# New beek wanting to go foundationless...



## huskyseehuskydo (Jun 1, 2013)

Hey all,

This is my first year beekeeping and we have two hives going in one deep brood each. We started with Mann Lake RiteCell foundation and to make a long story short, I made a newbie mistake and gave them to much bee space. They drew comb in the space (stick straight I may add) and its almost a full frame's worth. It does have capped brood, so I decided to tie it into a foundationless frame. In the midst of making this decision, I stumbled upon going foundationless. I really wish I would have known about foundationless from the start! I would have just started my beekeeping career like that. So now I'm getting ready to add a medium on top of my almost full deep and I am just befuddled as to a game plan to get the deeps to be foundationless. I don't mind the bottom brood being a deep, because I'm under the impression from my mentors that I probably won't be moving it that much. Plus, I'm 116 lbs soaking wet and currently pregnant. I really want to make the rest of the colony mediums if possible. So that throws the idea of being able to move things around a bit from bottom brood to top brood out the window. I'm probably rambling here.

My goals are: going foundationless and sticking with mediums from here on out.
How to go about that or what kind of game plan to follow, I am just at a loss. Any advice or ideas for a newbie??? Thanks!


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

The key to foundationless is one straight comb leads to another I run all mediums so when I put on a new box I just pull up a frame as a guide and let them do their thing in you case you can't do that so if it were my hive I would put a med frame in between some drawn comb in your deep and let them draw it out cut off any hanging below and rubber band it into another frame if there is enough to mess with and from there you should be good to go just remember to correct and crooked comb early because they won't fix it for you and the problem compounds as it goes


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## Ben Franklin (May 3, 2011)

When you go foundationless,,do you put a starter peice of foundation on the top of the bar, or do you just put in empty frames??


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## huskyseehuskydo (Jun 1, 2013)

Okay, that makes sense Harley. Thankfully, my newbie mistake was drawn between two with foundation, so it is stick straight. If I were to decide to go ALL mediums, would I pop a medium below the deep with a full frame and they would hopefully come down and start working on drawing and laying brood after the deep hatches out? I should also mention the foundationless frames I have ready, I did glue a paint stick into the top groove as a guide.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

My frames have a milled v in them no need for a starter strip you your popsicle sticks will work well that is what I use on my TBH if you have wedge frames you can just pop the wedge and turn on its side and glue in place as well you can put a foundationless between frames with foundation but sometimes they make it too wide and on one of my hives they made a weird s shape where they started on foundation jumped to foundationless and then curved over and attached to the foundation on the other side


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Not sure about ditching the deep I started off all med so I have no experience with that sorry when all else fails there is always chop and crop but I'm sure there is a better way somebody with more experience will surely come along and help you


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## huskyseehuskydo (Jun 1, 2013)

Yeah, I'm really kicking myself for not listening to my gut and just starting out with mediums. That had been my original plan, but being new to all of this, I listened to all of the beekeepers around here tell me that my broods needed to be deeps, so I quickly ordered some before my bees came home.

I had my mediums all ready to go with every other frame having foundation and the foundationless in between with a guide glued in. I posted here just to see if there was a better way to get started with foundationless. Will they naturally fill in the foundationless space first? I'm hoping that they'll start there and I can move frames around accordingly and be able to take the foundation frames out without too much waste involved.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

That is what I did when I started and like I said ended up with wonky comb comb on a few of them others turned out ok if I had to do it all over again I would start with all foundation and once I had a couple of good ones start feeding the foundationless between them to get them started if everybody else is running deeps you may want to keep them untill you get enough meds going you can rob resources from yourself if a med goes queenless and you need to get a frame of eggs off someone else you might be in trouble if everyone has deeps


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## huskyseehuskydo (Jun 1, 2013)

Didn't think of that. Hmmm... I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of trial and error to this.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Yip welcome to beekeeping if you ask 10 beekeepers the same question you will get 12 different answers you just have to figure out what works for you and your girls that will help you accomplish your goals


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

There's no need to worry about switching anything out yet. You can put that off for a good long time. My suggestion is to simply carry on with the new frame size and type you want for the next year or two. Add foundationless medium frames and boxes on top of the deeps you already have. Allow the bees to build up into them as much as they want (and keep an eye on the comb, a whole box of foundationless is asking for trouble if you don't keep track of it). Later on when you have expanded your collection of medium drawn comb frames and boxes, pick a time when the bees are for the most part not in the bottom deep and either remove it from the hive or move it to the top where it will be filled with honey. Early in spring is a handy time to do this, it's much easier when the brood nest is not in there. 

My main point is, you don't need to do anything now, or ever really if you just want to leave the deep on the bottom. Carry on like it's not a problem and at some point when the opportunity presents itself, remove it or put it on top. But there's no need to over extend yourself and get rid of it now through a bunch of manipulations.

To answer your other question, mixing foundation with foundationless is just as fraught with problems as all foundationless is. You're likely to get comb built in places that won't be convenient. The best place for a foundationless frame is always between two frames of drawn comb in my experience.


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## huskyseehuskydo (Jun 1, 2013)

I was just concerned about starting out how I want to go along. What you say about just keeping the deep where it is makes a lot of sense. I'm using Rite Cell right now from Mann Lake. Maybe I'll just stick with this and then when I get a little more experience under my belt go foundationless? I will say that the natural comb that my bees are making are approx 5.4mm and the Mann Lake is regressing them to 5.0 I believe. I guess regression is a bit more important to me as I'd like to try and naturally protect them from varroa. So I guess I need to just decide what is most important to me at the moment as I'm still learning the ropes.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Interesting numbers. I doubt Rite-Cell is 5.0, more like 5.4, according to the documentation on Mr. Bush's website. You may be thinking of Mann Lake's standard plastic frames which have a cell size of 4.95mm. So as you can see, there is probably not much regression going on at all. Rite Cell is a different product. I argue that regression does not quickly happen through foundationless methods. That's my experience.

That being said, cell size is not the only factor. There is a user here who keeps a couple dozen hives on standard cell size treatment-free.


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## huskyseehuskydo (Jun 1, 2013)

Okay, that's good to know. Hmm... I ordered Rite Cell, maybe that's not what I received. Like I said, I'm a complete beginner. All I know, is that the natural comb they drew is bigger than the foundation I'm giving them.

So, down to brass tacks, because I don't necessarily like to talk something to death. I like to make decisions and go with them.

With the info I've given you. Would you just continue on with the equipment I have and NOT go foundationless at this stage? With me being a beginner, I don't want to throw all sorts of variables into this and make it harder than it is, but I do want to go as natural as possible. Being mostly treatment free and having healthy bees is more important to me than than going foundationless at this stage. I had originally thought that the two went hand in hand, but now after talking with you fine folks, I'm realizing that's not always the case.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I am not a big fan of foundationless. I find it to be useful in making cheap drone comb. The only time I have ever had it be successful with it is when it is between two drawn frames. There are others on here who do much better, but that's how I use it and that's what works for me. 

I'd say do what you're doing until it doesn't work. If it works, keep doing it. If it doesn't work, do something else. I can't (or won't) just tell you what to do. There are no guarantees in any direction. I can only tell you what I've done, and I've never used large cell foundation, much less plastic.

I would suggest grabbing a cheap set of calipers or a metric ruler to measure your comb before citing numbers though. There was a guy on here a while back who came in complaining that his foundationless (and therefore in his mind "small cell") bees were dying. Turns out his comb was nearly drone comb. No wonder they were dying. The pseudo drone theory states that varroa problems lie in not enough size differential between workers and drones.


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## huskyseehuskydo (Jun 1, 2013)

Okay, I value your honesty, I really do. I basically just wanted someone more experienced than I to tell me like it is. Not necessarily asking you to tell me what to do, but what YOU would do is what I was after. I did measure, and that is why I was confused. May I ask what you use for foundation? I was excited about the one natural comb they made because it happened so QUICKLY, but if its going to be a pain in the long run, I don't need any more variables thrown in than I'm already facing as a newb.


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## honeydrunk (Dec 29, 2012)

I stuck a medium foundationless into the deep broodnest, it is getting filled out just fine, might go out and take a pic, maybe measure it as well. It is possible, just takes time, some head scratching and lots of question asking.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

As often mentioned by others, I am finding that they draw foundationless frames well between brood frames or frames of capped honey. Be ruthless in correcting any wonky comb - they'll never fix it themselve and it will only get worse with subsequent frames. My LC nucs drew 5.4mm worker comb in foundationless frames - so no natural regression at all. I am using PF120's to regress. They draw out foundationless frames at least twice as fast at they draw out the PF120's. I am not sure if they will get better with the PF120's once they are smaller.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>. I'm using Rite Cell right now from Mann Lake. Maybe I'll just stick with this and then when I get a little more experience under my belt go foundationless? 

Rite cell will be 5.4mm. Bad if you want regressed bees to deal with Varroa. PF 100s and PF 120s are 4.95mm. Good if you want regressed bees to deal with Varroa. Natural drawn comb will be somewhere in the range of 5.2mm to 4.7mm on the first regression and somewhere between 5.1mm and 4.6mm on the second, in the core of the brood nest. The goal for Varroa suppression is 4.9mm but 5.0mm seems to work well enough.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm

Foundationless is easy enough.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

huskyseehuskydo said:


> May I ask what you use for foundation?


I use a combination of small cell wax foundation and Mann Lake PF type frames. They both work better if you keep them separate until they're fully drawn. I find that mixing types, of any of the types will cause issues.


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## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

Ben Franklin said:


> When you go foundationless,,do you put a starter peice of foundation on the top of the bar, or do you just put in empty frames??


we do the melted wax down the top bar method. that works awesome i must say. the only NON foundationless frames in all of our hives is the 5 that we got when we bought nucs. we are dead set on foundationless. and the bees are starting to be tiny plump girls. the feral colonies we have been blessed with this year are the best. i do have to admit that our top bar hives bees draw much faster than our lang bees. im working on a system to have them draw our frames then add them to our langs .


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## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

Harley Craig said:


> Not sure about ditching the deep I started off all med so I have no experience with that sorry when all else fails there is always chop and crop but I'm sure there is a better way somebody with more experience will surely come along and help you



i would recommend phasing them out. it takes time but its less stress on the girls and if ur not planning on moving them take it slow. its not like u need to be in a hurry.


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## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

huskyseehuskydo said:


> Yeah, I'm really kicking myself for not listening to my gut and just starting out with mediums. That had been my original plan, but being new to all of this, I listened to all of the beekeepers around here tell me that my broods needed to be deeps, so I quickly ordered some before my bees came home.
> 
> I had my mediums all ready to go with every other frame having foundation and the foundationless in between with a guide glued in. I posted here just to see if there was a better way to get started with foundationless. Will they naturally fill in the foundationless space first? I'm hoping that they'll start there and I can move frames around accordingly and be able to take the foundation frames out without too much waste involved.




uhhhh the major thing u need to worry about is splitting up the brood chamber too much. reust me i found out how bad it is this year. just search for my thread entitled "never checkerboarding again" . it really slowed them down for weeks and they are just starting to build population now.


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## huskyseehuskydo (Jun 1, 2013)

Hmmm... Since this is my first year, I just don't have any drawn comb to put the foundationless frames between. I haven't even added another box to the first deep brood box yet. Its time now, but I wanted to get an idea of what others would do before I added the medium on top of the deep brood box. I gotta say, I'm more confused than ever now...


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## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

huskyseehuskydo said:


> Okay, that's good to know. Hmm... I ordered Rite Cell, maybe that's not what I received. Like I said, I'm a complete beginner. All I know, is that the natural comb they drew is bigger than the foundation I'm giving them.
> 
> So, down to brass tacks, because I don't necessarily like to talk something to death. I like to make decisions and go with them.
> 
> With the info I've given you. Would you just continue on with the equipment I have and NOT go foundationless at this stage? With me being a beginner, I don't want to throw all sorts of variables into this and make it harder than it is, but I do want to go as natural as possible. Being mostly treatment free and having healthy bees is more important to me than than going foundationless at this stage. I had originally thought that the two went hand in hand, but now after talking with you fine folks, I'm realizing that's not always the case.



my 2 cents with only 2 1/2-3 years of beekeeping is :
-we run one deep on the bottom. and run mediums the rest of the way up.
we pretty much have plenty of brood for any occasion whenever we need it.
-foundationless. of course saves alot of money in work. no wiring,no worries of the chems in the foundation,no pre sized/aligned cells so
the girls d as they need.
-never treated for anything. we DO feed though early spring.
-we also keep top bar hives as well and they draw like crazy in our experience. we have this year cutout brood from a top bar hive and banded into a medium frame for a queenless hive and today we are making nucs with extra queen cells.

that is how we are running our apiary. everything changes yearly and it should because they are always chellenges when dealing with keeping livestock. but we are pretty much setting up our apiary the way we like it now.

we also like to over winter in deeps. 

basically u have to figure out what works for u. we are treatment free but if we ever come under attack from something we would probably take necessary action if there is no other way to defend the hives. 

we also run all screen bottom boards as of this year ..... and we are sold on them. it made a huge difference with our bees this year.


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## tommysnare (Jan 30, 2013)

honeydrunk said:


> I stuck a medium foundationless into the deep broodnest, it is getting filled out just fine, might go out and take a pic, maybe measure it as well. It is possible, just takes time, some head scratching and lots of question asking.


what we do to draw out medium foundationless frames in a deep brood box...with them drawing it out on the bottom bar is leave the bottom bar off. them when it is drawn down well we put the bottom bar on. they seem to finish filling it faster TO the bar that way. minimal comb removal of extra comb off the bottom bar. did it by accident once hahaha. sticking with it ever since.


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## mainubeek (Sep 24, 2012)

I'm in the process of switching from two ten-frame deeps to three eight-frame mediums for brood boxes. Here's what I'm doing, which (so far) seems to be working:

At the end of the winter, the bees were in the upper ten-frame deep. So I took the bottom box off, moved the top box to the bottom position, and added an eight-frame medium on top. I added the eight-frame box on one side of the hive, over the cluster, and used a small board with a couple of bricks on top of it to close the gap.

In the eight-frame medium, I put six foundationless frames (F) and two frames of drawn comb (C) from an old honey super, like so: FFCFFCFF. That way the queen could use the comb as a ladder to get up into the box, and the comb would hopefully help the bees draw out the other combs straight. For foundationless frames, I used standard wedge frames, with the wedge broken out and nailed/glued back in on edge. No wax starter strip.

Right at the beginning, the bees made one misstep (from my point of view; from their point of view, I'm sure it was the right thing to do). They build a sphere of comb up from the top of the frames in the bottom box, incorporating the bottom rails of two of the frames in the top box. I scraped it out, and they rebuilt it, so I scraped it out again. By then others had started building nice, straight comb down from the top of the frames in the top box, and they have been doing beautifully since then (knock on wood).

At some point, perhaps next spring, when there are no bees left in the bottom ten-frame deep box, I will remove it. And then I will have a brood box consisting of three eight-frame mediums. In the meantime, I'm planning to cut the deep combs down to mediums to use as ladders in future medium boxes.


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## hlhart2014 (Jun 11, 2012)

Currently I have one hive that I am experimenting with foundationless...8 frame deeps..I am on the 3rd deep..I placed foundationless in between some drawn out frames(tried to do every other frame, but some I just put a couple of foundationless together) in each box and they have done great! I used wooden dowels as guides and they have had no problem..I found one on the end that was crooked but they were just beginning and so I took it off and let them start again. This hive is booming! At some point I would like to take out all the ones with foundation and put in foundationless so that all the deeps will be foundationless. I didn't wire any of these. I say just start and see how they do!


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