# Glenn VSH Queens...off-shoot of the VSH vs MH thread



## rkr (Oct 30, 2008)

Originally I sent this pm to Bud D but I am also interested in the answer from those who have _actually_ raise VSH bees and more specifically Glenn Apiary breeder queens. No hearsay please

How many years can I expect a Glenn Apiary breeder queens to last? One yr.? two? I have heard from one mentor that the queens from Glenn are not full of semen like a production queen and "poop-out" more quickly. I have no problem with this as they are selling "breeder" queens and at a low price compared to others. So please don't think am putting down their product!! I have only one source of info on this and He bought one bunch of queens 6-7 yrs ago, so it's not fare to judge on one experience.

I am interested in the pure VSH trait as a way to introduce this trait through open mated queens and drones out there doin' what they do best!
Is it difficult to keep a pure VSH hive up and running for several seasons? 

Do they need a transplant of brood from time to time to keep them strong? 

I was thinking if they could just "fend for themselves",having a hive in the yard would be an excellent idea, for bees in my area, both in the hives, and feral. Maybe as a "pet" hive to snag a frame of eggs from every spring, not expecting to harvest honey or an observation hive to do the same.


RKR


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

I usally get some in about July and raise some in the fall and winter the breeders and raise some in early spring. You are into your breeder hive some much some times something happens and the next thing you know she is missing and emergance queen cells are started.

If they are inseminated good they can keep there hive going good. But I just keep mine in a 5 fr 1/2 length Nuc box full deepth


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

I have had two of Glenn's breeder queens, a Russian and a VSH. The Russian lasted 15 months before being superseded and the VSH 4 months. The VSH never had more than 4 frames of brood at any one time and needed to have frames added to maintain it's population. The Russian was as good as any open mated queen as I ever had.

If you don't plan on raising quees from the VSH breeder queen it would be less expensive to use an open mated queen from a line of bees that have proven VSH traits.


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## rkr (Oct 30, 2008)

AR Beekeeper said:


> If you don't plan on raising queens from the VSH breeder queen it would be less expensive to use an open mated queen from a line of bees that have proven VSH traits.


Not really "raising queens" as such and defiantly not for re-sale, I just want tinker with it. I was thinking of using that VSH hive to be the source of eggs for queen rearing for splits. I will probably end up with exactly what you said. If I have 2 half VSH hives, that should be a good start toward establishing this trait in my area.
RKR


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

I tried one of Glenn's VSH-VSH queens last year. She started off with a spotty pattern ( I never did determine if it was her eggs or capped brood) but she did get superceded within 2 months.

I have heard that this is a problem with the VSH-VSH queens in general. I have been thinking of a retrial using a VSH-Russian cross.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

I have never acquired a glenn vsh queen but I do maintain several other breeds.

my good neighbor down the road tell me that even they have problems maintaining a ai/ii queen beyond one year. most of the glenn ai queens I have had here have great difficulty even maintaining an illinois depth box at the peak of the season. all are started out in small (4 or 5 frame) nuc boxes.


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## bee_wrangler (Jan 21, 2007)

Imust have got a good one! She was introduced to a 5 frame nuc about june 1 and i grafted off of her in june and july. she kept going and is in a strong hive ready for winter. 

Dan


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## BosqueBees (Aug 10, 2009)

I tried two VSH's from Glenn. Introduced in push in cage to 5 frame nuc in May. Queens have a great pattern, built up slow (which I expect in a II queen), but ended up in 3 mediums well suited for winter. Will see how they overwinter but are going in looking good. So far happy with outcrosses to my stock.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

rkr said:


> Not really "raising queens" as such and defiantly not for re-sale, I just want tinker with it. I was thinking of using that VSH hive to be the source of eggs for queen rearing for splits. I will probably end up with exactly what you said. If I have 2 half VSH hives, that should be a good start toward establishing this trait in my area.
> RKR


Establishing VSH requires more than 'introducing a trait'. 

You need to make the decision to systematically terminate 'weak' colonies and multiply from 'strong' colonies - and make that a permanent practice. 

If you've more than a few hives you don't actually need to introduce the trait at all - it will be present in your own bees, and, since they are acclimatised to your area, they will make your best foundation stock.

The 'VSH' trait, along with other characters that give a degree of resistance is present in all bee populations. All you have to do is give it a chance to come forward. You could say there are two golden rules to achieve this:

1) Get in the habit of breeding for resistance as above.

2) Cut all treatments to an absolute minimum, and stop completely as soon as you can.

Some people have found that natural cell helps the process along, probably by allowing those bees that have found a defence through making smaller cells to flourish. In fact the more hands-off you can be, the faster you will get strong (ie resistant bees)

The reason for the first golden rule is obvious, for the second less so. 

The problem is; every time you treat you maintain unsuccessful, unadapted, weak (... call 'em what you like) genetic combinations, which _then send their genetic material into the next generation_.

So what you've done is bred more weak bees, which will tend to require treatment just the same.. and so it will continue, except the mites will adapt to your treatment and you'll have to find another.

The easy way to get to grips with the theory is to learn about the connection between natural selection and normal everyday husbandry. In the wild the stronger of any generation flourish and multiply, while the weaker tend to lose out. As any new predator (including pests and diseases) come along, the species has to adapt - to find ways to overcome the new threat. And it does so by the simple mechanism - stronger individuals tend to make for stronger offspring. So the strong pass on their genetic combinations, while the weak die off.

Once you understand Nature's fabulous trick, you can see how it applies to any kind of organism (including bees) and you can predict what effect any action you plan is like to have on the health of the local genetics.

And, big bonus, you can learn how to keep animals health _properly_. permanantly, and without having to buy drugs or mess about with tricks and manipulations. You have The Art.

Mike


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## rkr (Oct 30, 2008)

Mike B


rkr said:


> I am also interested in the answer from those who have _actually_ raise VSH bees and more specifically Glenn Apiary breeder queens. No hearsay please


This post is more about the Glenn queens, how long they last, and how to manage a VSH Hive than VSH or what folks think about them.
RKR


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## Flyman (Jun 11, 2007)

Bought a Glenn VSH back in May. Introduced into a strong split and she started laying right away. Is still a great producer and the hive is strong. Hoping to get one more year (or at least the spring) out of her. The intent is to raise queens from the VSH and let them open mate with my hives which is a mixture of MH, Russian and Goldline queens. Only want the VSH trait as a basis for her other daughters. No complaints here.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

rkr said:


> Mike B
> 
> 
> This post is more about the Glenn queens, how long they last, and how to manage a VSH Hive than VSH or what folks think about them.
> RKR


Sure. But talk about VSH strains that seems to assume you can expect to import them and have their traits spread in the local population without making changes to managment techniques risks wasting a whole lot of queens and rather defeats the purpose of the program.

The idea is to _establish the traits_ in your apiary, and in the surrounding countryside. That has little to do how long each queen lasts, and everything to do with how you take care of the genetic material she brings in. 

Simply importing VSH queens or nucs and replacing them when necessary the same way is pointless - you might as well just carry on medicating. 

The idea promoted by Glenne Apiaries and everyone else involved in the movement is to learn how to bring the resistance in _and keep it_ - thus supplying a permanant solution to the problem of varroa/non-resistant bees.

So managing a VSH hive (which is what you say the thread is about) is about trying to preserve and multiply the VSH population. Specifically that means more than anything not preserving ill-adapted individuals by treating in any way.

Mike


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Once you understand Nature's fabulous trick, 

It's AKA survival of the fittest and and a deep cut in the bank account!
Last year the UK ran out of honey for the fall hollidays.  I wonder why?
I run 100% Glenn Apiaries stock and own at least one of their many breeder queens.
breeder queens are not intended for being managed like honey producing hives.
I have had a few last for more than two,2, years!

Regards,
Ernie


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## rkr (Oct 30, 2008)

mike bispham said:


> you might as well just carry on medicating.


I don't medicate and my bees have not had medication for at least five yrs. So I must already have some resistance in the mix. I want to bolster that resitance in my two hives and like fly man has said use the VSH bees that prove their ability to raise queens for my own hives and be mated with my bees who have, thus far, held their own.


So you assume a bit to much.....again



mike bispham said:


> But talk about VSH strains that seems to assume you can expect to import them and have their traits spread in the local population.


Isn't that your "big thing" Mike? That any hive of bees that are treated in any way will "soil" the local stock with their inferior genetics and bring down the whole community of bees? 
Well you can't have it both ways Mike. You must either accept that breeding resistant bees will help the bees or not. You should not assume to speak to me about my management practices as you have never seen them or discussed them with me.



mike bispham said:


> The idea is to _establish the traits_ in your apiary, and in the surrounding countryside. That has little to do how long each queen lasts, and everything to do with how you take care of the genetic material she brings in.



Anyone that has set down and thought about the goals they have for their apiary knows that you have a budget regardless of if it is a hobby, a sideline or a business. How long a $150 dollar queen lasts has everything to do with the goal of "establish the traits" in the real world. I want the best bang for my buck, yes my buck, not a theoretical buck. When you step outside the world of a theoretical bee man, you must figure the cost of breeding the bees you want to have, the cost of the hive parts and the labor involved in reaching the goal. What you can afford and how long it will take you to reach that goal with the resources available ($!!, Time, Effort). Just like any other stock. When you just dispense advice, you do not. It is an irritant to have someone preachs a program that they have no sweat, heartache, or money in themselves and then tell you that you are not doing it right. How are your VSH Hives doing? If you can tell me this then post again if not please restrain yourself.

Thanks RKR "the nit"


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

rkr said:


> Isn't that your "big thing" Mike? That any hive of bees that are treated in any way will "soil" the local stock with their inferoir genetics and bring down the whole comminity of bees?


Hi Rod,

First, I came here mainly to irritate you as payback for your rudeness on another thread. But my suggestion is that we are on the same side. So lets make peace and talk about the thing that interests us both.

Yes, that is 'my big thing'. That is what the biology tells us to anticipate, and it offers to explain a great deal about the current situation. It fits right in with all the evidence I've come across through talking with hundreds of people on the web and off it. If you'd like me to elaborate here I will.



rkr said:


> Well you can't have it both ways Mike. You must either accept that breeding resitant bees will help the bees or not.


I do of course accept that breeding resistant bees is everything. But when you treat you actively and powerfully sabotage the mechanism by which bees gain and maintain resistance. That is insane - you have to agree. But its not obvious. As I said above, if you'd like me to elaborate on the reasoning behind that position, I'll be happy to.



rkr said:


> You should not assume to speak to me about my managemnt practises as you have never seen them or discussed them with me.


You are right and I apologise. However, I can make general statements about certain practices. For example, I can say anyone who medicates is undercutting the development of resistance in their locality. If that applies to you, it applies to you. 




rkr said:


> Anyone that has set down and thought about the goals they have for there apiary knows that you have a buget regardless of if it is a hobby, a sideline or a buissness. How long a $150 dollar queen lasts has everything "establish the traits" in the real world.


Understanding the mechanisms allows you to get the best bang for your buck by getting what you want in the longer term. Doing things right means you only need one VSH queen - doing them wrongly means you'll need a new one every 2 or 3 years. Do you see that?



rkr said:


> It is an iritant to have some one preach a program that they have no sweat, heartache ,or money in themselves and then tell you that you are not doing it right.
> 
> Thanks Rod Richter


Sure it is. But I'm not completely ignorant of the subject. And take a look at my website and ask yourself how much blood might have sweated putting that together. I've spent 15 years putting together my understanding, and 25 years in the bee world. And you were happy to dismiss me out of hand because I'm not currently keeping bees?

No one pays me - I do this because I love bees. I'm not trying to sell anything. And here, on this thread, as well as trying to irritate you (which I'm not anymore) I'm trying to help anyone reading do things right, make a success of their investments. As I say, we're on the same side here - lets try to help each-other, and help others in the process.

Cheers,

Mike


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Simply importing VSH queens or nucs and replacing them when necessary the same way is pointless - you might as well just carry on medicating. 

*Pointless*
How about you educating me/us about the specific genetics that involve the VSH trait,s!
Ernie


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

First, Hi Earnie! Great to speak with you!

I think you want me to justify that remark, yes?

If the trait does not move out successfully into future generations, then when the queen dies your investment dies with her, yes?

So you've spent maybe $150 dollars, and saved maybe $20-40 on treatments? Not a successful investment at all.

That is pointless, no?

So you want your future generations to carry the trait, no? You want the trait to spead out into the surrounding country, into the wild bees, into other bees in your apiary, and become entrenched... Yes?

So if some act in your method acts as, if you like, gatekeeper to that happening, that's an important thing to know about and deal with. You agree?

Let's see if we're in tune this far.

All best

Mike


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Let's see if we're in tune this far.

Not even!
Her's a spot of tea for you.
I can graft 1,000's of breeder queen daughters and each one carries the VSH trait.
In about three years i can have the VSH trait flooding the DC, drone congregation areas!
Ernie


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

BEES4U said:


> Let's see if we're in tune this far.
> 
> Not even!
> Her's a spot of tea for you.
> ...


If you can steam ahead like that you are almost certain to be successful! 

Not everyone can though. People with just have few hives, who plan to buy in just one or two VSH queens and carry on medicating the others, will likely fail.

But I get the feeling I'm preaching to the converted here. 

Mike


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Stay on topic, quite arguing over each other's experience and keep away from making personal remarks.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

rkr said:


> This post is more about the Glenn queens, how long they last, and how to manage a VSH Hive than VSH or what folks think about them.
> RKR


I've been introducing Glenn VSH stock into my apiaries for 6 years. The plan was to see mite resistance immediately...but I'm not foolish, and I know the reality of bees and bee breeding. 

I didn't see any immediate improvement. Plenty of crashing colonies and PMS. But over the last couple years, I am seeing changes. Bees are pulling more brood out. Colonies are in better shape in August and September than before. 

Introduction of any recessive trait will take time. To change an area like mine..2 counties/2 states/34 apiaries takes years. The trait has to be introduced into the drone stock. Unacceptable bees need to be eliminated...which also takes time. By requeening and re-stocking the mating area with daughters of VSHxVSH breeders, and establishing your mating yards in that area, the conversion is possible. 

I have a valley in the northern Champlain valley where I have located my mating nucs. At present, I'm running about 500 mating nucs at this one location...in groups of 125. Surrounding the mating yards are 4 of my production yards and 1 belonging to the Mraz's....longtime breeders of local stock. As colonies need to be requeened or deadouts replaced...replacements are made with VSHxVSH nucs raised the year before. These are selected by quality of queen and performance of bees. The stock for the queen cells is either VSHxCarni, Carni, or breeders selected from production colonies by performance.

Trying to change the bees in your area when you maintain an apiary of only a few colonies is fruitless. Mating is way out of your control. Rather than buying a Glenn breeder, you should be buying mated queens from someone running a sensible breeding program, incorporating VSH stock into thier bees. Leave the breeding to those that have the resources to raise quality stock.


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

I know the reality of bees and bee breeding.

Very well stated and documented!

Another Modern Day Queen Breeder,
Ernie


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

To Michael Palmer, Bees4U and other experienced breeders who can give me good advice:

I keep between 15/20 hives and sell honey locally and a couple of hives each year. I have no plans to get larger-I just really enjoy doing it. I haven't treated in 4 years & don't lose many and when I have checked for varroa I count very few. I just got tired of the time & expense of treating and stopped. I accepted the original losses. My bees are from some Italians I have had for 12 years. The only other beekeepers around have fewer than I do. 

I want to improve by buying a couple of VSH/Minn Hyg queens from an area breeder and also by obtaining ferals (they have proven they can survive varroa on their own). I want to use the VSH/MH queens as the queen mothers. I want to try to have as many quality drones as possible by putting drone cells in my 3 best hives and when drone eggs are laid, move them to my other hives in the hopes that the other hives' queens will not lay many more drone eggs.

I assume I may have to do this over again for a few times before I really see an improvement in my bees. Also, it would help a lot to offer my queens to neighbors who are keeping bees that require treatments.

Does this plan make sense?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Makes sense to me, although I have to ask...your bees sound pretty good to me. Do they winter well, and produce good crops? The bees or their isolation has enabled them to withstand varroa so far.

If so, I surely wouldn't want to change everything all at once. I like the idea of trying a few different stocks each year. Evaluate them before harvesting their drones. Decide what it is you want from your bees and go in that direction.

Sounds to me you'd like to make a little honey and have a little fun. Also sounds like your doin it.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Aww, come on Barry, let at least one of my posts through.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

In early spring (I think it was March if I remember correctly) of 2008 I received a queen from Glenns that was a late year 2007 VSHxMHI queen. I kept her in a single and then into a double 8 frame deep, with queen excluder between the deeps but it really was not needed as they always seemed to keep the honey coming in stored up in the top box with brood down below, just like us beeks like it! 

I gave her to my neighbor who over wintered her (her second winter, 2008/09) and she's done well and now has a daughter with her, both laying in the hive. This will be her third winter coming up. I figure the bees wanted the daughter as insurance for over winter, and will probably replace the older queen by spring, but I'm just supposing here. But it seems to me this has been a great queen and is now all the more better because of the proper supercedure tendencies to keep the line alive and well going into the queens third winter.

VSHxMHI queens will throw pure VSH drones and a mix of VSHxMHI daughters so should be a good addition to any beeyard for drone production as well as queen rearing. Maybe start off early spring raising daughters while having drone comb in other of your good hives. Next round, switch it and have the breeder queen with drone comb to give pure VSH drones in the area and raise some queens from your other strong hives.


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## SoCal (Nov 3, 2003)

Iv'e had really good results from Glenn Apiaries for the past eight years. Have been using the SMR/VSH Russians and Carniolians. I use the first year queens for queen production and second year queens for drone production. Have had two last into the third year. Anything over two years seems to be a bonus. Like Ray said, even if they superceed the second year, you still have viable genetic drone production. Good luck.

W Scott.


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## rkr (Oct 30, 2008)

heaflaw said:


> I keep between 15/20 hives and sell honey locally and a couple of hives each year.


Heaflaw, your operation sounds exactly like my 5 yr goal! Next year I hope to bring 6 hives into the winter. I also want to improve my stock, by buying a couple of VSH queens and by obtaining ferals who have proven they can survive varroa on their own. 
I was not sure how to approach that goal, thus this post.

I had all of the pieces of information; but I couldn't quite piece together the puzzle. This last bit of information is wonderfully helpful!! I knew that drones don’t have a “father” but I never thought about the implications of the queens 'breeding' has in the yard, and in the DCC until just now!!



Michael Palmer said:


> Rather than buying a Glenn breeder, you should be buying mated queens from someone running a sensible breeding program, incorporating VSH stock into their bees. Leave the breeding to those that have the resources to raise quality stock.





RayMarler said:


> VSHxMHI queens will throw pure VSH drones and a mix of VSHxMHI daughters so should be a good addition to any beeyard for drone production as well as queen rearing. Maybe start off early spring raising daughters while having drone comb in other of your good hives. Next round, switch it and have the breeder queen with drone comb to give pure VSH drones in the area and raise some queens from your other strong hives.


The light bulb popped on and the bells went off!!

I am going to start to research quality VSH based queens for at least part of my expansion next year. That way they will “throw” pure VSH drones and ½ VSH daughters. That is just brilliant, and the exact key to the door I wanted to open! 

Thanks to _ALL_ of you for your input, questions and answers on this topic, it brought about a moment of clarity. 
Carry on, who knows what I will learn next!!

RKR


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Bee videos*

Sorry, the videos are lost in cyber space.
Ernie


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

rkr,
Here's some up-dated data:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091002103210.htm

Bees Fight Back Against Colony Collapse Disorder: Some Honey Bees Toss Out Varroa Mites
ScienceDaily (Oct. 5, 2009) — Honey bees are now fighting back aggressively against Varroa mites, thanks to Agricultural Research Service (ARS) efforts to develop bees with a genetic trait that allows them to more easily find the mites and toss them out of the broodnest.
Regards,
Ernie


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

rkr said:


> Heaflaw, your operation sounds exactly like my 5 yr goal! Next year I hope to bring 6 hives into the winter. I also want to improve my stock, by buying a couple of VSH queens and by obtaining ferals who have proven they can survive varroa on their own.
> I was not sure how to approach that goal, thus this post.
> 
> I had all of the pieces of information; but I couldn't quite piece together the puzzle. This last bit of information is wonderfully helpful!! I knew that drones don’t have a “father” but I never thought about the implications of the queens 'breeding' has in the yard, and in the DCC until just now!!
> ...


RKR,

Not that I am a great expert (I think a lot of my success has been luck), but if I had it to do over again, I would have culled my undesirable hives by requeening much sooner than I did. I had some hot hives and swarmy hives that I kept far too long. Those genetics are now out there in my other hives and most importantly in the feral and neighbors population. Those genetics will keep popping up in my hives through drones mating with my queens for years to come, even if do everything perfectly from now on with buying and raising good quality queens. 

I know you & Mike Bispham got into a big argument, but he is really right. Mike Palmer & Ray Marler either say or imply that in posts in this thread. Queens mate with whatever drones get to them first. You can hopefully control your own drones and possibly your neighbors, but it takes years and years to have an effect on the feral drones that are going to mate with your queens, especially for beekeepers of our size.

Good luck


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Queens mate with whatever drones get to them first. 

Not really.
It's thought that the queen can be selective and in that selection goes survival of the fittest1
i have some data on this topic that I can post later.
Ernie


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I thought I once heard that queens are most likely to mate with drones with whom they have the LEAST shared genetic traits. This promotes diversity. It is NOT a pure mathematical chance. I may be wrong.


Roland


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## rkr (Oct 30, 2008)

Actually, Mike and I agree on many, if not most his/contemporary theory's, and I do plan to manage my hives in the way you, Mike B, Mike Palmer & Ray Marler and many others have suggested. Culling the weak for the good of the whole. 

It's important to be able to seek your own path, and even travel a short while down the wrong one so that you know the right one is right!! I started this year planning to treat for everything, I have evolved in a short time to a position of not treating for anything,_ I still waffle a bit from time to time_ it is so tempting to do so. Next I need to quit "helping" so much with feeding and manipulation. 

But you know how it is, you look out there at the hives and you don't want to lose them,and you worry. You want to do the best thing, it's hard to realize that sometimes, in fact most of the time, the best thing is to give them a good start, "then just let the bees be bees".

I am thankful for a place where you can think out loud and figure out your own path using a broad base of knowledge from both large and small beekeepers, and yes,....even academia. 

Thanks again,
RKR


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

rkr said:


> Next I need to quit "helping" so much with feeding and manipulation.
> 
> But you know how it is, you look out there at the hives and you don't want to lose them,and you worry. You want to do the best thing, it's hard to realize that sometimes, in fact most of the time, the best thing is to give them a good start, "then just let the bees be bees".


bad years call for feeding and nothing is wrong with that, if you are just looking for the best foraging hives per selection process then that wouldn't be hard to figure out if you have multiple hives during flows. I understand not treating bee's with chemicals and all but not feeding or manipulating your hives I dont understand, why have bee's if your not going to work them and enjoy them and what they provide. feeding has nothing to do with going chemical free in my book, if you dont feed your hive during bad years then why not just kill them in the fall and save the comb for next seasons packages. I guest people keep bee's differently and I have no problems with that but sometimes I just never will understand why.


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## rkr (Oct 30, 2008)

TwT said:


> but not feeding or manipulating your hives I dont understand, why have bee's if your not going to work them and enjoy them and what they provide.


I should explain. I tried to split a hive 40 days ago when I found two queens, 5 days later the "new" queen was gone and I had to do a combine. I mashed quite a few bees. That hive is just now getting back in order. I think the 2 queen problem was caused by my moving frames and supers around in the brood nest and feeding some Maga-bee in Sept, when they had plenty of pollen. I am pretty sure I caused that debacle. Kinda' rookie mistakes. Being to "helpful" in spite of sound advice not too. 
That's the kind of thing I need to throttle back, not the normal inspection, nutrition and management items.
RKR


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

TwT said:


> bad years call for feeding and nothing is wrong with that,


Speaking strictly from my location and a non-commercial beekeeper, there is no such thing as a bad year that requires feeding. Even in the worst of years, it comes down to how much of the stores the bees put up will I take for myself. I may take less one year over another, but I will never take so much honey that I then have to turn around and feed. I know people in some locations have to feed back if they want any honey at all, but I suspect that is not the norm.


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## TwT (Aug 5, 2004)

Barry said:


> Speaking strictly from my location and a non-commercial beekeeper, there is no such thing as a bad year that requires feeding. Even in the worst of years, it comes down to how much of the stores the bees put up will I take for myself. I may take less one year over another, but I will never take so much honey that I then have to turn around and feed. I know people in some locations have to feed back if they want any honey at all, but I suspect that is not the norm.


I can understand where you are coming from but different styles come into play here, I know a good many that say honey cost more than sugar so they take all they can and then have to feed, then you have others that only take what they need to fill orders then leave the rest with the bee's and on bad years have to feed, then like you said there are other that take what they can so the bee's have enough for winter, thats hard to do here at times because we havent had a fall flow in about 4 years, if we have a poor spring flow (in my location) and if we can afford to take any honey we have to remember we have 3-4 month dearth before we find out if we have a fall flow, the last few years I might would have to feed in the fall even if I didn't take any honey. I know one beekeeper that normally gets about 80 drums of honey a year and this is part of his income, this year he only got 10 drums, I would call that a bad year.

Guest I am off topic, sorry!!


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

How does VSH and SMR apply to the prior postings?

Ernie


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## jdpro5010 (Mar 22, 2007)

t: Go Ernie!


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

rkr said:


> Actually, Mike and I agree on many, if not most his/contemporary theory's, and I do plan to manage my hives in the way you, Mike B, Mike Palmer & Ray Marler and many others have suggested. Culling the weak for the good of the whole.
> 
> It's important to be able to seek your own path, and even travel a short while down the wrong one so that you know the right one is right!! I started this year planning to treat for everything, I have evolved in a short time to a position of not treating for anything,_ I still waffle a bit from time to time_ it is so tempting to do so. Next I need to quit "helping" so much with feeding and manipulation.
> 
> ...


Glad to be at peace Rod! 

I think my message comes across as a bit multifaceted and unfocussed at times, and that leads to confusion. I'd like to restate what I think is a critical part, and why, and ask the rest of you if you agree. 

Rod pointed out that my 'thing' is that treatments are a bad idea - and he's right. If I had a chance to start again on this thread, what I would have said was; please don't think you can buy VSH queens and carry on medicating when there seems to be a need, and think that the VSH traits will survive for more than a generation. And hope that you would ask me to explain why I believed that was so.

This business of treating is, I know, only a part of a much larger story. But as other have pointed out, establishing VSH (or 'adapted') bees in the locality is really what the program is about. We don't want to have to keep buying in new queens every generation or two, because the trait has been lost - we want to fix it in the local population, and do that nationwide - and then the problem is fixed.

What this entails is getting the right genetics in the first place, and then keeping them high in the population. In order to do the first you can buy in VSH queens, or you can breed up resistance from your own stocks - if you have enough. If you are lucky there will be adapted wild bees around to help you. In order to do the second you have to _keep on breeding the traits up._ That means both permanantly selecting positively, and that means especially _not_ breeding from weak stocks. 

_And that means never medicating_ 

Medicating/treating weak bees throws a fatal spanner in the mechanism that exists between the generations. The single essential trick, played both by nature and by traditional husbandry, is selection of the fittest and elimination of the weakest. Helping weak individuals stay alive, which then go on to throw their genes into the mix, is the worst possible thing you can do.

This standard husbandry for all cases; but in the case of bees and VSH it is still more critical. This is because the VSH genes are recessive. What that means is that every time a non-VSH bee mates with a VSH bee, the result is _always_ a non-VSH bee. Not 50/50 - _never_. I haven't tried to do the math, but I reckon every duff hive that is maintained can, all else being equal, sabotage at least two, three, four colonies in the next generation. 

The hive you helped, needed that help because either the queen, or an insufficient number of the sperm she carried, did not have the right gene. And in medicating it, and allowing its drones to fly, and perhaps a new queen to be born, you tip a finely balanced scale that regulates the health of the local population in the wrong direction. And in the mechanism of health, that finely-balanced scale is everything. Get it right, resistance goes up, get it wrong, resistance goes down.

Now; the reason I go on and on and on about this is because I believe that systematic medication of the kind that larely rules these days, is not just unhelpful, but is actually _almost the whole cause_ of what has gone wrong. Worldwide bees have failed to adapt because beekeepers - encouraged by chemical companies - have adapted precisely the wrong strategies. Instead of breeding their way toward heath, they've tried to medicate their way out of trouble. 

I'd like all beekeepers to know about this - not just those already interested in VSH stock. Usually of course I'm trying to talk to people who are totally baffled by the whole idea that not medicating is a better plan than medicating, and it is hard to know how or where to start to explain. And as often as not, it doesn't come off well.

Anyway: all this of course applies just as much to holders of VSH stock as anyone else. You will have duds - nature produces duds as a matter of course. You must requeen or let them go - but never medicate. That just very rapidly undoes all the good you did in buying in VSH stock and in doing that bit of selection. 

Does that stack up for you folks?

Mike


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Hi--reading this thread has been interesting Thanks for the time you posters have put in.

Regarding general selection in breeding, there are always exceptions and combnations that are extremely valuable--
*having enough animals to select from *is the key to sucessfull progress in breeding populations. 




mike bispham said:


> This standard husbandry for all cases; but in the case of bees and VSH it is still more critical. This is because the VSH genes are recessive. What that means is that every time a non-VSH bee mates with a VSH bee, the result is _always_ a non-VSH bee. Not 50/50 - _never_. I haven't tried to do the math, but I reckon every duff hive that is maintained can, all else being equal, sabotage at least two, three, four colonies in the next generation.


Sadly, VSH trait expression is thought to be more complicated then just dominant/recessive expression. Keeping higher levels of VSH expression in one's breeding population is indeed important. We've found the best way to select for hardy surviviors is to keep what we desire, and cull *anything else* as Mike states. This works! VSH might be responsible in part, grooming behavior might also be responsible, etc. etc. The foundation is to keep what's good and throw the rest away. However, one can run into problems when one's breeding population is 10-15 colonies!

Thus, the need for cooperative breeding programs becomes more apparent once again.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## BillSF9c (May 18, 2007)

Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
"This standard husbandry for all cases; but in the case of bees and VSH it is still more critical. This is because the VSH genes are recessive. What that means is that every time a non-VSH bee mates with a VSH bee, the result is _always_ a non-VSH bee. Not 50/50 - _never_. I haven't tried to do the math, but I reckon every duff hive that is maintained can, all else being equal, sabotage at least two, three, four colonies in the next generation."

The math goes like this: you get 1/4 as VSH. 2/4 as a cross, and 1/4 as VSH.
The issue then is whether VSH is a recessive or dominant gene(/gene series.)
If recessive, then 1/4 ought to show the gene. The 2/4 comes up non-VSh, as the gene "is" (assumed for this argument,) recessive. And the last 1/4 the gene never occurs. In a successive generation recessive genes show up less.

Plot this as (Vyes & Vno)
____ Vy ____ Vn, and
Vy _ VyVy __ VyVn
Vn _ VnVy __ VnVn

VyVy is 1 in 4. (Mathematically.)
Then in a later generation:
If VyVn mates with VyVn, you get Vn traits, regardless if the gene is carried, as it is (assumed to be) recessive.

I will settle for local successes from eventual results of non-treatment
and feral influences, hopefully coupled with a more diverse gene pool,
but genes from the general "climate" of the area(s,) they being demonstrated as suitable by their success in survival with as minimal intervention as possible, which approaches 100%, if a local (endemic, native, surviving,) gene pool is to be had.

If you try to promote only VSH, it will be tough, perhaps, to remove non-VSH from feral or other influence. IF you succeed, you might diminish other aspects of the gene pool, that are suitable locally. You sorta of play with GMO and monoculture methodology. Some might consider this a questionable approach in terms of sustainability. It will be interesting to follow.

BillSF9c


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

*VSH inheritence is not determined by a simple dominant/recessive inheritence.*
There's more going on.

Adding in VSH to an exsisting population, if done with care, will enhance the economic value
of the exsisting population. Genetic load would only be realized in very tight populations with limited gene flow.

Breeding bees is quite challenging! 

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Sorry to rain on the parade here, but am I the only one who is thinking that maybe the collective bee forum has a somewhat simplistic view of genetics? Do we really think that just by not using meds or destroying weak colonies is going to improve the current world wide bee devastation issues? Think about the 10,000’s of years people have been breeding and raising livestock (bovine, porcine, poultry) and we still haven’t got it right. It seems just a little pretentious to think we can fix our bee problems (CCD, mites, hive beatles, and nosema, to name a few) in our backyard apiaries in just a couple of seasons (or years) of selective breeding. Seriously if it were that easy, it would be so obvious that we would all have superbees that don’t sting, don’t swarm, produce unlimited amounts of honey, and require no care whatsoever. 

The idea of breeding against mites is particularly foreign to me. Mites are a macro parasite, unlike viruses which an organism can develop antibodies to fight it. Allow me for being so crude, but I equate bee breeding for “mite resistance” similar to the idea that eliminating all of the people in the world with pubic lice would breed a set of people that are immune to them. Somehow I don’t think it works that way. Thoughts?


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Sorry to rain on the parade here,

I hope that you have a strong back ground in applied and experimental genetics.
As for the ecto parasites:
Trench fever was a major problem in two World Wars.
Regards,
Ernie


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Nabber86 said:


> Sorry to rain on the parade here, but am I the only one who is thinking that maybe the collective bee forum has a somewhat simplistic view of genetics? Do we really think that just by not using meds or destroying weak colonies is going to improve the current world wide bee devastation issues?


Absolutely, yes. Nature maintains resistance to predators by ruthlessly weeding out the weak at every generation, and having methods of ensuring that only the strongest genetic mixes make the next generations. Think of how many species have competitive mating behaviours. The next generation is always made from the strongest available parents.

If you _don't_ copy this system in husbandry your stock _automatically sickens_

These are established facts. Life just works that way; and stockraising works that way.

Beekeepers unfortunately have never been told this. In the past they could rely on wild bees to do their selecting for them, and keep their own strains healthy. But now that apiary bees overwhelm wild bees, and we've started using meds (which effectively means we breed from all stock irrespective of health) ... we have a very big problem.



Nabber86 said:


> Think about the 10,000’s of years people have been breeding and raising livestock (bovine, porcine, poultry) and we still haven’t got it right. [...]Thoughts?


We can get it right, most of the time. If we could remove the constant pressure for cheaper food and took better care to rely more on breeding and less on meds, we'd have much healthier animals as a result. 

But don't forget, here we can control mating. In the bee population we can't. For that reason we can't domesticate bees. 

Mike


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Good morning M. B.,

But now that apiary bees overwhelm wild bees, 
Wild bees are a great reservoire for diseases and therefore I choose to medicate.
Ernie


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

nadder writes:
Sorry to rain on the parade here, but am I the only one who is thinking that maybe the collective bee forum has a somewhat simplistic view of genetics?

tecumseh:
well no you are not the only one. I guess we will have one or two more repetition of the probabilities of recessive/dominant genetics even though this simplistic inheritance model doesn't really fit the problem.... which should confirm you hypothesis.

but do be extemely careful here... the powers that be may construct your questioning authority and 'simplitic ideas' as just another form of personal attack.

then adamf writes:
VSH inheritence is not determined by a simple dominant/recessive inheritence.
There's more going on.

tecumseh:
there it is again folks... the problem in this case is not RULED by simple recessive/dominant inheritance. the consequences of this is actually extremely profound since it would take some individual with a extremely complex mind and the calculating capacity of a main frame computer to figure the problem out. for most of us normal walkin' around kind of folks this means after a 1000 years of effort we might accidently stumble on the solution, but the reality is when we did, we wouldn't be able to recognize 'the solution' when it was staring us directly in the face.

a casual lay understanding of this problem is formulated by Jared Diamond in Germ, Guns and Steel in regards to the recognition (historically) and inheritance schemes of the most basic agricultural crops.

to nadder:
you are absolutely correct you cannot develope a breed of bees that are totally varroa resistant. you can however select for individuals that have less problem (more tolerance) from the varroa than others. in a similar vein brother adam suggested and current dna mapping confirms that some european bees were likely exposed to t-mite long ago and those with little to no tolerance were weaned from the population so what is left is capable of tolerating the t mites. I think???? this is the same basic idea as a stable vs an unstable prey/predator relationship.

but yes we could all use a refresher course in the study of inheritance.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

mike bipsham writes:
Absolutely, yes. Nature maintains resistance to predators by ruthlessly weeding out the weak at every generation, and having methods of ensuring that only the strongest genetic mixes make the next generations. Think of how many species have competitive mating behaviours. The next generation is always made from the strongest available parents.

tecumseh:
quite evident to me is you missed several classes in basic genetics/reproduction.

no nature does not automatically weed out a weakness at some convient human defined time line of 'every gneration'. the basic idea surronding this theme is called 'fitness' in the study of inheritance. that is... if the weak produce offspring that can (and do) mate then this is also passed onto the next generation. the varroa problem in honey bees should somewhat to highly illustrate this concern. since it generally requires two years for a varroa infested hive to perish, this allow a good year and a half for a hive with little or no resistance to varroa to pass on it's own genetic combination.

what bee breeding folks should be pursuing (imho) is a positive genetic drift of moving from unstable to stable prey predator relationship. I personally expect it will require several decades to begin to recognize a genetic solution to this problem. even then I suspect that honeybees will not be varroa free so much as capable of tolerating varroa. 

lastly... almost anyone who has watch or casually studied reproduction in either wild or domestic animals know that 'offspring arising from the strongest parents' may be some what to largely a gross overstatement. in most all natural breeding regiments, reproduction success just doesn't work out that way.

just my 2.5 denaro...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

tecumseh said:


> you are absolutely correct you cannot develope a breed of bees that are totally varroa resistant.


What about resistance to the viruses that are killing the bees? Haven't you seen colonies that have low mite loads but are crashing from PMS? Also colonies that have high mite loads that appear to be healthy?


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## olddrown (Oct 28, 2009)

Adam
What do you think about the Glenn VSH Queens ?


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

are you suggest michael palmer that there is some established and singular mechanism between varroa and pms (I ain't really certain right now what pms stands for??)?

I would think (no matter what pms stands for) all organisms will not show the same effect from the exact same exposure to any given (or hypothetical) pest, pathogen or virus.

as to your question(s)... when I discovered that the 'error' term involved with varroa monitoring/testing was larger than any meaningful number generated, my own approach to varroa testing became much more informal.

at this point in time (may change tomorrow) I spend more time trying to mentally and functionally deal with nosema than I do dealing with varroa.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

olddrown said:


> Adam
> What do you think about the Glenn VSH Queens ?


Hi.
Tom Glenn has a cooperative agreement with the USDA @ Baton Rouge to take their raw VSH stock and select from it to provide breeding material for others to enhance economic populations with the VSH trait. Tom has done an excellent job with this--he's a great breeder and exacting technician. We have used both VSH virgins and VSH semen from Tom over the years in our program, as well as VSH from the USDA directly. 

I would recomend Glenn VSH Queens if one is able to intoduce an II queen (this requires some beekeeping skill) and one is able to produce daughters from the introduced II queen, quickly. II queens will often (not always) last only one season, thus to get one's value from the purchase they need to be a handy queen rearer.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Another analogy. If I kill all the kittens in my neighborhood that are infested with fleas, will I end up with a super flea resistant strain of cat? How many generations would that take? 100's, 1000's, perhaps millions? How exactly would flea resistance in a cat manifest itself (does the super cat not "taste" good to a flea?). Does anyone seriously think that cats can develop "flea antibodies"? 

Anyway, I am not some anti genetic ludite. I fully understand evolution, Darwin, ect. All I am saying is that in practice, it aint as easy as some people seem to be promoting here and it it _where_ that easy, all of the bee problems would have been solved by now.


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> What about resistance to the viruses that are killing the bees? Haven't you seen colonies that have low mite loads but are crashing from PMS? Also colonies that have high mite loads that appear to be healthy?


Mike's point is right on: varroa, virus, poor forage, stress, etc. etc. are all factors that *SELECT* queens performance. If one has several excellent queens showing desirable qualties that have performed well despite great selection pressure, and they test out with high mite loads, does one cull them from the breeding program? 

You know the answer. Or you should. 

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Here's a good resource for you beginers in Genetics

THE APPLIED GENETICS OF HUMANS, ANIMALS, PLANTS AND FUNGI
(Second Edition)
opcorn:by Bernard C Lamb (Imperial College London, London) 

Table of Contents (344k)
Preface (56k)
Chapter 1: Introduction; Aims of Applied genetics; Revision of Basic Genetic Concepts and Terminology (2,983k)




http://www.worldscibooks.com/lifesci/p414.html

*Dr Bernard C Lamb has taught genetics, applied genetics and related molecular biology at Imperial College London, London University, since 1968. Dr Lamb is a Reader in Genetics, and is currently Chairman of the University of London Specialist Group in Genetics. *He has given numerous talks, has published more than 100 research papers and has authored or co-authored nine books. For his outstanding contributions, he was awarded the higher doctorate of DSc by Bristol University in 2000. Dr Lamb was also recently described as “a genius of distinction” and “a great mind of the 21st century” by American reference books. In addition, Dr Lamb contributes to the creative writing of short stories and light verse. He is a judge of two literary competitions and is the Chairman of the London branch of the Queen's English Society. He is also a trustee of the Vitiligo Society and in 2005 was elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of Medicine.

Regards,
Ernie


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

BEES4U said:


> *Dr Bernard C Lamb has taught genetics, applied genetics and related molecular biology at Imperial College London, London University, since 1968. Dr Lamb is a Reader in Genetics, and is currently Chairman of the University of London Specialist Group in Genetics. *He has given numerous talks, has published more than 100 research papers and has authored or co-authored nine books. For his outstanding contributions, he was awarded the higher doctorate of DSc by Bristol University in 2000. Dr Lamb was also recently described as “a genius of distinction” and “a great mind of the 21st century” by American reference books. In addition, Dr Lamb contributes to the creative writing of short stories and light verse. He is a judge of two literary competitions and is the Chairman of the London branch of the Queen's English Society. He is also a trustee of the Vitiligo Society and in 2005 was elected a Fellow of the Royal Society of Medicine.
> 
> Regards,
> Ernie



AWESOME Credentials! A truly learned specialist. (And I do sincerely mean that). 

I am sure that Dr. Lamb has made tremendous advances in applied genetics and should be praised for his lifetime of achievements in the field. However, why hasn’t Dr. Lamb developed a strain of completely disease and parasite-free super bees? Or figured out a cure for AIDS or male pattern baldness? Could it be that it is a little more complicated than simply culling the weak (and the bald)? 

This guy is a genius and yet he cant even solve many of the world's basic genetic problems. If he cant do it, what chance does a backyard beekeeper have??

Not saying that we shouldn’t try our best and keep working at it; but again, if it were only that easy.........


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Nabber86 said:


> Another analogy. If I kill all the kittens in my neighborhood that are infested with fleas, will I end up with a super flea resistant strain of cat? How many generations would that take? 100's, 1000's, perhaps millions? How exactly would flea resistance in a cat manifest itself (does the super cat not "taste" good to a flea?). Does anyone seriously think that cats can develop "flea antibodies"?


Hi,
Your example, besides making me itchy  got me thinking...
Since the fleas are not killing the cats, by you killing off all the flea infested kitttens, you'd more than likely have no more breeding population. We know that fleas and their hosts survive without too much ill effect. Fleas are not lethal parasites.

There's no *selection* going on in the cat population other then maybe for cats with thicker hair, more oily skin and maybe smellier odor--these would be possible cats that would be more flea tolerant, that could do well, and influence further generations. Imagine that a happy cat will reproduce more than an itchy cat!

With honey bees, we have an introduced species, being parasitized by another introduced species, and then being selected by man. Pretty complicated? Not really. Manage the bees as you will, and try to select from what survives. Repeat. Repeat. Keep a handle on genetic load (brood pattern for example).This requires a great deal of time and attention to detail. By no means rocket science, however.
Or voodoo.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

adamf said:


> Hi,
> Your example, besides making me itchy  got me thinking...
> Since the fleas are not killing the cats, by you killing off all the flea infested kitttens, you'd more than likely have no more breeding population. We know that fleas and their hosts survive without too much ill effect. Fleas are not lethal parasites.
> 
> ...



Excellent point, but: 

Fleas are definately parasites, and

Why do cats still have fleas after thousand of years of domestication and selective breeding? Shouldnt his trait have been bred out of them by now? Why is the sale of S-methoprene a billion dollar industry?


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## rkr (Oct 30, 2008)

Nabber86 said:


> Why do cats still have fleas after thousand of years of domestication and selective breeding?


Nab,
I think the answer is in the question. Is the goal not to breed bees that can survive thousands of years unharmed by the mite that infest them? I would say that in this example, long ago, cats succeeded in yielding to the pressure and adapted so that most any population can survive with fleas.
It might be a bit more complex than that but then again maybe not.

At this point medicating/treating your cat to kill fleas is more for the comfort of the cat, and the convenience of not having fleas in and around the house. 

If only we could get to that point with *all* bees in our lifetime, which of course is the goal.

RKR


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Nabber86 said:


> Excellent point, but: Fleas are definately parasites, and Why do cats still have fleas after thousand of years of domestication and selective breeding? Shouldnt his trait have been bred out of them by now? Why is the sale of S-methoprene a billion dollar industry?



Hi,
Fleas do not kill their hosts. Varroa mites do. I wrote that fleas were not _lethal _parasites.

Cat's have fleas becasue we've not selected for flea-tolerant cats. You answered your own question:


Nabber86 said:


> Why is the sale of S-methoprene a billion dollar industry?


 Because we've not selected for flea tolerant Mammalian pets.

We humans usually don't go around with fleas and we're similar to cats and dogs (insert Mammal here). We wash and groom. Once we didn't. Then we had more fleas.

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

With all of the cat lovers in the world one would think that at sometime in the last 3000 years somebody would have thought that it would be desirable to breed cats that are flea resistant. Especially now since flea medications are generally perceived as evil chemicals (much like Apistan?). Also consider that the pet product market in the US probably exceeds the honey and pollination market by several billion dollars. Just ask the 76,000,000 cat owners in the US if they would like to have flea-proof cats. *Since this would be so easy to do, according to some of the backyard geneticists on this forum (simply cull the cats with fleas), it’s a no-brainer. * Unless of course the likes of Bayer Animal Science, Hertz, and Monsanto are secretly conspiring to keep our cats addicted to artificial medications (that’s an argument for another day). 

Anyway sorry for the hijack. I have made my point and hope that at least a few people given it some thought, despite my obvious sarcasm and lame attempts at humor. 

Lastly, I certainly hope that the myriad of beekeeping problems are soon solved, or at least mitigated to reasonable level. And if a backyarder does solve the problem, more power to you!


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Nabber86 said:


> With all of the cat lovers in the world one would think that at sometime in the last 3000 years somebody would have thought that it would be desirable to breed cats that are flea resistant. Especially now since flea medications are generally perceived as evil chemicals (much like Apistan?).


Your argument really doesn't pertain to mite tolerance. Maybe some folks are breeding for cats that tolerate fleas. There are certainly dog breeds that tolerate fleas and thrive--look at some of the working dog phenotypes.



Nabber86 said:


> *Since this would be so easy to do, according to some of the backyard geneticists on this forum (simply cull the cats with fleas), it’s a no-brainer. *


Huh? Your metaphor fails here.



Nabber86 said:


> Unless of course the likes of Bayer Animal Science, Hertz, and Monsanto are secretly conspiring to keep our cats addicted to artificial medications (that’s an argument for another day).


If they could make money in a breeding program, they would have. It's more profitable to make pesticide, and easier. We've actually *selected them* to succeed.


Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## JohnBeeMan (Feb 24, 2004)

Speaking of cats and flees - lap dogs were bred so that fleas would jump off the people and get on the dog. Maybe we should work on getting varroa mites to jump off EHBs and onto AHBs.

But back to thread topic, I find the discussion of queen breeding with as few as 15 hives as useless as somewhat discouraging. I am in that very category. I do get Glenn breeders and hope to make some small contribution to the local breeding stock. I do not expect to develop the next super bee however. We hobbist like to experiment and 'waste' our money even when there are very small returns.


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## rkr (Oct 30, 2008)

Nabber86 said:


> With all of the cat lovers in the world one would think that at sometime in the last 3000 years somebody would have thought that it would be desirable to breed cats that are flea resistant.


Some one did!! Yuck!! 









Sorry tension breaker, had to be done.
RKR


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

tecumseh said:


> no nature does not automatically weed out a weakness at some convient human defined time line of 'every gneration'. the basic idea surronding this theme is called 'fitness' in the study of inheritance. that is... if the weak produce offspring that can (and do) mate then this is also passed onto the next generation. the varroa problem in honey bees should somewhat to highly illustrate this concern. since it generally requires two years for a varroa infested hive to perish, this allow a good year and a half for a hive with little or no resistance to varroa to pass on it's own genetic combination.


On average those bees that do better in any given situation will raise the proportion of their genes in future generations. Over time that plays out to ... widespread resistance.

Those that are most resistant do better... and the magic goes on.




tecumseh said:


> what bee breeding folks should be pursuing (imho) is a positive genetic drift of moving from unstable to stable prey predator relationship.


The relationship between prey and predator is characterised as 'unstable equilibrium'. there is never any such stability. Life just isn't like that. It is an everlasting dance, each side 'struggling' to thrive against the other. When conditions are good, most of the time most species are largly healthy - that is, they manage their predators well. Under stress (i.e. famine, epidemic) the pressure tends to pick off the weaker. This of course strengthens the population as a whole, which usually recovers fully. Bees have been doing this for millions of years. 



tecumseh said:


> I personally expect it will require several decades to begin to recognize a genetic solution to this problem.


Its well under way. The solution is to stop poisoning the population with weak genes that have been kept alive artificially with meds. This is basic husbandry, scientifically understood and empirically demonstrated - more so every day.



tecumseh said:


> even then I suspect that honeybees will not be varroa free so much as capable of tolerating varroa.


Yes.



tecumseh said:


> lastly... almost anyone who has watch or casually studied reproduction in either wild or domestic animals know that 'offspring arising from the strongest parents' may be some what to largely a gross overstatement. in most all natural breeding regiments, reproduction success just doesn't work out that way.


That is the whole point of sexual reproduction. It mixes up genes, and what results is a range of offspring with differing abilities. Some are just great for the current environment, some ok, some useless. Runts. Then natural selection dumps the worst and brings the best to the next generations through natural selection. Over and over and over, every generation. 

Bred back in the runts and... well I'm sure you're getting the picture.

Best,

Mike


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Nabber86 said:


> Another analogy. If I kill all the kittens in my neighborhood that are infested with fleas, will I end up with a super flea resistant strain of cat? How many generations would that take? 100's, 1000's, perhaps millions? How exactly would flea resistance in a cat manifest itself (does the super cat not "taste" good to a flea?). Does anyone seriously think that cats can develop "flea antibodies"?


Elephants are slow breeders. In the 20th C. most of the large-tusked African elephants were hunted out. There were only short tusked elephants to father the next generation. Now, there are only short-tusked elephants.

That's how fast it works.



Nabber86 said:


> Anyway, I am not some anti genetic ludite. I fully understand evolution, Darwin, ect. All I am saying is that in practice, it aint as easy as some people seem to be promoting here and it it _where_ that easy, all of the bee problems would have been solved by now.


The world doesn't work like that. Too many powerful people make lots of money from meds. They get to make the most noise: 'we don't know what is wrong (lie) meds is the answer...'

To many keepers want an instant solution, to keep them going now, and don't take into account the long-term solution. 

But mostly beekeepers don't have a strong tradition of selecting. They plain went wrong by not knowing what to do, and not understanding that it was what they were doing that was largely causing the problem. It has to be said, in large part the scientists let us down badly. It wasn't that hard a problem, and too often they are focussed on funding, not fixing.

Mike


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

Nabber86 said:


> Excellent point, but:
> 
> Fleas are definately parasites, and
> 
> Why do cats still have fleas after thousand of years of domestication and selective breeding? Shouldnt his trait have been bred out of them by now? Why is the sale of S-methoprene a billion dollar industry?


A good question. Its quite likely however cat breeders have never selected on the basis of vulnerability to fleas. 

In nature/on the streets the most vulnerable will be prey to secondary infections, and tend to die off and/or lose fights with healthier toms. 

But remember; most species have parasites most of the time. It isn't unnatural. 

Mike


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

rkr said:


> Is the goal not to breed bees that can survive thousands of years unharmed by the mite that infest them?


Hi Rod,

There is no such beastie, nor will there ever be. Health is maintained in the process of selection. Stop that process and the strongest strain will always progressively sicken as its predators find new ways in.

Mike


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

structureNow, there are only short-tusked elephants.
And now we have them without tusks because of poaching!
Now this is enteresting, the Afican country that manages their herds *export ivory*.
Ernie


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_what bee breeding folks should be pursuing (imho) is a positive genetic drift of moving from unstable to stable prey predator relationship. I personally expect it will require several decades to begin to recognize a genetic solution to this problem. even then I suspect that honeybees will not be varroa free so much as capable of tolerating varroa. _

tecumseh,
I recall hearing about an individual's experiment doing exactly this. He worked on developing a weaker mite, rather than trying to get a stronger bee.
He would study mite drops on his colonies. The colonies with the lowest mite drop would not get treated or split. The colonies with high mite populations got treated or split to control mites. This allowed the slowest reproducing mites to breed successfully.
Over the course of a few years in his bee yards, he was able to slow the doubling of mite population by close to two weeks, if I remember right. He had big gains the first few years, but was down to extending the time required for mite population to double by a day or two each year now.
Using this method, he was able to get a stable parasite/host relationship. he still had mites, but they reproduced too slow to have the explosive mite populations that crash hives.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Theory and practice often diverge. In theory it would be great to not treat our hives, and breed from the survivors. In practice, after 2 years, of 623 hives, none survived CCD. After personal intervention, I again have surviving hives. The point is, if none survive, who do you breed from? I explained this in a PM to an ardent "live or die" fan, but the point was lost. So go ahead and don't treat for anything. I wish the best of luck, but with the total loss of your bees(sooner or later), there will be less honey, and the price will go up. Free money for me. 

Roland 
Linden Apiary, Est. 1852

Will you still have bees in 157 years?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Countryboy said:


> I recall hearing about an individual's experiment doing exactly this. He worked on developing a weaker mite, rather than trying to get a stronger bee.


Tom Seeley writes about this. Tom located all the bee trees in Cornell's Arnot forest....in the 70s I believe. A few years ago, he again located them...all in the same trees as before. All alive and seemingly healthy. Why?

Could be cavities that were repopulated by swarms from managed colonies. Could be "survivor" bees that have developed resistance to varroa mites...or their viruses.

Or, the mites developed to become less virulent...his theory...

Mites transfer to new bees in two ways...horizontally and vertically. 

In horizontal transmission, bees travel from one colony to another. They take advantage of the way we keep our bees...in apiaries with a number of colonies. This is an unnatural way. Bees don't maintain their colonies on each others doorsteps. So, if the mites kill one colony, they can transfer to another. No big deal if they kill their host.

In vertical transmission, they are transferred from mother's bees to daughter's bees. There aren't a large number of colonies next door. The beekeeper isn't always replacing the dead and dying colonies with fresh meat. So, in this case, it is to the mite's advantage to become less virulent, and not kill their hosts.

What's happening in the Arnot forest? Tom is still working on that.


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

rkr

Back to your question, and out of the forrest.
I have used Glenn for breeders since 2000. Typically, I have been able to overwinter some breeders and use them the next year as drone mothers.
The insemination process for queens has improved so much in the last years that inseminated queens last almost as long as "regular" queens. (barring damage or supersedure). 
Tom will tell you that a pure VSH x VSH is different than a regular queen. In setting pure VSH with pure VSH there is an small amount of in-breeding done. It is best to use these queens quickly because of this. (grafting, etc.) They are more susceptible to supercedure than open mated queens. The bees tend to pick up that there is "something wrong" and replace these queens after a couple of months. Breeder queens should be used for their purpose of rearing queens.
I would start with a cross of VSH and Minn. Hy. or a combination of; instead of a pure VSH.
I think you would be more satisfied in the long run. (Minn Hyg x VSH is a good combination)
Sincerely,
Frank Wyatt


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> In vertical transmission, they are transferred from mother's bees to daughter's bees. There aren't a large number of colonies next door. The beekeeper isn't always replacing the dead and dying colonies with fresh meat. So, in this case, it is to the mite's advantage to become less virulent, and not kill their hosts.


Great points! That Vermont cold most keep your brain sharp!

We're seeing colonies in our breeding population with more mites this year than the past several. If the high mite-loaded colonies survive through the Winter and build up well this Spring, perhaps we're selecting tolerant bees AND tolerant mites. Our population certainly has a vertically transmitted mite phenotypes--the selection pressure on their population might have moved them to being less antagonistc toward the bees. But maybe, we're selecting mites that carry less virus? Maybe we're selecting a milder strain of virus (new research just out that shows Deformed Wing Virus is transmitted through Varroa)? Or perhaps the mites are just really heavy this year. Who knows?

Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

adamf said:


> But maybe, we're selecting mites that carry less virus? Maybe we're selecting a milder strain of virus (new research just out that shows Deformed Wing Virus is transmitted through Varroa)?


I think we'll find that resistance to the viruses will play a large part in Varroa tolerance. I bet you've seen cloonies that had low mite loads and high DWV levels. Also the other way around.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

*Being Part of The Forest*



Michael Palmer said:


> I think we'll find that resistance to the viruses will play a large part in Varroa tolerance. I bet you've seen cloonies that had low mite loads and high DWV levels. Also the other way around.


Hi Michael,

Would you agree that the mite is here to stay, and its characteristics will shift around all the time? In the dance of life some bee strains will find ways of seeing off some mite strains, then other mite strains will make inroads, and other bee strains will do better.. and so on. The same is true of all the other pathogens, and of all the zillions of combinations of them. 

All we can do - and all we should have to do - is mimic natural selection by not supporting the weak in any way. After that, since we know so little, and what we need to know will always change ahead of our knowing about it, 'hands off' selection might be the best way to go? Rather than sourcing our genetics from the forest and then messing with them, we should simply return to being part of the forest?

Does that make sense?

Mike


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

*Re: Being Part of The Forest*



mike bispham said:


> Hi Michael,
> 
> Would you agree that the mite is here to stay, and its characteristics will shift around all the time?
> 
> ...


Of course the mites are here to stay. Why would you think any differently? I also agree that we need to select from the strongest and most productive bees. Over time, selecting by performance will give us bees that perform. And since we "know so little," how else are we to procede? 

Battling Tracheal mites is a good starting point. You can develope TM resistand bees solely by selecting for performance. No cutting bees, no infestation rates, etc, Good strong colonies in the spring that go on to be healthy productive colonies in the summer is the way. Takes only a very few years. Varroa is a tougher nut to crack, but I believe the process is the same. I also believe that there are strains of bees that already show promise. You can add these to your mix and decrease the time line significantly. 

I can't, though, agree to hands off beekeeping. Hands off beekeeping is Ostrich beekeeping. Putting your head in the sand and keeping your fingers and toes crossed and hoping the bees do it by themselves. Of course, they will...over time. But with a large apiary, a family to support, employees to pay, and of course...The Bank.

I learned too much battling TM and Chalk to just let it happen. There are more criteria in the selection process than just survivability. As I've said before...non productive survivors should just as well be dead.


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

mike p writes:
The relationship between prey and predator is characterised as 'unstable equilibrium'. there is never any such stability. Life just isn't like that. It is an everlasting dance, each side 'struggling' to thrive against the other. When conditions are good, most of the time most species are largly healthy - that is, they manage their predators well. Under stress (i.e. famine, epidemic) the pressure tends to pick off the weaker. This of course strengthens the population as a whole, which usually recovers fully. Bees have been doing this for millions of years.

tecumseh:
you are of course correct and no matter if you are talking about genetic or economic stability this term is largely rhetorical in nature. at best 'stability' in both cases means there is not extreme fluction in either population (in regards to genetics) or $ value or quantities (in economics).

a coutryboy snip..
I recall hearing about an individual's experiment doing exactly this. He worked on developing a weaker mite, rather than trying to get a stronger bee.
He would study mite drops on his colonies. The colonies with the lowest mite drop would not get treated or split. The colonies with high mite populations got treated or split to control mites.

tecumseh:
I do just the opposite which is, I determine the weakest hives (highest mite load and non thriving hives) and use these for the raw input for splits. This strategy aligns more with a CULLING strategy than a breeding program. The hope being that the next generation of queens you get into those little boxes may have more resistance and tolerance of the pest. Culling as a strategy (to confront a long list of historical problems in beekeeping) is mentioned again and again and again in the literature (by a long list of notable beekeepers) but this 'strategy' doesn't have enough zing to it to get most folks attention. I think??? perhaps a lot of folks miss the fact that I have 100% control over the CULLING choice but much less control over how breeding is accomplished. 

my objection to most 'industrial treatments' of varroa (vs almost all home remedies) is the unaviodable consequence that you ARE breeding a more robust mite. the more effective a POISON is at initially killing varroa the shorter the time period before varroa becomes more robust. if the poison is abosultely efffective (100%) then the pest is erradicated and the business of killling varroa is finished (at least as far as some industrial manufacture making a buck on producing the poison is concerned).

I am quite enjoying nadder additons to this thread....


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## adamf (Jan 28, 2006)

Michael Palmer said:


> I think we'll find that resistance to the viruses will play a large part in Varroa tolerance. I bet you've seen cloonies that had low mite loads and high DWV levels. Also the other way around.


Yes--and combinations in between!

Once the data from the alcohol wash test we're looking into as a selection tool is in, I'll summarize the results and make recommendations. Right now, if we were to use # of mites/100 bees as a selection criteria solely, we'd not have very many to select from next year! Come Spring build-up, we'll use the colonies that fit into our "ideal" the most closely. If they have low mite counts then, fantastic! If they don't but they are chugging along, that's how it will be.

Relying on a single test or single methododolgy fails in a bee breeding context.
Quantitative informtion on breeding candidates has to be utilized with a qualitative mind--breeding takes both quantitative and qualitative input. 
A breeder is an artifical selector. Much of his/her results come from his/her perception of what is ideal, or from what the market demands. 


Adam Finkelstein
www.vpqueenbees.com


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

And, big bonus, you can learn how to keep animals health _properly_. permanantly, and without having to buy drugs or mess about with tricks and manipulations. You have The Art.

animals health _properly_. permanantly
How is the mad Cow virus doing in your part of the world?

So far, all of my VSH hives are thriving and they have *BIG* wintering clusters because I am using the IPM approach and their 1st line of defence are the VSH genetics.

*and without having to buy drugs or mess about with tricks and manipulations. *
Can you explain your term mess about/around in further detail?

*permanantly,*

A little spontaneous gentec mutation will not allow something to be permanent

Regards,
Ernie


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

BEES4U said:


> "And, big bonus, you can learn how to keep animals health _properly_. permanantly, and without having to buy drugs or mess about with tricks and manipulations. You have The Art."
> 
> animals health _properly_. permanantly
> How is the mad Cow virus doing in your part of the world?


Like foot and mouth disease, we have no resistance to it as previous destruction policies have ensured there is no immunity in the population. Some farmers argue that was a mistake. I wouldn't wish to take a stand.



BEES4U said:


> So far, all of my VSH hives are thriving and they have *BIG* wintering clusters because I am using the IPM approach and their 1st line of defence are the VSH genetics.


If you keep your weaker individuals alive by treating, you must expect future generations to be weaker. 



BEES4U said:


> *and without having to buy drugs or mess about with tricks and manipulations. *
> Can you explain your term mess about/around in further detail?


Whatever you do to treat. Put stuff in, take it out again, do shook swarm procedures... 



BEES4U said:


> *permanantly,*
> 
> A little spontaneous gentec mutation will not allow something to be permanent


Adopting a self-repair system permanantly should fix the problems caused by not having a self-repair system - permanantly. 

What I mean is; if enough people do this, then the huge losses experienced in recent years should become a thing of the past, and we can look forward to a situation fairly similar to that before the arrival of varroa. Since we've learned a bit more, perhaps even better. 

Mike


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

To the gentelman across the pond.
You do not understand!
Time for a refreashing nap,
Ernie


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

*Re: Being Part of The Forest*



Michael Palmer said:


> Of course the mites are here to stay. Why would you think any differently?


Sorry Michael, it was a bit of a rhetorical question.



Michael Palmer said:


> I can't, though, agree to hands off beekeeping. Hands off beekeeping is Ostrich beekeeping. Putting your head in the sand and keeping your fingers and toes crossed and hoping the bees do it by themselves. Of course, they will...over time. But with a large apiary, a family to support, employees to pay, and of course...The Bank.
> 
> I learned too much battling TM and Chalk to just let it happen. There are more criteria in the selection process than just survivability. As I've said before...non productive survivors should just as well be dead.


I take your points, and wouldn't wish to argue against them. I'm all for positive selection. 

Perhaps a better way to put it might that those beekeepers who can afford to might wish align their bees' genetics with those required to survive in the wild. 

What I'm thinking of here is that for several reasons it is desirable to have wild bees around, and so we should take care not to create and distribute bees whose genetics will undermine wild bees. For me raw self-sufficiency in health terms is the first criteria. So when pursuing desirable characteristics, we should take care not to remove traits necessary to survival. A hypothetical bee that doubles productivity yet has a fatal weakness that requires beekeepers actions, would, to me, be a terrible step. That, I guess is the conservationist in me. A businessman would take a different view, and we'd have to agree to disagree, and fight our corners.

Mike


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

adamf said:


> Quantitative informtion on breeding candidates has to be utilized with a qualitative mind--breeding takes both quantitative and qualitative input.


I love the way you put this (qualitative researcher that I am)


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: Being Part of The Forest*

i haven't caught up on all of this, but this in particular is of interest to me.



Michael Palmer said:


> Battling Tracheal mites is a good starting point. You can develope TM resistand bees solely by selecting for performance. No cutting bees, no infestation rates, etc, Good strong colonies in the spring that go on to be healthy productive colonies in the summer is the way. Takes only a very few years.


this seems to be the consensus, and i have no reason to doubt any detail...it makes sense.

but.....

it really depends on a number of factors...mostly, what is the nature of the parasite in question.

in the case of TM you posit above, either you aren't treating for TM (making the "thriving" colonies also "survivor colonies", or if you are treating for TM, the length of time it takes to build resistance is roughly inverse of the effectiveness of the treatment (ie, the more effective the treatment, the longer it will take do breed a resistant bee....a contiuum with 0% TM kill on one end (equal to "no treatment"), and 100% TM kill on the other (which would never help select for a resistant bee).

whether or not you treat and how effective a treatment you use also depends on the nature of the parasite. in the case of TM, you found the bees sufficiently tolerant that you were willing to breed through it (ie, it wasn't killing off all of your bees with whatever management practices you were using). beekeepers in general have been willing to breed for TM resistance and not for varroa resistance...probably because they see much bigger short term losses by not treating for varroa.

one thing that i've come to recognize is the concept of a genetic bottleneck. in a relatively stable population, genes are slow to disapear from the gene pool...sexual reproduction ensures that. a trait that is only useful once every several generations isn't lost in a few generations...under most circumstances. 

when conditions change however (in this case, the presence of varroa in north america) , a large culling takes place. i was surprised to learn that all domestic cats (along with some species of wild cats) can all be traced back to one female ancestor. can you imagine what the "green press" would report if they were covering such a situation? it would be a biological disaster...by some mechanism, all female cats on the planet and their offspring (save one and her offspring) failed to pass their genes along to the next generation (yes, that's an oversimplification).

in any case, my point is that the system of sexual reproduction both preserves genes in a stable environment, and culls them in a changing one. i believe that we have been paying too much attention to "genetic diversity", and not enough culling (and not enough bees exposed to the appropriate circumstances to select from). the genepool that we select from is playing "new games" rather than being competitive.

In your TM example, you did in fact practice a live and let die approach wrt TM...it's just that the dying part didn't scare you enough to intervene (whereas varroa does). 

of course i understand the economics of running a business, keeping help (and colleges) paid and the doors open. it may be that someone in such circumstance can't afford to do what we are doing...as you know, we've been working hard to develop a business model that does allow us to do this work...and part of that is owning a multifamily house (tenants basically pay our rent), not having kids (dachshunds are cheaper), being lucky, and help and advice from many fine beekepeers (including you, michael).



> I can't, though, agree to hands off beekeeping. Hands off beekeeping is Ostrich beekeeping. Putting your head in the sand and keeping your fingers and toes crossed and hoping the bees do it by themselves. Of course, they will...over time. But with a large apiary, a family to support, employees to pay, and of course...The Bank.


again, hands off worked for TM, and as you say, varroa is essentially the same process. it seems to have worked in south africa (with a tough bunch of years no doubt), but virtually everything being done in this country works against this process.

a vedanta swami that i know often speaks of ideals and justifications. if your ideal is that you don't eat cookies, then that should be the end of it. you can't really adjust the ideal because you want the cookie (well, you can, but then what do you have?). if we know a process works (ie, live and let die), it doesn't really work to ignore the process because we don't want to pay the short term costs.

yes, i agree that non-productive survivors remain unproductive....but they are not useless. it seems to me to be a lot easier to select productivity from survivors than it is to select survivors from productive stock.

deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

sorry, that was perhaps a bit long winded....let me try and summarize:

the principle that we know works is that bees exposed to a pathogen or parasite can, if left untreated, develop resistance. in addition, if the bees are not "treated" for the parasite/pathogen in question, the beekeeper can select the strongest, most productive hives despite exposure and/or infection.

this works for TM, and presumably for chalkbrood (i assume you selected for chalkbrood resistant stock)...it's been demonstrated over and over again. in the case of TM, there is enough resistance in the gene pool that beekeepers saw enough short term success that they were willing to suffer some losses. in the case of chalkbrood, there is no treatment...i expect that michael palmer's approach to chalkbrood was similar to his TM approach, select from the strongest, most productive colonies.

if we know this approach works, why not apply it to varroa? they did it in south africa and it worked. the reason is the short term costs are too high for most to bear. imho, in this kind of situation, short term losses can pay off big.

deknow


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## cdowdy (Mar 12, 2008)

adamf said:


> Yes--and combinations in between!
> 
> Once the data from the alcohol wash test we're looking into as a selection tool is in, I'll summarize the results and make recommendations. Right now, if we were to use # of mites/100 bees as a selection criteria solely, we'd not have very many to select from next year! Come Spring build-up, we'll use the colonies that fit into our "ideal" the most closely. If they have low mite counts then, fantastic! If they don't but they are chugging along, that's how it will be.
> 
> ...


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## cdowdy (Mar 12, 2008)

rkr said:


> Originally I sent this pm to Bud D but I am also interested in the answer from those who have _actually_ raise VSH bees and more specifically Glenn Apiary breeder queens. No hearsay please
> 
> How many years can I expect a Glenn Apiary breeder queens to last? One yr.? two? I have heard from one mentor that the queens from Glenn are not full of semen like a production queen and "poop-out" more quickly. I have no problem with this as they are selling "breeder" queens and at a low price compared to others. So please don't think am putting down their product!! I have only one source of info on this and He bought one bunch of queens 6-7 yrs ago, so it's not fare to judge on one experience.
> 
> ...


I got a cordoven vsh queen from Glenns this is my 3rd year with her, I have gotten a few queens from her but what has helped me most is about 6 full frams of drowns , full size deeps , that I have gotten over the past 2 years from her that has breed into the 12 hives of bees that I had, I can tell the difference in their ability to keep ahead of the mites. I now have queens from her for the 12 hives that I have. Out of the last 2 years I have lost 4 hives from mites.
but I replaced with queens from my vsh queen. She has never been out of a 5 full nec and went into winter with a hive full of bees. I will get another one this spring to cut down on inbreeding , and will use her mostly for the drones from her. and replacements queens from the one that I have. Even tho the nuc has been overflowing with bees most of the time, I have never seen a queen cell inside the nuc. Hope this will help answer your queston.


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## rkr (Oct 30, 2008)

cdowdy said:


> Hope this will help answer your queston.


It does!
I have learned a lot following this post, thanks for your input as well as all the others. It is helpful to have so many points of view. I have a plan for next spring that I believe will help me make the next step to where I want to be in 5 yrs as a beekeeper.

RKR


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

rkr said:


> It does!
> I have learned a lot following this post, thanks for your input as well as all the others. It is helpful to have so many points of view. I have a plan for next spring that I believe will help me make the next step to where I want to be in 5 yrs as a beekeeper.
> 
> RKR


I'd like to echo this. Its just great to see this conversation taking place, and I hope it will come to be felt right across the board. It is the science, art, and common sense that has been needed to replace what will come to be seen as a great madness. Truly working with Nature. You guys are years ahead of us in the UK - where it seems we cannot have conversations of this kind at all.

Mike


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

It is the science, art, and common sense that has been needed to replace what will come to be seen as a great madness.

Can you explain the great madness?

Ernie


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Perhaps a better way to put it might that *those beekeepers who can afford to *might wish align their bees' genetics with those required to survive in the wild. 
Hey,
how about you sporting me something like $250,000 dollars to test your expounded thoughts and philosophical idealogy.
It's nice to discuss things on paper. But. lets have you cough up the time, effort, research and cash to back up your philosophical ideals.
Thanks for the short term no interest loan.
In America we have a term , it's called "tree huggers".
Ernie


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

BEES4U said:


> ....how about you sporting me something like $250,000 dollars to test.....


Not nearly enough I figure. But, if you had unlimited funds to run a breeding program...

Who would you have to run the program?


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

The breeding programs are already being done. VSH, MH, the Russians. And it is NOT "Tree Hugging!" It is understanding that chemicals don't work over the long haul, and we simply must use genetics. 

The commercial beeks don't need to go bankrupt experimenting....all they have to do is buy the breeder stock from available sources. For the life of me i do not understand why beeks requeen year after year with the basic Italian or (insert bee of your choice) that has not been bred to be a survivor. You are simply perpetuating the problem. I did this (bought plain jane Italians) a few years ago. The hive lasted two seasons, and crashed. The "survivors" I bought at the same time are still going strong. I REFUSE to buy non-suvivor type bees! Simple as that. 

I do not need a $250,000 grant to do this... I simpy have to buy the right queens, packages, nucs, and go from there. You pay your money, you take your chances. More and more sideliners, back yarders, and commercial beeks are realizing the truth of what is being discussed here. And they are not tree huggers. Though Tree Huggers do exist...and maybe some on this forum, but that's another discussion! :lookout:
Regards,
Steven


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

opcorn:The breeding programs are already being done. (Past tense. They are done and the work continues.)
http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/

http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/glenn_apiaries.html



It sure is and that's why I have every breeder queen type *sold by Glenn Apiaries!* and they are used extensively in the mating yards.

You will find out with experience that there isn't a silver bullet approach.

The best approach to modern bee keeping is genetics, I.P.M, and nutrition.

*Nutrition includes feeding high quality pollen substitute or Pollen supplements at the right time and in large quantities.* 

When I say high quality supplements I am talking about nothing less than 17.0% crude protein and 22.0 - 24.0 would be superior.

Now, I gotta go hug my redwood trees and unplug their X-Mass lights
Regards,
Ernie


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Ernie, 

I think you've nailed it, with genetics, IPM, and nutrition! :applause:
One without the other is a partial solution, IMO. It amazes me the number of beeks who ignore the genetics, though, and keep buying bees that will crash in a season or two. 

Now, about those redwoods... You've already got the lights strung? Good for you! I gotta get going, you've put me to shame! :lpf:
Regards,
Steven


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

This is obvious lack of nutrition and husbandry:

The animals genetic pool can not be expressed!
1.0 http://lionguardians.wildlifedirect.org/files/2009/07/skinny-calf.jpg

1.20 http://vbs.psu.edu/ext/images/SkinnyBlackWhitecowanteriorview.jpg/image_preview

1.3 http://www.beebeesee.tv/images/SkinnyCow.jpg

Please read Fat bees Skinny bees.

Regards,
Ernie


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_The commercial beeks don't need to go bankrupt experimenting....all they have to do is buy the breeder stock from available sources. For the life of me i do not understand why beeks requeen year after year with the basic Italian or (insert bee of your choice) that has not been bred to be a survivor. _

Ask Mike Palmer. He recently has a post about this. I think he had bought VSH queens for several years, and after 6 or 7 years of this, he finally began seeing improvements. This also entailed a high quantity of VSH queens to flood the area with VSH drones too.

It's not a one shot and done deal - buying one good batch of queens won't solve all your problems. I don't care who you buy your queens from - they won't give you overnight success.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

That is so true! But as I understand it, commercial beeks have a program of regular requeening, which over the time you mentioned, improves their stock considerably.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

_But as I understand it, commercial beeks have a program of regular requeening,_

Some do, and some don't. Often, the biggest use of queens is putting them in splits.

_ which over the time you mentioned, improves their stock considerably. _

Define considerably. I'm hearing people talk about subtle improvements over time - not the night and day changes I would to be considerably improved. Their good stock got a little better - it's not like they went from poor stock to super great.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

StevenG said:


> commercial beeks have a program of regular requeening, which over the time you mentioned, improves their stock considerably.


Well, I guess it depends on where they get the queens for requeening. If still using mass produced queens from the same old breeders, then I'd take that statement with a grain of salt. If, on the other hand they are raising queens from their best stock, or buying queens from someone who does, then I'd say you're correct.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

BEES4U said:


> The best approach to modern bee keeping is genetics, I.P.M, and nutrition.


ipm seems to be a buzzword that is supposed to imply "natural"...the meaning of ipm changes considerably depending on who is using it. in fact, ipm seems to mean you can use whatever you want (including apistan/coumaphos) as long as you call it ipm.

ernie, what do you mean by ipm? specifically, what substances do you put in the hive as a part of your ipm? "ipm" tells us nothing

deknow


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

:lpf: We all know what assumptions do!

I confess, I'm simply a sideliner, augmenting my income with 50 hives, which I should reach next year. 

Here's what works for me, and why. This is based on my research on the forum, which is invaluable, and paying attention to the commercial beeks who post on the general side as well as the commercial side of this forum, and devouring Gleanings and the ABJ.

I buy nucs and queens (have bought packages) of what I call "survivor" stock. I have bought from Purvis (sorry he's selling out), B. Weaver, and Russian bees. Next spring I'm adding Minnesota queens and nucs to the mix. The following year seek to add VSH. I'm keeping my Russian bees in a separate apiary miles from my other sites. I am not using any chemicals, except the Nosema treatments early spring and fall after I pull honey. I am running slatted racks and screened bottom boards, trying to practice chemical-free IPM. I am going to go "foundationless" this next spring to eliminate chemically-laden foundation, and see how that works. I trap shb with the cd baited traps now, and those seem to be working well enough. I'll know more next year. I feed the pollen supplement patties to help health and build-up. The queens I use are for both splits and requeening. 

As Ernie mentioned above, it is crucial to do a total analysis of the problem, and program - genetics, nutrition, pest control, etc. And as Mike Bisham (sp?) has mentioned in his postings, genetics play a very important element. But only one element.

These things I have learned from Bee Culture, ABJ, curious hobbiests, dedicated sideliners, and commercial beeks seeking a way to profitably stay in the business. I have neither the time nor the money to become a leader on the cutting edge of beekeeping. I'll steal ideas from anyone and everyone if they'll work. :lpf:

But it seems to me the smart beeks, be they commercial, sideliner, or hobby/back yarder, are moving in the right direction - genetics, IPM, nutrition, etc. No silver bullet, no easy way of it. I miss the way it was 20-30 years ago. But there's no turning back. The smart ones take their chances and struggle to move forward, the rest scratch their heads wondering why they're having such losses and struggling to make a living. 

And I am so glad I discovered this forum... It is probably the most valuable place for information as we all struggle to keep bees.
Regards,
Steven


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