# Sticky  The use of 48hr queen cells to spread resistant genetics



## msl

A bit of a rehash of another post I made in the queen breed section, but I feel it has very valuable implications to TF keepers and solving what I feel is a major pitfall in the movement, the lack of availability of local/regional resistant genetics…

So the back story here is now that I have my numbers up, I am moving toward grafting to replace the majority of my queens with more resistant ones(not just mites, I have some chalk and EFB issues as well), My 1st attempt at grafting was poor… checking the grafts 48hours later 2 out of 9 took (#10 fell off the grafting bar, lol) 
So of course I want to regraft, but what to do with the 2 that were started… I would hate to “waist” them (in hind sight what am I wasting… 2 days of starter/finisher time? Not much realy) I recalled someone at one point talking about using unsealed queen cells susfully. So in a spur of the moment move I broke up an nuc that just didn’t seem to be growing out well and placed the cells in to what on later inspection looks to be weaker than intended 2-3 comb mating nucs….


Picture below- grafted 5/5 placed 5/7 picture taken 5/9 

Not too shabby, so I decided to look in to what was out there on the subject of 2 day cells, There is more then I would have thought, coming from some very respected beekeepers
Seems they are used in NZ over ruff roads as they are less susceptible to transport damage
John Kefuss has been shipping them
Larry Connor learned about them from Kefuss and started using them…. Even putting them (with no bees or heat) in his carry on luggage, and using them in his grafting classes so people can take their grafts home. He feels a 2 frame nuc is fine to finish the single cell and this is a powerful tool to distube genetics http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/files/articles/American_Bee_Journal/ABJ2010-10.pdf
http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/files/articles/Bee_Culture/BC2012-06.pdf

Localy here on BS we see



BWrangler said:


> I've experimented with unsealed queen cells and found them to be much more robust than sealed queen cells. Once harvested they:
> - didn't require any temperature control.
> - were practically immune to transportation shock.
> - needed no attendants.
> - were readily accepted.
> I suspect they could successfully and easily be shipped almost anywhere.
> You can read more about my tests at:
> http://bwrangler.litarium.com/two-day-old-cells/
> One test not mention consisted of letting 24 hour old queen cells set unattended, in a cool place, for two days. The bees readily accepted these cells and raised normal, healthy queens from them. That's how robust they are.



The idea of grafting on a Friday after work, then on Sunday tradeing/selling/swapping/buying cells over lunch at a group meeting, then coming home and placing the cells directly in to mating nucs on Sunday evening is an extremely exciting prospect.
As is the ability to for very few people to cheaply/easily distribute better genetics in there area to those who started with commercial stock. 

Does anyone have info on Kefuss’ shiping methods?


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## gww

Msl
Thanks for shareing.
gww


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## msl

I was a bit suprized at the lack of interest in this....but I guess I shouldn't have been :waiting:
John Kefuss and Sam Comfort are using them to make increase(you don't get much bigger in the TF world then them)
Joe Latshaw and Larry Connor are working with them (you don't get much bigger in the queen breeding world then them)
Giants in their field are pointing a way forward, and nothing but crickets 

As I have harped on in the past I view distribution of local TF stock as one of the largest hurtles to TF growing 
Latshaw seems to agree_ Distribution of improved genetics appears to the the weak link in the chain when it comes to propagating local queens form local stock _-Bee Culture April 2011

The other thing I harp on is select genetics Dee Lusby would seem to agree 
_Now more than ever beekeepers must manage the genetics of the bees in their colonies if they hope to deal with these problems.The strongest tool that a beekeeper has for controlling colony genetics is the grafting needle_ ABJ Nov 1989

This solves both... 2 day cells are fast cheap and easy for the producer and can be done small scale even by some one with just a few hives, and the end user does the heavy lifting of finishing and mating the queen (a drain on the producers resources) by just tossing the cells in to spits and it no more challenged then any other split, as they were going to split any way, both partys benefit and drive costs down.

spit balling some numbers 
A nuc sized starter could kick out 30 or so (graft 40, 30 take) per run, even at a low ball 3 for $10 that's $100... kick out a batch for Friday evening pick up and a round for Sunday... that's $200 quick bucks to you, and 20 TF keepers off to a much better start. For what, 2 hours and a few styrofoam cups and JZBZ cell cups? 
Sounds like a good week for the small time keeper and a great week for local TF. 

do a run mid may to place in all the starts from packages that are going to want to superseded anyway, and another one towards the end of the flow when its time to induce a brood break/pull a nuc and go in to winter with a fresh queen that will explode come spring and winter bees razed by low partisized nurses

I see the 48 hour cell as a **** or get off the pot acid test for the TF movement, excuses (time, number of hives, ETC) are out the door, a keeper with one hive could make these cells and make a difrance. 
If you have the "good stuff" we are all less for you not sharing. If your genetics are not up to stuff we are all less by you not supporting ($$) those that have it. Even if your stock isn’t the best, its likely better then the queens the came with package bees. . Imagine a cell swap meet trading some lemonade for some comfort or some survivor stock for some buckfast.

We have a powerful tool sitting on the table, one that takes little resources, only slight motivation, and only a bit education and message shift. 
Who will pick it up and change the future? 
Who will support those that do?
And who will dilly dally working alone, talk splits razing their own queens ,swarms, ferals, “roll the dice”, nature, etc and promote the failures of the past?

Any way…. digging has produced more info 
here is Kefuss' set up for shiping 48 hour cells
http://www.bluetoad.com/publication...3&pre=&ver=html5#{"page":52,"issue_id":19180}
Joe latshaws work with them.. It's a bit degraded in the free format, but readabul if printed 
http://digital.beeculture.com/?issueID=19&pageID=31


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## pgayle

I like the idea. I have never had time to work on my grafting skills and never really got the hang of it. (I may be limited by some lifelong depth-perception eyesight issues.) I really haven't needed to graft because I only have 8-12 colonies and have just done reverse splits for queens. But the portability of the 2 day cells really opens up possibilities for trading within the bee club.


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## msl

knock off nicot sets are under $20 on ebay 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/110-Cell-C...682280?hash=item2aa6c6f1a8:g:~14AAOSw6Jxa2Mlt

Not going to lie the learning curve on grafting is kicking my but..... I am working on a cellpunch/cut comb set up using split cell holders that may work for 2 day cells....not ready for prime time yet


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## 1102009

I think it more easy to spread good genetics like described by Josef Koller.
Many don´t want to graft, so with the use of a common mating drone cloud location this project of Josef Koller could be a possibility and selection is more like in nature.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?346357-Selection
# 5

The splits my co-worker created bred from the survivor queen we do not move as long as there are capped queen cells. They must be moved 200km.
Open ones yes, and even better virgin queens which can be mated at my more isolated location.


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## msl

That's a selection/breeding program were the focse is on improving your stock The world (as show in this fourm) is filled with them, and has been for decades. 

What we don't see a lot of is distribution. The 48 hour cells remove all the reasons given as to why TF keepers are not sharing what they curantly have to improving the stock of those around them and improve the drone pool of ALL. 

The replacement of the AMM with Italian stock in the US shows us what needs to happen to shift gene pool.. Mass distribution and re queening for years with the original genetic source is what it took to drive the AMM genes out of the managed hives


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## 1102009

msl said:


> That's a selection/breeding program were the focse is on improving your stock The world (as show in this fourm) is filled with them, and has been for decades.
> 
> What we don't see a lot of is distribution. The 48 hour cells remove all the reasons given as to why TF keepers are not sharing what they curantly have to improving the stock of those around them and improve the drone pool of ALL.
> 
> The replacement of the AMM with Italian stock in the US shows us what needs to happen to shift gene pool.. Mass distribution and re queening for years with the original genetic source is what it took to drive the AMM genes out of the managed hives


The need to improve the stock is still there, for most people it´s the honey harvest and gentleness. No matter if tf or not. No matter hobbyist, sideliner or commercial.
So in every tf breeding program this traits must be considered too or all beekeepers must become bee havers. That would be the end of the honey bee as it is now and we need the numbers for pollination. That´s why beekeepers shift to other more productive races, still, all races can be resistant if this trait of resistance is propagated.

The distribution: I can only speak about my colleagues they only want tf stock if it´s ensured those will survive and there is a honey harvest. The ghost of the resistant africanized killer bees is still around so they believe the bees are too aggressive if they are resistant.

The big breeders of tf stock: they want a business. Who can blame them?

The above linked breeding program can be done with a group, not as a single breeder. But you need your neighbors to follow which is very hard.


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## squarepeg

msl said:


> The 48 hour cells remove all the reasons given as to why TF keepers are not sharing what they curantly have ...


says who?

it's really no less time or resource consuming for me to hand you a 48 hour cell than for a ripe one. 

frankly, i would rather let my strong cell finisher feed those cells all the way to capping.

some care has to be taken when transporting ripe cells, but anyone who has spent the night in a holiday express can do it.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

24 hour cells in the hand of most beekeepers just wouldn't work. Heck mated queens don't work half the time. What we need is more experienced beekeepers. Let the breeders breed. I hope someone will figure it out for the masses one of these days.


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## msl

SP I see it as much less time and resources as it spends 1/5 the amount of time on the producers site 

A keeper with one hive could shake bees in to a swarm box make 48s and return the the bees 2 days later. You don't get much less time and resource investment on a small scale. With more hives of corse the economy of scale changes and one would want to run a dedicated queen less starter A nuc starter finisher will kick out 4-5X the amount of 48s vs finished. Less gear, less time, less bees and a rogue virgin in the finisher doesn't take out the whole batch (as just happen to meinch: 
I am not so much suggesting changing what people (such as you self) who are set up for queen rearing are doing as much as what the end user is doing... if a good chunk of the people who got a few cells or a nuc from you or another long term TF keeper turned around and made ten or so 48s to share/barter in there local area, we start to improve the drone stock. 

The 48 removes the road blocks(real and perceved)..We see the beekeeper is the limitation not their amount of hives or gear, it's no longer "I can't offer queens/cells because I don't have _blank_" its "I won't offer queens/cells because I don't want to" and that's a very different dialog... can't Vs won't 

This limitation can be over come with education. Striping micro scale production of poratbul cells to the least resources/time/skill to drive the price down and enhancing availability. 

It seems crazy as its so against the convention , but at one point in resent history people felt you couldn't over winter nucs and that Palmer was nuts....
We have Connor, Latshaw, Kefuss, and Comfort all suggesting this is a good idea with a long history and a sold track record. 

Tenn Bee they work just fine, maby better. 
look how they are used in NZ with places with hard access, make hive queenless and insert cell at the same time and drive away from the outyard. On a newbee level if they cap it they have accepted it its an easy check form the top to see if there is jelly in the jzbz cup(VS being cleaned out) with out having to even spread the frames. One less failure point as you know quickly and clearly. 
opens up the little guys still making splits and letting the bees raise a queen, but placing the 48 so the selected genetics it the 1st to emerge and take the reins very little extra education is needed and a much better result happens, this a great tool to stomp out puppy mill genetics on the local level


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

Right. Now get everyone together and do it. 

No offense but in my experience with gurus like you mentioned above they are great about talking about it but not so great about really laying down hard facts and spreading that success around. As a new beekeeper I grew up on Webster, lusby, Kent Williams, bush, and other popular TF guys. Several of them I have tried their queens genetics or been to their yards. In my 15 years it has not been doing any good on the local level but hey it does sell I'll give it that. 

Right now if I can just get the locals to actually beekeep that would be an accomplishment.

I love the idea but we all have other things to do and kids to feed and raise. The bees aren't going anywhere. Meanwhile I am selling nucs and queens and they kill em and come back for more blaming the neighbor who sprayed Roundup between the cracks in their concrete.....


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## msl

> in my experience with gurus like you mentioned


bit of a stretch to put Larry Connor and Joe Latshaw in the same boat as _other popular TF guys whos stock dosen't perform when moved_ don't you think? 
Joe's II commercial breeder queens go for $565 each, min order of 4, he is all ready sold out for 2018
Larrys work more then speaks for its self



> Right now if I can just get the locals to actually beekeep that would be an accomplishment.


yep.....The do nothing lazy beekeeping message is a huge issue, Its most definitely what attracted me to top bars and TF


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## Kamon A. Reynolds

Larry while a brilliant guy has done what? Taught bees? Tried to create bees more resistant but failed? Sure he's is great where are his bees? He is a darn good teacher.

Latshaw $525 that's not that bad for a breeder. Again where is the success, or rather the change. Anyone can sell an idea or bees.

Brother Adam changed beekeeping by the development of truly tracheal mite resistant bees. That is what I want to see with varroa change we can see in our hives not on a page. We do the best we can and if the bees are cool with the way things are so am I.


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## msl

> Brother Adam changed beekeeping by the development of truly tracheal mite resistant bees


What happened to all the other non buckfast bees that are some how alive to day? 


> Larry while a brilliant guy has done what


:scratch:inch:


> Latshaw $525 that's not that bad for a breeder Again where is the success, or rather the change. Anyone can sell an idea or bees


:lpf: 

Check out Miel Carlota's history, they started with 5 hives, 12 years later they were the largest queen producer in the world, on top of being one of the largest honey operations running upward of 50,000 hives (depending on who you talk to), They made extensive use of 2 day cell.
the largest queen producer in the world... using 2 day cells by the 10s of thousands for their honey production operation...not finished cells, not virgins, not mated queens... let that sink in.....(insert sarcasm) nothing to see here, move along


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## msl

> experiments shipping 2-day-old queen cells with no cover bees from FL to be finished by nucs in AZ. Worked great.


-Sam Comfort
https://www.instagram.com/p/BtuTwGeFZOC/


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## Juhani Lunden

msl said:


> -Sam Comfort
> experiments shipping 2-day-old queen cells with no cover bees from FL to be finished by nucs in AZ. Worked great.
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BtuTwGeFZOC/


In the early 70´s Ulf Gröhn took piece of comb from Brother Adams hives in southwestern England to Sweden. He traveled with boat over the North Sea. It took over three days before he was ready to make a graft. 

You don´t need two day old cells to spread varroa resistant material.


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## tpope

I can see some benefits to using 2 day cells in my own operation. I will be experimenting with this method this year. I could be encouraged to try shipping too.


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## Fusion_power

I'm surprised nobody has posted the problems with this method. Yes it works. Yes it is a reasonable way to raise queens. But it is NOT a good idea to use with production hives except with some methods of swarm control. The reason is that the colony is queenless for a minimum of 22 days which is 11 days for the queen to mature and at least 11 more days for the queen to mate and start laying. If you give a 2 day cell to a colony that is preparing to swarm, that colony will still swarm unless all other queen cells are removed. If given in the fall for requeening, too few winter bees may be produced by the colony resulting in a colony that either dies over winter or comes out of winter too weak to make a crop of honey.

Would I still use 2 day queen cells in some conditions? Yes, but only with a good understanding of the objective and after carefully considering the effect on colony development.


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## msl

yes, you use them differently then mated queens. 
Use them as what they are, started cells. 
The spam can of bees it takes to finish and mate out in a mini nuc is giving you a great ROI, and letting a queen prove out in a nuc before being put in to a production hive is a smart move, risking far less resources.


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## squarepeg

sorry if i missed it msl, but is there a description somewhere about how the started cells are packed and shipped?


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## msl

3rd photo in the sam link, Looks to be a jzbz battery box, layer of plastic, and the cups put in cell protectors. 
Joe Latshaw also shipped them face down in his experiment IIRR in a foam block with holes put in a plastic bag
John Keffus ships them on there side in a foam block put in a bag http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/files/articles/American_Bee_Journal/ABJ2009-01.pdf
Larry Conner transports them face up in a foam cup put in a bag http://www.wicwas.com/sites/default/files/articles/Bee_Culture/BC2012-06.pdf
I don't expect shipping them to become the next big thing, but the fact they survive the abuse package monkeys throw at them suggests they should do well in a few hour ride in a climate controlled car with the genital handing a beekeeper will give them


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## Knisely

msl said:


> I don't expect shipping them to become the next big thing, but the fact they survive the abuse package monkeys throw at them suggests they should do well in a few hour ride in a climate controlled car with the genital handing a beekeeper will give them


Gosh, I’m not sure anyone wants to read about genital handing and abusive monkeys. The see quite resilient, despite everything! inch:


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## msl

Ha, dam spellchecker inch:

More from Sam yesterday 


> Who would be interested in getting 2 day #queencells in the mail? Say $3 each? Shipped in a damp paper towel, no cover bees. Place them in a split to be finished. How bout if they were stock from Kirk Webster, or VSH, or Parks Italian, or Saskatraz, or Cordovan, or Ontario Buckfast? Just curious. Wouldn't be difficult to run 12 cellraisers to produce 1000/week. Let's change the queenrearing paradigm.


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## squarepeg

msl said:


> More from Sam yesterday...


very interesting msl, thanks for the update. i can see how the damp paper towel would prevent dessication. i wonder how much and how long of a temperature drop the larvae can handle?


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## msl

I am going to guess more then most think



BWrangler said:


> letting 24 hour old queen cells set unattended, in a cool place, for two days. The bees readily accepted these cells and raised normal, healthy queens from them. That's how robust they are.


Sam writes


> The larval stage is the hardiest of the queen's whole life cycle. Cooler is better cause the slower metabolism means they'll eat less during travel.


In Breeding Super Bees, Taber says


> Eggs and newly-hatched larvae which have been separated from the bees will do best at 90-96% humidity and 33F. I have kept them on ice for more then 48 hours with no Ill effects


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## squarepeg

wow, and you are correct, i for one would never have thought that to be the case.

i spoke with tpope last night and he is rotating grafts into a pair of cell builders at this time.

i don't want to speak for t, but we spoke on the phone last night and i'm guessing he might be willing to ship some 2 day cells if someone has the splits to put them into...


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## lharder

I think there are possibilities. But most of my customers want a mated queen. In a way makes sense. You are getting the queen lineage, but also a range of drone lineages as well. So is a tf queen is mated to tf drones, you get a bigger resistant package. But in a range of strategies it could be useful. I would like to see some queen performance work done on cells treated this way. 

I think the biggest obstacle to spreading of resistant genetics, tf or not, is the reluctance to use them and the lack of education of the underlying issues. There is no education about mite resistance in our local bee meetings. I think I'm the only person who presented some material. Even the bee inspector didn't mention it when she gave her talk. Then at the bc meeting, some yahoo presented the notion that tf was the biggest threat to beekeeping. That is what the idea of resistant bees is up against.


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## tpope

squarepeg said:


> wow, and you are correct, i for one would never have thought that to be the case.
> 
> i spoke with tpope last night and he is rotating grafts into a pair of cellI made builders at this time.
> 
> i don't want to speak for t, but we spoke on the phone last night and i'm guessing he might be willing to ship some 2 day cells if someone has the splits to put them into...


I made 12 grafts this afternoon from a 2016 treatment free queen. I am willing to ship via USPS priority at your expense on Monday afternoon. So... who's not afraid of a lil ole TF Georgia queen???


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## GregB

tpope said:


> I made 12 grafts this afternoon from a 2016 treatment free queen. I am willing to ship via USPS priority at your expense on Monday afternoon. So... who's not afraid of a lil ole TF Georgia queen???


Well, last night we had 25F.
The next 10 days nightly temps are just above freezing by forecast.
Days are 50F or below.
So, of course I am afraid to take your little TF Georgia queen.
We are just barely coming out of the winter up here to even think of 48hr QCs.

Guys down there, we ARE really behind you by a couple of months. 
That's how it is.

By the end of May, I might be interested though to test this out.
2016 TF queen material is worth a try, even up here.


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## Nicksotherhoney

made 12 grafts this afternoon from a 2016 treatment free queen. I am willing to ship via USPS priority at your expense on Monday afternoon. So... who's not afraid of a lil ole TF Georgia queen???

I would love to get my hands on something like that... but unfortunately my bees did not make it through the winter and I get to wait till I capture a swarm or my packages come!


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## Knisely

No drones up here in Connecticut yet, though as I went through some hives I did see a few capped drone cells. Shipping 48 hour queen cells up north at this time wouldn't get us anything more than drone-laying queens. 

Now, as I type that, I realize that a well-organized system might be worked out in which it might not actually be a bad thing to have a TF drone laying queen (you'd need to supplement that colony with frames of capped brood & nurse bees, of course). You'd have your TF drones ready to take over your local mating congregation area. Later in the season, 48 hour queen cells could be shipped to you to be raised in splits and on emerging and taking their maiden flights, they'd be mated to the TF drones that are already flying...

Anyone organized enough to accomplish this?


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## BigBlackBirds

tpope said:


> I made 12 grafts this afternoon from a 2016 treatment free queen. I am willing to ship via USPS priority at your expense on Monday afternoon. So... who's not afraid of a lil ole TF Georgia queen???


I wish spring was far enough along to think about pulling nucs and mating. My bees are just starting to lay. I'm sure a few may lay some drone in the next week when weather really warms but those arent really colonies with genes which i want to widely spread either. Prefer them to stay hunkered down until the weather settles. It'll be a good 6weeks before I'd want queens mating and even then I kill off most of those early May queens and re-do them with queens mated in June as that's when our weather becomes much more predictable and i get way better long term results.

I have used many finished cells shipped from across the country. They are ok. But have plenty of issues getting them in timely manner, having them overheat in transit, etc. Have also used a few 48 hour cells from one of the folks mentioned in this thread too but I hand carried those. I'd be interested to see how they ship. I'll have to see what he knows about practicality of shipping them. 

In past I've used the 2 day cells by placing them right into a queenless mating nuc of normal size but have also placed them into a full blown cell builder to finish sealing, etc. On one hand, you have the potential to get away with using less resources by letting a small nuc finish them up and then mate. However, I didnt really like the results compared to sealing them in a builder and then holding them until just prior to emergence. That option might not work for those of you with a few colonies but flip side is I don't have something sitting around queenless for 2-3 weeks either especially as we hit the June dearth and some robbing starts.


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## squarepeg

BigBlackBirds said:


> I'll have to see what he knows about practicality of shipping them.


interested in the details of how this is done. please let us know what you find out.


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## msl

Every one seems excited on the shipping..... kinda cool, but just proof that a few hour car ride is no big thing. 

We can't mail order in TF queens from other areas and expect them to work out well. No mater how good they are on their home turf they seem to fail when moved.
Sure I would be exited for some exotic genetics, seems like us beekeepers feel the grass is all ways greener on the other side, and it sometimes is. And as Kinsey point out they are drone mothers regardless on who they mate with 
but I think the nuts and bolts here is that being so cheap and easy to make Vs the time and resrorces to make a mated queen they are ideal at the local and regional level as any one who has "something" can share if they chose. 

I think the down fall here is time, while they may be robust, they don't have a lot of time vs a mated queen in a 3 hole that can go up to 2 weeks, and when it comes to shipping time is money


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## tpope

msl said:


> We can't mail order in TF queens from other areas and expect them to work out well. No mater how good they are on their home turf they seem to fail when moved.


So how do VSH, Perdue ankle biters, Minnesota hygienic and such work for folks?


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## msl

> So how do VSH, Perdue ankle biters, Minnesota hygienic and such work for folks


They work well enough that they are a major topic on TF forums/websites and advice is often given people should order them? :lookout:
Harbo isn't selling any this year
MH is gone, Spivak walked away from the line 10 years or so ago. 

Despite being kept TF the past 8 or so years at their home site, MBB when moved/outcrossed took 50% winter loss
https://projects.sare.org/project-reports/fne16-836/
"_Winter survival for the Purdue MBB bees was 50% vs. the Control of 36%, or a mortality rate of 50% vs. 74%. This overwintering data could have been better if we used mite treatments in the hives when they were over the IPM threshold of 3%. But treatment was not allowed in this study_." 
main issue with MBB is it isn't "there" yet as a product. best case for those of us out side of the area is a open mated queen who's mother was the producers line IIed with MBB drones, I will let you do the math about how much MBB genetics are left in the workers after you rear queens off the one you bought 

Don't get me wrong, Bringing in an II breeder from VP for $200 or so and crank out a few hundred 48s at $5 a pop, next year do a MBB, is defiantly in my head. But that's about a long game genetic landscape shift, not sink or swim TF 
This year is all foundation laying and prof of concept at the local club level


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## BigBlackBirds

tpope said:


> So how do VSH, Perdue ankle biters, Minnesota hygienic and such work for folks?


tpope: This is just opinion based on what I've seen over the years---

the Minnesota bee was really designed by Spivak to find stock with hygienic traits following the old school liquid nitrogen tests that Cobey had been doing with carnis back at that time. we didnt know all that much about varroa back then but that testing produced lots of good traits regarding responses to brood diseases. all of that was great, i really appreciate it and look for that type of basic stock but its not so much aimed at surviving varroa (then). At one point in late 90's or early 2000, I used inseminated MN breeders and found them to be a solid bee when crossed out but the daughters were a little too "italian" for my liking which isnt really unexpected as Marla was working with a number of large migratory folks that just happened to use MN as a base. Not sure they did much to help me with varroa but I think they added to the mix of hygiene traits that I had originally sought in NWC's and I considered that a positive. My ancient notes say that untreated daughters only survived at about 50% which makes me think they didnt have much varroa resistance and survival was primarily driven off the smr/vsh/canadian stock drones. I didnt keep up with those bees much after that point but in following years both Marla and Sue added limited stock to the USDA program for vsh. I'm guessing Marla probably pulled it from Minnesota stock she had been working with. 

I don't have a ton of first hand use with Purdue stock in comparison. Alot of the attention for it seems to center around the grooming habits of the line in my opinion. Not sure where that trait orginally came from but I first saw it with russian stock 15 years ago. Folks in the know indicate that there might be more to the purdue line than just grooming and there are other varroa resistant traits at work. On the other hand I'm not 100% convinced as I know two folks with first hand knowledge/experience with the purdue program and both saw pretty strong losses with them untreated. I've not used an inseminated purdue breeder myself but have purchased cells produced from one locally and what I've seen with daughters is that they are a little too much "italian" and not really what I like for a northern bee. I currently only have a handful of colonies left headed by purdue queens but some of my mating places have nearby yards with 100% purdue stock which are being used by someone else strictly for drones sources. I'm ok mixing them into the stock and trying to keep some of the grooming habits within my bees. 

i'm biased with vsh. i generally know the science with it but mainly think of it in terms of first hand experience. there's few people around that have worked with it as much as i have going way back to the early 90's when the first survivor queens were identified. if you are looking for a level of resistance its your fastest option to get there in my opinion. however, there isnt really anything all that easy about trying to use that trait when you get to open matings and everything that entails. depending on your situation, you may be able to incorporate some of the selection trait into a local stock that has other qualities you like. if you are lucky you might be able to keep the resulting stock going but alot of that depends on how much ability you have to influence the total drone stock withing mating distance. for the general small backyard beekeeper, the best options seem to be to get a club, group etc together to buy a breeder and spread cells out to neighbors. i've used it so long that its pretty well incorporated into my bees. but also have the advantage that the same folks flooding their mating yard with purdue stock also switches up with vsh so even if my virgins are carrying the trait to begin with they pick it up on the drone side.

bottom line--they all work to varying degrees. Two decades ago it was extremely difficult to find a colony that survived untreated, like 1 out of 500 colonies, now not so hard to find. But you may have to add genetic material on a regular basis (by way of cells is your best option) depending on the local environment and how isolated or not you are.


----------



## msl

Good post BBB
tpope In rereading my post I see how it could be taken as a bit snippy, wasn't meant that way, I was in a hurry. BBB hit were I was going much better. 
What I was trying to convey is the 3 mentioned stocks are mite resistant lines, like Russians they are maintaining enocomtic traits, and are subject to failures. They are a starting place for a serious selection program , better then sunbelt almond bees. To me for a starting beekeeper the likelihood of failure is much higher then if they were to get some local TF stock that has already been threw selection for local adaption...


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## tpope

Your answers tell me that I am on the right path. I am well aware that I need to dominate the local DCAs and that even genetic drift takes some time.


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## msl

This weekend I drove some cells 20 min to a club teaching apiary and put them over an excluder in QR hive to be finished. 
The hope is to use them Sunday as ripe cells for a class and along with another round of 48s grafted Friday night, to give people some "homework" to take back with them.
Fully expect a high % of failures, and that's the point
Fail fast, fail cheap.
That way you have time and resources left to apply what you have learned


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## gww

Msl
Keep us posted anyway. I have referred this thread to others as an option for things they may have a use in doing.
Cheers
gww


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## msl

11 out of 12 capped


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## tpope

Looking good!


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## msl

Had to keep my mouth shut for a bit till things became public ...
I noticed on the day I took the capped cell picture the hive had EFB... Long story short the hives were eventuality treated and recovered (after it spread to the entire yard), The cells were destroyed before emergence, because who wants a queen from a EFB positive hive?


keep your eye on this one, it received its funding. 
While the "leader" is listed, Sam comfort and Angela Röell are part of the team
https://projects.sare.org/sare_project/ONE19-326/


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> I noticed on the day I took the capped cell picture the hive had EFB... Long story short the hives were eventuality treated and recovered (after it spread to the entire yard)...


MSL:

I am sincerely sorry to hear about your bout with EFB, and I am glad your yard has turned the corner.

The SARE project profile you posted looks like a worthwhile study- I will look forward to what conclusions they identify.


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## msl

It was a club yard I was teaching queen rearing at and had moved the cells to, there was a huge up tic in EFB in the Denver area this year
My main yard got hit hard last year and I learned the hard way not to wait with the "new" EFB that doesn't follow the old books (Stress problem that will go away with the flow, etc), the club had to learn this as well, despite my urging that the problem should be jumped on with OTC asap before it spread. 

The golden lining was we were able to bring in members in to see what an active infection looks like, and a few had a "that's what I am seeing in my hives" moment and were able to take action.


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> The golden lining was we were able to bring in members in to see what an active infection looks like, and a few had a "that's what I am seeing in my hives" moment and were able to take action.


Interesting story, MSL. I imagine this is a lesson that your club won't soon forget, and I suppose your recent bout with it positioned you well to help others take appropriate action.


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## msl

The Materials and methods and what not got added to the Sare grant page https://projects.sare.org/project-reports/one19-326/


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## Saltybee

Let the criticisms begin.

All those in NE that use a two frame walk away in May please stand up.
All those that have access to packages in June please stand up. Unless those packages are controlled at make up using the term "nurse bees" to describe them is rather loose.

While finding standard methods is open to debate, a two frame May walk away is way outside of standard NE.

Maybe calling it a Southern NE test might help.


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## Gray Goose

Saltybee said:


> Let the criticisms begin.
> 
> All those in NE that use a two frame walk away in May please stand up.
> All those that have access to packages in June please stand up. Unless those packages are controlled at make up using the term "nurse bees" to describe them is rather loose.
> 
> While finding standard methods is open to debate, a two frame May walk away is way outside of standard NE.
> 
> Maybe calling it a Southern NE test might help.


read the SARE it seems to be an interesting way to spend the money. It will be a data point and maybe the 48 hour and the 10 day do "similar" and we go deeper into that glade. BTW I would NEVER do a 2 frame walk away, so still sitting. It does take a second trip to the Yard but I would rather take the queen away on 2 frames and leave the 18 frames make cells then return trip in 7-9 days to make the NUCs. 

BTW any one try shipping or driving 48hr cells last summer, have any feedback to share?
GG


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## JWPalmer

You don't even have to be as far north as NE. I have tried two frame walk away splits several times and never been sucessfull. Three or four frames, piece of cake. Maybe I am doing something wrong with the two framers. They work great as mating nucs when given a ripe queen cell, but I just can't get a good queen from so few bees.

I like to do as the Goose suggested, put the queen in a nuc then come back in 10 days and make nucs out of the remaining frames in the hive. Two years ago I split one colony into six doing exactly that. Five of those splits are still active colonies today, including the parent hive. Some of the stuff they do in Georgia just does not not translate well, even when one is still in the South.


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## msl

> but I would rather take the queen away on 2 frames and leave the 18 frames make cells then return trip in 7-9 days to make the NUCs.


The issue with that is you get a large % of poor queens that way and 40% of them have no drone fathers represented in the hives traits. Sam feels only 20-30% of queens from "bust them up" after they draw cells are good, David Tarpy says on advrage a grafted (or swarm) queen is 50% better then a E-queen 


> All those in NE that use a two frame walk away in May please stand up.





> You don't even have to be as far north as NE. I have tried two frame walk away splits several times and never been sucessfull. Three or four frames, piece of cake


its a 3 frames and a shake... effectively a 4 frame split compressed in to 3 
"Nucleus hives (nucs) will be created by placing 2 frames of brood (including eggs), 1 frame of food (nectar and pollen) and a shake of bees into a nuc" 
2f boxes have horrible thermal values too much surface area to volume... on center seam of bees and the rest incontact withthe wall .. I wonder if they are truley using "frames" or sams warre type box hives run as duplexes, about 1/2 the volume of a lang deep per comb(6"x11", 4 combs per side

Sams work has shown micro splits are producing better queens as the bees chew down the poor ones and the beekeeper culls all capped ones at 4.5 days Vs when you break in to nucs they are stuck playing the hand you delt them 
much better queens







The walk away split portion is not the "control", its a test group, as is timing (note the june round) 

He touches in it all a little in at Apimondia 2019 https://youtu.be/z4qVLTTS4q4?t=631 



> BTW any one try shipping or driving 48hr cells last summer, have any feedback to share?


Post 41 and 43 only a short way, but it was a good proof of concept on transporting select genetics to a surrogate in a clubs (or a members) yard to be finished and then distributed to the members.


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## Litsinger

MSL:

You may have already seen this, but there is a video on YouTube where Ms. Dorothey Morgan is talking about how to implement a program very much in-line with what I think you have recommended. In her specific case, she is looking for colonies which exhibit at least 50% chewing behavior. In short:

1. She is encouraging everyone to check suspected feral stock and to let her know if they find any with chewing behavior above 50%.
2. She will then graft from your colony and give you a chewing queen from her stock in return.
3. She will sell you a virgin queen from her chewing stock for $25.
4. She will sell you an open-mated queen from her chewing stock for $50.
5. But what she would really like you to do is to get your club together and buy a minimum of ten (10) 48 hour cells for $10 / each and share them locally.

I would share the video, but I noted she has commented that she is not pleased that it is posted.

Russ


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## JWPalmer

Russ, the video is easy enough to find if you look for it, but I agree that it should not have been posted without her express permission. 
I was unable to get past the first few minutes of the presentation and stopped when she kept referring to treating with OA as "poisoning your hive". Sorry.


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## Litsinger

JWPalmer said:


> I was unable to get past the first few minutes of the presentation and stopped when she kept referring to treating with OA as "poisoning your hive". Sorry.


JW:

I certainly understand and I do not endorse her rhetoric.

That said, the main point I was trying to highlight was her proposed community approach to systematically working with others to disseminate desired genetics, which I think is something that MSL has been wisely suggesting for awhile.


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## JWPalmer

I wholeheartedly agree with the premise that beekeepers should engage in community wide efforts to propagate stock that demonstrates resistant behaviors, whether VSH or chewing, or whatever keeps the mites at bay. Perhaps I'll give the video another go after a couple of cold ones.


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## Litsinger

JWPalmer said:


> Perhaps I'll give the video another go after a couple of cold ones.


Fair enough- will this be a couple of your secret recipe mead concoctions?


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## msl

JW worth your time to at least put it on as a background podcast
So the speaker can only let the "good word" out if she is being payed to speak?
She is a bit ruff around the edges... but looks to be doing good work
Yes the basics of bees dosen't change and she is spot on as to what needs to happens to shift genetics... constant re queening with select genetics and haveing as big of a sample size as possible to find those high performing queens, and then make hundreds if not thousands of grafts form them. 

while she talks up the ferals, reserch on them hasn't show the high numbers she speaks of , https://projects.sare.org/project-reports/fne17-863/ found about a 10% average vs the 37% PMBB, sure there are some golden gosses out there, but over all they were sisticticaly simular to the comerical stock used as a contoral. Seems like chewed mites is the new "my hives make x pounds a year" fish story......

I have seen here point on box chewing before,Italian redline mite maulers come to mind... but I wonder why one would want to keep boxchewers in foam hives? seems like it could be an issue...lol


$10 a 48...wow... thats $160 a bar.... graft 2 bars a week... 
yep if only there was a market for them (hence my drum beating)... 
Got a line on a MBB breeder queen out of a hive with a verified chewing rate... maby I can pull the trigger this year and put my $$ were my mouth has been

Edit
another SARE on 48s(and 60s wondering what that's about) https://projects.sare.org/sare_project/onc19-062/ again right in line of what I have been talking about


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> Got a line on a MBB breeder queen out of a hive with a verified chewing rate... maby I can pull the trigger this year and put my $$ were my mouth has been


MSL:

With full sincerity I do hope you will get something developed in your area that can serve as a proof-of-concept for deployment on a larger scale. 

From the perspective of the hobbiest beekeeper I imagine some of the difficulty in paying big money for a resistant queen is understanding the value. 

With folks constantly bombarded with marketing that promises much and delivers little and with results that appear to be less-than-repeatible I imagine many folks are reticent to pay the premium.

That said, even if one had to pay $10 apiece for 48 hour calls that could be share locally and would serve as the foundation for truly resistant genetics into the local gene pool that seems like a small price to pay.


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## William Bagwell

Found the video with little difficulty. (add the word 'bee' after her name or you find an astrologer) Very surprised by the picture of a SHB tricking a bee into feeding it. Less so by the controversial one of a live mite on a dead bee. Both are apparently lucky photos as I have never seen or read of either.


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## JWPalmer

Yeah, the bees are benevolent jailers. They round up the SHB in little propolis corrals to keep them contained, but will feed them all summer long.


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## msl

> From the perspective of the hobbiest beekeeper I imagine some of the difficulty in paying big money for a resistant queen is understanding the value.
> 
> With folks constantly bombarded with marketing that promises much and delivers little and with results that appear to be less-than-repeatible I imagine many folks are reticent to pay the premium.


While there is always some one wanting to blow Sunkist moonbeams up your butt, there are plenty of solid and well tested bees out there, priced about the same as any other or a few bucks more.. Are they TF in "your" area... unlikely, but that goes for almost any bee you can order.. But on a landscape scale, taking steps to insure they live and throw drones will likely pay dividends down the road. resistance leads to less treatments, better survival leads to less mite bombs and that means less mite pressure, meaning less Resistance is needed and TF becomes more successful. We are in a full blown pandemic, when it slows we will need bees with useful traits, and those bees will be able to survive with less resistance then they need now

But people (hobbyists) buy bees in a frenzy panic that they will be sold out by jan and are willing to except what ever is available. Very few of them practice planed re queening, or bring in an order to stock nucs, when they need a queen its often an emergency and they will take what ever they can get. 
So almond bees rule the DCAs even in the areas with out the big boys, and will until locals chose to shift their genetics. In my area that just isn't going to happen with out a push. 

Last check on one site the guy 100' from me is down to 4 from 22 production hives mid summer. 2017 they took 100% loses.. before they arrived I was TF 
Post flow I treated and put wet combs on hives to clean out, instead they filled them ... any thought on were it was coming from in a dearth? bit of a waist all that TF honey contaminated, but I only had to feed the late splits in that yard :lpf: now that's mite pressure ...
I may have popped a lid or 2 this winter on non active boxs cause why not ... I have worked his hives as a favor in the past, read as put down yard wide robing as he got run off site by the bees and left dissembled hives open in a dearth an I got lit up stepping out of the truck to check mine (yes I did call 1st that time) he was going to "come back later, but if if i could fix it please do "
this time... looking at a moldy capped honey in dead outs... I realty did think about calling and suggesting he take steps to save resources... but then, what bees are going to rob him out?.... oh.... never mind...short of AFB there isn't anything elce he hasn't "gifted" me, what is to lose, I expect a "weird" early spring flow


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> In my area that just isn't going to happen with out a push.


Interesting (and sobering) story, MSL. I am sorry to hear about your troubles with a neighboring beekeeper. In an overarching sense it seems obvious that education and advocacy are in order on a community scale, but what to do about some of the factors (i.e selling of packages coming off of pollination contracts) on a regional/national scale that are outside of our control?

Ultimately I am left to conclude that I can only do the best I can with the proverbial hand I am dealt, which is why I admire your ambition to build something that will have more impact on a regional level.


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## Andhors

Very interesting news about 48 hr. QCs. Never would have guessed they are so hardy. But who are you going to get good queen cells from? I wouldn’t know who to trust. Anyone selling anything makes unverifiable claims and much of this is hard to observe without bias, let alone verify.


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## msl

> But who are you going to get good queen cells from? I wouldn’t know who to trust.


At $5-$10 a pop what are you worried about? Its low risk, and possibly high reward.
Option 1 Find a local beekeeper who graphs,has plenty of full sized production hives in the spring, and doesn't buy bees or swarm chase. 
Option 2 would be gather as many locals as you can and pick a few queens for next year based on mite counts 


> Ultimately I am left to conclude that I can only do the best I can with the proverbial hand I am deal


that is opposite of my point.. Tel Rehov has shown that beekeepers have been stacking the deck (importing improved genetics) for thousands and thousands of years.

that leads to Option 3 You can for the price of 2 packages bring in a breeder queen. You just need 10 people willing to buy 6 cells each at $5 a pop. Easy enough to make that volume of cells in a single run with a 5 frame swarm box starter on a Friday night for Sunday pick up 


> I am sorry to hear about your troubles with a neighboring beekeeper


Albeit with smaller yards I know of 6 more beekeepers with in 1.5 miles, sure there are more then that. The burbs can be as bad as being near a commercial set up... maby worse as the commercials take better care of there bees. 
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0142031


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> that is opposite of my point.. Tel Rehov has shown that beekeepers have been stacking the deck (importing improved genetics) for thousands and thousands of years.


MSL:

I appreciate your perspective and I do think I understand where you are coming from on this- and it is hard to argue with your logic.

Ultimately, should I personally find that the local swarm and trap-out stock I am working with is not up to snuff it seems plain to me that the only other sustainable alternative is to take control of either one or both sides of the genetic equation as you have advocated for.

This is why I appreciate the opportunity to read about the experiences of folks who are approaching this problem from different angles, including this idea of community genetic improvement efforts.


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## msl

yes, but lets not forget the flip side, you may find a golden goose!! And you will have the objective data to back it, % of chewed mites, etc
Have a plan for what to do if you succeed, many have found the real deal, only to have lost it.


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## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> MSL:
> 
> I appreciate your perspective and I do think I understand where you are coming from on this- and it is hard to argue with your logic.
> 
> Ultimately, should I personally find that the local swarm and trap-out stock I am working with is not up to snuff it seems plain to me that the only other sustainable alternative is to take control of either one or both sides of the genetic equation as you have advocated for.
> 
> This is why I appreciate the opportunity to read about the experiences of folks who are approaching this problem from different angles, including this idea of community genetic improvement efforts.


As the drone offspring run true to the Queen Linage, one can affect the drone pool, in 1 or 2 ways , likely more.
1) give away many of your best drone line 48hr cells to you neighbors at the bee meeting if each one can make 1 split then there are your drones out there all over.
2)Take a spin to a breeder who's genetics you may want in your area, Pick up 20 48 hour cells split the trip costs 3-5 ways and several folks have 3 -5 queens with the drones you wish to use as a group, to bring vigor into your normal lines.


As they get better at shipping, ordering 10 sam comfort cells , overnighted, suddenly becomes a viable option.
As these can be shipped, then placed into to fall NUCs ,overwintered, survivors are drone mothers for spring breeding.


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## Saltybee

How much jelly is left for the queen at arrival?
You may get good genes in a relatively poor queen. Nothing wrong with that as long as you have a plan.


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> yes, but lets not forget the flip side, you may find a golden goose!! And you will have the objective data to back it, % of chewed mites, etc
> Have a plan for what to do if you succeed, many have found the real deal, only to have lost it.


MSL:

Thank you for both the encouragement and the admonition. I can imagine the only thing worse than failure is initially succeeding only to lose whatever serendipitous mix of factors that worked initially. I have certainly tried to take your advice to heart to record as much data as I can in hopes it will be of some value in the future should it be necessary and/or beneficial to begin exerting some beekeeper-directed selection.

Keep up the good work in bringing clarity to this issue of selection for resistance traits.


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> As the drone offspring run true to the Queen Linage, one can affect the drone pool, in 1 or 2 ways , likely more.


Good point, Gray Goose. While I infer from my reading that there are some limitations to the influence that the drone has on the resultant genetics of a colony, the fact that they are a genetic copy of their mother seems to suggest that there are some important breeding advantages as a result. I suppose the moral of the story is that both sides of the genetic equation are vitally important...


----------



## msl

> the fact that they are a genetic copy of their mother seems to suggest that there are some important breeding advantages as a result


That is not true, but that's the internet for you.... likely a twisted version of the fact that drones spermatozoa are all the same(clones) do to being haploid. 

The drone gets 1/2 of his mother's genetics (16 out of 32 chromosomes) just like any other egg, There are 65,536 different chromosomal combinations for the queen to pass on to the egg, add in the recombination rate (witch is exream in bees) and its about 3.4 million combos (3,406,833)
But a fertilized egg gets ALL of the the drones (16 out of 16) DNA (or 1/2 of the drones mothers dna if you will ) . So on the drone side there are only as many different combinations as there were drones that mated with the queen.

This is why drones as a "filter" matter, to weed out poor combinations. As they are haploid there is no were for recessive genes to hide, they are expressed


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> That is not true, but that's the internet for you.... likely a twisted version of the fact that drones spermatozoa are all the same(clones) do to being haploid.


Thanks for the clarification, MSL. Sorry to sidetrack your thread. I see that this subject has been addressed extensively here on Beesource before:

https://www.beesource.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-316929.html


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## GregB

msl said:


> .......But a fertilized egg gets ALL of the the drones (16 out of 16) DNA ........


It this really true?

I always thought of "one-father-per-an-egg" is generally true.
Not "N-fathers-per-an-egg".
(Discounting any imperfections, such as random re-combinations and such).

For example, even the Wikipedia says "one-father-per-an-egg", if I understand this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_bee#/media/File:Haplodiploid_Sex_Determination_in_Honey_Bees.svg


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## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> It this really true?
> 
> I always thought of "one-father-per-an-egg" is generally true.
> Not "N-fathers-per-an-egg".
> (Discounting any imperfections, such as random re-combinations and such).
> 
> For example, even the Wikipedia says "one-father-per-an-egg", if I understand this:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_bee#/media/File:Haplodiploid_Sex_Determination_in_Honey_Bees.svg


each drone has its own family with 16 you would have 16 patra line all a different combo unless 2 of the drones are "brothers"


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> each drone has its own family with 16 you would have 16 patra line all a different combo unless 2 of the drones are "brothers"


You are talking of half-sister cohorts in the hive, I think.

Well, this is different from:


> ....But a fertilized egg gets ALL of the the drones (16 out of 16) DNA .


I can understand - "a fertilized egg *MAY *get *UP *to 16 paternal DNA sources intermixed" (due to re-combinations and such).

But predominantly, this is still a single mother/father pair per each fertilized egg - I am pretty sure (unless some revolutionary changes rendered the Wikipedia obsolete).

From the same Wikipedia article:


> The worker shares *half *her genes with *the drone*.


See "Queen-worker conflict"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_bee#Sexes_and_castes


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## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> You are talking of half-sister cohorts in the hive, I think.
> 
> Well, this is different from:
> 
> 
> I can understand - "a fertilized egg *MAY *get *UP *to 16 paternal DNA sources intermixed" (due to re-combinations and such).
> 
> But predominantly, this is still a single mother/father pair per each fertilized egg - I am pretty sure (unless some revolutionary changes rendered the Wikipedia obsolete).
> 
> From the same Wikipedia article:
> 
> See "Queen-worker conflict"
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_bee#Sexes_and_castes


Greg, so with 16 drones , assuming they are all "Unique" One could have 16 daughter Queens and have 16 different genetic queens and yes step daughters if you will. Thats why Bro Adam did 100s of daughters looking for 10 to carry on with. Some crosses are not worth a &%@* for sideliners a bit of a problem to ponder.
GG


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Greg, so with 16 drones , assuming they are all "Unique" *One could have 16 daughter Queens* and have 16 different genetic queens and yes step daughters if you will. Thats why Bro Adam did 100s of daughters looking for 10 to carry on with. Some crosses are not worth a &%@* for sideliners a bit of a problem to ponder.
> GG


Well, exactly.

But NOT have a single queen that *simultaneously *contains genes of the 16 fathers at once; or 20 fathers; or 25 fathers..... N fathers (a chance of that is approaching zero).
A single fertilized egg == a single queen.

And yet the statement deterministicly says exactly this:


> But a fertilized egg gets ALL of the the drones (16 out of 16) DNA .


This statement means a single queen has 16 fathers *at once.*
No?
What am I still missing?
What is the Google search string I am missing?  (I did try).


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## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Well, exactly.
> 
> But NOT have a single queen that *simultaneously *contains genes of the 16 fathers at once; or 20 fathers; or 25 fathers..... N fathers (a chance of that is approaching zero).
> A single fertilized egg == a single queen.
> 
> And yet the statement deterministicly says exactly this:
> 
> This statement means a single queen has 16 fathers *at once.*
> No?
> What am I still missing?
> What is the Google search string I am missing?  (I did try).


you got it, the statement "But a fertilized egg gets ALL of the the drones (16 out of 16) DNA " is untrue, or false depending on your point of view.


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> you got it, the statement "But a fertilized egg gets ALL of the the drones (16 out of 16) DNA " is untrue, or false depending on your point of view.


OR - MSL has some magic fresh sci. article up his sleeve.
Never know!


----------



## msl

WTF yall?


> The drone gets 1/2 of his mother's genetics (16 out of 32 chromosomes) just like any other egg, There are 65,536 different chromosomal combinations for the queen to pass on to the egg, add in the recombination rate (witch is exream in bees) and its about 3.4 million combos (3,406,833)
> But a fertilized egg gets ALL of the the drones (16 out of 16)


one missed apostrophe? realty guys?
it should read "Drone's" (as in the father's, or sire's) 16 chromosomes. 
basic bee math here, Russ provided a great link to subject mater. And we know from modern DNA studys that queens mate with far more then 16 drones 

Rewinding to Salty


> How much jelly is left for the queen at arrival?


I care less for shipping... plenty of ways to distribute genetics across state lines for a $$$... local distribution and use is very different.
That said, most have been shipped in JZBZ cups (Latshaw, Comfort, Kefuses) so any issuse "should" have been seen


> You may get good genes in a relatively poor queen.


and that good sir is the point of the sare grant, to answer the question of quality, while the experts claim you can make great queens this way.. no one has proved it in a large scale study, and what we "know" seem to change with such actions


----------



## Saltybee

what we "know" seem to change with such actions

And you get at my real pondering. On the face of it interrupting feeding would fly in the face of raising high quality queens. Must be a lesson in the the difference, though I have no idea what.


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> WTF yall?


With your typing, MSL, never know what you meant.
It can go either way.
Sorry, but it is really hard to read and follow the thought, IMO.
That is regarding the WTF.

All right, I suppose, I better do my "paid for job", not try to follow the BS too much on the top.


----------



## msl

> That is regarding the WTF.


fair eunff it was late...
but i kinda figgerd that at this point we had established the 16 chromosome thing



> On the face of it interrupting feeding would fly in the face of raising high quality queens


it would "seem" while feeding is interrupted, eating is not as the larva is in a very large pool of jelly 
24 hour cells 







48 hour cells







Pictures form david laferney's offsite version of the Josef Clemens system http://doorgarden.com/2011/11/07/simple-honey-bee-queen-rearing-for-beginners/

You can see why the 48s were chosen over 24s for transport, the cup is almost full of jelly and the larva is still to tiny to even get close to eating it all in a few hours... 
but as I noted, I haven't seen results empirically tested as to quality, so intill that happens a bit healthy skepticism is a good thing.
my "gut" says they are fine for a few hours out of a hive under beekeeper care, in a commercial package system full of box throwing monkeys (I worked in a sorting center one collage break) .... not so sure.
Dr Latshaw took 60% losses on over night shipping (12 out of 20) and the cell builder tore down 3 of the 8 that went in a 25% sucess rate, however he did package differently then people who say they have had great success so there is likely room for improvement on that number
however when driven about 30 min by a beekeeper, Latshaw saw a 95% success rate. This fits in nicely with my 20 min drive test that had 91% success rate


----------



## BigBlackBirds

msl said:


> fair eunff it was late...
> but i kinda figgerd that at this point we had established the 16 chromosome thing
> 
> 
> 
> it would "seem" while feeding is interrupted, eating is not as the larva is in a very large pool of jelly
> 24 hour cells
> View attachment 53285
> 
> 48 hour cells
> View attachment 53287
> 
> Pictures form david laferney's offsite version of the Josef Clemens system http://doorgarden.com/2011/11/07/simple-honey-bee-queen-rearing-for-beginners/
> 
> You can see why the 48s were chosen over 24s for transport, the cup is almost full of jelly and the larva is still to tiny to even get close to eating it all in a few hours...
> but as I noted, I haven't seen results empirically tested as to quality, so intill that happens a bit healthy skepticism is a good thing.
> my "gut" says they are fine for a few hours out of a hive under beekeeper care, in a commercial package system full of box throwing monkeys (I worked in a sorting center one collage break) .... not so sure.
> Dr Latshaw took 60% losses on over night shipping (12 out of 20) and the cell builder tore down 3 of the 8 that went in a 25% sucess rate, however he did package differently then people who say they have had great success so there is likely room for improvement on that number
> however when driven about 30 min by a beekeeper, Latshaw saw a 95% success rate. This fits in nicely with my 20 min drive test that had 91% success rate


in having a conversation with one of the folks that has suggested shipping 48 hour cells, i was reminded that its not really about quality so much as way to move stock as i had similar question. you arent trying to make a powerhouse production colony. essentially just creating a drone mother to produce replica drones for mating.


----------



## Gray Goose

Exactly BBB. Take the shipping out of it for a min, One could drive 4 hours ,Pick up 10-15 48hr cells, drive back, install them in 10-15 NUCs and in 30 days be producing drones for a couple rounds of queen mating, to bring in traits best passed from the Drone side. The producer can do a frame of Bars every 48hours, mathematically optimizing the number of drone mothers to spread into the breeding programs within a 4-6 drive from his site. A georgia queen breeder could even truck 4-6 hives to Montana and produce 100s of 48hr cells in a few weeks and head back, at the end of the month. Once a suitable mailing/shipping method emerges, then shipping them can also work. "Maybe Drones" to deliver these would be practical, (Small airplanes)" I once spoke with a gal who Drove Horse Sperm from northern Michigan to Kentucky every monday, for insemination on tuesdays. She was making like 20-30K a trip. If the reason is there, moving these cells would be done by someone. Floating on the Royal Jelly seems to be a robust time in the life of a queen, maybe we figure out a way to make that work. It may catch on, be interesting to watch.
GG


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## msl

> A georgia queen breeder could even truck 4-6 hives to Montana and produce 100s of 48hr cells in a few weeks and head back


yuck:bus
Why, if its a time of year cells can be localy produced and used, would you not want to get 48s from a local producer of winter hardy, mite resistant, locally adapted stock.


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## crofter

Feeding factor is one consideration and I am sure temperature and humidity would be another variable. It is suggested that exact temperature control is not critical either, but if it was controlled, as it easily could be in an a common incubator, the larvae might not be appreciably compromise at all.


----------



## Gray Goose

msl said:


> yuck:bus
> Why, if its a time of year cells can be localy produced and used, would you not want to get 48s from a local producer of winter hardy, mite resistant, locally adapted stock.


you could get what ever stock you wanted. BTW often northern folks have a place in the south where they take the breeder hives to get a head start on the year.
I do not know the Why I am only discussing the how, WHY is up to someone else.

GG
P.S. who is the local producer in Montana, to send out 48HR cells? Maybe need a directory for that. ..


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## Gray Goose

crofter said:


> Feeding factor is one consideration and I am sure temperature and humidity would be another variable. It is suggested that exact temperature control is not critical either, but if it was controlled, as it easily could be in an a common incubator, the larvae might not be appreciably compromise at all.


Road trip with 12V incubator to Guelph  or a plane ride
GG


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## msl

> Road trip with 12V incubator to Guelph or a plane ride


you want them cool, not warm. 


> P.S. who is the local producer in Montana, to send out 48HR cells? Maybe need a directory for that.


the next yard over from the Georgia queen breeder in your example :lookout:
can't help you with Montana but at least 3 in Michigan selling cells... 48 or other wise... one is advertising Canadian Buckfast 48s


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## crofter

"you want them cool, not warm." 

What is the optimal temperature then? Humidity? Light? I should have said under controlled conditions.


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## Gray Goose

msl said:


> you want them cool, not warm.
> 
> the next yard over from the Georgia queen breeder in your example :lookout:
> can't help you with Montana but at least 3 in Michigan selling cells... 48 or other wise... one is advertising Canadian Buckfast 48s


where did you see the 3 in Michigan?
thanks for the tip
GG


----------



## msl

http://northernbeenetwork.org/


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## BernhardHeuvel

msl said:


> 48 hour cells
> View attachment 53287


I would neither buy or sell such poorly developed 48 h-cells. :s Nor use them, since bad feeding doesn't produce good queens.

That's how those cells look like after 48 h and proper feeding:
























Larvae swim in a puddle of royal jelly:


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## gww

How much food do the bees actually put in the cell after 48 hours?
Cheers
gww


----------



## msl

GWW, quite a bit, It takes about 5x the amount of bees to finish feeding a 48 then it took to make it

Bernhard, I don't see a difference.. yes the nicot has a lot more plastic in the appliance making things look bigger/longer, but the wax rim past the plastic is about the same
in the JZBZ picture we can see the larva has been well fed and has plenty of excess jelly in the cup. for sure I have seen bigger, arguably any difference could be cells being 2days old and being called 48s as is common ... ie 48s +-8 hours depending on when they were grafted and when they were pulled Ie grafted friday evening and pulled Sunday mid morning 

Crofter, in Breeding Super Bees, Taber says "Eggs and newly-hatched larvae which have been separated from the bees will do best at 90-96% humidity and 33F. I have kept them on ice for more then 48 hours with no Ill effects" so likely close to that, but I don't think any one has worked out the "best" for this age group beyond dark,cool,damp. 
if refrigerated storage could extend there longevity it would be a boom... the ability to take to a weekend conference and hand out/sell on Sunday afternoon would be quite handy.


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## crofter

Wow! " _Taber says "Eggs and newly-hatched larvae which have been separated from the bees will do best at 90-96% humidity and 33F. I have kept them on ice for more then 48 hours with no Ill effects" so likely close to that"_

I was thinking a parallel with "chilled brood" mortality. At the 48 hr. stage that obviously does not apply.


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## gww

msl


> GWW, quite a bit, It takes about 5x the amount of bees to finish feeding a 48 then it took to make it


Thanks for answering my question.
Cheers
gww


----------



## Andhors

This is out dated, But punctuation CAN make a difference. I already wrote so I’m posting it! LOL!!

Don’t discuss “16 drones.” It confuses the discussion since there are 16 chromosomes. Use a different number or “n.”

Drones contain a randomly selected basket of their mother’s genes due to meiosis. Bits of her maternal and paternal genetic material. So as stated above, lots of possible variants. 

Another point of confusion is a typo in post #73. There should have been an apostrophe in “drones” to indicate 1 drone, not multiple drones. (ie. drone’s). 16 chromosomes from one drone. 

I hope this is clear as mud now.


See quote below.


“But a fertilized egg gets ALL of the the drones (16 out of 16) DNA (or 1/2 of the drones mothers dna if you will ) . So on the drone side there are only as many different combinations as there were drones that mated with the queen.”


----------



## msl

Lauri's method of re queening production hives with 48s 
https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...ening-above-an-excluder&p=1447471#post1447471

Interesting that she feels it often delays the offing of the old queen till the new one is laying. 

could be an interesting way to change out a packages genetics to resistant stock once local 48s come available, the package queen has a high chance of being superseded anyway.


----------



## msl

Larry Connor talking about 48s this may at a NY bee wellness webinar this may. including a snipit about john Kefuss overnighting 48s to pairs at 5 euros a pop 
https://youtu.be/SdJN0Hd4nuE?t=1607

and he gives us the answer to this 


gww said:


> How much food do the bees actually put in the cell after 48 hours?


the cells have 80%+ of the all the jelly they will get

My knee jerk is he is wrong, but he is the expert, not me


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## Litsinger

Good talk. MSL. Thank you for posting. Beyond his discussion on 48 hour cells, there were two other things he briefly referred to that surprised me:

1. He seemed to at least not dismiss the idea of different eggs being laid in queen cups versus worker cells- I assume he is referring to some of the research on 'royal families'.

2. He said that swarm cells are better than grafted cells- but also clarified that good grafted cells make good queens too.


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## BernhardHeuvel

Litsinger said:


> different eggs being laid in queen cups versus worker cells


https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0199124

Withrow JM, Tarpy DR (2018) Cryptic “royal” subfamilies in honey bee (Apis mellifera) colonies. PLoS ONE 13(7): e0199124. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0199124


----------



## Litsinger

BernhardHeuvel said:


> https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0199124
> 
> Withrow JM, Tarpy DR (2018) Cryptic “royal” subfamilies in honey bee (Apis mellifera) colonies. PLoS ONE 13(7): e0199124. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0199124


That's the one, Bernhard. Thank you for the assist.


----------



## msl

msl said:


> My knee jerk is he is wrong, but he is the expert, not me


looks like my knee may be r right ..

acording to Kuma 2015 https://www.researchgate.net/public...on_Royal_Jelly_Production_in_Apis_mellifera_L

a 72 hour cell has about 66% more jelly then a 48 (and thats not counting what the larva ate over those 24 hours)


----------



## Gray Goose

Litsinger said:


> That's the one, Bernhard. Thank you for the assist.


Intuitively it cannot be "random"
IMO there is more to queen rearing than just any fertilized egg..

GG


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## BernhardHeuvel

48 hour cells, ready to be shipped.


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## Gray Goose

wow looks like a big batch, is it 1 shipment?

do you add in some nurse bees?

GG


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> a 72 hour cell has about 66% more jelly then a 48 (and thats not counting what the larva ate over those 24 hours)


MSL:

Thank you for posting this paper- I finally got around to reading this one.

So it seems plain that 72 hour cells have more RJ in them so it made me wonder- why 48 hour cells? I went back and read Dr. Connor's paper where he quotes Kefuss saying to effect, 'large enough to be away from the colony, but small enough to not crawl out of the cell'. I suppose if one is dealing with short distance transfers and thought the additional jelly might be of benefit they could stretch this out another 12 hours or so and still leave time for the new colony to cap?


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## BernhardHeuvel

Yes, one shipment. I ship them regularly and with great success. No nurse bees needed. Just a damp paper towel, a sheet of plastic on top, so it doesn't dry out too quickly. Done. Overnight parcel service, works great.


----------



## BernhardHeuvel




----------



## msl

> During October 2020-January 2021 HW conducted an analysis of the data, and continues to finalize the analysis, in collaboration with AR, SC and BK. More detailed results and discussion will be added once the analysis is complete.
> 
> So far, it appears that all three queen rearing methods result in similar queens, who are equivalent in size and survival rate. This is surprising and exciting: we would expect 10-day queens to be far superior to queens raised through simpler walk-away or 48-hour methods. It suggests that we can raise high-quality queens using easier, less resource-intensive methods. This could make queen rearing more accessible to backyard beekeepers, and could dramatically enhance our ability to produce, disseminate and exchange northern-hardy genetics, ultimately improving the survival of honey bee colonies in the Northeast.
> 
> The next step is to finalize the analysis, and create outreach materials (including a video, fact sheet and presentation).





> n March 2021, we will upload the fact sheet and video to the UMass Extension pollinator resources page.








Final report for ONE19-326 - SARE Grant Management System







projects.sare.org




here is to next month


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## Gray Goose

msl said:


> Final report for ONE19-326 - SARE Grant Management System
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> projects.sare.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> here is to next month


interesting initial results, I am now more likely to do a walk away if needed for swarm prevention.

GG


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## Saltybee

There are walk aways and then there are walk aways. Or prep and no prep.


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## Gray Goose

Saltybee said:


> There are walk aways and then there are walk aways. Or prep and no prep.


mostly prep,, normally have 2 or 3 NUC setup in the truck when I inspect.
seems the time I do not have them the most beautiful queen cells are found.

and mostly holy crap look at all the QCs reactive splits.

a true walk away I do not often do, I only did 2 last year. too big too soon, and I could not come back for several days.

My favorite is to find charged QCs like small larvae, and a few with egg, find and pull the queen and 2 frames of bees.
go back in 8 days and do multi splits.

tons of ways

nice to see you online Salty hope you and yours are well.

GG


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## msl

Saltybee said:


> There are walk aways and then there are walk aways.


right and that's key to this 
they are calling them walk aways, but they are pulling a nuc and letting it raise a queen. not doing a walk away split witch is devind the 2 deeps and walk away, I hope they don't muddy the waters with their verbiage... ie there is now a trend that newbeeks are calling every box a "super"


----------



## crofter

This seems a bit contrary to the strategy promoted not too long ago suggesting that the odds for achieving the highest potentials of a queens genetics was enhanced by penning the queen for a few days to beget heavier eggs, using the very youngest eggs, assuring mature drones and optimum mating conditions etc. 

The resulting queens would have measurably higher weight and body measurements at emergence, higher ovariole counts, spermatheca (sp?) diameter and stored sperm count etc. My thoughts; perhaps the supposed advantage was more anticipated than actually measurable performance under normal conditions.

Is there a contradiction here or not?


----------



## msl

we have to weight and see what the raw tarpy lab results say as it will tell us not only how the queens compared to each other(weight, body mormametritics, sperm count, etc) , but also to the average commercial queen 

the "bees choice" queens as sam calls them, is the theory that when you don't cut out the cells and put in nucs and leave the hive as a unit, the best queen of the batch wins.. We know form Tarpy and others that when this happens about 50% of the cells are culled by the bees, and that those cells when caged and the bees not allowed to cull them result in poorer quality queens, so there is some active quality control. 

When you break into nucs, the bees are forced to play the hand you dealt them as they don't have a surplus of cells to chose form. you get a few good queens, some ok queens, and some piss poor ones, I have seen this in my operation when doing fly back splits, breaking the QE section in to nucs when the cells are drawn, and running them supered in common once mated. Differences in queen performance is very aparend in 2 queen hives were all else is = 

as for "contradiction" we have 2 different studies of 2 different methods and no replicats. One study is meaningless as it can say "anything", you need to look at the trend.. Ie you can find a study or 2 that says small cell has a small effect with european bees, but the vast majority say it doesn't 
so the jury is out till some more replicates. 

the question for the project isn't so much what way will make the best queens possible, its what is the easiest way to make a queen that's "good enuff" for backyard beekeepers so that more local stock is produced. 
to my knowledge this is the 1st to use objective metrics to look at the performance and quality of 48s and "walk away" queens and certainly the 1st to allow us to compare them on the national level to the product produced by large scale queen rearers.


----------



## Kamon A. Reynolds

"the question for the project isn't so much what way will make the best queens possible, its what is the easiest way to make a queen that's "good enuff" for backyard beekeepers so that more local stock is produced."

and it honestly wouldn't take much for those local queens to beat what is commonly found in a package queen or many commercial suppliers. I am planning to do some tests and videos on the 2 day cell method this year. Hoping it can encourage more local bee stocks as well.


----------



## Litsinger

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> Hoping it can encourage more local bee stocks as well.


MSL:

Thank you for the update. In my mind (and as as you observed), if it can be corroborated that:

_'...all three queen rearing methods result in similar queens, who are equivalent in size and survival rate.' _(and hopefully fecundity)

Then it removes one more excuse for Bee-havers like me to not propagate from their most promising stock. 

And as they note, _It suggests that we can raise high-quality queens using easier, less resource-intensive methods. This could make queen rearing more accessible to backyard beekeepers, and could dramatically enhance our ability to produce, disseminate and exchange ... _[locally-adapted]_ genetics.'_

Thanks again for posting.

Russ


----------



## Gray Goose

Russ

Then it removes one more excuse for Bee-havers like me to not propagate from their most promising stock. 

bingo

best 2 hives split, worst 2 requeened from the best 2 every year nice min starting point.

48hr cell make that even easier.

GG


----------



## Litsinger

Gray Goose said:


> 48hr cell make that even easier.


No argument from me, GG. I'd also like to try your idea of crowding them a bit to get some swarm cells- then you might the added benefit of letting them construct a purpose-built queen cell and choose the larvae destined for queen rearing.


----------



## msl

msl said:


> BWrangler said:
> letting 24 hour old queen cells set unattended, in a cool place, for two days. The bees readily accepted these cells and raised normal, healthy queens from them. That's how robust they are."
> Sam writes
> "The larval stage is the hardiest of the queen's whole life cycle. Cooler is better cause the slower metabolism means they'll eat less during travel."
> In Breeding Super Bees, Taber says
> "Eggs and newly-hatched larvae which have been separated from the bees will do best at 90-96% humidity and 33F. I have kept them on ice for more then 48 hours with no Ill effects"



I wanted to swing back to this after 2020s experiments
the ones I placed in a fridge at 37f for 24 hours and then put back in the builder did poorly, some were capped, none emerged. 95% of the control cells left in the builder emerged

I had success with transport and distribution of 24 hour cells, tho lower take(but too small sample size to draw any real counstions) . I brought them to a class in cooler with a ice pack, distributed them at the end as a surprise... those that took them had to go home and make up a nuc on the fly, some had a 2 hour drive and still had cells take... I want to say it was a 40% average, not bad as a stress test.. why 24hours..... I had made 120 grafts 2 days before the class that I was going to use, and had a zero take when I checked them a day later... yep queen rearing season was over in that out yard.. my little do all box on the side of the house to the rescue as it gets fed all season and thinks there is a flow!!

I have taken to teaching the KY Queen breeders method of cell install and that has worked well, allowing people to easily check acceptance by just lifting the cover.. if the cell isn't accepted the royal jelly gets cleaned out and you can clearly see what happens threw the jzbz cup. 


Fairly high success creating a replacement queen in a hive that was in a superseadgure mood, low success fixing LW hives



Litsinger said:


> Then it removes one more excuse for Bee-havers like me to not propagate from their most promising stock.


yep, as I said 3 years ago at the start of this thread


msl said:


> I see the 48 hour cell as a **** or get off the pot acid test for the TF movement, excuses (time, number of hives, ETC) are out the door, a keeper with one hive could make these cells and make a difference.
> If you have the "good stuff" we are all less for you not sharing. If your genetics are not up to stuff we are all less by you not supporting ($$) those that have it.


We don't have good local stock and or good local TF stock available because almost no one is making it, we need most people making for themselves,or at least getting it from those that do and have extra.


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> yep, as I said 3 years ago at the start of this thread


Thanks for the reply, MSL. That ultimately is why I made this comment- I was concurring with what you have been saying for awhile, backed up with further studies suggesting it is a viable option for resistance breeding on a backyard scale.

As a friend of mine in Illinois recently pointed out:

_'If you look at the number of small scale beekeepers it's huge numbers, the number of those attempting TF and breeding has to be impressive as well. The Illinois Apiary program has to submit and annual Apiary Report to the governor... If you look at the link below and scroll to Table 1, the 1-5 hives is almost 71% of the beekeepers in the state. The numbers quickly fall to where those with over 20 hives is less than 4%. Those with over 100 hives, which I consider the break point between hobbyist and sideliner, is less than 3/4 of a percent. With all those "little" apiaries and their keepers experimenting, it's a significant amount of experimentation and potential for serendipitous ah ha discoveries. Getting that discovery out and having the data/documentation backing it up is a different story but ....'_

Annual Apiary Reports - Bees And Apiaries (illinois.gov)

Or as Dr. John Kefuss points out, _"There's gold waiting to be mined in these apiaries."_


----------



## crofter

For certain being able to easily produce queens and have them available encourages culling anything questionable and experimenting. Having young queens head your colonies is a lot easier to do when you dont have to open your wallet for a $50. It hurts when one of them does not get accepted.


----------



## msl

Litsinger said:


> There's gold waiting to be mined in these apiaries


there most certainly is, I am building a sluice as we speak, I am quite aware I am not going to find it in my stock, my sample size is to small, but if I a organize a army of backyard beekeepers !

But the problem has never been finding the golden goose (you have it, GWW has is, as do many, many others)
The problem has been propagation and distribution in sufficient volume, followed by the end user doing what it takes so they stay alive and thow healthy drones so we can take back the DCAs and thats really the key here... 48s are drone seeds

I can't impact the DCAs with my volume, but if I a organize a army of backyard beekeepers !

I can hope and dream right? Its doomed to fail, beekeepers for some reason refuse to work together


----------



## Litsinger

msl said:


> I can't impact the DCAs with my volume, but if I a organize a army of backyard beekeepers !


MSL:

For what it is worth, you are doing as much as anyone I know in working collaboratively with beekeepers in your area to share genetic material.

Beyond that, you are helping to get the word out concerning an approach that is showing some real promise to assist in changing the genetic landscape on a backyard scale, and this is important.

As with most things, I expect education and advocacy are likely the most efficacious things one can do initially, beyond leading by example.

Otherwise, maybe it would be helpful to look for opportunities for more collaboration with other individuals and organizations who share similar goals and objectives to both amplify the message and also share in lessons-learned.

You mentioned the Kentucky Queen Bee Breeders Association. I noted that Ms. Dorothey Morgan is organizing a series of statewide grafting seminars to both help backyard-scale beekeepers learn how to graft and also to help disseminate good material among the participants (see below). Maybe something like this could be organized in Colorado?

_Here are the dates and times, more information to come
Evening Zoom classes, 7pm to 9pm
March 24, 25, 26
In person in several locations on the 27th
Frankfort 
Pikeville
and still working on Western KY
In person event will have a fee.
This will include grafting from top mite chewing stock.
grafting stand
grafting tool x2
grafting bar, cups and frame
These will be yours to take home.
You will need to bring one very strong nuc to put your grafts into.
If you are interested in this event please email me at [email protected]
Thanks,
Dorothey_


----------



## GregB

msl said:


> I can't impact the DCAs with my volume, but if I a organize a army of backyard beekeepers !
> I can hope and dream right? Its doomed to fail, beekeepers for some reason refuse to work together


Said our local TF enthusiast just last night on the "local bee" discussion:
(he's been at it *years *before I showed up with my traps)



> ........ the local bees are little more than a bunch of miticide-addicted packages and nucs from the commercial machine.
> We need more than just a couple people interested in changing this or it will never happen. Still, it is likely to be difficult, because the commercial machine will keep pumping bees on life-support into the state.
> Bee Weaver bees are better a better option than most of the packages you're likely to get, but *without bigger plan, sustained success isn't likely.*


----------



## msl

Never been a fan of Bessetti my self


----------



## msl




----------



## Gino45

I'm sure the 48 hour cells will work, but using them maybe 10 days or so of egg laying time is lost when compared with putting in 9 or 10 day old cells. Also, I would think the bee in the nuc would probably try to raise their own queen while waiting on the installed 48 hour cell. That's nothing new but they might just opt for their owncell given the minimal age difference.
Time is money, so they say, and this is a time issue, IMO. And time is why we graft or install cells instead of doing walk away splits.


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## RayMarler

Thanks so much msl
Very good report, very well done video.


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## msl

Gino45 said:


> I'm sure the 48 hour cells will work, but using them maybe 10 days or so of egg laying time is lost when compared with putting in 9 or 10 day old cells.





Gino45 said:


> Time is money, so they say, and this is a time issue, IMO. And time is why we graft or install cells instead of doing walk away splits.


arguably no time is lost, if they are grafted on the same day the queen starts laying at the same time whether its finished in the cell builder..
the loss is in cycle time (8 days longer in the nuc) and it takes more bees per nuc to use the 48s as bob showed... Ie I found minis finish them very poorly even when stocked at 2x the normal denieisty (2 cups)
this matters to the big queen rearear looking to max production, it matter much less to the hobiest who is gooing to grown out the nuc

I don't see this being a thing for queen/nuc producers
but for genetic distribution its a low cost way for a hobbyist to raise a few queens that would cost them $50+, using their time and bees instead of money.. and the change from making a split and leting them raze a queen as many do to making the split and adding a 48 is very minor and non scary to the hobbyist..


I like to think of 48s as "queen seeds"
Some gardeners buy seeds and start them in their window sill, some buy started plants at a steep markup vs the cost of the seed..
some share thier seeds...
you pay the queen rearer about a $1 a day for the time they have invested in the queen, in some cases it may benefit you to buy 48s for $5-$10 and let your own bees do the work


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## Litsinger

Good video, MSL. Thanks for sharing. Kent Williams strikes again...

How is your club program developing?


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## msl

It went well enough, touched a lot of keepers and brought the concept of caging swarm cells and using mini nucs to the forefront 

sadly the 48 project didn't get rolled late June as planed
My VP queens VSH carny breeder was a no call, no show (was supposed to arrive early June, no word from the seller, my queen season is ofer and the derth is around the coner)
and work came back with a vengeance June 19 ... dyeing of thirst to drinking from a fire hose... after 16 mounths of no work it went to working 10-12 hr days and only 3 days off in the last 30


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## Gino45

msl said:


> arguably no time is lost, if they are grafted on the same day the queen starts laying at the same time whether its finished in the cell builder..
> the loss is in cycle time (8 days longer in the nuc) and it takes more bees per nuc to use the 48s as bob showed... Ie I found minis finish them very poorly even when stocked at 2x the normal denieisty (2 cups)
> this matters to the big queen rearear looking to max production, it matter much less to the hobiest who is gooing to grown out the nuc
> 
> I don't see this being a thing for queen/nuc producers
> but for genetic distribution its a low cost way for a hobbyist to raise a few queens that would cost them $50+, using their time and bees instead of money.. and the change from making a split and leting them raze a queen as many do to making the split and adding a 48 is very minor and non scary to the hobbyist..
> 
> 
> I like to think of 48s as "queen seeds"
> Some gardeners buy seeds and start them in their window sill, some buy started plants at a steep markup vs the cost of the seed..
> some share thier seeds...
> you pay the queen rearer about a $1 a day for the time they have invested in the queen, in some cases it may benefit you to buy 48s for $5-$10 and let your own bees do the work


What I was referring to is the fact that all the queens could be raised by one hive while the others are continuing to produce brood up until the splits are made or queens are removed from the individual hives. Thus, IMO, using the 48 hour queens means more hives or bees without a laying queen.

Sometimes when using cells, they fail for one reason or another, It is normal for nucs, if they has the eggs or young larvae, to raise their own. They often continue this even after the virgin has emerged. But this takes a full month before they have a new laying queen, and only if they are successful in getting a mated queen. One month vs 2 weeks. That is what I was thinking about. And this is also why queens are produced in mass in the first place , since it is probably a more efficient use of resources .No hard feelings. Perhaps I didn't explain my ideas well.


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## msl

Gino45 said:


> What I was referring to is the fact that all the queens could be raised by one hive while the others are continuing to produce brood up until the splits


a colony population growth is more or less linear after 4 frames and the main constraint is the queens laying rate. This is why "palmers" work... same amount of bees, same foot print, but double the queens = double the population growth/brood to harvest
so taking a 3 frame split out this week doesn't change the pop growth vs taking it out 7 days later, leaving it queen less for a day and droping a cell



Gino45 said:


> Thus, IMO, using the 48 hour queens means more hives or bees without a laying queen.


perhaps, but how many bees are tied up in the cell builder for those 8 extra days, bees that could have made 4 more rounds of 48s?



Gino45 said:


> One month vs 2 weeks


I am unsure what bee math your using... the difference between a 2 day cell and a 10 day cell is 8 days, if you pull the nuc a day earlier as is normaly done with ripe cells (and not needed for 48s) as many do the difference is 7 days..
but in the end there is no difference as the cells are grafted on the same day

I get the perception that the bees are sitting idle and not being "productive" for longer but the spit 7 days earyer to make a nuc is not going to make much difference to the (fullsized) hives over all growth..

Now the flip side is context, so you have to step out side of convention.. I would never do what bob did in the video, for all the reasons you point out.
I would never put a ripe cell in a newbees hands(and most don't have access to ripe cells).. and you have to be gental, keep them warm, etc ... and unless your dumping them in a mini nuc with a cup of bees using virgins is beyond the skills of many mid level beekeepers.

but the robustness of 48s and easy of use with a compacted time line ( graft thus after work, pickup sat afternoon) shines threw, as the dose the price point.. I have ended classes/talks asking for a show of hands... "who can go home right now and pull a nuc?" and start handing out 48s to those who raised their hands... home work is powerful stuff, and cost me pennies and a bit of bee resources.


Gino45 said:


> No hard feelings. Perhaps I didn't explain my ideas well.


not at all !! I am not a fan of an echo chamber.

buying seeds, buying seedlings, buying flowering/fruiting plants in patio pots all has a spot in hobby gardening as shown by the big box stores, they sell all three.

But the true gold is the heirloom strains..
I am 1900 miles from home, yet I have Egyptian(walking) onions gifted to my mother by a new nehobor when my parents bought there 1st house in 71, my family treat cuts and sun burns with my grandmothers Aloe.

48s are to beekeeping as cuttings and seeds are to gardeners

There is a time to buy a tree , there is a time to barter for some heirloom seeds.
one side of beekeeping does do too much of the 1st, the other side pins way to much hope on the weeds the wind blows in to our yard(swarms) that live, but what value are they to us?

I spend a lot of time chopping thistle out of one yard.. its "edible", survives all I can throw at it, and has for a decade, but I can't find any high end salad joints to pay me for it.


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> It went well enough, touched a lot of keepers and brought the concept of caging swarm cells and using mini nucs to the forefront


As I have said before, I applaud you for taking the initiative. There will no doubt be failures and disappointments along the way, but there will also be successes and progress made. Keep up the good work.


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## Litsinger

msl said:


> buying seeds, buying seedlings, buying flowering/fruiting plants in patio pots all has a spot in hobby gardening as shown by the big box stores, they sell all three.


Great analogy- selecting the appropriate tools and the resources we need that meet our unique mix of time, money, experience, capabilities and preferences to meet our specific goals.


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## sparkyApis

msl said:


> Not going to lie the learning curve on grafting is kicking my but..... I am working on a cellpunch/cut comb set up using split cell holders that may work for 2 day cells....not ready for prime time yet


I was wondering if this idea has progressed any further? I browsed the rest of the thread and did not see any follow up on it. The entire approach seems to me to be a winner in the right place and good videos to explain it. Thanks.

Sel.


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## Litsinger

Sel:

I do hope that MSL will update us when he can, but I know from following their FB page that they had what appears to have been a very productive first year:









CSBA Club Level Queen Rearing Program | Facebook


Welcome to the FB page for the Colorado State Beekeepers Association's Club Level Queen Rearing Program. This will serve as the point of contact and information depository for the local club level...




www.facebook.com





If the link doesn't work, look up: csbaqueenrearing


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## sparkyApis

Thanks Russ, call me old fashioned but FB is a place I choose not to go. I will wait in hope for msl to come back here. I thought the 48 hour cell concept coupled with a cell punch harvesting of larvae may be even more accessible for a backyard scale operation.

Sel.


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## msl

I hear you about FB but its hard to beat for free file storage for the word/PDFs and to host the videos etc.. easy admin changes etc
If you want to engage younger beekeepers its the place to be...
I was once talking with a club and they told me they didn't see a need for a FB page as none of there members were on FB... they couldn't see it was aa self fulfilling prophecy as active FB members went to other clubs, not knowing this club was even out there.

Never finished up the cell punch project.. like the bottle cap system Greg V was working with I started to wonder about the need/use fullness of it. I don't see production of 48s really having a place in a backyard scale, aside form getting them for some were elce as a way to bring in enhanced gentilics 

as cell punch means wax or foundation less, for a backyard scale it would seem far easer to just cut out the ripe cells, or cage the cells if on plastic foundation and use virgins as we did with the state program.

Russ' take on the program is quite kind..but to me it fell very short 
It did get some information trickle down in to the local clubs as intended, and caging queen cells to save them become a commonplace topic on the local FB pages.. so on that end it meant the educational *goles which was the primary aim *

But in all... maybe 1 culb successfully made queens...the rest of the " success" was people using it in there personal beekeeping to start selling queens(learning grafting by them selfs).. that's good as it means more local queens for sale, bad as it makes me less willing to put the time and effort in to training when people when they just use it for personal beekeeping (and to go in to competition with me) and not give back to the club system.

Out of the 3000+ beekeepers who were contacted and invited to participate in the very basic selection prosses of mouthy mite counts we revived a grand total of 0 responses... guess on one really cares enough to lift a finger (no surprise there ).

The single box front range cell builder concept seems to have been fully valuated (2 years of success in the hands of others) so my focus next year is a micro breeders program using it in a grafting configuration (as people who are willing to learn to graft seem to be those motivated enough to be successful ) and charging for training to weed out the feild and as to compensating my self for my time..


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## sparkyApis

Gotta watch those mouthy mites, never know what they are going to say next.  
No doubt that FB has its uses, I just have never needed it enough to want to support it. 

Thanks for the info though. I suspect we would have the same problem getting a cooperative project going over here. There is not even a local group that I have been able to find even though I know there are several keepers.

Off to read about Front Range cellbuilders now.

Sel.


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## msl

sparkyApis said:


> Off to read about Front Range cellbuilders now.











Front Range Cell Builder a "do all box"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG0SKWlu58k Basically its 3x3x3 queen castle box with a modified bottom board and some add ons Features Queen less starter Queen right finisher larva timing box Nursery (Incubation, emergence, banking) Lastly (and most importantly to me) its a net gain system...




www.beesource.com






https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgQiNa-0JkK4237_5dpmxFg/videos


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## Litsinger

sparkyApis said:


> Gotta watch those mouthy mites, never know what they are going to say next.


Funny, I didn't pick up on this until you pointed out.

At this point, I feel compelled to make another shameless plug for Roger Patterson- I think he has put forth some of the more commonsense advice I've heard concerning community breeding efforts. If only we could get more research institutions like the UofG (and maybe Purdue) interested in partnering with local beekeepers to invest in regional breeding programs...


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