# 18 bars of brood in a 30 bar hive



## beesonja (Jun 16, 2017)

Hello everyone! I hope you have had a good start this summer! I think I am off to a good start this year... last year was my first year and I lost my 3 hives to varroa in October. I learned a lot of lessons last year. This year I bought 3 packages from a different vendor and did a sugar roll 2 weeks ago and had no mites. I will continue to check. 

These bees also started off with many bars of drawn comb and some honey to get them started. We are 6.5 weeks in and one hive has 18 bars of brood, 3 empty and the rest is honey, nectar, empty comb. The other 2 hives have 16 bars of brood and a few honey, nectar and several still empty. I have been adding empty bars between the brood nest and honey to let them build straight comb and decide whether they want to make them honey or brood combs. 

2 questions: 

1. One of the hives filled a hatched brood comb with nectar right in the middle of the brood nest. Is this a problem?

2. Is it normal to have this much brood this time of year? Is it possible that I will be able to do a split? I do have a 4th empty hive and would love to try out a Purdue ankle biter queen. 

sonja


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Hello, Sonja,

for this sort of question, it might be helpful to know waht are the dimensions of your hive, and what is the length of your top bars.

Thanks,
Thomas


beesonja said:


> Hello everyone! I hope you have had a good start this summer! I think I am off to a good start this year... last year was my first year and I lost my 3 hives to varroa in October. I learned a lot of lessons last year. This year I bought 3 packages from a different vendor and did a sugar roll 2 weeks ago and had no mites. I will continue to check.
> 
> These bees also started off with many bars of drawn comb and some honey to get them started. We are 6.5 weeks in and one hive has 18 bars of brood, 3 empty and the rest is honey, nectar, empty comb. The other 2 hives have 16 bars of brood and a few honey, nectar and several still empty. I have been adding empty bars between the brood nest and honey to let them build straight comb and decide whether they want to make them honey or brood combs.
> 
> ...


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

> 1. One of the hives filled a hatched brood comb with nectar right in the middle of the brood nest. Is this a problem?



They should move it. You may need to harvest soon if the hive is approaching full.



> 2. Is it normal to have this much brood this time of year?



Yes.



> Is it possible that I will be able to do a split?



Yes. You could take 2 frames from each of your hives to make a split so as to not over tax any of them and still make honey.


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## beesonja (Jun 16, 2017)

Yunzow said:


> Hello, Sonja,
> 
> for this sort of question, it might be helpful to know waht are the dimensions of your hive, and what is the length of your top bars.
> 
> ...


the total length of a bar is 17.25 inches, the bottom of the trapezoid is 6 inches. The area of one side of filled out comb is 100 square inches.


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## beesonja (Jun 16, 2017)

Clayton Huestis said:


> They should move it. You may need to harvest soon if the hive is approaching full.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you, Clayton!


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

My tbh's are 1x 12's for sides and 1x10 for bottom (mangum style) a little bigger than yours and average 15-16 combs of brood. They are 5 ft. long with a follower board to take up excessive empty space. If you are finding your hives are a little small for big honey crops you may want to make some 5ft hives. Or just harvest frequently.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

beesonja said:


> 1. One of the hives filled a hatched brood comb with nectar right in the middle of the brood nest. Is this a problem?
> 
> 2. Is it normal to have this much brood this time of year? Is it possible that I will be able to do a split? I do have a 4th empty hive and would love to try out a Purdue ankle biter queen.
> 
> sonja


You should move the nectar filled comb away from the entrance (mb even into the honey section); just pluck it and move.
Replace it by an empty bar.
In fact, it seems you should checkerboard you brood nest a bit (so to not constipate the queen  and at the same time have some fresh combs built).
Maybe plug 2-3-4 empty bars in 0I0I0I0 fashion and get them busy working.
Do add the empty bars directly into brood nest (brood comb is much more valuable than honey comb and you need to rotate it out anyway, gradually).


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## beesonja (Jun 16, 2017)

Clayton Huestis said:


> My tbh's are 1x 12's for sides and 1x10 for bottom (mangum style) a little bigger than yours and average 15-16 combs of brood. They are 5 ft. long with a follower board to take up excessive empty space. If you are finding your hives are a little small for big honey crops you may want to make some 5ft hives. Or just harvest frequently.


that is big! I do wish mine were a little bigger, they'll have to do for now.


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## beesonja (Jun 16, 2017)

I moved it to the honey end of the brood chamber today since not all of the brood was hatched. I did checkerboard a lot last year to get them to build straight comb and expand the brood chamber. I just put 3 empties between the brood and honey today, thinking the brood chamber was big enough and they can choose which to make. The do make the comb super fast when it's in the brood chamber though.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

beesonja said:


> ...thinking the brood chamber was big enough and they can choose which to make.


Brood chamber is never too big.
You should think about gradually rotating combs out.
You insert where the "fire burns the hottest", so to speak, to push the older combs out and to create fresh brood comb.
You then remove old combs when the "fire cools off" (to harvest or to storage).

Honey comb is mostly low quality junk, no good for anything else but honey and maybe drones.
Brood comb is high quality comb and expensive and you should create it every chance you get.

Anyhow, this is my logic as I am trying to regress my bees down.


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## Murdock (Jun 16, 2013)

Yes, I agree with Clayton that you could make a nuc exactly as he said. I think I would wait until the flow is over so you could harvest some honey and the donor hives would be a little stronger too.
Move any honey/nectar out of the brood nest and to the rear of the hive. If you will research the Layens Hive there is good info there about bar/comb manipulation. Check top bar hives often to prevent a honey bound hive and swarming.


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## beesonja (Jun 16, 2017)

Ok then. I will move my empties to the brood chamber and checkerboard them. I don't think Indiana queens are ready yet anyway. Thank you guys for the advice!


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

For a hive that is going through the spring/summer with drawn comb, I am finding that when I add an empty bar (or foundationless frame), that all they make is drone/honey comb. There are 12 or so bars of brood comb (my hives are the height/width of a Lang deep frame, about 30 frames long). And when I add an empty to the brood chamber, it becomes drone brood. 

I read in Dadant's "the hive and the honey bee" that if the queen is not nearby looking for space to lay, then the workers make drone sized cells. I am really seeing that this year in all 3 hives. 

But I think I found a way to stimulate more worker comb.... I am putting capped brood behind a follower (there is a bee space sized hole for workers to get through). So there are fewer spaces for the queen to lay, until my empty frames get drawn out.


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Oh and as to how much brood is normal - some fun math you can do. According to this link (https://americanbeejournal.com/beekeeping-by-the-numbers-2/) there are 25 brood cells in a square inch. If your comb is 100 square inches, probably only about 75 sq inches are being used for brood - so 2 sides x 75 sq inches x 25 brood = 3750 cells of brood in a bar. 

If the queen is laying 1000 eggs a day, then she takes about 3.5 days to do one bar, and after 21 days, that bar will be wide open. By the time 21 days have passed, the queen will be finishing a 6th bar and then the first will be emerging. So only 6 bars will have brood when the queen is laying 1000 eggs a day.

If the queen is laying 2000 eggs a day, then she takes half the time - 1.75 days - to lay one bar completely. By the time she finishes the 12th bar, the first is emerging. So she can only keep 12 bars full of brood.

Egg laying rates of 4000 eggs a day - so more than 20 bars filled with brood - are probably due to a mother-daughter duo laying. It happens something like 10% of hives, when the hive supercedes the queen, the daughter lays along side her until the queen dies or is chased out. 

So this is max brood time, and as the nectar/pollen flow dries up, it's likely that brood nest will contract. I really like how clearly we can see the size of the brood nest with a top bar hive! In a lang, takes a lot more work to suss out how many frames have brood.


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## beesonja (Jun 16, 2017)

trishbookworm said:


> For a hive that is going through the spring/summer with drawn comb, I am finding that when I add an empty bar (or foundationless frame), that all they make is drone/honey comb. There are 12 or so bars of brood comb (my hives are the height/width of a Lang deep frame, about 30 frames long). And when I add an empty to the brood chamber, it becomes drone brood.
> 
> I read in Dadant's "the hive and the honey bee" that if the queen is not nearby looking for space to lay, then the workers make drone sized cells. I am really seeing that this year in all 3 hives.
> 
> But I think I found a way to stimulate more worker comb.... I am putting capped brood behind a follower (there is a bee space sized hole for workers to get through). So there are fewer spaces for the queen to lay, until my empty frames get drawn out.


I am going to keep a close eye on that. I did pullout a bar today that filled with all drones on both sides. What do you do with your drone comb?


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

I am culling capped drone comb in all hives except my Minnesota hygenic hive. The other hives are "half-Minnesota hygenic half-flew over the fence) and I want more drones from the original queen mother. Looks like she swarmed or was superceded last couple weeks tho so now I cut out all. I cut sideways or pull up but not by pulling down, using my hive tool.


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## beesonja (Jun 16, 2017)

trishbookworm said:


> I am culling capped drone comb in all hives except my Minnesota hygenic hive. The other hives are "half-Minnesota hygenic half-flew over the fence) and I want more drones from the original queen mother. Looks like she swarmed or was superceded last couple weeks tho so now I cut out all. I cut sideways or pull up but not by pulling down, using my hive tool.


Ok, I'm getting into my hives on Thursday to split and will check for more drone comb, I'm curious to see if the empty bars I put in the brood chamber last week are drone or worker. I can't wait to get my new queen! Her "pedigree": From Bob Anderson at Bee Street Honey, As a member of the Indiana Queen Breeders Association, we are breeding bees that contain genetics from mite-biter bees developed at Purdue University Bee Labs, and from Varroa sensitive hygiene (VSH) bees developed at the USDA Honey Bee Labs and the University of Minnesota.


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## beesonja (Jun 16, 2017)

trishbookworm said:


> Oh and as to how much brood is normal - some fun math you can do. According to this link (https://americanbeejournal.com/beekeeping-by-the-numbers-2/) there are 25 brood cells in a square inch. If your comb is 100 square inches, probably only about 75 sq inches are being used for brood - so 2 sides x 75 sq inches x 25 brood = 3750 cells of brood in a bar.
> 
> If the queen is laying 1000 eggs a day, then she takes about 3.5 days to do one bar, and after 21 days, that bar will be wide open. By the time 21 days have passed, the queen will be finishing a 6th bar and then the first will be emerging. So only 6 bars will have brood when the queen is laying 1000 eggs a day.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the math, Trish! Very interesting! I thought I responded last week, but I just not have clicked "post". I really enjoyed that article too. With the amount of brood in these hives, I'm guessing these queens are laying closer to 2000.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

trishbookworm said:


> .. *I am putting capped brood behind a follower* (there is a bee space sized hole for workers to get through). So there are fewer spaces for the queen to lay, until my empty frames get drawn out.


Good tip!
I just may need to use this one, selectively.


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