# Swarm Control Split - Need Advice Tonight Please



## nediver (May 26, 2013)

So I am running behind as usual. Zone 6A. Cherry, Maple, and Dandelion just came on with Apple around the corner. 

I have a hive that was a swarm capture last year. It was my planned breeder this year. 

In early March it was booming and I reversed it way sooner than normal. In early April i Demaree it. Last week I opened the brood nest and pulled 4 frames brood and shakes bees for cell starter. 

Today I came home from a trip and decided to check the bees bc I am prepping to move some to yards Sunday. 

I found swarm cells mostly uncapped with a few capped and one really gorgeous huge capped cell. 

These are the steps I took -

1) Put a frame of brood with swarm cells into queenless Nuc from last week. 

2) Split a medium of bees/brood/drones and put a caged Carniolan from Strachan in there. 

3) Took old queen with a few brood frames, 4 shakes bees and foundation into 8 frame box. 

I plan to move bees Sunday. I have some time early AM to move bees if necessary.

Thoughts and if move which boxes?


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

What is the purpose of the move to the yards, & how tedious will it make tending/checking the bees?

The split with the carny queen should be good to go, but may need brood box expansion/ supering soon.
( I am attempting to be all medium, some times I assume every one is ... )

The old queen, same as the carny split , but she may be superceded "any day", or not.

Will it be difficult to check the bees at the yard? If so, I would keep the box with the capped queen cell at home until I knew she was mated & laying.

I would run some kind of robbing screen on these reduced hives, especially the Carniolian.

As you consider my comments, consider my experience , I might be a doofus ! 

Good Luck .... CE


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## nediver (May 26, 2013)

I was thinking of taking old queen to simulate swarm and I need to move hives out anyhow. I'm limited in my home yard.


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## nediver (May 26, 2013)

Bump


Help😀


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Help with what, everything you do will be fine.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

You have already made up hives 1-3, correct?
if so, I wouldn't move 2.
I might move 1 if I could do it easily (depends on cell, good road, close, limit bouncing it around).
I would move 3.


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## nediver (May 26, 2013)

Clyde -

Have the following all done last night-

Parent with Cells. Not planning to move. Should I crush all but the best? One was already capped and gorgeous. Another capped short. Rest we're about to be capped. 

Caged Carniolan Queen with box from parent. Haven't checked on drift of workers yet. No cells

Second year breeder queen from parent in box with lots of bees, 2 frames brood and foundation. 

Nuc made from parent one week ago. Introduced frame of queen larvae about to be capped. Wasn't planning to move them until mated.


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## nediver (May 26, 2013)

While we are at it. I went into my other big production colony this AM and found queen cells starting. Some on bottom some on frame. 

I took a frame of brood, frame pollen/nectar and original 2 year queen into a NuC and several shakes of bees. 

Not sure if they were supercedure or swarm, I suspect could go either way. The nest was very open and I checkerboarded the honey super.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I would destroy all but 2 or 3 of the best qcells in the parent hive from your original post. Leave 3 if they are in close proximity to each other, 2 if not. The closer the more likely the first queen out will destroy the others and cancel any after swarms.

Good you pulled the queen from the other hive regardless of reason for qcells. In a week they will be capped and you can destroy all
but 2 or 3 again. Pulling the queens from hives gives you some queens to use if the mating flights go wrong. Good insurance.
I have a lot of nectar from the trees in my hives right now, are you sure the brood nest is open and not back filled with thin spring
nectar?

You'll have a supply of capped brood frames to use from those new hives to build the production hives back up in a couple of weeks if needed to catch the flow. Not a bad time to set those big hives back a bit whether it was intentional management or a reaction to the conditions.

I made 25 new starts last week and was glad I did given the strength of the hives. May have to set them back again before the flow
really kick in.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

nediver said:


> I was thinking of taking old queen to simulate swarm and I need to move hives out anyhow. I'm limited in my home yard.


Yup, like dan says.

You have already removed the old queen, & you have made splits. the splits will "probably " be fine.
It seems a shame to destroy big healthy looking queen cells, but if you dont have resources to put them in mating nucs, it is either that, or sell/give them away ( craigslist), or watch your hive swarm away.

If you are limited by home owner association rulles, city ordinance or such you may fudge this just a bit ... most people percieve a hive as a stack of boxes with bees in them. Since most of your splits are single boxes, you can stack them to make "vertical splits", (seperated by top covers & bottom boards ) for a time. Technically you would be in violation, but most people would percive it to be a stack of boxes with bees in them.
Drawbacks are the labor involved in unstacking them to work them, and drift ( the bees tend to drift down to the lower hives, and tend to drift into the hives with the stronger queen smell) 
Returning , newly mated, queens some times get confused & enter the wrong hive.
But, you do what you gotta do. Good Luck ... CE


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## jooky (Mar 18, 2016)

'Should I crush all but the best? One was already capped and gorgeous." sure, if you like throwing away easy money


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Make as many splits with queen cells that you can not every queen will return and not every queen that returns will be good. After you evaluate the queens you can cull all the queens that aren't up to snuff then combine the hives for your production of honey. That's old farmer wisdom.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Old farmer wisdom is to operate within your means.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

That's what I said Clyde.


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## nediver (May 26, 2013)

I still have two empty nucs, so I will take a frame of cells from each. I am going to leave the frame with the big cell and the adjacent cells on that frame.

I am going to move most of these bees to an outyard that I know produces well and has another yard with 12 hives close with dense drones. I can lose bees and honey in the country and live with myself. I cannot lose them in my neighborhood.

Question- With only one cell capped yesterday 8 days +/- I have time to move these bees Sunday. Would be day 11 at most. The old queen is gone so I don't think they will swarm before Sunday.

Thoughts and many thanks?


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Dan the bee guy said:


> That's what I said Clyde.


Oh. I thought you said to make as many as possible. Then combine back later.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

nediver said:


> I still have two empty nucs, so I will take a frame of cells from each. I am going to leave the frame with the big cell and the adjacent cells on that frame.
> 
> I am going to move most of these bees to an outyard that I know produces well and has another yard with 12 hives close with dense drones. I can lose bees and honey in the country and live with myself. I cannot lose them in my neighborhood.
> 
> ...


I would not be able to split those 2 hives 3 ways each using up as many qcells as I can and still expect to see a honey harvest. I would need to make very strong splits as my flow is maybe a brood cycle away. Populated hives make honey, weak hives don't.
Weak nucs or splits have to long a growth curve to be usable for anything other than stealing brood from to strengthen production hives. They languish all flow long and are a waste of resources.
Waiting to evaluate these new queens would put me to far into the main flow to be of any use this year in production hives.
When do berries and blk locust bloom for you? Linden? when does clover burn out?

Pupal stage queens are fragile, particularly early pupal, that's why most wait to the last minute to move them and install. 
I don't' think they will swarm Sunday either.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

Queens made this year will be production hives next year if a queen isn't up to snuff do away with her and give all brood to a production hive if you want honey or use the brood and bees for raising more queens. There are many ways to use the extra brood you have to decide where your needs are.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Dan the bee guy said:


> Queens made this year will be production hives next year if a queen isn't up to snuff do away with her and give all brood to a production hive if you want honey or use the brood and bees for raising more queens. There are many ways to use the extra brood you have to decide where your needs are.


Not sure who this directed towards but I'll respond-
maybe that works in WI.

Sure there are many ways to use brood, one of them is not to waste it on production hives half way through the 10 week flow.


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

clyderoad said:


> Not sure who this directed towards but I'll respond-
> maybe that works in WI.
> 
> Sure there are many ways to use brood, one of them is not to waste it on production hives half way through the 10 week flow.


Ya WI has a flow all summer long but today we have 2 inches of snow on the ground so it's all in the timing when it will do the most good and we had one hell of a goldenrod flow last year


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Dan the bee guy said:


> Ya WI has a flow all summer long but today we have 2 inches of snow on the ground so it's all in the timing when it will do the most good and we had one hell of a goldenrod flow last year


2" of snow here today gone tomorrow haha.
Yes timing! do you think the conditions in central CT are comparable to WI?


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

clyderoad said:


> 2" of snow here today gone tomorrow haha.
> Yes timing! do you think the conditions in central CT are comparable to WI?


Conditions change from year to year it never stays the same you have to roll with the flow.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Dan the bee guy said:


> Conditions change from year to year it never stays the same you have to roll with the flow.


good luck with your bees.


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## nediver (May 26, 2013)

Clyde

My location is wrong. I'm on CT shore. Same flow as you. 

So now I'm confused what steps to take. Your latest post implies don't keep splitting the extra cells into Nucs. I presume you would Smash all but best. I aim to make a crop and not have swarm. I'm not trying to boost numbers or make money selling bees.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

nediver said:


> Clyde
> 
> My location is wrong. I'm on CT shore. Same flow as you.
> 
> So now I'm confused what steps to take. Your latest post implies don't keep splitting the extra cells into Nucs. I presume you would Smash all but best. I aim to make a crop and not have swarm. I'm not trying to boost numbers or make money selling bees.


That is correct, I would not keep splitting to try and use the extra cells if I wanted to make a honey crop. Yes I'd destroy the extras.
Our flow is right around the corner, we need strong production hives with lots of forage age bees to take advantage of our flow. Splitting them down further will not result in the bees necessary. It looks to me we are maybe 2 1/2 weeks from big nectar flowing. Blck locust broke leaf a couple of days ago and it'll bloom in 2 or 3 weeks. Russian olive is 2 weeks away. Horse chestnut, catalpa, plantain, blueberries two + weeks or so. Wild black cherry and brambles 3 weeks or so.
I set my production hives back by taking only enough brood to keep open frames in the brood nest, it's a fine line. The 25 new starts I made came from the brood and bees from about 100 production hives, not every hive donated.

Your original hive that gave up 4 frames a week ago, one more for the nuc yesterday, the queen a few brood frames and a few shakes of bees yesterday, a mated Strachan queen in a medium split off box, is left with qcells and one of the original boxes right? if so it may need a donation of bees and capped brood from the other production hive to be productive. Equalize them in the next week for production or Sometimes if one hive has way more foragers than another I'll switch the places of the hives so the weaker gains the excess foragers from the much stronger.
Am I helping or causing further confusion?


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## nediver (May 26, 2013)

Moved bees today to an outyard. 

Strachan Caged queen hive. 

2 package starts from March. 

Split with old queen from Hive #1. It didn't look great. There isn't a lot of bees so I must have had a sizable drift back. 

In my home yard I have two NUCS. One with swarm cell and other with old queen from Hive #2. 

Will pop tops on those hives over weekend to select only the best cells. At that time I can access the drift and if I need to combine from the NUcS to any splits or back to parent hive #1 or #2.


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## nediver (May 26, 2013)

4/29 I smashed all but the best cell. I thought I got them all. Perhaps I left two cells. 

5/9 Today. Hive #1 swarmed. This was a hive I made 2 splits and Nuc from back on 4/26. Was able to catch the swarm. 

Parent colony


Swarm Box I carry


Marching into hive 



An hour after swarming


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## nediver (May 26, 2013)

Marked this gorgeous lady from that swarm. Now she needs to laying.


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