# Oxalic acid fogger



## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

Oxacalic acid is in powder form. That insect fogger is for liquid insecticides. Robert


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## cata_rebel (Jun 26, 2013)

Bkwoodsbees said:


> Oxacalic acid is in powder form. That insect fogger is for liquid insecticides. Robert


I know is powder ... I'm using it......If you combine OA whit water result liquid .....
I'm curios if anybody using this and how much to add in water to get best results


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I don't understand Croation, but the titles are something like _control of treatment smoke gun_ (Google translate). One of the comments in the second video mentions Amitraz. 

I entered oxalic acid in English and got oksalna kiselina and don't see anything in the comments that resemble that term. 

IF you could vaporize a solution of OA powder in water with a insect fogger, I would be really interested, but somehow I don't think this is what they are doing.


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## cata_rebel (Jun 26, 2013)

I don't understand Croatian to I know for sure they used it for Varroa mites 
Also I find something similar in Germany and Italy they used heating gun whit some kind reservoir in front but for that must have electricity close to .
This fogger will be easy to work whit and very fast that's why I'm interesting if anyone used it and if they I will like to know the concentration OA / water


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## mike17l (Jun 22, 2012)

If this will work, you should only need the smallest amount of water required for the OA to go into solution.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Those work with oil based insecticides not water based. I used one of those in a former life to create smoke, checking for air leaks in buildings. They generate lots of smoke when mineral oil is put in them. I don't know how you'd ever control the dosage of OA even if it was suitable for mixing with oil. It would likely strip the lining out of your lungs as well


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Brad Bee said:


> Those work with oil based insecticides not water based. I used one of those in a former life to create smoke, checking for air leaks in buildings. They generate lots of smoke when mineral oil is put in them. I don't know how you'd ever control the dosage of OA even if it was suitable for mixing with oil. It would likely strip the lining out of your lungs as well


Yeah, you are right. Those type of foggers produce a mist of tiny oil droplets and the pesticide has to be soluble in the oil. OA is not soluble in oil.


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## Ibeetom (Feb 19, 2016)

Here are mixing directions from a vaporizing unit being sold on ebay at this time. The unit is sold in Ukraine and it appears to have multiple uses in treating hives.

- Solution No. 1 - consists of 100 ml of ethanol, 15 g of oxalic acid and 15 g of thymol (Timol). To ethanol was added oxalic acid. The solution should be warmed in a water bath (about 40-a, 50-degrees) to completely dissolve the acid crystals. Only then added thymol. The solution was stirred until complete dissolution of thymol. The volume of liquid at the end of - 120 mL. This solution is sprayed without leaving any traces in the device "Varomor." 120 mg is sufficient to treat 25 beehives;
- Solution No. 2 - should take 100 ml of purified kerosene and add 5 ml Bipin and stir until a whitish homogeneous solution having no sediment. This amount is sufficient for processing 50 and bee colonies. The solution does not lose its qualities for several months;
- Solution No. 3 - should take 100 mL of water and add 5 ml of tau flyuvanilata and warming in a water bath (temperature 40-50 ° C) until complete dissolution of the drug. The result is 105 ml of the treating solution, which is sufficient to handle 50 and beehives.


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## Billboard (Dec 28, 2014)

Just use a vaporizer


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

eBay - gotta love it.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Ibeetom said:


> Here are mixing directions from a vaporizing unit being sold on ebay at this time. The unit is sold in Ukraine and it appears to have multiple uses in treating hives.
> 
> - Solution No. 1 - consists of 100 ml of ethanol, 15 g of oxalic acid and 15 g of thymol (Timol). To ethanol was added oxalic acid. The solution should be warmed in a water bath (about 40-a, 50-degrees) to completely dissolve the acid crystals. Only then added thymol. The solution was stirred until complete dissolution of thymol. The volume of liquid at the end of - 120 mL. This solution is sprayed without leaving any traces in the device "Varomor." 120 mg is sufficient to treat 25 beehives;
> - Solution No. 2 - should take 100 ml of purified kerosene and add 5 ml Bipin and stir until a whitish homogeneous solution having no sediment. This amount is sufficient for processing 50 and bee colonies. The solution does not lose its qualities for several months;
> - Solution No. 3 - should take 100 mL of water and add 5 ml of tau flyuvanilata and warming in a water bath (temperature 40-50 ° C) until complete dissolution of the drug. The result is 105 ml of the treating solution, which is sufficient to handle 50 and beehives.



Sounds like a scene from Breaking Bad.


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## exmar (Apr 30, 2015)

IMHO just spend a few more bucks and get a vaporizer. If you figure out how to mix the OA and get this to work how you going to get it into the hive compared to a vaporizer? Build a hive body size ADAPTER with appropriate hole in one side? How long to treat, etc.? Guess I have too much time, energy, and $$ invested in my bees to experiment which may result in harming them or not killing varoa which could actually harm them more. Again, JMHO.


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## Ibeetom (Feb 19, 2016)

You could try this one sold by Blue Sky. Uses Oxalic Acid powder and an electric heat gun. A little pricey but if you gotta lot of hives to treat.

http://www.blueskybeesupply.com/hot-air-oxalic-acid-vaporizer-by-lega/


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## Bkwoodsbees (Feb 8, 2014)

I have 2 of those fogger and use them for mosquito control when they get out of hand. The fog would be hard to channel.into a.beehive to get a measured amount. They run off a small propane cylinder and.occasionally some flames come out sides and front. I wouldn't use it on my hives.


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## cata_rebel (Jun 26, 2013)

I know about this from blueskybeesupply there is video on YouTube from Germany and Italy whit heat gun but need power close to or generator fogger was easy and faster option
Probably I will give try whit Ibbetom receipies and I will keep you posted guys .

HEILYSER Have something similar now is out of stock but is around $400 if I'm right
HEILYSER Jb700
http://www.members.shaw.ca/orioleln/vaporizer.html


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

Don't waste your time. I've already tried to pursue this year's ago. Get a vaporizer and be done. Here is me with my Lega unit:

https://youtu.be/ZYvpQUsyV6Y


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Imo oxalic acid strips are the best. Currently testing them and amazing results.


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## newred (Sep 28, 2014)

Oxalic acid strips? Know where I could find any? I am currently using a vaporizer but would like to be able to just lay strips then pull them some time later.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Ive heard of the formic acid strips, but not oxalic.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

RAK said:


> Imo oxalic acid strips are the best. Currently testing them and amazing results.


Are you talking about the oxalic acid glycerin strips?


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## HIVE+ (Jan 4, 2012)

Do a search for a thread from 2005 called "oxalic acid in a fogger", gives mixture ratios http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?204835-OXALIC-ACID-IN-A-FOGGER


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

hex0rz said:


> Are you talking about the oxalic acid glycerin strips?


yes.


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

RAK said:


> yes.


What information are you using to do this with? I have read a little on it, but I thought the efficacy was low..


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Can't go in the details. I might be selling these strips soon.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Anthony, I will give you a call once we go through round number 2. Know of any beekeepers that have mite infested bees? My bees are low on mites to begin with.


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## newred (Sep 28, 2014)

I don't have any now but may this fall... I would be interested to learn more. Are you making them?


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## hex0rz (Jan 14, 2014)

RAK said:


> Anthony, I will give you a call once we go through round number 2. Know of any beekeepers that have mite infested bees? My bees are low on mites to begin with.


Looking forward to it!


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## SunWorks (Dec 8, 2010)

Nabber86 said:


> Sounds like a scene from Breaking Bad.


Smart alec response aside. The Varomor unit works and the treatment formulas are effective.
What I like is that this gives alternative 'recipes' that hopefully help in decreasing the varroa building up resistance to using the same OA ****tail all the time.

It's not humour.
It just works.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Varoa becoming resistant to OA is like a roach becoming resistant to being stomped on


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

:thumbsup:

For the mites to become resistant, OA would have to be poisonous to them. It is not. My understanding is that it dissolves their feet and they essentially bleed out. Can't cite a source for that though.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

While the internet is full of such legends, the work on it is showing outher wize

Toufailia ET AL 2018 Towards integrated control of varroa: 4) varroa mortality from treating broodless winter colonies twice with oxalic acid via sublimation
2nd broodless OAV killed about 35% less mites 
"combined varroa mortality was very high, 99.4%, with greater mortality from the first, 98.3%, than the second, 64.1%, application"
so for what ever reason, Resistance can and does happen... weather or not its inheritable may be another story.


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## Andhors (Dec 7, 2018)

Here is a fogger video with mixing instructions. 
I don’t think you can “dose” with any accuracy using these forgers. Does dosing matter?

https://youtu.be/VQSMheVizGg


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

msl said:


> While the internet is full of such legends, the work on it is showing outher wize
> 
> Toufailia ET AL 2018 Towards integrated control of varroa: 4) varroa mortality from treating broodless winter colonies twice with oxalic acid via sublimation
> 2nd broodless OAV killed about 35% less mites
> ...


msl, I'm not sure I understand what you are claiming about what the results of this study represent. There were only 2 OAV treatments administered 2 weeks apart. Are you suggesting that mites built a significant resistance to OAV after a single treatment?


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

msl said:


> While the internet is full of such legends, the work on it is showing outher wize
> 
> Toufailia ET AL 2018 Towards integrated control of varroa: 4) varroa mortality from treating broodless winter colonies twice with oxalic acid via sublimation
> 2nd broodless OAV killed about 35% less mites
> ...


I'd suggest that the lower percentage figure may be a statistical artifact rather than indicating resistance, as the number of surviving mites was very small indeed: "The mean number surviving was 6 (range 2–18)."

If resistance was considered to have occurred, then I'm sure the authors would have highlighted this - instead they concluded: 


> Overall, the results indicate that double application of OA is worthwhile to beekeepers in varroa management. It is not harmful to colonies and by killing c. 99.5% of the varroa it reduces varroa populations to such an extent that 7–8 doublings, which would take more than one year, are needed to build back to the original level.


The double application being referred to of course, being performed during an 'essentially broodless' winter period.
LJ


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Since writing the above, I've managed to track down the original work - which was a PhD thesis submitted to the University of Sussex (UK): https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/42579622.pdf

Regarding the lower figure from the 2nd treatment, the author writes:


> Varroa mortality from the second OA treatment was lower than in the first, 87.2 v 96.8%. This difference is significant (P<0.001). We do not know why the second application was less effective than the first although there are several possibilities. One possible explanation, which would merit further research, is that some varroa are genetically resistant to OA. However, some mites may be less affected due to phenotypic differences that are non-genetic, such as due to age (Kirrane et al, 2012). It is possible that some mites consistently chose more protected phoretic locations on a host bee, or remain on a single host bee that is less contacted by the oxalic acid fumes perhaps because it consistently remains in a location that receives a lower dose of oxalic acid fumes. The final possibility would require that mites remain on the same host bee across the 2 week treatment period. There are currently no data on how frequently phoretic varroa mites change their host bee in broodless colonies, or whether particular bees may consistently be located in parts of the hive more or less contactable by OA fumes from sublimation.


Quite a few options there to choose from. 
LJ


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

as I ended with 


> Resistance can and does happen... weather or not its inheritable may be another story.


Were I was going was when some one says "this is OA's mode of action" or "resistance to OA can't happen" they are in the relm of specuation, not sisistific fact


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## psm1212 (Feb 9, 2016)

msl said:


> as I ended with
> 
> 
> Were I was going was when some one says "this is OA's mode of action" or "resistance to OA can't happen" they are in the relm of specuation, not sisistific fact


Fair. Thanks for clarifying.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

I think I may have a explanation for the second (lower percentage) figures. In the introduction to this guy's thesis - which is crammed full of useful info, btw, and well-worth reading - he writes:



> Chapter 8: Towards integrated control of varroa: Monitoring honey bee brood rearing in winter and the proportion of varroa in small patches of sealed cells.
> 
> This shows that December is the month with the least brood. However, winter reduction in brood rearing varied among years and even in December some colonies still had sealed brood. Although the amounts of sealed brood were low, even a small patch of c. 500-600 sealed cells could contain 14% of the varroa in a colony.





> The amount of sealed brood in December 2015 was particularly high, both in the proportion of colonies with sealed brood (52%) and in the number of sealed brood cells (mean = 788 ± 336) in the colonies with brood. This was almost certainly due to the warm conditions in autumn and early winter.


Now the assessments of the effectiveness of OA vapourisation (i.e. the kill rate) were made 2 weeks after each application, and so during this 2 weeks at least some of that brood will have emerged - along with any live varroa mites which will have been hidden and thus protected within those brood cells. 

These emerging mites will have distorted the experimental results - because - in percentage terms, the greater the overall number of mites present, the less this 'contaminating' figure of additional mites will have been - and conversely - it will have disproportionately 'contaminated' the figures from the reduced number of mites resulting from the second treatment. QED.

And - if there had been a 3rd treatment, then the percentage figures for 'effectiveness' would have been even lower - because the 'experimental contamination' of mites from emerging brood would have been proportionately higher, viz-a-viz the overall mite drop.

LJ


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## SunWorks (Dec 8, 2010)

johno said:


> Varoa becoming resistant to OA is like a roach becoming resistant to being stomped on


That's a pretty bold statement without providing any peer-reviewed basis.
In other words, I'll wish you well, but listen to those backing up their claims.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Varoa becoming resistant to OA is like a roach becoming resistant to being stomped on​


SunWorks said:


> That's a pretty bold statement without providing any peer-reviewed basis.
> In other words, I'll wish you well, but listen to those backing up their claims.




Jennifer Berry, entomologist with UGA, says basically the same...…. only she says resistant to a hammer...…….


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