# TBH and small cell regression



## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

Is it posible?How?
Does someone know can the SC foundation be aquired in Europe and where?

Thanks,

Sasha


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Sasha
I would say it is possible. First, Michael Bush uses foundationless frames in some of his hives and his regressed. The concept as I understand regressing is that the bees will make progressively smaller-sized cells with each generation until they stablize at their prefered size. Of course, one has to cull the over-sized combs after the hatching of each generation.

It seems to me that foundationless-frames or TBH are great ways to do it as you won't have to purchase foundation only to cull it if it is misdrawn. 

I don't know about the source for foundation in Europe.

Wayacoyote


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

wayacoyote,

Hmm,but how can I regress bees if I have not the foundation,especially because I dont need the foundation in my tbh? Will they regress themself?Hypotetical question,I know they wont.But what to do?
Sasha


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## chemistbert (Mar 4, 2004)

As I understand it, the bees will make a natural sized comb in the brood chamber. It runs in my mind the topbarguy has some things on his site about this. The cells run around 5.1mm and I assume if after the bees were that size then you could force them to make a new hive and get down to the 4.9mm size. 
My $.02 of course.


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

Sasha-


http://bwrangler.litarium.com/seasonal-dynamics/


Terry


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/seasonal-dynamics/


Terry,

I,see but ,hmmm, I dont understand it really.Is the point that the cells are of diferent measures all the time and does this mean that I dont need small cell foundation ,just plain old top bars?
Sasha


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

Sasha-Michael Bush is the knowlegeable one he has small cell bees

http://www.beesource.com/suppliers/smallcell.htm

http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/lusbyjun1997.htm

Terry


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

Sasha-Michael Bush's site

http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/bush_bees.htm


Terry


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Sasha - this is the Top Bar Forum - which means that the discussion is about Top Bar Hives. In top bar hives you don't start with any foundation. The bees just make it naturally from the starter strips. It doesn't matter what the cell structure is on the starter strips, they will build it themselves "free form". 

What Dennis was doing with his measurements was simply illustrating that bees naturally make some small cell foundation in their brood chambers. He was trying to understand what particular top bar hive would result in the most small cell construction.

The reason for this is because, in theory, the mites can't succeed in small cells. So therefore whatever type / size you can use to get them to build small cell is postive.

But top bar hives may not be the best for your goals, depends on what resources are available and what your goals are...

Hope this helps. If we knew what your goal was we could help you come up with a plan or evaluate your ideas better to determine if they are consistent with your goals...

Cheers!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Hmm,but how can I regress bees if I have not the foundation,especially because I dont need the foundation in my tbh?

From my perspective TBH are natural sized cells. Bees, by definition, build natural sized cells when you let them. Unnaturally large bees may take a brood turnover and a comb turnover to reach something close to natural size, but if you let them, they will go back to natural size.

I have used small cell foundation. I have used wax coated PermaComb and I've used foundationless frames and Top Bar Hives. The end result in all cases is that the Varroa populations have dropped and the bees have thrived.

If you are doing a top bar hive, I wouldn't use any foundation.

Personally, if I were doing a standard hive, I woulnd't use any foundation.

But if you want to use small cell foundation, Dadant and Brushy Mt. sell it and if you have the money to buy a press I beleive they are both selling presses now, but I'd get it from Hawley, since I think he's the source.

> Will they regress themself?

Yes, they will.

>Hypotetical question,I know they wont.But what to do?

Let them.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Sasha,

Thorne, in England, was selling small cell foundation a couple of years ago. I'm not sure if they still do.

Larger foundation has been produced in Europe and slightly larger bees have been raised in it. But raising larger bees on larger foundation doesn't alter the bees genetics. And it's the genetics that control the bee's comb building. 

The French experimented with these larger bees and found that, when left to themselves, they would cmpletely rebound to their natural state within two generations.

I ran a few top bar hives to help me understand what was happening in my small cell hives. The results I saw were quite unexpected. Check out:

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/implications/

And check out:

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/a-i-root-and-cell-size/

And I re-established small cell bees on large cell comb. I measured bees, cell size, etc and came to the conclusion that bees don't have any cell size memory. That they naturally construct a range of cell sizes. And that these cell sizes have essentially the same distribution regardless of whether they are large or small cell bees. And that the bee's size varies naturally as a function of the season, regardless of the cell size they were raised on.

If you are running conventional hives, get clean, small cell sized comb in the broodnest and the bees will tolerate the mites. That's been my experience. But don't get sidetracked on regressing. And you'll know why if you have read my musings :>)

If you are running top bar hives, probably the most important aspect is maintaining a good broodnest structure. It's not as easy at is appears. And it makes top bar hives somewhat harder to manipulate and manage when compared to small cell hives. 

I placed small cell size starter strips in one of my tbhs and the bees reworked all of it to a larger size. Location is everything when the bees build a natural broodnest structure. I wouldn't place any foundation in a top bar hive.

Regards
Dennis


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Sasha,

Check out:

http://www.beesource.com/suppliers/smallcell.htm

for some European small cell sources.

Regards
Dennis
Who forgot to check what beesource had to offer :>))


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## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

Sasha,
I'm in Germany shoot me an e-mail


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

Gary wrote:

Sasha,
I'm in Germany shoot me an e-mail


Gary,I dont have your e mail adress.Check your private maibox.
Sasha


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

David wrote:
But top bar hives may not be the best for your goals, depends on what resources are available and what your goals are...

Hope this helps. If we knew what your goal was we could help you come up with a plan or evaluate your ideas better to determine if they are consistent with your goals...

David my goal is to start a small beekeeping operation and to enjoy in the bees.The problem is that I have limited funds (like everybody) so I thought it would be cheaper to work with TBH.
But I had a big dissapintment last year (first with TBH) when my strongest colony did colapse,I mean the comb had colapsed.The hive had attached the combs to the sides and after I had cut the attacment on one sunny day they have just fallen down like dominos.What a tragedy to see...
Now I have two small hives in a long TBH (made so that I can use them like a long hive).The trouble is that I cant check them.They have attached comb and I am scarred that it will collapse if I try to cut the attachments in order to see what is happening with them.Also smaler one has build comb all on the left side (attached to the left wall of the hive) and the comb ends on the half of the top bare if you understand what I would to picture here.So if I cut it it will not be in balance and fall!? 
What should I do.Can I cut the attachment?How to resolve this problem?
Cheers,
Sasha


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

Michael Bush wrote:
But if you want to use small cell foundation, Dadant and Brushy Mt. sell it and if you have the money to buy a press I beleive they are both selling presses now, but I'd get it from Hawley, since I think he's the source.

> Will they regress themself?

Yes, they will.

>Hypotetical question,I know they wont.But what to do?

Let them.

--------------------
Michael Bush

"Everything works if you let it." Art Carney's character in the movie "Roadie"

Just to be sure ,you are teling me that the bees will " regress " on their own if left alone ina a TBH?
Jeez, it seems TBH are a little bit more complicated to work than I thought before.Maybe it would be a lot more easier to make some frames and use my hives like a long hive.

Regards ,Sasha
PS:WHat metod are you using for varroa "control"?Or if it is off topic for this group maybe you could private mail me.Thanks


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've had a complete collapse in a Top Bar Hive also. It was a Dadant Deep sized hive. I've done a medium depth one now that is working fine and a KTBH with 15" bars that is working fine also. Just cut the connections on the sides from the bottom to the top so you don't put stress downward on the comb.

I also have some long medium hives with frames.

Mostly I don't use anything for Varroa except small cell (natural sized cell). I monitor and if I had a problem I'd use Oxalic acid vapor.


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