# First deadout of the winter



## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

So do the shb breed/lay eggs this time of year in your climate?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I've never seen larvae or eggs, only beetles, in my hives or others.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

First thought? Six SHB are statistically speaking zero.

Yup, sounds like this colony is a goner and not one to breed from. 

Think? I don't know. Did you see any signs of a queen? Brood> Capped and un? Is there enuf brood and a queen so putting them in a tight nuc box would be worthwhile? Or are you going to put the frames of honey in another hive which has empty combs?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Yes, I found the queen, if you check my blog you'll see pictures of the two clusters one of which includes all the brood that was present, three cells. I also found a dozen or so dead pupae on the bottom board indicating that some had been dragged out. We had a big freeze this last week, before that they were alive.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Solomon Parker said:


> Before I describe the conditions and head off at the pass those who would say 'so, mites then?'
> 
> I checked into the hive and found a divided cluster, two clusters about the size of a tennis ball, at least two feet apart, both surrounded by honey. There were also about two dozen mites on the floor of the hive.
> What do you think?


And why do you believe it wasn't varroa/virus issues? What you're seeing is just what I've seen in some colonies...dead in the spring from varroa/virus. They do separate into small clusters. There will be mites on the bottom board.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Though it is impossible to rule varroa either in or out my guess is they had a hand in the demise but thatthe biggest issue is probably just an old failing queen. it isn't terribly unusual to see older queens just lose vitality though the eggs they are laying may still be fertilized.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

........or perhaps they lose vitality because of virus/mite issues hmmmm. I was basing my guess on the fact that this hive was small when you found it, undoubtably an older queen that issued. On the other hand seeing even a dozen mites under a cluster that small is noteworthy. don't forget Sol those queens make great smoker fuel.

I knew an old beekeeper well who used to love to cage those and add some brood to them in hopes of salvaging the queen. He made a bet with my son once after he saw him doing this that it would be a good hive that year.........the old guy lost.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> before that they were alive.


Barely at best.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

In the final stages before death, the bees can be so traumatised there can be little clumps in different places. I won't say anything about mites since we don't talk about that.

Something different, why breed for winter flying? The only reason I could think of is so they get out and poop outside the hive. But winter flying can also be a hazardous activity, in my mind you'd be better just to see who comes through with the least nosema, for whatever reasons, and proceed on that basis. There are a number of factors that can cause one hive to fly on a cold day and another not, other than breed.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Looks like they are starving with all those butts sticking out of the cells in first pic.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

You do see the honey in that picture right?

Bees cluster in the cells. You will just about always find bees in the cells unless there are no bees.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

I have only been keeping bees post-varroa and wondering if it would be unusual to find colonies similar to Solomon’s dead out pre-varroa?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I checked the balance of my hives this morning in my out yard. Two were average, one was small but still alive, but one was massive and warm enough to send out defenders at 25 degrees. Of all hives, they had the most honey a month ago, but now they seem to have eaten most of it. I think this is going to be one of those hives that burns too brightly and never shuts down in the winter. They will certainly burn through their remaining honey before maple pollen in the spring.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Delta Bay said:


> I have only been keeping bees post-varroa and wondering if it would be unusual to find colonies similar to Solomon’s dead out pre-varroa?


It happened. But as you suspected, a lot less. Much less.

Sol has decided it was not varroa related, so I'll not dispute that. In other peoples hives though, that I look at as a disease inspector, I'll see hives in the final stages of dieing due to being overun by mites, in a similar situation. I think the dwindling number of bees are aggravated by the increasing number of mites per bee, and can blunder off around the hive and be found in seperate little clumps.

Still not hopeless though, went somewhere where the woman only had the one hive. All brood dead due to parasitic mite syndrome, bees in a few clumps similar to what Sol has pictured, and the queen running around completely on her own. The woman was pretty distressed so I caged the queen, came back later with two frames of healthy brood and bees, and fired that hive up again. Had to treat though obviously but it came back and stored her a good crop of honey that season. Requeened it that fall.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Solomon Parker said:


> I checked the balance of my hives this morning in my out yard. Two were average, one was small but still alive, but one was massive and warm enough to send out defenders at 25 degrees. Of all hives, they had the most honey a month ago, but now they seem to have eaten most of it. I think this is going to be one of those hives that burns too brightly and never shuts down in the winter. They will certainly burn through their remaining honey before maple pollen in the spring.


Well if you didn't leave enough honey for that particular hives needs, is it too late to feed it?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Oldtimer said:


> Sol has decided it was not varroa related


I made no such conclusion, not here nor on my blog. I did make it known what I expected to hear since I've heard the same thing no matter the conditions of all the hives I've posted about. Two clusters, mites. One cluster, mites. No cluster, mites. Honey, mites. No honey, mites. Mites, mites. No mites, mites. Beetles, mites. No beetles, mites. Bees, mites. No bees, mites. Maybe every hive I lose is due to mites. But at this point, with the analysis I've been given, I don't know how I should know the difference.



Oldtimer said:


> Well if you didn't leave enough honey for that particular hives needs


I have been pretty consistent and honest in reporting how much honey I have harvested this year.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I don't read everything on the net, and have no idea how much honey you harvested. My question was based on your post, which indicated the hive might starve.

OK if you did not conclude the death of that hive was not mite related, my mistake. Just that since you've been on beesource, history is you've never accepted any of your hive losses could be mite related, ever. So when the post started with you saying you wanted to "head off" people who might suggest mites I thought it would be more of the same. And let's be honest, certainly sounded like it.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

This hive was from a swarm ,origin unknown, queen age unknown. Dysentry in spring with possible supersedure. They didn't bring in enough stores for winter and wouldn't take syrup this fall.
I would suspect nosema as the main cause. Have you done a spore count?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

jim lyon said:


> the biggest issue is probably just an old failing queen.


Fresh queen superseded this spring after skunk predation.



jim lyon said:


> don't forget Sol those queens make great smoker fuel..


I'm saving her for swarm lure. I have a collection in a pint jar.



JD's Bees said:


> Have you done a spore count?


I have not.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Solomon Parker said:


> Two clusters, mites. One cluster, mites. No cluster, mites. Honey, mites. No honey, mites. Mites, mites. No mites, mites. Beetles, mites. No beetles, mites. Bees, mites. No bees, mites. Maybe every hive I lose is due to mites. But at this point, with the analysis I've been given, I don't know how I should know the difference.


Another thought, Nosema. Due to mites.  No really, Nosema. Have you done any investigating to see what your Nosema levels are like? Then again, it could be a virus, which mites are a vector for. It could be all three. Send a sample of bees to Beltsville for analysis.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I did have that thought this spring when I saw the stains. I made a note not to split from them, not that they every gave the opportunity.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

The way to check in a colony like this is to look at previously used brood cells and see how many of them have mite droppings. If you hold the comb so the sun is coming over your shoulder and the comb is tilted so you can see the upper sides of the cells, that will tell you the most. I have only seen that type problem with bees that had serious tracheal mite problems. The key is the splitting of the cluster. When bees avoid each other in the hive, it is always for a reason.

DarJones


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

There is sugar all over everything, it's kind of hard to see mite feces, but I'll look when I get a chance.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Huh? Where did the sugar come from?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Fed it then tore the hive apart before they ate it. It's in the pictures though it's worse since I put the frames back in.


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