# Bees only drawing frames in brood box



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

you have a queen excluder on?


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Jack - the bees may not need the room if there still working on frames in the bottom box - and ya need to answer JRG


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

JRG13 - No, I don't have an excluder on. I was planning on having some frames drawn out before putting one on my supers.

Sakhoney- The bottom box doesn't seem to be getting much love from the bees. Anytime I put a frame in the top box they would draw it out fairly quickly. I think there is only one frame left down in the bottom brood box that is half drawn out(It was a frame that I got with my nuc and it had some hard crusty cells which I scraped off in March). I did move some frames around the other day and moved all the frames from the bottom box that were not getting drawn out to the top box and moved fully drawn frames into the bottom box, keeping them in the order they were originally in; there were about 3 frames that were moved. 

Do you think if I get both brood boxes drawn out completely they'll move up to the supers? If that's the case I'll just move that one frame from the bottom up and move one down.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Again - they will build when room is needed - and they like to stay where they can cluster if its necessary. When they run out of room in the bottom 2 deeps they will do 1 of 2 things - they'll continue up into the 3rd super or they'll start backfilling the 2 deeps in preparation to swarm. You need lots of bees and a good source of feed to get foundation pulled. I have also see on those plastic frames where they will run up through the center 6 frames - then the honeyflow stops and that's all fokes. 
Now on your bottom box - what's in it - mostly capped brood? I have also seen bees only pull foundation in the brood box where the queen is laying - and not move back down with all capped brood. Sometime those plastic frames act as a queen dam. She will not cross it until its pulled. Anyway hope this helps. I have also heard of good results of sticking a very small piece of wax/burr come right in the center of the frame / right below the top bar and the bees taking off on that. May want to give it a try. A little wax off the top bars between the boxes should do


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

Sakshoney- Right now the bottom brood box has a few frames of brood, but I did notice more honey and pollen than in the top brood box. The top brood box has a lot of brood, more than normal I think? There is brood on the second through the ninth frame which makes me wonder if that is normal. From what I've been hearing it is usually the HHPBBBPHH, but this is my second year and I started in August last year so I don't know how it is supposed to look during this time of year. I've seen the Queen in the bottom brood box a few times when I've done full inspections and so I can confirm that she is laying down there.

So would it be a good idea to get the bees to partially draw out the frame from my bottom brood box or just leave it? If they only build when they need room, why is it that they're drawing out only the frames on top and not the bottom?

Also, I'll try that wax on the top bar idea. Currently I have 2 supers, one is a shallow and one is a medium. The shallow is foundationless with just a starter strip and the medium has plastic frames with one foundationless frame. Thanks for your help Sakshoney!


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

I would move frames of brood down to the lower super - maybe give them 1 frame of foundation
HPBBBBBBPH or HPBBBFBBPH with foundation
Keeping the brood together helps them keep it warm at night - also when you pull honey - brood is in the bottom. Also if your honeyflow keeps going and all those young bees hatch out - BOOM - they will be pulling a frame of foundation per day EZ


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

Sweet. I think that just about answered my questions and concerns. I'll move that half drawn frame from the bottom up and move a full frame of brood down. The Queen I have has been doing an amazing job at laying. She's a Kona Queen and her brood pattern has been amazing. This was an old picture from a week ago, right now most of the frames with brood look like this but are capped almost edge to edge.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

if that's the case - I would work those double deeps and install that medium on top of them - then if you dick around and don't keep a close enough eye on them - they have something to do (beside thanking about swarming) - I am guessing the shallow is for comb honey - After next week - I would install that one as well - looks like from the bees you are having a hell-o-a-honeyflow


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

Yeah, I'm trying to get some comb honey this year and will probably do some chunk honey jars for friends and family. I'll probably get into my hive tomorrow and see if they're climbing up into the medium at all. I'm assuming once they realize that the supers are there they'll start moving some of the nectar that is in the brood box up? I have noticed that they were filling some of the brood frames with a bit of nectar and that was my real concern, I don't want to deal with a back filled brood and swarm. I like my queen and I prefer to keep her as long as she's productive.


----------



## dtrooster (Apr 4, 2016)

Just a new guy thinking but couldn't you pull a brood frame out of the center of the top deep put on the super and put that deep frame back in the same slot. Fill out the rest of the super with the right sized frames. That one deep frame should pull some bees up into the super. Once they started drawing move the deep frame back down after cutting off the comb hanging off the bottom. Could even band that piece into a super frame


----------



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I would do what Sak says, consolidate all the brood in one box, the bottom, and go from there. If there's more than 10 frames, start in middle of the second box.


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

JRG13- Are you saying that I should move all the brood frames into the bottom box and just have the honey and pollen frames on top?


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

DT - when that double is ready - and with all those frames of brood - they will not need to be baited up - they'll run through that medium in a week with the kind of flow he has going on - weather permitting - You see all that brood he's showing? you don't get that by nothing going on - Bet those hives will be making 10 pounds of honey a day next week or two - there not brooding up that hard for nothing - Jack get you comb honey super ready


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

Alright, so here's my plan for today. I'm going to move all the brood frames I can from the top deep into my bottom deep. with the configuration: HPBBBFBBPH I also have a drone frame which I'll probably keep on top with a configuration of: HHHBBBDHHH and then have a medium super on top of that brood box. Can I use a Queen excluder once they start drawing the super out?

Does that seem right? Also, will the Queen feel like she is honey bound with this kind of manipulation? I'm trying to see how fast those supers will get drawn in filled. I might end up needing to buy more if this all works out.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

that will work - keep us up to date on how it turns out


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

Well, I've done the manipulation, it was kind of difficult because I had no clue where my smoker was...Also I've came across an issue here...See that cell that's kinda ripped open there? I think that's a supersedure cell or at least I think it's one....It wasn't capped so I peeled it back a bit and lo and behold there was an egg standing up with a bit of royal jelly....What am I to do now? Is it time to just do a split? I really don't want to lose this queen...


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

How many more did you find - and how are you setting on equipment - Got enough to make some splits?


----------



## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Either cut it out and watch for more, hope for the best,...Or grab a frame of capped brood, frame of honey and pollen, and maybe a partial drawn frame with lots of bees, find the queen and make a new nuc.


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

I looked and actually only found that one cell. My bees regularly build cups at the bottom of frames but nothing in them. I have a nuc that is currently housing 4 frames, I was planning on keeping a nuc just in case anything went wrong. I'm guessing there's no way out of this huh? I just saw my queen yesterday too...I guess the bees know best. Should I just let them do their thing?


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

Just went and did a real quick check and I did not see any other cells. I ripped the cell I saw off and I didn't see any egg in it anymore, could they have removed it after I opened it up? I'm going to just not mess with the brood boxes anymore for a while and just check the super, hopefully it'll be fine.


----------



## howlin (May 15, 2016)

portland gets colder faster than texas. is a small nuc still a good idea? asking for closer opinion.?
h.


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

Howlin-There are people here in Portland that have overwintered Nucs, it's just important to have feed. The weather here doesn't get too cold, we'll have a few cold days but the main issue is rain. I'll do some more reading on overwintering a nuc in my area, 


At this point if the bees want to re-queen, I might just let them. Bees know best after all. As of now my whole bottom brood box is filled with brood frames from frames 2 to 9. The top brood box has honey and pollen on frames 1-3 and 8-10 and brood on frames 4-7. I went outside this morning and I see that the bees are already climbing into the super, once they start drawing the frames I may put on my Queen excluder. We've had 90+ degree days all weekend so I've left the top cover off, I'll be putting the top cover back on after today since we have rain the rest of the week. I'm not too worried about going Queen-less with the amount of brood and eggs I have, I just hope the Queen will be as good as her mother.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Jack - there just not going to requeen - they will swarm - are you willing to loose 1/2 of your bees?


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

Sakhoney - If the cell is a supersedure cell, would they still swarm? I guess if that's the case I'll check again in a week and see if there are new Queen cells, if there are I'll do a walk away split.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

yes - they will still swarm - if its a supersedures they will run the old queen out and she'll take the bees with her - But - with all that brood in both boxes - I cannot believe its supersedure but them prepping to swarm. Again - what other equipment do you have so we can tell you how to fix this
If you are planning on splitting - I would plan on at least 2 or 3 more splits


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

Sakhoney- I have a few pieces of old equipment. I have an empty hive setup that can be used(2 deep brood boxes, bottom board, top cover, inner cover, old drawn frames, etc.) and I have a couple of nuc boxes.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

OK - next week - go in and see if you have any cells built - if not - just keep an eye on them - but if you start finding cells - plan to break them up - keep posting - there are several on here that can guide you if I don't respond as next week I'll be home from work checking my bees.


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

Sakhoney- Thanks. I'll keep an eye on the hive, I find it interesting that I've not seen any Queen cells until now even though my hive has been booming, but then again it is swarm season. If I end up having to do a split I might have to find a new place to put this other hive since my backyard can only accommodate so many hives (living in the city and all). Earliest I can check is next Friday because it's suppose to rain all week. I'll update once I've checked. Thanks for you help Sakhoney.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

IF for some reason you need to get me - just add at yahoo.com to my name - I check that daily
Also - if no room for more bees - make your splits and sell on craigslist - people hungry for bees right now at the right price


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

QUEEN CELLS, QUEEN CELLS EVERYWHERE! Well, I either rolled the Queen or I'm blind. I let my curiosity get the best of me and checked my hive today, and I found Queen cells everywhere. I checked and double checked every single frame I had and could not find the Queen at all. At this point I'm just going to let it be and wait to see if they will either swarm or if they just make a new Queen. If they do swarm I'll try to catch them, but I'm not banking on that since I can usually spot the Queen fairly easily and she's usually on frames with no eggs. Just a few questions:

Since I have tons of brood should I be worried about the bees or do you think they'll manage?

Is it a bit late in the season for the bees to raise a Queen since it'll take about a month before she's matured and laying?

Should I just buy a new Queen? Also, will introducing her with the Queen cells in the hive be an issue?

Should I use my Queen that is about to hatch from my nuc instead of letting my bees raise a new Queen?

So many questions!!! I'm kind of upset that I may have rolled the Queen. :\


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Break them up to 4 hives - this gives you a real good chance of at least 1 queen making it to laying - if you make 4 - 3 should make it - if you don't want the extra hives - sell them


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

Sakhoney- That's the plan, once they cap a few Queen cells I'm going to make two more nucs and hopefully get a good Queen out of one of them. Just a bummer that things didn't work out how I wanted them to.

So, no point I'm just buying a new Queen right?


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

no on buying queens - let them raise out the cells in the 2 nucs and parent hive - if your really lucky - all 3 will mate and come back to there spots/hives - Is the old queen still in the original hive? - If so grab her now and make a split in one of the nuc boxes before she swarms - cut down any cells moved with old queen. Give her 2 or 3 frames of capped brood and a frame of honey to get her started. And a good shake of bees.


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

The problem is that I could find her yesterday after doing a thorough inspection of the hive. I was a bit frantic while doing the inspection but she's pretty huge so I usually see her fairly easily. I guess my best bet to see if she is still around is to wait and see if I can see any eggs being laid...if I do I will make a split.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

She will not start laying again until after she swarms - weather you swarm her or she does it herself - Look again - and if you can find her and get her moved she may or may not stay. You could also clip her wings so she can't fly - but the bees will likely supersede her after a bit of time passes - Never had a clipped queen make it very long.
Also remember - every one of those cells you get mated - $25 bucks saved


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

Since I'm in Portland our nectar dearth pretty much starts in the middle of July and with basically no frames in the supers drawn out, I guess I shouldn't be expecting any honey this year? 

Would I have any issues with having a Queen mature so late in the season? They won't be mated until at least mid July from doing bee math, which is when our flow has basically ended.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

what's the weather like in mid July - I know my area - And I can raise nucs plum up to Sep. with no problems - Then feed and let them hit goldenrod to over winter. Your winter up there could come earlier than mine - and I'm sure it does - Do you know any local BKs - I would seek there advise.
But if I was faced with the same thing here I would bust that hive up as far as I could - Get all the queens raised that I could - then stack what didn't make it. Its a long row to hoe when no comb is in your hands and foundation is all you got. That's why every time I hear about the cut and squeeze method of honey production - I shiver.


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

Here in Portland it gets really hot from July through August and then there's a but of a cold snap in October. There will be nectar here and there but our main and only real flow is Blackberry from what I know.

I'm guessing that the bees probably won't draw any frames out while this is all happening? I bought plastic frames for the sole purpose of being able to just spin out the honey, I guess there's always next year. I'm probably going to do less inspections next year, I guess this is why being a Beekeeper is a lifetime lesson.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

If that's the case - and you bust them up as I suggest - be ready to feed. Again that's where a local BK could guide you - And you never know - you could have several small honey flows all summer long - I just can advise what's going on in my area
Good luck and happy BK ing


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

Spoke with a friend who has been a long time beekeeper, he said that since the flow is almost over it's best to try and keep the brood together. We usually need about 60-80 lbs of honey to winter a hive. It's okay to make one nuc with a few frames(2 brood frames, 3 honey/pollen frames) and just fill in the main hive with some drawn frames. With the amount of brood I have stretching across the bottom brood box the hive it should be fine as long as the Queen starts laying in July since the majority of the brood will be hatching this week or next week. I'd be happy if my hive makes it through winter, although I really wish that they would've drawn out some of those frames in the super. :\


Making a nuc would mean I'll have two opportunities for a mature and laying Queen, and since I currently have a emergency Nuc right now as well, I really have 3 potential Queens. The Queen in the nuc is about to hatch in less than a week, it was capped about 2 or 3 days ago. As of now I feel a bit defeated inch: so I'm going to just wait it out and check the hive again next Friday.


----------



## cervus (May 8, 2016)

I've been following your thread. I'm in a similar situation with one of my hives. If I split, I'll more than likely have to feed both this winter, depending on the fall flow. Do you have a good fall honey flow in the Portland area?


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Jack - I would not just let them swarm - and 1/2 the bees get lost - but there yours. Also you may loose more than 1/2 of the bees if they start casting after swarms.


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

Sakhoney - I'll need to figure out if the Queen is even still alive, I'll do another thorough inspection next Friday before I do the split. At this point though, I think I may have rolled her or something during the frame manipulation because prior to that I had seen her and no Queen cells were being made.

Cervus - We don't have a very strong flow during the fall, people usually start treating as soon as August comes around. I'm thinking that I may have to feed as well if they go through the honey that is currently stored.


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

There were a few frames like this one, with multiple cells drawn out. I guess they're swarm cells? I've set up a swarm trap just incase I'm not home and they swarm before I get a second chance to check them out.


----------



## appalachianoutdoors (May 16, 2015)

They just look like queen cups...cells they built in case they need to make an emergency queen cells. They do not look like your typically swarm cells and they are way up at the top of the frame. All of my hives have a few of those..I've never thought twice about them.


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Those are to long to be just cups


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

You're right Sakhoney, Queen cells for a fact. I assume swarm cells? Multiple ones just like this.


----------



## appalachianoutdoors (May 16, 2015)

1st pic posted still looks like cups, except maybe the bottom right one, 2nd pic posted, cells have been turned to queen cells. Splits ahead...


----------



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Appal - on page 1 yes a cup - on page 3 the photo above your post by 4 - cells - there to long for cups - those are at least a week old cells - cups I have seen are about 1/4 inch long - also see where they built 1 out of a cell from the frame? - they don't do that with cups - cups are on top of everything or stuck on the bottom bars of frames


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

Now my question is, does this mean the Queen is still alive? As you can see these are all towards the top of the frame, although I have some frames that have cells towards the bottom as well, either way they're all on the face of the frame not on the bottom bars. I guess my real question is are these swarm cells?


----------



## Jackasaur (Mar 30, 2016)

I can confirm that the Queen is no longer around. There hasn't been any new eggs in days and frames are no longer being drawn out even though we have a flow. They're simplying just packing everything with nectar. Sad day, but we will overcome.


----------



## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Jackasaur said:


> You're right Sakhoney, Queen cells for a fact. I assume swarm cells? Multiple ones just like this.
> 
> View attachment 25641


Jack - My read on that picture is top right QC has emerged. Top left QC as been chewed open, probably dead. Bottom two cells, one has not emerged and give you options for creating additional NUCs. The second one I cannot tell if it is open or not. Your original queen has likely already swarmed I would guess. But you now have virgin running around that hive so you need to give her two weeks to get bred and start laying hopefully. 

You can easily take a steak knife cut out around those two unopened queen cells and start an additional nuc with those. Or crush them and hope the virgin mates and returns. I strongly suggest the first idea, then if one fails to mate, you can combine the two back together. 

Good luck

PS - Looks like a worker on the uncapped cell is starting to chew on the side wall, not good, but they are taking care of business.


----------

