# Overwintering queen banks



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

If you consider queens wintering in nucs...standard nucs and mating nucs, I wintered more than 400. As far as trying to winter caged queens in queenright colonies...why bother?


----------



## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

If you live in the north, and plan to make 100 early May splits, thats $1800.00 in queens. If you can raise them the year before, and bank them for next year.....


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

IndianaHoney said:


> If you live in the north, and plan to make 100 early May splits, thats $1800.00 in queens. If you can raise them the year before, and bank them for next year.....


If you live in the north, and leave your strong colonies alone...to make honey...and split up your non-productive colonies into nucs in July, you make 4-6 nucs per colony. That's $400-600 for non-productive colonies in nuc revenue. More if you figure on the honey the nucs will make and the extra honey your production colonies will make by not being split up...it will really pay off. 

Also, with wintered nucs, you can requeen all your slow colonies early...even before you plan on making all those early May splits. The queens are better than the ones you buy in the early spring, because they were raised in the middle of the summer flow, when pollen and nectar flows are at their best. 

The old plan of splitting up your strong colonies in May, and then trying to make a good honey crop with them too, has, in my opinion, been eclipsed by a better management plan.

Comments?


----------



## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I agree with Michael. Late summer splits is the way to go for sure. Over winter in a double deep with a solid board in the middle to divide (or in Palmers case, a feeder). They come out of winter nice looking!!

As for banking through the winter, it is much easer to run mini mating nucs with a deep split in 4 mini pockets with a removable divider. Each pocket holds 4 frames but when combined, they hold 10 frames. I overwintered 5 of them this last winter just with a small block of sugar candy and they all came through nicely!


----------



## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

The reason for the May splits is that I can split one hive into 4, then split them again in July, getting 16 hives from one hive. Ref http://www.mdasplitter.com Splitting to outbreed mites. My goal is rapid expansion.

If I just split in July, I lose 12 of those splits. The plan was to hopefully raise queens in July when they would be better quality, then bank them for May to avoid the lower quality queens, and save the $18 per queen. I agree that queens mated in July are better quality, I saw this first hand with a few hives that I requeened in late July last year. Fatter queens, better mating, better overwintering, etc. The main reason for wanting to bank them, is again I want the rapid expansion without the poor quality overpriced spring queens.

The other option that I thought of was to raise my own queens in mid May, so they are mated by mid June. Split in mid June, then do the same thing in early August. The problem I get from that is I then have to overwinter in a five frame nuc. If I split in early July, giving them a queen cell, they should be 8 frames of brood before winter. A queen mated after the turn of days (June 21st) does not slow down brood rearing in the early fall, so they would fill a deep before winter, this and better mating conditions is why you get better queens in the summer.

But again, my goal is to make four hives in the spring in order to make sixteen nucs in July. I would then give each of the sixteen nucs a new queen, pinching the old one. So I still get the better quality summer queens going into winter.


----------



## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

Consider overwinting in a single deep split in half. And consider using mini mating nucs that allow 4 pockets in each deep with a removable wall. You will be able to overwinter in those. This system works great.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

IndianaHoney said:


> But again, my goal is to make four hives in the spring in order to make sixteen nucs in July...


I understand what you're saying. Are you making any honey with these colonies, or mainly nucs? My goal is to make as much honey as I possibly can, and maintain some amount of self-sufficiency in the process.


----------



## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

No, I don't make honey from these hives. The purpose of these hives is mearly to increase numbers for the next year. If I can split into 16 in one year, then successfully overwinter say half of them, I can use them the next year for honey production, or I can sell the nucs. But lets say I only split in July, now I can sell three nucs (keeping one) making a profit of 180, or I can split in May, then July, and sell 15 nucs. A profit of 900, that makes May splits really attractive. However, my main purpose right now is not honey production, I just want to increase my numbers to be able to support more nuc sales.

I'll raise all my queens for the July nucs, the problem is that I can't raise queens in April up here. That leaves me two options, buy early queens from the south, or learn to overwinter banked queens that were raised by me in the summer.

If I'm understanding Chef correctly, I can make four mating nucs (two frames each) in one deep, then overwinter the queens that way. Chef, correct me if I misunderstood.


----------



## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

If you take a deep and put a solid bottom boar on it. Run a solid divider down the middle the long way and then take two shorter dividers and use them the short way. When raising queens in the sumer, they can be made into mini pockets holding 4 mini frames. Come late summer or when even you decide it is time for your last round of queen rearing, combine two 4 framers to make a 10 frame mini nuc. A deep can hold either 4- 4 frame mini pockets or two 10 frame nucs. 

I just placed a sugar cake on top of each of the inner covers to these and it works great. 

Here is a pic


http://lazybeestudio.com/chef_isaac_s_queen_kitchen.html


----------



## stangardener (Mar 8, 2005)

is the kitchen design better than using half the number of standard size frames in a standard size super? if so why?


----------



## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

My thoughts exactly, why not just use two standard deep frames with division boards between them? Seems like the modified box and the smaller frames would be an extra investment.


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

IndianaHoney said:


> My thoughts exactly, why not just use two standard deep frames with division boards between them? Seems like the modified box and the smaller frames would be an extra investment.


Most of my nucs are wintered in 4 standard deeps. I don't think 2 would be a big enough to winter here in Vermont.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/readyforwinter.jpg

The mating nuc boxes are for getting queens mated. There are 4 mini-combs per section, with a movable division board feeder between each two. This allows for expansion from 4 to 8 combs...which is how I winter them. It is possible to winter in the 4 way configuration, I just don't choose to. Using mating nucs makes it easier with catching queens. Not so much comb to look at, and bees to wade through. I also like the cubical configuration of each section in the 4 way. I think this conforms more closely to bees' natural cavity shape...rather than long and narrow as two standard deeps would be. Yes, it is more investment, but if you're raising many queens, mating nucs are the way to go.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/scan0005.jpg
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff61/frenchhill/scan0006.jpg


----------



## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

For me, I like this configeration because it provides me the most options and flexability. 

Plus, it is less resources as far as stocking the mating nucs.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've done a few in banks overwinter. First you'll need a heat source so they don't cluster and leave the queens behind. A terrarium heater is what I've found works best. Second, you'll have to steal some bees from other hives from time to time to get them all the way to spring. Thrid, you'll have to accept that you'll probably lose at least half and maybe more.

Nucs with one queen a piece are a more reliable method, but take more bees.


----------



## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Thank you guys for the answers. I really don't want to lose half of what I raise, so I guess banking overwinter is not a good idea. I guess I'll just buy some early spring queens, then get rid of them when I raise queens in the summer and split those hives again.

I think I'll get a mating nuc and give it a try.


----------

