# $1.75 Honey



## sqkcrk

I have a friend who asked me if I'd heard of anyone getting $1.75/lb for their honey. I have not. Has anyone else?

I do have another friend who told me today that a western honey buyer offered to pay him $1.50 for his honey, to be picked up in northern NY. What w/ the price of fuel, that would make the investment in the honey more than $1.75. Wouldn't it? The honey producer and the honey buyer are about 1,000 miles apart.

Is there a shortage of honey in the U.S.? Forgien suppliers?

Any ideas?


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## greenbeekeeping

Nope haven't heard of that high. $1.50 yes.


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## irwin harlton

*was that buckwheat honey or white*

honey, .........freight is cheap if your hungrey


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## the buzz

*price*

honey is 1.40$ for white wholesale and 2.75$ retail


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## Constance

*Units mixed up?*

Hi

Looks like somebody mixed up $/lb and EUR/kg. International market prices are about 1.70 EUR/kg in barrels.

Kind regards

Michael


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## mwjohnson

Mark,
try giving alan nirschl a call. he says he is getting $120./5gal. pail from a guy from vermont.
hope he will share,LOL
mark


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## Ian

Our honey cooperative is suggesting the market holding at 1.5$ Canadian funds, Not too far of US funds anyway,


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## the buzz

*the price is right*

white Honey 1.40$ per lb wholesale and 2.75$-3.00$ per lb retail or 6.00$ per kg . I am also a math Professor.
thanks Steve


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## the buzz

*Thanks Ian*

canadian dollar .96 vs american (around my area its even 1-1)


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## sqkcrk

mwjohnson said:


> Mark,
> try giving alan nirschl a call. he says he is getting $120./5gal. pail from a guy from vermont.
> hope he will share,LOL
> mark


That's what I sell my 5 gallon containers for too. But usually to stores or individuals. I'll give Allan a call. See ya at ESHPA?


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## dcross

sqkcrk said:


> That's what I sell my 5 gallon containers for too.


$24/gallon? $.67/pound? Yikes!


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## RDY-B

better double check those figures :scratch: RDY-B


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## sqkcrk

dcross said:


> $24/gallon? $.67/pound? Yikes!


Right and WRONG.

Five gallons of honey/ 60 lbs of honey at $120.00 per comes out to $2.00 per lb. Not 67 cents. So $24.00/gallon is correct and 67cents per pound is incorrect. I don't know how you got the 67 cents/lb idea. Maybe you shouldn't use a calculator.


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## dcross

Sorry guys, sometimes I pull one out of... well someplace anyway:0


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## sqkcrk

dcross said:


> Sorry guys, sometimes I pull one out of... well someplace anyway:0


Thin air, perhaps?


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## Dan Williamson

I've been selling some pails at $140 each.


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## sqkcrk

Dan Williamson said:


> I've been selling some pails at $140 each.


Some? How many? I have been thinking about going up to $2.50/lb. $150.00/ bucket.


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## Dan Williamson

sqkcrk said:


> Some? How many? I have been thinking about going up to $2.50/lb. $150.00/ bucket.


I only harvested 5 drums this year so my supply is limited. So you can take my comments with a grain of salt. I obviously retail most of my honey but offered pails at $140. I only sold a handful because I decided to stop selling anymore this year as it would have wiped out my supply. The demand was there.

I had one guy who wanted up to 1,400 lbs in pails at that price. I told him I couldn't do that volume. I have sold some to others at that price. I have been moving the honey retail in small containers quite fast and obviously make more money that way.

I guess I was just surprised at the demand at $140/pail. 

FWIW.... most of the interest came from other beekeepers.


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## the buzz

stick together on the price. You are better to produce less and sell it more expensive. Less work more playtime and more money. Look at gas prices... I don't know about you guys down in the states , but here it's 1.40$ a litre , but Canada hasn't sold a drop less....


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## Michael Palmer

I got $1.50 for most of my extracted crop, about 34T, in my customer's pails. The rest is going for $1.75 to small packers. They're not complaining a bit. In fact, they're glad to get it.


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## jjgbee

LA area lt. amber in barrels going for $1.20. In Kansas they are paying around $1.40. Golden Heritage honey at Costco is $11.50 for three bears, (4.5 lbs) in LA. I sell water white sage in 5 ga buckets for $160.00. Up from $130.00 per bucket. There was a little resistance to the new price but my customers are coming around. Oct 2 2008


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## Beeslave

I thought bumping this up would be fitting for present prices being offered.lol


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## irwin harlton

US large packer confirmed ,CANADIAN HONEY OFFERED AT 1.25 US,delivered, =1.83 Canadian, less freight,duty, customs brokerage
No takers ,or very little moving...............large carryover in the US.............hungry,starving packers are the best buyers


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## jim lyon

irwin harlton said:


> US large packer confirmed ,CANADIAN HONEY OFFERED AT 1.25 US,delivered, =1.83 Canadian, less freight,duty, customs brokerage
> No takers ,or very little moving...............large carryover in the US.............hungry,starving packers are the best buyers


Yes, I've heard the same from quite reliable sources. Buyers simply aren't buying, depressing to say the least. Fortunately many of us in the US have almond pollination to fall back on.


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## drlonzo

Does anyone have a clue why it is that the buyers are sitting on their hands here? Is it cheap overseas honey flooding the market, or an overabundance in the US causing this? Just trying to understand the problem...


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## BernhardHeuvel

Must be a global problem. Same here in Germany: buyers don't buy at the moment. There are rumors out, that prices will go down this year, here in Germany that is. At least for bulk honey. With no obvious reason. :scratch:


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## MichaBees

Im part of a large Facebook beekeeping forum where I have several friends that are mayor exporters in Mexico, Venezuela, Argentina and Uruguay. They all are reporting bottom prices and excess inventories. The honeys from new emerging countries at the Honey International Markets are making an impact. Some good quality honey from Argentina was offered at $1.20 and it did not get a bite. There is honey from Mexico, produced and bottled for the European Market wish has a strict set of health requirements being offered at $1.25 to $1.40. Mesquite and Orange Blossom Honeys are holding a good demand and price at around $1.60 to $1.90 per pound already at a USA port but, most of it is consumed in Europe. Creamed Yellow is keeping a high demand from the Germans and Japan and last year, a large force of Chinese buyers were trying to get as much honey from mangle and the Creamed Yellow. This Chinese buyers are offering more for the honey than the Germans and even Argentinians that have established themselves in Mexico as mayor buyers. The one thing that under my un-educated eye is still going for the USA produced honeys is that people want to buy American Honey and willing to pay the price. The international market has a large inventory of honeys that will keep on putting pressure into all the industry to keep prices down.


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## popejohnpaul2

Could it have anything to do with recent and expected currency fluctuations? The USD is expected to strengthen against virtually every other currency around the globe. A stronger dollar means the ability to buy more honey per dollar and/or gives packers a reason to push down US produced honey prices. Buyers don't like to buy today if they expect lower prices tomorrow...


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## jim lyon

drlonzo said:


> Does anyone have a clue why it is that the buyers are sitting on their hands here? Is it cheap overseas honey flooding the market, or an overabundance in the US causing this? Just trying to understand the problem...


I think it's the byproduct of a strong dollar attracting imports and the mentality of a falling market I know what it isn't. It isn't a lack of consumer demand but rather a lack of consumers that demand US honey. The US consumes well over 400 million lbs. annually but usually produces around 150 million pounds. Currently the US imports around a million pounds per day of product that is labeled honey and believed to be from the posted country of origin. China is far and away the leader in world honey production. Add that all up and come to your own conclusions.


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## Harley Craig

jim lyon said:


> I think it's the byproduct of a strong dollar attracting imports and the mentality of a falling market I know what it isn't. It isn't a lack of consumer demand but rather a lack of consumers that demand US honey. The US consumes well over 400 million lbs. annually but usually produces around 150 million pounds. Currently the US imports around a million pounds per day of product that is labeled honey and believed to be from the posted country of origin. China is far and away the leader in world honey production. Add that all up and come to your own conclusions.



Are US consumers lacking demand for US honey or commercial honey? Are more people trying to find local beekeepers as their source? I know it would take ALOT of hobbyist beekeepers to produce even a drop in the bucket for the needs for lets say a single bakery, but retail local honey seems to be going through the roof. I sell for $9/lb and seen it go between 14-20 in some markets. I know cheep honey at our local grocery store has dust sitting on the bottles because they don't turn over, yet me and every other local guy can't keep enough in stock. Do you feel this even makes a dent in the commercial market?


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## jim lyon

Harley, certainly it's an element of the market for sure. I think perhaps only the stores themselves have the statistics showing just how much local honey is sold as local at these higher prices. Most any grocery store seems to stock such local products (including the biggies like Wal Mart) and it's great for the small producer/marketer. The bottom line, as always, is grocery stores want products that sell, if it's for a higher price then it's better for everyone including the retailer who works on a markup. I would assume, though, that there are shoppers who shop strictly by price and another segment for whom the perception of "healthier" rather than cheaper dominates their decision of which product to buy. I have always felt that honey is an impulse buy more than a grocery list item and therefore must be appealing to the eye and even better if there is an interesting story behind it such as a local address.


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## MNbees

drlonzo said:


> Does anyone have a clue why it is that the buyers are sitting on their hands here? Is it cheap overseas honey flooding the market, or an overabundance in the US causing this? Just trying to understand the problem...



Yes it is cheap imports bringing the prices down. Certain packers, one in Iowa now only deal in imported honey. They have taken many customers from packers like Kallas honey who only deals in domestic honey. A meat processing plant doesn't really care where the honey comes from as long as it makes the honey ham sweet. So if they can pay 30-50 cents less over a million lbs a year its worth it to them. These are facts that suck for us producers.


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## Harley Craig

Jim- I'm not so sure about impulse buy, maybe impulse between which brand to pick, but I see it more as a "sophisticated" purchase to someone who wasn't exposed to it from an early age. That is probably bad terminology, but I don't know how else to describe it. Lets just say that when I was young and starting out and we couldn't really afford a pot to pee in, honey was nowhere near my radar. It wasn't until I was old enough to care more about my health and learned that honey was a better alternative than some other sweetners that I started looking into it. I like the story Tim Ive's tells, he got into honey because of MT. Dew. He was drinking like 15 bottles a day and had to quit so for some reason he switched to honey and was going through I believe he said a quart every other day. LOL He decided making his own honey would be cheaper. This has been an interesting conversation and I appreciate all you big guys speaking about it.


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## RichardsonTX

Now that I think about it I hardly ever see any product marketing campaigns about honey that come from large beekeeping associations, honey packers, etcetera. At least not to the extent you see for items like milk or orange juice. Maybe whoever in the supply line has the largest operating margins (like maybe packers?) could be enticed to put on a campaign to promote honey..............especially U.S. honey! 

Since I'm commenting...........Does anyone know where I can find data on market share in the honey packing business? or especially publicly held honey packers? I'm curious about why there is such a large spread between the retail price of honey and what beekeepers are getting for their honey.


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## Harley Craig

RichardsonTX said:


> I'm curious about why there is such a large spread between the retail price of honey and what beekeepers are getting for their honey.



there isn't a huge spread between commercial wholesale and commercial retail. $4.42/lb at walmart. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Value-Clover-Honey-16-Oz/10533931



That seems to be fairly standard markup prices. If you are trying to compare $1.25 wholesale prices to $20 boutique prices, you can't they are apples and oranges. The people buying honey that expensive aren't just buying honey, they are buying " a taste of their neighborhood " as well.


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## RichardsonTX

Harley Craig said:


> there isn't a huge spread between commercial wholesale and commercial retail. $4.42/lb at walmart. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Great-Value-Clover-Honey-16-Oz/10533931
> 
> 
> 
> That seems to be fairly standard markup prices. If you are trying to compare $1.25 wholesale prices to $20 boutique prices, you can't they are apples and oranges. The people buying honey that expensive aren't just buying honey, they are buying " a taste of their neighborhood " as well.


It looks like a huge spread to me even at $4.42/lb retail. Anyone who is a member of a large packing coop care to share what the gross and operating margins are on their income statement? and maybe a total asset figure if they have access to it? and maybe the Selling, General, & Administrative expenses are as a percentage of sales?


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## RichardsonTX

Has anyone compiled any data comparing price movements for what the beekeeper is getting versus retail prices? and maybe how consumption of honey in the U.S. compares to that? I haven't but it seems the beekeeper trying to produce honey as a primary product is getting the short end of the stick in the U.S.


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## clyderoad

RichardsonTX said:


> It looks like a huge spread to me even at $4.42/lb retail. Anyone who is a member of a large packing coop care to share what the gross and operating margins are on their income statement? and maybe a total asset figure if they have access to it? and maybe the Selling, General, & Administrative expenses are as a percentage of sales?


you're kidding yourself asking these questions. This isn't all fun and games for some people. It's business.


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## RichardsonTX

clyderoad said:


> you're kidding yourself asking these questions. This isn't all fun and games for some people. It's business.



Clyde, I am not kidding myself one bit. I'm trying to learn as much as I can about the industry, where the margins are the highest, etcetera and those within the industry need to be keeping themselves informed as much as possible too. Being able to negotiate a better price for your product from another layer in the supply chain who may have some dollars that could go in your pocket is serious business. Understanding the value of what you do in relation to others in the chain is import so that your efforts/investment in the process is properly rewarded.


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## clyderoad

RichardsonTX said:


> Clyde, I am not kidding myself one bit. I'm trying to learn as much as I can about the industry, where the margins are the highest, etcetera and those within the industry need to be keeping themselves informed as much as possible too. Being able to negotiate a better price for your product from another layer in the supply chain who may have some dollars that could go in your pocket is serious business. Understanding the value of what you do in relation to others in the chain is import so that your efforts/investment in the process is properly rewarded.


And you're going to help everyone? on a public forum?
Take a trip over to that packer in McKinney that has organic product in the Costco's along the East Coast to start your learning.


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## Harley Craig

RichardsonTX said:


> It looks like a huge spread to me even at $4.42/lb retail. Anyone who is a member of a large packing coop care to share what the gross and operating margins are on their income statement? and maybe a total asset figure if they have access to it? and maybe the Selling, General, & Administrative expenses are as a percentage of sales?



i'm obviously not a packer but I would GUESS the profit around 30% or less, that is ok, but it's certainly not great.


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## sqkcrk

RichardsonTX said:


> It looks like a huge spread to me even at $4.42/lb retail. Anyone who is a member of a large packing coop care to share what the gross and operating margins are on their income statement? and maybe a total asset figure if they have access to it? and maybe the Selling, General, & Administrative expenses are as a percentage of sales?


I could, I guess, sell honey at $4.42/lb, but that's 58 cents below my wholesale price.

Aren't what you are asking for what would be called proprietary information?


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## sqkcrk

RichardsonTX said:


> I'm curious about why there is such a large spread between the retail price of honey and what beekeepers are getting for their honey.


Just to keep things within the raw foods category, what's the difference between shelf price for Rice and what the producer was paid for it? What about Apples? Or Oranges? Pick any food that someone produces and someone else sells whole and tell me what the difference should be. Maple syrup may be a better example.

Take it a step further, bread or cereal. The difference between what the grain farmer was paid and what the Grocer sells it for.

Milk. Dairy Farmers hang on by the skin of their teeth.

If there is logical rhyme or reason, please let me know.


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## MNbees

sqkcrk said:


> Just to keep things within the raw foods category, what's the difference between shelf price for Rice and what the producer was paid for it? What about Apples? Or Oranges? Pick any food that someone produces and someone else sells whole and tell me what the difference should be. Maple syrup may be a better example.
> 
> Take it a step further, bread or cereal. The difference between what the grain farmer was paid and what the Grocer sells it for.
> 
> Milk. Dairy Farmers hang on by the skin of their teeth.
> 
> If there is logical rhyme or reason, please let me know.


For a commercial beekeeper the difference between rice and honey is pretty obvious. Unless its wild rice in northern MN and you are a hobby beekeeper but thats a whole different deal.

This forum is about why BULK honey is so cheap right now. No offense to anyone but we are not talking about pails of honey here. Millions of pounds of honey is being imported from south america and that is why the honey prices are low. We have more demand for Argentina honey than Argentina does for its own honey. They make good honey just like we do. They demand less for their product I guess.


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## RichardsonTX

sqkcrk, did I touch a raw nerve? I didn't mean to. I just like numbers and how things work/function. Beekeeping happens to be a hobby of mine but I also like reading company financial reports, market reports, learning about different industries, etcetera. I'm kind of like a curious bee and I if I smell honey (money) I check it out. 

As for spreads in other commodities, I'm not interested in them so much right now, although I find them interesting, but for now, just products related to the beekeeping industry. That's why I was asking for information people might be willing to share or direct me to. 

Know any good publications about honey packing operations?


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## Roland

Don't worry about SQKCRK, he is just brutally honest. He did make a good point, you are asking for proprietary information. Unless you are a shareholder in a large company, you may not have access profit information. That is a far cry from iem margins.

The Wall Street Journal had commodities pricing. Pick a few like orange juice and pork bellies, and compare to grocery store prices. I am curious what you find.

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk

MNbees said:


> For a commercial beekeeper the difference between rice and honey is pretty obvious. Unless its wild rice in northern MN and you are a hobby beekeeper but thats a whole different deal.
> 
> This forum is about why BULK honey is so cheap right now. No offense to anyone but we are not talking about pails of honey here. Millions of pounds of honey is being imported from south america and that is why the honey prices are low. We have more demand for Argentina honey than Argentina does for its own honey. They make good honey just like we do. They demand less for their product I guess.


Oh, I'm sorry. I guess I should go back to my previous tag line, "I'm just a 500 hive hobby beekeeper."

Millions of pounds of honey have been imported from Argentina, as well as a number of other Countries like Canada and China, for a long time. So why is there such a sudden drop in the *BULK *price of honey? South America? That's the reason? Did South America produce a really big crop this year?

What about all of the other Sweeteners on the market? Are the businesses that produce our edible food products going elsewhere for their sweeteners? Honeyglazed almonds are mislabeled. There isn't any honey in them. 

Really? It's just one country that's driving the price downward? I'm not a deep thinker, but I find that story too simple.

I know it's anecdotal, but I sold half of my crop, 50 barrels, for $2.50/#. I know that doesn't help raise the price much. But it isn't $1.75.


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## sqkcrk

RichardsonTX said:


> sqkcrk, did I touch a raw nerve? I didn't mean to. I just like numbers and how things work/function. Beekeeping happens to be a hobby of mine but I also like reading company financial reports, market reports, learning about different industries, etcetera. I'm kind of like a curious bee and I if I smell honey (money) I check it out.
> 
> As for spreads in other commodities, I'm not interested in them so much right now, although I find them interesting, but for now, just products related to the beekeeping industry. That's why I was asking for information people might be willing to share or direct me to.
> 
> Know any good publications about honey packing operations?


Sorry, I don't. Maybe you should talk to Kim Flottum and Shane GeBauer. Shane, from Brushy Mountain, gave a really good talk at the eshpa Fall Mtng. You would have enjoyed it. It was all about statistics, with charts and graphs, and 8X10 Colored Glossies with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back ... Oh, shoot, that was another meeting I went to back in the 1970s. (My fellow former Hippies will get the reference.)

Any way, Shane probably has the info you are looking for. One chart he had was about CCD. It was a chart showing the numbers of google searches relating to CCD and when they happened over the last 9 or 10 years. Right after some time in 2006 there was a big spike. That was the first big wave of articles about CCD and the Great Beepocolypes. That's what his hole talk was about.

But what I noticed was a big spike about a year before, which he couldn't tell me what that was when I asked him. The things we don't know.

Back some 20 years ago I was down in the dumps about not making any money at this game and I asked David Hackenberg, "What can I do to effect the price of honey? I'd like to make some money at this." He said, "Sell your hives. Then the rest of us might get paid better."

RichardsonTX, you didn't touch a nerve. That's how I express myself. Bluntly with no panache. Do you get what I was saying about a loaf of bread and the wheat it is made from? Everything else that goes into making that loaf of bread available for the consumer costs more than the wheat. It's farming. It has always ever been such.


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## sqkcrk

Roland said:


> The Wall Street Journal had commodities pricing. Pick a few like orange juice and pork bellies, and compare to grocery store prices. I am curious what you find.
> 
> Crazy Roland


And when you find honey traded as a commodity, let the rest of us know.

Someone mentioned Advertising by the Major Packers. The only time I ever remember seeing anything close to an advertisement of honey on the National level was when Sue Bee was a sponsor of Jeopardy. Other than that, I have never seen honey ads on TV. I don't recall seeing them in Newspapers or Magazine Ads. I don't recall seeing honey in grocery flyers in local newspapers. Just doesn't happen. I don't know why.


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## popejohnpaul2

To further expand on the currency point take a look at the valuations for the both USD/CAD and USD/ARS(Argentinean Peso)

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=CAD&view=1Y 

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=ARS&view=1Y

In the case of the CAD, the USD is ~15% stronger vs a yr ago. In otherwords 1 dollar can buy 15% more canadian honey than just one year prior. In the case of the ARS, the USD is ~58% stronger vs a yr ago. Prices for US made honey need to adjust downward in order to compete with cheaper product abroad.


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## popejohnpaul2

Here is some more data...

Graph linked below shows the top honey producers by country (You will have to select the countries by commodity tab on the left and then select "Honey, natural"). Data is a little stale as it is from 2012, but I'm sure it hasn't changed dramatically.

http://faostat.fao.org/site/339/default.aspx 

Top 8 honey producing nations ranked by total production with the 1yr local currency % fluctuation vs the dollar next to the country, () represents deprecating value

China ~ (6%)
Turkey ~ (29%)
Argentina ~ (58%)
Ukraine ~ (57%)
USA - N/A
Russia ~ (29%)
India ~ (10%)
Mexico ~ (28%)

Now I don't know who exports the most honey to the US, or in other words who we would compete with the most, nor do I know how the supply/demand picture has changed in the past year, I am just trying to demonstrate how strong the USD has become in the past year. A stronger dollar=cheaper imports


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## sqkcrk

Traditionally the countries that the US imports the most honey from have been Argentina and Canada.


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## Fusion_power

> Everything else that goes into making that loaf of bread available for the consumer costs more than the wheat. It's farming. It has always ever been such.


It was not so 70 years ago. The beginning of industrial farming was the beginning of the middleman making most of the profit in the food production chain. As we changed from generalized farmers who grew crops in summer, cut timber in winter, kept a few chickens for eggs, and had a few colonies of bees for honey, farmers became industrialized with crops in the thousands of acres and typically only 3 different crops produced. The farmer became more efficient by selling his crops to the middleman, the price we pay for food went down as a percentage of income, and the middleman's cut of the pie went up.

The strong dollar is directly contributing to the low price of honey here in the U.S. Canada's dollar is down 30% vs 5 years ago. Argentina is down nearly 60%. This means selling honey into the U.S. market is hugely profitable. Expect more of it as long as the dollar is strong. Just ask Ian about the prospect of selling his honey crop this year with the currency exchange so heavily in his favor.

As for retail honey at $10/pound, no way on earth most consumers will pay those prices when competing products are on the market at $2/pound. I've been selling honey at $15/quart (3 pounds/quart) for the last 2 years. I think the local market will support that price, but not any higher.


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## johno

Funny thing about this free market system, how come we don't pay the world price for sugar? Free market or cronyism. It looks to me that the honey suppliers are not greasing the correct palms in Worshington DC ( district of corruption).
Johno


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## RichardsonTX

That's good info about the price of honey, currency exchange rates, and honey import volumes being closely related. I think the USDA National Honey Report and climb in the value of the dollar against other currencies does substantiate those comments. Watching those types of reports could be good info for trying to predict the future price of honey. I noticed that honey is mainly consumed by commercial users. Are there any particular types of commercial users out there that consume the majority of the honey as a piece of the "commercial user" pie? 

I do think it would be beneficial to the honey industry to have a marketing cooperative like the Dairy Farmers of America and regional packing coops so that smaller beekeepers can improve their power as a supplier and generate additional income. Most people I talk to are aware of the health benefits of honey but almost all of them prefer "local" honey if they can find it and will pay a premium for it. Here's a packer who markets their honey by emphasizing the "locality" of it and I've known people to buy it on that premise since it's "local" and a little more expensive than the honey not promoted that way but less expensive than honey where "locality" is the main emphasis (would that boutique honey?). But I don't see on their website where they are promoting their "locality" for this region anymore but only northern California. http://naturenates.com/


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## beecavalier

Back in the good old days in Canada...when capitalism worked...it was common knowledge that wholesalers marked up what they paid producers by 20%...and retailers marked up what wholesalers charged by another 20%...that was standard. So you could have this theoretical scenario today if that was still the case:

Paid to producer...$1.80/lb
Wholesaler market price (add 20% or .36)...$2.16/lb
Retailer market price (add 20% or .43)........$2.59/lb (store shelf price)
% of retail cost (store shelf price) the producer receives...........69%

But instead today you have this as a more likely scenario:

Paid to producer...$1.80/lb
Wholesaler market price (add 100% or 1.80)...$3.60/lb
Retailer market price (add 100% or $3.60)........$7.20/lb (store shelf price)
% of retail cost (store shelf price) the producer receives...........25%

Another comment...when the stock market plunges, so do most commodities...supply and demand doesn't have much to do with it in global markets.

In Canada not only is oil down, so is beef, pork, coffee, minerals etc.. During this contracting process, commodity buyers sit tight...letting commodity prices level out...but more importantly, they let the currency values of countries they import from stabilize...if their own market commitments will allow them to. It's a game of playing one currency against another. Sometimes to the honey producer that can be a bonanza...sometimes not.


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## RichardsonTX

beecavalier said:


> Back in the good old days in Canada...when capitalism worked...it was common knowledge that wholesalers marked up what they paid producers by 20%...and retailers marked up what wholesalers charged by another 20%...that was standard. So you could have this theoretical scenario today if that was still the case:
> 
> Paid to producer...$1.80/lb
> Wholesaler market price (add 20% or .36)...$2.16/lb
> Retailer market price (add 20% or .43)........$2.59/lb (store shelf price)
> % of retail cost (store shelf price) the producer receives...........69%
> 
> But instead today you have this as a more likely scenario:
> 
> Paid to producer...$1.80/lb
> Wholesaler market price (add 100% or 1.80)...$3.60/lb
> Retailer market price (add 100% or $3.60)........$7.20/lb (store shelf price)
> % of retail cost (store shelf price) the producer receives...........25%
> 
> Another comment...when the stock market plunges, so do most commodities...supply and demand doesn't have much to do with it in global markets.
> 
> In Canada not only is oil down, so is beef, pork, coffee, minerals etc.. During this contracting process, commodity buyers sit tight...letting commodity prices level out...but more importantly, they let the currency values of countries they import from stabilize...if their own market commitments will allow them to. It's a game of playing one currency against another. Sometimes to the honey producer that can be a bonanza...sometimes not.


I agree and I think this is what has driven beekeepers to vertically integrate whether its through joining a coop or getting into the packing business themselves. One thing I've noticed in the story behind several private packing companies is that they started as beekeepers, ended up vertically integrating into the packing business, and then ended up dumping the beekeeping segment of the business to focus on the more profitable packing business. 

So far I'm seeing that honey has low import barriers into the United States so currency exchange rates are a primary pricing factor, there isn't a lot of product differentiation to the majority of the consumers so they buy primarily based on price, fixed costs for the packing business are probably low for most packers in relation to volume, which will are all reasons for packing companies to keep raw inventory low unless packers "play the market" which I don't see.


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## zhiv9

beecavalier said:


> Paid to producer...$1.80/lb
> Wholesaler market price (add 20% or .36)...$2.16/lb
> Retailer market price (add 20% or .43)........$2.59/lb (store shelf price)
> % of retail cost (store shelf price) the producer receives...........69%
> 
> But instead today you have this as a more likely scenario:
> 
> Paid to producer...$1.80/lb
> Wholesaler market price (add 100% or 1.80)...$3.60/lb
> Retailer market price (add 100% or $3.60)........$7.20/lb (store shelf price)
> % of retail cost (store shelf price) the producer receives...........25%


What you posted is right in a lot of ways, but you are missing shipping, container and labling, filtering and bottling costs here. As you get closer to retail in the supply chain, labour, container and other input costs become a larger and larger percentage of the price.


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## beecavalier

zhiv9 said:


> What you posted is right in a lot of ways, but you are missing shipping, container and labling, filtering and bottling costs here. As you get closer to retail in the supply chain, labour, container and other input costs become a larger and larger percentage of the price.


You're likely correct:

Does this reflect what you are trying to say?

Paid to producer...$1.80/lb
Wholesaler market price (add 75% or 1.35)...$3.15/lb
Retailer market price (add 135% or 4.25)........$7.35/lb (store shelf price)
% of retail cost (store shelf price) the producer receives........... approx. 25%


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## sqkcrk

Fusion_power said:


> I've been selling honey at $15/quart (3 pounds/quart) for the last 2 years. I think the local market will support that price, but not any higher.


That's the wholesale direct store delivery price around here. Here being the poorest county in NY besides the Bronx. Have you tried raising the price? Where do you sell your honey? Who buys it?

My honey, at the local IGA, sits next to the IGA brand and an Organic Brand from Brazil in origin. My honey costs more than either. And it moves well. What am I to think?


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## sqkcrk

johno said:


> Funny thing about this free market system, how come we don't pay the world price for sugar? Free market or cronyism. It looks to me that the honey suppliers are not greasing the correct palms in Worshington DC ( district of corruption).
> Johno


Would you like to be our Lobbyist? You'll have to do all of your lobbying on your own money. Go for it.


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## sqkcrk

RichardsonTX said:


> That's good info about the price of honey, currency exchange rates, and honey import volumes being closely related.
> 
> I do think it would be beneficial to the honey industry to have a marketing cooperative like the Dairy Farmers of America and regional packing coops so that smaller beekeepers can improve their power as a supplier and generate additional income.


If you can accurately predict what the price of honey will be next year, what would you do with that information?

Are you familiar with the Sioux Honey Cooperative? Based in Sioux City, Iowa? We have a marketing cooperative. We also have the National Honey Board. And do you know what happened with the NHB? Honey producers were supposed to send the NHB one cent for every pound of honey sold so the NHB could function to promote Honey Use. I haven't heard much about it lately. I think it turned into a Honey Packer Board and an Honey Import Board.

The NHB was supposed to promote US Honey. But they couldn't do that. They couldn't just promote US Produced Honey. They had to promote Honey. Because the Packers don't just buy US Honey. The NHB had to promote what the Packers wanted them to promote, not what the Honey Producers wanted them to promote. The NHB could not get US Honey Producers a better price for their honey.


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## deknow

Uhhh....the last big marketing campaign that I recall the NHB running was a multimillion dollar campaign to promote the bee movie (where boys do all the work amd harvest pollen using guns).


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## jim lyon

Yes, the producer funded National Honey Board got voted out by the producers themselves in a referendum where the votes were weighted by the number of pounds of honey you paid assessment on. If you made a deal with a packer at 1.00 per lb. you only received .99. It was replaced by the current packer sponsored honey board.


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## sqkcrk

I remember people arguing that the packer should pay the penny and not the producer. What's funny is that even though the penny came out of the dollar that the packer paid the producer, it was really the consumer that paid the penny. If the consumer didn't buy the honey there would be no money for the packer to pay the producer.

Stingy beekeepers cut off noses to save a penny.


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## RichardsonTX

Jim, do you think the National Honey Board is effective? 

When I look on the NHB's website it says, "The NHB, operating under U.S. Department of Agriculture oversight, is not a regulatory agency nor does it have powers of enforcement. The Board is prohibited from using funds to influence legislation or governmental action or policy." The 10 member board is appointed by the U.S. Secretary of Agriculture. I took a look at their annual report and they sure spend a large percentage of their budget on administrative expenses ($625,447, almost 14% of total expenses). 

I'm not knocking the NHB or supporting them, yet. I'm curious what people who've been familiar with them for a while think about them. Based on their shortage in revenue that they should be receiving from 150,000,000 lbs of honey produced in the United States, a lot of people who produce honey aren't supporting them. Again, I'm not saying they should or shouldn't. It's just an observation. And basing their revenue on production isn't really fair since honey production/domestic supply falls way short of honey demand in the United States so I can kind of see why they aren't getting much revenue. Their revenue comes from U.S. producers who are paying to promote honey in an industry where demand already exceeds U.S. supply and the benefit is going to packing companies, retailers, and helping foreign producers (as long as the value of the dollar is strong against other foreign currencies) who export their honey to the United States. They also can't use funds to influence legislation or governmental action or policy. I just don’t see where they are directly benefiting the producers who directly, and solely support them. 
Not that anyone claimed it was, but I don’t see the NHB as being an effective marketing cooperative that benefits honey producers similar to the way the Dairy Farmers of America accomplishes that goal for its farmer members. From what I can see now, it looks like a government agency without real powers that receives voluntary support from one group and mainly benefits another. 

Sqkcrk, I have made myself a little more familiar with the Sioux Honey Association in the last couple of days and they are impressive in my opinion. We need more of them. Those 300-400 beekeepers (out of the 125,000 beekeepers in the United States) that produce and package 25% of the U.S. total honey production, manage 25% of the hives in the United States, and own that cooperative are the front line of representation for the U.S. beekeeping industry. I suspect they are the only reason honey producers here in the United States, and the rest of the world, get as much for their honey as they do get. If that cooperative ever decided to branch out and utilize regional packing facilities, create a management system that would accommodate smaller producers, and have regional marketing campaigns promoting “local” honey, the rest of the honey packaging industry in the United States and industrial consumers, better watch out because they’ll have a Standard Oil of honey on their hands. U.S. and Canadian honey packaging companies are already importing, packaging, and exporting honey to other parts of the world and additional regional packaging capacity under the management of an organization like that would have an impact worldwide if they had the backing of smaller U.S. beekeepers by supporting them with their organization and used their excess packaging capacity to import, package, and export honey to the rest of the world. With the history, experience, and network connections that organization has, those members could become much more wealthy in a short time if they ever take that organization private and leveraged it.


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## sqkcrk

I thought that the NHB was supported by Honey Packers, not Honey Producers. The NHB is a promotion board, not a lobbying interest.

I believe that they have branched out. With an operation in FL and one in NC, if I am correct on what I have heard.

Richardson, you say if this then that. Why do you suppose that this and that haven't already happened? What's keeping the things you think of from happening? If it were profitable, don't you think the smart and experienced would have already done it?

I'm curious, what is your background? Do you have a degree in economics? You seem to have enough of an idea of and interest in the economics of things.


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## Rader Sidetrack

The National Honey Board is funded by "first handlers" (packers who buy from "producers") according to 
this Bee Culture article from August 2015:
http://www.beeculture.com/the-national-honey-board-what-they-do-for-you/

Here are some details of the NHB funding from that article ...


> In addition assessments of 1.25 cents per pound are imposed on first handlers (those who buy honey in quantity from producers and market it), and importers or importer-handlers. (The assessment is scheduled to increase to 1.5 cents/pound in 2016. Those in any category who produce or handle or import less than 250,000 pounds per year can apply for an exemption from the assessment.
> 
> http://www.beeculture.com/the-national-honey-board-what-they-do-for-you/



Note the increase in the assessment for 2016.

.


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## jim lyon

I thought the original idea was a good one even though it always made me wince to see that $400+ deduction for every load of honey we shipped. I also thought they had a cool idea by setting standards for honey content in certain products and allowing the products to display the NHB logo when they met those criteria that essentially called for honey to be the dominant sweetener instead of hfcs or sugar, but I'm not sure the consumer ever really identified with or looked for that logo when purchasing a jar of honey mustard or bar-b-que sauce or Honey Nut Cheerios. They also sponsored ads in some food magazines and offered help for industries trying to formulate new honey products. I believe imported honey was assessed as well but the argument I often heard against the producer sponsored board was that our assessments were paying to promote foreign honey and of course there were a few controversies on whether the money was spent wisely. In the big picture, though, honey is a pretty small commodity to generate much of a splash nationwide when compared to other generic campaigns like orange juice, dairy, beef or pork just to name a few. A .01 assessment on 400,000,000 lbs. only amounts to 4 million dollars which isn't going to go far in hiring qualified people and making any sort of national ad campaign.
I do think it's pretty important to have a national organization to answer questions and concerns about honey when they come up particularly when they relate to food safety. I guess the honey packers realized this when it appeared that the producers were ready to get out of the promotion business. Honey really has an enviable reputation among food products, lots of products like to promote that they contain honey but not many products actually contain much of it.


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## RichardsonTX

Jim, thanks for the info. It's good to be able to pick the brain of someone who is experienced and familiar with the situation. I know I've made a lot of talk on this thread but it's due to my curiosity in the industry and how it works beyond my little world of bees I sometimes get the time to study and wonder about. I'd also like to say I do appreciate your contributions to the NHB and others who are doing the same.

Radar, so those who "produce, handle, or import more than 250,000 pounds per year" are suppose to contribute their part of the assessment to the NHB? I'm asking that question to find out for sure. What I wrote earlier was based on info I seen in the thread and I may have interpreted it incorrectly. I do know from Jim's comments that he is paying an assessment, and that was as a producer I assume. 

Sqkcrk, I do have a degree in finance with emphasis in investments (there are different specialties in finance), but here I'm a beekeeper just feeding my thirst for knowledge about an industry I am curious about. I truly believe that experience is where the real substance is at and that experience is what I try to draw on from folks like yourself and Jim and a bunch of others in Beesource where I've relentlessly tried to pick their brains about different stuff. I just take the little things I learn about and then combine it with what I know and end up with a whole bunch of "this and that's" as you've said. As for the "this and that's", I suspect a bunch of those suppositions have been implemented already and in the supply chain from producer to consumer I think there are some areas where, like beecavalier has theorized, the pot is a little sweeter than in other areas. I'd like to learn a little about those "sweet" areas and maybe get a little of it for myself. And, contribute to the industry in some way or another while I am at it. 

Here's a publication I found that is interesting. It's old but what I've read of it has been informative. Michael Porter, one of the writers mentioned in the study, wrote a book titled _Competitive Strategy_ that I read back in the 90's that is a good read if you like that kind of stuff. 
http://www.minagri.gob.ar/site/desa...studios_mercado/honey_book_alberta_canada.pdf


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## sqkcrk

I appreciate being asked and that you listen to me. But, I think there are better places to find the answers to your questions. It would be nice if, after all of your research, you would write an article for ABJ or Bee Culture.


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## Roland

RichardsonTX - you have quite the glowing image of Sioux Bee in your mind. You might wish to do a little more research, I believe it was SeattlePI.com that caught a shipment of circumvented "Funny Honey" going to Sioux bee. Have you tasted their product? Us outsiders have been very thankful that they continue to burn their honey(or what ever it is they do) , making them no competition to good light northern Clover honey.

Around 15 years ago my father was on the NHB, possible with Suttonbee?. He did not say much, do to general frustration. He was often not overly impressed with what they where doing.

Crazy Roland


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## Rader Sidetrack

RichardsonTX said:


> Radar, so those who "produce, handle, or import more than 250,000 pounds per year" are suppose to contribute their part of the assessment to the NHB? I'm asking that question to find out for sure. What I wrote earlier was based on info I seen in the thread and I may have interpreted it incorrectly. I do know from Jim's comments that he is paying an assessment, and that was as a producer I assume.


I don't have any personal knowledge of NHB funding sources other than the Bee Culture article and comments in this thread. But I believe that you are misinterpreting _Jim Lyon_'s comment. As I understand it, he was referring to the _previous_ NHB funding setup, which has been changed. As a "producer", Jim does not currently pay a NHB assessment, as he is not a "packer".


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## jim lyon

That's correct Graham. The producer dosent have it directly deducted from his check though one can make a reasonable argument that it is an expense the first handler has to account for and probably reduces what he is willing to pay the producer......by a penny. Except now the producer has no voice in how it's spent.


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## RichardsonTX

sqkcrk said:


> I appreciate being asked and that you listen to me. But, I think there are better places to find the answers to your questions. It would be nice if, after all of your research, you would write an article for ABJ or Bee Culture.


Sqkcrk, I'll leave the article writing to the professionals.


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## Michael Palmer

So glad I have escaped the "Final Handler" classification, as I am sick and tired of being "Handled" finally. One year an auditor from the NHB showed up unannounced at my front door, and demanded access to my business records...or she was getting to cops to make me comply. She brought her own copy machine, copied my check registers and invoice books, and the NHB sent me a bill for $1500. Good riddance to them. They never helped me sell an ounce of honey, and did nothing for the price as they support packers importing cheap honey from overseas.


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## jim lyon

I was a first handler at the time and had to endure an audit as well. I did have forewarning however and it went reasonably well but it was an intrusion I wouldn't want to have to repeat. Seems like they found a small gap between assessments paid and product shipped that they wanted me to account for but I just ignored them and they eventually quit asking.


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## sqkcrk

Michael Palmer said:


> So glad I have escaped the "Final Handler" classification, as I am sick and tired of being "Handled" finally. One year an auditor from the NHB showed up unannounced at my front door, and demanded access to my business records...or she was getting to cops to make me comply. She brought her own copy machine, copied my check registers and invoice books, and the NHB sent me a bill for $1500. Good riddance to them. They never helped me sell an ounce of honey, and did nothing for the price as they support packers importing cheap honey from overseas.


Did she have a Warrant?


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## Ian

RichardsonTX said:


> Sioux Honey Association If that cooperative ever decided to branch out and utilize regional packing facilities, create a management system that would accommodate smaller producers, and have regional marketing campaigns promoting “local” honey, the rest of the honey packaging industry in the United States and industrial consumers, better watch out because they’ll have a Standard Oil of honey on their hands. U.S. and Canadian honey packaging companies are already importing, packaging, and exporting honey to other parts of the world and additional regional packaging capacity under the management of an organization like that would have an impact worldwide if they had the backing of smaller U.S. beekeepers by supporting them with their organization and used their excess packaging capacity to import, package, and export honey to the rest of the world. With the history, experience, and network connections that organization has, those members could become much more wealthy in a short time if they ever take that organization private and leveraged it.


Don't overstep the brilliance of marketing coops, the do have their place, many are supported and do extremely well, but the success depends on the people running the organization, just like private business. A good man at the helm makes all the difference. 

I am a member of the Manitoba Cooperative Honey Producers, BeeMaid is our marketing arm. BeeMaid sells 18m lbs of 100% Canadian honey all across Canada.


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## Keith Jarrett

MP's post #76 very well said.
I also got sued by the NHB, they retracted the suit, what a waste of resources.


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## RichardsonTX

Ian said:


> Don't overstep the brilliance of marketing coops, the do have their place, many are supported and do extremely well, but the success depends on the people running the organization, just like private business. A good man at the helm makes all the difference.
> 
> I am a member of the Manitoba Cooperative Honey Producers, BeeMaid is our marketing arm. BeeMaid sells 18m lbs of 100% Canadian honey all across Canada.


Ian, that is exactly my point. The value in the Sioux Honey Association is in the history, experience, and network connections that organization has. And by experience and network connections, I mean the collective experience of it's members, the member's network connections, and the connections of any of it's non-member staff. 

I've read a little about BeeMaid but not much. Does that cooperative have facilities shared by members for packaging their honey? I would assume they'd have to or either have a 3rd party that does that for them. 

One of the things I am looking for is historical financial data for the honey packaging industry and industry reports that give me an insight into how that industry functions. All of the companies under that classification that I have found so far are privately held and I haven't found many reports giving me a concise description of the industry. If I could find a publicly held company with that being their core business then I'd have access to that information. Do you know of any publicly held companies in the business? or even where I could find the information I am looking for?


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## JSL

Michael Palmer said:


> So glad I have escaped the "Final Handler" classification, as I am sick and tired of being "Handled" finally. One year an auditor from the NHB showed up unannounced at my front door, and demanded access to my business records...or she was getting to cops to make me comply. She brought her own copy machine, copied my check registers and invoice books, and the NHB sent me a bill for $1500. Good riddance to them. They never helped me sell an ounce of honey, and did nothing for the price as they support packers importing cheap honey from overseas.


Mike, I am not familiar with the finer points of their authority, but how can they force you to provide documentation without a signed court order?


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## Michael Palmer

They can't, but she would have gotten one I assumed. She threatened tom call the State Police. The program was an act of congress, and she had the legal authority. 

I tried to show her that the $1500 I paid each year was 10% of my profit. I told her I heard that Congress was going to start a National Secretary Promotion Board, to increase the number of secretaries available and get them a pay increase. It was going to cost her 10% of her net wages, but not to worry, her pay would go up, too. Should have heard her squeal. Weeeeee, weeeee, weeeee, all the way home.


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## Acebird

jim lyon said:


> The producer dosent have it directly deducted from his check though one can make a reasonable argument that it is an expense the first handler has to account for and probably reduces what he is willing to pay the producer......by a penny.


How does it work? Can the producer hold out for a better offer from another first handler?


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## JSL

Michael Palmer said:


> I tried to show her that the $1500 I paid each year was 10% of my profit. I told her I heard that Congress was going to start a National Secretary Promotion Board, to increase the number of secretaries available and get them a pay increase. It was going to cost her 10% of her net wages, but not to worry, her pay would go up, too. Should have heard her squeal. Weeeeee, weeeee, weeeee, all the way home.


I think most programs are established with good intentions, but sometimes not much forethought as to how it will affect end users.


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## johno

Anybody got any beekeeping buddies in Slovenia? Their beekeepers association has premises in different places in Slovenia where local producers can bring in their bulk honey and have it bottled and labeled in supplied containers marked "Product of Slovenia" and it can then be marketed in the EU. they also sample the honey test it and keep the sample in the event of any claim of impure or contaminated honey. They also have automatic foundation making machines where the beekeeper can bring in his wax and have foundation made at a small cost per sheet. there is also a small cost on the bottling process. But it is run by the beekeepers association. They also have places for the local clubs to hold their meetings. Anyone that went to the Apimondia in Slovenia would have been to the Slovenian Beekeepers headquarters. Bearing in mind only about 2 million people in Slovenia.
Johno


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## Ian

RichardsonTX said:


> Ian, that is exactly my point. The value in the Sioux Honey Association is in the history, experience, and network connections that organization has. And by experience and network connections, I mean the collective experience of it's members, the member's network connections, and the connections of any of it's non-member staff.
> 
> I've read a little about BeeMaid but not much. Does that cooperative have facilities shared by members for packaging their honey? I would assume they'd have to or either have a 3rd party that does that for them.
> 
> One of the things I am looking for is historical financial data for the honey packaging industry and industry reports that give me an insight into how that industry functions. All of the companies under that classification that I have found so far are privately held and I haven't found many reports giving me a concise description of the industry. If I could find a publicly held company with that being their core business then I'd have access to that information. Do you know of any publicly held companies in the business? or even where I could find the information I am looking for?


BeeMaid owns its own packing facilities, in turn held by the membership. 

Like I said don't overstep all that fluff that usually accompanies coops... It's the caliber of managment which retains sales. Connections only get you as far as having the ability to execute on them, in this business those sales can be lost with a blink on an eye. I stay away from all that co-op fluff and press board on decent returns and continual member support. Hugs and kisses can come after my cheque is in the back


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## Constance

Sorry Johno,

the slovenian beekeeper assoc. really tries to push things hard. 
The bottled honey selling thing didn't go well so far. 
Thus, they are heading to holiday programs for beekeepers now. Started marketing their travels at the German professional beekeeper symposium 2014 or so.

Anyway, Slovenia is small and the honey is pricy. Europe imports large amounts of China honey. Romania saw a huge increase in hive counts throughout the past 10 years and is selling high quality monofloral EU honey well below the $ 1.75/lb to european packers.

Michael


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## BernhardHeuvel

We should turn the tables and send our quality honey to China. For example I had a request from China for bulk "organic pollen". Maybe they value the relatively pesticide and sugar free honey, too.


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## Fusion_power

> Romania saw a huge increase in hive counts throughout the past 10 years and is selling high quality monofloral EU honey well below the $ 1.75/lb to european packers.


Romanian beekeepers are struggling to make a living. https://www.reddit.com/r/Beekeeping/comments/40bggq/


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## beecavalier

As I've mentioned before, agricultural commodities traded internationally...including honey...are at the whim fluctuating currencies...distance from the "land of the producer" to the "land of the final market" is of no consequence as stated in the comment below regarding transportation efficiencies. Although this article is about wheat, it applies to most agricultural products. Producers are bound by international trade agreements...trade dispute mechanisms in place are slow to react and are backlogged...i.e. N America.


Today
Canada aims to leapfrog U.S. in global wheat trade
4 hours ago by Thomson Reuters
Companies Mentioned: BG
By Rod Nickel and Karl Plume
WINNIPEG, Manitoba/CHICAGO, Jan 26 (Reuters) - Canada is aiming to supplant the United States as the Western Hemisphere's dominant wheat exporter, as its invigorated grain-exporting sector cashes in on weakening currency and cheap freight rates.
Canada overtook the United States in 2014/15 in wheat export volumes for the first time, exporting 24.1 million tonnes. It is forecast to fall short of eclipsing U.S. shippers in 2015/16, with both countries trailing top exporter Russia.
A once large gap is steadily narrowing, however, with U.S. wheat exports forecast this year at a 44-year low, and Canadian shipments up nearly 30 percent during the past decade.
Favorable dollar exchange currently allows Canadian exporters such as Richardson International, Glencore-owned Viterra Inc and Cargill Ltd, to undercut U.S. prices in some markets, traders say. Record-low ocean freight rates have also extended Canada's reach.
"I do think we will see the current trends in both countries continue, which would result in Canada being the leading exporter more years than not," said Cam Dahl, president of industry group Cereals Canada.
The United States also faces stiffer competition from Argentina, whose wheat prices tumbled last month after the country devalued its peso and scrapped export taxes.
As currencies weaken against the greenback, some buyers are turning to Canada and other suppliers first, and the United States only if necessary, said Rhyl Doyle, director of export trading at Canadian grain handler Paterson Grain.
"They are gradually becoming the emergency storehouse," Doyle said.
Mexico, Peru and some Caribbean countries have shifted purchases to favor more lower-quality wheat from the Black Sea region for blending with high-quality Canadian wheat, resulting in cheaper supply than U.S. hard red winter wheat to produce bread, Doyle said.
But export-focused industry group U.S. Wheat Associates, doubts Canada will consistently out-ship the United States, and says a build-up of Canadian stocks may be behind last year's anomaly.
"Overall, they are not going to exceed us as a wheat exporter," said Alan Tracy, U.S. Wheat Associates president, adding that the U.S. system is more efficient.
Recent investments by Canadian grain handlers aim to change that. Grain handler G3 Global Grain Group is planning a new grain terminal at Port Metro Vancouver, while Cargill, Richardson and Viterra are upgrading port facilities there to ship more grains and oilseeds to Asia.


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## capitalbeesupply

sqkcrk said:


> Just to keep things within the raw foods category, what's the difference between shelf price for Rice and what the producer was paid for it? What about Apples? Or Oranges? Pick any food that someone produces and someone else sells whole and tell me what the difference should be. Maple syrup may be a better example.
> 
> Take it a step further, bread or cereal. The difference between what the grain farmer was paid and what the Grocer sells it for.
> 
> Milk. Dairy Farmers hang on by the skin of their teeth.
> 
> If there is logical rhyme or reason, please let me know.


Nope, no rhyme or reason to any of it...well almost none. I was born and grew up in a large scale production grain farming and hog farming family which at one time operated over 11,000 acres of farmland and raised thousands of head of hogs each year. Whenever we placed concrete for a building or slab or etc. we wrote the date and the price of corn and hogs in the concrete. I walk around and look at those slabs today and often scratch my head as to how my parents managed things and figured it out (my dad's education ended at 8th grade, my mom finished high school). Today I walked over a slab placed 38 years ago. Then we thought $1.25 bushel corn was incredibly expensive and $0.65/lb hogs was an excellent selling price as some years they were $0.29/lb. A few years ago corn topped over $7.50 and hogs were $0.61, today corn is $3.70, hogs are $0.45....its the nature of a global ag commodity market and whether its cattle, corn, hogs or honey its all similar. Some years it is feast, some its famine and what separates the "men from the boys" is who can survive and thrive business wise through the famine years. It took me a lot of years to understand how to keep this roller coaster car on its tracks despite seeing and having it drilled into me everyday and having the successes and failures of other farms pointed out......but I don't think I will never fully understand the volatility of the commodity market.....


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## beecavalier

capitalbeesupply said:


> Some years it is feast, some its famine and what separates the "men from the boys" is who can survive and thrive business wise through the famine years.


Great story capitalbeesupply...you must have been incredibly adaptable.

In the time span of 20-30 years, agricultural producer inter-generational wealth has..for the majority... evaporated. To weather your "famine years", the required deep pockets are questionably absent. Producers who should have been financially secure often depend on huge operating loans...even in good times...a precarious situation. How the honey industry could evolve in a country...the USA... (where 2/3 of the honey consumed is imported and domestic producers still have difficulty moving their crops) isn't an aberration...it's an ongoing reality of global trade.


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## Acebird

beecavalier said:


> Great story capitalbeesupply...you must have been incredibly adaptable.
> the USA... (where 2/3 of the honey consumed is imported and domestic producers still have difficulty moving their crops) isn't an aberration...it's an ongoing reality of global trade.


We use to produce everything that we consumed and exported the rest. Now we import practically everything we consume and barely produce anything. The economy booms but so does the deficit. It would not surprise me if honey production in the US followed the historic past of all agriculture in the future.


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## beecavalier

I can't believe how both our governments are pushing the TPP. So now we will have more countries with unstable currencies to compete with...never mind the fact that some of those countries can squeeze in an an extra crop per season.

25 years ago I was a proponent of NAFTA...at that time I was exporting honey and bee pollen to California and Washington state. I was promised more access to US markets, but most importantly, free trade was to exist. Phyto sanitary export certificates and all the inspection requirements were to be phased out...basically we were to merge with eventually no border restrictions. I was pretty excited about those prospects...what a buffoon I was.


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## RichardsonTX

beecavalier said:


> I can't believe how both our governments are pushing the TPP. So now we will have more countries with unstable currencies to compete with...never mind the fact that some of those countries can squeeze in an an extra crop per season.
> 
> 25 years ago I was a proponent of NAFTA...at that time I was exporting honey and bee pollen to California and Washington state. I was promised more access to US markets, but most importantly, free trade was to exist. Phyto sanitary export certificates and all the inspection requirements were to be phased out...basically we were to merge with eventually no border restrictions. I was pretty excited about those prospects...what a buffoon I was.


I heard that the TPP was going to reduce all duties on honey being imported into the United States and with Canada currently growing in production capacity with the U.S. being its largest customer for honey, wouldn't that actually benefit Canada?


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## beecavalier

RichardsonTX said:


> I heard that the TPP was going to reduce all duties on honey being imported into the United States and with Canada currently growing in production capacity with the U.S. being its largest customer for honey, wouldn't that actually benefit Canada?


I would be surprised if there are any tariffs in place on Canadian honey entering the US...I never used to pay any in the past...they are usually negotiated out in these trade agreements... i.e. phased out over 10 or 20 years if they become contentious.

Couldn't say if Canada's honey production capacity is growing...sounds a bit odd.

Canadian honey producers are able to export to the US more readily because of our devalued currency.

But I have heard recently that our oil production shipped to the US has climbed to 3.5 million barrels/day.


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## RichardsonTX

beecavalier said:


> I would be surprised if there are any tariffs in place on Canadian honey entering the US...I never used to pay any in the past...they are usually negotiated out in these trade agreements... i.e. phased out over 10 or 20 years if they become contentious.
> 
> Couldn't say if Canada's honey production capacity is growing...sounds a bit odd.
> 
> Canadian honey producers are able to export to the US more readily because of our devalued currency.
> 
> But I have heard recently that our oil production shipped to the US has climbed to 3.5 million barrels/day.


Well, I'd bet you are right and I am wrong about the honey since I haven't really followed the matter very much at all. I bet someone on here knows for sure though. Hopefully they'll clarify the matter.


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## popejohnpaul2

beecavalier said:


> I would be surprised if there are any tariffs in place on Canadian honey entering the US...I never used to pay any in the past...


I've always been under the impression that tariffs or duties were imposed on the buyer of whatever is being imported (ie a US packer would have to pay duties on any honey imported from Canada assuming a duty was in place).


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## popejohnpaul2

Below is a link to website listing the various duty/tariff rates for bulk honey

http://www.dutycalculator.com/hs-co.../040900/honey/0409.00.0010/0409.00.0000/5660/

I am not very familiar with the website and do not see a date for when it was last updated, so take the information with a grain to salt.


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## popejohnpaul2

RichardsonTX said:


> I heard that the TPP was going to reduce all duties on honey being imported into the United States


Below is the link to the current tariff schedule of the US for the countries included in the TPP. All Honey tariffs except for those from Japan would be eliminated in year one of the agreement.

https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/TPP-Final-Text-US-Tariff-Elimination-Schedule.pdf 

The link below is an excel file from the US Census showing US honey imports by source country from 2006-2014. According to the data, Vietnam is the top exporter. It looks like Vietnam has a small tariff on honey currently, which would be reduced to 0% by the TPP. On the flip side, honey from the US wouldn't be assessed a tariff, but with our strong dollar I would doubt we do much exporting at all.

http://www.ers.usda.gov/datafiles/S...es/US_Honey_Production_and_Trade_/TABLE48.XLS


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## irwin harlton

http://issuu.com/irwinharlton/docs/fraud_suspicion__spanish_honey

Can't wait till we have TTP passed, than China won't have to ship its honey to Europe, Spain, Ukraine,etc


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## justin

if you look at the amount of honey vietnam and india export, and then look at the smaller amount they produce....you realize china doesn't have to go through europe to export.


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## Ian

irwin harlton said:


> http://issuu.com/irwinharlton/docs/fraud_suspicion__spanish_honey
> 
> Can't wait till we have TTP passed, than China won't have to ship its honey to Europe, Spain, Ukraine,etc


Has China signed on??


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## wildbranch2007

Ian said:


> Has China signed on??


not last I heard.


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## zhiv9

Ian said:


> Has China signed on??


No, but Vietnam has. Lower shipping costs and probably less red tape.


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