# Moving nucs home



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Not to be pessimistic, but if you want bees in a different size frame/comb or cell size than they come in, you are better off with a package as the comb is not going be usable really. You can build a top bar hive with straight sides that is the right size for the Langstroth frames to fit it. You can build frames for the top bar hive to do a cutout and cut the combs and tie them into frames, but this kind of defeats the purpose of having a top bar hive. You can start a Langstroth hive and if it does well, do a shaken swarm mid season and put those in the top bar hive...


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## n1rcv (Dec 8, 2010)

Go over to "Build it yourself" on this site and look up "Dadant Type Frames" that is what they will be supplying and are suggesting that you bring a couple of.

If you are going to shortly be re-hiving the bees. A good substitute would be a couple pieces of wood 19" long, 1 3/8" wide, and 7/16" thick. Use the wood to fill the two gaps in the single.

Have a good day.

William


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

William -- Thank you for the measurements. That is exactly the nuts 'n bolts info I was looking for, and I really appreciate your help!

Michael -- Thank you too for your thoughts, even if they were a bit of a damper to my somewhat nervous enthusiasm. While I think I understand the points you were making, I had planned to take a different tack based on other advice. 

I intend to transfer the lang nucs to my TBH by clipping off the bottom and sides of the frame, removing the lower corners of the comb as needed to fit the TBH, and hanging the frame in the TBH, just like a "real" top bar.

I realize this presents a management issue that would be avoided by using package bees, in that the lang frames need to be phased out of the hive, so the bees build their own comb from scratch. 

Even so, I felt the advantage of starting with a more established colony was a plus for me. I realize this is not the way you would do things ... and might not be mine when I get more experience. 

I will just have to see how things go this year, learn from the experience, and accept your "I told you so!" with good humor if things turn out poorly.

Regards, --DeeAnna


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

DeeAnna
I see what your saying 
I will add to the mix just a Bit 
when you start to cut the frames and find
The foundation is Plastic
(what you gunna Do?)
when you start to cut the frames 
#2 The comb is wired to the wood 
(what you gunna Do?)
#3 when you put the entire hive under stress 
By cutting & moving to the KTBH they abscond 
(what you gunna Do?)

I truly don't want this to sound argumentative as I am 1 yr.new 
I have read many times Bees absconding from a KTBH that they
can be finicky to start from a Lang
There is a member here who teaches at a Local University 
maybe he will chime in? 
He has been a keeper almost as long as MBush, he went through some 
fair amount of Bees in the KTBH and finally the bees took.
They where leaving Like a Fire House Call
This Guy IMHO is a Excellent Keeper/Educator
I hope you find what ever way you go, too work 
I know bees don't come Cheap 
I wish you all the best 

Tommyt


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

Well, Tommyt, I don't read you as argumentative exactly, but your "what you gunna Do?" is certainly intended to be a challenge. I was hoping for a bit less of a gauntlet to run in response to my first post, but cest la vie.

I know transferring the frames to the TBH will be a learning experience, but I have more tools than many men do so I think I can figure out how to handle the practical problems. I am reasonably sure a sharp knife or a good shears will cut plastic foundation, and a pair of side cutters will handle the wires. My big pruning loppers will make short work of the frames themselves, a challenge you didn't mention.

I am aware that when the bees are stressed by putting them into a new hive, the bees can abscond. That's true whether they are from a swarm, nuc, or package. So, sure, there's a risk of absconding, but it's a risk that every beekeeper must accept.

I am also aware that education and mentoring is important. I am reading this and other beekeeping forums and websites, I have been studying several beekeeping books that are well recommended, I am taking a beekeeping class at the University of Minnesota in March, I have become a member of the Iowa Beekeepers Association, I am contacting local beekeepers for mentoring, and I am asking newbie questions when necessary. 

Have I said enough? <sigh> --DeeAnna


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Would not do it per what TommyT said. You could kill the queen in the process. Also, think about all the stores and brood you will be loosing. I am starting a guy here locally. I told him to get to know the bees first and then experiment. TBHs are really not the best thing to start out with and learn. You will be frustrated with them trying to do this. Assuming this is a commercial beekeeper that you are getting these from, it could very well be plasic foundation. Hacksawing frames is a great way to get very very stung up. It took me about 5 minutes to get a hole 6x6 sawed in a sheet of plastic foundation today. 
Are these bee treatment free? Just because the are MN H. does not mean you can go treatment free. I have seen guys using Tactic and other illegal chemicals with that breed. 

My .02 

mike


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## bsquad (Jan 18, 2011)

DeeAnna, 

(I'm a first-year read-all-you-can type without bees so take this with a grain of salt) 

I know the dimensions of the 'top bar' on a Langstroth frame is narrower than the ones on 'regular' top bar hives (1 1/8" for Lang vs 1 1/4 or larger for TBH) so i wonder if it would make sense to get 8 of your top bars, then rout out a 1 1/8" slot in them so that the Langstroth frame tops would fit in, and the top of your TBH would seal up tightly. Seems like a bunch of work, but maybe worth it if it simplifies the 'moving in' process.

Best,
bsquad


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Why not just put a temprorary top on the top bar with a proper sized hole cut in it (The size of a hive body or nuc body. Remove the top bars underneath the hole, set the nuc or hive body with the frames in it on the opening. Then let the bees "build into" the top bar. Later in the season when the queen in in the top bar hive, add a qheen excluder under the hive body/nuc and after all brood is gone from the hive body/nuc, remove it. 

I realize that initially they will build the nuc frames deep, but then they will naturally spread to the top bars.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

bsquad: Sounds like that would work, especially if I wanted to keep the lang "frames" in the hive for an extended period. A more temporary alternative is to just cover that area with the lang frames with a starched cloth cover to exclude the bees from above the bars -- something like the burlap cover on a Warre hive. Speaking as someone with only book larnin', of course.

jbeshearse: Kind of like a super, if I'm following you correctly? I will look into that -- thanks for the suggestion.

mike: I have been lurking on several beekeeping forums since this past summer, and I know your concerns about TBHs are voiced by many experienced beekeepers ... but I also know there are others, just as experienced, who feel differently. The one common point of agreement between both camps is to not start out with TBHs AND langs right off the bat.

I am definitely not qualified to debate the TBH vs. lang issue. What I am qualified to know, however, is the management of TBHs is more appealing to me. I also know that I would rather work with with one type of hive long enough to build my skills and knowledge and get a good handle on how the hive works. Based on those two facts about me as a person, I have chosen to start out with TBHs. I do understand it will be tougher to get help with the TBHs than with langs, but I am prepared to accept that. 

I have no idea whether the nuc is treatment free, but I doubt any of the package bees available to me are treatment free either. I'm in no position as a rank beginner to start quizzing the beekeepers in my local area about their chemical treatment programs, legal or not. I gotta start somewhere, or not bother to start at all.

I am here to learn, and I will certainly keep an open mind about your and everyone else's advice. I may not be making choices that will all work out well in the long run, but that just means I will need to learn well so I don't repeat my mistakes.

I appreciate your willingness to share your insights from your years of experience.

--DeeAnna


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Hey there DeeAnna,

While, as Michael Bush suggests, a package may be easier, I have found that nucs are more popular in some areas. I don't think I can get packages at all here in Nova Scotia. I also liked the idea of having established comb and brood to help settle the bees in the new hive and keep them there.

I did not go the route of retaining the top bar from the lang when I got my nucs, as is done in the "chop and crop" method described by Phil Chandler. The Lang frame top bars weren't the right dimensions for my ktbh, and I felt they would just be a pain to remove later.

I got 4 frame, deep nucs and transferred them to ktbh's in about 15 minutes per hive. But I was prepared ahead of time with modified bars to accommodate cut comb.

I got prepared creating a number of modified top bars with built in wire "clamps" for holding cut comb to a bar.

I made these modified bars by taking several bars and drilling three or four pairs of 1/8" holes in each from above - one hole on each side of the comb guide for each pair. Each pair of holes accommodates one wire "clamp", and I would make one bar with three, and one bar with four of these clamps for each lang frame. (So if you had a five frame nuc, you'd prepare ten bars; five with three clamps, and five with four clamps.

To make a clamp, I cut 8"-10" lengths of wire - with a gadge light enough to fit through the pairs of holes. Each length is bent into a tight "U" or horseshoe shape and pushed down from the top of the top bar - so that the ends of the "U" pass through the pair of holes, and appear on the bottom of the bar - on either side of the comb guide.

Pull down as deeply as you can, so that the "U" is in as far as it will go. Do this for each pair of holes. In the end you have bars with three or four evenly spaced "U"s punched through the top bar, with pairs of wires protruding below on each side of the comb guides.

Then I crimp the very end of each wire; like the last half inch or so, creating a 90 degree bend - so that there is a little "claw" for grabbing the comb. I then splay the ends wide apart, and set each bar aside, ready for the big day.

When the big day comes, you try to do it on a warm day. Then you have the tbh in place, opened up with all the bars out, except a few bars near the entrance to create a sheltered, darker area where you want the bees to cluster as you shake them in. (This is important, as the queen may start to run around looking to hide, and the bees can get all over the place.) So get all the bars out and let the sun shine in, but position the hive so that the area you want the brood nest in is in shadow).

Go one frame at a time, hold it over the tbh box near where you want the brood nest and shake the bees into the hive there and brush remaining bees. You have to move quickly, as the brood will chill - so have everything laid out and ready.

Then, using a utility knife with a long blade, I cut around the edge of each frame, releasing the comb from the lang frame. I then lay that comb on a work surface (for me it was a piece of plywood on a rock) where I carefully use my follower board as a guide for cutting the angles so the comb will fit in the ktbh. Using a "three-clamp" modified bar, I hold that comb against the comb guide of the top bar, between the splayed wire ends. I then squeeze the pairs of wire ends together; their angled tips biting into the comb. This way, the comb is held to the bar. The process of cutting and attaching should only take a few minutes to complete, as it is important to get it back into the hive and covered with bees asap.

I do the same with each of the remaining combs in the nuc, and finish by using up my "four clamp" modified bars by attaching the smaller triangular "cut-offs" as well; in an attempt to use accommodate absolutely every bit of brood from the nuc. These cut-offs are better handled by top bars which have been modified with four of the wire "U's" as these can hold two smaller pieces each quite easily. As each bar is connected to comb, and that comb is then inserted into the tbh box, covering the pile of shaken bees. The bees quickly move to cover it.

From here, you can choose to put the follower in after them, creating a reduced area for them to work in, or just put in all the frames and let them go. I would likely do the latter next time.Then put in all the remaining empty bars, put on the cover and shift the hive into its final position if it isn't there already - it will soon be too heavy to move easily. (Note that I would not put in any modified bars with wire in them unless I needed them to crimp onto comb - the wire would just get in the way).

Once they get going, you can sneak an empty bar here and there between completed comb and they will rapidly fill it in. Keep in mind that you will be expanding the brood nest this way and that will strain the bees. They have to fill in the space with "festooning" or hanging groups of bees in order to create new comb and maintain temperature, so they have to have enough bees to do that, as well as take care of the brood. A strong colony will make a new complete comb every few days at least, and once you have a nest of around 8-10 combs, I would not mess with them any more in terms of moving bars or anything.

After that, they expand the brood nest as they like, and eventually the bees will backfill with honey and contain the queen in an area near the entrance. (I use an end entrance, so the first third or so is the nest in my hives).

Does any of that make sense?

••••••


Now in response to the warnings of others, I would offer this:

The nucs I transferred from were all on heavy plastic foundation. It was totally a surprise to me at the time, and I just cut them apart as I planned - even though it was harder than I planned. Just make sure you've got a good, sturdy utility knife and plenty of blades, and prepare yourself for the fact that it is tough - and some comb and brood will be destroyed in the process. You could also have some nice, heavy shears or tin snips on hand, and a pair of little clippers for wires if they are there. With that knowledge, you'll have an easier time than I did.

As to the idea of absconding - If you put in all of that brood with them, they are no more likely to abscond from top bar hive than a lang. To think otherwise doesn't make any sense. They're no more attached to a Lang than they are any other man-made wooden void, as long as you haven't used some nasty chemical sealant or adhesive that they don't like the smell of, they're just as likely to stay in your box, as any other.

Lastly, Kingfisher's point about it being tough for a beginner is a good one. This is pretty hard-core manipulation right out of the gate. You're going to be getting dirty and really stirring things up from moment one.

That said, it does teach you an awful lot in a hurry. As long as you prepare yourself for the swim, there's no reason you can't dive into the deep end. The steep learning curve and the relative lack of support and information is very much part of keeping bees in top bar hives. It's really not a direction to go blindly.

Just make sure your eyes open, and you've done your homework - and I believe that's just what you've been doing.

I think you'll be just fine.

Adam


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

Hi, Adam -- I expect beekeeping to be a challenge and a learning experience -- I wouldn't try it otherwise. It's sure nice to know someone has walked the same path before me. Lots of food for thought in your post. Many thanks. --DeeAnna


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## mackelby (Dec 5, 2010)

I will also be a first timer with a top bar. But I can fail 4 or 5 times for the price of a lang setup and a package of bees.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

DeeAnna said:


> Well, Tommyt, I don't read you as argumentative exactly, but your "what you gunna Do?" is certainly intended to be a challenge.I said that just to bring it too your attention as it would be a Possibility I was hoping for a bit less of a gauntlet to run in response to my first post, but cest la vie.
> I'm sorry If it felt sour It wasn't meant too
> I know transferring the *frames to the TBH *will be a learning experience, but I have more tools than many men do so I think I can figure out how to handle the practical problems. I am reasonably sure a sharp knife or a good shears will cut plastic foundation, and a pair of side cutters will handle the wires. My big pruning loppers will make short work of the frames themselves, a challenge you didn't mention. I don't doubt you nor any women as a Keeper or builder you may very well be better than many men are, you say TBH is it that? or KTBH? I was thinking KTBH I am aware that when the bees are stressed by putting them into a new hive, the bees can abscond. That's true whether they are from a swarm, nuc, or package. So, sure, there's a risk of absconding, but it's a risk that every beekeeper must accept. I just believe it will be much higher and was pointing out a few of the problems you may encounter?
> Have I said enough? <sigh> --DeeAnna


Some where a post is stating dismiss me ,and how you can do this and that seemed like a lot of work to attach. May I suggest If you want to attach just comb to the new top bar you can tack a piece of Chicken wire
to the bar lay the comb on it fold over the chick wire and staple it. 
If the bees attach the comb to bar before the wire cut the chicken wire out. 
I would only do the chicken wire attachment on Brood comb 
I've seen it done on cut outs work good. 

Tommyt


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## SteveBee (Jul 15, 2010)

I started beekeeping last summer with a TBH with zero experience. I took my hive to a guy that shook bees from Lang frames in, took a queen from another hive and threw her in, packed it up and drove it home. This was a couple of months later in the season than I should've started. I went to the forums, took what advice I considered sound, and they're doing fine so far. Go for it!

Adam mentions his wire clamps for securing the cut combs to your top bar. I had a comb that broke and wanted to use it. I took a couple of those plastic, spring-loaded women's hair clips, drilled some little holes thru the bars, and wired the clamp loosely to the bar. The clip has long fingers that I worked into the comb in two places, and then pulled the wires tight and twisted them on top of the bar. The bees attached the comb within a couple of days. You can get your hair clips back when you harvest the comb!


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

The one thing I've learned from reading this forum is YMMV (your mileage may vary). Meaning what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. I have also learned that beekeepers are usually tinkerers -- if something ain't broke, then fix it anyway ... or try something new, just because.  I've gotten sound advice, reasonable warnings and cautions, and creative ideas from this thread. I learned more than I expected to -- always good. Thanks, guys. I will post about my experience, good or bad, when I get there. --DeeAnna


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

SteveBee said:


> ...I took a couple of those plastic, spring-loaded women's hair clips, drilled some little holes thru the bars, and wired the clamp loosely to the bar. The clip has long fingers that I worked into the comb in two places, and then pulled the wires tight and twisted them on top of the bar. The bees attached the comb within a couple of days. You can get your hair clips back when you harvest the comb!


I've seen the hair clip method, and it just seemed like a big object to put in there. It also holds the comb quite a way from the bar. I know the bees build around it, but I wanted to get the cut comb right against the bar. Using the wire, it becomes hard to tell there was anything there at all in a few days. It's just more minimal. 

Whatever works for you.


Adam


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Has anybody else read about just putting the nuc on top of the hive? I seem to remember reading somewhere about spacing the top bars a bit to let bees through, placing plywood with a hole in it over the top bars, close the exits to the nuc, and then putting the nuc on top of that. The bees are forced down into the hive and after the brood has hatched you removed the nuc. 

Thoughts?


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## LenInNorCal (Feb 28, 2009)

Bush_84 said:


> Has anybody else read about just putting the nuc on top of the hive? I seem to remember reading somewhere about spacing the top bars a bit to let bees through, placing plywood with a hole in it over the top bars, close the exits to the nuc, and then putting the nuc on top of that. The bees are forced down into the hive and after the brood has hatched you removed the nuc.
> Thoughts?



Many folks wish to be to clever by half.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Bush_84 said:


> Has anybody else read about just putting the nuc on top of the hive? I seem to remember reading somewhere about spacing the top bars a bit to let bees through, placing plywood with a hole in it over the top bars, close the exits to the nuc, and then putting the nuc on top of that. The bees are forced down into the hive and after the brood has hatched you removed the nuc.
> 
> Thoughts?


I'm sure this thought occurs to many people trying to move a Lang nuc to a top bar hive. It did to me too.

The problem is that, while the bees may be forced to go down through the top bar hive to get in and out, there is nothing to force them to stop using the nuc. So while they may indeed build comb in the tbh, the nest will likely stay where it is.

Your best hope is that they move the nest down and closer to the door over the course of the season and backfill the nuc with honey as the move down, closer to the entrance. Then you could remove the nuc in the fall.

However, my worries are:

a) What kind of top do you have to construct to keep weather out all season?

And 

b) What kind of weird comb and propolis mess do they build up in that "space between the bars" that you need to have at the top?

In the end (at least for me) it became clear that the easiest thing to do was cut them out and transfer them. And in my experience, the solution cost about a dollar in wire, and probably a half hour of time per hive if you include the prep time. From there, they built perfect straight comb.

Adam


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Ya I guess that makes sense. Is the chop and crop something that can be done by one individual? I assume that two would make it quite a bit easier, but it seems still doable with one. Maybe it's feasible to do a hybrid of the two. Put the nuc over the top and leave it for a week. Go back and chop and crop half of the brood nest. Then come back in a week and do the rest?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The only way a queen moves out of the current brood nest (in this case "nuc") is if she totally runs out of room. And then she will hesitate and may not move out. The bees' instinct to keep the brood nest in tact is pretty strong, and moving down requires them to break it up. It's a lot more of a sure thing to do a cutout of some kind, but what a mess!


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Ya that's for sure. Buying a nuc seems to be the best option for me. My local club has "discount" prices on 2lb packages. $70 for a 2lb package, but this _local_ guy sells nucs for the same price. He uses carnies. So I understand that it's a pain to transfer, but if I can do it then it'd have been worth it. If all goes well then I just plan on making increases from my own stock. But ya local carnies sound like a good idea.


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## tommyt (Aug 7, 2010)

DeeAnna
After fully reading Adam Foster Collins way he went about it. 
I wonder if a pair of these would be the answer/ then what ever is in 
the middle of the combs you'll be able to quickly cut through with less 
comb loss
All the best 

Tommyt
http://www.gp.lib.mi.us/information/about/Cutter90.jpg.JPG


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>Even so, I felt the advantage of starting with a more established colony was a plus for me. I realize this is not the way you would do things ... and might not be mine when I get more experience.

This is one of the most misguided plans by a newbee I have read here. As Michael said, "What a mess". This will not be a more established colony after you have chopped it up as described. Good chance of killing the queen unless you find and cage her first. You have clearly set your mind to your way of doing things based on the poor original advice you got, and refuse to listen to Michael's sage advice based on his 40 years experience keeping bees. 
Why am I wasting my time giving my advice from my 40 years of experience? Cancel you nuc order and buy a package. The whole idea of a topbar hive is to KISS - KEEP IT SIMPLE.


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## Merlinspop (Nov 4, 2010)

DeeAnna-
The thing about asking for advice when one already has a plan in mind is that often the advice is that the plan is bad. Take what you receive and chew it over, then forge ahead as originally planned or modified. Either way, try to enjoy the journey, or it's not really worth taking. 

I'm starting out with a package. My hive is modified from Michael Bush's plan. He's been very helpful and generous with advice on my ideas that stray from his plans. I've followed some of it, and decided against some. We'll see how it turns out. 

Whatever you choose to do, please post updates. However it turns out, it'll be interesting to read. 

Bruce


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

tommyt: Good idea about the tin snips. Thanks for passing it on.

Bruce: "... often the advice is that the plan is bad ..." Yup. That is very true. Thanks for the encouragement.

To all: The discussion has drifted far from my original question, but I have followed the discussion with an open mind and a desire to learn. To those who have offered factual, courteous advice and suggestions -- thank you.

--DeeAnna


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

DeeAnna

http://vimeo.com/5614348

Not sure if you have seen the video, but that might be of some help. They make it look so incredibly easy.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

DeeAnna said:


> tommyt:
> To all: The discussion has drifted far from my original question, but I have followed the discussion with an open mind and a desire to learn. To those who have offered factual, courteous advice and suggestions -- thank you.
> 
> --DeeAnna


If I understand your original question, I would say that you don't have to worry about "filling in the extra space". You get all of your cut combs attached to bars as quickly and securely as you can and get them into the hive over the shaken bees. Then you squeeze the bars together (toward the entrance end if you have an end entrance) and then put in the rest of the empty bars after them. 

Some people elect to put a follower board in after a couple of empty bars in order to restrict them to a smaller area until they get established, others give them run of the whole hive and let them do their thing.

First time round, I put in a follower, but I wouldn't do it again. They filled that space up so fast, that I couldn't believe it and I had to disrupt them again and take it out. 

Would've been better to just give them the whole hive to work in.

Adam


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>They make it look so incredibly easy. 

Yes they do make it look easy. And it's not. Especially for a newbee. That person had done it many times. Cutting out one or two bad combs and tying them in a frame is intimidating, but doable for a newbee. Doing a "chop and crop) on the whole nuc is more than five times as intimidating and much messier. As ODFrank said, you might kill the queen, you will drown some bees and you will lose any advantage a nuc had in the process. If a nuc is all I could get, I would build the top bar hive to accommodate that size combs and put them in without any modification, or just put them in a Langstroth box. If you want bees on a frame size or cell size that is not what is available in the nuc, I would buy a package. You're just creating problems you don't need to deal with.


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## Lauren (Jun 10, 2010)

Hey DeeAnna, i went through this same struggle last year. I tried my best to get my nuc to move into the TBH. They did not, but they did come up with very creative uses for that space.... and I did learn a whole lot. 

I finally began to feel like I was borderline abusing these poor girls...and moved them into a lang. I am planning on saving my Top bar for either a swarm or a package.... 

If I were you I would either just commit to cutting the nuc frames right off the bat (can you enlist help?), or switch your order to packages. 

I am glad that I know how to work a lang now, but am still very excited about the tbh. Good luck and have fun! and don't forget bees are amazingly resilient. I have made countless stupid errors this year with my first hive and they are still going strong! 

PM me and i can send you some pictures of my lame efforts for you to laugh at


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## Bush_84 (Jan 9, 2011)

Ya this discussion has been convincing me enough to avoid the nuc idea. I really like the idea of local bees and carnies which i hear overwinter better. Maybe I can talk to the guy about maybe selling me a package? 

Otherwise anybody have any suggestions for a reliable place that ships packages of carnies? I looked at the list and all of the sellers in Minnesota won't work.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's very possible to find a local beekeeper who would do a shaken swarm for you about swarm season time, which will be a little later than a package but would be local bees.


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