# Quilt Box?



## SunnyR2000 (May 9, 2012)

So in my quest to provide the best winter experience possible for my bees here in SW CO, I ran into the idea of a quilt box. Has anyone tried them? Good, bad, indifferent? They are used to suck up moisture in the hives during the winter.

I have moisture boards - good or bad idea? 

Talk to me, peeps!

On the winter thread, we get a lot of snow at times and very cold weather. Winters here last from October (we had a snow storm yesterday!) to mid-April. 

My plan for addressing moisture/ cold: 
* Moisture board above inner cover 
* Quilt box?
* No opening the deeps until Spring - keep propolis in order.
* Tar paper around hives
* Two entrances - upper and lower 
* Custom bottom boards to close up the SBB 
* Wall of straw on pallets a couple feet from the hives on wind exposure sides 
* pray and hope they make it

Anything else?

Thanks!


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I have not tried them since we have fairly mild winters here (my bees were bringing in dandelion pollen on Christmas Day last year), but a quilt box is a perfectly good idea for very cold areas.

Staple some screen to the bottom of a shallow super and fill it to the top with chopped leaves, fine bark mulch, planer shavings (not sawdust unless you can get sawmill, very coarse stuff) or any other similar porous organic material. No notch in the box, no hole in the next hive body, etc. Put the super on top of the hive with a telescoping cover on top. 

This gives great moisture absorption, no condensation, nice conditions inside the hive, and no howling wind inside on bitter cold nights. Heat rising from the cluster will slowly dry any accumulated moisture out of the "packing" and slow air movement will keep the bottom of it warm and dry. The combs on the sides of the hives will get cold enough to condense water vapor for the bees to use.

I would also wrap the hives to keep wind out, and face the entrance away from the prevailing winds.

Peter


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## PAHunter62 (Jan 26, 2011)

I have used them since I started. This will be my third winter coming up and I have not lost a hive over the winter months yet. I did have a NUC die off last winter late February, but it was formed late in the year and really was not strong enough going into winter.

I used this design for mine the first two winters - 2 hives first winter (that was the very warm winter), and 4 hives last winter.

http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php

This year, I have 17 hives going into winter (I expect some losses this year) and not enough time to build this style box. I'm going to use 2x6 and build a box that I will allow the bottom to be replaced. #8 hardware cloth in the winter, and 1/4 ply when I want to have a hive top feeder (like the fatbeeman design). I'll make the insides swappable to maximize the utility of them. I plan to fill the new boxes with cedar chips this year.

Whatever you decide, make sure you have a top vent to let the moisture escape. If you just have an inner cover over the cluster and not anything to absorb the moisture, make sure your hive tilts back to front, or front to back so the condensation will run down the front or back wall and not drip back onto the cluster.

Good Luck.


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## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

I have put a queen excluder on top of my double deep boxes, then added a super and filled it up half way with shavings, leave the super lid cracked a bit and it wicked moisture up great.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Ventillation and proper insulation practices is key to moisture problems. Although, most of the moisture will be consumed by the bees over the winter.
As of yet, I have never had an issue with moisture. I may be just lucky in that regard.


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## Pete O (Jul 13, 2013)

In viewing the many YouTube videos from the Russians on beekeeping, you will see that all they use are two layers of old carpeting or an old pillow above the frames. The hives are often close to falling apart and riddled with air leaks but they couldn't care less. The videos may be in Russian language but you will get the point when you see them push two feet of snow off of the hive, lift the pillow to check the hives. No winter feeding for them.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

About 1/2 my hives have quilt boxes made from either a shallow super filled with cedar chips and screened, or a top cover with integral vents and cedar chip quilt built in. The hives that do not have these get burlap stuffed under the cover above the frames and emergency feed. Works for me.

Instead of true quilt boxes I have switched to a vented quilt box with a permanently attached top cover. It also helps to exhaust heat in the summer.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

I'm in the process of making 2 quilt boxes for my 2 hives. I use all medium supers, so I just sacrificed a medium super, I have 1/4" hardware cloth to staple on the bottom, I will fill the box with clean pine shavings which I also use for my chicken coop, and that's it, just put the telescoping cover on top. Some people put the shavings or whatever into a pillow case first, that might keep the shavings from falling through, but I'm just going to try mine plain. If I find that shavings have fallen into the hive in the spring, I'll use a pillow case next time.

I have heard that not only will it wick up excess moisture and keep the condensation from dripping back down on the bees, but that it can be a source of water for the bees in the winter. I can't say for sure because I haven't tried it yet, but that's what I've heard. It makes sense that something porous like shavings would treat condensation more effectively than a styrofoam board.

P.S. - I've also heard that pine shavings are better to use than cedar because cedar is a natural insect deterrent, but since people make entire hives out of cedar, maybe that's not accurate.


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## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

I live in the cool damp Pacific Northwest - with moisture being a big problem. I'm trying these this year with wood chips:

http://www.honeybeesuite.com/how-to-make-a-moisture-quilt-for-a-langstroth-hive/

I used burlap (previously used to hold coffee) instead of canvas.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Cedar does not seem to affect honeybees. I use it because it deters ants and other critters. I also use it in my smoker because it has an effect on mites, supposedly. I used to use burlap to hold the chips, like a pillow, but have switched to simple window screen hardware cloth stapled to the bottom. The shavings that fall through don't seem to be a problem.

FYI - I am pretty high up and my weather should be very similar to what SunnyR2000 experiences. I actually have better luck overwintering at high altitude than down in the desert. It gets pretty warm down there during the day, and much colder at night. The bees go through a lot more down there and usually run out of stores faster. Up here in the mountains - the cold keeps them clustered better. My preference is actually to bring them up so they will sleep through winter and just make sure they have a supply of emergency feed. That being said, I usually overwinter about 1/2 on the mountain and the other 1/2 in the fields down in the desert for next season, to avoid a lot of moving hives. I normally run about 25 hives or so. Any more than that and I can't keep up with my full time job and everything else.


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

Based on Rusty's general plan I built these 4-in-1 inner covers for Pacific Northwest wet-winter beekeeping. They have a 1 1/4" space between the screen and top bars for placement of pollen/fondant patties. A few hives have tried to build comb in this space, but generally they don't.

1. With lid over center hole, screened inner cover (summer configuration)

2. Inverted half-gallon jar with feeder lid in center hole, empty super and telescoping cover on top (fall configuration, see hive in background in photo below)

3. Lid over center hole, filled with 2 1/2" layer of cedar chips (winter configuration)

4. Chips still in place, pollen/fondant patties below screen (early spring configuration)


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## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

Luterra - how have you liked that set up?


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I like that!


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## Luterra (Sep 7, 2011)

I built five of them last fall and overwintered 5 out of 5 hives. So far so good on that count. They are great for feeding, though I might add some #8 screen below the feeder lid to prevent bees from boiling out when I change syrup jars. In big hives the top 1-2" of cedar chips become saturated over winter, but I never had to change the chips as the airflow through the side holes allows some drying. I had one hive that built burr comb below the screen, so I gave them a regular inner cover for the summer season.

They are built from 1x4's, with a 1x6 across the middle with the wide-mouth size circular hole and 1/2" wide strips ripped from a 1x4 to attach the screen around the sides. 

I suspect (though I haven't tested it) that the significant summer airflow and light admittance might discourage bees from making use of the space directly below the cover. For this reason I switched back to regular inner covers when adding new supers of foundation that I wanted them to draw and fill.

Mark


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I have been using regular inner covers under my quilt boxes from the start. My first boxes used burlap, and the bees liked to chew on them. They don't usually go above the inner covers, however, unless you put food up there. I normally fill my hives with candy for emergency food, so I place a piece (or pieces) of burlap between the candy and inner cover.


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## SunnyR2000 (May 9, 2012)

Went ahead and built these for my 4 large hives that will overwinter. I used 2 mediums, one shallow, and one homemade box. The two mediums have fine screen stapled to the bottom - one has Aspen chips in it and the other has dried wood pulp shavings. The shallow has screen and wood pulp shavings. None of these have holes drilled in them, instead, I decided to shim-prop the top edge between the moisture board and top of these quilt boxes. The homemade box has ventilation holes on the long sides covered with screen and a fabric bottom with dried wood pulp. It will be a nice test! Am monitoring moisture by checking custom removable bottom boards. 

I've read that burlap has been treated with chemicals, so decided not to go that route.

Anyway, my set up for overwintering is as follows: 
2 Deep FULL Brood boxes
Inner cover 
Quilt Box 
Shim-prop 
Moisture board 
Tele-outer cover 
Propanel pieces as roof over hives 
Heavy rock 

...AND I built a wind block out of straw bales about two feet from the hives on the N and W side - where the wind hits this location. 

All have upper entrances (which they are using more frequently lately) along with reduced to medium size (about four inches) lower entrances. The plan is to reduce lowers further to one inch when the days are colder. All have mouse guards on - particularly at night when temps are in the high 20's. 

Soon will make tar paper covers, then will cam strap entire contraption for the winter. 

My bees are still taking some feed and really going at the pollen patties I've added. Monitoring mite load by checking custom board that cover SBB for winter/ non-summer weather. These girls are looking good so far as I can tell! 

Am I missing anything?

Crossing my fingers (and my eyes) hoping all is well.


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## Metropropolis (Feb 15, 2012)

SunnyR2000 said:


> So in my quest to provide the best winter experience possible for my bees here in SW CO, I ran into the idea of a quilt box. Has anyone tried them?


I would consider quilts necessary, and have them on every hive I run. In the winter, I fill with leaves for the insulation/wicking, and in the summer, I empty the leaves and they act as an air conditioner.

I've created step by step instructions at:

http://members.shaw.ca/metropropolis/Making a Langstroth Quilt.pdf


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## Cascade Hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

Why not use a standard Vivaldi ventilation board and fill with shavings or burlap? Isn't that the same as a quilt box?


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Metropropolis, that was about the best step by step with photos I've seen. I also like your idea of storing the entrance reducer in there.

I was concerned the bees might chew thru aluminum screening, so I opted for the hardware cloth but it's closer to 1/4 than 1/8 so we'll see how that goes. Might need a lining cloth/pillow case. I don't think you'd need a cross bar with hardware cloth tho.


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## SunnyR2000 (May 9, 2012)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Metropropolis, that was about the best step by step with photos I've seen. I also like your idea of storing the entrance reducer in there.
> 
> I was concerned the bees might chew thru aluminum screening, so I opted for the hardware cloth but it's closer to 1/4 than 1/8 so we'll see how that goes. Might need a lining cloth/pillow case. I don't think you'd need a cross bar with hardware cloth tho.


Mine are building wax and/ or propolising part of the inner cover ventilation hole. I checked their feed yesterday and noticed a pile of bees hanging from the quilt box. They don't appear to be chewing through the aluminum. I did notice a few shavings from the quilt box on the bottom board yesterday, but not so much to be concerned.

The only homemade version I have is the one I built to ventilate my hive last year. It was so hot last year...


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

SunnyR2000:

Those are some great ideas. My only concern would be the straw bales close to the hives. Here, in NW Ohio, those are often used in the same manner to insulate well housings and some times mobile homes. The issue is that they also become rodent city. You mentioned you already have mouse guards on the bottom - make sure you have them on the top, too.

Mouse damage is not pretty (and I hate the little rascals, too).


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## frankthomas (Aug 2, 2012)

Anyone see any downside to using regular window screen across the bottom of the box instead of coarser harware cloth? There'd be no concern of the insulating material getting in to the hive.


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## SunnyR2000 (May 9, 2012)

frankthomas said:


> Anyone see any downside to using regular window screen across the bottom of the box instead of coarser harware cloth? There'd be no concern of the insulating material getting in to the hive.


That's what I did, seems to be working.


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## SunnyR2000 (May 9, 2012)

merince said:


> SunnyR2000:
> 
> Those are some great ideas. My only concern would be the straw bales close to the hives. Here, in NW Ohio, those are often used in the same manner to insulate well housings and some times mobile homes. The issue is that they also become rodent city. You mentioned you already have mouse guards on the bottom - make sure you have them on the top, too.
> 
> Mouse damage is not pretty (and I hate the little rascals, too).


Agreed. Hopefully, the electric poultry net fence along with placing the straw on movable pallets will help keep the mice at bay. Thought having a wind block was worth then risk?


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## merince (Jul 19, 2011)

SunnyR2000 said:


> Agreed. Hopefully, the electric poultry net fence along with placing the straw on movable pallets will help keep the mice at bay. Thought having a wind block was worth then risk?


Let us know if you had any mouse damage in the spring. Sounds like you have it covered, though.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Another option for wind block besides straw bales is a piece of insulation board vertically behind the hives. I'm going to try to do that this year - Just prop them in with posts, set back a foot from the hives for air circulation.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Cascade Hunter - Vivaldi boards are not very common in most regions of the country. East of the Pacific Northwest and I would venture to guess very few have ever heard of them. I have only ever seen one bee supply house that even sells them - and it is up in Oregon. The Warre style quilt is most everyone's introduction to this idea.


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## Metropropolis (Feb 15, 2012)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Metropropolis, that was about the best step by step with photos I've seen. I also like your idea of storing the entrance reducer in there.


Well thank you! There are a few more on my site, and more in the pipe: members.shaw.ca/metropropolis/‎



NewbeeInNH said:


> I was concerned the bees might chew thru aluminum screening, so I opted for the hardware cloth but it's closer to 1/4 than 1/8 so we'll see how that goes. Might need a lining cloth/pillow case. I don't think you'd need a cross bar with hardware cloth tho.



You make a good point. I used #8 Hardware Cloth myself, and my suggesting Aluminum screen as an alternative was unhelpful. I'll have to revise that.

In regards to the crossbar.... My initial versions lacked a crossbar, and I found that the screen was being attached to the top bars, which put stress on the staples when lifting the quilt off.

The crossbar gives extra support to the screen, but repositioning inwards draws the screen taut, keeping it off of the top of frames, and allowing the bees a little space to move as well.


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## Metropropolis (Feb 15, 2012)

Cascade Hunter said:


> Why not use a standard Vivaldi ventilation board and fill with shavings or burlap? Isn't that the same as a quilt box?


The Vivaldi looks like a good product. It is just one of the many variations of quilt.

It may not be readily available to some, or some may feel they can build better and/or cheaper.

If you prefer to buy rather than build, the Vivaldi looks perfectly fine.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Metropropolis said:


> In regards to the crossbar.... My initial versions lacked a crossbar, and I found that the screen was being attached to the top bars, which put stress on the staples when lifting the quilt off.


Aha. Good to know.


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## rumeye (Mar 7, 2013)

I built 3 of these just wondering bees, quilt box, inner cover, tele cover in that order. Is this right ? Also have made entrance reducers for 1 bee width is this correct or do I need wider than 1 bee width ? Quilt boxes have 4 1 Inch screened holes is this enough ventilation or should I put more ? Get's mighty cold here in winter hope to get the girls through. Also going to wrap with 15 lb felt. Any tips would bee appreciated. I know there are people on here that live in my state maybe you could chime in.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

No, I believe you put the inner cover *under* the quilt box, just the telescoping cover on top of the quilt box. The bees will not be going up into the quilt box, so the upper entrance of the inner cover they won't be able to reach. Does that make sense?

Some don't use an inner cover at all with the quilt box. I guess they just put a shim up there or something for an upper entrance. I'm going to use the inner cover for the upper entrance, and keep the winter food in there I think.

Also not going to bother with ventilation holes. They should get that from the upper and lower entrances, and it would just given an opportunity to absorb outside moisture into the hive *in my opinion*. If it's filled with shavings, I don't see how a ventilation hole will provide much ventilation.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I put mine above the inner cover. My first ones had no vent holes either. My latest ones do have them. Not sure how much difference it makes. I added them mostly for hot weather venting, since the quilts are on year round for my hives.


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## imkerwannabee (Feb 27, 2012)

I plan to put cedar shavings on screen on top. Do I need some type of cloth between chips and screen to keep smaller pieces from falling into hive?

imkerwannabee


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Experienced beeks have told me no, just shake the shavings box a little before putting it on, and if some shavings do fall thru, it's okay.

I have the inner cover under my quilt box so a lot of excess shavings would end up there, altho I imagine the bees would try to take that out of the hive.

But this is my first winter with quilt boxes, so that's all I know.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Experienced beeks have told me no, just shake the shavings box a little before putting it on, and if some shavings do fall thru, it's okay.
> 
> I have the inner cover under my quilt box so a lot of excess shavings would end up there, altho I imagine the bees would try to take that out of the hive.


I had some 3/4 inch mesh screen on hand, so used it and added a rectagular piece of burlap on top of the screen to contain the shavings.


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## imkerwannabee (Feb 27, 2012)

Thanks NewBeeInNH and mgolden. I'll put some kind of cloth down before adding the shavings.

imkerwannabee


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## Cascade Hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

Resurrecting this thread with another rookie question. How are you winter feeding with a quilt box installed. Are you putting fondant directly on the frames, than a spacer and than the QB?


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I put mine over the empty super containing the candy or fondant. I also fill the empty space in the super with pieces of burlap.


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## Just Krispy (Aug 1, 2013)

Inner cover goes on top of quilt box. If its under, it blocks the benefit of the quilt box. Moisture gets trapped under the inner cover.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Just Krispy said:


> Inner cover goes on top of quilt box. If its under, it blocks the benefit of the quilt box. Moisture gets trapped under the inner cover.


Oh. That may be why they said in bee club: don't use an inner cover with a quilt box.

I put my inner cover under the quilt box so I could put winter food in there, but if you think the inner cover itself will trap and drip condensation, then I'll remove the inner cover altogether, and just put feed directly on top of the frames, with a shim to space.

Doesn't seem much good in putting an inner cover *over* the quilt box, bees can't get to it thru the shavings.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

So to summarize, what's the verdict: inner cover or no inner cover with a quilt box, and if so, where?


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## Cascade Hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

NewbeeInNH said:


> I put my inner cover under the quilt box so I could put winter food in there, [snip]


 ....and therein lies the crux of my problem. Where do you top feed when using a QB?


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## Just Krispy (Aug 1, 2013)

Put a spacer under the quilt box to make room for food. I recessed the screen in my quilt boxes to make room for sugar bricks.


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## Cascade Hunter (Sep 22, 2013)

Just Krispy said:


> Put a spacer under the quilt box to make room for food. I recessed the screen in my quilt boxes to make room for sugar bricks.


And then feed directly on the frames?


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## KenNashua (Jan 31, 2015)

Luterra said:


> Based on Rusty's general plan I built these 4-in-1 inner covers for Pacific Northwest wet-winter beekeeping. They have a 1 1/4" space between the screen and top bars for placement of pollen/fondant patties. A few hives have tried to build comb in this space, but generally they don't.


I really like the design. Have you had any issues with the strip for the mason jar feeder being large enough to have moisture condense on?


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## razoo (Jul 7, 2015)

NewbeeInNH said:


> So to summarize, what's the verdict: inner cover or no inner cover with a quilt box, and if so, where?


No inner cover


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## costigaj (Oct 28, 2015)

I'm using one this year. Shallow super with aluminum screen on the bottom, then a queen excluder stapled to it and filled with clean natural wood shavings. The finer mesh should keep the dust down and the queen excluder provides structural support. I have 2 ea., 3/4 inch holes drilled at an upward angle on each side of the super, with aluminum screening stapled on the inside to keep out critters. Holes provide ventilation. I'm painting it now.


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## ridgerunner (Feb 14, 2016)

check out this thread in the Equipment section:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?331224-Quilt-box-ventilation


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## ddjd412 (Sep 3, 2019)

Does anyone have images of the quilt box Luterra created? They aren't available anymore for some reason


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Have cloth above the screening at least in most of the center area so wood particles are not falling down into the brood. I like to use an inch and a half shim for feeder space and to keep the bees from propolizing the the quilt box screen down to the frames. Makes a mess when you try to lift it for inspection/pollen sub feeding in spring.

Vent the top of the quilt box so the gradually transpiring moisture can dissipate to the air. The idea is not to _suck up and store it_! 4 or 5 gallons of water is produced from metabolizing the winters honey and the quilt box will dissipate it draft free while still providing good R value.


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## John_M (Aug 13, 2019)

Many russian/ukrainian beekeepers use a sheet of plastic as an inner cover, some use a piece of cotton canvas which the bees can propalize to allow the level of air exchange they want. University of Guelph, Ontario uses exclusively 10 oz cotton duck as an inner cover. Ian Steglar in Manitoba uses reflective film bubble wrap with a triagle flap the can be folded back to allow access to a migratory cover hive top feeder. Many of these people winter indoors.


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## ddjd412 (Sep 3, 2019)

Thanks for the clarification. This is good info, especially regarding the bees propolizing the quilt box. Thanks for the response!


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## ddjd412 (Sep 3, 2019)

I've seen some of U of G videos, and have seen his duck cloth. My concern is that it would block any ability to do winter feeding, and would block the quilt box from working correctly. I've heard that inner covers should be removed so the quilt box can work best and suck up as much moisture as possible. What do you think?


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## John_M (Aug 13, 2019)

Much depends on the rest of the hive design. Roger Delon's concept of the climate controlled hive uses a vapor impermeable top liner. By nature the heavy moist co2 laden air rises above the cluster then to the outside edges of the hive and falls to the bottom having an opportunity to condense on the side walls and the bottom. Both the Alpine Hive and the UDAV are based roughly on his ideas. The quilt will lose efficiency as an insulator as it becomes saturated. It really shocked me when I started to watch Russian beekeepers with plastic sheet inner covers and very small entrances. Wouldn't think there would be enough ventilation but it seems to work for them. Most of them feed fondant in the winter, under the plastic. Before winter they put feeders under the plastic or on top of with a hole cut in the plastic as Ian does.


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