# Too late to treat for mites?



## reynoldg (Jun 29, 2009)

First year with 2 hives(new colonies).Both hives were doing well up until early oct. Noticed large amt of dead bees in front of hive.Would not take sugar feed and totally died out in a month.mite count was not high before.The other hive has been thriving-taking extra feed,although they have large amount of stores. Noticed 2 cups of dead bees in front of hive today and noticed some of the bees dead with head stuck in comb cells as the other dead hive had numerous bees dead head-first in cells. Is there any treatment I could use at this stage? Daytime temps are in 50's and 40's.Grease patties? Any advice would be appreciated as I would like to save this hive. These hives are not starving. Ihave no idea what is killing these bees. thanks


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## SwedeBee1970 (Oct 26, 2008)

Dead bees faced inward is a good sign of starvation if the comb is empty. Has the queen excluder been left on ? The bees shouldn't leave the queen when it's cold and don't feed when she can't get to the honey stores. Leaving the excluder on during winter could kill the entire colony depending on where the honey stores are. 

The mite issue, however, can be aided with some mint essential oils from Honey Bee Healthy (HBH). Most mites are immune to Apistan and it could compromise the hive with it's toxic affects. Make some 2:1 syrup and add the HBH to it. Put some in a feeder and take a small paintbrush and baste the tops of frames and anything inside (without the bees themselves) with the syrup/HBH mix. Theoretically, the essential oils will help blast tracheal mites and deter the Varroas long enough to allow the bees to get them under control.

Here is some interesting info about essential oils and mite treatment:
http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/varroa/varroa2.htm


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Yep, it's too late!

Sorry.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Checkout oxolic acid drizzle www.scientificbeekeeping.com
It can be done on one of you're 50F days, if you really have a bad problem.


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## Axtmann (Dec 29, 2002)

NO, it’s not too late!

You can treat you bees in emergence any time the year, as long as the temperatures a few degrees above freezing.

Check for oxalic acid treatment. Treat with OA liquid one time per bee generation or with OA vapor as often as necessary.

There lots of information’s on the internet!


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

What are you feeding your bees? Sugar syrup? If so, take it off (just my view) 

and are you seeing mites? Deformed wings? Maybe the prob is not mites but maybe it's nosema cerana instead? 

Feed dry sugar instead, sugar syrup adds to the humidity problems in colder weather, causes an environment of stress. We get stressed we get colds and flu. We keep dry and warm as far as possible, and Bees get stressed and they have things they can get. Keep them dry and warm (low humidity and winter stores) 

Varroa mites and Nosema Cerana are a couple of the largest problems with the bees now, as far as my understanding of things are at the moment.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

BWrangler has put his OA crack pipe section back on his web site.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>noticed some of the bees dead with head stuck in comb cells . . .
This is not a Varroa problem, it caused when bees starve. 

Is it too late to feed in WI?
Maybe not if you have stored frames of honey.
Trying to "bulk up" w/ any other kind of feed will bring on other problems.
Dry sugar and/or candy will not provide for the needs of a colony later when weather gets much colder.
Bees need to be clustered on HONEY this time of year.

Is it too late to treat for V-mites?
Yes, that should have been done much earlier in the season (mid Aug in WI).
If you had an effective earlier treatment, and a few mites remained and/or colony was re-infested by your bees robbing other hives and bring home the mites, now would be a time when OA drip might remove such "left over" mites. But, now (late Nov) is not the time to be thinking about "treatment" (of any kind) as a cure-all.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Dave W said:


> Yep, it's too late!
> 
> Sorry.


Is it? Really? We are still having some warmish days here in NY. What about w/ OA? It shouldn't be too late to use that, should it?


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

sqkcrk . . .
Did you miss my 12:44 pm post?

I guess its never "too late" to use it 
But waiting til now to "treat" is not best.
Learn to treat when it is likely to provide best results (you know this )


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## Omie (Nov 10, 2009)

At least as far as we are concerned near Albany NY, the wonderful 50F degree days we've been having seem to be over now and daytime _highs_ are steadily going to be _in the low to high 40's_ now, slowly and steadily getting colder than that, of course. Nights are now hovering near freezing.
Certainly too cold to be starting any 3 week MiteAwayII treatments. Probably too cold for quicker treatments as well, I imagine. My bees are starting to hunker down for the winter now.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

While it might be _warm_ enough to treat, how much benefit will you really get treating bees going into a long winter? Those bees going into winter, that need to last until spring, MUST be healthy. Treating may kill the mites or Nosema spores but it will not "fix" the bees weakened by these diseases. This is especially exacerbated by this year's cool weather and fall dearth as the queens shut down way early, leaving older than normal bees that need to live longer yet to make it til spring.

That said, I too think it sounds more like starvation. We had an extremely poor fall flow in Wisconsin, and Boscobel was no exception. If you didn't get the honey off in July there wouldn't be much if any left by September. If you _did_ get the honey off, they would have starved without substantial feeding.
Don't feel lonely if this is the case. We already know of widespread crop failures in the region, this will lead to widespread starvation if enough feed isn't put on them early enough for them to utilize it. 
Often, by the time you see dying bees, you can look to conditions many weeks earlier.
Sheri


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Dave W said:


> sqkcrk . . .
> Did you miss my 12:44 pm post?
> 
> I guess its never "too late" to use it
> ...


Yes, I probably did. Sometimes I react faster than other posters.

One thing to keep in mind is that one can't always do what one wishes to do at the correct time. So go ahead and do it when you can, not when you want to or when the best time to do it is. Or you will never do it. It maybe late, but not necassarily TOO late. And it maybe too late to be as effective as one would like. But the alternative of not doing anything may result in not only a less effective traetment, but a dead hive.

What could it hurt to treat late? Other than a waste of money.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>What could it hurt to treat late? Other than a waste of money . . .
I agree w/ your words about "human nature". But if everyone reads "its never too late", how will they ever understand that there IS a CORRECT time for EVERYTHING. If you are going to do something, why not do your very best to do it right the FIRST time?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes, I agree. Do what you should when you should. Then if you can't, for some reason, do it when you can.

Many a time I have helped remove honey in the rain or when there was 5 or 6 inches of snow on the ground. Certainly not the ideal time, but it was the right time. It had to be done before moving the bees south.


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## JohnK and Sheri (Nov 28, 2004)

I think what Dave W is saying is that we need to *stress* how important some things are to get done at the correct time. Pulling honey late may not be pleasant but it is not a catastrophe (unless it postpones getting feed and/or treatment on ). Getting feed or treatment on too late very well could lead to the death of your colony. 
Killing mites or nosema spores does not cure the bees already ravaged by not only the primary pathogen but all the viruses they carry. 
We have learned the hard way, if a colony goes into winter with a bunch of old poorly nourished mite/nosema/virus-ravaged bees there is very little chance of them making the winter, unless they are in a part of the country where brood raising continues. 
Sheri


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>I think what Dave W is saying . . .
Thats EXACTLY what I was "trying" to say 
Thanx 


I'm not picking on anyone, but . . . 
This is from another post:
>you should feed them all through the first year
but in the second year and so forth you should feed them most of the year
but stop feeding them just around this time of year.

Wunder where this "idea" came from?
Does anyone see a problem?
Do we need to consider "what we say" and "how we say it"?
If this is repeated until it becomes a FACT, I'll have to buy lots more sugar


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Dave W said:


> >What could it hurt to treat late? Other than a waste of money . . .
> I agree w/ your words about "human nature". But if everyone reads "its never too late", how will they ever understand that there IS a CORRECT time for EVERYTHING. If you are going to do something, why not do your very best to do it right the FIRST time?


It always costs less to do it right than to do it over. And yes, there are times it is too late.

Procrastination and the tyranny of the urgent distractions is the bane of all beekeeping, especially for those who are part-time and have other commitments. I can relate, but I'm not going to let the procrastinator off the hook just because he says, "But I've been busy."

We're all busy!

I recently talked to a beekeeper who shed his number of hives drastically, like reducing his apiaries by 90%. He said it was such a joy to work a few hives and get everything done when it was supposed to be done, than to have so many hives he never could take care of them.

And there is a nagging feeling that bothers me if I don't get these things done when they need to get done. It feels good to do it right.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Agreed, one could always spend a little more time with the bees and a little less time here and presto, the work gets done and bees are in good shape.

For sure I would have treated by now ( and I have) but had I not, then liquid oxalic acid would be my drug of choice. It is better late than having the mites suck the blood from bees all winter. It may in fact be too late but the alternative of doing nothing is no better.

I agree with Dave in that there are certainly best management practises such as medicating and feeding on time.

Jean-Marc


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