# Mass selection vs individual selection and other breeding tools



## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Thanks FP. I learned more from this small excerpt on breeding methods than I have the entire time I've been researching on my own, lots of valuable information here. My long term goal is to accomplish a program that resembles the mass selection concept. By long term, I mean maybe before I'm dead. There are still so many questions I have, and need to get into some serious reading on the subject. Great post.


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## ShrekVa (Jan 13, 2011)

Great post, thanks.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Maybe one day I will try the mass selection method.
Now going for the individual to increase my hive number first.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Interesting read: 

*Return to Resistance: Breeding Crops to Reduce Pesiticide Depedence*
by Raoul A. Robinson, ISBN 0-9731816-0-5
http://freethebees.ch/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Return-to-Resistance.pdf

Also favours mass selection. Applies to bees as well, I reckon.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Bernhard, that is a standard text that I have debated endlessly with others who are interested in breeding. Raoul Robinson wrote based on an easily understood premise. He got one major part wrong, that is in terms of "vertical" and "horizontal" resistance which he described like it is black and white when in reality there is a lot of gray. Modern genetics has painted a much better picture. I can give examples of single genes that convey resistance to a disease or pest and have stood the test of time for hundreds of years. I can give others where a single highly touted resistance gene was overcome in the field in less than 2 years. I like a comparison someone made on another forum to the effect that killing mites with 5 pound hammers is not something mites develop resistance to. It does not matter if the hammer is made of brass or iron or even wood, mites simply don't develop resistance to hammers. Genes can be this way. Some of them are 5 lb hammers, others are like feathers easily brushed aside.

What you hinted at with the comment "Applies to bees as well, I reckon" begs an explanation. Cows are bred using individual selection methods. We will never breed cows with any other selection method except individual selection. This is because a single cow can produce a limited number of offspring. DNA analysis will make this process faster and more precise, yet fundamentally, it will always be individual selection for cattle. Mass Selection works for species that produce hundreds or thousands of offspring. A single maize plant can produce 350 to 700 seed, in just 3 generations, that could yeild over 300,000,000 seed. This makes maize highly amenable to mass selection methods. Honeybees can produce hundreds of offspring from one queen in a year, not on the scale of maize, but in three generations can still be in the millions of reproducing offspring. This means honeybees are also amenable to mass selection. This suggests rule one of mass selection breeding, the species involved must be capable of producing large numbers of offspring.

Elephant breeding is a dying art, not because it is inherently difficult, but because the elephants outlive the breeders. Honey bee breeding is the opposite of elephant breeding with very fast generation cycles such that 4 or 5 generations can be produced in a year compared with the elephant that takes 20 to 30 years to reproduce. This suggests the second rule of mass breeding, the species must have relatively fast generation time.

Now lets put the rules together.

1. Select a species capable of producing large numbers of offspring
2. Select a species that has a relatively fast generation time
3. Choose a large population to set up the breeding program
4. Apply strong selective pressure
5. Breed from the survivors.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Fusion_power said:


> ... killing mites with 5 pound hammers is not something mites develop resistance to.


I say they can get resistant to hammers. They simple need to show avoidance behaviour. So not everything is genetics, in fact genetics play a minor part in resistance and immunity. That has to be, because otherwise life would be wiped out fast. Diseases develop faster than genetics can adapt to. Also new diseases show up from time to time. Living things have to have a toolbox full of mechanisms to react to that.

Life is very flexible and can react quickly to life threats. In many different ways. Behaviour is one big key in biology.

From what I have experienced so far in survival tests:

50 % is nutrition
45 % is queen fitness
5 % is genetics


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Excellent posts, Dar. I predict that your Jumbo Dadant hives render enough thriving colonies to make use of the mass selection breeding method in just a few years. Good luck!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Somewhat true Bernhard, but when dealing with something as acute as Varroa, I would say genetics plays a much more important role in the colonies longterm health or survival. No amount of nutrition or queen fitness overcomes the mite infestation, although I hear some claims on bees just simply outbreeding the mites but w/o some tolerance or ability to keep the mite population in check, I don't see how this statement holds any validity. I don't believe any bee, no matter how prolific can outbreed varroa without some resistance traits working against the mites.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Geneticists discussing honeybees (and social insects in general) describe bees as facing an acutely small effective breeding population. The chain of induction goes: An individual virgin queen can only fly so far, well distributed feral hives are sparse in nature, the thus the effective breeding population of a queen is very small. This is a unique problem to social insects with single reproductive females. 

The polyandry mating system evolved by bees is an evolutionary response to the small effective population. It provides a counter-weight to the small mating population. The rate of recombination (crossing over) in bees is a magnitude greater than most other organisms. Crossing-over increases the effective population diversity -- and the very high rate evolved by bees validates the concern that small effective population size is a driving constraint and the bees have evolved unique accomodations to this issue.

These findings militate against the conception of bees as a candidate for mass selection --- the natural history of the organism indicate the real genetic constraint is overly narrow selection leading to loss of vigor. The bee's breeding system is organized around the core principle of avoiding inbreeding selection and depression, while preserving the single queen society. 

The real world impact of the breeding system is clear -- bees revert to the "norm". Decades of VSH/Hygenic genes have been released into general population, and these genes wash out of the phenotype of the "average bee" in three generations. This is not due to the "conspiratorial evil of commercial breeders" -- as the current popular hate has it -- it is in the nature of the bees. 

All commercial breeders in my region are using some levels of VSH or similar selected stock, and I expect this pattern is widespread nationally.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I had a brief discussion on this subject with Fusion the other night, it was quite interesting. To maintain diversity, I think this is the best approach for bees. I also think there's a duality in the method in that you need to have the population to identify the individuals to breed from, so it does somewhat seem to be relegated to individual breeding in the end, except the mating behaviors of bees kind of makes all daughter queens off any single queen a population in of itself you need to continually select from which is what I think the ultimate point of this conversation is.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Would Brother Adam have been successful without artificial insemination?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Brother Adam was successful for 30 years before he was able to use AI. Further, he was successful with breeding Acarine resistant bees by the simple expedient of breeding from the survivors and implementing an individual selection protocol riding on top of a mass selection event. He picked the best breeder queens and culled any that showed acarine susceptibility. This was not complex to do, it was the natural extension of finding that his Italian bees were somewhat resistant to acarine.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

This is out of Erik Österlund`s blog about Hans-Otto Johnsen:



> Learning and teaching
> 
> Today we understand that adaptation of bees to fighting Varroa isn’t only selection breeding, natural or beekeepers’, for changing the DNA composition, but also epigenteic adaptation, the change of expression of the DNA as a result of changed environmental pressure on the bees. This turns the focus to the importance of locally adapted bee stock. Now research is going on with a third adaptation step, how bees learn how to deal with challenges and how they pass on this knowledge to other bees, worker bees to worker bees.
> 
> ...


In an area with only treated hives around you and their drones mating with your resistant queens and your limit of hives being 10-15 in one apiary because of food supply how will you be able to do mass selection?
So we have to use other tools, too.
Some use stress breeding, meaning making splits in fall with only your drones around but this is a dangerous way starting to inbreed if it`s done from one strain of bees.
Some exchange virus tolerant queens, very good idea since they have similar locations.

With an idea like above it could be possible to have another tool on the path to resistance. A new acquaintance I have, a very experienced swiss beekeeper, now takes foreign swarms from non resistant colonies into his treatment free apiaries so they learn resistant behavior from his drifting foragers. This could be the start to epigenetic behavior.


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## greengage (Jul 6, 2015)

Well done to everyone who contributed to this, Interesting reading, I hope the fact I commented on this will allow me to access the info again, As I would need to read it again to digist all the info. sorry if Iam wasting time.


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## Knisely (Oct 26, 2013)

SiWolKe, I'm intrigued by the possibility of worker-to-worker transmission of 'knowledge'. There are a number of examples that have been colleccted of how in one colony one approach to solve a problem can be learned by observing another individual, and how a neighboring colony this behavior has never been taught or learned. The examples that come most readily to my mind at this moment are ones like inserting a stick to harvest nutritious termites from within a termite mound, which may dovetail with an improved evolutionary fitness to pass along one's genes to a following generation.

Are there any examples reported in the scientific literature of insect-to-insect transmission of behavioral traits? I have little doubt that the careful observers you cite have made observations that may well allow new knowledge to be gained about the 'hive mind' and what it is capable of, but we may be on the cusp of being able to determine these things.

Could the Purdue University 'ankle biting' trait for coping with varroa be transmitted from bee-to-bee this way? Is there an optimal age (for the learning bee) to gain such knowledge? How fast can such a learned behavior be transmitted within a colony that is learning the new behavior?

On a separate note, the foraging population of most hives are the oldest worker bees, and I am uncertain what interactions they may have with the nurse bees, which are the youngest worker bees and the ones most intimately involved with the care of the larvae and pupae. Are the treatment-resistant drifting foragers able to improve the ability of the nurse bees to exhibit VSH behavior?? How extensively have the interactions of different age cohorts of bees within a colony been studied, and have the observers of these interactions designed experiments to test for the transmission of 'learned beehavior'?

Fascinating stuff, no?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> Are there any examples reported in the scientific literature of insect-to-insect transmission of behavioral traits?


Not that I know of, Knisely.
It`s mostly speculation, I fear, but we must be open to new thoughts.
I believe there is much interaction between foragers and nurse bees. But how they learn I don`t know.
i will be an apprentice to the person I told about and will inform you after knowing more.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Bees "learning" to resist mites. This sounds like "magical" thinking and not science.

An original source of a similar anecdote comes from a pdf on Elgon bees sent to Hans-Otto Johnson in 2006 and 2007.
http://www.elgon.se/story-2008/Varroa_attacks.pdf

Here Osterlund describes Johnson have good survival in 2006, but the year following losing most of the bees. 
"His bees taught the newcomers some skill in dealing with the mites. The 2007 batch brought with them a substantial mite population which increased faster than the bees could learn to handle......"

So we have a persistent claim of bees "teaching" mite resistance, however the 2007 experience (recounted by the proponents) casts doubt on the claim.

I think the simple explanation is delusion and wishful thinking, and not "epigentics".

One cannot advance science by constantly coddling fantasy.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I hear of local adaption... but in the context of the Varroa mite, what does this mean? Even in the context of DWV, what does this mean.... We hear of two strains, A and B for DWV, how does local adaption affect these two pressures in the bees favor in some areas, but not others when the selection pressure should be fairly similar or pretty much exactly the same. Are we seeing hyper and hypo virulence from different haplotypes perhaps in these pressures that hasn't been studied yet perhaps? Perhaps it's even simpler.... large areas where bees are concentrated seem the most highly effected because endemic pressure is higher in these areas, therefore, selection criteria is much more stringent.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Well,JW, if you read the whole article you would perhaps realize, that the varroa was found 2007 for the first time in those hives.

>Fortunately we and our bees can only experience this first attack once (if we don’t move to or import bees from Australia).
In 2007 mites were officially found in my hives. Which means they arrived a couple of years earlier.>

Adaptation needs it`s time and the bees which are adapted are maybe the teachers.

"Magical" thinking is what we need and I will listen to everyone with new ideas. :applause:
Are you perhaps a little afraid of enthusiasm? Maybe you should get in contact with Erik. He is a most exciting person and a good beekeeper.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Bee teachers teaching the younger bees? 
Ok that put me in the weird zone. 

Has anyone considered that honey bees are superior at social behavior than humans? Is it possible that honey bees are actually scientists from another galaxy sent here to study us? 
Hehe


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

aunt betty said:


> Bee teachers teaching the younger bees?
> Ok that put me in the weird zone.
> 
> Has anyone considered that honey bees are superior at social behavior than humans? Is it possible that honey bees are actually scientists from another galaxy sent here to study us?
> Hehe


Yes, they are. wonderful idea! :thumbsup:


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Bees teaching other bees...

I have had a swimming pool for a few years now. When bees get in the pool, I dip them out so they don't drown. After three or so days of doing this, the bees stop getting in the pool. If I make changes to hives such as making splits or something where more hives are added, then I start getting bees in the pool again. So, I dip them out, and after three days, maybe four, they stop using the pool again. I told my neighbour who has a pool about it, and she noticed the same thing when she started dipping out the bees. She moved away, and the new neighbour started dipping out the bees without me telling him. He made a comment just last week that he dips out the bees and a few days later they quit coming to the pool at all.

This is not varroa mite grooming behaviour related, but shows me that bees do communicate and learn from each other, at least about the dangers of drinking from swimming pools. In this instance, I do not think bees are teaching bees in other hives, but is a teaching/learning process within a hive itself.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

A link:
http://www.neurobiologie.fu-berlin.de/Menzel.html


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Due to their short life it would seem unlikely that bees have learned behavior, but I would say it's not that far fetched. Birds do it. Bees have a much more integrated society than most birds.

http://scienceblogs.com/laelaps/2007/12/04/the-milk-mystery-and-imitation/


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

aunt betty said:


> Bee teachers teaching the younger bees?
> Ok that put me in the weird zone.
> 
> Has anyone considered that honey bees are superior at social behavior than humans? Is it possible that honey bees are actually scientists from another galaxy sent here to study us?
> Hehe


You must be drinking a lot of Illinois Champaign...opcorn:


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Bees teaching other bees? I'm a big believer with my observations, including several different scenarios. Also see bees quickly changing behavior with new queen of different genetic line before new brood crop emerges. Will post more details asap. 
Away from computer.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I believe Daniel Weaver started his selection process for varroa resistance with 1000 hives. Worked for him, barely. 

I don't see off hand why this principle can't be applied to less fecund longer lived critters. We know from ecological studies on islands, that extinction rates go up, the smaller the island is and the less connected it is from other islands. Its probably true, that the possibility of adaptation goes up with a large area of occupation and the genetic diversity that goes with it. I guess for some critters this just isn't possible as they have been squeezed into small areas.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

lharder said:


> I don't see off hand why this principle can't be applied to less fecund longer lived critters. We know from ecological studies on islands, that extinction rates go up, the smaller the island is and the less connected it is from other islands. Its probably true, that the possibility of adaptation goes up with a large area of occupation and the genetic diversity that goes with it.


This post shows a profound misunderstanding of the process of allopatric speciation.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

JWChesnut said:


> This post shows a profound misunderstanding of the process of allopatric speciation.


And I thought you didn't believe in evolution

But if you have an argument, you should present it rather than insult people.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

RayMarler said:


> This is not varroa mite grooming behaviour related, but shows me that bees do communicate and learn from each other, at least about the dangers of drinking from swimming pools. In this instance, I do not think bees are teaching bees in other hives, but is a teaching/learning process within a hive itself.


After near drowning, their waggle lost its wiggle. Langstroth said that bees have an instinct akin to reason. I've not seen it better stated.

Lharder, what you're referring to may be due to founders effect (which I suppose could be thought of as a species of allopatric variation, but clearly not a variety of allopatric speciation). Perhaps illustrated by what happened to the British Black Bee in the face of Acarapis woodii.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I forget who did the work, but it wasn't really about speciation events. More looking at local extinction and recolonization and the effect on biodiversity. Looked at island size and distance to other islands. Easy to imagine as a result that small islands far from other islands have low biodiversity and genetic diversity due to low immigration and greater vulnerability to catastrophic and environmental variation. 

Take this situation and stress it with a directional stress and see what happens. 

Its just an illustration of how small isolated populations have difficulties of adaptation because numbers aren't on their side, genetic diversity is low, and genetic flow from other populations is low. Chances are large, slow reproducing critters fall on this side of the ledger, but a large enough population inhabiting a large geographic area can still fall in this mass selection kind of idea.


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

Epigenetics is a component of every trait, the question is how large. Most behavioral scientists now think that genetics contribute much more than 50% to how animals (including us) behave.


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