# Minimum OA Dribble Temperature



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I've looked all over for a recommended minimum temperature for OAD and cannot seem to find one.
It came up in another thread about OAV and I don't want to derail it.

Can anyone point any temperatures out?


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

I did my last one when the temps were about 50F and above.
My theory is as much as bees flying


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I would not go below 50, and give them enough time before a tempeteure drop to clean up.


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## Forgiven (Nov 17, 2016)

40 F should still be fine, maybe even 32 F, but the dribble syrup itself should be warm regardless of outdoor temperatures (whatever methods you can dream up for that, keeping it close to body, thermos, car seat heater with a blanket, just warm car...).


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I oa dribbled at 35*F using warm sugar water on a calm day, Oliver instructions. Not pleased with the results and think it was air temperature related.
Lost 2 of 5 hives in my experiment. I did not inspect them after the dribble but upon first late winter inspection found the dead colonies.
All hives in the yard had good bee populations, healthy bees, winter weight and young queens before treatment.
I oa vaporized the other hives in the yard the next day, upon first late winter inspection none were dead.
If I oa dribble again the air temperature will be 10-15*F warmer or 45-50*F.

I have not been able to find a recommended minimum temperature for application of OAD. I am not at all
certain many that speak of it have actually used the method.
Would like very much to hear from those that oa dribble in cooler fall temps as well.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Forgiven said:


> 40 F should still be fine, maybe even 32 F, but the dribble syrup itself should be warm regardless of outdoor temperatures (whatever methods you can dream up for that, keeping it close to body, thermos, car seat heater with a blanket, just warm car...).


Have you oa dribbled in air temperatures near 32*F ? the results?


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## Forgiven (Nov 17, 2016)

clyderoad said:


> Have you oa dribbled in air temperatures near 32*F ? the results?


Personally no. And would definitely prefer nearer 40, but there seems to be opinion going around that not treating is worse than treating in slightly colder weather. Hm, actually, just looked and one of the sources for all kinds of advice that I use (in finnish, by a beek of about thousand hives) recommends temperature of 'near zero or slightly under' (which would be in C so 32F). And the logic there seems to be just that they are less likely to try flying around.

How cold can they really get? There should be no brood anyways and the work takes like a minute at most...


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Forgiven said:


> Personally no. And would definitely prefer nearer 40, but there seems to be opinion going around that not treating is worse than treating in slightly colder weather. Hm, actually, just looked and one of the sources for all kinds of advice that I use (in finnish, by a beek of about thousand hives) recommends temperature of 'near zero or slightly under' (which would be in C so 32F). And the logic there seems to be just that they are less likely to try flying around.
> 
> How cold can they really get? There should be no brood anyways and the work takes like a minute at most...


>Please link your reference. Maybe I can translate to English somehow.


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## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

Hi Clyderoad,
We normally do it this time of year, waiting till hives are completely broodless. I did 4 yards yesterday at 30F and plan to finish the last 2 yards today 26F. Have not noticed a difference in 40F or 25F. Have used this treatment for a yearend cleanup for 15 years or so. Usually do formic in may and late july after summer honey is pulled.
No beesuit needed in this weather. maybe a snow shovel will bee needed today!.
Nick
gridleyhollow.com


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## Forgiven (Nov 17, 2016)

clyderoad said:


> >Please link your reference. Maybe I can translate to English somehow.



Here you go: http://www.mesi.fi/hoito-ohjeet/punkin-torjunnasta/

but google translate is notariously terrible with finnish at least. (Edit: apparently the page is around in english too, partially, I don't see the 'instructions' section in english though...)


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

What I have understood slightly under freezing point temperatures are ok for OAD. Advantage is that bees are more calm, than in 10 C, for instance. In 10 C they tend to fly when you open the lid.
If and when the temps go up again, it does not matter if the drippling is done in a bit colder temps. The cluster will expand and get warmer, and the effect of drippling is good. This is generally accepted fact among finnish professionals. Many of them if not all are forced to do drippling near freezing point temperatures year after year.


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

OAD is part of our treatment for Varroa here in Germany. In fact is is the only legal way we are allowed to use it. Hives are monitored from November onward to check for brood. As soon as they are broodless, its recommended to wait for the next frosty morning and treat early in the morning while its still cold. The aim of course is a tight cluster and the colder the better. Opening hives in -5 deg C is to treat is not out of the ordinary. Much of the literature about OAD describes this method and it is also taught in beginners courses.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TSGBXfJdLs&index=9&list=PLJpM6MZOfgAm7tIZxxJNvzqfLyEezQwJi


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

funwithbees said:


> Hi Clyderoad,
> We normally do it this time of year, waiting till hives are completely broodless. I did 4 yards yesterday at 30F and plan to finish the last 2 yards today 26F. Have not noticed a difference in 40F or 25F. Have used this treatment for a yearend cleanup for 15 years or so. Usually do formic in may and late july after summer honey is pulled.
> No beesuit needed in this weather. maybe a snow shovel will bee needed today!.
> Nick
> gridleyhollow.com


Thank you for your response.
I use a similiar treatment schedule but skipping the spring treatment most years as the hives usually don't need it then and can
carry on just fine until honey is off.
Any idea if the treatment may be the cause of any deadouts you may find in the late winter/early spring? do your bees winter in NY?
how do the queens respond to spring build up after oad treatment in the fall? do they get superceded? 

I have been hesitant to use dribble since my experiment figuring a 40% loss is too high if it followed through the whole operation. Been vaporizing instead waiting until I learned from those that use it regularly. Checked and rechecked all of my procedures against the Oliver suggestions and temperature is the only 'unknown' I've been able to come up with. Not certain about that now.

Since your response a few others have chimed in, I'm grateful for the input. If you others could answer the questions I asked funwithbees (except the winter in NY question haha) I'd appreciate it.
Good to hear you all have used it successfully.
I would like to feel oad is a potential late season cleanup treatment and be comfortable giving it another go. Not there yet though.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

It was interesting for me that in the youtube video the whole dosage was given in the bottom box after cracking the boxes. In Canada the recommendations are half in the top box half bottom box. The next video showed the next guy basically doing the same thing. Trophallaxis at it's best. I might have to reconsider using the method. Most guys do not like the method because by the time hives are broodless, they are also wrapped. Unwrapping them to treat would be onerous. The favored method if using oxalic is vaporization.

Jean-Marc


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## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

Hard questions. We skip the early treatment some years when there are no mites. This year there were lots.
I do not believe the treatments cause deadouts.(maybe they do :scratch Usually starvation, lack of cleansing flights,viruses- it would be interesting to do OAV and OAD on half (20 hives of each treatment) of each yard for comparison for a few years and see if there is a diff. Our state apiarist lives here in Cortland County and quit keeping his bees here for the winter due to high winterlosses, so it aint easy. 
This year losses are high already. Mites were high even though they were treated with formic properly, and the viruses were bad ( per BIP sampling). This varied widely from location to location. I have not been able to point a finger on the actual cause ie. drought, nutrition, ag chems,. Many commercial beeks in upstate NY are having the same issues right now. Spring buildup is good.
Yes, I am stationary. Beeks in Scandinavia have been doing this for 20 years with good success. 
Anyone know what is happening in rnai for killing viruses?
Nick
gridleyhollow.com


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## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

BTW I did 60 hives this afternoon at 23F and windy with lake effect snow inbetween sunny intervals. BBBBBBBBRRRRRRR! Bees could care less. 
Nick


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

funwithbees (Nick), do you treat as shown in the German videos above? I figured I might just dribble from the top and not break into the middle of the cluster, figuring it would trickle down through them enough. But breaking the boxes like that doesn't look too bad either.

Really intrigued by the posts here. I haven't once seen a minimum temperature listed for OAD, but have read more than once that some guys (particularly in Europe if I recall) will dribble them in the dead of winter. But haven't seen numbers to assign to their "dead of winter" until now. It's nice to get some numbers. We were at 60-70 degrees so far into November that I assumed, but did not check, that they brooded pretty late.

Is there a cluster size that makes you nervous to think about dribbling? I'm thinking that I'd like to do my nucs as well.

For instance, would you be uncomfortable dribbling on Sunday if you saw this forecast?



If I don't hit them on Sunday I don't know when the cold snap will end. Usually we get a nicer day around Christmas every year, but it's not looking great for that. And we're not even to the cold part of winter around here yet. If the pattern holds it will be a nasty January.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> Is there a cluster size that makes you nervous to think about dribbling? I'm thinking that I'd like to do my nucs as well.


No reason to be nervous, just apply small enough amount.

One ml (1/1000 of a litre) of OAD solution is enough to treat about 600 bees. 

4-5 ml/ frame full of bees


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## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

Hi,
We don 't break the boxes apart. I run 10 frames in 10 frame boxes and dribble from the top. Breaking them open defeats the ease of the treatment, plus you take a lot of stings. I have an aversion to a veil etc in the winter. 
I would do them if I had your forecast.

Nick


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Thank you very much to Juhani and funwithbees and everyone else who's contributed to this thread!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Personally I wouldn't trickle anything under about 4 (deep) combs. It seems to me that it's kind of tough on them as they retain that "wet" look for a few days.
As far as outside air temps I think 40-45 degrees is a pretty good temp. Fairly loose cluster and not many bees will fly. I don't recall doing it in temps much lower than 40 but it would depend a lot on the cluster size.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

thanks jwcarlson for this posting this thread, and to all who have contributed. it is very helpful information although I'm gun shy
to try again even in light of everyone's responses. Still wondering about the number of dead outs due to dribble treatment. 

funwithbees> I have heard about the losses upstate NY this season. The bee tech team sampled some commercials
this summer/fall, I'm interested in reading/hearing the results when released. 
Most I know who winter south want the early spring start, early blooms and somewhere warm to go during winter  NY Inspectors
are nothing more than a myth to us down here but why the big problem if others can winter in the north successfully?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

clyderoad said:


> thanks jwcarlson for this posting this thread, and to all who have contributed. it is very helpful information although I'm gun shy
> to try again even in light of everyone's responses. Still wondering about the number of dead outs due to dribble treatment.


How "hot" of a mix did you use when you treated, clyderoad?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

3.2%. 
Oliver calls it "medium"


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