# Essential Oils source?



## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Hi beeherder,

I would think their just covering their butts. Seems now a days no one wants to extend their neck to long. My wife started making Fire starters out of pine cones and used cinnamon essential oils bought at a local health food market. WOW! Needless to say it got expensive. So being the cheap skate I am I turned to the internet and found these guy's after a good days worth of looking and researching. I was real hesitant because the price was so cheap. But being the cheap skate I am I ordered it anyway. Boy was I glad I did. Came just as they said it would, very strong and wonderful. I was afraid of it being cut with a carrier oil like I had read about while doing my search online. Anyhow I would recommend you take a minute to look here. http://essentialoils4less.com

Good luck and please share your experience.

Mike


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

beeherder said:


> I went searching for local lemongrass oil, and found that 'Sprouts', the local 'farmers market' type produce store has essential oils for aromatherapy, but when I told them I wanted to use it for an appetite stimulant for bees they stepped back and said they wouldn't recommend it, that it was strictly for aroma stimulation. Do you think they are just covering their hind sides or do you think that maybe there are additives that may be harmful to the bees?
> 
> Can't seem to find many sources listed on the internet on my side of town, let alone in town at all.


The essential oils they are selling may not be food grade or intended for food grade use. 

I get my essential oils from LorAnn 

https://www.lorannoils.com/

https://www.lorannoils.com/c-14-essential-oils-for-culinary-use.aspx

Depending upon how much in the way of essential oils or other of their products you use, you can open up a wholesale account with them and order at a discounted price. So far, I have been ordering essental oils by the quart. Probably most beekeeper may not use that much but these are food grade essential oils and safe for your bees.


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## arthurw (May 10, 2011)

Amazon.com has lots of essential oils at good prices, but you have to blow up the pictures and read the labels carefully. Make sure you know what you're looking for. You might want to find a bottle on another site and then Google it to do a comparison.


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## Greg Lowe (Feb 3, 2012)

Has anyone tried oils from http://www.wfmed.com


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Look HERE. And their shipping charges are not outrageous either.

HTH

Rusty


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

It's the "food grade" that's making them nervous, or lack thereof. They're not making the EOs so they're just repeating what their vendor has told them. Look for EOs that you can use to flavor hard candy, that's the most common food use I think.


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## Major (Dec 31, 2012)

There is a difference in pharmaceutical grade and aromatherapy oils. Even the pharmaceutical grades say don't ingest, they are mostly for skin application. I have a friend who has a vitamin shop and they don't carry lemongrass oil but he was able to order it for me. What are you wanting to use the lgo for, a feeding stimulant or swarm lure. It is very effective as a swarm lure and I would think the aromatherapy type would be fine for that. As far as other essential oils, I was able to find tea tree oil at Walmart, it is used as an alternative treatment for nosema.
Major


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## Greg Lowe (Feb 3, 2012)

@RHF - Those prices are much higher than the ones on the site I was questioning. Thanks for the comparison though.

@ libhart & Major- Link I found several discussions about grades of EO's. Here is one excerpt
_ "*Therapeutic Grade Essential Oils is a Misleading Claim*
No governmental agency or generally accepted organization "grades" or "certifies" essential oils as "therapeutic grade," "medicinal grade," or "aromatherapy grade" in the U.S. There is no formally approved grading standard used consistently throughout the essential oil industry."_

Thank you for the info, but I was just wondering if anyone had tried Wfmed.com since their prices were a lot lower than the other sites recommended here.


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2013)

I have looking for lemongrass oil for my bate hives.
I have heard you have to use a food grade oil not one just for aroma.
Hear is what it says on some i have looked at. 

"We are proud to carry only the highest quality 100% pure essential oils. These oils are GC/MS tested for purity and quality, are unadulterated and contain no fillers. Please see Essential Oil Properties for cautions related to any particular oil. Oils are for external use only and should be kept away from children"

Would this also no be safe for bees?
Harold


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## Beeman410 (Mar 21, 2011)

I just got some off Amazon 4oz. For like $8 & shipping
I'm using it for bait hives..
If your looking to use lemongrass oil as a feeding stimulant and worry about if its safe just use Honey-B-Healthy... its about the same price...


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## genie (Jun 25, 2011)

Yes Greg, I have ordered and used several different EO'S from WFMD in Burke, Va and I am very satisfied with their product. I use their 100% EO'S for brood enticement in early spring for rapid hive build up. I would strongly recommend them to all the BEEKS who want a good prodeuct for a very reasonable price.:thumbsup:


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

The Seaborns who are noted natural beekeepers at wolfcreekapiaries.com sell EO's, and SC bees were hit hard by a 30 January Tornado! They know what the right stuff is and it seems to me they need some business about now.


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## Greg Lowe (Feb 3, 2012)

Thanks for the info genie!


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> The essential oils they are selling may not be food grade or intended for food grade use. -Live Oak


More importantly, the essential oils they are selling are not registered and labeled for use as pesticides. The statement made in the shop told them that you plan to use them illegally. Any product used like this with the intent to kill organisms (with a few exceptions) are considered pesticides, and must go through safety and environmental evaluations with the EPA before being registered and labeled.

Products that are toxic to mites are likely to also be toxic to bees. A few chemicals may be so specific that they can target one without affecting the other, but most rely on -- in this case -- the size/mass difference. Mites are smaller than bees, so less chemical can possibly kill the mites while remaining below the lethal dose for bees.

Those sorts of details are considered in the label of a pesticide so it is applied at a rate and in a method that has been demonstrated to work with some predictability like this.


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## Greg Lowe (Feb 3, 2012)

I was thinking about pouring honey over hive beetles with the intention of killing them. I can't find anything about that on a label. Are you suggesting that honey used this way is illegal and that it becomes classified as a pesticide that must undergo testing?


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Kieck said:


> More importantly, the essential oils they are selling are not registered and labeled for use as pesticides.


 Nonsense. lemongrass oil is used to attract bees or as an additive to make sugar-syrup testier. Water with few drops of liquid soap used to kill bees - should it be registered as a pesticide?


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

I think, the difference between "food-grade" and non-food grade is what was used to extract oil? Some oil extracted using organic solvents (non-eatable, I guess), some - using steam-extraction process. I would imagine that steam extraction is better for food. Another difference would be if the oil stored in "food-grade" containers or not. Eatable oil stored in non-food-grade container becomes uneatable... From another hand, if non-eatable oil stored in food-grade container, I do not think, it is more eatable because of this... As for bees - I do not believe that there is actually difference between food and non-food grade oil - amount of oil used is so negligible that it could not affect bees in my opinion. Any oil, which is permitted to use on human skin (diluted!), in my opinion, may be used on bees. If it is "food-grade" for human - it is not necessary the same for bees.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> I was thinking about pouring honey over hive beetles with the intention of killing them. -Greg Lowe


I'm not sure how that might work, and I don't know how -- from a legal standpoint -- the EPA might view such an application. Certain "chemicals" are considered exempt from a need to be registered as pesticides. Water is one of those chemicals. I think sugar might be another, but I'm not certain about that.



> I can't find anything about that on a label. - Greg Lowe


The "label" in this case would be the entire description of how and when it should be used, created in conjunction with registration of a product as a pesticide. If you look up "Apistan label," you'll find a multi-page document with information on how it must be applied to comply with legal use, where it can be used, some of the risks associated with it, how to handle it safely, what to do if accidentally exposed, and information along those lines. All registered pesticides have pesticide labels.



> Nonsense. lemongrass oil is used to attract bees or as an additive to make sugar-syrup testier. -cerezha


Then it is not being used with the intent to kill an organism, is it? So, it's not even being used as a pesticide.



> Water with few drops of liquid soap used to kill bees - should it be registered as a pesticide? -cerezha


Possibly. I don't know. Some essential oils have been registered as pesticides. Some can be very toxic. For examples of some, look here: 

http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/biopesticides/

I've applied garlic oil in a setting where it was registered for use against mosquitoes. The reentry interval -- the amount of time after it was sprayed until humans can go into that area without wearing protective clothing -- was 48 hours. A little garlic seems harmless enough, and adds some flavor to foods. The concentrated oil, even sprayed at relatively low rates, is fairly toxic stuff. As another example, nicotine is a fairly potent insecticide. So is pyrethrum. Both are chemicals produced naturally by plants (and simply extracted from those plants by humans, just like essential oils), and both are comparatively toxic.

"Naturally produced" is not the same as "nontoxic."


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> Any oil, which is permitted to use on human skin (diluted!), in my opinion, may be used on bees. -cerezha


Such as DEET? Or permethrin?


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Kieck said:


> Such as DEET? Or permethrin?


 I was thinking about lemongrass oil commonly used for bees. I apologize for misleading opinion. By the way, I do believe that DEET and permethrin are not essential oils. Is this thread about the source of essential oils?


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> By the way, I do believe that DEET and permethrin are not essential oils. -cerezha


Right. I was simply trying (maybe by pushing it too far) to point out that "safe to use on human skin" does not equate to "safe to apply in a bee hive." And, still, unregistered pesticides used in bee hives are illegal. You might deem the risk acceptable for your purposes, you might never get caught, but it's still illegal.



> Is this thread about the source of essential oils? -cerezha


Yes, it is, but thymol is the only one to my knowledge that has a formulation registered and labeled for use in bee hives. The rest are illegal for use as pesticides in hives.

If someone started a thread on the best formulation or source of DDT for use against _Varroa_, I hope that someone would quickly point out that such use is illegal, regardless of the formulation or source.


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## Greg Lowe (Feb 3, 2012)

I'm not one to argue. So I will just state that Kieck, you were the first one in this thread to suggest using EO's as a pesticide. Before that the only stated use was as a feeding stimulant. Nice strawman you built to re-direct the thread. But I found out what I needed to know. Thanks again genie for the helpful info you provided.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Huh. Could have sworn I read something in this thread about using one as a fungicide, a class of pesticides. Also thought tea tree oil was brought up in this thread, hardly an oil that I would imagine would "stimulate" bees to feed. With the frequency that essential oils are mentioned as treatments against various pests, I believed folks reading this might be considering that as well. My apologies for the digression.

At the risk of digressing in a different way, seems to me that when not much is blooming, sugar syrup without anything else added to it is a pretty strong "feeding stimulant." Then again, I prefer to forego feeding syrup as much as possible.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

interestingly, lemongrass oil is listed at EPA site as a pesticide to repel cats and dogs:
http://iaspub.epa.gov/apex/pesticid...:31:0::NO:1,3,31,7,12,25:P3_XCHEMICAL_ID:3159
Who interested, I summarize registered "biopesticides" (floral oils) in the table below:


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Kieck said:


> Huh. Could have sworn I read something in this thread about using one as a fungicide, a class of pesticides. Also thought tea tree oil was brought up in this thread, hardly an oil that I would imagine would "stimulate" bees to feed. With the frequency that essential oils are mentioned as treatments against various pests, I believed folks reading this might be considering that as well. My apologies for the digression.
> 
> At the risk of digressing in a different way, seems to me that when not much is blooming, sugar syrup without anything else added to it is a pretty strong "feeding stimulant." Then again, I prefer to forego feeding syrup as much as possible.


Perhaps you also missed another detail, such as this is NOT the treatment-free forum?

Rusty


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> Who interested, I summarize registered "biopesticides" (floral oils) in the table below: -cerezha


I didn't see any legal listed sites that included "in bee hives" or "in syrup to feed bees." Did I miss one?



> Perhaps you also missed another detail, such as this is NOT the treatment-free forum? -Rusty Hills Farm


No. I'm not advocating "treatment free" here. There is a difference, I think, between "treatment free" and "not using illegal treatments."


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## Greg Lowe (Feb 3, 2012)

I guess there's two ways you can look at things regarding legal. One way is that it is legal only if it's explicitly stated to be so. The other is that it is legal unless it's explicitly stated that it's not. So depending upon your presupposition your definition of legal may differ from someone else's.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Kieck said:


> I didn't see any legal listed sites that included "in bee hives" or "in syrup to feed bees." Did I miss one?


 I have no idea - go to the EPA site and do your own research, than - report there. I shared information as a courtesy to beesource members - use it, or not.
As for legality - in US it is very unpredictable waters because "law" is mostly based on "precedent" - if judge decided once - this decision is a foundation to further decisions of similar kind... judge may decide that lemongrass is poison and so will be unless higher court "undo" previous decision... there are million ridiculous "laws" in US especially on local levels - somewhere holding brown bags in hands was prohibited... Also, all "laws" from the past are enacted unless specifically cancelled.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> I guess there's two ways you can look at things regarding legal. -Greg Lowe


At the risk of beating a dead ... "straw man," I guess, I'm not certain this matter is as ambiguous as what you suggest. Pesticides are registered and labeled for specific uses, or they are illegal for those uses. The labels of pesticides list where, when and how they can be used. They also state, "It is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with this label," or similar verbiage.

Just as an example, no where is it expressed stated that it is illegal to mop a kitchen floor with chlordane to control ants, yet such a use _is_ illegal.

I did pull up the list of exempted pesticides -- those deemed safe enough that they require no registration for use -- and that list can be found here: http://www.epa.gov/PR_Notices/pr2000-6.pdf

Lemon grass oil is listed in the appendix, meaning, I think, that lemon grass oil can be used freely against whatever pests you'd like inside beehives or in syrup.

With some caveats, I think it is still worth noting that use of some of the products (such as tea tree oil) in ways that they are not labeled and registered is illegal. For the good of all involved and the integrity of the beekeeping industry in general, following state and federal pesticide laws are critical.


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## Greg Lowe (Feb 3, 2012)

Kieck said:


> ...
> With some caveats, I think it is still worth noting that use of some of the products (such as tea tree oil) to ways that they are not labeled and registered is illegal...


Which is where we won't ever agree as we have different presuppositions about "legal".


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I'm not in the compliance or enforcement part of this sort of topic, and I'm glad I'm not. Having said that, I believe the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide and Rodenticide Act (FIFRA) and subsequent pesticide regulations are quite clear. The acts give regulatory control to the EPA: the "EPA is specifically authorized to: (1) strengthen the registration process by shifting the burden of proof to the chemical manufacturer, (2) enforce compliance against banned and unregistered products, and (3) promulgate the regulatory framework missing from the original law." (quoted from the EPA Web page at http://www.epa.gov/oecaagct/lfra.html)

Whether or not the EPA enforces the regulations and laws in place is up to them, of course.

Aside from the legality, uses of unregistered and off-label products strike me as irresponsible and potential damaging to the industry in this case at best. Why do you suppose honey is tested for pesticide and antibiotic (which fall under the FDA, and not the EPA) residues now?


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Kieck, I must admit you have me scratching my head. Since when are essential oils considered to be PESTICIDES?!? Their most common usage is in aromatherapy. People do NOT inhale pesticides as part of any therapy I ever heard of! They are also used in alternative medicine and, again, I have never heard of using pesticides as part of a medical regimen. They are also commonly used in soaps and lotions--again, not pesticides. And some are used in cooking! So where are you getting this idea that they are pesticides?!? I have NEVER seen a commercially produced bottle of essential oil labeled as a pesticide. Nor have I seen anyone on this thread recommend they be used as pesticides or in lieu of pesticides, so why are you insisting on all this pesticide blather?

:scratch:

Rusty


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## Huntertn (May 3, 2012)

If you use powdered sugar to dust for mites... is that a pesticide? 

I think I poisoned myself with a donut this morning 

Before I die I will say that I have used LorAnn oils in the past and have been pleased with the price and service. Their main business is candy and baking supplies, However, they also sell aromatherapy and spa stuff that I steer clear of.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> Since when are essential oils considered to be PESTICIDES?!? -Rusty Hills Farm


Just as one example of a past thread here on Beesource:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-236431.html

The idea of using essential oils to kill mites (both _Varroa_ and tracheal mites) has been suggested and attempted and sometimes reported as very successful among beekeepers. However, as I have tried to point out here in this thread again, any product intended to kill a pest organism is a pesticide. It's really very simple. The EPA does not regulated certain chemicals that they consider to be safe (see the list in the link I posted earlier in this thread), and the EPA does not regulate certain chemicals that they consider inert (i. e. water, sugar, and others).

I read a suggestion about tea tree oil higher in this thread. I'll admit that I jumped a bit to the conclusion that such an essential oil would be intended to kill or harm mites. Other posters have been fairly insistent here that all of the oils mentioned here are intended to stimulate feeding on sugar syrup by honey bees. I still have difficulty believing that honey bees would find tea tree oil irresistable, and that its intended purpose in a bee hive is to better attract bees to syrup that attracts bees without tea tree oil.



> ... I have never heard of using pesticides as part of a medical regimen. -Rusty Hills Farm


Really? Ask a doctor what they would recommend to treat intestinal parasites or scabies. Ask an infectious disease person what they would recommend to lessen your risk of mosquito-vectored or tick-borne diseases. I'll wager that you'll hear about use of pesticides as a course of medical treatment and use on humans in lotion or spray-on form to repel or kill insects.

But this digresses from the topic of the thread.



> I have NEVER seen a commercially produced bottle of essential oil labeled as a pesticide. -Rusty Hills Farm


I have. I mentioned using garlic oil against mosquitoes. I've applied capsaicin (the essential oil of hot peppers) in pesticide form and labeled for use as a pesticide on field crops to try to control aphids. Some folks use tea tree oil to try to kill head lice on humans. Api Life VAR incorporates essential oils as its active ingredients.



> If you use powdered sugar to dust for mites... is that a pesticide? -Huntertn


I believe powdered sugar falls under the "food" category. 

http://www.epa.gov/opprd001/inerts/#Food


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

> However, as I have tried to point out here in this thread again, any product intended to kill a pest organism is a pesticide. It's really very simple.


And as the other posters on this thread have tried to point out--repeatedly--NO ONE on this thread is asking about EO usage as a pesticide!!! So I repeat, why all the insistence that anyone wants to use it as such?!? 



> I still have difficulty believing that honey bees would find tea tree oil irresistible, and that its intended purpose in a bee hive is to better attract bees to syrup that attracts bees without tea tree oil.


And I hate to break it to you, but you don't get to make that decision. The person who owns the bees gets to make that decision. It's really very simple. If YOU don't approve of that usage, then *don't use it that way*. And the rest of us will make our own decisions about what we will feed our own bees.

Thank you.

Rusty


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> So I repeat, why all the insistence that anyone wants to use it as such?!? -Rusty Hills Farm


My apologies, Rusty Hills Farm. As I attempted to explain above, I may have jumped a bit farther in my conclusion of the discussion in this thread because of past threads also on use of essential oils and mention of at least one product that is used in other settings both as a insecticide and as an insect repellent. I understand that you find it to be very important to getting your bees to eat.

I was simply trying to remind others reading this thread to consider the implications and potential ramifications of using unregistered and unlabeled products for pest control. I understand you are not intending these oils for pest control. Others may be thinking differently.



> And I hate to break it to you, but you don't get to make that decision. -Rusty Hills Farm


I'm not sure why it is that you don't think I have the right to decide what I do or do not believe. All the same, can you provide me with some evidence that tea tree oil is attractive to bees and stimulates them to eat?


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## Greg Lowe (Feb 3, 2012)

I tried to start a new thread for you but haven't got permissions to do so. I was going to ask :

"Is anyone aware of any studies conducted by any reputable entity that shows without a shadow of a doubt tea tree oil when mixed with solid or liquid feed does not enhance the desire of the Apis Mellifera to feed more vigorously?

If such a study has been conducted please share how copies of it may be obtained.

For the purpose of this question please do not include testimonials to the contrary. I don't doubt it can be a feeding stimulant. I want to know if there is research that shows it is not. "


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

> I'm not sure why it is that you don't think I have the right to decide what I do or do not believe.


I was not questioning your right to believe whatever you want. I was reminding you that you cannot make the decision of what to believe/not believe for anyone but yourself. 

As to the evidence, how about reading the jar/literature of Honey Bee Healthy. I do believe the folks who actually created HBH were/are researchers from U of WV who created their formula in the course of their honey bee research, which they published, and which is how I got the notion that such a formula might be helpful to my bees. I've been around for awhile, so I got to see the earlier online reports they wrote. The current ones no longer actually include the details on the basis for their formula, but the early ones did, and I had saved copies and based my own formula on them, which I have used for a few years with what I feel are excellent results.

Rusty


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Here is a link with background on the development of HBH from the U of WV, including a reference to tea tree oil:
http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/honeyBhlth.htm


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

> For the purpose of this question please do not include testimonials to the contrary. I don't doubt it can be a feeding stimulant. I want to know if there is research that shows it is not. --Greg Lowe


FWIW I have never seen any such research.

HTH

Rusty


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Greg Lowe said:


> Has anyone tried oils from http://www.wfmed.com


I bought some eo from wfmed several years ago and shipping was free. Heavy users might be interested in Lebermuth. 
http://www.lebermuth.com/


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Here is a link with background on the development of HBH from the U of WV, including a reference to tea tree oil:
> http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/honeyBhlth.htm


From that page I found these notes:


> "EPA. 1994. (Environmental Protection Agency.) Inert ingredients in Pesticide Products; list of minimal risk inerts. Federal Register, Weds., Sep 28, 1994, Vol. 59, No. 187: 49400-49401. �Inert ingredients include acetic acid, beeswax, cinnamon, cloves, food, hydrogenated vegetable oil, linseed oil, mineral oil, olive oil, parafin wax, safflower oil, wintergreen oil, vanillin, xanthan gum, and many others, are of minimal risk� (and are also exempt from FIFRA, see EPA 1996)."
> 
> "EPA. 1996. (Environmental Protection Agency.) Exemption of certain pesticide substances from Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Act Requirements. Federal Register, Weds., Mar. 6, 1996, Vol. 61, No. 45: 8876-8879. �Cinnamon oil, citronella oil, lemongrass oil, mint and mint oil [eg., Patchouli oil], peppermint oil, and many others, are exempt from FIFRA.�"


--which I am posting here so that anyone worried that they might somehow do something "illegal" by using EOs can see this is not the case and can follow up for more detail if they so desire. So if you want to try them, it is NOT illegal for you to do so! Don't let anyone scare you into thinking otherwise!

JMO 

Rusty

Edited to add that this research is probably where I got the idea that EOs are not pesticides, since most of the ones used by beeks are on the exempt list, as are the shortenings we use for grease patties and the FGMO that is sometimes used for fogging. Beeks by and large do seem to opt for the most benign items to use in their hives.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> "Is anyone aware of any studies conducted by any reputable entity that shows without a shadow of a doubt tea tree oil when mixed with solid or liquid feed does not enhance the desire of the Apis Mellifera to feed more vigorously?
> 
> If such a study has been conducted please share how copies of it may be obtained.
> 
> For the purpose of this question please do not include testimonials to the contrary. I don't doubt it can be a feeding stimulant. I want to know if there is research that shows it is not. " -Greg Lowe


I'm glad you apparently could not start a thread under my name with this. I don't know why you wouldn't be able to simply start a thread under your own name and ask for this information. However, you've spun it to be counter to what I asked. Let me see if I can make it clear.

I stated my opinion, based on my experience and logic: I do not believe that adding tea tree oil to sugar syrup will make that sugar syrup more appealing to bees (i. e. "stimulate feeding") than plain sugar syrup.

To sway my opinion, I want to see evidence that syrup with tea tree oil added does, in fact, appeal more to bees than sugar syrup without tea tree oil. I believe that adding tea tree oil will make sugar syrup no more appealing to bees than plain sugar syrup is. Demonstrate my belief wrong, please.



> I was not questioning your right to believe whatever you want. -Rusty Hills Farm


I posted what I thought and my opinion to try to explain an earlier post of mine, and why I had reached a conclusion (maybe farther than others in the thread intended, but I reached it anyway). I never stated that anyone else needed to or should feel the same way that I did and do. I leave others' interpretations up to them.



> Here is a link with background on the development of HBH from the U of WV, including a reference to tea tree oil:
> http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/honeyBhlth.htm -Radar Sidetrack


I see that Rusty Hills Farm has quoted from this source already. I won't repeat a lot of it here, but I think the first sentence in this link is frank and demonstrates some of the intentions that have gone along with uses of some of these products:



> From 1995 until 2000, Amrine & Noel (2001) tested several essential oils in diluted honey and sugar syrup as feeding additives to honey bees, in order to attempt to control varroa mites, tracheal mites and to reverse the parasitic mite syndrome (PMS) seen in colonies infested with varroa mites. -http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/honeyBhlth.htm


Do you see why I might reach the conclusion that folks might look at essential oils as pesticides?

Along those same lines, nothing in the link that I can find suggests that any of the essential oils "stimulate feeding." Rather, the authors suggest that small amounts may accomplish some other goals, but I find nothing about enticing bees.



> --which I am posting here so that anyone worried that they might somehow do something "illegal" by using EOs can see this is not the case and can follow up for more detail if they so desire. -Rusty Hills Farm


Out of curiosity, did you follow the link I posted in post #32 of this thread? Page 10 of that link lists what I think is the EPA's most recent list of "minimal risk chemicals," those that do not require registration for use. And in post #35, I listed the general page for information on inert ingredients on the EPA's Web site. The more specific list is here: http://www.epa.gov/opprd001/inerts/section25b_inerts.pdf.

I think the caution you urge, Rusty Hills Farm, to "follow up for more detail if they so desire," is excellent advice. I do believe simply lumping all "essential oils" as "safe" goes a bit far. As an example, we've tossed tea tree oil into the discussion on this thread quite a bit already, and I cannot seem to find it on either the EPA's list of minimal risk chemicals or the list of inert ingredients. Before using such a product, checking into the regulations that might be associated with an application seems like a wise thing to do.

Also, I should point out that "tea tree oil" is not listed in the WVU link as an ingredient in Honey-B-Healthy, after they say that lemongrass oil (which is on the minimal risk list for the EPA) and spearmint oil (which is also listed in that same EPA list) were selected, as well as lecithin (on the EPA's inert list), because those ingredients required no registration as pesticides.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Oh, come off it already. You were saber-rattling with a bunch of nonsense about "illegal use" when, in fact, most EOs are exempt from FIFRA rules! Remember this:


> More importantly, the essential oils they are selling are not registered and labeled for use as pesticides. The statement made in the shop told them that you plan to use them illegally. Any product used like this with the intent to kill organisms (with a few exceptions) are considered pesticides, and must go through safety and environmental evaluations with the EPA before being registered and labeled.


You are most certainly entitled to choose not to use EOs if you so wish. But it is just not right to try to scare others away from using exempt treatments just because you don't approve of them. Grease patties, FGMO spraying, powdered sugar treatments, and a long list of EOs are exempt and benign treatments that are certainly NOT illegal. Whether any or all of them are effective is another matter entirely, and one individual beeks have a right to decide for themselves.

And to think all of this started just because someone wanted some lemongrass oil for some bait hives!

JMO

Rusty


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> Oh, come off it already. You were saber-rattling with a bunch of nonsense about "illegal use" when, in fact, most EOs are exempt from FIFRA rules! Remember this: -Rusty Hills Farm


Naw, but I can see why you might think that. I operate with regards to stuff like this to err on the side of caution. Regardless of how "safe" or "inert" I might think something is, I don't take for granted that it is or that it's legal to use in such settings. I don't have those EPA lists I linked in earlier posts memorized. My guess is that few of the people who might be reading this thread even realized such lists or regulations exist.

I know folks who operate the other way. I've seen plenty of cases where beekeepers use some very toxic insecticides because it is less expensive to control mites that way than with legal methods. (Please bear in mind that I'm not making an accusations against you or anyone else specifically.) I've seen and read enough about amitraz that I will go ahead and name it here. Some formulations of amitraz are labeled for use in specific ways inside bee hives. Buying formulations of amitraz labeled for other purposes and applying them in hives has caused some serious problems, and it's illegal. A number of beekeepers have been caught at it and penalized for it. I'm well aware that lemongrass oil and amitraz are different. But who gets to decide such things? The person who wants to use them? How far do you go with such things? What about various antibiotics that have also shown in some honey samples? Since those antibiotics are safe enough for humans to take, should it simply be up to the discretion of the beekeeper who wants to use them in or around hives?

The potential for foreign chemicals to start showing up in honey and the possibility of consumer backlash is a concern, I think. I tend to operate to try to keep exotic chemicals out of honey.

But I see this going nowhere good or productive from here, so I will bow out of this thread at this point.


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