# queen cell question



## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

I have a quick question for you all, and I thought this section would be better to ask it. I did a cut-out last Saturday, was in the hive tonight and couldn't find the queen. ( I thought she wasn't doing well when I found her on Saturday) I did find some queen cells as it appears to me. I'd like to get your thoughts as to what you think I should do. I'll copy a post I wrote earlier. 

Ok guys. I welt out to the hive tonight after work and couldn't find the queen. I did however find queen cells which made me VERY excited!!! I think at least 2 cells if not more. The bees wouldn't leave them open for very long (I had to smoke them away to get this picture) so I could get a good look. In this picture there's one larva that you can see. Right below that (the next square down) there's what seems to be a capped queen cell. (Is this correct?) It's hard for me to see the capped queen cell in this picture. The bees were quick to get back on them. There are also at least 2 other queen cells that could have larva in them I'm not sure. I think one of them I did look at and there was larva with royal honey in it which is also a great sign. 

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x323/delber2/queencell.jpg

So my question for you all tonight is what should I do? Should I let them go and do whatever they want or do you think I should try to go back and cut out that capped queen cell? I'd love to get 2 hives from this one, but I don't know about it because they don't have a ton of bees. They fill up one deep body fairly well so I thought I could split it, but I'm not sure. What are your thoughts?


----------



## toad (Jun 18, 2009)

Both the cells in the picture aren't capped. you said there is one that is capped? An good old beek told me some time ago they (the bees) know better than we do. Let them do their thing. I see you are in Pa. tocold yet to split just one deep and have enough bees. let them go and feed them well and get them into two boxes and the weather will be warmer by then and then split them.


----------



## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

I will never ever cut out a queen cell again. Is the worst advise I have ever received. Lost hives going into winter because they were replacing the queen and I stopped them and then they would not take a new installed queen. I'll use the swarm cells to stock nucs and let them raise their own queen. I'll leave the supersedure cells to let them replace a queen on their own.

I could not tell from the picture if there is a larva in those queen cups. They build empty cups just in case they need to start a queen later so I don't cut them out either. I may live long enough for someone to convince me to cut out queen cells again, or not. I'm looking forward to capped queen cells to use to start new nucs!

From the position of those cells I'd think if they have larva in them then they are supersedure cells. That's a ton of bees on that frame to be a failing queen. Beat ya there is no larva in those cells and they are just keeping them around just in case.


----------



## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

If you see in the picture the larva that is there. (using the mesh that's holding the comb in as a grid. . . starting at the upper right if you go to the left 3 squares and down 4 you'll see the larva that I'm talking about. The capped cell is in the square below that one) The capped cell is in the square right below it. There's a bee on it the capped one makes it hard to see. 

Sorry barry for the large picture. I don't know how to make it smaller.


----------



## wildbeekeeper (Jul 3, 2010)

Looks like it may be a drone cell to me. There is no downward position of the cell and that larvae is big with very little (if any at all) royal jelly. A queen larvae that size would be floating in a nice bed of royal jelly. id say its a drone cell....

whoops...looking at wrong cell  yup, its hard to see if there are eggs or larvae in those two cells... maybe just play or maybe supercedure. Ive sometimes seen when I do removals, that it cause enough disturbance to the colony taht they think they lost their queen but they really havent....thy figure it out a couple of days later...especially if your queen is safe and unharmed. If she didnt look well when you removed he from the cutout then they may be trying to supercede her.


----------



## BiG T (Oct 25, 2010)

Wait till its warmer then take the frame with the capped cell put that into a nuc along with a honey frame and pollen and brood leaving behind the rest. Add foundation or if you use foundationless frames to your old hive to makeup frames you took out.


----------



## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Definitely leave the queen cells alone. Chances are very good that they are replacing the queen. She could have been injured in the cutout. Let the bees sort this out.

BTW, please let us know what this green grid material is, and where can it be purchased? Looks like a really neat solution to holding comb from a cutout. Thanks


----------



## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Let the dang bees take care of the situation! You just cut out and hived this bunch last Sat and thinking about splitting them before they're established? They need a queen or they wouldn't be building cells.


----------



## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

AstroBee said:


> BTW, please let us know what this green grid material is, and where can it be purchased? Looks like a really neat solution to holding comb from a cutout. Thanks


The green mesh I got from Home Depot. It's 1" mesh that I cut to fit the frames. So far it has worked out very well. I took a "free course" on bees-on-the-net.com and got the idea from him. It was super easy and fast to staple the comb in. I prepared them the night before I did the cut-out so I could just lay them in, staple the other side and put it in the box. The whole cut-out I had done in about 2.5 hours. Granted I could have done it quicker if I wasn't a new beekeeper, but hey I think that's pretty good. 

Thanks for all your responses guys. I appreciate it more than you know. I'll leave them alone and let them to their own devices. I must say beekeeping is totally fun!! (accept for the stings that you take) I guess I need to keep my new beekeeping enthusiasm in check. I'll keep you all posted as to how things go. Thanks again.


----------



## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Ok I have some new questions for you all. . .I was out there on Thursday Because I figured that if the queen had "made it" she would have hatched out by Sunday at the latest. I was surprised to find capped drone cells, some eggs (only 1 per cell, but very spotty) and some small larva, but it was only in drone cells. They were already starting the cappings a little and it was drone. So my questions. . .If the queen would have made it could she have laid some drone cells before going out on her mating flights? :scratch: I took pictures of every frame yesterday (Saturday 4/30) and have looked over them and I can't find any trace of a queen, but my thought before Thursday was that I wouldn't see any brood so I was surprised. Could this hive have gone "laying worker" and that would be the reason for only drones? Would the laying workers have killed their own q-cells? I know that if you introduce a q-cell or a queen to a laying worker hive they will ball it, but to do it to their own? Do you all have any other thoughts? The down side is that I only have this one hive right now. I know that if I had another hive I could introduce eggs / small larva to the hive to get them back on track, but what do I do with this? Do I just wait another week and see? They are drawing out comb fairly nicely, but it does seem like it's a little large to be worker brood. But I haven't measured it yet though.


----------



## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Bumping this to try to get some answers to my last post. Thanks


----------



## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Being pressed for time, I haven't read all of the posts, just skimmed over them, so excuse me if you have already answered my questions... did you see any worker brood during your most recent inspection... and did you see the queen or any more queen cells?

If not, you need to find some brood (eggs and small larvae) from another hive to give them to reverse the laying worker status... cells will usually work if you can find someone with a few in your area... if you cannot find cells, you will need to get a queen from someone quickly (if you have to buy one, you could find that there may be a while to wait for an opening)... once the laying worker status has been reversed, you can install you new queen after killing the e-queen that they make from the eggs and larvae. Good luck.


----------



## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

> did you see any worker brood during your most recent inspection... 

The only thing I saw was capped drone. I did see workers w/ their abdomen in the cells though. There was some small larva that on Thursday were eggs.

> and did you see the queen or any more queen cells?

This is my concern. I know that as a new beek it often goes that they can't find the queen. I took the time to look as carefully as I could and took pictures of every frame and can't find her. The old queen that was injured in the cut-out was italian so I thought it would have been easier to find a "new" queen at least in the pictures if I couldn't as I was there. 

I looked into the time frame of the Q-cells that they had and the queen should have emerged a week ago. That being the case I wasn't expecting to see any brood at all. I was surprised to see capped drone, a newly drawn out frame w/ eggs and small larva in a haphazzard pattern. This is why I'm concerned.


----------



## frazzledfozzle (May 26, 2010)

If I've got your time line right you took the photo of the queencells on the 14th they look to be about 2 day old cells so add another 7/8 days till they hatch brings you to the 21/22. today is the 3rd for me, might be the 2nd for you I dont know, so thats only 10 or 11 days after hatching, If your weather has been fabulous with temps at least 20 Celcius and not much wind she might have been out to mate by now add a few days before she lays and you could expect lavae before the weekend. If the weather has been cool or windy you may not have a laying queen for another week to 10 days.


----------



## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Frazzled this is exactly what I was expecting. This is why I am concerned. I wasn't expecting to see any brood at all and when I saw capped drone cells and some sporatic larva (3 -5 per deep frame) I was doubly concerned. I thought laying worker. 

Could it be possible that a worker laid some cells to create drones for the new queen to mate with? (That would be some incredible bees I'd say) Would / could that explain it? Do you all have any other ideas or things to look for? I spent 1.5 hours looking through the frames (they haven't filled 1 deep yet but are close. I may add a second one Saturday) this past Saturday for the queen and couldn't find one. 

Thanks for all your thoughts guys.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I wasn't expecting to see any brood at all and when I saw capped drone cells and some sporatic larva (3 -5 per deep frame) I was doubly concerned. I thought laying worker.

http://bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm

>Could it be possible that a worker laid some cells to create drones for the new queen to mate with?

This assumes a sense of purpose on the part of a laying worker. I'm certain they have no sense of purpose. No hive is creating drones "for the new queen to mate with". The odds of those drones mating with their new queen would be very low. They raise drones because it's their instinct to do so and it meets a need probably for a queen from another hive.

You also seem to assume both a soon to be queen and laying workers. The two for all practical purposes never occur together. A laying worker develops because of a lack of brood for two or three weeks. If there has been no open brood for two or three weeks, there is no hope to raise a queen.

> (That would be some incredible bees I'd say) Would / could that explain it? Do you all have any other ideas or things to look for? I spent 1.5 hours looking through the frames (they haven't filled 1 deep yet but are close. I may add a second one Saturday) this past Saturday for the queen and couldn't find one. 

The most likely cause of not finding a queen and brood is that she is a virgin and runs and hides and is small enough that she's hard to tell and does not move "regally" like a queen, but fast like a worker. But you may be queenless.

There are few solutions as universal in their application and their success than adding a frame of open brood every week for three weeks. It is a virtual panacea for any queen issues. It gives the bees the pheromones to suppress laying workers. It gives them more workers coming in during a period where there is no laying queen. It does not interfere if there is a virgin queen. It gives them the resources to rear a queen. It is virtually foolproof and does not require finding a queen or seeing eggs. If you have any issue with queenrightness, no brood, worried that there is no queen, this is the simple solution that requires no worrying, no waiting, no hoping. You just give them what they need to resolve the situation. If you have any doubts about the queenrightness of a hive, give them some open brood and sleep well. Repeat once a week for two more weeks if you still aren't sure. By then things will be fine.


----------



## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

Michael,

Thank you for taking the time for the last post. Impressive that you must have recalled the answer to the question and posted what appears to be the definitive answer.

You are leading by example. I'm learning so much about things I've yet to experience. I hope my memory works as well.


----------



## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Michael,
Thanks so much for your time and help. I was hoping that either you or "oldtimer" or someone that I know with more experience would reply. My problem is that I only have 1 hive. (this one) So giving "open brood" isn't a possibility unless I get it from someone else. 

In doing my math I may have gotten the timing wrong by a few days. I'll wait and see if they have worked themselves out. If they did have a "new queen" the pattern would have been spotty also. Perhaps on Saturday I'll be going back and I'm going to try to not use smoke to see if I can find a queen. I know that they do run from smoke and that makes it hard for sure. I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again to all of you. I greatly appreciate your help!!!!


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

And now you know why you should always have at least two hives. Maybe you can talk a fellow beekeeper into parting with a frame of eggs.


----------



## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Ok Guys I have some new news and questions. I did find a queen today. This may not be the best picture but here's a link to it. . . 
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x323/delber2/Queen.jpg
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x323/delber2/Queen2.jpg
I watched her for some time and she seemed to act like I've heard virgin queens do. She was "hiding" from me. When I first spotted her she had her head in a cell and other bees were covering her. My first thought was well maby it's too cold for her. Well that didn't make sense because the temp is about 60 today, sunny and little to no wind. As I watched further it was like the other workers were trying to get her out of the cell. She came out, went over a little and then went back into hiding. Is this normal? She didn't give me the impression of a queen that knows what she's to do and is doing it. 
I also have some capped brood. 
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x323/delber2/brood.jpg
This is a concern to me. (especially in light of my queen thoughts) What do you all think? What I've seen "worker" brood is usually flatter while drone is more rounded. I'm thinking that because this is new comb that this may not be a issue, but I wanted to throw it out to get your thoughts. Does this brood look Ok? 
In doing a complete inspection today I didn't see any eggs or any other small larva or anything. Would you be concerned? It may be that they're just waiting until this new brood hatches before rearing more I don't know. Seems odd to me though that they'd not be rearing more and that the queen wouldn't be laying more. Does it seem odd to you? I'd appreciate any thoughts you have.


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

She looks like a recently mated queen, perhaps she'll start laying in a few days. Does she have any empty worker comb to lay in?


----------



## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

There is some. Not a ton because they haven't drawn it yet. There's room for them to draw it out, but I figured perhaps any new bees that are born will be better / faster to draw it out. What do you think of the brood? Does the capped brood appear to be worker or drone, or is it too hard to see?


----------



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

All I've seen in your pics are drone brood, except where the queen was, that looks like it could be capped worker brood (hard to tell with the bees nearly completely covering it).


----------



## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

All of the brood that I see in the pics is definitely drone brood... with no other brood (open or closed), I would assume that the queen is either very fresh or a drone layer... she is small, so either she has gotten slim for mating flights, or she has run out of sperm and the bees have begun to lessen her nutrition... I would recommend a frame of brood and see what happens in the next week... if she doesn't kick it in gear soon, I would just replace her... sorry, I hate to bring bad news, but the sooner its addressed, the less damaging it will be.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

That drone brood is in drone cells. It is possible that they raised a queen who is not laying yet and the drone hasn't quite all emerged (less than 24 days since it was laid, but more than 21 so all the worker brood has emerged). In three more days the drones should have all emerged and the queen should probably be laying


----------



## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

thanks guys. M.B. the problem with that thought is that the brood you see is all on new comb. If it's all drone (which is what I was concerned) she either may not have gotten mated properly, or for some other reason laid these cells before being mated? I dont' think I've ever read anything about a queen laying eggs before going out on mating flights. I do have one more picture with larva in it. This was the only other spot that I saw today. I didn't find any eggs or any small larva, but at least where the queen was I didn't smoke them away to see much of what was under them. Here's the last picture. . . 
http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x323/delber2/100_7467.jpg
If you all think that the other is drone then I'm thinking that this is also. let me know what you think. Thanks again.


----------



## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Well guys I'm shocked!!! I thought I was done as far as "survivor stock" from the cut-out. A guy from my local club had some queens so I bought 2. I split the hive 3 ways hoping for the best. (I left the one there in the deep box, and pulled a frame of stores from the cut-out for each nuc and a frame of partially drawn comb) I just wasn't confortable squishing the queen that they had reared even though she only laid 1/2 of a frame of drone and it didn't look good. Then nothing until today!!! I thought the nuc was going to be hurting and the one queen that I installed into the other needed room, so I swapped frames. 1 w/ eggs and small larva for a equally drawn comb w/ no eggs or anything. Perhaps 1/3 of the frame was drawn out on both. Well I was expecting to see q-cells when I opened them up today because that was last week that I swapped them out. Well There were some capped brood (just a few) some larva and some eggs. I figured that the eggs were still there because it may have gotten chilled and died. I tried to go fast, but it was a little cold that evening. (Mid 50's I'd guess w/ no wind and the nucs are about 6 feet apart so I thought I'd be fine.) Well I found another frame in the nuc w/ the queen. Here's a picture.

http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x323/delber2/Queenmadeit.jpg

I was shocked. It seems that perhaps the queen when she was a virgin did lay some drone, and then stopped laying. Then she went out on a mating flight and is now laying in worker cell!!! I don't understand why and how all of this happened, but I'm fairly sure that it wasn't and isn't a laying worker issue because there was only one egg in the bottom of the cells with the exception of 2 eggs every so often. Never more than that, and never on the sides of the cells. It does seem that the queen laid some drone and then when they hatched out went on her mating flights and now is laying and mated. I didn't see her today because I was going quick and was only looking for q-cells until I found the other eggs. Amazing!!! Bees will do whatever they want. I'm shocked, but have learned through this. The good thing now it seems that I have 3 hives that are all doing well!!! Very cool. Thanks for all your help guys.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>thanks guys. M.B. the problem with that thought is that the brood you see is all on new comb. If it's all drone (which is what I was concerned) she either may not have gotten mated properly, or for some other reason laid these cells before being mated?

Virgin queens don't lay eggs. After they are mated a queen will lay. If she mates late it will be all drones. If it's on time, it will be fertile eggs in worker cells and drones in drone cells.

> I dont' think I've ever read anything about a queen laying eggs before going out on mating flights.

Because they don't.

There are always multiple laying workers even in a queenright hive

"Anarchistic bees" are ever present but usually in small enough numbers to not cause a problem and are simply policed by the workers UNLESS they need drones. The number is always small as long as ovary development is suppressed.

See page 9 of "The Wisdom of the Hive"

"Although worker honey bees cannot mate, they do possess ovaries and can produce viable eggs; hence they do have the potential to have male offspring (in bees and other Hymenoptera, fertilized eggs produce females while unfertilized eggs produce males). It is now clear, however, that this potential is exceedingly rarely realized as long as a colony contains a queen (in queenless colonies, workers eventually lay large numbers of male eggs; see the review in Page and Erickson 1988). One supporting piece of evidence comes from studies of worker ovary development in queenright colonies, which have consistently revealed extremely low levels of development. All studies to date report far fewer than 1 % of workers have ovaries developed sufficiently to lay eggs (reviewed in Ratnieks 1993; see also Visscher 1995a). For example, Ratnieks dissected 10,634 worker bees from 21 colonies and found that only 7 had moderately developed egg (half the size of a completed egg) and that just one had a fully developed egg in her body." 

If you do the math, in a normal booming queenright hive of 100,000 bees that's 70 laying workers. In a laying worker hive it's much higher.


----------



## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Thanks again Michael. I guess I'm yet again in a waiting game. If these eggs all are drone then I'll need to look into what's going on. I know from reading that a laying worker will lay numerous eggs in one cell, not one per as you see in the picture in post 27. From all this I do know that I have 2 hives that have "good queens" that are seeming to be doing well. Eggs and larva all over. I may continue to take a frame from one of them and give it to them. If their queen is a drone queen would they superceede her if they realize that and if I give them the eggs, or would I need to squish her? This has been a great learning experience for me!!!! I can't say I understand much of what has happened to this point. I have several questions that don't have answers for. For example. . . Why would they (during the flow and w/ room to expand) only lay a few eggs and not continue? Did this queen hatch earlier than I thought and went out and was mated earlier than I saw and if so why didn't she start laying before this? If this is a laying worker hive now why is there only 1 egg per cell (with the ocasional 2 per cell which I understand is normal w/ a new laying queen) and the pattern looks pretty good at this point? These are questions I have, but don't have answered yet. A learning experience for sure!! I'll keep you all posted.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Thanks again Michael. I guess I'm yet again in a waiting game. If these eggs all are drone then I'll need to look into what's going on.

Of course.

> I know from reading that a laying worker will lay numerous eggs in one cell, not one per as you see in the picture in post 27. From all this I do know that I have 2 hives that have "good queens" that are seeming to be doing well. Eggs and larva all over. I may continue to take a frame from one of them and give it to them. If their queen is a drone queen would they superceede her if they realize that and if I give them the eggs, or would I need to squish her?

In my experience they will supersede queen who isn't doing right if they have the means. But in 8 days when those eggs are capped you'll know if they are drones and if so, I'd dispatch her (a jar of alcohol will let you use her essence for swarm bait later.

>Why would they (during the flow and w/ room to expand) only lay a few eggs and not continue?

The old queen may have failed or died.

> Did this queen hatch earlier than I thought and went out and was mated earlier than I saw and if so why didn't she start laying before this?

I've seen package queens take two weeks. I've seen newly emerged queens take three weeks. I've seen both start in 3 days.

> If this is a laying worker hive now why is there only 1 egg per cell (with the ocasional 2 per cell which I understand is normal w/ a new laying queen) and the pattern looks pretty good at this point?

Then it's probably not laying workers or the level of laying workers hasn't peaked yet. Laying workers have patterns that are harder to put you finger on like spotty cappings (very spotty and all drones) and multiple larvae even before they start having enough multiple eggs to discern it from that.


----------



## enchplant (Apr 10, 2011)

yes it sure seems like you have laying worker. A good queen will lay in worker cells exclusively in a small nuc. She senses they need brood that can be useful.


----------

