# Foundationless Lang's



## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

I am getting 3 foundationless langs started this spring also. I went with all 8 frame medium boxes for uniformity. I cut 1'' material, really 3/4" nominal, 16 1/2" long, and 1/8'' wide, and waxed them into the grooved top bar by melting the wax, pouring it into the grove and placing the strip into the molten wax. Seems like your idea except with a wood strip. Sounds like your idea would work though. Good luck!!!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have made sheets of plain beeswax and cut them into starter strips. They work fine until a hot day causes them to fall out... but wood works just as well, is easier to find and lasts almost forever...


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## Milan-Slovakia (Sep 30, 2009)

http://users.tvcablenet.be/personal/tvcn21861/warre/00007.jpg
http://users.tvcablenet.be/personal/tvcn21861/warre/00008.jpg
http://users.tvcablenet.be/personal/tvcn21861/warre/00009.jpg
http://users.tvcablenet.be/personal/tvcn21861/warre/00010.jpg
http://www.backyardhive.com/images/stories/newlangframe_2.jpg


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> I have made sheets of plain beeswax and cut them into starter strips. They work fine until a hot day causes them to fall out... but wood works just as well, is easier to find and lasts almost forever...


I'm assuming that you had trouble with the wax starter strips falling out prior to the bees drawing them out at least partially and attaching the comb to the top bar. I've used wood triangular starter strips on my top bar hives with pretty good success, however the bees sometimes drifted or angled their comb building from one bar over to the bar next door, which makes it tons of fun to remove those top bars for inspection. One thing I learned in my first year of TBH's last year was to keep on top of their comb building progress until they get all the bars drawn out. That may mean going into the hive every couple days to make darn sure they are going straight, and correct them if they're not. Feeding in empty bars between two perfect combs will usually do the trick.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'm assuming that you had trouble with the wax starter strips falling out prior to the bees drawing them out at least partially and attaching the comb to the top bar.

Yes.

> I've used wood triangular starter strips on my top bar hives with pretty good success, however the bees sometimes drifted or angled their comb building from one bar over to the bar next door, which makes it tons of fun to remove those top bars for inspection.

Sometimes, but they follow the triangular ones as well as anything.

> One thing I learned in my first year of TBH's last year was to keep on top of their comb building progress until they get all the bars drawn out. 

Always a good plan if you have the time.

>That may mean going into the hive every couple days to make darn sure they are going straight, and correct them if they're not.

For the first few combs, this is most important. After that it gets less so, but is still worth doing if you have the time.

> Feeding in empty bars between two perfect combs will usually do the trick.

Between two perfect brood combs, yes.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks Michael, I forgot to make it clear that empty bars should go between two straight drawn out "brood" combs. By the way, did I read somewhere that you shave off 1/16" off the sides of your side bars and run 11 frames in your Lang's to mimmick the natural brood comb spacing? Does that seem to help with getting natural comb drawn straighter? Thanks


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Does that seem to help with getting natural comb drawn straighter? 

Yes. And with getting smaller cells. At 1 3/8" the bees seem to think it's honey storage. At 1 1/4" they know it's brood.  Also they can keep the brood warmer (less space to heat).

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm


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## Ardilla (Jul 17, 2006)

I've had the wax strips pull out also. Sometime the bees build a lot of comb on the strip before they build a strong attachement to the tob bar.

I like wood guides. However, next time I assemble frames I am going to bevel the edges of the top bar a bit. Last year I hived a swarm that insisted on building comb on the outside edges of the top bars even though I gave them fully drawn frames as guides.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

I've found with wood guides that are deep ( 1/2" or more ) the bees tend to build their combs one side or the other of the wood guide ending up with a comb that is set on the diagonal which is workable but can progressively worsen through each bar. I think a shallower guide (3/16th”) would work a little better. The straightest and most consistent centered combs were when I use 1/2" foundation starter strips.


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## kathygibson (Nov 3, 2009)

..nice setup


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