# No compete clauses



## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

That is one of the toughest questions I've seen in years.

IMO a no-compete clause would run afoul of laws specifically prohibiting just such manipulation. It is after all a "market" economy for a reason. The best I can suggest is to attempt to teach ethics to those you work with. A really good ethical point to make is that undercutting prices is bad for all concerned because it depresses the price of honey for all beekeepers. Point out that it is in the beekeeper's self interest to maintain good relationships with customers and other beekeepers.

There will be a day when you are gone from the local scene. How do you want others to remember you? As the person who was always willing to help where you could? Or would you prefer to be like the originator of the Gilfeather turnip who cut the tops off his turnips before selling them just so nobody could grow one to produce seed?


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

I'm a sideliner who's helped/is helping more than a couple get started as well. I've wondered the same thing. When I was wholesaling I intentionally stayed out of accounts that were being serviced by beekeepers I knew/worked with. But, that's an unwritten code in my books that I'm certain not everyone follows. I don't see any way to effectively get a non-compete much less defend it ($) in a court of law for advice given. Non-competes usually have substantial money exchange hands (i.e. the purchase of a company) not advice given.


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## Bombus_perplexus (Nov 17, 2015)

Unfortunately this is the world we live in now. This is especially true with the newer generations. It seems like they are looking for the fastest, easiest way to make a buck. In doing this, they burn bridges to the point where other beekeepers get burned by them and are unwilling to help when they actually need it. In nearly every industry, companies send out secret shoppers whose only job is to price shop the competition so that they can undercut where they can afford to. That's just become part of the "competitive" market. Many college business programs have even pulled Business Ethics from their curriculum or made it an elective and not mandatory. 

I see that you are east coast so you may not have the same experiences as us in California, but there are certain groups of people that base themselves primarily over her that make their living undercutting, "watering" down their honey with syrup, stealing pollination hives, etc. Unfortunately it has become the nature of business anymore. Should it be that way? Definitely not, but it has become something that everyone has to account for.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Most non-competes involve employers and employees so not sure how it would pan out in a teacher-student type situation as described. It does suck that people you help come back to bite you in the rear, but that is the nature of a free capital market at times. Perhaps I would approach your outlets and discuss why they let other's come in and undercut your established prices.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Do what brings you the most joy.

As far as keeping accounts, just because you got an account with a store doesn't mean all you have to do is keep the shelf full. Not saying that's all you do, just for others. Build a relationship with the store owner or grocery manager and the person who checks you in at the back door. Chat a while. Make sure they still remember that you are dependable. Not that someone else might not be, just that you are. Ask your customer, the person you wholesale to, what you need to do to stay on the shelf.

Do not lower your price to meet the price that undercut yours. Unless you can afford to undercut their price enough to move them off the shelf and only if you can afford to weather the loss long term. Not a good idea to start a price war with someone who doesn't know the true value of their own product and only sees price as a means of getting their foot in the door.

Your selling points should not be dependent on price. Your selling point is Quality and Service. If people want cheap they should go to WalMart. If they want Quality Consistently, they should buy your honey. Your quality is a nice looking, clean, locally produced product. Your service is dependability. Your honey is always on the shelf. It never runs out. 365 days a year I should know that I can find your honey where I shop.

The new guy has no track record. Be sure you maintain yours. Otherwise, take the hit. If there is only room for one Local Honey Producer's Honey tell the store that you will be glad to come back when the other guy runs out. Part on good terms, but walk away.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I checked your bio. How many hives do you run? For how long? How much honey do you pack and sell each year? Do you really have much competition for shelf space? Can you keep your customers supplied all year round?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

sqkcrk said:


> I checked your bio. How many hives do you run? For how long? How much honey do you pack and sell each year? Do you really have much competition for shelf space? Can you keep your customers supplied all year round?


I've been keeping bees for well over a decade and have been in local wholesale for about 7 years. We're a very small operation by commercial standards. My hive count for the past 5 years hovers around 60. Given that we have two distinct flows (spring and cotton) we yield roughly 3000-4000 lbs per year. We try to take on only enough customers that we can reliably keep stocked all year long, which currently is about 10 retail establishments. Some places move a lot of honey, while others not so much. The number of beekeepers in this area is rapidly expanding and competition has increased in the past 3 years.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

I think Mark has it right. Nobody wins a race to the bottom. Be easy to do business with.


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## BeckyP (Jan 25, 2016)

I don't even have any bees yet but I do understand where you are coming from, I'm a taxidermist and the undercutting by the new guys is constant. Mark hit the nail on the head - service and quality!


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Beekeeping is a growing market for supplies, classes, bees and honey. If you did not teach them would they find beekeeping classes elsewhere? Probably. 

The beekeeping fad is full blown right now. They're all so eager to get in the game sell there honey and make some tons of money, if they don't do it some one else will.

Teach them what they need to know about beekeeping, basics that they would get from any class. And what they do after that you can't control.

I suspect in a few year this fad will fade as most realize it's a lot time and work to produce honey year after year.


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I put in a cent or two now and then. Not worth putting the farm up for everyone to take their piece of it, just to be put out of business by those that help them selfs. I've been in the business for over 30 years and still have a few tricks up my sleeve.

Like Mark said. Have good business relations with you dealers (customers). Should be more worried about your service then the guy coming in the back door.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

When I am mentoring new and up and coming beekeepers (which is increasingly rare) the "beekeeping ethics" sermon comes first, not last.
Anyone wanting to enter our industry should proceed with a thorough understanding and appreciation of what being a part of our agricultural community is all about.
They are not going to pull this information out of the clear blue sky.
WE have to pound it into their head's right from the get-go.

And Mark is right.
Our relationships and position in the agriculture community extends to our growers as well.
If you have a grower that is ready to jump ship for a couple of bucks per hive, something is haywire.

When I have used my apprentice's hives to fill out contracts, I have always introduced them to the grower, asked them to give the grower their card (just in case of problems) and asked the grower if they can direct bill so that the money does not flow through.
Am I worried about any of that?
I can tell you for sure; if one of them would have approached any of my growers to undercut, I would have gotten a call from the grower immediately warning me about the person's poor ethics.

Two years ago an out of state beekeeper approached one of my cherry growers and offered to drop in a truck load for free.
My grower told him, "Thank you. But I have been down that road and don't care to ever go there again!"
The solution to this thread is twofold:
1) Build strong healthy relationships.
2) Teach solid beekeeping ethics FIRST, not last.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

I'm 28, and fall into that younger crowd I guess. BUT....I have never wanted to get into bees for the money...lol, I have yet to find it anyways but that's besides the point! I have had a couple folks teach me SOME of what they know (like HH said about the tricks up the sleeve). Even so, I would never try to undercut them because I have the utmost respect for those individuals and I love the fact that I can go visit them at anytime I please. I can do this because there is no bad blood between us. Why would I want to give that up? Unfortuneately, many of my peers don't put value into those kind of relationships. It will catch up with them in the long run. My only advice to you is be VERY careful who you take under your wing. Beat around the bushes by asking them questions as to why they even want to keep bees. Test how bad they want to learn. You'll be able to recognize the signs of someone wanting to get into it for a quick buck if you do. I've even had folks call me about advice on getting a sideline operation started. The first problem with this is that they are asking me, their competition, to teach them the ropes. There is something wrong with that picture! Those kind of people don't know the sacredness of what it is you are doing. I'd much rather teach a 10-year old kid who just shows up at my doorstep with an eagerness to work and learn the bees. If they aren't willing to work, then it's not even worth fooling with them. It's unfortunate how many people are selling themselves for the almighty dollar and miss the real values in life.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well, young man, lol, I got into bees to support my family. Altruistic reasons are nice, but they don't put bread on the table or pellets in the pellet stove. But if I didn't enjoy keeping bees there are other more lucrative means of generating income.


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## TalonRedding (Jul 19, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Well, young man, lol, I got into bees to support my family. Altruistic reasons are nice, but they don't put bread on the table or pellets in the pellet stove. But if I didn't enjoy keeping bees there are other more lucrative means of generating income.


I agree completely!


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Competition is always going to be around, but to go and try to sell your goods in your mentors market is a sure sign of either desperation or lack of good character. Somehow education placing high emphasis on self esteem I think does not bode well for the development of good character.
Johno


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

In my veiw it called respect . I amight I am serious sideliner. There is about five Beekeepers that are my area that is as big as I or bigger than me. I have a talking /working relationship with all of them. Some of us compare notes more to make sure no one is leaving money on the table. Meaning not a state secret on the dollars. I have learn something from all of them. Witch become more valuable to me and what I can still learn from them. If you want a cut throat bus try being a painting contractor. Every one can be a painter.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

My father "gave away the farm". He would show anyone all of the tricks we worked so hard to develop. How to manage bees, fill label and cap jars, etc. He even invented the bee blower and gave it away. The place went nearly bankrupt.

I am much more like the Honey householder. It is OK to teach a neophyte everything he knows, but not everything you know. Be polite, be honest, but keep food on the table.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Yay but how much success can you teach someone in this business? ... 
Most don't listen and the ones who do get slammed just as we professionals do. I've learnt free advice only get them so far, then everything else needs to fall into place. I was taught from good will and I will always pass that on. My best lessons are from the school of hard knocks! 

Astrobee, your teaching too complete of a lesson


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

BeckyP said:


> I don't even have any bees yet but I do understand where you are coming from, I'm a taxidermist and the undercutting by the new guys is constant. Mark hit the nail on the head - service and quality!


Ha ha I was going to relate this to the taxidermy industry and the reason its still quite tight lipped in some areas, when I had my business I didn't mind teaching new guys, and didn't even care when they undercut me, I wasn't marketing to the bargain shoppers, I wanted customers that wanted high end stuff. Same with my honey , I'm the highest in town for that too, last yrs was my first yr selling it and it took about 28 min to unload about 9 gal worth.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

AstroBee said:


> I'm often called upon to provide guidance and consulting to new beekeepers who are struggling with various aspects of beekeeping. Also, I routinely teach multiple beekeeping courses annually on a wide range of topics


Are these courses folk get charged money to take ? If you are being paid to teach the course, then I dont see an issue here at all.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Good point.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

grozzie2 said:


> Are these courses folk get charged money to take ? If you are being paid to teach the course, then I dont see an issue here at all.



Getting paid is not the norm locally. Most of this is through local clubs where the experienced members dedicate their time and experience to help newbees. The clubs do charge a fee to cover printed materials and lunches that are provided. I suspect that the club makes a little money, but the teachers make nothing (sometimes a gift card like $20 is given to cover gas). There are exceptions, like when I teach a complete day (or multi-day) course by myself. These are formal courses that are not my main point of concern. I give lots of free lectures and solo help when requested. I've had many people shadow me for a day to gain experience and understand that it takes to manage more than a couple hives in their back yard. I've sponsored free workshops at my house covering specific aspects of beekeeping.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I think it is very difficult, if not impossible, to run a successful business using hobbyist principles.
This is not meant as a wise crack or as judgmental. Just that the end goal for each is in opposition to each other.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The reality is that a non compete clause will be virtually unenforceable in these circumstances. 

For me, lot's of people get in touch wanting to work with me and learn. I don't charge them but I get free labor and enjoy the company. I hold nothing back there are no secrets in beekeeping, we are above ourselves if we think that we alone hold information the person could not get elsewhere.

I know a lot of these people are planning to one day be my competition, and I can sometimes see they are actually surprised that I don't try to keep any secrets, perhaps they secretly think I am a fool. But the way it's worked out is I have a good reputation and people want to buy from me. The newcomer has a hard road to get a reputation. So far my sales have not been dented in the slightest by new folks coming along.

But if they were dented, I would just have to accept that's the way the market works, I doubt me trying to keep secrets would change that, other than make me look like a mean old man. As it is now I enjoy a wide circle of friends who think I have benefitted them and that's a happy situation for me to be in, and payback does happen from time to time which is great.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I wish someone would tell me about those secrets of beekeeping... If someone would just tell me what to do, my job would be so much easier !

Oldtimer ! I know your holding back !!


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I've taught beekeeping classes for years. I've had people ask if I wasn't afraid that I was training my own competition. My answer has been that I know what it takes and I know the return and anyone who has the passion to become competitive is welcome. I get calls and emails most months from shops asking about wholesale honey and I have to tell them that I'm not able to add any new accounts....I just can't produce enough. It is hard to imagine that it is so different other places...maybe so, but around here consistent suppliers of quality local honey are rare.

Good luck.


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## td4bees (Feb 3, 2016)

AstroBee said:


> I'm often called upon to provide guidance and consulting to new beekeepers who are struggling with various aspects of beekeeping. Also, I routinely teach multiple beekeeping courses annually on a wide range of topics and in the past I've always gladly contributed my experience to help out. However, as time passes a few of these newbees are now getting to the point of being serious sideline beekeepers and I've even had some of my "students" come into my established retail outlets and undercut me on price. When confronted they make comments like "...it is still a free market economy.." and insist that they have every right to step on my accounts, regardless of my past goodwill. Its getting to the point where I'm gun-shy to share anything with new beekeepers. I know this sounds horrible, but I've worked hard at building my business and dedicated a lot of time building my stock over the past 10 years. Certainly FORD doesn't invite GM engineers into their R&D labs to "borrow" their best ideas.
> 
> BTW, when I'm approached by a perspective customer, one of my initial questions is: are you working with another beekeeper? If they say yes, I ask them who it is and why they are not meeting their needs. I will call the beekeeper and talk over the situation to see what they are comfortable with.
> 
> How do you commercial guys suggest The exact same thing happened to me, (I felt hurt ) so I lowered my price and went round all his outlet's it works for me beekeeping is a hard game I have to much in it to lose.http://www.beesource.com/forums/images/icons/icon19.gif


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I never try to sell honey in a store that has a beekeeper selling in it. There are lots of small stores that jump at the chance to sell local, unfiltered honey around here. I can't produce enough to keep them all supplied so I'm picky about where I place my honey and make sure it's displayed well and priced reasonably. So far I've been very lucky and have never lost a customer.


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## matt1954 (Sep 8, 2010)

Respectfully, I disagree. Astro is in our Fourth Judicial Circuit and our Court of Appeals has held as enforceable a Confidentiality Agreement and Covenant not to Compete. In fact one year, while I had my private security business we had to get an emergency injunction in federal court to enforce the agreement when someone wanted to go to the Washington Post to blab some corporate secrets of someone we were protecting. The court not only enforced the order, but made him pay 15,000.00 in attorneys fees for violating the agreement. That hearing occurred in Alexandria, Virginia. The court narrowed in on the fact that our agreement was not overly restrictive so much so that it would prevent someone from working in a particular industry but served a valid business need in protecting confidential matters such as customer and pricing lists, employee hiring practices, confidential communications, "common interest communications with employees" and such. The court also indicated that we had a finite time frame upon which the employee/contractor could not solicit our existing customers (2 years) and as such was reasonable. It cost us $2500.00 to have the law firm prepare the document.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

"It cost us $2500.00 to have the law firm prepare the document." Which is probably what the OP made in income last year, before expenses. Spending that much to protect his market would not be worth it. Finding new outlets in the vacinity of Suffolk, VA would be easier and less costly than going to Court.


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## awebber96 (May 28, 2012)

Lawyer here. Non-compete clauses are enforced differently in different states. In Ohio, they are readily enforced by the courts--including ones that require the breaching party to pay the others' attorney fees. That will act as quite a deterrent. In other states, they are not enforced at all as a matter of public policy. 

But most states are also signatories to the Uniform Trade Secrets Act. Depending on how your state enforces it, this may provide serious deterrents to a beekeeper who is using your trade secrets against you. And it doesn't require a contract or agreement. 

That said, Astro, if you are volunteering and teaching clinics but you don't like teaching would-be competitors stop. I guest lecture at law schools and one day one of those kids might take me down in court, but educating those coming up behind us seems to me to be a necessary and important part of the human experience. If Socrates hadn't shade his wisdom, we wouldn't have had Plato. If Plato hadn't shared his, we wouldn't have had Aristotle. And so on and so on. 

Also, as a final thought, consider the plight of poor Rev Langstroth. He developed something so revolutionary yet simple that it was immediately copied the world-round. And then he promptly spent himself into the poor house trying to enforce his patents. A wiser course, perhaps, would have been to keep the modest money he made out of his lawyers' pockets and revel in the knowledge that he made his beloved hobby and the world a little bit better.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Dr. Dyce and the Cornell Creamed Honey Patent.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

As an instructer what do you really give someone? Knowledge? Knowledge is freely available today. Secret knowledge? There are 2 kinds of secrets - those that are only known by 1 person, and those that are gonna get out. I sure don't know any beekeeping secrets. 

Those people who had the motivation, and took your instruction and ran with it, and actually made something with it would have probably done it without you. Just like you probably did when you were learning. 

I agree that it's disrespectful to prey on your mentor, and I would not be happy about it either. But it's not worth becoming cynical in my opinion - it's just how it is.


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

You could look at the competition as the motivation to innovate, or keep your operation lean and mean in order to keep ahead of the people that you teach, and others. Not all competition is bad.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

sqkcrk said:


> "It cost us $2500.00 to have the law firm prepare the document." Which is probably what the OP made in income last year, before expenses. Spending that much to protect his market would not be worth it. Finding new outlets in the vacinity of Suffolk, VA would be easier and less costly than going to Court.


Not to get into details, but we net WAY more than 2500, but yes, I'm not paying to have a document written.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

AstroBee said:


> Not to get into details, but we net WAY more than 2500, but yes, I'm not paying to have a document written.


Wearing more than one hat is the problem in my view.

As far as net income: good you corrected the estimate given. Most can not comprehend the market for honey that some
strategically positioned smaller producers operate in.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

awebber96 said:


> That said, Astro, if you are volunteering and teaching clinics but you don't like teaching would-be competitors stop. I guest lecture at law schools and one day one of those kids might take me down in court, but educating those coming up behind us seems to me to be a necessary and important part of the human experience. If Socrates hadn't shade his wisdom, we wouldn't have had Plato. If Plato hadn't shared his, we wouldn't have had Aristotle. And so on and so on.


awebber96,

First thanks for providing details on legal issues. 

Whether to stop sharing beekeeping knowledge was in part one of the things I was attempting to get from this exchange. I plan to continue to share at least some of my experience, I'm on the fence as to what will be free exchange. BTW, I'm also an adjunct professor at a local university where I teach engineering. So, yes, I do appreciate the need to convey knowledge and the value that it has for our society. However, understanding complex engineering texts and presenting it to students is different (at least to me) than Ford inviting GM engineers into their R&D labs to share all the techniques and procedures. This is why I really don't have issues with teaching basic beekeeping biology, pests and diseases, etc. When it comes to inviting students into my bee yards and spending a day (or more) sharing all the details of my operation, then that's were it gets a bit more dicey. I do believe that details in beekeeping matter, how and when you do things matters - a lot at times. There are an enormous number of things that can be tweaked to increase yields. Can these be learned by all, sure, but it takes time. Like the old saying "Time is money". 

I guess this all makes me a cynical mean old man...


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Yes, if Mark is only netting $2500 on 60 of his colonies, then perhaps he needs to stop by Suffolk on one of his trips and become one of my students...


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

AstroBee said:


> Yes, if Mark is only netting $2500 on 60 of his colonies, then perhaps he needs to stop by Suffolk on one of his trips and become one of my students...


To share a secret? Lol


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Ian said:


> To share a secret? Lol



If that's his net per 60, then he needs more secrets than I've got


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

AstroBee said:


> Not to get into details, but we net WAY more than 2500, but yes, I'm not paying to have a document written.


And your gross?

I think you should start charging for you classes.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

The other day I had another call from someone who wanted to "help" with queen raising. The whole conversation smelled like a rat waitng to die and rot. Every question and suggestion was one that benefited him first. If he calls back even after my brush off I am going to tell him he can have access to my "expertise" on a sliding scale. First hour is a thousand bucks cash up front. Each additional one will be ten bucks less for each additional hour. At that rate I might get back the BS&T's it took to gain the knowledge they want to aquire. Every year we get folks wanting to game the system so they can pocket tricks and techniques that have taken a lot of years to refine. Sometimes one needs to parse out if the payback is worth the risk. When the college my daughter attends sends a certified letter that they are now tuition free I might consider reopening my free version on BEE-U. Until then 4 get it....


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

JMHO, but I think it is unreasonable to teach others, and then expect them to not use that knowledge any way they want.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

shinbone said:


> JMHO, but I think it is unreasonable to teach others, and then expect them to not use that knowledge any way they want.




I would NEVER, EVER go into my mentor's established customers and undercut them to get the account. Heck, I've even made calls to beekeepers I don't know who were previously selling honey to determine why they stopped servicing a particular store. You'd be surprised to hear how grateful they are that you reached out to them instead of just plowing in and taking the account. Now, if the mentor offered me the account, then that's different. JMO, but to do otherwise suggests that you're more motivated by greed and don't value the fundamental respectful relationships between fellow beekeepers.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

shinbone said:


> JMHO, but I think it is unreasonable to teach others, and then expect them to not use that knowledge any way they want.


Well, if I take the time to teach someone everything that they should know about using a firearm, should they be free to shoot me in the head?
If someone chooses to mentor new beekeepers; beekeeping ethics should be the first lesson, NOT the last.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Well, if I take the time to teach someone everything that they should know about using a firearm, should they be free to shoot me in the head?


Well, it is a firearm. Why would you expect someone you taught not to use what you taught them?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

sqkcrk said:


> Well, it is a firearm. Why would you expect someone you taught not to use what you taught them?



Not to speak for Harry, but I fully expect them to use the skills gained in mentoring, but the whole point is what ethics and consideration are they going to exhibit when deploying these skills? Despite what some may gather from this discussion, I enjoy teaching newbees and find it rewarding when I see them reach certain milestones and even improve to go on to "pay it forward", however, there are a few "bad apples" that can really taint the experience.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Very true, Astro. Pearls before swine comes to mind. You do what you think is right and you do what makes you feel good and what comes from that is not under your control. It's too bad when people don't live up to our expectations or standards. That's life. Prepare to be disappointed.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Well, if I take the time to teach someone everything that they should know about using a firearm, should they be free to shoot me in the head?


Would you expect them to not compete with you in a shooting match? Apples and bananas I suppose.

Despite what it sounds like I sympathize. You know most people will honor a pledge even if it isn't legaly binding so you might consider asking for one even if you don't know if it will hold up.


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## Dave1958 (Mar 25, 2013)

I never scroll over in this area, but all gave me interesting thoughts. I've been in business for 32 years, and I've seen all these issues in business. The only ethics we have is what I have when I go home at night and I know I've done what's right for me. I don't answer for what others do. While in a hobby, and I like to make queens. I can sell all the honey I can produce without going into another's store.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Well, it is a firearm. Why would you expect someone you taught not to use what you taught them?


Your response made no sense whatsoever, Mark.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Well, if I take the time to teach someone everything that they should know about using a firearm, should they be free to shoot me in the head?


Of course not.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Is that better, Harry?

They should be free to compete against you. In a shooting contest or for students.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

sqkcrk said:


> They should be free to compete against you. In a shooting contest or for students.


Interesting analogy, Mark. I wonder how many competitive shooters are actively taking on students, specifically, bringing them into to their range, spending a few days to teach/improve their competitive position (with the understanding that they will be competing later) and offering this service free of charge? I know nothing about competitive shooting, so I can't even venture a guess. Perhaps there are no secrets in shooting either...


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

AstroBee said:


> I would NEVER, EVER go into my mentor's established customers and undercut them to get the account. Heck, I've even made calls to beekeepers I don't know who were previously selling honey to determine why they stopped servicing a particular store. You'd be surprised to hear how grateful they are that you reached out to them instead of just plowing in and taking the account. Now, if the mentor offered me the account, then that's different. JMO, but to do otherwise suggests that you're more motivated by greed and don't value the fundamental respectful relationships between fellow beekeepers.


Thinking that because a business is established it no longer has to compete against the young upstarts, regardless of where they got their knowledge, is a sense of entitlement usually only found in a welfare line.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Are there secrets in beekeeping, honey production, or marketing hive products?


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

If an established business is losing clients to the up and comers, then there is a problem with that established business.

Clients will switch to a new supplier if there is a slip in customer service, price, or product quality. The new business can beat the established business when the established business thinks that because it has been around for awhile it is entitled to the client's business and gets lazy, letting customer service or product quality degrade, or charges too much.

In other words, the only reason why the student supplants the teacher is because the teacher deserves to be supplanted.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

HarryVanderpool said:


> Well, if I take the time to teach someone everything that they should know about using a firearm, should they be free to shoot me in the head?
> If someone chooses to mentor new beekeepers; beekeeping ethics should be the first lesson, NOT the last.


Respectfully, this shoot-in-the-head analogy is so silly as to be obviously irrelevant.

And, this "ethics" argument is just another way of saying the old guys shouldn't have to compete anymore. The very foundation of the U.S. economy is competition, and so getting a pass on this makes no sense.




JMHO


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Once you plant a garden, you have to tend to it.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

shinbone said:


> Thinking that because a business is established it no longer has to compete against the young upstarts, regardless of where they got their knowledge, is a sense of entitlement usually only found in a welfare line.



Sounds like the words of someone who has done, and been called out for, exactly doing what has happened to me.

Lets the clear, I have ZERO issues competing with others in the same market. What I DO have problems with are those who come to me with their hands out (welfare recipients to use your analogy) begging for assistance and then later come back to purposefully undercut my accounts. No entitlement assumed on my part, just a huge lack of ethics on theirs.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ever watch Shark Tank? That guy that sits in the middle? He'd probably say, "Ethics? Money has no ethics." If someone is in business to make money, as long as it isn't illegal, what do ethics have to do with it?

The thing is, it angers you. You have expectations. And you've been hurt. But, really, it was your expectations that hurt you. How close were you to the person who hurt you? Were you a mentor or just an instructor? 

When you describe what happened as "purposefully undercut my accounts", do you mean someone went to your accounts (more than one?) and offered them the same thing at a lower price? Did someone tell you so? Or are you assuming?

Mighty fine website. Is that your day job? Or did someone build it for you? I didn't see the Pork, Peanut, and Pine Festival on your list of events. Don't they do that at Bacon's Castle anymore?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

First let me say AstroBee that I have a lot of respect for your writings here, they show a lot of "bee wisdom" and whenever I see your name to a post I will read it and take note.

But I think that you will find it difficult to run a bee course that is "hobbled", or in other words missing certain vital information to ensure the students are left ignorant enough that they will be unable to compete with you. It will be difficult because the students will pick up on it. Certain questions, if they came up, would have to be answered evasively, and your students are not fools.

Something similar if unintentional happened to me the very first queen breeding course I ran. Great course, students loved it and by the end each of them had completed all phases of raising a queen and got to take what they had raised home. Then, on the second to last day I was totally surprised by some discontent. Somebody asked why I had not given out written notes. Soon as the question was asked a kind of murmur went across the whole group, I could see this had been discussed behind my back, and it turned out people thought I was deliberately not giving anything in writing because they might compete with me and I did not want them to have exactly everything written down. 

It was really just ignorance and inexperience, I simply hadn't thought to supply written notes. So before the last meeting I compiled a set of notes, they were handed around and people flicked through them and saw it was a fairly complete run down of need to know info, the mood immediately improved everyone happy again.

This was all because someone had proposed the idea to the group that I was holding out on them. However they had paid for the course so did feel entitled, while I understand AstroBee that your course is free?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

shinbone said:


> ....... The very foundation of the U.S. economy is competition.......
> 
> JMHO


Update:
The very foundation of the US economy is so far away from simple competition, it is a mere shadow of it's former self.
And it's been this way for quite some time.

You may be very surprised at how fierce old guys can compete when something important is on the line. Be careful with whom
you underestimate.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

I love forums, they give you time to pull foot out of mouth. This reply used to be a novel.☺


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

shinbone said:


> Respectfully, this shoot-in-the-head analogy is so silly as to be obviously irrelevant.
> 
> And, this "ethics" argument is just another way of saying the old guys shouldn't have to compete anymore. The very foundation of the U.S. economy is competition, and so getting a pass on this makes no sense.
> 
> ...


Respectfully, when I had 5 years and 15 hives , I WAS the apprentice and like you had not a worry in the world.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Attack me all you want, but competing with the start-ups is a part of having a business.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

sqkcrk said:


> Ever watch Shark Tank? That guy that sits in the middle? He'd probably say, "Ethics? Money has no ethics." If someone is in business to make money, as long as it isn't illegal, what do ethics have to do with it?


I do watch and enjoy shark tank - one of my favorite shows. The thing here is that (I believe) that when two parties enter into an agreement (mentoring with no fees exchanged) and the relationship is not just an hour or two, but multiple, very detailed instruction sessions, followed by "on call" like availability to answer all sort of "business" questions for a season or two, then to me this is when a higher set of rules go into effect. Given this, the question becomes do friends undercut friends and is capitalism still the only set of principles that apply? I view local beekeeping as a big partnership where we all work together to improve the local state of beekeeping. Kind of like we do here on beesource. I've done a lot to help in this area, but it is very disheartening to see goodwill used against you, particularly when terms like "free markets" are tossed about. I called that ethics, and I still stand by that term.

Mark,

I recall from reading numerous of your posts over the years that you have a colleague in North Carolina. I believe (I could be wrong) that you two help each other out periodically. Would you consider using your colleague's website to obtain his commercial accounts and then go into those accounts to gain their business? Would you consider such a move ethical? 




sqkcrk said:


> When you describe what happened as "purposefully undercut my accounts", do you mean someone went to your accounts (more than one?) and offered them the same thing at a lower price? Did someone tell you so?


Yes, same basic product for less money. I had numerous conversations with the business and the other beekeeper. These are the facts, not conjecture.



sqkcrk said:


> Mighty fine website. Is that your day job? Or did someone build it for you? I didn't see the Pork, Peanut, and Pine Festival on your list of events. Don't they do that at Bacon's Castle anymore?


Thank you, but no, I'm not a website designer. I did build the site myself, but with the tools available these days its not too difficult. I work as an engineer. 

The Pork, Peanut, and Pine Festival has historically been done by a long time local beekeeper, and therefore I never seriously considered it as a venue. Its been a while since I've checked the status of the festival, so I'm not totally sure who's handling it now. I do several festivals, and not looking to expand into many more.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

First, thank you for the comments and kind words. I truly respect your input and really enjoy reading your contributions to beesource. You are most definitely on my short list of posters to read and take seriously. Thank you for contributing to beesource!




Oldtimer said:


> ...
> 
> This was all because someone had proposed the idea to the group that I was holding out on them. However they had paid for the course so did feel entitled, while I understand AstroBee that your course is free?


I teach courses and provide detailed mentoring in my yards and theirs. When I teach, often it is offered by a local club and the club charges a fee to cover printed materials and food. Speakers are typically not paid, but I have been given a gift card ($20 to $25) as a thank you for helping. When I teach a full day's course, like a queen rearing course, the pay is more, but no one is getting rich... I do not charge for mentoring (as I believe it should be).


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

A couple of general thoughts - not directed towards Astrobee specifically:

1) There is a difference between free mentoring and teaching a course that you charge a fee for. As soon as you charge a fee, you can't expect any more than the fee itself in return for the knowledge, unless something else was part of the agreement.
2) You really can't teach "ethics" to adults - you were either born or raised with them or you weren't
3) You aren't entitled to "your" customers just because you were there first. You serve them at their pleasure. If one of your customers switches to a different vendor, you should look at home first before trying to find someone else to blame. Did you return their phone calls? Did you run out of stock and leave them short? Deliver promptly? etc.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

zhiv9 said:


> If one of your customers switches to a different vendor, you should look at home first beforess trying to find someone else to blame.


This!

And it is true from collecting trash to building rocket ships. And it doesn't require running a bunch of hives to know.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

I should also add that there are few things greater in beekeeping then a good mentor. Having someone to sound off ideas and discuss why something did or didn't work is invaluable. Why one would throw that away just to sell a little more honey is difficult to understand.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Question already answered.

Yup, seems as though you got screwed by a friend. I understand how that feels.


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