# Florida Trip



## MARBIS (Jun 10, 2010)

Very nice gallery Dean, thanks for sharing


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

3500 removals? Really? So that is 10 per day with one 2 week vacation.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

yes, many of these removals are from in ground water meter boxes (which could also simply be called "swarm traps"). he can do most of these in 5-10 minutes (open box, find/clip/mark/cage the queen, shake bees into a nuc, and leave the nuc there until nightfall for pickup). sometimes he does 20 or more of these in a day.

keith does not save the comb (feeds the honey to bees, and the brood to the chickens).

deknow


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## bigevilgrape (Aug 21, 2008)

The giant spider was a golden orb-weaver or banana spider. They where all over the place when I was in Florida in August... I'm not a fan of big spiders.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

deknow said:


> Ramona and I have been in Florida for the state beekeeping conference, and I've posted a number of photos (mostly bee related) here:
> http://picasaweb.google.com/Dean.Ramona/Florida#
> We had a great time, and did a number of removals with Keith Councell.
> 
> deknow


Interesting... Does he follow Florida BMP of requeening feral hives? If not, why? Curious... as more and more States going to these type of BMPs.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Apologies for being late getting back to this...I was offline for several days, and have been otherwise swamped.

Yes, Keith requeens feral hives.

I, however, would do no such thing. What we saw (even in the large colonies) were gentle bees. We did put on veils at some points during most of the removals..this was just to keep bees off of our faces. We never put on gloves, and with one exception (of a small water meter colony that was a bit "stingy"), the temperment was gentle (we never _had_ to put on a veil, and they came on and off depending on what we were doing...they never were put on in a panic, and they always came off before the removal was complete).

The idea that "best management practices" prohibit beekeepers from selecting from feral survivors the best tempered and most productive locally adapted bees is asinine on every level.

deknow


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

deknow said:


> The idea that "best management practices" prohibit beekeepers from selecting from feral survivors the best tempered and most productive locally adapted bees is asinine on every level.


Why do you say "asinine"? It would seem to me that in Florida the odds are that the majority of the feral colonies could, if not now, will soon be largely Africanized.

Your experience seems to be the extractions were largely involving gentle bees, but even if only one of them were AHB, the BMPs would be designed to prevent the spread of them. What am I missing here?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I don't think that anyone should go remove bees in any area if they are not prepared to deal with "hot" bees....as they are always a possibility.

With that said, we were in Florida to speak at the state beekeeping conference. One of the largest migratory pollinators on the east coast attended our talks, and insisted that bees could not be kept in large colonies in Florida, could not be kept without feeding, and that bees kept without treatments (and without constant splits to knock down the mite population) will not survive in Florida.

Now, we saw some large feral colonies....ones that survived the early cold snap last fall, many survived being sprayed with insecticide meant to kill them. The cell size was smaller than one would expect from recent escapees from managed operations. The bees had significant stores and showed no overt signs of beetle, mite, or other disease problems (not that mites and beetles weren't present, it's just that the bees were thriving despite their presence).

So you have a robust population of unmanaged bees that thrive in Florida. You have a population of beekeepers keeping "EHB" stock that require feeding, medication, and management in order to keep them alive.

Some of these unmanaged bees are overly defensive (we encountered one colony that I would requeen), and obviously these should be requeened. The vast majority of feral bees in florida are not overly defensive, and are (obviously) more fit to survive/thrive in Florida than the standard commercial lines.

These feral bees are the obvious source of well adapted genetics for bees kept in Florida. To reject them out of hand due to the fact that they are unmanaged (as the BMP outlines) is asinine. Select and breed from the best (survivors, temperment, productivity), and requeen the rest...just as one would do in any breeding program.

From what I could understand, breeders in Florida have largely (not quite completely) given up breeding their own lines of bees...and instead purchase II mated queens to graft from every year....queens not from Florida. This is not bee breeding anymore...this is simple mechanical queen rearing. Stock cannot be "improved", only "replaced" by such a method, and the mechanisms of nature (where a dynamic environment is met with dynamic genetic traits) are put out to pasture.

The feral population proves that the current "EHB" stock that is being used in Florida is lacking. The feral population is the source for desirable genetics, and observation of feral bees (many of which are not overly defensive and quite manageable) gives us a glimpse of the possibilities for managed bees.

deknow


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

deknow said:


> we were in Florida to speak at the state beekeeping conference. One of the largest migratory pollinators on the east coast attended our talks, and insisted that bees could not be kept in large colonies in Florida, could not be kept without feeding, and that bees kept without treatments (and without constant splits to knock down the mite population) will not survive in Florida.


I am no expert on the subject, but I wonder if it really is a fair comparison to make comparing success with your methods with a huge migratory operation of thousands of hives... My guess is that no treatment and other options are much more time consuming in this size operation and the cost of losses much higher.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

deknow said:


> The vast majority of feral bees in florida are not overly defensive, and are (obviously) more fit to survive/thrive in Florida than the standard commercial lines.


Is there data on this? If so why the BMP's on requeening?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Hi Karla,

1. I was not suggesting methods for commercial migratory pollination, and the beekeeper in question was telling other attendees that what we were describing (large colonies with "unlimited broodnests", no feeding, no treatments) cannot work in Florida. I readily acknowledge that keeping bees in Florida is different than keeping bees in Massachusetts in many obvious and not obvious ways....in our talk we stressed that we knew there would be differences (and pointed out during our talk some obvious problems that would have to be deal with differently). Some things are easier (nectar and/or pollen available most of the year) and some things harder (SHB will take over given the least opportunity). My point is that it's generally considered not possible to keep bees without treatments in Florida (save the fact that I know a few who do)...yet there is a robust feral population that is thriving.

2. The AHB scare is good for pest removal companies (would you believe that beekeepers have been busted in Florida for using chemicals during removals....for using H2O to wash honey off their hands...I'm not kidding), good for pollinating beekeepers (if the ferals are eliminated, every farmer needs to rent bees), and good for the queen rearing business (BMP in FL calls for twice a year requeening if I'm not mistaken). There is a legitimate concern about AHB...there are some that are really nasty, and you have to have beekeepers and members of the public prepared to deal with this possibility when they encounter bees. With that said, someone who removed 3500 colonies last year in southern Florida said at most, 10% were mean enough to warrant requeening...requeening the other 90% was nothing more than tossing good genetics down the toilet.....it isn't quite "required", but it makes things easier for those running businesses to follow BMPs.

deknow


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

deknow said:


> The idea that "best management practices" prohibit beekeepers from selecting from feral survivors the best tempered and most productive locally adapted bees is asinine on every level.


Public safety vs lost feral genes. Asinine on every level sounds a bit extreme. Jerry Hayes and Co aren't complete idiots.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

My druthers are to strongly support the BMP's and trust the folks who developed them. But on the other hand I think we are naive to believe that politics does not play an influencing role, and various industries within a State (queen producers, package producers) are part of that political equation.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

deknow said:


> I readily acknowledge that keeping bees in Florida is different than keeping bees in Massachusetts in many obvious and not obvious ways


I gotcha- sometimes it is hard to discern what is meant in writing. As with many posts and discussions, we need to be careful what we are comparing (and whose advise we follow) when sharing our methods and ideas... Northern based methods to Southern, nectar and pollen rich areas to the desert, and especailly (IMHO) small backyard beekeepers to large commerical operations.

It would be really interesting to see if anyone has done some Tom Seeley type work in studying feral bees in FL over time.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Politics aside Karla, I see valid arguments for both sides...which is why I wouldn't choose the phrase 'asinine on every level'.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

beemandan said:


> Public safety vs lost feral genes. Asinine on every level sounds a bit extreme. Jerry Hayes and Co aren't complete idiots.


I never called anyone a "complete idiot" (and I wrote the book on complete idiots and beekeeping )

If public safety is the concern, you have to put things in perspective:

1. There are enough feral bees around that they routinely occupy any available cavity...as I said, Keith did 3500 removals last year (just one person). These are population of bees that are thriving DESPITE the BMPs. They move into walls, water meter boxes, telephone pedistals, street lights, under trailers, etc. These are not colonies that are significantly (if at all) affected by the BMP's. Believe me, when we were driving from removal to removal, it wasn't uncommon to see 5 or more pest control trucks on the road...they handle lots of pests (not just bees), but lots of feral colonies are killed (my guess would be many times more than are removed), and they still are thriving.

The managed "domesticated" bees (and their genetics) can't compete effectively against this population...and the BMP's only reinforce this dichotomy. How can things move forward? If beekeepers were selecting from the best proven feral stock, they would have bees that can compete with the feral population, and the selection for temperament will, over time, influence the feral population.

2. "Public Safety"? Really? I'm not making fun of public safety, but there are all kinds of public safety issues that have more impact than AHB (and certainly more than preventing beekeepers from selecting from the best tempered feral bees available)...ban putbulls, stricter requirements for elderly drivers, pull a few more drunk drivers off the street, etc. If public safety is one's goal, then bees cannot be the only focus.

deknow


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

deknow said:


> I never called anyone a "complete idiot" (and I wrote the book on complete idiots and beekeeping )


I know…I chose the phrase intentionally. My sense of humor isn’t always obvious.
While not specifically calling them complete idiots you did say that their recommendations were ‘asinine on every level’. Pretty nearly the same thing in my opinion. 



deknow said:


> there are all kinds of public safety issues that have more impact than AHB….If public safety is one's goal, then bees cannot be the only focus.


When some tourist gets killed by ‘killer bees’ in Florida, it will fall to Jerry Hayes to explain what the state is doing to protect its citizens and visitors. Pit bulls, elderly drivers and drunk drivers aren’t in his sphere. You surely aren’t suggesting that he ignore the dangers of AHB until all more serious (in your opinion) public safety threats have been eliminated.

In an effort to avoid expanding this dialog into some broad, rambling discussion , I’m only saying that, in my opinion, ‘asinine on every level’ goes too far.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Here in central Florida we certainly have some true "feral" colonies that have survived for several years untouched, I know where several of these are and have chosen to leave them alone catching swarms from these true "feral" colonies throughout the year. We have incorporated several of these "feral" queens into our breeding program. I have noticed an huge increase in people, especially new beekeepers, who assume that because a colony is living in a tree, a wall, or a pole, etc that it is feral, they see huge combs in a wall and assume the bees have been there for years.....IMO most of the removals in our area of Florida are actually swarms from hobby and commercial hives....twice a year in early spring (orange blossom) and early fall (brazillian pepper tree) commercial beekeepers bring their hives to FL, for instance right now in a 2-3 county area there are over 100,000 hives on the ground a majority from out of the area and state. In the spring orange bloom in some areas you can drive down roads adjacent to the groves and bee colonies and see multiple, and many swarms hanging in trees, these swarms move into any hole they can find and with our warm weather and long warm season can build a tremendous amount of comb in short order....which at time leads some to believe they have been there for years...when in fact they have only been there for months. I chose to re-queen most of the swarms I catch for this reason rather than AHB, The unknow age, susceptibilty to pests and disease and to a small degree genetics of these commercial and hobby swarm queens dictate that I get rid of them and put a "known" queen line back in the box. AHB is a very minor concern to us, we have rarely encountered them, and open mate some of the most gentle and productive queens I have ever worked with.

Im certainly not doubting yours or your friends experience as to determining what is truly a long term surviving "feral" colony, however in my area of Florida more often that not that "feral" "survivor" colony recently left a white box in the spring and probably wont survive a year or two on their own between the mites and beetle problems we have to deal with (year round), and the lack of treatments they depended on to keep all the bee maladies at bay. 

If I dont know where they came from, meaning one of the true "feral" colonies I spoke of, I gladly "dump them down the toilet" as you say, and put what I know works back in the box... which helps keep them healthy, productive and AHB free.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Enjoyed looking at the pics, although I'd have to say most of those colonies don't look more than a year or two old to me. 

I'm not sure how those bees would remain a genetically seperate population from the managed hives, or why commercial beekeepers would deliberately breed bees that "can't compete". To be straight up I think the bees will be the same as the managed hives around them

Other thing I was wondering, this guy collects 3,500 hives annually, what does he do with all the bees?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

beemandan said:


> I know…I chose the phrase intentionally. My sense of humor isn’t always obvious.
> While not specifically calling them complete idiots you did say that their recommendations were ‘asinine on every level’. Pretty nearly the same thing in my opinion.


smart and well meaing people in all kinds of positions (from parents to govt officials) make all kinds of decisions/policies that are stupid and counterproductive. i think i can criticize the policy without making it personel to jerry and company.



> When some tourist gets killed by ‘killer bees’ in Florida, it will fall to Jerry Hayes to explain what the state is doing to protect its citizens and visitors.


exactly. this is a political/PR decision, not a public safety decision. if public safety were the primary concern, the policy would look a lot different.



> In an effort to avoid expanding this dialog into some broad, rambling discussion , I’m only saying that, in my opinion, ‘asinine on every level’ goes too far.


the problem is that the policy of requireing requeening of any feral colony, and to requeen twice a year regardless of temperment doesn't solve any problem. replacing queens from overly defensive colonies, and allowing strong well tempered bees to become breeding stock actually helps improve the situation.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

peacekeeperapiaries said:


> Im certainly not doubting yours or your friends experience as to determining what is truly a long term surviving "feral" colony, however in my area of Florida more often that not that "feral" "survivor" colony recently left a white box in the spring and probably wont survive a year or two on their own between the mites and beetle problems we have to deal with (year round), and the lack of treatments they depended on to keep all the bee maladies at bay.


a couple of thoughts here.

1. if what you say above is true, then there are no AHB in florida? Or if there are, they are only present because they keep coming in on ships and/or beekeepers are breeding them?

2. a marked queen is a good indication that bees came from a kept colony. also, our observations (made in massachusetts) are when bees from 5.4mm comb are "shaken down" without foundation and build their own comb, they build about 5.1-5.2mm cells. the removals we saw, the cells were smaller than one would expect from a recent escapee.

deknow


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

deknow said:


> the removals we saw, the cells were smaller than one would expect from a recent escapee.


Hmmmm...now what would the typical cell size be for AHB?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Looking at your pics leads me to some different conclusions.

Don't have time to comment on them all, but here's these anyway:-




These bees are not fully regressed, so clearly are a swarm that came from a hive on standard sized comb foundation












This hive is quite young, probably a swarm that arrived only months ago.












This hive also looks like a recent swarm, that has swarmed again, or has a major health issue.












And despite these hives being quite young, a decent swag of varroa is already starting to build up.










If these pics are used to support the idea of a superior "wild" bee population that is independant of the managed hives, i think it is a case of using data to support already held ideas, or people seeing what they want to see.

Objectively, just looks like a bunch of swarms, from anywhere.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

deknow said:


> the problem is that the policy of requireing requeening of any feral colony, and to requeen twice a year regardless of temperment doesn't solve any problem. replacing queens from overly defensive colonies, and allowing strong well tempered bees to become breeding stock actually helps improve the situation.deknow


There is no policy that REQUIRES anyone to requeen ferals here in Florida...it is a reccomendation only. In my opinion I believe the state has taken the AHB issue a little far..but in this litigious society I guess they feel they must. As stated I have caught feral swarms and kept some of these queens for my own breeding stock, most swarms I chose to requeen with my stock as I dont know where the swarm and queen came from, AHB is not really a factor in my decision, we have very rarely encountered AHB in our area, and the few swarms I thought might be AHB got a new queen right quick.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

deknow said:


> a couple of thoughts here.
> 
> 1. if what you say above is true, then there are no AHB in florida? Or if there are, they are only present because they keep coming in on ships and/or beekeepers are breeding them?
> 
> 2. a marked queen is a good indication that bees came from a kept colony. also, our observations (made in massachusetts) are when bees from 5.4mm comb are "shaken down" without foundation and build their own comb, they build about 5.1-5.2mm cells. the removals we saw, the cells were smaller than one would expect from a recent escapee. deknow


1. Oh yes we have some AHB in Florida, Im pretty sure i have run across a few AHB colonies and swarms, however they are very few and far between. I dont think it is as prevalent as the state makes everyone believe and I dont think it warrants requeening every cut-out or swarm, as stated above when I know where they came from and they prove over time to be good strong productive queens which show good resistance to mites and problems...I KEEP THEM...and breed from them.

2. Funny you mention marked queens, i caught 2 swarms this year with marked queens, my guess is probably hobbyist bees based on the area and most of the commercials I know and many i talk to dont mark their queens....I dont mark mine. Good info on the cell size issue, I dont do cut outs, and dont measure cell size... I could as one of the busiest cut-out guys in our county gives me all the comb he removes (he does not use chemicals) and i melt it down. 

As I mentioned I was not questioning YOUR ability to determine a true feral swarm that has been in place for a few years with no treatments, I know your an experienced beekeeper, I was merely passing on that many new and inexperienced beekeepers in my area think every swarm and cut out they do is a "true" feral colony that has survived for many years without mans intrusion and therefore must be great "survivor stock"....IMO (and experience) in my area that is usually not the case, the majority of the combs I see coming in from the cut-outs are fairly new combs less than a year old.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

oldtimer,

1. these cells are smaller than we see from LC bees put directly on foundationless, despite being smaller than standard foundation.

2. that "young hive" has already had at least 1/2 the comb removed....see other photos in the gallery to see more of the combs. some comb was removed before the entire wall was removed.

3. yes, the "monk bees" recently swarmed. also, look at the picture preceding this one to see how unprotected this colony is.

4. 2 varroa on a developing drone brood (photographed specifically because there was varroa) is hardly an indicator of an "infestation". i've seen more mites on drone brood in colonies that are heavily treated.

deknow


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

deknow said:


> oldtimer,
> 
> 1. these cells are smaller than we see from LC bees put directly on foundationless, despite being smaller than standard foundation.


I realise this. However, they are still not "fully" regresssed, which according to the small cell literesture I've read, can be as small as 4.7, and below. If these bees are a genuinely self sustaining seperate population, they would have to be fully regressed.

Other thought that crossed my mind, this photo is the piece of comb you chose to photograph, to illustrate your point. So i'm assuming it was the best example you could get.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> I realise this. However, they are still not "fully" regresssed, which according to the small cell literesture I've read, can be as small as 4.7, and below. If these bees are a genuinely self sustaining seperate population, they would have to be fully regressed.


yes, cell sizes can be down to 4.7 (or smaller). there are a number of factors that influence cell size in various populations. with that said, i'm not sure how you get from "there" to "if they are not as small as cells that i've seen reported, then they are obviously oversized."

i don't know what a "proper" cell size is for florida, and it does not see that you do either.



> Other thought that crossed my mind, this photo is the piece of comb you chose to photograph, to illustrate your point. So i'm assuming it was the best example you could get.


...you are assuming quite a bit. 

you are assuming that we weren't guests tagging along with someone that is trying to make a living (on the tail end of a state beekeeping conference where he was responsible for most of the production, and had a few hundred people over to his house for a BBQ) and that the primary concern was not to take pictures and document feral colonies, but to catch up on the waiting list for removals.

you are assuming that this wasn't simply a handy piece of brood comb that had been placed horizontally across the top of a bucket and that i had a few seconds to place a business card and take a shot with the point and shoot camera that was on my belt.

...and if i were trying to "cherry pick" photos to show "mite fighting bees" on smaller comb, would i really include a photo of a drone brood with 2 mites on it?

what are you accusing me of?

and, for the purpose of argument, if we assume that these are simply escaped domestic bees, why does the state of florida require their removal (and strongly encourage their destruction and/or requeening)?

deknow


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Have often wondered if anyone has ever researched the advantages that hives in the wild (depending of course on where they choose to locate) might have over managed hives in that mites that fall are unable to return to the cluster. Wondering if that advantage might even be a bigger advantage than cell size. Not entirely sure how a controlled study might be set up.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Fair enough Deknow, I accept your word on those points.


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## Monkadelic (Feb 5, 2010)

deknow said:


> yes, many of these removals are from in ground water meter boxes (which could also simply be called "swarm traps"). he can do most of these in 5-10 minutes (open box, find/clip/mark/cage the queen, shake bees into a nuc, and leave the nuc there until nightfall for pickup). sometimes he does 20 or more of these in a day.
> 
> keith does not save the comb (feeds the honey to bees, and the brood to the chickens).
> 
> deknow


My current hive is one from a water meter box in my old neighborhood that Keith removed in early November! They are doing quite well. I'm sorry that I missed you at the conference...


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