# Caucasian



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I am interested in them too for another reason, I read where they forage in cooler and wetter weather than Italians do. I could surely appreciate a bee like that, with the weather we have up here in Michigan.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

I too am interested in caucasians, and will probably end up ordering some of the old world stock imported through the WSU breeding program in the coming years.

However, as noljohn stated, they are reputed to build up slowly, which is far from ideal for blueberry pollination.

Secondly, I suspect that a lot of the studies cited that compare the different species are probably old and probably used either feral or otherwise old world strains, in other words, bees that were not submitted to heavy selection pressure by commercial breeders in North-America. Caucasica probably is more winter-hardy than italian ligustica. Is it more winter-hardy than the ligustica mutts bred in northern North-America, though? I'm not convinced. I'm sure the caucasica has a lot of potential, but I also suspect that it will take a proper breeding program to make it an interesting commercial strain.


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## Sharpbees (Jun 26, 2012)

Caucasian do have longer tongues, they are huge propolis gatherers. They will actually build their own entrance reducers with propolis. That's why they are very seldom used by most beekeepers.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I won't touch them with a 20 ft pole. Had them years ago and found all the good and all the bad about them. The excessive propolis collection is by far the worst trait I have ever seen in a bee. They do not make a honey crop in area with spring flows. They are not adapted to my area.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

They are hard to find these days. It's a bit frustrating when you try to let go of a frame and it won't come out of your hand beause it's stuck...


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

There's good money in propolis.:banana:


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We used to run lots of them purchased from Howard Weavers down in Texas years ago but havent seen anyone marketing them in quite some time. I felt they were pretty good bees just loved to propolize. There was always this story that they could work red clover because of a longer probiscus. I had whole yards of them next to such fields in Minnesota and never saw a bee on one or anything which I felt was a flow from it. While there may well be something to their having longer "tongues" I put the notion that they are uniquely suited to working red clover as nothing more than a beekeeping myth.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

In general I like bees to propolize. I'd put up with Caucasians if I had them partly because I think it's good for the bees to propolize, but it is frustrating when you can't let go of things because of that "flypaper" propolis the put on everything...


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

Don't know where you'd get the Caucasian strain. York bee company in Jesup Ga. ( twenty five miles from me ) had Midnites that were Caucasian/Carniolan crosses, so they must have kept pure Caucasians, they changed to H&R bee company in 2005, I don't think they carry those anymore.
Someone did keep about a hundred hives of Midnites about a mile from where I live. When I moved here and captured ferals to start my present strain, most had the coloring of midnites. Some of the colonies propolized like crazy. Some colonies exploded in the spring and some didn't build up until mid summer. I sure wouldn't want pure Caucasians, but the Midnite ferals sure added some good traits to my bees ( JMO ) like MB I like a bee that propolizs readily, just don't want to use a crowbar to remove the frames.


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## Edymnion (May 30, 2013)

noljohn said:


> I read some old threads on caucasians. Has anyone had any recent experience with them? I have a friend that wants me to pollinate his blueberries. Sounds like these might do well at that because their tongue is longer. My concern is they are slow to build up in the spring and blueberries are early bloomers. Any info would be appreciated.


I'm sorry, I have having a hard time stifling the juvenile giggling over this.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I don't believe their tongues are that much longer to make much of a difference. That being said, I made a sort of a statement that I would lay out for a WSU Caucasian breeder queen next year if I landed a job soon and it seems I have.... She'll be shipped to another Beesource member for daughter queen production but if there's a fair amount of interest I could do it this year if people want to try queens. The only issue is, WSU doesn't ship out until July or even August, but now that I'm saying that it would make sense to get her sooner to have queens available next spring. If you're really interested in trying some daughter queens, send me a pm or post in this thread and it'll happen this year for sure.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Would the tongue length make a difference? Hard to say. Bee size might make even more of a difference, if a smaller head allows them to stick it deeper within the flower. A longer tongue probably doesn't hurt, though.

I'm seriously considering going out with a vernier scale in blueberry fields to look up flower sizes, and try to determine if flower size impacts foraging behavior.

It's a hypothesis worth testing. Longer tongues for the sake of longer tongues probably isn't worth it, but if blueberry pollination is important to a beekeeper, it'd probably be good to know if tongue length affects that activity.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

JRG13 said:


> I don't believe their tongues are that much longer to make much of a difference. That being said, I made a sort of a statement that I would lay out for a WSU Caucasian breeder queen next year if I landed a job soon and it seems I have.... She'll be shipped to another Beesource member for daughter queen production but if there's a fair amount of interest I could do it this year if people want to try queens. The only issue is, WSU doesn't ship out until July or even August, but now that I'm saying that it would make sense to get her sooner to have queens available next spring. If you're really interested in trying some daughter queens, send me a pm or post in this thread and it'll happen this year for sure.


If anyone buys these queens and exports queens to Canada, send me a private message. Some daughter queens would interest me.


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## noljohn (Jan 9, 2013)

Dominic
From what I've read Caucasian bees have the longest probiscus of any honeybee. I've also read that bumblebees are better pollinators of blueberries than honeybees are because they have longer probiscus. Thats the reason why I'm interested in Caucasians to begin with. I was hoping that some commercial beeks or some of the old timers on here might have some experience with this already. Being a first year beek I can use the help.


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## thomas (Apr 23, 2006)

Hello jrg13 just sent you a pm on your queens very interested.


Thomas Yancey


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## treeWinder (May 3, 2013)

Sharpbees said:


> Caucasian do have longer tongues, they are huge propolis gatherers. They will actually build their own entrance reducers with propolis. That's why they are very seldom used by most beekeepers.


Sharp, you are quite correct in that they will reduce their own entrances. One of ours compared to one of our Italians TBHs entrances.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

noljohn said:


> Dominic
> From what I've read Caucasian bees have the longest probiscus of any honeybee. I've also read that bumblebees are better pollinators of blueberries than honeybees are because they have longer probiscus. Thats the reason why I'm interested in Caucasians to begin with. I was hoping that some commercial beeks or some of the old timers on here might have some experience with this already. Being a first year beek I can use the help.


Bumblebees, as individuals, are better pollinators for a number of reasons. The proboscis length is but one factor out of many. However, bumblebee colonies top at about 500 individuals, and only forage out for about 500m I believe. I've also had some mitigated blueberry grower feedback on their worth, due to the fact that they are not managed. If I were a blueberry producer, I would absolutely put a few bumblebee colonies in my production, but just as a failsafe, because honeybees are way more cost-effective. Heck, down the road, I'm considering raising bumblebees myself to stack on as a package bonus for hive rentals.



treeWinder said:


> Sharp, you are quite correct in that they will reduce their own entrances. One of ours compared to one of our Italians TBHs entrances.


Free mouse guard! That's amazing. The more time passes, the more I'm inclined to believe that some of our practices are more of a stress to our colonies than a boon, and that extra-wide bottom entrance is one of them.

Also read an article recently in Apidologie about how propolis use increased brood viability and worker lifespan, while lines bred for low propolis use had more brood mortality and lower lifespans. Sure, gummy is messy, but if it makes the colony more productive...? And with the price of propolis on the markets...


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## treeWinder (May 3, 2013)

Dominic;1060636 said:


> Dominic,
> With them it sure seems they don't need much entrance space or additional ventilation holes we think they need.. Here is the same TBH and they blocked the holes.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

treeWinder said:


> Dominic,
> With them it sure seems they don't need much entrance space or additional ventilation holes we think they need.. Here is the same TBH and they blocked the holes.


Have you noticed them unplugging the holes or the entrance at certain times in the year, when the weather justifies it, or do they permanently keep it all to a strict minimum no matter what?


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## honeydrunkapiaries (Oct 16, 2013)

Dominic said:


> If anyone buys these queens and exports queens to Canada, send me a private message. Some daughter queens would interest me.


If you manage to get some imported I would certainly be interested!


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## treeWinder (May 3, 2013)

Dominic said:


> Have you noticed them unplugging the holes or the entrance at certain times in the year, when the weather justifies it, or do they permanently keep it all to a strict minimum no matter what?


In this one they closed up end of October, (reduced or sealed all) we had had some early cold nights when I noticed it. Summer all openings, front entrance, 2 front 1" holes, and 3 - 1" holes in back all open. The pics above were taken today 30 degrees. Suppose to warm up this week to 50-60 during days. I expect to see some activity.


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## Mr. Buzzy Bee (May 22, 2013)

Hi

I prefer Carniolan bees over Italians. They also have a longer tongue but don't propolize everything like Caucasians. They are gentle and produce nice honey. They also rise early and forage out late more than any bee. I would recommend them, but that is my opinion. Hope you everything works out.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

I spoke with Sue Cobey today about the propolis tendency. She said they gather a lot in the fall in prep for the cold and if there there is yellow jacket predation. 

They should be good at keeping beetles out to.

Any current prices on propolis?


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

JBJ said:


> I spoke with Sue Cobey today about the propolis tendency. She said they gather a lot in the fall in prep for the cold and if there there is yellow jacket predation.
> 
> They should be good at keeping beetles out to.
> 
> Any current prices on propolis?


They adapt their propolis use according to need? I think I'm falling in love with this bee. I did have serious yellow jacket problems with some hives last fall, too... Slow spring buildup is a total bummer, though. Does anyone know how well the midnight hybrids fared regarding spring buildup and swarming?

As for propolis, local average in 2012 771,16$/kg, about 100x the price of honey. Sometimes I wonder why we even bother with honey at all?


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

The slow buildup is essentially a management issue. They tend to be frugal when there is no protein/pollen coming in, preferring to time brood rearing for solid flows. Pretty smart really.

If you need bees early... take the appropriate stimulative measures earlier than that. Of course there are limits to what you can do when, but if you can convince them "it's on" for real they will respond appropriately. Not unlike Carni's or Russians in that regard.

Was that a wholesale or retail price for propolis?


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

JBJ said:


> The slow buildup is essentially a management issue. They tend to be frugal when there is no protein/pollen coming in, preferring to time brood rearing for solid flows. Pretty smart really.
> 
> If you need bees early... take the appropriate stimulative measures earlier than that. Of course there are limits to what you can do when, but if you can convince them "it's on" for real they will respond appropriately. Not unlike Carni's or Russians in that regard.
> 
> Was that a wholesale or retail price for propolis?


Carnies are said not to breed much when resources are low, yet to have a great spring buildup. What's the deal?

As for propolis price, it's from: http://www.stat.gouv.qc.ca/statistiques/agriculture/apiculture-miel/h6_2012.htm. It's an average. That data comes from the yearly census to registered beekeepers, as far as I can tell, so it doesn't include propolis trade from non-beeks.

It would seem beekeepers sell twice as much as they produce in the province.


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## Ferdi (Feb 8, 2013)

Here in Turkey you can order Caucasian from any supplier because It is native race of the northeast part of Turkey. So we have a lot of experience with this kind... I can say that all downsides mentioned here are generally true. They are really successful in their own habitat but they have adaptation problem in different areas. They like rainy, high hills.


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## treeWinder (May 3, 2013)

Nothing new to update on them opening the entrance or holes. However they do gather in cooler weather. Today's high was 46 degrees, very cloudy and windy. Noticed them at 42 degrees returning with lots of pollen and expect some early nectar.


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## Goran (Oct 27, 2012)

Dominic said:


> They adapt their propolis use according to need? I think I'm falling in love with this bee. I did have serious yellow jacket problems with some hives last fall, too... Slow spring buildup is a total bummer, though. Does anyone know how well the midnight hybrids fared regarding spring buildup and swarming?
> 
> As for propolis, local average in 2012 771,16$/kg, about 100x the price of honey. Sometimes I wonder why we even bother with honey at all?



Propolis price, what a difference.. Here they pay to us around 70, maybe 80 euros per kg.. If that price is right.. Little to say huge difference..
About carnies and propolis.. Not all the same, some more propolise, some less. But as all the bees more in late summer as prep for winter, and early spring also. 
For caucasian I heard they tend to go out from the hive in unfavourable weather and lose more bees cause of that risky habit ( but also carnies can get losses in spring when still weather is unsettled and sometimes lot of bees with pollen can find around a hives when they got cold and die).


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## kyell (Feb 3, 2012)

Edymnion said:


> I'm sorry, I have having a hard time stifling the juvenile giggling over this.


I have read the original post over and over, but I still don't see the joke. Edymnion, could you share the funny part? Is it the longer tongue part or the friend wants me to pollinate his blueberries part?


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

I have 4 caucasian queens coming in June, which I hope to make up some nucs with for winter, which is the trait I'm intrested in. I'm not sure if I'll hate the propalus issue though,,,, I hope to keep them somewhat isolated to keep them causians....we'll see 

==McBee7==


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

What is the advantage of the CC bees other than the heavy load of propolis to harvest?
Do they make more honey because of their longer tongue? I mean why keep them in your
location?


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