# New beekeepers, good or bad news?



## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

well said and a valid concern TAX, similar concerns have been voiced on other threads. I see the same problems and lack of managment here in the very populated central Fl area. I get a lot of calls from local hobbyists who have questions and need help, or are looking for bees and equipment. That being said i always explain to them this is not a "drop em in a box and harvest honey" hobby, its hands on, frustrating, and at times painful.. and with out proper management they are most likely wasting their money and even worse as you pointed out may infect other bees/beeks with their problems, pathogens, mites, and beetles. I believe education is the key, keep educating.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Amen peacekeeper. Education is the best protection against almost everything. If everyone had as much knowledgeas they could get about bees, bee diseases and pests and the potential problems that we may face w/ Tropilaelaps clareae coming into our country from places we now get queens and packages, hopefully we would see the borders closed to such importations.

The more the merrier. It will always be a mixed blessing, depending on where you sit or stand.


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

peacekeeperapiaries said:


> I believe education is the key, keep educating.


This, I think, is a large part of the problem. Folks are picking up "alternative" techniques before they understand basic beekeeping as outlined by Roger Morse, for example. 

The new breed of beekeeper is college bred and wants to have some super solution to the problems we all have been facing down for years. So, without really understanding the mechanics of the hive from practical experience the experimenting starts. 

The debate about small cell foundation, for example, is something useful in the community. I don't, however, think it's all that appropriate for someone to be puzzling that out at the same time as they are trying to lift a new colony off in New England spring. There are plenty of variables just trying to get going.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Is this like wanting to ride your bike full speed - only you still need those training wheels?

Excellent Points - What sort of language have you found successful in talking with people interested in getting into the hobby? As one of the organizers of my club's bee school I wonder about this a lot. Getting into the hobby and buying new equipment along with a nuc is expensive. I understand when people are intrigued by the idea of a top bar hive that they can build themselves...

I think the interest in bees is a good thing. Encouraging people to use their club as a source for mentors and to encourage them to keep hives with a friend (co-locating multiple hives) so as to compare/contrast differences in development is also a good thing.

This is a good thread to have before planning for school gets serious!


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

Andrew Dewey said:


> Is this like wanting to ride your bike full speed - only you still need those training wheels?


Ahh, they still need the training wheels, but they are attaching a sail. 




Andrew Dewey said:


> Excellent Points - What sort of language have you found successful in talking with people interested in getting into the hobby?


I strongly encourage people to read Roger Morse and Richard Bonney. These authors, IMHO, "wrote the book" on beekeeping. Though they didn't really write into the varroa era, they did write very complete and understandable texts in the "modern era". 

In some ways I see people after they have problems, so they are "more willing" to take some advice. 

My sister wanted to keep bees and I told her that at four years I was beginning to get a handle on it. I also said I'd read more than a dozen books over the winter. Like all very rewarding things, it's complicated and takes a lot of effort. She decided that she didn't want to keep bees after that. 

Personally, I was a field operations manager for a 1600 acre farm, I understand that agriculture doesn't wait for you to get back from the beach. It takes advanced planning and thought. 

I am not seeing beekeeping shown in this light. 

I think it's great that folks want to be "connected to their food". I just want people to succeed. 



Andrew Dewey said:


> Encouraging people to use their club as a source for mentors and to encourage them to keep hives with a friend (co-locating multiple hives) so as to compare/contrast differences in development is also a good thing.


This is super critical. I don't think you can learn beekeeping on the internet. This, I think, is a large part of the mistake. The internet gives you false confidence. It's a great place to help you pick out the "best" Gore-Tex raincoat, but a lousy place to learn something as complex and variable as beekeeping. 

Beesource, is very good at helping me pick x or y, but it's terrible for learning "how to I keep bees". 




Andrew Dewey said:


> This is a good thread to have before planning for school gets serious!


Schools are awesome. I went to a school and then joined my local club. Hearing advanced beekeepers talk monthly about what was happening locally was critical to me making it this far. I still learn the most from being around my betters.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

taxonomy said:


> I think most people here know keeping bees alive is a bit of a challenge, and that you get stung. I think there's suddenly a lot of unmanaged hives out there.


Is that a real concern?

I've heard that said more than once. It may be true but I don't know of any cases of it. Most newbies get out of the hobby when their bees die , and around here, it is more than likely due starvation or poorly mated package queens. It would seem that the ones who give up after getting stung once (if there are any) would just as soon have their bees, hives and all removed from their midst. 

There are a lot of unmanaged colonies out there. They are the wild colonies propagated by swarming. I see them as a genetic reserve and source of future captive hives, not too much as a foulbrood threat. Maybe because foulbrood is not much of a threat here, I am not concerned.

Wayne


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

Maybe it isn't a concern, I don't know. 

I have seen another pattern though, where folks lose interest in keeping when they get hot, or it's just not exciting anymore. 

A man came by the other day and told me he'd killed 8 packages in two years, and he'd never had one make it through the winter. 

I think there is something critically different about feral colonies and unmanaged captive colonies. Wild colonies make their own management decisions and they are not going to make kind of mistakes someone manipulating colonies will. 

Feral colonies will also space themselves pretty widely. I have no control over my neighbors management practice. For all intents and purposes, town is one big apiary with every practice, from best to worst.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Overall, I think it's good news. Awareness is important and new beekeepers are somewhat more enlightened to what bees are all about and the role they play in our world. I'll take that anytime. I am concerned that some adopt it as a hobby or even as a fad. They are the ones that need to have honey so as to provide proof of their "beekeeping" skills. Or they expect success with virtually no effort, as you alluded to. However, these people exist anyway and they'll exercise their approach in beekeeping, motorcycling, home-building, fishing.....you name it. I teach hunter education in MA., and those are the people that insist they will learn nothing and quickly prove themselves wrong. I wish some beekeepers weren't so topical but I'm still happy to have them on board. 

I'm not sure that all beekeepers deserve their bees and I'm positive that not all bees deserve their beekeepers but I'll work hard to help everyone. Bees are worth it.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

The important thing is to emphasize education of bee behavior and bee biology, then management and methods can be accommodated as they go.

enjoy the bees

Big Bear


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

Ravenseye said:


> Overall, I think it's good news. Awareness is important and new beekeepers are somewhat more enlightened to what bees are all about and the role they play in our world. I'll take that anytime.


This is a good thing, without a doubt. 



Ravenseye said:


> I am concerned that some adopt it as a hobby or even as a fad. They are the ones that need to have honey so as to provide proof of their "beekeeping" skills. Or they expect success with virtually no effort, as you alluded to. However, these people exist anyway and they'll exercise their approach in beekeeping, motorcycling, home-building, fishing.....you name it. I teach hunter education in MA., and those are the people that insist they will learn nothing and quickly prove themselves wrong. I wish some beekeepers weren't so topical but I'm still happy to have them on board.
> 
> I'm not sure that all beekeepers deserve their bees and I'm positive that not all bees deserve their beekeepers but I'll work hard to help everyone. Bees are worth it.


Bees are worth it.


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

bigbearomaha said:


> Good to see the old "my way or the highway" beekeeping club is still going strong and making generalized assumptions about methods and people ho use those methods that don't 'fit in'.


This wasn't my intent at all. I tried to be very careful about how I expressed my concern, but apparently, not careful enough. 

I guess my thought is that there's a sea change in beekeeping, that lots and lots of people are entering the "hobby" right now. They are entering it in a way that's going to change things, for the better or worse. 

There are a number of factors that link these newcomers together. In the average though, you wind up with a lot of variable hive management techniques in a small area with many of them likely failing. From an epidemiological standpoint I have to wonder what that means. 

What's happening here is new base map of bee keeping. I am part of that. I live in town, I keep bees in town. I am just saying that from a basic standpoint how many bees are kept is changing. 

Maybe this is for the better, who knows? It's pretty obvious that that the big, big problems like mites and CCD came under the watch of the large commercial bee keepers. So, in light of that, we can't do much worse, or can we?


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## Nephidoc (Jan 5, 2009)

I think the common quote is "90%" of feral bees have died out due to CCD.
How many backyard hives would it take to recover from that?
I don't think we have come close to replenishing the "normal" bee population.
I also don't think feral bee colonies would have been less prone to infestations
then backyard colonies.

I'm not criticizing the thread, I love this kind of discussion.
I just don't think there is anything to worry about, except maybe more competition for that wild flower pollen and nectar.

Stan


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## MeriB (Mar 15, 2010)

I am a 1st year bee keeper. You could even say I am still at the bee haver stage. I thought long and hard before starting. I read books and talked to everyone I could find, I took a short course from a bee keepers assoc. I looked at top bar hives as a way to try to keep costs down but I ended up with 2 langs and plan to add the TBH next year. I took a serious look at the investment required before starting. I lost one package to absconding right off the bat. the result of all this is that i am as comitted as ever to keeping bees. I do not think I am the exception but rather average in my approach. Lets try not to paint all newbees with such a wide and negative brush. Unless you talk to all of us, you have no idea about our motivation and comittment.
Blessed Be
Meridith


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

First off, this is a very interesting thread, many well thought out viewpoints have been expressed, looking forward to hearing others as well. 

There does seem to be a large number of new beekeepers that have gotten into the hobby over the last few years, maybe due to the increase in public awareness of the problems in keeping the honey bee alive. One unfavorable aspect of this popularity that I have observed is the unwillingness of some newbie's to do a thorough reading up on the subject of honey bee behavior and hive management before they get their first hive. I say this because of the obvious ignorance put forth in many of the questions that are asked on this forum about honey bees, I'm sure others have taken notice of this too. Some of the questions are very basic, and asked in all seriousness, but they are questions whose answers are easily found in virtually all of the common reference books on bees. This shows me that no reading is done prior to getting bees in the first place. Not a good omen. John


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## bees in ballard (Jun 1, 2009)

Hi, my 4½¢ (inflation).

1. Use the increased interest to best advantage. 
The prior bee die offs were not noted in the press nearly to this level. 
Find ways to educate people to benifit the bees, the groups, the industry, etc.

2. If we don't help the newbies (note, I am one too) to try the things they want to try they will just do it on their own. 
I know I am, this is my second year and since I do better with bugs than people, I have not joined any groups so far. I did read books, and forums, and blogs for a year before I got my bees, (I know everyone says this, but I read 7 books and logged at least 200 hours on the internet in bee study in that year.) Many folks are not that patient. 

None of the preceding was meant to offend, or demean any person, place or thing. (noun, if you are an adverb you are on your own.)
Thanks JA


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

Education and mentoring go a long way.

Stan, Where did you see the 90% decline in feral stock due to CCD? I have not seen that in my removal business and the colony losses in this area due to CCD are very low to almost none. No problem, I was just wondering.


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## arcatamarcia (Oct 24, 2009)

That also sums up my first year experience. And my husband's as well. Not all of us are thoughtless about what we do with our lives.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

John, I am a new beekeeper (started last year) as well.
Like Meredith in the previous post, I studied a lot before getting my first hive last year. i read books, read forums, watched youtube videos, i visited local beekeepers and helped them with the smoker and watched when they opened their hives, i talked with other beekeepers locally on the phone, I attended a bee school, and i went to a bee club meeting an hour away from me for several months. 
My hive died this last winter. I started two new hives this Spring, which appear to be booming.
I like reading about TBH and am trying out mostly non-treatment, though I run two Langs, and have both some foundation and some foundationless in them.

I too see a lot of shockingly clueless questions coming from newbies here. I read some of their questions and even as a newbie myself, I wonder how on earth their bees have even survived the first two weeks with them.  I want to tell them 'Jeez, read a simple book why don't you?- you can read, can't you?'. 
However, I think it has not so much to do with the 'natural beekeeper fad' amongst college educated new urban bk's (as was previously suggested), as it simply is a reflection of all types of people and how they do things differently in general. 
As with all new endeavors, hobbies, interests, I think you will always get a mix of people. Some will want to learn as much as they can and proceed carefully. They ask questions that are a bit complicated that they couldn't find the answers to otherwise. Others will jump in without knowing anything and imagine it's all so simple that they can get by by asking one or two general questions on this forum. They figure there isn't very much to it, or that they are smart enough to figure it out mostly for themselves. They figure that everyone here will happily type out all the information they need, so why bother reading books or going to classes.
There are just all types in this world.  

I personally feel all these many new beekeepers are mostly a good thing. Just as people are moving back towards having a little kitchen vegetable garden again, raising some lettuce and tomatoes and maybe kale and string beans. People are moving back towards keeping chickens and bees again too. People want to raise some of their own food again both for financial reasons and to eat fresher healthier food. 
I gather that long ago it was common for families with a little bit of land to have a couple of hives in their field or garden. There was always some uncle or cousin nearby who had some bees. Beekeeping is becoming a family affair again, just like vegetable gardening.

I think it's great that this is happening, and I feel the newer bk's who don't bother to learn much or invest much time and energy, well, their bees likely will die off or will go feral. It all just means more bees that are adapted to your local area, more feral swarms to catch, instead of dubious bees being shipped in from far off countries with _new_ diseases and parasites- hardly a wise or sustainable system anyway.


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## Nephidoc (Jan 5, 2009)

Wikapedia
"For example, *feral honey bee populations in the US have dropped about 90%* in the past 50 years, except for the Southwest where they have been replaced by Africanized bees. At the same time managed honey bee colonies have dropped by about two thirds. On the other hand, this has been offset by a natural increase in native pollinator populations in parts of the US, where such had been partially displaced by the invasive honey bees imported from Europe."

I know that is a very generic example but just google 90% feral bees and you'll get about 60K hits.

Stan


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I think the boom in beekeeping interest is a good thing. It has to be helpful to the businesses of more established beeks that sell nuc's and packages. 
Almost all of the equipment we are buying is made in the good old USA - not China.
Every pound of honey we make and sell is one less pound that is imported. Beekeeping in the US is a patriotic endeavor. 
Lastly, I do take issue with the idea that you cannot learn beekeeping from the internet. If it was not for the internet, and Beesource in particular, I would not be keeping bees; I would not have been able to rationalize the cost.
There is no-one around here advocating Top-Bar Hives. With Beesource and M. Bush's website as resources I built a TBH and installed a package. This was my gate-way drug. Having overwintered this hive I got lucky. A local guy posted some free equipment on Beesource and I got a start in Langstroths. I also took a course at the U. of Minnesota, and joined the Minnesota Hobbyists Beekeeping association. 
Yet on a consistent basis there is no resource that has helped me like Beesource has. I cannot say enough about the kindness and patient generosity of people who share their experience on this forum. 
Also where else would you get to witness the the debates that come up? Who would want to miss Mike Palmer and Walt discussing the merits of checkerboarding and more traditional methods? I have a limited travel budget, a tight schedule, and not that much vacation time. From my computer (well my wife's to be honest) I can learn about beekeeping all over the US and beyond. I love this site.:gh: and all the kind souls that are so generous with their time. Time is the most precious commodity of all.


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## bigbearomaha (Sep 3, 2009)

Something else to consider is that other methods are not necessarily a "fad" just because it's not whats popular.

Vertical top bar hives like the "People's Hive" as designed and used by Abbe Emile Warre is not a 'new' style of beekeeping nor the minimalist methods and practices he endorses.

A student of Abbe Warre will know that the Abbe had been an active beekeeper for most of his life, passing away in 1951 at the age of 84. He had experimented with over 350 different types of bee hives and finally designed what he believed was a top notch hive and methodology.

He was very well educated on bee biology and behavior and educated others in his books very well on those topics. The 12th edition of his book "Beekeeping For All" having been published in 1948.

So you see, some of us who use other hive types and methods beyond those of L Langstroth and others are not "just making it up" as we go along, but are following established, researched and documented ideologies and designs.

As a matter of fact, the hive and methodologies advocated by Abbe Warre are quite similar to those by a German beekeeper named Johann Ludwig Christ. He developed his design and methods about 1783, making the vertical top bar hive as we know it a documented, established and successful hive and method for about 227 years now.

Just because we do things differently does not mean we are uneducated.

Big Bear


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

@Adrian - BeeSource and other internet sites are a great resource - but try as we might the people who post here are posters on an internet site and not people going through your hive(s) with you. BeeSource is great when you're stumped by a problem and can articulately describe it. It is less so when little information is presented and the responders have to figure out what the questioner is really asking and gently prompt for additional information. All in all I wouldn't be without it.

But I think the point that Omie and others were making is that BeeSource and/or the internet shouldn't be a beginning beek's only resource to learn about bees and beekeeping. Books are available at little cost through your local library - and many clubs & state associations have extensive beekeeping book & tape libraries available to members. Dues for our state association is $15/year.

My club holds several open hives during the summer and they are always eye opening for new beekeepers. Seeing pictures of swarm cells on the internet is different than seeing a frame with 10 of them in person. And being able to talk with local beeks about what they do when they discover stuff (like swarm cells) is priceless.

Last weekend at an open hive we looked at 3 hives belonging to a second year beekeeper. One hive had a number of swarm cells, some of which were recently open. As the beek did not want any additional hives and no one was prepared to take a cell, after seeing a queen in the hive the decision was made to cut the remaining swarm cells. The cut cells were put on top of an adjacent hive where after a few minutes we found a newly emerged queen walking around. And 10 minutes later another one. Experiences like that just can't happen on the net. Even if you were watching a video of the inspection.

So I hear you that BeeSource can be a tremendous resource. I'm on most every day and I wouldn't waste my time if I didn't find it helpful. But it should compliment your other beekeeping learning activities. If not you are getting a sub par education.

I'm glad to hear that you were able to over winter your TBH with BeeSource as your primary resource. However, I think your success was an exception rather than a rule. Best of luck in the future!


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## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

If I only knew how much I don't know, I probably wouldn't be a beekeeper now, wouldn't have my bussines, wouldn't be a parent, wouldn't ...

You jump in the lake, you better be swimming. You learn, as you go.From March this year ordered 2 nucs, liked the buzz, ordered 3 more, planted 100+ fruit trees, 200 black locust, ordered 10 more nucs for spring, every night reading, reading, reading. Books, blogs, sometimes very confused - sign that I'm learning something according to M.Bush.:thumbsupgreat site Michael)
Intrique is a key word here. I hate to be bored, and there is allways something new in beekeeping.Golden rod, hyssop, sweet clover, see them from 50 meters now, didn't know existed few months back.
I'm on bee forums, every night, checking old and new threads, and found some really boring "senior" members answering most of the questions, and saying nothing, and some new "kids" asking very smart questions...
New beekeepers are good thing.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

I visited your website and I find it interesting how your bees collect from only "Liberal" planted flowers within two zip codes. 

You should post this to the Bee-L list.


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## flatfootflukey (Jun 15, 2010)

i think new beekeepers are what is needed. the old ones can't live forever and without new comers getting into keeping bees the art would die out.
as for not being able to learn from the internet. all the books in the world can not compare to a lifetime of experience and on Beesource there is access to almost 10000 lifetimes. 
i have read many books and watched a few DVDs unfortunately my bees haven't so they are not always doing what the book says they should or things look different than the pictures in the book so as a newbie sometimes i freak out and ask a dumb question {by the way thanks to everyone who has answered or gave advice!! } but at least I'm still trying learn. 
clubs and classes are great if they are available to you but not everyone has access to them. the hours i have to work {self employed if I'm not there the place is closed } and my distance from the nearest club { 73 miles and starts an hour before i close} excludes me from being able to participate.
what it all boils down to is everyone is here for the same reason the love and fascination of honey bees and i say the more the merrier


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

been at this 2 years with bee's several more planning and not able to start. Upto almost 60 hives this year. My son and I have gotten closer and are working together on this. I bank roll it but, he is really doing a great job when it comes to catching swarms making Nuc's and marking queens. I can never find them so this helps.

To the point. I talk about bee's once a day at least and I am just amazed the people that want to talk about it and learn more. My mom had brain cancer and she would call daily and ask how my bee's were doing. She never asked how my family was just how the bee's were. I so enjoy learning in this forum and reading about how to do things and why. I love building new nuc's queen castles etc. 

This is a great hobby and hope more people get involved. Thank you to all for your great ideas and advice.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

BeeCurious said:


> I visited your website and I find it interesting how your bees collect from only "Liberal" planted flowers within two zip codes.
> 
> You should post this to the Bee-L list.


Who you talkin' too?

Not seeing any smiley faces, this comes across as a serious comment, a critisism, a dig. What does it have to do w/ "New beekeepers, good or bad news?"


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> Who you talkin' too?
> 
> Not seeing any smiley faces, this comes across as a serious comment, a critisism, a dig. What does it have to do w/ "New beekeepers, good or bad news?"


I don't mind. I think I am on the Bee-L list. 

Wasn't that complied by Cheney? The tinfoil under my baseball cap keeps the satellites from reading my thoughts, so it's OK.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

Nephidoc said:


> I know that is a very generic example but just google 90% feral bees and you'll get about 60K hits.


Which just sort of shows that people are repeating this info-bite over and over everywhere. _What's the actual *source* of this 'fact'_ is what I'd like to know.
It reminds me of the old "It takes 8 pounds of wax to make one pound of honey" thing...repeated over and over and over until it becomes indisputable 'fact'.  Keep in mind that Wikipedia spreads 'facts' like chicken pox.


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

Omie said:


> Which just sort of shows that people are repeating this info-bite over and over everywhere. _What's the actual *source* of this 'fact'_ is what I'd like to know.
> It reminds me of the old "It takes 8 pounds of wax to make one pound of honey" thing...repeated over and over and over until it becomes indisputable 'fact'.  Keep in mind that Wikipedia spreads 'facts' like chicken pox.


Wikipedia was found to be about as accurate as Encyclopedia Britannica, according to the journal Nature. Generally speaking, Wikipedia cites their references. This may be disputable, but I wouldn't go blaming Wikipedia. 

The real problem is just plain folks websites when it comes to poor info. I'm a librarian, and I see this kind of thing all the time. Like, "Tell me how toast causes cancer, I saw it on xyz.com" and then I go there to look at it, and there are pink unicorns are all around the information about toast causing cancer. The web may be promulgating bad information, but it isn't Wikipedia most of the time.


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## Mike Snodgrass (Mar 11, 2010)

The biggest problem is that nobody wants to take the time to read a book! The instant gratification folks are not patient enough for that! You can tell when they get on here and ask something like, eg. "Should i feed my bees after putting them in the box?" or, "What does a good brood pattern look like?", or a hundred others! Get a book folks!!!


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Well then, maybe we should abandon beesource.com beacuse everything we need to know can be found in a book?


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## honeydreams (Aug 10, 2009)

Omie said:


> It reminds me of the old "It takes 8 pounds of wax to make one pound of honey"


Omie it is fact would like to read the books on the subject matter? and it 7-10 pounds of honey to make up one pound of wax. Very scientificly proven fact! not some wikipedia hogwash.


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## honeydreams (Aug 10, 2009)

Well I just want to chime in. I for one feels that what ever the reason some one gets in to beekeeping is good. Some stay at the hobby level while others move on up to side liner or bigger, yet while some will stay and others will go into the shadows of time. its not for I or any one else to judge. The best we who have been keeping bees for a while is to mentor the new people show what books to read what web sites to go to and help them at every turn. help set standards beekeeping and help every beek keep to them. And yes most questions can be answered by reading books but some times coming here to see what works for people is as important.


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

Nabber86 said:


> Well then, maybe we should abandon beesource.com beacuse everything we need to know can be found in a book?


Books, face-to-face and internet all have different uses. 

I don't think the internet is a particularly good place to learn a "whole" thing.

As an example. many books are laid out on a "beekeeping year" format, taking the reader through an entire year. In this way, over maybe 100 pages, a reader gets the scope of the year and it's challenges. 

The internet, by comparison, tends to provide lots of useful snippets of information. It's a great place to get a question answered. I understand that question answering is a part of learning, but it's a fragment of it. 

Sitting down with a book and taking the time to read it through is an investment in time, and the investment yields a result. There is not a comparable yield without that investment. 

The fact of the matter is that people read much slower off of screens, and the read less long. They store and retrieve this information in a different way. 


Don't get me wrong. The internet has been of tremendous use to me for many, many things. It has enormous value. 

There's another thing too. Ross Conrad of Organic Beekeeping posts here occasionally. I could, perhaps, get an idea of what his thinking is but I am not going to get the broad scope of his methodology. 

In my opinion, having a mentor is absolutely the best way to get started in bee keeping. Taking a series of classes would be close behind. But the nature of beekeeping is best learned hands on and in person. 

Books are useful for understanding how it all comes together, they have a special place as the winter "work" of keepers. 

The internet is a distant third in all of this. It's a great question answerer, but it presents totalities poorly. Actions in beekeeping are not isolated from one another. Feeding has something to do with queens and brood and weather and honey flows. It's tough to put that up in a single post. 

On the other hand, I was given a "special" queen cell last week and made up a nuc for it. I was wondering how many days I should wait to go back and check it. That sort of question is great for the internet. 

I am talking here, particularly, about folks starting out. My concern is that beekeeping vulnerable, with global threats being imported and mixed up here locally. This is happening at a time when lots of people are entering the "hobby" (is this really a hobby, like painting miniature tea cups?) and they are creating a particularly dense vector of transport of disease. 

Backyard gardening also is on the rise, and here in the northeast we had a tremendous tomato blight in part because lots of lots of people were growing tomatoes int their backyard. To fill this demand Lowes and Home Depot imported lots of tomatoes plants from the south. Since the demand was high QC was low and lots of blighted stock arrived. When it was a particularly rainy last year the blight took off. 

With the millions of backyard gardens the blight had no problem hopscotching across New England. Since so many of the gardeners were new, casual gardeners it wasn't nipped in the bud and it killed nearly every tomato crop in the land. 

Now, it's in the soil and it's back again. They just plowed under a farm not far from here. I'm just glad it was professionals that were farming that, that they recognized it and killed it off. 

My tale is a cautionary, and it needn't come true.


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## MeriB (Mar 15, 2010)

With reference to mentors, we can'y always find one. My good friend has been in bees for 30 years. Things I have learned here, in class and from reading appear to be new to him but O don't discount the worth of his experience. Also, and perhaps more importantly,our schedules just don't always work. that is why I come here to ask questions.
As for Lowes and the tomatoes last year, blight was a problem for ALL the suppliers. I don't think it is right to blame the guy who wanted a few plants in his garden for the problem. 
Meridith


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## Mike Snodgrass (Mar 11, 2010)

Nabber86 said:


> Well then, maybe we should abandon beesource.com beacuse everything we need to know can be found in a book?


Dont read books Nabber!! Believe everything ever said on the internet!!!:scratch:


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

MeriB said:


> With reference to mentors, we can'y always find one. My good friend has been in bees for 30 years. Things I have learned here, in class and from reading appear to be new to him but O don't discount the worth of his experience. Also, and perhaps more importantly,our schedules just don't always work. that is why I come here to ask questions.


Use the mix of resources appropriately. 




MeriB said:


> As for Lowes and the tomatoes last year, blight was a problem for ALL the suppliers. I don't think it is right to blame the guy who wanted a few plants in his garden for the problem.
> Meridith


The main problem came from large retailers that struggled to meet demand from many new gardeners. I am not "blaming the guy who wants a few plants". What I am saying is that a very large sociological change took place.

Lot's of people got excited about "local food" and started gardens. This started wheels in motion that was much, much bigger. When national chains started transporting massive amounts of stock around, it spread a local problem (blight in the southern nurseries) and made it regional. 

Just step back from the picture and recognize that there is a fundamental change happening here. It has *potential* ramifications. 

I am part of this. I am a new urban beekeeper and wonder about the effects of my actions. I am not blaming anyone.

I was talking to an old timer recently and he memtioned that he thought AFB was not the problem that it once was. He attributed this to the "old timers" dying off, quitting after the worst of the mites and getting out of the business. His thinking what that lots of hives had been retired or burned or whatever. Hence the reserve of AFB in old wooden ware had declined, so you saw less of it. 

The actions of individuals don't matter much, but collective movements and changes at the sociological level have a profound impact.


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## MeriB (Mar 15, 2010)

You are right, we are all part of the big picture. That said, we do the best we can with the resources we have. Some go to the big box store, some to nurseries and some start with seed. There is no guarentee.
The same is true for new bee keepers. We get packages, nucs or full hives acording to what is available to us. The best we can hope for is that other will be there to help us along the way. If we help each other as the folks on this forum so willingly do, we can make a bretter picture for everyone!
Meridith


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## Tara (Jun 17, 2010)

I'm a complete newbee. This spring I watched a YouTube video about how bees use vector calculus in their waggle dance to show other bees where to find nectar, and picked up Beekeeping for Dummies while wandering thru Barnes & Noble. Two days later I'd finished the book and KNEW I wanted to try it. Got a nuc in early June (end of local flow) and have fed them since. Then I got another nuc. And I've been on the forums.

After 3 books, every weekend with the bees, and countless hours reading whatever catches my eye here on the forums, combined with posting every question I can't find the answer to in my books, I still can't say where I've learned the most. There's different kinds of knowledge and I can use it all. Right now I'm experimenting with having my bees make queen cells--I know I'm gonna make mistakes; I'm expecting it. But I'm pushing the limits as much as I can and I'm learning tons. Yesterday I cut my first queen cell out of the comb and it was a lot more difficult than I would have thought, even having watched videos and read about it and all. Honey was dripping all over, I got stung thru the glove, couldn't get the honey-coated wax to stick to the new frame, couldn't get the bees off the honey on my glove, and trying, above all, not to crush the cell or let it go non-vertical!

The queen may or may not live. If she does live, she may never fly, and it will be my fault. But the point is that I learned a ton making all those mistakes, and maybe I'll make fewer next time. If I hadn't read anything or watched the videos and talked to you guys here, I probably never even would have gotten as far as attempting queens this year. 

So I guess I'm saying that while its good to read up as much as you can in the beginning, there is a ton of stuff not in books (or at least not in the beginner books at your disposal) and sometimes you have to jump in with both feet and hope the Mighty Forum can save you! Otherwise, I at least wouldn't be learning at half the rate I am now!

So yeah.... thanks all who have put up with my questions and patiently answered them, even if it WAS discussed in depth last week! 

~Tara


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## FRAMEshift (Jun 27, 2010)

People who are entering beekeeping come from different backgrounds and may be experts in other areas of endeavor. Since beekeeping is in a crisis I would think that all those different talents being brought to bear on the problems would be a great thing. One of those urban college kids may discover something that will solve the varroa problem or double honey production. 

Here's what I know. The "old hands" have failed to develop a sustainable method of keeping bees in the age of SHB, varroa, etc, etc. Bees are producing honey laced with dangerous chemicals and can't survive without sugar and traps and foundation. I don't think folks who are so dependent on industrial beekeeping have too much room to criticize those enthusiastic newcomers who just might improve the world's most exciting sport.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

honeydreams said:


> and it 7-10 pounds of honey to make up one pound of wax. Very scientificly proven fact! not some wikipedia hogwash.


I often hear that "scientificly proven fact" [sic] quoted on the internet. Always said with certainty and conviction, always lacking links to or citations of actual scientific studies or other empirical evidence.

The following quotes by beekeeping authors and also by a by-gosh actual bee biologist show they haven't heard about this "scientificly proven fact." [Following quotes lifted from Michael Bush's website. Always count on Michael to have done the heavy reading.]

Richard Taylor: "Until quite recently it was thought that bees could store seven pounds of honey for every pound of beeswax that they needed to manufacture for the construction of their combs--a figure which seems never to have been given any scientific basis, and which is in any case quite certainly wrong." 

Cogshill and Morse: "Their degree of efficiency in wax production, that is how many pounds of honey or sugar syrup are required to produce one pound of wax, is not clear. It is difficult to demonstrate this experimentally because so many variables exist. The experiment most frequently cited is that by Whitcomb (1946). He fed four colonies a thin, dark, strong honey that he called unmarketable. The only fault that might be found with the test was that the bees had free flight, which was probably necessary so they could void fecal matter; it was stated that no honey flow was in progress. The production of a pound of beeswax required a mean of 8.4 pounds of honey (range 6.66 to 8.80). Whitcomb found a tendency for wax production to become more efficient as time progressed. This also emphasizes that a project intended to determine the ratio of sugar to wax, or one designed to produce wax from a cheap source of sugar, requires time for wax glands to develop and perhaps for bees to fall into the routine of both wax secretion and comb production."

A small point (particularly Whitcomb's max. value of 8.80 lbs, not your 10 lbs) but so much "scientificly proven fact" repeated here is often just so much internet hogwash. Provide a link or citation to the science so we can be done with it.

Wayne


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

FRAMEshift said:


> Here's what I know. The "old hands" have failed to develop a sustainable method of keeping bees in the age of SHB, varroa, etc, etc. Bees are producing honey laced with dangerous chemicals and can't survive without sugar and traps and foundation. I don't think folks who are so dependent on industrial beekeeping have too much room to criticize those enthusiastic newcomers who just might improve the world's most exciting sport.


This sort of statement is so ill informed that it makes me want to cry. It makes the "enthusiastic newcomers" sound like the second coming of Christ while belittling the learning about bees accumulated over generations.


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## FRAMEshift (Jun 27, 2010)

Andrew Dewey said:


> This sort of statement is so ill informed that it makes me want to cry. It makes the "enthusiastic newcomers" sound like the second coming of Christ while belittling the learning about bees accumulated over generations.


It isn't just about accumulating knowledge... it's about what you value. If you value the amount of honey produced over the quality of honey, then you get lots of mediocre honey. If you value cheap packages over locally adapted nucs, you will get cheap, non-adapted bees. 

People who make their living raising bees have maximized financial returns in a very competitive environment. But as has been the case in one area of agriculture after another, the chemicals that give commercial beeks a temporary advantage over the competition, end up inducing resistance and a market where everyone is paying just to stay even. The only winners are the chemical companies. 

I like that second coming analogy.  I suspect that totally new approaches (or the revival of some very old ones) may be the savior of beekeeping. As much knowledge as you may think has been accumulated and assimilated into industrialized beekeeping, I doubt that we have scratched the surface of what is really going on with bees that have been doing their thing without our help for 100 million years.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

I met Dee Lusby this past weekend. Spoke with her and listened to her talks. Dee is a commercial beekeeper and has been for decades. Her knowledge of bees, the honey industry, commercial beekeeping in general, the politics of the industry and the research into bees and particularly cell-size that has been done over perhaps the last one hundred years is astounding. More so, is her knowledge and hands-on commercial experience in small-cell, treatment-free beekeeping. As I mentioned elsewhere, she started her 1 1/2 hour presentation on treatment-free beekeeping with "Well, I don't put anything in my hives............. Should I go home now?"

As busy as Dee is with running a commercial apiary in "white honey machines" as some often describe Langstroth hives, she often speaks at and hosts treatment-free beekeeping conferences, sharing her extensive knowledge with everyone from very experienced beeks to know-it-all newbies. This is the kind of person to look to as a mentor and if you get someone with one-tenth the knowledge, consider yourself lucky.

Dee has been keeping bees in a natural and sustainable manner for decades. Those who dismiss experience or equate commercial with having no values do not know their butt from a hole in the ground.

Wayne


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

FRAMEshift said:


> It isn't just about accumulating knowledge... it's about what you value.


You are absolutely right. There are many beeks (myself included) who won't use antibiotics, follow IPM practices before using anything for mites (and wouldn't dream of using Apistan or Checkmite) and in general support organic farming practices.

One of my yards consists of 8 colonies of Russian bees in Langstroth hives on an organic farm. I'm doing what I can to keep bees successfully while honoring the farm's organic mission. I try to educate anyone with any interest in the bees - I have an open hive every week at this yard that is open to everyone. My style of open hive is to put a hive tool in the hands of the "students" and help them interpret what they are seeing.

If I was just in it for the money I'd shoot for bees that were nectar and pollen gathering machines, rob every resource from them in the fall, and let the bees die over the winter and then replace them with "cheap" packages in the spring.

I don't know of any beekeepers who follow this practice today but once upon a time it was not unheard of. Part of beekeeping for me is keeping the bees alive and helping them to thrive. 

Every generation of beeks brings new ideas/values to the table. I certainly don't reject experimentation and learning. But at the same time I don't jump blindly on every new beekeeping fad. When something like screened bottom boards come along and lots of people report good results, I'll try them. But when I find that in my location hives on them do poorly I reserve the right to stop using them. (Incidentally I've lost every colony I've put on SBBs)

What I'm trying to say is that there is a lot of good and practical beekeeping knowledge among beekeepers who mostly follow the so called modern traditions. I go out of my way to share what knowledge I have knowing full well that beekeeping knowledge isn't static and that the next generation will be doing and trying things that seem nonsensical to me. My hope is that the learning I'm able to pass along will help them get there.


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## FRAMEshift (Jun 27, 2010)

Well, Dee is hardly part of the typical commercial bee production world. She is and has always been the antithesis of industrialized beekeeping. But I'll bet she would be the first to say that we have not even begun to understand bees. I hope you are not trying to imply that the Lusbys are representative of the "wisdom" of commercial beekeepers since the overwhelming majority of them want nothing to do with her methods.


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## FRAMEshift (Jun 27, 2010)

Andrew Dewey said:


> If I was just in it for the money I'd shoot for bees that were nectar and pollinating machines, rob every resource from them in the fall, and let the bees die over the winter and then replace them with "cheap" packages in the spring.
> 
> I don't know of any beekeepers who follow this practice but once upon a time it was not unheard of.


Obviously, I was not thinking of you when I described commercial beeks. From your description of how you operate, I think you are one of the new enthusiastic beeks I was praising. But I think you are a tiny minority. A majority of the nation's hives get carted to California in February for the almond pollination season. From what I've seen, those folks do pretty much what you describe as "once upon a time". Maybe all the disease, pests, CCD etc have changed the world since 2007. If so, my view may be outdated. And I would be delighted.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

FRAMEshift said:


> I hope you are not trying to imply that the Lusbys are representative of the "wisdom" of commercial beekeepers since the overwhelming majority of them want nothing to do with her methods.


Nope not representative of the industry as a whole, though I am learning of more and more commercial beekeepers taking a more natural, sustainable approach to the business of bees.

Of course, I am not one who makes such broad-brush generalizations about members of an entire industry or group, so I look for the individuals and groups of individuals in the industry that are making positive changes while also learning from the newcomers I find that do have something worthwhile to offer. I dismiss the "my way is the right way" approach of some oldtimers just as quickly as I do the pontifications of know-it-all newbies.

I don't see an industry based, for example, on TBH any time soon but maybe some newcomer will show me how it can be done commercially. I'm willing to learn and will concede that, though I got my first hives in the 1980s, I do not know it all. You say "A majority of the nation's hives get carted to California in February for the almond pollination season" as if that is some conclusive statement. What about that statement would change when newbies set the standards? Almond production ceases? Or what?

Please, continue to educate us.

Wayne


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## FRAMEshift (Jun 27, 2010)

waynesgarden said:


> I don't see an industry based, for example, on TBH any time soon but maybe some newcomer will show me how it can be done commercially. I'm willing to learn and will concede that, though I got my first hives in the 1980s, I do not know it all.


Maybe we just have different experiences with what it means to be commercial in beekeeping. All the large or even medium scale commercial people I know personally in NC are older and very dogmatic about chemicals, foundation, etc. I mean aggressively dogmatic. They go out of their way to suppress discussion of alternatives. The new folks who are more experimental are not commercial on any real scale so far. I hope it's different where you are. Sure, I have read and talked via forums and email with people like Michael Bush and Dean Stiglitz and they give me hope that beekeeping can survive and flourish in spite of all the challenges. 


> You say "A majority of the nation's hives get carted to California in February for the almond pollination season" as if that is some conclusive statement. What about that statement would change when newbies set the standards? Almond production ceases? Or what?
> 
> Please, continue to educate us.
> 
> Wayne


My point was that as more newbies get involved in beekeeping, the majority of hives will be small scale and/or non-commercial. They won't be traveling across the country on pollination runs. I don't know that almond pollination practices will change, but that part of the commercial business won't be driving the agenda of the nation's beekeepers. Even in NC, I see a big increase in interest by the public in local food production and non-chemical means of production. There is a huge upsurge in young beekeepers and they are finding ways to market clean honey and wax on a small scale. That will eventually drive a market for large scale equipment suppliers etc. Eventually the economics favors the alternatives. And yes, if industrial beekeeping continues as it is, maybe almond production will cease because pollination will be too expensive.


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

waynesgarden said:


> A small point (particularly Whitcomb's max. value of 8.80 lbs, not your 10 lbs) but so much "scientificly proven fact" repeated here is often just so much internet hogwash. Provide a link or citation to the science so we can be done with it.
> 
> Wayne


I've noticed that "little things" like this wind up becoming a big deal on the internet, but not so much in real life or in books. The internet is wild with sticking points like this. 

I read the Wikipedia entry, and to me it's not exactly clear if when extracting you wind up with a pound of wax for evey 10 lbs. of honey, or whatever. The nice this is that since it is Wikipedia if it bothers you, you can create an account, change the information and cite the correction. That's why Wikipedia is good. 

For what it's worth, I tried to calculate the amount of calories embodied in a gram of wax and got something like 9. There's maybe 3 calories per gram of honey. If you look at everything that comes into the hive as potential "work" in terms of embodied calories wax is pretty expensive. As a finished product it's embodying three time the amount of calories as honey. 

My best guess is that there would be a significantly higher conversion cost to drawing wax than there would be to ripening nectar, but maybe I am wrong. 

At any rate, in terms of calories brought into the hive, it's "expensive" to create wax, per gram.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I did that calculation and posted it back in February. It promptly killed that thread about how many pounds of honey it takes to make a pound of wax. From an energy standpoint the 8 to 10 pound figure doesnt hodl up: 



> How about an energy equivalent approach?
> 
> From a bottle of honey in my cabinet, 1 gram of honey has 2.86 food calories.
> 
> ...


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## FRAMEshift (Jun 27, 2010)

Nabber86 said:


> Or 1 pound of wax = only 3.5 pounds of honey.


You are assuming 100% efficiency in the conversion of honey to wax. Not possible. If the efficiency is 50% , then 1 pound of wax would equal 7 pounds of honey. Just sayin'.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Absolutely true. It is just a question of effciency, no matter how you look at it. 

Of course then you have to wonder how efficient bees are at making honey from. Sure you can simply look at the ratio of specific gravities (or calories) of honey to nectar, but how much honey do the bees eat in the process? 

Never mind how many pounds of honey it takes to make a pound of wax, I want to know how many pounds of honey it takes to make a pound of honey. Afterall, there is a whole lot more honey in a hive than wax.


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## taxonomy (Apr 15, 2010)

I don't think it actually matters so much if there's a conversion factor for honey. Maybe it's enough to know it's a relatively "expensive" hive product for the bees to produce. I have not seen these numbers in print (an actual book) or ever quoted to me in face to face learning. This sort of data arguments are stuff I find on the net. 

This is what I mean about the internet is that it tends to isolate facts out of context and focus on them. I guess it might be interesting as some kind of component of top bar bee keeping if people go the crush and strain route, but without a context it's just people arguing about data. 

My net result is that it's good to have bees draw good comb so I don't need to uselessly break up bridge comb. This is what I would tell newbies, drawing wax represents work to the bees. Here is how to get the bees to draw good comb, don't waste their time. They have other things to do.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

FRAMEshift said:


> People who are entering beekeeping come from different backgrounds and may be experts in other areas of endeavor. Since beekeeping is in a crisis I would think that all those different talents being brought to bear on the problems would be a great thing. One of those urban college kids may discover something that will solve the varroa problem or double honey production.
> 
> Here's what I know. The "old hands" have failed to develop a sustainable method of keeping bees in the age of SHB, varroa, etc, etc. Bees are producing honey laced with dangerous chemicals and can't survive without sugar and traps and foundation. I don't think folks who are so dependent on industrial beekeeping have too much room to criticize those enthusiastic newcomers who just might improve the world's most exciting sport.


Another generalization you've made in a different posting was that the majority of the nation's hives are transported to California for almond pollination. I'd like to know your source for this information. 

You sure do paint with a broad brush. And when called on it, you equivocate...e.g. the Lusby's are "old hands" but their methods are universally rejected by commercial beeks, so they do not qualify as old hands then? What about the Weaver's in Texas, or Mike Bush, or etc etc etc... All of these "Old Hands" are working desperately to save the bees in such a way as to be a benefit to all of us, commercial and non-commercial alike. 

And because you have negative experiences with some commercial beeks in your home state, ergo, ALL commercial beeks are culprits in the commercial-chemical conspiracy in the beekeeping world. My personal experience has been that many "old hands" are desperately trying any and everything to help maintain their hives, while struggling to go chemical-free. Of course there are those who keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again, because they're too hide-bound to try anything different. Give them a couple of years, and they'll be out of the business. But the idea that newbies are the "second-coming" that will save the bees and beekeeping is insulting. That newbies will show everyone how to produce untainted honey and wax implies the rest of us are foisting that kind of product on our customers. 

My guess is you are ignorant of industry efforts to get untainted honey off the market, esp. tainted Chinese honey. Or the consortiums developing among the commercial beeks to keep honey pure, and raise consumer awareness of the advantages of buying local and US produced honey. 

I guess I'm just disappointed that a newbie would come to this forum, designed by "old hands" to faciliate discussion, knowledge and growth among beekeepers, and start throwing rocks.
Regards,
Steven


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## FRAMEshift (Jun 27, 2010)

StevenG said:


> You sure do paint with a broad brush. And when called on it, you equivocate...e.g. the Lusby's are "old hands" but their methods are universally rejected by commercial beeks, so they do not qualify as old hands then? What about the Weaver's in Texas, or Mike Bush, or etc etc etc... All of these "Old Hands" are working desperately to save the bees in such a way as to be a benefit to all of us, commercial and non-commercial alike.


Oh yeah, I actually like to use a roller and smear the paint all over the place.  

I never said the Lusby's are "old hands". That was your conclusion. ( And I specifically mentioned the contributions of Michael Bush.) For me that term has nothing to do with age or time in grade. It has to do with attitude. 

Aren't you being a bit disingenuous to appear to defend Dee from my awesome paintbrush if you are at the same time using chemicals in your operation? She would have none of that.

I'm an old fart myself so I've seen the scenario play out in many areas of human endeavor. People get attached to their way of doing things and resent newbees trying to shake things up. Well, if the newbees are wrong, the old hands will have nothing to worry about will they?

My original point was that the commercial beekeeping industry in the US has failed. If you are a commercial beek, you apparently took this personally. Not meant that way. Of course I know about efforts to keep out Chinese honey and I agree with that, but I'm not going to wave the flag and say "buy American" unless that American honey is cleaner and better, which I think it is. But the emphasis should be on the quality of the honey and not just the origin. 



> But the idea that newbies are the "second-coming" that will save the bees and beekeeping is insulting. That newbies will show everyone how to produce untainted honey and wax implies the rest of us are foisting that kind of product on our customers.


I don't know about you specifically and as I said it's not personal. But yes, I think most of the commercial operations I know about are foisting off a contaminated product that props up an unsustainable business model. I've had these same people tell me that all their profit is eaten up by the expense of the chemicals they use. I've seen that pattern before in other areas of agriculture.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

I am neither commercial, nor do I use chemicals.
Regards,
Steven


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## Deeptime (Jul 21, 2009)

As a 2nd year beek, I get asked by a lot of wannabees and I remind them about the weight of mediums and the weight lifting of deeps, and how hot a suit can get. I don't discourage them but for me, those are the big personal negatives of beeking, mites aside.


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## FRAMEshift (Jun 27, 2010)

Deeptime said:


> As a 2nd year beek, I get asked by a lot of wannabees and I remind them about the weight of mediums and the weight lifting of deeps, and how hot a suit can get. I don't discourage them but for me, those are the big personal negatives of beeking, mites aside.


Those are negatives for me too. This is an area where it's good to challenge the assumptions. We have switched over to long hives.... horizontal hives holding 30-33 standard deep frames. No lifting of boxes. Easy to access any given frame without having to move the others. Of course, long hives are not mobile in the sense that a Lang is. But it's not meant to be moved. You can shift frames without moving boxes. That wouldn't work for remote pollination, but we aren't interested in that. 

As for the heat, yeah, I work in a full suit most of the time. So in the summer I work hives only in the morning. Not bad at all.


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## Mike Snodgrass (Mar 11, 2010)

Frameshift, are you also doing foundationless??


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## mrspock (Feb 1, 2010)

taxonomy said:


> This, I think, is a large part of the problem. Folks are picking up "alternative" techniques before they understand basic beekeeping as outlined by Roger Morse, for example.
> 
> The new breed of beekeeper is college bred and wants to have some super solution to the problems we all have been facing down for years. So, without really understanding the mechanics of the hive from practical experience the experimenting starts.


Your words really ring true. There's a certain annoying precociousness among many of the the new beekeepers, combined with an arrogant dismissal of what has gone before.

Will there be a reconciliation and knowledge-sharing between the old and the new, or will the new re-invent the wheel after a few failures?

It will be fascinating to see it develop.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

To use a few clichés.. As of 2006 this wheel has had the need of being at least modified but you shouldn't throw the "baby out with the bathwater." In a time when everything is being questioned the learning goes both ways, us "old hands" are having to learn "new tricks" but my passed experiences should not be discounted because I didn't start keeping bees a week ago. I have no fear of a nubee "savior" especially when they are posting questions like "What are the big yellow things on my bees back legs?"  Overall I think the new blood is a good thing even with the many that will enter it because it is "cool".:thumbsup:


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## FRAMEshift (Jun 27, 2010)

Mike Snodgrass said:


> Frameshift, are you also doing foundationless??


Still partly on foundation but all the new drawing is foundationless. We are pulling out foundation as fast as possible. It may take another year to get totally foundationless. We're expanding again next spring and the new packages will go briefly on plastic small cell and will switch after a few months to foundationless.


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

mrspock said:


> There's a certain annoying precociousness among many of the the new beekeepers, combined with an arrogant dismissal of what has gone before.


I'm not so sure this has necessarily to do with _new beekeepers_ per se....I see this kind of tone in other forums online about other subjects as well...cycling, music, gardening, etc. I think part of it is because the newer generations of newbies have grown up communicating online and they often come across as 'annoyingly precocious'...or 'authoritatively brusk', whatever. They tend to have little patience and they want instant answers. I think in real life if these same people went to a bee club or beekeeping classes they would be in more of a listen/learn mode, less dismissive. The internet does not bring out the best in communication tone.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Very true Omie...the culture has change a bit with the advent of the internet. Having finally realized that I no longer get perturbed when the new folks ask the really basic questions.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

New technology or not Beekeeping as with any activity needs new blood to continue. Of the new wave of beekeepers, keep in mind I only started 5 years ago, I'd say +/-25% will still be doing it actively in 5 years. I'd bet that's how it's always been. 

I know 2 friends who started at the same time as me and they are both "beehavers". When their hives die over the winter they wait for swarms to arrive or buy new packages. They don't change anything about their technique but complain about them dying. Long term I don't think they'll continue beekeeping. Like child rearing advise, I offer no beekeeping advise unless they ask for specific information. I'm not a perfect beekeeper and I know I don't have all the answers anyway.

I've learned from much "old timers" but I've also added to the knowledge out there by looking at things from other angles. If only 5% of every new beekeeper improves and adds to the collective knowledge, beekeeping will continue well past all of us pushing up dasies.


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## Red Bee (Aug 2, 2010)

I have been reading through a few threads now. I like this one but there is one thing that I don't think was said. 

Alot of people wanna get on the trend of making things themselves...ie growing veg gardens, chcikens, little urbans farms on 1/2 acre of land what ever. and some one said early on they jump into not knowing what they are doing or don't do enough reasearch, get stung once what ever and loose interest. everyone is newbie once and some things are trial and error. 

One thing that I am finding out from research is there is alot of ways to skin a cat as afar as bee keeping is concerned and any hobby you get into for that matter. Everyone has there own way of doing things and they are all right and they are all wrong!!!!

but I enjoy the research as well just trying to absorb as much as I can so I can keep my future alive.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Omie said:


> I'm not so sure this has necessarily to do with _new beekeepers_ per se....I see this kind of tone in other forums online about other subjects as well...cycling, music, gardening, etc. I think part of it is because the newer generations of newbies have grown up communicating online and they often come across as 'annoyingly precocious'...or 'authoritatively brusk', whatever. They tend to have little patience and they want instant answers. I think in real life if these same people went to a bee club or beekeeping classes they would be in more of a listen/learn mode, less dismissive. The internet does not bring out the best in communication tone.


Exactly. 

I participate in many internet forums including: home brewing, competitiion BBQ, salt water aquaria, pyrotechnics, RV-ing, and beekeeping. The internet has been a terrific resource in these areas and books dont always provide current coverage of all of the subjects.


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Hampton said:


> Education and mentoring go a long way.
> 
> Stan, Where did you see the 90% decline in feral stock due to CCD? I have not seen that in my removal business and the colony losses in this area due to CCD are very low to almost none. No problem, I was just wondering.


Yeah. You must have gotten that from: 90% of ferals died from varroa when it first arrived 20 or so years ago. CCD mostly effects the commercial guys and not much the hobbyists or feral colonies.

CCD was first noticed only a few ago.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

This thread starts out with a LOT of fearmongering.

It's great for folks to be getting into beekeeping. No, these aren't Grandpa's bees, and you can't manage them like he managed his. Yes, there is a lot to learn, but if you get a mentor you will have someone to 'hold your hand' as you progress.

_I think there's suddenly a lot of unmanaged hives out there. My concern is that these will become a reserve for diseases like AFB. _

Isn't that why we have laws about apiary registrations and government inspectors? We spend ridiculous amounts of tax dollars because of fearmongering about diseases that cost pennies in comparison.

_Wikapedia
"For example, feral honey bee populations in the US have dropped about 90% in the past 50 years, except for the Southwest where they have been replaced by Africanized bees. *At the same time managed honey bee colonies have dropped by about two thirds.*_

How much of this is due to folks being afraid of hard work, and how much of the drop in managed hives is due to diseases/pests etc? 50 years ago, people were not as averse to hard work like they are now. Beekeeping is just like farming - folks retire, and the kids don't want to deal with the hard work so the beekeeping/farming operations get shut down.

I have heard that it takes an equivalent amount of nectar to produce 7-11 pounds of honey as it does to produce a pound of wax. 8 pounds is the number commonly thrown around. I have also heard that bees can draw out 10%-20% new comb per year without significant loss of honey yield. Over 20% new comb being drawn and you start seeing loss of crop.

I hear a lot of beginner beekeepers disputing this. So please explain what I have seen with my own eyes.

Why is it that if you have a yard of 20 honey production hives with drawn comb in the honey supers, on average they can fill a medium with honey in one week.....and 2 miles away with similar bee forage, a yard of 20 cut comb production hives can on average draw out, fill, and cap a shallow super in 1 1/2 to 2 weeks?


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## Bud Dingler (Feb 8, 2008)

the number of swarm calls us old timers get are proportional to the number of new beekeepers in the last year that got started!


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Bud Dingler said:


> the number of swarm calls us old timers get are proportional to the number of new beekeepers in the last year that got started!


NTWF

Now that was funny. :lpf::lpf::lpf:


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## dave28210 (Nov 10, 2008)

Omie said:


> I'm not so sure this has necessarily to do with _new beekeepers_ per se....I see this kind of tone in other forums online about other subjects as well...cycling, music, gardening, etc. I think part of it is because the newer generations of newbies have grown up communicating online and they often come across as 'annoyingly precocious'...or 'authoritatively brusk', whatever. They tend to have little patience and they want instant answers. I think in real life if these same people went to a bee club or beekeeping classes they would be in more of a listen/learn mode, less dismissive. The internet does not bring out the best in communication tone.



The best advice I got in bee school-- "If you ask three beekeepers the same question, you'll get five different opinions; and if you keep bees long enough you'll eventually figure out which one was right." :lpf:


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## dave28210 (Nov 10, 2008)

ok, maybe not the best...but the most memorable for sure. I am a 2nd year beekeeper, but I think the issue with many of us new beeks is the issue of instant gratification. If there's a problem, then one wants a solution NOW. Many younger people (beeks and nonbeeks) are tuned into going online and getting the fix for their problem in minutes. 

So while they may scoff at the old timers, they could learn something from the folks that figured out bees with little or no help over 10, 20, 30 years. Everyone's got an opinion, including me, but I'll listen more to the ones who learned from consistency, trial and error, and practice. 

I was surprised to hear about the "trendyness" of beekeeping in some circles. From a disease control and pest management view, I am not educated enough to comment, but I am concerned. But from a economic viewpoint, I'll be the guy with a fist full of cash ready to buy their old woodenware at bottom dollar when the fad wears off. :thumbsup:

However, the old timers out there were once young bucks and they had to start somewhere. Some will stick with the hobby and some will not. I am not one to judge unless there is a disease or pest issue that arises.


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## Nephidoc (Jan 5, 2009)

Well look what was in the news today!

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=11889862&hl=1

I'm just in my second year. I only have 3 hives. Pulled off 8 gallons of honey last week. I'm having a blast and am so thankful for all your help.

I know I ask dumb questions. I've read a couple of books but your insight seems invaluable to me. I live in a very rural Utah town. I'm the ONLY beek in my town and the only other guy I know raising bees started because I was so excited about it. He's got 3 hives - one a captured swarm of a hive of mine this spring.

Thanks again!

Stan


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## Reid (Dec 3, 2008)

Nephidoc said:


> Wikapedia
> "For example, *feral honey bee populations in the US have dropped about 90%* in the past 50 years, ......"
> 
> I know that is a very generic example but just google 90% feral bees and you'll get about 60K hits.
> ...


I keep seeing that number as well, I just don't believe it. At least not in Western Washington. I've done 10 removal this year from multiple year survivor colonies. The oldest being 5 years. I've collected 3 swarms this year from the same feral colony that this guy says he's been watching in a telephone pole for over 6 years. 
This was a really, really, really swarmy year in my region. Swarms were swarming. Packages were swarming. 
Nature abhors a vacuum and this year the honeybee proved it.

~Reid


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