# Goners...



## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Hi Dug
If your hives are that light I would definately put the granulated sugar on a sheet of newspaper right over the top of the frames like mountaincamp shows. It is cheaper to buy some sugar than buying some packages.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I would try the sugar. My bees seem to stay up all winter long. Having said that, I have one hive that went into the fall very light. Fed and fed and fed, but it barely gained weight. I might have lost it by now. Time will tell. If I see any activity, I'll have sugar on the frames real quick.


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## dug_6238 (May 9, 2007)

*Trying MountainCamp's approach...*

OK, here 'tis.









These are weak colonies. I have two others that are slightly stronger that I'm going to try this on too...I think my two weakest just may not be a fair test. Anyway, I think the idea has merit. I'll post updated photos/news later down the road.
-Doug


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## bleta12 (Feb 28, 2007)

Hi Doug, 

Nice picture. What if the bees want to read the other side of your sport page, the side that is facing the sugar? I hope they have a small hole in the paper, sprinkling some water may help.

Gilman


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

bleta12 said:


> What if the bees want to read the other side of your sport page


Now, everyone knows that girls don't read the sport section......just kidding ladies!!!!


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## dug_6238 (May 9, 2007)

*Wrong way...*

You're right...Dag-nabbit, I meant to have the Steeler article facing down...


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Doug, Good luck with them. Are they in a sunny location and wrapped? The felt paper wrap will give them some wind protection, but will add solar gain. This solar gain will add external heat to the hive and allow them to cluster looser and access stores.
Check them often to assess their condition and adjust as needed.
The paper and sugar should get wet quickly from the moisture in the hive. 
But, sprinkling a little syrup on the paper, sugar and exposed top bars will get the working faster.

Here are some pictures from Jon L of his hives recently http://s268.photobucket.com/albums/jj21/hyptno99/ 

This is from his post in the feeders thread:http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215085&page=2

Again, Good Luck


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## dug_6238 (May 9, 2007)

*"MountainCamp Method"*

This is actually going pretty well. Neither colony has worked their way through the pile yet, but they're still alive. I had a robbing problem last week when we got that warm spell, so I reduced the entrance on the one hive, which didn't allow a lot of ventilation. I went back over today and noticed a little bit of frost. I pulled the paper back which should allow the warm vapor to rise around the sugar pile.


















Hopefully opening the entrance up a bit helped a bit, along with pulling the paper back a bit. When I scraped the entrance clear, I noticed this:










The two small brown carcasses aren't anything to worry about, right?

This is one of my two weaker hives that I'm trying to limp along using the MountainCamp Method.

Please also see my other thread on my question about "tight clusters" and whether I need to feed my other heavy colony.

THANKS!
-Doug

PS - SORRY! I forgot to mention, all nine colonies are still alive at this point. I'm happy so far, especially if I can save these light colonies and the one heavy colony with a cluster up high...I've not yet added sugar to the two other light colonies because the clusters are both stillin the bottom boxes.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>I had a robbing problem last week when we got that warm spell . . .

"wunder" if it was robbing (in winter????) or normal "winter flight" used by bees to "create yellow specks" in the snow


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## dug_6238 (May 9, 2007)

*Activity was noticably more agressive*

Yeah, I wondered at first but then I spent some time watching. The entrance was choked with bees trying to drag others (live and kicking) away, many were fighting, and the overall demeanor matched all the videos I've seen from this site and YouTube showing robbing. Even the roar from inside was more frantic than the other 5 hives at this site. I wish I would have filmed the activity at the entrance to have posted it, but I'm willing to wage a paycheck saying it was robbing.

The weather ?last Tuesday? reached into the 60s. It really was quite nice. This is a pretty weak hive in terms of numbers, so I could understand the other hives around it jumping at the opportunity.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I set them all of with the sugar and paper. At the very least it helps with the moisture and condensate.
If they are light and there are no stores in the upper box, they will not move up - no reason to.
If you set the paper and sugar, they can use it during breaks in the cold weather, or move up and cluster on it.
Glad to hear they are still going. Good luck,


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## dug_6238 (May 9, 2007)

*Limping along*

This same light colony is still limping along, and I'm still 9 for 9. There are a few spots inside the hive and on the sugar, but they're still buzzing. I can't tell how large the cluster is, but they've made it a lot longer than I expected them to. The top of the cluster showing through the feed is more active than most of my other colonies


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Actually what I saw in the 1st. picture looked like new white bridge comb being built up to the feeder. That would indicate that colony has enough bees and heat to be building comb so might not be as bad off as you think. When ever I top feed in the winter with Syrup I always feed small amounts (quarts) of warm syrup which they will take more readily than a gallon of cold feed.

Looks like quite a few bees working the sugar in the 2nd picture. The bees look clean and healthy. I suspect you may be better off than you think and am hoping you'll come through Okay. Just keep feeding!

If you suspect robbing and haven't reduced the entrance now would be a good time.

You should schedule their dental exams early in the spring with all that sugar


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## dug_6238 (May 9, 2007)

*Goners Last Update*

This was the weakest of all my hives and it finally died off during the last ultra-cold-snap. I'd have to look back at the calendar to verify the weekend they died off, I didn't get around to posting this right away. My other colonies that I'm feeding are doing well.

I'll include some observations here followed by some photos.

- gap between sugar cap and top bars, some dead bees on top bars
- small drones present, roughly same size as workers
- capped drone cells in brood area
- partially torn down supercedure cell
- very small number of bees, very small dead cluster, queen present
- only 4 frame faces contained bees
- bees dead, headfirst in cells
- cappings throughout hive chewed off roughly
- robbing noticed at this hive over the last couple months, many dead bees being hauled out after robbing, many dead in feeder attic

Links to photos:
Sugar cap, top of dead cluster
Robbed Comb
Robbed Comb Closeup
Queen Cell Remnant
Cluster and Brood Area
Cluster with Ruler
Cluster with Queen
Queen

It is my belief that there was a late fall supercedure in an already weak colony (hit by bear in the summer), and the new queen was not well mated. This and small population spelled their doom, even with a sugar cap. This small of a cluster could also not bridge the gap between the top bars and the sugar cap. If I had knocked down the sugar cap so that it was in contact with the top bars, maybe, but I think it's doubtful with the small size of the cluster. This hive had been having problems getting robbed out, and I think that probably hurt their population in general as well. This should be evidenced by the condition of the combs and cappings in the photos.

Numbers were never good in this hive since they took the bear hit. I forgot to respond to Joel's comment - the small comb that you saw under the jar in the first photos was a little chunk of comb honey that I put there in hopes that they would cluster up over it in the late fall to the feeder jar.

I think this one was not meant to bee. I may still send a sample to Beltsville, but I think there's actually a lot here to go on already.

My other hives that I'm feeding, as well as my other strong hives are confirmed doing well today. The MountainCamp Method has saved at least one (possibly more) of my other hives. I'm kind of excited for Spring.


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## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

I'm sorry to hear about it. That cluster looks about like the one that was in the I hive I gave some brood to last week. 

Strengthening a Weak Colony

I checked them today and they are definitely doing better. 

Strengthening a Weak Colony Part 2

If I would not have helped them out I would have had another dead out.

What to do with a dead-out?


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Dug,
Sorry to hear that the last cold snap did this colony in. 
I guess the good news is that you still have 8 colonies going and you can do a few splits to build more colonies.

Good luck this spring,
Scott


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

And...we thank you for the pics and the info. I learned a lot and I appreciate it.


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## mduncan (Mar 13, 2008)

OK....I have one of those questions that I have been too embarrased to ask for years. So here goes. When you open up the hive to pour in the sugar (like mountaincamps system), what keeps the bees form loosing all their heat and freezing?

Here is where the question comes from....I live in central ohio. The bees have let me be their keeper for about 7 years now. Like most, I started w/ one hive....up to six now. Our winters get relatively cold. Low teens, 20's but not like up north or in the mountains of anywhere else...but cold enough. At the start of my 2nd year beekeeping I opened my hive in about 50 degree weather to check on the girls. I was only in there about 3-4 minutes...everything looked fine so I closed up and went on my business. Couple of days later we had an unusually warm 70 degree day so I went back to check....everyone is dead. Local bee inspector told me I'd probably frozen them out when I went in too early.

Everything I've read, everyone I've talked to says that if you have light stores this time of year you can supplement w/ raw sugar. Someone in this post even mentions getting into their hive to put in sugar on a 36 degree day. So, how on earth are you supposed to put sugar in on that cold of a day and not freeze the colony?

I am real skitish about opening the hive too early. I hate screwing up something by being a stupid human......mduncan


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## dug_6238 (May 9, 2007)

*Not freezing*



mduncan said:


> OK....When you open up the hive to pour in the sugar (like mountaincamps system), what keeps the bees form loosing all their heat and freezing?
> 
> ...I opened my hive in about 50 degree weather to check on the girls. I was only in there about 3-4 minutes...everything looked fine so I closed up and went on my business. Couple of days later we had an unusually warm 70 degree day so I went back to check....everyone is dead. Local bee inspector told me I'd probably frozen them out when I went in too early.
> 
> Someone in this post even mentions getting into their hive to put in sugar on a 36 degree day. So, how on earth are you supposed to put sugar in on that cold of a day and not freeze the colony?


mduncan,
When you're opening up the hive the heat loss is of reasonable concern but if done on a limited basis it can still be ok. Remember you're just popping the top to take a quick look, not breaking the cluster. If you do have to add feed in this manner, you should still not disturb the cluster. I can have mine added in just about a minute if needed, and I never move a frame. 

There are plenty of threads on this site dealing with hive temperatures, and even some showing infrared. While the inside of the box will likely be warmer than the outside, the whole box is still not heated to the same temp as the inside of the cluster. Opening the box would not freeze the colony if done quickly. Just don't distrub them too much, don't rile them so they break cluster, and be quick about it, and it's fine. I wouldn't encourage going in below that temp though if it can be avoided.

I also have to say that I've popped the tops on all my hives every few weeks to check to see if the cluster has reached the inner cover. This isn't an issue - I mean we give them upper entrances anyway, so this really is ok if not done too often, if not left open too long, if not done when windy, etc.

I have to say that you didn't kill your bees by popping the top just to look in, even if it was for 3 to 4 minutes. My bees (as do yours) endure winters where the ambient temperature inside the box stays way way below that temperature, sometimes for months at a time. It's impossible to imagine killing all the bees in a hive by freezing in 50 degree weather. Don't be hard on yourself, you weren't the cause there.

Hope everyone's faring well this time of year, I'm eager to see more photos from you all as well,
-Doug


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