# Electromagnetic theory for colony collapse



## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

I don't know if you guys have seen this already, but someone just sent me this link to a theory about colony collapse disorder that blames electromagnetic interference:

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sep..._die_are_electromagnetic_signals_to_blame.htm

It sounds plausible - what do you think?


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## JLD (Jan 27, 2005)

Sounds like a bunch of bull. ELF signals have been around for years and years. Why are they a problem now?


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Why now? Why not last year, or the year before? And, why are some yards affected while other yards just short distances away are not? Why wouldn't electromagnetic interference affect other insects, too?

I'll confess that I get a sort of "conspiracy theory" vibe when reading the link, and I don't buy into most "conspiracy theories."

I'll also confess that Bjorn's theory (http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200970) sounds plausible to me.


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## Hillside (Jul 12, 2004)

Hmmm. This must have to do with those new, cheap hive tools. Remember when your hive tool was high quality and strong. No colony collapse. Now with these cheap, easily bent hive tools that are on the market, we have sudden bee disappearance.

I expect the cheap iron used in making these new hive tools collects electromagnetic energy, then, when you are separating hive bodies, the tool points directly at the cluster, concentrating the electromagnetic energy and "infecting" the bees. 

Get rid of that new hive tool. Go to an antique shop and buy an old one at a ridiculous price. 

Your bees will thank you.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Buckbee, are you promoting something in direct conflict with your all encompassing idea of a worldwide conspiracy of GM? 

Hey, why not...I've heard just about everything else......

My alternative theory is radiation left behind by those aliens from a million light years away, coming here with nothing better to do than make crop circle is much desired spots as the fields of England. If these crops were GM plants, mixed with ELF, and perhaps some contaminated radiation crop circles thrown in.......Just having fun. But that would be a good episode for the "X" files. I think they did do a ELF thing with human heads exploding. And the crop circle was highlighted, as well as a remote industrial complex in the mid-west that had bees as some kind of vector agent for distributing stuff around the world. If you think about it, if you combined all three of these X-files episodes....that would be something.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

_Personally I line the covers with tin foil to protect the girls antennas'_


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## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

Sundance said:


> Personally I line the covers with tin foil to protect the girls antennas'


What? I see we are too cheap to provide individual little hats. 

I dunno. I'm not discounting the EMF theory. Stranger things have happened and not been public knowledge.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

This is NOT something that anyone has seriously considered,
as GWEN was built in the 1980s, and there is no reason to
suspect that any effects on bees would show up after so
many years of there being no such symptoms.

I'm sure there are many people with agendas of their own
who would like to grab onto the bee die-offs and twist 
the situation into some sort of "proof" that their theory
is true.

ELF (extremely low frequency) requires very long antennas
to pick up the transmissions, as wavelength gets longer as
frequency gets lower (f = 1/w). No way anything as short
as a bee is going to act as an antenna for frequencies in
that range.

Microwaves, yet another thing cited as a dangerous method for
communication with side-effects on humans, is inherently a
line-of-site communications scheme, so the small dishes one
sees atop high towers and buildings are used to keep the
terrain or other buildings from "blocking the view". They are
waaay up high, well above people, the ridgelines, and the 
tallest buildings. Microwaves don't use antennas at all, they 
use "waveguides", items that can look like satellite dishes, 
horns of plenty, and even large "seashells". Kind of hard to 
see how this might be the cause of the problem(s) at hand 
for bees, as high-power microwave has ALSO been around for 
decades.

So, we are going to distribute the standard-issue tinfoil fez to
all those who are participating in this thread. As you can see,
it is very fashionable, and easy to wear under a bee veil.










Wear it with *pride*!


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Guys - I am not promoting this - I just thought that it was an interesting idea that people with open minds ought to at least consider. 

I don't know - maybe it is lunatic fringe - but just maybe mobile phone masts and all the other proliferators of electromagnetic frequencies do have some effect on us, on other life forms - maybe even bees - but until you drop this knee-jerk "ohmigod what a load of conspiratorial nonsense" position that some of you take without thinking, we are never going to learn anything, are we?


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

*Cmon, people, let's be reasonable.....*

...such farfetched theories!

I think it has something to do with the deisel fumes of the trucks hauling the bees, combined with the increased ethanol being burned by autos on our hiways. More corn for the ethanol is being genetically modified, duh! This would work well within the timeframe, too. 
Oh, and Jim, can I get one of those hats in pink please?
Sheri


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## nsmith1957 (Sep 7, 2006)

buckbee said:


> Guys - I am not promoting this - I just thought that it was an interesting idea that people with open minds ought to at least consider.


Don't know if ELF has anything to do with the problem or not. But Buckbee, don't take it personally, many closed minded folks used to think Area 51 was just a figment of some over active imaginations.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Jim, I want my tin foil fez!


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## tarheit (Mar 26, 2003)

Maybe not electromagnetic waves causing the problem, but the earth's magnetic field itself. Perhaps the bees can't orient property with the earths unstable and weakening magnetic field. I've talked to a couple of people that have observed many bees taking cleansing flights seem not to be returning to the hive.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/09/0909_040909_earthmagfield.html

Of course it's all Al Gore's fault for inventing global warming....

-Tim


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

A good example of non-thinking, knee-jerk reaction. Thank you.

(sorry Tim, that wasn't aimed at you - posts seem to appear in an odd order for some reason...)


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## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

I remember hearing about this (Earth reversing its magnetic field). Why couldn't it be a reason? It's as plausible as most.

Could also be that the bees are just sick and tired of humans and are getting out of Dodge.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

*Seriously though,*

Sorry Buckbee
We're just having a little fun, don't take it personally. I think we are all just ready for the weekend a little early, ha.
Until we know what IS causing CCD, one theory is (almost ) as good as another.
Sheri


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> I remember hearing about this (Earth reversing its magnetic field). 
> Why couldn't it be a reason? It's as plausible as most.

If the Earth was to reverse its magnetic field again (which has
happened several times, as shown in the geological record)
I think that we would have noticed. For one thing, the yells
of "WTF?" from every Boy Scout on the planet would have alerted
us to the problem.


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## nsmith1957 (Sep 7, 2006)

Hobie said:


> I remember hearing about this (Earth reversing its magnetic field). Why couldn't it be a reason? It's as plausible as most.


I did a little research on the net, It would appear (at this time) that the bees don't use earth's magnetic lines to navigate by. They appear to use sun position and visual landmarks to navigate by.

[Edit] The poles have not revearsed lately. Some scientists say it is moving away for the normal position. Some even say at an accelerated rate.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Having fun or not, when you ask "What do you all think?", you should really be open to hear all the answers. Good, bad or indifferent. To state that someone's opinion is "kneejerk" or otherwise, is as close minded as they come. So as I see it, one is calling another close minded, while not accepting anothers point of view, and thus being close minded themselves, thus being called out by another close minded type, and this party will surely be further called out as close minded by another, if not the original poster, or at least another poster who used the term "close minded". Of course, we could ask what others think about what "close minded" is, or as in Clinton's case, we would need to define what "is' is, but regardless, after all reply, we could all claim everyone else is closeminded, while be called close minded, and claiming ourselves un-close minded, while knowing those who called another close minded are actually close minded also.

And some say I'm closed minded...its as open and clear as they come. Just don't ask me to explain anything I previously stated.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> I did a little research on the net, It would appear (at this time) that
> the bees don't use earth's magnetic lines to navigate by. They appear to
> use sun position and visual landmarks to navigate by.


Well, there has been speculation for quite some time, and bees clearly 
do have some detectable iron in their trophocytes.

See http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/126/1/375.pdf

But one can't get the bees to show that they use any sort of 
magnetic-based navigation at all.

See http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/86/1/1.pdf

Also, be aware that the statements made in the first paper above 
about bees building combs in alignment with magnetic fields or 
compass points has been debunked multiple times, as the bees 
build their comb in the direction of whatever attachment "bar" is 
provided, and if a solid sheet is provided, they will build comb 
pretty much "at random".

Ian Rumsey did a series of articles in the Apis-UK newsletter documenting
a test he did, which produced the usual of apparently encouraging
easy-to-misinterpret results mixed with utterly random acts proving that
the bees pay little or no attention to the earth's magnetic field:

http://www.beedata.com/apis-uk/newsletters05/apis-uk0905.htm
(The whole series starts several issues before this one.)


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

BjornBee - have you been on the moonshine again?


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Again? Does not one have to be off, to be back on again?


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

Bjorn,

Are you gonna check your PM's one day. LOL!


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

*When its all said and done we will find that*

we know a lot less than we think we do!

There is no way that we can even conceive of what bees perceive. The genomes studies show that they have a lot more smell receptors than fruit flies.

And my guess is that fruit flies smell a lot better than we do.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/10/061025181706.htm

Honey bees (Apis millifera) have 170 odorant receptors, the researchers found, compared with 62 in fruit flies (Drosophila melanogaster) and 79 in mosquitoes (Anopheles gramblae). 

The enhanced number of odorant receptors underlies the honey bee's remarkable olfactory abilities, including perception of pheromones, kin recognition signals, and social communication within the hive. 

Honey bees also use odor recognition for finding food. "Foraging worker bees might encounter a bewildering number of flowers to choose from, but they can discriminate between them using subtle olfactory cues," Robertson said. "A large number of odorant receptors allows the bees to find food and communicate its location to other bees." 

So I am thinking that smell interference is more likely to be involved in CCD than electromagnetic forces.

But then again would we even know what a genome for electromagnetic force recognition would look like?


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

For you yuleluder, I will do this!


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## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

Jim Fischer said:


> ...as the bees build their comb in the direction of whatever attachment "bar" is
> provided, and if a solid sheet is provided, they will build comb pretty much "at random"...


When I was investigating going foundationless, someone told me that sometimes the bees will build comb off the line of the bars, and you needed to rotate the entire hive to align it with the way they want to build. I find that fascinating.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> When I was investigating going foundationless, someone told me 
> that sometimes the bees will build comb off the line of the bars, 
> and you needed to rotate the entire hive to align it with the way 
> they want to build.

That's the problem with a solid surface made of "top bars", 
presenting about the same surface as a hardwood floor to
the bees (a hardwood ceiling?).

If one bevels the top bars so that they look like this when
viewed "end on":

==========
\========/
.\=======/
..\======/
....=====

The bees will notice the "gaps" and pay attention to the bars.


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## IndianaHoney (Jun 5, 2006)

Well, my theory is President Bush is responsible....He labeled all the bees as terrorists....

In reality, I think it might be some kind of genetic disorder, a new pest, or something in one of the many treatments beekeepers use. I'm just not convienced that this is viral, or anything like that. The other possiblities that I have considered is the genetic engineering of crops. Every so many years some crops are rotated with a new strain in order to keep molds, and other parisites down. CCD has happened before, so there may be a strain of one of these crops that produces toxic pollen.


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

They had a story on 60 minutes or Dateline several years ago about the researcher that came out with the claim that EMF was bad. And he had been exposed for dilatability omitting some of his data so millions perhaps billions of dollars could be spent to prove or disprove EMF was killing everything. So I ain’t buying that CCD may be caused by EMF. Besides there wasn’t much EMF back in 1896 when the first reports of a mysterious disease that was killing honeybees and has gone by other names like disappearing, dwindling, May disease just to name a few. Perhaps they are looking for some research money.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> about the researcher that came out with the claim that EMF was bad

The actual origin of all this hooey was a PhD thesis in Scandanavia
about high-tension (high-voltage) power lines. Sadly, it was misreported
as being some sort of definitive study, when it was anything but.

To date, there has been no verification that anything less than full-blown
high power microwaves, beamed from short distances have any effect on
anyone.

There was a case where a very powerful ELF (Extreme Low Frequency)
antenna on Cape Cod had a direct impact on incidents of random violence
of both the domestic and barroom brawl varieties, but this was again, very
high power, and over very short distances. The Navy moved the antenna
and the broadcast facility to a less populated area, as the signal was
for "worldwide" communication with subs, so it didn't matter where it was.


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## Ribster (Nov 3, 2004)

This text is beyond simply suspicous. The author clearly reveals his political agenda and attempts to appear as an authority when he obviously isn't one.

Yes blasting animals with intense bursts of radiation probably has an adverse effect on their health. Has the last year seen a marked increase in intense bursts of radiation outdoors?

He seems to be purposefully attempting to deceive us when towards the end he states a pile of disjointed quotes. Are we supposed to assume that one line has something to do with the next??? Lets see:

He seems to suggest that stochastic resonance within the individual honeybee is amplifying the magnetic flux of the original electromagnetic(E/M) wave that is interacting with the bee's body. So that stochastic resonance makes our bees produce electromagnetic radiation strong enough to produce 1nT of flux at the bee's head simply because they were exposed to 250 Hz E/M waves? Additionally this perception of 1 nT is supposed to disrupt the bee's perception of the earth's magnetic field (around 30 micro tesla at its weaker points, 30 micro tesla being 3000 times stronger). 

WOW. I think he's right.http://208.69.121.208/forums/images/icons/icon13.gif
Thumbs down


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## rainesridgefarm (Sep 4, 2001)

I prefer to put little pyramids on my hives to collect the celestial energy to make them stronger. good thoughts on the fumes from trucks. I just found out there is a company in the midwest that blends waste chemicals into fuels for public sale to get rid of it. They go into bankrupt or closed businesses and do a epa cleanup. They ship it to the plant in East Chicago, Detroit or somewhere in N.C. to blend it. this is how they dispose of it legaly.


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## Eli I (Sep 24, 2011)

http://www.laleva.org/eng/2007/04/protecting_bees_from_mobile_phone_radiation-print.html

If you have a beehive and would like to shield it from electromagnetic radiation, simply wrap it with foil.

For added protection stake a wire into the ground and connect it to your foil lining. This makes a "Faraday cage."

A large galvanized or stainless steel nail or screw hammered into the ground would do the trick. Other metals would do fine but might rust sooner. Copper and iron tend to corrode. You'd have to replace them eventually if they do.

Instead of foil, you could use a fine-mesh metal screen or some sheet metal if you so choose. I just say foil because you 'prolly already have some in your house.

Make sure it's secured so the wind doesn't blow it off, say with some weatherproof caulking or other weatherproof glue.

I would 'prolly look for something like 100% Silicone. If it says "safe for food contact" or it's made for sealing aquariums, that's cool. I'd think it to have less of the industrial solvents in there that might interfere with a bee.

If you use a metal that is prone to rust, be sure to paint it where it's exposed, but make sure the metal on the lid can touch the side without any paint in the way. Leave that bare so it makes contact.

Be sure to leave enough space for the bees to get in and out, and be certain to leave enough space for ventilation. Air is good. We don't want to suffocate them in there. They can regulate the temperature if you let them.

Bees can always fill in gaps if they need to, but they can't make the air gaps any bigger if you don't make 'em big enough to begin with. This is especially true in the wintertime, as moisture can freeze in there.

The idea of the foil wrap is that the electromagnetic radiation will stay outside of your box, especially if you connect this to the ground. Look up "Faraday cage" on Google or Wikipedia.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Thanx! I'm gonna jump right on it. :ws:


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Be sure to wear a WW2 steel helmet to protect yourself as well... oh yeah, and tinfoil underpants.


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## Eli I (Sep 24, 2011)

The reason you use a ground wire is so that all the radiation stays on the outside. It creates an empty space, free from radiation, inside. This is why it's called a "Faraday shield," for it shields you from outside energy.

You see, in this one, a group of people stand under a wire cage and lightning has no effect on them - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVIyjZ7ciJE

The electricity passes straight to the ground, shielding everyone inside. This is why you have a ground wire on the outlets in your home. It protects you from being zapped.


As I understand, a third of the bees die off each winter:
http://www.ted.com/talks/dennis_vanengelsdorp_a_plea_for_bees.html

Maybe you haven't seen it happen yet because you've been blessed with good fortune so far. However, more electromagnetic radiation is being produced everyday, and it has a cumulative effect.

I'm not saying wrap all your boxes in one go. Try a few boxes. See if those bees do any better than the other bees. When you see the benefit, do a few more more. The point is you are looking out for your bees, and you'll prosper from it.

You might be surprised at how many common sources there are that contribute extra radiation -
http://tinyurl.com/3o9w4vx


links on the topic of how bees are affected:


http://www.scribd.com/doc/50113089/28/Effect-on-Honey-Bees


http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/are-mobile-phones-wiping-out-our-bees-444768.html


http://www.laleva.org/eng/2007/04/protecting_bees_from_mobile_phone_radiation-print.html


http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sep..._die_are_electromagnetic_signals_to_blame.htm


http://cprnews.com/articles/BeeColonies/CPR-News--Bee-colonies-affected-by-EMF.html


http://www.rense.com/general78/cdan.htm


http://www.awarenessmag.com/sepoct07/so07_whats_all_buzz.htm


http://www.wik-emf.org/fileadmin/Sonstige-Dokumente/EMF-Brief-Extracts/Extract-WIK-EMF-Brief10.pdf


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You are trying to solve a problem I don't have...


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Can't I just make a hardware cloth cage outside all my hives and anchor with metal tent stakes to ground the energy? Would do 2 things, block the robbers and protect for em. Actually, I could just do my 1/6th acre lot, load it with wildflowers and clover.....

OK, I'm not serious. I know that EM radiation is everywhere, heck it comes from the sun and is a factor in what makes the universe work, I'm fairly sure. Still it is a wild thread, and I really should get off the computer and do some work.....


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Here's an experiment for you all to try:

1. Take your cellphone, check that it has a signal, and wrap it in tinfoil.
2. Connect it to an earth wire, if you like.
3. Call your phone from another phone.

If it rings (which it will) those pesky RF waves are going right through the tinfoil, which makes it USELESS as a way to protect bees (or anything else) from radio-frequency radiation.

Occam's Razor suggests that the simple explanation is most likely to be the true one, and there is a big smoking gun pointing right at the pesticide industry. The 'cellphone theory' pundits are simply muddying the waters and in some cases may well be funded by the pesticide peddlers to distract attention from the big problem for bees: TOXIC AGRICULTURE.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Buckbee,

That particular conspiracy theory really passes the Occam's Razor test. We know pesticides kill bees, it is not unreasonable that they would try to divert attention from themselves. And they definitely have the money to pay the people to disseminate the rumors.

Gypsi


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Gypsi said:


> Buckbee,
> 
> That particular conspiracy theory really passes the Occam's Razor test. We know pesticides kill bees, it is not unreasonable that they would try to divert attention from themselves. And they definitely have the money to pay the people to disseminate the rumors.
> 
> Gypsi


Is that like a conspiracy within a conspiracy?


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I think it is - a hidden conspiracy behind the widely broadcast conspiracy.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

And the earth reverses its magnetic field every 700,000 years......And how many millions of years have bees been around????...over 200 million? So how many magnetic field reversals have honeybees been through and survived?? I have had bees near high tension power lines for years, long before this theory was ever concocted. They do quite well, thank you. But since everyone here including the mods think the world is going to end. I will contact Alcoa and purchase enough Aluminum foil to wrap all my beehives up--so the Aliens will not detect them.:lookout:TED


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

hahaha - you making yourself a tinfoil hat to go with that?

I do not think the world is going to end, but that's another story...

Gypsi


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Ted Kretschmann said:


> And the earth reverses its magnetic field every 700,000 years......And how many millions of years have bees been around????...over 200 million? TED


Good point. And not to mention that pole reversal is not instantaneous. It takes the entire 700,000 years for the poles to move the entire length (diameter?) of the globe to do so (at some point the poles will cross the equator and we will have east and west poles instead of north and south poles). Who is to say that the current configuration is optimum for honey bee survival. In a realated issue, who is to say that the current global temperature is optimum for honey bee survival. Maybe they flourish if it is a few degrees warmer?


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Grab a transmitting antenna will shock you. Crystal (xtal) radio sets operate from energy derived from the "radio waves". Lightening from an electrical storm does damage without "hitting" a house, but rather by striking in the vicinity of a nearby power line creating a power surge into the house. Microwave ovens....

Not saying any of this has anything to do with CCD, but with radio waves of all lengths passing through us daily isn't there a chance something is going on? Sound comes out the headphone of that crystal set, sparks fly off the end of a dipole antenna, lightening induces a power surge, a bad connection at a lightpole wrecks havoc with your radio reception...so how are live creatures responding long-term to the constant RF? 

We've had man-made rf for well over a hundred years now and there are murmurings of health issues, conspiracy thoughts, far-out-there ideas, thoughts that RF killed JFK and J Hoffa, etc.,. In another hundred years what will folks be saying?...that we were idiots to expose ourselves to so much RF or that we were idiots for thinking that RF could hurt us? Unfortunately, none of us will be around to then to say "I told you so". 

FWIW, just rambling,
Ed


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> Good point. And not to mention that pole reversal is not instantaneous.


Not true....I remember several bluegrass concerts in the mid-70's where the magnetic fields got reversed within a matter of hours and..., uh, oh,...nevermind.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

The poles do not rotate. they wobble , deteriorate and then flip. It is not a continuous process, although to be fair it is a poorly understood process deemed largely dependent on currents within our liquid NiFe core. The record is best shown in the Atlantic seafloor bottom which is constantly being renewed at the mid Atlantic ridge. As the new magma cools, ferrous components within it align to the poles at that time. They point generally north or south, they do not spin circles.
We are geologically speaking overdue for the reversal. It often assumed to happen fairly quick(geologically speaking) as a prolonged period without the protection of our magnetic field would be pretty devastating to life on this planet....also, we see very few "blanks" in the seafloor record.

This was at least the common scientific consensus 15 years ago when I was studying such things.

Seperately, I am pretty sure you need to use fine copper wire to construct a Faraday cage...the spacing of which is pretty precise


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## BoBn (Jul 7, 2008)

Eli I said:


> The reason you use a ground wire is so that all the radiation stays on the outside. It creates an empty space, free from radiation, inside. This is why it's called a "Faraday shield," for it shields you from outside energy.


It doesn't really work as expected.
http://berkeley.intel-research.net/arahimi/helmet/


> although on average all helmets attenuate invasive radio frequencies in either directions (either emanating from an outside source, or emanating from the cranium of the subject), certain frequencies are in fact greatly amplified. These amplified frequencies coincide with radio bands reserved for government use according to the Federal Communication Commission (FCC). Statistical evidence suggests the use of helmets may in fact enhance the government's invasive abilities.


and this:


> For all helmets, we noticed a 30 db amplification at 2.6 Ghz and a 20 db amplification at 1.2 Ghz, regardless of the position of the antenna on the cranium.


It seems to help if you make your foundation with a thin sheet of Gallium arsenide sandwiched between the outer layers of beeswax.

Wired frames pick up all sorts of stray radio, mostly uhf and microwave.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Have the aliens landed yet??? TED


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

buckbee said:


> ... just thought that it was an interesting idea [for] ...people with open minds...


By open minds are you saying for those of us with a hole in our head?


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## Virginia Bee (May 20, 2010)

For those of us with a physics degree...this is one amusing thread.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Don't be so quick to pan the idea.

It has been demonstrated before that EM waves can cause a change in transcription in living tissues.

I personally assisted a professor by removing one such experiment from an EM source (on a weekend). Yes, there was a change in transcription in the sample.

Although it isn't my own personal favorite for the cause of CCD, until we know otherwise...


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## brushmouth (Jan 17, 2010)

GMO Roundup Ready? Bayer? Systemic treatment of seed? Cell phones? Chem Trails?
Some, all or together responsible??
Do they have CCD in Europe?

The pollen collected from crops so treated have an effect on the overall health and condition of the colony.
The adults may or may not be affected on first exposure, but brood could develop that has a weakened immune system leading to their future "confusion or demise".
All in my opinion only, do your own study and research.

Buy a DVD copy of "Vanishing of the Bees", you don't need a degree to understand. 

http://www.vanishingbees.com/

BM


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Intheswamp said:


> Not true....I remember several bluegrass concerts in the mid-70's where the magnetic fields got reversed within a matter of hours and..., uh, oh,...nevermind.


Must have been Winfield Kansas.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

windfall said:


> The poles do not rotate. they wobble , deteriorate and then flip.


Yes the pole(s) wobble in the sort term, but over the course of a million years or so the poles can drift thousands of miles. Magnetic declination changes on a yearly basis by quite a few degrees. For now the poles just happen to be in a north/south configuration that is conventional for human navigation. Bees and animals dont really care where the poles are. They dont read maps or have GPS.

Also, I am not sure if "reversal" is the right term here. A lot of people think that it happens instantaneously - which would be a very bad thing. I suppose that there could be a small somewhat intantaneous shift at certain times (when the poles cross the equator?). That could be bad too. 

Either way, I am not too worried about it.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Virginia Bee said:


> For those of us with a physics degree...this is one amusing thread.


Now this is a diverse group...we even have an amused psychic among us!


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> Must have been Winfield Kansas.


Nope, either Horse Pens 40 up close to the Alabama Bee Co. or at that other place I can't remember the name of...


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## Virginia Bee (May 20, 2010)

Physics and psychics are totally different things. A visit to a library or a search on google may assist.

The probability of an EM field or related matter resulting in colony disorders is far, far less than the direct effect of mites, pesticides, democrats (lol), herbicides, and other related issues.

One must note that until about 20 or so years ago, hives losses were not nearly that big of an issue as compared to today.

What this country has seen over the last generation is a rapid decline of hive populations...ie the total number of hives...due to the changes of our social structure and farm land operation. Whenever you couple a total net decrease in hives over a number of years, and add that to the changes we have in our environment in the areas of land use and operation, throw in some new pests such as mites, logic dictates that the odds of something like CCD increases. In our ecosystem, man had a lot to do with the increase and propigation of honey bees. I feel that this resulted in, over time, man creating breeds of bees that lacked diversity. This lack allowed outside effects to destroy a number of colonies.

Over time, this shall right itself. Either on its own, or with our help.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Virginia Bee said:


> Physics and psychics are totally different things. A visit to a library or a search on google may assist.


Thanks for clarifying that for me, I'm a little slow. 



Virginia Bee said:


> Over time, this shall right itself. Either on its own, or with our help.


Interesting prediction. I'm not sure that it will "right itself", but it will come to a conclusion of some sort...hopefully a positive one...with or without our input. 

Best wishes,
Ed


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Here's the magnetite in Honeybees research articles.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0000395

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0019088


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Maybe the problem is, in this day of GPS, that the poles switched and none of us noticed and that is why the bees are not making it back to the hives... anyone got a compass?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, they're saying that changes in magnetic fields have been shown to cause changes in the size of the magnetite particles and calcium ions in certain tissues in Honeybees.

Although I haven't seen any real evidence linking this to CCD, it does make you wonder.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

nabber,
the poles do not just happen to be in a N-S configuration. They are basically aligned with the rotational axis of the planet and this is true for all planets that show a magnetic field. There is no evidence they have ever come anywhere close to the equator. Land masses that move across the surface of the globe have gone from polar to equatorial postions over time but not he magnetic poles themselves.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Somebody seen my pidgeons or did the reversed poles cause them to migrate in the opposite direction.....


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

windfall said:


> nabber,
> the poles do not just happen to be in a N-S configuration. They are basically aligned with the rotational axis of the planet and this is true for all planets that show a magnetic field. There is no evidence they have ever come anywhere close to the equator. Land masses that move across the surface of the globe have gone from polar to equatorial postions over time but not he magnetic poles themselves.


Now that I think more about it, you are absolutely right.


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## jeb532 (Feb 16, 2011)

A bee's body is just the right length to electrically resonate in the 2-6 GHz RF range....i.e. cellphone frequency range...

I suggest you get a copy of the following 1998 research paper done by the Air Force titled "Current state and implications of research on biological effects of millimeter waves". Some of the authors of the paper went on to develop the Raytheon Active Denial System based on what they discovered.

Physiological effects were found to occur in very narrow band resonant response patterns such that energy levels as small as 1/1000th of what is legally allowed to leak past your microwave oven door had profound effects....cardiac arrythmias, cadiac arrest, genetic changes, boosted or retarded immune response, boosted or inhibited transport of chemicals into or out of cells...the paper covers research findnings from the genetic level to whole body.

Bottom line...we are on the verge of screwing ourselves up royally....


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Well I don't wear my cell phone near the bees, but I figure I'm dead soon enough anyway. It's always in my pocket otherwise.

Gypsi


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

jeb532 said:


> A bee's body is just the right length to electrically resonate in the 2-6 GHz RF range....i.e. cellphone frequency range...
> 
> Physiological effects were found to occur in very narrow band resonant response patterns such that energy levels as small as 1/1000th of what is legally allowed to leak past your microwave oven door had profound effects....cardiac arrythmias, cadiac arrest, genetic changes, boosted or retarded immune response, boosted or inhibited transport of chemicals into or out of cells...the paper covers research findnings from the genetic level to whole body.


I suggest that you actually try reading the paper that you cited. The paper does indeed claim physiological effects from milimeter wave (MMW) frequency range. However, most of the effects are promoted as being positive (i.e. stimulated tissue repair and regeneration, alleviated stress levels, and facilitated recovery in a wide range of diseases). 

THe following are a couple of quotes from the document: 



> Many studies have claimed that MMV is more effective (sometimes far more effective) than conventional methods such as drug therapy, for a variety of diseases and disorders.





> In some cases, MMW has helped the patients who had tried all other known therapies without success and were considered incurable.


http://www.physto.se/~ljvi4037/Proj...earchOnBiologicalEffectsOfMillimeterWaves.pdf


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## jeb532 (Feb 16, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> I suggest that you actually try reading the paper that you cited. The paper does indeed claim physiological effects from milimeter wave (MMW) frequency range. However, most of the effects are promoted as being positive (i.e. stimulated tissue repair and regeneration, alleviated stress levels, and facilitated recovery in a wide range of diseases).
> 
> THe following are a couple of quotes from the document:
> 
> ...


I have read through this paper...multiple times...as well as about 30 other papers on this subject. Yes, at certain frequencies MW energy provides beneficial results. Yet, at other frequencies it results in a negative effect...up to and including sudden death...for instance on page 400 of the paper...

"Ceratin frequencies from the 53-78 HGz band effectively changed the natural heart rate varaibility of anesthetizied rats. The radiation was applied to the upper throracic vertebrae for 20 min at 10 mW/cm2 or less The frequencies of 55 an 73 GHz caused pronopunced cardiac arrhythmia...Skin temperature and whole body temperature of the animals remain unchanged

Similar frequency dependance was observed in additional experiments with 3-h exposures; however, about 25% of the experiments were interrupted because of sudden animal death that occured after 2.5 h of exposure at 51, 61, and 73 GHz...."

The kicker here is that the effects are very narrow band dependent on certain cellular resonant effects and can be dramatically unpleasant...and we have very little reseach to identify what is a good or bad frequency.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Whatever tinfoil man. The paper clearly and OVERWHELMINGLY promotes the POSITIVE therapeudic aspects of MMW, rather than the death-ray attributes that you are trying to claim.


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## jeb532 (Feb 16, 2011)

Nabber86 said:


> Whatever tinfoil man. The paper clearly and OVERWHELMINGLY promotes the POSITIVE therapeudic aspects of MMW, rather than the death-ray attributes that you are trying to claim.


Perhaps you would be willing to volunteer for a little 73 GHz testing...

I came across the paper I referenced during research on millimeter wave therapy as a beneficial modality. Both my wife and father in law suffer from ankylosing spondilytis, a debilitating form of arthritis. Based on what I have found properly applied Millimeter Wave Therapy (MWT) appears to be beneficial. The Russians have been experimenting with it for ~50 years. It would be nice to see it become available here in the US.

However, given the narrowly resonant response characteritics of biologcal life....and the large amount of unknown effects from single or combined frequency/duration/duty cycle/harmonics/exposure cycle...and the extremely small amounts of energy necessary to produce effects....either positive or negative...well...you have heard of Russin Roulette haven't you?


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## MaryN (May 2, 2011)

jeb532 said:


> Perhaps you would be willing to volunteer for a little 73 GHz testing...


Unfortunately advanced technologies are being tested on all of us, without our consent.

If you find this hard to believe just google HAARP and see how much the earth's electromeagnetic field is being interfered with. 
To make the outer atmosphere more conductive elements like barium, aluminium and lithium are spread there, they get ionized by the sun's radiation, changing the properties of this layer on a large scale.

Anybody who thinks that we and our bees are not affected by these changes is sticking his head in the sand.


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