# importance of treating neighbours in TF beekeeping



## BeesFromPoland

I was wondering how do You see the importance of neighbouring beeyards in TF beekeeping? Is it possible to do TF beekeeping when every neighbour treats bees?

I'm from Poland where everybody treats bees. I'm living in the area where there are quite a few apiaries / beeyards of different beekeepers - all of them treat bees. They are in the bee flying range (1 - 3 km). We have almost no feral stock since there are apiaries all over the country, and treating bees "destroyed" surviving genetics. When there's a "feral" colony it is 99% a swarm from treating apiary and it survives no more than 2 years (mostly only 1). 
It is said in Poland that TF beekeeping is impossible in that conditions (not that anyone tried...  ). Everybody says that treaters will spoil my bees' genetics, and on the other hand I would "sow" the diseases... 

I tried not treating last year (2014) - all of my bees (23 colonies) died in autumn -only one survived till winter, and then died... I'm not treating this year either - now it is better, till now as far as I know all of the colonies are alive. 

No matter what, I'm doing TF. I just wonder what is Your opinion and experiences since a lot of You may have similar conditions (meaning treating neighbours). 

[let's not consider TF beekeeping methods - (just the influence of neighbours) - I tried to find local genetics, do foundationless, minimalize the sugar etc ]


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## squarepeg

BeesFromPoland said:


> Everybody says that treaters will spoil my bees' genetics, and on the other hand I would "sow" the diseases...


this is very possibly the case bfp.

even if you were to bring in bees that were bred for resistance and have a history of being successful off treatments those bees would eventually mix and hybridize with whatever is around you. when this has been tried by folks such as randy oliver and others and the result has been that the resistant traits are soon lost.

as far as sowing diseases the hives you had that died likely became a source for the spreading of diseases and pests unless you took extraordinary measures to prevent robbing. what usually happens is when weak colonies dwindle down and are unable to defend the hive neighboring bees will rob the hive and carry the problems back home with them.

without the presence of true ferals having resistance and surviving in your location it may be that keeping bees off treatments is not possible. if you choose to attempt it the responsible thing to do is make absolutely sure your hives don't get robbed as they are collapsing.


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## Eduardo Gomes

squarepeg said:


> without the presence of true ferals having resistance and surviving in your location it may be that keeping bees off treatments is not possible. if you choose to attempt it the responsible thing to do is make absolutely sure your hives don't get robbed as they are collapsing.


:applause: Very fair what you say squarepeg. I belief is very hard to ensure however this caring attitude. For this reason I think only properly identified and approved programs by the european veterinary authorities can legally not treat their bees if infested with varroa mites. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Michael Palmer

BeesFromPoland said:


> I was wondering how do You see the importance of neighbouring beeyards in TF beekeeping? Is it possible to do TF beekeeping when every neighbour treats bees?


I see it differently. Is it possible to keep bees, TF or non-TF when every neighbor doesn't treat. Just gotta love those "mite farmers".


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## HarryVanderpool

I searched and searched on Google.
Couldn't find a link to the local Mitekeepers Association.
:lookout:


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## squarepeg

many thanks eduardo. 

as to how the regulations are set up in the e.u. i do not know. here in the u.s. we do not have such programs. 

we do however have areas in which there are ferals that have developed resistance and are surviving. my goal is to propagate these as much as time allows and encourage others to do the same.

perhaps over time and with some effort from the beekeeping community these bees will come to represent a larger footprint in the genetic landscape.

the challenge as i see it is that while it is relatively easy for small operators like myself whose livelihood is not at stake to 'experiment' with keeping apiaries off treatments, it is much more difficult for professionals to do so and they represent the majority of hives.


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## jim lyon

Eduardo Gomes said:


> :applause: Very fair what you say squarepeg. I belief is very hard to ensure however this caring attitude. For this reason I think only properly identified and approved programs by the european veterinary authorities can legally not treat their bees if infested with varroa mites. Correct me if I'm wrong.


What you need to understand about the US is we were founded by a group of rebels looking for religious (and beekeeping) freedom from the oppressive mandates of the King. 
Rules? We ain't got no stinkin rules.


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## Oldtimer

BFP the situation you describe is the same as my country.

TF beekeeping is not possible here. There is one guy (Roy Arbon) who has some TF hives, I think 3, in a remote area, he moves them to for mating where there are ferals. But the rest of the country is densely populated with treated bees and TF cannot be done, many have tried, even experienced TF beekeepers from overseas using their own imported or home made comb foundation.

For you, I think in Poland you can import queens? If so you could do it if you import queens rather than mate locally. But realise even in America where all the literature about TF beekeeping comes from, average TF hive losses are nearly 50% per year.


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## Eduardo Gomes

Jim I did not unaware of this cultural and political differences between Europe and the United States. And that will continue for many years to come and that all we 're here to check.  
I just mean what it seems to me what is happening in Europe on this matter. As a european I'm think it's good that the law does not allow build factories of varroa based on simple wishful thinking.


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## jim lyon

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Jim I did not unaware of this cultural and political differences between Europe and the United States. And that will continue for many years to come and that all we 're here to check.
> I just mean what it seems to me what is happening in Europe on this matter. As a european I'm think it's good that the law does not allow build factories of varroa based on simple wishful thinking.


Of course my post should have probably included something like this.

But seriously, regulations regarding beekeeping vary widely from state to state but for the most part there isn't the regulatory framework in the US that you describe. The federal government defers to the states in most beekeeping matters and some states have virtually no beekeeping regulations to speak of.


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## Eduardo Gomes

Jim leaving the legal aspects, and I mention them because the OP is a european beekeeper, how you do to manage the re-infestation of varroa originating from neighboring apiaries whether TF or not? I now have an apiary which was re infested because a neighbor has not dealt with about a dozen hives. I see no other alternative than to make a new treatment within days and ahead of schedule. Thank you for your attention.


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## jim lyon

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Jim leaving the legal aspects, and I mention them because the OP is a european beekeeper, how you do to manage the re-infestation of varroa originating from neighboring apiaries whether TF or not? I now have an apiary which was re infested because a neighbor has not dealt with about a dozen hives. I see no other alternative than to make a new treatment within days and ahead of schedule. Thank you for your attention.


As a beekeeper you are never happy when you feel your bees may have been adversely affected by neighboring bees but I dont get too obsessed about it. First of all I think one is better served worrying first about your own bees before fretting too much about others. Beyond that, however, I don't look at it as a treat/no treat issue as much as it is a good beekeeper/bad beekeeper issue.


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## Adrian Quiney WI

As I understand it, the puported mechanism of reinfestation is that the conventional-miticide-using-beekeepers bees go to a non conventional beekeepers collapsing hives and pick up mites. The assumption is that the non-treating beekeepers hives are weak and dying. However, this is not always the case. 

BeesFromPoland, it is possible to keep bees without chemical treatment, but a lot of colonies will die unless something is done to control mites. It does not have to be chemicals. I use a combination of two methods: I use broodbreaks as explained by Mel Disselkoen http://www.mdasplitter.com/ Start with the oldest files and read them.
I use Mel's methods to make colonies in 5 frame nuc boxes, and then I add a second level of 5 frames to overwinter them. My inspiration for the nucs came from Michael Palmer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nznzpiWEI8A&feature=youtu.be

Here is what one of my apairies looks like. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MatoOA9TapA The important thing is that here (in Wisconsin USA) there is a long period of broodlessness in the winter. This period of broodlessness plus the broodbreak broodlessness stops the varroa's breeding enough that my bees survive. I suspect that you could keep bees this way too as I understand that Poland has cold winters too.


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## Michael Bush

> Is it possible to do TF beekeeping when every neighbour treats bees?

Possible? I find it possible, but it makes it more difficult.


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## Fusion_power

> Possible? I find it possible, but it makes it more difficult.


I consider isolation to be a key differentiator in my success with keeping bees completely treatment free. But it is not just isolation, I also actively pushed swarms into the woods for several years to establish a buffer of treatment free bees in this area. Without the feral buffer, I would be unable to raise and mate queens that express mite tolerance traits.

I know of 3 beekeepers east of me, one is only 2 miles away, another 3 miles, and the third 5 miles. All three treat for mites. Fortunately, there are no beekeepers within drone flying distance to the South, West, or North. This is also a relatively wooded area with plenty of tree cavities where feral colonies can take up residence. I see measurable numbers of mites showing up in my colonies and their carcasses being hauled out after my bees have dealt with them. These are most likely phoretic mites that dropped onto flowers and then hitched a ride with my bees. I have not seen DWV or PMS in my bees since the end of 2004. I have lost an occasional colony along the way that likely was a result of mite infestation. This has not exceeded 10% of my total colonies in the past 11 years. Let me emphasize that I have not had more than 10% loss from all causes over winter for the last 11 years. It is very difficult to nearly impossible to keep bees with winter losses in the 50% range as someone noted above.

My opinion is similar to others expressed that the only way BFP can go treatment free is to import mated queens. He may never be able to successfully mate treatment free bees in his area. But he has to start somewhere given his expressed intent.


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## 1102009

Hi BfP,
same situation here.
Try to find the most isolated location as possible.
Tell the beekeepers in your area to treat thoroughly so you don`t get their mites.
European law says you have to treat , having mite problems. If more than 10 mites a day fall down on your board you must do something.
Prevent robbery.
Use small cell foundation.
Do strong splits.
If you have to regress your bees do sugar shakes of whole hive every 3 weeks to shake down the phoretic mites ( well 23 hives are to much for this work, I fear).
Have small distance between your hives, so you can see which colonies do the VSH best. Use those for splits. Or buy queens.
This are my mentors words, not mine. I have no experience yet, but I have some TF friends who have success for some years now and they have the same situation. None of them is a varroa distributor, but I admit, it`s a struggle and much work. The best bee queens so far are the elgons, breeded by Erik Österlund or the local mutt queens. 
Good luck to you.


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## BeesFromPoland

Thanks For Your answers and for the tips. 
We made a cooperation of some beekeepers in Poland and some of them this Year made no treatments. Hopefully we all have better luck than I had last year. However we are from all over Poland and most of us have treated yards besides. 

I'm aware of the dangers, and I read a lot about the solutions. I'm aware that it's not possible to have immortal hives. I'm also aware that it would be difficult to have TF apiary with "commercial methods" (maximizing honey production, fighting swarming, moving hives etc etc etc - I'dont plan to do either of that).
I just wanted to hear some experiences and for that I'm grateful. 

What I find important is what Fusion Power wrote, that is "pushing swarms" in the woods. I intend to make some boxes and put it in the woods on the trees. I bought some material this year for that purpose and do it in the spring. I hope that in some years it will pay off. 

I got some queens that I find promissing, and one of beekeepers I cooperate with, have some from other sources. We shall see where it goes... 

I know the situation is not easy, but we have to start thinking long distance in this part of the world. Problem is with little areas of wild nature, and populated areas where feral bees have no place to live. In most of the forests old trees are cut off (so: no cavities for the bees) because "they are the threat" (for who? I don't know that...)

ps. I think that also most important is what You define as "possible" or "not possible"... If we think as "possible": surviving of 95% of population, I'm sure that it is impossible....


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## squarepeg

> No matter what, I'm doing TF.





> No matter what, I'm treating.


i suppose it's human nature to find the path of least resistance which in my view is what is done when arbitrarily chosing either an 'all in' or an 'all out' approach. doing so certainly simplifies the decision making aspect of an otherwise complicated (to the point of being overwhelming to a beginner) endeavor but it does so at the cost of ignoring the pro and con nuances associated with either path.

that truly feral bees are developing resistance to varroa is undisputed and shouldn't come as a huge surprise. the bee is a much higher life form than the mite and its resiliency has no doubt allowed it to overcome untold novel pests and diseases over the millennia.

with managed bees the converse seems to be the case. we are seeing the mites developing resistance to treatments, more frequent treatments are becoming necessary, thresholds are being lowered, ect. could it be that the 'treadmill' is winning?

it's difficult to wear the other shoe sometimes but i'm thinking that if i depended on bees for my livelihood i would be appreciative and encouraging of the efforts of those doing the work of finding ways to keep bees off treatments. i recognize that there are those on this forum who have been supportive of these efforts.



BeesFromPoland said:


> I know the situation is not easy, but we have to start thinking long distance in this part of the world.



sounds like a good plan and not just for poland.


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## BeesFromPoland

squarepeg said:


> it's difficult to wear the other shoe sometimes but i'm thinking that if i depended on bees for my livelihood i would be appreciative and encouraging of the efforts of those doing the work of finding ways to keep bees off treatments. i recognize that there are those on this forum who have been supportive of these efforts.


99% beekeepers in Poland don't think that way (probably the rest of the world as well). They say that non-treaters will make their bees sick and die (like they are not sick, and dying already with everybody treating)...


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## squarepeg

understood bfp, and that antagonism is profoundly evident here on the forum as evidenced by some of the replies you received above. 

i commented on how the bee was a superior species to the mite, and aren't we humans even more so? 

but this appears to be another case in which the natural tendency we have to protect our 'territory' may be more of an obstacle than asset.

unfortunately i don't have any great ideas about how we can go from where we are to where we would all like to be, i.e. to be able to ignore the varroa mite much like we now ignore the tracheal mite.

it sounds like the development in your area has resulted in the loss of habitat to support a feral population and without that i think your challenge is large but perhaps not insurmountable. good luck.


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## 1102009

BeesFromPoland said:


> I'm living in the area where there are quite a few apiaries / beeyards of different beekeepers - all of them treat bees. They are in the bee flying range (1 - 3 km).





> What I find important is what Fusion Power wrote, that is "pushing swarms" in the woods. I intend to make some boxes and put it in the woods on the trees. I bought some material this year for that purpose and do it in the spring. I hope that in some years it will pay off.


Don`t do that, if you have neighbors who treat. They will hate you! You have no control about the mite infestation or other diseases this way!

I edited this. I`m not sure I understood, what you want to do.
In my area it is not allowed to put empty boxes out and hope swarms will locate. Foreign swarms are the property of the beekeeper, he may claim them. I don`t know about law in your region.
Maybe you want to distribute swarms already established.


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## BeesFromPoland

SiWolKe said:


> Don`t do that, if you have neighbors who treat. They will hate you! You have no control about the mite infestation or other diseases this way!
> Be responsible


I'm sure they already hate me 

and the problem is what is really responsible?... what is responsible in short terms and in long distance?
the problem with feral population is loss of habitat (what squarapeg also mentioned). How can feral population be reintroduced and build resistance if we control all the swarms, destroy the habitats and don't give bees new ones? 

It's not an easy and unambigious problem... 

If we keep "protecting our teritority" - as Squarepeg wrote - how can we free the nature for development? how can we build resistance? whatever we do there are problems, however in my opinion this is the only long distance choice to take...


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## Eduardo Gomes

I want to say that I also agree that long-term the way will seek to have productive and resilient bees. It was this thought that led me this year to make more than 2,500 Km to go shopping resistant lines in France. They are not the objectives that distinguish us, are the means to use those targets that separate us.



BeesFromPoland said:


> I tried not treating last year (2014) - all of my bees (23 colonies) died in autumn -only one survived till winter, and then died... I'm not treating this year either - now it is better, till now as far as I know all of the colonies are alive.


What are you doing differently from last year to avoid the same outcome now.


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## BeesFromPoland

Eduardo Gomes said:


> What are you doing differently from last year to avoid the same outcome now.



First. last year in my region (the whole Poland was slightly better, but still bad) we had average losses of about 40 % (or more) - treaters as well. Some of my collagues lost 100% of bees (many yards of 30 - 40 collonies perished) even they were treating. In the association in the town next to my village (15km) they lost about 60 - 70% of bees (500 - 600 colonies) - mostly in autumn and early winter. of course there were also apiaries that survived in (almost) 100%. 
I had mostly young colonies (4 - 5 months old nucs) in new hives - so I can not say this was my neglect that the bees died. they should survive without treatmens at least till winter ... - however they died.

Second. I have different stock now. I got bees from "half wild" apiary of local AMM from beekeeper that hadn't changed queens for decades. I also bought some queens from Erik Osterlund and Juhani Lunden's stock (not directly, but from people that bought from them). 
Besides that I do mostly the same because I find the method correct and logical. I try to follow Mr Bush (and others) instructions. I do foundationless, try to regress them acording to instructions, try to minimalize the sugar etc etc. I've got wooden hives, no plastic, no drugs, no foundation (this year I also introduced as bottoms with organic matter as Mr Phil Chandler suggests). I try to introduce "expansion model beekeeping". 

I'm sure most think that when my bees die, it's my fault. But I don't see that like it. We had in our region probably the worst year in beekeeping since varroa came (1980). Poor honey flow (beekeepers had 20 - 50 percent of average crop), and in autumn bees were dying in hundreds - treated bees since there is no TF beekeeping in Poland... 

We don't have good sources of TF bees in Poland. There is some selected genetics available (mostly from abroad) - and I and my colleagues got some. but this is just begining of TF beekeeping in Poland. We are all aware that our losses would be great on the start... But You have to start somehow....


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## Juhani Lunden

BeesFromPoland said:


> First I also bought some queens from Erik Osterlund and Juhani Lunden's stock (not directly, but from people that bought from them).
> ....




Please report what do you think of them!


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## Eduardo Gomes

BeesFromPoland said:


> Some of my collagues lost 100% of bees (many yards of 30 - 40 collonies perished) even they were treating. In the association in the town next to my village (15km) they lost about 60 - 70% of bees (500 - 600 colonies) - mostly in autumn and early winter. of course there were also apiaries that survived in (almost) 100%.


Have you reached any conclusions about the reason for such disparate mortality rates: nearly 100% mortality vs. almost 100 % survival?



> Second. I have different stock now. I got bees from "half wild" apiary of local AMM from beekeeper that hadn't changed queens for decades. I also bought some queens from Erik Osterlund and Juhani Lunden's stock (not directly, but from people that bought from them).


It seems a promising change. Good luck.


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## BeesFromPoland

Juhani Lunden said:


> Please report what do you think of them!




too early to say  
and I bought only 3 unfertilized queens, but only one returned from the mating flight. I made 4 another daughters from her (so who knows how much - or how little - of the genetics is still left). They all were doing fine in late summer and autumn, they had quite quick developement (for small nucs made in early summer!) - but they all were in nucs, and just building up. I hope they will get through winter... 

I can say that my bees (nucs made from local AMM) did not want these queens ;-) each of the 3 collonies wanted to change the queen I gave them.


ps. some of beekeepers that also bought them say that they guard entrances better than other bees they have. no jellow jacket is allowed in the hive


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## BeesFromPoland

Eduardo Gomes said:


> Have you reached any conclusions about the reason for such disparate mortality rates: nearly 100% mortality vs. almost 100 % survival?
> 
> 
> It seems a promising change. Good luck.


thanks.

no idea... I know one had local queens for years (but he had only 8 or 9 collonies).
One of my friends and neighbours lost 30 of 40 hives - 10 survived on the same yard. He also has local bees - he did the same in all the hives. 

One of my collegues used some disinfection substance (based on iodine and acids) - he had almost 100% surviving... seems to be working but it kills all the living things in the hive... probably it would work for the short time, but I would not bet if it makes bees healthy... 

what we think main reason was not varroa but nosema cerane... probably...


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## sqkcrk

BeesFromPoland said:


> I was wondering how do You see the importance of neighboring bee yards in TF beekeeping? Is it possible to do TF beekeeping when every neighbor treats bees?


I believe it is Marla Spivak who talks about how important it is for those who treat their hives to also have those neighbors treat too. In a way similar to vaccinations in human populations. I don't know if it works the other way around though.

If you maintain your bees TF and those around you don't, what is the impact on the TF hives from the Treated hives. I would think that there would be more impact going the other way. That the hives with fewer mites would get mites from the untreated hives. But I am not sure about that.


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## lharder

If you have friends who are tf then perhaps you can create a little nexus of tf territory. At least where the mating of your queens takes place. I am going to start putting robbing screens on my hives to take into consideration the concerns of other beekeepers. I will also be reaching out the the academic community. Those in ecology and genetics as well as those attempting to breed resistant bees may be interested. Our local bee guru as called for an open mind in regards to tf beekeeping. Remember the "science" behind letting nature create resilient locally adapted bees supports the tf approach.


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## Terry C

Fusion_power said:


> I consider isolation to be a key differentiator in my success with keeping bees completely treatment free. But it is not just isolation, I also actively pushed swarms into the woods for several years to establish a buffer of treatment free bees in this area. Without the feral buffer, I would be unable to raise and mate queens that express mite tolerance traits.
> 
> My opinion is similar to others expressed that the only way BFP can go treatment free is to import mated queens. He may never be able to successfully mate treatment free bees in his area. But he has to start somewhere given his expressed intent.


 It is my hope that we're isolated enough for that to work here . As this is only my second winter I haven't had any swarms escape unless that's where my original (TF) queen went . While I realize that it might not make a lot of difference what drones show up at nearby DCA's , we saw zero honeybees here before we got ours - neighbors have also commented on this . A part of my plan to stay treatment free is to bring in other TF queens , in order to try to keep those genetics in my apiary and hopefully spread them into any feral populations that are here . I think it helps that the TF breeder I got mine from has been here for several years , is close to me , and several locals in the area are also using his stock . 
Time will tell ... and next summer will be year three , which is when most keepers attempting TF hit the mite wall . I'll probably go ahead and build a vaporizer this winter just in case , as I'd rather treat than lose my hives ... but that will be a last resort .


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## camero7

Michael Palmer said:


> I see it differently. Is it possible to keep bees, TF or non-TF when every neighbor doesn't treat. Just gotta love those "mite farmers".


I agree totally. I have some hobby beekeepers close by and I treat their hives for free. Collapsing hives are the worst in the fall.


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## 1102009

Last year was a varroa year here.
Bees are treated with formic acid in summer but it didn`t work because of the weather. 
Treatment is after honey harvest. You can`t sell honey with acid contents here.
So---90% of the treated local colonies died. There are no tf beekeepers here except me. Last year I had no tf bees. My treated hive died.
This year not so much mites, but maybe they died with the bees.

This year I showed my hives to some people and they start to be interested in tf. But I must have some positive results for a longer time first.
I get along very well with other beekeepers who treat and I want to keep it this way. 
I hope to have some influence later.
You can`t enforce a change in thinking in my opinion.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney

jim lyon said:


> First of all I think one is better served worrying first about your own bees before fretting too much about others. Beyond that, however, I don't look at it as a treat/no treat issue as much as it is a good beekeeper/bad beekeeper issue.


Agree about the fret & it is possible, just takes more awareness, time, and management. Sounds like it will be an uphill battle in your neck of the woods. Also Please keep those bad beekeepers away from my apiaries


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## BeesFromPoland

Sibylle, we had similar last year here...




SiWolKe said:


> I edited this. I`m not sure I understood, what you want to do.
> In my area it is not allowed to put empty boxes out and hope swarms will locate. Foreign swarms are the property of the beekeeper, he may claim them. I don`t know about law in your region.
> Maybe you want to distribute swarms already established.


What I want is make some habitats for "feral" bees - make some boxes, or put some hives to the forests. And see if they can survive. Probably put some swarms in them if I would have some "spare".

As to legal concerns. In Poland a swarm is the property of the beekeeper from whom it went away for 3 days. During this 3 days he may claim the property, he may collect it from any place (even from somebody's hive - of course he should prove it it his swarm). After 3 days it becomes nobody's. If it comes to my box, after 3 days it becomes mine. If sb takes it then (even the former owner), it is stealing.


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## Oldtimer

BeesFromPoland said:


> Some of my collagues lost 100% of bees (many yards of 30 - 40 collonies perished) even they were treating.......... of course there were also apiaries that survived in (almost) 100%.


Mostly in these situations it happens by beekeeper. If you check, you may discover that some beekeepers had big losses, while another beekeeper in the same territory had almost no losses.



BeesFromPoland said:


> What I want is make some habitats for "feral" bees - make some boxes, or put some hives to the forests. And see if they can survive. Probably put some swarms in them if I would have some "spare".


If going to that expense you may as well have the hives yourself. I don't have a buffer zone, but my biggest apiary has around 100 hives and because the area is very productive most of my other apiaries are within a few Km's of each other. They are their own buffer zone, there are massive quantities of my drones in the area. Few other drones would get a look in at mating time. I would not be relying on a random bunch of wild swarms that may or may not establish.

Personally and as someone who treats, I've never cared what my neighbours are doing about mites, if their hives crash and get robbed it's mostly at a time I'm watching my own bees to see if they need treating anyway. If they do I treat, so mite drift is a non issue. AFB, well that's a whole different story, and I DO mess with neighbors not taking care of that, but I don't get fussed about neighbors losing bees to mites.


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## Fusion_power

> sqkcrk: I would think that there would be more impact going the other way. That the hives with fewer mites would get mites from the untreated hives. But I am not sure about that.


You are correct that the hives with fewer mites get mites from the hives with more mites. My untreated bees pick up mites from treated colonies. Typical numbers of 15 mites dropping in 48 days during winter are normal for my bees. In summer and late fall, I can get 5 or 6 a day. Brood tests show zero mites in worker brood though I have found 1 in drone brood from time to time. The logical conclusion is that they are not reproducing in my treatment free bees, therefore they must be coming from elsewhere.


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## Barry

Oldtimer said:


> Personally and as someone who treats, I've never cared what my neighbours are doing about mites, if their hives crash and get robbed it's mostly at a time I'm watching my own bees to see if they need treating anyway. If they do I treat, so mite drift is a non issue. AFB, well that's a whole different story, and I DO mess with neighbors not taking care of that, but I don't get fussed about neighbors losing bees to mites.


:thumbsup: Thanks for saying this. I was just getting ready to post a message exactly about this. Beekeepers treating have little to worry about, mite wise, from non treaters. And the commercial guy treating far out numbers the hobbyist with their few TF hives.


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## Oldtimer

Agreed Barry, although I'm rather sceptical of ALL the finger pointing that goes on about this, from both sides of the camp.


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## crofter

The only problem I see with assuming the collapsing hive will be no issue to a treating beekeeper is one of the nature, timing and effective duration of his treating method. The treating beekeeper would have to ensure he has a treatment barrier extending beyond the last possible hive collapsing event to be sure his hives would not take on a load of late arriving mites. Some treatments might lend themselves to this while others, not so much.


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## johngfoster

sqkcrk said:


> I believe it is Marla Spivak who talks about how important it is for those who treat their hives to also have those neighbors treat too. In a way similar to vaccinations in human populations. I don't know if it works the other way around though.
> 
> If you maintain your bees TF and those around you don't, what is the impact on the TF hives from the Treated hives. I would think that there would be more impact going the other way. That the hives with fewer mites would get mites from the untreated hives. But I am not sure about that.


Actually, this is kinda "backwards thinking". True, there is something similar to "herd immunity" for the TF beekeeper, but we need to be careful calling it "immunity". Treatments are actually the opposite of immunity. It would be like if someone developed a "cure" for Chicken Pox, instead of a vaccination, or letting people develop their own immunity to it.

Immunity is actually the body's natural ability to fight disease WITHOUT the use of treatments. And developing strains of bees that are naturally resistant (immune?) to pests, actually will benefit the whole beekeeping community in the long run (herd immunity). Eventually, after treating with the antivirals, we would start to see resistant strains of the virus developing, and the problem would get worse. The better approach is to develop immunity. I wish there was a way we could give our bees a vaccination instead of an antibiotic or other "treatment". Very different thing.


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## deknow

sqkcrk said:


> I believe it is Marla Spivak who talks about how important it is for those who treat their hives to also have those neighbors treat too. In a way similar to vaccinations in human populations. I don't know if it works the other way around though.
> 
> If you maintain your bees TF and those around you don't, what is the impact on the TF hives from the Treated hives. I would think that there would be more impact going the other way. That the hives with fewer mites would get mites from the untreated hives. But I am not sure about that.


Mark, this is the issue I was trying to get at in the Mighty Mite Bomb thread.

If untreated bees are such a problem, then shouldnt some attention be paid to swarms from commercial operations? Or do we think that the number of nuscence TF colonies is significantly greater than the number of swarms from commercial hives every year?

What is the actual problem that needs attention?


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## Oldtimer

deknow said:


> Mark, this is the issue I was trying to get at in the Mighty Mite Bomb thread. If untreated bees are such a problem, then shouldnt some attention be paid to swarms from commercial operations?


If you want to fingerpoint, then yes.

But what form should this "attention" you suggest take? To go beyond fingerpointing, what would you propose actually doing about it? If you have a useful idea how commercial beekeepers could stop 1% of their hives swarming let's hear it they would appreciate your help.


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## Juhani Lunden

BeesFromPoland said:


> I'm living in the area where there are quite a few apiaries / beeyards of different beekeepers - all of them treat bees. They are in the bee flying range (1 - 3 km).


Is it possible that you take your bees somewhere little bit further away from other beekeepers hives? It would make a difference if you could move your bees to a place where there would be not many treating beekeepers hives within 3-5 km radius. Then you should encourage your bees to make a much drone brood as they wish. Treating beekeepers have nothing to worry about your beekeeping, but you will be in trouble because of them if they are not treating mites very well.


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## BeesFromPoland

Juhani Lunden said:


> Is it possible that you take your bees somewhere little bit further away from other beekeepers hives? It would make a difference if you could move your bees to a place where there would be not many treating beekeepers hives within 3-5 km radius. Then you should encourage your bees to make a much drone brood as they wish. Treating beekeepers have nothing to worry about your beekeeping, but you will be in trouble because of them if they are not treating mites very well.


Well to tell the truth it is not possible in my conditions. I have 4 yards now (21 colonies on main yard, then 5, 5 and 3 - 34 collonies together (for now)) - and each of the yards is beside some apiary (couple km). If I move it away from one, I put it closer to another. In Poland there is a lot of apiaries of 5 - 20 hives, and they are almost all over the country (1 - 3 small apiaries for the village). Of course there probably are places with less or no apiaries, but I don't know them near where I live. And there is always the logistic problem - the place to put hives, way to get there etc. 
that are the conditions here... not an easy task to go TF  however I will try.

the problem is also that some people get "better" bees (like e.g. Yours, Juhani) and treat them, and do the same as with others. so the bees live with toxins, the selection pressure is off, the microfauna is killed, they use foundation 5.4mm etc... then they say that these bees are not resistant/resiliant, and it cannot be done etc... so that's the reality... 
Most of the people that got Your bees from the source I got them, treat them - the same as others...


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## Juhani Lunden

BeesFromPoland said:


> Most of the people that got Your bees from the source I got them, treat them - the same as others...


I have heard that John Kefuss has said the same: most beekeepers buying their stock treat them.


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## sqkcrk

deknow said:


> What is the actual problem that needs attention?


Good question.


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## sqkcrk

Oldtimer said:


> If you want to fingerpoint, then yes.


Which is not what I meant to do by my statement. Though I can understand how someone could see it that way.


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## camero7

> What is the actual problem that needs attention?


Collapsing hives full of mites in the fall, after most treatments are over.


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## Barry

What are those treatments and how late in the fall are we talking?


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## Michael Palmer

Whatever they are Barry. The problem is crashing colonies in the neighborhood after your treatment has been successful. 

I think I've said this before. NY samples my bees. In July a few years ago, my 20 + yards rolled 0-2 mites. Two apiaries next to a TF beekeeper rolled 13-15.

Why?


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## Barry

But at some point, the mites are going to die with the bees. Isn't timing then fairly critical to how this plays out? For sure there are variables to each location and timing of treatments, but I wonder what the real impact is either way. Is it measurable or are we all just guessing or assuming?


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## sqkcrk

I don't know.


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## Oldtimer

Beekeepers are thick on the ground in my area and they have varying levels of competence. Complaining to them about their failings or giving advice is not guaranteed to work, so for me, I work on the principle my bees will likely do some robbing and pick up some mites so factor that into my treatment regime. It has to be that way, I just decided to get used to it and work around it.

Fully understand where you are coming from though MP, in some locations and circumstances it may be very difficult getting it all timed right.


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## beepro

Yes, it is possible to do tf beekeeping when all your neighbors are
treating. You have to make the splits at the right time. Get the mite
fighting bees. Saturate your DCAs with many mite fighting genetics like how they
dealt with the AHB down south. Give the queen a brood break at the hightest mite population. Time your yearly hive expansion and contraction according to your local environment.
I'm still at my little bee experiment hoping to get some mite resistant bees this winter. So far they are holding and growing stronger every day that passed. It is still a work in progress. At least this year I don't have the mites to kill my entire hive. I am still learning along the way. Last year was a mess but not that many hives as yours that died. I still use some oav treatment when needed. Without the resistant bees all your efforts will be like droping a drop of ink into the ocean. Of the many hives that I have there are 2 that are promising to get some resistant queens from in the Spring time. You can only do tf when the mite fighting bees expressed themselves. And the drones going to the local DCA play a 50% important role here. Observe them closely to see which hives got those. The mites are here to stay and among them the many bee diseases they carry. 
You mention about the floor material, "(this year I also introduced as bottoms with organic matter as Mr Phil Chandler suggests)"
So what is this organic matter that you will be using? And how do you hold these materials at the bottom so that the bees will not carry them outside?


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## BeesFromPoland

beepro said:


> You mention about the floor material, "(this year I also introduced as bottoms with organic matter as Mr Phil Chandler suggests)"
> So what is this organic matter that you will be using? And how do you hold these materials at the bottom so that the bees will not carry them outside?


this is something I caught up from this film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWB-pdlqeFQ (I watched also some others but I cannot find them now) - there is also an explanaition why one want to do that. for me it is just "working theory" which I find convincing. However I use full boxes with boards (not screened). (I have standard hive with boxes and supers). I also use upper entrances, which I caught from Michael Bush, and I think one is a good complement of the other. I don't do migratory beekeeping so it's not an "additional" problem for me. 
here is the picture of my bottom boxes with this organic matter: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-H0pdg3XQIZw/VWtxsMQZWqI/AAAAAAAAAJ4/6XlgqoXL3uU/s1600/PICT0001.JPG

I use mostly rotted wood, some wood shaving, some little twigs and some composted dirt. I think leafs would be also good material. 
I think anything what animals (squirrels, mouses, birds) would put into the tree hollow is good for that. 

You ask how the bees don't carry it out? I have no idea  they just don't  I use these boxes almost all this passing year (form early June) and there was no pile in front of any of my hives that got this "eco floor".  Maybe they like them? Maybe the stuff is too haevy for them?...


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## beepro

So I have read if memory is correct that a spcific mites with big claws that
eat the varroa mites living in the soil but is harmless to the honey bees. There is a website to grow them
in the lab and sell them. Cannot remember the name of this predatory mites. Would be interesting to see if
they can grow inside the hive too. Do you know?
And if your eco box is good for the bees then do you have to wet the soil from
time to time? Also, the moisture will rot out your wooden bottom over time. 
Do you think it is a concern over time?


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## BeesFromPoland

this mite You talk about is Hypoaspis miles also called (new species name) stratiolaelaps scimitus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoaspis_miles; http://www.evergreengrowers.com/stratiolaelaps-scimitus-womersley-hypoaspis.html

I thought of experimenting with it next year in these "eco boxes". But probably it would be difficult to sustain them. 
This year I didn't do anything (like moisturing etc). Just put the soil in the hive to see how it works out. I found it was dry all the year - so probably the mite would die without moisturing... But I will see how is it in the spring and how the bees are doing with it.
Probably the boxes will rot it time. however they costed me 5 $ per one. Not such big money, isn't it?  I'm sure they would last at least 5 years (1$ per year). If the soil would be dry they would probably last longer.


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## beepro

Well, if you don't have 2000 hives to play with then not much of
a expense. Here we have free shipping pallets to be use for these
bottom boxes. And if you line them with heavy duty aluminum foil or
the thin tin sheets then the box will last longer. And painting the
outside then waterproofing them too. Will probably last 10 years or so.
Since I use the cheap LP composite particle boards for my hive boxes, this
will give me an idea for these eco boxes too. Lined the bottom half with
aluminum foil and then put in the substrates. Maybe to order some of these
mites for my little bee experiment too.


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## 1102009

This boxes are great! I will do something like that in the spring but will use it for the scorpion and put it under my boxes. Since I have open floors, microfauna may enter the hives.

Barry, good question: 


> But at some point, the mites are going to die with the bees. Isn't timing then fairly critical to how this plays out? For sure there are variables to each location and timing of treatments, but I wonder what the real impact is either way. Is it measurable or are we all just guessing or assuming?


My treated hive last year had a downfall of -30 mites per day but they never swarmed. Doing my sugarshakes I took off -1000mites, then downfall was under ten and none in november. I think they would have made it, but they had chalk brood too, so not enough bees for winter.
So without robbing it is maybe no problem. But I would never do nothing and just let them die.
I don`t see the sugar as treatment, so it could prevent reinfestation.

Since I was an ignorant bee owner last year and now I call myself a bee keeper, this discussion is very important, please guys, go on.

I have carni bees which are not of a tf vsh line, The carnicas are of troisek and peschetz lines, they are regressed to small cells never treated and selected for 6-7 years now. They superseded themselves and are mutts now.
No vsh queen was introduced.
They went through a crisis when a migrating beekeeper came near bringing his mites. Mine are survivors of that crisis.
I maintain that they are mite tolerant (resistant?). 
My AMM got a vsh queen 2 years ago. 
I saw no difference in hygienic behavior between the races or hybrids, but between the colonies. The only difference is the more aggressive behavior of the AMM hybrids.


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## Juhani Lunden

SiWolKe said:


> Doing my sugarshakes I took off -1000mites, then downfall was under ten and none in november. .I don`t see the sugar as treatment,


I don´t think you can say you are TF.


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## 1102009

Understood. Juhani, this was my first hive, not the colonies I`ve got now. These are without mite problems for the moment.

Please, guys give your opinions. If you see this as treatment, I will refrain from doing this in future. 
My mentor not using this, too. He combines or changes the queen, forcing a brood brake or splits.


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## BeesFromPoland

beepro said:


> Well, if you don't have 2000 hives to play with then not much of
> a expense. Here we have free shipping pallets to be use for these
> bottom boxes.


Beepro,
I don't do maths like this 
The cost of this box is 1/2 - 2/3 prize of the jar of honey here in Poland. If I have 2000 hives than I have 2000 times that income from beekeeping, don't I? (I know - simplification). I think much more "expensive" is wintering on honey (probably 15 or 20 times more) - however I still want to do that. So I count this 1$ per year for a hive, not for an apiary... Big apiary is big investment but also bigger income, isn't it?
The same You could count that if You have 2000 hives You need that much supers or frames... but still You buy (make) them, because that is what Your bees (and Your business) may need.

I think row wood is better - even if it lasts shorter. It "breaths", it is a natural material, it sustains bacteries, fungus etc.
As for rotting of this box... I don't mind that. I like what Charles Martin Simon wrote - and I find it eaqually convincing theory as "eco floor",
Here: http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/charles-martin-simon/principles-of-beekeeping-backwards/
and here: http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/charles-martin-simon/more-beekeeping-backwards/
Whatever one does I think that "natural/organic beekeeper" should read the texts. I found them both informative and amusing. They made me overthink my choices in beekeeping. They made me also look differently on beekeeping, the bee, and the death of the bees... 



as for sugar - in my opinion it is treatment. anything that takes varroa pressure off is treatment. I like this method: http://forum.tfbees.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=42


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## 1102009

Thanks BFP for the link.


> Allow the natural selective pressure to weed out the weakest hives for you.


How I would love doing it like that, but for me it`s not possible. I`m an island in a see of treating beekeepers, my only advantage is that I`m on an isolated island.( but not enough for queen breeding and my own drones)
And I´m watched by the bee inspector, who knows what I do and will tolerate it so far.

I will not treat my tf with sugar, by the way.


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## Michael Bush

Donating queens to the beekeepers around you can help saturate the area with the genetics you want. Raise your own queens. Give them cells to requeen their hives and it won't cost you much in resources.


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## BeesFromPoland

Michael Bush said:


> Donating queens to the beekeepers around you can help saturate the area with the genetics you want. Raise your own queens. Give them cells to requeen their hives and it won't cost you much in resources.


this is a good idea - I thought a lot of this... However... (there is always however  ) for now my queens didn't show anything... since most of them are "half feral" AMM (and I find this beeing advantage), probably most beekeepers wouldn't want them... they know how to sting (not that they are agressive, they just know how to protect themselves  ), they know how to reproduce (by swarming). Beekeepers don't like that..

But I will try to talk somebody to take some of the daughters of Elgons from Mr Osterlund and bees from Juhani Lunden. Maybe they would want them... But I've got them mix'ed already...
In 2 - 3 years if I would be able to say - "my apiary is still there off treatments" probably it would be easier to convince them to these bees. Not now... 



Sibylle don't think it is impossible!


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## GBF

johngfoster said:


> Actually, this is kinda "backwards thinking". True, there is something similar to "herd immunity" for the TF beekeeper, but we need to be careful calling it "immunity". Treatments are actually the opposite of immunity. It would be like if someone developed a "cure" for Chicken Pox, instead of a vaccination, or letting people develop their own immunity to it.
> 
> Immunity is actually the body's natural ability to fight disease WITHOUT the use of treatments. And developing strains of bees that are naturally resistant (immune?) to pests, actually will benefit the whole beekeeping community in the long run (herd immunity). Eventually, after treating with the antivirals, we would start to see resistant strains of the virus developing, and the problem would get worse. The better approach is to develop immunity. I wish there was a way we could give our bees a vaccination instead of an antibiotic or other "treatment". Very different thing.


What human needs in while living his life - just immunity? Of course no... Any creature needs in complex of abilities and immunity is one of them. The same with bees which struggle against varroa.


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## 1102009

Michael Bush said:


> Donating queens to the beekeepers around you can help saturate the area with the genetics you want. Raise your own queens. Give them cells to requeen their hives and it won't cost you much in resources.


Great idea! My bee splits had over 20 queen cells, so enough material. Even my mutts (Carni- Buckfast, AMM-Carni-Buckfast) had no mite problems this year. Let`s see how they fare next year. I will learn about grafting and selection.



> Sibylle don't think it is impossible!


Hey, thanks for giving me courage. 
Maybe we can exchange some queens sometimes or work together...
I have one colony AMM hybrids, which are really not nice. They trail you 500m and you have to wait 10 minutes until they give up. This could be a problem in our wildlife park because of the visitors. The fence is 600m distance.
Since not all my 3 AMM hives are the same, maybe they had some stress. 
In spring, if they survive, I will see.

Those beekeepers around me who know about my Dee Lusby beekeeping are very interested and want me to speak about it at the local club.
But it`s too fast for me, I want more experience.


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## jadebees

The area I live in, is very remote. The closest apiary is 20 miles. All my bees are caught local feral swarms. And, these bees have mites. If you prevent swarming, as normal in beekeeping, the mite give as many problems as any commercial apiary. It seems to me, rather than resistance, the feral bees are surviving by out breeding the mites, moving often, natural brood breaks, swarming and such. Some are better than others, but these bees will slowly fail from mites without treatment. The one advantage is that the mites are not resistant, and can be very minimally treated. One hive went 2 1/2 years, only requiring treating this September...and those mites are easily controlled, when treated less often. But, I may be seeing an advantage from natural comb, in Warre hives, and foundationless Langstroth hives. Thats all i use, the bees draw their own comb. It seems to help if they do not have lots of surplus comb also. When I was TF, I learned the value of splitting early and often. Brood breaks, natural or splits, help a lot. I think it is that trait, as much as anything, contributing to feral bee survival. The older hives develop problems in many cases. The big challenge for me is to produce honey from many small colonies. I may end up with 100's of 5 kilo producers. One never knows, thankfully I dont make my living beekeeping.


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## aunt betty

It is absurd to think that we have any right to tell neighboring beeks how and what or what not to do (to preserve our bees health).
We're not bee czars. 
It's a MYOB thing.


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## jadebees

Aunt Betty, I agree with you 100%. That is incomprehensible in any nation not steeped in socialism.


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## camero7

Ever hear of the common good? Lots of things we don't want to do but must, like taxes, vaccinations, pesticide spraying,etc. Not socialism, it's life in a civilized society.


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## jadebees

Forced conformity is a socialist hallmark. Perhaps, the TF beekeepers will be the only common good available, when mites are fully resistant due to treatments.


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## camero7

so·cial·ism
ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
_noun_
noun: *socialism*
a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.


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## sqkcrk

camero7 said:


> so·cial·ism
> ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
> _noun_
> noun: *socialism*
> a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.


As found inside of a bee hive?


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## Oldtimer

No bees are different.

The problem with humans is that we are essentially selfish creatures. Hence to make socialism work, dictatorship combined with extreme punishment for breaking the rules is required.

The people eventually, if they get opportunity, throw off the dictatorship.


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## camero7

Maybe we could learn from them


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## Oldtimer

In an ideal world.


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## crofter

It is really hard to make a stable system if parts of it are contrary to the instinctual behavior of the animal. The question is how much of the animals behaviour is hardwired and how much is learned behaviour. You can herd sheep, you can herd elephants but man is like trying to herd cats! Just too much trouble to be worth the effort!


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## Oldtimer

crofter said:


> It is really hard to make a stable system if parts of it are contrary to the instinctual behavior of the animal.


A very wise insight, and can be applied to the management of both bees, and people, with good results.


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## aunt betty

There is a feral colony just down the street. It's in an apartment complex. Sure I'd like to raise H and demand that they remove it.

However: that colony has been casting swarms for many years. Those bees take care of themselves because they're 25' off the ground in a soffit. The complex can't find the money to pay to get them removed so I'm stuck with a nuisance in my area. 
I'm minding my own business until (UNTIL) I have an extreme collapse and can prove it's from that colony. Proof? lol
It's beyond my ability to control all the honeybees in this corner of the city and I'm not even going to try. Just roll with the punches and be a good beekeeper. It is really all we can do imo. 

P.S. I seem to be pretty good at keeping bees so far.


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## jadebees

@ aunt betty, it goes both ways, that wild colony cannot be much of a mite source, or it would have died or moved out completely to another location. Takes about 18 months, unless some other factor is helping them out.


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## crofter

jadebees said:


> @ aunt betty, it goes both ways, that wild colony cannot be much of a mite source, or it would have died or moved out completely to another location. Takes about 18 months, unless some other factor is helping them out.


I dont think anybody knows how many times the colony in that location may have done just that- died or moved out- to be robbed or cleaned out and repopulated by new swarms. That is a mechanism that could be behind a lot of reports of survivalistic feral bees. (Heck at some times that location could be headed by a marked queen that might have come from California or Florida).


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## jadebees

The swarming behavior is likely why there are any survivor feral bees here. I got a swarm this year that had abandoned their hive in a water valve box, due to mites. That comb was a mess, it was so infested. They left viable brood , honey, and 1000's of mites. Thankfully that breaks the breeding cycle of mites, maybe it is a way of adapting. I quarantined them in an outyard. They absconded, before making any comb. I think they were very uncomfortable. So off they go to leave mites every where. If they lived they are next years wild mite bomb. But no worse than someones treatment resistant mites.


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## aunt betty

jadebees said:


> @ aunt betty, it goes both ways, that wild colony cannot be much of a mite source, or it would have died or moved out completely to another location. Takes about 18 months, unless some other factor is helping them out.


I figure that if there is one known colony that probably ten unknowns are out there. Point is I can not control all the bees in my area. Not possible. A few years ago the university lost all their bees. They all took off and "gone". Most likely they're still around, just found new homes. Have found some very healthy colonies in trees and weird places like in columns at a fraternity on campus.


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## jadebees

It's very telling, that in the city or rural areas, mites cause the same behavior.


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## crofter

Jadebees, just to quibble about treatment resistant mites; not all treatments have created established adaptive resistance by the mites. Coumaphos, fluvalinate and maybe some others when being used off label, but there does not seem to be any documented resistance to oxalic acid, formic acid, thymol etc. I think both sides in this argument are using some anecdotal boogymen to validate their positions.

I am in the unique and selfish position of being isolated from other kept bees and there are no feral survivors know in this area. I would look with a very jaundiced eye on anyone bringing bees near me. The odds (not facts) point to very much lower survivability amongst the untreated bees in far northern ontario. There are a few isolated areas but I think even they are treating prophylactically lest the mites sneak in and get a toehold: that would describe me.

We can do fortunetelling and predict that this or that is going to surely happen if we do, or dont do, this or that, but we don't know if it is so. Time will tell how things unfold.


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## jadebees

Crofter, you are in a good position there. It's too late here, all the wild bees here have mites. But, they still do better than commercial strains of bees here. I know of a large pollinator, at the start of the epidemic , that would sell hives rather than cope with mass treating. Probably the source of this region's endemic mite population. But, those bees decendants are surviving, after a big die-off. And the mites have mostly lost their resistance to fluvvalin. Or any treatments, except for imported bees. And those are the sources of resistant mites around here now. Careful, minimal treatment is neccesary here. Treatment free means dead bees here. I'm in east central Arizona, at 6800 ft. elevation. We get 4 seasons here. But feral bees survive here. It means people just deal with it. But, wild mutt bees are very different.


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## BeesFromPoland

the conclusions for me are:
1. all the world is the same 
2. one cannot look on the others, because one would not do anything at all - You should do whatever You think is best and don't look on the others. 
3. treating beekeepers would do more harm to TF apiary rather than the other way round. 
4. having or establishing feral population or having big enough apiary may be the key to success.
5. one cannot establish fully resistant stock - it is a constant struggle until everybody stop treating (so: never). 

Perhaps I could draw some more conclusions but these probably are the main ones. Your discussion confirmed all I knew/thought. Thanks for all the info. 

ps. 
6. Even I'm not old enough to remember everything, I probably know more about socialism than You  lol


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## BeesFromPoland

SiWolKe said:


> Hey, thanks for giving me courage.
> Maybe we can exchange some queens sometimes or work together...
> I have one colony AMM hybrids, which are really not nice. They trail you 500m and you have to wait 10 minutes until they give up. This could be a problem in our wildlife park because of the visitors. The fence is 600m distance.
> Since not all my 3 AMM hives are the same, maybe they had some stress.
> In spring, if they survive, I will see.
> 
> Those beekeepers around me who know about my Dee Lusby beekeeping are very interested and want me to speak about it at the local club.
> But it`s too fast for me, I want more experience.


I'm looking forward to cooperate with anybody that wishes it, and have similar goal to mine.  In Poland we made cooperation (association) of beekeepers, and few of us went TF this year. 
In my apiary there is almost no varroa pressure this year (as I wrote: last year lots of bees and lots of mites died, so probably varroa pressure returns 2016), however couple of my friends in other parts of Poland started losing some hives already. Survivors would probably be a good material.

My AMM hybrids know a lot about stinging too  

do You know this man? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_qdElx-D8Q
What I found he does not treat since 2003


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## Oldtimer

I do not agree with point 1 and 2, and maybe 3. Let's see if you still feel the same way in a couple of years.



BeesFromPoland said:


> Your discussion confirmed all I knew/thought.


This is normal. Most people start threads to confirm their viewpoint, not many come out with a different view.



BeesFromPoland said:


> Even I'm not old enough to remember everything, I probably know more about socialism than You  lol


You have my admiration. I remember following the struggle in Poland with huge interest, very brave people, and their efforts opened the way towards a better world.


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## BeesFromPoland

Oldtimer said:


> I do not agree with point 1 and 2, and maybe 3. Let's see if you still feel the same way in a couple of years.
> 
> This is normal. Most people start threads to confirm their viewpoint, not many come out with a different view.
> 
> You have my admiration. I remember following the struggle in Poland with huge interest, very brave people, and their efforts opened the way towards a better world.



as for 1. 
I ment that people all the world don't always agree even if the neigbour does sth with success. So I ment rather people, and I didn't mean that the conditions all over the world are the same etc. 

For 2. 
I ment one should do the best one can, while thinking also of others, but not always listen to their advice or arguments - but NOT to do against others. 

so probably we may think the same on 1 and 2 , but I was not precise enough... English is not my first language... 


Thanks. true - as nation we had harsh history. But each nation has some problems and struggles.


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## Oldtimer

Oh, now I understand, thanks for explaining.


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## Eduardo Gomes

BeesFromPoland said:


> so probably we may think the same on 1 and 2 , but I was not precise enough... English is not my first language...


I know what you go through when beyond the content the way it presents the content also counts. Best of luck for your efforts and I hope that you do not forget the opening words of squarepeg at #2.


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## GBF

BeesFromPoland said:


> 5. one cannot establish fully resistant stock - it is a constant struggle until everybody stop treating (so: never).


Think opposite. Everybody stops treating when see that somebody has a constantly succses with TF stock.


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## Michael Bush

>5. one cannot establish fully resistant stock - it is a constant struggle until everybody stop treating (so: never). 

Here, at least, everyone DID stop treating for Tracheal mites when the Varroa showed up and we got over Tracheal mites. I see some hope that eventually everyone will quit treating for Varroa. I just hope it doesn't take Tropilaelaps arriving to bring it about..


----------



## Clayton Huestis

> I think I've said this before. NY samples my bees. In July a few years ago, my 20 + yards rolled 0-2 mites. Two apiaries next to a TF beekeeper rolled 13-15.
> 
> Why?


It might be timing Mike. A TF yard will have a higher mite population in july then someone who treats might be comfortable with. Come first two weeks of august the bees will clean house between summer and fall flow purging the broodnest biting the mites and tossing larvae or chewing them out. That was back in my early TF days now I don't see it on that level anymore. Fall drones seem to take much of the hit now. The whole season I saw one chewed up worker in july the very month you question (and I was looking hard to find it). BTW your queen lines I have from 2010 are still going nice, TF going into there 5th winter. Not sure if that is the issue can only speculate about drifting. I'd recommend treating later if you can.


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## Oldtimer

Mike do you really think your example is good for varroa mites? 

You are correct that tracheal mites cleared up when people did not treat them but you forgot to mention they also cleared up when people were treating them.

After tracheal mites cleared up, people stopped treating for them. Consistent with the post by GBF.

As an aside, treatment free dogma is that large cell bees caused tracheal mites and this is used as one of the planks in the lectures about the evils of large cell bees. The theory may be true, or may be not true, it's pure conjecture nobody knows. What we do know as a fact is it was large cell bees that conquered tracheal mites and cleared them up, treated or not.


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## Michael Bush

>You are correct that tracheal mites cleared up when people did not treat them but you forgot to mention they also cleared up when people were treating them.

I didn't see them clear up in the US until most people stopped treating.

>As an aside, treatment free dogma is that large cell bees caused tracheal mites

Where is this "dogma". Apparently there is a treatment free "Bible" and I'm not aware of it. Has anyone every purported that? Yes. Do most treatment free beekeepers believe that? i seriously doubt it. Is it a possibility? Yes it is a possibility when you consider that it seems to be a common theory that one of the Acarapis (vagans, externus or dorsalis) made the jump to living in the trachea and became Acarapis woodi. We just don't know what the trigger was.

> and this is used as one of the planks in the lectures about the evils of large cell bees. 

"the" planks? "the" lectures? It must be in that Treatment free "bible" that you have and I don't... I've always had my own opinions as do most treatment free beekeepers I know and I don't know of any dogma, or planks, or lectures. I don't really have "planks" but if I did, that would not be one of them.

>The theory may be true, or may be not true, it's pure conjecture nobody knows.

Exactly.

> What we do know as a fact is it was large cell bees that conquered tracheal mites and cleared them up, treated or not.

What we do know is that ALL the bees conquered tracheal mites and cleared them up, large cell and small cell, domestic and feral. But the timing here at least was when people started worrying about Varroa instead of tracheal mites. Which would indicate that the "solution" was probably genetic. Probably an inheritable behavior. And allowing selection for it would be part of the process of getting those genetics.


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## Oldtimer

Oh please Michael.

You are going to tell me this is all my imagination?

The idea that tracheal mites were caused by large cell foundation is a "plank" in Dee Lusbys lectures as you well know, and most of the small cell gurus to follow after learned from her and got their ideas from her.
Why play word games or pretend, you yourself have mentioned or implied it many times, as per the example below



Michael Bush said:


> Scientists all seem to be in agreement that Acarapis woodi evolved somewhere between about 1891 and 1901 when either Acarapis dorsalis, Acarpis externus or Acrapis vagans made an evolutionary leap and moved into the trachea. The idea that perhaps large foundation contributed is not any more far fetched.


Having said all that, even I am not disputing that the idea is possible, just, it's far from proven. Personally I think it more likely that tracheal mites lived unnoticed in bee strains that could tolerate them, but became a problem when transported to places like Britain with bee populations unable to deal with them, hence the extermination or near extermination of the British bee. Once that process played itself out around the world, tracheal mites returned to their original status of a minor irritant.


----------



## crofter

If we dont know why tracheal mites have gone away, only that it happened at the time people began to worry about varroa, it cannot be stated that tracheal mites went away simply because they were no longer treated for. I think there is flawed logic in claiming that to be _essentially_ true. I think the line of thought that the varroa treatments as a side effect also did in the tracheal mites, carries more weight. Since we are talking about probabilites not certainties I will put my money on that one.
Mind you if someone really, really, wants to believe their vision is supreme they usually manage a way to become comfortable with it. Seems to often require some convoluted chain of connectedness though to hold it all together. 

Small change in the big picture.


----------



## Michael Bush

>The idea that tracheal mites were caused by large cell foundation is a "plank" in Dee Lusbys lectures as you well know, and most of the small cell gurus to follow after learned from her and got their ideas from her.

So you think every treatment free beekeeper believes everything that Dee Lusby says? I don't believe "everything" that anyone says. Certainly when you go down the same "road" you will come to some of the same conclusions but sometimes you will come to different conclusions. You are mistaken assuming that there is some dogma somewhere that all treatment free beekeepers are following.

>Why play word games or pretend, you yourself have mentioned or implied it many times, as per the example below

I am not. I have several times put the theory out there for consideration. I neither believe nor disbelieve it. It's just an interesting theory.

>>Scientists all seem to be in agreement that Acarapis woodi evolved somewhere between about 1891 and 1901 when either Acarapis dorsalis, Acarpis externus or Acrapis vagans made an evolutionary leap and moved into the trachea. The idea that perhaps large foundation contributed is not any more far fetched.

>Having said all that, even I am not disputing that the idea is possible, just, it's far from proven. 

I think you just quoted me agreeing with you. It is possible. It is far from proven. I just said that someone thinking that small cell was the trigger is no more far fetched than attributing it to a random evolutionary occurrence. You just said it was possible. I am certainly not saying that is what happened. I have no idea how it came to pass. Where are we disagreeing on this point?


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## Oldtimer

Michael Bush said:


> So you think every treatment free beekeeper believes everything that Dee Lusby says?


No I don't think that of *every* treatment free beekeeper, nor did I say that. Rather than imply I said something I didn't, you could refresh your memory by reviewing what I really said which was "The idea that tracheal mites were caused by large cell foundation is a "plank" in Dee Lusbys lectures as you well know, and most of the small cell gurus to follow after learned from her and got their ideas from her". And that is a fact.

Of course I realise not all TF beekeepers are the same, just like the rest of humanity are not all the same. I also realise there are differences and divisions among the TF community and even the gurus. Even though most of the gurus started off under and learning from Dee, as time has passed and people have learned more, some of Dees teachings are becoming increasingly rejected. I am well aware of that, but none the less, she is still the "mother" of the small cell movement. But my statement about this tracheal mite theory being a plank in Dees TF and small cell lectures stands as correct, it is. While not everyone believes it or has even heard of it, there are those who have bought in. Pointless trying to deny.



Michael Bush said:


> I think you just quoted me agreeing with you.


Indeed I did. Why assume I disagree with you on everything, I agree with you on much. But I do have a tendency to enjoy working with facts and reject conjecture.


----------



## Michael Palmer

Michael Bush said:


> I am not. I have several times put the theory out there for consideration. I neither believe nor disbelieve it. It's just an interesting theory.


Then you should have said that....Remember when I was in your apiary. Who else was there? Dean and Ramona, Dee, others? I pointed out the chilled and dying small clusters of K-Winged bees that were all over your apiary. On the ground, the fence post, the outer covers...I brought attention to them and related that if I saw that in my Vermont apiaries, I would suspect high Tracheal mite levels. Dee went on about small cell bees not being effected by Tracheal mites. 

You never said anything, so I assumed you had small cell bees and believed in what she said. My mistake?


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## sqkcrk

I can imagine what was going on there, can't you? I would feel intimidated by Dee were I in that situation.


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## Fusion_power

Interesting repartee'. Brother Adam wrote from direct experience dealing with tracheal mites. He accurately described the effects with k-wing bees crawling out of the hive in mid-winter, and he described the "cure" which was to breed resistant bees. His experience was in the 1920's some 60 odd years before tracheal mites reached the U.S. My bees all died in 1988 from tracheal mites. I rebuilt with Buckfast stock and ignored tracheal mites from that point forward. My bees died from varroa mites in 1993/1994. I rebuilt again first by treating for varroa and eventually with resistant stock. Today I ignore varroa mites. I had the best honey crops of my life between 1989 and 1992 when using Buckfast stock. Today I have decent honey crops, but really need to work on the swarming impulse in my stock.

I'll address the issues at stake by noting that while I use small cell, I do not ascribe survival of my bees to doing so. I can just as easily put my bees on large cell, and have done so several times in the last 5 years, and they will survive just fine sans treatments. What I did find was that small cell creates a small bias effect which allows an otherwise marginal colony to survive heavy varroa infestation. Once my bees were primarily of varroa tolerant lines, small cell seems to have no effect one way or another.

Tell you what Oldtimer. I'll quit treating my bees for varroa and you quit treating yours. Lets see which of us is still keeping bees 2 years from now. Please take this with a smile, I know your bees are maintained by treatment where mine have not been treated in 11 years.


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## Oldtimer

FP I would have no bees in 2 years. What's your point, what do you propose I do about that? Any brainwaves how I can do things better in New Zealand let's hear it.

I will remind you that I know of 2 overseas "experts" on small cell and TF beekeeping who have come to my country and tried it. One of them arrived with a bang on our local forum with a superior attitude and telling everyone nobody in NZ knew what they were doing and he was going to educate us. It had been easy for him overseas he just "did it"', he would show all the non believers that NZ was no different. Called me an idiot because I insulted he said, Dee Lusby, who he considered like his mother, so I had insulted his mother. (Yes it's true, he actually said that).
Anyhow he set up around 50 hives in his first season and I'll give it to him he was a hard worker, he made all his SC foundation by hand.

After making a lot of noise he grew mysteriously quite on the forum. Later found out from a friend of his who told me he was down to 3 hives and those 3 looked like they would be dead any day.

So if you think you pretty clever FP and want to be expert number 3 maybe you better come here try your luck, and show us how to do it LOL. You better know something that nobody else does though. 

Do you think beekeeping is local? I can tell you it is.


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## Oldtimer

Michael Bush said:


> Where is this "dogma".


Where is dogma? it's in peoples minds. A commonly held definition of "dogma" is a fixed and unshakeable belief in something, even when facts in plain view point otherwise.

An example of "dogma" might be, just as a random, hypothetical, example, a small cell beekeeper who believes small cell bees do not get tracheal mites. Even when there are bees dying of tracheal mites all over the small cell bee yard, the beekeeper still holds to the "dogma" that small cell bees do not get tracheal mites.


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## JWChesnut

Tracheal mites have not gone away, and resistance is not guaranteed. I, today, have a serious outbreak in a 24 colony new apiary stocked with F1 queens from a May 2015 VP VSH-Italian breeder and a VP Pol-Line breeeder. I was managing this new yard as a second TF // Foundationless production yard to serve the market of the hobbyists that demand the FL-TF magic dust.

Tracheal mite for me have always hit hard in December-January resulting in chilled crawlers. I dissect the bees for diagnosis.

What I believe has occured with Tracheal is the hobbyist didn't see the disease because their varroa-infested colonies died in October and November before the Tracheal expressed. Tracheal mites (if you have experience with them you will know this) can really explode in just weeks at the end of the brood season.

The TF preachers have captured enough mindshare with their "story" that in my region most hobbyists don't treat in the magical belief they are breeding survivors -- the stunning death rate from this concept means the other illnesses (AFB and Tracheal) are not seen as frequently. In fact AFB incidence is way down -- it is a slow disease and varroa collapse is much more rapid. In the past few years, we are seeing much more AFB in hobby hives -- and the spread of the Varroa resistance traits may be responsible, due to marginally better survival of those bloodlines.


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## Fusion_power

> FP I would have no bees in 2 years. What's your point, what do you propose I do about that?


The point was to get you to direct a few bullets away from MB. He is not the enemy. Neither am I. What I wish could be done is to ship a few queens of treatment free stock into NZ and see how they hold up. Barring that, import some semen from drones of treatment free stock and see if that could jump-start your breeding work. So just asking, what would it take for you to bring in some stock?


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## Oldtimer

Fusion_power said:


> The point was to get you to direct a few bullets away from MB.


OH MB does not need you to look after him he certainly tries to give me as good as he gets. But anyway about the firing bullets analogy, it's about as poor as the tracheal mite analogy. I argued my case, and few would see it as unreasonable. Didn't shoot any bullets right at Michael.



Fusion_power said:


> So just asking, what would it take for you to bring in some stock?


Some jail time.

As to the concept of bringing in some TF stock, I have already stated that I think that might work and you know that. The principle of resistant genetics I believe in, just, we don't seem to have them here. Regardless how many people from elsewhere tell me we are just a bunch of lousy beekeepers over here. (Until they try it).


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## JWChesnut

I am skeptical of the triumphalist accounts that characterize the TF anecdotes. I find it interesting that there exist first-person accounts of the very same apiaries which make radically different observations of these "miracle" colonies.


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## Michael Bush

>You never said anything, so I assumed you had small cell bees and believed in what she said. My mistake?

First, Dee may be right. Second, have you ever had a argument with Dee? There is no hope of it being productive unless you have some real facts to present. I have no facts to present on either side of this argument.


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## Oldtimer




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## sqkcrk

Michael Bush said:


> >You never said anything, so I assumed you had small cell bees and believed in what she said. My mistake?
> 
> First, Dee may be right. Second, have you ever had a argument with Dee? There is no hope of it being productive unless you have some real facts to present. I have no facts to present on either side of this argument.


Does she? Or just force of will and personality.


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## jwcarlson

Michael Bush said:


> I have no facts to present on either side of this argument.





Michael Palmer said:


> I pointed out the chilled and dying small clusters of K-Winged bees that were all over your apiary. On the ground, the fence post, the outer covers...I brought attention to them and related that if I saw that in my Vermont apiaries, I would suspect high Tracheal mite levels. Dee went on about small cell bees not being effected by Tracheal mites.


The clusters of K-Wing bees aren't "facts"?


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## 1102009

> Überraschenderweise erwies sich die lederbraune Kombination dagegen nahezu als immun gegen die Tracheenmilbe und überraschen in jeder anderen Hinsicht und ist einer der Kombinationen, die einen entscheidenden Einfluß auf die Entwicklung der heutigen Buckfast-Biene ausübte überdies zeigte dieses Beispiel eindeutig, *daß wir nur auf dem Weg der Kreuzungszucht* Eigenschaftsverbindungen erstellen können, die sonst ausgeschlossen sind. Diese Zuchtweise ist die alleinige, weiche unseren neuzeitlichen Anforderungen nachkommen kann. Besonders in der Bekämpfung der Bienenkrankheiten.


This is a quote from the diary of Bruder Adam.
When the tracheal mites came to his apiary, more than half of his local dark bee hives died, only the carnicas and ligusticas survived, so he started to breed his buckfast bees using drones from the survivor black bee stock....
He believed that the LOCAL DISEASE RESISTANCES could only be achieved by combining races with the most wanted characteristics and should be preserved after.

And what happened to him? 
It was said he breeded bastards. And see, how much success the buckfast bees nowadays have. They are distributed around the whole world.

So every beekeeper has his own situation which can`t be compared. 
That`s what Dee says too, start with your local stock.
Perhaps have a crisis, then go on, so what?

It`s human behavior always to think, one is the only person to see the light.


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## Michael Palmer

Michael Bush said:


> First, Dee may be right. Second, have you ever had a argument with Dee?


But, she's not. Merely selecting from the strongest over wintered colonies to raise your new queen stock results in TM becoming a minor issue. In my case, it had nothing to do with Small Cell. 

Of course I've had arguments with Dee. While she is hugely opinionated and stubborn, and convinced she is correct in all things honeybee, I still argue. If I have to listen to her, she's going to have to listen to me.


----------



## Michael Palmer

SiWolKe said:


> That`s what Dee says too, start with your local stock.


Well, she has said way more than that. Her insistence that AFB brood disease came about because humans artificially enlarged the cells is just plain wrong. And her insistence that small cell bees aren't effected by TM is ridiculous. If the stoma were so small as to prevent the microscopic TM from entering, how are the bees supposed to breathe? And telling beekeepers that feeding honey bought at health food stores is an acceptable practice is outrageous. Her theory that it is safe practice because the bees will chew up any AFB spores is, well, dangerous and unacceptable. 

And, I could go on and on.


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## Juhani Lunden

SiWolKe said:


> , only the carnicas and ligusticas survived,


Correction: Only the crossings between English black bee and Italian bee and pure Italians survived. 

Where does he state that he had carnica bees at that time? He tried to cross carnica later in many occasion with buckfast, but with poor results. The swarming behaviour was too strong in the crossings. 

http://www.pedigreeapis.org/elver/ori/origin-en.html


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## JWChesnut

In my recent outbreak (restricted to VSH-Italian and Pol-Line F1 daughters), Tracheal resistance appears to have been lost. 

I believe this indicates the risk involved in selecting narrow lineages.

There is no doubt that Pol-Line and VSH exhibit Varroa response. The selection against this trait likely narrowed the diversity and result in the recurrence of TM. The Pol-Line surprised me, because I understood these to have been tested under "real world" conditions. Perhaps once the TM entered epidemic phase, the infection spread to them.


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## 1102009

Juhani Lunden said:


> Correction: Only the crossings between English black bee and Italian bee and pure Italians survived.
> 
> Where does he state that he had carnica bees at that time? He tried to cross carnica later in many occasion with buckfast, but with poor results. The swarming behaviour was too strong in the crossings.
> 
> http://www.pedigreeapis.org/elver/ori/origin-en.html


Diary:
>In der Tat war es eine Katastrophe. Der Bienenstand des Klosters ist durch die Tracheenmilbe verheert. Von 46 Völkern sind noch 16 da: nur diejenigen mit Carnica- und Ligusticabienen. Alle einheimischen Bienenvölker sind zusammengebrochen.
_It was a catastrophe! The apiary is destroyed. There are 16 Hives out of 46 still alive, only those with Carnica- and Ligustica. All others are dead._
1917
Entstehung des Grundstocks der Buckfastbiene, der ersten Kreuzungen : Lederbraune Ligusticabiene x Drohnen der alten, einheimischen Biene.
_Start of the buckfast breeding: Ligustica and drones of black local bees._

But if your source is right, he still breeded with different races. 

MP: 


> And telling beekeepers that feeding honey bought at health food stores is an acceptable practice is outrageous. Her theory that it is safe practice because the bees will chew up any AFB spores is, well, dangerous and unacceptable.


I´m with you here. This is a most dangerous thing, I would never do. If you have no honey, feed syrup.
No guru is perfect!


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## Juhani Lunden

SiWolKe said:


> Diary:
> >In der Tat war es eine Katastrophe. Der Bienenstand des Klosters ist durch die Tracheenmilbe verheert. Von 46 Völkern sind noch 16 da: nur diejenigen mit Carnica- und Ligusticabienen.


What diary? A personal not published diary?


From my link:
Ursprung des Buckfast-Stammes

— Nach Bruder Adams eigenem mit der Schreibmaschine geschriebenen Dokument —
Übersetzung aus dem Englischen: Reiner Schwarz. 

1915 : Die letzte Saison in der die früher heimische Biene in der Umgebung existierte bevor sie durch die „Isle-Of-Wight-Krankheit“ ausgelöscht wurde. Im Herbst sagte der im Bezirk für die Bienenzucht zuständige Beamte voraus, daß im Frühjahr keine Bienen mehr da sein werden.
Von unseren 46 Völkern überlebten nur 16 den folgenden Winter. Die Überlebenden waren entweder reine ligurische Völker oder von ligurischer Abstammung.


----------



## 1102009

Juhani Lunden said:


> What diary? A personal not published diary?
> 
> 
> From my link:
> Ursprung des Buckfast-Stammes
> 
> — Nach Bruder Adams eigenem mit der Schreibmaschine geschriebenen Dokument —
> Übersetzung aus dem Englischen: Reiner Schwarz.
> 
> 1915 : Die letzte Saison in der die früher heimische Biene in der Umgebung existierte bevor sie durch die „Isle-Of-Wight-Krankheit“ ausgelöscht wurde. Im Herbst sagte der im Bezirk für die Bienenzucht zuständige Beamte voraus, daß im Frühjahr keine Bienen mehr da sein werden.
> Von unseren 46 Völkern überlebten nur 16 den folgenden Winter. Die Überlebenden waren entweder reine ligurische Völker oder von ligurischer Abstammung.


http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/biogde.html


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## Juhani Lunden

There seems to be a contradiction between our sources!

I must ask this from Jean-Marie!


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## 1102009

Juhani Lunden said:


> There seems to be a contradiction between our sources!
> 
> I must ask this from Jean-Marie!


Please do. I don`t want to give wrong information. Thanks.


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## Fusion_power

In Breeding The Honeybee, Brother Adam records that the Ligustica crosses survived and became the foundation of his Buckfast bees. He later integrated genetics from French strains and eventually from A.M. Sahariensis. I purchased queens from the line with French genetics in 1989 and in 1991 was able to purchase queens with the Saharan genetics. His later efforts to integrate Monticola genetics were unsuccessful prior to his death in 1996, but were carried on to development of Elgon bees about 20 years ago.


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## Oldtimer

SiWolKe said:


> No guru is perfect!


Agreed, although I suspect Brother Adam would be turning in his grave being called a Guru, I am sure he would have rejected the term.

In the beekeeping world it is mostly only prominent small cell or treatment free beekeepers who are referred to as Gurus. The rest of beekeepers including prominent scientists, researchers, etc in fields other than treatment free, are mostly just beekeepers like the rest of us. 

I do know of one exception being a guy with I think 2 years beekeeping experience who released a video series for sale and has titled himself on the cover as a Guru, however he is into permaculture, which perhaps he feels qualifies him.


----------



## 1102009

Oldtimer said:


> Agreed, although I suspect Brother Adam would be turning in his grave being called a Guru, I am sure he would have rejected the term.
> 
> In the beekeeping world it is mostly only prominent small cell or treatment free beekeepers who are referred to as Gurus. The rest of beekeepers including prominent scientists, researchers, etc in fields other than treatment free, are mostly just beekeepers like the rest of us.
> 
> I do know of one exception being a guy with I think 2 years beekeeping experience who released a video series for sale and has titled himself on the cover as a guru, however he is into permaculture, which perhaps he feels qualifies him.


Well, oldtimer, I ment Dee not Brother Adam, but since I´m using his system maybe he is a guru, too, but with a  
Calling yourself a guru being a 2 year beekeeper really is self-confident, or should I say self-important?
Permaculture is great so he is excused in my opinion 

Think, we all must use our brains and be skeptical to find our way or :ws:.


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## Oldtimer

True.


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## Juhani Lunden

Juhani Lunden said:


> There seems to be a contradiction between our sources!
> 
> I must ask this from Jean-Marie!


Here I how he answered to my e-mail, RZ= Raymond Zimmer:
"Explanation :
My page from a typed page comes directly from Brother Adam's documents. I had not yet them when I wrote (in French) the "a life - a bee." Then I pulled my data from Raymond Zimmer's book* explicitly talking about carnica and ligurica. But he really says that the elected was a ligurica combination.
I'm thinking that RZ received his data from discussions with BA
And it is possible that Brother Adam who was brief, eluded, in his text, the few carnica that he also rejected the next year.
Thanks a lot for your remark."

*) R. Zimmer : L'abeille Buckfast en Questions, 1st edition in 1985 => page 143 and 2d edition 1999, page 411 -"

There is no doubt that origin of buckfast is English black bees and Italian bee. The thing we are trying to figure out is weather there were carnica survivors in his yards in spring 1916. 




Fusion Power: there were a lot more races too. At the age of 82 he had still, besides 3 pure buckfast lines, 3 Anatolica lines, 3 Sahariensis lines, 3 Kreta lines, 3 Cecropia lines, 1 Carnica line, 1 Line Omani. * Also bees from Egypt were used in breeding. The Finnish black bees he also tried, but with no results. The French crossing was one of the first ones, very early years, maybe in the 30´s. 

Especially the Anatolica lines (from Turkey) are considered one of the best ones.


----------



## Michael Bush

>But, she's not. Merely selecting from the strongest over wintered colonies to raise your new queen stock results in TM becoming a minor issue. In my case, it had nothing to do with Small Cell. 

Agreed. The problem was solved genetically by the Tracheal mites killing off the stock that couldn't handle it. So whether or not large cell in any way contributed to the "leap" into the trachea of the other mites, is really irrelevant to solving the Tracheal mite problem.


----------



## Fusion_power

Juhani, This is a summary of what I recall from his books and from various articles in bee magazines over the years.

Buckfast is a combination of Mellifera, Ligustica, Cecropia, Anatolica, and eventually Saharensis.

Here is the list of species currently recognized with * beside those evaluated via crossbreeding and ** beside the races incorporated into the Buckfast line. He wrote about several of these though I do not know if he used them in breeding.

Northern Europe
A. m. mellifera **

Southern Europe
A. m. artemisia
A. m. carnica *
A. m. cecropia **
A. m. iberiensis
A. m. ligustica **
A. m. macedonica
A. m. madaros
A.m. ruttneri
A. m. siciliana
A. m. sossimai

Middle East
A. m. adami * - named for Brother Adam
A. m. anatoliaca **
A. m. caucasia *
A. m. cypria *
A. m. meda *
A. m. remipes
A. m. syriaca *
A. m. Pomonella

Africa
A. m. adansonii
A. m. capensis
A. m. intermissa
A. m. jemenitica * - based on your info that he evaluated bees from Oman
A. m. lamarckii *
A. m. litorea
A. m. monticola
A. m. sahariensis **
A. m. scutellata
A. m. unicolor


----------



## Oldtimer

Michael Bush said:


> So whether or not large cell in any way contributed to the "leap" into the trachea of the other mites, is really irrelevant to solving the Tracheal mite problem.


THe "leap"

What leap?

I thought we had decided that this "leap" was all conjecture, you had claimed to have no opinion on the matter either way, it was just an interesting theory, you said.

And yet here we have it being presented as a fact again. 

After, when it suited, you said "I have no facts to present on either side of this argument". 

Dogma?


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## deknow

Well, spivak clearly states (and ive never heard anyone contradict her on this) that TM were most definitely living on other parts of the bee (under the wing iirc, the vagan mite).
Attributing the jump to cell enlargement is conjecture, but the timing is about right, and no one has proposed another theory that I know of that would explain why the jump happened.

...this is a different question than if SC bees are inherently immune from TM....they could possibly have just been less likely to foster the environment that caused the jump.


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## JWChesnut

Michael Bush said:


> Yes it is a possibility when you consider that it seems to be a common theory that one of the Acarapis (vagans, externus or dorsalis) made the jump to living in the trachea and became Acarapis woodi. We just don't know what the trigger was.


The Eickworth "theory" that A. woodi evolved in 10 years (1890-1900) from an external parasite to A. woodi begars the imagination. It has been roundly debunked. See the monograph: PARASITIC MITES OF HONEY BEES: Life
History, Implications, and Impact by Diana Sammataro1, Uri Gerson2, and Glen Needham3 
http://stoppinginvasives.com/dotAsset/30f58462-e76d-4c1f-88e9-541335ef0fec.pdf








The Sammataro monograph cites compelling logic that the transition from skep hives with destructive honey harvesting to perennial frame hives accounts for the apparent "emergence" of the mite that primarily attacks over-wintering clusters.

It also cites numerous studies that correlate hygienic grooming with resistance, and not some magically shrinking tracheal opening.

Further demonstration comes from phylogenetic testing in Spain. Which shows that A. woodi sequences are discrete and independent of the other Acarapis genus. Source: https://www.researchgate.net/profil...)_colonies/links/54045a470cf2bba34c1c7503.pdf









The research confirms my supposition that naturally evolved TM resistance is over-promoted -- high mortality in TF colonies suppresses the over-wintering manifestation of TM -- and detection is not performed (as indicated by Bush's own refusal to acknowledge epidemic TM in his home apiary). 


The paper, The prevalence of Acarapis woodi in Spanish honey bee (Apis mellifera) colonies, cited above is a critical read. It shows the prevalence and distribution of A. woodi are matched pre and post Varroa invasion. The parasite has not gone away.


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## Juhani Lunden

Fusion_power said:


> Juhani, This is a summary of what I recall from his books and from various articles in bee magazines over the years.
> 
> Buckfast is a combination of Mellifera, Ligustica, Cecropia, Anatolica, and eventually Saharensis.
> 
> Here is the list of species currently recognized with * beside those evaluated via crossbreeding and ** beside the races incorporated into the Buckfast line. He wrote about several of these though I do not know if he used them in breeding.


Meda queens have been used since 1975.


http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/homage/elver/archiv.html#paysGB


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## BeesFromPoland

Maybe stupid question, but... What difference does it make whether there are TM or Varroa if the bees stay alive TF, and they make decent crop? 

ps. I don't see that M.B. presents this theory as the "fact". I have no idea if the theory is true or not, but for me it is credible. The same credibility for me has e.g. theory that TM could transfer from some other species (like VM from A. ceranea). Nobody knows, but arguing is what beekeepers like


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## Fusion_power

> arguing is what beekeepers like


The man who taught me the most in life was the one that argued with me the longest. I argued with my grandfather over a single issue for 12 years. At the end of 12 years, he was arguing the opposite of his original position so I switched my position so we could keep arguing. It gave us an incredible range of topics to converse about, solid reasoning to prove points, lots of pedagogy, a few occasions to talk very loud, and all in all a very good way to maintain a relationship with a hard headed stubborn old man. Now I am the hard headed stubborn old man, I need to find a few good topics to argue about with my grandkids! Fortunately, they have to grow up before they will be eligible to argue.

There is little or no disagreement over the origin of Varroa though most beekeepers are still unaware that there are two species of varroa of which only Varroa Destructor has been found in Apis Mellifera colonies. The genetics of varroa mites found in Apis Mellifera colonies indicate an origin in the Philippines. I am not aware of proof of the origin of Tracheal Mites though conjecture most often implicates Acarapis Vagans. Regardless, tracheal mites became a non-issue within 10 years of entry to the U.S. to the point that I no longer know of any beekeepers who continue to treat for them. Unfortunately, there are still too many vested interests on the varroa treatment bandwagon to get most of them to switch to tolerant genetics.


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## Oldtimer

My issue was not so much the specifics of where tracheal mites originated, but more so something that annoys me on Beesource, the presentation of theories, as facts.

In this instance it is the supposed "leap" from some different mite, turning into a tracheal mite.

Once questioned on it, the person proposing this said he had no facts on it either way, thus avoiding having to answer any difficult questions. But, soon as the heat was off, he right away yet again referred to "the leap" as if fact. (In post #132). The words "the possible leap" was not used it was just referred to as the leap. Which embeds it in many readers minds as a fact.

The reason certain people keep trying to make everyone think this theory is a fact, is that it suits small cell dogma perfectly. One of the first justifications for small cell, even before varroa, was to stop tracheal mites, so we were told. It was yet another problem that could be blamed on enlarged comb foundation. Never mind that at the time tracheal mites stopped being a major issue, 99% of kept hives were large cell foundation, so tracheal mites would not have resolved themselves if large cell foundation had been the problem.

But my major gripe is the way in some of these discussions not just about tracheal mites but about lots of things, instead of a straight up factual presentation, cunning is used. This includes veiled inferences, implications, and words like seems reasonable, might, if, etc. Then if questioned no proper argument is used to support, that is avoided by saying, it was just a theory, or similar. When in fact the idea has been planted in gullible readers minds and that was the intent.

This crap goes on all the time. Being a straight shooter I find it less than honest and hard to resist questioning. Which then of course makes me seem the argumentative one. But hey, at least nobody will be able to point to me presenting dodgy theories in a way intended to get it out there as if fact.


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## GBF

BeesFromPoland said:


> What difference does it make whether there are TM or Varroa if the bees stay alive TF, and they make decent crop?


Thats the main rule in the TF way of living.. Funny to see all the freezing and fyring brood test etc.. But there is one add to the rule - a queen must to work out for two years long without decreasing..


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## JWChesnut

GBF said:


> What difference does it make whether there are TM or Varroa if the bees stay alive TF, and they make decent crop? -- Thats the main rule in the TF way of living.. Funny to see all the freezing and fyring brood test etc.. But there is one add to the rule - a queen must to work out for two years long without decreasing..


The *problem* is that this is the husbandry equivalent of sculpting Micheangelo's Pieta with a sledgehammer while blindfolded.

Natural selection is a rough-and-ready process that requires uncounted ages to work its magic. I could quote studies that show the median value for "strong" selection is 0.15 and random events swamp the directional selection -- but we would go off into the mathematical weeds. Remember the Arnot forest bees were moved to hives, and they all died. Remember Solomon Parker's bees have largely died off -- a "Bond" trial can eliminate decades of acumulated progress quickly and indiscriminately.

You are likely to be strongly selecting for small colonies that swarm continuously. That after all is an simple solution for the bees to match fecundity with mortality -- they already have that variance at work in their genome. 

Just today, Fusion Power is soliciting bee queens selected against swarming, because he reports his magic bees swarm too much. You think?


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## Fusion_power

Misinterpretation JWC, I look at improving my bees as a goal to be pursued. I kept Buckfast many years before I found the original queen that became the basis for my current bees. In fact, I had Buckfast queens in 2003 just prior to finding the first queen with measurable mite tolerance. I replaced the Buckfast with mite tolerant queens because the writing was already on the wall. The Buckfast could only be maintained by treatments. Instead of making snide comments about my bees try instead to consider what you would do to improve your bees given that you had a good foundation of treatment free bees but that they carry a few undesirable traits.

I don't rely on swarming to control mites, if I did, my bees would all have died long ago. Swarming is a necessary part of bee biology, but it is amenable to selection. There is very little to select from in this regard in my bees. There is huge potential to select in a cross with Buckfast. Think of it this way, if my bees were swarming fools, would I ever have a crop of honey to sell? On the other hand, if they were less likely to swarm, wouldn't that save me an immense amount of time and effort in spring buildup for the main flow?

Here is what I have done so far.

The original line I developed was based on a single queen found in 2004 that was highly mite tolerant. She was in a swarm I caught in 2003. The traits of her colony were very strongly in favor of Apis Mellifera Mellifera genetics including a very strong swarming tendency, extremely fast spring buildup, large very dark bees, and very heavy stinging tendency. By the end of 2004, it was obvious that she did not need treatments to maintain a healthy colony. I purchased 10 Purvis queens and used them to produce drones with which to mate queens from my swarm queen. I kept bees using this line until 4 years ago when Mike Carpenter's mite mauling bees came to my attention. I knew from observation that my bees did not do much in the way of mite mauling. Purchasing a few Carpenter queens quickly showed that crosses between his queens and mine were better survivors than either line separately. Unfortunately, the swarming impulse got a bit worse though I made some progress in reducing stinging propensity. Now I'm looking for a way to reduce the swarming impulse. I know from experience that it won't be easy.

As an aside, I purchased 3 queens from Bweaver last year and evaluated them to see if they could be used to improve my line. Indications so far are that they are decent honey producers, but have a strong swarming tendency, produce usurpation swarms, and are very aggressive under some conditions. They do not require treatment for mites. At this time, I am probably going to eliminate them because there is nothing to gain from their genetics and a lot to be lost in terms of swarming tendency.


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## JWChesnut

In natural selection, a dynamic balance exists between fecundity (growth of new organisms) and mortality. This is under strong selection pressure (as lineages that fail to achieve replacement rate die out and conversely excess fecundity robs fitness from all). 

Consider Apis cerana, where natural history establishes a swarm value of 6-8 per year. From that number we know mortality (due to lack of longevity, failure of young colonies to overwinter, or entrenched virus loads) must be enormous.

A lineages of bees with hygenic properties is coselected in the wild for an appropriate fecundity -- The bees that Fusion has boxed have been selected for a rate of expansion that will sustain the lineages without overtaxing the habitat and reducing fitness. Its what natural selection does.


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## clyderoad

JWChesnut said:


> A lineages of bees with hygenic properties is coselected in the wild for an appropriate fecundity -- The bees that Fusion has boxed have been selected for a rate of expansion that will sustain the lineages without overtaxing the habitat and reducing fitness. Its what natural selection does.


So it's counter productive to try and decrease the swarming of these bees without effecting their hardiness to varroa and fecundity?
Surely FP realizes this. Why then would one try?


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## JWChesnut

clyderoad said:


> So it's counter productive to try and decrease the swarming of these bees without effecting their hardiness to varroa and fecundity?
> Surely FP realizes this. Why then would one try?


No, Fusion P is engaged in artificial selection for traits -- he has left the wild and woolly "Bond Selection" behind. He is domesticating his bees by imposing traits. He is a breeder.


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## Fusion_power

> Why then would one try?


Because these bees are no longer "in the wild". It is like asking why Brother Adam made the Buckfast bee in the first place. He did it because it is what made sense to do.


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## clyderoad

Fusion_power said:


> It is like asking why Brother Adam made the Buckfast bee in the first place. He did it because it is what made sense to do.


Ok. So it makes sense to compromise the survivor qualities of your bees by introducing other bees to the pool for what end?


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## Fusion_power

Why do you keep bees? I keep them to make honey. I'm currently averaging about 60 pounds of honey per colony managed for production. I had 150 pound averages in the 1990's using Buckfast stock. I'd like to get the production of Buckfast and the mite tolerance of my bees in a single line. I would also like to have less hassle dealing with bees intent on swarming every spring.


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## crofter

Isn't almost anything a compromise? Seems there are quite a few experiences of attaining decent mite tolerance but productivity suffered or swarming tendency increased or temperament went for a slide. A large group of bee users like traits that are needed to get bees ready for almond pollination and would not trade those traits for mite tolerance. It seems to me that whether with bees, cows, dogs, horses, marriage partners, you select for the traits you must have with the least of the ones you cannot tolerate and deal with the other traits. Are we chasing tails to find the perfect bee. It has been said before but why not work at changing the traits of the mites? Whoever is working on that angle does not seem to be getting a lot of media attention.


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## clyderoad

Fusion_power said:


> Why do you keep bees? .......


I get the sense that you are annoyed with my participation here judging by your responses.

I keep bees, 75ish hives and a load of nucs, to make a living; selling bees, honey, pollen, propolis, wax, whatever they give me to sell, even
a few pollination gigs in the Spring. 
I can see where 60lbs per hive managed for honey production is an issue, not nearly enough for the work load.
This transition to higher production while retaining some semblance of varroa resistance will take some time I'd guess, many years 
probably. May lose the resistance you've enjoyed, then what?


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## Fusion_power

Not annoyed Clyde, just very much tired of all the criticism and derision multiple treatment bandwagon beekeepers are so fast to whip up. So I challenge you and others to make it worth my time to argue. I actually enjoy a good argument.

I have a backup now that I did not have in years past. Three beekeepers in the immediate area (within 40 miles) have several colonies derived from my bees. I have 4 apiaries of my own set up for next year with bees already in place or with stands ready for bees. If I put a couple of Buckfast and a few of my bees at one location, they won't muck up the rest of the genetics in the area. In other words, I have options now that will prevent a collapse if I bring in new stock. Besides, if you read the very few articles online, the bees in Ontario are now being selected for mite tolerance traits. I'd like to see how much progress they have made.

To summarize: I have an area set up to isolate them. I can raise some fall queens and get them mated with my drones. I can use them as production queens until I see how much mite tolerance they exhibit. If something goes bad wrong, I have backup from multiple beekeepers in the area.

PS, 60 pounds is pretty good for Alabama, the statewide average for managed bees is in that range. I want to double it or better if the bees can be bred to the task.


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## clyderoad

Fusion_power said:


> just very much tired of all the criticism and derision multiple treatment bandwagon beekeepers are so fast to whip up. So I challenge you and others to make it worth my time to argue. .


Seems like you're drawing a line in the sand. Are "multiple treatment bandwagon beekeepers" lesser people? or lesser beekeepers?
What kind of term is that?
Criticism of methods and claims has been a part of beekeeping for a long, long time. You know it's nothing new.
And no, it's not worth my time to argue. But I won't keep my mouth closed either.


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## Slow Drone

Bobby Scott is in Al and sells canadian buckfast. I can get his number for you if you want it. I've been treatment free for well over a decade and have found it's not a bad idea to interject new or different stock from time to time.


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## Fusion_power

> it's not worth my time to argue. But I won't keep my mouth closed either.


Good because keeping your mouth closed prevents all kinds of dialogue. It is possible and productive to argue without rancor and with respect, just takes people accepting that disagreeing is not a bad thing. Yes, criticism is part and parcel, but I have nothing to sell, no drum to beat, and I'm not into masochism. If I keep bees sans treatments, it is not proof that the bees I am keeping could make it in a commercial enterprise.



I have contact info for a guy near Huntsville who has Buckfast stock. I am leaning more toward getting stock from Canada because they have been selecting for mite tolerance for a few years.


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## Juhani Lunden

Fusion_power said:


> The original line I developed was based on a single queen found in 2004 that was highly mite tolerant. She was in a swarm I caught in 2003. The traits of her colony were very strongly in favor of Apis Mellifera Mellifera genetics including a very strong swarming tendency, extremely fast spring buildup, large very dark bees, and very heavy stinging tendency.


Interesting to notice that I have never had any swarming problems with my TF bees. My starting point was buckfast and primorski breeders. Not a swarm, but breeder queens from other breeders. Although some say primorski bees swarm a lot, I have never witnessed that. They make sometimes cells, but swarming is very rare. And because of my queens have clipped wings I can tell that with some certainty. 

There are interesting things maybe happening here in Finland, besides all destruction and bad things, because of climate change: wild bees maybe settling in our climate too. So far it has been too cold.


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## Fusion_power

We are in dramatically different climates Juhani. I have a relatively long spring buildup from first pollen about the 10th of February to main nectar flow about the 25th of April. The flow lasts about 5 weeks with several different plants blooming in succession. If we receive abundant rainfall, the flow can last until the 30th of June though it tapers off quite a bit after mid May. This presents ideal conditions for swarming. In 2008, I had a single colony push out 5 swarms over a 3 week period with the primary swarm about 5 pounds and each successive swarm smaller down to the last which was about a pound of bees. That was one of the years that I let several colonies swarm as much as they wanted so the swarms would move into the woods in this area. It was an expensive way to jump start the mite tolerant feral population, but it was very effective.

The combination of climate and stock source would suggest reduced swarming tendency in your bees.


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## Juhani Lunden

I might still come around for a visit some day!


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## BeesFromPoland

I don't live off bees, so my approach may be different, but since we all are in TFB forum... 

I argue a lot about this on Polish forums, and I'm constantly being under attack for what I write  However I think that if "natural bee" needs to swarm or sting - shouldn't we just accept that? (of course if it is not excessive, and the aggression is not dangerous to others). 
Isn't natural beekeeping about trying to adjust our beekeeping methods to the bees and their natural methods (and still getting something from it), instead of adjusting the bees to beekeeping?
Wasn't the "perfection of the bee" one of the reasons they don't manage the natural pressures (like diseases)? 

Most of You probably agrees that ferals are the key to TF bees... So why change again the ferals (into non-swarming, non-stinging, maximum-producing unnatural bee) if this approach showed it's downside when varroa came? 
Shouldn't we rather think how to use what we have on the "bee way", and not on "beekeeper way"??

In Poland there are a few beekeepers multiplying bees by swarms. They still live off bees. they still have honey. (probably not as much, as others, but they manage to do it like that).


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## BWrangler

Hi Guys

Importance? From my experience, not too much.

My untreated bees were surrounded by hundreds of treated hives. They did quite well, even during 2 separate episodes, when nearby commercial beeyards totally collapsed from mites.

At one point, I put those hives inside a commercial migratory yard and left them there for 2 seasons without any problems. They did great despite the commercial beekeeper's hives collapsing from mites and drug resistant who knows what.

I removed them early the 3rd season. You can read more about it at:

https://bnaturalguy.wordpress.com/2009/10/20/end-in-sight/

After that, those bees continued to control and handle the mites without problems.

But that's not the end of the story. They had a tough drought year in their new yard. And a couple of hives seemed to tack vigour by the end of the season. Without disease symptoms and mites, I thought is was a queen problem. And decided to revitalize and increase my hive count by yard trashing. 

During that process, I found frames from those migratory commercial hives. Apparently, when those commercial hives were collapsing, my friend reinforced his failing hives with frames from my healthy hives. He got brood and bees. I got a new variant of slow motion disappearing disease.

Ultimately, I lost all my bees. Mites from neighbours, not a problem. But comb is a different matter!


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## Oldtimer

Couple questions, do you think you also got some of their genetics or was it only comb, and second was their comb in all your hives or just some of your hives? What treatments were they using?


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## jim lyon

One more question. Would it be a fair statement to say you didn't personally inspect your hives for approximately 3 years?


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## jadebees

I noticed with great interest BWrangler's mention of "slo motion disappearing collapse". My bees are usually wild caught, but... a few years ago some local folks, and me, got a great deal on pollinator hives. As I used their resources, along with trying to lower the feral bees high swarm levels, (and basic stingy meanness), It soon became apparent that something was going on, though mites were controlled. The affected bees mostly died in winter after fading for most of a year. As theses lines of bees no longer exist, neither does that slow decline in some bees in my hives. The wax was harvested, the boxes & some frames given to a new beek friend. I will now closely watch and inquire if he's having problems. It may be a "thing", more than we realise. I hope It doesn't affect his bees in the same way. For now, I'm splitting a lot, and not getting casual with the protection. If thats the type bees needed around here, so be it. It is encouraging to see other people notice this also.


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## BWrangler

Hi Oldtimer

Genetic? Could have. I had marked some of the queens, but not all.

Comb? Initially it was in a few hives. But when those hives were split, all of it got randomly spread around. Yard trashing had worked well for me. But in this case, it doomed the entire yard.

Treatments? My commercial friend treated his hives with the usual mix of legal like various kinds of mite strips, oxalic drip, tetra, tylosic, fumidil,home-brew chemicais, grease patties, pollen patties, and corn syrup.

My hives were left untreated as they were a test to see how a small cell/treatment free approachy would fair in a commercial migratory operation.


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## Oldtimer

So since your marked queens also perished you are attributing the loss to residual chemicals in the combs?

Home brew could be anything?


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## BWrangler

Hi jim lyon

3 years? I personally inspected them at the end of the second year.

While in the migratory outfit, they were inspected and managed by my commercial friend. He managed just like any of his bees except without any treatments.


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## Oldtimer

Well at least you did the experiment, good for you!


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## BWrangler

Hi Oldtimer

Chemicals? No. Those combs were heavily contaminated with those viruses Randy Oliver describes in his articles.

The foreign comb contaminated those few hives and all their combs. And then I distributed the whole mess throughout the yard when I spit everything up.

My focus on mites, PMS and queen problems were a red herring that masked the real viral problem. 

And that's what happens when a beekeeper gets complacent looking backwards at past success, rather than forward for the next challenge.

Home brew could be anything? Yep. Anything but approved for bees.


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## Oldtimer

Thanks, very interesting.

Question though, chemicals I can understand, it has long been anecdotal that chemicals cause TF bees to fail. But viruses, would not the commercial bees have succumbed also as there is no treatment for viruses? Also if viruses were that prevalent in the commercial hives would they not have spread to your own hives by other means anyway rather than just when combs were swapped?


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## BWrangler

Hi Oldtimer

Most of the commercial bees in that yard did succumb starting a season and a half before mine. They were quickly replaced in the 4500 colony outfit.

At the time they were crawling with chemical tolerant mites, and an indeterminate PMS like problem. Thought everything was mite related. And at that time my hives didn't have any mite load or symptoms. Though I was in the clear.

In fact my commercial friend was so impressed he bought a large shipment of small cell foundation without talking to me, or knowing what a hard, long, expensive process getting small cell sized comb from foundation is.

The viruses are beyond my depth. I suspect that the bees can tolerate or handle them at some moderate infection rate. But once that threshold is crossed, there's no recovery. So, a little drifting, some robbing is OK. A comb or two full of virus spore infected brood and feed is not.

And there's also a chance that all of them were critically infected, but not symptomatic before I spread the combs around. 

To sum it up, from my experience treated hives didn't create a mite problem for my bees, even when put in the same beeyard. But mites aren't the only problem, and they might not be the worst problem, from a neighbour's apiary.


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## Oldtimer

Thanks.


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## Clayton Huestis

Dennis,

I guess now is how do you clean things up and proceed from here. I think your bees were more than resilient had they not been directly infected with virus infected combs. Yes genetics are important, but I can't help but think that good nutrition is lacking here( on the commercial management). On a base level maintaining the best health possible should be your first means of resistance, especially being TF. I realize that they were being managed commercially by a friend, I really don't worry about you springing back as I know you have the tools to do so. It's your commercial friend I worry about. How do you clean up 4500 hives?


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## 1102009

> Isn't natural beekeeping about trying to adjust our beekeeping methods to the bees and their natural methods (and still getting something from it), instead of adjusting the bees to beekeeping?


B.,
Keeping bees in an area where there are no ferals and the "ferals" brought in are "breeded ferals", it`s the only way for someone with such ideas, like you and me and being not very interested in much honey crop.
My area is too crowded with civilization to let swarms go free so I will try some methods to prevent too much swarming. 
Have a crisis with mites, I will split or combine, depending on the strength of colony.

BWrangler, thanks for giving this experience.

We have a prohibited area with AFB here. Beekeepers exchange materials, mites are more or less resistant, bees are weak. Brood diseases are common.
It`s good information to think again about our "normal" beekeeping methods.


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## Mycroft Jones

Dennis, can you explain a bit more about how your bees died? How did it start? Did your commercial friend put a few frames of his own comb into your hives? Did a few of your hives get infected, then your "yard trashing" spread the infected comb into all the hives? How did you get infected comb in the first place?

UPDATE:

BWrangler, I just read a comment of yours from 2010. So, your commercial friend added some of his own frames into your hives? Ok, so if he hadn't done that, your hives probably would have survived?


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## 1102009

Hi all,
just found this, maybe you already know about it.

http://phys.org/news/2015-08-honeybee-colonies-deadly-mites.html#jCp


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## jim lyon

BWrangler said:


> Hi jim lyon
> 
> 3 years? I personally inspected them at the end of the second year.
> 
> While in the migratory outfit, they were inspected and managed by my commercial friend. He managed just like any of his bees except without any treatments.


I see. I was just trying to make sense of your timeline. You didn't mention the 2 year inspection.


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## BWrangler

Hi Mycroft Jones

Details? Here's what I've written: https://bnaturalguy.wordpress.com/tag/ccd/

I'll answer any specific questions. Just ask.


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## Mycroft Jones

Thank you BWrangler. Interesting reading.


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## Oldtimer

deknow said:


> Attributing the jump to cell enlargement is conjecture, but the timing is about right, and no one has proposed another theory that I know of that would explain why the jump happened.


Or if there even was a "jump".

Which is the problem with the type of statement quoted. Without actually saying so, it is attempting to lead people to think that 1. there was a "jump", and 2. that this "jump" might have been caused by comb foundation.

No proof for either.

If we are talking probabilities, in my view it is more probable that tracheal mites are the same as all the other bee diseases. ie, they have existed for millennia and been present in localised bee populations that were tolerant of them. But as bees started getting shipped around the globe in the last century or two these diseases were introduced to other bee populations that were not tolerant to them and became very virulent. Bit like introducing the common cold to unexposed indigenous people who then died in masses.

Add the movement of disease carrying bees to the introduction of moveable frame hives and the practise of chopping and swapping hive parts, we have the recipe for the current disease situation that honeybees are in.



deknow said:


> no one has proposed another theory


Yes they have, I just did. And a highly plausible theory at that. 
And probable too. Because we know that certain bee populations such as the native British bee had no resistance to tracheal mites and were virtually exterminated, while other bee populations had very high resistance. So it is genetic, these mites can exist in some bee breeds with almost no damage, they still exist now but most of the susceptible breeds have been eliminated.


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## 1102009

Somethings going on here.
Dee Lusby and Erik Österlund are mentioned in our bee magazine!

Quote:
"Much more important than small cells  is the prevention of import of germs and mites, which is done by the strong tf hives when they rob the weakened neighbor colonies."

Beekeepers now think about new concepts and want to work together. One try will be only to treat those hives which are infested and not to treat preventively.

Strong tf hives? I like that!

Well, it`s a start to tolerate tf.


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## Solomon Parker

JWChesnut said:


> Remember Solomon Parker's bees have largely died off


Well, I apologize, nobody told me that my bees have largely died off, so I didn't know.


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## JWChesnut

Solomon Parker said:


> Well, I apologize, nobody told me that my bees have largely died off, so I didn't know.


Well you should. As your hive count went from 30 in Arkansas, 14 (or so) in Colorado, and *6* in the winter of '16 in Oregon. You now report 30 hives via an active expansion this spring from swarms and grafts. Congratulations on making increase.

My point remains -- the "Bond" method is rough and ready -- of the 24 hives that were lost in your journey from Arkansas to Oregon, there may have been spectacular genetics cultured through years of culling in your apiary. Hives were lost not because of genetics, but because of management decisions-- and all those genetic resources were lost permanently. You cannot breed from dead bees.


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## Oldtimer

Quote "I've been keeping bees for 13 years TF and I've had no die outs yet". 

Is this some kind of word twisting trick speak?
.


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## Solomon Parker

JWChesnut said:


> Well you should. As your hive count went from 30 in Arkansas, 14 (or so) in Colorado, and *6* in the winter of '16 in Oregon. You now report 30 hives via an active expansion this spring from swarms and grafts. Congratulations on making increase.


I went to Colorado with 16, left with 7. Started 2016 with 6, 5 swarms caught, 21 successful splits, 32 total. Go ahead and update your spreadsheet.




JWChesnut said:


> My point remains -- the "Bond" method is rough and ready -- of the 24 hives that were lost in your journey from Arkansas to Oregon, there may have been spectacular genetics cultured through years of culling in your apiary.


More like 9. Spectacular genetics survive, which they did. Which is why I still have them, and I am making increase from them, as is my habit.




JWChesnut said:


> Hives were lost not because of genetics, but because of management decisions--


How do you know this?




JWChesnut said:


> and all those genetic resources were lost permanently.


I don't want them if they can't survive. It's the basic concept of TF beekeeping.




JWChesnut said:


> You cannot breed from dead bees.


I don't have to.


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## Solomon Parker

Oldtimer said:


> Or, is there some cunning word twisting that is beyond my simple understanding of the English language, calculated to mislead the masses?


Dead hive = Dead out

All hives dead = Die out

Sorry if I have been unclear. Everyone else seemed to understand.


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## Oldtimer

"Dead hive = Dead out

All hives dead = Die out"

Well thanks for explaining your terms I didn't get you meaning, nor have I ever seen anyone else use them exclusively that way before, I think to most people a die out could easily refer to a hive dieing out. Who would know you meant every last hive a beekeeper possesses.

"Sorry if I have been unclear. Everyone else seemed to understand". 

How do you know they understand? I didn't, so others wouldn't have. Rather than be sorry it would be better to be more plain in your language.

Anyhow now that you seem to be getting up towards how many hives you had 3 years ago, all the best hope they live.


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## Fusion_power

OT, somewhat irrelevant but I understood what he meant by "died off" and "dieout". He is still in the game as long as he has survivors to breed from.


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## Oldtimer

Glad you understood it, maybe it's a TF thing. 

What was especially confusing is that everyone knows nearly all his hives died. But nobody said they all died, it was said they had "largely died off", which as I read what had been said would be true. So to come out and say he has never had a die out was rather obtuse, I didn't connect that to every hive dieing cos nobody ever said that, therefore no need to deny. If he just said something like last few years hive numbers have dropped from around 40 to around 6, that would have been the plain English version.

And saying he "didn't know" his hives had largely died out was implying they hadn't. Without actually saying that outright. Obtusification surely.

While he is still "in the game", my own feeling is nothing has been gained by these losses. Losing bees to beekeeper error such as not accounting for local conditions and stacking hives 5 high in winter so they get blown over and die, or not accounting for local nectar flow conditions so they have no way to get food and die, do not lose the weak bees they lose bees based on beekeeper error, the beekeeper putting maybe perfectly good bees in an unliveable situation. Solomon has been exposing his bees to harsh living conditions for 13 years, doesn't seem to have helped. Remember that bees have been surviving without mans help for millenia. It is fake science for a very small backyard beekeeper to claim he can suddenly achieve something nature cannot. Varroa is different, because bees have not been exposed to or lived with varroa it's new to them, therefore we may be able to help the selection process along with that. But not much else, nature has already made bees into incredibly efficient survivors.


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## lharder

Wind, bears, floods, fire, vandals, theft, inexperience. The further you are from your bees, the less likely you can salvage a catastrophic event. You can increase the odds against losses like this to some extent (proper bear fence for example) But I expect some losses at some point due to these factors. It is irrelevant to the TF vs treating debate. 

In rowing, pushing the boundaries results in progress. One of the better master's competitors I know flipped his single many times his first year and still flips occasionally . I have flipped one accidentally maybe 3 times in many years of rowing. Who would you guess has better technique? Not me. Its also hard to get some people to take on a bit of risk in rowing and to do things differently. Those that do not, improve very slowly. 

I think this may apply to many aspects of life in general. In complexity theory, interesting things happen at the edge of chaos. Not in chaos or when things are completely stable.


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## Oldtimer

Well thought out answer lharder and kind of makes sense.

I guess the real reason for my last posts which must seem pretty whingy, is my frustration trying to make sense from the TF movement because of the lack of disclosure, and this has been on going for years. Even when I was making a very serious effort to be TF myself it was noticeable I just couldn't get honest information, or at least some things just didn't add up.

So here we have a guy who has been a prominent advocate of TF beekeeping. A few years ago when he had a season that went well he was giving very regular updates about how many hives he had and death rates (he claimed none). Then all of a sudden it goes silent. We discover his hives have been dieing faster than his expansion model beekeeping and swarm collection can replace them, but when he is asked about it there is no honest disclosure, we get "I have never had a die out" and "i don't remember". This is why there is ongoing suspicion from many about the claims of TF people, people complain about not being believed, of course they are not believed when there is on going cause for people to suspect they are not getting the full story.

I lost some hives last season. It is not a secret. If someone asked me about that I would be happy to give numbers and the reasons why. I would not go into cover up mode with statements designed to confuse such as saying "I have never had a die out", which turns out to be pretty much a meaningless statement.

People think I am anti TF. In fact I'm just anti word play, meaningless one line quips, and other such devises when if promoting a cause, full disclosure should be given.

There is another guy who posts here claiming great success as he now has around 80 TF hives. But it's the disclosure thing again. He has never once mentioned losing a hive. Only piecing things together gives the truth. He talks about splitting and breeding his hives, plus collects 40 to 50 swarms and cutouts each year. If I had been doing that and not sold any bees like he hasn't over the time period I would have thousands of hives by now. So, clearly he is losing a heckuva lot of bees, but, never a mention.... We are only told how successful it is.

I should add, after that rant, that there are some TF folks who are totally straight up and it is possible to have a discussion with them from which I can learn, both the good and the bad. Those folks have my utmost respect and are the only ones I pay attention too.


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## Juhani Lunden

Well said OT. 

If I said that I had 20% losses this winter, that is true. 
Then I could add that a treating beekeeper here near by said he had about the same. All true. (endless rain 2015, queens did not got mated properly, this situation applies to all, treating or not).

But if we look what happened year back, the picture is totally different: I lost about 70% and most of the survivors did not make it through summer. This makes my last winter death rate irrelevant.

Here is a picture of my queen rearing yard 2016, drone frames were put in hives end of May and first queens will hatch soon. Dandelion is about to finish blooming, now + 5C and wind from north.

Most of the TF folks on this forum are very shy. I can only wonder why... Even when specially asked for, like here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?302345-To-make-it-real

Actually only JWChesnut did what I asked: a picture of "Treatment free beekeepers with their bees, in same picture"

Funny how these pictures bring more information.







Specially remember the case when asked for proof of living bees we got a video of a hive been robbed...


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## Juhani Lunden

Correction:
Actually it is +3C, don´t want to make things look better than they really are...


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

I personally don't see how the bees will develop significant immunity to such large mites. Breeding for bees that are more resistant and tolerant of the viruses spread by the mites I think would be more possible and feasible. 

2 things that really get to me about treatment-free beekeeping

1 is the fact that many treatment for beekeeper think that commercial beekeepers could care less about the Bees and don't breed for more tolerance this could not be further from the truth. Commercial beekeepers depend upon theire honey bees and are constantly trying to improve the health of their colonies. These men and women keep apples citrus berries and all manner of other crops on your table. They would love to be able to return to the time when honey bees were not plagued by the mites. 

The second thing that gets to me is the overwhelming amount of new beekeeper that are encouraged to keep bees with no experience treatment free. They kill Colony after colony due to lack of experience and not treating their bees. Even if someone was going to do treatment free the bond method in my opinion is a Despicable form of beehaving. Colonies that are succumbing to mites need to be tested 4 might levels and if High treated so as to not contaminate the research colonies but also neighboring beekeepers. Just like to a horse or a dog we have a responsibility to take care of them! I thought you treatment free and flow hive beekeepers got into beekeeping to SAVE the bees??!!! 

We use genetics, apiguard, and oxalic acid to keep our mites dead and our bees alive.


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## Fusion_power

> I personally don't see how the bees will develop significant immunity to such large mites.


I inspected 24 colonies over the last 2 weeks. So far, I have not seen even one single mite. If my bees were being overwhelmed, don't you think there would be at least one or two on the bees? I was wearing my glasses so I could see mites if they were present. My bees manage the mites effectively enough that there are never large numbers in my colonies. How do you account for this in your world view? Somewhere here in a cabinet I have a pack of Apistan that I purchased back in 2003 or thereabouts. The only reason it is still around is so I can look at it from time to time and be thankful I don't have to use it any more. I can still find mites in my bees by uncapping drone brood. The last time I did this, I found 1 mite after uncapping 127 cells. I still have problems, my bees swarm excessively. Give me a few more years, and I will get this down to a more normal level.


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## Oldtimer

Fusion_power said:


> I still have problems, my bees swarm excessively. Give me a few more years, and I will get this down to a more normal level.


And when you do that please tell me how LOL .


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

Fusion_power said:


> I inspected 24 colonies over the last 2 weeks. So far, I have not seen even one single mite. If my bees were being overwhelmed, don't you think there would be at least one or two on the bees? I was wearing my glasses so I could see mites if they were present. My bees manage the mites effectively enough that there are never large numbers in my colonies. How do you account for this in your world view? Somewhere here in a cabinet I have a pack of Apistan that I purchased back in 2003 or thereabouts. The only reason it is still around is so I can look at it from time to time and be thankful I don't have to use it any more. I can still find mites in my bees by uncapping drone brood. The last time I did this, I found 1 mite after uncapping 127 cells. I still have problems, my bees swarm excessively. Give me a few more years, and I will get this down to a more normal level.


Your bees might be that good. Until you can make a business model out of them no one but hobbyist will actually take you seriously. 

Our bees like all bees like to swarm also. Due to management we haven't lost a swarm out of hundreds.


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## lharder

The largeness of mites should make them easier to control. Easy to kick off that pesky toy poodle gnawing at your ankles. A bacterial infection not so easy to shake off. 

Tracheal mites in theory should have been a much more difficult problem for the bees to solve. I haven't heard a good explanation for how bees acquire resistance to them. I can think of multiple mechanisms for varroa mites. 

With people being people, science is never a straight line enterprise. Nobody in entirely objective, nobody has a complete set of information. Ego often gets in the way. Personalities get in the way. The reticence to go public with failure is entirely understandable, not limited to TF keepers. But it is extremely useful, even as an exercise in ego management. Personally, I always give myself the option to change my mind. Sometimes its useful to think of possible data based checkpoints where one can abandon an idea (or embrace it). Ask someone about their checkpoints and if they have none, then it is just an ideological stance. I also think of multiple streams of evidence that would push a viewpoint one way or another. Sometimes one just has to live with uncertainty. Sometimes one has to wait for more data. It is perfectly acceptable. 

Understanding of the evolution and sustainability of host/disease interactions is still in its infancy. I will put my neck out a bit in saying that in general, these interactions are not in complete chaos, and that solutions generally emerge even though pandemics are a regular feature in nature. I don't think we have an excellent understanding of why. It is possible to throw these interactions out of whack. Change the context in any manner of ways, and these interactions can develop positive feed back loops (indicating lack of regulation). With bees we have changed them in terms of forage, chemical exposure, land use patterns and finally movement and concentration of bees along with associate pests and diseases. Breaking out of positive feedback loops and enabling adaption requires paying attention to context and giving bees a more stable environment to adapt to.


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## flamenco108

I would like to address my question to such proficient beekeeper as Michael Palmer or anyone who knows the answer. At the beginning of this thread he said, that (perhaps I misunderstood) untreating neighbours are the problem while infectiong after treatment phase. And probably he is right. It sounds reasonable.
I would like to know a little more about the area of Champlain Valley, as in other writings Michael Palmer admitted, that the part of his management techniques he had learned from Kirk Webster, which is supposed to be the TF proffessional beekeeper and his writings are very inspiring to me, the beginner. Perhaps Michael Palmer and Kirk Webster are neighbours? Michael for sure knows very well, if apiaries of Kirk Webster are isolated from neighbouring apiaries (treated or not and so threated or not). I know from other threads that I can't count on the answer from Kirk directly. But as his example is so important to me, and Michael Palmer's speeches available on youtube are the way, I want to go building up my apiary, the question seems to be reasonable.
Thanks in advance for help.


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## squarepeg

welcome to the forum flamenco! it's a very good question indeed.

i don't want to speak for michael, but i believe i recall him mentioning losing a yard to nosema when a beginning beekeeper started a yard close to one of his and failed to recognize and deal with the problem.

here is an older thread in which to topic was addressed:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?275161-treatment-free-beekeeping-the-risks

my take on that discussion is that all of us keeping bees whether on or off treatments have the potential to impact other colonies in the nearby area. the responsible thing for all of us to do is to maintain vigilance on the health status of our bees, and take what ever measures are necessary to prevent the robbing out of a collapsing colony.

when done responsibly, treatment free operations have the potential to impact the surrounding population in a positive way as well by contributing the genetic basis for resistance and survival.

do you have other beekeepers in your area having success with keeping bees off treatments?


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## Fusion_power

Beekeepers in Poland have access to several sources of mite tolerant genetics including Juhani Lunden's bees and the mite tolerant bees being developed by the Dutch beekeepers. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that beekeepers who do not treat but are not using mite tolerant bees contribute to re-infection for their neighbors who do treat. There is also evidence that two beekeepers that treat but at different times can re-infect each other during the time between their treatments. We don't see the problems with nosema here in the south that are seen in Vermont so I can't talk to nosema being spread by neighbors who do not manage disease in their bees. What I can say is that a person would have to get a large number of queens from mite tolerant stock and saturate their area with drones to have a reasonable chance of maintaining treatment free bees in an area where all beekeepers treat. Alternatively, new queens with mite tolerant genetics could be imported each year with a reasonably good chance they would be able to survive high levels of mite pressure from their neighbors.


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## flamenco108

squarepeg said:


> welcome to the forum flamenco!


Hello  I thought, I went to the welcome area, but who knows. I've read this forum for 2 years, registered in the meantime, so I might forget. I will fix it ASAP.




squarepeg said:


> here is an older thread in which to topic was addressed:
> 
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?275161-treatment-free-beekeeping-the-risks


I've red this thread. Never-ending discussion.




squarepeg said:


> do you have other beekeepers in your area having success with keeping bees off treatments?


AFAIK not. My beeyards are located in south suburbs of Warsaw, Poland and there are a lot of hobbyists, but most of them are old and old fashioned. They are focused rather on honey harvests than on any other topic. In my "county" there happened the miracle: the number of officially registered beekeepers had doubled in just last 2 years and the most of newbees are younger that 50, which is considered, that they are young beekeepers. But the TF subject is still rarely disputed or not at all. I remember that the short speech of the local and only queen breeder about sustainable queen rearing was kind of surprise for attendants on monthly meeting of our beekeeping assotiation. When you have just 2-5 beehives, there is no motive to go TF, as there is no visible benefit.

Back to topic:
The first question is if there are any feral bees in my area? If yes, then the question of impact of the management style for the apiary is no longer valid, as there are also next variable in the equation which is unmeasurable. If not - we are back in never-ending discussion.
The second question is, if there are other successful proffessionals as Kirk Webster? As I said, his writings are big inspiration for me, whether I would expand my apiary or not (now I have 40+ bee colonies). As Webster is TF beekeeper, ilnesses of his bees must be the big problem for his neighbours. If it's true, that the TF bees are the threat for non-TF bees.

That's why I'm inspired by Kirk Webster: he is supposed to be the living example of TF success. He does not treat and makes it profitable (for me it's much more important that his apiary have been balanced on financial level for a long time than his late popularity which for sure makes him more profits - but they are out of this important balance). But as I have red also a lot of Eric Osterlund blog, it seems that the success of TF beekeeping is not to achieve without the isolated apiaries. So, that's why I asked my question. Mike Palmer knows the answer for sure, as he knows Kirk Webster.


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## squarepeg

understood flamenco. 

this is just my opinion, but i believe if the population of bees in your area, (i.e. the gene pool), is comprised of nothing else but bees having a history of being treated that consistently succumb when not treated (or are inadequately treated) then it is going to be unlikely that you are going to be able to sustain an apiary off treatments.

i am not familiar enough with kirk's location to make a meaningful comment about it, but i get the impression that he is remote enough and has a large enough apiary such that he may have effectively flooded the nearby habitat with survivor bees. perhaps others more knowledgable about it will reply.

this is a topic of great interest and likely is part of the reason why we see so much variability being reported with respect to the successes and failures of those attempting to keep bees off treatments. i look forward to seeing how your experience turns out, thanks for posting.


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## Nordak

This has been a fascinating read. I think half the debate here revolves around definitions of success. I am a TF beekeeper because I decided I wanted to keep bees without chemicals. Do I harvest as much honey as most beeks that treat here? Not even close. Do I have less losses? Based on what accounts I hear from the area, I would give a definitive yes. I have not had a single loss in 3 years and currently run 10 hives. Perhaps I have lucked out thus far, and the proverbial sky will fall on my littleTF Apiary and crush my TF dreams. So far, I've seen success based on what I wanted to accomplish, and smile knowing it. If the day comes there is nothing I can do to keep my bees living without chemical assistance, I will stop being a beek. I don't think I'll have to worry about it as I truly believe the bees are figuring it out despite our best efforts to set them back. I don't have the science to tell you why it works, it just does.


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## Oldtimer

Solomon Parker said:


> I went to Colorado with 16, left with 7. Started 2016 with 6, 5 swarms caught, 21 successful splits, 32 total. Go ahead and update your spreadsheet.


How many still alive now?


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