# All hives must have movable frames.



## Ecaz (Jan 14, 2014)

Inspection Conditions: Each apiary site shall be maintained in such a manner as to allow reasonable access for inspection. All hives must have movable frames.

Hello, as you have read above, my local apiary regulations require that all hives must have movable frames.

Can you tell me, do 'top bar' style hives, such as a Warre hive, constitute a 'movable frame' ... after all, there is a removable top bar, it's just not encircled on all four sides, bit it's definitely movable...

Thanks!


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## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

Top bar is definitely moveable (well depending on type). Warre is a little different story. For a Warre hive to meet the requirement, each box should have it's own top bar (not a continuous comb from the first box) 

Here's the rub. They have frames, but Tanzanian and Warre hives have straight sides and the bees tend to bond the comb to the sides. The Kenyan top bar hives have slanted sides and the bees tend not to bond to the sides, allowing you to remove frames for inspection much more easily.

So, if you don't mind the state apiarist coming in with a hive tool and hacking away at the sides of your boxes, or tearing the comb from the bottom of the Warre hive boxes to inspect your hives, go ahead and use a top bar only. However, if I were to have a Tanzanian or Warre hive, I would add sides and bottoms to my frames. You don't have to use foundation, but I would have the full frames in those hives. Not that the state apiarist doesn't care about your hive, it's just a matter of time. In VA, we have one guy. Keith is an awesome guy, but if he has to cover the state, with travel time and multiple hives per yard, it's impossible for him to take the same care a beekeeper would. We do him and us a favor by making it easy for him to pull a frame and evaluate for disease.


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## Ecaz (Jan 14, 2014)

RobWok said:


> Top bar is definitely moveable (well depending on type). Warre is a little different story. For a Warre hive to meet the requirement, each box should have it's own top bar (not a continuous comb from the first box)
> 
> Here's the rub. They have frames, but Tanzanian and Warre hives have straight sides and the bees tend to bond the comb to the sides. The Kenyan top bar hives have slanted sides and the bees tend not to bond to the sides, allowing you to remove frames for inspection much more easily.
> 
> So, if you don't mind the state apiarist coming in with a hive tool and hacking away at the sides of your boxes, or tearing the comb from the bottom of the Warre hive boxes to inspect your hives, go ahead and use a top bar only. However, if I were to have a Tanzanian or Warre hive, I would add sides and bottoms to my frames. You don't have to use foundation, but I would have the full frames in those hives. Not that the state apiarist doesn't care about your hive, it's just a matter of time. In VA, we have one guy. Keith is an awesome guy, but if he has to cover the state, with travel time and multiple hives per yard, it's impossible for him to take the same care a beekeeper would. We do him and us a favor by making it easy for him to pull a frame and evaluate for disease.


That's great info!

I will definitely look into using frames in a Warre hive then. I don't mind TBH either, I just like the Warre hives use vertical space, since it fits in a smaller area.


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## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

Glad to help. It was a topic in our local club as we had a beekeeper that wanted to keep Warre hives. 

I hope to get a couple built myself this winter. I currently have Langstroth 10 and 8 frame, Top Bars, and an observation hive. I'm hopefully going to get some quilt boxes put on my Langstroth for the rest of the winter, and build some Warre for the spring. The sticky part to a Warre frame is that you can't buy Warre frames. It's hard to build your own frames and not have them come apart. The current forked-type "dadant" frames are very strong, but not easily built at home without some skill. That may take you more time than building the boxes, so plan accordingly.
Rob.


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## mountainbee27 (May 21, 2009)

In the state were I live you do not have to have movable frames. Even if you did I still wouldn't because bees in the wild don't have frames and neither will my hives. As far as inspection I want be having any, I don't want the government prawling around in what God has created and trying to change it. They have messed everything else up already, so they can leave the bees alone.


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## Ecaz (Jan 14, 2014)

mountainbee27 said:


> In the state were I live you do not have to have movable frames. Even if you did I still wouldn't because bees in the wild don't have frames and neither will my hives. As far as inspection I want be having any, I don't want the government prawling around in what God has created and trying to change it. They have messed everything else up already, so they can leave the bees alone.


That's a fair point. I've emailed my local apiary inspector and asked about Warre frames in our district, so we'll see what comes back


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## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

mountainbee27 said:


> In the state were I live you do not have to have movable frames. Even if you did I still wouldn't because bees in the wild don't have frames and neither will my hives. As far as inspection I want be having any, I don't want the government prawling around in what God has created and trying to change it. They have messed everything else up already, so they can leave the bees alone.


In the wild, bees live in trees. So, are all your hives made of rotten hollow trees? They usually are several feet off the ground, so you use ladders to rob honey? God didn't make square trees, and when an animal or human in the past robs the honey from a natural hive, they destroy the hive to get it. Do you plan on busting up your hives anytime you want some honey?

You can't make an absolute statement like the one above, but then cheat by making other parts convenient. The frames make things easier on beekeeper as well as bee. Now, if you never plan to extract honey, and just want to keep bees for pollination, go ahead. I've pulled honeycome that was almost 3 feet long out of walls in houses. I wouldn't want to cut that in half to pull honey off the top of a warre and then let the honey drip to the bottom of my hive and encourage robbing by other bees. If you're going to put it in a square box, then you should use frames. My top bar has sloped sides, and it's very unobtrusive to go in and pull a single frame of capped honey off the end without disturbing the bees. If I had to cut the sides and bottom of that same frame from a Warre, I'm tearing up comb, killing bees, and disturbing the hive quite a bit. The bee doesn't know it's a frame. They think it's a natural obstruction just like you'd find in a rotten, hollowed out tree. If you've ever looked at a wild hive, you can see the bees have all kinds of shapes and obstructions they have to deal with
As far as government intrusion, I agree. They mess up everything they touch. But I'm not going to go frameless just to spite them and make things miserable on me and my bees.

Rob.


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## Ecaz (Jan 14, 2014)

RobWok said:


> In the wild, bees live in trees. So, are all your hives made of rotten hollow trees? They usually are several feet off the ground, so you use ladders to rob honey? God didn't make square trees, and when an animal or human in the past robs the honey from a natural hive, they destroy the hive to get it. Do you plan on busting up your hives anytime you want some honey?
> 
> You can't make an absolute statement like the one above, but then cheat by making other parts convenient. The frames make things easier on beekeeper as well as bee. Now, if you never plan to extract honey, and just want to keep bees for pollination, go ahead. I've pulled honeycome that was almost 3 feet long out of walls in houses. I wouldn't want to cut that in half to pull honey off the top of a warre and then let the honey drip to the bottom of my hive and encourage robbing by other bees. If you're going to put it in a square box, then you should use frames. My top bar has sloped sides, and it's very unobtrusive to go in and pull a single frame of capped honey off the end without disturbing the bees. If I had to cut the sides and bottom of that same frame from a Warre, I'm tearing up comb, killing bees, and disturbing the hive quite a bit. The bee doesn't know it's a frame. They think it's a natural obstruction just like you'd find in a rotten, hollowed out tree. If you've ever looked at a wild hive, you can see the bees have all kinds of shapes and obstructions they have to deal with
> As far as government intrusion, I agree. They mess up everything they touch. But I'm not going to go frameless just to spite them and make things miserable on me and my bees.
> ...


Rob,

If I'm reading this correctly, you're using TBH's not Warre hives, right?

Thanks for your valuable feedback!


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## RobWok (May 18, 2011)

Yes, I'm using both Langstroth and TBH. I plan on adding Warre. I've got some folks in my club that use Warre and we've talked about them extensively and what the challenges are. I've also researched them quite a bit myself. I've also designed my own observation hive, and successfully run and watched that for years, and I do several cutouts from hives in homes as well as downed trees and other structures. I've cut a lot of comb over the years, and how it affects the bees when you cut it, and I'm a big fan of frames in hives you plan to manage. If you're just using them for polination, and dont care about honey or queen breeding, or expanding your hives, you could used fixed frames, but in the event of a foulbrood outbreak, you could run afoul of your state.

Rob


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## Ecaz (Jan 14, 2014)

RobWok said:


> Yes, I'm using both Langstroth and TBH. I plan on adding Warre. I've got some folks in my club that use Warre and we've talked about them extensively and what the challenges are. I've also researched them quite a bit myself. I've also designed my own observation hive, and successfully run and watched that for years, and I do several cutouts from hives in homes as well as downed trees and other structures. I've cut a lot of comb over the years, and how it affects the bees when you cut it, and I'm a big fan of frames in hives you plan to manage. If you're just using them for polination, and dont care about honey or queen breeding, or expanding your hives, you could used fixed frames, but in the event of a foulbrood outbreak, you could run afoul of your state.
> 
> Rob


Thanks again!

I'm going to call my local apiary inspector if I don't get a reply to my email.

It looks like what I'm after is a modified Warre hive  

I have no problem using frames vs no frames, in an open hive, so if it's less drama to use frames, so bee it.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I'm under the impression that God also placed European honey bees in Europe. Gonna be a long ride to that bee-gum across the Atlantic. But don't travel on any roads or pull your boat into any ports. Way too much government socialism around those places.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

All topbar hive keepers should have an old fashioned bur comb tool. it will easily separate the side bond to the box with very minimal damage, and you can remove the entire comb easily. Easy to make one, hard to find to buy. Loan it to your inspector!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ecaz said:


> Inspection Conditions: Each apiary site shall be maintained in such a manner as to allow reasonable access for inspection. All hives must have movable frames.
> 
> Hello, as you have read above, my local apiary regulations require that all hives must have movable frames.
> 
> ...


Yes, as long as your Apiary Inspector is reasonable and reasonablly knowledgeable.


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## jimsteelejr (Sep 21, 2012)

enough with the antigovernment tirade. The government makes a lot of mistakes and there is a lot of graft and laziness but think where you would be with out somebody enforcing all the health laws-Milk from cows with tb, with no refrigeration and poor sanitation-the list could go on forever. 
Bee inspectors generally do a lot more for us than against us.The rule about moveable frames to so that the bee inspector (and the apiarist also) can check the hive for disease. How would you like to have a large operation and have some yahoo move in next door with a bunch of hives with foulbrood?
Our local inspector has gone to bat with city and county governments who evidently have not heard of the State of Florida ruling that the cities and other local governments can not prohibit bee keeping. Don't knock the inspectors and don't keep hives that you can't check.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

You can use Warre', top bar or whatever style of hive you chose in Florida. You will be the one manipulating the frames for the inspector.


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## Ledge (Dec 15, 2010)

jimsteelejr said:


> enough with the antigovernment tirade. The government makes a lot of mistakes and there is a lot of graft and laziness but think where you would be with out somebody enforcing all the health laws-Milk from cows with tb, with no refrigeration and poor sanitation-the list could go on forever.
> Bee inspectors generally do a lot more for us than against us.The rule about moveable frames to so that the bee inspector (and the apiarist also) can check the hive for disease. How would you like to have a large operation and have some yahoo move in next door with a bunch of hives with foulbrood?
> Our local inspector has gone to bat with city and county governments who evidently have not heard of the State of Florida ruling that the cities and other local governments can not prohibit bee keeping. Don't knock the inspectors and don't keep hives that you can't check.


I can't let this go without a comment. How much of our food supply do you think is actually inspected by government officials? What is this notion that if regulatory agencies ceased to exist, that all food suppliers would suddenly start selling their customers poison? Would you buy a bad jug of milk too many times before you switched brands? 
I have no problem with our state apiary inspectors, and believe that they probably have way too much to do, and not enough time to do it in most locales. I just don't buy in to the notion that added regulation and bureaucracy is the answer to any of our problems. I don't believe that a person experimenting with a few unconventional hives is going to destroy the bee world as we know it.


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## Ecaz (Jan 14, 2014)

AmericasBeekeeper said:


> You can use Warre', top bar or whatever style of hive you chose in Florida. You will be the one manipulating the frames for the inspector.


Excellent, thank you!


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