# undecided b/w two table saws



## balhanapi (Aug 22, 2006)

I want your help in deciding b/w a craftsman table saw model  21806  

and ryobi table saw model  bts20 

I was almost decided on craftsman until now when I read reviews about ryobi, also I remember one of our beesource members bought the ryobi to make top bar hives. 
Thank you 
ps this is a gift from the wife but I need to decide by tomorrow


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## flathead (Nov 1, 2006)

*fences make the difference*

I have an old craftsman my neighbor gave me to rip with. Its ok but I really like the Ridgid I got from Homedepot.

The Craftsman is for ripping and the Ridgid for dados. The reason is the difference in fences.

Whichever saw you choose, buy as much fence as you can afford.

I think the Craftsman may have more choices for aftermarket fences if you decide to upgrade later.

A smooth, accurate fence will make days in the shop a pleasure.

Good luck.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I wouldn't buy another craftsmen if it was the only saw on the market, i'd chew through the wood first. You might better buy the robyi, or look at the ones grizzely has.


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## balhanapi (Aug 22, 2006)

You guys are confusing me further Grizzly has bigger saws than what I require. This is going to be my first table saw and other than an occasional home project I will hardly use it. Bee boxes mainly


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

All the more reason you should buy the right saw the first time. Dad always had craftsmen saws. So that was what I got. The $700 radial arm couldn't cut a straight line if it had too. I still use it, because I can cut peices out fast on it, but I have to cut them long so I can square them on my grizzely.

Craftsmen...............can you say cheap imported junk?


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

peggjam said:


> I wouldn't buy another craftsmen if it was the only saw on the market, i'd chew through the wood first.


Peggjam, tell us how you really feel...Don't sugar coat it!


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## Beekeeper1958 (Sep 25, 2006)

When I bought my replacement 10 years ago I bought a Makita.
At the time it was no more expensive than a crapsman or many others.

Craftsman are usually underpowered in my opinion.
The Ryobi's I've had experience with don't hold up but that's my experience.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Check out Bosch with it's stand on wheels. Great fence. I love this saw!!
May need to find a special on it, if I remember it's a little higher priced than others.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Those two saws are essentially the same. They are both direct drive, ie the blade is mounted on the motor. That's not good for accuracy. Motor bearings aren't designed for that type of application. A belt drive saw will have the arbor mounted in it's own bearings creating a much more rigid and accurate saw. Belt drive saws are typically called contractor or cabinet saws. I see older Delta (Rockwell) contractor saws for sale in that price range all the time and they are a much better value. Check craigslist.org and local penney saver papers as well as the closest major market newspaper. Beyond that, the single most important thing on your saw is a good fence. The biesemeyer type is bullet proof, accurate, and easy. Lots of people now clone it.


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## okb (Apr 16, 2007)

Those two are the same saw. I agree with Ross.
I wish you knew the problems I went thru with Delta and their saws recently. I learned a whole lot in a very short time. Anyways if I had to do it again Id buy a used saw.
But it depends on what you are wanting to do with it. Even then Id find a nice used saw.


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## Tommy (Oct 9, 2005)

peggjam said:


> All the more reason you should buy the right saw the first time. Dad always had craftsmen saws. So that was what I got. The $700 radial arm couldn't cut a straight line if it had too. I still use it, because I can cut peices out fast on it, but I have to cut them long so I can square them on my grizzely.
> 
> Craftsmen...............can you say cheap imported junk?


I have 2 -10" radial craftsman saws and they both have an adjustment for making sure that the saw rips or cross cuts correctly. Over a period of time they will get out of adjustment and have to be corrected. Tommy


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## balhanapi (Aug 22, 2006)

Thanks all for the responses. After thinking about it for a while I think I'll let this opportunity pass I'll save some money and get the bosch 4000-09 instead. Who knows maybe I'll get a good deal on that saw. Its a popular saw as far as I have seen... 
I agree that it is worth stretching your budget to buy a quality saw instead of something that will remind you every time you use it..

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/prod...cal=TOOL&subcat=Table+Saws&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes

is this a good idea?
Thanks you guys are great!


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

The table saw is the heart of your shop. Go out and find a good used table saw somewhere.

I bought a used Delta contractor's saw 20 years ago, it has been great. I upgraded the motor over the years, added a dust collection / outfeed system, added a fence (that cost twice what I paid for the saw!) but overall it is still heads and tails above anything else you can buy for twice the price including the upgrades I have made.

If you can't find something on Craig's list, go to or call a local tool store and see if they have anything they took in on trade. Go to the local lumber store and see what is on the board

ps
I have a craftsman radial arm saw I will GIVE you!


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Tommy said:


> I have 2 -10" radial craftsman saws and they both have an adjustment for making sure that the saw rips or cross cuts correctly. Over a period of time they will get out of adjustment and have to be corrected. Tommy


You can come over and adjust it for me......I've tried, and it just doesn't work, no matter what you do.


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

BerkeyDavid said:


> The table saw is the heart of your shop. Go out and find a good used table saw somewhere.
> 
> I bought a used Delta contractor's saw 20 years ago, it has been great. I upgraded the motor over the years, added a dust collection / outfeed system, added a fence (that cost twice what I paid for the saw!) but overall it is still heads and tails above anything else you can buy for twice the price including the upgrades I have made.
> 
> ...


I'll have one to give away as soon as I can talk the wife into thinking the spot would be better occupied with a real saw.


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

peggjam said:


> You can come over and adjust it for me......I've tried, and it just doesn't work, no matter what you do.


Peggjam,

It's a Zen thing...... After 25 years me and the saw are one. I just built
a bunch of nucs in just a couple hours. It was really nice to cut the bottom board and have the rectangular nuc fit properly. 

Hint: It starts with a framing square that is actually square (most are not). A friend who does cabinet work told me about this. At your hardware store or improvement center find an expensive aluminum level to use as a test base.
Start by taking any pair of framing squares and place them back to back on the aluminum level rail. If the squares are truly square the edges will touch all the way from top to bottom. If they seperate, either at the top or bottom then they are not square. Keep sorting until you find a good pair.

Fuzzy


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I can adjust radial arm saw, any brand. They all work about the same. Craftsman has a problem of under-speccing fasteners. The first thing you do is upgrade all the bolts to grade 5 bolts so they don't stretch, then your adjustments will stay for awhile. There is a specific sequence for setting up a radial arm and deviating will cause you grieve. 



> Start by taking any pair of framing squares


 and what if they are both out in opposite directions? The only way to check a square quickly is the Pythagorean theorem, otherwise known as a 3-4-5 (or 6-8-10 depending on the size of the square) triangle. Measure 3 units down one side, 4 units down the other side. The distance across the opening between those two points should be 5, exactly. If it's not, it's not square. It doesn't matter what the units are, they just have to be all the same. You could use your foot if you wanted to as long as you are accurate. This is how pyramids and other ancient structures came to be laid out accurately. In colonial days, they did it with a 13 knot rope (it's a test, try it, all it takes is 13 equally spaced knots). I timber frame. It's a rule in most shops that when you hear a square hit the floor, everybody stops and checks their square. You just don't bend an 8x8 timber into position.

I host a forum for Wood magazine on their website on old tools and machinery. I love hand tools and big old cast iron machines.


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## xC0000005 (Nov 17, 2004)

Ross said:


> I love hand tools and big old cast iron machines.


Man would you have loved talking with my neighbor when I was growing up. Worked both metal and wood (though he preferred metal), did so on a shop that looked like Doctor Frankenstein's lab. His lathe still had the pole drive sticking up into the air where it had once been powered by a water wheel. His press was the same age - I'll never forget helping him weld a tank AROUND it, then pour motor oil into the tank until it was full. "It'll work when I'm done", he'd say. He was right.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

balhanapi said:


> I want your help in deciding b/w a craftsman table saw model  21806
> 
> and ryobi table saw model  bts20
> 
> ...


Earlier this year I did basically the same thing you are doing now. I decided on the BTS20, I have been very pleased with my decision and the Ryobi saw. I have currently dedicated this saw to using a stacked dado set for dado cuts, I ordered the optional throat plate insert Ryobi sells for using the saw with a dado blade. It saves the time and trouble of creating a custom throat plate, and performs satisfactorily. So far my main task has been to recut the box joint tenons in medium super ends that I have cut down from 10-frame to 8-frame size. My model is the BTS20R.


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

peggjam said:


> I'll have one to give away as soon as I can talk the wife into thinking the spot would be better occupied with a real saw.


Peggjam, ahhhhh, would you be paying shipping to Owego NY too? Sounds like a bargain at twice the price! Put my name at the head of the list pulease!

LOL, just kidding and I hope you get the saw you want!


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Jeffzhear said:


> Peggjam, ahhhhh, would you be paying shipping to Owego NY too? Sounds like a bargain at twice the price! Put my name at the head of the list pulease!
> 
> LOL, just kidding and I hope you get the saw you want!


I got a Grizzily cabinet saw, it works good, but it is not set up to cut out the number of pieces I need to cut, in the time I have to cut them. Ironicly, I have a real cheap sears saw that I use for a dado cutter, it works much better than the radial arm does.

I think the new ones are just plain junk, the old ones were proably built here in the good ol US of A. I'm not kidding, even free, this saw wouldn't be a good deal.......


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"I can adjust radial arm saw, any brand. They all work about the same. Craftsman has a problem of under-speccing fasteners. The first thing you do is upgrade all the bolts to grade 5 bolts so they don't stretch, then your adjustments will stay for awhile. There is a specific sequence for setting up a radial arm and deviating will cause you grieve."

The way the saw head mounts to the arm is real wobbly, I don't think it was ment to be that way, as just cutting a crosscut, if you want to, you can torch the head a 1/4 inch left or right. But that's not the only problem with it. You can't line up the rip from front to back and have it stay in line the lenght of time it takes to tighten the bolts. I love the thing for the speed of cross cutting, but you have to cut them long enough to square them on the other saw.

My Grizzily has a fox fence, which is ok, and it sure is heavey.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

>I see older Delta (Rockwell) contractor saws for sale in that price range all the time and they are a much better value.<

Boy, that's the truth. I still have the Rockwell saw I bought in 1974. I've made thousands of bee boxes, bottoms, windows, cabinet doors, and too much other stuff to mention. Still works great. Easy to set up. Plus...I can still get parts for it at delta.com


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...i found a 1967 delta/rockwell 10" radial arm saw locally on craigslist. i've done a fair ammount of manufacturing work (musical and medical instruments), and have a good deal of machine shop experience...but limited woodworking experience.

a saw like this, or a dewalt, is like a machine tool, holds adjustments very well (it's all cast and weighs a lot), and has the turret head for mitered cuts.

with this, a cheap skill saw, and an 8" craftsman table saw, i've really enjoyed building equipent this year.

for ripping, the table saw is the best, but almost everything else seems easier on the ras.

deknow


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Peggjam, you can tighten the head on the arm. The slide bearings are mounted on eccentric bolts. Loosen the lock nut and turn the bolt to tighten it on the slide. It actually moves the bearings in and out, so you can get it as snug as you like as long as it still slides. You'll need to remove the sheet metal arm cover to get at the bolts from the top. You can also take the slop out of the column itself. This is a good book..http://www.mrsawdust.com/
There is also one by Roger Cliffe that I have that is pretty good, but not a lot on setup.


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## shylock3 (Jun 8, 2006)

*Ridgid*

We had a similar thread last year, a guy got rid of his craftsman and bought a ridgid. I did the same, I like the ridgid better, no plastic parts to break easily. I don't think any of the craftsman tools are the quality they use to be.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

True, but you can make them work. For that matter, Delta, Powermatic and others are not what they used to be. I have two 12" Deltas. One has a steel elevation gear, the other is plastic. Guess which is which.


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## balhanapi (Aug 22, 2006)

*You guys are just great!*

Thanks a lot guys for saving me from a lot of hassle later on... I like the bosch saw better (it is 485 on amazon cheapest right now) and try to find a deal somewhere. mean while I will try to find some used rockwell-delta saw. I do like the folding style better though. 

There is one on ebay right now, lets see what you think of this one. the guy says he bought it a little over a year ago. It is within driving distance from me

http://cgi.ebay.com/BOSCH-4000-09-1...ryZ20789QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

as always thanks a lot..


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Under powered and over priced. Never believe 'Peak HP' ratings. Ever see a 6HP shop vac? You should be able to buy a real saw for less than the opening bid. Direct drive saws just aren't very good. Making beehives involves ripping material most every time. Ripping takes horsepower, a good fence, and a solid work surface or it becomes frustratingly slow and dangerous. Having to baby a board through the cut just makes it easier to screw up and get a kickback IMHO. Do you ever plan to cut plywood. It would be very dangerous to try on a table top saw. The bearings aren't designed for the loads of a dado blade either. Here are a few more good comments....
http://www.woodworking.com/ww101et-table.cfm


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