# Newby with Horizontal Hive Build



## Docsmaple

First time posting and after I started reading, thought maybe I should start beekeeping with the Langstroth hives then work into the Horizontal Hives. However, living in NE Minnesota where the we have had low temps > -30 without wind chill and talking to local beekeepers about poor overwintering rates (around 40%), I wanted to build an insulated hive based on a cross of the langstroth and Lazutin style hive except with insulation. The walls are made out of two 1/2" plywood sandwiching 2" of EPS insulation. The roof is covered by a sheet of FRP panel. I Built custom double deep frames langstroth width and depth to avoid the brood having to cross any potential barriers between stacked vertical frames in the winter. Also, I built the cover deep enough to accommodate 3 medium supers over top of the double deep brood frames in the event I want to run two colonies out of one hive. Additionally, I can use the space in the lid for moisture absorption and blankets/insulation in the winter. The hive holds 36 double deep frames equivalent to 72 langstroth deeps. I think extraction from a double deep frame will be difficult to impossible from those frames. Anyway, here are a few photos of the hive and a few questions I'm looking for answers for. Constructive criticism and advise are welcomed openly.

1) How do I transfer a nuc colony into the new hive? Do I just shake the bees into the new hive and lay the nuc box near the opening?

2) How do I get a nuc colony to build on the double deep frames and then remove the original single deeps from the purchased nuc eventually?

3) Is there any way to extract honey from the double deep frames without ruining the comb?

4) What pitfalls do you see in the design of the hive?

Thanks for the input.

Chad


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## MattDavey

1. Just remove the Double Deep frames and put in the Deep frames from the Nuc.

2. The bees will just expand sideways into the Double Deeps.

3. Crush and Strain. Can just cut off bottom half of frame.

4. Double Deep frames will be very heavy when filled with honey. You would be best to run 3 Colonies in the hive. You only need 10 Double Deeps (equivalent to 20 Deep frames) per Colony. So you could partition it into 3 sections with 2 well fitting follower boards.
(I just used standard Deep frames will my 3 x Long Hive.)


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## nickhefferan

Welcome to BeeSource Docsmaple!
The hive looks great!

answering out of order:

4) my one concern with the design is the distance between frame and sides, and top of the frame and the wooden cover. Do you have the 3/8" beespace there, or is it bigger/smaller? 
you also can also use a cover cloth above the top bars if the distance is smaller or larger than a beespace between the top bars and the hard cover. 
You definitely want to keep a beespace if there are any gaps, otherwise you'll be fighting against burr comb and propolis.
(if you don't know what beespace is: http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/bsp.html )

1)I would say put the frames in the hive and let them build into the double-deep frames over time. you can either hang a partial frame (sans "ears") onto the bottoms of the existing nuc-frames with zip ties.
Or just stick 'em in there as is and rotate out the standard frames after the brood is moved onto the double-deep frames. I wouldn't shake them out, just use the frames in one way or the other.

2) to get them to build on the double deep frames, stick them in between the deep frames "checkerboarding" and move the standard deep frames out of the brood nest over time, eventually removing them totally.

3) not sure on extraction, that isn't my wheelhouse. GregV's method of sideways mounting the deep frames could work well, you don't end up with big pieces of wood they need to vertically traverse in winter, and then you can break the frames in half to extract them.

hope that helps!

-Nick


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## GregB

Wow!
Great work and thanks for sharing.
I need to study your pics.
I am really liking this latest trend of people hanging up the various horizontal designs live.
Great exchange.
I can just see it - beekeeping Renaissance is actually happening.

Docsmaple - please do share your approximate location in your profile; this makes a huge contextual difference.
Yes - I see you are in MN, just it gets forgotten later.


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## little_john

Hi Chad,

For a first build I think this is extremely good - in particular your decision to use sandwiched insulation is very wise.

Thoughts - in no particular order ...

You've created a hive with a huge volume, and so I'd recommend you make a moveable partition board (often called a 'follower' board - although I've never figured out why) in order that you can initially reduce the volume whilst the colony is relatively small.

Double-deep honey combs will indeed be very heavy, and so at minimum you may need to use a s/s 'frame-grabber' (or whatever they're called) to lift them out. Finger-tips have their limits !

Another approach would be to use single deep frames in the honey area, with a lugless dummy deep frame tie-wrapped underneath. I use this technique to mix different depth frames in the same hive, to prevent wild comb being wastefully drawn under the shallower ones. It works well. I'll post pics if needed.

Removing single deeps after the doubles have been laid-up ? Two ways of doing this:
If you have one or more combs filled with nectar/honey - pull the single deep brood, ensure the queen isn't on it, then place that frame behind those honey combs.

The second method (which I prefer) is to use that moveable partition board. If it's made close-fitting at the top and sides, but with a 2"-3" gap at the bottom, it will still act as a 'thermal curtain' and any combs you wish to be cleared can simply be placed behind it. Leave the bees on, but again, ensure the queen isn't riding that comb. Indeed - such a board is very useful, as the queen will never cross over it, and so such boards will function as a very effective queen excluder.

I find myself agreeing with Greg again - it's really good to see enthusiasm for such new Hive Designs ...

Two queries - what's your thinking behind having so many entrances to this hive ... and, what's the purpose of the two shelf brackets on the hive front ? Just curious - not being critical. 
LJ


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## GregB

little_john said:


> .... it's really good to see enthusiasm for such new Hive Designs ...
> 
> LJ


LJ, I think this forum reformation thing is working for the better.
In a short order people started coming out of woodwork with some neat projects.
Now I got some itch!

Been thinking to do a trial on Lazutin-sized frame too.
But too many trials lined up - unsure can do it all. 
Wife will move me out to the garage.

I too have few comments to do - but need to get the head wrapped around it just yet.


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## GregB

little_john said:


> Two queries - what's your thinking behind having so many entrances to this hive ... and, what's the purpose of the two shelf brackets on the hive front ? Just curious - not being critical.
> LJ


The brackets are easy - to support the roof when you swing it open up (can be heavy and must be secure; also wind may push it).

The entrances (let me only guess) - influence of the "Vladimirsky" hive (Lazutin variant)? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LslJJ8FfehU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzFLX_7NNrg&t=9s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy_gS8rdKVo

Those are handy for multi-colony usage in the same body (splits and nucs).
Also handy for wintering moves (just open the entrance where colony ends up for the winter; close the others).


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## GaryG74

Welcome to Bee Source. 

The bees will probably build off the bottom of the regular deep frames, to match the depth of your double deep frames, so you may not have to rotate them out (regular deep frames). I've had swarms do that when they were in extra deep swam traps and it took me a while to take the traps down and bring them home. I put them into two deep boxes. When I moved the swarms to regular hives, I removed frames from the bottom of the two deeps, then put the "extended" frames with the comb off the bottoms in the top deep with no frames beneath them. Later I cut the extra comb off the bottoms and put it into regular frames with rubber bands.

The point being, you would have to be careful manipulating the frames with the extra comb off the bottom, but you might not have to be in a rush to change the nuc, regular deep frames, out of your hive.

Nice looking hive too.


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## ny12569

Your hive is very impressive and got me thinking about a horizontal resource hive . Great design awesome build


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## GregB

Docsmaple said:


> 1) How do I transfer a nuc colony into the new hive? Do I just shake the bees into the new hive and lay the nuc box near the opening?
> 
> 2) How do I get a nuc colony to build on the double deep frames and then remove the original single deeps from the purchased nuc eventually?
> 
> 3) Is there any way to extract honey from the double deep frames without ruining the comb?
> 
> 4) What pitfalls do you see in the design of the hive?
> 
> Thanks for the input.
> 
> Chad


1) As others have said - just directly put in the nuc frames as-is (use that Lang compatibility you just built-in). What I would do - I would zip additional blank Lang frames - just hanging under. Bees will eventually build the hanging blanks IF done correctly (should keep them compressed).
Dump the remaining bees right into the hive. Set the nuc box *inside* in the opposite end and call it a day - the straggles will just move to the frames at their own pace. Retrieve the nuc box later at your convenience. 

Again - take advantage of such huge volume you just created. 
That is what you mean by building a Lazutin hive - you got space - use it.

2) If you hang additional frames by zips - they will get utilized - here you go - you have make-shift Lasutin frames.
Be sure to keep follower boards to keep the bees reduced and not letting them grow sideways - eventually they will build down.
You can use the dummy board hangers if the weather is still cold (per LJ's advice); but if you install the nuc in warm enough weather - just save yourself extra hassle and do the blank frames at once. The follower boards/some insulation on top should suffice. 

3) Extraction is a custom project in such setup. You can still try supering. It will be very hard to have them go up into a honey super if you try (I have the same issue - they just would not go up - because they have no need). One idea is this - in the honey section use doubled-Lang frames connected for easy separation - you can easily split them apart and extract. OR use triple medium Langs - zip them up. The same idea.

As for me - am not concerned much with extraction of my large frames - they are brood and resources only use. I will cut and strain them as a way to rotate out the older/poor combs - have to do it anyway. Also I harvest perga out of the brood frames - again, comb is destroyed. 

Being custom is a minus in the extraction department - hence I insist on Lang compatibility of my equipment - why more hassles?

4) Heavy and bulky. But if no need to move - a perfect rig. If space not an issue - have a row of these and enjoy.
I would think through how to move it if really have to - without injuring yourself. Should be convenient way to two people.
Holding it by one hand on the each end is a poor idea and a way to injure yourself (like a chest by the swinging side handles - better than nothing - but poor ergo).
I do these instead:








Extras:
- keep in mind with this you will likely only harvest the end of the season honey - how peasants would do it (bad or good - what it is)
- you can easily keep very, very feisty bees as you hardly need to get in - a winner hands down in my book (mite resistance often comes along with defensiveness - so need to deal with them)
- this will make a great resource hive as any long hive (but must be sure to handle the compatibility somehow - moving Lang/Dadants frames in and out)
- keeping nucs in these does *not *even require divider boards; you just keep them separated by empty space - 1-2 feet apart works fine. Use follower boards and drop some freely overhanging burlap/fabric to keep them kind of contained. They mind their own business and do not cross over for as long as they are small. Handily, you already have multiple-entrances - a perfect setup for a multi-unit.

Here are useful links (non-English - but those who see, will see plenty of useful detail):
https://apidomiki.ru/vladimirskiie_uli
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC34H0XfatTNbJl4fL3WOHtg


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## GregB

Here is a mega Lazutin hive.
You can see how the guy does not even need divider boards.
Just some fabric thrown on top of the frames - that is basically the colony envelope.
Her is talking about running three units in this mega box - his main point - it takes a single hive to run entire yard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HuWPUm3pss&index=13&list=PLro7GiFB_2Grku1s2vfbJ6pssII438mi7


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## Docsmaple

Thanks to all who commented. It is much appreciated. There is a lot of information that i've garnered from the comments. Thank you all.

Multiple people have commented on using zip ties and combining two langstroth deeps with the ears cut off the bottom frame. I have yet to see an extractor, but hope someday to grow to the size to need one. Does a radial extractor require the frame to have ears?

nickhefferean


> 4) my one concern with the design is the distance between frame and sides, and top of the frame and the wooden cover. Do you have the 3/8" beespace there, or is it bigger/smaller?


I do have bee space all around the frames, including the top where there are pieces of plywood. The idea is that the cover can be opened but the entire hive is not disturbed and depending on whether there are multiple hives in the box, I can pull a particular plywood "lid" off and work just in that area without causing problems for the entire hive.

LJ


> Removing single deeps after the doubles have been laid-up ? Two ways of doing this:
> If you have one or more combs filled with nectar/honey - pull the single deep brood, ensure the queen isn't on it, then place that frame behind those honey combs.
> 
> The second method (which I prefer) is to use that moveable partition board. If it's made close-fitting at the top and sides, but with a 2"-3" gap at the bottom, it will still act as a 'thermal curtain' and any combs you wish to be cleared can simply be placed behind it. Leave the bees on, but again, ensure the queen isn't riding that comb. Indeed - such a board is very useful, as the queen will never cross over it, and so such boards will function as a very effective queen excluder.


I really like these ideas and use of the follower/divider boards. I do have a few boards made up that fit completely tight on four sides to allow for multiple colonies in the hive but also with follower boards that are short on the bottom. I read somewhere that hives are less likely to swarm if they can see under the follower board and realize there is a larger area to build as the year progresses if I don't expand the brood area quickly enough.

As far as all the entrances, it gives me options for over wintering multiple colonies, air exchange, etc.

The angle brackets on the corner are to hold the roof. It is over centered and quite heavy, hence the piano hinge for the roof.

GregV


> The entrances (let me only guess) - influence of the "Vladimirsky" hive (Lazutin variant)?


I wish I knew who Vladimirsky was at the time of the build. I put them in the hive box for options moving forward. I thought this might be able to hold multiple hives and was hoping not to be limited by my lack of forethought when building.



> Extras:
> - keep in mind with this you will likely only harvest the end of the season honey - how peasants would do it (bad or good - what it is)


I'm hoping to be minimally invasive as I learn how to have bees and understand them. I do have a standard Langstroth frame and these are actually an experiment on over wintering with some forethought as to uses of the hive box moving forward.


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## Docsmaple

If I cut the ears off a deep and then use a regular langstroth deep with the second deep with the ears cut off and zip tied below it, will the bottom "earless" deep work in a radial extractor?


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## GregB

Docsmaple said:


> If I cut the ears off a deep and then use a regular langstroth deep with the second deep with the ears cut off and zip tied below it, will the bottom "earless" deep work in a radial extractor?


From what I understand - why not?


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## Docsmaple

LJ


> Another approach would be to use single deep frames in the honey area, with a lugless dummy deep frame tie-wrapped underneath. I use this technique to mix different depth frames in the same hive, to prevent wild comb being wastefully drawn under the shallower ones. It works well. I'll post pics if needed.


Would you post some pics please. Thank you

Chad


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## little_john

Hi Chad

Ok - firstly - this is the reason 'why':

 

This wasteful use of effort (boxes of the stuff !) comes about because I run two different frame depths here: one 8.5" (deep), the other 12" (extra-deep). I also have around thirty 5.5" (shallow) frames which are sometimes used in an emergency - so - I eventually got fed up with this situation and came up with the following ...

This is a part completed prototype using - as you can see - a frame with thin plywood sides. 

 

... and in use:



It's a very good method for making deep 'dummies', but for a working batch of 3" dummies, I decided instead to make them from solid wood, somewhere around 22 - 25mm thick. This is a shot of one, cable-tied beneath a deep frame, next to an extra-deep for comparison:



The thinner (2mm ?) cable-ties used there are far more suitable for this job than the standard-sized ties shown in the previous photograph.

And this is the rig I use to fit them:



.. which consists of a tall(ish) frame rest, onto which the target frame is hung while a block is tie-wrapped beneath it. Bees can stay on the frame if needs be, and the tying operation takes around 20-30 seconds.

BTW, I only fit these extender blocks if a frame is going to stay in place semi-permanently - say, several months - for a few days only, I don't bother.
'best,
LJ


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## GregB

little_john said:


> Hi Chad
> 
> Ok - firstly - this is the reason 'why':
> 
> 
> 
> This wasteful use of effort (boxes of the stuff !) ..........
> LJ


LJ, that box of "stuff" is a treasure trove!
I imagine some starting swarm chasers will pay money for it.
When I had nothing and was trying to catch my first bees, I was *begging *people for old combs.
Wasted entire season with zero hits on my traps.
A full box of old combs - I really, really needed that at the moment.

Also, I totally see how I would plug those pieces into my empty frames for a honey harvest time.

SO: generating extra comb in itself is not something to sneeze at (however junky it may look to some eyes);
just coming at it from my angle of a swarm hunter and natural comb keeper.


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## Docsmaple

LJ

Thank you for the photos! It helps explain things for me.


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## Docsmaple

My bees will be coming within the next week or two but I was wondering if I put 2 or 3 nucs into the horizontal hive and have separation boards between them, do the separation boards need to fit tightly (i.e. Top, bottom, and sides) into the hive or can I leave a 1.5" space on the bottom? I thought I read somewhere on the forum that a queen won't go under the divider board. ????


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## GregB

Docsmaple said:


> My bees will be coming within the next week or two but I was wondering if I put 2 or 3 nucs into the horizontal hive and have separation boards between them, do the separation boards need to fit tightly (i.e. Top, bottom, and sides) into the hive or can I leave a 1.5" space on the bottom? I thought I read somewhere on the forum that a queen won't go under the divider board. ????


You will want your division boards (not the follower boards) fitting tight.
Else risk loosing a queen or two.


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## little_john

Agree 100% - the 1.5" space beneath a follower/partition board is only recommended for a single queen colony, a) when you want to reduce the size of an occupied area within a large hive, or b) when it's being used as a means of preventing a queen from accessing and laying in honey combs.

It would never keep two queens from meeting-up and fighting - for that you need guaranteed bee-tight partition boards. 
LJ


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## Yunzow

Hi, Doc,

super nice hive build btw.

I installed two nucs into a similar situation, but I can see that I will run into some of the issues mentioned by other posts on this thread.

I apologize everyone for not being quite ready for prime time, meaning I have no pics to post right now, but I will try to remedy that later today.

I built two boxes which were 19.5" by 19.5" by 22". On April 27th, in each box I placed frames from a langstroth nuc, with custom made double-deep "top-bar" style frames filling out the rest of the hive. The custom frames have a top-bar of 19.5 inches, and with a frame of roughly 17" by 17" glued to it. Those posters with experience will realize that this is not as simple as it sounds and requires some modifications, which for me included adding "lips" to the top of the box that were flush with the "top-bar" frames, but this meant the langstroth frames were "gapped" and the top bars were not. My work around for the gaps was extremely messy so I'm not even going to bother to mention it.

My double-deep frames are foundation-less. I was very pleased yesterday to see that at least one of the hives the ladies are very enthusiastically building comb on the double-deep frame.

Hope to have some pictures to share soon.

-Thomas




Docsmaple said:


> First time posting and after I started reading, thought maybe I should start beekeeping with the Langstroth hives then work into the Horizontal Hives. However, living in NE Minnesota where the we have had low temps > -30 without wind chill and talking to local beekeepers about poor overwintering rates (around 40%), I wanted to build an insulated hive based on a cross of the langstroth and Lazutin style hive except with insulation. The walls are made out of two 1/2" plywood sandwiching 2" of EPS insulation. The roof is covered by a sheet of FRP panel. I Built custom double deep frames langstroth width and depth to avoid the brood having to cross any potential barriers between stacked vertical frames in the winter. Also, I built the cover deep enough to accommodate 3 medium supers over top of the double deep brood frames in the event I want to run two colonies out of one hive. Additionally, I can use the space in the lid for moisture absorption and blankets/insulation in the winter. The hive holds 36 double deep frames equivalent to 72 langstroth deeps. I think extraction from a double deep frame will be difficult to impossible from those frames. Anyway, here are a few photos of the hive and a few questions I'm looking for answers for. Constructive criticism and advise are welcomed openly.
> 
> 1) How do I transfer a nuc colony into the new hive? Do I just shake the bees into the new hive and lay the nuc box near the opening?
> 
> 2) How do I get a nuc colony to build on the double deep frames and then remove the original single deeps from the purchased nuc eventually?
> 
> 3) Is there any way to extract honey from the double deep frames without ruining the comb?
> 
> 4) What pitfalls do you see in the design of the hive?
> 
> Thanks for the input.
> 
> Chad
> 
> View attachment 46303
> View attachment 46313
> View attachment 46315
> View attachment 46317


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## Docsmaple

Thanks for the information Greg adn LJ. Much appreciated!


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## little_john

little_john said:


> Agree 100% - the 1.5" space beneath a follower/partition board is only recommended for a single queen colony, a) when you want to reduce the size of an occupied area within a large hive, or b) when it's being used as a means of preventing a queen from accessing and laying in honey combs.
> 
> It would never keep two queens from meeting-up and fighting - for that you need guaranteed bee-tight partition boards.
> LJ


Just to expand on this a little - for the benefit of anyone who's unsure about how solid-board Queen Excluders work ...

The normal job of a Queen is to lay eggs - and so she spends her time wandering around the combs looking for fresh places to lay. If on her travels she should come across an area of solid wood, at first she may see this as some kind of token barrier and begin to cross it, but if after an inch or so she hasn't found a fresh area of wax comb in which to lay, then she'll retreat back onto existing combs and continue her search for empty cells there. That's how the solid-board Queen Excluders are thought to work.

But - if she should detect the presence of a rival queen, then the 'red mist' descends, all thoughts of egg-laying are completely forgotten, and the only thing on her mind then is to seek out that rival queen and kill her. Under such circumstances, nothing short of a complete and effective physical barrier will prevent the queens from meeting-up and attacking each other.
LJ


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## GregB

Let me expand on this a bit too.

IF the hive body is really big AND the nuc units are set at the opposing ends of the body AND there is enough space between the two - no mandatory need for the tight fitting boards.
The "enough space" is probably at least a foot or better to effectively create clear open space between the colonies.
Queen is not likely then to run across this open space into a remote hive so to break into it. 
Just need to establish that clear and physical separation between the colonies.

I see people doing these nucs in large Lazutin hives and don't sweat about it. 
They toss some burlap over the frames and call it done - no boards are used at all.
Gotta have lots of space though.

For most cases, have to have tight boards to separate still.


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## ursa_minor

GregV said:


> 1) As others have said - just directly put in the nuc frames as-is (use that Lang compatibility you just built-in). What I would do - I would zip additional blank Lang frames - just hanging under. Bees will eventually build the hanging blanks IF done correctly (should keep them compressed).
> Dump the remaining bees right into the hive. Set the nuc box *inside* in the opposite end and call it a day - the straggles will just move to the frames at their own pace. Retrieve the nuc box later at your convenience.
> 
> Again - take advantage of such huge volume you just created.
> That is what you mean by building a Lazutin hive - you got space - use it.
> 
> 2) If you hang additional frames by zips - they will get utilized - here you go - you have make-shift Lasutin frames.
> Be sure to keep follower boards to keep the bees reduced and not letting them grow sideways - eventually they will build down.
> You can use the dummy board hangers if the weather is still cold (per LJ's advice); but if you install the nuc in warm enough weather - just save yourself extra hassle and do the blank frames at once. The follower boards/some insulation on top should suffice.
> 
> 3) Extraction is a custom project in such setup. You can still try supering. It will be very hard to have them go up into a honey super if you try (I have the same issue - they just would not go up - because they have no need). One idea is this - in the honey section use doubled-Lang frames connected for easy separation - you can easily split them apart and extract. OR use triple medium Langs - zip them up. The same idea.
> 
> As for me - am not concerned much with extraction of my large frames - they are brood and resources only use. I will cut and strain them as a way to rotate out the older/poor combs - have to do it anyway. Also I harvest perga out of the brood frames - again, comb is destroyed.
> 
> Being custom is a minus in the extraction department - hence I insist on Lang compatibility of my equipment - why more hassles?
> 
> 4) Heavy and bulky. But if no need to move - a perfect rig. If space not an issue - have a row of these and enjoy.
> I would think through how to move it if really have to - without injuring yourself. Should be convenient way to two people.
> Holding it by one hand on the each end is a poor idea and a way to injure yourself (like a chest by the swinging side handles - better than nothing - but poor ergo).
> I do these instead:
> View attachment 46349
> 
> 
> Extras:
> - keep in mind with this you will likely only harvest the end of the season honey - how peasants would do it (bad or good - what it is)
> - you can easily keep very, very feisty bees as you hardly need to get in - a winner hands down in my book (mite resistance often comes along with defensiveness - so need to deal with them)
> - this will make a great resource hive as any long hive (but must be sure to handle the compatibility somehow - moving Lang/Dadants frames in and out)
> - keeping nucs in these does *not *even require divider boards; you just keep them separated by empty space - 1-2 feet apart works fine. Use follower boards and drop some freely overhanging burlap/fabric to keep them kind of contained. They mind their own business and do not cross over for as long as they are small. Handily, you already have multiple-entrances - a perfect setup for a multi-unit.
> 
> Here are useful links (non-English - but those who see, will see plenty of useful detail):
> https://apidomiki.ru/vladimirskiie_uli
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC34H0XfatTNbJl4fL3WOHtg


I am also transferring a nuc into a deep horizontal hive so when you say 'set the nuc box in the other end and retrieve it later' do I put a follower board between the box and the frames and let the straggler bees go under the board or do I leave everything just open. 

I have read that the empty space behind the follower board is supposed to be filled with frames or the bees will build on the upper cover in a possibly willy nilly fashion. I have watched some of those Russian videos and in one it looked like they just let the bees go under the board and out another entrance if they liked. They did not seem concerned that there were a few bees in the empty frames space. 

I am thinking of making those dummy frames that Dr. Sharashkin suggested to transfer the langstroth to layens deep, or could I just set the frames at the back of the new hive, leaning up against one another, until they build on the new, or do I need them to be hanging.


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## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> I am also transferring a nuc into a deep horizontal hive so when you say 'set the nuc box in the other end and retrieve it later' do I put a follower board between the box and the frames and let the straggler bees go under the board or do I leave everything just open.


Not exactly critical as long as you manage to de-mark line for the bees where the "inside" of the nest and the "outside" of the nest are separated.
They will want to move from "outside" to "inside".
Just a clear physical separation does the same demarcation.

Since I have many follower boards laying around, I would use a board myself - so to emphasize to the straggler bees that they are "outside" of the nest and need to get "inside".
You can hang some fabric over to act like a "follower board" as well.




ursa_minor said:


> I am thinking of making those dummy frames that Dr. Sharashkin suggested to transfer the langstroth to layens deep, or could I just set the frames at the back of the new hive, leaning up against one another, until they build on the new, or do I need them to be hanging.


Save yourself some hassle and don't bother building anything.
Just stand them up right and call it a day.
No need to hang up anything.
The free standing frames should be the furthest from the entrance and the bees will gradually move away from them.
Like so (a pair of Lang frames freely standing in a long hive).








"The better is enemy of the good" - no need for continuous improvements as there is no end to it.


----------



## ursa_minor

This is so helpful, thank you. 
With a 5 frame nuc that will include 3 frames of bees and brood, 1 of empty brood and 1 of honey. Should I include the honey and empty brood and put it at the very back or should I save them for later, and feed the bees with sugar syrup.


----------



## Gray Goose

ursa_minor said:


> This is so helpful, thank you.
> With a 5 frame nuc that will include 3 frames of bees and brood, 1 of empty brood and 1 of honey. Should I include the honey and empty brood and put it at the very back or should I save them for later, and feed the bees with sugar syrup.


if the frames are the same length why not make a box cardboard wax coated, may even work,, but with 3/8 plywood if you have it, that fills the area under the 5 frame NUC. Set the box against the end, in the bottom, set the NUC in, honey against the end wall last frame is brood edge, then the new Deep frames, let them expand into the deep hive. Leave the NUC and box there till spring, they will likely shift toward the center, likely you could remove it in the spring. If it is full of bees and has brood, well then pull the NUC out, bees and all put it in a NUC box add a Queen Cell and start another hive, slide the frames over 5 slots add some empty ones in the spring. One advantage of using the same length frames. Just need a space consuming box. If you have a chainsaw, get a block of fire wood cut it 8 X 9 1/2 by the length. If you have some styrofoam, cut some chunks till the space is filled, leave the 3/8 to 1/2 under the NUC frames. Let them grow into the deep hive using the resources of the NUC.

Feed until the dandelions bloom. then I would think you are fine.

GG


----------



## ursa_minor

Gray Goose said:


> if the frames are the same length why not make a box cardboard wax coated, may even work,, but with 3/8 plywood if you have it, that fills the area under the 5 frame NUC. Set the box against the end, in the bottom, set the NUC in, honey against the end wall last frame is brood edge, then the new Deep frames, let them expand into the deep hive. Leave the NUC and box there till spring, they will likely shift toward the center, likely you could remove it in the spring. If it is full of bees and has brood, well then pull the NUC out, bees and all put it in a NUC box add a Queen Cell and start another hive, slide the frames over 5 slots add some empty ones in the spring. One advantage of using the same length frames. Just need a space consuming box. If you have a chainsaw, get a block of fire wood cut it 8 X 9 1/2 by the length. If you have some styrofoam, cut some chunks till the space is filled, leave the 3/8 to 1/2 under the NUC frames. Let them grow into the deep hive using the resources of the NUC.
> 
> Feed until the dandelions bloom. then I would think you are fine.
> 
> GG


Thank you, I built a layens hive so my frames are not the same length. 

I smiled reading your post, your confidence in my beekeeping abilities far out strip mine. I am not even sure if I can get these bees thru their first winter, let alone being able to do a split.


----------



## Gray Goose

ursa_minor said:


> Thank you, I built a layens hive so my frames are not the same length.
> 
> I smiled reading your post, your confidence in my beekeeping abilities far out strip mine. I am not even sure if I can get these bees thru their first winter, let alone being able to do a split.


ursa
ha,, you will not know till you try. Every one has their first year.. Mine sucked..
So I presume the Layens is shorter than the Lang Else one could fasten a temp top bar to the Lang. I am not sure Ignorant there.

Did you make your Layens hive? I ask because one could make a converter hive, 5 lang on one end and 7 layens on the other, entrance on the layen end. and still do the deed I described.

I guess then my too late advice would be get a package not a NUC, Can you call up the place you get a NUC from and ask if they could sell you a shook swarm? Or take a DR Leo NUC box over to him and he starts a "NUC" in it for you? With all new stuff there is not the concern of disease for him/ her

So you are basically buying apples to fit into an egg carton, size challenge.
The advantage of a NUC is it is a mini coloney, if it will not fit then the advantage is somewhat mitigated.

I think the less hassle way out is a package. there was a pic in the dr leo book about a frame holder that held the frame 90 degree rotated, that could be an option.

Good luck, share the trail you use others are likely in the same boat.

have a look at this http://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/convert-langstroth-layens.shtml

GG


----------



## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> Thank you, *I built a layens hive so my frames are not the same length. *
> 
> I smiled reading your post, your confidence in my beekeeping abilities far out strip mine. I am not even sure if I can get these bees thru their first winter, let alone being able to do a split.


Sorry ursa.

I have been publicly preaching on BS since I started here - ditch that Layens frame size and do the Ukrainian frame instead.
You'd be compatible with the Langs and be very happy in so many ways because the Ukrainian frame is nearly identical to doubled Lang frames.


























This is my biggest gripe against Dr. Sharashkin - creating so many headaches for people, needlessly - all those made-up problems with conversions from Langs - completely unnecessary. All he had to say - just make your frames match the Langs and be done.


----------



## Gray Goose

GregV said:


> Sorry ursa.
> 
> I have been publicly preaching on BS since I started here - ditch that Layens frame size and do the Ukrainian frame instead.
> You'd be compatible with the Langs and be very happy in so many ways because the Ukrainian frame is nearly identical to doubled Lang frames.
> View attachment 55533
> View attachment 55535
> View attachment 55537
> View attachment 55539
> 
> 
> This is my biggest gripe against Dr. Sharashkin - creating so many headaches for people, needlessly - all those made-up problems with conversions from Langs - completely unnecessary. All he had to say - just make your frames match the Langs and be done.


Greg,

But then why would someone buy his wax and custom frames. IMO he created a market and now intends to sell to it.

Hey we should make a custom size and then be the only place to order frames and wax, NUCs from........

really many sizes would work,, why compete with 20 other folks in the Lang market.
Apparently Layens is popular over in Europe. he is leveraging that work in a US market. Interesting angle.



GG


----------



## ursa_minor

When I pick up my nuc I am going to ask if he is willing to do a shook (shaken?) swarm next spring. 

I have a shed in which swarms have set up shop on and off for the last 15 years. I am also setting up swarm traps to try and get some of these. Those that came last summer survived until about two weeks ago. I believe there is not enough food storage ability in the wall to sustain them over the spring. 

I have spent many wonderful winter hours making frames and my hives, this is just another challenge I will need to figure out and I certainly will share my experiences, good or bad.

I am hoping that once I get going and have at least 3 hives my problems will decrease and I can do my own splits.


----------



## GregB

Gray Goose said:


> Greg,
> 
> *But then why would someone buy his wax and custom frames. IMO he created a market and now intends to sell to it.*
> 
> Hey we should make a custom size and then be the only place to order frames and wax, NUCs from........
> 
> really many sizes would work,, why compete with 20 other folks in the Lang market.
> Apparently Layens is popular over in Europe. he is leveraging that work in a US market. Interesting angle.
> 
> 
> 
> GG


Exactly.
For $$$$$!
And with the promise of some magic too.


GG, 
I actually think the idea of Lang-compatibility never occurred to him.
Seriously.
I like the guy in many ways, but he is also is kinda ..... "blind"??? to such obvious things.

Speaking of the custom frames and hive - I have exactly the idea to implement.

But of course, I will be like L. Sharashkin and will put up all the information online for free.
But unlike him, the thing WILL be Lang compatible. 
No need to inject subtle and yet obvious complications.


----------



## Absinthe

GregV said:


> Sorry ursa.
> 
> I have been publicly preaching on BS since I started here - ditch that Layens frame size and do the Ukrainian frame instead.
> You'd be compatible with the Langs and be very happy in so many ways because the Ukrainian frame is nearly identical to doubled Lang frames.
> View attachment 55533
> View attachment 55535
> View attachment 55537
> View attachment 55539
> 
> 
> This is my biggest gripe against Dr. Sharashkin - creating so many headaches for people, needlessly - all those made-up problems with conversions from Langs - completely unnecessary. All he had to say - just make your frames match the Langs and be done.


When you say Ukrainian is that the same thing as the Lazutin? What `Fedor Lazutin' describes as "Horizontal Hive with Extra Deep Frames" in "Keeping Bees with a Smile"? (And with the plans on Dr Leo's website? called Lazutin?) This was kind of an initial question I had, since he pushes that Smile book, and all through the book Fedor is describing what he is doing, all of which involved presumably that hive. Then out the other side of Dr Leo's mouth is hey, this Layens stuff is the "Cat's Pajamas!". Might that be because he is an editor on GgL's translated public domain book, as well, or simply because the techniques in it apply to horizontal beekeeping, regardless of the specific width and depth of the frame? Or is there, (and I am presuming, that your answer is **NO** some environmental, regional, zone based reason that there is a benefit to the narrower than Langstroth, aspect ratio of the Layen's measurements?)


----------



## GregB

Absinthe said:


> When you say Ukrainian is that the same thing as the Lazutin? .....


No.
I wrote extensively on the subject in the "Top Bar and Horizontal hive" sub-forum already.
Please search and read on.

About:


> ....reason that there is a benefit to the narrower than Langstroth, aspect ratio of the Layen's measurements?


Even the Father Langstroth himself in later life felt that the 12 inch wide frame is a better frame.
But it was too late to change the frame already in the production.

In fact, *little_john* very recently brought this up in one of the talks.


> I have uncovered evidence that later in his life Langstroth was considering changing towards a narrower and deeper format, but by that time the size that we see today had become firmly established. I've also found anecdotal evidence that around 1858 he supplied hives with frames strung across the short dimension of what has become known as his 10-frame brood box - those frames were known as 'short Langstroth frames', and had dimensions of 12 1/4 inches long by 10 1/2 inches deep. So 12 inches or thereabouts just keeps reappearing as a hive dimension - being also the size of the classic 12x12x12 American (pre-Langstroth) Box Hive, as well as the Warre.


From:
https://www.beesource.com/forums/sh...-Langstroth-Warre-combo&highlight=little_john

Overall, the 12 inch (300mm) wide frame is more ergonomic for both the bee and the beekeeper.
Just as we speak, compact vertical hives of 300x300 box configuration are quickly becoming popular in Russia and Ukraine.
I too posted lots of resources on that subject.

Incidentally, both Layens and the Ukrainan frame are ~12 inch (~300mm) wide frames - they are nominally identical in this particular dimension to what Farther Langstroth was ultimately proposing.


----------



## Absinthe

GregV said:


> I have been publicly preaching on BS since I started here - ditch that Layens frame size and do the Ukrainian frame instead.
> You'd be compatible with the Langs and be very happy in so many ways because the Ukrainian frame is nearly identical to doubled Lang frames.


This is to say not that the Ukrainian which was almost a doubled Langstroth deep would have been a better choice for Dr Leo's book, but not that it was a necessarily better choice in frame size, because what you like is more like a narrower layens?

Heading off to read your stuff in the other forum, if I can figure out the search thingie


----------



## GregB

Absinthe said:


> This is to say not that the Ukrainian which was almost a doubled Langstroth deep would have been a better choice for Dr Leo's book, but not that it was a necessarily better choice in frame size, *because what you like is more like a narrower layens?*
> 
> Heading off to read your stuff in the other forum, if I can figure out the search thingie


OK, according to https://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/layens-hive-frame-plans.shtml
The marketed Layens frame is [12 15/16" x 15 15/16"]
The paired Lang medium frames (attached along the long side) give you [12 8/16" x 17 12/16"].
This is essentially the standard Ukrainan frame (or a standard deep Dadant frame turned sideways - exact same size).

So, 12 15/16" ~ 12 8/16" --> the width is nominally the same.
Exact same equipment can be used if you allow for both frame widths (should think ahead, obviously).
You see this is not a narrower Layens at all (this is within a generic Langstroth box tolerance - according to my stash under the porch).

The problem is: 15 15/16" <> 17 12/16" --> this particular frame dimension difference is significant.
IF you follow to the marketed Layens hive dimension, you then end up with a hive where standard Lang frame can not be fit in any easy way you try (the hive is too shallow).

Well, you simple ditch the "Sharaskin frame" dependency and instead build your hive around paired together Lang frames.
My own standard horizontal frame dimension is driven by a common frame widely available.
(I get these for about free and just reuse):













Thus you have yourself the built-in compatibility with the Lang frames (the hive will be a little deeper by 2-3 inches).

One obvious benefit - you take in a Lang nuc as-is without any hassle whatsoever (no need for those sophisticated conversion schemes - just stand up the frames against the wall).
In fact, I want to make a small modification in my long hives so I can truly just run the free-standing Lang frames without ANY modifications to them at all - purely for honey extractions convenience.


----------



## Absinthe

Okay, I get it!! I was thinking you were saying two deeps not two mediums. Yes, I see, and saw already how the 2 mediums worked out even when he was showing the shimming to cram the stupid deep in there with the big chunk of 2x4 attached to the side. I fully understand where you are going and now the numbers make sense. Fursov was doing something like 265 x 400 (seems like golden ratio was fairly close). When I was reading Dr Leo's stuff, and a few other things, there were pieces here and there about a void area under the frames, either for a moisture absorbing mat or possibly an eco-floor and I was initially thinking that was simply space that would be taken up when the shims and conversions were applied, but when I look at the layens plans he shows, there was no accounting for the additional void at the bottom. But after a bunch of different views and finally seeing a video of someone using the shim, that they added risers to the layens box to account for the additional depth, and that kind of irritated me to see. So his initial design does two 2x10s with a 1/2" tongue which comes out to 18.5" (on a good day.) But he rabbets the 2x10 as a frame rest and so reduces it that much more. One could certainly move to a pair of 2x12 if it could be found untreated, which would give you a depth of 22-1/2 this would certainly account for the long length of the Langstroth frame, even if the ears were left in tact. The concern this brings to me is that the whole premise is that single thickness Langstroth hives are not well insulated. At 3/4" I think they have an R value of around .6 or .75 and the flat presentation of the 2x anything dimensional lumbar is I think R1. So working with huge dimensional lumber is awkward at best, so perhaps it might be better off to completely ignore his design using dimensional lumber, and go with the sheet goods plus foam insulation board R4 at 3/4" between them, with some tyvek and Hardyplank on the outside adding a bit more r's to the mix. I am pretty sure I can come up with an alternative design based on the "insulated" layens that could hold the doubled medium and shimmed deeps. And if I want to pull frames and make a nuc, split them and toss them through the extractor, I can do that as well.


----------



## GregB

Absinthe said:


> Okay, I get it!! ........I can do that as well.


Good.
You don't need to do this insanity unless you are really into some masochistic ways.
Watch the hard way 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNKy2eFL1t8


----------



## Absinthe

So would the idea be to always use langstroth frames in some type of adapter. Or to build the adapted longer Layens frame as well? It would seem there would be no reason to use an actual Layens shorter frame ever if the box were deepened.


----------



## Absinthe

GregV said:


> Good.
> You don't need to do this insanity unless you are really into some masochistic ways.
> Watch the hard way
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNKy2eFL1t8


OMGPonies!! What manner of psycho-maso-porn is this? There is no way I would go through that.  So the depth necessary should actually be enough to handle nominal width including the ears, plus the thickness of a top bar? I am imagining the mediums bottom to bottom, a couple well placed holes and a rod to connect through them into a block underneath the top bar. And perhaps a filler block with similar rod to connect through the ears at the bottom. I might have to draw a picture or something. Zipties optional? perhaps?


----------



## Absinthe

Okay, how about this. The green piece is the drilled hole pathway. It could certainly be attached using a screw at either end, or a rod that goes all the way through the center, or even just a pin on each side/end. Again, just quick freehand thing definitely not to scale. But this makes the required frame depth equal to 2x the top bar thickness plus the width of a langstroth frame, ear to ear.


----------



## GregB

Absinthe said:


> So would the idea be to always use langstroth frames in some type of adapter. *Or to build the adapted longer Layens frame as well?* It would seem there would be no reason to use an actual Layens shorter frame ever if the box were deepened.


I have built the proper frames of the adapted size when I first started.
They are still around.















But anymore I just make foundation-less frames from Lang plastic junk, like so:








Which then bees build into these:


----------



## GregB

Absinthe said:


> OMGPonies!! What manner of psycho-maso-porn is this? There is no way I would go through that.  So the depth necessary should actually be enough to handle nominal width including the ears, plus the thickness of a top bar? I am imagining the mediums bottom to bottom, a couple well placed holes and a rod to connect through them into a block underneath the top bar. And perhaps a filler block with similar rod to connect through the ears at the bottom. I might have to draw a picture or something. Zipties optional? perhaps?


1. Cut the ears OFF. (Actually, you CAN keep the ears ON, just in case, and use a rod as you depicted; but too complicated to my taste).
2. Zip the frames together (the bottom bars together, not the thick top bars).
3. Shave off your newly created "bottom bar" some - else the "bottom bars" will be catching on each other when pulling the frames up. I just use a cheap Chinese ax for this task.
4. Screw in a top bar (mine are ~15"x1"x0.5").

5. (optional) If this is plastic frame, gut it out and make it foundation-less. The build-in edges are ready for the bees.

I have a pile of plastic Lang frames (in fact, I recycle them for people who no longer want them).
Might as well destroy them half-way and still make use out of them.


----------



## GregB

Absinthe said:


> Okay, how about this. The green piece is the drilled hole pathway. It could certainly be attached using a screw at either end, or a rod that goes all the way through the center, or even just a pin on each side/end. Again, just quick freehand thing definitely not to scale. But this makes the required frame depth equal to 2x the top bar thickness plus the width of a langstroth frame, ear to ear.
> 
> View attachment 55567


To complicated to my taste.


----------



## Absinthe

Simplified, after I recovered from crash  
Removed the additional top bar from the bottom, removed the unnecessary sides outside the ears, created a little screw to hold them all together on all 4 ears. This reduces the nominal depth by a topbar thickness.


----------



## Absinthe

So, at this point, it would require me to make more medium frames.  Amazingly enough, what I have a "lot" of are deep frames, and shallow honey super frames. When I got started I was told to run double deep brood nest. So I had 16 frames, then I got a nuc and had 5 more, and then I got another and got 5 more. So I have 26 deep frames. Then I was told that the bees need about 40 lbs honey to get through the winter. So I got a medium super for that, and it has 8 frames. Then I was told that it was better for honey to be collected in "shallows" so I have 24 or possibly 30 of them, because I bought the frames and they came 10 at a time  So, this little idea will take care of the mediums. 

Two shallows can go together the same way, but that does leave 1-3/4 void between them. Might be fine if I just add a guide to the "top bar" between them. Can't imagine the girls would mind. 

The deeps, could certainly be cut down to mediums. Or an L shaped piece could be added to the existing top bar design that would wrap the deep, or make a weird shaped frame size like 3-3/8 that would simply butt up against the deep to approximate what is going on with the medium pairs. 

Ultimately, there is a benefit to reusing existing equipment. However, it might be better to pick and choose what to re-use. None of it is precious. If these frames have comb in them already, or foundation, great. But now, if it is the design as matter of course, then I would need to provide a starting guide on a side bar. 

So what does this buy me? I can use my extractor if I ever get any honey. Can I remove brood frames and split them to put in a nuc? The rotation would certainly affect queen cups, but should it make any difference for brood? Having interchangeability doesn't make much sense if I can't actually shift from the Layens into the Langstroth. If it is only good for one way shifting, or just for extraction, then I would need to control which frames they put honey into.


----------



## GregB

Absinthe said:


> Simplified, after I recovered from crash
> Removed the additional top bar from the bottom, removed the unnecessary sides outside the ears, created a little screw to hold them all together on all 4 ears. This reduces the nominal depth by a topbar thickness.
> View attachment 55577


I actually like this version, Absinthe.
Indeed, thanks for the idea!

I don't care when I cut up the plastic frames - about the best use for them.
But I feel sad when I cut into a nice wooden frame - with your design no need to cut it and it is easy to revert back.

Anymore I was holding back on the supply of the good Lang wooden frames to use them for more worthy projects.
6-7 frame Lang setup is one such project I want to try sometime.


----------



## GregB

Absinthe said:


> ........
> So what does this buy me? I can use my extractor if I ever get any honey. Can I remove brood frames and split them to put in a nuc? The rotation would certainly affect queen cups, but should it make any difference for brood? Having interchangeability doesn't make much sense if I can't actually shift from the Layens into the Langstroth. If it is only good for one way shifting, or just for extraction, then I would need to control which frames they put honey into.


What does it buy you?
I don't know.
Fundamentally, you need a good enough reason to go horizontal first for the benefits of it and also be ready to accept the liabilities of it.

If that is decided - then now you are into the logistical decisions (make your own frames or reuse the Lang frames - one such decision).

Of course you can move your brood into a nuc (either Lang nuc or Layens nuc).
Rotation of 90 degrees does not matter.
You indeed have it working *both *directions with your clever design.

For extraction in the long hives, you will see that the purely honey frames will be found in the wings (if the central entrance) or in the back (if the end entrance or asymmetric entrance).


----------



## Absinthe

GregV said:


> I actually like this version, Absinthe.
> Indeed, thanks for the idea!
> Thanks! Sometimes it is hard to just write what I mean, and a picture surely can be worth at least a few hundred word
> 
> I don't care when I cut up the plastic frames - about the best use for them.
> At this point, nothing is precious. The only plastic frames are a set of 8 Acorns that I got in a deal with my last colony. I am not sure I understand them, but they are still all drawn out with nice dark comb, so they are in one of the bait hives.
> 
> But I feel sad when I cut into a nice wooden frame - with your design no need to cut it and it is easy to revert back.
> For the most part, the "wooden" frames I have are either from nuc's (which I assume were the cheapest frames available to the nuc maker) or the ones I bought and assembled from better-bee or the handfull that I made, simply to prove I could make a frame. So there are none of them I would feel terrible about cutting into or modifying. The only thing is, I have some 3 deep boxes and some deep nuc boxes so it might be nice to have deep frames to go with them. So it is more of a convenience to not cut them down to mediums. Though at one point I had considered cutting the deep boxes down to medium, and cutting the frames down, just to have mostly if not all the same size. I kind of stayed with deep in the first place because I was using 8 in stead of 10 frame boxes.I I do feel badly about the shallows though. What an oddball size, and the difference between 5-3/8 and 6-1/4 just doesn't seem worth the extra effort required to build the oddball sized box, especially with finger (box) joints because it doesn't measure out nice like the other two. I think I decided at one point if I had to make more of them I was going to make them to the medium height then cut the bottom off to make it finished height.
> 
> Anymore I was holding back on the supply of the good Lang wooden frames to use them for more worthy projects.
> 6-7 frame Lang setup is one such project I want to try sometime.
> I will be interested to see how they go. Is the 6-7 thing a different spacing, or a whole different sized box? I have seen 6 frame nucs, and divided ones for mating nucs that would be about that size. But that is the closest I have seen.


Anyway, the biggest thing I blew in the past was not doing any splits or false swarms or other propagation due to my wife's not wanting more than one hive in the yard. I just decided that I will just do what I need to, and if necessary apologize afterwards  And, if they are either pretty or ornate or subdued enough that they are not so noticeable, well perhaps she just won't notice


----------



## Absinthe

GregV said:


> What does it buy you?
> I don't know.
> Fundamentally, you need a good enough reason to go horizontal first for the benefits of it and also be ready to accept the liabilities of it.
> I am pretty sure I want to do the horizontal thing for the physical convenience of not having to manage stacks. I am sold on it for that reason well enough to do whatever research necessary to learn how to manage it differently from the verticals.
> 
> If that is decided - then now you are into the logistical decisions (make your own frames or reuse the Lang frames - one such decision).
> This aspect was more of what I meant by "what does it buy me." And more to that, the idea of specifically building medium frames to use in such a configuration as opposed to building full size modified height Layens frames. If I decide to make mediums perhaps the Manley style would make more sense than the Hoffman at this point. As it is, with the top bars acting as the side bars that is pretty much what I have. And with the adapter on top and bottom, I am essentially removing access to the Hoffman relief. I could cut relief in my top bars the way I think itis "Matts Bees" did when he was talking about supering his Layens they way they do in Spain in what he called the Layens Colmena. I thought that was a kind of layens, but apparently "colmena" is Spanish for "Hive"  But that is neither here nor there. He does that top bar relief so the bees can get up into the supers. But if I put that relief shape on my langstroth medium top bars (when they become my side bars there will be space for the bees to get out between the frames. I assume it wouldn't hurt anything when I used it in Langstroth configuration, and if the sidebars were Manley I would assume I want to give them a way to get out the top anyway. Just a bit to think about when considering convertible hive configurations. Kind of why the Lazutin design or even the double deep LL seemed so enticing over the Layens initially.
> 
> Of course you can move your brood into a nuc (either Lang nuc or Layens nuc).
> Rotation of 90 degrees does not matter.
> You indeed have it working *both *directions with your clever design.
> Thanks, not sure how clever it is, but I can take a compliment
> For extraction in the long hives, you will see that the purely honey frames will be found in the wings (if the central entrance) or in the back (if the end entrance or asymmetric entrance).
> This seems to be an issue with what I have been reading lately. I am assuming that they will build full resource frames right up against their brood nest. If the nest is not built up to enough frames yet, I will have to move that out of the way or they will treat it as the end of the world like having that super of honey directly over them. So I assume there will be some management of the brood nest at least until they are built up to the appropriate size nest, so shifting empty frames into that particular position, or maybe even into the brood nest itself might be a strategy for a while... More to read, more to learn...


responses inline.


----------



## GregB

> Is the 6-7 thing a different spacing, or a whole different sized box?


Just a narrow box which makes it lighter for you and tighter for the bees.
You will use more of these smaller boxes.
No other differences.


----------



## ursa_minor

GregV said:


> Sorry ursa.
> 
> I have been publicly preaching on BS since I started here - ditch that Layens frame size and do the Ukrainian frame instead.
> You'd be compatible with the Langs and be very happy in so many ways because the Ukrainian frame is nearly identical to doubled Lang frames.
> View attachment 55533
> View attachment 55535
> View attachment 55537
> View attachment 55539
> 
> 
> This is my biggest gripe against Dr. Sharashkin - creating so many headaches for people, needlessly - all those made-up problems with conversions from Langs - completely unnecessary. All he had to say - just make your frames match the Langs and be done.


I do believe he is counting on *new* beekeepers to buy into his hives. We tend to be very cautious and stress about bee space, absconding bees, and just about everything else. This trait, if we also want to try the layens hive, tends to make us buy his hive, frames and foundation simply because he creates headaches we would rather not deal with. I myself was one click away from purchasing both his frames and foundation. The shipping made me hesitate. 

The layens frames have been ditched, well, not exactly ditched but re-worked. We are small beef farmers and so nothing goes to waste, everything is either taken apart and re-used or given another purpose as is. My hives, and some of the frames, were done out of reclaimed lumber and roofing from our cattle shed build. To say the least, they look a little odd, and do not match. 

The Ukrainian hive with it's deep frames seems to be the best option if I want to have a horizontal hive.


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## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> nothing goes to waste, everything is either taken apart and re-used or given another purpose as is. My hives, and some of the frames, were done out of reclaimed lumber


Same here.
I collect construction junk and used bee equipment anywhere and rework it to fit my own needs.
This is how I ended up with my ways and my opinions.

To outright purchase all the beekeeping stuff I have now should cost somewhere approaching $5K easily.


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## Absinthe

Yeah, if you can't make it yourself, then you are at the mercy of lots of potentially unscrupulous capitalists who want to sell shovels to the gold miners.  Because I make my own stuff is why I am willing to give his ideas a try. But without some adaptation it does make your current investment in equipment a total loss. But Lazutin didn't adopt a new format so much as working with the one he had access to at the time. I am still going back and forth on what I want to do. The 18" Lazutin just seems unwieldy. There is the double deep Langstroth design which seems only mildly inconvenient to have to twist the lower frames to get them out. Though isn't it the AZ hive that does that but instead of opening the top you open the side and the frames slide out that way? Will the bees mind crossing the barrier of one frame to one above it? They do it now in double deep vertical hives, right? 

So if one does just plain old all 1 deep langstroth Long Langstroth at say 25 frames. That is the equivalent to 3 (8f) deeps, or almost 5 (8f) mediums. So that means that if they filled it up, and you undersupered it come fall to let's say the normal 16 deep or 24 medium that would mean a harvest of about 8 deeps (giver or take) unless you are pulling capped frames along the way. (in which you could certainly come up with a higher number.) But as such that comes to 48 lbs of honey. Which is 13 lbs or 2 deep frames more than the most I have ever taken off of a hive in my location ever. 

Every time I think I have eliminated one of the 3 designs from the running, Something makes me want it back.


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## ursa_minor

_



Save yourself some hassle and don't bother building anything.
Just stand them up right and call it a day.
No need to hang up anything.
The free standing frames should be the furthest from the entrance and the bees will gradually move away from them.
Like so (a pair of Lang frames freely standing in a long hive).
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_
Well, I did it! All alone, as covid has my second bee suite ( for my husband) locked in transit for the last 3 weeks, and it has all my bee friends that would be able to help locked away as well. I could have used a extra pair of hands, even unskilled ones. Mine were sure unskilled, and very nervous.

Suffice it to say it was an experience I will not forget. Not really a text book install, and it did not go quite as smoothly as I had hoped. I was so focussed on putting the frames in the box I hardly noticed the bees at all.

They were upset, but not attacking, maybe that was because the nuc box I had did not have the frames solidly standing and when you took one out all the rest tipped over into the void. Or maybe they are all like this and I did it wrong, either way it sped up my process and I did not bother looking for the queen. I thought, the quicker the better and if she is there she is, and if not I will deal with the problem when I find out. 

Three days later and they are bringing in lots of pollen.

I have a question on the leaning frames, when do I remove them? I have only 4 layens frames in the rest of the hive space because I did not want to give them too much room at the beginning. The Langstroth are leaning against the back side but I will need them gone when I have to add frames.

I am afraid to disturb that part of the brood nest too early and too often.


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## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> I have a question on the leaning frames, when do I remove them? I have only 4 layens frames in the rest of the hive space because I did not want to give them too much room at the beginning. The Langstroth are leaning against the back side but I will need them gone when I have to add frames.
> 
> I am afraid to disturb that part of the brood nest too early and too often.


Keep putting the Layens frame towards the entrance as the bees progress.
Keep the Langs far away from the entrance.
When you notice the queen working the Layens frames - place a follower board between the Layens frames and the Lang frames so that the queen no longer returns to the Lang frames.
At this time the brood nest will be shifting over onto the Layens frames.
When you notice the Lang frames no longer having the brood on them - remove.


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## ursa_minor

Just a quick question, how long should I wait for them to move over? 

I have had the bees for 2 weeks, they are starting to put pollen on the first new frame at the entrance of the hive but the 4 langstroth standing frames are still full of bees and the queen is still there. I check the bees once a week, remove and correct some of the comb they seem to be building on the edges of the langstroth frames and the hive box itself. The lang frames are deeps so I could not put them side by side and had to lean them up against the side, the bees are building some comb a little wacky. I was considering laying a cotton cloth over the frames to give the impression that they cannot build comb extending out into the hive. 

I keep telling myself to have patience, to take a breath and wait, but I guess I am anxious to do this right and to have the frames hanging in order. I understand this is my problem and not the bees.


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## GregB

ursa_minor said:


> Just a quick question, how long should I wait for them to move over?
> 
> I have had the bees for 2 weeks, they are starting to put pollen on the first new frame at the entrance of the hive but the 4 langstroth standing frames are still full of bees and the queen is still there. I check the bees once a week, remove and correct some of the comb they seem to be building on the edges of the langstroth frames and the hive box itself. The lang frames are deeps so I could not put them side by side and had to lean them up against the side, the bees are building some comb a little wacky. I was considering laying a cotton cloth over the frames to give the impression that they cannot build comb extending out into the hive.
> 
> I keep telling myself to have patience, to take a breath and wait, but I guess I am anxious to do this right and to have the frames hanging in order. I understand this is my problem and not the bees.


This will take weeks.
Clearly, you only have enough bees to cover *the 4 original frames *- they will not just leave them behind and jump into some emptiness.
You need to have enough bees to cover 6-7-8 frames - then those additional bees will be building your new frames.
Then the queen will come and start laying into newly build combs.
Then the nest will be gradually moving over.


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## Gray Goose

months is a better yard stick than weeks. When the hive doubles it Should be 1/2 transfered, doubles again 3/4 transfered , by then maybe 2 frames could be shook out.
do you have pics of the wonky? Is there eggs in the new comb? Else they may be reusing the side ways ones.
If they are building they may need feed to help with wax secretion.

next check see if there is open brood in the old frames, if yeas and it has been 8 days then the queen is laying in the old combs.
They will move out at thier own pace.

if you wish to hurry them , you will force them to leave stores or brood behind..

Any way to start fashioning a Queen excluder? as you find a frame brood less or you find the queen out in the new part , "preventing" her from re laying up the old comb could speed up the process. But the bees would need access , queen exclude only. then in 3 weeks when all the brood hatches you can pull that frame. Likely you do 1 at a time to lessen the impact, and "help to transition , not force.

Or just leave it there till spring then prune it out during the sping inspection.

GG


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## ursa_minor

Thank you both, I did not check for open brood, but there is definitely capped brood. I was in there yesterday, is it too soon to go look again today? I don't wish to bother them unnecessarily but how often can I go in?

I removed the sugar water feed, they were not taking it at all. The blooming season has just started here and I live right up against the Boreal forest which is abundant with wild choke cherry, saskatoon berries, wild gooseberry, currants and willows. I have a large number of apples, cherries, and plums that are ready to burst, and I run a peony root business with about 400 plants some of which, do produce pollen. I will also add that I have a large yard that is rife with dandelions, which I purposely did not mow and, which I am sure, my farmer neighbour is just itching to spray LOL! 

I do have a way to exclude the queen, I have a fairly tight follower board that I could set with a 2 inch gap at the bottom. I would suppose that the fact that the bees are working the frame of drawn comb that I put at the entrance side of the hive is a sign that they are starting to move over.

From both of your answers, and I respect both after reading this forum for the last year, I see that the best course of action, for the bees, is to do nothing.


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## ursa_minor

Just a quick update, I was in the hive yesterday and they have moved onto the frames nearest the entrance and are building new comb, there are a lot of bees. This would make the timeframe about 4 weeks.


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## Gray Goose

ursa_minor said:


> Just a quick update, I was in the hive yesterday and they have moved onto the frames nearest the entrance and are building new comb, there are a lot of bees. This would make the timeframe about 4 weeks.


Sweet
as more bees hatch they will expand into the hive farther.
I would not use the follower board as the excluder. Ideally the queen be kept out only, once brood free the old frames can be removed 1 at a time over several weeks. A follower "may" create a split and E Queen Cells. As well a disjointed nest. 

sound like you are progressing nicely

GG


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## little_john

Gray Goose said:


> I would not use the follower board as the excluder. [...] A follower "may" create a split and E Queen Cells.


My understanding is that the follower board has been in place as a Queen Excluder since around the end of May. Today is the 11th June. So I'm curious - what will the bees be making these Emergency Queen Cells with ?
LJ


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## Gray Goose

little_john said:


> My understanding is that the follower board has been in place as a Queen Excluder since around the end of May. Today is the 11th June. So I'm curious - what will the bees be making these Emergency Queen Cells with ?
> LJ


eggs or 2 day or less old larvae. 

So with 2 inches under the Follower board, queen could have went over there to lay up some cells , then return, Lack of Queen pheromone may cause the nurse bees to create a queen. Here it did not , so all worked out.

GG

your statement is correct, Mine is a general statement, if follower is used as QE then one "could" have split the nest.
The OP wanted to convert from Lang NUC to top bar, so QE would keep the queen from relaying up the frames that need removed, hopefully allowing sooner removal.


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## ursa_minor

The follower was only used to keep the bees out of the back end of my hive. It is an extra long Layens and I thought the space was too large, but I did leave room under the board for them to explore. So I have not yet excluded the queen from these frames. My confidence in handling the frames full of bees is getting better so up till now I have not closely examined them but I certainly will this weekend.


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## little_john

Ok - thanks for that clarification.

Speaking from my own experience, I have no concerns whatsoever regarding the use of truncated 'follower' boards to clear combs, and have been using this method for several years now without a single instance of queen cell development or split broodnests.

Indeed, for me Long Hives have two major advantages (apart from lifting issues) over vertical hives. One is the ability to easily adjust the effective size of the box by the simple moving a of board. The second is an ability to place combs on the 'wrong' side of the board, either for clearance (in the case of partially-filled combs of honey, pollen or brood), or for 'bed & breakfasting' for a few days combs of open brood which have been used to pull nurse bees up through a queen excluder (say) when using a Cloake Board. A very useful facility when queen-rearing.

Here's a top shot of my favourite 'stash' hive:










It's very versatile: will take any depth of frame, and - thanks to the two different sizes of partial Crown Board shown at the left - by positioning the truncated partition board appropriately, it's then easy to arrange a 'stash area' such that only the end Crown Board needs to be opened for that purpose - thus there's almost zero disturbance to the main hive.

There appears to be no significant reduction in Queen pheromone when using a truncated partition (follower) board, as any increase in path length is essentially no different than that presented by a fully-drawn comb in the same position, and - unlike a brute-force metal-grid QX - there is free, unimpeded traffic flow around such a board.

LJ


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## ursa_minor

That is an interesting hive little_john.

As I get more comfortable with my Layers hive I hope to try a few modified hive ideas that have been posted on Beesource. There is a wealth of information here that new beekeepers can access. Thanks to all of the more experienced for sharing expertise that would be otherwise hard to access.


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## Gray Goose

little_john said:


> Ok - thanks for that clarification.
> 
> Speaking from my own experience, I have no concerns whatsoever regarding the use of truncated 'follower' boards to clear combs, and have been using this method for several years now without a single instance of queen cell development or split broodnests.
> 
> Indeed, for me Long Hives have two major advantages (apart from lifting issues) over vertical hives. One is the ability to easily adjust the effective size of the box by the simple moving a of board. The second is an ability to place combs on the 'wrong' side of the board, either for clearance (in the case of partially-filled combs of honey, pollen or brood), or for 'bed & breakfasting' for a few days combs of open brood which have been used to pull nurse bees up through a queen excluder (say) when using a Cloake Board. A very useful facility when queen-rearing.
> 
> Here's a top shot of my favourite 'stash' hive:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's very versatile: will take any depth of frame, and - thanks to the two different sizes of partial Crown Board shown at the left - by positioning the truncated partition board appropriately, it's then easy to arrange a 'stash area' such that only the end Crown Board needs to be opened for that purpose - thus there's almost zero disturbance to the main hive.
> 
> There appears to be no significant reduction in Queen pheromone when using a truncated partition (follower) board, as any increase in path length is essentially no different than that presented by a fully-drawn comb in the same position, and - unlike a brute-force metal-grid QX - there is free, unimpeded traffic flow around such a board.
> 
> LJ


Neat hive, I have wondered if one could put a "NUC size split in each end and let them build until 1 full hive. Leave honey filled frames in the center to discourage the queen from crossing, or if she would smell the other queen and go on a search.

GG


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## granddad

i think it is a great looking hive ! can you update us on how it has worked for you?


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## DrakeJ

OH WOW, what an incredible treasure of information and new explorational experiences with working with Insulated beehive designs! Just found BS and just found thread on what I am most interested in direction of beekeeping for MY region of long winters for honeybees to survive. Have just jumped into our second attempt with bees but have been taking the as many classes and research as I have been able to find over the last five years on the subject. There is soo much that I wish to discuss/share/learn I hope I don't wear out my welcome.

I believe in the advice of all the beekeepers(published or not) in the advantage of using bee races and husbandry practices best adapted to your region for the beat success for the "hobby" beekeeper. Over the width and breathe of our country how can anyone think that one type of honeybee and practices to house them could be or should be the exact same everywhere. Some things might be somewhat universal but others might be needed to be very different to "keep" HB's throughout our various regions, especially being faced with the many challenges to survival they are facing in our man altered environment. Being said winter is one of the toughest things to survive where I live and anyone making it thru them here firsthand knows the advantages of an INSULATED home if you need to stay warm to live. So I see that as a critical thing to address over beekeepers that can winter in our milder regions. As that direction is not(YET) nearly as practiced here in the US(as I can find) I am going to stumble off on that path, I hope with the sharing of info with any others also interested. 

So far I have three insulated hive designs that I have built to start with. A 20 DD(18") frame Lazutin hive design, a modified, insulated DD(18") brood based Langstroth hive, uninsulated supers and a Lewicki design hive(a horizontal design that has DD frames with a brood area and an excluded honey frame area, like a lang on it side).

I also am trying to overcome the issue of installing single deep nuc frames in my new DD hives. Our first attempt two years ago didn't go well in that I thought that a good way to get them off them quickly would be to install them into the lower portion of the hive(on temp ear rails) as I thought as they couldn't build new comb down on them they would move over to DD frames. I also misunderstood Lazutin suggestion that once the hive is inspected in the spring to not disturb them the rest of the summer if things appear well from the outside. This lead to the bees having prospered but they built a winter core of deformed comb upward to top of hive(and just started on to DD frames before winter trapping themselves off from honey reserves above them wanted on DD frames and they starved. Also the Nuc wasn't delivered until late June, they were Italian bees and our winter was coldest in 50 yrs(3/-38F nights in a row).

Took me to two years to source bee cert Russian (I think better adapted to our attitude and as close to the "Northern European Dark Bee" I can yet find Lazutin are best matched to his methods and area. We have jumped in again with a nuc of these bees and a deeper understanding of Lazutins writings as several reading have found their way into better detail I hope(sadly Lazutin is no longer alive to inquire of hi thoughts). This time we searched new nuc for the frame with queen and installed the int the Lazutin hive(which we decided to start with) in the pattern he suggests with two DD foundation frames against one wall then the undisturbed nuc queen frame then the other 4 frames(of 5 F nuc) we brushed/smoked bees into hive(which has the extra space below frames prescribed) so we were OK when we attached another 9" frame under them and we put into hive over them. Stray bees found way into hive as they returned. Then we put 3 more DD frames to the open area side of hive as our first inspection. S 12 F's - F/F/F/NDD/NDD/NDD/NDD/NDD/QN/F/F.

We went with two plastic 9" deep frames attached together(with masonry wall ties) as it was pretty easy to do, they attach very aligned and are very solid. They are mark matched so they can be separated and fit in any standard extractor. Bees are filling them out well though we are having spotty issues on some we waxed ourselves). Starting supplies being limited for some of us such as frames, wax, used comb(especially on DD F's). 

We were informed of Russian capacity of spring build up and we got them in late April this time. We thought we were set until mid summer with room for the bees but the bees filled the frames we had by early June and all we had was enough(unwaxed) frame to fill hive and we were just learning that there were different sizes of cells in plastic(which would be OK for Russians and there was drone comb(did we need it?) and in the time to figure it all out. We filled out hive with prewaxed frames but it had already went swarm mode and we got our first one mid June. It was captured in several attempts(very high 35,very hard, against tree trunk). NOT the docile bee shake so often talked about. Got it installed in Mod-Lang hive but as we only captured about 50% of swarm needed to get a feeder/pollen patties. Whew! Lot more to learn so far than I had planned. Two weeks later an after swarm(dream swarm on a branch 5' high - easy peasy).but we needed way more frames(now Covid shortage).

So now we are three colonies. One mother swarm w/ mated queen, laying brood. One after swarm, virgin queen?, new comb no brood yet. One original nuc colony, lot of bees, virgin queen?, no brood in used brood comb(being filled with honey). So much to learn about at once. ALL filtered to be applicable to three different INSULATED hive designs and Russian race bees. Good news lots of bees(two colonies of which are now all on DD frames), have excellent nectar resources for colony reserves but a lot too learn about getting colonies back to brood production(getting virgin queens mated). I am not near any apiaries I am aware of. Do I have enough drones of my own or maybe feral? Will there be a DCA around me?

Things learned so far: 1)If you want to use plastic frames wax, wax, wax, more is better than less. 2)Lazutin speaks of the use of the hive opening as a means to move the bees brood comb thru hive(queen likes to lay brood close to opening). I think I underemphasized this and did not move my portion of the hive long slit opening to maybe prevent swarming. I am not anti- swarm just wasn't ready for it this year. 3)Lazutin also suggests as little bee disturbance as possible but I think now he is talking about the developing winter core than just checking the hive to add frames, activity etc if weather/temp is not detrimental. 4) be prepared for the next thing if you can - bees don't appear to interested in my schedule/plans, lol. 
/Users/drakej56/Desktop/IMG_0151.JPG

/Users/drakej56/Desktop/IMG_0153.jpg


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## GregB

DrakeJ said:


> OH WOW, what an incredible treasure of information and new explorational experiences with working with Insulated beehive designs! ...


Do share pics!


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## DrakeJ

I am having trouble getting photos to post here. Anyone experienced that has a Mac PC(things work different on them sometimes)? PM or email me to assist([email protected])please.


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