# Sticky  Oxalic/glycerin on cellulose mite treatment



## Outdoor N8

I was looking into the Oxalic treatment line dribble vs. sublimation and trying to figure what would be more beneficial for me in the long run.
Pro's and con's with both methods, really wishing there was a third option when: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-015-0405-7

Yes, I could purchase the paper, but I'm big, I can admit: I'm cheap-
If you look diligently, Randy Oliver mentions this as a potential, and possibly strong option. ?!

Anyone out there have the Beta on it?


----------



## bendriftin

So how do you make the strips? 2 on top and 2 in between boxes? Would love to here some more information, I would be willing to try it.


----------



## Outdoor N8

My understanding is they are basic single layer cardboard, soaked in the solution. cut maybe 10in long and an inch wide, bend them over a frame and have them hang down between frame spaces (I presume like an Apistan strip). It seems simple, and no wet bees or scorched wood.


But I would want to know more- ESPECIALLY mix ratios and application time.


----------



## bendriftin

Me too, if you find anything please post it


----------



## hex0rz

Interesting. It's like a apivar? How does this really treat them? Is it temperature sensitive like MAQS?

More information it's needed by me than just that article...


----------



## beepro

"Dispensing O.A. in cellulose strips, without water presence but only with
crystals of organic acid gives unsatisfactory results especially when the level of humidity 
inside the nest is not sufficient to moisten the O.A. crystals.
Conclusions
Oxalic acid soaked in cellulose strips did not give acceptable varroa control under spring conditions in central Italy. 
Control was better for winter treatments under broodless conditions. The reason for its poor efficacy is possibly due to the modality action of O.A. 
This paper also has shown the trickling and the evaporation of O.A. are the most effective ways of it to control varroa (Graph 2)." 

So if you somehow can make the oa powder fine enough to stick on the bees then you might have a winner.
I wonder what is its effectiveness if you can combine the fine sugar and oa powder together to shake on the bees?
Could potato powder or any other tuber powder works with the oa powder mixed in? Will agar powder harm the bees too?


----------



## bendriftin

Let's say you used oa in a powder and did a type of dusting would the oa eventually become inert or somehow be removed from the hive. I think if a person could get the oa to remain suspended in mineral oil you could possibly fog them, but the oa Crystals settle out to quickly


----------



## Outdoor N8

Trying to revert to chemistry from 25+ yrs ago... OA mixed with glycene (an ester) and heated to 180 F= a gas you DON"T WANT in your house and ......Formic Acid.

But, Efficacy on mites while brood was present (this was a summer study) averaged 93.1%, with no residual in comb or honey.
"At the beginning of the experiment, the new formulation
were applied to the treatment group. Aluen Cap treatment
consists of four strips U-shaped. The matrix of these
strips is composed of cellulose (45 cm×3 cm×1.5 mm);
each one contains 10 g of OA mixed with 20 mL of
glycerin. Each strip was placed astride on frames 2, 4, 6,
and 8 of the brood chamber (Figure 1)."

There is no information on mix procedure or strip impregnation procedure.

I did find a news release here:http://news.agropages.com/News/NewsDetail---13105.htm


----------



## zonedar

This post got me intrigued to do some Google-Fu and I found this on making strips:

http://teca.fao.org/comment/2319#comment-2319



FWIW and YMMV


----------



## beepro

Dups!


----------



## beepro

They were talking about the winter treatment.
Then "....beekeeping season. Then if we check there are not varroa in the colonies at the end of winter it is better to wait up to the time to add suppers to add some strips if it is necessary."

So they are not following the EPA's recommendation about adding the supers and
using the oa strips at the same time. It is still an experiment so proceed with
caution. Not sure how strong is a 600 g of oa powder? And how do we get the
glycerin anyway? Anybody trying this experiment out?


----------



## Outdoor N8

zonedar said:


> This post got me intrigued to do some Google-Fu and I found this on making strips:
> 
> http://teca.fao.org/comment/2319#comment-2319
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW and YMMV


Great find. Interestingly, the photo provided on pg. 3 (from the link) is the same photo Randy Oliver uses. I wonder if he is the friend in the north eluded to in the efficacy study.

I'll tell ya, my one hive has gotten feisty enough, I'm getting ready to try this experiment on them!

"So they are not following the EPA's recommendation about adding the supers and
using the oa strips at the same time." Well, Beepro, as they are in Argentina I don't believe the U.S. EPA has much sway with them. However, I do understand your point. How many in the U.S. were vaporizing before it was labeled for use and/or in their State? It is considered an organic based treatment.


----------



## beepro

I believe this treatment will work. Been thinking about
this for awhile now. But don't know how to use the glycerine.
Pretty soon a product like this will be on the market here.
I do use it after the Autumn flow and just before the Spring flow
when needed. But not when the honey supers are on. It is better to
follow the EPA recommendation to not contaminate the honey even though this
is the safest organic treatment so far.


----------



## CrMax

There are two types of glycerin. Vegetable and Propylene propylene is a byproduct of oil industry suppose identical to vegetable chemically ? Vegetable glycerin is available at most drug stores.. if any of you are using or have used E-cigs. you are inhaling the stuff. You can also get it from e-cig stores. 

Thinking about experimenting with this. One concern I did find bees dying during dry season they think the bees use the strips for moisture.


----------



## zonedar

You can also find food grade vegetable based glycerin on Amazon.


----------



## beepro

Thanks for the tips. During the summer dearth I will switch the treatment
plan to using my homemade oav gadget when brood rearing is
at their lowest. You can also put a jar of water on the top bars too.
So these strips are better for the Autumn and winter management.
You can also put a jar of water on the top bars too.
My concern is whether or not the ratio is too potent for this mixture?


----------



## Daniel Y

beepro said:


> Conclusions
> Oxalic acid soaked in cellulose strips did not give acceptable varroa control under spring conditions in central Italy.
> 
> 
> So if you somehow can make the oa powder fine enough to stick on the bees then you might have a winner.
> I wonder what is its effectiveness if you can combine the fine sugar and oa powder together to shake on the bees?
> Could potato powder or any other tuber powder works with the oa powder mixed in? Will agar powder harm the bees too?


I'm thinking Cellulose strips soaked in OA is more accurate.

I did have an interesting thought concerning the later comment. How do you get OA to a fine powder? you vaporize it. So what about hanging cellulose strips (think photographic film) in a box and vaporize oa in it. powder will coat the cellulose. strips I think would have to be handled with much care to prevent rubbing the powder off though. pre treated strips as opposed to just vaporizing a hive in my opinion.


----------



## CrMax

I will have to look at the article again but I am pretty sure the quote from Italy posted by beepro. Was talking about mixing OA and water to soak the strips? Not the glycerin. Glycerin is hygroscopic and will stay moist for quite a while.


----------



## Outdoor N8

CrMax said:


> I will have to look at the article again but I am pretty sure the quote from Italy posted by beepro. Was talking about mixing OA and water to soak the strips? Not the glycerin. *Glycerin is hygroscopic and will stay moist for quite a while*.


Yes, in the Argentine study, they kept the mix soaked strips in the HB for 42 days and still had mite falls.


----------



## beepro

No, I have experimented with the water + oa powder (oap) that did not work
out too well. Water is too inert with the oap and cannot be mixed together. The oa powder simply
sank to the bottom while the water is at the top portion. So I 
don't know another way to distill the active ingredient from the oap that I can use with the
cardboard to soak it up. Every time I tried to get some oap on the wet cardboard it would
slide off. My conclusion is to get some type of a sticky gooey materials. The glycerin came up
at the right time here. 
As for blowing the powder on the strip, the oa crystals have a very short life span. Before they can
get on the bees they might be dissolved already inside the hive. So it cannot be pick up by the bees that
effectively. During the oav burn process, lots of bees (picture the white ghosts) got covered with these white oa crystals. On the strips the oa crystals are too thin to get on the bees. Oh, the bees will fan while in the oav process to further distribute the oa crystals through out the hive too. Using water and blowing the oa crystals onto the strips simply cannot work that well. Let me know if you have experimented with another method that has better result than the glycerine.


----------



## Jim 134

I do know someone who made this formula. He did not use cardboard. He used strips of balsa wood. He did follow the article and ABJ



BEE HAPPY Jim 134


----------



## cerezha

beepro said:


> No, I have experimented with the water + oa powder (oap) that did not work
> out too well. Water is too inert with the oap and cannot be mixed together. The oa powder simply
> sank to the bottom while the water is at the top portion.../QUOTE]
> Strange, OA powder is easily dis-solvable in water or syrup - it is used in "dribble method"


----------



## cerezha

glycerol reacts with OA with heating. It creates glycerol monoxalate, which will decompose forming formic acid at temperatures above 100oC. I would suspect, that glycerol monoxalate may decompose slowly even at "beehive temperature" releasing formic acid, which kills varroa...
https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/chemistry/formic.acid.html


----------



## rainesridgefarm

for those of you that have used this any new results to share?


----------



## leejones15

What exactly is a "cellulose strip"? If I wanted to buy a sheet (or roll) of cellulose, what should I look for?


----------



## Bob J

leejones15 said:


> What exactly is a "cellulose strip"? If I wanted to buy a sheet (or roll) of cellulose, what should I look for?


Basically cardboard.....


----------



## leejones15

I've been told that corrugated cardboard falls apart, when you soak it and that there is some kind of sheeting that the bees won't chew up (like paper towels) so that the strips can stay in for an extended time


----------



## Bob J

leejones15 said:


> I've been told that corrugated cardboard falls apart, when you soak it and that there is some kind of sheeting that the bees won't chew up (like paper towels) so that the strips can stay in for an extended time


Solid not corrugated.... The cardboard I heard recommended and I used in my test batch were the cardboard shims used for drywall.... https://www.amazon.com/Strait-Flex-DS-45-Drywall-Shim/dp/B00236E27Q


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

The article linked in post #1 is behind a $39 paywall. Here is what appears to be the same article for free:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...s_mellifera_colonies_in_the_presence_of_brood

The PDF I linked includes some photos of the cellulose strips. Based on the photos and description, I'd say that the stiff "chipboard" that is often found as backing for paper notepads is very close to what was used in the study.

Chipboard is often used as backing for products packaged with some kind of shrinkwrap, so there is "free" chipboard readily available, but there are plenty of vendors if you want to buy it if you just Google "chipboard". For a small quantity, a notepad at the $1 Store is one option.


----------



## leejones15

Thanks, thats what I was looking for. What thickness is recommended for the chipboard?


----------



## Outdoor N8

The study I cited uses these dimensions: (45 cm×3 cm×1.5 mm) so 1.5mm thick. However, I personally don't think this part needs to be exact. More of a, too thin and it falls apart- too thick and your messing with the bee space.


----------



## acbz

Outdoor N8 said:


> The study I cited uses these dimensions: (45 cm×3 cm×1.5 mm) so 1.5mm thick. However, I personally don't think this part needs to be exact. More of a, too thin and it falls apart- too thick and your messing with the bee space.


I've recently made around 1000 of these strips, currently testing, the drywall shims work well but what is most convenient for me is to buy these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Non-Corruga...295734?hash=item3d1b8dfef6:g:F~gAAOSwAYtWHl~s
It says currently unavailable, just call Mann Lake and give them the 80-302 part number. 4 cents a strip


----------



## zonedar

Really interested in some before/after and drop counts on this technique when you guys know something.


----------



## leejones15

Are the strips draped over so that the hang between the frames (like a horseshoe), or are the laid across the top like MAQS?


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

These images of the strips are from the report I linked in post #29 ...


----------



## hex0rz

I picked up a bundle of strips from home depot for like 8 dollars. A bundle was 100 strips. Cut them to length and now i have a ton of them. Bought more oa crystal and bought a gallon of glycerin from amazon. 

This totaled less than 50 dollars for everything. Going to make some up soon for my own testing...


----------



## leejones15

I haven't read the article (need something bigger than my phone), so maybe it talks about it there, but why the horseshoe instead of just laying across the top? If it decomposes into formic, isn't it the low vaporization point vs. direct contact? Just curious.


----------



## hex0rz

leejones15 said:


> I haven't read the article (need something bigger than my phone), so maybe it talks about it there, but why the horseshoe instead of just laying across the top? If it decomposes into formic, isn't it the low vaporization point vs. direct contact? Just curious.


My understanding is this is like apivar, just with oxalic acid instead of amitraz.


----------



## wildbranch2007

from bee-l and randy oliver

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1607&L=bee-l&F=&S=&P=25810



> >I am revisiting varroa knowledge for a teaching on making and using monoxalate
> strips.
> 
> BTW, I'm in the middle of extensive testing of the oxalate strips (I'm not
> convinced that monoxalate has anything to do with them). I'm testing
> different application methods, thinking that the method used in Argentina
> can be improved. I'll have final mite counts in 10 days, and plan to mix
> up improved formulations today.


----------



## wildbranch2007

a follow up post

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1607&L=bee-l&F=&S=&P=45457



> >Do they work?
> 
> Yes. This delivery method of oxalic acid could revolutionize varroa
> management, yet also comes with its own problems.
> 
> >How to improve them?
> 
> The bees presumably need to make physical contact with the strips, in order
> to get the oxalic acid to stick to their bodies. But they avoid the strips
> as currently formulated, and chew them away very slowly, if at all. This
> creates two problems:


----------



## zonedar

Bumping up to see if anyone has any results that they can report.


----------



## JeronimoJC

Bumping!


----------



## wildbranch2007

Randy Oliver said at this weekends conference, that he is still working on making strips that are effective and the bees will remove. didn't think the cellulose strips were effective, since I don't intend to use them I don't remember the specifics. maybe someone else that was there will chime in.


----------



## Jim 134

leejones15 said:


> What exactly is a "cellulose strip"? If I wanted to buy a sheet (or roll) of cellulose, what should I look for?


You can find it anywhere that sells drywall supplies. You just have to ask for it. It is used in simmering dry wall. The stuff I have gotten before coming in strips. They are about an inch and a half wide and about 2 feet long.

BEE HAPPY Jim 134


----------



## Rader Sidetrack

> It is used in simmering dry wall.


Mmmm-boy! I love me some good _simmered _drywall! :lookout: Add some vienna sausage too. k:


[hr] [/hr]

Drywall shims made from Chipboard (recycled paper) ... http://www.lowes.com/pd/Grip-Rite-100-Pack-Shim-Actual-0-055-in-x-1-5-in-x-45-in/3334498

:shhhh:


----------



## aunt betty

Bob J said:


> Basically cardboard.....


What exactly is a cellulose strip? Been following this thread and am fairly certain the "strips" are made out of drywall joint tape which basically is paper (cellulose). This: 
http://www.menards.com/main/buildin...445401502-c-13061.htm?tid=2006316489475405410


----------



## jwcarlson

Times like these I wish I had some sticky boards so that I could try to quantify these things. I've got the stuff to make a batch of strips, but I haven't go around to doing it. Does anyone have a link to Oliver writing or talking about it? All I have is the little snippet in ABJ that he wrote and that seems to be about all I can find. He seemed to indicate that he thought it effective at that point.

And quite a few 'commercial' guys on Facebook seemed to be using them when someone asked on their.


----------



## wildbranch2007

jwcarlson said:


> Does anyone have a link to Oliver writing or talking about it? All I have is the little snippet in ABJ that he wrote and that seems to be about all I can find. He seemed to indicate that he thought it effective at that point.


posts #39 and #40 in this thread.


----------



## jwcarlson

wildbranch2007 said:


> posts #39 and #40 in this thread.


Embarrassed that I missed those :O

Thank you, wildbranch!


----------



## Bob J

aunt betty said:


> What exactly is a cellulose strip? Been following this thread and am fairly certain the "strips" are made out of drywall joint tape which basically is paper (cellulose). This:
> http://www.menards.com/main/buildin...445401502-c-13061.htm?tid=2006316489475405410


It's heavier.... You want it to absorb quite a bit of the mixture and tape really won't absorb enough.... Here is a link to the drywall shims on Amazon so you can get an idea what they look like:

Drywall-Shim


----------



## Jim 134

Bob J said:


> It's heavier.... You want it to absorb quite a bit of the mixture and tape really won't absorb enough.... Here is a link to the drywall shims on Amazon so you can get an idea what they look like:
> 
> Drywall-Shim


This link may work better
https://www.amazon.com/Strait-Flex-DS-45-Drywall-Shim/dp/B00236E27Q

BEE HAPPY Jim 134


----------



## Bob J

Jim 134 said:


> This link may work better
> https://www.amazon.com/Strait-Flex-DS-45-Drywall-Shim/dp/B00236E27Q
> 
> BEE HAPPY Jim 134


Thanks Jim! :thumbsup:


----------



## camero7

Like Mike I also attended the conference. My memory is that Randy reported that less is more when mixing glycerin with the oxalic. He had a technical explanation which I didn't really understand. He also said he was working on a slightly different delivery system. My memory is not that great but that's my impression. 

I have used chipboard for Amitraz for a while [same stuff]. I get it at my printers. He cut me some strips [a few years supply] and I gave him some honey. We were both happy.


----------



## wildbranch2007

camero7 said:


> Like Mike I also attended the conference. My memory is that Randy reported that less is more when mixing glycerin with the oxalic. He had a technical explanation which I didn't really understand. He also said he was working on a slightly different delivery system. My memory is not that great but that's my impression.


that's what he said, I remembered once Cam reminded me:applause:


----------



## camero7

Thanks Mike, I wasn't sure I remembered correctly,:s


----------



## Vance G

Bob J said:


> Basically cardboard.....


Poster board.


----------



## zonedar

Bump. Anyone have results to post?


----------



## johno

I did a test on 6 hives consisting of 4 medium 8 frame hive bodies. I dissolved 60grams of OA into 100 grams of glycerin then soaked 6" by 4" pieces of craft paper in the solution hung the pieces in a bucket overnight to drain. the next day placed 2 pieces of the soaked paper onto the top bars of the 3 lower boxes. I removed the remains after 14 days and placed 6 pieces of soaked paper onto the top bars of each hive. After another 14 days I did a mite check on 2 of the hives by means of a sugar Rolland the results were not good, 9 mites and 16 mites. I then checked the remaining 8 hives in the yard that I had treated with OAV and the 2 hives I checked there were, 0 mites and 3 mites. That was after 5 treatments 7 days apart. So I guess I will continue with OAV and formic acid.
Johno


----------



## zonedar

Thanks John!


----------



## JoshuaW

I had a colony with 20 mites in the alcohol wash. My 12 other hives had only 5; I made strips and put in all the hives but only went back on day 21 to check the hive with 20 mites. It had only 5. The paper is being removed very actively by some hives and very slowly by others.


----------



## wildbranch2007

a post on bee-l from the guy in chile

http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/wa-LSOFTDONATIONS.exe?A2=ind1609&L=bee-l&F=&S=&P=16684


----------



## beepro

So did he lay 4 strips on the top honey box?
And then 4 strips hanging in each of the brood box.


----------



## Outdoor N8

So, let's see If I get this written down sensibly: I tried this and found it did reduce the mite load.

I do have doubts about results due to: sample size and plausible set up/user error.

My baseline for mite load was doing the sugar roll. I know not everyone is a fan and it's not as absolute as an alcohol wash but it's what I use. Sampling for the roll was 1/2 C. of bees (+/- 300) and were shook from brood nest frames with mature open larvae. Strips were placed in the hives 9/29 and pulled 10/31.

Hive 'G' (1HB 10F) went from 3 mites to 1
nuc 5 (5F) went from 2 mites to 4 (the one anomaly)
nuc 1 (5F) went from 2 to ? ( 5F and only one frame with OB, couldn't find the queen-she's a hider and skipped the second roll test rather than risk scooping the Q)
nuc 3 (5F) went from 2 to 0
Hive R (2HB 10F) went from 4 mites to 2
hive V (2HB 10F) wnet from 6 mites to 2

The thing I noticed most was , some hives chewed the heck out of the strips and these were the ones with the greater mite reduction (hives G and V). Other hives chose to instead chew away the cells from underneath the strips and seemed not to have as great a reduction in mite load. I did go ahead and treat all with Apiguard after removing the strips.


----------



## Bee Arthur

Thanks, Outdoor N8. Thinking about trying this next year. I've got all the components except the cardboard drywall shims...I actually went to Home Depot to pick some up but the employees there hadn't heard of them.


----------



## homegrown

I'm planning on using GRIP-RITE drywall shims from Home Depot. How can I find out if there's formaldehyde in them? Where can I find the MSDS or SDS sheet? Thanks


----------



## beepro

For that you have to go back to the manufacturer. Maybe ask at the customer service center.


----------



## camero7

why not go to a printer and get some chipboard. Works great, has no additives that will cause you problems and most printers will trade a good supply [3 years worth and still have some] for a couple bottles of honey. My printer cut them to size for me too.


----------



## Bob J

Was very impressed with the Randy Oliver article in the January ABJ using shop towels instead of the cardboard strips for oxalic/glycerin treatments.... Cheaper, easier to apply and no need to open the hives again to remove the strips since the bees will remove it all by themselves.... If you haven't seen it yet I would recommend you give the article a look.....


----------



## Eduardo Gomes

In addition to the ABJ do you know some other place on the net where I can consult this article from R. Oliver? Thanks.


----------



## Bob J

Eduardo Gomes said:


> In addition to the ABJ do you know some other place on the net where I can consult this article from R. Oliver? Thanks.


Eventually I suspect Randy will post it to his web site http://scientificbeekeeping.com/articles-by-publication-date/


----------



## Eduardo Gomes

Yes it is likely, he does it usually. I'll wait a little longer. It's a topic that interests me a lot. Thank you Bob J.


----------



## homegrown

Same oxalic/glycerin recipe with the blue shop towels? 1000 grams glycerin/600 grams wood bleach?


----------



## Bob J

homegrown said:


> Same oxalic/glycerin recipe with the blue shop towels? 1000 grams glycerin/600 grams wood bleach?


Am not sure since his formula is ml of glycerin vs grams.... His recipe is 25ml warm food grade glycerine to 25 grams of Oxalic. He cautions to be sure to use nitrile gloves and eye protection. This is enough for a single shop towel (one hive treatment) so you need to multiply the recipe by the number of hives you want to treat. Place on a rack and tray and squeeze/press until approximately half the solution has been recovered. The recovered solution will pick up the blue dye from the towels and can be reused. The final "dry" towels will have approximately 25g of solution and weigh approximately 31g. He cautions that you have to be careful handling these as the OA/Gly solution will stick readily to your skin and will easily be transferred to everything and anything you touch. Cleanup with warm water and he mentions that OA is quickly neutralized with baking soda dissolved in water.

Application is a single prepared towel placed directly on the top bars of the brood chamber. One per hive. The treatment is active for approximately two brood cycles after which the bees should chew/remove the towel and throw it out of the hive. 

I highly recommend that you read the article when you get a chance.... Very well written and includes all the associated data/results as well as the different approaches he tried to optimize the treatment....

He also cautions (rightfully so) that this treatment is not approved anywhere to his knowledge so at this point it should be considered purely experimental.....

Also worth mentioning that his research is primarily funded by beekeeper donations....


----------



## chux

Thanks so much for this thread. You folks are great. I'm looking at trying this treatment on 500 hives. Getting set to order. I figure to order glycerin from a bulk dealer online. Looks like I can get a 50 pound bucket shipped to my door for around $90. Getting a 40 pound box of oxalic from a local guy. Couple of questions...

First, how hot do you warm the glycerin? 

Second, please help with the numbers. For 500 towels, it sounds like I need 3.3 gallons of glycerin and 27.5 pounds of oxalic. Does that sound right? Can I mix it together, and then tear off and submerge a stack of towels?

Third, how should I treat the towels? Should I tear off a stack of towels, then lower them into the mixture. Pull the stack out and press it together to get excess out? Suggestions????


----------



## camero7

Randy notes that a 25% solution of OA in the glycerine is best hauled out by the bees. So I'd figure about a gallon of glycerine weighs around 10# so I'd dissolve about 2.5# of OA in it. I'm going to heat mine over a propane turkey fryer to almost boiling then put the OA in it. I can buy the shop towels already flat and I'll just put the # I need in a container, pour the solution over it. Let them soak and then remove the towels and squeeze some of the solution out. I'd probably want them too wet than too dry. I need less than you so you'll want to change those #'s but a 4:1 ratio is easy to figure


----------



## DavidZ

Man, people here shouldn’t be playing with chemistry.

first thisn I have a master's in Botany, Organic Chemistyr, and a BS in Anth from ASU

glycerine is a tincture carrier that is well known for it's instant absobtion into the blood brain barrier

someone here is going to die from poisoning themselves with OA, yeah, it's a weak acid, but a deadly poison,
getting alittle on your skin easy nuff to clean with neutralizing H2O

butwhen added to glycerine you have a deadly drug ready to damage to the human organ.

always neutralize in heavy baking soda bath, before washing with water


WASH YOU HANDS IN BAKING SODA WATER UNTILL FIZZING FOAMING STOPPS> THEN DO IT AGAIN.
Clean up with soap and water.


you don't heat acid to boiling...adding acid to water causes heat, it makes water boil.
adding acid to boiling water willl cause an explosion.

I wouldn't even warm the water, adding several ounces of OA will start a heat reaction that will need to be stirred for over and hour at a constant speed to stop the overboil and possible explosion.

making one towell is easy but when it comes to hundreds...

wtf people, if you don't have Chemistry experience stay away from this until a true Tek is developed.
it will never be safe to make, it can be done, but somneone is going to kill themselves and give the biz a huge black eye.


jfc be careful. most here have shown they have no clues


----------



## camero7

WTF are you talking about... 

http://www.nutrientsreview.com/carbs/edible-glycerin.html

You are clearly a troll. It's not an acid and does not react with water.


----------



## homegrown

This treatment contains no water. It is a solution of glycerin/oxalic acid. Davidz, are you referring to the water you wash your hands with?


----------



## johno

The cause for concern would be if you were boiling the glycerin the added the OA you could possibly start forming formic acid which would be liberated into the surrounding air and could cause a few problems. For those who might want to try to mix small quantities I used a coffee machine that I use to melt small quantities of bees wax as the coffee machine heater does not get much hotter than 180F. There is a reaction when you stir in the OA to the heated glycerin and it is endothermic so the mixture cools quite a lot. But I think there has to be an easier way like perhaps spraying the mixture onto the shop towel. I have tried the mixture in a fogger and it fogs pretty good so maybe in the spring I will try fogging a few hives and check the results.
Johno


----------



## msl

camero7 said:


> You are clearly a troll..


not a chemist, but a quick bit of goggle will tell you his claims are accurate... over the top perhaps, maby foaming and drifting off topic…. yes…. but accurate 

a OA MSDS says http://www.chemicalstore.com/MSDS/MSDS_Oxalic_Acid.pdf
“Ingestion: Toxic! May cause burns, nausea, severe gastroenteritis and vomiting, shock and convulsions. May cause renal damage, as evidenced by bloody urine. Estimate fatal dose is 5 to 15 grams. 
Skin Contact: Can cause severe irritation, possible skin burns. May be absorbed through the skin.”

It is worth noting that your moving from a lethal human dose starting at 142cc (EPA OAD) to something were the LD starts at 10cc ( bob j’s 25/25) can be absorbed through the skin and is mixed with an osmotic agent to improve its absorption (witch is why it works and mixing it with water dosent)
When you are talking about making it up gallons at a time, you really need to step back, take a breath and take a hard look at your PPE and processes


----------



## beepro

In a little mite experiment I've done earlier, the mites are totally dead after 18-21 hours on top of the oa powder and burned oa crystals.
So instead of cooking the glycerine and then mixing in the OA powder, my variation of this method would be to lay the shop towels
on a shallow baking pan. Then sprinkle on the OA powder on the towel. After that spray on the glycerine until the towel is all 
covered. Let the towels air dry in a warm environment and then put them inside the brood nest between the frames. To make the
fine OA powder like the powdered sugar, a small grinding machine can be use. Make sure to not breathe in the FINE OA powder. Who would like to give it a go on this method?
Because this is still a rather new experiment, make sure not to buy in too much materials. It maybe good to read up on the OA experiment but doing it is another story. Once a small batch is working then you can buy all the materials needed to expand it further. This will ensure that your experiment is worth it in the long run.


----------



## RDY-B

OAKYDOAK- i have not even read the articale--but it seams to me that the cleceryin being hyporcopic
(meanig it absorbs mostiure ) is the release --oa mixed without a hyperscpoic would not relese--so 
is it a off gasseing of the OA mixed in solution of a matrix that is hyproscopic that gives it eficacy---
and if not then there would be just as a eficant relase with more of the behind to days thinking shuch
as oils and lard--after viewing a previous post that provided a link to the MSD natuare of food grade
glyicern its seams that the melting point is very low(around 65 deg farihiet)--seams like it would just melt away given the brood
nest temps-before mositure would be pulled in to the matrix and start a off gaseing in a hyporsopic fashhion
give me some pointers -very intersed in this--am only asking questions --so what say yea-- RDY-B


----------



## Swampsquash

Being that I live in FL, I'm really hoping this is successful. Granted it's something else to make...I find the vaporizing just doesn't get the mites well enough, because my hives never go broodless. This year is crazy, some hives have 5-7 full frames of brood already. I already seem to be fighting the mites...I alcohol washed a bunch of hives and got anywhere from 2% to 15% mite loads (I know some argue if alcohol wash is reliable). I'd really like to keep better control of the mite loads this year and become a better beekeeper. I made up 30 of Randy's towels and applied them to one of my yards by draping them over the frames on half and laying on top the other half. Curious to see if I notice a difference. If this is successful I will be sending Randy a nice donation for his efforts.


----------



## Bob J

+1 on the donation to Randy..... Keep in mind most of his excellent research is funded by beekeeper donations.....


----------



## Outdoor N8

beepro said:


> So instead of cooking the glycerine and then mixing in the OA powder, my variation of this method would be to lay the shop towels
> on a shallow baking pan. Then sprinkle on the OA powder on the towel. After that spray on the glycerine until the towel is all
> covered.


Why fight the law of constant proportions and risk 'hot zones'?


----------



## Swampsquash

Outdoor N8 said:


> Why fight the law of constant proportions and risk 'hot zones'?


Agreed...It wasn't hard to make I used a propane burner on very low outside...I put the oxalic through fine mesh to get chunks out....I warmed the glycerin and used a wisk to stir in the oxalic. I kept stirring on low heat until completely disolved (took very little time). Poured over the towels, let them soak for about an hour. Then placed between two pieces of plywood and placed in a large plastic container to collect the liquid that squeezes out. Put cinder blocks on top of plywood and let it sit for a few hours. My towels came out 2 grams heavier then Randy's at 33g (He stated towel should weigh about 31g). After 4 days in the hives I checked today. They seem to be doing fine. The bees are beginning to chew them in spots.

Not difficult to make, just please wear a face shield/glasses and gloves. Be safe!


----------



## jwcarlson

Does anyone have any idea how long the liquid or towels will store. Obviously I'd make the batch I need when I need it. But if there's leftover from the squeeze-out can I save it, say, for the next round of nucs I make up? Call it a month.


----------



## psm1212

Looking for some clarification. Does Oliver place a "dry" towel over the frames of EACH brood box in the hive, or does he place a "dry" towel over the frames of ONLY the upper brood box of the hive?


----------



## Bob J

psm1212 said:


> Looking for some clarification. Does Oliver place a "dry" towel over the frames of EACH brood box in the hive, or does he place a "dry" towel over the frames of ONLY the upper brood box of the hive?


In the article Randy mentions that his were "laid across the top bars of the lower hive body".....


----------



## psm1212

Bob J said:


> In the article Randy mentions that his were "laid across the top bars of the lower hive body".....


Thanks Bob. Read it completely twice and just missed it.


----------



## crofter

Forgive me if this has already been covered;

Is there any consensus about treatment affect on honey in supers? Will it be like Maqs which advertises allowable treatment with supers on or will the oxalic acid level of honey be raised above background levels if supers are not removed?


----------



## msl

I don't know about the rest of the world... but in the US and CA don't allow it with supers on


----------



## jwcarlson

msl said:


> I don't know about the rest of the world... but in the US and CA don't allow it with supers on


The US doesn't "allow" this treatment period.


----------



## msl

correct!
for clairy it should read "the US and CA don't allow oxalic acid with supers on" with the inference that if the new treatment was approved, being OA based it would be unlikly to be allowed when supers were present


----------



## crofter

jwcarlson said:


> The US doesn't "allow" this treatment period.


That is my impression. Am I correct in saying that MAQsII is approved for use with supers on? 

Looking at some of the recommended time frames to leave the OA/Gly strips on would seem to be overlapping times when hives would be commonly supered.

I am looking for some conjecture here or somewhat educated guesses as to how the OA/gly would compare with the Maqs regarding contamination of honey.


----------



## jwcarlson

Crofter,
MAQS is approved for use with supers on. I can't imagine OA on a shop towel would somehow make it's way into the honey because you're not 1) squirting it on them in sugar solution like OAD and 2) vaporizing it into a cloud and fills, then coats every surface in the hive. I'm more interested in using it in splits that wouldn't have supers on them anyway. Or even entertaining the idea of putting them on late winter/really early spring, when flying weather first starts, but I wouldn't do that this year. But I was supered up pretty early last year. I think by the 2nd week in April. So counting back from that, it might be plausable to apply them when I do my first inspection (usually mid-March) and they'd be *theoretically* removed by super time.

Probably not this year without having used them before. Maybe next year.


----------



## crofter

I just found this link to a writeup in Apidologie. Experiment in Argentina. Seems like reasonably well controlled experiment and points to there being no uptake of Oxalic acid in honey or wax. I think I am going to do some further meditating on this. Was talking to my son; with 30+ hives he is starting to feel the cost of Maqs and the need to observe temperature constraints. Oxalic vaporization is doing the job for me but the frequency of treatments required when brood is present is a definite drag on its use.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-015-0405-7


----------



## Swampsquash

crofter said:


> .... with 30+ hives he is starting to feel the cost of Maqs and the need to observe temperature constraints.
> http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-015-0405-7



I refuse to buy MAQS due to the cost, but I've had good sucess with this method: 

http://honeybhealthy.com/pads3.pdf

Instead of "meat pads" I use three blue shop towels folded on top of each other. I buy the Formic from ebay. With a helper I can do 30 hives in less then an hour and a half. I did this in the middle of summer in FL and had no major issues.


----------



## crofter

Swampsquash said:


> I refuse to buy MAQS due to the cost, but I've had good sucess with this method:
> 
> http://honeybhealthy.com/pads3.pdf
> 
> .


Have you followed their recommended volumes and pad placement?

I used bulk formic acid for a couple of seasons but I was shy of using it near the high end of temperature range. Have been using OA since but it is no silver bullet when there is a lot of brood rearing.
Formic acid is a good option to keep open and to work into a rotation with other methods.


----------



## Swampsquash

crofter said:


> Have you followed their recommended volumes and pad placement?


Yeah I have followed the Pads method to a T. I did it labor day weekend down here were it was still in the 90's. I didn't play with formic until I read this from randy oliver.....http://scientificbeekeeping.com/messin-with-varroa-2014/...where he used this study http://anr.ext.wvu.edu/r/download/37598 which is done by the same WVU people that did the formic pads study. I looked all over the net and ran accross the pads study (which is nice, because you don't have to build any special equipment). I think I may now actually build some fumigators out of old supers (I just love building stuff lol). Then I won't have to worry about having all the paper towels, wax paper, certain size entrance reducers etc etc etc. Regardless it takes a bit more work then appling MAQS but it's considerably cheaper.

I'm really curious to see the end result of the OA/glycerin towels I have on my hives now. I would love to not have to hit them with the OAV 4 times a week apart in the future....much easier to make and apply a towel.


----------



## beepro

JW, this is still new in an early experimental stage. Whatever is our findings we can share it here for all
to learn from. For the left over I would throw them away. To be more resourceful, measure out the amount of
oa + glycerine and how many roll of towels you need. Test out a small batch first and then double or triple up for
the number of hives you have to treat. I already got the oa + glycerine but choose to opt out of the treatment program
for now.


----------



## RDY-B

moving forward---this is my take --25ml of glycerin--25 grams of OA--this is a towel (1 towel )
1 gallon of glycerin =3785 ml--dived by 25--gives use 151 towels--------
so 151 towels needs 25 grams per towel-----3775 grams to do 151 towels--thats 8.3 pounds of OA
(seams like a lot to go into solution)---but that is where the warming of the glycerin is important---
so my big question would be DOSE THE OA STAY IN SOLUTION AFTER IT COOLLS TO ROOM TEMP
this is important --the reason is when the towels are made-can it be done in a beeyard with pre made solution

we run shop towels all the time--best way to do shop towels is cut the roll in half--you could mix a gallon
batch in a five gallon bucket--full rolls are not ideal in this respect--half rolls are easy to absorb in a gallon
of mixture--full rolls are not easy to work on the fly--if a full towel is required then two half towels are placed
--what i am trying to get is a way to do this with repeat success in the field--the warming of the glycerin would 
be the bottle neck-runing shop towels has already been perfected----what say yea--RDY-B


----------



## johno

When you warm the glycerin and start adding the OA the mixture goes cloudy and loses temperature so one has to continue heating and stirring until the mixture is completely clear. It can then be removed and stored, the OA remains dissolved in the glycerin, once added to cardboard or towels after a period of time the glycerin seems to evaporate and will leave crystals of OA behind. Anyway this is what I have found for what its worth.
Johno


----------



## psm1212

Oliver states that he heats the glycerin to the temperature of "hot coffee" before mixing in the OA. I know I read too much into things, but "hot coffee" is somewhat vague. You brew coffee just under boiling. You drink coffee just around 100 degrees. That is a 100 degree delta. Questions:

1. What temperature should I bring the glycerine before mixing the OA?
2. Should I use a respirator?
3. Can this be done safely inside on my kitchen stove top? 

I will only be making up a dozen or so towels and will only use the minimum amounts of OA and glycerin to make them. Thanks.


----------



## johno

I put this in another thread about glycerin and OA. I mixed about 200 grams at a time using an old coffee machine that I use to melt beeswax. Remove the top section of the coffee machine and only use the bottom heater. this is controlled at about 180F so you can not overheat the mixture. Do not use the glass coffee container, you need to find a metal jug to fit the hot plate. Heat the glycerin until quite hot then start adding the OA stirring as you go. an endo thermic reaction seems to take place and the glycerin cools quite a bit but just continue stirring until the liquid becomes clear. when I did this there was no emission of any volatile gas, although if you had to boil the glycerin formic acid could be liberated. Be careful not to get any in you eyes.
Johno


----------



## homegrown

johno said:


> I put this in another thread about glycerin and OA. I mixed about 200 grams at a time using an old coffee machine that I use to melt beeswax. Remove the top section of the coffee machine and only use the bottom heater. this is controlled at about 180F so you can not overheat the mixture. Do not use the glass coffee container, you need to find a metal jug to fit the hot plate. Heat the glycerin until quite hot then start adding the OA stirring as you go. an endo thermic reaction seems to take place and the glycerin cools quite a bit but just continue stirring until the liquid becomes clear. when I did this there was no emission of any volatile gas, although if you had to boil the glycerin formic acid could be liberated. Be careful not to get any in you eyes.
> Johno


I would not use a metal container! Pyrex glass pitcher for kitchen measuring would be much safer.


----------



## Eduardo Gomes

Safety is the issue. johno you have not seen any gas, however there may be the release of invisible and odorless gases. I'm not saying it happened, but it's a possibility. Is it not better to use a suitable mask until there is more certainty about this whole procedure?


----------



## johno

Use whatever you like, I have done this a couple of times using an aluminum container without any problems. I used to melt wax on the old coffee machine using the glass container that came with the coffee machine until that cracked one day and spread hot wax all over so since then I have stayed with aluminum containers.
Johno


----------



## crofter

http://teca.fao.org/comment/2319#comment-2319

Temperatures here. Recommended 55 - 58 Centigrade to dissolve the oa in the glycerine. From other bits I have read, holding at higher temperatures causes formation of tartaric acid and formic acid which will start to gas off. The idea is just to dissolve it not convert to the other compounds though some of the applied for patents seem headed that way.

None of what I have read speaks about flammabilty while heating and I have not looked up the specs on glycol but I will, or will do a small sample test before I would heat any amount of it in an open pan above an open heat source. 

If you use glass container consider a water bath not direct contact with flame or element.


----------



## beepro

I'm worried now!
The usual treatment is quick to knocked out the mite in 3-4 weeks session. If these strips or towels stay in
the hives all winter long 3-4 months and the bees cannot take the bits and pieces out of the hive, I wonder if the
mites CAN develop better resistant to the oa treatment this way. I mean the oa stays longer inside the hive not the
usual fast 3 minutes treatment using the oa vaporizer. Will it be better to treat one week before the new cap broods emerged?
Then let the towels sit for one more week before physically removing them from the hives. Concern, concern!


----------



## Oldtimer

In Randy's article he says the bees remove the shop towel in 3 to 4 weeks.


----------



## nicojav

there is some information about OA/GLY effect on queens or bees?, some beekeepers say if the strips are more than 4 weeks is detrimental for the colony, y say especifically with 4 strips per colony, mixing 1kg glycerin with 0,6 kg oxalic acid, and these quantity is for 800 strips.


----------



## pmshoney

BeePro, I have not yet played with OA and glycerine but plan to I was wondering if anyone had tried mixing it with canola oil in place of glycerin? I would like to hear your thoughts or anyone else's.


----------



## Swampsquash

Be careful if you use the glycerin/OA towels don't drape them over the frame top bar. In some of my hives the SHB larvae have hatched under the towels and the bees don't seem to be able to remove them. I have since placed them all on the top bars.


----------



## msl

pmshoney said:


> I was wondering if anyone had tried mixing it with canola oil in place of glycerin? I would like to hear your thoughts or anyone else's.


you need a polar solvent to dissolve OA.
a quick way to look at it is if it mixes with water it will likely dissolve OA... Ie rubbing alcohol and glycerin
if it doesn't mix, ie oil and water, it will not dissolve

while glycerin appears "oily", it is in fact an alcohol and a highly polar solvent and will dissolve much more OA per ML than water
also the glycerin causes the OA to be absorbed by the bee.. that is why OAD has sugar in it and it fails to work when used with plain water


----------



## beepro

I already bought the oa and glycerine. 
Since glycerine cannot be mix with water on the towels and
it is not a oil, I don't think the vegetable oil will work either.
Also the veggie oil is too oily for the bees to haul the towels out
of the hive. If you want to do this experiment try the crisco baking
oil instead. Melt the crisco oil first then mix in the oa powder. Finally
run this mixture through the towels. ONce the oils cool down this mixture
can be put inside the hive. Wear protective gears as this is a new experiment also. Do your research first
before making your own concoction. Crisco (baking) oil + oa powder!


----------



## homegrown

Randy says he is working on mixing in some rubbing alcohol to lessen the oilyness and encouraging the bees to remove the towels quicker. Won't the rubbing alcohol just evaporate once in the hive? Maybe this is the point?


----------



## chazman

There are a couple threads here on this subject now.

I posted my experience mixing and making towels in a ziplock bag here:http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?333119-Oxalic-Glycerin-Shop-Towels-a-promising-stopgap-flyswatter&p=1507377#post1507377


----------



## pmshoney

Swampsquash said:


> Be careful if you use the glycerin/OA towels don't drape them over the frame top bar. In some of my hives the SHB larvae have hatched under the towels and the bees don't seem to be able to remove them. I have since placed them all on the top bars.


That is a good point ty for bringing that up! SHB would love that hiding place they hide under hops guard strips too.


----------



## pmshoney

Ty msl, and beepro for your reply's I will be trying the OA/glycerin out this season it looks promising. We have had good luck with OA vapor but it is a lot of trips chasing bees when they are scattered out in yards. And other products have there own set of drawbacks as well. I see OA/glycerin as one more tool added to the fight!


----------



## Eddie Honey

Don't know if these were posted but they are easy reads:

https://honeybeesuite.com/oxalic-acid-and-glycerin-for-varroa-mites/

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/scibeeimages/2016-Beyond-Taktic-pdf.pdf


----------



## T.Smith

Has anyone used this method this year and if so what were the results. Just looking for feedback. Thanks


----------



## jwcarlson

T.Smith said:


> Has anyone used this method this year and if so what were the results. Just looking for feedback. Thanks


I think I'm going to try it earlyish in the spring. Once we get reliable flying weather and they've brooded up a bit more. Too cold for that until probably 3rd week of March to 1st week of April usually.


----------



## zonedar

jwcarlson said:


> I think I'm going to try it earlyish in the spring. Once we get reliable flying weather and they've brooded up a bit more. Too cold for that until probably 3rd week of March to 1st week of April usually.


Shop towel or strips?


----------



## jwcarlson

Shop towels a la Randy.


----------



## JohnSchwartz

Anyone tried adding 1/2 towel per single and/or double nuc?


----------



## Swampsquash

JohnSchwartz said:


> Anyone tried adding 1/2 towel per single and/or double nuc?


I put towels in my nucs, but just folded them in half and never had any issues


----------



## JohnSchwartz

Thx, Swampsquash


----------



## Oldtimer

Old thread revive I know, but hoping to attract the help of a chemistry buff who could help.

Background to my question is that over here in New Zealand, treating for varroa mites by hanging OA impregnated cardboard strips between frames has become quite popular. It is very successful at killing mites, the jury is still out about possible damage to brood and bees, results on that can be mixed.

There is a guy selling the strips commercially, and a bunch of people making assorted home recipes. This has all been going reasonably well until a few weeks ago when the commercial guy took out a patent, which has restricted what "home brewers" such as myself can do.

That's the background, now the question. - The latest batch I have made has been using a cardboard I have not used before. A couple of days after making this batch, it started getting a formic acid smell. I am wondering if this means the cardboard is somehow reacting with the OA and converting it to FA? Any knowledgeable chemistry people could provide insight?

Have shown a pic below of some strips installed in a hive this morning.


----------



## johno

Hi OT, from what I gathered when I played with this stuff some years ago you have to be carefull when dissolving the OA into the hot glycerin cause if the temperature of the mixture exeeds 140 degrees the OA in the mixture can start to form formic acid. I also found that when mixing the OA into the glycerin there was a reaction which increased the temperature of the mixture which would mean you need to really control the temperature. I wonder what this guy is trying to patent as the story about this mixture being used with cardboard strips has already been public knowledge for about 3 years emanating from some Argentinian beekeepers, I think if you did a search on B L archives you could find the original posting. I am not too sure on the max temp it could be 140 degrees F or around 60 degrees C


----------



## crofter

I have seen it suggested to heat just the glycerine to slightly over 200F. ~ 100C. then dump in the OA. That way the OA spends less time at the elevated temperature that causes the formic acid production. One might experiment with then adding a bit of high purity alcohol to aid dissolving and which will evaporate as the towels or cardboard cools and drys. I did prepare a batch of towels and stored some in a zip lock bag and they did smell a bit acidy after a while. Whether that would have had any negative effect on bees or not, I dont know.

I have been following the events on the forum that Oldtimer mentions; there have been lots of positive reports but a few mysterious troublesome incidents that have not been solved. Would be nice to have them out of the way before going whole hog. Perhaps temperature control during mixing is an issue. I am sure Oldtimer will be devoting his analytic powers to that!

I put some towels and cardboard strips in four hives last summer. Common corrugated cardboard separates and not suitable. I now have on hand some of the dense card stock about 70 thou. thick which is similar to the material used in the Argentinian patented strip, Aluen Cap. I will play around with it a bit in the spring.

Some claim they will knock down high mite loads but my personal take is that they are very good at maintaining LOW mite numbers. My experience is not worth much generally because I am quite isolated and am starting with very low counts. I also did several rounds of OA vapor so the net result was near zero mites when I put the bees to bed for the winter. Five of five are still alive as of yesterday. 

My main point to be on the lookout for is negative effects.


----------



## johno

OT I was asked to post this from a very Knowledgable beekeeper who for some obscure reason cannot post it himself,
Oxalic acid dissolved in glycerin is well known to rapidly form a mono ester with the glycerin. This mono ester is very easy to decarboxylate (remove one of the acid groups as carbon dioxide) which leaves behind the glycerin ester of formic acid. Any water in the system will then hydrolyze this ester to form glycerin plus formic acid. All of these reactions can take place at room temperature, but at that temp they are slow. However, at temps above roughly 60 deg C the esterification reaction becomes pretty fast and by temps of 100 deg C the decarboxylation reaction is very fast. This stuff has all been well known for over 100 years. In fact long ago one of the easy ways to make formic acid in the lab was to take oxalic acid and glycerin, which were both easier to get than formic acid, and simply heat the solution a bit above 100 deg C and distill out the formic acid as it forms.

So, am I surprise you and others smell something that smells like formic acid on oxalic acid in glycerin strips? No surprise at all. You would need to be really careful how you made them to avoid making any formic acid and even then on storage in a sealed container I would expect some formic acid to be made at room temp given enough time. I suspect at least some of the failures of such strips to kill mites is because they were over heated during preparation resulting in strips with little oxalic acid remaining.

This tells the temperature tale.


----------



## crofter

Thanks much Johno; That info clicks into place!


----------



## crofter

Check out this link. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP60hsPa38Q


----------



## Oldtimer

OK thanks guys. I very much appreciate that detailed hgelp, and it does seem that I likely overheated it.

I did not know that the process of converting into formic acid could continue even at room temperature.

Re the role of water, I recall from some years back that at one point Randy Oliver was adding a little water to his mix, then later, i think, he stopped adding water. But I can't find the references about that. Does anyone know what the rational for that was?


----------



## Oldtimer

We posted at the same time, great video Crofter.


----------



## Oldtimer

Johno I have posted that info to our local forum, much thanks to whoever the "mystery donor" of that information was, much appreciated.

And Crofter i have also linked your video in our local forum and had favorable comments on that also. Nice, simple, well presented video with no fluff.


----------



## johno

No Problem OT, the mystery donor was apparently banned for telling some idiot that that he did not know what he was talking about, if this continues there may not be many folks allowed to contribute to this forum


----------



## Oldtimer

Wondered about that, such is life.


----------



## chazman

I am glad this thread came back to life. I have had a lot of success with this method and have used this as my only mite reduction method for the past three years. I did some work with Randy O. originally and personally found that using strips hung between the frames was much more effective on the hive. Randy did not think this was a feasible method for a commercial beekeeper and wanted to pursue something faster. I am a sideliner with 20ish hives, not hundreds or thousands.

The Shop Towels may not be the perfect delivery method but they are cheap and working for me until a better solution comes along. I tried the cardboard, chipboard, and others more similar to what Maggi used and found it took much more time to cut it down to size prior to prep than it was worth. So I decided to take the shop towels and fold them into strips. Admittedly this is not a fast method for a commercial beekeeper either. I hang the strips on the frames by draping the end of one strip over the top and letting the long end hang down. You could also evenly hang a strip and not have the shop towel reach the bottom of the frame.

I feel like we need to get a strip solution that works like Apivar (with the plastic frame holder on the top) that has OA embedded in plastic or something that can be sold/packaged commercially. Basically this Shop Towel strip method is using the same in between frame method that the Apivar strips use.

I found the long release of this method keeps the mites low across multiple brood cycles and keeps killing for weeks, and the fact you can use it with honey supers on is great. I live in Florida where we don't get much of a natural brood break to use other methods effectively that require no capped brood.

Here are a few pictures of some things I have tried. NOTE: I no longer lay the towels on top of the frames as Randy originally tested. It makes a mess when you want to inspect the hive, and basically ruins your towels. If they are hung between frames you can inspect and leave the towels in place for multiple weeks/months until the bees remove them.
















NOTE: See how the strips applied below keep you from being able to do an inspection without destroying the OA Application. I no longer use this method.


----------



## wildbranch2007

chazman said:


> and the fact you can use it with honey supers on is great.


got to ask as I must have missed something, when did they change the label and allow this to be used at all, and when did they make it legal to be used with supers on? asking for many friends.


----------



## crofter

wildbranch2007 said:


> got to ask as I must have missed something, when did they change the label and allow this to be used at all, and when did they make it legal to be used with supers on? asking for many friends.


I believe the Aluen Cap strip has approval (or at least no condemnation) in Argentina where it is patented, for use with supers on. Presently they would not be an approved treatment in US. Since bees will not ingest glycerine and OA (unlike sugar syrup and OA) it appears not to contaminate honey.


----------



## msl

I would expect contamination from foot traffic and bee to bee contact, same meckasim the gets it off the strip an on to the mites. The hive is a giant pump to the suppers.. with receiver bees running a circuit form the entrance to the supers to drop of nectar

Meaningfully contamination is another story... the old X parts per billion of lead is alowed in drinking water etc, hopefully Randys studys will show some light on the subject


----------



## crofter

<Meaningfully contamination is another story...> Yes. Oxalic acid is a natural component of honey and glycerine is GCAS: generally considered as safe. One of the common components of lip salves etc. The amounts added to honey in supers would probably be measurable but insignificant. I would much prefer those to to the traces of some of the other concoctions presently being used as miticides and insecticides.

Some Spanish speakers may be able to chase down the approval studies done on the Argentinian product. Eduardo Gomes, where are you!


----------



## Oldtimer

The video that you linked just a few posts ago Crofter, is about exactly what a lot of beekeepers are doing over here, just here they are doing it on a bigger scale, thousands of strips into thousands of hives.

It is not especially time consuming as against other treatment methods. Me, I have the cardboard cut to size by a local print shop, it works out to around US$0.05 per strip. Or about 20 US cents to treat a hive (for the cardboard), then also the cost of the OA / GL mix, probably doubling that cost. It is under a NZ$ to treat a hive so probably under US$0.50. Hives are treated 2 times a year.

The only bit I do not like about the process, is it is necessary to wear rubber gloves while placing the strips.


----------



## crofter

I did not do a lot of digging to find the best price for the cardboard but for a trial that is not a concern. I double glove with the thin nitrile gloves. I usually use them single layer for most all my work on the bees so I am used to that. I think once you get a figure for absorption by whatever blotter material you use, you could get the fussing around to a minimum. I have a stack of 15kg. of the cardboard. Was thinking to run them across the table saw about 10 layers thick. It would fuzz the edges a bit compared to the sheared edge you get from the print shop.

I sewed up a few of the laminated drywall seam tape versions and decided that was not going to fly! Strips that get severed part way down by the bees will get layed flat on the bottom board for them to walk over. Still has some effect apparently. 

If only every link on the internet was as clear and concise as that one! Excellent signal to noise ratio.


----------



## ChrisE

I'm a new beekeeper and just recently came upon this method from Randy Oliver's website. When treating with OA/Glycerin has anyone seen any resistance or reason to treat with other methods at different times of the year? I currently use Apivar when there is no flow and OA vaporize at the end of the year when my hives are broodless. The OA/Gly method seems to be way more cost effective than Apivar, and in combination with a broodless vapor treatment seems like a great way to treat, especially if it gets EPA approval. Are there any downsides to moving to this method of treatment?


----------



## Oldtimer

At this time varroa do not seem to have developed any resistance to oxalic acid.

Yes there is a downside, which is that too much oxalic acid can weaken beehives, this is probably if it gets into the food supply and is fed to larvae, killing them. Larvae are most vulnerable to oxalic acid when they have just emerged from the egg. A symptom this is happening is brood going spotty after use of oxalic acid. You will not normally see dead larvae, because it is mostly very small ones that are killed and are immediately cleaned up by the bees.


----------



## Outdoor N8

I can't believe my 'old' thread has had over 39k views.

Subject matter must strike a nerve or something...


----------



## GerrieRPh

Just wanted to provide some feedback. 6th year keeper here, averaging between 3 and 7 colonies years 1-4. Year 5: Winter of 18-19 we went into the winter with 3, came out with 1. Zone 7 temperate climate, tends to be on the humid, heavy pollen side. Heavily populated with essential oil bee havers in the community. Did the usual 3 X OAV in August, but then tried the Oliver Blue shop towel experiment, placing 2 between the brood chamber in October. Left them on all winter, removed in spring. The 1 hive became 5 in 2019. Performed the same techniques 3 X OAV in August + blue shop towels over winter 19-20. 100% survival overwinter. 5 quickly became 20 this spring. We are repeating the experiment, only changing to bamboo towels, because of the mess of attempting to scrape off the overwintered blue towel remains. Our gals love to heavily decorate with propolis. Lets hope 3 years in a row becomes a trend! Best wishes all


----------



## crofter

Are the bamboo towels also referred to as reuseable dish cloths? I have some on hand to try. About 6" square and will soak up about 50 grams of OA/Gly mix. Will try some of the 70 thou. thick cardstock material to make hanging strips for between frames. I found the shop towels on frame tops a bit of a nuisance but appear effective. Not seeing any mites in drone brood that I have opened. Mite drops were near zero last fall so have been lazy about doing mite counts this spring.


----------



## Lolio

Hallo all, Oliver has changed the proportions of the solution, this year he is checking for oa/gly 1:1 weight/weight. With this proportion cardboards appears nearly dry and some oa re-crystallizes. Has anyone tried?


----------



## depauws

i am using a 2:2:1 solution ( by weight : 2 oxalic; 2 glycerin; 1 water ).
This solution cristalises at room temperture, so keep it at 40-50°C for application on the towels/cardboard ( you can keep your hands on).
The towels are "oily" looking with 20cc of the mixture.







The towel is draped over the top bar. 1 towel per hive for normal treatment.
The solution migrates to the ends of the pending towel after some time.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel

A couple of days ago a followup study was published. 

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01647954.2020.1806923

I did not read it yet, but I will.


----------



## username00101

wildbranch2007 said:


> got to ask as I must have missed something, when did they change the label and allow this to be used at all, and when did they make it legal to be used with supers on? asking for many friends.


Heh.


----------



## Radar

I bought a pack of similar OA from a firm in CANADA in about 1998, it was a grey coloured cloth material and you put a nail through the hole in the top and hung it between the frames, and the bees chewed it up and threw it out the entrance. from what I can remember it stayed moist and did not dry out


----------



## msl

update, moving on to swedish dish towels sort of like Erik Österlund's thymol pads seen here resistancebreeding


----------



## zabadoh

Another video q&a with Randy Oliver, with a few more details about the cellulose sponge towels, and his oxalic acid/glycerine mix starting at 25:45






The whole talk is interesting and worth watching, as usual.


----------



## zabadoh

Another research update from Randy Oliver: Pollen subs, rising temperatures in California, varroa control studies on new formic acid products, thermal treatment, and OA glycerine sponges


----------



## Swampsquash

Randy Oliver is everywhere right now!


----------



## crofter

Swampsquash said:


> Randy Oliver is everywhere right now!


He has done a lot towards developing the OA and Glycerine as a new tool for us. The Aluen Cap patented strip from Argentina is unlikley to get approved here but the work Randy is doing is blazing the trail for a US / Can. approved version. I think there are a few of us on the forum that have been playing with it.

Send me a PM if there is any interest in sharing notes.


----------



## Swampsquash

crofter said:


> He has done a lot towards developing the OA and Glycerine as a new tool for us. The Aluen Cap patented strip from Argentina is unlikley to get approved here but the work Randy is doing is blazing the trail for a US / Can. approved version. I think there are a few of us on the forum that have been playing with it.
> 
> Send me a PM if there is any interest in sharing notes.


Oh yeah absolutely! The oxy/gly pads seem to be very promising. I love seeing Randy around and doing zoom calls. I was thinking last year, that I wish Randy would start doing these.


----------



## Gray Goose

very interesting update from Randy

can confirm " different yards performed different" I have bees in 6 places, each is unique.

his warming graph was exciting, should be helpful for the northern areas.

good info IMO

GG


----------



## RobinWhite11

Hope this really helps. Has anyone already used this tool? How effective is it? I would like to know more about this.


----------



## 123456789

I'm doing some 'playing' with this.

Despite treating with Apivar, FA, MAQS, and OA vapor last year I still lost 60% of my hives. I laid off treatments during the honey flow and lost control. PMS caused most of my strongest hives to abscond. If I see that situation again I would sacrifice the brood (hindsight).

I have 600 commercial hives within 2 miles of my hives and the owner just doesn't take care of them. He has 18,000 hives and only seems to care about his almond check. With that in mind I need to stay ahead of the mites. I did hear he had huge losses this spring so maybe he will wake up?

I'm in Northern California just 150 miles north of Randy Oliver, so I'm hoping to get similar results to his.


----------



## GregB

Spadeapiaries said:


> I have 600 commercial hives within 2 miles of my hives


I would take advantage if this exact fact - to replenish my losses.
Trapping for swarms?


----------



## 123456789

Most are on Property I don't have access to but I did catch 4 swarms from a property next to one of his yards. As I said he doesn't take care of them. I drove by one of his yards this spring only to see 6 nice swarms in one tree.


----------



## GregB

Spadeapiaries said:


> Most are on Property I don't have access to but I did catch 4 swarms from a property next to one of his yards


You don't even need to be right next to him.
About a mile is just right.
I'd have a row of traps.
Sorry for the off-top!



> Despite treating with Apivar, FA, MAQS, and OA vapor last year I still lost 60% of my hives.


It shows though how you can be impacted by an external force - treat or no treat.


----------



## 123456789

I do have swarm traps near his yards but no luck in two years? The swarms I caught out of trees I treated with OA before they had any brood.

I helped them with a bear last year. It was the only time I was in their yards. Wingless bees were 3 deep in front of the hives. They saw that as well and did a panic treatment that seemed to kill most of the bees.


----------



## Outdoor N8

GregV said:


> It shows though how you can be impacted by an external force - treat or no treat.


I strongly agree with this: just as an individual hive has one stomach, the locality has one hive so to speak.


----------



## Oldtimer

Spadeapiaries said:


>


Spade is that your hives or the other guys hives?

I can guarantee you that putting in OA/GL strips like that will not do the job.


----------



## 123456789

Those are the other guys hives. I'm pretty sure they are using Taktic (12.5% amitraz) 1 to 1 on those strips. That pretty much makes the Apivar I used last year useless. ALL the commercial guys bend the rules and the county looks the other way. When I ask the inspector about it he just shrugged.


----------



## Oldtimer

Oh i see, yes taktic on those should work although it is certainly a lazy mans way of doing it.


----------



## 123456789

After 60% loses last year I got on the mites early with Apivar, and then went straight to OA sponges.

I saw some heavy mite drops in some of the new nucs I bought with the Apivar.
Since then I have not seen a mite! The sponges seem to be working Very well. I am in a dry climate just north of Randy Oliver but I did not expect to see "NO Mites"!

I have been watching bottom boards for mite drops, pulling drones out of caped cells, watching closely for DWS, & PMS and have seen nothing to indicate any mites at all. I finely got spooked and did some alcohol washes today and not a single mite.

Another factor is that the BIG commercial beekeeper that had 600 hives near me last year has been moving hives in and out but mostly leaving his yards up here empty. It seems as though he is moving new make ups up here just long enough for them to get re-orientated and then moving them out (about two weeks at a time).

Whatever the case I'm 'VERY HAPPY' with the OA Sponges!


----------



## Swampsquash

Spadeapiaries said:


> After 60% loses last year I got on the mites early with Apivar, and then went straight to OA sponges.
> 
> I saw some heavy mite drops in some of the new nucs I bought with the Apivar.
> Since then I have not seen a mite! The sponges seem to be working Very well. I am in a dry climate just north of Randy Oliver but I did not expect to see "NO Mites"!
> 
> I have been watching bottom boards for mite drops, pulling drones out of caped cells, watching closely for DWS, & PMS and have seen nothing to indicate any mites at all. I finely got spooked and did some alcohol washes today and not a single mite.
> 
> Another factor is that the BIG commercial beekeeper that had 600 hives near me last year has been moving hives in and out but mostly leaving his yards up here empty. It seems as though he is moving new make ups up here just long enough for them to get re-orientated and then moving them out (about two weeks at a time).
> 
> Whatever the case I'm 'VERY HAPPY' with the OA Sponges!


Yeah the OA sponges are great. If they just didn't crumble after a while


----------



## Outdoor N8

I know this 3-video-series, has been discussed elsewhere on B.S. but in part three *Aluen Cap* is discussed.
I would love to see this product imported for U.S. beekeepers and I look forward to their findings.
This thread is 5 years old and FINALY a research facility in the U.S. is going to test Aluen Cap.
Research projects on varroa mite treatments with oxalic acid with Jennifer Berry and Lewis Bartlett at the University of Georgia: Oxalic Acid Mite Treatment Research, Part 3 of 3

(on a side note- if you are not aware of Bob Binnies' videos, do yourself and your bees a favor, watch them)


----------

