# Do you heat your honey before sale?



## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

we heat our retail honey to filter it and keep it from granulating. a large amount of people think granulation is a sign that it is spoiled. If the public was better educated it would result in a better product. cant see that happening in my lifetime. mean while we will heat and filter. before someone jumps on the filtering we use a fine nylon sold by dadants. after a while there is a buildup of pollen inside the tank so there is no relation to ultra filtered honey. just clean honey with a touch of pollen.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

If you are selling raw honey and want to avoid destroying the enzymes, you can warm the jars of honey in a pan of water or in a double boiler. I keep my burner on low and maintain a temperature of 100-110 degrees. This will return the crystals to liquid state without impacting the nutritional value of the honey. If it's not too crystallized you only need about 20-30 minutes, stirring it a time or two.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I had my last five buckets that I decided needed bottled. I set a space heater to 95 degrees and stacked the buckets in a box a recliner just came in. Two days and it had not a crystal in sight and was just right to run thru the gate. I have a 1500 watt thermostatically controlled power bar. I could have used it and the evil 100 watt bulb too.


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## RAK (May 2, 2010)

Many customers prefer no heating and don't mind the crystallization.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

I do not heat honey. It doesn't last long enough to crystallize.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't heat mine. I educate my customers instead. One taste and they are usually convinced.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I have a chest freezer that I use for many beekeeping tasks, and one is when I need to gently warm honey. I use a precision controller (Ranco Electronic Temperature Controller) to drive two 60 watt bulbs as the heat source. I also have a small box fan to provide circulation. Our spring honey simply doesn't crystallize and therefore is never heated, but the summer honey (cotton and soybean) crystallizes very quickly - particularly pure cotton honey. Not only does it crystallize quickly, but what results is very coarse and not appealing. Yes, I've tried all the techniques to make creamed honey, but cotton nectar is simply not well-suited for the task. The bottom line is that you'd have to be very persuasive to talk customers into buying naturally crystallized cotton honey.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Q: If you think consumers should be educated about crystalized honey, who should be doing it?

A: YOU!

Q: Does heating the honey to 110 impacting the "nutritional value" of the honey?

A: First, one has to define what that nutritional value is before one can determine if the nutritional value is impacted...anything else is just an old wives tale.

deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If one doesn't have direct customer interaction, perhaps sales and demand indicate what is generally wanted by honey consumers. This past year I have taken back more honey than ever before because it was crystallized or becoming so. On the other hand, a certain amount of demand for "raw" honey was expressed and asked for.

I, probably selling more than most on this Thread, offer for sale what I think people want and also try to service the special demand. So, yes, I do heat most of my honey. Not the Raw Honey, of course.

I have very few people ask me about the nutritional values of honey. Hardly any.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...my comment was referring to:


> If the public was better educated it would result in a better product. cant see that happening in my lifetime. mean while we will heat and filter.


In my best judgement, I agree with the above...I think that we would have a less good product if we liquified everything...so we educated our customers. I've always been more interested in the top end of the market (any market...I used to make $4k piccolos for a living), and I have no desire to do otherwise. For the customers that want to be able to read a newspaper through the jar of honey, they can be served by others.

deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Makes sense. There is room for all. I believe, like you, I have built the market here in the North Country. Find a need and fill it is one way. Set a standard and market it is another. I imagine you, Dean, are more of a businessman than I in some respects. You have found a mkt for the product you want to sell, which is good.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I have a small handout I attach to the jars explaining that the honey is partially crystallized, that this is raw honey, unheated and unfiltered. I recommend they not microwave it but put it in warm water to loosen it up. I also tell customers [verbally] that most honey sold in Europe is crystallized. Once they find out that it's normal and the taste is good I get many repeat customers. In fact I'm sold out until next year and I'm still getting calls wanting some.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

But, you do realize that not all crystallized honey is RAW, right? I would be lying were I to suggest to my customers, the store managers, that they raise the price and add a sign saying "It's Crystallizing Because It Is Raw".

I gave it out to my landowners for this years yd rent.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Correct, but unfiltered, unheated honey tends to crystallize faster in my experience, particularly fall honey.All my honey is raw honey. I don't filter or heat it past 100°F.


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

deknow said:


> ...For the customers that want to be able to read a newspaper through the jar of honey, they can be served by others.
> deknow


We up-package/market our product in glass muth jars with cork tops, fancy labeling in gift boxes to local speciality food shops (and to friends of friends of friends...) with a written enclosure explaining the benefits and reason for the cloudiness of our once-screened product (the recent exposure of Chinese honey on the market also helps). We also provide the same product in much less expensive packaging to the same for repeat or knowledgable patrons. The general widespread belief or knowledge about the benefits of locally produced honey is as much a factor in success as anything else.

Demand is such we could probably make a living, if we had the resources... but right now it's a way the wife stays involved in my hobby.

We just bulk (5 gallon buckets) heat/warm ours in warm water baths long enough to de-crystalize and increase flowability just prior to bottling.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

No, but then all of it is sold wholesale.

Crazy Roland


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## New Ky Beekeeper (Jun 27, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I, probably selling more than most on this Thread, offer for sale what I think people want and also try to service the special demand. So, yes, I do heat most of my honey. Not the Raw Honey, of course.
> 
> I have very few people ask me about the nutritional values of honey. Hardly any.


You speak, I listen. What temp do you bring your honey too and how long do you hold it there? I do have people ask me about the nutritional value of honey. I just tell them that over 30,000 hard working women eat that honey every winter...... Most understand. A few, no so much. 

Phil


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

deknow said:


> Q: Does heating the honey to 110 impacting the "nutritional value" of the honey?
> 
> A: First, one has to define what that nutritional value is before one can determine if the nutritional value is impacted...anything else is just an old wives tale.
> 
> deknow


The follow is a paragraph from the conclusions of a test conducted by the American Analytical Laboratories for the National Honey Board. High temperatures used in processing certainly have a negative impact on the enzyme content of the honey. I consider this a loss in nutritional value. If you review the tests results it appears that the overall negative effects of heating honey may be less than some claim it to be, but there is measurable loss.



> Enzymes
> Without a doubt, heating and filtering honey reduces the final quantity of enzymes in
> honey. Enzyme levels dropped an average of about 35% when heating and DE filtration was
> used. Enzyme levels dropped about 15% using heating and straining. Enzymes such as
> ...


http://www.honey.com/images/downloads/processed-versus-raw-honey.pdf

http://www.honey.com/nhb/technical/...-and-enzyme-levels-in-raw-and-processed-honey


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I am surprised that anyone buying commercial honey would dig that deep to inquire about the nutritional value of what they are getting. Most just assume. If you are not making your own you are really not that picky.
From what I have read 110 degrees is a fairly safe temperature as a max. It could easily get that hot in the hive or very close to it.
Also, the really educated consumer does not need an explanation of crystallized honey. Some look for it.


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## SWM (Nov 17, 2009)

Do you heat your honey before sale?

Yes, to about 135 degrees in a water bath, then drain the hot water and fill with cold water to bring the honey temperature down as quickly as possible. I've been doing this for years and find no degradation of flavor. And the flavor of honey, derived from each floral source, is what really makes honey unique. Heating gives the honey a longer shelf-life; not just on a store shelf but also in the home of the consumer. If it begins to crystallize, most people will either throw it away or liquefy it in a microwave...yikes! No way to control the temperature in a microwave.

Raw is such an ambiguous term...I've seen it defined as everything from straight out of the extractor, with no straining at all, to not heating over 120 degrees and everything in between. I'm reminded of what the late Richard Taylor had to say about this, and I'm paraphrasing: Describing honey as raw is like describing bananas as boneless...it just doesn't fit.

Enzymes? Yes, they are in trace amounts just like vitamins and minerals and and their nutritional value is sometimes exaggerated in my opinion.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

So it may or may not violate the honey laws in Florida and other emerging states.
5K-4.027 Standard of Identity – Honey.
(1) This standard applies to all honey produced by honey bees from nectar and covers all styles of honey presentation that are processed and ultimately intended for direct consumption and to all honey packed, processed or intended for sale in bulk containers as honey, that may be repacked for retail sale or for sale or use as an ingredient in other foods.
(2) “Honey” means the natural food product resulting from the harvest of nectar by honeybees and the natural activities of the honeybees in processing nectar. It consists essentially of different sugars, predominantly fructose and glucose as well as other substances such as organic acids, enzymes and solid particles derived from honey collection. The color of honey can vary from nearly colorless to dark brown. The consistency can be fluid, viscous or partially to completely crystallized. The flavor and aroma vary, but are derived from the plant’s origin.
(3) Honey sold as such shall not have added to it any food additives, as defined in Section 500.03(1)(m), F.S., nor shall any other additions be made other than honey. It shall not have begun to ferment or effervesce and no pollen or constituent unique to honey may be removed except where unavoidable in the removal of foreign matter. Chemical or biochemical treatments shall not be used to influence honey crystallization.
So if Mike's information is correct, it could be confiscated or fined in Florida.
"Enzymes
Without a doubt, heating and filtering honey reduces the final quantity of enzymes in
honey. Enzyme levels dropped an average of about 35% when heating and DE filtration was
used. Enzyme levels dropped about 15% using heating and straining. Enzymes such as
invertase were nearly completely eliminated by processing (average drop of 73%). Others,
such as phosphatase dropped about 13%."


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I have always heard you should heat it to around 150 degrees to destroy yeasts that can spoil it while it sits on the shelf. Does anyone actually do this?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Phil, I heat my honey to 150 degrees to strain it thru a nylon cloth. Then it cools over night usually and gets dumped into another tank for bottling, at 110 to 130. Both tanks are Maxant 300 lb/25 gallon Bottling Tanks which I put 4 buckets of honey into each time.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

SWM said:


> I'm reminded of what the late Richard Taylor had to say about this, and I'm paraphrasing: Describing honey as raw is like describing bananas as boneless...it just doesn't fit.


Richard didn't own an extractor, had a pocket knife for a hive tool and produced nothing but comb honey, if I recall correctly. So, by anyones' definition his honey was raw. Couldn't be anymore raw. Though I can imagine him not describing it as raw.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Paul McCarty said:


> I have always heard you should heat it to around 150 degrees to destroy yeasts that can spoil it while it sits on the shelf. Does anyone actually do this?


That isn't the right reason. Honey which isn't heated won't spoil.


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## NorthernIllinoisPlumber (Aug 17, 2010)

But will heating honey make it toxic, or spoil it?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

No, but the word "heating" is kinda vague. Excessive heat, meaning 160 for a period of time or higher for less time, will cause the sugars in honey to burn, caramelize.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>But will heating honey make it toxic, or spoil it? 

It will destroy the flavor.

It will destroy the enzymes.

It will build up HMF.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Duplicate


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> >But will heating honey make it toxic, or spoil it?
> 
> It will destroy the flavor.
> 
> ...


"will"? "Can" would be a better word, imo.


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## NorthernIllinoisPlumber (Aug 17, 2010)

Never heard of HMF, what is it? By caramelize, you mean burn?


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## SWM (Nov 17, 2009)

"Richard didn't own an extractor, had a pocket knife for a hive tool and produced nothing but comb honey, if I recall correctly. So, by anyones' definition his honey was raw. Couldn't be anymore raw. Though I can imagine him not describing it as raw."

Richard started producing only comb honey in the late 1970's. Prior to that he extracted tons of honey and his extracting set-up is described and illustrated in his book, 'The Joys of Beekeeping' (pages 146-147). He also talked about extracting and heating honey in his 'How-To-Do-It Book of Beekeeping'.

I don't have time right now to find his exact quote, might have been in one of his comb honey books but I can assure you that he said it. It stuck in my mind when I read it. Might have been from his 'Bee Talk' column in Bee Culture Magazine (Gleanings in Bee Culture) prior to that.

I agree that comb honey is the only honey that is completely raw (I still don't like the term either). We (myself included) extract it from the comb to make it more convenient to use, but we compromise it slightly when we do. There is nothing that compares to good quality comb honey.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

NorthernIllinoisPlumber said:


> By caramelize, you mean burn?


As I said. 'cept I wrote "caramelize, burn.".


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>"will"? "Can" would be a better word, imo. 

It will destroy the flavor. How much may depend on how hot, but if it is heated it will not taste the same.

It will destroy the enzymes. They are destroyed at very low temperatures.

It will build up HMF. How much may depend on how hot. But it will build up HMF if it's heated at all.

>Never heard of HMF, what is it? 

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesglossary.htm


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I guess it depends upon your definition of "destroy". To me destroy means put an end to the existence of something, which is probably not what you meant. I'd probably have chosen a different word. 

In all respect, I'd really like to see the references on how enzymes decay as a function of heat and duration. In the report posted earlier the heating and filtering were extreme (at least in my book) and although there was reduction in the enzymes they tested, I don't believe that I would say "destroyed". The data for supplier #2 showed an average 14.58% reduction in enzymes. That reduction resulted from heating and filtering as follows:

"Supplier #2 prepared its honey by heating it in a melting tank to 140 ⁰F for 15 hours. It
was then transferred to a settling tank for 8 hours at a temperature of 125 ⁰F. The honey was
filtering with DE at 175 ⁰F for 5 minutes and then placed in a hold tank for 24 hours at 130 ⁰F."

I can't speak to accuracy or validity of this particular study, which is why I'd like to see other references.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I vote Michael has it right on all counts...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxymethylfurfural
HMF can form in high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS), levels around 20 mg/kg HMF were found, increasing during storage or heating.[9] This is a problem for American beekeepers because they use HFCS as a source of sugar when there are not enough nectar sources to feed honeybees, and HMF is toxic to them. Adding bases such as soda ash or potash to neutralize the HFCS slows down the formation of HMF.[9]


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Enzymes are not destroyed or removed by heat. The correct term is _denatured, _which means they change structure (typically by unfolding) and are deactivated. When people say "destroy" enzymes it has a negative emotional connotation that is purposefully added to make it sound bad. 

Enzymes in honey have no real nutritional value. Your pancreas produces all the enzymes your body needs. It's not like eating more enzymes is going to do anything beneficial. The whole idea is as ridiculous as claiming that you shoud eat raw bone marrow because bone marrow produces blood cells and blood cells are essential for life.....


In the rare case that you are truely enzyme difficient, the tiny amount that you recieve in honey isnt going to help you anyway.


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## ycitybz (Jan 2, 2012)

I was taught by a long time beekeeper to allow your honey to sit in the holding tank for 7-10 days to allow air bubbles and other settiment to rise to the top. You then pour from there into the bottle you wish to sell.
He explained the honey would be clear and not cloudy looking and should last quite awhile before crystalyzing.
Hope this helps...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=96
Secondly, raw honey contains an enzyme called glucose oxidase that, when combined with water, produces hydrogen peroxide, a mild antiseptic. 

We could argue back and forth on the benefits of raw honey or we could just let MB's statement stand.

Heating breaks down, destroys, and makes useless enzymes in the honey. He didn’t qualify to what degree but I will take a guess that the hotter the more it will destroy and that goes for everything.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I am not saying that there are no benefits of eating raw honey, I am just saying the enzyme bit is a little far fetched. 

So glucose oxidase produces hydrogen peroxide, a mild antiseptic. BFD. Is ingesting antiseptic good for you or does it provide for better nutrition? I gargle with Scope in the morning and I am sure that some of it ends up in my stomach. Is that good too? What about the homebrew I drink? 5% alcohol is a mild antiseptic. Maybe I should consume more beer because it is healthy. 

I will agree that enzyme activity is dependant on time and temperature and follows an exponential response (just as most other chemical reactions).

As far as "destruction" versus "denature", sorry I am a stickler for the correct terminology. The properties of enzymes are shape dependent and when denatured, they unwind, unfold, flatten out or otherwise change shape. That is an important concept when discussing enzymes.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

....and generally when an enzyme is denatured,.its ability to act as an.enzyme is no longer one of its.properties. its.utility and usefulness as an enzyme.is.destroyed.
Deknow


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"I don't heat mine. I educate my customers instead. One taste and they are usually convinced. "

I have done the same. I actually find the discussion very interesting. I'm trying to speed-up the process of crystalisation by placing the jars on a cool concrete floor. I can't " produce" enough of it to keep up with demand. I have 12 US students and two faculty here at the moment and they love my honey. Many have never seen crystalised honey and about 50% have only tasted honey from a super market. I should do a better suvey!
Do you realise that I'm educating YOUR future customers!! For free!!


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Looked at a few articles. 

In this one: "INFLUENCE OF HEAT TREATMENT ON FORMATION OF HYDROXYMETHYLFURFURAL AND HYDROGEN PEROXIDE AS HEATING INDICATORS OF HONEY", you'll find the following statement: "Sensory evaluation of heated honey at 60ºC, 70ºC, 80ºC and 90ºC for 5 min. compared to unheated honey (control) was evaluated and the results are summarized in Table 4. Data shown in this table revealed no obvious differences in color, odor and taste of honey samples as a result of heat treatments."

In another article, "Inactivation of glucose oxidase during heat-treatment de-crystallization of honey", had the following conclusions:

1. Short-time heat treatment of honey with a temperature up to 55 C using a “Melitherm” device did not affect the GOD, while at 70 C GOD activity declined by approximately 10%. 
2. HMF increase was inappreciable and did not depend on the treatment temperature.
3. Activation energy of GOD heat inactivation process in crystallized honey up to 50 C was 15 kcal mol^-1, and in 50-70C it amounted to 60.5 kcal mol^-1.
4. Our research evidenced that using both methods honey can be heated up to 50-55 C with no damage to GOD activity.

BTW, GOD=glucose oxidase.

All of this means (at least to me) that statements on the deleterious effects of heating honey may not be as profound as some suggest. I think the real effects of heating honey are heavily related to exactly how its done. That is, how hot do you get the honey and how long it remains at that temperature. I believe that the first study referenced above suggested that flash heating had very little impact on honey. I also believe that if you store your honey as cool as possible, and only gently heat to remove crystals just prior to sale, the impact on flavor, enzymes, and HMF will be very minimal.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

deknow said:


> ....and generally when an enzyme is denatured,.its ability to act as an.enzyme is no longer one of its.properties. its.utility and usefulness as an enzyme.is.destroyed.
> Deknow



Well as has been demonstrated in this thread, people generally have a poor understanding of what an enzyme is and how they work. Some people actually think that enzymes are alive and you "kill" them with heat (I just googled "live enzyme" and got over 16 Million hits). So anyway, why dont we quit jerking around and use the correct term? It can only help people understand what they are talking about. Why would you be against that?

FWIW - Some enzymes can be brought back (beleive it or not, the correct term is actually renature).


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I believe Nabber86 is using the proper terminology, in a proper manner. Good job.

Correct me here if I am wrong. 50 deg C is close to 122 deg F? I know of NO honey packers that use 122 F to liquefy honey. 65 deg. C is closer to what some use, and from a post a while back, was responsible for denaturing enzymes, and most likely other proteins that determine flavor. 

Crazy Roland


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

F = 9/5c + 32 & c = 5/9(f - 32)

55c = 131f

65c = 149c


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

MY bad, OK 131 F is NOT what most packers use to liquefy honey, so that info is not very pertinent.

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Are properties of honey destroyed or degraded by using them in hot drinks like tea and coffee? How about baking or in any other food dishes which are cooked?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Roland said:


> MY bad, OK 131 F is NOT what most packers use to liquefy honey, so that info is not very pertinent.
> 
> Crazy Roland


So, what do most packers use to liquefy honey? 150F?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

In post #48 "...that info is not very pertinent". Not quite sure what you're saying. In my mind the thrust of this thread is not what packers do. However, if you're referring to the data that I've posted, then I disagree. The one study was done at a packer’s facility. See post #19 and read the studies in the links. There is no question that high temps and long duration will certainly degrade the properties of honey from the unheated state. The amount of degradation is a function of many variables, but the two primary ones are max temp and duration of the heat. One of the studies in post #44 shows that flavor of the honey they tested was unaffected by flash heating. They went to the extreme of heating to 194 F for 5 minutes and the people still couldn't detect a taste difference compared to unheated honey. 

I'm not saying this to somehow justify that heating isn't bad. Heating is bad if done improperly. I jumped into this thread for a few reasons. One was that some of the language used to qualify the impact of heating was both extreme (and was pointed out as incorrect), and seemed to be used to shock people not educate them. Another reason was that heating when used properly with low temps and applied only long enough to bring honey back to a liquid state will have very minimal impact on its properties. Lastly, we need to be stewards of the language used in our industry. I feel that the word "raw" is very misunderstood by the general public. I have had people come up to my booth and turn around and say, sorry I was looking for raw honey. They are so programmed that raw honey must have chucks of crystallized honey present (some even want other non-honey chucks). To me, this is a very a misinformed customer and one that I take extra time with to educate them as to what exactly is in the jars on the table.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Astrobee - I am not debating any of your information, nor any of your comments. I am basically in agreement with you. The point that I poorly tried to make is that the temperature of 55 deg C(did I get it right?)is WAY below what most packers use(and anyone heating honey for sale is by definition a packer). 

I have no problems with you selling your honey as you wish.

Crazy Roland


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Nabber86 said:


> ... I just googled "live enzyme" and got over 16 Million hits...


 So what, I googled "raw food movement" and got over 18 million hits. 

This is one of them. http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet-veganbaby.html

IN MY HUMBLE OPINION the hoopla about “raw” “unheated” “natural” or unfiltered honey is a branch of a religion known as “Foodism” a. k. a. “Raw Foodism.” Other facets or branches of Raw Foodism are Vegetarianism Veganism, etc. But Raw Foodism is not limited to Veganism, or Vegetarianism, there are branches of Raw Foodism who themselves eat or who preach that others eat a raw omnivore diet, and there are branches of Raw Foodism who eat or advocate a diet of raw meat known as a raw carnivore diet. All these branches of Raw Foodism are off shoots or branches of other health food movements or fads that have existed in Western Society off and on for over 2,000 years. 

You may also find Sylvester Graham, John Harvey Kelloggs, or other past foodist a fun read. 
All these branches of Raw Foodism do have one unifying dogma. That dogma is that nothing you eat may be heated or cooked beyond a temperature of 105°F (40°C for our friends in the rest of the world). This temperature is what one would expect to see in a seriously ill human adult with a high fever, Bon Appetit.

More hits on Raw Foodism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_foodism
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6537438
http://www.fredericpatenaude.com/articles/fanaticism.html

My own belief in the matter is that the Raw Food Movements’ leaders view us beekeepers and our honeybees as low hanging fruit.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So give them what they want and make them pay for it. Supply what they demand. That's Capitalism. Makes the world go round.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I copy that, SQKCRK. Give them what they want.

Crazy Roland


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## the kid (Nov 26, 2006)

(3) Honey sold as such shall not have added to it any food additives, as defined in Section 500.03(1)(m), F.S., nor shall any other additions be made other than honey. It shall not have begun to ferment or effervesce and no pollen or constituent unique to honey may be removed except where unavoidable in the removal of foreign matter. Chemical or biochemical treatments shall not be used to influence honey crystallization.

this says the big honey company's the ultra filter can not sell in Fl ,, RIGHT


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> Give them what they want.
> 
> Crazy Roland


This can be taken a number of ways. If the customer is expecting honey not to be heated, filtered or what ever and you do any of these things without revealing what you are doing you are not giving them what they want regardless of why they want it.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The whole idea of educating the public about the benefits of unheated honey is quite workable when you have a one on one relationship with your customer but pretty much a fantasy on a large scale. The vast majority of shoppers in grocery stores refuse to buy granulated honey particularly when it is in squeeze containers. The result is that grocers pull it off the shelf and charge it back to the supplier. I used to supply several large warehouses and had it happen repeatedly usually with a backhaul and handling charge tacked on. Trying to explain that it is normal for honey to do this falls on deaf ears, the only thing the store and the buyer cares about is if the product is selling. In my case the product ended up hundreds of miles away and I was free to pick it up if I wished, they would only hold it a short time and then either dispose of it or donate it. I always requested that it be donated but have my doubts it ever was because they might feel there was a potential liability.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I wrote :

Give them what they want.

That is exactly what I meant. I did NOT say "give them something they don't want, and call it what they do want"

Jim Lyon wrote:

The whole idea of educating the public about the benefits of unheated honey is quite workable when you have a one on one relationship with your customer but pretty much a fantasy on a large scale.

I agree, you and I may not have the charisma to pull it off on a large scale, but I bet the right individual could do it. 

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

the kid said:


> this says the big honey company's the ultra filter can not sell in Fl ,, RIGHT


According to folks who should know, big honey companys DON'T ultra filter. Ultra filtration isn't necassary. So, no, wrong.

Acebird, certainly you don't think we should insist that we provide customers what they don't want, do you? If you are selling something, anything, you should always try to give the customer what they want or they will find someone who will and buy it from them. If you can't, then don't.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Acebird, certainly you don't think we should insist that we provide customers what they don't want, do you?


No I am not suggesting you do that, I am suggesting it happens quite frequently. The word "honey" sounds good and natural to most people but is it? The word raw has a further connotation to be pure but is it? The temptation to label a product something it isn't is for financial gain. Does Honey Nut Cheerios have honey in it or something else? Is the honey in a plastic bear raw? Does the honey that is labeled "Joe Blow Apiaries" actually come from Joe Blow Apiaries bees?


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"Give them what they want"
OK - don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to show off here or anything . This is purely a marketing excercise.
As I mentioned before we had 12 students and 2 faculty here from the US. Our meals consist of vegetables and meat ( mostly) from our own garden/farm - and so does the honey!
Now they tell me that the honey was " awsome" - a term I'm not very familiar with here in rural Australia. I'm told that it translates into something like " pretty good".
Anyway, to keep a long story short, I sold them about $ 250 of my product - honey the way it comes out of the hive. No heating and straining only through 1/16 inch screen to take the bees knees out but keep the pollen in.
I asked them where they buy the honey at home. Two buy it from beekeepers and the rest " wherever it is cheap". I gave them a lesson in buying local - from a beekeeper.

Lesson, as Crazy says - Give them what they want. Hopefully next time they will be buying from a beekeeper!


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

My honey is whatever my customers want it to be. Nobody has ever asked me if it was filtered or heated or treated in anyway. Some may ask where it came from and I say "from my own backyard." They usually respond with something like "OMG, it has live enzymes and will cure my kid's allergies". Am I supposed to get into an argument with them like I do so often with people here?


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"I supposed to get into an argument with them"
No, but I think we need to be pro-active. We sell at a farmers market near here. I always try to have 3 different samples for tasting. I have also little leaflets telling them what we do and why with our honey. It is all an educational process. We also have a website ( photos yet to be added - check in a while) http://ecovillageresearchgroup.com.au/


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"I supposed to get into an argument with them"
No, but I think we need to be pro-active. We sell at a farmers market near here. I always try to have 3 different samples for tasting. I have also little leaflets telling them what we do and why with our honey. It is all an educational process. We also have a website ( photos yet to be added - check in a while) http://ecovillageresearchgroup.com.au/


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

As is true in most commercial transactions "The Buyer Beware" applies. It is up to the consumer to do their homework, know what you want and ask for it.

There is only so much room on a Label. And there are only two places on a jar and one place on a lid to put Labels. I know people who never read the back label, where the barcode is. I bet most don't even read the front label beyond seeimng the yellow label and the words Squeak Creek. My customers want honey from me. Some are more discerning and want RAW honey. A small number want Blueberry Blossom, Orange blossom or Buckwheat. so, for those, I buy it from producers I know and I sell it.

Give people what they want. You can't please all people all the time. Some people won't buy honey if it has really small air bubbles in it. Some won't buy it if they can see thru it. Give them what they want. Sell it to them.

What they want is a "Point of Sale". Learn something about Marketing and impliment what you learn.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> As is true in most commercial transactions "The Buyer Beware" applies. It is up to the consumer to do their homework, know what you want and ask for it.


I don't know how others feel but "Buyer Beware" implies you may be dealing with a crook. I see a huge difference between a label that says "Squeak Creek" and one that says "Squeak Creek Apiaries". Most commercial transactions are counting on the stupidity of the consumer. Why else would Monsanto sue for someone putting the words "Non GMO" on their packages. They don't want the consumer educated and they lobby real hard to keep information of not only their products but their competitors.



> I buy it from producers I know and I sell it.


Does it have point of origin? If not it could be Chinese or anywhere for that matter.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Buyer Beware means, educate yourself before you buy. Get what you want. Demand it. I certainly don't put it on my label, in case you thought so.

What is the huge difference you see between Squeak Creek and Squeak Creek Apiaries?

How about Squeak Creek Honey Co.? What assumptions would you make reading that?

I think you have a poor attitude about most commercial transactions counting on the stupidity of the consumer. It seems like you assume an advisarial relationship w/ every transaction.

Do you blame those who sell things for consumer ignorance? Whose responsibility is it to educate consumers? Who is supposed to make the consumer aware, the buyer be ware?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Does it have point of origin? If not it could be Chinese or anywhere for that matter.


There is no requirement for point of origin for honey produced in the USA. Assume what you wish. But, if asked, I have no problem telling where it was made.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

For most commercial operations the owner is not there. The product is sold by someone else who probably doesn't know a thing about the commercial operation. That is the point of labeling in the first place. If you were there you could tell the customer anything they wanted to know like a farmers market or the back of your truck.

Squeak Creek Honey Co., Inc, LLC, or what ever is a business. Squeak Creek Apiaries is a farm, implies where the honey comes from, big difference IMO.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I see. Most people don't know what an Apiary is. At one time I considered dropping the Apiaries from the name for that reason. But, at the urgings not to from respected customers and since I had had the name for a number of years w/out trouble I decided to keep it.

My phone number is on the jar. I have had very few calls from customers concerning the properties of the honey. Usuyally they want to know where else they could buy it.


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## Scrapfe (Jul 25, 2008)

Acebird said:


> ... The word raw has a... connotation [of] pure but is it? ...Does the honey that is labeled [from] "Joe Blow Apiaries" actually come from Joe Blow Apiaries bees?


No, it (or a large portion) may have came from Jane Doe's apiary that were robbed out while she was on active duty in Iraq. My bee refuse to punch a time card and until they do I can't tell you where ALL my honey comes from.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The point is your bees collect nectar, maybe honey from a source no farther than about 5 miles from where your apiary is. Are you limiting your sub contractors to 5 miles?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

In Massachusetts, a beekeeper can sell significant ammonts of honey from their own bees without an inspected facility.
Once you buy in honey from somoeone else's.bees, you are required to have a full certified kitchen. This is one reason that beekeepers don't admit when they buy in honey.

In testing, we've found unadulterated honey from a large migratory operation......and honey that was 30% beet sugar from smaler suppliers who bought the honey in bulk from the same commercial operation.

Deknow


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

deknow said:


> In Massachusetts, a beekeeper can sell significant ammonts of honey from their own bees without an inspected facility.


Makes perfect sense doesn't it?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Default Re: Do you heat your honey before sale?

Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
In Massachusetts, a beekeeper can sell significant ammonts of honey from their own bees without an inspected facility.
Makes perfect sense doesn't it? 


No it does not. Our extracting facility is in the same building as a food packing plant. Instead of sending two inspectors, I get inspected by the food packing plant inspector, who demands higher standards than a honey extracting inspector would. This higher standard is more costly. I do not retail, yet my standards are higher than a beekeeper that sells retail. That is not a level playing field. All retail sales should meet the same standard, all wholesale sales should all meet another standard.

Crazy Roland

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> I get inspected by the food packing plant inspector, who demands higher standards than a honey extracting inspector would.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Soo, its your choice to be in the food packing business. Why should everyone else that is producing honey be subject to regulations when honey has virtually no chance of spoilage?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I repeat:

Our extracting facility is in the same building as a food packing plant.

I am NOT a packer, we share a building.

Acebird wrote:
Why should everyone else that is producing honey be subject to regulations when honey has virtually no chance of spoilage?

Spoilage is not the issue as much as contamination. Most of the regulations cover possible sources of contamination, like covers on the florescent light fixture, flying insect control, and ease of cleaning the area. I am glad I meet these higher standards. I believe it makes a better product.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> I am NOT a packer, we share a building.


The point is that is your choice so you alone should deal with the consequences.


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