# Sticky  How I plan on overwintering 40 mating nucs on mini frames



## gmcharlie

interestresting plan.. I am trying some of teh shamrock mateing nuces this winter. they are devided into fours. double deep, but small clusters. but since there is 4 clusters....

We shall see


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## sqkcrk

Lauri,
I would have thought that the bees would have trouble getting to the underside of the feeder jars,having to stick their tongues through the screen. Apparently they do just fine.

Very good looking setup and plan. Things should work out well for you.


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## Lauri

The Shamrock mating nuc is too thin walled for overwintering here. I average 40 degreewinter temps, but get down to the teens at times. 

Mark, I'm breeding those long tongued bees ya know. LOL, seriously, you have to invert the lid of the jar or they can't reach it. 










They'll all get sugar blocks whether they need it or not. I have had good luck with this method and will write more about it when we get closer to the season for winter feeding.

I'm feeding 1:1 right now until the frames get drawn and the queen has filled them well with brood. Then I'll switch to 2:1 for fall weight. If needed, I'll take capped honey from other large hives that are also on the half deeps. I have several to take extra resources from.


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## squarepeg

very cool lauri, thanks for sharing.


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## marshmasterpat

Like what you are doing. Like Squarepeg said, Thanks for sharing.


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## Vance G

You do a first rate job on your bees and equipment but I wonder if the bees would abandon a queen worth staying with. I regularly use a miller feeder over a queen excluder to feed two and three nucs in a divided ten frame deep. Of course I have brood to hold bees but abandonment drifting just doesn't seem to be an issue.


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## Lauri

Thanks for the input. I just had the experience of overwintering doubles last year and many ended up with one side packed full of bees, the other side empty. I just assumed they jumped ship as these were my only winter 'losses'. I assumed one queen was more actively laying in the winter months than the other and thus prefered. 
Do you let the colonies mingle in the summer or winter months?

I rarely bank mated queens or virgins, but when I have, I see a clear favoritism by the nurse bees for some queens, some queens ignored. They are always the same age, from the same batch of grafts. If I don't have room for all in mating nucs, the 'favorites' are always installed before the others.

I have observed a lot this summer and will be writing about it in winter months when I have time. I did not raise as many queens as I had hoped due to bad weather and 2 virgins getting into my only starter...Hopefully those that wanted queens will get them next year. Trust me, I'm working on it!


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## Adrian Quiney WI

Lauri, in post #4 you say you might put a frame of honey from your larger colonies in the nucs if they need it. I would anyway even if you are not sure, because there may be some health benefit to the overwintering bees to have some pure honey in addition to sugar syrup to overwinter on. 
I do appreciate the time you take to post up and write about what you do. That to me is the beauty of beesource - sharing.


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## Lauri

I agree Adrian. I let my bees keep their honey and prefer not to harvest until winter is almost over. When I checkerboard above the broodnest in early spring in the large hives that have not been fed syrup, I will take the surplus honey then. Even then, I save it for future feeding until the next flow starts. Remember, my interest is in raising queens, not harvesting honey yet. 
But I do have a LOT of honey on the frame out there. It's been a great year for honey production in my area. I estimate I have a ton and a half of 'surplus' honey in the hives right now. I may change my mind about this method of management as I get more experienced though. This is just what I am doing this year. I'm not really sure how to manage all those resources, so I let the bees take care of it for me for now.

Some of my large hives are on mini frames, but I also threw on a deep with mini frames on some of my production hives to get drawn out and filled this summer. Frames going different directions? MERCY! Hee hee, they absolutely don't care and don't make a mess. These are my planned resources for the mating nucs if they are needed. 










I wish I had thought of this configuration of overwintering sooner. (Overwintering condos) I'm only feeding syrup to get the new frames drawn and filled. It's late in the summer and they are doing a good job of it.


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## Lburou

gmcharlie said:


> ... I am trying some of the shamrock mating nucs this winter. they are devided into fours. double deep, but small clusters. but since there is 4 clusters....We shall see


I'm probably going to do the same, but may only make two divisions in the shamrock hives. 



Lauri said:


> The Shamrock mating nuc is too thin for overwintering here. I average 40 degree winter temps, but get down to the teens at times... snip...


FWIW Charlie & Lauri, I wintered a 10 frame colony in a Shamrock box last winter with a piece of tar paper around three sides, and the bees did just fine. The bees have done well this summer as well. Winter lows here at my house were around 10 F (maybe 5 days), and highs this summer were 110+ F (18 days so far). I'm pleasantly surprised, that these three Shamrock hives are working out better than expected -AFTER, dipping the half frames in hot wax myself.




Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Lauri......I do appreciate the time you take to post up and write about what you do. That to me is the beauty of beesource - sharing.


I appreciate your reports as well Lauri, your report gives me courage to winter along the same lines as you and gmcharlie.


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## Vance G

I need to add your experience into the mix on the bees drifting in all your wintered doubles. I have read accounts by a couple Canadian commercial beeks who routinely winter two five frame nucs with a shared food source. I intend to try more of it this winter. It worked on a limited basis for me last winter. All my splits are grown out in double screened bottom duplex and triplex divided ten frame deeps over a strong colony. I put a queen excluder over them and a miller feeder on top that they share quite successfully. I do not disregard your experience and it makes me doubt my plan. I may just super them with a divided upper and let them fill that with stores. It is ALL local what works for you may not work for me and vice versa. Yes I was looking forward to getting some queens from you this year. Keep me in mind for next season please. I am filling an isolated yard with mite biters and groomers that I am buying where I can find them. Vance



Lauri said:


> Thanks for the input. I just had the experience of overwintering doubles last year and many ended up with one side packed full of bees, the other side empty. I just assumed they jumped ship as these were my only winter 'losses'. I assumed one queen was more actively laying in the winter months than the other and thus prefered.
> Do you let the colonies mingle in the summer or winter months?
> 
> I rarely bank mated queens or virgins, but when I have, I see a clear favoritism by the nurse bees for some queens, some queens ignored. They are always the same age, from the same batch of grafts. If I don't have room for all in mating nucs, the 'favorites' are always installed before the others.
> 
> I have observed a lot this summer and will be writing about it in winter months when I have time. I did not raise as many queens as I had hoped due to bad weather and 2 virgins getting into my only starter...Hopefully those that wanted queens will get them next year. Trust me, I'm working on it!


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## gmcharlie

I do intend to wrap the shamrock in foam insulation board.....

As for nucs mixing in the summer, bad idea every one of my split 10 frames that allows bees to escape or go around, has issues. fighting and migration to one side or the other.


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## Lauri

Wrapping the shamrock should work. It is really a decent buy and a neat product, considering it includes the top and bottom and all the frames. I considered trying them, but since I have more time than $$, I built my own.
Let us know how it goes.

Vance, I believe I read that too about the Canadians. Although I can't find that web site anymore. I thought maybe it didn't really work and they removed it. The theory of letting the bees feed together and equalize is good, but I had far more doubles eventually end up over on one side than I had occupying both sides come late winter. But that was just my experience here.


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## Velbert

You will have some very nice nucs
come spring time.










Going to winter these just made splits i will put on another box when i get a laying queen going.we don't get as cold as you a few nights in teens and single degree but more like 20 to 30 lows

Been using my strong mini nucs when i pull a queen to raise a few cells.

TAP PICTURE ITS A VIDEO


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## Hilltop

Very nice pics and explanation. They gave me some good ideas


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## Velbert

Picture of my 4-1/2 frame length mini nuc with brood that will make up winter cluster
Most have 2 frames like this and side frames have about 1/2 that amount of brood this will winter great still bringing in goldenrod nectar and pollen. Some brood in top box with honey.








http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g307/vlwbee/20131004_113232.jpg


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## Jared.Downs

Having no experience with mating nucs; but incredibly interested in learning more about this. 

Is there a benefit to the 5 "half" frame mini mating nucs (that Lauri is using) rather than using 2 or 3 full size frames?

In FatBeeMan's videos, he uses an 8 frame box with 3 partitions to divide the box into 4 2-frame colonies for rearing or mating queens. Wasn't sure if there was a difference or what every one's experiences show. 

More specifically in the FatBeeMan's videos:
Part 1- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-c6MQbEs14
Part 2- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y6fztFLcNw

Thoughts?


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## Velbert

There is some bad points on all of them.
I have tried quads, 6 packs deep 10 frame hives with 3 frames per box
Single shallow, Deep singles and Medium singles with bottoms nailed on bottoms

The quads or 6 packs they have a lot of hidding places for small hive beetles,if one compartment gets robbed out and you restock it they will usually get rerobbed out.the grooves you cut in the ends for your dividers they are hard to take out after a few months with bees in them. If the beetles take over 1 compartment its hard to clean up if you don't watch they will spread to the other compartments.

I like Singles best of all I tried
They all will work some just need more detailed care and it also depends what you plan to do on which one will work best for you.

I got a few YouTube vlwbee123 do a search

The queen castle has the same issues as the quads or 6 packs with one more added problem the narrow spacing to to get queen out if she happens to be on the bottom or side wall which happens more than you would think


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## Velbert

Jared

I think you will like the ones Lauri has built better.
Hers are better for overwintering and your not having to restock each unit every spring some might not make it but most will if they have plenty of bees and stores.


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## Jared.Downs

Velbert said:


> There is some bad points on all of them.


Thanks for your input. Great stuff.

As far as I know, I don't believe we have to worry as much about SHB in New Hampshire? Only my first year so I'd need other NH beeks to confirm that but I haven't seen any here. I think it's one of the trade offs due to our harsh winters.

But great points about the slots being very small for getting your hand in.

Does anyone see problems with how small the clusters would be? For example if I took a 10 frame box and divided it into 5 two-frame colonies and tried over wintering that


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## Velbert

I wouldn't even try a 2 frame. 3 frame DEEP i would try I am futher south a good pint size cluster when it is about 25 or 30 degrees works real well here. Where you are at i would want a quart size cluster. Then it might be iffy.


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## Lauri

Heres how those nucs are progressing in the OP. 

Remember, I moved the mating nucs into these double colony box's, therfore loosing some of the foragers
This was taken about 8-15-13:









Here it is on 10-1-13:










I was gone for 2 weeks hunting in Idaho, so it was not fed quite as consistantly as I wanted. But there is lots of brood, so should be plenty of young bees to overwinter. I like the half sized deep frames because they have more* Interior* surface area than large frames. More interior means warmer brood nest and more brood.

Yes, I got my elk, if you are interested:0


















Here is my buddies nice 6 PT.










https://www.facebook.com/pages/Miller-Compound-HoneyBees-and-Agriculture/256954971040510


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## David LaFerney

Lauri said:


> Thanks for the input. I just had the experience of overwintering doubles last year and many ended up with one side packed full of bees, the other side empty.


I've had the exact same experience overwintering side by side 4 frame mediums.


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## Velbert

My Mini Nuc's

http://www.YouTube.com/user/vlwbee123


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## KevinR

What is the point of the spacer with the screen on this bottom? Is this just so you can add the feeder jar setting top of the screen?

I saw that some of your lives have the hole cut to support the jar, but I didn't see this in the spacer/screen set up.


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## Lauri

Those are my screened inner covers. I make them with 3/4 x 3" material so I can ether fill it with insulation or flip it over to accomodate a sugar brick. If I feed on the screen, I add an empty super to cover the inverted mason jar. With this 3" rim, I can use a half gallon jar. With a 1 1/2 rim on the screened iner cover, I can only fit a quart jar when covered with a shallow super.



















Be sure to poke your holes in the jar lid, then flip it over and attach the band, so the bees can reach the syrup through the screen.


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## BeeCurious

Should half frame deeps really be called "mini frames"? 

When the half deep frames are 5, 6, or more times larger than the small frames in Styrofoam mating nucs it seems that they would be called something other than "mini". 

There's other small frames which seem to fit in the "mini" category, but to someone who uses all mediums, a half frame deep doesn't seem mini-ture.


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## Daniel Y

I call anything 5 frame deep or medium a nuc. I am starting to call anything less a micro colony or mini nuc. I see Laurie's post more of a response to how to get a mini nuc to a 5 fame box. Which is basically exactly what she is doing here. It shows the progression of how to start with mini frames and continue with those frames to larger compartments. For some the end goal would be to have the bees moved to a full size hive. so somewhere in that progression the name of the hive they are in will change. I would say it shows how to go from mini mating nuc to nuc. Now I am interested in how they go from nucs to 10 frame boxes. I see one way already possibly. just place a box over these mini frames that have full size fraems in them. next spring the bees move up while expanding and you have 5 full frames complete with brood and bees to move to a full size hive. Leaving you with filled out mini frames ready for queen introduction.


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## Lauri

If you look on this thread, I recently posted some photos of larger standard 10 frame deeps modified to hold the deep half frames. You can stack these into a full size standard hive and do many configurations with them, including half deeps AND standard deeps..all in the same box. Scroll down for new photos:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290656-Mini-Mating-Nuc&p=1016188#post1016188

There are advantages and disadvantages to each, when Dividing a 10 frame deep hive body. Divide in half with 10 frames on each side holds more frames and two colonies, but to expand you need to have seperate small custom deeps above the main base body. Placing another divided deep above is possible, but is a real pain in the neck to work. Keep everything seperate above the divided two colony base hive body, including inner covers. Common lid though. 

Dividing the 10 frame deep hive body for one colony with 12 or 13 half sized deeps only holds one colony, but you can use in interior feeder with it, feed them standard frames of honey, and can stack them to the sky with no problems. In fact, these deeps stacked 5 or 6 high overwinter exceptionally well in a 'Tower' type hive. Tall and narrow but more stable than several 5 frame nuc box's stacked that high. Remember, you can stack mini's over/under standards in any way you want.


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## Lauri

If I said micro nuc, mini nuc, mini deep nuc, would you would understand the size of the frame correctly? I want to mention I use_* deep*_ mini frames so people trying to use them to stock their nucs or overwinter will know I have more 'meat' to my frame and make their's the same strength. 
5 mini deeps are equivalent to 2 1/2 deep standard frames and so on. 4 mini top bar frames would be equivalent to about 1 deep frame I would say. That's BIG difference in volume


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## BeeCurious

Lauri said:


> If I said micro nuc, mini nuc, mini deep nuc you would understand the size correctly.



"Split Deep" seems like a much more accurate name...


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## Flyer Jim

BeeCurious said:


> "Split Deep" seems like a much more accurate name...


Did you split that deep the long way or the short way? :scratch:

One way you use full size frames and the other half size.


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## BeeCurious

Flyer Jim said:


> Did you split that deep the long way or the short way? :scratch:
> 
> One way you use full size frames and the other half size.


And neither one would approach the size of what is normally considered a mini frame. 

The deep frames divided vertically ("SPLIT", in the middle) and used in mating nucs could be considered "Jumbos" when compared to the commonly known mini mating nuc frames.

In the future, new beekeepers may find it curious that all nonstandard mating nuc frames were called "mini" regardless of their size...


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## sqkcrk

A friend of mine makes comb honey in medium depth supers w/ two divisions along the length of the super. So, instead of one frame he has three where one would be. He calls them "Mini Frame Combs".

What are we supposed to call normal sized frames?


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## Lauri

sqkcrk said:


> A friend of mine makes comb honey in medium depth supers w/ two divisions along the length of the super.


Wait a minute, Acebird said you didn't have any friends? 

Like this? Corn dog sticks shoved into the grove. They come in the perfect size, you don't even have to trim them.










I should have taken a photo of it full of honey. Just run your knife around the edge and you get a perfect square.

"What are we supposed to call normal sized frames?"
I'd call them 'custom-standards'


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## BeeCurious

sqkcrk said:


> What are we supposed to call normal sized frames?


"Frames " is the term that's frequently used in my area....


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## sqkcrk

Lauri said:


> Wait a minute, Acebird said you didn't have any friends?


Grrr, why that guy ... (insert funny Homer and Bart Simpson neck ringing icon here)

Gee Lauri, aren't u my friend?

Nice Lauri, but my friend make three individual frames for comb to be drawn in and sells frame/comb/honey all in a plastic clamshell deli tray. People like the wooden frame.


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## sqkcrk

So maybe anything not "normal" or standard size should be called by its dimension. Such as 6X5 inch mini frame or 4X4 mini frame.


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## Lauri

UPDATE 11-10-13
If you're interested...

Weather was warm enough here to add the last step to buttoning up for winter. Adding fortified sugar blocks.
I found the small colonies in great shape. They had not reduced size for winter at all..of course due to the fact all the bees were fall hatched and young.



















After giving them a puff to drive them down into the frames, I placed the sugar block directly above the colony right on top the frames. As they are in single deeps, the condensation on the sugar will give them a slow syrup source above the cluster. Capped honey in good supply on the outside edges and interior frames. The block will also give them a solid surface directly above the cluser to aid a little in retaining colonies heat.










I added the block, and flipped over the screened inner cover to accomodate the sugar.
Then add inner insulation..1 1/2 in frame:










Top with lid that is also insulated










Wrap all four sides, secure and pray










I'll let you know how they over winter in about 4 months


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## Lauri

I see today Michael Plamer has also posted a near identical thread to mine about overwintering mini frames.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...an-on-overwintering-200-queens-on-mini-frames

He is in Vermont and I am in Washington State. Both Northern states-so it will be a good test. Hopefully between the two of us, we will work out the bugs so many people can have confidence to try it themselves.


Velbert and others, jump in on this. I KNOW you are doing the same thing.


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## Saltybee

Lauri, Do you insulate the south side as well or am I misreading the photos? Would think that would block solar gain without an empty under or an exposed south side.


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## Lauri

Saltybee, I usually don't insulate the south side in bigger hives and nucs, but I did in this case since the clusters are small. More often we have cool cloudy weather and not many sunny winter days. I opted for more consistent interior temps over an occasional few hours once a month on a sunny day.


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## Saltybee

I had followed discusions a few years ago about all insulation nucs. Many found them to hold the cold as well as the heat. Thought about putting them over a empty body and inner cover to pick up the rising heat without cooling at night.


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## Daniel Y

So far our night are getting down into the 30's. we have had a hand full of mornings with frost. I was able to look up under my top bar hive the other morning and saw the bees clustered. later that day it was sunny and it warmed enough for them to fly.

I have 11 nucs, We added more sugar candy to them last weekend and all of them are able to break cluster during the day and access the food. they range from no stores two weeks ago to as much as 4 med frames of honey. Mine are 5 frame nucs but amount to the same volume of space. I did this last year with 2 nucs and they both did fine. So far so good.

Our weather patterns are much like Washington except we get bright sunny days most of the time. yesterday was overcast. We should not get really cold days until sometime in January early February.


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## Lauri

I notice with any hive that is fully insulated on all sides is not as active quite as _fast_ as those with more solar gain exposure. But on cold days, the bees in fully insulated hives are congregated at the entrances, both top and bottom. Bees in Hives without as much insulation are no where to be seen near the entrances. It is a very obvious difference.

As I said, I would rather have more consistent temps within the hive than temp extremes. The very active flight hives with solar gain exposure _ look nice_, but there is something to be said about low activity to survive the long winter months too. I only want them to get out for regular cleansing flights, not party when the sun comes out. Not be extremly active during the winter months when there is nothing to forage for. 

So a full insulatiing wrap that allows the bees to access stores, but keeps them from quickly warming in the sun, and thus exerting too much activity, may be benificial.
This is how it works in my climate. Would of course need to be modified for climates that are warmer or colder.

My hives that are insulated on all four sides with rigid foam are not _totally_ enclosed. It is as much of a wind break as much a light insulation. Enough gaps and cracks to still allow breathability.

Here is a hive I have wrapped completely with a commercial insulation. I did a few this way to see how they would fare. This is a complete wrap and I will need to keep an eye out for condensation issues. So far so good though. 




























This is generally all I do though..Two layers of 1 1/2 above the inner cover and in lid.


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## KevinR

Lauri, 

I tried to look through your threads and find these answers, but you have lots of posts. *grins*

What are your dimensions on your frames? Are they exactly half of a ML frame minus saw curf or do you cut them down to a specific length? Also on your dual boxes what size wood did you use for your center divider.

Have you built a jig/sled for doing the remilling of the end bars, or do you manually setup for each step? I'm looking at building a bunch of these this winter. Trying to decide the best way to do it. 

I.e. buying 4 end bars for each top/bottom bar from Mann Lake..

I'm "thinking" that I can setup a sled and dado blade to speed up the milling process. Just looking to see what your doing..

Thanks, 
-Kevin


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## Daniel Y

KevinR said:


> Lauri,
> 
> I tried to look through your threads and find these answers, but you have lots of posts. *grins*
> 
> What are your dimensions on your frames? Are they exactly half of a ML frame minus saw curf or do you cut them down to a specific length? Also on your dual boxes what size wood did you use for your center divider.
> 
> Have you built a jig/sled for doing the remilling of the end bars, or do you manually setup for each step? I'm looking at building a bunch of these this winter. Trying to decide the best way to do it.
> 
> I.e. buying 4 end bars for each top/bottom bar from Mann Lake..
> 
> I'm "thinking" that I can setup a sled and dado blade to speed up the milling process. Just looking to see what your doing..
> 
> Thanks,
> -Kevin


I am not Laurie, But I do make my own half frames. I also make the nucs so they are made to fit the frames not the other way around. I want to be able to fit he fraems end to end to fit in a full size hive. I am then able to put them in any hive and get the queen to fill them with brood. This is part of my idea on how to produce queens with little to no impact on the other colonies. remove a frame that was placed there specifically for the purpose then return a frame later when the new queen is mated and laying. the donor hive never misses anything except for a few weeks of one frame of brood. 
The half fraems are the length of a full size frame minus the saw kerf. They are cut on my radial arm saw with a stop block. The ends are then cut using a dado blade set to a slight tilt on the table saw. use a fence to set the depth of the taper and the miter gauge to hold the pieces. I can cut 4 to 5 of them at a time this way. The set up time is huge if all you are making is a few. I like to plan on making hundreds if I am goign to go through all the set ups. The remainder of the notches on the end bar are again done with a dado and simply jigs on the table saw. I also have jigs for my radial arm saw. the dog ears are cut on a jig and the radial arm saw.

I make my top bars from scratch. so I have jigs for every cut. including the width. length. groove if I make one. entire shape of the end including taper and notches. Making jigs pays for itself with just a hand full of bars made. Consistency is no effort. I make m jigs as mistake proof as possible this means you cannot even place them on the saw wrong. they will not fit. About the only mistake you can make is setting the depth of the cut. Take the time to make a strong quality jig and you will save yourself many hours of tedious labor over time.

Oh always make more than you think you need. it is a pain to come up one top bar short and have to go back through every step to get it. Right now we are in the process of making 600 of them. we will make 660 to insure we do not come up short. Making your own. not every bar is a winner. you get to cull out and take the losses for the duds. For me duds usually get drawn out and saved as 5 frame nuc frames that will get sold. Get cut in half to make mini nuc frames or are otherwise used for temporary purposes.

Here is a neat trick I found almost by accident. place a med frame in a deep box sandwiched between two deep frames. the bees will draw comb under the bottom bar. You can then cut away this comb and use it to bad into the half frames or as starter comb on new foundationless frames. The med frames comb is undamaged and can be placed back in a deep or added to a med box. In this way you can have every hive in your apiary contributing to the drawing of comb for a new hive or hives.


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## gmcharlie

Skip end bars and bottom bars. Make your top, and cut a piece of foundation fasten it securley and let them hang. Lot simpler and you can a few cells on 3 sides. They are no more prone to bur comb this way than they are with end bars


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## TWall

gmcharlie said:


> Skip end bars and bottom bars. Make your top, and cut a piece of foundation fasten it securley and let them hang. Lot simpler and you can a few cells on 3 sides. They are no more prone to bur comb this way than they are with end bars


Now why didn't I think of that??!! 

I'm wanting to make some half-sized frames for mating nucs. I was thinking of using just a top bar and a starter strip. But, I like the idea of cutting down foundation instead.

Thanks,

Tom


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## gmcharlie

TWall said:


> Now why didn't I think of that??!!
> 
> 
> Tom


Your Lazy cheap bone is not as well developed as mine!


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## westernbeekeeper

KevinR said:


> Lauri,
> 
> I tried to look through your threads and find these answers, but you have lots of posts. *grins*
> 
> What are your dimensions on your frames? Are they exactly half of a ML frame minus saw curf or do you cut them down to a specific length? Also on your dual boxes what size wood did you use for your center divider.
> 
> Have you built a jig/sled for doing the remilling of the end bars, or do you manually setup for each step? I'm looking at building a bunch of these this winter. Trying to decide the best way to do it.
> 
> I.e. buying 4 end bars for each top/bottom bar from Mann Lake..
> 
> I'm "thinking" that I can setup a sled and dado blade to speed up the milling process. Just looking to see what your doing..
> 
> Thanks,
> -Kevin


Hey Kevin,
I started a thread awhile back on how to mill your own frames. I think it would be extremely helpful in this process. Here is the link: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?277747-How-To-Make-Your-Own-Frames-Photo-Tutorial


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## KevinR

Thanks. 

I'm going to try to set up some sleds for repeatability, but those steps will help in finalizing the goals/design.


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## Darius

For each mating nuc I need 2-3 combs of sealed and emerging brood in May. How do you get half frames drawn if it your first time/spring using it half frame mating nucs? How did you start on those for the first time?


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## Michael Palmer

You can cut up brood comb on a table saw and fit the comb into the empty frames. Use support pins to hold in place. Then you can add the empty combs to a strong colony, in the center of the broodnest. 

Or you can add them to an extra box on a nuc, confining the queen to the box where the empty mating combs are by an excluder.


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## Daniel Y

Darius. the need for fraems to be drawn is the reason I switched from mini nucs to queen castles. I needed the mating nucs right now as I had queen cells setting in the incubator. We then modified out mini frames so they could be hooked together and placed in a full size hive. so we put every mini frame we had in full size hives and left them there the rest of the summer. all of them now have at least some comb drawn in them. Next spring they will be placed next to the brood nest during build up and the queens from our full size colonies will fill them with brood.

I have no idea how you would get those first fraems drawn if you do not have hives to make them. I could not get bees to stay in the mini nucs with undrawn fraems. Like Michael describes. cut comb from other frames and mount it in the mini frames.

Now I will have 7 or 8 minin nucs that as I add queens and bees I will also add a new undrawn frame. this way for every queen I rear I also make up an additional mini frame.

My idea is that the queen castle will be used to rear queens destined to be 5 frame nucs. the mini nucs will be used to rear queens that are either replacements, intended to be improved stock or to be sold. One way or the other they are destined to replace some other queen in an already established colony.


----------



## Darius

Mike, Lori you are up north, but I assume you tried wintering queens in a queen castle on 2-3 deeps. Do you find better survival rate on mini frames?


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## KevinR

Darius said:


> For each mating nuc I need 2-3 combs of sealed and emerging brood in May. How do you get half frames drawn if it your first time/spring using it half frame mating nucs? How did you start on those for the first time?


My plan is to overwinter the hives with a box on top that has mini combs. The main hive will move into it naturally... By late winter/early spring they should be laying in it. But you'd have to plan in advance. The other option would be to compress the hive like some people do for comb honey and only give them the option of drawing/living in the mini combs.


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## Lauri

UPDATE: On mini nucs as shown in the original post..
After 10 days very cold temps..a few days in the single digits-wind chill temps below 0, I went straight out to my smallest mini nuc and took a peak. Temps today reached about 45 degrees, just enough so I could crack the insulated inner cover and take a pic and glance. These were late mating nucs with a virgin introduced early August. Only on 4 -5 half sized deep frames with outside frames being totally empty, foundation only. I left them this way just to see if they would overwinter on a colony that small, in a not so perfect interior. I was glad to see they looked great. I was surprised to see how much of the sugar block they had consumed. Placed directly over the cluster, it gave them the feed they needed with out forcing them to break the cluster move.(Although these had nothing to move to) Placing frames of honey over the cluster would have given them too large an interior. When I get a day that is above 50, I will push the remaining sugar block together in the center over the cluster and will plan to replace it in a few weeks.



















These are my own line of Carnie hybrids from survivors since 2011. Washington State.


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## KevinR

Mail that queen to me!! =)) Actually mail me her daughter after she's puts up 300lbs of honey....

I cut pieces to make 200 mating frames yesterday... Now I just have to get motivated to cut all the end bars.. *grins*

Looking good...


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## HarryVanderpool

Well here are some pics of my overwintered mini's.
There are a whole lot better ways of doing it, but it works every year.
I'm going to be very grateful for each in almonds as always:

http://orsba.proboards.com/thread/3377/overwintering-queens?page=1#scrollTo=18189


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## Brandy

Those look great Harry. Looks like you also insulated and wrapped them. When you say you'll take them to almonds, what configuration will they be at that point?? Kind of jealous as we sit here in a snowdrift!!


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## HarryVanderpool

Brandy, I will take them to almonds as they are.
When I find that I need a queen, I will catch one from a mini nuc and then donate the mini-frames of bees to a hive using one of these:










These are placed on hives with only the full frames over a queen excluder.
as queens are utilized from the mini-nucs their frames of bees are added.
As soon as all brood is hatched out the bees are shook off of the mini frames and everything goes back together awaiting first graft in April.


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## jim lyon

Nice program Harry. Now I understand how you can end up with one more hive than me. 
Is 3 weeks between cagings sufficient to keep your populations up in those?


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## KevinR

Do you see a big benefit of using the box that holds full length frames with the 3/4 length frames at the same time? The boxes I'm making just hold all half frames, but sit on a normal box... i.e. 16 half frames vs 8 normal ones.


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## HarryVanderpool

jim lyon said:


> Is 3 weeks between cagings sufficient to keep your populations up in those?


Thanks, Jim.
We do make a special effort to time our batches around allowing the new queen to lay out a pattern so as to restock.
By the way, you most certainly have at least one hive more than me but until that is proven in a court of law by a Philadelphia lawyer, "Thats my story and I'm stick'in to it!"


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## HarryVanderpool

KevinR said:


> Do you see a big benefit of using the box that holds full length frames with the 3/4 length frames at the same time?


In a word, no.
Half frames make a lot of better sense for multiple reasons.
But it is another one of those things where I have built up all of this equipment and just do not want to have bunch of different sizes of stuff.
Here is a story that will blow your mind:
Do you know how I got started making my version of mini boxes?

A million years ago when I was just starting out and had maybe a couple of dozen hives, I went to an old beekeepers place to sell him a few buckets of honey.
After the sale was complete, he asked me if I had a spare couple of minutes. Then we jumped in his pickup and he took me to a property and we drove up to a shed.
He opened up an overhead door and the room was full, FLOOR TO CIELING with these mini nucs!!!!!!
He said, "Take all that you want."
I told him, "Oh, I will never need any of those!"
We argued and argued until finally HE MADE ME take 8 of them home.
Well, years later they became my pattern.
I'll bet there were 1500 of them in that shed.
Of course he has long since passed away.
DANG IT!!!!!!


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## marshmasterpat

Harry - What is the length of those mini frames?


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## KevinR

They look like they are a little short of a 3/4 length...

Ok, I thought maybe you had some super trip to needing the 3 full size frames... I've been cutting mine at half length..


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## Velbert

My half length 4 frame Mini Nuc 12-18-2013


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## Velbert

Double stacked MN half bee in the bottom and the other half in top box
NOTICE How they clustered on the warm south side of box


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## Velbert

Notice the white hive top feeder under the MN.


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## HarryVanderpool

Looking good, Velbert!


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## DPBsbees

I hope one of those is your Pol-line breeder, Velbert. I'm looking forward to those queens come May.


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## Velbert

Thanks Harry.

Pol-line breeder still going strong
The divides i made in the MN the last of August is doing real good.


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## HarryVanderpool

marshmasterpat said:


> Harry - What is the length of those mini frames?


They are 10" in length end to end.
Western (5 5/8") depth.


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## Lauri

12-21-13

People sometimes ask 'why Mini frames and not standard frames?' This small mating nuc colony is on five, half sized deeps, equivalent to 2 1/2 standard deep frames. 
Half sized frames have more_* interior*_ clustering space and compared to the large _*outside exposure *_of standard frames. Small frames are easier to handle and easier to find the queen. 

I just cut and milled up 500 of these, with another 1000 to go for what I expect to be my needs this year.. They take some time to make, but it's worth it to me. 500 is my limit for each batch. You have to keep them all straight and tidy so you can grab them for the next pass over the router. They get piled up too high if I try to do more than 500 at a time. It also doesn't seem like an endless chore if you do them in batches. Each frame takes 6 passes over the router blade and I use three different bits. 1", 1/4" and a shaper bit to ease the edges on the top bar. (Although, in this photo you can see the cut edge is square..I skipped the edge easing step this summer when I was in a hurry to make more frames) I store all the parts and cut foundation in rubbermaid type totes with a lid to keep off the barn dust and bird doo. 

Even in single digit temps, these small healthy colonies are doing great. The sugar block center lasted a month. I pushed the outside edges together over the colony and will add another block in about another 3 weeks or so. Each vitamin/electrolyte/acidified fortfied block was about 2 1/2#. The colonies that had more time to build up are not going through their blocks quite so fast as these that have empty frames on the outside.
Blocks are sprinkled with dry BeePro for a free choice protein source if they want it. Proteinis NOT mixed into the brick.



















100 half deep frame parts:


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## WWW

Lauri, 
Do you make the extra end bars needed after cutting the frames in half? I have never see end bars sold separate from the frames. Nice looking mating nuc.


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## KevinR

Mann lake sales the end bars seperate but you have to call them. I ordered 100 frames two days ago and an extra 200 end bars. For mediums, they are 12 cents per. It roughly worked out to 101 dollars for 200 medium mating nuc frames.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Kelley and Brushy Mountain both also sell frame components separately. For instance, here are some end bars:
http://www.kelleybees.com/Shop/39/Hives-Components/Frame-Hive-Repair/4630/New-Style-End-Bars

- and -

http://www.brushymountainbeefarm.com/10-ea-5-3_8-End-Bars/productinfo/117/


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## WWW

Thanks to both of you, all the mating nucs shown here are nice, I may have to look into building some.


----------



## Velbert

I go to Dadants in Paris TX. And get my frames and extra end bars $11 or $12 per bundle of 100


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## Lauri

I order the standard deep frames, unassembled from Mann Lake, and order extra end bars. Cut the top bar to 9 1/4", bottom bar to 8". 
With a 3/4" divider in a 10 or 8 frame deep, 9 1/4" top bar fits perfectly. 










There are lots of ways to make mini frames that are easier and cheaper..But in the long run, having the sturdy end bars and bottom bar are nice.


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## KevinR

I'm in the process of building 50 mating nucs, so I can get cool like Lauri and Micheal Palmer. My forum post next year will be... How I killed 50 mating nucs on mini frames. (grins)


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## Lauri

I am cutting my rite cell, 10 at a time on my miter saw. 2/3 installed in my standard frames and the other 1/3 for the half sized deeps frames. I glue in a small wood skewer in the top bar grove to keep foundation centered and give the bees a guide to start the foundationless part of the comb.



















This is how it looks when they work the frames



















I'll likley get more drones with frames made this way. But since I raise queens, that is an added bonus in addition to stretching the foundation costs. There are a lot of feed stores around the brood area too. Might be a better frame combo for overwintering.
A person can have the option of cutting out drone comb or cutting out honey comb from this type of frame.


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## KevinR

I feel your pain on making too many frames in one sitting... I cut 200 mini frames last night.... I'm going to have to figure out a better way... Too many slides across the table saw/table router for my tastes... 

But on the plus side, there are now 200 mating nuc frames piled up in my garage floor.. (LOL) 

Need more! *grins*


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## Velbert

Just think about all the money your saving cuting out your own


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## Lauri

Kevin, I make 6 passes over the router blades for each frame, But it goes pretty fast if you are organized. Some of the cuts can be several parts at a time in one swipe. I store the cut and milled parts in big rubbermaid type containers until I assemble them. Just getting them cut and ready for assembly is 80% of the time consuming work. I assemble enough to fill my mating nucs and have and extra 500 ready and waiting. If I need them in summer, I can assemble some in a flash. _As long as the parts are already milled._

Here are 500 half sized deep frames..top bars and bottom bars.



















Left side, my cut and milled end, right side, factory end










You could do this too. If prices continue to rise I may make my mini frames like this with my own top bars. I'll make a few of these and try them out this year. See if they work like I want. No shoulder for frame spacing, but that's not a big deal. I'm sure I'll come up with something to modify that.










I drilled a hole, glue and tap in a wood skewer. It was the perfect size-no trimming. Corn Dog food grade stick. About $2.75 for 100 pack. Although it is surprisingly rigid, there is No real strength, just a guide for them to end comb and hopefully not attach it to the side of the nuc.


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## KevinR

I'd have to think about my steps, but I know I have room for improvement from a speed/repeatability standpoint.

I made a sled from my tablesaw. I can place 5+ top bars and 10+ bottom bars to be cut to the 9.25/8"...

So to make 200 frames from the 100 frames I ordered... That was 20 slides for the tops and 10 slides for the bottoms. That's not to bad.

The top bar took the most time on the router table.. I biggest router bit that I had was 3/4". So I had to do 4 passes for each top bar to get the part that rests on the shelf. Cutting all the bars to 3/4" then adjusting the fence and cutting them all to the 1" mark.. I might have been faster to just set up a guard and shove the frames into the router for the 1" depth cut... 

Then I did 3 cuts for the end bars to attach to the top, 2 for the sides and one for the bottom. The bottom cut was just to clean them up and make them pretty. I could do multiple parts in a pass, but I think I might look at making a sled for the router table also. I'm not 100% happy with the repeatability of holding the bars to my miter slide.

The bottom bars were easy. I'd grab 5+ at a time... cut, spin, cut, flip, cut, spin, cut.. and done.. 

I'm just thinking down the road if I need to make a few thousand frames... LOL. Or if I make them from scratch vs re-purposing mann lakes... On the plus side, I now have enough frames for 50 new mating mini-nucs... 

But, I'd like to be running 400 plus. 

Someday..


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## Velbert

Wood cut for 350 mini nucs bought 700 commercial 6 1/4" frames reworked to 9.25 long top bars made 1400 frames 
With 8 passes per frame = 11,200 passes





My mini nuc's


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## Lauri

Velbert! You're a busy guy! Nice job Mr. 
Queen rearing in high gear...I guess I'd better get busy too


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## KevinR

Yea, I need to get back in the shop, but it's currently 1 degrees F outside... LOL 

Think I'll stay in on the couch until this nonsense passes.. *grins*


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## Velbert

Thanks Lauri,it likes you have been very busy too! doing a great job on keeping very nice strong colony's
I am all ready for spring to get here.


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## Lauri

A little update on this thread. The mating nucs are overwintering wonderfully. I really liked them in the single deeps with a sugar block directly above the colonies on the top bars.
Here are some slight changes I am making for next years batch.

The hive bodies were perfect. Although as careful as I am, I am still getting some shrinkage on the divider, so instead of straight edge flush, the new models are left about a strong 1/16" high to allow for shrinkage.

Here are the photos of how they are constructed:
Bottom of the 10 frame deep. 










Plywood bottom stapled on , staple the center divider well.










Pine center divider left high to allow for shrinkage:










You can see these double each have a separate screened inner cover, flipped to accommodate sugar block. These worked great, but on a single deep with out separate upper box's, the skinny divider didn't have the best positive closure with two inner covers. I am making one inner cover for a better center barrier for the singles.










New single inner cover










The center 3/4" x 1 is NOT stapled in. Nether is the 3/4x3" on the opposite side. These are cut very tight, but can float to assure a snug closure no matter what the center divider in the box does. If it is high, the inner cover divider moves with it. If it is low, I can push the inner cover down to fit snug.










Ready for another sugar block.










When they are done with the blocks I'll flip over the inner cover to reduce space on top the frames. Give them back their upper entrance, which when flipped was used just for winter ventilation.










My weather was pretty normal with a few bouts of 0 temps with wind chill. Average winter temps around here are 30-40. Although insulated on all four sides and the lid, they have significant air gaps. The rigid insulation was more of a wind break than warmth retention.

Velbert, How are you nucs faring?


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## Daniel Y

Laurie, the reality of wood and your climate is you are going to have that shrinkage and then expansion. A coupel of solutions.

1. select wood with grain that will allow the least shrinkage. PM me for details or search how wood expands and contracts.

2. select varieties of wood with lower expansion ratios.

3. this is the easiest. use plywood for your dividers.

As for my nucs, all are doing well. some ready to be moved to full size equipment. two are struggling. one of those is looking like they will attempt a come back. I will give the other some assistance in the next few days. I may have to wait until this weekend to have enough warm part of the day to work in. Temps are still hitting high 50's low 60's for us.


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## Velbert

Got to get into all of them (60/70 degrees) and all are brooding fed about 80% of them and they were bring in very small loads of a brownish yellows pollen.



My vsh Pol-line Breeder Queen from Vpqueens they wintered in 3 mediums she's is brooding in the bottom 2 boxes
The top box with stores


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## Daniel Y

KevinR said:


> I feel your pain on making too many frames in one sitting... I cut 200 mini frames last night.... I'm going to have to figure out a better way... Too many slides across the table saw/table router for my tastes...
> 
> But on the plus side, there are now 200 mating nuc frames piled up in my garage floor.. (LOL)
> 
> Need more! *grins*




I have yet to figure out a good way to make fraems. a lot of cuts are a lot of cuts no mater what order you do them in. This year we are making about 850 of them. That justified some fairly drastic improvements in our methods.

1. I cut a 2X4 or 2X6 to length. 

2. I then plane it to the correct thickness for the width of an end bar. 

3. using a jig that holds the block on end over a dado blade. I then cut the notches both top and bottom in the exact center of this block. 

4. I then set the blade of my jointer (purchased it to make these frames) to that it takes out a 1/8th inch bite I then set a stop block and run the 2X4 over it to make the passage in the lower portion of the end bar.

What I end up with is a single block that is entirely formed into the shape of an end bar. It is just 3.5 or 5.5 inches thick. I then slice off 3/8 inch thick and bars on my radial arm saw from these blocks. If I got in the shop jigs already made and just made bars I believe I could l have made all 1700 end bars in a single day.

I get 7 end bars per 2X4. So that is a little more than 100 blocks to make up and they go very quickly. It cost me all of $100 to get that jointer. I found it on Craigs list. Best thing that has happened to my frame making. I now am looking for a thickness planer so I can get better consistency in the thickness of the blocks.


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## sqkcrk

I know a guy who has home made frames w/out any real joints. All the parts butt up against each other and are nailed together. I believe that the frames are wired. These are medium depth frames in his honey supers.


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## Velbert

Lauri i thiink if i can work it in i want to cut me out
about 150 deep 4 frame mating nucs just for wintering them in there will be more honey in the deeper frames when they cluster for winter i do think they will winter better and just winter in 1 single Deep


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## Daniel Y

This is my second year wintering nucs in a 5 frame nuc. about half of those also had a 5 frame medium of honey over them. None of them ever have enough honey to make it to spring. Randy Oliver wrote an article last year that may explain why. basically that is because a small colony really never gives up trying to build up and goes through more stores as a result. I always keep sugar on all nucs. even with that I have one nuc with very little population. no brood no stores. just 5 frames of completely empty comb. I am giving the sugar water as often as I can at this point. This is in complete contradiction to my ideology that you do not expend the additional energy and resources on the weak. I justify the decision by saying this nuc was weak going into winter. Keeping it at all was a choice to spend the time and resources. Plus I can afford to so why not.


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## Velbert

don't know the full story but if you will feed heavy in the fall and let them store a lot for wintering.
and you need to feed where they can get it fast like a hive top feeder or a division board feed or sever jars on top bars with a empty hull around them so they will have more than they can use for brooding if you feed 1 jar at a time it just act as mild flow and they will just brood more.

And if you feed several times during winter they will keep raising brood.


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## D Semple

Daniel Y said:


> 4. I then set the blade of my jointer (purchased it to make these frames) to that it takes out a 1/8th inch bite I then set a stop block and run the 2X4 over it to make the passage in the lower portion of the end bar.


Just a couple observations from another frame maker.

I make them like you but for the end pieces I use 2x12 or 2x10 to reduce handling and you can turn them sideways to run them across the jointer cross-grain. You get a little tear out on the end of the block but not bad enough to ruin a piece. Also have to watch that your jointer doesn't get clogged. I then double and reverse 2 of these blocks and then use a bandsaw like a meat slicer, cutting 2 end pieces on each pass:










As far as top bars which are the most time consuming about the only really good time saving measure I've found beyond what you all are already doing is setting up a fence and dadoing 5 at a time on the table saw for each pass, which is all I can grip with the sliding miter. If you have radial arm saw with a dado stack, a good fence and dust collection setup you can do 10 - 20 bars at a time for each step. 


Don


----------



## Velbert

Over wintered Mating Nuc 2/21/2014





I am going to collect some pollen


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## Velbert

I think i got the bee fever don't know it they will make it to 1st of April before wanting to swarm


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## KevinR

Lots of bees in a little box... They look good... I agree, don't think they'll make it to April, unless you give them some boxes to work on.. = )


----------



## Daniel Y

I would be moving that to a 10 frame box with a medium over it. That or taking form it to add to struggling hives somewhere else. As of now I have two hives that are weak on population. I will be inspecting my 10 nucs this afternoon. if any are even close to this strong they will be used for what I have them for. boosting and supporting production colonies. I suspect I have at least a few of these.


----------



## franktrujillo

the problem I have with the shamrock quad mating nuc is all the bees go to one side too and also if I have more then one queen in it. they get balled by the workers. next year I'm going to modify it.


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## Lauri

I'm overwintering about 80 of these nucs this year. When MP mentioned last year he had 200 overwintering, I got mating nuc envy! Ha! I tried to build more, but 80 was the most I could increase in one year.
Heres the new and improved design with one gallon interior feeder










That little block pulls right out so you can clean the feeder if necessary. A couple dabs of Clear silicone fills in the gaps and forms a fitted gasket.










I staple the bottom right onto the hive body-so I fir it out 










I drill a few drain holes in the bottom after it's painted.










Let the box's set a while, then check for shrinkage before use. If gaps have opened up, I fill with silicone.










Come spring, I remove one queen to place in a new nuc or needy overwintered hive that's lost it's queen during winter, then just set 5 frames of bees & feed from a donor hive on top the remaining queen and colony on the mini frames. With a short intro period with a screened inner cover between them, I let them combine with the overwintered queen. Works like a charm.(I give them NO queenless period-don't give them a chance to start any queen cells)
Heres what they look like after 30 days from combining:










Sometimes those really tiny overwintered colonies are not big enough to support the queen & brood rearing early spring. The method above really gives them what they need to take off. I treat these tiny overwintered colonies (4 half sized deep frames) as just queen castles, but they've overwintered very well for me and all those late summer mated queens are beyond handy in February/March.


----------



## Lauri

In resonse to questions:
I don't have any trouble with bees crossing over when I remove the single/divided screened inner cover. I ether blow on them or give them a puff if they are highly populated to drive them down a bit. I pry up the inner cover, give it a small whack to dislodge the bees- over their own area of course, then if I need to I just turn it on it's side to straddle the divider. The only time I do this is when I am introducing virgin queens. They can quickly run over the divider so you have to be careful in that case.



















But I have constructed individual inner covers. They work well and are a good way to use up scrap shorts.










Additional box's using standard equipment-cut down & assembled.










I try to overwinter the mating nucs above as a single/divided deep with a fortified sugar block above the colonies. But I do have box's ready for supering at times. These standard deeps, cut down to 9 7/8" x 16 1/4" and assembled are also great for 10 -half sized deep frame mating nucs without the divided feature.










Someone drew this up for me. The measurements are not quite right, but it still may be helpful. I used 3/8" plywood for the divider to allow the most room for frames. You'd have to modify sightly to allow for the dimentions of you own gear.


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## Lauri

Heres a pic of the parts. If you need more photos PM me and I'll send them to you step by step construction.


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## marshmasterpat

:thumbsup:

Thanks


----------



## NH Beekeeper

Here is a jig system I made up for making frames 10x faster. Made up 200 1/2 med frames for mini nucs 12-15 years ago and wished I thought of this jig sooner.


----------



## NH Beekeeper

Some more pic of jig. Will explain after more pics.


----------



## NH Beekeeper

This jig I made up to do 1/2 Deep Frames.

Pic 1 is of the side arm supports that hold 24 end bars on each side of square jig/hollow box.

Pic 2 is of another flat board where you lay 24 ends of top bar all level and run glue line across them. This is later done with bottom bars also. A little excess glue runs down edges is good as you take a model paint brush and swip the edges before putting into end bars.

Pic 3 shows the top bars laying across square jig and cannot go lower then level with end bars.

Pic 4 is of holding screws in end of jigs square box. These are unscrewed and jig is flipped 180* and now you glue bottom bars and put in.

As one can imagine with frames in jig you can air staple the top and bottom bars onto the end bars as fast as you dare to go and get them in straight.

Pic 5 is of bottom bars being assembled.

Pic 6 you toe nail in end bars to the top bars on both side of jig.

Pic 7 I unscrew single side arm support and slide 10 frames at a time off real quickly.

Less then 20 min to do 24 frames including inserting cut plastic foundation.

I cut top bars on chop saw 50 at a time in 1/2.
Then I got table saw set up with 1" day to and at depth cut out square end of top bar for frame rest depth 10+ at a swipe.
On another table saw I turn 15 top bars on edge and cut in notch for end bar and flip over and do other side.
I do the bottom bars the same and whack out 20 to a swipe across the side putting in slight notch to fit bottom of end bar.
Set table say up and cut plastic foundation 10 sheets cut to width at a swipe.

Whip out 1000 in a few days by yourself.


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## NH Beekeeper

My deeps I have a center bar that is removable. I put these on other hives to draw out and can reuse deep with full length frames later if need be?


----------



## Knisely

This is a great thread. Thank you, NH Beekeeper for adding to it and getting it up where I saw it. As I look at your images, I don't 'get' how pic 4 corresponds with what you say about the holding screws and flipping the jig's square box. Screws are where?? Are their heads the three black circles? If I were to summarize what I learned from the pictures and descriptions, you used some 3/4" by whatever length you had, ripped to the right widths to make the square jig's central component and then mounted some rails on it at the right height to fit your end bars snugly. Can you show a few more pictures to illustrate the bottom of the jig and how you do the 180* flip? It looks like you took some care in how you fabricated that and I'd like to understand that a bit better.


----------



## NH Beekeeper

Yes everything is cobbled together with older boards that were scrap. Some we sawed/ran on planer for exact thickness. Took me about 10 minutes of thinking to come up with this idea last winter while building other bee stuff in friends garage. Finally just got to posting pic of build. Just whipped out a set of frames last night so I got new pics on iPhone to post.

Here are a few more pics of jig. Probably what I should have mentioned is that the square jig/not really square but exact dimensions to 1/2 deep frame. Is supported by another board underneath. Hopefully pics will somewhat explain.

Pic 1 is of square jig slid back like 4" which the square frame jig I have a tounge sticking out to support that end up at correct height as well as block at far end of "bottom plank" that supports square jig in air.

Pic 2 shows square jig turned 90* on bottom support board. You can see 3 screw holes in square cribbing on bottom support board.

Pic 3 shows what the bottom board is like and how I made it up to get the length and correct height for the end bars so that top bar and bottom bar can be nailed together and kept square.


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## Knisely

Thank you for those additional pictures. The "square" jig is held up off the bottom support board by the small rack at the end with the screws and by a little slat at the other end at the height that will permit you to have the top or bottom bars under the "square" jig for when you've flipped it 180* and are gluing and nailing the bottom or top bars. 
How is the side rail attached at the far end of the jig? Just want to make sure the frames will come off once they're glued & nailed.


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## NH Beekeeper

Front side of square jig where the 3 screws are on tounge of jig is where the end bar rails are double screwed/permenant held in place and far end of rail is just a single screw. When you first put in the end bars do the far end one first and screw in rail just so it is snug and not fall out/now all that are in line are snug.

Then rails are about 2/3 to 3/4 up the height of the end bars on each side. This holds things snug so after you are done with the top bars and flip 180* on its back the 1/2 assembled frames stay in place.

Little tack hammer seats top bars into end bars to make them flush with jig. Pic 3 in first set shows about 5 that need to be seated into end bars.


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## NH Beekeeper

Knisely said:


> Thank you for those additional pictures. The "square" jig is held up off the bottom support board by the small rack at the end with the screws and by a little slat at the other end at the height that will permit you to have the top or bottom bars under the "square" jig for when you've flipped it 180* and are gluing and nailing the bottom or top bars.
> How is the side rail attached at the far end of the jig? Just want to make sure the frames will come off once they're glued & nailed.


Pic #7 shows the single screw that is turned out to allow frames to slide out of jig when all assembled. Pull them off and then insert plastic foundation.


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## larrypeterson

Wonderful thread! if I may, add just a tiny tid bit. I use the little sheet metal clip to install 2 or 4 half frames into the full frame box. It requires a full frame on each side to support the center clip but works very well in both 5 frame nucs and full size hives. I have also used medium half frames in full length boxes and the bees just build the comb on down to full length. When I go back to medium, I just cut the bottom comb off and they are once more medium length. The clips are easy to make with a pair of pliers and a bit of thin sheet metal.

I hope this thread does not die. It has been very helpful for me except for the "mind expanding pain" associated with learning something new and valuable. Thanx LP


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## sauve

mes miniplus que j ai fabriqué


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## dennis crutchfield

where are you getting your smaller frames? or are you making them. never mind I just read all the post


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## sauve

dennis crutchfield said:


> where are you getting your smaller frames? or are you making them. never mind I just read all the post


OUii je les fait mes petits cadres je vous mettrais une photo des que je peux


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## emrude

sauve said:


> OUii je les fait mes petits cadres je vous mettrais une photo des que je peux


Je voudrais voir une photo de vos mini-cadres.
Merci
Marie


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## sauve

emrude said:


> Je voudrais voir une photo de vos mini-cadres.
> Merci
> Marie


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## emrude

Avez-vous épinglez les deux cadres ensemble, ou ils verrouiller-vous à l'autre? Je suis un an à partir d'hivernage mini-nucléus. Faire et obtenir petits cadres étirés serait un grand départ pour l'automne prochain.
Merci beaucoup,
Marie


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## sauve

emrude said:


> Avez-vous épinglez les deux cadres ensemble, ou ils verrouiller-vous à l'autre? Je suis un an à partir d'hivernage mini-nucléus. Faire et obtenir petits cadres étirés serait un grand départ pour l'automne prochain.
> Merci beaucoup,
> Marie


je les epingles quand je demare les miniplus pour les faire batir dans une ruche normale je met une hausse 2/3 65/8 et quand la reine a pondu je met avec les bee dans les miniplus


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## sauve

voila comment je vais hiverner mes miniplus ici au Quebec


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## emrude

Cela ressemble beaucoup. J'espère que vos MINIPLUS font bien cet hiver.
Marie


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## sauve

emrude said:


> Cela ressemble beaucoup. J'espère que vos MINIPLUS font bien cet hiver.
> Marie


Je vous donnerais des nouvelles au printemps prochain


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## clyderoad

does beesource have a translator function that can be turned on so the conversation can be read in English?


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## squarepeg

good point clyde. i thought forum protocol was that english be used, but when i checked that rule only applies to the signature line?

quoting steve martin, a wild and crazy guy: "it's like those french have a different word for everything"


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## delber

Well you all read my mind. I wish I could translate French. I think that's what they're speaking.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Its _not _your just imagination, _squarepeg_. 

_Barry _posted this in an earlier thread in the _Welcome _forum ...



Barry said:


> No, just Slovenian is not allowed.
> In this forum I'm not too strict, but in all the other forums, English is required.





[hr] [/hr]

For those who may not be aware, clicking the blue double arrow in any quote box links to the original thread where the quote was posted, and there the full context of the quote can be seen.


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## emrude

I am sorry. I did not read the fine print. I will use only english from now on. 
I am planning to start queen rearing in a very small way. I am trying to learn about what kind and sizes of equipment I will be needing. I like the design of sauve's mini frames. They would be harder to make but when they lock together they could be put in hive body without clips. 
I do not live as far north as the many of you who are keeping bees in mini-nucs--I am further north than Oklahoma. I have not talked to any local beekeepers who have been able to keep the bees in these smaller hive spaces. Some have trouble with Queen Castles.
I am in awe of what is being done. I should be able to do this in my area. I plan on making frames this winter so I can get comb built up next summer.
Thanks to everyone who have shared their knowledge. 
Mary
Still learning about bees, and forum rules.


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## sauve

emrude said:


> I am sorry. I did not read the fine print. I will use only english from now on.
> I am planning to start queen rearing in a very small way. I am trying to learn about what kind and sizes of equipment I will be needing. I like the design of sauve's mini frames. They would be harder to make but when they lock together they could be put in hive body without clips.
> I do not live as far north as the many of you who are keeping bees in mini-nucs--I am further north than Oklahoma. I have not talked to any local beekeepers who have been able to keep the bees in these smaller hive spaces. Some have trouble with Queen Castles.
> I am in awe of what is being done. I should be able to do this in my area. I plan on making frames this winter so I can get comb built up next summer.
> Thanks to everyone who have shared their knowledge.
> Mary
> Still learning about bees, and forum rules.


bonjour avec un modele pas difficile a faire les cadres


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## Lauri

Hello Mary, this thread is a couple years old. I have overwintered the mating nucs a few different ways since I started this thread and will post some updates this winter when I have more time. 

Not only for overwintering the queens, but having the mini frames in good shape the next season is particularly important so you can get the earliest start with queen rearing the next year.
Good shape means filled with both brood and honey, not too many with empty drawn comb. For instance, if you super them with standard frames in fall so you can use interior frame feeders. That is great until you get into them in spring and find they have moved up to the standard frames and abandoned the mini frames below. This will give you a good nuc in spring on standard frames, but will do nothing for you in the queen rearing dept. the next season.
Placing those empty drawn mini frames in spring on large hives to get refilled works well, but you sacrifice a month to get it done. Keeping them on the mini frames all winter is what I'll be writing about.

I'll also tell you what I do with all those overwintered queens, how they perform and what the market is locally for them.









And then the importance of trying to overwinter the right kind of bees. I have had great luck overwintering Carniolan crosses in the mini nucs, but Pol-Line strain was not good, many in mini nucs starved out overwinter. The comparison of the two was striking in the difference.

Pol-Lines-March photo









Carniolan crosses-March photo








This is how I want them early-mid April:


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## MT204

clyderoad said:


> does beesource have a translator function that can be turned on so the conversation can be read in English?


Use Chrome for your browser, right click on page and click "translate to English".


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## grozzie2

Lauri said:


> Hello Mary, this thread is a couple years old. I have overwintered the mating nucs a few different ways since I started this thread and will post some updates this winter when I have more time.


I'll be interested in reading what you have to say on that subject. I have my first experiment in this are running for this winter, it's a standard deep box divided with half size frames, 10 on each side. I have one colony on each side right now. I have a follower (splitter) for each side so in the spring when I start cells, I can move the splitter board and turn it into a 4 way with 5 half size frames in each quadrant.


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## emrude

Lauri,
I am looking forward to your winter postings. I have one cordovan queen from Pendell Apiaries. I bought two, but I lost the other queen to my clumsiness. I am doing everything I can think of to get her though the winter. I also have daughter of R Weaver's buckfast queen. She overwintered well. I am planning to get another buckfast queen next year and requeen hive. I would like to get back to 1st generation buckfast bees.
I am only a hobby beekeeper so I learn so much from beekeeper's who share what has worked for them. 
I can build all of my wooden ware so I'd like to get suggestions as to what the best overwintering/queen-raising equipment that have worked for other beekeepers. 
Thank you for taking time sharing your knowledge and experience in what must be a very busy life.

Mary


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## WesternWilson

Lauri, looking forward to the winter update. I was part of a round table discussion recently on the requirements of the beekeeping industry and the prerequisites for beginning to build a domestic bee and queen rearing industry in Canada. 

I would be very interested in hearing from you on what steps would be necessary to encourage beekeepers to set up local rearing operations, with a view to growing the domestic supply. You do something very much along the lines of what I imagine is the future for us, so hearing what you see in terms of industry needs and how to get there would be great.


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## Lauri

WesternWilson said:


> Lauri, looking forward to the winter update. I was part of a round table discussion recently on the requirements of the beekeeping industry and the prerequisites for beginning to build a domestic bee and queen rearing industry in Canada.
> 
> I would be very interested in hearing from you on what steps would be necessary to encourage beekeepers to set up local rearing operations, with a view to growing the domestic supply. You do something very much along the lines of what I imagine is the future for us, so hearing what you see in terms of industry needs and how to get there would be great.


I got your email Janet, Sorry about the delay in my response. I'll reply to your questions asap. Still doing fall chores. A 3 hour trip each way today over White pass to get alfalfa today. Beautiful trip this time of year.


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## WesternWilson

That does look like a beautiful trip, however long! Looking forward to your reply Lauri, especially reflections on both short term measures and long term goals for establishing a stable queen and bee breeding capacity.


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## sauve

bonjour , je vous donnes des nuvelles de mes mini plus,pour le moment tout va bien


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## sauve

Bonjour a tous,
mes mini+on passé l hiver et j attends l arrivées des mâles pour diviser mes boites et faire des nouveaux mini+ j ai fabriqué des Quatro nuc que je vais peupler bientot et je vous mettrais des photos 
À bientôt


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## sauve

Bonjour a toutes et a tous, il y a longtemps que je ne suis passé sur le forum ,cause beaucoup de travail pour elevage des reines en mini plus et quatroplus
voila un lien de mon rucher d elevage de reines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvPPshraiXs


a bientot


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