# Rotating boxes, How often?



## cteddo (May 15, 2010)

Very curious as to how many times a year commercial keepers plan to rotate their boxes. I know spring for sure as I helped a keeper rotate last year. Lots of work.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm just a poor sideliner with between 100 and 200 hives usually. I don't rotate the boxes. As you say, it is a lot of work.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#stopswitching

"Some beekeepers, trusting the ways of bees less than I do, at this point routinely 'switch hive bodies,' that is, switch the positions of the two stories of each hive, thinking that this will induce the queen to increase her egg laying and distribute it more widely through the hive. I doubt, however, that any such result is accomplished, and in any case I have long since found that such planning is best left to the bees." --Richard Taylor, The Joys of Beekeeping


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

I usually reverse the boxes in the spring once it is warm enough and the bees are strong enough. This gives me the opportunity to clean the bottom boards of winter debris too. after reversing, a lot of the brood and bees are on the bottom and allows the bees to expand upwards.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I will reverse brood boxes and/or add deep supers only once, in the Spring when I am preparing for splitting a month later. I believe I did avoid swarming and that it did provide lots of frames of brood for making splits. But I would never argue w/ Richard Taylor.

My Philosophy is that one should gather advice from those who have come before, take it in and then do what seems best for yourself and your bees.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Never.

Crazy Roland, Entomological Engineer


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Once, in the spring during spring brood examinations.............Durn, Roland, you are now an Entomological Engineer. I have been away from the forum too long. Did not even get to go to your graduation. TED


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## cteddo (May 15, 2010)

Thank to all who respndeed to my question. I am curious how many colonies do you guys have?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Actually we don't rotate at all, we leave them right side up all year long.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I am curious how many colonies do you guys have? 

I have 250 bottoms and 200 tops and well over 500 boxes (not counting nucs and long hives etc.). I sometimes run out of tops and bottoms and use makeshift tops. That's not counting nucs, which I usually have several hundred of. So I usually say I have 200 hives, but I'm sure that number is lower at the moment.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

cteddo said:


> Thank to all who respndeed to my question. I am curious how many colonies do you guys have?


500+/-

And you?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> Actually we don't rotate at all, we leave them right side up all year long.


One rotates a globe. It remains right side up. Reversing Supers may be the more correct term. Or Reversing Brood Box Positions, perhaps.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> ..... 'thinking that this will induce the queen to increase her egg laying" --Richard Taylor, The Joys of Beekeeping


Well, I don't believe that reversing brood chambers increases the queen's egg laying, so I agree with Taylor. But, I believe that reversing brood chambers is a good management tool in swarm control. I reverse once on the Dandelion flow, this about 2 weeks after adding two medium extracting supers. This helps me maintain my colonies' strength for my early flows...no splitting in spring to eliminate swarming.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Palmer said:


> ...no splitting in spring to eliminate swarming.


I'll have to try that out. Maybe I'll have better success producing honey next year.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> One rotates a globe. It remains right side up. Reversing Supers may be the more correct term. Or Reversing Brood Box Positions, perhaps.


I was probably being a bit too cute there, a legitimate question was asked though I might argue that the axis could be horizontal as well. Back to the question at hand though. I am always reluctant to discuss the whole hive number thing but fwiw we operate a 4,000 +/- migratory operation. Dosent make me right on stuff it only means I run a few more hives than most. Rotation (or reversal) isnt part of what we normally do. I think reversing is a good tool in the spring once the weather has begun to warm up for those who winter in cold climates as it gives you a chance to clean off the bottom board and I pretty much agree with MP in that I am not convinced bigger hives normally result but it sure seems that it should help control the swarming urge. In addition it allows the bottom box to get cleaned up and properly maintained. I would NOT do any reversing too close to the winter season though as the disruption to the brood nest could hurt their ability to winter. I also would not reverse a small hive particularly if they are directly under the lid as the disruption might make them vulnerable to robbing and might hurt their ability to stay warm in cooler climates (a small hive in a double this time of year should have the bottom box taken away from them entirely).


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

350, going up, seeking quality, not quantity. Still recovering financially from CCD.

Ted - Got my Eng. degree in the bottom of a cereal box. That's normal, Eh?

Crazy Roland, Entomological Engineer.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> (a small hive in a double this time of year should have the bottom box taken away from them entirely).


Amen. And the entrance reduced down to almost nothing.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Somewhere around 2000 but have three employees counting me working as a crew. Roland my engineering degree will be from a cracker jacks box. TED


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## gregstahlman (Oct 7, 2009)

when we use to winter 1 1/2 stories in texas we would reverse in early february. without reversing, there was always more brood in the medium than in the deep and that doesn't work well when making splits. in mid april after splits were made we would reverse back so the medium was back on top of the deep. sure was hard work and rough on the back. dont run 1 1/2 stories anymore a because the medium is an inconvenience for making splits and also can't get as many on a semi load. run all singles now in the winter. 10,800 +/-hives


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jim lyon said:


> In addition it allows the bottom box to get cleaned up and properly maintained.


And I would add, it helps deal with crystallized honey in the top box. We often have combs of honey left over in the spring that sit in the hive and take up space. Reversing that box to the bottom board stimulates the bees to dig it out and open up the comb.


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## cteddo (May 15, 2010)

Mark I have 250 ish. So much to learn, still a very new beekeeper. I am known to ask THE dumbest questions. I find if I dont ask, mistakes are more commonly made. Thanks for all the ideas, some will work for me and some perhaps wont. And Jim I was a little worried I might have to get bees with wings that pivot for inverted flight. wwhhooooooeeewww


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Send any, so called, "dumb" questions to me via PM. I am much more compassionate and easy to get along w/ one on one.  Otherwise, people who Post on open Forums take their chances.


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

cteddo said:


> Thank to all who respndeed to my question. I am curious how many colonies do you guys have?


100 +/-


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## chillardbee (May 26, 2005)

Roland said:


> 350, going up, seeking quality, not quantity.


I've got a friend who goes to much for quantity and his quality suffers. He needs the numbers though because he needs to fill his pollination contracts and it seems like a viscous cycle because the qualitity for over wintering is lacking, then the following spring he goes on a splitting spree again. I'm so sick of doing pollination and though I've been in the same boat as my friend, I remember the days of keeping bees for the purpose of making honey where quality hives are important. I'm going back to my roots on that one, and keeping it simple.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I wonder about the reversing boxes thing.

I keep top bars now, and am building lang gear to expand this spring. But I cannot count the number of times lang people have told me or others that top bar hives won't work well or winter well because the bees like to "move up". But that's only in the winter.

The way I understand it, the bees are on an annual up and down movement by nature. They move up on the combs as they get into the stores and try to conserve energy in the winter. In the spring and summer, they want to move down. The queen lays and moves down, and the bees fill in behind her.

So why reverse boxes if she wants to move down anyway?

Adam


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## Gregg (Dec 22, 2003)

700.

Generally only time I reverse boxes is with nucs that were made up in the spring, usually just before or when honey supers are being put on. I run story & half hives (deep + medium, usually with the deep on top). Nucs are made up in a deep and then a medium put on top when ready. My feeders are in the deep box, and need to have the deep on top for the rest of the year to make feeding easy. Used to switch deep & medium when pulling honey or in the fall, but it's much easier in late spring/early summer. Regular hives (not nucs) never get switched.


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

cteddo said:


> Very curious as to how many times a year commercial keepers plan to rotate their boxes. I know spring for sure as I helped a keeper rotate last year. Lots of work.


Lots of commercial keepers do not




BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

We run 700 honey producing hives

I dont reverse, The bees are best alone in the top during our springs, and I allow them to expand into the second underneath. I will then take the strength in the bottom box as a full split or half split. 
Timing is everything to take a good split before they start making perversions to swarm

After I split I will again place the empty brood box underneath. No so called reversal 
They will always back fill the second and then go up with honey, not down. If the top is filled with honey and brood, they will hit the supers sooner leaving the bottom for teh queen


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

We Reverse everything each spring, scrape bottom boards, center brood down stairs, scrape all top bars, clean out any left over mite treatments, shake out any duds.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Yep, me too Keith. Reversing the brood chamber in the spring gets me into the hive. Any crystallized honey remaining from winter goes on the bottom board where the bees clean it out. I can better evaluate the cluster size and count the frames of brood...without actually handling frames. It gets the combs in the bottom of the colony...where sometimes they get chewed and pollen packed...up above the active broodnest where they can be restored and used by the bees. It allows me to grow powerful colonies that don't swarm as readily and with large clusters, go on to take advantage of whatever flows materialize.


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

I have 30+/- colonies that are in need of new comb/boxes. I was expecting to make new boxes & Pierco/Rite Cell frames to be ready in spring. My plan was to reverse boxes, put new deeps with extra wax coated frames & feed till the upper deep is drawn out. these colonies need both boxes swapped out as they are kinda of old. How do you introduce new equipment, & what could be expected for normalizing colonies w/honey production in mind? I hope to attempt raising some queens this year, I want to have a supply of new comb & volumn of bees. THX.


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## Happy Honey Farm (Feb 14, 2010)

Hey guys i'm not following why you don't reverse, I was told to put brood nest on the bottom and empty comb on top or at least move empty comb in the middle of the box. I only have 17 hives and been doing it for 6 years. sorry if it sounds dumb just trying to learn the best way. Hoping to double this year if we survive the winter.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

ya thats right but you be sure your reversing the boxes so that the bees can work the brood nest into it. 
If the hive is big, and there is no flow to be seen, and you arnt going to take the strength down, then sending the extra space up top is worth all the work. 
But lets say, your working big hives and you are in the midst of a heavey flow, reversing will mearly plug the top box. So what should you do? Either take down the strength or start supering! The big hives will always plug the top box if there is a flow happening regardless if you want them to send brood up. Adding more space during a flow to a big hive will get filled quicker than the queen will lay into it

So its all a matter of what your trying to achieve


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Hey guys i'm not following why you don't reverse

1) I don't want to disrupt and split the brood nest.
2) I don't want to lift 600 boxes just to set the bees back by making them rearrange their hive.
3) I see nothing to gain by this cost of my labor and the bees' labor.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#stopswitching


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## Happy Honey Farm (Feb 14, 2010)

Hey Michael Bush i'm not following do you revese or not? if not why run two deep brood nest?
Thanks for input.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

One box doesnt quite give enough space for the queen during her spring time brood rearing


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Hey Michael Bush i'm not following do you revese or not?

Not.

> if not why run two deep brood nest?

I don't anymore, but Ian answered that if you want to run deeps. Also, two deeps gives more stores in the spring for the buildup in Northern locations. I run more like three to five eight frame mediums for winter.


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