# Northern queens for swarm control



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My only problem rearing queens early in the north is resources. The Ferals raise drones very early, but there just aren't a lot of bees for mating nucs etc.


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

Thanks Michael. I just need to build up the cell builder, because I'll be mating in production colonies. 

I use both top and bottom entrances and planned to keep the old queen, for insurance, in the top of the hive, above supers and excluders, when the queen-cell is put in the brood-nest. What is the chance that the new queen would fly out the bottom entrance to mate and return in the top entrance. Is this a bad idea?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What is the chance that the new queen would fly out the bottom entrance to mate and return in the top entrance. Is this a bad idea?

Fair to middling. Queens often return the wrong place. But probably the majority of the time they go back into the same place they exited.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

It might be good insurance to rotate the bottom entrance to the back and leave the top entrance facing in the original direction.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

Also, a little colored paint, a small tree branch, or some colored plastic held near the bottom entrance helps to queen to orient herself on her first flight.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I assume you mean Section comb honey, when you say you want to produce comb honey. Have you ever considered cut comb? Way easier to produce, and with the 4 1/8 x 4 1/8 clear boxes, it is quite an attractive package. The process of producing cut comb is way easier than section...no abnormal swarming or crowding down the bees, etc. It seems that to requeen a colony with cells, as you are trying to produce a honey crop is prone to failure...in my opinion. If you need to requeen the comb producers, could you use a young laying queen, instead of cells?


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

>I assume you mean Section comb honey..
Yes, I was thinking of ross rounds. They seem tidy to process and market. I have not tried cut comb, it looks messier and less attractive to me on the shelf, but I should give it a fair trial for comparison.

>to requeen a colony with cells ... is prone to failure ...
More than with mating nucs? 

>could you use a young laying queen...
Sure, and that option is looking more attractive. It costs a few hives to populate the mating nucs in early spring, but those bees get returned to production if I requeen with nucs, which should improve requeening success (right?). This way the queen raising losses are taken in the mating nucs, instead of in production hives.

Thanks everyone for your ideas. We only get so many seasons to try new things, and it hurts to mess one up because of poorly thought out plans.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>>I assume you mean Section comb honey..
Yes, I was thinking of ross rounds. They seem tidy to process and market. I have not tried cut comb, it looks messier and less attractive to me on the shelf, but I should give it a fair trial for comparison.

Perhaps the keeper who produced the cut comb that you saw, isn't cutting or draining it properly. When properly handled, cut comb honey can be a beautiful package. When not so, is looks nasty...with uneven edges, travel stain, and a puddle of crystallized honey in the bottom.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

{I use both top and bottom entrances}

I would not reccommend top entrances for comb honey as you will likely increse pollen storage in comb honey supers degrading the final product.

Section comb honey is a great fun trip and the peak of the art if you run just a few hives and enjoy and excuse for the extra work time with the equipment/bees. If you are looking for high production and easy marketing Cut Comb is the way to go as Mike Suggests. Getting bees to work in Section comb honey is a complete operational task all it's own and in a moderate season often disappointing. We recently converted 10 yrs of Basswood section comb honey (all 8 frame) to cut comb and have not regretted it a minute. We need 1000 sections to meet current demand yearly and have done much better since the change with considerably less labor. I also found because of the high visibility and look of well drained cut comb honey in clear plastic it sells even better.
I would try a hive of sections if your starting just to compare and for the challenge.


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

Cut Comb sounds good. What is the the proper handling procedure for cutting and draining Cut Comb to produce a beautiful package? Thanks.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>What is the the proper handling procedure for cutting and draining Cut Comb to produce a beautiful package? Thanks. 

First,I think nyou need the proper frame. Kelley's thin split top bar-solid bottom bar frame is best for cut comb in 4 1/8" boxes. The foundation is reasonably simple to install, and the frame is easy to clean afterwards. One thing about comb honey. Your goal should be nice straight combs...without waves in the foundation.

Sometimes easier said. 

It warps for two reasons. One, there is no space between the foundation and the bottom bar. There has to be...about 3/8." If not, the bees will attach it to the bottom bar, and the foundation will sag when it is drawn out. And second, the foundation was installed crooked. 

At first, shallow wedge top bars will give you straighter comb...but they're not deep enough, and the cut doeasn't fill the box. Medium depth wedge frames can be used, but there is a lot of waste...of comb honey and foundation. So, make a jig to install the foundation in the split top bar frames...

Drive 2-16p naile into the middle of a 2'- 1x something...10"? 12"? The outside edges of the nails are 3/8" apart, and perpendicular to the length of the board. Then, cut them off 7/8" long.
Open the split in the center of a top bar, and slide it over the nails...parallel to the nails. Rotate the frame 90 degrees. The split top opens, and you slide a sheet of foundation into the split. It should protrude through the top bar 3/8". By nailing 2 - 3/8 cleats on the board, where the frame lugs are, they act like spacers. Push the frame onto them before you install the foundation, and insert the foundation into the frame until it hits the board. Now you have the foundation square, and spaced properly. Hold the foundation and frame in your fingers, and pull off nails. The frame snaps together, and the foundation is clenched. Fold the 3/8" extra piece of foundation over for extra support. With a little practice, you can get it to be straight.

To cut the comb, you need a cutting/draining board, a hot plate with pan of hot water, and 2 or 3 knifes. Put the knifes in the water.

The draining pan can be anything that will support the comb, and allow it to drain. A frame with 1/2" hardware cloth over a tank will work. You can come up with something. Place a frame of comb honey on the board. Cut around comb, with hot knife. Rotate knifes, so one the one you use is hot. Try to run the knife along the frame, without cutting wood. 

Trim the two ends...about 1/2 cell. That will straighten those sides. The side where the top bar is usually OK. The bottom has to be trimmed. Remember the 3/8" space? Well, that usually makes the bottom funny looking. Cut 3/8" off the bottom. You can measure this by just looking at the comb, and seeing the different pattern of cells, left by the space. 

Now you have a piece of comb that is 4 cuts wide and 1 cut deep. Cut into 4 equal width pieces. Use a marking stick if you have to. A new bottom bar works well. Separate the 4 pieces, and cut another frame...and another. You could make draining trays, with a baking tray, hardware cloth, and shims under the screen. Trays hold about 12 cuts. But, whatever you come up with...cutting board, draining trays, tank or table, you must drain the comb honey well. The warmer it is the better it drains...but the softer it becomes...for picking it up. Also, newly harvested comb drains better than comb that has dried out a bit. Drained comb slides into the boxes well, without drops of honey oozing over the sides. If not drained properly, the puddle of honey in the clear container will crystallize, and look terrible.

After it's well drained...some drain it overnight...package in 4 1/8" square boxes. Tape and label...or have a strip label that goes all the way around the box, and is tape and label.

Anyway...that's what I do. Being careful when cutting and draining, and installing foundation will pay. The prettier it is the better it sells.

About pretty...avoid travel stain. When it's ready, harvest it. Don't let it sit on the hive after capping...for too long. It will have yellow stains all over it. Also, use only your best colonies on a good flow to make comb honey. I place my cut comb boxes on colonies that are really bringing it in. I place the boxes under the supers that are almost full. That way, the bees can jump right on the foundation. You can put the other supers on other hive that are for extracted, and just use your comb hives for comb honey. The second comb box goes under the first when they are working well in the first, and a third under the second. The outside frames can be moved in when the center frames are drawn. Makes for more usable combs. Eventually the flow will end. Try to time it so they finish the last box by the end of the flow. Half finished supers are not much good. The don't extract well., and you just wind up wasting a bunch of foundation.

That pretty much will insure success...provided the flow is there!!


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

well I was quite prepared to ask the same question as patrick... so thanks for the process description mr palmer.

ps... I use some of my better and newest looking mini nuc frames for comb honey. at this location it does not sell quite so well, but it does create quite a bit of curiousity.


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

Michael, Thank you for investing the time to provide such a detailed answer. I very much appreciate it, and will give your method a try this summer.

Patrick


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## [email protected] (Aug 1, 2004)

Mike Palmer's description of how to produce cut comb is excellent. However, it is hard to describe how to get the foundation into the split top bar. We do about 50 supers a year of cut comb. If you want to stop over (Patrick Scannell lives nearby), we can show you the jig that Mike describes, and how to work it, in just a few minutes.

Now you all knew I could not let this go by without a small 'commercial'. As I said, we do about 50 supers a year of cut comb, but use it all for chunk honey. Around here the demand for chunk honey seems insatiable, particularly from the Islamic community. We package it in 1 lb., 2.5 lb. and 5 lb. clear containers.

But the best stuff is section comb honey made with Ross Rounds. This past year we produced just short of 5,000 sections. We wholesaled them in cartons of 24 or 54 (buyers option) for $4 each. They retailed in a range of $6.50 to $7.95. (The lady who retails for $7.95 bought about 300!) The advantages of Ross Rounds are that the foundation is pure wax, the shape leads bees to make perfect sections, and the labor is far less than what is required for good cut comb (as Michael describes).

The advantage of pure wax foundation is shared with cut comb, and is in contrast to other competing section comb products that coat plastic with beeswax.

But...whether cut comb or Ross Rounds, I encourage all beekeepers to produce comb honey. 

Pat, your original question dealt with using current-year northern queens to produce comb honey and avoid most of the swarming problems. As you obviously know, using current-year queens is one of the 'secrets' of successful comb honey production. Here in the northeast, it is difficult to use locally produced current-year queens for swarm control.

We have a swarming peak from the second week of May until the beginning of July. Our comb honey production window is from July 1 (basswood) through about August 30 (alfalpha and loosestrife). Unless you are close to expert in queen production it is hard to catch mated queens much before June 1.

So, if you want to requeen with current year queens for comb honey production (highly recommended), you need 'other' swarm control methods for most of May and at least part of June. Otherwise you will lose prime swarms and the use of the hives they came from for comb honey production.

Hope this helps,

Lloyd


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>Now you all knew I could not let this go by without a small 'commercial'.

And you knew that I'd have to reply. 

>But the best stuff is section comb honey made with Ross Rounds.

Side by side on the shelf, cut comb sells better than Ross Rounds...at least where I sell it.

>The advantage of pure wax foundation is shared with cut comb, and is in contrast to other competing section comb products that coat plastic with beeswax.

Is this really true? Plastic foundation in comb honey?? How is it eaten? I've never heard of such a thing, although I hace heard of one supplier that cuts round plugs of comb off plastic foundation, and adds it to the top of a jar...in his attempt to make "chunk" honey. Pretty silly looking package.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

If I was going to produce section comb honey, I would follow either the plan of Richard Taylor, or Carl Killion. 

Taylor's method is really quite simple, and takes advantage of a swarm's natural inclination to build comb. I haven't read yhe book in years, but basically it says...

When a colony swarms, and caught, the swarm is used to raise section comb honey. The swarmed parent colony is moved to a new stand. The swarm is hived on the old stand...at the old location. It is hived on a mediun of comb...I think 9 combs, but it could be one comb and 9 foundations...I can't quite remember. Above that are placed the section supers. The swarm population is bolstered by the field bees, that return to the original stand. We all know how swarms like to build comb. Well, that's what they do. As one super is being worked in well, add another under the first, and so on. As the super is finished, remove it to prevent travel stain.

When the flow is finished, the parent and swarm are united, requeening the unit using the young queen that the parent raised.


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## JWG (Jun 25, 2004)

>The advantage of pure wax foundation is shared with cut comb, and is in contrast to other competing section comb products that coat plastic with beeswax.

I think he is referring to the newer comb honey cassettes.


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

>Is this really true? Plastic foundation in comb honey?? How is it eaten?

Have you tried or seen Bee-O-Pack:
http://www.betterbee.com/products.asp?dept=1534

The bees build and fill half-comb in a small clear rectangular bowl. Customers often ask "I know how you get honey-comb, but how did you get it in here?". It is a nice presentation. You just scoop it out with a butter-knife or spoon to eat it.


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## Jerry J (Jan 12, 2004)

Michael Palmer, For my thin-foundation to stay straight in my cut comb honey shallow supers I use wedge top bar with divided bottom bars in my frames, brushy Mountain product. Never a complaint and have standing orders for my cut comb honey. Jerry


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## Jerry J (Jan 12, 2004)

For my thin-foundation to stay straight in my cut comb honey shallow supers I use wedge top bar with divided bottom bars in my frames, brushy Mountain product. Never a complaint and have standing orders for my cut comb honey. Jerry


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>For my thin-foundation to stay straight in my cut comb honey shallow supers I use wedge top bar with divided bottom bars in my frames, brushy Mountain product.
I'm not saying that it can't be done with wedge top bars. But, when installing foundation in thousands of frames, split top bars are quicker. Does your foundation extend into the divided bottom bar? You never get the foundation to warp at that point? I found that the bees attach it to the bottom bar, and is curves to one side when they draw it out.


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## Jerry J (Jan 12, 2004)

M Palmer, I feel like I am off posting on Pat's Swarm Control with Northern Queens. Maybe a new Topic. Jerry


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