# sluggish bees falling off frames



## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

Speaking of the poison only, it is not uncommon for only one hive out of a few to get into poison while the rest do not. Each hive produces it's own workers and field force. It is the field scout bees which lead the rest to the food sources by way of the waggle dance. Therefore one hive could be working a source 300 ft away from the hive, while another could be working sources at 900 ft away. It really all depends upon the scouts.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Do they have food in the hive? Starving bees will present this way. If they do have food, and with temps as you report, things don't sound good at all. I think you were right not to combine these at this point. Are there any crops around you that may have been sprayed, or any other potential source of insecticide nearby? This sounds really bad for these bees.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Queenless hives go through two stages:
For the initial two to three (four) weeks they are "hot" on the comb, buzzing and loud. Michael Palmer recently uploaded a video of just this behavior. He shows that it is particular bees that exhibit the fanning, buzzing behavior.

Subsequently they become despondent and passive. They stop foraging and simply hang on the comb until the colony dies off. 

Looks like your bees have entered the passive stage. 

Combine with a hive needing more comb. The bees themselves are nearing the end of their life.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I wouldn't discount the possibility of it being the early stages of a virus die back. I saw a few widely spread examples of this sort of thing in some of our bees recently. The hives I observed did have quite a fewe dead bees on the bottom boards, plenty of feed and still decent surviving populations but the live bees did have a lethargic look. Because they were fewer than 1% of the hives, poisoning didnt seem a likely culprit.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

send a sample to the usda bee lab, Beltsville md.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

jim lyon said:


> I wouldn't discount the possibility of it being the early stages of a virus die back.


I would also agree with Jim. The paralytic virus (IAPV, Chronic Bee Paralysis) exhibit as passive bees. Queenlessness is caused by virus as frequently as newbees rolling her. In IAPV infections usually there are crawlers. Nosema causes weakened bees, what do the intestines look like? Clear or milky? Tracheal mites weakens bees -- in my experience the bees died just out of the hive on cold wet mornings.

Your tag line says you are TF >> What is your mite load? You do know that mite populations spike rapidly in the fall and cause hives to collapse from the diseases that the mites bring to the hive. 

If this is a mite mediated collapse, it will spread to the other hives as the weak one gets robbed out.

I would agree with Matheson equip. Send the bees to the lab. The huge problem with diagnosing on a message board is the poster waits until the answer that is most appealing and confirms their own bias.


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

I will definitely send sample to Beltsville lab. I'm leaning away from mites only because they had a brood break while they made a new queen in September. 

The reason I think I may have killed the queen is because when I added a second box to the nuk, I inadvertantly only put 3 frames in it--during strong Brazillian Pepper nectar flow. They build from the lid and when I opened it later October (I believe, as I didn't write down the date) comb broke off, nectar spilled, you get the picture. I framed the brood comb and then left it alone til last weekend when I found it queenless. 

I could only check the entrance today because I work 12 hr shifts and too cool this morning to open it up. Nothing happening at entrance. I can't do anything nore til Saturday if they are still alive.

There were still plenty of stores yesterday. I did not combine. 
Thanks for everyone's help. I had not seen anything like this before. Also, no telltale signs of nosemea.


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

They threw me a curve ball. None are dead. They are still sluggish but not falling off the frames. I still am not going to combine as I don't know what's going on.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

send the sample to Beltsville... follow the procedure they show exactly.... I can not tell you what is happening but I will put a possibility on the table: tracheal mites, diagnosis can only be confirmed by dissection and lab examination. the bees may not cluster right and get cold and die or almost die at the bottom and corners of the hive, sometimes this is a sympton that shows. many say that tracheal mites show no symptom at all but fall die off. tracheal mites are parasites of the bees breathing tubes, they are microscopic. infected bees can do well all summer. if the bees cluster tight they start to suffocate so they spread out and get too cold. I think the only treatment is formic acid products. a lot of our commercial bees are somewhat resistant to tracheal mites, but it is around and deadly.. if this is sadly the condition I hope there is no robbing happening to spread this.


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

Doing this today:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=7472

I have watched for robbing and so far, none. I may seal up the hive after I get the collection today...something to keep other bees out.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

let me know what you find out.. thank-you don matheson


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## bevy's honeybees (Apr 21, 2011)

Update.
Something came up and I didn't get into the hive that day. The next day, rain all day then a bad cold snap for 2 days. Then, my 12 hr work shifts, followed by nice weather. In the nice weather, I noticed the foraging starting again so I left them alone. Last Wednesday I went in, and though the population was down to one good frame of bees and some on 2 other frames, there was a nice patch of open brood! I gently put the frame back. I already had the entrance reduced to one bee. No sluggish or falling bees. I'm guessing it was a virgin or un-emerged queen in mid November. No sign of anything else wrong in the nuk. 
Maybe a case of DQB. Depressed Queenless Bees.


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