# Plastic foundation getting a bad rap?



## okbees (Nov 3, 2010)

We use primarily plastic frames or foundation. I am always in a discussion with people on the pro and cons on plastic foundation or frames. Even though we use the plastic frames on some of the hives, my first choice is wood frames and plastic foundation. The reason is that if a plastic frame breaks, it is not easily repaired, if at all. The wooden frames can be repaired or the plastic foundation can be put in another frame with the pulled comb and even brood. We always rub beeswax on the foundation prior to installing, whether the foundation is new or has been used previously...unless comb is already drawn. I have posted some pics so people can see what we get with our frames and foundation. Just an informational post with pics. Enjoy. https://picasaweb.google.com/111863660513010434468/UsingPlasticFoundationInHives#


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I use pierco plastic foundation. I melt wax in a crock pot and use a 3" chip brush and brush on another coat. All I have available to me is the allready waxed foundation. I have found that when you put on another box, wether it us a super or a deep they will immediately start to form out the cell long before they actually will draw it out. Which tells me they like what I have given them. The pierco deep foundation comes black and it makes it much easier seeing the eggs. I have actually put wax foundation in the same hive with the pierco and they drew out the recoated foundation before they did the wax. Love my Pierco!!


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## MichaBees (Sep 26, 2010)

I use Pierco and foundation-less frames in a combo structure. The Pierco is used on between two foundation-less frames to provide guide. After working with 2000 foudation-less and over 1000 piercos, I see the bees like the foundation-less better. I also have a few with foundation, but the bees prefer the foundation-less over all others.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

If you give them a choice they clearly prefer foundationless, but if there is a flow on and you don't give them a choice they draw plastic just fine. I have plastic in some hives, and wax in others in my yard and it didn't seem to make a significant difference. If there isn't a flow on - that's another story - even then a crowded hive will draw plastic if they need the space.

On the other hand they almost always chew out the bottom edge of the wax foundation, and then build drone comb in it next year, and it's more fragile during assembly, extraction and grafting. If it isn't carefully installed it will sag. If a plastic frame gets slimed by SHB you can scrape it off if it's bad, rinse it and put it into a strong hive and they will redraw it.

I use a good bit of foundationless, but I think I'm done fooling with wax at all. Other than it being less expensive I don't see any advantage to it.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Strange how bees act differently in different areas of the country. My bees always have drawn the comb on pierco foundations faster than they have any foundationless frames. I have not had to add wax to Pierco foundations as long as the nuc or colony was strong in young bees and there is a good flow going or I feed. I no longer use wax foundations because the Pierco is convenient.


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## beedeetee (Nov 27, 2004)

I just finished a case of white pierco (probably purchased a couple of years ago) (honey super frames) and was noticing that there were actual bare spots where there was no wax. I just got another case of the same white pierco and this new case had significantly more wax. Did I just get a "bad" case of pierco, or are they putting on a lot more wax now? Just opening the case you could easily see the wax on the frames.

I have always tried to get Perma-dent foundation for my brood frames since it always had more wax, but it is harder to find. Honey supers are easier since they are usually drawing them during a flow and will pretty much use anything for comb at that time.


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## okbees (Nov 3, 2010)

Anytime I noticed that the wax was bare on my Pierco foundation/frames, was when they have been stored in a hot location for a period of time, and that was my fault in how I stored them....and have learned from it. I have just made it a habit to rub beeswax from a bar, real heavy on the foundation prior to putting in the hive, whether it needed it or not. I don't know if the company is putting more wax on the foundation lately.


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## tben (Dec 28, 2008)

I have about an even mix of foundationless and plastic frames in my two hives. 

In both hives the bees drew out the plastic (pf-120) before they began to draw out the foundationless frames. One contributing factor might be that the pf-120s were waxed while my foundationless frames are of the unwaxed, Popsicle stick variety.

What I don't like about the plastic is that every frame is heavily burr combed and propolized on the top and bottom while none of my wood frames have burr comb.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Yes, burr comb is one of my gripes with the plastic frame. It is a little more work to assemble the wood frames but they are a pleasure to use compared to the all plastic.

okbees: I also noticed the wax being either heavier or more evenly applied to the last batch of Pierco foundations I bought. I think the whole problem with the reputation plastic has was caused by skimpy wax application by the manufacturer.


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## stoffel64 (Sep 23, 2010)

I have also a mix of foundation less and plastic frames (PF125 these are the black ones). I see the same behavior the bees start drawing comb on them very quickly.
I don't have an even mix, I more on the foundation less side.

I have not seen a lot of burr comb around them.

I am wondering about the plastic frames in regard of the use of an electric uncapping knife. My concern is that the knife is also melting the plastic.
Did anybody run into this problem?


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

I spray the foundation and Pierco frames with sugar syrup, like the directions say. Of 27 cases I have never had a problem.


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I'm not a fan of plastic anything but when I did use plastic frames, I never had a problem with a hot knife melting the plastic. I was worried about that myself but it turned out to be a non-issue.


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## raosmun (Sep 10, 2009)

I, rather my bees are not very happy with the all plastic (white) frames. If the bees use the plastic, at all, it is because there is nothing else to use. I have way less trouble with wood frmes and the plastic inserts or wax. A point; being flustrated with plastic frames, I cut the center out of a couple and put them in as foundationless and the bees pulled out perfect comb. Go figure? Also; I have been useing more and more foundationless frames, after figureing out they need to be started inbetween drawn frames. I can not attest to what the bees draw out first (not in the hives every day), but they seem to prefer the foundationless frames first. I have a neighbor beek that has experienced the same.


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## blueskybeesupply (Dec 11, 2007)

One drawback of plastic frames, is that the voids give hive beetles more places to hide. 

Also, we find that the bees more readily draw out black than white. We even use black in our honey supers.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I agree about the black frames. You can see if they've started drawing comb easier not to mention the eggs. I've been using the Mann Lake PF-125's 4.9 plastic black frames at $1.72 if you buy in bulk. (Free shipping over $100.) How does that compare with Pierco prices? I've heard good things about Pierco frames so I might want to try them. Anyone?


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

Charlie B said:


> I agree about the black frames. You can see if they've started drawing comb easier not to mention the eggs. I've been using the Mann Lake PF-125's 4.9 plastic black frames at $1.72 if you buy in bulk. (Free shipping over $100.) How does that compare with Pierco prices? I've heard good things about Pierco frames so I might want to try them. Anyone?


 I think the ears on the Piercos are tougher and slip less with the hive tool edge. I and the bees like the black better and the hives over the years seem to draw both ( black pierco and foundationless) about the same, as long as there is a flow on


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2011)

Has anyone had any experience with https://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=23_39&products_id=614. 
I bought some mann lake plastic foundation for my supers last year, didn't have any trouble with the bees drawing it out( I did spray them with sugar syrup as directed). I think I'll be replacing my deep frames now as well.


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## melliferal (Aug 30, 2010)

dr.buzz said:


> Has anyone had any experience with https://www.dadant.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=23_39&products_id=614.
> I bought some mann lake plastic foundation for my supers last year, didn't have any trouble with the bees drawing it out( I did spray them with sugar syrup as directed). I think I'll be replacing my deep frames now as well.


I've used Mann Lake's stuff...think it's called rite cell - in wooden frames since my first hive and I've never had issues with comb being drawn funny, or not being drawn at all, or anything like that.

I think in last year's catalog ML said they were starting to sell full plastic rite cell frames; I'm tempted to try a couple just for curiosity's sake. My biggest complaint about all-plastic frames is that they're so flimsy, they torque too much in propolis-heavy colonies and extractors when you try to manipulate them I think. The all-plastic rite cell stuff is supposed to be "more rigid", but don't all of them say that about their own brand?


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## wglord (Nov 23, 2009)

Dadant vs. Mann Lake vs Pierco - I have older Dadant and Pierco plastic frames and the Dadant's appear to be Chinese and cheap! Bad about breaking off ears and they flop around. The Piercos are superior. I had gone back to crimp wired but after a bunch of blow-outs extracting this year (with cross wires and careful speed control) I will go back to plastic. How about Duraguilt? Is anyone using it? I know you cant' recoat Duraguilt if the wax comes off the plastic. Has anyone compared Pierco to Mann Lake's plastic? i figure to be putting it into wooden frames. thanks


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## okbees (Nov 3, 2010)

I have used Mann Lake and Pierco, and the quality is good on both. The biggest reason I don't use Mann Lake any longer is that the plastic is made in China, and then Chinese wax is put on the foundation. I know that Pierco is made in America and has a 10 year warranty on the frames. I haven't had any issues with the ears breaking off my Pierco. I too use the Pierco foundation in wooden frames, and also use the plastic frames. I like the "feel" of the wood frames.....it is an age thing I guess...lol, so I have more of the wood frames with plastic foundation.


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## K.E.N. (May 5, 2011)

> Strange how bees act differently in different areas of the country.


Here in Co. at least in my hive they draw a full deep frame of foundationless in a week. In some of my hives I have plastic (Ritecell) and to get the bees to draw it I add wax and have to spray it down with syrup several times before they even start to draw (lots more work). Sometimes that doesn't work. I've had some plastic for more than 2 months in a hive that has been drawn on maybe 1/3 and then they don't touch it anymore. For me plastic sucks in Co.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I like plastic. My bees are a little balky. I tried the syrup spray, and for the life of me, cannot figure out how you guys get it to stick. My syrup just beads up and rolls off. And I'm still unconvinced there's enough syrup to make any difference, even with HBH added to it. I am under the assumption spraying syrup on the frames is coincidental to drawing them out.

My success with plastic comes with a strong hive, on a strong flow, and the addition of melted bees wax (previously discussed in this thread). Also, setting a frame between two brood frames will almost guarantee it to be drawn out. Adding the wax gives the bees the initial resources to accept the foundation and once they start, I have no problem of them finishing it out. More wax is the greatest trick.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

K.E.N. said:


> Here in Co. at least in my hive they draw a full deep frame of foundationless in a week. In some of my hives I have plastic (Ritecell) and to get the bees to draw it I add wax and have to spray it down with syrup several times before they even start to draw (lots more work). Sometimes that doesn't work. I've had some plastic for more than 2 months in a hive that has been drawn on maybe 1/3 and then they don't touch it anymore. For me plastic sucks in Co.


Exactly what I'm experiencing. I have two apiaries. One in SF which is sometimes cold and foggy in the summer, and one in Saratoga which is much warmer and dryer. Sometimes I'll take a struggling hive to Saratoga for a month to play "catch up". In both places, I'm having the same problems with plastic vs. foundationless. 

But here's the thing, I would have not noticed if I hadn't tried the foundationless to see the difference. A full deep in a week in Saratoga blew me away. Flows are going on both places by the way.


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