# I'd like to tap the cumulative knowledge of commercial beekeepers



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Double queen hives work fantastic


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Read "Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey", Brother Adam discusses management of similar sized colonies. He used division boards to manage the amount of comb the colonies had available to them when weak and during buildup. If you don't want brood in your supers you wild need to use QE.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

I am curious as to why you are undergoing this change? There must be a perceived benefit. As commercial beekeepers it runs against the grain to have oddball equipment. In Canada many guys run double deeps... others run singles with queen excluders. Very very few run triple brood nests. Ultimately as commercial operators the outfit gets sold and oddball equipment limits potential buyers. I don't think future sale is a great concern to you judging by your tag line.

I would just say go for it, enjoy the process.

As gas as swarming... equalize colonies to the best of your ability. Slow down the very strong and strong ones helping out the weaker ones that could potentially have SHB issues.

As far as occupying honey supers wait til the queen crosses into the honey super then use queen excludes. Yoy will have to get those custom made. Not a big deal. Aetal fabricator can handle this along with 5 mesh wire.

Good luck.

Jean-Marc


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>I am in process of converting my bees* all *to Dadant depth 11 5/8 square hive bodies with 14 frames and appropriate tops and bottoms.

I am not commercial, but made 12 similar hives in 1979 after visiting Brother Adam. One thing I have learned about trying new equipment, don't go all in at once. Like Jean said, they will have little resale value being odd sized. I got square queen excluders from Swienty. I manage swarming by opening up the brood chamber making sure it is not full of honey. They will have no more reluctance going up into the supers than with other hives. The amount of brood you get will be determined by the fecundity of the queens. You might consider not making square supers but using the boxes you are abandoning as supers for the time being. As I ran out of supers in 2014 I supered this 12 frame hive with an 8 frame box.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I'm not worried about resale. I've been in beekeeping 46 years now and will probably still be beekeeping when I am 90.

I have about $3000 to put into new beekeeping equipment so I am going to put it into square deep hives. I have already arranged to sell my old equipment to another beekeeper in the area. I will get about $2000 from the sale to pay toward the new equipment.

I will use the extra cash to expand to 30 colonies - all in square deep equipment - which is as many as I want for honey production.

I am already planning to build my own queen excluders by cutting up some old wire excluders I have but have never used. I will cut them into four sections and then re-assemble them into a wooden frame so that I can easily divide the box below into either 2 or 3 nucs.


Advantages of using large brood chambers:

1. Permits use of a single box for all the brood produced by a single queen
2. Reduces the number of frames that have to be inspected when manipulating the broodnest
3. Properly positions the colony to produce honey from a fall flow that otherwise would be placed in the broodnest
4. Reduced cost of equipment by using one box instead of 2 for broodnest
5. Does not present a barrier to the queen from moving across honey to lay eggs

And the disadvantages:

1. non-standard equipment
2. Weight in a single brood box (not good for bad backs)
3. Wintering concerns if the combs do not contain crossover holes
4. Many extractors won't work with the larger frames
5. All equipment has to be hand built, not available from any of the manufacturers


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## JohnBruceLeonard (Jul 7, 2015)

I will be very curious to hear the responses to these questions, as many of them could apply to the standard set-up in my area. (10 frame Dadant deeps, single brood box.) I would not presume to offer any advice from out of my limited experience - but a brief comment on the following two questions, on the basis of what I know of the common practice of local commercial beekeepers:



Fusion_power said:


> 8. Should I invest in hardware to overwinter nucs for spring expansion?
> 
> 9. I want to keep the supers brood free. Would you expect any issues with queens moving up into the honey supers and if so how would you deal with it?


Regarding number 8, the beekeeper from whom I purchased my bees, who is the principle beekeeper of Sardinia, overwinters nucs, both for expansion and for sale.

Regarding number 9, all the beekeepers that I know here in Sardinia use a single ten frame brood box only, and all of them, if they want to keep the queen out of the supers, use queen-excluders. Of course, they are running large cell, and four frames fewer than you intend to, and those two factors combined could very well make the difference.

John


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Fusion_power said:


> Advantages of using large brood chambers:
> 
> 1. Permits use of a single box for all the brood produced by a single queen
> 2. Reduces the number of frames that have to be inspected when manipulating the broodnest
> ...


1. A single deep langstroth has sufficient brood area for all but the most fecund queens.
2. A single deep has 10 frames - 4 frames less than you are proposing
3. A single deep achieves this as well
4. A single deep would be less expensive than your large non-standard hives.
5. A single deep achieves this as well




Fusion_power said:


> And the disadvantages:
> 
> 1. non-standard equipment
> 2. Weight in a single brood box (not good for bad backs)
> ...


1. To me this a huge negative
2. A single deep langstroth would be lighter
3. Not a real concern IMO
4. The same as 1
5. Again this is huge. Propolis-etc here in Canada do offer some Dadant dimension equipment.

I think there are some advantages to the hives you want to go to, but they just don't outweigh the disadvantages. If they did, the industry would have moved in that direction years ago. Since you already have langstroth equipment, why not adjust your management style and try single deeps? I just don't think you'll see a big enough performance difference to make the custom hives worthwhile. There is a beekeeper in my area that developed his own hive (the DE Hive), and it does have some advantages over the Langstroth - but again they don't outweigh the disadvantages of custom equipment.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

zhiv, I've had 46 years running Langstroth deeps, double deeps, and various combinations of deeps and shallows. All but two of my colonies are currently in singles after having been carefully managed to get enough honey stored for winter. Here in my climate, one Langstroth deep is a recipe for massive swarming as well as not providing enough honey for normal wintering. Running a deep and a shallow causes problems because frames are not interchangeable. Running double deeps leaves too much honey on the colony eroding margins for honey sales. I have all the experience I care to gain from running these configurations.

So to make it abundantly clear, I don't care one whit about standardization. These hives are for me and me alone. I intend to find out just exactly what it was that Brother Adam found and wrote about in Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey.

If I buy equipment from Mann Lake, my fully equipped cost for one deep brood chamber ($35) and one shallow super ($25) is $60. Two deep Langstroths ($35 each) cost $70. If I buy a square single deep brood chamber locally, make my own frames with estimated labor and materials cost of $1 each, and purchase foundation from Dadant, my cost is $54 to set up a single deep with 14 frames. That gives me a cost advantage of 10% vs deep and shallow and 26% vs double deep. Since running a single Langstroth deep as often as not results in one or more swarms without intervention on my part, I'd say the cost advantage in that case would be the entire value of my honey crop.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

After much rumination, I believe there are things to be said that you will not want to hear. I apologize.
You wrote:
Here in my climate, one Langstroth deep is a recipe for massive swarming as well as not providing enough honey for normal wintering.

Horse Hockey! We have run single deep brood chambers for over 100 years and have not had significant swarming. We winter with the bees in a single deep and do not see significant starving. This is in Wisconsin.

I do not believe that a different hardware situation will change much. The bees don't care what the hive looks like. They do care if their requirements are not met, such as empty space for swarm prevention, and enough food for winter. With proper beekeeping, there is plenty of room in one deep for empty comb in swarm season, and plenty of room for stores in winter. It is up to the beekeeper to "make it so"

Again, I apologize for acting like the south end of a north bound mule, but I felt it needed to be said.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Please feel free to comment on any or all of the above or to add other concerns at your <<
>>to make it abundantly clear, I don't care one whit about<<

You ask this question to commercial Beekeepers, what answer fo you expect? An impractical answer? It's not about the size of cavity, it's about its managment. And managing standardized equipment only makes sense


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Roland, and Ian, thanks for the comments. I think both of you focused on one concern while a goose flew over your heads.

In the fall, I would raise queens and get them mated in mini nucs. I would install a divider in one of the deep hives and introduce 2 queens setting up what in effect is 2 nucs though with comb capacity equivalent to 9 Langstroth frames on each side. I would overwinter in this configuration, then manage the bees for buildup the next spring. Sometime around April 15th, pull a queen to sell and remove the divider. This gives me the potential to hit the main flow the 1st of May with a single queen and 120,000 bees in one hive. Go through the honey flow as a single queen colony. Raise queens again in July and repeat the process for the next year.

How much would the queens be worth? They would be 7 months old and have laid through fall and started through spring. I think I could safely sell them for $20 or $25 each. I'm in the deep south so running 2 queens is wasted after April 30th. I can run 2 queens over winter and sell a queen in spring then go through the flow with a single queen and a super size colony of bees. If one of the nucs fails over winter, no problem, I remove the divider and still have a productive hive of bees for the flow.


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## babybee (Mar 23, 2012)

But for 40 max hives.... let's face it, it's not commercial and certainly will not make you any real money selling those few of queens. Now I would say the Dadant box may have become standard vs langstroth if there had always been pallets and forklifts but it's past. But still I say go for it. If that's your passion then do it, but I wouldn't ask for much advice here.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ok, do what you want, have fun.

As for Ian and I having geese fly over - fat chance. Everything is frozen here and they would starve. Don't expect to see them in Wisconsin for 4-6 weeks.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Roland... A goose never makes it over ... POW!!!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ian- so you do eat "fast food".

Crazy Roland


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I suspect all he eats is "slow food" meaning one that did not fly fast enough.


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## Rolande (Aug 23, 2010)

Fusion_power said:


> 3. Raising queens via Cloake board won't be feasible, I think I can do this with a vertical divider splitting a box in half. How would you use a square deep to raise queens?


We have a few bodies which take 13 British Standard frames, they share the same footprint as the modified dadant. I've been looking at a very similar plan this last winter; still to do the cutting but I think that there may be scope in the idea although I doubt that the smaller BS box will work as well as your new boxes (although there is an alternative, short lugged British frame with almost the same comb area as the langstroth deep which we may be able to use instead).



Fusion_power said:


> 9. I want to keep the supers brood free. Would you expect any issues with queens moving up into the honey supers and if so how would you deal with it?


Yes, without doubt. We use excluders on 11 frame modified dadants. At certain times of the year they may also be ran with a dadant shallow extension to the brood and it would be very unusual for a good queen not to move up into the shallow.



Fusion_power said:


> 10. I've already verified that my extractor can handle the 11 1/4 inch frames. I don't expect to extract them, but want the ability to do so if and when needed. Can you think of any other area where honey handling might be a problem?


I have a feeling that you'll possibly find it a useful management tool to be extracting some of those frames just to keep the nest open. The 11 frame md works nicely but I can visualize a lot of backfilling in a box of 14 jumbo frames -which is fine except I think there may then be a tendency for the outer combs to be left, solid, from year to year. Just speculation of course and I'll be pleased to hear how it goes.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I keep talking about these custom built double queen units that are supered with standard equipment. So easy to make even a girl can do it.  Holds 15 deep frames (or jumbo's) on each side in the bottom unit. 








































This is a standard deep frame. Would fit a jumbo or can be customized for what ever size frame you want. 










Bees mingle in the center deep(s) above an excluder, queens kept below, but can venture up to the box's placed directly above there own side.



















I believe Ian has mentioned he likes to confine the queen to the bottom deep after the colonies initial spring expansion has occurred. With 15 frames in the bottom unit for each queen, you could easily do that here and not worry much about suppressing a prolific queen.










Fall photo:










January photo:










1 1/2 material for cold climates, Larger, deeper broodnest area and is compatible with standard frames and equipment, including excluders.

On it's own pallet, make it easy to move with fork lift, wide base makes it sturdy for transport.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Dar,

I don't have much to add but, have you seen the book on the Dadant System of Beekeeping? It may have a couple of nuggets that might be beneficial.

I thought about doing the same thing but decided not to.

Tom


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"I am in process of converting my bees all to Dadant depth 11 5/8 square hive bodies with 14 frames and appropriate tops and bottoms. "

And you are asking about this in a Commercial Beekeeping Forum?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Yes Mark, I asked in the commercial forum. I really wanted to see if any commercial beekeepers would think through the logistics of operating bees in these hives and perhaps could offer some advice on how they will differ from management of bees in Langstroth equipment. So far, I have had a response from ODFrank who visited Brother Adam nearly 40 years ago and has used square deeps to produce honey. I had a response from Roland, Ian, and Zhiv essentially suggesting I have 3 loose screws and a floating marble (ever see a marble float?) for making the attempt. The best suggestions were to read Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey and Dadant's method of beekeeping. The reason I am building these hives in the first place is because I read these books - and more - 20 years ago and again in the last few months. Pages are falling out of Beekeeping at Buckfast abbey and my copy of Breeding the Honeybee is a dogeared much thumbed relic. Brother Adam saw something so important in these washtub size hives that he wrote about it and described it and told why it is important, yet nobody I know other than Oliver D. Frank has tried keeping bees in them. I spent 46 years keeping bees in Langstroth boxes gradually coming to understand their limitations. Now I want to understand why Brother Adam tossed Langstroths nearly 100 years ago and changed to something more suitable. It was not just the bees he bred that made a difference, the method and equipment also played a part!

Is there a commercial slant? Beekeepers trucking to almonds are converting to 8 frame equipment to get more hives on a truck. There is no room to manipulate any further by packing bees denser with current equipment. I can prove how a square deep hive can hold 2 colonies of bees with 20% better brood density than is possible with Langstroth 8's or 10's. I can show how to manage these hives to produce an overwintered spring nuc or an overwintered young queen plus all the benefits of a 2 queen colony for honey production. Yet so far there is no serious interest, only comments of "have fun". I hoped to see comments from other beekeepers who have seen Brother Adam's hives in operation. You would think I brought a heffalump to a pink tea party.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Fusion_power said:


> I had a response from Roland, Ian, and Zhiv essentially suggesting I have 3 loose screws and a floating marble (ever see a marble float?) for making the attempt


Ha ha ha ha 

FP, interchangeable, standardization, resale value $$$$, efficient, durable , practical 

I've worked in 10 frame, 5 frame, 6 frame equipment, single queen, two queen, three queen, side by side , overtop set ups all very successfully. I use mini mating nucs and I've built mating nuc complexes keeping all my mini frames standard - which fits a frame to fit a standard. 

The way I see it, the standard was picked long ago before my time and from that I've benefited by having a standard to follow which helped secure my early start up costs. 

If you are having trouble in a single, put them in a double, or cut them into nucs. Just suit the management to suit the size. 

And if your needs are specialized, I think you already have your answer 

If it was up to me, these boxes would be 11 frames :thumbsup:


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

That's an interest idea Lauri. Instead of stacking their nest up, your bulging it out... And taking full advantage of a two queen hive from full sized hives. That makes a lot of sense. It keeps the nest centred, but still sharing, and keeps the STACK of boxes lower. 

Good job


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Ian said:


> That's an interest idea Lauri. Instead of stacking their nest up, your bulging it out...


But as you know, can only push them so far horizontally. 

This keeps the broodnest compact, yet still has room for several frames of brood. 

I know you keep yours a lot tighter than this. I don't have the guts for that. This seems like a happy medium.

There's a lot of ways a person could manage a unit like this. So far they are working great for me.

I think the trick will be figuring out the best way to keep them productive in the center deeps throughout the season. Right now, the center deep is full of capped honey/feed and abandoned by bees. As one would expect. all bees are in each queenright side occupying both the top and bottom sections.

This spring, couple frames of brood placed above the excluder in the center, possible early stimulative feeders only in the center section, perhaps the top entrance only in the center, forcing the bees to at least be directed to the center box's. Without full use of the center box's there would be no real advantage over standard equipment, except for room for a massive volume of bees. 
That will be something to work on, but I'll figure it out if it is an issue.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ian, your two queen setups were two 4 or 5 frame nucs below an excluder - is that correct?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Yes, two nucs under an excluder, supering up top


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Been there, done that. When you run out of equipment, you do what you have to to accomodate.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> "I am in process of converting my bees all to Dadant depth 11 5/8 square hive bodies with 14 frames and appropriate tops and bottoms. "
> 
> And you are asking about this in a Commercial Beekeeping Forum?


Sorry, FP. Some times I should keep my thoughts to myself.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Mark, I have thick skin and an attitude of d__n the torpedos, full steam ahead. I'm not likely to get hurt, but thanks for the concern.


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