# German Bees? Help!



## Holly1969 (Apr 28, 2015)

I have a hive that has been producing black bees for the last month. When I first installed the package they looked like your typical mutt honey bee. These come from Wolf Creek Apiaries in TN and have some wild feral stock of the Duck River Basin, Russian genetics, Italian and Carniolan genetics. What the heck are these...? There temperament is more defensive then the other hives and they are more hygienic. The hive has exploded but it is not a relaxing experience to work this hive.. Does anyone have input or experience with something like this?? :kn:


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

I few hives with local survivor stock queens. They tend to be more defensive, especially during the dearth. That being said they are hardy and produce well. So I tolerate them and just use additional PPE.


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## LeifLiberty (Sep 23, 2014)

Do they behave normally? Are you sure you are not seeing Chronic Bee Paralysis Virus (CBPV)?


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## gezellig (Jun 11, 2014)

I'm in Tennessee, and have a feral hive of those close to me somewhere. I see them in my yard and attempting to rob my hives. I would call them more aggressive than defensive. They are bad at attempting to rob.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

I want a queen from that hive. they look awesome.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

They look sick to me.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Sorry Holly not German Black bee. German Blacks are black with thin brown stripes. I don't live to far from John who's the owner of Wolf Creek Bees. I don't know about defensive I've been over his house quite a few time queen yard is on the left side of the driveway don't have any bees bothering me there or anymore than they do in one of the local parks. I've been around his bees for years have never been stung while visiting and take some of my grandchildren with me. John does have some of the calmest bees I've ever been around. By the way good luck getting pictures of a real German Black bee they are awfully skiddish pretty runny on the comb.


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

Slow Drone said:


> Sorry Holly not German Black bee. German Blacks are black with thin brown stripes.


There are three main subspecies of AMM (Apis Mellifera Mellifera) - commonly referred to as the German Black Bee: Mellifera, which is a brown bee still to be found in isolated areas of Poland and Belgium; Lehzeni, which is the heathland bee, stocks of which have survived in Norway; and ***** which, as it's name suggests is a black bee, stocks of which can still be found in some Alpine regions.

I currently hold two of these strains, the breeder queens of which were imported from Ireland, where purity is being maintained by AMM enthusiasts: a Galtee (which is Black, similar to Carnica, but with very thin stripes), and a Pat Deasy strain which is Dark Brown.

Pure (or largely pure) strains of AMM are fairly docile and very easy to handle, whereas AMM-based mongrels are most certainly not.

LJ


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## Pooh Bear (Jun 19, 2015)

Little-John: I originally come from Ireland and have recently gotten into beekeeping here in NY. I would love to get my hands on a Galtee Queen if at all possible. I have one hive doing really well and a spare (empty) hive from which to start a new one. PB


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

The shiny bee looks like a bee that has spent the last part of her life robbing nearby hives. Hairless bees can often be a sign of robbing.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

They look nice to me... but I don't have to work with them.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Some bees are airless. Looks like a carni mutt to me.
Nothing wrong.


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## Holly1969 (Apr 28, 2015)

Hi Slow Drone, these bees are from John... I set them back April 27th and noticed in the last few weeks the hive is not as calm as the other packages and they are black like seen in the picture and much larger then the striped bees. The hive is exploding and I am not as at ease working with these as I am with the other hives.. They fly in front of your face persistently like little drones, the behavior is much different than the other bees.. I have only seen them in the stronger hive and not entering the other 2 hives and one is weak.. I would just like to know what are they?


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

What color is the queen? What are you using to smoke them with? Are the drones very dark with a blue metallic sheen? His bee can be more defensive when in supercedure at times. John is very particular when it comes to queens he does not like dark, black, or black butted queens he knows I do and calls me when he gets one or more rather then culling them. Most have been very gentle but I do get the occasional bipolars ( calm in the spring defensive during supercedure or dearth ). I use only pine needles to smoke them unless they are extremely defensive then I switch to staghorn sumac for a smoker fuel it makes a big difference. I would also consider doing a mite count. Are you seeing any DWV?


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## Holly1969 (Apr 28, 2015)

Here is a video I posted on You-Tube of one of these bees.. This one has more hair Astrobee...


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## Holly1969 (Apr 28, 2015)

I have not seen the queen since I set her and she was a light brown.. Have not seen her since that day. When things cool off up here I am going to go though the hive with a fine tooth comb..


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## Holly1969 (Apr 28, 2015)

I use straw or the purchased smoker fuel and leaves if my smoker starts to run out.. This hive was more on the agitated side from the start but not as bad as they are now.. Have not seen any issues.. but it is thriving!


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## Holly1969 (Apr 28, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> They look nice to me... but I don't have to work with them.


They are cool looking and larger than the original 4.9 ers.. You do not get that warm and fuzzy feeling when you work the hive its much more tense.. These are interesting, I've watched them clean the other bees.. Sometimes a few will hang out on the top cover.. their behavior is not your typical bee


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Are you running foundationless or small cell foundation? Are some of the bees black with thin grey stripes if so I might know what the problem is. The grey stripes should be a very light grey battleship grey or lighter.


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## Holly1969 (Apr 28, 2015)

Here's a couple more pictures... :kn:


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## Holly1969 (Apr 28, 2015)

They go from typical looking carni / Italian bees to more of a black and some yellow to all black.. not really gray stripe.. and there are some with brown and black.. The drones some have a greenish sheen.


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## Holly1969 (Apr 28, 2015)

Starter strips about 2 inches with 4.9 wax I have used


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> They look sick to me.


Agreed


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

The wings of the bee in the first pic have been chewed on.


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## BeeGora (Oct 22, 2013)

gezellig said:


> I'm in Tennessee, and have a feral hive of those close to me somewhere. I see them in my yard and attempting to rob my hives. I would call them more aggressive than defensive. They are bad at attempting to rob.


If they're bad at attempting to rob your hives then you don't have anything to worry about. :lpf:


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## Holly1969 (Apr 28, 2015)

BeeGora said:


> If they're bad at attempting to rob your hives then you don't have anything to worry about. :lpf:


Have not seen them in the other hives.. Just the one that is growing faster than all the rest.. "
The bigger they are the harder they fall"


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

With starter strips they still draw natural cells. If you measure the cells I suspect they are 5.1 to 5.2 which really isn't an issue. I suspect there is some caucasian in them. Caucasians usually mix well with other breeds but when they don't they are really defensive and will follow you a long distance and aren't easy to calm down when agitated. Can't say where the Caucasian is coming from other then and yes at times you will see a lot of solid black bees.


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## Holly1969 (Apr 28, 2015)

Ill take a closer look at the comb size this week.. The bees that are striped are much smaller, the black ones are much larger in size.. That would explain the slow build up in the spring the last month they exploded like mad.. And some of their agitated behavior.. Although they have not gone nuts with the propolis yet..


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

You'll notice a lot more propolis further into a dearth and closer to fall.


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## BillS (Feb 2, 2005)

Holly
I just found this thread. I am just over the hill from you by Marta Clara. I have gotten a couple of swarms of dark bees, They were kind of jumpy and grumpy. But they were productive. After they were well established I killed the queen and let them requeen themselves.
It worked out good. Their genes were miixed with my russians and what ever local drones were about and it seemed to make a better mix. If you ever have a problem you want help with or just another pair of eyes pm me. I'm close by and would be glad to help.
Bill S


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## BillS (Feb 2, 2005)

Holly
I just found this thread. I am just over the hill from you by Marta Clara. I have gotten a couple of swarms of dark bees, They were kind of jumpy and grumpy. But they were productive. After they were well established I killed the queen and let them requeen themselves.
It worked out good. Their genes were miixed with my russians and what ever local drones were about and it seemed to make a better mix. If you ever have a problem you want help with or just another pair of eyes pm me. I'm close by and would be glad to help.
Bill S


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## franktrujillo (Jan 22, 2009)

That honey bee is part of my apiary they winter over well and out in cooler temps.since i open mate there part of my apiary little more defensive but in time it will work itself out.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

I had a very aggressive hive with dark bees and if I had to do it again I may have just not touched them until early spring. When I tried to re queen them they went hay wire and it was a nightmare. Mine were too aggressive to keep close to any neighbors. It was a game changer for me. I ended up moving my bees. Hopefully yours are not that aggressive. I still see some of the dark bees in my bees but I haven't had a problem with aggression since that queen is gone. There were all black bees in mine like in your picture. Mine were always in a clump at the entrance but not from heat. There were just hundreds of bees ready to pounce. They were very particular defensive bees and would follow me to my house and hit the glass on the windows on my house. It was very unpleasant. It made me understand when people talked about not wanting to work bees that were aggressive. This was them.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

AstroBee said:


> The shiny bee looks like a bee that has spent the last part of her life robbing nearby hives. Hairless bees can often be a sign of robbing.


Agreed, no beerace is without hairs like the bee in picture. Black bee, that is _Apis mellifera mellifera _, has particular long hairing, which helps in severe winter conditions

particulary


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## herbhome (Oct 18, 2015)

Holly,

I also have Wolf creek bees. Early on I noticed some solid black bees emerging but not so many now. The queens are bred in the wild and likely bred to some feral germans. I haven't noticed them be any more aggressive though. They tend to do some headbutting when they get stirred up though.


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