# Your last graft when...



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

July 13 this year.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

I have no hard fast rules about when I cease grafting. I usually produce until September if I have a need. So I guess my last graft would be somewhere around August 10th or so.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Beepro, why would you graft from one of your small headed commercially purchased queens when you have a good pollen frame raised big-head queen who makes lots of the good worker broods?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

O.k. since I run out of time this season to 
further my little bee experiment, this is the last resort
for a graft. Right now I have too many of the big headed
queens. So using the small head queen might give me a different
result but I'm not sure yet. It seems like no matter what they will turn out to
be the big headed ones this season. I'm very tempted to put a
small ring around the developing cells to make the queen larvae 
smaller. That might turn out to be the small headed queens with a
slender body like the commercial bought. I have yet to decide what to
do unless you have a good suggestion for me to do a few cells experiment for some
small headed queens. Any thoughts for me to turn them into the small head queens? Not even sure
if the commercial guy know the answer to my questions. 
To answer your question, I like to know if it will make a difference whether
or not I use the small head or the big head queens on these pollen frames raised
cells. Right now I have 10 such cells in development. Will they turn out to be
the big headed queens from the commercial small head queen graft? What exactly will caused these
small head queens that I like to know? I blame it on
the larger than normal green Rj production cell cups and the well fed bee bomb nuc finisher--Lauri's sugar bricks with
a sugar slurry, one pound homemade pollen sub in a plastic baggie and a quart of the sugar syrup refill when empty. 
One thing for sure I've used the most minimum amount of the bee resources to grow these cells. The big headed queens
had a very tight laying pattern that she rarely missed a cell from day one which I like. I only use 4 
pollen frames this time all packed tightly in a crowded young nurse bees nuc. So small head or big head this time?
JW, is this your last graft for the season too, if not when? 



Feeding homemade stuffs:


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

beepro said:


> JW, is this your last graft for the season too, if not when?


June 23rd was my last graft. But that was me ending it not the bees or the mating season. I really think I could graft around now and still get the queens mated and laying well enough to requeen production colonies for overwintering. Wish I'd have done one more round. Queens ended up selling a little better than I expected they would locally.

I ran four batches of roughly 15 mating nucs each... I need to make more mating nucs for next year.


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## m0dem (May 14, 2016)

jwcarlson said:


> Beepro, why would you graft from one of your small headed commercially purchased queens when you have a good pollen frame raised big-head queen who makes lots of the good worker broods?


haha.


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## m0dem (May 14, 2016)

beepro said:


> I'm very tempted to put a
> small ring around the developing cells to make the queen larvae
> smaller. That might turn out to be the small headed queens with a
> slender body like the commercial bought.


wat. :scratch:


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

jwcarlson said:


> June 23rd was my last graft. But that was me ending it not the bees or the mating season. I really think I could graft around now and still get the queens mated and laying well enough to requeen production colonies for overwintering. Wish I'd have done one more round. Queens ended up selling a little better than I expected they would locally.
> 
> I ran four batches of roughly 15 mating nucs each... I need to make more mating nucs for next year.


If you don't mind my asking, what were your sales like locally, and how did you advertise? I was considering rearing a few queens next year for a little extra cash.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

There was a post that we discussed the commercial and home raised queen's
head. So if you can point to that post to read up then you will be clear on what JW and I
are talking about. On second thought putting a ring around the developing cell will caused the
bees to reject the cell so I will leave them as is for now. Next season will have more time to do my
little bee experiment. Already at their 4th days, the developing cells are at 1.5" before they're even cap and
the larvae are at a decent size too. In the end they are the Cordovan queens so I don't know their head size yet.
Yes, the local queens are always in demands no matter what season it is here. Within a half hour advertising somebody
already asked for them. I have no issue selling them just because they are the gentle Cordovan bees. Somehow I learned 
that the new hobbyists prefer the blonde yellow Italians queens. And one thing special about these workers from the
mated Cordovan is that the local carnis drones will give off some darker bees. Instantly you can spot the lighter yellow
queen in the hive. This is very good for a hive check that I don't have to spend too much time looking for a queen right
hive. Other than the gentleness of the Cordovan bees, they are productive and brood up earlier for the almonds run. A
perfect combination for our semi-desert like bee environment here. 
JW, one advice to you for having so many hives is to house one half more of the production queens because coming out of winter you cannot get the early mated queens to requeen your dead out winter queens that did not make it. You have to
either wait or get the HI queens that some said are no good. So going to be lots of works for you if this issue is not resolved
earlier or have more queens to replaced the dead ones. Been there already trying to hunt for the early queens when half of the beekeepers are looking for the same thing. Right now is my preparation for the Autumn expansion with some after the
solstice mated queens. This issue of queen less hives will not haunt me again to finally put a stop to it. If any I will have more overwintered queens for my early Spring expansion be it the big or small headed queens. This is Mike Palmer and Mel's
expansion and long term sustainability models. For now I only brought in the genetics that will complement my apiary. A newly mated after the solstice queen is only 3-4 months old when Spring arrives. She will shut down brood production during the winter time. At the dawn of Spring she will expand the brood nest like crazy. With the mites all under control now using the HMOG when needed growing my apiary will not have any issues. So make a calculation on how many hives you have and how many more queens are needed for the dead queen replacement in the Spring time. If this issue is not taken care of then there will be lots of work for you. During the Spring time I like to expand to take advantage of the Spring honey flow when many flowers are blooming. Then make the summer queens using the cells on pollen frames method. Then harvest the Autumn honey for them to overwinter to further reducing the need to feed them. At the most I'm using all local resources efficiently! Learned all of these from the honeybees. Stash away for the tough times ahead!


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Nordak said:


> If you don't mind my asking, what were your sales like locally, and how did you advertise? I was considering rearing a few queens next year for a little extra cash.


I'll shoot you a PM.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I'd like to quit for the season, but I'm still grafting a little more. Hunting season is around the corner and my time will soon be redirected for a while.

If there is demand for mated queens late summer I need to have something to replace them with in the mating nucs I will overwinter. I've already combined some of the larger mating nucs to overwinter, but the smaller ones with mini frames I'll run one more round through them. (set cells until late August)

As I pull late summer mated queens, I'll combine the mating nuc colonies until I run out of equipment to super them with. Then I'll insulate some of the smaller ones that may be left and wish them well overwinter.

Better to have too many cells than not enough. That doesn't mean much to the average person, until you experience a shortage. Last year I took a couple small breaks with grafting. The break was nice but I regretted it each time. You're pretty much dead in the water without cells coming regularly. They don't have to be large batches, just a trickle to fill in if needed.


I have and will have plenty of drones until October, partially due to my regular & generous feeding of the large cell builder & breeder queen colonies. I've set cells as late as Mid September with normal results.

Here are cells I set just a couple days ago. These are better late summer cells (compared to last year) due to more strict supplemental feeding of breeder colonies & cell builders. Last year, my cells were very dark and I struggled to produce them. That inspired a better & more timely feeding plan for this year, and it worked.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Large colonies that have been occasionally fed throughout the summer currently have some drone brood & drones mingling within the colony.

Large colonies that have been on their own with no supplemental feeding still have drones, but they are congregated above the inner cover, on the bottom board and below the screened bottom if they can worm their way in there. It's the bachelor pad hang out, makes me laugh a little when I come across them clustered like that. 



































My frames with a half sheet of foundation provide me with a whole herd of drones to manage. Now early August, the foundationless sides with large cells are being filled with honey and far less drone brood. Good feed around the late summer worker brood, then fat headed into fall. Just the way I want it.









Some have said they do not want all those drones that will eat up all the feed! 

I say don't knock it until you've tried it. The benefit to a healthy population of drones is more complex than just assuming there is a mindless, worthless consumption of stores.

My hives have never looked better, been as break your back heavy and I have virtually no swarming issues other than a few mating nucs that got away from me. Bees look polished and I will likely only treat a few hives for mites this fall. If I had to describe them in one word, it would be 'clean'

Most here would be shocked to see how many drones my hives have during the main season.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...sheet-of-foundation-in-deep-frames-experiment


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Duplicate post -deleted


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Here's the info on those frames if you haven't seen it before.
I'll be updating that old thread this winter with more info and photos taken this season:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...mes-experiment


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Here's one of those dark cells from last year about this same time. Even thought the cell builder colony was fed, it wasn't fed early enough or consistently enough. I had several failed takes on my grafts at that point. I'd let the cell builders loose enthusiasm with the shorter days and lack of enough feed and it was difficult to get back.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

How come yours turn out black color and is that a healthy sign?

I have been experimenting on the pollen frames raised cells on minimum bee resources. Big and healthy queens!
Every time I presented a new method of doing things there are some here not too convinced.
Hope they don't twisted the tail and say it doesn't work. I also combine your
sugar bricks method with a sugar slurry. No more loose sugar for the bees to drag anything out. No need to mess with
the fondant anymore.


Pollen raised cells:


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## j.kuder (Dec 5, 2010)

beepro said:


> How come yours turn out black color and is that a healthy sign?
> 
> I have been experimenting on the pollen frames raised cells on minimum bee resources. Big and healthy queens!
> Every time I presented a new method of doing things there are some here not too convinced.
> ...


i guess you saw this article on raising queen cells on a pollen frame.
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/queens-for-pennies/


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Nope, have not read it before. Mine is much more simpler to do.
I use full pollen frames for the cells and not cut them out. Bee breads are too
valuable to be thrown away using his method. Each pollen frame have certain 
area dedicated to plant the grafted cells.


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## jooky (Mar 18, 2016)

my bees tossed out the drones a few weeks back here in Portland Oregon.. no drones = virgin queens


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I do not know for certain when they will throw out the local drones here.
Today is my last graft of the season. Cannot help it because of the nice hot
weather 90F we're having now. One more month and everything will turn cooler around here.
So thought to take advantage of the warmer weather and make a final graft of the recently
bought Cordovan queen again. Hope the seller did not sent me a vsh queen. That I'm not
responsible for. Hopefully some will take out of 27 grafted cells. If only 5 will return and mated I will
be very happy this queen rearing season. So....


graft away:


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## AAIndigo (Jun 14, 2015)

My last graft was saturday? Not a strong graft, looks to be around 20 but will through into my 4 frame queen castles on Tuesday and see what happens. Lots of drones still here in Ma. Will cull out week queens and start a few nucs before winter


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I don't wait that long to see if the grafted cells will take or not.
The next day after the graft I will go in to check on the accepted cells.
The ones that passed will be transplanted into the pollen frames so that the
cells can grow bigger. On the day before being cap I will cut out the cells to
place them in mating nuc made up 2-3 days before with the bees even out.
This way the cells are all full of RJ when they are cap.


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## m0dem (May 14, 2016)

Just found my queen got mated. First eggs today, Sep. 1.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

On the last batch I got one last queen mated and going 
through the cells now. I should of waited for the other queen to lay too. 
Too late now. She's probably dead by now somewhere.


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## Let_it _Bee (May 21, 2004)

I just did my last graft August 30th, the latest I have ever done. There are still plenty of drones in the hives here.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Here's where I quit.
Last graft frame was a good one, not a lot of cells but nice sized and well fed.
I wasn't quite able to place all the cells though. I had just a little more demand for queens than I could produce this year, so mating nucs were harvested on time and regularly. I just didn't have queens that were ready to collect when these cells were ready since all the queens in the mating nucs were quite young. But like I said, better to have too many than not enough.

I held the last few virgins over in a queen bank and over the next 6 days was able to distribute some of them, but not all.

























I considered doing one last graft after this one, but needed to wean myself off the busy queen rearing routine to get back to my other life..gardening, canning, harvest and fall clean up. I can get away with a few hours of bee work in the morning (feeding and fall prep) and get to other things. 

Glad I didn't do another one, weather here has turned cool and rainy and that September morning fresh snap to the air is refreshing.

One reason I did a couple extra August graft frames was because I had the fire station across the street do some training a couple weeks ago. They came over and told me they would be landing a chopper and were worried about the bees. I thought it would be OK, but what they didn't tell me was they were going to be doing this all week, several times a day. I had virgins out getting mated of course and wondered if I would see a reduction in returns..Luckily, every mating nuc I've checked so far has come up queenright.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POx8k1eOtsg

This one was a test daughter from a good looking 2016 queen out of one of my favorite 2014 breeders. She just had a silver dollar sized patch of eggs so back in the mating nuc she went after I snapped this pic. She was one out when the chopper was about.









Rearing and overwintering these late summer test daughters gives me an insight for choosing new breeders that will eventually replace the older ones.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

They couldn't find a place 100 yards down the road to land the chopper? 

I'd be a little worried too if there was day-long chopper traffic.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I actually like the activity at the fire station and Sheriffs range across the street. As long as it doesn't impact my activities here too much. 
What I was concerned about was, the trainees were landing in between power lines and a high chain link fence up on the hill behind the landing area. One wrong calculation and I could envision the special effects scenario of a Tom Cruse Mission Impossible movie.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Check on my 27 graft cells today. And transplanted them onto the 4 pollen frames inside
a fairly strong finisher nuc using 2 times of Lauri's fly back method 2 days apart on 2 nuc hives. 
Will be a strong and crowded nuc tomorrow. 
Only 9 took this time. Blamed it on the slow graft that it took too long to
put the grafted cells back into the starter nuc. Many had dried out on the little RJ they had in the cell cups.
Will put in there right after the graft next time. This I have to make some adjustment to bring in
the whole nuc with the nurse bees inside the grafting room. Then I have to make up the pollen frames nuc
ahead of time. Either that or continue to perfect my non-graft frame for the queen to lay directly into the
cells. Now, we're in an early Autumn flow this year. Already they're bringing the yellow pollen for storage. Anticipating
that this will either be a fair to very dry winter again. 
This time I will not disturb the developing cells for 12 days while the bees are feeding on the honey + syrup and
2 lbs. homemade patty subs. If 4 make it back this time and laying I will have some nice Cordovan queens to overwinter with. Will see at the end of this month!


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

How's head size looking?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

What I found out was that the recessive traits of the Cordovan queen carry the
small head size. So the queens have a slender body and small head.
There is no way to change that. My only option is to try to
feed the developing larvae better so that their bodies are a lot bigger. Leave it
by themselves they will have the slender body as they are genetically program to.
I do not mind their smaller head as long as they are good laying queens. So far all of the graft
queens either big or small head have good laying pattern as long as they are well fed. I also found out
that using Lauri's fly back method and the pollen frames planted cells method will increase the RJ deposited.
Just over night half of the green plastic cell cup was full. On you tube the vid show a closed nuc system to
raised these cells. With Lauri's fly back method the foragers continue to bring in resources for the hive. This
will keep the young nurse bees well fed in return take better care of the developing cells. So this last round of
graft cells enjoyed a double up foragers population and pollen frames because our Autumn flow is just getting
started.


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## Outdoor N8 (Aug 7, 2015)

August 8th, all pupea hatched but not a single Virgin queen became a viable layer. Live and learn.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Sorry to hear it N8. Had some September queens get mated, one thing about Cali, forage may suck, but bees are abundant. I still see drones and drone brood in a few hives as well just last week in some of my urban hives..... but I know some have been getting the boot as well.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Down here in my county, the drought is severe, and the nectar flow that produces GOOD QUALITY queens is over in late June / early July, with an exception in 2012, when I had one late rain that actually helped.

I like to have the nucs up and increasing long before the mid-August mite treatment, after which I usually need a good number of queens.

I find far better success rates pulling a queen, then combining with a nuc, then back-splitting some to the old queen than taking chances with open-mated queens. It seems they mate, but the drones sperm are either no good or low in count.

Open-mated queens made in the Spring when the drones are numerous are my best bets. They prove out by making nuc' colonies that increase through summer. Joining these with strong colonies that need a queen after a mite treatment has been working well for me.

I hope for a year when it rains 4", then a month later another 4", then again a month later, etc. for 7 months in a row (yeah, and monkeys might fly out of my butt). Then I could reasonably graft into September and expect excellent results, but until then, my last GOOD graft is probably about June 1st, if I get any sage bloom. After that, the quality just goes down hill.

150 miles North of here, there was enough late rain to make queens well into August this year. I did not get any of it here.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

The 'problem' with rearing quite a few late summer queens is you have to do something with them in fall to prep to overwinter if you do that sort of thing in your climate.
Some of my mid August reared-late August emerged crop(s) were used in my own hives, some were sold, some (cells or virgins) I was not able to place due to 3 grafts in 3 days that were all successful. But you never know if they will all be good cells or not, so when the opportunity arose with a good frame of eggs and larva from my favorite breeder, I took advantage of it.

I didn't need to overwinter so many mating nucs, but that's where I ended up again this fall, so now in October many have been combined into doubles and were prepped for overwintering. Recently they all got a generous feed shim in preparation for their winter sugar block.
In previous years I have overwintered mating nucs in small configurations ( 5 half sized deep frames) but that was partially just to see how hardy they were and exactly what I could get away with.
This year most have been combined so they have a larger volume of both bees and feed. They were fed well and may not need the block, but I'll put it on anyway. 
I like having no worries in mid winter when weather is cold & ugly for extended periods of time.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Here is how most of them are configured.

Divided nucs, supered with more mini frames from combined colonies.
They have held up well for a few years hanging on my fence, but unfortunately I missed cross nailing the box joints on this bottom box and it let loose.inch:

Queens were on their respective sides, no fighting, no cross over. They get along well this time of year, even if I get shrinkage on the divider and they have large enough gaps to mingle somewhat.

















I usually ratchet strap them together to help hold the weight, secure the lid and keep them from sagging, but I hadn't gotten to all of them quite yet.









Here's a double mating nuc with some honey comb topping the frames. I just had a foundationless frame collapse on me and put it to use here. Same usage as a sugar block. Before I close them up for good, I'll check to see if they've done anything with it yet.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Cute picture number 4 there Lauri, with your horse reading your hive notes through the fence...


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

RayMarler said:


> Cute picture number 4 there Lauri, with your horse reading your hive notes through the fence...


That's the Alien Apiary inspector.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Lauri said:


> That's the Alien Apiary inspector.


I have more than one in my neck of the woods


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## AAIndigo (Jun 14, 2015)

beepro said:


> I don't wait that long to see if the grafted cells will take or not.
> The next day after the graft I will go in to check on the accepted cells.
> The ones that passed will be transplanted into the pollen frames so that the
> cells can grow bigger. On the day before being cap I will cut out the cells to
> ...


Well I found out the hard way. Young queen emerged and went to town. I will transfer as soon as capped and move to new nuc.


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