# aggressive bees



## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

Idea:
Split the brood frames between the two deeps. Place a Queen Excluder between the two deeps. 

Look for the Queen as you split. If you don't see her. Then come back in 4 days and look for new eggs. Now! You know know which half she is in.
Now look very closely by setting each frame in an extra deep off to the side as you check them. If you still don't see her then check in the empty deep after you have checked all the frames.

If you don't see her, Then put a new bottom and lid on the box she is in and move it 25 feet away. All the older bees will return to the old location and the old hive. wait one day.
Put new queen in old hive where old queen is NOT.
Now look again for the old queen with the reduced number of bees in the hive you set aside.

When you find her. DEATH to the Queen!

Do a paper combine of everybody back to the original hive.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Good Advice,
Also make sure you have enough drones to produce a queen now. It might be a little early.


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## ChristopherA (Jul 20, 2010)

I would title this as defensive or overly defensive bees. Bees only protect thier home, thus making them defensive.


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## wes1945 (Jul 3, 2010)

Chris, I appreciate your response. You are probably right, they may be over defensive, but when I cannot walk within 50 feet of them without a couple of them coming after me, something is going to change. I ordered a new queen today, and as soon as she is shipped, which will be April I will take the advise given and sent the present queen " to a better place". She cranks out lots of brood, but they are not friendly girls.


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## ChristopherA (Jul 20, 2010)

AHB maybe?


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

jrbbees said:


> Idea:
> 
> If you don't see her, Then put a new bottom and lid on the box she is in and move it 25 feet away. All the older bees will return to the old location and the old hive. wait one day.


You could further split into nucs and than check for brood in each and have less frames to search.

Dan


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## wes1945 (Jul 3, 2010)

Chris, I hope not. We have not had any around here---yet. I hope I'm not the first.


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## msapostol (Sep 6, 2008)

I don't know if your hives are by people and their homes, but I would do as advised previous since beekeepers can help stop the spread of AHB.


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## Eek-a-beek (Oct 9, 2010)

In the mean time, before you can re-queen, you can reduce the aggressiveness of the hive with a ploy. Bees fly to the light at night. Make sure you turn out all the lights and stay where you are not a silhouette against a light background. After dark get a good fire going in a hibachi, suit up, then bang on the hive (gently) with a hammer. You can get an even more dramatic reaction if open the top or if you add some imitation banana flavor to water and spray it at the entrance or both. This will get the bees mad and they will come out to attack... the fire! The ploy will eliminate the most aggressive individuals in your hive. The next day the hive will be back to its old gentle self again.


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## Risky Beesness (Dec 29, 2010)

> This will get the bees mad and they will come out to attack... the fire! The ploy will eliminate the most aggressive individuals in your hive. The next day the hive will be back to its old gentle self again.


Seriously?


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## Eek-a-beek (Oct 9, 2010)

*@Risky Beesness *

I think it is a combination of the flickering of the flames, which makes it seem alive, and the light itself which they fly to. I found this out by accident when I decided to take down a bee tree and the sun went down on me so I lit a campfire to have light to work by. The bees kept flying into the fire. Later I noticed that when I leave stuff out that I should not and go to get it after dark then any bees on it that I shake off on the porch end up flying around the porch light and any that get inside go to the kitchen light on the ceiling. They really do fly to the light, and if a fire is a bright light near the hive then if they come out at all then they will fly to it. If you disturb a hive then the most aggressive individuals are the ones that attack first so it is easy to get rid of them.


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## summer1052 (Oct 21, 2007)

Wes, AHB are confirmed to be in every county in the Republic. I would catch a couple of bees from the hot hive and send them to Aggieland. Your county extension agent can help. For $25 you can have proof positive one way, or t'uther. 

Beyond that, I would assume for now that your hive picked up some AHB blood, and give serious thought to re-queening this spring.

For what it's worth, AHB are not aggressive, in the sense that they are truly out to get you, personally. But they are hyper-defensive. And they want you to leave. Now. Quickly. And a few friends are coming along to reinforce the point. This distinction is admittedly lost on a lot of people. 

Eek-a-beek, that is an interesting idea. I'd actually like to try it someday. But honestly, in a potential AHB situation, this sounds like poking at the hissing snake to see if it has a rattle on its' tail or not. I dunno if this is the best experiment to attempt, or not. Maybe after enough Shiner Bock for anesthetic purposes.

Summer


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## wes1945 (Jul 3, 2010)

Eek-- At this point I have nothing to loose. How far away do I put this fire. So my project for the day is to rake a big pile of leaves and see what happens tonight.

Summer-- I do need to send a few to the boys in College Station, will call County agent this morning. Will requeen as soon as possible which looks like the first part of April. 

This is absolutely the best place for info I have ever seen, especially for those of us who want to do the right thing . Thanks


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Wes, i have had AHB's and two or three bee's coming out to greet you is not indicative of AHB, having said that there is no harm in getting them checked. Since I am a suburban beek I have to closely monitor the disposition of my hives and I am quick to requeen any hyper-aggressiveness. However I must say in all my years of beeking and reading I have never heard of the "hibachi idea".....most aggressive bees come out first?? Sounds like a wives-tale to me but hey, I never claimed to know it all 8)


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## Eek-a-beek (Oct 9, 2010)

*@wes1945*


> I cannot even walk around within 30 ft. of them and...
> How far away do I put this fire


When I was working on that bee tree at night the fire was about ten feet from the tree. I would say as close as possible without the smoke going towards the hive. I might try five feet. Obviously it must be within 30 feet in your case.

You want a bright clean flame without smoke which is why the hibachi is a good idea; you can get the flame nice before approaching the hive. The pile of leaves idea will work or not depending on whether the hive gets hit by a cloud of smoke from it. If they smell smoke then they will back off from an attack.

*@NasalSponge * 
We will see, lets hear what Wes has to report. Like he said, he has nothing to lose.

We all know that bees have different duties in the hive and that attacks are initiated and waged by what are called guard bees. These are middle aged bees having grown weary of nursing but not having yet become enchanted by the joys of foraging among the flowers. Neither nurse bees nor old field hands will join in an attack except for under extreme circumstances, that is especially true of a night attack. The first wave of attackers will all be guard bees. Guard bees do attack a skunk or other animal that comes scratching at the hive entrance at night.

The difference between an aggressive hive and a docile one is the level of provocation that triggers them and how many bees come out. In a mixed hive where the queen mated with some AHB drones, but not exclusively, there are bees of different temperaments. Those that are Africanized will be triggered first and be in the vanguard of the attack. If the level of provocation would not have caused a mass attack by European bees then few of them will join in. The trick is to either provoke them just enough or to douse the fire after the first wave of attack so as to get the Africanized bees but not the European ones. The worst that is likely to happen is that Wes rids his hive of guard bees completely.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Wes, You could invite all us beeks to the house warming  and charge admission!  :lpf:


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## wes1945 (Jul 3, 2010)

Bee Bliss, believe me I made sure no one was looking as I felt a little foolish, but I tried. Maybe the fire was not flaming enough, but when it was flaming pretty good, I went around back and tapped the hive. I did not open the lid, but I saw no bees flying into fire. I am not about to say this does not work. If I had an electric bug zapper, I would try again and if I can find someone that has one, I will try again. You never know what will work and I appreciate the input. For now, I will just call them all kinds of bad names when they come to check on what I am doing and will be forced to put on veil when mowing. It has helped my arthritis as they have me moving much faster then I used to. Thanks Wes


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

wes1945 said:


> the 2nd hive has been very aggressive for months. I cannot even walk around within 30 ft. of them and 1 or 2 of" them heatherns" are all over my head and arms. Is this just a matter of changing queens? I could not find the queen yesterday, but there is one becuase there is plenty of brood. Thanks in advance. Wes


Wes, back in the '70's I had a hive of "junk yard dog Italians"... I swear they were Mafia offshoots! Several would check me out as I approached... and they'd chase me 50-100 yards. It was in a row of six colonies, each about 5 feet apart. I learned to work them last. However, that colony produced double the honey of each of the rest. 

FWIW, "1 or 2 of them heathens" all over you checking you out is just a nuisance. Are they stinging, or just letting you know they're there? I know you're getting stung. And perhaps the queen has a touch of AHB semen in her that causes some of those bees to be like that. Could be that semen will run out, and other eggs she lays will be more "normal." 

How was the honey production of that colony? And where is it located in regards to trails, paths, areas people frequent? Life is a series of trade-offs, and a "mean" colony that out-produces the rest of yours hands-down might, _might_ be worth keeping. But that's a call only you can make.

Then again, do you want the risk (or joy :lookout of that aggressive gene getting into the drone pool in your area and possibly spreading to your other colonies thru natural requeening? It does get interesting, doesn't it?
Regards,
Steven


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## wes1945 (Jul 3, 2010)

Steven G. honey production was good last year. Since these were new hives, I took very little honey from them for myself. I did not have to feed them over the winter at all. I have been feeding megabee patties and 1:1 syrup for about 2 weeks now and the queen is cranking out those babies. Now if I can convince my wife, that them coming to see her while she is on the front porch is ok, I will keep her ( the bee queen). Other than that, if I would like my wife to stay here, I will need to re-queen. (There are times when option 2 sounds better). It is cloudy today, so I have not been back to check on them as yet today. And yes it is just a handful that come greet me and sometimes that just head butt and sometimes they remind me who is in charge. Thanks


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Was the night temp warm enough for them to come out. That might make a difference.



wes1945 said:


> Maybe the fire was not flaming enough, but when it was flaming pretty good, I went around back and tapped the hive. I did not open the lid, but I saw no bees flying into fire. Thanks Wes


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## TwinkieBee (Feb 21, 2011)

I would suggest requeening. You said you ordered a new queen so start with that and see how it goes. Any queenless hive can become aggressive no matter how gentle if they are queenless long enough.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would requeen. Sooner rather than later.


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## TexasTim (Oct 20, 2010)

Once in a great while I have a hive go hot on me. I do not care the "reason"- I squash the queen. If there is one hive among 30 that I dred working and I break out in a cold sweat as I walk near it- she is a gonner.

To me, bees should never just come after me as I am walking through the yard or whatever. Even just a few are to many. I do not care if it is a great producer. If I am scared to work it, forget it. It is not worth the extra honey.

A good hive is one that minds its own beeswax. Unless I am banging on the hive or disturbing them in any way, they best ignore me as I do them.

As a rule, I do not purchase a queen, I simply let them requeen on their own and that has always solved the problem. Since I quit treating in 2008, I do not particularly want to bring in other genetics. Everytime I have, the new hive has sucumbed.

The bottom line is that your instincts will tell you something is wrong with a hives attitude. Your requeening, as near everyone has said is correct, proves your instinct is good.


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## wes1945 (Jul 3, 2010)

I have decided to re-queen. As Michael Bush said " sooner better than later ". Finding a mated queen now is very difficult. If someone knows where to get an Italian queen, please let me know. Thanks


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## TwinkieBee (Feb 21, 2011)

Try Russell Apiaries. www.russellapiaries.com

Awesome bees!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

As TexasTim pointed out, just disposing of the old one often resolves the problem, if you can't find a new queen. If you can, they may calm down sooner. In my experience a new queen often calms them down quite quickly, too quikcly for it to be her offspring that change the temperament, which is why I'm not so sure it's genetics, but still requeening seems to be the solution.


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## wes1945 (Jul 3, 2010)

Michael Bush and Texas Tim, are you saying to " send her to a better place" even if I do not have a new queen, and let them make there own now. I am seeking advice and the hive is not enjoyable to work. Lots of bees, at this time.


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## NasalSponge (Jul 22, 2008)

Yes, let them make thier own.


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## Eek-a-beek (Oct 9, 2010)

http://www.stingshield.com/lebas.htm

"...in what the author refers to as "The Great, Boulder City, Fourth-of-July, Firecracker, Killer-Bee Caper," the closest resident decided to drop firecrackers down the top of the hollow near midnight on the Fourth of July. This resident had invited friends over to attend holiday festivities with a novel grand finale: the removal of unwanted honey bee occupants. The dweller at this location told the author that he and his guests devised a strategy to scare the bees away and then waited well into dark to attempt the removal. After an M-80 military firecracker was discharged in the tree-hollow, the trunk began "humming" with the sounds of thousands of agitated bees. Then after dropping a pack of 100 flashlight firecrackers down the hollow, the bees came out in the dark, identified their target silhouettes, and 'got even' with the party revelers by stinging four of them. One might say that the bees had their own "July Fourth" party as well. The four 'victims' were not seriously injured but rather, frightened into a new level of respect for the Africanized Honey Bee..."


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael Bush and Texas Tim, are you saying to " send her to a better place" even if I do not have a new queen, and let them make there own now. 

I am. But IF you can find a new queen that is a quicker solution.

>I am seeking advice and the hive is not enjoyable to work. Lots of bees, at this time.

Requeen either by taking the old one out or by taking the old one out and giving them a new one.


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

At this time of year in Nebraska if you kill the queen without a replacement queen in hand or a couple of days away you might as well kill the whole hive, because there's know way they will make a queen that gets mated this time of year..... Thats what I think


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## Radford (Jul 13, 2010)

I had\have a hive like that. I was told to requeen the hive or just kill it because they maybe Af. Bees. I just let them be now they are eazy to work with. I got them in May 2010 I belive they may have requeened the hive them self. They are still in a wire spool so I put a deep box on top of the spool and they are drawing comb I hope to get some orange blossom honey in a few months. Good luck. I am new to Beek I started in May 2010. Good Luck.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I'd send some of the bees off to the world's best bee brain trust, the Bee Research Laboratory, 10300 Baltimore Blvd., Building 476, Room 100, Beltsville, Maryland, 20705, (301) 504-8205 to determine if they are African Honey Bees. Your state bee inspector will want to know about it if they are. Tell him/her. You'll do yourself proud to make a good friend of the inspector. Make him a lunch, or a dessert. He is your local guru. Please DON'T tell the media first. In fact, do what you can to keep the media away.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>At this time of year in Nebraska if you kill the queen 

True. But they are in Maryland...

It's hard for me to adjust to the differences in timing in different places. But I would not kill a queen unless there are drones flying for sure.


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## summer1052 (Oct 21, 2007)

Eek, if only 4 people got stung, I doubt it was an AHB hive. An AHB hive would have been far more likely to sting everyone in sight, chase the less than sober idiots inside, and keep them there. They would have continued to be cranky about it through the next morning, at least. Fifty or more stings would have been more like it.

Come on down here to south Texas, and I'll introduce you to some AHB hives.  Bring lobster. I'll trade with catfish and Bay shrimp. You will absolutely LOOOOOVE your girls after a run in with some genuine cranky critters.

Spring thaw heading your way yet? All y'all been walloped this year by Ol' Man Winter! 

Summer


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## Eek-a-beek (Oct 9, 2010)

*@Summer*
If I'm down Lavaca county way I'll look you up, catfish and shrimp sure are good, but you'll have to keep those cranky AHB critters to yourself. No doubt they are nasty. That only 4 people were stung was because everyone ran off into the dark, it was night after all, and it is surprising actually that 4 were stung despite that. The attacking bees must have been numerous to get so many targets so quick under such conditions. Furthermore, the number of bees killed and disabled by the m80 in close quarters, not to mention the other firecrackers, would have seriously depleted their ranks before the attack started. I am a bit surprised by the outcome Wes reported but I suppose it was too chilly and the provocation too mild. I am sure shaking the bees off the combs, so they have to climb back in the entrance, in conjunction with a banana oil spray would get even the mildest of Europeans going even on a cold winter night.


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## JimK (Apr 7, 2011)

A giant tree was down and a hive in it. I put on my bee suit and smoked the area well. Took out comb and some bees. Some of the most aggressive bees I have ever met. Even 200' feet or more away they were very angry and would chase anything that moved. I do not think they are AHB. Any thoughts if I should keep these bee's or just let them die out? I took a close up picture of one and it seems Italian. Oh they hit me 7 times through my full bee suit. Oh I should mention it was cloudy and windy. Could that have something to do with it?


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