# Moving Bees in the Winter?? Any thoughts...



## Autonomy Acres (Sep 3, 2012)

I have run into a significant problem concerning my bees. One of my neighbors is very ticked off with me because one of their small dogs was stung about 2-3 weeks ago on a cleansing flight. I am in St. Paul, MN where it has been incredibly cold and checking in on them today they are still alive. It is going to warm up again by Sunday, most likely warm enough for them to get out for a bit. I know I cannot move them to a new yard right now, but how about 40 feet away. I have a spot that should hold them temporarily, out of sight from my neighbors, with enough obstacles to keep the bees away from their dogs. 

I have a place I can move them permanently, but not until it is much warmer. I have been told it will take them atleast three to four days to recluster, so I am looking for about 35-40 degrees before making the big move. Moving them 40 or so feet should be doable, but I have a few concerns. Assuming we don't drop or jiggle the hive to much in transit, do you think they will remain clustered? They have been out once, about 3 weeks ago, will moving them 40 feet confuse them the next time they are out, or will enough new bees be making their first winter flight and just assume they are where they always have been? I will post more questions or concerns as they come to me, I hope to move them tomorrow, or early Sunday morning....


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Dogs always snap at wasps, bumblebees, and bees. How is it your fault if dogs don't know any better..?


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## Crsswift70 (Sep 9, 2013)

Can't you just partially block their entrance with something and force them to re-orient themselves?


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I am in upstate NY. I had to move my bees long after the forage season was over.

I made the move on Dec. 6th, and _so far_ it has been OK, with a couple of caveats:

It's been so extremely cold that my bees have not yet had a day when they wanted to fly in any numbers. I expect that may change this weekend. Although I penned them in for a couple of days after the move (it was so cold they wouldn't have wanted to go out anyway - and the cold was part of my plan) they have been able to leave the hive through small reduced entrances since the third day. A fair number have and have encountered various pitfalls: cold, snow disorientation, and a very few in the earliest days did return to the old place and die (probably less than a dozen bees discovered on the snow enroute to the old place(s) or at the old places.)

Of course I have also had branches and boards up over the entrances from the moment I re-opened the entrances. One of the hives (of three) is more keen on going out and I have observed some re-orientation type manouvers from those bees, but I wouldn't say with confidence that they are fully reoriented, yet, even though it's been almost five weeks.

Needless to say I am looking forward to- and dreading - the first day it's warm enough for wholesale cleansing flights! It's a serious management issue to have un-reoriented bees any time there's a chance that any manipulation (like adding sugar cakes) would prompt bees to leave in any number w/o going through the re-orientation step.

The move itself went off w/o a hitch but I did do it in an unconventional way: I moved the hives completely stacked together w/o breaking them apart. I did this because I felt that the risk to the cluster (and the time it takes to reform it in cool or cold weather) was the paramount consideration.

I deliberately chose a day after one when I knew they had had a chance to do cleansing flights, but when I knew that the temps were going DOWN right after the move. I wanted to catch the right moment when the weather would help me keep the bees inside for the longest period w/o stress.

I had a brief period when the temps on a Thursday afternoon were close to 50 and they flew out in large numbers. (Perversely the temps kept rising through the evening and as a result I didn't dare seal up the hives until after midnight that night.) 

In the late morning the next day (12/6) we strapped the hives together with two rachet straps crossways. Then we added a second pair of rachet straps as the hoists. I was afraid that any stress induced by the lift might force the boxes apart if we used the same pair of straps for securing the stack and for lifting. It may be overkill, but in the end it worked like a charm. (And in the winter in the north, I think there is NO margin for error or mischance during a move.)

Then we lifted the hives up using the bucket of our tractor and chains. My husband was extremely careful in the lift and I was standing by on the ground to stablize any odd moves. He drove the tractor backwards because that is our slowest creeper gear. I walked along side and despite hard frozen earth, bumps, slopes and several turns, the process was smooth and gentle. Setting them back down on their new stand was as soft as a feather. 

I doubt the cluster was jiggled at all, which allowed me to skip an additional remedy I had planned: I had standing by several microwaveable gel heating pads (the kind one uses for aches and pains or PT). If there had been a mishap, I planned to heat one up and slide it under the SBB (above the floor of the solid board) to add some temporary warmth to allow the bees some safety as they reformed their cluster (repeating as often through the first day and night as I thought necessary.) Thankfully I felt it wasn't necessary.

I did add a thick layer of blankets over the assembled hives (I put them all together on one pallet) to also give them buffer from the ensuing cold. And it did it ever get cold! It went from reaching 60F on the Thursday evening before the move to close to zero by Sunday am, before rebounding slightly the next week. And it's been cold, cold, cold, ever since.

Now, if you don't have a tractor to do the lift, I think you could still do this if you get some strong helpers. I would still double (well quadruple, actually) strap the hives: one set to hold the stack together and the other for lifting. If you are careful, you might even be able to do it with a hand cart, but I would still have helpers standing by to lift, stabilize, etc.

I moved the hives various distances in this move the farthest one was about 650 feet, the closest about 350 feet.

During the summer I moved one of my three hives 250 feet using Michael Bush's technique and it went off exactly as he describes. Then I moved my other two and it was a terrible failure despite doing it the same way. I have no explanation for the difference in outcome, but I must have done something differently. To rescue the failure I actually reversed one of the moves for one the two hives in the second lift which is why I had hives in three places, including one in the middle of my driveway when winter arrived.

I like moving hives in a stack so much that even in the summer, I think I would do it that way. Much less fuss for the bees - and the handlers. I think in warm weather I would combine a full-stack move with MB's technique of a left-behind box to collect stragglers, confused, lost bees, etc. But in cold weather I don't think you will have stragglers - and they might not survive even a short while w/o other bees to keep warm with - so I decided that it would be better to move the hives with all-aboard. And then not let them out for a few days and hope that ensuing cold weather would encourage them to stay in even longer to deepen the re-orientation response when they finally did decide to fly again. (So, I got my wish and perhaps the recent cold spell should be charged to my account because I really, really wanted them to be cold enough to stay in for a few weeks. But enough is enough!)

I was going to do a post about the move AFTER I know they have re-oriented, because I didn't want to jinx myself by prematurely declaring success. At best I can say that the actual move was successful as my bees are still alive today and I didn't kill bees inside the hive during the move. I carefully cleaned the SBB of dead bees before the move and did the same the day I opened the hive up three days later, so I know I didn't have a lot of dead bees due to the move.

Here's a pic of the move in progress:








I would not take my hives apart for a move at this season, even on a warm day. If you can, I think a closed-up stack move would be the best. Maybe your neighbor can understand why you have to wait a bit?

Good luck, if you have more questions I'll glad to answer them, pm me, or ask below.

EDITED TO ADD THIS: You won't have "new bees" in two weeks, or three weeks, etc. (At least not in MN!) You have what you have now and you will have the same adult bees on Valentines Day. That's the very important difference in a winter move than a summer move. Any bee who has been out at the old place will need to re-orient at the new place when it first goes out. Bees go out in the winter at temps that don't allow the enough time for searching behavior if they "forget" to re-orient. 

Enj.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Small dogs need bee stung! Your short move can be accomplished any time. I suggest in your cold at dusk. They will recluster if they break cluster in that short distance, they will do so only briefly before re-gathereing. They move just fine in the cold, just be careful as you can and use a ratchet strap or two so they don't come apart. 

Ignore the neighbor. Point out that you put up with his barking little dog and you have a right to enjoy your own property. Then refuse to argue. Refuse to be bullied.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

UPDATE on status of my moved hives:

Well, it's five weks since I moved the girls and finally we've got a brief break in temps (though with intermittent heavy rain squalls).

All three hives are flying and re-orienting, sort of.

But some bees have returned to the old locations and are searching there.

Particularly at the site of the one hive where I had the most problems with the MB-style move in late summer. (This was the hive that was so profoundly geprgraphically confused that I finally un-did the move to try and save enough bees to survive.) Those bees are either extraordinarily clueless about re-orientation or have extra hard-wired GPS in their brains. The bees from this hive had to work their way through a veritable forest of branches in fronot of their hive entrance to get out today and go around a board barrier as well. Most of them seem to have gotten the point but it was really disheartening to walk back to the house to change out of my wet cothes and see poor hapless bees just circling over where their stands used to be. I will try putting up some make-shift "left-behind" boxes to capture them if I can, but I am not hopeful.

I can't reverse this move from where they are now, we're too far along so if some of the bees die tonight in the cold (temps expected to drop back near freezing with sleet!), I guess there's nothing else to do but hope for the best for the rest of the bees in the hive.

Bees = one step forward and ten steps back.

Enj.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Your bees must have hybridized with carrier pigeons! Are you sure what you see back at the old location aren't bees finding something sweet to take home? Spilled syrup or honey would account for it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What was her dog doing taking a cleansing flight?


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## D1here (Mar 12, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> What was her dog doing taking a cleansing flight?


:lpf:

My questions are: how is it your fault the dog got stung? how does she know it was your bees and not a feral hive? if you move the bees 40 feet the dog will still get stung? why cant she keep her dog at her house and away from your hives? why all of the sudden are the bees a problem? 

tell her to keep fido at home and away from your bees and he will not get stung, and you have the bees on YOUR property and do not plan to move them.

going out on a limb here to guess these are the kind of neighbors who will fuss about the garden not producing, however complain about the bees being in the garden ....then ask if you have any honey.....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Autonomy Acres said:


> One of my neighbors is very ticked off with me because one of their small dogs was stung about 2-3 weeks ago on a cleansing flight.


Let me guess, an Airedale.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

I wonder if the dog is still mad at you.

Seriously, put a piece of comb or a frame in the spot and let them gather on it and then take them over and shake them in front of the hive late in the day, which I guess it must be right now.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

No alas, no spilled syrup as a reason to draw them back and even if it once had been, that would have long ago been washed away after the heavy snow, sleet, and assorted Biblical torrents of this season.

It's just that particular hive is really stuck. At the site of the other two hives one could see perhaps half a dozen bees circling, but mostly 10-20 feet in the air, before flying off. Perhaps they were just temporarily confused and were re-re-orienting to the path back to the new location.

But my poor old doofus hive ..... I put a left behind box down for those bees. Luckily I do actually have a super that had been on that hive during that last part of the summer, but they hadn't drawn it out much, except for assorted burr comb festoons to suit their notions of chic hive decor. 

The other two hives' half-moved, interim positions were completely out in the open so today's stiff wind and driving rain might prompt those confused bees to think a little bit harder about where their shelter is, _now._ But as I trudged back and forth between these three places and the new location, one possible contributing factor occured to me. The doofus hive was the last one removed from the barn-side location of the cut-out. I apparently have a swarm-magnet barn, having had these three arrive last spring to the same 20' of porous 19th- c siding. And it is in a sheltered place between two barns at right angles, so it may seem quite cozy and still have a powerful attraction from all the decades of propolis, wax remnants etc within the wall cavities.

Well, we'll see. I caught a couple of doofus-hive bees in the left-behind box and transported them back to their proper hive entrance and unceremoniously stuffed 'em back in through the vent hole. I set political signs up as rain shelters over the entrances of the three hives at the new site as there are still bees emerging (temps, oddly, still rising in the blowing rain) The bees buzzing around at the new location seem to be gradually sorting themselves out in the near-dark. The entrances right now are a bit wider-open than safe mouse-barrier width. I'll go down in an hour and close up shop, and assess how many dumb bees perished due to today's unfortunately necessary step forward.

Of all the management problems I faced in my first year of keeping bees, the seemingly endless need to move them has been the biggest, most stressful challenge. First they had to be dug out of the walls, then convince them to keep staying in their new hives, then get the hives unsuspended from ropes high up against the barns, then down further to interim platforms, then down to ground level, then away from the barn, then moved to a better permanent location. When that move failed so disastrously, I almost gave up. Then I read about the idea of doing a cold weather/winter move and began planning how to do that while waiting and waiting, for just the right day and conditions. The move itself was anticlimatic since it went so easily. And then weeks of waiting for and now dealing with whatever happens as the bees re-orient for the first time. Maybe after this weekend I'll be able to just have "normal" bee chores, and not so much drama due to relocation issues. 

One can hope, right?

Enj.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I had a got that got stung a lot. But they were digger bees, not honey bees...

Winter is a risky time for a move as they often get too cold too quick to sort things out. If you move them on a warm day in the morning they have all day to sort things out. You never want to put a box at the old location until close to dark. You want to encourage them to spiral outward to find the hive and they won't do that if there is any equipment their that resembles their home. On a warm day you can also leave the lid off of the hive which causes them to nasonov and that smell helps guide the lost ones home...

None of this finding the new place works well when it's cold. The upside of doing it when it's cold is most bees will reorient after they have been confined for 72 hours. Obviously, though, some bees didn't get that memo...


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Michael,

I hope you don't feel that I am critical of your short-distance move instructions. As I have said, the first attempt I made with it went exactly as you described and was an unqualified success! The only problem was I had planned to do the move in two or three stages so I only moved part way with one of my hives (the biggest and most sturdy just in case all the local nay-sayers were right.) That meant the "success" was (temporarily, I thought) parked in my driveway, while I moved on to the other two hives which I planned to hopscotch past the first one.

It was the second flight where trouble happened and I can't figure out why as I did as closely as I could exactly the same thing. One of those hives wound up somewhat farther than the first (en route to the intended final target) but as I said above, the other one of the pair I returned to the original location in sheer desperation to save it. I lost so many bees from it, that it was reduced to the size of a nuc when all was done.

For a few weeks I was so traumatized and stymied by what I had set in motion that I was afraid to do anything with my bees. But eventually I pulled up my socks and began trying to find a solution, which is when the possibility of a winter move came across my horizon. What the winter move taught me was a variation on your technique: that of moving the hive as a unit rather than box by box, which as long as I have access to a tractor is what I would do in the future. Having seen in it now in practice, I think separating the boxes is much more work and risky than a united move. But the notion of the left-behind box (placed just before dark, which is what I do) is very important, too. So important that I would plan in advance to have "harvested" a suitable box from the hive stack ahead of time to have it to put out at the old stand the first evening (and any necessary successive evenings) to round up the confused-ones.

The only benefit of my move-calamity was that it gave the local "bee-expert" nay-sayers about local moves a chance to say, "I told you so!" 

But I agree with you, my hive named "Fern" must surely have not gotten (even at this late date) the memo about proper behavior after your keeper moves your hive. 

Despite all my various adventures in bee-moving I am very grateful for your extremely useful insights about moving bees. I hope you won't mind though, if I confess that I hope to never, ever, move another hive again. I can't take the stress!

Enj.


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