# comb drawn on a foundationless frame



## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

It does depend, but mostly on the strength of the hive (mostly the population of young bees), how much they are fed, and if there is a strong honey flow.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Joe's right on. I have some hives that draw it as straight and neat as plastic foundation and other hives that don't make the connection completely around the frame and make a huge mess cross-combing everything. Depends on the colony.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

In my experience, the bees will start two 'lobes' of comb and will draw out horizontally until they meet both each other and the sides and vertically until they meet or come close to the bottom bar. I have found that they seem to have trouble drawing nice consistent comb all the way to the bottom of a deep frame. It starts to go different directions or angles and becomes inconsistent. It would seem based on that experience that the best way to go with foundationless frames is using mediums. I'm doing more testing this year.


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## ezwicky (Jan 10, 2012)

thanks for the replies. i will be using all mediums, so we'll see. this guy last night made it a blanket statement that under all circumstances there will only be the hanging comb, not touching the sides or bottom of the frame.


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

My experience has been that they'll fill the shape of the frame but not immediately connect the comb to the sides and bottom. There will be about a 1/2" gap around the sides and bottom. Eventually they connect it and fill it in. That's why I use fishing line through the holes of the frame to support that free hanging comb in the frame until they get it connected. I can see where using mediums instead of deeps will get it filled in more quickly. Of course the bees are gonna do what they want as they don't read beesource.


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## DC Bees (Sep 24, 2009)

Here is a pic of a deep foudationless frame,like they said sometimes it works and sometimes they mess it up.
http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i418/DCBees/DSC01930.jpg


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## DBeeCooper (Apr 28, 2010)

I use all mediums. I put a couple of foundationless frames into one of my hives last year to see what would happen. It took quite a while, but I did finally get two beautiful fully drawn and fully capped frames of honey. The comb was connected to the frame all the way around, however, they left two small open travel passages, one in each of the lower corners of each of the frames. 

If you do this, put the empty frames between frames of drawn comb, not foundation, and don't put empty frames next to each other. Also, put a thumbtack into the top bar of the frame, or otherwise mark it, so you know which ones are foundationless.

I don't know how much more I'll do this, because I just don't know much what to do with comb honey compared to extracted honey, and the bees expend alot of effort drawing all of the comb out each time.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Here is a typical foundationless honey comb:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/FoundationlessDrawn.JPG


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

And here's another foundationless medium comb of capped honey -->










And here's another one, this one of capped brood, with a tiny patch of drone brood -->


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

You need to start with foundationless frames between already drawn comb. If you just put them in an empty box, my experience has been a giant mess.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I use foundationless mediums and my bees will normally draw out the honey super frames completely to all four sides if given during a good flow, the brood frames however seem to hardly ever get attached completely on all sides, usually they have about 1/3 of the sides unattached and the bottom mostly unattached, maybe a couple small attachment points along the bottom at most.


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## VAMOM (Dec 27, 2011)

So what are you all putting on the frames to guide them? I read about using Popsicle sticks or paint sticks and some mention dipping them in wax?? I will be starting a hive next month with a package of bees. I have mediums and had ordered them with wax foundations but have not assembled them yet because I am leaning towards going foundationless...


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I cut 1/2" strips and slide then into the grove and then paint melted burr comb wax on them. Works really well.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So what are you all putting on the frames to guide them?

I have done about everything. My favorite is a bevel. Next would be a wood strip.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#combguide


> I read about using Popsicle sticks or paint sticks and some mention dipping them in wax?? 

I do not dip them in wax anymore. The wax is not necessary and is never attached as well as the bees attach it.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#howdoyougofoundationless

>I will be starting a hive next month with a package of bees. I have mediums and had ordered them with wax foundations but have not assembled them yet because I am leaning towards going foundationless... 

Turn the wedge.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Last year, I tried strips of scrap wood stapled to the top bar. This year, I'm trying putting a bead of wood glue in the gap and dropping three Popsicle sticks in there.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

Solomon Parker said:


> This year, I'm trying putting a bead of wood glue in the gap and dropping three Popsicle sticks in there.


I just did that with a bunch of frames, only I made the rounds to Lowes, Home Depot and Kelly Moore paint and grabbed about 10 paint sticks from each store, then I cut them in half and glued them into the grooved top bar............now I just have to see what the bees will do with them!!


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I have children, so I have Popsicle sticks a-plenty!


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## TheCompound (Jan 24, 2011)

I glued popsicle sticks into the top bar groove and put them in each of my two hives when I added my third brood box (all mediums). In the Carniolan hive, I alternated four foundationless frames with six frames of new plastic foundation (ffxfxfxfxf : f=foundation and x=foundationless). The bees seemed to start drawing out the foundationless frames a little faster than the frames with foundation, but worked on the four or five center-most frames simultaneously. It would have been better to put the foundationless frames between drawn frames rather than new plastic foundation. It would have helped keep everything a little more nice and straight. Since these were my first two hives, drawn frames were not available. Still, the bees drew the comb from the top bar (covering the popsicle sticks) and most of the way down the sides.

In my Italian hive, I put four foundationless frames together in the center of the new brood box (fffxxxffff). Disaster! Within 10 days they had three nice, parallel combs started that ran accross the 4 foundationless frames at a 45 degree angle.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Keep in mind that the results of alternating foundation and foundationless are totally different in a brood nest than a super. If they are building them for brood they will only build them so deep (about an 1") while if they are for honey there is no real practical limit to how deep they will draw a comb and since they prefer the foundationless, they typically draw those really deep and ignore the foundation between resulting in frames of combs so fat that you can't remove them. If you make this mistake, then flip the box upside down and remove the entire box from the frames first, then pry each comb off the end as you go.


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## Lauren (Jun 10, 2010)

I have mostly medium foundationless. Mine tend to attach to all sides eventually, with holes for them to travel along. They draw out the foundationless much faster than the other. I have no trouble extracting the honey from them. 

I went to the lumberyard and bought triangle trim boards. I cut them to frame length and glued them on to the top of the frame. It was cheap and easy and the girls seem to love it!


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## TheCompound (Jan 24, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> Keep in mind that the results of alternating foundation and foundationless are totally different in a brood nest than a super.


Thanks Michael. I hadn't thought of that. It was my first season with new packages and new equipment and I only had the opportunity to work with brood boxes. Still, the lesson was learned and I'll only be adding foundationless frames between fully drawn frames in the future!


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## thomasj (Jul 21, 2011)

If i use foundationless frames is it necessary to use wire on the frames?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Wiring frames is a personal preference, I personally prefer to use two horizontal wires in the center of both medium or deep frames, it beats the heck out of watching big chunks of comb fall from the frames and smash onto the ground during the heat of Summer. I prefer for that to happen as little as possible.


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## DC Bees (Sep 24, 2009)

I don't know if it is necessary,i have used wire in the past but i think fishing line works better and is easier.If you want to cut some comb out you can cut right through the fishing line.Here is a pic.The frame in back has an X with fishing line.
http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i418/DCBees/DSC01944.jpg


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>If i use foundationless frames is it necessary to use wire on the frames? 

I run all mediums and I don't. I know people doing deeps who don't. I might consider it if I was doing deeps and moving hives a lot. I do think the fishing line seems like a better plan. I like to be able to cut out queen cells etc. and maybe you could cut them out better if you could easily cut the line with a knife... I haven't tried that though.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#dowire


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## thomasj (Jul 21, 2011)

how do you keep the fishing line tight and also what do you use on the bottom of the topbar for the bees to get started on?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Fishing line is somewhat elastic. It stays fairly tight on its own. I don't use it because it seems to break eventually anyway.

Popsicle sticks, either glued into the groove or stapled in place of the wedge.


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## beyondthesidewalks (Dec 1, 2007)

I use 50lb test, very thick, and it hasn't broken on me yet. Of course once the bees have completed attaching the combs to the side and bottom of the frame it has served its purpose. Any reinforcement that it offers after that is icing on the cake for me. I just want the heavy combs full of brood and/or honey to have some support, especially on hot summer days. You feel really bad when you lift a frame out of the hive, turn it over and helplessly watch the comb fall right out of it. I pull the fishing line as tight as I can get it and then staple it with an 18 guage staple. Doesn't budge on me. Strum the strings and it sounds a little like a Ukelele.


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## SteveBee (Jul 15, 2010)

Last year we used some foundationless frames and nailed the wedge on sideways to make a comb guide. This year, I've been putting together 400 of the foundationless frames Kelley's sells. They have the bevel already on the top bar.


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

Does anyone but Kelleys offer the foundationless frames with the bevel?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Does anyone but Kelleys offer the foundationless frames with the bevel? 

Not that I know of.


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## bigwoodsbees (Dec 24, 2010)

Has anyone tried putting a medium honey super filled with Kelley's beveled foundationless frames on a hive during a nectar flow? Did the bees do a good job drawing out comb that was relatively easy to remove? The weather here in MN is ridiculously warm for March and I am anticipating a much earlier spring nectar flow this year.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Has anyone tried putting a medium honey super filled with Kelley's beveled foundationless frames on a hive during a nectar flow?

No, but I've used a box full of frames just like them... it works fine.


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

Mike how do you get them to draw frames for supers correctly then.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Mike how do you get them to draw frames for supers correctly then. 

I don't understand the question. A full box of undrawn foundationless frames are drawn fine. A ladder might be helpful (a comb pulled up from below) but during a flow it's warm enough and there are enough bees that it doesn't really matter.


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## sfisher (Sep 22, 2009)

Mike you said if they are drawing brood comb they will only draw it appox. a inch thick, but if it is for honey they will draw it thicker and run it all together. Which is a problem that I have had before, the frames were so thick that you cant pull them out of the super. Is there a way to fix that problem?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you put all the undrawn foundationless frames together it's not a problem. They will start several at a time and they will be on each frame. But if you put the foundationless frames between drawn, but not capped comb, then they fatten the drawn comb and don't draw the foundationless.


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## LetMBee (Jan 4, 2012)

M. Bush: I have had them do as you say, but I have also had them draw out entire deep frames of drone comb when checker boarding foundation less frames between drawn deep frames. The best luck I have had is nadiring foundation less frames under other boxes. They seem to cross comb less that way AND they don't beginning the comb building from the bottom of the frame. I have pictures of this and will up them when I get home.


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## Moccasin (May 18, 2010)

I used 50 Kelley beveled last year and I much prefer the wedge top instead because you cannot attach any kind of foundation to them if you want to. I may want to attach plastic comb someday I don't know. I have never found any trouble with the wedge tops in the first place. I just wanted to get a better look at the new beveled ones so I tried them.


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## Ramona (Apr 26, 2008)

KevinR said:


> You need to start with foundationless frames between already drawn comb. If you just put them in an empty box, my experience has been a giant mess.


Not necessarily. We have had bees draw beautiful straight combs when shaken into a 10 frame deep with popsicle stick guides.


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## Ramona (Apr 26, 2008)

We run all 10 frame deeps with many foundationless frames. Often I have to examine the frames really closely to tell if they are foundation based or foundationless. The bees will often connect so much of the foundationless comb to the frame that it looks to be foundation, the only clue being that there are no wires. 

Last year I put some foundation in used foundationless frames after scraping out old wax and installing wire. I trim the foundation so frame is open above top wire and below bottom wire leaving popsicle sticks in place. Bees can choose how far up or down they want to draw the comb. They usually draw bigger cells in the open spaces (we use all small cell foundation when we use it) for storing honey (top, attaching to popsicle sticks) or rearing drones (bottom, sometimes connecting, sometimes not) although will sometimes fill in with all worker cell depending on frame position in box.

In the future if I scrape out these wired frames (for whatever reason) and let the bees draw foundationless, I really won't be able to tell!

Ramona


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## LetMBee (Jan 4, 2012)

Here are a couple of frames that show some of my experiences with foundation-less frames. 
This is what happens when I nadir deeps under pre-existing ones to get them to draw foundation. 

Looks pretty good. They draw it pretty straight.

This is what I get when I try to add another deep to the top of an already filled deep. 

Has anyone else observed the building of comb in an upward direction like this? 

My sample size is small I only have 11 hives, but these are the results fairly consistently.


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## thomasj (Jul 21, 2011)

thanks so much for your reply


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

dumb question: I bought Dadant wedge type frames, and they have a removable piece of wood at the top used to make the wedge. Is there a diagram somewhere on how to put these together so I don't need hundreds of popsicle sticks? Since I now have about 30 of these with neither sticks nor wedges in with bees, it could become a REALLY urgent question. 

Gypsi


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I don't know about a diagram, but when I use these wedge Top Bar frames as foundationless frames, I just pull the wedge piece free of the Top Bar, clean any burrs from the edge of the wedge and where it was removed from the Top Bar, then I put a tiny bead of Titebond III glue against the inner edge of the Top Bar, then place the back of the wedge into the glue with the thin edge projecting down from the Top Bar and staple it into place with three to five, evenly distributed staples. I then wire the frame before installing it into a hive for comb building.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

LetMbee,

When you super with foundationless and get those results, do you space them between drawn comb?

Just can't help showing off my new foundationless frames


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## Zanna (Mar 27, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> ... if they are for honey .... they typically draw those really deep and ignore the foundation between resulting in frames of combs so fat that you can't remove them.


So is the bottom-line that in a honey super you should alternate foundationless frames with frames of drawn comb, instead of frames with foundations? I'm a beginner, and will be getting my bees in 5 frame nucs. I'd really like to transition them to foundationless right from the get-go. Is that crazy for a beginner? Is it possible to buy frames with some kind of artificial comb to put in-between the foundationless frames? Or should I wait until next season when I might have my own drawn comb?

One last set of questions: When you transition to foundationless, what are the reasons you might choose to use wire? Is that really a consideration for people using mechanical honey extractors, or is there some other purpose?

Thanks for any tips, y'all!


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## LetMBee (Jan 4, 2012)

Don: those bad results just came from putting a box full of none drawn foundation less frames on top of a previously occupied deep. I have had much better results checker boarding them between already drawn deep frames. The only problem is that they make A LOT of drone brood when I checkerboard. I am still working with it.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Zanna: I'm also starting 25 foundationless hives from 5 frame nucs. We've had excellent weather here in Indy, so I split the brood next and put foundationless frames there. They are being drawn out as 95% worker cells. Another trick I picked up here is to remove the non-brood combs that came with your nuc to allow more foundationless frames to be installed. This process is eased into, not done all at once.

LetMbee: Thanks for that info. I just put my first super (second brood) on 2 hives checkered with sealed honey frames taken from other nucs . It will be interesting to see the difference of these frames over the brood rather than in the brood.


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## LetMBee (Jan 4, 2012)

Don: keep us posted on the progress please. I checkerboarded my honey supers in the same fashion. It doesn't matter to me if they draw it out in drone comb as long as they just fill it with honey. I agree that it must be eased into. I have had good luck with them filling out foundation less perfectly in my swarm traps provided there is 1 old black brood comb in there to begin with. This is the first year I will be setting some of my traps out without any brood comb in there (not enough dead outs to supply all traps). I will pass along how that worked later this summer.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

If I wasnt in such a hurry, I should have taken a picture of the foundationless frames I installed in one of my hives!! I had three FF in a top deep and they built drone comb on them, they also completely filled the frame, only a couple spaces where they can get through in the corners. However, the comb drawn closest to the end bars was perfect, then about 4" in from the end bar the comb was actually sideways for about 2", then straight for a couple more inches and then another section of sideways comb and then straight again until the end bar on the other side of the frame!!LOL Was quite interesting to say the least!!

I think I left a frame like that in the hive, i'll take a picture of it next time I open them up! I do like the foundationless though, and over time will give me some great natural comb.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So is the bottom-line that in a honey super you should alternate foundationless frames with frames of drawn comb, instead of frames with foundations?

Exactly backwards. You should NOT alternate drawn comb and foundationless in the supers. They will continue the drawn comb fatter and ignore the foundationless.

> I'm a beginner, and will be getting my bees in 5 frame nucs. I'd really like to transition them to foundationless right from the get-go. Is that crazy for a beginner? 

Not crazy.

>Is it possible to buy frames with some kind of artificial comb to put in-between the foundationless frames?

I would just use a box full of foundationless frames and not worry. Check them in a week of so. If it's crazy, the cut it and tie it into the frames straight. It is almost always fine.

>One last set of questions: When you transition to foundationless, what are the reasons you might choose to use wire? Is that really a consideration for people using mechanical honey extractors, or is there some other purpose?

I don't see any difference in extraction. It makes a difference in a strong flow and the comb is new and soft and the combs are heavy and you are messing with them... but otherwise it doesn't matter unless you move them a lot. Then the wire might pay.


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## Zanna (Mar 27, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> I would just use a box full of foundationless frames and not worry. Check them in a week of so. If it's crazy, the cut it and tie it into the frames straight. It is almost always fine.


Ok - so it can be simpler than I was imagining...Thanks for the tips and encouragement. So can anyone direct me to something to read/pictures to look at about cutting out funky comb and tying it into frames straight? I don't have enough experience to be able to visualize how to do that.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

Zanna said:


> So can anyone direct me to something to read/pictures to look at about cutting out funky comb and tying it into frames straight?


If you look up "comb capture frames" here, or on google, you should get some pretty good ideas there...it's the simplest way I know of...just cut it out, place in hardware-cloth/deer-fence covered frame, close frame, then insert into your hive. 

Also, for info from experienced ppl on comb guides, you can always check out the "Top Bar Hives" forum...it's one of the biggest topics of discussion in there.


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## ZEEBEE (Aug 22, 2003)

I started 2 foundationless hives last week. Each medium super had 2 full frames of honey. The nectar flow will starting soon. SHould I feed these hives or leave them alone?

If I feed, I think I'll go with a gallon bucket atop my top entrance lid.

Thanks.


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