They always start building in the center so that's really all you have to cover. Works great. I just left a couple on until late fall to see what they'd so. The little pillers you see are not really for building up, but to make room for the bees to congregate on top the frames but under the sheet.

This is usually the results. Just a bit of wax and bees below on the frames.










Totally eliminates this if you are using a feeding shim for fat patties










Photo is 4-26-15..Maple










Best way to avoid this is to slap another box on top before they do this. Sometimes it just isn't an option at the time. A mat on top the frames can buy you some time.


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## enjambres

Lauri -

The plastic sheet thing is a very useful idea! 

I'll ante in with another: if you do get pieces or chunks of stray comb with honey in it during the course of working your bees, simply put them into one of those shallow plastic trays that hold microwaveable dinners (after washing the tray, of course.) Set the tray with comb directly on top of the top bars (or on top of the inner cover, if you use them) and the bees will relocate all honey and pollen very quickly, leaving clean wax for re-melting. I keep a stack of these plastic trays on hand whenever I am in a hive and routinely dump in all the comb pieces that I scrape off the tops of bars. Keeps the bees' own resources in their hive. I think they also recycle some of the new wax and propolis, as well.

Enj.



Enj.


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## poppy1

Just wanted to say 'Thanks" Lauri for the recipe, easy as pie. My bricks were mixed exactly to specifications and placed in my warm basement with a fan on them and they were literally hard and ready to be placed on hives in 48 hours. Placing them in the next few days and sitting back and waiting on spring now, of course with the occasional peek to see how the stores are holding up


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## jhinshaw

Lauri, if the dry Bee Pro melted on top of the sugar bricks when I put them in the oven, does that denature the proteins or otherwise make it unhealthy or no longer beneficial for the bees?


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## rniles

BeeTeach said:


> I've used Lauri's recipe since it was first posted and have adapted the recipe for small batches. I've also added mineral salt. ...
> 
> Makes 2 large sheet pans. Tap in place then gently roll out. Cut into 4 bricks each. Dry in the oven, keeping the temperature around 150 degrees.


Quick Q: About how long in the oven?


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## Quince

I read the first 5 post pages hopping to find the answer and I decided to move to the last page. Sorry if my question is a repeat. Anyhow, the question is how and where to store the bricks. Mine are hard enough to kill with, but it may still have some humidity. I started using plastic wrap and I stopped; better ask. Wrapped, with what, out in the open or in the fridge, any shelf life to consider,…..?
Thank you for everything. Posts and pictures are a beauty.


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## camero7

I've stored extras for a year in a cardboard box, used them the next with no problems.


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## Meadcrafter

I have read many post, not all but a lot, so please forgive me if this has already been covered.

I am getting my first bees in March, four packages. Will this be a good "tonic" to feed the newly installed packages?


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## Colobee

MC - They would slow the "uptake", so syrup _might_ be a better bet for a package. Too much syrup can lead to back filling, so bricks _should_ remedy that. First bees, started on foundation, would probably benefit more from a slug of syrup, followed by bricks as they get going. I believe Lauri uses them on all manner of small colonies (nucs). Store them in a plastic storage tote.


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## Lady Devana

*How many trays will this recipe make?*

Can you tell me how many large trays of sugar cakes Lauri's sugar black recipe will make? It's hard to determine this by her pictures. I only have 2 hives. Also, if I have extra sugar cakes is there a certain way they need to be stored? Thanks I am trying to make these today since I can't give them syrup any more. Too cold outside...


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## camero7

*Re: How many trays will this recipe make?*

Depends on the thickness. I make about 6 sugar blocks from this recipe...any leftovers I just store in a cardboard box, off the floor of my shop and use the next year. They keep pretty much forever if you don't get them wet.


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## Lady Devana

*Re: How many trays will this recipe make?*

Thanks for your reply )

I cut he recipe down to 1/4. That made one large cookie that has edges. I have it on the lowest heat 170 degrees in my gas oven. Not sure how long to leave it in. How is it supposed to look or feel when it is done??? )


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## adson

*Re: How many trays will this recipe make?*

I only set the oven to 120 , after it warms up to 120 I turn it off, 
just doing that 3 or 4 times seems to be all it needs 
( i make small bricks not a whole sheet )
too hot and you will melt the sugar


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## NewbeeInNH

*Re: How many trays will this recipe make?*

Yeah, don't cook it. Once you get the over heated to 170, just turn it off, and then set them in there for a couple hours to get hard.


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## Lady Devana

*Re: How many trays will this recipe make?*

Unfortunately my stove is gas and will only go down to 170 degrees. It's been in the oven for a while Now I just need to know what this sugar is supposed to look and feel like when done. In one of Lauri's posts I think I read to put it in the oven on low heat for a few hrs but that's all I got.


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## NewbeeInNH

*Re: How many trays will this recipe make?*

Yeah, turn the oven to 170 and when it reaches 170, turn it off because you don't want to cook the sugar cakes, you just need to dry them out. When they're done they'll look just the same as when you put them in, only they'll be a hardened slab. You're basically just drying all the humidity out of them. You can press them with your finger when done, and your finger shouldn't sink in. So, nice and hard like a brick.


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## WesternWilson

*Re: How many trays will this recipe make?*

There is an alternate no-cook approach, the Krabby Patties:
http://www.lincolnlandbeekeepers.com/blog---around-the-hive/are-your-bees-craving-krabby-patties

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=...3SUJByoJiYlmW03_Q&sig2=YiHblv59l1HQ11HTFpH8FA


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## Artur_M

*Re: How many trays will this recipe make?*

Happy Thanksgiving!!!

After reading and watching lots of youtube, I came up with the recipe that I thought will be the easiest for me.

Here what I did:
1. I put 1 cup of hot water in the bucket
2. Added 2 tbs apple cider vinegar and 2 drops of lemon grass essential oil
3. Added 10 cups of sugar in total: add 2 cups at the time and kept mixing until I got homogenous mix.
4. Put mix in a 9x13x2 foil cake pan (I put parchment paper at the bottom), evened it up using a rolling pin and a tall glass.
5. Sprinkled a little more water (10ml) on the top (I believe this is optional)
6. Put in the oven and brought temperature to 200F (about 3 min) and let it stay in the oven 'till morning.

I believe this is the most easiest way to make it.
I'll be happy to hear any comments about this approach.

Thanks

PS: does anyone have any youtube videos how do you make your brick ?


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## Fivej

herbcoop said:


> Shinbone my first came out real bad then I tried again and this one came out perfect
> 
> 1 bag 4 pound of sugar from walmart
> 1/3 cup of bragg vinegar
> 4 teaspoon bee pro
> 1/4 teaspoon of the electrolytes
> 
> Mix real good, I used a cookie sheet pan and laid parchment paper down and I spread the mixture on the parchment paper and lightly rolled it out with a rolling pin. I used my pizza cutter to cut 6 blocks. I have a dial oven so I put a meat thermometer in to make sure it was around 170 degrees and then baked for 2 hours and checked. I then left it in the pan on a cooling rack until the next morning then stored them in air tight container


Just wanted to update this which I think is the original Laurie's Sugar Brick recipe thread. I only have 2 hives, so used the above reduced recipe using 4lbs of sugar and it came out perfect. DO NOT COOK THE SUGAR. I just let it dry on the dining room table and it was rock hard in 3 days. No need for parchment paper either. It will pop right out of the cookie sheet if dry. Also, for you folks who are using a 5lb recipe, do you realize that bags of sugar are 4 lbs, not 5? They used to be 5 lbs, but that was a long time ago.


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## jonsl

I can still buy 5 lb sugar in my area at Shoprite.


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## Fivej

My wife says she can't remember the last time a bag of sugar was 5lbs. We must be getting ripped off up here!


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## jonsl

Fivej said:


> My wife says she can't remember the last time bags of sugar was 5lbs. We must be getting ripped off up here!


Can only find them in the store brand. Everyone else has gone to 4 lb. Just like everything else, 5 oz tuna from 6, 5 oz yogurt from 6, etc. It's very annoying.


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## Lauri

Still using the fortified sugar blocks. Same exact recipe. Coming out a long, colder than normal winter in great shape.

Night time temps in the mid-high 20's, day time mid to high 40's. Looking forward to some warmer weather soon! Not all hives are at the same stage, but the more active ones will get me started with plenty of queen rearing resources when weather permits. I usually start grafting the first week in April if weather is normal.






























There will be fewer surprises this spring after using my thermal imaging FLIR ONE. There is a learning curve to reading the images correctly. I'll write something up about that at some point. 
Many colonies low in the hives with lots of honey overhead.




























Some hives with really black queens not showing the white hot broodnest heat, but have large populations. Queens look good, swelling up. I assume they have a little more Carniolan influence than others and are waiting for natural feed sources to kick in. Only hives that are light, in single deeps or I want to build up early have a sugar block. Most hives do not because I don't want to make that many and I don't want them all at the same stage at once.

That imaging allowed me to catch colonies that were high in the hives early on, so I could slip in a sugar block to hold them until temps allowed some reconfiguration of honey frames.


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## Daniel Y

Lauri said:


> Some hives with really black queens not showing the white hot broodnest heat
> QUOTE]
> 
> Only because I consider these images extremely misleading. That "White Hot" (which it is not anywhere near) is all of 28.5 degrees F. Hardly white hot, hardly warm and well below freezing. For most looking at the pretty colors they would think. Oh look how warm and cozy it is in there. and I think the use of phrases such as White Hot are disturbingly inaccurate.
> Look at the right edge of the photo it has a scale this photo is registering between 21.2 and 28.5 degrees. Is it warmer than that inside the cluster? if not those bees are probably dead. but then this is not a photo of inside the cluster. it is a photo of the hive box. Hate to say it but IR is not X-Ray.


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## missybee

I love your sugar blocks, we are having a warmer winter than normal, 70's. bouncing all over the place. I have had to feed a few of the hives blocks threes times since January. I think they are fine and the blocks are gone when we check two weeks later. 
They are out flying constantly and have been most of the winter. 

All the hives still have capped honey. We have a ton of brood going on, two of the hives are brooding in the top hive box. Four of the hives look like spring is here. Solid frames of brood.


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## Lauri

Although this is a thread about sugar blocks, I'll talk a little about the heat imaging. 



Daniel Y said:


> I think the use of phrases such as White Hot are disturbingly inaccurate.


 I use the term 'white hot' to describe the _color_ difference indicator between the center of what appears to be the broodnest or at least the colony's cluster and the outer edges. Not talking about molten steel here, just the temp differences of bugs in a wood box.

I've found the unit to be extremely useful and accurate, although as I said, there is a fair learning curve to reading the images correctly. I won't muddy up this thread with those lengthy details like reflective readings, different box color heat absorption during daytime hours, etc..

Just like the condensation pattern on my foam insulation. Just an _indicator_ to the colony's size and location. 
After using both methods, I've found in the majority of cases they were both, while not perfect, quite accurate.




















Below is an example of what I was talking about.

This hive had a 2014 breeder queen still heading the hive last time I saw her late summer. The imaging showed me the colony was at the top of the hive late January.

Indeed, when I got a chance to inspect myself, it was as shown, disk marked queen still heading the hive with a good start to a broodnest but mostly in the top box. 
Although the hive was very heavy, due to my last season's bad weather a majority of the honey & fall feed was stored below. By hefting the weight alone I would never have considered this hive needed adjustment this early.

I removed the bottom box, lowered the colony onto the bottom deep and topped with the collected honey and drawn frames + feeder.
Here it is in early Feb. I slipped them a sugar block to hold them over until I could get into them and make adjustments. There is an empty 1 1/2 gallon pro feeder in the top on the left side:










And after reconfiguration, late Feb photo:










Now the wisdom of pushing a queen going into her fourth season this early in spring is debatable, but this hive is in far better shape than it would have been if overlooked for weeks or even a couple months.

No matter how poorly my non technical language is of the imaging color, I don't think anyone can argue it isn't an invaluable tool for late winter, non invasive 'inspections'. Including catching queenless colonies before it is too late to help them out by ether requeening or combining. When I get a day with warm enough temps to open a few hives, I know _exactly_ which hives I need to go to first without going through 200 hives, without wasting time and that rare few hours I can actually look for myself and rectify interior frame location if needed.

Finding dead outs early too has been a real advantage. Not only to collect and redistribute those resources to other needy or growing hives, but to get a jump on springtime work so I don't get so swamped with work when weather clears. Anything I can do now keeps me ahead of the game later on.

Dead out mating nuc under a foot of snow in foreground, others in good shape behind it










My pony is still alive, although her head registers 38.7 degrees F.

You'll also notice, because I don't have my FLIR ONE temperature settings adjusted, the hives behind her look like all dead outs. As it is set, my imaging focuses on the hottest area and shows lesser areas at a distance much cooler than they really are. I'm not techie so I am not sure how to set it correctly. That mares temperature is about 100 degrees. 





















Turkeys are still alive too. Looks like they are heating the cluster, not the entire hive


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## shinbone

Great photos from Lauri, as usual. A thermal imager is the next big ticket item on my want list.


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## Daniel Y

Lauri said:


> .
> 
> I've found the unit to be extremely useful and accurate, although as I said, there is a fair learning curve to reading the images correctly. I won't muddy up this thread with those lengthy details like reflective readings, different box color heat absorption during daytime hours, etc..


There would be no need for you to make extra effort to muddy up such information. it is muddy enough as is. I understand how you intend to use the term white hot. I am saying it is misleading. I have seen this images used in such a way time and time again. Such as claims that bees het the hive. if so they are doing a very poor job of it. They did not manage to keep that one above freezing. BUt as I said. people will look at the pretty colors and think Oh my they really do keep it toasty in there.


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## shinbone

I don't think the thermal images are misleading. They show, through color differences, that the bees are generating heat, and therefore, still alive. You can also tell where in the hive box the cluster is. This is all very useful info that can be obtained in winter when the hive can't be opened. The image also shows temperature read out, so the actual temp of the surface of the hive is clear. We are talking about wood boxes sitting out in the snow, so "white hot" is obviously just a euphemism.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Daniel Y said:


> I am saying it is misleading. I have seen this images used in such a way time and time again. Such as claims that bees het the hive. if so they are doing a very poor job of it. They did not manage to keep that one above freezing.


Of course bees *DO* "heat" the hive! 

Heating the 'hive' is a byproduct of bees heating the cluster. And the bees heat the cluster by vibrating their wing muscles and essentially converting sugar/honey/carbohydrates into heat. 

The actual temperature of the cluster varies, with the center the hottest, and the outside of the cluster at a lower temperature. The air inside the hive surrounding the cluster is colder than the cluster, but still warmer than the air outside the hive. Portions of hive body itself may not be above freezing, but it is still being heated above ambient temperature.

This is not exactly new, groundbreaking research, this information has been available for many decades! For instance, a USDA study from 1950:
http://beesource.com/resources/usda/the-thermology-of-wintering-honey-bee-colonies/

One of the graphics from that study shows internal temperatures ...








_FIGURE 2. - Temperature readings (º F.) and brood and bee location one comb west of center of cluster at outside temperature of 7º.
_

Of course, online graphics display capabilities have changed somewhat since the 1950s, but the message is clear - *bees DO heat the hive* to some degree. 

And for more discussion on 'heating the hive', see this earlier thread: :lookout:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?304642-Bees-Only-Heat-the-Cluster-Not-the-Hive


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## Lauri

Hey, no worries.
That's why I post photos, so folks can see what I am talking about more easily and to come to their own conclusions. 

If you don't like the FLIR ONE, don't buy one. 
I'm OK with that.


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## Lauri

And my horse's white head?









Well actually....


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## Geno

Lauri, Thanks for being Lauri. Always trying to help folks understand what goes on inside a bee hive.

Being involved with thermography for many years, predictive maintenance program where I worked, your images were well done and the term "white hot" is a relative term... Especially on a honeybee forum. Thanks again for all you do.


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## warmbees

Thanks Lauri, very helpful as usual. Keep up the good work and very positive presence. You are an artist both in beekeeping and forum ethics! I for one, absolutely appreciate your pioneering spirit and genuine interest in advancing current knowledge and techniques, and being willing to share what you learn in creative ways, in spite of inevitable detractors. Feel free to continue deviating from the "NORM" and sharing your results! Your continued success is helping the cause, and many of us are taking note and benefitting from your efforts! Ren :thumbsup:

PS. Are you using insulation on 3 sides? Your pictures obviously have insulation on both sides, but can't tell for sure on back. The blue insulation that I have been using doesn't show the frost pattern like your foil covered insulation, or at least not as easily. I may change to the foil covered for future purchases.


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## Bee Draggle

Lauri, The last batch I made of your recipe didn't harden very well but I may have done something wrong. Nevertheless, I put the mixture on top of the inner cover around the inner cover hole and the bees are all over it now. So that got me to thinking that making it into a hard block is really not always necessary. So my concern is, can the raw mixture harm the bees it it doesn't go through the hardening and curing process?


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## enjambres

I'm not Lauri, but I think I can answer your question:

No, an unhardened mixture will not harm the bees. Many people just put loose granulated sugar on top of newspaper placed on top of the uppermost frames and feed the bees that way.

Of slightly more concern, however, is placing the feed on top of the inner cover and not directly above the bees. It's probably is not an issue in TN because you are warmer and much farther along than I am here in northern NY, but food that the bees must go fetch is less useful to them in cold weather than food directly on the frames (either as hard, self-supporting bricks, or on newspaper as described above). In the future, when faced with un-hardened bricks, I would just put a piece of ordinary wax paper down on the tops of the frames and set the mixture on top of that. That way the bees can access it even in the coldest weather. Perhaps on the next round you could do that?

My bees adore these bricks.

Nancy


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## Fivej

Bee Draggle: Did you attempt to heat the sugar bricks? From what I have read here, that seems to be the major cause of non-hardening bricks, unless you messed with the recipe. I leave them out at room temp and they are rock hard in a day or two. J


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## mgolden

Am 99.99% there is no requirement for curing and hardening. Bricks are a convenience for the beekeeper. Also minimal time to insert in colder temps. Likely less lost sugar. In cold climates, bricks need to go directly on the frames. In my experience, the cluster did not go up through a 3 1/2 inch round hole with 20 lbs of sugar bordering the hole but above the inner cover.

Last spring, a member of bee club installed a package on blank foundation and then it snowed and turned cold. Syrup was too cold for bees to take. She didn't want to move the hive into a garage, so suggested she put a wool blanket around the hive. Hive was out of the wind. I told the lady to make up a sugar brick recipe and place it on newspaper directly on top of the frames. Saw her in the fall and package did well. Wet slush provided enough carbs to get the bees through and did no harm to my knowledge.


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## missybee

I cover the top of the hive with sugar blocks in November, I put them on top of a queen excluder. 
This year, on a few of the hives, I have added blocks x three. The bees are inhaling them. 

Need a warmish non raining day to do a quick inspection. So far all are alive, with a slight tap can hear them buzzing along.


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## Fivej

Missybee, I am curious why you put the blocks on top of a queen excluder. I am not saying its wrong, but it makes it harder for the bees I would think, although apparently not much of an issue if they are devouring them. J


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## floydboy1

I made sugar blocks two weeks ago today. I used 2/3 cup apple cider vinegar to 8# sugar with about 1 teaspoon citric acid. This all fit in a 8X12 cookie sheet and was about 1 1/4" thick. It made three nice sized blocks. I air dried in the dining room. Was hard in a week.

Couple things I think is important to mention. Mix a little vinegar in at a time. If you pour in a lot it tends to dissolve a lot of sugar. I tried to keep it the texture of snow as is mentioned elsewhere in this thread. As I spooned it in the pan I compressed it with a rolling pin as much as I could. I think this aids in it hardening into a block that won't break. I did spinkle some Bee Pro on top. I lightly spritzed it with water to set the bee pro to the sugar. I also put plastic wrap in bottom of pan to aid it lifting out in one piece. Mine all came out in one piece and the bees were grateful. I added Lauri's pollen sub with the blocks. They were all over it also. 

Getting very close to time for them to start brooding up. Temps to be in the high sixties here Wednesday and Thursday before cooling back off.

I only have three hives all started as nucs last year that I plan on making my increase with this year so want to start them early and keep them well fed. They were no where near running out of stores yet. Sleeping much better with the added insurance.

Thanks,,,,Lauri


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## cbay

I make them using half the vinegar, rest water to the exact amount in the recipe. After being in the oven on low for a couple hours i take them out and they dry good enough to use the next day. They are soft coming out of the oven but harden up well overnight.


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## missybee

Fivej said:


> Missybee, I am curious why you put the blocks on top of a queen excluder. I am not saying its wrong, but it makes it harder for the bees I would think, although apparently not much of an issue if they are devouring them. J


I had them crumble one year, lots of chucks, the excluder keeps the chunks from falling down into the frames, probably nothing to worry about, but just what I do. The bees do not seem to have an issue. I just added more blocks today. The blocks were covered with bees, they were not to happy with me bothering them. I am glad I put on a veil and gloves.

I slide them in real slow, the bees run down under the excluder so they don't get squished.


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## Delia Seeberg

Lauri, I recently was referred to your sugar blocks recipe, and we're going to give it a try this year since our hive is low in honey stores. Is your recipe for one tray of sugar blocks? We only have one hive at the moment. 

Thanks!
Delia


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## JasonA

if you only have one hive use a 4 lb bag of sure with 1/3 cup of apple cider vinegar. That's what I use. Put it in a 11x13 aluminum pan or something similar to dry.


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## Delia Seeberg

Thanks so much, Jason!


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## minz

I would recommend doing it on a piece of parchment paper and after the top gets hard dump it out. The bottom will be soft and it will set up better on two sides. I also like to score the sugar with a knife so you can break it to strips to get the sugar back over the cluster when they eat out the center.


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## Delia Seeberg

Excellent idea!


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## Bear Creek Steve

Here's a look at my girls last winter working on Lauri's recipe bricks.


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## FLGibsonJr

Do you use the Sugar Blocks in place of Sugar Fondant?


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## JasonA

FLGibsonJr said:


> Do you use the Sugar Blocks in place of Sugar Fondant?


Yes. It's much easier to make and the bees seem to take it when they need it. Helps some with moisture also. If you have extra blocks left over, you can use them in syrup in the spring. No storing and no waste.


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## FLGibsonJr

JasonA said:


> Yes. It's much easier to make and the bees seem to take it when they need it. Helps some with moisture also. If you have extra blocks left over, you can use them in syrup in the spring. No storing and no waste.


Thanks for the reply! I am going to try it!


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## My-smokepole

I make them part of the candy board with hardwarecloth. What they don't eat this year I will add new mix to the candy next fall


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## dixiebooks

Quince said:


> I read the first 5 post pages hopping to find the answer and I decided to move to the last page. Sorry if my question is a repeat. Anyhow, the question is how and where to store the bricks. Mine are hard enough to kill with, but it may still have some humidity. I started using plastic wrap and I stopped; better ask. Wrapped, with what, out in the open or in the fridge, any shelf life to consider,…..?
> Thank you for everything. Posts and pictures are a beauty.


I put mine in Ziploc airtight storage totes. I like to put them in a box first with a sheet of paper (packing paper and the like) between each brick. The boxes will then go into the tote. -james


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## VickyLynn

I keep mine in a white plastic bucket with a lid on top. They keep indefinitely.


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## Fivej

I just keep them in a cardboard box in the garage. It can get humid here in the summer and they stay rock hard. No problem with ants, maybe due to the vinegar? So, I would say just store them in a way where ants and other pests won't get into them. J


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## dixiebooks

Fivej said:


> I just keep them in a cardboard box in the garage. It can get humid here in the summer and they stay rock hard. No problem with ants, maybe due to the vinegar? So, I would say just store them in a way where ants and other pests won't get into them. J


my problem early on was mice getting in them. I also have an ant problem, though I don't recall if they got into the sugar bricks. Anyway, when i went to the sealable totes the mouse problem was solved. -james


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## Lady Devana

dixiebooks said:


> I put mine in Ziploc airtight storage totes. I like to put them in a box first with a sheet of paper (packing paper and the like) between each brick. The boxes will then go into the tote. -james


Hi

I store mine in a plastic storage bin with the lid on. A bin that does not have any openings for air and clamps shut. I put wax paper in the bottom then in between each layer of sugar bricks then on top of last row. That keeps them nice and solid. You can store them in the house or in a garage. I wouldn't recommend anyplace that is high humidity like in a shed or garage with no heat. I do the same with cookies at Christmas with the wax paper and a metal tin container. They last forever and don't get stale. That's how my German Mom did it and it worked.


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## dixiebooks

Lady Devana said:


> Hi
> 
> I store mine in a plastic storage bin with the lid on. A bin that does not have any openings for air and clamps shut. I put wax paper in the bottom then in between each layer of sugar bricks then on top of last row. That keeps them nice and solid. You can store them in the house or in a garage. I wouldn't recommend anyplace that is high humidity like in a shed or garage with no heat. I do the same with cookies at Christmas with the wax paper and a metal tin container. They last forever and don't get stale. That's how my German Mom did it and it worked.


Bless your heart. A German mom. Me, too. LOL Maybe that's why we store ours the same way. The ziploc totes are airtight. -james


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## Beeman1554

I pulled the remains of sugar blocks off my hives yesterday and switched to sugar syrup. My question is can I reuse the blocks next winter? Can I mix them with next year's batch and if so how do I do that since they are rock solid? It seems like a shame to simply throw away the uneaten pieces of blocks.


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## mcon672

If you're feeding syrup just use them for that. Otherwise I have kept them sealed in a plastic bag in a chest freezer (may not be necessary) and used them the next year with no issue.


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## Beeman1554

Thanks, but I don't understand your comment: If you are feeding syrup just use them for that. Do you mean re-liquify them?


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## mcon672

Yes any I have left when I do use them get turned into syrup for nucs .


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## Beeman1554

Break them into tiny pieces, first? Just put them in the feeder and add syrup, like an ice cube?


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## Beeman1554

Is there a water-to-brick formula to re-liquify? I'm sorry I'm being a little dense today.


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