# different size deep horizontal hives



## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Hi, everyone,

here are pics and specs for the hives I built Lazutin inspired.








This one is 17" x 17" by 22". I originally built it to be a swarm trap. Then my buddy gave me a swarm he caught so I put the swarm in it and decided to leave it there. Curiously, the bees decided to start building comb at the bottom of the frames.








This is the frame design I use. The top bar is 17". The "frame" has a 15" top and bottom and the vertical bars are 17" long. It's clunky I know, but it's the best I can do.








I have two of the dimensions 17" by 33" by 22". These I made last year. One of them I placed a hard partition, because the long boards were warping and "squeezing" the frames. The other has a follower board.








I have two of the dimensions 19.5" by 19.5" by 22". These I made to adapt langstroth nucs I received from Blue Ridge. So each box has five langstroth frames and the rest of the frames are clunky ones I hand made. These frames are 19.5" top bars, with 17" top and bottom and vertical bars are 17" long.

So, you may realize there is a several inch gap between the bottom of the frames and the hive bottom. This was deliberate. 

The entrances are on the east side of the hive, but right next to the south side. the 19.5" hives have a 1.25 inch diameter size entrance, one entrance. The 17" hives have 1 inch diameter size entrance and smaller holes around the entrance, 1/4 inch.

This is all experimental for me. I want to see how the bees do in these different dimension hives.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Yunzow said:


> Hi, everyone,
> .............
> This is all experimental for me. I want to see how the bees do in these different dimension hives.


Cool.
Thanks for sharing, Thomas.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Yunzow said:


> This is the frame design I use. The top bar is 17". The "frame" has a 15" top and bottom and the vertical bars are 17" long. * It's clunky I know, but it's the best I can do.*


Don't 'under-sell' yourself - that looks perfectly fine to me  
Skinny frames were invented by manufacturers looking to minimise manufacturing costs, and thus increase their profits. 



> So, you may realize there is a several inch gap between the bottom of the frames and the hive bottom. *This was deliberate.*


Sure - such a gap shouldn't become a problem with such deep frames - in fact the bees will probably thank you for it.



> This is all experimental for me. I want to see how the bees do in these different dimension hives.


Best reason in the world. Best of luck with 'em.
Thanks for posting ...
LJ


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

thanks for the feedback, Greg.


GregV said:


> Cool.
> Thanks for sharing, Thomas.


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Thanks for the encouragement John



little_john said:


> Don't 'under-sell' yourself - that looks perfectly fine to me
> Skinny frames were invented by manufacturers looking to minimise manufacturing costs, and thus increase their profits.
> 
> 
> ...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Yunzow said:


> thanks for the feedback, Greg.


Btw, over the winter I had a big windfall of full Dadant frames and a big lot of medium Lang frames.
Lots and lots of frames.

Just because I have these, I now want to setup a couple of hives based on 1.5 Dadant frames (these are unlike my current narrow setup - these will be standard Lang/Dadant width).
The frames will be as pictured (6.25" + 11.75" tall - about the same height as my current tall-narrow frames).
This somewhat is incompatible to my current system - but itching to try.
I have this big pile of equipment on hand now and want try out the hybrid hives where I can run frames the long-way or the short-way.

1.5 Dadant Frame (same as Lazutin, but I prefer the shallow frame *above*, not below):







Hybrid setup:
- the brood chamber takes up to ten 1.5 Dadant frames the long way OR up to 14 Ukrainian frames the short way.
- honey supers take up to ten standard Land medium (standard Land med box)


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Hey, Greg,

I was curious what your experience with this was.

thanks-
Thomas



GregV said:


> 1.5 Dadant Frame (same as Lazutin, but I prefer the shallow frame *above*, not below):
> View attachment 48467


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

With that 1.5 piggyback Dadant frame you will find that a lot of your honey crop is in the brood chamber with no means to extract those giant frames. All of these experiments were already done 150 years ago and that is why we today use a shorter frame with supers on top so that we can remove those supers to extract them. A frame that deep is also hard to lift and manage. Do a Search for my threads "Gargantua" many years ago. The pictures are now locked in Photobucket that showed the result. I had to cut down the frames to a manageable size. 



GregV said:


> Btw, over the winter I had a big windfall of full Dadant frames and a big lot of medium Lang frames.
> Lots and lots of frames.
> 
> Just because I have these, I now want to setup a couple of hives based on 1.5 Dadant frames (these are unlike my current narrow setup - these will be standard Lang/Dadant width).
> ...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Yunzow said:


> Hey, Greg,
> 
> I was curious what your experience with this was.
> 
> ...


No personal experience - just reading some materials and some thinking about.

Want to see for myself how it will work in my equipment (for me and for the bees).
I like the depth and I can see it as satisfactory for the bees (~18 inches, just like mine).
The widths is less to like - BUT convenient for equipment exchange.
I must just grow to like the setup after some trials.
Totally see how I can winter on just five 1.5 Dadant frames. 
Want to try and see. 
People in Siberia do it successfully, after all.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

odfrank said:


> With that 1.5 piggyback Dadant frame you will find that a lot of your honey crop is in the brood chamber with *no means to extract those giant frames.* .


Why should I extract them?

This is what the honey super(s) above are for - for extraction.

Anything below - bee food. 
I don't take that.
I may cut into it for any reason (bad comb/old comb/perga harvest/whatever). No extraction.

Added:
- but also notice how I construct my 1.5 Dadants - the shallow frame is bolted ABOVE; see that?
- reason for the "above" placement - undo few screws - extract the shallow frame because that is where the honey will be - bolt it back 
- so, the flexibility is there (unlike in the original Lazutin frames - the shallow was bolted below - poor thinking IMO)
- I don't really mean it to be a routine, but it is an available option (to say harvest from a dead-out)


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

odfrank said:


> Do a Search for my threads "Gargantua" many years ago. The pictures are now locked in Photobucket that showed the result. I had to cut down the frames to a manageable size.


Found them.
Nice pics.
https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...ua-large-cell-gets-CCD-ed&highlight=Gargantua

This is exactly why you do NOT want mono-body large frames.
Because sometimes you do want to extract them (say your bees died).
Well - detach/extract/attach back/done.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is a good set of images for Lazutin frames in field (including for sale)

https://www.google.com/search?q=рам...ip7iAhXhna0KHTXdDO8Q_AUIDigB&biw=1920&bih=938

I just think the shallow frame should be attached above (NOT below).
Somehow the general thinking so far has not realized this (that the honey is usually stored above and best to detach it from above). 
Donno what they are thinking. Blindly copying each other, I guess.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregV said:


> Somehow the general thinking so far has not realized this (that *the honey is usually stored above *and best to detach it from above).


Although that is generally true, it's not been my experience thus far with extra-deep combs in single-story hives - but rather the bees have selected one comb for 'wall-to-wall' brood, another for 'wall-to-wall' pollen - and this is where it gets tricky - another for 'wall-to-wall' honey. Even a 12" deep honey comb - when fully capped - can seriously strain the fingers ! When I first tried to pull a 14" honey comb, I thought it had become glued to the hive bottom it was so heavy.

Hopefully the bees will use your combs as intended Greg, but don't be too surprised if the little darlings have other ideas !  They can sometimes be a law unto themselves ...
'best,
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> .....Hopefully the bees will use your combs as intended Greg, but don't be too surprised if the little darlings have other ideas !  They can sometimes be a law unto themselves ...
> 'best,
> LJ


Will see, LJ.

I am not shy to report back both successes and failures. 
Either way.
What makes it fun.

Unfortunately (OR fortunately?? - don't know which) - with our crazy hybridization here impossible to predict how every single queen (and the bees; and the traits) will turn out.
It has been reported how the dark forest AMM bees like to have the honey stored overheard.
But yet, the dark mountain Caucasions reportedly store the honey into the nest all over.
Mix these up and enjoy the resulting mess.


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

This is an interesting idea. I think it is worth exploring.


GregV said:


> Why should I extract them?
> 
> This is what the honey super(s) above are for - for extraction.
> 
> ...


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Oh well, too late for me re: mono-body large frames. Does it matter whether foundationless or with foundation? Mine are foundationless.



GregV said:


> This is exactly why you do NOT want mono-body large frames.
> Because sometimes you do want to extract them (say your bees died).
> Well - detach/extract/attach back/done.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Yunzow said:


> Oh well, too late for me re: mono-body large frames. Does it matter whether foundationless or with foundation? Mine are foundationless.


Well, you do want some mid-ribs to support the combs (two is a good #).
Handy when pasting some code into them.








Or do wires (but I dislike wires anymore - hard to attach combs into those, unlike the horizontal planks).

For 1.5 Dadants, I want to add a vertical mid-rib (like on the modified picture).


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Well - talking of a resulting mess (different kind of mess) - here's an interesting (perhaps ?) finding ...

As you may recall, I've been trialling 14" deep combs, and although it was a success, 'twas not enough of a success to warrant having a unique frame depth in the apiary - so I've been progressively reducing them to 12" (which is a standard depth over here), and now intend to trial double-deep frames (16.5") - which are already made - in their place.

Yesterday found me reducing the last two of these 14" frames - but - there was capped honey all the way down to the bottom of the combs, and the 2" I needed to slice-off caused honey to drip all over the workbench - what a mess !

So I resorted to using kitchen towels to mop-up the worse of it and to hold the pieces of sliced-off comb. These were placed in the topmost box of the new stack - which now consists of a 12" brood box with two 8.5" 5-frame nuc boxes above - to be picked over. I fully expected to find shredded paper towels in front of the hive the next morning, but this wasn't to be.

Instead, what I found was that shredded paper towels had been dumped at the bottom of the hive, and so had passed through the Open Mesh Floor. Here's a pic (not very clear): 



And here's what it looks like after being pulled out:



So - this suggests that *hive cleaning is a two-stage process*: bees on the combs just chuck whatever offends them down towards the hive bottom, where it's presumably picked-up by other bees and then carried out of the hive entrance. Only in this case, the presence of a mesh floor saved them the trouble. 
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> ,,,,,,,,,So - this suggests that *hive cleaning is a two-stage process*: bees on the combs just chuck whatever offends them down towards the hive bottom, where it's presumably picked-up by other bees and then carried out of the hive entrance. Only in this case, the presence of a mesh floor saved them the trouble.
> LJ


Coincidentally, I am taking a day off from the office so I can attend to my bees (lots to do).
So I will go into that hive with the "trash on the floor" to work out the splitting situation.

I mean to look inside and document IF the "trash on the floor" is still there or not (see "eco-floor" topic).
No idea what I will find.
If I suspect correctly, that trash will still be there because I suspect bees don't care of it (due to the hive/frame design).
This has been 1+ month since I gave them the hive with the shavings stuffed into the walls - more than enough time for a complete house cleaning job.
If the floor is clean - I am in the wrong. Hehe.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> So - this suggests that *hive cleaning is a two-stage process*: bees on the combs just chuck whatever offends them down towards the hive bottom, *where it's presumably picked-up by other bees *and then carried out of the hive entrance. Only in this case, the presence of a mesh floor saved them the trouble.
> LJ


OR, LJ, the trash could have stayed right there - on the floor - for some veeeeery long time.
That may very well be the deep hive/cavity attribute and actually maybe just the norm.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Ok - staying a little more on topic - FWIW - here's my effort at producing double-deep frames - these were/are intended to be used as standing frames in something approaching an A-Z hive:



And with a starter comb, and a top-bar added so that they can be drawn out within a stack of two standard deep boxes:

 

I suppose that if a person was interested in harvesting honey, then the topmost section could be cut away for crushing and straining, and then re-drawn without affecting the sections of comb lower down ? Dunno - honey's not on my radar.
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> ........I suppose that if a person was interested in harvesting honey, then the topmost section could be cut away for crushing and straining, and then re-drawn without affecting the sections of comb lower down ? Dunno - honey's not on my radar.
> LJ


Should work.
I do just about that.

But also I started recognizing now that single deep frame is best for end-of-season harvest.
Mid-season/early-season - not so much.
Hence started this hybrid-hive project - super-deep brood chamber/conventional super(s) on the top.
Reportedly (written/video), queens never even come out of the super-deep chambers (they like them so much) - no need for any QAs when supering.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GregV said:


> For 1.5 Dadants, I want to add a vertical mid-rib (like on the modified picture).
> View attachment 48487


I forgot another reason I chose to have the shallow frame above (acting as a "top-bar") and the deep Dadant attached below.

I want to be able to turn the deep Dadant partition 90 degrees --> screw a top bar to it --> drop into my narrow-deep hive (and do the opposite moves too as needed).

This is how I am compatible between the long-deep frame setups and short-deep frame setups.
The "ear-less" Dadant frame is the compatible media part moving between the two.
So I want the deep Dadants ear-less - again - hanging at the bottom.

Like so:


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Very interesting!



GregV said:


> Well, you do want some mid-ribs to support the combs (two is a good #).
> Handy when pasting some code into them.
> View attachment 48485
> 
> ...


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

Hi, John,

I was curious why you said honey wasn't on your radar?


little_john said:


> I suppose that if a person was interested in harvesting honey, then the topmost section could be cut away for crushing and straining, and then re-drawn without affecting the sections of comb lower down ? Dunno - honey's not on my radar.
> LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Yunzow said:


> Hi, John,
> 
> I was curious why you said honey wasn't on your radar?


LJ is much into queen-raising/equipment tinkering "business" (don't know much of a real business is really going on; more of a retirement hobby).
Anyway, LJ will be in here in person, UK morning time.
Just covering for him for the time; haha...

I, on the other hand, need some real honey to stuff into those peanut butter & honey sucking teenagers.
Partly why I rather not be waiting until late fall for the fresh crop (the usual long hive specialty).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Matt's Layens channel just published a timely video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSgo-MzMGBw


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregV said:


> LJ is much into queen-raising/equipment tinkering "business" (don't know much of a real business is really going on; more of a retirement hobby).
> Anyway, LJ will be in here in person, UK morning time.
> Just covering for him for the time; haha...


Greg is spot-on (thanks Greg  ) - beekeeping for me is exactly that: a retirement hobby, "a reason for getting out of bed in the morning" ...

Re: the 'non-honey' - I don't have much choice in that. The land around where I currently live is reclaimed marsh-land, situated at sea-level of course (and thus for drainage needs to be actively pumped from time to time), and has been rated Grade I - the most productive in the country. Over many generations it's gradually become 'agri-industrialised' with brassicas (cabbages, cauliflowers, sprouts etc) being the principle crops, as well as sugar beet, potatoes, and the occasional few fields of wheat. Thus there's precious little nectar to be had from the fields around here, only token amounts from the irrigation ditches between fields. There are a couple of small villages 'within range' with gardens and amenity trees - but it's a helluva long way to fly for a feed.

(Just 10 miles down the road I often see a few hundred acres or so of OSR (Oil Seed Rape/ Canola) and I keep thinking about how I could best access that - but it makes honey with a horrible taste, imo)

However, on a positive note - this scenario means that there are no other known beekeepers in the immediate area, so in practice it's effectively semi-isolated, with Varroa being very controllable, and queen-rearing simplified - so it isn't all 'doom and gloom' - but - no honey worth speaking of. Certainly not enough to make it worthwhile harvesting and selling. So my girls keep all they make, and even this needs to be topped-up with sugar-syrup before each winter. Without this supplementary feeding I would only be able to keep a handful of colonies. Fortunately, pollen is in ample supply and available all season long - where DO they get it from (?) - so as long as I continue to supply sugar, the circus here can continue to function ... 
'best
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> .... Thus there's precious little nectar to be had from the fields around here......LJ


That's a bummer, LJ.
I am fortunate to live right next to several large nature preserves (public and private) - lots and lots of "weeds" through the season.
Lots of early blooming trees too - but generally terrible spring negates the early flow potential.

So, yes, I am pretty bullish about harvesting lots of honey for our use - but need properly setup hives for it.
One thing I noticed for sure now - in the largest long hives (16 frames and up), the bees don't really want store nectar into the supers.
So, either need a shorter hive (10-12 Dadant frames is good) or need to keep them tight using the follower boards and thus force them up.
This will be needed for the July honey producing hives in my area (or wait until the fall/winter).

Thus, the biggest hives I got (16 frames and up; single tier) are my resource and fall/winter honey hives.
The smaller and lighter hives (10-12 Dadant frames; N-tier) are the summer honey hives.
Something like this should work.


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## Yunzow (Mar 16, 2017)

I'm going with the off topic.
As for nectar sources, I'm in a strange spot, but I suspect it is pretty good. I live in a less affluent suburb of Atlanta, just happen to have a random six acres of woods in my subdivision. Lots of trees around in general, we like our trees in the Georgia, mostly pine though, but we like our maple trees, too. And there is a fair amount of "opportunistic" trees like tulip poplar. We have just barely enough elevation to have some sourwood, but not as much as the actual mountains.

In the late summer and fall, I have a hypothesis that the clear cutting around the power lines actually helps out with late nectar sources. The power company will move everything down once a year and then it gets "overgrown" with wildflowers and such.



little_john said:


> Greg is spot-on (thanks Greg  ) - beekeeping for me is exactly that: a retirement hobby, "a reason for getting out of bed in the morning" ...
> 
> Re: the 'non-honey' - I don't have much choice in that. The land around where I currently live is reclaimed marsh-land, situated at sea-level of course (and thus for drainage needs to be actively pumped from time to time), and has been rated Grade I - the most productive in the country. Over many generations it's gradually become 'agri-industrialised' with brassicas (cabbages, cauliflowers, sprouts etc) being the principle crops, as well as sugar beet, potatoes, and the occasional few fields of wheat. Thus there's precious little nectar to be had from the fields around here, only token amounts from the irrigation ditches between fields. There are a couple of small villages 'within range' with gardens and amenity trees - but it's a helluva long way to fly for a feed.
> 
> ...


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Yunzow said:


> ..... the clear cutting around the power lines actually helps out with late nectar sources. The power company will move everything down once a year and then it gets "overgrown" with wildflowers and such.


+1
Very beneficial.
I am happy about finally getting a couple of out-yards close enough to the high voltage power lines - great bee pastures.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Ok - staying a little more on topic - FWIW - here's my effort at producing double-deep frames - *these were/are intended to be used as standing frames *........
> 
> LJ


Here is a fresh vid from a funny guy (all his honey super frames are just standing, never hanging).
Here is harvesting his *50mm wide free-standing frames*.
He is also stacking those free-standing frames 3-4 tiers high - a crazy guy, but I am scratching my head and thinking "why not" (also started using just free-standing frames in my horizontals for honey; I just stick in Lang frames - they are standing there; need to take a photo).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvD5EeI_Ktg


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Hi Greg - I love some of these videos you dig up, where guys are just 'tearing-up the rule-book' ... 

I don't see any particular problem in using standing frames in a single-story hive - but "how to stack frames" has always had me puzzled. The only possible solutions being those of the A-Z system (2 or 3 supporting steel rods) or the 'Mother-of-God' approach from the Ukraine, where 3 frames are strapped together for stability:



But - your man now shows us another possibility ... 
'best
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Hi Greg - I love some of these videos you dig up, *where guys are just 'tearing-up the rule-book'* ...
> 
> ......But - your man now shows us another possibility ...
> 'best
> LJ


Watch this (below).
Go to 6:00 and enjoy on forward - this is how about 100 kilos of honey look like - just stacked up.
This guy does not give a slightest poop about the so-called conventions.

People are going panicky about a millimeter to the right, so to speak.... 
Well, watch this guy and observe that "an extra millimeter to the right" is not the end of the world in the slightest.
A nut job (and is doing very well for himself - selling tons of bees and honey; raising queens for sale - people are begging for his queens).

I am learning from beeks like him to really just play by the ear and by my own senses and observations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHbsBuK3H9I

Before 6:00 he is demonstrating his queen-raising operation (to those interested, not really my thing).


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

little_john said:


> Ok - staying a little more on topic - FWIW - here's my effort at producing double-deep frames - these were/are intended to be used as standing frames in something approaching an A-Z hive:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 How do you get 'bee space' between these frames, and what is the width of the wood used? They look like something I could build, the Langstroth type with their fiddly ends are beyond my abilities.

I am new to beekeeping, and getting my first nucs this spring. I have built two layens style hives (extra deep) with standard layens frames in one, the other I have not filled yet. After watching some of the wonderful Russian videos that GregV posts I would like to try frames that are not tight together at the top but covered with a cloth. 

I am in a very cold northern province so I am interested in frames that are deeper than normal and now I am a little concerned that my standard layens might not be deep enough for our cold weather.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> How do you get 'bee space' between these frames, and what is the width of the wood used? They look like something I could build, the Langstroth type with their fiddly ends are beyond my abilities.
> 
> I am new to beekeeping, and getting my first nucs this spring. I have built two layens style hives (extra deep) with standard layens frames in one, the other I have not filled yet. After watching some of the wonderful Russian videos that GregV posts I would like to try frames that are not tight together at the top but covered with a cloth.
> 
> I am in a very cold northern province so I am interested in frames that are deeper than normal and now I am a little concerned that my standard layens might not be deep enough for our cold weather.


You can do Hoffman style frames, of course (which is a hassle and waste of material if doing custom frames - am not doing that again).
Alternatively, you can just staple spacers to the frames (I'd prefer this).
You can use screws - LJ does that.

You can also space frames by upholstery nails for example.
Need to align them so they face each other; such nail does 1/8 inch spacing; two nails aligned will do 1/4 inch spacing - makes for standard narrow 1 1/4 spacing if using 1 inch wood (convenient).
I have done this and found the process to be tedious - must align the upholstery nails precisely to get the 1/4 inch spacing.
But once done - this works fine; but then again ALL of your frames must be of this standard to generally work (may or may not be an issue).
https://www.google.com/search?q=uph...KHVShAfoQ9QEwBnoECAoQGw#imgrc=_HRpF7S7-r3aZM:

As long you manage your bees for sufficient honey domes in the frame - should be fine.
You will achieve this by 1)having bottom entrances over summer months (which pulls bees down and the honey up) and 2)NOT excessively insulating from the top (which pulls bees up too fast too early).
Pictured is a sufficient honey dome.








Indeed, pass-through top bars make it trivial for emergency feeding from the top (which is your only option in freezing cold) - dry sugar/syrup/thick honey.
The non-passable top bars are not good in cold climate just for the emergency feeding alone (and more).


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Hi - yes, as Greg said (he knows my modus operandi) - I use screws. 25mm x 3mm (or 1" by 1/8" in the old money).

The advantages for me of screws is that they provide adjustable spacing, and have very little contact area - so bees are almost exempt from being crushed when closing-up frames.
I can't show the frames pictured earlier as they're now in use - but I'm only using one of those division boards right now, so have photographed the other instead:










Because of the length involved, I've fitted screws at both top and bottom.

I can show you some more use of screws, but only on a smaller frame:










Just a bit of a difference ... 


So - here's a view down onto the top bar of those smaller 'Gallup' frames:










... and here's what a box-full looks like:










The first top bar (without the black mark) is a dummy frame - I use those quite a lot.

When using screws like this, the only necessity is to ensure that the first frame is parallel to the box end wall - that's easy enough to do using the Mk.I eyeball - from then on, just shove the frames up against each other in the normal way. 

Anything else ? - Oh yes, you asked about wood sizes on those extra-deep frames.

The sides are 25mm x 15mm, and the top and bottom bars are 25mm x 25mm. The reason I made such a heavy-duty bottom bar is in case I install these as standing frames onto (probably) a pair of steel rods, 'cause there'll be a LOT of weight in those frames, and I don't want the bottom bar to bend. 
'best
LJ


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Yes!!!!, that makes perfect sense, I was considering a spacer but when Greg talked about alignment I realized that getting each screw head to line up with the other could be troublesome. Putting them as you do makes perfect sense.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Thank you GregV, I love those Russian beekeeping videos you post, they show a side of beekeeping that is appealing. Reading for and entire year about all the things you 'should' do, as well as a litany of things 'not' to do can be very daunting to a new beekeeper. When you get into the information on emergency feeding, what to feed, when to feed, swarm control, bee space, cross comb, foundation or not, treatments, etc. it almost froze me into not doing bees at all.

I never considered that too much insulation overhead can be a problem. 

I have made 40 layens top touching frames, can I use them in the honey stores, and use the new open bars in the brood area so I can put feed over them in the winter? Or is it too hard to keep the bees to certain frames. 

Maybe I should notch the original frames some how?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> Thank you GregV, I love those Russian beekeeping videos you post, they show a side of beekeeping that is appealing. Reading for and entire year about all the things you 'should' do, as well as a litany of things 'not' to do can be very daunting to a new beekeeper. When you get into the information on emergency feeding, what to feed, when to feed, swarm control, bee space, cross comb, foundation or not, treatments, etc. it almost froze me into not doing bees at all.
> 
> I never considered that too much insulation overhead can be a problem.
> 
> ...


I too made my initial batch of the modified Layens - touching (due to the influence by Leo Sharashkin).
What a pain it caused later on.
Most importantly I would argue against the idea of "never feeding your bees" - just simply *"never say never"* because you never know.

I would recommend notching your already made frames to allow the vertical pass-through ability.
Absolutely, keep using your already made frames - just consider modifying them.
The vertical pass-through is required for proper cold-season feeding, allows optional vertical supering, and makes quick visual inspections possible from the above.
Practice shows that it is hard to separate frames into "brooding area" frames and "honey area" frames.
Just assume any frame will be used anywhere indiscriminately and at any time.

Go here (jump to 2:00 and observe how Matt has made the "path-through" notches to his frames using router - Matt had to go back and retro-modify his Layens frames too).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKdkIP-kgf0

In fact, scan through the entire channel "Matt's beekeeping" and learn from him.
Too bad, the traffic on the channel was low and Matt stopped posting his vids.
I highly recommend his materials for self-learning.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCJaKBgUnkN_EbuaWtyZkTA


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> Yes!!!!, that makes perfect sense, I was considering a spacer but when Greg talked about alignment I realized that getting each screw head to line up with the other could be troublesome. Putting them as you do makes perfect sense.


My recommended spacers are just wooden pieces stapled to the side bars.
This is very similar to Hoffman frame style, except made from wood scraps (no fidgeting with the Hoffman-style side bar cutting) - absolutely unnecessary.
With the stapled spacers you are not concerned with perfect alignment - you will get it with no special efforts.

Of course, I cheat every time I can get away with it, being lazy, cheap, and short on time.
I reuse Lang equipment and take advantage of what is there for taking - like the built-in spacing.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

ursa_minor said:


> Yes!!!!, that makes perfect sense, I was considering a spacer but when Greg talked about alignment I realized that getting each screw head to line up with the other could be troublesome. Putting them as you do makes perfect sense.


Like most people I considered screw head-to-head contact, but ruled it out as being too hard to accomplish.

There is one caveat in the use of an adjustable screw approach, and that is the top bar widths MUST be identical (well, within say +/- 1.0 mm) - because the frame spacing is made-up of both the exposed screw length AND the top bar width. So - if you had, say, a 20mm wide top bar, next to a 25mm wide top bar, and took up the difference using different screw lengths, then one of those top bars is going to be angled somewhat across the box. So - it's necessary to keep top bar widths the same - or very nearly so.

Position of the screws ? They need to outside of the comb field, else combs risk getting 'scraped' when withdrawing the frames, unless you're VERY careful. When making frames which are to co-exist with existing Hoffman-spaced frames, I insert the screws just outside of the side bars.
'best,
LJ


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Thank you both, you have saved me a lot of frustration that I would have had if I did not set up a system to feed the bees properly. I am glad I asked the question before my bees arrived, they come in a week or two.

I have already set up the router to modify my frames and I am going to make my new ones with the open spacing. 

Before I use either the screws or the wood spacers I will double check that the top bars are all the same width.


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