# First grafting attempt disaster?



## louborges (May 16, 2009)

Today I attempted to graft for the first time. I made my queen cups and mounted them on a bar and frame. Yesterday I separated a supper that had no larvae and some capped brood. This super has been isolated with a queen excluder. I set up a work bench inside my green house where it was warm and humid. I had a nice mag lamp mounted on the bench. Today was a bit cool but over 60 degrees. I did find a frame with very young larvae. I had a moist towel to carry the frame with the larvae to the green house to graft. I have a Chinese grafting tool and was ready to go. First problem was that I was nervous and didn’t have a steady hand, so the walls of the cells collapsed but I think I got the larvae at first. Maybe damaged? Don’t know. I had difficulty putting the larvae on the cup bottom. Some I scrapped on the side walls. I did a rush job because I was nervous and thought I needed to rush so the larvae won’t dry out. I was hot and sweating while collecting the larvae. How much time do I have handling the frames out of the hive? I was afraid they would dry out. When should I check to see if any will take? If only a few take could I try again after I take the few cells to start nucs?


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

The good thing about grafting is you can keep trying. You will be able to check the next day to see if they were excepted. If you did not get any to take just do it again. I think you will be surprised I'm sure some will take. I just started grafting this year. One thing I found is I take a small screw driver and break the cell wall down some so I can get to the larva easier. Try that next time it makes it easier to get the tool under the larva. Sure if you only get a few to take move the cell bar to a queen rite finisher and graft again. I would not try to move each cell since they are very fragile at that stage. Just move the whole cell bar and regraft with a new cell bar. Make up your mating nucs just a couple days before the queens are due to hatch.


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## knoxjk (Sep 10, 2010)

Im also tried my first grafting today. I had some frames that i used black plastic foundation and had some white plastic..everything is trial and error so don't get discouraged...the black was by far the easiest to see the larve the white was almost impossible to see the larve..I think it just takes practice and try to find the smallest larve good luck..post your progress..GOOD LUCK!!!


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## timgoodin (Mar 10, 2007)

This will be my third year at grafting, you get better the more you do it. I too felt like you the first time I tried but had 5-6 cells take out of probably 20. I got up to 15 or so out of 20 last year and this was actually more than I had nucs for. It's quite amazing what you remember each time. I use the chinease grafting tool and after a while you sort of get a feel for using it and scooping up the royal jelly along with the larvae. If you mess up just stick the frame back in the hive and pull another out. Practice makes you much better. Good luck!

Tim


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Appreciate the post. I'm going to go give it a try. I have everything ready except the "nerve". I feel better about my lack of confidence.


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## quevernick (Feb 22, 2011)

Lifting up the larvae from the back on the "C" helps, especially if you can get the larvae half on the tool and half off of it. Makes it easier to get it off the tool and into the cup. A little bit of liquid in the cell helps. I have a small paintbrush that I dip into nectar or royal jelly from an already grafted cell and just dab the inside of the queen cup. I've heard/seen people use sugar water or water also. I would take your time, you may not get the best take the first couple of time but eventually you'll get fast enough so you will. My first try at grafting I didnt get any to take, my second time I got 7 queen cells, hopefully my next I'll get more


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## louborges (May 16, 2009)

I took a quick look and if I understood what they were doing it looks like I may have 5 or 6 cells (out of 13) are being worked on. I might just be overly optimistic. Maybe in a week it will be obvious. But they are working on most of the cells.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

If you got 5 or 6 you did better than I did last time. I totally botched my first attempt, & still suck at it.
I'll be trying again, after swarm season slows down.


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## knoxjk (Sep 10, 2010)

What is the best method or what do you do to ensure you get the right age larvae?


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## guyross (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm just beginning to graph and want to know if anyone primes there cups with a yogurt and water mix? The proper size larva are the tiniest C shaped ones.


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## quevernick (Feb 22, 2011)

Since the queen tends to lay in patterns, I generally look for cells with eggs in them first. Usually right around those cells you will see cells with a tiny bit of royal jelly. Those larvae are the best candidates since they've just hatched.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

I've used the yogurt method many times. Use plain yogurt; getting hard to find because everyone wants the lowfat, fruit contaminated junk now. I don't mix any water with it, just bring it to room temp. You'll get a little better take using Royal Jelly but the yogurt definitely works well. Only problem is, depending which yogurt you use like Yoplait or Greek yogurt, you may have French or Greek speaking queens and it's very difficult to communicate with them.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

fish_stix said:


> Only problem is, depending which yogurt you use like Yoplait or Greek yogurt, you may have French or Greek speaking queens and it's very difficult to communicate with them.


Qui? Vous ne'parlez pas le Francais? :lpf:


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## louborges (May 16, 2009)

I check again yesterday to see how many graft took, and at first thought 5 or 6 based on observing new wax build up on the cups I made. but I'm not sure. If I have the timing right they should cap the cells in a few days. I didn't look inside the cells to see if larvae was growing which now I feel I should have. So if I see new wax build up on the cups does that mean they are building queens or just wax comb?


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

Here's a link to an excellent thread on the queen-rearing subject...I'm linking you to a post in that thread that has pics of queen cell "takes" and "misses": Moving from OK Queens to Great Queens
It's a pretty long thread, but the information is invaluable. (until about post #161, that is...after that it died out)


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

Thanks for the old thread robherc. Lots of good info. I'm starting to have trouble keeping up with what stage each of my nucs are in. There were some good ideas on how to mark the progress of each one. I'll prob try a couple different ways to see which I like.


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

robherc said:


> Qui? Vous ne'parlez pas le Francais? :lpf:


_"Qui"_? Ne signifie pas que vous _"pourquoi"_?


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

because it's been about 12years since I took Francais...lol


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

Et pour moi, trente-huit ans.

Profitez de vos abeilles!


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

LOL, oops....should've been "Que? Vous ne' parle pas la Francais? ...gotta love how much difference one letter can make...


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

It's all Greek to me!


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## knoxjk (Sep 10, 2010)

Well my first graft attempt and got 15 cells out of 23...is it true a person can only have beginners luck once? I didn't think that so bad for my first time...


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

That's very good for a first timer! But you're not done yet. Make sure you get those cells out of the cell builder on day 14-15 or you will be an unhappy first timer with one open emerged cell and 14 cells with a big hole in the side.


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## louborges (May 16, 2009)

I thought I was getting some queen cells but after taking a close look I didn't see any developing larvae. I'm new at this but it did look like they were building cells. See in the photo they were building something. Fooled me.


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## quevernick (Feb 22, 2011)

Thats the same thing that happened to me on my first attempt. Re graft em in the new and improved cups. Thats the great thing about grafting is you can keep trying til you get it right and they take


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

A Tips to make Grafting eaiser

http://youtu.be/cEdeKwgGVjU


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

Nice start to a vid...more to follow?
Also, what tool were you using to scrape the cell walls down?


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## knoxjk (Sep 10, 2010)

Velbert is a top hand at that grafting!!!! Nice job Velbert!!


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## Jaseemtp (Nov 29, 2010)

Knoxjk you will have to let me know how the queens do. I will be trying my hand at it next week!


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## Jaseemtp (Nov 29, 2010)

Knoxjk you will have to let me know how the queens do. I am going to be trying my hand at it next week.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Scraping tool it's my 7" hive tool from MannLake


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

cool, thanks for the info


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## louborges (May 16, 2009)

Okay, I've made three attempts at getting queen cells. The first two grafting failed. The third attempt was to give them a frame of young larvae and be done with this cell builder hive. When I went and checked on the progress I found one queen cell at the bottom of the frame and I damaged it pulling it out. So I ordered one of those kits where no grafting is required. But here is my concern. The cell builder have is crowed with bees and no queen for 2 plus weeks. Do I need to be concerned about laying workers?


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## Capricorn (Apr 20, 2009)

I think if you give them some brood to rear then you shouldn't have to worry much..


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

only 1 Q cell on an entire frame doesn't really convince me that they're all that queenless...what are the chances of a queen having snuck in there on you? (or the possibility of an AHB queen invading the colony, that DOES happen around here in prime AHB territory).


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## onarock (Sep 28, 2011)

If you are having trouble I would start with grafting larger larvae to get a feel for the tool. I am right handed and use a chinese grafter. I usually start at the left side of the cup. I go down the left side getting the tip under the larvae and the jelly. I pull up vertically just before the tip is going to make contact witht the right wall of the cell. When laying the larvae in the cup (JZ-BZ) I put the tip of the tool just left of center and work left to right. I press the tip till its almost flat. Then I push the larvae off while moving the tool to the right so that the larvae comes off in the center still floating on the jelly. Once the larvae is in thats it. I dont touch them again unless after inspection I dont like it, then I will remove it and replace with a better one.


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