# First Hives - Foundation-less from Scratch



## ch.cool (Aug 22, 2012)

Hi,
I did the same start this year. I leveled the hive, used self made starter stripes/guides and used one frame of foundation. That's it. I got nice straight combs.

ch.cool


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## mmiller (Jun 17, 2010)

I too have done the same with good results in both TBH's and Lang hives. That said, I've also seen them make a mess. There are no guarantees. Starting with a couple frames of drawn comb is bar far the best chance at good straight combs. If you don't have any then starter strip can work fine but you need to watch them closely from the begining. If they get off a little on the first comb the second will worse and it gets worse the further they go. 

All in all I've had pretty good success. Michael Bush's website addresses this in good detail.

Mike


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## LetMBee (Jan 4, 2012)

I have had great luck with using the foundation less frames from Walter Kelley. I have only used deep frames. As long as your hive is level they will work. I don't even use a wax starter strip anymore. Just make sure things are level!


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## Steven Tervort (Feb 16, 2012)

The problem I have had is that they build off the edge of the frame and not down the center. Even with comb guides coated in wax they would seem to mess it up occasionally. 
Now I have fully drawn comb that is nice and centered. All that I have to do is put an empty frame between two drawn frames to get new perfectly-drawn frames. It was a pain getting to this point. It can be done, but if I were to do it again I would use full frames of foundation to get them started. This way you get your first combs nice and centered from the beginning. Once you get a few frames drawn just add the empty foundationless frames between the drawn ones.


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## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

I'm new to this beekeeping as well - and want to go foundationless. I'm planning on starting the first brood box (8 frame mediums) with foundation and then using those as guides with the 2nd and 3rd brood box. So each hive is started out with 8 frames of foundation and that is it as far as foundation.

It will be good to keep in touch come spring and see how we do.


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## Steven Tervort (Feb 16, 2012)

rniles said:


> I'm new to this beekeeping as well - and want to go foundationless. I'm planning on starting the first brood box (8 frame mediums) with foundation and then using those as guides with the 2nd and 3rd brood box. So each hive is started out with 8 frames of foundation and that is it as far as foundation.
> 
> It will be good to keep in touch come spring and see how we do.


That would be the easiest way. If you are interested in natural cell size you could eventually phase the frames, started with foundation, out. Doing it this way takes care of the biggest problem of foundationless which is getting them to draw the comb down the center of the top bar.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

If you start with a NUC, you will have a good start and can do as you wish when the hive matures.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

JSabins said:


> Is it worth trying to buy drawn comb from others to put in every other frame in the first two supers? Are there other methods that have worked for any of you for getting a new colony to draw straight, foundation-less comb other than or in addition to the Popsicle stick method?
> Jeff


This seems like a two part question;
If you are starting with a package, then buying a few frames of drawn comb (if you can) will move your bees forward a month over foundation or foundationless frames, and can make the difference between a good hive and a great hive first year. I would put the drawn combs together, and not split the brood. Put your new frames on the outer edge of the brood. A 5 frame nuc box works well for this.
In short, drawn comb is always a good way to get packages going quickly.

Once they are building up, then checkerboarding with foundationless works well, but again, splitting the brood nest can be devastating if the hive isn't strong enough to cover the brood, so only add one or two at a time, external to the core brood area.
Like Lee says, nucs provide quite a bit of the initial work by having the combs and brood. Chances are, the cost of a package and a few drawn combs will be as much as a nuc and will not build up as fast.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

"We like the idea of foundation-less beekeeping"
Don't worry the bees will figure out a way to correct this for you.

"what are the odds that all the comb is crazy after week 1-2"
100%

You can pursue other measures or persist with foundationless. It will not be easy with the first box of frames. Who knows you might get lucky and they build the first frames nice and straight.

I woudl start them in a nuc though. I use 5 frames but Might even go smaller than that to get the first fraems of comb. then add new frames sandwiched between those they already built to keep them making straight comb. It is much easier to get them to build the next one straight if it is next to a straight one.

To start I would check on them every two to three days correcting any comb that is wondering off course as they go. It can be pushed around a bit if it has not gotten to far out of control.


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## JSabins (Dec 18, 2012)

rniles said:


> I'm new to this beekeeping as well - and want to go foundationless. I'm planning on starting the first brood box (8 frame mediums) with foundation and then using those as guides with the 2nd and 3rd brood box. So each hive is started out with 8 frames of foundation and that is it as far as foundation.
> 
> It will be good to keep in touch come spring and see how we do.


I like that idea. Would love to go completely foundationless, but it sounds like that may be inviting some unnecessary frustration. Glad to stay in touch.


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## JSabins (Dec 18, 2012)

LetMBee said:


> I have had great luck with using the foundation less frames from Walter Kelley. I have only used deep frames. As long as your hive is level they will work. I don't even use a wax starter strip anymore. Just make sure things are level!


I had no idea these existed... Thanks.


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## dixiebooks (Jun 21, 2010)

if you do go all foundationless in the same box, be sure to check on it every couple of days to make things straight. Take a good sharp knife with you to cut comb loose and reposition. As soon as a few frames are filled out, you can alternate them with empty frames until all are drawn. That is how I did it w/ some boxes of foundationless and had good results. If you wait more than a couple of days, the comb will be very catawampus and more difficult to correct. -js


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## Beregondo (Jun 21, 2011)

if you want simplicity and safety, Lburou has given some good advice.

In a nuc you not only get 4 or 5 frames of drawn comb but a functioning colony with bees of all ages.
Usually it will have an established queen, and not a random one just introduced to the rest of the bees and likely to be rejected/superceded within a few months as package bee queens often are.

The combs in the nuc will act as guides to promote straight comb drawing in the foundationless frames you insert, if there is a drawn comb on each side of the foundationless.

Don't just put a foundationless frame in every other slot though. 
Put in one or two at a time so that the brood nest isn't split up the the point that it hinders brood rearing. (Make sure the two frames with the most brood on them stay next to each other until the brood nest is expanded to a few other frames).

The several frames of drawn comb that come in a nuc will set you ahead alright...at least a week and _*maybe*_ as much as a month.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

Beregondo said:


> The several frames of drawn comb that come in a nuc will set you ahead alright...at least a week and _*maybe*_ as much as a month.


I agree that "a few" drawn combs will set you forward most likely 2 weeks. A nuc is different though, having brood in all stages and a frame of pollen will set you forward more than a month in my opinion. 
I bought some nucs early this past spring and split them again 6 weeks later with store bought queens adding only foundationless frames to the nucs to build with. Can't do that with packages even with drawn comb.


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## LetMBee (Jan 4, 2012)

I ran all foundation less frames in my swarm traps lat year. I caught 14 swarms and the bees built well on them. This is my second year doing this. As long as I keep things level it works out. I didn't even use a wax starter strip on them last year. 

Painting wax on the frames made them NOT work as well for me. 3 years ago I had a hive go all wacky in one deep. I just let the bees work down. That box is a mess. The 2 deeps under that wacky box are drawn well on the f-less frames. I am going to crush and strain the capped honey out of that wacky box next summer.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Most of my thoughts on the matter are included in a youtube video I did. I love how people act like doing foundationless takes all kinds of skill and only an expert can do it. It's just like pretty much anything else with beekeeping, follow the proper principals for success and you will most times be fine, but there will be occasions where the bees decide to do something different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38SPvuWvVkc

You can do it with no other drawn combs, but I would recommend not leaving them a week or 2. check in 2 or 3 days, that way if they have decided to build the opposite direction they are supposed to you catch it early.

Rod


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

The bees will figure it out. 

1) do have a center guide of some type. I generally just use wedge top frames and break out the wedge. The bees build on the step, maybe 1/16th off center.

2) do keep all the frames pushed tightly together in the center of the box until drawn out.

3) do feed if you don't have a strong flow.

4) don't give them too much room too soon.


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## iwombat (Feb 3, 2009)

To those I mentor, I generally recommend one frame of foundation and copious use of follower boards (same idea as the nuc, but w/o changing equipment). Grade your drawn frames on straightness from 1 to 4, 1 being the best and 4 being the worst. Try and put new frames between two 1's or a 1 and 2, move the 3s and 4s to the outside. If you do that, you'll have enough success to get the hang of what you're doing.


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## Tom Davidson (Mar 20, 2012)

Last year I just used the inverted wedge as my guide, per Michael Bush, which worked out great. I got straight combs without fail and super fast when I put the empty frames inbetween two frames of drawn comb. If you don't have that, then checkerboarding inbetween frames of foundation may be a good way to go. My spring 2013 bees drew super straight deep combs out extremely fast, in just a few days, when I checkerboarded, and slower on the non-checkerboarded frames. It was hit or miss with wacky combs on a box full of foundationless frames. I had success monitoring the wacky frames and twisting the combs back in place. On a few occasions I cut off some wacky comb and rubber-banded it into place at top center on an empty frame, and they drew those out very fast and then chewed through the rubberbands when they were done. Checkerboard, but take a knife and rubberbands with you and keep a close eye on your frames, and you should be good.


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## Kristen2678 (Mar 21, 2012)

I also started from scratch with foundationless frames and a package. I also used MB's flipped wedge approach. All combs were nice and straight. My only issue was amount of comb. They didn't fill out the frames completely. Most better than 50% in two deep boxes. I think 5 frames were drawn 75% or more. 1 and 10 were nearly blank in the bottom deep. This year I am going to 8 frames and starting with a box of foundation hoping they draw more wax. I'll checkerboard foundationless from there.


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## Tom Davidson (Mar 20, 2012)

Beregondo said:


> Don't just put a foundationless frame in every other slot though.
> Put in one or two at a time so that the brood nest isn't split up the the point that it hinders brood rearing. (Make sure the two frames with the most brood on them stay next to each other until the brood nest is expanded to a few other frames).


Great advice! Plus, you end up with extra drawn comb to use in a nuc. I put my empty frames in slots 2 or 3, and 8 or 9 in my 10-frame deeps.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

1. Don't paint wax on your comb guides...you cannot attach it as well as the bees do, and their comb will be effectively "glued to a layer of paint".

2. Consider how you will deal with the package queen. If you hang the cage between frames it will affect how they build comb.

3. Don't spread the brood more than the bees can cover.

Deknow


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## Gus979 (Oct 11, 2012)

I'm planning on starting my first two hives come spring as well. Just to see, I have one that is going to be plastic, and the other is going to be foundationless. Will it help if I put two frames of my plastic foundation in the foundationless hive?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

In my experience, use one or the other. My preference is to use plastic (or wax) and when combs are drawn, add a foundationless frame in between two finished frames. Otherwise, it seems it is just to tempting and the bees will not follow my intentions which are for straight comb not attached to the next frame.


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## urbanoutlaw (Nov 19, 2012)

Is there any difference in technique for those using deep hive bodies? Do I need to wire the frames, or simple invert the wedge and proceed like those using mediums?


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

I use deeps and mediums foundationless. I don't treat them any differently. Either one you need to keep from putting the comb horozontal to the ground or it will fall out if it's too new and full of honey or brood. I don't wire either one, but then again I am especially cheap and lazy so a case can be made for wiring or using fishing line. I use NO foundation in any of my hives. You just need to keep an eye on them early on to make sure they are headed in the right direction. After you have some brood combs going and put your empties between there you should have near 0 issues. If you place them between open honey comb then you will have a problem more than likely that they will draw the comb with honey out extra fat instead of using the space for another comb, but I'm guessing that can happen with foundation also.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I put fishing line on some of my foundation last year. the bees ate the line out. and much of it after they had drawn comb. There could be some reasons for this other than just having some foreign object in there comb though. They where slow to get to some of the foundation and it sagged due to heat. the chewing away of the foundation may have been there way of getting comb that was the right depth for them. They did eventually get all their comb sorted out and straight but the fishing line is gone weather I like it or not.


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## Kristen2678 (Mar 21, 2012)

rweakley said:


> I use deeps and mediums foundationless. I don't treat them any differently. Either one you need to keep from putting the comb horozontal to the ground or it will fall out if it's too new and full of honey or brood. I don't wire either one, but then again I am especially cheap and lazy so a case can be made for wiring or using fishing line. I use NO foundation in any of my hives. You just need to keep an eye on them early on to make sure they are headed in the right direction. After you have some brood combs going and put your empties between there you should have near 0 issues. If you place them between open honey comb then you will have a problem more than likely that they will draw the comb with honey out extra fat instead of using the space for another comb, but I'm guessing that can happen with foundation also.


I'm guessing you use mediums for honey? Ever extract a deep that was not wired? I'm in all 8 frame deeps and have been wiring. This year I'm considering only wiring what goes in the third box. But I feel like I'm asking for trouble.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Daniel Y said:


> I put fishing line on some of my foundation last year. the bees ate the line out. and much of it after they had drawn comb. There could be some reasons for this other than just having some foreign object in there comb though. They where slow to get to some of the foundation and it sagged due to heat. the chewing away of the foundation may have been there way of getting comb that was the right depth for them. They did eventually get all their comb sorted out and straight but the fishing line is gone weather I like it or not.


Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it.

You have now.learned why the wiring of foundation was done in the first place....not to reinforce comb....but to keep the foundation from sagging as it is drawn.

Most of our frames are foundationless deeps, united, and we extract.

The most fun we've ever had with foundationless frames was watching Mike Palmer inspect them....wax swaying this way and that: )


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I woudl start them on as few frames as possible say a package in a 5 frame nuc or even smaller. and then stay on top of there progress as they build those first few frames. if you check often enough you can catch comb that is heading in the wrong direction and correct it. no need to cut it out. You can separate comb form the frames and push it to the location you want it if it is out of place by just a bit. I got my TBH started this way and they are now building 14 nice straight combs. New bars get added between drawn comb from now on which serves as pre guided comb building. works pretty good.

From what I can tell bees hate that empty space in there comb when you add a new bar or frame and will get very busy about filling it.


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## Ranger Cody (Jan 21, 2012)

In my limited experience, if you are going to start with a nuc and go foundationless, make sure the frames in the nuc you start with are nice and straight and more importantly of the same thickness. In the nucs I got last year, combs were not of the same thickness, (normal in the brood area, but very thick around the top corners of the frames where honey was stored.) Needless to say, the bees adjusted accordingly, but I had a devil of a time straightening it all out. It only takes one bad frame to throw all the future drawn comb out of alignment.

Now for my question: Who has had success running foundationless frames through a honey extractor? Is the process any different?


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## Tom Davidson (Mar 20, 2012)

Ranger Cody said:


> Now for my question: Who has had success running foundationless frames through a honey extractor? Is the process any different?


I extracted for the first time with both wired foundation and wireless foundationless frames. A mentor said I was headed for disaster. I had one comb barely crack on me in the center, just one, in my junior bench extractor. I simple followed Michael Bush's advice and went nice and slow, slowly picking up speed as the honey spun out. Just for kicks, when I saw that one cracked frame, I put it in two more times and cranked as hard and fast as I could. The thing would NOT blow out. 

As long as the comb has had a chance to harden, it's just as fine as foundation frames has been my happy experience so far.


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