# Virgin Queens



## russbee (Mar 6, 2007)

Thoughts on the marketing of virgin queens? Is there a possibly market?


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

I wouldn’t be interested, if I am going to pay for a queen plus shipping I want a proven egg layer. Also queen breeders are set up for better mating environment for the selected qualities that they are advertising .


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

Virgins are not as popular among big operations as queen cells are,
as cells are easier to handle.

Of course, one is shooting craps when open-mating queens in 
some areas, as both drone density and weather can be 
serious problems.

...and don't even think about virgins or cells in AHB infested areas,
for obvious reasons.


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## nursebee (Sep 29, 2003)

No market. By the time I'd get her I'd have to coax her to mate. Have you ever tried that with a virgn?


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## russbee (Mar 6, 2007)

*Virgin Queen's*

 All great point's! thanks...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Thoughts on the marketing of virgin queens? 

The usefullness, in my opinion, would be to someone who want's to get local feral genetics but no time to go catch swarms. They could buy a feral survivor queen, which may not be from their specific area, but maybe from a similar climate and let it open mate with the local drones.

I have not tried to market them nor has anyone requested them.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

We'll get virgins when we insemiante. Virgins survive much better throug hthe mails with attendants. Have had them sent in battery boxes solo and with attendants.

They are 1/4 to half price of mated queen depending on who makes them for us.


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## mwjohnson (Nov 19, 2004)

I thought I read somewhere that a virgin queen,which is more than old enough that she should have mated already,are really hard to introduce.

True or false?

IF true,how long exactly is "old enough to have mated already be" would you say?


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

mwjohnson said:


> I thought I read somewhere that a virgin queen,which is more than old enough that she should have mated already,are really hard to introduce.
> 
> True or false?
> 
> IF true,how long exactly is "old enough to have mated already be" would you say?


Two weeks is the upper limit on a virgin getting mated successfully.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

In my limited experience, virgin queens aren't accepted nearly as well as mated queens. If you wanted local drone genetics then cells are the way to go. Again, in my limited experience, queens that emerge in a colony are readily accepted. 

For all the reasons mentioned by earlier posters as well as the issue of acceptance, I wouldn't consider buying virgin queens but have and will again buy cells.


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## mwjohnson (Nov 19, 2004)

thanks,
I have a problem communicating,according to my wife..

What I am trying to ask is;

I thought...that a virgin typically takes her mating flight at 3-5 days old. T or F?

I also thought that a virgin older than that is supposed to be difficult to introduce. T or F ?

Roger Morse (Rearing Queen Honey Bees)say's virgin's should "never be caged,mailed or confined". T or F ?

I've seen virgins offered for sale(and have thought about getting some),but given the above statement,never did.

I watched a friend of mine catch a bunch of virgin swarm queens last year when he was making splits, and he cages them on the spot, then takes them home and puts them into a mating hive, and he has for a long time ,with good results, which further confused me.

Mailing seems kinda dicey to me, I think.
But nursebee, FYI, I've never tried to coax a virgin into mating...

Thanks for your opinions all
Mark


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I thought...that a virgin typically takes her mating flight at 3-5 days old. T or F?

In my experience, F. She's more likley to mate about a week after emerging but it varies a lot of course. 3-5 is what Morse says. But he also says she will "mate about 12 to 18 times in two or three flights over a period of two to four days." So by the time she's done, he's saying it's 5-9 days after emergence.

>I also thought that a virgin older than that is supposed to be difficult to introduce. T or F ?

I don't have enough experience at it to give a good estimate. I've only tried it a few times with a some of them succeeding and some failing and I haven't tried to work out a system to introduce them. Mostly I introduce cells.

>Roger Morse (Rearing Queen Honey Bees)say's virgin's should "never be caged,mailed or confined". T or F ?

Not exactly. In the section on Virgin queens, Morse says: "Once egg laying has commenced, queens may be caged, used to requeen colonies or shipped without difficulty. As far as we are aware, no queen has ever been observed leaving the hive after she has started to lay eggs, except to accompany a swarm." I see nothing that specifies you shouldn't ship a virgin, although he implies it.

He makes an interesting observation on laying queens leaving the hive, since I've seen laying queens outside the hive on several occasions. It is certainly rare, but not so rare I haven't seen it. They were marked, laying queens. Once I even found a marked laying queen from one hive in the hive next door being balled and have no idea what she was doing there.


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## mwjohnson (Nov 19, 2004)

Thanks Mr.Bee,

I appreciate and respect your opinions and observations,it helps to get another view when experts contradict each other,which usually seems to be the case in beekeeping. 

>I see nothing that specifies you shouldn't ship a virgin,although he implies it.<
Had to go and look it up...he say's on pg.28... "In no case should virgin queens be caged,mailed or otherwise confined."
WHY?
I believe he is concerned with having the queen mated as soon as possible in order to produce a first rate queen,and not refering to future introduction issues,but I'm really just asking a question.

Then this from Larry Connor in the April 2006 bee culture article "The Ideal Nucleus".....he say's "which makes me wonder why sexually ready virgins are not used more often".
WHY?
Is it just that "cells are easier to handle"?
Or are older virgins old enough to have already mated, (as in been through the mail) any harder to introduce?

Just asking,I have been interested in the idea too russbee,and don't mean to hijack your thread.

Do anyone on here use(have tried) virgins? Would love to hear your thinking!

Sorry to beat a dead horse

Thanks,
Mark


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## Riki (Jan 31, 2007)

From what I've read, the problem with introducing virgins is in the pheromones (their age would not be the main issue - sorry for my english, hope you understand what I mean); the composition of the pheromones change after mating, making a mated queen more "acceptable".
I've tried to introduce virgins queens about 15 years ago (I wasn't a good beekeeper at that time; maybe I'm still not, but I've learned a lot since then); there were some mated queens also. The overall results were poor and, if I recall right, none of the virgins were succesfully introduced. I can't remember if I even knew how old they were...

Regards


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