# American Foulbrood



## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

Is there any Organic method of controling AFB. I would like to quit using Tylosine. I reguarly Sterilize brood combs with E-beam irradiation and discard old combs. And we seem to keep our rAFB situation in control. 

I was wondering if any one is playing with bacterial phages?

Or is there an organic acid that can be used in a live hive to control AFB spores?

With labs being able to detect to the parts per trillion, going drug free is the future of bee keeping.


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

Terry Gr---- <Caspian Solution has been used to treat AFB since 1986 in Iran, and was introduced in Canada in year 2000. Studies have been conducted in both countries with consistently successful results.>
Google Search-Caspian Apiaries


Terry


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

I have used "Caspian Solution" Hussain the person that makes the stuff recomended me to mix some antibiotics into it.

I think it is a great product. though somewhat over priced.

Make sure there is plenty of pollon available when feeding the solution.


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## Terry G (Feb 6, 2005)

Hussain has shown me his Bee hives. I have seen a perfect healthy brood pattern on 1 side of a frame and the other side completly full of viable AFB scale. This frame came from a healthy single story hive with 5 frames of bees and brood in early April. He claimed to have only supplimented his bees with Caspian Solution, and some sugar water.

I was quite impressed after seeing this.

Here is the link
http://www.caspianapiaries.com/


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

There actually is an organic way of controlling AFB, at least in theory. Keep hygeinic bees. All the evidence I've seen suggests that people have, occasionally, developed fully resistant strains. There probably needs to be more effort in this direction, but under current circumstances all the attention is obviously devoted to Varroa.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think the varroa will help though. Hygenic bees may chew out both varroa and AFB and in the end will benefit in more ways than one. My guess is by breeding for perfect brood patterns we bred out hygenic behavior.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

I heard from beekeepers on this forum that many treating with antibiotics against AFB. I dont know about UK but the German government has strong regulations and the same in Switzerland. Both countries have 0 tolerances for antibiotics in honey.

What is the honey price in the US and Kanada?

China is back on the German honey marked since last year. After all the trouble with china honey in the past they offered a bottling company 10,000 tons china honey per year, unbelievable cheap, the price I heard from the news is between $700 and $900 US dollar per ton. They are smart and know we have several big bottling factories. 

Institutes already have honey samples for testing and no complain so far.


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

In the UK, AFB is a notifiable diease, and any infected hive has to be burnt. It has its good side; it's a fairly rare disease here.


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

American Foulbrood in German
http://mkat.iwf.de/mms/metafiles/02000020250120000000_lo.asx


Terry


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Terry G said:


> Is there any Organic method of controling AFB. I would like to quit using Tylosine. I reguarly Sterilize brood combs with E-beam irradiation and discard old combs. And we seem to keep our rAFB situation in control.
> 
> I was wondering if any one is playing with bacterial phages?
> 
> ...


This is a post from when Adam was a boy - any news on phages??


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Treating AFB with anything, is essentially, farming it.

The proof of that is what has happened to some operations that treated for it, if for some reason like the death of the beekeeper, treatment was stopped.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> Treating AFB with anything, is essentially, farming it.
> 
> The proof of that is what has happened to some operations that treated for it, if for some reason like the death of the beekeeper, treatment was stopped.


I keep an open mind.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4535585/
I think some of the limited research is positive but far from conclusive.

I don't have AFB ( as far as I know and I do check) but it is in my area.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

max2 said:


> This is a post from when Adam was a boy - any news on phages??


 No


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

max2 said:


> but it is in my area.


 Lurking? Varroa/Virus kills colonies before AFB gets a chance to crop up. 

As far as an organic method of AFB control I would say visual inspection of brood combs and not buying used equipment (comb). I haven't used TM or Tylosin for decades and I haven't come across a case of AFB in my own outfit for three or four years. It's easier for me to find it and burn it than it is to get my hands on antibiotics and use them.


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## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

I second no antibiotics. Burn any infected colonies. Maintain hygienic / disease resistant lines.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> I haven't come across a case of AFB in my own outfit for three or four years.


Just curious Sqkcrk how you see the AFB situation, are the big players still treating for it or has there been a move away from drugs and towards burning and irradiation? And if so how has that affected the amount of AFB?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> Just curious Sqkcrk how you see the AFB situation, are the big players still treating for it or has there been a move away from drugs and towards burning and irradiation? And if so how has that affected the amount of AFB?


Here in NY there hardly is any Apiary Inspection, so knowing how any practice has affected AFB is hard to determine. As far as what most commercial outfits do, I have no reason to think that they don't still do what they have always done, treat for AFB with antibiotics, even though getting antibiotics is harder than it used to be.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

OK, thanks.


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## Saskie (Mar 12, 2017)

When we had an outbreak in my area, the AFB got a very strong hold on many colonies that had varroa under control. Healthy colonies are just as susceptible as the weak ones, and the infection can get well out of hand before the colonies show any signs of being weakened.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

I am pretty new to beekeeping (2yrs) but I thought that no matter if you have one hive or 1,000, if you encounter a hive with AFB you burn it immediately. I know that it is mandatory here in Vermont. Is it permissible to treat it in other states or countries? I didn't know that there was an effective treatment. J


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

I think that antibiotics can be used to suppress the disease, but you are only delaying the inevitable —- antibiotics can’t destroy the spores that are responsible for the spread. I think burning and then burying the remnants is the only real solution. Maybe you can kill the bees and then you can scorch the boxes,bottom and top and burn all frames, comb, etc.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

We are not allowed to use antibiotics here. AFB happens often, the equippement is burned, the bees are saved and given new hives if possible. Spores are everywhere so the outbreaks are because the bees are weak.
The killing of bees is of no use because AFB will never be eliminated entirely.
After the burning every colony in a registration area of 5 km is controlled. After winter the registration ends after a second check by the bee inspector.

Because this happens often the law introduced a special certificate for migrating.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

To me, the bees are the easiest thing to replace, why mess with saving them and risk continuing the disease. Sure it works most of the time but it does not work every time.

There's the risk, and there's the work of doing it.

Put it this way. If somebody offered to give you some bees and an old queen that they said were taken from a hive infected with AFB, would you take them and put them in a new hive? I sure as heck wouldn't.

When AFB first came to my country the beekeepers were caught unawares and it spiralled out of control. There were no laws about bees at that time, everyone just did whatever they wanted. Nobody knows the exact figure but it is thought that at it's worst, something around 30% of the hives in the country had AFB. Then the govt legislated that infected hives must be burned, but you were allowed to save the bees. AFB started to get under control but beekeepers noticed that some of the bees they had saved got AFB again in a few months. Eventually the beekeepers lobbied the government to make it illegal to save the bees from an infected hive. Only then did AFB drop to a very low percentage of hives.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

How do you know the bees you purchase are healthy just the moment they are packed if you never saw the brood combs?
Bees are not always checked thoroughly by the inspector, not even if they have a certificate! 

But I do not fear that problem, I would take them but I would isolate them first and consider the managements, perhaps shift the queen or try to find out why they are weak.
I would take them because i can´t escape the spores, they are present in every lab test you try here.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

SiWolKe said:


> But I do not fear that problem, I would take them but I would isolate them first and consider the managements, perhaps shift the queen or try to find out why they are weak.


Perhaps you would. But that would all be work, time, and risk, to save a few handfuls of bees. As a commercial beekeeper it would not be a viable investment.

I have heard of commercials doing shook swarming from an afb hive while also feeding them antibiotics. This may be viable from a time perspective because the antibiotics would suppress the disease long enough to get spores down to a non symptomatic level with no residual spores hidden in equipment cos the equipment is all new. But all the same, I'd rather just make a split from a healthy hive.

When you have actually burned a few hives your caution level may go up.

Over here afb spores cannot be found in some hives, yet there is a much denser bee population than Germany plus a lot of migratory beekeeping. Perhaps that demonstrates the value of our methods, such as not saving bees from infected hives.

I have often heard it said that there are AFB spores in every hive. Just, nobody has ever proved that, nor does it have to be true. A more accurate statement would be that afb spores might be in a hive, and that hive might not develop the symptomatic disease. But this does not mean every hive has the spores.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> When AFB first came to my country the beekeepers were caught unawares and it spiralled out of control.


When was that OT? Did someone import bees? Is the recent outbreak near Hawks Bay under control?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> A more accurate statement would be that afb spores might be in a hive, and that hive might not develop the symptomatic disease. But this does not mean every hive has the spores.


I agree. And, even if you could find some miniscule number of spores in a hive, that doesn't mean the colony would contract AFB. The window of opportunity, for AFB to start in the brood is very small. The susceptible larvae have to be within a few hours of a certain age, and they have to be fed enough spores to become infected...I believe I've read it takes about 35 spores.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> When was that OT? Did someone import bees? Is the recent outbreak near Hawks Bay under control?


 Nobody knows how it got here but the first bees that came here did not have AFB and the disease was unknown here for some time and thus nobody was on the lookout for it. Further bee importations were not regulated by law so at some point the disease arrived, and was first recorded in 1877. Only after it had really taken hold and beekeeping was becoming uneconomic was the need realised that laws governing beekeeping were needed, to force the uncooperative to comply with reasonable practise.

http://www.afb.org.nz/history-of-afb

Re the recent outbreak in Hawkes Bay, it is now being controlled via govt inspections of all hives, plus burning everything found. However because a large number of hives were involved due to the activities of more than one small commercial beekeepers who have spread infection via robbing to many other beekeepers, my feeling is it will take two or three years to really see the end of this outbreak.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

An interesting topic and opinions.
Two years ago an AFB area was near me, 5 km distance. An old sideliner commercial beekeeper had stored empty brood combs containing honey in his basement and the neighbor bees had access to this. All his equipment was burned, he himself had given away his bees because he finished beekeeping and the robbers and brood combs spread the disease to the new owners.
When the veterinary took control of the area they found many hives that were not registrated so there was some action. Every beekeeper had to send samples to the lab, there were spores, but no outbreak.
The attitudes to such disease changed and the bee inspector himself started to save the bees if he detects an outbreak early in year.
But this is in my country area, every registration area can decide the actions.
Perhaps this is because we get insurance money through our registration.
Since we are not permitted to use antibiotics if we sell honey, EFB is not really a problem and AFB starts to be regarded as no catastrophe but as a sign of bad managements and carelessness.
I believe there is some resistance to these brood diseases. The varroosis is much more a problem.

But you are right OT, it would be hard on me if my hives were burned in autumn because then the bees are burned too. Too late in year to start anew.


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## rmdial (Jun 30, 2009)

I have heard a couple long time beeks suggest shaking all bees into a completely undrawn hive setup and keep them confined for about a week. Then transfer them over to a hive with drawn comb and feed them. The theory is AFB is honey and comb residing so after they relieve themselves they are free and can go back to normal. I have never heard anyone else propose this or use it. Anyone else heard of this. Pardon me if I did get some of the details wrong buy this is the general idea. One mentioned to put them in dark room but I wondered about screening them in.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes it's called shook swarming and antibiotics are sometimes fed to the bees to help the process.

But in my country it was found that it worked most of the time, but not every time, the new hive would sometimes develop AFB a few months later. Because of this it was decided that shook swarming was not helping with the goal of eradicating AFB, so shook swarming is now illegal in my country.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

IMO Shook swarm by itself does not work. Might also be why it's illegal in New Zealand 

"Transmission of European foul brood disease by package bees"

In April 1964, 15 1-kg. packages of honeybees shaken from colonies infected with European foul brood and 15 1-kg. packages shaken from non-infected colonies were transported 1300 km, and installed in sterile equipment with new frames and foundation. All colonies derived from infected colonies developed E.F.B., whereas all those derived from non-infected colonies remained healthy. The disease did not appear until 5 wks. after packages were hived, and therapeutics given as soon as packages are installed should prevent build-up of infection to a level that causes disease.

"Transmission of American foul brood by package bees"

In May, 1965, 9 1-kg packages of honeybees were shaken from healthy colonies (group A), and 7 from colonies infected with American foul brood (group B). They were then transported from southern British Columbia to Beaverlodge, Alberta, and installed in sterile equipment with new frames and foundation. Six weeks after installation the 8 colonies remaining from group A remained free of-Afb, but 4 of the 6 remaining in group B were infected. Rigid inspection of the colonies from which package bees are shaken is therefore recommended, together with preventive feeding on installation, in order to prevent the spread of Afb to disease-free areas.

* the source keep changing if you need to find the full study just search the title of the study.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Nice research FlowerPlanter. 

That's what I like about Beesource. There will often be someone either with expertise in a field, or just prepared to take the time to ferret down and get to the truth of a matter. So much better than the uninformed stuff that gets put around on some sites.


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