# Response to a presentation



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

too funny, I dissagee on all points 

1 People overwinter nucs, so volume is not an issue, if it is, you built things way wrong
2 well if you flip it around like a lang frame, sure 2.5 painters tape
3 why not? I guess if you made all you hives different demntions it could be an issue. 2 min to chop the end barrs of a lang and trim to fit A KTBH, less then that to rubber band a KTBH comb in to a lang frame 
4 ummmm got nothing here most of my lids are styrofoam.... did the guy bild his out of 2x12s or something?
5 Steve Hardison ran them for almonds, Doc Mangum moves his all around as well. Main tricks are let some attachments grow in, place the hives so the combs long axes are in line with the direction of travel

All that being said, if your going to built your own KTBH for $30, go for it! If your going to buy one, just get a lang for about the same price, Its much easier on the beginner, and will hold it resale better if you find out beekeeping is not your thing.


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## kzimmerman (Mar 8, 2017)

No, I build my own out of reclaimed and scrap lumber, or repurposed materials. I build my Lang’s that way too. The only point I agreed with was the lack of interchange between top bars and langstroth.


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## kzimmerman (Mar 8, 2017)

We wintered a nuc this winter, btw. Late season, small swarm. No way it could have filled a ten frame up. They are doing pretty good now!


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## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

I agree with MSL: they are all bogus. It sounds like he never read a book or watched a video on how to manage them.

That being said, with respects to Dr. Magnum, if you are going to move hives a lot and do pollination, I would recommend Langs. I have moved TBHs, but it requires a friend and you have to drive very carefully. For a hobbyist who plans to leave her hives in one place forever, they are a lot of fun. If you want to become filthy rich pollinating almonds, spend a little bit more on your equipment and forget TBH.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

In my view, all those points are true, or not true, depending on the beekeeper.

We had a big upsurge in TBH's here starting maybe 10 years ago as people here read the overseas literature on them and decided to give it a try. But now, nearly all those hives are gone and the owners have either quit, or gone langstroth, and i have heard all the above reasons being given as why they are giving up TBH's.

However my own suspicion is that people who struggle with TBH's also more likely to struggle with langstroths if they make the change. Bees are bees and if you can look after them in one hive type well, you will probably look after them in another hive type well also.

When i was selling packages to new beekeepers setting up TBH's, the hives ran fine if they were near neighbors and i was helping them. But a TBH can be confusing to new beekeepers who may often do almost no management other than open, look, and close again.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

right, the KTBH is alluring to the natural let them bee beekeeper, were as in realty a lang and foundation is far better suited to a limited management approach.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Never thought of that MSL, you raise a good point.

TBH beekeeping here went through a kind of growth bell curve, an up and then a down, and is now almost extinct. Now i think about it from your viewpoint MSL, it could explain this exactly. It is absolutely true that the kind of people here that were attracted to TBH beekeeping, were of the natural, leave it alone mentality. And here in NZ, that doesn't work.


More interventionist types, or those OK with following mainstream wisdom, gravitated to Langstroths. So the demise of TBH keeping here may have been more down to the type of people each hive type attracted, than the actual hive type.

Interesting thought!


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## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

I taught "equipment" at a few bee schools this year, and even though I am "the top bar guy" I really tend to stress the advantages of Langs for new beekeepers in those classes. I can remember my first year trying to "hack" a feeder, and then hack a robbing screen, and then try to convert from a political sign lid to thin plywood to finally a built lid. None of this is rocket science, but it increased my stress my first year. (I never thought twice about what lid to put on my Lang hive, for example; buy a lid and put it on the hive and move on).

And the bloom is off the TB rose a bit it seems. 3 years ago TB keepers were maybe 5% of new members to our local clubs... now it is like 1%. Those numbers are so small I'm not sure they are scientific, but it does seem that more people arrive at class planning to use Langs (and also planning to treat).

Still: if that dude's hive is so big he cannot lift the lid, but he cannot get bees to overwinter in it, I have to wonder how drafty or wet his hive is. Or maybe he had 3 pounds of bees in a 80 liter hive. Or maybe his bees were varroa infested and dying in October, and he blamed the hive design for the December deadout. 

Mike


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

In my opinion there is nothing natural about top bar hives, Bees in a natural setting prefer a vertical nest not really a horizontal one. The reason for them in the first place was to provide something better than the hollow logs that were being used in parts of Africa. It was also designed to be simple to build with the most rudimentary tools almost with a hammer and a machete. It would appear to be a step backwards for modern beekeepers who have the tools available to use the Langstroth or AZ hive systems. However If one really works at keeping bees you could keep them in a reasonably sized bucket whoops that is what the old skeps used to be like. Finally one could say people who live in glass houses should not throw stones, well people who live in grass houses should keep top bar hives, maybe.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

The dude has been doing it for 2 years.... That is all I needed to hear.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

If anything is hands off, that is long Dadant/Layens/Lazutin/etc.
A big one.
A true "set it and forget it". 
Natural or foundation - your choice.
At the expense of mobility (but if you choose highly immobile TBH-toy anyway, might as well go for the good stuff).


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> In my opinion there is nothing natural about top bar hives


yep, all "marketing", why else would people pay more for a KTBH then a lang? 
https://backyardhive.com/collections/the-golden-mean-hive
$350 for the base unit, + $75 for the vented roof......SMH :ws:

But a KTBH *IS* a modern and technologically appropriate way to keep bees, however you are trading your "sweat equity" (to build it and work it more frequently) and lower performance(smaller crops) in order to save money. 
If you build your own , go for it. 
The nice thing for me starting with KTBHs was equipment for expansion was never an issue, just spend a few hours and bang together another hive and just about any job site trash pile meant a few nucs. My 8 year old can work a full sized KTBH production hive, witch is cool. 

But if you don't want to put in the sweat equity, buy a lang not a KTBH.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

>>Firstly, there is not enough volume to overwinter bees. He said that they had died every winter. 
>>Secondly, the combs break constantly and cannot be reattached. 
>>Thirdly, you cannot share resources with other hives. 
>>Fourth, you have to deal with a cumbersome lid that requires 2 people. 
>>Fifth, they cannot be transported.
Some of these I find ludicrous, some I suspect are valid. So what do we all think?

1. Size - A KTBH is the same as about 17 deep frames. It is strictly speaking smaller than the officially recommended size for overwintering. I personally consider it to be too small for non-African bees, and I use top bar hives that hold 25 deep frames (as bars). Having said that, many can and do overwinter their KTBH.
2. If the entrance is a slot one bee tall and 4 in wide, combs can fall off when no inspection is happening. I use 3 holes about 1 in across, never had problems with combs falling when not inspecting - for most hives.
3. can't share resources - well, yes, true if you have mediums and deeps too!
4. lid cumbersome - uhhh, well depends on how you build it. I used a sheet of plywood and put handles on. 
5. transporting TBH - I haven't tried it yet, that is coming up this summer because I am showcasing my TBH at my club's apiary - they will have a month's stay there. To transport the TBH, I will move 10 bars into a Lang box and move that around, then set up the TBH, then add the bars into it. It is more annoying than moving a Lang.

For the record, I am transitioning to Dadant deeps for my production hives. And Lang deep frames for my queen production/overwintered nuc hives. There are some disadvantages to the TBH, most critically the longer time to inspect for me compared to a Dadant deep.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I find the beekeepers who "struggle" with topbar hives are the dyed in the wool Langstroth beekeepers who try to manage it the same way. I have a local group of beekeepers that get together specifically to talk about how to manage a topbar hive since there are not many resources out there on how to do it. For those new beekeepers that follow along with what I tell them, they are very successful. For those that start to listen to 4 different local people and watch a bunch of youtube, they tend to get confused and lost in all the different approaches.

What they find very confusing is when they are told to add a pollen patty and to start supplemental feeding in February. You just don't do that in a topbar hive or it will swarm in mid-March. They also need to understand that there needs to be some type of varroa mite management in the hives from the first season onward. Too many think that the topbar hive is a "set it and forget it" kind of hive (those really don't exist anymore in the USA since we have so many beekeepers and pest pressures).

I currently run 7 full size topbar hives and about 7-10 topbar nucs each year and love them. I did branch out into a medium long langstroth so I could help another local club with queen rearing, but I do not "enjoy" that hive like I do the topbar hives. I'm also adding 2 traditional Langs (but foundationless) at the garden center where I work so we can have some local honey to sell at the garden center. (I don't look forward to their management as I struggle with lifting any size box and I will have to start using a smoker to work the bees).

A speaker should only talk about their personal experience, so the guy that did the presentation in the OP was sharing what he knew. I know differently and I'm pretty close to Maryland so I know they can overwinter here just fine. As for the comb breaking, I will not use the triangular shaped comb guides. The thin rectangle pieces of wood are much better for allowing the bees to make a full wax attachment to the main topbar. My combs are very hearty and I can move them around quite easily without breakage.

I get my kits from Beeline Woodenware out of MI and always add a long window so I can observe what it happening in the colony all season long. Their kit comes with a roof that is supposed to be reinforced with wood, but I take those 2 long pieces and make another hive with them, so my roof is extremely lightweight, but the tin grips the sides of the hive to stay on securely in most wind storms around here.

I'd be happy to post photos if people are interested, or you can find them on my bees' FB page.


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Hey, Trish,

I was curious about your experience with the entrances and trying to understand the dynamics of that. Do you mind explaining it more?

thanks,
Thomas



trishbookworm said:


> 2. If the entrance is a slot one bee tall and 4 in wide, combs can fall off when no inspection is happening. I use 3 holes about 1 in across, never had problems with combs falling when not inspecting - for most hives.


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## kzimmerman (Mar 8, 2017)

While he was going through his presentation, I, my wife and our mentor were kinda like “what?”. I was hoping to run it by some people with experience, because what he was saying made very little sense. As I said, the ability to swap resources with a Lang is about the only thing he said that sounds right. Some people shouldn’t have 🐝 in my opinion. I think he worked his ktbh, but I know his description of how he flipped the frames around is probably the reason his combs broke so much, and his inability to reattach them probably severely weakened his hives. I’m about to run a production of 3-4 of them, was a little skeptical after hearing this not so glowing presentation, but since so much sounded like bull crap, I think I’ll go ahead.


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

I guess I am becoming one of those former top bar hive enthusiasts. I'm transitioning to Lazutin-inspired hives. I would say I don't regret starting on top bar hives, it kept me open minded to try other things, which is how I got turned on the the Lazutin style hives. I still don't see me working Langstroth's any time soon. For example, I'll be receiving a Langstroth nuc in a month. I'm going to convert the frames to fit in a Lazutin square hive.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Firstly, there is not enough volume to overwinter bees.

There is no standard volume for a top bar hive. But frankly I think there is more than enough in any I've seen. I winter several every winter.

>He said that they had died every winter.

You need to have the bees at one end with food in front of them...

>Secondly, the combs break constantly and cannot be reattached.

I seldom break them so I think "constantly" is an overstatement. When they do, it's because I got in a hurry.

>Thirdly, you cannot share resources with other hives.

If all of your hives are the same size and shape, of course you can...

>Fourth, you have to deal with a cumbersome lid that requires 2 people.

Mine isn't that cumbersome. On any of the ones I have including the one I built, the Goldstar and the BeeBuilt ones. Mine is the easiest though as the lid is just a piece of plywood.

>Fifth, they cannot be transported.

It takes two people to load an established top bar hive and if there is a lot of new comb it will not be very wise, but I have transported them. I've broken comb back when I ran DuraComb in a Langstroth and it was new comb and a rough road.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> More interventionist types, or those OK with following mainstream wisdom, gravitated to Langstroths. So the demise of TBH keeping here may have been more down to the type of people each hive type attracted, than the actual hive type.
> 
> Interesting thought!


What I always said to those who wanted to do it differently, be it TBH or Warre or whatever, is: The Langstroth hive is a very good design.

To me a more reasonable variation is to do Langstroth with natural cell or partial natural cell. With partial one can use the foundation combs to help the bees 'get it straight' with the natural cell.


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## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

kzimmerman said:


> At our last bee meeting someone gave a talk about top bar hives. He had been keeping them for 2 years, and had nothing good to say. Some of what he said made no sense, some of it did. I was thinking I would run it by the people on this forum to see everyone’s opinion. Firstly, there is not enough volume to overwinter bees. He said that they had died every winter. Secondly, the combs break constantly and cannot be reattached. Thirdly, you cannot share resources with other hives. Fourth, you have to deal with a cumbersome lid that requires 2 people. Fifth, they cannot be transported.
> Some of these I find ludicrous, some I suspect are valid. So what do we all think?


I started with 10 frame Langs., added 8 frame Langs., and just went through the second winter with a Long Lang. It holds 32 deep frames with hinged vented lid, and a screened bottom with a hinged access for oil (or diatomaceous earth) pans. I am now building more of the Long Langs. for my spring splits. I have yet to find a real negative. Hive manipulations and management are easy and very efficient. Hobby beekeeper, zone 7, central Arkansas.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

unstunghero said:


> I started with 10 frame Langs., added 8 frame Langs., and just went through the second winter with a Long Lang. It holds 32 deep frames with hinged vented lid, and a screened bottom with a hinged access for oil (or diatomaceous earth) pans. I am now building more of the Long Langs. for my spring splits. I have yet to find a real negative. Hive manipulations and management are easy and very efficient. Hobby beekeeper, zone 7, central Arkansas.


Errr - relevance ? You're talking about a Long Langstroth FRAMED Hive - here the OP is talking about a Top Bar Hive (presumably a KTBH ?) - completely different animals ... 

I'm no fan of the KTBH, but that's primarily because of the 'Natural' bull which has become associated with it. 

It's a cheap and easy-to-build hive, ideal for a starter/transition hive in 3rd World countries. There are certainly some elements of truth in what the quoted speaker is reported to have said - but - it would have been a much fairer criticism if he had 'owned' those statements - i.e. if he'd used the form "this is MY experience with the KTBH (or whatever he was referring to), but the experience of others is frequently different".

Having said this, I wish I were to be given a pound or dollar for every time I've read on this forum "Help - my comb has fallen off it's Top Bar - what do I do now ?".
LJ


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## Kathleen Bourn (Oct 31, 2014)

I'm thinking that this guy either built or bought a top bar hive that he hates. It's all about designing for use.

If you want comb to be exchangeable with Langstroth frames or with other top bar hives then build the hive that way.
I started with 8 frame medium langs and when I wanted to try top bars I built them with straight sides (Tanzanian Top Bar), and the size of medium frames. I'm able to easliy trade resources between those hives.

If he's having trouble lifting the lid . . . that's why they make hinges. All my top bars have hinged lids. They are generally heavy (I like them to be in order to help the hive in high winds) but since they have hinges it's no problem.

If he's having trouble with comb detaching, he is either not cutting it loose when he feels resistance or he's not in the hive enough to make sure they stay straight and in line. I've discovered that once I slice through the attachment they rarely re-attach it. They also seem to not attach to rough sawn wood but they love attaching to glass or plexiglass. He also might look at what type of comb guide he provides. I like the V shaped wood for both my top bars and langstroth frames (that are foundationless). 

If he doesn't like moving his top bars, that's a design flaw too. I don't move mine much but the stands are such that I can just remove a couple strews and slide them into the back of my truck (by myself)

It's not the hive that's "natural" or not, it's the beekeeping. You can have a "set it and forget it" colony in any style of hive or you can actively bee keep in any style of hive. 

I love my top bar hives but I designed and built them to love. I have four different "styles" of hives and I like the top bars the best becasue I made them to work well.


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## Kathleen Bourn (Oct 31, 2014)

BTW, none of my top bar hives have cost me more than $25


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

You built them from scraps, did all the work yourself?


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## kzimmerman (Mar 8, 2017)

He didn’t specify hive design, but from the angle he was taking made me suspect a ktbh, most likely home built. He also described a long langstroth and touched on that briefly. I personally thought he was full of it, but I have no real experience with ktbh, so I thought I would get some expert advise!


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## Kathleen Bourn (Oct 31, 2014)

Yes, I use scrap wood or what I call "curbside aquisitions". I spend money on the hardware (hinges and handles) and the roofs ( I now use MDO for my top bar roofs and lang covers).
I enjoy building for the bees as much as keeping the bees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Impressive. I know few if any ladies who could do that start to finish themselves.


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## kzimmerman (Mar 8, 2017)

I do the same thing. I usually work with pallets and scraps from construction sites, although last year I managed to find a large amount of lumber from a chicken coop renovation. All kinds of 1x 2x and some well loved ply I used to build swarm traps. Last week I scored almost 150 pallets, although a lot of those have been allocated by my wife for her chickens. Scavenging is great fun, couple of months ago a fellow wanted to get rid of the wood in his shed. There was white oak, mahogany, teak and cherry. Poor guy didn’t know what he had.


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## unstunghero (May 16, 2016)

little_john said:


> Errr - relevance ? You're talking about a Long Langstroth FRAMED Hive - here the OP is talking about a Top Bar Hive (presumably a KTBH ?) - completely different animals ...
> 
> I'm no fan of the KTBH, but that's primarily because of the 'Natural' bull which has become associated with it.
> 
> ...


Sorry I aggravated you by straying from the exact question, but I had a thought that this person might not consider a horizontal set-up because of negative opinions about top bar hives.


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## kzimmerman (Mar 8, 2017)

If I were to go with a horizontal hive, it would be a ktbh, not a long langstroth, if for no other reason than curiosity. And the wife wants one, don’t forget about that!


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

kzimmerman said:


> And the wife wants one, don’t forget about that!


Then buy her the one from Beeline Woodenware and put a window in it. You can order direct from them or we have a couple of their distributors in our area that you could drive to pick it up. About $150. If you want to see a video of it, I have it on my bees' FB page. 

https://www.facebook.com/topbarbeehive/videos/1516096018416923/


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## kzimmerman (Mar 8, 2017)

I’ve been building everything we use. I got less than enamored with the commercialy available stuff. I scavenge a lot, so most of the wood is free. I’m probably going to use pallets for the top bar hive.


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## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

I just built a 3 footer for my bee club for $30, using full price pine from (big box home store) and some leftover paint and 2 door handles. If you are handy at woodworking it is one of the world's simplest projects. Of course, if you add windows and decks and lounges and legs stuff, it gets more complex.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

yep, and if your not that handy in wood work its a snap to.


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## kzimmerman (Mar 8, 2017)

I could definitely see a basic top bar hive as a good beginner project. I’ve never been known for simple though! Building with pallets, salvaged cedar, and a window. I’ll put up a build thread when I get going. But, we digress....


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

This is now my 7th year with both top bar hives and Langstroth hives. In the era of varroa, a top bar hive can really suck. Until I found a way to treat, my losses in the top bar hives were almost 100% per year. Since I figured it out a few years ago, I have had close to 100% survival every year. My lids are vinyl corrugated roofing panels that weigh about 1 pound. I tie them down with rope. I share resources with my other top bar hives all the time. The volume of the ones I build are comparable to 2 eight frame deeps and a medium super. That is plenty of food for a winter in my area. Just like with a Langstroth hive, if they run out of food, give them sugar blocks. If the bees are not making it, look at the beekeeper, not the hives. I built all of mine from purchased wood and scrap. The most expensive one was about $45 to build and about 3-4 hours of work. Finally, for reasons I cannot explain, my top bar hives catch swarms twice as often as my langstroth hives do.


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## mcr (May 5, 2018)

My brother does Langs and I decided to do a TBH. I can make them with frames. I am looking for a small amount of honey. Just want to have bees. I went to a local Bee Meeting and there was a speaker there that basically said all TBH beekeepers were stupid and cheap. I almost didn't go back because of the anal comments from a bigot. There is room for all types of bee keepers. I don't want a job making honey for sale. I want to build my own hives. And I enjoy watching my bees. I don't even care if they swarm. I plant flowers for all the bees. We should encourage ALL bee keepers. My brother wants me to produce Honey Comb for him and he'll give me honey. Enough said.


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

The guy I get bees from just says I'm crazy for using top bar hives. Well, yeah, but what does that have to do with bee hives?



mcr said:


> My brother does Langs and I decided to do a TBH. I can make them with frames. I am looking for a small amount of honey. Just want to have bees. I went to a local Bee Meeting and there was a speaker there that basically said all TBH beekeepers were stupid and cheap. I almost didn't go back because of the anal comments from a bigot. There is room for all types of bee keepers. I don't want a job making honey for sale. I want to build my own hives. And I enjoy watching my bees. I don't even care if they swarm. I plant flowers for all the bees. We should encourage ALL bee keepers. My brother wants me to produce Honey Comb for him and he'll give me honey. Enough said.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

mcr said:


> [...] I decided to do a TBH. I can make them with frames. [...]


??


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## kzimmerman (Mar 8, 2017)

little_john said:


> mcr said:
> 
> 
> > [...] I decided to do a TBH. I can make them with frames. [...]
> ...


I believe he is either referencing a long langstroth or building custom frames for a tbh. Just a guess.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

kzimmerman said:


> I believe he is either referencing a long langstroth or building custom frames for a tbh. Just a guess.


Could well be - but if so, then by doing this, he'd be turning a TBH into a non-TBH !

LJ


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## kzimmerman (Mar 8, 2017)

little_john said:


> kzimmerman said:
> 
> 
> > I believe he is either referencing a long langstroth or building custom frames for a tbh. Just a guess.
> ...


Maybe, but we are arguing semantics to some degree. In the end it does not matter as long as it works. If he’s a beginner than I suspect a sharp learning curve is in his future. If it works, we will call it the Kenyan langstroth monstrosity!


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

kzimmerman said:


> Maybe, but we are arguing semantics to some degree. In the end it does not matter as long as it works. If he’s a beginner than I suspect a sharp learning curve is in his future. If it works, we will call it the Kenyan langstroth monstrosity!


I don't understand -* EITHER* a hive is a Top Bar Hive, *OR* a Framed Hive (or a fixed comb hive, of course) - it can't be both ! How is this 'semantics' (when the term is being used in a somewhat dismissive/academic sense) ?

There are intermediate states, of course, such as 'Part-Frame' Hives, but these are not being suggested here.

The above terminology relates to the method of comb attachment, which then has a direct bearing upon the appropriate beekeeping procedures, methods of feeding, ability to super, honey extraction, and so on ...

Perhaps the confusion lies in the false assumption that Top Bar Hives are - of necessity - always Horizontal Hives, rather than being a descriptor of the method of comb attachment ?
LJ


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

So, when frames are added to a top bar hive it becomes something else, what type of modification could be implemented to render a TBH no longer a horizontal hive and still keep the name TBH? I'm having trouble picturing this.

Alex


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## nickhefferan (Jul 26, 2018)

little_john said:


> Perhaps the confusion lies in the false assumption that Top Bar Hives are - of necessity - always Horizontal Hives, rather than being a descriptor of the method of comb attachment ?
> LJ


You're on to something there LJ.

The big deal with KTBH is the fact they're horizontal instead of vertical, but they also happen to not use frames.
But in the greater beekeeping world "top bar hive" = kenya top bar hive = horizontal hive.
Definitely a misnomer, but that's how it's been.

Top Bar Hives was even the name of this section of the forum until recently, maybe horizontal hive will catch on more in the lingo in the near future?
Warre has it's own section, but it's supposed to be a top bar hive as well. Hmm...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

nickhefferan said:


> But in the greater beekeeping world "top bar hive" = kenya top bar hive = horizontal hive.
> ....


Granted, the "greater beekeeping world" expands far far beyond North America - horizontal hive of the last 100 years meant "horizontal hive *with movable frames*".

Among movable comb designs, TBH is not at all your default horizontal hive.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

nickhefferan said:


> ....
> Top Bar Hives was even the name of this section of the forum until recently, maybe horizontal hive will catch on more in the lingo in the near future?
> ..


Indeed.
We requested the change as the TBH is very a limited niche in much bigger universe of the horizontal hives.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

GregV said:


> Indeed.
> We requested the change as the TBH is very a limited niche in much bigger universe of the horizontal hives.


"WE" most certainly did not request the name change. You did.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Semantics i know, but Greg i think your hives have less in common with long horizontal TBH's and more in common with Langstroths. 

It's neither one or the other i know, but it is certainly not a long horizontal top bar hive.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> Semantics i know, but *Greg i think your hives have less in common with long horizontal TBH's and more in common with Langstroths. *
> 
> It's neither one or the other i know, but it is certainly not a long horizontal top bar hive.


Not so.
My hives have most of the commonality with the Layens horizontal hive (invented in France, 1865).
There is a variety of heirloom Old World horizontal hives originating in 1800s/1900s - none are simple top bar based (that I know of).

I, in fact, operate against any pure rules and use a mix of both frames and simple top bars however I see fit best - so I am both top-bar AND frame-based operator.
Here is a typical full top-bar comb recently pictured. 
I got many of these in rotation as we speak. 
These are easier/cheaper/faster to make than the full frames, work great, and have only few draw-backs compared to full frames.








This being said, ALL movable comb horizontal hives are managed about the same - single-level comb management style.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ruthiesbees said:


> "WE" most certainly did not request the name change. You did.


Few of us did - so to make the sub-forum more inclusive for people of many different walks of life, those who enjoy horizontal hive beekeeping (TBH included).


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

GregV said:


> I, in fact, operate against any pure rules and use a mix of both frames and simple top bars however I see fit best - so I am both top-bar AND frame-based operator.


OK i'll concede. You are a frame guy AND a top bar guy. Kinda.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

GregV said:


> Few of us did - so to make the sub-forum more inclusive for people of many different walks of life, those who enjoy horizontal hive beekeeping (TBH included).


I don't see anyone else but you in this request asking to have it renamed. https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?351809-Request-to-rename-two-sub-forums

It is certainly up to the site moderators to decide, but I feel very strongly that true topbar hive (with only topbars not frames, and bars that touch) are managed very differently than Long langstroth hives or double deep Layens hives. And I think that combining them into one subforum can lead to confusion for newbees that are looking for help.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ruthiesbees said:


> I don't see anyone else but you in this request asking to have it renamed. https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?351809-Request-to-rename-two-sub-forums
> 
> It is certainly up to the site moderators to decide, but I feel very strongly that true topbar hive (with only topbars not frames, and bars that touch) are managed very differently than Long langstroth hives or double deep Layens hives. And I think that combining them into one subforum can lead to confusion for newbees that are looking for help.



Let me just say - I represented few others.

Regarding: 
"I feel very strongly that true topbar hive (with only topbars not frames, and bars that touch) are managed very differently than Long langstroth hives or double deep Layens hives"

Let us discuss.
Let me open a new topic - should be interesting talk.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oldtimer said:


> OK i'll concede. You are a frame guy AND a top bar guy. Kinda.


Sure am.
Kinda.
I don't operate by any supposed rules.

Well, OK, here is a rule - everything I do must be dirt-cheap or free.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I don't got no rules. And that's my rule.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

ruthiesbees said:


> I don't see anyone else but you in this request asking to have it renamed. https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?351809-Request-to-rename-two-sub-forums


Well I (for one) may not have featured there - but did discuss this idea with Greg off-forum. If memory serves, I initially favoured the creation of additional sub-forums, but then recognised that this would create additional work for mods. A wider inclusion within existing sub-forums promised to be more acceptable, so I supported that idea (and still do). 



> [...] I feel very strongly that true topbar hive (with only topbars not frames, and bars that touch) are managed very differently than Long langstroth hives or double deep Layens hives.


Couldn't agree more - which is the point I was making a few posts ago - but - this isn't a perfect situation, and previous to this forum change, 'alternative hive designs' really didn't have a home. As there wasn't too much existing traffic in the Top Bar sub-forum, this seemed the best available option for housing such non-conventional designs.
LJ


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

nickhefferan said:


> The big deal with KTBH is the fact they're horizontal instead of vertical, but they also happen to not use frames.
> But in the greater beekeeping world "top bar hive" = kenya top bar hive = horizontal hive.
> Definitely a misnomer, but that's how it's been.


That's exactly right. Somebody mentions TBH in a post, and many folk automatically assume that it must be a KTBH which is being referred to.



> Top Bar Hives was even the name of this section of the forum until recently, maybe horizontal hive will catch on more in the lingo in the near future?
> Warre has it's own section, but it's supposed to be a top bar hive as well. Hmm...


Now Warre - that's an odd one. It *can* be a removable Top Bar Hive or a Top-Bar fixed-comb hive (depending on how they're being managed). With minor (and common) alterations it can be run as a framed hive, and there's even one variant (the Russian 'Alpine' Hive) which is usually seen as a framed hive - but really isn't, as the wire 'frames' are actually incorporated into the brood combs themselves, with the combs invariably being attached to the box sides - so in practice the wire frames become comb reinforcements. The honey combs however, tend not to get attached to the box sides, and so are more like removable frames ... So part of the hive is fixed-comb Top Bar, the other part is Framed ! LOL
No wonder Warre hives have their own sub-forum 
LJ


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

AHudd said:


> So, when frames are added to a top bar hive it becomes something else, what type of modification could be implemented to render a TBH no longer a horizontal hive and still keep the name TBH? I'm having trouble picturing this.
> 
> Alex


Well - the classic Warre Hive is an example of a vertical Top Bar hive. As I mentioned in a previous post, several Warre variants have been developed over the years to retain the vertical 'chimney' format, but at least some of those are no longer (strictly speaking) Top Bar Hives - in the sense that their combs are attached other than to just stand-alone Top Bars.

There have been modifications, principally to straight-sided Top Bar Hives (the so-called 'Tanzanian' format), in which 'half-length side bars' have been attached to the Top Bars in order to prevent comb attachment to the box walls (which tends to occur towards the top only). I believe these are called 'open frames', with their users still maintaining (rightly or wrongly - not my problem) that these are Top Bar Hives.

Hope the above clarifies, rather than mudding the waters even further.
LJ


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

GregV said:


> These are easier/cheaper/faster to make than the full frames, work great, and have only few draw-backs compared to full frames.


Hoffman type side bars:








Not easier, but not difficult to make.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

AHudd said:


> So, when frames are added to a top bar hive it becomes something else, what type of modification could be implemented to render a TBH no longer a horizontal hive and still keep the name TBH? I'm having trouble picturing this.


a vertical topbar hive , aka a warre


GregV said:


> .
> We requested the change as the TBH is very a limited niche in much bigger universe of the horizontal hives.


I would say there are many more horizontal top bar hive in circulation then long langs and the like, feels like a squeaky few getting the grease

I don’t know about his “we” stuff… I say keep the dissustion of langstroth hives and other frame OUT of the top bar forum. The management is vastly different.



ruthiesbees said:


> It is certainly up to the site moderators to decide, but I feel very strongly that true topbar hive (with only topbars not frames, and bars that touch) are managed very differently than Long langstroth hives or double deep Layens hives. And I think that combining them into one subforum can lead to confusion for newbees that are looking for help.


yep, you can see the confusion start to take hold in AHud’s post 

whats next…. Discussion coffin hives here because they are long? ? lol











little_john said:


> I initially favoured the creation of additional sub-forums, but then recognised that this would create additional work for mods. A wider inclusion within existing sub-forums promised to be more acceptable, so I supported that idea (and still do).


sure, lets add IMP breeding for mite restiance to the TF forum then! 
We don’t have an area for the discussion of mite resticant stock for us who are still willing to protect our livestock if we have to, while move the ball forward towards restiance, a gole MOST of us should be looking towards 

At some point inclusion removes the whole point of a sub forum, witch is not to be inclusive. and given the state of the BS search function having narrow band sub fourms is quite helpful
It seemed easy for the mods to add the new overwintering sub forum, my vote is we don't make the tob bar forum the catch all for random and rair long hives

I mean come on... The ( TTBH/KTBH) keepers that used to inhabit this forum will get little out of the of the dissustion of a long lang flow hive :lookout::lpf::lpf::lpf:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

viesest said:


> Hoffman type side bars:
> View attachment 47047
> 
> 
> Not easier, but not difficult to make.


Again - yet another wrong assumption of some dependency on Hoffmans.
Hoffman side bars are just not needed. 
At all.

Hoffman style frames spacers are not a rule and not a requirement and not a necessity.
I don't make them anymore (once tried building such frames and stopped as a waste of time and material).

So, let me reiterate - simple top bars are simpler/faster/easier to make.
I make them straight from a scrap pile.
Since my hives are deep, I staple/screw ad-hoc side bars to them as additional comb support - again - from total junk.
Like so:








The final product works fine, like so:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

msl said:


> ........
> I mean come on... The ( TTBH/KTBH) keepers that used to inhabit this forum will get little out of the of the dissustion of a long lang flow hive :lookout::lpf::lpf::lpf:


I find this issue with "separation" a superficial one.

Fundamentally, we are here about *managing movable combs on a single level.*
That is the real common denominator.
Not the "touching bars".
Here are my Layens rigs with "touchy bars" - here you go - a 100% TBH practical implementation that fits perfectly if to be technical.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

GregV said:


> Hoffman side bars are just not needed.
> At all.


I understand it now, it is horizontal stable hive, and the primary argument is "Hoffman style side bars are not needed".


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