# Drilling a hole in the center of brood frames ?



## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

never heard of it. maybe their theory is helps bees move between frames? they can crawl on the edges so really don't think its necessary.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Just saw this idea on youtube. Guy drills his plastic foundation (1-1/2" hole) when he puts it in, then cuts the comb out of the hole for the winter. Supposed to help the cluster by allowing the bees to move laterally through the frames, rather than up and over. Think about it, the frames with comb are like walls the bees have to go around to get to the honey stored on the outer frames. Probably less important on wax foundations since the bees naturally make holes in the comb.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

This idea is discussed already. I myself got it from OT asking him about the thick bars my frames have and the small bee space.
I had bees isolated from stores because they were not able to cross.

Normally in nature the bees are not blocked by frame bars at the sides and bottoms.
So I decided to drill those holes into my wax foundation combs. The wax foundations are thicker and of another consistence than the natural comb I have in my hives and the bees do not make holes in them as they do in my natural combs.
So in my eyes the wax foundations are as much an obstacle as plastic comb if one uses a frame instead if a top bar alone.
But this depends on the width of the bars.


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## Scottsbee (Jan 11, 2017)

Shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line. Makes good sense to me. Some of the natural comb in my hives have 1/2 " holes for more efficient travel. Off center though.


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## rwlaw (May 4, 2009)

I've never thought about the center, I do nip the corners out of the foundation tho. The bees always leave them open and do use them.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

My dadant frames are very big and the cluster can be small in spring after 5-6 months of cold, hovering in the top area.
So i made my holes in the middle of the comb neared the entrance.

I do not fix the foundations at the side and have a space of 2cm. But the bees fix them around the top half mostly.
I plan to cut the foundations in a more natural way next year, leaving more space to let the bees make their own cell size around my small cell pressing.
First to make drone cells and later fill them with stores.

Or change to natural comb as I already started.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Many years ago I remember reading about wintering tests done in the 1930s using colonies having comb that had the "communication holes" versus comb without them. The results then showed that communication holes between comb had no benefit to the colony.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

1930?
Very interesting! What kind of comb was used? Natural? Frames? Did they already use foundations? Plastic?
Communication is the same as a moving cluster?

As I recall, bee communication is done with chemicals and comb vibrations.
Some holes will not be a problem, so no matter if it works not, but if it works--fine!


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

The holes were supposed to allow movement by the bees from one side of the frame to the other. Some beekeepers believed that having to move over the top bar or around the side bars hampered the bees and caused losses because the bees could not reach food stores. The tests showed that comb in frames without holes functioned as well as frames of comb with holes, so there was no need for the beekeeper to make holes.

The colonies used were standard Langstroth's, with deep frames and comb make on wax foundation. I don't remember the actual year, but it was done sometime during the 30s. The question about holes for the bees to use for movement is much older than the 1930s, the old issues of the American Bee Journal and Gleanings in Bee Culture have questions from beekeepers about whether it would help to make them.


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## GoodyFarms (Jul 10, 2016)

I guess the question to ask is do people here who use wax foundation observe bees chewing holes through the foundation during the winter (or any season for that matter). I use plastic only, so I don't know. If they do, then perhaps your idea has more merit.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

GoodyFarms said:


> I guess the question to ask is do people here who use wax foundation observe bees chewing holes through the foundation during the winter (or any season for that matter). I use plastic only, so I don't know. If they do, then perhaps your idea has more merit.


Mine do not. My frames have thick bars all around and beespace is one bee. So I was afraid they could not move up well as I once thought they did because the whole colony froze on the side divider going up.
But I can be wrong because the top deep was filled with honey, no free cells to cluster.
Perhaps they went horizontal and then up and it was not enough space to cluster.
This is the first wintering on natural comb and foundation comb in hives so I will see if there is a difference.


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## GoodyFarms (Jul 10, 2016)

I have heard people talking about running 9 frames in their top box, not only for ease of extraction (cutting off the cappings) but also so that the bees have more space to cluster in the winter. I don't know if it holds any merit or not.


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## Buzz-kill (Aug 23, 2017)

GoodyFarms said:


> I guess the question to ask is do people here who use wax foundation observe bees chewing holes through the foundation during the winter (or any season for that matter). I use plastic only, so I don't know. If they do, then perhaps your idea has more merit.


The believe the idea comes not from bees chewing holes in foundation but from the fact that they often leave holes in natural foundation.


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

I drilled 2-3 holes (1-1/2 inch) through about 20 plastic frames 2 years ago and scattered them throughout 10 hives here at the home yard in an attempt to reduce bur comb from drone rearing. While I do think it helped, it wasn't enough to keep doing it.

I can only remember 1 time there was a small hole left in one, even if I pop out the comb, they fill it back solid, but I've never popped it out this late in the year.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> I have heard people talking about running 9 frames in their top box, not only for ease of extraction (cutting off the cappings) but also so that the bees have more space to cluster in the winter.


I´m not sure this makes a difference because the bees cluster in cells and space.
I´m overwintering them in one deep dadant ( 12 frames) now because I had deadouts from too much space.
If I had a box on top the spacings above would not be important because the barrier is the top bars. The moment they are able to cross everything`s fine.
I´m still experimenting though what will be the best in my climate.
If it´s not working I´m shaving off the top bars in the middle next year, reduce to 8-10 frames with a divider and put a super filled with honey stores on top.



> The believe the idea comes not from bees chewing holes in foundation but from the fact that they often leave holes in natural foundation.


Exactly. I have old combs in broodnest area (5-6 years). Sometimes the bees destroy the cells of an area and rebuild. But never they made holes in the foundations.
Some say foundation wax is used to raise cell walls ( thinning the foundation) but when I culled comb and scraped away cells the foundation looks just the same as before only black.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

L.L. Langstroth used to drill a hole through the hive from one side out the other and then plug the holes in the box. The purpose was movement in the winter. I've never tried it.


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## DeepCreek (Jan 23, 2015)

Here is the video I think others are eluding to. Scott Hendrik:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPSX0kjsSTw


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

Oh the joys of foundation-less.... :thumbsup:


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Thanks DC.
So much work the bees do better themselves on a wired natural comb...
I understand it´s a good thing to use plastic for honey combs but for brood combs? Ok, having SHB.....waxmoth....


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

DC, it was Scott's you tube I was referring to. His videos where he builds hives are great. Highly reccomended viewing for anyone contemplating building their own stuff.


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## frustrateddrone (Jan 31, 2015)

Made me laugh. I am sure bees in the wild eat out comb to huddle for warmth(Sarcasm). If you've ever seen studies with a thermal image photo you'll know that bees move all over the hive during winter. Whatever floats your imagination I suppose.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

No bees would intentionally bite a hole in their comb. Their comb is like a bed room to
them. They will protect them at all cost including stinging the intruder. Who would intentionally put
a hole on their bed? If the hole is large enough the bees will patched it with new comb. A small hole that I
purposely leave after cutting out a QC they will use it to go over the other side.


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## spottedhoof (Mar 2, 2015)

I tried this, and most of mine were closed off and filled in by the girls.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Wild hives, if built in a space big enough to allow purely natural behavior, are not laid out like a lang or a top bar with combs in regimented straight rows. There are some combs like that, but others twist and curl around in what to us, looks a mess.

But I believe the bees have their reasons. They can easily move around this hive, and communication holes are common.

Ever had trouble getting your bees to join comb to the bottom bar? They often leave a gap the width of one bee. It's a communication hole. Not needed in some parts of the hive so they'll connect to the bottom bar, other parts they like a gap.

I too have read the written works about communication holes although so many years ago that memory is vague. My own belief is that for a normal healthy lang of good strength, they can do fine just using the bee spaces we provide them and do not need communication holes inside the comb area. But if a hive is weak or has other issues and it's very cold, a communication hole enables them to flow from one comb to another without breaking cluster or getting cold.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

All my comb is naturally drawn comb and there's some comb from cutouts. A lot of my combs have holes through them that the bees never fix. The comb from cutouts has the largest number of holes through it where they splice the pieces together. I also have accidentally knocked holes in comb or had comb blow out in the extractor that I re-used and the bees do repair it to an extent but do sometimes leave a hole/s. Most of the holes on the frames of drawn comb are near the top bar. The bees typically start drawing comb out in multiple lobes and the holes seem to be where the lobes would have been drawn together but instead they left a hole. The holes are maybe 1/2" "round".

Quite a few of the foundationless frames I use are sparsely joined at the sides and bottoms with wax, about 2/3 are completely drawn frames. The other third usually have a few stringers of wax joining the comb to the end bars and nothing joining to the bottom bar. My observation is that most of my "mostly drawn" frames are newly drawn frames that get fully drawn out in their second year.


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