# Person wants their swarm back - Would you give it to them?



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I caught a swarm yesterday morning in the city. There's a network of beekeepers online, and when I caught it, I emailed the group to say that someone had swarmed, I got it in my gear and that people should work hard to prevent swarms downtown.

People responded that they knew who lost one.

Today, she wrote to the group saying she did lose a swarm and expecting that I give it back to her, because it's her only one hive and she's a beginner.

What would you do?

Adam


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## woodyard (Apr 12, 2005)

Since she is a newbie I would probably give it to her and help her out. However if you decide to keep it I wouldn't t think hard of you either since you did capture it. There will be other swarms to catch.


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## alblancher (Mar 3, 2011)

Hard to believe that those bees are hers. If you want to give her the swarm, that's very nice of you but unless they have little name tags on them or you where on her property when you caught them then no way.


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## Goat Man (Nov 23, 2011)

I agree with Alblancher. You can give it to her out of goodwill but not because of alleged ownership.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I am located 1.5 km away in a densely populated area. I am torn.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Adam.......I'd give it her just because of goodwill, she is a newbee and it'll "play forward." BUT I would let her know that's why you're giving it to her not out of any sense that it's "hers." Make her come & get it in her equip.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Well since you e-mailed your local group informing them of your catch, you kind of set yourself up into giving it back. Oherwise you will look like a ....., er not so nice of a person to the people in the group. Do you really want to dig your heels in and give her the ol'_ prove to me that they are your's _bit.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

was the qeen in the swarm marked if so charge her a boarding fee LOL J/k If I didn't need it I would give it to her out of good will us beeks gotta stick together.


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## yem (Jan 19, 2010)

I agree with snl.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Here's another thing to consider.

She's the Co-Founder of a local bee organization, and promoting Urban beekeeping. I put the word out to the group to let the person know not to worry that the swarm might show up on the local news, after having landed in the local elementary school playground or something. If I lost a swarm, I would also like to hear from area beekeepers if someone got it, so that I too could rest easy.

As Urban beekeepers, our number one priority has to be swarm prevention, or the effort to minimize fear in the public. The head of this project just automatically expecting this seems like a bad precedent.

If I give it back, people in the group are not going to report catching swarms. Who wants to go through the trouble of swarm trapping, just so the person who is not on the case with swarm prevention can come an pick them up?


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

New beekeeper.........co-founder of a local bee organization.......

In the south we call that, "All hat, no cowboy."


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## honeybeebee (Jan 27, 2013)

Help out a new beek if you can...although you do look mean in your profile pic ...haha...the best thing for her is to give them back...the best thing for you is what you decide to do....I have enough things keeping me awake at night...let us know if you give them back.....ps love your t shirt designs....


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## honeybeebee (Jan 27, 2013)

Or...tell her ''it's called beekeeping and I'm keeping them''


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## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

Just because her hive swarmed it does not mean she is now beeless. I see post and emails from newbies all the time saying their hive had swarmed and now they are looking to buy a nuc. Just because you caught a swarm it does not mean it was her swarm unless it was just a couple hundred feet from her yard. I would be hard pressed to give a swarm to someone after I had went through all the trouble of going to pick one up. I would be happy to help out a friend by going to their house and reboxing a swarm if they could not get to it. 

If it is going to cause ill feelings in your local bee community I might go ahead and give it back. You are going to have to weight out the pros and cons.


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## Proskene (Mar 15, 2013)

woodyard said:


> Since she is a newbie I would probably give it to her and help her out. However if you decide to keep it I wouldn't t think hard of you either since you did capture it. There will be other swarms to catch.


Yep. . Beesource needs a "like" button.


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## jdmidwest (Jul 9, 2012)

I lost one last week and it was heading North. It may have been mine now that you mention it. Was the queen marked with a yellow spot?


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

There is no way to keep the bees and come out ahead if you want to stay on the good side of the club. I've read hundreds of your posts Adam and feel like you are a straight shooter. Your honesty puts you in a quandary.

Stating the obvious here, but there seems to be two faulty premises in the reasoning in your club. First, that the collective announcement of a swarm catch will really do anything (positive) for the beekeeping community -I doubt it will do anything more than create friction between your newly founded club members. Announcing a swarm issue may be another thing. Second faulty premise: It is in fact _her_ swarm, unless the queen is marked with a numbered tag. 

I doubt you will be posting future swarm catches, and that would be the smart thing in my view. If you must announce the swarm catch, waiting a week to announce the swarm might be a good thing 

I would do what the others have recommended, and give her the swarm. Not because it _might_ be her swarm, but because you want to keep the peace.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Okay, she lost a swarm...everyone does, even experienced beekeepers. Tough cookies. If my swarm entered a hollow tree, do I have the right to ask the homeowner to cut down the tree? Losing swarms made me a better beekeeper.

Now she wants it back because she's "a beginner?" She's playing the victim card. So does she want to re-combine the swarm with the original hive or make a second colony? She should still have a viable colony with her original hive, and a brand new queen...if she gets on the stick and cuts out all but one swarm cell. Does she know how to do this? Does she know what to do with a returning swarm?

Plus, she probably wasn't going to make any honey the first year, anyway. She can still build up her colony for next year so she hasn't really lost anything. And 1.5 km is almost one mile away...I doubt your caught bees came from her swarm. I can't off-hand quote Seeley's work, but it's a stretch to think those were her bees (and you can't prove it, anyway).

However, if this were me, I'd take the upper path, be a professional, help her know what her options are, and return the swarm...maybe even install it in her old hive for her, which means you have to deal with queen cells or the old queen. There's more goodwill to be gained in giving back the swarm.

There will be other swarms to catch...probably from her hives. It's called Karma and being greedy with this one swarm will likely bite you in the butt sooner rather than later. Returning this swarm may result in a couple of different swarms in the future. Just keep your mouth shut next time.

Grant
Jackson, MO
I'm hot on swarm trapping https://www.createspace.com/4106626


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

If you give it up, the future expectations may then well be that everyone will expect any of their lost swarms be returned to them. Not good.

Unless a swarm is followed from its originating hive, to be captured, it is a lost swarm. The keeper receiving it is the new owner. Beginners should be given the same consideration as any other beekeeper, and we other beekeepers either increase our colonies by splits, cutouts, captured swarms or we buy more bees from others who are selling them. When I have a colony that swarms, and the swarm leaves, for me it's an immediate understandable loss, but it is a loss to me.

I think all beekeepers, especially beginners, should learn this. It sounds more dangerous that hard feelings would be generated by returning the bees in this situation. If the person who lost the swarm, needs more bees, she should probably have learned how to split the hive, it likely would not have then swarmed and the bees would still be hers.


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## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

Brad Bee said:


> New beekeeper.........co-founder of a local bee organization.......
> 
> In the south we call that, "All hat, no cowboy."


That's exactly what I was thinking. Some know nothing yuppie who's "saving the bees!"... 

Not sure about the laws up there, but my understanding for down here in the states is that the only way to can claim a swarm as yours which was thrown off of your hive and landed on someone elses property is to physically track them. So if I didn't notice my hive swarmed and it landed in the neighbors yard, if they so chose to keep it, they could; or whoever might be called in to capture them could. 

Ignorance is not always bliss.

Could always charge her your hourly rate and cost of transportation to return them. That capturing service for rogue yuppie hives gone unnoticed is worth something.


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## nevaar (May 24, 2013)

If you want to keep the piece then also offer to look through her hives for any more queen cells. And you never know; this may be the start of a nice "first date".


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

How far from this person's hive was the Elementary School? If she is further than a few hundred yard away then it probably is not from her colony. 

If she is the Co-Founder of an organization promoting "Urban Beekeeping", the first thing she should have mastered is preventing swarms. If she is expecting someone to "return her swarm" it seems to confirm that she is still on the steep side of the beekeeping learning curve and has a long way to go. 

I know it may sound harsh or calloused but I would stand my ground and keep the swarm. With some well written responses to everyone in the group as to why you made that decision you could turn this into an educational teaching opportunity. There are probably cons either way, but I think keeping it would be the most logical, positive decision with the best long term outcome.

If you had a swarm trap hanging next door she may have an argument, but not in this case.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> In the south we call that, "All hat, no cowboy."

I thought it was, "All hat, no cattle!" :lookout:

I agree with Nabber86.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

If you want to stay on good terms with the people in that group you could offer her the swarm if she comes to you're house with equipment in the next week to get it.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

For every beek who enjoys trapping a swarm or 10 each season, there are an equal number of beeks bemoaning how they lost one. Dealing with swarming is a normal part of keeping bees. If you want the swarm, keep it just like you would with any other swarm. If you don't want the swarm, give it away. Offer it to the members of your group. Offer it to total strangers. Do whatever you want with it because unless she personally tracked it from her door to yours *while it was happening*, that swarm is *YOURS*. Do not be bullied or guilted into giving up your own right to collect swarms. When you collect one you are doing a public service, after all.

What you can do is offer to teach/help/advise Ms. Beginner on some swarm prevention techniques or offer a bit of mentoring on increasing, etc. Just don't get suckered into doing all the work! Offer advice only. And part of that should include the lesson that swarms lost are just that--gone, baby, gone. Period.

JMO

Rusty


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

We all learned this in first grade, Finders keepers loser's weepers.:lookout:


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> Today, she wrote to the group saying she did lose a swarm and expecting that I give it back to her, because it's her only one hive and she's a beginner.


She's got a hive. If she want's another one, she can catch, split, or buy one like everybody else. Swarms are public property.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

If someone is that easy to get on the wrong side of, might as well get it over with and offend them now. You will sooner or later anyway.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Mike Gillmore said:


> If you had a swarm trap hanging next door she may have an argument, but not in this case.


There's no argument if my colony swarms and enters your trap on your property. Traps don't cause swarming, only reveal my inability to manage my colony. 

You're opportunisitic and proactive. No sense in punishing you. 

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Did the person offer you any compensation for your work in retrieving their bees? If not, I would not return them.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

The old Common Law principle was that a swarm belonged to the beekeeper as long as they were within sight. Giving back a swarm that may or not be hers sets a bad precedent. Not to mention the lessons that she should be learning.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Grant, technically you have a valid argument. I guess my point was that if I were to hang a swarm trap right next door to a beginner beekeepers' colony it could be viewed by outsiders as taking advantage of someone. Not necessarily wrong, but not very neighborly. But I understand your viewpoint too, once they leave the property it's fair game.


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## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

Yep, it sounds mean, but at a minimum, I'd charge for your labor and expertise of capturing her swarm. That would be about the exact same cost as a package of bees, so give her that option. If she's so attached to "her" bees, she can buy them back, or she can buy a package to replace her "loss". But unless her hive absconded, she should still have a hive, just a smaller population, which will rebuild. 

I took on beekeeping with a "learn from my mistakes" attitude. I've since lost at least three swarms, and I didn't go looking to get them back. I've also done a few bee removals near my home, which were spring swarms, and I suppose could have been mine. But I'll never know. I also just discovered a small hive slimed by SHB yesterday. I didn't go seeking reparations from the local SHB association. 

Return them if you wish, but for future reference, I wouldn't go advertising you had a swarm, unless you wanted someone to try and take them from you. Hey, I found $20, anybody missing it...?


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Tom Brueggen said:


> Hey, I found $20, anybody missing it...?


Tis sounds to me like exactly the situation.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

In the same forum that you reported the captured swarm tell her that if she will read this thread first you will do whatever she thinks is fair.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Keep em, I wouldn't give em back. She can come visit the bees that might have been hers, put that out there.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

David, I like it!!! :thumbsup:


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I like it, too.


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## T0ADMAN (Aug 5, 2011)

Once you lose a swarm, you've lost it. If someone catches it or hives it, they keep. It. I agree that giving swarms back that you put the effort to catch and hive is a bad precedent. It encourages lazy beekeeping. By taken improper care of your bees and letting them swarm, you get to lay claim to a nice new hive of bees that is very likely not your swarm in the first place. This doesn't even take into account the work, availability and expertise you put into hiving this swarm before they caused a problem. In an urban area, the person who lost the swarm should be taking responsibility for the swarm, not getting rewarded.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Mike Gillmore said:


> David, I like it!!! :thumbsup:


It makes her have to decide to be the bad guy or not - which is really the main quandary.


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## cannon2000us (May 19, 2010)

Confucious say: "finders keepers, losers weepers"


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

As the local council use me to remove swarms I've been in this exact situation quite a few times. People will even contact me and say I lost a swarm in XX area, if you find it, it's mine.

And some people can get VERY feisty. A lady with one hive who has started her own group is likely in this category.

From a PR perspective I think you should give it back. After all, it's just a bunch of bees plus unknown queen. But have a look at her bees and see if they are the same. (carni vs Italian, or whatever). If they are different make her aware of that, and what a nice guy you are giving them to her.

Then, as I suspect you are the most knowledgeable person In the group, send out an email stating that normal beekeeping practise is swarms are the property of the finder as ownership cannot be proved. You have decided to help out this woman on this occasion but this should not set a precedent as to how beekeepers in this group will act among themselves in future, as this can only lead to disputes and bad vibes. Say that during swarming season which is now, there will be many swarms and establishing ownership is totally impossible which is why the law is written the way it is.

I'm a member of a hobby bee club, they have 7 hives at their meeting place. Last swarm season, a couple of meets people showed up & there was a swarm in a tree, right next to the hives. First person to see it grabbed it & took it home. Nobody disputed that, it's the way it's done.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

DarkWolf said:


> Some know nothing yuppie who's "saving the bees!"...


Yep


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> > In the south we call that, "All hat, no cowboy."
> 
> I thought it was, "All hat, no cattle!" :lookout:


I think you're right! LOL


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

What would Reverend Lorenzo Lorraine Langstroth do?


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## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

I had a hive swarm recently and I'm sure those are mine.Please mail them to me asap.


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## Ledge (Dec 15, 2010)

I'm so sorry to hear that the swarm that you just caught absconded...that's a shame.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

Last week the guy that I'm mentoring got a swarm call about a 1/4 mile from one of my yards. He called me as he was in route to tell me my bees have swarmed. We never discussed ownership, but from my perspective they were now his bees. As it turned out the swarm left before they could be captured.


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## Coffee_Bee (Feb 3, 2013)

Her premise is laughable. Did she see it swarm and cluster? This can be a teachable moment. Claiming that a swarm that is not on your property is yours is probably one the oldest scams.

When I catch swarms I always wonder who's hives they came from, but I'll be darned if someone came of the woodwork claiming they were "his bees". It's like someone claiming "your" bee stung them.

That is part of beekeeping. Have someone send her this thread. I'd barter for your time & effort if she really wants a second hive. Swarms do not equal a dead hive.


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## mtndewluvr (Oct 28, 2012)

I have caught enough swarms so far this season that I had run out of equipment, so I began bartering swarms for different things I needed (with no guarantee on the queen). IF you decide to give them back, I'd consider trading the swarm for any queen cells she has so you can go back and make a couple of splits (if you needed to), etc. My last couple of trades have been for new 10 frame deeps and frames w/foundation (about $40 to $50 around here). While I agree with not giving them back, make sure you get something in return if you do.


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## DOEBOY (Apr 14, 2012)

I'm of the opinion that unless you are standing next to the swarm you just tracked by sight to the new location that they landed then you are sure out of luck. I had a friend call and leave me a meesage to ask if I could help her catch a swarm above her hive in her tree because she couldn't reach it. I couldn't answer the call because I was on a ladder holding a power line to be hooked back into the house. When I called her back she had called someone else that told her they would catch the swarm but only if they could keep it. To me that's kind of sorry not to help someone not physically able to get the swarm that is obviously theirs. If I had time I would have surely helped her and gave them back to her. I'm sure the reason she gave them to him was so they could be caught and not get away. But as far as give a swarm to someone just because they say they're theirs, not near their house not happening. Nearly 2 miles away, definitly not happening. Doeboy


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

My son called me a few years ago to tell me he saw a swarm on his way to work. I collected it, got it settled into a hive, fed and managed it until it was big enough to split. I grafted a few queens from the colony. He got one nuc with a daughter and I kept the remainder with original queen. I thought that was fair.

If I was in your situation, the lady's attitude would determine my response. If she was nice, I might share. If she was demanding, I would dig in my heels and pull down my cowboy hat 
As my dear departed dad would have said.."Not just NO, but HELL NO!"


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## curios1 (Jul 2, 2012)

i am missing a swarm also. you will recognize them. its a bunch of bees with a queen. but seeing how you took the time to catch them. there yours thanks.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

For me, it's about precedent and the larger issue of urban beekeeping. If we want to have legal urban beekeeping in Halifax - it is presently not legal - then swarm prevention has to be a major priority. Maybe THE priority. If a group leader can't manage to keep a single hive from swarming, then catching the swarm and giving it back is just asking for it to happen again.

Swarming in an urban area is a much bigger problem than it is in a rural area. In the city, we aren't just losing bees, but potentially scaring and injuring lots of people. That's more important than losing the bees, and it could have some pretty nasty consequences.

I appreciate your responses, but I remain conflicted.

Adam


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## dphillipm (Mar 27, 2013)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> For me, it's about precedent and the larger issue of urban beekeeping. If we want to have legal urban beekeeping in Halifax - it is presently not legal - then swarm prevention has to be a major priority. Maybe THE priority. If a group leader can't manage to keep a single hive from swarming, then catching the swarm and giving it back is just asking for it to happen again.
> 
> Swarming in an urban area is a much bigger problem than it is in a rural area. In the city, we aren't just losing bees, but potentially scaring and injuring lots of people. That's more important than losing the bees, and it could have some pretty nasty consequences.
> 
> ...


The swarm is your,but a new beekeeper that had only one hive. I would make sure that her story is true,but if it is then I would give it back.


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## JStinson (Mar 30, 2013)

> If you give it up, the future expectations may then well be that everyone will expect any of their lost swarms be returned to them. Not good.


x2

I understand where this lady is coming from, but that doesn't make her request any less ridiculous. You went to the trouble and expense of collecting them. If you give them back, she will have learned nothing about beekeeping etiquette and swarm prevention. Also, you'd be setting a tricky precedent for the future.

Keep the bees. Offer her a free lesson in swarm prevention.


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## Kirk Osborne (Oct 7, 2012)

They are your bees. You decide what you WANT to do. No harm - no Foul. If my urban bees swarm and someone catches them, it is my loss. If someone elses bees swarm and I get them, it is thier loss. I'll gladly help out other beekeepers if they are in need, but charity is a different matter... and charity with added pressure is no charity. Good luck.


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## Beestricken (May 16, 2013)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> For me, it's about precedent and the larger issue of urban beekeeping. If we want to have legal urban beekeeping in Halifax - it is presently not legal - then *swarm prevention has to be a major priority*. Maybe THE priority. *If a group leader can't manage to keep a single hive from swarming, then catching the swarm and giving it back is just asking for it to happen again.*
> 
> ............
> I appreciate your responses, but I remain conflicted.
> ...


It doesn't sound like you're conflicted. You make perfect sense. If you explain it the same way to your club, anyone with reason should understand your point of view. If you're conflicted because you think there might be some animosity if you keep them, then it might be best to give them back, explain why preventing swarms should be "THE priority", and, as Rusty said, teach or advise her on some swarm prevention techniques.
I also think that everyone in your group should read this thread.
Good luck with your decision, and I'm looking forward to hearing how this turns out.


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## deejaycee (Apr 30, 2008)

good grief. If it helps at all, Adam, feel free to tell your lady that you are following the long-standing national, international, *intercontentental* and *inter-flippin-hemispherical *standard rule that swarms, once they leave their home site, are the property of whomever captures them. 

There's no need to feel conflicted. 

That she is new is irrelevant. 

That she is the leader of a group is relevant, only in that if she wants to take that position she should be a good enough role model to, 1, control her swarms where possible, and 2, understand tradition and convention. 

If you have no particular need for the swarm you may offer to sell it to her for a capture fee, just as you would to any other beekeeper. But she has no more right to it than any other beekeeper, whether or not it may have come from her hive.


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## Duranthas (Mar 17, 2012)

Adam Foster Collins said:


> For me, it's about precedent and the larger issue of urban beekeeping. If we want to have legal urban beekeeping in Halifax - it is presently not legal - then swarm prevention has to be a major priority. Maybe THE priority. If a group leader can't manage to keep a single hive from swarming, then catching the swarm and giving it back is just asking for it to happen again.


So urban beekeeping isn't legal where you are at? If that's the case then I would not give them back for sure.

As an organizer of an urban bee club, she should know better and if she didn't.... well hard learned lessons are not easily forgotten. I have _read_ plenty about swarms, but this year when one of my hives threw off a fair sized swarm I realized how lazy I had been regarding swarm prevention. Now that I got burned, I will certainly increase my efforts to not lose half my workforce out of a hive again.
When I started beekeeping my neighbor about 1/4mi away told me to set up some swarm traps and maybe I'll get lucky and catch one of his and increase my hives. If by chance he (or anyone else) caught my swarm this year, good for them and I'd be mad at nobody but myself for it.

I can see how your conflicted because on one hand you want to keep good standing in your bee club, but on the other hand the swarm put off in an urban environment is pretty unacceptable, especially by someone that is organizing/leading a bee club. Perhaps now they will schedule more teachings/lectures/workshops on how to minimize swarming so that other noobs don't repeat their mistake. Giving the bees right back will only teach them that this is really not a big deal (which it is a huge deal if urban beekeeping isn't legal there).
The thing that tips the scale to keeping the bees yourself IMO is that it was a whole week before they reported it. A week plus old swarm is a completely different hive now and they should know that which to me stinks of greed because it sure seems like they aren't wanting to increase the size of their hive but instead their hive*S*.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Kirk Osborne said:


> charity with added pressure is no charity. Good luck.


I am a little confused. She had 1 hive. Did she want 2 ? That would have been easy and should have been done. 

What will she do with the bees if you return them? Does she want 1 big hive? That will just repeat the swarm. Does she want the bees or her pride back?

If I gave anything it would be the makings of a nuc, not that swarm. There must be more swarm cells cooking already. 
What is being done to stop the next swarm? What are the other members doing to prevent their swarms? Time for an emergency meeting. 

Your club either needs to depend on death or have a method of removing surplus bees.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I woudl not return them It would be setting a bad standard. One that encourages others to think that they can also claim the loss of a swarm and get it back. that is why you do not want hives to swarm you "loose" the bees.

Secondly you came by that swarm because you also captured it. that did not come free. Someone does not capture a swarm by being somewhere else doing something else when the swarm is being caught. that may be why her hive swarmed. She was somewhere else doing something else rather than keeping bees also. Hey it happens to me and I live with it. I strongly disagree that the consequences can be cancelled simply because someone is new or makes a claim. She failed to prevent swarming. now live in what happens when they swarm. And swarms are up for grabs. as far as I know that has always been the rules. have your glove on or don't catch any I guess. but you can't be out to dinner and expect to capture the swarm at the same time. otherwise do you want to come do my beekeeping for me also?


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

She sounds like an uninformed wanabe beekeeper. If she wants’ to be an actual beekeeper she needs to learn proper bee educate and protocol. What makes her think her hive swarmed in the first place?? Donate them to the club and make it the club hive and have her manage it have her donate the equitment so all members can learn how to prevent swarming. (like that’s possible) if she whines she looks like a chump if you keep em you look like a chump. If she wants to lead she needs to act like a leader and not a 5 year old.


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## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

I always find it fascinating how with each added page to a thread, information gets misconstrued and warped. Oh well though.  



Adam Foster Collins said:


> If we want to have legal urban beekeeping in Halifax - it is presently not legal


So, she formed a beekeeping club in the middle of a city where beekeeping is against city code? Reminds me of some of the folk at Backyard Chicken who just LOVE to skirt the law and keep several chickens on their property when they know full well they should not. Some of which put their roosters in a soundproof box during the night and morning. 

.oO(Oh, I'll just keep this little hive hidden in this corner where NO ONE will know!.. What? Huh? A car just crashed into a bus of school children because they were freaked out when a swarm hit their windshield?? *cough* not my swarm..)



Adam Foster Collins said:


> - then swarm prevention has to be a major priority. Maybe THE priority.


You're quite right. In fact it's far more important than those of us with space to spare. I'd be doing some forced splits to keep the population down and disregard any and all notion of honey production. Though I'm sure she's all set to make cute jars and sell it as a premium as bootleg city honey. 



Adam Foster Collins said:


> I appreciate your responses, but I remain conflicted.


Sounds like nice guy syndrome. You know she's in the wrong, but feel obligated to be a nice guy. I know how that can be. I highly doubt though that giving them back will solve anything... However, consider it from this respect... Is it all even worth the trouble? If you're out to teach a lesson, then I'm sure you know that answer. 

BTW, how many people are in that fancy city club of hers?


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

We often receive calls from beginners in the Bay Area who are not members of our club, have never attended a meeting, have never volunteered for any events we have, wanting us to retrieve their swarm for them. Most of these beginners have never taken a class, never took the initiative to educate themselves on swarm prevention or any other aspect about beekeeping.

They think they have goldfish in their backyard pine box and then when something goes wrong, we get the call.

If someone is available, we will respond only if the person is willing to make a donation to the club or pay for the service. Otherwise, NO!


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## Stephen (Mar 2, 2011)

She went from a beehaver to a beehavenot. Keep them. They're your bees now. People shouldn't expect to be coddled.


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## Colleen O. (Jun 5, 2012)

Can she accurately identify them in a line-up?

I am a fairly new beekeeper (in my second year) in an urban setting. I can keep up to 5 hives on my property according to the ordinances so that aspect is different but I am pretty sure my neighbors expect me to try to manage my hives to prevent swarming. If I don't manage to prevent a swarm and don't manage to catch it...it would be my LOSS. I am pretty sure my neighbors that know I have bees would be trying to track me down for me to go get them, but if I wasn't available and someone else got them they would then be THEIR bees. If I "want them back" that would be up to the person who caught them to decide if they want to sell THEIR bees and to quote the price. If I lose my bees from my own negligence then learning how to prevent that loss becomes a priority.

I lost both my hives last winter and had to buy a new package to replace them. I only bought one with the plan to try to either catch a swarm or build them up and split to have the second. This has been a great learning opportunity that I wouldn't have had if I hadn't lost them. You don't learn as much from your successes as you do from your failures. There are many ways to lose bees and nature isn't going to just give them back on our demand.

Don't give her the bees, give her the opportunity to learn. Offer to help her inspect her hive, if it needs to be split talk her through how to do it. Talk about what she should have been looking for and doing to prevent a swarm. Help her but don't give her the bees. Sell them to her if you like, put a price on your time and effort.


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## Eddie Honey (May 30, 2011)

What was that Adam???? The swarm you captured abscodned? Bummer...


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## Ozone (May 24, 2011)

I read half the responses in this thread, lots of good info. 

But did any address whether it was a swarm or abscond? If swarm, what would she do with it, put it in second hive? The first won't take it without work.

Tarry on.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Our bee club is the only bee resource in a fairly rural county We're the only local resource for bees in the area. Swarms and nuisance bee calls are referred to us. We get the usual calls to investigate wasps and bumblebee nests. Calls from folks who expect us to trap bees out of their walls, etc., but this is the first story I've heard of a swarm, already captured, being claimed by someone who perhaps had never laid eyes on those bees.

One other thing our association does is to try to promote a positive image for bees and beekeeping. Beekeeping is specifically permitted in the city of Athens, OH. There's a beekeeper on the edge of town with 30-50 hives that does no sort of swarm control, so every year one neighborhood is subjected to numerous swarms. This is the worst public relations possible. Seems like swarm control should indeed be the #1 priority in a city with no bees allowed.


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## Northwest PA Beekeeper (Mar 28, 2012)

Just because you caught a swarm on that day, and just because her bees swarmed that day does NOT mean they were hers. I'm guessing she wouldn't have been any the wiser that her bees swarmed other than you posted about catching a swarm and where it was. She went out to her beehive, noticed not as much activity, got into the hive and noticed they must have swarmed.
But now you are in a bad position. You are a "mean guy" if you don't give them back. After all, she is a newbie. But she still has a hive of bees. And if you do give it back, is this going to set a new standard in your club?
"I caught a swarm of bees at X location."
"Oh yeah, I just went out and one of my hives doesn't have as many bees in it. They must be mine. When are you going to drop them off?"

That swarm could have gone anywhere. If you hadn't captured it, would someone else or would it have set up a new home in someone's roof eave or walls?

The "standard" beekeeper mentality I think, is once the bees leave your hive and go onto someone else's property, they instantly become the landowner's property where they landed. In this case - the school. The school is publicly owned property, but the fact is you got the call, and you went out and gathered them. In this case, the school gave them to you.

I'm sure all beekeepers would agree that if my hive swarmed into a tree on my property, and another beekeeper came along to catch them (when they are on my property), that's bad business. But if that same hive swarms and lands 4 houses away, the people that own that property can now do with them what they want. If they know I keep bees, they would probably call me. If they don't like me, and don't like bees, they might just call the local pest control company to get rid of these bees. Or, they might call another beekeeper.

If they leave the beekeeper's property, they aren't yours anymore.

Do what you want - you are in a no win situation. But in the future, I'm be awful quiet on what swarms you catch. You yourself might want to start a new tradition, where you only let the group know how many swarms you caught in the last week. The location of where you caught them shouldn't even be discussed.


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## Bee-tlejuice (Oct 2, 2007)

"If they leave the beekeeper's property, they aren't yours anymore." <-- WRONG!

Under Common Law (IIRC) (or whatever its name is), which predates English Law and therefore U.S. Law, and is still consulted to determine traditional/customary handling of legal situations since it essentially underlies our modern laws, ownership of a swarm remains with the owner if he pursues the swarm until (IIRC) he sees it land -- however, if it lands on someone else's land, it becomes similar to the situation of a frisbee blown by an unexpected gust, for example, onto someone else's grass; the frisbee is still technically yours but the owner of the land upon which it now sits should be asked for permission for reasonable trespass to collect the frisbee. If the frisbee is stuck on a fragile roof section or in a valuable fruit tree, the fee demanded by the land/roof/tree-owner may be too expensive for the frisbee owner -- time to buy another frisbee!

I don't have the citations/URL's for the above at the moment, but that's the general gist of swarm ownership precedent stretching back almost a millennium.

Since she *didn't* pursue, much less maintain pursuit of her swarm, the swarm you collected, even if it can be proved to have originated from *her* hive, is now *yours*, period. BTW, I second the earlier advice to ONLY announce that you've caught N live wild swarms, but not EXACTLY WHERE AND WHEN -- limit the information to just enough to imply that "Some covert member of the outlawed urban beekeeping resistance *HAD D**N WELL BETTER IMPROVE THEIR GAME, *NOW** !!!" -- after all, emitting swarms from a carefully concealed beehive is roughly equivalent to erecting a full-size billboard above it reading "SECRET BEEHIVE RIGHT HERE"!

On the fun side: If you're both single, now you "have her goat", so to speak; instead of selling her your swarm for, say, $70 U.S. in Canadian currency (like a package with pre-released queen, pick-up only), sell it for two dates with her, you pay (or perhaps separate-pay/"Dutch Treat"), locations/times negotiable -- if she asserts that you're trying to turn the swarm situation to take advantage of her, remind her that she just set a *DEPLORABLY POOR LEADERSHIP EXAMPLE* for her club flock by allowing them to swarm in the first place -- had she even taken a most basic precaution of setting up a bait/trap hive? She already, figuratively speaking, stripped stark naked and performed an erotic dance in the town square at high noon on market day while yodelling "I'm feeling very frisky!" -- anyone witnessing or collecting opinions from those witnessing that swarm in motion could have already traced their travel back close enough to her yard that they can now use traditional beelining to locate her *FORMERLY well-hidden* hive/treasure/legal vulnerabilityinch:. Good Luck! :thumbsup:


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Hmm.... And I had always thought it was the female of our species that read too much into small things I did or said.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

So, what became of the swarm in question?


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## virginiawolf (Feb 18, 2011)

I was at my friends yard today and I have bees there. I can tell my bees apart from his easily. Have her send you a picture of her bees and see if they look the same. If they do then the notion of giving it back to her can be decided but if they are two different strains you can send a photo back and say these are what the swarm bees look like they aren't your bees sorry." I think an identification should be rather easy with a photo but only if she still has some of the bees left in the hive. I can understand all the thoughts on this so far but a side by side comparison might prove that they aren't even from her bees.

If they are indeed her bees it seems like she should compensate you in some way for your time but I am the type of person that gives a bunch of my time without expecting anything in return often so I don't always follow that but anyway... Good Luck!!!


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## DarkWolf (Feb 20, 2013)

And to be sure she understands just what's at stake, put newspaper with the date on it in front of the hive they're in, wear a mask and hold an AR-16 up to the hive. Send that picture. 

   

Ok, seriously.. This is now an old topic. What became of the swarm?


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## curios1 (Jul 2, 2012)

SO! have ya given them back ?


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## hokieute (Mar 6, 2011)

I think sending your group a link to this thread will resolve the issue . . . . .or create chaos.


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