# "What is Varroa good for?"



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Last Sunday my Minister gave a sermon about a number of things, one of which was about an Entomologist who studied Grasshoppers in Wyoming(if I recall correctly). He studied grasshoppers for 20 years getting to know them intemately. He loved grasshoppers. Like beekeepers love bees I guess. But his real job was to get to know them so he could kill them. You see, grasshoppers have great ag economic impact. For eight years grasshoppers eat lots of crops, but come the ninth and tenth years they eat EVERYTHING. So he had to figure out how to kill the thing he loved.

When he would go to partys he often got asked "What are grasshoppers good for?" I don't recall that an answer was given. But what was pointed out was a different way of looking at the problem. The entomologist figured out that the tried and true method of killing grasshoppers by spraying everything not only didn't work very well after a number of years, he figured out that there was another way to address the problem. He figured out that if a certain insecticide was applied to only part of a crop that it would kill grasshoppers on that plot and then other grasshoppers would notice no grasshoppers over there and they would invade and eat the dead grasshoppers, thereby lowering the amount of insecticide applied by 90%.

All that to ask, what are Varroa mites good for? How can we come to love varroa enough to understand them well enough to get to the point where we can come up w/ effective "controls" which severally lower use of and exposure to miticides? Certainly there must be some Arachnidologists out there who know this critter really well. 

That entomologist quit entomology and now teaches creative writing.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>what are Varroa mites good for?

"I’ve thought a lot about how in the world to describe what’s really happening in an apiary that hasn’t used treatments of any kind for more than five years; where mites are now considered to be indispensible allies and friends, and where the productivity, resilience, profitability and enjoyment of the apiary are just as good as at any time in the past. I wouldn’t dream of killing any mites now, even if I had an easy and safe way of doing so. The serious problems I have at the moment are of a completely different nature..."

"Even though I was trained by my mentors to see pests and diseases as friends and teachers, I was terrified of these mites when they first arrived, and I reacted the same way most beekeepers did—by killing them any way I could that seemed safe and easy. As long as I continued on this path, the apiary, slowly but surely, became more fragile, vulnerable and stressful to operate. When I lost my fear of the mites, stopped killing them, and determined to learn all I could from them, the apiary went through the same process all insects go through in natural systems when they receive a serious challenge or shock—a period of collapse into some fraction of their former niche; followed by a rebound into the unoccupied space, with greater vitality and resilience than they had before the shock occurred.

"Without adopting the tracheal mites as mentors, I would never have been able to find a satisfactory solution to the Varroa problem.

"I watched the bees go through this process twice—first with tracheal mites, and then with Varroa. I was very lucky that there was a space of several years between the arrival of tracheal, and then Varroa mites. Without the experience and tutelage of the tracheal mites, I might not have had the courage to face up to Varroa mites in the same way. "--Kirk Webster, A New Paradigm for American Beekeeping


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

A change in mind set changed the varroa. How one thinks about something is paramount.

"You won't see it until you believe it." Or something like that.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Mark, what an interesting and thought-provoking thread subject. I hope it will stimulate some useful discussion, because I've wondered about this too. It strikes me that bees, as a species that has been around largely unchanged for millions of years, must be quite resilient. It puts me in mind of the Neitzsche/Conan Paradigm: "That which does not kill us makes us stronger."

Michael, elsewhere on the forum, Michael Palmer has said that Kirk has had very high losses recently. Do you know the reason for this?


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## B-Rant (Nov 8, 2012)

Varroa!
HUH! Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing! Say it again, yall!


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I look forward to hearing Kirk expound on this attitude at the MSBA annual meeting later this fall. I was out in one of my bee yards with a novice this morning and we never got to mite testing. Of far more immediate concern were colonies with no stores when not twenty feet away were colonies filling supers and putting up good looking slabs of honey in their double deeps. In spite of bountiful natural pollen available now I put patties on some colonies and this afternoon I'll go back with sugar syrup. I don't have enough empty boxes to surround my paint cans so I may have to unretire some hive top feeders. Mite treatments? The label for MAQS says hives should have both pollen and nectar stores before treating. My testing will wait a bit too.


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

I would take a guess that most commercial beekeepers love the varroa, why else would they be breeding them for strength and resourcefulness by killing all the weak ones. My guess is the varroa problem started when we began looking at mites as a pest. Once we began treating for mites the ones that survived adapted to prey on bees since the rest of the micro fauna had been wiped out.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Pipiyolti said:


> I would take a guess that most commercial beekeepers love the varroa, why else would they be breeding them for strength and resourcefulness by killing all the weak ones. My guess is the varroa problem started when we began looking at mites as a pest. Once we began treating for mites the ones that survived adapted to prey on bees since the rest of the micro fauna had been wiped out.


I respectfuly suggest that you have no clue what you are talking about. Or that you forgot a smiley or other emoticon.

Let's suppose for a moment that you are in fact serious with your post: What are the mites supposed to have lived on prior to honey bees?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

B-Rant said:


> Varroa!
> HUH! Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa
> What is it good for?
> Absolutely nothing! Say it again, yall!


Something I might have written in response. Thanks B-Rant


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Pipiyolti said:


> I would take a guess that most commercial beekeepers love the varroa, why else would they be breeding them for strength and resourcefulness by killing all the weak ones. My guess is the varroa problem started when we began looking at mites as a pest. Once we began treating for mites the ones that survived adapted to prey on bees since the rest of the micro fauna had been wiped out.


Having been around to experience the same years of Tracheal and Varroa as Kirk has, but w/ different eyes, I would say that the way we have addressed Mites from the beginning is much as we responded to Al qaeda after 9-11, we sought to eradicate and then we saught to knock them down so our bees could survive the infestation.

How would you suggest we look at them in a different way and favor the weak ones letting the strong ones dwindle?

They had already been preying on bees before they adapted to treatment materials, not the other way around. As you seem to suggest. (asked in a friendly tone)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Andrew Dewey said:


> What are the mites supposed to have lived on prior to honey bees?


We know that already, you and I, don't we? Other bees. Bees native to SE Asia.


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## rbees (Jun 25, 2012)

What are they good for?

From an ecological perspective:

Wax moths benefit from their presence, which in turn benefit those animals that eat wax moths..the old food web thing.

But the issue is varroa isn't anything like your ordinary pest such as a grasshopper. They did something unusual..they jumped the species barrier and due to human activity has be come prevalent in places where it would normally take 200 to 300 years to colonize.

So I really don't think you can compare the scenario you posted.

I suppose you could study the effects on it's natural host in Asia.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> We know that already, you and I, don't we? Other bees. Bees native to SE Asia.


Correct as usual, King Friday. I was anticipating some other answer.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Probably from someone else too.

Ha,ha,ha. Had to websearch that one.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

The one thing Mr. West gave me was to switch to Russian bees.What are VM good for? Well, they reduce the competition.


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> How would you suggest we look at them in a different way and favor the weak ones letting the strong ones dwindle?
> 
> They had already been preying on bees before they adapted to treatment materials, not the other way around. As you seem to suggest. (asked in a friendly tone)


 I once had a problem with wild birds eating all my tomatoes when they would just ripe, a real downer and it caused a little hate in my heart for the birds until I realized they weren't eating my tomatoes they were drinking the pulp. A few bird baths and the problem was gone... unless I forget to top them off. What I am saying is give the varroa an easier target than the honey bee. By the way, I look at gentle bees and I see weak bees:shhhh:


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

Andrew Dewey said:


> I respectfuly suggest that you have no clue what you are talking about. Or that you forgot a smiley or other emoticon.
> 
> Let's suppose for a moment that you are in fact serious with your post: What are the mites supposed to have lived on prior to honey bees?


I am serious. Antibiotics and pesticides inadvertently breed stronger pathogens and pests, it is well documented.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I hate it when the varroa get in my honey and I have to pick them out.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Pipiyolti said:


> What I am saying is give the varroa an easier target than the honey bee.


Which would be what?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Varroa and other challenges to beekeeping keep it from being easily scaled and corporatized. IE they make beekeeping more profitable for those independent beekeepers who are able and willing to deal with them.

If it was easy everyone would do it.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Jeez what would we have to argue about if not for varroa. 

Another good question might be, "what would be the price of honey and pollination if not for varroa?"


Don


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> Which would be what?


I really don't know but you can be sure there is something else to eat in a hive that isn't treated As a first year beekeeper I haven't had time to even look for a mite much less something else for the little critter to eat. I've been busy making splits and cleaning out old dirty boxes or "seasoned" as I like to think of them.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So you don't know anything about mites and what they need to live? Great.


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## Genemiller (Jul 21, 2013)

Pipiyolti said:


> I once had a problem with wild birds eating all my tomatoes when they would just ripe, a real downer and it caused a little hate in my heart for the birds until I realized they weren't eating my tomatoes they were drinking the pulp. A few bird baths and the problem was gone... unless I forget to top them off. What I am saying is give the varroa an easier target than the honey bee. By the way, I look at gentle bees and I see weak bees:shhhh:


I keep a bird bath to attract them to my garden. While they are getting a drink their keen eyes will locate garden pests. 

Gene


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

sqkcrk said:


> So you don't know anything about mites and what they need to live? Great.


I know I don't have a problem with them.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

And they don't have a problem w/ you I imagine


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

This is quite the month for IGNORING people.


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

To ignore, to be ignorant of. Sounds about right.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Varroa has certainly been very, very good to Scientists. All those papers published, all those grants received, and degrees conferred.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Shall we continue w/ the subject and ideas which this Thread is concerned w/ and not the extraneous stuff?

Or perhaps "Abandon all hope ye who enter here."? As so often happens when one trys to have a serious and intelligent conversation on beesource.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Well, some beekeepers had Varroa licked years ago, without any help from scientists who could only come up with treatments that weren't good for more than a few years. All they needed was a little 'wood bleach'.

Between Varroa, CCD, and neonics, I'd say that beekeepers have become media darlings (except for a few of you) and everybody is a lot more interested than they were before.

So, Varroa certainly helped that 'Cinderella' story to happen.


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## frankthomas (Aug 2, 2012)

I am a first year beek and am fascinated by the no treatment approach. M Bushes ideas and others in this thread have real appeal. But it's scary to take that leap. Respectfully and truly curious, are their other livestock that a similar approach has been effective with? Is that approach different than if I were to stop using antibiotics or other medicines? These are honest questions.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

WLC;992242 So said:


> Isn't that the story about the chick who lost her shoe?
> 
> If there is a parallel between Cinderella and beekeeping then I think the new Ulees Gold sequel should hire Imelda Marco's to play the new stepmother and the rest of us "drug addicted " beekeepers as the wild stepchildren. She and I could relate and play the parts naturally. Blasted varroa has cost me a whole closet of shoes....... and then some.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

WLC said:


> Varroa has certainly been very, very good to Scientists. All those papers published, all those grants received, and degrees conferred.


gee my first thought was all the commercial beeks who found a new source of income selling nucs and queens.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Y'all are missing the point.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I can't see where you're going with this, Mark. Hints? Perhaps a stir-fry with ginger and garlic?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> All that to ask, what are Varroa mites good for? How can we come to love varroa enough to understand them well enough to get to the point where we can come up w/ effective "controls" which severally lower use of and exposure to miticides? Certainly there must be some Arachnidologists out there who know this critter really well.


I assume you read the whole OP cg3, how can we look at this critter/problem in a different way?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

You are probably right Mark, we aren't really interested in the mites - other than as they relate to our goal of getting rid of them. And unless we do we probably won't really understand them. 

Desiring an outcome while being uninterested in the process has fairly predictable results. FE most of us share a desire on some level to make enough money to be comfortable, but we are hanging out here instead of a business forum. Guess what Warren Buffet likes to do every day? He does what interests him - which is investing. And it has probably been his interest in investing more than any desire to become rich that has made him successful.

So we all desire to be successful beekeepers - and are interested in beekeeping - but not so much in varroa.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

frankthomas said:


> I am a first year beek and am fascinated by the no treatment approach. M Bushes ideas and others in this thread have real appeal. But it's scary to take that leap. Respectfully and truly curious, are their other livestock that a similar approach has been effective with? Is that approach different than if I were to stop using antibiotics or other medicines? These are honest questions.


Some of the poultry companies....Perdue for one has now figured out that it is best for everyone involved including the chickens to not treat them.

I am not sure why I am saying this....It certainly doesn't have anything to do with keeping bees... :scratch:


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

David LaFerney said:


> You are probably right Mark, we aren't really interested in the mites - other than as they relate to our goal of getting rid of them. And unless we do we probably won't really understand them.


Our goal can't be to get rid of them. Because we can't. We cannot eradicate a pest, whether it is from the environment in general or from our individual hives. Not for the long term anyway. We have to learn how to live w/ them. How do we live w/ mites? We have to understand them intimately. Their wants and needs and habits and life cycle and how they relate to our colonies and ultimately us. 

It's about how we see how we fit into this relationship as much as it is how Varroa fits into this relationship. Because it is a relationship. Not one of our own choosing, but a relationship none the less. How do we go forward from here?

Maybe we are already doing as best as we can at Miticide Reduction w/ some of the so called soft chemical treatments and application timetables. Maybe we could do better w/ a different perspective.

Shouldn't the ultimate goal be to not need to use any chemical mite control at all? Maybe there is a way we can address Varroa through management techniques. We already see benefits to the use of Drone Comb Manipulation as done by Roland.


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## NewJoe (Jul 1, 2012)

just want to throw some of my thoughts out there.

Could it be that the bees themselves are trying to overcome the varroa problem? What I mean by this is could it be that the bees swarm sometimes for the exclusive purpose of reducing mites in the hive? And if this is the case if we allow nature to take it's course in the swarm situation and not get involved (catching and re-hiving) would it or could it allow the bees to naturally "control" the mites in their own way?

Please do not crucify me...I have no science to back this....just thoughts.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

That could work for some colonies, but not for beekeepers who want to make a living from keeping bees. Not a bad question.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Also constant swarming might work to control mites, but make it difficult for colonies to acquire sufficient winter stores in the North.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

sqkcrk:

We know a lot about Varroa. And, there's more on the way.

By the way, it's the viruses with which Varroa can infect Honeybees that are the real killer.

DWV really has me concerned since I learned that it has jumped species into the common eastern bumblebee.

By the way Newjoe, there is a method that uses artificial brood breaks (but not swarming) called MDA splitter. One set of bees is used for production and allowed to fade to the mites, The other set is split one or more times to provide artificial brood breaks and are then overwintered for next year's production.

You could always get hygienic stock though.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Shouldn't the ultimate goal be to not need to use any chemical mite control at all?


Of course that is what everyone wants. And hopefully to get to that point with sufficient bees and genetic diversity to weather the next big thing too.

And when I said "get rid of them" I meant something like get to the point where they are not an all consuming threat to bees and bee keeping like they may be now or have been in the recent past. But I suspect most of us understand that.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Africanized bees in Brazil don't have a problem with either the Korea, or Japan, haplotype of Varroa.


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## Sharpbees (Jun 26, 2012)

After doing cutouts for several years and doing it as a business this year one question has constantly crossed my mind when I cutout hives that have been in the same location for several years. How did these bees survive with no intervention? I know sometimes the bees in some of those hives may have died and been replaced by other swarms but many of these hives have comb in them that show they have been there for years without a break that allowed the moths and shb to clean up the old comb. One thought that comes to mind is that we as beekeepers are contradicting nature by placing a large number of hives in close proximity to each other. In nature you don't see feral hives located near one another. I think this makes it harder for hive pests to migrate from one hive to the other due to predation of the pests. When we place hives as close as we do its easier for the pests to spread without having to worry about predators getting them before arriving at the next hive. I know that to be profitable we need the hives where we can work them efficiently but maybe we can look for ways to increase the number of predators to these pests (if we can figure out what they are) into the areas where we keep our bees.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I think that I can say, without fear of contradiction, that Varroa has forced us all to have a truly profound understanding of Honeybee Biology.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What is the natural predator of Varroa? A virus? Is there a biological control?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Have you ever been bitten by a VSH bee? Ouch!

There has been some work on entomopathogens for Varroa treatment.

I don't know of any natural predators for Varroa. You'd probably have to send an expedition out to Asia to find any.

What ever happened to pseudo-scorpions? Or should I say, Chelifers.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...T+(05:00-07:00+EDT)+for+essential+maintenance


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Mites aren't much of an issue where I am. The only bees I have had that had problems with them were bees I bought and had shipped in.

Some of those African bees could be considered predators of VSH.


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

sqkcrk said:


> Shouldn't the ultimate goal be to not need to use any chemical mite control at all? Maybe there is a way we can address Varroa through management techniques. We already see benefits to the use of Drone Comb Manipulation as done by Roland.


One thing you have to say for mites is that they've forced people to try to understand the complexity of the hive inner ecosystem. When my grandfather was keeping bees back in the 50s, the general view was that beekeeping was a fairly simple and undemanding form of animal husbandry, compared to other livestock. I don't suppose any thoughtful person sees it that way these days.

The mites have certainly caused me to learn about the subject in much greater depth than I would have imagined possible a year ago.

Regarding that complexity, drone management is an example. It sure sounds like a plausible way to cut mite load. But according to the BeeInformed survey, it makes no difference in colony survival. What to believe? That same sort of thing seems to be true of many other cultural practices rumored to be effective... as well as, I'm starting to think, the genetic approach.

My opinion is that the solution to treatment free bees is going to turn out to be a whole bunch of little things, including genetics. There isn't going to be a silver bullet, and this is usually the case with living systems.

Complexity.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What is the natural predator of Varroa? 

Pseudo scorpions.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I know a lot of you have heard it before, but here is my unscientific idea about these mite resistant wild dark bees we find now in most parts of our country... I think they are remnants of the Brazilian invasion. As they headed north, they express the european genetics they have absorbed as they moved out of the tropical regions. That ends up being mostly black/dark bee traits. The only way to know would be to do test their MtDNA, but who can afford that? 

It would explain the mite resistance, and the sudden appearance of darker bees where lighter ones used to predominate - especially after the others were pretty much wiped out by varroa.

By the way - maybe we don't have as much varroa here in NM because we are crawling with Pseudo-scorpions? And just scorpions in general.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> Respectfully and truly curious, are their other livestock that a similar approach has been effective with? 

I've taken it with chickens. I never by medicated feed. I never medicate them. I used to dust them for lice, but they seem to do fine with dusting themselves with dust...

The more we don't take this approach the more we create animals who can't survive on their own and require our help...

> Michael Palmer has said that Kirk has had very high losses recently. Do you know the reason for this? 

I do not. However, I know that winter losses vary much from year to year depending on things like the length of winter (no cleansing flights and no days to rearrange stores), a failed fall flow or a good fall flow, and just how bitterly cold it gets and for how long. Also, in my experience until you either let the bees build their own comb or you get them on small cell, you will continue to lose bees to Varroa. Kirk's foundation is about 5.1 or 5.2mm. In my experience you don't get real Varroa control until you hit about 4.9mm or smaller in the core of the brood nest.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qw3eVjQPXQ

That's a pseudoscorpion eating Varroa mites.

Paul:

I think that those dark bees you're seeing may be the descendants of the bees introduced into New Spain by Cortez.

They certainly fit the description of Spanish bees.

They've probably been in the Sierra's for centuries.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> >What is the natural predator of Varroa?
> 
> Pseudo scorpions.


Were we to propogate them what would the negative impact be?


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

>Kirk's foundation is about 5.1 or 5.2mm. In my experience you don't get real Varroa control until you hit about 4.9mm or smaller in the core of the brood nest.

Every single cutout I have performed has had a worker cell size of 4.9mm or just under 5mm. Is this commonplace in your region?


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Pipiyolti - if you are using the wild bees here, you will more than likely never see mites as a problem - and yes, they are tiny. I have one cut-out going on just about 5 years - never treated for anything. Never feed them either. That is one BIG hive of bees too. They aren't always the most well behaved, but they are definite survivors. I have sold several splits of them to locals who want a bee that is workable, but doesn't require a lot of care - all with the caveat of I don't really know what they are. They are dark and overwinter here at 7-8000' really well.

Sqkcrk, you are probably right about the Cortez bees, but I have no proof other than circumstantial evidence.

By the way, you can come to my basement and catch all the pseudo scorpions and centipedes you could ever want.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Cortez bees? Did I mention them? I forget.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

I apologize - it was WLC.

Man you guys need real names, this letter thing is messing me up.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

My real name is at the bottom of every Post. My name is Mark. sqkcrk is my screen name. Squeak Creek w/ all the vowels removed. Squeak Creek Apiaries is my business' name.

WLC is his screen name and won't reveal his/her real name for personal security reasons. You'll have to go to him for anymore detail than that.


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Yeah, we thought about going with Skunky Acres for our bees, because that is what we call our place. It seems over-run with skunks. Thought it would be bad PR though. Went with a Western sort of theme.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Squeak Brook or Squeak River runs through our propertry.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Were we to propogate them what would the negative impact be? 

None that I've seen. I've seen a few around my hives on occasion. I think you just have to stop killing them... everything that kills Varroa will kill them...


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## Pipiyolti (Jun 27, 2013)

A deep full of composted mulch as a bottom might provide something desirable. I'm sure some beekeeper has tried it


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>A deep full of composted mulch as a bottom might provide something desirable. I'm sure some beekeeper has tried it

Sort of. I tried an open bottom over a box so the detritus could build up. I didn't see any difference in the health of the hive.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

frankthomas said:


> I am a first year beek and am fascinated by the no treatment approach. M Bushes ideas and others in this thread have real appeal. But it's scary to take that leap. Respectfully and truly curious, are their other livestock that a similar approach has been effective with? Is that approach different than if I were to stop using antibiotics or other medicines? These are honest questions.


I used to raise goats and every book you read and every vet you talk to says worm worm worm systimatically , I never did worm them if they got a high worm load to the point they were becoming anemic I would sell them to somoeone that didn't mind wormer in their program. I only bred from the ones that could handle a high worm load without effecting their health and eventually I stopped getting sick goats. What the guys who do worm as prevenatitive maintanance have found out that most of their meds are becoming worthless as the worms are becoming immune to them


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Every single cutout I have performed has had a worker cell size of 4.9mm or just under 5mm. Is this commonplace in your region? 

I typically see between 4.6 and 5.1mm in the core of the brood nest.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Couple good things varroa did here, was get rid of all the leave it alone beekeepers that spread AFB, and they also exterminated the AMM's that used to be a pain (literally).

People buy bees from me cos varroas killed their hives, puts money in my pocket although I feel real bad for the people, wish it wasn't that way. But it is.

Every cloud has a silver lining.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Outside of beekeeping, what role do they play?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

They fill a 'niche' as ectoparasites of Honeybees.

That's what they do.

Their purpose? Life.

It's safe to say that if Varroa never spilled over from Asian Honeybees into European Honeybees, they would have remained a footnote in an entomology journal.

But, they did spillover, and they carry viruses that are deadly to Honeybees.

You might as well ask, "What's the role of DWV?"


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## Father & Sons Apiary (Sep 4, 2013)

I like mites because I get free pulled out frames for splits :applause:


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

I like mites because threads about beekeeping topics that we all dispassionately agree on are usually pretty boring. That's just me, though, heh.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> threads about beekeeping topics that we all dispassionately agree on are usually pretty boring.

Have you seen the one about _grooved _vs _wedge _frame? 








http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?290616-Grooved-vs-Wedge


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## imthegrumpyone (Jun 29, 2013)

What ever happen to "Only the strong survive" ? And how did bees survive all these centuries with our intervention ? We constantly "fool with Mother Nature" and not all times to the better.


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

Varroa and diseases of the honeybee cause me to pay much more attention to the bees than I might have if keeping bees was something that required little effort. The threat of losses caused me to learn to rear queens and split hives and end up with more hives than I ever intended. 
During this experience of learning to keep bees I have met other beekeepers and interested other people in beekeeping and shared honey with them etc. etc. Instead of having 2 hives like maybe I would have ? not sure, now I have over twenty. I pay more attention to the bees. 

I tried oxalic acid one year just to see and had a good result but splitting the hives each spring seems to knock the mites back to where I didn't see any mites after the summer. I aim to do treatment free bees by just never treating and keeping working with the bees that survive. Perhaps it will work perhaps it won't but I will need more time to see how it goes. In the meantime I will just keep moving forward with the treatment free plan. 

If we had a time machine and could go back in time and eliminate varroa mites the present would be different and maybe honeybees would be worse off. I might not even have bees let alone over twenty hives. I don't like seeing mites on my bees and I think of them as pests just as this section of Beesource refers to them as but perhaps there is more good in them than I realize. The threat of losing honeybees has definitely raised awareness of their importance as others have mentioned. Thanks for forcing me to think about this more deeply Mark. The connectedness of things is amazing.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It is VW, isn't it. And how little we understand. 

I had a person last night ask me about whether I noticed weather patterns and honey production relationships. I can imagine they are there, but cause and effect are difficult for me to see and especially how to use them to decide how to manage my hives. 

Seems like there isn't enough recognizable data. Or too much maybe. And what of it is meaningful? It's interesting and mindboggling.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

As Edwin Starr said in his song "War" ................ absolutely ........nuffin! Mites mean the destruction of innocent lives.......... honeybees!


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

It is all amazing. In the smallest little spaces there are cells moving around and in the far reaches of space I believe there is life out there as well. All of these things are part of life and if we went back in time and changed things we might not exist to even need to worry about a mite. Parasites exist for various reasons according to a couple of internet searches I just did. It is amazing that Varroa mites spread so much. I am wondering if after enough years of new home reared queens I could one day end up insulated from them or if over time maybe mites will get there own health issue and become less common.

Here are two interesting articles on parasites.

http://www.ehow.com/about_5149803_purpose-do-ticks-serve-ecosystem.html

http://www.ehow.com/info_8754287_functions-parasites.html


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

WLC said:


> sqkcrk:
> 
> We know a lot about Varroa. And, there's more on the way.
> 
> ...


I was wondering about that just yesterday........How long will it take the bees to develop some kind of immunity to the dozen or so viruses vectored by the varroa mite in the hive?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Personally, I think a very long time.

Be aware these viruses are not new to bees they have been with bees since time immemorial, and bees have not defeated them, they have just lived with them & kept the effects (mostly) low. Just, things are worse now cos these viruses are being injected directly into bees _en mass_, by varroa mites.

It has been shown there can be thousands, or even a million times more of these viruses in a hive that is badly infected with varroa, than a hive with negligible varroa. which means a much greater pool of viruses for new variants etc to be selected from, and in theory, gives advantage in the arms race, to the viruses.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Personally, I think a very long time.......


I'm sorry to say I think you are correct Oldtimer, and I must say, always enjoy and respect your posts here. 

So, what has the Russian honeybee done to accommodate the mites, has anything been demonstrated scientifically?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>So, what has the Russian honeybee done to accommodate the mites

Probably gather more propolis... the bees don't have much of an immune system. They borrow theirs from the plants...


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> >So, what has the Russian honeybee done to accommodate the mites
> 
> Probably gather more propolis... the bees don't have much of an immune system. They borrow theirs from the plants...


interesting. in the short time i've had with just a few hives i've noticed that my strongest and most productive colonies also are heavy propolizers, and just the opposite for the weaker/nonproductive ones.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

imthegrumpyone said:


> What ever happen to "Only the strong survive" ? And how did bees survive all these centuries with our intervention ?


Well, "only the strong" is a bit of an oversimplification. I don't suppose many would think white-tail deer are stronger than, say, grey wolves; but presently the deer are over-populated, and the wolves are mostly all gone. Does "only the strong" ever stop you from taking your dog or cat to the vet when they're sick or injured?

Bees and humans go back a couple thousand years; we've had a direct hand in their genetic development all that time, and have personally carried them from their natural ranges to every corner of the world. People and bees are serious BFF's. It's human nature to try and look out for our friends, as it were.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Does "only the strong" ever stop you from taking your dog or cat to the vet when they're sick or injured?

It would if you were trying to help the species.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >So, what has the Russian honeybee done to accommodate the mites
> 
> Probably gather more propolis... the bees don't have much of an immune system. They borrow theirs from the plants...


What about their huge propensity to swarm?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Webster claims that infestation by varroa is a great thing. Makes our bees better bees. 

Whatever


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Kirk, not Merriam, I assume.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Michael Palmer said:


> What about their huge propensity to swarm?


It would seem pretty hard to refute that conclusion.


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## linn (Nov 19, 2010)

I saw two bees "fighting" on a landing board this summer. One bee was biting the other bee on the thorax. The bees separated. The bee being bitten on the thorax returned to the other bee. Was this a display of grooming or something else? The concept of hygienic behavior in regards to mites is interesting-especially if this is done outside of the hive. The guard bee could have easily not let the mite ridden bee enter.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> Webster claims that infestation by varroa is a great thing. Makes our bees better bees.
> 
> Whatever


Mr. Webster is welcome to have the betterest bees of all if that's what he wants.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Well in nature when pressures occur like varroa this results in the dying of all the weak stock. It breeds a better bee by selection. Just like using some chemical control can make resistant mites that are tougher over a time.

Beekeepers are still breeding weak bees in the eyes of nature. Face it our bees have a crutch.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> >What is the natural predator of Varroa?
> 
> Pseudo scorpions.


Really? You mean those 3-5mm long insects with scissors? 

These was recently a public query for people by one scientist to tell all pseudo scorpion discoveries. I e-mailed her to tell that in our house there is living one species. She was actually looking for those living out in the forests...


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## Paul McCarty (Mar 30, 2011)

Juhani, we have some out here in the desert that are about 3 inches long, tan, and totally evil. I would NOT want them in my hives or anywhere near them. Not sure they would go for varroa, they would probably just eat all the bees, like the black widows and scorpions do. Evil creatures, not quite "centipede" evil, but evil none-the-less.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Kamon Reynolds said:


> Well in nature when pressures occur like varroa this results in the dying of all the weak stock. It breeds a better bee by selection. Just like using some chemical control can make resistant mites that are tougher over a time.
> 
> Beekeepers are still breeding weak bees in the eyes of nature. Face it our bees have a crutch.


Amen.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Really? You mean those 3-5mm long insects with scissors? 

Yes.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

Kamon Reynolds said:


> Well in nature when pressures occur like varroa this results in the dying of all the weak stock. It breeds a better bee by selection.


And sometimes in nature the "weak stock" is so much of the overall stock that the "better" stock that remains is less than the species' minimum viable population, so the entire species all dies anyway.

Other times in nature, species survive by depending on other, completely different species for various things - protection, reproduction, or what-not. Many flowering plants cannot survive at all unless insects pollinate them, for one extremely potent example. With bees specifically, Michael Bush has provided an exceptional example above - bees, largely lacking immuno-defenses of their own, gather propolis from trees and plants to perform an antibiotic and antiseptic role in their own hives.

Humans are capable of similar interactions. I am persistently mystified by the inability of so many people to understand or concede that humans, as a naturally-evolved and existing species on Earth, is capable of entering into symbiotic relationships with other species - or that such relationships can be anything other than parasitic and harmful to the non-human actor. What nonsense. For instance, there are what's considered "beneficial" bacteria within our bodies that take a minute amount of the food we eat, and in exchange secrete chemicals our body uses, or which predate other more harmful microorganisms that we would have trouble dealing with otherwise. 

Our working to control varroa mites and other bee diseases in exchange for using the excess honey, wax, or other products that bees produce, is just another example of this kind of relationship. It is veridically no different from bees using saps and fluids from plants to act as their exo-immune system. In a world where they could talk, would you counsel plants to stop giving bees the materials with which they make propolis, in the hopes that the bees would evolve their own better internal immunological machinery and survive without the plants' help? Would you counsel the bees to stop eating pollen and let those lazy flowers learn how to reproduce on their own?


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