# Replenishment of starter/finisher box



## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Don't mind me, I'm just eavesdropping opcorn:


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

I'm not sure you will have the bee resources you want as a starter/ finisher. I used Randy Oliver's method of "Small Scale Queen Rearing" and it work well last year. Search for it under Scientific Beekeeping. Pretty straight forword setup.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

First of all, why are you using a closed system instead of an open system. If you use an open system, then you can make a bee bomb by adding more nurse bees and capped cells every 1-2 weeks. With this set up your forager bees will be bringing in more resources to feed the nurse bees there by increasing the feeding of the graft cells. Yes, I have used an open system by moving a starter/finisher hive in the position of a booming hive that has lots of foragers. You can continue to add more nurse bees and the foragers will continue to feed them. And increasing your cell size with well fed queens too. Rotate the grafted cells like you normally do. You will not lose any field bees when you put the hive in the position of a booming hive. Got that?


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## seapro220 (Mar 14, 2013)

I put about 3lbs of been in the 5frame nuc starter up whenever I made it up, which doesn't include the 2 frames of capped brood that will/should be coming out within the next week. This should be enough bees I think.

As far as why I'm using a closed instead of open system - it's probably due to the fact that I only want to have 1 box/system to accomplish what I want and not have 2 boxes or systems in place - 1 as a starter and the other as a finisher. By adding an extra frame of 2 every week then I should, theoretically be creating my 'bee bomb' with additional nurse bees to 'start and feed' my queen cells. I'll also be adding another frame of pollen whenever I add in the next round of grafts and constantly feeding them with sugar water so that the bees in there, as well as the newly hatched bees will have enough pollen to convert to royal jelly. 

why shouldn't this work - or what am I missing? As long as I keep my process down to about 3 weeks then the 'original bees' that were in there - have either ..

1. flown out whenever I peeked/added supplies to the nuc - found a new home on their own
2. never oriented to this location - so they will orient wherever I put the nuc at the end
3. the new bees haven't oriented anywhere 
4. the last of the bees that emerge can just be shaken/dumped either in front of another hive to combine naturally - or be left to completely build out this nuc ( minus the queen cells I've already moved) and continue on as 'usual'.

??


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Overall you are on the right track, but with one really critical flaw. If you wait until day 12 after grafting to move out the cells they will already have emerged into your cell builder.

Just keep in mind that you need the cell builder as strong as you can get it. Once it has plenty of foragers they will keep all available space full of pollen and syrup so partially emerged brood frames will also hold food reserves, and you can replace nearly fully emerged frames that are full of honey with new brood frames As often as possible.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

4. the last of the bees that emerge can just be shaken/dumped either in front of another hive to combine naturally - or be left to completely build out this nuc ( minus the queen cells I've already moved) and continue on as 'usual'.

#4) Why don't you turn this hive into a production hive by leaving the last of the 2 cells in there? Just graft for more than you need for this hive. Since they have so many bees already just keep everything as its. I remember that Lauri keep her last queen so that she doesn't has to do anything else. No need to shake any bees for the extra work.

You seem to have enough bees. My concern is not having enough feed for them. Your pollen frame is not enough with so many bees. They will consume close to
a pound of pollen a day if not more when nursing. The quality of the Rj deposited into the cells will suffer if they are not well feed. Even in my weaker 5 frames nuc set up 
they ate a lot too. So I put in a pound of patty for them on the hive bars. This will ensure that they have enough. And mine is in an open system set up. In a closed system nothing
is coming in, no nectar or pollen. I would advise to put in a patty in addition to the syrup. You'll be surprised of how much they eat in a day.
If the hive is in full sun they will be cooked for sure with so many bees. So make sure they have enough ventilation in the day time. Ohh, I use an open system where they continue to forage and only use 1 box for the starter and finisher. This still works that you don't have to worry about if the bees are flying out when you replenish the hive.


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

If the bees are closed up that long, how would they do a cleansing flight or is that impotent?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Btw, this method of queen rearing in a nuc - or one very similar has been in use for quite a while now. Nothing wrong with experimenting, but the kinks have pretty much been worked out.


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## seapro220 (Mar 14, 2013)

Ok. ok.. 

I'll make the change - or, have already done it I should correctly say. I moved the box this am and converted it into a 'finisher' box by moving all the frames from that box, into another one that had an exit hole -

I guess this might work better in the long run, as I plan to utilize this same process again next Friday whenever I move those capped cells into my nucs. I don't know how many more times I'll be able to test this year though due to the fact that if all the currently produced queen cells hatch and do well, and i have the same success the 2nd time - I won't have enough other additional 'support' product (frames, nectar, bees, etc) to continue raising queens for the rest of the year. I also like, due to our nectar flow, to stop raising queens by the middle of June which allows enough time for those I've already made up to develop and stock up for the winter. I still believe that this system might work as the bees and will be further testing this process again since the following is true - 

1. the starter box and bees are really only confined for about 2 weeks during the process (lots more confinement in the winter time due to weather)
2. most of my 'internal' resources (pollen/nectar and jar feeding syrup water) are replenished regularly
3. those bees lost due to my opening/replenishing items will either find a new home close by in the apiary - and the starter box is replenished by the additional frames of bees I've added.

After all, the whole thought process was for a 'small time' queen guy, wanting to make about 20 to 30 quality queens a year - to have to have multiple hives along with all the equipment needed to support this type of process? Isn't, or shouldn't the goal be in this whole process, to raise better quality production queens, known to survive and flourish in your areas? I've always reduced the # of queens produced - and not sold queens/nucs if I didn't think they were good queens anyway. Please don't smash me - I'm not knocking anybody out there !!


Anyway - In reviewing my queen calendar, based off a grafting date of 5/6 - then the cell's will be capped on Monday (5/10) and Friday (5/15) is the date I should be moving my cells into nucs. Sometimes I've had issues with the workers removing/tearing down what they consider 'excessive' cells after realizing they have too many and I loose some queen cells. (I could get a chicken-egg box and transfer over there - but again - more equipment and time, and would still have to worry about support brood, boxes, etc) Taking this into account, I'll be moving my queen cells (gingerly) into my set-up nucs on Wednesday or Thursday - which is a day or 2 earlier. I know I need to be careful as the queens are really fragile during this time but would rather move a bit earlier than have them tear down 1/3 of my cups. 

BeePro - as far as adding additional pollen patties to the mix - Good point and I'd already considered this process and plan to add a small pollen patty next Monday after I check on the 'capped' stage of the existing cups. The problem is that the pollen patties I've made up already have some HBH in them, and I didn't want to entice any robbing situation. I've also bee considering adding some pollen sub to my sugar water and think that might be a good substitute to the actual 'physical' patty. What do you think of this idea? 

Here's a couple of pics of a post 24hr process. I grafted 13, and counted 10 being actively worked yesterday pm - not too bad in this type of new environment and thanks for the comments so far. whenever the cell do get capped - I'll upload some pics then also.

AArg !!! Sorry - someday i'll figure out the upload process. Seems like i can select the file, thru basic upload - but there's no button to upload. same issue in IE 11 and firefox.
.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

What do you think of this idea? 

I think it is a bad idea because the syrup might turn bad if they don't consume it fast enough.
But if they do take it on time then you can continue with the feeding. If you are concern about robbing then
reduce the exit or put an entrance guard on. Yes, having a little exit hole will allow them to poop too. Need to 
realize that during the winter months in the cold they can hold but in the Spring time they need to go. Holding for
2 weeks or more might develop the disease if they are not allow to release.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

David L - Thanks for the link to your website. You've written a good, clear explanation of Joseph Clemen's method. That will be my late-season setup from now on, but I'll probably just pop in a Miller Method frame of swarm cells, just because its easy.


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## seapro220 (Mar 14, 2013)

I checked on the queen cells earlier, and still have 9 really nice cups - all averaging about 1.5" or slightly larger and a 'runt' which is only about 3/4 of an inch and will probably be culled out. I've always added 2 frames of brood, plus 1 pollen and 1 nectar/honey whenever I make up the nucs but might have to change this a bit. How many of you have had good success by adding only a single frame of brood - and perhaps a shake of bees to make up a 3-frame nuc? I believe that as long as I have enough bees to cover the brood, and help the queen whenever she comes out is all I should be concerned with at this point and once she's mated then I can add more supplemental brood if necessary. I had some issues with this last year due to them not growing much and having to combine them with other hives later. I guess this might have been due to the 'late' timing I did - but wanted to know how others do?

thanks.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

kilocharlie said:


> David L - Thanks for the link to your website. You've written a good, clear explanation of Joseph Clemen's method. That will be my late-season setup from now on, but I'll probably just pop in a Miller Method frame of swarm cells, just because its easy.


Thanks. I think that method would be worth doing even if all you did was pull out a frame with a cell on it every few days - you could still probably produce 10 or more queens in a season with one cell builder. Or if you want to scale it up just a little by grafting - or using the Miller method - and running 20 or so mating nucs you could produce $1000 worth of queens - still with just one cell builder. I'm working one right now with 19 mating nucs, and it's working out pretty good.


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