# Dan Rather investigates Neonics, Bee-Deaths and the EPA, tonight at 8pm est



## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

Thanks, it looks like it is very well done. Maybe just maybe this will get the ball rolling. How long did it take Rachel Carson to get DDT banned?


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

is this only online? Or will it be on tv?


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

I was looking at one of the studies http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/chemical/foia/cleared-reviews/reviews/044309/044309-090201-113501-079801-2010-12-22a.pdf I'm sure many of you have looked at it before but wow! I assumed they would test these colonies in the middle of thousands of acres of the test plot, not 2 acres. Test plot versus control plot seperated by 250 meters? In the bee world thats what a 20 second flight? I hope the human toxicity tests are conducted a little better than this one.:s


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

Does anyone know how and who selects the scientists to do the studies? Does Bayer select or the EPA? Who pays? I'm just curious if these studies are biased. I found that Bayer donated $10,000-$20,000 to this university in 2007(University of Guelph).


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## borderbeeman (Dec 16, 2010)

*Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*

Hi Muskrat Creek -
I encourage you to visit the Boulder Country Beekeeper's website and especially Tom Theobald's 'corner' of the site at:

*http://www.bouldercountybeekeepers.org/toms-corner/*








*Click on Photo for larger image*

He has a number of crucial docs on there, which are - as they say 'an education':



> In July 2010 founding member Tom Theobald wrote an article for Bee Culture magazine, Do We Have a Pesticide Blowout, that ignited discussion about the connection between systemic pesticides, specifically clothianidin, and sick bees. In December 2010 Theobald uncovered a memo showing that the EPA registered clothianidin despite its own scientists’ red flags. Timeline here:
> 
> * 7/1/2010 *Do We Have a Pesticide Blowout? *by Tom Theobald
> * 11/2/2010 *Leaked EPA mem*o
> ...


Each of these is linked to a PDF file which are hosted at another site for practical reasons - see:

*http://www.beyondpesticides.org/pollinators/clothianidinepamemo110210.pdf*

Tom became known nationally in the USA when someone in the EPA 'leaked' an internal memo to him, which revealed that the EPA's own scientists had tested Clothianidin back in 2002 and recommended it NOT be licensed because:

a.) It was highly toxic to honeybees and lots of other non-target insects
b.) it is highly persistent in ground-water
c.) It has a 'half-life' of up to 19 years on clay soils (meaning a a quarter of it will still be around in 57 years after application)
d.) It is 6,000 times more toxic to bees than DDT

Guess what the EPA did after their own scientists said they should NOT license Clothianidin? Yep - they licensed it. And it was planted on 92 million acres of American corn in 2010 - for the 8th year in a row. 

Please read Tom's articles, it is truly an education. PS - he needs all your support, he's been fighting this virtually solo for about 6 years now.


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## kjbann (Jun 30, 2009)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*

One problem is you just don't know how much stock to put into Dan's reporting after he left CBS in disgrace. Does he have a hidden agenda like he did then?
Ken


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## borderbeeman (Dec 16, 2010)

*Dan rather*

To be honest, until you raised this issue I had not researched it. WiKipedia has a balanced article about Dan Rather and CBS here:
*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Rather*

From what I can see, Rather was hog-roasted (and I strongly suspect it was a 'set-up') for revealing documents about George Bush's record in the Texas Air National Guard (the period when Bush was widely acknowledged to have been alcoholic and using cocaine). The documents, written by Bush's then commander, were highly critical of Bush's behaviour and have never been proven false. Rather was forced out because his producer had not taken the trouble to prove, in advance, that the documents were authentic beyond question. (try getting a lawyer to answer that one for ANY document!)

If I were asked to take sides with Dan Rather's journalistic integrity on one side, and George Bush - arguably a war criminal and kleptocrat on the other - I think I would give Rather the benefit of the doubt. Bush turned the American Presidency into a laughing stock for the rest of the world and brought disgrace to this high office.

However, the best thing is to just watch the programme and use your own judgement as to the balance of the evidence.


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*

boarderbeeman-thanks for the info. I will give it a read.

kjbann- yes I hope he does a better job than Dr. Oz did on apple juice.


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## kjbann (Jun 30, 2009)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*

I plan to watch the show, but Rather has practically no credibility left in this country - in most any circles. Obvious from his transition from one of the big three networks to one with a few hundred viewers.


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## Corvair68 (May 10, 2011)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*

I have grown up watching Dan Rather, and I feel he has an incredible amount of credibility among those who believe in honesty and the freedom of speech. Honesty seems to be disappearing with the bees, and freedom of speech seems to only be protected if it is being used to instill fear or violence. I'll be watching the show tonight for sure. Maybe we can get him up to four hundred viewers!


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

borderbeeman said:


> ... the TV channel HDNet.com will screen a remarkable report about how neonicotinoid insecticides are implicated in the ...death of bee colonies across America - and how the ...EPA... [is] complicit in this ecological disaster... a bee-farmer from Niwot, Colorado, pulled off a great coup by getting _*Dan Rather*[I/] - veteran CBS anchorman to produce this investigation ..._


_

First: HDNet.com is not a TV channel but a web sight no different from any other sight on the World Wide Web, and HDNet.com can pod cast anything their little heart desires from pornography to the Pope’s Easter services at Saint Peter’s. To suggest that HDNet.com is a broadcast TV channel is self serving.

Second: Dan Rather is not a CBS news anchor nor is he currently a news anchor for any other broadcast news network. Dan Rather is however a disgraced FORMER news anchor. Mr. Rather lost his news anchor job at CBS when he decided he was so god like that he could made up the news to fit his preconceived notions of how the world should be. Mr. Rather then cobbled together a batch of counterfeit documents to “PROVE” his bias ideas and they indeed proved Mr. Rather was biased. Any statement to the contrary or that claims Dan Rather is a CBS news anchor is highly disingenuous. 

Third: I doubt there is anything new in this pod cast and I suspect Mr. Rather’s proof will be even less convincing than the counterfeit documents that cost Dan Rather his job at CBS. In fact I fully expect Mr. Rather’s production on HDNet.com to be as unscientific as Dr. Mehmet Oz’s exposé about arsenic in apple juice. 
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/dr-richard-besser-dr-mehmet-oz-debate-arsenic/story?id=14526426
Mr. Rather’s and Dr. Oz’s skits are not about science but rather about spiking viewer share (like the Nielsen Ratings) so they can increase their advertising rates for hyping vacation time shares in Timbuktu. Besides, I wish I had the luxury some do of only worrying about the dangers posed to my bees by seed coatings. When honey bees aquire the dietary habits of gopher rats I will begin to worry more about seed coatings. In the bad old days I saw many times what widespread and indiscremant insecticide use can do to a bee colony. I can tell you it is much more devastating than any scenario Dan Rather will likely conjure up. 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/search.php?searchid=651950

Fourth: Do you feel the EPA & FDA are in the pockets of apple juice makers and corn farmers just because Dr. Oz or Dan Rather uses pseudo science to frighten the bejebers out of their viewers? My local apple grower (who is also a beek) tells me that this fall is the last time he will sell apple juice and he may stop growing apples altogether because next year it will be almost impossible for him to meet the government’s health requirements. China (the supposed home of bee related insecticide horror stories) now produces 2,000% (20 times) the pears we do in this country and 1,000% or 10 times the apple juice concentrate produced in America.
http://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?commodity=concentrated-apple-juice&graph=production
http://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?commodity=pears&graph=production
Not only that but fresh apple production in China is now increasing by 4.16% per year and fresh apple production is decreasing by 2.62% per year in America, the home of Johnny Apple Seed.
http://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?commodity=apples&graph=production-growth-rate
How do the facts concerning declining agriculture production in the USA relate to Rather's hype about the EPA, UDSA, and FDA being in the pockets of agricultural chemical companies? I would like to know._


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## Gord (Feb 8, 2011)

Dude; unless you have expert, incontrovertible proof, that's your opinion.
Everybody...take your meds !


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## woodguyrob (Jul 29, 2010)

Scrapfe- are you saying the EPA & FDA are _NOT _influenced by the likes of Monsanto, Bayer etc. etc?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

He might say it but it wouldn't make it true. It is sad that the truth can't be told on the national networks.


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## Corvair68 (May 10, 2011)

First... HDNet is a television channel. I just finished watching the show on my TV. Channel 564 I think... they may not have that many channels where you live?

Second... Nobody said he is currently a news anchor for a news network. I suppose you think he got the documents about George from the same guy that Obama went to for a birth certificate. It is a well known fact that George Bush drank a lot in his younger years and had used drugs. Many people have at some point in their lives. It would not have affected his ability to be a good president. I don't know what his real problem was.

Third... I doubt you would listen to any report whether on TV or on a pod cast that didn't come from Fox News.

Fourth... When the EPA doesn't listen to the warnings and negative reports of their own scientists, and allows tests for Honeybees to be done on 2 acre lots... I would say they are in the pockets of the highest bidder. That's nothing new, it's been going on since before Julius Cesar and I doubt is is going to end anytime soon.

You could put up a chart for almost anything, and China would have a higher production rate than us... even American flags. Why does China produce more than we do? Well besides their total disregard to the health and well being of their fellow human beings. Selling honey full of lead and pesticides, toys with lead paint, and even children's toys with chemicals that produced date rape drug effects when combined. They are very hard workers (or are forced to work hard), and they get a huge amount of money to support them from Americans. If you want American production to go up then America needs to stop out sourcing all of our products to other countries.

A lot of Americans are moving away from agriculture which would probably account for at least part of the whopping 2.62% drop in apple production. I know of several apple orchards and farms where the younger generations just aren't interested in keeping it going. A lot of the younger generations are looking for things that don't require hard work. 

I get my apples and juice locally from an organic apple farm that seems to be doing quite well. Some of their apples may not be a pretty as the ones at the store, but as they say beauty is only skin deep.

That's my opinion... I think a lot of it is incontrovertible... now leave me alone I am going to take my meds!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*



kjbann said:


> I plan to watch the show, but Rather has practically no credibility left in this country - in most any circles. Obvious from his transition from one of the big three networks to one with a few hundred viewers.


What he said. 
Dan Rather tried to influence a presidential election with forged documents because they fit his preconceived ideas of what the facts were. Were that not the case Mr. Rather and Ms. Mapes would have been heros and not have lost their jobs. But were the charges true? Perhaps, perhaps not but any charges should be based on irrefutable facts and not forged documents handed to CBS by someone who had an obvious dislike for Mr. Bush.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*

Saying that something hasn't been proved not true is the classic case of proving you have stopped beating your wife! Or the question, Was you mother a good woman? If you say yes, I reply, Then when did she stop being a good woman? You have to admit that EPA approving anything with any rational objections is much out of character for them. They are more inclined to shoot everyone so no guilty go free!


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

This thread is about Neonics. Political stuff goes to Tailgater.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

I missed it by an hour. I was bringing my bee's back from the mountains. Anyone know where I can download it?


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Corvair68 said:


> ... A lot of Americans are moving away from agriculture ...
> I get my apple... juice locally... Some of their apples may not be a pretty as the ones at the store...
> I doubt you would listen to any report whether on TV or on a pod cast that didn't come from Fox News...


I seem to remember that 60 years ago cotton farmers yearly used 400 million pounds of powered sulfur just to control spider mites on cotton. I suspect that an equal amount of Toxiphine DDT was used to control boll weevils and other cotton pests. Now thanks to modern insecticides like the Neonics or other modern advances in agriculture, that is no longer the case. However if it would give them something to complain about I suspect it would make some people happy if farmers still broadcast insecticides on the scale mentioned above. I am not one of those people and it would surprise me if you are one.

99+% of Americans have already moved away from agriculture, except for obsolete geezers like you and I who still have that nasty old fashion habit called eating. The apple grower I mentioned is a full time farmer, meaning he is not MacFarming to shelter his "other" income stream from the IRS as I suspect many organic growers do. 

During the apple season I get my apples where you get yours. Yes, beauty on an apple is only skin deep, but remember when enjoying a cool glass of refreshing un-pasteurized apple juice, both of us are drinking apples that were ugly to the core. 

 Finally: I don't watch Fox News or any other left wing news program, nor do I talk back to the screen when I do watch TV, but if you have 564 and counting TV channels your right thumb must be awesome from clicking the remote.


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

I watched it. It was very well done. It certainly exposed the EPA and most of Congress for what everyone knows they are... totally corrupt and far worse and far more dangerous than just worthless. 
Thanks, Dan Rather, for speaking out; normally I have to watch foreign news to find out what is going on.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Awesome! Thanks for the heads up!


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## wkinne (Jul 17, 2010)

I do not see it on their website, do I have to subscribe to them to wach it online?

PLEASE! Someone provide a link if possiable! 


Thanks!
Wayne


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## wkinne (Jul 17, 2010)

Is the 3 minuts and 41 seconds the whole thing? Or is it just the trailer? I can not find a link to anything longer. 




Wayne


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## kjbann (Jun 30, 2009)

We get HDnet on channel 306 on directv, but it wasn't on last night and didn't show up at any future date. Dan Rather Reports was on at 8pm last night, but it was a different show. I noticed yesterday that the HDnet website was also confusing, showing Bee Aware on at 8pm last night and also another Dan Rather Reports show on at the same time. Weird.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Please re-read post #19, there are some good observations in #18 as well. Also remember that Wednesday nights on the History channel is monster quest, I think they are going to be looking at old UFO photos to try and determine once and for all if they are authentic, it's can't miss TV.


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

Actually, Jim, I found your #17 to be biased enough to be on Fox News.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Hoosier I want to offer a sincere apology, I mis-read. My statement should have been directed at wkinnie. I do believe my post was based on fact and not political hyperbole.


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## Hoosier (Aug 11, 2011)

No problem.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Here is a link to the report preview: Link


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## Corvair68 (May 10, 2011)

kjbann said:


> We get HDnet on channel 306 on directv, but it wasn't on last night and didn't show up at any future date. Dan Rather Reports was on at 8pm last night, but it was a different show. I noticed yesterday that the HDnet website was also confusing, showing Bee Aware on at 8pm last night and also another Dan Rather Reports show on at the same time. Weird.


 I was confused last night when I went to watch it on TV because the info didn't mention honeybees, it only mentioned school testing, and something else, so I thought I had the wrong night at first. It is available on demand in most places.


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## kjbann (Jun 30, 2009)

Corvair68 said:


> I was confused last night when I went to watch it on TV because the info didn't mention honeybees, it only mentioned school testing, and something else, so I thought I had the wrong night at first. It is available on demand in most places.


So was that the "Bee Aware" show? I didn't watch it because of the title. If that was "Bee Aware", I think I saw that it will be on again in days to come.
Ken


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## borderbeeman (Dec 16, 2010)

The Producers have made the entire program available via a download link. It takes about 15 minutes to download but it is worth keeping this one.
Hopefully someone will find a way to put it on Youtube soon

*DOWNLOAD ENTIRE PROGRAM HERE.*
*
https://rcpt.yousendit.com/1231411476/2035625aca76b8ec778bc93e7c51636f*


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## CentralPAguy (Feb 8, 2009)

borderbeeman,

what a great newsworthy investigative story. thanks for share sharing the link


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## borderbeeman (Dec 16, 2010)

*Shorter download version of the dan rather report on bee deaths & neonics*

Somebody has managed to edit the full 25 minute report from Dan Rather on Bee Deaths and the EPA's failure to follow its own registration rules for the Neonicotinoid - Clothianidin - currently used on more than 100 million acres of American crops.

The video is now just 60mb as opposed to 300 mb and can be downloaded in about 7 minutes from this link:


* [url]http://www.moraybeedinosaurs.co.uk/neonicotinoid/tom.mp4 [/URL]*

I thought Dan Rather did a very good job in this investigation: no hype, stuck to the facts and produced clear documentary evidence for everything that he mentioned in the film.

Worth recording and showing to your local beekeepers.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

Ooops - duplicate info.


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## borderbeeman (Dec 16, 2010)

*Streaming video of dan rather's report now available on vimeo*

Somebody has uploaded the Dan Rather investigation onto a high quality video stream at VIMEO

*http://vimeo.com/29419200*

Seems superior to anything I've seen elsewhere. 
You don't have to wait for the video to download - it plays within seconds.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Streaming video of dan rather's report now available on vimeo*

Three comments:
Excellent program.
Does this surprise anyone?
A lot of the program is common knowledge for those that don't have blinders on.


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## muskratcreekhoney (Mar 30, 2010)

*Re: Streaming video of dan rather's report now available on vimeo*

If Bayer designed a bad test on purpose, I wonder if they could be held accountable? I find it hard to believe that it was an honest mistake.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I would doubt it. The EPA approved the test. You would be hard pressed to prove wrong doing unless the data was falsified.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

Excellent report by Dan and company. 

For an update about some of the work at Penn State referenced in the new story, see this article by Jim Frazier et al., also available through American Bee Journal and Bee Culture.

http://www.extension.org/pages/60318/pesticides-and-their-involvement-in-colony-collapse-disorder


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## brushmouth (Jan 17, 2010)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*



borderbeeman said:


> Hi Muskrat Creek -
> I encourage you to visit the Boulder Country Beekeeper's website and especially Tom Theobald's 'corner' of the site at:
> 
> *http://www.bouldercountybeekeepers.org/toms-corner/*
> ...


Deserves a repost, and add this to our concerns:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...ol-subsidies/2011/09/27/gIQADrdB1K_story.html


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*

To anybody with half a brain it is common sense that pesticides are not beneficial to bees (any pesticide). This is very similar to climate change. If it affects you financially you will fight it tooth and nail until it becomse so obvious that you can't deny it but when you do you will call it by another name.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*

'...pesticides are not beneficial to bees (any pesticide). '

Unless it targets mites or SHB.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Corvair68 said:


> ... Why does China produce more than we do? …They are very hard workers... If you want American production to go up then America needs to stop out sourcing all of our products to other countries…


More on this much later.



Corvair68 said:


> ... A lot of Americans are moving away from agriculture… I know of several apple …farms where the younger generations just aren't interested… A lot of the younger generations are looking for things that don't require hard work…


More on this a little later.

Trying to cover all the bases here aren’t we?



Corvair68 said:


> ...That's my opinion... I think … it is incontrovertible…


Its later now. 

Pyrethrum, the worlds‘ first modern pesticide was discovered in China around 400 years ago, but then 300 years later the Boxer Rebellion swept China. The Boxers, either rightly or wrongly, wanted to eliminate all modern influences from China. At the time the most widespread and visible modern influence in China was the steam locomotive, and steam locomotives or trains suffered terribly at the hands of the Boxers. To the Boxers one of the locomotives greatest sins was breaking the *******’ rice bowls. Locomotives in other words performed much of the manual labor that Chinese workers previously performed, only locomotives performed this work better, quicker, and cheaper than the ******* could perform it. 

Today the Boxers are portrayed by the west as students, and indeed many of them were students. However, almost all the Boxers were Shou-Lin martial arts (Kung-Fu) trainees, hence westerners chose to name the rebels “Boxers,” Evidently no westerner had yet seen a Jackie Chan flick or the Boxers could just as easily have been called the “Kickers.” During the Boxer Rebellion the Shou-Lin ‘grand’ masters drummed up business by promising their acolades that 90 days of Kung-Fu training would render a student immune to western bullets. Some ‘grand’ masters even promised that if a student endured a year of training, (I suspect paid in advance) that said student could learn how to take wing and fly away from danger.

Now the roles of China, and the U.S.A. are reversing. Increasingly it is the west that is abandoning the modern and attacking the scientific, while embracing the supernatural and the superstitious by following quasi religious charades like the one Dan Rather produced concerning systematic insecticides. Gurus like Dan Rather have become the west’s equivalent to 19th Century Shou-Lin monks. These American charlatans, like the Shou-Lin monks before them, go around making unproven or often misleading statements about anything and everything from honeybees, to your food, to our environment. 

There has not been one single job outsourced from America to China or to any other third world country. The rest of the world however have imported millions of American work units. The reason so many American work units fled our shores for bastions overseas is because like Corvair68 hinted at, Americans value work and the minor pimples or slight inconveniences that often accompanies work, like we value landfill garbage. We would rather pack it up and send it elsewhere. Some of us have even decided that it is better for the Gods of the environment if we bale our agricultural production up nice and neat, and put IT on a “slow boat to China” as well. We now increasingly view the modern in the same light Shou-Lin monks and their trainees once viewed steam locomotives; as a demeaning, blaspheming, smoke belching sin against the gods of nature and these gods’ inter Chi. China has been where we are now headed, China stepped back from the abyss but only after ¾ of a century of turmoil, war, revolution, and famine. I hope after all is said and done that America comes out of her current Luddite phase with a better taste in her mouth than China did a 100 years ago, but I fear we won’t.

My “INCONTROVERTIABLE” opinion, and I’m sticking to it, is that those foot steps you hear behind you are not the foot steps of honey, apple juice, or any number of other jobs or agricultural production returning to these shores, it is the sound of America’s chickens coming home to roost!!!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*



WLC said:


> '...pesticides are not beneficial to bees (any pesticide). '
> 
> Unless it targets mites or SHB.


No. Including mites and SHB. All pesticides loose their punch against insects. Chemicals will never be able to eradicate any insect and they have been proven to strengthen or make worse the problem we face with insects that we don't like. Monsanto's world may be caving in on them due to the failure of GMO's. No doubt Bayer will follow suit.

Even bees will survive the chemicals that we bombard them with but the honey industry as we know it will not. That is what is really at risk, not the survival of the bees.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*

As an issue, I think that the pollination of crops outweighs honey production.

So, in order to ship hives, you need to get the paperwork. That generally means treating hives so that they can pollinate crops that have been treated as well.

I don't see a way off of that treadmill.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*



WLC said:


> I don't see a way off of that treadmill.


Yeah, it is like asking our congressmen to take a cut in pay to help balance the budget in a time when the country still has credit. No point in looking towards the future. Worry about it then.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*

Got an effective replacement?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*

For the congressman or the bees. The only way you can change a government system is by revolution. I don't see that happening in the near future. In the distant future it is very possible.

For the bees it means banning pesticides all together so nature can control the balance. That probably will required a revolution to change the government in such a way that the laws they create effect all equally not just the fortunate few.

To continued the present path of chemical treating will only become less and less effective. So we are already in a downward spiral.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*

I meant the pesticides, like neonics.

How you got from 'pesticides' to 'congress' I'll never know.


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## BoBn (Jul 7, 2008)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*

Thanks for the jokes. This thread is funny.


Many crops are wind pollinated and self pollinated . Corn and beans and tomatoes do not need insect pollination. Peaches and oranges are pretty close to not needing insect pollination. There are some new almond varieties that are almost there. It will probably be another 5 years before we see growers planting large acreages of self pollinating almonds. It is now the "golden age" of commercial pollination. Commercial pollination is going to become less and less relevant for food production in the future. Average people are getting tired of hearing news about honeybee problems. Most people don't care if bees are being poisoned. 

Durable, synthetic organic compounds last too long in the environment. Whether it is pharmaceuticals or solvents or pesticides, we are drinking, eating and breathing trash. Natural chemical compounds degrade fairly rapidly, but many of these synthetics will be around for decades. There is nowhere on the earth where you can breath air that does not have trace amounts of synthetic chemicals. There is nowhere in the ocean that you can sample water and not find traces of synthetic chemicals. Some people seem to think that it is a good thing. 



Scrapfe said:


> Pyrethrum, the worlds‘ first modern pesticide was discovered in China around 400 years ago,


That is interesting. I had read that pyrethum was used in Persia and introduced into China, but much earlier than 400 years ago. It is certainly not a "modern pesticide" Bordeaux mixture is much more modern. Many of the 20th century pesticides evolved from the chemical weapons used during WWI, but I don't consider these as modern either.

What I consider modern pesticides are those that have been developed to target a specific life process in the target organism.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*



BoBn said:


> It is now the "golden age" of commercial pollination. Commercial pollination is going to become less and less relevant for food production in the future.
> 
> ...
> What I consider modern pesticides are those that have been developed to target a specific life process in the target organism.


Sounds like Utopia. They may try to target a specific life process but they are not perfect because they affect other organisms that weren't part of the target.

I wonder how the big plan will work out for self pollination. Will the fruit be the same? I can't imagine it will be. One of the things you really notice about "organics" in general is that the food tastes so much better then the production model. It is also proven that it is so much better for you health wise. I think production food is starting to loose its luster right now so I really don't see our entire food source coming from modified plants that reproduce by self pollination in the future. That doesn't mean the corporate monsters will not succeed in brain washing some of the not so picky customers.


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## WI-beek (Jul 14, 2009)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*

“For the congressman or the bees. The only way you can change a government system is by revolution. I don't see that happening in the near future. In the distant future it is very possible. “

This country will have to fall flat on its face before a revolution will happen. This will happen eventually and it may be a lot sooner than you may suspect.

Genetically modified self pollinated crops are going to take over agriculture. This may very well result in the worst famine ever when disease develops an destroys everything like the potato famine. Seeds of non gm crops will not be available in the quantity needed to avert a disaster till its to late to escape famine. Then people will say we should have known better, but the human mind is weak and everyone follows the trend of the day.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*



WI-beek said:


> Genetically modified self pollinated crops are going to take over agriculture.


I don't think that is going to last too long. They are already back peddling now loosing the war on insects. Nature will always insist on a balance. When man tries to manipulate the balance in his favor nature always seems to win in the end. The US is a very small country when you think of the worlds land mass. Most of the worlds tillable soil does not reside within the borders of the US. So if we destroy our land through stupidity the rest of the world will kick in and feed the masses. There is no way Monsanto can stop nature from producing natural seeds. In fact it is more the other way. Nature will water down the GMO plants.


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## Seymore (May 1, 2009)

*Re: Tom theobald's papers on the epa and clothianidin issue*

I tend to side with you, WI! And well said!


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Acebird said:


> I don't think that is going to last too long... Nature will always insist on a balance... There is no way Monsanto can stop nature from producing natural seeds... Nature will water down the GMO plants.


Don’t bet on it.
Today’s GMO is tomorrows, heirloom.
Some examples from the Web.
http://www.victoryseeds.com/tomato_rutgers.html
http://www.americanmeadows.com/vege...vegetable-seeds/heirloom-rutgers-tomato-seeds
http://sustainableseedco.com/Rutgers-Tomato-Seeds.html

_“RUTGERS TOMATO (Solanum lycopersicum) A vintage open-pollinated variety dating to 1920 when it was developed for Campbell's Soup and then improved upon in 1934 by Rutgers University. Disease resistant stabilized cross between J.T.D and Marglobe…”[/I]http://www.cherrygal.com/tomatodetrutgersheirloomseeds2011-p-9053.html

I don’t know, but I suspect that there are some reading this forum who trim the gullible by selling ‘heirloom’ Rutgers tomato seeds. The Rutgers Tomato is in fact the world’s first hybrid tomato and was first introduced or developed by Rutgers University in corporation with ECSCE inc. (Evil Campbell’s Soup Cannery Empire inc.) during the 1920s. During the 1930s Rutgers was stabilized as a variety back when ECCE inc. did most of their canning in the former Garden State. Before we chased tomato farmers and canneries into friendlier climes, where they eventually ended up in what is today the Earths friendliest clime for producing tomato paste, China. China in fact produces about as much tomato paste as the 2nd , 3rd, & 4th largest tomato paste producing nations combined. We BTY are not even in the top 10, read it and weep. 
http://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?commodity=tomato-paste&graph=production
Anyone wish to order a pizza? 

Rutgers seeds now breed true because they have been line bred and the recessive or trash DNA was out selected, so today Rutgers Tomatoes breed true to type. But they are still hybrids. The same thing will eventually happen with the DNA in most GMO organisms. 

When the first Cave Man/Woman started selecting seed from their most productive or useful plant varieties to re-sow, I believe there was an un-imaginative naysayer fretting about the health benefits of higher yielding wheat, oats, maize, rye, or barley. In about a hundred years I also expect some internet hustler will be selling “Heirloom Roundup Ready soy bean, sugar beet, and corn seeds. _


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

GMO does not mean hybrid. You wouldn't even call the original tomato plants food, more like weeds.
GMO is the modification of the DNA so the plant can survive chemical treatments for herbicides and pesticides. Hybreds are the mixing of the genes by cross pollination so you get the best of both worlds. One is natural and one isn't.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Acebird said:


> ... You wouldn't even call the original tomato plants food, more like weeds...


Thanks, you are making my argument for me. Oh, and don’t forget that an original ear of maize looks more like a smutty head of barley than it does a modern ear of dent corn. So while your statement about the humble tomato is true in so far as it goes, it only serves to bolster my contention and that contention is. Both hybridization and genetic modification can only be accomplished by human manipulation of the genetic material or DNA code of plants or animals employing mechanical or artificial means. I think 90% of us will agree that the above statement is true. For the other 10% a refresher course on the roll played by the birds and the bees may be in order. 

The biggest practical difference between hybridization and a GMO is the rate or pace of change. In nature change is the only constant but change in nature is slow and hit or miss. If you doubt this statement, ask a varorra mite. Here is a test, if a genetic engineer developed a GMO that replaced all systematic pesticides like the neonics, and with no known negitive side effects on honeybees, would you approve? If you would not approve it would be very very difficult if not impossible to please you. 

We Americans need to open our eyes, and take a huge draught of skepticism every time our European cousins bash GMOs. IMHO the only reason any European nation bans GMs is because Europe is illegally protecting European agriculture at the expense of US farmers. And naïve Americans fall for this jaded ploy every time our wordly European cousins uses it.


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