# Swarm managment



## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Splitting in my option is the swarm prevention method of last resort. You would do it when you see several swarm cells.

When you do a split (when there are no queen cells at the time), you need to go into the queenless hive 7 days later and cull the number of emergency queen cells down to 2 (in case one doesn't make it).

If you leave multiple queen cells, the bees will be in swarm mode. Because they swarm when there are more than a few queens available. Look up prime swarm and after swarms. The bees will keep the queens from fighting and will swarm with each virgin queen, sometimes until there are nearly no bees left, but once there is one queen left they should stay put.

For beginner beekeepers I would suggest Opening the Sides of the Broodnest as a way to help prevent swarming and to get a honey crop.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Why would a hive swarm multiple times.

Bees swarm _because they can_.  Swarming is how a colony reproduces itself. _Michael Bush_ has a page on swarms, including comments on your _afterswarms_, here:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Bees swarm _because they can_.  Swarming is how a colony reproduces itself. _Michael Bush_ has a page on swarms, including comments on your _afterswarms_, here:
> 
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm


IMHO, Michael Bush's method of swarm control is the best I've ever read. I've opened up the brood nest in all my hives in the spring two years in a row and have had very little swarming. The hardest part is doing it before they even think about swarming. Read it and try it. It really works.


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

My 3rd year was my year of swarms I had 3 hives and did nothing as far as SPM and I ended up with 8 swarms it was just crazy never saw a swarm before that in my life. Any way this year [my 4th} I had no swarms from my big hives{10} and what I did was as soon as they start to brood up I put my bottom box on the top and pulled some brood out to the sides and put some blank frames in the middle but you have to wait till there is enough bees to cover all brood then as soon as the main flow started I pulled all the queens out of my honey hives and I let them requeen all there hives and got a nice honey crop and a brood break for VARROA. and no swarms worked great plus 10 new nucs.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I've found Opening the Broodnest can occasionally cause two issues. Unintentionally causing Queen cells being built and chilling of brood.

This is because a group of Nurse Bees can become isolated from the Queen because of the new empty frame inbetween them. Even if it's for a few hours, it can cause them to start building emergency queen cells/supersedure queen cells because of the reduced queen pheromone they experience.

Inserting new frames in the broodnest also forces the bees to have to cover a larger area in order to heat the Broodnest. So if bad weather sets in you can get chilled brood.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

This is alot for a new beek to take in as we don't fully understand all the little hints of what the bees are thinking and when there going to swarm all of a sudden . I know quite a few beeks that don't try to manage for swarming , they are happy to let them swarm , they might get the swarm and start a new hive and they get a nice new young queen in the original hive to boot .I'm all for some swarm management but if your not in your hives constantly monitoring there activity and watching for queen cells it seems tough . Is there a more relaxed way of swarm management that works, I'm sure a lot of beeks don't have the time to get inside there hives every week .


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

MattDavey said:


> I've found Opening the Broodnest can occasionally cause two issues. Unintentionally causing Queen cells being built and chilling of brood.


I've never experienced problems with Queens cells being built from opening the brood nest, perhaps they were already preparing to build swarm cells. 

You make an excellent point regarding chilling of brood. You put the brood at risk if this procedure is done too aggressively, or at the incorrect time. Only a couple of frames at a time should be opened up. More than that and you risk spreading out the bees too much and chilling the brood. The colony also needs to have more than enough bees to easily fill the gaps created with the empty frames, and still cover all the brood in the colony. If these two things are followed closely the colony keeps right on going without missing a beat.

Most problems occur when the broodnest is opened up too early in the season, when there are not really enough bees to cover everything. Or, if several frames at a time are inserted and the brood nest is spread out too thin. 

Depending upon how fast they are drawing out new comb you should be able to insert a couple of empty frames every week or two if they are drawing out comb quickly. You need to analyze each individual colony and work with them at their own pace.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

There is a school of thought that swarming is not all bad for the beekeeper - particularly when the swarm is a prime swarm and caught by the beekeeper and used to establish a new managed colony. The idea (which I don't buy into 100%) is that the composition of a prime swarm is "better" equipped population wise to establish a new colony than packages and many nucs.

After swarms are a pain in the rear; all I know to do is to take frames with queen cells on them and use them to make up nucs. And expand the brood nest of the donor colony.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

laketrout said:


> Is there a more relaxed way of swarm management that works, I'm sure a lot of beeks don't have the time to get inside there hives every week .


If there was an easier, more relaxed way to prevent swarming everyone would already be doing it. If your schedule does not allow you to get into your colony every week or two at the most in the springtime, then you can pretty much bet that they will be swarming. 

If you are in that situation I think your best option would be timely spring splits to reduce your losses from swarms. The down side to splits is that you divide your work force and your honey crop will be affected significantly.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

How do the commercial guys deal with swarming .


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I think many of them practice reversing, also intense manipulations to control swarming. It's their livelihood, so they are in their colonies regularly. If they are honey producers, and they left their hives alone for weeks in the spring, they would be out of business very quickly.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

MattDavey said:


> I've found Opening the Broodnest can occasionally cause two issues. Unintentionally causing Queen cells being built and chilling of brood.


I have never had queen cells being built by opening the brood nest. I've had just the opposite effect where they have enough room and don't think about building queen cells.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Charlie B said:


> IMHO, Michael Bush's method of swarm control is the best I've ever read. The hardest part is doing it before they even think about swarming.


It works very well for me too. 

Another thing to consider, and to do some advance planning for, is having extra empty brood comb over winter that is ready for you to use in the spring. For me it makes all the difference in the world to have drawn comb available early in the season. 

For overwintered colonies there seems to be a 2-3 week period, which coincides with the beginning of backfilling and swarm preparation, in which the bees are not quite ready to start drawing out new comb yet. Locally that seems to be from the middle of April until early May. This is the initial time period to start frame manipulations to delay swarm prep, but "empty" frames inserted are sometimes ignored and they continue to prepare to swarm. If empty "drawn" comb is inserted during this period it seems to bridge that gap until they start drawing out comb on empty frames. 

I don't know if I'm making sense, but it's just something I often run into in the Spring. It's difficult for a new beekeeper in their first year or two to have extra comb available. It's just very valuable to have it around in early Spring and something that I think should be included in a long term plan.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

laketrout said:


> This is alot for a new beek to take in as we don't fully understand all the little hints of what the bees are thinking and when there going to swarm all of a sudden . I know quite a few beeks that don't try to manage for swarming , they are happy to let them swarm , they might get the swarm and start a new hive and they get a nice new young queen in the original hive to boot .I'm all for some swarm management but if your not in your hives constantly monitoring there activity and watching for queen cells it seems tough . Is there a more relaxed way of swarm management that works, I'm sure a lot of beeks don't have the time to get inside there hives every week .


Opening the Sides really only involves two steps:

1. Move 2 outside frames (without any brood or eggs, but with capped honey) from a brood box into a new box and checkerboard/alternate the frames with new frames. Center them so that they are directly above the Broodnest.

2. Find the outside edge of the Broodnest and insert 2 new frames into the brood box, so that brood is only on one side of each new frame.

Then repeat about every 2-3 weeks.



You don't need to look for queen cells or the queen, just evidence that she is laying eggs.

You want to have done this about 3 times before swarm season. That way the bees will easily have drawn out at least a full 10 frame deep box and be working on a second.

For example, 2 frames the first time, 2 frames the second time. You have now nearly checkboarded a whole 10 frame box. (4 frames with honey, 6 new frames.) Third time, put the frames into a another new box.

I actually find they have drawn out more frames than the ones between the honey frames. So by the third time you go in you are onto another new box.

Where I live, we have a slow spring buildup (about 12 weeks), so I've only needed to go in every 4 weeks. But some people have reported a spring buildup of only 6 weeks between the start of spring and swarm season. In that case you would need to do it every 2 weeks.

During swarm season you need to go in every 2 weeks. Continue moving up honey frames and checkerboarding them.


Objectives:
1. Develop wax makers well before swarm season.

2. Maintain wax making throughout swarm season and well into the main flow.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I've never experienced problems with Queens cells being built from opening the brood nest, perhaps they were already preparing to build swarm cells...


Maybe, but this is what happened:

A new queen, laying for at least 8 weeks or so, laying like crazy. 

I didn't like how the bees had drawn out a comb on the outside edge of the box. So I removed a large section of the comb from that frame. I then put the frame in the middle of the Broodnest. I saw the queen and she was In the section to the right had side of the frame.

Several days later I came back to see the progress of the frame. I then found 2 capped queen cells on a frame to the left hand side of the frame that I moved.

Another time, I moved a brood frame that I thought only had small about of capped brood on it up into a super without direct contact to the Broodnest. I later found that they had built 2 queen cells on that frame.

I've also seen a number of posts here from people saying their bees superseded a queen that was laying like crazy or swarmed. I then find that they have Checkerboarded the brood box! Often the comment was that it was done "Just in case they decide to swarm." Checkerboarding the brood box is an extreme version of Opening the Broodnest, but the point is it can cause Nurse bees to become isolated for a while.

I would rather not mess with the internal workings of the Broodnest, when placing new frames on the outer edge of the Broodnest has the same desired effect - comb building.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Matt , Thanks for trying to simplify this for me but after reading this thread and the one on Nov. 8th I'm pretty lost . When you say in step 1 to remove two frames and put them in a new box are you working with single deeps most of the time , all of my hives are double deeps does that change everything .


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

You can apply this to double deeps or horizontal hives.

With the double deep you could actually move up 4 frames into a new box if the the Broodnest is spread between both. If the Broodnest is only in the top of the double deep, just insert new frames to that box. The new frames must be beside brood for comb to be built.

I tend to think to start with 2 frames the first time to get the wax makers going in the first place. Then you can move to 4 frames the second time.

This all assumes you use the same size frames for brood and supers.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Just swapping frames between my two deeps isn't going to accomplish the same thing is it .


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

laketrout said:


> Just swapping frames between my two deeps isn't going to accomplish the same thing is it .


No. It just causes the bees to reorganise things. 

The idea is to get them making wax and drawing comb. So swapping isn't going to help in that regard.




laketrout said:


> How do the commercial guys deal with swarming?


The commercial guys have empty drawn comb. So the bees fill the empty comb with nectar rather than backfilling the Broodnest (which leads to swarming.)


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Don't know whether Matthew realizes it or not, but what he is doing is putting the colony into the "2nd year mode of operation."
In the first year of operation, the colony is operating in the "establishment mode." In that mode, the objective is to fill their residence cavity with functional comb and provide enough stores for surviving their first winter. To accomplish that goal, early emphasis is on broodnest expansion downward to build the population that will backfill the overhead vacated cells with wintering honey. Not all get it done, and the literature suggests that most natural swarms perish in their first winter.

Fully established colonies (cavity filled with functional comb) start swarm preps in late winter to perpetuate the species. They must get the repro swarm in the air early enough to have time for establishment on the spring flow. No fall flow in the forest of their origins.

2nd year colonies have some flexibility in their late winter activitys. If they met establishment requirements in the their first season, they behave much like the fully established. But if they percieve that their cavity was not filled with comb, and they survived to spring forage availability, they have the capability to start early wax-making - to complete establishment. When that is done, they can then shift their focus to repro swarming. Those that meet the requirements for both establishment and swarm preps can swarm.

Note that some beeks "force" the 1st year colony to complete establishment by moving outside frames of foundation into the broodnest to be drawn. That may not be in the beekeeper's best interest.

I believe Matthew's approach would be effective, but it's definately not the easiest or simplest. Simple checkerboarding of overhead capped honey has good results with less effort. But you need drawn comb to do it right. Therein lays the snag.

Walt


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## rweaver7777 (Oct 17, 2012)

I love the discussion and am learning a lot (hopefully learning the right way?), but my brain just exploded. Walt, you explained a lot in your post, and I almost hate to ask, but can your explanation be simplified any for a guy who's having trouble just taking it in?


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

4X7, 
Maybe. Let's let Matthew have a crack at it, first.
W


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

wcubed said:


> Note that some beeks "force" the 1st year colony to complete establishment by moving outside frames of foundation into the broodnest to be drawn. That may not be in the beekeeper's best interest. Walt


I'm not sure I understand. Why would it not be a good thing to push a colony to become completely established in their first year? What are the negatives? When you have a few minutes I'm hoping you can explain this more fully. Thanks.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Mike G,
I do not have any comparison data on the subject - have not ever done it. But I have a standard rule against brood nest disturbances of all kinds. IMO, any type of brood shuffling not only eats into the colony safety margins for brood protection, but also slows growth for the period of recovery. Hence, "may."

It seems to me that the presence of foundation in the cavity "may" be an asset in the spring of the second season. If the colony developes early wax making as a result of perception of incomplete establishment, it could easily help in other ways. They might not balk at foundation overhead. Be aware that is just a guess.

Another feature of 2nd year colonies that is unique is that they will normally store nectar overhead during the pre-main flow period when the fully established do not. (The period between early and main flows) If both those features are prompted by "completing establishment", the benefits could be enormous.

I no longer keep bees. Would you like to check out the concepts?? Somebody should.
Walt


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Thanks Walt!

In terms of simplifying it, look at it in terms of a wild hive in a fixed sized cavity such as a hollow in a tree.

*First season - Establishment Mode:*
A swarm fills up on as much honey that they can and then leaves to set up a new hive in a cavity.
The bees then make as much comb in the cavity that they can with that honey.
Then they set about establishing the hive.
Comb is only built when more space is needed.
Comb is filled from the top down pushing the Broodnest down.
They often don't fill the whole cavity with comb during the first season.


*Second season - Incomplete Establishment/Incomplete Cavity:*
As pollen and then nectar starts becoming available, the Broodnest is expanded and existing comb filled.
When more space is needed and because the cavity is not completely filled with comb, then more comb is built.
Once the cavity is completely filled with comb, then they are fully established.


*Second season - Fully Established:*
If the cavity is completely filled with comb and the incoming nectar completely fills all available comb.
A solid band of honey is seen above the Broodnest and the Broodnest is then backfilled with nectar.
With little space for the queen to lay eggs, and many nurse bees, then queen cells are started.
Having at made at least several queens cells, the young bees leave with the existing queen in a swarm.


So the idea of Opening the Sides is to keep the hive in the Incomplete Establishment mode. The incomplete cavity causes comb to continue to be built. This uses up nectar to make wax and allows more space to store nectar.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I'm not sure I understand. Why would it not be a good thing to push a colony to become completely established in their first year? What are the negatives? When you have a few minutes I'm hoping you can explain this more fully. Thanks.


In my opinion, when a beekeeper inserts new frames inside the Broodnest of a hive in Establishment mode, it takes away nectar/honey from the hive that would be used for stores. This is because it causes the Broodnest to be a larger volume and so requires extra heating to keep it at the correct temperature. This uses up nectar. Also, because the broodnest is incomplete the bees are forced to make wax and build comb to fill the hole. This also uses up nectar. Some say 8 times the amount of nectar is used to make 1 amount of wax. It also takes away from raising brood, slowing growth.

The result is that the beekeeper needs to feed the hive for it to survive the winter. Feeding sugar syrup is a poor substitute for honey. It has a different ph, lacks antibacterial properties, and is nutrient deficient. So it likely affects the health of the overwintering hive.

Let them work on putting away stores instead. Put them in a double Nuc for winter if needed.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

MattDavey said:


> 2. Find the outside edge of the Broodnest and insert 2 new frames into the brood box, so that brood is only on one side of each new frame.
> Then repeat about every 2-3 weeks.
> You want to have done this about 3 times before swarm season.


This is the part where I get hung up, and it may just be a regional thing. This procedure would be nearly impossible to accomplish where I'm located. With an overwintered colony, established or not, the bees are not going to draw out any new comb until they are actually past swarm preparation. Six to nine weeks prior to swarm prep we are still in the winter season. 

Locally this would be a terrific method of expanding drawn comb "after" the swarm season when we're in the main flow, but it would not help to prevent swarming. Here I have to have fully drawn comb available for the bees to move into until the wax makers are ready following swarm season.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Mike, have you tried putting a new frame beside the Broodnest before swarm season?

I didn't see any comb building until swarm season either, until I noticed it happening in a long hive when there was an empty frame beside brood. I've now tried it on other hives and it worked!

If you have tried it, was it a full sheet of foundation?

I use foundationless frames with only a starter strip on the top bar. Maybe that's the difference.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I don't use foundation any more, only empty frames with starter strips. I have not tried to actually insert empty frames beside the broodnest prior to swarm prep. But I have noticed that any empty frames or frames with incomplete comb which were within the broodnest area of an overwintered hive are completely ignored until well into or past the swarm prep period.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Mike G.
Ignoring was what I got with foundation 20 years ago - trying the Seacrist "Clear broodnest" approach. That was my first clue to the internal operations of the established/overwintered colony not having wax-making capability. Made me want to know more about how they run their shop.

Matthew added a few more valid reasons for not scrambling brood frames. But neither of us mentioned another consideration I think importent. That it is very difficult to stop swarming in an established double deep, well supplied in the fall. Unless you are willing to add a 3rd deep in swarm prevention, you are almost required to weaken the colony by splits or division. There is a large contingent of advisors here on the forums that believe splitting is the ONLY answer to swarm prevention. Taking away strength also lessens honey production. I'm not sure they would believe the effects of checkerboarding if they saw them. CB increases colony strength and production.

4X7,
Simplified, by putting empty frames at the outside edge of the broodnest, the insulating band of bees is located in the "hole" in the functional comb. They can't ignore the discrepancy. Takes 10 days per the literature from filling their tank with nectar to wax making ability. Then, they can start drawing comb. Does this help?

Walt


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I noted that the link to the MB site also described that the frames did not have foundation. Does anybody do this method with foundation or does that defeat the purpose? I was wondering because my 10 F boxes rarely do much with the outside frames unless I move them to the center and was thinking of simply moving the outside to the center (slot 1 and 10 to 4 and 5).


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

wcubed said:


> ... it is very difficult to stop swarming in an established double deep, well supplied in the fall. Unless you are willing to add a 3rd deep in swarm prevention, you are almost required to weaken the colony by splits or division.
> Walt


I agree with that assessment wholeheartedly. I know you are not a big fan of mediums, but your point above is one of the reasons that I switched over to using all mediums for brood and supers. 

I've tried a modified version of your CB method with mediums and it has worked very well for me. In late winter if a colony still has a box with capped honey on top I will CB it with another box of empty comb. Works great as the bees move up through the boxes in the spring. If they do not have a full medium on top with capped stores then there is typically a bottom box that is mostly empty, that will go on top. Either way the bees build up and move up as the season progresses. Later, if I notice them trying to backfill, is when I might do some frame manipulation to keep the broodnest opened a little bit.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I don't use foundation any more, only empty frames with starter strips. I have not tried to actually insert empty frames beside the broodnest prior to swarm prep. But I have noticed that any empty frames or frames with incomplete comb which were within the broodnest area of an overwintered hive are completely ignored until well into or past the swarm prep period.


I have also seen a hive overwinter with an incomplete frame of comb, (the one I mentioned earlier that caused a couple of queen cells.)

But as soon as the development of Wax Makers was triggered by inserting new empty frames, the incomplete comb was also fully drawn out along with the new frames.

It was like the incomplete comb had been drawn out to an "acceptable" amount that the bees could put up with, but adding the new frames beside brood can not be ignored. This triggers Wax Makers and from there they just seem to continue to make wax until they fill any holes.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I wonder if there is there anyone in the "Northern" US who has tried this successfully. For this to work in Ohio I would have to be adding empty frames in March or earlier, as swarm preparation usually starts up in April with dandelion and the first wave of fruit tree blooms. In March the bees are only flying on a limited number of days and foraging on tree pollen. Sometimes we even get blasts of snow in March. 

I could picture this working in a milder climate with an extended spring season. If anyone in the north has done this successfully I would like to learn how you did it. It just seems very risky for me to be opening up the hive too much in February and March and breaking up the cluster.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

DanielY has been doing it as well, he's from Reno, NV. See his comments here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290784-Opening-the-Sides-of-the-Broodnest&p=1017663#post1017663


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

MattDavey said:


> I use foundationless frames with only a starter strip on the top bar. Maybe that's the difference.


i experimented two years ago with a few hives putting foundation vs. foundationless frames into the broodnest prior to swarm preps. it was a small sample size, but the foundationless frames were drawn (into mostly drone comb) and the foundation frames were ignored until after swarm preps.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

With mine being mostly foundationless they have plenty of drone comb (and plenty of drone brood!) There may have been a bit of a preference for building of drone comb the first round. But with the second round they seemed to build more worker comb. 

One hive in particular I noticed was pulling down new drone comb to change it to worker comb, because the Broodnest was still expanding.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

> There is a large contingent of advisors here on the forums that believe splitting is the ONLY answer to swarm prevention. Taking away strength also lessens honey production. I'm not sure they would believe the effects of checkerboarding if they saw them. CB increases colony strength and production.


Is Walt suggesting that just checkerboarding could work and be a easier method of swarm prevention even in a double deep going into its second season .
With this method I would only be checkerboarding frames in the top deep and not opening the broodnest in the bottom box, correct .


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I wonder if there is there anyone in the "Northern" US who has tried this successfully. For this to work in Ohio I would have to be adding empty frames in March or earlier, as swarm preparation usually starts up in April with dandelion and the first wave of fruit tree blooms. In March the bees are only flying on a limited number of days and foraging on tree pollen. Sometimes we even get blasts of snow in March.
> 
> I could picture this working in a milder climate with an extended spring season. If anyone in the north has done this successfully I would like to learn how you did it. It just seems very risky for me to be opening up the hive too much in February and March and breaking up the cluster.


Mike, This past spring I was adding frames to my hives on March 1st. as I did I noticed my bees had already started without me. The previous 2 weeks had been consistently to cold to open the hives but the bees had started build up right in the midst of it. I had 1 2nd year colony and 3 nucs. The 2nd year built up quickly into 4 supers. They did eventually swarm but I believe that was due to lack of drawn comb on my part. All the nucs built up I believe became completely established and produced on average 50 lbs of harvestable honey each. This is real world with all the real setbacks results. I now have 11 nucs going into winter with 8 established hives.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

laketrout,
In PA, you are not likely to be able to CB a double deep. In western PA, your are likely to have your late winter cluster in the top box in late winter. Eastern - expansion into the top box. To CB, you would need to leave an extra super of honey at the top in the fall to CB in late winter. That is the main reason the northern beekeepers reject the concepts, or consider CB inappropriate for their area.

Actually, leaving the extra super at the top is a sound investment. Doubling your honey production in the following season, and subsequent, more than compensates for the forfeiture, but (now) greed gets in the way.

Walt


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Thanks for getting back to me Walt , if checkerboarding isn't possible in PA , what are my other options , I have two sets of double deeps that were pretty full going into winter and I have a feeling there going to be in swarm mode come spring .


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

If they winter well, you can bet on it. Without drawn comb, your chances of stopping swarming are bleak. Reversal might help, but that's not foolproof either. There is the outside chance that multiple reversals could get you through. When the brood volume reaches peak, reverse. Or, if the cluster is in the upper, reverse when early pollen is coming in. Be careful not to divide the broodnest if the cluster is straddling the joint between boxes. Then reverse at 2 week intervals until the new wax of main flow starts. When they start drawing the comb in the super of foundation, you are home free.

What reversal at two week intervals does is prevent them from backfilling the top box to the point of starting swarm cells. The backfilling is a prerequisite to swarm commit (the starting of swarm cells.)
No guarentees. But if it works, you get more population and surplus honey.

Walt


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Laketrout, even though you may have a short buildup time to swarm season, I would still give Opening the Sides a go.

This is what I would do with a double deep:
As soon as you have a few days of around 15°C/59°F, move 4 outside frames (2 from each box) into a new third box and checkboard them.

The resulting setup might look something like this:

NNHNHNHNHN
HHHNBBBBNH
HHHHNBBNHH

If there is only brood in the top box, then put the 2 new frames in the bottom box underneath the outside brood frames of the 2nd box like this:

NNHNHNHNHN
HNBBBBBBNH
HHNHHHHNHH

N - New frame
B - Frame with brood on it
H - Honey/Pollen/Empty comb

The 4 new frames inserted beside brood (2 in each box) will help to reduce backfilling. As the queen will lay in the new comb as it is being built. Which will help to keep open brood levels high. Open (uncapped) brood helps to suppress swarming. Check their progress after a week if you like. You want the queen to be laying lots of eggs, to keep the open brood levels high! Add new frames beside brood again if you need to.

Also, the bees may see that the filling of the holes in the Broodnest is a higher priority than swarming. As they want a complete Broodnest first.

Come back again in no more than 2-3 weeks and Open the Sides again, checkerboarding another 4 frames into a new 4th box. Yes, a 4th box!  Also, do not use a queen excluder!

This should at least buy you a good amount of time, and it may be enough time to get you through to the main flow. By that time the bees are likely to be more concerned with bringing in nectar than swarming and will have a descent amount of comb to store it in.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Laketrout,
I had the double deep expansion problem this past spring as Walt is describing, it was complicated by a near constant rain and freezing temperatures well into May, swarm preparation in the hives was a constant problem, which led to even more problems when several of the hives swarmed and it was too cold for the new queens to go on successful mating flights which left these hives queenless. I eventually got them queen-right by combining nucs into these hives, if I hadn't had the nucs on hand the problems would have been far worse.

Out of 6 production hives I ended up with 1 gallon of honey but I also ended up with another deep of drawn comb for each hive. I will be going to a three deep system this coming year which will give me the extra drawn comb to checkerboard the hives in the spring, reduce the swarming issues, and give each hive greater numbers for the spring flow.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Are you there Sally? How are you going with all this?


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

I can't believe how confusing I'm making this but I'll give it a try--I don't think this is what you mean but -- I'm taking 2 outside frames from the lower and upper deep and putting them in a new deep with new undrawn foundation on top of the two deeps . So these 4 frames I'm taking out probably won't have anything in them , most of my outer frames go un-touched, so I'm going to still have a new 10 frame deep of new foundation on top , but I will have some new undrawn comb in the 2 original deeps.

I know, its been a ruff day !!!


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

For this to work the new frames should not have a full sheet of foundation, *there must be a hole.* A frame of foundation is not seen as a hole and may be completely ignored. (Foundation is mostly drawn when there is a flow on.) I'm only using starter strips in my new frames. 

The frames that are moved up into a new box should be fully drawn comb, ideally have some capped honey on them, at a minimum have a reasonable amount of nectar. Otherwise it's not Checkerboarding.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

laketrout,
The Spring colony management period can be the most fluid and frustrating time of the year for beekeepers, particularly those going into their first spring with overwintered bees. Walt's reversal suggestions in post #43 sound like the simplest strategy you could take this coming spring. It may not be the best method, however I think it might be the safest and least complicated route you could take at this point in your beekeeping experience. 

There will be opportunities in the future for you to try more complex manipulations as Matthew is describing. It might work out just fine as he describes, but if for some reason it doesn't, you could have a real mess on your hands. Reversing is pretty straightforward with fairly predictable results. Keep it simple.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Sorry, but I just thought of another option.

Since the outside frames are largely untouched. Cut at least a 1" strip of foundation off the bottom of those 4 outside frames. Then insert those frames beside the Broodnest.

Simpler and still likely to develop wax makers.

You could always try it on one hive and reverse the other to compare the difference.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

wcubed said:


> If they winter well, you can bet on it. Without drawn comb, your chances of stopping swarming are bleak. Reversal might help, but that's not foolproof either. There is the outside chance that multiple reversals could get you through. When the brood volume reaches peak, reverse. Or, if the cluster is in the upper, reverse when early pollen is coming in. Be careful not to divide the broodnest if the cluster is straddling the joint between boxes. Then reverse at 2 week intervals until the new wax of main flow starts. When they start drawing the comb in the super of foundation, you are home free.
> 
> What reversal at two week intervals does is prevent them from backfilling the top box to the point of starting swarm cells. The backfilling is a prerequisite to swarm commit (the starting of swarm cells.)
> No guarentees. But if it works, you get more population and surplus honey.
> ...


When you state reversing, are you indicating swapping the top and bottom boxes (bottom goes to top and vise versa). Sorry but I got confused in reading through this thread today. Maybe just too tired to make sense.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Matthew, I want to thank you for taking the time and patience to explain your techniques for swarm management , I'll be reading through this and will try to put it to good use in the spring . I do have the 2 sets of double deeps so I could do some experimenting . 

Mike, I'll be printing this out including Walts instruction on reversal and see what I can come up with , I have a lot of options now I wasn't aware of . Thanks for the help . Great site !!


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Before this thread dies, we might mention the down side of reversing. We implied that it was not a reliable approach, but didn't say why. It has to do with overpopulation causing "overcrowding " swarms. Those swarms are generally issued after the reproductive swarm period - maybe even into early main flow.

The bee's instincts try to maintain population in proportion to cavity size and stores. In the case of reversal, where we deliberately try to avoid backfilling with multiple reversals, extending the oversized brood nest through the swarm prep period, we are generating excess bees. This can lead to late overcrowding swarms and possibly more after-swarms to fine tune the population to cavity size ratio. In some areas of the country, beeks swear by reversing as reliable, but it didn't work well for me here. Note that feral colonies here almost never generate after-swarms - their "math department" (instincts) normally get it right.

In northerly areas, where brood/cluster is in the upper deep, and the lower is basically empty, reversal gives the colony a jump forward in brood volume. They don't have to consume honey in the upper to increase brood volume, and the colony can sometimes fill half the now empty upper in a week. That puts the colony ahead of schedule on swarm preps.

All this to remind the beekeeper who reverses hive bodies, to add enough space to absorb the extra population, or expect overcrowding swarms. Different motivation, but similar results.

Walt


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Matthew,
In all this discussion, and on other threads where you describe your approach, there is no mention of a pollen frame. Here, the frame just outside of the brood on both sides is feed pollen. If it has pollen to the bottom, and the colony has enough population to enfold the bottom edge in the warmed cluster area, there is no harm in placing it above. 5 frames of brood below would have access to the pollen.

The nurse bees need access to feed pollen to supply the protein to older larvae. If it is the pollen frame that is being moved up, wouldn't it be wise to say that in your description with appropriate cautions?

The bees generally grow the nest laterally, frame to frame, until the deep is filled before expanding up across the box joint. You say the added frame is often filled with drone brood. Do they not put any pollen in the added frame? Seems out of character.

Someone earlier mentioned the shook swarm approach, but it didn't get much attention.
An article in the July ABJ by the Traynor husband/wife team treated the subject. Their results were fairly amazing. The colony, ready to swarm, drew a lot of comb in a week. The snag on that approach for the beginner is not having other colonies in which to disperse the frames of brood and stores. I'm still trying to find a way to get more comb drawn in the first year so as to apply CB in the second year. Tough job.

Walt


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Just about all frames that have EVER had brood in them get a good deal of pollen in them. Even old brood frames moved up into a super get pollen stored in them. (I use top entrances, not sure if that has a effect.)

At the time of year I do these manipulations there is a lot of pollen coming in.

Also, all frames in the brood box have had brood in them at one stage. So by default have a good amount of pollen in them. So any frames moved up into a new box, also have pollen on them.

Maybe pollen is an important factor with wax making.

I'll have to think more amount it and get back to you later. It' a busy day!


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Wonderful discussion gentlemen! I wish management would do the sticky thing eventually and move this or flag it for tutorial purpose. Great insights.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Here is a example of a new frame of comb being drawn out:










As you can see it is mainly worker cells and there are several cells already with pollen in them. It's hard to see with the quality of this photo, but it looks like there are a few patches of very young larvae in the middle section. (The cells look cloudy in the bottom and there are groups of bees on them.)

This was a new frame on the edge of the new box that was added on top of an overwintered brood box. It had brood in the frame next to it.

Below is a frame from closer to the middle of the new box. It was one of the first frames drawn out, so it has more drone cells on it.


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