# How deep is to deep?



## CoryM465 (Jan 26, 2016)

I'm building my (first) hives out of some rough cut black gum lumber. It hasn't been dried so I expect some shrinkage. I'm thinking adding 1 3/8" to the depth of my deeps and 7/8" to my mediums.

From what I've gathered a little extra space can be good for the bees. My questions is at what point does unfilled space in a hive become potentially detrimental to the hive?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

anything more than 3/8 inch will be filled with burr comb and hard to work.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

1/16 of an inch can cause major problems with burr comb. If you have to cut it wet, make a point to leave room for shrinkage, then put it on a tablesaw a month from now and cut it down to the right depth. Gum does not tend to shrink very much in the length of the grain, but it will shrink up to 8% across the grain. In other words, cut the deep boxes about 1/2 inch too deep and they will shrink to just about the right fit. Dadant gives the correct depth of a deep as 9 19/32 inches.


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## CoryM465 (Jan 26, 2016)

Thanks. I'll add 1/2" and cut the ones I already made.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

As the seasons and humidity levels change, I'm sure the depth of all our boxes change also, so I would not worry about 1/16 of an inch, but the amounts that you are talking about will likely cause you problems.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You are making over sized boxes with green lumber and no hand holds? Using these boxes will teach you more than any answer on beesource.


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## CoryM465 (Jan 26, 2016)

sqkcrk said:


> You are making over sized boxes with green lumber and no hand holds? Using these boxes will teach you more than any answer on beesource.


I'm not done with the boxes yet.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

It appears from the photo that the frame rest is an added on strip inside the hive body. If this is so, you will not have correct bee space below the rest between side of box and frame end. The bees will bridge comb this space and you will have problems lifting frames out.


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## CoryM465 (Jan 26, 2016)

crofter said:


> It appears from the photo that the frame rest is an added on strip inside the hive body. If this is so, you will not have correct bee space below the rest between side of box and frame end. The bees will bridge comb this space and you will have problems lifting frames out.


Can you elaborate on this please? The strip is a temporary solution until I can get a router.


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## NinjaBees (Jan 26, 2016)

More typical hive boxes just have the lip for the frame tongue routed into the top 1/2 inch- when you put frames into that box there will be a gap between the end of the frame and the side of the box, the bees will fill it, gluing the frames in. 

This is the innovation and principle of Langstroth hives, maintaining the proper bee spaces inside the hive, it's not just a box... 

You can find detailed specific plans online, but you can cut the ledges for the frames in many different ways, table saw, or make up a sandwich to give your circular saw a chance... or even just a chisel, old school...

Good luck they are handsome boxes I hope they work out!


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## NinjaBees (Jan 26, 2016)

As a question to the more experienced folks- if his strip is 3/8" or less will he be okay, just have beespace on the ends or will they still build comb or propolis to glue the ends in...?


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## CoryM465 (Jan 26, 2016)

Thanks! I'm doing everything with a circular saw and chisel right now. I used a screwed down 2x6 to guide my saw when cutting these boxes. I'm drawing up plans to cut a piece of plywood as a guide/template for all future boxes. Deducting 1.5" from the template I can clamp it to the board and run my circular saw up against the plywood to get a quick perfect cut. 

So What I'm hearing is that the space between the end of the frame and the box wall is the critical measurement. Correct? Is an 1/8 space on both sides the nominal space?


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

CoryM465 said:


> Can you elaborate on this please? The strip is a temporary solution until I can get a router.


Bee space is quite important in a hive. If you leave too much space (more than +/- 3/8") the bees will fill it with wax/burr comb sticking the frames to the box, or to each other on the top and bottom. 

Standard frames have a 19" long top bar that is made to provide correct bee space. If you set the frame on a ledge, make sure that bee space is maintained between the ends of the frames and the sides of the box. In other words, either the frames or the box will have to be different from standard dimensions.


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## NinjaBees (Jan 26, 2016)

3/8" inch clearance on both ends. theoretically that would indeed work. But if the bees do happen to join it, it will be very difficult to pull up past the strip, kind of locked in, as it were.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

CoryM465 said:


> Thanks! I'm doing everything with a circular saw and chisel right now. I used a screwed down 2x6 to guide my saw when cutting these boxes. I'm drawing up plans to cut a piece of plywood as a guide/template for all future boxes. Deducting 1.5" from the template I can clamp it to the board and run my circular saw up against the plywood to get a quick perfect cut.
> 
> So What I'm hearing is that the space between the end of the frame and the box wall is the critical measurement. Correct? Is an 1/8 space on both sides the nominal space?


A total of 1/8 slack is the space at the ends of the ear lugs. Your frames are standard 19" so the span side to side of the frame rest rebates is 19 1/8"

The frame rest should be a ledge 3/8 wide. The inside hive wall side to side span should be 18 3/8 and the outside span of a standard frame is 17 3/4" giving a gap of 5/16" inch between frame sidebars and each inside wall of the hive body below the top frame lug. This is an even gap top top top bottom. Frame spacing is controlled by the gap between the end of the top bar and the vertical side of the frame rest rebate. There really are three critical dimensions here; top bar gap, frame rest width, side wall of hive to outside of frame sidebar surface.

I went to install a nuc in a fellows self made hives with the non standard endbar to hive wall clearances and the frame endbars were so stuck up with burr comb that they could not be pulled up past the frame rest ledge strips. His hives were virtually unworkable.

If I had to make the construction with only a table saw I would fasten it upside down to a sheet of plywood and contrive a fence of some sort so you could cut the rebates. Hive and frame dimensions and observation of bee space really, really is important!


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## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

YOu can cut a rabbet with a circular saw. I have done it before. I have a small battery powered circular saw that I have built a manner of things with. If you only have a hammer everything is a nail.  

Set the depth of the blade to the size of the rabbet and cut form one side, then adjust again and cut from the other.

I used clamps and put the board vertically with the rabbet end across a saw horse sticking up to make it flush with a piece of plywood laying horizontally. I then clamped a board across the plywood as a saw guide such that the circular say would cut into the vertical boards end as needed. I then cut the boards in the other direction buy putting them horizontally clamping and putting the guide across them as needed. 

Its better than a chisel. YOu can make the rabbets then cut them to length to make fewer clampings.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

beeware10 said:


> anything more than 3/8 inch will be filled with burr comb and hard to work.


Stay with the proven measurements or you will be cleaning all the time.


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> You are making over sized boxes with green lumber and no hand holds? Using these boxes will teach you more than any answer on beesource.


Cleat them you will be happier in the long run.


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## Snapset (May 2, 2015)

If your frames sit on the strips you have nailed to the side with 1/4" TO 3/8" clearance to the strip at each end, replace the strip with a 3/8" plywood panel cut to the exact inner dimensions of each end. This will give you the proper bee space without having the strip in place as a "queen roller". Nice looking boxes.


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## CoryM465 (Jan 26, 2016)

Thanks everyone for the input! These boxes shouldn't be to difficult to take apart, cut a little and put them back together.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Lol, if you try to take them apart after they have been nailed up you will discover why box joints are used -- i've never successfully done it. Maybe if you pull all the nails (or remove the screws), but you will destroy the wood before you get the joint apart with a hammer.

I would just cut a shim to tack to the ends below the strip and accept that they will be different than all the ones you make that are correct. The bees won't care, it's the beekeeper that needs properly dimensioned woodenware.

Look on Craigslist and at your local fleamarket -- decent quality table saws appear all the time at reasonable prices (as in $50 or so), it doesn't need to be fancy, just working. Your boxes will be much better and there is much less risk of serious injury than with using a circular saw.

Peter


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

As others have said, lose the inside scab piece. If you can control the depth of cut on the circular saw -- you can cut a rabbet for the frame rest with multiple passes from the flat side. Use a scrap of 3/8" material to "try gauge" the depth of cut. Two or three passes will establish the depth, and the waste wood can be chiseled out. I built boxes that way in Costa Rica.

A cheapo table saw is a better option -- rabbets can be cut with two passes -- a face cut, followed by a vertical cut. When you get the rabbet cut just right -- save a scrap as a try gauge so you can repeat the set-up by fitting the gauge to the blade. On the vertical cut, I face the waste side in - so if the board wanders the cut gets shallower and not deeper. 

Very inexpensive used portable table saws work A-OK, but invest in a sharp blade and care for it. Much safer to cut in longer boards -- and cross cut to length afterwards (and cut the defect knot out). The blade needs to be sharp, because the rabbet cuts are "blind" -- the blade does not penetrate the thickness of the board.

A ultra simple box joint (and drywall screws) make a multiyear box. I cut the ends as the inside (short) of the joint, and let the sides run past.

Overdeep boxes will haunt you. You can get away with them on bottom of a stack (as bees don't mind an over space on the bottom board much). However, then you will not be able to reverse the boxes and other typical manipulations. If the boxes dry shallow, you could scab on a shim. 

I have boxes that I economized by building out of 1x10 cull boards (9 3/8" net). I have these marked to use on the bottom (as the bottomboard rails provide the needed clearance), but I kick myself all the time for spending the effort on those white elephants. Gradually, adding scrap shim to bring them back to tolerance.


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## Knisely (Oct 26, 2013)

> If your frames sit on the strips you have nailed to the side with 1/4" TO 3/8" clearance to the strip at each end, replace the strip with a 3/8" plywood panel cut to the exact inner dimensions of each end. This will give you the proper bee space without having the strip in place as a "queen roller". Nice looking boxes.


This may be the simplest way to 'fix' this issue. It'll also give a bit more insulation against summer heat and winter cold. Make it fit snugly against the side panels--no room for small hive beetles.

Alternatively, disassembling them, recutting them, and reassembling them with strict attention to dimensions is also a very good approach to this dilemma.


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