# Questions for the TF group



## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

1. Bee Source has a member who is a PhD geneticist. He is also a commercial breeder queen producer and must have some decent stock in view of the prices he sells queens for. At least to me $500 each and a minimum order of three queens is a lot of money. He sells as many as he is willing to produce each year. As becoming TF is 100% about genetics why have you people not gotten him here to help you? His name is Joe Latshaw. By the way, he tests queens every year that are supposed to be mite resistant. The man should be a gold mine of information for you if you could get him to talk to you. Or, is he too evil to talk to because he treats? Or because he is commercial?

2. Why not look up the breeding rules used by the Russian Queen Breeders Association members? Seems like it should be worthwhile to talk long and hard about what they are doing. The RQBA is a rather exclusive group. You do not join unless you are voted in as they are dedicated to producing commercially valuable queens that are also treatment free or as close as they can get. So it is not a group for back yard bee keepers like me. By commercially valuable they mean bees that make honey. Lots of honey. Some of those Russian breeders are in the south, but not all of them. The president this year is from New England. Those of you that want bees that will do ok in the north should look at how the RQBA has moved from the pretty horrid stuff they started with not so many years ago to what they have today.

3. What are any of you doing about longevity? I have queens this spring that are entering their third year and are going gangbusters. I even have an II queen entering her third year. I will admit she has been pampered. I keep her in a weak sized nuc so she is limited on how much she can lay and when the nuc gets too strong I pull her and a couple of frames of brood and let the original raise another queen. I keep hearing that queens do not live as long as they used to. Are you selecting for long lives? If not why not? Remember, you get what you select for. If you tolerate swarming and short life queens you will get more of the same.


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

Thanks Richard, you make some interesting points. 
1. I did not know he was a member here. I will look in to him and see what he has to offer. I'm sure quality is good, otherwise he would not get the price. Surely he won't get that from a hobbyist or a sideliner with few exceptions. I would love to hear his input.

2. I have known about them for years. At the time they had small winter clusters and slow build-up which wasn't what I was looking for at the time. Nice to know they have improved. Would love to hear more experience's from those who have them.

3. I have limited experience at breeding, though I have done some. Most of the folks here that I have talked to, are not breeding yet, or just learning, let alone choose for primary factors such as fecundity, resistance(lots of that), disinclination to swarm(yes some). But you bring up a valid point, longevity. This would bring about a corresponding increase in the number of foraging bees, and therefore a higher performance per colony. Two factors come to mind. 1. a hereditary trait 2.The quality of nutrition of the larvae during their period of development. Do you look for this quality, you queens seem to be performing better than you had hoped.

Kind regards,


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## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

Not sure what to make of these questions.
Joe does contribute on Beesource (JSL - I believe)
Russian breeders info is openly available and there are many posts about those and other strains and the pros and cons of each including mutts and "feral" bees.
I also read discussions on queen life and there are many of us that use that as a criteria in our selection process.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

Richard Cryberg said:


> 1. Or, is he too evil to talk to because he treats? Or because he is commercial?


Did you really have too?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Richard Cryberg said:


> 1. Bee Source has a member who is a PhD geneticist. He is also a commercial breeder queen producer and must have some decent stock in view of the prices he sells queens for. At least to me $500 each and a minimum order of three queens is a lot of money. He sells as many as he is willing to produce each year. As becoming TF is 100% about genetics why have you people not gotten him here to help you? His name is Joe Latshaw. By the way, he tests queens every year that are supposed to be mite resistant. The man should be a gold mine of information for you if you could get him to talk to you. Or, is he too evil to talk to because he treats? Or because he is commercial?
> 
> 2. Why not look up the breeding rules used by the Russian Queen Breeders Association members? Seems like it should be worthwhile to talk long and hard about what they are doing. The RQBA is a rather exclusive group. You do not join unless you are voted in as they are dedicated to producing commercially valuable queens that are also treatment free or as close as they can get. So it is not a group for back yard bee keepers like me. By commercially valuable they mean bees that make honey. Lots of honey. Some of those Russian breeders are in the south, but not all of them. The president this year is from New England. Those of you that want bees that will do ok in the north should look at how the RQBA has moved from the pretty horrid stuff they started with not so many years ago to what they have today.
> 
> 3. What are any of you doing about longevity? I have queens this spring that are entering their third year and are going gangbusters. I even have an II queen entering her third year. I will admit she has been pampered. I keep her in a weak sized nuc so she is limited on how much she can lay and when the nuc gets too strong I pull her and a couple of frames of brood and let the original raise another queen. I keep hearing that queens do not live as long as they used to. Are you selecting for long lives? If not why not? Remember, you get what you select for. If you tolerate swarming and short life queens you will get more of the same.


These are all good points. 

Regarding Joe Latshaw, I'm not sure he ventures much into the treatment free forum, so we might need to contact him in other forums. That said, I've had some exchanges with him on beesource regarding VSH bees. My assessment of those conversations is that he's not totally sold on the concept of VSH. I'm not suggesting that VSH is the only path forward, but its the one I'm pursuing. Recalling from distant memory, I believe that he questions the economic viability of bees that spend too much energy removing brood. I tried to explain to him that my experience has been different and that you can have good mite tolerance and very good honey yields. I think some of the early, overly aggressive brood removal, and very poor brood qualities tainted his perspective. I believe that VSH has become substantially better, but there will likely always be a cost associated with some level of brood removal. However, once colonies achieve a low mite populations there is actually very little brood removal. 

That said, I'd love to hear his perspective on TF and its potential on a more national level.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Learning2Bee said:


> Did you really have too?


Shhhh... dont dare telling some (experienced) people why they shouldn't spoil an otherwise *excellent* writeup with uncalled for nonsense. I guess its too tempting.

AstroBee, thanks for sharing JL view on VSH. I am not TF, but talking with some of the TF breeders, their concern regarding VSH seem to intersect with that of JSL. In that, selecting (or overselecting) for specific traits may results in disadvantages.

On RC otherwise excellent & thought provoking post #3, I recently read articles / paper (have to find it) Queen capacity / longevity. If I recall correctly, the suggestion was that keeping smaller brood nest (one deep instead of two or three) increases Queen longevity.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> Are you selecting for long lives?


 Most don't keep track of the age of their queens. I've got 3 very good breeding candidates identified and set up to raise queens from. One of them is a blue dot 2015 queen. Queens do not last as long in the south as further north. This is a well known issue because queens in the deep south lay more total eggs in a year than queens further north. Longevity breeding is kind of like breeding elephants, you have to be in it a lot of years to make any progress.

I agree that Joe would be an excellent resource to work on mite resistance breeding. He would have to say how much he is willing to work on it with others.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

DaisyNJ said:


> AstroBee, thanks for sharing JL view on VSH. I am not TF, but talking with some of the TF breeders, their concern regarding VSH seem to intersect with that of JSL. In that, selecting (or overselecting) for specific traits may results in disadvantages.


It seems to me that once a belief is tossed around enough then everyone starts to accept it as truth. There is no question that the early VSH releases (mostly out of Glenn) were extremely VSH and didn't possess a very balanced set of traits. These early variants seem to have locked everyone's opinions of the bee. With II, that was a VERY long time ago. I suggest that you not blindly accept things tossed out as fact and instead acquire a variety of inputs from those actually working with the stock.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

AB - agreed. spent some time last summer with local commercial who transitioned from russian base into VSH Carni. They reported to have seen stunted hive growth due to too much VSH in some cases. Interestingly, they also ran into few breeder queens with offspring susceptible to extreme DWV. Last I heard the owner is following up with supplier. Ofcourse thats just one commercial experience.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Richard Cryberg said:


> Bee Source has a member who is a PhD geneticist. He is also a commercial breeder queen producer and must have some decent stock in view of the prices he sells queens for. At least to me $500 each and a minimum order of three queens is a lot of money. He sells as many as he is willing to produce each year. As becoming TF is 100% about genetics why have you people not gotten him here to help you? His name is Joe Latshaw. By the way, he tests queens every year that are supposed to be mite resistant. The man should be a gold mine of information for you if you could get him to talk to you. Or, is he too evil to talk to because he treats? Or because he is commercial?


I wonder why don´t you mention Adam Finkelstein? Because he is not PhD?

- treatment free commercial beekeeper
- queens from $25 , breeders $200

From their website:
"Adam has a broad background in Agriculture and the Biological sciences"
To produce Varroa mite resistant bees that are robust survivors; to select for high build-up potential, superior honey production, over-Wintering ability, and gentleness. To provide hardy and productive breeding stock to our customers; to help them to produce mite resistant bees. We are committed to managing all our colonies without any mite treatments.
"We've chosen to leverage an evaluation/testing strategy where we use artificial insemination/instrumental insemination to control matings, making carefully calculated crosses with proven lines, while testing the outcome of experimental crosses. This results in the maintenance of our breeding population and assures new genetic expression potential."
"We received a SARE farmer grant from the USDA to research ways to select queen bees for mite resistance. We tested a method for mite resistance selection developed by Erickson, E.H., et al.. Our goal was to use the Alcohol Wash Assay and the Freeze Killed Brood Assay together in a selection program, comparing two different honey bee lines. We hoped to show that the tests helped indicate candidate queens suitable for breeding mite resistance. We ran into some snags with weather and stock suitability, eventually only testing using the AWA. Complete information on our grant: SARE Grant FNE08-631"


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Juhani Lunden said:


> I wonder why don´t you mention Adam Finkelstein? Because he is not PhD?"


Or why did I not mention a half dozen others either? Degree had nothing to do with it. One of the smartest people I ever knew, who also happened to be a good personal friend, stopped school after third grade. His salary was over twice mine when I had a PhD. I obviously was not the only one that thought him smart. Adam would be a fine choice. Why do you not get him over here regularly to talk to us? What is wrong with this group that such people are not already here routinely without being asked?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

this is not a value statement, just an observation, meant as constructive, not combative  

Well the USDA grant project was 2009... so I think a better question is why the TF forum isn't a buzz with talk of Adam's stock, or other producers that sell TF queens for that matter (Sam C, Kirk W, Tim M, etc?) 
There are a lot of people who loudly beat the TF drum, sell books, sell alternative hives, got to payed speaking engagements, teach classes, etc.. Why are there blood lines not up for sale? 

shortly after "welcome to the TF fourm" the next thing a new member is commonly told is they need to re-queen their (often puppy mill package) bees , and when their bees die they need "better" gentinicks next time...

when some one asks for a source for TF stock thet almost always get a " well so and so is near you, try them", but usalyy no 1st hand experience.. Were are the raving reviews "I got 2 queens from blank and they were awesome" ?

if indeed geneticists are the true answer and not say hive microbes or micro climates. Tracking and reviewing the performance of producer's stock should come to the forefront. There is almost nothing out there to suggest I may be better buying queens from X vs Y and what there is is so subjective to be all but useless. I want to know X queens fail in my ecoregion (not hardness zone) and Ks do well

The problem is a few hobbyist arn't going to get that done, identifying and fixing traits is not going to happen by axadent, and tracking results country wide(or world wide) is a no small undertaking, your talking a Brother Adam level of dedication.. In the modern era, that's going to take either a well funded university program, or some one with some major skin in the game.

but that kinda of person gets drummed out of here, there are zealots on both sides, the middle ground needs to push back against both if we want to see progress 

Heck... if randy olver showed up here under an unknown screen name to talk about how to select and breed for mite resistance I would put $$ on a few attacking him as a "Pro-treatment overlord", and the group will be lesser for it


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Richard Cryberg said:


> Or why did I not mention a half dozen others either?


Who are they?


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I'm guessing they are too busy to interact with the motley crew

There seems to be inverse correlation between how many bees a keeper has and how long their posts are.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Or, is he too evil to talk to because he treats? 

I like Joe. I certainly don't think he is evil nor that people who treat are evil. And I'm glad to see him and other people working towards the goal of Varroa resistant bees. But trying to breed treatment free bees while treating is like trying to breed race horses that you never race...

"The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody has decided not to see."--Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

> The problem is a few hobbyist arn't going to get that done


And many apparently don't need to, which is why I'm guessing the call to arms in regard to help sort out the minutiae of such detailed work hasn't happened. Perhaps the question shouldn't be what's wrong with the group, but what's right with it. I see many good examples of success without the need for a degree in genetics. I am thoroughly impressed with guys like Joe and Adam. I've read Juhani's journal over twice just because it's a fascinating chronicle from a queen breeding pro. However, I've not had to utilize anything close to this level of expertise in order to be successfully TF, and I'm certainly not alone in the matter.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

msl said:


> there are zealots on both sides, the middle ground needs to push back against both if we want to see progress


msl,

I like your post as I think you've raised many valid points. I truly feel that middle ground is required to move forward, but that's not an area that gets much traction in this forum, and is one of the reasons I don't spend too much time here. I believe that you must leverage the best genetics you have available, very selectively bring in new promising genetics, and then objectively evaluate various crosses. Keep lots of records. Most beekeepers with only few hives and a few years (<3) experience will likely not be prepared to meet this challenge. I DO NOT believe in letting bees die because they acquired a pest that is easily eradicated. I believe to do otherwise is not only cruel, but a needless waste of resources. Sure the queen from such a strain needs to be replaced, but the whole colony still has much value. Perhaps this "bond" approach is exactly what's holding back TF progress? My point is: if TF beekeepers had more bees, then they could make more progress.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

msl said:


> this is not a value statement, just an observation, meant as constructive, not combative
> ................................


You are a keen observer. Your post pretty much sums up the current state of affairs.
Well said.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

msl said:


> The problem is a few hobbyist arn't going to get that done ...


"I'm givin' her all she's got, Captain!"


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Nordak said:


> And many apparently don't need to


I think you may be missing my point 
they don't need to, WE, as a whole, do... it one thing to keep TF, its another to create an new breed of bee thats stable and breeds true...hence my buckfast refrance



> I've not had to utilize anything close to this level of expertise in order to be successfully TF, and I'm certainly not alone in the matter.


 I am not saying you need a degree in genetics to keep TF, not in the least, *but that's NOT what is being dissuced*. What is being talked about is what its going to take to develop and put a stable and economical viability TF stock to the mass market
a scientific background, would be very helpful in compiling and mining the needed data, and would be helpful is surcering funding to push TF stock in the the main stream. 

Why does the concept of bringing in modern scientific methods with the intent of the mass production of stable TF stock get met with resistance?

Ie (IIRR) SP does just fine, move his stock a few miles and it doesn't work.....WHY.. what would happen if the same stock was moved 2k miles? 
flip side (IIRR) you have some Sam C blood in your hives, and it does well, WHY, were elce does it do well and were doesn't it 
Why did my VSH (locally mated daughters from a Glenn Apiaries breeder queen) stock repeatedly crash and die in 11 months while my captured swarms would push 22-23 mounts

There is a lot going on the smale scale, many of them in this sub forum, but no organized central data center, no large side by side trials and replication in different eco zone with dozens to hundreds of blood lines. 



> "I'm givin' her all she's got, Captain!"


 You and many others, hats off to you all. 
My comments were not meant to disparage the good work being done by many here and elcewere, but to highlight what the next step will take if we are going to see TF stock avibul and effective on a wide scale 



> Sure the queen from such a strain needs to be replaced, but the whole colony still has much value. Perhaps this "bond" approach is exactly what's holding back TF progress? My point is: if TF beekeepers had more bees, then they could make more progress.


The bond is not the enemy 
The bond is one way, my thought is its the easy/lazy way ... don't worry about testing, records etc... it worked for ferals, it can work for you, at a cost in bees.

the problem is you are selecting for survival traites, and may be loosing other positive traits, traits the bees don't need, but the beekeeper does. 
ie what if you had a queen that made a bunch of honey had low swarming but wasn't quite enuff mite restant to survive bond , you have now missed the chance to cross her with more resistant stock to see if you can bring up their production. 
but such work often takes II or isolated mating yards and the knowledge of what to put with what to get what and then what to breed that to and how to test/ score the results is beyond me and I assume many .. ie do you breed line A drone a to line B virgin, or line A virgin to line B drone?
so that leaves most of us breeding from our best and rolling the dice on the stud stock... and in a lot of cases what we think may be our best, may or may not be


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

> Why does the concept of bringing in modern scientific methods with the intent of the mass production of stable TF stock get met with resistance?


No resistance here. I'm all for it. 

I was using your post as a way to address Richard's concerns regarding the why on the reason no one here has reached out to the likes of knowledgeable queen breeders. Most of us from what I've gathered are beekeepers happy to raise bees that provide us with what we need. Your assumption is that hobbyists were trying for anything greater than that, if I read it correctly. As a hobbyist, as most of the people on this sub forum are, that's not why I'm doing what I'm doing. I've heard it said time and time again "a hobbyist with x amount of hives is not going to breed a resistant bee." The assumption is the hobbyist is trying to do this. I think hobbyists are just happy to have bees that survive without treatment. How they survive is still not entirely understood and appears to be, like all things beekeeping, a dynamic situation that isn't summed up with the genetic equation alone. Submitted respectfully, and apologies if I seemed to take your post out of context. Wasn't my intention.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

AstroBee said:


> msl,
> I DO NOT believe in letting bees die because they acquired a pest that is easily eradicated. I believe to do otherwise is not only cruel, but a needless waste of resources. Sure the queen from such a strain needs to be replaced, but the whole colony still has much value. Perhaps this "bond" approach is exactly what's holding back TF progress? My point is: if TF beekeepers had more bees, then they could make more progress.


Eradicated for now. But how long?

But Astro, you just speak my mind. The hard bond is holding back tf progress.
But mostly because such high losses at the beginning discourages the beekeepers.

Hard bond in europe can only be done in isolated areas like natural refuges. We hobbyists must breed better stock, our own mutt stock or descendants of purchased queens. Then spread this in your area, convince others to use this.
More and more changing to hard bond as you have more experience.
For this you need bee numbers.

Maybe not in the US where you have ferals to catch. But in europe.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

SiWolKe said:


> Eradicated for now. But how long?


Eradicated only in the sense of that hive at that moment in time. Essentially giving a new line of genetics a fighting chance to be fairly evaluated. Again, when I say evaluated, I'm not referring to 1 or even 2 years, I'm looking at 3 years without subsequent treatments and with MANY other good traits that bees need to be economically viable. Without the goal of economically viability much of this is diddling in a sandbox and patting each other on their backs.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

-AstroBee Certainly!

If I have a colony that won't survive I will split them and hopefully break the mites cycle.

If it's too lateto split, you could certainly do an oxalic acid dribble, save the hive, and requeen. You'd be much farther ahead. ---If it's worth it to you---


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

> Why does the concept of bringing in modern scientific methods with the intent of the mass production of stable TF stock get met with resistance?


MSL, I appreciate your being here and posting your comments. You are contributing significantly to thoughts about action steps forward. There is a place for left brained folks and a place for right brained folks when looking at a problem. I'm not a university or an agricultural agency. I'm just a guy with some hives doing my best to try to gather up some genetic mash that can interact with the current environment where I am and survive. I'm focusing more at the moment on survival and docility because that's what I'm doing. I just can't do too much at once. From my little experience, productivity has been selected for by beekeepers for a very long time, longer than survival with varroa, and has been easier for me to bring in relatively quickly. Not that it won't be tricky because some of the traits that make survival work and some of the traits that contribute to honey production may work against each other. We're not "just cooking hotdogs here." Hats off to you and Richard for being here.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

msl


> I am not saying you need a degree in genetics to keep TF, not in the least, *but that's NOT what is being dissuced*. What is being talked about is what its going to take to develop and put a stable and economical viability TF stock to the mass market
> a scientific background, would be very helpful in compiling and mining the needed data, and would be helpful is surcering funding to push TF stock in the the main stream.


Or maby that is what is being disscussed here. One backyard guy may not come up with the answer but one is not the only one doing it. If a bunch are doing it and have some success, then wether you have a sientist checking them or not, it will still be a success. If a bunch have success, then it happened sort of natural like and eventually will spred. It has already spred to those who are having those successes. In the end, if it is working, then the person it is working for probly doesn't care if a sientist tells him what he already knows. 

Industry wise? If the industry is having finacial success and you gave them bees that did live with out treatment but the industry knew that treating them anyway was not going to make those bees worse. The industry may treat them anyway as insurance. That is something differrent then some sientist telling them they don't have to. People will do for themselves what they think is best. I can have a sientist tell me that it is probly going to be 200 years before there is an earth quake that might destroy my house but since I can not afford to lose my house, I buy earth quake insurance anyway.


Every single person who is not treating and his bees are still living and he sells a queen is selling to the mass market. If enough do ok not treating, that many more will be on the market. The pendulum may swing naturaly at some point. If more views change then it may swing faster. 

Other comments in this thread that say don't let the resources die but just give them a new queen. If you are raising bees that are living with mites then you really don't know for sure you need to save anything untill the bees are dead. Some bees die with lower mite counts then other bees die with. I understand what the soft bond is trying to do but don't see how it can really be done with out hard bond.

I am sorta like nordac in that if it is working, the why is not as important as the fact that it is working. If it works for enough people, the why won't be as important as the fact that it has spred to more people and works. In the end, It may work for all most all.

Cheers
gww

Ps Though I am not treating, I might some time. I am not on a side but more looking at what I like or see as flaws or good points of each side of the whole discussion. It is interesting.


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

gww said:


> Ps Though I am not treating, I might some time. I am not on a side but more looking at what I like or see as flaws or good points of each side of the whole discussion. It is interesting.


Amen!!! So tired of the far sides of the treat, or not treat spectrum! I suspect the middle will figure it out!


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

msl said:


> this is not a value statement, just an observation, meant as constructive, not combative
> 
> Well the USDA grant project was 2009... so I think a better question is why the TF forum isn't a buzz with talk of Adam's stock, or other producers that sell TF queens for that matter (Sam C, Kirk W, Tim M, etc?)
> There are a lot of people who loudly beat the TF drum, sell books, sell alternative hives, got to payed speaking engagements, teach classes, etc.. Why are there blood lines not up for sale?
> ...


The approaches are different. TF is bottom up, brains not needed, broad base of raising bees, proxies not used. Breeding programs are generally top down and use proxies. While brains aren't needed in TF (since proxies aren't used), brains can be used to try to figure things out. You can characterize what is happening. Breeding programs may identify useful traits, but since these are proxies, there is lots of uncertainty, at least as this point. 

But it doesn't mean these camps should dislike each other. TF bees are useful in mining new traits, and can provide useful information about the relative usefulness of different proxies. Its also the best avenue for long term genetic diversity. A broad base of breeding increases the probability of new traits. The breeding programs are developing ways of identifying traits (now moving to molecular tools) that are very useful for curious TF folks who want to type their stock, and in the process bring in specific traits missing from local populations. In the process some robustness can be built up.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

gww said:


> Other comments in this thread that say don't let the resources die but just give them a new queen. If you are raising bees that are living with mites then you really don't know for sure you need to save anything untill the bees are dead. Some bees die with lower mite counts then other bees die with. I understand what the soft bond is trying to do but don't see how it can really be done with out hard bond.




This is where experience comes in. Sure, every colony will have different thresholds for ultimate survival, but by doing enough testing and evaluation, pretty decent guidelines can be established for your bees in your location. The deal is that you got to do your homework. In my area, if I find in an August sugar roll 50 mites per 300 bees I know with nearly absolute certainty that the colony will not survive even our mild winters. In my area, there is plenty of time after August to get the colony squared away. If instead I just close up the colony and walk away, I've missed an opportunity to get another queen through the winter and evaluate her next season. To me this is an enormous loss of resources and one that I truly do not understand. Now, if that sugar roll count is in single digits, then the likelihood of survival is very high. Mite counts from 12 - 18 is more of a gray area and other factors help to make an assessment.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Astro
I don't dissagree that having a threshold and working with in it can be helpful. I also think that chance has some to do with stuff. I kept seventy chickens in a chicken house and one day after a couple of years one chicken found a place to get stuck and not be able to get out of with out help. Why didn't the chickens take turns getting stuck in that spot. So even with treatment or no treatment things can happen that are out of the ordinary that do not really reflect the truth of the matter cause we don't know everything. Although humans are resitant to some most flues, the flue still kills people every year.

I do not even claim to have any answers. I agree that the guys that get deep into it will have a better chance of doing more because they are looking harder.

I myself am lazy as a motivation for at least trying treatment free for a while. If I have any success, it won't be but by pure luck and by the willingness to try it for a bit. It will be a mirricle. 

I do think that thinking of coming up with any way that works will have to sweep through bee keeping kinda natural and by just more people doing it cause in the end people are going to do as they please and all are not going to do the same no matter what.

I did understand the having thresholds and trying to save resources for furture work with them. I also understand that you might lose bees in the hard bond method that you would not normally lose using the hard bond method due to acumulation of more then one factor than just mites and if not for the mites, those other factors may not add up to death.

I was just saying there is no real way you can set that threshold and be right. In the end you are using common sense to come up with a threshold that hopefully moves things in the right direction. And it may, or may not but of course if you have an objective you have to do something to try and get that objective.

The guys that don't treat and go hard bond have just set that threshold higher then what you propose is the proper threshold. Untill somebody is being successful it is just a guess of the path to take. For those that are successful, a new reason that they have not considered may play a bigger part then what they think caused the success.

Bees have been kept for thousands of years and yet new things are learned or at least relearned.

It is hard to think anyone is right or wrong in how they go about keeping bees.

They are right if they get honey, wax and make more bees in a way that they get more from the bees then they spend.

We all get to pick our poisen.
Cheers
gww


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

gww said:


> The guys that don't treat and go hard bond have just set that threshold higher then what you propose is the proper threshold. Untill somebody is being successful it is just a guess of the path to take. For those that are successful, a new reason that they have not considered may play a bigger part then what they think caused the success.


Not trying to argue, but I don't agree with this statement. The "hard bond" people, at least the ones I've read, do not even have the concept of thresholds in their management programs. I guess unless you call "infinity" a threshold. To me, a threshold means that once it is exceeded you would take action. I'm not even sure that "hard bond" people even assess the state of varroa in their colonies. My understanding is that they are monitoring primarily a single metric, which is survival. 

Actually, this is an area where the bond folks could actually contribute. It would be beneficial if they would rigorously monitor varroa populations and report back the levels they find in both those that survive and those that don't. 



gww said:


> So even with treatment or no treatment things can happen that are out of the ordinary that do not really reflect the truth of the matter cause we don't know everything.


Of course, as humans we're limited in what we can understand, particularly with respect to extreme (rare) events, but lets not cloud the picture with tossing out the likelihood of extreme events as the mainstream problem. When we collect information, we can analyze it to get trends, and yes statistics can be helpful in establishing confidence based upon observations. These observations then can be used to make informed decisions. Will these decisions be correct 100% of the time, no, but on average yes. Again, it is my understanding that there is nothing in the bond approach that suggests any varroa data should be used to maximize survival. If I'm wrong about this, please post references. It is my firm belief that very little is gained from "Lazy Beekeeping". Now, if you want to talk "efficient beekeeping", I'm all in. 

Again, not trying to be argumentative, just stating my views.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

nordak I agree 100% with your last post..I will swing back around to it in sec


AstroBee said:


> Without the goal of economically viability much of this is diddling in a sandbox and patting each other on their backs.


mmmm, yes and no
Speaking for myself , I would be ecstatic if I could click a link on a web site and have queens or packages shipped in that were a mabey bit swarmy, made a modest (20# or so) surplus and just didn’t die on me every year. Many places limit backyard keepers to 2 hives, so when they take losses its 50% or 100%, makes it VERY hard to bounce back and recover, this segment of the hobby is very disposed to be TF, a bee for them, is what I would like to see as a sold building block

I don’t see the big boys being TF, they ask too much of their bees, and are unlikely to accept the likely trait tradeoffs…TF stock is going to cost something, no free genticic lunch.. You don’t see TF in large AG, unless they can charge a premium price to cover the economic losses, I just don’t see that much of a market for TF pollination and honey. 



SiWolKe said:


> We hobbyists must breed better stock, our own mutt stock or descendants of purchased queens. Then spread this in your area, convince others to use this.


I am afraid this is the exact problem I see, without controls on the drone stock, we may be “diddling in a sandbox” . as Riverderwent said “We're not "just cooking hotdogs here." 
Say a ok line queen you have mates with one drone out of 15 from a line that causes it to create something great in her daughter queens…. The whole hive could be a poor performer and hopfuly doesn’t get selected out, but there is a 1 in 15 chance for that GREAT queen….so you have to raise and test 45 queens to find 3 queens that are “special”, rinse and repeat, hope poor drone stock doesn’t wash out the line or the queens you pass on to others……. Can it work, perhaps, maybe II is the answer, see my closing “what is needed”. 
In a nut shell its not what you have right now that matters, its what happens to that stock when its moved 200 miles and crossed with different drones then your area 



lharder said:


> The approaches are different. TF is bottom up, brains not needed, broad base of raising bees, proxies not used. Breeding programs are generally top down


This is WHY I believe TF is failing, the backyard keeper can’t go buy the stock they need, and don’t have the resources for the broad base. 
Once TF stock has been selected (bond, mite counts, performance records, divining rod :lookout it needs the breeding program to be propagated and matained 


TF is failing, its failing everyone from 1st year noobs with 1 hive to experienced keepers with a PHD and 30+ hives. It failed me….year one and two were fine, 100% losses year 3,4,5… I quit bee keeping for a few years, completely by accident ended up with bees again this year 
For how many success stories that make year 5 TF, how many have completely failed? 10, 20, 100? 

Its failing because (most of, but not all) sit in there small area, keep a few bees and are happy. To make the next step we need help, and its not being given or offered or in some cases excepted, and that makes me mad.

The TF groups/ gatherings are failing us as well, lots of people willing to stand up and permote it, very few willing to put their reputation the line and sell you thier queens… makes you wonder why, can’t be there isn’t a market for them

What is needed ( should be done by one of the TF orgs, and its not :kn: ) is a open and judgment free TF/low T data base so people can easily fine others in their area, and data on losses, gains, harvest, and gentinic stock information etc, an a group of people willing to produce a few queens a year and exchange and track genetics , and a few more willing to sell the gentinicks that are proving out with reviewable data on the web site on who got them and how they performed were they worked and were they didn’t…. IE “Looks like the SP line did well 2 counties over while the ankle biters failed.. lets see who has the SP line locally…click click.. oh right there, I will send them an email “
Far too many people buying “Local TF” Nucs only to have the stock crash in short order .

I wish to thank all who read for content and over looked my inaudibility to write/spell well


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Astro
I don't mind your views at all. I done admit that I do not have answers. I will say though that you want reasons and data to prove your point where I am comming more from the position that the data is not the important part but having success is. Take for example that I bought one hive from a guy that has not been treating for 20 years. Now if I am a lazy bee keeper and don't collect all you say is needed but yet my bees live then that is two people that have bees living off of treatment. 

If I then sell a nuc to someone and he is lazy enough to not treat and his bees live then sooner or later enough are going to be doing it that some of the guys who are treating are going to say why am I out here paying all these people and buying all these chemicals if I don't have to.

Then maby some sientist may go to all those hobbyest that are spread out and say hey I would like to test your bees. 

My point is that no matter why or how you get the bees that will live with out treatment. There is nothing to test untill there are bees living off treatment.

You say that hard bond is just wrong and to go ahead and treat when the threshold of mites are 50 in 300 so that you have another year to check the queen. I say if you do that then you have all that queens drones out there makeing more bees that you have to save later so you can check them. It is a visious circle.

If something is working then why is there a big need to know why and if it is working and spreading, why is there a need to document it?

Oxalic acid was probly not tested first by somebody big and then pushed down to the lower class but was probly done by somebody lowly and desperate and then when it worked passed on to another and then when so many were all ready using it anyway, it was then tested and made legal. Sometimes it just doesn't work where the big guys test it and then pass it down to the masses.

It might be quicker if it was done from the top down but most things don't come about that way.

I always heard that give a job to a lazy person and they would find the easiest way to do it.

I don't say that I am right though.
Cheers
gww

Ps mls, If you read any of my post and look at my spelling, You should feel like the spelling god. Yours are great compared to mine. I do take issue with one of you points though. You are basically saying that all the small guys should have to do this and have to do that so it can be tracked. As a small guy, I say why the heck should I go to all that trouble if I am happy with what I am getting. I would tell anyone who ask, the good or the bad of it but I would let the professionals that feel compeled to spred what I am doing to the masses. Every time TF comes up it is pointed out that hobbiest are not going to create the super bee in thier back yard. If people out there thought I had created the super bee in my back yard, I would probly not gaurd it as a trade secret and hide it from them but I would not go through the effort to prove what I know too them because my motive would be to have a little honey and some bees. The question of this is who does the extra work and for what reason.

PS PS Since I am probly the least experiance bee person on this thread, I may be arguing just for arguments sake and the fact that by my arguing I get responces that I can study further. I know that I just started and arguement may be all I have but what a way to learn, yea.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Astrobee wants the hard bond people to count mites. I can't Astro, it is simple economics. I can't count what isn't there. You aren't the first to ask. I put a board under a colony in 2014 and posted the results here on Beesource. In 48 days, I got 15 mites. I was challenged to count mites in drones last year, so I uncapped drones for about 15 minutes until I found one. It was in the 127th cell I uncapped. With about 1500 drone cells in that colony, there might have been 10 mites. I don't treat for mites at all in any way. The bees handle them. If I see a mite in a colony, I requeen right then. The reason is simple. If I see one mite, there are a bunch more and that means the hive is susceptible. I had to do away with a BWeaver queen last year because I saw a few bees with deformed wings and a couple of mites. I haven't had an issue with mites since 2010 other than that colony.



> very few willing to put their reputation the line and sell you their queens… makes you wonder why, can’t be there isn’t a market for them


 I'm not geared up to sell queens any more than SquarePeg. I still managed to sell a few queens to RayMarler in California so he could find out if they can make it in miteageddon. I hope he can tell us more about them in a few months.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Fusion_power said:


> I'm not geared up to sell queens any more than SquarePeg.


From what I've read, both you guys have spread some bees around.

It has always struck me as strange though, that there are prominant TF promoters who are always talking about queen breeding and even running courses on it, yet I've never heard of one person ever getting a queen from any of them.

For you folks who consider your bees awesome but are not "geared up" for queen raising, breeding bees is easy. Just select the breeder hive, set up a cell raiser and go.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Fusion_power said:


> I'm not geared up to sell queens any more than SquarePeg.


If you're not geared up to produce queens, then you should partner with someone who is, yes? If what you and squarepeg have are so exceptional (and I totally trust your accountings), then this is indeed very rare and needs to be studied. Perhaps the first place to contact is baton rouge bee breeding lab and provide detailed information and allow them to sample your bees. That's great you gave some to Ray Marler, and I look forward to hearing what comes out. 

I feel as though I need to clarify one thing. Never did I say that TF is not possible. My operation is very close, however, I have not been graced with many naturally resistant bees in my area. Believe me, I catch many swarms each year and have done cutouts and VERY rarely is there anything exceptional in those bees. I have captured a few swarms that have survived long term, but their other characteristics were difficult. My biggest issue with bond is that it likely works in your case because you have exceptional genetics nearby, but not everyone is so lucky. For the masses that don't have such favorable genetics, there are a lot of needlessly dead bees resulting from their trials.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Oldtimer said:


> It has always struck me as strange though, that there are prominant TF promoters who are always talking about queen breeding and even running courses on it, yet I've never heard of one person ever getting a queen from any of them.
> .


bingo... that was were I was aiming, not at the likes of you FP

however you ARE the in the scope of my "fix" why not get these geneticist spread around?
if you and 20 others like you make 10-20 queens and traded them around for evulaton, would that not help the TF movement
and if yours are as good as you say, and you have mutil state peer reviews of them They would easily be worth$50+ each if not a lot, lot more 
A five fame starter finisher and 20-24 mating nucs would cost you $200 or so to build coats style, and would be putting out $1500 or so a mouth in queens. if it works out you could by the next year be running three set ups. Seems like a good ROI to me 

Can't wait to here how RayMarler's turn out


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Fusion_power and SquarePeg,

I'm willing to play the queen exchange game. I'll make queens from my highest performing mite tolerant colonies this spring and send them to you free of charge. In return, you will do the same by sending me some of your best. We'll evaluate them for a year and report back. Are you interested? I'm not making this a general offer, just to FP & SP.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

The fact that these queens you speak of have not been distributed in any numbers has been discussed in many posts over the last 4 or 5 years. Nothing has come of it.
It appears it's easier to continuously write great things about TF queens than it is to produce some them.

Peer review? looks like no one wants to go there.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> The fact that these queens you speak of have not been distributed in any numbers


 Four beekeepers in this area have my queens purchased direct from me. Square peg has a few queens raised from one of mine. RayMarler has 2 of my queens and JRG has 3, both in California. Two other beekeepers in this area have my bees by purchasing daughter queens from one of the guys who got queens from me.

So quit grumbling. I work a day job that takes 10 or more hours a day and I run a plant business on the side which takes most of the rest of the time I have available. Producing queens is as Oldtimer said relatively easy, all it takes is time. Guess what I don't have much of?

That said, my goal this year is to produce at least 100 queens with 60 for my colonies and the remainder to be sold. Several people here on BeeSource have requested them when available. We will see how it turns out. I should have OldTimer spend the NZ winter in Alabama and produce queens.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

> So quit grumbling.


Didn't think I was grumbling. But this is the typical response when the topic comes up.

So what is that 10 queens in all divvied out? Not many by any measure.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Fusion_power said:


> I should have OldTimer spend the NZ winter in Alabama and produce queens.


Now that would be a plan!


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## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

We would have to pull every string we could to get him a visa. :lookout:

Maybe we should all head south during his summer for a class!


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> So what is that 10 queens in all divvied out? Not many by any measure.


At least 50 I raised are here local, 8 shipped to CA, 1 to squarepeg. I spoke with one local person with my bees today about noon. He has 10 colonies this year after starting with 3 from me 5 years ago. He wants to split those 10 and have at least 20 to produce honey.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

gww said:


> You say that hard bond is just wrong and to go ahead and treat when the threshold of mites are 50 in 300 so that you have another year to check the queen. I say if you do that then you have all that queens drones out there makeing more bees that you have to save later so you can check them. It is a visious circle.


I don't think my words came out as intended. When I said "get another queen through winter" I meant this to mean a new queen that got installed after you dispatched the old (high mite count) queen. Certainly no progress will be made by treating and letting the old queen to lay.

Sometimes its crystal clear in my head and not so much on the page.


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

SP,FP,OT,

It seems the only thing holding us back is time. It is the rare commodity in our society these days. The work life balance is hard to manage indeed. Having talked to FP and SP on the phone, I know we all hold down full time jobs, and have other things demanding our time. With that said, perhaps we should think about a plan, maybe use some critical thinking, interdependence, and consistency to meet our like goals.

FP and SP as noted have been very successful in their management of stock, and have shared many great ideas and processes'. Both have started sharing that stock throughout their regions. So, as MSL noted, what could be the next step?

OT, if you are serious about making a trip sometime in the future, I offer you a guest house on my farm for a free stay. My bride cooks very well and can provide nourishment for the work you will be accomplishing. I am one hour east of FP, and one hour west of SP. I have the perfect location for an isolated mating yard, surrounded on three sides by an eighty acre forest, year round water available. No managed hives in any direction for at least 14 miles. 

As for future expansion, I have a Monastery in my back yard on 850 acres. A fellow Alma Mater Boilermaker, who is a Brother there, is interested in learning the craft. 

Just fodder for thought, we can talk more off line if you wish.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

astro


> Sometimes its crystal clear in my head and not so much on the page.


Now that is something I can relate to.

Just so you know, I may be treating all my hives next year. I just want some honey and some bees around so I can mess around at home insted of going out.

This is why I understand flower planter and square peg maby not wanting to gear up and save the world by making queens but more just want to report what they are doing incase others want to try it. 

I did get interested in the arguements being used and so any thing that seems out of wac or that I need to understand more clearly, I just post and see what happens. My post are honest of my understanding at the time but my understanding is not great. I do think that most things that catch on are usually done by small people and then eventually the big guys see it and want to expand on it. 

I don't dissagree with a lot in your post and also know I definatly don't want anyone to follow me. 

I am a high school drop out and comunicating well is not going to be my strong spot.

Cheers
gww


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

msl said:


> nordak I agree 100% with your last post..I will swing back around to it in sec
> 
> mmmm, yes and no
> Speaking for myself , I would be ecstatic if I could click a link on a web site and have queens or packages shipped in that were a mabey bit swarmy, made a modest (20# or so) surplus and just didn’t die on me every year. Many places limit backyard keepers to 2 hives, so when they take losses its 50% or 100%, makes it VERY hard to bounce back and recover, this segment of the hobby is very disposed to be TF, a bee for them, is what I would like to see as a sold building block
> ...


I'm going on year 4, and it looks like I will have more bees than last year. About 2x as many. But there is considerable death. I just took apart 2 nucs yesterday that died and both had lots of mites on the bottom board. One had not so many dead bees, so probably a fall decline, while the other had a bigger cluster going into winter, with fewer mites. 

In nature, transitioning between system states is sometimes difficult. In beekeeping, transitioning between treating and TF as a number of factors needs to be overcome. You are right in that a backyard keeper will not overcome this unless 1) the keeper is working in a context of feral bees population that has worked out some of the problems, or 2) there is a network of backyard TF keepers working together. Such networks are beginning to work. Getting stock with interesting attributes is not that hard. I was able to get Saskatraz queens as a basis for my start, and it turns out the local genetics can at least survive mites. I have one hive started with a local swarm cell that looks good into her 3rd winter. She has been the best of the lot. 

Cities are an excellent place for bee clubs in collaboration with networks of TF keepers to do some very interesting work without much risk. It would help TF keepers to get on the right foot with some interesting genetics, and experienced keepers could help assess traits and bring in new ones if they are missing in the local population. If a city could be made self sufficient in bees, and bee imports more or less eliminated, then a baseline could be established for answering some questions about impacts of bee migration.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Stonefly7 said:


> SP,FP,OT,
> 
> It seems the only thing holding us back is time. It is the rare commodity in our society these days. The work life balance is hard to manage indeed. Having talked to FP and SP on the phone, I know we all hold down full time jobs, and have other things demanding our time. With that said, perhaps we should think about a plan, maybe use some critical thinking, interdependence, and consistency to meet our like goals.
> 
> ...


I would not say no if I were you OT!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Thanks Stonefly7 that is a very generous offer and you certainly make it sound like a great experience!

I would have to say no, because although I'm more or less retired I do have other business interests, family etc, leaving for the needed time period will be rather too complex for me to get done.

The idea of bringing someone else in for 3-4 months is a good one though, there are plenty people around with the skills. Not quite sure how many hives FP and SP have between them but let's say 100, if split into nucs around swarming time they could probably be parlayed into 500 or 1000 nucs, there would obviously be no honey crop that season but several cycles of queens could be produced, and at the end nucs could be recombined into hives, sold, or whatever. It would be important in my view that mating be done in the areas where the desired strain/s of bees are.

If using mini mating nucs that take 250 mls of bees to get started you can make around 40 of them from one good 2 box hive.

The financial outlay would be paying someone a few months, nuc boxes and some extra frames, and possibly sugar but that would depend. As a decent number of queens would be produced the whole thing should be self funding, the TF community and anyone else interested should be invited to make a "commitment to buy" prior to the operation starting to ensure queens are sold and any financial outlay recouped and hopefully a profit made.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Oldtimer said:


> It has always struck me as strange though, that there are prominant TF promoters who are always talking about queen breeding and even running courses on it, yet I've never heard of one person ever getting a queen from any of them.


As some have pointed out, most of us work full-time jobs that pay the mortgage, and beekeeping is a sideline endeavor. I do sell queens each year, but even the local demand far exceeds my capacity so that is who I cater to. Besides that promotes good will throughout our local community and avoids shipping queens, which is something I don't care to get into at this time. I have grand plans once I retire to focus much more on queen breeding. In the meantime, I am attempting to move my stock forward with honey production and mite tolerance as my primary objectives.

I've toyed with the idea of getting some high school kids to help with queen rearing, but I've never put that into action.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Quite understand that Astrobee and as FP pointed out he's pretty busy. I was more talking about the well known "guru" types that have what they say are resistant bees, and talk about queen breeding and have the time to run courses on it. Last I heard S Parker was unemployed and looking for work, so not everyone has no time.


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

You bet OT. The offer is open any time. Maybe someday you really will retire, but if like me, I doubt it. I always have irons in the fire. My wife reminds me I often get the cart before the horse, big plans, etc.

I know FP has stated he is where he wants to be with his station in life. SP has told me he is as far as he wants to be for now, at least until he retires. But who knows.

But I like your idea, and will scale it down to fit my own plan. I have a friend over in MS who is doing the same thing, based on 300 hives. He is treatment free and has done well with his queens. I will stay in touch with you as my plan comes into fruition.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

what an awesome thread! many thanks for kicking it off dr. cryberg.

i just got in from finishing my first round of inspections for the season and all is looking _*really*_ good coming out of winter here.

i'll be consolidating my notes, posting an update on the 'squarepeg tf experience' thread, and then getting back to this thread with my 2 cents.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> I know FP has stated he is where he wants to be with his station in life. SP has told me he is as far as he wants to be for now, at least until he retires. But who knows.


Now may be a good time to distill and redirect as the conversion has shifted to the mass production of unproven stock (I take people at there world, but 3rd party replication is key to getting to the why/ how its working, FP's plan of getting 40 out this year is a much better one)
rewind back to the idea of a bunch of the "little" TF fokes who have developed a TF, stock producing a few extra queens to distribute to people in other states and regions who would be willing to make say 5 queens/cells and pass on /trade them locally with other participants.. this would open the flow of TF geniticks widely 

Such a project could use the help of the academicians in setting up an experimental dezine and pramenters so a web site could collect usable data.... this could fast track the evaluation of bloodlines across many regions and their out-crossing with local stock.

the "dream" would to see it become like many of the heirloom plant sites were people are posting up what they have and what they want to trade for...... hey swap ya a SP for a Nordak ? and have the equivalent of a plant harness zone (ER #) were the stock is expected to do well...

I think one problem is many people "believe" that what they have is "it", that caught swam is obviously feral survivors not escapees from one of the other many back yard keepers in the area(I am sure I did)... you see it all the time when people beleave there package bees willbe just fine TF 
the outher is while is sounds easy, and would be at a local club level, it would be a major undertaking, that's going to take either a well funded university program, or some one with some major skin in the game, or realy....one of the TF groups who hold conferences and all that should take it on


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## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

following


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I'm not opposed at all to the idea, msl. I'd be more than willing to trade stock with *trusted* sources, or sell what I can, which isn't much as I just don't have near the time and resources as others have stated...that and I'm just now really starting out learning queen rearing. Lots to learn yet. I'm hoping an outyard will alleviate some of those issues, and I plan on looking for something in the near future. 

I brought this up last year as one of my first posts upon joining, that a TF queen exchange might be a good idea. I'd love to introduce fresh genetics into the mix, but one must be careful about what you're introducing. I think that's part of the fear with the idea. If someone is interested, I could probably get some queens reared in addition to what I'm already doing, but I'd need ample notice as I don't have a number of excess queens available at any time, and as I don't really have just a whole lot of control of the open mating scenario, what you get is what you get. I think the fact I'm foundationless and the bees raise as many drones as they want might sway that a little in my favor. I'm not nearly as far along in terms of trait selection as the guys in Alabama, Riverderwent and others I'm probably overlooking. I'm working on it though, and miraculously seeing some improvement on traits like production, gentleness and swarminess even though my apiary by most standards is tiny, currently at 11. I would never make a claim that my bees are mite proof, but they have worked wonders for me. Basically what I'm saying is I'm willing to share what I can, which are bees that thrive and survive without the need for treatment in my area. At the moment this is where I'm targeting because from the couple of people that have them, they are having similar experiences thus far with them. If someone further away wants to try them, let me know and I'll share.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

> As becoming TF is 100% about genetics...


i'm not sure that has been established richard. my sense is that there are likely other factors at play, i.e. nutrition, weather, brood breaking during times of dearth, colony density, exposure to migratory populations, ect.



> My point is: if TF beekeepers had more bees, then they could make more progress.


darn good point astrobee.



> "I'm givin' her all she's got, Captain!"


same here david, keep up the good work!



> SP does just fine, move his stock a few miles and it doesn't work.....WHY.. what would happen if the same stock was moved 2k miles?


i can only speak for what is going on around here msl, but i am aware of about a dozen beekeepers located in roughly a seventy mile radius that are working with the same or similar stock as me and having the same results. if my hunch is right about there being other factors involved, the getting to the 'why' you ask is going to have to do with gaining an better understanding of those factors.



> FP and SP as noted have been very successful in their management of stock, and have shared many great ideas and processes'. Both have started sharing that stock throughout their regions. So, as MSL noted, what could be the next step?


if all goes well with queenrearing this spring stonefly the hope is that you and a few others will be part of the next step. beyond that i've been discussing the possibility with the president of our county beekeeping association of trying to get our membership on board with transitioning over to resistant stock, and beyond that it's on my 'to do' list to contact our state agricultural university and get back to the folks down in baton rouge.



> If you can start with some that are surviving and propagate those rather than start with 100 colonies and then have to work with what survived. The local survivors have already taken the losses. No need for you to.


mb makes this comment in another thread. for the short term this may be the best advice of all. as some have pointed out this approach doesn't always work. on the other hand, there are more than a handful of contributors here on the forum who are finding that this can lead to building apiaries capable of being managed off treatments. 

the bees i am working with had their start after being collected from tree hives 20 years ago. fp started his line after discovering a feral swarm he caught demonstrated mite resistance. riverderwent, nordak, and several others reporting here are having success collecting and propagating survior stock.

i don't really have any good suggestions for the longer term, but i'm confident that folks like dr. latshaw, astrobee, juhani, adam, and the many others who are working hard on the issue are making progress. it will be interesting to see what randy oliver proposes for us smaller sized operators in next month's installment of his abj series "the varroa problem".

sorry for the long post, i'm just now able to generate the reply.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

As a result of Dr. Cryberg's question, which I took as a suggestion, and out of a desire not to highjack this thread, I made these posts in another thread:



Riverderwent said:


> How should a beekeeper in the south with between 10 and 100 hives select or breed bees that will survive well with no treatment, be docile, and produce a reasonable amount of honey?





Riverderwent said:


> 1. I'm grateful for the responses, even the less helpful but humorous response in the case of Eastside.
> 2. I would welcome input on this question from folks with a background in genetics, such as JSL and JRG13, regardless of whether they treat.


So Dr. Latshaw, if you're listening ...


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> i can only speak for what is going on around here msl, but i am aware of about a dozen beekeepers located in roughly a seventy mile radius that are working with the same or similar stock as me and having the same results. if my hunch is right about there being other factors involved, the getting to the 'why' you ask is going to have to do with gaining an better understanding of those factors.


SP,

If the success you (and others in your area) are having is more than purely genetics, then this indeed will make it extremely difficult to replicate. I'm not suggesting that genetics are simple, but with additional factors clouding the scene it could make it nearly impossible for sideline guys (like us) to resolve. I'm not suggesting otherwise, just noting that such complexity scales badly against us.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

AstroBee said:


> If the success you (and others in your area) are having is more than purely genetics, then this indeed will make it extremely difficult to replicate.


it's just a hunch ab, but if true i agree it makes the interpretation of results very tricky.

we definitely have feral colonies in the area residing in trees and old buildings that are confirmed to be continuously surviving year after year. it's reasonable to assume these colonies are issuing swarms every spring and that they represent a stable metapopulation.

part of what makes this possible is that much of the landscape here is hardwood forest which provides a favorable habitat to support a feral population. in addition, southern appalachia is one of the most biodiverse regions in the world so the bees have a pretty good shot at finding everything they need from a nutritional standpoint.

we have a mild winter but just enough of one that the bees shut down brooding for a couple of months. we also have a couple of months of summer dearth during which brooding is shut down again. it is my belief that these brood breaks are a big factor with respect to why the bees here are able to deal with varroa.

the bottom line is that the environment here is very bee friendly. i would go even further and say if ferals couldn't make it here they couldn't make it anywhere. 

another 'advantage' that we have in alabama has to with our 'comb law', which prohibits the bringing in of hived bees from out of state except by permit and even then it is pretty limited. this dates back to the time when afb was endemic, but in our time the same rationale gives us some protection from the large scale importation of varroa mites and their associated viruses.

i've noticed that the handful of folks we have reporting here on beesource who are having success with collecting and managing survivor stock also happen to be located near large expanses of wooded lands. i don't think this is a coincidence.

then we have the accounts from folks like randy oliver, jrg13, and others who get queens from tf operations only to find they don't pan out when transplanted to entirely different locations, or at least the desirable traits get diluted quickly with succeeding generations.

these are the considerations i have in mind when i suggest that there may be more than just genetics at play but to be very honest astrobee it's all just conjecture at this point. i do feel that at least part of my success is due to the drone contribution my queens receive from the feral survivors.

the good news is that the history of beekeeping is full of examples of successes that have been made with respect to breeding for traits and i don't see why mite resistance should be any different. we have populations of bees already demonstrating that it's possible, and i am optimistic about the valuable work that you and others are doing in that regard.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

squarepeg said:


> we have a mild winter but just enough of one that the bees shut down brooding for a couple of months. we also have a couple of months of summer dearth during which brooding is shut down again. it is my belief that these brood breaks are a big factor with respect to why the bees here are able to deal with varroa.


I suspect that our weather conditions are pretty similar, as what you describe sounds very much like what we experience (except this year!!) I'm well north of you, but near the coast, which provide a nice buffer to extreme weather. 

Interesting to hear about the comb law. I assume packages are permitted, right? If so, then there will still be some, albeit a reduced, flux of varroa into your area. I know there have been some threads on the relative virulence of varroa from different regions, but I honestly haven't followed those discussions closely. 

I think what you're doing is great and look forward to hearing how your story continues to play out.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks ab, and i hope we can do that queen exchange someday.

(oldtimer, if you change your mind about coming i'll take you bass fishing!)

yes, many commercially produced packages are brought in along with whatever genetics, pests, and pathogens they may have. 

as mentioned i am hoping to work with my local organization to see if we can wean the members off of those imported bees. the plan is to teach everyone how to make their own increases and queen them with grafts from local survivors.

the biggest advantage of the comb law is that we don't have large holding yards overwintering here, although my location is probably too far north to prepare colonies for almonds anyway. the net result is decreased opportunity for horizontal transmission. (not that i have anything against you migratory guys!)


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

If all someone wishes to make is ten or fifteen queens it can be done with very little time and no particular skills at all. You simply pull three frames of bees and brood, one of which has eggs in it, and put them in a nuc. Ten days later come back and cut out extra cells and put them in nucs pressed into the surface of one frame of bees and brood. Generally you can count on the bees making at least a half dozen queen cells and not a bit uncommon to get ten or 12. Leave a cell or two in the original nuc that built the cells. You should try and put frames in all the nucs, including the cell builder, that have some sealed honey in them. You need pollen coming in when you do this. With any luck 80% of what you started will end up with a laying queen roughly 30 days after you started the original cell builder. If you feed sugar water all those will build up to wintering strength if the cell builder was started by June 1.

If you happen to use plastic foundation I would suggest putting screen over the transplanted cells with just the end exposed so the queen has room to emerge but the bees can not get to the body of the queen cell. I have cut queen cells off plastic foundation without the screen and had them emerge just fine but I think it would likely help protect the cell as often in the process of cutting it out you expose some royal jelly in the base of the cell.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> we definitely have feral colonies in the area residing in trees and old buildings that are confirmed to be continuously surviving year after year. it's reasonable to assume these colonies are issuing swarms every spring and that they represent a stable metapopulation.
> 
> part of what makes this possible is that much of the landscape here is *hardwood forest which provides a favorable habitat to support a feral population*. in addition, southern appalachia is one of the most biodiverse regions in the world so the bees have a pretty good shot at finding everything they need from a nutritional standpoint.
> 
> ...


Very interesting analysing, it surely seems that there are many odds in favor.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

> As becoming TF is 100% about genetics


The bees' or the beekeeper's.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Riverderwent said:


> The bees' or the beekeeper's.


Th bees`and the beekeepers.

Squarepegs sucess is not all about his environment, reading BS I see many are favored.
You have to know about what to do with your environment and this is a process. 

Not all adapt to this and are sensitive to what the bees do. Many would treat in a prophylactic way even then.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Riverderwent said:


> The bees' or the beekeeper's.


Th bees`and the beekeepers.

Squarepegs sucess is not all about his environment, reading BS I see many are favored.
You have to know about what to do with your environment and this is a process. 

Not all adapt to this and are sensitive to what the bees do. Many would treat in a prophylactic way even then.


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