# And so it begins...



## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

*INTRODUCTION:*
My intent for this thread is to chronicle the successes and failures of my apiary. I have written on here a few times and people expressed an interest in seeing how things pan out for me. This will be the thread that I will continually update as the years progress. 

Here's a quick rundown of my goals and plans as I start this adventure: I plan to be completely treatment free from the beginning. I'm an all-or-nothing sort of person. I _may_ do some mite counts in the fall to help inform plans for the following season, and see how tolerant (if at all) my bees are. I plan to feed sugar as little as possible, this may mean a season or more without a honey crop. I'm fine with that. I hope to be self-contained after not too long. This means that I'll likely start raising my own queens from those who survive in order to avoid buying more bees and queens from suppliers (except maybe the occasional TF queen from a known TF apiary). Swarms and cutouts will be taken when possible, but I'm not sure there're many natural colonies this far north. I'll likely just be catching commercial bees, i think. I am running top entrances on all hives with solid bottom boards and, currently, no ventilation holes. Entrances on all hives are about 3 bees wide and 3/8" tall. I can upsize them later if I want.

Original plan was all 8-frame mediums (one guess where I got that idea). After deciding to buy a nuc, I realized I'd be getting deep frames with nowhere to put them. I bought and assembled a couple deep boxes. 

*IT STARTS:*
Yesterday, 4/6, I obtained and installed the first bees in my new TF apiary. A 3 hour drive to Mann Lake, where I had reserved my overpriced package, was followed by a trip to a nearby commercial keeper I found on Craigslist. From him I bought two Nucs and a box with ten frames of comb in various states. Most of the comb was very nicely drawn, only a couple had small patches of drone comb. Many had quite a bit of bee bread from previous colonies, which is nice since there's not currently much pollen in my area. Some of the frames had some mold on them, but I think the bees will clean them up pretty easily. My opinion was that moldy comb is better than no comb, we'll see if that backfires at all. 

*INSTALLATION:*
I had to cut down the ten-frame box to fit my eight-frame bottom board. I had originally intended to only have mediums, but when I decided to buy a nuc a few weeks ago, I knew it would be easiest to have a couple deep boxes as well, for the nuc frames. At that time I had only intended to buy one nuc. But I somewhat impulsively (thought about it only a day or two) bought two nucs, so needed a third deep box. I bought it from the nuc supplier figuring I could temporarily cut it down and replace it later.

The two nucs were not the same, one had four frames and a frame feeder, one had five frames. I was in a bit of a daze during the experience as it was my first time around that many bees. Clearly my inexperience misled me here. I should have gotten two 5-frame nucs.

The nuc with four frames got two empty deep frames on the outside edges (one on each side), followed by two frames of empty comb, then the brood frames from the nuc. This queen had an exceptional brood pattern. That deep box then got a medium box with empty frames above it.

The second nuc (with 5 frames) I was not critical enough of during purchase. The keeper showed me a nice dense laying pattern and we found the queen and I bought it. Had I looked harder, I would have seen the chalkbrood. It got two empty frames on the outside edges, one frame of empty comb, and then the frames were transferred. It also got a medium box of empty frames on top. I scraped off some pink patty from the top of one frame, looked like a pollen substitute or something...

The package then had 7 frames of drawn comb with a bunch of pollen (and a bit of mold to clean up...) along with one empty deep frame in the lower box. A medium upper box with empty frames. I'm glad to have been able to purchase the drawn comb. I think that will give the package a good leg-up. I used direct release method as advised by Mann Lake. Probably best so she can start laying right away, which she can because they have comb.

I fed none of them. I put the remaining food from the package back in the package box about 20 feet from all hives, (open feed the rest of it). 

In all, the installation went really well. I did not bring my smoker, forgetting that I was getting nucs. I knew not to use a smoker while installing the package. I forgot my longsleeve shirt and pants, so ended up in my shorts and t-shirt with my veil on. no gloves, I see the advice against leather gloves as very valuable after almost squashing a bee under my finger. I felt it's wings flapping frantically, but am not certain I would have felt that with gloves. I do have some thin nitrile gloves that I brought and did not use. I'll make sure to have them in the future in case a colony gets testy in a dearth or when queenless, etc.

*Chalkbrood:*
The nuc boxes were in the keepers yard when I arrived. He had not made them specifically for me, they were waxed or plasticized cardboard. there were some of his hives in the yard as well as twenty or so of these cardboard nuc boxes. I do not know how long they were there. He seemed picky while selling them, looking for a queen with a good laying pattern. He dismissed a few hives after glancing at the frames because he said the pattern was not good enough to sell. This inspired a bit of trust in me, and since I was certainly out of my element, I didn't look hard enough at the second nuc he chose. It was clear right away when I started transferring the frames that something was wrong. I saw about 3 or 4 white, hardened, shriveled mummies in cells on one frame and a few on others as well, when I had removed all the frames from the box, there were many mummies on the bottom of the box that had been pulled from the cells, but not removed from the hive yet. These prevented me from knocking the loose bees from the box into the hive (I didn't want all that trash in the hive at the start). I knocked the bees onto the ground in front of the hive.

One of the frames, while being removed from the nuc, came up with some soggy cardboard attached to the bottom. Since the cardboard had been sitting in his yard for some time, I am certain that it had been rained on, possibly snowed on too. My hope is that the chalkbrood is mostly a product of the moisture problem arising from wet cardboard as a hive. I think I remember reading something about chalkbrood being related to wet conditions. Please tell me if I'm wrong. I haven't had time in the last day to research it again, will soon. The new location for my hive is near the top of a fairly dry, grassy hill. Runoff does not collect within several hundred feet of the hives, so it should be the driest location possible (without building a lean-to). In all, chalkbrood is not one of the scariest things I could have, to start. It's not ideal, but hopefully does not kill or weaken this colony too much from the onset. 

*WRAP IT UP...*
In all, I think everything went swimmingly for my first experience with bees. Well, second, if you count the stings I got walking through the other apiary (I don't). I certainly walked away with a spring in my step and am very happy to have finally gotten started. The package installation was the most intimidating going into the whole thing, and it seemed to go really well. I'm think the comb probably helped. I'll go out again next weekend and take a quick peek to see how things are developing.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

*oops, I forgot...*

*BEST LAID PLANS:*
I recently heard that M. Bush is planning on selling queens this summer. I originally had no intention of requeening, rather I was just hoping something would live and that I might find a swarm or something to introduce some better genetics than the commercials. As of now, I hope that he does manage to sell some this summer. I hope to get two queens from MB and either split a strong hive to introduce one and re-queen one of the nucs _or_ stick with three hives and choose some to requeen or not. I'd really like to keep the commercial genetics just to see what happens, hopefully I'll be able to start a nuc.

Winter is both a long way away and loomingly close. I think I'm going to move my hives together and build a wrap out of pink insulating foam. Tar paper, or those corrugated plastic wraps _really _don't seem like they'd be enough for this climate. I need to meet some local beeks...


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Hey monkey
Have you got any extra hive bodys? Just a suggestion. If you feed, it might be better (at least in my view) to keep the feed in the hive and under cover. I had a bad experiance once.

I went into winter with three hives from two swarms and a bought one. The bought one got to my 3 medium hope for a brood nest. The two swarms got to almost two mediums.

I have not treated with anything yet.

This year those hives have made 5 starts (splits) for a total of 8 hives/nucs and all were made because the bees fourced me. One swarmed and so I split it also to try and keep it from after swarms. One had queen cups and so I split it to try and keep it from swarming. It has since swarmed two more times and I have hived them. I was trying to keep them as one but they gave me no choice. I only have one that is still original.

I don't think you will need to work very hard for some increase next year with out really having to set up queen rearing and such unless you really want to build alot and fast.

I did feed over all about a hundred pounds to the three hives with most of it shoved in late fall. I believe the would have built more comb if I had given them some when I hived them but I sorta wanted to see what they could do on there own with out me. I didn't want them to die and so in the end I made sure they were pretty heavy and also put a sugar block on of about 15 lbs each. 

I only tell you this so I can tell you my view. I am feeding the swarms early this year and will probly keep at it untill they have at least one medium full of comb and maby two. I gave the bees nothing but foundationless frames when I hived then and so now know they can get by on there own except maby to watch the winter weight. I am going to feed for more comb though.

I hope you keep reporting and do well also. I will read it.
Good luck
gww

Ps not sure if I am going to get any honey this year or not but am thinking I will get some but not near as much if I had been a good enough bee keeper to keep the hives from swarming. This is just a guess off of last years experiance.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

*Re: oops, I forgot...*

yep, it's official now. thanks for starting the thread and i'm looking forward to seeing how things progress for you. picking the brains of some local beeks is a good idea. best of luck to you with your bees mcbean!


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Monkey
I am in zone 5b. I did not wrap and my hives are crap as far as gaps and extra entrances but what I did do besides the shim with sugar block and about a 3/4 inch hole in the shim is, My new brother inlaw was building a new house and made a mistake and had to break up some 2 inch blue insulation. I put one piece of that between the inner cover and the telescoping cover. It did not look like I got any moisture problims in my hives over winter. I don't know if you want to know this or not. I will do the same this year but probly with out the sugar blocks cause I think I will have enough drawn comb this year to hold winter stores even if I have to feed for weight. I am not trying to advise so much as to tell you what I did and that seemed to work one time. I am hoping this helps in some way but not pushing my way as best.

Good luck
gww


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

gww said:


> I only tell you this so I can tell you my view. I am feeding the swarms early this year and will probly keep at it untill they have at least one medium full of comb and maby two. I gave the bees nothing but foundationless frames when I hived then and so now know they can get by on there own except maby to watch the winter weight. I am going to feed for more comb though.


Thanks for sharing your experience. I have certainly considered feeding. Definitely need lots more comb, but I don't think the hassle, time, and money (especially money) make it worth it for me. I'm already significantly spending more money than i expected at the outset. I've got ten boxes I need to assemble, and I need to buy more frames. If I do expand to a fourth soon, I'll need to buy even more boxes... I don't think I can justify buying 100 pounds of sugar and investing the time necessary for that whole thing. If i think i'm going into winter light, I'll put some sugar blocks on top and hope for the best. 

Maybe I'll have the same reaction you did and starting feeding next year...


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Monkey


> Maybe I'll have the same reaction you did and starting feeding next year...


I felt the same last year as you plus I wanted to know for myself if they could do it and also if I could maby learn my flows a bit from them, I did however right before winter get scared and slam some safety feed to them. 100 lbls is not as much as you think either. I am cheating this year cause somebody gave me 350 lbs of sugar but I had made my mind up to feed anyway just so I might see what differrence (or not) that it might make in build up. I do not know that answer yet cause I just started trying it this year.

I did catch the swarms and so that makes it a little easier to throw a little feed. I am a very cheap person and pretty much started a year late because of that cheepness and only bought one hive when I did start. I tried trapping first and was unsuccessful and than after I bought my hive but before I got it I caught two swarms. Funny huh. It does not take long to spend a lot of money if you want to do everything to the max. Me, I just want to barily get by. But I do get scared sometimes and act.
Cheers
gww


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

> Entrances on all hives are about 3 bees wide and 3/8" tall. I can upsize them later if I want.


Best wishes for success. I would consider having the entrances a little wider at first and a good bit wider as you progress. See if you can find someone nearby or in similar conditions that is treatment free and do what they do. I like your overall plan, but I am concerned about your being treatment free with generically sourced queens. I don't treat, and I've never treated, but, all things considered, I might very well treat starting out in your location until I could find locally adapted feral or treatment free bees.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Welcome to sharing your experience with us, Monkey!  :thumbsup:

The susceptibility to chalk brood is in the genes but climate conditions and the ability to climate the hive by the bees will start a breakout or not.
So I would watch this and probably shift the queen.

You need comb in late summer for the bees to store the nectar. Up to fall they use all comb for brood. No spare comb for honey then. This depends much on the flow situation but if they have to build comb, dry and store nectar and still breed in fall the flow must be very good and the weather accordingly.
I would feed now to have them build comb if you can afford this.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

congrats, May there be more ups then downs!


Riverderwent said:


> I am concerned about your being treatment free with generically sourced queens. I don't treat, and I've never treated, but, all things considered, I might very well treat starting out in your location until I could find locally adapted feral or treatment free bees.


much respect to the that statement
but if I may
I would say monitor mites (and every one is shocked )
no point in taking any action(soft to hard) if they don't need it, no point in withholding action if they do. 

a swarm is one thing, packed with honey and ready to draw comb at more or less the start of the main flow 
packages and nucs are a different story as they are unnatural so to speak and often outsiders 
as usual SiWolKe is spot on.. a deep comb costs 2 pounds of honey, Sugar is cheap, bees are expensive. you just spent how much? 
$50 in sugar is a pittance, as is (as is Riverderwent eludes to) $10 in OA if needed to protect the investment till you can bring in, or what you have proves out TF for your area.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

gww said:


> Hey monkey
> Have you got any extra hive bodys? Just a suggestion. If you feed, it might be better (at least in my view) to keep the feed in the hive and under cover. I had a bad experiance once.


What was the issue with open feeding?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Monkey
I had one hive and it was raining. I put a chiken waterer about 20 feet (give or take) on top of an empty long lang hive that was sitting there cause I thought the wether would only let my bees at the feed in the few clear hours or minutes the wether allowed. Now I never did really think that hive was queen right but even with the rain, everytime it cleared a little, the hive started getting robbed like crazy. Lots of fighting and leg pulling. I had the guy I got it from come and get it because he had resources to prop it up. My view is that robbing is real. Yesterday or the day before, I hived a swarm and put a feeder on it that leaked and had sugar water coming out the entrance, there are a bunch of dead bees in front of the hive now. I believe I killed quite a few while hiving it but also thing some of the other hives were testing the new one. I have been pretty lucky even when feeding if I keep it in the hive but even then I watch like a hawk. I have also hear that there is usually something wrong with hives that are getting robbed but also hear that most nucs are moved out of the home yard they are made in to keep the chance of robbing down.

Feeding is dangerous but feeding just a little amount in the open creates a compatition for the small amount. There are big guys that bulk up large numbers of hives with 50 gal barrels but they are giving all the bees can take really fast. Slow open feeding is dangerous in small amounts in my opinion based on my one insident with the chiken waterer.

I have seen many that agree with my view and a few that do open feed and say they have no issue. Lastly, Why feed all the neibors bees.
Good luck
gww


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

gww said:


> Why feed all the neighbors bees?


...and take a chance on adulterating someone else's honey crop with your sugar water.

if there is a good nectar flow you shouldn't need to feed. if you must feed an internal feeder is less likely to attract robbers and more likely keep you on good terms with neighboring beekeepers.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

yep
http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php...00-78/honey-red-beekeepers-according.html.csp
This case makes you wonder were all the feeding that is done with normal sugar ends up


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Chalk should clear up once it gets to summer, if it doesn't you can requeen the colony which may clear it up.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

msl said:


> This case makes you wonder were all the feeding that is done with normal sugar ends up


It ends up in you having more money with your artificial syrup honey. My former mentor fed the whole year to sell more honey, people never realized.




> I have seen many that agree with my view and a few that do open feed and say they have no issue. Lastly, Why feed all the neibors bees.


The same mentor hanged crystallized honey combs in the open at his fence to have the bees clean them. This is prohibited by law not to spread AFB.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

*Update:*
One week later, quick inspection to make sure things are going well. I especially wanted to be sure the package queen was accepted since I directly released her. All hives had plenty of nectar and there was pollen visible on returninG field bees.

The hive with chalkbrood is looking better, plenty of mummies on the bottom board, and I only saw one in the comb. 

The package comb is flush with nectar. So much so that I had trouble spotting brood. I did manage to find some larvae, I expected there would be more, but they seem to have put nectar in most of the comb.

The third hive is the one that started with a 5 frame nuc. It seems strongest. It has the most activity at the entrance and is the only hive to have really begun drawing new comb. Strangely, I noticed dead bees on the top of the hive, and two or three dead inside. One of the dead ones inside was much blacker in color than the rest. (Was a robbing successfully stopped?) Not sure what to make of that.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

MonkeyMcBean said:


> I plan to feed sugar as little as possible, this may mean a season or more without a honey crop. I'm fine with that.


Long as the nectar flow keeps going just give them enough room and you will be eating honey this season.

If you are going foundationless make sure to give them a ladder comb or two when you add boxes on top.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> One of the dead ones inside was much blacker in color than the rest.


Old, clammy... don´t fret. Just enjoy for now and give the package bees more room!


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

SiWolKe said:


> Old, clammy... don´t fret. Just enjoy for now and give the package bees more room!


They've got an entire empty box on their heads. Maybe I should have pyramided up all of the hives?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

in nature a new colony starts drawing comb at the top of the cavity and works its way down.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

MonkeyMcBean said:


> Maybe I should have pyramided up all of the hives?


No, they will chimney up part boxes. Add boxes when the last one is near full.


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## MonkeyMcBean (Mar 1, 2017)

Just got called out to my first swarm removal... In the rain.


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