# Hogan style trapout



## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

The queen will normally come into your trap within 24 to 36 hours to investigate the unsealed brood. She will detect the unsealed brood and come to investigate, thinking there is another queen in the hive. When she finds no other queen, she will normally stay in the box for a day or so perhaps longer if you have some cells for her to lay in, thereby establishing her dominance over the frames in the hive. In the absence of drawn combs, your bees may very well use the trap for honey stores, rather than another brood chamber.

If the queen does not come into the trap and lay eggs, it normally means that the trap if too far from the brood nest for her to come out and investigate, OR, it could mean that she still has lots of room in her current brood nest and does not wish to split her brood nest, even if there is another queen way out there somewhere.

I would probably take the frames from the trap as soon as I had three pounds plus of bees, put a new queen with it, and start a new hive. Then repeat the process of putting unsealed brood in the trap and try to lure her out a second time. See if you can find a couple of frames of drawn brood comb to put into the trap, so the queen will have some place to lay, when she comes into the trap. Contact a local bee club and see if you can help you get a couple frames drawn comb.

Houses are the most difficult to get the queen, trees are normally the easiest.

If I can help you individually, contact me at [email protected] and I will try to help you. If your questions are general in nature, others might benefit if you post it here, 

Good Luck.

cchoganjr


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## imeasystreet (Apr 3, 2012)

Thanks for the help.

The transition is approximately 2ft from the old entrance to the nuc so that may be too much distance from the brood nest. At this point that arrangement can't be changed. 

There are no other beekeepers near here and I only have one hive that is in the process of replacing the queen so drawn comb and frames with brood are a problem. I do have 2 frames of really old open comb that I was using for bait in swarm traps, could I use them for open comb for the queen to lay in? 

Is it possible to put a frame of brood in the trapout nuc to lure bees into the nuc and then remove bees and that brood frame in a day or two so that the brood frame can also be used for the bees to make their own queen?

Can I remove frames with bees from the trapout nuc and put them into a different nuc with a screen over the entrance and quickly transfer them a few miles away and remove the entrance screen?

How can I estimate 3 pounds of bees? Three frames well covered with bees?

I had hoped to eliminate or at least reduce the size of the colony in the house with trapouts. Can I assume that at some point this operation will become a cutout situation?


g


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## Desert Viking Ranch (Mar 1, 2011)

I am considering doing a Hogan style trap out on a tree about 25 or 30 feet up soon (its going to be a logistical nightmare - should be fun). My intent is to use the "survivor colony" to increase my numbers, but not taking the queen. This seems to be the best use of the Hogan trap out out IMO. Have her lay eggs to keep her genetics and take back several pounds of bees as well.

However, if someone was to use this method to trap out a colony from a house such as the OP, and the queen was captured, what is to stop the remaining colony from making their own emergency queen cells and continuing the colony life cycle? Surely they will have some 1-3 day old eggs somewhere that they will immediately try to convert, right?


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## imeasystreet (Apr 3, 2012)

I had considered that possibility and figured it was a win/win situation. Just keep trapping new colonies.


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## Desert Viking Ranch (Mar 1, 2011)

imeasystreet said:


> I had considered that possibility and figured it was a win/win situation. Just keep trapping new colonies.


I completely agree! 

I guess what I was getting at was, is there a way to use the Hogan trap out to remove a colony if the home owner wanted the bees gone, or are we talking about a cut-out at that point?


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Desert Viking Ranch. It is almost certain that they will try, ( and likely succeed) in making themselves a queen. The queen they make will likely have similiar, (not exactly the same) genetics as the one you remove. (The difference will be in the drones which bred the queen you caught, and the one that is made.)

Keep in mind as you remove bees from the house, there will be fewer and fewer bees in the house to tend the brood, no new nectar is being brought in, so no new honey, no new pollen is being brought in to load cells for new brood. Assuming it takes 18 to 20 days for the new queens to emerge, (make the queen cell and incubate the queens), they will have lost all the bees that came out in those 18 days, which will be a very large percentage of them. The new queens they made, if she comes out, cannot get back in and by this time there are no more viable eggs for them to make a queen. As the number of bees in the house dwindles, the colony will not be able to sustain itself and the colony will die. Also keep in mind that as the colony dwindles, it becomes more vulnerable to small hive beetle attack and wax moth larve in the house.

Trapping to take starts IS the best use of the trap. Just don't over trap and kill the colony as I explained above. If you trap to eliinate the colony, Hogan Method, or Screen Cone Method, remember you still have all that old comb, pollen, nectar, in the walls of the house. It really should be removed. If not, there is the possibility for either a mess, OR another swarm move into the house after you quit trapping.


imeasystreet... Yes, if you put the unsealed brood in, and then remove it before it is capped, it is possible for them to use that frame to make themselves a new queen. However, unless they made a queen cell and the queen from the parent hive layed in it, the queen they make will have the genetics of the hive that you took the unsealed brood from.

I almost always move frames from the trap, and there is no hurry to open the screened entrance, and so you can move them as far as you like.

It is generally accepted that three frames, very well covered with bees will give you approximately three pounds. Not a bad idea to get 3 1/2 to 4 frames covered with bees.

To do a proper job, any trapout that eliminates the colony will unltimately need a cut out performed. The exception is those places where it doesn't matter, (trees, combine heads, milk cans, water tanks, old houses or sheds, etc, etc.)

Hope this has been helpful, if not let me know, and I will try to explain futher.

cchoganjr


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## Ben Franklin (May 3, 2011)

I am doing a trap out in a Willow tree. I have already captured more then 4 pounds of bees and gave them a queen. 
The problem I have right now is that the tree being rough and miss shaped with heavy bark, it that the bees have found several places to escape the tree and the trap. My only option is to screen around the hole in the tree, staple it EVERYWHERE, and put the trap back up. One other note, the trap being at the bottom of the tree hive, gets filled with the trash from the tree and hive. I will post results latter.


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## imeasystreet (Apr 3, 2012)

Ben I know what you mean. It took 4 tubes of silicon caulk to get all the holes sealed on my trapout.

g


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## Ben Franklin (May 3, 2011)

imeasystreet said:


> Ben I know what you mean. It took 4 tubes of silicon caulk to get all the holes sealed on my trapout.
> 
> g


 I was considering using Great Stuff (foam) but I figured the fumes would not be good for the bees. I will post a picture of my trap out. I emailed Mr Hogan and he was wonderful with advise. I used PVC pipe and started the entrance to the hive with a flange that is used for a toilet. Then a reducer to the hive box. I cut different lenghts of pipe so I could make a better fit. The Flange is attached to a piece of plywood. I screwed it onto the tree.

BTW I want to Thanks Mr Hogan for his assistance and advice. I also wish to Thank him for sharing this with others, while companies make money on his design.


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