# Beekeeping Business Planning - Can you make money in this business?



## kallen1320

I am a beekeeper for the past 7 years and have 50 hives. I'm looking to do this full time by purchasing 600-1000 hives and have been developing a business plan that includes revenues from pollination and honey sales. I'm assuming $150/hive for pollination and $2/lb for bulk honey sales. After i deduct planned expenses: labor (2 full time people), shipping to CA ($5K round trip), hive meds and food ($20/hive/year), and some general administrative expenses...my financial model shows a monthly loss. Any ideas or thoughts would be very helpful.


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## LSPender

Typically large bee operation have about 1 employee to every 700 to 1000 hives, you should be able to operate 1000 hives yourself and use some part time help at busy times.


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## kallen1320

Thanks for the information. How about my estimate on $20/hive/year for medicine (mites, foulbrood, nosema, trachea) and feeding weak hives with patties and sugar water? Is that a good estimate?


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## AmericasBeekeeper

As an older beekeeper told me - the only way to make a fortune in beekeeping is to start with a larger fortune. 
From experience, I would have to recommend growing by splits and swarms. Do not buy into beekeeping. You really need the practical experience to grow as fast as your apiary. My Dad "bought in" while I grew into it. You have some experience with 7 years and 50 hives, but a full time operation is another ball game.


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## honeyshack

$2.00 a pound bulk. Where will you off load it? How will you load it? Scale it and where will the cost of the barrels come from. How will you guarantee you can sell it for $2.00 a pound, especially if the market drops.
In ag, best to hope for the best and plan for the worst. Figure your costs to keep the hives and extract, then the cost of the loan and interest to buy what you need and then add about 25% to the cost and you might be in the ball park range.
As for your income, figure what you will get and then deduct 25% and you might be in the ball park. 
Wait not done yet
Then realize the weather plays a huge role in production of bees, honey and pollinating. Deduct 25-30% of projected poundage of honey production, realize you could get a bad year and loose all your bees and have to buy back in.
Then your ball park might be accurate.
In an ag producing commodity, we are at the mercy of the weather and the world market. Two things which will make or break a farmer, rancher, beekeeper. There is a reason why farmers say "next year will be better"!
Then, going from a hobbiest to a commercial keeper, not only does the financial mindset change, but so does the attitude towards beekeeping change. No longer will you be able to do every possible thing to save a hive. It will be paramount to have a cut off of what you will do to save it. Culling will be a major part of the commercial life. Everything that is done to the bees will have to be pencilled out for cost effectiveness. 
Finally, have an exit plan if things go south.


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## beeware10

If you buy into it you will not make it. grow into it with out much debt you stand a chance. frugil is a very important word in this business. If something happens and you have to replace half your hives what would that do. beekeeping is a numbers game. the best money in beekeeping is running 100-300 hives with a full time job. once you go full time your overhead increases and production will go down. again starting out with part of the outfit paid for is a huge advantage. don't buy anything that will not pay for itself. good luck


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## kallen1320

Thanks everyone for your input to my request. I operate a cattle ranch and have learned the hard way that bees are as difficult as predicitng success in your cattle.

Some estimates on costs would help me at least prepare for the worst case. I am assuming that each year you lose an average of 10-20% of your hives. I know some years can be worse and others better. 

What should i plan for annual costs for meds and food? I'm assuming $20/hive and feel like maybe tha is too high. 

Any thoughts or feedback from your experience would be fabulous.
Thanks!


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## sqkcrk

LSPender said:


> you should be able to operate 1000 hives yourself and use some part time help at busy times.


This seems somewhat ambitious to me. But, I guess the right person could do that. But it would take a huge investment right up front or a long time to build up to those numbers.

A friend of mine runs about 750 to 1,000, depending on the year. He depends on a handful of helpers, every now and then, to manage colonies. He does none of his own extracting, except skimming the tank and filling the barrels and other stuff. Just not the actual extracting. Handling of frames.

So, w/ a semi to sleep in, a skidsteer loader to handle hives and honey, a decent honeyhouse, some reliable managable help willing to work when you need them, but not full time, you can do it. Managing is the key to successful beekeeping. Management of all aspects.


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## suttonbeeman

I have run 500 hives up until a year ago when my son quit the railroad and purchased 533 hives. We hired help for about a week pulling honey in Florida as we were in a hurry. I ran 500 hives by myself with less than $2,000 hired labor a year (extracting and pulling honey), bottled all my proiduction except orange which i bottle some of and sold 
and delivered to stores and do 6 festivals a year. In addition I also have beef cattle and run a auction business selling estates farms and real estate at auction. But i do not work a 40 hour week. My son and I plan on running 1400 to 1800 next year with minimal help.....maybe 5,000 in labor for the year. If you want to make money you cant hire it done with 400 to 1000 hives....especially if you are selling in drums. Plan on work days of 10 to 14 hours at peak season....some days 20 hrs. I can do the work of 2 hired
empoyees usually. With 500 you should need very little hired labor....with 1,000 maybe one part time guy at pulling time.


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## hpm08161947

It is hard for me to speak about conditions in Utah, but for here in NC I think $20/hive for feed/meds/patties is low. I might even double that figure if I was going to CA. As far as labor goes... with only 300 hives... everything has to be done by us.... no labor hired. At the 1000 hive.. maybe some, but nothing full time.


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## Stevebeeman

Kallen,

If you have Excel, send me your email and I will send you an excell spreedsheet templet for budgets for bee business.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Money? What is that? TED


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## belliott

Ted Kretschmann said:


> Money? What is that? TED


I hear it's that green stuff that bees eat.


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## Steve10

Kallen,

I admire your desire to take your beekeeping to a larger scale. Looking at how much honey the USA imports, we all need to step up to the plate and be better honey producers. I would believe your financial model, and see how you can manipulate the numbers to meet your goals. Of course you want to limit expenses, and this forum is full of ideas on exactly how to do that. Spend this winter reading everything that pertains to the commercial side of beekeeping and apply that to your goal.

I suggest growing into your business (without any employees.) Treat your 50 hives like they are 500. Watch and document your income and expenses. See how much you can economize on your time per hive, from set-up, to inspection, to maintenance, to harvesting, and storage. Set up an increase program raising your own queens, hunt for discounts on woodenware, develop an efficient honey processing system, etc. My point is if you can "grow" a 50 hive operation successfully to 500-1000 hives, you'll have a lot less to lose than you would just "buying" into a big operation. This will also give you time to figure out what part of this business you like and what is drudgery, and what parts you can hire out to be more cost effective, and how many tons of honey you have to sell to put food on the table. Bigger isn't always better. I had a lot more money in the checkbook and a lot less headaches when I could handle my business without employees! Personally, I think a hardworking beekeeper with some marketing skills can make a decent living working alone with about 200 hives and a little bit of luck. Beats a real job any day!

I wish you much success. It can be done.


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## Nature's Spectacle

I don't have much experience with beekeeping commercially, but I do have an MBA. I'd like to introduce you to something that I learned that might really help you build much more effective models, especially when there is so much uncertainty about all of your variables: Its called Monte Carlo Simulation, and its really an effective tool at taking your educated guesses and putting them into a range of possibilities in order to make an informed decision about the future.

In short, we know that beekeeping is full of randomness. randomness in prices, weather, feed costs, medicine costs, etc.

Let me give you a rudimentary example (the $ figures are for example only):

Variables:
Bulk Prices per LB: Anywhere between $1.50 and $3 per
Hive Startup: Between $75 and $200 per hive
Death rate: Between 5% and 30%
Sugar price: Between $3 and $9 per lb
and so on.

X; What your model is trying to solve for is Profit/Loss. 

What Monte Carlo Simulation does is run 10,000 random trials (or more), where each of the variables is picked randomly within a range and the model is calculated to find X (profit). For example:
Trial 1: $1.75 per lb honey , $103.55 per hive, 20% death rate, $6/lb sugar
Trial 2: $2.75 per lb honey , $93.55 per hive, 30% death rate, $9/lb sugar
and so on to 10,000

I've done countless number of these (mostly for stock valuations) but the principles are the same for all models where the variables are unknown. I'd be more than happy to help show everyone here how it works and how it could be much more effective than just plugging in a fixed number or percentage into your models. 

There's a really easy way of doing this in Excel with a plugin download. Its called Crystal Ball (http://www.oracle.com/us/products/applications/crystalball/index.html) and its a plugin you have to pay for, but last I tried it you could download it and use it for a few months for free, more than enough time for you to play around and make your models work. There's other ways of doing it without using crystal ball, but I found it was extremely quick and painfree using it.

What this ultimately shows you is, using your educated guesses, what the probability is that you will make a profit. If you want to send me your model and the range of possible values for your variables, I'd be happy to run a simulation for you


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Nature's Spectacle, thanks for the info, and the link. When the weather is cold and I can't get outside I'm going to play with this model.


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## jean-marc

$20 for meds and feed. Hmmm, sounds like your bees are on a diet. I easily spend that on patties in the fall and spring, never mind syrup and medications.

I'm not sure where you are selling your honey, but $2.00/lb is more than the current market price. I'm sure that with time you could develop markets where you sell your honey for that price, mostly to other beekeepers who sell more honey than they produce.

Jean-Marc


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## Roland

Re-run your program with a 90 percent annual mortality from CCD for 3 years straight and see how it works out. (Don't worry, all healthy now) 

Crazy Roland


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## Ted Kretschmann

Well, Nature, You want to become a commercial beek, You can buy my operation......The you can run more than just simulations on a computer. You will find mother nature controls the computer model and her variables are more numerous than sand grains on a beach. People forget when they decide to go into the "bee business", that they are farming in a specialized way. Adaptability by the beekeeper to the whims of nature just can not be programed into a computer model. That is learned by experience! TED


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## Keith Jarrett

Ted Kretschmann said:


> People forget when they decide to go into the "bee business", that they are farming in a specialized way. Adaptability by the beekeeper to the whims of nature just can not be programed into a computer model. That is learned by experience! TED


Very well said, Ted.


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## jean-marc

Good point Ted. Experience teaches that when you recognize that the bees need feed, best to feed them straight away and not wait 2 weeks. Those are management decisions that have to be made when they needs to be made, not later. So what if you don't have the money to feed them, feed them then worry about paying later. That or plan on having dead hives in the spring or if this is a situation that arises in the spring plan on a lower honey crop. It seems that if bees go hungry it can take a couple of generations of bees for them to get over it, by then you could have missed a part of the crop. So even if the money is budgeted for feed, failure to give it at the right time cna have catastrophic consequences. Same thing can be said for so many variables. Being a little slow to pull the honey and get the varroa treament on can have a huge impact on the wintering success. Had the honey been pulled 3 weeks sooner then the bees that made the last generation going into winter would of been healthier and winter survivability would have been better. Timing is critical in this game. Just try showing up 5 or 6 days late on a pollination job and see how well that goes over.

Take care of the bees and the bees will take care of you.

Jean-Marc


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## Stevebeeman

Hey Nature's Spectacle,

How do you think a course in Six Sigma business management strategies would go over with this group?


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## beemandan

A close look at many commercial beekeeping operations using six sigma techniques would surely show areas where one could improve efficiencies.....if you could get the old timers to implement them.


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## MichaBees

I just hope you “business gurus” are able to produce, keep, care for, and overall show us the way by teaching by example, and not “book knowledge”. 

I have specialized on overseeing the building or large construction complexes, roads and bridges, but nevertheless, it does not grant me the authority to criticize a joint or a bee box construction method that may have proven to have worked for years on end. 
I prefer the knowledge this “old timers” could share, over your theoretical better management unproven techniques with bees. I hope your bees are half as good as you think you are; they would be supper bees. 
A little bit of humility would serve us well. 

Aurelio (leo) Paez
DBA Micha Honey and Bees


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## Adrian Quiney WI

The interesting thing about a group of beekeepers is the range and breadth of experience that the collection of individuals brings to the table, or in Beesource's case, the monitor. As many of us don't pick up beekeeping into our 40's by that time we have acquired a range of useful skills/knowledge that can benefit us all. People on Beesource tend to be generous in offering their experience free of charge. Each of us can offer something different. I come to the commercial part of the forum to learn, and while I have no affinity for accountancy I can see that without keeping track of expenses, income and risk a Beekeeper could find himself in the hole. 
Finances are not as interesting to me as hands-on beekeeping, but I will have to attend to them if I am to be successful. A computer model that can help calculate potential risk/reward is one more tool that may be useful in a successful operation. Does it fire my juices like Mike Palmer's overwintering nuc operation? No, but it has its place. One of the most consistently happy beekeepers on here (Ron Householder) has a degree in Business Mgmt. or accountancy, reading his posts you can see how this background aided him in his success.


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## beemandan

MichaBees said:


> I just hope you “business gurus” are able to produce, keep, care for, and overall show us the way by teaching by example, and not “book knowledge”.


There is a place in beekeeping for both book knowledge and experience, in my opinion. 



MichaBees said:


> I prefer the knowledge this “old timers” could share, over your theoretical better management unproven techniques with bees.


Exactly the closed minded attitude I was referring to. Just because you’ve done things one way forever doesn’t mean it is the best way. Unproven techniques? How does one ever know if they don’t try new ideas? This was the same attitude that the American Automobile manufacturers had in the early 1970s. And exactly the same reason that the Japanese autos took such a huge market share. The Japanese embraced the ‘new’ concepts. And what was worse, the efficiency concepts were taught to the Japanese by an American, Edward Deming, who was unable to get the American Auto Industry to listen. The Americans finally have as well.



MichaBees said:


> A little bit of humility would serve us well.


 This has nothing to do with humility. I worked for a business that embraced six sigma for a number of years and saw how many ‘old timers’ resisted new approaches. I have no reason to believe that beekeepers are any different. At age 60 I consider myself an 'old timer' ....with an open mind.
Sorry to have hit such a sensitive spot.


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## Stevebeeman

Beemandan,
I think you articulated the situation very well.
I am not sure where all the hostility comes from.
I would hope that we could have a dialog to a very important question that affects us all. It is important to consider various points of view without summarily dismissing them because they are different from the way thing were done in the past .
There is a certain amount of synthesis when you combine knowledge, experience, with intelligentsia, collecting this information and then combining it with new ideas to create a new insight, more efficient ways of doing something. 
What good is knowledge if you do not have the ability to piece together the information and solve a problem or create new ideas, a better way(s)?
What good is intelligentsia if you do not have the knowledge, experience, or facts? 
I keep hearing how hard it is to make money in this business, well if you keep doing the same thing over and over and over…. isn’t that a sign of insanity?
Let’s all (me included) try to be a little more constructive and open minded to different ideas and do a little business planning.


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## Keith Jarrett

I find it funny how some think that there is only a few that ever heard of or use P/E ratio or CAP RATE pro forma's ect ect ect.... 

It seem as though some that go out of thier way to use such langue are the SAME one that ask 101 questions on this form. 

P.S. nice post Leo.


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## Roland

The problems that arise with trying to make real life fit a computer model often are a result of improper quantizing intangibles. The laws of physics, chemistry, and biology, and accouunting do not change. It is the hard to measure inputs, that may inter react synergistically, good or bad(think of the two miticides) that make find a direct cause and effect difficult. Go ahead and work on computer models, but admit it, most of beekeeping is done "flying blind". You control what you can; keep them healthy and fed, a roof over their head, with plenty of room, some good genes; after that, the matrix of possiblities is hard to predict, just too many variables.

Crazy Roland


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## jim lyon

Didnt follow all of that quantizing and synergistic stuff but the last sentence sure made a lot of sense. :thumbsup:


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## beeware10

the bee business involves understanding bee behavior, dealing with the weather, proper timing, hard work, etc. anyone that believes a computer model is the answer is destined to to fail from the start.


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## Keith Jarrett

Roland said:


> most of beekeeping is done "flying blind".


aH ha THAT'S IT.


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## Stevebeeman

BeeWare10

I agree with you that not everyone will benefit by using computer models for budgeting, trying to determine their cash flow requirements, or for tax planning. It requires accumulating historical date and estimates, and which some information you may not have available. There is an old saying in programing, Garbage in, Garbage out.
Computer weather models that track and forecast weather patterns, I would imagine must be very hard to program. 
If you were successful without using any business planning models, I would continue doing what works for you.


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## New Ky Beekeeper

suttonbeeman said:


> In addition I also have beef cattle and run a auction business selling estates farms and real estate at auction. But i do not work a 40 hour week. My son and I plan on running 1400 to 1800 next year with minimal help.....maybe 5,000 in labor for the year.


Please understand before you read the quote above. I own two farms in Central Kentucky and work as a systems engineer. I know people like SuttonBeeMan. They live to work and enjoy their job(s). So when they work they take 1.5 steps when normal people take just 1. If you love what you do, you can do what he and his son are doing. But if your personal interest is something else, don't even think about it. I love farms, cattle and now bees. So, when I retire from my day job (5 years), I will progress right in to being a farmer. However, not to the extent of SuttonBeeMan....... But maybe 100 hives....


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## Keith Jarrett

Stevebeeman said:


> I would continue doing what works for you.


There we have it.

Let me through out a few simple things that works for me in this business.

We run a roi (return on investment) every year, we also run, net worth gain/loss yearly, and a few risk/gain ratio's but other than that which is fairly simple, oh we also take 25% of the profit and put it into something other than beekeeping.

Lastly a (321) make 3.... save 2....spend 1


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## irwin harlton

How are you valuating your operation, are you using current market prices for colonies or what it actually costs you to build your operation


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## honeyshack

Computer models work well. However, I have found that a budget done in pencil and have a really good eraser handy is the best. Nothing is set in stone. Decreasing spending never really happens in a computer model. Savings in spending occur in the field where pennies can be cut here and there.

The computer model is really only good for one thing. And that is, once all data is entered, it shows where you are hemoraging in $'s. An example would be...it costs x amount of $ to treat a hive yearly. Not talking nutrtion here...but there in the data it shows a spike in $ for treatments. Searching the records, you find hive #'s or yard #'s which have cost more to treat than the rest due to illness. Now if you track your spending, a good beekeeper will also tracks yields. And if there are many yards, a beekeeper might track by yard. A good beekeeper would also track deaths. So if yard 1 is low yielding and yard 1 cost more to treat and yard 1 had a higher spring death rate, a pattern is seen where maybe culling or combining would have been a more cost effective measure instead of treating over and above what the other yards got.


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## Keith Jarrett

irwin harlton said:


> what it actually costs you to build your operation


there you go, Irwin


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## New Ky Beekeeper

Keith Jarrett said:


> Lastly a (321) make 3.... save 2....spend 1


I like that.....


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## beemandan

The six sigma techniques that were mentioned earlier aren't computer models. They are more in line with time and motion studies, only with greater precision. In large scale beekeeping any number of tasks are repetitive. Six sigma or even more conventional time and motion techniques can examine those tasks and find inefficiencies or potentially more efficient methods to achieve the same results. My earlier point was that some commercial beekeeping operations would surely benefit from this. 
My earlier experience with these studies is the old 'this is the way we've always done it'. And yet there is solid proof (no 'theoretical better management unproven techniques') over the past 100 years that these 'new comcepts' often result in dramatic improvements in productivity.


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## Stevebeeman

Careful Beemandan, they will burn you at the stake for suggesting such Copernican ideas.


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## beemandan

Stevebeeman said:


> Careful Beemandan, they will burn you at the stake


It won’t be the first time I’ve had my feet held to the fire, Steve.
I still cannot understand why anyone would object to a computer simulation. No responsible person would suggest that it is a substitute for having experienced eyes in a hive. It is simply another tool in the experienced beekeepers’ toolbox. 
Randy Oliver is a proponent of computer simulations. He did a piece in a recent ABJ where he performed a variety of varroa simulations. Would I treat, not treat, or not test based on those simulations? Of course not. But, if you look at them they can assemble a good bit of complex information into something meaningful.
Heaven knows they did a boatload of computer simulations before they first sent a human into space….at least we (the US) did. And I’m betting that Alan Shepard was glad they did. But all of those simulations couldn’t replace the real world test of their data. I know that beekeeping isn’t rocket science….but it is science.


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## hpm08161947

Stevebeeman said:


> Careful Beemandan, they will burn you at the stake for suggesting such Copernican ideas.


Heh heh...  us old timers are not that bad .... are we? Modeling has it's place.


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## Roland

Mr. Lyon, I was wrong, had the wrong hat on when I posted. Let me try again:

The difficulty arises when one tries to measure the gain form something like feeding pollen supplement. OK, so you know the cost of the supplement, but how do you measure what you gained? The gain is the intangible, something you can not touch. Do you feed half your hives supplement, and then compare? But that data would only be valid for the conditions of that year. The next year may be entirely different. Maybe the effect of opening the hives(or some other action) to add the supplement had some effect that was not expected, and would cause a person to misjudge the effect of the supplement.
For example, what if small hive beetle populations exploded because of the supplement, and those hives did not fare as well as the hive not fed a supplement.

I am only using supplement as an example, please do not hang me....

Randy Oliver's model was mentioned. I believe he missed a very important aspect , and it may illustrate my point. I believe he failed to take into account inbreeding of mites when the mite levels are very low, and conversely the hybrid effect when an outside mite is introduced, and two non related mites share genetic material in the same cell, giving vitality to each of their offspring. This an example of where two non related mites have more of an impact than 2 related mites. How does the model handle that?

Crazy Roland


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## beemandan

Roland said:


> This an example of where two non related mites have more of an impact than 2 related mites. How does the model handle that?


I believe that even Randy O would acknowledge that his models didn't take into account every possible permutation.
The way it should work is that you determine which model most closely fits your situation. Then you include your experience i.e. late season mites are more virulent (hybrid vigor?).....or whatever. And you choose your course of action. It may be that you don't do anything different than you already do today but it is possible that you might gain some new insights that allow you to improve what you do. 
It ain't likely to cause you any harm.


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## Stevebeeman

I'm tell'n ya beemandan, Models are the devils work, I smell smoke, and it's not from a little bee smoker, do your feet feel warm.

To All:

I started to send some Revenue and Expense ratios analyst (at the risk of being burned at the stake with beemandan) of a friend's hive operation to those that requested the budget templet, I got side tract and do not remember who did or did not receive one. If you want the information please send me a PM. Now remember these numbers will change depending on the weather or the number of mites you have or the moon phase.


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## beemandan

Stevebeeman said:


> do your feet feel warm.


Wellllll, I've got to admit that they do itch...but I'm thinkin' that's a result of that fireant hill I stood on for a few minutes yesterday. Now yesterday thanks to those ants....these ol' dogs were cookin'!
I reckon I'd better leave it alone now, before I get excommunicated from beesource.


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## Ted Kretschmann

Something to think about here for all those people that get into the bee business in a significant way. Now that you are in the bee business, and you have done your time in it-twenty to forty years....Kept your bees alive the best way you could. Contributed to the industry time and knowledge learned....There becomes a time to get out....Most beekeepers do not realize when it arrives.Thus someone finds them dead in the honeyhouse over a honey drum...Then the vultures swoop in and try to buy everything on the cheap......So everyone that is in the bee business should have a business plan to "retire" out. It takes years to get up to any size in this business. And it does take awhile to get out of the business if you want a decent price for your holdings. I figure it will take ten years for me to retire out completely. TED


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## beeware10

ted what you are saying is right and makes a lot of common sense. you know beekeepers are kind of different and some enjoy the business so much they want to keep going until they can't anymore. It is not a normal industry. I think you know what i"m trying to say.
most beekeepers just keep going because next year will be the big one. still waiting myself.


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## Roland

C'mon Ted, that's what children are for, some one to leave all your screw ups to.

Roland Diehnelt, 5th generation ,
Christian F. Diehnelt, 6th gen, and recipient of my mistakes.

Some of us are not smart enough to call it a day.


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## Ozone

deleted


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## peacekeeperapiaries

I would not "buy" into the bee business on a large scale, 600-1000 hives and the equipment to support those numbers is going to be a hefty sum to invest and quite frankly you would have better odds taking that sum to Vegas and bet it all on "black".

I am blessed with a full time job, when we decided to get back into the bee business I had one goal "build it debt free". We started with 22 nucs and caught some swarms. I allotted a portion of my "personal paycheck' to support the business the first year with the plan to reduce that amount as the business grew. 2nd year we hit some of those unforeseen stumbling blocks but the business did produce some income and we continued to grow as well as reduce my personal contribution. Our business is now at 300 hives via splits and a few swarms, this year I did not contribute any personal money to the business, I has supported itself and its growth. We own all of our equipment outright, except the new/used f350 flatbed I just purchased, with the business making that payment also. We are poised to go into 2012 and hopefully the business will support the growth to between 800-1000 hives. I can make that many from 300, but the business is going to pay for or its not gonna happen, we will only grow as big as the business will support.

I considered a business or farm loan when we started, but I'm glad we built it debt free. Slower for sure, but very rewarding to end a year with money in the bank to continue the process and growth next year.....and nobody is holding a note over my head.


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## StevenG

The advantage to growing by doing is that you learn as you go. Mistakes, while costly, are cheaper when you're small, than when you get bigger. And mistakes made in a 100 hive operation are easier to correct than in a 1,000 hive operation, I should think.
Regards,
Steven


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## Ted Kretschmann

Well I used to think you could make money in this business. I may have to do like Steven is doing--eat pidgeons for dinner. Thus save money to reinvest in the bee business:lookout: TED ( In the bee business, You can do well if you grow and learn as you go)


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## beeware10

one of the better posts is #52 by pca. written by someone who has been there and done that. he stands a better chance of surviving than most beekeepers starting out. Its a tough business and debt will put you under in a heartbeat in a bad yr.


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## suttonbeeman

Hey Ted

maybe sue isnt paying you enough for your honey and if you had all those dollars that belong to you that Sue has retained for operating capitol you could have a larger 
operation! Just kidding ya!! couldnt resist the temptation!! Rick


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## Ted Kretschmann

Hey, Rick, that operating money is off set by the big fat Byrd admendment check I will get from Sue, from monies collected by the Federal Government and petitioned by Sue and distributed to the membership. Do not want a larger operation. After forty years of beekeeping, I would like to start the "retirement" process over the next ten years. Sorry Rick, had to throw the stone back at you. TED


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## WLC

I think that some of you have forgotten the most important detail.


kallen:

Set up an LLC for your apiary operations. I would do that now, and transfer everything beekeeping into it before putting anything new into the operation. The tax benefits are too important to ignore. Oh, and keep excellent records.

I've also noticed that you've put pollination and honey production as your main operations.

I think that you've left out the production of new bees.

Nuc sales should be an important part of your operations. It has been mentioned here on Beesource as a good way for a new operation to start. They don't have to be 'just nucs'. They could also be made up as complete pollinator pallets, depending.


You have to be careful about 'throwing money' at a new business in the form of new equipment/assets without having a reasonable chance of showing a profit. Pick the 'low-hanging fruit' first.

You should have very little trouble selling nucs on Beesource.


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## jim lyon

WLC said:


> I've also noticed that you've put pollination and honey production as your main operations.
> 
> I think that you've left out the production of new bees.
> 
> Nuc sales should be an important part of your operations. It has been mentioned here on Beesource as a good way for a new operation to start.


The OP defined what he wanted to do, which was pollinate and raise honey. My advice to newcomers is always to do what your area allows you to do, some areas have great spring build up conditions which are conducive to bee and queen production but not much honey potential, other locations are better for honey but difficult to raise the bees needed. Almond pollination can cut into honey production somewhat but not necessarily a lot, any pollination done later in the season will cut into honey production dramatically if not eliminate it altogether. Bee and nuc sales and honey production, can be just as mutually exclusive. If you have access to locations where you might reasonably expect to raise 80 + pounds per hive and a good extracting set up then it dosent make any sense to sell any bees as there isnt much increase in input costs to go from 700 to 800 hives, don't sell your honey crop out in the spring for a quick buck.


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## WLC

I think that investing in a bigger honey extraction operation from the get-go is too risky for a new business. Honey flows are far too variable. Dropping $10k+ into new equipment that can sit unused well below capacity is poor planning. It looks very, very bad on the books.

However, you can always buy HFCS to feed bees if the flow is poor. You'll know your costs and profit potential up front.

If the honey flow does turn out to be good, you could always use all of that extra honey to make more bees/splits. Besides, honey is better for the bees than HFCS. 

Or, bring the surplus honey supers to a local honey extraction operation. It's better for both of you anyway. You get cash without the up front expense, and the extractor gets cash to pay for their operation. You both win.

You don't have to be able to do all of the apiary operations that are possible in year 1. Focus on the operations that are most likely to show you an immediate profit. That's the ticket.


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## jim lyon

WLC: Let me re-phrase. I didnt mean to imply that you need a really good expensive extracting set up to make money producing honey. You just need the facilities to be able to do it. Going back a few years our family ran 5,000 hives for years with electric hand uncapping knives and 2 50 frame extractors. It can certainly be done inexpensively if needed and upgraded in the future as finances permit.


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## WLC

I agree. kallen already has 50 hives, and probably some extracting/bottling assets. There's no reason not to continue using that equipment to capacity.

I'm referring to putting cash into a business too quickly so that it can take years before the costs of new assets are paid for by the operation.

I've seen too many good people go down that road, and suffer the consequences.

I just think that kallen would do better by investing in assets, like new nucs, that can produce a profit within a year.

Then kallen can start projecting how that can pay for new operations.

A rancher probably has alot of the assets needed anyway, but the real test is how productive and how profitable adding a larger apiary operation to an existing business can be.

The advice to build in a slow, and profitable, manner is something that I agree with.


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## Daniel Y

I am a new guy and do not even own bees. But I do a lot of things and make money at it. I often scratch my head when looking through this sight.
Two things I see as very common.
1. most beekeepers comment at how hard it is to make money with bees.
2. that there is not anything concerning bees that does not have a demand for it. 

I make money at things that have a nearly non existent demand. Making hand crafted writing pens for example. Breeding tropical fish as another. Keeping chickens in my back yard.

What I am not seeing clearly is just what are people commonly doing that in an nut shell caused keeping bees more expensive than selling them.

I am starting to think that recognizing when to cut your losses is the most commonly missed skill.

Starting right from the get go. Wooden ware can be used to keep bees or sold. The single best price I have seen on a hive so far is $79.70 which includes. Bottom Board, 2 hive bodies, 1 med super, inner cover, outer cover, and entrance reducer. No queen exclude so add another $8 or so. My best guess says that you probably want two to three supers per hive so you can really look at a productive hive costing closer to $100 each. You can pay now or pay later but if you have productive hives that is going to be a good cost per as far as I can tell. I know for a fact I can make them for about $100 cheaper than that but not in a way that is reliable on a business type scale.

That brings us to my next observation. You cannot use a small scale effort to model a large operation. I have one hive so far (no bees) and am working on my second. The first cost me about $50 with some materials left over. The second so far has not cost me a dime. The first is a Top Bar and the second is a Longstroth. I found a huge book shelf made from very fine 1X material that was being thrown away. I broke it down (about 2 hours labor) and am going to be able to make a hive that includes. 2 bodies. 3 med supers (chose med right off the bat). Bottom Board, Inner cover outer cover, entrance reducer and probably a stand if I choose to make one. I have a bunch of 2X material laying around that I will make frames from. At $20 an hour for my labor I figure this hive will cost me about $120. making them in bulk will cut labor and increase material costs. So either way a hive is going to cost around that $100 mark.

On a large scale this shows to some degree I am more cost effective buying my wooden ware. I think most large scale folks figured that one out one way or another.

I think many folks here are confusing Modeling with Management. Modeling shows weather a given plan is profitable or not or lets you set your overall goals. Management is the skill and knowledge needed to steer yourself toward the goals. You can know that a vacation to Hawaii is the optimal destination for you. But without a job, budgeting, planning and even buying tickets. You are not going to get very far. Same with bees. if you make the wrong decisions at the wrong time you will loose.

How the heck can you loose at something that everything they do is sellable? Seriously. I know it happens and that most of you even find it hard to make it pay. But How?

Well basically it comes down to this. you put in more money than you got out. So what causes that? I see a few suspects that stand out to me.

Purchased equipment. Now even I think this is a wise choice but that does not mean it does not make the list of costs paid into your bees. at some point you bought that equipment and I am going to tag each hive at a cost of $100.

Extra Frame costs. Such as foundation, wire, clips, eyelets, blah blah blah. Common folks do bees really need this much help making comb? Looks to this newb like someone pulled a fast one and people are knocking each other over to get to the feast. Yes I understand that bees not producing comb are making more honey. Really? You mean all those nurser bees that are hanging around the hive humming there swarming song are helping the honey production? Not only that but you are giving up one of the money makers right here alone. You don't sell wax when you don't make your bees produce any. This issue is so big for me it makes me wonder just how hard are you trying to make money at your bees. Wax at a casual glance is worth $24 a lb. make other products from it and it becomes worth as much as $60 to $80 an ounce. But for heavens sake boost the production of all that $2 a lb (if you are lucky) Honey. You saved what. all of two or three days in honey production? Unless you are harvesting your own wax and making your own foundation. this is put yourself out of business decisions one.

Next is replacing bees, even just requeening every spring. say what??? Do any of you realize what a queen costs? Basically you have to buy all your hives all over again every year. No wonder you can't make any money. Again another fast one that the main stream just flocks to. and for me this one makes me wonder just what equipment all you bee geniuses are really working with. Not insulting there more of a humorous comment. I know that practices have become what they have for a reason. But come on. If you can't see this one. well I don't really know what to say. In short. You need new queens and nobody could possible afford to buy them on an ongoing basis and expect to be able to make money. Make them yourself. In fact make them yourself and then some, sell the extras to the other 99%.

My final but far from last observation. Feed a Hive. Huh? are you in this for pets or to make money? If a hive cannot survive, hold it's own and make a profit. Why do you want to keep it? Are you so in love with your bees you are willing to pay again and again year after year to keep them? If your hives need feeding, feed them insecticide and start with some nucs you produced from your strong hives and all those queens you are rearing. So what about those times that mother nature is just in a foul mood and bees must be fed. even the best hives. Feeding is a loss no matter what the reason. even if you take $2 a lb honey and feed $0.50 a lb sugar water. It is a loss, but that is another issue and I said this is my final one. Cut your losses, reduce your hives, use this as an opportunity to cull. Use it as an opportunity to try or test your hives. leave them to get through and you will end up with only the most suited to your area. Let the others die and then refill the hives from your proven stock. 10 hives surviving out of 100 can then be made into 100 hives that will survive next time. Costly? yes it is. But not as costly as paying to loose. 

if you take the above as a whole. it cost you nothing to loose bees that cost you nothing. You where not going to get anything anyway. It will cost you nothing to replace those bees with bees that cost you nothing. You just have to be able to manage it correctly. This year is a no gainer. how can you be ready for next year will all hives full and ready to go. this year is about strong nucleus for those hives. Don't pour money into a loosing year. focus on winning the next.

So do you just let all those bees that don't have a prayer of producing enough this year die?
Nope you keep your eye focused on your goal with the recognition that everything about bees is gold. you package them give em a queen and sell em. you then melt down all the wax and sell that. You spend that year making wooden ware and selling that. You are going to be in the shop making nuc boxes anyway.

I am certain you all can shoot holes in my thinking. But to me there is an angle in all this. Produce what can be produced any given year. If that is honey so be it. if it is bees than produce bees, if it is wax than make wax, if it is wooden ware than make wooden ware. How can you not make money when there is money to be made in every direction?

Anyone want some hives made while I am in the shop?


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## WLC

Daniel:

You can't sell honey if the nectar flow fails. Price out some of the equipment needed for a fully equiped honeyhouse to get an idea of how large of a startup/upgrade cost that can be.

Of course, dead bees aren't good for anything. It happens too often.

And, you can't sell sick bees either.

So, there are plenty of ways to fail.

Costs are the only thing that seem to be going up.


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## JohnK and Sheri

Daniel, posts like this make me remember why we started the commercial board in the first place.....which was basically to lower the number of posts commercial beekeepers have to wade through from people that have no clue about commercial beekeeping.  "not an insult, said with humor". 
In general your concepts are true, ie don't spend unnecessarily and make money where you can. Another good piece of advice would be to let those that know of which they speak give the more specific advice. 
Every commercial beekeeper here has seen dozens of wanna-beekeepers fail because they thought they knew better than those that did it successfully for a living. Your observation that "bees are hard to make money from, but all products are in high demand" should be the "Duh" moment. If something is easy everyone would do it successfully and there would be little money to be had. Like any aspect of agriculture, there are so many variables that can effect your bottom line it can make your head spin. Dealing with the variables as they pop up, along with good financial management of assets is what determines the bottom line. 



Daniel Y said:


> You cannot use a small scale effort to model a large operation. ......... a hive is going to cost around that $100 mark.


Large scale beekeepers spend much less than this on the woodenware, with volume discounts, buying used equipment, and or making it themselves.



Daniel Y said:


> Unless you are harvesting your own wax and making your own foundation. this is put yourself out of business decisions one.


Um, if we could sell beeswax for $24 a pound I think we would all be _buying_ it for the $2.25 going rate, and reselling it, not trying to produce extra.



Daniel Y said:


> Next is replacing bees, even just requeening every spring. say what??? Do any of you realize what a queen costs? Basically you have to buy all your hives all over again every year. No wonder you can't make any money.


Most commercial beekeepers don't buy replacement bees, most have worked out replacing losses with their own colonies. Many purchase queens or cells from specialist who supply the industry. Queen production is a very temperature sensitive activity and most northern beekeepers are too busy with honey production to raise hundreds of queens. Still, some do, not only for cost savings but for reliability of supply. Whether requeening every year or not is cost effective is open to debate and another thread. 
That said, there are a few beekeepers out there that replace every bee in their operation annually, saving the costs of winter feed, preparations and meds. 
Which brings us to feed.
There is a reason 99% of beekeepers feed their colonies. If you are managing for honey production, feed costs $.20 - $.40, honey costs $1.75. Every place in this country has a time of dearth, where bees are dependent on stores to survive. A location might be a great honey production location with a harsh winter taking 100# surplus to survive. You can do the math. 
Solely "following the bloom" for pollination income is an option some take, with it's own set of expenses and headaches. The majority of northern commercial beeks in this country take their bees to almonds to help with winter maintenance, spring buildup and those pollination fees. Many southern commercial beekeepers take their colonies north ispring or summer for honey production.

Believe it or not, most beekeepers and all the successful ones, know how to use a calculator and their brains, but perhaps the most important trait to determine success is the willingness to learn from others' mistakes and not trying to reinvent the wheel. Innovation is great, and there are many roads to beekeeping success, but tread carefully as usually someone has gone a particular route and knows what pitfalls to expect. I would suggest if you really want to make money you should try listening to those that have been doing it for decades, taking their real life experiences and molding them to fit your individual circumstances..
They say "ignorance is bliss" but it is usually a short lived bliss. 

Sheri
[/QUOTE]


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## WLC

kallen,

This thread should give you an idea of what I mean:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?261052-Bees-for-sale&p=715173#post715173

That's in October out of 750 total.

And, the best part, you don't have to feed them over winter. (Unless, of course, you're the one who bought 500 of em.)


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## honeyshack

Daniel,
replacing queens is necessary in this day and age. A queen's life span is not what it use to be. The younger the queen the easier time the hive has to keep ahead of a nasty pest like varroa.
If a queen fails at the wrong time of the season this can really hurt honey production and bee production going into the flow and going into winter. The queen is an asset which must be maintained to make best use of a hive for production.
Yes we realize the cost of the queen---we do pay the bills. 20-28 a queen versus a healthy hive....do the math

Dead bees or bees which do not produce enough healthy bees do not make money.

Not really understanding your comb assesment. However, honey production does go up when they have less comb to build. They consume alot of honey to build comb. As well, comb rotation is a good thing for hives...healthy bees

Harvesting own wax...we all do it. Some sell it to wax renderers, some sell it to other companies or beekeepers. Some like Sheri and myself, add value and make candles to sell.

Feeding hives...Sheri basically said it all where the finances are. I would liek to add, that northern beekeepers have a hard time wintering on honey due to the cold winters and canola honey. So feeding is more of a viable option. Again...dead bees do not make money.

Culling is widely used in a commercial operation. Who wants to let a dud hive go into honey production...costs money to try and get it there. Who wants to winter a dud hive. The cost to treat and feed far outweigh the chance of survival for winter...so losses get cut early on. Wintering weak hives cost because of the feed, treat and because they die...we know this so we cull in the late summer and early fall to ensure only the best go into winter

Glad to see you think outside the box. However, get some bees, work for a commercial producer..and learn...then come back to the bull pen and make your comments with some knowledge behind you. When you get that experience, you will realize the book knowledge has it's place...I'm thinking the firebox is a good place to start....unless it is about disease management


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## jim lyon

My policy is not to get into debates with folks with virtually no experience particularly when they are trying to give "advice" to folks with commercial experience. It's an exercise in almost laughable futility. Some of the brightest people I know are commercial beekeepers the majority of them don't bother with forums like this. Go get a job with one for a few years then come back on here and I will listen to you.


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## MichaBees

Jim Lyon;
:thumbsup:


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## Daniel Y

Jim, I am not giving advice, I am also not debating. As I said I have no experience. It is just amazing to me that everything about bees is marketable and yet obviously those with experience find it hard to make a profit. Over the last few weeks I have read a lot on these forums with that being one of the questions in the back of my head. As I read more the issues I listed above are just some of the ones that stuck out at me. Sort of a "well here you are poring money in, and here you are poring money in" sort of observation. I don't claim that any of it is avoidable. Really have no real understanding of what is good for the bees and what is not. But I do recognize spending when I see it mentioned. More amazed there can be such a struggle to make a profit than anything. Not saying it isn't true. I'm pretty sure where there is money there are plenty of hands out to relieve you of it as well. It generally works that way anyway.


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## jim lyon

What commercial beekeepers on here have claimed that it is hard to make a living? With almond rentals at around $150, honey prices at nearly $2.00 and queens selling for $20 + (yes commercials also sell bees) these are the best of times.


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## JohnK and Sheri

One might get the impression it is hard to make a living from some of the questions asked, but that is what forums are for, right? There is a fairly steep learning curve for making money with bees, but Jim is right, most of the commercial beekeepers on this forum have been here for many years. If we weren't making money we would have gone on to some form of self torture easier on the back, lol. 

You might not get rich keeping bees but it has been feeding our family and hundreds others for decades. It might seem like we have big inputs and that would be true. It is agriculture and we have high maintenance costs and big capital expenditures. We don't need silos, tractors or huge tracts of land but do need trucks, forklifts, and extracting equipment, not to mention the mountains of wooden ware. Some years the syrup bills make me think John is making Coca Cola, not feeding bees. Sometimes it seems we spend more money in fuel a year than a family of four might in their lifetime. Some money absolutely just needs to be spent.
As in agriculture, everyone will have an unforeseen setback at some time. The weather might get too cold too early, or stay too cold too long in the spring. A bee yard might get flooded. A check might bounce. Mites win the annual battle. Queens might not be available when we need them. The list goes on. All of that has happened to us in the past. Dealing with the problems is business as usual and part of the equation. There are many variations in the way certain individuals handle the many variables but it all comes down to sound financial management of time, labor and assets, as in any business. 
Any good business plan will estimate income on the low side and expenses on the high side to account for the unaccountable. You need a cushion to fall back on when disaster hits, and it will, in some form or another, large or small. If you can't handle it, well, again, find another form of torture, lol.

We like to complain and poke fun at ourselves (and each other). Comments like "To make a small fortune, start with a large one" is a good example of this. 
Complaining about spending money shouldn't be interpreted that we aren't making any. After all, you can't spend it for very long if you weren't making it.

Sheri


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## sqkcrk

jim lyon said:


> What commercial beekeepers on here have claimed that it is hard to make a living? With almond rentals at around $150, honey prices at nearly $2.00 and queens selling for $20 + (yes commercials also sell bees) these are the best of times.



SHHHH!! Jim. Don't let folks know or everyone will be jumping in again. Remember when Honey took it's last big jump? Lots of new beekeepers jumped in.


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## hpm08161947

Daniel Y said:


> .
> 
> My final but far from last observation. Feed a Hive. Huh? are you in this for pets or to make money? If a hive cannot survive, hold it's own and make a profit. Why do you want to keep it? Are you so in love with your bees you are willing to pay again and again year after year to keep them? If your hives need feeding, feed them insecticide and start with some nucs you produced from your strong hives and all those queens you are rearing.


Daniel - think about this.

Around here a hive that makes it through the winter earns $60 for a month in the blueberries, Then goes on to earn another $60 in either squash or watermelons. Plus the hive will surely make 40 lbs of honey which is easily sold for bulk at $2 pound, so add $80. And lets not forget at least one split... worth at least $75. So add all this up you can see the hive is worth at least $275 - if you keep it alive.... and this is a conservative estimate. So investing $20-$45 for feed, sub, and meds is a prudent investment.

Don't worry.... you will get better... when you get some bees in that hive.


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## sqkcrk

Daniel Y said:


> It is just amazing to me that everything about bees is marketable and yet obviously those with experience find it hard to make a profit.


Of course it's hard. If it weren't you and all sorts would be doing it. Just because it is hard to make a profit doesn't mean it can't or isn't done, it's just alot of work. That's one thing I'm personally regretful of sometimes. Not being willing to work as hard as those I see as successful commercial beekeepers. You gotta work as hard as your bees.

Another thing is that if you are going into beekeeping as a business, learn how to run a business. That's something I also regret not knowing enuf about. But, the couple of times I have taken classes in small business mostly what I learned was that there is alot I don't know about Business and I don't have a great desire to learn it.

But, bills are getting paid. Debt is pretty low. Just some credit card debt. So, I'm doing okay now, at this time. W/ half a crop of honey this year, the next 12 months will be interesting. Maybe I'll have to go looking for work or make cutbacks in frills like Cable TV and Internet Access.

I have no idea what else I might rather be doing than what I am.


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## jim lyon

hpm08161947 said:


> Don't worry.... you will get better... when you get some bees in that hive.


LOL I missed that. He has a hive.....just no bees yet. :lpf: Sorry I told myself I was done with this thread but you just cant make this stuff up.


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## WLC

Well, maybe you should let the OP (kallen) know which is the 'easiest' way to make money in beekeeping?

The OP already has a ranch. So, I'm not sure if running an apiary and a ranch are likely to cause conflicts.

I can see where a drought will impact a honey production business and a ranch simultaneously. I can also see how the OP might have to be two places at the same time. Cattle and bees just won't wait sometimes.

I've heard here on Beesource that selling nucs was the easiest way to start up a new business. Did I hear wrong?


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## beeware10

wlc where do the nucs come from. they don't happen unless you'r already in business. expanding and selling at the same time does not happen.


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## Daniel Y

Well this thread definitely took a turn in it's claims at about page 8. 7 pages of telling the OP how unadvised it is to expect to make money at bees. Then a page of offended people over a person posting about how surprising it is that could be true. One way or the other there is some BS spread here. I no longer really care which is which. Actually I have many other ways to find the truth. You all enjoy your offense.


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## WLC

Well the OP is in Utah, and already has 50 hives (7 years experience) and a ranch. So, the potential is already there.

I think that the OP can reach California overnight. So, the location isn't bad.

I've referred to the ND beekeeper selling hives on a pallet, at 165$ each in October, right here on Beesource.

I think that focusing on one beekeeping operation at a time is doable.

Get everything going by Spring, sell everything off by fall. It looks possible.

The OP's issue was that he couldn't see getting a pollination and honey production operation off the ground profitably. Maybe a different operation would be more suitable, without too much travelling and lifting.

Do you think a rancher already has a forklift? He probably knows the local flows and the terrain.

You need to know your strengths to come up with a good business plan.


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## StevenG

Daniel Y said:


> Well this thread definitely took a turn in it's claims at about page 8. 7 pages of telling the OP how unadvised it is to expect to make money at bees. Then a page of offended people over a person posting about how surprising it is that could be true. One way or the other there is some BS spread here. I no longer really care which is which. Actually I have many other ways to find the truth. You all enjoy your offense.


sigh, another newbie telling the pros what they're doing wrong. Maybe when he gets some bees, he'll find that truth he's searching for. And by the way, I have some wax I'll let go at the bargain basement price of $18 a pound. Any takers?
Regards,
Steven


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## sqkcrk

Daniel,
There's only one way to know the truth. Do the work. Get some bees. And I don't mean 2 hives. Get some bees. Say 500 or so. Keep them alive for two years and you'll just be getting started.

When you start something by saying "I don't own any bees yet but,...". What is there for you to base any question or comment on?


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## beeG

This is an interesting thread.
I am very interested in Daniels question/statement about feeding. 
My first year. I fed and fed this hive which is now two hives. I do not mind feeding my critters but this feeding syrup to these bees is just something I am having a hard time grasping. It cost more to feed my bees 2.50 a day then it does feeding my large dog. And I only have two small hives. I have read there was a time bees were not fed, and since mites etc etc and other issues feeding is necessary. Don’t get me wrong I know why they are fed, just not why it is so acceptable and not considered a real issue. I watched the Palmer video with much excitement. Again until I came to the feeding. I got a bit lost there just wondering how he feeds 700 hives. My bees may have wooden legs or something, by the way they suck up sugar syrup. So, I cannot imagine feeding 20 or more hives expensive sugar. God forbid those that have thousands of hives. I just want to know what they do ? The man power alone to feed hundreds of hives adds up ,along with sugar or syrup prices. 20 to 40 cents per hour wages were not factored into that number. I am sure some use honey maybe? but then again honey cost more than sugar so that in itself is a loss. I can see Daniels point from a newbees vantage point. It is what scares me the most about the bees this feeding situation. The rest of it is a blast. I am not scared to do the actual feeding ,just scared of the time and expense it would take to feed a healthy number of hives. Not to mention how it also attracts pest and such.


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## sqkcrk

beeG said:


> I am not scared to do the actual feeding ,just scared of the time and expense it would take to feed a healthy number of hives. Not to mention how it also attracts pest and such.


beeG,
There is too much feeding going on by those who don't need to. Knowing when it is necassary is beekeeping. Knowing when it isn't is beekeeping.

Manage your two hives properly and you won't have to feed. Commercial Beekeepers run their hives to make a living so we do what we can to take as much honey as we can w/out killing the bees and then keep them alive w/ nonHoney sources of food. But you don't NEED to.


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## Roland

On paper, beekeeping looks like a fast way to make a buck. Rough numbers, if wood, wax and bees costs about 175 dollars, makes 100 lbs of honey at 1.75, pays for it's self the first year, Right?

We ain't in Kansas anymore. WAY more things to go wrong with mites, CCD, failed honey crops. 
Our records from the 40's showed 150-200 lbs averages, never less than 150 lbs.

Crazy Roland


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## honeyshack

WLC,
Ranching and beekeeping can be done together. It just takes some planning and finnese. Does a rancher have a forklift...most i know do not. But they do have loader tractors for feeding cows and doing most other things.


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## JohnK and Sheri

BeeG, feeding bees has little to do with mites. It comes down to the simple fact that honey is $1.75-$2.00 per pound and syrup is $.20- $.50 a pound. In nature a hive would make a surplus in the summer which they would live on during the winter. We, as beekeepers would rather take some of that surplus and feed them syrup for them to winter on. 
In the spring, we might feed if they are running low on those winter survival stores, to get them to the first nectar flow, to build new comb or to stimulate them to build up for honey production. Those more focused on pollination might take their bees into a crop that doesn't support them, necessitating feeding for survival.
As for feeding thousands? 2 people can feed a semi drop of 500 in a matter of an hour or two, with a bulk syrup tank and a hose with a nozzle. Before we bring the bees into winter holding yards, it can take longer to drive between 2 yards of 40 than it does to feed them once there. If you have people hired full time anyway, it might not cost anything more to feed. When needed, feeding doesn't cost, it pays.

As Mark suggests, you might not have to feed if conditions are good, but it isn't always just a matter of managing them correctly. It also depends on your location and the forage available. 
It also depends on your goals. You now have 2 hives, how much is that the result of your feeding program? It takes resources to make comb and build a hive population. Feeding can greatly accelerate that process.
Sheri


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## alpha6

Wow...after reading this entire thread, the best advice comes from post #52...build up your operation slowly. If you have 50 now, I wouldn't go to over 250 the first year. Get a feel for the amount of equipment you are going to need. Let alone the storage, extracting equipment, etc. Remember, it's not just the hives...you will need hive movers, pallets, lids, feeders, about 1000 supers if you want any decent crop with 250 hives, frames...drawn ones at that or no honey the first year, extra deep frames, nuc boxes, queen excluders (for splits) and lets not forget locations and the fencing and solar systems to electify them (I am assuming you have bear problems like we do in Colorado). You also need paint, pollen traps, barrels, barrel movers, scales, drip boards, caulking, barrels of feed, treatments, queens in the spring and for nucs. Frame fixers, cleats on your hives if they don't have them, bee nets, hot room, and a market. And that's just off the top of my head. The work load from 50 to 250 is five times....you have to learn to work your hives differently and the more you have the quicker you have to move through each yard. Also don't forget to price in fuel, vehicle maint., insurance, tires and equipment rental if you don't own a swinger. Just some food for thought. Good luck.


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## sqkcrk

All of which can be bought. Except for the knowledge and experience of course.


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## kilocharlie

Please everybody, don't hate me for dragging out last year's thread.

Kallen - I think many of the posts diverge from your original question - regarding a BUSINESS PLAN showing profitability. I wish to avoid related issues - bee experience vs. business background, computer modeling vs. actual result, etc.

I'd like to see your biz plan efforts now, a year later. I'd be willing to share my efforts on my own biz plan in return. My biz plan is pure "Bravo Sierra", and was written when I was trying to get financed a couple years ago when financing would have helped a whole lot and set me far ahead of where I am now. At the present, outside financing would be disastrous. I'd never be able to buy back the ownership shares my hard work created, and would be relinquished to the role of grunt worker serving the Frankenstein's monster that I created. This is true due to the local 10ish-year Southern California rain/drought cycle. We appear to be going from the typical 1- to 3-year wet spell into the 3- to 7-year drought spell. 

I wanted to capitalize on the highly productive nectar and pollen flows of the wet years, and quick growth of my business would have been a real boon. That was then, now they have passed, and I anticipate drought. So, its back to looking for full-time working to make someone else rich for my small, steady paycheck, while sawing and stapling hives, frames, tops, pallets, etc. at night, splitting existing hives, improving a line of queens that the biz will need anyways, building I.I. apparatii in preparation for taking Dr. Sue Cobey's classes, revising the biz plan, staying ready to capitalize the best I can with what I have on any good years that pop up unexpectedly, etc...put it on the back burner.

You would appear to be in a decent position to get a biz plan to somehow show a profit, especially if you happen to own the land under the ranch, a semi or large flatbed, and the price of the 600 to 1000 hives you're looking to purchase.

I can understand experienced beekeepers who do not use business plans doubting if a computer model will ever represent an actual result. They're right, its doubtful, but all you are really trying to do is 1) demonstrate that a market exists, 2) describe what path you intend to take to cash flow from that market 3) demonstrate that you know enough about math to determine how much cash flow will keep you in the black, 4) suggest what reward a venture capitalist (loan shark) might expect from putting up that amount of money, and 5) show what collateral you could put up for the loan.

The business plan is just a billboard advertisement to get loan sharks, banks, the SBA, or your rich uncle to talk to you. Both of you should know that you hope to make enough money SOMEHOW ELSE to pay him back on time so he won't take away the collateral you offered or send Rocky to break your thumb.

All in all, writing a business plan and NOT getting a loan is a good idea because you learn a lot about your business. For example, it might lead you to post a question that gets a response like post #52 in this thread.

Conversely, writing and revising a business plan and getting a loan the right amount of time before a good year to double-down on your most profitable activity is also a good idea, except that I will get lampooned off this website for having said so (even with an extra $hundred grand in my pocket for having done it!). Its just soooooo easy for other beeks to point out the unfavourable risk-to-reward ratio of the concept in the previous sentence. A guy would want to be very careful with this "margin" activity.

If you want to compare biz plans (complete or otherwise), pm me, no offense taken if you don't, and apologies for wasting your reading time. I think we could serve as examples for each other, especially in that we would see how our differences (wintering, equipment, etc.) apply to planning. Palo Alto Software includes 2,000 sample business plans in Business Plan Pro, few ag-related, none beekeeping. I'd love to see a beekeeping sample, share wording, etc.

Perhaps another idea is merging with another sideline beek who happens to have many of the pieces you are looking to buy, who gets along with you very well, and who is trustworthy. You could even continue running separate businesses more efficiently due to the shared equipment, distributing the same low overhead over more sales, etc., but there I go again opening another can of worms...

Best wishes, and may Brother Adam's Rule of the Golden Mean be good to you.


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## RogerCrum

Kilocharlie, excellent post. I never had a business plan predict results accurately but the plan was always valuable. First, to make me think through the year. Second, to know what resources were needed and when. Third, to react when assumed conditions changed. And, finally to compare results after the season close. It has always been important to explain why results were better than expected as well as why things went poorly.


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## kilocharlie

Well, thank you, Roger, and nice follow-up. Wisconsin sure has some beekeepers who are excellent people. And I'm open to anyone who wants to share biz plan notes, discuss cooperation among bee businesses, mergers, incorporating, other ways to survive, grow, thrive, to know our limits, etc....


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## Sharpbees

I just want to thank everyone that responded to this post. Although I'm by no means a commercial beekeeper I wouldn't mind being a serious sideliner then maybe commercial someday. The biggest thing I take away from here is the answer to the question that I have seen posted numerous times on these forums: Can you make a living at beekeeping? The answer is yes you just have to remember a few things, be frugal in your spending-a well to do gentleman from my area once told me that it's not what you make, it's what you don't spend that counts. Most beekeepers seem to be quite frugal. Learn as you grow and grow as you learn. Be willing to work,HARD. Many people in today's society just don't have the grit to stick with something when they can make money an easier way. You have to have commitment to be a commercial beek. I think many times the post should be titled can I make money fast in beekeeping, the answer IMO is NO. Beekeeping is not a get rich quick business, I think the general mindset of the public is it's just throwing a box full of bees out there and wham you'll make money, maybe at one time in history that was kind of true but not in the past 40 or so years. The beeks that do this for a living do it because they don't mind hard physical labor, long days and little time for sitting around while someone else does the work. You have to gear your business toward being able to do most of the work yourself to remain viable in this industry. I commend anyone that has the perseverance to be a beekeeper in today's society, wish I could find that in some of the people I've had to work with over the years.  I enjoy keeping bees and that in itself is considered crazy in our world (Why would anyone want to keep bugs that sting while working at a back breaking job in the blazing sun and 100 degree temps in a set of two ply coveralls and a hood?) BECAUSE WE LIKE BEING OUR OWN BOSS AND BECAUSE WE ENJOY BEING DIFFERENT. That and personally I like knowing how to do things others can't.  As a small beek myself I am always trying to make sure people realize the labor involved in producing honey isn't easy and they should be willing to pay MORE for it. Maybe if every small beekeeper emphasized this more we could help our commercial counterparts get better prices for the labor they put into it. Like I said I commend you for the work you do and hopefully will be among you one of these days. You can make money at this I just don't think you can if you buy into it all at once.


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## kilocharlie

It probably doesn't feel good to have an idea struck down by so many doubters, and I'm not slinging any mud at anyone. Doubt is a good thing in business.

I just would like to point out a situation that I saw this spring. A guy from whom I bought some bees has 3,000 of his own hives. He specializes in pollination here in California. He buys 7,000 more hives from Florida in January just in time to haul in big money from almond pollination, then starts selling them off as fast as he can. Almond pollination pays enough that he is making $20 per box just buying them and pollinating almonds.
He grafts from the best of 10,000 hives, and sells lots of hives all year long. The brokers with all the contracts are making cash, too. Its not impossible.

I sure hope I get stuck needing a loan to get into that situation. That's why I keep revising the biz plan, trying to build up my credit rating, and credibility, while looking for beekeeping partners wishing to merge, grow, incorporate, work hard, learn, etc.


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## QueenBeeHoney

Stevebeeman said:


> Kallen,
> 
> If you have Excel, send me your email and I will send you an excel spreadsheet templet for budgets for bee business.


Hello,
I am not the person you responded to, however I am hoping you will agree to share the excel templet for budgets and beekeeping business. I greatly need a templet. I hope you will share it with me. Thank you.

Regards
QueenBeeHoney


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## World Pollination

Hello, I have been reading this thread for quite some time and have learned a ton of the pros and cons of the commercial side of beekeeping, so thank you for opening my eyes on the true reality of such a complex business. With having said that I would like some feedback on my goal to get in this business very soon. 
Let me give you a bit of my background. I have zero experience raising honey bees and renting them for pollination services. However, I specialize in transporting honey bees across the country for Almond pollination. My current scope of work is anywhere between 12-15 full 53' flat bed loads coast to coast (around 2900 miles) and growing each year. Keep in mind I do not transport anything but honey bees in the safest way possible and what goes to CA must also come home after the cycle. I have been doing this for 5 years now and believe I am ready to branch into the pollination side of the business making this a full time business. I have seen it ALL from the transport side, being that a truck overturns on the highway, weight/height problems, load rejection at the CA boarder and inspection fails requiring a full wash prior to entering..... those are just a few things I've dealt with, not to mention some very unreliable drivers putting your clients bees at risk of overheating.... I guess what I am getting at is that I have a great relationship with my current clients and would like to pitch my idea to them with hopes of sharing their almond contact with me so I can begin the process of raising bees for Almond pollination and transporting them alongside my clients bees for placement in the grooves. Do you think this is appropriate to ask and do you think it will jeopardize my relationship with him? Also, do you think it is a feasible task to have 350-400 hives ready and healthy by next season 2018? Lastly, I've crushed numbers for weeks and weeks but I would like to hear what you think it would cost me to have them ready by next February for the long journey to and from the almond orchards..

Assume these factors: Land.. How much land are we talking if my 5 year goal is to have 1 more truck load of bees each year. 5 years =5 full flatbed truck loads....


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## RAK

400 good hives your 1st year is not good idea.


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## delber

RAK said:


> 400 good hives your 1st year is not good idea.


I agree. Transporting bees is one thing, keeping bees alive and thriving with the current issues is another. I would encourage you to get some bees and see how it goes. I know I learned a TON about bees my first 2 years and I only had up to about 20 hives. I also have a full time job that took me away. Without a great mentor and some knowledge you'd have a very difficult time getting everything up and ready for that. Also transporting / pollinating is hard on the bees from what I understand and have read. I don't want to discourage you from starting but have realistic expectations. Going from 0 to 400 is a LOT of learning. I'd start with 20 or so and see how you are able to do.


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## rv10flyer

opcorn: Good luck.


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## jim lyon

World Pollination said:


> Hello, I have been reading this thread for quite some time and have learned a ton of the pros and cons of the commercial side of beekeeping, so thank you for opening my eyes on the true reality of such a complex business. With having said that I would like some feedback on my goal to get in this business very soon.
> Let me give you a bit of my background. I have zero experience raising honey bees and renting them for pollination services.


To be successful at commercial beekeeping you must first and foremost learn how to keep bees. In a large scale operation that can be hard, mundane and repetitive work but there is most definitely method to the madness and its stuff you really only learn through experience. Its an important distinction to repeat what you so accurately mention here. Box moving and beekeeping are two entirely different enterprises but each is a full time job. I am sure you can attest to the economic reality of paying back your large investment in trucking equipment with a lot of hours pounding the pavement. The same is true for beekeeping, buy some bees out of the almonds if you wish, split them down, find locations for them, pollination contracts for them or perhaps a honey house with extracting facilities along with forklifts and smaller trucks and you've got a boatload of money and (just as importantly) time invested, time that you aren't trucking. Its also important to understand that to get that load of 400 strong pollination ready bees may require starting as many as double that number, if every hive you start in April grades out in California 10 months later you will have done what few other beekeepers have managed to do. What you are proposing is financially very risky but doable as a standalone enterprise though I wouldn't expect to get a lot of good vibes from your beekeeping client about helping you in this venture as there really dosent appear to be anything in it for him though thats just speculation on my part. Expecting to do it in parallel with running a profitable trucking enterprise, however is unlikely to succeed, beekeepers should keep bees and truckers should truck, take your pick. Not trying to discourage you here, just pointing out the realities as I see them.


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## loggermike

Very well said ,Jim. An old logging business owner once told me the biggest mistake he made in his career was buying trucks to haul his logs. That put him in the trucking business too, and it didn't turn out well.He would have been better served concentrating on his core business, which was logging.

But ,hey, all things are possible .


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## jim lyon

loggermike said:


> Very well said ,Jim. An old logging business owner once told me the biggest mistake he made in his career was buying trucks to haul his logs. That put him in the trucking business too, and it didn't turn out well.He would have been better served concentrating on his core business, which was logging.
> 
> But ,hey, all things are possible .


Every time I get frustrated at not having a truck where I want it when I want it I think about buying a big truck of my own. I've done the math on it and talked to other beekeepers and truckers and reconsidered. Having a truck and having someone willing to drive it and chase down the backhauls that make it viable are 2 different things and I like the idea that hiring a truck is essentially hiring someone to do a job for only a relatively short period of time. I once had a sage old beekeeper advise me that any truck you buy better be useful to you in beeyard or your wasting your money. Some beekeepers use a 10 wheeler and pull a pup and that arrangement might work pretty well for some operations though it seems, for some reason, like it is becoming a little less common.....or maybe not.


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## Brian Suchan

Stick with what you know and are good at. Beekeepers leave the trucking to the truck driver, and vice versa.


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## bbbbbbk8ebee

I'm too tired to read all of these replies because I just worked a 16 hour day on these stupid bees, but I did see your $20 a hive estimate on feed and medication and whatever. Man, wouldn't that be nice. I bet I spend $150 a hive yearly just to get it here and keep it alive to rent it for $185 or $190. And that's if you're not feeding all your bees 3 times more than normal because of the weather. There is a reason pollination prices are so high. It's because it takes a whole lot more than $20 to take care of a hive. Matter of fact I'm really starting to wonder why and how I managed to become this middle man who gets these big fat checks that I get to turn around and give right back to some other guy.. more I think about it....hey, you wanna buy a couple thousand hives? I'll make you a good deal! Good Luck buddy.


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## loggermike

Yes that big pollination check sure rolls away quick when you gotta buy tankers of syrup, sub, meds,trailers, forklifts, queens,new Ram trucks,pallets, boxes ,frames,bee suits, smokers, etc., etc.....

I am always pleased if there is enough left for a new pair of boots and some wranglers


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## IsedHooah

I am curious what ever happened to the OP of this thread. They only ever made the three posts in this thread, and that was back in 2011. Regardless, I am sure what may have been true than, is certainly different today. I appreciate the amount of work and time it takes you large scale beeks to run a successful operation. I know that it is definitely not for me.


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## Keith Jarrett

jim lyon said:


> Every time I get frustrated at not having a truck where I want it when I want it .


Jimbo, you left out " where you sent it ". lol


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## bbbbbbk8ebee

I have a really good retirement plan though. At the end of the year if I have a dollar left I'm gonna buy a lotto ticket and retire a millionaire. It's fool proof.


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## Maguillard

After reading all of the replies to the original poster's question, I was still interested in possibly seeing some examples of what anyone has used as business plans or models? 
I have hit a road block on how to convey my intentions on to paper...


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## HarryVanderpool

Here is the most successful plan I have seen, and the one I used:
Keep your day job and start with 2 hives.
Double each year, paying in cash.
Grow your bees at equal speed with your knowledge.
Any faster may result in failure.
When you get into the 200ish range back off on the increase each year from doubling and rather that which you can handle and afford IN CASH.
Run your bees with zero debt.
Zero debt will always serve you well.
Work within the agricultural community in your area.
Beekeeping is not a "stand alone" business.
If you start right off fighting and bickering with your fellow beekeepers in your area, you can expect a very rocky road ahead.
Join your state beekeepers association and work at integrating with the best.
Good luck!


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## B&E

Some excellent points in there.

However, the statement that beekeeping is not a stand alone business is false. That isn't to say that everyone with bees has a stand alone business in their hands.


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## sqkcrk

Get a standard business plan and start filling it in each December with your Projected Plan and then, once you have some data, your Actual Plan. Do that three or four years in a row and either you will find it helpful when it comes to making decisions or you won't and you will stop doing a Business Plan. Which is what I did. I stopped.

Jim Lyon, do you do an annual Business Plan? I got tired of trying to figure out how we paid all of the bills and had enough money to buy food, pay the mortgage and the vehicle loans, when it appeared as though there wasn't any extra money at the end of the year.

If I have a plan it's to sock away money when I can in order to pay for extracting and then store honey to sell all year round to pay the monthly bills and have enough money to go south and do what I need to do to fill my equipment so I can make another honey crop and keep the cycle turning round and round. Then, when I have a big year, buy a new truck or pay off the old one. 

I had a friend who said that the only money he made in bees is what he stole from his own business. I think he meant the cash he socked away in his safe and in his savings account or lock box at the Bank.


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## Roland

Sqkcrk - with respect - is it possible your friend was talking about all of the personal items that where paid for by the company, like vehicles, clothes(uniforms) and shoes, repair parts for everything, and safety equipment(the gun below the seat of the truck)?

Crazy Roland


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## jim lyon

sqkcrk said:


> Get a standard business plan and start filling it in each December with your Projected Plan and then, once you have some data, your Actual Plan. Do that three or four years in a row and either you will find it helpful when it comes to making decisions or you won't and you will stop doing a Business Plan. Which is what I did. I stopped.
> 
> Jim Lyon, do you do an annual Business Plan? I got tired of trying to figure out how we paid all of the bills and had enough money to buy food, pay the mortgage and the vehicle loans, when it appeared as though there wasn't any extra money at the end of the year.


Not a specific plan, Mark. Our plan is just trying to figure out how the heck we can get all the work done. Your business is a lot different than ours. One can do well in this business if you can get an almond check, a honey crop and little side gig selling bees and queens. I used to package and market a lot of honey but decided that living in a rural area without the population base that running hundreds of miles to deliver 100 cases or so of honey just didn't pay very well compared to using that time to expand our hive numbers. Besides, I just wasn't a good enough salesman to be very good at marketing.


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## sqkcrk

Roland said:


> Sqkcrk - with respect - is it possible your friend was talking about all of the personal items that where paid for by the company, like vehicles, clothes(uniforms) and shoes, repair parts for everything, and safety equipment(the gun below the seat of the truck)?
> 
> Crazy Roland


Possibly.

If I was someone else, and/or had a different accountant, my trip to CA last June would have been a total business expense, rather than a partial business expense. I believe I know beekeepers who don't go anywhere or do anything that isn't a business expense. They don't go out to eat without it being a business expense. They go to a show of some sort, they take their help, it's a business expense. I'm not that sharp.


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## sqkcrk

jim lyon said:


> Not a specific plan, Mark. Our plan is just trying to figure out how the heck we can get all the work done. Your business is a lot different than ours. One can do well in this business if you can get an almond check, a honey crop and little side gig selling bees and queens. I used to package and market a lot of honey but decided that living in a rural area without the population base that running hundreds of miles to deliver 100 cases or so of honey just didn't pay very well compared to using that time to expand our hive numbers. Besides, I just wasn't a good enough salesman to be very good at marketing.


 One main difference between you and I, the way I see it, Jim, is that I don't have the same mindset as you do. I'm not as focused and don't have the work ethic that you do, perhaps. You were raised working, I wasn't. So it's in your DNA. I admire that sort of thing, but I didn't develop it within myself.

I haven't figured out whether I am actually making any money bottling and selling honey, but it is a cash flow that is somewhat dependable. I can determine how much honey I will sell in the coming year and sell in bulk what I don't need to have enough to satisfy the demand from my customers, mostly the stores I deliver to.


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## jim lyon

sqkcrk said:


> Possibly.
> 
> If I was someone else, and/or had a different accountant, my trip to CA last June would have been a total business expense, rather than a partial business expense. I believe I know beekeepers who don't go anywhere or do anything that isn't a business expense. They don't go out to eat without it being a business expense. They go to a show of some sort, they take their help, it's a business expense. I'm not that sharp.


Perhaps the last word in your post should have been "audacious". I'm a bit more like you Mark, I tend not to push things too far when it comes to tax deductions. I sleep better that way. . I also question some of the section 179 logic that many use to avoid taxes. New equipment is nice but it dosent exactly come off the bottom line of your taxes. Sometimes you just gotta pay up.


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## Skinner Apiaries

jim lyon said:


> Perhaps the last word in your post should have been "audacious". I'm a bit more like you Mark, I tend not to push things too far when it comes to tax deductions. I sleep better that way. . I also question some of the section 179 logic that many use to avoid taxes. New equipment is nice but it dosent exactly come off the bottom line of your taxes. Sometimes you just gotta pay up.


hmm conjuring Patton up. Say audacious 3 times like beetle juice. Taxes are good. Means you're making money. I got a bankrupt neighbor kept buying new tractors to not pay taxes, never could figure out why he needed to do that, I sure won't making nothing beside him to need to pay taxes on...


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## tarheel bee

I also had these same thoughts of being a commercial beek. My approach was to hire on with an owner/operator to learn the ins and outs. It truly is much more daunting than most folks can imagine. This fellow runs 1500 by himself and added 1 or 2 to be able to pay me. We do almonds, blueberries, cukes and melons and some honey. We re not home very much and the work isnt easy physically or mentally. (think heavy bee suit in 95 degree weather from sun up to sundown and quickly diagnosing hives while the heat frys the cranium) Bear attacks, shoddy queens and malfunctioning equipment are par for course and its never convenient timing. Loading semis at 3am when youve worked all day and have to continue into the next day is not uncommon. Its very physical. 
As far as I can tell 500 hives are about $50,000. That doesnt include any infrastructure which costs at least 3xs that. I do know another person who purchased a semi load and an old truck and loader but hes constantly in financial straits and just barely able to pay drivers to ship his bees. 
As others have stated, to have a semi load Ive observed the need to have double that amount to account for deadouts, junk hives and other issues.
Its nice to have an understanding wife and great credit as well, along with a strong back and a weak mind.
It can certainly be done but paying tuition by working for someone else and testing the waters to see if it is a good fit might not be a bad idea. I quickly realized that I knew nadda but its the most fun you can have with your clothes on.  These are only the observations of a neophyte who wouldnt trade his career for anything- even a career that paid well.


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## Michael Palmer

tarheel bee said:


> As far as I can tell 500 hives are about $50,000.


Good luck with that.


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## Roland

Now Mr. Palmer, I believe that 50,000 dollars will get you close to 500 hives. It WILL take close to another 50,000 dollars to put bees in them. 

SQKCRK - Remember, your loosing out on a tax deduction does not cost your accountant, so he will error on the side of caution. Ask him f you think there is an expense you think you can right off legally. Like Mr. Lyon, I play it pretty safe, but always wondered if guns and ammo could be considered safety equipment. Remember, if they question you about where some expense went, you can always say "follow me out to the beeyard, I can open a hive and show you". I bet it will be the end of that discussion.

Crazy Roland


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## tarheel bee

Indeed, my math was errant. The 4 way paallets alone are $80.00 each. 
Told you I was new.


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## chillardbee

500 hives for 50,000 bucks might get you the most basic of equipment. 2 boxes, a lid, and a bottom board maybe. But you will also need feeders, excluders, 2 to 3 supers for honey. also you need bees for those boxes like roland said. The expenses that first year too for feed and treatment for mites. I would look at purchasing everything you will eventually need with a hive. The equipment (broodnest, honeysupers, feeders, ect), bees, feed, and put money away for your mite treatments. it would probably be closer to starting 100 hives with 50,000 bucks that will actually have a chance at living and being somewhat useful the next year. otherwise worst case scenario is you're standing over your hives in the fall watching them die from mites and starvation or best case scenario (which is pretty bad) is standing in your yard next spring when they're crying for room but you have no supers to give them and no money to buy them and your hives start shooting out swarms like a howitzer unit in barrage mode.


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## odfrank

A Mann Lake "Growing Apiary Kit" is $280, bees $100 +/-, and don't forget the value of your time or cost of a helper. And a hive stand. Feed for the new bees. The list goes on.

$100 hives? Hard to get bees for $100.


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