# How many bars for wintering



## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

My top bar has 1 1/2 & 1 1/4 bars which one do the bees use for honey and which for brood?
How many bars show I expect to leave for the bees to winter well?
The bees have been in for two weeks on the 27th and I will go in on the next warm day, it has been cool or raining pretty much since I put them in.
Thanks


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

They will do whatever they want. But what I want is for them to build the combs on the bars and the brood combs will be spaced 1 1/4" and the honey tends more towards 1 1/2". So I would feed the 1 1/4" into where they are building brood comb.

It depends on the width, the volume, the size of the cluster etc. But in generalities if you're in a Northern climate you need about 75 to 100 pounds of stores. Assuming a one by hive not counting the cover (I have no idea how heavy your's might be), it should weigh about 120 to 150 pounds going into winter, same as any hive. With a small TBH this is probably pretty much full.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

Thanks for the info. the top bar I built was from the material list from your web site so however big that is would be what I could winter with. I am just checking to see how much I could harvest and still leave enough for the bees.
Rick


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would shoot for mostly full of stores other then where they are clustered. Some of this is a matter of harvesting only a little at a time. Some of it is being good at predicting the continuation of the flow and feeding if you're wrong.


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## Merlinspop (Nov 4, 2010)

I just started on a week ago. I'm not planning to harvest any this year, unless the hive is completely stuffed before the end of summer with more coming in. I'll wait till the dandelions bloom next year to see if they have an excess left over.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If the hive gets full, you may need to harvest to keep them from swarming.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

Michael,
Thanks, I just went in after having the new swarm in the hive for one day under 2 weeks due to cold and rain here in Missouri. I am making a video of the mess. The top bar was already about half full and the comb was going across the bars instead of with the bars. I tried to take comb and put it on some of the bars correctly and the other half I just seperated each bar and put empty next to them. I will check about every other day now to see how it comes out. I did npt realize the bees would build up so fast. I will post the finished video in a couple of weeks
Rick


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## beez2010 (Dec 9, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> If you're in a Northern climate you need about 75 to 100 pounds of stores. Assuming a one by hive not counting the cover (I have no idea how heavy your's might be), it should weigh about 120 to 150 pounds going into winter, same as any hive.


Just wanted to point out, Michael, it is not the same as with _any_ hive. In order to winter bees in a Warre hive while leaving that much in stores, the hive would have to be 4 boxes tall. Bees winter in a Warre in two boxes, and 25-30 lbs. of stores is more than enough to get them through a tough winter.
Bees surviving on such minimal stores greatly increases the survival rate of colonies, not to mention that the beekeeper gets to harvest alot more honey each fall.

Chris Harvey--Teakwood Organics

www.thewarrestore.com


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>In order to winter bees in a Warre hive while leaving that much in stores, the hive would have to be 4 boxes tall. Bees winter in a Warre in two boxes, and 25-30 lbs. of stores is more than enough to get them through a tough winter.

There is a difference between surviving and having enough stores (as Doolittle calls it "millions in the bank") to build up to a booming hive in the spring. I have not found being stingy on winter stores helpful. Much better if they have plenty to build up on early.


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## beez2010 (Dec 9, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >In order to winter bees in a Warre hive while leaving that much in stores, the hive would have to be 4 boxes tall. Bees winter in a Warre in two boxes, and 25-30 lbs. of stores is more than enough to get them through a tough winter.
> 
> There is a difference between surviving and having enough stores (as Doolittle calls it "millions in the bank") to build up to a booming hive in the spring. I have not found being stingy on winter stores helpful. Much better if they have plenty to build up on early.


I know you are a great beekeeper, Michael, but_ how _many Warre hives are you running?

I'm thinking of sending you one so you'll try it. It's like you said on your site about small cell. Anyone can sit back and doubt, it's when you try it that you learn the truth. As I said, these meager stores are _more_ than enough.

We have to work hard to keep our bees from swarming early. I have customers frantically calling me because their bees are swarming (they didn't enlarge the hive yet)....and it's barely 50 degrees outside. The bees are as strong as any colonies that winter on mega-stores in Langs or KTBHs.

I'm sorry...it just bothers me that people think it takes 100 lbs. of stores to winter bees, when in fact, it is the consumption of all this food that is killing their bees.

Warre was a great beekeeper, too.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

Thanks for the comments but I just have one top bar and was wondering about the winter. About (does not have to be exact) how much weight of honey is on one bar in a top bar?
Rick


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## Merlinspop (Nov 4, 2010)

The weight of honey in a fully capped bar varies with width and depth, but I've been told that 5# per bar is a good rule of thumb until actual results from my own hive are available. 

I'm leaving everything to them this year, unless they get full well early but with 32 bars, I don't expect they will.


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## beez2010 (Dec 9, 2009)

Did you build your own hive or did you buy it? If you bought it, you should ask the builder this question, since it is likely that he/she is running the same hive and has the answer. Otherwise, you should wait til you have a bar of capped honey and then harvest the honey and weigh it; unless you're willing to put your bees into the hands of anyone here who'll take a swag at answering that for you.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

beez2010 said:


> I'm sorry...it just bothers me that people think it takes 100 lbs. of stores to winter bees, when in fact, it is the consumption of all this food that is killing their bees...


Chris, this is a very interesting suggestion. Could you talk more about that? How are excess stores killing bees?

Thanks,

Adam


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Mine are between 5.5 and 6.5 pounds per bar when full.

Adam


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

beez2010 said:


> Did you build your own hive or did you buy it?


See post #3 in this thread -- Rtoney made the hive from plans by Michael Bush. So MB may be able to answer that question fairly accurately. 

In the meantime, Merlin's answer of about 5 pounds per bar seems conservative and reasonable, based on info I've gleaned from other TBH owners who have provided this info about their TBHs. 

Using that number, a hive should have 15-20 bars of honey to reach Michael's estimate of 75 to 100 pounds of stores for a typical winter in Midwestern US. --DeeAnna


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## beez2010 (Dec 9, 2009)

There is a good explanation here, Adam.


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## BertieFox (May 8, 2010)

One of the key factors in overwintering stocks is the breed of bee. Italian types are renowned for turning all their stores into brood, but since I started keeping pure bred Carniolans, I've been amazed at how easily they overwinter on next to nothing. We regularly overwinter nukes with five or six frames which we have not even fed in the autumn. This is one of the attributes which makes the Carniolans so desirable.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

beez2010 said:


> There is a good explanation here, Adam.


Hey Chris, you say there that:
"bees absolutely will not defecate in the hive, so they need to take flight in order to do so." and that the bees in Michigan "simply died of dysentery, due to the fact that they were confined to their hives for over four months, unable to take even one cleansing flight"

But that doesn't make sense to me. Bees do defecate inside the hive. They try not to, but they will. Particularly if they cannot break cluster. They'll choose defecating over dying. I've seen it in my own hives. If bees die of extended periods of cold, isn't it more likely that they aren't able to break cluster to move to more stores? Especially if they have started brood?

I know this seems off topic, but at the root, Chris is suggesting that the amount of stores needed by bees is dependent on the type of hive. So I'm trying to explore that, and shake out more information which might help one decide how many bars, frames, or pounds one might require for winter.


Adam


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

Your first year you may want to leave all of the honey stores, counting them before and after to see how much they went through. Noting, of course, the size of the cluster, winter temperatures, etc. If you've got multiple hives your study would be even better. Come up with an average and make sure they've got at least that much going into winter. 

Cheers,
Matt


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## beez2010 (Dec 9, 2009)

If your bees are defecating inside the hive, they are probably sick with nosema. In the few hives that I_ did_ lose, every bee had a belly full of yuk and there was virtually none inside the hive otherwise. The first warm day that we had was in late March. The bees were exiting the hives for cleansing flights in masses. Many did not make it two inches from the landing board before releasing, and an entire acre of snow was speckled brown.

In Michigan, we're not talking about an extended cold snap killing the bees; we have those alot. We're talking about a four month period when temperatures only went into the 40s a few times and on those days it rained and was too nasty for bees to go outside. Bees should easily be able to break cluster when outside temps are in the 40s. If a hive is properly designed, bees should not _have_ to break cluster to move to where there are more stores (if the stores are always above).

For many reasons, Warre hives are superior for wintering bees. I am not saying that the hive is the _only_ factor in winter survival, although I do believe that it is a very important one; one of the most important. I also agree with what was said earlier, the type of bee makes a big difference, too.

Chris Harvey

www.thewarrestore.com


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I know you are a great beekeeper, Michael, but how many Warre hives are you running?

None. But I've had bees in everything from box hives to long hives, to top bar hives, to 12 frame Langstroths to five frame boxes stacked up and every depth from Dadant deeps to shallows. The size and shape isn't that critical. Do I think it makes a little difference, yes, but a lot of difference? No.

>I'm thinking of sending you one so you'll try it. It's like you said on your site about small cell. Anyone can sit back and doubt, it's when you try it that you learn the truth. As I said, these meager stores are more than enough.

Doolittle used to overwinter on about that amount as far as what they consumed, but he left them plenty to get them going in the spring.

>I'm sorry...it just bothers me that people think it takes 100 lbs. of stores to winter bees, when in fact, it is the consumption of all this food that is killing their bees.

How does consuming food kill bees?

>Warre was a great beekeeper, too. 

I have no doubt.


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## Merlinspop (Nov 4, 2010)

rtoney said:


> My *top bar* (emphasis added)...
> How many bars show I expect to leave for the bees to winter well?
> Thanks


Chris - your devotion to Warres is clear and commendable, but nowhere in this thread did you answer the OP's question about his hive.
Rtoney... I don't know how bad your winters are or if you get warm spells that could facilitate feeding, but where I am, I'll be nervous with less that 12-15 bars full. Heck, I'll be nervous no matter how many they go into winter with.


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## beez2010 (Dec 9, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >I've had bees in everything from box hives to long hives, to top bar hives, to 12 frame Langstroths to five frame boxes stacked up and every depth from Dadant deeps to shallows. The size and shape isn't that critical. Do I think it makes a little difference, yes, but a lot of difference? No.


I already know the answer to this, but for the benefit of others reading this, how many of those hives you listed did you have a sawdust-filled quilt box on top of to insulate the hive and basically eliminate the need to ventilate it?

It's not _just_ the size of the hive that makes the big difference. It is the complete _design_.


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## beez2010 (Dec 9, 2009)

Merlinspop said:


> Chris - your devotion to Warres is clear and commendable, but nowhere in this thread did you answer the OP's question about his hive.


I started my little rant by simply responding to something that MB said to the OP (that all hives required 75-100 lbs. of stores in order to winter well).

I agreed with the answer that MB had already given to him about _his_ hive.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

My bees are in a ktbh, and I left them over 100lbs of honey in the Fall. But in truth, they may have consumed 20. But now that the spring has come, they're cleaning it out pretty fast...

How do the bees in the Warre's fare during the Spring build up, having wintered on a similar amount? 

Adam


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I already know the answer to this, but for the benefit of others reading this, how many of those hives you listed did you have a sawdust-filled quilt box on top of to insulate the hive and basically eliminate the need to ventilate it?

Sawdust specifically? No. Newspaper, Celetex (sometimes called comosote), dry sugar etc. yes. No upward ventilation? Yes. A box full of leaves? Yes.

But your point is correct. I have not run a Warre hive. 

But back to the point of consuming of stores, my bees don't burn up much from November to March. But from March to April they will burn up a lot raising brood.


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## sevenbravo (Sep 30, 2010)

My TBH is only 26" long (inside dimensions)....is that enough room to survive a winter in Idaho?


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

sevenbravo,

How deep is your hive and how long are the bars? This will be key in determining whether there will be enough space for sufficient stores. For instance, my hives are 42" long with 28 bars. The bars are 18" long and the sides are about 12" deep. This seems to work fine in Portland, OR with plenty of room to spare.

Best,
Matt


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

beez2010 said:


> it just bothers me that people think it takes 100 lbs. of stores to winter bees, when in fact, it is the consumption of all this food that is killing their bees.


Now I've heard it all.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I haven't built any top bar hives less than 48" long. The KTBH is 15 inch bars but tapered. The TTBH is 19" bars and square. It's the total volume that is the real issue.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Mine are a 48" long, 12" high and the bars are 18" long. The sides are not as drastically sloped as some are. The bars are 18", while the bottom board is 10" wide. So my sides are set at a 72 degree angle. It's quite a bit of interior space, But I wouldn't make them smaller.

In truth, I think a 5' ktbh might be ideal for the bees summer expansion. But there's a trade off in material costs, and more difficulty moving them around or storing them when necessary. This seems to make the 48" the best balance. You just have to pull honey at the right time during your season, and make sure they have room to keep storing.

Adam


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Some colonies I think would benefit from a 5' long hive. That seems to be the longest hive that Brother Adam found in his journeys. But many seem to quit at about 4' and don't want to expand any more length wise. I would consider 5' the maximum useful length. I would consider 48" the minimum useful length... but I suppose if I already had one 40" I might live with it.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> ...I would consider 48" the minimum useful length...


I agree. It can be shocking how fast they can fill up a four foot ktbh. Any smaller, and I think it would be an early squeeze.

Adam


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