# Positioning drawn combs and New Foundation for Good Alignment



## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Hi,

This positioning method for alignment for a more harmonious internal frame placement is called "Housel Positioning".

At your option, you may either accept or reject, but it does seem to relieve a great deal of stress inside of beehives, so that in itself can only help our honeybees. 

What else it does in the future I can only write about as no one has really done it in mass enough to see and understand within today's domesticated colonies.

I sure I will be writing much here in the future talking about things we are seeing and for others to maybe want to try and see also.

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Hi Dee,

I have the positioning done in the bees for approx. 2 months or so now to the second brood chamber but not the third as they were packed 100% with honey and couldn't see the cells at all(and my back started hurting from all that lifting). I haven't drawn any combs yet with this positioning so can't comment. I did seem to have an effect on bulging combs as they filled in with honey in the second deep. Also the bees were located centered in the hives instead of off positioned. I cannot comment on the other things yet as I haven't had a chance to look. But will in the spring. I wonder if the positioning will have an effect of wintering clusters that drift off to the side? Possible TM stress causing split clusters and such? Will be interesting to see.

Clay


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Could someone please explain or direct me to an expanaion on "Housel Positioning"?


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Hi,

Could someone please explain or direct me to an expanaion on "Housel Positioning"?

reply:

On the home page on beesource.com under, in the news, click on the link.

regards,

Clay


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Sorry, I went looking and found it easily. I have a shortcut to the forum and didn't see it. Thanks.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I am a bit confused by the "Housel Positioning" concept. I understand that there is a right and left to the natural comb and to the foundation. I do NOT understand how it is geometricly possible to have a comb with both of the "Y"s inverted. Since the "Y" you see is just the walls of the cell on the opposite side, I don't think it's possible to have them both inverted or both noninverted. One has to be one way and the other side has to be the other way, because that's how it works geometricly when you put a vertex of one hex in the middle of the hex on the opposite side. 

The only way I can see, to make both sides the same would be to line the hex on one side up with the walls of the hex on the other side, and there would be no "Y" at all and the end of the cell would be flat, instead of "domed".

Maybe the bees could build the ends of these lined up hexes so they are thick enough to make the dome on the ends and therfore create an inverted "Y" shape by a different means altogether, instead of it being the walls from the opposite side.

Maybe this is irrelavant since we have no way with foundation to create this center piece of comb.

Does anyone have an illustration to show what a center feral comb actually looks like in 3 dimensions? Next time I tear into a feral hive I will be looking for this, but if the combs are full, it will be difficult to tell what way they go. 

I admit it is a very tempting theory which explains a lot of bee behaviour we have all observed. Combs that the bees don't want to draw, etc.


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Michael 

You wrote:
The only way I can see, to make both sides the same would be to line the hex on one side up with the walls of the hex on the other side, and there would be no "Y" at all and the end of the cell would be flat, instead of "domed".

Maybe the bees could build the ends of these lined up hexes so they are thick enough to make the dome on the ends and therfore create an inverted "Y" shape by a different means altogether, instead of it being the walls from the opposite side.

Reply:
I just don't know enough here Michael and I have been looking at feral cutouts for over 20 years or more. I never keyed into the positioning until talking with Michael Housel who also monitors and works with a lot of them down in Florida.

But it does raise questions on positioning.Namely in my mind, if the outside combs end up with the Y up facing out to protect the hanging combs and the Y down facing in on each of the sides, then at some place within they have to MAKE THE TURN, but how would be the big question.

Do they just reverse and start cold turkey, or gradually make the turn over one or two frames, or like said to me have a central frame. Just how is that turn made. I can see maybe a thicker comb or one that is reoriented with age to have both sides the same, but how to the bees make the change.

I am looking at this closely now, but we just had a drought year and not many swarms and comb. But we got an El Nino this coming one and many swarms coming, so I will indeed be looking hard to find out.

You forther wrote:
Maybe this is irrelavant since we have no way with foundation to create this center piece of comb.

reply:
Well, indeed it does seems to be ierelavant in domestic colonies when we repositioned and drew an imaginary one. The bees keyed in just fine!

You continued:
Does anyone have an illustration to show what a center feral comb actually looks like in 3 dimensions? Next time I tear into a feral hive I will be looking for this, but if the combs are full, it will be difficult to tell what way they go.

Reply:
No, because this line of questioning and reason has never been brought up before, nor the fact that there is maybe a proper way to position combs for reducing stress, positioned after the way the bees do it.How it got overlooked all these years is beyond me with all us beekeepers! 

You finished writing:
I admit it is a very tempting theory which explains a lot of bee behaviour we have all observed. Combs that the bees don't want to draw, etc.

Reply:
Well, we went ahead and repositioned with an imaginary center line and all Y down facing towards center. It stopped most all nuisance stress problems it seems within our colonies. And here all these years we thought we knew bees well, moving frames as we saw and found problems to correct them. 
Sidewise or as last resort turning them around. 

Now we just look at the bottom of cell and position according to the Y and it is done, and beforehand now set up. 

Cannot wait for our first whole active season to really observe the differences. So far it is amazing at the benefits to be gained.

Also to watch and study with the coming season, all the feral combs especially in the open hanging now, I can get my hands on for sure.

What a great learning experience! Just how do the bees make the turn? There has to be one if in large outside hives the outside at both ends are Y up for protection. But how have the bees solved the problem?

Well, we studied the math for years to get the bottoms for manufacturer. Now, I guess we study the positioning to position by Housel Positioning, for relief of stress, etc.

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I said: Maybe this is irrelavant since we have no way with foundation to create this center piece of comb.
Acutally you could put two peices of foundation in the same frame and face them oppisite directions but I don't know that it's a good idea.

>No, because this line of questioning and reason has never been brought up before, nor the fact that there is maybe a proper way to position combs for reducing stress, positioned after the way the bees do it.How it got overlooked all these years is beyond me with all us beekeepers! 

I remember well the first time I put in foundation and being concerned that there was a right side up or up side down. I saw that there was a right and left but the significance of that seemed irrelevant, it was just how the geometry works out when you reinforce the comb by putting the vertices of the opposite side in the center. And of course none of my reading indicated that it mattered.

>And here all these years we thought we knew bees well, moving frames as we saw and found problems to correct them. 
Sidewise or as last resort turning them around. 

Looking back I new realize how many times I resolved problems like that by turning the frames around, but it was not because of my perception of orientation, but just an attemtp to get things back on track with a drawn comb next to one that was not going right.


>Now we just look at the bottom of cell and position according to the Y and it is done, and beforehand now set up. 

Do you mark the ends of the frames or something to keep them straight after they are drawn, filled and possibly capped and the "Y is no longer visible?

>Also to watch and study with the coming season, all the feral combs especially in the open hanging now, I can get my hands on for sure.

I'm thinking of starting a domestic one in the spring with a blank sheet of starter on the frames and see what the bees build. Then if I can steal the center frame, extract it and fill it full of plaster I should be able to see how it's made.


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Michael,

You wrote:
>Now we just look at the bottom of cell and position according to the Y and it is done, and beforehand now set up. 

Do you mark the ends of the frames or something to keep them straight after they are drawn, filled and possibly capped and the "Y is no longer visible?

reply:
So far no, trying to get into habit of holding up fast to sky to see those few cells available to identify position, and then back into colonies. However, probably should mark with < open to center facing for future reference before combs get any older and I get blind.

You also wrote:
I'm thinking of starting a domestic one in the spring with a blank sheet of starter on the frames and see what the bees build. Then if I can steal the center frame, extract it and fill it full of plaster I should be able to see how it's made.

Reply:
Only problem is if in confined area I don't think they will position and align like on solid limb out in open on tree. This is scenario Housel and I were chatting about that got us to change our frames around to fine tune them. 

So far this week found with ranches help now 5 wild swarms to cut out of cavities to check light alignment against the position of the combs as I cut out. 

Still waiting to have ranchers help me find some good hangers with comb outside with light all around to cut down and check. Need several to do to see what I find.

How you for swarms in your area for checking outside?

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So far no, trying to get into habit of holding up fast to sky to see those few cells available to identify position, and then back into colonies. However, probably should mark with < open to center facing for future reference before combs get any older and I get blind.

It would be nice if "we beekeepers" came up with a convention of marking so we could all keep it straight. a < open to the cneter facing out seems like as good as any. I was also considering putting it on the right end so I don't even have to look at the direction. Then a hive full of properly aligned frames would have the first five frames marked on my right and the last five on the left.

>Only problem is if in confined area I don't think they will position and align like on solid limb out in open on tree. This is scenario Housel and I were chatting about that got us to change our frames around to fine tune them. 

If the bees prefer to have a center comb, I wouldn't think it would matter to the bees what they are in. I've raised them in all kinds of boxes and they never seem to care. I was just going to make a blank sheet for the starter comb. I suppose I could put a single frame in a observation hive with a blank strip and see if they draw it facing both ways. That way it IS the center.

>How you for swarms in your area for checking outside?

All the swarms around here have been from my hives.









BTW I have had a few of those wild black bees (three of them to be exact) move into my observation hive. Now that I can study them and move them around in the light, I can see the dark reddish black band on them. I'm intrigued that they seem to be the same in such diverse locations.

I am thinking of trying to locate their hive. I'm guessing I have a general idea where they must be based on the direction they fly and the only woods within a mile in that direction.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hello Everyone,

I just checked my backyard hive which has been reorganized to reflect Housel postioning.

The bees have centered the broodnest and any new laying on the projected center of the hive. Normally they move to the warm side at this time of year.

Dennis


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## Hook (Jun 2, 2002)

I find this positioning most interesting. Its late here in PA, but I recently removed a hive from a barn, and I checked some of the combs that I removed, by piecing them together, and the theory proves correct. I know, I was told years ago, that if the bees did not draw out comb right just to turn the frame around, but never knew why. In the spring, I am going to mark all the frames with a "Y" and an "I" that I put together, and see how it works. Will be interesting to see.

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Dale Richards
Dal-Col Apiaries
Drums, PA


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

I just mark mine by sticking a drawing pin in the side of the top bar which should face inwards. I already use drawing pins for marking the year the foundation is drawn, and the few plastic combs I have, so its an extension of what I was already doing.

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Regards,

Robert Brenchley

[email protected]
Birmingham UK


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would assume by the context that a "drawing pin" is something we silly Americans might call a thumb tack? Is it colored on the end? Is it flat? That's my best guess, so you use different colors to represent years? Like the standard ones for queen marking? I am marking mine to keep track of if it was a starter strip or a full frame of foundation and if it was a first regression or a second. I suppose I could represent all of that with a couple of thumb tacks. Sounds like a good idea.


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Hi all

Thought I'd say since it came up on the OrganicBeekeepers list that when positioning feral combs into swarm ketching frames to remember that there is a Y up and a Y down side as well as a top and bottom or up and down side to note also. 

So make sure the cell walls lay sloping up and not down.

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

A drawing pin is probably a thumb tack. It's a nail about 1/2 inch long with a big head so you can push it in with your thumb; it's used to put things on notice boards and the like. I colour the heads with queen marking paint to show the year; you can get coloured ones but I don't bother.

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Regards,

Robert Brenchley

[email protected]
Birmingham UK


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Hi Michael, Robert, Hook and all:

Well, I've found my first two center combs on different cut-outs from containers and still have word out to the ranchers to find me more cutouts/cutdowns to hive and look at while mounting on swarm ketching frames.

I Put the one in the freezer (2nd one I saw) to preserve 3-4 inches of the combs hanging down from the lid until I can now get my video camera set up in spare time to document the inside of the cells to show. Figured I cannot lay combs on scanner for anyone can lay combs on scanner and take pictures. I cannot just shot a photo with regular camera as three combs would have different distances. So I guess I got to get the old video camera out and shoot all three frames at once and then zero in on the center comb and the bottom of the cells to show the positioning.

Believe it or not it is a non-directional setup with both sides being the same and lets bees orientate to the light from all angles and sides. The bees are so smart. Another hint of them being intelligent building combs this way.

Once I start videoing I can then try to get as many cut outs as I can rounded up, feeling at least 6 are needed to prove point that there is indeed a center. So far I got two and feel quite comfortable I will find more now as the looking goes on with ranchers help. Have all fall and winter to play with this.

Also once documentated, then I can update the talk and paper I did when I was just getting going and we were repositioning our combs in our domestic colonies to the Housel Positioning Michael recommended for use in domestic colonies. 

So far domestic colonies are doing great and I see no reason not to continue, now seeing the non-directional center combs the bees are building.

It's a perfect way to manage domestic colonies for a living, breathing, pulsating, broodnest, that moves up and down with the active beekeeping season for production of honey and pollen.

Will keep you all posted.

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby


[This message has been edited by Dee A. Lusby (edited October 15, 2002).]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The only way I can see it can be non-directional is if the vertecies of the other sides line up instead of being in the center of the cell on the opposite side. Then there would be no "Y" upside down or otherwise. Is this the case?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Hi Dee -

Can you explain more exactly what type of enclosure these combs were from? You say "cut-outs from containers." Are you referring to your paper-pulp bait hives that are used all around Tucson as swarm traps which get dropped off to you?

I remember watching you do a cut-out when I was there http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/trip/35.htm and noticed that these lids have queen pheromone lures attached to the center of them. Might this not have an influence on the bees and how they build their combs/nest? Could it effect where the bees determine center? Could the partial combs that are left on the lids for bait have an influence?

Regards,
Barry

[This message has been edited by Barry (edited October 15, 2002).]


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

To Michael Bush and Barry Birkey

Answer for Michael:

No!

Answers for Barry:

No!

Comb and lid in freezer. Come on down and see. I will video all from here on out and store in freezer the evidence where necessary. 

This lid perfect, no precomb hanging down with new white comb in this case built. It is not old comb but brand new.

As I get over I would say 6 cases or more as I have only two now I will probably get more serious then what I am now. already showed to many locally. 

Have a few coming in to see from out-of-state to see also from here in USA.

The one sample lid in freezer is "Perfect" non-directional and yes Ys are on both sides.

ONce I get over 6 on video with pattern emerging with bees I will go into more detail. Right now though any one coming in person can see.

Getting plenty of cutout calls now on ranches. Shall be a full winter filming, and yes Barry, I will send you a copy when I get over 6 on film and since I got 2 out of 2 now with luck it shouldn't be too long.

Got a cut out tomorrow in hedge with light all around. Shall be interesting to see.

Now I know what to look for I can go back through swarm ketching frames already mounted to see what already on hand and not melted down waiting for melting pot.

Regards,

Dee


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I look forward to hearing what you find out.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Dee -

So the "no" reply is in regards to "precomb" but yes to pheromone vial and lids from swarm bait hives. Okay, We'll wait for film to see more details. Having looked again over the comb from a swarm cut-out in eaves, I did find another cell position.

Is this the cell orientation you are seeing with the 4 rhombs at the cell bottom?

Regards,
Barry


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is this the cell orientation you are seeing with the 4 rhombs at the cell bottom?

This is a great picture! And it shows where the three pieces in the bottom come from. The are from the cell on the opposite side. This is the mystery that I don't understand. The "Y" on this center comb must not be from the shape of the opposite side (as it is in all other combs) or it would have to be reversed on the other side. If it is indeed not reversed on the other side then both sides must be lined up and it's from the shape of the bottom of the cell. I would be really interested in filling a piece with plaster and then doing a cross section of it to see how the opposite sides line up. Looks like I'll have to wait for next summer to get any.







I'll have to start some on plain wax strips and see what they do.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Not that I have a better plan with current foundation than you are already suggesting, but do you think the bees orient on this double sided comb? If so, don't you think they will be better oriented if there was one? What would happen if you lined up two embossing wheels so the front and back were aligned? Would it just make the wax thicker in the bottom of the cells? Would it be the same as this center comb? Also, what if you put a double sheet of foundation in the center frame? What would happen if you did Housel positioning and put a blank, not embossed starter strip in the center? Would the bees want a center comb enough to build one? For answers to these and other interesting questions, stay tuned to this board!










[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited October 17, 2002).]


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Michael wrote:
Not that I have a better plan with current foundation than you are already suggesting, but do you think the bees orient on this double sided comb?

Reply:
Yes, seem to very well from what I have seen so far.

If so, don't you think they will be better oriented if there was one? What would happen if you lined up two embossing wheels so the front and back were aligned?

Reply:
Yes, probably better if there where one, but also finding it not necessary with imaginary center positioned.

Already looked at the possibility of aligning up to embossing wheels as I have more then one mill here I use. It is a no-go thing that takes labor and still not imprinted right.


Would it just make the wax thicker in the bottom of the cells? Would it be the same as this center comb?

Reply:
Both. Thicker and not the same. already looked.

Also, what if you put a double sheet of foundation in the center frame? What would happen if you did Housel positioning and put a blank, not embossed starter strip in the center? Would the bees want a center comb enough to build one? 

Reply:

With the lid I froze and by the way I now have another in the freezer. The first with three combs and the second with 5 combs hanging down from the lid showing the center alignment, the Y is not exactly positioned the same as I wrote after talking to Michael on the center positioning of Ys down on both. This was because darkened comb was looked at and with the sides facing in we assumed the bees centered with the middle with Ys down on each. But I posted already here I got and see some center combs with blanks and Ys laying with mouths on tails or 4 rhombs.These are bees trying to go with a center positioning, but not actually quite there.

Now the two I got in freezer now are "perfect" and with Ys, and not 4 rhombs, and are non-directional and same on both sides for the way the bees use the cells, with roofs and ledges, Michael.

The center comb is complete opposite to the other combs positioned by 90 degrees and answers the claim that some see the parallel walls differnet in position, for the position is the same as claimed seen facing another way by others.

But they are not talking center frames, but they are noting the change in the parallel walls for what they are seeing, which I find strange.Yet I can see this happening as in cutting out the combs and not watching the Ys and where cutting from, it is easy to lose the center frame, especially if not noting it to begin with, and it can then be placed elsewhere in the colony in any position for it is non-directional and universal.

So simple the way the bees solved it Michael.

You can easily have the center frame for your bees. That way you can have say 10 combs or frames in broodnest and also 9 frames or combs in the honeysupers if this is what you want. Or just use 9 or 11 frames or still with imaginary just use 10. 

All the while just position with "Housel Positioning" for the comb/frame alignment to keep the bees less stressed and happy and not burring and overlaying combs, bulging combs etc.

Michael simply do a 90 degree with your foundation and look. It makes it non-directional. It makes a center comb! Then cut foundation and use for whole frames to start! It's so easy. 

I have seen several now this way now that I looking, but have saved two in freezer. Mainly because in cutting out ferals you get cut lines on all sides and the two I saved do not have this.This way no one can say I cut and turned the comb for it is hanging perfect with the combs from the lids and the center is so strikingly different but the same and non-directional.True center combs and white wax and uniform cell size and small and just beautiful to look at.

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby



[This message has been edited by Dee A. Lusby (edited October 20, 2002).]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Thanks for the info.

So the center comb has a flat side at the top and bottom instead of a peak and a valley? That's what I get if I rotate a piece of foundation 90 degrees. And then the "Y" is neither right side up nor upside down, it is ****ed on an angle.

Anyway, I just finished doing your standard Housel positioning on all of my hives. I've been waiting for a nice warm day when I wasn't at work all day.







It was a bit tricky when sometimes the comb wasn't full all the way across or it was really thick on one side and thin on the other and one needed to be switched, but I juggled them around until it all came out right.

I also had some weak hives and I put them on top of a double screen over a strong one. We'll see how that works.

In the spring I still think I'll make some blank sheets (not embossed) and do starter strips on some new hives and see what they do.

Also I have a three frame observation hive. I think If I put a blank sheet in there they will have to think it's the center if the hive is only one frame wide.


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Michael wrote:
So the center comb has a flat side at the top and bottom instead of a peak and a valley?

Reply:
Yes, the tail of the Y splits the center of the cell horizontal with the top vearing up and out for a slanted roof and the bottom ledge vearing down and out for a slanted ledge. the Y goes off to the side and becomes somewhat neutral.

That's what I get if I rotate a piece of foundation 90 degrees. And then the "Y" is neither right side up nor upside down, it is ****ed on an angle.

Reply:
Yes, it is laying down and the parallel walls then become horizontal instead of vertical, like you sometimes hear written in old books. But they do not talk of where these odd combs sporadically seen are placed within the structures of the comb and broodnest of the bees themselves.


Anyway, I just finished doing your standard Housel positioning on all of my hives. I've been waiting for a nice warm day when I wasn't at work all day. It was a bit tricky when sometimes the comb wasn't full all the way across or it was really thick on one side and thin on the other and one needed to be switched, but I juggled them around until it all came out right.

Reply:
This is good. I think they will overwinter better for you for they will not one side and then get starved for too big a gap to cross to get to honey on the other side maybe. They should have more freedom to pull stores of pollen and honey from all directions now.

Also if condensentation occurrs and then it freezes, it will be to the walls more and they will be in the center more away from that.

I also had some weak hives and I put them on top of a double screen over a strong one. We'll see how that works.

Reply:
That should work fine with the heat from below helping to warm the weaker ones above. The only thing to note and watch here will be the tendency of the upper weaker to brood more and need thus more stores!! But it is more easily gotten to to feed and help. Normally by spring, the weaker on top ketch up in strength with the bottom ones doing most of the heating work.

In the spring I still think I'll make some blank sheets (not embossed) and do starter strips on some new hives and see what they do.

Reply:
They should draw comb fine and you will have enjoyment in watching them.

Also I have a three frame observation hive. I think If I put a blank sheet in there they will have to think it's the center if the hive is only one frame wide.

Reply:
May and may not. While I am finding the center in many hives now I looking, it is not in all, but it seems to be running 50/50 for the most part. Anyway I hope they do it for you and you get to see it. If they do they will either be in a learning mode or do it perfect. Hope it's the perfect one!

Regards,

Dee A. Lusby


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hello Dee and Everyone,

Would a front rear orientation be seen on the center comb?

Dennis
Thinking an elephant must be like a tree:> )

Dee wrote:
>The center comb is complete opposite to the other combs positioned by 90 degrees and answers the claim that some see the parallel walls differnet in position, for the position is the same as claimed seen facing another way by others.


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Dennis wrote:
Would a front rear orientation be seen on the center comb?

Dennis
Thinking an elephant must be like a tree:> )

Reply:
Explain what you mean by this please. What is a 'front rear' compared to an elephant?

Sincerely,

Dee A. Lusby


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The blind men and the elephant story is an old Buddist proverb (once written down by Rudyard Kipling and others) Here's a link to the gist of it. http://www.co-intelligence.org/blindmenelephant.html#buddhist 

The point is each blind man has a hold of one little piece of the elephant but has not idea of the whole thing. They all think they know what an elephant is, and one thinks it's a tree.


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