# Sticky  extended release oxalic acid



## Norcal Mtns

squarepeg said:


> This method of application of oxalic acid is not yet approved by the EPA. However, EPA does not require an Experimental Use Permit for a limited number of hives. Check with your State Lead Agency.


That sounds like good news! And it looks like he now recommends 60 to 70 day treatment for best results. We are fortunate that he is willing to research this method and share the results from his bees at his location.


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## jwcarlson

Totally hypothetically and completely off the record... has anyone done this new recipe this year?
I might know someone who is using it, guy I know of down the road.


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## jtgoral

Many ways to skin a cat. I will do that in a week or two. Last year was a success.

Alternate recipes:









Recipe and in action:


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## Norcal Mtns

jwcarlson said:


> Totally hypothetically and completely off the record... has anyone done this new recipe this year?
> I might know someone who is using it, guy I know of down the road.


New recipe? A guy down the road from me has been using 1:1 for the past two years and has had good results, but he left the pads in for 50 to 60 days. I will tell him about the 60 to 70 time frame.


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## jwcarlson

Norcal Mtns said:


> New recipe? A guy down the road from me has been using 1:1 for the past two years and has had good results, but he left the pads in for 50 to 60 days. I will tell him about the 60 to 70 time frame.


It feels like his recommendations change quite a bit (understandably so). The direction it is going makes sense. I tried what I think is his initial "recipe" about five years ago - it involved glycerin, OA, and water. Heat everything up and then microwave half a roll of shop towels. In principle this isn't that different, I guess, but I didn't think the shop towels worked worth a darn. But when I saw some of the updated information it addressed some of that, so I thought I'd give it a shot. I mean, suggest to the guy across the street that he gives it another shot.

I do wish I would have done some mite counts before. The first 24 hours the pads were on I found an average of 2-3 mites on my four hives with sticky boards (without anything sticky because I forgot vaseline). Nearly every mite was still moving a bit, but looked to be in very rough shape. I then left them on four days with vaseline and checked them again. Counted more than 100 on each board and one of them had ~250. Was counting from pictures I took before I scraped them, so not super accurate as there's some debris that could look mite-like that isn't. But in person there were a significant amount of mites on them.

I didn't completely think this through because I'm going to hit the point at which I normally put Apivar on, but I guess I could just do that later than I normally do. OR (big OR, here) - I could test and decide not to do the Apivar at all if the results are promising. _shrug_ I won't complain of it ends up looking viable.


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## crofter

I have other things going on (sacbrood) that could skew results this summer but extended release OA looks promising. A couple of years ago I put some on that were very juicy and I did get a bit of scary bearding but it was hot day too. I reduced area of towel and was OK. Just my feeling that the degree of wetness may be more important that the precise ratios. I would err on the dry side for starters. Swedish sponges work good but they are not all the same texture; some go to pieces. They are easier to take off and put back on when pulling frames. Card stock may be a sturdier and cheaper carrier.

How much I need to do to keep mites down depends a lot on what my neighbors are doing. I have heard that the two closest ones lost 100% of their bees over winter and may not have ANY this summer. Past experience is the contact method will keep summer levels down but if your bees are robbing out mite bombs, they definitely need something stiffer. You definitely should not assume effectiveness (goes without saying, no matter what you use.) Dont get caught by a surprise too late in the season for plan B to work.


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## GregB

For now - not a fan (of the slow release OA).


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## johno

I did some of the glis/OA stuff on craft paper and put them on the top bars of 6 by 3 high mediums about 5 years ago and I found that different hives treated the kraft paper differently. Some hives started breaking it up and removing it others just propolized on top of it and others just ignored it which I am sure would alter the results of its efficacy. As I was treating all my other hives with OAV after the 6th treatment 3 weeks later I gave those 6 hives I was testing a shot of OAV and when I saw how many mites fell I decided to give that up. Perhaps if one was to start this early in spring when the mite load is low it could hold down the mites growth however I would still be inclined to give them a shot of OAV in mid summer to make sure that mites have not got the upper hand.


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## squarepeg

breaking it up and removing it would impart some of the oa onto the mandibles and feet, but not as much as if they just left it in place and kept walking it all over the inside of the hive.

perhaps your experience had to do with the kraft paper?

this is actually a mite treatment i would consider using my (tf) self.

most of the time my bees get a month or two brood break during our summer dearth, during which time all varroa goes phoretic. my bees are also agressive allogroomers and are able to clear most of the mites before their fall brood up.

during their longer winter brood break, (yes i have a real winter here on my northeast alabama ridgetop), they are able to clear close to 100% of the mites with some exceptions, but in most cases the colonies come out of winter with essentially no mites.

the few that don't comply with that mode of operation usually succumb to winter. winter losses (except for efb 2019) average less than 20%. dead out resources are spread around the apiary where needed.

now that i have time i'll be doing mite checks and requeening those few that didn't get the job done as far being self treating for mites. before requeening a colony due a high mite count, i would apply this extended release oa as a clean up before introducing the new queen.


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## johno

Square what I took away from the test I did was that the colonies behavior with dealing with the soaked cardboard could impact the results, with the six colonies I tested there were three different behavior patterns and the spread of the mixture might not be the same with all colonies and therefore do not just leave them and trust the treatment , verify. This could also perhaps explain why the tests carried out in Georgia were not a success. When I first started my treatments I used to use FA flashpads but found that the results from the flashpads were all over the place as the temperature at the time and the actual size of the cluster seem to influence efficacy, and so I went on to OAV where I have been for the last 9 or 10 years. I know it is a PITA but it drops mites whenever it is used.


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## squarepeg

many thanks johno for your extended explanation. if i end up employing extended release oa myself, i'll use whatever randy has determined is best after all his tinkering and field trials.

i don't argue the effectiveness, cost benefit, and ease of use with vaporizing. for me it's mostly an issue of hazmat.


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## johno

No problem Square, you must stay in your comfort zone. For me , now I have worked with such nasty stuff for quite a while and the experts would have said I should have been dead ages ago. However heading on to 79 now and medicare is making a fortune out of me.


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## Amibusiness

I am curious, johno, what to you use for PPE when vaping? How does that compare to what people use for dribble or extended release (I assume the last 2 are similar in exposure and PPE). I know the recommendations are to go crazy and maybe even buy a coffin before using such "nasty" stuff. I have never been burned by wood bleach and I believe I never used gloves or goggles or mask. I do remember tasting a sour taste at lunch sometimes that would remind me to go wash my hands. I may not be old enough for the kidney stones to have formed yet but I do not attribute any of my ailments to oa and do not think it is such nasty stuff.


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## johno

Ami, I do have an organic acid respirator but I have rarely used it,During the testing I did with OAV I tried to get a smell of FA in a plume of OAV to see if there was any possibility of the OA breaking down at the temperatures we are vaporizing it at. While doing that I wore a 3M N95 particulte mask, not only did I not smell any FA I did not smell the OAV either. During the test I did with OAV I discovered that the gasseous phase of OA did not move far from the end of the nozzle and condensed into tiny OA crytals so thought no more about those organic acid masks. I had some AZ hives enclosed in a porch and when treating those I wore the 3M mask and also when I did any treatmens of an observation hive in my study as there is no way you can avoid the vapor when in an inclosed space. I also do not wear gloves when treating as it makes it so much more difficult to work with the caps with gloves on. I have found that dry OA is very forgiving but add moisture and you could have problems hense protect your eyes. I have also done a lot of rough water sea swimming and have had to learn to control my breathing which also helps if you happen to get a little vapor come your way. But the actual treatment are so easy and the only problem I have with that at this time of the year is the heat and the humidity. All I wear is a white T shirt and white scrubs with elstic at the leg bottoms so that bees can't crawl up my legs, of course I am treating from behind the hives and my entrances are reduced to minimum to prevent robbing.


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## Knoxville1

Here is a pdf file made by a keeper named Otto in New Zealand. It has details on extended release oxalic acid. The beekeepers in New Zealand are taking paper drywall tape and sewing it together three layers thick. I am in my second year using them and haven't had a mite count over three yet. I'm using them on four hives this year.


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## Knoxville1

Here is what they look like.


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## Gray Goose

are they able to chew and remove them or do you need to remove them later + 60 days ?

GG


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## johno

Knoxville1, that looks like the original formulation that came out of Argentina about 4 or 5 years ago, the little trial I did was based on that. Then you just recently had trials by Jennifer Berry with Bob Binnies bees and they were not impressed with the outcome. To be fair when I looked at their graphs the Luan Cap stuff was not far behind Apivar in mite counts at the end. There is no doubt that this stuff will kill mites but I believe it will be dependant on the degree of infestation.


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## Knoxville1

Some hives will try to chew and remove them. ( I believe it is good that they handle, chew and transport the pieces, just replace them) If they mess with them, they need to be replaced. I believe they were using them for 49 day cycles in N.Z., but then Randy Oliver is indicating longer cycles. Some people are leaving them in from early spring til early winter. Some are leaving them in continuously year round. From what I've read, the bees building up a resistance is supposed to be a non-issue.


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## Knoxville1

Johno, From what I've read, the staples, perhaps if used 'properly' will help keep a low mite count. If the mite count goes high then be prepared to use your back-up plan. My observation is that there are some that treat, but don't do counts. Then they never know if their treatments are effective or not.


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## jtgoral

Knoxville1 said:


> Some hives will try to chew and remove them. ( I believe it is good that they handle, chew and transport the pieces, just replace them) If they mess with them, they need to be replaced. I believe they were using them for 49 day cycles in N.Z., but then Randy Oliver is indicating longer cycles. Some people are leaving them in from early spring til early winter. Some are leaving them in continuously year round. From what I've read, the bees building up a resistance is supposed to be a non-issue.


*Pasieka Kamionek* in Warsaw (one can search YouTube for links or see post #4) does OAE stripes for over 4 years and claims it works well. I used that guy's recipe and method to apply last year and all my 13 hives I had in my backyard survived winter in a a very good condition. To be fair I had OAV every month during the season before OAE and after.


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## johno

Knoxville1, I have a problem doing mite counts in my area, I have lost more colonies doing mite counts than I have from mites. I generally have no more than 8 weeks of nectar flow in the early spring and by mid june the dearth begins until next spring. By July taking bee samples in a 20 hive yard becomes hazardous as you need to get your sample from open brood and by the second sample that open hive can be robbed and overwhelmed and once they start there is no stopping them. So I sample on the sticky of some of my colonies after an OAV treatment.


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## jwcarlson

Knoxville1 said:


> From what I've read, the bees building up a resistance is supposed to be a non-issue.


I struggle when I read these types of comments. I think it's important to understand that mites may not develop resistance to the killing action of the OA (if "we" are even 100% sure what that is). But I think it's equally important to understand that application method may (or may not) select for mites exhibiting different behaviors. Now, I'm not a biologist or a varroa mite expert, so take this with a grain of salt. But with certain types of OA application, we might be selecting for mites that need less phoretic period of... well... feasting. Or mites that enter brood cells a little earlier because we're nuking all of the 'average' mites with our treatment schedules. Or mites that are more likely to hang out on less affected bees (foragers, for instance) or mites more likely to be on bees who are drifting. The same selection might be happening with dribble application, but people are mostly doing that when broodless, so it might be more-or-less a non-issue. With the extended release maybe there is less of a concern, but it might be a little 'dangerous' for us to just assume that OA cannot result in resistant mites. We might just be getting mites that are better at dodging the treatments, though not really "resistant". Just keep in mind that every time you're doing any OA with brood in the hive, you're selecting for the mites are are already in the brood and you're selecting for whatever behaviors every mite that you don't kill with each treatment. And, in my opinion, the continued movement from periodic treatments with OA to getting more-and-more suggesting something constant kind of bears out that narrative. 

I've only been at this bee thing for eight years, but when I first started it was like three weekly OA treatments. Then it was four treatments five days apart each. Then five treatments five days apart or treatments every five days until you see the kill drop off to near-nothing. Randy Oliver has talked about people doing it every other day until the mite drop is basically zero. And the further evolution is the OAE we're talking about here. Of course part of this is just humans learning how to use OA to combat varroa and improved vaporization methods, but OA isn't especially new to the scene, though some of the application methods might be. 

Here, I repeat the disclaimer that I'm not a biologist. Also, I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. However I am an engineer. For what all of that's worth.


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## crofter

JWC; What then is your suggestion? Randy Oliver has considerably altered his original reticence about using oxalic acid


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## jtgoral

jwcarlson said:


> I struggle when I read these types of comments. I think it's important to understand that mites may not develop resistance to the killing action of the OA (if "we" are even 100% sure what that is). But I think it's equally important to understand that application method may (or may not) select for mites exhibiting different behaviors. Now, I'm not a biologist or a varroa mite expert, so take this with a grain of salt. But with certain types of OA application, we might be selecting for mites that need less phoretic period of... well... feasting. Or mites that enter brood cells a little earlier because we're nuking all of the 'average' mites with our treatment schedules. Or mites that are more likely to hang out on less affected bees (foragers, for instance) or mites more likely to be on bees who are drifting. The same selection might be happening with dribble application, but people are mostly doing that when broodless, so it might be more-or-less a non-issue. With the extended release maybe there is less of a concern, but it might be a little 'dangerous' for us to just assume that OA cannot result in resistant mites. We might just be getting mites that are better at dodging the treatments, though not really "resistant". Just keep in mind that every time you're doing any OA with brood in the hive, you're selecting for the mites are are already in the brood and you're selecting for whatever behaviors every mite that you don't kill with each treatment. And, in my opinion, the continued movement from periodic treatments with OA to getting more-and-more suggesting something constant kind of bears out that narrative.
> 
> I've only been at this bee thing for eight years, but when I first started it was like three weekly OA treatments. Then it was four treatments five days apart each. Then five treatments five days apart or treatments every five days until you see the kill drop off to near-nothing. Randy Oliver has talked about people doing it every other day until the mite drop is basically zero. And the further evolution is the OAE we're talking about here. Of course part of this is just humans learning how to use OA to combat varroa and improved vaporization methods, but OA isn't especially new to the scene, though some of the application methods might be.
> 
> Here, I repeat the disclaimer that I'm not a biologist. Also, I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. However I am an engineer. For what all of that's worth.


I see no problem with changing ways I do things when I learn on my or, preferred, someone else mistakes or successes. As long as it is based on knowledge not on beliefs


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## johno

When I first started treating with OAV some 8 or 9 years ago I also followed te old advice of 3 treatments 7 days apart until I found that this did not work well. Sure every time it is used mites fall bot the 3 treatments I believe was just theory based. Since that first year I have been using about 4 grams per dose and have been doing treatments of six treatments twice a week for 3 weeks, once in mid summer and again in early fall plus two or 3 single treatments in November and December. You cannot refute the fact that when you treat mites die so just carry on treating until no more mites fall. These mite things are strange creatures and with them strange things happen that sort of defy logic and perhaps they can change their behavior and become like those tropapalypse( don't know if I spelled that right) and live only in the cells but even so they have to come out to move into a new cell with larvae in it who knows. But at this point unless we can train the western bees larvae to die when they get bitten by a mite we have to use what we have.


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## jwcarlson

crofter said:


> JWC; What then is your suggestion? Randy Oliver has considerably altered his original reticence about using oxalic acid


Frank, to be clear, I am using OA and have been. Including this extended version. 
My suggestion would be same as any other, I guess. To mix it up. 
I don't think it's necessarily an issue, just that the attitude of "they can't become resistant" is not necessarily a great attitude. 
Haven't mites gotten significantly more fatal at lower levels as well? I remember the state bee inspector from... Maine, I think talking about the infection rates of Hackenburg's bees when the mites really got going and they were way way higher than what we consider even remotely OK now. 

I didn't mean for my post up above to be mean or whatever, it's just a thing I think a lot of us don't necessarily take seriously enough. Myself included, honestly.


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## crofter

I thought the increased level of treatment was to maintain a lower threshold of mites than previously deemed adequate. Many of these vectored diseases have been constantly coming up with new variants and developing resistance to some treatments; they have upped the ante!

My reasoning (perhaps rationalization) is that the meaner mite control now required is more because of this greater prevalence and virility of the background bacterial and viral disease, and perhaps is not due to any development of resistance to the OA.

That the background disease level has increased is pretty much a given: That mites have or will develop resistance to OA is still at the level of conjecture. The development of resistance in many circumstances in the past has been well documented, but it is not a future certainty when applied to any individual compound.


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