# Unwritten rules for competing against peers



## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

My take is that's just the way people are. An apple grower told me once, if the guy down the road is 5 cent's cheaper, go down and look and there will be all your customers.
I don't compete against my friends, and will through customers there way if in there area, but as everything money talks. hope the nucs are working out, heard the weather isn't the best down there.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Papar, focus on QUALITY. Whether it's nucs or sub ect... Make quality products, the rest will follow into place.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Papar, focus on QUALITY. Whether it's nucs or sub ect... Make quality products, the rest will follow into place.


:thumbsup:


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## LSPender (Nov 16, 2004)

what does unwritten rule mean? 
Business is business, He or she that produces a value for a customer base will be profitable, those who wine and wonder about rules get left behind! As in real estate the 3 rules are location, location, location, translates into the only 3 rules of business Sell, Sell, Sell.
their are 330 million people is the USA and not enough honey is produced in this country, the value of locally produced honey is huge, raise your price and make some money with it.


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## Wisnewbee (Apr 8, 2011)

I've been in sales as a profession for many years. Price is usually not the number one reason a customer purchases from you. Price is usually number 3 or 4 on the list. For a small percentage of customers it is all about price and have no brand loyalty. I sell products that are usually the most expensive. I find that being the most expensive is actually an advantage to me most of the time. I don't want the bottom feeders that only shop price. Value added is where the market is really at. 2 products that are basically the same, the product that the customer perceives is the best value will get the purchase. How is your product Nuc, package, or honey) a better value? Most of the time it's about the *service* before, during, and after the sale. Do you follow up after the sale? Never expect a customer to keep buying from you. When you do, you're dead. Know the competition, and their products. Compare 2 Nucs; Both are $125, 5 frames, cardboard Nuc box, new queen, and busting with bees and brood. If 1 has frames drawn out last year, and the other has brood frames that look like they're 10 years old, which would you purchase? I'm not saying you do this! I'm just giving an example. Position yourself such that the customer perceives that you are giving a product that has superior value. Get out there and work for those customers or your competition will. Write down what your strenghts and weaknesses are. What are the strenghts and weaknesses of your competition? Sell your strenghts.

Wisnewbee


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## Wisnewbee (Apr 8, 2011)

Take a look at people who are successful. They never pass up an opportunity to plug their product of service. There is a guy on here that does that all the time. Keith Jarret does a terrific job of promoting his product, Nutra Bee. He has done such a good job, I wish I was big enough to buy it. Why, because he has done the work to promote the product as the best on the market. How much does it cost? Don't know, don't really care. The best costs, so I'm already expecting to pay a little more. That's value added.

Wisnewbee


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Amen Wisnewbee, preach it. Quality,price and service. Do you wanna be Neiman Marcus or Walmart?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

It woudl be nice if you could just pick what you want and that woudl mean success. It is called competition and i suggest you do what will cause you to come out the winner. that means finding out what the customer wants and provide that. if it is better price. than produce lower cost nucs. if it is quality then produce better quality nuc. and if it is volume then produce volume. There is a saying. there is quality quantity and price. you can pick two. And that is very true.

You want a hobby. you can pick what you want to do. you want a business you better do what your customer wants.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

If your sales are based solely or significantly on low price, you are in a "race to the bottom"....which means you will keep lowering your price, your competition will keep lowering their price...until you hit bottom. Unless your volume is increasing a lot (like, exponentially), this is not a long term profitable race to be in. I'd come up with some way to differentiate what you are doing vs the competition...and perhaps raise your prices.

But, unwritten rules? Keep confidential information confidential. Don't lie. I'm not sure what other "rules" are worth worrying about.

deknow


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## Sharpbees (Jun 26, 2012)

There is a long time beek just up the road from me. He sells way cheaper than I do but I still sell out every year. Granted I'm not keeping 200 hives like he does but I still managed to sell 500 lbs. this year at an average price of $9.00 /lb after packaging cost. So don't fret over the competition, try to make your packaging different from theirs and set your price at a level that is profitable for you. People will buy what they perceive to be of better quality and value. Better value doesn't necessarily mean cheaper price, it means the customer feels they are getting a better product for the price. When I sell out I send people to this fellow, yet when I extract and put my signs out or set up I still get return customers that I have sent to him.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Are you in business to make profit or to make friends? The other folks who are in business to make profit won't take it personal like those who are in it to make friends will.


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## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

Excellent advice from everyone. Thank you.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Do you ever watch "Your Business" on MSNBC? It can be informative. Have you ever taken a Small Business Course at your local College? Give it some thought. You might be glad you did.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

my brother in law is in upper management in a large package delivery service. I will always remember one thing he said when I told him Walmart moved into a near by community, and which I commented on how Walmart would hurt the local busineses. 

He said there is nothing better for business than competition. Keeps the businesses striving for market share and will attract more consumers into an area market. He was right.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I hate to say it, but when customers go somewhere else, it means they've found better value for their $$ typically. I would check out what the competition is selling that's making it more attractive then what you're selling. What other said too, communication is key, talk to your customers, follow up and see how satisfied they are and be willing to take some criticism and improve your products/services.


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## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

I have a feeling that some of my customers who might be getting nucs elsewhere, will eventually come back. I have alway provided quality and good service.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Should I be upset they didn't notify me or is this just the way people are?

You should never be upset. It will only cause stress and harm you health and shorten your life. Not everyone sees things the same way.

A lot of good advice on quality vs price etc. and I agree. Better to have a quality product that is priced at what it is worth rather than the cheapest price. I've never seen the point of trying to compete on price. You only hurt yourself and your quality when you do.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

papar said:


> I have a feeling that some of my customers who might be getting nucs elsewhere, will eventually come back. I have alway provided quality and good service.


All we can do is provide top notch service and the best product we can.


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## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

I have heard of so many beekeepers that have lost hives this year. Some feel the cause was poor nutrition in 2012. I am certain anyone starting a nuc last year and didn't provide supplimental feed might have a dead hive this year. Some will blame the producer but I guess that's part of the learning process.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

I see a guy lose almost his entire operation due to what I believe poor nutrition. Very hot and dry, and the bees brought in little nectar and no pollen. He lost hundreds of colonies one winter. Now that is a learning experience. It would be easy to blame the producer but producer has little to do with it less the colony crapped out in the first month. It's mostly the beekeeper. They need to pay attention and be prudent in keeping their bees. I guess thats what really divides the beekeepers from those who keep bees.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

BMAC said:


> I see a guy lose almost his entire operation due to what I believe poor nutrition. It's mostly the beekeeper. They need to pay attention and be prudent in keeping their bees. I guess thats what really divides the beekeepers from those who keep bees.


BMAC, very well said, we call them bee haulers or box haulers. It's a sad seen out here in Cali almost every year, Febuary comes and there is a grave yard of empty boxes from one end of the valley to the other.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Keith Jarrett said:


> BMAC, very well said, we call them bee haulers or box haulers. It's a sad seen out here in Cali almost every year, Febuary comes and there is a grave yard of empty boxes from one end of the valley to the other.


Do you have any particular products or methods that the "box haulers" could use to make sure those hives come through almonds strong?:scratch:


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Keith will likely say something about Nutra-Bee, but I'll let him do that. Feeding bees is definitely a key to keeping hives strong especially in a drought year. We have been feeding out local bees for the past 2 years as it has been incredibly cool and wet during spring and our main flow. When summer rolls around the main flow is over and we are in a dearth. The only way to keep bees healthy and populous is to feed, feed and feed syrup and patties. It really is not that hard to see and figure out. The challenging part is to pay those bills. You'll need a good $ if you want to provide good bees.

Jean-Marc


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Mbeck said:


> Do you have any particular products or methods to make sure those hives come through almonds strong?:scratch:


MBeck, JM petty much nailed it, I talk to a guy named Dave M from your state of FL today and we both agreed that if you don't feedem heavy in the fall your asking for your luck to run out. I have never lost more than 5-7% over winter for the last 20 years, MBeck there got to be reason for that. Also good old fashion beekeeping applies as well, good queens, good combs, good TIMING with mites & feed.
Good luck to all.... But really luck has nothing to do with it.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I'm still learning but a very high percentage of beekeeping seems to be nutrition and mite control. If I figure that out I feel like I have a good shot at success. 

There is a Dave M guy south of here that I saw down here putting hives in pepper....cheap feed!
Must be a different guy I think he's from New England or maybe California.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Mbeck said:


> If I figure that out I feel like I have a good shot at success.


MBeck, with your outlook on things, me thinks you will do just fine an bee successful.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mbeck said:


> There is a Dave M guy south of here that I saw down here putting hives in pepper....cheap feed!
> Must be a different guy I think he's from New England or maybe California.


W/ all the hives he runs he's everywhere. If you are refering to the person I think you may be refering to.


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## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

Sounds to me like, with mite treatments a beekeeper has to realize the impact on a queen and be proactive in replacing her after so many treatments. When I look at my situation, I don't feel nutrition was the issue. What I noticed were queens failing about the same time, the constants seem to be mating conditions and mite treatments


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

What did you treat with Ron?

Its my understanding Formic is very hard on queens as is Oxlic.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

BMAC said:


> What did you treat with Ron?
> 
> Its my understanding Formic is very hard on queens as is Oxlic.


from a different thread he treated with MAQS one pad, once in Oct, once in Jan(temp 70 degrees). every time I decide I'm going to try MAQS someone I know has a problem with them. I'm guessing that the hives must have had brood in S.C. in Jan but if the MAQS took out the queens, there were no droans around for them?


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## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

wildbranch2007 said:


> from a different thread he treated with MAQS one pad, once in Oct, once in Jan(temp 70 degrees). every time I decide I'm going to try MAQS someone I know has a problem with them. I'm guessing that the hives must have had brood in S.C. in Jan but if the MAQS took out the queens, there were no droans around for them?


That's the part that is a mystery to me, I did see drone brood in mid-Jan when I treated. I also did not see signs that they tried to raise a new queen


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

BMAC said:


> What did you treat with Ron?
> 
> Its my understanding Formic is very hard on queens as is Oxlic.


What is the source for your concern with OA on Queen Bees? I am interested in any information you have on this.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

papar said:


> That's the part that is a mystery to me, I did see drone brood in mid-Jan when I treated. I also did not see signs that they tried to raise a new queen


I see from NOD site the suggest 2 treatments. I wonder if 2 treatments was too much for the queens. Didn't someone here or on another site say count for 40 percent loss of queens while using Formic acid?

Maybe a second treatment should be done with softer.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Daniel Y said:


> What is the source for your concern with OA on Queen Bees? I am interested in any information you have on this.


It my understanding OA causes damage to internal organs of bees. No a big deal for a worker that only lives a few weeks, larger deal for the queen. However possible big deal if treated more than once. Randy Oliver has a great article on mite control.


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## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

BMAC said:


> I see from NOD site the suggest 2 treatments. I wonder if 2 treatments was too much for the queens. Didn't someone here or on another site say count for 40 percent loss of queens while using Formic acid?
> 
> Maybe a second treatment should be done with softer.


This is the second year I've been using the MQS and never noticed any queen issues the first year, that's what I liked about it.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

BMAC said:


> It my understanding OA causes damage to internal organs of bees. No a big deal for a worker that only lives a few weeks, larger deal for the queen.


I believe that is for drench, not vapor.


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

isn't vaporizing equally hard on beekeeper?


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Easiest treatment I've used. Don't wear a mask and do a yard at a time. Can do about 20 hives in 1/2 hour with no lifting.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Keith Jarrett said:


> MBeck, with your outlook on things, me thinks you will do just fine an bee successful.


Thanks time will tell!

Mark,
Same guy, I'm only guessing he brings his hive here to build up for Brazilian Pepper...no idea but he was here during that flow.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Thanks, So far OA is my treatment of choice (Vaporizing). I have not used it long enough to notice any long term effects. I also use it only when monitoring indicates I need to.


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## Surviving Our Bees (Feb 14, 2021)

My local beekeeping club uses the club as a front to highlight their president's business. Everyone else is a hobbyist, so obviously, when people contact the county's website, the email goes right to the guy who sells nucs...

It's kind of crazy, the guy who was the previous president, used the club to front his business as well. He moved out, and now the new president is the one who's getting all the inquiries.

That beekeeping club's betrayed me enough times for me to stop going, but I did meet a few good people that I should stay in touch with. 

I find that it's a "good old boys" network, if they don't like you for whatever reason, they won't help you.

I'm not good with people, so what happens in the club is that I tend to be a black sheep - and I made the big mistake of trying to be nice and giving away some good ideas I had.

Never again. They stole my ideas for their own benefit.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

Surviving Our Bees said:


> I made the big mistake of trying to be nice and giving away some good ideas I had.
> 
> Never again. They stole my ideas for their own benefit.


If you gave them away, how did they steal them?


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## Surviving Our Bees (Feb 14, 2021)

@bushpilot you're getting hung up on a technicality in my writing, and ignoring the rest of my post.


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## Amibusiness (Oct 3, 2016)

Surviving, welcome to the forum. Sounds like you've been beeking a while. I don't know where you keep bees and I'm sorry you've had troublesome experiences with your club. Please take note of the age of threads you post to. There's a lot of ancient history being dredged up. In some cases it's better to let sleeping dogs lie. Of course you can start a new thread. If you are reading the sites recommendations at the bottom of the page you may be talking to people in the thread who are no longer participating in the forum. Good luck!


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

Surviving Our Bees said:


> @bushpilot you're getting hung up on a technicality in my writing, and ignoring the rest of my post.


I had no comment about the first part, I am not part of the club in question. 

But I was puzzled about the statement I quoted, so I asked. I guess that was somehow off-limits?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Surviving Our Bees said:


> My local beekeeping club uses the club as a front to highlight their president's business.


So what is exactly new here?


I would not fuss about the club but rather accept the club for what it is - a local business tool driven by local business interests. Most every time this exactly what it is.
What is wrong with it?
Exactly nothing, as long as you know what it is and know how to use it to your advantage (regardless if you are a buyer or a seller or a learner - there are benefits in such local club AND maybe drawbacks - nothing new).

Btw, as soon as I get into queen selling business, I will become more active in the local bee club.
At the moment I don't give much crud about it and hardly participate (except around the swarm hunting season - being on the local bee club listing is great just for that alone).
Oh, I forgot - I also snatched great deals on used equipment through the local club communications.


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## Surviving Our Bees (Feb 14, 2021)

In my local club I learned a ****load about beekeeping. What I learned over the years, is that as I became a better beekeeper, the club became less and less useful to me. 

There is massive corruption in beekeeping clubs. It's a zero sum game.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Surviving Our Bees said:


> In my local club I learned a ****load about beekeeping. What I learned over the years, is that as I became a better beekeeper, the club became less and less useful to me.....


So here you go - take what you can for yourself - then leave (OR become a seller).



Surviving Our Bees said:


> There is massive corruption in beekeeping clubs. It's a zero sum game.


This is a general human/social issue - not about "beekeeping clubs" per se.

So nothing new.


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