# What's a fair price for northern raised nucs and queens



## Michael Johnston (Nov 25, 2007)

I have had some feedback from other bee breeders that my prices for nucs and queens were too low. I was going to charge $70 for a 4 frame nuc and $20 for a queen. For some background, I think that these bees are very good and worth a premium price. The bees are mite resistant, haven't treated for mites since 2003. Nucs with overwintered queens usually have 4 frames of big brood. Nucs with young queens come later and are not as strong but should produce a surplus and overwinter very well. I am considering going to $80 for a nuc and $25 for a queen. Located in upstate Central New York, prices might be higher in New England.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Quantity is of course a consideration.

But if they are deeps then $70 is a bit cheap. Not a
give away though.

As to queens........... $20 is fair. It depends on the 
breed and mating situation to me.


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

The queen price is around the standard, and the nuc price is fair, but you could probably get another $10 or $20 without too many people balking. You can get a full 10-frame single around here for around $100. On the other end of the scale B Weaver just introduced their 2 frame nuc for $140. Yes, I said 2-frame. I wonder if this even qualifies as a nuc! They have a new website and a "movie" (advertisement) aimed at a target audience from the Houston/Dallas area. It is shameless. Click on "Is beekeeping for you?"

http://www.beeweaver.com/Videos.html


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## jdpro5010 (Mar 22, 2007)

For "local, mite resistant" bees I don't think you would have a problem getting $80 or $90.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The packages of recent years have been very poor. They run $75 here and only about one in two does very well at all. About half of them either dwindle or end up moving next door. So for every established package, it costs about $150. And then the queen is not from acclimatized stock. So in my opinion, it's a bargin to buy a strong nuc (like five deep frames or eight medium frames) for $150 and a little more wouldn't be out of line. I think that is competitive with the packages and less "iffy".

Then if you have small cell nucs...


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

I just saw a price for Ga packages (3lb) at $65. I would think that nuc prices could safely be closer to the 80-90 price range.


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

I agree with the other guys $80 minumum. Queen price is pretty good I think.


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

Last year 5 frame nuc prices around here were running $65 to $85 depending on if they are deeps or mediums. Queens are $20.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

The area where I live is expensive although local nuc prices are very reasonable.
$75-$125
A respectable breeder who writes articles for the magazines was charging $90 last year. "BYOB" thats Bring You're Own Box, not bottle


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

How many of y'all are willing to order them from Mike?

Mike, are you claiming some sort of better viability of these Northern raised Nucs and Queens? How many years have your queens survived in your colonies? Do you have queens in your hives that you know are 1,2, or 3 years old?

How early are your queens available? Earlier than Mike Palmers?

Peter borst says good things about you. I wish you would have been at the ESHPA Fall Mtng. I would love to hear about you operation and ways of managment.


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## Bodhi (Aug 30, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> How many of y'all are willing to order them from Mike?


I've just sent him a PM...


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

Depends on the NUC size...if it's 5 frames, 3 with brood, pollen and honey and two drawn frames.....$100, however if you order in bulk, it will be less and also depends on type of bee.....mutts are $100. With that said, they are northern bees and are not transported to the south, nor are they coming from migratory hives.


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

Depends on the NUC size...if it's 5 frames, 3 with brood, pollen and honey and two drawn frames and laying queen.....$100, however if you order in bulk, it will be less and also depends on type of bee.....mutts are $100. With that said, they are northern bees and are not transported to the south, nor are they coming from migratory hives. Oh, and the frames come in the cardboard box designed for NUC's, you pick up...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yeah, I had this ,discussion w/ a guy today. Since my bees spend 6 months in NY and 6 months in SC are they NY bees that winter in SC or are they SC bees that summer in NY?

And what about those queens that i bought from Mike Palmer? Now that they are in SC, does that devalue them? Or their daughters queens?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I think you should at least base your nuc price on the cost of packaged bees in your area. John says they are $65 in Virginia. Mike, in your area of New York, the prices are closer to $75 or $80. And at that price everybody complains about how terrible the bees are and half don't make the summer...let alone the winter.

To the base price of $75, you have to add the cost of the frames. No, actually you have to add the price of the frames and the combs and the brood. How much is a nice frame of brood worth? $10? So now you're up to $115. And what about that micro-brewed queen that you toiled and fretted and used all your beekeeping knowledge to grow? Isn't she worth more than that southern queen raised so far away? How much more? $5? $10?

Do you see why I think good early spring nucs are worth $120? Mine usually make a hundred pounds. Two supers would more than pay for the extra cost...heck...it'd pay for the whole schmere.


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## Jeffzhear (Dec 2, 2006)

Now, if you want TN bees early, for pickup in NY....that's another option...Or TN NUC's with Northern Queens....there's another option...


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Why look at what it has cost to produce the nuc, but rather what income can be generated from it. Will it out perform a 3lb package? A 4 lb package? Is a package or nuc, that is 10 dollars more than than the competitions, really more expensive, if it can be split on June 1, and the competitions can not? 

Roland


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## Michael Johnston (Nov 25, 2007)

In regards to the queens, I'm trying to select from hives that have made it through at least two winters. The earliest that I could produce any queens would probably be May 25 unless I had a spring like 2009. In 2009 Spring came 10 days earlier but I didn't take advantage of it by grafting any earlier. I start grafting on May 1. There's not much point in putting queen cells out if the drones are not ready. If a beehive knows how to supercede without swarming, then that's a very excellent trait. I need to start marking and clipping my queens in order to keep track of this. My breeder #1 is going into its third winter and is suspiciously strong. 
I can see how my early nucs are actually worth more than later nucs. They could easily be split as soon as some queens are available.
I appreciate everyone's input on this. 
Nosema ceranae is still the wild card. My bee inspector found a high nosema spore count in half of my yards. The bees look very healthy now. I managed to get fumagillin syrup on my hives that have baby nuc frames. I haven't got any fumagillin syrup on the hives with standard deep frames. So far I haven't seen much discussion of nosema on Beesource.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Michael Johnston said:


> I recently received a USDA Specialty Crop Grant through NYS Ag & Markets. The very long title of the grant is _A Demonstration of the Feasibility of a Northeast-based Honeybee Production Industry While Meeting the Challenge of the Newest Disease to Hit New York State Honeybees_. Under the grant, I am supposed to produce 150 nucs and 600 queens per year for three years. These bees will be available at 1/2 the normal price. In return beekeepers that work with me will have to cooperate in having their bees inspected and will have to keep track of their bees for the sake of selecting breeder queens that are resistant to nosema ceranae. My bees are already resistant to varroa.


the quote above is from mikes first post. If the grant is to show resistence to nosema ceranae, why would you be feeing fumidil, how would this help find resistence? If we purchase the nucs are we to also feed fumidil? 

mike syracuse


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Michael Johnston said:


> I can see how my early nucs are actually worth more than later nucs. They could easily be split as soon as some queens are available.
> I appreciate everyone's input on this.


are the early nucs the ones that you overwinter? are these going to be for sale and if so what time frame would these be available?

mike syracuse


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Johnston said:


> My breeder #1 is going into its third winter and is suspiciously strong.


The same queen? Where did you get her?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The title of this thread reminds me of a bumper sticker that a local Food and Hunger Organization, Garden Share, puts out. "Fair to Farmers, Fresh to You".

So, imo, the answer to the question is perhaps, what the market will bear. Figure out what you, the producer, are willing to take for all of your expense and expertiece and go from there.

This is the same question that we have when we discuss the price of honey. What do you have to have and what are you willing to take?

I sold nucs last year for $80.00, made from my hives, in SC, w/ queens from CA and cells from a NY beekeepeer whose bees were in SC. 

When I was putting an ad in the state bee club newsletter it was suggested that I price the nucs at $100.00. I did and got no orders. I don't really know what that says, about the price or the readers of the ad.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> I sold nucs last year for $80.00, made from my hives, in SC, w/ queens from CA and cells from a NY beekeepeer whose bees were in SC.
> 
> When I was putting an ad in the state bee club newsletter it was suggested that I price the nucs at $100.00. I did and got no orders. I don't really know what that says, about the price or the readers of the ad.


$80.00 is the price we sold 5 frame nucs at, 5 frames of brood(with some pollen and honey in the frames) with wilbanks queens for last year on May 10.
sold all we had planned on selling and could have sold more. Not looking at selling any this year as no matter what Mike Johnston sells his at as the usda is going to give the buyer back half the purchase price. So looks like if the price is reasonable its a year to buy not sell. 

mike syracuse


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## CentralPAguy (Feb 8, 2009)

wildbranch2007 said:


> as the usda is going to give the buyer back half the purchase price.


I am confused -- Are you stating for fact that the USDA is giving funds away to purchase bees?

If so, where can I look to find more info.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> Not looking at selling any this year as no matter what Mike Johnston sells his at as the usda is going to give the buyer back half the purchase price.
> mike syracuse


I'll give you 10 cents for every beekeeper who actually does get a check from Uncle Sam for bee replacement. Well, not really. I just wouldn't base a decision on buying or selling in that way.

Now, if you could get Mike to sell all of them to you cheaply and then you sold them higher, that would be good.


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

Well, every year I keep records on prices of package bees, queens and nucs - with and without shipping. Here are the average prices from my records (keep in mind, 2010 prices are not complete):

*3lb pkg* 4lb pkg *3 fr. nuc* 4fr. nuc *5fr. nuc* Queen

2009 *74.64* 81.75 *82.50* 95.00 * n/d * 20.00

2010 *83.38 * 88.33 *95.00 * 100.75 *110.00* 23.15

2009 3lb package data are based on 27 package suppliers. 2009 4lb package data are based on a subset of those 27 (I don't recall how many because I erased the raw data to accommodate the new 2010 data).

I also can't tell you how many nuc suppliers the the 2009 data is based upon, but the 2010 data is computed from:
3 fr. nuc - 1 supplier
4 fr. nuc - 4 suppliers
5 fr. nuc - 4 suppliers

Shipping/Postage for 2010 is running at:

UPS for packages: 68.07
USPS for packages: 21.17
USPS for Queens: 14.27

Shipping for queens is REALLY variable, ranging from $8.00 for the first 10 to $35.00 (USPS) for the first 10. 

Anyway, hope this provides some helpful baseline data. When I have my records complete for 2010 (probably in January), I will make the list available by request to the forum.


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## Michael Johnston (Nov 25, 2007)

Why use funagillin if you're trying to breed for resistance?
I say don't expect to find resistance immediately. I don't treat for varroa any more but it took me 10 years and some fairly big losses to get to that point. In a perfect world, my strategy would be to ease off on the use of fumagillin over time. Feeding syrup up north after all of the honey has been removed is problematic. I may see the full impact of nosema ceranae on some hives sooner than I would like.

Early nucs have overwintered queens.

Where did Breeder #1 come from?
I raised it myself. The last time that I bought a queen was 1991. I bought some "carniolians" then but they were not pure carniolians.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

I didn't mean to change the direction of this thread, if you look on page two of this thread its explained and I copied part of the thread below, and some information that I have gotten from mike on the project.

Originally Posted by Michael Johnston 
I recently received a USDA Specialty Crop Grant through NYS Ag & Markets. The very long title of the grant is A Demonstration of the Feasibility of a Northeast-based Honeybee Production Industry While Meeting the Challenge of the Newest Disease to Hit New York State Honeybees. Under the grant, I am supposed to produce 150 nucs and 600 queens per year for three years. These bees will be available at 1/2 the normal price.

from correspondence with mike the bees have to be permanent in N.Y., you pay the full price to mike and the usda reimburses half back to you at some point. I'm more interested in figuring out if Nosema c. is affecting my production, so I'm trying to figure out how to take advantage(if there is an advantage) of the lower cost nucs and how the N.Y. inspectors are going to test, and what haveing mike's bees would be any different in the testing than testing my own bees if we are both feeding fumidil. now if the study said some have to be feed pollen subsitute and hives next to if fumidil and hives next to that the other supplemts, then tested and results published I would be more interested. but at this point i think mike is just setting up so details are schetch.

mike syracuse


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Johnston said:


> Where did Breeder #1 come from?
> I raised it myself. The last time that I bought a queen was 1991. I bought some "carniolians" then but they were not pure carniolians.


Sounds good to me. Similar to Mike Palmer, I believe. What is it about beekeepers named Mike?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Michael Johnston said:


> Why use funagillin if you're trying to breed for resistance?
> In a perfect world, my strategy would be to ease off on the use of fumagillin over time. Feeding syrup up north after all of the honey has been removed is problematic. I may see the full impact of nosema ceranae on some hives sooner than I would like.


you might want to look at the following site, it has more good info on nosema c. than most places I have found and help you set up the program.

http://www.scientificbeekeeping.com//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=47&Itemid=63

mike syracuse


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

mj, how are you testing for nosema? Or are you only going by what the State Inspection found? I had two samples taken for two different yards. One sample was zero nosema found. The other was 2.75 million spores per bee. I don't see how there could be so much difference.


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## ACBEES (Mar 13, 2009)

Im wondering how much our crappy economy will affect orders this year. Lots of folks struggling to hang on out there. If you are wanting/needing to sell bees, now may not be the best time to hike prices.


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## Michael Johnston (Nov 25, 2007)

I wasn't actually trying to discuss the grant in this thread. The grant is USDA money that is administered by NYS Ag & Markets. The people at Ag & Markets have said that I can raise my prices over what was listed in the original grant proposal. The reimbursement will remain the same. So regarless of the price, the purchaser would be reimbursed $35 for a nuc and $10 for a queen.
Participating beekeepers can pursue whatever medication program that they want. The grant will pay for the NYS inspectors and the cost of testing for Nosema ceranae. I am looking for breeder queens that display a lower level of nosema than the background population.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The market will tell us so. And if one doesn't get everything they can for their nucs, then that is lost money, lost income.

If I sell 100 nucs for $80.00 and someone else (Betterbee, let's say) sells 100 nucs for $100.00, that's $2,000.00 that i missed out on. On the other hand, if I only sell 80 nucs at $100.00 each I will still have my $8,000.00. And 20 nucs to make honey w/. So where is the loss?


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## Michael Johnston (Nov 25, 2007)

In regards to the different levels of nosema spores. The thinking would be that the yard with 2.75 million spores has nosema ceranae while the yard with 0 spores doesn't have it yet. Chief Inspector Paul Cappy tells me that there's a more precise test that costs $35 per sample. There is money in the grant to pay for these tests.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

ACbees, You may be right about the economy, but last year was a boom for nucs, queens and hobbist getting a hive. BUT it is my prediction that there will be a huge bee loss over winter from NC, TN, KY, OH, PA, Wv and some others. THERE was NO fall flow at all in most of these areas. Alot of hungry bees with short stores and I afraid they will end up with small clusters do to queens shutting down. With a snowy cold winter in the forecast I think we will have a disaster this winter!


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

I plan on selling my nucs for 80-95 dollars depending on number purchased.


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## brooksbeefarm (Apr 13, 2008)

Suttonbeeman, i'm afraid your right. But i hope your wrong.:s Jack


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Michael Johnston said:


> So far I haven't seen much discussion of nosema on Beesource.


if you go up to the top of the page and hit the search button and type in nosema I got 500 hits about threads that have discussed it.

mike syracuse


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Johnston said:


> Chief Inspector Paul Cappy tells me that there's a more precise test that costs $35 per sample. There is money in the grant to pay for these tests.


I believe that that test is to determine apis or cerana, isn't it? Do you know what the test is?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Micheal, on your first thread you mentioned selling nucs and queens at half price to NY beekeepers who would keep the bees in NY and keep track of them, have them inspected, etc. Is this why you are asking about what a fair price is?


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## Michael Johnston (Nov 25, 2007)

Yes, the test is to determine whether it is Nosema apis or Nosema ceranae. You'd have to ask Paul Cappy if you want to know more about it.
I'm asking about the fair price because I had some feedback that my prices were too low. Sometimes if you don't charge much, then people don't think that they're worth much. I think that these bees are better than most anything else you can buy. (As long as we don't get blind-sided by nosema ceranae.)


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael Johnston said:


> I think that these bees are better than most anything else you can buy. (As long as we don't get blind-sided by nosema ceranae.)


Well, some will...get blind sided. That's the benefit from wintering your nucs. Those that can't make it are no longer with us. 

Another reason why your over wintered nucs are more valuable than packages or splits.


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## CentralPAguy (Feb 8, 2009)

I used to think that Northern raised bees were superior due to them surviving the winter, but so many of us have bought southern queens, put them into our hives and they survive too. So, even a Southern queen that is superceded by a daughter, her genetics came from the South. 

I am thinking that there are alot of Northern Beeks, who split their hives in May and add non-wintered queens to them and sell them as nucs.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Johnston said:


> Yes, the test is to determine whether it is Nosema apis or Nosema ceranae. You'd have to ask Paul Cappy if you want to know more about it.


I did talk to Paul at the ESHPA mtng. I haven't gotten the result on n. cerana or n. apis from the sample that came back positive for nosema. If the results take as long as the previous results took, I won't know until next year.

Just curious, if you are getting a $57,000.00 grant to produce a nosema resistant strain of bees, shouldn't those bees be available to willing participants at a greatly reduced rate? It seems, perhaps, like you are already getting paid for the queens before you sell them. But maybe I'm missing something.

I also believe that you statede that your bees are varroa resistant and that you haven't treated them for X number of years. Is that correct? Other thyan having bees that are still alive, is there any other way that you determine their resistance to varroa? Do you take a frame of dronwe brood from a varroa infested hive and put that into your resistant hive to test its' resistance?

Thanks for discussing this w/ me.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Just curious, if you are getting a $57,000.00 grant to produce a nosema resistant strain of bees, shouldn't those bees be available to willing participants at a greatly reduced rate?
> Thanks for discussing this w/ me.


I was thinking just the oposite, shouldn't the first few steps be to test many beeks bees, looking for bees that might be resistant, and then distribute those queens to see if they really are resistant and then test some more??
It probable would make more sense if you could see the justification that was submitted to get the grant to know what is trying to be acomplished. I searched on the database using Mikes title and got no hits, so I assume they only publish the results, not ongoing trials. From what I can see at this point its a way to keep the bee inspecters cost justified in a bad economy, now thay have "some" purpose. I would also like to see the standard procedure the bee inspectors use to catch the bees that they are using for the test. stuff I have read off of randy olivers site suggest things that can influence the test are time of day, where you catch the bees you test, etc. you can get a high reading one day come back the next and test at a different time and position in the hive and get a low reading. also test different makes and models of bees, ie russians, italians, mongrels.

mike syracuse


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

wildbranch2007 said:


> I would also like to see the standard procedure the bee inspectors use to catch the bees that they are using for the test. stuff I have read off of randy olivers site suggest things that can influence the test are time of day, where you catch the bees you test, etc. mike syracuse


I wasn't on site to supervise the inspector when he took thye sample of bees, but my understanding is that an inspector is supposed to gather a number of bees (100, I think) that are returning to the hive(foragers) and do so from a number of hives in the yard, at whatever time of day the inspection is done. The sample is divided onto 2 parts, so when nosema are found, the second half of the sample can be sent to another lab to determine n. apis or n. cerana. If any of this is incorrect I imagine someone will speak up.

I think they do this by hand.


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## Michael Johnston (Nov 25, 2007)

Hello Mark and Mike-
I'll try to answer your questions.
Lynn Barton was my bee inspector. He took the samples for nosema by vacuuming them off of the entrance to a number of hives. I never got a determination whether it was nosema apis or nosema ceranae, only a spore count. I was told that another sample would be taken at a later time to determine which nosema, but that didn't happen.
I don't get any money up front from the grant. Participating beekeepers will get a $35 per nuc and $10 per queen reimbursement from the grant. I had feedback that my prices were too low so that's why I started this thread. This thread did give me some pretty good basis for determining a fair price and it did confirm that my prices were too low. NYS Ag & Markets has told me that I can raise my price but the reimbursement will remain the same. So basicly, the level of "cost-share" will go down; it won't be a 50% reimbursement.
I'll have to send Mike from Syracuse a copy of my Specialty Crop grant proposal. If he's got input, then I'm willing to listen. There were 92 applications and 10 got funded. Mine ranked #9 so I just made it. The other 9 went to some division or other of Cornell Ag School. At least with this grant, some members of the farming public will see direct monetary benefit for participating.
I've had really good results from working with my bee inspector the past three years. I have nothing bad to say about the service that I've gotten. Maybe the other inspectors aren't quite as good.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks Micheal. That clears some things up and sounds different than what I thought I understood from earlier posts, about the money that is.

I thought that this was a UISDA Grant. What does Ag&Mkts have to do w/ it? Or is it an ag&Mkts Grant?

Yes, Lynn is a good inspector and has some of the same opinions as I do about what the program should be, more extension than regulation. My inspector may be good at doing what he is told to do, but I wish he would be more comunicative w/ me.

Thanks for your explanation and I hope you didn't think that you were being critisized.


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## Maine_Beekeeper (Mar 19, 2006)

Central PA: 
re: 
I used to think that Northern raised bees were superior due to them surviving the winter, but so many of us have bought southern queens, put them into our hives and they survive too. So, even a Southern queen that is superceded by a daughter, her genetics came from the South. 

I am thinking that there are alot of Northern Beeks, who split their hives in May and add non-wintered queens to them and sell them as nucs. 

My nucs come with overwintered queens. 
That said, a "late" northern nuc say in June, or late May which is headed by a northern raised "added" queen will, by definition, be the daughter of a winter surviving queen mated with the drones produced by other winter surviving queens. 
The key is queen origin - late nucs with first queens of the year northern raised queens are not the same as nucs created from overwintered bees where the queen is purchased "from away"

Just getting that out there... 
-Erin


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## Hampton (Apr 24, 2007)

I find it odd talking about northern queens. Virginia is in the south and Hampton is just about as south as virginia gets before Norfolk and Chesapeake. We still consider queens raised in Georgia to be Southern. Packages that come in here from down south have a high rate of failure even here! Including Winter. Just because the original Queens form our bees may have come from down south does not mean that those daughters that make it through the winter are southern. Those queens that show heartyness and the ability to withstand cold over time have grown beyond their grand mothers intended genetics.

I'm originally from Upper Michigan. Our winters in Virginia are mild compared to NY though.


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## CentralPAguy (Feb 8, 2009)

Maine_Beekeeper said:


> The key is queen origin - late nucs with first queens of the year northern raised queens are not the same as nucs created from overwintered bees where the queen is purchased "from away"


You are right and those are the types of nucs that I would be interested in. I would be very interested in those queens that have a proven track record against the mites and are winter hardy at least for my climate zone. I also would be interested in a later summer queen than an early spring queen that survived the winter.

My thoughts are that I need the nucs ready and in my possession by the end of March/early April in order to take advantage of the 3 month nectar flow in my area. 



Hampton said:


> Just because the original Queens form our bees may have come from down south does not mean that those daughters that make it through the winter are southern. Those queens that show heartyness and the ability to withstand cold over time have grown beyond their grand mothers intended genetics.


Hampton, wouldn't the daughter Queen from the original Southern queen still contain 100% Southern genetics and only the granddaughter Queen would have a different mix. If a daughter Queen did survive then I would have interest. 

There are alot of factors involved in winter survivability besides genetics including shelter, food resources, size of the surviving cluster, etc. 

My concern is that if a premium is going to be placed onto a "Northern" nuc over a "Southern" nuc, then I want to be sure that I received the Surviving Northern Queen and not a replacement Southern queen when beeks do their splits. I don't know how one validates that other than relying on one's reputation.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Here's a thouight.

Say Micheal gets a nosema resistant/varroa resitant Northern raised Queen Line established. Don't you think that the breeders in GA, FL and CA would grab up a bunch of proven queens and raise daughters to sell to beekeepers? And if they did, how many generations could they raise before they would be reverted to "southern"?

Mike Palmer,
Are you planning on ever wintering smaller nucs so you can have more northern queens available earlier in the season for selling? Since most people in NY and New England, who buy queens, want them in April or May, wouldn't there be enuf of a market to make something like that worth while? Or maybe your double nucs are about as small as you can go.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Here's a thouight.
> 
> Say Micheal gets a nosema resistant/varroa resitant Northern raised Queen Line established. Don't you think that the breeders in GA, FL and CA would grab up a bunch of proven queens and raise daughters to sell to beekeepers? And if they did, how many generations could they raise before they would be reverted to "southern"?


my guess the first queens they sent back north would be southern, because they would take mikes queens, make queens off of them and mate them with there droans. they wouldn't spend the time, nor eliminate there own genetics before making a profit. just the american way. besides if I was mike and actually created such a line, I wouldn't sell it to the breeders I would move south, raise them myself and capture the market

mike syracuse


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Mike wouldn't though. He likes his winters off. At least part of them. But I get your point.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Here's a thouight.
> 
> Mike Palmer,
> Are you planning on ever wintering smaller nucs so you can have more northern queens available earlier in the season for selling? Since most people in NY and New England, who buy queens, want them in April or May, wouldn't there be enuf of a market to make something like that worth while? Or maybe your double nucs are about as small as you can go.


You are absolutely correct, you could sell every nuc or queen that you raised, the problem I have had with it is you(I) have to have either russians or carniolas so that they can survive with smaller winter stores. Having tried the russians, they just aren't ready for the early flows that we sometimes get. two years ago I had a full deep of honey on the italians and the russians were just starting to go in the same yards under the same conditions. and the russians kept giving me heart attacks, every time I opened them up, queen cells everywhere, I finally stoped opening them ended the year with the original queens. I am looking at mike johnstons other sare grant, overwintering two queens in a side by side double deeps and have some questions for mike on that.

mike syracuse


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> Mike Palmer,
> Are you planning on ever wintering smaller nucs so you can have more northern queens available earlier in the season for selling? Since most people in NY and New England, who buy queens, want them in April or May, wouldn't there be enuf of a market to make something like that worth while? Or maybe your double nucs are about as small as you can go.


First, I'll say here what I said in another thread in this forum. We need to stop the "Northern/Southern" debate. I'm sure our southern brothers and sisters are sick and tired of hearing it. It's not the correct term. We should be talking "Local."

I winter all sorts of nuc configurations. 4 frame is my most common with 2 nucs per body. This summer I started adding a 4 frame super to each side to make 8 frame nucs...helps with the earliest made nucs to control swarming.

I also winter my mating nucs. During the breeding season, these are 4 ways....4 mini nucs in a body divioded into quarters with mini frames. These can be wintered as quarters, but I like to remove 2 queens in August and winter as doubles with 8 mini frames. Easier to winter them that way.

I could go smaller...wintering more in 4 way nuc boxes. I'd rather increase my number of 4 frame nucs if I want more queens in the spring. A queen is about $20. A nuc is $120. So, I increased my 4 frame nuc numbers to 450 this winter. If beekeepers want my queens in early May...they have to buy the nuc. I think there's a huge demand for early nucs with quality "local" queens. How many thousands of packages are shipped to NY and New England each spring...thousands! And what does a beekeeper get for their $$. Headaches and heartbreaks!


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> Here's a thouight.
> 
> Say Micheal gets a nosema resistant/varroa resitant Northern raised Queen Line established. Don't you think that the breeders in GA, FL and CA would grab up a bunch of proven queens and raise daughters to sell to beekeepers?


Sue Cobey & Rob Page might in CA, but I really doubt any breeders in Georgia would pursue that (Dann Purvis excepted because he's now in Tennessee) because it doesn't benefit their business. To them it's about volume and volume. Dann will admit that he lets 50% or more of his colonies die out over winter, because he's seeking the hardcore survival stock.

Also, here's a revolutionary (and no doubt controversial) theory. Why not breed a non-fatalistic varroa mite? Varroa and Apis Cerana coexisted for centuries in Asia. We'll never rid ourselves of Varroa, we just need to come to terms with that right now. So why not concentrate on breeding a Varroa mite that won't destroy it's host?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So why not concentrate on breeding a Varroa mite that won't destroy it's host? 

All you have to do is quit treating...


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Michael Johnston said:


> I have had some feedback from other bee breeders that my prices for nucs and queens were too low.


Northern VA. Packages are $65. Deep Overwintered nucs are range from $85 for 3 frame to $125 for 5 frame and SELL out way before Spring every year.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Michael Johnston said:


> In regards to the different levels of nosema spores. The thinking would be that the yard with 2.75 million spores has nosema ceranae while the yard with 0 spores doesn't have it yet. Chief Inspector Paul Cappy tells me that there's a more precise test that costs $35 per sample. There is money in the grant to pay for these tests.


 Dr. Rick Fell did a study here in Virginia= analyzed about 300 samples from around the state. The more precise test may be a DNA test.There were lots of false postives when the more precise test was done. YOu might want to contact him at Virgnia Tech.


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## Michael Johnston (Nov 25, 2007)

Thanks for all of the input.
I think that I will charge:
$90 for 4 frame overwintered nucs available starting May 10
$80 for 4 frame nucs with young queens available starting June 1
$20 for queens available June 1

I only plan on selling around 200 nucs and 600 queens so I am definitely not any sort of big time operator.
I will try to get the early nuc purchasers to buy only 1/2 the number that they need and then split them around June 1 with young queens that I will mail to them. Going by past experience, the early nucs should be very strong.
Beekeepers that participate in the grant will be able to send in a voucher for cost-share after we confirm that the bees have been placed in hives with identifying marks.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Johnston said:


> Beekeepers that participate in the grant will be able to send in a voucher for cost-share after we confirm that the bees have been placed in hives with identifying marks.


Send the voucher to who? USDA? Or NYS Ag&Mkts?


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## Michael Johnston (Nov 25, 2007)

The voucher would go to NYS Ag & Markets. This is USDA money that is being passed through them. I don't know the exact procedure because I haven't gotten a contract yet. After I get the contract, I'll probably still have questions. Even in the world of grants, this is complicated. I wrote the grant in the way that I did because of the parameters of the original Request for Proposals (RFP). Paul Cappy tells me that the lawyers are looking at it now but that is standard that they would be looking at it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I wonder why Cornell isn't doing this research and development? Not to take work away from MJ. But it is a curiousity. Isn't that what Cornell is for? It was at one time.


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## Michael Johnston (Nov 25, 2007)

Actually, Nick Calderone did submit a grant application to this program. My application ranked higher than his. I will send an article that explains my grant to your regular e-mail. It's too long to fit on this site.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What role did Ag&Mkts play in the approval process?


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## Michael Johnston (Nov 25, 2007)

Ag & Markets ranked them and awarded the grants. The method of scoring them was spelled out in the RFP. The RFP is probably still on the NYS Dept. of Ag & Markets site. I think that I would have ranked higher if I had had more time to gather a couple of letters of support. As it was, I just made the cut.
Mark- Did you get that article? Your e-mail is not very user-friendly.


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