# Laying Worker - Easy Fix!



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

I have several medium nucs made up each spring - I just slip on of these under the LW hive - shake out the bees - let them return to the now new hive sitting in there place - put on another medium - place the LW hive frames and boxed on top and close the lid - they work there way in and 95% of the time there good.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Twice this yr I've walked queens into laying worker hives with no issues, HOWEVER both times was at a point when they were trying to make queen cells on drone brood, I figured hey if they want a queen I'll just give them one. I know 2 for 2 is not scientific but it's something I will continue to observe


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## Aroc (May 18, 2016)

Trying not to hijack.......

In a laying worker hive, is there a single laying worker or are there often more than one? If there is a single laying worker is she treated like a queen? If so can a good eye spot her based on her activities and the others around her? If she can be spotted can she be pinched and thus solve the problem?

Sorry for the intrusion.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

A LW hive often has several laying workers. and it is not that "SHE" is treated as a queen but rather the hive begins to act as though they have a queen. Often defending the hive against intruding queens.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Most hives have some laying workers even with a viable queen, I have talked to and see pics from folks who raise queens where eggs were laid on the outside cells build on a queen cell in a freshly made cell builder colony


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Update; Both laying worker combines are doing very well, the added workforce has given these two hives a noticeable boost. There seems to be double the forages there was a month ago.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

It makes sense that the laying workers would be stopped by this method. I aim to remember it if I end up with LW sometime. I am sure I will get the chance to use it.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Update; Both these hives made it through winter and are ready for another box.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Thanks for the update. I tried something I was sure wouldn't work. Had a double nuc and one side went queenless then it went laying worker, had them on small cell narrow frame 4 over 4 over 4 . The queen right side 11 frames went in the bottom box the laying worker side I just put them on top without newspaper. So far it's still alive can't hardly wait to see how it does this summer.


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## Drrwvr25 (May 1, 2016)

Alright! I'll try to look in the hive again today and see if I can find the queen. If so I'll remove her and install the new queen and also shake all the bees out of the hive.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I though I would post an update to last years LW combines and answer several questions.

Both of these small hives from last year LW combines that might not have made it through the winter by themselves are now producing no less than 100 pounds of honey each, with still a month left to the flow. 

*Questions;* 

You don't need to make a shim just a plain piece of window screen or 1/8 hardware cloth will work. The shim just keeps it from getting propolised up and makes it easy to add and remove. Paint them and keep them in you apiary leaning against a hive some place.

It's same thing as a feeder shim just screened, can include an entrance if you want. 

Use the same size boxes as the shim, if you are combining a nuc and a deep place the frames from the nuc in a deep first, you don't need to worry about the extra room leave it empty or fill it, depending on the goal. 

It does not matter which hive goes on top, for ease I put the smaller one on top. 

If during a dearth wait a 30 min or so before giving a small hive it's own entrance, this will give time for both hives to get use to each other and eliminate the chance the bottom robs the top. Give small hives small entrance (if the combine is to be within 24 hours an entrance is not needed unless heat is a concern). If the hive can't guard all of it's real estate then remove extra honey/comb. While assembling limit exposure to robber bees. The same rules still apply small queenless hives are susceptible to robbing or pests. Also ensure both sides have stores. 

Any hive that is moved from one location to another should be force re-orientated to reduce the loss of foragers; the best way to do this is lean an extra bottom board or lid against the front of the hive, this forces all bees to navigate around it and will re-orientated more bees than a branch.

There are many way to correct a LW hive, some work sometimes some work most of the time. The screened shim is a simple, quick, no hassle, no resources needed way to fix a LW hive. 

Another method is to add frames of eggs/brood to a laying worker hive, this will correct the problem in upto three weeks and three frames of brood. The problem I've found with this is the time it takes; up to 3 weeks to set them straight and make a queen cells plus 30 days for her to emerge and mate plus 21 day before the first of her brood hatches. Lots of scheduled trips to one particular hive that require a full inspections each time. By this time all of the original bees are long gone the only bees left in the hive are the ones you introduced with the frames of brood. Not enough bees to defend a hive against robbers, beetles and moths. So not only did you use three frames of resources from another hive but now you have one or two boxes slimmed/infested with beetles and moths. This is why many beekeepers just shake them out and hope they don't fly in another hive and kill a good queen. Better to take those three frames and make a completely separate nuc.

*Other uses for screened shims;*

A queenless hive that is not a LW hive yet; put frame(s) with bees and a queen in an empty box above the queenless hive. No entrance needed. Let them sit over night. Next day remove the screen and combine, either as a new box or integrate the frames into the hive. This eliminates any fighting between workers and increase queen acceptance (it also give them a frame of eggs/brood just incase).

Suppress queen cell making after removing the queen or the frames from a hive, If the goal is to make them hopelessly queenless or add a queen later. Just shim and place over a QR hive the pheromones will prevent them from making queen cells. 

Any kind of combine where you would use a newspaper. No mess, no fighting, can control exactly how long they sit before combining, depending on your goal.

Use for ventilation if transporting bees while it's hot. Either above or below the hive. 

On honey supers to keep robbers out, the bees left in the supers, fly towards the light get trapped by the screen, just flip it over or slide another in it's place and the bees are free. Similar to an escape board. 

Wintered a few small hives on top of strong hives two years ago. The heat rises and kept the smaller ones warm. I had 50% success with a few small hives that would not have survived winter. Not the best but still half is better than none. (prefer 90 percent success wintering them in the garage just it takes a lot more work).

SBB to check mites drops (if you use 1/8 hardware cloth), or after a treatment to see the effectiveness where you might not want a permanent SBB and just use this for a few days.

Can be use to divide a hive to see which box the queen is in especially if she's a small one that might squeeze between a QE. Just give both boxes entrances.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

FlowerPlanter - Thanks for the great info. I am marking this thread for future reference.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

Great info. Thanks FlowerPlanter. J


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Nice write -up.

I have a hard time believing that capped worker brood has much impact on LW, so at one frame a week you are barely keeping open brood. With a screen over multiple frames of open brood, I have to believe it is a stronger more continuous suppression.

I saved AL screens from storm windows when windows were replaced. Glass companies just throw them away. Light weight, strong and free.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Thanks FlowerPlanter!
Good thread and useful info.

I would like to express my gratitude to razoo (her nickname here) for the frame of brood with queen and bees.

My hives are 3 deep boxes hives. I added 3rd deep early spring hopping that bees will have enough space and will not swarm, but they did and because of several things my hive became queen-less.

Here what I did today:

After bringing a frame to my yard, I opened my hive, removed 3rd (top) box and shook all the bees into the bottom boxes. Then I took an empty comb from bottom box, squeezed the gap and new frame with empty foundation on the side.
I put window screen on top of the 2nd box when I finished dealing with bottom boxes and cleaning of 3rd box, and put then empty box on top having 2 spaces for empty comb frame and the frame with queen on it.
The top box originally had some honey on 2 frames in it, but the rest of the frames were empty (untouched).
After rearranging top box I had the following arrangement for frames:

EEEH"Q"C"HEEE
E - empty frame
H - honey frame
Q - frame with queen on it and brood
C - empty comb


I'll be observing the hive for next several days to see its behavior - hope they'll accept the queen and in a few days I'll be able to to remove screen mesh.


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## jig4bass (May 15, 2017)

Just wondering couldn't the same thing be achieved by placing a queen in the hive in a queen cage and leave her for a week or so then release her??


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

It's not the queen's pheromones that suppress laying workers it's worker brood pheromones. And when they reach the point of LW it can take a while to bring them back. 

I suspect one frame of brood has very little pheromones that's why it take three weeks, one frame at a time. If you place them above a queen right hive that have lots of brood I bet it works a lot quicker. When I did these hive last year I left them two weeks with out checking, after two week there was no open brood, it takes 8 days from egg to capped drone, so that means the laying workers were suppressed in less than a week in both hives. Leading me to believe the amount of pheromones may are the key. 

They may try to kill the caged queen, I doubt they would feed her.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

FlowerPlanter,

So what my strategy should be?

I have a queen with some workers that has some comb to lay in and some honey is in there to survive for few days.

When should I check and for what?
When can I remove the mesh so she moves down the hive?

Thanks


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## razoo (Jul 7, 2015)

Also, the frame with the queen that Artur is referring to has all open brood, eggs and uncapped larvae, lots of it, on both sides of the frame, as well as adhering nurse bees. 

Should he leave it closed up for one week? Two weeks? 

I believe the top box with the queen doesn't have its own exit, so those bees are trapped inside until he opens up.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

razoo said:


> Also, the frame with the queen that Artur is referring to has all open brood, eggs and uncapped larvae, lots of it, on both sides of the frame, as well as adhering nurse bees.
> 
> Should he leave it closed up for one week? Two weeks?
> 
> I believe the top box with the queen doesn't have its own exit, so those bees are trapped inside until he pens up.


Thanks razoo,

Bees are trapped, but I can put shim with hole on it as entrance (I used this shim for putting sugar block on top of the frames during a winter time). Should I put the shim? If yes - is there a risk of having the queen killed?

When I put the top box on, the "new" bees were buzzing in it - I felt that they got happy to find honey. After about 30 min the noise calmed down.

Thanks again, razoo for the frame.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Tough call with the QR bees so outnumbered. Water and overheating would be my concern. Does the brood pheromone work down? 2nd screen and some brood above would be my aim. As the loyalty shifts change out can speed up.
Small hole or not would depend on local flow. Probably would add and keep a close eye, might not even leave it open all the time.

The alternative, which would be my choice, would be to start a new stack. Lets them have a small entrance without all the field force of the original hive trying to get through. follow Flowerplanter's plan from there, starting slowly with limited frames above.


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## Spur9 (Sep 13, 2016)

Watched this video last night about using a QR colony with laying workers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UDBngYzmG8


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

If the hive is queenless and LWs have not started yet, I would verify this the day you plane on combining. Leave the screen between them over night, you got two things going for you a laying queen and brood hopefully with eggs/larva on the frame. 

So when you go to the hive the next day lift the screen and the queen box set it aside, search your queenless portion for any eggs/open brood that you may have missed. If you find eggs larva do not combine; if it's drones then leave the hives screened for at least a week, give both an entrance. If it's worker brood you have a queen. (may have to wait until it's capped to see if it's done or worker)

If you don't find any eggs, add the queen box on top of the queenless box without the screen. Check in a 4-5 days; first check the frame that had eggs/brood if there no q cells then it is very likely she was accepted. Then check for worker eggs/larva in the rest of the hive. 

I have a queenless hive (not LW yet) I just did the same thing, almost exactly like you did two frames screened above had brood and a queen. It is possible they had a late virgin running around I will be checking this weekend. she is a nice queen from a preferred hopefully she laying. 

Good Luck.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Saltybee said:


> Water and overheating would be my concern.


Yes. If in doubt give them a small entrance or a small crack for ventilation. I have left a not crowded box above with no entrance a few days into the mid 80s, they can fan through the screen. I imagine 1/8 hardware cloth is better for that. Keep in mind a one frame split with a few nurse bees can't defend it's self (same rules apply) If it can't stand alone don't expect it to just because it's screened on a strong hive (that goes for heat, cold, stores, water, defense...) 

A short confinement over night reduces the chances of starvation, freezing, overheating, robbing, moths and beetles...) When the beetles find this unattended frame with just a few nurse bees they will start to migrate to it, long period of time will require enough bees for defense. Most combines can be done over night (just not a LW).



Saltybee said:


> Does the brood pheromone work down?


Yes I believe so, the entire hive gets pheromones from the queen (and brood) no matter where she is.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Yes I believe so, the entire hive gets pheromones from the queen (and brood) no matter where she is.


Off topic but I believe down is much less than up. More of a vertical split question. Queen up seems to work more often than queen down. Definitely more of a handling problem queen up if you intend to use more than one QC.
Ray Marler may convince me to go to his queen to a temporary nuc method yet.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

FlowerPlanter said:


> If the hive is queenless and LWs have not started yet, I would verify this the day you plane on combining. Leave the screen between them over night, you got two things going for you a laying queen and brood hopefully with eggs/larva on the frame.
> 
> So when you go to the hive the next day lift the screen and the queen box set it aside, search your queenless portion for any eggs/open brood that you may have missed. If you find eggs larva do not combine; if it's drones then leave the hives screened for at least a week, give both an entrance. If it's worker brood you have a queen. (may have to wait until it's capped to see if it's done or worker)
> 
> ...


Today is about 24 hours after I put the box with queen on top.

I want to play safe.
To my understanding 1st I have to give them separate entrance - is it ok if I do that tomorrow? (about 48 hours)
2nd question is: is 1 week time ok to check the bottom boxes for egg/larvae from LW? say I put box with queen 6/1 - check 6/8?

If I see eggs/larvae - is it ok if I shake the bees off that frame and put it in the box where queen is?
For now she has only 2 frames to work on.
If I do this (frame swap) - is it ok if I put top box down, so field bees come back to "top" box and bees in the top will evacuate the boxes through "new" entrance and go back through old entrance to their, hopefully accepted, queen?

Just thinking out loud.

Thanks


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Spur9 said:


> Watched this video last night about using a QR colony with laying workers:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UDBngYzmG8


Too complicated, too much time manipulating frames. Could have chilled or over heated brood and moth and beetle mess in the unattended top box. Three boxes slimed if it was done during prime beetle season. It takes three days for beetles to infest comb. Still can't figure the purpose to empty the top box of bees? 

*This is not a LW hive there was worker brood in the top box above the screen.* A newspaper combine is not enough time to fix a laying worker hive you will end up with a dead queen and a larger LW hive. Newspaper combine is however a good method to add a nuc on top of a queenless hive. 

Multiple eggs per frame and worker brood=A new mated queen. So the two queen would have fought it out. The young one won as they thought it was a virgin.

He did not use his bee math, should have give those cells he added 30+ days from egg to laying queen.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>To my understanding 1st I have to give them separate entrance 

A separate entrance is only needed if it's going to be for several days or if heat is a concern. If your one frame of bees does not have enough workforce to guard against robbers I would not give them an entrance. 

>If I see eggs/larvae - is it ok if I shake the bees off that frame and put it in the box where queen is?

Shaken LWs can return to their hive or a small nearby hive and still kill a queen. If you did not have eggs when you placed the queen above it is very unlikely you will developed LWs while you have brood on top. If you do have eggs you will need to assess if it's worker (from a newly mated virgin you still had in the hive) or if it's drone from a laying worker. LW needs a at least a week or more with a QR hive. Then you may need more bees to open up the added queen with an entrance so she does not get robbed.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Artur_M said:


> Today is about 24 hours after I put the box with queen on top.
> 
> I want to play safe.


Hadn't thought about it but a big damp sponge probably would work as well as an opening. Water is really all they need, may dump on the box but not a short term problem with one frame.


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## razoo (Jul 7, 2015)

FlowerPlanter said:


> If you do have eggs you will need to assess if it's worker (from a newly mated virgin you still had in the hive) or if it's drone from a laying worker. LW needs a at least a week or more with a QR hive. Then you may need more bees to open up the added queen with an entrance so she does not get robbed.


He definitely has a LW situation. 
The frame with the queen has lots of uncapped brood and eggs, and adhering nurse bees, though some bees got lost in transport (and at the parking lot )


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

razoo said:


> He definitely has a LW situation.
> The frame with the queen has lots of uncapped brood and eggs, and adhering nurse bees, though some bees got lost in transport (and at the parking lot )


Then for sure wait atleast a week to correct the LW then check for eggs in the bottom box. I fear a week is to long to be confine and the one frame with a few nurse bees can't defend itself enough for an entrance.

It's a gamble either way but you might try to rotate the boxes and keeping the screen between them. The foragers will return to the queen right hive and help her get laying (I am sure she does not have the workforce to continue to lay). Give each an entrance and reduce as needed.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

A better alternative is to add one more frame of brood (from the same hive) and a few shakes of bees (would also screen combine them for an hour or so before combining or they may fight), both hives need to be stainable on their own for this to work. A small one frame hive with a few nurse bee and an queen may not be enough.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Then for sure wait atleast a week to correct the LW then check for eggs in the bottom box. I fear a week is to long to be confine and the one frame with a few nurse bees can't defend itself enough for an entrance.
> 
> It's a gamble either way but you might try to rotate the boxes and keeping the screen between them. The foragers will return to the queen right hive and help her get laying (I am sure she does not have the workforce to continue to lay). Give each an entrance and reduce as needed.


I have one more question:

Will this make sense to do: if next time I check the hive, I can take all but 2-3 frames of honey from LW part of the hive and add them to the "queen" part of the hive. Logically: if LW doesn't have place to put eggs, will they stop?

The only concern is I am not 100% sure if I don't transfer any LW eggs on frames to "queen" part.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>Logically: if LW doesn't have place to put eggs, will they stop?

Yes if there is nowhere to lay (to include pollen cells) they the LW may stop, but the hive is not fixed there are still LWs in the hive and they will still act like LWs.

LW eggs are nothing to worry about they are drones, and if raised by a good workforce they will produce healthy drones. A LW hive is not contagious.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Thank you, FlawerPlanter!

Unfortunately I haven't done anything to the hive yet (the queen and the bees are trapped), but there is lots of traffic at the entrance.

If weather is ok tomorrow (after 4 days), shaking/cleaning bees from 2nd box to 1st box, moving "queen box" from 3rd to 2nd place and putting 2nd box to 3rd place - is this a good, bad or nuisance move?

I can put "queen" box as 1st box too - in this case the foragers and field bees will come back to "queen" box. Will they hurt the queen?

I am just not sure what should be my best next step.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I would check the LW side of the hive and see if the brood and queen above has suppressed them. If there is no new eggs then combine. 

Does the queen and brood have enough bees? If not then reverse the boxes so they can get some of the foragers. Without bees there will be beetle mess. 

>I can put "queen" box as 1st box too - in this case the foragers and field bees will come back to "queen" box. Will they hurt the queen?

Can't say for sure. But the foragers would be your best bet. LW hives are unpredictable.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Thanks!
Unfortunately I am not much experienced and all this happened suddenly.

Update:

I checked "queen" box through - the picture didn't change much:
It looks queen doesn't feel like laying eggs and some of the eggs/larvae were black (I assume dead) on the frame that razoo gave me.
I didn't noticed any new eggs or larvae.

I took 6 empty frames from sides (3 left + 3 right) out and put the box with window screen attached at the bottom on side, covered with inner cover.

Took 6 "good" frames from middle (2nd) box, with honey/pollen (I am not sure if there was something else, like drone brood), shook/brushed the bees off and put them in the "queen" box, to make it "stronger".
Put another window screen on the "queen" box.

Put 6 frames, that I took from "queen" box, to the 2nd box.
Removed 2nd box, and put "queen" box as 2nd box, and 2nd box is now is a 3rd (top) box.

One thing is good: the queen is alive, but instead of being on frames, she was rumbling on bottom screen.
I think (again, unexperienced thought) that she might not have enough power/help/food to lay eggs.

I am thinking of checking the bottom box in 3 days (Thursday), and if I don't see any "fresh" eggs in bottom box, then maybe it would be safe to remove the screens.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

As promised:

Update:

I went to the hive and inspected the bottom box: there were lots of drone brood and larvae. I want to say the oldest larvae was 5-6 days old if not more. Didn't notice any new eggs, So Thought that things are going well.
Then I put 2nd box, where the queen is, back on top of 1st box and started the inspection. There were more bees than before - maybe something new hatched, or some of the bees were able to find a way to get there (they were all workers - no drones). The queen was rumbling around alone  Nurse-bees were not care of her, but the queen was fatter than before (maybe it was my impression). I am not sure if she layed some eggs since or not.

I thought it is probably safe to release her to main hive, so I removed the bottom screen (for safety I left the top screen yet).
I hope I didn't smash the queen and the bees won't kill her.

Maybe in a week or so I'll do another inspection to see how the bees are doing: if there are eggs or so, and if queen will be around.

I didn't know what to do with drone comb.
Any thought will help.

Thank you.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Were there eggs in the added frame? It would have been the height of bad timing to have added a virgin. Hopefully just a bad thought.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

Hi, I am glad I saw this. I dont want to hassle with this problem hive and was just gonna kill it.....then i saw this post.....Brilliant....So the issue I see is if I use a SNELGROVE board, ( double screened) they wont get the tactile pheremone, So I would really have to make a single screened shim with some hardware cloth to achieve this tactile transfer.....Leaveit on for a couple of weeks and then either add a frame of eggs or just combine the two by removing the screen....My question is single or double screen?


FlowerPlanter said:


> I though I would post an update to last years LW combines and answer several questions.
> 
> Both of these small hives from last year LW combines that might not have made it through the winter by themselves are now producing no less than 100 pounds of honey each, with still a month left to the flow.
> 
> ...


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

I used single screen or hardware cloth (I made several of each) with a 1.5" shim (scrap wood from making boxes, already cut to size). IMO the hardware cloth may be better; it's stronger, it enables lots of air to freely move between both hives, bees can feed each other through hardware cloth (I don't know about screen). 

If you're uses a double screen that does not stop/reduce air flow it should work almost as well.

Leave it for two weeks may not be necessary. The two hives I did last year were left for two weeks. At that time there was no open drone brood in either hive, that means it had suppressed the LWs at least 8 days earlier. Recommend checking the LW side of the hive at one week. As I do not yet know when the LWs are first suppressed. Do not combine if there are any young larva (and eggs of course). I suspect it depends on how far the LW hive is, along with how much brood pheromones are present in the QR hive. 

After that time I would not add a frame of eggs and expect them to make a queen, no doubt they won't try. The issue is with how long it will take to make a new queen, hatch, mate, lay eggs, for the eggs to hatch, new workers to forage... From an already old workforce. But if you had a mated queen that should work if they accept her. Might be better to just add the workforce to a small hive that needs a boost.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

FlowerPlanter said:


> I used single screen or hardware cloth (I made several of each) with a 1.5" shim (scrap wood from making boxes, already cut to size). IMO the hardware cloth may be better; it's stronger, it enables lots of air to freely move between both hives, bees can feed each other through hardware cloth (I don't know about screen).
> 
> If you're uses a double screen that does not stop/reduce air flow it should work almost as well.
> 
> Leave it for two weeks may not be necessary.


Lauri times that at a week, though I do not find her posts at the moment. Your no egg criteria is sound thinking to me, should be a fine adjustment for various LW times and hive sizes.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

The key factor here is not the air flow but the the ability of the 2 colonies to be in physical contact with one another, which is the only way the pheremone can be transmitted, and cannot be achieved with the double screened snelgrove board...So I think I have answered my own question: I will need to make a single screened 1/8" hardware cloth shim with its own entrance for the top. I think this is a brilliant solution in half the time! THANKS


FlowerPlanter said:


> I used single screen or hardware cloth (I made several of each) with a 1.5" shim (scrap wood from making boxes, already cut to size). IMO the hardware cloth may be better; it's stronger, it enables lots of air to freely move between both hives, bees can feed each other through hardware cloth (I don't know about screen).
> 
> If you're uses a double screen that does not stop/reduce air flow it should work almost as well.
> 
> ...


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Off-topic:

This is not my own research, but I heard from so many people that:
1/4" is big enough for bees to go through
regular window screen mesh is small, so bees propolise it (they did it when I put screens)
1/8" is just right for beekeeping - no propolis and no going through.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

well, from first hand experience.......I have ventilator shims on my hives with the vent hole with 1/8" HC, they are great but every hive is different . some hives plug up the 2.5" screens some dont.....it is still a bees world. LOL


Artur_M said:


> Off-topic:
> 
> This is not my own research, but I heard from so many people that:
> 1/4" is big enough for bees to go through
> ...


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## Arbol (Apr 28, 2017)

interesting, in 50+yrs I've never had a laying worker hive out of thousands.
In every hopelessly queenless hive I found, maybe 10 in my life, they all just dwindled away to nothingness.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

More updates; Have two new queenless hives; 

First one was not LW yet, 2-3 weeks without brood. Used the screen shim and put a two frame nuc with a queen above, 24 hours with no entrance. Next day removed the screen, integrated the two frames in the box below, removed two honey frame to make room. One week later there are eggs and larva on multiple frames. So an easy fix for a queenless hive, no problem with queen acceptance. 

Second hive did go LW. Used the screen shim put a five frame nuc above. One week inspected of the LW hive found almost no open drone brood. The only open brood was a few drone larva that was close to getting capped. But there was two small patches of drone eggs. So apparently something was happening. This hive may have started cleaning up their LW eggs immediately after the QR hive was placed above, but the LWs are still laying. Wonder if it's safe enough to combine? One way to find out. The screened shim was removed on Saturday exactly one week after being placed above. No fighting observed between combined bees which are now using one entrance.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Update from my one LW hive:

There are good news and bad news:

Good news is: the queen is alive and rumbling around in 2nd (middle) box with some other bees (I would assume nurse bees), but they were on side wall, not on the frame. On one of the frames in the middle I noticed some cape brood (I think, I am not sure).

Bad news is: the queen is not laying well. She is kind of not in the mood to lay  Bottom box had lots of caped drone brood, but no new eggs or young larvae.

Somewhere I red yesterday (maybe I understood incorrectly) that queen might not lay since there is a good amount of drone brood.
So I went through and tried to destroy all drone cells. The bees were pissed-off (loud buzzing). Some of them started hanging out outside on the walls of the hive. I smoked them down to make them go home 

I don't know If I am doing everything as I should, but keeping hope to correct the hive.

I'll try to check it in 7-10 days (Monday-Wednesday).

On the other note: I read somewhere that laying worker is getting bigger when it starts laying eggs. Does anyone knows how big they are getting? Will they go through the queen excluder? If no, then would it be possible to sift bees through the queen excluder to get the LWs out of the hive? (just a thought).

PS: unfortunately I didn't have #8 (1/8) hardware cloth to make a shim. I think that size is the best size for this and any other projects.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

FlowerPlanter said:


> More updates; Have two new queenless hives;
> 
> Second hive did go LW. Used the screen shim put a five frame nuc above. One week inspected of the LW hive found almost no open drone brood. The only open brood was a few drone larva that was close to getting capped. But there was two small patches of drone eggs. So apparently something was happening. This hive may have started cleaning up their LW eggs immediately after the QR hive was placed above, but the LWs are still laying. Wonder if it's safe enough to combine? One way to find out. The screened shim was removed on Saturday exactly one week after being placed above. No fighting observed between combined bees which are now using one entrance.


Inspected this LW combine yesterday; there was still a patch of capped drone brood in the bottom box from the LW, it looked like several hatched and a few new drones were crawling around on those frames. The queen from the QR hive was still laying in the top box with new eggs and young larva, not enough room for her to lay in the bottom (was the LW hive), mostly nectar and honey filled, the entire hive is working on filling the last bit of room. No sign of anymore drone eggs.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Congratulations FlawerPlanter.

If your queen is laying in 2nd box, did you consider swapping? I am not sure if this would help, but for a sake of experiment.
I don't think there would be good amount of honey in that hive for harvesting for you, so running an experiment will not hurt much.

On the other hand, my hive had drone brood on almost every single frame in bottom box (6 out of 10), so that's why I scraped them off, so the bees would clean up the larvae and open up some space for queen to lay.
In my 2nd box the frames are filled with honey/nectar, and the 3rd box has 6 empty frames with foundations and 4 combs with some honey (not caped).
So it's a mess  I am thinking to leave this hive alone for 2 weeks, so bees have enough time to clean-up, whatever drones have to hatch hatch and go away, honey resources be sorted-up to its place and get caped if necessary.
For now (last check last Monday 6/12) it looks like because of mess bees are not completely sure what's going on and the queen is not provided sufficient conditions to lay eggs (I think that's why she is not laying eggs).

Update at about 11:30AM : I have screened bottom boards, I noticed that bees are chewing wax down to clean-up the mess, so hope they will make the cell convenient for the queen so she starts laying.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

>If your queen is laying in 2nd box, did you consider swapping?

The screen has been removes; She can go where she wants, the bottom is full of nectar no room to lay, they are back filling the last of the drone brood. That was the LW box, they did a very good job in bringing in lots of nectar. Now as a QR hive they are protecting and capping it. I figured I'd just leave it there and harvest it in a month when it's capped. There is still room to lay in the top box.

Artur, Are your boxes still separated by a screened shim? Is the queen is free to go anywhere? Your queen needs three things to lay; empty cells, stores and a workforce. Which is she lacking? What can you do about it? If she is trapped above a screen running around the sides I suspect she will abscond first chance she gets. How is the frame of brood? Are the bees hatching?


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

She was at the top box 3 weeks ago with screen et the bottom. There was another comb so the queen could lay, plus 2 frames of honey (food).

Then, 2 week ago I added some more "half-filled" frames (switched frames) and added screen on the top too and moved her to the 2nd box (switched 3rd and 2nd box). 

Then 1 week ago I removed bottom screen. There were no new eggs in bottom box but lots of drone brood. There were spots to lay.

Monday (2 days ago) I removed top screen too. The queen had chance to go to the bottom box and lay, but she didn't. There was caped brood in 2 box (as yours), but not much (maybe bees didn't rearrange honey so the queen can find spots to lay).
I thought that, maybe drone brood is "on the way" to lay eggs (I read something like that somewhere - not sure if I understood it right), so I scraped the drone brood as much as I could (no reason to rase drones).

I can say "there is a mess there". I want to give them 10-14 days to check again - to see if they straighten that up.
It looks that they started "clean-up", cause I noticed some wax pieces under the screened bottom board.

For your hive, I would suggest to reverse the boxes.
Thanks.


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

FlowerPlanter said:


> There are many problems when dealing with LW hives; you need to continually add frames of brood at scheduled intervals to set them straight. Then another four weeks for a new queen, and three more before the first brood hatches, another week before the new brood forages. Population dwindles at any stage of the game and often LW hives end in a beetle and moth mess, adding to your beetles population, and to top it off you just lost a bunch of comb.
> 
> For this reason many beekeepers shake out the bees to save the frames. That might not be the end of the problem, if the LW hive was next to a small nuc the LW bees may rejoin that nuc and kill its queen, possibly making another LW hive. A strong hive seems to be ok.
> 
> Had two LW hives each with a fair amount of bees (just enough to prevent beetle damage but not enough for longevity). I screened the LW hives with a homemade window screen shims, put a small nuc on top. Checked two weeks later; the LW hives had no open drone brood and just a few capped, the Q right nuc still had open brood. Removed the screen shims. Both hives shared one entrance, no fighting was observed. A week after combining both still had open worker brood. The added work force seems to have increased the foraging traffic.


Thanks for this, I used it today with a failed split that had laying workers. My question is- how long need I leave the #8 screen between the brood boxes? You mention 2 weeks, would a shorter time suffice? I want the colony I combined the LW hive with asap for other purpose, without risk to the LW problem.
Thanks again.


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## vdotmatrix (Apr 5, 2014)

I left a queenright nuc on for 5 days and the number of drone brood was reduced dramatically. This was an experiment. I removed the screen after 5 days and went back in 2 days later and there was no sign of this nuc...but from what i saw, this technique was very promising.

We were leaving on vacation so i shook them out and froze the frames. Conclusion...way too many drones and the nuc was not there long enough for the desired effect. They killed her.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Grins said:


> Thanks for this, I used it today with a failed split that had laying workers. My question is- how long need I leave the #8 screen between the brood boxes? You mention 2 weeks, would a shorter time suffice? I want the colony I combined the LW hive with asap for other purpose, without risk to the LW problem.
> Thanks again.


I think (please don't take this as professional advise), you can shake your bees into the empty box, where there will be no place to lay eggs, just an empty box, to turn them to something like "package bees", put screen et the bottom and top cover on the top. Clean drone brood as much as you can and make sure your new queen with its "helpers" has place to laying the bottom box. Put your "package bees" on the top (make sure they have no place to escape). Let them stay like that for 3 day, then make sure your bees from top have place to escape, so they will be back to bottom box. Remove screen after 4 days (1 week total).

I am not sure, but might work.

When I did tricks with my hive, after a while the "original" bees were ok with new queen, but she wasn't in a mood to lay.
I didn't check my hive yet, but lately I didn't see much drones after destroying drone brood, and my bees are way more calmer than they ever been.


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

BeeBad said:


> I left a queenright nuc on for 5 days and the number of drone brood was reduced dramatically. This was an experiment. I removed the screen after 5 days and went back in 2 days later and there was no sign of this nuc...but from what i saw, this technique was very promising.
> 
> We were leaving on vacation so i shook them out and froze the frames. Conclusion...way too many drones and the nuc was not there long enough for the desired effect. They killed her.


Thanks, I can easily go a week. I put a LW 10 frame colony on a QR 10 frame, a re-combine.


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## Grins (May 24, 2016)

So I went out today to look things over. I decided the LW colony was just to small to mess with so I took them for a quiet walk and shook them out in the back pasture. The QR colony I had started to combine them with now has a deep above an excluder hoping for some honey by the end of July. If they draw comb and make honey I'll harvest it, remove the excluder, and let them begin winter prep in the second deep, if they don't make honey I'll pull the excluder then and they will have a head start on drawing comb in their second deep. I did 3 more splits yesterday, wish my eyes were better for spotting eggs and young larvae but no matter the outcome LW's get relocated from now on.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

All the previous LW hives are doing fine. 

I did find another, it was a very early stage of LW. A two deep hive packed it nectar and honey. There was two eggs in drone cells that they turned into q cells, that's it, not one other egg anywhere in the hive (maybe they are still removing LW eggs). So I screened a small three frame nuc on top. The next day I went to combine them, there was a nice calm of clump of bees from the LW hive on the screen (almost like a small swarm) as if they were try to get in to the nuc side. Removes the screen and shook the bees. Checked the hive two days later and saw the queen on a brood frame, the combined hive was drawing a few newly re-waxed plastic frames. 

This LW hive had just started, with eggs in q cells shows they still wanted a queen, so it's possible any method would have worked on them.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

FlowerPlanter said:


> All the previous LW hives are doing fine.
> 
> I did find another, it was a very early stage of LW. A two deep hive packed it nectar and honey. There was two eggs in drone cells that they turned into q cells, that's it, not one other egg anywhere in the hive (maybe they are still removing LW eggs). So I screened a small three frame nuc on top. The next day I went to combine them, there was a nice calm of clump of bees from the LW hive on the screen (almost like a small swarm) as if they were try to get in to the nuc side. Removes the screen and shook the bees. Checked the hive two days later and saw the queen on a brood frame, the combined hive was drawing a few newly re-waxed plastic frames.
> 
> This LW hive had just started, with eggs in q cells shows they still wanted a queen, so it's possible any method would have worked on them.


Interesting, I have a failed re queening of a split that is LW evidently. It has a few drone cells, and has made a couple queen cells, but otherwise no eggs. Would you think there's a queen in there that's not laying?


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

DanielD said:


> Interesting, I have a failed re queening of a split that is LW evidently. It has a few drone cells, and has made a couple queen cells, but otherwise no eggs. Would you think there's a queen in there that's not laying?


That how it starts: few drone cells.
There is a little to no chance of having a queen in that colony.

I would recommend to act fast and give them a queen, otherwise you'll see more drone cells in your hive soon.

I haven't checked my hive yet, but externally they behave perfectly. I want to believe that they do ok, but will know for sure when I open the hive and do the inspection.
One thing I was happy with when I did my last inspection was that the queen was alive and was hanging there with some bees, but she wasn't on the frames to lay eggs. Now I hope that she started laying.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

I have different resources, and would have it done this morning except we are having rain most of the day. Maybe sometime this afternoon will give me the chance.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

DanielD said:


> I have different resources, and would have it done this morning except we are having rain most of the day. Maybe sometime this afternoon will give me the chance.


Later the same day, two says ago, I took a frame with brood, nurse bees and a laying queen under a cage, and added it into the early laying worker hive. The colony started to hum while the frame was held a couple inches above the box. When it was in the hum increased and they starred fanning. When I put the top box back on the bees in it went from very quiet to joining the hum. They sure sound like they we're enjoying the queen. FP, Amy suggestions what to see before I un cage them ?


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

DanielD said:


> Later the same day, two says ago, I took a frame with brood, nurse bees and a laying queen under a cage, and added it into the early laying worker hive. The colony started to hum while the frame was held a couple inches above the box. When it was in the hum increased and they starred fanning. When I put the top box back on the bees in it went from very quiet to joining the hum. They sure sound like they we're enjoying the queen. FP, Amy suggestions what to see before I un cage them ?


In my book that style of intro is risky, the hum could well be a war-dance 
An early intervention of your style carries less risk but risk all the same. 
Next time add a push cage over the queen cage. That way you avert the bees balling the queen cage.
Lucks when you inspect next - fingers crossed for those bees 

Cheers.

Bill


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

I am sorry about my lack of clarity. It is a push in cage with the queen and a good number of nurse bees with food. I just don't know exactly what to expect for a safe release and how long.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

DanielD,
I would recommend to leave the queen in the cage for at least 3 days - one week would be ideal.
In your case you caught your hive at early stage of LW, so:
1. try to check in a day to make sure that queen is still alive.
2. In 3 days do another inspection to make sure the nurse bees are "happy" to take care of her, I think it would be early to let the queen go into the hive.
3. in a week check again to make sure that bees are "happy" and there is no fight. Take a frame with bees out and out on the top of other frames, let the queen out, if bees are ok to take her in, then you are ok. Make sure they don't ball her to kill.

That what I would do.

In my case the hive was LW for a long time, so it took me 2 week to let her out.
I am not sure yet what is going on there (didn't have a chance to check).

You have to make sure that bees are accepting the queen as their own and not as foreign.


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

DanielD said:


> I am sorry about my lack of clarity. It is a push in cage with the queen and a good number of nurse bees with food. I just don't know exactly what to expect for a safe release and how long.


That push cage is lower risk but still a risk. The best chance is found with removing the impetus of LWs in starving them of motive as they age. Slowed intros have that effect.

To provide some answer to your questions?
4-7 days is as good a window as any but you might just get lucky and have her laying in those cells within the push cage boundries. That is seen she could be released the next day as best chance of acceptance.
The bees may well beat you to it as it is known for colony bees to break out the cells under the cage, that could go either way and is why the use of a queen cage _and_ a push cage or other secondary barrier.

Cheers.

Bill


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Good news and bad news from my hive:

Good news is: the there is a brood in the hive.
Bad news is: there are drone cells also.

Some how there was just a little honey on all the frames and some brood. I didn't get how the production works.
My hive is 3-deep: bottom (1st) box only middle 4 frames had some honey and some drone brood, middle deep's 4 middle frames had some drone brood and some worker brood and some honey and the same story in the top box, but there is no drone cells.

Any ideas what's going on?
Thanks,


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

I just knocked together a screened shim from an inside top cover, by cutting a larger opening and attaching screen to both sides of the plywood. We also added a notch to one side to provide an entrance. This was to make a double-screen board to separate a hive. We'd put in a queen excluder in a hive that was raising a new queen, but a short time later we found we brood both above and below the excluder. On the hopes we had two queens, we substituted a double-screen board for the excluder. So that's another time it is handy to have.

We should know this weekend if we really have two queens.

The more elegant form of double screen board is the Snelgrove board, which has some fancy hatches with which you can play mind games with the bees. Our mentor loves these to death ... I expect to order one shortly to have on hand. These have a number of uses but they boil down to tricking foragers into drifting from one colony to another in a stacked double colony.

https://www.dadant.com/catalog/b916...gle_shopping&gclid=CKb1rYnA8tQCFY-FswodOlAFTQ


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Artur_M said:


> Good news and bad news from my hive:
> 
> Bad news is: there are drone cells also.


If you had drone eggs on the 29th you still have drone brood capped. Odds are you will be fine if you have worker brood, you will know for sure in a few more days when worker starts to cap. Timing from not laying on the 29th.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Saltybee said:


> If you had drone eggs on the 29th you still have drone brood capped. Odds are you will be fine if you have worker brood, you will know for sure in a few more days when worker starts to cap. Timing from not laying on the 29th.


The worker mood cells were caped. So that was just a relief.
But the strange thing was brood was in both top deeps, bottom deep was empty with some caped drone cells.
Absolutely no full-frame caped honey.

Another strange thing with my other hive - bottom box was empty, just a little brood and honey on top parts of frames, brood was in the middle box and some full-caped honey frames in top deep.

My inexperience is frustrating me to understand what's going on?
Are bees ok managing 2 deeps? is 3rd deep waste of resources? Both hives are ignoring bottom box. Should I remove it? Should I put it on the top?
What is the management in this situation?


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Artur_M said:


> The worker mood cells were caped. So that was just a relief.
> But the strange thing was brood was in both top deeps, bottom deep was empty with some caped drone cells.
> Absolutely no full-frame caped honey.
> 
> ...


They often move up, abandoning the bottom box, when they have plenty of room. Or sometimes they use the bottom box for pollen stores and a little nectar.

Yes, you can pull an abandoned box, and should. No telling what will move in down there without bees to tend it. Wax moths, beetles, mice .... Be watching for more of this as cold weather approaches. If the upper boxes are packed, it is also possible to move an empty box to the top.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

I guess that's what I'll do in few days: move bottom box to the top for both hives.
Someone on the other thread is suggesting to close my SBBs also.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

FP'
Reqested a repost from another thread;

I do not see any conflict between the screen and adding brood frame a week methods. In fact swapping several frames from the two hives makes perfect sense to me. Bee free frames added to the lower places the brood in direct contact and puts them to work on good brood immediately. Killed drone brood frames added to the upper gives her more room to lay and puts the frames back in circulation. (I have seen it posted that LW worker frames are spoiled by the drone brood, I have not noticed that but I have not looked either.)

I have not had occasion to try the screen and brood method, and hope to never have occasion again, but will use next time.


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## Artur_M (Aug 14, 2016)

Saltybee said:


> FP'
> Reqested a repost from another thread;
> 
> I do not see any conflict between the screen and adding brood frame a week methods. In fact swapping several frames from the two hives makes perfect sense to me. Bee free frames added to the lower places the brood in direct contact and puts them to work on good brood immediately. Killed drone brood frames added to the upper gives her more room to lay and puts the frames back in circulation. (I have seen it posted that LW worker frames are spoiled by the drone brood, I have not noticed that but I have not looked either.)
> ...


I would agree with this, but have few comments and questions:
I think it is very hards to find a frame of brood every week if the other hive is coming out of winter too and new, just mated, queen started laying there.

If there is a LW in the hive, giving them frame with new eggs on it, will bees start growing new queen for themselves?


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Artur_M said:


> If there is a LW in the hive, giving them frame with new eggs on it, will bees start growing new queen for themselves?


Generally said to be a 3 week process before starting queen at a 1 frame per week rate. I will say sometimes the answer is a simple no. Mostly how long LW and just bee variance.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

End of season update;

Made lots of nucs this year, some with cells some with queens, combined with swarming this leaves many hives/nucs queenless. For the most part, most of the hives and nucs did make new queens, giving me a surplus of nucs. It's the few that did not successfully make queens and not checked in time that turned laying worker. 

Around five LW hives/nucs this year, and just as many queenless hives/nucs were all fixed using the screened shim. The only difference between the two is the time I kept them separated; Over night for a queenless hive and at least one week for a LW hive.

It has turned out to be a sure fire way to fix a queenless hive, no other method I have tried has fixed a queenless situations better than screen combining them with a small nuc;
Queen acceptance has been 100% up to this point, for both queenless and LW hives. 
No time delay in waiting for a queen to emerge/mate/lay or for a new brood cycle to emerge.
Halting the broodless period keeping production hives motivated and producing.
Combined added work force gives a noticeable increase in colony performance. 
It takes very little time.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Flower......


> On honey supers to keep robbers out, the bees left in the supers, fly towards the light get trapped by the screen, just flip it over or slide another in it's place and the bees are free. Similar to an escape board.


I am going to try and remember this one.
Cheers
gww


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

FP, I had a larger laying worker colony and put a newly laying queen smaller hive on top for a couple weeks. By then all signs of LW were long gone and I combined. Thanks for the thread.


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

Hi every one. I have a LW hive and I have decided to try this method of putting HC shim between it and a Nuc above. I just have one question. The LW hive is at the bottom and uses its normal entrance. The HC shim is placed above the LW hive. The QR Nuc which is 4' away is moved and placed above the LW hive and the screen shim. Do I put and entrance above the nuc for the bees in the NUC?
Thanks
DP


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

Hi every one. I have a LW hive and I have decided to try this method of putting HC shim between it and a Nuc above. I just have one question. The LW hive is at the bottom and uses its normal entrance. The HC shim is placed above the LW hive. The QR Nuc which is 4' away is moved and placed above the LW hive and the screen shim. Do I put and entrance above the nuc for the bees in the NUC?
Thanks
DP


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

deepster said:


> Hi every one. I have a LW hive and I have decided to try this method of putting HC shim between it and a Nuc above. I just have one question. The LW hive is at the bottom and uses its normal entrance. The HC shim is placed above the LW hive. The QR Nuc which is 4' away is moved and placed above the LW hive and the screen shim. Do I put and entrance above the nuc for the bees in the NUC?
> Thanks
> DP


Bees in the Nuc need a way to get out and go on about their business. They will die otherwise. So if whatever (screen) is separating the top from bottom does not allow Nuc bees to go down, then they need own entrance to come and go.


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