# Keeping Colony Counts Up?



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Talking w/ a friend the other day I was somewhat surprised to hear that some of the same people who had CCD problems from early on don't have very many live colonies at this time. It makes me womder why the cause of their decline in colony count hasn't been determined. But, I don't know why colonies of mine are vacant either. So, I guess I shouldn't expect others to have any more a clue than I do.

Are there any other operations of size who would be willing to report their losses here? I had 500 cols and am now down to 400, last time I checked. I know some operations that run a cpl thousand and are down to 600.

Any body else?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Mark it just seems like there is more attrition nowadays than a few years ago. I think that is universal among the beekeepers that I talk to. We start between 4 and 5 thousand nucs each spring and hope to have 2/3 that number a year later and because we still have a lot of really strong colonies keeping your numbers up hasnt been a problem. I can't pin it on any one thing it just seems to be the nature of the business.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I kinda came to the conclusion in my own outfit, that a 1/3 to 1/2 colony loss was the new standard situation. But I know others that maintain a much lower percentage. So what are they doing differently? Maybe it's an accounting thing?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Well....

Me & Jack (Action, beesource handel) is helping me go threw a little over half (2000) with sub feeding. We are seeing around 2.5-3 % loss and avg about 13-15 cluster size.

They are what they eat.

They are what keepers feedem.

Another normal year for me.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

No fair comparing our operation to Keith, everyone knows he is not of this beekeeping world.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

To be fair, parts of Amador County CA get considerable snow fall. 
Now down where I am we only get nightly freezes. almost all of my days are above freezing.


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## jeff123fish (Jul 3, 2007)

Mark, have you moved your hives down south? Are you seeing similar loss rates down there?


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Well....
> They are what they eat.
> They are what keepers feedem.


My dead hives are clogged with natural honey and pollen. I have to extract them for use as bait hives (400lbs. last year). I have been keeping bees in the same area for 40 years with no feeding other than starts. The flower resources where I keep bees have always easily supported 50 or more colonies without any additional feeding. My sites are All You Can Eat Buffets for bees. Bees return loaded with pollen daily year round. This has always been an area where you throw some bees into a box and harvest 150 lbs. of honey. Set out some traps with 95% success. 
Thirty years ago I was surprised to lose two out of twenty-five. My losses the last few years have been 50 and 80 percent. My losses have nothing to do with feeding, the floral resources are the same as ever. Unlike commercial beekeepers, I do not keep hundreds of hives together in barren areas. My wintering problems started four years ago. Populations that are thriving in October crash during periods of cold wet weather. I do not see a lot of mites on the dead hive's bottom boards.
There is a dark cloud in this neighborhood and it is not a nutrition problem. Maybe a virus or combination of problems.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Talking w/ a friend the other day I was somewhat surprised to hear that some of the same people who had CCD problems from early on don't have very many live colonies at this time.


did these people replace the comb from the CCD hives or reuse. although I haven't heard much lately, everyone was running experiments with treating the comb and seeing if the replacement bees would live, and if i remember correctly even radiation wasn't helping. I can comment for two other beeks in new york(don't move hives) and two from Penn(do move hives) all who think they have had or have ccd. all have replaced the comb from the hives and are having better "luck" the last two years, but they have also stopped purchasing queens and started raising there own, only exception is that they will bring in queen cells from a few breaders. there hive failure rate has dropped significantly(although a better indication will be this spring). none are treating for n.c. , all are using formic acid, the Penn. beeks are feeding global patties and fondat to stimulate early for queen rearing.

now if I remember some of your posts, you had n.c. in 2009, not in 2010. same here( i suspect from reading that the better summer and more pollen helped 2010), you had a problem in the spring with your pollination colonies being weak because you split them to hard??(any way to figure out which hives have died), and If I remember correctly you don't requeen your hives except when a queen is failing. Do you purchase the queens you use or make your own. Over the last 3 years the majority of hive failures above have been due to louse purchased queens or starvation or what they think is ccd. I haven't checked mine yet except the ones at the house. mayby this week if it doesn't snow


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## Matt Beekman (Dec 15, 2007)

odfrank said:


> There is a dark cloud in this neighborhood and it is not a nutrition problem. Maybe a virus or combination of problems.


I definitely think viruses have been a big part of higher rates of winter mortality. My $0.02: even if you have low mite and nosema levels and good nutrition, the level and diversity of viruses in a colony can be disproportionately high.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

I know I had really high nosema counts the last three years(last spring was over 15 million spores per bee). The 2009 season I went from 950 down to 750 by the end of the season. By the time they got back from CA(spring 2010) there were less than 500. Of that 500 25% were great, 25% were nothing but a few frames of bees and a queen, 50% were ok but not strong enough to split from. I treated hard with a fumigilin drench and formic acid. I installed 100 packages and made around 100 splits into the deadouts from 2009. That got my count up to around 700(694 I think). At the end of 2010 summer I eliminated the poor ones(mostly queen issues). I treated with fumigilin fall 2010 again. I shipped 648 out to CA and so far only 10 hives have been found that are either dead or have very few bees in them. I haven't looked into those hive but I am willing to bet that those also had queen issues at the end of the season but I didn't notice it because they had decent populations yet.

Was the high nosema count causing my issues? I can't say definately yes but I can say if I didn't treat with fumigilin and formic when I did I wouldn't have half the colonies I do now.

When bloom time in the almonds come around I will be able to make a better judgement on the effectiveness of the treatments.

As to keeping hive numbers up- Have extra nucs in all yards so you can install them into the hives that fail during the summer months.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jeff123fish said:


> Mark, have you moved your hives down south? Are you seeing similar loss rates down there?


Moved them south in Oct. Didn't do anything w/ them then. Had truck troubles and no syrup or patties. Went back after Thanksgiving and that's when I counted the deadouts. When I went to feed.

I don't think location has much to do w/ my losses.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Wildbranch,
I don't know what they do about their combs.

I bought alot of queens last spring, from California mostly. Used some cells too. I don't know which ones died.


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## HVH (Feb 20, 2008)

odfrank said:


> There is a dark cloud in this neighborhood and it is not a nutrition problem. Maybe a virus or combination of problems.


From what I have gleaned, it may be both. It almost seems as though additional feeding helps because something is either wrong with the bee bread or the bees gut is compromised enough to merit extra feeding. It is difficult to see, however, how extra food could help in the case where there is abundant pollen stores unless the pollen stores themselves are harmful. 
Some of the more recent research has suggested that the bee's gut lining appears to have become compromised in some of the die offs. The small RNA fragments found associated with high levels of picornaviruses seem to point to a compromised digestive tract (also N.c.). If this is true, then the pollen substitute might be helping by providing extra nutrition or by enticing the bees away from the stored bee bread. I lean a bit towards the latter because bees have been feeding themselves with natural pollen since before recorded history. The picture that sometimes comes to mind, is the bees concentrating their efforts on the pollen substitute with the side effect being, ignoring the bee bread. It is hard to say what may be wrong with the bee bread but a pathogen load, toxin load or even a shift in the natural flora associated with bee bread could be at work. Of course, fresh pollen enters the hive in the spring and would likely reduce the consumption of bee bread which would also appear as though bees are only being affected in the late fall and winter months when they concentrate on bee bread as their protein source. 
This is all conjecture.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

So last time I checked I lost 27% of my bees this year. Not bad compared to 2009 when I lost 60% of my bees. I dont keep bees full time. I have another gig I do 12 hours a day and beekeeping is done in the limited spare time I have after that. With the live colonies I kept thru the year I still averaged 100 lbs of honey for the year so I am not complaining too much. I dont much feed and I dont much have time to get honey off and treat bees for mites when it should happen. In fact the last 1/3rd will not bee treated for mites until next weekend when I get the last of them to Ga.


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## jeff123fish (Jul 3, 2007)

sqkcrk said:


> I don't think location has much to do w/ my losses.


Yeah thats why I asked though being where you are in the north higher losses might be more common place than somewhere like southern cal


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

Its always odd to me that poster's relating these kinds of losses have no data they present about mite loads during the season. 

Its like a big mystery to them the losses, but like Varroa and the asscociated viruses are still #1 killer of honeybees. You'd think that would be the first thing an experienced beek would look at and then mention that in the post either hinting at mites or dismissing them. 

Me thinks the poster has no or incomplete data on mites. 

Nosema spore counts is another important data point. Nosema shortens worker lifespans and can decimate a hive. Not collecting nosema spore data is a fatal fork in the road also like not doing your mite rolls. 

Whatever, these predictable and never ending kinds of posts about losses are more interesting to readers when its left with an implication of something lurking in the bushes thats a mystery and possibly widespread across the area.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

One question i would ask after the mites and nosema levels would be the weather from 2009 Spring summer and fall.
I don't know how to say this without a book so please bare with me.
Ya'll have heard me spout about weather wreaking havoc on protien fibre and TDN levels in pollen. Flooding, drought, does not matter what it affects the pollen's protien and the ability for the bees to digest it.
I am going to use to visual aids. In all honesty, i know cows better than i know bees, jsut because of the number of years in each enterprise. So, sorry I know a bee forum but I can explain it better with cows. So cow poop picks it is. Click on the link please if you want. I am using these pics because our bees forage where the cows get their winter feed. It stands to reason, both are eating or foraging from the same plants. If your bees are foraging in areas where there is more cropping, pretty much dollars for donuts, the pollen will be simillar to the grade of the crops. Poor crops, poor pollen. High toxicity in the crops from too much rain or drought will be the same in the pollen. Poor weather affects crops and can really do a number on a cow's health. The poor quality crops can kill a cow because of mold or spores or vomitoxins (sp)

http://s256.photobucket.com/albums/hh162/rockridgecattle/?action=view&current=IMG_0785.jpg

This is a pic of cows with not enough protien and too much undigestable fibre. It is hard lumpy and looks like the cow is dehydrated. But i can asure you she is not. This is the majority of the poop in the herd. What I am trying to get at is....undigested fibre would be the consistency of straw, and only filler. It takes energy to process what they can from the food, and yet they are still not being met nutritionally because what little protien they get will not meet the energy requirements for brood production and other jobs in the hive. Essentially they burn the fat off their backs to make up for lost engery and end up starving themselves...even though they are eating.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh162/rockridgecattle/IMG_0788.jpg

This pic is a pic of a cow who is getting close to the proper nutrition. It's not the best, she could still be a bit runnier but it is close. Cow poop should be firm and yet runny. Need straw underneath it when forking. Here this cow is getting close to the fibre and the protien and the TDN is close to what she needs that she will not have to tap into the reserves on her back if weather and health conditions are normal for this time of year. She will not be eating a tonne and starving at the same time.

How does this apply to bees. Well, flower pollen and nectar are only as good as the soil and weather which grows it. If the soil is defiecient in minerals or vitamins, or if the weather is not favorable, no amout of pollen is going to keep the fat on the bees backs.
Another observation. And i mean no disrespect to any beek here who keeps honey in their hives or who feeds syrup....this is just my 2 cents.
Surcrose and HFCS have one advantage over honey. That advantage is there is no protien in it. Straight carbs for energy. This means little or no waste (poop). However, honey has some pollen in the mix. When digested, if it is normal good pollen, not a problem. But if the pollen is poor quality, alot of undigestable fiber, it could provide more waste, but since it is undigested, block up the bees becasue they go for periods of time without cleansing due to weather. In reality it constipate them. Just some random thoughts here. And maybe this is the reason why some who supplement pollen, where the TDN, fibre and protien are established, makes some of a difference in bee survival. 

Watching them poop is hard to do. Catching pics of how they poop is in reality not an option. Only thing we can do is make a best guess based on what we see. And what we see is how was the weather and how are the plants growing. Leggy plants mean the plants are not getting what they need to produce properly. Stocky plants same thing. Plants short on leaves same. Turning yellow stock or leaves or veins, same thing. Smell....do they smell like they should? Our hay fields for miles and miles since it is the 4th year of flooding smelt like our septic field...that is not going to produce well at all.
Many years ago the ground could supply the nutritent all livestock needed for survival. I am talking about vitamins and minerals. As a cattle producer, I am told not to be dependant on the feed supplying that now. We add it as a supplement to our cows to prevent a whole host of problems, illnesses and diseases as well as birthing problems. Vit A, Calcium and mag and phosphorus are not in abundance like it use to be. Our soils are iodine and selenium deficient. If the soil is deficient, so are the plants. Some areas like NY are more deficient in Selenium that other areas. Our area is very deficient in iodine. This leads to problems in cows. Why can it not lead to problems in bees as well.

Finally, bees who are not being met nutritionally will be more suspetible to disease, viruses, both nosemas and mites. If we can some how fix this, I think we will be able to get those losses under control...minding the monitoring of mites and nosema and doing something about it accordingly in what ever manner a beek sees fit (how's that for PC? )


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

So, Bud D., what's the standard for testing?.

Please post your protocal so I can be a better beek.

And I want specifics as to dates, # of samlpes and for what.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I often question the value of checking mite loads thru sampling bees. Especially if you know you have mites and you aren't going to treat colonies until the honey is off. So, what's the point?

If one is planning on selective sampling and then treating after the honey is off you don't need to know mite loads because treatments are the same for light, medium or heavy loads.

Otherwise one would have to check every colony to see whether they are worth treating or not.

So, how many mites per 100 bees isn't worth treating? Let's say the sampling is done in October when honey is taken off. What number of mites would be a number at which the colony isn't worth treating?

Does anyone check hives in Aug. or Sept. and then move the honey off of the ones they feel should be treated and then treat them?


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## Nick Noyes (Apr 28, 2005)

What are your mite loads when treated in october?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

odfrank said:


> My dead hives are clogged with natural honey and pollen.There is a dark cloud in this neighborhood and it is not a nutrition problem.


" it is not a nutrition problem'

How do you know this to be true?

Have you ever read up on the mid gut lining?

Just because the hive is loaded with pollen stores, NOOP... can't be from the lack of pollen.


Do me a favor, put a frame LOADED with pollen in the hive & put in a pollen patty.

When you do this, come back and tell me which is eaten at a 400% plus rate over the other.

I give up, CCD it is.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

"I often question the value of checking mite loads thru sampling bees. Especially if you know you have mites and you aren't going to treat colonies until the honey is off. So, what's the point?"

The point is that testing forces you to make a choice. Suppose in mid July you do a random alcohol shake test on say 20% of the hives in a yard and find several with high levels. Now you have to assume that there are other hives at threshold or over, but you don't know which ones they are because its not practical to test everything.So if you leave the supers on to catch a flow, you know you are going to lose all those hives that are on the edge.They aren't going to make it till Sept.If you pull the supers, they may plug out and shut the queens down and you lose the crop you might have made. If there is no late flow(like in this part of CA) then anything gathered will be better off in the broodnest.That is why we need something that will kill mites between flows but will not contaminate the honey crop



"Does anyone check hives in Aug. or Sept. and then move the honey off of the ones they feel should be treated and then treat them?"

Like I said the choice here is the devil and the deep blue sea. But yes I will pull supers to save the bees.Every time I tried for the late crop , I lost the bees.
__________________


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

I disagree with Keith: Stationary Northern beeks don't need pollen patties like western beeks since we have an unbeleiveable availability of pollen from March into October. We also have very diverse sources of nectar that may not make surplus but offer the bees good nutrition and winter stores. 

We send samples in for nosema and also have a scope and do our own testing. Most yards have at least one data point every 18 months. We try and not move any bees or equipment between yards so we can isolate problems down to a specific yard rather then spread problems in spring. 

We use Marla Spivaks protocol for mite testing. 

http://www.extension.umn.edu/honeybees/components/pubs.htm

We test in spring (may) and august, finding that Sept mite counts are too late to turn the bees around before winter. 

Rather then focus always on the mites per 100 bees, keep good records and use the numbers as a way to look back and see what lived and what dies. If you have no data you have no clue what role mites play in your hives counts. 

What you CA beeks who were ready to rip me maybe don't realize is high mite loads mean weak winter bees that hatch in sept and oct. Losses happen quickly here in the north, the first wave of mite weakenend hives going dead happens before the end of the year, so I suspected from the timing of Marks post that he is seeing that first wave. Later winter losses are due often to clusters not wanting to move and abandon brood. Prolonged late cold spells can cause starvation even with good pollen and honey stores. 

Maybe you can coast your bees in CA through winter with mite weakened bees but at minus 15F it quickly cuts out of the weakened populations. 

We also have powdered sugar and a simple quart jar with screen we carry in all bee trucks. A quick way to do a sugar roll and see if you have problems at any time of the season. I don't need to count mites when I see a lot of them earlier in the season. 

Mite kills in the north happen from Sept to December. 

How can you argue with the concept of if you don't do ANY mite rolls you are clueless about your bees? Duh...

Find me a researcher I can call or email that disagrees that Varroa mites are the number 1 direct or indirect (viruses) cause for honeybee losses. I challenge anyone to find me a researcher for me to call that disagrees with that opinion.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Bud Dingler said:


> I disagree with Keith:What you CA beeks who were ready to rip me


Hey Bud, who's doing the rippen? 

BTW, mid gut walls are alot of the problem. The bees HAVE TO EAT NOT STORE THE POLLEN.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Bud Dingler said:


> I disagree with Keith: Stationary Northern beeks don't need pollen patties like western beeks since we have an unbeleiveable availability of pollen from March into October. We also have very diverse sources of nectar that may not make surplus but offer the bees good nutrition and winter stores.


And here i disagree with you. Sorry. We also have diverse and unbelieveable pollen sources here. Our bees are also stationary. AND we need to feed pollen! I am in the heart of cattle country manitoba. We have maples, dandilions, willows, wild flowers, clover, alflafa, some canola, mustard, weeds and more weeds. 
BUT poor weather = poor pollen quality. They go hand in hand. Plants under stress do not produce the way they should. Instead of more protien, the pollen has more undigestable fibre. This makes the pollen the consistency of straw for a lack of a better discription. 
Just because you have an abundance does not mean that it is quality. Low quality will cause them to eat and eat and eat and still lose the fat on their backs because they will have to to tap into their body reserves. And that only lasts so long.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Without very good varroa control, no amount of syrup and sub is going to bring the hives back , especially with viruses and Nosema C running rampant. It no longer takes thousands of varroa to crash the hives like it did when the mites first showed up. Hundreds will do it!


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Bud Dingler said:


> ...high mite loads mean weak winter bees that hatch in sept and oct. Losses happen quickly here in the north, the first wave of mite weakenend hives going dead happens before the end of the year, so I suspected from the timing of Marks post that he is seeing that first wave. Later winter losses are due often to clusters not wanting to move and abandon brood. Prolonged late cold spells can cause starvation even with good pollen and honey stores.
> 
> Maybe you can coast your bees in CA through winter with mite weakened bees but at minus 15F it quickly cuts out of the weakened populations.
> 
> ...


And that is what we see here as well. 

Mites are hard on the hives. Testing and treating here go hand in hand pretty much and sometimes we need to sacrifice the last part of the flow in order to get that hive healthy for winter...or we shake out the healthy bees and let them find a home.
The pollen stores can help a huge amount when it comes to survival of the bees in this area. Give them help on the nutrition and it can give them the strength to fight and overcome the diseases that follow more quickly reducing the time to rebound. It gives them a leg up in the fight. Lets face it. Mites increase the disease levels. Bees which are stressed from mites, need added nutrition to help and aid in the fight of the onslaught of diseases. Its the same in humans and the same in cows and the same in sheep, chickens and pigs.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Nick Noyes said:


> What are your mite loads when treated in october?


Some 5 orless, others 10 or less, a 15, but mostly didn't check very many.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Etther roll, alcohol wash, or powder sugar shake? How many bees per sample?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> I often question the value of checking mite loads thru sampling bees. Especially if you know you have mites and you aren't going to treat colonies until the honey is off. So, what's the point?
> 
> Does anyone check hives in Aug. or Sept. and then move the honey off of the ones they feel should be treated and then treat them?


I check mine in early august, i also keep track of when I start seeing dwv and test right after that. the last three years I pulled my honey the first week of sept and treated because I was seeing high mite loads on the tested hives. the only hives I lost were due to queen problems. my partner, until this year, wouldn't pull his honey until the end of sept, extract and then go back and put his mitecide on, he also lost 50% of his hives each of the last two years and we treat the hives almost identicaly. this year he pulled his honey 10 days early and we treated the hives at the same time we were pulling the honey. I'll let you know in the spring how he did.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

2010 I treated my hives with formic acid soaked shop towels at the end of may. It was placed under the honey supers and the temp was 70-80 when the towels were applied and the following days. I found 3 colonies that may have had the queen killed by the formic but I'm not definate that was the cause. 2010 is the first year I didn't see any DWV in the last 5 years. When I am extracting I always fork out drone brood to look for mites and I always look at drone brood that gets exposed in burr comb when inspecting hives. I didn't see more than 3 mites all summer of 2010 with those visual inspections. Previous years they were always there and my thinking was that it was normal and I just had to deal with it. Those May applications of formic sure made a difference over just doing the treatment in March or April before any supers are put on.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Beeslave said:


> Etther roll, alcohol wash, or powder sugar shake? How many bees per sample?


The NYS Apiary Inspector did the sampling. I'm not sure, but I believe he did ether rolls. That's mostly how we did it when I Inspected for NYS. I don't know how many he had in each jar. About an inch and a half in a pint jar is how I was trained. I wasn't on site when the samples were taken.

I hope that helps/


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## Sweet to the Soul (Sep 1, 2010)

Beeslave said:


> 2010 I treated my hives with formic acid soaked shop towels at the end of may.


Would you mind sharing what % formic you were using for the treatment.
Thanks
Kevin


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Hey Bud!!! What's the pay out on this challenge? I'm in if the money is right. 

Roland


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

65% Formic. 

As much as the towel would hold without dripping. My entrances range from 5/8"-3/4" H X 2"-6" L. I left them that way and made sure the rest of the hive was closed up the best I could by nialing the lids down good. Most colonies had the towel chewed out when I checked them 12 days later. That is also when I checked all hives for fresh eggs and nice fed larva.

Hives I had at my house were checked 3 days after application. The towel had no smell of formic left in it when I covered my nose with it and breathed in deeply. I tasted the honey from the super directly above the pad and the top brood box(6 5/8") below it. There was no off flavor or any hint that the formic altered the flavor.

This was my experience 1 time. Others may have a different outcome.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

double post


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

loggermike said:


> Without very good varroa control, no amount of syrup and sub is going to bring the hives back , especially with viruses and Nosema C running rampant.


But, if you feed the right sub Nosema is a non issue.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Is that a secret ingredient in that 1 special sub that combats the nosema or is it the combination of all ingredients in any good sub that combats the nosema.

If it is 1 secret ingredient what is it for those who don't need to feed subs.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

i have done a treatment simillar to this. We call it the flash treatment. 65% formic and 60-70 mls (cc), on a blue shop towel. This is very temp dependant. Too cool and will nto work well. Too hot and look out. Our day time temp was 25C sun and cloud and rained alot. I placed the blue shop towel on the bottom board on cardboard. Easy in easy out.
Results:
June all hives recieved Mite Away 2. However temps were not high enough to obtain good results 5 days later, did the flash treatment

Done July 1
little brood damage. Mites killed in the cells as well as the ones on the bees. 
Major mite drops like I had never seen before. To many to count and that was after 24 hours. Did not open the hive for 5 days after treatment
40 hives
5 queen losses--- of those hives, three were older queens and two were already in the works of superceding her (supercedure cell present at passed the 5 day old mark. These hives the bees were shaken out and tore down. Frames were examined for healthy brood. Anything that was not healthy was not inserted into any hives
35 queens survived. Of these hives, it looked like the queen shut down for about 1-3 days. Eggs were present but no young hatched larva or at best very few. Queens were either fresh in May or they were 1 year old. 

Of the 35 hives at Sept 7
25 were viable for winter. I firmly believe, has i used the flash treatment sooner, the dead or weak hives would have faired better. Diseased bees were already visable when flashed. I new i had a mite problem in May, but I waited to long for the weather to clear and warm up to apply the Mite away 2. In the end the temps did not climb enough for it to work any how. But wow on that flash treatment

i would not do this with supers on, remove and replace the next day. Formic, Mite away 2 has a 14 day no extract withdrawal. But that is not the only reason why i would not have supers on. Confining the bees to one or two brood boxes would ensure the fumigation would be sufficient. More space, more space to fumigate, not as concentrated.
As well thinking of using the Mite away 2 rings and the riser sticks and placing the formic on the the top bars since formic is heavier than air. Only thing is more labor intensive.

This treatment, doing for the first time scared the crap out of me. I thought what am i doing, and just after using formic for three weeks. However, had i not, i dunno if any of the hives would have survived. Only time will tell if they make the winter.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

The bees for me were just starting to store surplus in the supers. None of it was capped. That added moisture to the hive that may have weakend the formics strength. I wanted the extra hive space because the temps were 70-80 daytime and I would have caused way to many nectar plugged broodnests causing more management work than neccassary. Formic vapors drop instead of rise I believe.

Research I did last spring before doing the Formic treatment showed that Formic may also cleanse the hive of unwanted pathogens/virus/disease.


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

to me the value of doing mite testing is to have records to look at if losses occur. 

its impossible to get everything done sometimes in summer and fall. some treatments get missed or not followed up a 2nd time etc. sometimes treatments do not work for some reason. therefore even mite data can be misleading.

so to me the actual mite counts are not as important as having some ongoing data you can compare in spring with other notes about the bees. you end up seeing patterns and learning from your actions or inactions over time.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Beeslave said:


> Formic vapors drop instead of rise I believe.
> 
> Research I did last spring before doing the Formic treatment showed that Formic may also cleanse the hive of unwanted pathogens/virus/disease.


I too have heard that the vapors drop because formic is heavier than air. Have you thought on just a 24 hour treatment. When we pulled the towels out after 24 hours the smell was amazingly significantly reduced. This leads me to believe that any longer would not be really necessary for the short term treatment, leaving room for a full treatment in the fall. Add to that, supers pulled for day would be better than the risk especially in our customers eyes. 
Because of how our flows are, fast and furious, we did it albeit out of necessity, the day before the supers went on...just because of the wet weather for the past 8 weeks. When i went into the hives 5 days later, no smell and no visible varroa like there was before. Pulled apart capped drone cells and for the varroa not a pretty sight. None were moving

I also have heard of formic's cleansing properties via one of the bee higher up researchers.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

a post copied from bee-l submitted by peter l. borst

The new report out on 2009-2010 colony losses has some interesting observations:

Sideliner and hobby beekeepers rank the causes of their bee losses as 1) starvation; 2) weather; 3) "weak in fall"; 4) mites; and 5) queen.

Commercial beekeepers rank the causes of their bee losses as 1) queens; 2) mites; 3) pesticides; 4) CCD; 5) starvation. 

Nosema was ranked number 6 in all categories.

Reported losses among these groups were: Sideliners lost 45%; hobby beekeepers lost 50%; commercial beekeepers reported losing about 33%.

Journal of Apicultural Research 50(1): 1-10 (2011)


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Beeslave said:


> Formic vapors drop instead of rise I believe.


its heavier than air but I had a deep over the inner cover with feeders on and a double screen over the feeders, the screens were (and i emphisize were made out of metal) so the movement of the air from the bees fanning sent the acid vapors up to the top of the deep, thats why on the directions to a apply miteawayII they say to put tape over the hole in the inner cover.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Medhat Nasr post on bee-l on high colony kills. 




This is true after 3 years of surveying colonies in the field and testing possible causes of high colony kill. Colony health was restored by applying effective varroa and nosema controls on time. Lagers who did not do their job on time lost over 40%. Beekeepers who were on the top of their business had < 15%.


http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1101&L=BEE-L&F=&S=&P=184831


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

[QUOTE Colony health was restored by applying effective varroa and nosema controls on time. Lagers who did not do their job on time lost over 40%. Beekeepers who were on the top of their business had < 15%.

This person indicates that somehow persons like myself who wish to produce a product not tainted with medicines and toxic chemicals, "did not do their job on time", are "lagers" and not "on top of their business".

I realize that I am no longer a bee"keeper", but more of a bee"loser" or beehive "starter guy", or "bait hive catcher dude". But I still do a lot of work on my bees, do it promptly and efficiently, and produce as much crop as I did in the past and am making more money on it than I did in the past. I have adapted to a diffficult situation, produce a cleaner and safer product than many, and do not condone the author using these kind of derogatory terms.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Couldnt get the link to work but if the premise is timely treatments are better than untimely ones then my first hand experiences would confirm this as well. We try to get things done on time but unfortunately at times we are "lagers", I have found that when I get down over this situation that the only solution is a good cold "lager" at the end of the day.


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

odfrank said:


> This person indicates that somehow persons like myself who wish to produce a product not tainted with medicines and toxic chemicals, "did not do their job on time", are "lagers" and not "on top of their business".


lol, Medhat has a point; and clearly if you dont use chemicals, then you aren't a 'lager' or any other form of delaying and putting off chemical use, on the contrary, you're a risk taker, a gambler. Sure sure, some researchers love that stuff, but I've found my mite resistant bees which are untreated tend to die at much higher rates than my treated konas. It's just dollars and sense. If you can afford pkgs every spring, you sir, are not a lager, you're just a niche market.


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## Skinner Apiaries (Sep 1, 2009)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Me & Jack (Action, beesource handel) is helping me go threw a little over half (2000) with sub feeding. We are seeing around 2.5-3 % loss and avg about 13-15 cluster size.


You are once again shameless, but I wish we could get your stuff over on the right coast; keep doing what you're doing


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

People who take statements personally do so because they know deep down that those statements are valid. They are also not meant as personal critisism, so don't getcher panties in a wad. Take in the idea and see if you can find useful instruction in it. If not, it doesn't apply to you.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Skinner Apiaries said:


> You are once again shameless,


lol... would pictures help? Just kidding.

We really need to get away from the box haulers & lid flippers and get "BACK" to good ole fashion beekeeping.It still works.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

I fixed the link to medhats post and it should work now, at least it did last time I tried it. I'm sure he meant nothing by the word Lagers(molsons), id have to ask the beeks north of the border, I'm guessing thats just the way he talks.


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## Daniel Wasson (Jun 2, 2010)

Good point about not taking personally a comment made about an action you are not guilty of participating in.

Better spelling, and understanding of words would have helped here too. "Lagger" not 'lager' was the word that should have been used, implying someone being behind for what ever reason. "Laggard" would have been accusatory and possibly offensive, if used/intended to be, implying someone to lazy to perform a needed operation in a timely fashion.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

All this lager talk is making me mighty thirsty.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

lol...


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