# Brood breaks for mite control



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Your points are well taken Johno. I have no scientific evidence that a simple interruption helps control varroa and it may do little unless you are at the same time reducing the population of your larger hives by making splits. A brood break when using cells is about a 3 week gap. It is going to expose pretty much all varroa (with the exception of some in drone brood) to a variable phoretic period of anywhere between a few hours up to 2 weeks. This certainly can't be a good thing for mite populations. I don't understand all the mechanics of what is going on in a brood break but I know large hives early in the season allowed to continue to grow without treatment fare far worse through the season than hives that we're made up as a 3 to 4 comb untreated nuc in the early spring. I just think its simple math relating to the exponential growth of varroa in a hive through a long season.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Thanks for your reply Jim, and I go along with creating many nuc's from a large hive will devide the mite poulation among the nuc's and with the many queens will soon out pace the growth of the mite population but at some point in the fall the brood poulations will slow and the mites will catch up so unless the bee's themselves slow down the mites or the beekeeper takes some sort of action the mites will win. So mmaybe splitting into nuc's is just a delaying action.
Johno


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

If it delays the mite population from reaching "critical mass" until after you have removed the honey crop then that in itself is a victory. That is what a brood break is intended to do, delay the reproduction so you have more mite free bees later in the year. At that point you can evaluate the mite loads and make a decision whether or not the mite loads are high enough to consider some sort of treatment.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

now that i have a method for taking mite counts (alcohol shaker), my current plan is to take mite counts after the spring/summer harvest.

if i find a colony with high mites, (not sure what that is yet, but say > 4 mites/100 bees), the queen gets pinched.

most of the brood in the now queenless hive will be allowed to hatch, and i'll sugar dust them to get rid of the phoretic mites.

if i am still raising queens, the remains of that colony will be divided up into mating nucs.

if i am through raising queens, hopefully i'll have a promising nuc to combine with the 'treated' colony.


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## Rube63 (Jun 28, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIYz65Vquxg

This video would be helpful. The way I understand it is when the new queen starts to lay the mites overload the first few thousand cells she lays in and use up all of the nutrition and die along with the host bee. So 1000 bees will take down 5 or 10 times that many mites. Sounds like a plan to me.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

We don't have mites in Australia, but I would try moving the queen to different boxes in the hive.

Two ways:
1. Have three brood boxes and the move the queen between the bottom one and the top one every 3-4 weeks. When you move her also move the queen excluder above the bottom brood box or below the top brood box so she can't get into the middle box.

2. Have 2x2 story brood boxes right next to each other and move the queen between them every 3-4 weeks. Have supers centred above the two side by side boxes. It just means you need two bases and you need to make two half width roofs.

Matthew Davey


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I would keep in mind, phoretic mites are also the most vulnerable. W/O capped brood they all become susceptible to being groomed or knocked off in flight, which probably decreases the population fairly rapidly if you bees groom well.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Here are two overall reports about Varroa mites from two universities.
http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/pdfs/2.03 copy.pdf
http://www.clemson.edu/extension/beekeepers/factsheets/varroa_mite_control_in_sc.html

I only saw a short one sentence comment from Clemsen that mentioned a brood break as a means of control.

NCSU does have another paper that does mention caging a queen.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Thanks for the replies, but it appears we are only looking at untested theories as far as brood breaks are concerned. WE really need to investigate this further, in 2013 I will set aside a few hives and do some mite counts before and after brood breaks and see for myself what comes of it.
Johno


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you have a mare and you're raising a foal every year and you take a break for a year will you get less foals? Of course. I haven't looked for research but I'm sure there is some. However I do not do purposeful brood breaks. I don't have Varroa issues to deal with.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> If you have a mare and you're raising a foal every year and you take a break for a year will you get less foals? Of course. I haven't looked for research but I'm sure there is some. However I do not do purposeful brood breaks. I don't have Varroa issues to deal with.


I think you are missing the point of the OP which is inquiring what mechanism actually increases the effect of a brood break beyond the simple delay in brood rearing. Think of it more as what a traffic light does to traffic when it goes red. Sure cars back up for a bit but does it actually reduce traffic. In the case of varroa, I believe there is an advantage but I cant prove it, perhaps its just rebuilding your bees into a smaller unit with smaller populations that gives you the biggest benefit. I can only say since we have begun such a program our mite numbers are lower and the quality of our bees has improved.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Uh-oh. Barry must have slept in this morning.  Looks like we have a duplicate thread going.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I did! I told my wife last night I wasn't going to get out of bed in the morning till 9:00! Been getting up too early the last week and then falling asleep in my recliner in the evening. I'm still too young for that! LOL Thanks for the heads up.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> most of the brood in the now queenless hive will be allowed to hatch, and i'll sugar dust them to get rid of the phoretic mites.


And this is one of the biggest advantages of breaking the brood cycle. I am not a believer in routine PS treatments, but targeted PS treatments as squarepeg points out can be very helpful.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

Since it does interrupt varroa population build up, it could be used as one more technique to give your bees an edge.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Absolutely, and the 3 week brood break followed by some sort of knockdown treatment is an effective way to control mites. A ps dusting, though, is only going to have a lot of effect if the bees can be fairly far removed from where the mites will ultimately end up when they are knocked down though. Powdered sugar is going to displace a lot of mites but may not ultimately kill very many though. Hopguard, OA, just to name a couple options would kill them if that is the route you choose. We are, however, straying from the OP who was wondering just how a simple brood break actually works to control varroa.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Once again thanks for the replies, To Michael and the mare and foal analogy I would ask that if the mare and foal are tick infested would the mare not foaling reduce the tick infestation? If we are considering mite treatment I would agree that after the removal of a queen creating a break would be an ideal time for treatment when there is no brood present.
Johno


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Here's a question, what's the lifespan of a phoretic mite? i.e.. mite emerges from brood, how long can it survive phoretically before either dying or becoming unviable.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I believe the mite in the phoretic stage can live for 2 months, I seem to remember an article claiming that they can live longer than that, anyway 2 months seems long enough to re infest a hive.
Johno


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

The first part of my working life was spent in an accounting office which taught me that I hate counting, and for that reason I avoid counting mites. I am hopeful that incorporating a brood break and keeping bees in 5 over 5 frame nucs will allow me to avoid worrying about mites.
I think that between Mike Palmers (MP) nuc method, and Mel Disselkoen's "Outbreeding the mite theory" is the sweet spot in maintaining an apiary free of mite treatments.
Mike's nucleus methods are well documented here, but Mel's are less so. The OP asked if there was any scientific evidence to support the brood break as a viable method of mite control, and in a nutshell I haven't seen any. 
MP observes that his nucs don't need treating for mites but doesn't posit any theories as to why, and in addition to the nucs he overwinters colonies in 2 deeps and a medium (if memory serves).
Mel starts a fresh queen laying after June 22 from a split, and overwinters in a single here in the midwest. Roland overwinters in a single. I am overwintering the majority of my colonies in 5 over 5 frame nucs. 
5 of my 18 nucs did not get a brood break this summer, and I am curious to see their survival rate as compared to my others that by spring will have endured two brood breaks - the one where their queen emerged and waited then mated and the other enforced by winter.
I haven't treated my production colonies for mites. I have 11/12 alive so far in 10 frame equipment. Yesterday it was -16F in the morning, and all my mites are phoretic. If my production colonies live I intend to take a leaf out of MP's book (please hurry up and write one) and use the best as a basis for nuc making. I will consider surviving production colonies a bonus, otherwise I think of them as caretakers of comb for next years splits. 
I will throw out another complimentary theory here that comes from processing the anecdotal evidence from the extensive experience of MP, Mel, and Roland. What if the answer is what the bees tell as when they want to swarm? They want a cavity the size of a single deep. They want this volume because it is the size that they have evolved to overwinter in most successfully, and, for undetermined reasons, this volume best suits the bee and the numbers therein least suit the mites.


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## Tony Rogers (Oct 18, 2012)

Perhaps this is a crazy idea but what would happen if one did the following for a mite infested hive.

1. Remove all the brood comb and freeze it.
2. While the comb is freezing, treat the hive with oxalic acid vapor.

It would seem that type of brood break would greatly reduce mite populations if not elliminate them.

Tony


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Sure cars back up for a bit but does it actually reduce traffic.

Traffic is not the same thing. Cars are not having babies. During the "red light" the Varroa are not reproducing. Most people doing a brood break are making a break of at least three to four weeks and that is three to four weeks that the Varroa are not reproducing. That is a lot less mites.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

True, bad analogy on my part. The crux of the thread, though, is if there is something more at play during a brood break that complicates varroa reproduction rather than a simple delay for the period of time in which there is no larvae of the proper age for mites to infest.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Tony that is the theory about frames of drone comb, mites are supposed to prefer drone cells over worker cells. I dont know the ratio you would find between mites in drone cells and worker cells, but the freezing of capped drone cells is another recomended practice.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I think it is accepted that brood break effect the mite population. There is good info on MDA Splitter site that shows mite populations and brood breaks.
http://www.mdasplitter.com/

The increase of a mortality rate or decrease of birth rates by a few percent either way can make the difference between extinction of a species. Right now the honey bee at best is holding its own. I believe feral bees are on the comeback. Maybe brood break after swarm season is a contributing factor. I will even bet that our beek practices such as treatments for bees that can’t survive on their own is hindering the feral bees by cross breed inferior bees with them. 
When a brood break takes place the phoretic mites move into the last of the open brood, often 5 or 6 mites in one cell. This will kill the brood and halt mite reproduction. This will also happen again when egg laying starts up. During this time mites still die naturally. You just might not be the same results in a different location due to other factors. Humidity is a factor in mite growth percentages. Different genes have different mite tolerances. A break in brood in the winter combined with a break in spring/summer should knock down mites more. Mites also are seasonal with growth peaking in September. And there are factors we don’t even know about that affect the mite reproduction rates. Hives in one part of the country may take 3 years for mite to kill a hive and other parts may take 6 months. 




johno said:


> I believe the mite in the phoretic stage can live for 2 months, I seem to remember an article claiming that they can live longer than that, anyway 2 months seems long enough to re infest a hive.
> Johno


I think I heard over 6 month, they can winter on the bees and out live the bees.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

FlowerPlanter said:


> I think it is accepted that brood break effect the mite population. There is good info on MDA Splitter site that shows mite populations and brood breaks.
> http://www.mdasplitter.com/
> 
> When a brood break takes place the phoretic mites move into the last of the open brood, often 5 or 6 mites in one cell. This will kill the brood and halt mite reproduction. This will also happen again when egg laying starts up. During this time mites still die naturally. You just might not be the same results in a different location due to other factors. Humidity is a factor in mite growth percentages. Different genes have different mite tolerances. A break in brood in the winter combined with a break in spring/summer should knock down mites more.


This makes complete sense. Sort of like overloading a life boat, there has to be a "tipping point" where suddenly everyone drowns.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Maybe it is accepted by some that brood breaks effect mite population, but a theory is not accepted until proven and I have not seen any lierature that lays out the proof of this. I have not seen any results of mite counts before and after brood breaks so I tend to remain skeptical. Bearing in mind that the mites breed at a ratio of at least 2:1 so Mels theory works when you continue splitting hives into nuc's and therefore stay ahead of the mite breeding curve like a ponzi setup sooner or later the mites will catch up unless something else plays a part.
Johno


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Johno: Perhaps you would want to lay out the specifics of what you tried. Time of year, length of break, length of brooding season, size of hives, estimated mite loads at the time you began etc., did you do it to all the hives in a given location or just some?


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Jim,I I started 2012 with 9 hives and for swarm prevention when swarm cells appeared in March through july the queen and some bee's were removed and hived in nuc's thi happened with 7 hives, the other 2 were packages that grew fast and swarmed.I caught them and hived them in August. They were the first hives I treated with formic acid and a fume board with large mite drops. theoretically there mite loads should have been relatively light after the brood break. I have been Requeening hives with Daughters from my carni queen and also from a VP spartan queen so there have been brood breaks in my hives throughout the year. Unfotunately I have not been sampling bee's for mite loads, and by seeing evidence of mites have been treating with formic acid and counting the mite fall. however I think I am going to hve to sample mite loads before and after any thing that I do and document the results to reach a conclusion as to what works or not. I must admit that I do not accept some of the stories that abound unless it is a proven theory, must be my suspicious nature or as Americans say just plain ornery
Johno


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>sample mite loads before and after any thing that I do and document the results to reach a conclusion as to what works or not.

good plan johno.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

"I have not been sampling bee's for mite loads" This would be why you are not seeing results. Just a break in brood by its self may not be enough. Some Beek use a break in brood along with some else like a soft treatment on phoretic mites or drone removal...
I don't sample either the thought of counting mites every day sounds terrible and that's not why I am a beek, a quick look in the SBB tells allot about a hive.

"I have been Requeening hives with Daughters from my carni queen and also from a VP spartan queen" Maybe your genes contribute to you results. I bet MB bee's contribute to his results.

The feral bees for example were almost wiped by the mites. They were doing the same thing then as now, same spring swarms... But for some reason or combination of reasons they are on the rise. 

I have no scientific evidence but there must be something to it. You don't get that many Beeks to agree and anything. That alone must be scientific evidence.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

johno said:


> Jim,I I started 2012 with 9 hives and for swarm prevention when swarm cells appeared in March through july the queen and some bee's were removed and hived in nuc's


This type of break does not permit a true broodless period and therefore would not be as effective as a true 28 day broodless period. You're saying that you made splits with queen cells that were already present, which means that you might have a laying queen in roughly 16 days. You would still have plenty of capped brood at the end of this period. When I attempt to induce a broodless period I make a cut-down split and make sure there are no queen cells present at the time of the split. You can either allow the colony to produce a queen or when sufficient time has passed introduce a cell. In VA the ideal time to make this brood break is in early June once the main spring flow has ended.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Guys thanks for your replies, but once again all the info is based on assumption, what is required is some documented facts. To start at what percentage of population is the mite load critical Clemson gives it at 5% if much above this the hive can be lost, so at some point some manipulations will work, above that point not. As to the feral bee story and the increase of such I suggest it might be in step with the growth of new beekeepers. Considering that all 9 of my hives in 2012 would of swarmed and yet very few of surrounding hives were seen to swarm. I must admit I am home most afternoons during the summer months and have my home hives in full view frommy lounge glass doors. As far as the genetic part goes it still amazes me that a feral hive with no help from man say Brother Adam could outperform domestic hives that are being reared for specific genetic traits. Does not really add up? What I am really trying to get at is that beekeepers should try to document more of the facts in procedures and manipulations than rely on he said she said.
Johno


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I think part of the issue is 'feral' hasn't really been researched and I agree with johno on this one, how many of these feral hives are true descendents of wild survivors and how many are from someone else's bees going free and if they truly are feral survivors what's being done to catalog this information.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The original question was if and if so how do brood breaks control varroa. I think both Astro Bee and myself gave some good accounts of how it seems to work in our operations and some suggestions for how johno might be able to implement it as well. Others have chimed in with logical observations of the mechanics of how it may well work. If scientific proof is required before trying any of these suggestions then I am not sure there is much more to be accomplished in this thread. I think brood breaks when properly done are generally accepted in the industry as being beneficial, and are about as uncontroversial a subject as you can find in mite control. I run lots and lots of hives in this manner. A brood break will be the only means of mite control I will use until fall. I dont feel the need to prove anything to anyone I am just relating my experiences. Take them for what they are worth.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

johno said:


> What I am really trying to get at is that beekeepers should try to document more of the facts in procedures and manipulations than rely on he said she said.
> Johno





JRG13 said:


> I think part of the issue is 'feral' hasn't really been researched and I agree with johno on this one, how many of these feral hives are true descendents of wild survivors and how many are from someone else's bees going free and if they truly are feral survivors what's being done to catalog this information.


johno, 100% agree, i started keeping careful notes last year.

jrg, i asked mike bush about this, and he felt like the 'ferals' we have today are pretty much 'mutts'.

but, it's likely that these 'feral mutt survivors' are developing resistant traits by natural selection, and these bees can help to introduce these traits into managed colonies via drones and open mating.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Guys, alot to think about in your posts, some times I sits and thinks and some times I just sits and its hard to tell the diff. Jim it would be good to know what the mite load is before a brood break and you would be counting phoretic mites and a count after the brood break should realy be a higher count or perhaps remain at the same level because the mites in the brood will emerge and all become phoretic, and there are so many unknown parameters there that can sway the outcome because the amount of mites in the bood is not known. I also think that you are treating in fall, also how do you do your queen breaks, I woul think that a queen cell into ahive would be a sufficient brood break after leaving the hive queenless for a week.Squarepeg as for feral hives around this part of the world I think most of them are from the same mutts that have been coming into this area for the past 5 years and I do not think their natural selection is any better than the USDA, Cobey and others that I can not remember names of. 
But 25 years down the varoa road we do not have a lot of data to rely on. You can just about pick any system of hive management and you find as many beekeepers claiming it does not work as claiming that it does So in the end dont trust verify. This means a lot of record keeping I am afraid But it is a poor wind that does not bring good to someone so maybe I will glean some good from all of this.
Johno


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>Squarepeg as for feral hives around this part of the world I think most of them are from the same mutts that have been coming into this area for the past 5 years and I do not think their natural selection is any better than the USDA, Cobey and others that I can not remember names of. 

true johno, but the thing is that unmanaged bees in the wild which have survived winter, and are able to continue through a season or two, at least have something going for them genetically, regardless of what strain they started out as.

it could be there are wild bees in your area that have been around for longer than five years. again, there's a lack of solid scientific research on that.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Here is the basic math with brood breaks. A ripe cell (10 to 11 days after grafting) will net you a laying queen in about 2 weeks. Larvae old enough to be invaded by varroa is around 8 to 9 days old. That gives you an 18 to 20 day break. If you want something longer than you can delay the introduction of your cell or mated queen accordingly keeping in mind that the gestation of worker brood is about 21 days and drone brood about 24. We do mite checks (doing either an ether roll or alcohol shake) at about 20 days after removing the queen to determine if a treatment is worthwhile and in recent years and have found very few mites. I hesitate to do any treatment at this stage with a young queen just getting started.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Thanks Jim,
Do you requeen all your hives every year, I believe this is what a lot of commercial beekeepers do. Do you treat hives in the fall, or do you only treat when you feel the mite loads require treatment Thanks
Johno


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Yes we requeen every year, I think I am probably in a minority in that regard. A fall treatment is all that has been required in recent years for us to keep mite numbers low.MAQS and hopguard are two treatments that are approved for use with honey supers on. I havent used either one and have not heard real encouraging reports on their efficacy when used while the bees are supered up. I just think its real difficult to make a significant dent in mite populations midsummer when the hives are tall and loaded with brood and bees.


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## delise128 (Aug 16, 2021)

johno said:


> Does anybody have any scientific evidence that brood breaks in the hive has any significant value in the reduction of varoa mites. I know it is touted to be a tool in the treatment of mites but have not found this to be the case in the hives I keep. considering when a queen is removed that egg laying ceases for about 30 days the mites that hatch would become phoretic until the new queen starts producing brood and then its just back to business for the mites. So no increase in mites in that period but also no increase in bee's so are not back where we started 30 days ago.
> Johno


Remember varroa have a life span too so (I think it is 30 days) each week 1/4 of the mites die of old age too so they do not reproduce. Only a fraction are still alive as I understand, 1/2 after 2 weeks 1/4 after 3 wks, etc. until brood is capped again.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

If this was true we would no longer have mites after a winter brood break, their lifespan is a lot more than 4 weeks I am sure.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

johno said:


> If this was true we would no longer have mites after a winter brood break, their lifespan is a lot more than 4 weeks I am sure.


The issue is no one is talking of the "winter mites".
Everyone talks about winter bees, but the long lived winter mites presumably don't exist (which they most certainly do)... LOL


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Wow! Here's a blast from the past! And still no even slightly scientific study on what happens to mites during a brood break. Anecdotally I have observed that colonies that swarm overwinter better. Except last year when even caught swarms had varroa in unsustainable numbers.... Anybody have a study yet?


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