# OTS queen rearing VS grafting. I've got to decide which way to go



## Deepsouth (Feb 21, 2012)

I tried doing OTS a few times just for the fun of it. The bees never would make queen cells where I made the indentation. 
Id say if you want just a few queen cells than take I hive that you like and make it real strong. Take the queen out and let them make there own cells. Then make splits, giving every split a frame with queen cells( you should get multiple frames with queen cell on them.
Basically the same as OTS but I wouldn't waste my time looking for Larva and making the indentation.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

OTS (or making them queenless without the OTS) requires wax foundation or foundationless so you can cut out the cells. Otherwise you'll have to take each frame that has cells and put it in a nuc and get only one queen from it.


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

If I decide to go with the OTS method, my plan was to notch cells in a manner that would encourage the queenless hive to make 3 queen cells on 3 or 4 frames..assuming the larva had been laid in a manner that allows this. I would then use that entire frame, in the splits. This is where i see problems with the OTS method. I have little control over where the queen has laid her eggs. I might only have one or two frames that are the correct age.

I have a few frames floating around with plastic foundation, but I'm almost all foundationless. I have no experience cutting out a queen cell to use in another hive/nuc. I presume the actual removing of the cell is straigh forward, but what then? Is there some standard practice for attaching this cut out queen cell to another frame? If this isn't a noteworthy hurdle, then i don't see any reason to purchase/make more gear for queen rearing via grafting.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I have little control over where the queen has laid her eggs.

And if the bees will choose the ones you did... they might and you have stacked the deck by tearing down the wall, but there are no guarantees that the bees read the same article...


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

kris, if you haven't already seen it click on mike bush's website and find the page about 'a few good queens'.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Deepsouth said:


> I tried doing OTS a few times just for the fun of it. The bees never would make queen cells where I made the indentation.


Yeah me too. No different than no notch at all. New soft wax comb is much easier all around. Which ever method, getting them ready by feeding and concentrating bees before starting makes more of a difference.


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## jbraun (Nov 13, 2013)

KPeacock, I'm going to try OTS notching this year also. I was looking at Michael Palmers web site and noticed that on a fresh frame of brood the queen seemed to start in the middle and lay in patches until she got to the honey band. I'm hoping that will help me with finding the newest eggs. That seems to be the catch. I'm to nervous to try grafting to start out with. I know that I'll lose some queens this way but I'm willing to risk that. 

Good Luck on whatever method you choose.


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

I'm sure I'll probably try both methods at some point. The OTS methods just seemed so gosh darn easy, and requires no additional equipment that i feel almost obligated to try it. After doing a bit more research on introducing queen cells into queenless nucs/queen castles, it seems like MB has the right idea with cutting out cells. I'll try nothing them to influence where they make queen cells, but if they make cells wherever they want, Il'l just cut and use them as I see fit. 

Thanks for the input thus far!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If you use the OTS method & do not cut the cells out you are going to find it something of a mission to get to your dozen queens, cos generally you'll have most of the cells on a few frames.

There is no reason you could not experiment with both methods. Grafting can be practised without any commitment just by taking a suitable frame from a hive and practising removing larvae from it. If you then think you could use this method go ahead and get or make some queen cell cups, set up a queenless cell starter hive and do the graft & put them in. This could be done and the OTS method as well. 

Aim for more queen cells than you want cos you may get less than you planned on, if you are lucky and get more than you need just choose the best, and you can always put more than one queen cell into a nuc as an insurance if one failed to hatch.


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

Thanks for the input, Oldtimer. For clarification, I'd be using 3 or 4 hives to reach my 12+ queens.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

I am going to drive Mike's point once again. Use fresh combs with fresh wax cells on them. Bees will break down the wax and build you nice cells if the cells are not overused from brood rearing. No need to notch or do anything like that, they'll just choose the sisters they like best and raise them. When you cut out queen cells, sacrifice the cell around but make sure that queen's royal jelly in her cell is not exposed. Hungry workers will eat it and tear her cell down. They won't if the cell is intact. I think Mel's method is just fine. You get nice queens out of it if the hive is well populated.


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## Dave360 (Apr 12, 2010)

" , but there are no guarantees that the bees read the same article... 

Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF "

is there any to get them to read the same article that's what we really need get the bees on the same page as us 

but I have used OTS with fair results wax foundation but graft now


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## Josiah Garber (May 22, 2013)

I think OTS is an excellent method. As I see it, the advantage of grafting is it can be a more efficient way to produce laying queens with less resources. 

With OTS (and in walkaway splits) It takes almost a month from initiating the process till you have laying queens in each of your splits.

With grafting you can produce quite a few cells per cell builder, and then cycle queens in your mating nucs every 16 days. Still takes about a month from grafting till you have a laying queen, but you can get quite a few cells out of one cell builder without affecting the production of your main colonies. Then your mating nucs can keep pumping out laying queens every 16 days.

What do you think, am I right about grafting being a more efficient way of producing queens?

I like that in OTS after moving the original queen with brood and stores to a new location, the original hive is left in the same place which means it is very strong (with returning field bees). This is perfect for a cell builder. When your cells are ripe and ready to make splits with, you will also have the resources of the hive in an optimal condition for making splits. Very little open brood, mostly capped brood which means the split has less stress and is more likely to succeed.

On the other hand when you split with already laying queens produced with grafting, your splits immediately have a laying queen.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Josiah Garber said:


> I think OTS is an excellent method. As I see it, the advantage of grafting is it can be a more efficient way to produce laying queens with less resources.
> 
> With OTS (and in walkaway splits) It takes almost a month from initiating the process till you have laying queens in each of your splits.
> 
> ...


In one hive last July I did OTS and added a frame with grafted larvae from the queen I liked very much. Then I made 4 nucs with grafted queens and left OTS queen in the original hive. Then I replaced all queens I did not like or old with those from the graft. It looks like you can do both OTS and grafting. It is just a play for a backyard beekeeper like me
The nice thing about OTS is that one needs no special tools to do that.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Josiah Garber said:


> What do you think, am I right about grafting being a more efficient way of producing queens?


As discussed below, how many queens you need and what is your objective - those are the real questions (not what is better - OTS or grafting).

There are different methods that are suited better for this or that objective and the circumstances.
Define your goal and then pick your method to match your goal the best.

If you enjoy grafting but only have 2 hives - then still graft, BECAUSE you enjoy doing it.
But if you hate grafting, then don't - the efficiency is irrelevant at such a small scale.

If want to be efficient and scalable, then graft.

For example:


> Then your mating nucs can keep pumping out laying queens every 16 days.


If all you have 4-5 hives and need 4-5 replacement queens, what is the need to keep pumping?









Ultimate queen quality Swarm Cell vs Grafting


In a discussion about breeding swarminess it came up that several respected authorities felt that a queen resulting from a swarm cell was the ultimate. Terry Combs and Bob Binnie's name came up. I made this comment that was off topic of swarminess but maybe connected or interesting; I think...




www.beesource.com


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

good original question.
answer "it depends"
How many queens you need
can you graft
do you have mating NUCs
When do you need queens

not really a one size fits all answer.

Also consider the Miller method and the Alley method.

some many ways, so little time.

do what works for you, if it does not scale then try grafting.

GG


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> good original question.
> answer "it depends"
> How many queens you need
> can you graft
> ...


I think OTS is great for backyard beekeepers. You can get 3 new hives from 1, a brood break kills varroa mites and new mutt queens are becoming local mutts likely to survive next winter.... From my experience my OTS queens are better than purchased or package queens.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Gray Goose said:


> good original question.
> answer "it depends"
> How many queens you need
> can you graft
> ...


Here is what you need to do the miller method (and others) The bees take care of most of the details compared to successful grafting. Just put one or more tabs of worker foundation in a frame and the bees will draw out some nice comb and make queens that are easy to separate off, compared to OTS. As GG says lots of all depends, and choices


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Like others, I couldn’t get the bees to follow my lead. In fact, more than once they completely repaired my scrapes. After the first time I left details written on the frame just to make sure. Next time, they again repaired mine and made different QCs.

A few things I’ll throw in:

You can make a strong queenless split and if you time it right you can catch virgin queens before they harden up and destroy each other. Timing this to fall on a weekend is still probably the most fun I’ve had beekeeping. Go out every hour or two, look for new trap doors to be open on the bottom of cells, snatch up a queen or two. This method is for nothing if the workers take a vote and tear rivals down early. It also presupposes you have a frame or two of bees to make into mating nucs. 


Try grafting in a deep over a queen excluder (queen in bottom). Pull a frame or two of brood and pollen into the top of a double deep a few inches past where he queen has influence. In a queenright hive, and within times where there’s a flow (or feed), they will usually start and finish a few grafts. This works better in May/June here. This method costs almost nothing (grafting frame, cups, grafting tool), will get your feet wet grafting, and if you have 3-4 hives this can be used while you try these other methods


As an extension to #1, I made some small push-in cages from #8 (1/8”) hardware cloth last year after seeing a couple of videos. Make a hive queenless, go back in 5-6 days after cells are capped and put push-in cage over each cell (or group if they’re too close together) . Keep up with the time and go back at your leisure (after work etc.), pop up the cage and collect each queen. This probably only works with plastic foundations as they can/will burrow under foundation-less. It’s a simple way to get 5-6 queens from 1 start without having to babysit them or graft.
Hope this helps. Lots of ppl on here have likely forgotten more than I know about the process(es), but thought I’d throw these in the stack.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Like others, I couldn’t get the bees to follow my lead. In fact, more than once they completely repaired my scrapes. After the first time I left details written on the frame just to make sure. Next time, they again repaired mine and made different QCs.
> 
> A few things I’ll throw in:
> 
> ...


I think OTS, grafting and every other method get easy after you practice couple times. Just do it and finally you will get good queens.


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

crofter said:


> Here is what you need to do the miller method (and others) The bees take care of most of the details compared to successful grafting. Just put one or more tabs of worker foundation in a frame and the bees will draw out some nice comb and make queens that are easy to separate off, compared to OTS. As GG says lots of all depends, and choices


This method, as shown in the image, is what blind Gino here likes to do. That is to say, insert a empty foundationless comb into the brood nest for the bees to draw out. The problem with it is that they often will build drone comb, and it is difficult to know the exact age of the queen cells produced. So unlike grafting, the keeper can only guess at queen larvae edge. So it might take longer, but the cells are easy to cut from the new comb, and when successful can produce high quality cells with little effort.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Gino45 said:


> This method, as shown in the image, is what blind Gino here likes to do. That is to say, insert a empty foundationless comb into the brood nest for the bees to draw out. The problem with it is that they often will build drone comb, and it is difficult to know the exact age of the queen cells produced. So unlike grafting, the keeper can only guess at queen larvae edge. So it might take longer, but the cells are easy to cut from the new comb, and when successful can produce high quality cells with little effort.


Hi Gino,
so in the frame use q 1/2 or 1/3 pieces of "thin surplus" basically worker foundation, thinner than brood and no wires.
Some what like a starter strip, but longer.
they then often do the rest of the frame drone.
you can then cut in the starter strip area and get Fertilized eggs to work with.
Also a "medium" foundation in a deep frame works.

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> Here is what you need to do the miller method (and others) The bees take care of most of the details compared to successful grafting. Just put one or more tabs of worker foundation in a frame and the bees will draw out some nice comb and make queens that are easy to separate off, compared to OTS. As GG says lots of all depends, and choices


nice frame, did you make that one?
looks like the edges are drone so some cutting is going to expose the worker eggs.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> Just put one or more tabs of worker foundation in a frame and the bees will draw out some nice comb and make queens that are easy to separate off, compared to OTS


This entire "OTS" thing came out of the plastic foundation usage - hence all the gymnastics and the spacial notching magic (because one can not easily separate a QC from the plastic base - you have to use the entire frame as the "queen-cell base").

Once you go foundation-less - it turns out no magical notching is needed.
You just take the cells as you see fit.

Really, OTS is nothing but a variation of emergency queen raising.
Nothing more - but sounds "sexy".
But people get all excited as if something revolutionary new has been proposed. 

PS: with the understanding that the grafting is also another variation of emergency queen raising - nothing more (just better suited for industrial scaling).


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Gray Goose said:


> nice frame, did you make that one?
> looks like the edges are drone so some cutting is going to expose the worker eggs.
> 
> GG


Yes, that is one of my frames. Those were triangular tabs of wax foundation fastened to the top bar. It may have been small cell. On your prompting, and looking at the picture now, I question whether that is indeed drone size cells around the edges or just their preferred size of worker cells; definitely a transition! If I remember, I had other queen cells got started before I got around to using this frame and it just got finished out and is in a colony somewhere.

I made a timing cage so I could get comb drawn with the queen excluded then put her in to get even aged larvae for grafting. Nother entertaining effort that may never get used. Lots of simpler ways to get things done if you only need a few queens


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GregB said:


> This entire "OTS" thing came out of the plastic foundation usage - hence all the gymnastics and the spacial notching magic (because one can not easily separate a QC from the plastic base - you have to use the entire frame as the "queen-cell base").
> 
> Once you go foundation-less - it turns out no magical notching is needed.
> You just take the cells as you see fit.
> ...


I do believe that with grafting you CAN get cells built upon younger aged larvae. Simply making a colony queenless will result commonly of cells being commenced on closer to 2 or 3 day old larvae in the bees urge to get a queen as quickly as possible. Perhaps the same thing is possibly partially under the control of the person notching. I have only done a few selections that way. I remember watching some video in Russian I presume where the fellow was actually breaking down the lower cell wall that would result in that youngest of larvae being accepted. I have also seen video where the beekeeper was quite proud of his expediency by notching with the broad end of his hive tool and calling it good.

With a little bit of forethought and delicacy you dont HAVE to settle for brute strength and awkwardness results.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> Simply making a colony queenless will result commonly of cells being commenced on closer to 2 or 3 day old larvae in the bees urge to get a queen as quickly as possible.


This is argued both ways per my readings.
Not that I care - still boils down to hacking the natural process however you slice it and and sell it to others (grafting, OTS, Miller, etc).
Whatever, I guess.

Currently I am intrigued by the idea of the controlled swarm cell forcing.
If a consistent and predictable process figured out, what else is there to be desired for a hobbyist?
@GrayGoose is just one example of doing it - this does not need to be a chaotic and unpredictable and hard-to-manage project (how the swarming is traditionally presented).
We have all the tools already.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregB said:


> Currently I am intrigued by the idea of the controlled swarm cell forcing.
> If a consistent and predictable process figured out, what else is there to be desired for a hobbyist?
> @GrayGoose is just one example of doing it - this does not need to be a chaotic and unpredictable and hard-to-manage project (how the swarming is traditionally presented).
> We have all the tools already.


give it a try.
A 5X5 lang set up would certainly get crowed fairly fast.

IMO the OST was done to get past the cocoons, and open a larvae/egg for a QC to be built.
If your whitest comb has 10 cells and none on other frames then you need to exacto your way out of that.
If you notch 3 frames and get cells on 3 different frames a 1 for 3 split gets easier.
the notch is easier than the exacto, certainly plastic makes the exacto harder but not impossible.

the miller method is good if I want to get 10 queens out of 1 hive. can do a frame , pull and inset the next.
if I just need any extra queens then a swarm or walk away works.

so it somewhat depends on how many and from which hive. grafting can be 100's from 1 mother.

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GregB said:


> *This is argued both ways per my readings.*
> _*Whatever, I guess.*_
> 
> *Currently I am intrigued by the idea of controlled swarm cell forcing.*
> ...


Greg, I gathered as much! I hope you are aware of the effects of confirmation bias!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> Greg, I gathered as much! I hope you are aware of the effects of confirmation bias!


Swarm cell are the best.
Is this a confirmation bias too? 
Surely the queen sellers will prove me wrong and show all kinds of data to prove it too. LOL

Granted, even swarm cells are best to be raised in the optimal environment, not in a tiny mating nuc.
Goes without saying.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregB said:


> Swarm cell are the best.
> Is this a confirmation bias too?
> Surely the queen sellers will prove me wrong and show all kinds of data to prove it too. LOL


do it for the challenge and fun, not to compare to some grafted stuffs.

Frank you ever consider stand up..

GG


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

This has in my opinion great info about myths: https://wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/web-Simple-Methods-of-Making-Increase-2nd-edition.pdf


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> do it for the challenge and fun, not to compare to some grafted stuffs.
> ............
> GG


I am already itching!
Always looking out for a good project. LOL
I think it is a worthwhile project.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregB said:


> I am already itching!
> Always looking out for a good project. LOL
> I think it is a worthwhile project.


well we can both do this and take pics

GG


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Another thing to explore: http://www.louthbeekeeping.com/uploads/6/4/9/7/64974071/morris-board-v3.pdf


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> well we can both do this and take pics
> 
> GG


We should GG.
I should have plenty of bees to play with - for a change.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I imagine there would be some room in there for confirmation bias! Putting it to a completely objective test with air tight controls and of sufficient size and duration would be no simple test. It is easy to suggest reasons for complicity on the part of invested queen rearing concerns. The could easily be motivated to fudge the outcome as could the parties already convinced of the outcome. I dont know the definite answer but the obvious one is just too obvious, and appealing to common sense and all. We have been caught in that one too many times. It would have to be done like porcupines do it; very, very carefully!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jtgoral said:


> This has in my opinion great info about myths: https://wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/web-Simple-Methods-of-Making-Increase-2nd-edition.pdf


I have seen this and even have a PDF copy.

Though it says - "Why *not *wait until a colony sets up to swarm?"
I want to try the exact opposite.
Breeding for "swarmy bees" he says?
Meh.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

jtgoral said:


> Another thing to explore: http://www.louthbeekeeping.com/uploads/6/4/9/7/64974071/morris-board-v3.pdf


 Look up Horsley board and Cloake board too. Different ways of skinning the same cat.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> It would have to be done *like porcupines do it;* very, very carefully!



LOL


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> I imagine there would be some room in there for confirmation bias! Putting it to a completely objective test with air tight controls and of sufficient size and duration would be no simple test. It is easy to suggest reasons for complicity on the part of invested queen rearing concerns. The could easily be motivated to fudge the outcome as could the parties already convinced of the outcome. I dont know the definite answer but the obvious one is just too obvious, and appealing to common sense and all. We have been caught in that one too many times. It would have to be done like porcupines do it; very, very carefully!


+1 
easy to fudge
feed one 
starve the other
look here this one is bigger.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

crofter said:


> Look up Horsley board and Cloake board too. Different ways of skinning the same cat.


I've built Snelgrove and Morris boards for myself  and have good experience with Morris. But the best experience is with OTS...


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Bringing in Buckfast genetics to supposedly cut down on swarming propensity is a drawing card. If swarming is almost a given with your bees and management you might as well take advantage of it and make it a part of your queen rearing program. Those queens do come well recommended. The spin offs and potential bad PR for me, makes it a no go!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

jtgoral said:


> I've built Snelgrove and Morris boards for myself  and have good experience with Morris. But the best experience is with OTS...





jtgoral said:


> I've built Snelgrove and Morris boards for myself  and have good experience with Morris. But the best experience is with OTS...


Greg and GG want to compare sizes of yours and their's (Queens, that is)


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## Gino45 (Apr 6, 2012)

GregB said:


> Swarm cell are the best.
> Is this a confirmation bias too?
> Surely the queen sellers will prove me wrong and show all kinds of data to prove it too. LOL
> 
> ...


I've always thought that the idea is to raise cells from bees that are genetically slow to swarm. Therefore, the swarm cell concept, though it makes beautiful cells, is flawed if low swarming genetics is a goal.
Doing the comb Miller style, if that's what it is, can make beautiful cells as well. From what I've observed, given the Miller comb, the queenless bees will often wait a couple of days until new eggs have hatched and are just the right age. They tend not to rush into 'queen rearing' as they must when given grafted cells as their only choice. Thus I'm not buying the idea that swarm cells are superior; however, I do agree that they may be superior to many grafted cells as those may have been less than perfectly fed from the beginning.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> Bringing in Buckfast genetics to supposedly cut down on swarming propensity is a drawing card.


I think this entire talk of "breeding" while being a small scale is ..... over-rated.
I have been "breeding" the resistant bees how long now? .....
Not much to show for this "breeding".
Same for most any small-scale "breeding" projects - just irrelevant talks.
Not worried of breeding "swarmy" bees even a single bit.

Controlled swarming push is rather how quickly one can push them into swarming.
But most any bee can be pushed into it.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Gino45 said:


> I've always thought that the idea is to raise cells from bees that are genetically slow to swarm. Therefore, the swarm cell concept, though it makes beautiful cells, is flawed if low swarming genetics is a goal.


IMO not true, when doing forced swarm.

Also IF we ever get to bees that will not swarm, they are doomed.
swarming is reproductive impulse, every species that is still here has this.

size and quality has more to do the current bloom OR feed ,,and number of bees.
"well fed" from every aspect. quality , quantity , timing, to the point of some left over when the queen hatches.

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I


GregB said:


> I think this entire talk of "breeding" while being a small scale is ..... over-rated.
> I have been "breeding" the resistant bees how long now? .....
> Not much to show for this "breeding".
> Same for most any small-scale "breeding" projects - just irrelevant talks.


Have to agree with that Greg; for the most part entertainment. I have been pleased to have very gentle, Carni based bees from the start, in an area with virtually no other bees in flying range. I brought in a few of those same bees (Szabo Queens) from time to time so I did not get spotty brood from inbreeding. I did get a pair of nucs with Chilean queens after my European Foulbrood disaster but requeened them same summer. I seemed to be drifting toward some Italian habits from somewhere last few years so brought in a few Buckfast from Fergusons. They are shirtsleeve bees too unless shaking them off pulling honey supers. Have no dreams of developing mite fighting. The breeders are working on that and all I have to do is stay ahead of any local dilution. There are several more local people getting onto the beekeeping bandwagon and fall in drift of mites from somwhere is becomeing a bit of an issue last few years.

It is all fun and I dont depend on it to get the rent money together!


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

crofter said:


> Greg and GG want to compare sizes of yours and their's (Queens, that is)


Do you know a good source for the bee queen caliper? We should use scientific way to compare the sizes...


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregB said:


> I think this entire talk of "breeding" while being a small scale is ..... over-rated.
> I have been "breeding" the resistant bees how long now? .....
> ...


As the OTS guru says: Who is the daddy?

I do not breed, I rise... And the 2nd, 3rd, ... generation looks the same no matter who the Grandma was.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The Olympics judges will soon be looking for their next gig! They are supposed to be the epitome of impartiality.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> It is all fun and I dont depend on it to get the rent money together!


I am grateful that my beek efforts are largely academic, and I'm playing fast and loose with the term. 

I was thinking out loud a few days about the possibility of overwintering maybe 100 nucs, just to have the farmer, "paid in 1 lump" benefit. But any way I stretch the math, the hourly rate is still significantly below minimum wage. 

And that's not even considering the capital investment the prior year.


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## schmidtmj1 (Jul 22, 2021)

GregB said:


> Swarm cell are the best.
> Is this a confirmation bias too?
> Surely the queen sellers will prove me wrong and show all kinds of data to prove it too. LOL
> 
> ...



Apparently there has been some recent research on the subject of which "types" of queens are better - and if I read it correctly, it says that swarm queens are no better.



https://ag.umass.edu/sites/ag.umass.edu/files/pdf-doc-ppt/queen_factsheet-final_2.pdf



Not my opinion, but interesting.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

schmidtmj1 said:


> Apparently thewre has been some recent research on the subject of whih "types" of queens are better - and if I read correctly, it says that swarm queens are no better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That paper was already posted here.
It does not deal with the swarm queens at all.
(if want to correct me - point at what I am missing).


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

schmidtmj1 said:


> Apparently thewre has been some recent research on the subject of whih "types" of queens are better - and if I read correctly, it says that swarm queens are no better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


out of the gate I would Say BS to any study "claiming" swarm queens are poor
the bees have been doing it this way for 200 million years, grafting, 200 years.

not sure you read it correct I did not see swarm queen compared.

I see 10 day graft, 2 day graft and walk away, which neither of the 3 is swarm queen.

GG


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## schmidtmj1 (Jul 22, 2021)

GregB said:


> That paper was already posted here.
> It does not deal with the swarm queens at all.
> (if want to correct me - point at what I am missing).


 My apologies. Not only did I miss the previous posting, but I also remembered the paper poorly. (I re-read it). Thanks for pointing this out. I appreciate your posts, BTW.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

schmidtmj1 said:


> My apologies. Not only did I miss the previous posting, but I also remembered the paper poorly. (I re-read it). Thanks for pointing this out. I appreciate your posts, BTW.


no worries
we all try to get it right most of the time, and folks help to get the rest straight.

the walk away BTW is an "emergency" Queen
the 3 types are
Emergency Oops we bee queenless but we have eggs/young larvae
Swarm lets procreate
Supercedure we are done with this old gal and want a new one.

GG


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