# Layens, Lazutin and Double Deep Lang... oh my



## bjorn

I just finished Lazutin's book and am currently reading Layen's book. Of course that has triggered impulsive surfing of Horizontal Hives and misc other deep box videos. I'm struck with a couple questions that some of you may be able to answer. First some context... I have all medium lang equipment. I am located in northern IL... 6 miles from the WI border so it gets pretty cold here for months on end. My bees never winter particularly well. I am stationary, so transporting hives is not a concern. 

I'd like to repurpose as much equipment as possible. I have of course found the plans for double deep lang long frames... ie 2 deep lang frames connected. In my case, that would equate to 3 medium langs. It's doable, but my concern is the amount of wood between usable wax. Is it enough to be concerned with? It seems that continuous wax long frames would be better from a winter cluster movement standpoint. 

I have a lot of drawn frames, so I'm aiming toward giving them as much as possible. I've seen plans for a jig to install 2 medium langs sideways in a Layen's hive with a shim on top. Is this only intended to be temporary so brood could be hatched out once a transfer is made? I assume the drawn med frames could not be left for the bees use afterward because the angle of the cells is 90 degrees off what it would be naturally. So that would leave the option of a medium lang on top with an open "extension" attached which would provide a continuous area for brood. Again, will this likely be an issue for the cluster to access the honey in the medium portion of the frame in winter?

It seems the simplest would be an insulated lang width deep box. That way, my equipment would all fit. But there seems to be endless debate on whether this is too much area, aka too wide, for the bees to effectively heat, even with division boards. The layen's widths seems much more accepted and has an extractor available to accept it. The extra deep lang does not that I've seen. I currently own an extractor to fit medium frames, so that has me leaning toward somehow utilizing (screwing together) some of the frames I already have.

I realize this has been much debated, but I'm looking for more recent feedback from some of you who posted about it several years ago. It seems most of the posts on the subject here are older. How have the various techniques worked in colder climates? Any advise, insight will be much appreciated. Thank you in advance.


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## crofter

I toyed with the idea but dont want to deal with a foot deep frame a foot and half wide. I think the food deep or so is a benefit for wintering but the lang width is a negative. Ability to extract and availabilty frames and foundatin for Langs makes interesting Gregs idea of joining two of them together on their long sides then rotating them to high and narrow but capable of being easily split to extract. I was thinking it possible to then turn them crosswise in a lang box. I have decided to try Dadant depth lang frames instead but would review the other plans if I get bored and want to try something different.


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## Gray Goose

Hi Bjorn,

the wood of the frame inbetween is not an issue IMO
You have the answer "Insulation" IMO very over looked item.

google Buckeye Hive this was used long ago.
I have put together some this winter. 8F Lang hives.
















I made the inside side 1 5/8 longer, then the outside end 1 5/8 longer as well, added more wood until I had a double wall hive.
Made 5 hives of D+D+M+M if survival is the primary concern, I would stay with the chimney set up of the lang over the long hive, and try to come up with something with some R value. the standard 3/4 pine is like 1.3 per inch so around 1 R for the normal hive. with 1.5 inch foam and the second wall you can get close to 9 or 10. IMO you will have better over winter survival with Insulation. could even bond 2 inch to your hives for a test before doing the investment of time and funds. As well I plan to use normal supers so you can still use the mediums you now have a supers. My Northern Mich hives winter better in 8 frame, could be a random data point but it works, for me.

good luck

GG


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## crofter

GG, your home harvested and sawn pine is "wooden eye candy,"


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> I've seen plans for a jig to install 2 medium langs sideways in a Layen's hive with a shim on top. Is this only intended to be temporary so brood could be hatched out once a transfer is made?


Like I said many times - why bother with that temp, voodoo shim?
Just make your hive just a tad deeper and make that compatibility permanent and done with it.
It is really that simple.



bjorn said:


> I assume the drawn med frames could not be left for the bees use afterward because the angle of the cells is 90 degrees off what it would be naturally....


Again, I said many times - bees don't care.
Turn the cells 90 degrees and be done with it - bees will totally use the cells.
That simple it is.

Dr. Leo does all bunch of unnecessary moves just to stay true to his dimensions as if that magic Layens format is irreplaceable. Not so.

Build to this size (attached) and be done with it.


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## crofter

That will fit nicely placed crosswise in 10 frame deep Lang hive bodies stacked 2 high.


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## GregB

crofter said:


> That will fit nicely placed crosswise in 10 frame deep Lang hive bodies stacked 2 high.


Exactly.
This is how my hybrids setup - from repurposed 10 frame Langs - though 3 medium boxes - perfect fit for 12 frames crosswise.


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## bjorn

Thanks all. I was in my shop studying the frames yesterday thinking it sure would be a lot easier to just attach 2 of the mediums together. 



GregV said:


> Exactly.
> This is how my hybrids setup - from repurposed 10 frame Langs - though 3 medium boxes - perfect fit for 12 frames crosswise.


 So you cut frame rests on the long side of the box or attach wood on the inside of the long side to adjust for proper bee space? Then 6 of your "double" frames fit in next to each other? I think I'm visualizing it properly.


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## bjorn

Greg V do you have a link to any posts on your hybrid? Again assuming, but you run deep langs (3 mediums to be precise) for the brood chamber then super on top of that? Or is the medium box up top in the pics just to accommodate a feeder?


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## Gray Goose

crofter said:


> GG, your home harvested and sawn pine is "wooden eye candy,"


it is fun to play when the wood is free and i am not sure I can use it all. not free totally the saw bill was $1300
I have 10,000 feet of it, 75% is 7 inch and 10 inch boards, nicely sized to 6 5/8 and 9 5/8
i had 7 piles and am 3/4 thru the first one so will need to find an inside place this or next fall.
I was planning to replace all my old gear for the last time in my lifetime. then coast..

GG


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## crofter

GregV said:


> Exactly.
> This is how my hybrids setup - from repurposed 10 frame Langs - though 3 medium boxes - perfect fit for 12 frames crosswise.


Yep, three mediums stacked, not two deeps; I was forgetting about the heavy master topbar.


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> Greg V do you have a link to any posts on your hybrid? Again assuming, but you run deep langs (3 mediums to be precise) for the brood chamber then super on top of that? Or is the medium box up top in the pics just to accommodate a feeder?


Here you go - assorted details just for you:








Hybrid modified Layens.


OK, looks like I never created a unified topic on making the hybrid Layens hives. Here goes then - will put together few notes and pictures on what I know and what I have done. Because I had many unused Lang boxes, I repurposed them to make hybrid Layens. The idea came from this blueprint, but...




www.beesource.com


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## Gray Goose

here is another person with all mediums may be worth the read.

GG


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## bjorn

Thanks. These have given me some great ideas.


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## Gray Goose

I've had bees since "78" every year I try something different.
keep looking at ways to better your Apiary, I enjoy the journey.

I also am a proponent of the "where" not every place is a good bee place. I have bees in 6 places, farthest is 4 hours away. The insulated hives go in the UP a 7th place. EVERY yard has good and bad features. If you have a friend or relative with a farm or such type property, keeping ants, mice and bears, into account try other places for your bees as well.

good luck

GG


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## bjorn

Thanks, I've expanded to multiple locations for swarm traps but not actual hives. I have to trap more before I can expand in that manner. But I agree, the journey is fun part.


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## bjorn

I have an abundance of old wooden arrows... I would think these would be sufficient to serve as topbars. I'm all about trying to repurpose whatever I can. Thoughts?


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> Thoughts?


Should work but I would add a couple of zip to secure your "top bar" to the frames.
Keep in mind - right now the weak spots are those ears you drilled through and they might give under load.
The ears alone will hold the potentially high weight.
Well, the 1/2" hole in each ear is pretty big and weakens it.
Instead, I use metal rods cut from the political signs for the same function (smaller hole - less damage to the ear - strong enough)


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## bjorn

I wanted to use those sign stands, but got tired of tripping on them and scrapped them. The hole is 5/16, but definitely weakens the ear.


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## bjorn

9 ga wire seems like it will do the trick with much smaller holes in the ears.


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## Tigger19687

Why not just put the frames in on their own? With the bottom bumps still there, they are like feet. Top bumps give you a quick grip and then you can use them between new layens frames. Then if you want to get rid of them, you can cut the zipties, put it in a nuc and sell it or keep it, which ever


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## ursa_minor

Does the 9 gauge wire hold a full frame without bending?

This year I am transitioning to these type of frames rather than the standard Layens I built. I am going to use the layens in the brood nest as I don't want to scrap them, but I like the ease of obtaining the standard langs and so I hope to use this configuration in the honey area. I was going to attach a top bar with screws but I do have 9 gauge wire as well and this looks much simpler.


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## bjorn

I can't say for sure since I am just now converting them. GregV is using political sign wire stands, which I'm guessing is pretty close to the same gauge. I doubt they would be heavy enough to bend the 9 gauge, even full of honey.


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## bjorn

Tigger19687 said:


> Why not just put the frames in on their own? With the bottom bumps still there, they are like feet. Top bumps give you a quick grip and then you can use them between new layens frames. Then if you want to get rid of them, you can cut the zipties, put it in a nuc and sell it or keep it, which ever


I'm likely going to stay with these frames for awhile. I'd like to maintain some space below the frames, hence the hangers. It should be easy enough to pull the wire out and cut the zip ties as you suggest. Even with an small hole in the ear, they should still hold if placed in standard lang box again.


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## bjorn

I'm giving GregV's method a try. Joined these together with biscuits. Now for the new frame rests and to build out the inside a bit.


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## bjorn

ursa_minor said:


> Does the 9 gauge wire hold a full frame without bending?
> 
> This year I am transitioning to these type of frames rather than the standard Layens I built. I am going to use the layens in the brood nest as I don't want to scrap them, but I like the ease of obtaining the standard langs and so I hope to use this configuration in the honey area. I was going to attach a top bar with screws but I do have 9 gauge wire as well and this looks much simpler.


I'm basically planning to do the same thing, just in the other order. I have an abundance of drawn mediums. As I cycle old black combs out, I'll open up the middle of these attached frames by cutting off the original bottom bar of the Lang medium. Then I'll screw on a proper top bar/bottom bar splice of some sort and use them for brood, letting them draw their own fresh comb. I think the dowels(arrows) I was going to use to hang them will instead be used for cross support in the middle of these open frames.


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## GregB

Just today I was cleaning out a dead out (harvested lots of honey!)
This is a hybrid hive, btw.

Here is an ad-hoc frame that was in there along with the normal frames.
I need more of these made up to just have them on-hand and ready.
Otherwise, I run out of good frames and start using just the top bars; then the combs full of honey often break off.
It is much better to just have zipped up frames as a backup.


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> I doubt they would be heavy enough to bend the 9 gauge, even full of honey.


This political sign wire works fine (whatever the gage is).
Those 1" stubs sticking out are very hard to bend - give a try and see.


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> I'm giving GregV's method a try. Joined these together with biscuits. *Now for the new frame rests and to build out the inside a bit.*


Here is one experimental hybrid hive where I tried to create bio-walls/insulation (so to use the volume below the frame rests).
Used 1/2" screen to hold in place wood shavings (added some slum-gum blotches too).
This is how it looks like.


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## bjorn

I realize I'm going about this the hard way, but I had the boxes to sacrifice. Spliced with biscuits, then glued and attached boxes to each other with pocket screws. I'm debating whether to insulate the outside as well. I have lots of foam I used to wrap these when I wintered as triple med langs. I sized them to hold 2 supers up top side by side should I ever put 2 colonies in it.


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> View attachment 62310
> 
> I realize I'm going about this the hard way, but I had the boxes to sacrifice. Spliced with biscuits, then glued and attached boxes to each other with pocket screws. I'm debating whether to insulate the outside as well. I have lots of foam I used to wrap these when I wintered as triple med langs. I sized them to hold 2 supers up top side by side should I ever put 2 colonies in it.


Wow, this is a nice coffin.

Anyway, I'd consider having the box as-is, to at list maintain some sort of portability and minimize the weight and bulk.
Just provision some external insulation for the front and back in winter (foam slabs what not).
The side insulation will be trivial by dummy board and the air pockets.


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## bjorn

I added an extension on the bottom to provide a bit more empty space under the frames. I know for wintering I'll want insulated follower boards approximately the same depth as the frames to create the box within a box. But, for spring, do I want at least one follower board full length to close off the huge amount of empty space? Or will they not bother it as long as I keep up with growth. I plan to give them a handful of frames to start and add frames as they grow.


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> But, for spring, do I want at least one follower board full length to close off the huge amount of empty space?


Don't be concerned with completely closing off the excess space.
It achieves nothing (UNLESS you run two colonies on the opposite ends).
Just 1-2 inch access opening at the bottom will not mess up the thermodynamics of the active hive (but yet gives you all kinds of benefits).


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## bjorn

Your lower entrance is up from the bottom by a couple inches as well?


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> Your lower entrance is up from the bottom by a couple inches as well?


Inch or two - yes.
I don't really know why, just copied that from L. Sharashkin.


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## bjorn

As I recall he felt it reduced the likelyhood of the entrance becoming clogged with dead bees in winter. I think there was some kind of claim that it reduced mites because the mites would fall to the bottom board and the bees would not be crawling amonst them if the entrance was higher. Not sure I'm buying that part. 

I can see why you went to your hybrids... this thing is getting heavier by the day. I'm building one of each to compare.


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> As I recall he felt it reduced the likelyhood of the entrance becoming clogged with dead bees in winter. I think there was some kind of claim that it reduced mites because the mites would fall to the bottom board and the bees would not be crawling amonst them if the entrance was higher. Not sure I'm buying that part.
> 
> I can see why you went to your hybrids... this thing is getting heavier by the day. I'm building one of each to compare.


True - I now remember!
Elevation above the floor helps with the entrance clogging.
But later I added the upper entrances - even better and multi-function way.

As far as mites falling, etc - lots of BS.
You have to have major trends going for you - e.g. predominant local genetics and importation level.
These alone can make it or break it - the true elephant in the room.
All else is busy, make-feel-good, low-impact noise and/or diversions.

Hybrids, while lighter are also tighter.
Also the core unit (the most bottom box) is still pretty big/heavy - it is three medium boxes plus extra stuff attached to them.

IF you can afford a "set-it-and-forget-it" model - the large hive is just so easy to work with, that along is huge. But a bear to move.

So for me, it seems the best way forward is the combination of
1) true long hives, which you never have to move and/or
2) compact vertical hives made to be mobile/multi-functional from the start and with small and ergonomic incremental units
And both #1 and #2 must be compatible.


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## bjorn

Have you found that it matters which side the entrance is on? In my situation, my rather permanent stands would have the long hive running west to east with the long wall facing south. So I plan to drill the entrances on that long wall. This puts the entrances parallel with the comb, like in a lang. 
When I drill, I'll be going thru my 1/2" of poly foam. Will the bees chew up this layer of insulation or just cover it with propolis? I could drill bigger and slide a pipe thru, say 1/2 or 3/4 pvc. Thoughts?


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> Will the bees chew up this layer of insulation or just cover it with propolis? I could drill bigger and slide a pipe thru, say 1/2 or 3/4 pvc. Thoughts?


Don't over-analyze.
They will chew a little and propolise the rest.
Bees are not termites.
If this bothers you, then do the pipe.
Or you can plug the hole with wax/propolis/slumgum - then melt it with a heat gun and seal your foam.
Or insert a small round piece of metal screen to protect your foam if concerned (and optionally melt wax/propolis/slumgum into it.
Really, none of these are critical but rather just non-essential twicking about.


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> This puts the entrances parallel with the comb, like in a lang.


Immediately at the entrance - yes.
But because you have all the space, you can shift your nest away from the entrance too (if it makes sense to do so). Or don't.
You have all this space - use it!!!!
What is to stop you?


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## bjorn

Is there a hole in the division board if you shift it toward the center or would they simply go below it and out the entrance?


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> Is there a hole in the division board if you shift it toward the center or would they simply go below it and out the entrance?


My follower boards have small "entrances" in them too - better during the cold spring to not be forcing the bees down. And of course they can always go down and under anytime.


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## bjorn

I'm getting ready to drill my entrances. It looks like your lower entrance is 1 inch or so and the uppers 1/2". Is that approximately what you are using? Any changes to the diameter or positioning you would make?


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> I'm getting ready to drill my entrances. It looks like your lower entrance is 1 inch or so and the uppers 1/2". Is that approximately what you are using? Any changes to the diameter or positioning you would make?


1/2" - no exceptions.
These are really for the cold season passage only - no need for anything bigger.
During the warm season they will go down/under as much as they want.


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## bjorn

I was referring to the main box entrances. The lower one is larger(around 1") and the uppers 1/2", correct?


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## bjorn

Maybe I have too much time on my hands, but I made these out of old canning lids.


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> I was referring to the main box entrances. The lower one is larger(around 1") and the uppers 1/2", correct?


OH!
Got it.
The last two hybrids and the vertical CVH I did 1/2" upper and 1" the bottom (see pic).
Prior to that - everything I did was 1/2", no exceptions (another pic).

Any difference?
During the summer time the larger holes seem preferable - less congestion.
But during the winter time I am nervous about some shrew squeezing thru the larger hole and destroying the bees (only 1/2" mesh to stop it).
After several seasons I feel strongly standard 1/2" holes work great to stop mammal and insect robbers while not impending much the resident bees.
Yet again people around me keep crying about the hives lost to mice/shrews
Well, they don't want to listen to me - it is their own problem then.


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## bjorn

GregV said:


> OH!
> Got it.
> The last two hybrids and the vertical CVH I did 1/2" upper and 1" the bottom (see pic).
> Prior to that - everything I did was 1/2", no exceptions (another pic).
> 
> Any difference?
> During the summer time the larger holes seem preferable - less congestion.
> But during the winter time I am nervous about some shrew squeezing thru the larger hole and destroying the bees (only 1/2" mesh to stop it).
> After several seasons I feel strongly standard 1/2" holes work great to stop mammal and insect robbers while not impending much the resident bees.
> Yet again people around me keep crying about the hives lost to mice/shrews
> Well, they don't want to listen to me - it is their own problem then.


So you have switched to multiple 1/2" holes for the lower entrance or are some of yours using just one 1/2" hole for the lower?

Also, are you placing burlap or a soft cover between your main hive box and the utility box above? Or do you simply allow the bees free run of that space?


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> So you have switched to multiple 1/2" holes for the lower entrance or are some of yours using just one 1/2" hole for the lower?
> 
> Also, are you placing burlap or a soft cover between your main hive box and the utility box above? Or do you simply allow the bees free run of that space?


In fact, I started the "multiple 1/2" holes for the lower entrance".
Only later I started adding additional 2-3 holes.
I have a whole thread on that subject experiment alone - did you not read? Well, you should. 

You always want to define envelope of your nest - not just let the bees run around willy-nilly.
I separate utility space by a soft cover.
If I want bees in that space (like for drying some combs) - then I fold one corner to let the bees up.


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## bjorn

I'm looking for it but not having much luck. Do you have a link by chance?


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> I'm looking for it but not having much luck. Do you have a link by chance?


Here:








Testing top vs. bottom entrances.


OK, thanks to a freshly caught swarm, I finally decided to do the experiment long wanted. Pretty strong swarm - 5-7 pounds (2-3 kilos) of bees. Testing which entrance will these bees like better - top or bottom or something in between. The hive is my own portable Ukrainian, 60 liter box (10...




www.beesource.com


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## bjorn

Very interesting post. Do you always use the hallway or are there times in the summer that the entrance leads directly into the brood nest? I assume the entrance holes are at frame level, not below judging by the pics.


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> Very interesting post. *Do you always use the hallway or are there times in the summer that the entrance leads directly into the brood nest?* I assume the entrance holes are at frame level, not below judging by the pics.


The entrances and the frames are NOT particularly coordinated.
Just plus/minus an inch - good enough.
No need to over-analyze - there is nothing to see there.

This hallway is not needed in summer and is waste of much needed volume (AND bees may build into it if left empty - bad idea).

Again, it is rather a cold-season gimmick when you have tons of unused space while keeping the nest tight - and so one can use that space for the "hallway" (a way to insulate/ventilate the nest, really).
In fact, due to the usage of the "hallways" (or call them air-pockets as pictured), this entire cry of moisture and ventilation in the hives is irrelevant and moot.
Why people don't use them routinely when they can is beyond me.


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## bjorn

Have you tried using a lang inner cover with the notched opening screened as the top vent? It seems like it would be a very simple means of ventilation if the notch was placed at the opposite end as the main entrance.


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> Have you tried using a lang inner cover with the notched opening screened as the top vent?


No
These inner covers are not working too well in long hives in general.
The entire premise of a hard inner cover is based on the fixed perimeter of of your nest - well, the perimeter of the long hive nest is flexible (could be 5 frames in winter and 25 frames in summer).

Just use soft cover OR use planks.
Just try what hundreds of thousands of people have already been doing successfully and forever.


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## bjorn

GregV said:


> Just use soft cover OR use planks.
> Just try what hundreds of thousands of people have already been doing successfully and forever.


I wish I understood the language, but I get the idea. I do like the soft cover method. Would feed bags work? She appears to have a tarp-like material with a blanket on top for insulation. 

Also, at what point do you pull the dummy board in the spring? I understand that it is for creating the box within a box... just wondering about when you remove them? (certain temp? when you need to start adding frames?)


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> I wish I understood the language, but I get the idea. I do like the soft cover method. Would feed bags work? She appears to have a tarp-like material with a blanket on top for insulation.
> 
> Also, at what point do you pull the dummy board in the spring? I understand that it is for creating the box within a box... just wondering about when you remove them? (certain temp? when you need to start adding frames?)


Feed bags are fine; they commonly use sugar bags.

Dummy board(s) are never pulled - until that is you run out space, then pull them (or it) whenever that happens.

In fact, you want to run the nest *as tight as possible.*
Let me repeat - nest as tight as possible.
So, if you have brood on 3 frames in spring, then you box them in on 4 frames.
If they brood on 4 frames - box them on 5 frames.
The point is help them maintain the temps inside the "box" as optimal as possible while they have small spring cluster.

You only maintain minimal stores inside the "box" and you want to be sure all frames are covered with bees inside the "box".
Set all your stores outside the "box" (behind the follower boards) - if they need food, they go and fetch it from behind the follower board as needed.


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## bjorn

GregV said:


> This hallway is not needed in summer and is waste of much needed volume (AND bees may build into it if left empty - bad idea).





GregV said:


> Dummy board(s) are never pulled - until that is you run out space, then pull them (or it) whenever that happens.


I'm confused, these seem contradictory. I get that you want the brood nest as tight as possible. But how can there be no hallway if there are always dummy boards? Or is it simply a matter of pulling them if/when they run out of all other available space?


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## bjorn

Or were you referring strictly to spring buildup?


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## GregB

OK, what we see above is early spring (cold and unstable in both WI and IL as you know).
Box in a box.

Now, say we are in May mode and it is finally stable warm weather AND the colony has grown some.

move the nest to the entrance (now you want increased ventilation)
start building few new combs (insert blanks)
one of the dummy board is removed
you still keep the remaining stores from the last year* outside the nest *(behind the dummy board) so the old honey gets used up - they will prefer cleaning up the stuff outside the nest and bring inside as needed
you now have enough workforce to patrol the empty space - might as well clean up some old combs AND/OR use the empty space as safe storage


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## GregB

Something like this in June


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## GregB

And something like this in July, for the main flow.
Depending how large your hive is, you may fill it up with the frames completely and remove the dummy board.


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## bjorn

That makes perfect sense. Thank you for that excellent explanation. 
In the hybrids the manipulation would be the same but once the main box is full you expand up, correct?


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## ursa_minor

Now, I understand, my mistake this winter was to keep the nest in front of the hive entrance and I put 2" styrofoam each side of the nest but it was wrapped in plastic (to keep the bees from chewing it) and fit very snug as I was trying to keep the bees from going around it and into the empty space. I had two hives die with very soggy wet bees. I thought that there would be enough ventilation out the quilt box at the top but it had a sugar board underneath and I am assuming that although it absorbed some moisture, the fact that upper frame bars showed excessive moisture build up and the quilt box had none, tells me that there was not enough ventilation. 

Of course varroa could be a factor, or the fact that I had a shrew inside the boxes could also be why they died. They lived thru the two weeks of -35C to -40C in Feb. because they were out the first warm day after that. The next cold snap of -25C they were gone, I looked as soon as they went silent and the cluster was soggy.

I rebuilt one of my 48" long hives to 15 frames and the ability to accept lang supers if I wish. It is more like the blue one Greg V has in his avatar. I made original long layers too shallow, I did not have enough room under the lid to put a feeding box, proper quilt box, and insulation. Gregs plan of the utility box on top is better than the regular plan, for my cold zone. 

When I get my nuc this spring, can I put it in a lang. super placed in the utility box above the layens frames? Will the bees move down into the layens frames if I condense the bees in the lang by removing the blank drawn comb frame and the honey filled frame and putting my layens frames, with drawn comb in underneath?


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> That makes perfect sense. Thank you for that excellent explanation.
> In the hybrids the manipulation would be the same but once the main box is full you expand up, correct?


Correct.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> my mistake this winter was to keep the nest in front of the hive entrance


Nothing wrong with this approach either.
However, sounds like you insulated them too tight and to the death.
Even if you use tight foam inserts, be sure to leave 2-3 inches between them and the floor for air movement.
Certainly, lots of space above frames is always an asset - loose insulation in winter; optional honey super in summer; storage space for your junk year around. Think of your own attic - it must spacious and ventilated.


----------



## ursa_minor

Greg, I have copied and saved your layens configurations if that is OK. Sometimes it is hard to re find the information when you need it.


----------



## r2t2

Greg - thanks for the information.


----------



## bjorn

Greg, as others have said, thanks... great info.
I've got this just about ready. I went with your recommendation with four 1/2" holes (after drilling a 1" hole... hence the wood plugs). The perforated aluminum should keep the critters out.(hopefully)


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> Greg, as others have said, thanks... great info.
> I've got this just about ready. I went with your recommendation with four 1/2" holes (after drilling a 1" hole... hence the wood plugs). The perforated aluminum should keep the critters out.(hopefully)


What a beauty.
This should make a great stationary rig and joy to work it.
I wish I did not have to lag my hives around.

PS: it is your call, but I would try adding brackets for mobility - makes it very easy for two people to be moving this monster; otherwise it is PITA to move;
even some of my hybrids have the brackets - just ran out of hardware the last time to make them all "bracketed".
like so:


----------



## bjorn

I've got lil brother ready for the mobile scenario. I look forward to trying them both.


----------



## GregB

Btw, about those recycled jar lids...
Do you think plastic peanut butter jar lids will work?
I got lots of those lids - thinking to try out.
The plastic may not last many seasons, but my kids eats lots of peanut butter - tons of lids.


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> The perforated aluminum should keep the critters out.(hopefully)


1/2" drilled hole should hold pretty much anyone.
People claim that mice/shrews get through the 1/2" cloth.
But I will argue that squeezing through 1/2" tunnel is much harder (not the same as 1/2" screen that you can maneuver thru).
To be sure, I have stapled 1/2" screen behind this entrance anyway (behind the wood).
Have not had a single issue over the last 5 seasons (yet people have lots of losses to mice around me - this year again!).

Heck, mite control is some PITA, but mice control should be a non-issue.
And yet!


----------



## bjorn

GregV said:


> Btw, about those recycled jar lids...
> Do you think plastic peanut butter jar lids will work?


I don't see why not... I used a small hole punch which wouldn't be able to get around the threaded part of a peanut butter lid. But, I'm sure drilled holes would work just as well. It beats buying those snazzy stamped steel discs.

I'm all for recycling whatever we can into these. I had to buy one sheet of 1/2" insulation, otherwise all stuff I scrounged.


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> I've got this just about ready.


Another thing I like when your frames are compatible to the Lang - you know that 5 frames of yours ~ 10 Lang frames ~ single 10-frame Lang box. 
Makes the accounting and comparisons easy. 
You pretty much talk the same language with Lang people and not translations are needed.


----------



## ursa_minor

I like your hives bjorn, the four 1/2' holes along the bottom look good. 

My hive was made out of 2 inch rough lumber 91/2" wide making the depth equal 2 deep langs. It makes the winter configuration easier to calculate. Two deeps is what they winter bees on up here in the north.
If I do the four 1/2" holes along the bottom like you did it should keep the shrews out pretty good. It would be hard to squeeze thru a 1/2" hole for 2 full inches into the hive. 

The jar lids are a great idea, I was contemplating a little spice jar lid that has a hinged snap cover for easy closure in case of robbing or to close off in summer and open in winter.


----------



## bjorn

GregV said:


> PS: it is your call, but I would try adding brackets for mobility - makes it very easy for two people to be moving this monster; otherwise it is PITA to move


I'll be putting some kind of handle on it. I don't anticipate having to move it when full since mine stay put on our property. Even so, those cut-in hand holds are not going to cut it. I usually just rip a 1x2 and cut some grips on the router. It works well for honey supers and much better grip than the recessed ones.


----------



## bjorn

Greg, I'd like to switch gears a bit and ask about transitioning from lang to these. With a swarm, it would be pretty straight forward. With an overwintered colony it seems more challenging. Would you be inclined to "convert" the frames with bees on them... aka drilling holes, rotating, zipties, etc.? Or, would you place the populated lang on top of the hybrid to let them build down as they would in a tree then allow that box to become the "attic"? It seems if done in early May, that could also be part of a walkaway split (or just let them swarm in hopes of catching it).


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> Greg, I'd like to switch gears a bit and ask about transitioning from lang to these. With a swarm, it would be pretty straight forward. With an overwintered colony it seems more challenging. Would you be inclined to "convert" the frames with bees on them... aka drilling holes, rotating, zipties, etc.? Or, would you place the populated lang on top of the hybrid to let them build down as they would in a tree then allow that box to become the "attic"? It seems if done in early May, that could also be part of a walkaway split (or just let them swarm in hopes of catching it).


I would not place Lang on the top - it may take a long time before they build down.
Meanwhile, they are not likely to abandon the Lang section and you will get stuck with it.
Too much hassle.

I would in fact just convert them on the spot and be done.
The logic of the move is described well here:





Langstroth-to-Layens Hive Conversion | Free Plans | Natural Beekeeping







horizontalhive.com




The only issue with the instructions is that - they complicate everything for no reason with the conversion hardware needs (the silly frame size differences are not needed).
The Layen-style hive should be just compatible with Lang hive - my point all along.

So, I'd shake the bees into your new Layens hive.
Then mod the frames into new format like pictured, insert them in and be done.
Ideally, you want the proper frames made up and gradually rotate out the converted frames.
But it is not required - the converted frames can just stay as-is also.


----------



## ursa_minor

I am no expert but I found that those frames from Leo Sharaskin were wasted comb space. Some bees I got were in lang deeps so I could not tie wrap two to a layens top bar. I made these dummy top bars, I am no woodworker and I am sure a better one than I can come up with a more solid dummy frame. The bees just build comb in the space. Every dummy frame had the bees end the comb right at the bottom of the original frame, they did not build it any longer than that. 

I screwed these in before I learned about the versatility of a zip tie. On this one I did not cut off the ears, I did not want to wreck the frame so I just inserted a piece of wood rather than fiddling with a dado cut into a solid board.


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> I am no expert but I found that those frames from Leo Sharaskin were *wasted comb space*.


I agree.
I don't follow his adapter design for this exact reason.

So - his general conversion logic is good.
But then come his frame adapters and hive shims - all bunch of unnecessary and sub optimal gizmos (all due to the hive design not thought all way through).


----------



## bjorn

I'm thinking zip tie my frames together, put 2 holes in the top ears with a cordless drill and slide a piece of #9 wire thru... done.

No shims, no hocus pocus


----------



## bjorn

Greg, I'm getting ready to drill the vent holes in my top cover on the "coffin" as you call it. Since my entrances are on the lower left and right front face, I'm leaning toward about eight 1/2" holes in the center rear of the top cover. Does that seem like reasonable placement? I did something similar in the hybrid... basically main entrance and vent on opposite corners.


----------



## bjorn

I'm thinking vents in the circled area.


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> Does that seem like *reasonable placement?* I did something similar in the hybrid... basically main *entrance and vent on opposite corners.*


Yes. Same here.
Remember - in winter you will configure the "coffin" so that ventilation will go *around *the bees (NOT *through *the bees). 
In summer less critical, but you'll still have some cover on the frames - to prevent the outright drafting through.
Sort of like on this pic (I use this pic a lot):


----------



## bjorn

Yes, I figured if the inner brood box was shifted to on side, half of the top vents would likely be blocked by the extra insulation on top of the frames... leaving the other half of the vents open. Perhaps I should place the vents at







the outside rear corners like in the hybrid. Then there would be no interference with the inner "box".


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> the outside rear corners like in the hybrid. Then there would be no interference with the inner "box".


Maybe with the ventilated corners you are better set for potential two-unit setup (on both ends) - a possibility there.
For the winter setup you should be fine anyway with ample air pockets.
Mine lids are ventilated on all four corners.


----------



## bjorn

I think before I put this in place, I'll make a full length division board just in case the two colony scenario arises. Easier to measure now than full of bees.


----------



## bjorn

I found a fairly straight forward conversion for my swarm traps. I cut them in half and stacked the two halves. Now the deep frame fits perfectly and I won't be rotating new comb 90 degrees to install. I am working on frames now. Do they need a center cross support? I have dowel rods I could use or stainless wire from wiring langs.


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> Do they need a center cross support? I have dowel rods I could use or stainless wire from wiring langs.


Just do double-support.

I highly recommend Matt's Layens channel.
He implemented few recommendations from me - look at his frames:


----------



## bjorn

I've watched several of his videos. I notice in some of your comments you mention using full width side/end bars. Are you still recommending that? Also, mine are currently 1 3/8", but I read in one of your posts that you were using 1 1/4" width. Again, are you still recommending that and some insight as to why would be greatly appreciated.

I believe narrowing my lang top/bottom bars and just cutting new end bars will be faster and stronger than the way I tried it above with likely the same time investment.

Thanks for your patience... I'm always trying to learn more.


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> Also, mine are currently 1 3/8", but I read in one of your posts that you were using 1 1/4" width. Again, are you still recommending that and some insight as to why would be greatly appreciated.


Just use 1.375 (1 3/8) and be done (when reusing frames and don't care to be shaving frames).

If doing from scratch - look into 1.25 - more flexible setup, as you can squeeze your frames close when needed, and you can also spread them when needed.


----------



## bjorn

Just one width the whole way down? No narrowing like the manufactured frames?


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> Just one width the whole way down? No narrowing like the manufactured frames?


Oh, that.
Just do similar to Hoffman.
I wanted to do Hoffman-like, but much longer down (2/3 way down or maybe even 3/4 way down).
Thinking was to create a double-wall
Well, I never got this done for myself

To be honest I just don't have the time to implement all ideas that come along.
The less critical things just don't get done.
So I don't monkey around with the frame widths much anymore - it is just too much work for too little bang. There are other things that are much more critical or interesting.

This season it will be about a vertical hive - I really have to cut the frames for my vertical hive.
For the long hives, it will be just more plastic frame cut-outs as needed.


----------



## bjorn

Playing around with the jointer portion of my ancient table saw... looks like it will work pretty well for these.


----------



## Gray Goose

bjorn said:


> Playing around with the jointer portion of my ancient table saw... looks like it will work pretty well for these.
> View attachment 62650


looks good,
is the combined gap 3/8 if so you are good to go.
some do the joiner part before ripping the 2x material down.

nice work

GG


----------



## bjorn

Gray Goose said:


> is the combined gap 3/8 if so you are good to go.
> some do the joiner part before ripping the 2x material down.


I'm still working on the gap, this is the first time I've tried the jointer. I believe I'm at about 5/16 right now. As I was running them through I was thinking exactly what you mentioned... run the material thru before ripping it so thin. Faster and I think it would be much safer to do that too.


----------



## bjorn

The router table proved much more reliable and WAY less sketchy. This is a great old saw but lacks the safety features of today.


----------



## bjorn

GregV said:


> Just do double-support.


I see there are people using bamboo skewers as cross supports. I have a bunch, they are thin, but it would be quick to implement. With two of them placed like Matt's, do you think it would be strong enough?


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> I see there are people using bamboo skewers as cross supports. I have a bunch, they are thin, but it would be quick to implement. With two of them placed like Matt's, do you think it would be strong enough?


Based on my experience, two is good.
It is not really about the frame being strong enough (it will be anyway).

It is more about the foundation-less combs (which I assume you will do because you are thinking of the supports).

With two supports you get three smaller but stronger comb sections.
In addition you have better options to affix chunks of pre-existing combs into 3-section frame (2-section frame is pretty useless at that).

Btw, after years of testing now, I also like wired foundation-less frames (better than a single cross support). But the issue with the wires - you can not easily (if at all) fix pre-existing comb into them. Wires are only for the brand new comb built from scratch.

The double-support frame is fine for either new comb or pre-existing comb inserts.
For the supports I do NOT use spindles - I instead use up my old cut-up baby crib  those 1" wide bars from the crib a perfect for the frame supports.

The single cross-support is neither here nor there - pretty much people just don't know any better and keep copying this mediocre solution from each other. LOL.


----------



## bjorn

Now I have my layens frames mapped out. I cut empty assembled lang frames, narrow and dado the top, make custom 1 1/4" ends and narrow the bottom. This produces the frame on the left. The frame on the right is obviously 2 med rotated and tied together. 

So now the question is, do I bother cutting drawn comb out of some of my extra frames to insert into these new frames or just use the old frames in spliced/rotated fashion until I get the new frames drawn with foundationless comb?


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> So now the question is, do I bother cutting drawn comb out of some of my extra frames to insert into these new frames or just use the old frames in spliced/rotated fashion until I get the new frames drawn with foundationless comb?


I would simply use the existing frames as guides to build the foundation-less.
It is the bees' job to build.

Back when I did not have many pre-existing frames and was in a crunch, I'd tape any remnants of comb into my blank frames. But that was then.

Though still a good option to bate up a trap with black scrap combs.
Smaller sections give you better options to cut to size and squeeze in the sections of comb.
Here is why double-support is much better (vs. the single and vs. the god-forbid wires).
Also why I like the 1" wide support bars - the make great "shelves" (unlike the spindles).
Kind of like these.


----------



## GregB

Did some work today and took few pics.
On one you will see the "hive-inside-hive" setup - as I left them today.
This is how they wintered, but I reduced it today to keep them tighter.
One of the frames is an ad-hoc temp with brood on it, so I can not take it out now (in warmer time I will move it outside the nest and then pull out completely).
On another I took a pic how I clean out the hive floor just under the bottom board using a long knife. Really simple and the bees don't get disturbed.


----------



## GregB

Pretty much:

cleaned out
reduced to 5 frames (4 with brood/pollen and 1 honey)
set all the remaining honey frames outside of the follower board for easy access
gave them a bottle of water with a pinch of salt, so they have it during the cold days
covered well and closed in
will see them in a month again


----------



## bjorn

I appreciate the update and pics to see the system in use. I'm going to try my "conversion" this week from their overwintering in Lang to the "coffin". I want to get it done before they ramp up too much in the next month.


----------



## bjorn

I built a couple insulated nucs for playing with an expansion model or housing small swarms. The sides are insulated with 1/2" polystyrene plus an inch of lumber. I plan to place them back to back to share heat over winter and add insulation to both fronts and the top. They'll hold 6 deep layens style frames... mine are 11 7/8 x 17 1/2 actual comb area each. I'll try pulling a frame of eggs, frame of brood and frame of honey to see what they do in late May or early June. I would think they could store enough to overwinter in these as a small colony. Thoughts?


----------



## GregB

Why sure.
Just look at these - each is compatible to a single Lang deep.
People winter in single Langs all the time - but yours are actually configured better with lots of honey overhead when all set.
My utility traps are 6-7 framers and I can hardly lift one when they are packed with stores.


----------



## bjorn

I'm not seeing a pic, but maybe it's because I'm viewing on a phone.


----------



## GregB

By "......Just look at these - each is compatible to a single Lang deep......" 
I mean "Just look at your insulated nucs...."


----------



## bjorn

I'm playing with old comb rubber banded into the deep frames in hopes it will speed up getting them drawn out. I have a ton of drawn med frames, so I thought it would save them on resources. The question I have is will they draw upward, counter to their usual buildin







g technique? These cutouts obviously rest on the bottom of the frame supports. Just curious what others have observed.


----------



## GregB

I like how you did it.
In fact, now you see why I suggested to do the 3 section frames.
The 2 section frame (commonly done) is not as good when it gets to comb reuse.
Also, the sizing of the 3 sections is such that typical Lang medium frame combs are a good fit into the sections.

They will build up - no problem.
It is not that hard to build a bridge comb up 1-2 inches.
But in your situation, they can and likely will build fill in the gaps build downwards anyway, because they can.

The bees ONLY build down - a common misconception.
In reality the bees build in ANY direction IF must.
Certainly, only building along the gravity vector (down) will build the longest/largest combs because it is the easiest direction. Gravity helps.


----------



## bjorn

The bridge comb comparison mskes perfect sense. I'm trying to use brood comb in the bottom 2 sections and drone up top which ideally they will fill with honey for winter. Now I just hope the rubber bands hold long enough for them to attach the combs. The "old" rubber bands I used did not hold up well. I bought some new bands, hopefully they hold up better.


----------



## bjorn

I have noticed the queens are laying in only the south-most frame of the ziptied mediums. I don't know if it's magnetic lines, positioning of the sun or just coincidence. But, it seems to be consistent. The hives sit east to west. Perhaps the south frame is warmer.


----------



## Gray Goose

bjorn said:


> I have noticed the queens are laying in only the south-most frame of the ziptied mediums. I don't know if it's magnetic lines, positioning of the sun or just coincidence. But, it seems to be consistent. The hives sit east to west. Perhaps the south frame is warmer.


its the warmest spot, as the colony gains strength they will expand out.
often my swarm catches start in a corner, then migrate out.

try to move the drone comb to the edge of the hive in time, better if the winter cluster in spring finds themselves on worker size cells.
over all looks good, hopefully they fill it in as expected.

GG


----------



## bjorn

I have not opened the top couple entrances. I'm guessing this is probably a sign that I should. It's only gonna get warmer throughout the week.


----------



## GregB

This also tells me you probably are planning some splitting to do? 

I also don't see any ventilation holes in your lids (especially granted you chose dark paint for your hives; I dunno if the place is shady or not). Don't you want any?


----------



## bjorn

There are 4 holes on the back side of the roof... each one 1/2" diameter as you suggested previously. These were packages put in about a month ago, so no plan to split. I have been waiting for them to fill the 12 deep frames before adding supers on top. Perhaps that time has come.


----------



## bjorn

I think I will add 4 more on the right side of the cover too. I'll also screen them on the inside too. They keep getting clogged up with drones trying to exit.


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> I think I will add 4 more on the right side of the cover too. I'll also screen them on the inside too. They keep getting clogged up with drones trying to exit.


You want you ventilation to be drafty - need to have opposite air flow.
This is fine because there should be NO bees under the cover.

Why do you have drones in the "attic" clogging the holes?
You have to have soft cover (I use fabric) on top of your frames so that no one is running around in the "attic".
This air buffer is needed to keep the bees below it cooler.


----------



## bjorn

I do have a soft cover made out of a feed bag, but I think it needs to be bigger to cover all the frames. I like the fabric idea, more breathable for better ventilation. I'll switch it out when I add the super tomorrow. I think I have some burlap.


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> I add the super tomorrow.


Thinking the same - you need to add supers.


----------



## bjorn

I think this goes down as a fail. The rubber bands break easily and then the comb just sags and falls over. I believe Greg you were correct, let them build the comb so it is sturdy and attached well.


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> The rubber bands break easily


Try painter's tape.
It takes bees while to remove that - but that time the combs will be attached.


----------



## bjorn

I will try tape.
These are in significant sun. I painted them brown for some solar gain in winter. I'm not sure that offsets the additional heat in summer. I think I'll go lighter in the future and wrap with landscaping fabric or tar paper for winter. This is the most bearding I have ever had on a hive.


----------



## bjorn

Well, so much for the paint color theory. I swapped out to a lighter color this morning and the bearding is the same. This is with all the entrances open and 2 vents in the top.


----------



## GregB

bjorn, 
So did you ever inserted slabs of polystyrene into your lids?
Pretty sure you did, just checking - the lid insulation is definitely a must for you.
This is pretty crazy bearding.
Of course, most all of my hives in full shade or afternoon shade - so I don't have this problem.


----------



## bjorn

Yes, it is the heaviest bearding I have ever had. My bees have always been in this location in langs. It must be a ventilation issue. There is 2" of insulation permanently built into the lid. I currently have 2 sets of vent holes on the back side of the lid. 4 holes, 1/2" each toward the corners. I think I will add holes on the front of the lid as well to hopefully create some cross ventilation and cool off the inside. They are sitting in my orchard and don't get sun until about 11am. Then they are in full sun until about 5 pm and shaded again after that. It was 92 degrees yesterday, but this is still extreme bearding.


----------



## GregB

Yes, definitely more ventilation at your setup then needed.
Did you ever create any ventilation slots in the bottoms?
Those maybe needed too.

Now, thinking back to the Sharashkin's Layens.
You know his hives and he get much hotter summers there - we get 90's but he gets 100's.
I wonder how he gets away with it, but must be the combination of shade and thicker walls that help.

My largest 20-framer gets some afternoon sun, but the x2 wood construction may be helping.
I never ever had such bad bearding - just a fraction of yours at the worst times.


----------



## bjorn

No vents in the bottom currently. I could put some in the side, though not sure the bees would care for drilling while they are in there. Then again, they are mostly outside. A 1" hole is same area as the four 1/2" holes combined. I can't get underneath but could put one one each side as low as possible then staple screen on quickly.







Right here?


----------



## bjorn

I went ahead and put a 1" hole in each side. I'll see how that helps the bearding. After doing that I decided to move my caught swarm into a hybrid hive. They drew this beautiful comb while working in the bait hive. This was an empty layens style frame... no foundation, just bees doing their fine work.


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> No vents in the bottom currently. I could put some in the side, though not sure the bees would care for drilling while they are in there. Then again, they are mostly outside. A 1" hole is same area as the four 1/2" holes combined. I can't get underneath but could put one one each side as low as possible then staple screen on quickly.
> View attachment 63860
> Right here?


Sure.
I got one long hive with vents just that - have four 1/2' holes as a row on each back, lower corner
For the winter I taped the over to reduce drafting. It felt it was too drafty.
That's makes it easy - tape closed/untape as needed.


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> This was an empty layens style frame... no foundation, just bees doing their fine work.


Nice!


----------



## ursa_minor

Thanks for keeping us up to date on this thread bjorn, I am learning while you learn. The picture of the full layens comb shows very well how they organize their home, it is nice.


----------



## bjorn

I don't know if it's due to the heat inside the hive from the ventilation issue or not, but there is virtually no brood in these hives. I gave one a frame with some eggs last night from another hive just in case. I'll check back in a week for queen cells.


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> I don't know if it's due to the heat inside the hive from the ventilation issue or not, but there is virtually no brood in these hives. I gave one a frame with some eggs last night from another hive just in case. I'll check back in a week for queen cells.


Never know with the packages; can be anything.
Here is an example picture of bearding I had last summer where some commercial bee swarm would rather just beard and do nothing (while in shade!). 
Meanwhile bees kept working productively in a very similar hive just behind the "lazy bees" (another picture).

Also, that swarm of yours had no issues brooding in the trap hives (not much ventilation there).

I also wonder if you want to reconsider your hive placement.
Like I said, I always look for afternoon shade.
This is good for the bees and myself both.
I would not want to be doing a cut-out/transfer work last weekend in direct sun when it is 90F in shade - just not smart.


----------



## Gray Goose

that looks to be a serious bearding issue.
not sure the 1 little hole is the "fix"

maybe make a bottom board with entrance both ways, or set the hive on 3/4 X 1/2 inch sticks for the length of the side, to get air flow front to back.
if they stopped brooding , that is a sign.....

maybe shift them into more afternoon shade.

GG


----------



## bjorn

These hives are screwed together... Greg's hybrid design more or less. Modification possibilities are somewhat limited with them full of bees. I can add more ventilation holes on the sides easy enough. I've had bees in these locations for years and they've always flourished, BUT in langs. I'm inclined to think it's still a ventilation issue with my build. There must be a balance that can be achieved with this design and the amount of ventilation needed. I'll add more vent holes... if they don't want them they'll just fill them with propolis.


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> I've had bees in these locations for years and they've always flourished, BUT in langs.


What was that Lang attribute that helped the most you think?
Large entry? Many entries? 
Central wide bottom entry combined with multiple upper entries?
Screened bottom?

For sure, sounds like your setup mimics the usual Southern setup (like when people run hives in full sun & full time to mitigate SHB).
I never thought of this setup because I always avoid the full sun & full time for the reasons I described.


----------



## bjorn

My langs had screened bottom boards... and wide entrances. They had upper entrances too, small most of the year, larger in summer. I think the vents in the top cover of the hybrid should provide sufficient top ventilation. I will try another two 1" holes in the sides and leave one of them unscreened as an additional entrance. I'll close them off for winter.


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> My langs had screened bottom boards... and wide entrances.


Well, this tells it all.


----------



## bjorn

I added 2 more vent holes on the lower side and put an upper entrance in with some cedar shims. They immediately started fanning at the upper entrance. I will monitor the bearding and restrict it a bit later to thwart robbing.


----------



## bjorn

I believe I have found a balance.


----------



## GregB

Here is one approach in the conditions of direct hot sun in dry semi-desert - artificial shade - look at big sheets that guy keeps on his hives.
These hives have:

single lower entrance
solid bottoms.
no special ventilation holes.
Pretty much the shade does it all.


----------



## Randar

GregV said:


> Here is one approach in the conditions of direct hot sun in dry semi-desert - artificial shade - look at big sheets that guy keeps on his hives.
> These hives have:
> 
> single lower entrance
> solid bottoms.
> no special ventilation holes.
> Pretty much the shade does it all.


I do similar with white PVC sheets that are relatively inexpensive and can by cut with just about any type of simple snip/shear. I picked up the idea from Jim @ Vino Farms youtube channel. Keeps more weather off your woodenware and keeps summer temps down in the hive. Combined with Vivaldi boards I have had zero bearding despite sustained 90 degree temps and sun (and drought) throughout early June here.

Each of these sheets is enough for at least 3 10-frame langstroth hives. Could be adapted for other hive sizes/styles without issue.








PVCLite 26" x 8' White PVC Corrugated Roof Panel


PVCLite Sheet from AmeriLux is a corrugated PVC round wave sheet that's available in white or beige. This sheet has a length of 8 feet and is 26 inches wide with approximately 24 inches net coverage. PVCLite is durable, flexible, attractive, and a high-value choice for a wide variety of projects...




www.menards.com


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## bjorn

The "coffin" finally reached the population point where the ventilation was inadequate in it as well. I added more vent holes in the lid like in the others. I had already added bottom ventilation a month ago. For reference, I included pics of the bearding on the hybrid to show the level of bearding with and without the extra ventilation.


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## GFWestTexas

Very good read, wish I found this a while back. Would of helped if I had opened eyes.


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## bjorn

There has been a learning curve for sure. It took a while to dial in the ventilation, which cost two queens. Maybe it was coincidence, maybe it was just bad package queens, maybe it was the extreme heat in those hives early on. In any case, I gave them eggs, they raised queens and they are doing well now.


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> It took a while to dial in the ventilation, which cost two queens.


Doubt it.
Your brood would bake first before the adult bees. I don't recall you had that problem.
Besides, queens get outside too for fresh air, if that becomes a pressing issue.


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## Gray Goose

dialing in the venting is real.
in a stack you have the chimney effect, helps sometimes hurts sometimes.
long hive has no chimney effect, same, sometime that is good sometimes it is bad.

I made a drawer under my long hive, closed in winter, open a bit in summer, so IMO fixed will work well at 1 time of a year, not so much others. 
Somehow try to make it adjustable.

the drawer also uses the concept of open air space under the hive same as a hollow tree, gives a bigger air volume than just the hive interior, this extra air can adsorb , heat, moisture, CO2 , etc. several things.

GG


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## GFWestTexas

Gray Goose said:


> dialing in the venting is real.
> in a stack you have the chimney effect, helps sometimes hurts sometimes.
> long hive has no chimney effect, same, sometime that is good sometimes it is bad.
> 
> I made a drawer under my long hive, closed in winter, open a bit in summer, so IMO fixed will work well at 1 time of a year, not so much others.
> Somehow try to make it adjustable.
> 
> the drawer also uses the concept of open air space under the hive same as a hollow tree, gives a bigger air volume than just the hive interior, this extra air can adsorb , heat, moisture, CO2 , etc. several things.
> 
> GG


I prefer to use vented top cover where I am located. I build my own, and my own telescoping cover with longer edges, as I found it allows the bees to keep the temp more constant. I have zero experience with horizontals, other than seeing friends etc. That said would it be easier to control the ventilation using long rectangular cut, and placing a sliding door if you will along the top, and a 4”-6” adjustable vent on the bottom, as to control the draft if you will?


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## little_john

Hello Bjorn - from time to time I post about the importance of adequate ventilation and the role of Open Mesh Floors and Slatted Rack floors in preventing conditions which cause bearding - but - people keep telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about, and so I don't post about ventilation quite as much as I used to.

As warm air rises, mesh floors will provide the facility of sourcing a substantial flow of air* from the coolest region of a shaded area.* If the top of the hive can be opened in some way, then there is the *potentia*l for a through-draught ( ? draft in the US ?) to pass through the hive. I say 'potential', because if the combs themelves are congested, then this draught cannot easily pass through the comb array - that is, unless the bees vacate those combs.

I haven't read back through all of this thread to check - but if you're not using 1 1/2-inch (38mm) frame spacing, I suggest you do. The extra 1/8-inch between combs has been shown to make all the difference between bearding and non-bearding (assuming ventilation has been provided) - but most importantly, between swarming and non-swarming. There's a good discussion of this spacing in Dadant's 'System of Beekeeping' - a copy can be sourced from: Dadant system of beekeeping : Dadant, C. P. (Camille Pierre), 1851-1938 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Another good tip is to have an empty box of some sort below the brood nest, the presence of which the bees appreciate. It's then wise to install a slatted rack to prevent wild comb being drawn within that box. In practice I find that such racks are not necessary when working with deep combs (c.12").
'best
LJ


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## bjorn

There is a space below the frames approximately 2" inches deep. All of the vent holes are screened, but could easily be blocked for winter if necessary. There should not be much in the way of draft in winter because the cluster will be between 2 follower boards and the "box within a box" created by them will be insulated on top. We've had a couple stretches of 90 degree, high humidity weather. I believe it can be seen the difference the additional venting made from the pics above. All were taken in hot weather. I appreciate the insight and will continue to tweak the design as I can.


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## Gray Goose

GFWestTexas said:


> I prefer to use vented top cover where I am located. I build my own, and my own telescoping cover with longer edges, as I found it allows the bees to keep the temp more constant. I have zero experience with horizontals, other than seeing friends etc. That said would it be easier to control the ventilation using long rectangular cut, and placing a sliding door if you will along the top, and a 4”-6” adjustable vent on the bottom, as to control the draft if you will?


my "sliding door" is a scrap of wood and 4 screws, adjustable but semi permanent. I have 2 settings winter maybe 5 inches, and summer wide open.

GG


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## GFWestTexas

So based on thermal dynamics, you would really only want two vents open at a time. On a Horizontal bee hive as this would produce your best potential draft. I am figuring as heat rises it would most likely pull from the bottom, so you would want it on the far left or right, with your top vent opposite as to pull through the entirety of said hive. 


little_john said:


> Hello Bjorn - from time to time I post about the importance of adequate ventilation and the role of Open Mesh Floors and Slatted Rack floors in preventing conditions which cause bearding - but - people keep telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about, and so I don't post about ventilation quite as much as I used to.
> 
> As warm air rises, mesh floors will provide the facility of sourcing a substantial flow of air* from the coolest region of a shaded area.* If the top of the hive can be opened in some way, then there is the *potentia*l for a through-draught ( ? draft in the US ?) to pass through the hive. I say 'potential', because if the combs themelves are congested, then this draught cannot easily pass through the comb array - that is, unless the bees vacate those combs.
> 
> I haven't read back through all of this thread to check - but if you're not using 1 1/2-inch (38mm) frame spacing, I suggest you do. The extra 1/8-inch between combs has been shown to make all the difference between bearding and non-bearding (assuming ventilation has been provided) - but most importantly, between swarming and non-swarming. There's a good discussion of this spacing in Dadant's 'System of Beekeeping' - a copy can be sourced from: Dadant system of beekeeping : Dadant, C. P. (Camille Pierre), 1851-1938 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
> 
> Another good tip is to have an empty box of some sort below the brood nest, the presence of which the bees appreciate. It's then wise to install a slatted rack to prevent wild comb being drawn within that box. In practice I find that such racks are not necessary when working with deep combs (c.12").
> 'best
> LJ


Would building the slatted rack the entire length of the hive floor be a problem, as the brood nest is moving in the horizontal? As previously stated I have no experience with horizontal hives, but am very interested in them, so the statements above are more questions if you will.


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## GregB

little_john said:


> Another good tip is to have an empty box of some sort below the brood nest, the presence of which the bees appreciate. It's then wise to install a slatted rack to prevent wild comb being drawn within that box.* In practice I find that such racks are not necessary when working with deep combs* (c.12").


+1
With the frames sizing that bjorn has (identical to mine), this is not necessary.
There is plenty of cross-comb ventilation with the deep frames.
Essentially, at this depth they will never build all way down so to create air stagnation (a typical issue with shallow frames).


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## Gray Goose

I do not have a top vent in my long lang.
I have seen trees with bees with out a top vent.

you CAN also over vent so .... you only need to vent 30 watts or so of heat IMO.

to vent or not to vent. how big to vent, shall it be one size fits all seasons.

GG


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## GFWestTexas

Just figured it would be best to have, a way to vent the hive and with that set up, You could change or totally eliminate the ventilation depending on the situation.


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## Gray Goose

GFWestTexas said:


> Just figured it would be best to have, a way to vent the hive and with that set up, You could change or totally eliminate the ventilation depending on the situation.


what about a 1.5 inch PVC pipe into the side area of the hive in a hive.
you could drill small holes in a cap, take the cap off, put a cap on, etc

could even runn to all the way thru and have a bottom hole, then drill small holes in the area of the hive interior.
draw air, exchange air, and vent air with 1 tube and several end. can put a T on an end and use venturi effect to assist the natural venting if you feel the need,, with a adapter.

its on my 2 do list to try one.

GG


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## little_john

GFWestTexas said:


> Just figured it would be best to have, a way to vent the hive and with that set up, You could change or totally eliminate the ventilation depending on the situation.


Yes, of course - the advantage of providing a facility for massive amounts of ventilation beforehand is that you haven't then *got* to use it - but it's there in case it's needed.

FWIW - to clarify - my earlier comments about 'through-ventilation' were directed at a 'firefighting' situation such as Bjorn has faced, when half of the colony is stuck on the outside of a beehive due to oppressive conditions inside, perhaps for days on end. With appropriate ventilation measures, the provision of shade and so on, through-ventilation shouldn't be necessary - but it's still handy to be able to invoke this, just in case it is.

GG - comparison with a tree is an error: if you enter a wood of any size or a forest during a heatwave, the first thing you'll notice is just how cool it is under that arboreal canopy. In such a cool environment, additional ventilation simply isn't required. But - expose a relatively thin-walled box to direct sunlight, and the situation quickly becomes very different.

One other observation I wanted to make is that beekeepers do seem to have a habit of developing 'absolutist' opinions with regard to beehive issues - it's either 100% open mesh ventilation OR solid floors. Why is this ? Some of my hives have open mesh floors of between 25 and 50% of their total floor area, and they seem happy enough - that is, bearding is never observed. But then, we do see less extreme weather conditions than many folk.

Having said that, the UK has just begun to enter a substantial heat-wave - it probably won't last for long, a week at most - but health warnings have already been issued. I noticed yesterday that some of my hives have begun to beard - but *only* those few hives still on solid floors. This simply cannot be a coincidence - and this morning I'll be erecting shading over those hives which will hopefully suffice for a few days - but what they really need is bottom mesh ventilation - like the others have.
LJ


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## bjorn

All of this is certainly situational. My langs are in the shade in a different location on my property. They have shown no signs of bearding. They have screened bottoms with the corrugated plastic still installed(just never got to removing them). The hybrid and layens are in direct sun part of the day. I've keep langs in that location for years. The beard in extreme heat too. With the added ventilation in my hives, at this location, in my current weather they are not bearding significantly. There are currently four 1" screened holes at the bottom center of the side walls. I have one of them unscreened as an additional entrance on a the busier hives. They mostly appear to be using it to haul out debris. It is sufficient airflow for now. I suspect they may cover the screens with propolis as the weather cools. I'll screen the open holes for mice protection. Anyway, it really is fascinating to experiment with them and hear what works for others.


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## GregB

little_john said:


> GG - comparison with a tree is an error: if you enter a wood of any size or a forest during a heatwave, the first thing you'll notice is just how cool it is under that arboreal canopy. In such a cool environment, additional ventilation simply isn't required. But - expose a relatively thin-walled box to direct sunlight, and the situation quickly becomes very different.


BTW, there is nothing wrong with emulating exactly this - the cool environment of a forest.
As of me, this is rather a "standard" that I try to have in place in a form of afternoon shade/full shade
I include myself into this picture too - comfort of the working in shade is an important consideration (+30C and 80% humidity at the moment - in shade).

As we speak, I am selecting a new location for the bees due to a move.
Main considerations - afternoon shade and wind break from West/North directions.
A proper location is a "part of the hive design" if you will.


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## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> BTW, there is nothing wrong with emulating exactly this - the cool environment of a forest.
> As of me, this is rather a "standard" that I try to have in place in a form of afternoon shade/full shade
> I include myself into this picture too - comfort of the working in shade is an important consideration (+30C and 80% humidity at the moment - in shade).
> 
> As we speak, I am selecting a new location for the bees due to a move.
> Main considerations - afternoon shade and wind break from West/North directions.
> A proper location is a "part of the hive design" if you will.


yep agree in a forest.....
















off the ground, wind break from the north face east, not much rain, with trees in the shade.

GG


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## GFWestTexas

I have thought about building something like that, with the Slovenian Langstroth hives. That’s great GG.


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## little_john

GregV said:


> BTW, there is nothing wrong with emulating exactly this - the cool environment of a forest.


'morning Greg. Indeed. Just to clarify ... when I wrote *"GG - comparison with a tree is an error:"* - the 'error' I was referring to was NOT emulation of the forest environment itself, but rather using the absence of upper vents in trees as a logical argument for not providing upper vents in beehives.

GG - that is one helluva stunning structure - would make a good front page illustration (and article ?) for the ABJ. 

Yesterday was a right 'cooker' of a day, and today is forecast to be even hotter. Shading those few hives yesterday didn't prove sufficient to prevent serious bearding, so this morning I'll be opening the top vents (feed holes) in their Crown Boards as an emergency measure. Myself, I'll be staying indoors a few hours either side of midday to keep out of the heat. These sort of days are few and far between in this locale - so we're not set up for them - wish there was more overhanging tree cover around here. 
LJ


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## Gray Goose

little_john said:


> 'morning Greg. Indeed. Just to clarify ... when I wrote *"GG - comparison with a tree is an error:"* - the 'error' I was referring to was NOT emulation of the forest environment itself, but rather using the absence of upper vents in trees as a logical argument for not providing upper vents in beehives.
> 
> GG - that is one helluva stunning structure - would make a good front page illustration (and article ?) for the ABJ.
> 
> Yesterday was a right 'cooker' of a day, and today is forecast to be even hotter. Shading those few hives yesterday didn't prove sufficient to prevent serious bearding, so this morning I'll be opening the top vents (feed holes) in their Crown Boards as an emergency measure. Myself, I'll be staying indoors a few hours either side of midday to keep out of the heat. These sort of days are few and far between in this locale - so we're not set up for them - wish there was more overhanging tree cover around here.
> LJ


LJ 
the temp thing seems fickle.
Some hives beard next one does not.
in the bees shed, I can remove the top cover and put the quilt box on Empty, it seems to vent a fair amount of air, thru the cloth.
Most of my hives do not have excluders, an actual top entrance can cause brood throughout the whole stack,some sort of low air escape tends to keep the brood down to the bottom.

the heat out west is causing some grief no doubt.

GG

Agree in a hive some venting method is needed, even a 3/8 stick under the lid.


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## bjorn

Update time:

I wanted to share my thoughts/observations so far. Currently I have 7 hives... 1 long layens, 3 short layens(aka Greg V hybrids) and 3 traditional langs. Observations in no particular order.
1- layens hives are WAY easier to inspect and manipulate. The single level makes access quite simple. The long "coffin" is the easiest. The lid is hinged... I just walk up, lift the lid and do what I need to do. There is a follower board at the back end where they want to store honey. Mine did not reach a population level sufficient to require removal of this board. I've put various frames in there empty cavity behind the FB for them to clean out. They have done this quite well. Removing them, particularly now when the floral sources are about done, stirs them up a bit. 
2- upper and lower vents are needed in my location, climate, etc. I have four 1/2" holes in each corner of the insulated top cover assembly. They are screened from the inside and outside to prevent drones from getting stuck (lesson learned the hard way). 
3- burlap soft inner covers seem to work well. I tried feed bags... they seem to work but I don't feel they breathe as well.
4- the hybrid langs seem to work well, are easy to build using medium langs that I already have and are pretty easy to manage. I waited until all but one frame was being used to add a super on top. The bees then transitioned to filling the super and never touched the last frame. Perhaps next year I need to wait until 100% occupancy in the hybrid before adding a super. I've since removed the super and empty frames to start condensing them down for winter. 
5- rubber banding or taping comb into the layens frames seems to be an exercise in futility. I rested the frames on the cross bars of the frames I built. I believe the bees really want to start from the top and work down. They did not fill in the gap from the top bar to the drawn comb. Maybe if I'd have hung the comb from the top/cross bars it would have been more successful. Really, I think I should just let the bees be bees and draw their own new comb. 
6- 


Here's a current assessment of all hives:
Long layens aka the "coffin" as GregV dubbed it. I LOVE this hive. So easy to work. It was a rough start... I transferred my one surviving winter colony to this hive from a lang. It involved zip tied frames covered in bees, drilling holes to insert a rod to hang them sideways. It was not as smooth as the Dr Leo videos make it look. Perhaps it was due to my first time, not sure. There was no brood to speak of and the conversion occurred in late april which should have been a heavy ramp up in my area. I may or may not have killed the old queen in the process. A few weeks later there was still no brood. I added a Saskatraz queen. She started slowly, but took off in early June. The hive has been booming since. They never quite filled the coffin, but there are probably 18-20 frames being used. I'm anxious to see how they winter. 

Hybrid 1 was a swarm caught in a bait hive fitted with 3 empty layens frames and 3 conversion (2 med langs ziptied sideways). By the time I moved them from the bait tree, they had drawn 2 of the 3 empties and started the 3rd. It was beautiful comb. They quickly filled out the remaining combs in the hybrid box and a super was added. They filled that super about 70%. I removed the super last week in preparation for winter.

Hybrid 2 was a package. This was one of the vent issue casualties. After the extreme bearding, they were queenless. It might be coincidence, but no brood was present after multiple inspections weeks apart. I gave them a frame with fresh eggs from the coffin and they successfully raised a queen. The hive has never really taken off since then. They are holding their own, but I've since removed about 4 frames from the back. I'm feeding them now in hopes to get them through winter, but my hopes are not high.

Hybrid 3 was virtually the same as hybrid 2 with more extreme bearding issues. The same measures were taken... fresh donor eggs reared a new queen. She has done pretty well. They filled the hybrid box, except for one frame. A super was added, which they filled about 50%. It has been removed and upon inspection there were 2-3 unused deep frames below. They have been removed to start condensing the nest for winter. 

Langs- It was a stroke of luck really... a beek down the road stopped in late May asking if I wanted some free bees. Of course, who passes up free bees. The downside was his were on


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## bjorn

I somehow got stuck in an advertisement and couldn't get out. So I continue...
The removed supers from the layens were placed above an empty super to coerce the bees to empty them and backfill the main hive, which they did for the most part.

The langs were given to me. They were on deep frames, I only had med equipment. So I quick made some shims and off to the races. These hives have done very well.

Lang 1- 2 deeps when received. I've added 3 supers, harvested 2 and left one for them for winter.
Lang 2- 1 deep when received. I've added 1 med for brood, and 2 supers. I harvested 1 super, left one for winter
Lang 3- 2 deeps when received. I've added 3 supers, harvested 2 and left one for winter. 

The harvested supers from the langs produced 10 gallons of honey. My exact super numbers could be off a bit... some were partials so I fed them back over empty boxes above the inner cover. I sell honey to fund the hobby... kind of a self supporting deal.

That is the current layout. I'm sure I'll recall more thoughts after I hit send. Overall I like to layens to work with, the jury is out on wintering. I hope they will do better than the langs in the past. I am not treating any of them, so I expect losses.


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> Update time:


Bjorn,

I commented about the TF (see my own thread - different subject).

I am glad you are beginning to enjoy the real benefits of the long hives - the convenience of working them.
Same for me - there is no looking back once you figure the long hives out, how they operate, their strengths and weaknesses.
I actually attempted to run a workshop this August specifically on the horizontal hives - too bad, but the folks missed/ignored most of my points and instead were after general beekeeping (pretty common).

Thanks for the reporting.
There is much to talk in the winter ahead.

So in general, my own verdict is that the long hives are great resource hives.
This is where I go to steal bees from.
This is where I make the splits from.
This is where I will steal eggs from/make queens from/etc, etc - any kind of apiary expansion/repairs are centered around my long hives.
I also use the long hives for active storage of the honey/combs - guarded by a gate keeper colony.
Frame cleanup - another good usage.
That is their primary function - bee production and general utility.

The bees really like to make bees in the long hives, BUT less so about the honey production.
It feels the bees feel almost too comfortable in the long hives and know exactly when they have enough resources for themselves and don't bother overworking.
This is very much colony dependent - I have seen it all, the whole range by now (but still, they seem to like to make more bees than honey in the long hives - maybe need some brood-nest restrictions).

Now the honey production - that's where the vertical hives are coming.
My other project in progress - compact vertical hives (CVH) compatible to the long hives.


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## GregB

I just could not pass by this one:
*The long "coffin" is the easiest. 
LOL*


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## bjorn

GregV said:


> The bees really like to make bees in the long hives, BUT less so about the honey production.


I totally agree. My honey harvest was 100% from the langs. But the coffin is spilling over with bees, very calm bees at that. I've opened it all summer... they don't seem the least bit disturbed. Obviously this time of year they have begun to defend a bit, but overall very calm.


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> I totally agree. My honey harvest was 100% from the langs. But the coffin is spilling over with bees, very calm bees at that. I've opened it all summer... they don't seem the least bit disturbed. Obviously this time of year they have begun to defend a bit, but overall very calm.


Exactly.
I have the same experience, Bjorn.
I am sold on the idea that certain hives definitely make bees to feel more comfortable. There is certainly something to it.

Many even commercial beeks in the East Euro keep around several "coffins" (mostly Dadants) to be used exactly as the bee resource hives - to be fed into their main business (usually honey).
But others still figured out to squeeze good honey out of the long hives too (takes a proper bee though, usually NOT Italian).
This lady runs 50-60 long Dadants per-annually - for honey.
25-30 frame coffins using the local Ukrainian bee - all she does.


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYAtP2ADwUxc_YAq0dko5Rw


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## little_john

GregV said:


> I just could not pass by this one:
> *The long "coffin" is the easiest.
> LOL*


Couldn't agree more. In addition to the uses already listed, I'd like to add the use of the 'coffin' as a stash hive.

If you (meaning anybody reading this) should get involved with queen-rearing or any other procedure in which the odd frame or two becomes 'homeless' for a few days - no worries - just stash it in your coffin on the wrong side of the follower board (one with an inch or two gap at the bottom is best) then, if there's brood in that comb, the bees will detect it and cover the frame accordingly. Then, when it comes time to replace that frame in it's previous home, just pull it, shake the bees off back into the coffin, and you're good to go. I call it 'bed and breakfasting' - seems a reasonable expression to use.  And they're great for clearing otherwise unwanted frames of a few square inches of remaining brood or partial stores (as already mentioned). *I love 'em.


Bjorn *- to improve the honey yield - consider adopting the same methodology as Adair and Poppleton, and to some extent Doolittle. Specifically, (and assuming a strong colony), maintain the brood-chamber within the central area of the hive, which will then cause stores to be built-up at either end. Adair didn't have the opportunity to use a QX or equivalent for this purpose, and although Poppleton did - he chose not to use them. Doolittle however used two partition/ follower boards as QX's to define the centralised brood nest in his 'short-ish' Long Hive containing 15 frames. He did use a super (sometimes two) during the honey-flow, but before the flow and afterwards he reverted to the single 15-frame box configuration, the brood-chamber of which he further reduced to 6-frames for over-wintering.

With regard to hive entrances, both Doolittle and Poppleton favoured a bottom entrance located centrally within one long side, so that entrance could be described as being 'cold-way', with the bees passing through the brood chamber in order to reach the stores areas.
Adair however, was adamant that a Long Hive entrance needed to be at one end, broadside-on to the combs, or 'warm-way'.

I've tried both positions, and can't see that it makes a huge difference - but it might be worthwhile making provision for both types of entrance, and trying them both out (one at a time, of course) as an experiment.

'best
LJ


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## GregB

little_john said:


> ............use of the 'coffin' as a stash hive. .......
> I call it 'bed and breakfasting' - seems a reasonable expression to use.


Indeed.
I guess I call it "parking".
One can park (short or long term) all kinds of things in the long hive - brood, honey, combs with bee bread (prime wax moth target), even entire separate colonies (without blocking the access to the main colony).
Combines are stupid simple too - just set the incoming frames behind a follower board and walk away (the follower board can be removed later - whenever you get to it, not critical).


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## GregB

little_john said:


> With regard to hive entrances, both Doolittle and Poppleton favoured a bottom entrance located centrally within one long side, so that entrance could be described as being 'cold-way', with the bees passing through the brood chamber in order to reach the stores areas.
> Adair however, was adamant that a Long Hive entrance needed to be at one end, broadside-on to the combs, or 'warm-way'.
> 
> I've tried both positions, and can't see that it makes a huge difference - but it might be worthwhile making provision for both types of entrance, and trying them both out (one at a time, of course) as an experiment.


I do like my corner entrances.
In fact, for the shortish long hive, I am totally ready to switch to the "warm way".
If I make another hybrid box, I will set it in the "warm way".
Primary reason - really helpful that the brood nest will be shifted towards the entrance - thus you will have pretty good natural separation between the mostly-brood frames and honey-only frames.


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## bjorn

My lower vent holes are centered on the lower edge of the short sides of the hives. In the coffin, all are screened except one. The bees are using primarily using this as an entrance. If I understand correctly this is warm way... they enter and run into the broadside of a frame. Actually this hole is in the 2" empty space below the frames. There are also four 1/2" holes on the lower corner of the long side of the hive and two single 1/2" holes spaced equally up the corner. It is set up in Greg's design. These would be cold way as I understand it. They seem to like these upper entrances as well. I've just closed them off to sway them to start brooding downward in preparation for wintering. I'll put my front "foyer" follower board in soon, again following Greg_V's method from earlier in this string.


----------



## Gray Goose

bjorn said:


> I totally agree. My honey harvest was 100% from the langs. But the coffin is spilling over with bees, very calm bees at that. I've opened it all summer... they don't seem the least bit disturbed. Obviously this time of year they have begun to defend a bit, but overall very calm.


I have 2 of the long double deep from the plans in DR Leos book, I like that the deep lang frame fits.
So you can start it with a split or a whole hive. But I do not get much honey from them, I do steel honey with bees attached when making splits. then add back frames from dead outs, rinse repeat. Last year had one I split 6 ways in the spring when I found a bunch of swarm cells, this year with 2 I had 8 splits, so for me they are beauties' for increase.
24th pic down,, at Natural Beekeeping | Horizontal Hives | Do-It-Yourself Plans
if you like the way the "coffin" hive works have a look. I modified it a lot, have 2x4 stud walls with 3.5 inch of insulation and drawers under, it is the first hive to have swarm cells almost every year. after spring splits the "best" queen goes back in for the next year.

Also got most of the honey from the lang setups. I do like both they each have a place in the yard so to speak.

GG


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Also got most of the honey from the lang setups. I do like both they each have a place in the yard so to speak.


Yep.
Appears to be the trend once you tried the both ways and see how they work.


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## GregB

Saturday night was doing rounds - inspecting the winter setup status and applying LAD while at it.

Here pictured are two hives, very similar from the outside.
But inside:

the hive with blue dots is my Layens-style hybrid.
the other is a double-deep Lang of my "student".

I easily flipped through my hybrid frames, like a book.
Easily dribbled the bees with LA while flipping the frames.

The Lang, on the other hand.... whew...
I can not lift the top box for the life of me (heavy as the death itself).
So one must pull and dribble the frames out, one-by-one, and set them elsewhere temporarily.
Then remove the upper box so it is out of the way.
Then inspect/dribble the lower box, again, frame by a frame.
Then put it all back into one.
All this with the bees crawling all over (lots of bees; at least not as feisty as some others I got).
Gosh.... What a hassle this double-deep Lang to handle.
So basically, I did not do anything.
Looked at it and and walked away.

To compare, the compact vertical is very much workable by a box - even I can do it.
Flipped the boxes on their sides - a quick dribble and done.

And so working by a small box (as a whole) or working by a single large frame is a good way forward, as for me.


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## crofter

Deep Layens is coming together. The idea of converting Lang boxes for layens and rotated Lang frames kind of swerved over to making a dedicated hive to take the Layens width frames or Lang frames rotated 90 degrees. I presently have 21 1/2" depth which is more than enough for the langs. The Layens style frames I make will just nicely accept one and a half sheets of deep lang foundation which would make an 18" frame with no length trimming of the sheets. Question. Is there any advantage or tradeoff with having that deep a frame?

In the pics below the large one piece Lang style frame is one of the ones I made up to fit in 2 stacked medium boxes. Just trying for size here and comparing to tied together medium frames (which I could extract from) Internal length inside measurement 1 meter.

Next move into the house beside the woodstove to glue and screw. No heat in the shop!


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## GregB

crofter said:


> I presently have 21 1/2" depth which is more than enough for the langs. The Layens style frames I make will just nicely accept one and a half sheets of deep lang foundation which would make an 18" frame with no length trimming of the sheets. Question. Is there any advantage or tradeoff with having that deep a frame?


My rigs have ~2" under frame - no hard rules - bees don't build under them the frames being plenty deep as is.
Clear advantage - you plug Lang frames at will.
You can even stand the Lang frames into there freely - I have done that and collected honey that way - the easiest "supering" ever.
(who said you need a hanging frame????? Just freely stand the frames into the coffin and pull them when ready to harvest).

No moisture issue in winter due to under-frame buffer.

A trade-off - in spring that lower area is cold and bees down go down there - which is fine and to be aware of - the bees will just stick closer to the top bars.
You will need to *ruthlessly *squeeze the bees using dummy frames in spring (if they spill around it - that's OK) - they gradually will go down and as they grow stronger - else they will spread along the top bars, but will not go down too well (until warmer season).


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## crofter

I will soon be making my entrance openings on the deep Layens. I have a question about how far up from the bottom. I expect I will be using some siamezed and rotated Lang frames as well as some Layens style but lengthened to take the lang foundation. Should the entrance be below the bottom of the longest frames or would it interfere if the frames were a bit "in the face" of the bees coming in. I have used round hole entrances below the handhold on Lang boxes and the bees dont seem to have any problem fanning out across the sidebars and then in between the frames but dont know if that is optimum however. 

Presently considering 1/2 by 6 inch slots near the bottom corners, left and right on the long side of the hive but open to suggestions.


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## GregB

crofter said:


> Should the entrance be below the bottom of the longest frames or would it interfere if the frames were a bit "in the face" of the bees coming in.......but dont know if that is optimum however.


I never thought or cared about this, let alone tried to "optimize" something I don't even understand what it is (the optimal entrance for the bees). 
As long as the internals of the hive do not actually block the entrance from inside rendering it non-passable, it is good enough IMO.

Rather my decision of how high the entrance from the hive floor level is decided by these:

a minor pile of bees on the floor should not be blocking an entrance in winter (if things are no checked/fixed often, which happens)
minor ice/snow build-up (inside or outside) should not be blocking the entrance either (again to avoid unnecessary attention)
no landing board is designed it as unnecessary - this means that about 2-3 inches of the external vertical hive wall span just below the entrance is beneficial - it is vertical "landing pad" if needed.
with long hives, it is not necessary to be able to clean the active hive from dead bees through the entrance

So I raised my entrances a bit higher than depicted here:













__





Layens Hive | Free Plans | Natural Beekeeping







horizontalhive.com


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## crofter

Sounds good Greg; I will be able to come up about 2" from the bottom and still be below the bottom of a rotated Lang. The frames I will make can have approx.18" sidebars and use Lang plastic foundation full length.


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## GregB

crofter said:


> Sounds good Greg; I will be able to come up about 2" from the bottom and still be below the bottom of a rotated Lang. The frames I will make can have approx.18" sidebars and use Lang plastic foundation full length.


Good.

Some of my hybrids are rather tight that way.
There is little room for the bees to enter and maneuver around the frames facing the entrance - but they still do OK.

This has to do with the sizing of the repurposed Lang boxes - this is what I get with the three medium boxes converted into a Layens setup. @bjorn has done something similar (reported above) and seems to work OK.


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## crofter

The pieces of 2x6 and 2x8 stack up to ~21 1/2" so I have wiggle room there. It is nice to have a size frame that can use available size foundation easily or transfers in from established Lang frames. If it makes a way to move from stacked lang operation into something that can work well for personal honey without much lifting I will play with it more.


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## bjorn

I thought a bit of follow up was due here. I enjoy working these hives. Access is easy for the beekeeper. I have a few thoughts on them on how I may modify going forward. 
However, I must preface this post with a disclaimer that I lost all of my hives this winter. The short story is mites. I will likely post about that in the main forum as I have thoughts and questions. 
I do not believe that the deep hives contributed in either a positive or negative manner. I have tried to be TF and have learned from many dead hives in the last nine years that my area is not conducive to that.
As you all know, beekeeping is about location. Some are isolated enough or have the right strains to do TF... I am not and do not. Hard lesson learned too slowly unfortunately for me and a lot of bees.


1- The long hive is my favorite. It is the easiest to work, has ample "storage" space so I use it for cleaning of wet frames. The bees in this box seem very relaxed... might be the strain, not sure. If I have a strong enough colony to fill it, which would be a great "problem" to have, I suspect I could simply put a division board in and create a queenless half to create a split. The only downside to this hive is the size from a beekeeper's point of view. It is in no way, shape or form mobile. I don't move mine, so not an issue. Cleaning will be a challenge... particularly due to the dead out. I will likely move it on my golf cart because that's how I do things. 
2- Piecing together comb in the deep frames is an exercise in futility. I set the drawn comb on my cross bars and taped or rubber banded the comb to the frame. The bees didn't seem to like this. The comb bowed in the warm summer heat. My observation is that they will draw beautiful new comb that eliminates these issues. And imagine that, they start at the top and work down. Another example of human intervention getting in the way. 
3- Color of the hive did not seem to make much difference. I had extreme bearding and tried white vs brown. Same bearding. The added ventilation seemed to make the biggest difference. Again, I suppose I should have learned that quicker. 
4- Bees seem to take to the sideways, zip tied med frames just fine. I would not say they prefer them, but they "accept" them and do fill them
5- Burlap works pretty well for inner cover material. It breathes better than feed bags. The downside is it does not hold up to propolis as well as feed bags. 
6- I may modify the entrances. I like the idea of a slotted entrance with a sliding restrictor. I noticed some back-up during heavy flows. I don't get that as much in my langs with more open entrances. 
7- As discussed earlier... these hives seem better for making bees than honey. They all boomed with bees, not so much with honey. However, this will be advantageous for splits, nucs, etc. 

So now my questions. 

1- How do you apply treatment to these hives... particularly OA. I'm at a crossroad in my beekeeping where I need to learn the ways of treatment. I like the idea of a dribble, but on a deep frame I suspect proper dispersal may be an issue. Perhaps a spray bottle? Vapor of course requires a vaporizer and my 1/2" entrances may limit that. Again, that may be another reason to modify the entrances. 
2- What method are you using for mite counts? My langs have SBB's and slide out plastic. I don't have that in the deep hives. I suppose I could add a drawer or something... but that's major modification. 

I appreciate all of the prior comments... this has been quite an educational string. Thanks to all contributors!


----------



## Gray Goose

bjorn said:


> I thought a bit of follow up was due here. I enjoy working these hives. Access is easy for the beekeeper. I have a few thoughts on them on how I may modify going forward.
> However, I must preface this post with a disclaimer that I lost all of my hives this winter. The short story is mites. I will likely post about that in the main forum as I have thoughts and questions.
> I do not believe that the deep hives contributed in either a positive or negative manner. I have tried to be TF and have learned from many dead hives in the last nine years that my area is not conducive to that.
> As you all know, beekeeping is about location. Some are isolated enough or have the right strains to do TF... I am not and do not. Hard lesson learned too slowly unfortunately for me and a lot of bees.
> 
> 
> 1- The long hive is my favorite. It is the easiest to work, has ample "storage" space so I use it for cleaning of wet frames. The bees in this box seem very relaxed... might be the strain, not sure. If I have a strong enough colony to fill it, which would be a great "problem" to have, I suspect I could simply put a division board in and create a queenless half to create a split. The only downside to this hive is the size from a beekeeper's point of view. It is in no way, shape or form mobile. I don't move mine, so not an issue. Cleaning will be a challenge... particularly due to the dead out. I will likely move it on my golf cart because that's how I do things.
> 2- Piecing together comb in the deep frames is an exercise in futility. I set the drawn comb on my cross bars and taped or rubber banded the comb to the frame. The bees didn't seem to like this. The comb bowed in the warm summer heat. My observation is that they will draw beautiful new comb that eliminates these issues. And imagine that, they start at the top and work down. Another example of human intervention getting in the way.
> 3- Color of the hive did not seem to make much difference. I had extreme bearding and tried white vs brown. Same bearding. The added ventilation seemed to make the biggest difference. Again, I suppose I should have learned that quicker.
> 4- Bees seem to take to the sideways, zip tied med frames just fine. I would not say they prefer them, but they "accept" them and do fill them
> 5- Burlap works pretty well for inner cover material. It breathes better than feed bags. The downside is it does not hold up to propolis as well as feed bags.
> 6- I may modify the entrances. I like the idea of a slotted entrance with a sliding restrictor. I noticed some back-up during heavy flows. I don't get that as much in my langs with more open entrances.
> 7- As discussed earlier... these hives seem better for making bees than honey. They all boomed with bees, not so much with honey. However, this will be advantageous for splits, nucs, etc.
> 
> So now my questions.
> 
> 1- How do you apply treatment to these hives... particularly OA. I'm at a crossroad in my beekeeping where I need to learn the ways of treatment. I like the idea of a dribble, but on a deep frame I suspect proper dispersal may be an issue. Perhaps a spray bottle? Vapor of course requires a vaporizer and my 1/2" entrances may limit that. Again, that may be another reason to modify the entrances.
> 2- What method are you using for mite counts? My langs have SBB's and slide out plastic. I don't have that in the deep hives. I suppose I could add a drawer or something... but that's major modification.
> 
> I appreciate all of the prior comments... this has been quite an educational string. Thanks to all contributors!


sorry to hear you lost the bees.
for my long deep lang I OA Vap in the entrance, if the bees can get out the Vap can get in.
you may need a double dose if lots of vap goes past the divider.

7- As discussed earlier... these hives seem better for making bees than honey. They all boomed with bees, not so much with honey. However, this will be advantageous for splits, nucs, etc.
I see this exact thing, I had a 15 frame wide hive with the 2 frame set up it was 30 frames of bees.
opened one day to find Queen cells and made 6 5 frame NUCS. totally emptied it. cleaned it scraped it .
the best queen of the 6 hatched was put back in and is in it this winter, so it is a early booming hive, and I plan to split it., hence I put in a "potential breeder queen"
you could try the sponges or shop towels if the Vap is not working for you.

IMO a 100% dead out does dictate some sort of treatment plan.

GG


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## bjorn

Gray Goose said:


> IMO a 100% dead out does dictate some sort of treatment plan.


Yes sir... this is not my first full dead out either. I keep trying different techniques... wrapping, not wrapping, extra ventilation, now deep frames. But I've been avoiding the elephant in the room. Each year there is a pile of dead mites on the bottom board and on the dead bees. I have to look at it from an animal husbandry point of view. If my goat was sick, I'd give her treatment. This is really no different. Actually the no treatment seems cruel in hindsight. If I was isolated, it would be different. I have 4-5 other beeks within flying distance. TF is simply not doable here. 
What model vaporizer do you have or is it homemade?


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> I lost all of my hives this winter


Sorry to hear, bjorn.
I did warn you. 

The hives have very little to do with the mite control/prevention - this much we know.
The hives are much more about the ergonomics but also about the ability to winter in energy efficient fashion (talking wintering smaller clusters - which matters).

I am still at 100% (12 units) this winter.
Testing out the brood-less organic acid treatment - happy with it so far.
Just in a couple of months I will have my final resume on this plan (but very optimistic).


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## bjorn

GregB said:


> Testing out the brood-less organic acid treatment


Have you posted on your approach to this? Are you still using the OA dribble (or spray more specifically)?


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> Have you posted on your approach to this? Are you still using the OA dribble (or spray more specifically)?


Yes, I spoke about it.

Two org acid administrations over the season.
A single OA dribble in early/mid summer - to so create a "clean start" - done while *brood-less.*
A single Lactic Acid (LA) dribble done in late fall - to mop up any mite buildup pre-winter so to protect the winter bees (mites from natural build-up and cross-colony infestation) - done while *brood-less.*

OK, here:




> each of these 12 units had OA dribble administered during summer *once *
> [*]---- (no particular schedule but whenever I managed to make them brood-less OR immediately after I caught them as a swarm)
> [*]11 units had *single *LA dribble administered on Nov 6/7 weekend
> [*]---- (but the "student" unit as I hated taking apart the Lang double-deep - will be a test case where they went through a second brood break)
> [*]thus, *two *alternating organic acid treatments applied during the *brood breaks*.












GregV's Alternative way to keep (have?) bees.


In both cases 1 and 2, the queens subsequently relay the empty cells. Pretty soon it becomes untraceable mess Thanks for the detailed reply, GregV. It was helpful. Based on what you describe, it sounds fairly consistent with VSH, excepting the part of an inconsistent laying pattern right out of...




www.beesource.com


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> I enjoy working these hives. Access is easy for the beekeeper. I have a few thoughts on them on how I may modify going forward.


Glad you like them.
Me too.
Do share.


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## bjorn

GregB said:


> I did warn you.


Yes, you did. Sometimes I am a slow learner... or in denial. 
I seem to recall in one of your posts that you used Randy Oliver's "weak" mixture... is that correct? With sugar or glycerine?


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> Cleaning will be a challenge... particularly due to the dead out.


The cleaning is easy for me.
The dead out - well just scoop the stuff out.
I use a wide scraper tool and a paint brush.

Granted the hive is large enough with ample under-frame space - even cleaning an active hive is easy.
Frames can be moved right to left as needed and exposing the space to cleanup.
You can also simply scrape under the frames with something like this:


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> Yes, you did. Sometimes I am a slow learner... or in denial.
> I seem to recall in one of your posts that you used Randy Oliver's "weak" mixture... is that correct? With sugar or glycerine?


Well - I did the TF drill for 5 years myself. 

Wanted to check if I am an idiot and was doing "something wrong" (as typically is suggested).
No, there was nothing I was doing wrong.
Rather it was a wrong suggestion for my particular area. 

Yes - exactly, the "weak" mixture by Randy O. so to cause the least possible harm.
I did the exact 2.5% recipe with sugar syrup.
But now I want to try the glycerine version as it should be even safer for the bees (though mid-summer is not as critical).


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> 7- As discussed earlier... these hives seem better for making bees than honey. They all boomed with bees, not so much with honey.


Btw, these hives have been historically better with the late flows.
That's how the peasant way of "set it and forget it" works - a single honey harvest after the fields are harvested.
This is after presumably swarming in the season's start (which would a routine back then).

I have to say, my strongest hives did exactly that - not much honey to speak off until the very summer end - then they loaded up on the Golden rod driven flow (we had a good one in 2021).
I was pretty happy that way.
Considering that I rebuilt my entire yard from one hive at the season start and had no strong colonies to be working on honey through the summer.
So yes - the long "coffins" are great for early season expansion projects and (IF get lucky) may still bring in late honey too.


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> 1- How do you apply treatment to these hives... particularly OA. I'm at a crossroad in my beekeeping where I need to learn the ways of treatment. I like the idea of a dribble, but on a deep frame I suspect proper dispersal may be an issue. Perhaps a spray bottle? Vapor of course requires a vaporizer and my 1/2" entrances may limit that. Again, that may be another reason to modify the entrances.
> 2- What method are you using for mite counts? My langs have SBB's and slide out plastic. I don't have that in the deep hives. I suppose I could add a drawer or something... but that's major modification.


1 - I simply use $5 spray bottle.
I measured that a full single spray is 2.5 ml in my bottle.
Randy O. suggests 5 ml of the OA solution per a seam, BUT - that is a seam of Lang frames.
So, I decided I will be doing ~5ml per a frame side - that is exactly what I have been doing.
Pull a frame out - give it a couple of spray per the side (depending how many bees! - maybe a single sometimes) - done.

Because you do this when doing expansion/maintenance work - you pull the frames out anyway - this activity is then combined with your other projects and is not really any separate activity.
None of that "treat, treat, treat" busy business in August that everyone does. 
By August you are all done with the treatments already.

(ADDED:

do a mop-up after brooding is done in October/November
best to do as soon as the brooding is done so to preserve the winter bees
a single or a double dribble - I think the LA or OA+gly would be the best choice here
again, it is best combined with the pre-winter colony audit - which should be done anyway regardless
)

2 - I only did cross-the-board counts one seasn - 2020.
I wanted to be sure it is the mites are killing my bees, and NOT me "doing something wrong".
Sure enough in September my counts were terminally high everywhere - that much I confirmed.
At that point does not matter what else you do - terminal counts will kill most any bees in most any hive.

If doing the counts in August/September - sugar shake is enough - it is precise enough to show you the terminal counts (which what you will normally find in August/September).
If doing the counts in May/June/July - alcohol is better - the counts will be too low for the sugar, to go give you actionable numbers.

Frankly, I will not be bothering with the counts - I have established for myself that IF not treated in my area, the counts will be terminal (even for VSH bees).
So what is there to be found with the counting?
I don't pretend to be "breeding" the bees and so that metric is not useful for me.
Just the observable behavior and colony status give plenty of actionable information.

After 5 year run I know - no treatments here mean severe losses (count or no count).
So I will be just doing the "clean start" preventive treating and be done.


----------



## little_john

bjorn said:


> 7- As discussed earlier... these hives seem better for making bees than honey. They all boomed with bees, not so much with honey. However, this will be advantageous for splits, nucs, etc.


Hello Bjorn. Yes - because that is the underlying rationale of this type of hive (the extra-deep long hive), that is: they are intended to be bee-centric, rather than honey-centric.

So - such hives are ideal for wintering in hostile climates, or for use in 'leave-alone-as-much-as-possible' scenarios where hands-on management is either minimal or absent, or where foraging conditions from month to month are highly uncertain, and where bees are required to 'look to themselves' for survival.

If extra-deep long hives are to be used in milder climates, or in situations where regular management is practiced, then an in-season reduction in bee numbers could be made (similar to the methodology of the 6-frame Commercial guy) by the pragmatic use of one or a pair of partition boards which, by reducing in-hive honey consumption following the flow, would automatically increase the honey harvest yield.

In addition, honey stored towards the tops of extra-deep frames can always be harvested by cutting it out if provision is made for this beforehand by suitable comb supports, and the combs duly repaired afterwards and re-stocked with sugar syrup, should this fit into the owner's beekeeping philosophy.

By providing suitable space within the height of the hive roof, it would also be possible to place shallow supers above the frames during the honey flow. It may come as a surprise to learn that within the 2nd Edition of his book, De Layens advocated the use of pairs of such honey-boxes. Here is the graphic he used:










'best,
LJ


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## GregB

little_john said:


> Hello Bjorn. Yes - because that is the underlying rationale of this type of hive (the extra-deep long hive), that is: they are intended to be bee-centric, rather than honey-centric....


@little_john and all,
In case you did not see this yet (but I did post and spoke of this already).
Yes - the long hives shine where there originally meant to be.......but....

Here is a very innovative solution to actually make the long hive "honey-centric" (while requiring only marginally more work).
It really works for the crop bumping (and mite control purposes too).
Easy to make and easy to use.
*Brood controlling cage* (4-frame as demonstrated - after much testing the author's favorite size).
Why I didn't think of this? Duh.
More related videos on the channel (construction and usage details - highly useful also).


----------



## crofter

I am a bit further along with my Layens and deep Lang hive. It can use my custom 13" deep Langstroth frames in two rows of 9 which can be supered with 10 frame boxes as the pictures show, or the 13" Lang frames can be stood on their end If the hive is used Layens style. Connected pairs of medium dept frames can stand on end. Notice frame rests on both ends and sides.

The removable center divider provides frame rests when the Lang frames are used lengthwise or when two Layens colonies are housed. Actually you could have a Layens vertical colony in one end and a conventional Langstroth colony at the same time. I think it has endless possibilities for someone who wants to play around and compare Langstroth and Layens equipment. Regular available depth frames of either one or custom depth up to19". I have cut the depth to 20"


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## Gray Goose

crofter said:


> I am a bit further along with my Layens and deep Lang hive. It can use my custom 13" deep Langstroth frames in two rows of 9 which can be supered with 10 frame boxes as the pictures show, or the 13" Lang frames can be stood on their end If the hive is used Layens style. Connected pairs of medium dept frames can stand on end. Notice frame rests on both ends and sides.
> 
> The removable center divider provides frame rests when the Lang frames are used lengthwise or when two Layens colonies are housed. Actually you could have a Layens vertical colony in one end and a conventional Langstroth colony at the same time. I think it has endless possibilities for someone who wants to play around and compare Langstroth and Layens equipment. Regular available depth frames of either one or custom depth up to19". I have cut the depth to 20"


2 M lang frames , what is that about a pack and a 1/2 of smokes in Ca $$, the ones you made look good, not sure I would buy 10 Lang frames to get a 5 frame hive going.
IMO you could put 1 frame of foundation in the ones you made and let them finish.

Be neat to see bees in it.

GG


----------



## crofter

Gray Goose said:


> 2 M lang frames , what is that about a pack and a 1/2 of smokes in Ca $$, the ones you made look good, not sure I would buy 10 Lang frames to get a 5 frame hive going.
> IMO you could put 1 frame of foundation in the ones you made and let them finish.
> 
> Be neat to see bees in it.
> GG


The coupled mediums I just did to size them up and possible for extracting purposes. Since I fingered out that I could super them with my existing 10 frame boxes I have likely dismissed that but some people may find that interesting or the possibility to populate with drawn mediums they may be running.

The 13" deep lang frame with a sheet and a half of deep foundation is probably the main way I will go. Making the deep frame ends is fairly easy as is the setting in of the plastic foundation. I may play with letting the bees draw some foundationless in some of them. Have had a few people ask about cut comb honey.

I looked in on one colony that wintered in a single deep 10 frame of the 11 1/4" Dadant depth and really like what I saw. Had no top feed on them and they have lots left. I think the 13" deep ones that fit in the Layens width hive body will not need more than 6 or tops of 7 frames to winter on. Still have the option of also turning those frames vertical to winter on. I wouldnt be surprised if they would winter that way on 5 frames in a well insulated box. It holds 9 frames with lots of room to spare. Judging from last summer, though it was a poor year, I wont even need 9 of those deep frames to stay ahead of the queen in the summer.

Greg has mentioned that with that much brood frame area the bees will be disinclined to put honey up into the supers. I may have to keep them squeezed down to just what the queen will keep full of brood. I think Fusion_power has spoken about only using 7 of the Dadant depth frames. We will cross that bridge when we get to it.

Next step is to make the divider that also provides the inboard support for the Lang frames to set lengthwise on. Then my entrances, trap door and roof and legs.


----------



## GregB

crofter said:


> Greg has mentioned that with that much brood frame area the bees will be disinclined to put honey up into the supers


Frank, 
With my hybrid 12-frame Ukrainian hives this season I mean to keep them reduced to just 10 brood frames (which is plenty).
Then I will try to force them up and see - should work.

It is the longer hives where it is harder to justify all that empty space - as you are trying to force them up.


----------



## jtgoral

Say your good queen is laying 2k eggs/day. During a single brood cycle she will populate 42k cells with eggs and then she can reuse cells where the nurse bee hatched.

How many of your big frames have a total of 42k cells? This is what you need for the broodnest.


----------



## GregB

jtgoral said:


> Say your good queen is laying 2k eggs/day. During a single brood cycle she will populate 42k cells with eggs and then she can reuse cells where the nurse bee hatched.
> 
> How many of your big frames have a total of 42k cells? This is what you need for the broodnest.


It has been well demonstrated in practice - 6 deep Dadant frames is enough for the broodnest.

The minimal and sufficient broodnest in majority of cases should fit onto:
6 Dadants == 6 Ukrainians == 4 Lazutin ~ 7 Layens ~ 8 Lang deep

Anything more only means incomplete frame usage for the brood.

PS: a small fraction of queens will run out of this space - probably yes - just add extra frame if that becomes an issue.


----------



## bjorn

I am modifying my entrance location and space under the frames. I drilled 1 inch ventilation holes in the short sides last year. Most of them I screened. I left one hive's vent hole open and the bees seemed to prefer that as an entrance. It's contrary to what Greg observed. I respect his findings, but it's what I observed in a much less controlled manner. I found the bottom space under the frames littered with junk in the raised entrance hives and cleaner in the low entance(vent hole) hive. Perhaps it's just easier to clean. They have a top entrance for winter, so clogging should not be an issue as bees die. Again theoretical based on unscientific observation. I'm going to try more this way this season and will give feedback later.


----------



## bjorn

Going to these as adjustable entrances. Slide screen out as needed for more capacity. Also, my depth is 3 med boxes








plus a 2x2, so 22" overall.


----------



## jtgoral

GregB said:


> It has been well demonstrated in practice - 6 deep Dadant frames is enough for the broodnest.
> 
> The minimal and sufficient broodnest in majority of cases should fit onto:
> 6 Dadants == 6 Ukrainians == 4 Lazutin ~ 7 Layens ~ 8 Lang deep
> 
> Anything more only means incomplete frame usage for the brood.
> 
> PS: a small fraction of queens will run out of this space - probably yes - just add extra frame if that becomes an issue.


From my calculations ~6 deep Lang frames is enough for a queen laying 2k eggs per day when using 5.4 mm cells. 18 frames for hatched bees.


----------



## GregB

jtgoral said:


> From my calculations ~6 deep Lang frames is enough for a queen laying 2k eggs per day when using 5.4 mm cells. 18 frames for hatched bees.


I simply refer to this guy - he demonstrated his 6-frame Dadant boxes many times in real-life commercial operation.








6-framer - larger-scale, commercial grade, mobile operator


Nothing but 6-frame boxes/medum-size frame (shallow Dadants, technically). (I guess, he still uses some deeps in the very bottom box - in that case they winter in a single Dadant 6-frame box + an empty super below optionally). Another version of pure by-the-box approach. No frame-by-frame...




www.beesource.com


----------



## GregB

bjorn said:


> I left one hive's vent hole open and the bees seemed to prefer that as an entrance. It's contrary to what Greg observed.


I don't follow @bjorn.
Can you draw a picture or post a photo?


----------



## Mikro

Gray Goose said:


> Hi Bjorn,
> 
> the wood of the frame inbetween is not an issue IMO
> You have the answer "Insulation" IMO very over looked item.
> 
> google Buckeye Hive this was used long ago.
> I have put together some this winter. 8F Lang hives.
> View attachment 62105
> View attachment 62106
> 
> 
> I made the inside side 1 5/8 longer, then the outside end 1 5/8 longer as well, added more wood until I had a double wall hive.
> Made 5 hives of D+D+M+M if survival is the primary concern, I would stay with the chimney set up of the lang over the long hive, and try to come up with something with some R value. the standard 3/4 pine is like 1.3 per inch so around 1 R for the normal hive. with 1.5 inch foam and the second wall you can get close to 9 or 10. IMO you will have better over winter survival with Insulation. could even bond 2 inch to your hives for a test before doing the investment of time and funds. As well I plan to use normal supers so you can still use the mediums you now have a supers. My Northern Mich hives winter better in 8 frame, could be a random data point but it works, for me.
> 
> good luck
> 
> GG


Was not able to see any plans googling "Buckeye Hive". Please send me a link.


----------



## Mikro

crofter said:


> Deep Layens is coming together. The idea of converting Lang boxes for layens and rotated Lang frames kind of swerved over to making a dedicated hive to take the Layens width frames or Lang frames rotated 90 degrees. I presently have 21 1/2" depth which is more than enough for the langs. The Layens style frames I make will just nicely accept one and a half sheets of deep lang foundation which would make an 18" frame with no length trimming of the sheets. Question. Is there any advantage or tradeoff with having that deep a frame?
> 
> In the pics below the large one piece Lang style frame is one of the ones I made up to fit in 2 stacked medium boxes. Just trying for size here and comparing to tied together medium frames (which I could extract from) Internal length inside measurement 1 meter.
> 
> Next move into the house beside the woodstove to glue and screw. No heat in the shop!


See you are in Canada. How has the Layens worked out for you?


----------



## Gray Goose

Mikro said:


> Was not able to see any plans googling "Buckeye Hive". Please send me a link.


a google book









The Buckeye Hive






books.google.com





GG


----------



## Mikro

Have you built and used a Lazutin Insulated as laid out in Keeping bees with a smile?


----------



## jtgoral

I used 1.5in XPS insulation foam from Home Depot for walls with a wooden frame made of 2x3 glued to the top. It had a rabbet to accommodate the frames. Entrances were at both ends.

The I switched to long Langs because non-standard Lazutin frames were a huge pain for me in manipulation and extraction.


----------



## Mikro

jtgoral said:


> I used 1.5in XPS insulation foam from Home Depot for walls with a wooden frame made of 2x3 glued to the top. It had a rabbet to accommodate the frames. Entrances were at both ends.
> 
> The I switched to long Langs because non-standard Lazutin frames were a huge pain for me in manipulation and extraction.


Please post some photos.


----------



## jtgoral

Mikro said:


> Please post some photos.


My old Lazutin:


----------



## jtgoral

Mikro said:


> Please post some photos.


My old Long Lang (Aka Lang Dartington) had a place for 21 frames but could be divided into 2x 10 frames
:


















With 2 dividers I could make 3x 6frame over 6 frame:









And this is what I use today: 3x 6FR over 6FR. All are 6FR boxes, no Long with dividers any more.


----------



## little_john

Mikro said:


> Was not able to see any plans googling "Buckeye Hive". Please send me a link.


Plans ?









It was just a winter cover which sat over a standard beehive, which - in it's day - was filled with chaff. Made by the Buckeye Manufacturing Company of Ohio. who's main product was poultry incubators. You don't need plans to build such a simple box and lid.
.LJ


----------



## bjorn

GregB said:


> I don't follow @bjorn.
> Can you draw a picture or post a photo?










I have 2 holes drilled down here. I screened them in 3 of 4 hives. In 1 hive I left one unscreened. The bees used it as an entrance and seemed to favor it over the front entrance holes.
Greg, you had done a study about the bees preferred entrance in these hives. I believe your observation was they preferred the top entrance. I was simply pointing out that my observation was a preference to the bottom entrance.


----------



## bjorn

I plan to put together some nucs this year as well. Winter time allowed for lots of beek video watching and some tinkering in the shop. I built this simple adapter so I can add some lang frames on top of the layens 6 frame nucs(also my swarm traps). I made 2 sizes for med or deep lang frames. I can use them to feed frames of stores to the layens if needed for winter.
















They could also be used for introducing nucs to a layens box.


----------



## bjorn

I made a dozen or so layens style frames last winter. They were time consuming to produce. I've been trying to find a faster way. 

I have a lot of empty med frames so I decided to try this.
Drill top ears for a piece of #9 wire.
Cut bottom bars out and trim to 11.5"
Insert rod then glue bottom bar to end bars.
Cut plastic foundation starter strips.
Fasten 3 strips at top, mid, low position.
These should do just as well as the bamboo skewers I was using.

Pretty quick mod for open layen frame.
AND recycles a bunch of frames I had.


----------



## Tigger19687

bjorn said:


> I made a dozen or so layens style frames last winter. They were time consuming to produce. I've been trying to find a faster way.
> 
> I have a lot of empty med frames so I decided to try this.
> Drill top ears for a piece of #9 wire.
> Cut bottom bars out and trim to 11.5"
> Insert rod then glue bottom bar to end bars.
> Cut plastic foundation starter strips.
> Fasten 3 strips at top, mid, low position.
> These should do just as well as the bamboo skewers I was using.
> Pretty quick mod for open layen frame.
> AND recycles a bunch of frames I had.


Will you router out the sides for bees to Wal around?
the way you have it, wouldn't they just propolis the whole sides together. That would be a biotch to get undone if u had a bee that les to propolis everything


----------



## BEE J

bjorn said:


> I plan to put together some nucs this year as well. Winter time allowed for lots of beek video watching and some tinkering in the shop. I built this simple adapter so I can add some lang frames on top of the layens 6 frame nucs(also my swarm traps). I made 2 sizes for med or deep lang frames. I can use them to feed frames of stores to the layens if needed for winter.
> View attachment 68833
> 
> View attachment 68832
> 
> They could also be used for introducing nucs to a layens box.


This is neat! Your doing a great job, keep it up, man!


----------



## bjorn

Tigger19687 said:


> Will you router out the sides for bees to Wal around?
> the way you have it, wouldn't they just propolis the whole sides together. That would be a biotch to get undone if u had a bee that les to propolis everything


No need for router work. Think about looking at the top of a box full of lang frames. There's a gap between each frame set by the width of the side bars of the frames. No different if you rotate them 90 degrees. The layens frames I built have side bars that are routed thinner from about 6 inches(from top) down. So they space themselves just like normal lang frames do.


----------



## Tigger19687

Ahhh ok, I couldn't tell from the pics


----------



## BeeRussell

GregB said:


> Like I said many times - why bother with that temp, voodoo shim?
> Just make your hive just a tad deeper and make that compatibility permanent and done with it.
> It is really that simple.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I said many times - bees don't care.
> Turn the cells 90 degrees and be done with it - bees will totally use the cells.
> That simple it is.
> 
> Dr. Leo does all bunch of unnecessary moves just to stay true to his dimensions as if that magic Layens format is irreplaceable. Not so.
> 
> Build to this size (attached) and be done with it.


I am new to the forum. I have notice quite a few of your comments. I haven't been able to get a full picture of your hive preference. You seem to like horizontal hives and seem to have created a modified extra deep frame hive that you can super. I am very curious. Is there a thread already with a summation of your hives and practices?

Eager to learn. I live in the hot/humid South.

Thanks


----------



## GregB

BeeRussell said:


> I am new to the forum. I have notice quite a few of your comments. I haven't been able to get a full picture of your hive preference. You seem to like horizontal hives and seem to have created a modified extra deep frame hive that you can super. I am very curious. Is there a thread already with a summation of your hives and practices?
> 
> Eager to learn. I live in the hot/humid South.
> 
> Thanks


I don't really have a personal summation.
Maybe I should create one.

Very briefly, I have a fleet of Ukrainian hives of about 25(?) of them.
Starting from 6-frame mobile, multi-purpose units - to 10-frame - to 12-frame - to 16-frame - to 20-frame finally.
Currently looking for a free chest freezer so to convert it into Ukrainian hive too as an experiment.
Also have vertical multi-body hive(s) fully compatible to the same Ukrainians.

For now, look here:
Assorted existing "horizontal hive" topics - from elsewhere. | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> I don't really have a personal summation.
> Maybe I should create one.


Yes! Please do!


----------



## BeeRussell

bjorn said:


> I plan to put together some nucs this year as well. Winter time allowed for lots of beek video watching and some tinkering in the shop. I built this simple adapter so I can add some lang frames on top of the layens 6 frame nucs(also my swarm traps). I made 2 sizes for med or deep lang frames. I can use them to feed frames of stores to the layens if needed for winter.
> View attachment 68833
> 
> View attachment 68832
> 
> They could also be used for introducing nucs to a layens box.


Looks cool. Might be a good bit of ladder/burr comb between the nuc and the super. I like the concept.


----------



## BeeRussell

jtgoral said:


> My old Long Lang (Aka Lang Dartington) had a place for 21 frames but could be divided into 2x 10 frames
> :
> View attachment 68730
> 
> 
> View attachment 68732
> 
> 
> With 2 dividers I could make 3x 6frame over 6 frame:
> View attachment 68733
> 
> 
> And this is what I use today: 3x 6FR over 6FR. All are 6FR boxes, no Long with dividers any more.


I have seen Ian Steepler run (3) 6 frame nucs on a pallet and use (2) 10 frame supers above queen excluders. The possibilities are seemingly endless.


----------



## BeeRussell

bjorn said:


> I thought a bit of follow up was due here. I enjoy working these hives. Access is easy for the beekeeper. I have a few thoughts on them on how I may modify going forward.
> However, I must preface this post with a disclaimer that I lost all of my hives this winter. The short story is mites. I will likely post about that in the main forum as I have thoughts and questions.
> I do not believe that the deep hives contributed in either a positive or negative manner. I have tried to be TF and have learned from many dead hives in the last nine years that my area is not conducive to that.
> As you all know, beekeeping is about location. Some are isolated enough or have the right strains to do TF... I am not and do not. Hard lesson learned too slowly unfortunately for me and a lot of bees.
> 
> 
> 1- The long hive is my favorite. It is the easiest to work, has ample "storage" space so I use it for cleaning of wet frames. The bees in this box seem very relaxed... might be the strain, not sure. If I have a strong enough colony to fill it, which would be a great "problem" to have, I suspect I could simply put a division board in and create a queenless half to create a split. The only downside to this hive is the size from a beekeeper's point of view. It is in no way, shape or form mobile. I don't move mine, so not an issue. Cleaning will be a challenge... particularly due to the dead out. I will likely move it on my golf cart because that's how I do things.
> 2- Piecing together comb in the deep frames is an exercise in futility. I set the drawn comb on my cross bars and taped or rubber banded the comb to the frame. The bees didn't seem to like this. The comb bowed in the warm summer heat. My observation is that they will draw beautiful new comb that eliminates these issues. And imagine that, they start at the top and work down. Another example of human intervention getting in the way.
> 3- Color of the hive did not seem to make much difference. I had extreme bearding and tried white vs brown. Same bearding. The added ventilation seemed to make the biggest difference. Again, I suppose I should have learned that quicker.
> 4- Bees seem to take to the sideways, zip tied med frames just fine. I would not say they prefer them, but they "accept" them and do fill them
> 5- Burlap works pretty well for inner cover material. It breathes better than feed bags. The downside is it does not hold up to propolis as well as feed bags.
> 6- I may modify the entrances. I like the idea of a slotted entrance with a sliding restrictor. I noticed some back-up during heavy flows. I don't get that as much in my langs with more open entrances.
> 7- As discussed earlier... these hives seem better for making bees than honey. They all boomed with bees, not so much with honey. However, this will be advantageous for splits, nucs, etc.
> 
> So now my questions.
> 
> 1- How do you apply treatment to these hives... particularly OA. I'm at a crossroad in my beekeeping where I need to learn the ways of treatment. I like the idea of a dribble, but on a deep frame I suspect proper dispersal may be an issue. Perhaps a spray bottle? Vapor of course requires a vaporizer and my 1/2" entrances may limit that. Again, that may be another reason to modify the entrances.
> 2- What method are you using for mite counts? My langs have SBB's and slide out plastic. I don't have that in the deep hives. I suppose I could add a drawer or something... but that's major modification.
> 
> I appreciate all of the prior comments... this has been quite an educational string. Thanks to all contributors!


I had the same experience. Without some form of mite control, the hive will cease. That's the way it is in nature I believe. When the hive (home) is no longer viable, the bees leave and start over. It would be interesting to know the hive loss rate of feral colonies. I would imagine that it's pretty high. That's the reason bees propagate the way they do I suppose.
To perform OA sublimation, you could insert a vaporizer through the entrance or drill a 1/4" hole in the side. ApiVar is a thymol treatment and there are a few more alternatives that are "natural".
Bob Binnie and Kamon Reynolds (YouTube) have great information about IPM. 
You should perform mite checks to determine if and when treatments are necessary. If you treat and don't follow up with a mite count/check.....you won't know how effective the treatment was or if more is necessary. 
There will be a happy medium in there somewhere between intervention and natural. Technically beekeeping in and of itself is not natural to the bees.
Sorry about your losses.


----------



## GregB

BeeRussell said:


> The possibilities are seemingly endless.


What matters is really

what is it you want? - just enjoy handling and watching the bees? produce a ton of honey? make $500 selling bees? try to breed your own queens? really like the woodwork part, but not the bees as much?
what is it you can do? - can you safely and repeatedly lift 50 pounds? do you have an injured limb or the back?
how much time and resources you can put into it? - what is your budget? can you build things OR you must buy anything? can you keep bees in your backyard legally?

Based on these and other considerations - do that is the best fit .


----------



## BEE J

I guess that's why I just read a book and built a hive out of it. If it doesn't work I'll have to try something else, but it will be a good learning experience. Just find something that looks good and go for it! We will always be in the learning/adapting/modifying phase.


----------



## BeeRussell

crofter said:


> I am a bit further along with my Layens and deep Lang hive. It can use my custom 13" deep Langstroth frames in two rows of 9 which can be supered with 10 frame boxes as the pictures show, or the 13" Lang frames can be stood on their end If the hive is used Layens style. Connected pairs of medium dept frames can stand on end. Notice frame rests on both ends and sides.
> 
> The removable center divider provides frame rests when the Lang frames are used lengthwise or when two Layens colonies are housed. Actually you could have a Layens vertical colony in one end and a conventional Langstroth colony at the same time. I think it has endless possibilities for someone who wants to play around and compare Langstroth and Layens equipment. Regular available depth frames of either one or custom depth up to19". I have cut the depth to 20"


The tinkerer in me loves this design. It is semi standard in dimension. Crazy flexible. 
One long horizontal hive
divisible into two colonies of varying styles
able to stack supers
This flexibility would lend itself to using and making standard "Lang" nucs should you choose.
I love this design.

Good job! Thanks for sharing!


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> I guess that's why I just read a book and built a hive out of it. *If it doesn't work I'll have to try something else,* but it will be a good learning experience. Just find something that looks good and go for it! We will always be in the learning/adapting/modifying phase.


It will work - no doubt.
Meaning, you can keep the bees in it - no doubt.
Some years back I kept bees in computer boxes.


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> It will work - no doubt.
> Meaning, you can keep the bees in it - no doubt.
> Some years back I kept bees in computer boxes.


I was reffering to my hive. The Lazutin one. I haven't put any bees in it, but if you came to see I bet you would notice my bad errors. 😄


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> Some years back I kept bees in computer boxes.


No kidding?


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> No kidding?


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> I was reffering to my hive. The Lazutin one. I haven't put any bees in it, but if you came to see I bet you would notice my *bad errors*. 😄


Bees don't care.
But again, the bees must be healthy.
Sick bees will die in the most expensive and advanced hive just the same.


----------



## BeeRussell

GregB said:


> What matters is really
> 
> what is it you want? - just enjoy handling and watching the bees? produce a ton of honey? make $500 selling bees? try to breed your own queens? really like the woodwork part, but not the bees as much?
> what is it you can do? - can you safely and repeatedly lift 50 pounds? do you have an injured limb or the back?
> how much time and resources you can put into it? - what is your budget? can you build things OR you must buy anything? can you keep bees in your backyard legally?
> 
> Based on these and other considerations - do that is the best fit .


Exactly! I don't know exactly the end configuration. I do intend to keep bees the way I want to...as long as the bees allow.

I enjoy all the aspects of beekeeping, some more than others. I don't enjoy lifting heavy boxes or the hectic schedule caused by running too many out-yards.
I like honey. Would like to produce enough for my family and possibly give some away.
I do like wood working when I have the time. Right now I am researching before I start building again. I have enough equipment to do the things I have done before. But I plan on transitioning to a more laid back style focusing on enjoying the process.
My long term plan is to simplify while expanding to the point I can manage easily. If my kids want to grow it larger still, they can. 
The kids are fascinated by Top Bar hives, so we will probably incorporate a couple of those into the mix first.

Tending bees in the Mississippi summers is not enjoyable at all. So I will try and manage around summer hive work if I can.


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> View attachment 68907


Wow! Imagine how much money you could save doing things like that! It's probably pretty warm too. Is there a place we could talk about this or an old thread somewhere?


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> Bees don't care.
> But again, the bees must be healthy.
> Sick bees will die in the most expensive and advanced hive just the same.


That's so true.


----------



## GregB

BEE J said:


> Wow! Imagine *how much money you could save *doing things like that! It's probably pretty warm too. *Is there a place we could talk about this or an old thread somewhere?*


Dirt cheap beekeeping?








Dirt Cheap Bee Keeping!


Thinking about a book that could be co produced by Greg V and Little_john; something like "Dirt Cheap Subsistence Beekeeping"!. Seriously there have been a wealth of ideas about how to have your own honey with an absolute minimum of purchased equipment. Forget about the virtue signalling 500 or...




www.beesource.com


----------



## BEE J

GregB said:


> Dirt cheap beekeeping?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dirt Cheap Bee Keeping!
> 
> 
> Thinking about a book that could be co produced by Greg V and Little_john; something like "Dirt Cheap Subsistence Beekeeping"!. Seriously there have been a wealth of ideas about how to have your own honey with an absolute minimum of purchased equipment. Forget about the virtue signalling 500 or...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.beesource.com


Cool! I've actually looked at that thread there before. It was fantastic, I need to check it out again!

Thanks Greg, BEEJ


----------



## bjorn

First finished frame... way faster that making my own side bars, narrowing and dado-ing ears on top bars and narrowing bottom bars. 
I will say plastic foundation is "exciting" to cut on a miter saw... watch out!!


----------



## Tigger19687

What about even easier with out having to hang them. Just let the ears be the feet?
I saw that some where but I think it was for smaller frames


----------



## jtgoral

Tigger19687 said:


> What about even easier with out having to hang them. Just let the ears be the feet?
> I saw that some where but I think it was for smaller frames


The ears help to maintain the bee space.


----------



## Tigger19687

jtgoral said:


> The ears help to maintain the bee space.


Yes there would not be a need for an extra piece of wood on top or bottom for hanging... From the 2 mediums connected. The bottom has the ears that are now used as feet with the space open between them. Leave the top ears on if you like.


----------



## GregB

Tigger19687 said:


> What about even easier with out having to hang them. Just let the ears be the feet?
> I saw that some where but I think it was for smaller frames


Free standing frames work fine.
Here is my version used for mating nucs.
Joined together Lang frames will work exactly the same way without any ears - free standing (for example, in any box or a any container unrelated to beekeeping - a computer box comes to mind).

Frames need not be hanging - that is just a common mental hang up (because we are taught that way).


----------



## GregB

jtgoral said:


> The ears help to maintain the bee space.


Ears are only needed to hang the frames - which is not necessary (a hanging frame).
Here are standing frames in action:


----------



## jtgoral

GregB said:


> Ears are only needed to hang the frames - which is not necessary (a hanging frame).
> Here are standing frames in action:
> 
> View attachment 68932


In my case they ensure the beespace


----------



## GregB

jtgoral said:


> In my case they ensure the beespace
> 
> View attachment 68933


The ears alone don't ensure the bee space. 
We had discussion of the "bee space" not long ago.
I personally don't give the bee space much consideration in the horizontal hives (as an insignificant feature).

Bee space becomes more significant in small/tight/high tech hives - where the bees tend to be compacted. In spacious volumes, this space is just not a pressing concern.


----------



## jtgoral

GregB said:


> The ears alone don't ensure the bee space.
> ...


I was trying to move my frame to get rid of the beespace and the ears were always preventing to do so..... This is one of reasons I only use standard frames.
I do not understand your logic.


----------



## GregB

jtgoral said:


> I was trying to move my frame to get rid of the beespace and *the ears were always preventing to do so*..... This is one of reasons I only use standard frames.
> I do not understand your logic.


OK. Here is your bee space that is defined by 1) protruding ear and 2)frame side bar.
#1 and #2 define the bee space in this instance.










My logic is that I don't really care of that prescribed bee space too much.
As pictured, I have ~2-3" - does not matter that much (yes, it is volume waste, but I can afford it). In this case, #1 and #2 (as defined above) create totally different "bee space".


----------



## jtgoral

GregB said:


> OK. Here is your bee space that is defined by 1) protruding ear and 2)frame side bar.
> #1 and #2 define the bee space in this instance.
> 
> View attachment 68935
> 
> 
> My logic is that I don't really care of that prescribed bee space too much.
> As pictured, I have ~2-3" - does not matter that much (yes, it is volume waste, but I can afford it). In this case, #1 and #2 (as defined above) create totally different "bee space".
> 
> View attachment 68936


Bee Space describes what the beespace is. Your definition does not fall in.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Dzierzon


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## GregB

Again, we get too attached to the mental models forced upon us by the manufactured equipment.
As if this is some sort a given (which is total BS IMO).

The free standing frames don't fit that conventional model (including the bee space concerns).
The free standing frames actually fit the model of book-hive invented by Huber (if I recall correctly).


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## GregB

jtgoral said:


> Bee Space describes what the beespace is. Your definition does not fall in.
> 
> 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Dzierzon


What I am saying is that "bee space" is not always relevant.
Just not relevant.

Simply, if I keep bees in a skep, I don't care.

Again - "Bee space becomes more significant in small/tight/high tech hives". 
This is in the context of the framed hives.

And so - in the context of lower-tech horizontal hive, this is less of an issue. Not a concern.
Talk to the African top bar keepers.
Tell them how important the "bee space" is to them. 
They don't even know what that is.


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## jtgoral

GregB said:


> OK. Here is your bee space that is defined by 1) protruding ear and 2)frame side bar.
> #1 and #2 define the bee space in this instance.
> 
> View attachment 68935
> 
> 
> My logic is that I don't really care of that prescribed bee space too much.
> As pictured, I have ~2-3" - does not matter that much (yes, it is volume waste, but I can afford it). In this case, #1 and #2 (as defined above) create totally different "bee space".
> 
> View attachment 68936


My beespace was defined 170 years ago. I had yet to be born at that time. My picture shows beespace implementation.


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## Tigger19687

jtgoral said:


> My beespace was defined 170 years ago. I had yet to be born at that time. My picture shows beespace implementation.


What he's saying is the Bees don't care. You could have the frames 1/16" from the sides and they don't care. They will make hole were they need to.
Look at foundation less frames, bees leave space at the bottom sometimes even though there is "bee space" below the frame.
As stated, skeps are another example... No frame at all... Bees make their own space.

Today's frames are made mainly for commercial ease....


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## jtgoral

Tigger19687 said:


> What he's saying is the Bees don't care. You could have the frames 1/16" from the sides and they don't care. They will make hole were they need to.
> Look at foundation less frames, bees leave space at the bottom sometimes even though there is "bee space" below the frame.
> As stated, skeps are another example... No frame at all... Bees make their own space.
> 
> Today's frames are made mainly for commercial ease....


*Have you read the second line in red from the top* in Bee Space
The bees do not care, they just use it for millions of years and in skeps, too. 

1/16" gap they will glue with propolis, bigger then 3/8 will fill with the comb. Today's frames are made to prevent any of those cases.


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## Gray Goose

jtgoral said:


> *Have you read the second line in red from the top* in Bee Space
> The bees do not care, they just use it for millions of years and in skeps, too.
> 
> 1/16" gap they will glue with propolis, bigger then 3/8 will fill with the comb. Today's frames are made to prevent any of those cases.


last sentence of your definition.

the pertinent part is in bold.

"*In all things there are exceptions*... when it comes to the gap between the frame bottom bars in the bottom box and the floor surface underneath it, this is usually 28 mm or 31 mm in UK hives, but it does not suffer brace or burr comb unduly, as the bees consider it a similar situation to a wild nest in a cave. "

the 9 examples given for gap is not an exclusive list , it contains some of the "Known" "Gaps"

BTW IMO Always and Never are not normal terms in bee keeping, for every rule their is an exemption or 2.

I do totally agree jg there are some min gaps that "almost" always get pasted shut, but in the larger hives, the attention to this "preference" is, toward the large gap size is diminished, they still have the "bee space" just less enforced.
so a Non linear ritual trait, based on cavity size.. the cracks still get the goo but the halls are allowed larger.

bur comb is an expression of need for more space/bigger cavity, for that Queen+ workers, in that environment think they want. Or used to slow air flow. IMO optimize air flow and Space size and bur comb would diminish to a minimum.
holding the bee race a constant 


GG


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## GregB

jtgoral said:


> My beespace was defined 170 years ago. I had yet to be born at that time. My picture shows beespace implementation.


As well my pictures show the "bee-implemented" bees spaces.

This bees space phenomenon is a *variable*, NOT a constant as posited the "Langstroth-based" hive dimension.
The variable is dependent of the 1)cavity space available and 2)strength of the bee colony relative to that cavity and 3)the bee body ergonomics and 4)particular cavity configuration (ventilation, etc) and 5)who-knows-what......

As soon as you step away from the convention (try foundation-less in a large cavity) - you start seeing patterns that make no sense when looking at them from the conventional Lang-world.

I suggest people step away from the so-called Langstroth-based conventions (cultivated by the beekeeping equipment manufacturers for their own standardization convenience, btw) and try for themselves.

The frames below demonstrate all kinds of spaces implemented by the bees - these are ALL *natural *bee-space created by the bees as they see fit them the best.


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## GregB




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## GregB

So basically, I propose by this drawing that when the living cluster of the bees is squeezed by the volume as in #3 (smallest box), then indeed the Langstroth "discovered" bee tolerances more likely to be in the play.

However, when the situation is closer to the #1 - not so much - as the bees are just not "squeezed" enough to really be trying to optimize their living space.
The ultimate case of #1 is when the bees are living in open air where the "bee space" is approaching infinity.

Yes it is understood that there are two types of space optimization that bees need to do - a)between the combs and b)between the comb edges and the cavity confines.
It is the (b) we are talking about.










So, when the technological issues are not a concern (e.g. high-tech hives where typical, multi-box Lang hive is an example) - the tolerances are not a big deal and often totally irrelevant.

While the bees in a small skep most likely are trying to optimize the minimal space they have at their disposal - beekeeper is not concerned of that due to the management approaches used.

Likewise, when the bees are kept in an oversized, low-tech hive, the space confines are just not there - my foundation-less frames and bars often times are "wasted" where they are not fully built-in so to full-fill the theoretical "bee space requirement". As long as overall space is ample, I can afford to be relaxed and not worry of the millimeters.


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## jtgoral

GregB said:


> As well my pictures show the "bee-implemented" bees spaces.
> 
> This bees space phenomenon is a *variable*, NOT a constant as posited the "Langstroth-based" hive dimension.
> The variable is dependent of the 1)cavity space available and 2)strength of the bee colony relative to that cavity and 3)the bee body ergonomics and 4)particular cavity configuration (ventilation, etc) and 5)who-knows-what......
> 
> As soon as you step away from the convention (try foundation-less in a large cavity) - you start seeing patterns that make no sense when looking at them from the conventional Lang-world.
> 
> I suggest people step away from the so-called Langstroth-based conventions (cultivated by the beekeeping equipment manufacturers for their own standardization convenience, btw) and try for themselves.
> 
> The frames below demonstrate all kinds of spaces implemented by the bees - these are ALL *natural *bee-space created by the bees as they see fit them the best.
> 
> View attachment 68954
> 
> 
> View attachment 68955
> 
> 
> View attachment 68956
> 
> 
> View attachment 68957


So what is the beespace in your beloved Ukrainian hive? This is over 100 years old drawing:










When I do the math 0.25 in < 7.5 mm < .375 in. The beespace is defined everywhere as a distance in the range between 1/4 in and 3/8 in.

I cannot wait for your book contradicting the above definition. I will buy it hopefully soon on Amazon....

This is the link to above drawing: Universal hive. Ukrainian hive with their own hands on a high frame


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## Tigger19687

jtgoral said:


> So what is the beespace in your beloved Ukrainian hive? This is over 100 years old drawing:
> 
> View attachment 68962
> 
> 
> When I do the math 0.25 in < 7.5 mm < .375 in. The beespace is defined everywhere as a distance in the range between 1/4 in and 3/8 in.
> 
> I cannot wait for your book contradicting the above definition. I will buy it hopefully soon on Amazon....
> 
> This is the link to above drawing: Universal hive. Ukrainian hive with their own hands on a high frame


Why are you so harsh. No one is wrong here. Bees do what they want.
If you like Lang's hive then great. But if this other kind of hive us not your thing then move along to another section of the forum.
No one wants to argue here


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## jtgoral

Tigger19687 said:


> Why are you so harsh. No one is wrong here. Bees do what they want.
> If you like Lang's hive then great. But if this other kind of hive us not your thing then move along to another section of the forum.
> No one wants to argue here


I am talking only about the definition of the 'beespace' which is accepted in the beekeeping science for over 100 years. I said nothing about long, Lang, Lazutin or Layens hives, just about mishandling the term of the 'beespace' which is a part of beekeeping vocabulary.

This is a discussion forum. What is discussion without arguing?

Reference:








What Is The Bee Space? It is more important than you might think. | Welcome


In the world of beekeeping, bee space refers to the space found inside a beehive, which plays a vital part in modern beekeeping as we…




whatbugisthat.com


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## ursa_minor

jtgoral said:


> I am talking only about the definition of the 'beespace' which is accepted in the beekeeping science for over 100 years.


Sure there is a definition of 'beespace' that is accepted but IMO what is in dispute, for some of us, is if it is relevant to beekeeping. IMO it is not always especially if you are running anything but conventional Langs. 

Plans from way back for sure include this accepted 'beespace' for many hive types but it does not follow that in all cases the bees will care enough to automatically propolise those spaces smaller or build comb in the larger spaces. In my deep hives sometimes they build bottom comb in the 3 inches I leave there, sometimes not, sometimes they propolis a frame too close to the side, most times not. 

The term and definition of 'beespace' refers to the optimal space for bees, but that is a human definition, the bees will put space or not where they choose at the depth they choose.


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## little_john

jtgoral said:


> The beespace is defined everywhere as a distance in the range between 1/4 in and 3/8 in.


You guys are talking past each other regarding different issues. This problem has been caused by the coining of the term "Bee-Space", which of course is *NOT* Langstroth's phrase, but was invented by someone else at a later date.

In his second Patent, Langstroth describes the need for a *clearance *between the woodwork of his frame and that of any other hive component, such as frame, cover, box wall etc. He was quite specific that this clearance did *NOT* apply to the combs themselves - but only applied to the woodwork-to-woodwork interface (my words). Indeed, he specified that the comb-to-comb gap ought to be variable - i.e. adjustable by the beekeeper.

The act of assigning to this woodwork-to-woodwork clearance the name "Bee-Space" has created a misleading concept of 'universality', such that any gaps seen within combs which have been created by the bees are thus incorrectly perceived in the same light - but although superficially similar they ain't actually the clearances Langstoth was referring to.

In short - Langstroth's "clearance" is a man-made clearance intended to thwart attempts by the bees to join two pieces of woodwork together. The gaps which bees create within and surrounding their combs are something quite different. The 'Bee-Space' has become a popular abstract concept which has served to confuse beekeepers regarding two very different purposes for spaces which can be observed within a beehive.
LJ


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## GregB

little_john said:


> but only applied to the *woodwork-to-woodwork* interface (my words).


Well put.

And hence I offered my picture to demonstrate where the woodwork-to-woodwork spacing* is or is not relevant. 








*

In smaller "space to bees" situation (#3) they very well behave closer to what is prescribed

In certain situation wood-to-wood clearances are irrelevant as the bees will ignore them as unimportant to them (this situations are more likely to occur in large and deep volumes).

As demonstrated in this picture - 2" gap woodwork-to-woodwork is NOT filled by any combs (against the prescription). Because the bees are not hurting for space so to fill every little space available by a comb (but *theoretically* they should if to behave by the book).










More over, I discussed this idea earlier where what really matters is - where the bees are demarking the outer borders of their "nest". In smaller/tighter situations the entire interior of the box will be considered a nest - thus it will be propolised/filled with the combs to the very remote corner. In large/loose situations, remote corners of the box will be ignored as unimportant (being *outside *of the nest).

And so - bee maintenance in large, low-tech hives is not very sensitive to maintaining the wood-to-wood clearances (obviously, *too tight is not good for a number of reasons (including the bees)*; but too big clearances don't matter a whole lot).


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## GregB

jtgoral said:


> So what is the beespace in your beloved Ukrainian hive?


In industrially produced Ukrainian hives the spaces very well maybe compliant to the same of this Langstroth hive (picture f rom page 77 of T. Seeley, The Lives of Bees).
Why?
Because in the industrial setting the manufacturers MUST adhere to some standard clearances so that they can produce a volume hives efficiently in a factory setting.

Might as well use the conventional, well-known settings as they have to use something.










On this Lang hive picture, especially funny to me the "bs" indication for the under-frame space - basically telling how uncomfortable this box is to the bees as they would *really *love to keep building down.
That lowest "bs" is totally unnecessary in the deep hives (whereas the side "bs" requirements are more variable).

I really don't care of such "bs" tolerances for myself and can afford to be sloppy as hell - and yet the wood-to-wood problem is not rally problem for me. Lucky for me I don't sell my equipment and don't need to demonstrate some sort of standardization.










In many of my hives support for the frame is just screwed in piece of scrap wood pulled from a pile - thus making the wood-to-wood clearance anywhere from 1" to 2" (and even wider at times).
Not a deal breaker.










And thus I propose that once you offer to the bees desirable ergonomics of the space (Ukrainian frame does that well) - that requirement of the technological clearances becomes non-essential (especially IF the plastic frames/foundations are taken out of the picture).

That original idea of Langstroth is nothing other that technological clearance requirement caused by certain conditions - e.g. Langstroth hive dimensions.

Had he been familiar with the Ukrainian/Polish heritage hives, he'd very well change his tune.


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## GregB

jtgoral said:


> So what is the beespace in your beloved Ukrainian hive?





jtgoral said:


> The beespace is defined everywhere as a distance in the range between 1/4 in and 3/8 in.


In my heavier hives, I try to be as efficient as possible because every inch of wood means weight. Thus the side "bs" wood-to-wood clearance is targeted to *1/2"* (more is fine too).

The under-frame "wood-to-wood" is about *2"* (more is fine too).

So if to go by the book, I am in violation of the rules just about anywhere. 
And that is just fine.


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## GregB

Sloppy beekeeping. Anything goes.
Out of the frames?
Just stick in some Lang frames and forget it.
What bee space?


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## GregB

Back to:

Is the Bee-Space necessary ? | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


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## jtgoral

GregB said:


> Back to:
> 
> Is the Bee-Space necessary ? | Beesource Beekeeping Forums


This is a link to a different and very interesting subject.

I am talking about a beespace as something what existed before it was described, measured and named like for example gravitation, electron, positron, Dew Point, flu...


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## Tigger19687

jtgoral said:


> This is a link to a different and very interesting subject.
> 
> I am talking about a beespace as something what existed before it was described, measured and named like for example gravitation, electron, positron, Dew Point, flu...











My 2022 Swarm Adventures


However, I think Greg is also right. @ncbeez got this before me. I just did not think of making the picture larger. Once you blow the picture up a little - that queen stands out.




www.beesource.com




This post as a pic of bees in an open bay.
Hmmm seems they didn't get the memo about proper bee space 
😆


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## GregB

jtgoral said:


> This is a link to a different and very interesting subject.
> 
> I am talking about a beespace as something what existed before it was described, measured and named like for example gravitation, electron, positron, Dew Point, flu...


You are talking about the one and only natural bee space - the "comb-to-base" type (what was defined by @little_john as "comb-to-wood", but it must be defined wider).
The natural "comb-to-base" spacing is a *variable thing* where the minimum value is the bee size and the maximum value is infinity.

I can produce tons of pictures that demonstrate this (so just re-posting one from the above for my own convenience).
This picture alone demonstrates the *variability *of the natural "comb-to-base" spacing.












The "base-to-base" (more general definition since wood is not the only option) - is a technological parameter required for the mass production of the beekeeping equipment.
So whatever is the generally working value for the standard equipment (that being the notorious Lang box/frame set) - they will use since they must use something (1/4" - 3/8")

Once you are free from the mass produced equipment constraints, you are free to experiment and find what are the technological clearances needed for your particular equipment. 
As I demonstrated enough my now, my own technological clearances do not match of those of the conventional Lang equipment - I freely use 1/2" to 2".
Thus the *universal *"base-to-base" technological bee space is nothing but another myth (in that it is NOT universal).
Of course, for as long as one is locked into the Lang world, they are not aware of the alternatives (or choose to avoid those).

To be fair, for my own high-tech vertical hives I need to be more careful with conforming to some technical clearances - I am trying to target 1/2"(+/-) as it is good enough and easier to work with.
That is a negative thing in my view (being more careful), but a fair price to pay for the sake of other beneficial features.


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## little_john

jtgoral said:


> I am talking about a beespace as something what existed before it was described, measured and named like for example gravitation, electron, positron, Dew Point, flu...


Yes, I can see the relevance of that. 
Question. Do such things as witches, ghosts, unicorns exist ? Yes, of course they do - they exist in the minds of those who believe in them. Most people I would bet would have no difficulty in either drawing any of the above or at least describing them. So I'd say that was an 'existence' of sorts ...
There are other abstract ideas which many people have no difficulty believing in, such as fairness, freedom, liberty, money (as distinct from currency) etc - that is, as long as you don't ask them to explain in detail their understanding of such ideas.
It seems to me that the 'Bee-Space' is a bit like that - with most people having an idea of the measurement involved, and the history behind it - but where exactly does it apply, and - more importantly - where does it *not *apply ? 

One problem I can see lies in the choice of terminology: why, for example is it called the *Bee*-Space, which implies that Bees are the original 'authors' of such spaces ? It was of course a spacing which Langstroth (and one or two European beekeepers) had homed-in on with regard to removable combs - so why on earth was it not called the 'Beekeeper-Space' ?

Once it's been suggested that Bees are the 'authors' of such spaces we tend to see what has been suggested that we ought to see by the use of such a term - such as the space bees often leave between their combs and the frame side-bars for example. 
But there's a difference ... The clearance which Langstroth specified is intended to provide a space within which the bees are *incapable of drawing comb. *But look at these examples of foundationless comb:



















Do they suggest the bees were *incapable of drawing comb* within the potential space between comb and side-bar ? Sometimes - as above - they choose to eliminate such a space entirely; sometimes they draw an inch or so to secure the comb - but - if they were able to draw one inch that suggests they could have easily drawn the remainder, but didn't. Why ? - well, only they know that for sure, but I'd suggest it's to maintain ease of access - or maybe they just didn't see any need to do that, but could have, had they really wanted to.

I think one of the main problems we humans face, is that we've been keeping bees for so long upon straight combs, hanging for all the world like so many straight and parallel curtains, that we've completely lost sight of what the interior of a truly natural hive environment looks like. Here are a couple of examples of the 'next best thing'.



















I think you'd be pretty pushed to identify a convincing 'Bee-Space' anywhere within the above. 

Like most beekeepers, I want straight combs from side-bar to side-bar and from top to bottom (if at all possible) - but I'm fast developing a tolerance for when bees will not comply with what my human obsessions demand. 
LJ


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## jtgoral

little_john said:


> Yes, I can see the relevance of that.
> Question. Do such things as witches, ghosts, unicorns exist ? Yes, of course they do - they exist in the minds of those who believe in them. Most people I would bet would have no difficulty in either drawing any of the above or at least describing them. So I'd say that was an 'existence' of sorts ...
> There are other abstract ideas which many people have no difficulty believing in, such as fairness, freedom, liberty, money (as distinct from currency) etc - that is, as long as you don't ask them to explain in detail their understanding of such ideas.
> It seems to me that the 'Bee-Space' is a bit like that - with most people having an idea of the measurement involved, and the history behind it - but where exactly does it apply, and - more importantly - where does it *not *apply ?
> 
> One problem I can see lies in the choice of terminology: why, for example is it called the *Bee*-Space, which implies that Bees are the original 'authors' of such spaces ? It was of course a spacing which Langstroth (and one or two European beekeepers) had homed-in on with regard to removable combs - so why on earth was it not called the 'Beekeeper-Space' ?
> 
> Once it's been suggested that Bees are the 'authors' of such spaces we tend to see what has been suggested that we ought to see by the use of such a term - such as the space bees often leave between their combs and the frame side-bars for example.
> But there's a difference ... The clearance which Langstroth specified is intended to provide a space within which the bees are *incapable of drawing comb. *But look at these examples of foundationless comb:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Do they suggest the bees were *incapable of drawing comb* within the potential space between comb and side-bar ? Sometimes - as above - they choose to eliminate such a space entirely; sometimes they draw an inch or so to secure the comb - but - if they were able to draw one inch that suggests they could have easily drawn the remainder, but didn't. Why ? - well, only they know that for sure, but I'd suggest it's to maintain ease of access - or maybe they just didn't see any need to do that, but could have, had they really wanted to.
> 
> I think one of the main problems we humans face, is that we've been keeping bees for so long upon straight combs, hanging for all the world like so many straight and parallel curtains, that we've completely lost sight of what the interior of a truly natural hive environment looks like. Here are a couple of examples of the 'next best thing'.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you'd be pretty pushed to identify a convincing 'Bee-Space' anywhere within the above.
> 
> Like most beekeepers, I want straight combs from side-bar to side-bar and from top to bottom (if at all possible) - but I'm fast developing a tolerance for when bees will not comply with what my human obsessions demand.
> LJ


I see "Bee-Space" all over around on those two pictures, you do not? How far apart are comb wall surfaces here?


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## ursa_minor

jtgoral said:


> I see "Bee-Space" all over around on those two pictures, you do not? How far apart are comb wall surfaces here?


Yes, but there are just as many comb walls that do not have the "required" beespace. For example, in the top picture the middle is wacky according to the beespace parameters, huge gaps. In the bottom picture where the comb bends to form the heart shaped top, all along the bottom where the space is triangular, third comb up from the left where it goes slightly bowed. So these picture are a perfect example where our idea of beespace parts company with the bees.


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## jtgoral

ursa_minor said:


> Yes, but there are just as many comb walls that do not have the "required" beespace. For example, in the top picture the middle is wacky according to the beespace parameters, huge gaps. In the bottom picture where the comb bends to form the heart shaped top, all along the bottom where the space is triangular, third comb up from the left where it goes slightly bowed. So these picture are a perfect example where our idea of beespace parts company with the bees.


I think those places you mentioned have no space for new comb, only for deeper comb. I think there is a limit how deep cells the bees want to build.


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## jtgoral

little_john said:


> Yes, I can see the relevance of that.
> Question. Do such things as witches, ghosts, unicorns exist ? Yes, of course they do - they exist in the minds of those who believe in them. Most people I would bet would have no difficulty in either drawing any of the above or at least describing them. So I'd say that was an 'existence' of sorts ...
> There are other abstract ideas which many people have no difficulty believing in, such as fairness, freedom, liberty, money (as distinct from currency) etc - that is, as long as you don't ask them to explain in detail their understanding of such ideas.
> It seems to me that the 'Bee-Space' is a bit like that - with most people having an idea of the measurement involved, and the history behind it - but where exactly does it apply, and - more importantly - where does it *not *apply ?
> 
> ....
> 
> Like most beekeepers, I want straight combs from side-bar to side-bar and from top to bottom (if at all possible) - but I'm fast developing a tolerance for when bees will not comply with what my human obsessions demand.
> LJ


I think I was talking about experimental science not about believes  .

I like straight combs, too. I was inspecting my hives two days ago and I found comb similar to the one in your both bottom pictures. This was in the 2.5in high feeding box where I had sugar blocks on the top of upper box frames. The bottom brood box had drawn empty frames. So I guess I did have more than Bee-Space in those 2.5in, don't you think?


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## jtgoral

little_john said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you'd be pretty pushed to identify a convincing 'Bee-Space' anywhere within the above.
> 
> 
> LJ


Can you draw half of the box wall thickness across the space between comb surfaces? I assume the box is made of something like 3/4in or 20 mm boards, is it?. Some places are as wide as the wall thickness.


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## little_john

jtgoral said:


> I think I was talking about experimental science not about believes  .


Well, I was really referring to how we humans see (or believe) what we have been become used to seeing (or believing). Perhaps the best example of this that I know of is the Necker Cube - worth reading up on, if you haven't already. 
LJ


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## little_john

jtgoral said:


> Can you draw half of the box wall thickness across the space between comb surfaces? I assume the box is made of something like 3/4in or 20 mm boards, is it?.


No idea - it wasn't my box - those are only pictures I pulled off the Internet as being rather interesting.

The second picture (which I find quite beautiful) has many examples of parallel combs (and of course, just as many non-parallel). But with regard to those parallel combs the consensus view is that their spacing would be around 3/4". 
In contrast, Langstroth's clearance between a frame top-bar and the bottom-bar of the frame above it, for example, which has become known as 'The Bee-Space' is 3/8".

So - a natural comb-spacing of 3/4" contrasted with a man-made 'woodwork' spacing of 3/8". Of course, the usual workaround to reconcile these two different measurements is to consider the natural spacing as being comprised of *two* bee-spaces. But that is 'adjusting' an observation to fit an existing proposition. When claiming the existence of a novel entity, it is usual to define it in the singular, rather than being comprised of multiple units - which is why I feel happier distancing this concept of 'The Bee-Space' from those honey-bee constructions which preceded the invention of Langstroth's hanging frame.
'best,
LJ


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## bjorn

Here's my favorite example of the bees are gonna do whatever the hell they want to...


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## bjorn




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## jtgoral

bjorn said:


> Here's my favorite example of the bees are gonna do whatever the hell they want to...


If you let them do whatever they want to do. How come that the comb in the middle did not touch the body of the hive or the divider/follower board or other comb?


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## bjorn

Good question, that frame was in the middle of the brood nest. It was between 2 "conversion" frames... aka 2 med lang frames zip tied together. Were they more inclined to drawn the center comb 90 degrees off because there was wood in the center of the conversion frame? Who knows... only they know the rationale.


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## jtgoral

bjorn said:


> Good question, that frame was in the middle of the brood nest. It was between 2 "conversion" frames... aka 2 med lang frames zip tied together. Were they more inclined to drawn the center comb 90 degrees off because there was wood in the center of the conversion frame? Who knows... only they know the rationale.


How do you extract honey from those frames in your pictures?


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## bjorn

I don't. Like I said, they are in the middle of the brood nest. I keep zip tied frames closer to the outside... against the follower boards. I can harvest them if I want. But my observation last year, first with these deep hives, was these are great for making lots of bees, not so much surplus honey. They will pack honey in, but you don't see surplus like in a verticle lang setup. I run both... so I harvest off the langs. I plan to use these layens/Ukrainian hives for making nucs, splits, etc.


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## GregB

jtgoral said:


> How do you extract honey from those frames in your pictures?


Eventually the brood frames need to be recycled anyway - C&S - back in for the rebuild.


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> but you don't see surplus like in a verticle lang setup.


bjorn, this season try run those hybrids at 10 frames only and see if they go up.
I mean to do it with my 12-frame hybrids and see if honey crop works out.

The long hives will be busy in the bee business - I promised some bees already.


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## bjorn

GregB said:


> bjorn, this season try run those hybrids at 10 frames only and see if they go up.
> I mean to do it with my 12-frame hybrids and see if honey crop works out.


Greg, you are spot on with this suggestion. I left the front entrance follower board in place and removed the rear follower board which left room for about 10 frames (I honestly did not count). I then placed a QE on top and a super. This was on two of your style hybrids. At first, they seemed reluctant to cross the QE. But, about mid/late June they started filling supers. I ended up harvesting 4 1/2 supers between 2 hives. I had them at 9 frames each, which seemed to yield more honey than 10 frames due to thicker buildout. 

I left 1 super on each for space to store during our late summer/fall flow. I will probably scrape the wax cappings, place an empty box above the hybrid hive and see if they take that super as "feed" in early fall to really pack the hybrid box. I don't "need" more honey. But, I do want to be able to put the rear follower board and a soft roof over the brood chamber. I suppose I could do that, then place the super above the soft roof. In warmer weather they could feed off of the super. My fear is they would not make it back to the cluster if the temps dropped.


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## bjorn

Another quick update:

The 6 frame bait hives attracted 2 nice swarms this summer. 

The first was late May. I had literally hung the hive the day before in a new location. In the past, I have relocated swarms to my apiary closer to my house. This year I decided not to fight them, and simply set the bait hive on a stand below the trap tree location. They moved in without issue. No straggling bees, no transporting bees 5 miles away and back. Easy peasy. This time, rather than moving them into the 3 med stack hybrid, I left them in the insulated bait hive and added a 6 frame lang deep on top. This will serve as the brood chamber. Tall and narrow. I've had many lang hives that never touched the outside honey frames... just moved up. So this will be interesting. I later placed a small split in another of the bait hive boxes back to back with the first one on the stand. I put a QE on top of them and they are sharing 2 honey supers. Again, an interesting experiment. Before fall, I will split the honey and probably just place half of it over each hive. I realize this is alot of custom box and adapter fabrication and not for everyone. I will update as I can.

The second swarm was late June. I transferred it into a 3 med stack hybrid and will leave them in that. I added 4/5 frames when I transferred them. They will get a rear follower board and soft "brood section" cover in the next month or so in preparation for winter.


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> But, I do want to be able to put the rear follower board and a soft roof over the brood chamber. *I suppose I could do that, then place the super above the soft roof. In warmer weather they could feed off of the super.* My fear is they would not make it back to the cluster if the temps dropped.


For you and I the warm weather should continue into October (not to mention the space above the nest is always relatively warm).
This is the exact way how I utilize any honey scraps and half-full frames - just put them above the soft cover with a small passage made.
They will dry up everything above the "soft roof".
Works well.

But once everything is dry - remove the frame/scraps from the above to NOT attract the bees there.


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> Greg, you are spot on with this suggestion. ......


I got so busy playing with my mini-nucs this season, everything else got put off.


Pretty much most all large hives are just left to fend for themselves - they are OK and loaded.
I have no time to harvest - too busy with other life - honey is not going anywhere though; it will be right where it is.

Maybe later in the season I will review how my hybrids did.
But for now:

two hybrids have no supers - because one of them has a new 2022 split and another lost a swarm due to poor beekeeping (sniff - forget honey)
two hybrids have a single super - a newly caught swarm and a clean restart
one hybrid has two supers - a newly caught swarm
Pretty much all of the hybrids run full 12 frame brood nests for me - just because I decided to spend as little time with them as possible.
Full nest means I need not be checking on them often - which is once a month if that.
Just plopped the supers where they needed more space and went away for the rest of the summer.


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## bjorn

GregB said:


> Pretty much all of the hybrids run full 12 frame brood nests for me


Do you plan to put the follower boards back in or just leave them with 12 frames all winter?


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> Do you plan to put the follower boards back in or just leave them with 12 frames all winter?


Will reduce most likely.

Looked at one a couple days ago (after a month break).
A queen-less swarm combined with a small nuc.
The super is full - better than expected - to be taken away.
The nest will be reduced to 7-8 frames + board.

Another hybrid - a mid split - will winter on 6-7 frames.
Another hybrid - a strong dump colony - have no idea (yet).
Another hybrid - a strong swarm - have no idea (yet).

If I have a no idea yet - I predict 7-8 frames will be sufficient without looking.

It is better to make them tight on fewer, heavy frames + plus have empty air pocket(s) for side ventilation.

If left on 12 frames, the last 1-2-3 frames will be un-occupied and only collect moisture and mold.

Now is a good time to go around, pull light frames outside of the board, scrape them so to incite the bees to take that honey into the condensed nest.
OR - put the light frame into storage for later (it is getting cooler now - moths are no longer an issue).


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## GregB

So, starting about now (in my setting) - all my long hives (including hybrids, no difference) - go through the condensing down.

#1 - if I still have supers on (which I do)

I remove all good frames for myself and have the bees clear out the sub-standard frames for themselves
simply separate the super from the brood-nest by some flex separator (plastic or fiber)
leave small passage(s)
the bees will empty the frames (having frames spaced out widely helps)

#2 - install a board (if not already)

move all substandard nest frames out side of it
scrape the cappings
space the emptied frames widely if possible
Both #1 and #2 have the ultimate goal of consolidation of the stores onto the few frames that will go through the winter.

#1 and #2 can be combined and done at once.
Or staggered in time.
Whatever works.

ADDED: of course, #2 can also be combined with harvest - take whole frames for yourself OR directly cut out chunks of honey from the frames - the bees will cleanup the mess and the comb remnants; I make all kind of mess outside of the board - a non-issue. (be mindfull of the robbing - obviously)


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## ursa_minor

GregB said:


> So, starting about now (in my setting) - all my long hives (including hybrids, no difference) - go through the condensing down.


In my northern setting that is done, done, and done. Frames condensed down to 7 in the brood nest, the feeding of sugar syrup is wrapping up as most of the stores were canola honey, which granulate in the combs.

I left a space of about 3 weeks from honey removal and feeding in order to get them to consume some of the canola stores in the brood frames and now replace with sugar syrup. I have no idea if this works or is needed but hey, no point in feeding too early.

Now to consider how my winter wrap up will move forward.


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## crofter

I chickened out on condensing the frames on the two colonies in the tall way frames. One side is 11 of 9 1/8" Lang frames and the other side of the partition there is 11 of the 11 1/4" Dadant size lang frames. Being that the frames are standing rather than hanging I did not want to risk going thru them again. I will just settle for examining them in the spring and see how they set up camp. Quite likely there will be surplus stores left which I could have pulled out or put behind followers.


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## ursa_minor

crofter said:


> I chickened out on condensing the frames on the two colonies in the tall way frames. One side is 11 of 9 1/8" Lang frames and the other side of the partition there is 11 of the 11 1/4" Dadant size lang frames. Being that the frames are standing rather than hanging I did not want to risk going thru them again. I will just settle for examining them in the spring and see how they set up camp. Quite likely there will be surplus stores left which I could have pulled out or put behind followers.


I am looking forward to hearing what the spring brings you.

I left 9 deep Layens last winter on both hives. One hive ended up with 4 frames of stores left and the other only one (it did have some left in other frames). But, and this is a big but, I did not pull the frames and go into the nest to check leftover stores until May 5th. The local advice is to do a quick check in the first two weeks of March and feed so the bees don't starve. So if I went by the late March timeline, IMO, they would have had plenty left. I settled on 7 this season, with the possibility to 'chicken out' and just leave an extra frame of stores at the outer edge of one of the hives, leaving it 8. 

I do have sugar on top of the frames as insurance and the hives did consume some of that. The hive with 5 frames left consumed the most and started on it earlier but I considered the possibility that they had consumed the honey in a way that had left them unable to cross back over an already empty frame during the cold, so the sugar was their only viable option.


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## Gray Goose

crofter said:


> I am a bit further along with my Layens and deep Lang hive. It can use my custom 13" deep Langstroth frames in two rows of 9 which can be supered with 10 frame boxes as the pictures show, or the 13" Lang frames can be stood on their end If the hive is used Layens style. Connected pairs of medium dept frames can stand on end. Notice frame rests on both ends and sides.
> 
> The removable center divider provides frame rests when the Lang frames are used lengthwise or when two Layens colonies are housed. Actually you could have a Layens vertical colony in one end and a conventional Langstroth colony at the same time. I think it has endless possibilities for someone who wants to play around and compare Langstroth and Layens equipment. Regular available depth frames of either one or custom depth up to19". I have cut the depth to 20"


Hi Frank
in pic 3 you show side by side medium foundation in a frame.
How has that worked out?
is the center wood in the way for the queen?

the Dadant foundation dificulty, has me wondering if this would be a better plan as the medium foundation is very available,

GG


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## crofter

Gray Goose said:


> Hi Frank
> in pic 3 you show side by side medium foundation in a frame.
> How has that worked out?
> is the center wood in the way for the queen?
> 
> the Dadant foundation dificulty, has me wondering if this would be a better plan as the medium foundation is very available,
> 
> GG


That coupled frame did not actually go into the hive. I used the set of frames drawn out horizontally in a deep Lang box. Remember the colonies tilted forward 45 degrees? The coupled mediums would be attractive to someone who wanted to split and extract separately. If I remember correctly they come up to a bit shy of the frame dimension of Layens box. Close enough though. Even the standard 11 1/4 Dadant frame is a bit shy standing in a Layens dimension. The depth of a frame designed for 2 medium boxes stacked is 12 3/4" getting really close. I have some sidebars made 13 " which would give conventional bee space at sides but have not assembled yet.

From memory a full sheet of deep plastic plus half of another sheet adds up to a good foundation for a Layens width frame. Some cobination of foundations will fit. It is quick to rip to make it fit.


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## bjorn

I've been using the side by side mediums ziptied together for 2 seasons now. The bees don't seem to care. I realize the orientation of the cells is off by 90 degress, but again, they don't seem to care. I ziptied them thinking I may want to cut them apart and harvest. What I have found is that I don't. If I want them to fill a super, I put it on top and they fill it. I leave the frames in the brood chamber alone. As I cycle comb out, I will remove the center wood (bottom bars of the med frames) and let them build contiguous comb on their own. I don't use foundation on my "made to size" layens frames. I use a popsicle stick on the top bar and 2 bamboo skewers across, dividing the frame in thirds. They draw out beautiful comb on them if sandwiched between 2 already drawn combs.


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## GregB

bjorn said:


> I ziptied them thinking I may want to cut them apart and harvest. What I have found is that I don't. If I want them to fill a super, I put it on top and they fill it. I leave the frames in the brood chamber alone.


Exactly.
This is exactly how it works out in practice.


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