# Is There A Difference Between Domesticated And Feral Bees?



## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Thing is, in our farmed hives we prefer and therefore select for certain characteristics such as gentleness, high honey production, low swarming impulse, etc.

Whereas in a population of bees not managed by humans, the opposite could be an advantage, and ways to manage mites are critical as there is no beekeeper to take care of that for them.

But end of day, any domestically bred bee that escapes via a swarm can set up hive in a tree and do very well in all areas except for mite management, and any "feral" bee can be set up in a human managed hive and farmed as we do any other bee.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Thanks, Oldtimer. No arguments here.

Just curious whether with the advent of more sophisticated genetic mapping tools if we have learned more about the genetic makeup of feral colonies and whether they are in-fact as a group genetically-disparate from their managed counterparts. Might be very much location and bee-density specific.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Litsinger said:


> whether they are in-fact as a group genetically-disparate from their managed counterparts.











(PDF) Mitochondrial DNA Variation of Feral Honey Bees (Apis mellifera L.) from Utah (USA)


PDF | A study was conducted on the mitochondrial DNA genetic diversity of feral colonies and swarms of Apis mellifera from ten counties in Utah by... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net








> Ten African A lineage haplotypes were observed with two unique to Utah among A lineage haplotypes recorded in the US.


2 haplotypes found no were else in the US !!!


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## ankklackning (Dec 10, 2020)

I would think that according to the original question about differences, I wonder if you will have to divide that into 2 categories. One category for areas where africanized can live, and the other category for areas where they can't really penetrate into due to winters? 

People in South America say that you don't find the local bees anymore, only the africanized genetics. They are that dominant that its changed everything. So this is why I replied the way I did. 

I'm not implying every feral/wild colony is africanized however, but that will be strongly affected by if AHB are able to live in an area.


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## ankklackning (Dec 10, 2020)

So I looked at the link. Its very interesting and thank you for the article, regarding bee genetics in Utah.

I did have some points to say;

The data would be more useful if they actually spelled out what the haplogroups translate to in normal terms. Like when it classified stuff into western Europe and eastern Europe are they by chance actually meaning German/British Black Bee (Western Europe) genetics? And Eastern Europe as Carnica based genetics? Or... They don't spell this out and this is the key part that would make it make more sense. (They could have also meant Italian genetics by saying western europe however, but if they meant that why didn't they say southern europe instead?)

The article says, 'all 5 C haplogroup lineages' at one point. I'm curious how many various strains of genetics they have marked out for each of the european honey bees actually. But I doubt I'd ever actually be able to get such information, it would be fun to see. 

(Haplogroups A, C, M, O, etc)


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

MSL:

Thank you for your reply. I had forgotten about the Utah study. Speaking about forgetting, I recalled that Dr. Lopez-Uribe has been involved in two papers associated with the genetic make-up of both feral and managed colonies in North Carolina and Pennsylvania.


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## GaJohnny (Apr 22, 2021)

Litsinger said:


> On Bee-L recently, there was a discussion concerning the veracity of feral colonies in the US exhibiting a distinct genetic footprint from managed colonies. In response, Mr. Randy Oliver posted his findings, outlined in the following article:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are no bees currently living that are native to North America, so you can't really call any of them feral. I don't think bees have ever been domesticated because they still sting all the time and feel no attachment to us, so really they are all wild. Edit I did not understand what yall meant by feral, ignore the above.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Thanks, GaJohnny. The title of the post and the 'feral' versus 'domestic' monikers utilized in the opening post are actually borrowed from the Randy Oliver article, where he devotes considerable space defining both. I suppose the question could be best framed by 'non-managed' versus 'managed'.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

GaJohnny said:


> There are no bees currently living that are native to North America, so you can't really call any of them feral.........Edit I did not understand what yall meant by feral, ignore the above.


Well, then why do they call the escaped feral pigs (non-native to North America) - feral.
We got feral horses and feral cattle and feral cats - none of these are native in North America.
Escaped domestic animal that persists over few generations on its own is feral no matter where the escape takes place.

Feral <> wild by the dictionary definition.


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## GaJohnny (Apr 22, 2021)

GregV said:


> Well, then why do they call the escaped feral pigs (non-native to North America) - feral.
> We got feral horses and feral cattle and feral cats - none of these are native in North America.
> Escaped domestic animal that persists over few generations on its own is feral no matter where the escape takes place.
> 
> Feral <> wild by the dictionary definition.


I was wrong, thank you for correcting me.


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## jjayf (Aug 15, 2020)

Litsinger said:


> Is anyone aware of any more recent scholarship on the subject? The newest I can find is the 2012 Oldroyd study referred to in Randy's write-up.


I have been very interested in this subject as well. I think there is also a Columbia University Study with Seeley that did a genetic study and the feral colonies in Arnot forest were genetically distinct from local managed colonies. I think he found that the feral population was much more diverse and even included trace Scutelata genes. He also found that managed colonies near feral colonies were remaining genetically distinct. I'll see if I can find the presentation he gave.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

jjayf said:


> feral colonies in Arnot forest were genetically distinct from local managed colonies


they were, but what is over looked (but pointed out by the local bee inspector) is the local beekeeper they took samples form had recently requeend the one yard with queens form new supplier, and the other yard was a new yard, stocked with queens from this new suplyer
ie


> This was a new apiary established in April 2011 with 22 colonies. Each colony had been given a new queen purchased from Wooten’s Golden Queens, Palo Cedro, California. All 22 queens had mated in California in the spring of 2011. Apiary 2 was 5.2 km from the northeast boundary of the Arnot Forest. This apiary had been in existence since 2001 and contained 24 colonies. From time to time, some of the colonies were requeened using queens that were either purchased from various commercial queen producers or produced by the beekeeper using his own stock


in a commercial operation genetics aren't always "static"... one year they may be running local stock, another CA Italians, another Carnys or VSH.


The AF bees were 50% Italian, 50% Carny. The managed bees were 80/90% carny


> Arnot Forest that yielded a clear result exhibited an even distribution of the C1 (ligustica ) and C2 (carnica ) haplotypes (50 % C1 and 50 % C2); however, the 10 colonies in both apiary 1 and apiary 2 exhibited mainly the C2 (carnica ) haplotype (90 and 80 % C2, respectively).


this is a red flag as Wooten’s Golden Queens is a commercial Italian bee producer, or maybe just showing clearly the failings of Mitochondrial DNA to give us anything meaningful ?

If the feral bees were not escaped swarms form commercial hives, we would expect to see AMM Mitochondrial DNA

They quite litery went to a new apiary that had just be set up with CA queens.... took samples and said "see the feral are different" .... about the same effect as driving to another new apiary just stocked with Russian queens and saying they are different not good science, and no surprises in the results given the methods

now one great thing we have is the 1970s museum samples Museum samples reveal rapid evolution by wild honey bees exposed to a novel parasite showing a similar 50/50 mix

that is cause for pause as well, as (as illustrated in the randy O article ) Italians make up 4% of the feral pop, and in the 70s AMM was the domaint feral...


> *Practical food for thought: I find it of special interest that despite the fact that the C1 line (“yellow” Italian [40]) accounts for a third of the mitotypes in managed bees, that it does not appear to persist in the wild (only 4% of ferals carry it). Could it be that we tend to select for stock that lacks fitness under natural selective pressure?*


Maby the clear cutting of NY drove AMM out threw habitat loss (by 1890 80% of the land was cut and cleared) and by the time old growth came back with its holes to nesting the Itilians were what were swarming form managed hives... either way it begs the question, why did AMM, the orongial feral go extencint in the AF, and get replaced, and why is the rair feral c-1 lines so prevalent in the AF while the carnys are right in line % wize with outher studyed feral pops

all and all the statement


> We found substantial genetic differences between the colonies in the Arnot Forest colonies and the colonies in both apiaries nearby. This shows that there has been little genetic input from the managed colonies outside the Arnot Forest to the wild colonies inside the Arnot Forest


dosen't hold water as they are only comparing the genetics of one commercial queen rearer to Wooten’s Golden Queens to the currant feral pop, to make the statement of "little gentnic imput" we would have to know the genetics of managed hives in the area in the 90s when varroa (all but) wiped out the feral lines

I really liked seeley at 1st, but the deeper you go in to his work, the more holes you find.. In a way its a lot like BIP.... ya there is a lot of problems with the work, but its the best we have, be mindful crunching the data


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Feral and commercial are distinct from each other according to Delaney's research:


Genetic diversity of honey bee populations in the United States: Comparative analysis of commercial breeding populations through time


Same results:








Genetic Analysis of Commercial Honey Bees (Hymenoptera...


NATHAN M. SCHIFF AND WALTER S. SHEPPARD(1) Bee Research Laboratory, Beltsville Agricultural Research Center-East, USDA-ARS, Building 476, Beltsville, MD 20705 J. Econ. Entomol. 88(5): 1216 - 1220 (1995) ABSTRACT Approximately 3.2 million honey bee colonies are maintained by beekeepers in...




www.beesource.com





More reading:








Mitochondrial DNA Diversity of Honey Bees (Apis mellifera) from Unmanaged Colonies and Swarms in the United States | Semantic Scholar


The detection of genetically distinct maternal lineages of unmanaged honey bees suggests that these haplotypes may have existed outside the managed honey bee population for a long period. To study the genetic diversity of honey bees (Apis mellifera L.) from unmanaged colonies in the United...




www.semanticscholar.org












[PDF] Genetic diversity of wild and managed honey bees (Apis mellifera) in Southwestern Pennsylvania, and prevalence of the microsporidian gut pathogens Nosema ceranae and N. apis | Semantic Scholar


It is shown that wild honey bee colonies can represent old lineages despite being susceptible to Nosema, and there were no differences in N. ceranae or N. apis levels between wild and managed colonies. The populations of wild honey bee (Apis mellifera) colonies in the USA were decimated after...




www.semanticscholar.org


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

Michael:

Thank you for your post. Helpful information. While the last two publications were locked behind a paywall, I thought the Schiff and Sheppard study was particularly interesting.

I suppose the take-away from it is:

_Two mtDNA haplotypes were detected in the 142 breeder queen colonies analyzed. Six colonies from 3 of the apiaries had the haplotype associated with *A. m. mellifera* or *A. m. iberica* Goetze (Smith et al. 1991). These 3 apiaries produced a total of 50,000 marketable queens and, assuming that all breeder queens within an apiary produced an equal proportion of the total queens sold, the 6 *A. m. mellifera* haplotypes produced 14,000 (3%) of the queens sold by the 22 apiaries. The remaining 136 breeder queens all had mtDNA haplotypes associated with *A. m. carnica* and *A. m. ligustica* (Table 1.) and accounted for 433,900 (97%) of the total queens sold. This is significantly different (X2=63.1, P<0.001) than the feral population of the southern United States, where 36.7% of 692 feral colonies had the *A. m. mellifera*/iberica haplotype (Schiff et al. 1994). The lack of *A. m. mellifera* haplotypes in the commercial population is indicative of restricted gene flow between feral and commercial populations._

Thank you again for your feedback. I sincerely appreciate it.

Russ


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Utah would have been settled by Mormons, somewhat early, and not logged as heavy, so there may be some trace left for the 16 and 1700 there, to explain the 2 holotypes.

Agree MSL the trees being logged would either force the bees out or into Barn walls, definitely had an impact.

I read somewhere the Applications have a "unique" feral race that in time may be another distinct race. Not sure where I read it. As well it was never completely logged off.

there guys may have a good idea





we all place a couple may help.

GG


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## ankklackning (Dec 10, 2020)

Genetics is very fun to study with bees. Thanks for the above information to all.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

I used to read with great interest all the hoopla about the Arnot Forest bees. Then at Apimondia I listened to a researcher from Europe that was poo-pooing all that hype. His argument, a dozen colonies does not a population make, and especially a dozen colonies within flight distance of larger commercial apiaries. So I had to go check this out, I was shocked at what I found.

The 'Arnot Forest' is hardly a 'forest'. It's 4200 acres, heck we have farms around here larger than that. When I first read about the mythical forest, I envisioned something like what we would consider a 'forest' in our area, hundreds of miles of nothing but trees.

This map shows the bee trees, all 8 of them. Huh ? 8 colonies ? They have more feeding stations than bee trees. Not a single one of those colonies is more than flight distance from civilization and managed colonies.











I think all the folks falling for the hoopla about Arnot Forest bees are the victim of reporting of very bad 'science'. With all those feeding stations, the bees in those trees may as well be managed colonies.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Grozzie,
As well the forest had been cut.
The "small" bee cavities are the norm there, as they are the only choice.
There was also verbiage about the "new size" of bee nests, while little mention of the "options"

Interesting study, just good enough to get funded IMO.

A same ish study in the Pacific Northwest with 1/2 a stae size area would be better data , likely never happen. Or the Applications. then there is room and Options.

GG


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## jjayf (Aug 15, 2020)

To be fair, to Seeley have you read his actual books?

At no time does he try to hide the size of the forest the location or the goals of his work. He comes across to me in his writing as very modest , humble and restrained in his findings and conclusions.

Seeley did allot if not all the original research in the 70's on how bees live in the wild at the time there may have been some cultural / intitutional knowledge from woodsmen, bee hunters , loggers etc but he was the first one to go out and do the research in a disciplined manner and publish the studies on wild colony size, populations density, swarming behavior etc. all to be critically read and peer reviewed. In those original studies the he didn't hide the size of the Arnot forest and in every one of his studies he describes its size, so anyone that misses that fact shouldn't blame Seeley. The subsequent studies in the Arnot forest were based on the fact that he did the very same studies in the same forest before Varroa and he could directly compare any changes, to me that IS a bid deal, there is nowhere else in the world we have that opportunity.
To Gray Gooses point, I don't remember him discussing a "new size" just that bees in the wild live in smaller nests than managed colonies. IF he did come to the conclusion that there is a "new size" bee nest is it because he is comparing the size of the nests that he found in the SAME forest in the 70's? Are you saying it had been clearcut since then?

But besides that I think the actual point he made was that the small colony size forced the bees to swarm more often which provided brood breaks and kept varroa numbers down.

The studies that he did that showed the preferred size of cavities by bee swarms comes from a separate set of studies of his on swarm behavior , where they built the swarm boxes...completely independent on what is actually available in an any particular forest.

In his studies he does pose the question are the bees in the Arnot forest just swarms from local managed colonies , that is why he did the genetic studies, he came to a certain conclusion and people have pointed out its flaws. BUT he found that the bees in the forest were genetically distinct from all the managed bees around the forest .. newly requeened, brand new apiaries or not ... that is what he found.

Those feeding stations are not to feed the bees , its to catch the bees, they are there for a few hours or days at a time very rarely to conduct genetics studies or line bees to find their nests.

His main conclusion was that bees are still living in the wild in North America which was against the assumptions of himself and many people. This had not been studied at the time (post varroa) , and anecdotally this has been substantiated over and over again, as well as many other supporting studies have been done, but he was the first to actually go out an do it, anywhere, at all !...and then there are all these people that come decades later to question his work? Thats like a modern Drag Racer in a 2021 mustang talking trash out some dude in a hot rod 32 ford in the racing 1940's ..he was running a flathead...whats wrong with him? hadn't they heard of overhead cams?...the mustang wouldn't even exist without the 32 ford.... ..Hell I know of a few bee trees myself and have seen HB deep on the Olympia National Park far far from civilization.... so yes I think his conclusion is solid... bees are living in the wild, unmanaged in North America.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

jjayf said:


> To be fair, to Seeley have you read his actual books?
> 
> At no time does he try to hide the size of the forest the location or the goals of his work. He comes across to me in his writing as very modest , humble and restrained in his findings and conclusions.
> 
> ...


Jason,

Mostly I agree, good study, interesting findings, and A for effort.
However:
4200 acre Arnot forest in NOT a Wild unmanaged forest. and yes it had been clear cut , do not know when but no very large trees exist there. Maybe to Seeley 4200 acres is a "forest" IMO 100 Square miles is a better example of unmanaged forest if it has the old growth trees like the 3 and 4 foot diameter ones. Shoot my hunting property and the couple neighbors is 1/4 that size a large unmanaged forest it is not.

IMO if managed bees are in a 10 mile crow flys distance from the "Unmanaged test area, it somewhat mitigates the findings. there would have to be swarms moving in. Again I offered the *Appalachian Mountains* as an example of a better place.

I also agree that "wild/feral" bees will tend to be different than domestic, heck some of the so called domestic bees I cannot get thru winter by me, Yes I am sure that is my fault but I digress. 

With the so called Island study of swarm box preference and this Arnot study, IMO any conclusions drawn are at best opinions, the studies themselves have numerous "flaws/issues/constants" that call into question the results that folk seem to take a gospel.

Again great Seely did some work to better understand bees, Likely the funds he had allowed a "smallish" study, I get that.
But if one really looks at the details, the constants and the facts, they do not really prove anything.

As well I think more studys need be done, but someone needs to pony up the $$,, who really has skin in the game of what do the wild bees do? Not many here care, not to the tune of 100s of dollars. We can debate it but the "science" here is not as scientific as I would need to really buy into the whole list of "findings" yes it helps to scope the next studies, and many questions are still unanswered.

Like you car example.
The wild bees of the 30s are different than the wild bees of 2021, so extrapolation is at best a assumption.

Again this mostly a discussion of domesticated stock, and what will it do when let out.
Great example is the Africanized stock it seemed to thrive in its space. 

Hopefully we have some one with interest than can find deep pockets and has a conscience to do more and better studies. 
with the differences in the keeper make up, it will be a while before we get to a consensus of what to even study.
the commercials want a cheap effective Mite treatment.
the sideliners want a good dependable TF bee stock.
the newbies want to know what is the best smoker fuel.

all on the same page we Ar-not

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

let me try this a different way.
A single colony is know to forage up to 3 miles 5 in a dearth.
area is known to be Pi R squared
so we have 3.14159 X 3 squared or a touch over 28 square miles ( for the 3 mile Radius)

28 X 640 Acres per square mile... is 17,900 acres
so a single colony's forage area is over 4 times the size of the "Arnot forest"

so in reality 75% of the bees in the Arnot forest forage area and range is outside of the so called forest. As well any bees within 3 miles of the Arnot forest also forage in the trees with the locals. heck with out the AG around the so called forest the bees would starve.

the 5 mile example is even more telling at 25 X Pi or 50,000 acres.

so IMO 4 bee trees like a dice face found in 200,000 acres, some of which is old growth, would be a study.
4200 acres.... large hunting property.... small ranch....

A better title for the Arnot forest study, would be "8 colony study in natural a woodland setting" 

just wanting some context to be present.

GG


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## jjayf (Aug 15, 2020)

GG I am enjoying our discussion..

"AG around the so called forest the bees would starve...." I think that is true in many places ..AG and plain old neighborhoods with gardens and fruit trees all abundantly watered. So many people are surprised when "city bees" produce more honey than "country bees"... 

Thats also why there has never been and will never be a large unmanaged population in the Fir "farms" of the PNW of WA and BC... bees just starve in many parts of the cascades.

I get it, and ideal place to study "wild bees" and how they deal with varroa would be more isolated...( I still think the Olympic Peninsula near me would be a good choice, and some of my stock is from Olympic Wilderness Apiary who stock is hybrids from the feral Caucasians he has obtained from cut outs he found out in the forests of the Peninsula)

Are Seeleys conclusions so baseless? what is actually more representative of feral bees in the U.S.? a park , or river with bee trees (BTW the area around the Columbia River as well as the Tualatin and Willamite near me are densely populated with bee trees) that are unmanaged and overwinter regularly ? (I know the bee trees around me are overwintering because they are occupied in February and May, I check on them in the summer as well and they are humming... so if they are dying out and being repopulated with swarms I haven't been able to figure out when)

Or is some extremely isolated place (rare in the U.S). a better representation of feral bees? I think you could argue that the bee trees I know of along the Columbia River are more relevant to surviving unmanaged bees than colonies that are completely isolated in the Olympic National Forest.( also which exist)

Which conclusions of Sealey are so controversial?

That bees are surviving throughout the country unmanaged ?
That they prefer a cavity between the size of a Langstroth deep / plus a medium?
That bees get more insulation from bee trees than our boxes and that benefits the colony?
Frequent swarming provides varroa control ?

What do we disagree with?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

jjayf said:


> GG I am enjoying our discussion..
> 
> "AG around the so called forest the bees would starve...." I think that is true in many places ..AG and plain old neighborhoods with gardens and fruit trees all abundantly watered. So many people are surprised when "city bees" produce more honey than "country bees"...
> 
> ...


Jason, 
That bees are surviving throughout the country unmanaged ? agree
That they prefer a cavity between the size of a Langstroth deep / plus a medium? not sure i can agree, this is yet to be "proven" I trap at 60 liters, But I am looking for the big prime swarms.
That bees get more insulation from bee trees than our boxes and that benefits the colony? also agree and I have now started using insulated hives, as a mimic
Frequent swarming provides varroa control ? not sure This is working, the swarms I have caught with Varroa, all die, so if the bees left with most of the Varroa then maybe it helps but IMO swarming is not the majic, maybe a brood break that comes with swarming helps, some of my hives take a break on their own,

mostly disagree that a the 4200 acre study carries any weight, IMO take 10- 5000 acre places and they would all differ, so the inference of this "the data from such a small test" is misleading. As to the island study to set the gospel of 40 liters, the swarms were "created" at a 1/2 or 1 pound, and the first choice of the Chimney was "blocked" was an island of bushes. As I recall IE no trees. so the "constants" created swarm, small swarm, blocked first choice, non treed habitat, IMO make the data less than gospel.. again good ideas, good effort, seemed under funded or under "real life" to me. If I ever end up on a treeless island where swarms are created I will certainly use the 40 L box, or a fake chimney.  However I am in the woods, with homes and barns and such so different environment.

.( I still think the Olympic Peninsula near me would be a good choice, and some of my stock is from Olympic Wilderness Apiary who stock is hybrids from the feral Caucasians he has obtained from cut outs he found out in the forests of the Peninsula) So I looked at the Olympic stock from Wilderness Apiary. Do you have any of those queens? Care to offer feedback? I was interested in them as "feral stock" which they seem to suggest in the web site.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> So I looked at the Olympic stock from Wilderness Apiary. Do you have any of those queens? Care to offer feedback? I was interested in them as "feral stock" which they seem to suggest in the web site.


My survivor VHS queen is originating from the Olympic stock.
She was the lone survivor for the 2020/2021 winter as I reported.
Positive feedback from me.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> My survivor VHS queen is originating from the Olympic stock.
> She was the lone survivor for the 2020/2021 winter as I reported.
> Positive feedback from me.


hmm
i may need to order couple
thanks
GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> hmm
> i may need to order couple
> thanks
> GG


I got from here, locally for me:








Queen Bees | Lloyd Street Bees | Wisconsin


Lloyd Street Bees is a proud provider of local honey bee nucs, queens and beekeeping courses. We offer queen bees, breeder queens, nucs, and classes to ensure your successful beekeeping journey. Located in the Washington Heights neighborhood of Milwaukee, Wisconsin.




www.lloydstbees.com





My interpretation of a Olympic bee sample:


> #2 - some mongrel with prevailing Carnica and almost equal Ligustica.
> There is some indication of Sossimai, so the Russian influence is there but not as strong as in the #1.
> I say these are some open-mated US-based mutts whatever they are.
> Possibly a Russian lineage present few iterations back that has been diluted by Ligustica/Carnica via open-mating.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Deleted.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jjayf said:


> .( I still think the Olympic Peninsula near me would be a good choice, and some of my stock is from Olympic Wilderness Apiary who stock is hybrids from the *feral Caucasians* he has obtained from cut outs he found out in the forests of the Peninsula)


I ran a morpho-sample on some bees originating from the "Olympic Wilderness Apiary".
No indication of the Caucasians.

Granted this is NOT a genetics testing, but still, the Caucasians are very distinct and significant presence of them should show. 
I doubt you have "feral Caucasians" flying in the forests of the Peninsula. 
Most likely Carni/Italian-leaning mutts. 
Still feral, not arguing there..


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## ankklackning (Dec 10, 2020)

Wow. Thanks for the data. Love it.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ankklackning said:


> Wow. Thanks for the data. Love it.


Granted, I only had access to two samples.
But at least I have some numbers, kinda/sorta.
I also looked at some other samples that, indeed, show significant Caucasian influence - they do stick out.

Anyway, speaking of the bee make ups.... Just all bunch of mutts all over.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

jjayf said:


> ... what is actually more representative of feral bees in the U.S.?


jjayf:

I appreciate your thoughtful feedback and I concur we want to be careful to consider these studies in their proper perspective and context. I imagine there are few areas in the continental US that can be considered truly isolated- and the main question in my mind is not whether there is overlap between feral and domesticated stock in most locales (which seems likely), but rather whether there is a genetic difference between these two populations?

The research I have read (most of which is now posted in this thread), seems to suggest there generally is a genetic difference, but that this difference might be relatively modest in some (or possibly most) areas- particularly those most impacted by sustained bee importation.


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## Deens Bees (Feb 11, 2021)

I know nothing of the genetics but I started 6 years ago with bees from a managed hive. Second year I put my money in swarm traps and atv fuel hunting for "feral" bees in tree cavities. I have three trees that cast swarms almost every spring and I can tell you my stock has much smaller workers that seem to be much more responsive to changes in the flow and weather. This means less extra honey but also much less attention needed on my part. I killed that first colony the second winter by managing them just like I did the tree bees so, I much prefer the unmanaged bees whether you can call them feral or not.


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## gator75 (Apr 21, 2021)

Deens Bees said:


> I know nothing of the genetics but I started 6 years ago with bees from a managed hive. Second year I put my money in swarm traps and atv fuel hunting for "feral" bees in tree cavities. I have three trees that cast swarms almost every spring and I can tell you my stock has much smaller workers that seem to be much more responsive to changes in the flow and weather. This means less extra honey but also much less attention needed on my part. I killed that first colony the second winter by managing them just like I did the tree bees so, I much prefer the unmanaged bees whether you can call them feral or not.


I'm very new to beekeeping. 4 months to be exact. But I feel your post is spot on. I bought one nuc in March and decided I wanted more. But I didn't want to pay for them and I wanted to catch my own (I'm an avid hunter..). I got a swarm from a trailer in the woods at my camp. I can really tell a difference between the bees from the woods and the bees from the nuc. They seem much smaller, tougher and more temperamental. I did an alcohol wash on nurse bees on open brood Monday. Zero mites. I plan to split and just keep these moving forward on foundationless frames. I do understand these could have come from an established hive, but they appear to be so different from my others. I also agree they will probably produce less honey.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

The issues of "less honey" is pretty much compensated by having a few more hives and also spending less time tending to them.
Time is honey.
A great option to have.


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## jjayf (Aug 15, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> .( I still think the Olympic Peninsula near me would be a good choice, and some of my stock is from Olympic Wilderness Apiary who stock is hybrids from the feral Caucasians he has obtained from cut outs he found out in the forests of the Peninsula) So I looked at the Olympic stock from Wilderness Apiary. Do you have any of those queens? Care to offer feedback? I was interested in them as "feral stock" which they seem to suggest in the web site.
> 
> GG


GG
Sorry, I haven't signed in in a while but to answer your question....Yes I have Queens that are daughters of OWA Breeder queens, and I have a friend that gets breeder queens from them regularly who has 90% survival rates in his apiary. The bees are very mite tolerant and very sensitive to the environment. Very Hardy Bees. They brood down in a dearth overwinter in small clusters and propolize EVERYTHING.
Jason


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## jjayf (Aug 15, 2020)

GregV said:


> Granted, I only had access to two samples.
> But at least I have some numbers, kinda/sorta.
> I also looked at some other samples that, indeed, show significant Caucasian influence - they do stick out.
> 
> Anyway, speaking of the bee make ups.... Just all bunch of mutts all over.


Agreed...Mutts all over... The "Feral Caucasians" is a paraphrase quote from Dan at OWA...I guess some locals here say that a lot of the bees originally brought out to PNW were Caucasian. I don't know I wasn't there... but I will say they are very dark and propolize heavily , and coincidentally another apiary (Laurie Miller, I have two hives with her queens) out here that advertises local feral genetics ( her bees are great also) are also black and propalize heavily... but who knows. I did get a nuc of Caucasians this last year...they were absolute DUDS, diseased and weak.

All my bees at this point are captured swarms that flew into my yard, OWA open mated daughters or Laurie Millers bees and some of her open mated daughters. At this point I figure I'll just get queens from OWA or Laurie once in a while so my bees don't get too heavily influenced by all the neighbors running Italian packages.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

One thing that strikes me about the discussion of "feral" vs "domesticated" is that it may not just be the house they live in. Someone mentioned feral pigs but (I think) missed the more significant example. Feral pigs will develop receding/sloped heads, longer tusks, and more aggressive behavior. So the genetics are the same, even the same pig after a number of years after being set wild (or feral) will begin to develop these characteristics. 

So, I wonder if the same can be true here? By the very act of providing a home and care, do we change the bees?


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## jjayf (Aug 15, 2020)

LBussy said:


> One thing that strikes me about the discussion of "feral" vs "domesticated" is that it may not just be the house they live in. Someone mentioned feral pigs but (I think) missed the more significant example. Feral pigs will develop receding/sloped heads, longer tusks, and more aggressive behavior. So the genetics are the same, even the same pig after a number of years after being set wild (or feral) will begin to develop these characteristics.
> 
> So, I wonder if the same can be true here? By the very act of providing a home and care, do we change the bees?


Maybe we should ask those crazies in the southwest , South America, Mexico , and even Africa that manage Africanized bees


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

jjayf said:


> Maybe we should ask those crazies in the southwest , South America, Mexico , and even Africa that manage Africanized bees


I think you misunderstand me - I'm just pointing out that the act of bees being on their own may change them somehow even if they possess the same genes as the one in the apiary down the street.


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## jjayf (Aug 15, 2020)

LBussy said:


> I think you misunderstand me - I'm just pointing out that the act of bees being on their own may change them somehow even if they possess the same genes as the one in the apiary down the street.


I’m just joking around a bit, Epigenetics is well known phenomenon, Pigs are a great example. I’m not convinced bees are as extreme but I’m wrong all the time !


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

That’s the term I was looking for!


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

LBussy said:


> So the genetics are the same, even the same pig after a number of years after being set wild (or feral) will begin to develop these characteristics.


LBussy:

In my humble opinion you are asking the right questions and they touch on the whole genotype/phenotype nexus- how two populations can have a similar genetic make-up but the expression of those genetics is different based on the environment and associated selection pressures placed upon it.


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## sparkyApis (Apr 9, 2021)

Litsinger said:


> the whole genotype/phenotype nexus


That is the hard thing to get a handle on in a breeding program, especially in the context of the the majority of beekeepers operations. The G x E interaction can cause very different behaviors, survivability or productivity with the same genetics as it responds to different environments. Epigenetics is not necessarily a part of this. The points raised about Prof Seeley's work are valid, the area is small, the opportunity for outside genetics to influence the population is high and he has never tried to hide that. Like most of us he works with what is available, he reports his findings without exaggerated claims. We have to make judgements on their applicability. I watched a talk he gave to a British bee group where he analysed samples of the forest populations before and after varroa and found, from memory, around 280 different alleles between the two time periods. Are these the result of genetic drift in the population or introduction from outside. I have no idea although I did find it interesting that many of the changes were in genes involved with reproduction and development, that is the stages affected by the mite. It is at least plausible that some of these changes were the result of the new selection pressure acting on the wild population. 

In another piece of work he demonstrated that the ability of colonies to control mite infestation was strongly impacted by the distance between colonies. A hive which could survive in isolation was more likely to be overwhelmed if placed in close proximity to another.

The point to this is that, even if wild hives are developing resistance alleles which are being selected for by the varroa, there is no guarantee that these populations will be of any use in a beekeeping situation. The strategies used by the wild populations may be rendered ineffective by the radical change in environment. Bringing feral swarms into production may not help and allowing populations, selected to perform in production, to flood wild populations with drones may not be doing either population a favour.

Now that is a perhaps a little bleak but it seems that the questions have to be asked, the data has to be gathered.

Sel.


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## Litsinger (Jun 14, 2018)

sparkyApis said:


> The point to this is that, even if wild hives are developing resistance alleles which are being selected for by the varroa, there is no guarantee that these populations will be of any use in a beekeeping situation. The strategies used by the wild populations may be rendered ineffective by the radical change in environment. Bringing feral swarms into production may not help and allowing populations, selected to perform in production, to flood wild populations with drones may not be doing either population a favour.


Nice write-up, sparkyApis. Good points.


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## jjayf (Aug 15, 2020)

Has any of you folks studied what went on in Puerto Rico with their treatment free situation and selecting for gentle Scutelata?...(not to open a whole new can of worms)


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

jjayf said:


> Has any of you folks studied what went on in Puerto Rico with their treatment free situation and selecting for gentle Scutelata?...(not to open a whole new can of worms)











Puerto Rico’s African Honey Bees ..............


.............Have Been Selected To Be Gentle, And Are Already Varroa Resistant. https://www.beeculture.com/catch-buzz-puerto-ricos-african-honey-bees-selected-gentle-already-varroa-resistant/ Another overlooked story, AFAIK. Anyone from Puerto Rico sells queens?




www.beesource.com


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