# natural cell, is it small cell?



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

If they were mine , I would be very greatful for the progress they have made this year and allow them to contune on their own (for now).

Next spring, when they are generating new wax, I'd let them make MORE natural-size cells in as many frames as the like .


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

John F said:


> I started 3 lang style hives this year, all with foundationless frames. One got a little off so I had to move their comb to swarm frames which I intend to cycle out.
> 
> Now two of the hives are moving up into their third box (8 frame mediums with 9 frames per) and I feel they are fairly well established.
> 
> If my goal is small cell, do I need to do anything else? The regression text seems to imply starting from large cell hives and I imagine that starting where I have I should be somewhere in the middle. Do I need to measure the cells and start a program of cycling out combs or have the bees done fine on their own?



My goal is just to have chemical free, healthy productive bees. I could care less what exact size the cells are. JMHO


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

'Small cell' seems to be used to refer to foundation or plastic comb with a 4.9mm ish cell pattern. So it is just as 'artificial' as any foundation, but smaller.

'Natural cell' is what the bees build themselves. And that's what I would vote for, every time.


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## John F (Dec 9, 2005)

spunky said:


> My goal is just to have chemical free, healthy productive bees. I could care less what exact size the cells are. JMHO


Hmm, I guess this describes my goals too, actually. I may be confusing some of the benefits ascribed to small cell as being only possible by small cell.

I also may be confusing small cell to a specific cell size and not a class of foundation as buckbee has described.

So a little different question I suppose: If you read the thread about Michael's inspections it appears that he (and naturebee) do not have to think too hard about varroa. I don't want to either. Am I on that path?

(Sounds like I am)


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I'd say yes, but with conditions. SC is ok, but I think that it is only part of the answer. I think gentics will play an equal role with sc, and that you will need to monitor your hives until you are sure that they are handling the mite loads enough without your interferance. I have done both sc and natural cell, with my preferances moving towards natural cell. But I have had fully regressed hives crash, while the ones right next to it did fine. But having said that, I have also quit propping up hives that are suseptable to mites, as I don't really want their gentics in my breeding program.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>gentics will play an equal role . . .

IMJ, gentics are the KEY.

W/ the right gentic base, you could "paint the hive pink, use 4 flat rocks on the top cover along w/ a 4-leaf clover" and you will not have a mite problem.

BUT! Bees that make smaller comb w/ their OWN wax (along w/ no added chemicals) might make the 4-leaf clover work better 

Keep your bees on "natural comb", and keep looking for the 4-leaf clover!


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

JohnF,

Coming to the close of my 2nd spring flow without foundation, I would say if you want small cell hives sooner, you should use some small cell foundation. We are running this SARE experiment this year, (see http://www.acbeekeepers.org ) and seeing foundationless hives build up beside standard foundation hives puts things in perspective. Towards the beginning to middle of the flow and buildup, they do great without foundation, but towards the latter half, they tend to make more of a mess (too fat comb, comb not aligned properly, mostly large "honey storage" comb, etc.) Looks like at least 1/3 of the foundationless comb will be useless for brood rearing and will need to be moved out next year. Thats after leaving some drone comb on the outside edges. The hives with foundation are building all beautiful comb. So anyway, in my non-experiment hives, I'll be using a combination of foundationless and small cell foundation next year.


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## John F (Dec 9, 2005)

Interesting bit of discussion.

Peggjam, how important do you see cell size being? Dave W argues that it really isn't important.

MichaelW, it isn't so much that I want SC specifically but the ease of operations with respect to mites/etc. that Michael Bush and Joe (naturebee) see. They each attribute at least part of their success to smaller cell sizes which I may have confused with SC specifically.

I have noticed some of the quirks in the natural comb that you describe and have never seen comb on foundation so I can't make a comparison. I've just cut out the parts I can't work with and leave it at that. I am not aware that I should be viewing the comb as being brood worthy so I am wondering if you would mind explaining why some comb needs to be moved out.

My experience so far, all three hives were started with virgin foundationless frames made by stapling the wedge piece sideways to the frame:

One hive built their first combs such that from frame end to frame end the comb would span three frames. When I first saw this I pulled out the empty frames and carefully pulled out the combs and putting them in swarm frames and the hive has done fine since.

In one hive, for some reason I haven't figured out, one of the near center combs has a short (about 3 inch) section that attaches at the top outside of the frame. All of the rest of the frames from there out have to match it. I haven't done anything with this yet as it does not hinder my checking frames (it probably will hinder moving frames around though).

Sometimes they bridge combs. I have to break that to get the frames out. Sometimes when they start something new they go at a bad angle. For example, I came across a frame in which they had turned the end of a comb to an angle. I just broke it along the top and pushed it to be straight with the frame. They glued it back straight.

In fact, I have cut out chunks that wouldn't work for me and they fix it. To the point that in one swarm frame I had put two pieces of comb with different cell orientations and when I saw it later they had oriented all the cells the same direction.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Do I need to measure the cells and start a program of cycling out combs or have the bees done fine on their own?

I would. They draw different sized at different times for different purposes. I want to end up with something between 4.4mm and 4.9mm in the core of the brood nest.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm


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