# Cluster at the very top



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

We have a lot of cold in the north country and the bees will not be able to use that bypassed honey until the interior of the hive warms up enough for them to warm that honey up and pull it into their location. You need to put a shallow super box on or a 2 1/2" feeder rim on, wet a news paper directly on the top bars and pour on most of a ten pound bag of sugar. You don't want to be repeatedly entering with little dabs of sugar and DO NOT put sugar on the top of an inner cover! Too far from the bees if it gets as cold as it probably will. The coldest part of the winter in just starting. Just get it done on a warm day and if a warm day isn't coming, a still day.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

This is just a guess, but I would think that if the bees were out of food at the top of the hive because they chimneyed straight up, and the outside temperature permitted it, they would move sideways or even down on a diagonal to get to new food, but maybe this is just hopeful thinking. John


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

In my location it seems as soon as it gets really cold they all move to the top, I assume because heat rises and it's warmer there. Mine spend the winter there.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Thanks for the responses. I have a 2" rim on already and put as much sugar as I could fit on top of the newspaper. I was trying to disturb the cluster as little as possible and didn't want to put the paper over top of them. Unfortunately this limited how much sugar I could put in.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> Mine spend the winter there.


Do they break cluster on warm days and bring honey up from below, or do they have to survive on the top medium of honey?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

It may be related to the top entrance too. Since I converted to top entrances a few years ago most of my colonies stay near the top over winter, heavy or light. Lighter ones have newspaper and sugar on the top bars.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I have been watching my bees with periodic checks through glass sides (in top bar hives) for three winters. In all cases, the bees cluster at the top - right away; as soon as it freezes - near the entrance end, and stay in one place all winter. The bees must move to get food and return to the cluster during warm spells.

Last year, I had one hive that maintained two clusters - one smaller than the other, all winter.

From what I've seen this year in my langstroth hives, it's the same. The bees went right to the top to cluster and have stayed there.

Adam


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

Mine are nearly always up the top by the end of December and pretty much stay there all winter long. Most of the time, when I get a dead out due to starvation the honey in the hive is all gone. Even when they start out on top I rarely get a dead out because they didn't (or couldn't) move. It's because they ate more than they had even if it was below them. Most of my starve outs occur in the late winter when the bees are getting warmer and start to consume their stores more quickly. I rarely worry about bees up top in the winter unless I know the hive was light to begin with and then, I worry no matter where they are.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

When I had tbh's with observation windows the bees always stayed on the front 7 or 8 combs all winter long when hive had about 25 bars in it. Right now with my Lang's about half are at the inner cover hole and the rest are down lower than the top box, can't really tell how far down though without taking the inner cover off which I won't do with it this cold. From past winters some hives get to the top much sooner than others, the ones that get there in December stay there the rest of the winter with no additional food from me and come through just fine. You have to be confident that the top box was full of food though in the fall so that you don't worry too much! John


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

zhiv9 said:


> Thanks for the responses. I have a 2" rim on already and put as much sugar as I could fit on top of the newspaper. I was trying to disturb the cluster as little as possible and didn't want to put the paper over top of them. Unfortunately this limited how much sugar I could put in.


 Just put the paper over them and wet it so when the bees chew thru, the dry sugar won't cascade to the bottom of the hive. Then slowly pour sugar so you give the bees a chance to move. I am wondering now too if the top or in my case upper entrance does indeed result in the bees at the top. Some clusters are still well down in the column the last time I looked.


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## Wesbee (Oct 16, 2012)

I have 2 deeps,in early dec I checked the top one and it was full of honey and pollen all but frames 1 & 10 so I added 2 frames of really old honey,and they have been working on those frames every since. the way I know is I have a sbb that I pull the tray and the outside is where most of the debris is.it's been cold here,below 0 some nights and highs from teens to 30 
I have a quilt on top with a1 1/2 by 1 1/2 inch opening that has a 5/8 in hole for top enterance and vent . the bees are up in the opening every day and if I put my hand over the hole they do fill the hole with bees right away and they are not happy!


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## stajerc61 (Nov 17, 2009)

Well I had 29 live December 21st. I finished wrapping the hives on that date. Most of them were at the top but still heavy. I'm Slovenian by heritage first generation born in this country and since Slovenians have a highly respected history in beekeeping I read their sites. The Slovenes put supers
of honey under the cluster during late winter inspections claiming that the bees stay at the top where the warmth is. They just put a piece of newspaper over the top frames to absorb moisture. I've fed dry sugar in the past just to find it packed in supers later. I think if they are at the top it's ok. I'm with Bush on this one.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

interesting. i have a single deep with a single medium on top. mine are mostly in the deeps, but going up to get honey in the medium above and moving it down. 

they have begun brooding recently. i am guessing they are needing to replace the aging and dying winter bees they made back in september, and getting ready for the first blooms due here in about a month.


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## SilverBack (Dec 10, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> first blooms due here in about a month.


Sigh


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I worry about hives that are light, not about where they decided to cluster. Worry about things you can control. You can give sugar to a light hive. You can't really rearrange a hive in winter without causing more problems than you solve.


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## Happy Honey Farm (Feb 14, 2010)

I live in central NY and just looked at a few of my hives they all are heavy with honey, some of the bees are at the top and some are at the bottom, I believe they move up and down the hives following there stores of honey.


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## hilreal (Aug 16, 2005)

Interesting discussion as I ran into the same issue a few weeks ago when doing my final pre-winter check. What I found confusing is when 4 hives are adjacent to each other and 3 are below and 1 is clustered at the top. I am with Michael in not trying to fix it by rearranging things. Just put on the newspapre and some sugar and left them alone. If they die from clustering in the wrong place best to get them out of the gene pool.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

took a quick peak in two today. one was in the top, and one was down below.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Picking up at squarepeg's post, think I'll inject a southern perspective into this northern discussion. May take me all day to type it. First off, recognize that a part of the bee's fall format (instincts) is to regulate population to be proportional to stores and cavity size. The effects of that regulation often has the colony with substantial brood volume when field forage is shut down by freezing temps. That would be the colony that perceived too few bees to be proportional. When that happens, there is no field nectar to backfill the broodnest when the brood hatches out. They "know" they can't winter over empty cells -need feed inside the cluster to have fuel for warming during wintering. About first freeze, or when the brood hatch-out is complete, the cluster is relocated upward onto solid capped honey. Sometimes happens overnight on a milder weather break between colder periods. Note that the colony did not "eat" their way up there - relocated as a unit.

Many different factors affect the ratio of population to cavity volume/stores going into fall preps, but it seems to be associated primarily with the seasonal forage pattern. We had two different seasons here where a substantial percentage of colonies relocated up on honey. They "normally" get the broodnest backfilled here, and reliably winter in the bottom. Being further from the source of cold air masses, our fall season is more gradual and the bees get it done. Not so in more northerly areas where fall is shorter.

Walt


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

Studies done on hives wintered in the north showed that the cluster moved or started in the bottom box in fall and moved upward during winter. I will assume that the researchers observed this in the majority of hives.
Walt has a good point on honey stores and no doubt some clusters will behave differently depending on feed location.
Most northern hives are packed away in Oct/Nov and because of weather are not inspected until Feb/Mar so it makes it hard to know exactly how and when the cluster moves. When I ran doubles a few clusters were still in the bottom box in March, some were half way up into the top and some were mostly in the top box.
Now that I winter in singles the cluster is hopefully found where I left it.


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