# No more mediums for me...



## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

So, I decided to experiment last summer and run one hive with only mediums just to see how I like it....well, I don't.

They did fine through the winter but something has happened to the queen. No brood or eggs and an angry bunch of ladies to boot. 

So what do I do? It's not like I can take a frame of eggs from another box and place in there...

So I converted the hive back to a full brood chamber with some frames that I had kept in the freezer over the winter, one frame of sealed brood and one frame of new eggs. I placed one medium super with honey on top of this.

Now I'm hoping they will make a new queen!!

Lesson in this for me: Either have numerous hives that you are running all mediums or none. One just won't cut it.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

So this really isn't about mediums, it's about having a large enough test group to handle all of the issues that arise in a year, correct?

Adam


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## NCSUbeeKEEPER (Feb 28, 2011)

I too fail to see the advantage of using mediums


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## mmclean (Sep 13, 2010)

I went with mediums because I didn't want to be lifting 90+ lbs. supers filled with honey.

I do hope that they will be filled with honey.


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## honeydreams (Aug 10, 2009)

@mmclean, are you using deeps for supers?


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## mmclean (Sep 13, 2010)

Setting up all mediums as per Michael Bush. Waiting on bees. We'll see how it goes.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

I see lots of advantages, I am just not ready to give it a try and there are some disadvantages as well, for instance 10 more frames to handle during a full inspection.

P.S. Honeydreams, you have the best sig!!


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I like mediums but still have a smattering of deeps and they're usually for:

- Initial expansion out of a deep nuc
- Covering 1 gallon paint cans that I use for feeding
- Emergency overflow if I run out of boxes

There's always an advantage if I have more than one hive going at a time but equipment struggles tend to be minimized by standardizing on certain equipment. 

I definitely do NOT like lifting deeps filled with honey although I'm always amazed by how much honey they can hold!


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

Oh I can see how using all mediums has its advantages for sure. For me, though, the problem actually was not running enough mediums at the same. And the next factor...I just don't have the $$$ to switch over. I'll stick with what I have....until I throw my back out really bad. 

How many mediums can you get in a wheelchair?


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## paintingpreacher (Jul 29, 2006)

Don't talk about throwing your back out... I have been there, done that,, I now have several hives that are all shallows,, They are lighter than mediums...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I have a number of pallets on which I run a deep and a medium. During the summer, the medium is on the top and an excluder is used between the medium and the honey supers. This time of year I rotate the supers, so the medium is on the bottom and the deep above where deep frames of brood are available for splits and nucs.


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## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

I use deeps for brood boxes. Some have more pollen and bees than honey. When a box is totally full of honey I just take a few frames out before moving it. Never have seen the issue with weight. 

Cost of frames, boxes ect for mediums is about the same as deeps without the added benefit of the extra room. From what I've been reading seems people go to all mediums so they have uniform equipment and ya, to cut down on the weight.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Makes sense to me that if one has trouble picking up a deep, of brood or honey, then switching to all mediums is the right way to go, for that person. If that's the case, then I don't know why someone wouldn't. 

Most of my honey supers are shallows, because I started out thinking that in the future I might not want to, or be as able to, pick up a medium or deep full of honey. Or, maybe, someone, like my wife, would be of help at harvest time and she has less trouble w/ a shallow super.

One thing I have noticed about keeping bees is that if you manage your bees and use equipment to suit yourself, the bees don't care and will still do what they do and make you a crop of honey. Within reason of course.

I guess what I am saying is, keep bees your own way. Listen to what others say and watch what trhey do and then make it your own. Your way is the right way, for you.


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> I guess what I am saying is, keep bees your own way. Listen to what others say and watch what trhey do and then make it your own. Your way is the right way, for you.


Good Advice.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

What equipment you use in your operation is preferential. It is your choice as SQK has pointed out. While many commercial operations use only mediums for uniformity and interchangability, bees do better on a larger comb. No breaks in the laying pattern on a larger comb. Since I use deeps and mediums and it is too late for me to change. I wish I had discovered the 7 5/8 super years ago. It is the super between the deep and the medium. It would be ideal for honey and brood.TK


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Wait a minute TK. How tall are your mediums? Mine are 6 5/8". My shallows are 5 11/16". The deeps are 9" something(7/8?),(11/16?).


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## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

So what your really saying is that the loss of your queen is unrelated to the size of the box the hive was in so the hive box is to blame.

You have just layed the foundation to decide all problems are caused by whatever you want and you will never have to waist time finding out what the real problem is.

Great! You will be a happy beekeeper!


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## theriverhawk (Jun 5, 2009)

No jrbee. No need to get critical here and try to make me look foolish...the size of the box had nothing to do with the loss of the queen and I'm not blaming the box. What I decided was that I either had start running lots of all medium hives or just stick with what I have. As I stood there, I was thinking "well, I don't have any other medium frames with eggs that I can place in this hive. What the heck am I gonna do?" If the queen had not died, I would have been happy to keep this medium box going. In this case, and based on the mistake of only one medium hive, I had to revert that hive back to the traditional full box if I am going to save this hive. 

Couple of reasons why I'm sticking with full brood chambers:
1. $$$--I just don't have the money to invest in all mediums. I've got other boxes that are "payed for".
2. I found that I didn't like having to pull 27 frames to check brood pattern, stores, swarm cells, find the queen, etc...
3. I should have tried it with 3 or more hives so that I could exchange frames when needed. Just didn't think about this until it was too late. This was my fault.

I do think the idea of all mediums is a good one. Just not for me right now. I applaud those that have made the switch, though!


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Getting back to your original problem with not having a queen and no other mediums to steal a frame of brood from, there is something you could have done. You could have taken a deep frame with some eggs in it from another hive, making sure the queen is not on the frame, then shake or brush the bees back into the hive that the deep frame came from. Then take and cut out the comb to fit an empty medium frame (hopefully you have one available) and either tie it or rubber band it into the medium frame. Now you have a comb of eggs for them to raise a queen from. Using all one size brood box is convenient so everything is interchangeable, but even with different sizes there are always ways to solve problems. By the way I also use all mediums for brood and honey, but there have been times when I wished I had a couple deeps around. Hope this helps. John


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

Like Mark said, it's a choice! I now use ALL meds for brood and shallows for supers. It has worked well for me in the Southern climate for cooling reasons, etc. Three meds equal a brood chamber. When we were in NY, we used deeps for climate reasons. I had thought the bees survived better on deeps in cold climates, but Michael B blew that theory.

So its a choice we like, since all hardware is interchangable. I will look at Ted's operation and see if I can gleen from his experience and background. As we are not real interested in nuc or package production, just honey production.

Sorry you lost your queen, but they will make another. If it happens again, pm me and I will give you some med brood to help out. 

Kind regards


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

That's still way too much work. No cutting required. Simply remove one medium frame from one box and another medium frame that's in the same position from either the box above or below and set the deep frame in. The bees may build comb below the bottom bar to fill the void, but so what. One a queen is raised, remove the deep frame.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

I'm with TheRiverhawk--can't afford to make the change. Besides, my bee shed is just loaded with woodenware and I would have no place to store any more! I did learn one easy trick. When the girls fill a deep with honey, I simply have an empty deep alongside that I can transfer 5 frames to, then I can lift the half-weight box with no problem. When it's a deep box filled with brood, I still have no problem lifting it, despite the fact that I'm an old woman!


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Barry, that's a good idea also, although I don't think either way is too much work to get yourself a new queen. John


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

I'm in mostly all 8-frame mediums. Had to get a couple of deeps because I bought a couple of nucs - 1 good reason to have a few deeps. I will also use deeps to cover my feeding pails. I am female and short to boot. Inches matter. Glad to have the mediums standardized so I can switch out equip as needed and save in the muscle department. 

Barry, great idea. Way to think inside the box! Ingenuity always amazes me.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I dont get the back problem rational when deciding between deep and medium boxes. 

I have had back problems before and have never thought that if I lift a 70 pound deep box I will hurt my back, but if I lift a 50 pound medium box my back will be ok. If my back is going to go out my back is going to go out. Plus or minus 20 pounds aint going to make a difference. 

I run all mediums just for the consistancy of the equipment.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael convinced me to change to mediums (he probably doesn't know that). But in order to avoid this problem that the original poster has brought up I made a spacer that is half the height of a medium. So if a problem like this should occur I can place the spacer under a medium and still use deep frames from another hive.


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

Seymore,

You make a point most folks don't think about when using Meds. There are very few producers of med nucs! So if you are just starting out or trying to expand your #'s, you do a bunch of splits and raise your own stock. Yes, packages are still an option.

This is a HUGE untapped market ready for someone to jump on. I tried to get a large producer to go this way, but they could not , based on their cost of equipment vs demand for orders in their region. 

Maybe I am trying to talk myself into something I really don't want to do. I am into production, but can see some potential with new beeks who have an interest in staying at the hobby stage.

Kind regards


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Stonefly7 said:


> Seymore,
> 
> but can see some potential with new beeks who have an interest in staying at the hobby stage.
> 
> Kind regards


As a new beek you usually buy a beginners kit that will have two deeps in the kit. This is another reason why I made a half medium box so you can get nucs from a supplier that only uses deep frames. Once the hive is established you can work the deep box out of the hive by running it up to the top so it ends up with honey and not brood.

If you try to go into business selling medium nucs will your equipment costs go up? You can't pass that along because you will be competing with established companies that don't have the increase cost.


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

AceBird,

Valid point which I hope some folks picked up on. That's an excellent idea. Having never ordered a "Beginners Kit" from a supplier, that's a valid point also. The folks who come to me for mentoring or with start up questions, I try to show them why I choose meds and have them think about it when they order equipment. 

Everything with the exception of the frames can be made easily with a table saw and minimal skill sets. If they don't have either, then they shop.

Thanks for the neat tip. 

Kind regards


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Everything with the exception of the frames can be made easily with a table saw and minimal skill sets.


Actually I made my medium boxes with all butt joints and corner posts so if you have the right size lumber you can make it with a skill saw or hand saw. Can you post pics on this forum? I can show you some pictures.


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## arnaud (Aug 2, 2009)

The only beeks I know who only run mediums are people who don't want to lift heavy loads - a small female beek in SF, an older fellow - and I see nothing wrong with that.

Personally I like deeps - easier to rotate, easier to set up, easier to inspect.

To each his own.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Mark, they manufactor a 7 and 5/8s box. This is a size between mediums and deeps. I have a few of them. I wish I had discovered that size box years ago. I would have only ONE size peice of equipment. TED


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

That's what I suspected. Is it sometimes cvalled an Illinois Deep?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Mark, they manufactor a 7 and 5/8s box.


Wouldn't the frames and foundation be expensive because of the low volume and lack of competition?


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

We have a guy here that sells med nucs.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

arnaud said:


> The only beeks I know who only run mediums are people who don't want to lift heavy loads - a small female beek in SF, an older fellow - and I see nothing wrong with that.
> 
> Personally I like deeps - easier to rotate, easier to set up, easier to inspect.
> 
> To each his own.


A lot of fairly large commercial operations use mediums almost entirely for their honey supers. Full ones weigh 40 lbs., pull 500 of those off on a hot summer day and then tell me they are only for those not wanting to lift heavy loads.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I have always heard the 6 5/8 called an "Illinois", so maybe the 7 5/8 is called an Illinois deep. Does anybody out there have the answer for Mark?? TK


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Wouldn't the frames and foundation be expensive because of the low volume and lack of competition?


Sure they cost more than the shorter ones, but enuf are sold so it's not like you are paying deep prices for a medium. The manufacturers of equipment build what their customers want and keep prices competitive so they can stay in business, but also so users will buy what they sell.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> The manufacturers of equipment build what their customers want


Well sure they do. When I spoke of low volume I am referring to the Illinois (7-5/8) size. Low volume usually means higher costs no matter who is producing the goods.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I think we understand each other. It just seemed to me like you thought that the cost would be prohibitive. That's all.


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## baldwinbees (Mar 2, 2010)

all mediums for me...2med gives more room for brood than 1 deep...2frames on each side in brood area can be extracted...brood can be moved from 4th super up down to the bottom outside where you pulled the honey frames...no wiring foundation....no 'bowed' foundation[especially if using Kelley's new med frames]...1size fits ALL...for me its the way to go


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Short, female, did NOT buy beginner's kit. DID buy full hive, mediums only. Beek mistake #1 (if only I had been tracking these - what laughs!) - had to rush to get the deeps here to house my nucs. Managed, but not without a few heart palpitations!

In reading here on the forum, I have seen that as little as maybe 10 years ago, plastic frames like the PF100 weren't even available for mediums. Apparently going all mediums is new (guessing, 15+ yrs??) "in the scheme of things." So now we have increased knowledge of bee issues worldwide, increased interest in beekeeping, and with an all-medium approach to hives, more women are can eliminate the weight factor as a reason NOT to get into a hobby of this sort, so I would not be surprised to see an increased need for nucs in mediums in time. It will be interesting to track.


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## RickLR (Mar 5, 2011)

> _Two sentences pulled from an earlier post in this thread:_
> 
> I now use ALL meds for brood and shallows for supers
> .
> ...


I'm so new at this my first packages (2) of bees don't arrive for six more weeks, so pardon me if this is a stupid question (and, yeah, I know: there are no stupid questions, just stupid people who ask questions -  ).

How is having deeps for brood and mediums for supers less interchangeable than having mediums for brood and shallows for supers? I didn't think the frames for mediums and shallows would be interchangeable. Is that incorrect?

Rick


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Rick,
It sounds like the person you're quoting is undoing one of the primary reasons for using all one-size equipment, interchangeability. But, choices are individual, after all.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Seymore, 
Deep frames will fit in double mediums, with a little room to spare.

PF100 frames are deeps, PF120's are medium depth.

Going all-medium isn't really new, I was inspired to go that way after reading an article in "Gleanings in Bee Culture", back when I was about 15 y.o. (in 1970). I only recently began using some plastic foundation and one-piece plastic frame/foundation.

I work at producing a few dozen nucs each year, all of mine are 5-frame medium, and a combination of PF120's or foundationless.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Deep nucs into medium box: I've used a 3" shim under the medium box when I've had to put deep frames into a medium box. Rotate the deep frames out as the brood hatches out, trim any of the minimal comb built under the medium frames and pull the shim.

Mediums for small women and aged men: I don't think I fit in either of those catagories when I decided to use all mediums for the interchangability of equiment or for the unlikely event I turn into an aged man or small woman. However, when I've seen folks up here in the far north mixing a deep or two into the mix, I started adding a deep to some of the brood stacks. I do have some Carni hives and am thinking that their smaller winter clusters might be a good fit with three mediums here in Maine.

Wayne


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Joseph Clemens said:


> Seymore,
> PF100 frames are deeps, PF120's are medium depth.


My meaning was PLASTIC FRAMES - for mediums; sorry; not the actual model number. I think the medium size might be PF125. Whatever model number, plastic frames for mediums were not available long about 10 years or so ago - from what I was reading online.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

"Whatever style (hive) may be adopted, let it by all means be one with movable frames, and have but one sized frame in the apiary."--A.B. Mason, Mysteries of Bee-keeping explained


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## yamahawg (May 19, 2010)

I'm using 8 frame setup, and like the mediums. Although starting out last year had to get 2 8 frame deeps to make the nucs that were available locally work out. So other than 1 deep box, the rest are mediums on my hives. And they will hurt your back if you are in a hurry, and cleaning out a dead hive, and grab 2 mediums quickly to carry them off before the other hive starts robbing... don't ask me how I know...did it yesterday Lol...strained a muscle I think.


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## msapostol (Sep 6, 2008)

We started with mediums for a collected swarm; I'm also a small female. They are lighter to handle, but it was hard on these bees. We had to give them a deep because it didn't seem like they had enough room for the brood chamber.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

msapostol said:


> We started with mediums for a collected swarm; I'm also a small female. They are lighter to handle, but it was hard on these bees. We had to give them a deep because it didn't seem like they had enough room for the brood chamber.


I don't understand. If you added another medium the bees will determine how big the brood chamber will bee.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

In the North, one ten frame deep isn't enough for a brood chamber. Two ten frame deeps is kind of minimal. Three ten frame deeps is a little more than they need but they do ok. Four or five eight frame mediums seems to work perfectly. How does going to deeps resolve the fact that one medium box isn't enough when one deep box isn't enough either?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> In the North, one ten frame deep isn't enough for a brood chamber. Two ten frame deeps is kind of minimal.


Michael, just so I am clear on this you are speaking of the harvest season not the wintering over season, correct?


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Acebird said:


> Michael, just so I am clear on this you are speaking of the harvest season not the wintering over season, correct?


I assume that he is referring to just the brood chamber regardless of the season, but when saying that one deep isn't enough you can think "Winter".


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael, just so I am clear on this you are speaking of the harvest season not the wintering over season, correct? 

Wintering. Or the brood nest during the rest of the year. I'm saying a strong hive in the North can easily take advantage of that much room.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beehive



> The minimum size of the hive is dependent on outside air temperature and potential food sources in the winter months. The colder the winter, the larger the hive and food stores need to be. In the regions with severe winter weather, a basketball-shaped cluster of bees typically survives in a "double-deep" box. In temperate and equatorial regions, a winter cluster will survive in a single box or in a nuc (short for nucleus colony).


You know better than I Michael, but I didn’t dream up the double deep box on my own. I will say that Utica, and Syracuse NY have a lot of snow but the temperatures are somewhat milder than in other sections of the state because of the heavy cloud cover. At least you and Wikipedia are stating that bigger hives are necessary in northern regions and there are no negatives to adding supers of honey. Somewhere I got the idea that too much space is a problem. Apparently not.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Too much space, if created by leaving empty honey supers on overwinter, could be a problem. Too much honey seldom is. (Brood comb and honey stores are not really "space.")

Wayne


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Thanks Wayne, I will keep that in mind.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Somewhere I got the idea that too much space is a problem. Apparently not. 

Empty space is of no value and probably is a "problem" to some degree assuming it's just space and yet they have to guard it and lose heat to it. The idea is to send them into winter with enough honey to not only get through the winter, but enough to build up well in the spring. So if you have a large cluster and a lot of honey, three deeps is not a bad configuration and one that has been recommended by many northern beekeepers including A.I. Root, David Eyre ( www.beeworks.com ) and (he may correct me if I'm wrong) I think Michael Palmer. This has been described as a "food chamber" (A.I. Root) an "Unlimited Brood Nest" (David Eyre). Walt Wright has a larger configuration as well, but he only uses one deep with a shallow below (for pollen) and two or three shallows above (with checkerboarded honey in late winter).


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> So if you have a large cluster and a lot of honey, three deeps is not a bad configuration and one that has been recommended by many northern beekeepers


I hear you Michael but I am cautious on the term "northern beekeepers". Just twenty miles north of me is another world. Canada is a whole other leap from there. I have been told that a large colony can consume half their stores in the month of November and December and then there is three months more to go. So in the middle of winter you could have now this empty space and the worst is yet to come. And you can't do noten about it. This is why I am cautious.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

:scratch:

So being cautious means a smaller broodnest?

More is less?


:scratch:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

No, being cautious means I will be slow to adopt a different path until I understand what the risks are. If I drive around the local area and see most people are using three deeps to winter and not two deeps like I think they are then I would be more comfortable to change. I appreciate people telling me what they think I am doing wrong. I really do.


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## Stonefly7 (Nov 3, 2005)

What risk Ace? Are you running 300+ hives? Then I could see some caution necessary, and try a few test hives for results. Heck, try one and see what you get.
When running bees in the Onondaga Valley, I ran 4-5 meds of brood. It was a test bed in those days, cause almost everything else was deeps. That's what I started with because our mentor over to the West, Dr. Taylor said to run deeps.

I think meds are a viable option in your location if you chose to give it a go. Quite a few folks have chimed in from around the country with their like or dislike of using medium bxs for brood chambers.

Give it a go, and let us know your results, unless I missed a post saying you had already did this. I think Michael said "Its a personel choice", or something to that point. 

Kind regards


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> unless I missed a post saying you had already did this


You missed a post saying I am committed to trying all mediums but I have to get past one hive. All my eggs are in one basket.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would certainly remove empty space not being used by the cluster or filled with honey going into winter. However, not giving them as much honey is not the solution. Honey is what they need. Space below them is irrelevant. Running out of food is VERY relevant. But also their impetus to raise a lot of brood in the spring is enough stores that they don't have to worry about running out of food.


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## bfriendly (Jun 14, 2009)

7 5/8" boxes are sometimes called "western deep" as the primary supplier in the past I think was western bee in MT. But many people ALSO call 6 5/8" westerns, so to be more clear, you can use the other term, "3/4 deeps"

I have met a few guys who realy like them for honey supers. I like the boxes, because I can put a flat bottom on them (no rim) and use them as a (divided) nuc with 6 1/4 frames!

Personally, I like 6 5/8, but wonder if my operation could be most "efficient" running single deeps for brood.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> But also their impetus to raise a lot of brood in the spring is enough stores that they don't have to worry about running out of food.


I am sorry Michael, I don't understand this sentence. I have read it several times and I can't figure out what that means.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I am sorry Michael, I don't understand this sentence. I have read it several times and I can't figure out what that means.


It takes honey and pollen [stores or resources] to raise brood. The bees don't want to use all their stores to raise more brood only to later starve for lack of resources before pollen or nectar production begins. Once the days get longer the bees will begin raising brood, thereby using stores, before the nectar flow starts or the pollen flow starts, only if the colony has adequate stores on hand to last to the coming pollen and nectar flows. Having adequate stores give the bees the impetus [anything that stimulates activity; driving force or motive; incentive; impulse.] to get an early start.

Kindest Regards
Danny


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Thank you Danny I understand now.

In an automated factory like a chicken factory you would have to provide everything that would be needed for the bees not necessarily in its natural form. So in the simplest form the bees need water, sugar, protein, and a way to make propolis. Is that correct?


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