# Photos of larvae at the "right stage



## IBJake

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone has any decent quality photos of eggs and larvae they might like to share at before, just right, and too late. I found choosing the "right stage" to be my least favourite part of the process last year, and haven't found any good comparison photos.

Thanks

Jake


----------



## bean tree homestead

just pick the smallest larva you can find in the nest...your making it harder then it needs to be.


----------



## rookie2531

Yes. The larvae will be right up against the eggs, section.


----------



## j.kuder

and a fresh hatched larva is smaller than a egg. look for just a tiny spit of royal jelly and you can slice the face of the comb back to make it easier to see and work


----------



## Tenbears

IBJake said:


> Hi,
> 
> I was wondering if anyone has any decent quality photos of eggs and larvae they might like to share at before, just right, and too late. I found choosing the "right stage" to be my least favourite part of the process last year, and haven't found any good comparison photos.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Jake


 FOR WHAT? We all are assuming you are talking grafting. But you could be referring to sushi for all we know as the post is extremely vague.

As a rule the newest larva will be next to eggs with progressively older larva toward the center.


----------



## Michael Bush

I like to see a drop of royal jelly with an imperfection on the surface...


----------



## j.kuder

maybe Lauri Miller has some good photos


----------



## fieldsofnaturalhoney

IBJake said:


> Hi, I was wondering if anyone has any decent quality photos of eggs and larvae they might like to share at before, just right, and too late. I found choosing the "right stage" to be my least favourite part of the process last year, and haven't found any good comparison photos.
> Thanks Jake


David does,, scroll down http://doorgarden.com/2011/11/07/simple-honey-bee-queen-rearing-for-beginners/


----------



## ChuckReburn

Michael Bush said:


> I like to see a drop of royal jelly with an imperfection on the surface...


As I was told - "graft the larvae you can't see."


----------



## IBJake

Thanks for the replies, I guess my question was a bit vague. I'm just starting to get my plans together to start grafting, I'd like to produce 15-20 queens as early as possible here. I still should have a week or so to dither and plan but it has suddenly turned summery here. I had a first time go at grafting last year and struggled with telling the difference between the eggs and larvae. I thought I'd try to select a few from each end of the spectrum and see which worked best, however I must have picked a little too late and one hatched early and wiped most of the rest out. I did find it a lot easier grafting the later ones as you could see definition, but from everything I've read that is not ideal. Thanks a lot for the link to the doorgarden, that is the best write up along with the attached links I have seen. It seems very similar to the Randy Oliver "queens for pennies" I tried last year. I guess if you are grafting the "drop of royal jelly with an imperfection at the surface" you are relying on your experience that it is working, and will be something that comes with time. I thought I had seen a set of fairly close up pictures that show the daily progression of eggs through larvae, but I can't find them now.


----------



## Michael Palmer




----------



## Stephenpbird

IBJake said:


> I did find it a lot easier grafting the later ones as you could see definition,


I bought a pair of +3 reading glasses and that "drop of royal jelly with an imperfection at the surface" magically becomes larvae for grafting, even if you have good eyesight some form of magnification will help a great deal.


----------



## Lauri

Here's a photo of larva right next to eggs that is too old. That is not a dependable way to judge age or suitable grafting stock.


----------



## davel

Don't feel bad about your question...obviously you are talking about grafting as this is the queen rearing forum. It amazes me how some people can be such jerks when answering a question. If it bothers you that bad that you have to be a jerk and belittle someone then don't answer the question! Go outside and get stung by your bees instead!


----------



## deknow

This is just about perfect for grafting...I always look for them to look 'thready' rather than 'chubby'.










...on this one, the egg is in the upper left, the larva on the upper right is perfect...the rest are older than I would use.


----------



## deknow

...and this is getting the grafting tool under the larva:


----------



## deknow

Michael Palmer said:


>


Mike, great photo....I had good luck coloring in the back of the plectrum (I know you like those technical terms) with a dark blue or black sharpie...helps the larva stand out better in a photo.


----------



## davel

Great post deknow!


----------



## deknow

This one shows the shell in the process of dissolving....chicken or egg?


----------



## hex0rz

Wow, this is cool!

I think it'd be really cool to look at an egg under a microscope and watch cell divisions, etc.


----------



## Harley Craig

Deknow Those are AMAZING pics.


----------



## Lauri

Amazing.


----------



## beepro

On the last larva pic I cannot tell the difference on 
which way it shed the shell off. Is it from the top down or
from the bottom up? My guess would be from the bottom up since
the bottom is brighter (more clear) in body sections of the larva.
So which way that it shed its shell?


----------



## Daznz

Great photos guys that was very helpful


----------



## Arnie

Spectacular photos, Deknow! Very helpful.


----------



## kilocharlie

If you put the breeder queen into a Pritchard box at 7 AM on Day 8, the larvae will be exactly the right age at 3 PM on Day 11 (Grafting Day). This reduces (almost elliminates) the chance of a queen "hatching early" because you grafted one too big, and killing all your queen cells.

(In this case *Day Zero is when you prime the Cell Builder with 8 to 10 imported combs of capped brood* and REMOVE EVERY QUEEN CELL IN THE CELL BUILDER HIVE.)

Pritchard Box: 

Wooden ends and bottom, queen excluder sides so the workers can come and go, tight fitting top that the Breeder Queen *CANNOT* get out of. It gets up to 3 combs that fit inside it - usually a bit shorter than the normal frames if the Pritchard Box fits inside the hive. You can even use a Jay Smith frame to really limit her egg laying. 

Note: the combs for the Breeder Queen to lay in can be drawn on black plastic foundation, making grafting a lot easier. The larvae really show up better against the black background.


----------



## Arnie

Where does one acquire a Pritchard box?


----------



## IBJake

Thanks for all the photos they are excellent, exactly what I was hoping for. I think I will trap the breeder queen for at least the first go around though, I'd like to see and know the timing is right. Should make it easier to choose correctly on subsequent attempts.


----------



## beepro

I think I saw the Pritchard box on ebay.
A white plastic cage acting like a QE on all sides that will fit either
a 2 or 3 frame in it. Why not just use a QE cut to fit the
box for the 1 or 3 frame divider? I can see a 3x5" queen introductory
cage with a QE on secured to the empty cell comb.


----------



## Michael Bush

It would be hard to beat the age of the one in MP's photo.


----------



## David LaFerney

I know that the conventional wisdom is that smaller/younger is better for grafting, but I wonder if this is based on any *real* science? According to some sources worker and queen larvae are all fed the royal jelly diet for up to 3 days. I can't see any great reason for grafting larvae that are that old but the slightly larger ones are considerably easier for me to use, and I don't see any quantifiable difference in the resulting queens. Admittedly not science. 

I'd be willing to bet that commercially produced queens are not all grafted from the youngest possible stock.

Those are some great pictures btw - thanks.


----------



## deknow

David, a few thoughts on your post.

1. I tend to agree with your questioning the conventional wisdom. I know of one breeder who bucks convention by only using a couple of queens to graft from for the season, and he grafts from older larvae than the norm. His mating nucs are in flight distance of 1000 of his best hives, so the idea of using just a few good queens with a huge drone diversity makes some sense. I tend to think that, if in his circumstances (which may unique in important and unknown ways), using older larvae were problematic, he would notice it.

2. I think the younger larvae are probably more robust for handling, and that may be a difference.

3. In contrast to what I wrote above, I think the large producers (I've seen slide shows from Miksa) all use carefully timed confining of queens, and use very young larvae. I also think that (based in part on the Miksa photos), those doing hundreds a day every day are using more traditional grafting tools, not the chinese one. ..I'd make the analogy of doing CAD (computer aided design)....if you do a little of it, you use the mouse a lot....if you do a lot of it, you use keyboard shortcuts (which are more clunky to learn but faster to use). Once you are timing the eggs, getting them at a young age is just as easy as getting them when older.

4. I graft from the youngest larvae I can, but I'm not sure it is necessary (it may be more resilient to mechanical manipulation, temp, and environment disruption). I've also been doing most of my queen cell planting 48 hours after grafting (before cell is capped).


----------



## deknow

I just tend to graft from well fed larvae that don't yet look 'chubby'.


----------



## deknow

Another observation that might be useful to others.

I purchased a large magnifier (mounted to the table with an articulating arm) with a ring of LED's for lighting.

The reflection of the individual LED's in the pool of jelly resembles the slightly segmented body of the young larvae (at least to my eyes). Probably a diffuser of some kind would help with this problem, but I found it very hard to see what was going on.


----------



## AstroBee

David LaFerney said:


> I know that the conventional wisdom is that smaller/younger is better for grafting, but I wonder if this is based on any *real* science?


Not sure if you consider this real science, but it may be worth a quick scan.

http://www.apiservices.com/articles/us/grafting.htm

I totally agree that 2 or 3 day old are far easier, but no one ever said this should be easy  

I target the absolutely smallest larvae possible. I'm jealous of those who claim that the Chinese tool is so easy, but after trying numerous times, over many years, I've totally given up on that tool. What I've found is that if you want to lift 2-3 day old with the Chinese tool it is pretty easy, but REALLY small larvae I find it very awkward and wind up wasting many. I find two things very helpful: 1) get the grafting frame well-fed in a cell builder 1 day prior to grafting, and 2) use the JZ-BZ tool. I really like the rigidity of the tool the ability to really scrape the bottom of the cells if needed. It also provides good feedback to your fingers when touch something, which is not the case with the Chinese tool. At the end of the day, use the tool that works for you, but try several before you decide the best. I've also heard that not all Chinese tools are equal, but I have about a dozen and they all stink. I got to conclude that it’s just the operator...


----------



## Michael Palmer

deknow said:


> ...and this is getting the grafting tool under the larva:


I would prefer to see you pick up the larva from the convex side and not the concave side.


----------



## deknow

I understand having a preference. In my own experience I haven't noticed a difference. If I were to really think about it, I could probably come up with some good (sounding) reasons for doing it either way.

Pretty much no matter what I do, if I graft it onto a microscope slide and look at how it is doing, it seems unperturbed, and is just an eating machine.

I also don't do a whole lot of grafting, and I never confine the queen to have known age larvae to work with. ....if I were doing more of it, I would probably want to be more systematic in both areas.

If you find one direction better than another, is it from flubbed grafts that you know aren't right (and redo immediately), or something that you notice at a later stage?


----------



## David LaFerney

AstroBee said:


> Not sure if you consider this real science, but it may be worth a quick scan.
> 
> http://www.apiservices.com/articles/us/grafting.htm
> 
> I totally agree that 2 or 3 day old are far easier, but no one ever said this should be easy
> 
> I target the absolutely smallest larvae possible. I'm jealous of those who claim that the Chinese tool is so easy, but after trying numerous times, over many years, I've totally given up on that tool. What I've found is that if you want to lift 2-3 day old with the Chinese tool it is pretty easy, but REALLY small larvae I find it very awkward and wind up wasting many. I find two things very helpful: 1) get the grafting frame well-fed in a cell builder 1 day prior to grafting, and 2) use the JZ-BZ tool. I really like the rigidity of the tool the ability to really scrape the bottom of the cells if needed. It also provides good feedback to your fingers when touch something, which is not the case with the Chinese tool. At the end of the day, use the tool that works for you, but try several before you decide the best. I've also heard that not all Chinese tools are equal, but I have about a dozen and they all stink. I got to conclude that it’s just the operator...


I didn't say that I use older larva, only that it's easier and I can't see any quantifiable difference when I have. I'm subject to the conventional wisdom too.  I use a JZBZs tool as well, or a German SS tool - never could get a Chinese tool to work like it should. I usually put the grafting material frame in the cell builder a day or two before I graft and then feed it to get it all juicy, and I cut down the cells, and use an optivisor, etc, etc...

Interesting study, and it does seem to show measurable physical differences between younger and older larva. I would be more interested in actual performance differences though.

Here's the thing - that study shows very small differences between 1-2 day old larva - I don't think we are talking about even 1 day old larva when we are trying to use the very youngest possible ones for grafting - more like a few hours old. Check out this picture...










How much difference in age do you think that there is between the "just right" and the "too old" larva? I'm gonna say that all of the eggs on that side of that frame were laid within a 24 hour period - probably more like a 12 hour period. Those "just right" larva hatched within the last 3-4 hours I bet, and the "too old ones" are less than 8 hours old. I'm basing those guesses completely on my observation that a queen can lay up both sides of a medium frame in less than 24 hours when I give her a frame of comb that she likes in the right area of the brood nest. So the bigger easier to graft larva that I'm talking about are only a few hours - not days - old.

I think that when we look at a frame of brood like that and the older ones look SO different than the younger ones that we aren't grasping the fact that they are only a few hours apart. Am I wrong about this? Are the big larva in the picture much older than the unhatched eggs? That would mean that the queen went back and forth in the hive for some reason wouldn't it? 

I'd really like to see an hour by hour comparison images or time lapse video from hatching to 3 days old - or even 1 day old.


----------



## Richard Cryberg

Here is a link with pics of larva at different ages after egg laying:

http://www.coloss.org/beebook/I/misc-methods/2/5/4

I would judge the too old larva to be roughly 24 hours older than the right age larva in the post above.

That said I have read a lot of conflicting opinions on how young larva really need to be. Some people claim a 24 hour old larva is every bit as good as a two hour old larva. I have no real opinion personally as I try and use larva sized like those labeled right age. I may well be making extra work for myself. It is a lot easier to graft them as they get a bit bigger. I also do not think it would be all that easy to do a study and determine the differences between queens raised from these two sizes. You might well not see any differences until the queen is a year or more old. I suspect you would need to do side by side comparison of maybe 25 queens from each size larva to get real reliable data and that is a lot of resources that most of us are not going to dedicate.


----------



## squarepeg

nice link there dick, many thanks. 

i plodded through a round of grafts today selecting the smallest larvae i could find. judging by the coloss photos i would say they were between just hatched and 1st instar.

i discarded about 1 in 5 or so because i couldn't see the larvae well enough to be sure about it once i had it on the tool.


----------



## Brad Bee

This is a great thread.

Deknow, are you using the Hubble telescope to take pictures with? Those photos are amazing.

I also thought it was interesting to see that Michael Palmer and myself obviously use the same manicurist.


----------



## rniles

Stephenpbird said:


> I bought a pair of +3 reading glasses and that "drop of royal jelly with an imperfection at the surface" magically becomes larvae for grafting, even if you have good eyesight some form of magnification will help a great deal.


+ 4.5 reading glasses and a 250 lumen headlamp - now I can only see things a foot away from my face - but I can see just hatched larvae beautifully!


----------



## deknow

I have a hard time with reading glasses...they are ok when looking at the thing up close , bit I get seasick if I look up from my work.

This isn't helping as I try to get used to wearing bifocals for all the time seeing.


----------



## beepro

That means you have to find the right pair of glasses to wear.
A well adjusted pair of lenses will not do that to your eyes or head.
Maybe a LED miner's light and a magnifying glass will help you see the larvae better.
I can only see things up close so the tiny one day old larvae is perfect for me. I use an
ear wax removal small metal scoop tool to scoop out the young larvae. Nothing can be more
simpler than that.


----------



## kilocharlie

I thought I had invented the "queen jail", as I used to call it, but Pritchard invented the Pritchard box many years before I did.

Mine is a different design than his, but it is a very practical design. It fits into a normal hive, and it rests on the rabbet ledges with pieces of angle iron or aluminum that are screwed onto the box. 

*Arnie* - To make a Pritchard box, proceed as follows:

Rip a 36" long piece of 3/4" pine 4 3/8" wide (Attaching the QE material on the sides makes it 4 1/2" total - taking up the space of 3 standard frames + 4 beespaces). IF it is to fit in a 9 11/16" deep brood box, make the 2 ends 7 1/4" x 4 3/8". Cut 3/8" wide x 5/8" deep rabbet ledges for the frames to hang in the top end of each end piece (they face inwards when you assemble the box). Make the bottom 17 7/8" x 4 3/8". 

Cut rabbet joints to connect the 3 pieces of the box together, glue and staple. Cut a plastic queen excluder into 2 pieces 7 1/2" x 17 7/8" to be the long sides of the box. If you have a pneumatic stapler, it should attach the QE to the box with ease, but small nails work too.

Now cut 2 pieces of angle iron or aluminum to hang the Pritchard box in the bee hive box. Locate them and mark them with a pencil, drill them and countersink them for flat head screws, and mount them.

Make a tight-fitting lid. I use very thin (1/8" or 3/16" thick) aircraft birch plywood with an L-shaped band of thin sheet metal notched and bent to fit around the outside of the cage. I attached this with tiny brads that I had to pre-drill...I think pop rivets would have been better.

The frames are custom made to fit inside the box. They are standard depth (6 1/4" deep) for medium Illinois supers, but a little bit shorter than regular frames so that they fit in the Pritchard box.

In order to draw out the combs in these - and they have worker cell foundation - I attach them to a stick that is 19" x 1 1/4" x 3/4" thick (standard frame top bar) with 2 screws, so that the attached bar holds the frame in a regular deep box while the bees draw the foundation into comb. For quick identification, I paint these sticks pink. Don't leave them in too long - they might get filled with honey. We want them freshly drawn but empty for the breeder queen to lay her eggs in.

I recommend a queen rearing beekeeper to make 3 of these as a minimum so that if a queen does not lay eggs in one Pritchard box, another breeder in another box will likely have the right age larvae so you can proceed on schedule.

It is really only a convenience so that you don't have to look all over the yard for a frame with the right age larvae. I can pull it from the breeder's hive, place it in an empty nuc', take it over to the grafting tent, and return it at my convenience. It also helps limit the number of eggs that a breeder queen lays, so you can possibly extend her service life.

*David* - I do not recall professor Laidlaw citing any specific study in his books, but he clearly had known of quite a lot of work regarding larva age vs. queen quality and acceptance / later supercedure of queens. 

Older larvae that have been fed worker food and then grafted into queen cell cups do not develop as many ovarioles as the youngest larvae fed a steady diet of royal jelly. I find that at 80 hours, there are usually some the right age and floating in a small puddle of RJ. 

If there are studies, I suspect it was Dr. Otto Mackinsen, Dr. John Eckert, or Dr. Harry Laidlaw that was involved - probably done back in the 1940's or '50's. It may have even been known prior to that - possibly Jay Smith or Gilbert Doolittle. Michael Bush will possibly know whom.


----------



## Outdoor N8

This thread has been perfect in it's timing.

"A series of experiments recently carried out at Erlangen, Germany, confirmed our own findings. While the larvae can even be a little older than 18 hours, we time them to be no more than 12 hours when the grafting is performed." Brother Adam, p.91 _Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey_.


----------



## virginiawolf

This has been a very informative post. When I was first introduced to grafting I was encouraged to graft the smallest larvae that I could. My success was not that great. I was getting used to the tools but I was mangling some of the larvae. As I tried it a few more times I became more in tune with grafting the larvae that had a little more royal jelly. We take a warm moist towel and keep it over the frame so that the larvae doesn't dry out during the grafting process. My next attempts using slightly larger larvae like in the photos provided with the royal jelly puddle gave me much better results. I was encouraged to use the Chinese tool and I got a fairly good hang of it with a little practice. I like having the German tool on hand as well sometimes to get the larvae off of the Chinese tool. It was helpful for me sometimes to break some of the wax away under the larvae that I was trying to scoop up. I should graft some this year. It is very satisfying to see the queen cells on the cell bar. I'm looking forward to the upcoming warmer weather.


----------



## David LaFerney

Btw - Virginiawolf took the excellent picture which I cited in comment #38.


----------



## deknow

Putting the donor frame in the cell builder for a couple hours really helps. I've never used a warm towel.

I had one student who practiced in the fall and got his grafting down and timed out. He emailed me in the spring...he had been graftjng, and the queens didn't emerge when they should....turns out he was getting better and grafting younger larvae....I told him to give them an extra day, and they came out fine.


----------



## jean-marc

Is there a supplier of a Pritchard box/frame?

Jean-Marc


----------



## squarepeg

deknow said:


> Putting the donor frame in the cell builder for a couple hours really helps.


i like this idea dean and plan to try it on this week's round.

the biggest problem with harvesting those just hatched larvae is that there's not enough jelly to easily float them onto the tool, and it may help them last better prior to getting put back into the builder and getting fed again.


----------



## Arnie

Kilocharlie, thanks so much for the detailed instructions on Pritchard box. I really appreciate the time you took.


----------



## kilocharlie

By putting the tent right next to the Cell Builder colony and using DeKnow's trick (placing the donor frame in the CB for a few hours before grafting), you almost don't need the Pritchard box. Just start looking for the donor frame early.

The Pritchard box is still useful for isolating the breeder queen for 3 days, however (Oldtimer's bent QE does the same task), and the portability of it (pulled from the breeder's hive and moved in a nuc' box) keeps the feeding continuous for even more minutes while transporting a frame, though this is getting to an arbitrarily small benefit, unless transporting a long way.

*Jean-Marc* - I don't know of one. It is a very, very small market, and was a PITA to make until someone figured out using plastic QE's instead of metal. I made my first one in about 3 hours: P box; lid; 3 frames; 3 pink sticks. The following year, I realized the need for more than one Pritchard box, and made 2 of them and 6 frames in about 1 hour.

Also note - The egg does not always dissolve the chorion (egg shell) right at 3 days - some become larvae at 3 1/4 to 3 1/2 days. If 80 hours still sees only eggs, put the frame back into the hive for another hour or 2. 

I'm certainly in agreement with Brother Adam - 12 hours after chorion dissolving is my outer limit for grafting (I have never used larvae older than 86 hours since isolating a queen on empty comb)


----------



## beepro

I don't know if it is the same name.
On ebay I saw the 2 or 3 frame plastic cage that
is made out of the QE. Believe it is for isolating the
queen while in transport.


----------



## Michael Palmer

There are other ways to isolate a breeder queen so young larvae can harvested for grafting. I graft 192 larvae every four days from May 20 until July 15, using four cell builders. I have a number of breeder queens I use for grafting stock. Making a Pritchard cage, or some other type queen isolator, for each queen, is too much. 

I use a standard size hive body with a vertical queen excluder to create two chambers...one with six combs and one with three. The queen is isolated in the three comb chamber. Every four days I remove a comb from the bees' chamber, move the remaining combs away from the excluder, and move the oldest comb of brood to the far side of the excluder. A new dark grafting comb is added to the queen's chamber...against the excluder. This comb is the only comb that has empty cells for the queen to lay. Five days later I graft from that comb. Much easier for me than fiddling about with isolation cages.


----------



## deknow

squarepeg said:


> i like this idea dean and plan to try it on this week's round.
> 
> the biggest problem with harvesting those just hatched larvae is that there's not enough jelly to easily float them onto the tool, and it may help them last better prior to getting put back into the builder and getting fed again.


I started doing this following a discussion on bee-l...it was randy oliver's contribution.


----------



## squarepeg

deknow said:


> I started doing this following a discussion on bee-l...it was randy oliver's contribution.


understood dean, it's nice that you make the acknowledgement. it's bound to make a difference and i'm looking forward to giving it a try.


----------



## deknow

....it also forces you to evaluate the proper donor frame and get a feel for the inside of the cell starter as a separate task from doing the grafting.


----------



## AstroBee

squarepeg said:


> understood dean, it's nice that you make the acknowledgement. it's bound to make a difference and i'm looking forward to giving it a try.



Its also covered on David's website: http://doorgarden.com/2011/11/07/simple-honey-bee-queen-rearing-for-beginners/


----------



## Flyer Jim

Michael Palmer said:


> There are other ways to isolate a breeder queen so young larvae can harvested for grafting. I graft 192 larvae every four days from May 20 until July 15, using four cell builders. I have a number of breeder queens I use for grafting stock. Making a Pritchard cage, or some other type queen isolator, for each queen, is too much.
> 
> I use a standard size hive body with a vertical queen excluder to create two chambers...one with six combs and one with three. The queen is isolated in the three comb chamber. Every four days I remove a comb from the bees' chamber, move the remaining combs away from the excluder, and move the oldest comb of brood to the far side of the excluder. A new dark grafting comb is added to the queen's chamber...against the excluder. This comb is the only comb that has empty cells for the queen to lay. Five days later I graft from that comb. Much easier for me than fiddling about with isolation cages.


Mike is right :thumbsup:
This is the best way that I have found. tried the Pritchard insert( page 58 Queeb rearing and bee breeding,Harry H. Laidlar Jr and Robert E, Page Jr,) didn't work as well.
4 breeder queens , graft 1 frame from each queen every 4 days, a Pritchard insert for each one would be too much,


----------



## squarepeg

counting grafting day as 'day 1', today is day 9. the cells were brought in to the incubator 2 days ago. as of this morning, i can see that most of the jelly at the top of the cells is gone, and the tips are getting that 'papery' look to them.

are these good signs that i have developing pupae in those cells at this time? i am not able to see anything discernible with candling yet, perhaps it is too early for that.


----------



## Daniel Y

Tenbears said:


> FOR WHAT? We all are assuming you are talking grafting. But you could be referring to sushi for all we know as the post is extremely vague.
> 
> As a rule the newest larva will be next to eggs with progressively older larva toward the center.


When confused it is best to remain silent. often the fog clears when you do that. I didn't have a moment of confusion over the question and obviously a lot of other people did not either.


----------



## Flyer Jim

squarepeg said:


> counting grafting day as 'day 1', today is day 9. the cells were brought in to the incubator 2 days ago. as of this morning, i can see that most of the jelly at the top of the cells is gone, and the tips are getting that 'papery' look to them.
> 
> are these good signs that i have developing pupae in those cells at this time? i am not able to see anything discernible with candling yet, perhaps it is too early for that.



My guess, your cells will hatch Sun afternoon. :scratch: maybe sooner.....maybe later. :s


----------



## squarepeg

did the second round of grafts for the season today and tried the little trick of putting the donor frame(s) in the builder for a few hours before grafting. big difference. lots more jelly with the larvae and the grafting went noticably easier. many thanks contributors for the great suggestion!!


----------



## kaizen

squarepeg said:


> counting grafting day as 'day 1', today is day 9. the cells were brought in to the incubator 2 days ago. as of this morning, i can see that most of the jelly at the top of the cells is gone, and the tips are getting that 'papery' look to them.
> 
> are these good signs that i have developing pupae in those cells at this time? i am not able to see anything discernible with candling yet, perhaps it is too early for that.


I'm contemplating a small incubator. How are they put in? hanging like on the bar? how are they all separated and contained?


----------



## squarepeg

they are held in roller cages:


View attachment 23987



it just so happened that the rack that came with the reptipro 6000 held the roller cages perfectly.

after the cells are capped, they are taken off of the cell bar and put into the cages.


----------



## Daniel Y

I use JZ BZ cups. To move cells to the incubator they are removed from the frames bar and set cell down into 20ml lab bottles. As far as small incubators. I have one that is only about 1 cubic foot of interior space. it will still hold around 100 queen cells. I plan to figure out how to place roller cages over the JZ BZ cups eventually. I also use the JZ BZ queen cages so a method to have the queen emerge directly into the cage would be nice.


----------



## kaizen

ok I see where i'm going off track. I bought protectors which would be used in a finishing box after the cell is all drawn out right? so with the hair roller cage she can only come out the bottom. 
I have a smaller apiary and at my house at this point only one nuc so thinking with the lack of resources to make booming finishing colonies the incubator is a better option? i'm also a little anxious about trying to set up 15 queen castles which would involve moving frames from my outyard back to the house yard. with them in the incubator I would have some time after hatching to organize all of this correct? How quickly is it ideal to have them into a castle to get mated? any downside to waiting a week?


----------



## squarepeg

kaizen said:


> I have a smaller apiary and at my house at this point only one nuc so thinking with the lack of resources to make booming finishing colonies the incubator is a better option?


no. a strong (lots of nurse bees) starter and/or finisher is required to get good cells. the incubator only allows you to have some place to put the cells once they are capped when you need to make room for the next batch, and/or if it is more convenient than going back into the hive when the time comes to harvest the cells.

find the page on mike bush's website that talks about making 'a few good queens'. some of those options might be more suitable for what you are doing.


----------



## Outdoor N8

It's difficult to get a good photo with an auto focus


----------

