# What factor bears greater on making the queen lay? Longer hours of sunlight or...



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

your sense of connection and relationship may be strained here.

I would suspect that yes there is a relationship between temperature and daylight hous to the queens laying capacity. Pehaps a more direct relationship (which would be functionally hinged on the two variable you suggest) would be how much the worker bees feed the queen. the more she is fed the more she lays.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

fatscher said:


> ... warmer temps?
> 
> Is there any empirical evidence?


Now fatscher, don't start putting sun lamps in front of your hives, as an attempt to lenghten and warm the days so your queens are laying earlier and more often.

Don't mess w/ Mother Nature.


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

I don't know that I've seen much research on what the factors are, but I suspect it's a lot more complicated than would be easy to check on. Genetics and race, environment, colony needs, colony resources, on and on. When we can ask the queen herself, we'll know .


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

Indoor wintered bees don't raise any brood(pitch dark) until they are placed outside. No matter how cold it is outside they start raising some brood just after the winter solstice.


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

tecumseh said:


> your sense of connection and relationship may be strained here.


How so, tecump?opcorn:



tecumseh said:


> ...Pehaps a more direct relationship... ...would be how much the worker bees feed the queen. the more she is fed the more she lays.


Now that, I'll buy. Adamf says it's more likely connected to hypopharangeal (sp?) gland development, due to pollen sources



sqkcrk said:


> Now fatscher, don't start putting sun lamps in front of your hives, as an attempt to lenghten and warm the days so your queens are laying earlier and more often.
> 
> Don't mess w/ Mother Nature.


Now, I would've never thought of that excellent idea had you not mentioned it! Gotta try that someday... ...NOT!:applause:

The reason for my question is this issue is being explored by some of us here in Northern Virginia who are experimenting with overwintering nucs---efforts funded by a SARE grant we've been given by dear old Uncle Sugar (thank you Joe Schmoe taxpayer) to promote sustaining agriculture.

As we approach spring, the dillemma for us is when do you transfer (or sell) the nucs to a 10 frame hive (or beekeeper customer), to:

1. Prevent the nuc colony from freezing in cold, early spring temps, yet...
2. Prevent the nuc colony from overcrowding in the box and swarm?

Some argue that it is the length of daylight which spurns on the queen to lay, expanding the brood/colony size. Others argue it is the noticeable shift toward warmer weather that prompts the queen to lay, expanding the brood/colony size.

Laying chickens lay more eggs with longer hours of daylight, do queen bees?:lpf:

I'm leaning toward what Adam has told me as the right answer (see my reply to tecumseh)


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Food resources coming in will definitely get a queen working. This happens to usually occur when days are long and warm enough to support the requisite blooms. Which came first the chicken or the egg? 

There seems to be a minimum protein and carb requirement coming in or stored on the comb to spur some lines to brood. Other lines seen to never know when to quit. Protein in the diets definitely ties in to gland development and vitogellin levels.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I vote for the length of daylight hours, and whether they are getting longer or shorter over time. A good read that delves into this matter is:
Beesex Essentials by Lawrence Conner, and can be purchased at the online bookstore at: 
www.wicwas.com


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

I think its resources coming into the hive is what causes a queen to lay, which flower's depend on temps which is in relation to day light hours, its all connected but the thing that get's a queen laying would have to be a flow coming into the hive, look at the Russians queens they start and shut down because of a flow or dearth, why do we feed in early spring to get the queen laying and have a large hive in time for pollination or the main honey flow. if you think about it we all kinda know the answer.... if you look at it my way!!


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

fatcher writes:
Now that, I'll buy. Adamf says it's more likely connected to hypopharangeal (sp?) gland development, due to pollen sources

tecumseh:
well adamf (as I have admitted on other threads) is a much better bioliogist than myself. when I use the word strained (previously) I meant that sometimes you can see what appears to be a connection (and there is some casual relationship playing itself out) it is just the the relationship is indirect and does not indicate cause.

dcross observation if true (I for one have never overwintered bees in a shed or enclosure) would suggest that the bees themselves have some notion of time. I would suspect that dcross observation MIGHT not ABSOLUTELY hold for all strains of bees....


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

In the Fingerlakes region of upstate New York, Queens start laying the 3rd. week of January. This is often during some of the coldest times of the year. I expect like chickens and other animals, the breeding season has as much to do with hours of sunlight as anything.

Just my opinion!


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## Natalie (Jan 14, 2009)

I don't know what is accurate or not when it comes to daylight hours relating to bees, but I do know that chickens need a certain amount of daylight hours to lay or they slow down or quit laying completely.
The optimal amount for them is 14 hours of daylight but some will still lay with less but not a whole lot less.
There are some chicken farmers that put artificial light in the coops to keep them laying.
Just an observation here, not sure if it means anything with the bees at all but since someone mentioned it I threw it out there.
The feeding makes sense with the bees though.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Definitely a little of both as indicated by how much sooner a hive in the deep south is full of brood than one in the North, but they never start until the days get longer and they won't start if you put them in artificial darkness until they get some light as indicated by all of the records from people overwintering them in dark cellars.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Michael Bush said:


> but they never start until the days get longer and they won't start if you put them in artificial darkness until they get some light as indicated by all of the records from people overwintering them in dark cellars.


Absolutely, though I often wondered if part of the equation was fresh pollen coming in. In my own records, a little brood is kicked off in late January once we get some warm weather. On warm days in February, a few random hive inspections show small patches of brood, but once we get past March 15th, and the maples/willows start blooming...watch out!

I think it's both and have often wondered how to this cellaring would work in Missouri.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Joel said:


> In the Fingerlakes region of upstate New York, Queens start laying the 3rd. week of January. This is often during some of the coldest times of the year.


I can't remember where I read it. It was years ago...maybe HHB. The theory is that during the coldest part of the winter, the clusters are tighter, elevating the core temperature in the broodnest, and initiating brood rearing. Believable, I guess.


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> Definitely a little of both as indicated by how much sooner a hive in the deep south is full of brood than one in the North, but they never start until the days get longer and they won't start if you put them in artificial darkness until they get some light as indicated by all of the records from people overwintering them in dark cellars.


I don't know if anyone has done this, but the question could be addressed by feeding colonies in darkness and increasing day length while cooling colonies. The question is very interesting, but not practical as food, day length and temperatures all seem to go together. Stimulative feeding for instance, only seems to work for me when temps and day length are rapidly increasing.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Mean weight of eggs, as influenced by rate of production and other factors,*

Here is some more information:
Abstract:

Mean weight of eggs, as influenced by rate of production and other factors, both genetic and environmental, was examined in 8 hybrid lines of honey bees, Apis mellifcni L., by an experimental design in which bees were divided into 4 Latin square groups. Eggs laid by each queen within a group for a 6-hr period were collected once each week during an 8-week period. Eggs were weighed and their numbers recorded. These data confirmed our earlier conclusion that egg weight is heritable and that the rate of production is also in part genetically determined. In addition, the data showed that environniental factors also contributed significantly to weight variance. 
Document Type: Research article 


The full text electronic article is available for purchase. You will be able to download the full text electronic article after payment. 

$25.00 plus tax 
Ernie


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Seasonal Cycles of Activities in Honey Bee Colonies*

Here is some data:
http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/bkCD/HBBiology/seasonal_activit.htm
1Research entomologist, Science and Education Administration, Carl Hayden Center for Bee Research, Tuscon, Ariz. 85719.

The queen stays within the cluster and moves with it as it shifts position. *Colonies that are well supplied with honey and pollen in the fall will begin to stimulatively feed the queen, and she begins egg laying during late December or early January-even in northern areas of the United States. *This new brood aids in replacing the bees that have died during the winter. The extent of early brood rearing is determined by pollen stores gathered during the previous fall. In colonies with a lack of pollen, brood rearing is delayed until fresh pollen is collected from spring flowers, and these colonies usually emerge from winter with reduced populations. The colony population during the winter usually decreases because old bees continue to die; however, colonies with plenty of young bees produced during the fall and an ample supply of pollen and honey for winter usually have a strong population in the spring.



Spring Activity
During early spring, the lengthening days and new sources of pollen and nectar stimulate brood rearing. The bees also gather water to regulate temperature and to liquefy thick or granulated honey in the preparation of brood food. Drones will be absent or scarce at this time of the year.

Later in the spring, the population of the colony expands rapidly and the proportion of young bees increases. As the population increases, the field-worker force also increases. Field bees may collect nectar and pollen in greater amounts than are needed to maintain brood rearing, and surpluses of honey or pollen may accumulate).

*As the days lengthen and the temperature continues to increase, *the cluster expands further and drones are produced. With an increase in brood rearing and the accompanymg increase in adult bees, the nest area of the colony becomes crowded. More bees are evident at the entrance of the nest. A telltale sign of overcrowding is to see the bees crawl out and hang in a cluster around the en trance on a warm afternoon.

Combined with crowded conditions, the queen also increases drone egg laying in preparing for the natural division of the colony by swarming. In addition to rearing workers and drones, the bees also prepare to rear a new queen. A few larvae that would normally develop into worker bees are fed a special gland food called royal jelly, their cells are reconstructed to accommodate the larger queen, and her rate of development is speeded up. The number of queen cells produced varies with races and strains of bees as well as individual colonies.

Regardless of its crowded condition, the colony will try to expand by building new combs if food and room are available. These new combs are generally used for the storage of honey, whereas the older combs are used for pollen storage and brood rearing.
Ernie


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## Aram (May 9, 2006)

Every year my children watch to see if the chickens laid the first egg on Christmas day. They had for a couple of years. That's just four days of daylight increasing instead of decreasing. January is the coldest time of year, temps stay below freezing for weeks. I would think any bee leaving the safety of the cluster to check on sunrise and set times would never make it back to tell about it. I'm a bit in the dark on how do the bees know day length. :s


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