# Requeening colony of bees in a commercial operation.....



## MichaBees (Sep 26, 2010)

I went to a seminar where Randy Oliver said he re-queens 3 or 4 times a year!


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

ted do we commercial beekeepers get to say how many times a year we do it or is this just to see what people think of commercial beekeepers


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I have no experience with commercial....I'll guess southern bee keepers on a regular steady plan not under the direct assualt of AHB requeen 25%. My guess is one out of four hive in 
production have a fresh queen placed in them including new splits. The number probably grows as you move north.

How long does it take someone with experience to pinch and requeen 100 hives?


Is thier a prize?


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

Micha,
Did Randy Oliver say why he requeened so often? It seems like he wouldn't do it unless he saw a cost-effective benefit to it.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

"Commercial beekeepers are supposed to be requeening their bees one to three time a year"

Well, I don't believe it. Is this in a book or study or something?


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## MichaBees (Sep 26, 2010)

Canoemaker; he said their productivity is huge at their first months of their life cycle, he produces bees and he sees an advantage as to how strong his colonies turn.
He takes his colonies to almonds, and then, he makes 4 nucs out of one colony, he keeps one and sells 3. 

Hey, do you make canoes? can you tell me of a good plan/blue print? I want to make some canoes for the orphanage.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

This is what I found here.
http://www.freshfromflorida.com/pi/plantinsp/apiary/apiary.html



. Recommend re-queening with European stock every six months unless using marked or clipped queens 
and having in possession a bill of sale from a EHB Queen Producer.


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

I'm thinking y'all requeen once a year. In the spring before the flow or in the fall so you can have a young queen to
go through the winter and be ready to build up quick in the spring. How close does that sound?
Well, no. I don't believe the first line. I've heard that some comms. have to rush around just to get
thier checks done, dead outs picked up, first supers on etc. Besides not getting rid of stuff that's still working like
old trucks, boxes, extractors...this costs money that comes out of your profits.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

"y'all" doesn't apply here cause y'all don't manage bees the same.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> How many times a year do you really think commercial beekeepers requeen their bees?


Never or hardly ever. Leastwise I don't know anyone who does. Not actually whole operation requeening.


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

I'm Sorry Barry, I guess I didn't understand Ted's question.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

That's OK, not sure I do either.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

If you are commercial tell how many times a year you requeen. If you are not, tell what you have heard that commercial beekeepers do. No one will think the worst of you, because Barry is right-everyone runs thier bee businesses in a different manner. So what you heard may correct for that particular operation or area of the country...I am with Mark, I do not know of any commercials that are blanket requeening anymore...TED


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

Ok. How about me saying it like this. I'm tinkin' youse commecial guys do da requeenin' onlys onest a years. Dats my ideers
aboot it anyways.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ted wrote:

How many times a year do you really think commercial beekeepers requeen their bees?

We only requeen when they desperately need it. The only time we will kill a queen is when they get 3 "M"s on the roof for mean(for three inspections they where mean). We have often times noted that the average hive the previous year does very well the next, and vice versa. One year is not enough time to evaluate a queen, or her descendants.

Crazy Roland


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

How often do they desperately need it?
What percentage of your total hives?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> I do not know of any commercials that are blanket requeening anymore...TED


I know a few,But, this is how I blanket mine, I take a yard of 216 out of the 216, 50 are poor to junk so just shake them on the ground, now we have about 150 or so good ones. Pour some 90% formic on top wait a day spilt them to 300 singles & cell. Come back in a month, out of the three hundred, 250-260 are nice.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Can you explain? Does the Formic kill the queen or do you pinch her? Do you split into nucs or split deeps?
Come back in a month is that it no feed no checking cels


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Steven Ogborn said:


> Ok. How about me saying it like this. I'm tinkin' youse commecial guys do da requeenin' onlys onest a years. Dats my ideers
> aboot it anyways.


  That makes me wonder...does the White House bees get requeened annually, semi-annually, or every four years?


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

I'm thinking that there aren't that many queen breeders or queens being produced these days, so it can't be 3-4 times a year, I just don't see where all the queens would be coming from. So I'm gonna guess that they only replace between 25 and 50% of their queens every year.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

Intheswamp said:


> That makes me wonder...does the White House bees get requeened annually, semi-annually, or every four years?


I don't know, but if I were those bees I'd be worried about their fate once regeime change occurs. I doubt the next president will be willing to allow them to stay.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> spilt them to 300 singles & cell.


I guess that's requeening if you are putting a cell in each part of the split and they take the cell over the queen. Or if the old queen is dead. Is that what you mean?


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

i guess i requeen once a year in the summer i stick a cell in the top of all the hives. Its not the greatest way to do it i probably gets rid of 50% of the queens. 

I would like to hear more on your method Keith that sounds like a great way to do it. I just bought the formic to try it, if i could hear your method again that would be great


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I only requeen colonies that appear to need or would benefit from a new queen. I've heard and have known beekeepers who move their operations south, and find it's necessary to requeen every year, and resident Florida beekeepers requeen twice a year with cells in the supers.

I couldn't imagine having to requeen every colony every year. In fact, I think, in my position and area, it is a bad idea. I'm raising my own stocks. I know that many queens last 2-3 years and their performance doesn't suffer.

With all the talk about failing queens and so many queens being superceded within 18 months, how will we select for queens that will continue to be productive in their second and third year if we are constantly killing off our queens after one year?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I have the impression that hives are re queened once a year at least. They will be re queened more only if necessary. I have also seen comments that cause me to think it may be as low as 10% per year.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

My mentor says the queens perform the best in their second year...this is in south Alabama, in case the climate matters.

Ed


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Why would I want to requeen everything I have in one year? I have resistant genetics in my bees that developed over the last twenty years. So if I blanket requeen, I set my operation back twenty years. WE spot requeen when need be and bring in new genetics when need be. Also the cost of requeening annually, bi annually, tri annually would be prohibitive, ridiculous, and ludicrous. TED


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Yes Ted, but you don't move your bees to the almonds either. If you take only those beekeepers that send their bees to almonds and do other pollination work, I suspect there is a strong percentage that NEED to requeen twice a year. I don't think anyone requeens unless they need to.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Sometimes people get stuck in their ways. 

Years ago my brother was having a conversation with a local third (or fourth) generation farmer. Talk turned to crops to plant the coming spring. Corn prices would gain you a net loss on a crop. The farmer mentioned that he was planting corn. The conversation turned to the reasons *not* to plant corn and the farmer and my brother agreed on those reasons and that it probably wasn't the best thing to plant. As the farmer started to leave my brother asked him what he was going to plant. The farmer responded with, "Corn". My brother asked him why. The response he got was..."Because that's what Daddy would plant". :scratch:

This holds true for a large portion of society, an example that can be seen on this forum...a diverse group of people with some set in their ways and opinionated, others that have no way but are still opinionated, and some that look at things objectively and share what works for them while still being open to new ideas. We all have ideas...some that are similar, some that are far different.

I haven't got anywhere near the point of re-queening a colony, I probably have a year or three before I'll be there. I'll probably just go by performance, health, attitude of the colonies...no calendar involved. I tend to agree with what Ted K. has basically said in regards to a commercial operation...re-queen as needed or to add in some different genetics. Simply throwing money into new queens to replace performing stock doesn't seem like it would be good business. Someone mentioned queens that go to almonds needing replacing often...I have no idea about that. ?

Ed


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Intheswamp said:


> That makes me wonder...does the White House bees get requeened annually, semi-annually, or every four years?


It could be 8 if she gets re-elected.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Mbeck wrote:

How often do they desperately need it?
What percentage of your total hives? 

Of the queenright hives, less than 2 percent a year get culled. 

Sometimes there are 30-40 percent of the hives that lose a queen in the Spring and Summer. That usually only happens when we have cold and/or damp weather. We have seen a pattern of package queens failing after a round and a half of brood, but not every year, and if so, it generally effects all packages, regardless of origin.

For reference, we are sedentary, and do not use any miticides.

Crazy Roland


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Barry, we used to ship to Almonds. But from Alabama, it is really hard on the bees. And the last time we went and came back, CCD had killed half the bees we had shipped out. So, while I will not say if splitting back everything using cells would be a round about way of requeening, I can say it is a rough row to hoe. Some of that equipment that the bees died from CCD, to this day-four years later- you can not get bees to stay alive in it. So we have taken to just burning it. I think Roland has had an experience or two with the same problem-bees and CCD equipment. Nor can I say requeening a colony that has had the stuff works either. TED


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## Troy (Feb 9, 2006)

Ted, It's a shame that you've had to resort to burning it. Did you look into irradiation? Maybe you don't have a facility near you, but they have shown that irradiation works on the CCD boxes.

I looked into it here in FL, but I am not a big enough operation to have pallet loads for radiation. There is a minimum size of a large pallet of equipment and it is not cost effective to go there with a less than full pallet.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

There are management techniques that result in a significant number of queens being replaced on a yearly basis. One of them is to let your bees swarm. Another is to pull a couple of nucs from a colony in the spring and then by the fall the parent colony will usually supercede (this is about 30% effective in the south). Obviously the nucs would wind up with new queens. The end result is that on average between 30% and 50% of colonies wind up with a new queen on a yearly basis.

From a pure beekeeping perspective, NOT requeening causes seriously reduced production when considered on the averages.

DarJones


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Fusion_power said:


> There are management techniques that result in a significant number of queens being replaced on a yearly basis. One of them is to let your bees swarm.


:nooes Mark point the finger at you when you let them swarm or is it because you are commercial that it makes it OK?

Sorry I couldn't resist Mark.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

So Dar, this brings me to this statement/question....Why would I want to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on purchased queens when I also know the chances she will not be heading up the colony I placed her in 3-6 months laters??? WE found all this out from being forced by the state of Alabama to mark our queens before the queens and their respective colonies were shipped to and from California. Most of the marked queens were not there and had been replaced by the bees by the time they had come home or a few months afterwards. TED


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I've heard that some beekeepers requeen what must be several times a day! I read Michael Bush sometimes has dozens of queens in cages in a single hive at once! 

The one commercial migratory beekeeper I have known in person requeened once a year with queens from Kona in Hawaii. It never made sense to me because at the time, those queens would be guaranteed to be completely defenseless against varroa. From what I've been told, he lost just about all his bees to CCD a couple years ago. I never saw a fresh frame of comb in any of his hives, they were all black as night. It was Duragilt so you could see patches of plastic too. He's the one who inspired me to become a commercial beekeeper. Not so much anymore.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> So Dar, this brings me to this statement/question....Why would I want to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on purchased queens when I also know the chances she will not be heading up the colony I placed her in 3-6 months laters??? ...<snip>...TED


The only reason I would guess at would be to change genetics...maybe to get some varroa resistance in the colonies or maybe something like Russell's Tiger bees (when they become available). But, as for simply doing it to "refresh" with, as ya'll have stated...the bees will do that. But who am I do speak up...just a newbee. 

Ed


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I'm wondering if the thread starter was really just wanting to dispel one of the myths around commercial beekeeping.

The myth goes that commercial bees are so weak they have to be constantly requeened. I've seen statements from respected members, (who are not commercial beekeepers), that commercial queens only last for 3 months these days, and that commercial beekeepers requeen 2 times a year on average. These are stated as if they are facts.

There may be examples where this has happened. However it is not the norm.


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## cleareyes (Mar 2, 2008)

All my hives get requeen with a queen cell. 14 days later a miticide is applied. This is the only way I know that will keep varroa under control...


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ted wrote:

I think Roland has had an experience or two with the same problem-bees and CCD equipment. Nor can I say requeening a colony that has had the stuff works either. 

Yes, we have had CCD on the past. One of the symptoms was that the bees continually requeened themselves. So no, requeening has little or no effect on surviving CCD. New bees in old equipment makes for more dead bees. 

One cure is new bees in new equipment.

Ted - how much old equipment to burn do you have? It gets cold up here.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> One cure is new bees in new equipment.
> Crazy Roland


A cure implies that old bees are saved.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Oldtimer said:


> These are stated as if they are facts.


How many almond beekeepers have you talked to that don't fit the 2 queens per year statement?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We requeen our entire outfit each spring. Expensive? For us it's the cost of raising a cell and the labor involved in making splits. Yeah it's a pretty big job but my experience in honey production has shown me that nothing can produce a honey crop as consistently as a well timed nuc "on the grow" headed by a young queen. A 3 comb nuc with a cell made up about 10 weeks ahead of a major flow and good buildup conditions should yield a full box of bees and brood. As long as you get boxes on in time swarming and supercedure is rarely a problem. Sure if you want to analyze genetics and let them overwinter you will probably learn a bit more about them but I would question that a hive headed by a second year queen is necessarily better than a first year queen if for no other reason that the second year is when you will also begin to see failures particularly if you are taxing them by extending the demands made on them through an extended pollination season followed by honey production.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I guess this really points to the variation in beekeeping and how the equation can be different for different operations. For my own education I would like to know where the queen comes from on this requeening agenda. If you are calling requeening a results of splits then that is an offspring of the mother hive as opposed to buying a queen from another source. To me splits are different than requeening from an outside source.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Ace, Read the thread title. It says "requeening colony of bees in a commercial operation". It says nothing at all about how they are requeened. Even a little bit of selection goes a long way when it comes to requeening. If you raise queens from the best 10% of your colonies, the improvement in genetics can be measured in just one year. Do that constantly for 10 years and be sure the selection criteria are rational and exclusive enough and you can double production per colony. That is a measurable difference that you can put in the bank.

As for first year queens vs second year queens, Brother Adam had worked it out to an art to use queens in their second year but first fully productive season. He raised queens in nucs in the summer, overwintered them in nucs, then requeened all colonies so that they went into spring with a young healthy queen. I have seen repeatedly that a queen less than 5 weeks old will lay less than after they are past 5 weeks. This can be a critical difference if you are using new queens for the spring season with only 10 weeks for buildup.

Ted, I don't know why you would want to spend thousands on queens.... unless it were necessary to make a crop of honey. I would agree that with appropriate management, you don't have to go that route. On the other hand, a good management plan that incorporates producing nucs and overwintering them can result in a major improvement in production and does NOT require much more than some work on the part of the beekeeper.

DarJones


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Fusion_power said:


> I have seen repeatedly that a queen less than 5 weeks old will lay less than after they are past 5 weeks.
> 
> DarJones


I hadn't heard this before. To me it's all about build up conditions, how much fresh pollen and nectar are coming in, nightime temps and the number of nurse bees available. While it may take a new queen a few days to get up to speed, after that I will put a young queen up against an older one any day.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> I will put a young queen up against an older one any day.


Stop, we have a winner. That goes for more than just queen bees.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Guys, the one year old queen vs 2 year old queen discussion in the last few posts is not comparing apples with apples, for several reasons. One, quoting Brother Adam will no doubt be correct, but Brother Adam was pre varroa. Jim, if I get him correctly, is talking about a situation where he makes splits or nucs and gets the advantage of that quick buildup, plus outbreeding mites and other ailments, rather than a tired old second year hive that's been on almonds and whatever other stress has been thrown at it. For me, my bees live in a fairly bee friendly enironment and second year queens are as good as first year, couldn't say they are better though.
Both viewpoints are correct, depending on circumstances. 



Barry said:


> How many almond beekeepers have you talked to that don't fit the 2 queens per year statement?


 How many exactly? Heck, I wouldn't know. Let's just say several, including one yesterday. Nobody I've talked to requeens more than once a year. But as I said earlier, that's not to say it doesn't happen, as you pointed out, it does.
However, to make a blanket statement about all commercial beekeepers, the context not being almond only, and say they requeen an average of 2 times a year, is not true. An average, means some less, some more. Having been a commercial beekeeper, and then for a time a full time commercial queen breeder, I cannot see the cost and time involved in requeening multiple times yearly could be justified, against the benefits. However, I don't know anything about almonds. If multiple requeening is a nessecary cost of doing business in almonds, and compensation is enough to allow for that, then that's what those beekeepers should do. But across the board of ALL commercial beekeepers, quite a few of them poo poo the idea of requeening more than once a year, or even once a year. So saying the AVERAGE is twice yearly, is not the case. A more accurate statement might be the MAXIMUM is twice yearly. More than that, is probably more to do with making increase, rather than requeening static hives.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Also just a little poke here. It's amazing how much new stuff I've learned about what commercial beekeepers do, from those who aren't one, since I've been on beesource.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

In this operation of mine, most hives have a new momma heading them up by the second year. Swarming, splitting, nuc production, supercedure, and us intoducing new genetics by viable queens pretty well takes care of the requeening problem. But blanket requeening and requeening on a yearly basis or more often, no that does not happen. Yes, oldtimer, I started this thread to change an "urban" beekeeping legend and to find out if someone out there was really requeening multiple times during the year. Roland, we have about burnt all that CCD equipment....TED


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Why didn't you just say that?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Relax Sol. Hopefully you've had another myth busted.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Sol, If there is somebody out there requeening multiple times during the year blanket requeening on a commercial basis. I want to learn how the heck they are doing that. I would shake that person's hand and lay my hive tool at their feet. That person would be a better bee man than I ever thought about being. That information would be valuable to all of us. Some people use cells placed in the honey supers...Others use virgin queens-an old Thomas Norman method...Others shake their bees through a funnel and excluder, pinching the old queens and replacing them with new ones. So How I wrote the intro is the correct way. Thus we all can learn how everyone else is requeening. And by doing so, maybe disspelling some myths. TED


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Barry said:


> I suspect there is a strong percentage that NEED to requeen twice a year.


I have afriend who runs 3,000 cols and sends one or two loads to almonds and also raises queens to sell. He has queens available for his own use if he wished to, but doesn't requeen. Why do you think requeening would be necassary Barry?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Because in two beekeeping newsletters, Joe Traynor made the statement. Now thinking it over some more, I realize one could take it that he was making the statement to those that receive the newsletter (almond beekeepers), but I took it as a general statement to all commercial beekeepers. Joe is no little player in the bee business. He wouldn't make such a comment if there wasn't truth behind it. There are a lot more beekeepers that go to the almonds than those that are posting here. What do you think Mark?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Seems plausible. I have very limited experience w/ almond bees coming back east. The ones I have seen don't need requeening. They need splitting. But, like you write, Joe Traynor has more experience than I do.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I'm not sure where Joe is coming from with that statement. I only know of one outfit that requeens twice annually and their situation is pretty unique. I don't know of any honey producers that do it nor do I understand what they might gain by it. I fully understand that in our annual requeening we replace many queens that would still be viable for at least another year but choose to do so primarily because we have fewer queen failures as a result and also to set back varroa. Perhaps one of our California folks can enlighten us as to Joes thinking.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> I have afriend who runs 3,000 cols and sends one or two loads to almonds and also raises queens to sell. He has queens available for his own use if he wished to, but doesn't requeen.


If he dosn't requeen how does he stop swarming? how does he get his hives strong enough for honey and how does he handle such a large number of hives needing different management because of differing ages and stages of queens and queenlessness?

The operations I've seen around here that dont have a requeening program and rely on "natural" requeening have some of the meanest mongrel bees I've ever come across !


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

We try to requeen 50% of the hives every year. Requeening is done in May and flow starts in July. However, I am hearing talk of the ideas that Manitoba Beekeepers are being advised to look at requeening in July and even later. Why, so stronger queens are going into winter but also, our home raise queens are in limited supply in May because of weather and enough drones for mating. For us, some later rearing could bennifit us.. Not sure if i would take that route but it is an interesting idea.
Honestly, I do not know if i would have the time or strength to remove honey supers, pinch queens and then go back in 24 hours, remove honey supers and requeen.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

That comment about nasty tempered mongrels brings on a question. Ted, How do you handle the aggressive colonies? I've dealt with some seriously aggressive bees over the years. It takes all the fun out of beekeeping to have to wear a full suit every time a given colony is opened. Also, if a colony makes only dark honey and it is full of pollen, do you do anything about the queen? 

For background, here in Alabama, bees can collect from multiple floral sources. Some bees will preferentially collect light colored honey with excellent flavor while others will collect the darkest honey imaginable. I make a habit of only breeding from bees that collect the lighter colored honey. There are tradeoffs in doing so, the bees that collect dark honey tend to be much better pollen hoarders.

DarJones


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Honeyshack,
The following method, methods could be of interest to you. It avoids the lifting of those heavy supers twice.

http://www.carricell.com/Articals.html

Cells are introduced without de-queening.
Some years ago I decided to take the advice of an elderly beekeeper acquaintance and requeen my hives using 10 day protected queen cells. The cells are introduced around the end of the honey flow without first dequeening. This method induces a natural queen supercedure at a time of year when the weather is usually settled and bees will readily accept a new queen. If nectar is still coming in, I simply place a protected cell into the center of the third (honey) box. If the flow has finished, honey has been removed, or the hive looks hungry, it is essential to feed. In this case I place the protected cell between two outside frames near a feeder with a full 4 liters of syrup. 
It is important to use cells which will hatch the following day to allow the virgin time to become established in the hive and build up her strength while workers are busy storing their feed. This is also why I prefer to place cells away from the brood area and the old queen.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ernie,
What do you figure your success rate is? Your best guesstimation.


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## broodhead (May 30, 2009)

This method is good, and is one of the better ways for managing hives. I have been reading this thread for a few days while traveling out west and I must say that this has been interesting to say the least. Managing a hive doesn't mean that the calendar tells you to requeen, understanding and evaluating the hive is the key. Queens usually don't get into their prime until their second year, I have had queens that are superior producers into their third year. Sounds to me like someone has been drinking the Kool-Aid.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

honeyshack said:


> W
> Honestly, I do not know if i would have the time or strength to remove honey supers, pinch queens and then go back in 24 hours, remove honey supers and requeen.


When we requeen the new queen is introduced as soon as the old queen has been pinched we dont wait.
Works for us


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Dar, we do not have mean aggresive bees. I work them in a t-shirt most of the time. In the spring I don the bee suit because we have to handle them a lot rougher and do not want any extra stings. People that buy bees from me exclaim that they are gentle bees. I can not stand an aggresive bee. When I had russians, I finally destroyed the colonies to get rid of them-too aggresive. Alot of stock came in four years ago from Australia. They were Taylor made queens and the Italian, Carniolian breeders were two years out of Europe. We scatter the stock throughout the operation. Thus those colonies become drone producers. So if and when we have a supercedure or swarming, the new virgins from those transitioning colonies have some of the very best new genetics to breed with. Dar, you are more than welcome to come and see for yourself. That invitation goes for anybody that post on the forum, if you are passing through Alabama. WE have good bees and a good method to maintain the strain. TED


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

BEES4U said:


> Honeyshack,
> The following method, methods could be of interest to you. It avoids the lifting of those heavy supers twice.


Is it a good thing to continue doing long term when the mating is with the parent colony's drones?
Question: With this technique you are protecting the cells with tin foil so how does the queen get out of the cell?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

broodhead said:


> Queens usually don't get into their prime until their second year, I have had queens that are superior producers into their third year. Sounds to me like someone has been drinking the Kool-Aid.


My conclusion is that older queens aren't inherently better.....or worse just that there are fewer problems with young queens that have been allowed the proper build up time. I am absolutely convinced that with a larger sample that young queens perform better than older queens simply because of the lower rates of queen failures, swarming etc. What I didn't make clear earlier when I talked about a 10 week buildup time frame is that it is quite difficult for someone in a northern climate to pull this off consistently so you must be either migratory when can start your splitting 4 to 6 weeks earlier or if you operate like Mike Palmer does and make up summer nucs the previous year. I am pretty sure he would tell you that his nucs that come out of the winter strong are his best most trouble free honey producers.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Double post


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> I am pretty sure he would tell you that his nucs that come out of the winter strong are his best most trouble free honey producers.


Does he consider these 1/2 year queens first or second year?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Is it a good thing to continue doing long term when the mating is with the parent colony's drones?
> Question: With this technique you are protecting the cells with tin foil so how does the queen get out of the cell?


Virgin queens mate w/ drones from numerous sources, hardly ever from the colony they issue from. Queens fly farter to drone congregation areas than drones from the same colony do, supposedly. So mating w/ the drones the cell is placed in is minimal if at all. But, since the cell didn't come from that colony, why would it matter?

Ace, check out Cell Protectors in any Bee Supply Catalogs. I have never seen any made of tin foil. They are made from plastic and the queens have no problem emerging from them.


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

What about beekeepers who manage for control of varroa mites by removing the queens from their colonies at the beginning of the main honey flow, pluck any cells a week later, then a week later either return the queen or introduce a new queen. Is this something any/many commercial beekeepers do, or is it something limited to hobbyists? It's a lot of labor, but mite levels plummet, the broodless hive brings in more honey, and the colony can enter the winter with a young vigorous queen.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I am only going by the article which claimed that the drones were coming from the parent colony. Maybe this is because the requeening was done late in the season, I don't know. Assuming the statement is correct the harm is that you are getting genes only from one hive not several hives which would be normal from multiple drones.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The parent colony? Which parent colony? The colony that they queen cell's egg came from or the colony which the cell was placed in?

The queen is still going to be mated in a DCA, so, unless she only mates w/ one drone, which is very rare and rwesults in a queen which will get supersceded, she will be mated w/ by numerous drones. From 13 to 45 on average.

I don't think this deserves much worry.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

You win Mark. This is a quote from the article.

http://www.carricell.com/Articals.html


> However, the bee farmer does take on some risks when using queen cells rather than caged queens, such as unsuccessful mating or lost queens. Also, half the genetic make-up of the offspring will be from his or her own drones, and if the bee stock needs drastic improvement, caged queens will give quicker results.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It's not a contest. When we learn we all win. I learned something too. I'd never heard of foil cell protectors. They could come in handy when plastic ones aren't available.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Acebird said:


> You win Mark. This is a quote from the article.
> 
> http://www.carricell.com/Articals.html


I think he is misinformed about queens mating with drones from the same hive.The guy is just trying to sell his product.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

Acebird I think he means if the apiary genetics are poor then using a cell will keep part of those genetics from the drones. In that case introducing a mated queen from an outside source would improve the gene pool.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

mac said:


> I think he is misinformed about queens mating with drones from the same hive.The guy is just trying to sell his product.


Somebody with many years experience trying to sell something should not be misinformed in my book, that's why I was looking for some clarification from the forum.


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## Thermwood (May 29, 2010)

JD has it right.....or they are using cells from within the same apiary or operation


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

I have to agree with Jim on the new queens fire off better, But , also we feed so much sub nowdays that we really don't give queenee much time off.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

JD has it right re the statements intent, but I will give an example you can get your teeth into.

Let's say You have an apiary with 40 colonies and most of them are africanized. If you do the queen cell trick, the new queens are going to mate with a boat load of africanized drones. End result will be Africanized Bees. On the other hand, if you introduce a mated queen, you are bringing in entirely new genetics because the queen is already mated with drones that were present at the apiary where the queen was produced.

I'd like to stipulate that using queen cells in a queenright colony is NOT ALWAYS effective. It works in some parts of the country but not in others. It does not work worth 2 cents when there is no nectar or syrup coming in. Before you buy into doing this in a large operation, try it out and find out how effective it is.

DarJones


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

The "Bull of the woods" would agree with:

Queens usually don't get into their prime until their second year,

I am not so sure that with the advent of all of the viruses, that the above is still true.

No matter the queen, nothing straightens 'em out like a good honey flow in the spring.

Crazy Roland


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> What I didn't make clear earlier when I talked about a 10 week buildup time frame is that it is quite difficult for someone in a northern climate to pull this off consistently so you must be either migratory when can start your splitting 4 to 6 weeks earlier or if you operate like Mike Palmer does and make up summer nucs the previous year. I am pretty sure he would tell you that his nucs that come out of the winter strong are his best most trouble free honey producers.


The first thing i thought when you said 10 weeks is...heck, I'd have to make my splits in late March or early April. I have snow on my lawn in early April, and they're just starting to raise brood then. For us, with our short season, we have to make our spring splits in early to mid-May...when the dandelions are blooming...and even then they may not make much of a honey crop. Then the parent colony has to rebuild for the flow. Again, with our short season, if there are any problems...including weather...the parent colony doesn't make the crop they should because they're still building up when the flow comes on. 

That's one of the reasons to make them mid-summer and winter them. They're exploding come spring and the production colonies remain strong enough to make a full crop...whatever that may be for the year. The wintered nucs build up like nothing you've seen, and within two month, expanding them onto comb...they're filling supers.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Does he consider these 1/2 year queens first or second year?


You should ask him.

The queens in wintered nucs are second year queens. They've gone through a buildup and shutdown, and then through a winter.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The term "second year queen" doesn't mean she is two years old, right? Just that she was started in one summer and made it thru the winter following, into the spring and summer when the honey crop is made. Then by fall she is a one year old queen. Which you might make a nuc from mid summer and overwinter? Or do you pinch her head and make the nuc, for oiverwintering, w/ a queen cell or caged queen?


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

Carricell don't need to misinform to sell their product, their product has nothing to do with what queens or cells go into your hives do you even know what the product is they are talking about?

often when introducing cells your apiaries might be the only apiaries in the area hence the problem with queens being mated with their own drones this would of course only be a problem if you are rearing from your own stock.

We only ever use tinfoil it's cheap and easy. cut it into strips wrap it round the queencell leaving the bottom open of course then put it in the carricell and take it out to your apiaries, easy.

For us where we live 1st year queens outperform 2nds 90% of the time


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> That's one of the reasons to make them mid-summer and winter them. They're exploding come spring and the production colonies remain strong enough to make a full crop...whatever that may be for the year. The wintered nucs build up like nothing you've seen, and within two month, expanding them onto comb...they're filling supers.


Sounds a lot like what we see when we work with our Texas singles. So I guess we are down to semantics, are summer nucs headed by one or two year old queens when they start booming the next spring? I submit you can call them whatever you please as long as they are filling up boxes who cares?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Fusion_power said:


> Let's say You have an apiary with 40 colonies and most of them are africanized. If you do the queen cell trick, the new queens are going to mate with a boat load of africanized drones. End result will be Africanized Bees. On the other hand, if you introduce a mated queen, you are bringing in entirely new genetics because the queen is already mated with drones that were present at the apiary where the queen was produced.


Thing is, if we're talking about bees we seriously want to get rid of, and introducing cells, yes, they'll mate with local "bad" drones. So the queens will produce hybrid bees. But the drones they will produce will be pure, as drones don't have a father. So the following year, you put another batch of cells in (preferably unrelated to the previous years), and you'll have good mating.

BUT - nice theory but it doesn't quite work like that, because when introducing cells to a queenright colony, success% can be low. I've seen a lot of different numbers quoted and it depends on a lot of factors but could concieveably be 60%, which is about what we got when I was doing it. Some people do better though.

Which would mean it's actually going to take a heckuva long time to weed out all those africans, or whatever it is we're trying to get rid of.

However the reason this method "forced supersedure" is used, it's so easy, low in need for resources, quick, and almost zero disturbance to the hive. So a way to use this method but still completely get rid of an undesireable bee, is to put the cells in the hives in fall. The following spring a follow up visit is made and the hives examined to see which hives were successfully requeened. This is most easily done if the replacement bees can be differentiated by say, color. Then any hives that still have the undesireable queens are requeened with a mated queen. 

All drones produced by those bees will now be desireable. However, the queens producing hybrid bees will still produce a hybrid queen if allowed to supersede themselves. So that will still have to be managed.

So because of time and resources, requeening by placing cells can be a good way to get a heckuva lot of hives done in a short time. But if the purpose is to completely eradicate all traces of an undesireable strain from a yard, It can get you part way there, but more work will be needed later and good records.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

jim lyon said:


> So I guess we are down to semantics, are summer nucs headed by one or two year old queens when they start booming the next spring? I submit you can call them whatever you please as long as they are filling up boxes who cares?


Over hear they are called overwintered. If they were raised fall, and lived in a nuc not doing much over winter, they have not really been "worked", and will still be good queens. Such queens, where I am, will usually have two good seasons in front of them. Maybe supesedure prone towards end of the second season, but that's fine saves requeening.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Tin foil queen cell protectors, HMM......That is a little more radical than the one inch peices of rubber garden hose we cut sometimes to use as cell protectors in a pinch. TED


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> I submit you can call them whatever you please as long as they are filling up boxes who cares?


Well there, we've got that one settled. pshew, I was getting dizzy.


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## olddrown (Oct 28, 2009)

If you have a( great) queen in hive why would you think of killing her?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Because being Commercial has its own set of restraints and requirements to be successful businesswise. What makes sense in a Commercial operation may not make sense to a small scale beekeeper. Not being snooty, just the way it is.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Somebody with many years experience trying to sell something should not be misinformed in my book, that's why I was looking for some clarification from the forum.


 Maybe so but he is.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

mac said:


> Maybe so but he is.


Mac what are you on about?
what did he say that is mis information can you tell me because I don't see it?


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Tin foil queen cell protectors, HMM......That is a little more radical than the one inch peices of rubber garden hose we cut sometimes to use as cell protectors in a pinch. TED


WOW!!!! Ted, think about it a minute...this could also be the cure for CCD!!!! Little foil caps on all queen cells could protect them from EMF coming from the power lines and cellphone towers!!! They would be protected and could pass the EMF hygienic sensitivity down to their daughters causing a new caste of bees to be created...juicyfruit gum wrapper foragers!!!! Incredible how we find these things by simple conversation...









Ed

PS...not to mention the mind control factor coming from the government.....


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## oldreliable (Jan 29, 2011)

guess I just dont understand the need to "requeen" all of the time. queen only if they need it..and to me only if its not queen right....commercial or not.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I think that is a given with Joe's statements. It's not some sort of upper class luxury option.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

oldreliable said:


> guess I just dont understand the need to "requeen" all of the time. queen only if they need it..and to me only if its not queen right....commercial or not.


I will come at this from just a little different angle to help you understand. We requeen one time and one time only each year. We do it at the time and place of our choosing when the swarming, mating, and cell production conditions are optimum We do it so they we don't have to do it the rest of the year when we no longer have cells available, bees are scattered far and wide and we are busy harvesting a crop (remember this thread is about commercial requeening) Perhaps, for example, 5 percent of them fail in mid August when the winds are blowing and the temps may exceed 100 degrees. in those conditions it would be a fools errand to shut down our extracting operation and begin running around making up a handful of nucs in each yard unstacking full supers of honey in the process to access the needed brood. Sure we replace a lot of queens that have at least another good season ahead of them but the only thing I really care about is having as many productive hives as possible and reducing the failure rate of our hives through the next 12 months. The real issue isn't whether the queen is good when we replace her but rather will she last another year.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

frazzledfozzle said:


> Mac what are you on about?
> what did he say that is mis information can you tell me because I don't see it?


 Yes O.K. I went to the web site that was referenced and the part that states half the genetic make-up of the offspring will be from his or her own drones, is less than accurate. just my opinion.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

My mentor requeens a large percentage of his bees twice a year. Italians on top of Carnis is what he told me. 750 colonies requeened twice a year, BUT, he was mighty upset with fed ex recently so maybe he will be doing something different in the spring. It didn't seem cost effective in the least to me but I don't run a commercial, migratory operation.

He did mention to me several times that he works his bees to their limit all year, every year.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

At last Rwurster, we've heard of someone who does it more than once a year.

Now, the part I'm curious about is why exactly? IE what is the seasonal breakdown of what those bees are doing, that makes 2 queens a year nessecary, and does he do it during a flow, when he has to lift honey off, etc. It sounds like he buys the queens?

Sorry to bomb you with a heap of questions. . But I'm curious to know why someone would do this, and how it could be economical.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Im pretty sure the Italian queens are for a massive buildup before he ships to California for the almond season. As for why carnis... no clue, my guess would be because they tolerate our cold climate after they return from cali and do an early buildup.

When we talked he does 2 major migrations a year. One in the spring to the foothills at the base of the rocky mountains here for clover honey (he gets a couple thousand gallons of honey from this), then he migrates back for watermelon, pumpkin, squash, etc. pollination of local farmers crops, then he migrates to California for almond pollination. He said the queens are used up by the time they get pinched and he always re-queens everything at least once a year but half gets requeened twice a year, Italians on top of Carnis. I'll add this to my list of questions to bombard him with in the spring 

Edit: He does buy his queens and is particularly upset with UPS not guaranteeing priority delivery or next day delivery... something changed with UPSs delivery options. Saying he was upset is putting the UPS delivery matter very lightly.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Hmmm interesting rwurster, thanks, but I'm kind of feeling like I still have more questions than answers about pinching a 6 month old queen.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think the explanation was that you use the Italian queen to make bees that will stand bigger numbers without swarming for more honey production and then a Carni queen who will cut off brood to limit fall numbers to save feed and winter with small cluster. 

Seems like quite an involved and expensive process: was it ever really done and did it pay dividends, or was it a hypothetical exercise?


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

mac said:


> Yes O.K. I went to the web site that was referenced and the part that states half the genetic make-up of the offspring will be from his or her own drones, is less than accurate. just my opinion.


I apologise if you think I'm nit picking but what is it about that statement that you disagree with?

If you are going to say someone is misinformed meaning his information is incorrect you need to back it up with a correct statement not just an opinion.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The only way half of of the genetic makeup of the offspring will be from his or her own drones is if all the drone which mate w/ the queen are from his or her own colonies. This is highly unlikely, under normal circumsatnces, the way I understand the honeybee mating process.

Now, if the queen was grafted from one's own colonies, then half of the genetics will come from his or her own colonies and if any of the drones from those colonies mates w/ that queen then more than half of the genetic makeup will be from the person's own bees, which has potential for hazard.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> .
> 
> Now, if the queen was grafted from one's own colonies, then half of the genetics will come from his or her own colonies and if any of the drones from those colonies mates w/ that queen then more than half of the genetic makeup will be from the person's own bees, which has potential for hazard.


And thats exactly what he is saying on his website and thats why I couldn't understand what Mac was on about


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

From reading the article, he seems to be a fair sized commercial operation. He can legitimately say that half the genetics will be from his own bees given that he has multiple apiaries to flood the area with drones.

DarJones


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I think this is the statement in question - QUOTE "However, the bee farmer does take on some risks when using queen cells rather than caged queens, such as unsuccessful mating or lost queens. Also, half the genetic make-up of the offspring will be from his or her own drones, and if the bee stock needs drastic improvement, caged queens will give quicker results". END QUOTE.

Perhaps his wording could be better, but the point is reasonably obvious. He's talking about when someone buys in some cells from elsewhere and puts them in his own apiary. After mating, half the genetic makeup of the offspring would be from local drones. He probably should have said local drones, which could have been a better more embracing statement, but just inadvertantly said the beekeepers own drones. I'm sure he simply meant local drones in the area.

I'm taking it he's a buddy of yours Frazz? If you point that out to him he may reword the article to clarify. I actually noticed that myself when I read the article a year or two ago. 

No intent to defraud, sell, or whatever, it's just a purely informational article tagged along with other useful stuff on his site.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

No Oldtimer I've never met him although we have 3 of his carricells and wonder how on earth we coped without them :0
It just annoyed me that someone could read the article and think it was misinformation and that he was trying to sell something when thats obviously not the truth.

And just to add that Mac said he's wrong about queens mating from the same hive, It dosn't say that in the article it just says mating with your own drones so if you have alot of bees in an area the chances are you are going to have matings with your own drones which is why breeders saturate their breeding areas with drone hives
if 9 out of 10 drones are from your own stock then thats what you are going to get.

It does my head in when I hear people proclaiming far and wide that this is so or that is so when sometimes I wonder if they even have a clue


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

frazzledfozzle said:


> It does my head in when I hear people proclaiming far and wide that this is so or that is so when sometimes I wonder if they even have a clue


Does it also hurt your head when someone reads an article and sees something that doesn't make sense to bring it to the forum for clarification?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

See your point Ace, however it was also insinuated that the guy was being misleading, and not just that, but doing it to sell product.

However having said that, it's the net, and there's always people love to see a conspiracy theory somewhere.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

frazzledfozzle said:


> No Oldtimer I've never met him although we have 3 of his carricells and wonder how on earth we coped without them


Lucky guy!  I'm still using the old chilly bin and hot water bottle method. 

I've looked at those carricell boxes with envy but they're not cheap. With around 100 nucs I cannot really justify the need. But maybe I'll just be self indulgent and get one some time!


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## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

Yes, all my hives have a new queen every year. Not by re-queening existing hives, but by spliting every hive I have into a nuc. Usually done in March, possibly as late as the first few days of April. I find the old queens and kill them. Some outfits just split up the bees and brood, letting the old queens land wherever they land. Then a day or two later every nuc gets a queen cell. I'm not sure my exta labor costs to kill the queens actually pay off. The guys who don't find the old queens still end up with a very high % of new queens. There are a huge number of commercial beekeeping outfits "re-queened" by this method. The Majority of theses hives are migratory and end up all over the country to produce honey crops and then pollinate. 

I do know of 2 very large beekeepers (10,000 + hives) who requeen twice a year. One is strictly cells the other is a mix of cells and queens. And yes they are into pollination on both the west and east coast. They are able to produce consistant bees year round, and year after year. There are lots of beekeepers willing to experiment and push the envelope. Those who find the right combination get rewarded.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

The 10,000 hive guy who is requeening twice yearly with cells, if he get's 60% success like I did when using that method, will at the end of the year, have requeened most of his hives once, some twice, and some not at all. For him, it's probably just the most cost effective method of achieving a net effect of getting most of his hives requeened each year. Two guys working as a team can do a lot of hives in a day using that method.

The other guy who uses cells and queens, are the queens to follow up cell failures? Or if not, what is his method?


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## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

Hi 

I think the key to the success is getting a higher % of success than 60%. The results are probably more in the 80% range. It is also partly a nuc making operation or getting the hive size uniform by adding and subtracting brood from each hive. The correct location and time of year are certainly important. Years of trial and error is problaly the only way to get there. Some things are just not possible in all parts of the country ( or world ).

The use of queens varies I'm sure. I'm not as familiar with that operation. I think some queens are used for cell failures but I think some get used in nucs. From personal experience I use queens occationally to catch me up if I get behind schedule or run short on brood. If I have a load of bees that gets home late from CA I will use a mated queen in my nucs instead of a cells. It gets me back on schedule. If it looks like I could run a little short on brood I will use some queens to make nucs. Two frame nucs with a caged queen = a three frame nuc with a cell. Not an exact match but you get the idea. 

My main point is that most commercial outfits will combine the requeening and nuc making. We need to keep hives the same size. It's a good oportunity to get things evened out. It's pretty rare to only requeen and not take the time to even out the yard or fill some empty boxes.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> Lucky guy!  I'm still using the old chilly bin and hot water bottle method.
> 
> I've looked at those carricell boxes with envy but they're not cheap. With around 100 nucs I cannot really justify the need. But maybe I'll just be self indulgent and get one some time!


Tell me about these carricell boxes inquiring minds want to know.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

jim lyon said:


> Tell me about these carricell boxes inquiring minds want to know.


http://www.beemaidbeestore.com/product.php?txtCatID=104&txtProdID=194


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Whew, 645.00! It appears it is just a heater not a cooler so it will only maintain temp if ambient is colder than setpoint. Is that always the case?

If you want to make a cheap and dirty one latch onto one of those old mercury thermostats that people are replacing and hook it up to a couple of tail lights. All you have to do is insure it stays fairly level when you have the power connected. I suppose you could go out and buy a new digital one that doesn't have to stay level to work right.


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## cleareyes (Mar 2, 2008)

Acebird said:


> Whew, 645.00! It appears it is just a heater not a cooler so it will only maintain temp if ambient is colder than setpoint. Is that always the case?


There is the 70 cell caricell which I thought was less expensive... I was wrong.
http://www.swienty.com/shop/vare.asp?side=0&vareid=112565

Been using this type of incubator (144 cells) for the last 5 years... Only have possitive things to save about this product. 

We put a wet scott towel on top of the cells when leaving over night or during a hot day and like most incubators... never leave in the sun!

We are being encourage from our provincial officials to change queens every year. We are also encourage to change imported queens we use early in the season.


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## deejaycee (Apr 30, 2008)

For the record, I do know John and Judy Dobson personally. Good operators and very personable, honest folk to deal with. 

As Frazz and OldTimer have identified, at most it's a less than ideal phrasing rather than anything shonky. I'll flick John a note tonight and suggest he rephrase to 'local' drones, just to keep Ace and co happy. 

I do rather lust after their carricells, but alas, they're well out of my reach at my scale.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

DJC The initial outlay seems alot but they last for years and years and are very reliable, no more rogue queens hatching early and ripping down all your other cells, no more lugging a nuc around over rough roads with your cells banging around. plug it into the wall at night and take it with you in the truck the next day... awesome


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

Fusion_power said:


> From reading the article, he seems to be a fair sized commercial operation. He can legitimately say that half the genetics will be from his own bees given that he has multiple apiaries to flood the area with drones.
> 
> DarJones


Well that is his opinion and he is entitled to it.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

frazzledfozzle said:


> It just annoyed me that someone could read the article and think it was misinformation and that he was trying to sell something when thats obviously not the truth.


Well you are entitled to your opinion.



frazzledfozzle said:


> And just to add that Mac said he's wrong about queens mating from the same hive, It dosn't say that in the article


You are right I stand corrected.



frazzledfozzle said:


> It does my head in when I hear people proclaiming far and wide that this is so or that is so when sometimes I wonder if they even have a clue


Dude!! Sorry I got your shorts in a wad.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

frazzledfozzle said:


> If you are going to say someone is misinformed meaning his information is incorrect you need to back it up with a correct statement not just an opinion.


Well it was his opinion so answering with my opinion is a legitimate response. But then that's just my opinion. And the fact is he IS just trying to sell something misinformed or not.


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## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

LOL Mac, Getting my shorts in a wad sounds really uncomfortable,

You are right, I was being a bit too precious and I apologise


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I've often heard that opinions and arses are close companions. You never find one without the other.  

DarJones


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