# Side Effect of Swarm Trapping



## Mike Torda (May 20, 2016)

I have a swarm trap up that I have caught 3 swarms with this year. The trap is placed midway between two "bee trees" populated with feral bees (about 1/2 mile apart). I don't believe that there is a managed apairy anywhere near by. 

My question is, if I somehow manage to catch every swarm that these two feral populations cast off, will I be hindering the ability of these feral bees to repopulate the area? 

Assuming that a feral hive casts off 3 swarms a year, and only one of those is able to over winter, thus increasing the number of "wild" bee populations able to self maintain the population in the area. If I catch a couple of those cast offs,, do I decrease the ability of the feral populations to replace winter / pest losses in the next year, thereby reducing the total population of feral bees in the area long term?
My plan, if I am able to catch an additional swarm, is to put a hive body near the swarm trap and just raise a hive there. Allowing it to grow unhindered and cast off swarms to help the population of feral bees in the area.

What are your thoughts?


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## Northwest PA Beekeeper (Mar 28, 2012)

You only know of the two bee trees in your area - chances are there are several more.

One thing I have noticed is that feral bees seem to be able to overwinter better than us "bee experts". I know of 2 bee trees and one colony living in an abandoned house. The bee trees have made it through winter every year that I've noticed. The abandoned house has had a colony in it for the last 30 years - I'm told, and for the past 5 years that I've known about it they have made it through the winter every year.

And you are only catching the swarms that move in to your trap - there are probably several swarms that have found better housing than your trap.

So to answer your question, NO - you are not hindering the feral bees to repopulate.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Mike Torda said:


> My question is, if I somehow manage to catch every swarm that these two feral populations cast off, will I be hindering the ability of these feral bees to repopulate the area?


The answer to your question is "yes," especially if you are indeed catching every swarm these feral hives cast.

But the real question is "by how much will you affect the local feral population?" And that is a much harder question to answer, especially because you don't know how many of these two hives' swarms you are actually catching each year.

I would say that 3 swarms per year per hive is an optimistic number. I would guess that 1.5 swarms per year per hive is more realistic. If you catch 2 of the 3 swarms per year from the two hives, that would significantly reduce the odds of these two feral hives having much of an impact on the local feral population.

Obviously this is just generalization and some educated speculation on my part, but it illustrates the issues at play.



.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

The limit to the carying capacity of an area is subitibul nest sites, witch is why traps work so well.
given only 16% of swarms make it, I would say for the most part every swarm you catch is just giving another one a chance, unless you went nuts in an area


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

msl said:


> The limit to the carying capacity of an area is subitibul nest sites . . .


So, maybe the best answer to the question is; for every swarm trap you put up, you also put permanently install an empty box in a tree to house a new feral hive which will be left alone.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

I see no reason to push ferals over there natural density, distance from one another is part of the key to there survival.
No reason to put a box in a tree, I have a nice box for them in my yard that they can live in.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

As msl said only a small percent make it to next year.

From watching swarms from my hives. At best I will only catch 25%. I have traps in all direction. 

It's the bee trees we should leave alone. Once in a tree they should be off limits. The tree can produce swarm 2-3 swarms a year for maybe 10 years. I think I read the average was 6 years. It's a good source for feral survivor genes in your local area. A good source for drones to breed with. And even if they do die that tree can become reoccupied fairly quick.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

love to see that link for how long they last... I seen a few the put ferals at sub 2 years.. they were lasting longer post varroa then pre...
my "feel" is the immortal bee tree is a myth as any open spot would get take relative quickly 

to parphrase Michael Bush 
they are kinda like the vampires in the teen movies, they are immortal, but a lot of them seem to die all the time


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## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

> my "feel" is the immortal bee tree is a myth as any open spot would get take relative quickly
> 
> 
> > my "feel" is that your "feel" is incorrect. 16% of swarms survive yet there is enough to keep perpetual hives populated even tho they die out as fast as untreated crackhead bees. Thaws is your theory


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

msl said:


> I see no reason to push ferals over there natural density, distance from one another is part of the key to there survival.
> No reason to put a box in a tree, I have a nice box for them in my yard that they can live in.


Well said. How is a _magical feral_ hive better than a hive that lives in a stack of boxes where they get fed in times of need?


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

dtrooster said:


> my "feel" is that your "feel" is incorrect.


so lest run some numbers
.5 colonyes per km2
In a 8kmX8km area we should have 32 coloneys. 
Nests are the limiting factor
16% of the swarms to make it 
the hives are tossing and average of 2 swarms a year, this is huge low ball...rember were talking the volume of a single deep here with swarmy stock and there is no beekeper to cut cells to stop casts 
2x32X0.16 says 10.36 hives have to die a year to make room for those swarms....giving an average life span span of 3 years or less. real number is likely closer too 2 years

a good chunk of them simply swarm out in there 2nd spring and or fail to re-queen


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

On a related note, I don't need any more colonies, as I really don't have room or time to manage more than my ~6. 

But I want to keep a trap in my unused chicken coop throughout swarm season, to prevent swarms from infesting the hollow wall for a 3rd time. I've caught 3 already this year. 

What if I dequeen the trapped swarms and just combine them with my existing hives? Am I reducing the pollinator population? Or just concentrating it into fewer colonies?


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## TexasFreedom (Feb 25, 2016)

I don't see the concern. 

Basically, you can let feral swarms move into trees with high mortality rates. Or you can take the same genetics of the feral swarm and put it in a nailed rectangular tree (top bar or lang), and here they will have a higher survival rate.

It's not like you're moving them 100 miles away. And even if you did, it would be less competition in the area and existing feral hives will get more nectar. And that would make them stronger.

Another thing to consider is that the BEES are choosing your box. That tells me that there aren't enough quality locations (reducing their chances).

And remember, you're helping these genetics to survive. And in a year you'll likely be donating other swarms into the same area. You take, and you will give back. I see nothing wrong with a successful swarm catching effort. Well done.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Can you impact the amount of bees in any given area by trapping? Yes. Will it negatively impact the bees? No. Odds are, that if there are old enough trees to house feral bees there are more than one or two in the area. That being said, one hive can cast several swarms and maybe only a small percentage will take you up on your offering. Most will find other trees/homes to call their new diggs.
You are managing the population much like managing wildlife in a given area. Either we manage the pops or mother nature will. 
I have performed hundreds of cutouts over the years and without fail, these bees are much healthier and able to survive without any human intervention. My guess is that they are able to do so due to population density. Plainly stated, thousands of bees crammed into a very small area will be more succeptable to disease and pests that can/will wipe them all out. Mites and SHB are not an issue for feral bees that I've removed.


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