# FGMO and Thymol vs Oxalic Acid .,,,, WOW



## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Earlier this season I got some nature Spanish mady Thymol fro Dr. Rodriugez, thinking I would fog my new Russians like a good scout and keep the mites at bay. So much for good intentions. I got very distracted by other projects and not having good SBB equipment, I got what I deserved. In Sept I put some good SBBs under the 9 hives and started counting. Did not like the numbers so I started fogging. After several weeks of fogging and recording the numbers it got disturbing that the counts were not going down. One hive in particular had both a huge bee and mite population and I felt it was in deep trouble. I ordered a vaporizer from Vancouver and got some OA crystal.

Yesterday at 10:00 AM I treated 2 hives. Last night ( I count drops at 9:00 PM ) the counts were up for those 2 hives ... but only a bit ... but it was less than 12 hours since the vapour treatment.

But tonight WOW ... hive #5 went from a few hundred per 24 hours to over 3000. Hive 2 went from counts that had been averaging maybe 75 to 740 !!!!

I you would like to see the daily records I have stored it all on an Excel spread sheet that you can see at
http://www.hhrobertsmachinery.com/private/mites.xls

In the same directory is a photo collection of our home with one shot of the hives. The badly infested hive #5, is the middle of the row, not all are visible.
http://www.hhrobertsmachinery.com/private/maple.html
Scroll down about 10 pictures.

In my mind at this early stage with Oxalic, I would have to call FGMO a preventative. If you've got 'em bad. Use the Oxalic Acid vaporization.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
Those methods and stuffs have differencies. Look here http://bees.freesuperhost.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1136436349

Vaporazing is used when outer temperature is over 17C. 

* When you heat oxalic acid it turns to formic acid.
* You may use directly formic acid in pillows.
* Thymol works same way as formic acid. 

These are used to hit down mite population so bees are able to raise healtier winter bees. 

Oxalick trickling is used when all brood are away and bees are in winterball.

I have not needed formic acid or thymol because my mite load is very low. Trickling is enough and I do not count mites. I see load in summer from drone pupaes and in the floor when mites are dead.

Stuff versus stuff is not correct way. They work different way and you should take the method according what situation you have in your hives.

.


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Thanks for the comments Finman.
The temperatures here in the day have been about 7C and at night about 1 or 2C.

The hives I am using are polystyrene so the temperatures in the hives are up near 85F so the cluster is not formed yet.

I could not see much progress with the fogging, of thymol, even treating every 4 days so after consulting with Dr Rodruigez we went to 4 days and then tried the Oxalic vapour. I can only observe that the difference was astonishing. Almost 10 times the increase in the count of mite drop. !!!

I should add that I had an instinctive aversion to gassing the bees with acid vapour. I found it hard to believe that it would not kill everything living inside. But the Canadian Dept of Agriculture, among others, has tested the proceedure and it is now the most recommended. Yesterday, about 34 hours after the treatment I could not see any change in the numbers of bodies on the landing board or in front of he hive. I was pouring rain so I did not open the hives. Hopefully some time this year it will stop raining. Can you put behives on an ark ??

The good thing about the findings with the vaporization treatment is that if you still have brood you can do repeat treatmeents to kill mits that come out on emerging brood. They are recommending one treatment per week for 3 weeks.

[ October 28, 2006, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: brent.roberts ]


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

Hi Brent. Here in Finland we have same circumtancies as you. When you have nearby winter it is not sence any more use fogging. When you use oxalic trickling it makes very good result if brood have all emerged. 

I have used mere trickling 4 years and now I hardly seen mites this summer. They are there, and I do not calculate them. I just give the trickling and I want to kill even that "last mite". So no problem next summer.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
When I first used trickling I was really afraid of killing my hives. But nothing happened. System seemed too simple to be true.

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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>In my mind at this early stage with Oxalic, I would have to call FGMO a preventative. If you've got 'em bad. Use the Oxalic Acid vaporization.

Exactly.


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## jamiev (Sep 14, 2005)

I have seriously considered Oxalic for one of my three hives which has high mite counts going into winter. This one i did not fog often(twice all summer( The other two were fogged every 7 to 14 days or so. For maintenance purposes, fogging kept the mite counts down in these hives. 


The hive with the high counts was not fogged until i saw the high counts in early september. 

I have powdered sugared, and fogged since then which dropped 60 to 100 mites per day for three days or more. It is too late for more those treatments now. I fear Oxalic may be the only answer for this hive. 

Major concern is, redisue in the wax/ honey and is it harmful to consume? I have read positive reports on this but I am still hesitant


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.

Jamie, let the hive die. So you need not be afraid.








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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Major concern is, redisue in the wax/ honey and is it harmful to consume? I have read positive reports on this but I am still hesitant

Oxalic acid is in many of your foods already. Chocolate, rhubarb, honey, etc.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
Here is quite clear information from oxalic acid in human. Over 90% are excreted via the urine.

http://www.emea.eu.int/pdfs/vet/mrls/089103en.pdf
.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
SORRY! 90% means that oxalic acid has give into venous, not digested. Read more.
.


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## jamiev (Sep 14, 2005)

Thank you to michael B and finman. I've read the european study. That information plus beekeepers with your credentials have given me more confidence to try Oxalic on that hive. Should be broodless in a week or so at which time I will trickle OA, since it seems to be easier than the vaporization method. (no equipment needed) I'll keep you informed
Jamie


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Saturday's counts have been added to the spreadsheet at the link listed above.

Today I treated the balance of the hives with Oxalic vapour, between rain squalls and wet snow.

I expected the counts to drop after such high numbers yesterday ... not so, virtually the same.
That's 6500 mites from hive #5 in 2 days.
Did every bee in there have a mite on it ???


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## denny (Aug 2, 2006)

Brent,...good work with the Oxalic acid vapour treatments. Sounds like you're knocking them down before things got too out of hand with the mite loads. I'm also having good results in using the Heilyser vaporizer. I'm planning on following up in another week or so with a 2nd treatment, and maybe a third after that.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

<6500 mites, Did every bee in there have a mite on it ???>

Seems huge, but good. Mites concentrate in last brood cells and violate badly youngest wintering bees. Winter ball will be smaller than without mites. 

We use here vaporazing too and then you need not other methods.


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Sunday's results:

Hives #1, which add a few days with counts of 0 to 3 mites dropped, suddenly went over 100 after the OA vapour treatment.

Hive #3 which add be dropping 25 to 30 in the last few days shot up to 411 !!!

The previous high count hive #5 has finally started to slow down, dropping almost 1/2 of the previous 2 days. 

Hive number 2 for some reason went back up to it's largest drop ever.

An Excel sheet of the whole sorry tale can be seen 
at http://www.hhrobertsmachinery.com/private/mites.xls


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
Brent, have you looked brood inside the hives?
.


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## Frank Shinji (Jun 10, 2006)

I understand when people say something like "FGMO is only a preventative". I wouldn't presume to assume what others have read about FGMO but based on my reading my understanding is the fogging is one part, the cords are another. The fogging and the cords work together just fine. They don't do very much apart. So if you just want to fog then fine but you're getting 30% of the effect you would get from fogging and using cords.

I totally understand why people just fog and don't cord. Fogging is easy. Those cords are a pain in the patootie to make. I think it would just be easier to OA the girls and don't bother with the FGMO if you're not going to cord. Obviously OA works with pretty instant gratification type results.

Best,

Frank


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Finman
I have looked once aobut 3 weeks ago and the brood was almost zero. Some hives had maybe 20 or 30 capped cells, most had less. When I first started the fogging I was finding a few live mites on the tray but 95% dead. About 10 or 15% were light coloured. Now they are all very dark brown.

Frank
I have the cords ready to go in but it has p*&^%$d rain here almost every day for the last 9 weeks. I didn't want to do the cords when it was cold and wet. (not sure if that was selfish preservation of me or them ... but I did transplant trees in the rain so... ) I was corresponding with Dr R and he also was encouraging me to get the cords in . He says they will help a lot thru the winter when you can't fog. 

==============

Todays counts when haywire. Most hives went way up except the original 2 that were treated with OA first. It was warm here so for the first time in weeks and the bees were out. So I am thinking the ones that flew dropped a lot of dead mites that were not counted. This experience makes me think that counting drop rates once a week or 10 days is not nearly a good enough sampling rate to know what is happening in a hive. My hive #1 had several days of counts between 0 and 10 in the last few weeks and today dropped 539 !!!! Where did they come from.

For whatever it's worth the full spread sheet mentioned above has been updated. Read it and lose confidence in your counting.

[ October 30, 2006, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: brent.roberts ]


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

> Did every bee in there have a mite on it ???

Looks that way. Those are incredible mite counts. You will probably want to plan on 3 treatments, 5 - 7 days apart, to make sure you clean them out.

I had 4 hives last year with counts like this and thought they were doomed. I did 3 OA Vapor treatments very late fall and 3 of the 4 colonies made it fine to spring. I believe the 4th would have make it also but the cluster worked itself into a corner and isolated itself from stores and they starved.

Are you seeing any signs of DWV?


( Did the visual tour of your place.... looks like a resort.







Thanks for sharing

[ November 03, 2006, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Mike Gillmore ]


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

MIke
I found only maybe a dozen deformed wings in the #5 hive, the worst one. This was also the strongest in numbers of bees, by far. Did not see it in any of the others ... that doesn't mean it wasn't there. With it getting cold I've been trying not to open the hives much. I am planning a second treatment very soon. There was virtually no brood anywhere when I started the OA. Maybe a couple dozen capped cells in the best hive. 

I'm feeding pollen and sugar. They gobbling the pollen patties and not doing much with the sugar yet. I hope to stimulate a bit of laying before it gets real cold. 

Your results are encouraging. I'm pushing to get all of them thru the winter.

Thanks for the comments. Just been here 3 years. Should have moved out of the city 30 years ago.

I've just posted tonight's counts. Half the hives are below 100, one below 50 and not one over 200. Real progress.


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Yesterday, Sunday, I treated hives number 2 and 5 a second time with the Oxalic Acid vapour. Then today the weatherman stuck his thumb up and the temperatures went up to nearly 65F. Thousands of bees went flying. There was nothing out there but they at least flew to the syrup I put out.

But the effect of the weather on the rate of drops was amazing. For example one hive was about 90 mites yesterday and it hit nearly 400 today ... and that was not a hive I treated yesterday. The total drop for all the hives was up over 110% ... more than double. The curious thing is that one of the hives that got the second treatment did not stand out at all. It only went up 40%. The other one went up 440%. Go figure.

I think the lesson to learn here is that mite counts using drop rates to a sticky board cannot be trusted on a one day count. I would guess that sugar rolls or ether rolls would not be so influenced by the weather and more accurate on any given one day count.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

Brent, you make accurate work. 

Myself, I do not calculate them. I give one trickling and that is all. In summer I cut drone combs and feed them to birds. 

To morrow we have +2C and snow one feet and it is time to give trickling.
.


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## Walt McBride (Apr 4, 2004)

Would any one care to comment on how to apply OA vapor to hives with SB, 4 hives to a pallet with 1" X 3/8" openings on landing boards with a Heilyser?
Walt


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Hi Walt
If you can't close the SBB, I would take plastic 4 mil or more, maybe even a plastic tarp, and run it around the sides of the pallet, tape to the hive above entrance, with bottom of plastic draped to the ground. Then as you do each hive, drop the tarp so you can get the vaporizer in and stuff rags in the entrance around the vaporizer wires.

Of course you want to do it when they are not flying I think.

See what others say.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Walt,

If you look toward the bottom of this link
you will see a slanted piece that you can
slide under the hives just by tilting them
back. You could slide them over the SBB.

I am putting together a half dozen this 
winter.

http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/oxalic/oxalic-1-nf.htm


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Walt
I took out the tray of the SBB and put a brick under the hive stand, and put the Heilyser evaporator on the brick. This keeps the hot stuff away from the polystyrene hives. It's a bit of fidget to get it to sit there because the electric cables are stiff in the cold weather, and like to dump the OA powder out while you set up the cables, but it works fine.
I used a simple blue tarp from the hardware store wrapped around them to seal the bottom and entrance. I proped the telescoping covers just enough that I could see when the vapours got to the top, then closed them. Takes about 30 seconds for the heat to start the vapor and about a minute after that to vapourize the whole dose (colder weather now)

======================

The most recent surprise in this whole process it what seems to be a huge effect the weather has on the drop rates. I keep posting the daily counts and I am now adding more comments about the weather and you can see huge swings in the counts.
I will never again trust a one day drop count.

[ November 09, 2006, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: brent.roberts ]


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Too soon for champange ???

Seven of the nine hives had drops of less than 10 tonight. Two of them were only 1 !

One hive is still up at 124 and I think I screwed up the first OA treatment on that one the way the numbers bounced on the second treatment.

Maybe a goose egg or two tomorrow !


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

brent this is very fine work you are doing. Thanks!

Got mine treated Saturday and finished wrapping yesterday as the snow flurries came. 

Looks like we might get a warm spell for Thanksgiving!


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

brent.roberts

>Maybe a goose egg or two tomorrow . . .

Please check/review my counts listed below (same hive):

WINTER 03/04
Nov 22  16
Nov 30  3.3 (26/8 days)
Jan 2  5 (170/34)
Feb 6  1.2 (41/35)
Mar 11  8.3 (25/3)
Apr 2  4.6 (23/5)

WINTER 04/05
Sep 20  109.5 (219/2)
Sep 27  73
Sep 30  83.3 (250/3)
Oct 1  Oxalic Acid Vapor
Oct 2  91 (182/2)
Oct 3  69
Oct 4  136
Oct 5  123
Oct 6  107
Oct 7  138
Oct 8  126
Oct 9  130
Oct 9  Oxalic Acid Vapor
Oct 10  134
Oct 11  140
Oct 12  134
Oct 13  83
Oct 16  20
Oct 22  26 (78/3)
Oct 30  42.5 (340/8)
Oct 31  64
Nov 5  100.6 (503/5)
Nov 7  73.5 (147/2)
Nov 8  52
Nov 20  71
Nov 21  41.4 (455/12)
Dec 3  29
Dec 18  19.8 (298/15)
Dec 29  7

Please note that I never attained a "goose egg", but the numbers receded as "cold weather" increased. The numbers are ALWAYS very low in cold weather.

You might want to keep the cork in the bottle till spring, and evaluate results then


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

My tracking has also made me suspect that temperature and any activity caused additional dropping. One thing of note is that I have only seen 1 live mite since the first OA treatment. It also follows that the numbers should diminish as there are fewer and fewer left to fall. How much to attribute to each affect is hard to know.

Yesterday I moved hive # 5 and the tenants became quite agitated. About a dozen even ventured outside in the cold to attack. The drop went from 10 the previous day to 19. Granted a small sample but it fits the pattern. More activity, more dropping.

I've been feeling guilty about ignoring them all summer. I need some cheer. The cork comes out at the first goose eggs. I'll cry in the beer in the spring if needed.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>The cork comes out at the first goose eggs. I'll cry in the beer in the spring if needed . . .

I like your sprit!!









When you do get a zero, maybe you should "move the hive" just to make sure
















I agree that activity is the key. Usually that is caused by warmer temps.

Hope you continue to do some counts through out winter, just so we can see whats happening.


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

As long as Buffalo keeps the 6 foot snowfalls on thier side of the lake, I'll count once in a while thru the winter. I think in 10 days it will get very uninteresting. May try one more OA treatment on the biggest ( read warmest ) hive just to see if there is a response. But from the studies Finnman has posted, it's all over but the cheering about 2-3 weeks after treating.

PS the cork came out. One hive with 0 and two hives with only 1 drop

[ November 21, 2006, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: brent.roberts ]


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Does temperature effect mite drops. Another WOW.

Last night I put a 16 watt terrarium heater in the tray in hive #4. It is the weakest hive and when I put the heater in I removed the cover. They were in a tight cluster and almost catatonic. The temp outside was about 28F. This morning I peaked in and they were active and had broken the cluster a little. Tonight they were all over inside and gobbling the pollen patties.

Then I counted the mite drop. From a cold 8 yesterday to 113 today. Other hives were up and down some because the day was a little warmer and lots went flying. And one hive got a zero for 2 days straight.

[ November 22, 2006, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: brent.roberts ]


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>one hive got a zero for 2 days straight . . .
Try the terrarium heater under this one, see if its still zero after a couple days









Once the snow starts, and daily counts get kinda "very uninteresting", you could just pull the sticky board every 15 or 30 days or so. You might find you have only a 0.5 mite count


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Well Dave W I bought out the local reptile store and put heaters in 5 more hives. Only 1, 2 and 3 have no heat. The heaters have been in for 48 hours. So I thought I would see something interesting and easy to interpret tonight. But God turned on his heater. Got up to 55F - a record. The mite drops skyrocketed. Interestingly hive # 4 which had a heater for several days now, did not skyrocket like the others with heaters. And hives 1 - 3 did not go up a much as the heated ones. 

We're going to have a few more warm days. Back to freezing and snow by next weekend. I'm thinking the drop rates will all go to near zero by then. 

We'll see.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>Interestingly hive # 4 which had a heater for several days now, did not skyrocket like the others with heaters. 

Maybe the heat for "several days" helped #4 to drop mites. Maybe #4 is clean.

OR . . . 

Maybe #4, w/ the added heat, has started raising a lot of brood and the mites are now . . . inside the capped cells, REPRODUCING!!!!

Ain't life great


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
About heaters..

I have used 15 w heaters in spring. In winter 3 W heater is good. You may see that bees have a ball they it does not disperse.

It is not winter yeat and Robert starts brood rearing. It is worse than varroa. It is fatal.

But he will se who lies.....


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

.
But he will se who LIVES, sorry again. Glass of whisky you know...
.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

Im following this discussion for a while and wondering why guys in our northern part of Europe live and die for the trickling method, especially with the high percentage (7%) of OA in syrup. Do they like high percentage during cold days??   

With half of the amount you will reach the same result but it is less danger for the bees. I use OA for many years but only one year with the liquid solution and find out, that the evaporation is much easier and less stressful for our honeybees. If necessary OA vapor in August, several times approx a week apart kills all mites outside the cells. Even a high-infested colony has a chance to get rid of enough mites to produce healthy winter bees. Those colonies would never reach fall with one trickling treatment per bee generation. (Thats my experiences)
The result on killing Varroa mites with trickling or evaporation is (IMO) the same, but it is a BIGG difference on the health of our bees.

Brent Roberts has given us an excellent example how his method works. He used a heater in a hive and bees opened the cluster, as a result the mite drop went up. Without this heater the result would be exact the same only in a longer timeframe. 

When evaporating OA and bees are already in a cluster oxalic acid reaches only the bees outside. But to survive bees always chancing there position and outside bees going with acid powder on their hairs inside the cluster to warm up. 
In the cluster is it warm and moist and OA powder turns into microscopic fine acid drops, to fine to harm our bees but in the right size to kill all mites who come in contact with it.
The dead mites cant drop down till bees open the cluster or changing their position again and bringing them to the outside of the cluster. That the only reason why Brent Roberts has such a high Varroa drop after heating up the hive. 
I would never recommend heat in hives this time of the year. 
There is a possibility that a queen starts lay eggs and when temperatures drop bees would never following their food they nee. They are tight on the brood and starve to death.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

To Axtmann

The trickling method is carefully tested in Europen Union Varroa Control Group and most beekeeprs are more than glad with that method.

The pertengage is 3,5 % NOT 7%. Syrup has 100 g water, 100 g sugar and 7,5 g acid. Total weight 200 g or 0,16 litre.

The advantage in north is that in late summer ALL BROOD HAVE EMERGED. That is main point. Mites are not under cell cap. It is easy to destroy mites. The results is far over 95% killed mites. 

August treatment is not enough. BUT the practice has showed that many use only one handling against mites and it is enough.

We have had in Finland mites 30 years. 20 years we have had cure against mites. I have cured 20 years my hives. 

What Atxman writes is not valid information. 

AS amateur Brent Roberts has made ecample but not exellent. For example our researcher in European Union group Seppo Korpela has nursed bees 45 years and is a professional univerity researcher. He has 200 hive under his nursing. He really knows what to do and he has calculated mites more than anyboby else in this country.

Trickling is thoroughly tested and it is the least harmfull to bees. If you give it during brood period it kills 50% of brood.

Read more http://bees.freesuperhost.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=english

Vaporazing works when out temperature is quite high. It means that some hive shave brood and mites inside. One beepeer just wrote that he handled hives with thymol gas and now with trickling he gets only two or ten mites.

When mitelevel is low, we need only one handling and low level does not hurt wintering bees. 

And trickling is fast and allmost free.

.


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

I am afraid that the weather man has confounded any of my efforts to see what the heaters have done to the mite drops. Today the temps hit 57F / 14C record or near record high temperatures. In the meantime with the heaters in 6 of 9 hives the mite drop has been decreasing significantly in the last few days. Both those with heaters and those without. So I think we only had a couple days when temperatures were normally cool and one heater in one hive to see that the drop rate went up. Not enough to make any significant conclusions.

Friday the normal or below temperatures are returning and I think that even with the heaters in some hives the clusters will form up to some degree and the mite drops will go to near zero.
We will see. 

The big question in my mind is, did I kill enough of the mites soon enough to allow the bees to strengthen for winter. They could be weakened and suseptable to the diseases that follow heavy mite infestations. All of this may have been too little too late...

I appreciate very much all the comments and help from everyone. I've learned a lot in the last 2 months.


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

Hi Walt, Dr Nasser says you must be brood free. How are you going to do that in So Cal? You going to the dinner on the 12th ? see you there. John


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## Walt McBride (Apr 4, 2004)

Hi John, I have been enjoying reading your posts for the last 2 months starting in the For Sale section. Sorry to see you desolve your operation. I wish I could, and truly retire. Then what would I do??
I will see you at the Dinner!
Walt


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## James Gauthier (Jul 4, 2006)

What is the recipe for using oxalic acid?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I have been over this before so I won't get too shrill about it but we treated all our bees 3 times with a 3.5% oxalic trickle in late summer with lots of brood in the hives. Our hives looked stronger this fall than they have in several years. Did it kill some brood? Perhaps. Was the net effect bad? My fall experience says probably not. I am not an expert and I won't pretend that I have done the research Finman has but I will question the statement that half of the brood is killed. Again I don't mean any disrespect I feel I have much yet to learn about Oxalic and how best to use it (or not use it). Another question that I am not sure I have ever heard discussed is that if in fact it does kill brood is it possible that killing some brood is not altogether a bad thing in that it might cause the break in the brood cycle that is almost certainly a detriment to mite reproduction.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Trickling:

http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/oxalic/oxalic-0-nf.htm


Vaporization:

http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/oxalic/oxalic-1-nf.htm


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

jlyon<I am not an expert and I won't pretend that I have done the research Finman has but I will question the statement that half of the brood is killed. >

I did not make that research. I found it from internet. http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17485001 

"The surface of the open brood area was also reduced by 17.5% after the two oxalic acid applications and stayed low for about two months. For the same period of time the open brood area in 10 control colonies increased by 34.5%. "

The drop in brood are is so big that hive is not able to get surplus honey during period when these brood will be field bees. 
.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

This research is interesting, I would like to know more.
*At what point in the season were these treatments administered (your statement that they were not able to get surplus honey suggests it must have been early)
*What was the level of varroa infestation at the beginning of treatment and at the end for both control and treated?
*What were the weather and foraging conditions during the research period?
*How did the hives fare in the months after this 60 day period? 
I would submit this hypothetical question as relates to this final point: If there is in fact a disruption to the brood can it also lead to a disruption in the reproductive cycle of the mites as well. Which again leads me back to the previous follow up question of how the hives and mite levels fared in the months after this 60 day period.
I think all evidence needs to be considered. The published research is very interesting the experiences of beekeepers doing this on a large scale are very interesting as well and shouldn't be lightly dismissed. I think the results of both are probably heavily weighted by environmental factors on a year to year basis that are hard to quantify.


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## Finman (Nov 5, 2004)

. You may ask many kind of things, but only thing what is important that oxalic acid syrup is very harmfull to open brood. It means that you must use another varroa treatment after yield season if you want protect winter bee brood from violation of mites. There are several effective methods for late summer. 

I have seen any advice where someone tells that trickling can be used during brooding time.

Look here http://bees.freesuperhost.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1136436349

The Finnish varroa concept:
1) * The August treatments with formic acid or thymol after yield
2) * Oxalic acid trickling in late autumn.

As we say here: we have no mite problem. If someone has, it is only lack of personal knowledge.

.


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Jan 07 update
It's been almost a month (29 days) since my last count and here is the update.

The total counts for each of the 9 hives for 29 days is:
1: 13
2: 61
3: 5
4: 8
5: 28
6: 22
7: 134
8: 5
9: 6


Ignoring the screw up on hive 7, the average is way under 1 mite per hive per day. The tratment was a success without a doubt.

So it looks like I screwed up with the OA treatment on hive 7, but other than that it looks like things are pretty much under control. The weather has been record setting high temps. Jan 1st was +9C or 48F. No snow. Some of the hives have emptied the top feeders, some don't seem to have touched it.
All hives have some activity. I could see bees through the feed and vent holes.
It feels like spring here, but we still have a long way to go before the real thing and to see if enough mites got killed soon enough.
Thanks to all for the comments and help over the last few months.
Best wishes for health and healthy hives.

PS: Jan 8 Checked hive seven tonight. Only 1 might on the board. 

PSS: Forecast is for 13C / 55F here on Saturday. They will be out looking for food.

[ January 03, 2007, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: brent.roberts ]


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## brent.roberts (Dec 31, 2005)

Update March 9 /07 I opened all hives and found active bees in all 9. Some had big strong looking population and others looked week and without stores. I added some Feed bee and HFCS. When it gets a bit warmer I dig in deeper into each to see how strong each hive really is and compare that to the mite kills last fall. Still got ice and snow on the ground here.


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