# Two Hives Dead - cold & moisture and an open minded dialogue needed for heat



## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

After reading extensively and watching countless video's my first two hives have died. You can try and do everything right *varroa control throughout with none going into fall *queens bred for winter *fall feeding in September*winter protection which included a moisture board right over the feeding shim and the advice of no upper entrance to prevent heat from leaving. This last part from a bee supplier was terrible advice and I take responsibility for following it. The beekeeping community doesn't make this easy on new people when they themselves can't agree. 

I really don't care to hear "cold doesn't kill bees" dialogue. And yes I know that the best in the world will disagree with me on this. So be it. My hives died when it was consistently in the teens at night. My emotions started out as sadness to pissed off to developing the action plan for next year.

There are reasons why feral colonies are in old buildings and walls of unsuspecting houses. People are using terrarium heaters and heat tape and home made configurations and such with success. Next year will be different for me. I'm breaking from the conventional wisdom and creating more ventilation alongside providing 40 degree direct heat for the cluster. WarmBees has a product that I'll be trying next year. And it's a shame it took me to this point to even find it. Challenging a current belief system in any field always sees a degree of resistance. The bees appear to like it and that's evidence enough for me.


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

Ba dump bump, that was clear. Sail on then and Godspeed


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Can you describe the "moisture board". Also exactly how much insulation above it and on the exterior of the feeding shim.

The proposition of trying to absorb the moisture produced by metabolizing 50 lbs or so of honey is far more than most people can envision. It actually amounts to something in the neighborhood of 4 US gallons! If you can prevent it from condensing to a liquid in the upper part of the colony it is a non issue. You must however prevent it from icing shut the bottom entrance.

I have used 5" or so thick shavings quilts to top the hive but they slowly dissipate all the moisture while still providing excellent insulation factor: the lower surface immediately above the bees remains above the dew point temperature so no condensation can form to drip on the bees. With a high enough R value insulation above the bees, no condensation can form regardless of the humidity level. This is the principle enabling the styrofoam hives used extensively in Europe. Virtually no upper ventilation but a high R value.

Perhaps the advice you received was not all bad; the devil is in the details!

I have 6 colonies this winter for a trial with 4" foam insulation on top and no upper ventilation. I know that the deep shavings quilt is 100% effective but it is far more involved and entails extra equipment compared to the thick foam slab.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Cold will kill honey bees, but first the adult population must dwindle down below the number of bees required to maintain the cluster temperature. You should first "Round up the usual suspects" that cause colony death, and then determine what was the cause of your colonies death.

Actually, your post sounds like the beginning of a plug for a particular product, not a request for guidance or a statement of probable cause for colony death.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sorry for your losses and understand the rant.

how are the folks near you keeping many hives for many years dealing with the cold and moisture issues?


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

I certainly don't have all the answers and very likely few. I can offer help in sharing how I do my best to cut cold related losses. I went to Lowes and purchased a 10 sheet bundle of Johns Manville R-9.3 1.5-INX4-FTX8-FT AP FOILSHT:

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Johns-Manv...ft-x-8-ft-Actual-1-5-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft/3851109

and cut it up into various sized smaller pieces that were 18.25" x 14.6875" for 10 frame boxes and 18.25" x 7.75" for nucleus colony boxes. This size allows on my hive boxes a perfect fit for the sheet of insulation to slide into the inside of the box and create and insulation layer on top of the hive. Since it is still not too cold to feed sugar syrup at my latitude, I use 1 gallon syrup feeder buckets on top of the inner cover. I place an empty deep box around the feeder buckets on top of the inner cover and then place 1 or 2 sheets of the cut to fit insulation board inside the deep box around the feeder buckets on top of the buckets. This creates a nice air pocket under the insulation boards that aids in limiting heat loss through the top of the hive. I do the same thing with my nucleus colonies with the only difference being that I use 2 half gallon glass jars with the punched hole lid to feed through the top of the nuc using a feeder box made out of a medium nuc box. I try to give each hive 2 sheets of this insulation which in theory provides nearly R-19 insulation. 

You can cut a half inch hole in the foam board for ventilation of moisture or install an Immerie Shim under the inner cover for the same thing. 

The outsides of the hives I use either a Bee Cozy, on some I am experimenting with the Easy-On Beehive cover, and the nucs get pushed together and wrapped with layers of Reflectix bubble wrap insulation. 

I have Broodminders is a number of my hives and I noticed an immediate stabilization and a gradual increase of about 10 - 20 degrees of the daily temperatures inside my hives once I added the above insulation. 

Something to consider when treating for varroa mites in the Fall.......as a precaution, I treat my bees for tracheal mites as well with Mitathol. Although tracheal mites are not near the problem varroa mites are, they can cause a hive crash during the Winter if left untreated in more than a few cases. 

Another option to consider depending upon how many hives you have is to move them inside an insulated storage building to get them out of the wind, rain, and bad weather. During really cold snaps, you can close the building up but onces the temps begin to get into the 40's you will need to open the building up so the bees can get out to do their purging flights and forage. 

Sorry to hear of your hive losses and hope this helps.


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## tom0354 (May 25, 2018)

LAlldredge said:


> ...
> This last part from a bee supplier was terrible advice and I take responsibility for following it. The beekeeping community doesn't make this easy on new people when they themselves can't agree.
> ...
> .



Don't be discourage. Beekeeping is very regional. An approach work for an area doesn't mean it works for another. Example: my friends are 1/2 hr away from me, the queen was shutdown in mid November but my still have plenty of capped brood and eggs couple days ago.

I have this top feeder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qziRf3FkBYc so when I build the housing for it, I drilled 2 1" hole covered with mesh screen. During fall/winter I covered the main hole (for the feeder) and the bee will seal the 1" hole leaving small opening to hot air to go up. I threw in a used towel in the housing and all the moister are trapped in there. Whenever I go out (couple of weeks), I would check to see if the towel needed to be replaced. Prior to this there are lots of moisture in the hive and mold would grow inside the hive. After this, I don't see much moisture and no mold at all.


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## ericweller (Jan 10, 2013)

In loss, there is knowledge. It is good that you are angry at the loss and are looking for something that you can "change or correct". I suggest you find a local club and attend some meetings. That is where you will learn what works. Sure, you can go about beekeeping without reaching out to local beeks for input but the learning curve is greater and more expensive. IMHO, your problem is not caused by lack of heat for the hive.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

I would suspect moisture or maybe a blocked bottom entrance. Both good reasons to have an upper entrance. I run a 2 1/1 inch feed shim that has a 3/4 inch hole on front side that serves very well as a to entrance.

Due to your high humidity I would add a ventilation box above. Use a cloth underside or a 1/8 mesh on the bottom and place a piece of burlap on top. I would recommend 4 inches of pet shavings. Make the quilt box 5 1/2 inches deep so you can provide end holes or a screened slot so there is good ventilation on the top side of the shavings.

Attached is a link to a video with some ideas on insulation and ventilation box(substitute shavings for the burlap and make a large, 6 inch or more, screened hole in the center of the box and cover screen with burlap or totally screen the bottom.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaidqYALcaI


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

lalldredge>> Keep collecting the pieces of the puzzle and then learn how to put it all together, piece by piece. 
Beware there are extras and some pieces may be left over as they are useless.
Your bees, your game plan.
Oh yeah, keep an open mind


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I have the units from Warmbees.com. I even bought the expansion boards and use them in my tiny nucs. Not much of a winter here in coastal VA but they come in handy for the colonies that don't have a large enough cluster of bees to survive when the temps stay in the teens for a few weeks. I've never had to use them on my full size hives, but then I'm running topbar hives, so the heat and moisture distribution is different than in a Lang hive. Send me a private message if you want more insight on the boards.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

LAlldredge, I would like to know what you mean by "varroa control throughout with none going into fall". In my experience, almost every time a hive dies in December, it died from mites. In my area, going into fall means summer and there are very few issues with varroa in summer. As soon as fall comes, varroa totals skyrocket. Late fall is when the hives die if varroa is not under control. My first 2 years of beekeeping, every hive died in December. The inside was wet and moldy and I was positive they died from moisture problems. It turns out, a pile of dead bees releases a lot of moisture and with no living bees left, the air stagnates. Because there is no circulation in the hive anymore, everything gets wet and stays that way. If you can, please post a picture of some of the brood frames. It would be interesting to do a mini-autopsy.


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

crofter said:


> Can you describe the "moisture board". Also exactly how much insulation above it and on the exterior of the feeding shim.
> 
> The moisture board is exactly like MannLake's moisture board on their website although it was not purchased from them. Here was my sequence-
> 1) August Sequence of oxalic dribble followed by early November Apivar strips- weekly sticky board testing (if not daily) and sugar roll testing- very low to no mite counts going into winter config.
> ...


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

LAlldredge said:


> 1) August Sequence of oxalic dribble followed by early November Apivar strips- weekly sticky board testing (if not daily) and sugar roll testing- very low to no mite counts going into winter config.


An August oxalic dribble would be useless. By the time Apivar was applied the colony was already doomed. 
Sorry but it was mites.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Not directed at me but a question for you, what is meant by sequence of oxalic dribble?
Do you mean oxalic acid vaporization?

If not, multiple OA dribbles and the timing may well be the cause of your troubles.


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## WillH (Jun 25, 2010)

Apivar in November could be too late. I prefer September. I have never got consistent results from OA. Too many variables.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

WillH said:


> Apivar in November could be too late. I prefer September. I have never got consistent results from OA. Too many variables.


tough to treat with OA in late summer/early fall in our neck of the woods due to brood being present into October and at times early November.
if the only late season treatment is apivar in November in our location it is certainly too late.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

clyderoad said:


> If not, multiple OA dribbles and the timing may well be the cause of your troubles.


That was my first thought as well. A series of dribble treatments at that time of year could have been extremely hard on the brood and really disrupted the colony building up later with winter bees.

How many dead bees did you find in the hive? Did it appear the overall population was lower than it should have been?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

LAlldredge, sorry for the loss of your bees. In reading your posts it appears that you have decided that the "culprit" is lack of external heat on hives that you insulated with a bee cozy. I strongly suggest that you look to other sources for the cause of your hives demise as you seem to have fixated on the one that is the least likely. The repeated OAV dribbles, late application of Apivar, and the use of Fipronil anywhere near a beehive are all much better candidates. Last year our temps here in VA dropped to -8°F for a day and remained in the low teens thoughout the week. I lost one nuc that was treated too late, Apivar in Nov. at an out yard. The other nuc and both colonies at my home yard survived in uninsulated hives with screened bottom boards. Cold did not kill your bees. Best of luck next year.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

You are correct that beekeepers can rarely agree on much of anything, but if they do would you have an open mind about it? I ask because I think the vast majority would disagree with your conclusions, especially people who successfully overwinter bees in very cold climates. It appears you are reading a lot, trying to learn and are vigilant about keeping your bees. I think you misunderstood a few things and your timing was off like others have mentioned. We have all been there so welcome to the club. J


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

clyderoad said:


> tough to treat with OA in late summer/early fall in our neck of the woods due to brood being present into October and at times early November.
> if the only late season treatment is apivar in November in our location it is certainly too late.


The reason that I know it wasn't mite kill was- there was no mite drop at all on the sticky boards in either hive from Mid October through early November. After the deadout there was still no mite drop evidence. Surely there would have been evidence of mites if the colony had collapsed. I have read a lot from Randy Oliver about OAV dribble and even some late summer applications when it's too hot for MAQS and while supers are on. I sampled one hive that started to spike (over 10 a day) in mid July and started my treatment immediately. 1 treatment every 5 days for a total of 5. The goal was mite free by end of August. I'm wondering if that weakened brood rearing but I was more concerned about varroa. One brood pattern actually improved after treatment.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Multiple back to back OA drizzle has not been widely touted. Multiple vaporizations yes. In view of the mite drop counts it would appear that something else might be going on besides mite collapse.

I do think that jumping on the "lack of added heat" being the cause needs some more thought. Are you certain that your drizzle consisted of the proper concentration of OA?


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

crofter said:


> Multiple back to back OA drizzle has not been widely touted. Multiple vaporizations yes. In view of the mite drop counts it would appear that something else might be going on besides mite collapse.
> 
> I do think that jumping on the "lack of added heat" being the cause needs some more thought. Are you certain that your drizzle consisted of the proper concentration of OA?


I got the concentration amount from BeeSource and the math looked good. But it did make me nervous to apply it because this style is usually done mid winter with no brood. What I am investing in next year is a Varrox wand. After reading what others have said I'm also adding an outdoor unheated shed, upper entrance with quilt box with holes and burlap. I really miss the flying kids. Thanks to all who offered suggestions.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

At one time, I was trying OAD and posted in the forums here that I was trying it out. In the beginning, I thought it was doing OK. But with repeated treatments during the year, I came to the conclusion that it was not good, and was maybe hard on the queens as I had read in places. I like you had read conflicting information about it. I'm hoping it was not from my postings that you decided to give it a try yourself, because I like you lost hives, but unlike you, the repeated OAD is what I attribute the losses to.

I came out of last winter with no survivors, I attribute it, at least partly, to the using of OAD mulitple times as my only treatment last year. There are reports that it can be hard on queens. There are other reports that it works. I decided to try it myself and ended up with all hives lost. The OAD may not be the only reason, I did have other issues last year (2017) but I think it was the main cause.

I hope you keep up beekeeping and find a management system that works well for you. I have enjoyed this year's break from beekeeping for me. It has given me a good rest from it. Someone a couple weeks ago gave me two hives and enough spare equipment to make up two more. Unfortunately, these two are weak and probably won't make it to spring. They have some stores but had not been treated for varroa in a properly timed manner this year. I'm hoping they do, as I've ordered 3 queens for making splits in the spring from them.

It is my opinion that varroa is the most number one base cause of beekeeping problems. The next two would be queen viability or lack of stores. I think the best beekeeping management is where I manage the mites, the bees can then have a much better chance of living well through the fall, winter, and early spring. Manage mites, have good queens, and never let stores drop to low.

Good luck to you next year.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>My emotions started out as sadness to pissed off to developing the action plan for next year.<<

ha ha sounds like me!

moisture, yes, a huge factor to consider when preparing the winter set up for your hives. Upper entrance is always a good idea, hive top insulation is pretty much standard. I've seen guys in milder wetter climates actually wrap to protect from wet rather than cold.


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

Ian said:


> >>My emotions started out as sadness to pissed off to developing the action plan for next year.<<
> 
> ha ha sounds like me!
> 
> moisture, yes, a huge factor to consider when preparing the winter set up for your hives. Upper entrance is always a good idea, hive top insulation is pretty much standard. I've seen guys in milder wetter climates actually wrap to protect from wet rather than cold.


So happy to see you Ian!!!! I follow your YouTube channel and have learned a lot. I don't give up. Ever.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Multiple back to back OA drizzle has not been widely touted. Multiple vaporizations yes


arguably because no one make money on OAD, but they do on OAV... most OAD studys were 2-3x treatments

With varroamed (pre packed OAD) being approved in the UK are rated for 10x treatmetns a year, supers on, etc it being touted more..
that being said, climate seems to matter to the impact on the bees.
I do 1x a year brood less and 3x7 on a problem hive as a rescue... 
5x5 seems a bit much to even me, I don't know of any one who would suggest that would be a good idea .... OAD lasts longer in the hive so you may have built the levels up to be toxic.

I don't think you problem is something you didn't do, I think its something you did. 
You may have messed them up with an OA overdose, the yellow jacket atack sujsets you may have had a weak hive. 
You may have fed too late in your wet climate for them to ripen it, leading to excess moisture..
what stick in my head is the feeding focus... syrup, winter paddies, sugar blocks /mt camo, etc. The real question is why was the hive so weak it needed all that extra help at the end... that may be your real issue.

You have cold in you head... by your winter prep you had cold in your head from the start. 
Now your talking indoor wintering in zone 6 and electric heaters for next year..

my advice is #1 start with mite washes next year... boards are just slightly better then tea leaves, especially for a new keeper. 
Do a wash on a bunch of the dead bees and see what you find, yes you treated, but time to rule out catching a mite bomb


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

There are 2 tests you can do to rule out mites as a culprit - on a deadout.
1. Check the dead bees with an alcohol wash. Well, probably any liquid and a mesh, so the bees stay above the mesh and the mites fall through. I have seen hives that had low mite counts (alcohol wash) in Sept die of mites - with counts at 60 mites/300 bees, which is 20% of bees having mites - due to mites immigrating into the hive when that hive went robbing. Strong hives can die like that.

2. Check the brood comb, especially near the dead bee cluster, for mite poop. It will be on the ROOF of the cells of brood comb (that is the dark colored comb). Mite poop will look like tiny white grains, like a powdered sugar dot. Mites deposit frass on the roof of the cell when they successfully reproduce. To look, flip the brood comb upside down, and use a headlamp or penlight, it's so much easier. If you see more than 1 in a 7x7 patch (so that is 1 in 50 brood compromised, so 2 %) I would say varroa mites played a role.

There is one more possibility - are you sure that your queen was laying well through Sept? If for some reason she stopped laying early, then there would not be enough bees born through September to be "winter bees" - the ones with the fat deposits so they can last months without feeding and then can raise brood without much resources coming in. Sometimes a hive will swarm late and then have a young queen in Sept, and it is hard to tell if the queen mother left many frames of capped brood in August. You'll still see a fair number of bees covering the combs but you won't see eggs or young larvae for a couple of weeks - they would have been the winter bees. If you did not see eggs/larvae with every inspection in August and Sept - oh wait, if you have a dearth, that will also slow the queen laying - actually I would say check with local beeks about typical queen laying patterns for your area.

Varroa mite drop is actually revealing dead mites being ejected from brood cells - it is showing _brood rearing_ not mite levels. Randy O makes that very clear - http://scientificbeekeeping.com/tag/mite-drop/#natural-mite-drop-vs-alcohol-wash Varroa mites are very good at holding on and will not readily be chucked off. 

But the mite drop post OAD or OAV is very informative, by contrast. If you did not see much mite drop after ANY of the OAD treatments, that is either 1) a sign the treatment didn't work, or 2) a sign there already weren't many mites, maybe due to low brood levels due to some other problem. Really you'd expect at least 200 mites dropping with a treatment in August...But most importantly, mite drops in Aug/Sept do not tell you mite levels in Oct or Nov, when there are fly days and your hives can go robbing and bring home more than honey. 

Sigh... So many beeks try so hard to do everything right, and their hives still can die of mites. We are still as a beekeeping community learning how to combat this wily predator. On top of that, assessing a colony's health takes a lot of training - there is so much info that you can glean from an inspection, as long as you know what you're looking for! and you get to the right frames. Here is a great vid on inspecting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcfqTx4_FAo 

good luck, just remember those bees did not die in vain - your next bees will have all that drawn comb to work with and you will have to watch out for swarming!!! be careful to safeguard those resources from bees robbing (close it really tight, and double check during 45+ degree sunny days) and from small hive beetle (comb must freeze hard, 20s, or put in your freezer) and from mold (get those dead bees out, AFTER you mite check them, and pull your screened bottom board with the hive entrances closed up, for airflow).


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## LAlldredge (Aug 16, 2018)

There is one more possibility - are you sure that your queen was laying well through Sept? 


good luck, just remember those bees did not die in vain - your next bees will have all that drawn comb to work with and you will have to watch out for swarming!!! be careful to safeguard those resources from bees robbing (close it really tight, and double check during 45+ degree sunny days) and from small hive beetle (comb must freeze hard, 20s, or put in your freezer) and from mold (get those dead bees out, AFTER you mite check them, and pull your screened bottom board with the hive entrances closed up, for airflow).[/QUOTE]

I never loved either queens brood pattern and found both spotty so I'm wondering if it left low populations going into fall. There were declining mite counts from the OAD so that appeared to have some desired effect although it may have been harsh and exacerbated the problem. Going to OAV should fix it. I was really upset when I found them and swept most of them away so not enough to wash. But the bottom boards showed only 2 mites on one bottom board and none on the other. Frames are now in the freezer for 48 hours at least until they can be stored. They have left a legacy.

I'm also going to find a local club that I can relate to. Didn't get a good feel from the one that sold my nuc. The students were really having a hard time and I was learning more from video's than the teacher was teaching. He was also advising things like not to use smoke at all. Maybe for someone experienced that can be done. But I carry smoke with me for my protection. I don't always use it but I will have it. At the same time I'm also spotting my queens almost every time and not using gloves so I'm getting better.


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## Jadeguppy (Jul 19, 2017)

Chiming in on the beekeeping is regional comment. This is why you often get different advise from different people. I live minutes from the Gulf of Mexico, NW Florida. Robbin lives on the north end of the county next door. East-West of each other, but I'm on the extreme south end. This fall his bees were done brooding and were getting ready for winter, while mine had multiple frames full of brood and had not slowed down. Keep in mind that elevation in Florida is flat and slightly less flat. I hit the water table in less than 8 feet. Timing is something that I struggle with here due to this issue. I can't seem to ever make the local club meetings, so timing remains a bit of a guessing game for me. I can free mate queens later in the year than most, but if I wait until you guys start your spring prep, mine have already swarmed. Hang in there. Get on the waiting list for a local nuc or two so you can get it as early as possible and spend next year learning to split the hive. That will hopefully send you into winter with enough hives that some will make it to spring and you can build up more from there.


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## crankhandl (Nov 23, 2014)

LAlldredge said:


> After reading extensively and watching countless video's my first two hives have died. You can try and do everything right *varroa control throughout with none going into fall *queens bred for winter *fall feeding in September*winter protection which included a moisture board right over the feeding shim and the advice of no upper entrance to prevent heat from leaving. This last part from a bee supplier was terrible advice and I take responsibility for following it. The beekeeping community doesn't make this easy on new people when they themselves can't agree.
> 
> I really don't care to hear "cold doesn't kill bees" dialogue. And yes I know that the best in the world will disagree with me on this. So be it. My hives died when it was consistently in the teens at night. My emotions started out as sadness to pissed off to developing the action plan for next year.
> 
> There are reasons why feral colonies are in old buildings and walls of unsuspecting houses. People are using terrarium heaters and heat tape and home made configurations and such with success. Next year will be different for me. I'm breaking from the conventional wisdom and creating more ventilation alongside providing 40 degree direct heat for the cluster. WarmBees has a product that I'll be trying next year. And it's a shame it took me to this point to even find it. Challenging a current belief system in any field always sees a degree of resistance. The bees appear to like it and that's evidence enough for me.


Condensation will always be a factor, perhaps some fly screen over top of hive vents and let the ladies propalise what they don't need. Then again I lost a few hives this year, here in Australia where it is warmer. I just put it down to bad luck, they still had plenty of provisions, and no sign of disease, but we did have a longer than normal winter followed by a cold spring, with lots of overcast, no nosema cause I do tea tree and manuka honey. 

Regards 

Tea tree Stan


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## vtbeeguy (Jun 10, 2016)

I can't comprehend a "teacher/mentor" advocating for beginners to not have and use smoke. Your gut to distrust that person seems spot on imo. I understand the frustration of losing hives. I had bad losses my first 2 years figuring out Varroa treatment timings and when and how to feed them for winter. Keep at it you will get it.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Cold kills weak small clusters, sometimes... here's the question, what was the population, in terms of, how many frames did the bees fully cover, in say October, or even September, and how many did you find or estimate were dead in the hive.


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## clong (Apr 6, 2015)

LAlldredge said:


> the advice of no upper entrance to prevent heat from leaving. This last part from a bee supplier was terrible advice and I take responsibility for following it. The beekeeping community doesn't make this easy on new people when they themselves can't agree.
> 
> I really don't care to hear "cold doesn't kill bees" dialogue. And yes I know that the best in the world will disagree with me on this. So be it. My hives died when it was consistently in the teens at night. My emotions started out as sadness to pissed off to developing the action plan for next year.
> 
> There are reasons why feral colonies are in old buildings and walls of unsuspecting houses. People are using terrarium heaters and heat tape and home made configurations and such with success. Next year will be different for me. I'm breaking from the conventional wisdom and creating more ventilation alongside providing 40 degree direct heat for the cluster.


I'm sorry to hear about your bees. I lost my first two hives by the beginning of November a few years ago.

You can keep bees without top ventilation. This is my third year doing so. But it does depend on local conditions and hive setup. The hive must be insulated on the top at minimum. This forces any condensation to occur on the inner walls of the hive. If the whole hive is well-insulated all around, there may not be any condensation at all. I think of insulation as a crude way to simulate a tree, so that the bees can regulate their own environment with less effort. I've seen the bees moving around freely in a hive when the outside temps were in the teens, while the temp in the hive was 49F. However, insulation won't help if you already have sick bees, and/or a small cluster.

I hope you will heed all of the good advice, find a local mentor, and keep working on what works best in your location. Don't give up.

Here is a link on the benefits of insulating a hive:

http://www.nnjbees.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Winterization-and-Hive-Insulation-v20151013.pdf


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## johnsof (Oct 14, 2014)

I'm sorry but teens is not cold! Where I live teens is a warm winter day; we just had a few days of -30F!
Mites, mites, mites. If you are only treating in August and you live in a place where teens is "cold" then you probably didn't treat nearly late enough. Personally I use a dribble as I don't really wish to drag a heavy battery around. And as mentioned if you are only looking at a sticky board you are relatively clueless, it isn't that accurate.


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