# All Mediums a bad idea?



## DBF (Jul 17, 2011)

If you were planning on using double deeps use 3 mediums. The bees don't know the difference. A deep full weighs 90 lb, a medium full weighs 60 lb. While you are at it consider going to 8 frame, a 8 frame medium weighs 48 lb. and bees like 8 frame better than 10. Best of luck on your new venture.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Thanks for your thoughts DBF. I am not to worried about the weight issue, why do bees prefer an 8 frame over a 10 frame setup? I planned on 3 mediums to replace the 2 deeps.


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## mrspock (Feb 1, 2010)

Fishman43 said:


> I know there is likely to be many schools of thought on this so please feel free to provide your thoughts good or bad, I can't learn and make a choice without knowing as much as possible.
> 
> Thank you!


I went through this a few years ago as well. In true beekeeping style, everyone whose not done it says it's "not a good idea". I don't see it myself.

One of the ways around this is to put the bees initially into a deep, and accommodate growth with mediums. Overwinter with 1 deep, 2 mediums. In the spring, the bees will have eaten their way up, and you can just remove the medium from the bottom and trade it for some beer, getting it out of your setup.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Whatever works best for you. It shouldn't matter to anyone else.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Mr. Spock that is a good idea for cycling out the deep box. I had hoped to not need to buy the extra equipment (2 deeps and frames/foundation) if it wasn't needed, but I guess the added cost isn't much when I think about the fact I will be getting nucs with five deep frames each (so only need a few frames and foundation) and the extra existing brood space they will already hold...


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Whatever works best for you. It shouldn't matter to anyone else.


Ditto what Mark said. 

"ya can't please ever'body so...ya gotta please yourself!"

I'm a newbee just starting out and after probably *way* too much studying I'm going with all 8-frame mediums for my apiary. I understand that the weight of the supers aren't an issue...right now. Later, as the body begins to loose it's "I can do anything" ability (not knocking that, but there comes a day...) the lighter weight boxes will be nice. That time comes possibly with age, possibly in a split second when you bend over to tie your shoes one day, or maybe it never comes. But, for most of us, our physical strength tends to begin to lessen at some point in our life. We trade out strength for smarts....we like to think of it that way! 

Best wishes and have fun!
Ed


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Fishman43 said:


> Mr. Spock that is a good idea for cycling out the deep box. I had hoped to not need to buy the extra equipment (2 deeps and frames/foundation) if it wasn't needed, but I guess the added cost isn't much when I think about the fact I will be getting nucs with five deep frames each (so only need a few frames and foundation) and the extra existing brood space they will already hold...


Hmm, and you might can use those deeps for swarm traps later on. 

Ed


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Is there a problem with starting bees in a med? I already understand that opinions vary and am interested in all sides. mainly for education.

I have started building my longstroth hive and from all the information I have read or seen so far had decided to make 2 deep bodies and 3 med supers. may have a couple of hives in there for this area. It is all free except for the time so not a big waste if I made a choice that I will only change later. I don't have a lot to go on so far in making choices so am pretty much geared up to realize I made mistakes.

Having all one size boxes makes since to me but not deeps. I am not concerned with efficiency in handling honey since that is not my focus. I see little or no need for myself to have to heft the extra weight. plus I am not sure my back can get away with it anyway.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Is there a problem with starting bees in a med? I already understand that opinions vary and am interested in all sides. mainly for education.


Daniel, this is the very question I started with.


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## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

Some people make the decision based on two points:
1. One size box and frame for everything
2. How long you want to keep bees and you back healthy.

Suggest read www.bushfarms.com on the subject.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I did deeps and shallows for 26 years or so. I did all deeps for a couple of years. I did all 10 frame mediums for a while and finally went to all eight frame mediums. I have never regretted going to all eight frame mediums. I think I gave them all a fair trial.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Michael has put together an amazing amount of information. Just taking a moment to recognize him specifically and express my appreciation for the work you have done Michael.

His write up on Easier to work hives is good. I had not thought of reducing to 8 frame as well until this morning. I saw another comment on a different thread that said bees do better in 8 frame equipment. It is not to late for me to make that change if necessary.

Does anyone have the particulars as to why Bees would do better with 8 frames? or at least why some think they do. It's pretty obvious why the keeper is better off. Right off the bat I would suspect it has to do with bees wanting to move up and down rather than side to side.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Daniel Y said:


> Does anyone have the particulars as to why Bees would do better with 8 frames? or at least why some think they do. It's pretty obvious why the keeper is better off. Right off the bat I would suspect it has to do with bees wanting to move up and down rather than side to side.


I'd be careful putting too much into "bees wanting to . . ." Bees want to do what they do naturally. Naturally, I've seen bees build combs very narrow and tall(deep, like several feet) and only a few of these in a row, and I've seen comb 10" wide by 6" deep built into a roof soffit many combs in a row. Who says bees do better with 8 frames?


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Mediums have the advantage of keeping your varietal honey's separated for extraction.
I made up a number of the mediums to serve my nuc customers last year and for 2012.
A queen right medium is a great way to super over or under a full depth dead out too.
Or, to make divides.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Here's how it works for me. When I started, I got some great advice to use all the same size boxes. I can only imagine it makes things easier. I don't have to worry about where the bees are vertically in the hive or for splitting or combining. They're always in the same size frames.

That being said, I started out with 10 frame deeps. I have found a few problems with ten frame deeps even though they are about the most efficient when it comes to a dollars per square inch of comb ratio. Firstly, I have a lot of problems with the foundation folding or becoming wavy at the bottom. I tried trimming the bottom of the foundation, but it still happens between the last two wires. I don't like it. Plus, they are heavy. With a larger frame, there is also a greater propensity for being crooked.

After talking with Michael and seeing his hives, I decided to switch to 10 frame mediums. Deep boxes can be trimmed easily enough and I'm slowly selling all my deep frames as nucs. It will take a while though. As a side note, many extractors can take twice as many medium frames as deeps. I have a 9/18. That means I can extract about 50% more honey per cycle.

Mediums are a good idea, and don't worry about starting with nucs of deep frames. You can start the hive with two mediums stacked up and place the deep frames in the top box hanging down to the bottom box. As the bees expand outward, you can move the deep frames outward until they can be removed. I had to do essentially the same thing with my first nuc which was a medium.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Michael B, thank you for the reply. Your website and discusion on box size as well as very early spring brood management is what led me down the road of exploring checkerboarding/nectar management and your similar spring manipulation. Would you mind telling me/us why you use 8 frame boxes over 10's? What about 10 frame boxes with 9 frame spacers?

Solomon, thank you very much! That is a clear and consise description of an easy way to use the deep frames from a nuc in medium frame boxes!!!


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## Slow Modem (Oct 6, 2011)

Intheswamp said:


> That time comes possibly with age, possibly in a split second when you bend over to tie your shoes one day


When you least expect it. Right out of the blue. Outta nowhere. I can vouch for that.


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## HiveJockey (Apr 30, 2011)

Intheswamp said:


> Hmm, and you might can use those deeps for swarm traps later on.
> 
> Ed


An empty deep makes a fine frame stand during inspections too.


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## pascopol (Apr 23, 2009)

Fishman43 said:


> I know there is likely to be many schools of thought on this so please feel free to provide your thoughts good or bad, I can't learn and make a choice without knowing as much as possible.
> 
> I will be starting with bees in the spring and have been thinking I would standardize on all medium 10 frame boxes. .... I started contacting a few nuc suppliers to ask about the availabilty of medium frame nucs, now I am hearing from them that all mediums aren't a good idea and I would like to hear other thoughts.....
> 
> Thank you!


I am a new bee too. Do not get too serious with any particular beekeeping ideas.

I was going to "standardize" my equipment from the start under an influence of some books and forums, but due to availability of starting stock (bees, nucs etc) I finished up with a few hives both deeps and mediums. I do not regret it, I am going to find out how it works for me. I did not make an investment of thousands of dollars, so whatever happen will be a enjoyable and learning experience.

If you want to start with nucs, there is limited availability of medium nucs, besides 5 frame deep nuc is a better deal than 5 frames medium nuc since it will contain more brood and bees, for the same price. Likely 5 frame mediums may be priced higher than 5 frame deeps due to limited availability.

From my perspective after 1 year experience of a newbee my take is this:

Why don't you try both sizes and find out what works best for you?

With only a few hives to start weather if you buy or make your own equipment what difference is going to make financially?

This "all standarized " equipment mantra came either from commercial beeks, or from the beeks who think they are a commercial beeks, but in real life they are not.

Commercial beeks handling hundreds or thousands hives need to "standarize" for obvious reasons, cutting cost and making profit or they are out of bee business.

A new hobby beek needs not to "standarize", from the get go, what the heck for???? He or she needs to learn, have fun, and find out what works best for particular situation, location, climate etc.

I run now 8 frames deeps, 8 frames mediums and I am seriously considering trying 3/4 (7 5/8 boxes).

Some commercial and I think smart beeks swear by them, they are a compromise between the 2 most popular sizes. If that works for me I am going to "standarize" with all 3/4 supers since they seem to be a perfect compromise/balance for both weight, size of broodnest, and easy extraction of honey.

I know, many will say this is an "odd" size, when you have to sell... etc bla bla bla.

Well I do not give a crap about "reselling value" since I am a hobby beek, I do not have to turn profit, I will likely never keep more than 10 hives anyway, and I keep my bees for personal enjoyment and some great tasting honey.

That's some ideas to consider for a new bee whatever they are worth.


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## VolunteerK9 (Aug 19, 2011)

I too, started out with all mediums and now have a variety of all mediums and deep/shallows. I tend to be a little split happy in the Spring so I will tell ya that a 10 frame deep/shallow combo is a heckuva lot easier to find the queen in than digging through the 30-40 frames of a 3-4 medium hive. Like mentioned above, try both styles and see what ya like, but as for me Im going to move away from the 'all medium' style of keeping.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I have done mediums and deeps and combinations of both. In northern climates like where I started in VT I like Deeps and have even considered going Dadant deep or deep and a half. For wintering purposes I find it better for the bees to have as much continuous comb as possible. There are times that a cluster cannot, or will not, cross the 3/8th gap between boxes and if they don't, they starve. 

A deeper frame gives them more stores to access until they get a day that it is warm enough to cross the gap. 

lots of people have varying opinions on this. But Langstroth and Dadant carefully calculated the required space needed for the best possible outcome in a brood box... Dadant was a couple of inches more generous. The bees they kept where a different animal from what they have become today... they have been selectively bred for larger brood nests and bigger hives... I think if they were doing their work now days, deeps would even be deeper. Keep in mind that their intention was for there to be only one brood box and it had to be of a volume that would be adequate for the brood nest... One brood box for bees of today is not enough space. so making that space even smaller makes less sense.


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## Bodo (Mar 11, 2008)

Ya'll have given me much to ponder. I just started assembling my wooden ware for my first two hives All mediums.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

pascopol said:


> This "all standarized " equipment mantra came either from commercial beeks, or from the beeks who think they are a commercial beeks, but in real life they are not.


False. This comes from commercial beekeepers who have been keeping bees for many years and hobbyist beekeepers who have been keeping bees for many years and who have plenty of experience in knowing what they are talking about. No longtime hobbyist or sideliner has any delusions as to which they are. Keep that in mind.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

bluegrass said:


> One brood box for bees of today is not enough space. so making that space even smaller makes less sense.


To what are you referring here? Are you suggesting that one medium be used as the only brood box?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

With deeps they sometimes hesitate to cross between boxes. With mediums there is no hesitation.


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

Without a lot of experience, other than having to deal with a bunch of different size frames - if the consensus is that the bees don't care - you sure will when trying to deal with it. I started traditional with brood deeps & I am constantly juggling either where to store them, introduce them or if I have enough mediums to fill out a box - The point being you're not going to be running more than 1, rarely 2 deeps on a hive, everthing else will be mediums or supers which might be 3, 4, 7+ high.

My brood does well in the deeps, but what a pain to deal with - I haven't been into the bottom deep of my big hive since spring & have no idea what's going on there, other than they are huge, happy and gave me 60+ lbs of honey this year.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

Mediums are great. They are standard and they stack up well. The nice thing about deeps is that more often than not you will find your queen in the deep box than anywhere else. I do medium on the bottom, then deep, then as many mediums as needed on the top. If you are following Walt's recomendations, then he suggests a deep and shallows. 

It was brought up before, deeps are very cost effective. I think the bee space between two deeps is more than bee space between two mediums. Just look at the frame depth and box depth and you'll see it is much more than with mediums. So staking mediums on top of deeps keeps the bee space much smaller than going deep upon deep upon deep, which of course helps with winter migration up to the top of the hive for honey consumption. 

Walt also mentions that a deep full of brood and pollen is not nearly as heavy as a deep full of honey, so, you are unlikely to break your back. The only time it is full of honey is in the winter/fall, which is not really the time when you do too many inspections.

If you ever need to overwinter two queens, a solid separator in the middle of the deep with let you keep two queens. I doubt you coud do that with a split medium, although mediums could always be stacked with a solid floor separator to overwinter with one queen per box.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Solomon Parker said:


> To what are you referring here? Are you suggesting that one medium be used as the only brood box?


No, not at all... my point was that when todays hives were designed they were designed to have enough volume in the brood box that only one was needed. If anything we should be designing boxes larger rather then trying to go smaller. 

The heavier a box is in the fall, the happier I am... If I have to lift it with a forklift I am really happy.

People often forget that beekeeping is geographical... just because something works in one area in the country does not make it the best practice in another, what bees do down south is very different from what they do up north.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

On the first point, the purpose of a Modern hive is maneuverability. A monster like a Darant deep starts to limit that.

On the last point, exactly how different is what the bees do down south than uP north? Certainly it is not 'very different' especially since many many bees are exported to the north on a yearly basis. Now if you want to claim beekeepers do it differently in the north, that would be a different story, but still, the differences are ultimately quite limited.

The argument 'you don't understand because you don't live around here' doesn't hold in the slightest when it comes to beekeeping.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Thank you all for your replies and thoughts on standardizing on all one size box/frame. As I figured this has brought about a lot of discusion and differening opinions, it has given me a lot to think about... At this point I am still leaning towards standardizing on 10 frame mediums since several suggestions on dealing with deep nuc frames have been suggested, but time will tell as I get started on this adventure.

Thanks again!


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## stoffel64 (Sep 23, 2010)

I was in the same position last year and decided to go with 10 frame medium. I very glad that I did it. Things are just a little easier to handle. 
The bottom line for me, it is not a bad idea to go all medium. 
I have good comparison, me mentor uses all 10 frame deep. These boxes become very have quickly and I already pulled my back once 
when I was working with him.


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## suburbanrancher (Aug 5, 2011)

I'm replying simply because I'm new and I just went through both my hives extensively, down to the screened bottom board. 
I have 10-frame deeps and mediums (mostly because I inherited the equipment and some bees) but I can see the appeal of using all mediums. 
Yesterday I had to rearrange my weakest hive to give them all capped honey frames and if I was running all mediums I could have done that much more easily for both me and the bees. As it is, I had to shuffle the 2 deeps I had them in and put the medium on top. All I can say is if it was all mediums it would have been easier. 
That said, I'm running 2 deeps and a medium for each hive and I don't plan to change it. When I need to get down into the bottom deep, I use an empty deep as my "frame holder" to make the hive lighter for me.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Solomon Parker said:


> On the last point, exactly how different is what the bees do down south than uP north? Certainly it is not 'very different' especially since many many bees are exported to the north on a yearly basis. Now if you want to claim beekeepers do it differently in the north, that would be a different story, but still, the differences are ultimately quite limited.


Up North;
They spend no time propolising Small Hive Beatles into every corner. I would deffinately not suggest a northern beek invest in SHB traps or ground drenches.

Brood rearing completely shuts down by early/mid October, so I would not recommend that a northern beek follows the southern time table for treating for mites, it can be done much earlier here. 

I would also not recommend that a northern beek try and feed syrup all winter, it will just freeze solid, feed early and take it off before the freeze.

Drones are not mature until about the last week of June so I don't recommend grafting queen cells in April.

If I sit here long enough, the list could be endless.


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## iahawk (May 19, 2009)

I've used 3 mediums, 10 frames, and even with this size it can be a load lifting that full box off the top of a stack, particularly since I have them sitting on boards across concrete blocks, which places the honey super, and I use mediums for that as well, 4 high on the stack. If you are new to beekeeping, remember that you aren't just lifting a 60 pound dead weight--you're lifting 60 pounds filled with thousands of living, buzzing things, which can be pretty daunting to some. That said, starting again, I'd seriously consider the 8 frame box. My only other concern with the mediums is, as was mentioned earlier, having more frames to search through when doing an inspection than you would have with 2 deeps. You have to have a plan for where you will set each box as you remove it to do an inspection so you're not setting boxes down in the grass/weeds but you can work out a system. Good luck, and welcome to the ranks.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

bluegrass said:


> Up North;...


So you're saying it's the timing that's the difference?

I believe that.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Thanks all! I could start a new thread, but since it has been mentioned here several times I will ask. Is there any benefit (other than lifting weight) of using 8 frame boxes, I.e. do bees use 8 frame boxes better, etc?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

If you are in a windy location 8 frame boxes are more likely to blow over if stacked high.

8 frame boxes have to be stacked higher, meaning more equipment is needed for the same size colony in a 10 frame hive.

Some bees will never fill the outer frames of a 10 frame box, in 8 frame they are more likely to use the outer frames.

Clusters are usually round... a narrower box makes it harder for them to maintain a round shape.


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## jadell (Jun 19, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> Clusters are usually round... a narrower box makes it harder for them to maintain a round shape.


 Why would this be a problem if the beespace is the same?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I've heard anecdotal evidence that frames are all filled out better in 8-frame hives.

I haven't seen any hives with clusters big enough to be hindered by the walls unless they're in nucs.


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## dkvello (Apr 2, 2010)

Fishman43 said:


> Thanks all! I could start a new thread, but since it has been mentioned here several times I will ask. Is there any benefit (other than lifting weight) of using 8 frame boxes, I.e. do bees use 8 frame boxes better, etc?


Fishman- one school of thought is the 8 fame medium does well because it is closer to the bees natrual nest cavity, tree hollows. They tend to build them out edge to edge better, without having to swap frames from the #1 and #10 postion towards the middle to get the bees to draw them out, which is the case with 10 frame deeps. I am moving that direction my self, as I Nuc out my deeps. Good luck, take everything you read hear with a grain of salt, but read read read.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

I understand that in a perfect situation that bees will form more or less a round cluster. But, there's many a colony that apparently does good in sofits, wall cavities (3-1/2"), floor/ceiling spaces, etc.,. The bees seem to adapt quiet well. I would think that an 8-frame footprint would be plenty for them to utilize.

Ed


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## pascopol (Apr 23, 2009)

dkvello said:


> Fishman- one school of thought is the 8 fame medium does well because it..... Good luck, take everything you read hear with a grain of salt, but read read read.


Read, experiment, use your brain power and draw your own conclusions based on what you read and on YOUR EXPERIENCE.

Do not "read" into too much theory or other people extreme opinions, that may confuse you and throw you off the track.

I did pursue other agricultural venues in my life, however beekeeping is the most complex and controversial of all of them, as they say ask 10 beeks and you are going to get 11 different answers.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Intheswamp said:


> I understand that in a perfect situation that bees will form more or less a round cluster. But, there's many a colony that apparently does good in sofits, wall cavities (3-1/2"), floor/ceiling spaces, etc.,. The bees seem to adapt quiet well. I would think that an 8-frame footprint would be plenty for them to utilize.
> 
> Ed


If you ever observed a cluster in the winter the bees on the outside rotate positions with the bees on the inside... Harder to do if the cluster is oblong instead of round.

It is easier for bees to winter in the structure of a house because of the warm side that exists in that situation. If you have ever done removals in early spring you would notice the brood is always on the comb closest to the warm side of the colony.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Standardisation can be good for a hobbyist too though.

For example when I'm looking at someones hive and there is an obvious problem, such as it's going to swarm, they ask me to sort it, but the brood nest is a deep, and a medium.

So other than reverse whole boxes, the options available are limited and it may be impossible to do a good job of the swarm control. The brood nest can not be fully rearranged to prevent swarming.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

As our winter eucalyptus flow is starting, I was removing excess honey from hives to prevent honey clogged brood chambers. It sure was easiest in my one brood chamber 10 and 12 frame boxes with 11 1/4" deep frames. Open the lid, spot from the top how and where I see capped honey, pull it out. No multiple layers of boxes to look through. This was about 48 jumbo frames with lots of honey from about 20 hives that the bees have no need for this winter. While you folks might tout the advantages of shallower frames for brood chambers, I in my 32 years experience with 11 1/4" deep frames brood chambers continue to find them to my liking. But of course, I have never run medium frame brood chambers. And I have these mounted on trailers so I don't have to move single hives. And I have an extractor that will fit them.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

There will be at least as many ways to set up hives are there are beekeepers! Using all mediums will work very well for many people in the center of the country, I think, due to the similar weather and honey flow conditions, but in other places, different configurations may be a real advantage. 

As for the difference between "northern" and "southern" beekeeping, north of about where I am (Ohio River in Indiana), there is an extended dearth from mid October here and ranging up to late September in the "Great White North" and lasting until March or April, maybe even May, unlike conditions in the more southern (or indeed, Northwestern) areas where hard frosts are later and Spring comes much earlier. From here north the bees must have enough stores to last for three or more months of conditions where it is too cold to fly most days, and will need to start spring buildup before they are able to forage very well. In the "sunny south" not only are the temperatures higher, but there is forage both later and earlier (depending on climate), so less wintering stress. 

Altitude also plays a role here -- just look at the USDA growing range maps for frost dates, etc.

At least one deep is a great advantage under these conditions because the bees can stay there most of the winter. Complicates things like checkerboarding, etc, though.

I can also see much different handling in areas a that are mostly frost free, as the bees will be foraging all year.

Bottom line: Try all mediums and see how it works for you. Easy enough to try a hive or two in different configurations if you want, especially if you only have a few, and see how it works. Certainly, mediums full of honey are much lighter than deeps full of honey, and shallows are lighter yet, which is why my brother and I use shallows (both of us have intermittent back problems). Since we only have a few hives, and don't plan to expand beyond that much, we are happy. Our friend who got us into this hobby has a dozen or so hives, uses two deeps and shallow supers, and is quite happy. 

Going commercial is a completely different issue than hobby beekeeping, and I would figure out what I wanted for hive configuration first! 

Peter


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Odfrank:

I was just trying to remember who on here was running the extra deep 12 frame boxes... Thanks for posting...

have any other pictures to share?


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Really haven't heard heard anyone who's tried all med say they didn't like it, & switched back to a double deep configuration. 
Anyone?

Last spring one of the bee magazines had an article claiming 8 frame hives had a faster spring build up, than 10 frame hives. Don't remember the specifics.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

KQ6AR said:


> Really haven't heard heard anyone who's tried all med say they didn't like it, & switched back to a double deep configuration.
> Anyone?


See my original post in this thread. A few years ago while in KY I switched to all mediums, my winter losses increased so last year I sold off all my 8 frame medium equipment and went back to 10 frame deeps. What I found with my losses is that my clusters would be in 1 box, stores above them and they did not cross the space between the boxes for what ever reason, you will experiencethis same phenomenon with deeps, but less frequently because there are less spaces between boxes.

The conclusion I drew was that the cluster started out large in the lower two medium boxes and covered the gap between boxes, as the winter went on and the cluster size shrank, the cluster would fit into only one box and then they would be reluctant to move from the 2nd box and into the third and then they starve out.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Thanks, I must of missed it.
Don't think that would be an issue in my climate.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

KQ6AR said:


> Don't think that would be an issue in my climate.


I absolutely agree.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

I vote with VolunteerK9 and bluegrass. Their observations agree with my own. When I started, bought hives from beekeepers who couldn't cope with the then new mites - all kinds of configurations. Learned quite early that I didn't like the effects of mediums used in the brood nest area. That eventually pushed me toward the single deep and all shallows. With that config. brood is located in the basic deep - year round. An asset in many ways.

Walt


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## SERGE (Sep 14, 2010)

wcubed said:


> That eventually pushed me toward the single deep and all shallows...


Hello Walt,
For your shallows do you use the Shallow 5 3/4" box size or the Extra Shallow 4 ¾" size?
Thanks
Serge


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

wcubed said:


> Learned quite early that I didn't like the effects of mediums used in the brood nest area.


Could you expound on your observations?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>See my original post in this thread. A few years ago while in KY I switched to all mediums, my winter losses increased

I had the opposite experience.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Slow Modem said:


> When you least expect it. Right out of the blue. Outta nowhere. I can vouch for that.


Or when a ladder falls out from under you - about a month ago. Used to think maybe ten frames would have been better because of more standard feeders and whatnot. I don't think that now though. Never have regetted all mediums.


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

I would not sell off the deeps if you decide to go to all meds, but save some cash and cut the deeps down to meds.
Unless you want to sell them to me for cheap?....so I can cut them down to all 7 5/8" boxes instead of meds!


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

I had a mix of both deeps and mediums, for ease of standardizing and price , I just sold my mediums and went with all deeps. I lost bees over winter in both setups.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

S. P...expound on your obsevations?
NOT ignored - Other obligations.
In the past, we have mostly abstained on this subject in deference to Mr. Bush's opinion. He does so much good on these forums helping beginners with practical info that it didn't seem appropriate to offer advice to the contrary. But he understands difference of opinion. He has his reasons and I have mine. Beekeeping is mostly opinion.

The point has been made by others that our bees have natural instincts based on continuous comb from the top down. A break in comb vertically causes a work-around. Often, the colony uses the break in comb as a dividing line between comb content, such as between brood and stores. The work-arounds are often quite subtle and not noticed by the beekeeper, but they are always available if you look for them.

Incidentally, it's not the 3/8 inch of air space noted above. With wood frames, the top bar and bottom bar contribute to the break in functional comb between boxes. About an inch and a half. And if you find cordwood drone brood between frames in late winter, It's more than that. Some plastic frames are less than the 1 1/2. But in any case, the break in functional comb is a minor problem for the bees.

As noted by others, bees are adaptable to almost any type cavity. They make the best of their circumstance, but that does not mean that the lang hive is ideal. Those odd-shaped cavities are filled with continuous comb and the colony can move smoothly up or down (or laterally) with brood in direct contact with stores above and below. That's the way it works in the tree hollow.

Mr Bush noted above that colony reservations about the gap can be seen with the single break between double deeps. That's true. How many threads have you seen this fall where the beginner is unsure what action to take in his case of cluster in the top box and an empty lower deep?

Another observation that influences my choice of winter config is a colony preference. Both obscure and subjective, we havn't made much noise about it, but coupled with the colony resevations about the gap in functional comb above, it's part of the picture.

The colony much prefers to rear brood in a deep when its a choice between a deep and a shallow. ( 6" model) The preference is not as severe for the medium. Don't ask me why - don't always understand what I see. The medium is seen by the colony as almost as good as a deep for brood, but introduces more gaps per given brood volume, and I shoot for max brood volume. More bees make more honey.

The box size has little effect in the spring buildup. The colony driven by the reproductive urge has no problem with the gap when expanding the brood nest. The medium boxes do tend to give them some problem in the broodnest reduction phase - more gaps to negotiate. They are less likely to be pushed back down to the bottom by incoming nectar at the top. Have seen that in postings here also.

Additionally, growing the broodnest into mediums tends to cause the brood nest to "climb." That is, Adding excessive pollen below the brood which tends to leave the brood nest somewhat higher in the stack than where it started.

If you all-medium folks never see any of these indications, we could conclude that my flow patterns and seasons are unique.

Walt


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

wcubed said:


> ...
> In the past, we have mostly abstained on this subject in deference to Mr. Bush's opinion. He does so much good on these forums helping beginners with practical info that it didn't seem appropriate to offer advice to the contrary. But he understands difference of opinion. He has his reasons and I have mine. Beekeeping is mostly opinion...
> 
> Walt


Walt, 

True. A lot of what people use as a management technique or approach in beekeeping is a matter of perspective, preference or opinion.

But I'd hate to think you (and others) are holding back those opinions in an attempt to defer to just one or two forum members. Michael Bush has always impressed my with his ability to defend his own preferences in the face of opposition, without ever getting personal about it. He can speak for himself, but I doubt that he really feels the need to be protected from opposition. I find some of the most valuable information comes from reading the conversations between oppositional views - provided that opposition stays respectful and doesn't descend into adolescent argument.

Discussion groups can slide into a dominant opinion or "groupthink" on things, and in my opinion, that weakens the whole thing. Yet it happens all too often.

I have listened to many over the last couple of years, who have complained about the dominant opinion of one discussion forum or another, and how that led them to take up "residence" in this or that other forum. In the end, they are all weaker for it. 

I put most of my bee-forum activity on this site, because - at present - it seems to have the largest number of different perspectives being represented.

So I'm glad you decided to through your two cents in on this topic, Walt. It gives the rest of us a richer set of options to consider.

At least, that's my opinion...

Adam


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

wcubed said:


> If you all-medium folks never see any of these indications, we could conclude that my flow patterns and seasons are unique.


Hi Walt -

I will say that I have noticed a difference in how the bees treat deeps compared to mediums. I believe they favor the larger combs, but I have still chosen to use all mediums to fit my needs. They have been able to adapt to this. I gave my deeps to my daughter and we both started package bees this spring. Her bees expanded much faster than mine did.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Mr. Wright - I caught 2 of your sessions recently at the TN conference, and I would like to thank you for taking the time and making the effort to share your knowledge.

I've used all mediums since I started 3 years ago, and I believe that what you are saying is probably true - I've seen other people's deep hives build up faster and bigger than mine. 

On the other hand, my bees have been pretty productive of honey anyway, and having all mediums has sure been helpful as I have expanded my apiary and dabbled in queen rearing.

I guess Mr. Bush is correct with his tag line - everything works if you let it.


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## pascopol (Apr 23, 2009)

Great last few posts guys. Presented with deep inside beekeeping knowledge and respect for others opinions.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Walt, thanks for your view and your experience. I'm planning a switch to mediums myself and I am interested in others' views. 

I don't see any flaws in your logic, one of my reasons for switching (beside the weight naturally) is that I have problems keeping the comb from becoming wavy as it sags in the frame. I have even gone so far as trimming the bottom of the foundation before installation and that helped, but still the problem.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Hobbyist beekeepers face a different set of preferences and needs than commercial or sideliners. A hobbyist, like myself, with 10 or less hives has less room for flexibility in their management due to limited equipment inventory and a somewhat fixed number of hives maintained. The main reason I switched from deeps to mediums was the aggravation of unsuccessful swarm control when using deep brood boxes. 

When managing colonies with a double deep set up along with medium or shallow supers, your hands are tied in spring swarm control. If the colony begins to backfill the broodnest with nectar, and you know that swarm cells will be next, what do you do with the backfilled deep frames? There is nowhere to move them to, and no empty deep frames to replace them with. You can add as many supers as you want, but if they start to backfill the brood nest area there is nothing you can do to stop or slow their impulse to swarm.

With an all medium set up I can simply move those partially backfilled frames up into a super above and move empty frames down into the brood nest. It's made my swarm control manipulations much more simple and straightforward and allows me to maintain consistent colony numbers that I'm comfortable with. 

There are some cons to the all medium approach. More frames to deal with during inspections and the extra cost associated with them, and as Walt explained, the colonies seems to develop better on deep frames. But for me the trade off is still worth it ... colonies that swarm won't give you nearly as much honey and constant swarming can be very discouraging to the beekeeper.


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## pascopol (Apr 23, 2009)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Hobbyist beekeepers face a different set of preferences and needs than commercial or sideliners. A hobbyist, like myself, with 10 or less hives has less room for flexibility in their management due to limited equipment inventory and a somewhat fixed number of hives maintained. The main reason I switched from deeps to mediums was the aggravation of unsuccessful swarm control when using deep brood boxes.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Valid point - hobbyist lack of flexibility due to limited inventory, but there is more cons to all medium approach facing new beek.

Nobody seems to address the problem of early growth by a new hobbyist beek using only all medium approach.

I started with one medium hive and immediately faced a dilemma after I wanted to get another colony or nuc. 
The only available were 5 frame deep nucs, and some (often sweet) deals on colonies housed in deep bodies.

So until a new beek grows enough to make own splits, there is a limited way for expansion due to lack of bees nested in medium supers.

So much for starting with all mediums.

Easier said than done.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

pascopol said:


> So until a new beek grows enough to make own splits, there is a limited way for expansion due to lack of bees nested in medium supers.


Good point. I've run into that situation myself. For someone just getting started the easiest way to expand using all mediums would be to purchase packages, they can be introduced to any size equipment. With deep frames being the standard with most nucs it does present additional considerations and effort to convert. I still keep some deep equipment around. They come in handy for large swarms and work well for pollination or comb honey set ups.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

How fast do you want to grow? I started with a single package in May of 2009 and other than a few queens purchased for genetic diversity I haven't bought any more bees - or caught swarms other than one of my own. I'm going into this winter with 25 colonies - 11 big ones - 9 "juniors" - 4 nucs - and a lonely top bar hive. And I harvested over a hundred quarts of honey this year.

I could have grown more, but I've spent enough money on equipment for now - and it's about as much work at this point as I have time for.

Nervous going into winter though - but I think that's just part of it.


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Solomon Parker said:


> ...Mediums are a good idea, and don't worry about starting with nucs of deep frames. You can start the hive with two mediums stacked up and place the deep frames in the top box hanging down to the bottom box. As the bees expand outward, you can move the deep frames outward until they can be removed. I had to do essentially the same thing with my first nuc which was a medium.


This was covered early in this thread about atarting nucs in mediums.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

....Yeah, I'm one who covered it. Why go back 54 posts to to point out that I already covered something I covered 54 posts ago?


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Mike G: 
You make a point that I think is often overlooked. The double deep is one of the toughest overwintering configs to stop swarming. The basic reason is that the colony seems to see the top of their overwintered capped honey as the top of their residence cavity. (That would be true in the tree hollow.) Adding an empty super of drawn comb above the double deep doesn't discourage them much. Most will ignore it - they are working to the top of the capped honey - that's their ceiling. In some cases, there will not even be bees in the added super with crowded bees in the DD. Rare, but it happens.
And we see beginners starting out by getting 2 deeps filled in the first season, not aware of problems they are making for the future.
While here, let me add a note on the 8 vs 10 frame thing. If I were starting over, I would go with 8 frames. Still have a lot of 10 frame wooden ware in the loft, and would use that first because it's paid for, but I think there is reason to believe the bees would be more comfortable in 8 frame boxes. For a minute, forget the weight considerations.
...When you find a colony building comb on a flat surface, like an open porch ceiling, the in-line comb is much longer than the side to side comb width. Maybe 3 to 1 longways.
...The colony in establishment usually fill three or four frames end to end before they build comb on adjacent frames equaling half the frame length.
...You can see their preference for adding comb in-line in the colony first year establishment. They fill a frame end to end well before they add much comb in adjacent frames.
Conclusion:
Colony engineers "know" how much weight can be suspended from the top attach point. As determined by eons of trial and error. The long in-line combs of the porch ceiling above only hang down less that a foot, at most. They keep building in-line looking for a wall to tie to for additional support. In the tree hollow, comb is attached continuously to the side wall on both sides. With that arrangement, they are comfortable with continuous comb of 3 feet or more - top to bottom.

I didn't understand the tree hollow analogy above - round cluster effect. In this area, late winter clusters are more boxy than round. If they have enough bees to cover 3 frames, the cluster conforms to that shape, and expansion is frame to frame, laterally - expanding the cluster in it's boxy shape.

Back to the 8 frame thing. If the colony naturally grows in-line with comb, I see no gain in forcing them to do otherwise. I avoid brood nest disturbance in all its forms. The colony only has so much energy to expend, and they have refined their ways and means to incorporate maximum efficiency. If you divert some of that energy to apply to something you feel is better, some element of their format is retarded.

Walt


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

This is such a tough decision for me. Every time I get set on mediums, I swing back to wondering again.

The fact is that all mediums is practically unheard of here, and I have already got 11 deep boxes piled up outside. Nucs are in deeps...

I'm totally set on 8's - but whether or not to convert all those deeps...Tough call.

Adam


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

sorry - accidental re-post.


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## NY_BLUES (May 14, 2009)

I have run all mediums, and i have run deeps and mediums, and I cant see any difference in them, other than standardized equipment. Anything you decide is up to you, and only you have to be happy with it. Either way is correct in my book.


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## wi_farmgirl (Dec 31, 2009)

I have used medium boxes with 8 frames from the start. It has worked great for the bees and me. 
They made it though my first winter, and hoping things go as well this winter. 

Michele


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

wi_farmgirl said:


> I have used medium boxes... It has worked great for the bees and me.
> They made it though my first winter,...


That's the most important thing, the bees survive either way you go. I would recommend the choice be based on beekeeper preference, what makes most sense to "you" in your situation. 



> Adam Foster Collins - I'm totally set on 8's - but whether or not to convert all those deeps...Tough call.


Give yourself a year to make your decision. Why plan on converting everything over right now? First try out a couple of colonies on all mediums next year, see what happens, and base your next move on the results. If it doesn't work out you can always use the boxes for honey supers.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

If you are on the fence about mediums or deeps, then just make 3 inch high box, which is the height difference between deep and medium. Place them under or over a medium and you'll be good to go. If you decide you want all mediumcs, cut the frames and remove the 3 inch insert, you have all medium setup. Secondly, if you decide to add sugar box later in the winter, well 3 inch box on top of the medium box is plenty to accomodate that without creating extra air space to heat. My 3 inch boxes now accomodate small pillows to keep the bees warm and to catch extra condensation.

I personally do medium for pollen, then deep on top, then mediums on top of that for honey. I have found the queen almost exclusively working in the deep, as Walt mentioned in his articles, which I find quite handy during inspections. In fact I would think she never left it was not for finding eggs in non-deep frames. I would go with shallows if shallow frames were proportionately cheaper than deeps. Certainly having most of your frames one size is a benefit, but if you have only one deep in your setup it rarely will need manipulations because the medium on top will act like a honey ceiling, so it will be pretty easy to manipulate that instead of deep frames below.

Aram


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

Solomon Parker said:


> ....Yeah, I'm one who covered it. Why go back 54 posts to to point out that I already covered something I covered 54 posts ago?


I went back because this question/comment was posted. If the information was already covered, why not go back and point it out.



Mike Gillmore said:


> Good point. I've run into that situation myself. For someone just getting started the easiest way to expand using all mediums would be to purchase packages, they can be introduced to any size equipment. With deep frames being the standard with most nucs it does present additional considerations and effort to convert. I still keep some deep equipment around. They come in handy for large swarms and work well for pollination or comb honey set ups.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Solomon Parker said:


> One of my reasons for switching (beside the weight naturally) is that I have problems keeping the comb from becoming wavy as it sags in the frame. I have even gone so far as trimming the bottom of the foundation before installation and that helped, but still the problem.


Why does wavy comb concern you? 
In my boxes the frames never change orientation or position, if there is a wave in one comb it is reflected in all the comb down the line. If real bad I have to pull two or three frames together and separate them outside box in order to keep from rolling bees, but that also isn't an issue for me. Then I return those frames they go back in the same position they came out of and in the same orientation. That way even with the wave bee space is never violated and they spend no resources reorganizing the box because I messed it up on them.

Walt: Thanks for your valuable post.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

AramF said:


> If you are on the fence about mediums or deeps, then just make 3 inch high box, which is the height difference between deep and medium. Place them under or over a medium and you'll be good to go. If you decide you want all mediumcs, cut the frames and remove the 3 inch insert, you have all medium setup.
> Aram


Did you get your start in Europe? The method you describe was popular in Europe and is known as "eke" beekeeping. It is considered obsolete now days, but I think it will regain in popularity in the future.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

bluegrass said:


> Why does wavy comb concern you?


 Like you said, when the bees build it, they make their own spacing. My frames do change position as I am always splitting and recombining and processing old comb. Having a couple of combs that have to stay in the same position in relation to each other is akin to having multiple sized frames among your equipment, and that's what this thread is all about anyway.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Solomon Parker said:


> Like you said, when the bees build it, they make their own spacing. My frames do change position as I am always splitting and recombining and processing old comb. Having a couple of combs that have to stay in the same position in relation to each other is akin to having multiple sized frames among your equipment, and that's what this thread is all about anyway.


Do you produce honey at all or are you more of a bee producer like MB?

Not directed at you, but just to explain something for the benefit of other readers:
I think of the inside of a beehive like a retail store. Everything has a department, isles and shelf. If the customers come in and pick something up in one department, and drop it in another, the staff have to spend time recollecting those items and placing them back where they belong.
That equates to higher overhead for the store because they have workers who are reorganizing instead of unloading trucks and stocking shelves... The unloading and stocking still needs to be done, so the store is forced to hire more people.

The inside of a beehive is the same.... If you move stuff around, labor is spent moving everything back to where it belongs, rather than feeding brood, unloading field bees and storing honey.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

bluegrass said:


> Do you produce honey at all or are you more of a bee producer like MB?


I've been producing honey, 13 gallons last year, but this year was a bad year and now I'm thinking of switching to nucs. Ultimately both, I'm a big hobbyist or small sideliner, once I reach equilibrium.


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## AramF (Sep 23, 2010)

Blue Grass,

Nope, did not start in Europe, mostly here, but do have a few eastern european beek freinds who insulate in the winter like there is no tomorrow. The 3 inch idea came to me independently, though it now appears I am not unique in thinking like that.


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