# II Breeder queens



## sharpdog (Jun 6, 2012)

That's interesting and good to know before I consider ordering breeders. Wish I had some advice for you, thanks for sharing. Hopefully someone has answers for you.

Luke


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## norton (Mar 19, 2005)

Hello,
II queen bees should perform and live as long as naturally mated queens - IF the II procedure is carried out properly. Good pre and post II care is essential for good results. 
Best regards
Norton.


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## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Breeder queens are often *old*, which may have more to do with your problems than the fact that they are II. The ones I see advertised are usually three years old, while a poorly inseminated queen should not last that long. Even with great genetics, excellent queens do eventually stop being as productive as they once were.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

I would say go back to whoever you got the II Breeder from that lasted for 3 years!! Are they superceding after the first winter vs. as soon as they're out of the cage?? I don't think superceding in the spring following one year is unusual. One good summer season would be what I would expect and be delighted if they overwinter and get partway through spring and summer. 

Dominic, I'm amazed that your finding three year old II queens available in Canada. That's not the norm here in the US.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

My experience is that if you get an II breeder through a second season you are doing pretty good. I figure that's all you really need as you can take a lot of grafts off in a single year and analyze their offspring for breeding potential the following year. Aren't you really going "blind" on a breeder queen anyway? I never take too many grafts off of a single breeder. How do you really know for sure you will like the progeny?


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Sorry for the stupid question, but what the heck is a II queen? Instrumentally Inseminated?


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Brad Bee - that is correct. I.I. = Instrumentally Inseminated.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

How do you all house your II breeder queens?


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

kilocharlie said:


> Brad Bee - that is correct. I.I. = Instrumentally Inseminated.


I wonder why beekeeping didn't just use the term, AI, for Artificially Inseminated like the animal husbandry folks do?


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Pine Ridge - I'd strongly encourage you to read Dr. Susan Cobey's article submitted to Apimondia in 2007 titled, "Comparison Studies of Instrumentally Inseminated and Naturally Mated Honeybee Queens and Factors Affecting Their Performance".

It is posted on her website, www.honeybeeinsemination.com . The article is a 21-page download that is probably best printed out on paper, and is one of the best reads on the subject. 

From reading this article, I got all the factors straightened out, learned that if done properly, I.I. queens can and do out-perform naturally mated queens, and learned to do a dry run with an empty cage to the insemination lab to figure out timing of the postal carrier.

A good shipping cage for queens and drones to be inseminated is shown in Dr. Harry H. Laidlaw's book, Contemporary Queen Rearing.

Every article and book chapter posted on Dr. Cobey's website is excellent and worthy of reading and reading all the entries in the bibliographies, too.

Another thing I thought of was to allow the insemination lab to draw the semen out of the drones, inseminate the queens, and to see if there is a nearby breeder who can keep them in nucs until the colony has grown strong enough for shipping as a nuc, thus eliminating time that would be spent en route with nowhere to lay eggs (perhaps one BIG factor in reducing performance of I.I. queens).


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

Thanks I will look into that article. The problem I'm having with breeders isn't initial acceptance or productivity, it's how long they last. But, after talking to a breeder today and getting some advice I feel better about the problems I personally have had in the last 12 months.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

It could be that the lab you are using is administering straight semen with less-than-ideal mixing instead of 24-hour mixed drone semen spun in a centrifuge to concentrate it. A dose of .08 microliters of concentrated semen gives at least 5 million sperm, and she should be able to lay a solid pattern for 3+ years on that, unless subjected to large stresses like massive mite populations, etc.

If allowed to go out and mate naturally soon after instrumental insemination, they may perform every bit as well as any queen I've ever bred. Getting multiple years off of one breeder queen is a big advantage if you are having success with her.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Dan, are you able to share that advice??


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

It was recommended that I allow the II breeders to build up more into a larger to full size colony. The constant manipulation of a nuc throws off the colonies balance. Makes sense.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Brad Bee said:


> I wonder why beekeeping didn't just use the term, AI, for Artificially Inseminated like the animal husbandry folks do?


Both terms are acceptable in the bee breeding community, though I notice I.I. is more common in usage.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Regarding housing _breeder queens_, they stay in their own hive with their own colony until I isolate them for laying eggs. 

For this queen isolation I make a "Queen Jail", a 4.5" wide wooden box with queen excluder sides that has a wood and sheet metal lid and hangs inside a standard Langstroth hive box just like a frame. Inside it are 3 slightly shorter frames that are drawn out into comb just before queen rearing season (a top bar works, too). The queen jail keeps her laying eggs in one place so I don't have to look all over the hive for the right age larvae.

As far as I.I. queens that arrive from a service, they go directly into nucs or re-queening hives under a Laidlaw queen introduction cage, ASAP.


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## WilliamsHoneyBees (Feb 17, 2010)

kilocharlie said:


> As far as I.I. queens that arrive from a service, they go directly into nucs or re-queening hives
> nder a Laidlaw queen introduction cage, ASAP.


 Are you allowing these nucs to grow to full size colonies or are you manageing them to stay nucs?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

kilocharlie said:


> It could be that the lab you are using is administering straight semen with less-than-ideal mixing instead of 24-hour mixed drone semen spun in a centrifuge to concentrate it. A dose of .08 microliters of concentrated semen gives at least 5 million sperm, and she should be able to lay a solid pattern for 3+ years on that, unless subjected to large stresses like massive mite populations, etc.


What's the name of the lab following the procedures you outlined above?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Breeder queen is still a bee. She will be subjected to the normal bee doing normal bee's way 
every Spring. If the hive is too large then they will have swarms as well. In long term sustainability
it is better to graft from these great daughters and raise your own drones for the desired genetic and
characteristics that you like. Or continue to buy them every year. I like the sustainable apiary on you tube.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

I am glad this thread was started. I am going to experiment with a VSH II queen and have one arriving next week. I was reading that it is best to supplement the hive with regular non VSH brood in order that the colony doesn't get saturated with pure VSH. 

Does anyone who has done this have a strategy that works? Perhaps by exchanging every other frame of brood as it is sealed. 

Would you recommend keeping a queen like this in a single deep, or a 5 frame nuc?

Any other tips would be appreciated.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> I was reading that it is best to supplement the hive with regular non VSH brood in order that the colony doesn't get saturated with pure VSH.


I've had lots of VSH II queens. Several years ago it was not uncommon to get breeders that simply could not support themselves. I found that these (in general) didn't produce daughters that were great queens either. Occasionally a daughter would thrive, but it took a lot of selection. The ones I've gotten in the past two years seem to be far more robust and as a result can thrive as normal bees. Now I rarely (if ever) provide supplemental brood to my breeders. VSH queens have improved quite a bit in the recent past, so hopefully we're on a stable path forward. 

Most of my breeders are in single deeps.


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I have a year old VSH II breeder. I started her off in a 5 frame nuc and kept her in the 5 frame nuc through the winter. This year I just kept adding a nuc box on top as needed. The nuc boxes where easier to take on and off when it was time to graft. I confined the queen to double 5 frame nuc with a queen excluder, and the hive now has 3, 5frame supers full of honey also these are all 5 frame deeps. About 2 weeks ago they started swarm cells and the II breeder was moved into another 5 frame nuc and she is building it up. I have been very happy with the daughter queens from my breeder, I requeened most of my hives last summer and they have done great this year. 

I haven't moved brood into this hive at all. If anything I have taken out a few frames to make splits or boost other hives. I have pretty much treated her like any other queen except I do check on her more often because I'm in the hive more getting out a frame for grafting.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Would keeping an II breeder queen in a nuc but replacing frames of brood with open comb be similar to keeping the II queen in a full-sized colony? Her ability to lay would not be hindered but the colony size would be kept down.

Tom


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Tom,

I tend to agree with your assessment. I really like to see how a breeder performs and part of that (at least for me) is getting a good sense on how her offspring behaves as the colony reaches full strength. Keeping breeder queens in artificially smaller hives is simply too much work for me, and if you don't stay on top of it can lead to swarming. Last year I played that game just find my clipped breeder on the ground with a handful of bees. She survived and all was well, but it surely could have had a different outcome. I'm sure others will disagree, but you gotta find a system that works for you given all your resources (time being one of the most critical resources).


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Pine Ridge Farms - (responding to your post #18) I should have used the term "increaser colonies" instead of "nucs". I'm building up my apiary, and managing them to grow into full size colonies. When I get large enough (~1,000 colonies per person), there will be over-wintered nucleus colonies for sale as well.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> ...Would you recommend keeping a queen like this in a single deep, or a 5 frame nuc? ....


(regarding your post #21) Controlling the bee volume-to-dead space ratio up there in cold country is near to the very heart of the skill of beekeeping. Too big of a box, they freeze, or grow sluggishly. Too small, they swarm or abscond.

One big help is making up a bunch of "hive dummies", which are wooden frames made into empty boxes. They hang just like honeycomb frames, taking up air volume that the bees won't have to heat up, burning lots of energy and using up stored honey. 

Hive dummies get placed next to the side of the hive box, not in amongst the cluster space. A great way to manage an increaser colony is to put 5 hive dummies in a 10-frame hive box, plus the 5-frame split of bees. Replace a hive dummy with a frame of foundation as the colony needs during spring buildup, often about one or two a week in the early spring, but keep an eye on the weather forecasts.

As the bees' population comes up, replace the dummies with frames of foundation or empty frames, with an eye on not leaving too much volume. Staying one or two frames ahead of the bees, depending on night time temperatures, keeps the volume efficiently heated by the bees shivering in night cluster. Managed properly, the bee population comes up very quickly, using as little honey stores as possible.

As your operation becomes larger, this becomes too much labor, and timing the move into larger hive boxes is your main control, but for the small and sideline beekeeper (say, up to maybe 250 hives), hive dummies are great management tools. Make lots of them, and probably a few different sizes. I even make some out of 5/8" plywood for when it looks like that would make better bee space in a hive - usually when I run 7 frames and a 2-gallon feeder.

This idea is not new - Dr. C.C. Miller wrote about hive dummies in Fifty Years Among the Bees, written in about 1915 and published in 1920. I wonder why they are used so little these days - Doc Miller's influence on American beekeeping was HUGE in his day.


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