# cut in handles on boxes - what tool?



## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

I think they do it with table saw and a jig that lets you slide it against the blade.

Wait unitl they are full of honey and you are going to wish you had cleats on them. Cut in handles are pretty but, cleats are important. I use 1x2 that have rounded edges so you can sink your fingers in or they go in the handle cut outs. So having both is nice also. Does not solve your question though.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

EastSideBuzz said:


> I think they do it with table saw and a jig that lets you slide it against the blade.
> 
> Wait unitl they are full of honey and you are going to wish you had cleats on them. Cut in handles are pretty but, cleats are important. I use 1x2 that have rounded edges so you can sink your fingers in or they go in the handle cut outs. So having both is nice also. Does not solve your question though.


It seems to me that a cut-out, recessed handhold would be sturdier than a cleat (it's simply a cut-out in the wood). 

EastSide, how do you attach the cleats so that they are solid with little chance of tearing out. I'm no woodworker, but can run saws...the application part is what gets me....I guess you could relate my woodworking ability in likening me to a "steering wheel holder" or "parts changer". I can run the equipment but don't know the details of working with it.

Questions that I can think of off the top of my head... What size screws do you use or do you use pneumatic stapes/nails? How many screws do you use? Do you use glue? (Can you tell that I need *lots* of help?  )

In my (feeble) mind here are some differences between cleats and cut-out handholds:
*Cleats can "tear out" easier than the cut-out handholds.
*With limited woodworking equipment (and skills) cleats are easier to build than cut-out handholds.
*The area on the top of the cleat that is against the box could be an area where rainwater could collect and stand possibly causing a rot problem? Cut-out handholds avoid the water standing issue. A smooth sided structure just seems "cleaner" for handling, storing, etc.,.
*Cleats give a much wider range of handholds along the side of the boxes. They also will give more "depth" for your fingers to hold onto than the shallower indentations of the cut-out handholds.
*Cleats will not allow hives to be pushed up closely to other hives...there would be roughly 1-1/2" of space between the individual hives (using 3/4" wood for cleats).

Both ways have their pros and cons it seems,

Ed


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Staples and glue. It the cleat is more for the ease of the fingers after picking up 10 boxes your fingers get tired. 1 7/8 staples and woodbond 2 glue.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Here ya go!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlM5yMuNetA


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

You still need the cleats to save on lifting a full deep.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

A good glue joint is as strong, and often stronger than the wood being joined

If you get 1 1/4" sheetrock screws (the trumpet head avoids the need to countersink) and a good glue like Titebond II you can make a good strong cleat unlikely to come off.

If you measure you will see that your 1x2 is actually only 3/4" thick. a 1 1/4 inch screw will go all of the way tough it, and 2/3 of the way thru a 1" hive body side.

Drill a pilot hole as big as the core of your screw where you will put each screw. This should leave all of the 'fins' of the threaded portion cutting into the wood.

Run a wavy glue line down one side of your cleat, or better, use a foam brush to cover all one side with glue.
Use a screw every 4 inches or so. 

Screw them in until the flat top of heads sink just below the level of the wood surface.

if you double up the 1x2 or just use 2x2 and longer screws, you'll get a much easier grip.

once your cleat is on, be sure to seal the joint along the top where the cleat meets the body with a bead of glue to prevent water getting in there and promoting rot.

The cleats will remain sound long after rust causes the screws to work loose.

If you want to cut them in so you can slide the hives together with the sides touching, careful use of a circular saw will do it, but will be a lot less safe.

I've done a lot of work as a carpenter. Have fun 'making sawdust'


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## brac (Sep 30, 2009)

I do mine with a dado blade, set at 5 degrees. Quick and easy. Clamp a stop to the saw so a box is centered on the blade(long side), set fence where you like, (I use 3"). Then I have a piece of scrap wood that moves it to center on the short side. Place the box against the stop, tilted up above the blade, hold firmly and against the fence, lower box on to blade.


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## cheezer32 (Feb 3, 2009)

How? Let's see here you can use a grinning wheel hammer and chisel a router a tablesaw shaper, there are many ways to do it, in my eyes though the best looking and more practical way if you plan to do it for awhile is a shaper and custom bit, you can get a wide variety of looks by slightly changing the bit, I'll post a video In a few.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXrGSVyQsaM&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

cut the top edge of the cleats at a few degrees if you trust design better than paint or sealer
storage is tighter with handholds, end cleats are fine since you do not butt hives entrance to entrance anyway, but may back to back
if you want to hide the nails, staples or wood screws drive them from the inside with glue to seal and form a bond


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Charlie B said:


> Here ya go!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlM5yMuNetA


Safety Warning! Never use a drill press or lathe for that matter while wearing gloves. That is a huge no no.

Also be aware that Drill Press bearing are not rated to withstand much of this side pressure and you will most likely wear out your drill press prematurely. There is also a fair risk that the Morse Taper will release and the quill will fall out of the press if you get any vibration. The High RPM will help reduce that though.

It also bothers me That he does not verify that the wheel is rated for the RPM he is using it at. I tried looking it up but the site does not have a search function.

Just some warnings, shops can sting harder than bees otherwise this looks like a fairly harmless set up I don't think you would get hurt but your equipment might.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

This is not sounding like a quick easy pick up a tool at home depot and have instant handles. 24 instant handles. I would have to learn to use the shaper and custom bit, after I learn where to buy it. 1x2 with a slope should do the trick... Guy with tablesaw forgot the handles, and I need semi-instant, after working over 12 hours by the time I finish next project. Thank you. Next time I build boxes, I can refer to this thread. 

Gypsi



cheezer32 said:


> How? Let's see here you can use a grinning wheel hammer and chisel a router a tablesaw shaper, there are many ways to do it, in my eyes though the best looking and more practical way if you plan to do it for awhile is a shaper and custom bit, you can get a wide variety of looks by slightly changing the bit, I'll post a video In a few.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXrGSVyQsaM&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

If the side of your hive is made of 1x2 then it is really only 3/4 inch thick. If you carve a handle that is 1/2 inch thick that only leaves 1/4 inch of wood at that thinnest point. 1/2 inch is not a lot of space for your fingers to get a purchase. If your wood was a true 1 inch thick you could get a little more depth to your handle and still leave a little more thickness in your side as well.

For quick and easy go with spurs. some 1.2, screws and a good quality glue and you are ready to go to town. The grinding stone in the video alone is going to cost $60 or more, A shaper bit alone would most likely be over $100. and the shaper would be a lot more than that.

Spurs for a half dozen hives would cost less than $10.

I have a pretty complete wood shop and would still go with spurs. as time goes on and they wear out etc. they are much easier to replace.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> <snip>
> 
> I have a pretty complete wood shop and would still go with spurs. as time goes on and they wear out etc. they are much easier to replace.


Spurs??? I'm lost...


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I'm guessing spurs are 4 to 6 inch pieces of 1x2, screwed and glued onto the box. That's what I'm going to do. Buying $1000 worth of tools to save the maybe $80 I spent on these boxes does not fit my budget. I don't have time for much woodwork. Did forward the you tube links on to my ex. He likes toys.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I dislike milled out handles for the reasons Daniel Y pointed out. They greatly reduce the R value of the wood in the area of the handle and creat cold places in the hive. Not good for successful wintering.

I attach my cleats from the inside with wood screws, you will never tear them off.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Beregondo said:


> A
> If you measure you will see that your 1x2 is actually only 3/4" thick. a 1 1/4 inch screw will go all of the way tough it, and 2/3 of the way thru a 1" hive body side.


Hive bodies are also 3/4s thick...just like the 1x2


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> Hive bodies are also 3/4s thick...just like the 1x2


(...and if you subtract the 3/4" thickness of a 1x2 from a 1 1/4" screw, the remaining 1/2" goes 2/3 thru the nominal 1" [3/4" actual] thickness of a hive body. )


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

The way I read it it sounded like you were saying they were 1" thick...sorry.
mike


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Intheswamp said:


> Spurs??? I'm lost...


Sorry "cleats" not spurs. my head thinks faster than my fingers can type.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

The Delta company made a carbide tipped form tool for table saws in the early 50's. It was radiused on one side, and straight on the other. The results was a hand hold much like purchased supers.

Crazy Roland


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Beregondo said:


> (...and if you subtract the 3/4" thickness of a 1x2 from a 1 1/4" screw, the remaining 1/2" goes 2/3 thru the nominal 1" [3/4" actual] thickness of a hive body. )


Fine thread or coarse? And I'm guessing drill a pilot hole?


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Sears Craftsman used to sell a molder head that cut perfect handles. They stopped selling it for liability reasons - it can grab and kick wood if fed to fast. I have one still. There is a commercial version but it is almost custom and cost several hundred dollars.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

Daniel Y said:


> Safety Warning! Never use a drill press or lathe for that matter while wearing gloves. That is a huge no no


I suppose like anything you read on the internets its always subject to common sense.

If you have ever tried to dill a hole in sheet metal on a drill press and had it snatch it out of your hand, you'll quickly learn to wear gloves as oppose to getting the palm of your hand stitched back up.

If you have ever turned a bowl on a lathe and had bark chunks and shavings repeadly slammed into the back of hand that is holding the tool on the tool rest for hrs at a time, you quickly learn to wear gloves.

As an axial load on a bearing is 10x harder than horizontal load dont expect to wear out your drill press bearings anytime soon.

The RPM warning is something to note, 2400 rpm would likely work just fine anyway.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Sorry "cleats" not spurs. my head thinks faster than my fingers can type.


Don't worry about it, I understand now. I was inquiring a while back about foundation with or without hooks....and referred to the hooks as "ears". Of course my newbeeness was loudly on display then...now it's just a crashing crescendo. 

Best wishes,
Ed


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

I believe that the R value difference is negligable. Even with Eastern White Pine, which has one of the higher R values of the various species of wood, a 3/4" board is less than R-1. so to have R- .5 over a such a small portion of the surface amounts to very little. 

It does get chilly here in the hills of Western Maine in the winter and I still prefer handholds over cleats. The bees do not seem to suffer because of it. (And yes, I've seen the thermal imaging photos and the difference only looks alarming. It isn't.)

I make them with a small trim router and give them an extra heavy coat of paint. No rotting apparent yet.

Wayne


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

The wood left is only .25 inches so your R-value is .25. 

A single pain window has an R-value of 1.0 and an insulatated double pain 1.6, but the windows in your house are such a small area compared to the R-19 walls that the heat loss of the window is negligable right?  Ever stand next to a double pain vs a single in the dead of winter?

Think of your cluster with those cold spots on all 4 sides, They have to constantly burn energy to warm those 4 spots in the cluster. The thermal images look alarming because the heat loss is.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

schmism said:


> I suppose like anything you read on the internets its always subject to common sense.
> 
> If you have ever tried to dill a hole in sheet metal on a drill press and had it snatch it out of your hand, you'll quickly learn to wear gloves as oppose to getting the palm of your hand stitched back up.
> 
> ...


Are you suggesting that holding metal with your hand as it is being drilled is a recommended method? or that using turning techniques that bring your hand in contact with your work is not something that needs to be addressed in your practices? Fix dangerous work habits with another one I guess. The reason not to wear gloves is because you can come in contact with the turning piece when you don't intend to. A glove will wrap around the spindle with our without your hand in it.


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## btmurph (Aug 7, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Are you suggesting that holding metal with your hand as it is being drilled is a recommended method? or that using turning techniques that bring your hand in contact with your work is not something that needs to be addressed in your practices? Fix dangerous work habits with another one I guess. The reason not to wear gloves is because you can come in contact with the turning piece when you don't intend to. A glove will wrap around the spindle with our without your hand in it.


I gotta go with Daniel on this one... having worked as a machinist, you just don't wear gloves, long sleeved shirts, neckties or jewelry when working lathes, mills or even drill presses (well, I mighta worn the shirt and my wedding ring when using the drill press, but only sometimes! :shhhh: ) Wearing any of these things is a great way to lose body parts or your life!


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

bluegrass said:


> The wood left is only .25 inches so your R-value is .25. ...... Ever stand next to a double pain vs a single in the dead of winter?...Think of your cluster with those cold spots on all 4 sides, They have to constantly burn energy to warm those 4 spots in the cluster. ...


A minor correction to the math, a quarter inch of Eastern White Pine would be more like R 0.333.

Certainly the difference between the heat loss of a pane of glass and an insulated wall is certainly noticeable but the difference between R1 and R 0.33 would hardly be worth mentioning. You would not notice it, the difference is so minute. And that would only be important to this discussion if bees heated the hive in the same way humans heat their homes. But they don't. They heat the cluster and, only to a minor degree, a bit of the air around it. I am told that there is perhaps an inch of air where the heat elevation is even measurable. Since my bees seldom cluster up against the outer wall of the box, the minute difference in heat loss through the handhold vs. the majority of the surface is not even worth considering, especially in a hive with adequate air infiltration (ventilation.)

Still, you can be alarmed by the thermal images if you wish. Countless hives of bees successfully kept in hand-hold equipped hives for well over a century in climates much colder than yours (here in Maine, for instance,) leads me to believe it is a non-issue. At least it is for me and most every beekeeper I know in the colder regions.

Wayne


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/hensel-handle-sloping-pocket-handle-for-hive-boxes/


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Uses a router 

http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/hensel-handle-sloping-pocket-handle-for-hive-boxes/

BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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