# bees carrying pupae or larva



## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)

I was watching my newly hived cutout bees. I checked them today queen is still there and filling up the cells with sugar water. I was tilling in the garden watching out of the corner of my eye and saw some bees leave with larva or pupae time to time. What does this mean? Are they leaving or cleaning? I also had a small fire going about 30 feet from the hives would the smoke cause them to leave. I peeked in and they are still munching awway on the pollen patties.


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## akaneo (Jul 12, 2008)

More than likely the larva was damaged in the cut out process and they are just cleaning house, caring them away from the hive.

Richard


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## Ted n Ms (Apr 25, 2008)

They wiil clean out any dead or damage brood. sounds like a good hive of bees.


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## hankdog1 (May 17, 2008)

i have to agree with everyone else on this one seems like it's just housekeeping.


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## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)

Thanks guys.
I showed my G/F the hive and shes pregnant and walked over and she stood 5 feet away and said WOW they smell dead! i only have 2 frames of come i carried over from the cutout and the comb was still pretty white to tan. I do know there was some dead larva though. I do hope they are just cleaning up. They are sucking down the sugar water and found half of one side of the comb was filled with what looked like honey but was most likely sugar water. They are really going to town on this stuff. Saw the queen and she was just running around with her head cut off just busy busy. So the smell shes got this bionic nose now that shes pregnant and can really smell stuff. I couldnt smell a thing but i been in chemicals all my life so my sense of smell is a little off unless my nose is full of it. So hopefully its nothing bad. I did see some bees that were head first and there probiscus was sticking out on a few cells. what does that mean?


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

*Stink*

If the "bees" you saw with thier proboscus sticking out were dead and darkened larvae in the cells with the proboscis sticking up, you are in deep trouble. That is a dead giveaway of American foul brood. Other symtoms you mention support that call.

I don't have any experience with the disease, and am not in any position to advise, but I strongly recommend that you do not let that colony die and get robbed out. You do not need AFB distributed in your area.

Sorry about the bad news input.

Walt


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## Brenda (Nov 23, 2006)

You should get hold your local bee inspector. His email address is [email protected] 
You can also contact someone from St Clair County Beekeepers Association - http://www.stclairbees.com/


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

it would seem to me clinton that you could have a number of things happening here...

removing dead bee can be signs of disease (as would be the smell) but it could also suggest a previous bout of starvation or chilled brood. the evidence you presented is insufficient for me to point in one direction or the other. when you did the cut out did they have stores? after the cut out did they have sufficient numbers to cover the brood? 

another explanation for removal would be akaneo explanation. add to this hygenic behavior which would be akaneo explantion reinforced by genetics of this particular group of bees.

finally... if the bees are taking syrup and placing it around the brood nest and if the queen is laying down eggs I would take a wait and see attitude making certain in the interval to keep a DRIBBLE of feed on the bees until they have established themselves (about a 30 day minimum period of time).

and good luck...


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## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)

That was just looking at the hive yesterday once for about 10 min. im new and hope its just dead brood they are cleaning out. I had to cut out a section of comb that had old brood in it before moving them to the hive when I did the cutout. I only saw one with the probiscus out. Ill take a picture as soon as im able to get back out there. They do seem healthy and are eagerly eating up sugar water and putting it in the brood comb that i removed from the hive. When i removed them from the cutout they were healthy and quite a few bees. Im not going the way of AFB just yet as it could have been the bees dying from the tree falling over. There were NO honey stores or pollen in any of the comb when i removed them from the tree and I did see an occasion bee but sticking out of the comb. They are going mad crazy eating. I also do have many dead bees from smashing and from transport. Id say there are 100 or so dead bees in there.


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## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)

Also, I took that previous comb that had brood in it they all were white and looked good. Not soggy and ropy and did not see any scale on the comb. Its been 2 days since i brought them home and so far have almost 2 quarts of sugar water gone. Ill take another peek monday night if the weather is good after im home from work. Ill have pictures then too. Ya im not in now way wanting AFB!


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## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)




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## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)




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## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)




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## Jorn Johanesson (Mar 30, 2005)

The amount of larvae to the amount of bees is in wrong configuration. A lot of larvae might die and start to rotten, because the bees cannot take care of them. Sorry. I would remove some off the not covered combs.

Best regards Jorn


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## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)

what do you mean? Should i remove comb that does not have larva in it or remove comb with larva in it?


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

Jorn is right.

I have had this problem too. I usually try to save only a little bit of brood from a cut out. I just save enough to anchor them to the hive. Usually one good frame of young brood.

By the time it starts to stink you are in trouble. It is time for strong measures to save them. Usually if they can't clean up it is because there are not enough bees, or way too much dead brood.

1. Make sure you have a queen. If not, get one or combine bees with another hive.

2. Get rid of all stinky comb.

3. If you can take a frame from another hive, do it. I would try to select one that is mostly capped brood, with a little bit of open brood on it.

4. Feed heavily.

If you have a queen and enough bees you can save them. Have fun.


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## Jorn Johanesson (Mar 30, 2005)

ClintonTull said:


> what do you mean? Should i remove comb that does not have larva in it or remove comb with larva in it?


Troy gave you the answer. It is the larvae part you should adjust. If the bees cannot cover it the larvae will 'get a cold' and die and start to root. If there are not enough bees they cannot manage to clean out too. Remember they have to take care of the queen and new larvae. Repair damage to the combs and so on. It is like you thrown out from your home and just being thrown into a new spot with everything not in order that you like. Sorry that it not went out like you had hoped. But I must admit that you did a very good first cutout job, and it seems to me to be a very good and positive lesson. I don’t dare to tell you about my first bees when I was totally new to beekeeping. 

have a nice day and best regards to your all. Jorn


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## Poptart (Jun 9, 2008)

*Caution!!!!*

It is hard to tell from pics but what I think I see is sunken cell caps and perferated caps. This is sign of possible American Foul brood! Take off a few of the caps that are sunken or perferated and look at the larvae. You will find flattened out larvae if it is foul brood. You may not see scale in the cells if the hive has very :srecently been infected. Use a stick or something to stir up cell contents and see if it is stringy when pulled out !


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

*American foul brood*

I have used the ugly words above deliberately to snag any future search for info on that subject. Of course I don't know it is, but I'm not sure it isn't. In my first post on this thread my lack of experience with brood disease was noted, but I have some experience with reading comb for what it is trying to tell me. I suspect you folks are playing with fire when you might be better advised to apply the torch deliberately. The pictures push me to believe it might be a case of AFB. 

Let's review the indications provided in the literature. Stink, sunken and/or perforated brood cappings, scale, and the clincher proboscis thing in a scale area. Dead larvae go through a ropey stage in decay an dry to dark scale in the bottom of open cells.

A few weeks ago a neiboring beek told me that last year AFB showed up in several of his outyards - after a lifetime of not seeing it in his colonies. Since he had been an inspecter years ago and should know it when he saw it, asked if he would show me. The colony we opened had a small cluster in the feed box shallow the top and zero stores. An adequate looking Q and no brood in the cluster. That box was set off to access the basic brood chamber deep. He lifted out frame, and pointed to one of several cappings that had a small hole in it and said that was foul brood. The deep frame was whole frame of capped brood that had been reared in the fall and was now blackened with age and no brood had emerged. Nor had a single cell been opened to remove the dead pupae. This tidbit is emphasized here to support the following comb evaluation.

First a scenario where the pieces fall into place. All brood reared while the colony was feeding on contaminated honey was diseased and will not emerge as adults. Nor will the cells be uncapped and cleaned. When the colony ran out of stored,contaminated honey, and were living hand-to-mouth on incoming nectar, the disease cleared up and the colony was able to rear healthy brood. The pictures support this scenario.

To the pictures:
We'll only #1 in the revised format. Others show the same thing to variable degree. You did notice the color change between the two patches of capped brood?

Starting upper left, Clinton reported white, healthy brood. In the photo its difficult for me to make out healthy brood. Some of the white blobs in cell bottoms appear to be reflections off the three-sided facet surfaces, but I'll assume the solid white blobs are larvae/royal jelly. Healthy brood! 
Note that the comb is pictured upside down from its original orientation - not a problem for the bees.

The center portion of the photo shows what I believe to be healthy capped brood that will emerge as mature bees. 

The band of open cells between there and the far right center imply that healthy bees emerged from that band. Then we run aground.

The far right center capped brood, with the darker cappings, I believe to be dead and the source of the stink. Actually, Clinton did a very good job of the transfer and damaged very little brood in the process. With a faulty smeller, how was he to know that he transferred a lot of dead brood? My interpretation of this picture is that the colony was expanding right to left and about the time that they reached the far right side of the photo, they ran out of stored, contaminated honey. After that the situation improved.

Not this photo, but others show other symptoms noted up front in this posting. Perforated cappings and sunken (concave) cappings abound. Ignoring the single proboscis (one sample does not make an air tight case) I count three out of five symptoms available. Do you want to fight the odds, and persist?


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## Jorn Johanesson (Mar 30, 2005)

*American foul brood*

I second that! As a former bee inspector I should have mentioned this too. But I did it in a personal e-mail to Clinton.

With this little amount of bees, the best will be to kill it off and then clean the hive with bleak and burn all frames used including wax.

We do it this way. Put the bees in a new clean hive, preferably in a card box, with only wax leaders. Do not feed. If the hive can be cleaned 100% then clean it with bleak. All the frames from hive are burned together with storage frames that have been used for brood. All other wax have to be melted down and honey only to be sold as bakers honey.

After three days when the bees have used up the honey in stomach, they are transferred back to the original hive on foundation, and now feed heavily. The temporary hive with contents is burned. Small families are combined with other families. If there are no families to combine with the small families are killed off, because they likely will not survey the treatment. When new brood is visible a new inspection is done.

AFB in Denmark must bee reported (Danish law) and bees cannot be moved before the treatment has been done or the bees declared free for AFB.
By the way AFB spores are violent even after 70 years. (Found in 70 years old honey).


Best regards Jorn


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/Disorders/chilled_brood.htm

Before you get all crazy and start torching things, keep this in mind. In this case, there is most likely chilled brood going on. Chilled brood looks similar to AFB. And dead brood will rot, smelling...well, dead! It looks like a small hive and it may take them a bit before getting everything cleaned back up.

Sure, it is possible that there is AFB in there, but considering this is a cutout in a fairly cold part of spring, and the extreme stresses that the bees have been going through with the cutout, chilled brood would be expected. And a stressed hive will chew out pupae, dead or alive, they sometimes do unexpected things. If your pics are more recent, I also note that either you didn't get the queen or she has suspended laying for a bit as there is no open brood.

I also occasionally find in hives that in the fall not all of the last of the bees will have hatched out before the hard freezes set in and the bees will abandon a small patch in favor of moving up into the parts of the hive with more honey. In this case there may be perforated cappings but the bees are all mid to late pupae stage.

Rick


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

*Afb*

Poptart:
Very good input! While I was fumbling with my keyboard, it was posted and I did not see it.

Jorn:
Thanks for the second. I was out on a limb. Lonely out there.

Have visited your country several times. Beutiful. And it helps a dumb American when everybody speaks English.

Clinton: 
In answer to your original question, the bees were carrying off the "mummies" of yet another brood disorder that I am unfamiar with. But you already knew that.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*No*

No AFB indications. If you know what it looks like that is.


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## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)

Well, I heeded everyones advise except to burn. I am very patient. I called Chuck fugate my local bee inspector. Hes going to come out and look at it. I onpened up the hive tonight I have pics coming on here in just a few too. I removed comb they were not even touching. they only used 1 so as someone mentioned i need to remove what they cant cover. The chilled brood syndrome is exactly what i was thinking as we had a 5-6 day week where it was 70 and hit 80 degress then the next week it dropped down in the high 20's! also these look to be italians and having no food and so small of a colony they seemed to be building back up then the freeze came up. I removed the 2 combs and left in the one they were covering and they almost have it 90% filled with sugar water. I fixed it up and supported the comb and added in the 2 more plastic frames. Found the queen and moved her onto the comb. They are bringing in their own pollen too as today we hit in the 65's i think. They drank half a quart of sugar water and are building some comb on the new frames. I now have just one frame of 3/4 full of comb and they are expanding and look good to me but im a newbeek.... 

Let me know what species(i think italians) and what your evaluation is possibly.


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## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)

more pics


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## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)




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## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)

went out to check on hive and 2 feet from hive were 3 moths sitting on the siding of my building. they were about 1" long wing span about 1.5 inches wide and tan. What do wax moths look like? I have also really reduced the entrance to .5 inches now too as advise from local beekeeper to reduce robbing if they were to small of a colony.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Another*

Hopeless case, looks like to me. And I don't mean the bees either!


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Incubate*

For y'all that are really in to it you can incubate sealed brood and they will hatch out & cluster. If they haven't already been frozen or toasted.
A pound or two of fuzz heads might be worth something.


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## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)

Tom G. Laury said:


> Hopeless case, looks like to me. And I don't mean the bees either!


Ok. Tom. was that a shot at me or some advise as to the outlook of this hive?


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Back atcha*

Just a slap on the back not a shot, kind of a running joke around here in regards to the Bee Fever. If I were you set up a chaise lounge in the back and watch for more moth they fly at night. Haha just teasing really!


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

Tom G. Laury said:


> Hopeless case, looks like to me. And I don't mean the bees either!




I have been reading his post Tom. I have to agree. My diagnosis is that there is nothing we can do for him now. It's to late.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

*Follow up*

Brood chilling sounds like a good answer. From the appearance of the comb, (short from top to bottom) the cavity was more horizontal than vertical. That makes for a fairly inefficient heat retention layout, and pictures of the log show fairly thin walls for insulation.

The flag was raised on the possibility of afb based on the mention of the proboscis thing (originally plural and later revised singular). Literature pictures imply that the proboscis structure is developed late in the larval stage and remains intact through the decay meltdown and is prominent in the dried scale. Does that mean that maturing larvae that dies from other causes and is allowed to decay will exibit that symptom?

I'm always interested in filling in the voids in what I think I know. To that end, I would appreciate one of you who has seen brood loss from other causes address the following questions.

The literature implys that scale proposcis, sunken cappings, perforated cappings are unique to foul brood. At least, the combination of those indications leaves little doubt. Is that not true? I'm not a fan of old literature concepts handed down from the box hive days, and spend a lot of time trying beat back some of that misinformation.

Thanks, Walt


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## Brenda (Nov 23, 2006)

Good deal. I'd be interested in what Mr. Fugate tells you. You're lucky to have an inspector and a bee club close to you.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

*Continuation*

Me again. In too big a hurry to get to bed, neglected to ask the second question. I'ts the same question from a different direction. For those of you who are sure that afb is not involved, What would it take to suspect afb if there were no open brood? My friend, Don, made the call on a few pinholes on a few cells on a whole frame of abandoned brood. Is that valid?

Thanks, Walt


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## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)

Here are pictures of Moths i found near hive and one on the sugar feeder.
Are these wax moths?


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## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)

Tom G. Laury said:


> Hopeless case, looks like to me. And I don't mean the bees either!


Ok.
Hopeless case huh? Then what are these hanging around the hive?

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~reute001/images/disease/F14-wax-moth-extract.jpg 
Look like wax moths to me.


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## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)

Tom G. Laury said:


> Just a slap on the back not a shot, kind of a running joke around here in regards to the Bee Fever. If I were you set up a chaise lounge in the back and watch for more moth they fly at night. Haha just teasing really!



I got out the chase lounge and above is what i found.


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

I'm pretty sure that those aren't wax moths. I don't know what kind they are, but I find a lot of them attracted to lights at night.


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## walking bird (Mar 2, 2008)

those aren't wax moths


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## Jorn Johanesson (Mar 30, 2005)

They are not wax moths. In Denmark we call those Night Moths. There is of course a bunch of different ones but they flight at night. You generally don't have to be worried as long as you take care of old wax (melting down). The bees will normally handle the wax moth larvae in the hive.

Try to google for Wax Moth and Night Moths and use the picture facility.

best regards Jorn


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## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)

Today saw 2 or 3 bees carrying out dead pupa and larva. So they are doing some good work.


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## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)

I went outside today checked the hive. they have filled up 1/3 the rest of the comb to completion and are starting on the pierco black plastic frames i bought. It looks patchy and odd ball sort of, but they are building comb.

THE BEST PART IS THAT I SAW EGGS!
WOW tiny lil suckers if i do say so myself. All the new comb had eggs. queen has every open cell opened and all the comb looks to be cleaned up i did see some that were still capped so will wait to see what happens with those.

Im so happy
Just gonna sit back watch and see what happens opcorn:


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## pilothawk (Apr 16, 2009)

What did the inspector have to say?


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## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)

Havent heard, and not sure. but i saw that my gate was closed fully the other day and i dont do that usually. So he may have already stopped in. Im calling him today @ noon.


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## ClintonTull (Dec 7, 2008)

Well another cutout is done and in the back yard. Thank you Jesus! 

http://tulltraditions.com/photos/index.php?cat=31 is where you can see all my pics of all my beekeeping activities!


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