# Where Are The Beekeepers?



## drewbs (Aug 23, 2012)

When it comes to commerical bee keepers, everyone seems to have a story, or know of someone who has had CCD happen to their operations. However, it seems like no one is doing anything to try to combat it, or trying to do something different to stop it from happening. And I dont get it, I mean isnt your operation your livelihood, and you would want to see something dont about it. I see a lot of commercial beekeepers that are saying that other beekeepers that suspect pesticides, or GM crops, or treatments to be at the heart of it are lying and do not have solid evidence to back this up, but we still see CCD happening. It seems that we are losing more and more colonies and we are still coming to the same conclusion: well we do not know what is causing it, so we arint going to change. Its disappointing to see this because it makes us seem lazy, or stuck in the ways that are harming our operational but also could be devastating for our future beekeepers. There is a part of China that now has to hand pollinate its main crop, apples, because they used pesticides and sprayed their crops so much that all of the colonies the beekeepers had died. Isnt this enough to point to some evidence that pesticides are causing CCD, in combination with other practices? What i am trying to ask here is why are we counting letting CCD happen and not atl east trying to pinpoint to what is causing it so we can eliminate it to save our colonies, and our livelihood.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

drewbs said:


> Its disappointing to see this because it makes us seem lazy, or stuck in the ways that are harming our operational but also could be devastating for our future beekeepers. .


Alot are lazy & stuck in there ways! Your post is dead on, well said! I have been keeping bees for over 30 years and myself and many others I know don't lose over 5-7% every year, why do some run all over the map & others a constant 5-7% loss over winter. This is a no brainer.


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## drewbs (Aug 23, 2012)

on another note, its really disappointing to see beekeepers with HFCS or sugar to feed bees, because of beekeepers taking most to all honey that is in their hives, this again is a terrible habit to get into. I really want this to be an open dialogue, no judgement, but trying to find a solution.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

drewbs said:


> but trying to find a solution.


That really is simple, treat them just like any other livestock.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

drewbs said:


> However, it seems like no one is doing anything to try to combat it, or trying to do something different to stop it from happening.


What?


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## ScubaMark (Jan 6, 2009)

Who says there is nothing being done about it? Many ideas are being experimented with, styles of management, ect. Science does not point to any one culprit to CDD, pesticides, GM, or whatever boogey-man your moralist opinion disapproves of. Commercial farming operations by necessity must have practices that produce the margins to justify the investment, otherwise they go out of business. Honeybees are not even an native species to North America, so as economically important as they are, there is no ground to moralize about their loss on this continent. For the record, I am a no chemical treatment and no foundation hobby beekeeper, put no chemicals on my garden, compost only fertilizer, no weed killers on my lawn, all natural sort of person. But dang, the eco-religious sanctimony among those who hold the same beekeeping style and practices as my self gets to be overwhelming.


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## drewbs (Aug 23, 2012)

> But dang, the eco-religious sanctimony among those who hold the same beekeeping style and practices as my self gets to be overwhelming.


See this is the problem with talking about what could cause CCD. I am not a environmentalist in the slightest, im talking more about the bad practices, today, and how these practices are leading to thousands of colonies being destroyed, and beekeepers going either broke or deeply into debt because of these loses. It seems that it costs more and more time consuming to feed our bees HFCS then to let the rob the bees of all their honey and then selling it which could lead to winter lose. im talking about how much beekeepers have lost, which is definitely in a high millions to billions. I am talking about having to re apply treatments, when we could be breeding better queens. but more importantly it seems that if we do not do anything the bee industry could be in a lot of terrible. I dont want to see us end up like the Maoxian county in China ended up.


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## ScubaMark (Jan 6, 2009)

Bad beekeepers using unsustainable practices go out of business. But natural beekeeping practices are not sustainable either. There is no way on earth anyone could use the natural methods I use on my hobby hives in a successful commercial operation. It is the very fact that we have a competitive free market that results in the equilibrium of a sustainable commercial operation and avoids the overwhelming mistakes of one centralized planner who thinks he knows best and causes the tragedy you described in China.


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## Jon F (Jun 7, 2011)

I think when you all feed processed sugar to your bees you damage them. I also think all of you using chemicals on them damages them. I never feed my bees and i never use any chemciak treatments on my hives qnd they are probably stronger than most all of everyone elses


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Jon F said:


> I think when you all feed processed sugar to your bees you damage them.


A couple hundred years experience says you're mistaken.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

drewbs said:


> im talking about how much beekeepers have lost, which is definitely in a high millions to *billions*.


Perhaps you should do a better job of checking your facts before posting. _Billions _of dollars in losses? Really??

From the USDA *2011 Annual Honey Production Report*



> Honey production in 2011 from producers with five or more colonies totaled *148 million pounds*, down 16 percent from 2010. There were 2.49 million colonies producing honey in 2011, down 7 percent from 2010.
> 
> http://www.abfnet.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=183


Since total US commercial honey production is 148 million pounds, there is no way that beekeepers are grossing anywhere close to a billion dollars annually, so to suggest they are losing *billions *of dollars makes no sense.

.


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## beeman2009 (Aug 23, 2012)

Honey is not the only way to make money with bees. Have no clue what they actual $$ amount would be, :scratch: but I'm sure it's a lot more than any of us think.


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## Jon F (Jun 7, 2011)

cg3 said:


> A couple hundred years experience says you're mistaken.


As you all complain about bees suddenly dying off and being weak and needing medical treatments cough cough


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Jon F said:


> As you all complain about bees suddenly dying off and being weak and needing medical treatments cough cough


Not been a problem here, speak for yourself.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

drewbs said:


> on another note, its really disappointing to see beekeepers with HFCS or sugar to feed bees, because of beekeepers taking most to all honey that is in their hives, this again is a terrible habit to get into.


The bottom line for some of us is that we intend to turn a profit. I do try to leave the fall crop which is rather dark and strong, hence less in demand, but lately the drought has limited that to the extent there is not enough to go through winter with. At the price I pay for sugar from Walmart, it cost me about $3.00 per week to feed a colony of bees. I read somewhere that bees raising brood will consume about 100 pounds of honey to reach maximum bee population. I personally have no idea what the exact figure is, but I do know that here in the central part of East Texas, I want my bees to have 70-90 pounds to go through the winter and have plenty of stores to build up on beginning the end of January. Our elm pollen starts here mid to end of January, and with adequate stores of honey, or being fed sugar syrup, they will start to brood up. 

I will average $7.50 per pound [clear after labels and containers] for my treatment free honey. Let's just say that by building my bees up on sugar syrup, that I save 50 pounds of honey [I would actually think that it is more than that]. That is $375.00 per colony. Let's see $3.00 per week in sugar syrup X 8 weeks about =$25.00. :scratch:. That makes sense to me to feed sugar syrup and sell my honey and make an extra $350.00 per colony.

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

well said Danny


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

drewbs said:


> When it comes to commerical bee keepers, everyone seems to have a story, or know of someone who has had CCD happen to their operations. However, it seems like no one is doing anything to try to combat it, or trying to do something different to stop it from happening. And I dont get it, I mean isnt your operation your livelihood, and you would want to see something dont about it. I see a lot of commercial beekeepers that are saying that other beekeepers that suspect pesticides, or GM crops, or treatments to be at the heart of it are lying and do not have solid evidence to back this up, but we still see CCD happening. It seems that we are losing more and more colonies and we are still coming to the same conclusion: well we do not know what is causing it, so we arint going to change. Its disappointing to see this because it makes us seem lazy, or stuck in the ways that are harming our operational but also could be devastating for our future beekeepers. There is a part of China that now has to hand pollinate its main crop, apples, because they used pesticides and sprayed their crops so much that all of the colonies the beekeepers had died. Isnt this enough to point to some evidence that pesticides are causing CCD, in combination with other practices? What i am trying to ask here is why are we counting letting CCD happen and not atl east trying to pinpoint to what is causing it so we can eliminate it to save our colonies, and our livelihood.


An Apiary Inspectors of America Report from a cpl years ago reported an average across the Nation of 30% Die Back. Less than 10% of which was CCD or CCD Related. So, if one addresses what one can address, starvation for example, our annual losses would be quite a bit lessened.

Address what you can and don't worry about what you can't.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

drewbs said:


> on another note, its really disappointing to see beekeepers with HFCS or sugar to feed bees, because of beekeepers taking most to all honey that is in their hives, this again is a terrible habit to get into. I really want this to be an open dialogue, no judgement, but trying to find a solution.


And to those who leave plenty of honey and still have colonies facing starvation? No judgement, but have you walked in the shoes of those you are addressing?


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

drewbs said:


> im talking more about the bad practices, today, and how these practices are leading to thousands of colonies being destroyed, and beekeepers going either broke or deeply into debt because of these loses. It seems that it costs more and more time consuming to feed our bees HFCS then to let the rob the bees of all their honey and then selling it which could lead to winter lose.


The beekeepers I know manage their colonies so they have honey left on them to Winter. They don't take "all their honey". Normally, how much honey does it take to sustain a deep box full of bees? Here in SC a medium full of honey will keep a hive alive thru the Winter. So, a deep plus a medium or two deeps is all that is needed. Which makes a semi load of beehives a uniform load. Which is important when moving bees.

What has your experience been?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

For all of our talk about treatment free commercial beekeeping, time will tell. As the years go by, if treatment free commercial beekeepers grow in numbers and conventional commercial beekeepers wain then we will know what is doable.

That being said, treatment free commercial beekeeping must be a sustainable practice for beekeepers who do what the majority of commercial beekeepers do or it is not suitable to those who are the heart and soul of the beekeeping industry.

Hobby beekeepers and sideline beekeepers may show us the way, but until they can do so on a large scale current practices will remain dominant.


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## DRUR (May 24, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Here in SC a medium full of honey will keep a hive alive thru the Winter. So, a deep plus a medium or two deeps is all that is needed. What has your experience been?


A medium full of honey [35#] may get them through the winter, but I want them feeling secure enough with a store of honey to start brooding up as soon as the pollen starts. It may be a 1 1/2 month after the elm pollen starts before we get any type of flow here. Then the End of April to May first is when the major flow starts. They won't be at maximum population if they hold back on brooding up with pollen coming in. 

When I kept bees during the late 70's through mid 80's I was running two deeps. I wanted one of those completely sealed with honey [60-70# of honey] and the lower one with about 25% accross the top sealed with honey along with frames of pollen/bee bread. I had caucasions [midnites] and they would build up early if they had good stores, but were stingy building without adequate stores.

Danny


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## McGuire's (Mar 16, 2013)

It seems unfair to say that commercial beekeepers are doing nothing to fight ccd. We may not be chemical free and feed sugar, and hfcs. I feel that when our lively hood is in survival of the hives that we will naturally do everything we need to survive. Contrary to what people may think we do not make billions or even millions but with striving hives we make a living. 

Some make their living off of bees and like any business we run it as efficiently as possible. Until there is cost and time efficient ways to keep bees, we will probably continue to be stubborn and use the "old ways" (that until recently worked for many many years)


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

DRUR nailed it in post 15. It is pure math. 

Untill there is a premium for "treatment free" honey as a commodity, like SQKCRK points out, it is hard to be sustainable with the increased costs. 

Crazy Roland


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Jon F said:


> I think when you all feed processed sugar to your bees you damage them.


On what basis?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I knew I was doing something wrong. I just now realized it was everything. Jon F, are you willing to be my Mentor?


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> I knew I was doing something wrong. I just now realized it was everything. Jon F, are you willing to be my Mentor?


:lpf::banana:


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

I would love to put some #'s out there for those non profit beekeepers.
A tanker load of HFCS $11k-12k and a load of honey $92K.:scratch: 
I will take it to the next level. I take all there honey and then sell the bees in the fall so I don't have to feed them all winter. $$$$$:digging:
No treatments needed.


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## Rancho Simi (Apr 15, 2012)

We're doing what we can with the honey bee situation here in Southern California, including education and awareness, and have set up a Honey Bee Sanctuary exactly for this purpose. Please feel free to visit our web site at RanchoSimi.com


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