# Broood nest too small; new small cell bees in mediums fickle on plastic HELP :)



## gomarciab (Aug 7, 2013)

Dear Bee Keeps

I started a new colony this spring of natural small cell package bees. They as many first year bees are doing well. I started the colony on small cell plastic frames, 10 Frame medium Langstroth. Once they were strong I placed a medium on top and moved two frames up. hey had brrood in both boxes but have now moved the queen back down and have pulled comb in top box foundationless frames and it is chocked full of honey. There is a foundationless medium on top they are just moving into no comb pulled yet. Today I inspected the bottom medium and they never pulled out more comb for brood in the original medium box. My theory is that they preferred to pull comb on the foundationless frames instead of using the plastic down below. Now I feel the brood is too small. Any suggestions as to what to do?

They do have a queen she is laying but only in a very small area in the bottom box. Population in this colony is fine-good and eggs were seen today.

Best
Marcy


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Extract a frame or two honey, and move the empty drawn frames down to where you want brood. My supposition is the FL honey frames will be about 5.2 mm, or perhaps larger.

Getting bees to draw comb of any kind in the fall (in my region) is difficult. You can feed light syrup until the fall flow comes in.

If you don't think there is enough brood, feed high protein sub to kick-start brood. Or move the bees to a high quality pollen source. 

Rewax the plastic with a bar of warmed beeswax. In my hives plastic is drawn beautifully in the flow during spring, but in other seasons they build perpendicular burr comb off the plastic. 

Frames with wax foundation get drawn when checkerboardeded into brood, even during the lulls. Plastic and Foundationless not-so-much.

The bees are naturally reducing brood rearing, as the season moves into Autumn. The shrinkage and honey backfilling you are noting is entirely natural.

I live with Bananas in the front yard, and my brood will go to 3 frames or less in November. This is the yearly cycle. 

Is the brood healthy -- shot holes in the brood are a strong indication that parasites have built up?

As treatment-free breeders on this forum has noted, many TF lineages are dinky and not very productive. They avoid mites by being sub-standard in the commercial sense. Perhaps your genetics are forcing a little, dinky, not very vigorous summer colony.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Did you have feed on the hive the whole time? This is usually a must. I had a swarm move into some stacked boxes I had and I put them on a deep of plastic SC foundation. I've had a jar of feed on that hive all summer until just 10 days ago. I now have two deeps of drawn comb. I also kept moving the frames around. Full comb frames to the outside, empty ones to the center.


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## gomarciab (Aug 7, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> Extract a frame or two honey, and move the empty drawn frames down to where you want brood. My supposition is the FL honey frames will be about 5.2 mm, or perhaps larger.
> 
> Getting bees to draw comb of any kind in the fall (in my region) is difficult. You can feed light syrup until the fall flow comes in.
> 
> ...


Hello JW

...and thank you for your response. Brood looks fine and yes I think I need to try to build them up if I can before cold weather. I do have some small cell wax foundation which I think I might checkerboard in there. This hopefully will be a good compromise late in this season. I would also like to feed and they all do have robbing screens so I may start this today. My question is what concentration of sugar to water to use at this time of year in Southern Maine. They are bringing in nectar at this time, and he golden rod has begun here on the coast. I generally do not feed my bees syrup if I can avoid this in the fall but all colonies are light this year. 

If there are any Maine bee keeps reading this that would like to make a recommendation on ratio for syrup I would love to hear from you. I thought to go light as this might stimulate brood rearing and switch to heavier later as we move toward Fall.

Thank you for mentioning the TF lineage. I have regressed my bees over the years with good success, all one lineage. This particular colony are purchased small cell TF bees. I really know nothing about them as this is the one colony and the first season. I am concerned about the small brood as we are in Maine. This colony is only 2 mediums at this time. One is chocked full of honey.

As always all advise appreciated!!!!!

Thank you
Marcy


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## gomarciab (Aug 7, 2013)

Hi Barry

Thank you for your input. These were packaged bees installed mid May. I fed them syrup till they did not wish to take more of it. Sounds like your swarm has done well. These took a while to get started as they were package bees, had to reorganize and had no wax that they brought with them. I think their biggest dilemma is the same as mine, ie just too short a season here in Maine. 

Best
Marcy


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

A few things i'm not understanding:

1. If you didn't add the second box until the first box was "strong", what does 'strong' mean? You now seem to be concerned that the _same_ box hasn't had more comb drawn? How much was drawn before you added the second box?

2. If you want them to be drawing comb in the bottom box, why do you have them pulling comb in the third box up at the same time?


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## gomarciab (Aug 7, 2013)

deknow said:


> A few things i'm not understanding:
> 
> 1. If you didn't add the second box until the first box was "strong", what does 'strong' mean? You now seem to be concerned that the _same_ box hasn't had more comb drawn? How much was drawn before you added the second box?
> 
> 2. If you want them to be drawing comb in the bottom box, why do you have them pulling comb in the third box up at the same time?


Hello deknow,

Strong means... box was about full when I put the second box on which was some time ago as in June. So two things I think occurred.. one they never pulled out the rest of the frames and two they have slowed the queen down. I like to have a stronger colony going into these Maine winters. 

They are not pulling comb in a third box.. I did put it on when the second box was filled. They needed somewhere else to go.

How would you handle this situation. .I see you are in Mass. and I think last year at least your winter was worse *wink*

All advice appreciated.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Sounds like you have other hives. Move drawn comb over from the stronger comb. Move capped brood over. Let the strongest hive pull the comb.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

gomarciab said:


> If there are any Maine bee keeps reading this that would like to make a recommendation on ratio for syrup I would love to hear from you. I thought to go light as this might stimulate brood rearing and switch to heavier later as we move toward Fall.


1:1 for now, 2:1 once frost comes your way (Mid-September for me)


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## gomarciab (Aug 7, 2013)

Andrew Dewey said:


> 1:1 for now, 2:1 once frost comes your way (Mid-September for me)



Thank you Andrew...

I was headed in this direction but as it has been years since I fed Syrup it is really nice t have the confirmation.

Best Marcy

PS just not a good honey year for me. Bees are ok but all colonies seem to be smaller than the last few years.


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