# Yes, I messed up, looking for advice on recovering.



## mhorowit (Sep 25, 2011)

Yes, I know what Mike Bush says about correcting comb before it gets worse and worse. Well, for a variety of reasons, I didn't and now i have the results. I'll try and do better next year, but for now ... .

I'm running one TBH so we're not going to be combining.

If they die, problem solved; I'll go in and repair as much as possible in preparation for spring. Problem: A) should I attempt to tape comb in place, or do something more permanent? No one will be around until spring to glue comb to bar. And the comb will be brittle from the cold. B) Anyone taken comb into the house to warm it up, then use a hairdryer to soften the wax and make a permanent repair?

If they are alive in February I don't want to go into the brood area, but I"ll be able to tape several bars of honey in place and expect them to connect it to the bar. Also, I can feed like mad. I'll remove and melt the comb that will undoubtedly get ripped being removed. or maybe temporarily mount them to a bar so the honey is available vice simply removed.

Anyone have any thoughts on this process? any suggestions? - Mike


----------



## Duncan MacLeod (Jul 24, 2014)

Hi Mike,

It's not clear exactly what the problem is - did you get really bad cross-combing? That can happen. But it's not a huge deal...I'm going to assume you've left the mess of comb in the hive for now. Just leave it, they will need it for winter/early spring. When they begin adding numbers again, start placing empty bars into the brood area, one at a time, and in-between any straight comb you have. That way they will build the new comb straight (and build it they will). When you are sure they are bringing in what they need, take the big mess out, slice it all off the bars and crush it into a strainer bucket. Manage new bars & comb more actively next spring - I have found that more intervention early will pay dividends later, in a TBH. Once the comb is built straight, you'll be able to manage it like a big hanging file cabinet. Don't know what you mean by taping bars of honey in place....did you harvest bars and keep them intact somewhere? 

Comb is a renewable resource - if it isn't to your liking, they will make some more. No need to go to heroic measures to try and save a big tangled mess. It will look beautiful as a bar of wax after you melt it down.


----------



## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

It would probably be wise to leave the comb as is till spring, this video would be worth watching for good techniques in reattaching comb. http://youtu.be/asYwcWxWGv4


----------



## AugustC (Aug 7, 2013)

I think your best bet would be to wait til spring. Do not mess about with their winter setup.
In spring the least complicated approach would be to do a shook swarm. This way you can remove all the comb in one go and start over. You will have to feed heavily and it may be worth putting a queen excluder over the entrance until the queen is laying again. This will have the added benefit on knocking back any varroa. If you get the comb home and there is something you can work with so much the better. It does tend to take a few generations to regress cell sizes as well so a comb refresh would speed that up.


----------



## mhorowit (Sep 25, 2011)

Great replies - I particular like the Youtube video.
Duncan - are you familiar with the trick of using rubber bands to hold the comb in place until the girls re-attach the comb? well, simply replace 
the rubber bands with masking tape (or the blue tape). That will give a wider surface area and is less likely to dig into the comb - Mike


----------



## Duncan MacLeod (Jul 24, 2014)

Duncan - are you familiar with the trick of using rubber bands to hold the comb in place until the girls re-attach the comb? well, simply replace 

Hi Mike,
Yes, very familiar - but was not clear on where you would get that comb from. Are you considering taking apart the cross-combed honey storage and reattaching straight sections? That's a lot of messy work, and only necessary if you are insisting on trying to straighten their comb over the winter, which is not something I would do. Over winter they need to focus on using their stores, not repairing comb. You could do this in the spring (more likely to have lighter comb, then, which is a bonus) which would save you some completed comb, give them a little lead. But, again, that's a lot of work when they will draw it again given the chance. 

I would not personally take August's approach and remove all the comb. While you would accomplish a total reset on comb, you would also destroy all new brood...all brood of any kind....in the spring, right when they are in the mode to build up. That would set the colony way back. In my TBH's they are much more likely to build brood comb to the guides, and almost equally likely to bend their storage comb. Surely you have a couple of straight brood combs to work with in the spring?

Good luck, whatever approach you use!

Kind Regards,
Duncan


----------



## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

I had serious cross combing lock up half of my first hive. I placed straight combs on either side of the cross combing to keep it contained. The queen loved it for brood so I couldn't just cut it all out. Instead, each year I moved it further to the back until this year it was at the very end. In early summer it still had brood, but the queen finally gave it up to honey by summer's end, allowing me to cut it all out. It did take patience, though. This woman has a great idea for a rescue bar. Scroll down a bit because it's about half way down the page. It uses hardware cloth and is so easy that I made several in fifteen minutes. http://www.thegardenacademy.com/BK_-_Rescue_Frames.html


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Over winter, build some frames to fit your top bar hive. However many combs you think you have, build that many frames... then do a cutout in the spring.


----------



## mhorowit (Sep 25, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> Over winter, build some frames to fit your top bar hive. However many combs you think you have, build that many frames... then do a cutout in the spring.


Mike - when you say 'frames', to what are you refering? - Mike H.


----------



## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

This is from a cut-out from this summer and shows the frames I used.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>>Mike - when you say 'frames', to what are you refering? - Mike H.
>This is from a cut-out from this summer and shows the frames I used.

Like that.


----------



## Marysia2 (May 23, 2014)

Delta Bay said:


> This is from a cut-out from this summer and shows the frames I used.
> 
> View attachment 14761
> View attachment 14760


How deep is that frame?


----------



## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

My hives are 12" deep with the size of comb being comparable to the amount of comb a deep frame holds. The change in shape makes the difference in where they put the stores. The reason I went with this size is I find that the bees can easily back fill the combs with enough over head stores to last them through extended freezing temps around here. They usually can store about 3" to 4" of honey over the clustering area going into winter.


----------



## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

These frames sure are handy to have around for a number of purposes. Great for cutouts, but I also like having one as my first bar. Really easy to pull that framed bar out and work the brood nest from the front when need be. Nice post with that rescue bar. I had not seen that option put forward before.


----------



## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

I’ve used frames like these also for cut outs and saving fallen combs in my tbhs. Very handy. They work especially well for newer combs that are more fragile, especially if heavy with brood. 

I use frame wire to hold the combs in the frames.--pounded in some shoe tacks and wrapped the wire around them. This is an easy way to do it if you can’t or don’t want to take your gloves off during the cut out.

Check out this entry from my beekeeping blog about a cutout I did several years ago in a cemetery. There are several photos of my “comb saver” frames.

http://musingsonbeekeeping.blogspot.com/2014/09/musings-about-beekeeping-in-cemetery-02.html

Good luck.

----------
Tom


----------



## mhorowit (Sep 25, 2011)

Here's some follow up.
Went into the TBH to salvage what I could.
Brought along several of those rescue-bars made from rabbit-wire.
tried to rescue a full comb of honey and you know what? wires tore right thru the comb, so for heavy combs, the wire isn't an option - Mike


----------



## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

Hi Mike, for reattaching honey bars you would really need to use a framed bar as pictured above by DeltaBay. The honey is just too heavy. By sure to use 4-6 elastics when framing honey. For framing brood comb you can get away with 2 or 3.

Cheers


----------



## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

Mike, thanks for the followup post. I haven't needed to use my rescue bars yet. Based on your experience, it looks like I'll be making some framed bars, too, just in case.


----------



## mhorowit (Sep 25, 2011)

If the top bar is 1-3/8 wide, how wide do you make the frame? My guess is 7/8" wide. Thoughts?
When the framed bar is in place, are the sides touching the hive walls? - Mike


----------



## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

Yes that's right Mike 7/8 or even 3/4 is fine as 7/8 is a bit harder to come by. I usually brad nail them but if you are screwing them together make sure to predrill the holes. And yes do leave at least a bee space all around. I usually make it a half inch actually just to be safe. Make sure the frames are pretty centred on the bars. Also if you are using elastics it can be helpful to make little notches in the frames where the elastics go so that they don't contract and slide down the angle.

Cheers EC


----------



## mhorowit (Sep 25, 2011)

Eric Crosby said:


> Yes that's right Mike 7/8 or even 3/4 is fine as 7/8 is a bit harder to come by. I usually brad nail them but if you are screwing them together make sure to predrill the holes. And yes do leave at least a bee space all around. I usually make it a half inch actually just to be safe. Make sure the frames are pretty centred on the bars. Also if you are using elastics it can be helpful to make little notches in the frames where the elastics go so that they don't contract and slide down the angle.
> 
> Cheers EC


Thanks for the reply. Still retain the foundation strip (popsickle or tounge depressor or whatever)? - Mike


----------



## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

Yes if you are not installing comb in it. My first choice is always foundation strips. They work best.


----------



## mhorowit (Sep 25, 2011)

Eric Crosby said:


> Yes if you are not installing comb in it. My first choice is always foundation strips. They work best.


Hmmm . I'm not planning on this being my standard set-up, just cases where I have to cut the comb off the top bar and use a rescue bar to get them straight again. So you're saying don't worry about foundation strips in the case of a rescue, but do use them if the frame is your standard setup? - Mike


----------



## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

I have no experience with the rescue bar, so I won't speak to it. The frames bars are very useful for installing cutouts just as you would with a Lang frame. They are also helpful if you have fallen comb or if things have gotten out of control somehow as far as comb orientation. If you are reworking soft comb into a framed bar, using extra vertical pieces of wood can also help to reinforce the comb under the elastics. If you use foundation strips on your normal bars that are heat welded to the bars you will never rarely need to straighten or rework comb. (In my experience). I use follower boards.


----------

