# Survive winter, but die out in spring-support please



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Please clarify, are you saying your friend's hives died out as well?


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

What did they look like dead? All clustered together? Heads in hive and tails sticking out? On the bottom board? Were they wet? Was there any capped brood on the comb after they died? In order to give you a better answer, please tell us more about their condition when you found them dead. Pics would be better.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes pics of the brood will be best.

On the face of it though I'd be leaning towards mites as the main cause. Don't worry you are not alone, high losses are something most treatment free beekeepers have to go through, I'm told.

So much so that it's now being recommended if you want to go treatment free it's best to start with 4 - 10 hives so you are more likely something will survive.

More guidance could be given about your pattie, but not in this section because this is treatment free, treatments may not be discussed, you could ask in another section.


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## Jpoindexter (Oct 22, 2010)

Hive beetles thrive in hives that are in the shade. Move your bees to full sun. Did your bees starve to death? Was there any honey stored? Were you feeding sugar syrup?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Lulubee - Was your first frost early? What was your honey crop like? Another beekeeper that is in Racine county had poor wintering this winter also. 

Crazy Roland

P.S. Looks like you are not treatment free any more.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

They died out because you went into the winter with heavy mite loads. This caused a decrease in young healthy bees that could have been raised in the fall. Thus the bees that went into the winter cluster were older and more worn with a lack of vitality. Thus when brood rearing kicked in, the heavier mite load that was present preyed on any brood that was trying to be raised. Thus there were not enough healthy young bees emerging to take the place of their older comrades at the time when the population changes. So your old, worn, stressed out, mite infested bees just could not take it any more. Thus the bees perished from the face of the earth. It is just that simple. Another case of sadder but wiser. TK


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

A pretty good description of why mites mostly kill hives winter / early spring.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

The sadder part is the bees died. The wiser part is what I hope this beekeeper figures out. TK


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

The wiser part is, you'll have to do something different than what you were doing. The approach you took didn't work. Since you posted this in the treatment-free forum, I'll assume that is the route you are interested in pursuing.

Everyone experiences winter loss to some degree. Having only one hive is a tough way to go. You have no other resources to draw from should something happen. Did your hive have large cell foundation? If so, I would suggest you buy some small cell foundation for your next bees. Some have had good instant regression using the Mann Lake plastic foundation.

Try to start two hives this time as well. I lost three new hives this winter, but two that have been through a couple of winters did well. I will be splitting from these. You will want to work towards having bees that are acclimated to your area. If you can get bees locally, all the better. Wish I had extra to help you out, but I'm building back up after a forced hiatus of 5 years.


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## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

I concur with Barry on this one. Find local beekeepers that have survival bees, it is tough to lose your bees, we all have lost many hives over the years, you are not alone.
This year I was extremely fortunate with no losses, 17 hives our of 17 came through the winter, I did lose a bee tree that is sitting in my bee yard though and I think I may have caused that.
Hang in there, keep trying and learning.


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

yes,common for treatment free bees i finally figured it out..must re-queen as soon as you can first sign of drones.I take 2 frames of eggs 2 frames of honey 1 empty frame place in Nuk with no queen.they will build several queen cells once mated and laying remove origanal hive queen and give 3 frames of honey with bees two empty then she will produce till she passes.use for grafting more Queens or rob for her brood for support for new nuks.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

I think Barry is right in suggesting you try something different.



> Looked like dysentery with brown splotches on box.


I see this as a good indication your bees were under stress and with living in the windy city a cold draft in the hive through the winter may have been part of your issue. You could place a wind barrier around your hive so that no wind can blow against or into the hive would be one suggestion that may be helpful.


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## Oberlinmom (Mar 11, 2009)

I've got to add my two cent's. Unless you are seeing brown splotches in the box I wouldn't think it's dysentery. Imagine what it must be like to get the first cleansing flight after a long winter. Splotches will be everywhere! 
Second, the first time it's warm enough for them to fly I always check to see how much they have in stores. Is the hive still heavy? Your bees may have made it through the winter only to starve in the spring. Just because they can fly doesn't mean there is anything out there to eat. Our association advocates spring feeding ASAP. Next year when it's getting warmer check for capped honey. If it seems light feed. You might have some pollen patties made up too so that they can get that protein boost and start laying. 
Last but not least I think you did everything you could with the knowledge you had. These are just some grumpy posters who aren't being very helpful. Thankfully they are not the majority here. Good luck!


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## lulubee (Apr 14, 2010)

Thank you to all who have posted. To clarify, I live in an urban, unfenced neighborhood, so I don't want more than 2 hives. I have 1 hive and my friend has another. Our idea was that if one hive were lost we could split. But we both lost our hives this year. We had same stock, same methods. 

When alive there were 6 or more frames of honey, so I didn't feed them. When they were dead I inspected the hive and found 1) Nosema symptoms inside. 2) there was no bee brood that I could see. 3) there were 2 groupings of bees, some with their heads in the comb. Perhaps they got separated or were unable to travel to the honey due to cold. 4) There were several frames that had capped honey in top third and an unknown uncapped substance that is white and thick in the middle of the frame. When I looked closely it looked to me like fermented honey or some type of larvae (SHB?). I don't think it is bee brood and it doesn't match the disease descriptions and there was no odd smell. 

Pictures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/?saved=1 

My goal is to be natural/treatment free, so I will look to go with small cell and local queens.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

franktrujillo said:


> yes,common for treatment free bees i finally figured it out..must re-queen as soon as you can first sign of drones.I


Why? Drones are good....are you talking about a droney layer? 
I would find some treatment free bees. Chances are that you got some Italian bees from a Georgia breeder that treats like crazy via dadant. Try local or some other person that does not treat...never go cold turkey on a treated line! 

mike


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

From your pics...it looks like there was some nosema but the real problem looks like your weather warmed up, they moved around and when they clustered up when it got colod again they were too far from feed and starved/froze to death.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

alpha6 said:


> they clustered up when it got colod again they were too far from feed and starved/froze to death.


I agree with this and would say your hive had too much ventilation. Looking at your pics I see that with the screened bottom and entrance was more like the full length by 1 3/8". The final cluster leaving their honey below looks to me that they were doing their best to find a spot away from the cold. My view would be to snug up the hive in an attempt to relieve some of the cold stress as much as possible.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I'm a newbee but I only see one deep. That is two small a colony to make it through the winter in northern climates. Do not prop up the cover but do cut a notch in the inner cover facing down. How big was the hive going into winter?


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

The bees look all spread out and unorganized, with a couple or more very small clusters and then a spread out pile on top bars. I might suspect a winter failed queen was part of the issue.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> Why? Drones are good....are you talking about a droney layer?
> I would find some treatment free bees. Chances are that you got some Italian bees from a Georgia breeder that treats like crazy via dadant. Try local or some other person that does not treat...never go cold turkey on a treated line!
> 
> mike


How do you get to treatment free from a treated line?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Personally, I went the route of cold turkey. I tried the treatment route but realized I was heading down a road I didn't want to be on. You can try the small step at a time approach, but I don 't think it will work too good. Half the battle is making up your mind that you won't use treatments. Then, take all the available knowledge and tools that treatment free keepers have and decided what route you want to go.

Since I started before there was any kind of track record in treatment free beekeeping outside of the Lusby's and a few others, I followed what Dee suggested. Pulled all my existing comb out and shook all the bees onto SC foundation. Most hives died, but a few made it and from there I expanded. I had EFB, but in the third year, things changed around and stabilized. If you can get regressed bees, use them. If not, use what you can get and work at getting SC comb drawn.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

Thank you. I have already converted my hives to 11-frame brood boxes and am working in that direction. What are the indicators of a teetering point to go without treatment?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Not sure I understand your question. Can you rephrase it?


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

in the third year, things changed around and stabilized. If you can get regressed bees, use them. If not, use what you can get and work at getting SC comb drawn.

How did you know things turned around in the third year? What were your indications? Just no more foulbrood?

Kind of going off topic here but, In working toward small cell beekeeping I have converted my brood boxes to 1-1/4" frames. do I also need to change or replace my foundation as well? I am thinking about going foundationless.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Indications? Bees were not dying. Mites were hard to find. Balance regained. No more purple-eyed pupa showing up.

I only had EFB in one hive on a couple of frames. Took them out and moved on.

I've not tried foundation-less. I haven't cut frames down an 1/8" either. What are you using for foundation?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Ccar if you want to go small cell, and your current foundation is not small cell, yes, you will have to change your foundation.

But it's not just as simple as that either, as I recently discovered. The first step will be to measure your exsting cells to see what size you have. If your current cells are 5.5 mm's, you will have to follow several steps to get the bees down to 4.9. if your current cell size is 5.2 or 5.3, you may be able to do it in one step.

Be aware, small cell is controversial and I for one, am not endorsing it, although I have started some bees with it. Because of all the conflicting information I'm trying it myself. But some people have tried it & had no success.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

I am using standard wax coated plastic, a couple of different mfgrs and wooden frames. I am working on swapping out frames every year in three year cycles but have not made it there yet. Maybe I should get small cell foundation at that time?

As far as switching to treatment free, I am just trying to figure out how to work with what I have to get there.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Edit - double post


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Drop StevenG a pm. He is more successful than most treatment free beeks, and like you he is not using small cell.


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## Bee Goddess (May 11, 2011)

I had the same problem and had no mite issues, guess that theory isn't accurate for everyone. 
Strong up until 2 weeks before Spring then POOF!
However, recovery was fast from wild swarms that took up in empty hives. All is well.


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