# 18.25% Moisture Content Acceptable?



## bjamesvw

I extracted honey where only all of the cells were capped. The honey looked a little runny so I purchased a refractometer and it reads 18.25%. It has a .5% error and I used extra virgin olive oil to calibrate it which also has a .5% error so it is potentially 19.25%. Would you sell this honey? I have more than I can use and I'd like to recoup some of my expenses but I don't want to give new customers a poor experience. I have some honey from this summer that I extracted earlier and it measures 16% but I like the taste of it better and would rather not sell it.


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## Eduardo Gomes

According to US agriculture handbook number 335 Beekeeping In The United States
"Honey with less than 17.1 percent water will not ferment in a year, irrespective of the yeast count. Between 17.1 and 18 percent moisture, honey with 1000 yeast spores or less per gram will be safe for a year. When moisture is between 18.1 and 19 percent, not more than 10 yeast spores per gram can be present for safe storage. *Above 19 percent water*, honey can be expected to ferment even with only one spore per gram of honey, a level so low as to be very rare." in http://www.kimesapiary.com/Fermentat...l#fermentation


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## bjamesvw

So you wouldn't recommend selling? I've read that clover honey can be well over 20% and be fine. If the honey was completely capped, it's not guaranteed to be ok?


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## sqkcrk

bjamesvw said:


> I extracted honey where only all of the cells were capped. The honey looked a little runny so I purchased a refractometer and it reads 18.25%. It has a .5% error and I used extra virgin olive oil to calibrate it which also has a .5% error so it is potentially 19.25%. Would you sell this honey? I have more than I can use and I'd like to recoup some of my expenses but I don't want to give new customers a poor experience. I have some honey from this summer that I extracted earlier and it measures 16% but I like the taste of it better and would rather not sell it.


Do the directions say to use extra virgin olive oil?


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## Eduardo Gomes

In Portugal the moisture standards in honey are 17%. I'm unaware of the of clover honey in respect to its moisture content. In my country there is no clover honey. In this case I can not help you anymore. I'm sure that in relation to clover honey others might be more accurate. Good luck!


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## sqkcrk

As far as I know, in the US moisture content of honey characteristics are the same for all types of honey, regardless of floral source. By definition, Honey is honey if the moisture content is between 16.5% and 18.5% moisture content.


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## rookie2531

I would sell the best flavored stuff and keep the other for myself or to feed back my bees. If you really don't care for it, what would you think if you bought it from the guy down the road? Would you buy more? Your future customers are more important, no?


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## PeterP

Up to 18.5% should not ferment. If you are worried you could pasturize by heating to 140F for 10 minutes and then cooling quickly. 

I would not sell your second best honey if you plan on developing a clientel base. You could try creaming it. It would be a learning experience and makes a nice item to sell. 

With respect to error margins with your refractometer. They would be plus or minus so the honey may in fact be drier then you are stating. The same wrt calibration errors. 

Sqkcrk - quality olive oil has a well defined % of disolved solids and is often used as a calibration oil. It is much cheaper then commercial calibration oil. It would not meet rigourous standards of some applications but for measuing moisture in honey it works fine.

Regards Peter


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## Mike Gillmore

bjamesvw said:


> I have more than I can use and I'd like to recoup some of my expenses but I don't want to give new customers a poor experience.


How much honey do you have from this extraction?

If you are worried about it you could heat the honey up to kill all the yeast spores. That will temporarily halt any fermentation of the honey. It might alter the flavor of the honey a little bit, but it's better than a bucket of fermenting honey.

If you are trying to build up a customer base you should bite the bullet and sell them the honey from earlier this year, and keep this batch for yourself. Word of mouth is very powerful, and you want it to be positive. I'm small potatoes, but I sell the best I have to my customers. They keep coming back every year. One bad experience and you will probably never see them again. Think about this in the long term and make your decisions accordingly.


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## Rader Sidetrack

According to this USDA Honey Grading document, US Grade A honey can have up to 18.6% moisture. 
http://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/Extracted_Honey_Standard[1].pdf
See pages 10-11, Table IV (filtered honey) or Table V (strained honey) for the 18.6% Grade A criteria. 

They phrase it backwards - a minimum of 81.4% 'soluble solids', which means a maximum moisture content of 18.6%. (81.4% + 18.6% = 100%)


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## jim lyon

bjamesvw said:


> I extracted honey where only all of the cells were capped. The honey looked a little runny so I purchased a refractometer and it reads 18.25%. It has a .5% error and I used extra virgin olive oil to calibrate it which also has a .5% error so it is potentially 19.25%. Would you sell this honey? I have more than I can use and I'd like to recoup some of my expenses but I don't want to give new customers a poor experience. I have some honey from this summer that I extracted earlier and it measures 16% but I like the taste of it better and would rather not sell it.


Blend a small quantity of equal parts of each batch, test the blend for moisture and see if you like the flavor of the mixture. If it meets with your approval you can consider blending the rest.


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## sqkcrk

PeterP said:


> Sqkcrk - quality olive oil has a well defined % of disolved solids and is often used as a calibration oil. It is much cheaper then commercial calibration oil. It would not meet rigourous standards of some applications but for measuing moisture in honey it works fine.
> 
> Regards Peter


Thanks


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## sqkcrk

Rader Sidetrack said:


> According to this USDA Honey Grading document, US Grade A honey can have up to 18.6% moisture.
> http://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/Extracted_Honey_Standard[1].pdf
> See pages 10-11, Table IV (filtered honey) or Table V (strained honey) for the 18.6% Grade A criteria.
> 
> They phrase it backwards - a minimum of 81.4% 'soluble solids', which means a maximum moisture content of 18.6%. (81.4% + 18.6% = 100%)


Yeah, but 18.5% is easier to remember. Especially if you learned it 30 years ago. hardy har har


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## KQ6AR

.5 error, could also mean you're honey is 17.75%
Do you know someone with a more accurate meter?
You could even mail someone a small sample.


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## Mike Gillmore

He got 16% in an earlier extraction. Something is out of whack. Either the honey, or the calibration.


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## mgolden

Keep track of the moisture content of each extraction and blend the high moisture off with low moisture.

Had some 19.5% moisture honey but also had some 16% honey towards the end of the season.


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## JSL

Depending on how much honey you have, you can blend it as Jim suggested to lower the moisture content or simply dry it down.

Keep in mind honey is hyrgoscopic, so exposing the honey to a moist environment will increase moisture content, but exposing it to a dry environment will also decrease the moisture content.


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## Delta Bay

If you feel it looks watery, I would be a little leery selling that honey. If it starts to crystalize the remaining liquid honey can have a higher water content and fermentation may start. May be best to pasteurize and cream it before selling. Possibly you could dehydrate it down to a lower moisture content.


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## radallo

bjamesvw said:


> So you wouldn't recommend selling? I've read that clover honey can be well over 20% and be fine. If the honey was completely capped, it's not guaranteed to be ok?


It will ferment. But on the contrary.. the best is to sell it quickly, before fermentation occurr, with the advice to consume it quickly.

How much do you have?
If you can put into small jars and freeze them until you can sell, you can slow down the process without need of pastorize the honey.

Do not trust cap/uncap cell. Bees cap cells when they are full, not when they are "ready for humans".


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## rookie2531

radallo said:


> It will ferment. But on the contrary.. the best is to sell it quickly, before fermentation occurr, with the advice to consume it quickly.
> 
> How much do you have?
> If you can put into small jars and freeze them until you can sell, you can slow down the process without need of pastorize the honey.
> 
> Do not trust cap/uncap cell. Bees cap cells when they are full, not when they are "ready for humans".


I have yet to make any honey, but this is new news to me. I have always heard, they fan it to dry it before capping and that's why we feed 2:1 in the fall, so they can dry it out faster and cap it. Anyone else care to chime in and enlighten me further?


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## sjj

PeterP said:


> ...It is much cheaper then commercial calibration oil. It would not meet rigourous standards of some applications ...


One can buy a glass test plate for verifying hand refractometers suited for use with honey 
plus a contact liquid. This pair is often called a “Reference Block & Oil” and costs about 6 $. 
A contact liquid is not a calibration reference oil. 

Regards


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## Mike Gillmore

rookie2531 said:


> Anyone else care to chime in and enlighten me further?


I have a 5 gallon bucket of wasted fermented honey in my basement which was extracted last year. All the frames were capped when I extracted so I thought it would be fine, but it was borderline on my refractometer at 18.5%. I was not paying attention and the bottom half of the bucket granulated, which increased the moisture content of the honey in the top half. I didn't realize it was fermenting until I noticed the bucket lid bulging up. Ruined the whole bucket of honey.


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## radallo

rookie2531 said:


> I have yet to make any honey, but this is new news to me. I have always heard, they fan it to dry it before capping and that's why we feed 2:1 in the fall, so they can dry it out faster and cap it. Anyone else care to chime in and enlighten me further?


Bees venitlate air from the environment. Honey is hygroscopic. RH is always changing water content in honey.

Anyway, bees cap cells when they are full: most of the times, they manage to dry the honey enough (according to human standard) while they fully fill the cell... several time they fail.


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## radallo

Mike Gillmore said:


> I have a 5 gallon bucket of wasted fermented honey in my basement which was extracted last year. All the frames were capped when I extracted so I thought it would be fine, but it was borderline on my refractometer at 18.5%. I was not paying attention and the bottom half of the bucket granulated, which increased the moisture content of the honey in the top half. I didn't realize it was fermenting until I noticed the bucket lid bulging up. Ruined the whole bucket of honey.


Honey is living food.. its hygroscopic property will work even after extraction...


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## jim lyon

Mike Gillmore said:


> I have a 5 gallon bucket of wasted fermented honey in my basement which was extracted last year. All the frames were capped when I extracted so I thought it would be fine, but it was borderline on my refractometer at 18.5%. I was not paying attention and the bottom half of the bucket granulated, which increased the moisture content of the honey in the top half. I didn't realize it was fermenting until I noticed the bucket lid bulging up. Ruined the whole bucket of honey.


I'm never comfortable with any readings over 18%. I've had a few occasions where I have ended up with honey in my bulk tanks that had such readings. My solution was to half fill drums and set them back until we get into dryer honey which I used to top off the drums. After filling I would stir them well and retest. It worked perfectly for me.


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## KQ6AR

I gave a 5 gal bucket that started to ferment to a friend for mead making this year.
The honey extracted at about 16.5%, but started to crystallize within a couple weeks. 
Just like Mike's the liquid 1/2 of the bucket started to ferment because of the higher moisture content of that portion of the honey.

My meter is a Misco digital that calibrates with distilled water.


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## squarepeg

it's a little extra work but i have been bringing my supers inside the garage (extracting room) for 2 days before extracting. the garage is serviced by the central a/c and thus the humidity is lower in there than it is outside.

i set a floor fan horizontally on 4" blocks and place the supers on the fan blowing air through them. 

this year i purchased a dehumidifier and run that in the garage for the 2 days as well. it gets the humidity down to about 40%. refractometer readings with a digital atago after extraction have been coming in consistently at +/- 17%.

17% is just thicker enough for most customers to notice the difference and we very often get feedback that our honey is noticeably better than expected if not the best. repeat sales are the norm and demand is always ahead of supply.

one concern about bringing the supers in for 48 hours is that small hive beetle larvae may hatch and ruin the honey. this has not happened so far but the beetle traps are effective and i tend to keep an eye on the frames prior to extracting.

this may more trouble than it's worth for some but for us and with only extracting a couple of supers per weekend it works out pretty good.

happy thanksgiving everyone!


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## bjamesvw

I ended up blending the honey I extracted this summer with the honey extracted this fall to get the moisture level low enough. Thank you everyone for all the input.


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## radallo

bjamesvw said:


> I ended up blending the honey I extracted this summer with the honey extracted this fall to get the moisture level low enough. Thank you everyone for all the input.


this is a good solution, if you do not mind to blend different honey lots.


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## Lightswitch

Not meaning to derail the thread from its original intent, the reading made me wonder about what happens to capped honey bees keep for feeding over the winter: does it ferment on the frames if it was capped with higher humidity content, and if it does, do the bees still consume it? Or the cold months in Winter keep the honey from fermenting as it sits unconsumed by the bees? Thanks for any info: this is my first winter, and I left all honey frames to the bees...


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## radallo

Lightswitch said:


> Not meaning to derail the thread from its original intent, the reading made me wonder about what happens to capped honey bees keep for feeding over the winter: does it ferment on the frames if it was capped with higher humidity content, and if it does, do the bees still consume it? Or the cold months in Winter keep the honey from fermenting as it sits unconsumed by the bees? Thanks for any info: this is my first winter, and I left all honey frames to the bees...


honey can ferment even if capped (if it was stored with high humidity)

cold months can slow down the process, but please consider that the temperature within the hive is not the outside temperature

leaving all the honey frames to the bees is not a mistake.. well, to be correct, bees should be wintered on the honey. If you have 4 frames of bees and you leave them 9 frames with honey.. this might require extra effort for the bees during the winter.. since the honey frames will absorb heat. But of course you can beeter isolate hive, you can return honey frames later, and this general consideration can be different from site to site according to climatic conditions and beekeeping practices.


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## tkishkape

A "ruined" bucket of honey? Fermented honey is called "Meade", a very sweet alcoholic drink. Don't waste it... drink it for a special occasion.


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## Mike Gillmore

I wish it were that easy to make meade. A little more to it than just fermented honey in a bucket.


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## radallo

Mike Gillmore said:


> I wish it were that easy to make meade. A little more to it than just fermented honey in a bucket.


+1. Especially if your goal is having a good meade!


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## Mike Gillmore

Exactly. I would not want to drink a glass of meade that has a hint of musky yeast to it. 

If I would have caught mine earlier it may have been usable, but it went on too long. Does not smell very pleasant right now. It's still sitting there, I really don't know what to do with it.


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## radallo

Mike Gillmore said:


> Exactly. I would not want to drink a glass of meade that has a hint of musky yeast to it.
> 
> If I would have caught mine earlier it may have been usable, but it went on too long. Does not smell very pleasant right now. It's still sitting there, I really don't know what to do with it.


Tough question.. you can try to turn it into vinegar maybe...


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## BCasey

bjamesvw said:


> I extracted honey where only all of the cells were capped. The honey looked a little runny so I purchased a refractometer and it reads 18.25%. It has a .5% error and I used extra virgin olive oil to calibrate it which also has a .5% error so it is potentially 19.25%. Would you sell this honey? I have more than I can use and I'd like to recoup some of my expenses but I don't want to give new customers a poor experience. I have some honey from this summer that I extracted earlier and it measures 16% but I like the taste of it better and would rather not sell it.


Sorry to interrupt, but your method of propagating uncertainty is in error. I found this explanation at: http://lectureonline.cl.msu.edu/~mmp/labs/error/e2.htm


Addition of measured quantities
If you have measured values for the quantities X, Y, and Z, with uncertainties dX, dY, and dZ, and your final result, R, is the sum or difference of these quantities, then the uncertainty dR is:









Here the upper equation is an approximation that can also serve as an upper bound for the error. Please note that the rule is the same for addition and subtraction of quantities.


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## emrude

I am surprised that no one has suggested he make mead. I have been sipping a gifted bottle of mead and it is quite good.  ( Okay maybe I've been drinking too much of the mead. I completely missed the posts above about mead.) 

Thanks to all the experts on the moisture contents of honey. I tested some honey from Michigan that tested 14%. My honey has been right around 17%. I have not sold any. I give it away. I gave one jar to my neighbor across the street. I came back and wanting two more jars. Since he has plowed my driveway for bad snow storms and my garden in spring without asking for money, I was happy to give him two more jars. 

Mary


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## mbevanz

Early season honey is always dryer here in the hardwoods of Indiana.


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## BCasey

emrude said:


> I am surprised that no one has suggested he make mead. I have been sipping a gifted bottle of mead and it is quite good.  ( Okay maybe I've been drinking too much of the mead. I completely missed the posts above about mead.)
> 
> Thanks to all the experts on the moisture contents of honey. I tested some honey from Michigan that tested 14%. My honey has been right around 17%. I have not sold any. I give it away. I gave one jar to my neighbor across the street. I came back and wanting two more jars. Since he has plowed my driveway for bad snow storms and my garden in spring without asking for money, I was happy to give him two more jars.
> 
> Mary


You know I've thought of making mead, but to be honest, by the time, I've extracted the honey, prepared the hives to get through winter, and begun bottling the honey, I have no interest in making mead. I have to get back to my normal life! (translation, I've got one more hive than I planned for this summer  
I do have friends however, who are beer brewers. In the past I've relied on inspection to find whether a super is well capped, extraction into 5 gallon buckets, so if one super is bad it doesn't ruin the whole lot. Keeping covers on, etc. But even so, from time to time, I've had some bottles that have acted up over time. That is why I tuned into this discussion, and why I have purchased a refractometer, and have started using it while bottling. If I find some bucket has high moisture content, I have suggested to my brewing friends that a bucket maybe forthcoming. If that happens I'll try and come back to let you know how it turns out!


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