# U.S./Canadian honeybee open border issues



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

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Ian said:


> what beekeeper need up here in Canada is access to relatively priced replacement stock


I agree Ian. Down here getting your losses replaced is relatively easy if you are willing to get set up in the south. Doing it in a northern climate takes a bit more skill and a little luck.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

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The beekeeping model many of you American beekeeper really interest me. Your logistics must be a nightmare but the advantage of skipping the cold and allowing them to settle in a warmer climate, to which gives you a jump start on spring is a huge advantage.
not to mention the potential revenue earned from pollination


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

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Ian said:


> what beekeeper need up here in Canada is access to relatively priced replacement stock


Ian,
If we had access, there would be more competition. We'd revert back to calcium cyanide in the fall. Anyone could do it. I don't know weather I would laugh or cry if the border opened to packages.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

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Ian, you seem to be doing pretty well from where I'm standing. You have all your bees to hand. You are not dependent on the vagaries of other people's weather. You don't have to leave your wife and kids to go split in the south. Not to mention you only lost 15% on an operation your size with no help that I can see over the winter. Of course, there were a few posts you made that made me wonder if the prairie wind was getting to you...


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

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Ian:

Open up the border, and you can get yourself a nice spread on the Gulf Coast.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

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Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Ian, you seem to be doing pretty well from where I'm standing. You have all your bees to hand. You are not dependent on the vagaries of other people's weather. You don't have to leave your wife and kids to go split in the south.


Yes, I totally get this. After years spent living out of cheap motel rooms, I made an investment on a second home. Best money I have ever spent. We have family and friends that love to come down and enjoy the beautiful east Texas spring weather, some even help out (right Rob Renneker?). A round trip flight can be had to the Shreveport airport (just 40 minutes away) from most any airport up north for around $300. Let me tell you, there is no comparison in our bee quality since we made the decision to raise all of our own bees and queens in the south compared to the old days on the package treadmill. We started out raising enough cells for our own use and now raise and sell to lots of other folks as well, of course there are always some bumps in the road along the way, just threw away over 1,000 nice cells and had a guy back out on another few hundred, oh well I just chalk it up as part of the cost of doing business. Que sera sera.


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## dback (Jan 8, 2012)

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jim lyon said:


> just threw away over 1,000 nice cells and had a guy back out on another few hundred, oh well I just chalk it up as part of the cost of doing business. Que sera sera.


"Better to have and not need then to need and not have"


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

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dback said:


> "Better to have and not need then to need and not have"


Exactly, there was such a severe shortage of cells in east Texas for weeks that we grafted longer than what we had either need or orders for. Apparently everyone else did what we did and the shortage turned to a surplus within days. It was our call, sometimes it works out , sometimes it doesn't.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

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Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Ian, you seem to be doing pretty well from where I'm standing. You have all your bees to hand. You are not dependent on the vagaries of other people's weather. You don't have to leave your wife and kids to go split in the south. Not to mention you only lost 15% on an operation your size with no help that I can see over the winter.





jim lyon said:


> Let me tell you, there is no comparison in our bee quality since we made the decision to raise all of our own bees and queens in the south compared to the old days on the package treadmill. We started out raising enough cells



If there is anything you should be gleaning from this exchange between beekeepers is that you must be aware of the conditions to which your going to be beekeeping in, and then manage the conditions appropriately. The other guys beekeeping management model will not necessarily translate and fit into your operation. 
Jim has the opportunity to head south for the winter and has developed a very successful beekeeping model. Huge sacrifice has been made to make this work but if you read closely to what Jim types on beesource here, he has turned that sacrifice into further opportunity. 
For me, my circumstances are much different, so I have had to adapt to the conditions at hand. I brought in some intensive management practices and built facilities to manage that risk. And as Adrian has pointed out, even through the challenges, I have been able to achieve all my production targets. 
The guys that are not able to accept change, or adjust management practices as new challenges arise ( because new ones arise every year ) are the beekeepers that seem to be struggling and in some cases are the ones who allow bad luck to bankrupt the business. Keep it real, keep that revenue coming in!

For a beekeeper managing conditions like me, that so called "package treadmill" is actually called that "package lifeline". Totally different looks on the business models because both business models are completely different.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

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WLC said:


> Ian:
> 
> Open up the border, and you can get yourself a nice spread on the Gulf Coast.


It would turn the economics up in Canada on its head. If I continued on beekeeping I would go back to packaged bees every spring. Likely those selling nucs in Canada wouldn't have a market anymore. So there would be more beekeepers chasing pollination, and more chasing honey. There would also be less reason for an Integrated Pest Management Program. There would be less barriers to entry for new competitors. Possibly lower honey prices on both sides of the border. I don't think it would be such a good idea from a Canadian standpoint. I can see why the decision was made to keep it closed as a protectionist measure.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

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JodieToadie said:


> It would turn the economics up in Canada on its head.


Don't confuse the open boarder issue between the package issue and bees on comb issue. You do understand that there is already packages flowing into the country from New Zealand and Australia? How about packages also from California? 
What exactly would the difference be other than more availability to bee stock? Queens already flow from many producers that operate in California.

By allowing package bees from California, more stock will be available possibly at $50 per package less and a pound of bees more than what comes from NZ now.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

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I would think it's both packages and productivity (bees on comb).

Summers with very long daylight hours in the north; Winters with short broodless periods in the south.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

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I don't mind paying 50$ more to keep it the way it is. If more bees were available the seed companies would just pay less pollination fees so it would be a wash.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

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Haraga, do you see the issue the same way with US imported queens? same thing, more queens available at opportune times promotes more colony numbers. Im sure you take advantage of import queens as I do.
I don't see the disadvantage to the industry by having cheaper available packages. More beekeepers will be able to recover from die outs quicker, and will be able to maintain hive numbers more effectively. Right now a two pound package from NZ runs $170. I dont see a flood of new beekeepers because of $125 packages. 
Now if that was a three pound $50-$75 package, I would buy that argument.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

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Ian, what do you think the price for a US package would be if the border opened to packages, in $CND, given the increased demand and the protocols that I suspect that would need to be followed. As with US queens, I suspect there might well be few producers that wanted the hassles of selling to Canada unless the premium was worth it.

When the border opened to queens we were able to have a supply of more dependable. higher quality queens than the late season down under queens, but the price was not appreciable different. Packages might well turn out very similar.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

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Ian and Allan I understand where both of you are coming from. All I can say is I don't mind it the way it is.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

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Haraga, you misunderstood my position. I am happy with the way things are as well. 

I'm concerned that opening the border may well be a case of "the medicine being worse than the disease."

I haven't bought bees for 10 years, have increased in size and normally have surplus bees. Economically, I would probably loose with an open border. However, I would never want to come across as smug about winter survival. Beekeeping has a way of keeping you humble.

As I stated before, I am not convinced there would be a great discount in prices and maybe not even supply.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

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Ian said:


> Right now a two pound package from NZ runs $170. I dont see a flood of new beekeepers because of $125 packages.
> Now if that was a three pound $50-$75 package, I would buy that argument.


I can buy a package for 90 bucks if I were in the US. If you could get your hands on that same package, why would you even try to overwinter? Why would you medicate? Why would you buy Canadian nucs? Why would you feed? 
I am not playing the fool. Just simply looking at both sides of the equation. When would it stop making sense to overwinter? At that point, what are the barriers of entry to anyone keeping bees on a commercial scale? 
Granted you would need less labor and for shorter periods. You could also keep bees one year and not the next. There are advantages to running a package operation. I am simply looking at the big picture. The outcome of cheap packages may not be what you actually desire, and we all acknowledge that really cheap packages would be destructive to our market. Heck, I've seen whole hives for sale coming out of almonds for $150. Providing they are 2 supers full as advertised, I could pay the keeper to shake 4X 2-3lb packages plus 3 queens. We would be getting close to the $50 range (Before delivery.) I think it could be done for $75.

The importation protocols would fall quickly as SHB and resistant varroa, resistant AFB arrive. Africanized hives would probably take care of themselves geographically.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

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Allan I agree with you.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

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Actually simpler than that, I forgot about the 4lb package with 2x queens. So I see it at around $100 plus the extra queen. I think if I was purchasing say 500 packages with 2x queens I could get them for $120 each. I am pretty sure I could get that load to Manitoba for $10,000. So I have replaced 1000 hives for $70,000 bucks. 
I now have the advantage of stripping every last bit of honey out of every hive in fall. Say 20lbs extra from each hive. At current prices that is an extra $40 bucks. 
I now have a very small spring feed bill. I have no wintering costs. Little to no medication costs. Say conservatively those add up to $65 bucks. 

Someone from the outside looking in could assume that if you make 140lbs of honey in a given year that all equipment except building and vehicle are paid for after year one. Recurring costs are only $70,000 per year to replace bees after that. Plus minor expenses. I think the competition would be fierce and many neighbors would become beekeepers. Every Mennonite, Hutterite, farmer looking for a change, opportunist.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

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Bingo Jodie. I don't need the neighbors being beekeepers.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

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JodieToadie said:


> Heck, I've seen whole hives for sale coming out of almonds for $150. Providing they are 2 supers full as advertised, I could pay the keeper to shake 4X 2-3lb packages plus 3 queens. We would be getting close to the $50 range (Before delivery.) I think it could be done for $75.


If you would take them beginning of March but even so, almond shook bees would never pass CFIA's requirements. It would be designated package operations, Oliveraz come to mind, already set up as package producers, control over their own hives over their own acres


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

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Allen Martens said:


> Ian, what do you think the price for a US package would be if the border opened to packages, in $CND,


Its about having the network in place to be able to react to terrible situations that are completely out of our control.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

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Allen Martens said:


> Ian, what do you think the price for a US package would be if the border opened to packages, in $CND,


Ignoring demand issues for the moment, not hard to pin a number on this. I'll use number regularly quoted here on beesource, at retail level.

90 US dollars for a package, will turn into 99 Canadian dollars after exchange. Hard to estimate slippage accurately, but, it's a long trip that'll be done via ground, so there's going to be slippage enroute, guessing at 5% overall. That makes the package $104. The border itself will introduce some cost, inspection and likely a requirement for them to be treated for various diseases prior to crossing. That's going to bring the price up to $110. Shipping will tack _at least_ 5 bucks onto each of them, up to $115 now. At retail levels, there will be a middle man doing the import, with a markup, brings the price into the $130 range. Not sure if GST will apply at scale, it will at retail, if so, now we are approaching $140 per each at retail quantity one pricing. NZ packages here this spring, were $165 at retail quantity one pricing. The only difference I see, is the cost of an airplane ticket to get them up from the southern hemisphere.

I think the main benefit for folks buying in quantity would be the ability to import by truck, at the border crossing of your choice, so you could eliminate the middle man during the import process. The big issue for bringing in from southern hemisphere in that respect, they will arrive in Vancouver, and unless you plan to drive out, it's not possible to eliminate the middle man during the import.

The numbers will improve somewhat at larger scales, but, if you scale up enough, you'll affect the supply / demand curve in the US, which will increase the base price, and that'll cascade thru.


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

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Ian said:


> If you would take them beginning of March but even so, almond shook bees would never pass CFIA's requirements. It would be designated package operations, Oliveraz come to mind, already set up as package producers, control over their own hives over their own acres


If the above was true you can pretty much rule California out. I don't know any package producers that leave bees out of almonds so they can shake them later, other than to start cell builders early.
When you get the border open let me know. I would send some clean packages up on a share crop basis.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

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Olivarez package bees are almond bees. The only reason why Olivarez is a large operation is because an almond grower provided them with the capital to expand to 20k operation and buy out a business in Hawaii. Those bees become the growers for pollination season. Talk about owning your bees!! The real package producers would be from southeast US.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

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videos of the standing Senate committee on Agriculture, holding hearings on The importance of bees and bee health in Canada in the production of honey, food and seed in Canada


http://senparlvu.parl.gc.ca/Guide.aspx?viewmode=4&categoryid=-1&eventid=9331&Language=E#


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

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Looks like we have some good fiction writers in Nova Scotia, Manitoba and Alberta. You might get your way Ian. There is a bunch of dialogue in the Senate regarding the opening of the border. You have to read it all. http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/sen/committee/412\AGFO/51195-E.HTM

Mark my words the dynamics will change. You might find that your existing operation will have to change very fast. The best news is that you will write your bees off to zero every year. But it makes an apiary worth the price of the supers. A hive becomes worth $60 bucks at the end of each season. I see an advantage geographically for me. I could do it like my father did in the 80's. I'll grab packages in March, down in the Fraser Valley or Okanogan. Catch a pollination, bring them up to the Peace Region in May. Kill the bees in September and start again the following year. I will have the advantage to take delivery earlier and possibly get a pollination payment. I could probably still make it work. It does really take it back to simpler times. Less labor with the Cowen machines and a whole lot less management of the hives. Plus if there are any infections in the comb I would have Iotron right there to irradiate the combs before the next cycle.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

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JodieToadie said:


> Mark my words the dynamics will change.


So if I get what your saying, if the boarder were to open to packages, it would drastically decrease the value of my current hives? That's a different way to look at things. 

Let's see if I have this right. Currently I value my hives at what it would cost to replace them. Last year I paid $150/nuc on May25th which got me basically what I currently have right now after winter, but a month earlier than buying nucs. By May 25 this year each hive should be twice as big as the nucs I bought, so I would say right now my bees are worth $250/hive minimum. 
If they open the boarder that value would become $75/hive? That would be a write down all right. It would make my beekeeping inventory feel like Blackberrys that nobody wants.

Luke


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

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Here's a key quote from the senate hearing, "I have brought you further research that demonstrates a clear model of how you can keep bees healthy and treatment free using package bees."

It's all about margins. If honey producers are going to simply blow bees out of their hives rather than try to overwinter them, it means that those of you that do overwinter hives can buy those bees, that would have been blown out of hives, as packages for 50 cents on the dollar.

There's no reason to defend a price bubble if your margins remain the same or improve.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

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WLC said:


> Here's a key quote from the senate hearing, "I have brought you further research that demonstrates a clear model of how you can keep bees healthy and treatment free using package bees."
> 
> It's all about margins. If honey producers are going to simply blow bees out of their hives rather than try to overwinter them, it means that those of you that do overwinter hives can buy those bees, that would have been blown out of hives, as packages for 50 cents on the dollar.
> 
> There's no reason to defend a price bubble if your margins remain the same or improve.


And feed them, overwinter them, treat them, work them, then feed them some more .


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

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Or, not.

They could always ship double the packages back to the U.S. for half price.

You send up 3#s, you get back 6#s.


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## allincuddy (May 11, 2012)

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There is a huge opportunity for bee producers to make large increases in Canada and over winter nucs for spring sales. This will pretty much stop Canadian interests in sinking any money into a bee producing businesses as when the boarder is opened, the capital investment would be worth $0.30 on the dollar. Great incentive for bee producers in Canada!! Put some government incentives out there to help with Canadian bee producing. It's 2014, sure it's easier to get bees from a warmer climate but it's not as impossible as one might think to produce bees in the GREAT WHITE NORTH and help our economy out at the same time!!!!
May as well just keep buying foreign until we run out of gas, oil, Canola and honey!!
Rant, rant, rant!!
Sorry but feel better now LOL
Mark


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

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WLC said:


> It's all about margins.


Not sure that you understand the market or economics very well. It costs a beekeeper up north in the range of 65 bucks to overwinter and medicate a hive (singles, doubles would be more) plus I figure I lose 20lbs of honey. So why would I want to spend $105 to possibly have 30% losses to overwinter a hive I could replace for $60 in spring? If the border is opened overwintering would not make any sense at all. Plus beekeepers in the usa are just as smart and wouldn't buy more bees going in to winter either as your other post suggests.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Jodietoadie, can you itemize the overwintering expenses that up to 65$. Thanks.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

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allincuddy said:


> There is a huge opportunity for bee producers to make large increases in Canada and over winter nucs for spring sales.


It will change the current market completely there will be big winners and big losers. As the California market reacts to a border opening there might be huge fluctuations in package prices. Under production or scarcity at first then overproduction. As the market becomes adequately supplied I will speculate that our nuc production market will go to zero. Those beekeepers will chase pollination and honey production. Crowding those markets and causing the prices to go lower. With margins squeezed and a less labor intensive, lower cost, more number stable method available beekeepers will jump to package bees. (This will also tear down barriers of entry for new competitors.) So we will return back to gassing our bees at the end of each season and ordering new ones in spring. (Otherwise known as the package treadmill.) Currently we beekeepers value our hives at $250-$300 each. Once we start on the package treadmill a hive in fall will be worth exactly $60 bucks or the price of 2 supers. 

I can understand the economic reasons for doing this but I think the proponents either didn't think it out or are so large that they don't even care. It will hurt smaller beekeepers disproportionately. The guy with 1000 hives or less will be the big loser. The guys with 5000 or more will win big time.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

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My take on the economics of wintered vs package. It cost me about $45 per hive to winter and maintain my numbers. Historically I've had a 10% surplus, so at $100 a package (which is probably the cheapest US bees will be when all is said and done) that reduces my cost by $10 to $35 if I sell my surplus. Building up packages in spring I estimated would cost me $15 per package. Packages would need to be priced at $20 for me to break even. With singles I don't leave an appreciable amount of honey in the brood chambers. Usually I'm panicking to get the feed in after the hives have been stripped. 

Gassing bees on a large scale would never fly in today's political environment. It would be legislated illegal in short order. On top of that bees, honey and beekeeping have gain a lot of public goodwill. That goodwill towards beekeepers would be gone in a heartbeat.

My understanding is that there is not a big surplus of packages in the US. Perhaps someone more familiar with the supply of packages could comment. I suspect the the protocols required by CFIA may well reduce the pool of package suppliers as well.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Sorry for the mistake JodieToadie. Could you itemize the overwintering expenses that add up to $65.00?


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Haraga said:


> Jodietoadie, can you itemize the overwintering expenses that up to 65$. Thanks.


It was an estimate but sure. 
What's Apivar worth? $5 bucks a hive.
Fumigillan? $3.50 possibly treating fall and spring.
Oxalic Acid is darn near free, same with Oxytet. But I do use honey bee healthy so combined another 4 bucks. 
Lets say labor for 3 treatments spring and fall or 1/2 hour per hive (5 minutes per hive per treatment including pre-mixing and set up and cleanup. Say my labor is $15.00 per hour. I would say it costs $20 per year for medication and labor. You could cut or add as you see fit. 
Knocking hives down to singles takes me some time. Say 20 minutes per hive in fall or $5.00. 
Per hive I would say I need around 50lbs of sugar to make weight. I don't get a huge deal on sugar so $.50lb or $25.00 per hive. Again you might do better or worse. 
The dedicated building or hive wrapping is not free. You may have costs lower or higher but we'll say $7 bucks per hive for argument sake. I would also guess that feeders have a limited lifespan and it might cost $.50 per hive for feeders per year. That might leave me $7.50 for labor to move hives in and out and set up for wintering, monitor and check hives, and pay for gas, utilities and other associated things I might have missed. 

Hence $65 bucks per hive. 

Haraga, what do you estimate your costs at. How far off would you say I am?

So medicating total cost per hive might be $20.00


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## allincuddy (May 11, 2012)

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You are totally right as it will bring back the old way of getting rid of your bees, save money and go on vacation until spring. 
But does this type of bee keeping do anything for the health of the bees in Canada or are we going to go further down the hole with worse bee genetics buying the left overs from the California almond pollination hives that have been stressed out and are not very tolerant to our condensed flows. 
I am not convinced the pollination hives from the almonds do much for the genetics that honey producers are looking for in the north but I might be wrong. 
How long will it take to increase from 200 to 5000 ? LOL hopefully less time then it takes our government to get together and pass a bill.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

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Allen Martens said:


> My take on the economics of wintered vs package. It cost me about $45 per hive to winter and maintain my numbers. Historically I've had a 10% surplus, so at $100 a package (which is probably the cheapest US bees will be when all is said and done) that reduces my cost by $10 to $35 if I sell my surplus. Building up packages in spring I estimated would cost me $15 per package. Packages would need to be priced at $20 for me to break even.
> 
> Gassing bees on a large scale would never fly in today's political environment. It would be legislated illegal in short order. On top of that bees, honey and beekeeping have gain a lot of public goodwill. That goodwill towards beekeepers would be gone in a heartbeat.
> 
> My understanding is that there is not a big surplus of packages in the US. Perhaps someone more familiar with the supply of packages could comment. I suspect the the protocols required by CFIA may well reduce the pool of package suppliers as well.


You make very valid points Allen, perhaps I am alarmist. What is your position on packages? I was not very old when the border closed but I hung around with a lot of beekeepers that did gas bees. I do think you could get packages for lower prices in the long run as California discovered the market again. The classic trick was a 4lb package with 2 queens so you ended up with 2 hives. I do believe in the long run CFIA protocols would disappear.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

JodieToadie I don't know the answer to the costs. Like any other part of farming, if you knew the cost, you would be better off working for the county.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

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JodieToadie said:


> What is your position on packages?


I don't mind things the way they are. Law of unintended consequences could be painful. Many unknowns and who knows how things would end up. Operations could expand very quickly with cheap packages.

Many a beekeepers net worth would decrease greatly if the packages would be cheap.


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

>>Fumigillan? $3.50 possibly treating fall and spring.

Still would require a spring treatment with packages.

>>Oxalic Acid is darn near free, same with Oxytet. But I do use honey bee healthy so combined another 4 bucks.
Lets say labor for 3 treatments spring and fall or 1/2 hour per hive (5 minutes per hive per treatment including pre-mixing and set up and cleanup. Say my labor is $15.00 per hour. I would say it costs $20 per year for medication and labor. You could cut or add as you see fit.

The spring Oxytet treatments would still be necessary.

>>Knocking hives down to singles takes me some time. Say 20 minutes per hive in fall or $5.00.

Thinking you are running doubles in summer. Gassing hives would require some time as well - no idea about time requirements.

>>Per hive I would say I need around 50lbs of sugar to make weight. I don't get a huge deal on sugar so $.50lb or $25.00 per hive. Again you might do better or worse.

Some feeding and patties still required in spring.

>>The dedicated building or hive wrapping is not free. You may have costs lower or higher but we'll say $7 bucks per hive for argument sake.

Brood chambers would still need to be stored for winter. Many hot rooms double as a wintering room.

>>I would also guess that feeders have a limited lifespan and it might cost $.50 per hive for feeders per year.

Will need some sort of feeders for spring feeding. 

>>That might leave me $7.50 for labor to move hives in and out and set up for wintering, monitor and check hives, and pay for gas, utilities and other associated things I might have missed.

With bees or without bees, brood chambers need to be hauled back from the field and back to the field in spring.


A lot of the work and expense involved in wintering would still be present with packages IMO. Spring would be a big win work wise, summer the same and for me at least, fall would be a wash. It would be easier to maintain the brood chambers.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

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JodieToadie said:


> Not sure that you understand the market or economics very well. It costs a beekeeper up north in the range of 65 bucks to overwinter and medicate a hive (singles, doubles would be more) plus I figure I lose 20lbs of honey. So why would I want to spend $105 to possibly have 30% losses to overwinter a hive I could replace for $60 in spring? If the border is opened overwintering would not make any sense at all. Plus beekeepers in the usa are just as smart and wouldn't buy more bees going in to winter either as your other post suggests.


Let's not assume that there isn't a market for mid/late season Canadian packages in the U.S. .

Currently, neither the U.S. nor Canada has enough reserve stocks of Honeybees, especially after this past winter season.

IMHO, any increases made by the end of your season will dovetail in in terms of both timing and pricing with some U.S. operations.

The key being, capturing any increased productivity.

Two way package shipments are functionally equivalent to opening the borders to pollinators.

But, closed borders and overpriced packages are an obstacle to harnessing that productivity.

PS-Let's not forget the double brood cycle break. The bees get shaken twice in one season. Once going north, and once going south. That should mitigate most health issues.


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

IF, the border opened to US packages, packages would probably only be used for replacement of deadouts and any expansion in colony numbers.The present system works and it is only when losses exceed the 24-30 % that producers have trouble making up loses . In my opinion the border will never open to US packages, things are the way they are for reasons the CFIA and Customs have.Some reasons are listed in the last reply by CFIA to an appeal to open the border and some are not.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Irwin I think you nailed it.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

My take on the concept of going back to gassing hives. The bee industry is getting a lot of good press these days, sympathy press, which helps honey prices. Honey is deemed today to be a healthy alternative sweetener, and overall 'good for you'. If PETA got wind of commercial beekeepers gassing hives for economic reason, it would only take one season, and honey will be a blacklist product. Consumers will vote using the wallet, in droves. Bottles of honey will sit on store shelves, and not end up in baskets at the checkout counter. It may look like a short term economic windfall to gas hives, but, it would kill the honey industry faster than most realize. Honey on the store shelf, will bear the same black mark as a seal skin coat.

I know that many here have a low opinion of the uninformed consumers that live stacked up in apartment buildings in the big city, but they are the market. If those folks start voting with the wallet, you may well see business practises of the 70's return, but with it will come honey prices of the 70's too. Price is driven by demand, and special interest groups would be all over this with strong campaigns. One well timed TV commercial could well cause a hundred thousand bottles of honey to be left on the shelf instead of sitting in the checkout line.

In todays market, gassing hives may look appealing from a numbers view on the surface, but, it's financial suicide in the making.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

I agree that if made public, it would open up a can of worms, but I know of one beekeeper, that reduces down to nucs for transport to the BC coast for winter. Everything extra he kills, and we're not talking about just a few hives.

So if he didn't need to make those nucs and transport them down, then bring them back, I'm guessing he would gas the whole lot, and buy packages in spring. Besides who doesn't want a business trip to SoCal every spring? 

I sure hope you're right Irwin, that the boarder will stay closed. The impact of it opening, can not be calculated.

Luke


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## allincuddy (May 11, 2012)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

Agreed.
If the boarder opened could you imagine the increase in CCD come September?
For the huge guys who are run by dollars only, it would make good business sense for accounting.
Obviously if the boarders opened and package prices dropped below Canadian wintering costs it would be the worst thing for the bees.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

I doubt anyone will be gassing off hives at $120 packages.

Import permits have been issued for bees coming into Canada from the US and many other countries for a long time. If legislation changes, US packages will flow accordingly. 

We ship breeding livestock both ways across the boarder. It's the kind of work that will make you want to pull your hair out. How do queens make it across? All the checks in the right boxes, and fees paid. It will be the same thing for packages. In there eyes it's the same import paper.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*



Ian said:


> I doubt anyone will be gassing off hives at $120 packages.
> 
> Import permits have been issued for bees coming into Canada from the US and many other countries for a long time. If legislation changes, US packages will flow accordingly.
> 
> We ship breeding livestock both ways across the boarder. It's the kind of work that will make you want to pull your hair out. How do queens make it across? All the checks in the right boxes, and fees paid. It will be the same thing for packages. In there eyes it's the same import paper.


Quoted from the senate committee hearing: 
"Mr. Nixon: Because of our dollar, I think the price from Australia and New Zealand went up 10 or 15 per cent the past few weeks. Right now it looks like the price of package bees from those two areas will be around $150 for a two-pound package, one kilo from New Zealand.

We can open up an American beekeeper magazine today and see a three-pound package of bees going for $45. We are all business people, and the Americans know what we're buying packages from Australia and New Zealand for. Realistically, we don't expect these packages to be coming in at $45; but the health in itself is valuable. From Australia and New Zealand, a big part of the $150 is for freight. At times, a problem for accessing packages is the number of planes and how much space they have to ship bees. You can imagine that it's a delicate shipment. Literally, complete shipments have been lost in transit due to overheating. There are definitely some risks in importing packages. We believe that bang-for-the-buck, we can access just as good or better bees for equal money or less."


I don't think that they are planning to pay $120 for a package.

Luke


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

Australian beekeepers have suffered some setbacks this past season. So, you might expect price increases and delivery issues.

I just wanted to note that the main flow in much of Canada, from late June to mid August, coincides with the summer dearth for many beekeepers here in the U.S. .

I think that is important to note. Packages could flow both ways you know.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

I haven't heard Canadian beekeepers sound off on this bit of news:

"Sadly there has been an incursion of the Asian bee (Apis cerana Java genotype) in the Cairns region... This will have serious repercussions for trade of live bees from Australia to the rest of the world."

Any comments?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

Luke >>I don't think that they are planning to pay $120 for a package.<<

Ha ha, they can plan all they want for 3# $50 packages, lol
Id switch to package honey production if that were the case


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

WLC:

Packages have gone south. I know I have sold a few going south. I think there is huge potential for Canadians. It is a bureaucratic nightmare to accomplish, but not impossible. I sold a few 3 years ago or so to an older gentleman.

Anybody who thinks that packages could be had for $60 is dreaming. I don't think that because some business is advertising 3 pound pacs for $45 that any can be had. I am paying $23.50 U.S. a queen then plus this and that. They end costing about $27.50 ea Cdn which is about what the co-op is selling them for. I have a beekeeping buddy that buys queens for $17.50 in the states. I am sure cheaper may be had but so what... not for us.

As Canadians wewill pay more because of the CFIA protocols cost $ for the producers. It is a big hassle for them and they are wiling to go through the hoops, knowing that a premium can be had. Expect the same for packages. Why would they supply Canada, some are still bitter from the time the border closed.

I agree with Ian on the point that an open border would allow greater management choices for most beekeepers. If 30% are dead then a call or two and next week you have access to replacement stock. Cannot really do that now. Essentially you have to put the order in october to insure that you have bees.

JT- You are not in touch with the reality of pollination here on blueberries. You will never make it out of the Fraser Valley before end of May. There are new varieties that prevent beekeepers from leaving before june 10.

Even though we sell a whole bunch of bees an open or closed border is fine with me. Good beekeepers adjust to the conditions that they currently face and do not remember the good old days, or project a rosy future if only such and such a condition existed. It is best to focus our energies on our current situation.

Jean-Marc


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*



jean-marc said:


> Good beekeepers adjust to the conditions that they currently face and do not remember the good old days, or project a rosy future if only such and such a condition existed. It is best to focus our energies on our current situation.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Very well said, probably the best advice I have seen posted in while.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*



jean-marc said:


> JT- You are not in touch with the reality of pollination here on blueberries. You will never make it out of the Fraser Valley before end of May. There are new varieties that prevent beekeepers from leaving before june 10.
> Jean-Marc


Yeah I am out of touch, it has been 20 years since I did any pollination down there. It is strictly hypothetical and I am asking questions. (But June would be even better for up here that is just before we get into a clover flow.) Mr. Nixon stood in front of the Senate committee and inferred that he could get packages for $45 dollars from the USA vs. $165 dollars from New Zealand is that not perjury? He also claimed that the bees we sub-standard? I got 180lbs of honey from a 2lb package of them last year. Ian buys lots of them and I doubt he thinks they are sub-standard. You all seem to accept that Mr. Nixon might have told an untruth. 
I am trying to get to the $45 dollar number is all. I can get close with a 4lb package and 2 queens for say around $120 bucks. Not one of you have argued with that price, not one. I prefer to plan and not react. Reacting causes mistakes. Hypothetically how would I handle an open border? What could happen? Do I think it is a benefit? I might be taken for a fool I can accept that. I prefer to understand the economics and make decisions based from there and not based on 'what we have always done'. If I think I am going to lose money, I ain't doing it. 

I know of the same beekeeper as Sharpdog, he runs 3500 hives up here. He two queens them. At the end of the season he makes up 5500 nucs and gasses the rest of the bees. It isn't fiction, he strips all the honey and gasses the rest. Sends 5500 nucs to the coast for the winter. PETA has never called him on it.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*



JodieToadie said:


> Not one of you have argued with that price, not one.


what is it that you want argued?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

$45 a package, yeah right. Doubt it. Doubt many Americans get them for that price. Perhaps if you show up with your own cages and crew to shake the bees then perhaps. I suppose if it were to rain again someday in California, then those beekeepers would maybe want to get some of that $2.50/lb honey and the $45/package might no longer be available.

Anyways JT I also doubt you can get $60/packages, but you never know. I have been wrong before. Even though you paid $165 for NZ bees last year at 180 pounds/hive, there may have been a few nickels left over for your pocket. Not a lot I think but a few. I wouldn't bank on 180/season. They might be getting better seeing as how some Canadian genetics were exported to NZ. Either way good luck this season.

Jean-Marc


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

With international partnerships, those kind of numbers (market prices) aren't always in play.

I think that you would need to think in terms of $s per pound of bees.

If you're arranging your own packaging and shipping, it's a matter of what your agreements state.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*



Ian said:


> what is it that you want argued?


If the border opened do you think you or I could get a 4lb package with an extra queen for $120? Or what do you presume the price would be? What number would make you change to a package honey producer? 

That's really what I want to know. What number would make you change?


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*



jean-marc said:


> $45 a package, yeah right. Doubt it.
> 
> I wouldn't bank on 180/season. They might be getting better seeing as how some Canadian genetics were exported to NZ. Either way good luck this season.
> 
> Jean-Marc


This is what the Alberta Honey Producers representative speaking to the senate was saying. These are not my words these are his. I also doubt a $45 dollar package is available. I also find that the inference that New Zealand packages are no good is at best an exaggeration if not a lie. 

I would never bank on 180lbs of honey anytime. But the NZ packages May 1st held their own against nucs delivered May 26th. I would say they are neither superior nor inferior. I also wish you an excellent season Jean-Marc and always enjoy your input but you might have mistaken what I was trying to say with my posts on this forum. 
I was down in Cache Creek this weekend helping a friend make splits. The bees are building up well from what I see. I hope yours are too.


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## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

My concern is, Manitoba and Alberta are presenting a very one sided argument to get the border open. They are touting that cheap packages are available, current imported packages are poor, and that the canadian beekeeping industry cannot survive winters without packages. 

My first thought: if the border were to open and my "2000-3000" hive operation sustains a 50% loss, can I and every other "unlucky" beekeeper who sustained the same losses just pick up the phone at the end of March and order replacement stock?

If this is meant to be a crutch, I'm not sure how that would work. Seems like a bad winter would cause massive inflation, and an easy winter would leave the American package producers high and dry. 

How many packages are available for sale in April?? Surly any large order would need to be placed in fall?

Luke


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

My bees are always good. Sometimes good enough to make a crop sometimes good for nuttin but they are always good. I would not change to a package operation unless everybody and his dog wanted to do pollination down here and prices dropped to a point where I thought it would not be worth my trouble. Nucs are a tough sell already, then I would take advantage of the place I own in NE Alberta and become a honey producer. After all I may as well take advantage of the so called cheap packages. At that point I would overwinter there and any losses could be replaced with packages if it made sense. So much for packages helping blueberry growers around here. I know of 9-10,000 hives that no longer would be available locally.

A comment on your neighbor who gases bees. Father started the outfit and father started wintering 200 singles in Boston Bar area when people were starting to make noise about possibly closing the border. He wanted to gain experience and see if it were viable. He figured he had a few extra dollars in his pocket with those ones come the end of the year. So he brought more down the following year. He then made the now famous 5 frame styrofoam nuc box to overwinter his bees and saw that there even more dollars in his pocket after the season. He also liked the queens that they were raising and told me that they would not go back to packages should the border open. His son runs it now and I suppose that they would have to be awfully cheap to go "all in"

As a management tool, last minute packages could make beekeeping more attractive. Who wants to buy a million or two million dollar business, lose 50% the first winter. You are kinda done at that point. It does not make the sale of your business very easy. 

I would tend to agree with Mr Nixon in his comments about NZ bees being sub standard. Ian and and you both did very well last year with them but I have heard many times more of hardships for those who have used them over the years. As they say even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*



JodieToadie said:


> If the border opened do you think you or I could get a 4lb package with an extra queen for $120? Or what do you presume the price would be? What number would make you change to a package honey producer?
> 
> That's really what I want to know. What number would make you change?


$50, needless to say...


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*



jean-marc said:


> My bees are always good. Sometimes good enough to make a crop sometimes good for nuttin but they are always good.


Best line to come out of this dog chase tail discussion. Always saw you as a glass half full kind of guy.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*



jean-marc said:


> Ian and and you both did very well last year with them but I have heard many times more of hardships for those who have used them over the years. As they say even a broken clock is right twice a day.
> 
> Jean-Marc


Now Jean-Marc, give me a bit more credit than that... there is a beekeeper behind every story and beekeepers always blames the bees...those broken clocks made me a crop last year and made it through winter very well. 

The entire point I am making is we need a better network in place to be able to respond to emergency situations like I found myself in last spring. No bee available, many producers went short. I called in reinforcements to cover a 40% spring time loss, NZ package producers squeezed out a bit more bees which got me out of a high loss jamb. And that's the whole point of what I'm saying. Without that available stock, I would of been out 200 hives not just last year, but also this year. Those extra packages were not scheduled for delivery last year until two weeks before they were shook.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

Since the people north of the border seem to have a better head on their shoulder currently than us old ticks and hicks here south of the border I would like to know why any of us nuts down here would even consider selling packages to some person north of that magic little white line for $20 less than they are fetching here in the US? 

$50 per package ... Yea right???

Thanks for the good chuckle before I hit the hay!!!!


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

Ian I sure that you did a few things right to get the 180 pounds. As a matter of fact if it were entirely up to I would have seen that you got double that amount. After I know you worked hard at it and deserved it. Heck, if it were only for your family I would have seen to it that they got triple the amount. Would have made sure it was only clover/alfalfa so they could get a premium when it is sold.

I understand the point of beekeepers needing bees to make a crop. I also understand the concept of opportunity. Without those 200 your business is down in revenue by about 70K. Again this year if you were not able to make them up.

Risks can be mitigated in several ways:
Have a standing order with NZ. Last minute you can sell to others or not
Order nucs from BC. Many fine producers out there. Same thing last minute can always sell them to someone else.
Bite the bullet and produce excess of your anticipated needs and you always sell the excess next spring. It can cut into the first years production, but not necessarily and to some degree you become "self sufficient".
Final option open U.S. border and get bees from there. As Phil pointed out they are not priced at what Canadians would like them at currently. We pay premium for U.S. queens. I am sure we will pay a premium for the U.S. packages. In my opinion N.Z. pricing minus airplane ride, add truck ride instead. $120-$130. I don't think I would be off by more than $10 each way, perhaps, but time will tell.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

>>As a matter of fact if it were entirely up to I would have seen that you got double that amount. <<

Exactly my point. 
Beekeepers love to lay blame for poor performance to anything other themselves. There the ones who continually have the trouble. 
You made reference to a broken clock still being able to tell the time twice a day (btw love that reference) how about the wearer of the watch trying to wind the watch so he can tell the time all day ! Lol


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*



Honey-4-All said:


> Since the people north of the border seem to have a better head on their shoulder currently than us old ticks and hicks here south of the border I would like to know why any of us nuts down here would even consider selling packages to some person north of that magic little white line for $20 less than they are fetching here in the US?
> 
> $50 per package ... Yea right???
> 
> Thanks for the good chuckle before I hit the hay!!!!


 40$ packages= joke of the year


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

Why could you get bees at below market rates?

Perhaps you're a honey producer in an international partnership. 

You buy a pound of bees at below market rates from south of the border, then you sell two pounds of bees back south for below market rates.

It makes sense if you can increase your margins by not holding on to bees all year long. Especially when they're not productive.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*



mathesonequip said:


> 40$ packages= joke of the year


What is a 4lb package worth where you are?


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

3 lb. packages are in the $95 to $110 range retail. we are picking up some from cal. in pa. for $100, next sat. for a new beekeepers group. southern packages are a bit more this far north like 100 to 120... spring nucs seem to be quoted about the same to 165.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*



JodieToadie said:


> What is a 4lb package worth where you are?


You could have a thousand 4's from us in two weeks at $85 each. The wholesale prices on threes hover around 75 $ currently. Open the border and you can kiss the commonwealth sharks goodbye...


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*



Honey-4-All said:


> You could have a thousand 4's from us in two weeks at $85 each. The wholesale prices on threes hover around 75 $ currently. Open the border and you can kiss the commonwealth sharks goodbye...


Wow! Discount package pricing only weeks after we were told that "17 billion bees were killed or injured" 20% of almond hives were killed and that severe bee shortages for pollination were going to be felt throughout the summer.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*



Honey-4-All said:


> $50 per package ... Yea right???
> 
> Thanks for the good chuckle before I hit the hay!!!!





Honey-4-All said:


> You could have a thousand 4's from us in two weeks at $85 each.


I'm buying 100 2lbs packages from NZ for $168, hmmmm
that is where the $45 price comparison tends to come from.
Wow, twice the bees for half the price in two weeks, it lines up perfect. Drop them in, pay for them in the Ontario pollination fields, out to the canola fields, pull off the honey and winter only the best, start all over again next season... I'm in!!


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

First, I am not understanding the theory that adding customers will lower costs. Looking at it from this side of the border, it would probably work to raise prices. Additional demand is usually a factor in raising prices, no? 
While prices might be cheaper initially for Canadian package buyers, compared to NZ, why would they be cheaper than what we are already paying here? What percentage of the market would Canada be, at current consumption levels? I understand consumption would rise with lower pricing, but producer prices would probably rises with any measurable increase in demand. They have been going up annually as it is. 

Sheri
PS, H4A, what would that 4# cost with an additional queen? It is my experience that package producers are sometimes reluctant to sell 4# 1Q packages. Perhaps the additional Q would be enough incentive. Any educated guesses what they would cost be by the time the hit final destination? Every year we see package prices at under $50 coming out of the south, but that is the pick up price and you come closer to double that than not by the time they hit the streets up north.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

Sheri, I'm not saying they will be priced lower, I'm suggesting as I always have here that we would likely be paying $120 in my yard. Whether that's 4# or #3, I don't know but I do know H4A is selling #4 for $85

I'm not looking at this as a package bee opportunity,my previous post was toung in check directed towards another producer up here who satilites this site 
My argument is strictly on affordable bee availability


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

the available supply of packages and nucs in the northeast is pretty thin right now. of course transportation and distribution into smaller quantities is not free. if wholesale packages are $85 in calif. in lots of 1000 then about $100 delivered in Canada, west coast is not too far off. a large new market will not lower the price.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*



Ian said:


> Sheri, I'm not saying they will be priced lower, I'm suggesting as I always have here that we would likely be paying $120 in my yard. Whether that's 4# or #3, I don't know but I do know H4A is selling #4 for $85


Here s the scoop. Our regular dates in April for 2014 packages with UPS will be wrapped in a few days if all goes as planned. The last ones were sold last Thursday night. On Friday morning I asked my brother to put together a form where people could let us know if they wanted to be notified if we opened up for other packages the next week ( offered only if the weather is cool on the ten day forecast in staying with our goal of shipping healthy packages that have not been overheated at any step of the shipment) Since then 94 people have filled out the request.... Amazing... People are still looking for packages in the US... 

We have queens galore and other beeks are screaming to dump bulk bees at me for packages. We only need to coordinate it and get them sold before the bees hit the trees harder than they are .

Open that border to make your dream come true... If your hoping to catch a scent of a strong honey flow on the prairies produced by a truckload of reality priced packages its the only place to start.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

Honey-4-all:

Pardon me for interjecting.

But, it only works if you're willing to truly partner with the Prairie Pothole beekeepers, and buy them back when their flow is done and your fall flow begins.

They can get market prices anywhere.

If productivity doesn't flow both ways, why should they bother?


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

Prairies guys will be happy to replace winter losses. Not too many planning to sell them back south. Too much work. Few have the experience. It is not impossible to learn, but who does it now. Basically I think I have the most experience as far as I know. I sold 3 packages in the US of A 3 years ago. I did it for the experience. I know of no one else who has done it. So as the self appointed package bee exporter expert of Canada, me thinks I still got a lot to learn about the ins and outs of that aspect of beekeeping. I just don't see guys shaking bees after a frost and the bees are pissy, the crew wants to return to warmer climates from where they originate. Sounds like a pretty good plan to have people walk away from the job, never to return.

Jean-Marc


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

WLC: 

I do not think there is much of a fall honey flow in Northern California. The only one I am aware of is the Cargill plant. Comes delivered on 18 wheels. There are many prairie beekeepers who object to opening the border today. Tomorrow should the border open those same fellows will likely change their tune. Same fellows objected to Hawaii queens. Once they became available they ordered plenty of them. Same noise was made about California queens. Once those became available many are being used up here. Eventually the same thing will happen with California packages. Give it 5-7 years. So says my crystal ball.

Jean-Marc


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*



WLC said:


> Honey-4-all:
> 
> Pardon me for interjecting.
> 
> ...


I'm a little lost. They won't buy from us at a less expensive cost if I refuse to buy them back? Economics tend to be more circular than parallel. What am I buying back? Bees? AS per that fall flow you speak of :s I would love to catch it if you know where to find it.:scratch: Our flow wraps at the same time theirs does as a matter of timing on the calendar. That's on a wet year. On a year like this I suspect it will be wrapped before theirs even starts.. 


Market prices for what????


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

Jean-marc:

I was thinking more about Manitoba/Saskatchewan. There flow matches up rather well with the dearth in many parts of the U.S.. 

While I can't put a bead on Canola flows, the number of pounds of bees that could be supported by that month and a half flow is very large.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

FYI: Our first major consistent flow of the year arrives tomorrow at 8 am +- ..... 

$10k for 40,000 lbs of liquid fun. The old hose flow is about to run..... Here we go again.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Honey-4-all:

My dearth matches their flow mostly. The same can be said for other states.

What's the matter, you don't think that what's good for the goose is good for the gander?

Productivity, and expenses are what matter. If you can improve those together, that's worth pursuing.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*



Honey-4-All said:


> You could have a thousand 4's from us in two weeks at $85 each. The wholesale prices on threes hover around 75 $ currently. Open the border and you can kiss the commonwealth sharks goodbye...


Well H4L I appreciate the input. I am not worried about weather the border will or won't open (contrary to popular belief). If it did would you consider jumping through the hoops to ship packages to Canada? If I picked them up, when would be optimal time for you to have them ready? Ideally for my current operation May 15th works. If I did adjust it would probably want them earlier. Is there any volume discount? I do prefer the 4lb with the extra queen. When is optimal for ordering if I was to want 250? I have done the run to Crescent City in 10 hours from Abbotsford but that is running a ways above the speed limit. Is air flow enough to keep that many packages cool in a trailer? I do understand that demand would raise prices but timing also plays a factor. (All hypotheticals aside, thank you for your time.)


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

WLC said:


> My dearth matches their flow mostly. The same can be said for other states.
> 
> What's the matter, you don't think that what's good for the goose is good for the gander?
> 
> Productivity, and expenses are what matter. If you can improve those together, that's worth pursuing.


WCL will you quit interjecting all that none sense... Americans dont want Canadian bees = no money to be had, Canadians want American bees...$$$


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

As an aside, I've been keeping an eye on a class action:

http://www.fieldlaw.com/practicearea_currentactions.asp?practiceID=89

"
Statement of Claim and Proposed Action

Statement of Defence

Plaintiff's Notice of Motion for Certification (September 12, 2013)

Crown's Notice of Motion to Strike (November 8, 2013)

Crown's Written Representations in support of Strike Motion (November 8, 2013)

Plaintiffs' Written Representations in response to Strike Motion (November 29, 2013)

Crown's Reply Written Representations (December 5, 2013)

Order to Strike (March 5, 2014)

Notice of Appeal (March 28, 2014)
"

Maybe they'll go NAFTA? Who knows?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Ian said:


> WCL will you quit interjecting all that none sense... Americans dont want Canadian bees = no money to be had, Canadians want American bees...$$$


IAN:

Don't assume that all business models revolve around your own.

WLC.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

how much are you willing to pay for a package full of old summer bees?


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Vi, I mean WLC, do you personally know of any US buyers?


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

Jean-Marc
I agree many of the beekeepers who prefer the current state of affair would make use of packages from the US if bees were needed (myself included). Economics dictate one needs to operate on level field to stay viable. I may be wrong, but I think the strongest opposition to an open border comes from eastern beekeepers and maybe from Saskatchewan.

CFIA seems fairly consistent in there risk analysis and the current queen protocols would be difficult to apply to packages. As long as support for a closed border stays strong from many parts of the country, they may well go with the status quo for a while. Barring the introduction of new bee parasites into the US, sooner or later the border will open, but how long is anyone's guess.

WLC
There is no appetite for canadian beekeepers to shake bees in fall. I don't see a market for the fall bees. The economics would not be good nearly enough for canadian beekeepers to engage in this. Much as you seem to like this idea, it won't fly. Now if you are talking bees on comb that would fly economically, but that's different can of worms.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

If packages can come the last week of June, you can return the courtesy by shaking at least double the amount in August.

By the way, I just sent the link for the senate transcript in case counsel missed it.

Haraga, If I did, you would be the last one to know. 

It's your competition after all.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Might get tight this year for me now. My nuc delivery is in question and I got a load of supers to fill. Hopefully I can build organically and fill these darn things. I need a split rate of over 300% to meet my targets.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Wlc, based on what you know, do you think Americans would buy canadian bees late in the summer if they could?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JodieToadie said:


> split rate of over 300%


might not fill any boxes at that split rate!!!


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## Allen Martens (Jan 13, 2007)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*



WLC said:


> If packages can come the last week of June, you can return the courtesy by shaking at least double the amount in August.


And that's all that's happening. There's no honey in that equation.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

There's plenty of folks who would love bees for the fall flow.

It's just not you up north.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Ian said:


> might not fill any boxes at that split rate!!!


Yep, gonna have to be a magician on a tight rope now.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

Ian:

Nothing personal, but Honeybees aren't worth more than $15 a pound.

They're not from my own experience anyway.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JodieToadie said:


> Yep, gonna have to be a magician on a tight rope now.


Say Jodie, you know what you need??? Some good quality relatively priced AVAILABLE bees...  lol


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

Ian said:


> Say Jodie, you know what you need??? Some good quality relatively priced AVAILABLE bees...  lol


Who said I didn't agree with you? LOL. You can't have discussion without a 'devil's advocate'. Getting a discussion going on here is awful tough.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

WLC said:


> If packages can come the last week of June, you can return the courtesy by shaking at least double the amount in August.
> 
> By the way, I just sent the link for the senate transcript in case counsel missed it.
> 
> ...


Wlc, what good would a US package be to me if they were delivered the last week of June?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*



Ian said:


> Thats my point, take that experience elsewhere...


I know the value of disease free invertebrates.

Honeybees have too many pests, pathogens, and parasites to have such a high price tag.

Clean up your own shop before claiming 'experience'.

They're way overpriced.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Haraga said:


> Wlc, what good would a US package be to me if they were delivered the last week of June?


LOL , Haraga, you could hive the bees to build through the flow, to shake out in the fall for pennies on the dollar, ha ha ha 
There is a good business model for WLC to follow... lol use your experience on that one!!


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Don't be so cute.

If you're the ones price gouging Canadian Beekeepers, they won't forget. I certainly didn't do it.

Perhaps if the border does open up, your own business models will need to 'adjust'.

I wonder if Ian will have to turn over those sheds he's been sheltering bees in back to the cattle?

If packages become available, it's good news for some, bad news for others.

It hasn't happened yet though.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

*Re: Inspiration to keep going*

Wait until you get your over winter tallies, and the New Zealand packages actually arrive, before you crack wise.

You don't know where you stand yet.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

I still don't comprehend why beekeepers out West don't just overwinter nucs, or why at least some of them don't try to make a business off overwintered nucs. There's an obvious demand for early bees, and relying on imported genetics is just begging for wasteful winter losses.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Ian said:


> might not fill any boxes at that split rate!!!


Why woudl boxes not get filled? I am seriously interested since I have been looking into just exactly what ti takes to get a colony built up in different time frames.

For example I have seen information that indicates a queen can go from 2 frames to 10 in approx 4 to 6 weeks.

I have seen an exceptional colony go from 10 frames to 40 in 2 months. The timing had something to do with that.

I can start nucs in the later half of July and still have them built up to a 5 frame deep and medium even without a flow. The following spring they will build up to light production size. A 10 frame deep and a medium that can make 30 lbs of honey or more. These queens are started on 2 frames.

So your comment does not indicate a lot. A queen is a queen and will produce brood. How and why is it you suspect she will not build a colony?
Anyway I am attempting to put together some general build up numbers for various times of the year.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

Dominic, I can't speak for the others in the west but I can tell you that the New Zealand bees work fine for me. They seem a little expensive when I sign the front of the cheque but compared to other expenses in farming, bee costs are cheap.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Daniel Y said:


> How and why is it you suspect she will not build a colony?


oh Jodie can split his operation 300% and fill boxes no problem, its that his honey supers will not be full. And I assumed it was honey supers he showed in his picture.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Dominic said:


> I still don't comprehend why beekeepers out West don't just overwinter nucs,


Yes, internal nuc production is key. I currently do that. Infact I nuced my entire operation down last spring to make up my losses. It was the silver lining of last spring that bought me a honey crop later in the year. I'm bringing in 100 packages to re establish my nuc stock to start that program again. 
Dominic, the entire point to opening the boarder to US packages (probably California producers) is to have readily available stock at hand to cover unusually high wintering losses. If I dont need to buy bees, Im spending my money on my boat not bees. But if my losses are severe enough to put me short, I have to scramble to fill those boxes otherwise I'm out of business. Last year for example, the nucs went short on supply and were selling over $250 for two framers... 

Packages are best for filling dead out equipment.

I agree with Allen and Jean-Marc, this thing is years away. And if it does go throughDealing with government officials on both sides of the boarder is going to make the whole process as appealing as walking naked through a field of stinging nettles . Right now our farm is in the "process" of bringing up a bull from Nebraska... took us a month of phone calls and paperwork to get one down to Minnesota, its taking us two months to get this one up... If officials want to stagnate trade, all they have to do is drag their heals.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

For once I agree with WLC. There is a market for bees in the U.S.A. I guess many of you have forgotten about Aussie bees being shipped to California. Trust me they were over $15/lb. That market was filled starting early October right up to just before bees were sent to almonds. I do not see many Canadians getting too excited about that opportunity but it is there. Paperwork has to be filled, inspections etc... It is a bit of a nightmare but not insurmountable. 

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Except the seasons are switched, their nests are growing ours are shrinking, the young to old bee ratio is reversed. Many old bees in a fall time shook hive. I was told by Beekeepers who use to operate a package honey operation before the boarder closure that they killed them off because nobody wanted old summer bee packages. Not worth the time. Can't see Americans bothering with the boarder for fall time Canadian packages. But if I could yield $50 per hive doing so I'd be the first to do it.

I believe Honeyhouse holder sells fall time shook bees. Cerious what he sells them off for?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

The primary demand for fall bees in the US is for almonds, and I would say the Aussie bees were a desperate bid by beekeepers who lost their own and couldn't fill contracts. some years that happens some years it doesn't. And the same holds true for "blow bees", those unwanted fall bees that couldn't be even given away until almonds came into play. We buy a few hundred of these every year, for $10 a colony. We shake the entire colony into our boxes for $10 a hive plus the labor to do so. The prior owner is happy to find a home for his bees and we are happy to have them, even though they have not been treated and are often full of mites. Some years, Canadian packages might be worth something for almond bees, but I guess the market would have to figure if , when and how much. It would be tough building a business plan around such iffy demand.
Sheri


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

Ian said:


> Except the seasons are switched, their nests are growing ours are shrinking, the young to old bee ratio is reversed. Many old bees in a fall time shook hive. I was told by Beekeepers who use to operate a package honey operation before the boarder closure that they killed them off because nobody wanted old summer bee packages.


What stage of the New Zealand season do you imagine that the kiwi packages are shook? and isnt it the case that bees from the last round of brood in a season are physiologically set up to survive for many months before they kick start a new nest?

Edit: do you need to take precautions to avoid putting these old bees in your shed for indoor wintering? (sorry for all the questions, but I'm interested )


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Those bees are wheel barrelled out of the shed as they die in the floor. 

I suppose they could be shaken into packages in November... Less summer bees at that point of time, and lots of long lived winter bees


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Ian said:


> Yes, internal nuc production is key. I currently do that. Infact I nuced my entire operation down last spring to make up my losses. It was the silver lining of last spring that bought me a honey crop later in the year. I'm bringing in 100 packages to re establish my nuc stock to start that program again.
> Dominic, the entire point to opening the boarder to US packages (probably California producers) is to have readily available stock at hand to cover unusually high wintering losses. If I dont need to buy bees, Im spending my money on my boat not bees. But if my losses are severe enough to put me short, I have to scramble to fill those boxes otherwise I'm out of business. Last year for example, the nucs went short on supply and were selling over $250 for two framers...
> 
> Packages are best for filling dead out equipment.
> ...


Why not produce more nucs than one expects to need, and then pinch the oldest queens in the spring and combine excess nucs to boost colony strength? Just seems to me like a safer and more economic approach than waiting for losses and then straggling to make up for them when the season starts.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Dominic said:


> I still don't comprehend why beekeepers out West don't just overwinter nucs, or why at least some of them don't try to make a business off overwintered nucs.


This thread is a spin off thread from another, where I was asking about exactly that.

After sifting thru the hot button / political opinions / responses, and separating the wheat from the chaff, the answer to my original question is pretty clear.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

grozzie2 said:


> This thread is a spin off thread from another, where I was asking about exactly that.
> 
> After sifting thru the hot button / political opinions / responses, and separating the wheat from the chaff, the answer to my original question is pretty clear.


Yeah it pretty much went off the rails. Sherri punted a bunch of comments and I have no idea anymore. Short answer we all overwinter nucs already. Until the border opens we'll continue to do so. Probably still afterward depending on economics. You will still have a market if you can get them up here by May I am sure.


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## JodieToadie (Dec 26, 2013)

I still like the idea of a Tamagotchi bee hive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamagotchi
Some of the 'internet' beekepers could hone skills with it. But having said that my post will probably get removed.


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## deejaycee (Apr 30, 2008)

mbc said:


> What stage of the New Zealand season do you imagine that the kiwi packages are shook? and isnt it the case that bees from the last round of brood in a season are physiologically set up to survive for many months before they kick start a new nest?


you're on the money, mbc. These aren't flow bees or summer bees that are being shaken here in New Zealand to go to Canada - they're autumn bees, a different animal. Most of our summer flows finished two months ago, but we have a long, mild autumn in most parts of New Zealand, and my bees here in the bay are still actively breeding, though at about two thirds of their summer rate... they'll shut down over the next month, but as at last weekend drones haven't been evicted even though autumn's over half done. 

Last weekend I 'wintered down' the last half of our hives.. taking them down from four or five boxes to two. Most hives not as full as summer of course, but all the boxes were still well populated, and there was heavy bearding on the cut-down hives when we were done. The boxes that came off went on after the summer's harvest, end of February-ish .. average one box full of capped honey which we'll take, the rest of the frames half full - extractable if we were strapped for cash, but as it is I'll let the bees clean them out and pack themselves in more. 

I don't shake bees, but friends around here do. So, yeah, what you're getting are a normal age distribution of bees that have been well fed by a strong population, have raised fewer young than their older sisters did, and have had mild flows in mild weather in shorter days, so haven't worked so hard. 

I'd buy 'em.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Dominic said:


> Why not produce more nucs than one expects to need, and then pinch the oldest queens in the spring and combine excess nucs to boost colony strength?


Thats the goal Dominic, but realize it takes a few years to recover numbers after loss events. I got mine back up right away with packages last year. Others sacrificed their honey crop, zero income... Others are rebuilding as they can. No easy answer Dominic. Everything looks good on paper but translating it into the bee yard is another thing.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Yup Ian, that is the challenge. Figuring out which direction you want to go. Then just go in that direction and then you can second guess that decision all summer and winter long. Lots of advice given here, but no matter how you cut it, if circumstances have kicked your butt it takes a lot of work and determination, and cash to recover. A few wrong decisions, some discouragement, can quickly lead to going under. Almost happened to me, but fortunately/unfortunately there is no quitting in me.

Jean-Marc


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Did I forget to mention that the Canadian Canola flow (and pollination) happens in July?

The same happens in North Dakota which leads U.S. honey production, thanks to Canola.

Regardless, as long as Canadians have to rely on expensive bees air freighted from the other side of the world, their margins are going to suffer. 

The biosecurity arguments that are being used to keep that happening are no longer valid according to testimony from the senate hearing transcript.

I think that the senate hearings have bought out the fact that the current practice of obtaining bees from NZ is unsustainable.

So, perhaps they might change policy sooner rather than later.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

WLC said:


> Did I forget to mention that the Canadian Canola flow (and pollination) happens in July?
> 
> The same happens in North Dakota which leads U.S. honey production, thanks to Canola.
> 
> ...


Canada is a big country. While some of the biosecurity concerns may not apply to the prairies anymore, they still do for a lot of Canada. Newfoundland doesn't even have *Varroa*. As much as I have a hard time understanding why the West just doesn't produce a ton of surplus nucs every year to satisfy its needs, I don't understand why we don't have a ton of packages and nucs shipping out of NFL to everywhere else...

Is importing from NZ or Chile sustainable? Perhaps not. But the American model of continental-wide pollination isn't either. Bees are sensitive creature that are the target of a number of serious pests and diseases, and their world-wide commerce propagates pests which make a lot of beekeeping operations crumble as well as propagate unadapted stocks and reduce genetic diversity. The only international bee sales, as far as I'm concerned, should be germplasm by research teams.

Constant flows and year-long pollination are short-term gains that aren't sustainable. Dearths are great periods to provoke a brood break to help with pest management. Pollination are harsh operations that stress the bees, kill many, malnourish the colonies, spread diseases, and reduce winter survival.

There are many mechanisms to adapt that are considerably more sustainable than the easy short-term fix of simply opening borders and importing more foreign stock. Overwintering spare nucs is a major one (and you don't have to be some expert breeder to do it). Overwintering or incubating queen banks is another (there will be losses, but if people actually tried to make it work, some would no doubt find a way where the gains outweigh the losses). Cryoconservation of drone germplasm in order to inseminate queens early in the season when drones are not yet mature is yet another. And lastly, then one should look to buy nucs from neighbors who also overwintered spares and didn't have as much losses, or import from the neighboring province(s).

The problem isn't that the imported bees cost too much. The problem is that people rely on imported bees themselves too much. Cheaper packages would just increase all the other costs of beekeeping. The local beekeepers I talk to are pretty unanimous: imported stock losses at overwintering are considerably higher than local stock. The research center confirmed as much.

I'd add that if someone wants a constant flow, he can do it. Just buy land, or rent it. Don't even need any machinery. You want canola? Sow some winter canola in august. Then some spring canola as soon as you can enter the field. And again a week after. And again a week after. And again a week after. You'll have canola flowers for most of the season, until the cold kills them. Doesn't matter where you live, you can do it. As a bonus, in the regions that are well-suited for canola, you can even sell the crop to help cover the costs. They say that bees survived for so long and thrived so much because they were generalists, as they can more easily adapt to any changes in their environment. If beekeepers specialize, and all end up doing the same thing, then the capacity to adapt lowers considerably and costs of problems increase dramatically. Everyone on almond? What happens if there's a new pest that appears there, and in their panic, they spray a new pesticide that is thought to be safe for bees but end up killing most of them? They go for blueberries, but a cargo accidently imported tropilaelaps into that region, and it spreads to everyone?


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## irwin harlton (Jan 7, 2005)

"So, perhaps they might change policy sooner rather than later."

Don't count on it

The present situation has been arrived at because of large wintering losses last year, at least in Manitoba.In the past Manitoba Beekeepers have democratically voted against US packages.The situation certain outfits found themselves in,losses well over 50% led to the "am I my brothers keeper".Does anyone have the right to prevent the access of US package bees to a beekeeper that has suffered horrendous winter losses. and is facing a sure crop failure before the season has even begun.This and the rising price of honey led to what he have today.Personally I think the government through the Senate Committee hearings is throwing a few crumbs back to the industry...after all bee losses are in the news and these clowns, Senators get well paid for doing very little,or just showing up.


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## Haraga (Sep 12, 2011)

It could work....in Tamaguchi land.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Dominic said:


> There are many mechanisms to adapt that are considerably more sustainable than the easy short-term fix of simply opening borders and importing more foreign stock.


Dominic, in your mind, should we stop the importation of US queens? Chilean Queens? NZ packages? Australian packages? 
Would you consider the importation of bees from these foreign places a short term fix or would you accept that the importation of foreign stock has become an integral tool in our Canadian beekeeping practices,?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

jean-marc said:


> Then just go in that direction and then you can second guess that decision all summer and winter long.


Thats the worst part of this business, second guessing the "I should of"


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Dominic

Do you really want to know why Newfoundland does not produce a whole bunch of nucs? Well, they don"t call it the rock for nothing. Perhaps it has to do something with the fact that there are very few beekeepers there, producing relatively small crops on account of the general inhospitable climate there. I am sure that if the area was good for bees there would be beekeepers. 

I think we have been fed this story of varroa free packages from Australia and New Zealand in the past. Generally speaking they just have not performed, or perhaps our expectations of how they should perform was just too high.

Jean-Marc

Jean-Marc


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## mbc (Mar 22, 2014)

jean-marc said:


> I think we have been fed this story of varroa free packages


Sorry to be off topic, but it makes *much* more sense if you are in an area where the bees will have varroa, to get stock from an area where the bees have also weathered the first storm of varroa.


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