# Bees Comb Is Across Several Bars



## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

First of all, please excuse my ignorance if I use wrong bee keeping terms. I really will try not to embarrass myself, although it will be hard. 

We received a small swarm of bees back on June 8th of this year. They had been in a nuc box for 2 weeks prior to us receiving them. The comb they had drawn up was already crossing bars. When we placed them in our hive, we were careful not to tear apart the combs (most likely mistake #1). If my memory serves me correctly there were 3 or 4 bars that contained some comb. The way the combs were crossed we could not find the queen. We put 1:1 sugar water in the hive for them and left them alone for two weeks.

When we opened the hive in a couple of weeks, the combs were even more crossed. My husband said we needed to separate the bars so that’s what I began doing. Right off the bat, an entire ‘paddle’ of comb (hope that’s correct) came loose and fell to the bottom. Needless to say the whole hive has gone from bad to worse! 

I have several video clips of the entire cavity of the hive, brood end and honey end, but I don’t know if I can post videos here or not. Hopefully I can post some pics of what I’m trying to describe. When you open the hive, the bees have drawn comb everywhere. The entire hive is completely filled with comb, from the top to the bottom to both sides. I counted six bars that now contain comb. 

The first picture is looking in the hive from what would be the honey end and the second picture shows what it looks like from the brood end.

Surely someone else has had this disastrous bee beginning besides us and can offer help. We just want to help the bees straighten out their combs. I can’t tell if there are eggs, larvae or even capped brood, much less any capped honey! 

I would appreciate any and all help and advice. Heck, I’ll even take some criticism. 

If need be, I have more pictures and I can answer any questions you might have. 

I thank you in advance!


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## Murdock (Jun 16, 2013)

You need to cut thru the combs (upward motion) and separate your bars. Fix it now or it will just get worse. Bees use the bar/frame beside each one as a pattern so if the first is crossed then the next will be too. Scrape off the brace comb too on the sides of the box. Once you get them straight it will be much easier. IMO, the top bar hive with straight sides is much easier to make and manage. Good Luck and welcome to the forum.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Before I forget - do insert your location into your forum profile, as some problems/solutions are very location-specific.



> First of all, please excuse my ignorance if I use wrong bee keeping terms.


Not a problem - we ALL started-off as beginners with zero knowledge. 



> We received a small swarm of bees back on June 8th of this year. They had been in a nuc box for 2 weeks prior to us receiving them. The comb they had drawn up was already crossing bars. When we placed them in our hive, we were careful not to tear apart the combs (most likely mistake #1).


Yes - as you've realised, that's a mistake. Bees will just keep copying what already exists: so wonky comb produces even more wonky comb.



> If my memory serves me correctly there were 3 or 4 bars that contained some comb. The way the combs were crossed we could not find the queen. We put 1:1 sugar water in the hive for them and left them alone for two weeks.


That was a good approach - if it hadn't been for those crossed combs, that colony would most probably be in fine shape right now.

Ok, I'll skip the rest of your post which is essentially "what do I do now ?" And that very much depends on where you're located (hence my initial remark).

The procedure you're about to undertake is going to be messy, and will be disruptive, and may even be a tad destructive - so much depends on how much time that colony has to recover before the onset of Winter.
If you were located in (say) Canada or the northern States of the US, I'd say there's a fine line between sorting this out now or leaving it 'as is' (the bees won't come to any harm - straight combs are only an issue for humans) and dealing with the problem early next year. If you were located 'down South' however, this is what I'd do ...

You already know which bars are crossed - that's very handy - so, place a small sheet of thin plywood, or a few thin sticks across those Top Bars and run a few small screws through into the Top Bars so that they're firmly held together. Then, using a long thin knife such as a carving or bread knife, run it's blade along the hive walls to cut those combs free from the sides of the box. Now you can lift all those bars with crossed combs out of the box together as one piece.

Place that comb array upside down on a convenient surface at a comfortable working height, and then you can go about separating the combs from unwanted bars. If you have chosen a warm day, and have worked reasonably quickly, then those combs will still be flexible. They are however new combs and will be soft, and so you need to treat them very gently.

Much depends on what you find, but in general terms, keep as much of the comb in the central area of a bar attached to that bar, and slice away the sides from adjacent bars. Bend those comb 'flaps' to line up with that Top Bar. You'll need to bend them slightly past the Top Bar, as they will spring back, hopefully then to line up with whatever starter-strip was installed.

I know this sounds like a contradiction - to both treat them gently AND bend them back into shape - but it's what needs to be done. Don't worry too much about any damage created in the process, as the bees will fix this in a couple of days.

Now comes the tricky bit, which is really a two-person job: with one person holding the comb array with Top Bars held vertically, the other person can then unscrew each Top Bar in turn, thus releasing it, so that it can be returned to the hive.

Before closing-up the hive, choose the straightest of the combs and place it next to the Follower Board, so that future combs will be drawn using that comb as a template to copy from.

Hope this helps and - almost forgot - welcome to the forum ... 
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

What do I do now?
Basically nothing.

I would move this entire disaster as far from the entrance as possible and just start adding new bars up front, *closer *to the entrance.
Move - I mean, just carefully move the entire block of bars intact.
Don't break anything apart; cut few combs away from the walls and carefully pry the bars from the support.
Then the entire "glob" can be carefully raised and moved OR just carefully shifted over. 

The new bars will be inspected and corrected every 2-3 days to be sure the are correctly drawn.
Eventually, the entire bee nest will move onto the new "good" bars and the "bad" bars can be just harvested off.

BUT - this process needs to be started in spring and will occur over the entire season.

Meanwhile, I would just feed them to be sure they are set for the winter and leave them alone just as is.
This is assuming some Northern Hemisphere location (which really needs to be added to the profile).

With a true framed hive, I'd go for a radical surgery, but with a TB, I'd rather avoid the hassle and even bigger potential disaster.


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## roddo27846 (Apr 10, 2017)

Please don't go in there and destroy what they have built. Think of it this way. The bees don't care about the cross comb and they can function perfectly fine with it the way it is. The only one this is bothering is you. Now let me tell you how to get it out without bothering the bees and possibly killing your queen in the process. If you do accidentally kill her this time of year the colony is lost. 

I have this problem all of the time as I run foundationless. The bees naturally build wavy comb as wavy comb has much more structural integrity than a straight piece of comb. It's not pretty to a beekeeper, but it's actually better than straight comb for the bees. But we want rid of it so we can pull frames. 

This will take a while so be patient. Bees store honey above their brood naturally, so we are going to take advantage of that fact to get this box of wavy comb off of your hive. What you are going to do is called nadiring and beekeepers using Warre hives use it almost exclusively. It just means that you are going to add boxes on the bottom of the hive instead of the top. If you think of it, this is much more natural for the bees. They start in a tree hollow from the top and they build down. They never have opportunity to build up in the natural world.

So all you have to do is add a box with FOUNDATION in it BELOW this box whenever they are ready for a new box. That will probably be next Spring. Until then just let them have this box to do with as they please. They will continue to build the box out with wavy comb. The saying is that one wonky frame leads to another -- and that's true. They will follow whatever pattern they get started with. That's okay, just don't try to separate the frames. 

What will happen is eventually they will move down into the new box and start using it to raise brood. You might even have to add another box or two to them as they grow. If I were dealing with this I would add those boxes to the bottom as well. If everything goes well for the colony, sometime next Summer or Fall the wonky comb super will fill with honey and you can harvest it, cut out that comb, crush it, and have some honey for your biscuits. The problem will be solved, It is just one box that you won't be able to examine too closely for a while. That's okay too, because bees would just as lief we leave them alone anyway. 

In short, do what's best for your bees in all situations. You can cut this box of comb to pieces and make it like you want like other posters advise, but there is a LOT of risk in doing so. You can easily kill your queen and thus the whole colony in the process. That would be a shame because there is NOTHING wrong with these bees or this comb. Just leaving it alone is your best course if you ask me. You can be rid of it in time following my instructions, and your bees will be happier and healthier if you do.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

roddo27846 said:


> ......
> 
> So all you have to do is *add a box with FOUNDATION in it BELOW this box* whenever they are ready for a new box. .....


Roddo,
What box?

This was a post about a TB hive in TB forum.
Do pay attention next time.


I do agree with the generally "leave it alone" approach.
Bees don't care, indeed.
It is the people who care for whatever reason.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

roddo27846 said:


> I have this problem all of the time as I run foundationless.


If so, are you really sure you're the best person to be advising the OP ?



> So all you have to do is add a box with FOUNDATION in it BELOW this box whenever they are ready for a new box.[...] What will happen is eventually they will move down into the new box and start using it to raise brood.


What you appear to have missed with your vastly superior methodology is that this is the Top Bar sub-forum - therefore *there are no boxes to move up or down*. LOL



> You can be rid of it in time following my instructions, and your bees will be happier and healthier if you do.


Just love that modesty ...

Greg's approach is perfectly valid, although not one I personally share, but yours is not.
LJ


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

Before I respond to all the wonderful info I’ve received, I’ve got to put my location in my profile. However, I cannot find where to add it. See the two pics below. Can y’all point me in the right direction please?

And just to go ahead and clear it up, I am located in East Central Alabama, right on the Georgia line, zone 7 I believe.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ThreeBrokeBees said:


> Before I respond to all the wonderful info I’ve received, I’ve got to put my location in my profile. However, I cannot find where to add it. See the two pics below. Can y’all point me in the right direction please?
> 
> And just to go ahead and clear it up, I am located in East Central Alabama, right on the Georgia line, zone 7 I believe.


Find: My Profile --> About Me --> Location.
Modify.


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

Lawsey me! That took some digging. This site definitely doesn’t cater to mobile users, but I’ll get used to that. 

One other thing is I don’t know how to “quote” someone. I probably will have to be on my computer. I’ll check when I get home. 

I will probably miss some things I wanted to cover from each post, but I will try. 

First and foremost I need to explain some more about my hive, but oh how I wish I had found this website two months ago...my problem might not be as severe now. Anyway, the man who helped build our hive decided at the last moment to REMOVE the little plastic “guides” from the bars that the bees attach the comb to. He said they didn’t work. So what he left us with are the bars with about an 1/8” deep groove down the middle. Even with nothing to guide them they began drawing comb — crooked. And I found out right off the bat that the slightest movement of a bar causes the comb to fall off. (I wasn’t turning it horizontally or holding the bar in any way that would jeopardize the comb, I just lifted it straight up.) That’s what caused the paddle of comb to fall into the hive bottom. 

All of the comb currently in the hive is on these “foundationless” bars. Does that pose a significant problem?

Thinking that was a problem I removed three of the unused bars and attached a “V” shaped piece of wood to them. The first picture I posted shows the wood piece I attached and also how the majority of the bars look. The second picture is from the internet so you can actually see what I tried to mimic.














I do like several things that have been mentioned so far. (Sorry I don’t know how to quote yet.) My husband and I both thought we should wait until Spring to take action trying to straighten it all up. But then, I also liked the idea of just moving the existing mess back to the end of the hive and letting the bees start anew. BUT, would I do that now, BEFORE the colder weather sets in or wait until Spring? 

There is so much I don’t know, which leaves me with nothing to make logical, sound decisions on. I hope y’all understand. I will have more questions and responses to the advice already posted...once I get this website figured out! Thank you all again. 

Oh, I about forgot, my husband has already purchased a Langstroth hive. He wants to move the bees over into it this coming Spring. I like my little TBH and am sad. Of course he has no idea how to accomplish that move though.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ThreeBrokeBees said:


> ..... Anyway, the man who helped build our hive decided at the last moment to REMOVE the little plastic “guides” from the bars that the bees attach the comb to. He said they didn’t work. .....
> 
> All of the comb currently in the hive is on these “foundationless” bars. Does that pose a significant problem?
> 
> ...


The man who helped you build your hive is no expert, I am afraid.
My bees draw on plastic all the time and have no objections; it is a norm for me.
Many of my frames are nothing but recycled plastic junk.








Any guide is better than no guide - here are sticks I picked up from trash and stapled to a top bar - these are fine comb guides.
Again, recycling trash for the comb guides is a very valid and dirt cheap approach, and bees don't mind a bit.















Whatever problem you already have with the “foundationless” bars - it is already there and just don't worry about it.
Again, this is not a problem for bees's well being.
It is a problem in your head only (since it deprives your of controlling your bees and that is the problem you are told).
But as long as your bees are alive and well - all the other problems are secondary.
Take your time; the bees are not going anywhere.
If you want to feed them - why not.

Whatever route you prefer - it is best left until spring now.
This is because IF you accidentally squish a queen (a real possibility) - it is easiest to remedy in spring, not it late summer/fall/winter.
So, i'd postpone any moves until spring; this is when the bees draw the combs the most and you take advantage of that.

If the Lang hive is already purchased, it is fine.
But in general, it is best to understand what it is you want (and what feels right to you) before you spend any more money.
Nothing wrong with the TB hives in the Southern US.
A good choice for the South.
I'd say read this very good site on the subject (you don't need to buy the book - just the site is awesome; your call):
https://www.tbhsbywam.com/


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Your comment of- "There is so much I don’t know, which leaves me with nothing to make logical, sound decisions on".

I know how you feel, first year beekeeping is definitely a 'baptism by fire'.


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## KellyW (May 16, 2020)

"*Oh, I about forgot, my husband has already purchased a Langstroth hive. He wants to move the bees over into it this coming Spring. I like my little TBH and am sad. Of course he has no idea how to accomplish that move though.*"

If you have the room and interest, there is nothing wrong with doing both types.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

KellyW said:


> "*Oh, I about forgot, my husband has already purchased a Langstroth hive. He wants to move the bees over into it this coming Spring. I like my little TBH and am sad. Of course he has no idea how to accomplish that move though.*"
> 
> If you have the room and interest, there is nothing wrong with doing both types.


Nothing but some compatibility hassle is involved (with not much justification for it).

Any TB expert should ask up front the new customer - maybe you prefer a horizontal Lang instead?
So then you can try out both setups - horizontal and vertical and learn what works for you best.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

ThreeBrokeBees said:


> ... the man who helped build our hive decided at the last moment to REMOVE the little plastic “guides” from the bars that the bees attach the comb to. He said they didn’t work. So what he left us with are the bars with about an 1/8” deep groove down the middle. Even with nothing to guide them they began drawing comb — crooked.


That explains *so* much ... If only he'd glued some popsicle sticks into the groove (from the outset), that would have provided enough of a guide for them. Still, the 'problem' exists now (problem for the beekeeper, not for the bees - they couldn't care less).



> All of the comb currently in the hive is on these “foundationless” bars. Does that pose a significant problem?


Not if you leave them 'as is'. Without starter strips in place I certainly wouldn't even consider repairing those combs as I suggested earlier - so I bow to Greg's idea of shifting those bars to the back. Best left until Spring would be my advice too. 
When you come to move them, you'll still need to fix them all together and cut away any side adhesions as I outlined earlier. Then move them to the back of the box in one piece and unscrew them there (if you want).

Nice job with those starter guides. I use popsicle sticks in my own frames to do the same job. Pretty-much anything works. But having no starter guide at all is pretty-much guaranteed to cause what's happened to you.



> ... my husband has already purchased a Langstroth hive. He wants to move the bees over into it this coming Spring. I like my little TBH and am sad. Of course he has no idea how to accomplish that move though.


Could you not run both hives ? 

What length are your Top Bars ? If they're the same length as Langstroth frames, then that could make life easier - but there are several ways of transferring bees between hives - it won't be a problem. 
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> ......
> When you come to move them, you'll still need to* fix them all together* and cut away any side adhesions as I outlined earlier. Then move them to the back of the box in one piece and unscrew them there (if you want).
> ............
> LJ


I would emphasize what LJ says - fixing the "glob" together into "one unit", prior to the move. 
A very good idea in many ways (queen safety - just one reason).
This is similar to what I sometimes do when transporting *fragile *swarm traps - temporarily fixing the top bars together for the duration of the move.


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

GregV said:


> The man who helped you build your hive is no expert, I am afraid.
> My bees draw on plastic all the time and have no objections; it is a norm for me.
> Many of my frames are nothing but recycled plastic junk.


He was new at beekeeping as well. Unfortunately we were all a bunch of blind bats!



GregV said:


> Any guide is better than no guide - here are sticks I picked up from trash and stapled to a top bar - these are fine comb guides.
> Again, recycling trash for the comb guides is a very valid and dirt cheap approach, and bees don't mind a bit.


How cool is that? And there's no worries about having it just perfect. (That's a problem I have!) By the picture, I guess there is no need for the guide to reach from one end to the other.



GregV said:


> Take your time; the bees are not going anywhere.
> If you want to feed them - why not.


I have been keeping 1:1 sugar water inside the hive; literally "inside" the hive. I did have it right inside the entrance on the outside of the follower, but I removed it for several weeks and when I went back to put it back, there was not enough room to put it because the bees had already built comb. Yeah, it's a mess. So I set the feeder inside, at the closed end of the hive under several empty bars. 

Also, my husband was told we were in "dearth" (?) and purchased pollen. We placed it in a homemade pollen feeder with lemongrass oil on it. So far it is a no-go. I even took some bees over to it and put them in there . . . they flew out! I'm going to assume they don't need/want it right now.



GregV said:


> Whatever route you prefer - it is best left until spring now.
> This is because IF you accidentally squish a queen (a real possibility) - it is easiest to remedy in spring, not it late summer/fall/winter.
> So, i'd postpone any moves until spring; this is when the bees draw the combs the most and you take advantage of that.


This is the route we'll go, even though I am impatient and want to fix it all right now! <covers eyes and shakes head!>



GregV said:


> If the Lang hive is already purchased, it is fine.
> But in general, it is best to understand what it is you want (and what feels right to you) before you spend any more money.
> Nothing wrong with the TB hives in the Southern US.
> A good choice for the South.


While researching the different hives, I thought the TBH would be best for *ME*. I say it like that because in the beginning I thought I would be the only one tending to them. I am no spring chicken anymore and I was afraid the Lang boxes would be too heavy for me to lift. There would be all the times going into the hive for checks that I would have to lift each box off and then put them back on. 

After this little hive fiasco I began wondering if it would be better if the bars were actually frames. Or would that be too much? I saw what looked like "square frames" on one of the pictures you posted, but ours aren't square.

I will definitely look at the link you provided. Thank you for it and all of this info as well,.


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

Thank you, Roddo. This is excellent information even though I'm not using a box hive...yet, anyway! I understand completely what you are conveying and it will be great info to tuck away in my "What Now?!?" file. :lpf: :lookout:


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

GregV, what exactly am I looking at on that third picture you posted? Other than yours have sides, is it the fact that the top bar of comb is all over the place and the bottom bar with the stick is in nice order?


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

Good idea!


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

KellyW said:


> "*Oh, I about forgot, my husband has already purchased a Langstroth hive. He wants to move the bees over into it this coming Spring. I like my little TBH and am sad. Of course he has no idea how to accomplish that move though.*"
> 
> If you have the room and interest, there is nothing wrong with doing both types.


That is a good idea!


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

GregV said:


> Nothing but some compatibility hassle is involved (with not much justification for it).
> 
> Any TB expert should ask up front the new customer - maybe you prefer a horizontal Lang instead?
> So then you can try out both setups - horizontal and vertical and learn what works for you best.


I honestly think the HL is what I'd prefer.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ThreeBrokeBees said:


> GregV, what exactly am I looking at on that third picture you posted? Other than yours have sides, is it the fact that the top bar of comb is all over the place and the bottom bar with the stick is in nice order?


Those are two different open frames - pictured overlapped (I took a pic for something unrelated).

The lower frame is just using a stapled twig as the comb guide - a demo for you.
The upper frame is where the bees used the remnants of existing comb as their comb guide - it also works.
Both cases are fine and the combs are nicely aligned; nothing is "all over the place".


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ThreeBrokeBees said:


> I honestly think the HL is what I'd prefer.


I would too.
A no-brainer; the frames are cheap (I get them for about free); you can just as well run them foundation-less.
Compatibility to the other Langs - priceless.
In a pinch - just use the bare top bars in your HL, just the same.


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

little_john said:


> That explains *so* much ... If only he'd glued some popsicle sticks into the groove (from the outset), that would have provided enough of a guide for them.


If only my common sense would've kicked in. I should have known better.



little_john said:


> When you come to move them, you'll still need to fix them all together and *cut away any side adhesions as I outlined earlier*. Then move them to the back of the box in one piece and unscrew them there (if you want).


What is the purpose of cutting the side adhesions away if I'm just moving the entire blob of comb, et. al.? Won't the bees be able to use the contents of these side adhesions?



little_john said:


> Nice job with those starter guides. I use popsicle sticks in my own frames to do the same job. Pretty-much anything works. But having no starter guide at all is pretty-much guaranteed to cause what's happened to you.


Well, dang if you don't live and learn! I should have questioned that move to remove the guides.:scratch:



little_john said:


> Could you not run both hives ?


It looks as though we might, but he's gonna have to get more bees. He ain't gonna use my little warrior bees. They've been through so much already and by this time next year... Oh, who am I kidding, it'll be all new bees by then (except the queen, I guess) so they won't know a thing about their ancestors' exasperating adventure!



little_john said:


> What length are your Top Bars ?


 I'm pretty sure they are 16.5" with an inch on each end cut out to sit on the hive sides.



little_john said:


> If they're the same length as Langstroth frames, then that could make life easier - but there are several ways of transferring bees between hives - it won't be a problem.
> LJ


Well, this is good news only if my husband gets his way. :no:


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

GregV said:


> I would too.
> A no-brainer; the frames are cheap (I get them for about free); you can just as well run them foundation-less.
> Compatibility to the other Langs - priceless.
> In a pinch - just use the bare top bars in your HL, just the same.


Even though I'd have to rebuild the hive, this is going into my book of things to remember. Very good info. Thanks!!


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

threebrokebees, I'll add one more comment , sure to rouse some of the folks here but hey all opinions matter.

So IMO bees follow some sort of "plan" some call it energy, some call it lay lines, some call it magnetism, could be any or several things combined.
I have found with some of my hives is ,, some positions they "prefer" to build in a certain direction.
Something worth a try, if/when you tire of cutting the comb and straightening it , is to turn the hive so the way the bees build is parallel with the top bars.
it may or may not help, but is worth a try if you have the room and ability to perform a 30 or 20 degree rotate.
Something is guiding the bees, may as well harness it as opposed to fighting it. keep track of what the bees do and then just shift the hive a bit, may save some work fixing comb. or they maybe just got off to a bad start.

welcome to the forum

so for the Langstroth idea, do both compare, one may offer an easier approach.
google "long langstroth hive" if you feel compatibility is a preference, for splits and combines. seems even plans on the net for them

GG


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

GregV said:


> I'd say read this very good site on the subject (you don't need to buy the book - just the site is awesome; your call):
> https://www.tbhsbywam.com/


So, as I was perusing this website it led me to several videos that were very interesting. Some were about thermal heat and then some others were showing how to check on the hives. 

In one of the videos, _Checking the First Package on the Third Day_, W.A. Mangum actually said this, and I quote, "It's real easy to work these hives if you know what you're doing."

No truer words have ever been spoken! Feel free to quote *ME *on that! :lpf:


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

ThreeBrokeBees said:


> What is the purpose of cutting the side adhesions away if I'm just moving the entire blob of comb, et. al.? Won't the bees be able to use the contents of these side adhesions?


Ok, this may just be a terminology thing, so I'll post a pic to show what I'm talking about ...










That is a foundationless comb in a frame of course, but you can see how the bees have made attachments (or adhesions as I call them) to the side bar, which is basically no different than the wall of a Top Bar hive would be. It's important to break those attachment points before trying to move a comb, else comb breakage is almost guaranteed to occur. Running a long knife blade along the hive wall is generally considered to be the easiest and most efficient method.

The slanted walls of a Kenyan TBH are supposed to stop such attachments being made, but during the short time I ran a KTBH the bees had clearly not read the hive-owner's manual.  

So you may have that problem, or maybe not - as Christopher Robin is famed for saying: "You never can tell with bees".

BTW - a Lang Long Hive sounds like a good compromise.
LJ


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Nice picture Little John! There are few attachment with slanted sides but they still happen. I find it usually happens because you did not center the bar and comb the last time you replaced it and the comb was too close to the sides. 

As far as moving top bar comb into a langstroth hive, it is easily done but takes time. I put 4-5 L shaped hooks into the top of the Langstroth frame and "hang" the comb from the hooks. I then use 3 or 4 rubber bands around the entire frame to keep the comb centered. The bees will attach the comb to the top, bottom and sides of the frame and then you can remove the rubber bands. They often chew through them and haul them out the front of the hive. How they do that is a mystery to me. To get it off of the top bar, I use a small paring knife and cut it off the frame at the top of the comb. I do shake off the bees first and lay it on a table in the apiary when cutting and attaching to the new frames. You may have to cut some of the bottom off to make it fit in the frame.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

*dudelt* - I agree that that's a good method to use with existing combs - but - seeing as the OP has to get new combs drawn-out before the move can take place, I'd recommend adopting a different approach.

If a new 'set' (say, about 6) Top Bars were built using whatever thickness Lang frame lugs are - what: about 9-10mm ? - then if such a Bar had a second, shorter batten added beneath it with a starter strip attached, or even a triangular-section batten (I've used both in the past), then when combs are drawn-out on those Bars they could simply be chequer-boarded/interleaved between undrawn frames in whatever Langstroth box has been selected, and gradually worked over to the side of the array before eventually being removed.

I've just dug out some examples from my 'no longer used' box for the OP to look at - unfortunately it's none too clear:










All the above have 10mm thick top bars.

At the bottom are a couple of 35mm-wide bars with triangular-section moulding glued onto them. Because of their full-width, they're used butted-up hard against each other - which is great when they're in a Top Bar hive, but less than ideal when in a framed hive.

Above them are a similar pair of Top Bars, only with a 25mm width - those are fine when interleaved between frames, but less than ideal when in a Top Bar hive where spaces then exist, so either battens need to be placed over the bee-spaces, or a plastic sheet used to cover them.

While I was digging-out stuff, thought I'd include the top two examples as well, where Warre top bars (with popsicle starter-strips) are cable-tied beneath a Top Bar and a bare frame.

Many ways of skinning the proverbial cat ... 
'best
LJ


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## Becky Jackson (Jun 7, 2013)

I just had to point out a fabulous idea from PatBeek that I've used for my Top Bar combs that fall off their bars. It's a piece of hardware cloth stapled to a bar. Not sure how to reference it here, but will try. Here is the date and title of the post. It includes pictures:

03-07-2014, 07:18 AM #3 PatBeek 

Default Re: Cut-out and hive delivery/setup on same premises, same afternoon
Quote Originally Posted by Greenride View Post
Thanks for sharing PatBeek. I'm newer to the top bars and have been afraid of the jarring shake off method to remove bees, as I must have done it differently and broke comb off, it was also very fresh comb. I also like your squish attach method for attaching comb, I've built frames to attach broken comb into my top bar hives then just remove them when the bees have mostly emerged or the comb gets built too funky.
Thanks so much for the kind words.

Well, let me clarify the 'squish' method you referred to. I actually have top bars of which I pre-made half-inch hardware cloth formed into an 'L' and to where the ends are cut to where there are stabbing-ends so I can easily just stab the comb on to each bar."

Sorry, I don't know how to put a link to the post, but you can search for it.
It's a must-have in my opinion!
Becky


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> So IMO bees follow some sort of "plan" some call it energy, some call it lay lines, some call it magnetism, could be any or several things combined.
> I have found with some of my hives is ,, some positions they "prefer" to build in a certain direction.
> Something worth a try, if/when you tire of cutting the comb and straightening it , is to turn the hive so the way the bees build is parallel with the top bars.
> it may or may not help, but is worth a try if you have the room and ability to perform a 30 or 20 degree rotate.
> Something is guiding the bees, may as well harness it as opposed to fighting it. keep track of what the bees do and then just shift the hive a bit, may save some work fixing comb. or they maybe just got off to a bad start.


That is a very good idea. And you're right, something does drive them, it has to. When we set the hive up, we did our best to turn it directly southeast, but maybe not enough, who knows, since the direction of the comb they have built is just about 20* more to the east.



Gray Goose said:


> so for the Langstroth idea, do both compare, one may offer an easier approach.
> google "long langstroth hive" if you feel compatibility is a preference, for splits and combines. seems even plans on the net for them
> 
> GG


The long lang seems to be what would work best for me, I mean, unless I can get this little booger of a hive straightened out. 

Thank you very much.

TBB


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

little_john said:


> Ok, this may just be a terminology thing, so I'll post a pic to show what I'm talking about ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sorry. I understand what you were saying now. My mind had gone back to your earlier post about cutting loose the 'wings' and repositioning them along the bar. I gotcha now. I should have realized what you were describing. 

I do dread loosening the 'side wall comb' though. That will be close to 18" or so of solid comb horizontally and 12" vertically. 

Bless these bees hearts that I got them started off all wrong.



little_john said:


> BTW - a Lang Long Hive sounds like a good compromise.
> LJ


:thumbsup: Me too!


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

dudelt said:


> Nice picture Little John! There are few attachment with slanted sides but they still happen. I find it usually happens because you did not center the bar and comb the last time you replaced it and the comb was too close to the sides.
> 
> As far as moving top bar comb into a langstroth hive, it is easily done but takes time. I put 4-5 L shaped hooks into the top of the Langstroth frame and "hang" the comb from the hooks. I then use 3 or 4 rubber bands around the entire frame to keep the comb centered. The bees will attach the comb to the top, bottom and sides of the frame and then you can remove the rubber bands. They often chew through them and haul them out the front of the hive. How they do that is a mystery to me. To get it off of the top bar, I use a small paring knife and cut it off the frame at the top of the comb. I do shake off the bees first and lay it on a table in the apiary when cutting and attaching to the new frames. You may have to cut some of the bottom off to make it fit in the frame.


I cannot picture what you are describing for the life of me. I think that if these current bees 1) survive the winter <fingers crossed> 2) are able to leave the current comb and build new -- once I relocate it to the end of the hive, I will keep these in my TBH and 3) have my husband get another swarm to put in the Lang. (For some reason, swarms are notorious for choosing the place he works. There are somewhere between 5 and 10 swarms there each swarm season.)


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Becky Jackson said:


> .......
> Well, let me clarify the 'squish' method you referred to.* I actually have top bars of which I pre-made half-inch hardware cloth formed into an 'L' and to where the ends are cut to where there are stabbing-ends so I can easily just stab the comb on to each bar."*
> Sorry, I don't know how to put a link to the post, but you can search for it.
> It's a must-have in my opinion!
> Becky


Good idea about hardware cloth.
But I would not waste 1/2 inch screening for the comb guides (have better uses for it).
Instead, I's rather use window screening (pulled from a dumpster and have lots of it).
In addition to staples, the bees should be able to glue it well to the top bar also.
I would fold and staple the screening like pictured:


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

little_john said:


> *dudelt* - I agree that that's a good method to use with existing combs - but - seeing as the OP has to get new combs drawn-out before the move can take place, I'd recommend adopting a different approach.


 I guess that is why I didn't quite understand what was being described.



little_john said:


> If a new 'set' (say, about 6) Top Bars were built using whatever thickness Lang frame lugs are - what: about 9-10mm ? - then if such a Bar had a second, shorter batten added beneath it with a starter strip attached, or even a triangular-section batten (I've used both in the past), then when combs are drawn-out on those Bars they could simply be chequer-boarded/interleaved between undrawn frames in whatever Langstroth box has been selected, and gradually worked over to the side of the array before eventually being removed.


 When the time comes, if we think these bees should be moved to the Lang, then I will have y'all describe more in depth exactly what needs to be done. I understand some of what was said, but not clear enough to actually do it. Come spring I possibly will understand exactly what's being said. Yeah, probably not!



little_john said:


> I've just dug out some examples from my 'no longer used' box for the OP to look at - unfortunately it's none too clear:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 After looking at these pictures I had to go open the Lang hive boxes from Dadant (currently in one of the bedrooms) to have something to compare to. Wow, what a difference. *(Please correct my terminology whenever you see it's needed.)* These boxes already have a sheet (foundation??) built in. _If only the bees in my TBH would've had these maybe they wouldn't have screwed them up._ Hindsight is 20/20 though and there's no need to be wishing "What if?" now. Huh? 

What I saw were 10 frames in each of the 'honey supers' (?) and the 'hive bodies' (?), all with that 'foundation' already there. Mercy, the bees using these frames will have it sooooo easy. One thing I did notice was the frames do not fit the entire Depth of the box. It looks like there's enough space for another frame. Is it supposed to be that way?

Another thing I realize after seeing these boxes is I know I won't be able to pick them up when full. They are heavy enough while empty. I know I chose the TBH because of the worry of weight, but I certainly put my bees at a huge disadvantage compared to the Lang hive. Oh well, we live and learn.


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

Becky Jackson said:


> I just had to point out a fabulous idea from PatBeek that I've used for my Top Bar combs that fall off their bars. It's a piece of hardware cloth stapled to a bar. Not sure how to reference it here, but will try. Here is the date and title of the post. It includes pictures:
> 
> 03-07-2014, 07:18 AM #3 PatBeek
> 
> ...


Oh wow! I'm gonna have to look this up. Thank you!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ThreeBrokeBees said:


> ...... These boxes already have a sheet (foundation??) built in. _If only the bees in my TBH would've had these maybe they wouldn't have screwed them up._ Hindsight is 20/20 though and there's no need to be wishing "What if?" now. Huh?


Be advised the bees don't really like the plastic foundation (I assume what it is).
They only use it when have no other choices and do it reluctantly.
You may or may not care, but at least be aware.
If want to use it - it still takes some learning.
I would not be too excited just yet.

Wax foundation is better.

If anyone, LJ has much to add on this very subject.


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

GregV said:


> Good idea about hardware cloth.
> But I would not waste 1/2 inch screening for the comb guides (have better uses for it).
> Instead, I's rather use window screening (pulled from a dumpster and have lots of it).
> In addition to staples, the bees should be able to glue it well to the top bar also.
> ...


So, are these (the hardware cloth and the screen) just examples of things to attach to the bars as a guide for the bees or are the ways to fix a broken comb? I'm a little confused now. I have plenty of screen and HC (I raise chickens and ducks and I fortify the coops and runs with HC), but if these are just to use as guides I'd rather place Popsicle sticks or just plain sticks on the bar as a guide. Please correct me if I'm thinking incorrectly about this. 

Thanks!

TBB


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

GregV said:


> Be advised the bees don't really like the plastic foundation (I assume what it is).
> They only use it when have no other choices and do it reluctantly.
> You may or may not care, but at least be aware.
> If want to use it - it still takes some learning.
> ...


I'm not sure what the foundation material is made of. It is tan colored with some brown streaks running through it and has a 'waxy' smell to it. It is not slick like plastic, rather waxy feeling. Do the companies make 'wax foundation' or is that something strictly made by bees?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ThreeBrokeBees said:


> So, are these (the hardware cloth and the screen) just examples of things to attach to the bars as a guide for the bees or are the ways to fix a broken comb? I'm a little confused now. I have plenty of screen and HC (I raise chickens and ducks and I fortify the coops and runs with HC), but if these are just to use as guides I'd rather place Popsicle sticks or just plain sticks on the bar as a guide. Please correct me if I'm thinking incorrectly about this.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> TBB


The guides for new construction, of course.

As far as fixing the existing combs, the 1/2 wire will be folded as "C" or "S", but not "L" and the sharp ends of the wire will be *protruding *(so to insert them into the combs for re-attachment), not "ends are cut".


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ThreeBrokeBees said:


> I'm not sure what the foundation material is made of. It is tan colored with some brown streaks running through it and has a 'waxy' smell to it. It is not slick like plastic, rather waxy feeling. Do the companies make 'wax foundation' or is that something strictly made by bees?


Bees make no foundation; bees make comb.
Companies make both plastic and wax foundation.
You can not really confuse plastic and wax - either material is obviously either plastic or wax.
Plastic foundation is to be "waxed" so to entice the bees to use it (bees will not use not "waxed" plastic).
Sounds to me you have plastic - tan is one of usual colors of plastic; you can not see light through it either.


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

Also, while I'm thinking about it let me ask a totally off-subject question.

When entering the hive, to do work, do you only puff smoke into the entrance of the hive or do you also puff it into the hive body once it's opened up? The reason I ask is because I am afraid the honey I extract (I'm talking way on out time-wise) would taste like the smoke. I'm not sure that would be a big hit...smoked honey! 

"Good morning dear! Would like a Smoked Honey Biscuit this morning?"​<gag>


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Your honey will not taste like smoke.

If your bees are mild, smoke may not be even needed, like at all.
I only use water sprayer in some situations (just too lazy to start the smoker).

But other bees and/or other situations do require smoke (these will be hotter bees or different projects).
The hotter the bees, the more smoke is needed to work them.
For somewhat hot bees, you need to smoke into the hive before you open it and let it sit 1-2 minutes (however you do it).

Without hand's on practice and experience, whatever I am saying you may forget tomorrow.
All this info is widely available.


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

GregV said:


> The guides for new construction, of course.
> 
> As far as fixing the existing combs, the 1/2 wire will be folded as "C", not "L" and the sharp ends of the wire will be *protruding *(so to insert them into the combs for re-attachment), not "ends are cut".


I see!


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

GregV said:


> Bees make no foundation; bees make comb.
> Companies make both plastic and wax foundation.
> You can not really confuse plastic and wax - either material is obviously either plastic or wax.
> Plastic foundation is to be "waxed" so to entice the bees to use it (bees will not use not "waxed" plastic).
> Sounds to me you have plastic - tan is one of usual colors of plastic; you can not see light through it either.


I inspected the foundation a little closer. It does seem to be plastic, coated with wax I suppose. It is a bit sticky.


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

GregV said:


> Your honey will not taste like smoke.
> 
> If your bees are mild, smoke may not be even needed, like at all.
> I only use water sprayer in some situations (just too lazy to start the smoker).
> ...


Mine do seem pretty calm, maybe Italian bees. I'm not sure.



GregV said:


> Without hand's on practice and experience, whatever I am saying you may forget tomorrow.
> All this info is widely available.


I know, I'm sorry. I hope I haven't worn out my welcome by asking so many irrelevant and dumb questions.

Thank you. TBB


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

*TBB *- there's a couple of things I want to mention before signing-off for today (we're in very different time-zones) - the first is that there are very few definitive answers in beekeeping, which unfortunately makes life tough for a beginner.

For example - Greg has just said "All this info is widely available." which is perfectly correct. There are umpteen Internet sites 'out there' which cater for prospective and first-year beekeepers - BUT (BIG but) - some of those are sound, and some are ... well, a tad flakey. So how does a beginner tell one from the other ? Short answer - you won't be able to ... yet. So - if you should come across advice which is contradictory (and that *is* guaranteed, by the way) or vague, or has a bad smell about it - then this is the place to return to for clarification. 

With contradictory advice in mind, that's a feature of beekeeping that one just has to get used to. Perhaps the most relevant example for yourself right now is the conflict which exists between attitudes towards the treating of pests.

The last thing I want to do is burden you with too much information, but there are several problematic pests, of which there are two in particular you really ought to be aware of.
The first is *SHB* (Small Hive Beetle) which can very quickly trash your entire honey crop. We don't have SHB in Britain (yet - and long may that continue), so I'll leave it to others to fill you in on how best to deal with this nasty little bug.
The second is a mite called *Varroa Destructor*, the name of which is entirely appropriate, for it stealthily decimates colonies and is generally considered to be the No.1 cause of colony deaths world-wide. So - should you treat your colony (and with a view to the future: your 'colonies') or not ?

Well, we're back to that contradictory advice thing again. I treat, some beekeepers don't.
The reasons for treating vs. non-treating aren't so much complex as they are long-winded - so I'd encourage you and anyone else new to beekeeping to research this yourself, as I don't want to risk influencing beginners with my own particular bias on this subject.
'best
LJ


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

little_john said:


> For example - Greg has just said "All this info is widely available." which is perfectly correct. There are umpteen Internet sites 'out there' which cater for prospective and first-year beekeepers - BUT (BIG but) - some of those are sound, and some are ... well, a tad flakey. So how does a beginner tell one from the other ? Short answer - you won't be able to ... yet. So - if you should come across advice which is contradictory (and that *is* guaranteed, by the way) or vague, or has a bad smell about it - then this is the place to return to for clarification.


I guess I am a bit confused as I thought BeeSource was one of the sites I could go to for first-year questions and even further learning. When I first began keeping poultry I joined a site called Backyard Chickens and that was the best thing I ever did. Any question or concern I ever had was answered. Yes, multiple times I would get a myriad of answers and it was up to me to choose. However, there is no other poultry site I would ever go to for answers. Some questions even dealt with life or death situations (of my birds). And the wonderful thing is, I am now one of the people who is able to welcome and help the new poultry keepers. 
ETA: I also am a fan of Phil Chandler's books and videos.



little_john said:


> Perhaps the most relevant example for yourself right now is the conflict which exists between attitudes towards the treating of pests.
> The last thing I want to do is burden you with too much information, but there are several problematic pests, of which there are two in particular you really ought to be aware of.
> The first is *SHB* (Small Hive Beetle) which can very quickly trash your entire honey crop. We don't have SHB in Britain (yet - and long may that continue), so I'll leave it to others to fill you in on how best to deal with this nasty little bug.
> The second is a mite called *Varroa Destructor*, the name of which is entirely appropriate, for it stealthily decimates colonies and is generally considered to be the No.1 cause of colony deaths world-wide. So - should you treat your colony (and with a view to the future: your 'colonies') or not ?
> ...


Actually two weeks ago I did see and remove two SHB. I am certain there are more in the hive, but there is no way for me to see/find them. My husband "heard" that putting a Swiffer duster in the bottom of the hive would trap the beetles. Uh, NO, it did not trap any SHB, but it did trap two of my bees. One was already dead and the other was trapped and there was no way for me to get it loose. I also placed an SHB trap (oil and ACV) in the hive. It is actually made for a Lang, but we are using it in the TBH. It hasn't trapped any beetles either.

As far as Varroa mites go, I hope there are none in the hive. My colony is very, very small and probably wouldn't last long if they got a foothold in the hive.


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

little_john said:


> I'd encourage you and anyone else new to beekeeping to research this yourself, as I don't want to risk influencing beginners with my own particular bias on this subject.
> 'best
> LJ


This is just my opinion, but I believe all beginners, of any subject, want as many answers as possible (whether biased or not) so they can make up their own mind.

In the chicken world, there are soooo many things that some people swear by while others rebuke it. Take DE (diatomaceous earth) for example. There are some poultry keepers that swear by its use in MANY areas. I, on the other hand, have no use for the stuff, for many reasons, but I won't go into why I think it's bad here.

Being biased just means you have a very strong opinion regarding something. Generally there is a substantial reason for a strong belief or opinion.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

ThreeBrokeBees said:


> I guess I am a bit confused as I thought BeeSource was one of the sites I could go to for first-year questions and even further learning.


Perhaps if I re-phrased that to read: "*If you should choose to visit *any of the umpteen Internet sites 'out there' which cater for prospective and first-year beekeepers - BUT (BIG but) - some of those are sound, and some are ... well, a tad flakey." 
What I was trying to convey is that there are dozens of those kind of sites on the Internet, invariably started by one and two-year 'experts' and very few run by beekeepers with any serious mileage behind them.



> I also am a fan of Phil Chandler's books and videos.


He is considered by some to be a kind of 'guru', who's target audience is the impressionable beginner and the gullible. I suspect you yourself may have bought into his ideas before acquiring a hive (?) - which is why you bought a Top Bar hive, which is what he promotes as part of his 'Natural Beekeeping' (whatever that means) ideology.

So - you then ran into problems with your Top Bar Hive, but have since shown enthusiasm for frames complete with foundation - which, although I don't like foundation myself - I fully agree that kind of setup is far more suitable for a beginner. But Chandler views what you have just purchased with absolute contempt. Try telling him that you've bought a Langstroth hive complete with frames and foundation, and see if he'll still speak to you ...

This forum is the best I've yet found on the Internet - not only because of it's extensive knowledge-base - but because of the *tolerance* shown here for beekeepers with different ideologies to one's own. Which is precisely why I stopped posting on Bio-bees a long time ago - because of the intolerance shown there towards anyone who dares voice a contrary opinion or challenge the party-line in any way. I note that the Bio-bees forum is now conducted behind closed doors.



> As far as Varroa mites go, I hope there are none in the hive. My colony is very, very small and probably wouldn't last long if they got a foothold in the hive.


I hate to be the bearer of bad news - but ALL honeybee have some Varroa mites - and it's impossible to get rid of them permanently.
'best
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ThreeBrokeBees said:


> I guess I am a bit confused as I thought BeeSource was one of the sites I could go to for first-year questions and even further learning. .......


TBB, you are free to ask and people are free to ignore your questions OR answer them.

But really, these same questions have been asked many, many times before and answered many, many, many times as well.
On BeeSources. In Detail. With pictures and videos.
And many other sites too.
My favorite way to search is to go to Google and try something like this - "cross comb beesource".
Take your time, find these discussions and learn from them.


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## ThreeBrokeBees (Aug 30, 2020)

GregV said:


> TBB, you are free to ask and people are free to ignore your questions OR answer them.
> 
> But really, these same questions have been asked many, many times before and answered many, many, many times as well.
> On BeeSources. In Detail. With pictures and videos.
> ...


Thank you for this. It really helps quite a bit. The funny thing is I have been unsuccessful in finding details on cross comb problems until I found this site. And y'all have been most accommodating. I really do appreciate it.

I will, however, continue to search for more answers as you've suggested.

TBB


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