# How do you ventilate Layens hives?



## John T

On The link that you sent I see 2 bars
with a hole drilled in them with screen wire
attached to the bar to keep the bees
from using it as another entrance.....


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## jfh00jfh

Yes, there are holes in the cover. But because the top bars touch, with no gap between them, there's no way for air to get from the colony below the top bar up to the vents.

You could add vents to the body below the top bar but you'd want to close them before Winter.


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## little_john

jfh00jfh said:


> But *Layens frames touch side-to-side* so the air can’t go up between frames as it does on a Langstroth.


Do they ?


LJ


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## jfh00jfh

Yes, I see pics showing both styles. Some make Layens-type hive bodies to take standard Langstroth frames.

But the pic I posted above - from the site below - has the top bars touching. Other pics on the same site show frames covered with a piece or pieces of wood.

So, if the top bars touch, or are covered: how does air circulate up to the vents?

http://www.horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/layens-beehive-design.shtml


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## GregB

First, you need to show your location.
It could be in Montana or Georgia or anything in between (and that defines the context).

OK, there are two things disconnected from each other:

1) the "attic" ventilation - as the metal cover get hot, attic space below it gets hot too - hence you see the screened holes around the roof to help with the attic ventilation; 
notice, bees should not be in the attic - this is similar to people's houses attics (attic is not a conditioned space);
in my case, I have enough space in the attic for a honey super - just installed one today;
The frames are not required to be tightly locked - mine are not tight (handy for a honey super use-case).
I personally depend on burlap over the frames.

Ventilation in winter is a non-issue.
It is rather too much ventilation that I personally need to reduce some.






















2) the actual bee volume ventilation - today (July 1st) my Layens' hives have pretty much all entrances open (both ends); 
this is end-to-end ventilation facilitated with 2-3 inch under frame space and so the bees are free to push air around as they see fit;
as long as the hive is not over-filled with bees, they hardly ever beard out for (if they start doing that - time for swarm interception moves)
all it is to it.


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## little_john

jfh00jfh said:


> Yes, I see pics showing both styles. Some make Layens-type hive bodies to take standard Langstroth frames.
> 
> But the pic I posted above - from the site below - has the top bars touching. Other pics on the same site show frames covered with a piece or pieces of wood.
> 
> So, if the top bars touch, or are covered: how does air circulate up to the vents?
> http://www.horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/layens-beehive-design.shtml


Couldn't say. (via the open sides perhaps ?) 
The graphic I posted is from Georges De Layens' book (12th Edition). If other people are making non-authentic versions of the Layens Hive, then I guess it's down to them to explain the apparent absence of ventilation.

For myself, I've made a Deep Long Hive similar to that of the Layens 'a grenier' format, but dimensioned for British National extra-deep frames (for intra-apiary compatibility), fitted with a strip OMF (SBB) along one side of the floor - which works extremely well in practice - but it's certainly not a pukka Layens Hive. This is one version of the genuine article (again, showing open-sided frames):

 

and this is what I constructed:



After trials, I found that having the entrance located at one end of the hive, with the stores combs located towards the back of the hive, works better than having a central entrance with stores at both ends. I'm further considering replacing the space-occupying blocks with a slatted-rack arrangement, but the existing format works reasonably well-enough 'as is'. 
LJ


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## little_john

I think part of the problem here is a modification of the Layens Hive into something approaching a Top-Bar Hive. 

As you may or may not know, there are currently three variations of the original Layens Hive which have emerged over the years:

 

The 'a grenier' (granary) format was the first, but suffered from the same two problems as the original: the first being occasional separation of the cluster from one half of it's stores during winter; the other problem being the 'honey-barrier' which is created (as happens within nearly all Long Hives) when the colony completes the first few combs of honey - which then impede access and storage into the combs behind them. 

The 'pastorale' format was thus designed in order to address this, as the honey combs of vertical hives are all readily accessible and therefore the same kind of 'honey barrier' is never created.

The 'divisible' followed this, employing a uniform size of frame throughout - but as you can see, the hive is by now pretty-much indistinguishable from many other vertical-format beehives.

My own solution to the first problem was to place stores at one end - the number of honeycombs depending upon local conditions, thusly:

Because of the more-or-less non-existent honey-harvest in my own location, I've never yet witnessed a significant 'honey-barrier', and my bees rely mostly on stores held within their brood area - but for those beekeepers who enjoy a honey-harvest I can see two possibilities. The first is to rotate the shorter stores frames through 90 degrees, thus rendering them 'end-on'. The second is to fit a slatted rack underneath the existing array of stores combs, such that access from underneath those combs is vastly improved (as well as improved ventilation for 'honey-curing').

But - both of these ideas would of course need to pass 'the bee-test' before being considered as improvements.
LJ


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## GregB

little_john said:


> .....
> After trials, I found that having the entrance located at one end of the hive, with the stores combs located towards the back of the hive, works better than having a central entrance with stores at both ends. ...........LJ


+1
Essentially, once the nest is formed by one end (by the active entrance), later in summer the opposite entrance can be open temporarily too (for ventilation and secondary usage).
This will not change the original allocation of the nest being by the entrance and the stores being deeper into the hive.
Bees are already attached to their primary entrance and continue to be attached - not a problem.


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## GregB

little_john said:


> ...... the other problem being the 'honey-barrier' which is created (as happens within nearly all Long Hives) when the colony completes the first few combs of honey - which then impede access and storage into the combs behind them. .....
> LJ


Unsure if this is really the case IF the cross-section of the hive is large enough and passages are abundant.
I can see a long and skinny hive having such issue (say, a very long Land or a typical TBH - hives with small cross-section/small frame will have this issue IF very long).
Passage from an asymmetric entrance at one end to the opposing end of the hive - not a very ergonomic/efficient path.

However, if the hive is approaching a cuboid - less of an issue (requires larger frame/larger cross-section, of course - frames of Dadant/Layen's proper/Ukrainian dimensions).


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## jfh00jfh

(I added my location. Sorry, I thought I'd put it in when I signed up).

Thanks much for the thoughtful reply.

1. Good point about attic vs house (hive body) ventilation. We have moisture quilt boxes on our Langstroths which are a layer between the hot (or cold) roof and the hive bodies. 

You wrote "Ventilation in winter is a non-issue."

Some Langstroth folks argue that Winter ventilation is key - moisture is harder on bees than cold.

But of course the Layens hive is different setup. I'll keep reading about it. 

Maybe the vertical nature nature with heat and moisture rising to condense on the cold roof is the problem. 

2. My Layens hive has 2 entrances in one of the long sides but I see that others have one at each end.


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## jfh00jfh

Thanks for the reply. I have the same book, 2017, ed. by Leo Sharashkin. I used his plans to build our Layens hives (link below)

I'm about to reread the book as I think there are significant differences in method.

Mine has 2 entrances on one long side, not on the ends, per the pic I uploaded above.

Your entrances look like separate holes - or are they slots with guards?

Thanks again

https://www.horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/hive-frame-swarm-trap.shtml


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## jfh00jfh

Thanks for the additional info.

OK, I'm starting to get it: the "Layens hive" has variations and mods.

The 3 I built are something like a top-bar.

(Where are you in England BTW? I lived and worked in Reading for a bit.)

One I see is the addition of more space under the frames - 4" in one type. 

https://borrowedvesselsbeeworks.com/beehive/the-modified-layens-hive/


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## jfh00jfh

My Layens is more rectangle than cuboid - length 2Xwidth.

I see what you mean about passage-way size and traveling distance. There isn't much side clearance in mine; and the underneath space is ~2" or less


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## John T

jfh00jfh said:


> Yes, there are holes in the cover. But because the top bars touch, with no gap between them, there's no way for air to get from the colony below the top bar up to the vents.
> 
> You could add vents to the body below the top bar but you'd want to close them before Winter.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 49757


The hole i was talking about is in the top bar...
you also need them in the cover
if you make 2 or 3 bars like this...
you can add a quilt box








This is from the same link you put in your 1st post and where the pics i posted came from....

(This is because the space under the boards is more humid than the space above them.) Two of the boards have ventilation holes in the middle: 1-1/2” diameter, covered with metallic insect screen stapled into place from the bottom side. I place these vented cover boards towards each end of the box. Use insect screen to cover these openings (not 1/8” wire mesh, which will let small hive beetles and other vermin pass through it).


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## nickhefferan

with my Layens hives I built top bars that don't touch (like the ones in this link, but with Layens dimensions: http://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/deep-frame-do-it-yourself.shtml ) and use a cover cloth as an inner-cover. Easier to build the frames, the cover cloth still keeps the hive shut when the lid is lifted up, and a bit less opportunity for cross-combing when running foundationless.

I think with Dr. Leo's plans there is supposed to be a slight gap on either short end of the hive for air to vent up through the holes in the top cover, but other than that the only venting he builds into the plans are the entrances and the slot on the bottom of the hive. I think the idea there is that the hive is insulated enough to not have an issue with condensation forming in the winter, but I don't know if that's what happens or not. The touching top bars are a nice idea, but they can cause as many headaches as they cure.


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## jfh00jfh

Thanks John T. I see now how he shows multiple versions: Layens hive with frames touching; Layens hive with end frame pulled for ventilation; Layens hive with Langstroth-type frames, covered, with holes drilled in some (your pic).

In another version one of the frame slots is replaced with a small screen.

Net, you have a variety of ways to vent.

I'm going to reread the Layens book and then see what makes sense for the hives I've built.

And, yes, I use screen (fine mesh, not 1/8) over the vent holes.


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## jfh00jfh

I built my top bars to touch as this matched "Layens Hive — DR. LEO’S CHOICE" (link below). 

He mentions leaving the end open - removing a frame or 2 - which is what Layens says also.

But there are other folks with long hives who cover the frames with foam insulation for Winter. This would block any airflow up. ( But perhaps there are vents in the side I didn't see.)

I'm going to try pulling an end frame - or making a screen frame and covering with burlap - and we'll see. If I open it up some warm Winter day and find moisture, I'll know there's a problem.

Thanks for your comments



https://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/layens-beehive-design.shtml


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## jfh00jfh

[This has some info about insulating a long hive. I wouldn't have expected much heat to be escaping through the bottom.]

...'The standard Valkyrie comes with a canvas cover that fits over the top bars. The canvas is multipurpose, keeping the bees calm during inspection and conserving heat in the winter. An optional wool blanket fits in the space above the canvas cover. Naomi has found that the wool blanket not only keeps the bees warmer in winter, but temperature readings confirms it keeps the bees cooler in summer as well. Like a well-insulated home, the hive interior is protected from temperature extremes.
The optional hive stand

A really cool option to this hive is the insulated hive stand. Last winter, Naomi decided to use an infrared camera to monitor her hives in winter. What she discovered was a surprise. Her hives were insulated on top with the canvas covers and folded army blankets, so no heat was escaping through the lid. But much to her surprise (and mine!) heat was escaping from the bottom of the hive. She decided she needed a system to insulate the underside.

https://honeybeesuite.com/the-valkyrie-long-hive-built-with-love/


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## GregB

Why don't you review the existing discussions?

Here is a good start:
https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...ot-horizontal-hive-quot-topics-from-elsewhere


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## jfh00jfh

Thanks for the suggestion.

Those are good discussions but none I saw specifically addressed: if ventilation is key for Langstroth hives and quilt/ moisture boxes are requisite for may geo locations, how do closed-top Layens-type hives address this?

Specifically: if moisture removal is key for one type of hive, is it key for all.

Especially the idea that Layens' hives are designed to be visited 1-2 times/year and MOL take care of themselves.

I'm reading Layens book now and I hope to learn more there.

Thanks again.


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## GregB

jfh00jfh said:


> Thanks for the suggestion.
> 
> Those are good discussions but none I saw specifically addressed: if ventilation is key for Langstroth hives and quilt/ moisture boxes are requisite for may geo locations, how do closed-top Layens-type hives address this?
> 
> Specifically: if moisture removal is key for one type of hive, is it key for all.
> 
> Especially the idea that Layens' hives are designed to be visited 1-2 times/year and MOL take care of themselves.
> 
> I'm reading Layens book now and I hope to learn more there.
> 
> Thanks again.


Well, those commercial Lang hives have no under-frame space to speak off (often retro-mitigated by the under-frame racks, empty super box at the bottom, etc - for better moisture dissipation in winter). Also, a typical Lang keeper does not create an empty side air-pocket for better moisture dissipation.

Empty side-pockets/under-frame space are signature ways to winter in the Layen's (and the similar deep and long hives).

The moisture removal (your concern) is achieved by 
1)direct ventilation - up and out 
and/or 
2)dissipation to the drier volume of the hive due to moisture gradients - down and to the side

In reality, this is always some combination of #1 and #2 (and something else - say, wind exposure).

Long hives (unlike typical Langs) have better configuration for #2 (#1 still being a part of the picture) and so #2 is to be taken advantage off since you have it built-in.

Like I said, in my current setups I feel I allow for too MUCH ventilation in the cold season (subsequently, bees have to work harder to warm themselves - too much heat is lost from the cluster - energy is sucked away due to too much ventilation).
Will modify my follower boards to be tighter for this winter - there is too much drafting around them as it is now.

Regarding 1-2 visits per the year - I too believed into the story originally.
Now, I have to clarify - G. Layens was resident of Southern France or thereabouts - minimal care is needed for wintering - no care for the current mite situation either.
L. Sharashkin is in Southen MO (those pictures of his snowed hives - you just have smile at them - he really has no winter - I know, because I lived in the KC area for about 10 years).
Basically, if you are in the USDA 4 or bordering it - this will be more than 1-2 visits per year just so you can winterize the hives (end then undo it).
Also, L. Sharashkin must make it clear - 1-2 visits per a year are only possible if you do not have to deal with the mites at all (diff subject here) - not possible in the majority of locations.


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## Gray Goose

Hey I want to toss another idea on the pile.
IMO some moisture is "required" for the over winter. 
Bees if they want to make brood need to add water to the honey to make the food for brood. (normally they use nectar) Also there are some water requirements for the hive in the winter. So The bees will go to the water droplets and suck the water up to be used in the hive during winter, As you know flight out for water in Feb is not an option, where some of us keep bees. Again winter water need, this is my opinion , from Empirical observations. Too much ventilation can retard early spring brood up, due to no droplets of water in the hive when the bees need it. the the vapor to water droplet to bee water is something that is used for the bees water source in the winter. One key is to insulate the top of the hive, much better than the sides so if/when condensation develops, the drops do not fall on the winter cluster. As you move farther north this has more impact, most bee keepers do not deal with long cold winters. My best production hive right now was one that had Ice blocking the entrance in feb, causing me a bit of panic. Condensation ran down the sides and froze at the entrance. I was chipping ice and heating my hive tool with a torch and melting a hole thru it. From that I have a new style bottom for my langs that is going to have a first winter trial this fall. it has a place for the water to go and the "space" under the comb for the air to mix.

So to answer the question, (from the bottom) 

See attached pics, I also built a long deep from the plans in the book, I added a 4 inch drawer under the hive, to allow for extra air under the hive and debris to fall thru, and water to pool out of the hive in winter. The 2x2 in the pic, was placed for the "porch" effect and to set the 1.5 inch foam board on in winter. Most hives have 3/4 inch to separate the outside from the inside, the wall thickness basically. Most of our houses have a "entrance/porch" this is to better keep the cold out of the house, so this set up gives me 2 3/4 inch VRS 3/4 which is 8-10 bee widths, for **** sapiens it would be 8-10 foot porch, (8-10 people widths). 

So I would not try to "over vent" the Layens hive as long as you have space for water that is outside the comb area.
GG


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## jfh00jfh

Thanks for the comments.

I see more about bees suffering from too much moisture in Winter and I hadn't considered the opposite.

We slide a board under the screened bottoms of our Langstroths and think the 3/8x~15" entrance provides enough air flow.


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## Gray Goose

jfh00jfh said:


> Thanks for the comments.
> 
> I see more about bees suffering from too much moisture in Winter and I hadn't considered the opposite.


too much ventilation can be more stores consumed and a starve out , or late brood start and smallish cluster in the spring. Hard to pinpoint what causes these symptoms as many things can. In your trial ventilation try to make something you can throttle. Open a bit or close a bit. I think too much air flow would have issues. open below will allow exchange via Gases flowing to a less saturated area. On my hive I build i considered a "pipe" with a "T" top. maybe 12-30 inch and adjust the height to create less or more chimney effect. 3/4 to 1 inch was my starting point. Give a try and let us know in the spring how they fared.
GG


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## jfh00jfh

I have 2 2" screened round holes in the bottom and I have covers that can be attached over them to close/restrict.

I also made a full-width quilt box for the top with sides that can be slid up to restrict the vents.

And I have 2 frame-width screens that can replace frames.

Layens in his book shows Winter venting with one frame removed from the end and the opening covered with burlap.


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## Gray Goose

jfh00jfh said:


> I have 2 2" screened round holes in the bottom and I have covers that can be attached over them to close/restrict.
> 
> I also made a full-width quilt box for the top with sides that can be slid up to restrict the vents.
> 
> And I have 2 frame-width screens that can replace frames.
> 
> Layens in his book shows Winter venting with one frame removed from the end and the opening covered with burlap.


that seems like lots of ventilation. depending on how windy the hive location is. I started with None, and am considering a 1.5 inch hole in a drawer, screened, and a 3/4 inch PVC pipe appx 20 inches, sticking out the top, VIA an end hole. I made mine for the Lang frames double deep so I have an air space between the top of the frames and the bottom of the boards going over the top, Drill out from there on the opposite end the bees are on.


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## jfh00jfh

I agree, it could be too much ventilation. I imagine we'll choke most of it off for Winter.

But bee heat creates moisture where it hits the outside cold air. Some folks with Langstroths like to tilt the hive forward so condensation runs down the front and drips out.

Our hive is unoccupied for now - unless we get a Fall swarm, we'll put a slit or swarm in it next Spring


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## Gray Goose

jfh00jfh said:


> I agree, it could be too much ventilation. I imagine we'll choke most of it off for Winter.
> 
> But bee heat creates moisture where it hits the outside cold air. Some folks with Langstroths like to tilt the hive forward so condensation runs down the front and drips out.


that is what I did was to tilt, the water ran out and froze a inch or 2 out the door , built up until the door way was all blocked with ICE. It was a 3/4 inch thick on the bottom board. Also once melted made a mess with the crumbs of wax and dead bees in the spring. Hence a screened enclosed drawer bottom. I have 2 with bees in so i'll have insight in the spring if it works. Solid does not in very cold conditions.
GG


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## jfh00jfh

We've had good luck with wood-hip filled quilt boxes so far. The moisture hits the cold air on top of the chips after rising out of the hive.


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> *too much ventilation can be more stores consumed and a starve out , or late brood start and smallish cluster in the spring. * Hard to pinpoint what causes these symptoms as many things can. In your trial ventilation try to make something you can throttle. Open a bit or close a bit. I think too much air flow would have issues. open below will allow exchange via Gases flowing to a less saturated area. On my hive I build i considered a "pipe" with a "T" top. maybe 12-30 inch and adjust the height to create less or more chimney effect. 3/4 to 1 inch was my starting point. Give a try and let us know in the spring how they fared.
> GG


This was my problem last season and cost some of the losses (pretty sure).
The technical issue - I have the follower boards that allow free air flow on three sides (bottom and the sides).
This is too much if the winter turns hard (as it did the last season).
For the coming cold season am planning to staple some material to the follower boards (creating gaskets) so to restrict air on the sides.

As depicted here:
https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...er-board-in-a-long-Lang&p=1713947#post1713947

I now changed my mind about complete and free access on three sides of the follower board (due to excessive ventilation in winter as I now believe).
Instead, will provide 1-2 small holes directly through the board (warm way entrances through the board).
Like so:


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## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> This was my problem last season and cost some of the losses (pretty sure).
> The technical issue - I have the follower boards that allow free air flow on three sides (bottom and the sides).
> This is too much if the winter turns hard (as it did the last season).
> For the coming cold season am planning to staple some material to the follower boards (creating gaskets) so to restrict air on the sides.
> 
> As depicted here:
> https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...er-board-in-a-long-Lang&p=1713947#post1713947
> 
> I now changed my mind about complete and free access on three sides of the follower board (due to excessive ventilation in winter as I now believe).
> Instead, will provide 1-2 small holes directly through the board (warm way entrances through the board).
> Like so:
> View attachment 50709


Greg, see the last PIC on this page http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beek15.htm
some sort of a gasket would do the trick, or maybe 2,, 1 firm and short and one bigger and soft, like inner tube and then burlap on top of it


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## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Greg, see the last PIC on this page http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com/beek15.htm
> some sort of a gasket would do the trick, or maybe 2,, 1 firm and short and one bigger and soft, like inner tube and then burlap on top of it


Yes, something of the sort.


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## lobottomee

jfh00jfh said:


> We have quilt boxes with vents on our Langstroth hives. Air comes through the bottom screen and up through the spaces between the frames. In Winter we close the bottom screen but still get venting through the quilt box – venting is arguably more important in Winter to evaporate moisture.
> 
> I just built a Layens hive to the spec below. It has vents in the bottom and cover; and the cover is set up so that there’s a ~2” space between the frames and the inside of the cover.
> 
> But Layens frames touch side-to-side so the air can’t go up between frames as it does on a Langstroth.
> 
> You could of course space the frames eg. 1/8”/side. But Layens frames are made to maintain the bee-space with top-bars touching so you’d have too much space inside if you spaced them apart.
> 
> Anyone have experience with Layens hives and/or ideas about venting Horizontal hives? Or just venting in general?
> 
> https://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/ventilation-long-langstroth.shtml
> 
> …’Layens horizontal hives have many advantages over Long Langstroth hives. Layens frames are better size for colony development and wintering. Top bars of Layens frames touch, minimizing heat loss during winter and bee disturbance during inspections. The space above Layens frames is well-ventilated, removing moisture and preventing overheating in the summer. In winter, this space can be filled with insulation.


Jumping into this thread late. Touching top bars should not matter. Every hive has water vapor inside it, both winter and summer. The danger to the bees is from when that vapor condenses to a liquid, and where the condensation occurs. Assume you have a typical hive with no insulation. So long as the temperature of the air inside the hive stays above the dew point, water will stay in a vapor phase. But as temperature drops and approaches the dew point, vapor starts to condense. Since the coldest air is near the walls, ceiling, and floor of the hive, that's where condensation will occur, similar to water condensing on the inside of a bathroom window after a shower during the winter. If water condenses on the ceiling of a hive, it can subsequently drip down on the cluster, which is very damaging. 

The trick is to control where the water will condense. If you insulate the top of the hive, the ceiling will stay warmer than the sides and bottom. In that case, water vapor will condense on the sides or bottom of the hive and so cannot drip down on the cluster. 

In the Layens with touching top bars, if you insulate the top bars heavier than the walls, the air near the sides and bottom of the hive will be cooler than the air near the top of the frames, and thus water vapor will condense in those areas. If the temperature in the overall hive stays above the dew point, condensation will occur near the entrance opening, because that's where the coldest air is. I have seen some posts here that describe ice near the opening, which makes perfect sense under certain circumstances.

Keep in mind when thinking about ventilation that there are two purposes; one for allowing air into the hive for bees to breathe, the other for removing vapor heavy air from the hive to control condensation. If you manage condensation well you will need very little in the way of ventilation for breathing purposes. 

Bees naturally will reduce the size of their entrance hole in a tree cavity going into winter. I have overwintered hives successfully with just an entrance hole the size of my finger. But in both cases condensation has to be controlled.

In a tree cavity, the ceiling has the rest of the tree trunk above it to serve as insulation. The sides of the cavity are relatively thin compared to the top so any condensation will occur on the sides or near the entrance. 

It's also interesting that bees want to completely seal the inside of their hive, making it so neither air nor water vapor can enter at any other place other than the entrance. By doing so they can control the inner micro climate with regards to temperature and humidity. 

So if you insulate the top of the closed bars in your Layens hive, I don't think you need to worry about anything else.

Just my thoughts.


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## jfh00jfh

Thanks, good summary of condensation


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## fatshark

little_john said:


> After trials, I found that having the entrance located at one end of the hive, with the stores combs located towards the back of the hive, works better than having a central entrance with stores at both ends. I'm further considering replacing the space-occupying blocks with a slatted-rack arrangement, but the existing format works reasonably well-enough 'as is'.
> LJ


Interesting hive and, ahem, 'interesting' clickbait on the imgbox-hosted images.

Does that take a dozen 14 x 12's (or similar)? Are they corks blocking the entrance at the 'honey' end? Presumably these are a remnant of the earlier design and you don't open these during a strong nectar flow?


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## little_john

A slight correction re: 'touching' top-bars - that's not how Layens Hives were designed (at least not according to the 12th Edition of De Layens' book). As the frames fit into registration slots at the bottom of the hive, they cannot be slid along the rebate (rabbet in the US) as can be done with other hives - they must either be lifted clear, or tilted back. In order to do this, and avoid the need to 'crack' the propolis seal between touching bars, De Layens fitted V-shaped closures between the frames thus (any errors in translation are mine):

*The following graphics are NOT thumbnails - so to avoid seeing adverts, DON'T CLICK ON THEM !*



> Fig. 25 (Hive frames) shows a side view of the frames C, C, C, partition boards p, P, and the V's.
> Stand on the side of the hive, in front of the partition board P [on the right], for example. After detaching the first V, pull that partition board at its middle; thanks to the hinges it will fold in two, and will easily detach itself from the hive. Replace it, one step closer to you, and after replacing it, check to see that it's between the two black spots M, N, which serve to locate its vertical [sic - horizontal *(*)*] position. We see in fig. 25 then, the partition board in it's new position.
> Then detach V no. 2, then frame no. 1; after checking it, you place that frame in the notch where the partition board was. Put a V between that frame and the partition board. Continue the same process with all of the frames.
> 
> Here is another method that is preferably used to add or remove one or more frames from a colony. One inclines towards oneself the partition board without removing it,
> 
> 
> 
> fig. 26 (Frames as seen from the side);
> 
> the same thing is done for each frame, adding the V's as in the first method; and we continue until we have reached the frame we want to remove. After removing it, advance the other frames and partition board a notch. To add a frame to a hive, we operate as above, with the only difference being that, at the same time as the frames are inclined, they are moved one step until you reach the position where you want add a new one. *We must be careful when removing frames, not to rub them against each other, which irritates the bees.
> 
> Georges de Layens, Elevage Des Abeilles, 12th Ed.*


Touching top bars would have been a far simpler solution, but it would appear that De Layens saw advantages in using the above V-closures.

LJ

*(*) *The black dots indicate the *horizontal position*, in order to maintain a *vertical orientation*.


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## GregB

little_john said:


> A slight correction re: 'touching' top-bars - that's not how Layens Hives were designed ......


Maybe Leo Sharashkin (the current US-based Layen's hive promoter) got a whiff of this video; I never asked.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9rqtzUp1lM&list=PLIj2RKv-eFnmbXGm3OEHEZyfaZFlyCM2R

Seems as if a current touching-bar hive implementation in the Spain-proper seem to be working fine for them (to be sure, Spain is compatible to the very deep South of the US).


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## little_john

fatshark said:


> Does that take a dozen 14 x 12's (or similar)? Are they corks blocking the entrance at the 'honey' end? Presumably these are a remnant of the earlier design and you don't open these during a strong nectar flow?


Sorry for the delay in replying - that hive now houses up to twenty 14x12 frames (or a mix of 14x12's and Deeps). The provision of entrances at both ends came about largely by accident: during it's lifetime that hive has been operating as a test-bed, and has had entrance holes in just about every conceivable position. One of the last major modifications to the hive was to restore it's depth to 12"+, having trialled the hive with standard Deep National frames for a couple of seasons. 

Having then extended the depth by adding around 3" at the bottom, I decided to leave the existing 'Deep National' entrances 'as was' (that is, at both ends) in order that - should the colony start-off the season with a brood nest positioned at the back of the hive (as a result of stores having previously being held there) - I'd simply then reverse the entrance position rather than shuffle frames around, so that in each ensuing year the entrance position would thus alternate. This has indeed been the case in some years but not in others, when I've found that the brood nest location has been located somewhere near the middle of the hive - for reasons which have never been entirely obvious.

De Layens also created entrances at both ends, but with a slightly different rationale:


> In order to increase or decrease the size of the hive at will, we use boards that can be put in the place of a frame. These boards are called partition boards.
> For example, a number of frames may be placed in the middle of the hive between two partition boards, fig. 11 (plan view of the beehive), in this case the hive entrance is in the middle.
> You can also use only one board; and the frames will then be placed at each end of the hive, either to the right or to the left; it will then be necessary to have two entrances for bees, one at each end of the hive, depending on whether the frames are placed at one end. I adopted the latter system as simpler.


'best
LJ


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## RPA2019

Yes Greg, Leo did get a whiff of this video. I went to one of his seminars earlier this year and he showed us this exact video.


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## GregB

RPA2019 said:


> Yes Greg, Leo did get a whiff of this video. I went to one of his seminars earlier this year and he showed us this exact video.


LOL! I figured.

After my first winter struggles with these top bars (trivial dry sugar feeding was a major PITA) - I said - forget about it.
That is Spain there.
Not here.


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## little_john

GregV said:


> Seems as if a current touching-bar hive implementation in the Spain-proper seem to be working fine for them (to be sure, Spain is compatible to the very deep South of the US).


Hi Greg
The reason I think that touching frames are less than ideal, is due to the inevitable build-up of propolis, whether this be between top-bars or Hoffman side-bars, which gradually increases the frame spacing distance.

I believe that most humans tend to see the comb itself as being the basic 'unit' (for lack of a better word) of a beehive - which is not surprising, as the combs present themselves as objects, whereas the space between combs is not quite so apparent. So - we tend to think of bees living/ working/ hanging-out etc *on top* of combs, rather than in the spaces *between* them. Perhaps we ought to think of the area between mid-ribs as being what's important (as in 'B' below, rather than 'A')



So - what Layens did was to place marks on the sides of the rebate (rabbet) so that the frames would always be returned to exactly the same position, with the V-closures effectively providing immunity from any propolis build-up between those closures and the frame top-bars - thus ensuring that the all-important spacing between combs is maintained. That assumes of course that the frames are replaced in the same position after being removed for inspection.

Edit: the use of a 'soft' Crown Board (Inner Cover) would, of course, do exactly the same job. De Layens recommends cloth which has been soaked in wax for this purpose. 
LJ


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## GregB

little_john said:


> Hi Greg
> The reason I think that touching frames are less than ideal, is due to the inevitable build-up of propolis, whether this be between top-bars or Hoffman side-bars, which gradually increases the frame spacing distance.......
> LJ


LJ, exactly.

Scraping the propolis off the wooden ware is a chore I never have time for.
So my 1.25" frame as a default is a good default - since effectively it is always MORE than 1.25".
Eventually, the frames become 1.5" and more and more - really have to scrape them back down.

I can understand the Layens motivation for the static frame positions (that in itself creates another hassle, however - which I rather avoid).


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## paulb

Hi all. I have just completed a modified or insulated Layens hive. I too have wrangled with ventilation and have come up with the following

As my roof is pent with gables, I put a 13/8" screened hole at either end up near the apex on the gables.
I also followed the thinking in Keeping Bees with a Smile and cut a slot (just 6mm wide) the full length of the hive in the roof board and screened it
The roof void is filled lightly with rock-wool insulation which is aqua-phobic and air goes through it easily
I have also constructed a Follower board that is hollow and the top bar is vented with 2 x 3/4" screened holes, the faces of this board have 2x 44mm screened holes which the bees will propalise as needed. 
So the air comes in the entrance, mixes with the very warm air of the hive then will go through the follower board into the dead space under the roof board then up into the attic space then out. 
My thinking is an indirect path will slow down the flow and also allow the bees to do what they do best - regulate their own heat and space.
I have used something similar in a National in the roof space which the bees propalised to regulate flow, removing the sludge themselves as summer comes along.
Why oh why do people flap so and insist on out-thinking their charges? Keep it simple - give them enough ventilation for summer and then let them throttle it down for themselves when the colder weather comes.


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## Absinthe

Lazutin seemed to feel that they didn't really need much more ventilation than what was provided by the entrance and the small vent at the bottom. I am pretty sure he was more concerned with maintaining the temperature than venting the humidity. And, not sure what other people think of Ed Clark, but in his book Constructive Beekeeping, he feels you can remove more moisture with the condensation operation than with ventilation. So it would seem in his ideas you want the top insulated and the walls less so, that way as the walls cool and condensation happens on then the water runs down the sides of the walls and pools at the bottom, where the bees can use it if they want, or I guess it could drain or whatever. Just a thought. 

https://biobees.com/library/general..._articles/ConstructiveBeekeeping_EdClarke.pdf


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## paulb

Hi Absinthe, only problem with little insulation and water pooling in a hive - rot!
The floor space is best covered with a layer of hardwood sawdust and small chippings to soak up any pooling and store it for later use. I used oak dust and debris as I had it available. Oak contains a natural acid which small hive beetle and VD mites find offensive so I will feedback results in Spring. Bees apparently seek out Oak in the UK (European Oak) to build wild colonies, so I guess they like it.


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## Absinthe

Is that tannic acid? If the bees don't mind it perhaps we can start feeding them sweet tea, I think here in the south that is about 2:1 anyway  I do get that once it makes its way down the walls sitting on bare wood would cause some rotting issues, but perhaps that might be reason to properly finish bottom boards, or at least install a drain or two in them... or create a positive pitch in their design. The Clarke read was kind of interesting. I have not been able to find out any bio on him or any other books that he wrote. But like everything it all sounds great until someone disproves it. I haven't seem any specifics for or against it. I also haven't seen to much on the eco-floors lately and I was getting bombarded with info about them 2 months ago.


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## paulb

Absinthe said:


> Is that tannic acid? If the bees don't mind it perhaps we can start feeding them sweet tea, I think here in the south that is about 2:1 anyway  I do get that once it makes its way down the walls sitting on bare wood would cause some rotting issues, but perhaps that might be reason to properly finish bottom boards, or at least install a drain or two in them... or create a positive pitch in their design. The Clarke read was kind of interesting. I have not been able to find out any bio on him or any other books that he wrote. But like everything it all sounds great until someone disproves it. I haven't seem any specifics for or against it. I also haven't seen to much on the eco-floors lately and I was getting bombarded with info about them 2 months ago.


Yes it would be tannic acid. Come to think of it it could be why I recently had to share my morning cuppa with several busy bees! 
I think I will coat the bottom of my hive with Danish oil before use. It's seasoning in the garden currently. 
As Danish oil contains mostly organic components, once the solvent has evaporated it should not be dangerous to the bees.
I did think about using a coating of waterproof PVA, but as it is a plastic I thought better not.
Eco-floors are last weeks news. Important as they are, so many folk were making them "the next big thing" they seemed to forget eco-floors have been around for longer than humans have!
Good ventilation cures most things hive wise, insulation ditto, the bees know how to control their own environment. 
Such a pity we don't know how to control ours.......


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## Absinthe

paulb said:


> Yes it would be tannic acid. Come to think of it it could be why I recently had to share my morning cuppa with several busy bees!
> I think I will coat the bottom of my hive with Danish oil before use. It's seasoning in the garden currently.
> As Danish oil contains mostly organic components, once the solvent has evaporated it should not be dangerous to the bees.
> I did think about using a coating of waterproof PVA, but as it is a plastic I thought better not.
> Eco-floors are last weeks news. Important as they are, so many folk were making them "the next big thing" they seemed to forget eco-floors have been around for longer than humans have!
> Good ventilation cures most things hive wise, insulation ditto, the bees know how to control their own environment.
> Such a pity we don't know how to control ours.......


FWIW, you could use polyurethane, once cured it is food safe, well so says the FDA. Not sure how well it does for exposure to the elements. How about primer and 2 coats of exterior paint?


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## paulb

Poly and paints also contain undesirable chemicals despite being "Food Safe"

Bees - love them, have an annoying habit of chewing hives from the inside so anything you use inside has to be safe.

That's why I thought of Danish Oil - a mixture of natural waxes, oils - usually a drying oil like Tung, and natural resins.
Waterproof enough and nothing to kill my housekeeper bees.

Tung oil alone is used in China to coat hives inside and out.


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## Absinthe

I get it. And we are talking about the bottom board. How many people have as d don't do anything inside the hive let the bees take care of it. But it's a bottom board. So either plan on replacing it often, making it from something that doesn't rot, or protect it with something. We are not using lead paint. We could use screens with reflectech underneath too 🙂


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