# Seeking practical advice on Spring honey flow, Northern California?



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Calbee said:


> Any practical advice, please?


Use locally adapted feral bees. Check with other local, treatment free beekeepers to see if their experience is different. Not every area has a strong early spring flow. Add more hives and select and breed for the most productive. Others will likely suggest that you use early stimulative feeding.



> And last, is it a good idea to overwinter a colony on a screened bottom board? It's California, but wouldn't it chill the brood nest?


It is not a good idea because it over ventilates the hive and forces the bees to expend resources to compensate. It won't chill the brood nest because a healthy colony won't let it. They will move the brood nest higher, propolis the screen, or use bees to physically block or fight the ventilation. In the summer, the dense, cool air that the bees have refrigerated by evaporating moisture will fall out the bottom of the hive through the screen. The bees will have to work harder and use more resources to adequately cool the hive.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

I'm in California. I begin feeding sub when the ******** Eucalyptus and Arroyo Willow blooms. In my area this is late December - early January. I don't feed sub in the fall dearth mostly for the practical reason that it makes robbing and ant invasion more difficult. My minimum broodless hives are in late November. Sacramento region is likely about 30 days behind my calendar.

In interior sites, the spring filaree herb (Erodium cicutarium and Erodium moschatum) turn fields pink by March. It is an abundant nectar and pollen (brick red) source in the early spring. 

I spun honey in February, April, and May last year. Hives are wall-to-wall brood in March. It is hard to imagine a hive anywhere in California that is not filled with honey in May.

If you can't make spring honey, consider that your bee pasture (ie your 2 mile neighborhood) is poor, and you must move the location of your apiary.

I only have a subset of hives with screen bottoms, and I keep the screens closed **all** the time. The only exception is long vacations, where otherwise wax moth builds up on the debris. 

I don't find that screen bottoms make an iota of difference in the bee colony health (note I keep the ventilation closed), but do provide a handy way to quickly assess the effects of (unmentionable on this forum) management on the mites.


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## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

I North of you, about a 4 hour drive, and I am still in Calif. I have Screened Bottom Boards, I keep them closed, and my bees have been fine. I gave my 2 'newest' hives, splits from spring, a pollen patty each, and a chunk of lauris sugar brick, in late August. Nothing was blooming, one hive gobbled their pollen patty in no time, and the other just finished theirs about a week ago. The sugar bricks are still there, they are working on them. When winter is on the cusp of arriving, I'll give all the hives a lauris sugar brick, and will probably add a 'Winter Patty' for good measure. I never get any honey in the spring, course I've only harvested twice, the year I first got them, I harvested 7 frames, then the second year, last year I got over 100 pounds. This year maybe 2 frames of cut comb honey, since I split my hives. I wait until August if I do harvest any honey. I run a 2 deep, 1 medium configuration, and in the spring hardly have to feed at all, I put pollen out for them in the early spring till the bloom gets going. Are you in an area where there is a commercial bee yard? I know someone on the board close to a commercial bee yard, and doesn't get much, if any, honey at all because of it.


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## Calbee (Sep 26, 2011)

Thanks for your answer. I am in town, in an established area that is well irrigated. I tend to leave them honey for winter. What I really think is the lack of pollen in Fall that prevents them from raising brood and winter bees. Thus, their population dwindles significantly by January and February.


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## Calbee (Sep 26, 2011)

Thank you so much. I noticed a red eucalyptus variety has bloomed already. My hives are in town, in an well irrigated area. The issue may be the lack of pollen. Accordingly, they cannot raise enough brood and winter bees. I should probably feed them pollen sub. I do not have real pollen which I prefer.


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## Calbee (Sep 26, 2011)

Thank you very much, David.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Any practical advice, please?

To get the Spring honey flow you have to build up the bee population really early on.
Because of our short Spring flow without the early foragers you will miss the flow.
Then for the rest of the summer dearth you will not see much growth in the bee population.
After the 4th years I finally got the hang of it. And controlling the mites will be a big part of
growing your bee population early on. Even though our environment is different managing your
hives is not that hard after you know your bee environment. As others have said they knew when
and how much of a flow either pollen or nectar at certain time of the year especially during the early
Spring time. Then you can prepare your bees for that flow.
What is your management strategy so far for the last 4 years to get more of the Spring honey? Do
you plant or have some room to grow things for your bees going through the early Spring and summer
dearth here?


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## Calbee (Sep 26, 2011)

For about five years, I didn't treat them for mites. I would leave them enough honey for winter. Occasionally, I would feed them sugar syrup. Nothing else. With ample honey stores, I noticed a small bee population would make it. I've never seen lots of mites although I've seen bees with deformed wings. Is this a sign of a serious varoa infestation? Why they don't build up even when they look healthy? Should I make sure they have enough pollen stored for Fall and Winter? Should I start treat for mites maybe? What is best to use for mites? Oxalic acid?
You said it's only now after four years you figured them our. So, do we help them build a strong population early Spring? Thanks again.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Calbee said:


> For about five years, I didn't treat them for mites. I would leave them enough honey for winter. Occasionally, I would feed them sugar syrup. Nothing else. With ample honey stores, I noticed a small bee population would make it. I've never seen lots of mites although I've seen bees with deformed wings. Is this a sign of a serious varoa infestation? Why they don't build up even when they look healthy? Should I make sure they have enough pollen stored for Fall and Winter? Should I start treat for mites maybe? What is best to use for mites? Oxalic acid?
> You said it's only now after four years you figured them our. So, do we help them build a strong population early Spring? Thanks again.


Did they survive for 5 years without any treatments ? Did you have to requeen ? , sorry for more questions than answers.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Stored pollen mostly just hardens in the cells overwinter. For buildup, you need pasture with good pollen sources or you need to feed fresh sub.

If you are not getting buildup in the springtime, you have either 1) hives so impacted by mites they are unthrifty, or 2) poor forage.

I would move some of your bees to a better location, and see if the move doesn't change your spring pattern. Look for a willow thicket along side a ******** patch with a field of spring filaree stretching to the horizon (where a dense stand of buckbrush and manzanita covers the hillside). Yup, that's the landscape you need to fight for.

Take one hive, and put a patty of good sub on it. See if that doesn't make a light-years difference. If they won't take the patty, wait a couple of weeks and try again. 

Hives allocate resources to the production of brood during the expansion phase. If your colony must grow from 3000 bees to 25,000 bees every spring, it will consume all its resources in the production of brood for that expansion. If its brood viability is 50% instead of 90% due to the overhead cost of Varroa, it will take 4 times as long (and 4 times as much pasture) to grow to the point of human surplus honey production. In California, the blooms will be withering on the vine before the colony achieves critical mass.

That street-side red eucalyptus is a curious fall bloom -- I think it makes shake but I don't think the pollen helps buildup. The Australian reference "Fat Bees, Skinny Bees" discusses the issue with Eucalyptus pollen extensively. Many Eucalyptus have unbalanced amino acids, and the bees will starve for protein even with extensive bloom. Unfortunately, cross correlating the few ornamental Euc imports with the main Australian honey crops is not easy -- not much overlap.

I think the "meta-answer" should be obvious -- experiment with the variables to come to a personal solution. This forum collects days (or months) worth of conflicting advice from all over the world presented by folks with 0 to 60 years experience with bees. The answer however lies in the experiments you run yourself.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

> The answer however lies in the experiments you run yourself.


Listen to good advice, then think through what you want for an outcome and make your own decision.

I don't live in your climate, but I do live in a climate where it is important to get bees ready for spring flows in 8 weeks. 1.25 inch wide end bars will shave 2 weeks off the normal buildup cycle in spring. Using 4.9 or 5.1 foundation will also speed up the spring buildup. Think through this and you will see that 1.25 end bars spreads a cluster out to cover more comb area in the spring and closer cell spacing means the cluster can cover more brood cells with a given number of adult bees. This can make a major difference for early spring flows.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Spring honey is tough to balance here Calbee. The main issue is our Spring flow is too short for the most part. The bees will start putting up Nectar with a strong population but before it's ready to get capped, the flow ends in mid to late April and the bees then need to consume everything for summer build up into June and July. Some areas in Sacramento can do well, but for the most part, I've seen very poor honey production here, even within the city where you think it would be better.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I would like to give you my 4 years of local bee experience and mite mgmt & infos should you need it.
After consulting with co-worker engineer chemist and experienced production technician I've come up with a way to mass produce the oac (oxalis acid crystals) for the mite issue. Now you don't have to carry the heavy battery or even buy a mite oav unit anymore. Working on an apparatus to refine them now. Send me a PM to discuss.


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