# My experiment with foundationless



## JStinson (Mar 30, 2013)

Last Saturday, I decided to test the claim that bees will draw out foundationless frames faster than foundation frames. I really didn't know what I was doing, so I just heated some wax and painted two coats on the top bar of two plain old medium frames. 

Here are the four day results:

















Both of these are of the same frame. The other frame is being drawn out very nicely as well...not quite like this, but still strong. 

These bees were a swarm I got from a town over. They were hived 2 weeks ago and are beasts.

Even caught a glimpse of her majesty:









I added another medium above them. In that I placed 5 foundationless frames with triangular strips for guides. Also, staggered between these I put 5 frames with foundation.

They also have a deep box on the bottom. They don't like it as much as the medium. I might remove it soon. I'm switching to all mediums anyway.


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## jmombo (Apr 24, 2013)

It sure is incredible. Thanks for the pics. I am going to give this a try, after I get some experience under my belt. I purchased frames with the rite-cell foundation from mannlake. I'm going to see how that goes, but am really liking the idea of comb honey and allowing the bees to go more natural. I just don't think I want to take on all of the wiring that seemed to be par for the course. But what you have here is wireless, right? No wires, no pins? Sorry, still learning


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## Lazer128 (Dec 15, 2012)

Awesome! I have to try this!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jmombo, if you go to mediums you don't have to wire them.


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## jpapper2 (Jun 23, 2012)

excellent i am definetly trying it this yr


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

In one of the pics it appears there is fishing line in an X pattern through the frame. I use fishing line with foundationless to provide extra support. It's not necessary, but helps if the comb is not attached well on the sides and bottom.



jmombo said:


> No wires, no pins?


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## jmombo (Apr 24, 2013)

@Acebird, I have gone with all mediums. Definitely going to give this a try! 
@Mike Gillmore, the fishing line does sound helpful... but I am, admittedly, just too darn lazy for the extra step! I suppose that the biggest risk comes into play during the dog days of summer when the wax is most soft.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Yes, in the heat of the summer you should use caution when handling the frames. If the comb is not attached well on the sides and bottom, and the summer heat has the wax softened up, don't hold the frame parallel to the ground when inspecting or the whole comb could break off and fall right out of the frame. I learned this the hard way. The frame must be held perpendicular to the ground at all times.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Which is why people use wire.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

I've really enjoyed my foundationless hives so far. Of course, I've been lucky and my bees have drawn beautiful comb.

I have long hives that are a bit more than the volume of 3 deeps. A nuc I installed a little over a month ago has expanded to 14 frames, though all aren't completely filled out yet. 

This frame was empty a couple weeks before this picture was taken:









Here's some comb several days old:









You can see the monolfilament fishing line I ran through the middle holes of the deep frame.


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## JStinson (Mar 30, 2013)

> In one of the pics it appears there is fishing line in an X pattern through the frame.


Quite a set of eyes you have, Mike. Yes, this frame is wired. Like I said, I really don't have any experience with this and don't know what to expect as far as extraction goes. My extractor has a heavy screen that the frames press up against when it's spinning. I'm hoping that will prevent blowout, I dunno. The other foundationless frames in this box are not wired. I'll just have to experiment to see. 

Acebird, you say you don't need wire for mediums. Do you mean that they will hold up during extraction or just inspection?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I don't think you have seen Acebirds famous extractor LOL! 

I'm sure he must just mean inspection. And even that would have to be careful.


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## JStinson (Mar 30, 2013)

Hmm, ok then. Guess I'll have to break out the fishing line from here on.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

I've posted this before, but sounds like many reading this thread are going to be new to foundationless and might benefit from information on my video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38SPvuWvVkc

Foundationless works you just have to follow the rules.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

JStinson said:


> Acebird, you say you don't need wire for mediums. Do you mean that they will hold up during extraction or just inspection?


Michael Bush has a very good page on foundationless frames:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm

He says you can extract them, as long as the comb isn't brand new and is attached on all 4 sides.


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## Sir_Gregory (Apr 19, 2013)

I was going to say what is posted above. Mr Bush's web site states a lot about foundationless comb... the good, bad and ugly. I say ugly because somtimes your bees suck at building comb w/o foundation help.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

You can extract mediums with no cross bracing BUT ya have to spin VERY slowly and ya will get some blowouts and if there not trashed ya can reposition the comb and the bees will fix the rest.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Which is why people use wire LOL 

Except for the time it takes during assembly, just wondering if there is one good reason to NOT use wire?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I find wires to be a major PITA in the extracting room and are like so many needles when trying to get them out of broken combs.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

Except for the time it takes during assembly, just wondering if there is one good reason to NOT use wire?[/QUOTE]

Well, in the past I wired thousands of frames. This was a task task that I never enjoyed.

So I have tried not wiring and no foundation for the last 3 years. It sure is a lot easier prep; however, I've found that the bees raise huge numbers of drones in foundationless frames. Also I need to keep working the new frames in between combs already built to prevent them from 'doing their own thing', shall we say.

For me the more frequent inspections weren't too bad due to the fact that I have also been doing battle against mites AND the [email protected]$!##d hive beetles.

FWIW, I think the index fingers have gotten bigger as I have often used them to smash the beetles that I have encountered on the top bars and hive cover.

Also, many combs get destroyed when I extract. Often the combs just fall out of the frames when turned sideways. The honey is there and needs to be harvested; however, many of them are not attached at the sides and bottom and therein lies the problem with extracting foundationless combs. 

I have also leanred that honey squeezed from the combs is superior in quality to extracted honey. I am quite sure that this is the case.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

JStinson said:


> Acebird, you say you don't need wire for mediums. Do you mean that they will hold up during extraction or just inspection?


I am sorry, I lost track of the topic. You would probably want support for fondationless comb. Ignore my comment.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> Which is why people use wire.


Actually, no.

Wire certainly does add some strength to seasoned comb, but the force of honey laden fresh comb vs. the small surface area of wire might assist a bit in handling...but against the forces of extraction? Think of how easy it is to cut through fresh comb with some thin wire or fishing line.

The primary reason people use wire (and the initial reason for its use) is to support the foundation from sagging under the heat/weight of the bees clustered on it. Once the comb is drawn there is good structural stiffness in the comb...but before drawing, not so much.

First came the extractor (before foundation), and no one seemed to feel the need to wire the frames. Only with the invention and adoption of foundation were wires found necessary.

For unwired, foundationless frames, don't "hold" the frame....rest the frame ears on your index fingers and gravity will keep things lined up safely.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

We routinely extract from unwired foundationless deeps. A tangential extractor probably helps support the comb.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

When I saw Sam Comfort in February, he told me about a beekeeper he is working with in Hawaii.

Her method of extracting foundationless combs is to only uncap one side first, spin ALL the honey out of that side, then uncap the other side.

The capped cells provide some stiffness to the comb (parallel to the midrib) while extracting out the first half of the honey. I haven't tried this yet, but I never would have thought of it on my own. Sometimes you have to think outside the cell.

deknow


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## dphillipm (Mar 27, 2013)

I'm putting bobby-pins threw the holes on the sides of the frames for reinforcement. If the doesn't work my next step is to add a horizontal bar across the center of my medium frames. This will take more time because I will need to groove the center of both side bars. Then I plan to use a spit bottom bar with a strip of cell-rite to make a centering strip for the top,and bottom of the center horizonal bar on these frames. Most of the time I find that my new ideals have already been thought of by someone before.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

dphillipm said:


> If the doesn't work my next step is to add a horizontal bar across the center of my medium frames.


If I wanted to reinforce comb, this is what I would do.



> This will take more time because I will need to groove the center of both side bars.


I think it would be less work (and more useful) to make a jig that positions a horizontal bar properly. You would also have pretty good centering if you used the wire holes in the side bars.



> Then I plan to use a spit bottom bar with a strip of cell-rite to make a centering strip for the top,and bottom of the center horizonal bar on these frames.


I've never put a comb guide on the bottom bar, but I know some do. As for the comb guide (centering strip), I find popsicle sticks work so well that I can't imagine why anyone would use plastic or wax foundation starter strips.

deknow


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Some of what's been said here reinforces my belief that monofilament is a better way to reinforce comb than wire, if you're not using foundation. Its larger diameter should provide more resistance to cutting during extraction. Also, it's a lot quicker and easier to install than wire. You can get it banjo tight with just your hands and a knot.

Old drawings of Langstroth frames show triangular comb guides on all 4 sides, and I imagine this makes for stronger combs, as the bees have much more attachment surface to work with. But I hope that isn't necessary. It doesn't seem to be, as far as straight comb is concerned, so far.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

If you have frames to extract that aren't attached well, just wrap several rubber bands around them, just like when you tie in comb from a cutout. The wider office style rubber bands will keep the comb in place while you spin it.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Except for the time it takes during assembly, just wondering if there is one good reason to NOT use wire?

I don't like wire in my cut comb, and I never know if I'm going to have that nice new soft white comb that is great comb honey and hard to extract. Also I like to be able to cut queen cells out without working around wires. I prefer not to use wire. Then, of course, it's work...


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## R Dewhurst (Dec 22, 2012)

plus a spool on 30# mono is a lot cheaper than wire as well. I think it works so well because the bees can't see it, unlike rubber bands which they will chew out. Went through 100 frames on one spool of mono this week. Plus, you never know what is in wire or any metal these days.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

deknow said:


> Actually, no.Wire certainly does add some strength to seasoned comb, but the force of honey laden fresh comb vs. the small surface area of wire might assist a bit in handling...but against the forces of extraction? Think of how easy it is to cut through fresh comb with some thin wire or fishing line.


One might think so in theory, but in practise it doesn't happen, in my younger days I'd spend a couple of months extracting 2 or 3 tons a day and never saw this.

Only time I'll see wires pull out of a comb is if it's subjected to a pretty extreme trauma, ie a comb of honey dropped and smashed. But in the normal course of extraction, comb would break long before wire would pull out.

However some of the ideas above have merit I guess it depends on a persons perspective. Cos I've been a commercial, messing with rubber bands, uncapping one side only, etc. just isn't time efficient. But for someone with just a few hives it may not be an issue.

But I guess the best argument for wiring, is that feeling you get when you are working your hive, and your comb drops out of the frame and smashes. Each to their own though, EOD it's purely personal preference.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Like everything in beekeeping, foundationless frames will interest you depending on your basic assumptions.

My assumption was that acaricide residue in foundation is a potential problem. It may not be a large problem, but I'm a person who believes that the small things add up. When I discovered that it was possible to keep bees without foundation, I decided to give it a try. So far I like it a lot, though I'd probably have a different reaction if my bees had been determined to build wild comb.

It's cheaper.

It's less time consuming.

The bees like building their own comb, it would seem.

Once comb has been through a couple brood cycles, it should be plenty strong enough for extracting. Smalltimers have the time to manipulate their hives to rotate these combs into honey storage.

It's very interesting to observe what the bees build when left to their own device. This is possibly fanciful, but I suspect this might be a way that bees could communicate with the beekeeper, if the beekeeper has enough experience reading the bees' intent from the comb they build. Every good beekeeper I've talked to has stressed the importance of close observation, and this is another channel for that.

It's possible to regress bees, given patience, just by letting them build their own comb and cycling it out.

I don't have an extractor, so the extractability of foundationless comb is a non-issue for me. An advantage of crush and strain honey processing is that you have more beeswax for candles and salves, if you like to experiment with that sort of thing (my wife does.)

There's some evidence that keeping bees busy making wax can suppress the impulse to swarm.

Some non-grafting queen breeding processes appear to work better with fresh foundationless comb.

I'm sure there are also many disadvantages, but I haven't seen them yet. That said, I'm a hobbyist. No doubt I would have a completely different view if I had 500 hives.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Foundationless and wireless are 2 different things. 

Foundationless can work fine, provided a person is OK with a natural amount of drones. But life is made easier for the future, if wire is used. Fishing line can achieve similar, but is less strong and will typically weaken in around 3 years, although that may be enough for some.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I am not buying the concept of only uncapping one side at a time. This would create a very uneven force on the comb. I contend that uncapping both sides and bringing the extractor up to speed in increments would solve any comb breakage. This allows the majority of the honey to leave the cell on both sides of the comb before the extractor gets to top speed to take out the small amount of honey left in the cells.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Agreed. And with an extractor like yours Ace I'm sure you would have to be an authority on this. 

Where I am we get some viscous honeys, and uncapping both sides and spinning up in increments is very important. Probably a bit why I'm prejudiced towards wire also, wireless just wouldn't work in these areas unless you wanted to crush & strain.


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## Huntingstoneboy (Feb 10, 2013)

Newbie here, want to say great thread, and great input from all you guys. I intend on running foundationless with popsicle sticks for starters, between mannlakes small cell frames (every other one) to help keep things straight. Any thoughts on this? Should I add wax or sugar water to the plastic (believe they are lightly coated)? Will this work or just confuse the bees?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Just to clarify, are you wanting to start the hive on small cell plastic foundation, with a foundationless frame between each one? Or is it an existing hive?

Dumping bees into a hive of small cell plastic foundation alternated between foundationless frames is asking for a mess.

Tell us just what you are wanting to do & we'll tell you how best to do it.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Huntingstoneboy said:


> Newbie here, want to say great thread, and great input from all you guys. I intend on running foundationless with popsicle sticks for starters, between mannlakes small cell frames (every other one) to help keep things straight. Any thoughts on this? Should I add wax or sugar water to the plastic (believe they are lightly coated)? Will this work or just confuse the bees?


I'm no expert, but I don't think the foundation is necessary. I hived a package a couple weeks ago in a six frame space-- just empty frames with comb guides, and they've built out the comb beautifully. They haven't completely filled the frames yet, but I have capped brood on 3 or 4 frames.

Maybe I've just been lucky, but I get happy when I peek into the hive and see nice straight comb. I took this picture yesterday:










I think the comb guides with a triangular cross section are the best, and if you have a table saw, or a friend with a table saw, you can knock out a hundred of them in an hour.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> ... Foundationless can work fine, provided a person is OK with a natural amount of drones. ...


 This is really interesting - I am 100% foundationless and technically "frameless"... I have no problem with drones. It seems to me, girls control it pretty well. We had drones 2 month ago probably in swarm preparation. Than I chekerboard and it changes their mind. Soon after chekerboarding, I noticed that girls are very busy evicting drones! For while, there were no drones at all. Now, I noticed some drones again, but it is very little (to my taste) - may be one drone landed in 2-3 minutes. Also, all girl's fresh comb is usually used for nectar first, than for brood and I saw 10-20 drone cells at the periphery of the comb sometime. I just did not see the bar full of drone cells.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

rhaldridge said:


> ... I took this picture yesterday:
> 
> View attachment 5571


Another beautiful comb- congratulations!!!!!


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

cerezha said:


> This is really interesting - I am 100% foundationless and technically "frameless"... I have no problem with drones. It seems to me, girls control it pretty well. We had drones 2 month ago probably in swarm preparation. Than I chekerboard and it changes their mind. Soon after chekerboarding, I noticed that girls are very busy evicting drones! For while, there were no drones at all. Now, I noticed some drones again, but it is very little (to my taste) - may be one drone landed in 2-3 minutes. Also, all girl's fresh comb is usually used for nectar first, than for brood and I saw 10-20 drone cells at the periphery of the comb sometime. I just did not see the bar full of drone cells.


That is interesting. I was told by some folks that the bees would draw a lot of drone comb if I didn't use foundation, Out of the 8 or 9 combs the first hive has drawn since I installed the nuc 6 weeks ago, there's only been one patch of drone comb. It's a pretty big patch, about a third of a frame. As they often do, the bees started two separate combs and eventually filled the frame and joined the two combs. I think that when they drew that drone comb, they were considering swarming. The hive was bursting with bees and there was a good flow going on. I found a few queen cups, though none were occupied. I opened up the brood nest by adding several empty frames and moving the follower board out. The next time I looked the queen cups were gone. They haven't been drawing any more drone comb.

The new hive doesn't have any drone comb, but it's from a 2 week old package, and I assume they know they need workers. There's a lot of capped brood in that hive now, even though the frames aren't fully drawn yet, so I think that hive is about to take off. The flow must still be pretty good, because in 2 weeks, they didn't take a whole quart of syrup. I took out the feeder yesterday, and I hope they'll do okay.

I know I've said this before, probably too many times, but I'm really loving these long hives. They're so pleasant to work, and you can get a very good idea of what's going on in them without disturbing the bees much at all.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Nucs or new packages won't typically draw drone comb as they don't need it, they're trying to build up. I think most people have issues with established hives and then start putting foundationless frames in and then the girls are all too happy to make a frame of drone comb.


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## SallyD (Mar 12, 2011)

Could you do a super of foundation and a super of foundationless?


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

JRG13 said:


> Nucs or new packages won't typically draw drone comb as they don't need it, they're trying to build up. I think most people have issues with established hives and then start putting foundationless frames in and then the girls are all too happy to make a frame of drone comb.


Does that mean they _ were_ thinking about swarming when they built that drone comb?


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## R Dewhurst (Dec 22, 2012)

rhaldridge said:


> Does that mean they _ were_ thinking about swarming when they built that drone comb?


Hives are supposed to and will have drones at a certain percentage, from all the readings I have come across.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

I have had good and bad with foundationless, the bad being comb drawn across the frames connecting up to three frames, easily ripped out though. I have enough drawn out frames now that I just stick a foundationless frame between drawn frames and they draw them out how they will, drone comb or brood comb.

I used to used mono to help with support, but have skipped that step since expermenting with a comb that was barely attached on a couple points on the sides and nothing on the bottom, still very strong. 

I have also gone to a solid bottom board which should help them draw all the way out to the bottom of the frame!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

rhaldridge said:


> Does that mean they _ were_ thinking about swarming when they built that drone comb?


No, all hives want drone comb. Yours will build more once they are not feeling the urgency to produce workers.
A survey done once on wild hives found 19% drone comb on average. For me, I've found small hives will build less or none, and the bigger they are, the higher % of drone comb they can afford, a big strong hive may build well over 20% drone comb. (assuming natural comb).


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## Huntingstoneboy (Feb 10, 2013)

@ oldtimer...Yes I am planning on putting "new" bees on both foundationless and small cell. I am setting 4 traps, and helping a gentleman remove some hives from barns, houses, etc. We will put some cutouts in those hives. Why would i get " a mess"? Should I run all foundationless or all small cell plastic in each individual hive?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Likely get a mess because the bees don't like building comb on plastic foundation, if there are gaps caused by foundationless frames between each plastic foundation, they will fill the gap with a mishmash of comb, to avoid building on the plastic.

My recommendation would be put the bees on pure plastic small cell foundation, ie, every frame sc plastic foundation. They then have little option but build the combs the way you want. Once combs are built, you can then start putting your foundationless frames between them which they should build properly because once the combs are built on the plastic, there is less room between and the bees will probably just put one straight comb in, long as you have good comb guides.


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

If you want to go foundationless then just start with a clean slate. Most of the hives I started with empty frames did everything right the first try. I did have to fix a few combs early on in a couple of them but overall it was fun and easy. Fixing combs is not hard, just make sure to inspect every three or four days and you will be fine and won't have to deal with a mix of methods in your hives.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

I agree that bees in a single box will draw out new foundationless combs pretty well, iow not too many drones; however, when you pull them into a second and third box of brood, my experience is that there will often be several frames with all or a high percentage of drone brood, and that continues as you go up. I always try to move this up and away from the brood nest.
Now, I'm not complaining so much as stating how it is. Late in the season the bees do reduce their drone production as they fill the combs with honey. Furthermore, I've been absolutely amazed by the large size of cells that they build for in the supers when it is purely for honey storage.
In my many years of foundation beekeeping I had never seen such large cells before.
I do believe they raise many more drones on foundationless. Does it result in less honey production? My guess is that early in the year the answer is yes. Later in the year, probably no. I did get a good harvest last year on the natural cell in the end as I had a good late honey flow. I know that some argue that a lot of drone rearing does not reduce honey production. I don't claim to have enough experience of natural cell to be willing to state my opinion as fact.


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## Huntingstoneboy (Feb 10, 2013)

Thanks guys for the input. I may try all 3 ways...ie. all foundationless, all small cell plastic, and then a hive with a combo of each. I will keep you guys posted how it all turns out.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

You will find some queens will not lay on small cell plastic......


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

I ran this experiment 2 years ago.... on 10 hives each... I found they do draw faster foundationless. They don't draw small cell. and when forced on small cell some hives do "okay" none thrived. and several hives died because the queen would not lay on small plastic.

I also found in my opinon that foundationless was a waste of time, broken comb, unfilled frames and comb I couldnt extract as well as random drone cells made it not worthwhile for me.
Its impossible to do effective drone trapping on foundationless, and dang near impossible to extract. Wires help but foundation is quicker and cleaner..... Were it not, then it wouldn't sell.... but probably 80% of the beeks are useing it.......


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

I also use fishing line to add a bit of strength to fresh comb.
I put a frame with a double strand of fishing line between two frames already drawn out and the bees then draw it out nice and evenly between the preexisting comb.
I do this in colonies I want to produce drones at mating apiary sites.
They invariably draw out drone comb although this depends upon the time of year and colony strength as well.

I drill 2 holes in each side bar with a 2mm bit and use 30lb monofilament fishing line.
The fishing line is held taut with 2 drawing pins pressed into the side bar.

A strong colony can draw out a frame and the queen can have it laid up within 48 hours.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

thats what I found as typical foundationless. Not attached at the bottos. sides vary. even after 3-4 years. which means handeling them is a pain in the butt


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

gmcharlie said:


> You will find some queens will not lay on small cell plastic......


I would say that this would be rare. In 5 years of using SC plastic I have never had a problem. Perhaps my queens haven't been as finicky as some.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

gmcharlie said:


> I ran this experiment 2 years ago.... on 10 hives each... I found they do draw faster foundationless. They don't draw small cell. and when forced on small cell some hives do "okay" none thrived. and several hives died because the queen would not lay on small plastic.


It might have been an unrealistic expectation to hope that large cell bees would draw small cell comb in foundationless frames. Some folks say that if allowed to draw their own comb, they will draw slightly smaller cells, but apparently you need to go through several sets of comb, each one a bit smaller than the last, in order to regress bees down to 4.9 mm. The small cell package from Wolf Creek that I installed seems to be drawing small cell comb on my foundationless frames, as you would expect.



gmcharlie said:


> I also found in my opinon that foundationless was a waste of time, broken comb, unfilled frames and comb I couldnt extract as well as random drone cells made it not worthwhile for me.
> Its impossible to do effective drone trapping on foundationless, and dang near impossible to extract. Wires help but foundation is quicker and cleaner..... Were it not, then it wouldn't sell.... but probably 80% of the beeks are useing it.......


This may not be a helpful observation, but according to the Bee Informed winter mortality survey, removal of drone brood has no significant effect on colony survival.

http://beeinformed.org/2012/03/bee-informed-national-management-survey-2010-2011/#varroa

I wish I knew what you and Michael Bush are doing differently. He says he has no difficulty extracting foundationless comb. Right now it doesn't matter to me, because I don't have an extractor, but in the future, who knows? I've already become addicted to keeping the little bugs.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

WEll you would have to ask mike about his, but I use a 21 frame radial, and I extract deep frames. I don't think Michael uses anything but meds.....

And believe me they make a mess when they come apart,


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

gmcharlie said:


> WEll you would have to ask mike about his, but I use a 21 frame radial, and I extract deep frames. I don't think Michael uses anything but meds.....


Makes sense. Do you think it might work better with a tangential extractor?


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

gmcharlie said:


> I ran this experiment 2 years ago.... on 10 hives each... I found they do draw faster foundationless. They don't draw small cell. and when forced on small cell some hives do "okay" none thrived. and several hives died because the queen would not lay on small plastic.
> 
> I also found in my opinon that foundationless was a waste of time, broken comb, unfilled frames and comb I couldnt extract as well as random drone cells made it not worthwhile for me.
> Its impossible to do effective drone trapping on foundationless, and dang near impossible to extract. Wires help but foundation is quicker and cleaner..... Were it not, then it wouldn't sell.... but probably 80% of the beeks are useing it.......


Drone Trapping has GOT to one of the most monumental WASTEs of resources in beekeeping. Drone comb is not a big deal to me, as mentioned by someone else they move it up and out of the brood nest. I do it a little differently I move it over to 1,2 or 9,10 position and when the drones hatch more than likely they will put honey in it, and what do I care what size the cell is they store "Their" honey in. Most people's biggest mistake in trying to do foundationless, (as opposed to not having the hive level side to side) is that they remove the drone comb that the bees build and put another empty frame in, so the bees proceed to build more drone comb, and on and on and on. If you LEAVE it on the outskirts of the broodnest, they will know they have drone comb when needed and will go back to making worker cells (assuming 1 or 2 frames is all they want and you are feeding the frames into the middle of the brood nest).

I have very little problems extracting my foundationless frames. I have gone to extracting them tangentially and with the support of the basket they do just fine. This includes deep frames, but I don't do a ton of extracting honey in deeps. The way I run my operation is that anything in the bottom 2 boxes (deeps) is theirs, and anything above that is MINE (mediums). I probably could get more honey if I stole from the bottom deeps on a regular basis, but I think it would adversely affect my overwintering results as well.


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

actually no clue, I have never used one!....


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

rhaldridge said:


> Do you think it might work better with a tangential extractor?


Just the opposite, use a radial extractor and if you can slip a couple of rubber bands over the frame before you put them in the extractor, all the better.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> Agreed. And with an extractor like yours Ace I'm sure you would have to be an authority on this.


The uneven force is not so much on the extractor as it would be on the comb.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Drone Trapping has GOT to one of the most monumental WASTEs of resources in beekeeping.

AND you'll be selecting Varroa mites that prefer workers... not a good plan...


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## Sir_Gregory (Apr 19, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> AND you'll be selecting Varroa mites that prefer workers... not a good plan...


How can you select for Varroa mites that do this? 

I dont know how but if the Varroa mites can and do find the drone comb in the hive, go inside the cell, get sealed in with the drone larva, I take it out and place it in the freazer--killing everthing on the frame, then place it back into the hive. On top of that I repeat this for some time.

If I follow this prosses, how will I select for worker larva preferring mites?

I dont mean to be rude but I would truly like to know.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Sir_Gregory said:


> How can you select for Varroa mites that do this?
> 
> I dont know how but if the Varroa mites can and do find the drone comb in the hive, go inside the cell, get sealed in with the drone larva, I take it out and place it in the freazer--killing everthing on the frame, then place it back into the hive. On top of that I repeat this for some time.
> 
> ...


Because the only mites that survive and reproduce are the ones that are in worker brood, therefore if there is a genetic componet to what type of cell they prefer you are selecting for this with drone trapping.


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

> How can you select for Varroa mites that do this?




Its a pretty simple concept. Think of freezing drone comb as a kind of filter. Every time you do it you filter out all the mites that like to go into drone combs and leave behind the ones that prefer worker brood. The next generation of mites are raised from those survivors. Whatever variations they had that made them not go into the drone comb will be passed on to their offspring who are now even less likely to go into drone comb than their parents.

Keep it up long enough and one day you will have bred a strain of mites that completely avoid drone cells.

Perhaps an easier way to think of it is to imagine you are a dog breeder. You have a bunch of mutts of all different colors. You want to breed a kind of dog that is all white so you pick out ten of your dogs who have the most white and kill all the rest. Those mostly white dogs have one hundred puppies, most of which are white, and some of which are all white. You again select the ten whitest dogs from that batch and kill the rest. This new batch of dogs again has a hundred puppies, and since their parents where either all white or mostly white almost all the puppies will be white and now many of them are pure white, you keep this up and every generation you keep only the ten whitest puppies.

Eventually you will create a breed of dog that is all white and which only has all white puppies. From time to time mutations will occur that cause a puppy or two to be born of a different color but as long as you only allow the all white dogs to live that is all you will get.

Now, if you think of the mites that don't go into drone comb as the white dogs in the above example you start to see the problem. Whatever population you allow to survive is the one that will become more common over time.

Of course, its much easier to breed for something like color in a dog than behavior in a mite but the exact same thing happens over time and given how much more quickly generations of mites arise than in something like a dog you can fairly rapidly change that type of species. Resistant organisms have become a huge problem all over the world because of these type of practices.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Aerindel said:


> ...Of course, its much easier to breed for something like color in a dog than behavior in a mite but the exact same thing happens over time and given how much more quickly generations of mites arise than in something like a dog you can fairly rapidly change that type of species. Resistant organisms have become a huge problem all over the world because of these type of practices.


 yes, the reproduction cycle of mites is much-much shorter than for dogs, thus the "evolution" (selection) works really quick in insect's world. Unfortunately, our approaches in many cases are against "mother-nature"  Mite's resistance is partially result of unwise use of chemicals and/or approaches. Main problem arises when we just partially kill the "enemy" (mites etc) - it is a way to breed the resistant strains... For instance, in hospitals, we currently breed the bacteria, which may not be killed by *ANY* antibiotics... yes, it is true! Ironically, bee products such as propolis are effective sometime against that super-bacteria...


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

Sir_Gregory said:


> I dont mean to be rude but I would truly like to know.


If there is natural variation in the mite population with some preferring worker brood over drone brood then killing those which select drone brood will favour an increase in the population of mites which prefer worker brood, assuming the trait is heritable.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

I do not know how much true in it, but some believes that using large-cell (5.4 mm) foundation caused worker bees to be bigger and varroa mixed up and attacked worker-bee cells instead drones... there were believe that smaller cells for workers (4.9 mm) could address this issue, not true, I guess. This idea is partially supported by observation that for instance AHB (africanized) are small and somehow manage varroa... Thus, there is a movement towards using a natural cell size - foundationless.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

jonathan said:


> *If* there is natural variation in the mite population with some preferring worker brood over drone brood then killing those which select drone brood will favour an increase in the population of mites which prefer worker brood, *assuming* the trait is heritable.


I think you've nailed it Jonathan, the operative words on which the theories in the last few posts are based, is the *if*, and *assuming*. 
We don't know if any mites prefer worker brood more or less than other mites, because it's never been demonstrated.

I do get a bit annoyed with these kind of suppositions that get discussed, seemingly using science to back them, as in this case. And anyone who can see past that, is considered ignorant, or to be attacking science. 

The fact is, we don't know if any mites have any more preferences than any other mites, and it is quite conceivable that drone harvesting could be done for the next 100 years with no effect at all on their preference. It also may not be the case. But we don't know.

Just saying, cos I see quite a bit of this kind of thing going on, in the guise of science. But good science is based on facts, and in this case, none have been demonstrated.

To me, if drone harvesting is working for someone, they should go for it. As it's a management intensive procedure I cannot see it ever being done in sufficient amount to have any effect from an evolutionary perspective, even if some mites did have more preference than others. To take the above presented arguments to extreme, we should never do anything, about anything. And that often doesn't work.

I saw a quote here that went something like, we should accomplish more and more by doing less and less until finally we can do everything by doing nothing. Personally I think that's a load of gobbledegook.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> The fact is, we don't know if any mites have any more preferences than any other mites, and it is quite conceivable that drone harvesting could be done for the next 100 years with no effect at all on their preference. It also may not be the case. But we don't know.


I thought is was science that suggested or proved (not sure) that mites prefer drones over worker bees and it is the manipulation of managed hives that forced them to do otherwise.:scratch:


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes it has been shown in some studies that mites prefer drone cells to worker cells.

That's not what I or anyone else was talking about though.

For evolution to occur by selection, some mites have to prefer them *more than other mites* prefer them. So that selection could be made towards the mites that prefer them *more*. That is the part that has not been proven.

A little confusing I know, pretty sure you will not be the only one that took it that way Ace. There is little argument that mites prefer drone cells.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Oldtimer said:


> I think you've nailed it Jonathan, the operative words on which the theories in the last few posts are based, is the *if*, and *assuming*.
> We don't know if any mites prefer worker brood more or less than other mites, because it's never been demonstrated.
> 
> I do get a bit annoyed with these kind of suppositions that get discussed, seemingly using science to back them, as in this case. And anyone who can see past that, is considered ignorant, or to be attacking science.
> ...


First keep in mind the person who asked the question asked HOW it could happen I don't believe they asked us to scientifically PROVE it. If you will notice in my post I simply explained the mechanism by where drone harvesting could allow for mites that prefer worker cells over drone cells to propagate and become dominate. That part was scientific fact. I even mentioned in my post that I don't know if there is a genetic component or not, but that doesn't change the fact that drone trapping is a huge waste of resources. Much better ways to battle varroa than wasting food on something that is going to be killed.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You should be able to go to a feral hive and see if there are any mites in a worker cell. If the mite did not prefer the worker bee over the drone there would not be any mites in the worker cell of a hive that was not managed.


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## JStinson (Mar 30, 2013)

I'm glad this thread has evolved into the drone trapping debate. I have been thinking seriously about trying it. Back to the drawing board...


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

rweakley said:


> First keep in mind the person who asked the question asked HOW it could happen I don't believe they asked us to scientifically PROVE it. If you will notice in my post I simply explained the mechanism by where drone harvesting *could allow for mites that prefer worker cells over drone cells* to propagate and become dominate. That part was scientific fact. I even mentioned in my post that I don't know if there is a genetic component or not, but that doesn't change the fact that drone trapping is a huge waste of resources. Much better ways to battle varroa than wasting food on something that is going to be killed.


Yes but the assumption here is that these mites exist, ie, mites that have a greater preference, than other mites.

Apart from that though, fair enough points.

Ace - I think you are still missing it. Yes, in a feral hive it will be likely there will be a higher % of infestation in the drone larvae than the worker larvae. But the debate here is that some mites would do this more than other mites, and could therefore be selected out of the other mites for the trait. I'm saying that this has never been shown to be the case.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> ...For evolution to occur by selection, some mites have to prefer them *more than other mites* prefer them....


 Not, it is not true. Evolution is driven by selection forces. It is not possible for specie to have preferences "in advance", before the selection force applied. In our case, selection force is intentional elimination of the drone-loving mites. Once the force has been applied, THAN, under this force, mites would be forced to find a solution ... one of solution may be to attack innocent workers instead drones. There is no preexisting bee-worker mite lovers if the initial condition is true (they prefer drones). Since drones (with mites) are eliminating constantly, mites has no chance but to be adjusted (positive selection) to worker-bees or they will lost the battle. Since mites did not lost the battle (we know this very well ), it basically indicates that indeed, mites adapted to attack worker bees and therefore persist in the hive.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Well, whether or not drone trapping selects for mites that like worker brood, it apparently doesn't help colonies to survive, so what's the point of doing it?.

According to the Bee Informed survey, those who did drone trapping lost 35 percent of their colonies over the winter of 2010-2011. Those who did not lost 34 percent of their colonies.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Good point Ray. But the survey also reveals a weakness in these types of surveys. It could be, that people who are inclined to do drone brood removal for mite control, were less concerned about the hives that were obviously booming, but did it more on hives they felt were under mite pressure. And these hives could be more likely to end up dead, drone removal, or not.

Also, I suspect that the numbers involved may not have been big enough to give a low margin of error.

None the less, not criticising the survey in any way, the more people take part in it, the more useful it is.


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

Mites prefer drone brood over worker brood by a factor of 8.3 or maybe 11.6

Possible reasons for drone cell preference could be that drone pupae and worker pupae smell differently or the fact that the mites invade drone cells earlier than worker cells.

There is an obvious reason why mites do better in drone cells as the cells are capped for longer and they can produce more viable offspring. 2-3 as opposed to 1 or 2 from a worker cell. The first egg a mite lays produces a male and subsequent eggs laid at 30 hour intervals produce females.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Thanks Jonathan. And I don't see anything in those studies about a natural variation in preferences between mites. Kind of lends support to what I've been saying, which is, that none has been demonstrated.

Hope nobody thinks I've been saying mites don't prefer drone brood.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I saw a quote here that went something like, we should accomplish more and more by doing less and less until finally we can do everything by doing nothing. Personally I think that's a load of gobbledegook.

From one of the great books of wisdom of all time, the Tao Te Ching, studied and esteemed by billions (literally) of people...

"The master accomplishes more and more by doing less and less until finally he accomplishes everything by doing nothing." --Laozi, Tao Te Ching 

This, of course is impossible, but it is a laudable goal. The point is that when we are in the flow of reality and using that flow to our advantage things are effortless compared to fighting that flow and trying to make reality be something other than what it is.

While billions appreciate the writings of Laozi, I doubt you can find that many who think his writings are "a load of gobbledegook."

As far as preferences, obviously when there are drone larvae in the hive, some mites are choosing them, and some are choosing workers. I prefer to propagate the ones that prefer drones...


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## gmcharlie (May 9, 2009)

Well I certianly didn't mean to change the topic with the drone trapping comment, just to point it out, some do it. and it is dificult to do in a foundationless.

But where is the data that shows its selective breeding of mites? and this it doesn't help? I fully realize that its not a total solution, but who says it does not delay things enough to help?? And I really doubt that Mites are geneticly programed to pick one over the other. Any more than starlings are programed to nest in my garage rather than in a tree. They are oportunist...... Lots of really interesting arguments, but no way to scientificly prove anything.

I don't think Drone trapping is a soulution, any more than powdered sugar, but that doesn't mean its not helpful in delaying the population boom of the mites. Its not my treatment method, but I am not going to make up arguments against it.
Now back to the OP
which way are you going to go??


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

This argument is a little 'over the top', at least as far as I'm concerned.
I have stated that my 'natural cell' bees will raise multiple frames of drone brood, and yes, this is mostly done in the spring and early summer before the big 'flow' that we all hope to have.
I personally have found it very easy to take some drones and break them apart. This is an easy way for me to see if there are a lot of mites. For this I have been criticized. And if I find what appears to be large numbers of mites in the drone comb, I will tear out as much as I can. There is no way that I, or anyone else, remove all of the drone comb; however, I feel that this is a good action given the presence of many mites, and the fact that it is warm season and the honey is flowing.
I don't see why this is a problem. And in 2011 when I first discovered mites in my bees, and 2012, I had a lot of losses until I stopped doing 'nothing'. And yes, I have yet to see a mite on one of my bees in spite of frequent inspections.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

I read and appreciated the Tao many years ago.
The theme, as I recall, is 'perseverance furthers'.
I consider this to be a key to a successful life.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> "The master accomplishes more and more by doing less and less until finally he accomplishes everything by doing nothing." --Laozi, Tao Te Ching ...


Luckily my bees have not read the book, and do not subscribe to the same principle. 

I haven't read the book either, so am not commenting on the entire book I have no idea what's in it. My former comments were just directed to the quoted statement, so no disrespect to the book in general. Hope that smooth's things over.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

No probllems here, Oldtimer. I suggest you read the book. It's small and an easy read.
I think that you will like it.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I'm a little too real world, I suspect.

However, I do understand ( I think ), the thrust of the quote, it's about efficiency, and that I'll agree with.


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## Joel_T (Feb 8, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Yes it has been shown in some studies that mites prefer drone cells to worker cells.





Oldtimer said:


> Yes, in a feral hive it will be likely there will be a higher % of infestation in the drone larvae than the worker larvae. But the debate here is that some mites would do this more than other mites, and could therefore be selected out of the other mites for the trait. I'm saying that this has never been shown to be the case.


Whether the conclusion you suggest is that _all_ mites prefer a drone cell environment or that _most_ prefer drone cells it appears that the "trait" is already established. I'd think a squeeze would be put on the mites by reducing that preferred environment or at least making it uncomfortable.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes, and that has been demonstrated in the field.

So in this particular case, the statistics provided to the national bee survey do not reflect what actually happens, so presumably sample size was too small to give good margin of error, or, other factors were involved that were not recorded in the survey.

Other figures provided in the survey were likely pretty useful, and the more people that do the survey, the better.


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