# Advantech vs pressure treated plywood



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Bkwoodsbees said:


> Has anyone used advantech or pt for hive bodies or Nuc boxes? Good results ?


I have made nucs using Advantec. Also made migratory/feeder tops, and bottoms of bottom boards. Only concern is weight.




















They are heavy, but work like any other nuc, bottom board, or migratory/feeder top.

cchoganjr


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## Brad Bee

Pressure treated plywood is junk. I have used it in some exposed exterior applications and I won't waste my money on anymore of it. 

I do have some hive parts built from Advantch and it's been great. I have not built any migratory lids without cleats though. With cleats yes.


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## Bkwoodsbees

Cleo it is heavy, I was worried about the Dado frame rest. Would it stay together or chip away? Brad ...I haven't seen a need to cleat to advantech lids. My first ones were a test so I did not paint them. They held up well. With no cleats they stack well and only take a short time to make. Prime and paint fast with a roller. I just haven't used the advantech but almost 3 years so was wondering if pt plywood would give me longer service.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

Yes Advantec is heavy, and no, I have not had any problems with the frame rest, dado cuts, or the hand hold cuts chipping away or causing any problems. 

Look at the photos above and you will notice there are no chipouts in the box joints or the hand holds. Unfortunately you can't see the frame rest, but, it is not a problem. 

All problems have a solution, (if you look for it), and if the frame rest did chip or separate, you could cut the frame rest 3/8 deeper, then glue and nail a 3/8 X 3/8 piece of wood on the top of the frame rest to bring it back to bee space, and have a solid piece of wood for the frame rest.

For years I made a lot of equipment using Advantec, because I could get all I wanted for FREE, (my favorite price). I had friends that built houses and apartment buildings and they would save me all the Advantec cut offs that they had. I always had more than I could use.

cchoganjr


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## odfrank

I am the proud owner of a rare Cleo Hogan Versatex shallow super, that at this very moment is in it's second season of grueling field testing. 
You can see it here on top of the pile stored in the extracting room during winter.


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## texanbelchers

I've been wondering his that worked out. Any issues? The cost is a bit steep, unless you get it free...


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## odfrank

texanbelchers said:


> I've been wondering his that worked out. Any issues? The cost is a bit steep, unless you get it free...


Ask me in ten years.


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## AstroBee

You definitely still need to paint Advantech. I have a post somewhere here that shows how it delaminates over time when not painted.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

AstroBee That has not been my experience over the past 10 years or so that I have used Advantec. Never had one delaminate, separate, or any other issue. All my migratory/feeder tops are made with Advantec. Some are painted, most are not. Have lots of Nucs made with Advantec, several bottom boards.

The only time I paint the tops is to make them pretty white. In my brood stock I don't normally paint them.

cchoganjr


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## AstroBee

Cleo,

See this link: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?317769-OSB-Plywood&p=1329813#post1329813

I bought quite a bit of AdvanTech and left some unpainted and some was painted. As you can see in the pictures, the unpainted group that was exposed to the weather suffered badly. I really would like to know how your experience and mine are so different. The stuff I used definitely had the AdvanTech labels, so perhaps something else is at play. Given my experience, I strongly suggest painting any AdvanTech that will be exposed to sun and rain.


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## strummer

Is this wood y'all ar talking about also called partial board ?


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## Phoebee

Not particle board. Advantech is technically what they call Omni-Strand Board (big chips rather than sawdust, pressed together with an adhesive. The difference is, Advantech is made with a different adhesive. If you let ordinary OSB get wet, the wood swells and the stuff gets soft and soggy in a hurry. Advantech is remarkably waterproof. I've had some leftover scraps from a floor project outdoors for years, with no apparent deterioration.

I have not tried hive bodies made with it. I do have a bottom board on a swarm trap made with it, holding up fine.


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## AstroBee

Phoebee said:


> I've had some leftover scraps from a floor project outdoors for years, with no apparent deterioration.



Are these scraps exposed to direct sun and rain? I'd really like to understand why it is that some see no deterioration and I see lots on unpainted samples.


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## Rader Sidetrack

>> Advantech is technically what they call Omni-Strand Board 

The APA (wood panel industry trade group) says that OSB is short for "Oriented" Strand Board. See this page: https://www.apawood.org/osb

[hr] [/hr]

Huber (the Advantech manufacturer) has an interesting short video comparison on water absorption with ordinary OSB vs Advantech here: http://www.huberwood.com/advantech/video/eir97ZS07Yg

My experience is that Advantech stands up to outdoor exposure _much better_ than plain OSB. But I haven't used Advantech for hives yet.


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## Phoebee

AstroBee said:


> Are these scraps exposed to direct sun and rain? I'd really like to understand why it is that some see no deterioration and I see lots on unpainted samples.


I haven't been scientific about the exposure. If I still had access to the Atlas Weatherometer and the Q-Panel QUV machines I could maybe sneak in a test. These are just leftover scraps, usually being used to shim up under stuff. The most exposure is probably the bottom board, which I can't see any deterioration on after two summers.

I can say that ordinary OSB deteriorates quickly with this sort of exposure.

I bought the Advantech at 84 Lumber about 10 years ago. Maybe the formula changed. Or maybe they stuck you with counterfeit material ... it does happen in the construction materials business.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

AstroBee said:


> Cleo, See this link: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?317769-OSB-Plywood&p=1329813#post1329813


Your photos show a different experience than I have had.

For several years I was running 135 to 200 migratory tops that also combine a hole for top feeding using mason jars for selling nucs. I have never had a problem with Advantec. I don't know what makes the difference.











As you can see, these tops are painted, but in the next photo you will see several that are not painted. All have the hole for feeding using a Mason Jar.










These nucs are also painted, 










but this tree trap is not painted. I just have not had a problem, either painted or not painted. Can't explain the difference.










All of my hives and nucs are in full sunshine all day long. Maybe it is a difference in the climate, rainfall, humidity, etc, but, I would think that Kentucky and Virginia would be similar.

cchoganjr


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## AstroBee

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Can't explain the difference.


I can't either, but clearly our experiences are vastly different. Do you over winter with these tops exposed to snow? We're using the same basic product in similar areas, yet very different results - something doesn't compute.


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## Phoebee

Rader Sidetrack said:


> >>Huber (the Advantech manufacturer) has an interesting short video comparison on water absorption with ordinary OSB vs Advantech here: http://www.huberwood.com/advantech/video/eir97ZS07Yg
> 
> My experience is that Advantech stands up to outdoor exposure _much better_ than plain OSB. But I haven't used Advantech for hives yet.


What a simple test! Where's my desiccator jar? Have the vacuum pump.


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## strummer

Thanks I didn't know they have more then one kind of osb .


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

AstroBee said:


> Do you over winter with these tops exposed to snow? .


Not all Winter. I leave the advantec migratory tops on all Summer, make my last inspection in early October, then do not open the hives again until Mid-March. Normally some time around the first of December, i place a telescoping cover over the Advantec migratory top. It gives it extra insulation over the Winter.

Then, in early to mid February, any day that reaches 50 degrees, I remove the telescoping cover, remove the solid Mason Jar lid and pop in a Quart of sugar syrup. Sometimes just this infusion of food is enough to get a hive through the Winter. If it turns cold again,(and normally does in a day or so), I place the solid jar lid in the hole, and put the telescoping cover on again and wait for the next 50 degree day. The Advantec migratory top, with a feeder hole in it, has been the top for me.

cchoganjr


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## Jim_in_PA

AstroBee said:


> Are these scraps exposed to direct sun and rain? I'd really like to understand why it is that some see no deterioration and I see lots on unpainted samples.


Are you seeing actual deterioration or just discoloring from UV exposure?


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## AstroBee

Jim_in_PA said:


> Are you seeing actual deterioration or just discoloring from UV exposure?


 
Follow the link in post 11. I'm seeing delamination (both on the surface and on the edges).


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## AstroBee

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Not all Winter.


Well, that certainly is a difference between how you're running them and what I'm doing. The one shown in my picture was left on all winter and had no other shielding. Perhaps it is the freeze-thaw cycle or wet snow that really eats them up? 

I wrapped the tops of some with aluminum and they are just like the day they went into service.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr

No, that will not explain it either, as the telescoping covers are also made with Advantec and they are not covered with metal. So the telescoping covers, not the migratory covers are on all winter and subject to rain, snow, freeze, thaw.

I don't have any photos of the migratory tops, but I really like Advantec on them because it is very heavy and I don't need a brick to keep them from blowing off.

cchoganjr


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## Jim_in_PA

AstroBee said:


> Follow the link in post 11. I'm seeing delamination (both on the surface and on the edges).


Sorry...I missed that. The photos are what I would expect from "normal" OSB that's left exposed. You would think that this pricier product with the different resins would hold up better...


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

we made 200 advantec migratory lids this year. love them. best lids period for the money. We can make 10 a sheet. In other projects we have done they have lasted a decade and are still being used. 

We paint ours to reduce heat and to protect them. The only thing that can degrade advantech is the sun even if it takes a long time to do it.


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## COAL REAPER

how stable is the advantech with regards to warping? i have coates style nuc boxes that the tops warp something awful. they will curl up one day, down the next. i ended up putting a cinder block on each nuc


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## AstroBee

I'm really not trying to cast AdvanTech in poor light, just trying to share my personal experience with the product. Given what I've read and experienced first hand, I still strongly recommend that you paint AdvanTech prior to putting it into service. I will buy more AdvanTech for tops and bottoms, but next time it will all get painted with a good quality exterior grade latex.



I used the beesource search feature. Seems like others have seem similar issues that I have. Here are a few references:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?266115-Advantech-nuc-cover-test&p=813358#post813358

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?266115-Advantech-nuc-cover-test&p=1352477#post1352477

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?266115-Advantech-nuc-cover-test&p=1352901#post1352901

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?266115-Advantech-nuc-cover-test&p=1354453#post1354453

And from the manufacturer:

See: http://myhuberwood.com/main.aspx?pagename=faqs&faqCategoryId=101

Can I leave AdvanTech panels exposed to the weather?
AdvanTech panels are bonded with a resin system that greatly increases their durability when exposed to weather during construction delays under Exposure 1. However, the panels are not intended for permanent exposure to the weather. AdvanTech, like most other wood products, is susceptible to decay if exposed to long term high moisture conditions. Proper conditioning or ventilation of crawl and attic spaces, as well as correct installation of roof and wall coverings and application of flashing and caulking, will minimize problems due to excessive moisture.


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## Rader Sidetrack

>> but next time it will all get painted with a good quality exterior grade latex.

If you are going to paint Advantech, the manufacturer recommends oil-base paint or at least oil-base primer:


> _Can I paint AdvanTech® subflooring and sheathing panels?
> _AdvanTech panels can be left natural, stained, varnished or painted with oil- or epoxy-based paints, or oil-based primer and latex paint. Water seal is not recommended. AdvanTech panels are not recommended for exterior siding or other applications that are permanently exposed to the weather.
> 
> http://www.huberwood.com/technical-library/1/0?alias=advantech


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## Brad Bee

I have both painted and unpainted Advantech telescoping covers. The ones of mine that are unpainted have become "scaly" but have no signs other than on the surface of any delamination.

Graham, I can attest to Latex paint not sticking well to the Advantech. My tops and bottom boards are both peeling a little. Not terrible, but not perfect either. I used no primer, just painted them with 2-3 coats.


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## Bkwoodsbees

Oil base primer and 2 coats of latex paint works well. I also have some bottom board's in use that I primed and painted and working well.


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## BobsBees

Prime with Kilz 2 first then paint.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/KILZ-Kilz-2-Interior-Latex-Primer-Actual-Net-Contents-640-fl-oz/1088437


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## Rader Sidetrack

I see that Kilz 2 is described on the product page linked above as an INTERIOR primer. 



> KILZ Kilz 2[HIGHLIGHT] Interior[/HIGHLIGHT] Latex Primer (Actual Net Contents: 640-fl oz)


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## BobsBees




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## BobsBees

Also, post#11

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?320330-plywood-tops-and-bottoms


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## Gordon Miller

I buy Advantech damage panels that the tongue is broke etc for 10% of selling price at Lowes. When using I put a 3/4" wood band on exposed edges. I think paint helps give longer life. Warping is not a problem. Works for me.


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## johno

Advantech has a top side and a bottom side, the top side is smoother and seems to be covered with more resin than the other side. They are marked this side up, this is the side that I prime with Kilz then coat again with whatever latex I have at the time. I have lids out for 2 years without any sign of deterioration. The other side does appear to absorb moisture into the top layer of shavings and they tend to swell and can loosen, hence always use the top side to the weather. I started using Advantech for my nuc lids as the 1/2"ply was always warping, Advantech stays flat.
Johno


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## MTN-Bees

Since moving to CA, I've seen a lot of degradation of the migratory lids due to dry rot. All my lids are 1x pine. The biggest problem is warping. I'm considering switching to Advantech lids. My concern is weight. Anyone using 5/8 for 10 frame lids and 1/2 inch for Nuc lids? Is there a big difference in weight from a pine lid to Advantech?


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## johno

In my area I have not seen any Advantech other than 3/4", It is heavier than pine or 1/2" pine but I find I do not have to put a brick onto the cover as I have to do with other covers. It does not warp which is the main reason I started using Advantech, I undercoat and paint with exterior latex all the stuff open to weather. This year I have made about 50 new medium supers using Advantech for the front and back and 5/8" ply for the sides.
Johno


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## MTN-Bees

The company makes different thicknesses of Advantech sheathing 1/2, 5/8, and 3/4 with a straight edge. The question is can you get it locally or not.


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## Fivej

Probably not much of a concern with just using Advantech for a cover, but I would not use it for a box. This is a OSB with formaldehyde and other chemical components which made up the adhesive which necessarily involves off gassing. While Advantech is much lower in off gassing chemicals, I would never use it for a confined, warm space like a beehive with living creatures that make food for human consumption. I certainly would not buy any honey from a beekeeper who used hives made out of it. Sounds like something done in China. Northeastern pine is cheap, easy to work with and if you paint it, lasts for years. My house was built in 1790 and is still standing,


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## Rader Sidetrack

Here is the straight scoop on formaldehyde and Advantech panels: 

http://www.huberwood.com/assets/user/library/Formaldehyde-AdvanTech_and_ZIP.pdf


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## johno

Yes Fivej, for someone who has spent a great deal of time almost up to the armpits in mercury, lead, asbestos and other chemicals like hydrogen sulphide and hydrofluoric acid and soon to be 73 years old I am not going to be much concerned about the damage I could do by using Advantech for the front covers of my new supers.
Johno


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