# Package bee production



## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

I'm looking for input for getting the bees(without queen) from the hive to the funnel.

Looking for queens then shaking the bees 1 frame at a time is good for cooler weather but it is sooooo slow.

Using bee-go in the smoker to drive the bees through an excluder up into a shaker box is fast. You will have much less of a chance of getting a virgin or mated queen(those times there are 2 or more queens in the hive). But you need warm weather and you need to be real careful you don't drive to many bees out.

Has anybody used a syrup concoction with say honeybee healthy? Place a shaker super above an excluder on all colonies packages are being shook from for the day. Spray top bars of that super with the solution. Wait for bees to come through then shake/blow them into the funnel. The bees could be trained with some tease tastes of the syrup by an open drum feeding so they key in on the scent. Then later(day or 2) when that solution is sprayed on the shaker super the bees will in a way go to robbing(not each others hives but what is within their hives). Yes the bees will weigh more because of the syrup so that will be dealt with by making the packages a little heavier. I think if this would work it will be fast and will greatly reduce the injuries caused by excessive bee-go smoke or just plain smoke used to drive the bees through the excluder.


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## alpha6 (May 12, 2008)

Quickest way I know of is to work a row at a time. Go into the hive and pull the frame with the queen, dump it in a nuc box or better one of those nucs that is divided to so you can place a couple of frames in it. Once you have pulled those singles, it's fast and quick to then go back and dump bees from the hive without the worry of getting the queen.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Some packages are shook by using a smoke up box which consists of slats inside a super.
Regards,
Ernie


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## LT (Aug 17, 2006)

We tried the smoke up box last year wit not much success. Would you mind explaining the best way to do it? Thanks


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

There's a reason old Mr. Blue Boxes can "shake" 400 lbs in 2 hours all by himself. We use the same method ourselves. Its smokin. I've seen Keith do it many a time with great success. In March and April time is more valuable than just about anything around. This method of retrieving bees is a great productivity enhancer for sure. Works great when done right. Beats the old fashion shaking method hands down. I can do 4 times as many pounds of bees in half the time with half the crew as my neighbor who insists on doing it the old way. The trade secrets to doing so are learned with practice. Is temperature sensitive. You need to learn to listen to the bees as they move. Not to much "chemical" or the bees gag. To little and they don't move. If its to cold or windy the bees in a tight cluster don't like to move upon smoke up. Cold windy days can be tough package making days. If done right its just like using Bee Go. Use it wrong you will mess up the bees. I wouldn't be doing packages if we did it the other way. To hard on the body and takes way to much time. :waiting:

As for using HBH to trick the bees all I can say is I'm glad I'm not buying your "fat" bees. I'd love to get ten bucks a pound for syrup any day. Even if it did work I'm not sure how you would compensate and determine the "true" weight of the bees. The nice thing about hand shaking and smoke up is that you will get a nice mix of young bees included in the bees. That might get undermined with a syrup trick.

One more word to the wise. If you use "chemical" in your smoker make sure you don't use the plastic ML piece of Junk hobbyist style smoker. The plastic will melt. If there ever was a worthless piece of junk for a beekeeping job the plastic smokers are it. (Have I made myself clear) Buy a couple of good ones from Dadant with shields. They tend to get hot enough to melt lead on them when in heavy use in a smoke-up operation.

For those of you who want to know what "chemical" is please don't pm me or ask. Use of the stuff is dangerous at best. Works great but I'm not about to tell anyone how to burn themselves to death from attempting to use something that should not be tried without first being under the tutelage of a experienced user.


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh3bgiHKmXA&feature=player_embedded


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

Honey-4-All said:


> As for using HBH to trick the bees all I can say is I'm glad I'm not buying your "fat" bees. I'd love to get ten bucks a pound for syrup any day. Even if it did work I'm not sure how you would compensate and determine the "true" weight of the bees. The nice thing about hand shaking and smoke up is that you will get a nice mix of young bees included in the bees. That might get undermined with a syrup trick.
> 
> .


It's the smell that I would want to get the bees in the super. Not a gallon of syrup:doh:

Smoke-go works great once you know how to use it. I've helped make many, many, many packages in FL that way. I learned the sounds of the hive, how they move to the top, what to much "go" will do, all the way to the screen and not a solid lid on top. 

I'm just trying to reinvent the wheel so it can be driven by a beginner(helpers not me)


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Thursday, 17 February 2011

The trade secrets to doing so are learned with practice. 

:shhhh:For those of you who want to know what "chemical" is please don't pm me or ask. Use of the stuff is dangerous at best. Works great but I'm not about to tell anyone how to burn themselves to death from attempting to use something that should not be tried without first being under the tutelage of a experienced user. 
Very well stated.
Ernie


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Slave. 

As I mentioned in the previous post the smoke up technique is not for beginners. I would NEVER let a newbee helper do that job unless I was hovering over them like a pack of mosquitoes on an Eskimo's rear end on a hot Alaskan summer day. NO WAY. If someone was "quick" on the learning curve a 40 hour introduction might get them started. Suppress your urges to let someone else do it. How much are tons of dead, screwed up bees worth in your book?

If you really want to entice the bees to go up without smoke-up why don't you go by a gallon of QMP and let the immature females find their way up into your shake boxes the "natural" way. 

PM me if it works...... And let me know what the expense is for production once you figured it out. :waiting:


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## LT (Aug 17, 2006)

QMP? What is this? Thanks


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## S&H (Feb 25, 2010)

Queen Mandibular Pheromone (QMP) is secreted by the queen and has important effects on the hive; an old queen may lack sufficient QMP, causing the colony to supersede her.

A couple of links:
Wikipedia
Bee Boost


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

Shannon I never shook bees for sale but for queenless bees without queen I have run em down with bee go, split the double, inserted queen excluder. 

Come back a day or two later and take off a queenless split. Or you could shake all you felt was prudent but no lookee.


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/user/longlanehoney#p/u/3/DtZPBH7TzNY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ShQt-AEoFM&NR=1 RDY-B


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

RDY-B said:


> http://www.youtube.com/user/longlanehoney#p/u/3/DtZPBH7TzNY
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ShQt-AEoFM&NR=1 RDY-B


Great video!
At 4:23 into the video I see a carbon dioxide tank. 
What's the purpose of the carbon dioxide?
Could it be used to sedate the bees for shaking into the packages?


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Haven't seen this video in a while. If i remember correctly Martin uses this method to pour mating nucs. Using this for pouring packages would be a WASTE of time and money.


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

yea its a cool video-ERNIE thats just a air bottle-maybe oxygen dont know-
its to run the staple gun-no compressor -RDY-B


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## acbz (Sep 8, 2009)

Honey-4-All said:


> Using this for pouring packages would be a WASTE of time and money.


Clearly you haven't been making packages profitably with this method as my father (in above video) has been for 35 years. Beeslave and I have spent plenty of time working with dad making packages this way and I can assure you that it's efficient in warm weather and with good help. The co2 is to run the air stapler.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Unless I missed something in the video, me thinks it's time for a smoke up box.


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## acbz (Sep 8, 2009)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Unless I missed something in the video, me thinks it's time for a smoke up box.


If by smoke up box you mean an empty super, that's what we use. Smoke them up through an excluder into an empty super on top with a screened lid. I think the video shows it. If there is a faster way to make packages, I'm curious how it works.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

I was referring to the use of Co2 on the bees to Knock them out. Like in cold ****ed cold "out" where they wake up later. (docile) Was thinking of another video. My mistake. Use of a portable gun in the field would speed up production while there no doubt. We prebuild all our stuff so once we hit the bee yard all we do is "shake" and pour. Minimal or no assembly in the field is preferable. Good equipment (tools) always helps.


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

yea but did you check out the cans--they where open for CANDY-they put plywood 
cover over that-the candy in the cans-litel diferant EHH--

Keith theres a vid out of Taylors in australia useing smoke up box--they use a deep-- -RDY-B


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV02xiO5ug0


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

acbz said:


> If by smoke up box you mean an empty super, that's what we use..


No, I mean a smoke up box. The first time I saw a guy banging a box with frames in it to get packages in our outfit he would be fired.


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## RDY-B (May 20, 2007)

** The first time I saw a guy banging a box with frames in it to get packages in our outfit he would be fired.**

Thanks for the warning-- -know exactly how many keepers dose it take to make a package-:lookout:
hows your spanish- 

RDY-B

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrAsVtfcQEU&feature=related


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## acbz (Sep 8, 2009)

Keith Jarrett said:


> No, I mean a smoke up box. The first time I saw a guy banging a box with frames in it to get packages in our outfit he would be fired.


Lol I will inform dad of your work policies in case he ever needs a job. So is a smoke up box a super with wooden slats for bees to cluster on? And I'm picturing a screened top? Or am I missing something. Of course you must use empty supers with no honey in our method to avoid breaking frames.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

acbz said:


> So is a smoke up box a super with wooden slats for bees to cluster on? And I'm picturing a screened top? .


Yes , that's it, we shake about 5-7lbs a round, no one stops with the box, bump and go. Also, we use syrup cans that have been filled vacum sealed,those are done at the factory, this is not what "package bee production " should look like. Sorry.


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## acbz (Sep 8, 2009)

Different strokes. I'm aware of a couple large producers in FL who also do it this way but obviously there are other things that work. Post a video, I'd love to see it. You could probably use it to advertise Nutrabee, sounds like they're big colonies if you're getting that many pounds per round.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

acbz said:


> Different strokes


ACBZ, with all due respect, the key word here is " package bee PRODUCTION " the beekeeping world is nothing more than a numbers game, the more numbers you can get through in a day, the more profit. Take one more look at Phil's post #5, he knows my bees & the way I shake.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

We may not be as efficient here in the northern tier at producing packages as those of you with near perfect weather, but that doesn't mean we can't shake packages here, with techniques tailored to our location. Honey production in CA is much less efficient than many places, that doesn't mean you don't try, right? We all work with what we got, sometimes in less than perfect conditions.
There is more than one way to skin a cat, or to shake a package, often dictated by location. As Shannon states and as I can confirm, when we are shaking our packages here in the north country, it is often too cold for a smoke up box. Perhaps we can get back to his original question? I am curious myself.

Sheri


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JohnK and Sheri said:


> . As Shannon states and as I can confirm, when we are shaking our packages here in the north country, it is often too cold for a smoke up box. Perhaps we can get back to his original question? I am curious myself.Sheri


Well, I can't say how cold it is in WI when you folks want to shake,But we start shaking the last week in January and the weather is 40-50's range.... somethimes 60, but well get back to the original question. I'll go back and see what that was.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

Keith Jarrett said:


> ..... the weather is 40-50's range.... somethimes 60,


Sounds like June in Wisconsin
Sheri


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

From another discipline - "Security by Obscurity is no security at all." 

I'm gonna make some guesses based on this and other threads.


Bulk bee production is potentially one of the more profitable sectors of the business.

It's not *all that hard* to do - also not all that easy.

Bulk bees can be produced from the same hives that later produce a large honey crop - maybe even used for pollination. 

It's probably a useful tool in swarm prevention.

Like every other business, bulk producers would like to have as little competition as possible. And keeping "trade secrets" is the main line of defense.

All that (if correct) is fair enough, and I sympathize. But if someone told you that the only way to learn to safely put gas in a car (or use a chainsaw, or table saw, or handgun, or ladder, or motor cycle....) is to get some hands on experience by working with a pro for a few years _and I don't want to be responsible for you getting hurt so I'm not even going to give you a few pointers_ - would you take that very seriously?

By all means keep your trade secrets close to the vest if you want, but don't try to pretend its for our own good. *But* if using the "chemical" is *really* more dangerous than running a chain saw then you are INSANE to do it - no matter how quick and profitable. If you are mostly talking about killing bees, then all this safety talk is just smoke.

No offense guys, but give us a break. We aren't stupid. Not *very *stupid anyway.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

No comments at all?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

There is more then one way to skin a cat.

I have long contemplated building this device.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjqW1bNkm0Q


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Holy crap that looks violent.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

David LaFerney said:


> No comments at all?


Key word here is "BULK" David, most scratch there heads when my first shake comes in around 6-7lb avg, I am not going to shake bees if I'm ONLY getting a couple pounds per hive, I would rather work at McDonlds.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

David LaFerney said:


> Holy crap that looks violent.


So does clearing supers with a leaf blower


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## BMAC (Jun 23, 2009)

Yeah but it sure clears supers fast. That actually looks like a good device so you dont kill your arms and shoulders from shaking them off the frame.


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## JensLarsen (Mar 14, 2007)

"Bulk bees can be produced from the same hives that later produce a large honey crop - maybe even used for pollination."

No, it is a specialized business. I have stopped giving advice and tips to hobbyists since they lack the skill or purpose to apply expert methods (*). I think you killed a good discussion. 



(*) Dick Allen on "expert methods": Example: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/syrup/feed.htm Open feeding is another *expert* technique that when practiced with less than full understanding can lead to disaster -- or dissatisfaction and puzzlement. As with all beekeeping techniques, careful observation and understanding of bees and their constantly changing ways are essential for success.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

JensLarsen;748791 As with all beekeeping techniques said:


> JL, very well said.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

JensLarsen said:


> "Bulk bees can be produced from the same hives that later produce a large honey crop - maybe even used for pollination."
> 
> No, it is a specialized business. I have stopped giving advice and tips to hobbyists since they lack the skill or purpose to apply expert methods (*). I think you killed a good discussion.


Jens - Sorry, it certainly was not my intent to kill a good discussion.

_
"Bulk bees can be produced from the same hives that later produce a large honey crop - maybe even used for pollination."_

I derived that statement from information that I have been given by 2 respected and highly experienced bee keepers - maybe they know something that you don't. Maybe they mislead me - But, I doubt it.

_ "I have stopped giving advice and tips to hobbyists since they lack the skill or purpose to apply expert methods"_

You sure are painting with a wide brush when you say that - hobbyists aren't all cut from the same cloth. Fortunately, there are *some* experts who are willing to give advice to beginners even if we do lack "skill or purpose." What you do is your business of course.


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## JensLarsen (Mar 14, 2007)

Can't take credit for it, it's words of Dick Allen, a quote from the link.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

And yet his website is full of information which is freely available to anyone who bothers to read it - including unqualified hobbyists. 

Did I misunderstand when I assumed that you shared the sentiments in the quote? 

Anyway, this is far off topic. I didn't mean to offend, you have every right to help enlighten the uninitiated or not as you see fit.


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## JensLarsen (Mar 14, 2007)

David, yes you are far of topic. I like to learn more on the topic of commercial BULK bee production, can we proceed? 

To answer your question, I find specialization in colonies to work out very good for me. Mike Palmer talks about this. This is not to say that the same colony can not be used wisely for other things if you are smart and get the logistics right, it is just that I do not expect every colony to manage every need I have. Honey producers are left alone. I am non-migratory and getting it to nuc production in a northern climate. These colonies will produce some honey, but that would be seen as bonus. My five cents. Now, back to the experts.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Jens
Do they produce packages in Sweden?

I am sure that a Migrator's hives respond well to the constant supply of forage they have nearly year around, which is why they can produce excess bees and a surplus of honey.


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## JensLarsen (Mar 14, 2007)

No one really does packages. The market is for nucs and queens. Sweden has a short season, the commercial beekeeping region (southern third) is like Vermont to New Jersey in climate and size. This promotes non-migratory beekeeping.

I like to know more if these bulk bee producers are feeding to raise brood or just pulling excess bees.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

JensLarsen said:


> I like to know more if these bulk bee producers are feeding to raise brood or just pulling excess bees.


I also would like to know more about how these bulk bee producers do what they do. However, I might humbly suggest that Keith Jarrett - a producer not only of bees, but of a high quality pollen substitute - has kind of implied that *his* hives produce lots of bulk bees because of being fed his fine protein supplement.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

David LaFerney said:


> I also would like to know more about how these bulk bee producers do what they do.


Well, Dave, get your veil because we start shaking bees on Monday the 30th of January.


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## Beeslave (Feb 6, 2009)

"Bulk bees can be produced from the same hives that later produce a large honey crop - maybe even used for pollination."

Swarm Control for southern/western hives that head to the midwest for honey production.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Well, Dave, get your veil because we start shaking bees on Monday the 30th of January.


Ha! I wish that was possible. I'm sure it would be an experience.

So Keith, Since you are shaking bees by the last of January and _"my first shake comes in around 6-7lb avg,"_ I'm guessing that you have been feeding NUTRA-BEE at least since December, and in another thread I believe that you said that feeding sub during the fall build makes hives more resistant to nosema - do you ever *not *feed NUTRA-BEE between September and spring?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Beeslave said:


> "Bulk bees can be produced from the same hives that later produce a large honey crop - maybe even used for pollination."
> 
> Swarm Control for southern/western hives that head to the midwest for honey production.


Thank you.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

David LaFerney said:


> - do you ever *not *feed NUTRA-BEE between September and spring?


David pretty much feed sept-Jan, although dec they don't eat much. One thing I do need to mention Jan shake is only about 3-4 pounds an that's only out of the real big ones, so if you avg the total number of hives divided that in the total amount of shake bees it really amonts to about 1.5 - 2 pounds per hive or a total of 4,000lbs. This is just a way to CASH in (sell) on some that buy bulk bees BEFORE the almonds. The normal shaking starts in mid March-April and yes 5 pounds an up is a normal shake.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

Keith why shake bees at this time why not split and have more hives fro almonds?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

swarm_trapper said:


> Keith why shake bees at this time why not split and have more hives fro almonds?


Nick, I don't want to increase my numbers any more, as of right now all my pallets are full. 

P.S. what's wrong with selling bees @ $30 lb before the almonds?


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## Jacobee (Dec 27, 2011)

how many pounds needed for hives going to almonds?


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Jacobee said:


> how many pounds needed for hives going to almonds?


That's an open-ended question, some may say two others may say six. I sell to folks that might have some 3-4 framer's that want to add two-three pounds so that it will make grade, for them (out-of-staters) it's the cheapest way out.


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## busy bee apiary (Aug 7, 2010)

Keith Jarrett said:


> for them (out-of-staters) it's the cheapest way out.[/QUOTE
> 
> Hey Keith, you just have to make fun of us out of staters? I can recall plenty of locals that have the same problems u mention.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

busy bee apiary said:


> Keith Jarrett said:
> 
> 
> > for them (out-of-staters) it's the cheapest way out.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## busy bee apiary (Aug 7, 2010)

Nah.......I knew were you were coming from just a little friendly fun.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

Keith Jarrett said:


> P.S. what's wrong with selling bees @ $30 lb before the almonds?


ain't nothing wrong with 30$ a lb!!!
sounds good 
Nick


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