# Absolutely amazing!!!



## Seymore

That's pretty kewl!


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## DC Bees

That's good to hear,i think people are starting to catch on.I am treatment free and my hives are doing well!


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## Solomon Parker

That's good to hear. However, the treatment-free ideal began almost thirty years ago when Dee Lusby began to combat trachael mites with cell size alone. Ten years ago, Michael Bush was documenting this successes with the idea. Nine years ago, I started.

The beekeeping industry has suffered countless heartbreaks over the last thirty years as new treatments work and then fail or just fail to live up to their promises. The way of agriculture is first to look for something in a bottle to fix the problem, fertilizer, pesticide, antibiotic, or herbicide. There are always better ways, but they are not as quick.

It is good to see some validation for what we've been doing for years.


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## julysun

Treatment free would take us back to bee gums. I am bad treatment free yet I am using SBB and working on ventilation, both treatments. Dr. Salk eliminated Polio, Edison gave us the Light Bulb. Lang gave us the modern hive, M. Bush has a new top vent and top entry. No I am not good treatment free, never will be. Bad treatment? Well, that is different! :lookout:


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## squarepeg

look at it like this:

treatment free isn't necessarily a means to an end, but the end result of master beekeeping.

i.e., wouldn't it be the goal of all us to have hives that were healthy, produced lots of honey, requeened themselves ect., without us ever having to use anything foriegn in the hive?

that's going to be my goal. my 10 over wintered hives are now 20 hives. no syrup was fed and no treatments were used all year, except a one time antibiotic treatment in march for the remaining 9 hives, after number 10 tested positive for afb and was burned. this happened in the first round of brood after winter.

even though i was focused on increase, i harvested about 50 gallons of honey, and got about ten deeps and thirty supers drawn out.

i have two hives that have yet to get to wintering weight, otherwise all all heavy, healthy, and queenrite.
i'll end up taking a few frames of honey from the really heavy hives and giving it to the light ones.

beetles are being controlled with traps and fire ants, moths are being controlled by strong hives.

very few mites found on drone larvae, but i think i would just requeen a hive it it got too many mites, and make darn sure it doesn't get robbed by my other hives.

my stock is survivor stock bred from long time feral hives in my area. there are still quite a number of surviving feral hives nearby, that are supplying at least some of my worker bee genetics.


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## Rick 1456

I wish she would come down here. I'm tired of being the only one being called names. I'd stand up on stage with her till the crumungens started throwing stuff.  LOL It is amazing to me the difference in what makes sense to one, and not another. Such is human nature. I believe it boils down to what one considers to be successful beekeeping. Success with making a colony survive with all the chems necessary, or success by having healthy hives that survive w/o chem intervention. It is a different and not the easiest path to take. But the satisfaction of doing that is so much more rewarding. I keep spreading the word and taking hits, but there are those that are emerging because it has to somewhere along the line become obvious what is happening, and you are doing by putting insecticides in your hives. 
How can the bees learn/change to deal with mites, if we keep interrupting it. There seems to be the level of 10 mites in a mite count that warrants treatment. Well then that is alll your bees will ever have to deal with and you will never know what they can handle.
Goto go


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## squarepeg

nature provides antibiotics, i.e. mold. nature is chemicals. chemical free beekeeping isn't possible, because bee physiology is by its nature chemical. 

nature provided, or beekeeper provided via formulation in the lab, chemicals come and go.
good ones and bad ones. like in the microbial sense - good (normal flora) bacteria necessary for good health, and bad (virulent) bacteria that cause disease.

rick is spot on, let the bees figure it out, like they have been doing for years.

as far as mites, the feral bees in my area dealt with them a long time ago. my queens are daughters of queens of feral mites that became varroa resistant. i.e. my queens are derived genetically from bees that have never been exposed to a mitacide.

and as long as i am keeping them, they never will.


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## Tom Davidson

At our last bee meeting, the speaker issued tons of treatment advice. Then he told us of so many beekeepers in his county next door losing ALL of their hives last year. Of course his reaction was treatments, just a changed regimen.

Later that meeting a mentee of one of my mentors who uses soft treatments asked me what to do. First I told her, "figure out what kind of beekeeper you want to be and then ask the people appropriate to your approach." Them I told her mine. The mentor listened back in and said, "Tom, you really have drunk the Kool-Aid!" Then She put down the treat ment free methods I began to talk about, and I ended by saying, "Well, at least I'm trying it. How do you know it doesn't work?" She had no good answer. We'll see how it shakes out, but I feel good working with nature rather than against it. I started this year with 2 hives, and have 6 now prepping well for winter. We'll see.


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## Rick 1456

This thread is so refreshing! Thanks. What makes sense to me, is to set the stage for nature/the bees to make the adjustments. The stage is a healthy home and environment as much as we can. Everything else is a mask.


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## squarepeg

i'm trying my best not to get in their way, them seem to do better if i leave them alone.

but my boxes are not the same as a good tree, and i'm robbing some of their honey, sooooo.....

i give myself lattitude to be a good caretaker.

+1 on the working together with nature. doesn't always mean lack of intervention.

good thread, thanks for the posts.


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## Rick 1456

We all have to set our own "bar". Intervention means different thing to different beeks. Don't get me wrong ,, just sayin. Maybe I'm out there near Pluto, but my bar is, if my bees swarm, they should make it in what ever home they choose. Assuming they chose a good one. Maybe I'll get a swarm from them sometime Just me


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## squarepeg

i let half mine go, (swarms), and succeeded in trapping the other half.

i depend on them, (swarms that become feral hives), to survive and provide drones with survivor genetics to my area.

i made good hives out of four caught swarms this year. 

i'm maxed out at 20 hives now though, so any caught next year will be sold.


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## Rick 1456

Pretty much what I do I think it is all about diversity. Not so much to us, but the bees. The mating/selection process is something I do not think we have much of a clue to. Like I said,,,,,set the stage as best you can


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## Rick 1456

Syman tics,,,,,They can treat themselves if given the opportunity. Perhaps your point?


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## Andrew Dewey

I don't want to rain on the parade folks, but so much depends on location. Beregondo correctly observes that bees need a good location, a healthy diet, and good genetics. If you purchase stock (as many new beekeepers do) from sources that have (always) treated their bees for everything, pulling them completely off meds will be disastrous. Especially if you have but one hive. I've no doubt that bees can make it without "dopes" (to use Dee's phrase) But it takes an intentional and to a certain extent knowledgeable approach to get there. Then too this is Agriculture and there are no guarantees. To bring it back to my opening sentence, so much depends on location. If you are in an area where "good" genetics are reasonably available with a cohort of experienced beekeepers who are making treatment free beekeeping work, than rookies may have a chance of making treatment free work for them. If not...


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## squarepeg

oh yeah, i forgot to mention i'm in the tennessee river valley. over 800 flowering species within a two mile radius. plus i have a few things on the property, the best of which is 200 mature autum olive trees.

andrew is correct pointing out that beregondo is correct. the best bees in the world couldn't make it at the north pole.


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## squarepeg

just read for the first time mike's great thread on the coevolution of bees and mites. looks like a lot of this ground has been hashed out there already. could we be getting closer to a 'conventional wisdom'?


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## Rick 1456

Been re reading the thread. I don't feel treatment free takes us back to log gums Although before AFB and EFB, they did pretty well. My first hive was a transfer from an old box to a Lang.  I've been switching from foundation to natural and still using the lang frames. Has worked well for me and the bees really seem to pre fer it. Just another part of the "stage" that IMO needs to be set. I re iterate what Andrew and S P are saying. Bees being "localized" can/is the difference for me. I went to couple of the local bee club meetings came away feeling bad for the newbies that "had to by their bees from one of the more southern production apiaries. It was even discussed how the queens from some of these apiaries had a high supercedure rate. It seemed to me to be a program doomed from the start. Behind the scenes I tried to make a point to get their packages from a reputable breeder from our temperate zone. We shall see. 
Moving towards conventional wisdom,,,,,wow,,, Does that mean we won't be Mavericks anymore???LOL
Good posts,,,,


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## Solomon Parker

Andrew Dewey said:


> I've no doubt that bees can make it without "dopes" (to use Dee's phrase) But it takes an intentional and to a certain extent knowledgeable approach to get there.


In fact, it doesn't. This subject keeps being approached from the ground floor, where bees are totally unresistant and you have to start from the beginning, building your own treatment-free strain. You don't. 

Mites have been around these parts for over 20 years. The only reason you'd be starting with 'green' bees is because you chose to. You'd be starting with 'green' bees because you figured any $20 queen was as good as any other queen. It would be your choice to do that and for buying such cheap stock, you'd deserve the work you had ahead of you. But has as been shown, you can buy resistant stock and make it, certainly starting miles ahead in the marathon. There's a gentleman who posts on here all the time who started by buying treatment-free stock and they have survived as well as any, and this year he pulled in a really good honey crop.

We've moved past the discussions of going cold turkey. The only reason anybody will treat their bees to keep them alive now is because they choose to, whether it be by buying cheap queens or packages that aren't meant for this world, or because they couldn't bear to do no thing. The information is out there, and the resources are available. If you don't want to do what it takes, then don't come to TFB and complain that you can't do it. 'Can't do it' is over.


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## Solomon Parker

squarepeg said:


> no treatments were used all year, except a one time antibiotic treatment in march for the remaining 9 hives, after number 10 tested positive for afb and was burned.


Now what would you want to go and do that for? That just invalidated everything you had to say. Getting rid of entirely unnecessary treatments is exactly the point of this forum. You treated them. There is no 'I didn't treat them, except for that one time.' Frankly, your results are invalid in this forum.

And just for those who may not be familiar, let me explain why. Antibiotics kill microbes wholesale within a hive. There are literally hundreds of species present and they compete with each other. Specifically, the one that causes chalkbrood competes with the one that causes AFB. Now they've all been severely wounded and the chances of AFB surfacing are now much greater than they would have been if you had left them alone. 

You've stepped on the treadmill and selected the program. Better get off now or you're going to have to start walking.


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## Rick 1456

Because they compete for the same niche,,,,bee larvae???


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## squarepeg

sorry solomon, but i refuse to accept the wholesale approach of never do anything about anything and trust that it will all eventually work itself out.

as i pointed out, we are already intervening in the bee's life cycle by putting them in an artificial home, taking away their stores, and disturbing them on a semi-regular basis. this presents extra challanges to them introduced by us, and for that reason i am willing to consider remedies on an as needed basis.

i could have avoided the use of antibiotics, had i known better at the time, and *not* purchased six very old hives, in rotten boxes, which unkown to me, had been receiving antibiotics every spring and fall for years. this was my biggest mistake in beekeeping so far.

the afb showed up a year and a half later, after which all of the boxes, and most, but not all, of the frames had been replaced.

the affected hive only had a couple of old frames left in it, which were burned along with the rest of the $250 worth of new equipment, and the colony, in which i had invested considerable time and money.

i did what i did because i couldn't be sure which of the remaining hives might have been exposed to the spores. sorry man, but even thought of having to burn the remaining 9 hives was not something i was ready to entertain.

at this point, only a few of my now 20 hives have had the possibility of coming in contact with the spores, and no, i don't intend to give any hive antibiotics twice a year.

so brand me if you like, [Edit] and i apologize if i made you cringe at the thought of me giving these colonies the best chance, (my call), to survive what was essentially a beekeeper induced threat to their continued existence.


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## Solomon Parker

As a moderator: I have no problem with relating what you've done in the past. But you can't call it treatment-free in this forum and you can't promote it. End of discussion.

_______________________________________

As a user: I must warn other novices that using antibiotics is a sure way to step on the chemical treadmill. Antibiotics open up your hive to the strongest and most virulent microbes who want to take over, and that's generally American Foul Brood. Burn infected hives, eliminate susceptible stock. Anything else keeps this contagion in the population and weakens the species.


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## Rick 1456

as i pointed out, we are already intervening in the bee's life cycle by putting them in an artificial home, taking away their stores, and disturbing them on a semi-regular basis. this presents extra challanges to them introduced by us, and for that reason i am willing to consider remedies on an as needed basis.

I'm not sure I see the connection there. Artificial home? I think a lang with natural comb on frames stacks up to an old car gas tank. I do not sell honey. I take only surplus for family and friends. I believe a lot of problems stem from over harvest and then have to feed processed surgar syrup. Nosema comes to mind. In the wild, the bees may very well be disturbed on more than a semi regular basis. Bears, skunks, raccoons. I got yellow hornets aggravating my hives right now. Just me, I do not see the logic. I got no beef for those that want/need to. Just not my course.


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## squarepeg

thanks solomon and rick, these are healthy and respectful discussions, hopefully beneficial to all of us.

sol, i didn't mean to promote my operation as 'treatment free', by your definition. sorry if i was unclear.

rick, the lang is good, but in my view is no comparsion to a tree. climate control is probably the most obvious factor. as far as how much stress the colony experiences from inspections and frame manipulations, your guess is as good as mine.

again, i'm not promoting anything, just making observations and sharing my approach in an effort to learn more and get better.

i didn't notice i was in the treatment free forum when i first posted to this thread. i guess i infringed on your rules, sorry.

in fact, i guess i'll unjoin myself from this forum, no hard feelings of course, but i prefer the free exchange of ideas without the caveats.

in closing, i would like to share that as a doctor, i was taught to weigh the risk/benefit and cost/benefit ratios of any treatments that i prescribe to a patient.

one of the risks of treatments, as has been pointed out here, is the risk of a disease or it's causative agent developing resistance to the treatment. not giving the host a chance to develop natural resistance falls along these lines as well.

i would also say that for me, afb and varroa are totally different considerations. my choice to treat was based on a very careful analysis of the risk/benefit ratio.

respectfully,

sp


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## Solomon Parker

Thank you for your consideration. Please forgive the tone of the above post # 21, I realize now that it may seem harsh, it was not supposed to be. There have been no complaints, I just want to make sure that it was not taken in the wrong way.


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## DLMKA

Our last bee club meeting was all about fall hive treatments. Towards the end we went around and the room and everyone reports on their hives and what they did for treatments. Everyone looked at me like I was an idiot for not doing anything to prop up bees that can't survive on their own. This is my first winter keeping bees and I feel good. All but one of my hives is healthy with plenty of stores and I fully expect 8 or 9 to come out in the spring just fine. The one hive that's struggling I think might be due to some of my own dealings but I'm not that worried about losing one. I'll have a hive full of drawn comb to dump a swarm in come spring if they don't bull through.


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## Rick 1456

Thanks SP,,,enjoyed,,,,,The tree thing has been in my "thoughts" since the heat wave. Insulation, cool fluids from the ground to the leaves an back. Natures air conditioning. Maybe something. Law says we have to be able to remove the comb for inspection. Alas.


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## Andrew Dewey

Solomon Parker said:


> In fact, it doesn't. This subject keeps being approached from the ground floor, where bees are totally unresistant and you have to start from the beginning, building your own treatment-free strain. You don't.


I've seen too many beginning beekeepers who have 1 hive, haven't attended a bee school and are afraid to conduct inspections to have faith that they will be able to make treatment free work when starting with bees that are of ordinary commercially available stock. While I expect the availability of treatment free bees to increase, they are far from common in my area.


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## Rick 1456

With all due respect. If you just "dive" into this hobby, seems to me, you are inviting ,,,,,trouble/failure. AND to try treatment free, WOW. I have read lots of books on bees written by the best. Basic bee biology is just that. No one has written a book about bee management in my "area". Most folks agree bees are geographically successful. Maybe I'm wrong. It seems to make sense to me though. Trying TF with just commercial available stock is not, IMHO, going to work. If you get good bees, from a reputable breeder, from your temperate zone, you can get started. I'm not telling you anything you don't know. All respect. 
Treatment free is not common here because bee clubs are on the chem bandwagon. I appreciate what you are saying. Don't think my queens can handle you climate.


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## Solomon Parker

Andrew Dewey said:


> I've seen too many beginning beekeepers who have 1 hive, haven't attended a bee school and are afraid to conduct inspections to have faith that they will be able to make treatment free work when starting with bees that are of ordinary commercially available stock.


I think that's what I said, plus some. There is a model for successful treatment-free beekeeping. 

Number two in my model is never have only one hive. If you have only one hive, chances are you'll have 100% loss very soon. If you don't follow the model, you won't be successful. Number one is don't start beekeeping in the same year you decide to be a beekeeper. This implies that one will study before one jumps in. If you don't follow at least the first two steps (especially the implied part of number one), I will guarantee failure. That's my guarantee.


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## Andrew Dewey

So three cheers for the Apiary Inspector that acknowledged treatment free as viable! I guess what concerns/confuses me is how to reach/educate the person that wants to be a beekeeper and has heard that treatment free is a viable way to keep bees and think that what is really meant is leave alone beekeeping and that whatever it is, it is easy to have a hive and be successful. Maybe I worry about those new beehavers too much.


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## Seymore

I read the thread on what is a failure (or was it a success?) - anyway, don't want to go THERE, but Solomon, I consider myself a successful beekeeper. I am, however, very thankful for my stubborn streak - I think a necessary element to a successful beekeeper. I am finishing my 3rd year, there is still TONS I have to learn, still TONS I don't know, and I did everything wrong - started the year I decided to keep, bought bees and then whoa nelly. Point being, absolutes are dangerous. I am not a failure. The thing is, I know you have a lot of valuable wisdom and experience in this industry. But when I see comments like above ("*If you don't follow at least the first two steps (especially the implied part of number one), I will guarantee failure. That's my guarantee"*), it discredits you and makes me feel you are short-sighted. Now i dont KNOW that, but when I read your posts, I will hear your comments and then some of that value is lost on me. But I'm stubborn. I take what I like and leave the rest. I know it can be tiring holding our newbie hands, but we need guys like you and we need you to sometimes cut us some slack. 

This year was a great learning and experimenting year for me - I checkerboarded, did a cut down split, a walk away split, requeened successfully, started 2 nucs, and thanks to some advice today from Mr. Dewey in a moment of need went on my first Search n Destroy drone killing mission. (Is that TF??) Most of this is "Greek" to the members in my bee club - and I'm talking long time members. They look at me like I'm crazy. I've been reading bee for 3 years. And it sure fits - the more I know, the more I know I don't know. Oy vey! My first year was nearly insurmountable - but I DID prevail. I am a success. Don't recommend this path to anyone. Your advice is right on. But the guarantee - it's all wrong. I'm proof. Even if I were to throw up my hands and quit tomorrow.


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## Solomon Parker

How are you proof? You did what I suggest.


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## heaflaw

I've been told several times that here in NC, the inspectors and apiculturalists at NC State Univ very strongly recommended regular treatments. They would try to force you to treat to be able to register to sell hives. I have avoided asking an inspector to check my hives for that reason (haven't treated in 8 years). She spoke at our club a few months ago and I remember her stating that treatment free may be a possible option, but still recommended treatments. So, yes, this is absolutely amazing.


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## hillhousehoney

I don't even talk about it any more (treatment free). Their minds are closed. I backed off the "doin the club thing", because all they talk about is mites. I am so tired of hearing about mites and chemicals. This will be year 4 (treatment free). No winter losses. I might have some mites, but they are of no consequence. The bees are bringing in pollen and activity is crazy. Brood boxes are HSC, and 4.95 in the rest. And the honey is "yummy". Keep charging on, troops, just because others choose to do it wrong, does not me we have to !!


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## Tom Davidson

hillhousehoney said:


> I don't even talk about it any more (treatment free). Their minds are closed. I backed off the "doin the club thing", because all they talk about is mites. I am so tired of hearing about mites and chemicals. This will be year 4 (treatment free). No winter losses. I might have some mites, but they are of no consequence. The bees are bringing in pollen and activity is crazy. Brood boxes are HSC, and 4.95 in the rest. And the honey is "yummy". Keep charging on, troops, just because others choose to do it wrong, does not me we have to !!


Shake up the club, hillhousehoney! Sounds like they need it. Represent.  By the way, what is HSC?


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## hillhousehoney

Honey Super Cell. For faster regression. Plastic frame, already drawn. Pricey, but effective.


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## Rick 1456

Can you say curmudgeon LOL I went to a couple of Beekeeping meetings. I revel in being a Maverick. I got called names I tried to share some techniques that "worked for me. " I dunno, call me crazy for sharing. Still playing a little in the sand box.


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## jbeshearse

I do find this thread “Amazing”, but for a completely different reason than most that have posted here.

I realize that many beekeepers are set in their ways. *Almost everyone has an aversion to change. *This is not limited to senior citizens or beekeepers. **I think you are being shortsighted to dismiss all the combined wisdom that is undoubtedly present within the bee club, just because you disagree with their treatment philosophy.

This is my challenge to you. *Answer these questions and then consider those answers. 

What is the combined number of bee hives represented by those that have posted on this thread to date? ***What is the combined number of years of beekeeping experience of the same posters? *How do these numbers compare to the rest of the population you are choosing to disregard? 

Don’t misunderstand me. *There are a lot of times (especially surrounding resistance to change/trying new things) when I disagree with older more experienced keepers than I. *But they do, for the most part, deserve respect and have a wealth of other knowledge that I would be remiss to ignore. *They have more experience and actual time in field than I will ever have. *Why would I (you) think that I have all the answers?

Just because someone disagrees with your stance does not validate make theirs wrong and your right.

It doesn’t matter to me what your answers and eventual decisions are. *I just would like you to actually take the time to consider just where you are and how you got there.


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## Rick 1456

You express an excellent and valid point. I can only speak to my experiences. It is not about having all the answers. It is not about whos right or wrong. It about respecting a difference of opinion and entertaining the idea, you do not know it all. I never called anybody names nor disrespected anyone because they managed their hives differently than I. I just disagree in some respects. Sometimes knowledge gets overshadowed by ego. Just the way it is. I have some things working for me, that I tried to share. Just didn't want to hear it. You are crazy, you are a hot shot, are just a few of the comments vocalized . The grind I have, is that some of these are new folks getting into beekeeping. They are being told the only way to keep your bees alive is to treat with chems. Add EOs. put bleach in the sugar water to keep the mold from forming. 
You can have 30 years of bee keeping. But, if you did the same thing after three years, you have three years beekeeping 10 times. Dont get me wrong. I have all the respect in the world for those folks. Just give me the same due


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## squarepeg

a maverick with manners, hmmm...


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## hillhousehoney

I guess I would say that years do not _always_ equal knowledge. If I find a better way to do something, I am always willing to change. If a new invention comes along, that make my life more enjoyable, and productive, I may purchase that. I started in 1998. Those bees died. Restarted in 2007, small cell, these bees thrive. Rick makes a good point. The disregard for the way we do it, and saying that it does not work (which it does) just blows me away. I go to a bee meetings, and everyone is standing around scratching their heads worrying about mites, listening to speakers worry about mites, talking about new ways to worry about mites. While I enjoy raising bees. That's all. They were as happy to see me leave the club, as I was to leave. It goes both ways. I just don't hassle with it anymore. But I do make a distinction between my honey and chemically treated honey when I sell it. It increases my sales, that's for sure. No problems from me, that is why I like this forum. I should not have said "wrong". For that I apologize.


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## jbeshearse

hillhousehoney said:


> I guess I would say that years do not _always_ equal knowledge. If I find a better way to do something, I am always willing to change. If a new invention comes along, that make my life more enjoyable, and productive, I may purchase that. I started in 1998. Those bees died. Restarted in 2007, small cell, these bees thrive. Rick makes a good point. The disregard for the way we do it, and saying that it does not work (which it does) just blows me away. I go to a bee meetings, and everyone is standing around scratching their heads worrying about mites, listening to speakers worry about mites, talking about new ways to worry about mites. While I enjoy raising bees. That's all. They were as happy to see me leave the club, as I was to leave. It goes both ways. I just don't hassle with it anymore. But I do make a distinction between my honey and chemically treated honey when I sell it. It increases my sales, that's for sure. No problems from me, that is why I like this forum. I should not have said "wrong". For that I apologize.


Couple of things. When something is not mainstream it is up to it to covince the mainstream that is does work and it is better, not the other way around. How are you going to do that if you quit because you don't have instant credibility? You don't have credibility or respect until it is proven beyond doubt. Sorry but that is the way it is in everything. Years do not necessarily mean wisdom, but it does mean knowledge. And there is a difference. Without gaining knowledge, you can't gain wisdom. 

Other thing is the "chemically treated honey". The implications are that your honey has less pesticides and other chemical in it than my honey simply because I add treatment to my hives. False advertizing. I can pretty much guarantee that the honey out of my hives has no more foriegn chemicals than your does, probably less. My honey is definitely not "chemically treated". Do I add treatments to my hive? Yes I do occasionally. Do they get in my honey. No they dont. 

How old is the comb in your hives? Do you control a 6 mile diameter area around your hives to insure that pesticides and other contaminates are not being being brought back to your hives(wish I could but I can't and I venture you don't either)? I do not put treatments on my hives when honey supers are present, or two weeks either side. Usually much longer than that (that is supers, including comb). I will not allow any honeycomb or brood comb to be in my hives that is more than 3 years old. Do you? I test my honey for moisture content. Do you? The only time any of my bees see sugar water in a feeder in my apiary is when the hive has less than 5 frames in it and they are just starting our (swarm capture/cut out). How about you?

To imply that your honey is superior to mine, simply because you do not treat your bees is misleading at best. Purposfully or not. Then to charge extra for it because of that misrepresentation is well, nevermind.

Now, that I have said that: Yes I agree, the disreguard is a problem, from both sides of the aurgument. I am always happy for someone to try something new, and I always hope it works. I would never discourage it. As that is how progress is made. Both sides of the aurguemnt need to learn from each others successes and failures. If we run from each other, we will never learn, progress or gain further wisdom.

Good luck with your bees and methods. (and I mean that sincerely). Try to work with others in your area to further your successes and help them not to repeat your failures. if they don't listen, then it is their loss, not yours.

jeb


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## hillhousehoney

The opposing positions really do not matter to me anymore as I try to move beyond that. It is not a hill worth dying on. I intend my posts to be read and enjoyed by others who believe as I do. As I enjoy theirs. That's why I post on this forum only. I don't like to argue with anyone, it's not something I am comfortable with. I pick up swarms now, so no more packages = no more feeding. I don't want credibility, I was just shocked at the backlash against my views, hence, my leaving the club scene. I am quite happy doing my own thing. On the treatments in the honey thing, I respectfully disagree, and believe that Lusby will back also. Remember I said, "distinction" not "superiority". If the treatment is meant to get on a bee to kill a mite, it also gets on the wax, and then into the wax, and then into the honey, which goes into the consumer. That's not a good thing. My brood nest is fully drawn Honey Super Cell, the rest is removed via crush and strain. Thanks for the well wishes, and I extend the same to you.


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## jbeshearse

HillHouseHoney,

Thanks for the thoughtfull reply. It is a shame that you experienced backlash. It can go well or poorly depending on how it is presented. Too many times it is presented in the light that those that treat are bad guys, doing harm to the bees and selling chemical laden honey. When it is presented like that, offense is taken, and rightly so. I take what I can from our bee association meetings. Interject when I feel misinformation or poor practices are being promoted. But these are usually in the form of questions, not arguments or different points of view. THe same reasons I intefere on these forums. There are a lot of new beekeepers that read these forums and they deserve to have all the views availble to base their decisions on. 

I guess we will have to respectfully disagree about the chemical free honey distinction. I do not feel that there is a basis for your honey to have less chemicals than mine. I discard wax fairly frequently. I do not have any frames that will be used for harvestable honey on the hives during treatment (or for at least two weeks after). So they don't track chemicals into the honey supers. I generally do not use excluders. I do not crush and strain. 

It seems to me that even without treatment the bees are bringing back chemicals in the nectar and by contact with pesticide. Now if it is like you indicate and they are depositing this in the wax as they walk across it, then all wax is seeing some chemical. It would seem to me that you are much more likly to transfer those chemicals into your honey via crush and strain, than you would if you extracted. More contact area and more shearing to release those bound chemicals. Also more to have to strain out and depending on your mesh size (I use 400 as my finest strainer), more bits of this wax and unbwound chemicals will end up in the honey. From a sheer "keep the chemicals out" perspective, extracting would seem like a better option to me. We can't control what our bees are exposed to and bring back into the hive. That is why I discard comb after three years. I love seeing new wax and new frames. They are a work of art as far as I am concerned. I do use purchased foundation we hich can be a source of chemicals in the wax. I plan on moving to all foundationless when I can manage it. A secondary reason is that foundation is the most expensive part of my beekeeping practice. 

Keep up your good work and enjoy your bees. That is why I keep bees, for enjoyment, assume you do also. Selling honey was not why I started keeping bees, but they just make so darn much of it, you gotta do something with it. First hobby I ever had that costs less than nothing.

Cheers,

jeb


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## jim lyon

hillhousehoney said:


> On the treatments in the honey thing, I respectfully disagree, and believe that Lusby will back also. Remember I said, "distinction" not "superiority". If the treatment is meant to get on a bee to kill a mite, it also gets on the wax, and then into the wax, and then into the honey, which goes into the consumer.


You have every right to be proud of the product that you produce and make your claims accordingly. If, however, part of your marketing strategy is to suggest that others sell honey that is chemical laden without offering anything up as proof other than your assumptions is not only false it does a grave disservice to the honey industry as a whole. I do not qualify as being treatment fre by the definition of this forum and I have proof via lab testing by a major honey buyer that my 2011 crop honey has tested at 0 ppb for any miticides. Those are facts not assumptions.


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## beecrazy101

I bought two twenty dollar queens and have the same success with them as I have with the two nucs I bought. I am treatment free in my right. I think it doesn't matter what queen or maybe its just location. I have to put them in their new boxes this coming week. I am going to have five good strong hives going into the winter. Not genetics maybe its management.


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## Andrew Dewey

I've been thinking about the discussions/arguments that can take place at club meetings or other places (like BeeSource) where beekeepers meet. My college sophomore daughter has a way of saying things that implies she is starting out the conversation with "you stupid idiot!" I think that same kind of statement is felt, if not intended, on both sides at beekeeper gatherings. And that dooms any conversation and chance for mutual learning before it starts.

I would guess 80% of treatment free beekeeping is identical to treatment beekeeping. You still (most of the time) wear a veil, use a smoker, remove frames and do your best to read them. It is what you do about problems you encounter where you differ, or in actions that may get taken to minimize problems (I'm thinking of caging the queen to create a brood break)

One of the great things about the first post in this thread is that we hear of officials that are willing to consider treatment free as a valid response to certain bee parasites/pests. And that is amazing! The first part of any real discussion ought to be acknowledgement of the common problem, and then you can discuss your different approaches for dealing with the problem. Hopefully you will at least get someone who will be willing to listen to your experiences. Though fanciful wishful thinking without an understanding of the basics involved is not likely to win anybody over.

I know some dismiss the last 200 years of commercial and hobby beekeeping experiences as misguided. I think that is a mistake. The crowd may very well have gone off in the wrong direction but that is still the path that most have traveled and shouting "you're on the wrong road fella and about to go off a cliff" at them is generally not well received.

Some humility is needed too in terms of geography. In places where there is bountiful natural forage and a strong feral bee population I suspect it is much easier to make treatment free work. Just because your queen is amazing and her progeny make 100s of pounds of honey for you all while keeping varroa at undetectable levels doesn't mean we can plunk that hive down somewhere else and get the same result. But it is undoubtedly encouraging that such a queen exists and maybe a daughter would thrive at my location. Then again maybe not - after all, I am the guy in Maine trying out bees from Texas. 25% loss the first summer - I want this experiment to work and so far I'm not 100% sold, but I'm still trying.


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## WLC

I find it hard to determine if the inspector was reporting on official agency policy, if she was breaking ranks, or if she simply mis-spoke.

There are many other fields where folks are trying to take a more environmentally responsible approach to dealing with pests and pathogens. It's not just beekeeping.


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## WLC

If it was Nancy Ruppert, it's clear that she was referring to Integrated Pest Management (IPM) and not treatment-free beekeeping.

It was reported elsewhere that she distributed this pamphlet at one meeting:

http://www.clemson.edu/psapublishing/Pages/Entom/EB160.pdf

How someone can confuse an IPM discussion with treatment-free beekeeping is understandable, and yet, it's also a source of amusement.


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## squarepeg

are you saying treatment free beekeeping is really just the end result of good management?


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## squarepeg

is it expensive to have honey tested for impurities? would it not be better to let acutal test results to back up claims about the purity of the honey. i might sample some of mine next year just out of curiosity.


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## squarepeg

isn't the first tenant of ipm making treatments a last resort?


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## WLC

squarepeg said:


> isn't the first tenant of ipm making treatments a last resort?


Not really. It's more like you don't overuse the same chemicals that can be both wasteful and cause resistance to develop.


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## squarepeg

from wikipedia:


The Food and Agriculture Organisation of the UN defines IPM as "the careful consideration of all available pest control techniques and subsequent integration of appropriate measures that discourage the development of pest populations and keep pesticides and other interventions to levels that are economically justified and reduce or minimize risks to human health and the environment. IPM has been urged by entomologists and ecologists for adoption of pest control for many years. [1] IPM allows for a safer means of controlling pests. This can include controlling insects, plant pathogens and weeds. IPM emphasizes the growth of a healthy crop with the least possible disruption to agro-ecosystems and encourages natural pest control mechanisms."[2]

1.^ Knipling EF (1972) Entomology and the Management of Man's Environment. Australian Journal of Entomology 11, 153-167.
2.^ "AGP - Integrated Pest Management". Retrieved 19 August 2012.


i stand by my post wlc. the least risk possible would be zero use except for natural methods.


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## WLC

Funny thing is I looked it up as well in, "Beekeeping for Dummies".

The short version is: "...the idea of IPM is to manage honeybee pests by the minimal use of chemicals".

I guess they forget about the pathogens.

Regardless, it's highly unlikely that a North Carolina Apiary inspector was talking specifically about treatment-free beekeeping.

She was talking about IPM, which according to what I'm reading, is against the TFB rules. 

IPM allows soft treatments, etc. .


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## Andrew Dewey

My understanding of IPM is that it helps the farmer/grower understand through testing or observation what challenges in the form of pests, parasites or diseases are present. Once the problem and scope are known, a method of dealing with the problem can be decided upon. IPM in and of itself doesn't discourage or encourage chemical response to a problem, but instead sets the stage for dealing with the problem. The farmer/grower decides what the response will be and cultural practices may be an important part of the response. It may be that the farmer/grower believes that there can be no "appropriate" use of agricultural chemicals - but that belief isn't a component of IPM.


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## WLC

Folks, my point is that the OP confused an inspector's IPM talk for a treatment-free one.

IPM often stresses the problems caused by the overuse of chemicals/antibiotics.

I don't think that we want to say that IPM is 'absolutely amazing' here.


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## squarepeg

i believe you are correct wlc, about the distinctions between ipm and tfb, but my point was that the ultimate realization of ipm is tfb.


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## squarepeg

andrew, this too is my understanding of what it looks like in the practical sense. no hard and fast rules, but very well defined objectives.


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## WLC

Or, TFB is a form of IPM.

Killing wax moths by freezing. Freezing drone comb. Screen bottomed boards. Vented inner covers. Sugar dusting to 'count mites'. Rotating out old combs. Using mousegaurds. Using mesquite as a smoker fuel...

There are quite a few IPM tricks in TFB.

So, it's more IPM than TFB, really.


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## squarepeg

more overlap than distinction then, right?


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## WLC

More like: TFB is a subset of IPM.


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## squarepeg

good enuf.


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## beecrazy101

squarepeg said:


> are you saying treatment free beekeeping is really just the end result of good management?


No I was actually asking is it location or just management for treatment free? Like the queen ur suppose to pay big bucks for? I feed this year to get everything started on the right note now after wintering them I will have frames of honey to feed a new establishing hive. So I just want to know why u want people to think they have to buy these certain queens or your doomed? I will be buying some buckfast and Russians next year so I will have four different races in my yard. Should I buy them from the states or should I go to Canada for my buckfast?


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## squarepeg

ok, i understand the question is how much or little difference is there when introducing (maybe high priced) genetics into an apiary, buy purchasing queens bred for 'treatment free'.

i hope that some of the others will chime in, because i have some, but not alot of experience on this.

most of the bees i have purchased, i.e. several nucs, and a few queens last year, were bought from a local beekeeper. turns out, he has not used any treatments of any kind in the 14 years he has been raising bees.
his line of bees was started from cut-outs of feral hives that he took from the deep woods surrounding his property.

(i have two hives remaining that i purchased from a different source, and that was a nightmare)

my supplier doesn't advertise at all, or make grandious claims about his bees. he just started with local survivors and has mangaged to produce bees that seem to handle life around here with little or no intervention required.

i have been paying $20 for a queen, and $75 for a five frame (but sometimes bigger) nuc. i live 45 minutes away, can usually get them as needed in season, and i like getting bees that are adapted to my area.

i have propagated the best of these bees by spitting and catching swarms, and in two years went from 4 to 20 hives.

i have had really good luck with these bees, and it makes sense that i should. i'm not sure what i would do if these were not available.


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## Rick 1456

Your supplier sounds like me. O.K. I sound like him.  I've doing that for four years. Hardly a testament.(in my case) There are those that keep telling me, it takes that long before the mites take hold. I keep waiting. May happen, but I'll ride the wave till then. Had to draw the line in the sand somewhere. I can't say my bees are mite resistant, tolerant, or anything really other than, they have not died. I have not documented a hive that has not swarmed, or had a naturally occurring brood break for a span of three years. I'm not sure that makes a big difference in the big picture. My "thoughts" are that the bees that have some "feral survivor" genes deal with mites on a multiple front. Most things I've read suggest that the selected trait for VSH or whatever, falls out of the mix after three generations more or less. If there is no back up system in place, the mites population could be a problem again. I understand VSH is not supposed to be one behavior trait. I just don't know. The other thing I wonder is, if these bees, we are talking about, could dealing with the mites on a chemical/pheromone level? Don't know. It only makes sense(to me) that the bees that seem to be surviving the mites, came from a more a more diversified genetic background, as opposed to selected for "something". Seems it would indicate more resources genetically to draw from. My two cents


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## squarepeg

it makes sense to me too rick. i have no way of knowing what percentage of the sperm in my queens comes from my yard (which was mostly derived from feral stock anyway, and subsequently bred without treatments for mites or anything else), and what percentage of sperm comes from the feral colonies that are presently around me.

but yeah, the queen is only supplying half of the genetics, and if it is desirable, (and i think that it is), to have diversity, and if it desirable, (and i think it is), to have feral survivor drones contributing to your stock, then you and i are lucky that our locations allow for this.


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## Rick 1456

And it seems that location plays a huge role. But again,,,,I don't know.


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## beecrazy101

Well all is good when u have a supplier at ur fingertips, but for the majority we don't have that luxury. So I guess I will buy those Canadian buckfast and get my Russians from the Mississippi area and go from there.


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## Rick 1456

Sorry B crazy,,,,I beg to differ. the best bees I got came from a reputable supplier in my temperate zone.Tenn to be exact. JMHO, your finger tips need to be a little longer Those genes have been an augment to the swarms I have brought in. It's not easy nor cut and dry. Sounds like Square peg might help have a source.  dunno Net work


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## squarepeg

101, if there is nobody raising local survivor bees in south alabama you could be the guy! it's a little work but, you could do like rick and my suppier and seek out, trap, and raise survivor stock from your area.
it's almost easier money selling bees than honey. (not trying to tell you what to do, just a thought)

rick, my feeling is that location isn't everything, but almost. i think i posted somewhere that the best bees in the world wouldn't stand a chance at the north pole. they gots to have what they gots to have.

with the diseases and pests around these days, i would rate genetics as the next most important factor. i want survivor genes as much as possible.

lastly, i would say the skill of the beekeeper, when it comes to managing the artificial space we put the bees into, and finding out how to do things in a way that facilitates rather than impedes the colony.

just my opinion.


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## Rick 1456

To me,,,just me,it is simple,,,if the genetic material is not there, the bees can not draw from their ancestry to overcome the environmental pressure. Of anything. I'm not sure skill has too much to do with it unless skill equates to allowing the bees to take their own course. I know, philosophical bs but it is all I have to hang my hat on right now. It is working for me is all I know. I guess one has to decide to do it above all else and accept he consequences. I got lucky I guess with my swarms.


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## squarepeg

sounds like your doing something right,  
good work.


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## Rick 1456

What's right is setting the stage to let the bees do what they do best, take care of themselves. More complicated than that I know,,,but,,,
It's local.


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## squarepeg

agreed.


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## beecrazy101

That's is my plan in the next five years. I am looking at the best direction to go with a sideline. I started with two April 20 and split three times. Should have done more but was busy buying tools and started making my own boxes, covers, bottoms, but. still buying frames. I plan on selling some honey but mostly going to give it to family and friends. But after five years I will have a good survivor stock in lower Alabama.


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## squarepeg

good plan man. we are in opposite ends of the state, but if you ever get up this way and are interested in some of these nucs or queens let me know.


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## beecrazy101

I would like that. I would like to probly get a couple nucs up that way. I drove to Georgia for my two I got this year. PM me a contact and I will put it in for next spring and start with a few queens and probly two nucs. Thanks.


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## bamindy

When people ask me what goes in my hive my answer is "wood". That is it. No treatments, no foundation, no plastics. Which also means I save a bunch of money by not buying stuff others swear by and then spend more money on packages and nucs every Spring. I have been treatment free for 5 years and this year went foundationless. Great success this year on all fronts and we had a bumper crop. Letting the bees decide who will be queen and when, what size cell they want, and whether or not they survive is a decision they make on their own. All I do is keep stacking the boxes higher!


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## Kirk Osborne

As a new beekeeper, who will be starting his first 3 hives this coming Spring, I have to say THANKS. I appreciate this thread, and I am enjoying myself as I read the different ideas/opinions shared here. I hope to be treatment free. I know that I will probably have heartbreaks, losses, and headaches at first, but I am also hopeful that I will be able to contribute to a stronger, healthier, better bee in my area.

Again, thanks for sharing your ideas and opinions.


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## BeeGhost

bamindy said:


> Great success this year on all fronts and we had a bumper crop. Letting the bees decide who will be queen and when, what size cell they want, and whether or not they survive is a decision they make on their own. All I do is keep stacking the boxes higher!


Bamindy i'm with you whole heartedly!! Almost all my hives are from either feral hives or swarmed from someones hives, im assuming due to locations of catch most of them are from feral stock. 

I have done powder sugar treatments before, but due to time constraints I have not been able to keep a schedule of that, so I have decided to just let nature take its course, which will probably bite me, but hopefully if it works out I will be saving money and time!!


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## Rick 1456

K Osborne
I think we all have the troubles you mentioned some where along the line at sometime. JMHO, but I have found mine to be less and usually explained by my actions, or lack of, than a treatment of some kind that I do not fully understand the total impact on the bees and hive stability. Wish I had come across this forum or someone 7 years ago when I got back into bees that would have/could have shared this alternative. 
 Good for you and best to you.


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## squarepeg

kirk, when it comes to the tfb forum, i truly am the square peg trying to fit it. the reason is that i am not committed wholeheartedly to not ever using some of the 'treatments' listed in the special forum rules.

i feel that if i apply good management that the need for treatment should be very rare. of course, developing the skill to apply good management takes time, years perhaps. and even then, there can be changes and new developments arise at any time.

my approach has been to seek information from a variety of sources and glean what i feel is best. i really like the opportunity beekeeping gives me to be creative, in the sense of trying things and see what happens.

rick makes a great point when he says that beekeeping is local. to me, 'local' extends beyond location, and to the individual.


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## d.frizzell

bamindy said:


> When people ask me what goes in my hive my answer is "wood". That is it. No treatments, no foundation, no plastics. Which also means I save a bunch of money by not buying stuff others swear by and then spend more money on packages and nucs every Spring. I have been treatment free for 5 years and this year went foundationless. Great success this year on all fronts and we had a bumper crop. Letting the bees decide who will be queen and when, what size cell they want, and whether or not they survive is a decision they make on their own. All I do is keep stacking the boxes higher!


Now that is truly what "Treatment Free" is all about!! Thanks for the post!!


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## hlhart2014

bamindy said:


> When people ask me what goes in my hive my answer is "wood". That is it. No treatments, no foundation, no plastics. Which also means I save a bunch of money by not buying stuff others swear by and then spend more money on packages and nucs every Spring. I have been treatment free for 5 years and this year went foundationless. Great success this year on all fronts and we had a bumper crop. Letting the bees decide who will be queen and when, what size cell they want, and whether or not they survive is a decision they make on their own. All I do is keep stacking the boxes higher!


This is great to hear! Explain what you mean when you let the bees decide who will be queen...


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## Rick 1456

I guess this has gotten away from the Op but it is good discussion. Square peg, I'm not sure what local really is!!! Would my bees do well in Virginia? how far south, how far North, etc etc. Honestly I don't know. Would bees from you do well here? Don't know. Would they do well enough to adapt and do better? Thinking of a way maybe
HLH, can't speak for bamindy, but I'll relate a discussion I had a t the local Bee Club. The discussion was, when to re queen. There were instances where a queen was lost and no way for them to make a new one. (no suitable eggs or larvae) What got me to raise my hand was the blanket "policy" to re queen every two years at least. Not commercial mind you, just back yard beeks like me. I asked why. "For a new fresh Queen for next year." was an answer. I asked why? If the queen is failing, then the beees will supercede her. When they do that you often see a two queen system putting down a lot new bees. For all we know, it is in natures plan for that to happen. I have read Some discussion that queens do their best in their second season. I have one that is in her third What if the "new" queen is not accepted? What if they allow her to start and then supercede her anyway. ( which happened to me a lot There is discussion out there that there are differences in eggs and the bees select the "better ones" for a new queen. LOL, they look alike to me. I'm just no good at grafting. So, I harvest swarm cells if at all possible to raise queens for my nucs. 
All JMHO and what I'm happy with


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## squarepeg

sorry rick. after reading what i posted i can see how that was confusing.

my feeling is that bees that are adapted for my location might not do as well in another, and vice versa.

maybe this holds to a lessor degree when it comes to methodology. i.e. ventilaton, insulation, how many stores for winter, one or two deeps for brood, ect.

yeah, we have gotten away from the op, but that's ok sometimes.


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## kilocharlie

After reading this, it occurs to me it would be a good idea to get my apiary up to a good strong number of hives, perhaps 200, using teatments while learning queen rearing and breeding, then start some of my hives treatment free, willing to sacrifice some to get good strong survivors adapted to my area over several generations. That way I could try out several races of bees and learn different hive/colony management methods, and find out what worked, what did not, and hopefully have some self-sustaining, treatment free bees eventually. To go cold turkey with but few colonies seems as though it could get rather frustrating. Has anyone read Randy Oliver's viewpoint regarding IPM on www.scientificbeekeeping.com ?


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## Paul McCarty

I only have 18 hives right now, but I can safely say the bees that do best are the wild ones I have caught and maintained. The domestic ones never seem to make as strong a hive. The only treatments I have ever done are brood breaks, an occasional smoking with Creosote or juniper for mites (on my starter hives), and feeding for Winter. Once they reach full strength, I have just been letting them go and be bees - splitting and manipulating based on need or to keep them from swarming, unless I want them to swarm. I also bust up my old hives into nucs and start over after about two years. I do not like to import bees from outside the region - I try to avoid queens from other regions too. 

My bees are mostly dark ferals (AMM'ish traits), open mated Russian-feral hybrids, local raised cordovan italian hybrids, and a few carnie based hives. The more Italianish bees stay in the desert, while the more Russianish and true feral bees stay up in the mountains (these I have the most of). My strongest hives are the dark ferals and the Russian-ish bees. They need no teatment at all. I usually don't feed them either, but you really have to watch them close to keep them from swarming. The other breeds I only have a few hives of, and mostly for genetic diversity. They came from local beekeepers.

Treatment free? I don't know. But what I do is definitely NOT what most people seem to do. I use a lot of horizontal langs too (wind won't blow them down, neither will cows - vandals don't know they are hives). Works for me, but most commercial guys would shudder at the thought.


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## wadehump

Amen


bamindy said:


> when people ask me what goes in my hive my answer is "wood". That is it. No treatments, no foundation, no plastics. Which also means i save a bunch of money by not buying stuff others swear by and then spend more money on packages and nucs every spring. I have been treatment free for 5 years and this year went foundationless. Great success this year on all fronts and we had a bumper crop. Letting the bees decide who will be queen and when, what size cell they want, and whether or not they survive is a decision they make on their own. All i do is keep stacking the boxes higher!


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## Che Guebuddha

DLMKA said:


> Our last bee club meeting was all about fall hive treatments. Towards the end we went around and the room and everyone reports on their hives and what they did for treatments. Everyone looked at me like I was an idiot for not doing anything to prop up bees that can't survive on their own.


I feel with you here big time. I was even called an animal abuser for mentioning non-treatment and relying on naturally drawn small cell. Some even told me they are sorry for me living close to them since my non-treated bees will infect their treated hives with more Varroa, some said that Sweden should ban such irresponsible beekeepers as I am etc ...
I dont know about you but I am going undercover guerilla Top Bar Beekeeping


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