# At a loss...I just don't understand



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Sorry to hear about your situation.

First off, of course, _I don't know what is the problem is._


It is my opinion, though, that a focus on _keeping bees warm_ in cold winters leads to more condensation issues in the hive than necessary. Dry bees can handle cold if they have honey/sugar to fuel themselves. But 'wet' bees cannot keep themselves warm even with food. Ventilation to get rid of humid air is necessary, and may not be given enough attention by some beekeepers.


One thing that is not mentioned in your post is varroa. Varroa is a threat to most hives in North America. You may choose not to treat to control varroa, but you should at least consider that bees _weakened _by varroa may have a difficult time dealing with other less significant threats. Obviously, no one can say from afar that varroa led to your hives demise, but consider what steps you took or considered taking to evaluate the effects of varroa in your hives.


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Sorry to hear about your situation.
> 
> First off, of course, _I don't know what is the problem is._
> 
> ...


Thank you for the responce. 

As far as I can tell our bees are exposd to the cold but not the winds which we thought was the problem. After they are dead we inspect them and they just appear to be "frozen in time". All there hives should have proper ventialtion. They are just regular hives not rapped in anything. We do feed FUMAGILIN-B in the fall. 

Is there anything else we could look for or feed medication wise?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Well, Fumagillin is a nosema control: http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documents/CAPArticle6.html

I am not aware that Fumagillin has any use in varroa control.



Treating for varroa can be a controversial issue - two links for more info:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#varroa
- and -
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fighting-varroa-the-silver-bullet-or-brass-knuckles-2/


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

fumagilin is for nosema, not mites recent results from Ontario question wether it is a good idea to use this except for emergency situations... you must monitor for mites on a regular basis. there are many treatments available. usda just approved oxalic acid this is real effective, low cost and leaves no residue not found naturaly in the hive. radars answer above is quite good. cold is not the killer for healthy bees. condensation, lack of food and bees weakened by mites and associated virus problems are the common problems. the further north you are the lower the tolerance to mites. at this point all bees have mites, the question is how many.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Raders question about varroa is possibly of quite some importance. Also things you do in the previous fall to assure that new healthy _young_ bees are the main makeup of the population of the colony going into winter. The mature foraging bees in the fall will not survive the time span of winter. Frozen bees may have died from old age! Young healthy dry bees seldom freeze to death. You say there was plenty of honey left but where was it in relation to the clusters? Are you wintering on double deeps and how much did your hives weigh in the fall? When did you pull the last honey?

A small cluster getting stuck on brood and failing to move to new stores does happen when a long cold snap follows an early spring but I dont think that has been the pattern this year. I am about 200 miles north of you and have had no winter losses in 3 years but still a bit early to count this year.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

I am also thinking mites. Did you notice stunted abdomens? Mite's white excrement buildup in cells? How is your ventilation? Do you have a hole at the top to vent warm, moist air? There is such a thing as starvation and cold starvation....... two different things. One is not enough food and they starved. The other is they couldn't or wouldn't move to the food due to cold (or trying to save brood) and thus starved. 

There was an old thread (a few years ago) that was specific as to a hive autopsy. I don't have that link. You can't correct the problem unless you know what it is. 

This year we had a bad winter, but I think our problem was the bees plugged up the comb so much they didn't have a place to cluster in and between comb. 

Mites have to be kept in control early enough in the season so that they have young bees to overwinter.

Don't give up. Work on mite control this season coming up. Evaluate your ventilation for winter and make any necessary changes. Quilt boxes help with moisture. 
Good luck.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Sounds to me like starvation. MITES usually contribute by reducing the size and vigor of the clusters. Next season consider treating your mites with api guard or apivar, both work well I am finding. Put a 2 1/2 inch deep feeder rim on top and put a couple sheets of wet newspaper on top of the frames and slowly pour on ten pounds of white sugar. That will end virtually all starvation losses. I treated less than half my bees for mites and lost one of those to starvation.

My supposedly mite resistent bloodlines/small cell/ with brood breaks and good intentions saw close to 35 percent loss.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

how big are your clusters in terms of frame counts.


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## RudyT (Jan 25, 2012)

You might consider taking a sample of the bees and sendin them to Beltsville Maryland USDA bee lab for analysis.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

what is in the feeder at the bottom? if it is syrup then that won't be warm enough and they could freeze trying to use it. 

many people use dry sugar on top of the frames of the top box to help with moisture and emergency food.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Some of my hives did not get treated with Fumagilin in the fall, some did. I will not be repeating that experiment again, all will be treated from now on. The results with the untreated hives were very bad.

Feed at the top, not at the bottom. Warm air rises, when it is very cold the bees don't/can't go to the bottom to feed.

Insulate the hives, at least a little. I use 3/4" rigid panels with a black, corrugated plastic jacket. The system is designed with a framework at the bottom to help support it and a larger-than-normal insulated outer cover fits over the top and goes down over the insulation and jackets. There is an upper entrance hole in the outer cover and the insulation and jackets are notched to allow use of the entrance hole in the inner cover. The inner cover is flipped to its winter position that allows space for feeding, the center hole is unplugged and a moisture absorbing board is placed over it. There is a grove in the board from the center out to a corresponding notch in the rim of the inner cover to provide extra ventilation. The entrance hole below the notch is also open. The bottom entrance is reduced. Some folks around here also drill an extra hole off-center about 1/2 way up the lower deep (with corresponding holes in the insulation and jackets) to allow for the event of the lower entrance being blocked by snow.

Mites- even if everything else is OK, but the mites are out of control, then the bees may be screwed.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

My wintered colonies currently range from wall to wall to 2 1/2 -3 frames. I will start equalizing numbers by swapping colonies around mid day. I am not ready to start swapping frames of brood.


JRG13 said:


> how big are your clusters in terms of frame counts.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Varroa mites.

Sorry to hear about your losses. Whenever a beek posts about large losses, and the description of the situation doesn't mention some strategy to deal with mites, whether that strategy involves treating or non-treating, the safe bet is that varroa mites is the underlying problem.


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

If you could provide some photos of a full frame with and without bees and maybe some close up of brood cells these guys might be able to offer some diagnosis?


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## epowers777 (Feb 24, 2015)

Look up NWNJBA on YouTube. They have a class thats like and hr or 2 and they talk about a triple deep hive with the third box is a honey dome. 60lbs of honey I think. This honey dome helps with heat cause NJ gets super cold. Hope this helps. Sorry about your loss.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Michbeekeeper said:


> Is there anything else we could look for or feed medication wise?


Classic answers. To me it seems that you have to consider how you are managing your operation/hives due to the consistent losses? One of which could be managing/treating for mites, or not. Since I am not familiar with, or have ever feed Fumagillin, I would start there, especially if you are feeding it regularly for? Have you seen symptoms of? I would imagine coldness is the least of your issues. Check out a thread started by C10250, "Why I have never lost an over-wintered hive,,", might have some good "comparative" information:scratch: Additionally, who doesn't like to see pictures of bees?


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

Since you stated that the bees were all alive a few weeks ago and doing great AND your observation hive is low on stores, I'm guessing they starved. Without pics that's the only thing we can do... guess.
Most bees that stave to death do so in March. There is no nectar for them to gather and no food available in the hive.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

epowers777 said:


> This honey dome helps with heat cause NJ gets super cold.


NJ? "Super" cold?

Bwahahahaha! NJ don't know cold, nor you, apparently 

Spend a couple of winters here, or better yet, up there in Ontario. 

Snowed most of the weekend here. Good thing I haven't taken the chains and plow off the truck yet...maybe I'll take them off, oh, the first week of May.

"Honey dome", huh? Get that offa youtube didja? First time I've heard the term used for that. But, they don't letcha post it on the webz if it ain't true, right?


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

Thank you all so much for your response!! The hive are currently at me parents house so I'm not able to get pictures. Hopefully I can get some this weekend. I totally understand what you all think is happening. I guess I never really realized how big of a problem mites were. I though if you had them it was not good but totally dependent on treating. I talked to my brother about your suggestions and what a surprise he doesn't agree with anyone. Take it with a grain of salt as he always thinks he knows and never what's to admit failure. If I get my own hive I will be sparing now expense to treat them for what ever they may get. I think there is a great deal of information for both of us to learn on here. Up until know like I said I have always been the heavy lifter. Both of us had know idea that inner covers had two directions. Once again thank you and keep any insight to what I can do maybe right now to prevent this last hive from following the same fate.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Michbeekeeper said:


> Thank you all so much for your response!! The hive are currently at me parents house so I'm not able to get pictures. Hopefully I can get some this weekend. I totally understand what you all think is happening. I guess I never really realized how big of a problem mites were. I though if you had them it was not good but totally dependent on treating. I talked to my brother about your suggestions and what a surprise he doesn't agree with anyone. Take it with a grain of salt as he always thinks he knows and never what's to admit failure. If I get my own hive I will be sparing now expense to treat them for what ever they may get. I think there is a great deal of information for both of us to learn on here. Up until know like I said I have always been the heavy lifter. Both of us had know idea that inner covers had two directions. Once again thank you and keep any insight to what I can do maybe right now to prevent this last hive from following the same fate.


What is your brothers insights? Failure is part of life, get up, dust your frames off, & learn from the experience. Consistent yearly loses would have me checking/looking for some common factors. All hives have mites. I don't find this to be absolute, "I though if you had them it was not good but totally dependent on treating."


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

My take... get your own hives started and show "Bro" how it's done.


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## AL from Georgia (Jul 14, 2014)

If you are not controlling varroa mites somehow, you should quit wasting your money. No matter how you approach the problem, varroa must be managed.


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

If I get some apivar strips is it fine to treat ASAP when it get's up in temp to open the hive? I see normally you treat before the spring/summer honey flow and after the fall going into winter.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Apivar should not be used if honey supers are present. Here is the info sheet/instructions: http://www.dadant.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/2011/09/Apivar-leaflet-EDITED-010413.pdf


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Michbeekeeper said:


> If I get some apivar strips is it fine to treat ASAP when it get's up in temp to open the hive? I see normally you treat before the spring/summer honey flow and after the fall going into winter.


We just opened our hives up this past Sunday. I'm guessing you guys are cooler than us, but this might be great OAV time. We got into our hives and found 4 of 5 had no capped brood (we didn't do 100% inspections so there might have been a minor amount somewhere). That is the perfect time to hit them with OAV. And you can probably find the stuff to do it at a local hardware store for about $15.

I bought a 1/2" copper "pressure chamber" and a 90* elbow. Cut the chamber in half and stick one end in each side of the 90. Then made an entrance reducer with a single hole in it for the copper tube. Pop that in, charge the pressure chamber with proper amount of oxalic acid, pop it into the hole, and heat it with a torch. I will probably either buy a vaporizer from SNL or make my own at some point this year. But this will get you by in a pinch, it's cheap, and it was effective. Here's the mite fall from a treatment I did in January when we had warm enough days (the bigger board). I did another treatment about a week after this and got some more mites, but no where near as many as the board in the picture. Did another this past weekend, left the sticky boards out this time, though.










These were on the board but fell off when the wind caught it.










My reason for treating was having enough weeks to stew on it... I got nervous that the single powdered sugar shake mite count I did in August wasn't a big enough data point (and I only did it on 3 of 5 hives). They all came back with 0, 1, and 2 mites. Did I shake hard enough? Long enough? Plenty of people on here will say "you won't know if they would have survived without it" and that kind of thing. I'll be able to sleep fine not knowing. All I know is that it seemed like the OAV killed a lot of mites (on one hive) and killed a decent number the second time as well. The biggest hive didn't have many mites drop, but they also seemed to upcap a fair number of brood later in the year. 

Ten thousand observations that I didn't necessarily think enough about until after the fact. 5 of 5 are alive at this point. Made lots of mistakes including feeding "too much" and giving them all a little bit of extra insurance sugar, too. Learned lots of lessons year 1... glad to be coming out with five hives to learn from in my first "real" spring with bees. I have one that I can already tell is going to be a challenge to prevent swarming in.


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

Oh man I think we are in for it. We have never treated for mites. Based on what has been mentioned what are everyone opinions on treating. I plan on doing it but what are the opinions on options. Is it better to go with OAV and take care of it more urgently since it's never been done or should I used the strips that take a "loner" time.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Michbeekeeper said:


> Oh man I think we are in for it. We have never treated for mites. Based on what has been mentioned what are everyone opinions on treating. I plan on doing it but what are the opinions on options. Is it better to go with OAV and take care of it more urgently since it's never been done or should I used the strips that take a "loner" time.


I can't speak to your specific situation, and I don't know the difference since I haven't used any except OAV. I'd guess treating would be prudent. If it isn't too late. If you can get a couple OAVs in before they get capped brood you might be able to turn the hive around.


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

I just ordered a OAV and some OA. I can''t wait to use it and get things back on track.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Michbeekeeper said:


> I just ordered a OAV and some OA. I can''t wait to use it and get things back on track.


Hope you get it quick, OA isn't effective on mites behind capped brood. Please give us an update when you get it!


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I correspond with a beekeeper in Calgary Alberta who put an apivar strip in her hives in February. All you need to do is stick one in the middle of the brood nest early in the spring. Pull it at 42 days or when you are going to super.


Michbeekeeper said:


> If I get some apivar strips is it fine to treat ASAP when it get's up in temp to open the hive? I see normally you treat before the spring/summer honey flow and after the fall going into winter.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> Hope you get it quick, OA isn't effective on mites behind capped brood. Please give us an update when you get it!


treat 3 times a week apart and you will get most of the mites with oav.


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## bean tree homestead (Nov 18, 2013)

Michbeekeeper said:


> I just ordered a OAV and some OA. I can''t wait to use it and get things back on track.



I appreciate your enthusiasm to get this problem whipped but I would recommend that you slow down and take the time to understand the problem. There are tons of website that cover varrora as a problem and have recommendations to deal with it. You need to learn about the life cycle of this mite and its behaviors and feeding habits and its reproductive cycle. OAV is not a bad choice in my opinion but you should also learn about IPM methods as well. SLOW down and take the time to learn about how and why this problem became a problem. The fact that you have been aiding in keeping Bees for 5 years and are only now learning about this issue should be a sign to you to read more.


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

varroa is on going problem. you are not going to treat once and solve the problem long term.


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

bean tree homestead said:


> I appreciate your enthusiasm to get this problem whipped but I would recommend that you slow down and take the time to understand the problem. There are tons of website that cover varrora as a problem and have recommendations to deal with it. You need to learn about the life cycle of this mite and its behaviors and feeding habits and its reproductive cycle. OAV is not a bad choice in my opinion but you should also learn about IPM methods as well. SLOW down and take the time to learn about how and why this problem became a problem. The fact that you have been aiding in keeping Bees for 5 years and are only now learning about this issue should be a sign to you to read more.


Thank you for your concern. However, the reason I'm not aware of most of this stuff is simply because I was assisting my brother for 5 years. Believe me I research things. I have over $5,000 into a saltwater fish tank. I just don't jump into things.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Michbeekeeper said:


> Thank you for your concern. However, the reason I'm not aware of most of this stuff is simply because I was assisting my brother for 5 years. Believe me I research things. I have over $5,000 into a saltwater fish tank. I just don't jump into things.


Oh no a fish tank guy. Sell it and ask for twice what you have into it like every other fish tank guy.


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## bean tree homestead (Nov 18, 2013)

I could not sale my brackish setup that I was putting together so... I just kept it. I still love puffers.


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

If you like research check out Randy Oliver website you can learn a lot about managing beehives and keeping bees alive.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michbeekeeper said:


> I just ordered a OAV and some OA. I can''t wait to use it and get things back on track.


Ah yeah the new bullet. I was going to suggest Stop baby siting your bees and let them have more honey. What have you got to loose? What is the origin of these bees?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Acebird said:


> What have you got to loose?


The {live} bees? 

How are _your _bees doing this spring, Ace?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> The {live} bees?
> 
> How are _your _bees doing this spring, Ace?


Spring, what the heck are you calling spring? The hive is two boxes taller but I haven't been out there yet.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Michbeekeeper said:


> ... However they will not go down to the feeder at the bottom. I'm looking for any advice on what could be going wrong and what else we could do short of using heaters to keep them alive through the winter.


This is probably going to sound dumb, so I apologize for asking, but are you feeding syrup in the winter? Do you know that bees cannot take syrup when the temperature falls below 50 degrees? A much better choice is a sugar block placed on the tops of the frames just above the cluster where the bees can reach it easily. Bees can starve with honey as close as 2 cells away from the cluster.

You probably know all this already but I thought it wouldn't hurt to mention it one more time.

Rusty


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Apivar should not be used if honey supers are present. Here is the info sheet/instructions: http://www.dadant.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/2011/09/Apivar-leaflet-EDITED-010413.pdf


Rader........from the Apivar website...... 

*4. When should I treat my hives with Apivar?
*You may use the product all year round, but as an additional safety factor for the good image of honey, it is recommended to not use Apivar when the honey supers are present:

It appears you can use it with supers on but it is not recommended...


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

snl, if you click on the link that I provided and you quoted, you will see that Dadant page is a publication from _Veto-Pharma_, the manufacturer of Apivar, and is clearly printed for the US market, as it identifies the USA agent. Among other things, it says ...



> Remove Apivar strips 2 weeks before placing honey supers
> 
> http://www.dadant.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/2011/09/Apivar-leaflet-EDITED-010413.pdf



Here is a PDF version of an Apivar label ...
http://www.michiganbees.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/20121211_Apivar_Final_Label.pdf

As part of the manufacturer's _Directions for Use_ section (which as you know, are enforced by Federal law), the first sentence directs one to remove the honey supers!


(that PDF is a Section 18 label, and it _possible _that the non-section 18 label is worded differently, but that seems _unlikely _to me.  )

It is possible that Veto-Pharma website is not USA-specific. However, the label on the USA distributed product must be adhered to, regardless of what happens in other countries. 
.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Take a look at this link.....

http://www.apivar.co.nz/FAQs.htm#FAQ 1


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

So what? :scratch:

Your link is to a New Zealand site. If Apivar is used in the USA, then applicators _MUST _follow the USA label directions!

Show us a [HIGHLIGHT]USA label [/HIGHLIGHT]that says Apivar can be used with honey supers present.


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> This is probably going to sound dumb, so I apologize for asking, but are you feeding syrup in the winter? Do you know that bees cannot take syrup when the temperature falls below 50 degrees? A much better choice is a sugar block placed on the tops of the frames just above the cluster where the bees can reach it easily. Bees can starve with honey as close as 2 cells away from the cluster.
> 
> You probably know all this already but I thought it wouldn't hurt to mention it one more time.
> 
> Rusty


Thanks rusty. This hive in mention is comletely indoors. I'm not sure but my rother may have actually been a member on here some time ago. He used to build furniture grade observation hive that rotate 360. You may have seen them. This is why the feeder is on the bottom.


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> Oh no a fish tank guy. Sell it and ask for twice what you have into it like every other fish tank guy.


I'm sorry but no way I'm I selling this:


Or this:


Or the 4 others I have.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Now that freshwater tank I can get behind. And of course you can't sell that saltwater tank, you'd have to ask $12k for it!  

I used to have 7 or 8... All freshwater, but none that nice.


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> Now that freshwater tank I can get behind. And of course you can't sell that saltwater tank, you'd have to ask $12k for it!
> 
> I used to have 7 or 8... All freshwater, but none that nice.


Thank you very much. Those Angels
Are my pride and joy. My first breeding attempt. They are my babies, though they aren't babies much anymore.


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## kingd (Oct 31, 2013)

Nice pics!

Brings me back to when I had fish,way too many. Didn't help that I worked at a pet store and got to order what ever I wanted


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

Well thank you to all. But this is a complete fail. Like I said my brother doesn't want to admit and realize that he's in over his head. He has always feed sugar water every winter and I'm just sick. He says he knows that he's not supposed to but the bees don't eat the candy. The OA came in yesterday and I GAVE it to him and he didn't say a thing. My parents tried to talk to him and he said that he wasn't treating them and it's not the right time and if I want to treat bees to get my own. I'm so sick of him it isn't even funny. I'm just trying to help and save them and despite the fact that you guys have way more experience he doesn't care. Thank though


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

How old is your brother? I am the "brain" keeping bees with my dad and brother. They are basically in it for the entertainment I guess. They aren't the ones mixing syrup, placing pollen patties, or otherwise doing the major stuff. 

If one of them tried to go heavy handed against me I'd be miffed. I like doing things the way I want to. But "my way" lead us to five out of five hives surviving the winter. Neither of them do enough research to really know any better. Seems like flip flop of your situation. 

If it were me, I'd take your brother's advice. I'd get my OAV back and figure out where I could get bees for spring.


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> How old is your brother? I am the "brain" keeping bees with my dad and brother. They are basically in it for the entertainment I guess. They aren't the ones mixing syrup, placing pollen patties, or otherwise doing the major stuff.
> 
> If one of them tried to go heavy handed against me I'd be miffed. I like doing things the way I want to. But "my way" lead us to five out of five hives surviving the winter. Neither of them do enough research to really know any better. Seems like flip flop of your situation.
> 
> If it were me, I'd take your brother's advice. I'd get my OAV back and figure out where I could get bees for spring.


I'm going to be 26 and he is 22


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Michbeekeeper said:


> I'm going to be 26 and he is 22


Go get your own bees if it is something you really want to do. It isn't worth wrecking your relationship with your brother over. And don't be boastful or anything if you are more successful.


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

Thanks guys. I'm looking into it. Though I am having some issue. Most place i have found are sold out of packages and/or do not ship anymore. I would really like to get a nuc if possible. Does anyone ship that volume of bees? I have check out the bee source page that list by state and haven't found much in michigan. I could also use some help selecting a line and I really have no clue what to do about that. We have always used Italians but is something better now a days?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Look into Carniolans, I am happy with mine down here. 
Good place to wet your whistle:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?275-How-to-Start-Beekeeping


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

Does anyone shipped packages anymore? I'm finding it VERY hard to find anyone who doesn't just sell the regular italians.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Michbeekeeper said:


> Does anyone shipped packages anymore? I'm finding it VERY hard to find anyone who doesn't just sell the regular italians.


You can always requeen later. Don't get too hanged up on queen strain.


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> You can always requeen later. Don't get too hanged up on queen strain.


Well it's also very hard in general to find anyone that will ship packages anymore.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Michbeekeeper said:


> Well it's also very hard in general to find anyone that will ship packages anymore.


Bee Weavers does... I think. And there is a member here Honey-for-All who does. Check Craigslist and any classifieds in local bee clubs or state association. It is a bit late though obviously.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

No clue as to quality, but this would be nearby, no? Maybe try to find someone raising queens locally to requeen later in the year? http://saginaw.craigslist.org/grd/4897806535.html

We got three packages last year with queens from CF Koehnen, all three wintered well here. Two Carniolans one Italian. No complaints.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michbeekeeper said:


> Well it's also very hard in general to find anyone that will ship packages anymore.


If your brother has already ordered bees why don't you split the order and have two separate apiaries? Then between the two of you you might be able to see what works and what doesn't.


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

Acebird said:


> If your brother has already ordered bees why don't you split the order and have two separate apiaries? Then between the two of you you might be able to see what works and what doesn't.


He's not ordering. I have been refering to the hives he over wintered. I guess it doesn't matter now as I reallized there is a bee supply store literlly 4 miles from my house that I never knew was there. Thogh packages are $100 a pop.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michbeekeeper said:


> He's not ordering.


I thought he was losing every hive every year so assumed he was ordering.


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

Acebird said:


> I thought he was losing every hive every year so assumed he was ordering.



He has one left this year and he's hoping to keep it that way but doesn't plan on ordering any.


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

bean tree homestead said:


> The fact that you have been aiding in keeping Bees for 5 years and are only now learning about this issue should be a sign to you to read more.


I was thinking the same thing. With all due respect for those who choose not to treat, IMHO, if you don't treat, you're just wasting your money on bees.

I have a buddy who has never gotten a hive through the winter before this year. This year, he started from a PACKAGE, and using the method described in the link below, was able to get them through the winter.

See

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...r-lost-an-over-wintered-hive&highlight=C10250


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## c10250 (Feb 3, 2009)

Here are some interesting results on treating with MAQS, back in 2012

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?264947-MAQS-Winter-Survival-Poll


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

Ok So I have a package ordered and it's coming in May 2nd. I know this is spring time but should I wait until fall to treat with OAV or do it a week or so after they get settles in?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

MB
I would hive the package, wait till you see eggs, treat, then wait again till late August to do a series of treatments.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

snl said:


> MB
> I would hive the package, wait till you see eggs, treat, then wait again till late August to do a series of treatments.


I know there was some back-and-forth in another thread about wanting "proof that treating a new package helps survivability" or something like that. I can't see how starting them off with almost 0 mites could possibly be a bad thing. 

I'd add that he should also monitor mite counts by some means. Alcohol or powder sugar shakes and know how those numbers correlate and translate for different times of the year. Wish I'd have monitored more my first year. Bees gave me a pass and all five of my hives survived to this point. 

Keep us posted, Michbeekeeper!


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

all bees have varroa mites, packages may have too many mites. monitor to see how many, and manage the situation. if the package shows 1 or 2 mites sugar shake or over 3 or 4 alcohol wash or more, then treat right away. oxalic acid vapor is a good way to do this, one treatment before capped brood would be a good way to get on top of the problem before you get in trouble.


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

Hey Mich,

I'm not to far from you. If you have your own yard and your own bees PM me and I will help you split your hives this summer and I have an OAV to treat in the fall. I agree....don't stay in partnership with your brother if he can't keep them alive!


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

thehackleguy said:


> Hey Mich,
> 
> I'm not to far from you. If you have your own yard and your own bees PM me and I will help you split your hives this summer and I have an OAV to treat in the fall. I agree....don't stay in partnership with your brother if he can't keep them alive!


Oh man I wish have would have know that sooner. I just got a bag or OA and a vaporier. I only have the one give down here in freeland. But may do more just depends on how they do and how the neighbors take it.


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## the doc (Mar 3, 2010)

Also not to far away. I may have a few locally mated queens and over wintered nucs later this spring.


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

I'm interested in Nucs is the price is right. I can't have to many hives as I only have a small place to put them. But keep me in the loop.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

We were discussing this last night at a meeting:



> oxalic acid vapor is a good way to do this, one treatment before capped brood would be a good way to get on top of the problem before you get in trouble.


Treat immediately while broodless, either vapor or dribble, and that should knock down the bulk of them. If you wait and they brood up you'll miss mites. I wouldn't even bother doing a count, just assume they are present...if you use the OA correctly, it won't hurt.


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> We were discussing this last night at a meeting:
> 
> 
> 
> Treat immediately while broodless, either vapor or dribble, and that should knock down the bulk of them. If you wait and they brood up you'll miss mites. I wouldn't even bother doing a count, just assume they are present...if you use the OA correctly, it won't hurt.


So are you suggesting I do it as soon as they are in the hive or wait until the queen is mated and lays the first set of eggs?


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## mathesonequip (Jul 9, 2012)

do it right away. there is about no chance of damage to the queen with oxalic acid vapor. with oxalic acid dribble there is more chance of queen damage. oxalic acid is not effective against mites in sealed brood so you would need to treat once a week for 3 weeks for a good mite kill if sealed brood is present. 3 times oxalic acid dribble in 3 weeks would quite likely result in a queen problem.


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## Doxdurango (Dec 15, 2013)

I am picking up 4 packages (Italian) not far from Freeland just behind Saginaw Valley State Univ. I then plan on requeening
later in the summer.


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## Michbeekeeper (Mar 14, 2015)

Doxdurango said:


> I am picking up 4 packages (Italian) not far from Freeland just behind Saginaw Valley State Univ. I then plan on requeening
> later in the summer.


That's exactly where I'm getting mine. I didn't even know he was there. I see you are from Hale. My parents live in Standish.


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