# I would like to be a commercial beek



## sqkcrk

Be careful what u wish for.


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## GuyDurden

sqkcrk said:


> Be careful what u wish for.


Not sure where to take it from there.....but...thanks? :lookout:


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## Huntingstoneboy

I am also new, and have a great desire to keep many hives....or let's say I did. I have done 10 cut-outs, and have caught a few swarms. Posted ads on craiglist list and got some referrals from a local exterminator. Joined the local club, and was lucky enough to have an older gentleman take me under his wing. A month ago I dreamed of having 50 hives. Last week we did 3 cut-outs, and chased a swarm. I spent last night putting more frames together. Today I realized 1 cut-out was queenless so I merged it with a swarm. Yesterday was my daughters birthday, and I was a little put out that she wanted to go out for dinner as I have several more boxes that need built for splits I did 4 weeks ago. Point is...Right now...with a career and a family, I am chasing my tale! I hope to reach 20 this year, but may draw the line there. My advice would be to work up slow and steady....see what winter and next spring brings, then go from there. AND....Careful what you wish for!


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## hpm08161947

GuyDurden said:


> Not sure where to take it from there.....but...thanks? :lookout:


Go get a job with Timmy Holt - up in Siloam, NC. After a year working for him you will be much further ahead than trying to split hives..... plus you will know the truth.


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## UTvolshype

I started out this year with 2 hives and now up to 16, so by next spring I'll have around 20 hives. All this expansion is the easy part!!! I've been a beekeeper for 30 years off and on so I kind of know what I'm doing.
But next season I'll going to have to expand my super supply to over 100 mediums, that's 4-5 supers per hive, 1000 new frames, plus foundation wax or plastic coated. That's a lot of work, so the easy part is getting your hive numbers up.
It's the year two which is the hard part. Keeping them from swarming with no drawn out supers. Putting the boxes together and moving all that stuff to the right yards. Fun stuff but a lot of work.


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## GuyDurden

Huntingstoneboy said:


> I am also new, and have a great desire to keep many hives....or let's say I did. I have done 10 cut-outs, and have caught a few swarms. Posted ads on craiglist list and got some referrals from a local exterminator. Joined the local club, and was lucky enough to have an older gentleman take me under his wing. A month ago I dreamed of having 50 hives. Last week we did 3 cut-outs, and chased a swarm. I spent last night putting more frames together. Today I realized 1 cut-out was queenless so I merged it with a swarm. Yesterday was my daughters birthday, and I was a little put out that she wanted to go out for dinner as I have several more boxes that need built for splits I did 4 weeks ago. Point is...Right now...with a career and a family, I am chasing my tale! I hope to reach 20 this year, but may draw the line there. My advice would be to work up slow and steady....see what winter and next spring brings, then go from there. AND....Careful what you wish for!


I will heed your advice. I understand I would need to work a bit slowly as to not over exert myself. Right now, school is winding down, I have my son Thursday-Mondays, and no real career I wouldn't mind leaving. I want to get to the point that I can at least feed and cloth my son and I. I have no bills, the time in the Navy set me up for that, and I need to take myself in a direction. I screen print t-shirts, and have found much support printing shirts that are bee related to sell to people in the market, as well as local apiaries. I plan on making this the more, er....reliable source of income, and to help fund expanding the apiary. Seems like you have been doing alot of work! I plan on getting more into swarms and such next year, this was a busy summer for me, setting up the basic apiary, clearing out some space (trees) for them, and starting a t-shirt company. Thanks!



hpm08161947 said:


> Go get a job with Timmy Holt - up in Siloam, NC. After a year working for him you will be much further ahead than trying to split hives..... plus you will know the truth.


 Is that a serious bit of advice, as in, do you think he will actually hire me? (and would it make financial sense to drive the distance?) I'll be ahead in terms of what? As in I'll likely fail trying to build an apiary by splitting or what? 

I apologize, I'm just not understanding the tone here...

What is this truth everyone is speaking of? 



UTvolshype said:


> I started out this year with 2 hives and now up to 16, so by next spring I'll have around 20 hives. All this expansion is the easy part!!! I've been a beekeeper for 30 years off and on so I kind of know what I'm doing.
> But next season I'll going to have to expand my super supply to over 100 mediums, that's 4-5 supers per hive, 1000 new frames, plus foundation wax or plastic coated. That's a lot of work, so the easy part is getting your hive numbers up.
> It's the year two which is the hard part. Keeping them from swarming with no drawn out supers. Putting the boxes together and moving all that stuff to the right yards. Fun stuff but a lot of work.


Holy moly, that sounds intense! I guess the easy part is indeed building hive numbers, its all the other work that eats you up. 

I planned on just buying frames until I got better at making them or quicker at putting them together, maybe this winter I'll buy a few to put together and see how that comes up, but for the price, I don't think my skills or speed could justify making my own, and I'll just have to eat that cost for a year or two while I spend my free time becoming a carpenter inch: 

I figured a winter or two spent intensively focusing on particular skill sets, and managing my time appropriately can help me prepare for the following year, instead of trying to play catch up. Thank you for your input!


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## hedges

I also have aspirations of becoming a more serious side-liner next year. I only have 2 hives right now, but I love it, have a lot of enthusiasm, live in a relatively rural place, and have the youth to be willing to gamble my time.

My goal for next year is to build up to about 50 hives, mostly for honey production. I have a reasonably large number of organic farms nearby and a csa in every surrounding town, none of which have bees currently. In addition, I live in a place where people grow apples, cranberries and blueberries. My current plan is to go with 2 deep/2-3 medium setups, with excluders, wood frames, plastic foundation and packages. I might try to introduce a VSH queen I have access to into one of my hives, with the intentions of replacing the bulk of my new hives next year with a round or two of home-reared queens. Luckily, my bee club has a nice queen rearing initiative, and so while I only have modest exposure to the process right now, hopefully by the middle of next summer when I might have enough excess nurse bees to consider the endeavor, I'll hopefully be on slightly firmer ground.

Right now I'm just saving money for the supplies to create my own hives. I read a post a couple weeks ago extolling the virtues of plastic foundation - that while bees generally don't like it quite as much, most bee keepers will replace foundation every 3 years, so being able to just clean it off and reinsert saves large amounts of money in the long run. I have a very cheap supplier of kiln-dried white pine locally, and I can get boards and even smaller pieces (2-3 foot pieces work for my 10 frame boxes - 2 footers for the long side, 3 footers for 2 short sides). I have a table saw, skill saw, and drill press. I figure as this process gets along further, I'll buy an air-stapler and nailgun for ease of construction (the nailgun is perhaps unnecessary, but the stapler - I saw a video of a guy with a 32 frame jig mass gluing and stapling frames together and it's a thing of beauty).

My idea for next year is to establish hive sites at 5-6 locations, with 8-10 hives per location. At the end of next summer I'm going to start a more serious job, but I figure if I can have the things built and setup, in following years I can do most of the inspection work on weekends, allowing me to keep my 50+ hives going, and sell splits as necessary to keep my sideline in sideline territory. 

After that, if I feel that I'm losing an opportunity by not pollinating, I'll start doing that. But the problem with pollinating here is that most production sites are cranberries, and with the pesticides and weak forage, those are pretty hard on bees. So, with my lack of experience and a new operation, I'm much more concerned with building up a strong and resilient stock in the next couple years before further complicating it all with the logistics and potential pitfalls of loaning out my bees.

I say good luck. If it's interesting to you, and you think it might work, TRY IT! But always be aware that you can fail, and don't overextend yourself. I think starting small isn't a bad idea, but more important is knowing how much is too much to bite off. And that, no one can tell you.


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## EastSideBuzz

hedges said:


> I say good luck. If it's interesting to you, and you think it might work, TRY IT! But always be aware that you can fail, and don't overextend yourself. I think starting small isn't a bad idea, but more important is knowing how much is too much to bite off. And that, no one can tell you.


So true. 300 is a full time job and with a full time job one gets in the way quite allot. There are many days I am at work knowing that I have to do something since the weather is nice but, cant because of a meeting. Several swarms probably happened because I had to work to pay the bills. Spending every weekend and most evenings drives my wife nuts. This is a true test of our marriage. I might be sleeping with the girls some day and it will be my fault. At least the dog house would be more cozy.

So I went from 2-11-60-150-300 year by year. I figure 20-30k a year is a typical expense growth rate that you will need to take from your day job.

I can say add no more then 50 your second year and see how it is and then you can double each year after.

It is allot of work and allot of cash to build out. Every hive is 200 bucks when you count the bee's and all the support structure per hive, supers etc.. When you get to 60 you can use a boom on a used truck 10k. When you get to 150 you are going to need a forklift 40k. Now you have all the honey to deal with and that will be another 50k for the extraction equipment. Then you need to find a place to sell all that honey. 

Remember to do it slowly and pause each year and figure out if you want to go to the next step. At 300 I think you will start to think about adding help.

This is a hell of allot of work. I would say 5+ hours every day, all year plus your day job that needs to pay for it all. Make a mistake, take a 50% loss and it could bankrupt you. Go slow and grow slow. I just got done building 3500 frames 350 boxes and that was just to super everyone with one deep. 

You need 2 deep brood boxes and 2-3 deep supers and 2-3 western supers per hive. So you can rotate them out of one honey crop into another one and extract in a timely fashion. That is a lot of work to build and paint etc. No way to do more them 100 hives extra each year unless you have a crew to help in the off season to build. Forget vacations.

Working for that guy is a great idea. I have a commercial mentor that helps me and his guys extract all my honey for me because I don't have a honey house yet. That is another 50k plus the building so that is a couple years off. I would go slow things can cost quickly when you get into the high numbers. I cant believe how many "X" and 3 zero's I have to write all the time.

Good luck and keep your day job until you grow large enough. You will need the cash. Also if I had it to do over I would do 8 frame deeps.



UTvolshype said:


> It's the year two which is the hard part. Keeping them from swarming with no drawn out supers. Putting the boxes together and moving all that stuff to the right yards. Fun stuff but a lot of work.


Exactly. That is every year you double. You use last years supers as your brood boxes and then they all have to build out comb. Learning how to manage multiple yards is also the tricky part. Taking the trailer of supers with you because you don't know what you need is the fun part.


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## sqkcrk

sqkcrk said:


> Be careful what u wish for.


I wasn't ready to reply w/ a detailed explanation at the time. I imagine that you have heard the saying "Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.", haven't you?

If you are going to be successful at making beekeeping you occupation you will need a lot of time, money, and hard work. Putting in the hours will take you from your son when you might rather be w/ him. I don't know how old he is, but there are only some times when it will be practical for him to be w/ you when u are working your bees.

Herb's advice to get a job working for someone who is a commercial beekeeper is sound advice. Doing so you will get insight and education on what it takes to run enough hives to support the needs and wants of a person and his family.

There are plenty of other commercial beekeepers on beesource who can answer your questions perhaps better than I. Hopefully they will chime in.

Find out, by doing, what it really takes. Find a commercial beekeeper who will employ you or even just go out w/ them for a week. Establish a knowledge of Accounting/Bookeeping. Small Business courses. Access your talents and abilities. Determine how strong your desire is. Will anything stand in your way?

You can ask all sorts of questions here and you will get all sorts of answers both positive (we need more beekeepers) and negative (r u sure you are up to the work and sacrifice?). Support for the idea and discouragement from doing so because you may not know that which you wish for.

Best wishes. Doing what you bring up here can be quite fulfilling and at times quite discouraging. It's farming unlike any other farming most people think of when they think of farming.


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## sqkcrk

GuyDurden said:


> I apologize, I'm just not understanding the tone here...


Don't try to understand the tone here. We are just trying to be honest and forthright w/ our advice and outlook.


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## hpm08161947

GuyDurden said:


> Is that a serious bit of advice, as in, do you think he will actually hire me? (and would it make financial sense to drive the distance?) I'll be ahead in terms of what? As in I'll likely fail trying to build an apiary by splitting or what?
> 
> I apologize, I'm just not understanding the tone here...
> 
> What is this truth everyone is speaking of?


The tone is serious. If you know enough to consider being a commercial beekeeper, then he will hire you. 

There will be no commute. You will be in CA,. FLA, NC, NJ, and ME and perhaps some other states I can't think of. You will learn to drive a rig, balance a load, position a spreader, strap it, net it,load 3 pallets of double deeps at a time - things you will never learn building your own frames out back. Too many other things to mention here.

Never forget... a commercial beekeeper is not a big hobbiest.


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## sqkcrk

hpm08161947 said:


> Never forget... a commercial beekeeper is not a big hobbiest.


Wow Herb, I like that. That's gotta be your new tag line.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

I am not a commercial beek, but have been at this since the 90s, so I've learned a few things. Since nobody seems to have mentioned it, I will: Namely, the bees do not always cooperate with our plans for them. If you want to be commercial, you NEED to be able to recognize what you are looking at in a hive and already know what to do for it. Bad choices cost you time, money, and bees. That's where working for someone else comes in. They already know these things and can teach you what you need to learn. Any accountant can crunch numbers, but it takes a beekeeper--and a dang good one at that--to manage 50-100-500 colonies without losing half your operation to normal beekeeping catastrophes. Knowing what to do and when to do it is job one. 

Consider this: just this week there have been 3-4 posts from hobbyists about their harvests of 10 lbs per hive. Now look at the posts from the commercial guys about what a banner year they are having and how a few are expecting harvests of 200 lbs from a bunch of their hives. Just HOW do they do that--that's what you need to learn if you expect to feed your family from your hives. They already know how to cover their yearly losses. They already know how to build their numbers. They already know WHERE to place their hives so they won't lose half their bees each year to chemicals. And they know how to extract the resulting crop and sell it for the best prices. Selling 20-40-60 THOUSAND lbs of honey profitably takes a whole different set of skills from selling at the local farmer's market.

All of these things are VERY learnable. The trick is to learn them from OTHER PEOPLE'S MISTAKES and not your own.

Good luck with this. If I were just starting out, I'd be thinking the same as you and looking hard at the beekeeper's life, too. Have fun with your journey! :thumbsup:

JMO


Rusty


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## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> Wow Herb, I like that. That's gotta be your new tag line.


Yea... I like it. Pretty sure that a Commercial Beekeeper and a hobbiest are two different critters. Perhaps that explains the tension that exists between the two groups?


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## sqkcrk

You mentioned being in the Navy. (Thanks for your service.) So you know hwo to take orders, I assume, and have lived under someone else telling you what to do and when to do it. You may have also learned to do things when you can and not when you want to. Are you selfmotivated? Are you your best employee or do you work better and harder for someone else?

If the weather isn't ideal, maybe raining even, will you be out in the bees putting on supers or getting soaking wet moving bees to another location?

Are you a workaholic? It wouldn't hurt.


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## David LaFerney

hpm08161947 said:


> Yea... I like it. Pretty sure that a Commercial Beekeeper and a hobbiest are two different critters. Perhaps that explains the tension that exists between the two groups?


Probably a lot like when a contractor sells a house to someone who has watched a lot of Bob Villa.


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## MNbees

First you need to be: trucker, mechanic, plumber, electrician, carpenter, machine operator, and most of all, crazy!!


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## Keith Jarrett

MNbees said:


> First you need to be: trucker, mechanic, plumber, electrician, carpenter, machine operator, and most of all, crazy!!


Well said MNB.  

Also money management is highly important also.


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## hpm08161947

GuyDurden said:


> Is that a serious bit of advice, as in, do you think he will actually hire me? !


This reminded me of a rather large commercial beekeeper (3500 hives) - who when queried about why he would not hive a guy with 20 years of experience.... replied "It would take me 20 years to unteach him what he already thinks he knows!" "Blank Slates" can be very trainable. Besides the only real requirement seems to be a strong back and a strong work ethic - a CDL would not hurt...


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## GuyDurden

hedges said:


> I also have aspirations of becoming a more serious side-liner next year. I only have 2 hives right now, but I love it, have a lot of enthusiasm, live in a relatively rural place, *and have the youth to be willing to gamble my time.*
> 
> Right now I'm just saving money for the supplies to create my own hives. I read a post a couple weeks ago extolling the virtues of plastic foundation - that while bees generally don't like it quite as much, most bee keepers will replace foundation every 3 years, so being able to just clean it off and reinsert saves large amounts of money in the long run.
> 
> My idea for next year is to establish hive sites at 5-6 locations, with 8-10 hives per location. At the end of next summer I'm going to start a more serious job, but I figure if I can have the things built and setup, in following years I can do most of the inspection work on weekends, allowing me to keep my 50+ hives going, and sell splits as necessary to keep my sideline in sideline territory.
> 
> After that, if I feel that I'm losing an opportunity by not pollinating, I'll start doing that. But the problem with pollinating here is that most production sites are cranberries, and with the pesticides and weak forage, those are pretty hard on bees. So, with my lack of experience and a new operation, I'm much more concerned with building up a strong and resilient stock in the next couple years before further complicating it all with the logistics and potential pitfalls of loaning out my bees.
> 
> I say good luck. If it's interesting to you, and you think it might work, TRY IT! But always be aware that you can fail, and don't overextend yourself. I think starting small isn't a bad idea, but more important is knowing how much is too much to bite off. And that, no one can tell you.


I really appreciate your encouragement. It seems we are in a similar boat. I am young, and looking for somewhere to start spending my time. I realize that sometimes, I do indeed bite off more than I can chew, and so I am balancing that in this venture. 

I feel like I am young enough to start making some mistakes and learning from them, as you said (I bolded.) 

My dad has been a veneer salesman most his life. I have inquired about acquiring solid wood, of good quality for this project, he has informed me he has the connections I need to get a very affordable, regular supply of wood(s). My goal this winter is to build 100 hives, and not all will be used the following spring. I have the free time to invest, I guess I am just going to have ot figure out where to invest my time. I figured making the resources to house the bees was a good start. It will at least save me some start up cost and hopefully get me ahead in the coming years of growth.

There are some excellent queen rearers around here I am learning from, and plan on starting, for practice, next year, as most of my splits are going to need queens, obviously. 

I do not think I ever want to get above much over 250 or so hives, 300 max. In theory, from what I have learned, this should provide me nucs to sell, as well as a small, manageable pollination outfit, and help cover losses. I have a screen printing business that I hope will help me cover bad years, and plan on starting an herb business as well. 

I do not plan on really getting into honey sales, or woodenware sales. My focus will be on nucs and queens, and _possibly_ pollination, depending on life circumstance and the logistics of such an endeavor. I still have much, much, _much_ to learn about becoming an even small scale pollinator. 



EastSideBuzz said:


> So true. 300 is a full time job and with a full time job one gets in the way quite allot. There are many days I am at work knowing that I have to do something since the weather is nice but, cant because of a meeting. Several swarms probably happened because I had to work to pay the bills. Spending every weekend and most evenings drives my wife nuts. This is a true test of our marriage. I might be sleeping with the girls some day and it will be my fault. At least the dog house would be more cozy.
> 
> 
> You need 2 deep brood boxes and 2-3 deep supers and 2-3 western supers per hive. So you can rotate them out of one honey crop into another one and extract in a timely fashion. That is a lot of work to build and paint etc. No way to do more them 100 hives extra each year unless you have a crew to help in the off season to build. Forget vacations.
> 
> 
> Good luck and keep your day job until you grow large enough. You will need the cash. Also if I had it to do over I would do 8 frame deeps.


Thank you also for your post, this is helping me put things into real terms. 

I figured around 70-120 hives starts becoming full time, which is why I'm trying to get to 100 +/- hives in the next two years, and decide what to do from there. 

I am assuming, that by western super you mean a medium box. Why wouldn't I keep all the boxes the same for bee production? This would help aid in making splits, and selling nucs in deep frames, or keep it all mediums and making medium frame nucs? Wouldn't the more universal setup, keeping it all one size, make it easier to checkerboard as well? 

Why wouldn't I just grow more slowly, and sell some splits and use some to grow, and have it more set up to pay for the materials to grow? 




sqkcrk said:


> I wasn't ready to reply w/ a detailed explanation at the time. I imagine that you have heard the saying "Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.", haven't you?
> 
> If you are going to be successful at making beekeeping you occupation you will need a lot of time, money, and hard work. Putting in the hours will take you from your son when you might rather be w/ him. I don't know how old he is, but there are only some times when it will be practical for him to be w/ you when u are working your bees.
> 
> There are plenty of other commercial beekeepers on beesource who can answer your questions perhaps better than I. Hopefully they will chime in.
> 
> Find out, by doing, what it really takes. Find a commercial beekeeper who will employ you or even just go out w/ them for a week. Establish a knowledge of Accounting/Bookeeping. Small Business courses. Access your talents and abilities. Determine how strong your desire is. Will anything stand in your way?
> 
> 
> Best wishes. Doing what you bring up here can be quite fulfilling and at times quite discouraging. It's farming unlike any other farming most people think of when they think of farming.


Well I appreciate you coming back and elaborating. 

My son is two, I am divorced from his mother, which is why I only have him from thursdays until mondays. I hope that when he gets older, I will get him suited up and working with me. Right now, I am trying to develop a strategy to incorperate homeschooling into our way of life. Counting days of lifecycles, crunching finacial figures, and seasonal changes seem to be an interesting and applicable way to incorperate lessons into his day. He is not old enough for him to travel with me on contract work, but his mother has entertained the idea when he is old enough, so that he can travel a bit, and earn it, whilst learning and applying skills. We will see how that goes, and ultimately this will shape the direction I take with my business ventures. 

I find myself, as others find me, fiercely tenacious, and hyper focused even. The ex says I focus so much she thinks I have the kind of focus that constitutes me having asperger's syndrome, I guess being focused and committed isn't as valued in my generation as before. But it has been in my experience that the focused and dedicated are the ones that excel and achieve. 



sqkcrk said:


> Don't try to understand the tone here. We are just trying to be honest and forthright w/ our advice and outlook.


And I appreciate it, I just haven't posted a ton here, and wasn't sure of the general mood. Thanks though. 



hpm08161947 said:


> The tone is serious. If you know enough to consider being a commercial beekeeper, then he will hire you.
> 
> There will be no commute. You will be in CA,. FLA, NC, NJ, and ME and perhaps some other states I can't think of. You will learn to drive a rig, balance a load, position a spreader, strap it, net it,load 3 pallets of double deeps at a time - things you will never learn building your own frames out back. Too many other things to mention here.
> 
> Never forget... a commercial beekeeper is not a big hobbiest.


I go every so often to two local apiaries, this seems to fit my current schedule. I'm learning the basics of apiary management, gaining valuable networking, and learning general practices. I wish I could seize the opportunity you offered, before I had my son, I would have been on that like white on rice. 



Rusty Hills Farm said:


> I am not a commercial beek, but have been at this since the 90s, so I've learned a few things. Since nobody seems to have mentioned it, I will: Namely, the bees do not always cooperate with our plans for them. If you want to be commercial, you NEED to be able to recognize what you are looking at in a hive and already know what to do for it. Bad choices cost you time, money, and bees. That's where working for someone else comes in. They already know these things and can teach you what you need to learn. Any accountant can crunch numbers, but it takes a beekeeper--and a dang good one at that--to manage 50-100-500 colonies without losing half your operation to normal beekeeping catastrophes. Knowing what to do and when to do it is job one.
> 
> Consider this: just this week there have been 3-4 posts from hobbyists about their harvests of 10 lbs per hive. Now look at the posts from the commercial guys about what a banner year they are having and how a few are expecting harvests of 200 lbs from a bunch of their hives. Just HOW do they do that--that's what you need to learn if you expect to feed your family from your hives. They already know how to cover their yearly losses. They already know how to build their numbers. They already know WHERE to place their hives so they won't lose half their bees each year to chemicals. And they know how to extract the resulting crop and sell it for the best prices. Selling 20-40-60 THOUSAND lbs of honey profitably takes a whole different set of skills from selling at the local farmer's market.
> 
> All of these things are VERY learnable. The trick is to learn them from OTHER PEOPLE'S MISTAKES and not your own.
> 
> Good luck with this. If I were just starting out, I'd be thinking the same as you and looking hard at the beekeeper's life, too. Have fun with your journey! :thumbsup:
> 
> JMO
> 
> 
> Rusty


Thanks for the encouragement! 

What I am currently trying to figure out, aside from more advanced skills and practices, is exactly how many hives I would like to average, and what kind of income and time commitment each "tier" supports. For example, 10 hives is much different from managing 100 hives, which is different still from 300 hives. I'm trying to figure out what number is going to best work for me. 10 hives does not seem like enough, 500 seems like too much, but also opens doors. Trying to learn from other beekeepers with varying numbers of hives, and how they manage them, and their potential _average_ income the number of hives support is where I am. 

I simply do not know if 100 hives is enough to make more than supplemental income, or if I might as well have 200, andmake a decent living. 

So realistically, do I want to be a hardcore sideliner, earning substantial income from 100+/- hives, selling cuttings from herbs and plants I grow, or do I want to go small scale commercial and have 200+/- and rely mainly (because of time restrictions) on bees for income?




sqkcrk said:


> You mentioned being in the Navy. (Thanks for your service.) So you know hwo to take orders, I assume, and have lived under someone else telling you what to do and when to do it. *You may have also learned to do things when you can and not when you want to.* Are you selfmotivated? Are you your best employee or do you work better and harder for someone else?
> 
> If the weather isn't ideal, maybe raining even, will you be out in the bees putting on supers or getting soaking wet moving bees to another location?
> 
> Are you a workaholic? It wouldn't hurt.


Right on. I definitely learned that things need to be done on or even before they need to be done, and not when it is convenient for me. I am very self motivated. I work hardest for myself, because I work hardest when I fully understand the goal, and not some ambiguous direction bestowed upon me by someone else's goals and desires. I enjoy working independantly, or in small groups. 

Rain, not a problem. Mind over matter makes me a stronger person. 




MNbees said:


> First you need to be: trucker, mechanic, plumber, electrician, carpenter, machine operator, and most of all, crazy!!


Crazy: check.



hpm08161947 said:


> This reminded me of a rather large commercial beekeeper (3500 hives) - who when queried about why he would not hive a guy with 20 years of experience.... replied "It would take me 20 years to unteach him what he already thinks he knows!" "Blank Slates" can be very trainable. Besides the only real requirement seems to be a strong back and a strong work ethic - a CDL would not hurt...


That makes sense. It seems harder to unlearn something than to learn something.....


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## EastSideBuzz

hpm08161947 said:


> Yea... I like it. Pretty sure that a Commercial Beekeeper and a hobbiest are two different critters. Perhaps that explains the tension that exists between the two groups?


Yea, There is a difference. I am at 300 and they still give me flack. They consider me a hobbyist. If you have a day job then you are not commercial until your sole income is from bee farming. Even then it is up for discussion with retirement and SS adding to the pie.

Hobbyist think they know stuff and they do on a small scale. Keeping 2 hives alive is different then 10k and it is not just a multiplication factor. They/we have no idea what it is like to do it on a mammoth scale. You cant feel the stress and pain until you are large. 

I am still small compared to commercial guys with thousands of hives. The largest guy in my state has like 17 beekeepers working for him and he is 50 times bigger then me. I cant even fathom it. He buys a dozen tankers of syrup --> I buy a tote --> hobbyist buy a bucket, Big difference.

So yes there is friction. Most big commercial guys don't post here. There is nothing in it for them. They have their circle and they call each other. They are typically old timers and have been doing this before us yuppie computer guys. There is not much place for computers in a large operation but, in the back office. There is no software that you cant take out in the field that will help you do a better job. A queen dies your replace her and keep count. Knowing which hive produces more out of thousands is not important, a over achieving yard is good to know. You equalize them and keep going.


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## GuyDurden

I have no idea what at tote of syrup would cost, or even how many hives that would feed. I cannot imagine what a tanker of syrup would cost! That's a ton (literally?") of syrup......


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## sqkcrk

Do what you do best and pay for the rest.

A Professor when i was in school in Ohio posed the idea that a Dairy Farm only needed enough land for what it took for the barn, milk house, grain and hay storage and acreage necassary to spread the manure on. The Dairy will be more profitable buying all of the feed, rather than owning or renting land to grow crops on and not having to own all of the special equipment for the planting and harvesting.

The same may be true for beekeeping. The time one spends building hive bodies and supers from locally milled lumber may be better spent doing something income producing. Like more t-shirts.

Food for thought.


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## sqkcrk

GuyDurden said:


> I have no idea what at tote of syrup would cost, or even how many hives that would feed. I cannot imagine what a tanker of syrup would cost! That's a ton (literally?") of syrup......


250 gallons times 12lb/gallon at .45/lb =$1350.00/tote feeds 250 hives once. Often one needs to feed more than once just to get bees to a nectar flow time.


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## Keith Jarrett

sqkcrk said:


> Do what you do best and pay for the rest.
> 
> A Professor when i was in school Food for thought.


Well said, Mark


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## sqkcrk

Keith Jarrett said:


> Well said, Mark


Thanks Keith. That means something to me, coming from you. 

I have no idea how to make Protein Substitute and almost no desire to learn how. Too bad you aren't closer. My wife will be visiting our daughter near Sacremento. But I don't think she can bring back enuf of your product in her baggage to make it worth while. lol


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## hpm08161947

GuyDurden said:


> I have no idea what at tote of syrup would cost, or even how many hives that would feed. I cannot imagine what a tanker of syrup would cost! That's a ton (literally?") of syrup......


A tote usually weighs in around 1.5 tons.....

Sounds like your real desire is to be a sideliner, since your are immobile and limit yourself to around 200 hives. To sustain a "Middle Class" lifestyle seems to require about 2000 hives at least IMHO. I have not seen many split there way to that level, it usually means buying operations, which means a credit line, which requires some work experience.... so I am back to Timmy Holt  But there is nothing wrong with a 200 hive sideliner operation - but these guys are not called commercial beekeepers.


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## EastSideBuzz

GuyDurden said:


> I have no idea what at tote of syrup would cost,


Cost me close to a grand weighed 3k or so. That was one feeding. Even my forklift had a tough time getting it off the truck. Oh yea you need a truck that can handle 3k. 

The price break is at 17 totes.  Could not get that together this year.


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## Keith Jarrett

sqkcrk said:


> Thanks Keith. That means something to me, coming from you.


Thanks for the kind words Mark... but lets not get carried away here. lol

But you bring up a very important point Mark, do what you do best and buy the rest. I buy all my assembled boxes from Shastina mill works & all my pre-assembled frames from Dadant, I think it was around 3,000 this winter. They do a good job, and I don't want to compete against a machine to find out who can do it the cheapest.

It's not much different than my Nutra Bee sub, what pushed me in that direction was the stuff at the bee supply house's just wasn't getting the job done, as I sell alot of bees in the spring, I want something that works.


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## hedges

My only real piece of advice is to make sure you know what the wood is you're getting. Kiln-dried stuff won't warp, but costs more. It's all about weighing the cost vs reward, but I can't imagine warped hives are worth much.

Beyond that, if you're going to have a yard, you should look into planting a good crop that gets good yield increases from pollination and has a good value at market. Raspberries come to mind if you can plant them in such a way that they don't get out of control - raspberries get a ~30% yield increase in weight from aggressive bee pollination (they don't produce more fruit, but the fruit are substantially bigger) and raspberries can sell for a premium. Other fruits like apple get larger yield increases, but perhaps aren't quite as nutritious, shall we say, to bees.


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## sqkcrk

Sorry hedges, I disagree, I know no commercial beekeepers who plant bee feed plants. I have as yet not been shown the economic worth/benefit to planting bee feed. Commercial Beekeepers take advantage of naturally occuring sources of nectar and pollen or nectar and pollen plants grown by other farmers.


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## hedges

Well, I wouldn't call this a conversation about professional beekeepers - the reasons having been delineated earlier in the thread. I also think you misunderstand me. The man lives on a small farm. My point was that if he's going to have an apiary there, he'd be adding easy revenue to have a high profit, low maintenance crop which received some benefit from the extra pollination he's providing with it. The principle is really the same as any agricultural pollination.

If I can make 20 grand with my apiary, or 20 grand with my apiary and also have a booming u pick blueberry field, or better yet - something easily harvestable which has a high retail price (Chinese chestnuts come to mind, idk) that brings in an extra 5 grand a year, it seems like a no brainer.


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## hpm08161947

hedges said:


> If I can make 20 grand with my apiary, or 20 grand with my apiary and also have a booming u pick blueberry field, or better yet - something easily harvestable which has a high retail price (Chinese chestnuts come to mind, idk) that brings in an extra 5 grand a year, it seems like a no brainer.


To make $20,000 from 200 hives is doing extremely well - particularly without pollination contracts. What kind of acreage are you planting to feed your bees?


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## EastSideBuzz

$20,000 from 200 hives and he does not have to move them. I want that gig.

We get so side tracked so easily.


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## sqkcrk

hedges said:


> Well, I wouldn't call this a conversation about professional beekeepers - the reasons having been delineated earlier in the thread. I also think you misunderstand me. The man lives on a small farm. My point was that if he's going to have an apiary there, he'd be adding easy revenue to have a high profit, low maintenance crop which received some benefit from the extra pollination he's providing with it. The principle is really the same as any agricultural pollination.
> 
> If I can make 20 grand with my apiary, or 20 grand with my apiary and also have a booming u pick blueberry field, or better yet - something easily harvestable which has a high retail price (Chinese chestnuts come to mind, idk) that brings in an extra 5 grand a year, it seems like a no brainer.


You wouldn't? It's right there in the Thread title. And this is the Commercial Beekeeping Forum. I guess I missed the part where he mentioned living on a small farm. More money to be made on the hay than the nectar or pollen from it.

Have you CLEARED 20 grand your apiary? Have you grown a blueberry crop? The guy whose blueberrys I pollinate could probably teach us all a thing or two. He grows blueberrys and I manage beehives. He does what he knows how to do and I do what I know how to do.


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## johnbeejohn

great thread here


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## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> Have you grown a blueberry crop? The guy whose blueberrys I pollinate could probably teach us all a thing or two. He grows blueberrys and I manage beehives. He does what he knows how to do and I do what I know how to do.


Did you get a big honey crop off those Blueberrys? Seems like I remember feeding them a little syrup  

I've never seen blueberries produce a honey crop to speak of. Guess they do get some pollen.


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## sqkcrk

No I didn't. But I heard I was getting some Jelly off of them. lol


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## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> No I didn't. But I heard I was getting some Jelly off of them. lol


Soon, very soon.

Maybe that's how Hedges made the $20,000.... selling blueberry jam..... A lot more jam than honey.


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## hedges

I was just making an example. I never said I made 20 grand off blueberries. I never said I was some large-scale beekeeper. Not to be gruff (I don't feel gruff, so it's not my intention to come off that way), but you seem like you're just reading my post out of context and picking it apart, but I don't think the things I wrote there were particularly outlandish things to say in the greater context of the thread.

You probably know a lot better than I do about the right way to center his business, as I am a novice beekeeper just looking to expand myself, so I defer to your judgement. I was just making what I thought was an innocent suggestion about forage.

On a semi-related note, how is 20 grand from 200 hives an outrageous amount? That's like 100 dollars a hive for the year's production. Unless you're getting really low yields or selling your honey for basement prices with no other revenue stream from your bee business, I would think you could clear that. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm a new beekeeper, so I don't mean to come off as being rude. I'm sure volume business has all sorts of other concerns, economic constraints and labor focuses than a small-scale operation.


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## Fishman43

I have a yard surrounded by managed HB blue berries, rarely have I seen the bees working the flowers. On the other hand the low bush blue berry mountains up the road a stretch seem to provide enough extra to put some weight on the hives.


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## sqkcrk

Expenses hedges. What about the expenses?

What does it cost to maintain a viable hive of bees? Maybe some of the Commercial Beekeepers can tell us? I have never tried to figure that out in my own operation, but a friend of mine w/ 7 times the number I have says it's something like $175.00 annually. So, even before you can imagine making a Profit your hive has to more than pay for itself.

There's a lot more to doing commercial beekeeping than most people can imagine, let alone know.


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## hedges

Well, I guess it depends on where you draw the line of expenses and where you draw the line on profit. I mean, you could reinvest every cent you make back into expansion and say you don't make a dime as a beekeeper. But if he's at a point where he's got a stable infrastructure built out, and he wants to get to ~200-300 hives which he manages himself, then the expenses are certainly lower, to say the least. He's not paying labor.

If he's woodworking with cheap supplies, let's say he's spending...20 bucks on a nuc. and selling them for what? 100 dollars? (to use rounded numbers). So, a healthy hive can give him say 2 nucs, conservatively, early in the season, and net him 160 bucks...and still allow him to pull off nurse bees and/or split for pollination and/or build up a modest honey harvest. His other listed activities would have to operate at a net loss, and then his other maintenance expenses would have to eat up 60 bucks to get back under the 100 dollar per hive level.

I'm not trying to be snotty. I'm really not. But what are the other huge expenses?


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## Roland

I am going to be the south end of a north bound mule:

There is a catch 22. Any smart beekeeper is not going to teach you everything he knows for free. That is giving the farm away for free. Alot of their knowledge is hard earned, and they would be a fool to hand it out freely.On the other hand, anyone willing to educate you for free MAY not have knowledge worth having. 

Add one more skill to the list: Microbiologist. We seem to be adding new pests faster than cures.



Crazy(at least I got that part right) Roland


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## sqkcrk

I guess I could get out my Profit or Loss from Farming and read it off to you, but I'm not going to do that.

I need a new deck on my truck and new tires too, on my F-450. I can't write them off, since I claim mileage. Fuel is one of my bigest expenses. Repairs and maintanences. Nuf for now.


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## sqkcrk

hedges said:


> Well, I guess it depends on where you draw the line of expenses and where you draw the line on profit.


First off u forgot to mention Loss. It doesn't matter where I draw the line of expenses and where I draw the line on profit. The way I understand it, Profit is what moneys are left over after you have subtracted Expenses from Income. If there is anything left over that's the Profit. To get $20,000.00, your number of choice, you'd have to have $100,000.00 Income and $80,000.00 in Expenses. Many years that has been hard to do.


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## sqkcrk

hedges, we go thru this discussion once or twice a year. I don't mind your questions or statements. I hope you don't mind my replys. I tell it like I have seen it, have lived it.


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## GuyDurden

sqkcrk said:


> Do what you do best and pay for the rest.
> 
> A Professor when i was in school ....
> 
> ......The same may be true for beekeeping. The time one spends building hive bodies and supers from locally milled lumber may be better spent doing something income producing. Like more t-shirts.
> 
> Food for thought.


This is indeed food for thought, and I appreciate this input greatly. Yes, I have toyed with the idea of turning shirt revenue into beehives, and going from there, but I don't stay up late into the night learning more about the shirt business, I leave that to the long term girlfriend who has been great to both my son, my bees, and I. That's her passion, I just invested in it, and help out when the bees want me to leave them alone, so to speak. 

I don't go to shirt printing conventions, I don't buy volumes, nor intend to about it, I don't even remotely want to go to school for it. But it is doing well for me and quenches my thirst for being involved with bees by taking what little I do know, and observe as beautiful, and turning it into a design to sell to some other beek who wants more than just hives in the yard, who wants a shirt to show off as a conversational piece when they are out in the human hive. 

What it boils down to, is I am not _passionate_ about shirt printing like I am about plants and bees, or the natural world in general. I could see myself keeping it up small time, but it is not ideally how I would like to spend my life, nor to make my mark. It is providing income _right now_ so it will continue, until I get something else built up I really like to spend my energies on. I like plants, plants got me into bees, the symbiotic relationship just seems to fit with who I want to be(e), what I want to work with, and around, ya know?



hpm08161947 said:


> A tote usually weighs in around 1.5 tons.....
> 
> Sounds like your real desire is to be a sideliner, since your are immobile and limit yourself to around 200 hives........ But there is nothing wrong with a 200 hive sideliner operation - but these guys are not called commercial beekeepers.


Are we thinking about the same totes? I was thinking about those squarish white plastic containers, they sometimes use in aquaponics, or for rainwater catchment and the like. of course chemical storage and all that as well im sure....

Anyway, you are probably right, but I wouldn't quite say I am limiting myself to 200 hives. I would like 200 hives to be a 2 or 3 year goal, see what it takes, what the potential is for me, and go from there. Be it stay at 200, or exponentially grow. I don't think I can split my way up to 2000 in a reasonable time, and personally I would worry about inbreeding after awhile, but I'm not too sure how that starts to play in over time. 

What I do like, is to entertain the idea of having 200 hives one year, and deciding to go out, and pollinate, start growing, and see where I could "hover" to make a comfortable income. After 200 hives, I would probably need employees. I have no idea what to pay an employee in this line of work, but that's later on. 

Your 2000 hives figure is what I was looking for. It is your opinion that it takes that many to live "middle" class comfortably. This is what I was looking for. So this year, I know how to manage 4 hives, next year hopefully the learning curve (personally) will allow me to learn how to manage 20-40 hives. The next year is dependent on so many things, but before I start to even fathom where I am going, I was trying to get some opinions on what it would take to be a small(er) commercial outfit, or if it was even feasible, without inheriting a company, or knowing the right folks, or some unknown. For example, I can't go open up a bank because I like working with money, it would just require too much. Too much red tape, too much money (If i had that kind of money, I wouldn't want to be a banker anyway!) those kinds of things.

2000 makes sense. I'm not sure what your definition of "middle" class income would be in this day and age, or if that is _profits_ etc etc. 

I can understand why someone might say $20,000 from 200 hives, when I first started pipe-dreaming, that's what I was thinking. One of the apiaries around here makes about ten splits from an established hive. I say 5 is realistic. 5x100 hives @ 125 per split (the nuc you make) take ten for the cardboard box, ten for frames, you are roughly profiting around 100 a split, @ 500 splits, it just seems like good money. Take the other 100 and send them to almonds or something at 135 a hive, or 125 a hive, and add that, and the additional splits to restock your apiary....in theory.....

But then reading into it, I'm thinking this sounds too good to be true....What about how many hives fail in winter, disease throughout the year, swarms, feeding cost because you have a ton of hives in a small area with not enough forage, replacing broken equipment, the time it takes to run all this, etc etc and the suspected profits start to blur. So you supplement by selling queens, but it still doesn't seem right. 

So what I did, was in addition to trying to find technical books on the matter, try to find one about becoming more commercial, tried to find some videos, tried to find SOMETHING and came up empty handed. So I thought I would toss the idea around here some. I wanna know, how much is reasonable for a one man operation, with some help time to time I suppose, to make a living from? Then, what about actually taking it from sideliner, to hardcore sideliner, to commercial. I'm trying to figure out some goals, and where as idealistic as i am, think I might fit. 




hedges said:


> My only real piece of advice is to make sure you know what the wood is you're getting. Kiln-dried stuff won't warp, but costs more. It's all about weighing the cost vs reward, but I can't imagine warped hives are worth much.
> 
> Beyond that, if you're going to have a yard, you should look into planting a good crop that gets good yield increases from pollination and has a good value at market.


I like the idea, but I would have to work up to having so much more land. I plant 2 acres of buckwheat, and 2 acres of clover for my current hives, plus the garden, plus my stock of plants to take cuttings from for sale or excess, what have you. There will always be plants here we try to grow and sell, or eat, but I think after so many hives, pick your own would become a liability, and I would be moving on to other ventures, such as pollination anyway. Great idea though, I do love to see the cells fill up with dark honey just after it starts to bloom!

Edit: Oh, and as far as the wood, sound advice. My dad has been in the wood industry my whole life, my dad knows what kinds does what under what conditions, where any supply I might get comes from, anything I could ever want to know and then some about the wood. He would be giving me the direction as to what woods to use. After all, it is what he does, a customer says, I need wood for such and such, and he says, well such and such wood is good for that, and so forth.


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## EastSideBuzz

hpm08161947 said:


> Did you get a big honey crop off those Blueberrys? Seems like I remember feeding them a little syrup
> 
> I've never seen blueberries produce a honey crop to speak of. Guess they do get some pollen.


In blueberries you feed that is why you charge more. You get pollen but, BB is not great for bee's real hard on them. IMHO

Yes totes are the white boxes http://www.gottagosurplus.com/Pallet_Liquid_Containers_photo1.jpg


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## jim lyon

Its kind of hard to make generalizations about expenses with such a wide range of differing operations in different parts of the country. Also, economies of scale can substantially reduce per hive overhead costs. I would think, though, that most commercials should be able to stay in the $100 dollar per hive range. For us the major expenses are labor, freight, feed and woodenware/foundation replacement, pretty much in that order. Major capital expenditures are trucks, forklifts, extracting equipment, and facility upgrades. On the other hand spending more may well net you a far greater return....no better example than a well run pollen sub program or a migratory relocation.


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## GuyDurden

I did not see this last page before I posted. haha.

I was seriously thinking along the lines of hedges about this, but admitingly don't know much about how the business works, obviously. 

I know there are expenses, but I cannot fathom how much expenses are, besides feed, and treatments if you go that route. Yea, eventually mortgage and stuff, tires as previously mentioned, but I'm just not seeing how one can't make a decent living on 200 hives, not even factoring in honey production. I've solely been contemplating queens, nuts, and every once in a while selling pollen to health food stores and the like as pollen bound hives are a plenty around here. 


I am not expecting someone to hand me over their years of hard work in gaining knowledge, but surely there has to be some starting point for someone in my (and hedges?) situation. So rather than killing bees, and loosing years of my life investing in something I possibly have been way, way off about just waiting for the final days I see return that never happen, I was looking for a good starting point. 

I just don't see the huge deal, other than work ethic and high start up costs. Yea, those are indeed big deals, but with every apiary around here A) *ALWAYS* sold out of queens, nucs, and packages, additionally, most seem to be sourcing their stock from georgia, why not cut myself a niche and be a local guy? Surely it can be done. Perhaps I am too hopeful and unrealistic, but at least hedges and I were on similar pages in our thinking. 

I don't think anyone is being a smarty, direct, yes, but not purposfully mean. It can be quite difficult to communicate with others face to face, just think about all the tone, body language, and word emphasis to name a few we are missing out on in this forum, only reading words from others.


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## GuyDurden

jim lyon said:


> Its kind of hard to make generalizations about expenses with such a wide range of differing operations in different parts of the country. Also, economies of scale can substantially reduce per hive overhead costs. I would think, though, that most commercials should be able to stay in the $100 dollar per hive range. For us the major expenses are labor, freight, feed ,......


That's one of the main things I am trying to figure out. What does it cost, roughly, to freight say, 100 hives from say the eastern seaboard to the west, and back. 

What bits of information I miss out on, is obviously weight of a hive, full of bees and comb, how high you stack them, how all this gets moved on and off, do pallets stack 2 high? three? Just seems like alot I'm missing. 

100 hives seems more than reasonable in my current trajectory in 2 years time. 3 maybe. Just trying to see what I might profit from say a "dream" (just seems so common, a good place to start rather) almond contract? Getting them on something early seems to make sense for making splits to sell, or grow with, etc etc....


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## jim lyon

Guy: The tough thing is getting to a profitability point when you are starting from scratch. You are getting some good advice here, from some pretty experienced guys. First learn a bit more about the business and the lifestyle required to be successful with some first hand experience. Sure it can be done, but you can also fail at it just as easily because unless you have some pretty good cash reserves you have so little margin for error. You must make a large investment both in time and money but the good news is that currently honey prices and pollination rates are at all time highs so the potential is there but so is the risk.


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## jim lyon

GuyDurden said:


> That's one of the main things I am trying to figure out. What does it cost, roughly, to freight say, 100 hives from say the eastern seaboard to the west, and back.
> 
> What bits of information I miss out on, is obviously weight of a hive, full of bees and comb, how high you stack them, how all this gets moved on and off, do pallets stack 2 high? three? Just seems like alot I'm missing.
> 
> 100 hives seems more than reasonable in my current trajectory in 2 years time. 3 maybe. Just trying to see what I might profit from say a "dream" (just seems so common, a good place to start rather) almond contract? Getting them on something early seems to make sense for making splits to sell, or grow with, etc etc....


The short answer is $3 per loaded mile, one way to haul 1 lb. or 48,000 lbs.....but you have to have trucks to pool them, equipment to load them, someone you trust to handle them on the other end, though it's best to travel yourself to care for them personally which requires feed, supplements, facilities, equipment and of course none of this is cheap. It's a bit difficult to put a simple price tag on all of this. But just 100 hives in this scenario I am afraid just really dosent pencil out unless you can "piggy back" with someone.


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## EastSideBuzz

jim lyon said:


> But just 100 hives in this scenario I am afraid just really dosent pencil out unless you can "piggy back" with someone.


I am 300 hives and I am still not commercial. Just a sideliner. I take my hives to almonds but, that is because I can drive there in less then a day. 

The title of this thread is a bit deceiving there is no way to go from 2 hives to commercial in less then 5 years unless you buy an existing operation. So not sure what we are going to get out of this thread.


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## Barry

sqkcrk said:


> I need a new deck on my truck and new tires too, on my F-450. I can't write them off, since I claim mileage. Fuel is one of my bigest expenses. Repairs and maintanences. Nuf for now.


Mark, have you ever looked into incorporating? Saved me some real money in my business.


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## sqkcrk

GuyDurden said:


> I know there are expenses, but I cannot fathom how much expenses are,
> 
> selling pollen to health food stores and the like as pollen bound hives are a plenty around here.
> 
> why not cut myself a niche and be a local guy? Surely it can be done.


Of course you can fathom it because you are on the outside looking in at all you see probably seeing ther trucks and other equipment not realizing that that new truck belongs to the Bank not the beekeeper. They just let him use it for a hefty month fee.

Selling pollen to healthfood stores? There is a reason no one else in your area is doing it. The economics of it. Not worth the trouble and the costs.

Cut yourself a queen and package niche? Sure, you could do that. But again, why hasn't someone else already done that? There are reasons why the major queen and package producers are, and have been for decades, further south from you.

I don't mean to rain on your parade. But you are dreaming too big and too much right now. I'm sure you will come out of it eventually when the rubber meets the road. Go see your local commercial beekeeper, as Herb suggested. Take him to lunch or dinner and see if you can pick his brain for an hour. I bet you'd get an education on why things are the way they are in NC.

Get him to let you go out to the bees w/ him once a week or more. He might even pay you. He might need a Grunt and a Gofer. Though he probably won't let you do the fun stuff like run the skidsteer.


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## sqkcrk

GuyDurden said:


> That's one of the main things I am trying to figure out. What does it cost, roughly, to freight say, 100 hives from say the eastern seaboard to the west, and back.
> 
> Just seems like alot I'm missing.


$2.50 to $3.00/mile.

Yes, there is. I think u may be doing a lot of cart before the horse thinking which could be quite discouraging.


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## sqkcrk

Barry said:


> Mark, have you ever looked into incorporating? Saved me some real money in my business.


Thought about it. Didn't see the benefit. Maybe we should talk. Things I could learn too.


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## sqkcrk

Guy,
You can't start to think about employees until you get to where you need them. Two hundred hives isn't that point. Fivehundred you will feel you need an employee, one. But you will need to have 500 more to pay for him. And you will have to be fortunate enough to find the right person who will work as hard as you do when you want him to for as little as you can afford to pay him.


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## hpm08161947

GuyDurden said:


> I just don't see the huge deal, other than work ethic and high start up costs. Yea, those are indeed big deals, but with every apiary around here A) *ALWAYS* sold out of queens, nucs, and packages, additionally, most seem to be sourcing their stock from georgia, why not cut myself a niche and be a local guy? Surely it can be done. Perhaps I am too hopeful and unrealistic, but at least hedges and I were on similar pages in our thinking.
> 
> .


Who are these Apiaries around Randolph, NC? Are they commercial beekeepers? Or are they just sideliners? I only know of 3 truly commercial beekeepers in NC (Siloam, Mebane, and Harrells). The difference between sideliner and Commercial Beekeeper is enormous - Commercial Beekeeping requires a dramatic lifestyle change. The title of your thread, indicates you want to be a Commercial Beekeeper - this is going to require "Passion", and if you lack this passion and only have "Interest".... then you may want to start a new thread entitled "I want to be a Sideliner". But lets assume this passion exists.... if Siloam is too far for you... then drive down to Mebane, NC and talk to Jeff Lee (good talker BTW) and he speaks the truth. It's only about 50 miles from Randolph. He is a single guy running about 1500 -2000 hives from CA to ME, and he can wax eloquently on woes and elations that come from commercial beekeeping. You don't have to work for him... just talk to him... that would be a start.


----------



## hpm08161947

GuyDurden said:


> Yea, those are indeed big deals, but with every apiary around here A) *ALWAYS* sold out of queens, nucs, and packages, additionally, most seem to be sourcing their stock from georgia, .


Yea... there is a reason they are coming from GA... very southern GA at that! There is also a reason I get my oranges from FLA and not NC.... check it out.


----------



## sqkcrk

Best appropraite advice for where Guy is geographically and this time in his life.


----------



## D Semple

I find this thread totally depressing.

Working towards 300 colonies myself to supplement retirement income. Would like to think I could net 30 - 40 k annually. 


Don


----------



## mnbeekeeper

D Semple said:


> I find this thread totally depressing.
> 
> Working towards 300 colonies myself to supplement retirement income. Would like to think I could net 30 - 40 k annually.
> 
> 
> Don


seems like we need a positive story here. so look at me for example. last year was my first year owning my OWN hives. for the last 8 years i have worked for a 2000+ outfit. that is where i learned everything i need to know how to run a commercial outfit.

last year 200 hives made me just over 24k and i spent every penny right back on the bees. this year im at 400 i have a little debt. like say 20k. but i expect to recover that no problem and have cash flow to expand and operate next year. i should also say i didnt go to cali for pollination i went to texas to build bees. so my profit was from bulk honey sales alone. 

i still work part time for the other outfit. but i can tell you i would never have been able to do any of this if it wasnt for the things i learned and did while working for a large outfit for many years. it is all about the secrets and tricks of the trait. if you think you can just jump into commercial beekeeping you can just as well figure you can walk into a hospital and preform surgery. there is just to many things to know and things that can go wrong. i remember my first days riding around with my old boss that is retired now. i would think to myself how could i ever have a bee business on my own. there is just so much to it. but with some help of some real great people and with the good prices being paid right now it started to happen. 

its not always a bad story there are lots of great stories. like for me this spring was great. after 8 springs of being the guy who loaded out of east texas i got to load up my semi jump in the semi and wake up in MN and unload my new flatbed texas truck and unload my bees and i was home for another year. no better feeling!!!! exept then it snowed a foot and i was driving around feeding and shoveling snow in may. that was a new one.

if its so easy why isnt every one doing it. after years of sore backs and wishing you were rich faster in life you will really understand what that line means.


----------



## hpm08161947

mnbeekeeper said:


> last year 200 hives made me just over 24k and i spent every penny right back on the bees. this year im at 400 i have a little debt. like say 20k. but i expect to recover that no problem and have cash flow to expand and operate next year.


So you grossed 24K and put 24K back in.... so your profit was 0. This confusion over gross and net maybe part of our problem on this thread.


----------



## mnbeekeeper

never claimed to profit anything but i do see where your coming from. i said the bees made 24k. and i spent it all back on them. im broke and waiting for a crop. hope it comes.


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## Level 4

$175.00 to maintain a hive per year? Not trying to be condecending, just think it sounds a little high.


----------



## hpm08161947

Level 4 said:


> $175.00 to maintain a hive per year? Not trying to be condecending, just think it sounds a little high.


Remember we are not talking about a hive setting in your backyard - we are talking about a commercial's hive and that is going to include Sub, syrup, mite treatments, and the many miles that hive will travel in a year.


----------



## EastSideBuzz

Level 4 said:


> $175.00 to maintain a hive per year? Not trying to be condescending, just think it sounds a little high.


That is low from what I am told by some big guys. Bottom line is grow slow have a dream. We are just giving you reality and you probably don't want to hear or understand it. Bee keepers are not rich and getting there is tough. Start with a million in your bee business and have a spare million so you can still be a millionaire.


----------



## sqkcrk

D Semple said:


> I find this thread totally depressing.
> 
> Working towards 300 colonies myself to supplement retirement income. Would like to think I could net 30 - 40 k annually.
> 
> 
> Don


Me too. But why be depressed? It isn't worth the depression.


----------



## sqkcrk

Level 4 said:


> $175.00 to maintain a hive per year? Not trying to be condecending, just think it sounds a little high.


Feel free to tell us what it costs you. $175.00 may well be high, it's a ballpark figure.


----------



## Brian Suchan

mnbeekeeper said:


> never claimed to profit anything but i do see where your coming from. i said the bees made 24k. and i spent it all back on them. im broke and waiting for a crop. hope it comes.


mnbeekeeper hit the nail on the head that is the perfect example of what it will be like starting out!!!


----------



## jim lyon

A few points:
Labor includes your own labor, whether you are paying someone else or yourself or both, time has value. Your kids need shoes too. 

$175 per hive? The only way you should be getting much over about $100 per hive is if you are buying a lot of replacement bees and those you should be raising yourself. 

If you arent directly funding depreciation (virtually no small start ups can afford to) you should at least be aware that at some point equipment needs replaced and its a risky situation to constantly operate one blown truck engine away from being broke. Its difficult to put a price tag on lost productivity and potential lost income when equipment goes down.


----------



## hpm08161947

jim lyon said:


> $175 per hive? The only way you should be getting much over about $100 per hive is if you are buying a lot of replacement bees and those you should be raising yourself.
> .


Are you factoring in the cost of transporting those bees.... from TX to CA to SD all in one year? I am thinking that your total expenditures divided by number of hives is the way to arrive at cost per hive.


----------



## sqkcrk

Brian Suchan said:


> mnbeekeeper hit the nail on the head that is the perfect example of what it will be like starting out!!!


What did he live on himself than? Or is that where his debt came from?


----------



## jim lyon

hpm08161947 said:


> Are you factoring in the cost of transporting those bees.... from TX to CA to SD all in one year? I am thinking that your total expenditures divided by number of hives is the way to arrive at cost per hive.


All my trucking per year is around $20. The fuel I burn in my trucks amounts to another $5 per hive. I am sure tires, vehicle repairs, depreciation and insurance would add another 5 to $10. 
Hmmm. I did give myself a little wiggle room by saying "much over $100"


----------



## jbeshearse

jim lyon said:


> All my trucking per year is around $20. The fuel I burn in my trucks amounts to another $5 per hive. I am sure tires, vehicle repairs, depreciation and insurance would add another 5 to $10.
> Hmmm. I did give myself a little wiggle room by saying "much over $100"



I will venture out on a limb here and say there is no such person as a commercial beekeeper. By the time someone reaches that magical number of hives currently considered “commercial”, somewhere above 1000, they are probably no longer beekeepers but business managers. I would imagine the beekeeping enterprise owner spends less than 10% of his time actually working in the field with the hives he owns. As you go up in hive count, the percentage of overall time you spend on your beekeeping enterprise consists more and more of business management and less and less of “beekeeping”. You go from puttering around in hives to dealing with transportation, personnel, taxes, regulations, negotiations, etc.

Also, when you talk cost per hive to maintain a hive, each person includes different things in that number. Are you including just the things that the normal hive needs to survive (extra frames/boxes/medication) or are you taking all the expenses you incurred in your enterprise and dividing it by the number of hives you have? A meaningless number to anyone but yourself as you are the only one that knows what it includes.

Correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## sqkcrk

Okay. Yes, you are wrong. I am a commercial beekeeper at 500 hives. My livelihood and family is supported by beekeeping. I manage all of my hives.

A friend of mine owns 3500 colonies and has employees, yet he works hives almost literally every day. He doesn't manipulate combs in every hive, but he works the yards right along w/ his employees and his wife who works hand in hand w/ him. He has employees who work in the honey house extracting and bottling and distributing.

David Hackenberg and Davey Jr work their hives, thousands, maybe you've seen them in some of the many movies these last cpl of years moving bees to pollination.

Those two guys do all of the things you mentioned and work the hives themselves too. Supering taking off honey, medicating, feeding, moving, splitting/making nucs, etc.

Costs of maintaining hives include medication and treatments, feed, protein patties, labor, transportation, queens, equipment, etc. all to do w/ having a hive ready to pollinate crops and produce a honey crop.


----------



## mnbeekeeper

sqkcrk said:


> What did he live on himself than? Or is that where his debt came from?


the debt is all stuff for the bees. i said i still worked part time. actually living costs are quite cheap. its the bees that eat up all the money. and then there is wants of toys and vacations.



also i agree there is a point in a outfit when the owner of the hives doesnt work like a owner of a sole working keeper. sure i know a few commercial guys that run just over 1000 hives and hire very little if any help. only because they are getting to old to handle it other wise they would be doing it alone. i will work alone as long as my body allows. i hate trying to teach some one just working at a job. not passionate about the bees. but i would say once you get over a couple thousand you must rely on help and they do the work and you keep the show running.


----------



## sqkcrk

Income has a number of sources. Maybe you work for another beekeeper part time. Maybe you work a full time job. The bees bring in Income from pollination, honey sales, nuc sales, etc.. Those are all Income.

Expenses come from everything one spends on the business. 

Profit comes from having more Income , from the Business, than Expenses. Loss (ie: Debt) comes from spending more on the Business than what the Business made in Income. As shown on one's Schedule F rofit or Loss from Farming.

Some have been using the words Profit and Income interchangebly.


----------



## GuyDurden

jim lyon said:


> Guy: The tough thing is getting to a profitability point when you are starting from scratch. You are getting some good advice here, from some pretty experienced guys. First learn a bit more about the business and the lifestyle required to be successful with some first hand experience. Sure it can be done, but you can also fail at it just as easily because unless you have some pretty good cash reserves you have so little margin for error. You must make a large investment both in time and money but the good news is that currently honey prices and pollination rates are at all time highs so the potential is there but so is the risk.





jim lyon said:


> Guy: The tough thing is getting to a profitability point when you are starting from scratch. You are getting some good advice here, from some pretty experienced guys....
> ... You must make a large investment both in time and money but the good news is that currently honey prices and pollination rates are at all time highs so the potential is there but so is the risk.


 The risk are scary. honey and pollination seem to be at an all time high while bees seem to be at their worst. Someone kindly gave me a spreadsheet, so hopefully that will help me start gaining some perspective. It is the risk and seriousness of the risk with conversations like these. It was something I thought was reasonable to put some serious thought into, in more concrete terms. 

I do understand that diseases and only a slight room for error can leave oneself in a pickle. Finding customer base, another story. Keeping things working, and having all this equipment really adds up. Having the knowledge and experience it takes to understand what to do and when, in challenging situations. 

So when I think about things to do, I wonder what it takes, an outside perspective. I figured the internet would be a good place to toss around an idea. 

I appreciate your input, and value all that I have received so far.


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## GuyDurden

Ok, so I obviously need to clarify some things. This thread has gotten out of hand! opcorn:

I did not anticipate such a response, nor the amount of controversy. I did not mean to upset anyone by posting in here, or haphazardly titling my post. Just was not sure where else it would fit. 

Ok, so really what I am doing, is tossing around an idea. It is not reasonable (and I knew that) to become a "commercial" beekeeper in a short period of time. What I _am_ curious about, it what happens when I do want to take the plunge. What I was really curious about, was what is the point you actually become "commercial" and what that means, as far as lifestyle change, basic practices, opportunities, problems, whatever. This thread was intended to be a think tank if you will for people who have done it, and people who want to do it. Splitting your way to 2000 hives from even 30-50 seems far fetched, I learned that, thanks! 

My general plan is as follows: expand next spring, expand through the summer if possible, expand the following year, etc until I get to a comfortable level. I was unsure about what happens, one day you are at 1,999 hives, and a sideliner, and one day you are at 2000 and commercial. What changed besides the extra hive? Is there something I should have been doing while becoming a serious sideliner that would help prepare me for the next step? Is the next step even something I can, and want to do? 

What kind of lifestyle, or income level, call it whatever, can you support with "brackets" of different numbers of hives? That seems important to me. As previously discussed, I was not the only one trying to aspire and come up with numbers about say, 200 hives. If this could support a decent lifestyle, paying for food, clothes, the basics, I would like to know my thinking was correct in thinking so. 

So no, I do not want to become an overnight commercial beek. Honestly, it doesn't seem feasible for at least another 16 years in my particular life situation anyway. But I like to fantasize about where I will be in 2, 5, 10, 50 years, if alive! I would hate to put the next decade of my life into setting myself up to be a hardcore sideliner and find out when I would like to set myself up to grow further to find out I was missing something major the whole time, that I had to start doing from the beginning. 

Realistically, where should I be, working hard, educating myself, learning from mistakes I and others make, in 2, 5, 10, and 20 years? That's really all. Commercial sounds great, at least in number of hives, but it doesn't sound great in terms of at that point one is really employing others and becoming a numbers cruncher. If my health permitted, 1000 hives ran by my family and I sounds great. 2000 if even possible. 

All I was really trying to do was toy with an idea, gain perspective, and get a dose of realism from experienced people. I know now, I at least am not the only one that was thinking like I was. 

So while commercial is not out the window, let's focus on what kind of sideliner it takes to get there, if they so choose. 200 hives managed very well? 300? 500? I understand I'm not going to get pages of trade secrets, and I'm not looking for them. I am looking for a reasonable discussion in a virtual context to plan a theoretical business venture. It is obviously a concept that is warranting much attention, from all sides, in like thinking individuals (regardless if they are "right" or not) and from experienced people. Experienced folk have said things they wished they would have done differently, things that need to be done, mentalities to adopt, etc. So at least this thread isn't a complete failure.

Perhaps I should have labeled it "I _think_ I want to be a commercial beek" or something more appropriate. I should have elaborated more, and spent more time explaining myself. But hey, conversation got started, people got excited, and I have already learned much about the business aspect of the business. Let's keep it up!


----------



## Ian

its just something that happens

what you have to decide is where you would like it to stop, because it never ends once you get things going. 
The entire way your looking at "going commercial" is flawed. Its not about how many hives,


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## Sadler91

MNbees said:


> First you need to be: trucker, mechanic, plumber, electrician, carpenter, machine operator, and most of all, crazy!!


Got that right!


----------



## GuyDurden

Ian said:


> its just something that happens
> 
> what you have to decide is where you would like it to stop, because it never ends once you get things going.
> The entire way your looking at "going commercial" is flawed. Its not about how many hives,



If you are thinking about maintaining a life, feeding yourself and family, numbers make it easy to work with. Besides, how is it any different than all the numbers and statistics commercial guys look at it anyway. This thread is begging the very question of what it means to be commercial anyway. If I could make a decent living off two hives, I would still want 20. This seems to be all about numbers, how is this flawed then? You want to be a professional beekeeper? You have to look at numbers (and many other things), whether the numbers add up to hobbyist, sideliner, or commercial all depends on the individual's goals and desires.

So in part, I agree, it's not 100% about how many hives, as it seems a horrible beekeeper could make less money off 2,000 hives than a great beek could off of 200 very well managed hives. Right?


----------



## snl

I don't any commercial beekeeper is going to give you gross income per hive.........


----------



## jbeshearse

sqkcrk said:


> Okay. Yes, you are wrong. I am a commercial beekeeper at 500 hives. My livelihood and family is supported by beekeeping. I manage all of my hives.
> 
> A friend of mine owns 3500 colonies and has employees, yet he works hives almost literally every day. He doesn't manipulate combs in every hive, but he works the yards right along w/ his employees and his wife who works hand in hand w/ him. He has employees who work in the honey house extracting and bottling and distributing.
> 
> David Hackenberg and Davey Jr work their hives, thousands, maybe you've seen them in some of the many movies these last cpl of years moving bees to pollination.


Mark, 

at the end of the year when you look back and consider the many aspects of a commercial (or hobby or sideliner) operation you can determine how much time you have spent on each element. If you look at the incomplete list below (and feel free to add to it), I can't believe that someone with 1000+ haves spends more time in the field tending bees than he does on all the other aspects combined. (nor the guy with 500 either). Maybe I am wrong, or maybe we all tend to overestimate the things we like and underestimate those that we don't. I still have to believe that as your hive counts increase the percentage of your overall beekeeping related time spent "not tending bees" consumes an ever greater time than does actual bee tending. I do not mean that commercial guys don't keep bees. But you are defined by that activity that you spend the most time doing. So are commercial guys spending the majority of their time tending bees or managing their business.

And believe me, I have the greatest respect for anyone that makes a living on bees. I hope to one day be where you are with about 500 hives. Just enough to manage myself an transport. But then I may end up happy with 50 hives, only time and experience will tell.

What I am really trying (poorly) to highlight is that a commercial operation encompasses so much more than hobby or sideline, that there is just no way of knowing unless you are there or work closely with the owner of a large operation. With any small business, it is a 24 hour a day job. Always something to use up your time. A commercial operation is just that, it becomes more about insuring you have adequate income, than it is about just tending bees.

It would be interesting to me to know how much different people spend on the aspects below and how many hives are in their operation

Cheers.



Procurement/Purchasing (all aspects)

Equipment assembly

Finding/securing apiary sites

Equipment/hive transportation

Apiary management (mowing/cleaning/ constructing)

Colony management (inspecting/feeding/medicating/adjusting)

Growing bees (splitting/queen rearing)

Managing Honey (harvesting/extracting/bulk storing)

Preparing honey for sale – retail (Bottling/labeling)

Selling honey retail (includes travel to/from and markets)

Selling honey wholesale (includes travel to/from buyers/loading/unloading/scheduling/negotiating)

Pollination (includes negotiating/arranging transport, etc)

Managing people(hiring/firing/payroll/workers comp/insurance/etc)

Managing finances(securing loans/paying bills/filing taxes/insurance/etc)

Mentoring others


----------



## jbeshearse

GuyDurden said:


> So in part, I agree, it's not 100% about how many hives, as it seems a horrible beekeeper could make less money off 2,000 hives than a great beek could off of 200 very well managed hives. Right?


One of the best articles I encountered was where a guy cut back from 100+ hives to 65, because he could manage them better and end up with a greater net income off 65 hives than he could with 100+


----------



## WLC

While I think that you only need to run 1 type of beekeeping operation very well and make a good living at it to be considered commercial, many will say that you need to run multiple operations at the same time to be profitable.

I would use total assets as a guide. Once you break $200,000 in assets, you're commercial.


----------



## sqkcrk

jbeshearse said:


> Mark,
> 
> at the end of the year when you look back and consider the many aspects of a commercial (or hobby or sideliner) operation you can determine how much time you have spent on each element. If you look at the incomplete list below (and feel free to add to it), I can't believe that someone with 1000+ haves spends more time in the field tending bees than he does on all the other aspects combined. (nor the guy with 500 either). Maybe I am wrong, or maybe we all tend to overestimate the things we like and underestimate those that we don't. I still have to believe that as your hive counts increase the percentage of your overall beekeeping related time spent "not tending bees" consumes an ever greater time than does actual bee tending. I do not mean that commercial guys don't keep bees. But you are defined by that activity that you spend the most time doing. So are commercial guys spending the majority of their time tending bees or managing their business.
> 
> And believe me, I have the greatest respect for anyone that makes a living on bees. I hope to one day be where you are with about 500 hives. Just enough to manage myself an transport. But then I may end up happy with 50 hives, only time and experience will tell.
> 
> What I am really trying (poorly) to highlight is that a commercial operation encompasses so much more than hobby or sideline, that there is just no way of knowing unless you are there or work closely with the owner of a large operation. With any small business, it is a 24 hour a day job. Always something to use up your time. A commercial operation is just that, it becomes more about insuring you have adequate income, than it is about just tending bees.
> 
> It would be interesting to me to know how much different people spend on the aspects below and how many hives are in their operation
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> 
> 
> Procurement/Purchasing (all aspects)
> 
> Equipment assembly
> 
> Finding/securing apiary sites
> 
> Equipment/hive transportation
> 
> Apiary management (mowing/cleaning/ constructing)
> 
> Colony management (inspecting/feeding/medicating/adjusting)
> 
> Growing bees (splitting/queen rearing)
> 
> Managing Honey (harvesting/extracting/bulk storing)
> 
> Preparing honey for sale – retail (Bottling/labeling)
> 
> Selling honey retail (includes travel to/from and markets)
> 
> Selling honey wholesale (includes travel to/from buyers/loading/unloading/scheduling/negotiating)
> 
> Pollination (includes negotiating/arranging transport, etc)
> 
> Managing people(hiring/firing/payroll/workers comp/insurance/etc)
> 
> Managing finances(securing loans/paying bills/filing taxes/insurance/etc)
> 
> Mentoring others


Job number one is keeping the hives alive and productive. Unless you have someone who is invested in that as much as the one who owns the business are you going to put your livelihood in someone elses hands?

It still comes down to what I have written before. Do what you do best and pay for the rest. The commercial beekeepers are good at many aspects of the business of beekeeping, well rounded in all of the things someone listed a cpl of Posts before the one I am replying to now. I could list the names of the most successful commercial beekeepers I know. All of them have their eyes and hands in their beehives equally or more so than any of the workers they have working for them.

I don't know all the commercial beekeepers that there are but I know enough of them and have read about enougfh of them to be willing to wager that it is not an exageration to say that commercial beekeeper work their bees themselves.

Maybe the Adees don't. Maybe Andy Card spends less time in his hives than he does on other things but his sons are in the bees. Maybe Dave Mendes doesn't work his own bees as much as David and Davey Jr Hackenberg do. I don't know.

I guess to really know one would have to do what beekeepers w/ thousands do.


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> Once you break $200,000 in assets, you're commercial.


Where did you get that number from? Where did you pull it out from?

Let's not get into this argument again. What the definition of Commercial Beekeeper is. If you are a commercial beekeeper you know it.


----------



## jbeshearse

I agree pretty much with everything you said Mark, especially the "do what you do best and pay for the rest". I am sure that commercial guys and gals work their bees. But I am just as sure that they spend lots and lots of time managing all the other aspects of their business. Or they won't have one for long.


----------



## WLC

sqkcrk:

Where did I get that number? The 20% rule. That's the amount of profit ($40K) you should be able to get for that amount ($200K) of total assets.

I would call a beekeeper who only buys nucs, then feeds, buys new queens, treats, and then sells double the number of nucs that they originally purchased, commercial.

You don't need to be a jack of all trades.


----------



## sqkcrk

Okay WLC. If u say so. We know what you are best at.

I guess what you are saying is that the guy w/ 2000 hives who doesn't make a profit isn't a commercial beekeeper. I really don't want to get into this quagmire.


----------



## WLC

Ditto.

The OP was interested in nucs. I don't think that 'The Full Monty' was the intent of the post.


----------



## GuyDurden

jbeshearse said:


> Mark,
> 
> at the end of the year when you look back and consider the many aspects of a commercial (or hobby or sideliner) operation you can determine how much time you have spent on each element. If you look at the incomplete list below (and feel free to add to it), I can't believe that someone with 1000+ ......
> 
> ......of your overall beekeeping related time spent "not tending bees" consumes an ever greater time than does actual bee tending. I do not mean that commercial guys don't keep bees. But you are defined by that activity that you spend the most time doing. So are commercial guys spending the majority of their time tending bees or managing their business.
> 
> And believe me, I have the greatest respect for anyone that makes a living on bees. I hope to one day be where you are with about 500 hives. Just enough to manage myself an transport. But then I may end up happy with 50 hives, only time and experience will tell.
> 
> What I am really trying (poorly) to highlight is that a commercial operation encompasses so much more than hobby or sideline, that there is just no way of knowing unless you are there or work closely with the owner of a large operation. With any small business, it is a 24 hour a day job. Always something to use up your time. A commercial operation is just that, it becomes more about insuring you have adequate income, than it is about just tending bees.
> 
> It would be interesting to me to know how much different people spend on the aspects below and how many hives are in their operation
> 
> Cheers.
> 
> 
> 
> Mentoring others


+1, thanks!



jbeshearse said:


> One of the best articles I encountered was where a guy cut back from 100+ hives to 65, because he could manage them better and end up with a greater net income off 65 hives than he could with 100+


Interesting, thanks, kinda what I was getting at.


----------



## GuyDurden

WLC said:


> Ditto.
> 
> The OP was interested in nucs. I don't think that 'The Full Monty' was the intent of the post.


Pretty much. Can one not be a commercial beekeeper by just providing bulk of a service/good? So when people are lining up at brushy mountain, or really any major supplier, that is not making their own packages (idk what brushy mountain does, just an example) who pretty much just resells them, the guy that makes those bulk packages and nucs is indeed commercial in my eyes (my young, naive eyes) if he is suppling a major section of the market with a good or service. Doesn't mean, in my opinion, that one would have to pollinate, artificially inseminate, provide nucs, packages, make hives etc etc to be a commercial beek. What if someone just wanted to raise quality bees and queens for everyone to enjoy? who is reliable, trusted, and knows he has agreements to sell everything he is able to produce, even if it means marking down for a "Bulk discount" That seems commercial to me. If pollination helps him get there (earlier, perhaps) so be it. 

You said my idea better than I could articulate. Thanks!


----------



## jim lyon

I'm not familiar with the 20% rule but I will go ahead and weigh in on the definition as I see it. Commercial is more a perspective than a given number of hives...or assets. If deriving income from your bees is a big part of your livelihood regardless of whether it is 25% or 100% then, to me, you are commercial. Are you dependent on that income to make the health insurance or the mortgage payment, do you file a schedule F and carefully record all income and expenses? Answer yes to all the above and your a commercial beekeeper in my book. Is the commercial forum just for commercials? No, of course not, all are free to ask and learn, and all are free to discuss beekeeping from a business perspective. 
On the issue of how much time one is able to devote to actual beekeeping once you have 1,000 or more hives it kind of depends on the operator. I have found it a bit easier to get bogged down in details and office work as our business has grown. I am fortunate to have a son who does much of the field management and two other hired men who carry much of the load as well but I am still quite engaged on a day to day basis with what is going on and I would guess on a yearly basis at least 75% of my business hours are spent either in the bee yard or the extracting room.


----------



## Markt

Going from a hobbyist to a sideliner first you'll learn how to keep bees (Which hopefully you already know) and then to break into being a sideliner you'll have to learn to keep bees efficiently. That means figuring out what hive manipulations are important as opposed to which ones are too time consuming to be bothered with (Do I save that drone layer or knock it out on the ground and throw the hive on the truck? Do I drive all the way out to that yard to super a single hive?(Probably should have got that one with the last round of supering or done some equalizing)). With a good knowledge of beekeeping anyone can keep ten hives alive indefinitely, it's when the days start seeming too short to get everything done that you really start to figure out what you're into. I'd try some number between 50 and 100 next year if I were you, that'll give you a bit of an idea what I'm talking about. If it works out, double again and try that. I should mention you won't make much honey off of those if you turn 15-20 nucs and a few hives into 50-100 (Like maybe a barrel) but it can be done, you'll even get to buy your very own tote of sugar out of the deal. Just my two cents, best of luck


----------



## BeeCurious

I believe Beesource needs a "Thinking Out Loud" forum. 

A "making up rules" and a "pulling numbers out of one's ***" forum would apparently be active as well.


----------



## Flyer Jim

BeeCurious said:


> I believe Beesource needs a "Thinking Out Loud" forum.
> 
> A "making up rules" and a "pulling numbers out of one's ***" forum would apparently be active as well.


Where is that "like" button when you need it ?:thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## sqkcrk

mnbeekeeper said:


> and then there is wants of toys and vacations.


"vacations"? What's that?


----------



## jim lyon

sqkcrk said:


> "vacations"? What's that?


Its what you do in the winter and early spring in places like east Texas and South Carolina. Warm weather, sunshine, bar-b-que and the best part is its all deductible.


----------



## mnbeekeeper

jim lyon said:


> Its what you do in the winter and early spring in places like east Texas and South Carolina. Warm weather, sunshine, bar-b-que and the best part is its all deductible.


very true i do quite enjoy going south for the spring. they can be real nasty in MN. also it depends on how you defy vacation. i would never take a 3000k cruiz on a ship. but last weekend over the 4 th spent it at a nice little family cabin. cheap and i didnt feel guilty the bees are makin honey and i just gotta wait to start taking it.

i feel lucky to be a beekeeper but even more so that i live in MN because i think it would be really boring living out in middle of no where SD ND Montana Nebraska or anywhere in CANADA!!!!!!


----------



## sqkcrk

jim lyon said:


> Its what you do in the winter and early spring in places like east Texas and South Carolina. Warm weather, sunshine, bar-b-que and the best part is its all deductible.


Oh, you mean those little things and short times when one does something different than one does when at home w/ the family?


----------



## Ian

jim lyon said:


> Commercial is more a perspective than a given number of hives...or assets. If deriving income from your bees is a big part of your livelihood regardless of whether it is 25% or 100% then, to me, you are commercial.


exactly, 

we farm 3000 acres, calve 400 cows and manage 1000 hives, 
Honey income is just a portion of the total farm income we bring in every year but a significant amount none the less. I would not consider my self a sideline beekeeper

that is if it really matters how I would be classified as a beekeeper anyway


----------



## Ian

GuyDurden said:


> This thread is begging the very question of what it means to be commercial anyway. If I could make a decent living off two hives, I would still want 20. This seems to be all about numbers, how is this flawed then?


no, those are not the right kind of numbers that need to be focused on. The number of hives is completely relevant to your operational budgets but the only thing number of hives has to do with other beekeepers is bragging rights in the coffee shop


----------



## WLC

"I believe Beesource needs a "Thinking Out Loud" forum. 
A "making up rules" and a "pulling numbers out of one's ***" forum would apparently be active as well."

Having managed a business for well over a decade, as well as investments, I'd say...

You do need assets to make a profit. I think that $40k income and $200k in assets is a lower limit on 'commercial' status.

Below that, you're likely a sideliner or hobbyist.

No, you don't have to run every single possible type of beekeeping operation simultaneously to be 'commercial'.


----------



## sqkcrk

R u refering to personal income?

Sitting here thinking about my assets I don't think I have $200,000.00 in assets. $60,000.00 in property(land, house, barn and building), $50,000.00 in live hives (500 hives at $100.00 each), $2,000.00 Bobcat, $5,000.00(?) 2005 F-450, $500.00 13 year old Flatbed Trailer, $4,000.00 jars and caps, $300.00 Bottling Equipment, $500.00 in 100 nuc boxes, etc., etc.. What am I forgetting?

Haven't yet cleared $40,000.00 in personal income. Really not my goal.

Huh. Maybe I am a sideliner.


----------



## WLC

Yes, $40k in personal income would be a minimum. $200k in total assets at any point in time for the whole operation.

It would take years for someone starting with a dozen hives to reach that point.


----------



## jim lyon

sqkcrk said:


> R u refering to personal income?
> 
> Sitting here thinking about my assets I don't think I have $200,000.00 in assets. $60,000.00 in property(land, house, barn and building), $50,000.00 in live hives (500 hives at $100.00 each), $2,000.00 Bobcat, $5,000.00(?) 2005 F-450, $500.00 13 year old Flatbed Trailer, $4,000.00 jars and caps, $300.00 Bottling Equipment, $500.00 in 100 nuc boxes, etc., etc.. What am I forgetting?
> .


The ever elusive "blue sky" number. A productive "turnkey" operation with good locations and a history is always worth a bit extra.


----------



## sqkcrk

I'm sure that is true Jim. But how does one put a number on that? What is the value one would ascribe to ones apiaries. It's not like they belong to the beekeeper. They belong to the landowner.

And you probably noticed that I didn't include Pollination in my list of assets. I have no ownership of the pollination agreements I am involved in. So, I don't really se them as true assets. Something I can sell to a Buyer of Squeak Creek Apiaries.

Would a Lending Agency see Bee Yards and Pollination Agreements (not actual written contracts) as Assets?


----------



## jim lyon

You can only value it to the extent that you are willing to share your past production records with a prospective buyer. Locations? You can sell a face to face introduction and a no compete clause and those things do have a value.


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## WLC

sqkcrk:

No lowballing or hiding revenues/assets allowed. 

You're there alright.


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## sqkcrk

Lowballing? Are you willing to give me more for my Bobcat or truck?  Real useful in The City. lol


----------



## WLC

I hope you're doing OK this year. No nuc, honey, queen sales...
No pollination money. Hives worth only $100 apiece.

Maybe you should talk to someone at social services? 

It's possible that you've had a disasterous year, so I won't press the issue.

It's funny that you mentioned a BobCat. I had a conversation with the operator who was planting street trees with a special attachment not too long ago.

Yesterday, I watched all of 5 minutes as a big backhoe dug out a trench for a new water main.

There's an equipment rental place just a few blocks from me. You can get a bobcat, or any type of loader that you need.

Plenty of equipment to be found in the big city. If I want palettes, I can get as many as I want for free.


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## hpm08161947

Perhaps I am wrong, but I would think those pollination contracts would have some serious value. Imagine you sold out and the new owner shows up at Sam's..... well... I would guess Sam would try him for at least one year. Maybe the Apple guys don't do it that way... So you would take $2000 for that bobcat? Hmmm


----------



## sqkcrk

I didn't say I didn't have any pollination income, just that I don't see how I can list that as an Asset, something I could sell.

There have been times I have considered talking to someone at Social Services about SNAP, but we got by. Have relied on SS for Son's Health Insurance.

I put value of hives at $100.00 because if I was selling them there aren't people out there knocking down door to pay more. Not for 500 at once.

What valuation would you put on a two story or story and a half hive, some w/ two shallows of honey on them? What about after the honey comes off?


----------



## WLC

Mark:

What's a single deep worth? Well, since you can buy mated queens, and make nucs/splits out of em...

I think that you've left out some woodenware with drawn comb as well...

Hives are worth more than $100.

No honey house? Hmmm.


----------



## jim lyon

If the bees are strong even if the equipment isn't the best you have got to be $50 low at $100 without factoring the crop in. Bees don't drop off in value in the fall to the extent they used to. The almonds changed that.


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> Mark:
> 
> What's a single deep worth? Well, since you can buy mated queens, and make nucs/splits out of em...
> 
> I think that you've left out some woodenware with drawn comb as well...
> 
> Hives are worth more than $100.
> 
> No honey house? Hmmm.


Nope, no Honey House. There's a building, but no extracting plant. I mentioned the house the barn, and the building. Local property assesment values the property at $60,000.00. No, I don't think so. I listed the honey supers I have and what they may be worth.

What's a single deep worth? Just like anything. What you can get for it. Can I get $10.00 for a deep super and 10 combs? $20.00?

I don't see how you can count what I can do w/ what I have as assets, such as making nucs/splits by buying queens. That's potential, not actual.


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## sqkcrk

How about you two, Jim Lyon and WLC putting value on my list of assets? Any questions about condition I will answer as best I can.


----------



## WLC

Anything in NC on the reservation?


----------



## sqkcrk

Huh? What reservation in NC are you refering to?

Oh, yeah, I forgot to list my 2010 Ford Transit Connect Delivery Van w/ 68,000 miles on it. What's that worth? $8,000.00?


----------



## WLC

sqkcrk:

Fuggedaboudit. 

My point is still that it takes some substantial assets to make a living at beekeeping, let alone be considered 'commercial'.


----------



## sqkcrk

Guy,
Tina2Bees wants you in North Dakota for 8 weeks. Check the Employment Forum.


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> sqkcrk:
> 
> Fuggedaboudit.
> 
> My point is still that it takes some substantial assets to make a living at beekeeping, let alone be considered 'commercial'.


You can be so irritatingly cryptic at times.


----------



## jim lyon

If you have a strong double on a clean 4 way in SC in January they should easily bring $180+. Get yourself a Hawaiian queen, split them into singles and you might get $150, you could have this past year anyway. A good box of comb should bring $15. You sound like a man thinking about selling. Sure seems like there are a lot folks right here on Beesource looking for just what you have, of course having the money is quite another thing. Bankers don't like to loan on bee hives.  No titles and who knows where they might be.


----------



## jim lyon

WLC said:


> sqkcrk:
> 
> Fuggedaboudit.
> 
> My point is still that it takes some substantial assets to make a living at beekeeping, let alone be considered 'commercial'.


Actually it dosent. I know of one very large queen producer whose assets are mostly blue sky and he has made himself a wealthy man because he dependably raises lots of queens each year. Even Mark could easily net in one year more than his total beekeeping assets.


----------



## WLC

At some point in time, the queens are assets as well.


----------



## jim lyon

WLC said:


> At some point in time, the queens are assets as well.


Yes! That's the point! Queens are $20+. Honey is $2.25 (considerably more if marketed locally) and almond pollination is $150. Mark is valuing his hives at $100. You do the math.


----------



## WLC

OK, I'll bite.

How does he produce queens, and make a living wage with 'blue sky' assets?

By the way, cash is an asset as well, so if he's some kind of middle man...


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> At some point in time, the queens are assets as well.


Tell that to an accountant or a bank and see what you get. You can't get insurance on them.


----------



## jim lyon

WLC said:


> OK, I'll bite.
> 
> How does he produce queens, and make a living wage with 'blue sky' assets?
> 
> By the way, cash is an asset as well, so if he's some kind of middle man...


no, I'm not saying he has no assets just that they are a small fraction of his annual net. Some hives, some equipment some trucks but a lot of knowhow, and good customers. he even rents his buildings. .


----------



## BeeCurious

WLC said:


> snip
> 
> We've got a grant in for 2 medium hives,


WLC, 

How many hives are in your care now?


----------



## WLC

Beecurious:

If recently installed 2 BeeWeaver hives.

One just got a new queen. The other is in 3 deeps, with 6 supers on (I'll get to number 7 shortly), and it's building up rather well. It's based on Tim Ives' method.

But, you're asking the wrong question.

It's 'How much are you worth'?

Enough to start a new business, should I choose to do so upon retirement.


----------



## hpm08161947

jim lyon said:


> no, I'm not saying he has no assets just that they are a small fraction of his annual net. Some hives, some equipment some trucks but a lot of knowhow, and good customers. he even rents his buildings. .


Wonder what his genetics would bring at auction. I seem to remember hearing about some pretty hefty figures for Sue Cobey's stock sold at auction a few years ago.


----------



## BeeCurious

WLC said:


> But, you're asking the wrong question


No, my question was not "wrong". Just curious to know how you acquired your bee-biz savvy...


----------



## WLC

Beecurious:

Of course I'm right.

By managing an actual business, and making money. It's been not quite 20 years.

Business, is business, even if it's Beezness.

What did I accomplish with a few Honeybee colonies?

Do you mean the 3/4 million $ Lab Renovation Grant?

Alot of people have benefitted because of what those Honeybees inspired in me, and others.

Try thinking outside of the box.

You can do more than just 'sell bees'.


----------



## WLC

As Jim pointed out, there are other niches in beekeeping where one can make money, without being an actual commercial beekeeper.

If someone can find a way to buy and then resell queens at a markup, without physical assets, then more power to em.

But, since the op wants to be a commercial beekeeper, he's got alot of building to do before he can make a living wage from it.


----------



## sqkcrk

What do you think we have been telling him?


----------



## sqkcrk

Personally I think he is looking at it the wrong way. He should figure out what he wants from life and then see if beekeeping can help make it true.


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## WLC

Yes, I know.

However, without any indication of how much he's going to have to put together to make it work.

It could take well over 10 years to get to a commercial level if starting with next to nothing.

With a target amount, at least he could get an idea of what kind of a bankroll he would need to raise to get there more quickly.

Maybe another job?


----------



## sqkcrk

Considering he appears to have no assets, yes, it will take years to get his numbers up.

Another job? Does he have a job now? Or is he doing some work for his girl friend now and then?

He's a kept man, seems to me.


----------



## BeeCurious

sqkcrk said:


> Considering he appears to have no assets, yes, it will take years to get his numbers up.
> 
> Another job? Does he have a job now? Or is he doing some work for his girl friend now and then?
> 
> He's a kept man, seems to me.


A " 16 acre hobby farm, with a brook running through the middle" seems to suggest that some funds may be available.....


----------



## WLC

He's 25, does 'a little bit of this, and a little bit of that' which suggests to me he has some skills.

He's in NC.

Well, I suppose that he can start by getting some part time work with a local beekeeper. He can learn alot by observing and doing.

He might want to contact the local ag extension office to see if there are any incentives for new beekeepers.

Maybe there's a beekeeping course at the local community college.

He's in a local bee club.

He's in a good beekeeping state. Which is a plus.

It's possible.


----------



## sqkcrk

Navy benefits? I wouldn't want to try to start anything in his shoes. But I guess he has to do something. I wish him all the luck and hard knocks I had. Education is expensive and we all pay for it one way or another.


----------



## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> He's 25, does 'a little bit of this, and a little bit of that' which suggests to me he has some skills.
> 
> He's in NC.
> 
> .


He lives right in the middle (1 hour drive either way) between two of NC's most successful commercial beekeepers.... both very approachable guys. This is one of his big assets... if he will use it.


----------



## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> He's 25, does 'a little bit of this, and a little bit of that' which suggests to me he has some skills.
> 
> He's in NC.
> 
> Well, I suppose that he can start by getting some part time work with a local beekeeper. He can learn alot by observing and doing.
> 
> He might want to contact the local ag extension office to see if there are any incentives for new beekeepers.
> 
> Maybe there's a beekeeping course at the local community college.
> 
> He should join a local bee club.
> 
> He's in a good beekeeping state. Which is a plus.
> 
> It's possible.


He is already doing some of the things you suggest. The rest have been suggested to him. W/ names and all. I even told him of a ND beekeeper looking for help.

Knowing now what I didn't know when I was 25 I know he doesn't know what he is saying when he says he wants to be a commercial beekeeper. He doesn't know what a commercial beekeeper is. Not really. He has to get out of his own neighborhood.


----------



## EastSideBuzz

GuyDurden said:


> Ok, so I obviously need to clarify some things. This thread has gotten out of hand! opcorn:


Ya think? 



jim lyon said:


> I If deriving income from your bees is a big part of your livelihood regardless of whether it is 25% or 100% then, to me, you are commercial. Are you dependent on that income to make the health insurance or the mortgage payment, do you file a schedule F and carefully record all income and expenses? Answer yes to all the above and your a commercial beekeeper in my book.


I guess I will be a sideliner for awhile. 300 hives only give me going out to dinner money kids allowance money. I do plan on this being something to do in retirement instead of playing golf. Not sure if that is 5 or 10 years out.



jim lyon said:


> If the bees are strong even if the equipment isn't the best you have got to be $50 low at $100 without factoring the crop in. Bees don't drop off in value in the fall to the extent they used to. The almonds changed that.


Montana has changed that. You own the registered locations so there is a value. Otherwise you have bee's and have to find something to do with them. No one keeps 300 bee's for the fun of it. Need honey to sell or give away. Need pollination to help pay for the feed or it is the feed. There is no value in a farmers handshake location to keep the bee's.


----------



## snl

The trick in life is finding out what you LOVE to do THEN figuring out a way to make money doing it!


----------



## WLC

hpm:

If you would pm him to point him in the right direction.

After rereading the beginning of the thread, I'd say that he has the motive, the dicipline, enough background, and the right location to make a go of it.


----------



## sqkcrk

Then you should have seen Herb's recommendation and Guy's reaction.


----------



## hpm08161947

The biggest problem he seems to have is that he is "Immobile". Mobility would seem to be a number one requirement for a Commercial Beekeeper. He is 25 and already tied down.... alas.


----------



## WLC

But, you did mention that he's in between two major operations. Maybe he can tend to the home yards while the boss is out pollinating?

There's probably some peripheral or niche function he can fit into while building up his own business. 

He's going to have to get licenses and certifications anyhow. So, he can use that time for the courses and training he needs.


----------



## sqkcrk

He has a son to tend to 4 days a week.


----------



## WLC

Still just two. Although I've had more with some splits.

No Barry, respect my privacy.

Thanks.


----------



## jim lyon

WLC said:


> As Jim pointed out, there are other niches in beekeeping where one can make money, without being an actual commercial beekeeper.


I said that?


----------



## sqkcrk

I think Guy should start another Thread. This one is worn out. Titled "I thought I would like to be a Commercial Beekeeper".


----------



## Birdman

Guy, bailed on post 99.


----------



## sqkcrk

All dreamed out?


----------



## jim lyon

D


WLC said:


> Jim:
> 
> Remember the 'blue sky' fella?
> 
> .


"Blue Sky fella" is a commercial beekeeper by anyone's definition. Certainly one of the most successful ones that I know.


----------



## WLC

I was left with the impression that he didn't have alot of physical assets.


----------



## Jed

sqkcrk said:


> I think Guy should start another Thread. This one is worn out. Titled "I thought I would like to be a Commercial Beekeeper".


lol thats bout right


----------



## ryan

Hello Guy. Hope you're still reading this thread. 

The lowest investment, quickest return on investment, and most reliable market is Queens and queen cells. A few hundred hives can generate a lot of income. Queens are also a way to keep bees and not be mobile. 

Spending a month or 2 over the next 2 springs with a experienced beekeeper should be enough to give you what you need know....at least enough to get started. That's pretty low investment of time also.

Queens are all about you and your work. Not how much you own.
Good luck

ryan


----------



## sqkcrk

I heard once about how Randy Oliver sold half of his combs every year by selling half of his hives. Maybe as nucs, I forget. This was on 400 hives. He then split the remainder and was bck to his 400 hives. Seemed like a good idea to me.

Yes Ryan. Seems like a good idea to me.


----------



## GuyDurden

Markt said:


> Going from a hobbyist to a sideliner first you'll learn how to keep bees (Which hopefully you already know) and then to break into being a sideliner you'll have to learn to keep bees efficiently. .....
> 
> ..... I'd try some number between 50 and 100 next year if I were you, that'll give you a bit of an idea what I'm talking about. If it works out, double again and try that. I should mention you won't make much honey off of those if you turn 15-20 nucs and a few hives into 50-100 (Like maybe a barrel) but it can be done, you'll even get to buy your very own tote of sugar out of the deal. Just my two cents, best of luck


I figured I would try and go with around 25-40 hives next year. Maybe only 25, and focus on splitting and queens. I have been reading some books that make me think that this is the best option for me at this moment. I'm just figuring out the logistics at the moment, and going to spend the winter reading, reading, reading. Thanks!



sqkcrk said:


> Personally I think he is looking at it the wrong way. He should figure out what he wants from life and then see if beekeeping can help make it true.


That is pretty much what I am doing, I have a general idea what I want, and I'm trying to see what the the work thats being cut out for me will look like. But wise statement regardless.



sqkcrk said:


> Navy benefits? I wouldn't want to try to start anything in his shoes. But I guess he has to do something. I wish him all the luck and hard knocks I had. Education is expensive and we all pay for it one way or another.


Navy benefits leave me covering the bills, and paying for my formal schooling, with a bit extra. Just quit a job because it was interfering with my school, and childcare (loooong story) and I make more going to school so why not do that instead of being stuck at minimum wage and 15 hours a week? It was costing me more in childcare and gas alone than I was making. Now I can focus on school and use my other incomes to build up, also the free time I will have to research this particular venture and literally build hives and such.



hpm08161947 said:


> He lives right in the middle (1 hour drive either way) between two of NC's most successful commercial beekeepers.... both very approachable guys. This is one of his big assets... if he will use it.


I am looking into it. It was a great suggestion, I didn't mean to seem like I have been blowing it off. I kinda just started skimming once all the hostilities broke out. 



snl said:


> The trick in life is finding out what you LOVE to do THEN figuring out a way to make money doing it!


+1. Do what you love, and the money will come. Has worked for me so far, just seems to be getting a bit harder each time as what I want become more expensive 



hpm08161947 said:


> The biggest problem he seems to have is that he is "Immobile". Mobility would seem to be a number one requirement for a Commercial Beekeeper. He is 25 and already tied down.... alas.


True, true. I give you that. Part of the reason I cannot take the ND job, or I would. I am hoping in 16 years (or less, depending on how the relationship with the mother stabilizes) will open more doors, and hope to be set up by then, and that's what I'm looking into now, by reading, talking to people, and starting controversial threads, apparently.



ryan said:


> Hello Guy. Hope you're still reading this thread.
> 
> The lowest investment, quickest return on investment, and most reliable market is Queens and queen cells. A few hundred hives can generate a lot of income. Queens are also a way to keep bees and not be mobile.
> 
> Spending a month or 2 over the next 2 springs with a experienced beekeeper should be enough to give you what you need know....at least enough to get started. That's pretty low investment of time also.
> 
> Queens are all about you and your work. Not how much you own.
> Good luck
> 
> ryan


I have been leaning towards that for the last few weeks, and since my books came in the mail, and really cleared out some of the fuzzy areas for me, I intend to focus on that in the coming spring, and only building my own apiary with splits and stuff, developing a positive relationship with the inspector, learning from her, and learning from others as well.


----------



## red

I'm getting on here late and don't have time to reed all the post so some of this could have been covered. Do to the topic I wanted to chime in about my last two day's of trying to become a sideliner. I left my house Wednesday morning for work at 4 am. I got home from work at 3:30 pm. I then drove four more hours to load bees by hand. At 12:30 am I was strapping my load. At 3:30 am I was calling my wife to bring me some tools to work on my alternator and give me a jump start. At 7:30 am I was back on the road still three hours from my destination. At 12:30 pm I had my load empty and started pulling honey suppers. I did get an hour of sleep waiting on my wife though. My advise after this is, if you can't put in a couple of day's like these once in awhile you should look for a different profession as bee keeping doesn't wait until tomorrow.


----------



## hedges

Guy, what are the books you got for queen rearing, if you don't mind my asking? My county has a queen rearing initiative and I think it's a lot of fun. I have it in my head that raising my own queens (just to replace my own over the years) will be one of the more rewarding parts of beekeeping, but I'd love to know more about it.


----------



## GuyDurden

hedges said:


> Guy, what are the books you got for queen rearing, if you don't mind my asking? My county has a queen rearing initiative .... one of the more rewarding parts of beekeeping, but I'd love to know more about it.


Of course I don't mind, it also gives others the chance to give their opinion on the book and its applicability and credibility. 

G.M. Doolittle's "Scientific Queen Rearing", It was written in the mid-1800s or near, and is written in a tone like most books written in the victorian era. I also received Increase Essentials, but John Connor Lawrence. I only had a chance to skim two chapters, but I really like it so far. I think it will teach me quite a bit to build off. I also received "bee sex essentials" by Mr. Lawrence as well, but haven't cracked it much, I only showed a few pictures to my son who grabbed it and wanted to point out "bees daddy!" I like that it has glossy pages and colored (thought dated) photographs. To be honest, I kinda like the dated "style" photos. Rustic feel. 

My club mentioned a queen initiative, but I think I was the only one interested in it at the time, everyone thought it was a good idea, but haven't talked any more about doing something with the idea. We will get around to it, I hope to become involved.


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## BeeCurious

"Connor" is Larry's last name... Hopefully you will hear him speak about bees someday.


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## GuyDurden

BeeCurious said:


> "Connor" is Larry's last name... Hopefully you will hear him speak about bees someday.


:facepalm:

That would be nice, I like his style of writing. You know when you are reading a run down of something, and no matter how many times you've read or heard about it it doesn't seem to stick quite like you would like? His book(s) seem to fix that problem with me.


----------



## WLC

Guy:

Get your bankroll together, start building already. 

I think that you can do it.


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## GuyDurden

WLC said:


> Guy:
> 
> Get your bankroll together, start building already.
> 
> I think that you can do it.


Thanks man! 

Right now, I'm reading up as the summer semester winds down, figuring out what I have, what I need, and then developing a plan to get what I need. Looks like I need to learn some woodworking skills lol


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## sqkcrk

Accounting skills are more important than woodworking skills, imo. Take a Small Business Class or two. So you'll know what to do when you build your business.


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## WLC

If you haven't already done so, don't forget to apply for credit cards while you're still in school. 

Also, if you haven't already applied for a student loan, and you still have a few more years left for your degree, it might be a way to bootstrap your operation.


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## GuyDurden

sqkcrk said:


> Accounting skills are more important than woodworking skills, imo. Take a Small Business Class or two. So you'll know what to do when you build your business.


I've taken a few basic ones here and there, more than I care to. I know it is a very important aspect, and it is something I will have to get good at. Thanks.



WLC said:


> If you haven't already done so, don't forget to apply for credit cards while you're still in school.
> 
> Also, if you haven't already applied for a student loan, and you still have a few more years left for your degree, it might be a way to bootstrap your operation.


This sounds good in theory, but 2013 will be marked as the year I became 100% debt free. My school is paid for, I get scholarships that more than cover tuition, on top of tuition being paid for from the GI bill. So these are part of where the financing is coming from to fund this adventure. I would rather not get right back into the debt loop. If, in a few years, this is doing well, I _may_ look into getting loans and such, but I would really rather not unless necessary. I would rather live meagerly and own everything I own, instead of basically renting it from the bank. 

I have talked to a local carpenter, and we are going in on some wood. Well, I'm going to buy some wood, and he is going to make me however many hives and nuc boxes I need for next year as soon as I decide what wood to use. I also have a very nice beek going to use me for the remainder of the summer so I can learn to graft and raise queens, hands on. So hopefully by next spring I can at least supply myself with queens, or perhaps the following year depending on how well I take it up i suppose. I figured, I can earn good income, with the same investment, if I focus on this aspect too, as it will also be a needed skill throughout my involvement in the hobby. 

Now while I'm learning this, I'm trying to learn how many hives it would take to be capable of producing twenty (at least) mated queens a week. Doubt next year will be the year this happens for me, but we will see. He even offered some of his good queens for me so I'll have good stock to work with.


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## sqkcrk

Credit cards to maintain your credit rating.


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## GuyDurden

Oh, I was reading that like, "go get some loans man" :scratch: 

I have a few credit cards, as in two. I have one I have used quite a bit like a debit card, only to wait some time to repay it, to try and build credit. I have paid off 3 car loans over the last few years the same way. Im trying to build it! lol I don't really know how many I would need to get?


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## jim lyon

Credit cards when used properly are excellent business tools. I set them up to automatically deduct the full amount from my checking account each month and pocket the 1 to (in some cases) over 3% savings. Each hired man has a card with a set monthly spending limit and I receive a monthly itemization for spending by each card holder. These credit card reports can be set up to automatically load data into an accounting program like Quick Books.


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## GuyDurden

jim lyon said:


> Credit cards when used properly are excellent business tools. .... Each hired man has a card with a set monthly spending limit and I receive a monthly itemization for spending by each card holder. These credit card reports can be set up to automatically load data into an accounting program like Quick Books.


That's crazy, I didn't know you could upload the info like that. 

After re-reading his post, I still don't understand how I would use a student loan? I have never dealt with student loans, as there hasn't been a need in my (fortunate) situation. I was under the impression it was to help pay tuition, am I missing something?


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## WLC

You usually have to start repaying them as soon as you graduate.

However, they can be used for other things a well besides tuition.

Just ask them for $200k.


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## Specialkayme

WLC said:


> You usually have to start repaying them as soon as you graduate.


6 month grace period built in on all student loans.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> Just ask them for $200k.


Yeah, that is funny. But, when I was looking into going Commercial I wish I had started out w/ a $200,000.00 loan, so I could get a building up, have a decent truck, a trailer and a skidsteer loader. Extracting equipment and money for beehives. But who has that sort of collateral when starting out? Not me.


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## WLC

He's got a good story to tell the loan officer, and he can use the same reasons why he wants to get into commercial beekeeping.

He should tell them about that as well.

Look at it this way, if you get enough to buy everything you need ASAP, you can come through next spring with enough nucs to sell, and have what you need left over to do your queen thing.


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## hpm08161947

Is Wood Working a skill a commercial beekeeper needs? I never knew one that had these skills. Seems like it would take a lot of time away from the essentials. Buying hives might even be cheaper.


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## sqkcrk

WLC said:


> He's got a good story to tell the loan officer, and he can use the same reasons why he wants to get into commercial beekeeping.
> 
> He should tell them about that as well.
> 
> Look at it this way, if you get enough to buy everything you need ASAP, you can come through next spring with enough nucs to sell, and have what you need left over to do your queen thing.


How often have you actually seen life work out that way?


----------



## hedges

Assuming you're using the cloake board method, the biggest bottle-neck for raising queens is going to be nurse bees for the mating nucs. You can easily have...say...2 hives going with breeder queens and cloake boards...and as the fresh larvae in queen cups are already at day 3.5 in their development cycle, it syncs up pretty well with the 2 week schedule (week 1 first hive's queens, week 2, second hive's queens, week 3, first hive's queens, etc). But, each queen that comes out is going to need a week or so in a mating nuc. So, really, the limiting factor of how quickly you can start up your queen operation in the spring and how reliably you can run it all summer is going to be the nurse bee population for those mating nucs. THAT'S what you're going to have to build up. And roughly 30% of queens don't return from their mating flights, so figure to get 20 queens, you'll need 30+ nucs, minimum, running all the time...probably double that, given the time it takes to get a queen settled in a mating nuc and mated (of course these nucs can have 2-3 frames in them).

Others will probably correct me, I'm just going on the experience I've had in our chapter's queen rearing initiative.


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## WLC

Thus the loan. 

While there's nothing bad about making your own wooden ware when there is no alternative, it's better to focus on your primary business.

Making bees.

The worst that they could tell him at the bank is no.

But, since he has some pretty good reasons, has a plan for paying back the loan (a small business), and could come up with supporting references, I think that he should qualify for enough to get himself up and running.


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## hedges

Many states offer agricultural loans at low interest for specialty crops and starting farmers. Also, low interest loans for buying agricultural land, usually (from what I've read) in the form of matching some percentage of what you already have to invest in it with a low interest loan. I think you could even potentially get a low interest loan from some part of the farm bill for it.

A few places even have straight-up grants for beginning farmers, but it's certainly much rarer. It's worth checking out the government's informational portal for your area to see what IS available and if there's anything you can take advantage of.


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## GuyDurden

hedges said:


> Assuming you're using the cloake board method, the biggest bottle-neck for raising queens is going to be nurse bees for the mating nucs. You can easily have...say...2 hives going with breeder queens and cloake boards...and as the fresh larvae in queen cups are already at day 3.5 in their development cycle, it syncs up pretty well with the 2 week schedule (week 1 first hive's queens, week 2, second hive's queens, week 3, first hive's queens, etc). ...... you'll need 30+ nucs, minimum, running all the time...probably double that, given the time it takes to get a queen settled in a mating nuc and mated (of course these nucs can have 2-3 frames in them).
> 
> Others will probably correct me, I'm just going on the experience I've had in our chapter's queen rearing initiative.


I was going to run numbers tonight, factoring 40% queens failing. I did plan on running the 20+ nucs I would need, I would let the queens come back, begin to lay, and hopefully this will roughly happen around each "batch" of queens, once they lay and I know they are good, then and only then, send them off and start over. Hopefully, in this way, i can replenish some nurse stock in between runs. Otherwise, Ill be changing out frames all the time in order to replenish the nurse stock, right?
I figured I would buy the nucs, and keep them in a nuc box. Problem is, this doesn't really give me room to grow. I'll need at least 2 additional hives to raise drones, if my understanding is correct, and doesn't allow me to build a colony up very much with all the queen changing out and all. So it looks even if I bought 30 nucs, I would have to keep a few aside, to build up and split off or just keep a few (5?) around, and pull brood frame every so often, and consolidate before overwintering. 

Or so I think. I have until spring to figure out what I want to do, and how to do it.


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## BeeCurious

WLC said:


> Look at it this way, if you get enough to buy everything you need ASAP, you can come through next spring with enough nucs to sell, and have what you need left over to do your queen thing.


Imaginations seem to be running wild.... 

The OP has three hives.

Please explain where all of the bee resources come from... to have "enough nucs to sell, and have what you need left over to do your queen thing" in the Spring.


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## GuyDurden

hedges said:


> Many states offer agricultural loans at low interest for specialty crops and starting farmers. Also, low interest loans for buying agricultural land, usually (from what I've read) in the form of matching some percentage of what you already have to invest in it with a low interest loan. I think you could even potentially get a low interest loan from some part of the farm bill for it.
> 
> A few places even have straight-up grants for beginning farmers, but it's certainly much rarer. It's worth checking out the government's informational portal for your area to see what IS available and if there's anything you can take advantage of.


Excellent idea, really. I recently found out that the VA home loans will also cover farms and such, with minor stipulations, so I'll be researching that as well. Would be nice to find a grant, wouldn't it?


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## WLC

sqkcrk:

If he gets enough to start now...
he's going to have to take his chances like everyone else.

He will have to overwinter, then split hives, to grow anyhow.

He just needs to find out how from his mentor.

Summer splits are here, now.


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## hedges

Most grants are associated with education or improving the state of the distribution or viability of a crop. The USDA Specialty Crop Block Grants are concerned with this (honey is considered a specialty crop). There are usually low-interest loans for starting farmers, however, through the farm bill and other state agricultural agencies. I also read in another thread that some part of KY, for example, has money set aside from tobacco settlements to grant out to farmers in other productive crops to help steer away from tobacco.


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## sqkcrk

BeeCurious said:


> Imaginations seem to be running wild....
> 
> The OP has three hives.
> 
> Please explain where all of the bee resources come from... to have "enough nucs to sell, and have what you need left over to do your queen thing" in the Spring.




As someone who has had financed a beekeeping operation let me tell you how it worked for me. I had two FSA loans to buy a cpl of bee outfits back in the late 1980s. Then in 1987 the night before the Loan Officers were scheduled to come see me about a Loan to build a building my extracting plant, a construction site office trailer w/ all of my extracting equipment burned to the ground.

The FSA guys came to see me and said that the insurance money would be held in escrow for me to use. But I had to use it for equipment not a building. Which made no sense to me. What would I do w/ extracting equipment w/out a bldg to set it up in? Extract in a tent?

They sat at my kitchen table and told me they had a Building Loan Category but there was no money in it. So much for financing. But that's just one story.

If you can get financing, do so. Then work your butt off making your payments. Don't get anywhere w/out hard work.


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## GuyDurden

WLC said:


> sqkcrk:
> 
> Summer splits are here, now.


Maybe in NY, but not here. Robbing is our issue, as this is our dearth before the practically non existent fall flow, which is rarely productive enough to count on as much, from what i have learned. Otherwise, i'll be feeding them copiously, without much hope of them overwintering. It can be done, I'm just not comfortable enough to worry about it right now, as I have the 3 hives and not much room for error without starting from scratch next year. I'd rather go into spring with 2-3 established colonies, and spend the money building up what's available to me then, rather than spending my money now, and gamble on what happens during the winter. Just my thought process if you were wondering.


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## Specialkayme

As far as 20 queens a week goes, 30 mating nucs is far off, by far. The limiting factor is the nurse bees, for sure. But the numbers run a little harder. It goes more like:

1. To end with 20 mated queens, you should account for a 35% fail rate. Start with 30 mating nuts. But that's PER WEEK. From plant date to pluck date, you're usually 3 weeks off. It's a good idea to wait at least 4, that way you can fully evaluate the queens laying ability, and let her replace some of the nurse bees. So if you want 20 a week, and you need 30 to get 20 queens in one week, and they are on a 4 week schedule, that puts you at 120 mating nucs, minimum. 

2. Stocking those mating nucs is tricky. I've heard commercials say one booming hive can stock 4 mating nucs. I'd be willing to go a little further, say around 6 on average, if you feed the crud out of those production colonies in the late winter. So that means you'll need a minimum of 20 production colonies to support your 120 nucs.

3. You'll need breeder colonies. At least one, but that will produce some genetic bottlenecking. Best to have a few to work with, and select the best of your minimum 20 production colonies.

4. Drone colonies. You'll need at least 1 drone colony for each 10-20 mating nucs. I'd suggest closer to the lower end here. These shouldn't be the same as your "nurse bee" hives, as you don't want to rob nurse bees from your drone hives. It will end badly. So that means another 12 drone colonies for your 120 mating nucs.

5. You'll need cell builder and cell finisher colonies for your cells. At 40 cells per week (considering there is a cell failure rate), it would be best to have at least two builders and two finishers for each week. This way you can cycle them in and out, and let them rest. So that would make 4 per week, or 16 total extra colonies. 

So, to have 20 queens a week, you'll need 120 mating nucs, 20 production colonies, 4 breeder colonies, 12 drone colonies, and 16 builder/finisher colonies. For a total of 52 hives. That's your minimum.


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## hpm08161947

Guy - you are in NC. You can do splits now. You just got to feed them. You can feed until almost thanksgiving in NC. You got plenty of time.


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## sqkcrk

Gotta have bees and equipment to work with first Herb. He ain't reddy.


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## hedges

Specialkayme, you obviously have a much better handle on rearing than I do. And I think you're probably right that you want to allow 3 or 4 weeks per mating nuc, which ups the needs of nurse-bee-feeding production colonies. considerably. 

But it's my understanding that if you use the cloake board technique, you can combine the breeder colonies with the builder/finisher colonies. 

Combine that with going 3 weeks (starting out) instead of 4 in the mating nucs, and you're down 21 hives on your target to 31. Your target is probably safer and smarter, but it's also, I think, somewhat more of an end-state. It seems to me you could get to 20 a week consistently with less. I'm interested in your thoughts on it, though.


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## WLC

Ask your mentor about everything you need to know about feeding, treating, overwintering, etc. .

You might talk to him about starting now. I'd even ask him where he banks and apply for the loan there.

It's really about timing. If you miss the timing of an operation like overwintering, and then splitting, you'll miss two things...

One is simply learning how to overwinter a significant number of colonies, and then splitting them. It's not just the mechanics, it's the people you'll meet along the way.

The second thing, and this is most important, taking in revenues in your first year.

That is the measure of success. Can you produce revenue, and have enough assets (hives included) to do the next operation, or, are you back to square one, and in debt?

I mean, do you really want to be a commercial beekeeper, or do you want to play around?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

I agree with WLC that getting a credit card _before _you plan to use it is a good idea. Once you have a credit card, there is nothing that says you have to make big purchases (that might require monthly payments) using the card. 

Use the card for ordinary items like gas for your vehicle. You will build a valuable credit history over time, with absolutely no effort. Of course, you have to pay the bill, and ontime! But if you look around, you can get a _credit _card (not a debit card) that will deduct the _full _monthly bill from your checking account without you having to remember do it.

In fact, Capital One (and some others) offers a credit card that pays a _cash back_ percentage (and direct linking to my checking account), and automatic full balance payment. So in the end, you actually pay _less _than if you paid cash!


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## sqkcrk

"Well do ya .... ?" Dirty Harry


----------



## hedges

A counter-point to WLC is that you're getting into new territory here. Having the ability to get a proof-of-concept year where you ARE making a profit and getting all the growing pains out in terms of knowing the process in queen rearing might not be a terrible idea instead of betting the farm on results fresh out of the gate. Operating at a lower capacity would also give you time to slowly get your name out, instead of having 20 queens a week available boom and not having the people to sell to.

I'm not saying take forever and build slowly, but it's always a good idea to have a firm foundation before you go all-in.

Of course, take what I say with a grain of salt. I just got a gig all fall doing a honey harvest with a commercial operation to turn around and take my money from it and expand my hive count 2000%. But it won't be debt!


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## sqkcrk

Do you mean like learn to keep bees first? And then specialize?


----------



## hedges

I mean specialize (to the extent you can) first and then expand on it (through loans) once you feel confident with it. If he has little experience with queen rearing, and little experience with making his checkpoints in terms of profitability, it's very easy to overspend or have unforseen setbacks and suddenly, oh crap, he has debt and doesn't have the payout he wanted.

That always exists in business, but a certain amount of iteration before scaling is always a good idea. (humble opinion)


----------



## sqkcrk

You don't see rearing queens before he has any number of hives of bees like putting the cart before the horse? I can't imagine he knows much about bee biology yet.


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## hedges

Well, you don't need to do 20 queens a week to be able to queen rear, do you? I don't know, that's an honest question. If he can expand out of pocket next year and get to halfway of what his goal is for the following year, then it seems like a safer (albeit slower) roadmap.

I just think putting all your chips into a loan and debt before knowing what it's going to look like, especially if you can be solvent at a lower scale, is a daunting task. People do it and succeed with it, but it's daunting.


----------



## BeeCurious

GuyDurden said:


> I have the 3 hives and not much room for error without starting from scratch next year. I'd rather go into spring with 2-3 established colonies, and spend the money building up what's available to me then, rather than spending my money now, and gamble on what happens during the winter.


I think you have have made a very wise management decision...


----------



## GuyDurden

Specialkayme said:


> As far as 20 queens a week goes, 30 mating nucs is far off, by far. The limiting factor is the nurse bees, for sure. But the numbers run a little harder. It goes more like:
> 
> 
> So, to have 20 queens a week, you'll need 120 mating nucs, 20 production colonies, 4 breeder colonies, 12 drone colonies, and 16 builder/finisher colonies. For a total of 52 hives. That's your minimum.


I think minimum is the key word. I'll have to work out a plan on separating a bee yard, I have a place, in Oak Ridge, that is quite far from me. That way, if I get new genetics in, I can evaluate their performance before I bring them in and use the drones or queens. 

52 sounds like a good minimum, bare minimum. I do, as with everything, worry about gene flow. If I stuck with 52, I would have to get more then next year, absolutely, or I would fear the consequences of inbreeding. 

I probably need more like, 65, because starting out say 60 nucs or packages (doubt the packages would build quick enough to do anything productive for me), some will be duds, i just know it. 

I am a bit confused about sections 5 though. 2 extra builder/finisher (4 total) per week...how does that amount to 16 extra hives, and not 8? what did I miss.....Are you not rotating back to the 4 hives that "rested" that week, and using them again?


----------



## GuyDurden

BeeCurious said:


> I think you have have made a very wise management decision...



I finally got something right!


----------



## sqkcrk

How many hives does Guy have? How many years has he had them? He's just starting out isn't he? He can't build a Business Plan w/out some experience. Even w/ some experience a Business Plan won't mean much of anything real the way I see things going.


----------



## GuyDurden

hedges said:


> Well, you don't need to do 20 queens a week to be able to queen rear, do you? I don't know, that's an honest question. If he can expand out of pocket next year and get to halfway of what his goal is for the following year, then it seems like a safer (albeit slower) roadmap.
> 
> I just think putting all your chips into a loan and debt before knowing what it's going to look like, especially if you can be solvent at a lower scale, is a daunting task. People do it and succeed with it, but it's daunting.


I'm not even entertaining the idea of accumulating debt because I got a wild hair up my arse and decided to build up an apiary. Now when I was receiving advice about just having the credit cards to build credit, I can stomach that, worst case, i absolutely have to feed or treat, and I have the credit to do it if I did not have the cash, rather than loose everything and re-spend saved money (if available) just to get to step one again.


----------



## hedges

I mean, my parents remember the depression...so I grew up with a long, involved narrative about the evils of credit and debt. I just balk at the cavalier way people talk about taking out loans. I wouldn't personally without some confidence that I knew what I was doing. Personal view only, I guess.

I guess my only advice then would be make sure to allow room for failure and correction. If you're taking out a loan and spending it all on the first wave of expenses, you're probably going to feel those growing pains a lot harder.


----------



## hedges

GuyDurden said:


> I'm not even entertaining the idea of accumulating debt because I got a wild hair up my arse and decided to build up an apiary. Now when I was receiving advice about just having the credit cards to build credit, I can stomach that, worst case, i absolutely have to feed or treat, and I have the credit to do it if I did not have the cash, rather than loose everything and re-spend saved money (if available) just to get to step one again.


Good man.


----------



## WLC

He's got a mentor.

So, that's a pretty important person to lean on.

There's really just one 'Beekeeing College' course available to him. Getting everything he needs, and doing everything it takes to successfully overwinter a 'challenging' number of hives, splitting them, generating revenue, and then moving on to the net operation.

No honey, no summer splits, no queens, no pollinating, no fixing equipment. etc. .

I don't see what else is available to him.

What's he going to learn with three hives?

He needs to learn to operate on a totally different scale, and get used to kinds of assets (and expenses) that can actually generate income.

That's what determines how big he needs to start.

Of course, that number depends on how big a bankroll he can raise, and what he can handle with his mentor's help.


----------



## GuyDurden

hedges said:


> Well, you don't need to do 20 queens a week to be able to queen rear, do you? I don't know, that's an honest question. If he can expand out of pocket next year and get to halfway of what his goal is for the following year, then it seems like a safer (albeit slower) roadmap.



I think I have answered the debt question in my previous posts, if it is still unclear, I'm not going the credit card route. 

I have the connections to sell up to 40 +/- queens a week during peak season, and up 20 +/- when things are a bit slower. So I started at the low end of what I *know* I could sell if I could reliably produce that number, of course, I should have mentioned I will obviously adjust those numbers based on what I learn and come up with. For example, lets say I know I can sell everything that 20 hives could produce, but can only afford ten. I wouldn't necessarily max out those 10 just so I could sell everything, and risk overworking the hives and stagnating. I would be more apt to work with 7 or so colonies, and use the extras to grow, fill what I know I could sell, and readjust as I get more established, to eventually reach the goal (in the example) of selling what I could (within reason) from those 20 hives, and have plenty of other backup hives. 

In theory.


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## GuyDurden

hedges said:


> I mean, my parents remember the depression...so I grew up with a long, involved narrative about the evils of credit and debt. I just balk at the cavalier way people talk about taking out loans.......
> 
> I guess my only advice then would be make sure to allow room for failure and correction. If you're taking out a loan and spending it all on the first wave of expenses, you're probably going to feel those growing pains a lot harder.


+10,000


----------



## Richard Cryberg

I see queens often not laying until 21 days after emergence. And I also see some drone laying queens that failed to get fertilized. So, if you plan on pulling queens for sale you really need to let them lay long enough to see sealed brood. Or you can quick wreck your reputation and eliminate all future sales of queens. An advantage to seeing some sealed brood is the mating nucs will maintain strength and not need added bees often, if ever. Seems to me like you would be real lucky to get a queen out of the mating nucs on average at 21 days unless you live in a desert and never have rain or windy days. A cycle time of more like every 30 days sounds a lot more realistic to me. That means about four queens per mating nuc X .7 (to account for losses on mating flights)/ summer. And, that nuc whose queen got lost on her mating flight is now junk and probably needs replaced often enough it is not worth trying to save them whenever the queen gets lost. Making 1000 grafted queen cells is dirt easy. Getting them mated and laying is where the work is. If you are going to earn a subsistence living you only need to produce maybe 3000 good grafts a year. That means 1000 mating nucs. Sure does not sound like an easy way to earn a living to me. Just think about having to go thru 250 mating nucs a week to find the queens so you can sell them. At 12 per hour that is half your 40 hour week right there. Can you find and catch a queen in five minutes even in a mating nuc? I can not average that speed. Producing nucs for sale does not need so many queens. But producing nucs for sale is more capital intensive also. If either was anyplace close to easy there would be a ton of people doing it and queens would sell for $5.


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## BeeCurious

GuyDurden said:


> I finally got something right!


For building up your hive numbers you might want to consider using queen cells or virgin queens.

I recently purchased 21 virgins and will be moving the successfully mated queens from the seven queen castles to 5-frame mediums boxes very soon. And yes, a lot of feeding will be required. 

You need drawn comb, bees, and boxes. There's a lot of mistakes to be made. Having a loan will allow you to make more mistakes sooner than you normally would. IMO (But I'm "just" a hobbyist.)


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## GuyDurden

sqkcrk said:


> Gotta have bees and equipment to work with first Herb. He ain't reddy.


How do you like that castle? I have talked to several that didn't like it, and coincindentally they moved to 3 frame "nucs" to breed in. 

Of course, as Mr. Cryberg was touching on, many arent waiting for sealed brood. I'd rather build slower and have a good rep than just put out a bunch of accidental virgins. There's an apiary around here rather infamous for that.....

And BC, about the cells, why couldn't I just make my own cells and queen up with those? 


Of course gene flow is a factor i would have to work out with that, if all the queens in the yard were from the same mom....


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## Specialkayme

hpm08161947 said:


> Guy - you are in NC. You can do splits now. You just got to feed them. You can feed until almost thanksgiving in NC. You got plenty of time.


NC is a broad state. The coast, the piedmont, the mountains are all different. I don't attempt to say I know anything about keeping bees in the mountains or on the coast. I don't know if you have experience keeping bees in the piedmont. But from my experience, splits in July, even with feeding, is a recipe for disaster. Better to wait till August when you have some form of fall flows going on, feed like crazy and split. Doing it now and you have a good chance of losing some hives to robbing.


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## Specialkayme

hedges said:


> But it's my understanding that if you use the cloake board technique, you can combine the breeder colonies with the builder/finisher colonies.


You can. And on a small scale this works well. On a larger scale it isn't such a good idea. I consider 20 queens a week as a larger scale (beyond personal needs).

Breeder queens usually don't last long, due to the II. So you usually want to keep their populations down, to prolong the lifespan of the queen. On the other side, you want starter and finisher colonies to be PACKED full of bees. The more nurse bees, the better the cells. 

So you are really sacrificing one for the other when you combine breeder colonies with starters/finishers. Either not enough nurse bees to feed the cells properly, or more bees than a breeder should be producing. 

There is also a risk that a breeder queen could be lost. Occasionally a queen will slip past the excluder (happens in all queen right finishers occasionally). When she does, if she does it early on in the process she will just destroy your cells. At that point you're a week off on your cycle. But if she does it late, she could be battling with a younger virgin. She may not make it. Breeder queens are very expensive, and very valuable. I would prefer not to take that risk.



hedges said:


> Combine that with going 3 weeks (starting out) instead of 4 in the mating nucs, and you're down 21 hives on your target to 31.


You can go down to 3 weeks on the nucs, but starting out I don't think that's the best route. Mind you that's what most commercials do, from what I've been told. But three weeks doesn't allow you to fully evaluate your queens. Occasionally you may send out a drone layer, or a poorly mated queen, and you wouldn't know it. For big operations, no big deal. For the little guy, that means either a lost colony or a pissed off neighbor. Plus, the extra week allows the mated queen to lay more. Having more brood increases the acceptance of the next cell you plant, and helps replenish some of the nucs population. If you reduce to 3 weeks, you may have to shake in some nurse bees every now and then. At 120 nucs, I wouldn't want to be shaking extra bees in, as you would need MORE colonies.

The longer you let the queen lay, the more her pheromones develop, as well as her ovaries. You want big, plump queens, with tons of ovarioles and strong pheromones. Thats harder to get with 21 day queens, and isn't as common.


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## Specialkayme

GuyDurden said:


> If I stuck with 52, I would have to get more then next year, absolutely, or I would fear the consequences of inbreeding.
> 
> I am a bit confused about sections 5 though. 2 extra builder/finisher (4 total) per week...how does that amount to 16 extra hives, and not 8? what did I miss.....Are you not rotating back to the 4 hives that "rested" that week, and using them again?


You don't need to buy more hives to reduce inbreeding. Just new queens. Some breeder, some drone.

You get 16 extra hives, as you need 2 starters and 2 finishers per week. That makes 4 per week. If you are on a 4 week cycle, that makes 16.

You can cut it down some, but not much. Your first go around you will want to graft 60-80 cells in an attempt to end up with 30 viable ones. You might not even at that. Later you'll get better at it. But if you tried to put 60 cells in one starter, you'll end up with sub par queens. So you need to divide them up among two starters. The starters/finishers will work on a 3 week cycle. You can take the 4th week to let them rest, or push them right back into the mix and work them to death. Eventually you'll run out of nurse bees to feed the cells. Or you could cut back on starters/finishers and have more colonies for nurse bees. It's just robbing peter to pay paul at that point though. 

If you had 2 starters, that you then switched to finishers, then when the 4 weeks was over you turned back into starters, it might work. But, you might have a hard time maintaining the high populations in those hives, making sure most are nurse bees. Could be done. I wouldn't plan on it though.


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## Waterbird17

remember.... a good beekeeper is not judged by the amount of hives he/she has. its the health of those hives that matters.


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## Specialkayme

GuyDurden said:


> How do you like that castle? I have talked to several that didn't like it, and coincindentally they moved to 3 frame "nucs" to breed in.


I prefer queen castles. I've tried 3 frame nucs, 2 frame nucs, and 5 frame nucs as well. I like the 5 frame, but it requires too many resources. It also takes longer to find the queens. 3 and 2 frame nucs boom or bust easily. Either swarm, or get robbed out by the stronger drone colonies near by. I've also had SHB issues with them. For some reason I've had better success with castles.


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## LT

Who is selling virgins in your area?


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## WLC

Guy:

Don't say anything disparaging about your fellows in public. It won't help anybody.


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## matt1954

Hey Mark, the pollination contracts would be considered an asset under "Goodwill". How accountants apply it is an art form and in my opinion is more subjective than objective.



sqkcrk said:


> I didn't say I didn't have any pollination income, just that I don't see how I can list that as an Asset, something I could sell.
> 
> There have been times I have considered talking to someone at Social Services about SNAP, but we got by. Have relied on SS for Son's Health Insurance.
> 
> I put value of hives at $100.00 because if I was selling them there aren't people out there knocking down door to pay more. Not for 500 at once.
> 
> What valuation would you put on a two story or story and a half hive, some w/ two shallows of honey on them? What about after the honey comes off?


----------



## matt1954

I will give some info here for what its worth.

I am a serious sideliner in my opinion with 150 colonies and 26 Nucs.

Income:

Profit from package sales: 25.00 each (Sold 240 in 2012, 650 in 2013 project about 1200 in 2014)
Made three different varietals for total of 7800 pounds in 2012, sold to stores at $6.50 per pound, bottled. Will add a fourth in Sep (Brazilian pepper)
Nucs sold 150 at 145 in 2012, none in 2013, project sales of 100-150 in 2014. 
Pollination: 2012, 7800.00, 2013, one crop, 11250.00
Farmers Markets (Sat only) 400-700 depending on time of month. Honey is sold at 10.00 per pound.
Queens, sell about 20-40 per month at 30.00 each. 
Classes: teach one class per year at 125.00 per student, 12 students 2012, 35 in 2013. one day class. 
Bees wax, 10.00 per pound, clean. about 60-80 pounds. 

I have no employees and rely on volunteers to help out. my wife also handles all the back office paperwork and I am very fortunate to have a govt retirement.


----------



## Brian Suchan

matt1954 said:


> I will give some info here for what its worth.
> 
> I am a serious sideliner in my opinion with 150 colonies and 26 Nucs.
> 
> Income:
> 
> Profit from package sales: 25.00 each (Sold 240 in 2012, 650 in 2013 project about 1200 in 2014)
> Made three different varietals for total of 7800 pounds in 2012, sold to stores at $6.50 per pound, bottled. Will add a fourth in Sep (Brazilian pepper)
> Nucs sold 150 at 145 in 2012, none in 2013, project sales of 100-150 in 2014.
> Pollination: 2012, 7800.00, 2013, one crop, 11250.00
> Farmers Markets (Sat only) 400-700 depending on time of month. Honey is sold at 10.00 per pound.
> Queens, sell about 20-40 per month at 30.00 each.
> Classes: teach one class per year at 125.00 per student, 12 students 2012, 35 in 2013. one day class.
> Bees wax, 10.00 per pound, clean. about 60-80 pounds.
> 
> I have no employees and rely on volunteers to help out. my wife also handles all the back office paperwork and I am very fortunate to have a govt retirement.




What about all the exspense that goes into it??


----------



## matt1954

We made a total profit of around 26k. I did not have to touch personal funds to support the operation, and like others we invested every dime toward expansion this year. I am hoping to be at 300 colonies by years end, but we will see.


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## Specialkayme

matt1954 said:


> Income:
> 
> Profit from package sales: 25.00 each (Sold 240 in 2012, 650 in 2013 project about 1200 in 2014)
> Made three different varietals for total of 7800 pounds in 2012, sold to stores at $6.50 per pound, bottled. Will add a fourth in Sep (Brazilian pepper)
> Nucs sold 150 at 145 in 2012, none in 2013, project sales of 100-150 in 2014.
> Pollination: 2012, 7800.00, 2013, one crop, 11250.00
> Farmers Markets (Sat only) 400-700 depending on time of month. Honey is sold at 10.00 per pound.
> Queens, sell about 20-40 per month at 30.00 each.
> Classes: teach one class per year at 125.00 per student, 12 students 2012, 35 in 2013. one day class.
> Bees wax, 10.00 per pound, clean. about 60-80 pounds.
> .


Priceless information. Thank you so much for sharing this.


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## sqkcrk

matt1954 said:


> We made a total profit of around 26k.


Profit? Or Income? There's a difference. Profit is what is left after you subtract Expenses from Income. I'm sure you know that. I'm just trying to understand better whether you made $26,000.00 more Income than Expenses.


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## GuyDurden

Specialkayme said:


> You don't need to buy more hives to reduce inbreeding. Just new queens. Some breeder, some drone.
> 
> You get 16 extra hives, as you need 2 starters and 2 finishers per week. That makes 4 per week. If you are on a 4 week cycle, that makes 16.
> 
> If you had 2 starters, that you then switched to finishers, then when the 4 weeks was over you turned back into starters, it might work. But, you might have a hard time maintaining the high populations in those hives, making sure most are nurse bees. Could be done. I wouldn't plan on it though.


Insightful, and I appreciate it. I would be more worried about leftover drones, but I could figure around that as well. I knew I didn't need more colonies, just "fresh" genes. I'm still working on the plan, thanks.



Waterbird17 said:


> remember.... a good beekeeper is not judged by the amount of hives he/she has. its the health of those hives that matters.


Indeed, and I thought much about this over the last few days. I really hope I am not coming across like I just want bragging rights for number of colonies. I feel that in 3 years I could have something going for me that produces income. This will obviously take lifestyle changes in what I do in my leisure time and how much espresso I drink, but I have the discipline I believe. I already took the first step in becoming debt free. 100%. My only bills are rent, cell phone, and car insurance. The little things like gas are part of my running expenses, I just wanted to put it out there that I'm not going to loose a house or my truck if I don't make money in those 3 years, but say 4-5 instead. 



Specialkayme said:


> I prefer queen castles. I've tried 3 frame nucs, .... I've also had SHB issues with them. For some reason I've had better success with castles.


I've been trying to figure out how I am going work this is why I asked. I met a breeder, actually two, that didn't particularly care for the castles, one prefered 3 frame, and one preferred nucs. I guess everyone has their preferences. 

Do you think if one really stayed on top of things, the 3 frames might work out better? SHB scares me with them, as does robbing. But what if one stayed on top of them, and cycled them out. Probably a horrible plan, but what if you just created 3 frame nucs as needed, and "donated" them once done back to weaker colonies. Just a spur of the moment idea, thinking out loud. I am actively looking into possibilities, this just came to mind after reading your post. 



LT said:


> Who is selling virgins in your area?


If this is directed towards me, no one to my knowledge. I don't plan to. I might on occasion to someone who wants to requeen because something happened to theirs. Say they rolled her or she just got old, but they really liked her. I have tossed around the idea if they could get one quick enough from me, they could take her and intro her (with risk, obviously) to breed with any drone they may have in their apiary from the queens they like. 

This is risky IMO, as mentioned, so I would probably only do this with people I know well, that understand the risk (or care enough to discuss this option and begin to understand why this may not work) and would probably do it for nearly free if I had the issue of having too many, as if. 



WLC said:


> Guy:
> 
> Don't say anything disparaging about your fellows in public. It won't help anybody.


Didn't plan to, I was going to leave it as it was. At most, I was hoping for a chuckle from anyone from here that may know the persons in question. That's all. I'm not giving out any names. 



matt1954 said:


> I will give some info here for what its worth.
> 
> I am a serious sideliner in my opinion with 150 colonies and 26 Nucs.
> 
> Income:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no employees and rely on volunteers to help out. my wife also handles all the back office paperwork and I am very fortunate to have a govt retirement.


This is inspiring to say the least. I'm sure you put much work and effort into this and I'm glad it's (apparently) paying off. I hope to be where you are or better (no offense, we can all dream!) in a few years, many sweat beads, bee stings, and tears later.





I just got my first grafting lesson, and a few hours of discussion from someone with much more experience than myself. It helped me put some things together, and I'm grateful for the opportunity. 

I also received "Queen Rearing Essentials" in the mail, in hopes that it in combination with my other readings will help me develop a good plan to start with. 

I figured I would start, next spring, really trying to knock some out. I figured 10 a week is realistic for my first year in this venture. Any extra would be considered a blessing, and mostly given out or exchanged as barter to people close to me until I had the resources and experience to reliably produce more, and of course consistent in quality. 

If I had a _minimum_ 40 nucs, I believe I could do ten at a time, rotating out the 40 so that the queens could be in there a month, build the colony a bit, and be more thoroughly evaluated. I'm also working on coming up with how many start/finisher/drone colonies this would require, and have a few extra to allow some to rest. Hopefully my studies will clear this up. I really like the idea of having extra nucs incase I can produce more than I thought, and also let them build up, as I have seen nucs build quite quickly around here. 

Once I figure out how many colonies of which size I need, I can start to budget how many nucs I'll need to order, and how many nucs and hives to build. I already have the bodies to run 7-10 hives depending on how I set them up (Double deep, all medium etc) I figured it's best to run double deep for the start finishers and probably the drones as well.


----------



## matt1954

sqkcrk said:


> Profit? Or Income? There's a difference. Profit is what is left after you subtract Expenses from Income. I'm sure you know that. I'm just trying to understand better whether you made $26,000.00 more Income than Expenses.


Mark, my degree is in accounting and law enforcement. I meant 26k profit after all was said and done. (2012) But, as a caveat, I did not figure my hourly rate in there at all. If I had, I am sure I would be in negative numbers. My retirement helps to get us through peaks and valleys. I have no debt, except a house payment.


----------



## Specialkayme

GuyDurden said:


> Do you think if one really stayed on top of things, the 3 frames might work out better? SHB scares me with them, as does robbing. But what if one stayed on top of them, and cycled them out. Probably a horrible plan, but what if you just created 3 frame nucs as needed, and "donated" them once done back to weaker colonies. Just a spur of the moment idea, thinking out loud. I am actively looking into possibilities, this just came to mind after reading your post.


Three frame nucs work alot like observation hives (probably because they are so similar in size  ). They either boom, or bust. When they boom, they swarm and there goes the queen. When they bust, they get stressed out and either collapse or abscond. Either way, you'll have a good amount of losses.

I would guess it is possible to "stay on top of them" a little better. But mating nucs need their peace and quiet. They don't do so well if you are cracking them open every other day. Best to leave them alone for 2, 3 or 4 weeks to let the bees do their thing. Problem, of course, is alot can happen in 2, 3, or 4 weeks. They can either get over crowded and swarm, under crowded and abscond, or perish from SHB. Just to name a few. That's of course not taking into consideration the robbing issues you'll likely have this time of year in this location. Gotta keep those populations high, which compounds your issues.

I wouldn't plan on moving mating nucs back into weak production colonies. It's a bad idea to combine weak with weak anyway. But mating nucs work well on a cycle. Get them going, and stick with it. No need to break them up mid-season.



GuyDurden said:


> I also received "Queen Rearing Essentials" in the mail, in hopes that it in combination with my other readings will help me develop a good plan to start with.


Not my favorite book. Also not my favorite author, so that may contribute to my bias. I think you'd be better off with Laidlaw's book, or Contemporary Queen Rearing.



GuyDurden said:


> I figured 10 a week is realistic for my first year in this venture.


Shoot for the stars if you like, but I would scale back your first year. You don't have any experience doing this, and there will be a large learning curve. You're going to have losses. You will also need considerably more hives than you currently have to pull off 10 a week. That's roughly 52 mating nucs (which means 1 breeder, 2 starters/finishers, 9 "nurse bee" colonies, and roughly 10 drone colonies, at a minimum). You aren't near the 32 hives that you'll need to support this. Turning 3 hives into 32 in one year is possible. Turning the 3 hives you have now into 32 by early spring isn't likely.

Not attempting to be discouraging. Just realistic. If you expand, you won't have the bee resources to also devote to breeding. It's either expand or populate some mating nucs come spring time. Keep that in mind.

Buying nucs is great. But keep in mind that it will take them time to build up to full colonies (the kind you need for drone colonies and nurse bee colonies). Ordering early, you may be able to get some at the end of March. More than likely, you'll have to wait till April, and I know many in the area that sell out quickly so you have to buy in May. A May nuc will miss the tulip poplar bloom in this area, which is your main flow. You want to be breeding this time. So that means you can let them build up for May and June before you rob resources for your mating nucs. This is about the time that our dearth kicks in (typically). So now you are building mating nucs and fighting robbing, spending big $$$ on feeding to keep the queens at high quality. You can probably do two full cycles (July and August) at this, before you should consider breaking them down, to allow plenty of time for them to overwinter properly (or you can sacrifice them, and keep breeding well into October, possibly even November).

You could look into buying full colonies now, or in early spring, which would increase your time table considerably. But full colonies cost significantly more (although, in my opinion they are the cheapest for what you end up getting).

My suggestion is to start smaller your first year. Don't set a "per week" goal. Just make up as many mating nucs as you can, and practice grafting. Don't practice the cycle, just the process. If you end up with 5 a week, fantastic. If you end up with 5 for the season, you've learned a whole lot. However many you make (1-100) you can sell them easily on craigslist, or the ag review. So you don't need a minimum. In my opinion, if you shoot for 10 a week (or even 5) you may be spreading your resources a little too thin. Better to spend this first year to figure out how many hives you need to do it on a smaller scale, then scale things up. Just my two cents though.


----------



## Markt

Another thing I'd try is learning to become efficient; figure out if you had 500 hives (Or whatever your target is) how much time you'd have to spend on each nuc/hive/whatever and try to streamline your manipulations so that you only spend that much time on each unit... It won't be possible at the start to meet that time goal and you shouldn't neglect them to meet it but you should always keep it in the back of your mind so that you can figure out what manipulations are worth doing and what ones you just won't have time for once you're on a larger scale. Time management is the key to everything in my opinion


----------



## GuyDurden

Specialkayme said:


> Three frame nucs work alot like observation hives (probably because they are so similar in size  ). They either boom, or bust. When they boom, they swarm and there goes the queen. When they bust, they get stressed out and either collapse or abscond. Either way, you'll have a good amount of losses.
> 
> Not my favorite book. Also not my favorite author, so that may contribute to my bias. I think you'd be better off with Laidlaw's book, or Contemporary Queen Rearing.
> 
> 
> You could look into buying full colonies now, or in early spring, which would increase your time table considerably. But full colonies cost significantly more (although, in my opinion they are the cheapest for what you end up getting).


Thanks for the input on the 3 frames. Will be carefully considered.

I was not planning any sort of goal this year, other than a few successful grafts and mates. I was going to buy around 50 nucs asap next year. If you know where I can get some as early as April, please PM me, I can pay as early as this fall or early winter if necessary, if from a trustworthy source. But I am a bit weary about that, as it would be hard to guarantee one's nucs would be ready early enough. Stuff happens, which is why I wouldn't order all 50. Not all my eggs in one basic.
Regardless, I have the funds for a deposit, which seems to be common practice in my short experience. I am just going to feed my current hives and use them as strong colonies next year.

I was trying to find some people around here that buy their nucs, and let them build in nuc boxes a few high early in the year, to see what kind of build up time they have, and possibly combine them or something later or put them in full size hives to be strong colonies for next year. I have seven full size hives, to include some double deep with one medium, and some "standard" single deep/3 mediums waiting for bees. It is my understanding they build up quicker in the nucs, and is generally seen as a good idea to let them build this way, and put them in a full (8frame or so) later before they boom.

I have only seen 4 full sized colonies available for sale this season, didn't think there was much supply (near me) for that. But I do agree, in the long run, probably a better investment. I'll keep an eye out for those. 

Is craigslist a good way to sell? I've thought about it, and was definitely going to post there, but didn't think I would have much success. The ag review is something I was going to look into, but I think I get put on that when I get inspected, correct? I might be thinking of something else. 

Also, about the inspection, I understand if I am selling more than 4 nucs a year, I need that inspect. Do you have an idea how that works? like how long does it take for the inspector to get there, and the process? I was going to call our regional inspector next week and start planning for that, even though I don't think I will be selling 4 nucs next year as they would be better used to expand. 

I think your advice is sound, and I appreciate the time you put into talking about this on a serious note. I dont think you are trying to discourage me, just being realistic, and idealistic guys like me need that time to time. 

All this planning around factors, such as timing around flows and environmental and genetic influences is work in itself, but i find it almost as fun as tearing into a hive. 

I may be misreading, but I thought you (or someone said) that I needed a minimum of 52 hives for a 20/a week operation, and now I knocked it down in half and I'll still need 52?

10 a week is the high end of the goal, in all honesty, 10 that year while the nucs build and I get built up generally speaking will be good times for me. Would be nice though....



Markt said:


> Another thing I'd try is learning to become efficient; figure out if you had 500 hives (Or whatever your target is) how much time you'd have to spend on each nuc/hive/whatever and try to streamline your manipulations so that you only spend that much time on each unit....... Time management is the key to everything in my opinion


Absolutely. Thanks!


----------



## apis maximus

GuyDurden said:


> Also, about the inspection, I understand if I am selling more than 4 nucs a year, I need that inspect. Do you have an idea how that works? like how long does it take for the inspector to get there, and the process? I was going to call our regional inspector next week and start planning for that, even though I don't think I will be selling 4 nucs next year as they would be better used to expand.


From the NCDA, Apiary Services:

*It is unlawful to market queens, packages, nucs, or hives before the Permit to Sell Bees in North Carolina has been issued. Prior to selling bees in North Carolina, a person shall obtain a permit from NCDA&CS.
In North Carolina, a permit to sell bees is not required for (1) the sale of less than 10 bee hives in a calendar year, (2) at one time going -out-of-business sale of less than 50 bee hives, or (3) the renting of bees for pollination purposes or the movement of bees to gather honey. *
More info here:
http://www.ncagr.gov/plantindustry/plant/apiary/

I asked for an inspection and sent all the required documents/fee in March...got inspected beginning of May.
The earlier you send in the fee and request an inspection, the better. Once the season gets rolling, the inspectors get pretty busy.
The process...up to the inspector. But, he/she will open and inspect a lot of the hives...sometimes all. Once done, you get a Certificate of Inspection and if all is good, a Permit to sell bees in NC. Both good for one year.

Good luck!


----------



## GuyDurden

Very nice, sir. Thank you kindly. I'll talk with the inspector next time I see them, or call them next week. They often come to meetings or go to field days.


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## Matt903

Guy
Great thread! Glad you started it, you and I think alike, I would also like to make some money from my bees some day too. My plan is a ten year one though, retirement in ten years, but some things I have been doing now to hold down start up costs. 
1. Making my own nucs, lots of plans on line, I have been sawing old hive bodies in half and making solid bottom boards and sides. Saves a lot of money that way, and a lot of time it can be done from scrap lumber. 

2. Making my own tops for nucs and hives Michael Bush top entrance style. Check out his web site if you haven't already, lots of great information. 

3. Making my own screen bottom boards, using 2 x 4s and #8 hardware cloth. Not the fancy ones you can buy, but functional. 

4. Buying rough cut lumber from a guy here who has a small saw mill. I take the lumber to a local wood shop and they make hive bodies for me, much cheaper than what you can buy. Ask around, I bet someone there has a saw mill. Check on Craig's list. 

The only thing I buy from Mann lake and places like that are frames and foundation. I am considering going foundationless to save there, and just use a small starter strip. 

Oh and Craig's list is a good place to advertise, I sold several hives this spring posting there. I don't think the definition of a commercial beekeeper is a guy that has thousands of hives and trucks them out to Cali every sping for the almond bloom. If your making money from your bees, who cares how it is done? Or what others want to label it. I feel we should all be sticking together and not quibble over labeling each other. Good luck! Let me know how it goes. 

Matt


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## GuyDurden

Matt903 said:


> Guy
> Great thread! Glad you started it, you and I think alike, I would also like to make some money from my bees some day too. My plan is a ten year one though, retirement in ten years, but some things I have been doing now to hold down start up costs.
> Matt


Thanks for the encouragement! Best of luck to you and your ladies!

I think I must be coming across like i'm trying to do this _right now_, when really, I'm just trying to "act as if" 

Do I think it's likely that I will be able to consistently produce as little as 10 queens next year? Nope. I think if I study and work my butt off I can get at least close for a good run or two. At least to be able to supply myself with my own queens for splits and such. I would like the 40+ hives next year to be able to run them as if I will be when I'm more successful, call it practice, I call it "tuition". That way when I do have the means and skills, I can be a leg up from just starting out. 

There are so many different opinions and ways of doing things that there are many kinks to work out, things to plan, things to learn how to time out properly. It just doesn't seem right to me to practice on ten hives, and hope that you have the means to support a beekeeping business/lifestyle when the time comes. I will have losses. I will mess up, just part of it. I feel as if I go into this with 3, 5, 10, and 20 year goals, it will give me more drive and focus, not to include the practice. I am a long way off from thousands of hives on almonds, and I would rather produce varietal honeys anyway. 

At 2 dollars (tax, shipping or gas to pick up, installing foundation, and warehousing surplus etc) a frame, I can't justify making my own on an as needed basis. That's my local middle man price, before bulk discount. It would be some wear and tear on blades, and risky loosing a finger, just doesn't make sense to make _everything_ myself. Though, I do plan on getting a wax foundation embossing machine eventually. 

As far as boxes go, I have good relations with a supplier of the raw materials, and a good friend with the carpentry skills. I can buy the wood myself, glue nails etc, and help him build my boxes saving me much, much money. Even after giving him a few hives and nucs of his own, I will come out well ahead. 

Retirement in ten years? Congrats! If I am feeding, clothing, and housing myself and my family from the bees in 10 years, I will consider myself settled. Retirement without some sort of work lowers life expectancy. 

I wish you the best.


----------



## hedges

GuyDurden said:


> There are so many different opinions and ways of doing things that there are many kinks to work out, things to plan, things to learn how to time out properly.



Someone once said to me "ask 10 different beekeepers a question and you'll get 11 different answers."

That about sums it up for me. Figure out what you want to do, make sure you're being realistic, and TRY IT. All the different opinions are just good for perspective.


----------



## GuyDurden

hedges said:


> Someone once said to me "ask 10 different beekeepers a question and you'll get 11 different answers."
> 
> That about sums it up for me. Figure out what you want to do, make sure you're being realistic, and TRY IT. All the different opinions are just good for perspective.



+1, except I heard (and have experienced) I would get 13 different opinions 

Also, I do appreciate the perspective others give.


----------



## sqkcrk

matt1954 said:


> Mark, my degree is in accounting and law enforcement. I meant 26k profit after all was said and done. (2012) But, as a caveat, I did not figure my hourly rate in there at all. If I had, I am sure I would be in negative numbers. My retirement helps to get us through peaks and valleys. I have no debt, except a house payment.


Thanks for clearing that up. You are doing better than the average bear.


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## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> Thanks for clearing that up. You are doing better than the average bear.


That's for sure! I wonder what percentage of that profit is due to the "package hauling" activity..... I'm thinking substantial.


----------



## matt1954

the package hauling certainly helps. But we also sell our honey at pretty decent prices as well. Let's just say that for March and April I now about every nook and cranny of I-95 between Virginia and Georgia there is.


----------



## gambla

I am really enjoying this thread.

Guy, would you be so kind as to send the spreadsheet to me? Or connect me to the source?

Thx


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## Specialkayme

GuyDurden said:


> If you know where I can get some as early as April, please PM me


NC Ag review would be your best source, in my opinion.



GuyDurden said:


> I have only seen 4 full sized colonies available for sale this season, didn't think there was much supply (near me) for that.


You can get a better deal if you are willing to travel a little. Full sized colonies are available in FL for decent prices. Not many sell full sized hives for sale in this area, unless it's a hobby beekeeper looking to get out.



GuyDurden said:


> I may be misreading, but I thought you (or someone said) that I needed a minimum of 52 hives for a 20/a week operation, and now I knocked it down in half and I'll still need 52?


I was the one that said you need 52 hives for 20 queens a week. If you went with 10 queens a week, you will need less than 52, but not half. Economies of scale start working, and the more you produce the less hives you need per queen.


----------



## GuyDurden

Specialkayme said:


> NC Ag review would be your best source, in my opinion.
> 
> I was the one that said you need 52 hives for 20 queens a week. If you went with 10 queens a week, you will need less than 52, but not half. Economies of scale start working, and the more you produce the less hives you need per queen.



I'll look into the ag review, thanks. 


I can see how the economy of scale would play into it, I wasn't estimating half of 52, which is why I said as many as 50 nucs or as little as fourty, though they would definitely have to build up. I'm going to start feeding pretty soon too, hoping this new queen I got the other day will do as well as expected. I don't think I will be able to produce that many every single week next year, if at all, but hopefully this buying round will help me build up for the following year, and provide enough resources to practice plenty, and hey, if I produce surplus, huzzah. 

I was also thinking about a staggered program. Not producing ten, or 20, or 40 every week, but say 10, 20 or 40, every couple of weeks to allow the ladies to build up. I'll have to time it with drones, and making splits, but hey that's part of the fun. 

Thankfully, this single class I am taking will be over in a week or two, and I will have almost a month before my next semester starts, so I can start to really play with some numbers and ideas. 

You have been really supportive specialK, I appreciate it.


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## sqkcrk

Is a "beek" half a "beekeeper"?


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## Specialkayme

GuyDurden said:


> as many as 50 nucs or as little as fourty


If you truly are planning to purchase 40-50 nucs next year, my hat is off to you, as I wish you the best. Many on here talk about what they will need to do to take the next step, but not too many do it. 

I would like to caution you though, before you drop $5,000-6,500 on nucs (plus another couple hundred in feeding supplies and thousands in woodenware). Managing 50 hives is a different ball park than managing 3 or 10. Just make sure you are prepared for the change in mindset when you make the change in numbers.

But I would have to say you have the right mind set. You understand that its a learning process, which many others don't. The goal your first year is growth. If you get surplus, fantastic. But keeping them alive and having them grow to boot is more important. And I think you get that.

If I were you I'd focus next year more on two things in particular: 1) getting your hives and getting them strong as quick as possible, and 2) grafting & getting acquainted with the cycle of breeding. That's exactly what it is, a cycle. Doing it with one cell builder, one cell finisher, and a hand full of nucs will give you the feel. Staggering when cells go in the builder to when the go to the finisher to when they go in the nucs to when you pluck them and trade them out with new cells makes it a system (kinda like singing "row, row, row your boat" in a round). I don't know if I would jump into a system without having experienced all the components individually. Others opinions may vary.



GuyDurden said:


> You have been really supportive specialK, I appreciate it.


I'm glad I could be of help.


----------



## Specialkayme

sqkcrk said:


> Is a "beek" half a "beekeeper"?


I thought it's what birds had.


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## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> Is a "beek" half a "beekeeper"?


A new Sig for Mark:
*"A Beek is a bird's bill, I am a Beekeeper!"*

Yeah.... that beek stuff bugs me too.....


----------



## GuyDurden

Specialkayme said:


> If you truly are planning to purchase 40-50 nucs next year, my hat is off to you, as I wish you the best. Many on here talk about what they will need to do to take the next step, but not too many do it.
> 
> I would like to caution you though, before you drop $5,000-6,500 on nucs (plus another couple hundred in feeding supplies and thousands in woodenware). Managing 50 hives is a different ball park than managing 3 or 10. Just make sure you are prepared for the change in mindset when you make the change in numbers.
> 
> 
> ..... without having experienced all the components individually. Others opinions may vary.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm glad I could be of help.



Yes, this is definitely going to be a big money pit this first year, and most likely for many years  

I have found a way to save on woodenware, as I have a readily available supply of very affordable cypress. This will help me off-set the cost of building the boxes. I have someone helping me build the hive bodies, in exchange for a few hives. I am very fortunate to know him, and to have this supply of wood. We figured, if we sold 20 hives, built him some (as well as give him a few of my first queens to help him put some hives at in-law's property) it would cover my investment of the wood, his help covers the cost of having hired hands, and the number of hives I could build from 3-4,000 board feet of cypress should more than fill what I will need. Since this is a stable supply, I'll know that I can afford the expansion. The problem is, we figured we could not justify making our own frames, for as cheap as they are to purchase, and for as time consuming it can be to make them, especially since we are building so many other bodies and hive components (tops, bottoms....) So the cost of the frames adds up quickly. 

I think you are spot on with how to run the first year. I'm first figuring how many drone colonies, and how many starters and finishers, nucs, etc i will need. This will help me figure how much feed to buy, and if it's cheaper to run HFCS or straight sugar from box stores. I'm sure the sugar is cheaper, and I am generally opposed to corn products. Just a personal preference, even though I understand the HFCS has a higher solids content. 

Anyway, I agree that I should just try to really get the "cycle" down, as it will help me plan accordingly. But I do like the idea of having everything I would need to produce a set number of nucs and or queens. This gives me a goal, and the number of hives required for when I actually have the skills and experience to produce somewhere near the goal. When I am not producing the number or queens and such, and have these hives laying around, at least I'm building them up for the future. 

As I have learned that the frames will add up, and very quickly, I imagine so will the cost of feed. Luckily, this is the last week of school, so I will have almost a month of nothing before the fall semester to get up to speed. 

I also think you have a good point about mindset. Not only will managing that many hives be totally different than a handful, but will require much more time. I have planned accordingly. Step one was becoming debt free, and staying that way, now it is creating the free time while still being a dad, and feeding my son and I. I think it can be done, as I have done all I can to put myself is the least risky position possible.

Thanks again.


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## delber

Guy, I have also appreciated this thread. It has given me some ideas of what I want and don't want. Just to clear up 2 things if I can. . . First off the thought / advice some pages back of getting a credit card wasn't to go into debt, but to build credit. There is a difference. Some people can't have a credit card because they're not disciplined enough. I understand that, but having one / using one and paying it off every month isn't "going into debt" in the strictest sense. It is for a month, however it's not "debt" because you have it in your account to pay for it all. Having this "credit" on your account will help you down the road to both get supporters or investors or to get a loan if you ever need it. 

The second thought for you is I have been able to take a very small amount (2 frames with bees attached) and start a new hive to overwinter nucs. Overwintered nucs absolutely burst in the spring. I've had great success with them. I also know of one guy in NJ. that sells overwintered nucs so that's another option for purchase for you. So if you're able to get your hives through winter well and start them a little early you can very easily split them just before the main flow and perhaps end up with 15 hives or so. During a flow you don't need to be concerned about robbing because there's too much feed out there for them to bother. (well that's been my experience)


----------



## GuyDurden

delber said:


> Guy, I have also appreciated this thread. It has given me some ideas of what I want and don't want. Just to clear up 2 things if I can. . .
> 
> ..... and start them a little early you can very easily split them just before the main flow and perhaps end up with 15 hives or so. During a flow you don't need to be concerned about robbing because there's too much feed out there for them to bother. (well that's been my experience)


Thanks for reading! I figured out what he meant by that after hearing other people out. It does make good sense to run a business that way, I agree. However, that is not the position I would like to put myself in _just_ yet. In time, this will probably be necessary but I would like to start this without that, with only what I have. The way I see it, is things seem to come up when you put yourself in said position, at least in my life. I think this has to do with the psychology of how _I_ spend. What constitutes allocation of $10, $100, or even a thousand dollars seems to meet criteria much easier when I can "pay for it next month." This is something I will have to work on, personally, but I would also like to do this in a way that I won't owe any money, I would just have to do without or find another means. I hope it makes sense, it's really more of a principle thing really. 

I have really thought about splitting, quite a bit lately. But the problem is, I would like these hives to stay as strong as possible, so that I can have them as an asset next season. It would really speed things up in terms of queen rearing, and allow me to make my own nuc or whatever to replace one I bought that may have failed (one or the other, not both) If I can have a good, strong colony early in the season, this will help me in the long run get ahead on other projects, like said queen rearing. What I have thought about doing, is putting some feed on, moving in another deep, checkerboard, and let them build up a double deep setup in time for overwintering. My theory is this would allow me (after buildup) to either leave on the 2 mediums and 2 deeps, or take one off and replace stores they consume. Something I was tossing around today. I just don't know how well that will work out, as 8 deep frames would take quite a bit to build up. But they are honey and pollen bound right now, and was hoping this would entice the queen to lay where she could and stimulate them to build up, and go into winter with a healthy population and stores. 

I am about to post (maybe) a new thread, or a continuation of this one, that will have much of my plan written out with hard numbers for costs and such. Tell me where you guys think I should put it (here, in this sub forum, or somewhere else entirely, or even not at all  ) and I will check back here before I put it up.


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## sqkcrk

You started this Thread. Do what you want. Post your plans here.


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## delber

GuyDurden said:


> I have really thought about splitting, quite a bit lately. But the problem is, I would like these hives to stay as strong as possible, so that I can have them as an asset next season.


A "strong hive" is a relative thought. You can have a strong 5 frame nuc and you can have a strong 30 frame hive. Both are relative to the box size and entrance size. If you put a 5 frame nuc in 2 deep boxes then you have a seriously weak hive. Put them in a 5 frame nuc box and you have a strong hive with the same ammt. of bees. Michael Palmer started a thread a few years back on overwintering nucs. I'd encourage you to check it out. It helped me gain understanding. You may even be able to do this this year especially since you're in NC. You can use one of your hives as a starter and finisher then split them all up giving them each a ripe cell.


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## Specialkayme

I don't know if I would recommend doing that delber. We have a dearth going on in most of this area now, so drones are being evicted. I've had some problems with queens not properly mating this time of year. Plus, while we are in the south, we still need to have the hives in order by August 15-September 1 in order to get three good brood cycles in place. Doing it next week would be cutting it close.


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## WLC

Guy:

Do you think that it's possible for you to put together a dozen or more colonies ASAP? Otherwise, you might miss the overwintering window and lose a year.

I think that you should reconsider your views on debt and starting a business. It could put you years behind. IMHO.


----------



## delber

Specialkayme said:


> I don't know if I would recommend doing that delber. . . . Doing it next week would be cutting it close.


This is where local advice is often better than even 2 states away. I did that very thing this time last year and the nucs that I made half of them made it to the spring and then in the spring requeened themselves. I did feed the whole time and I gave the nucs frames of capped stores from a strong hive to help them be heavy enough for winter. I had a hive that I was seeing a few weeks ago evicting drones also, but the hive was just about dry on stores. I fed them hard for a week and the eviction stopped and they still have plenty of drones in the hive now. I am by no means commercial so take that for what it's worth also.


----------



## GuyDurden

delber said:


> A "strong hive" is a relative thought. You can have a strong 5 frame nuc and you can have a strong 30 frame hive. Both are relative to the box size and entrance size. ........ You may even be able to do this this year especially since you're in NC. You can use one of your hives as a starter and finisher then split them all up giving them each a ripe cell.


Indeed very relative. I think it would most benefit me in next years actions. Thanks for reading.



Specialkayme said:


> I don't know if I would recommend doing that delber. ...... Plus, while we are in the south, we still need to have the hives in order by August 15-September 1 in order to get three good brood cycles in place. Doing it next week would be cutting it close.


I thought we would be in dearth too, and I guess my specific area sort of is. They quit taking feed, they are all stored up (however, not capped just yet. Maybe a humidity issue) there are tons of drones, no signs of robbing, and they are flying out of the hive in droves. I first thought it was the buckwheat, as some of the stores are dark and I have an acre +/- going on, but the numbers don't add up. Perhaps it is the goldenrod? I still think it is too late to do much manipulating. I took the feed off just a few minutes ago, hoping to clear up some room to lay as about every single cell on every single frame I check (which was allllll of them) was full of either pollen, larvae, capped brood or honey. I don't know where they are flying off too, but they are finding something, some coming back with pollen, they are coming out in such mass that I almost wonder if I should use the bigger side of the entrance reducer, but I will probably leave it. 



WLC said:


> Guy:
> 
> Do you think that it's possible for you to put together a dozen or more colonies ASAP? Otherwise, you might miss the overwintering window and lose a year.
> 
> I think that you should reconsider your views on debt and starting a business. It could put you years behind. IMHO.


I don't think it is plausible to put some hives together just now. I will wait until spring.

I agree that it is good practice to build credit, I may get a credit card once I get all my paperwork in order and start an account under my business, and run it that way, paying things off very shortly after charging the card. 



delber said:


> This is where local advice is often better than even 2 states away. .... still have plenty of drones in the hive now. I am by no means commercial so take that for what it's worth also.


Again, this might work in your area, but in my specific locale, not so much this time of year. I really appreciate your input, and I will try some of the things you mentioned in the spring. 


As far as the plan goes.....

This is a proposed hypothetical plan for starting an apiary without buying a turnkey operation. _Long term_ goals would be primarily production of nucleus colonies and queen production. Let’s start with what is on hand, and then what is needed. 

Current assets include two healthy, relatively strong colonies, both comprised of one deep brood box, and 2 medium supers full of stores and bees. Other assets include enough boxes of both mediums and deeps to start 7 more hives of the same combination, plus 2 extra mediums. Also, 4 propolis traps, fumeboard with fischer beequick, 9 frame extractor, cappings tank, 1 bottling bucket with filters (though honey production is not the primary concern here), a few excluders (which I don't really plan on using much anymore), and 4 hive top feeders. Everything is set up for 8 frame. I of course also have a smoker and jacket, hive tools, and misc items I did not feel was necessary to include at this time. 

Now let’s start with what we need, this will give a general idea for operating capacity, and thus overhead for running this business. This list will be in, well, list form, with prices next to it and a total at the end, instead of just listing off like with assets. 

_Context for prices will be elaborated on later._

In-Frame Feeder, Medium QTY: 60...............................................................$270

600 Assembled Frames, no foundation @ $2.00/pc.....................................$1200

600 Sheets, wire foundation...........................................................................$600

30 3lb packages @$90/pc............................................................................$2700

Hive supplies, for building hives for all these bees+expansion.....................$3000

Feed (Corn Syrup, Brewers yeast, nutes,White tote on hand, food grade)...$1,000

Queen Rearing materials not already purchased.............................................$120

Cardboard nuc boxes QTY: 50.........................................................................$300


Total.............................................................................................(Rounded)..$9200


Some of these prices might look a little funny. For those that look way too expensive, I probably haven’t found the best source. For packages, I am actually getting them cheaper, but with taxes and gas, travel, etc, I rounded up so that in the end, when this gets put in practice I hope to come ahead in some areas to help cover doing worse in others. Foundation and frames, I can’t find cheaper prices. I’ll need more next summer, but this would get me started, because if I need more hopefully that means I’m doing ok and can pay for them out of some cash flow. For example, if I were to be able to produce 8 nucs, that would pay for 600 more sheets of foundation or some more frames. Frames I’m getting for 1.75, but rounded up to $2. 

Hive materials, I have an excellent connection for 4,000 bd/ft of cypress. I calculated in what that is costing me, plus dry kilning (if i decide i need to) and several hundred dollars for hardware cloth and metal tin for roofs, nails, glue, etc. 

Probably the most controversial part of this post will be the absence of the budget for medications. I have money set aside for various emergencies. I plan on allocating $400 for SHB traps, as in this area I have noticed that boxes packed full of bees with these traps in place (the reusable kind with wells in them) tend to do well with this particular issue, as well as most others. So in short, medications will be paid for with an emergency fund I have set aside. I plan on using good practices to prevent issues from starting. Now I understand it would be best to have medications on hand, but it is my personal decision not to. If only a few hives are taken by disease and pest, so be it, it is when most of the hives (a threshold will be set, and a contingency plan put in action) are under “attack” will the plan be put into place. The overall goal is to breed for resistance, and how can that be done while treating everyone at the first sign of a problem? I understand this will take much longer, be very expensive if a problem were to arise, and is very risky, but I feel quite strongly about it. We will have to see how the reality of this actually plays out. I find myself to be adaptive, and if it simply is not working, I will adjust SOP’s accordingly. 

I'm sure there are many things missing, but I figured I would give the basics, and the conversation would develop from there.

Fire away everyone.
opcorn:

:lookout:

:gh:


----------



## Specialkayme

GuyDurden said:


> In-Frame Feeder, Medium QTY: 60...............................................................$270


I hate these things. I know others love them, but the only way you can feed is by cracking open the hive and pouring it in. Open hive + pouring syrup = robbing issues. At least, that's what I saw. I much prefer hive top feeders, specially buckets. No need to buy special ones, you can make your own.



GuyDurden said:


> 30 3lb packages @$90/pc............................................................................$2700


Packages are nice. But at $90 a pop, you are better off going with nucs. If you get a package in mid April, it may take it till June to fully draw out two deep boxes and rebuild hive populations. Then our dearth hits in July. One year wasted. Nucs build much quicker, and at an extra $30 a piece, is cash well spent.



GuyDurden said:


> Hive supplies, for building hives for all these bees+expansion.....................$3000


I don't know what this covers. 



GuyDurden said:


> The overall goal is to breed for resistance, and how can that be done while treating everyone at the first sign of a problem?


Don't take this the wrong way, but this is a good sign of your "youth" in this endeavor.

Read up on breeding and selecting for treats. Marla Spivak says you can't even begin a selection process, at all, unless you have a minimum of 100 colonies. The external genetics flood your system, and you select for genetic bottlenecking. 

But, even apart from that, when you lose colonies (and you will), you won't loose "a few to diseases." You're likely to lose 50-90% of them in a short period of time. Are you ready to walk away from $2,430 you spent on packages? It may not happen the first year, but it will happen. And when you start to loose a few, it's too late. You can't order medications then. They will just be collapsing. I know, I've been there.

Your better bet is to treat for problems while they arise WHILE selecting for resistance. If a hive needs help, don't let it die. Treat, then remove it from the gene pool.


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## sqkcrk

Special, one only needs to open the hive enough to expose the feeder. I do this in yds w/ 80 and more hives and have no robbing. In SC.


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## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> Special, one only needs to open the hive enough to expose the feeder. I do this in yds w/ 80 and more hives and have no robbing. In SC.


I've never had a problem with them either. I think I have used all types and the internal frame feeder is by far the easiest. Special must have run into some kind of unique situation....


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## jim lyon

Sliding a lid over, filling it and reclosing is about a 10 second operation. Few commercials pour feed anymore. Syrup pumps are much less work and far neater. Robbing is only going to be a problem if a weak hive has a leaky or overfilled feeder.


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## Mbeck

I'm not a pro, very far from it.
I'm enjoying the thread and waiting for someone to let the secret to beekeeping wealth slip out!

Just food for thought.

$9200 should buy 60 strong hives ?
$4500 should buy 30+ the equipment feed etc to split them to over 60 ?
Posed as questions.

If your goal is to have 60 hives in one year starting with very little and spending $9200 maybe you should buy them? If you want to learn how to shake packages to grow and split hives maybe you should try a smaller % of packages? Maybe a few packages, a few Nucs, a few single deep hives and a few double deep hives purchased and evenly distributed between 3 or 4 yards would give you the best chance at succeeding and a chance to learn a variety of skills. Maybe each yard could be managed a bit differently and for different outcomes?

Fact: spend $9200.00 on beekeeping you're going to learn something!


----------



## GuyDurden

Specialkayme said:


> I hate these things. I know others love them, but the only way you can feed is by cracking open the hive and pouring it in. Open hive + pouring syrup = robbing issues. At least, that's what I saw. I much prefer hive top feeders, specially buckets. No need to buy special ones........


As always, you have given some realistic advice, and it will not be taken lightly.
I would ideally start with nucs, but I have weighed pros and cons. Firstly, this year I couldn't remember exactly when, but nucs weren't available until _much much_ later than packages. I was already finishing up a deep, about to add a medium. Most of the reasons boiled down to a hard winter because of pest or whatever, and a poor start (we did have a few random late freezes). If I can find nucs earlier next season, I would almost definitely start with those. 

The other benefit I see to packages is the break in the brood cycle of pest. Also, there probably won't be some SHB's hiding in the frames and cardboard nuc box. If I saw quite a few packages with those suckers crawling on them I would refuse. I feel like this might help me a bit keep ailments at bay. 

And with your last bit, you're right. I would need a significantly larger number of hives to take on a decent program to select traits with. I hope that I can help counter act this by giving queens away to people that keep in my area. Of course reading more about the drone congregation areas and such will help me get a feel for how far away I would need to look to help with this problem. 

Also, you really answered my question. If I treated as necessary, and requeened with what I hoped was better genetics I could probably accomplish a great deal. 


I also like the idea a hive top feeder, but far too expensive at this level. The in frame feeder seemed the best economical choice, and while I do not have an electric pump, I can devise another way and have the time to use the less efficient way until I needed the upgrade. 

Thanks again, I always hope for your input.


----------



## GuyDurden

Mbeck said:


> I'm not a pro, very far from it.
> I'm enjoying the thread and waiting for someone to let the secret to beekeeping wealth slip out!
> 
> Just food for thought.....
> 
> .....yards would give you the best chance at succeeding and a chance to learn a variety of skills. Maybe each yard could be managed a bit differently and for different outcomes?
> 
> Fact: spend $9200.00 on beekeeping you're going to learn something!



:lpf: I love your "Fact", I would bet on that being true!

I really really like the idea of diversifying, as to not put all your eggs in one basket. however, I do not like the idea of buying any accompanying problem with the hive. How was the old hive, and it's equipment (and wax) taken care of? What has it been exposed to? How many hive beetles did I miss during a check? This worries me.

Also, I would like to stick to two yards, a smaller one and the main one with most of the hives. (most= 90%+) 

Yea I don't think anyone will give me the secret to wealth, but I'm not looking to drive a Porche. But the conversation this thread has ignited gives me much food for thought that is not acquired while having the seemingly sparse conversations with other beekeepers.


----------



## UTvolshype

Where's the concern about queen genetics? What is your package/nuc/queen sources? What types of queens? What is their pedigree, history of honey production for your location, natural hive mite control, drones present in your yards, etc...
This is a selling point that you must ask yourself before next spring, why would someone want your nucs or queens?


----------



## justin

my experience with packages and caged queens is if you want 30 hives start with 40 or 45 packages. some will be drone layers, some will not be accepted, and others will be queenright colonies that don't grow. even with nucs i'd get 35 if i expected to have 30 colonies. i started with a really sound plan a few years ago, so far between yellowjackets, mites, deep snow, mites, forest fires, and my other jobs the only part of it that has happened is the honey crops. it is no fun replacing colonies. justin


----------



## Seven Hills

3 years ago I decided to do just that, be a commercial beekeeper. Not having a clue how to do that I called a beekeeper and asked him if I could help him. I worked everyday for 2 years working anywhere from 200-700 hives. Seeing loss of over 50 0/0 the very first year and then building them back up to do ok for 6 months or so and then start going back down again was to say the least EDUCATING. Was I really willing to invest $10k on the assumption I could start with 52 hives and by the next year be at 100 with no additional bee purchasing above the 52? Yes but, I felt that the equipment was getting to much attention and taking away time spent taking care and learning beekeeping. I purchased all plastic 10 frame hive bodies from bees forever plastics and plastic frames from Pierco and in hive feeders from mother lode and pallets and lids from a used pallet company that will make them to you specs and VIOLA! You have a hive ready to put bees in without assembling, painting. The time I saved was and still is huge from a commercial standpoint. Back to beekeeping, the things you talk about doing are great but the first year it is all you can do to keep them alive. If you make it through winter with 25%
Loss you will be doing good. It is the most frustrating time knowing that you just spent thousands of dollars and they can die or leave and all that money is gone. It will happen. More so if you are in over your head. My advice to you is find a beekeeper who could use a hand lifting 70 or 80 lb boxes for free and if you can keep his bees alive for a year you might have a chance with your own. You need to work with 100 plus hives for awhile. It is hard.
I have even extremely lucky thus far but am sure will have bumps along the way. I was paid for pollinated with 56 hives of the 64 I started with April 2012, and have built up to 110 today. It can be done and it is wonderful.


----------



## sqkcrk

Mbeck said:


> I'm not a pro, very far from it.
> I'm enjoying the thread and waiting for someone to let the secret to beekeeping wealth slip out!


Work as hard as your bees.


----------



## sqkcrk

Guy,
You should be looking for nucs to get in the Spring now.

I seriously suggest you not worry about genetics at this time, unless you happen to be able to buy nucs w/ a queen type that you prefer.

I keep answering the question about preference by replying "Alive", but if I have my choice I prefer live Carniolans. Can't really say why. But I haven't purchased many the last few years because I have purchased queens cells and inexpensive and available queens. I haven't gotten into ordering well in advanced like other/smarter beekeepers do.

Nucs made in SC have few if any SHB. If you are buying packages to avoid SHB I think you are sacrificing the benefit of the nuc for the benefit of fewer SHB. I don't know if that is worth it.

If you only have a "small" number of hives I wouldn't invest in a feeding system. A 5 gallon fuel can is cheap. I still use one when I only want to feed a small number of hives, even though I have a feeder pump system.


----------



## sqkcrk

Ever thought about leasing bees? Is where u r a good honey producing area?


----------



## hpm08161947

Worry less about SHB and more about mites. You will not see many SHB in a NUC. Just think about those 4-5 combs you will get with a NUC.... not easy to come by for a newbee. Our best market for NUCs is newbees who have purchased packages.


----------



## sqkcrk

When r your nucs available?


----------



## BeeCurious

I think the following should be considered:


Posted on July 8th


GuyDurden said:


> Currently, I have three hives, and one is about to split (It has done ridiculously well,




Posted on July 31st


GuyDurden said:


> Current assets include two healthy, "relatively" strong colonies,


In a matter of 23 days you went from having three hives, one of which was very strong to now having two relatively strong colonies. 

So, at a minimum, you have 33% fewer colonies than you had three weeks ago... (You almost had four.) 

:scratch:

Why do have few colonies, and what percentage of winter losses are you anticipating?


----------



## GuyDurden

BeeCurious said:


> I think the following should be considered:
> 
> 
> Posted on July 8th
> 
> 
> 
> Posted on July 31st
> 
> In a matter of 23 days you went from having three hives, one of which was very strong to now having two relatively strong colonies.
> 
> So, at a minimum, you have 33% fewer colonies than you had three weeks ago... (You almost had four.)
> 
> :scratch:
> 
> Why do have few colonies, and what percentage of winter losses are you anticipating?


The other two are not on my land. They are on a friend's, and after recent events I consider them hers. We split, and I told her dad not to feed them, well, he fed them with honeybee healthy added, they got robbed out. Well, this queen is banging out some eggs, so they have recouped, but still arent quite as far along as they woulda been. I came over one day during the middle of the rob. Took off the feeder, and the top of the other hive. It stopped and since he hasn't added feed since, they are still doing pretty well considering. The mother hive they came from is just a monster hive. It's jam packed, and stacked up. It is still doing very well. 

Those two hives i am not considering part of this operation. The two hives on my land are part of the operation. 

hope that clears it up for you.


----------



## merince

Guy,



First, thank you for starting this thread and thank you to all who have contributed! This thread has an amazing amount of knowledge.



I want to share my experience from this year and last year. 

Last year, I started with 2 hives and got 2 packages. By August, both packages had 2 deeps + 1 deep of surplus that I pulled. In September, I had 11 hives. 5 in double deeps and the rest in singles. By May this year I had 4 double deeps.



I decided to buy 6 packages, so I could raise some queens while producing some honey from my original 4. I got the packages in early May (2 weeks after my expected delivery date). All of them were installed on built comb in 1 deep. Each had 2 combs of honey + sugar syrup.

To keep it short:


2 of the queens were DOA. The package supplier was only able to replace 1 and she was damaged. When she was finally released, she did not lay for 2 weeks and could never straighten out. She always looked like she is still in the circular cage. As soon as started laying, she was superceded.

1 was drone layer.

1 was a very weak layer and never made it beyond 4-5 frames of brood.

Bottom line is that the 2 "good" packages had to carry the 4 bad ones and they weren't in a condition for splits until end of June/beginning of July. If you get the same with 30 packages, you'll have 10 functioning out of 30 and it will be worse, because they will have to draw out foundation to boot.


----------



## Nature Coast beek

Keep your receipts....ALL OF THEM....then be surprised at how much "off the ball" expenses there really are in beekeeping, let alone commercial beekeeping. The $175 per hive number per year may sound high, but from what I've found out it's pretty accurate thus far. I'd say it's a good, "safe" metric to use (of course scale and efficiency gains will bring it down). $175 per year only sounds high to a person that puts no value on time!


----------



## GuyDurden

sqkcrk said:


> Guy,
> You should be looking for nucs to get in the Spring now.
> 
> I seriously suggest you not worry about genetics at this time, unless you happen to be able to buy nucs w/ a queen type that you prefer.
> 
> .............. of hives I wouldn't invest in a feeding system. A 5 gallon fuel can is cheap. I still use one when I only want to feed a small number of hives, even though I have a feeder pump system.


I most likely will not be getting a pump system this year. I have entertained the idea of a 5gal bucket on top, the in frames were a starting point. 

I will be getting my packages the first of march. I just figured the time gain would compensate for the iffy nuc availability dates that seem to be a trend. 



sqkcrk said:


> So, since you started this Thread you have split from your girl friend w/ the T-shirt business?


No. Split the hive. The t-shirt business is mine, regardless of relationship status. I don't understand the relevance, other than possible "disposable" income to fund this venture.



BeeCurious said:


> As a hobbyist, my "assets" include 7 hives, 15 nucs, 5 queen castles, additional boxes, frames and feeders.
> 
> Using the term "operation", when you have one or two hives seems a little grandiose in my opinion.


I am so sorry if I offended you because of the semantics of this. "operation" is refering to what it will become. If you would like to spend another 15 pages arguing semantics of this nature, feel free, but I am not going to participate any further in that argument. I'm not here to entertain what seems to be trolling and sidetracking. 

As for everyone else, perhaps I should start a thread that elaborates the fact that I do not have the gonads to take risk or the work ethic to attempt to make something of my life in this field. If I was overly concerned with risk, I would bank my savings and get a desk job, factory work, box store, what have you and hope that taking that risk wouldn't screw me in the long run because the business went under, the economy crashed, I got cancer, or depressed and suicidal because I never pursued a dream because a bunch of people on the internet tell me how much work this all is and how risky it is, and yet find the free time to troll the idea of starting what other people are already doing. 

I'm not talking about the posts that are trying to give me a dose of "reality", those are _*highly*_ appreciated, but there seems to be much friction and I am past the point of caring why, if this is taking so much time away from you and your loved ones, one would still find the time to hassle someone, on the internet. Maybe that time should be spent working on a more positive attitude that would hopefully reflect in your business ventures and personal life. I refuse to be a virtual punching bag because I have a dream I want to pursue. 

Maybe after so many beestings one becomes quite ornery. There should be a study on this. 



merince said:


> Guy,
> 
> 
> 
> First, thank you for starting this thread and thank you to all who have contributed! This thread has an amazing amount of knowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> ..... is that the 2 "good" packages had to carry the 4 bad ones and they weren't in a condition for splits until end of June/beginning of July. If you get the same with 30 packages, you'll have 10 functioning out of 30 and it will be worse, because they will have to draw out foundation to boot.


This is a good point. My mentor has been getting his packages from this guy in GA I believe for quite some time, and has had much higher success rates than what I'm continuously being told. That's not to say there are many variables at play here. Also, with that being said, I fully expect to replace at least 50% of a mix of either queens or entire colonies. 

Thank you for sharing and positivity.


----------



## sqkcrk

This past March in SC the weather was crappy for the whole month practically. I would be careful about getting packages delivered March 1st. Be prepared to feed them for sure. Having not dealt w/ packages I am somewhat surprised they are available that early. Earlier than queens usually are available, unless they are from Hawaii. The queens that is. Is that when your Mentor gets his packages?


----------



## GuyDurden

He gets them from a guy in georgia. Not sure how they are ready so early. I will feed them gratuitously for sure. I am a tad weary of packages that early, for reasons other that just chillbrood and feeding costs, but its an option I'm considering.


----------



## GuyDurden

sqk, 

def worth considering.


----------



## GuyDurden

merince said:


> Guy,
> 
> 
> 
> First, thank you for starting this thread and thank you to all who have contributed! This thread has an amazing amount of knowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> I want to share my experience from this year and last year.
> 
> ..., you'll have 10 functioning out of 30 and it will be worse, because they will have to draw out foundation to boot.


Hey and thanks for reading. Have you tried starting with similar numbers with nucs? how did that fare? 

The other option is starting with nucs a bit later, but I'm trying to figure out how to feel for the approx availability. I'm also weighing in the fact I feel like I'm bringing any problem with a small hive transported back to mine. 

I feel like in the long run, I'll start with a mix a whatever availability is best, long run. I'm crunching in numbers for various mixes and seeing how the numbers play out. Hopefully if I can find a good mix it will give me wiggle room for a bare necessity "med box" for emergencies. Found a good source of frames and foundation, so saved a bit there. 

Thanks again!



Nature Coast beek said:


> Keep your receipts....ALL OF THEM........ I'd say it's a good, "safe" metric to use (of course scale and efficiency gains will bring it down). $175 per year only sounds high to a person that puts no value on time!


:thumbsup:


----------



## sqkcrk

Check Matt's Thread on 2014 Packages and Nucs.


----------



## Specialkayme

sqkcrk said:


> one only needs to open the hive enough to expose the feeder.


When they are empty, you know they are empty, and you are just filling them up. Not so quick when you are working more than just a single (i.e. a double or a double with a medium) and the feeder is in the bottom box. Alot more to move and expose. Then you get down there and find some dead bees in the feeder, or some of the sugar water crystallized (or wasn't mixed properly in the first place), or they didn't finish the old syrup and now it's gone bad. What then? I'm sure you've tried to pull a 1.5 gallon frame feeder, 3/4 full, out of a hive before. Not an easy task without ending up with syrup everywhere. 

I realize I might be in the minority here. Frame feeders are a tried and true method of commercial feeding. I just don't like them. For the price, I can get a bucket feeder much cheaper. I can fill it up behind closed doors, with zero robbing issue. I don't need to open up the hive to feed (which is important in the very early spring months), and more importantly I don't need to open up the hive to find out if their feed is gone. I can stand in the yard and look at 25 hives and see which one needs feed and which one doesn't. If they don't take all the syrup, and the feeder needs to be cleaned out, it's simple. Just replace with a new $1 bucket and go wash it out. Buckets easily stack at the end of the feeding time, and don't take up precious space inside the box.

Just my take on it.


----------



## Specialkayme

GuyDurden said:


> this year I couldn't remember exactly when, but nucs weren't available until _much much_ later than packages.


Nucs aren't commercially produced like packages are in this area. People will drive down to GA to get a truck load of packages and sell them off early in the season. For some reason, no one does that with nucs. I know it's more common in CA, with splitting out of Almonds and all, but it just isn't as common here. 

That being said, you can get an overwintered nuc sooner than you can get a package. You just won't be able to order them en mass from one person, and you have to get your order in soon.



GuyDurden said:


> I also like the idea a hive top feeder, but far too expensive at this level.


I wasn't referring to the hive top feeder you can buy from Mann Lake. I was referring to a $1 bucket you buy from a dollar store with a few holes drilled in the center, placed over an inner cover (or a hole cut in a migratory cover). By far much cheaper than in frame feeders.


----------



## sqkcrk

Specialkayme said:


> When they are empty, you know they are empty, and you are just filling them up. Not so quick when you are working more than just a single (i.e. a double or a double with a medium) and the feeder is in the bottom box. Alot more to move and expose. Then you get down there and find some dead bees in the feeder, or some of the sugar water crystallized (or wasn't mixed properly in the first place), or they didn't finish the old syrup and now it's gone bad. What then? I'm sure you've tried to pull a 1.5 gallon frame feeder, 3/4 full, out of a hive before. Not an easy task without ending up with syrup everywhere.
> 
> I realize I might be in the minority here. Frame feeders are a tried and true method of commercial feeding. I just don't like them. For the price, I can get a bucket feeder much cheaper. I can fill it up behind closed doors, with zero robbing issue. I don't need to open up the hive to feed (which is important in the very early spring months), and more importantly I don't need to open up the hive to find out if their feed is gone. I can stand in the yard and look at 25 hives and see which one needs feed and which one doesn't. If they don't take all the syrup, and the feeder needs to be cleaned out, it's simple. Just replace with a new $1 bucket and go wash it out. Buckets easily stack at the end of the feeding time, and don't take up precious space inside the box.
> 
> Just my take on it.


To each his own. Your points are valid. Having frame feeders in hives requires some organization and forethought. In anticipation of feeding the box w/ the feeder in it should be on top. One guy I know runs a deep and a medium, so it's easy to know which box has the feeder in it.

As to old feed or water in the feeder, tip the whole hive forward to dump the liquid out before filling.

It isn't a perfect system but it works well and you don't have to carry all of those buckets around. You don't have to chase empty buckets blown over the fence after being empty.

Whatever floats your boat.


----------



## Specialkayme

sqkcrk said:


> As to old feed or water in the feeder, tip the whole hive forward to dump the liquid out before filling.


And still no robbing or yellow jacket issues?



sqkcrk said:


> It isn't a perfect system but it works well and you don't have to carry all of those buckets around. You don't have to chase empty buckets blown over the fence after being empty.


Nothing in beekeeping is a perfect system. If it was, there would only be one way of doing things.

I just put a brick on top of the bucket. No need to chase things. But it does require carrying buckets around. But I guess you would have to carry SOMETHING around the yard to fill the frame feeders. If that's a pump system, you are trucking in your tote and carrying around a hose. Trucking in buckets that are pre-filled seems just as much work, no more no less.

But yeah, whatever floats your boat. I'm sure you've filled WAY more feeders than I.


----------



## merince

Guy:

I haven't attempted the same with nucs. Before this spring, I (and everybody using this supplier) had excellent luck with his packages. I wanted bees to create my own nucs. My queens have been good producers and as of today, they have been 4 years continuously without treatments and have wintered successfully. Now, before anyone points out the 4/11 survival disaster, I want to say that was 100% beekeeper error.

My plan was to get the packages and use them to rear my own queens. I planned on delays in delivery (which happened). What I did not plan on was 3 weeks of overnight lows in the low 30s and highs under 50s that started when I got the packages. With a weather pattern like that you are pretty much guaranteed to lose packages. This, of course led to a lack of available queens. At the time, expected ship dates were at a minimum a month out. My best choice at the time was to give them eggs, close them up and let them figure it out.

I wanted to share this story, so you can develop a contingency plan. If you are planning on installing 30 packages and putting 10,000 and you have a very short flow followed by dearth, may be you should invest some time in getting some comb drawn. May be your plan needs to be a 2 year plan instead of 1 year. First year, get 10 packages and get all your comb drawn. Second year, get the next 20 and get your queen rearing in place. This will let you stack the odds in your favor and spread your risk. Thoughts?


----------



## sqkcrk

Specialkayme said:


> And still no robbing or yellow jacket issues?
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing in beekeeping is a perfect system. If it was, there would only be one way of doing things.
> 
> I just put a brick on top of the bucket. No need to chase things. But it does require carrying buckets around. But I guess you would have to carry SOMETHING around the yard to fill the frame feeders. If that's a pump system, you are trucking in your tote and carrying around a hose. Trucking in buckets that are pre-filled seems just as much work, no more no less.
> 
> But yeah, whatever floats your boat. I'm sure you've filled WAY more feeders than I.


When r u feeding that u have yellow jacket issues? I feed late Fall and early Spring, after and before yellow jackets are active.

How many hives r u feeding? I have a 700 hive beekeeper who does what you do. I'm just trading stories w/ you so others can see the plusses and minuses. Thanks for engaging w/ me.


----------



## hpm08161947

Specialkayme said:


> And still no robbing or yellow jacket issues?
> 
> 
> 
> .


Must be something unique about those Greensboro bees... I dumpem just like Mark and still no robbing issues.

Mark is mobile and you are immobile, that probably gives you more options on how you want to feed.


----------



## sqkcrk

Yeah, I'd have to tote a bundle or two of brick to SC and back to NY or have two sets.


----------



## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> When r u feeding that u have yellow jacket issues? I feed late Fall and early Spring, after and before yellow jackets are active.
> 
> .


No nectar here in NC during July/Aug.... if we take the honey we have to feed... so yes... the yellow jackets are out. But any self-respecting hive can take care of them....


----------



## Specialkayme

sqkcrk said:


> When r u feeding that u have yellow jacket issues?


As was stated, July/August are usually the yellow jacket issue times. That's also our dearth.

Any "self-respecting hive" can take care of the yellow jackets, and most strong colonies can take care of the robbing, but if there is something else stressing them (SHB, Varroa, the temps don't help, mammals, queen issues, late season swarms/splits, mild to moderate pesticide exposure), the yellow jackets and/or the robbing can cause a hive or nuc to throw in the towel and call it quits (abscond, or dwindle to nothing).



sqkcrk said:


> How many hives r u feeding?


usually 10-25. Not many.

I have appreciated this back and forth. Very helpful.


----------



## Specialkayme

hpm08161947 said:


> Must be something unique about those Greensboro bees...


Maybe. I had similar issues around Cary, NC. But I had no such issues in Raleigh. SE Greensboro is horrible. I've lost many a hive & nuc to robbing issues in July and early August in years past. Only lost 3 this year, but not due to robbing (late season swarms that the queen failed to mate properly).


----------



## sqkcrk

Specialkayme said:


> As was stated, July/August are usually the yellow jacket issue times. That's also our dearth.


Isle of NY!! or I <3 NY!

How come there isn't a heart in the icon options?


----------



## Roland

Sorry Sqkcrk, we also use feeder(2 gallon) pails. Our terrain can get slippery in the fall and spring. It is easier to schlep a bunch of pails than a tote and a pump. That said,I am thinking of other options, like a 4 gallon pail or ? to eliminate one trip.

All our hives have a concrete hive weight, with a wite handle, no blown pails here. yes, you would need twive if you migrated, so I see the advantage of the in hive feeders, no pails and weights to transport.

Crazy Roland


----------



## GuyDurden

merince said:


> Guy,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> merince said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guy:
> 
> I haven't attempted the same with nucs.
> 
> I wanted to share this story, so you can develop a contingency plan. If you are planning on installing 30 packages and putting 10,000 and you have a very short flow followed by dearth, may be you should invest some time in getting some comb drawn. May be your plan needs to be a 2 year plan instead of 1 year. First year, get 10 packages and get all your comb drawn. Second year, get the next 20 and get your queen rearing in place. This will let you stack the odds in your favor and spread your risk. Thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> Your experience is definitely worth taking into account. I hear horror stories like this all too often. The March packages scare me. I'm not sure how they would fare if we have a 2014 early spring like we had this year. My only hopes to help with this is to put them into nuc boxes from the beginning, and hope that a narrower space does better than dumping them into an eight frame. I planned on doing this anyway.
> 
> I do worry that I would be getting poorly mated queens, or last years queens that have been through who knows what. Also, if we get a chill, not only will it slow down brood building, but if it dips too low, too late, like this year, chillbrood will make us start over pretty much. The strong will survive I guess. :/
> 
> My thoughts are, to start with a mix I suppose. Get some packages early, some later, and some nucs ASAP. Nucs just worried me because of the issues people had with them this year, and the fact that I was canceled on way too many time for my pick up appointment. Our packages this year far out performed our nucs, regardless of source (of the nuc), at least in my circles.
> 
> But I am also going to look for the thread that sqkcrk mentioned. This plan will probably change 100xs between now and action time. I just like the conversation. It's like a thinking out loud thread, for me.
> 
> This pretty much is a 4 year plan anyway, In reality, I don't plan on accomplishing much other than learning and getting a "groove" on this next season. Any extra will be taken as a blessing.
> 
> Thanks mucho for your opinion.
Click to expand...


----------



## GuyDurden

hpm08161947 said:


> No nectar here in NC during July/Aug.... if we take the honey we have to feed... so yes... the yellow jackets are out. .


this reminded me, when I walked up on my hives the other day, there had to be 100 yellow jackets just as I entered the bee yard. My heart dropped. Then I noticed, they weren't after my hives, but a small group of web-worms, just devastating them. It was crazy. They have seemed to leave my colonies alone.

But also, about the nectar flow...

In davidson, and some parts of randolph and guilford, they are getting something. Not just pollen. I have looked at several hives that were hustling off to somewhere. Some were coming back with 2 types of easily distinguishable pollen, but I'm not sure what it is. One is a nice bright yellow, and the other is "construction worker vest" burnt neon orange, if that makes sense. I saw it in the early spring, but there is much more of it coming in now. They are also building a bit of comb, and storing some nectar. Don't know what it could be, as these hives aren't being fed yet. Thinking some of it at least is golden rod I have noticed them working on my land, and blooming well. But I don't know what else it could be. Any idea?

I know a fall flow is rare around here as well, so it would be interesting to know what it is when it does happen. Thanks


----------



## delber

I only saw one goldenrod plant blooming last week. Are you sure that is blooming down there? If this is the case to me this seems very early. What do you all think about that? If this causes an early fall flow what problems would this cause?


----------



## Specialkayme

I haven't seen any goldenrod yet this year. Doesn't mean it isn't out there, but if it's blooming now it's not that far off schedule

http://www.ncbeekeepers.org/piedmont.php


----------



## GuyDurden

delber said:


> I only saw one goldenrod plant blooming last week. Are you sure that is blooming down there? If this is the case to me this seems very early. What do you all think about that? If this causes an early fall flow what problems would this cause?


Not certain what an early fall bloom would cause. But I think the reason you may not being seeing golden rod the same time as I is our distance apart, you are quite a bit north of me. 



Specialkayme said:


> I haven't seen any goldenrod yet this year. Doesn't mean it isn't out there, but if it's blooming now it's not that far off schedule
> 
> http://www.ncbeekeepers.org/piedmont.php


Yea, I went driving around today looking. We have several hundred acres behind us mix field and wooded. I drove the perimeter, and saw *quite* a bit of golden rod starting to bloom. Saw some sumac blooming as well. 

Also noticed they seemed to have planted 40+ acres of what looks to be soy approx 2 miles from me. But it is not in bloom.


----------



## delber

You are right Guy. Our spring blooms are after yours and our fall blooms are before yours which is why I said that about goldenrod. I haven't been paying attention to it around here. I saw that one and was surprised. I'm surprised to see on that chart that it says August bloom for goldenrod in NC. Around here it seems that it's late August at the earliest. Now last year just when it was getting going we had 2 hard frosts and that pretty much put an end to that.


----------



## GuyDurden

I hate those surprise frosts. Messed up my apple, peaches, and apricots this year. Bleh!


----------



## Specialkayme

Saw some goldenrod in bloom today. There's a big patch of it behind my back yard that isn't in bloom. But a few miles away in ditches I saw a plant here and there that was blooming.

Goldenrod is extremely hit or miss around here. Some years you can get a half a super or more per hive. Some years they collect just enough to feed to young. Here's hoping for a hit year.


----------



## GuyDurden

Specialkayme said:


> Here's hoping for a hit year.


:thumbsup:

I went around looking today. Quite a bit of it is blooming, but not all of it. I went to four patches I've been keeping my eye on since I first saw it starting up. All are within forage range, and all of them (even the farthest) was being work by at least someone's honey bees. I sat and watched each patch for a few, and some bees were heading back with pollen, and some not. I assume the ones that aren't are going to get more pollen elsewhere or are coming back with at least a bit of nectar. 

The foragers returning to my hives with pollen have slowed down, most of them are returning seemingly empty as far as pollen (easiest to observe), and are leaving and coming back in droves. I'm hoping the wet year we've had might help a fall flow.

I also added empty deeps to my hives, checkered in, and started feeding thin. They aren't taking much at all, much slower than 2 weeks ago when I fed them some to "boost". But they have built up quite a bit on the foundation. 

Hope everyone else is doing well too!


----------



## MikeTheBeekeeper

I'm late to this thread but I'm kind of in the same situation.

Currently I have 101 hives but only about 40 of those are in good condition (the rest are splits I made last week and are in Nuc condition, 4 frame average of bees).

I don't have many hives at all but for one person it's quite a bit. It's a lot of time I put in (assembling boxes, making covers, painting, checking them, feeding them, splitting, etc.).

But in money (so far) it's only $65 a hive, that's with new equipment, new queens, food, additional supplements, etc. 

From Almonds I'm expecting $150 a hive (or at least working towards that; 8 frame minimum requirement). And there's other crops that pay around $100 a hive, plus honey (maybe another $100, or more if you sell at retail price). It's hard yes but it pays well if you do it right.


----------



## Keith Jarrett

MikeTheBeekeeper said:


> And there's other crops that pay around $100 a hive, plus honey .


What type of crops would those be Mike?


----------



## johnbeejohn

golden rod has been blooming for two weeks that I have seen just seen some 3 hours ago not blooming yet but soon


----------



## MikeTheBeekeeper

Blueberries, and cranberries are two crops I know pay well.


----------



## Honey-4-All

Keith Jarrett said:


> What type of crops would those be Mike?



Great question Keith. 

The only thing that I know will pay Mike his $100 other than almonds ( or similar time frame) and still be in this guys back yard is if can convince the local "mota in the meadow" grower that his "weeds" will grow a little "higher" if he chooses to utilize bees for "pollination". Maybe he can share crop and push even the profit margin beyond $100 a hive. Otherwise he might as well keep "dreaming. " I agree that it "ain't out there" as is inferred by your question.

BTW he might want to consider dumping about 25 pounds of sub on top of those recent splits. With the current conditions he is unlikely to get them to 8 frames by February unless $50 or more of "love" get tossed on those hives between now and then.


----------



## MikeTheBeekeeper

Eh, not sure if $50 but I will buy more feed. All the queens are laying (a lot) and some (stronger splits I made) are already on 8 frames. In about two weeks I may borrow some frames (w/ brood and bees) from my stronger hives to the splits. I'm not sure, of course, but I think they'll be almond-worthy by February.


----------



## Tim Ives

hpm08161947 said:


> Did you get a big honey crop off those Blueberrys? Seems like I remember feeding them a little syrup
> 
> I've never seen blueberries produce a honey crop to speak of. Guess they do get some pollen.


Got to have bees strong enough to put up blueberry blossom. I averaged 90# on them about the same
As the ones in the Apple orchards.


----------



## Tim Ives

sqkcrk said:


> Work as hard as your bees.


If you just work as hard as your bees, you'll fall behind. Pretty much have to stay busier than a bee, or they'll find some other place.


----------



## hpm08161947

Tim Ives said:


> Got to have bees strong enough to put up blueberry blossom. I averaged 90# on them about the same
> As the ones in the Apple orchards.


How strong would they have to be? 12 Frames?


----------



## Tim Ives

hpm08161947 said:


> How strong would they have to be? 12 Frames?


12frames? LOL.... The smallest hive I moved was 3 deep/2 med. Can't take the supers off, bees won't fit. 40-50# of bees don't fit to well in 30# space.


----------



## Tim Ives

If there's only 12 frames of bees in a hive by the time Apples start blooming there's something wrong with that hive.


----------



## Oldtimer

How do you move them?


----------



## sqkcrk

Tim Ives said:


> Got to have bees strong enough to put up blueberry blossom. I averaged 90# on them about the same
> As the ones in the Apple orchards.


Where and when and was there anything else around where the blueberrys were grown? How many acres of blueberries were your hives on or near? Where I pollinated blueberries the last two years there isn't anything else for them to work on and they tend to go backwards, loss weight.

Blueberries in NC bloom in March and April for about 4 to 6 weeks. I don't know anyone who makes honey on those locations downeast in NC. Not even a beekeeper whose hives are usually better than mine.


----------



## Tim Ives

Oldtimer said:


> How do you move them?


Still haven't looked at my FB page. Bobcat


----------



## sqkcrk

Tim Ives said:


> If there's only 12 frames of bees in a hive by the time Apples start blooming there's something wrong with that hive.


How do you measure 12 frames of bees? Do you mean 12 frames covered in bees? Or 12 frames of capped brood?


----------



## Tim Ives

sqkcrk said:


> Where and when and was there anything else around where the blueberrys were grown? How many acres of blueberries were your hives on or near? Where I pollinated blueberries the last two years there isn't anything else for them to work on and they tend to go backwards, loss weight.
> 
> Blueberries in NC bloom in March and April for about 4 to 6 weeks. I don't know anyone who makes honey on those locations downeast in NC. Not even a beekeeper whose hives are usually better than mine.


I think you need to look at my YouTube hives again. How much backwards do you think them hives are going to go???


----------



## sqkcrk

Oldtimer said:


> How do you move them?


Vewwy cawwfuwee Doc. heh,heh 

I wondered that too. A hive that tall I would wonder why one would move it.


----------



## sqkcrk

Tim Ives said:


> Still haven't looked at my FB page. Bobcat


No, I haven't. I didn't know you had palletized hives. I thought all of yours were individual hives.

Do you get paid much more than others w/ shorter hives?


----------



## sqkcrk

Tim Ives said:


> I think you need to look at my YouTube hives again. How much backwards do you think them hives are going to go???


Tim, ole buddy , I haven't looked at all of your Youtube hives, only seen ones that were individual hives and 8 feet tall. Are those the ones you are refering to?

I didn't say your hives were or would go backwards. I was writing about hives in NC blueberry farms.


----------



## Tim Ives

sqkcrk said:


> No, I haven't. I didn't know you had palletized hives. I thought all of yours were individual hives.
> 
> Do you get paid much more than others w/ shorter hives?


Nope same rate.... I just get more honey. Would I want to be putting them on a big rig. Nope....


----------



## sqkcrk

Gotta Link to your hives in Blueberries?


----------



## sqkcrk

Tim Ives said:


> Nope same rate.... I just get more honey. Would I want to be putting them on a big rig. Nope....


I haul mine 100 miles on my F-450. Have to make a cpl trips. If I had a big rig I would use it. Why wouldn't you? If you were moving enough to fill it.


----------



## Tim Ives

sqkcrk said:


> Tim, ole buddy , I haven't looked at all of your Youtube hives, only seen ones that were individual hives and 8 feet tall. Are those the ones you are refering to?
> 
> I didn't say your hives were or would go backwards. I was writing about hives in NC blueberry farms.


Correct on colony size. I have to shake bees out of supers before moving.


----------



## hpm08161947

Tim Ives said:


> Nope same rate.... I just get more honey. Would I want to be putting them on a big rig. Nope....


How many hives do you place per acre in these blueberry fields?


----------



## Tim Ives

sqkcrk said:


> I haul mine 100 miles on my F-450. Have to make a cpl trips. If I had a big rig I would use it. Why wouldn't you? If you were moving enough to fill it.


True... I was thinking wouldnt be double stacking.


----------



## Tim Ives

hpm08161947 said:


> How many hives do you place per acre in these blueberry fields?


30 hives on 15 acres.


----------



## hpm08161947

Tim Ives said:


> 30 hives on 15 acres.


That is pretty dense.... that would be like... Mark putting 400 hives on Sam's place (a BB farm Mark and I know).

Are we talking Commercial Blueberries.... Rabbitseye....


----------



## WLC

Gee fellas, what's 30 X 90# X $2 (or more)?

Like $5400...

He's smarter than he looks.


----------



## Tim Ives

hpm08161947 said:


> That is pretty dense.... that would be like... Mark putting 400 hives on Sam's place (a BB farm Mark and I know).
> 
> Are we talking Commercial Blueberries.... Rabbitseye....


Different high bush varieties.


----------



## Tim Ives

WLC said:


> Gee fellas, what's 30 X 90# X $2 (or more)?
> 
> Like $5400...
> 
> He's smarter than he looks.



Ummm....don't forget the double premium... 1) I'm TF and 2) certified organic USDA blueberry fields..


----------



## hpm08161947

Tim Ives said:


> Ummm....don't forget the double premium... 1) I'm TF and 2) certified organic USDA blueberry fields..


Is this honey marketed as TF Natural (Organic) Blueberry honey?? If so that must bring quiet a premium.


----------



## sqkcrk

Do you market the honey produced while 30 hives are on 15 acres of blueberries as Blueberry Honey? What w/ all the other thousands of acres there are for them to forage on at that same time?


----------



## Tim Ives

hpm08161947 said:


> Is this honey marketed as TF Natural (Organic) Blueberry honey?? If so that must bring quiet a premium.



Yep... Customers know me and exactly where it came from..

The Polly fee is nothing compared to the honey sales.


----------



## Tim Ives

sqkcrk said:


> Do you market the honey produced while 30 hives are on 15 acres of blueberries as Blueberry Honey? What w/ all the other thousands of acres there are for them to forage on at that same time?


The extractor smells like a blueberries......


----------



## WLC

Let me fly this up the flagpole and see if Tim salutes.

Tim:

Are your bees so afraid of smoke that you can chase them out the front of the hive if you smoke them from above?

Ferals sometimes have that trait.

Imagine if you had wire clothe venetian blinds on the top and bottom of a body or two.

You could smoke em down and take off the supers for transport after you've closed the blinds (in the right sequence, of course). Then you just reassemble it all, and open the blinds when ready to 'pollinate'.

That's one characteristic of ferals that I haven't heard has been used to advantage by anyone.


----------



## Tim Ives

sqkcrk said:


> Do you market the honey produced while 30 hives are on 15 acres of blueberries as Blueberry Honey? What w/ all the other thousands of acres there are for them to forage on at that same time?


Same with the Apple blossom, smells like green Apples when extracting.
But that orchard isn't organic.. they use Assail 3 times a year.


----------



## sqkcrk

Tim Ives said:


> The extractor smells like a blueberries......


Do you know what craneberry honey would look like and taste like? I have 48 buckets of dark honey off of two yds and all of the honey off of the other 10 yds is white. One of the two yds is located on 80 acres of craneberries and the second yd is three miles away.


----------



## Tim Ives

sqkcrk said:


> Do you know what craneberry honey would look like and taste like? I have 48 buckets of dark honey off of two yds and all of the honey off of the other 10 yds is white. One of the two yds is located on 80 acres of craneberries and the second yd is three miles away.


No don't know what cranberry blossom honey looks or taste like. But would say its darker.


----------



## sqkcrk

My bees must not work fruitbloom that they are supposed to, or at least don't make any honey off of the fruit bloom they are working. I have never gotten any honey from hives in apple orchards. Certainly never noticed the extractor smelling like blueberries, cranberries or apples.

Saying that, there isn't much else around where the cranberry beds are, but bees do fly. It certainly could be that the bees are flying out of sight to knapweed, I guess. Japanese knotweed wasn't in bloom when this honey was made. I'm gonna have to ask the cranberry grower when his plants were in bloom.


----------



## Tim Ives

sqkcrk said:


> My bees must not work fruitbloom that they are supposed to, or at least don't make any honey off of the fruit bloom they are working. I have never gotten any honey from hives in apple orchards. Certainly never noticed the extractor smelling like blueberries, cranberries or apples.
> 
> Saying that, there isn't much else around where the cranberry beds are, but bees do fly. It certainly could be that the bees are flying out of sight to knapweed, I guess. Japanese knotweed wasn't in bloom when this honey was made. I'm gonna have to ask the cranberry grower when his plants were in bloom.


How much wind is coming off extractor when you open the lid?


----------



## sqkcrk

I don't know. Jon gets after me when I open the extractor when it's running.


----------



## hpm08161947

Tim - are there a lot of bumblebees in this blueberry field?


----------



## Tim Ives

sqkcrk said:


> I don't know. Jon gets after me when I open the extractor when it's running.


Lol.Okay.. ya don't stick your face down in there...


----------



## Tim Ives

hpm08161947 said:


> Tim - are there a lot of bumblebees in this blueberry field?


I wouldn't say a lot, but noticeable. The Apple orchard has a lot of mason bees.


----------



## Oldtimer

Tim Ives said:


> Still haven't looked at my FB page. Bobcat


Well, I did tell you weeks ago I looked at your facebook page. Missed the part about the bobcat, and hate facebook generally.

So If I ask a question on this site, it would be normal to answer it on this site. Only exception to that would be if someone has written a big article somewhere else it would be quite reasonable to link it rather than re-write the whole thing, but for a one sentence answer, just do it where it's asked.


----------



## Tim Ives

Oldtimer said:


> Well, I did tell you weeks ago I looked at your facebook page. Missed the part about the bobcat, and hate facebook generally.
> 
> So If I ask a question on this site, it would be normal to answer it on this site. Only exception to that would be if someone has written a big article somewhere else it would be quite reasonable to link it rather than re-write the whole thing, but for a one sentence answer, just do it where it's asked.



If its already on my FB page, then my normal answer will be. Pics are FB. I'm not going to redirect anything JUST to satisfy you...


----------



## Oldtimer

Yes well if you have trouble with pics, like many do, no worries.


----------



## TWall

> Got to have bees strong enough to put up blueberry blossom. I averaged 90# on them about the same
> As the ones in the Apple orchards.


So, that works out to 180 lbs of honey per acre. No doubt strong hives can put up that much honey in a relatively short time period. 

I wonder how much of that is actually from blueberries? Considering that blueberries do not produce a lot of nectar and there are about 10 million flowers per acre that suggests that most of that honey came from surrounding areas. Here is a source for some of this info; http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/pollinating_highbush_blueberries

Tom


----------



## Tim Ives

TWall said:


> So, that works out to 180 lbs of honey per acre. No doubt strong hives can put up that much honey in a relatively short time period.
> 
> I wonder how much of that is actually from blueberries? Considering that blueberries do not produce a lot of nectar and there are about 10 million flowers per acre that suggests that most of that honey came from surrounding areas. Here is a source for some of this info; http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/pollinating_highbush_blueberries
> 
> Tom


The article says a strong hive is 40,000 bees. I'm pushing 3-4 times that per hive. Also note another 80 acre field 2.7 miles east. 200 Hives brought in from central Indiana 1.5 story on 4 ways.


----------



## delber

Tim Ives said:


> The article says a strong hive is 40,000 bees. I'm pushing 3-4 times that per hive. Also note another 80 acre field 2.7 miles east. 200 Hives brought in from central Indiana 1.5 story on 4 ways.


Higher math. . . 120 - 160 thousand bees? Are you using double queen hives? A full size hive maxes out at 60-80K bees. How can you get 3-4 times this ammt? I understand you can have a hive that's 10' tall but still they max out at those numbers. Am I missing something here?


----------



## WLC

Tim is very much into tower hives, and he has made some startling observations about how they are different from a more standard configuration. Especially with the methods and stock he is using.


----------



## delber

I just did a little figuring. . . Based on 1500 eggs laid by a queen, 1.5% loss in bees daily, starting at 2/1/13 going all the way to 10/31 with no break in brood / eggs laid you max out at 98,385 bees. That's not taking into consideration any break in brood, break in foraging, issues moving bees / queen shutting down for a day or so, etc. There's no way that I can see how a hive would have 120 - 160K bees. What am I missing Tim? Please let me know what I have wrong. I'm not trying to fight, but figure this out. I've told people in "talks" that I've done that a full sized hive maxes out at 60-80K bees. Is this figure wrong?


----------



## Tim Ives

delber said:


> Higher math. . . 120 - 160 thousand bees? Are you using double queen hives? A full size hive maxes out at 60-80K bees. How can you get 3-4 times this ammt? I understand you can have a hive that's 10' tall but still they max out at those numbers. Am I missing something here?



Single queens averaging 18 frame of brood per cycle. 72,000 per cycle,2 cycles 144,000 3 cycles 216,000. They start brooding up Feb 20th on average years. YouTube hive had to start in Jan to get the population up that early on 3/15. Snow was on tge ground till 2/27. Huge warm up, pollen started coming in 2/29. That's only 15 days from when fresh pollen was coming in to the day the first video was shot. Some asked why didn't I split that hive No drones, drone brood was only 10-12 days old which coincide with fresh pollen coming in. 

I have seen 22 frames of brood, most common on 3rd year queens (overwintered twice). This is the most prolific age of the queens that I see....


----------



## Tim Ives

Take the YouTube hive. 3 deeps boiling out both ends, how many bees are in pic, not counting what's foraging. What's going to happen in 21 days when all that brood emerges? Another 3 deeps full of bees.

Maximum limitations..... Is what I've been trying to figure out and it increases each year.


----------



## hpm08161947

When do blue berrys bloom in Indiana?


----------



## Tim Ives

hpm08161947 said:


> When do blue berrys bloom in Indiana?


Hives got placed 5/13 80% bloom (per owners direction), removed 5/28.

5/20 checked supers average 2 filled. I always place new super at bottom of stack. They'll fill drawn first before drawing new super. Added more drawn supers where needed, moved new supers to hives I wanted to slow down.


----------



## Tim Ives

New supers 10 frames, drawn 9. Don't like using 8 frame supers, to fat to fit on decapper.


----------



## Tim Ives

WLC said:


> Tim is very much into tower hives, and he has made some startling observations about how they are different from a more standard configuration. Especially with the methods and stock he is using.


Maximum limitation of stationery hive(s).


----------



## TWall

> The article says a strong hive is 40,000 bees. I'm pushing 3-4 times that per hive. Also note another 80 acre field 2.7 miles east. 200 Hives brought in from central Indiana 1.5 story on 4 ways.


Tim,

The point is blueberries do not produce enough nectar to account for that much honey. If you just go by the average of 2 million flowers needed for one pound of honey and 10 million flowers per acre you come up with 5 lbs/ acres. Let's say that is off by a factor of ten and you can get 50 lbs of honey per acre. You still have to account for other pollinators getting some of that nectar.

To put up that much honey that fast you need something that has a strong flow, blueberries are not it.

Tom


----------



## Tim Ives

TWall said:


> Tim,
> 
> The point is blueberries do not produce enough nectar to account for that much honey. If you just go by the average of 2 million flowers needed for one pound of honey and 10 million flowers per acre you come up with 5 lbs/ acres. Let's say that is off by a factor of ten and you can get 50 lbs of honey per acre. You still have to account for other pollinators getting some of that nectar.
> 
> To put up that much honey that fast you need something that has a strong flow, blueberries are not it.
> 
> Tom



No other yards put up the same amounts in this time frame, except hives at the Apple orchard. Black locust bloom didn't start till 5/22-23.


----------



## hpm08161947

It has been my understanding that a honeybee could not easily reach the bottom of a blue berry flower, unless the flower had been previously been visited by a bumblebee and breached the side of the blue berry flower, thus allowing the honey bee to extract nectar from the breach. This is according to David Tarpies grad students up at NC State who were out here in the blueberries trying to determine if a bumble bee was better at pollinating blue berries than a honey bee. Blue berries are big business down here on the coast of NC.

So I keep thinking... how can Tim get so much honey from 15 acres.... maybe it is a different blueberrie than we deal with commercially down here?


----------



## Tim Ives

hpm08161947 said:


> It has been my understanding that a honeybee could not easily reach the bottom of a blue berry flower, unless the flower had been previously been visited by a bumblebee and breached the side of the blue berry flower, thus allowing the honey bee to extract nectar from the breach. This is according to David Tarpies grad students up at NC State who were out here in the blueberries trying to determine if a bumble bee was better at pollinating blue berries than a honey bee. Blue berries are big business down here on the coast of NC.
> 
> So I keep thinking... how can Tim get so much honey from 15 acres.... maybe it is a different blueberrie than we deal with commercially down here?


There's another 80 acres 2.9 miles east. But they would be in competition with 200 1.5s on 4 ways.


----------



## Tim Ives

TWall said:


> So, that works out to 180 lbs of honey per acre. No doubt strong hives can put up that much honey in a relatively short time period.
> 
> I wonder how much of that is actually from blueberries? Considering that blueberries do not produce a lot of nectar and there are about 10 million flowers per acre that suggests that most of that honey came from surrounding areas. Here is a source for some of this info; http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/pollinating_highbush_blueberries
> 
> Tom


Something else that caught my attention in the article, under Hive densities. Says 4-8 honey bees per Bush in warmest part of day. I was seeing that rate per flower clusters.


----------



## delber

Tim Ives said:


> Single queens averaging 18 frame of brood per cycle. 72,000 per cycle,2 cycles 144,000 3 cycles 216,000. They start brooding up Feb 20th on average years. YouTube hive had to start in Jan to get the population up that early on 3/15. Snow was on tge ground till 2/27. Huge warm up, pollen started coming in 2/29. That's only 15 days from when fresh pollen was coming in to the day the first video was shot. Some asked why didn't I split that hive No drones, drone brood was only 10-12 days old which coincide with fresh pollen coming in.
> 
> I have seen 22 frames of brood, most common on 3rd year queens (overwintered twice). This is the most prolific age of the queens that I see....


Ok Using your numbers I've done a little calculating. I must say I forgot in my innitial figure to include the qty. of bees starting. If I just run with your figures of 27k bees on 18 frames. You say you have 22 frames of brood. My math says that this would equal 88,000 bees worth of brood. Correct? Take 22*72,000/18 = 88,000. So basic process of egg to adult is 21 days. So if I divide 88K by 21 what do you get? I get 4190 eggs per day? The high that I've read is 1500 per day. This is almost 3X the max ammt. I've read. Somewhere your numbers must be way off. 

I've also done some calculating on hive build up. . . 
Starting with 40K bees which I think is standard overwintering qty. (Please correct me if I'm wrong here) If we start in the beginning of Feb. (you said near the end is when they start building up) Using the 1500 eggs laid per day, 1.5% loss per day at the end of March you have 75652. This is assuming that there really isn't a "build up" because the queen is able to lay the full 1500 eggs per day. So if you go to the end of the year. (January 2014) you have 99761 bees with 1496 dying daily. The only way logically that I can see getting a hive up to the numbers that you have said (120 - 160K bees) is if your queen laid 2200+ eggs per day. At the end of this same year with no breaks in brood you'd have 146,240 bees with 2194 dying daily. With that ammt. of bees dying daily your numbers will only go up slightly from there even if you could not "brood down" overwinter. Even taking a month off will Kill these numbers. 

So 2200 eggs is 50% more than what I've read a good queen will max out at. Tim am I missing something? You have thrown these numbers out but how do you quantify them? How do you track it?


----------



## GregP

Well, to me commercial means the guys running 1000+ down in the almonds in California. But it's sounding like what you're aiming for is more like 50-100 across different locations, which is what I run. Like you said, enough to put clothing on you and your son's backs but you're not gonna get rich off of it. 

Before you get started there are some questions you need to ask:

1.) Do you have yards? in other words are there people either telling you they want bees on their property or do you know where there are people that will? you're looking for people who want a symbiotic relationship between their crops and your bees. People who WANT your bees there and who are careful about the ways they treat their crops. I find my best honey comes from a farm where there is very limited chemical treatments. I do understand this can be harder and harder to find as time goes on.

2.) Do you have a truck? This would be a truck that either has or that you could put a flatbed on. If you are doing several yards then you will want to be able to move between them. put on and take off from several yards at a time. 

3.) Do you have buyers? I don't mean people coming to your house. that will sell some, but I don't think enough to make a living off of. you will need a couple fruit stands, or smaller mom and pop type shops interested in buying your honey to sell retail from their stores, this will also help increase the business out of your house or property by having the location printed on the labels.

4.) What is your extraction setup like? do you have a melter and an extractor and bottling tanks? or are you uncapping into a plastic bin? this will make a huge difference in output. 

Those are some good things to think about starting out. It's not everything but they are good questions as a starting point.


----------



## WLC

You've forgotten the 'fat bee' factor.

In tower hives, not all bees become foragers and live a shortened life span.

Many of them remain in other sub-castes. So, more bees live longer than in other types of hives.

PS-I've never really cared for the term 'Fat Bee'. It's more about the nutritional condition of the hive and caste plasticity.


----------



## Tim Ives

WLC said:


> You've forgotten the 'fat bee' factor.
> 
> In tower hives, not all bees become foragers and live a shortened life span.
> 
> Many of them remain in other sub-castes. So, more bees live longer than in other types of hives.
> 
> PS-I've never really cared for the term 'Fat Bee'. It's more about the nutritional condition of the hive and caste plasticity.


BINGO...we have a winner. Morebers equal more bees to the maximum limits. P.S. ALOT more than 2200 a day average. I smash subpar queens like that.


----------



## Tim Ives

delber said:


> Ok Using your numbers I've done a little calculating. I must say I forgot in my innitial figure to include the qty. of bees starting. If I just run with your figures of 27k bees on 18 frames. You say you have 22 frames of brood. My math says that this would equal 88,000 bees worth of brood. Correct? Take 22*72,000/18 = 88,000. So basic process of egg to adult is 21 days. So if I divide 88K by 21 what do you get? I get 4190 eggs per day? The high that I've read is 1500 per day. This is almost 3X the max ammt. I've read. Somewhere your numbers must be way off.
> 
> I've also done some calculating on hive build up. . .
> Starting with 40K bees which I think is standard overwintering qty. (Please correct me if I'm wrong here) If we start in the beginning of Feb. (you said near the end is when they start building up) Using the 1500 eggs laid per day, 1.5% loss per day at the end of March you have 75652. This is assuming that there really isn't a "build up" because the queen is able to lay the full 1500 eggs per day. So if you go to the end of the year. (January 2014) you have 99761 bees with 1496 dying daily. The only way logically that I can see getting a hive up to the numbers that you have said (120 - 160K bees) is if your queen laid 2200+ eggs per day. At the end of this same year with no breaks in brood you'd have 146,240 bees with 2194 dying daily. With that ammt. of bees dying daily your numbers will only go up slightly from there even if you could not "brood down" overwinter. Even taking a month off will Kill these numbers.
> 
> So 2200 eggs is 50% more than what I've read a good queen will max out at. Tim am I missing something? You have thrown these numbers out but how do you quantify them? How do you track it?


I'm going by what I see, not what I read. Bees fail to read them books.

The numbers. I'm using Pierco/wood frames, 44*80 rows 3520 cells per side= 7040 cells per frame. One piece Pierco 10% more which has to many hiding places for SHB. A deep frame only 60% layed out is 4200*18/21=3600 egg pda. 80% layed out 5600*18/21=4800 egg pda. 22 frames 60%-4400 egg PDA. 

If you confine a queen to a single deep. She'll lay around 6 frames at 80% each. 5600*6=33600/21=1600 egg per day average. 

Whoever wants to argue this can argue ALL you want..... YOUR WRONG......


----------



## snl

Tim Ives said:


> Whoever wants to argue this can argue ALL you want..... YOUR WRONG......


And unfortunately you can't spell. It's you're wrong, not YOUR wrong.


----------



## Tim Ives

snl said:


> And unfortunately you can't spell. It's you're wrong, not YOUR wrong.


That's what happens using a thumb and a smart phone with predictive text. Maths right....


----------



## snl

Tim Ives said:


> That's what happens using a thumb and a smart phone with predictive text. Maths right....


Tim.......Math is both singular & plural. No need to add the "s." Driving you nuts yet?


----------



## Tim Ives

snl said:


> Tim.......Math is both singular & plural. No need to add the "s." Driving you nuts yet?


Not writing a book. Don't really care.....


----------



## Tim Ives

snl said:


> Tim.......Math is both singular & plural. No need to add the "s." Driving you nuts yet?


Driving you nuts yet? Who, what or why?


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

Tim Ives said:


> =4800 egg pda.


Laying one egg every 18 seconds. Nice. How much do 4,800 eggs weigh? How much does a queen weigh? How many eggs does a queen hold?

Queens won't get too old, isn't it? The faster they lay, the faster they are worn. 

What about Farrar's and others results, that colonies above 80,000 bees do not collect more but less? The optimum is said to be 60,000 bees per hive?

With 4,800 eggs layed per day you have a 60,000 brood cells filled every 12 days.


----------



## hpm08161947

Tim - what is it do you think causes your queens to lay at that rate? Is it just the vmgellin (Fat Bees). How do you get Fat Bees?


----------



## hpm08161947

snl said:


> Tim.......Math is both singular & plural. No need to add the "s." Driving you nuts yet?


SNL.... what are you trying to accomplish? We are trying to figure stuff out and maybe learn something..... get an Iphone and you will see what the problem is.... cool your jets.


----------



## Tim Ives

hpm08161947 said:


> Tim - what is it do you think causes your queens to lay at that rate? Is it just the vmgellin (Fat Bees). How do you get Fat Bees?


After talking to Randy Oliver when he was here. Yes Vitellogenin. 
All workers are female that are capable of laying eggs but do not. Vg is either turned to brood food or Royal Jelly. If you are not doing either. Then this is what helps create tge so called fat bees. So by always having maximum room and containing hives from swarming. By supering and adding new supers to keep wax builders depleted.


----------



## squarepeg

tim, do you think that it is the vg that allows your queens to last an average of five years despite the large volume of eggs they lay?


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## Tim Ives

From late Feb to early July hives are averaging 18 frames(15 low side 22 high side). Mid July on brood frames drop down to 9ish. I can't find anyone to answer what's happening to the vitellogenin of the 9 frame difference? It's not being fed to queen to produce eggs like previous and its not being fed to equal number of brood. Vg can be used to prolong the life of a forager. But population is well dropped by Sept.

Vg is also responsible for immune system.


----------



## Tim Ives

squarepeg said:


> tim, do you think that it is the vg that allows your queens to last an average of five years despite the large volume of eggs they lay?



I would suspect it helps, but she'll run out of sperm at somepoint.


----------



## WLC

Tim:

I wouldn't discount multiple queens in a tower hive. Frankly, it might be a better way to go if you want maximum honey production.


----------



## Tim Ives

WLC said:


> Tim:
> 
> I wouldn't discount multiple queens in a tower hive.


I encountered in 2011, when using 10 supers on top of 3 deeps. 1 out 8 times. Bees fill 7 supers, swarm out mid June. One Vquenn will move to top and one would stay down at bottom. So this dropped me back to using 7 and clearing after flows.


----------



## WLC

So, that's where 7 supers came from.


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## Tim Ives

WLC said:


> So, that's where 7 supers came from.


Correct... Plus anything over that, really is a pain....lol


----------



## jbeshearse

Tim Ives said:


> I'm going by what I see, not what I read. Bees fail to read them books.
> 
> The numbers. I'm using Pierco/wood frames, 44*80 rows 3520 cells per side= 7040 cells per frame. One piece Pierco 10% more which has to many hiding places for SHB. A deep frame only 60% layed out is 4200*18/21=3600 egg pda. 80% layed out 5600*18/21=4800 egg pda. 22 frames 60%-4400 egg PDA.
> 
> If you confine a queen to a single deep. She'll lay around 6 frames at 80% each. 5600*6=33600/21=1600 egg per day average.
> 
> Whoever wants to argue this can argue ALL you want..... YOUR WRONG......


You guys are using the wrong varibles to determine maximum populations. There are only two things that need to be considered for your math. Those are how many egges a day the queen lays and how long do the bees live. Multiply the number of eggs per day by the number of days the bees live. This will give you the maximum number of bees in the hive. Which will occure at the point the first bees begin dying off.

So if a queen lays 1500 eggs per day and your bees are living 60 days the max population is 1500x60 = 90,000. If your bees live 120 days then the max population is 180,000 at 1500 per day by the queen. After 60 or 90 days, depending on your stqated life span, as many bees are dying each day as there are eggs being laid. It is not about brood cycles at all.


----------



## Tim Ives

jbeshearse said:


> You guys are using the wrong varibles to determine maximum populations. There are only two things that need to be considered for your math. Those are how many egges a day the queen lays and how long do the bees live. Multiply the number of eggs per day by the number of days the bees live. This will give you the maximum number of bees in the hive. Which will occure at the point the first bees begin dying off.
> 
> So if a queen lays 1500 eggs per day and your bees are living 60 days the max population is 1500x60 = 90,000. If your bees live 120 days then the max population is 180,000 at 1500 per day by the queen. After 60 or 90 days, depending on your stqated life span, as many bees are dying each day as there are eggs being laid. It is not about brood cycles at all.


That's another variable to the equation. But the hives are still averaging 18 frames of brood not 6-8.


----------



## Roland

I must be crazy, Tim wrote:

If you confine a queen to a single deep. She'll lay around 6 frames at 80% each. 5600*6=33600/21=1600 egg per day average. 

We usually get closer to 12-13 frames of brood with the queen confined to one deep. Must be doing something wrong.

Crazy Roland


----------



## loggermike

Crazy Roland aint crazy. Here is the best thing I ever saw written on the subject. 

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/broodframes.htm


----------



## Tim Ives

Roland said:


> I must be crazy, Tim wrote:
> 
> If you confine a queen to a single deep. She'll lay around 6 frames at 80% each. 5600*6=33600/21=1600 egg per day average.
> 
> We usually get closer to 12-13 frames of brood with the queen confined to one deep. Must be doing something wrong.
> 
> Crazy Roland


That's pretty awesome getting 12-13 frames in a 10 frame box????


----------



## Tim Ives

loggermike said:


> Crazy Roland aint crazy. Here is the best thing I ever saw written on the subject.
> 
> http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/broodframes.htm


Only problem bees don't layout 100% of a frame. There's always pollen/honey rings around the brood areas. Not sure how he comes up with 6400 cells to a frame. 44*80rows comes out to 3520 cells per side 7040 per frame. 

Course everyone writes what they THINK bees should be doing....


----------



## Barry

Tim Ives said:


> That's pretty awesome getting 12-13 frames in a 10 frame box????


Not as good as you getting 18!
"But the hives are still averaging 18 frames of brood not 6-8."

Anyway, where do you get this 6-8 number?


----------



## Tim Ives

Barry said:


> Not as good as you getting 18!
> "But the hives are still averaging 18 frames of brood not 6-8."
> 
> Anyway, where do you get this 6-8 number?


That was in response to 1500 egg PDA. 1500*21= 31500/4200(60%)= 5.6 frames.31500/5600(80%)=7.5 frames.


----------



## Tim Ives

Barry said:


> Not as good as you getting 18!
> "But the hives are still averaging 18 frames of brood not 6-8."
> 
> Anyway, where do you get this 6-8 number?


18 frames in 3 deeps. I'm still trying to figure out how you can fit 12-13 frames in a 10 frame box. Some kind of trick with the hive tool to do that?


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## loggermike

I believe Roland moves frames of brood above the excluder,to keep an open brood nest. Tried their system(as written up in ABJ) once many moons ago. Got a lot of honey (and a sore back).


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## Tim Ives

loggermike said:


> I believe Roland moves frames of brood above the excluder,to keep an open brood nest. Tried their system(as written up in ABJ) once many moons ago. Got a lot of honey (and a sore back).


Why use a excluder if she can only lay 12 frames of brood?

I'm not using a excluder and surely not going to be moving 7 supers off to be manipulating brood.


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## Tim Ives

Using 3 deeps the brood is egg shaped area amongst the 3 boxes. Hives are supered early enough not to let them start back filling brood area. July when they start brooding down. 3 rd deep gets filled with honey.


----------



## Tim Ives

loggermike said:


> I believe Roland moves frames of brood above the excluder,to keep an open brood nest. Tried their system(as written up in ABJ) once many moons ago. Got a lot of honey (and a sore back).



What do you consider a lot of honey?


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

I tried a many hive types, including a five deep with drawn comb. I have never seen more than 5-8 full (!) brood combs of brood. Deep Dadant frames. Full means: brood only.










Of course with lots of space the broodnest is spread a little more. But all in all, there is the same amount of brood in the hives. No more or less. Of course the total amount depends on the quality of the queen and breed.

Also the egg laying rate depends on outside daily maximum temperatures. At least for Carnolians. This has been found out by three scientists yonks ago. I tested it and I can verify it from my close observations of brood development.










The formula is: egg laying per day y = x * 22.8295 1.4254 high
Where x = is the daily maximum temperature.

Made an Excel spreadsheet with lots of features. Will post it soon.

I went the opposite way, keeping the queen confined to two Warré boxes with eight frames each. (But 5.1 mm foundation = more cells per frame.) So 16 relatively small sized brood combs. Relative = compared to Langstroth frames. The combs are full of brood like the one shown above. Pollen and honey stored overhead the brood nest. 

There is no visible difference between those colonies and the ones on five deeps, or on larger frame formats. It seems to me that in all hives types there is the same amount of brood. I would be very interested if you could make pictures of all the broodcombs in one of your hives. To get an idea of the overall square inch of brood. 

Bernhard


----------



## sqkcrk

Barry said:


> Not as good as you getting 18!
> "But the hives are still averaging 18 frames of brood not 6-8."
> 
> Anyway, where do you get this 6-8 number?


Rarely do I ever see anything in the outer two frames, the wall combs, than honey. Rarely do I ever see and brood on these frames. Maybe some drone brood from time to time. About the only time of year I see top bar to bottom bar/end bar to end bar capped brood is during Spring buildup. Maybe I need to get into my brood boxes more in the Fall.


----------



## Barry

Tim Ives said:


> I'm not using a excluder and surely not going to be moving 7 supers off to be manipulating brood.


One could have 7 supers on at one time or one could only have a couple on and extract them more often.


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## jim lyon

I would agree that 12 to 13 "stick to stick" frames of brood is the maximum laying capability of any single queen....anywhere. That is an observation based on splitting thousands and thousands of large hives through the years at the very peak of egg laying. Of course with an open brood nest with three or more hive bodies there is going to be brood on a lot more frames but if you measured and calculated the total area in square inches it is still going to calculate out about the same. Roland's example where a queen is excluded into a single and frames rotated out is probably going to give you the most (also the most work for the beekeeper) simply because there is always open comb available and the queen dosent have to roam the hive looking for open comb.


----------



## loggermike

The year I ran hives like Roland, I learned a lot about queens. Some,especially the Italians would lay wall to wall in that single deep.And push every drop of honey above the excluder. Older queens and carns would tend to get plugged up with pollen and nectar, then start swarm cells.

Now days I give the queens all the room they want in the spring, but shaking bees and pulling brood for nucs keeps the swarming down.Honey production isnt our goal any more. Why bother , with a multi year drought going on.We are in survival mode with a lot of feeding going on.



Bernhard said:

"Of course with lots of space the broodnest is spread a little more. But all in all, there is the same amount of brood in the hives. No more or less. Of course the total amount depends on the quality of the queen and breed."

I agree.


----------



## Tim Ives

Barry said:


> One could have 7 supers on at one time or one could only have a couple on and extract them more often.


I extract 3-5 DIFFERENT TIMES


----------



## Tim Ives

Barry said:


> One could have 7 supers on at one time or one could only have a couple on and extract them more often.


You really have NO CLUE what a strong hive looks like do you????;


----------



## Barry

Tim Ives said:


> I extract 3-5 DIFFERENT TIMES


And perhaps Roland extracts 8-10 different times!!


----------



## WLC

I'm pretty clear on the different characteristics/behaviors that Tim is applying.

I think that the fact that the brood nest can actually move up during a good flow, therefore leaving plenty of room in the lower part of the 3 deep configuration for nectar to cure, and simultaneously pushing up honey stores into the 7 supers, is something that's allowing the extra space for brood. When the flow slows down, the nectar storage area below clears out leaving space for new brood.

It's a very clever use of the unlimited/open brood-nest concept.

I think that the 'fat bee' model also makes a lot of bees, that are stuck in sub-castes below forager, available for rearing brood and turning nectar into honey.

It's almost as if the 3 deeps are acting like a honey/brood pump. Up and down, up and down.


----------



## Barry

Tim Ives said:


> You really have NO CLUE what a strong hive looks like do you????;


You're right Tim, I have NO CLUE. You've invented the strong hive.


----------



## Tim Ives

Barry said:


> And perhaps Roland extracts 8-10 different times!!


So he's getting 8-10 different flows?????


----------



## Tim Ives

Barry said:


> You're right Tim, I have NO CLUE. You've invented the strong hive.


I didn't invent anything, I started listen to the bees, not books or people that THINK they know bees....


----------



## Tim Ives

Barry said:


> One could have 7 supers on at one time or one could only have a couple on and extract them more often.


Bees do not fit in just 3 deeps and a couple supers. So No this is not a option.


----------



## WLC

I'm starting to see an 'Oscillating spring' or a 'flywheel' model in what Tim is describing.
You know, potential to kinetic energy, and back again.

I'd say that 3 deeps and 7 supers is a hive configuration that allows this to happen.

The brood nest as well as nectar/honey stores aren't static. They constantly 'oscillate'.

The terms 'feedback' and 'resonance' almost certainly apply.

I'm not convinced that a few deeps and a few supers can do this reliably.

In my experience, these tower hives could have a constant period of oscillation if they fulfill certain requirements.

So, we need to determine if tower hives: can in fact 'resonate', the period of that resonance, and if these tower hives can resonate in synchrony.

I think that would help to bring Tim's model to the next level, and even help him solve his logistical issues.


----------



## sqkcrk

Tim Ives said:


> I extract 3-5 DIFFERENT TIMES


From the same hives?


----------



## sqkcrk

Barry said:


> And perhaps Roland extracts 8-10 different times!!


From the same hives?


----------



## sqkcrk

Tim Ives said:


> So he's getting 8-10 different flows?????


When you said how many times you extract, was it 3 to 5?, was that from different flows?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

WLC said:


> In my experience, these tower hives could have a constant period of _oscillation _if they fulfill certain requirements.


I've heard that a _5 gallon bucket of water _can cure that hive oscillation! :lookout:

Probably best to put a lid on it ....


----------



## Barry

sqkcrk said:


> From the same hives?


I have no idea Mark. I'm simply trying to make a point that Tim doesn't have a corner on the commercial market. There's more than one way to achieve the end goal. I wish Tim would be a little less "know it all" and explain himself with more than one-liners. It's all so cryptic, giving bits and pieces, with an attitude. 

In response to what Roland does, he says: "I'm not using a excluder and surely not going to be moving 7 supers off to be manipulating brood."
OK, that's fine for how you do it, but I'm sure Roland has figured out a way to harvest honey doing it his way. It doesn't have to be a battle.


----------



## Tim Ives

sqkcrk said:


> From the same hives?


Correct.... Hives on fruits get extracted more vs ones not.


----------



## sqkcrk

Yeah, but fruitbloom nectar is only one nectar source. So, are you telling me/us that you get 3 to 5 distinct nectar flows where your yards are? Enough so that you are getting honey well capped enough to take off and extract and be w/in the 16.5 to 18.5% moisture content range?

Is that right?


----------



## Tim Ives

sqkcrk said:


> Yeah, but fruitbloom nectar is only one nectar source. So, are you telling me/us that you get 3 to 5 distinct nectar flows where your yards are? Enough so that you are getting honey well capped enough to take off and extract and be w/in the 16.5 to 18.5% moisture content range?
> 
> Is that right?



Correct.


----------



## Tim Ives

Barry said:


> I have no idea Mark. I'm simply trying to make a point that Tim doesn't have a corner on the commercial market. There's more than one way to achieve the end goal. I wish Tim would be a little less "know it all" and explain himself with more than one-liners. It's all so cryptic, giving bits and pieces, with an attitude.
> 
> In response to what Roland does, he says: "I'm not using a excluder and surely not going to be moving 7 supers off to be manipulating brood."
> OK, that's fine for how you do it, but I'm sure Roland has figured out a way to harvest honey doing it his way. It doesn't have to be a battle.


Obviously there are people on here that knows what I'm doing better than I know what I'm doing. Ask them, all I get is a attitude from people like you....


----------



## squarepeg

tim,

sounds like you phase shifted into another dimension where the natural laws governing honey bees are totally different than this one.

no treatments
no feeding
<10% annual loss
15+ medium supers of harvestable honey per hive
queens last in excess of 5 yrs.
workable without any protection

that about right?


----------



## Tim Ives

squarepeg said:


> tim,
> 
> sounds like you phase shifted into another dimension where the natural laws governing honey bees are totally different than this one.
> 
> no treatments
> no feeding
> <10% annual loss
> 15+ medium supers of harvestable honey per hive
> queens last in excess of 5 yrs.
> workable without any protection
> 
> that about right?


That is all correct..... Barry don't forget to archive this....


----------



## hpm08161947

About Feb 1 the bees start to feed on the Red Maple pollen around here.If I am to try the *"Ives Hives"* should I (About 2/1) go out to my 1 1/2 pull the 1/2 and place to deeps on top then place 7 supers on top of that? Looks like the 7 supers are all deeps. I do not see any real nectar till about 4/1.

Man this is going to be radical!


----------



## squarepeg

Tim Ives said:


> That is all correct..... Barry don't forget to archive this....



well then you are to be commended, congratulated, and get attaboy's! 

seriously, way to go tim!


----------



## Tim Ives

hpm08161947 said:


> About Feb 1 the bees start to feed on the Red Maple pollen around here.If I am to try the *"Ives Hives"* should I (About 2/1) go out to my 1 1/2 pull the 1/2 and place to deeps on top then place 7 supers on top of that? Looks like the 7 supers are all deeps. I do not see any real nectar till about 4/1.
> 
> Man this is going to be radical!


You're about 6 weeks ahead of me on Red maples.

Place supers on no later then 14 days after first pollen starts coming in. Otherwise once drone brood starts emerging, hives can start creating Qcells. Which at that point to late. Drawn supers are needed to entice hoarding behavior. Checker boarding with new supers/drawn depletes wax builders. 

Wax builders are a major precursor needed to cast swarm.


----------



## sqkcrk

Tim Ives said:


> Obviously there are people on here that knows what I'm doing better than I know what I'm doing. Ask them, all I get is a attitude from people like you....


Isn't this exactly why you don't care for this form of communication? Why have you subjected yourself to this "exercise" at this time?


----------



## squarepeg

that's the approach i took this year except i did it third scale.

i went into february with single deeps half full of bees and getting their first rounds of brood off on the maples and stored honey. they had three mediums of mostly empty comb with a half dozen frames of honey checkerboarded in the first two mediums. the nests were more or less centered in the middle frames of the deeps, and there was still a good bit of honey and beebread on the outside frames of the deep.

i thought i would have it made on swarming, and i was to some degree. only half of my colonies swarmed but that compares to all swarming like they did the year before. (all i had was foundation that year)

the ones that swarmed despite having plenty of empty comb over head came to an abrupt stop at a dividing line bewtween boxes one coloney never got out of the deep, a couple of them stopped at the top of the first medium, and a couple of them stopped at the top of the second medium. the colonies that did not swarm ended up filling 5 - 6 mediums of harvestable honey, in addition to drawning out one or two mediums of foundation.

it was a good year for nectar, and in these kind of years once i have the comb and if i can prevent swarming it should be no problem to get 6 maybe 7 supers harvested once per season per deep of bees.

the bees are long time locally adapted survivors with lots of ferals in the woods.

this is also no treatments, no sugar, i do have to wear protection though.

bloodline is longtime local survivors with generous feral drone contribution.

three year average loss is 11%

was able to sell a couple nucs last year and this year, and will be offering nucs plus queens next year.

other than hive volume (which is a function of my latitude and a personal preference not to work on a ladder) i'm following similar practices to what you are tim and i'm happy with the results so far.


----------



## squarepeg

sqkcrk said:


> Isn't this exactly why you don't care for this form of communication? Why have you subjected yourself to this "exercise" at this time?


i just paid tim a great compliment mark. it meant it sincerely and not sarcastically. really good job tim, i think you are combining all of the right elements of bee husbandry and your results speak for theirselves.


----------



## Tim Ives

squarepeg said:


> tim,
> 
> sounds like you phase shifted into another dimension where the natural laws governing honey bees are totally different than this one.
> 
> no treatments
> no feeding
> <10% annual loss
> 15+ medium supers of harvestable honey per hive
> queens last in excess of 5 yrs.
> workable without any protection
> 
> that about right?


Area stats of Michiana beekeepers Association. 30% +/-3% losses since started keeping track in 2006. My bees must be getting all the Honey in the area. 40-70# averages reported (2deep/queen excluders couple supers)

2012/13 MBA totals 135lost/714 hives 19.1% loss. Take mine and 8 other guys set up the same 22 lost/270 hives 8.14%. The rest of candyland 113 lost of 436 25.9% losses.


----------



## Tim Ives

sqkcrk said:


> Isn't this exactly why you don't care for this form of communication? Why have you subjected yourself to this "exercise" at this time?


The people that ask question without attitude, I congenially answer. Someone wants to give a attitude, fine I'll play.


----------



## sqkcrk

squarepeg said:


> i just paid tim a great compliment mark. it meant it sincerely and not sarcastically. really good job tim, i think you are combining all of the right elements of bee husbandry and your results speak for theirselves.


You don't think I was responding to something you wrote, do you?


----------



## Tim Ives

squarepeg said:


> i just paid tim a great compliment mark. it meant it sincerely and not sarcastically. really good job tim, i think you are combining all of the right elements of bee husbandry and your results speak for theirselves.


I knew it wasn't sarcastic. 

Just like Randy Oliver said when he was here. " Nothing New, Just good beekeeping. Dont really see what the big deal is"


----------



## squarepeg

i stopped feeding syrup after realizing that real honey has a lot more in it that sugars. those trace elements are key in supporting the superorganism's immunology, not to mention the ph problem you can get with syrup.

walt wright pointed out to me that it's only the first year that you invest by harvesting less honey and not replacing it with syrup. the dividend for the honey investment is health ,the vigor, and the colony strength coming out of winter which more than pays you back in more bees and more honey in the following years.

disclaimor: results may vary, and this post was in no way meant to be a criticism of feeding or those to feed.


----------



## squarepeg

Tim Ives said:


> I knew it wasn't sarcastic.
> 
> Just like Randy Oliver said when he was here. " Nothing New, Just good beekeeping. Dont really see what the big deal is"


exactly.


----------



## WLC

">Just like Randy Oliver said when he was here. " Nothing New, Just good beekeeping. Dont really see what the big deal is" <

I think that there's something new going on. Starting with 'feral' resistant stock and then all the rest.

Since I've seen the evidence first hand with my own hybrid bees and tower hive, I'm beginning to sense that there's a very different dynamic going on with this type of hive/beekeeping.

It's certainly much more interesting then what I've tried before.

It's not the 'same old, same old'.


----------



## sqkcrk

squarepeg said:


> i just paid tim a great compliment mark. it meant it sincerely and not sarcastically. really good job tim, i think you are combining all of the right elements of bee husbandry and your results speak for theirselves.


I don't know why you wrote the above to me. Do you?


----------



## squarepeg

perhaps wlc we just happen to be making observations at this particular point in the acquiring resistance timeline.

some would argue it's much less about what we're doing or not doing and more about what the bees and changes in the environment. (of course we have a way of altering the environment, but that's another thread  )


----------



## squarepeg

sqkcrk said:


> I don't know why you wrote the above to me. Do you?


apologies mark, i didn't catch your last post until i scrolled back. 

yes, your post (inadvertently as i know now) made me think that my previous post might have been taken out of context, and it was important to me to make sure it wasn't.

please forgive me, it was my error.


----------



## WLC

Considering everything that Tim is describing, I think that his logistical problems due to overproduction are a clue to something that is both fascinating and non-trivial.

It's as if he's trying to break the sound barrier.

If we can find evidence for an oscillation in unlimited broodnest hives, using Tim's approach, then maybe we can use feedback to our advantage.

He uses the term 'Maximum limitations'.

I think that 'Maximum Potential' is a better term. Frankly, if an oscillation does exist, then yes, you can put it in an equation.


----------



## sqkcrk

squarepeg said:


> apologies mark, i didn't catch you last post until i scrolled back.
> 
> yes, your post (inadvertently as i know now) made me think that my previous post might have been taken out of context, and it was important to me to make sure it wasn't.
> 
> please forgive me, it was my error.


Okay. Glad we got that cleared up.


----------



## squarepeg

okay, looks like missed a number of posts back there, including the exchange between barry and tim, which prompted marks post. (slaps head)

wlc, nothing really new.

unlimited brood nest, honey only feeding, checkerboarding comb and honey in the spring, no treatments. 

i would argue that many of us have seen just as strong a colony, albeit scaled down, by employing these methods, as have those who came before us.

what tim is doing a little different is scaling up, which happens to work well with his moderately long winters, and virtually uninterrupted nectar flow.


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## sqkcrk

What I am seeing from Tim seems outrageous. His numbers are something I have never seen. Many years ago the was a gardening craze called Biodynamic Intensive Gardening, which also produced outrageous amounts of vegetables on a small plot of land.

Outrageous may mean suspect and skeptical, but I have not made up my mind, despite what I may have exchanged w/ others privately.

I choose to believe that Tim is not scamming us. That he is doing what he says and getting what he gets. I don't fully understand or know how he is doing what he is doing. I'm probably not willing to do what he is doing anymore than I am willing to do what Michael Palmer does. MP gets huge amounts of honey off of his hives too.

I believe that Tim is doing Biodynamic Intensive Beekeeping. I just don't want to work that hard. Many are capable, few are willing.


----------



## jim lyon

Tim Ives said:


> Just like Randy Oliver said when he was here. " Nothing New, Just good beekeeping. Dont really see what the big deal is"


I heartily concur, nothing radically new here, its pretty much what all beekeepers have seen for years. In its simplist form, commercial honey production is about getting bees in the boxes and putting the boxes where the nectar source is. But let's step back for a moment and remember that this thread isn't really about losses, or whether honey is better than sugar, or how hive population relates to brood nest size, or about how one calculates their per colony averages. What commercial beekeeping is really about is return on investment. How much have you invested in time and money and what you are getting back out of that investment. Sometimes good beekeeping practices are cost efficient and sometimes they aren't. The commercial mindset is maximizing that return on investment. 
If instead of leaving 60 pounds per hive for winter feed you choose to leave 20, take 40 and supplement the remainder. Do the calculations yourself and then take your answer times 5,000 or even 500. I'm no math whiz but clearly this decision has a few more layers to it than strictly which feed is better.


----------



## WLC

I wouldn't say what Tim is describing maximizes profit.

However, he is reporting big numbers for frames of brood and honey production.

What I'm focusing on are the observations and theories that he's expressed.

My own experience tells me that when you pass certain thresholds in biological systems, you're going to start seeing secondary and tertiary effects.

That's what I believe Tim is describing.

He's also describing 3-5 brood cycles, so I would be curious to know if they're periodic so that you can predict when the highs and lows in a cycle will be reached.

That would be something new in my opinion.


----------



## squarepeg

jim, you are right on the money when it comes to maximum harvest per hive.

but if we accept that there are trade offs and compromises when i comes to management techniques, it may bear out that sacrificing a little harvest means less intervention needed to achieve colony health,

and if it bears out that there are less lost colonies over winter but instead more and stronger colonies when main flow hits, and the result is making back more honey overall because of it,

then all you are investing is that first year's harvestable honey.

that's a lot of ifs, but i think i'm seeing it.


----------



## WLC

"...that's a lot of ifs, but i think i'm seeing it."

I'm seeing something similar in a first year tower hive started from a package in April.

We've got to wait two more seasons to know if they're a form of sustainable permaculture or not though.

However, did you use marked/clipped queens in your hives? I'm glad I did. I want to see how long the queen actually lasts in this type of hive.


----------



## squarepeg

no marking or clipping.

my bees requeen themselves at least once, and sometimes twice a year.

12 out of twelve hives either swarmed, (despite my best efforts, but i'm learning), or superceded in may or june.

6 swarmed, 6 superceded (as witnessed on inspection).

i will concentrate on doing whatever it takes to not let them stop their working space along a functional divide, (the gap in comb in between the boxes). pyramiding?


----------



## squarepeg

jim,

i hope i didn't sound like a newbee know it all back there disrespecting the lifer. 

this may be one of those stationary vs. migratory considerations. i could see where it doesn't make as much sense to leave harvestable honey if the colonies were going south and put on patties anyway.

i think the bees getting the patties are lucky bees, considering they could be clustered for weeks on end up in the dakotas. 

i haven't seen a study that suggested better overwintering (less % loss) on fed vs. unfed, so my assuming is based on a hunch, although that hunch may not be so.


----------



## WLC

Well, since I'm using BeeWeaver as my queen source...

Since she's marked and clipped, she isn't going to be the queen doing the swarming (clipped). And, if she is superceded (marked), then I can get a new queen from the original source (assuming that I don't like what I see).

I am trying to keep that variable under control.

Frankly, if I followed standard practice, then I should requeen yearly automatically.

I can't see a commercial operation wanting to deal with any uncertainty in their queens.

It's an unnecessary headache.


----------



## squarepeg

i was able to catch about half of my swarms, (nine in all), which made for good replacements and nucs for queenrearing. the other nine swarms that got away are hopefully out in these woods propagating their survivor genes and providing drones down the line.


----------



## WLC

Well, that's just not practical in midtown.

However, USPS is an easy way to get queens.

I don't have to do any hard work to get the kind of genetics that I want.


----------



## squarepeg

no problem, royalty is used to air travel.


----------



## squarepeg

i think i've got survival, productivity, and workability. that leaves me deselecting for swarm tendency.

who said the bees are in trouble?

we're reflecting on how to max production per hive. could be worse.


----------



## WLC

Well, if you've got hybrids that are kinda runny and flighty, then you're on the right track.

Swarmy? I dunno. Maybe get some virgin queens from a source you like and open mate them with what you have there.

I think that you need hybrids in order for the type of beekeeping that Tim is describing to work.


----------



## squarepeg

i would say that all my bees are hybrids from decades of swarms that are now unmanaged in the woods around me.

i'll deselect for swarm tendency by grafting from colonies that i was able to keep from swarming. the drone contribution is probably more from the many colonies in the woods, but also from my survivors in the yard.


----------



## Roland

Tim asked;

I'm still trying to figure out how you can fit 12-13 frames in a 10 frame box. Some kind of trick with the hive tool to do that? 

I believe others answered for me. Yes, we move brood, so although the queen is restricted to 10 frames, the brood is not. You don't have to be crazy to pull of that trick.

I do believe however, that it may be possible to trick the queen into thinking she does not have as many bees as she does, and hence promote egg laying. When a frame of brood hatches above the excluder, and the bees turn to forage from an upper entrance, is it possible due to their NOT crowding the brood chamber, that the queen thnks she has fewer bees than she does? 

As for how often we extract: When ever and where ever a super gets full. The plant offerings are always in flux, and therefore the taste of the honey is also.

Crazy and tricky Roland


----------



## squarepeg

roland, when you move a frame of empty comb back down into the bottom deep to give the queen room to lay, do you put it in the middle or toward the outside of the broodnest? do you sometimes move more than one empty frame back down at a time, and again where you would put them?


----------



## Tim Ives

Roland said:


> Tim asked;
> 
> I'm still trying to figure out how you can fit 12-13 frames in a 10 frame box. Some kind of trick with the hive tool to do that?
> 
> I believe others answered for me. Yes, we move brood, so although the queen is restricted to 10 frames, the brood is not. You don't have to be crazy to pull of that trick.
> 
> I do believe however, that it may be possible to trick the queen into thinking she does not have as many bees as she does, and hence promote egg laying. When a frame of brood hatches above the excluder, and the bees turn to forage from an upper entrance, is it possible due to their NOT crowding the brood chamber, that the queen thnks she has fewer bees than she does?
> 
> As for how often we extract: When ever and where ever a super gets full. The plant offerings are always in flux, and therefore the taste of the honey is also.
> 
> Crazy and tricky Roland


You're using TWO brood boxes, not one. 

"Tricking" the queen? NO.... she's doing here job.


----------



## Tim Ives

Nurses feeding the queen dictates here laying along with available empty combs for her to lay in. 

Sure there is many ways to do things. One can push a car up a hill or you can drive it up the hill. Push away....


----------



## Tim Ives

WLC said:


> Considering everything that Tim is describing, I think that his logistical problems due to overproduction are a clue to something that is both fascinating and non-trivial.
> 
> It's as if he's trying to break the sound barrier.
> 
> If we can find evidence for an oscillation in unlimited broodnest hives, using Tim's approach, then maybe we can use feedback to our advantage.
> 
> He uses the term 'Maximum limitations'.
> 
> I think that 'Maximum Potential' is a better term. Frankly, if an oscillation does exist, then yes, you can put it in an equation.


Maximum limitation: Queens can only layout so many frames. Hives can only draw out so much comb per year. Hives will only occupy so much space. 
The more hives one obtains, the easier the averages are to see.

If a hive is above average. Why? If a hive is below average. Why?

What is the least amount of time spent in a hive to get maximum results?

I can tell you I'm not going to waste $1500 on queen excluders to obtain 3-500% LESS honey and waste whatever time in manipulating brood. Sounds crazy to me.....


----------



## Tim Ives

Barry said:


> I have no idea Mark. I'm simply trying to make a point that Tim doesn't have a corner on the commercial market. There's more than one way to achieve the end goal. I wish Tim would be a little less "know it all" and explain himself with more than one-liners. It's all so cryptic, giving bits and pieces, with an attitude.
> 
> In response to what Roland does, he says: "I'm not using a excluder and surely not going to be moving 7 supers off to be manipulating brood."
> OK, that's fine for how you do it, but I'm sure Roland has figured out a way to harvest honey doing it his way. It doesn't have to be a battle.


I know all what my bees are doing. You already THINK you know it all.


----------



## Oldtimer

Tim I believe you are a much better beekeeper than a communicator.

I think.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Tim Ives said:


> I can tell you I'm not going to waste $1500 on queen excluders to obtain 3-*500% LESS honey *..... Sounds crazy to me.....


:scratch: :s

Sounds crazy to _me _to think that is is possible to lose anything _beyond 100%_! Once you are down to zero, you have nothing left to lose.


(with apologies to Janis J) :lookout:


----------



## squarepeg

Oldtimer said:


> Tim I believe you are a much better beekeeper than a communicator.
> 
> I think.


probably hasn't had his coffee yet.


----------



## Tim Ives

squarepeg said:


> i would say that all my bees are hybrids from decades of swarms that are now unmanaged in the woods around me.
> 
> i'll deselect for swarm tendency by grafting from colonies that i was able to keep from swarming. the drone contribution is probably more from the many colonies in the woods, but also from my survivors in the yard.


Pre 2010 I had problems with swarming. For one all the Oldtimers in the area said our major flow didn't start till June in thus area. My original yard has 3-4 acres of black locust, which starts blooming 5/20-22 on average. Pre10' is wasn't supering till about end of first week of May. Problem was overwintered triples started swarming out 4/27(08'09'10'). 2010 I suoered up first week of April, but only had enough supers to contain 1/3 of the hives with 4 supers each(1 new3 drawn). The rest got split 4/27-5/6. 
2011 on, I started supering about 2 weeks after fresh pollen started coming in. This cut swarming down on supered hives. 90+% successful.


----------



## Ian

Tim Ives said:


> I can tell you I'm not going to waste $1500 on queen excluders to obtain 3-500% LESS honey and waste whatever time in manipulating brood. Sounds crazy to me.....


if you know how to use excluders, the production difference is nil


----------



## Tim Ives

Rader Sidetrack said:


> :scratch: :s
> 
> Sounds crazy to _me _to think that is is possible to lose anything _beyond 100%_! Once you are down to zero, you have nothing left to lose.
> 
> 
> (with apologies to Janis J) :lookout:



60-150# vs 300-400# ???


----------



## Tim Ives

Oldtimer said:


> Tim I believe you are a much better beekeeper than a communicator.
> 
> I think.



Like it or not, I get my point across....


----------



## Tim Ives

Rader Sidetrack said:


> :scratch: :s
> 
> Sounds crazy to _me _to think that is is possible to lose anything _beyond 100%_! Once you are down to zero, you have nothing left to lose.
> 
> 
> (with apologies to Janis J) :lookout:


Don't ever try playing the Futures market then......


----------



## Tim Ives

Ian said:


> if you know how to use excluders, the production difference is nil


Nill being the key word


----------



## Tim Ives

Ian said:


> if you know how to use excluders, the production difference is nil


By using a excluder you're going into winters with dramatically less pollen stores because you kept the bees competeing the comb space to brood and not pollen. Less spring build up less population less honey. So how are you figuring?????


----------



## Barry

Tim Ives said:


> Nill being the key word


No, "difference is nil" are the key words.


----------



## jim lyon

squarepeg said:


> jim,
> 
> i hope i didn't sound like a newbee know it all back there disrespecting the lifer.
> 
> this may be one of those stationary vs. migratory considerations. i could see where it doesn't make as much sense to leave harvestable honey if the colonies were going south and put on patties anyway.
> 
> i think the bees getting the patties are lucky bees, considering they could be clustered for weeks on end up in the dakotas.
> 
> i haven't seen a study that suggested better overwintering (less % loss) on fed vs. unfed, so my assuming is based on a hunch, although that hunch may not be so.


No offense taken. Respect must be earned, it's never awarded. 
No, I don't believe there is any direct relationship between the carbohydrate source bees use to winter on and overwintering success as long as the feed is given early enough that the bees can properly orient and store it. Some honeys are very good winter feed some not so good. In very cold climates a hard granulating honey may be much worse than pure fructose or sucrose. Same can be said for pollen, in a perfect beekeeping area with plentiful and varied pollen sources there would be no need for pollen supplements, such is not the case for all though. Excluders? They are both a great tool and a potential swarming trigger. The key is how they are used, when they are used and how the hive is set up. I try to limit my posts to relating some things that I have done right and wrong through my decades in the business and not as someone with all the answers. What has been successful for me may or may not work for someone else in an entirely different climate and forage area. There are too many variables to make absolute statements about most things beekeeping.


----------



## squarepeg

agree tim. following walt wright's nectar management principles i supered what drawn comb i had on the first tree pollen, which was mid-feb here this year.

each overwintered deep had 2 or three mediums of empty drawn comb with some honey checkerboarded in the first medium.

this was the first year i had sufficient comb to do that, but my swarm rate went from 100% in 2012 to 50% in 2013.

the ones that swarmed had room, but got stuck at the functional gap between the boxes and stared backfilling before i noticed it.

next year, if i find them ignoring the next box up, i'll do a little moving a few frames of brood up in to the next box to encourage them to move up.

this means i'm combining checkerboarding, unlimited brood nest, pyramiding, and possibly opening up the brood nest.

i say possibly opening up the broodnest because while i am convinced i should help them move up in they don't on their own, i am not sure where i'll insert the empty drawn comb for the queen to lay in.

my question to roland and anyone else who has a thought on it,

when adding empty comb to the broodnest, is it better to put it in the middle of the nest or on the outside of the nest?

i'm guessing that if it is still getting cold at night i should put it on the outside of the nest, meaning the bee will have to break cluster to get around the empty frame and back to their stores.

once it gets warm enough, i would think that you could put the empty frames in the middle.

disclaimor: i hope i'm alright discussing this stuff in the commercial forum. i'm semi-commercial or sideliner with an llc and tax id #, and i am also selecting for profitability.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

Tim Ives said:


> Don't ever try playing the Futures market then......


Futures markets (involving physical goods) have to be for _*fungible *_goods. For those selling treatment free honey at premium prices, that honey is not fungible as a _commodity_, and there is no Futures market. 

We were talking about honey, weren't we?


----------



## Barry

squarepeg said:


> disclaimor: i hope i'm alright discussing this stuff in the commercial forum. i'm semi-commercial or sideliner with an llc and tax id #, and i am also selecting for profitability.


No, you first have to own a hummerbee to post in here! :lookout:


----------



## squarepeg

jim lyon said:


> No offense taken. Respect must be earned, it's never awarded.
> No, I don't believe there is any direct relationship between the carbohydrate source bees use to winter on and overwintering success as long as the feed is given early enough that the bees can properly orient and store it. Some honeys are very good winter feed some not so good. In very cold climates a hard granulating honey may be much worse than pure fructose or sucrose. Same can be said for pollen, in a perfect beekeeping area with plentiful and varied pollen sources there would be no need for pollen supplements, such is not the case for all though. Excluders? They are both a great tool and a potential swarming trigger. The key is how they are used, when they are used and how the hive is set up. I try to limit my posts to relating some things that I have done right and wrong through my decades in the business and not as someone with all the answers. What has been successful for me may or may not work for someone else in an entirely different climate and forage area. There are too many variables to make absolute statements about most things beekeeping.


excellent answer jim, and thank you very much for taking the time.

i agree. like with all things beekeeping 'it depends', there's not a right vs. wrong, but rather the solution must be appropriate to the circumstances and desired outcome.

consider this:

if the greatest threat to colony survival is mites,
and if this is effected primarily through the spread of viruses and other pathogens,
and if natural immunity to infections provides measurable resistance and promotes survival,
and if natural immunity is effected primarily through diet and the microbiota of the hive,
and unless it is necessary to make up for some shortfall due to poor location or bad weather,

then it seems appropriate to not interfere by introducing artificial feeds to the mix.

i am not afraid that i will be doing my bees irreparable harm by giving them syrup or pollen sub if needed. 

my approach has been to keep a few frames of honey in the freezer on hand, as well as redistribute honey in the yard as needed to make sure no ones starves.

would any of this make sense with 1000 hives and all the rest of the work that goes into migratory beekeeping. probably not.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> No, you first have to own a hummerbee to post in here!

Wait til Keith sees that ....


----------



## Tim Ives

Barry said:


> No, "difference is nil" are the key words.


In your case "yes"


----------



## jim lyon

squarepeg said:


> excellent answer jim, and thank you very much for taking the time.
> 
> i agree. like with all things beekeeping 'it depends', there's not a right vs. wrong, but rather the solution must be appropriate to the circumstances and desired outcome.
> .


Bingo! There are lots and lots of things I could do to my bees to make bigger and better hives but the question to doing it commercially is always "what is the payback? 
Of course, despite what some claim everyone is free to post on the commercial forum (whether you own a Hummerbee or not). It's just that everyone needs to read the small print under the heading Commercial Forum. 
I quote. "Focus is on income and cost/time efficiencies pros/cons of certain practices and other practices more of concern to those making their primary income from bees".
That should be the context of the discussions on here. In other words (as I understand it) you don't need to be a commercial you just need to think like one.....and not be offended if the cost/time efficiencies you may advocate are challenged.


----------



## squarepeg

jim lyon said:


> Bingo! There are lots and lots of things I could do to my bees to make bigger and better hives but the question to doing it commercially is always "what is the payback?
> Of course, despite what some claim everyone is free to post on the commercial forum (whether you own a Hummerbee or not). It's just that everyone needs to read the small print under the heading Commercial Forum.
> I quote. "Focus is on income and cost/time efficiencies pros/cons of certain practices and other practices more of concern to those making their primary income from bees".
> That should be the context of the discussions on here. In other words (as I understand it) you don't need to be a commercial you just need to think like one.....and not be offended if the cost/time efficiencies you may advocate are challenged.


yep. how'd you like that 'selecting for profitability' comment?


----------



## Oldtimer

Tim Ives said:


> Like it or not, I get my point across....


You think?

All I've got out of this is a bunch of poorly spelled and garbled mostly one liners that go along the lines of - I'm so great cos my bees do this, whadayoursdo?

I spent a few pages trying to piece it all together plus get a straight answer to some simple questions, but saw it was not going to happen, notice I've not been around the thread much lately? One thing I'd like to know is if you get more honey than I do. But straight answers to the questions that would take are instead a series of one line punches that never nail down the facts.

What are you like in real life? Your favourite TV programs would be Dirty Harry and SledgeHammer, right?


----------



## WLC

He's using a handheld.

Tim is a 'thumbcrack' addict. 

It's as if he's 'tweeting'.


----------



## squarepeg

in my view tim gets more honey because there is more honey to get and he has positioned his yards to exploit that.

his latitude is perfect for a mild enough winter and an uninterrupted summer flow, and he has done well to come up with a hive configuration that maxes out what a colony can do under these circumstances.

add to that the fact that he has recruited enough able bodied help to work and harvest from those tall stacks and there you have it.

what is your average lbs./hive tim? (just counting the production hives and not the splits)


----------



## WLC

From what I understand, Tim has an overproduction problem as well as a cashflow cap.

He's describing something that's limiting his growth potential.

It's not the worst problem in the world to have as long as he's satisfied with the way things are going.

However, he's going to have to figure things out before he can take it to the next level.

You can't expand without the woodenware +.

From my perspective, he's got at least 1,000 hive bodies, or 1,500 supers locked up in honey stores. (15,000 lbs.)

And, I don't know how many splits might be 'buried' under the stack in the tower hive configuration.

It's an interesting dilemma.


----------



## Tim Ives

WLC said:


> From what I understand, Tim has an overproduction problem as well as a cashflow cap.
> 
> He's describing something that's limiting his growth potential.
> 
> It's not the worst problem in the world to have as long as he's satisfied with the way things are going.
> 
> However, he's going to have to figure things out before he can take it to the next level.
> 
> You can't expand without the woodenware +.
> 
> From my perspective, he's got about 1,000 hive bodies, or 1,500 supers locked up in honey stores.
> 
> And, I don't know how many splits might be 'buried' under the stack in the tower hive configuration.
> 
> It's an interesting dilemma.


That would be correct WLC. Woodenware has been my problem for past few years. I'm debt free with $500k worth of properties. So do I go into debt and then try to get back ahead of the game?


----------



## WLC

Well, we all know that going into debt requires a projected increase in asset value to come out the other side in one piece.

I don't think that anyone would give you a mere $50,000 loan with $500k in assets.

It's better that you allow your hives to pay for themselves as well as any growth.

As I see it, since honey production is your main bag, I would dedicate a % of that to any and all new assets.

That way, you won't be burying yourself in debt, and 'the pinch' won't hurt any more than you can stand.

From the numbers you're reporting, 5% of all honey revenues would be a safe way to start.

It's slow enough to give you a chance to figure out the logistics, but it will get the ball rolling.

Let your honey production determine your growth rate, for now.


----------



## Tim Ives

WLC said:


> Well, we all know that going into debt requires a projected increase in asset value to come out the other side in one piece.
> 
> I don't think that anyone would give you a mere $50,000 loan with $500k in assets.
> 
> It's better that you allow your hives to pay for themselves as well as any growth.
> 
> As I see it, since honey production is your main bag, I would dedicate a % of that to any and all new assets.
> 
> That way, you won't be burying yourself in debt, and 'the pinch' won't hurt any more than you can stand.
> 
> From the numbers you're reporting, 5% of all honey revenues would be a safe way to start.
> 
> It's slow enough to give you a chance to figure out the logistics, but it will get the ball rolling.
> 
> Let your honey production determine your growth rate, for now.


Pretty much has to this point, along with reclaimed lumber from couple different sources. But there's a point where milling boxes will no longer be feasible vs buying, even if lumber is from sweat equity.


----------



## hpm08161947

Tim Ives said:


> That would be correct WLC. Woodenware has been my problem for past few years. I'm debt free with $500k worth of properties. So do I go into debt and then try to get back ahead of the game?


A little debt can be a good thing, it helps establish that good credit rating..... but debt free sure has a nice ring to it.

If you were to invest would it just be in woodenware, or would you want to explore a semi load of bees coming out of the almonds... $50K.... then convert them into Ives Hives...?


----------



## ryan

WLC and Tim

You have expressed great confidence in your set system up until this point. Low winter bee losses, no feed cost, no migratory expense, 400 pound crops, premium price paid for your honey. I have had a hard time getting a clear picture of what your system is. I'm sure I understand less about your finances than I do about your bees. That's all fine. Share what you want. 

Woodenware would only cost about $300 a hive. You are generating over $1000 every year per hive. I don't see much of a cash flow issue. I don't understand the caution you express about taking on some short term debt. Noting the confidence you've expressed with your bees, I'm surprised you wouldn't sell an asset, that may only improve by 10% annually, and buy more bee stuff that is realizing 100% return and more. 

I'm sure your evaluation is correct. I'm just letting you know I can't follow your story very well. I respect your choice to keep it that way if you choose.

ryan


----------



## WLC

Tim hasn't really said anything about his silent partners.

So, I think it's a conversation he needs to have with them.

"How do we expand the operation?" is the question.


----------



## squarepeg

it seems like all of the good locations would become saturated at some point, and we are all at the mercy of wacky weather.

as volume increases so do expenditures, be they fiscal, physical, or psychological. a point of diminishing return can be reached.

bigger is not necessarily better.


----------



## Tim Ives

ryan said:


> WLC and Tim
> 
> You have expressed great confidence in your set system up until this point. Low winter bee losses, no feed cost, no migratory expense, 400 pound crops, premium price paid for your honey. I have had a hard time getting a clear picture of what your system is. I'm sure I understand less about your finances than I do about your bees. That's all fine. Share what you want.
> 
> Woodenware would only cost about $300 a hive. You are generating over $1000 every year per hive. I don't see much of a cash flow issue. I don't understand the caution you express about taking on some short term debt. Noting the confidence you've expressed with your bees, I'm surprised you wouldn't sell an asset, that may only improve by 10% annually, and buy more bee stuff that is realizing 100% return and more.
> 
> I'm sure your evaluation is correct. I'm just letting you know I can't follow your story very well. I respect your choice to keep it that way if you choose.
> 
> ryan


Understandable only getting part of the story typing away with a sore thumb.

One of the assets, I'm able to sell if I ever get away from the bees long enough. But them proceeds will get rolled into my new honey house. I'm unable to efficiently process now. Next year I'll have double to process at present rate.


----------



## WLC

He already has a crew, and he's already using a distributive model with his 'disciples'.

Tim isn't just out there on his lonesome.

They just have to work out the next step.


----------



## WLC

"But them proceeds will get rolled into my new honey house. I'm unable to efficiently process now. Next year I'll have double to process at present rate."

I think that it's O.K. to let someone process your honey for you. Especially if you can max out their capacity.

Once they're maxed out, find another honey house and do the same. Etc., etc. .

By the way, you don't have to be the fella driving a truckload of supers to a honey house for extraction.

Do you follow? Frankly, if you're growing so quickly, I don't think that you want to deal with constantly adding/supersizing equipment to keep up with capacity.

I'm saying that unless you've maxed out every honey house within range, there's a better way to use your revenues.


----------



## Tim Ives

WLC said:


> Tim hasn't really said anything about his silent partners.
> 
> So, I think it's a conversation he needs to have with them.
> 
> "How do we expand the operation?" is the question.


One problem here WLC.

The main partner, retired age 71. Currently 70-80 hives, doesn't want more then 100 and has enough supers to contain everything.


----------



## Oldtimer

The kind of honey crop you claim per hive, x's the premium price you claim, must = $1,000 + per hive annually, maybe double that.

I don't see the cash flow problem.

I've seen beekeepers going into debt, although my personal opinion is build up as money generated allows, no debt.

But the figures you are talking about, debt is no issue. Not going into debt would allow a reasonable rate of increase also.


----------



## WLC

I think that the way Tim and Co. are operating doesn't really provide for operating capital.

Real simple, everyone ponies up 5% of their cut of the revenues for expansion. They either provide the new equipment, or the cash for a pool of funds.

You're only going to expand from 6-12 hives a year this way, and the extra equipment/honey should cover the 5% 'vig' within a year with growth built in from then on.


----------



## Tim Ives

WLC said:


> I think that the way Tim and Co. are operating doesn't really provide for operating capital.
> 
> Real simple, everyone ponies up 5% of their cut of the revenues for expansion. They either provide the new equipment, or the cash for a pool of funds.
> 
> You're only going to expand from 6-12 hives a year this way, and the extra equipment/honey should cover the 5% 'vig' within a year with growth built in from then on.


I have the lumber for 300 HB and around 600 supers. Also have 240 queen mating nucs already milled for next year.


----------



## WLC

How about the frames, foundation, bottom & top boards, inner covers, etc., etc.?

I think it's great that you're growing.

However, I think that it's not really structured like a company/business.

It's as if it just kind of happened all of a sudden.

Are you an LLC?


----------



## ryan

Get rid of the partners. Buy as much as you need to do it on your own. You have a system in place that has worked for years. Take the plunge. I'm surprised there is even a question about it.


----------



## Tim Ives

WLC said:


> How about the frames, foundation, bottom & top boards, inner covers, etc., etc.?
> 
> I think it's great that you're growing.
> 
> However, I think that it's not really structured like a company/business.
> 
> It's as if it just kind of happened all of a sudden.
> 
> Are you an LLC?


Frames/foundation for about half. Inners/bottoms milled not assembled. Need tops, contemplating migratory vs telescope.

Yes just kinda happened with a bunch of live bees each spring and construction jobs down. 

LLC. Yes .....


----------



## Ian

Tim Ives said:


> By using a excluder you're going into winters with dramatically less pollen stores because you kept the bees competeing the comb space to brood and not pollen. Less spring build up less population less honey. So how are you figuring?????


less pollen stores? you do know where the pollen is stored, right?


----------



## Tim Ives

ryan said:


> Get rid of the partners. Buy as much as you need to do it on your own. You have a system in place that has worked for years. Take the plunge. I'm surprised there is even a question about it.



We all have our own hives, we just help each other pull supers is all.


----------



## Tim Ives

Ian said:


> less pollen stores? you do know where the pollen is stored, right?


Don't know about your hives, but mine is mostly in the bottom deep.


----------



## WLC

It's a pretty common story. All of a sudden things just take off.

At least you have most of the pieces of the puzzle together.

It looks like the only thing you need to be sure is in place is an operating budget.

It's going to have to be a sizeable chunk of your revenues if you're going to keep growing the way your going.

Like I've said, it's good to have that kind of growth pressure and not enough equipment.

It means that you've reached a threshold.

It's certainly better than having a ton of equipment and no bees.

Just go over the books/statements to see where/how you can pull together an operating budget that can keep you growing.

There's got to be something there that you don't need.


----------



## Ian

Tim Ives said:


> Don't know about your hives, but mine is mostly in the bottom deep.


yup, two good frames of pollen on the outside, rimmed with honey. with or without excluders. 
like I said, if you know how to use them, the difference is nil


----------



## Ian

Oldtimer said:


> I've seen beekeepers going into debt, although my personal opinion is build up as money generated allows, no debt.


If a beekeeper or business owner wants to progress his business in any manner they will have to realize the fact that financing is one of our greatest tools.


----------



## WLC

The assets are there. So is the revenue.
Something needs to be shuffled around somewhere. It's often about timing.


----------



## Tim Ives

Ian said:


> yup, two good frames of pollen on the outside, rimmed with honey. with or without excluders.
> like I said, if you know how to use them, the difference is nil


Bottom deep 50-60% solid pollen frames 20-30% honey drawn empty 10%, 2nd deep 50-60% honey 20% pollen drawn empty 30%, 3 rd deep 95% honey5% pollen. Vs 2 Frames??????


----------



## Barry

So what does this mean for everyone else? Pollen is dependent on location.


----------



## deejaycee

Tim Ives said:


> Bottom deep 50-60% solid pollen frames 20-30% honey drawn empty 10%, 2nd deep 50-60% honey 20% pollen drawn empty 30%, 3 rd deep 95% honey5% pollen. Vs 2 Frames??????


Tim, where's the brood? And what part of the year are you talking about?

One frame (10%) in the bottom box, and 3 (30%) in the second box? That doesn't add up to the earlier mentioned amount of brood (was it 18 or 22 frames I think?)


----------



## Tim Ives

deejaycee said:


> Tim, where's the brood? And what part of the year are you talking about?
> 
> One frame (10%) in the bottom box, and 3 (30%) in the second box? That doesn't add up to the earlier mentioned amount of brood (was it 18 or 22 frames I think?)


Going into winter...


----------



## Tim Ives

Barry said:


> So what does this mean for everyone else? Pollen is dependent on location.


No....... What did I say about using a queen excluder?????


----------



## Barry

You're ignoring what I said. "No", pollen isn't dependent on location? What I believe you are trying to infer is that Ian would have as much pollen as you get (what ever that actually is) if he managed his hives like yours. Is this correct?


----------



## Tim Ives

Barry said:


> You're ignoring what I said. "No", pollen isn't dependent on location? What I believe you are trying to infer is that Ian would have as much pollen as you get (what ever that actually is) if he managed his hives like yours. Is this correct?


I said using a excluder you're going into winter with dramatically less pollen stores. That statement has NOTHING to do with location.


----------



## Tim Ives

Barry said:


> You're ignoring what I said. "No", pollen isn't dependent on location? What I believe you are trying to infer is that Ian would have as much pollen as you get (what ever that actually is) if he managed his hives like yours. Is this correct?


Less pollen is just one minor negative recourse. But since you know bees so well, you already know what the other major negative recourse is.


----------



## jim lyon

I feel one of the major advantages of excluders is that virtually all your pollen is stored beneath the excluder and none is taken off with your extracting supers. It makes for much better extracting comb and greatly diminishes the threat of shb and wax moth in stored comb.


----------



## Tim Ives

jim lyon said:


> I feel one of the major advantages of excluders is that virtually all your pollen is stored beneath the excluder and none is taken off with your extracting supers. It makes for much better extracting comb and greatly diminishes the threat of shb and wax moth in stored comb.




????????? What pollen in the extracting supers???????


----------



## Roland

Tim wrote:

You're using TWO brood boxes, not one. 

I believe way back you stated that confining the queen to one deep did not make a large enough population. You said nothing about confining he brood to one deep. I am merely pointing out that confining the queen to one deep is not a limitation to her ability to lay eggs, but can actually be the opposite, a way to keep empty frames in front of her.


Squarepeg - look for a PM.

Crazy Roland, 5th gen. commercial beekeeper
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


----------



## jim lyon

Sorry Tim I'm not here to swap one liners with you. I made an observation based on extensive experience running bees both with and without excluders, I didn't say excluders weren't without their drawbacks but what I did say was pretty straightforward and self explanatory....and also correct. Excluders greatly diminish shb and wax moth problems in stored comb because those pests first and foremost are attracted by pollen.


----------



## Tim Ives

Roland said:


> Tim wrote:
> 
> You're using TWO brood boxes, not one.
> 
> I believe way back you stated that confining the queen to one deep did not make a large enough population. You said nothing about confining he brood to one deep. I am merely pointing out that confining the queen to one deep is not a limitation to her ability to lay eggs, but can actually be the opposite, a way to keep empty frames in front of her.
> 
> 
> Squarepeg - look for a PM.
> 
> Crazy Roland, 5th gen. commercial beekeeper
> Linden Apiary, est. 1852


Fair enough argument. Didn't realize 2 deeps equals one...My bad


----------



## Ian

Tim Ives said:


> Bottom deep 50-60% solid pollen frames 20-30% honey drawn empty 10%, 2nd deep 50-60% honey 20% pollen drawn empty 30%, 3 rd deep 95% honey5% pollen. Vs 2 Frames??????


Wow, 6-7 frames of solid pollen in your wintering hive, hungry hives!
even when I ran doubles, I never had hives with that much pollen stores, thats a lot of pollen. Kinda makes for a pollen bound nest dont you think

The only time the queen needs two boxes of space is during the spring build up period, the rest of the time she is content in singles, along with enough pollen to satisfy the hives late late wintering needs. 

My hives were stacked up to eight boxes tall, harvested twice over a two month period. All working off of two nicely stored frames of pollen, rimmed with honey managed in a single box. Having seven frames of pollen in there would not of produced any better preforming hives. 

stored pollen has nothing to do with excluders, well, except keeping it all out of the supers...


----------



## Ian

Barry said:


> You're ignoring what I said. "No", pollen isn't dependent on location? What I believe you are trying to infer is that Ian would have as much pollen as you get (what ever that actually is) if he managed his hives like yours. Is this correct?


Barry my hives would not store that much pollen for winter, even if they were managed at his location. I have abundant pollen flows here, and the only time a hive will pack its nest with as much pollen as Tim is suggesting is when a large hive runs queenless, where as the bees will pack the brood nest with pollen stores. Those frames have to be removed before a new queen can be established, otherwise there is no place for the queen to establish her brood nest


----------



## Ian

Tim Ives said:


> Less pollen is just one minor negative recourse. But since you know bees so well, you already know what the other major negative recourse is.


Tims credibility scale, sliding faster and faster


----------



## Tim Ives

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-1/


----------



## Ian

Tim Ives said:


> Bottom deep 50-60% solid pollen frames


If each frame of pollen weighs 2 lbs, each one of your hives winter on 10 plus pounds of pollen, all thanks to not using excluders ....


----------



## Barry

Ian said:


> Barry my hives would not store that much pollen for winter, even if they were managed at his location. I have abundant pollen flows here, and the only time a hive will pack its nest with as much pollen as Tim is suggesting is when a large hive runs queenless,


Ian, I know a lot of locations have abundant pollen available at the times bees need it, but I was thinking about those commercial beekeepers that don't have adequate pollen to raise large amounts of bees on, like California getting ready for almonds. Doesn't matter how you manage your bees if there simply isn't pollen available, correct? Sounds like we have a similar situation for pollen. My hives can get pollen bound as there is always pollen available to the bees.


----------



## Tim Ives

Ian said:


> Tims credibility scale, sliding faster and faster


So you know the answer then? 


Credibility?? I Don't care !!.. I'm not the one feeding, treating, or losing bees.

I'm not even selling anything.

Crystal clear why Honeybees are in Peril.


----------



## sqkcrk

Human intervention?


----------



## Tim Ives

sqkcrk said:


> Human intervention?


My first 6 years I had bees according to what people said to do. After doing several cutouts where bees had unlimited space, I started seeing common denominators of what the bees did. I started keeping bees within their limitations and let them bee. Past 7 years I adjusted to what they're doing and not making them do something because its convenient for me. 

Human intervention? 
Human convenience? 
Greed?
The Secret?


----------



## Ian

so,

you keep your hives without feeding, treating, or losing bees
your hives grow to population levels far beyond what the queen can actually achieve, and without swarming being an issue
your hives are the only hives I have ever heard of collecting nearly 100lbs per hive of Blueberry honey, 30 hives off 15 acres I think was said
they store 5 frames of pollen under a full box of honey, somehow providing enough space for the queen to maintain her summer and fall time nest

what else did I miss, 

sounds like you hit on the secret of beekeeping!


----------



## Tim Ives

Ian said:


> so,
> 
> you keep your hives without feeding, treating, or losing bees
> your hives grow to population levels far beyond what the queen can actually achieve, and without swarming being an issue
> your hives are the only hives I have ever heard of collecting nearly 100lbs per hive of Blueberry honey, 30 hives off 15 acres I think was said
> they store 5 frames of pollen under a full box of honey, somehow providing enough space for the queen to maintain her summer and fall time nest
> 
> what else did I miss,
> 
> sounds like you hit on the secret of beekeeping!


Far beyond what Queens can obtain? Humor me on what you think this number is?

Not sure why 90# averages off Blueberries is a big deal?

Summer brood middle/bottom deep. They backfill bottom deep with pollen. Once brood emerges in middle deep, they'll start backfilling it. Broodless by Oct.


----------



## sqkcrk

Tim Ives said:


> Not sure why 90# averages off Blueberries is a big deal?


Obviously not a big deal for you, but no one else has ever done it. The last time I was able to even buy any blueberry from folks pollinating blueberries in Maine was 5 years or more ago. I can't even get 90 lbs of honey on average from my hives for the year. So, it just seems really unusual. You are one in 21,000.

Just so I understand for sure about your blueberry crop, you extracted about 1350 lbs of honey from your 15 hives?


----------



## Ian

I think it was 200,000 bees in your hives, your claiming the queens are maintaining, third year queens to boot

you mention all your hives were able to consistantly maintain this size of hive, 
typically hives will naturally swarm with this kind of hive populations. Its just their natural instinct. Maintaining a season long 18 frame brood cycle seems like a story to me. 
Visit the coffee shop much?

but I guess your hives dont swarm either.


----------



## WLC

Try and remember he's using hybrids and a different hive configuration.

I find some of the behaviors he's describing interesting.


----------



## Ian

Explain the different hive configuration to me. I missed it earlier. From what I gathered, he uses a three deep box brood nest


----------



## Ian

Absolutely all the behaviors he is describing fall into the exaggerated column


----------



## WLC

You have to start with resistant stock that many of you would have re-queened from the get go.

They're more feral than domestic. No, I wouldn't call them Apis mellifera ligustica.

We're not really talking about the domestic species you're used to.

It looks to me like they do behave differently in an unlimited broodnest hive.


----------



## squarepeg

WLC said:


> We're not really talking about the domestic species you're used to.


could that be why the average life span of tim's queens is five years despite the large volume of brood they produce?


----------



## Tim Ives

Ian said:


> I think it was 200,000 bees in your hives, your claiming the queens are maintaining, third year queens to boot
> 
> you mention all your hives were able to consistantly maintain this size of hive,
> typically hives will naturally swarm with this kind of hive populations. Its just their natural instinct. Maintaining a season long 18 frame brood cycle seems like a story to me.
> Visit the coffee shop much?
> 
> but I guess your hives dont swarm either.


Pre 2010 I had problems with swarming. But I figured out how to dramatically reduce the swarming probability. Drawn comb entices hoarding behavior and new supers keep wax builders depleted. Cant just throw 7 brand new supers on, they'll swarm. Supers have to be cleared after the flows and put back on ASAP.


----------



## Tim Ives

Ian said:


> Absolutely all the behaviors he is describing fall into the exaggerated column


Better look ay my YouTube hive again and tell me what the population is going to be after just 1 more brood cycle.


----------



## WLC

You need to familiarize yourself with his theories on swarm control and nutritional status/sub-castes.

I like his concepts, although I still have some 'semantic' issues.

I'm interested in having a sustainable/permaculture hive myself.

I like probiotic concepts. I'm also interested in the developing hybrid swarm here in the U.S. .


----------



## Daniel Y

Tim Ives said:


> So you know the answer then?
> 
> 
> Credibility?? I Don't care !!.. I'm not the one feeding, treating, or losing bees.
> 
> I'm not even selling anything.
> 
> Crystal clear why Honeybees are in Peril.


Tim, You remind me of teh guy tat sat across the banquet table from me last Saturday night. He leaned across the table toward me. staring straight at me, With all seriousness he whispered. "I know whats killing all them bees". Well as you can imagine I dropped my fork into my plate and lost all interest in that delectable prime rib. And focused myself entirely on gaining this most valuable bits of information. I replied "What would that be"? He then begain with all the stealth of someone imparting information pertaining to national security. "It's the earths magnetic field, it's shifting". "Flippin clean over so the north is south and the south is north". I let my jaw drop just a bit to indicate my complete surprise. "Really" I said. "Yep, sure is. those bees can't navigate home cause the magnetic field changes to much between the time the leave the hive and when they start heading back". I wanted to ask him just where all those bees where keeping their compasses but I was already having a hard enough time holding a straight face.

Okay I am just razzing you cause I just had to share that story. The story really did happen.


----------



## squarepeg

Tim Ives said:


> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fat-bees-part-1/
> 
> Read this to help understand the behavior.


i've read it tim, good article. 

to average five years means that some queens live even longer than that. that's record breaking

one would think that a queen can only hold a finite amount of drone sperm, and that the demand for that sperm in your large colonies would limit the queen's life span rather than lengthen it.


----------



## clyderoad

it seems like birds of a feather do flock together


----------



## Tim Ives

Daniel Y said:


> Tim, You remind me of teh guy tat sat across the banquet table from me last Saturday night. He leaned across the table toward me. staring straight at me, With all seriousness he whispered. "I know whats killing all them bees". Well as you can imagine I dropped my fork into my plate and lost all interest in that delectable prime rib. And focused myself entirely on gaining this most valuable bits of information. I replied "What would that be"? He then begain with all the stealth of someone imparting information pertaining to national security. "It's the earths magnetic field, it's shifting". "Flippin clean over so the north is south and the south is north". I let my jaw drop just a bit to indicate my complete surprise. "Really" I said. "Yep, sure is. those bees can't navigate home cause the magnetic field changes to much between the time the leave the hive and when they start heading back". I wanted to ask him just where all those bees where keeping their compasses but I was already having a hard enough time holding a straight face.
> 
> Okay I am just razzing you cause I just had to share that story. The story really did happen.


LOL... Comical.... It's a good story, thanks for the laugh.....


----------



## sqkcrk

Some people don't know what the word average means or how to calculate an average.


----------



## Ian

squarepeg said:


> one would think that a queen can only hold a finite amount of drone sperm, and that the demand for that sperm in your large colonies would limit the queen's life span rather than lengthen it.


Tims queens probably have the ability to store an infinite amount of drone sperm


----------



## Tim Ives

squarepeg said:


> i've read it tim, good article.
> 
> to average five years means that some queens live even longer than that. that's record breaking
> 
> one would think that a queen can only hold a finite amount of drone sperm, and that the demand for that sperm in your large colonies would limit the queen's life span rather than lengthen it.


Yes...that would be my assessment. So if I was to limit her room by using a excluder vs free reign. Theoretically that should prolong her years??? But then you would be coming out of winter with less Vg rich bees by limiting her.


----------



## Ian

Tim Ives said:


> Pre 2010 I had problems with swarming. But I figured out how to dramatically reduce the swarming probability. Drawn comb entices hoarding behavior and new supers keep wax builders depleted. Cant just throw 7 brand new supers on, they'll swarm. Supers have to be cleared after the flows and put back on ASAP.


and thats how you manage swarming? You manage hives with a population of 200000 bees and your swarm control strategy is clearing out the supers and putting them back on ASAP?!


----------



## Daniel Y

Well the volume of sperm a queen can hold is finite. and in a poorly mated queen this can be a problem. case in point is the drone layer. Btu for the adequately mated queen I believe that this limit far exceeds any possible number of eggs she could lay. So unless you have some expectation of your queen living 20 years or something like that. limited sperm is not going to become an issue.

For some reason I have the 8 million in my head for the number of sperm. If a queen did contain that many it means she could lay 1500 fertilized eggs per day for 14.5 years.


----------



## Tim Ives

sqkcrk said:


> Some people don't know what the word average means or how to calculate an average.


Very true... Everything a numbers game to me. The golden ratio which bees use A LOT...


----------



## sqkcrk

I was trying to find that number in The Encyclopedia of Beekeeping and didn't find it. It did say that queens may live three or four years.

No matter how many drones a queen mates w/ the sperm that doesn't fit into the spermatheca gets ejected from the abdomen.


----------



## Tim Ives

Ian said:


> and thats how you manage swarming? You manage hives with a population of 200000 bees and your swarm control strategy is clearing out the supers and putting them back on ASAP?!



You missed the putting them on early and keeping wax builders depleted.


----------



## sqkcrk

Tim Ives said:


> Very true... Everything a numbers game to me. The golden ratio which bees use A LOT...


So did you blueberry hives average 90lbs production or did you get 90 lbs of honey off of the one w/ the most honey and less off of the rest?


----------



## Tim Ives

sqkcrk said:


> So did you blueberry hives average 90lbs production or did you get 90 lbs of honey off of the one w/ the most honey and less off of the rest?


60 to 120... That's not counting the ones a slowed down by making draw comb. 

#1 of wax makes 35,000 cells. Takes close to 100# of honey to make the wax in 7 brand new supers


----------



## Ian

Tim Ives said:


> You missed the putting them on early and keeping wax builders depleted.


old queens swarm ( 3 years and older ), no matter how busy you keep your wax builders. Its not a matter of management, its a matter of WHAT BEES DO


----------



## Ian

Tim Ives said:


> 60 to 120... That's not counting the ones a slowed down by making draw comb.
> 
> #1 of wax makes 35,000 cells. Takes close to 100# of honey to make the wax in 7 brand new supers


why is it all your answers have to be deciphered ? Mark asked is that 90 lbs average, you answered 60-120 not including the slow ones,,?


----------



## sqkcrk

Tim Ives said:


> 60 to 120... That's not counting the ones a slowed down by making draw comb.
> 
> #1 of wax makes 35,000 cells. Takes close to 100# of honey to make the wax in 7 brand new supers


So you aren't counting honey you took from the hives and extracted you are estimating how much honey was produced and consumed too. So you probably didn't produce for extraction any more honey than anyone else made.


----------



## Tim Ives

sqkcrk said:


> So you aren't counting honey you took from the hives and extracted you are estimating how much honey was produced and consumed too. So you probably didn't produce for extraction any more honey than anyone else made.


I'm going by what I extracted and went into buckets.


----------



## Tim Ives

Ian said:


> why is it all your answers have to be deciphered ? Mark asked is that 90 lbs average, you answered 60-120 not including the slow ones,,?


So you don't know what average means? Don't see what needs to be deciphered??


----------



## Oldtimer

I don't think anyone knows how much honey bees consume to make a lb of wax.

However if I say my hives made 100 lb's of honey, I would mean that whatever honey I have extracted, put in the tank, and weighed, divided by the number of hives, ='s 100 lb's.

That's what average means.

Other thing I'm wondering about with these multiple extractions in one season is moisture content.


----------



## Ian

Tim Ives said:


> So you don't know what average means? Don't see what needs to be deciphered??


one hive went 60-the other hive 120 lbs, all the rest were slow ones,
2700 lbs, thats just over 4 barrels of honey right>?

kinda like your hives going into winter with 10 plus lbs of pollen stores, and your hives maintaining over 200000 bees, without swarming troubles, 
all done with no treatments, feed, or losses , 

hand over that coffee please,


----------



## Tim Ives

Ian said:


> one hive went 60-the other hive 120 lbs, all the rest were slow ones,
> 2700 lbs, thats just over 4 barrels of honey right>?
> 
> kinda like your hives going into winter with 10 plus lbs of pollen stores, and your hives maintaining over 200000 bees, without swarming troubles,
> all done with no treatments, feed, or losses ,
> 
> hand over that coffee please,


I don't understand what needs to be deciphered here?????

O wait coffee... Folgers medium blend


----------



## Ian

lets first start with your blueberry honey crop, 4 barrels worth off of 30 hives, sitting on 15 acres of Blueberries?


----------



## Daniel Y

How about this. These year I started with 5 hives one I did not intend to harvest honey from no matter how well it did. So I consider I started with 4 productions hives. during the season In increased to 12 hives via swarm captures. Sold two. In addition I produced another 10 colonies via queen castles or minimal split methods. That is taking two frames of bees brood and provisions and giving them a queen. I also harvested 230 lbs of honey.

Now given that 17 of my 21 hives where never intended to produce any honey. that the 4 colonies that where expected to produce have at times been the support for making the mini splits. had honey removed to support the development of some of those splits or have had fraems of brood taken to produce queens from etc. Some of the swarms that where not expected to produce honey at the beginning of the season. btu by far the majority of my hives could not be excited to nor did they produce one drop of honey for harvest. they have produced honey.

Now do I divide m 230 lbs of honey by 21 to gain my average? Do I divide it by some number between one and 21 that for some arbitrary reasoning seems acceptable? OR do I divide it by only the number of hives that where expected to produce regardless of how many actually produced?

It seems to me that the members of this group lack any ability to wrap their minds around something that includes even a minor degree of complexity. They are obviously unable to just make a determination and stick with it much less establish it as the standard.

I say I averaged 57.5 lbs per hive regardless of those same hives supporting the expansion of my apiary by just over 400%. That those original 4 hives assisted so well that it resulted in additional production of honey is still credited to their performance not the additional colonies.


----------



## Ian

30 hives into the flow, divided by the amount of honey produced.

I manage 900 hives, that number varies from various points of the season, but when calculating average production to measure performance, I use the number of hives entering the flow, regardless of its configuration. Some die off along the way, but the number stands. Im not done yet, but looks like this year my operational yeild will be around the 180lbs mark. I will have had some hives pull off nearly 500 lbs alone, and other nucs that will have given me a couple of boxes. 
so show me the complexity in that, straight up yield estimate , lay it on the line

if someone cant be the slightest bit honust with himself, how can anything that person said be taken seriously?

oh, and I have also drawn out 900 boxes of foundation, but thats besides the point


----------



## Tim Ives

Ian said:


> lets first start with your blueberry honey crop, 4 barrels worth off of 30 hives, sitting on 15 acres of Blueberries?


With another 80 acres of Blueberries 2.9 miles away.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> It seems to me that the members of _this group_ lack any ability to wrap their minds around something that includes even a minor degree of complexity. 

Hmmm.

Which _group _would that be?


----------



## Ian

Tim Ives said:


> With another 80 acres of Blueberries 2.9 miles away.


with the abundance of crop around, to provide your hives with 10 lbs of pollen stores for winter, what is your average honey yield on those 30 hives?
those 30 hives sporting the 18 brood frame 200000 bee population nest


----------



## Ian

I have seen hives with foraging forces of probably 75 to 100000 bees, I know what these hives can accomplish when they have the resources infrount of them. You must be swimming in honey by the end of the season


----------



## Tim Ives

Ian said:


> 30 hives into the flow, divided by the amount of honey produced.
> 
> I manage 900 hives, that number varies from various points of the season, but when calculating average production to measure performance, I use the number of hives entering the flow, regardless of its configuration. Some die off along the way, but the number stands. Im not done yet, but looks like this year my operational yeild will be around the 180lbs mark. I will have had some hives pull off nearly 500 lbs alone, and other nucs that will have given me a couple of boxes.
> so show me the complexity in that, straight up yield estimate , lay it on the line
> 
> if someone cant be the slightest bit honust with himself, how can anything that person said be taken seriously?
> 
> oh, and I have also drawn out 900 boxes of foundation, but thats besides the point


Again don't really care what you do or don't believe. A bunch of YouTube videos of my hives and others in area will easily PROVE correct.... You can argue ALL you want. BEEcareful.I'm giving you a lot of rope.......


----------



## jim lyon

Averages are really just for bragging rights. Beekeepers have played games with these numbers for years. In our case it's pretty straightforward, every hive is a production hive and I calculate my average against the number of queenright colonies in our operation at the beginning of the main honeyflow. But that's just me. The only thing that really matters in the final analysis is how much investment in time and money went into your bees and how much income did that investment generate. Whether it is honey, pollination, bees, queens or any other hive product is immaterial. Increased hive numbers are great, and definitely have a value as potential income sometime in the future but until that income is realized it is an asset that is delegated to a lower spot on the balance sheet.


----------



## Ian

Tim Ives said:


> BEEcareful.I'm giving you a lot of rope.......


Ha, a lot of rope, give me a break, 
you bring a lot of exaggerated claims to the table, without anything to qualify the statements with


----------



## Ian

jim lyon said:


> In our case it's pretty straightforward, every hive is a production hive and I calculate my average against the number of queenright colonies in our operation at the beginning of the main honeyflow. But that's just me.


That's how its done. Bragging rights, ya, but you also need to measure production from year to year somehow to be able to achieve targets within your own operation


----------



## Oldtimer

Tim Ives said:


> Again don't really care what you do or don't believe. A bunch of YouTube videos of my hives and others in area will easily PROVE correct.... You can argue ALL you want. BEEcareful.I'm giving you a lot of rope.......


Why not just say it here? I didn't see your averages mentioned on youtube. It's not a trick question Tim I am genuinely interested and so is everyone else.

Otherwise I don't see the point in spending pages hinting that you get a huge honey crop but never giving the real numbers. I've been asked about my honey crop sometimes and it is a very easy question to answer.


----------



## Ian

I see, I quickly skimmed through some of the youtube posts of these hives, 
he is not talking about 30 hives, but rather only a hand full of hives and looked to be variability between those hives 

in the videos the I had seen, posted by Tim Ives, I did not see hives with populations of 200000, if those hives were at peak performance then id say over 75% of my operation houses hives with populations of well over 200000 bees. This year was a slow year for me, and I had my hives stacked eight tall boiling bees from the top. 

Tim, send us a youtube link of the hives your referring to PROVE your statments correct. Id like to see those 18 frames of brood


----------



## Ian

duplicate


----------



## sqkcrk

Tim Ives said:


> I'm going by what I extracted and went into buckets.


Sorry for pestering you about this, but I'll ask again and would appreciate a straight forward unambiguous definitive answer, did you extract 1350 lbs of honey from the hives you had on the blueberries? Thank you.


----------



## sqkcrk

Ian said:


> lets first start with your blueberry honey crop, 4 barrels worth off of 30 hives, sitting on 15 acres of Blueberries?


I don't know where you got 4 barrels from. Didn't Tim report 90 lbs per colony from 15 hives? Do I have to go back and reread his Posts?


----------



## sqkcrk

Daniel Y said:


> How about this. These year I started with 5 hives one I did not intend to harvest honey from no matter how well it did. So I consider I started with 4 productions hives. during the season In increased to 12 hives via swarm captures. Sold two. In addition I produced another 10 colonies via queen castles or minimal split methods. That is taking two frames of bees brood and provisions and giving them a queen. I also harvested 230 lbs of honey.
> 
> Now given that 17 of my 21 hives where never intended to produce any honey. that the 4 colonies that where expected to produce have at times been the support for making the mini splits. had honey removed to support the development of some of those splits or have had fraems of brood taken to produce queens from etc. Some of the swarms that where not expected to produce honey at the beginning of the season. btu by far the majority of my hives could not be excited to nor did they produce one drop of honey for harvest. they have produced honey.
> 
> Now do I divide m 230 lbs of honey by 21 to gain my average? Do I divide it by some number between one and 21 that for some arbitrary reasoning seems acceptable? OR do I divide it by only the number of hives that where expected to produce regardless of how many actually produced?
> 
> It seems to me that the members of this group lack any ability to wrap their minds around something that includes even a minor degree of complexity. They are obviously unable to just make a determination and stick with it much less establish it as the standard.
> 
> I say I averaged 57.5 lbs per hive regardless of those same hives supporting the expansion of my apiary by just over 400%. That those original 4 hives assisted so well that it resulted in additional production of honey is still credited to their performance not the additional colonies.


Daniel, I get a headache translating your "where" in "were", maybe you could work on that?

All I can tell you is how I figure my hive average, qualifying that other than nucs all of my hives are run for honey production. I fill all of my 4 way pallets w/ functional hives, about 550 colonies. I figure out how much honey I have in my buckets when all of the extracting is done. I use those two numbers to come up w/ my Honey Production Per Hive Average.

I have a bunch of two story 5 frame nucs, I don't count them because I never intended to take honey from them.

I used to work at milking cows for a small number of dairy farms during younger years. The herd average for milk production records was taken only on those cows CURRENTLY being milked when the data was collected. Once a month is my recollection. Just showing how different ag industries figure averages in different ways.

If it's important enough for someone to say what their honey production average was they aught to be ready willing ,and able to explain how they came up w/ that number.


----------



## Specialkayme

Daniel Y said:


> [This] year I started with . . . 4 productions hives.
> 
> It seems to me that the members of this group lack any ability to wrap their minds around something that includes even a minor degree of complexity. They are obviously unable to just make a determination and stick with it much less establish it as the standard.


I would be careful Daniel. You are trying to lecture individuals that do this for a living, when you do not.


----------



## Barry

jim lyon said:


> The only thing that really matters in the final analysis is how much investment in time and money went into your bees and how much income did that investment generate. Whether it is honey, pollination, bees, queens or any other hive product is immaterial.


The tax man has the real number! If anyone wants to brag, let them use that number!


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## sqkcrk

Beekeepers talk about pounds per hive so they can avoid revealing dollars per hive which really can't be figured until just before the end of the year or right after. Depending on how well you keep your account books.


----------



## Ian

thought it was 30 hives on 15 acres,



Tim Ives said:


> 30 hives on 15 acres.


----------



## sqkcrk

I'm confused.


----------



## Ian

Its all coffee shop talk, the whole lot of it


----------



## Roland

SQKCRK, you are just dizzy from watching the pea and the 3 shells. (which shell has hte pea under it)

Crazy Roland


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

I put up a calculation sheet which uses the correlation found between outside daily maximum air temperature and egg laying of the honeybee queen. This has been found by the bee scientist Bretschko and verified by the scientists Bergmann & Bergmann, which also developed a formula.

From there you can calculate all sorts of things, like number of capped cells, number of nurse bees and such. Of course those numbers are estimated values only. But nevertheless very useful for hive management. I super the hive with new foundation, when there is a significant number of capped cells hatching. Also I know roughly when they start swarming which is when the ratio between bees and brood starts to sink again under 120 % after peaking in Spring.

The use of the sheet also allows minimal hive inspection, since you know how they develop. Also it allows to discover when somethings going wrong. If you calculated a certain development and it does not happen, somethings going wrong. (Helpful with poisoning incidents.) And so on. Bottom line. I find it useful to backup my gut feeling.

One drawback: you have to estimate the number of bees and brood cells when they start to brood again in the midst of the winter. Which is February here. You do not need to open all hives, though.

PDF:
http://www.immenfreunde.de/docs/HiveDevelopment.pdf

OpenOffice:
http://www.immenfreunde.de/docs/HiveDevelopment.ods

Excel:
http://www.immenfreunde.de/docs/HiveDevelopment.xls

Since this model worked very well for me, I wonder how the numbers compare to Tim's reports.


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## Tim Ives

Ian said:


> thought it was 30 hives on 15 acres,


Correct... What's stopping them from getting into the 80, other than 3 miles? I have no way of verifying that. I do kniw what was extracted.....


----------



## Oldtimer

Oh the suspense......


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## sqkcrk

Which was what? 90 lbs per hive?


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## grozzie2

My head is spinning reading this thread. I guess I'll never understand the nuances here, at least not until I buy a hummerbee.

But, I can figure a few things out, and, I do like Ian's numbers, easy to figure.

(900 x 180 x $per_pound) - $cost = $bragging_rights.

All the other banter, it's just fluff. CRA / IRS are the true judge of who wins the $bragging_rights competition. In the end, it's all about money, not honey, and it's only the taxable part that you can spend on the fun stuff, so that's all that matters in the end, what's the bottom line, taxable, after expenses......

DOH, now it suddenly makes sense, it's september, the month to feed. You guys feed the trolls when it's the season to feed the bees. Suddenly it all starts to make sense.


----------



## Markt

Ian, one thing I would like to take away from this... 'Conjecture' is a little insight into your management style, as it seems to work for you... When you pull 8 deeps off of your single do you add a double brood chamber and winter it that way then bust it back in the spring or just let the extra bees die off? Also do you have trouble forcing that many into a single deep using escapes? Sorry to go off topic


----------



## WLC

I don't think that there's going to be a huge amount of difference in honey production, deep for deep, when comparing standard practices vs what Tim is doing.

However, in terms of commercial operations, Tim is as organic as you can get under the circumstances. His hives are not only sustainable, but Tim has achieved some degree of permaculture.

Let's not forget his use of 'ferals', as well as his use of tower hives.

He's not using treatments of any kind, and he is not using supplemental feeding either. Something I would call probiotic beekeeping.

Add to that that his hives are productive to such an extent, that he's having logistical issues.

I would characterize his form of 'commercial beekeeping' to be so significantly different, that it's something remarkably new.

Don't get stuck on the honey production issue. It's not that important to the bigger picture.

We can only hope that it can be successfully replicated by other beekeepers.

Myself included.

The other stuff is peripheral in my opinion.

There are some recent experiments using bee condos that showed some promise as well.

My point is this: why aren't more of us trying to see if this type of beekeeping works?

There's a very real moral imperative in play here.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

WLC said:


> There's a very real moral imperative in play here.


_Moral imperative? _:scratch: :s :lpf:

This is the _Commercial Beekeeping_ forum. _Grozzie2 _has it about right:



grozzie2 said:


> All the other banter, it's just fluff. CRA / IRS are the true judge of who wins ...


----------



## Jared.Downs

WLC said:


> My point is this: why aren't more of us trying to see if this type of beekeeping works?


@WLC-

I think the people that have been commenting in this thread and those that subscribed to the thread but don't post are very interested in Tim's approach to bee keeping. But want to know the what/why/where/hows to all of it.

Many of the people commenting might just want to understand his methods before investing in this approach. Based on the quantity of woodenware required there would need to be a good amount invested in that. 

(This comment- not meant to be a dig at you) Commercial means this is their livelihood and not everyone wants to make the leap before taking the time to understand. I can relate, I run my own consulting business and if I know an investment I make is sure to pay off then you bet I'm going to make it. If I'm not sure, I want to do everything I can to understand before making the final decision.

It seems like there are many interested in his methods, but are having a hard time piecing together the details. We all have our motives. Some want to know the honey crop while others like myself want to incorporate some of his methods with the methods from other seasoned beekeepers to form a sustainable form of beekeeping for my locale.



@Tim Ives-

Would you be willing to start a new thread that shows / explains a more detailed approach to your bee keeping? 

I've watched you're youtube videos and am blown away with what your doing, but would love to understand some of the key fundamentals to your method. It'd be great to understand your methods on a finer level. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.


----------



## hpm08161947

WLC said:


> I don't think that there's going to be a huge amount of difference in honey production, deep for deep, when comparing standard practices vs what Tim is doing.
> 
> .


If that is the case... how does one live on the standard commercial production of honey from 150 hives. Even with very high premiums for TF honey, it does not seem like enough.


----------



## WLC

Perhaps you don't understand why sustainable forms of commercial beekeeping are a moral rather than a financial imperative.

It's simply because there are too many issues surrounding current forms of commercial beekeeping.

If someone like Tim Ives has achieved a form of sustainable commercial beekeeping, then it becomes the moral thing to do.

If it's also as lucrative, then it can become a best practice.

I've been in the Founders' Room of a LEED Platinum skyscraper that has a recently installed green roof, and a couple of bee hives as well.

It's an example of how a moral imperative can also achieve a financial one. Nearby property values have increased as a result, and it's a model green building.


----------



## squarepeg

WLC said:


> I don't think that there's going to be a huge amount of difference in honey production, deep for deep, when comparing standard practices vs what Tim is doing.



that's the conclusion i came to as well. in my area, in a good year, it's possible to get 5 medium supers of harvestable honey without feeding syrup using a single deep. i think the biggest factor that allows for tim's impressive harvest per hive is that he has found locations that give him 3 months of 'main flow'



WLC said:


> Let's not forget his use of 'ferals', as well as his use of tower hives.



there are a number of us using 'ferals', but none that i know of that are able to work them without protection. a more gentle hive here and a more defensive one there is what seems reasonable. with the genetic diversity that tim has across his operation, it seems incredible that all of his colonies can be worked without protection



WLC said:


> I would characterize his form of 'commercial beekeeping' to be so significantly different, that it's something remarkably new.


not really that different than lusby, webster, et. al., except perhaps finding those exceptional locations



WLC said:


> My point is this: why aren't more of us trying to see if this type of beekeeping works?



this is the commercial forum wlc, you and i aren't part of 'us'. i think tim probably has gotten the attention of some of the bigger honey producers, although his methods may not be applicable to all locations



WLC said:


> There's a very real moral imperative in play here.


are you serious? shall we ban eating chicken while we're at it?

i'm still trying to understand the mechanism for tim's five years and more on queen longevity.


----------



## WLC

I would love to achieve sustainable permaculture with a tower hive with hybrid Honeybees.

Don't forget, I've got marked/clipped queens in my hives. I mean the BeeWeavers (commercial queens).

N'ya Ha!

PS-You posted your comments inside the quote bubble. Not outside.


----------



## Ian

Markt said:


> Ian, one thing I would like to take away from this... 'Conjecture' is a little insight into your management style, as it seems to work for you... When you pull 8 deeps off of your single do you add a double brood chamber and winter it that way then bust it back in the spring or just let the extra bees die off? Also do you have trouble forcing that many into a single deep using escapes? Sorry to go off topic


I do not add a chamber to my hive arrangement. I manage my hives in singles for most of the year, except for a few weeks I let the queen wander into the second chamber (1st super) to lay until I shake her back down and add an excluder as I prepare for the honey pull. 
There are a lot of bees to fit into the single chamber, but its all about timing. Here the queen starts to slow down brood production in Aug and into Sept. As we push the bees down into the single in September, a lot of those summer foraging bees have died off already, but still see beards on the hives all the same. Those bees die off throughout September, and by the time we move the hives into storage in November the winter cluster is mostly what we see. 
I managed both single and double arrangements for many years. the doubles would tend to go into winter with larger cluster. I found that the cluster in both arrangements were mostly the same by spring.


----------



## squarepeg

Ian said:


> I managed both single and double arrangements for many years. the doubles would tend to go into winter with larger cluster. I found that the cluster in both arrangements were mostly the same by spring.


very interesting ian. do you find spring build up is stronger when more stores are left for overwintering?


----------



## Ian

squarepeg said:


> very interesting ian. do you find spring build up is stronger when more stores are left for overwintering?


no, spring build up is totally dependent on the type of weather we get to work with. AND the quality of queen
But, you have to realize Im supplementing my bees with feed. Where as Tim doesnt, so the need to hold so much food stores in reserve


----------



## squarepeg

WLC said:


> I would love to achieve sustainable permaculture with a tower hive with hybrid Honeybees.
> 
> Don't forget, I've got marked/clipped queens in my hives.
> 
> N'ya Ha!


no reason why you shouldn't be able to get that wlc, but some would argue that artificial supercedure isn't exactly sustainable, although i agree it's a good idea in your urban setting.


----------



## squarepeg

Ian said:


> no, spring build up is totally dependent on the type of weather we get to work with. AND the quality of queen
> But, you have to realize Im supplementing my bees with feed. Where as Tim doesnt, so the need to hold so much food stores in reserve


understood, many thanks.


----------



## Ian

Tim Ives said:


> A bunch of YouTube videos of my hives and others in area will easily PROVE correct....


all im seeing is hives stacked with boxes with some bees in them, and some honey, seeing the brood nest, and those 18 frames of brood would PROVE correct,

unless I missed one of the videos you posted, Link?


----------



## WLC

squarepeg said:


> no reason why you shouldn't be able to get that wlc, but some would argue that artificial supercedure isn't exactly sustainable, although i agree it's a good idea in your urban setting.


I don't want supersedure, period. I want to use a commercial source of queens that fit the requirements.

If it works with this type of beekeeping, then it's a win-win.


----------



## squarepeg

'artificial supercedure' = you are requeening and not letting the bees do it. not really natural, not really sustainable in the sense of not requiring outside 'sustainance'.


----------



## squarepeg

GuyDurden said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> So I may come across as an idiot, dreamer, etc, but I want to become a commercial beekeeper.


i wonder if guy still wants to become a commercial beekeeper?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> PS-You posted your comments inside the quote bubble. Not outside.

That was _squarepeg's _*moral imperative!*


----------



## sqkcrk

sqkcrk said:


> Be careful what u wish for.


Like I said.

If it's too hot, get outa the bee yard.

Figures don't lie, but ,,,

How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm once they have seen Parie?

Everything is sustainable as long as one is willing and able to change as is needed.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Carlos Danger!!


----------



## squarepeg

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > PS-You posted your comments inside the quote bubble. Not outside.
> 
> That was _squarepeg's _*moral imperative!*


is there an easy way to get them outside the bubble with out having to type in the formatting?


----------



## squarepeg

figured it out graham and fixed it, thanks.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> is there an easy way to get them outside the bubble with out having to type in the formatting?

Well, that depends on what you mean by _easy _...

You don't actually have to type the formatting, copy-n-paste is what I use. But the approach you used is probably the simplest.

When I work with quoting, I use two Beesource windows, one is the message I am composing, the second window is the post/thread I'm quoting from. With _highlight_, Ctrl-C, CTRL-V it is easier than typing from my perspective.

UPDATE:
_SP_, I wasn't poking fun at your response. I was poking fun at the "_moral imperative_" concept! :lookout:


----------



## squarepeg

copied and pasted the formatting


----------



## squarepeg

Rader Sidetrack said:


> _SP_, I wasn't poking fun at your response. I was poking fun at the "_moral imperative_" concept! :lookout:


got it.


----------



## Barry

squarepeg said:


> figured it out graham and fixed it, thanks.





Rader Sidetrack said:


> Well, that depends on what you mean by _easy _...





squarepeg said:


> got it.


Multi-quote is another feature you might like to use here. Ignore his comment about needing to go back and uncheck the posts. No bug here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AvuiVyJs0w


----------



## WLC

Just looking for the 'bug'.


----------



## squarepeg

it's on the you tube video, but like barry said, there's no bug here.


----------



## WLC

Moral imperatives are often the reason for changing the status quo.

Perhaps Tim really is a bigger threat to the status quo than we realize?


----------



## Roland

Horse Hockey!!! Moral imperatives don't pay the bills. Let's see where this all sits in 10 years. The wind(s of change) may change direction.

Crazy Roland


----------



## Specialkayme

Ian said:


> I managed both single and double arrangements for many years. the doubles would tend to go into winter with larger cluster. I found that the cluster in both arrangements were mostly the same by spring.


An assessment that Randy Oliver appears to concur with, based on his most recent ABJ article.


----------



## WLC

Roland said:


> Horse Hockey!!! Moral imperatives don't pay the bills. Let's see where this all sits in 10 years. The wind(s of change) may change direction.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Well, the current 'wind of change' is the spreading hybrid swarm. Those would be the resistant ferals that are returning to the areas where the previous non resistant ferals were wiped out.

However, they're derived from very diverse genetic stock including Brazilian AHB.

You can't outrun that.


----------



## Ian

>>An assessment that Randy Oliver appears to concur with, based on his most recent ABJ article.<<

how many people do you think would believe that


----------



## WLC

Do you mean gene flow? Or, do you mean ordering bees from Texas?

Regardless, it's happening.


----------



## marshmasterpat

I guess I am missing the utube links for this amazing hives. Is it in this long thread or on facebook.

If on facebook, could someone post the link for me.

I do not go on facebook, too many folks might locate me that way.

lol

Thanks


----------



## Specialkayme

Ian said:


> how many people do you think would believe that


Believe what randy wrote?

Why should I care?


----------



## Ian

Specialkayme said:


> Believe what randy wrote?
> 
> Why should I care?



no you miss understood me,

how many people do you think would believe that when sending a fall time double and a single into winter, they typically come out the same in spring


----------



## Roland

WLC, I finally got off the flour from laughing. AHB genes do NOT survive up here. Ussually dead around the first good freeze, don't know how to "cuddle". Game over. Please try again.

Ian, I believe. We have been wintering in singles for as long as we know, at least the 1920's.

Crazy Roland


----------



## Ian

Roland said:


> WLC, I finally got off the flour from laughing. AHB genes do NOT survive up here. Ussually dead around the first good freeze, don't know how to "cuddle". Game over. Please try again.
> 
> Ian, I believe. We have been wintering in singles for as long as we know, at least the 1920's.
> 
> Crazy Roland


ya , Im told AHB do not cluster and because of that they freeze

Roland, I have totally switched to single management now. I love it for so many reasons. The increased efficacy of our in hive mite treatments is probably its biggest advantage currently


----------



## Mbeck

This thread took a strange twist!

If I could keep bees as well as some of these beekeepers that claim to consistently outperform conventional commercial beekeepers I would set up a program to educate. I'm sure if I could consistently out perform by a factor of 3x or more and show people how to take that knowledge home and repeat that kind of success with thier own hives I'd have a line out the door. I'm sure lots of beekeepers would pay $1000.00 a week and work thier butts off to learn it.If and that's a big if they trusted that it was of value.

I wonder how often commercial beekeepers try radically different methods and experiment with totally new concepts? I'm sure many would love to stop feeding, moving, treating etc. (all the things that some claim to eliminate). I bet they experiment a lot pouring resources into self education. 

The above comment isn't pointed at anyone directly.


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## Specialkayme

Ian said:


> how many people do you think would believe that when sending a fall time double and a single into winter, they typically come out the same in spring


Oh, haha.

Probably very little. I thought it was surprising when I read Randy's article, and the findings even went against what he thought would happen.

It was very shocking to see that they all equalized to 10 frames, whether they started with 6 or 18 (the fact that the six GREW to 10 frames over winter was particularly surprising).


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## Specialkayme

Roland said:


> I finally got off the flour from laughing.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Why were you lying on flour? Is that a common thing to do when laughing in Wis? I would have guessed it would be cheese, not flour. lol


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## JRG13

Can't forget location is key. I could never super a hive like that, the bees would not have enough natural nectar to even draw that much wax let alone fill them with honey.


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## WLC

There are plenty of African genetics that can be found in ferals. That doesn't mean that they are actual Brazilian AHB, just that they carry some genetics from AHB derived hybrids.

Roland, I take it that you don't follow what Paul McCarty is studying.

Besides, I've got some AHB genetics in my BeeWeavers right here in NYC.


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## sqkcrk

Ian said:


> no you miss understood me,
> 
> how many people do you think would believe that when sending a fall time double and a single into winter, they typically come out the same in spring


I don't see why that couldn't happen. Just because there are two boxes doesn't mean one is twice what the other is.


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## sqkcrk

Mbeck said:


> This thread took a strange twist!
> 
> If I could keep bees as well as some of these beekeepers that claim to consistently outperform conventional commercial beekeepers I would set up a program to educate. I'm sure if I could consistently out perform by a factor of 3x or more and show people how to take that knowledge home and repeat that kind of success with thier own hives I'd have a line out the door. I'm sure lots of beekeepers would pay $1000.00 a week and work thier butts off to learn it.If and that's a big if they trusted that it was of value.
> 
> I wonder how often commercial beekeepers try radically different methods and experiment with totally new concepts? I'm sure many would love to stop feeding, moving, treating etc. (all the things that some claim to eliminate). I bet they experiment a lot pouring resources into self education.
> 
> The above comment isn't pointed at anyone directly.


Tim better keep his apiary locations Top Secret. As much as management, Location, Location, Location is key.


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## westernbeekeeper

sqkcrk said:


> I don't see why that couldn't happen. Just because there are two boxes doesn't mean one is twice what the other is.


Correct. I have experimented quite a bit with wintering singles vs doubles, with or with out wrapping, etc. And there is alway a deep of bees and some leftover honey and pollen. I have concluded that I will winter in singles for the most part from now on.


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## Tim Ives

sqkcrk said:


> Tim better keep his apiary locations Top Secret. As much as management, Location, Location, Location is key.


Lol... Pick the nearest cornfield, PLENTY of them around as Randy pointed out in July12' ABJ.


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## Markt

Ian said:


> I do not add a chamber to my hive arrangement. I manage my hives in singles for most of the year, except for a few weeks I let the queen wander into the second chamber (1st super) to lay until I shake her back down and add an excluder as I prepare for the honey pull.


Interesting... How do you get her down below an excluder after you let her up, fume boards or a blower?


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## Ian

shake


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## Roland

WLC wrote:

Roland, I take it that you don't follow what Paul McCarty is studying.

True that!!!!! I hardly believe that anything being studied genetically in Southern NM has any relevance in Wisconsin. You do realize Wisconsin is not next to New Mexico?

SpecialK- When you are known for Beer, you never know who or what is on the flour/floor.

Crazy Roland


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## WLC

Roland said:


> WLC wrote:Roland, I take it that you don't follow what Paul McCarty is studying.
> True that!!!!! I hardly believe that anything being studied genetically in Southern NM has any relevance in Wisconsin. You do realize Wisconsin is not next to New Mexico?


It's really about the very mixed genetics of the resistant ferals. For example, there's Russian genetics in there as well. Which genetics the resistant ferals of Wisconsin might one day prove to have is going to be an interesting story.

Regardless, this is about how someone like Tim has started a different kind of commercial operation.

Sustainable permaculture in a commercial operation is a worthwhile goal, and I don't think that there's any real disagreement on that regard.

From ABJ:

"The first discovery of Varroa jacobsoni (later renamed Varroa destructor) in the United States was made on Sept. 25, 1987 in Florida on colonies owned by a Wisconsin beekeeper. This beekeeper, Gary Oreskovic, was a supplier of package bees that were combined with packages from other beekeepers and sold to companies and individuals in Wisconsin."

Roland, since Wisconsin was the epicenter of the original Varroa outbreak, it stands to reason that Wisconsin is home the first feral colonies to develop resistance.


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## Markt

Ian said:


> shake


So do you just knock each brood frame individually into the chamber below until you see her then? Seems like a lot of work but there must be a measurable benefit if you're doing it.


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## sqkcrk

Doing this too, w/ my colonies and w/ others, one doesn't spend time trying to see the queen. One simply sets the super(s) w/ brood frames somewhere close to the hive they came from, removes one frame at a time and shakes the bees off of it onto the top bars of the hive, one at a time, until all of the frames have been shaken, not thumped. Those frames are then returned to their box and after an excluder is placed on the hive the box containing brood is placed on top and the lid put on and on to the next.

One will find that they don't need to do this w/ every hive. It's all part of the Fall Prep Process. What else r u going to do? Fume boards are not as consistent as shaking at getting the queen down, should she happen to be up.


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## Specialkayme

WLC said:


> Roland, since Wisconsin was the epicenter of the original Varroa outbreak


Florida was the epicenter. The owner sold bees in Wisconsin. The quote (from Larry Connor) said nothing about how the guy sold varroa infested packages in Wisconsin. Just that his bees were the first in the states to show varroa. They were killed.

But even still, I'm getting tired of hearing all this "ooo" and "ahhhh" about ferrals. Everyone thinks they are the holy grail. Gods gift to beekeeping. If that's true, how come after 26 years beekeeping is still in decline in the states? How come the #1 loss of colonies are from varroa? How come no one has been able to produce a varroa _proof_ (not resistant) strain after 26 years of natural selection? 

I have no doubt a proof strain, in some form or another, will appear in the future. But it will likely take 26+ more years to get there. 52 years of natural selection isn't exactly a "miracle" and doesn't solve anyone's problems today.


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## Ian

Markt said:


> So do you just knock each brood frame individually into the chamber below until you see her then? Seems like a lot of work but there must be a measurable benefit if you're doing it.


we place an empty box over the bottom brood nest, then shake the top box down. We will look for the queen quickly as we shake them down, and find the queen occasionally. Ill have four guys shaking in a yard, it actually is pretty quick. I use to use fumes, but it drove the bees out the frount like crazy. Im certain I loose some queens that way
and like Mark said, we dont knock the frames, it gets the bottom box stirred up and the bees will boil over slowing the work down


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## sqkcrk

Breaks frames too.


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## scokat

so Ian you overwinter in a single deep full of honey, and a couple of frames of pollen? Do you put any patties on top> I am asking because I would like to learn on how to overwinter single like you do> you also keep your bees up north all winter? inside or out over winter? sorry for being off topic.


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## WLC

Specialkayme said:


> But even still, I'm getting tired of hearing all this "ooo" and "ahhhh" about ferrals. Everyone thinks they are the holy grail. Gods gift to beekeeping. If that's true, how come after 26 years beekeeping is still in decline in the states? How come the #1 loss of colonies are from varroa? How come no one has been able to produce a varroa _proof_ (not resistant) strain after 26 years of natural selection? I have no doubt a proof strain, in some form or another, will appear in the future. But it will likely take 26+ more years to get there. 52 years of natural selection isn't exactly a "miracle" and doesn't solve anyone's problems today.


I think that Varroa resistant is more than enough to justify what Tim has done.

If you want Varroa proof Honeybees, we'll just have to wait for Jerry Hayes/Monsanto to come through with their new technology.

Although I somehow think that there might be Varroa proof ferals out there somewhere.


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## snl

WLC said:


> Although I somehow think that there might be Varroa proof ferals out there somewhere.


We all would like to "THINK" so........ unfortunately, no one has found them (if they exist)...


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## squarepeg

snl said:


> We all would like to "THINK" so........ unfortunately, no one has found them (if they exist)...


not sure what 'varroa proof' means, and my evidence is anecdotal but,

my bee supplier (nucs and queens) started his operation with a half dozen tree cut outs back in the mid-ninties.

has has maintained about 20-30 production hives and sold countless nucs and queens from these over the years, and has never used a treatment.

i'm only in my fourth season with them, not treating for mites, but i've only seen one colony succumb to a heavy varroa infestation. i have had five others go queenless in the winter and mites may have been a factor.

i have seen ferals come into my yard from the woods and from a direction that i know there are no managed bees, on the few occasions when i had a yard feeder or dry pollen out.

here in northeast alabama, the climate is moderate, the terrain is 2/3'rds wooded, there are many rivers and streams, and the floral diversity rivals the amazon rain forest.

i'm not surprised that the bees were able to beat the mites here.


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## Ian

scokat said:


> so Ian you overwinter in a single deep full of honey, and a couple of frames of pollen? Do you put any patties on top> I am asking because I would like to learn on how to overwinter single like you do> you also keep your bees up north all winter? inside or out over winter? sorry for being off topic.


ya, this time of year we help the bees back fill the nest with sugar syrup. If your going to be running singles, feeding is mandatory. As the queen stops laying about this time of year, we back fill the nest so that they have what they need to winter on otherwise they will have nothing as the queen will have used 7-8 frames to brood in. The patties go on in the spring after we set them out.


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## hpm08161947

Ian said:


> ya, this time of year we help the bees back fill the nest with sugar syrup. If your going to be running singles, feeding is mandatory. As the queen stops laying about this time of year, we back fill the nest so that they have what they need to winter on otherwise they will have nothing as the queen will have used 7-8 frames to brood in. The patties go on in the spring after we set them out.


Are there feeders in the box? So 8/9 frames? Course... guess you may bulk feed.


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## marshmasterpat

Someone locally is running singles for the winter. Just saw about 50 to 60 of them moved in within the last week on 4x4 migratory pallets. 

Of course, golden rod is just starting to show alittle color, liatrias is just going down, annual iva is just starting to make pollen, and giant ragweed is next. So maybe they build up pollen and honey, but not much room in them for that. 

I am trying to keep an eye out for the guy to see if I can visit with him and help when they work the hives. Unfortunately, last time I bumped into one of the crews, I don't think we spoke the same language.


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## Ian

hpm08161947 said:


> Are there feeders in the box? So 8/9 frames? Course... guess you may bulk feed.


I feed with 2.5 gallon pails on top, 10 frames in the nest


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## WesternWilson

This has been an interesting thread, gentlemen. I am only in my second year of beekeeping and have noticed in attending bee club meetings both locally and wherever I travel, and in talking to beekeepers and reading, that the number of maintained colonies is falling across North America, and that the median age of beekeepers seems to be going up. I realize that even hobby beekeeping is expensive and time consuming enough that younger folk may have trouble setting aside the funds and the time, particularly if they have a young family. But I wonder...as the older commercial beekeepers retire, will the younger ones be interested in taking on a business that involves risk, a lot of hard work, summer commitment and relatively low pay?


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## Ian

yes, there are droves of guys around here looking to kick the day job


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## WesternWilson

I don't doubt that, but I would be surprised if they embraced the profession, given the incomes likely. It's hard to replace the income (and benefits) the day job usually brings. The other spouse usually weighs in forcefully on that one!


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## Ian

just like anything else, when opportunity opens up, people will step in and fill the void.


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## Oldtimer

Ian said:


> yes, there are droves of guys around here looking to kick the day job


Actually I get approached by people all the time wanting to learn beekeeping so they can kick the day job, my heart sinks when they talk to me cos they almost invariably have the wrong idea and think beekeeping is going to be an easier option than whatever it is they are struggling with at the moment.

For me it was the other way around, my first job was commercial beekeeping which I did until I collapsed a disk in my back & was forced to find a new line of work. When I did that I was surprised how easy many other jobs are in comparison I had no idea.

Eventually after a few years with no heavy work my back repaired itself not as good as new but nearly, so I can run bees but not commercial honey any more, that's why I'm selling bees now instead of honey.


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## sqkcrk

Ian said:


> yes, there are droves of guys around here looking to kick the day job


Really? Droves? Dreamers perhaps? People w/ no idea of what it takes. People who only see the new truck and think that there must be lots of easy money in beekeeping. Just like someone seeing a Farmer w/ a new 12 row combine and think that it was paid for w/ a check. People don't have the first clue.


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## Ian

Ya I hear you Mark! BUT I was also one of those dreamers 15 years ago. This business definitely takes a certain of person, especially starting the business up from scratch. But its no different than anyother small business start up, they all get started by dreamers and many fail right of the get go. The ones who are successful are the ones who are not only LUCKY but does what it takes to make it work.


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## sqkcrk

Amen to that Ian. Many are willing, few are able.

I know someone who one time asked me about being a commercial beekeeper. He was a dairy farmer at the time. I told him to stick w/ what he knows. HA!! Turns out what he knows is how to work hard. He runs more bees than I do now and is better at it too. So, ya never know, do ya?


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## TWall

sqkcrk said:


> I know someone who one time asked me about being a commercial beekeeper. He was a dairy farmer at the time. I told him to stick w/ what he knows. HA!! Turns out what he knows is how to work hard. He runs more bees than I do now and is better at it too.


Mark,

It is not hard for me to image a dairy farmer might think beekeeping was an easier profession.

Tom


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## chillardbee

Specialkayme said:


> But even still, I'm getting tired of hearing all this "ooo" and "ahhhh" about ferrals. Everyone thinks they are the holy grail. Gods gift to beekeeping. If that's true, how come after 26 years beekeeping is still in decline in the states? How come the #1 loss of colonies are from varroa? How come no one has been able to produce a varroa _proof_ (not resistant) strain after 26 years of natural selection?


I don't think most beeks see the corolation between the differences of what happens with feral colonies and with managed hives. Feral hives swarm and there is a large break in the brood cycle along with reduction of population. When a feral hive does die out it is usually repopulated by another swarm too. But how many beeks let there hives swarm? None. But if one was to prevent a feral hive from swarming, it too would eventually subcumb to mites. People over look that fact quite a bit, that there is in fact no difference in the susceptability between feral and managed hives other than the management by the intervention of the beekeeper.


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## Sadler91

chillardbee said:


> I don't think most beeks see the corolation between the differences of what happens with feral colonies and with managed hives. Feral hives swarm and there is a large break in the brood cycle along with reduction of population. When a feral hive does die out it is usually repopulated by another swarm too. But how many beeks let there hives swarm? None. But if one was to prevent a feral hive from swarming, it too would eventually subcumb to mites. People over look that fact quite a bit, that there is in fact no difference in the susceptability between feral and managed hives other than the management by the intervention of the beekeeper.


+1


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## sqkcrk

chillardbee said:


> I don't think most beeks see the corolation between the differences of what happens with feral colonies and with managed hives. Feral hives swarm and there is a large break in the brood cycle along with reduction of population. When a feral hive does die out it is usually repopulated by another swarm too. But how many beeks let there hives swarm? None. But if one was to prevent a feral hive from swarming, it too would eventually subcumb to mites. People over look that fact quite a bit, that there is in fact no difference in the susceptability between feral and managed hives other than the management by the intervention of the beekeeper.


Is that another way of saying that a feral colony of bees is an unmanaged colony of bees? Whereas a managed colony of bees is simply a feral colony under management?


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## Daniel Y

I agree with Mark. I will shorten it to you have unmanaged and you managed. management as far as I can tell is what causes the problems.

I had to laugh at the "Gods gift to beekeeping". Um yeah think about it. Ferrel is Gods way of keeping bees.


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## sqkcrk

I see feral bees every year. They are the swarms that are too high for me to reach from the deck of my truck. I look up at them and say to myself, "Them's GOD's bees." lol


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## chillardbee

sqkcrk said:


> Is that another way of saying that a feral colony of bees is an unmanaged colony of bees? Whereas a managed colony of bees is simply a feral colony under management?


Yeah, something like that. In as far that, if I just left my hive alone with out touching them at all through a season, that there would be no difference then that of a hive in a hallow tree or a eaves of a roof. 

In the proccess of manipulating the bees to 'try' to make them do what we want them to do for us. Swarm prevention, maximizing honey production, splitting with the introduction of mated queens, ect, it effects the mite population as well and in this case it causes the mite population to grow to lethal levels if left untreated.


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## Roland

Actually, our hardest hive to keep alive is the "Bee tree" observation hive. It is built against a window in the museum, so that the patron can view the workings of a "wild" hive. They build their own comb, of which half is removed every year, and are not treated for mites. We have tried feral and other various commercial stocks. Most do not last a year, a few make it thru the first winter. To the best of my knowledge, it has never made it thru 2 winters in a row.

Crazy Roland


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## Oldtimer

Probably cos somebody is taking notice Roland.

What normally happens with ferals is they die, get restocked, die, get restocked, but nobody notices. Till somebody "discovers" an amazing feral hive that has been there 20 years.

Similar results when thirty feral hives were monitored here using a fixed camera by a government project. They were used because of claims they had been there for years, the camera found they all died within 12 months. Some had new swarms move in, also caught by the cameras, but they were not the same bees.


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## The Honey Householder

WesternWilson said:


> I don't doubt that, but I would be surprised if they embraced the profession, given the incomes likely. It's hard to replace the income (and benefits) the day job usually brings. The other spouse usually weighs in forcefully on that one!


Are you kidding. Benefits not in the USA. Its every beekeeper for themselves. 
Talking as a second generation comm. beekeeper. I have my kids working along side of me and they see how hard you have to work to make good money. This isn't a desk job, with benefits. You only get out of it with what you put into it.:doh:


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## The Honey Householder

Oldtimer, That is the way my hives are, they die and I restock them. The next year they die again and I restock them. TO MITE PROBLEMS.:digging:


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## Keith Jarrett

The Honey Householder said:


> You only get out of it with what you put into it.:doh:


Very well said, Ron.


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## DaveMorris

I've followed this thread with interest, since I am a beginning beekeeper who finds everything about it fascinating enough to want to keep expanding. My thoughts on moving from "hobbyist" to "commercial" are:

1. As a hobbyist, you can often look at the "pure" aspects of the hobby. If you've ever taken physics, you remember that your calculations for the trajectory of a projectile never seemed to include the effects of drag, wind eddies, bugs, magnetic perturbations, or solar wind. As a result, you were living in a dream world. Similarly, the beginning beekeeper lives in a dream world where there is no AFB, no EFB, no small hive beetles, no varroa mites, no CCD to mess up the spreadsheet predictions. It's too pure, and it's not a valid set of calculations.

2. As a hobbyist, you can spend an hour opening up your hive and inspecting it, adding syrup, adding a super with frames, etc. You can spend 30 minutes looking through 3 hive bodies for the queen. But once you have 100 hives, you have just created 150 hours of work, which will take a full month just to do those simple tasks. When you scale up, you must change your entire attitude about production. Everything must be streamlined to take the minimum amount of time and effort. Walking two or three supers 200 yards from the hives to the honey extractors in a wheelbarrow can absolutely not be tolerated when you have 1000 supers to move. You must become an expert in materials management and process engineering in order to keep those tasks at maximum efficiency.

3. Combining the two previous steps yields our third issue, which is the fact that at larger scales, everything becomes much more complex. The hobby spreadsheet I have for calculating my break-even point does not mention tractor transmission fluid. It does not have an entry for enlarging the small rural septic tank system that won't be adequate for all the work force I'll have to hire. It does not have a place to enter the cost of building a new road so the larger trucks won't sink into the mud on the unimproved field. Ramping up a small operation to a larger one requires consideration of things that lie far outside the "pure" world of beekeeping. As some have said, it requires you to be a mechanic, a carpenter, a commercial driver, a chemist, who knows what else?

4. Private pilots often say they can't wait until they get their commercial license. Commercial pilots try to get as much flying time in, so they can qualify to step up to fly small biz jets. The small biz jet pilots are really just building hours so they can get into the regional airlines. Regional airline pilots make so little money, they are always chomping at the bit to fly left seat in a major airline. The major airline pilots are just trying to get seniority so they can fly the transatlantic routes. And I recently took the president of a major airline pilot's union on a week-long trip with me in my small plane, and I swear to god he actually said he wished for the good ole days when he flew a small plane. Scuba divers often spend lots of time and money to become Scuba instructors, and then discover that working at diving is nowhere near as fun as recreational diving was. It may be that the fun we have as recreational hobby beekeepers will evaporate when our lives revolve around contracts and chemicals and accounts receivable writeoffs and genetically modified plants.

That's just my 2 cents worth.


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## Oldtimer

Good thoughts Dave.


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## sqkcrk

Excellent observations Dave.


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## julysun

Oldtimer, how many swarms did those thirty hives throw off?


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## Oldtimer

Sorry I don't know that.


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## HarryVanderpool

Excellent post, DaveMorris!! 
Thank you!
Couldn't have been said better!!!


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## Ian

DaveMorris said:


> ... And I recently took the president of a major airline pilot's union on a week-long trip with me in my small plane, and I swear to god he actually said he wished for the good ole days when he flew a small plane.


ha ha ha, thats a great analogy


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## Specialkayme

DaveMorris said:


> Similarly, the beginning beekeeper lives in a dream world where there is no AFB, no EFB, no small hive beetles, no varroa mites, no CCD to mess up the spreadsheet predictions.


I don't know what type of hobby environment you are living in, but mine is anything but pure.

Experienced losses from varroa & SHB this year. Battling wax moths, EFB, occasional chalk brood, pesticide loss, and the occasional odd hive that seems to just dwindle away (not calling it CCD, but you can label it whatever you want).

The hobby beekeeper experiences the same challenges as the commercial beekeeper. It's all an averages game. The commercial operator just experiences more of them, because they have more hives. If the hobby beekeeper isn't accounting for the above referenced problems, it's because they aren't paying enough attention. Not because the hobby beekeeper has less problems. The hobbiest can afford to throw more money at it (if it can solve the problem) while the commercial operator cannot.


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## Specialkayme

DaveMorris said:


> But once you have 100 hives, you have just created 150 hours of work, which will take a full month just to do those simple tasks.


In an office environment, 150 hours of work equals (on average) a month's worth of work (figuring in at 8, hour lunch, out at 5, 5 days a week, 4 weeks a month, with a little more than a day a month as "holiday"). 

If you are planning on making a go at this, I would not consider 150 hours a month's worth of work in the beekeeping industry. Probably closer to 2.25 weeks worth of work (figuring in at 6 am, out at 6 pm, one hour for lunch, six days a week, no added holidays).


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## Ian

A ten hour day!? Ya, that would be a good start lol


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## Specialkayme

I do business turnaround for a living. That's my day job. I look at financial reports, profit & loss statements, budgets, debt service ratios, ect. and we figure out if there is something worth saving. Sometimes there is, sometimes not. On average, when you have years of experience, years of financial reports to show what the average income is, what the average expenses are, you can estimate the future growth of the company. Without years of actual numbers, you have to use projections. Projections are scary, because no one knows how accurate they will be. Income could be more or less than what you think it will be, expenses are the same. That bottom line number, if it's black you eat, if it's red you're screwed. That's a big risk.

For companies that lack financial history, we typically take the adage that you look at their projections, half the income, double their expenses, and if you can still make a profit, you might have a worth while venture (assuming your projections are fairly accurate). 

I have yet to see a beekeeping business model that can survive this scrutiny. I have yet to see a beekeeping business model that can survive one half of the above formula (either half the income OR double the expenses and still create a profit). That makes it a high risk venture. Most high risk ventures have the possibility of putting out high rewards if successful. Beekeeping isn't one of them. 

Probably why I'm not buying palletized hives by the truck load. Probably why most others aren't either.


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## Specialkayme

Ian said:


> A ten hour day!? Ya, that would be a good start lol


My estimate showed an 11 hour day. Six days a week.

I think, on a yearly average, that's fairly consistent. Unless you tell me otherwise. Some springs you may work 16 hour days 7 days a week. Some winters you may work 35 hour weeks, with two days off. On average I'd say it adds up to a 65 hour work week.


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## jim lyon

My takeaway from Dave's post was that much of what attracts people to becoming hobbyist beekeepers is replaced on a commercial scale by a lot of mundane repetitive work. What may be intriguing on a small scale quickly turns into a lot of hard work when multiplied by a hundred or a thousand. 
As far as the hours involved. There is always something to do but for our operation we deal with 7 day, 80 hour weeks for a couple months in the spring, 5 day 50 hour weeks for another 7 to 8 months and 2 to 3 months of 9 to 5 in the winter with a few 3 to 4 day weekends to go with the occasional night bee moving and Sunday truck loading or unloading sprinkled in throughout the year. We try hard to find a balance between work and family but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Bees are livestock and they are a responsibility that never completely goes away. I like to say "go hard, then go home".


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## Ian

I'd say farming in general wouldn't pass that scrub test but when has it ever, and who ever would expect it to. Different kettle of fish, and has been for as long as farming has been around

Historical financial performance never lies, projections tend to exaggerate, the trick is to get those projections to reflect your farms performance


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## Ian

My seasonal work schedule is ridiculous, I try to balance it out on my " off " season


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## LSPender

What's an "Off Season" ?
Have never had one in last 10 yrs, only thing to do is book a vacation and go.


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## Specialkayme

Ian said:


> I'd say farming in general wouldn't pass that scrub test but when has it ever, and who ever would expect it to.


But isn't that the point?

No farming operation can withstand that startup test (at least I haven't seen one). The startup costs are usually huge, and the income stream usually doesn't justify the start up costs. Banks don't easily lend, and usually want balloon payments so short that you can't pay it back in time. Refinance is a nightmare.

So the only way the business will work is by using actual numbers, not projections. Meaning a father can pass the business down. If you want to start a farming operation, inheritance is the most likely route. But those that are passing the business down, even if you get it for free the next generation can get easier cash another route. The business usually isn't worth a whole lot if sold. So it's liquidated.

If you were going to invest $X into a farming operation, but the risks are higher than investing in a McDonalds franchise, the income stream is smaller and less predictable, why would you not invest in McDonalds instead?

The only other option is to slowly grow, and get actual numbers on a smaller scale and slowly ramp it up. 

Either way, buying in is not a viable solution from a business perspective.


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## Ian

That is what make beekeeping attractive to young start ups, it's doable. A grain farm start up isn't doable even from a small beginning.


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## MNbees

To bee successful you need to build your life around the bee's. Does thought count as work? because if it does i would say i work about 18 hours a day 8 months out of the year. The other 3-4 months i go kerouac.


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## Shouse

Specialkayme said:


> I do business turnaround for a living. That's my day job. I look at financial reports, profit & loss statements, budgets, debt service ratios, ect. and we figure out if there is something worth saving. Sometimes there is, sometimes not. On average, when you have years of experience, years of financial reports to show what the average income is, what the average expenses are, you can estimate the future growth of the company. Without years of actual numbers, you have to use projections. Projections are scary, because no one knows how accurate they will be. Income could be more or less than what you think it will be, expenses are the same. That bottom line number, if it's black you eat, if it's red you're screwed. That's a big risk.
> 
> You and me, both. Well said! Beekeeping is and can be, a viable business when you treat it like one.


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## ryandebny

Go for it. Building your own hives is more work than its worth. The price of wood vs assembling hives. Build the expensive parts. Bottom boards and outer covers. Inner covers too. That's a good place to save money. I just did 40 last year I made bb with 2x4s and polyurethane boards with a strip of wood screwed in. Each one cost me about $5 to build and after the first few I could build them quite fast. They are solid too and a good thermal barrier. Outer covers were pretty easy to build. I used a PVC coated aluminum and a huge roll cost about $80 . I priced the wood to make my supers and the pine and work just didn't seem cost and time effective. Not to mention the joints in mine would suck. Commercial grade supers are fine and the more you order the cheaper they are. If you place an order around thanksgiving, many bee suppliers offer free shipping. Its heavy and expensive to ship. I went from 7 hives last year to 45. It was major work in the winter and drove to va to get my bees but it all came into place. Set up your bases in the winter too. That way by spring when your timing is crucial, you won't be under too much pressure.
I had my first level hive in place before I went to get my bees.


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## jjgbee

I went from a few hives to hundreds in a few years, BUT, I am in southern CA. I lucked into some real good producing bee locations and bought out some folks with good locations. Did this all with a good day job. Bought knock down equipment. BUT in So Cal all that is available in LA. Did I mention my almond contract was only 75 miles from home. After 30 yrs I realized that MAYBE I know what I am doing. One day I was really tired and stopped to ask some field hands if they would like some work. They asked if I was the Patron. I said Se. They said no. When they get up, I am working. When they kick back to drink some beer at the end of the day, I am still working. I work to hard for them. The next year I found a young guy to sell out to so I could enjoy my grand kids, bird dogs and hunting in the fall instead of worrying about my bees. Really enjoying retirement.


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## ryandebny

Sounds like some long hours.... For me, since I'm not pollinating its not as labor intensive. There is a lot of work even in the winter... Assembling supers, frames, picking up jars, equip, labels, winterizing etc. I love it.
Pollinating crops too sounds like a second job. 
I never considered this when I said go for it. For my work load, just making honey and maybe some nucs to sell, I love it. Its a lot of work, but its work outside mostly.


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## sqkcrk

How many hours a week does beekeeping in Brooklyn,NY demand? How many hives do you run? Do you sell a lot of honey? Tons?


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## ryandebny

I have over a dozen in Brooklyn and 40 upstate


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## BMAC

Go Brooklyn. Its tough keeping bees in the city. I used to keep quite a few dozen around Kansas City. Then I got sick of city life and moved to Dairy Country!


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## sqkcrk

ryandebny said:


> I have over a dozen in Brooklyn and 40 upstate


Come to the meeting in Syracuse in a week and I'll buy you a beer, or whatever you care to drink.


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## sqkcrk

BMAC said:


> Then I got sick of city life and moved to Dairy Country!


You mean Yogurt Country?  How does all that whey effect your honey crop?


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## Jacobee

Guy, so what have you decided to do , you sure received a lot of good advice, i will give my 2 cents as a new commercial operator.
go get a job working for the government. you will make as much or more money, all the time off you need, never have to worry about dead lines to keep, you will have money given to you on a weekly basis, a paid vacation and a no stress job. 
my other trade and biz had me accustomed to long hours and all nighters and the pressure to complete a job otherwise get fined or sued.
if you have a honey only operation it will be easier but still a gamble. i do like what i do it just costs to much to do it. 
i know that you posted this months ago but i wanted to know what you have thaught after reading all the posts.


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## Tim Ives

Roland said:


> Horse Hockey!!! Moral imperatives don't pay the bills. Let's see where this all sits in 10 years. The wind(s of change) may change direction.
> 
> Crazy Roland


The direction this year is Bobcat/truck, complete honey house.. paid in full...


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## Jacobee

That is all you need. Now you will make millions


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## BMAC

Jacobee said:


> Guy, so what have you decided to do , you sure received a lot of good advice, i will give my 2 cents as a new commercial operator.
> go get a job working for the government. you will make as much or more money, all the time off you need, never have to worry about dead lines to keep, you will have money given to you on a weekly basis, a paid vacation and a no stress job.


 Is the knowledge about working for the government from actual experience or perceived experience?


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## dsegrest

I love my bees. I love beesource. I have 4 hives and they are fun. I think they would still be fun if I had 50. If I had to make my living with the bees, it would be a job and it might not be fun anymore. 

I made a decision in my life 30 years ago that I would not do anything that wasn't fun for a living. That is why I am in Real Estate and why I have been successful at it. I don't think driving a tractor trailer full of beehives would be fun.


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## sqkcrk

BMAC said:


> Is the knowledge about working for the government from actual experience or perceived experience?


Where do you think my millions came from? lol :lpf:


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## sqkcrk

dsegrest said:


> it would be a job and it might not be fun anymore.


I bet your Real Estate job isn't always fun. Commercial beekeeping is that way too. It works out more on the plus side than the negative. Can you really expect anything more?


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## BMAC

No you can't really expect anything more. I go agree though I would not want to be a full time truck driver as a commercial beekeeper. Sure am glad I only play at being a truck driver. Makes it more entertaining while doing it.


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## sqkcrk

"I'm a semi professional truck driver, not a professional semi truck driver." Rich Wakefield


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## BMAC

Rich is a witty guy.


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## Tim Ives

Jacobee said:


> That is all you need. Now you will make millions


Millions for working for you is easier then working for millions...


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## Tim Ives

Jacobee said:


> That is all you need. Now you will make millions



Millions working for you, is easier then working for millions.


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## EastSideBuzz

If you want to be a millionaire keeping bee's start with 2 million.


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