# Breeding for a balance between production and nature



## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

rrussell6870 said:


> Well it really comes down to definition... the intent is not to breed out swarming entirely on all strains, but rather the select from colonies that swarm only under the perfect conditions, at the right time for the climate and population, and only once per year.


This makes the most sense to me and probably for the long term survival of bees. Humans are greedy and seem to forget about the traits that are most important to the bees survival instead selecting for only traits that are good for them. There is a certain balance we must mantain otherwise we may one day end up with bees that are like sheep or chickens. What's good for us isn't necessarily whats best for the bees or any other species for that matter. The native americans understood the delicate balance that exists in nature, maybe it's time we start to think that way too.


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

David LaFerney said:


> Maybe you're right. Since European honey bees aren't native to North America, and they no doubt displace all kinds of indigenous pollinators out of their natural environmental niche maybe we should send them all back to the forests of Europe to live in trees. Keeping exotic species like this for profit or amusement is just greedy and disrespectful of nature. We should all be ashamed.
> 
> I kid. I'm all for sustainability and respect for nature when it's possible. The point is (In my opinion) that the genie is out of the bottle as far as living in respectful harmony with nature, we've got billions of people to feed and mortgages to pay - sadly hunting and gathering is never going to get it done again.
> 
> I'll desist - this is far off topic. Sorry.


I'm not saying to retrace the past, but going forward shouldn't we attempt to have a balance between all things and not just go after the things that work best for humans. Maybe its not possible to have a top producing sheep and also have it do well with wolves in the area. We probably cannot go back and fix something like that. Shoot I don't even know what animal a sheep came from, lol. However, maybe we can breed a bee that fits both commercial needs and natural needs without making it totally reliant on us for survival. My hope is we can do things in a more responsible way, a way that benefits all things not just humans. I fear our current path is one that will send us back to hunting and gathering or maybe worse, ie extinct, lol.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

Hmmmmm...

I'm pondering this statement that we have, or can, "breed the swarming out of them."

I understand the logic, but I'm still a little leery that we can do this. Instincts run deep. Yes, we've pretty much domesticated the intelligence right out of wild turkeys, but we have't been able to breed the feathers out of them to make for a better butchering process. Losing the intelligence was a cost offset by the gain of large breasts (and I hope no one takes that statement the wrong way!)

I've wondered, many times, why the feral bees have been able to survive, only to be met with experts who continue to tell me there are no feral bees. I'm not sure about that statement either as I've witnessed feral colonies that survived...only to be told that new swarms must have moved in. 

Randy Oliver has an interesting thought on epigenetics, genetic switches that are turned on/off by different environmental ques. Is it possible that it's not genetics and breeding but rather environment and physical stress that determine the survivability?

Interesting thoughts.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## curiousgeorge (Oct 9, 2010)

Thanks for starting this new thread, Yuleluder. 

The mention about turkeys... my girlfriend was just reading a book about so-called "back to the land" farming, and apparently the instinct to MATE & REPRODUCE has been bred out of them!! The authors put a bunch of time & energy into convincing their turkeys that "doing it" was a good idea!

This thought has been nagging at me... and I'd be interested to hear what queen breeders & commercial operators have to say... 

Should we allow our bees to raise their own queens?

I know from a honey production/business standpoint this sets a colony back incredibly. But something also seems off about pinching any queen cell you see.
Someone said in the aforementioned "Emergency Queen" thread, that bees in nature seldom are seen raising an emergency queen cell, that most times they are prepared and planning to raise a new queen. 

Is there some way of capitalizing on their preparations & planning to breed high-quality queens, both from the beekeeping standpoint & the bees' own evolutionary standpoint? I'm hoping the pros can comment on this...


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Not to hijack the spirit of the thread, but survival instincts weren't *bred* out of the *wild* turkey genome. 

Not long ago (20 years or so) wild turkeys were extinct in my area. Our excellent TN State Wildlife Resources Agency decided to restock them. They tried hatching eggs from wild birds. They tried stocking pen raised birds from wild stock. None of that worked - they couldn't survive on their own. Finally they introduced a breeding population of captured wild turkeys - that worked. Now - years later - they're plentiful. 

Survival skills for eastern wild turkeys are apparently passed on culturally generation to generation. 

I seriously doubt if that's the case with bees. I know that's not the point, but what are ya gonna do?


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## Bonterra Bees (Aug 30, 2009)

With sincere, due respect to those who’s mortgages depend on honey production and bee products. 
I've had bees and Observation hives since I was a kid. I don't have them to produce excess honey. I must say I have tremendous respect and admiration for bees and _*I have learned a great deal from them about life and nature and cooperation, I don’t think they’ve ever learned anything from me*_. At times I’ve mostly inconvenienced them when I tried to make them do what I wanted them to do and I feel responsible when I screw up their lives.
Mark


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

:applause::applause::applause:


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

"The mention about turkeys... my girlfriend was just reading a book about so-called "back to the land" farming, and apparently the instinct to MATE & REPRODUCE has been bred out of them!! The authors put a bunch of time & energy into convincing their turkeys that "doing it" was a good idea!"

The instinct was not bred out the ability was. The males were selected for breast meat yield to the point that the breast on a tom were so big he cannot maintain his balance when mating. Commercial turkeys breeders use AI to breed their hens. It happened because everyone wanted white meat instead of dark meat for Thanksgiving and Christmas dinner.

Johnny


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## Birdman (May 8, 2009)

I have a hive that went queen less,I placed 4 frames in it one erery 4 days. They never tried to make a queen. Bought a new queen, hive is doing great now.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Ok, seems we struck a nerve in the emergency queen thread... It's really a great topic and a Very important lesson in bee breeding... But before anyone starts picking sides and rolling out the band-wagons, you all need to know that this is actually one topic that actually does have a way to make Everyone happy... So NO HATE MAIL.

First, I have copied and pasted the full original post that was quoted from the Emergency Queen thread... This post was in response to a question about the possible longterm damages that selecting away from swarming tendency could cause, due to the fact that swarming is the bees natural form of reproduction... {to add to that... the reason that bees are so different from most creatures is because they reproduce within the colony, and we breed for traits within the effected scope of that reproduction, but for the species it self to reproduce the Colony must reproduce itself... this is naturally done through swarming, mechanically done through splits, packages, nucs, etc... hope that makes since... basically, having a healthy colonies of bees all over the world is a great thing, but if they can't reproduce the whole colony without the assistance of man, the species will no longer be a natural creature "much like the Giant White Turkeys", and without constant human management they would quickly die off...not good.}

"""""Well it really comes down to definition... the intent is not to breed out swarming entirely on all strains, but rather the select from colonies that swarm only under the perfect conditions, at the right time for the climate and population, and only once per year. Some strains that we consider "commercial" we attempt to lessen that tendency to once every other year, and again the timing for the climate where they are to be used and the population of the colony are both prime factors.

You are absolutely right about over breeding for our on benefit possibly creating strains that could not fair well in a wild environment. The first and foremost goal of our selection process is "to produce excellent bees that are strong, thirty, and self sufficient". If a strain is unable to "survive and thrive", we work them out of our stock. The natural order must come first in any breeding operation.

Good question and I hope this helps.""""""

Before I get into the examples of bee strains to further explain how this works, why it is needed, and how it is controlled to cater to both sides of the fence, I think we should discuss the Turkeys and Chickens that have been mentioned so often... although they reproduce through a completely different system, it is still somewhat relevant to these concerns.

There are several strains of turkeys and chickens that have been bred for quick meat production and white feathers so that they will better suit the meat market... after all the inbreeding, the results are turkeys and chickens that cant naturally reproduce, have no protection from predation, have become susceptible to a huge list of diseases and pests that do not plague their native strains requiring inoculations and pesticides for decent health, and grow so fast that without gross levels of added minerals to their diet as chicks their body weight will out grow their bone density and their legs will break under the weight of their own bodies... But they do feed a lot of people... The Nichols Strain of Giant White Turkey has hens that reach 25#s in about 10 weeks, and toms that reach 45#s in that time... And after all, that is what they were bred for isnt it... the info that I just gave you sounds horrible, but the truth is... they are not a natural species in the first place and thus the Black Spanish Turkeys, Eastern Wild, Royal Palm, etc are completely uneffected by the existence or demise of these other turkeys... Keeping the true native stock healthy and free, and managing the meat production stock (that has been selected for sterility so that it cant breed into local stock..) for food supplies...

But in the case of honey bees, the difference is that the bees that we breed for heavy production ARE able to breed with the local stock of the area, and if the never swarm, what will happen to the local stock??

Now here's the examples... Our policy has always been to manage base strains or breeds by selecting for the betterment of their natural traits first, then selecting for production after they excel and we feel confident that they could be management free if need be (and by management free, I mean "wild" and "Surviving and Thriving"). In areas where our base strains are located their are swarms from our hives living in trees and caves, logs, barns, etc... they live on year after year and this is exactly what bees are suppose to be able to do, so we see it as a good thing.

These strains will swarm once per year at precisely the right time and the right population level, but for those who use the base strains for commercial use, this is where management comes in... There are multiple ways to prevent swarming... and preventing a swarm does not mess with genetics that are passing on to later generations...

But that is the Base Strains (remember those eastern wild turkeys that can reproduce)...

On to the Hybrid Strains (remember those Meat Producers that do not reproduce).... For strains that are intended for heavy commercial production a "Lowered" swarm tendancy can be selected for much more heavily than that of the base strains... this is actually the key ingredient in the development of the SunKist line.... Yes they are very heavy layers, but their huge colony populations are more so due to their lowered swarm tendancy... Where as any other strain would have been over crowded long ago, they continue to stay... this does not mean that they will never swarm... there is no way to completely keep a colony from swarming, again, its the true form of "reproduction" for the honey bee colony... Taking away swarming completely would be like breeding chickens to never lay eggs, its just too far out of their biology. 

Instead we select for the lowest rate of swarming in order to keep the highest populations in the colony during the flows... This type of selection process alone will not make the difference between 45#s per hive and 220#s per hive. Management practices will make the most difference... But I will note that while I hear of others all over saying that they are averaging 50#s with Italians, I am taken back by it... Our Italians (the Base Strains) yield an average of 179.4-212.1 lbs per hive in our area... Management... And swarm prevention for these bees is not hard work... Russians on the other hand, you have to babysit... 

The point is that some breeders keep "Base Strains" (This includes "Pure" as well as "Mutts", just so long as they are simply good all-around bees), others keep "Purpose Driven Hybrids" which are intended for extreme production to suit mans needs... And some keep both...

A favorite saying of mine is "Everything in Moderation"... I have found this to be true in every aspect of my life... It works well in the breeding and management of honey bees also... Keep your lineages divided and study your hives... Select the best not just for grafting, but also for drone rearing... and manage them to get them to do (or not do) things that they would naturally need to do... No gimmicks, no quick bucks, no silver bullets... Just stick to "good bees that answer the demands you need them to, yet still thrive if you sleep in all year"... this is how to produce the best stock.

Hope this helps.


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## Yuleluder (Mar 2, 2005)

rrussell6870 said:


> Our policy has always been to manage base strains or breeds by selecting for the betterment of their natural traits first, then selecting for production after they excel and we feel confident that they could be management free if need be (and by management free, I mean "wild" and "Surviving and Thriving").


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Robert- Big THANK YOU for that piece! That is the kind of help it takes to convert a Dadant hive inspection sheet and Laidlaw yard & queen sheets perform a liottle closer to an F-22.


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## curiousgeorge (Oct 9, 2010)

Maybe this thread's been abandoned already, but I had a thought this morning I'd like to share...

With bee numbers dwindling in many places, would many beekeepers be taking the "high road" by ALLOWING bees to swarm, and NOT capturing them but letting them increase feral stocks? Easy for someone like me to say whose livelihood (as of yet) does not depend on keeping bees.

In line with this thread, would it be helpful to global bee populations to INCREASE the swarming tendency in SOME strains of bees? Or is that a Pandora's Box? I'm thinking theoretically here of taking action to strengthen the honeybee's situation...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Great thoughts... as I said earlier, we have tons of swarms living around our base stock yards... we do not try to capture them, but mainly because we study the survivability of the strains by studying the swarms... I should probably note that although many of these swarms have been in the "wild" for many years, I do not consider them "feral" because they have not changed genetically or behaviorally at all since their exit from the hives... the only true difference between the swarm colonies and the hives colonies is the type of home that they live in... 

I will also add that many times we have set out singles of just foundation just before the fall flow and some swarms will leave the trees, barns, pipes, logs, etc just o get back to the comfortable housing of the hive... it has been a great benefit for us to use swarms for studies.

As to whether or not people should promote swarming... no. Lol. The issue is that a colony that swarms multiple times in one season is mostly producing unsuccessful swarms that do not have the populations within the swarms or the colony to be successful enough to promote the long-term existence of any of the colonies.

Hope this helps.


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## curiousgeorge (Oct 9, 2010)

"The issue is that a colony that swarms multiple times in one season is mostly producing unsuccessful swarms that do not have the populations within the swarms or the colony to be successful enough to promote the long-term existence of any of the colonies."

Thanks once again, RRussell, we could pick your brain for hours!!! Can you please explain this a bit further? Don't bees "know" their odds of success prior to swarming? Am I understanding that the swarming impulse can be detrimental to a colony itself? Are you speaking in terms of "evolution" or "production"? Why would a colony swarm multiple times in a season if it does not "further their cause"?

And thanks for pointing out that a colony living "in the wild" doesn't necessarily mean "feral".

Your operation sounds fascinating.


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## scdw43 (Aug 14, 2008)

rrussell6870 said:


> I should probably note that although many of these swarms have been in the "wild" for many years, I do not consider them "feral" because they have not changed genetically or behaviorally at all since their exit from the hives... the only true difference between the swarm colonies and the hives colonies is the type of home that they live in...


I agree Robert, so called feral swarms that everybody catches, are just bees trying to get out of a bad situation.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

curiousgeorge said:


> Thanks once again, RRussell, we could pick your brain for hours!!! Can you please explain this a bit further? Don't bees "know" their odds of success prior to swarming? Am I understanding that the swarming impulse can be detrimental to a colony itself? Are you speaking in terms of "evolution" or "production"? Why would a colony swarm multiple times in a season if it does not "further their cause"?


You are very welcome.. thats why I am here. 

To better explain the reasons for the loss of survival rates from colonies that produce multiple swarms, we really need to discuss a few key points in the adaptation of bees and how behavior is effected by the need to adapt as well as the lack of need to adapt.

The first thing to note is that "Stress" or "Pressure" is the key to honey bee adaptation. This works in both ways... the pressence of stresses cause the bees to begin an adaptation period in which they will pass along small behavioral or physical responses to help future generations to cope with the stress... Depending on the type of stress, the change could be physical (ie... a strain of bee becoming darker in color, smaller in size, and faster in flight in areas where a large population of birds are causing stress from predation), or the change could be behavioral (ie... a srain of bees becoming more aggressive in protecting their colonies due to large populations of skunks in an area causing stress from destruction of the comb and stores... or a strain developing VSH traits to remove mites as a result of the stress caused by large popluations of mites in the area).

Not only does the pressence of stress trigger adaptation, but so does the absence of stress... But the type of stress for these cases has been mostly limited to weather, winter, predation, and food stores... Say a strain has adapted to an area with poor weather (offering less foraging time), long winters, predators that threaten the populations or comb and stores of colonies, and/or little or poor quality forage... Now you move this colony to a "bee heaven" so to speak, where there is no real winter to speak of, almost every day is a warm sunny one, there are no predators, and there is an endless supply of food... Within a very short period of time, these bees will start to adapt... The first change that you will note will be the increase of swarms produced on average from each colony each year... this is the strains way of taking advantage of the "peace" in order to spread its species out further (which by the way is the ultimate goal of any species "To populate any and every substainable area"... The next adaptation you will note is lowered aggression, as they are beginning to let down their guard since they are no longer under the threat of predation...

This is not an "over-night" process though... in the early stages, the strain can even become "self-destructive", as their insticts are still weighing in, even though the evironment around them does not call for their actions... (ie... russians overstocking honey in the brood chamber to the point that they run out of space for enough brood to get them through winter, and producing multiple swarms from the each colony each season, knocking their populations back too far for average winter survival... They came from a frigid climate where they had little time to build up stores and fewer sources to get it from... so when there is plenty of food, and plenty of time, they still think that they need as much as they can get, so they over load the colony with stores and knock down their populations by excessive swarming, and thus it colapses in winter... This is not the case for ALL russians... its situational as they are still in the process of adaptation... no hate mail please).... 

Now on to you questions...""Don't bees "know" their odds of success prior to swarming?"" Only if they are truly bees that are acclimated to that particular area and have not been recently effected by breeding with bees from other areas... Again, it comes down to "Has the strain learned the climate of its location?"... Russians build up late..why?.. Because that is when they would have begun building up in the primorsky region... So they still have not made the adjustment to the earlier springs of the US... Carnies from slovenia wouldnt build up until may 20 years ago... today they build up in feb in our area... Because they have adapted to the local climate over time... 

""Am I understanding that the swarming impulse can be detrimental to a colony itself?"" Absolutely... But only in multiple swarming colonies... and again, it is not because swarming is "bad", but because the colonies are in an state of "flux" and thus unable to properly utilize the enternal calculator to judge their needs against the local climate.

Why would a colony swarm multiple times in a season if it does not "further their cause"? Again, they are in a state of "flux"... it is not natural for any strain to swarm more that once per season... this is suppose to be dependant on population size (room), food source (length of flow), length of time until winter (amount of time allowed to build a new home, collect stores, and rear fresh brood), etc... 

Hope this helps!


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Mark,

I agree. In the case of "feral vs swarm" it all comes down to definition...

If "feral" is a creature that has left domestication and returned to a "wild" state, then most colonies found living "out of the box" can't truly be considered "feral" because the only thing that makes them different from the colonies that are "in the box" is simply the box...

In pre-mite days there were colonies living "out of the box" that had a genetic make up that was mostly a strain of bees that was not actually kept by bee keepers... these were mostly a French AMM/Italian hybrid... and they would keep the same residence for 20+ years... 

Many people judge the age of a swarm by the comb, but that can be very misleading as the comb attracts new swarms each season... the AMMs were fiercely protective and terrible robbers, thus the swarms from kept strains could not over take them or build "wild colonies" in their area... add that to the extra production of drones, etc, and you can easily see how they were not "bred out" by kept colony genetics.

To me, they were the only true "US Feral bee strain" or the only truly "wild bees in the US". 

Today there is a new strain of "wild" bee emerging... but so far they are mainly surviving swarms from kept colonies that had vsh traits bred into them by man, and thus are not necessarily better suited to survive than the kept vsh colonies...

I can say this though... with all of the efforts and research that is being given to create bees that can withstand varroa, the hive beetles will create a change in "wild" stock just like the mites did... this next decade will be very interesting.:doh:


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Birdman said:


> I have a hive that went queen less,I placed 4 frames in it one erery 4 days. They never tried to make a queen. Bought a new queen, hive is doing great now.


Hmmm.... I've heard that story in various forms many times!

If the hive had been queenless, and you put in young larvae, they would have tried to make a new queen.

What really happened, is the hive already contained a virgin or a queen cell you didn't notice. About the time you introduced your queen, the queen that was already in the hive started laying eggs.

The only other thing that could have stopped them raising a new queen, would be if the larvae you put in were too old, or if the hive contained laying workers. But in this case it can't have been laying workers or you would not have ended up with a queen now, they would have killed the one you introduced.


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