# Queen Excluder or not



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

You may find this link to Michaels Bush's site useful:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesulbn.htm


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

How many and what size boxes are you using for brood?


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2013)

I am using 2 deeps for hive bodies and shallows for honey suppers.
Harold


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

I use a similar set up and do not see brood in my supers. I do not use queen excluders. 

One more thing that comes to mind is possibly you have supers on too early?


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## Guest (Jan 27, 2013)

That could be my problem .I put them on before the blackberry's bloom.
Thanks.
Harold


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

This subject has been covered in a previous thread, you may wish to search for it. that said:

We use a single deep brood chamber, deep supers, an excluder, and see no evidence that the bees are reluctant to cross it. It helps however, to have strong hives. i can not imagine not using one.

Crazy Roland


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## kbee (Mar 6, 2005)

I use excluders on all my hives and dont think I have any problems with honey production. If your having trouble getting the bees to cross the excluder you can wait a couple days for them to stat working the supers then put it on. I got tired of haveing brood in the honey supers and also wax moths were more of a problem in stored honey supers if they have had brood in them


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

If you are having problems with brood in your honey supers, a queen excluder will help. However, you must really use drawn comb above the excluder, at least to start, or the bees can be reluctant to cross it to draw foundation.

Is that brood mostly (or all) drone? If so, I would suggest a couple foundationless frames toward the outside of the bottom box. The bees will draw a bunch of drone comb, and raise drones there when they want them (typically early spring when they make a large crop and then sporadically through the rest of the summer) and they will not build drone comb in the honey supers. You can use the green drone comb, too -- the bees will use it for storage when they are not making drones.

Some people have much more trouble than others (or maybe I should say some bees make a lot more brood in honey supers than other). We have had only a single row, at most two, in the center of the combs in the bottom honey super, never more than that.

Peter


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Roland didn't mention that he uses a main entrance directly above the excluder. This is important.

I don't usually use excluders, but have been trying TOP entrances this season and (due to discussion's with Roland) have tried using an excluder with them. The top entrance as the MAIN entrance makes a huge difference!

An excluder works much better when you have both a top AND bottom entrance. My top entrances are right at the top of the hive. Also, it may work better to start with only a top entrance a week or two before you put on the excluder, so that this is used as the main entrance.

I would recommend a bottom entrance of 1/2 inch most of the time, and no wider than 1 inch (unless you have temperatures above 35°C/95°F). I have found that bearding in hot weather has stopped, with having both entrances. The fanners go to the bottom entrance and draw air down through the hive and out the bottom. The evaporation from the nectar helps to cool the hive, with the wettest nectar at the top, air is drawn down. So the foragers come and go in the top entrance without having to dodge fanning bees. We've had temperatures of 40°C/104°F and looking at the top entrance, you wouldn't even think they were hot. (I did open the bottom entrance to a couple of inches on these days.)

The main thing is that the bees store less nectar in the brood nest and more above the excluder! This helps to reduce backfilling of the brood nest, therefore reducing conditions for swarm preparation as well.

Matthew Davey


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I plan on using one this year for honey production just to experiement with it. Last year the honey was broodless.
I do use one for swarm calls to exclude the queen(s). 
I have seen on (youtube) as many as 5 queens from a single swarm. Personally, I had 2 queens in a single swarm.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

When I use front facing top entrances above the excluder I get mated virgins moving in the honey supers. How do you stop that?


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

I read somewhere that turning the QE sideways can help. There are gaps at the front and back where the queen can go through, but she normally won't because she doesn't usually venture to the very front or back of the frames. Never tried it though to see how well it works.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

If you're thinking of trying queen excluders, I recommend you read this POV article, queen excluders or honey excluders to discover the best way to use them.
- + - + - +
What happened to me, was that I discovered my hives were being devastatingly depopulated by local endemic desert toads. I realized that I needed to take drastic action to turn this around. I made myself some screened bottom boards (with no entrances). Next, I made some rims to use for creating upper entrances. I didn't think to add the excluders and drone/queen escape holes, until I read the POV article, referenced, above.
* ^ * ^ * ^
odfrank,
I've only had that happen, once (so far). I do leave small entrance holes in all the supers beneath the excluder -- for drones and queen use.


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

Ive used them for years now. I dont have any data not useing them.

I like not having to worry about brood in my honey supers.

I do use an upper entrance above the excluder as well as a lower entrance below it. I do think it will lead to swarming issues if you dont watch the bottom boxes and make shure they have plenty of space below the excluder.

After i have a full super of honey above it, i have removed it useing the honey super as a natural excluder. Ive been told (and somewhat experienced) that the queen will not cross the "honey barrier" to seek space above. but again, at that point you also risk swarming behavor if there isnt enough room in the brood box.(s)


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

I did not use queen excluders last year, and I did have brood in my honey super. Of the 10 frames in my super, I had brood in 4 of them. I found out that the bees won't leave that brood!!


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

We ran w/o excluders for 10 years then got tired of dealing with brood in honey supers since we extract several times through the year. We added supers and an upper entrance (jog the 2nd honey super back 1/4 inch) and find it works exceptionally well for us. We also like the fact the bees seem to take a little more of the late summer flow and make big bands above the cluster filling it in as brood dwindles and space opens. I think we winter better as a result of earlier season honey stores in the brood chamber.


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## LeonardS (Mar 13, 2012)

Joel, what do you mean that you "jog the 2nd honey super back 1/4"? That wouldn't be enough to open up an entrance, so what is the purpose? Thanks for explaining this to a rookie!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Matt Davey said:

The main thing is that the bees store less nectar in the brood nest and more above the excluder! This helps to reduce backfilling of the brood nest, therefore reducing conditions for swarm preparation as well.


I concure.

I neglected to speak of upper entrances. We also set back every super one bee space to form upper entrances. Be sure to close them back up before fall to prevent robbing.

OdFrank - better swarm control might prevent your virgin problem, otherwise put an excluder between each box, and the next round you will know where the queen is.

Crazy Roland


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## Jonathan4Bees (Jan 29, 2012)

try putting your queen excluder on sideways that should cut down the queen travel going up yet your workers should still go up


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

odfrank said:


> When I use front facing top entrances above the excluder I get mated virgins moving in the honey supers. How do you stop that?


Odfrank, have you been putting brood frames above the excluder with eggs or young larvae?

I have seen queen cells started, but usually when there is at least a super in-between or they are not used to an excluder. The sudden drop in queen pheromone to the isolated nurse bees, even just for a few hours, can be enough for emergency queen cells to be started. Once queen cells are started they are often finished.

Otherwise, as Roland said, it sounds like they have swarmed.

Matthew Davey


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

I have tried it both ways for the past couple years and I really can't see much difference in honey production. But, it is a lot easier to pull honey with excluders you can keep taking off boxes until you get down to the excluder. When I don't use excluders I sometimes have to leave the last super on to let the brood hatch out before I pull it off. This causes extra work. Now that I have started to move my hives a little more I'm going to use them on all of my hives so the hives will be the same size when I get ready to load them up.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Isaac Hopkins was a commercial beekeeper who later became the State Apiarist of New Zealand and he was quite eloquent on the matter. Here's what he had to say in The Australasian Bee Manual:

“Queen Excluders... are very useful in queen rearing, and in uniting colonies; but for the purpose they are generally used, viz., for confining the queen to the lower hive through the honey season, I have no hesitation in condemning them. As I have gone into this question fully on a previous occasion, I will quote my remarks:—

“The most important point to observe during the honey season in working to secure a maximum crop of honey is to keep down swarming, and the main factors to this end, as I have previously stated, are ample ventilation of the hives, and adequate working-room for the bees. When either or both these conditions are absent, swarming is bound to take place. The free ventilation of a hive containing a strong colony is not so easily secured in the height of the honey season, even under the best conditions, that we can afford to take liberties with it; and when the ventilating—space between the lower and upper boxes is more than half cut off by a queen-excluder, the interior becomes almost unbearable on hot days. The results under such circumstances are that a very large force of bees that should be out working are employed fanning-, both inside and out, and often a considerable part of the colony will be hanging outside the hive in enforced idleness until it is ready to swarm.

"Another evil caused by queen-excluders, and tending to the same end—swarming—is that during a brisk honey-flow the bees will not readily travel through them to deposit their loads of surplus honey in the supers, but do store large quantities in the breeding-combs, and thus block the breeding-space. This is bad enough at any time, but the evil is accentuated when it occurs in the latter part of the season. A good queen gets the credit of laying from two to three thousand eggs per day: supposing she is blocked for a few days, and loses the opportunity of laying, say, from fifteen hundred to two thousand eggs each day, the colony would quickly dwindle down, especially as the average life of the bee in the honey season is only about six weeks.

"For my part I care not where the queen lays—the more bees the more honey. If she lays in some of the super combs it can be readily rectified now and again by putting the brood below, and side combs of honey from the lower box above; some of the emerging brood also may be placed at the side of the upper box to give plenty of room below. I have seen excluders on in the latter part of the season, the queens idle for want of room, and very little brood in the hives, just at a time when it is of very great importance that there should be plenty of young bees emerging.”


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Keeping queens confined to the brood nest with an excluder is invaluable in controlling shb in your extracting facility. I also think (but dont have actual proof of this) that it keeps any issues with chemical residues in older brood combs from tainting any of your honey supers. A top entrance of some sort is probably a good idea if for no other reason than ventilation.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Michael Bush said:


> "Another evil caused by queen-excluders, and tending to the same end—swarming—is that during a brisk honey-flow the bees will not readily travel through them to deposit their loads of surplus honey in the supers, but do store large quantities in the breeding-combs, and thus block the breeding-space. This is bad enough at any time, but the evil is accentuated when it occurs in the latter part of the season. A good queen gets the credit of laying from two to three thousand eggs per day: supposing she is blocked for a few days, and loses the opportunity of laying, say, from fifteen hundred to two thousand eggs each day, the colony would quickly dwindle down, especially as the average life of the bee in the honey season is only about six weeks.



Just when I thought beesource was evolving on the whole excluder debate we're swept back into the primordial goo.... "Another evil..." that's a little dramatic. I guess if you call using a tool the wrong way "evil" then I'm good with the drama.

Not sure how you where running your hives with excluders, but I have never seen problems with swarming. The key, as mentioned repeatedly in this thread, is the use of an upper entrance.

Sure, if you put an excluder under bare foundation and no upper entrance swarming will certainly occur. There have been countless stories here about this usage, I feel, leading to the overwhelming confusion. But if I drive a nail with a screwdriver I'll likely gouge the wood - is that the screwdrivers fault? The QE is a tool, and like any tool there are right and wrong ways to use it. I use them on every production colony. My yields exceed the state average by a factor of 3 (conservatively) and beyond other local bee keepers in my area. I mark all production queens and keep good records so a swarming event will be discovered.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Astrobee - could it be that those that condemn excluders are not as adept at managing a hive(swarm, population), as those that see them as a tool? This seems to be a recurrent pattern, those that claim to have more productive , populace hives, seem to have fewer issues with excluders, whereas those that have problems with hive management, swarming, and building populations, seem to blame excluders..... Or I just might be crazy.

Crazy Roland


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Roland,

Glad you mentioned that, because I was thinking exactly the same thing. I've been struggling with what is at the root of this huge debate, and you've probably identified a big component. Its that, or simply beekeepers just like to argue...maybe we should start a new thread....


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>"Another evil..." that's a little dramatic

It's just the writing style of the 19th Century which is when Isaac Hopkins first wrote that.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Another component is the structure of the hive. We run a single deep brood chamber. If they are given more room than that, they have less reason to expand across an excluder. With a double deep brood chamber, there is alot of room in the corners to hide honey and not cross an excluder, especially if not heavily populated.

Crazy Roland


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Roland said:


> We run a single deep brood chamber.


Hmmm, so do I. 

I must be crazy too.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Roland said:


> We run a single deep brood chamber.


We also run single deeps in the business operation.


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## Beetastic (Apr 12, 2011)

I was thinking about running a few of my hives with QE's this year. Gleaned some great info from the discourse. Will give it a go on a few and see what happens. Haven't had too many problems with brood in my honey frames, but it will be interesting to see how things progress vs hives in the same yard sans QE. I run all mediums and foundationless.


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## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

I use an excluder until the first super has capped honey then remove it for the remaining supers above. If my first (lower super) is undrawn foundation I leave the excluder off until they start drawing the foundation out which starts with a heavy nector flow.


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## tacomabees (May 2, 2013)

A question here.... I have read through this thread but am still a little confused on the swarming issue and ventilation. I am in the NW Washington area and it seems like a poor idea to "jog" the top super "back" a bee width as it would let in rain during an event. I have just put on a super with undeveloped comb (foundation only) and let it be for a week.... I am checking it today to see if they are crossing the excluder and have several drawn out frames that I will add to encourage them, our average temps are more like mid-70's to low 80's. When I set the super on, I also did a deep hive inspection, cleaned up all the frames and saw no evidence of intent to swarm....I could drill an entrance hole in the honey super and provide another entrance in lieu of jogging the box about.... comments please?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Contrary to the belief of some, bees do not melt in rainwater. Though most everything else does in the Pacific Northwest.

I once lived in Oak Harbor, on Whidbey Island, for almost eight years, and kept a few hives the entire time I was there.

If you create upper entrances, especially during heavy honey flows, you should discover, as I have, that most rainwater that infiltrates those openings, will form narrow channels that run down the inside (propolis-coated) hive walls, then down and out the bottom of the hive.

Additionally, you may wish to preview this POV; "Queen Excluder or Honey Excluder?". Which describes a way to use queen excluders very successfully.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> I could drill an entrance hole in the honey super and provide another entrance in lieu of jogging the box about...

You could also use a "migratory" lid (can be as simple as a piece of plywood) and two shims. More here:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopentrance.htm
Take a look at the photos. 

I'm a former Washington resident, although I didn't have bees when I lived there. If your bees are in Tacoma, it doesn't get that cold. A simple migratory lid will retain adequate heat in the winter.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Roland said:


> Another component is the structure of the hive. We run a single deep brood chamber. If they are given more room than that, they have less reason to expand across an excluder.


I'm curious about one thing, making notes from tidbits here and there. Do you move capped brood above the excluder and cycle empty combs back down to the brood chamber at all ? Or do you just leave them in the bottom super ?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

When I run hives, similar to the description in the Jerry Hayes POV. Like they did, I find that the bees put very little nectar/honey into the brood nest, leaving most of the cells open for brood. I run primarily 8-frame medium supers for all purposes and have found that I can use only two of these supers for my brood nest. Several times I added a third 8-frame medium super to the brood nest area, either on top, in the middle, or beneath, but every time I had those three supers for the brood nest, the bees quickly filled the uppermost brood super with nectar, so I realized I would need to stick with using just two supers for brood, or find another way to get the bees to use more area for brood. It's in my mental catalog to continue investigating to see if I can find a way to get more brood supers into use by the bees, but for now that project is on hold. After all, the two brood supers do work well.


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## tacomabees (May 2, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > I could drill an entrance hole in the honey super and provide another entrance in lieu of jogging the box about...
> 
> You could also use a "migratory" lid (can be as simple as a piece of plywood) and two shims. More here:
> http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopentrance.htm
> ...


Thanks for the link...interesting read. I checked my hive and found about 2-300 bee's had moved up into the honey super with the excluder in normal orientation and were scattered over the foundation, but not a lot of wax building going on. I dropped in two drawn frames that they can work on and clean up and hopefully it will give them a jump start....I offset the honey super a bee width based on these suggestions and turned the excluder 90 degree's....we'll see how they do.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

The POV that Joseph Clemens pointed out above is a very interesting read, in fact it is what spurred me to experiment with excluders and upper entrances this season. I think that those that have not had success with excluders used them in combination with bottom entrances, and although I have had success with them that way, I am having even better success using excluders paired with the upper entrance and no bottom entrance except for a small drone escape. Think about it for a minute, if your hive only has an upper entrance, then the incoming bees, especially those with nectar do not have to cross the excluder to deposit their load, or even if they give up their load to a house bee, it in turn does not have to cross it to store it away. Sure, some nectar must go below the excluder into the brood chamber for brood food, but the vast majority does not have to do so, and gets stored in the supers above the excluder. I have noticed less honey in the brood nest and much more in the supers when using excluders and upper entrances. John


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## Vermillion (Feb 10, 2012)

I do not use them. I do not like them, and I worry about torn wings and such. I also see no need for them for *me* but I understand that others swear by them.

I am fairly new to beekeeping, but I am up to 20 hives from the one I started with in March 2012, and I do a fair bit of management to make sure I keep moving honey up and out and brood inwards and down. That being said, I have harvested some 20 gallons of honey this year and only two frames had any brood at all, and that was just some drone cells at the bottom of two frames. If I find brood above the brood chamber, and honey frames starting at the outside of the brood chamber, I move them down if I can, or make sure the brood is in the center and the honey outside. I will also run foundationless frames in between frames with foundation, just to keep them on their toes and to be able to harvest comb honey easily.

I tend to put the frames with new foundation in the brood chamber, and return the drawn-out extracted comb above. Unless it looks like she needs room badly. I have not had them fill the drawn out extracted comb with drone...which I thought certainly would happen. But it didnt. They worked with what I gave them. 

That being said, where I am there is honey flow 12 months of the year so I understand my management practices to not apply everywhere.

I have never thought, "wow, a queen excluder would make this easier." And, I do think QEs make it harder on them. I think its hard enough already, but that's me.

I always find fully capped frames (both sides), and they seem pretty clear that they like it on the outsides of the topmost supers, regardless of whether they are mediums or deeps. 

My hive called the Tower of Power has 4 mediums on top of a single deep, and she will go up to level 3 to lay, but always in the dead center. There is always honey on the outside of every box, even in the bottom deep....she is a trooper and runs a tight ship of super productive bees!


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## barberberryfarm (Feb 16, 2013)

Great discussion on whether or not to use queen excluders and I really enjoyed reading the below study mentioned in the beginning of this thread:

http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/jerry-hayes/queen-excluder-or-honey-excluder/

With regards to top entrance hives that use a queen excluder, what happens to all the dead bees and stuff on the bottom board if there is no bottom entrance for the bees to sweep out the trash, other than to manually go in there and clean it out periodically? Also, how do you set up an entrance below the QE for the drones to pass through without regular traffic starting back up through it?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I block off the bottom entrance with a piece of wood that has a 1 inch slot cut in it for the drones to get out and for the bees to haul out the trash. 99.5% of the bees use the top entrance. John


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