# Over-wintered Queens



## TWall

In Beekeeping at Buckfast Abby Br Adam states they requeened approx 2/3 of their hives every spring with queens over-wintered in mating nucs. The mating nucs were left in "severe" conditions to help select only the strongest queens.

Does anyone do anything similar in the US, or anywhere else?

Tom


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## Specialkayme

I just finished Brother Adams book a few weeks ago, and moved on to his second book "In search of the best strain of bee." The first one was so good I decided to read all three of his. I'm happy to see a question about his methods, as I think we can all learn something from his books.

As far as re-queening from overwintered nucs, that is in part what the MDA Splitter technique of re-queening, or OTS (On The Spot) Queen Rearing, emphasizes. However, the MDA technique emphasizes the importance of using FALL bred queens. The author believes that queens produced after the "Change of Days" in the summer produces queens that create more brood. Thus, to the MDA you overwinter all your nucs (or as many as possible) from queens you made in the fall. In a sense, you re-queen the fall before. Not exactly the same, but a similar method.

I'm planning on trying a similar method as Brother Adam, although I don't think I'll be shooting for a requeen rate of 2/3. I was shooting for between 1/4 and 1/3 to start with, and see how it goes.

I'm not familiar with anyone (commercially) that uses the strict Brother Adam approach, but look forward to finding someone who does.


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## Michael Palmer

Brother Adam wintered his nucs and used the queens in his requeening...leaving the nuc. 

I do similarly, but use the nuc. If you look at wintering nucs as wintering queens instead of future production colonies...

...from p.20, The Sustainable Apiary

Nucleus colonies are the building blocks of your apiary. These honey bee colonies in miniature, that wintered in your apiary, are the foundation upon which a successful management plan can be built and should be looked at in a number of ways. 
Primarily, they will be used to replace your winter losses. They make wonderful new colonies come spring, healthy and productive. With your own nukes, you don’t have to buy replacement bees, as you raised your own bees last summer in your own apiary.
You know, we’ve always been told that we can't raise queens in the north, early in the season. We have to buy our queens from southern breeders in states like Texas, California, Alabama, Florida, and Georgia, because we can’t raise queens early enough in the season to make up our new colonies. True enough.

If you were to look at your overwintering nucleus colonies as overwintering queens, and not think of them as future production colonies, guess what? You can have your own queens in the north, in April. You can have young queens; young mated laying queens here in April, because you raised them last summer when the conditions were ideal, and over wintered them in your apiary. 

Suppose you have a colony in your apiary that's not building up well. It only has a couple frames of brood. The dandelions are coming on and it's not nearly as strong as the other colonies that have seven and eight and ten frames of brood. Maybe you should give them just one more chance? Might they not come around? 

Get rid of that crummy old queen and unite the colony with one of your nukes. By giving it one of your nucleus colonies, you not only give it a young queen you raised last summer, you also add the additional frames of bees and brood from the nuke. You didn’t have to rob frames of brood from a stronger colony. You didn’t have to buy a queen. You had your new queen all along. She was already there, laying in your nuke.


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## Specialkayme

I'm not familiar with "The Sustainable Apiary." An Amazon and Abebooks search came up with nothing. Can you give us a little more information on this book?


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## TWall

Mike,

The parts that were new to me were the small size of the overwintering nuc and the intent to requeen more than half of his colonies annually.

Have you ever overwintered queens in a nuc smaller than 4 deep frames? I'm guessing your winters are a little harsher than on the moor!

I'm also wondering how many commercial beekeepers plan on requeening annually?

Tom


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## Michael Palmer

Yes, I've wintered in mini-nucs, 4 to the box...similar to Bro Adam's mating nuc boxes. So does Kirk W. I've gone to expanding my mating nucs onto 8 mini combs when I catch the last round of queens. They winter better with more volume up north here.


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## Michael Palmer

Specialkayme said:


> I'm not familiar with "The Sustainable Apiary." An Amazon and Abebooks search came up with nothing. Can you give us a little more information on this book?


You won't find it anywhere except on my computer. I'm still writing it. When finished it will be in two parts. First the setting up and wintering of nucleus colonies, and second raising the queens to go in those nucs. 

I work every day on it and am making progress.


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## beekuk

I also over winter queens in mini nucs,next moor up from dartmoor, called exmoor.

Nuc's like in the link below.....

http://www.modernbeekeeping.co.uk/item/93/kieler-mini-nuc--mating-hive--without-top-bars


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## Specialkayme

Mike,

I was unaware that you were in the process of writing a book. Suddenly I'm very interested. Do you have a planned completion date? Are you planning on going to print with it?


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## bot

Mike-
What's your survival rate in the double nucs? Or perhaps I should ask what should one expect? I've just come back from the beeyard having found 4 out of 6 nucs dead. It seems like two got too big for their britches with lots of bees and no honey, one was a really small cluster that got too far away from its stores, and one died surrounded by honey. I wouldn't have been surprised in March, but losing that many by mid-January was disappointing.


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## RiodeLobo

For wintering nucs could you make divided deeps or mediums, than place a #8 hardware cloth excluded over that and place another divided box on top? It would seem to me if you didn't have major issues (could they fight through the wires?) you would retain a lot of heat and have a better survival rate. 

I was thinking of doing this next year. Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Dan


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## WillH

Michael Palmer said:


> You won't find it anywhere except on my computer. I'm still writing it. When finished it will be in two parts. First the setting up and wintering of nucleus colonies, and second raising the queens to go in those nucs.
> 
> I work every day on it and am making progress.


Do you mean you are writing a book? Please let me know when you publsh it. Thanks.


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## Countryboy

_For wintering nucs could you make divided deeps or mediums, than place a #8 hardware cloth excluded over that and place another divided box on top?

I was thinking of doing this next year. Any thoughts?_

The experience folks usually have is that the moisture from the bottom cluster tends to stress the upper cluster. If you look at Michael Palmer's inner covers, he duct tapes the hole closed to prevent moisture from the bottom colony affecting the nuc on top - but it still allows heat transfer.


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## MARBIS

Michael Palmer said:


> You won't find it anywhere except on my computer. I'm still writing it. When finished it will be in two parts. First the setting up and wintering of nucleus colonies, and second raising the queens to go in those nucs.
> 
> I work every day on it and am making progress.


So glad to hear this, these days I was about to ask if you are going to write a book
Beeing a northerner beekeeper myself I am very interested in learning as much as I can from your experience. Please let us know when book is available.


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## Michael Palmer

Specialkayme;609129 Are you planning on going to print with it?[/QUOTE said:


> Eventually. I'd love to have it finished by spring, but wheels of progress grind exceedingly slow. I'll be back to work with the bees soon enough, and back into zombie mode where I have about as much extra energy as a Three Toed Sloth.


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## Michael Palmer

bot said:


> Mike-
> What's your survival rate in the double nucs? Or perhaps I should ask what should one expect? I've just come back from the beeyard having found 4 out of 6 nucs dead. It seems like two got too big for their britches with lots of bees and no honey, one was a really small cluster that got too far away from its stores, and one died surrounded by honey. I wouldn't have been surprised in March, but losing that many by mid-January was disappointing.


Yes, very disappointing. It happens. I would say my usual loss is 25%, but I've suffered 50% before. Those losses were when I still fed HFCS, and was using some I had stored in the shop for a couple years...bad move.

From your six...two are OK? Two starved? Two dead with small clusters? Did you feed? Were the two starved nucs operator error? If so, and you had fed enough, your loss would have been the two weak ones or 30%.

About the weak two. Lots of reasons why the nucs would have lost their bees. Disease, PMS, etc will cause that. Being honey bound might too...the queen not able to raise enough brood because combs were filled with honey. Late swarming or absconding comes to mind. Were the queens marked? I had a bunch abscond this August in that heat we experienced. I looked in shortly after the event. Most of the cluster and the queen were gone. They left no cells. Mostly young bees and emerging left...and they started emergency cells. Once the old brood emerged, the population looked good, so if I didn't know what had happened I would have thought everything OK...but of course there was no laying queen so population declined eventually, and the nuc never raised enough young bees for the winter cluster.


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## Michael Palmer

Countryboy said:


> _ If you look at Michael Palmer's inner covers, he duct tapes the hole closed to prevent moisture from the bottom colony affecting the nuc on top - but it still allows heat transfer._


_

And I wonder now just how important that heat transfer is. I've seen many times where the production colony below dies during the winter and the nucs above survive. It may be about getting them up and out of the snow pack so they can take a winter cleansing flight should the right conditions occur. 

For two years now I have been experimenting with two story double nuc boxes. A double nuc box with two 4 frame nuc boxes on top. Wintered on a hive stand instead of on top of a production colony, and an upper entrance above snow line, they seem to do just fine._


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## MWillard

I had similar experience as MP with one of my double nucs. In late August when we had the heat wave, one of my nucs swarmed, leaving a couple of queen cells and a decent cluster of bees. The problem is they swarmed at the end of August, around the 29th based on my records.

That nuc went into winter with a VQ. As an experiment, I left them alone to see what will become of them by spring. To date, they are still alive, but I suspect they will need to be combined by March if they are still alive.

I am exprimenting with my nucs this winter, trying four different setups.

Nucs:
5 frame single deep (5 frames total)

5 frame double deep (10 frames total)

4 frame split deep (4 frames total, two nucs on either side of divider)

4 frame double split deep (8 frames total, two nucs on either side of divider)

Other then the nuc that swarmed in late August, all of the nucs went into winter with mated queens. Some of the queens I produced and four are MP's queens. Some of the nucs required feeding in late fall, but all went into winter with plenty of young bees and stores.

My goal is to monitor the nucs throughout the winter and in the spring to determine if there is a distinct differnece between 4 and 5 frames vs. 4 and 5 frame double nucs.

Last winter I overwintered nucs in four frame double split deeps (8 frames, two nucs on either side of divider). They overwintered beautifully, so I'm trying to see how successful I can be to overwinter on just 4 and 5 frames.

Time will tell how this experiment will flushes out.


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## chillardbee

TWall said:


> Mike,
> I'm also wondering how many commercial beekeepers plan on requeening annually?


I certian will be.

Through the 90's we had no requeening program in our bees. I could maybe point out some hives that had young queens for sure because i knew they had either superceded the queen or swarmed. But I could never count on all the colonies being at optimal production because who's knows how many 1, 2 or 3 year old queens we had. we had a saying that "this years dog is next years star" more or less because the queen was old and at some point was superceded causeing low productivity for that hive. the other saying was "this years dog is next years star" more or less because they had superceced the year before and were led into the season with a young and vigoreous queen.

From texts, I knew the benefits from replacing queens either annually or bi-annually but it was until I saw the benefits of it in an operation that I had been working for that made me wonder why I had been doing this within my own hives. Since then I've been requeening my hives on a annual basis with good results.

This year I was going to overwinter 25 hives with queens going into the second year. Most of those hives ended up with failing queens at the end of the season. Out of the 25 there are 7 left. I will be requeening annually henceforth.


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## bot

Michael Palmer said:


> From your six...two are OK? Two starved? Two dead with small clusters? Did you feed? Were the two starved nucs operator error? If so, and you had fed enough, your loss would have been the two weak ones or 30%.


I definitely wouldn't discount operator error, I'm basically racking up any losses I have now to mistakes I made in August and September. My goldenrod flow wasn't so hot, I fed sugar syrup with an internal feeder starting mid Sept. but they didn't take it well, or were being robbed. I lost one double nuc to robbing from my regular hives then also. I know I was concerned about stores, but I didn't write down what I did. I always wish I had taken more notes. 

Anyway, the ones that didn't starve did have marked queens, although I saw no sign of brood. I took a baggie full of bees from one to check for mites.

On the plus side, I still have a double nuc left alive and another year's worth of experience.


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## Beewrangler

RiodeLobo said:


> For wintering nucs could you make divided deeps or mediums, than place a #8 hardware cloth excluded over that and place another divided box on top? It would seem to me if you didn't have major issues (could they fight through the wires?) you would retain a lot of heat and have a better survival rate.
> 
> I was thinking of doing this next year. Any thoughts?
> 
> Thanks,
> Dan


To avoid the fighting issues try a double screen. http://www.beesource.com/build-it-yourself/double-screen-board/
If you put a divider down the middle of it you can use it for double nucs. This year I made up about 5 of these and over wintered several of my smaller colonies above stronger ones.


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## Countryboy

_And I wonder now just how important that heat transfer is. I've seen many times where the production colony below dies during the winter and the nucs above survive. It may be about getting them up and out of the snow pack so they can take a winter cleansing flight should the right conditions occur. _

Could it be just having the dead air space below?

I know Allen Dick in Alberta says that adding an empty box below the winter cluster can be a benefit because of the extra dead air space. It's bad to add an empty box to the top of the hive, but it seems to be good to add one to the bottom of the hive.


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## kwest

i am currently running empty boxes with dry sugar on top of all my hives. did the same last winter with good sucess. although when i do it i cover the frames with a layer of newspaper then a big pile of sugar. there is room for airflow along the edges.


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## sjj

TWall said:


> In Beekeeping at Buckfast Abby Br Adam states ...The mating nucs were left in "severe" conditions to help select only the strongest queens. ...


He had not became a pater. I have asked myself what was the reason. Maybe your sentence is the answer ...


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## Riskybizz

Michael Palmer

I for one would look forward to reading your book on over-wintering nucs. I emailed you recently about your possible visit to N.M. but never heard back. Now I know the reason, your writing a book !! Good luck.


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## Michael Palmer

Riskybizz said:


> I emailed you recently about your possible visit to N.M. but never heard back.


I think I remember. I wrote back to Melanie Kirby saying I would love to go to NM, but haven't heard back. Did I miss something?

Small world..I mentioned that i spent some time in Penasco and Vadito and Ojito, and in Las Truchas...and she says that's where she and her partner keep bees.


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## deknow

although i've been impressed with the double nucs for a few years, this is the first time we have tried them.

2 double nucs made up at our treatment free conference last year, each of 4 colonies given a virgin queen from our own stock. we did not feed these, and they were in an overcrowded yard (we had to move them to our backyard after the conference).

3 out of 4 are thriving...one is gone.

each double nuc is a 10 frame box with a feeder/divider and bottom board from kirk webster, a plastic feed sack as an inner cover, and a telescoping cover.

the bees look great, and there is a built in way to feed effectively if necessary. i'm planning to do a run of feeders and bottom boards early spring.

deknow


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## Michael Palmer

deknow said:


> although i've been impressed with the double nucs for a few years, this is the first time we have tried them. deknow


Good for you guys. Now you know the feeling and why I wish I had started with it 10 years before I did.


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## Riskybizz

Mike P.

I'll email Melanie again and see if I get a reply. She emailed me and said you were most likely coming. Its ok to email you back directly? Whats your addy? 

Cheers


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## deknow

...i also think that this method (using unproductive colonies to make up small nucs) is a perfect complement for small scale (or even medium scale) queen rearing. it is an important advance in "how things are done" in the north.

deknow

edit: let me clarify what i mean. rearing queens if you are having trouble having bees without buying packages isn't terribly productive. the overwintering nucs demand new queens. the new queens demand a mating nuc. overwintering a number of double nucs keeps you self sufficent. this is a whole solution, not part of one.

deknow


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Echoing Deknow, it is also immensely satisfying to gain a little independance. I am trying a divided box, two deeps high, and I'm still hearing a satisfying buzzzzzzzz from at least one side.
Another thought on overwintering queens. In the fall I did a few combines, one hive went into winter with 2 sister queens in it; Apparently that is not unusual, but suppose someone worked out how to make it happen on a consistent basis. There would be a lot of potential savings if it were a part of routine overwintering.


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## Michael Palmer

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> suppose someone worked out how to make it happen on a consistent basis.


You could try placing a ripe queen cell in the supers during a good August flow.


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## Adrian Quiney WI

The queens I have sharing a hive, last seen on last check in the Fall, are sisters from the same parent hive.


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## timothyew

i started raising queens last season so im still newbish at it. this yr. i want to raise enough queens for requeening in the fall and still have some nucs for spring splits and colony replacement instead of wintering the nucs to put the queens in in the spring.


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## Michael Palmer

I know, you said the colony was a unite. The usual reason for multiple queens in one hive is successful supercedure. In both your case and in supercedure..the colony sees all the queens as laying queens and doesn't object. By adding a ripe cell to a full honey super near the top of the hive and during a good flow, the colony "gets" superceded. I would say in a number of instances there would be two queens laying together for some amount of time.

Just me trying to dream up a method to make multiple queens more routine....and work with the bees.


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Mike, exactly. If there were a way to make this work then a split in the spring would not neccesitate the need for a purchased queen, there would be two in the hive to be divided already.


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## timothyew

the usda has a pamphlet, production research report no. 161
Two queen system of honey bee colony management
the study details the pros and cons of 2 queens. it recommends reuniting the colony and let the bees make it back to a one queen colony for the winter. its a good study. seems like alot of work though.


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Tim, I'm thinking of exactly the opposite; Running a single queen hive, but overwintering another queen in the same hive in the same cluster. Of course thinking of it is the easy part.


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## deknow

...you could try dividing a 10 frame box in half (with a feeder or something) and keeping a colony on 4 frames of either side of the divider. :shhhh:

.....

actually, i was being sarcastic above....but it got me thinking, what if you had a double queen excluder (so the queens couldn't touch) instead of a divider and installed queens on both sides at the same time. could a single cluster span the double excluder? would the bees act like a single cluster, 2 queen colony with the queens separated?

deknow


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Sarcasm excused. I don't know about the excluders, would the bees leave one queen on one side? What I am thinking is that if 10-15% of hives have 2 queens in the spring then they likely overwintered that way in a single cluster. Stay with me... So there may be some window of time when the bees accept two queens, and if that could be identified and exploited it could be a game changer.


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## scdw43

Bees will work vertically out of two hives, in a super, through an excluder. Why not horizontal through an excluder. What would be the advantage to this setup? Just put two colonies in a deep with a thin divider. They will still transfer heat from one to the other. If one good laying queen is needed to to keep the bad queens bees alive, why not pinch the bad queen first. I think from a production standpoint it would be better to try to winter as many good queens on as few combs as possible. Some areas might be as little as two combs per hive. Some areas might need 4 to 8 combs as in Michael Palmer's area. It would be great to say that you wintered queens on two combs, but how many did you lose and can you do it every winter. Another thing is how long does it take the nuc with two to four combs, compared to 10 combs in a single, to build up to a production hive. Below is a picture taken on Jan 3 of this year of a nuc started in late July in a divided deep box with a movable feeder like Michael Palmer uses. Should I have continued to take combs and brood from this nuc or have let them expand into a single. This nuc was stared with 3 combs in July and not given any other drawn combs. It was fed about a quart of 1-1 twice a week during the summer and fed 2 gallons of 2-1 in October for winter.


http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h10/dave_sc/bees1/100_1506.jpg


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## Michael Palmer

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Mike, exactly. If there were a way to make this work then a split in the spring would not neccesitate the need for a purchased queen, there would be two in the hive to be divided already.


Doing it your way, success would be chancy and totally at the whim of the bees. I believe multiple queen colonies eventually get rid of extras. That would be up to them and not you. I would hate to make plans for the extra queens wintering in each cluster, only to discover the bees had got rid of one. I think it a much better plan to use a divided hive body, set up two nucleus colonies, and winter them, or in the case of more southerly beekeepers, expand the nucs into singles and winter that way. That way you know what you have, you know where the queens are, and you can make plans for the spring.


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## Michael Palmer

scdw43 said:


> Just put two colonies in a deep with a thin divider. They will still transfer heat from one to the other.
> 
> I think from a production standpoint it would be better to try to winter as many good queens on as few combs as possible. Some areas might be as little as two combs per hive. Some areas might need 4 to 8 combs
> 
> It would be great to say that you wintered queens on two combs, but how many did you lose and can you do it every winter.
> 
> Another thing is how long does it take the nuc with two to four combs, compared to 10 combs in a single, to build up to a production hive.
> 
> Below is a picture taken on Jan 3 of this year of a nuc started in late July in a divided deep box with a movable feeder like Michael Palmer uses. Should I have continued to take combs and brood from this nuc or have let them expand into a single.


It really is all about location, and circumstance. Every nuc is different, and every location is different. Keeping bees in divided bodies is conservative of equipment, and that's a good thing. Some nucs, especially with prolific queens won't stay in a small cavity without constant attention. Some locations...I'm talking north vs south...areas with extended hot weather, and those in the north with lower temps as a rule....won't stay in a small cavity because it's too darn hot.

The pic of your nuc that you expanded onto 10 combs is a good example of what they can do. There is no need really, to keep them small. To me, the primary objective is to use your non-productive colonies to create the nucs and thereby the colonies for next year. This allows you to keep your production colonies as strong as possible to make the most honey possible. Rather than split them up in the spring, manage manage your production hives against swarming and use the colonies that aren't productive to make the nucs...using the resources in those non-productive colonies to your best advantage.

The next step is to manage those nucs so you can winter them successfully and have those queens the following spring. Each nuc has to be examined an an individual. They all behave differently. If they need more room, you do one of two things. Remove brood and bees and make more nucs..or use that brood somewhere in your apiary... or expand the broodnest vertically or horizontally. Horizontal expansion is what you did in making your nuc a 10 framer. Looks like it worked well. More successful in wintering to expand horizontally in a location like SC than VT. You could also expand the nucs vertically by adding a nuc super above each. This works well and is a bit more conservative of equipment...only one bottom, inner and outer needed...plus the two little supers. I think they winter better vertically in the north, too. 

I have been experimenting expanding vertically for the last two summers. I'm finding I like this plan better, especially for nucs made before mid-July here in Vermont. They love moving up. The draw out 4 extra combs, and I don't have to manage them quite as intensely. They store more honey for winter, raise a larger cluster, and don't abscond with their objections to being in a small cavity in hot weather.

Yes, a nuc on more combs in the spring will build up faster...provided the queens are equal. Nucs transferred onto 10 combs at the end of April here in the north, usually have 3+ combs of brood. They can't expand the broodnest, so they have reached their limit...and I think that unless you transfer them at this point the queens are held back. With extra combs in their broodnest, the queen can lay more, unhindered by lack of space. These I find have 5-7 combs of brood at about the same time. When transferring the 4 frame nucs onto 10 combs, you'll see an amazing expansion. In two weeks they need another deep of comb, and two weeks after that need supers. So, it really is about each nuc as an individual and working with that nuc to give them what they need.


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## scdw43

Michael, I agree it is all about location and finding what works best. Next year I am going to try a couple of deeps divided four ways to see if that can be done in my area. I will use these for a source of early queens if it works.


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Mike, I appreciate the input. I am going to try overwintering more nuc's next winter. I understand your point about it being the bees decision versus the beekeepers. I am looking forward to your book.


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## winevines

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Another thought on overwintering queens. In the fall I did a few combines, one hive went into winter with 2 sister queens in it; Apparently that is not unusual.


This happened to me as well in Fall of 2009. Got some cool photos of the mother daughter as well. Not a result of a hive combine, but from a regular nuc I made to overwinter. From what I was told, expect in Spring for one queen to dominate. That is what I experienced in the nuc. Also same thing happened in a hive as well. Existed together much of the season, then the next Spring, one was left.


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## bleta12

TWall said:


> In Beekeeping at Buckfast Abby Br Adam states they requeened approx 2/3 of their hives every spring with queens over-wintered in mating nucs. The mating nucs were left in "severe" conditions to help select only the strongest queens.
> 
> Does anyone do anything similar in the US, or anywhere else?
> 
> Tom


I do overwinter mating nucs, half deep frames in single, single with a deep supper and four ways.
You can see some photos on my photobucket.

Gilman


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## Michael Bush

It's difficult to get bees to work vertically through an excluder. It's harder to get them to work horizontally through an excluder. I see no reason to use one in either case...


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## Jeff G

Bleta12, Where does one buy half frame deeps like you use?


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## bleta12

Jeff, I make them myself. I use regular deep frames, split the tops and bottoms of the frames and use the sides the way they come. It is not difficult.

Gilman


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## kilocharlie

Michael P. - just a big thanks for your all input in this thread. 

Hey everybody - there is a short expose about how he does it already in Increase Essentials by Dr. Lawrence John Connor, just in case you didn't already know. A page on Kirk Webster, too.

I'll be reading Michael's books when they come out, too.


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## Humanbeeing

This makes the most sense to me. The nucs share warmth, if one queen dies, her bees will take up with the adjoining nuc, and if one side runs low on stores, they can go through the queen excluder and get food.
Has anyone tried this method?

http://www.frenchbeefarm.com/splitting_method.html


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## MattDavey

Hi Guys,

A number of people on this thread were trying overwintering various nuc configurations.

Such as double nucs, vertically divided deeps and nucs on top of larger hives.

How have your experiences been? How low have temperatures gotten and what configurations have worked? (I would prefer not to have to feed nucs.)

Thanks
Matthew Davey


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## Adrian Quiney WI

My 9 are all still alive, as of the weekend. This winter is warmer than last so far - it has only been in the single digits F. They are in 2 storey 5 frame nucs pushed against each other in a group of four and a group of five.


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## squarepeg

adrian, i assume you are using a migatory type top to be able to push them together. do you have any other wrapping or insulation?


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## David LaFerney

My 4 looked good a few days ago (might die this week of course...) 4 frame medium stand alone mating nucs that are sized for a pair to fit on top of a strong hive - double screens built into the bottoms. They each have a candy board laying on top of the frames. It's an experiment, but so far all's well.


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## rkereid

This is my third year wintering double 5 frame medium nucs. I push a bunch of them together, put a 2" foam board on top, and then stack the covers over that. I have a reduced entrance, solid bottom, and a 3/4" or 1" vent hole open in the top box. This past season was not very productive nectar wise, and even though I fed a bunch, they are eating it up with this warm weather. So each has dry sugar in a division board feeder, kind of an alternative Mt Camp method. Sometimes I vary the exact setup but essentially they are all the same.

Last year I only lost one weak nuc out of 7. 

Picts- https://picasaweb.google.com/103329...id=moChqgM2j0qjgYnMvla_xA#5697145330315280226

Richard
in the mountains of SW VA at 2100'


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## David LaFerney

Cool paint jobs.


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## BEES4U

I have been over-wintering a few queens in southern California. 
Zip code 93010.
It can be a tedious situation and really is not worth the time involved compared to producing queens in the spring.


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## rkereid

David LaFerney said:


> Cool paint jobs.


Ha! It's really pretty easy, free oops paint, several cutout templates, and some extra spray paint.


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Squarepeg, my set-up looks very similar to Richard Reids. I have the boxes on stands pushed against each other. I have the FBIC (feed bag inner cover) on top of the boxes, then the same 2 inch pink insulation (R8 I think) on top, then I have an end cap of 2 inch insulation on top of that. To keep out draughts I have black pond liner just overlapping the top three inches - covering the 2 inch insulation and about an inch of the top. Finally on the very top I rest the nuc covers.
I have 3/4 holes in the top boxes, I have put half a wine cork in there to reduce it even further and then a very reduced bottom entrence. My nucs are oriented alternately North and South. This morning it was 10 degrees F and each top hole had the tell tale alive sign of frozen bee breaths edging the holes.
If I was better at IT I would post a picture.


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## tefer2

rkereid, your wintering nuc setup looks just like mine. I even have one 3 story too. So far with our mild winter I have 9 out of 10 still alive.
My 2 story five frame nucs have a 2 inch shim with candy bricks, then the styrene.


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## camero7

When I put the 2" directly on the top of the nuc the bees have chewed it out. How do you deal with that?


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## squarepeg

adrian, thanks for that description. no pic necessary. sounds like they should be pretty cozy. ya never know about wisconsin winters, i remember hunting easter eggs in the snow there one year. good luck!


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## rkereid

camero7 said:


> When I put the 2" directly on the top of the nuc the bees have chewed it out. How do you deal with that?


I realize that can be a problem, but I have not seen it happen with my bees. I have the foam on from the end of Nov to mid March at the latest. Since this is the time when the bees are least active, and it is not as long as some of you all up north, maybe they just don't get the chance.

Our bees have been real active with all the mild weather. I'm thinking I should weigh a few to see how stores are holding up.


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## Michael Palmer

camero7 said:


> When I put the 2" directly on the top of the nuc the bees have chewed it out. How do you deal with that?


I separate the foam from the bees or they will chew it. My nuc boxes have a bag for the inner cover...some do have wood. The foam goes on top of the bag...or inner cover, and under the outer cover.


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## tefer2

camero7 said:


> When I put the 2" directly on the top of the nuc the bees have chewed it out. How do you deal with that?


I hot glue 3/8 thick pieces of 1 by to the underside, leaving a notch for an opening. In the center I cover the insulation with tin foil tape used in making heating ductwork. Thats makes a migratory cover with a top entrance.


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## Guest

I have skimmed through this thread and thought I'd post how I am overwintering my nucs and queen banks. ALthough I am a first year bee keeper, I have not has a single loss I am pretty darn happy at every inspection.
Below shows a photo of a heating cable installed inside a PVC type pipe. 
Easy Heat cable (Amazon.com) thermostatically controlled and fully automatic. Comes on about 32 degrees and goes off at about 45. 
7 watts per foot of cable length which means a 40' cable will cost me about .20 cents if it is on for 12 hours. I have never seen or heard of anyone using this for overwintering, but it seems perfect to me and had worked very well so far. Temps have been colder than normal this last month and this cable has come on almost every night under my hives with smaller numbers.
It is also installed under my larger established hives, but I have never plugged it in. If temps get in the single digets for an extended period of time and I think they have started brood rearing I will use it then. Certainly avoids the risk of chilled brood in any application.

I can give you temp test results, but know that installed as pictured with hives sitting above cable with most drafts plugged will raise the interior temp of the hive between 10 to 30 degrees above exterior temps. depending on how insulated/ventlated my hives are. Seems to be just right for my climate in Western Wa. At 25 degree outside temps, my bees are loosly clustered and able to move to over feed if necessary. I have insulation in between the hives which are touching all in a row. A burlap sack with shavings fills up the empty honey super. The sack rests on a top screened board so it has no contact with frames and hive is easy to check by peeking under the pillow.
Heres the heating cable installed on a new bench. Hives rest on the 2x4's. All my hives are fully screened bottoms.

















all migratory tops are covered with a 3/4" rubber mat

Heres the hives installed on the cable:









Heres the screened top (And bottom) board. I make them myself and they are interchangable. Room under the screen for patties, you can invert a mason jar for top feeding or top with the burlap sack for insulation. This photo was taken Christmas eve when the temps were above average andbees were flying. They have since moves back down to cluster.








I never have to worry about condensation of nucs on top of stronger hives. 

I do have a plan to build overwintering combos for nucs and queen banks for next year, but will post on another thread. Hope this helps
Lauri Miller


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## Guest

I build this mating nuc combo for use this spring, but it will have many additional uses. As an overwintering mini nuc or remove some of the dividers and use it as a three hive combo. It is made out of 1 1/2" cedar for insulating value. Here it is as a queen mating nuc









cedar planks with mason jar screened holes for individual top feeding









Migratory style cover with rubber mat









Additional Lanstroth box's fit on top for a three hive combo. Just be sure your dividers lay out correctly for what ever your application may be. Removable dividers make transition easy. Lots of ways to stack it. I don't normally move the bottom box and all uppers are seperate for easy inspections.









I also plan to make this type of box about 8' long to accomodate 8 nuc box's as uppers (for more vertical movement) to sit on top of the divided insulated bottom unit. Placed on the heating cable for weather extreme temp control, I would fully expect to have very good results and lots of fall raised queens ready and willing very early in spring.


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## Michael Bush

>but it got me thinking, what if you had a double queen excluder (so the queens couldn't touch) instead of a divider and installed queens on both sides at the same time. could a single cluster span the double excluder? would the bees act like a single cluster, 2 queen colony with the queens separated?

I can see some potential in this IF the hive is narrow enough that one of the queens isn't abandoned, which has been my experience with such things.


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## Guest

Interesting thought, like a mirror image. I would guess they would be content for the greater portion of the winter-but separation timing would probably be critical to it's success or as someone said, once the hive began rearing brood actively, the stronger queen might be favored and weaker queen might be eliminated.
How about a combo hive as I showed above, queen excluder above the second boxs, with a combo box above all three for bees to feed and equalize?
I am sure someone here has tried this in some fashon.
Might be interesting to try with Dark Carniolans and blond Cordovans to easily see who is where at any given time.


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Lauri, here is another set up with someone using a heater cable.
http://www.mbbeekeeping.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=59


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## Vance G

at the site frenchbeefarm.com a system on this order is used where two four frame nucs are wintered in a divided deep under a queen excluder with a combined food supply above. They tout one of the advantages as being if one queen fails, the bees will join the other queen. Of course the canadians have to be serious about measures to keep numbers up over winter because losses are so very expensive to replace. Lauri, you must be a natural at this and an ambitious one. I wish you well.


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## Guest

Thank you both for your links and information! 
Whoa, over wintering just two frames! I though three would be challenging! 
So many ways a person can over winter, I love it. Luckily I have my hives here at home and I have the time to check on them any time I want to. Adjusting conditions and monitoring feed, etc before things ever get out of hand.
I will certainly take photos and notes about any experiments I do and post them here. Although I have only been keeping bees since May 2011, I have been working with Agriculture for over 30 years. A lot of similarities with the bees, you have to be sensitive to day length and weather conditions, understand the creature you are trying to manage, be observant and spend the time and effort to do it right. Thanks again for your info.

Lauri


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## winevines

I have often wondered about folks "heating" bees. If during a warm winter the colony eats through more stores then what is the benefit of the heating? Is the concern that they will be too cold in their cluster to get to their natural stores? But then you have to supplemental feed if heating... so I wonder..
Do you want them to start raising brood earlier? Again, how do you deal with the food if not naturally available?


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## Guest

I am heating only the smaller colonies so they can move to stores if the weather is cold for extended periods of time.. I think there is a medium temp where they will not eat more stores due to not having to work so hard to heat the cluster. Possible consuming less. Heating the cluster takes calories/consumption. I wouldn't really even call it heating. Just taking off the chill.

I am not heating the hive to stimulate them to become active early or start brood rearing, Only giving them the Oppertunity to move if then need to. But once they do start rearing brood, it is a nice to be able to help the smaller colonies avoid chilled brood if the weather has a nasty turn for the worst.
I do notice I do not have the level of condensation in the heated hives as I see in the unheated ones. Another sign they are not working as hard. Unheated hives have just a tiny bit of condensation with a top and bottom entrance. Heated hives have absolutly NO condensaion and have the same set up.


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## Solomon Parker

What are overwintered queens worth (in dollars)?


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## Guest

Not sure about the dollar amount.
But in my area, in late winter or early spring, if I end up with a queenless hive or want to make some early nucs, My only option is to buy queens from a climate that is much warmer than mine.
Unless I have those really priceless locally raised fall mated overwintered queens in my stash(Queenbank or nucs)
Purchased warm climate mated queens would be OK for a quick fix, but not in the long run-as those queens would be of questionable hardiness in my wet and colder climate.
How do you put a price on that? In my short experience, many Beekeepers usually want the cheapest thing they can find, regardless of the long term outlook. So I would venture to guess, most beekeepers that have fall raised overwintered queens don't let them go. And unless you know the beekeeper personally, how do you REALLY know the queens are fall mated overwinterd? Not some old lady that didn't get marked and is near Medicare.


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## deknow

...when you are talking about banked queens, do you mean each queen in a small nuc, or several mated queens in cages in a colony (either queenless, or queenright with the queen kept away from the caged queens)?

deknow


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## Guest

I would consider two or three frames and a single queen 'banked' for OVERWINTERING purposes. I consider an overwintering nuc would be 5 or 6 frames and a single queen.
Overwintering several queens in cages in a queenless colony would be a good question for someone with more experience than I. Might work for a few months when they are not activly laying, but your removal timing and placement in their own colony would be critical before they expired or died of bordom
Not sure the bees would be able to cluster well enough over the queens in cages though.


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## deknow

thanks for the clarification.

the term "banked queen" generally refers to caged queens....3 frames with a queen is a nuc. I understand that you see these as "banked", but the terminology gets really confusing when you stray from well accepted definitions.

deknow


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## Guest

I have stated in almost every post I am a new beekeeper since May 2011. Thank you for the correction.
Since single caged queens are not generally overwintered, I considered a two or three frame more of just a queen a bank, not a standard nuc. 
Just My opinion. Sorry it it was confusing


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## TWall

Solomon Parker said:


> What are overwintered queens worth (in dollars)?


Sol,

I don't know that you can buy them. If you accept the observations of Brother Adam that they are better/the best queens they should be worth more than a recently bred queen.

Tom


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## David LaFerney

What is an overwintered *nuc* worth compared to one made from an early split with a cultured queen? Probably only a rather discriminating buyer would be willing to pay any more for it. Early availability might be the main factor for impulse buyers - like those folks at Lowes buying tomato plants on a sunny Saturday in March.

If you could get a good quality overwintered local queen or nuc any time you wanted one - when would you want it? At the onset of early build up? Dandelion Bloom? Seriously asking, not being sarcastic. 

I see selling extra nucs after accounting for winter losses as a possible way to generate a bit of bee keeping income from that sustainable apiary. Demand is usually high at that time of year.

It would probably be a good experiment to produce some of both (OW and Early splits) from the same stock and then compare their performance.


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## Solomon Parker

I sold two nucs last fall for the normal price because I couldn't see how risking them to overwintering would be more profitable. Some nucs will be lost over the winter, that means the surviving ones should be worth about that much more. In my experience, a queen proven to be able to survive the winter is far more valuable than the best freshest recently raised and mated queen in a cage or a nuc.


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## hystad

I know a queen breeder that keeps about 900 nucs year round. January price is $75 for 5 frames heavy with stores and 2-3 frames of bees. March price is $90 for 5 frames light on stores and 3-4 frames of bees.


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## delber

As is typical it seems that the price would be location specific. In Ca the price could be 90 or 100, however in Pa where I am I'd pay 150 for a good 5 frame nuc in March. I know a friend of mine who's starting out would also. Especially when you can only buy a package mid march / early April for about 100. A 5 frame nuc a month earlier is worth it IMHO. That's what I'm banking on. Also if you look at other sites there are people that sell 5 frame "northern raised" nucs in June for almost 150 so perhaps my numbers are low. Does anyone else have thoughts? I know MP has sold some nucs in the spring. Has anyone else sold them and do you care to share how much you sold them for?


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## camero7

Have a friend in VA who is selling nucs with overwintered queens for $165. I don't have any this year but expect to have some for sale next year. I will be in the $170.00 range for mine.


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## Guest

If I had the resources for sales this year, That is what I would charge (or pay) for a healthy 5 frame over wintered nuc, with a fall mated northern queen. No question.


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## delber

That is helpful guys!!! The people that I remembered selling the nucs for has them offered at 120, but they're already all sold out. I realize that a nuc is SOOOO much better than a package and if packages are going for around 100, then nucs should be at least 1/2 again as much. (150) Overwintered even more (Even up to 200?) so because they're available much earlier and even before build up even starts. Seems to me that there's a ballance between selling price, how many you have, whether you sell out, and what demand is that's interesting. Seems to me that if someone's sold out already in January then either he's small, underpriced, or didn't have any for sale this year. When I'm ready to offer them I'll also overwinter them and offer them for about the same price as you mention. 170 sounds resonable to me. I realize how fast a nuc builds up even w/o any comb drawn other than the 5 frames.


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