# Video of a bad 5 frame nuc?



## jjohnsind (Apr 24, 2014)

Start of second year beekeeper here. I've only bought one nuc before, but surely this wouldn't qualify as a "standard" 5 frame nuc? What I got: a wooden box made from OSB & plywood (had lots of nooks & crannies for hive beetles, so yes, I saw quite a few upon opening the box), one wooden frame (it had to be old - it was pretty dark and the comb was pretty dark as well) with really dark comb along the bottom edges that the bees didn't even seem to want to be on. One frame did have a great, solid capped brood coverage on both sides. The second frame had some capped brood on one side, empty cells on the other side. The third frame was drawn but pretty much empty (on plastic foundation, but the comb seemed old too). The 4th & 5th frames (plastic) were completely empty - no comb. There was NO honey stores anywhere on the frames and what pollen was there seemed dark & old. The seller's definition of his nucs were (when I asked before pre-purchasing): 4 full frames of bees, brood & stores, the 5th frame would be drawn and they should be working it. The nuc was to be built from an overwintered hive that was treated in the Fall and a new queen installed and laying for a month before delivery. No guarantee on hive beetles, but he said there wouldn't be an infestation of them. One day after hiving, I saw a lot of fecal stains on the hive sides & landing board so I may have nosema issues as well.

Keep in mind the video was the SECOND nuc I received in exchange from the day before - the first one I got had 2 frames of bees, everything else was EMPTY (not even comb) & the 5th frame didn't even exist. I have to believe this guy meant well but probably didn't put the time or inspections on these nucs before selling them - I will just personally never do business with him again (he hasn't answered any emails since I contacted him after the second nuc). I think he sold quite a few this year, I'm curious to see if word gets out from other customers or if I'm the only unlucky one. One bright spot for me is the capped brood pattern is really good - if my queen was the one that laid it, that is.

Anyway, lesson is: get referrals (asking questions, in my case, meant nothing). The guy had a great Facebook presence, as well as a good website - in the end that meant nothing. 

I had a great nuc from Graham Bees (Morgantown, IN) last year and regret not going back there again (they deliver much later, so I picked the guy that promised an earlier delivery date). Our state bee inspector has been great with advice on how to nurse & treat this nuc back to strength.


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## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Looks pretty good to me. Nice brood pattern. The staining is more than likely being caused by just the stress of being shuffled around. How much did you pay?


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

for your reference the 2 nucs I just received for 150 each and 5 frames. one plastic, 2 or 3 old and used, and 2 newer but from last year. bees on every frame were 2 deep. I literally couldn't see most of the cells due to amount of bees. about 2 frames of honey and pollen. 2 of brood and last was a mix. even after moving all the frames I had the bottom of the nuc 3 deep in bees.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

sounds like the first one was a dud, but with a little feed, this one is ready to explode. One like that locally would probably go for about the same price as a package with shipping around here so apx $135 and honestly I'd rather have that one than the $150 one I bought that was busting at the seams and swarmed 2 days after installation. The lesson in this is inspect them before you take them home, even if it means you lose a few forragers.


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## jjohnsind (Apr 24, 2014)

Yeah, I was really tempted to inspect on the second one but was worried about how many foragers would be lost. I am optimistic about when the large frame of capped brood hatches that things may take off. I'm guessing if the seller would have waited a couple of more weeks (along with feeding), this might have been a respectable nuc. Disappointed that are no honey stores here though - they must have been robbed before delivery.

My nuc was $160.00, I'm glad to hear the optimism here!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jjohnsind said:


> Disappointed that are no honey stores here though - they must have been robbed before delivery.
> 
> My nuc was $160.00, I'm glad to hear the optimism here!


As far as I am concerned it is not a nuc unless it has honey and not syrup. A nuc (my definition) is an established hive. One that should be dependant on nature not a beekeeper nursing it to life. I can't view the video, too much traffic.


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## WBVC (Apr 25, 2013)

My first Nucs were not great. The frames were so old the top bar was actually rotten through and did not get nice frames of brood. The bees didn't seem to care as much As I did. They multiplied regardless.


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## jjohnsind (Apr 24, 2014)

I guess dropbox is not a good way to host a video. Its been changed to youtube, hopefully, people can view now.


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## philip.devos (Aug 10, 2013)

Yeah, I've received a bad nuc before, but no empty frames like the 2 plastic ones you showed; at least you have a good bit of capped brood.

Re: hive beetles. I have found that there is no substitute for controlling SHB's like frames crowded with bees. You don't need to be concerned about the empty frames, like the 2 plastic ones you showed, as there is nothing for the SHB's to lay eggs in (stores or brood). I now have about a dozen of the SHB traps (unused) which I no longer bother using, as I keep the bees a little on the crowded side. I DO HAVE small hive beetles, but they are surrounded by thousands of bees, which keep them from starting a SHB nursery.


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

Surely not a strong nuc. I would not call that a five frame nuc. You might want to consider putting that colony in a five frame box until they get on their feet. A ten frame box for that colony is too big.

Shane


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

I hope you put some feed on those bees. They don't have a thing to eat. You got shafted. I'd say 2 of those plastic frames could have been drawn this year. I've got some wooden frame that look like the one you got. It doesn't take many years to get to that point. I see no problem with putting that frame in a hive.


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## 2Tall (Apr 18, 2010)

Seems pretty week to me for the price, if you still need bees and can come to 47802 I think I still can sell a few nucs or brood frames.I think all the frames should be full of something and maybe a 5th with some un drawn to keep them busy.SHB love those plastic frames with holes every place.They will build up I am sure but the flow will be over by then, I would see if the seller will make it right things can happen.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jjohnsind said:


> Its been changed to youtube, hopefully, people can view now.


I see nothing wrong with the frames that you have. They are not too old. They are going to need feed though. With such a solid frame of brood that makes me think they were not from the queen in your hive if you have a queen. I would put the empty frames on each side of the occupied frames with a follower board on one side. Maybe your flow is not that strong although with all that brood there won't be many foragers available to go out and get anything.
First and foremost a hive needs bees and a queen. Then it needs food, and then it needs brood to carry on. Unfortunately the colony puts a priority on brood over food. They are gamblers and sometimes they starve.


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## TurnTex (Mar 6, 2015)

Count your blessings! A 5 frame nuc around here in Central Texas is $180-245 this year. Beeweaver just announced their new nucs for early delivery next year for *$345!*. There nucs are 4 frame with an internal feeder.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Looks like somebody pulled frames from here and there to build the nuc, gave it some time to build up to a proper nuc (which it did not do), then sold it as it was. I'd also bet the queen was an introduction to a frame of brood from elsewhere. With a pattern that solid, I'd expect to see work elsewhere in slightly earlier stages, down to egg... just don't see it. On the other hand, if this was a second box, maybe frames were robbed from this one to give to another in an earlier round of sales, and it didn't catch back up yet. Buyer beware!


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## jjohnsind (Apr 24, 2014)

Yes, Buyer Beware is definitely the moral of this story. You can't go by what the seller states either, as this was the the seller's response to my question asking about what his definition of what he sells as a 5 frame nuc:

John,

When I make up the nucs from my hives, I place 4 frames from the hive in each nuc, plus a fifth empty frame for them to grow into. At this time, I inspect for the general health of the colony. If any disease condition is noted, I do not use anything from that hive to make up a nuc. The nucs are then given a queen cell, and the nuc is checked every 2 weeks for approximately 6 weeks to ensure that it is maturing well and that the new queen is producing well. The nuc is finally inspected within 3 days of pickup.

I do not routinely perform preventive treatments on the nucs. Rather, if a nuc has a problem I quarantine it and do not sell it. The hives that the nucs were made from will have received treatment for varroa mites the previous fall. Since most mites exist within the brood cells, you should assume that mites are present in the nuc but well under control. Also, I can’t guarantee the absolute absence of hive beetles, since they can fly into a hive or nuc at any time, but I do guarantee that the nuc will not be infested with hive beetle larvae.

My expectation for the nuc is that at least 4 frames will be fully built out with comb, and that they are working on the 5th. It’s good to leave them a little room so that they don’t decide to swarm the week before you’re supposed to pick it up. Three of the frames will likely be occupied by brood in various stages of development. Since the queen will have been laying for 4 to 6 weeks, many of the workers will be her offspring and there will be new workers emerging daily.

The guy seemed credible, but I don't think I got what I was should have. Maybe I'm just the unlucky one, but I think there will be a lot of learning opportunity getting this hive up to speed.


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## Chris Muncy (Apr 2, 2015)

TurnTex said:


> Count your blessings! A 5 frame nuc around here in Central Texas is $180-245 this year. Beeweaver just announced their new nucs for early delivery next year for *$345!*. There nucs are 4 frame with an internal feeder.


Holy crap! They must be trying to make up for their losses during the flooding.


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## sweatybetty (Apr 24, 2015)

jjohnsind said:


> Yes, Buyer Beware is definitely the moral of this story. You can't go by what the seller states either, as this was the the seller's response to my question asking about what his definition of what he sells as a 5 frame nuc:
> 
> John,
> 
> ...



i think i would respond something like this

"sir, i do not feel that i received what i paid for or what you advertised. therefore, i will not do business with you again or recommend your services to anyone who asks."

never know, he may offer a partial refund


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## bison (Apr 27, 2011)

The good news is that you have what appears to be a good queen and lots of brood that can grow nicely (if fed like crazy now). The bad news is that you certainly didn't get what the seller says he was selling (four frames of drawn comb).

Send him the link and ask for a partial refund since you were shorted two frames of drawn comb. I'd call that maybe $30 worth.


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## TurnTex (Mar 6, 2015)

Have you called him about this one and let him know what you found and that you are not pleased? There is no way he can make it right if you don't. As a small business guy myself, if my customers don't let me know when I have failed to meet their expectations, then I can not improve and do what I need to do to make it right by them. Would much rather have someone call and complain than just be quiet and assume all is well with them.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

With a nice brood pattern like that I'd expect to see more uncapped larva, but then, I couldn't see much detail in the video. Did you see a queen?


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## Sovek (Apr 27, 2014)

Or the guy could be just saying what his customers want to hear, which judging from the video, is whats going on, because by his own word, he should have seen that the hive wasnt where it it was supposed to be. 

I'm working on a mission statement, policy and quality statement for my nuc business that I'm slowly but surely working on, lemme quote most of whats written. 



> Here at Paris Mountain Apiaries, I believe my word and business name should be trusted among the beekeeping circles both in-state and out of state. Too many times have I read of stories where new beekeepers have purchased a nuc or some other product sold by a beekeeper that is not what he or she expected, nor paid for. In some cases, people never got what they paid for at all. I am not that kind of person, ever.
> 
> If you pay for one of my five frame overwintered nucs, that's what you get. You get five frames of fully drawn comb. You'll get at least three frames of brood and one frame of honey, with the other being at least a mix of both brood and honey, but I will always try for four frames of brood. The queen is also overwintered from summer queens where drones are in abundance and rain is limited so you dont run the risk of getting a drone layer.
> 
> All nucs will be inspected the day before pickup to verify that the hive is in good shape and strong. However, you still have the right to inspect your purchase before it even leaves the bee yard. If you don't find the nuc satisfactory, I will do everything in my power to make it satisfactory, including swapping frames from a full production colony or even a different nuc. You as a customer deserve nothing less.


People like what John dealt with and a certain person that runs a nuc selling apiary whos acronym is LCA is whats making me want to sell nucs in the first place so you can have someone you actually trust.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

I wouldn't say that's a bad nuc, but it's not one I would buy. It's a 3 frame as far as I am concerned.

It's pretty common to offload old comb and frames in a nuc


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## jjohnsind (Apr 24, 2014)

TurnTex said:


> Have you called him about this one and let him know what you found and that you are not pleased? There is no way he can make it right if you don't. As a small business guy myself, if my customers don't let me know when I have failed to meet their expectations, then I can not improve and do what I need to do to make it right by them. Would much rather have someone call and complain than just be quiet and assume all is well with them.


One of the reasons why I haven't publicly named him, but, I do have 3 emails into him and haven't got a response in 5 days so far. He never gave a phone number and his website and Facebook page doesn't list one either. He sells several hundred nucs, so no way he could have gotten all those inspections in during the time frame he states (maybe I just got the couple he missed). A return & refund wouldn't do me any good as it would leave me without any bees and probably too late to get any more. I thought a partial would have been appropriate as some mentioned (or a frame of brood & a frame of honey) and this wouldn't even take into account the 2 out-of-town trips I had to take. 

I definitely wanted to call attention to what could happen when buying nucs. Definitely get referrals, don't trust anything verbal (shame that this is the case), and inspect before leaving (I'm still not sure how this can be done without loosing bees). I got a great one last year from Graham Beeworks in Morgantown (IN) - I didn't appreciate how great until I got this one!


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## jjohnsind (Apr 24, 2014)

tanksbees said:


> I wouldn't say that's a bad nuc, but it's not one I would buy. It's a 3 frame as far as I am concerned.
> 
> It's pretty common to offload old comb and frames in a nuc


I'm definitely willing to work with what I got - I imagine, if fed, it may even turn into what its supposed to be in a couple of weeks. The 3 frames had 1 & 1/2 empty comb, and zero honey stores. I also don't feel that a buyer should have to treat a newly acquired nuc right off the bat - our state inspector is recommending treating for varoa & nosema right now. I kind of felt sorry for these bees some. LOL.


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## jjohnsind (Apr 24, 2014)

Tim KS: There were no uncapped larvae, which somewhat makes me question whether this nuc was just parts put together or an actual functioning nuc. I also wonder if possibly the queen knows not to lay eggs when there are no stores in the hive (that could also explain the gap). Yes, I found the queen - I just hope that that brood pattern is actually HERS!


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

DrJeseuss said:


> Looks like somebody pulled frames from here and there to build the nuc, gave it some time to build up to a proper nuc (which it did not do), then sold it as it was. I'd also bet the queen was an introduction to a frame of brood from elsewhere. With a pattern that solid, I'd expect to see work elsewhere in slightly earlier stages, down to egg... just don't see it. On the other hand, if this was a second box, maybe frames were robbed from this one to give to another in an earlier round of sales, and it didn't catch back up yet. Buyer beware!


So you're saying it was basically a split he received. That could be.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jjohnsind said:


> Keep in mind the video was the SECOND nuc I received in exchange from the day before - the first one I got had 2 frames of bees, everything else was EMPTY (not even comb) & the 5th frame didn't even exist.


I would hazard a guess he had some overwintering problems and couldn't deliver on the nucs that were already sold. Getting caught in overselling what you have is never a win situation. What I think he should do is return some of your money as a fair settlement.


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## Chemguy (Nov 26, 2012)

Like someone else wrote, that looks more like a split than a nuc. But, it has strong potential to be thriving. I can sometimes be a "glass half full" person, and I'd probably be disappointed with a nuc like that at first, but would likely come to look at the experience as a learning opportunity. I think that you have a strong likelihood of learning and having a good colony in the near future.


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## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

Examine the bees before taking delivery--confirming the presence of queen, eggs, larvae, brood, and the condition of the nuc is well worth losing some foragers, and protects both the buyer and the seller.
As someone above mentioned, get referrals from previous customers in you bee club. Unfortunately a few folks are taking advantage of the flood of new (and unsuspecting) beekeepers to sell "nucs" which are viable splits, even weak splits, and old-comb-recycling.
If your gut is telling you something is wrong, you may be right.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Acebird said:


> As far as I am concerned it is not a nuc unless it has honey and not syrup. A nuc (my definition) is an established hive. One that should be dependant on nature not a beekeeper nursing it to life. I can't view the video, too much traffic.


That is what I would expect. I bought a 2 deep hive and a nuc from the same guy, last year. Every frame was covered with bees. The hive made honey the nuc was a 2 deep w/in 2 months. I only paid $135 for the nuc, but the box was not included.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

If you had purchased a 3 frame nuc I would say that it was light on bees...

With there not being any open brood I wouldn't consider it a nuc. 

From what I've read there doesn't seem to be any eggs either, again, disqualifying your purchase as a nuc in my opinion. 

I doubt if the nice frame of brood was laid by the queen that you have. With everything else being poor or nonexistent (honey) it's not llikely that you have a wonderful queen. Especially since you don't have any eggs /young larvae. 

I set up numerous three frame mating nucs yesterday that are nicer / stronger than what you purchased. 

Tell the guy that you will be expecting half or more of your money back. Half if the queen starts laying... 

You need a local beekeeping friend that could give you a couple of swarm cells.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Have any eggs appeared yed (if you've gone back in since)? Not to overstate the obvious, but the early choice was faster, but in the end I think it'll be in the same place as the later option would have been, and at your expense to get it there. I like learning new things, and you certainly will with this... but I think you were overcharged for what you received.


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## MikeinCarolina (Mar 9, 2014)

Sovek said:


> Or the guy could be just saying what his customers want to hear, which judging from the video, is whats going on, because by his own word, he should have seen that the hive wasnt where it it was supposed to be.
> 
> I'm working on a mission statement, policy and quality statement for my nuc business that I'm slowly but surely working on, lemme quote most of whats written.
> 
> ...


If I need any more bees again I am going to be making a trip over to see you. When were your nucs ready this past spring ?


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