# Bee Space at top or bottom?



## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

What is the benefit of putting the bee space at the top or bottom of the hive boxes?


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

My boxes have the frames almost even at the bottom & space at the top.
When I stack them beespace ends up top & bottom, because of the way they stack.
Not all manufacturers do it the same, so be carefull when mixing boxes from different companies.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

I just realized the answer to you're question might be so they don't glue the frames together.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I followed Brother Adam and on my imitation of his hives put no beespace on top, frames flush with the top of the box, beespace on the bottom. In this scenario the bottom of the upper box sits half on the top bar ends. The frames from box to box have a space, but a lot more propolis gets put around the top bar ends because of the box side sitting on them. Also, you have to have an inner cover or excluder on the top box, or you have no beespace for a cover to sit on over the frames. American spacing is better, maybe 1/4" on top and 1/8" +/- on the bottom.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

See I've always made mine with bee space at the bottom of the box too. I always figured that would keep frames of unused and stored boxes from touching the ground which would make it easier for pests to access them, as well as helping to keep them cleaner. But I wasn't sure if maybe there were some kind of benefit to putting the bee space at the top because I know that's a popular way to do it too.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I read the question very carefully -- ha ha, you're not gonna trick me. Bee space needs to be both top and bottom, and everywhere else in the hive where you don't want the bees cementing it with propolis or filling it with comb.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

Joseph Clemens said:


> I read the question very carefully -- ha ha, you're not gonna trick me. Bee space needs to be both top and bottom, and everywhere else in the hive where you don't want the bees cementing it with propolis or filling it with comb.


Thanks, but that's not really what I'm asking, I'm asking about when you build your boxes, do you dado the rail that the frame sits in at 3/8 inch deep, 1/2, 5/8, or 3/4? That changes where the bee space is located within the box when the box sits by itself (but keeps it both top and bottom when connected to multiple boxes, or to the inner/outer cover, etc). Then more specifically I'm asking if there's a benefit to doing it a particular way over one of the others. I've always built my boxes with a 3/8 inch deep rail for the frames to sit on so that the tops of the frames sit flush with the top of the box and the bee space is at the bottom of the box.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

SgtMaj said:


> when you build your boxes, do you dado the rail that the frame sits in at 3/8 inch deep, 1/2, 5/8, or 3/4?


5/8 unless you use metal frame rests. Then it's 3/4


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I like my frames to sit even with the tops of the supers. That leaves the static bee space between the frame bottoms and the bottoms of the supers or between the frame bottoms of the super that is above and the tops of the frames in the super below. My rabbet depth varies, but only because I sometimes use the metal frame rests that have the raised edge and sometimes I don't have any available when I'm making supers.


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

SgtMaj said:


> Thanks, but that's not really what I'm asking, I'm asking about when you build your boxes, do you dado the rail that the frame sits in at 3/8 inch deep, 1/2, 5/8, or 3/4? That changes where the bee space is located within the box when the box sits by itself (but keeps it both top and bottom when connected to multiple boxes, or to the inner/outer cover, etc). Then more specifically I'm asking if there's a benefit to doing it a particular way over one of the others. I've always built my boxes with a 3/8 inch deep rail for the frames to sit on so that the tops of the frames sit flush with the top of the box and the bee space is at the bottom of the box.


so when you place a lid on top of the box  the way you made your boxes :scratch: there is no bee space or any space :shhhh: is it hard to get the lid to set flat :shhhhr do you use a inercover to fix it - RDY-B


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## Radical Bee (Feb 25, 2009)

Here is a vote for beespace at the bottom. I have a very low profile entrance so i need a space the bees can use below the brood frames for the hanging of swarm cells. Otherwise they will hang them higher making it more difficult to find them just by tipping and peeking under the brood box.

What the beetles taught me was to also rim the innercover or the migatory top so there is enough space at the top of the hives for the bees to run the hive beetles out of their 'hiding' place.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

Joseph Clemens said:


> I like my frames to sit even with the tops of the supers. That leaves the static bee space between the frame bottoms and the bottoms of the supers or between the frame bottoms of the super that is above and the tops of the frames in the super below. My rabbet depth varies, but only because I sometimes use the metal frame rests that have the raised edge and sometimes I don't have any available when I'm making supers.


That's what I've been doing too, so far I can't see any justification for doing it any other way. By the way, do you like those metal frame rests? They look like they might make it easier to move or remove frames but I wasn't sure if the bees would just fill the space behind with propolis or if beetles would hide back there, etc.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Some hives, over time, do seem to put more propolis into everything, for me most don't put enough in the metal frame rests to cause difficulty. I sometimes forget about SHB, since they haven't arrived here yet (hope they never do), so I couldn't say how the SHB might behave in that regard.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

I would suggest to you that whether you leave the bee space at the top or the bottom of the stack should hinge on what kind of cover you use. If you use a inner/outer cover arragement then you need to leave the bee space at the bottom of the box since the rim of the inner cover will allow for bee space at the top of the stack. If you use migratory covers (which are essentially just flat pieces of wood) then you need to allow for bee space at the top of boxes.

since manufactures will tend to favor certain segments of the market over others it is no wonder one will have differenting rabbit depth from another.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I have used both and I prefer the top beespace. I have never seen a factory made box made in the U.S. that had a bottom beespace. All factory made boxes have had the rabbet cut so that the space above the frames is 1/4 in. and a 1/8 in. beespace below the bottom bar of the frame. When the boxes are stacked this gives the 3/8 in. beespace between the topbars and the bottom bars of the frames in the two boxes.

The Langstroth Deep inside dimensions are 9-19/32 deep, 14-11/16 wide and 18-5/16 inches long and use a 5/8 in. rabbet. All factory equipment made in the U.S. for use on a beehive is made with these measurements in mind. The only exception I have found is the wood bound excluders I have had were made to give proper beespace when used on the U.K. style bottom beespace. 

Each person's likes vary and if all of your equipment is the same then you have no problem. The problems start if you build or purchase a mix of styles. If you use nonstandard equipment and ever sell any to new beekeepers then you pass on the problems.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The advantage to bottom space is you could use a four by eight sheet of plywood for the bottom boards for14 eight frame hives with no modification necessary. 

But all the boxes I've seen are 1/4" at the top and 1/8" at the bottom.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

Thanks for the info.

I'm definately not going to be using standard equipment.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>5/8 unless you use metal frame rests. Then it's 3/4 . . .
To help confuse matters , there are two types of metal frames rests. One is simply metal bent 90 degrees forming an "L". This style fits a 5/8" notch. The other type is formed 90 degrees too, but has a 1/8” "hump" for the frames set on. This style is to be used in a 3/4" notch. Both will provide 3/8” beespace above frames (and boxes can be mixed w/o problems).

Then there are metal frame "spacers" that some also call "frame rest". Anyone confused?


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

You asked for advantages. I use top bee space because less bees spill out onto the box upper edge when separated. Some do, but less of them.


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