# Natural bottom



## Phirstgeer (Mar 6, 2015)

I was watching a video by Michael Bush where he inoculates the bottom of the top bar hive with tree bark and leaves. Has anyone tried this? It seems like a great idea. To keep some natural floara in the hive. Maybe this will keep the hive healthier?


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## Eric Crosby (Jan 4, 2015)

Can u Post the video please?


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

Yah, getcha some of those pseudoscorpions. I hope Mike chimes in here, I've never seen this.


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## Phirstgeer (Mar 6, 2015)

I've been nursing a bad back for the past two days and watching every video on the web regarding top bar bee keeping. I thought it was Michael Bush but I may be wrong. Will hopefully post video soon.


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

Oh, probably the guy that does the eco-floor, then.

I kinda like that idea, but you lose the ability to monitor what's falling, and you've got to add stuff to the bottom of the hive to get enough depth...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm guessing it was Phil Chandler. I have experimented some with detritus on the bottom but have not come up with a satisfactory way to simulate what happens in a tree. When I don't screen it off the bees haul it out for trash and build combs down into the space. When I do screen it off the bees can't guard it and it gets full of ants and wax moths etc., not that there aren't ants and wax moths in the detritus in a tree, but the bees can run them off if they want to. It could have the advantage of providing a place for things like pseudo scorpions to live and possibly other things the fit the ecology of a colony, but like I said I haven't figured out how to do that effectively.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Michael Bush said:


> but like I said I haven't figured out how to do that effectively.


Don't your top entrance hives accomplish that? All you would need is a deep dish bottom board and after a few years...voila!


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

It was Phil Chandler, and after watching the video, I think he was just kicking the idea around also, nothing definite.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Don't your top entrance hives accomplish that? All you would need is a deep dish bottom board and after a few years...voila!

No, they clean the bottom off most of the time. And if you make it too deep they clean it off and build comb on the bottom frames.


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## msscha (Jan 4, 2014)

I did build my first hive with the eco-floor as recommended by Phil Chandler. I have a "screened" bottom, with the eco-floor (6" deep) beneath it, but the screen allows the bees to get through (though it was a few months before they seemed to care). I just built a new hive with a much simpler design, solid bottom board with side entrances on one end, and a couple of screened holes for ventilation. Even after only a month, I can report some differences, but cannot with any certainty AT ALL attribute the differences to the floor or the season or the way the hive was started etc. Too many variables for a controlled comparison. But, two differences are immediately apparent: 1) There was condensation in the new hive almost immediately; 2) I can see all the detritus from the hive and the SHB larvae on the bottom of the new hive. The condensation seems under control now that I've removed the inside, open feeder...but the SHB is all over the place. I don't know if the eco-floor makes a difference in with this, except that in the Mother Hive (as I am calling it, as it is large and in charge and FULL of bees!), there are also a variety of other critters co-inhabitating, including roaches and ants, and who knows what kind of micro-fauna and flora. So, if larvae falls into the eco floor (created with leaves gathered from the ground and pine bark mulch), does it find a welcoming place to flourish or a place where it's welcome to be eaten? I've seen a few SHB in the Mother Hive but nothing like I'm seeing in the new hive, with its split struggling to survive. Or maybe I just never saw the larvae or maybe they were eaten by whatever lives in the basement....

One of the reasons Chandler recommends the eco floor is for the insulation factor. Given that, a few leaves on the bottom of the hive aren't really going to accomplish much. The question of whether it's possible to seed a hive with nature's bounty, though, is an excellent one, and I'm pretty sure that the deeper floor with its combination of forest-y ingredients does help maintain the interior temp and humidity. The eco-floor also adds weight, which is good for stability; it also changes the shape, which is bad if you want to move the hive. I need to build two more hives in the next couple of weeks, and I'm struggling with this question, too: are the extra critters and such contributing so that it's worth adding the deep floor? Could I just use a 14" wide board with a proper screen bottom around 11" down, and include the woodsy debris underneath it or does part of its function come from the fact the bees can hang out there? Down here (north central Florida), the local wisdom is to use screened bottom board for varroa control, but I don't treat, so not sure if that matters...but I'm totally freaked out by the SBH larvae (I've already squished handfuls of the little things) -- and the SHB larvae should die on a bottom board and/or the bees try to carry the larvae out. Michael Bush uses solid bottom boards as does Wyatt Mangum, but both live further north than I do.

In any case, this was a longish reply to your question! I don't regret the eco-floor, but wish I could say if it's part of what made my first hive such a strong one or that was just good luck. The only other southern beek that I know who tried deep floors removed them because of the other critters who live in the debris. But I do believe the depth contributes positively to insulating the hive, mitigating bigger temperature swings and keeping humidity more constant. I wish I had the University of Florida's $$ to run a proper experiment testing eco floors versus solid versus screen versus some combination thereof!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

My main issue was simply getting the comb to stop at the right place while allowing the bees access to the detritus if they needed to run something off. Maybe 1/4" hardware cloth would work. I don't know. I'm afraid if I give them too much room below they will build comb there...

The critters were part of my concern. I wanted some of the benign ones and even some of the questionable ones like ants, because they probably eat some of the mites that fall and maybe even some of the mites that don't. And of course pseudo scorpions will actually get up into the hive and eat Varroa. But what about the SHB and the wax moths? I don't really mind the wax moths if they are in the detritus and the bees can get to them if they like. But SHB make me nervous if the bees can't get to them. They are much more mobile and much more aggressive.


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## msscha (Jan 4, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> My main issue was simply getting the comb to stop at the right place while allowing the bees access to the detritus if they needed to run something off. Maybe 1/4" hardware cloth would work. I don't know. I'm afraid if I give them too much room below they will build comb there...


I'm using 1/4" hardware cloth as the floor of the Mother hive and so far, they've not built below it or attached comb to it. 



Michael Bush said:


> The critters were part of my concern. I wanted some of the benign ones and even some of the questionable ones like ants, because they probably eat some of the mites that fall and maybe even some of the mites that don't. And of course pseudo scorpions will actually get up into the hive and eat Varroa. But what about the SHB and the wax moths? I don't really mind the wax moths if they are in the detritus and the bees can get to them if they like. But SHB make me nervous if the bees can't get to them. They are much more mobile and much more aggressive.


And this pretty much nails the crux of the matter -- are there things in the detritus eating the SHB or was it that it took the SHB time to find a new/first hive, and by the time they did, the hive was strong enough to deal with the adults? Did the ants eat the larvae that dropped through? I know I've never seen the bees in this hive dealing with larvae, whereas the split is already trying to get the larvae out. (they keep trying to go through the ventilation mesh to do so). I know that I'll have to start using traps now where I never have used them before. I've got no idea if there are pseudo scorpions or Stratiolaelaps scimitus, and whether it would matter. For me, the question is mostly one of insulation/condensation, which is the advantage of any deep floor. I'm thinking of building a hive with much thinner walls encasing styrofoam which would have a better R factor. Also, as I move into my second season and expanding my hives, I just want to find a design and stick with it so that I know what I'm looking at when comparing hives!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I may try another experiment if I get the time.


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## Adam Roae (May 31, 2014)

I have one of three TBHs with this kind of floor. I'm in the UK so we don't have SHB. People have used light material like sawdust, which just gets carried away. I used damp wood cuttings, which are heavier, so don't get removed. I have a mesh underneath the eco-floor, which I regret really, because it lets the material at the bottom dry out too much in summer. If I did another one, I would use a solid floor with a few drainage holes an so that it holds the moisture better, with some pond liner to stop the wood rotting too quickly.

I haven't noticed any difference at all in terms of bee health, differences in management, etc.


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## msscha (Jan 4, 2014)

Hi, Adam. My eco-floor does have a solid bottom b/c I missed that part of the directions! I didn't line it with anything, but did add a few layers of shellac to help with moisture. Our humidity is usually in the 90% range, so keeping moisture in isn't a problem, but I've noticed no problems b/c of the solid bottom. I'm happy to hear that the UK still doesn't have SHB. I sincerely hope it stays that way.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

I'm the southern beek who built a couple of eco floors. I decided against using them as such before I installed them and turned them into traps instead. In the end I removed them altogether. I got nervous about beetles and roaches finding them a perfect environment and never gave them a chance, so it's interesting to see msscha's experience. My screw-in bottle traps have eliminated all SHB issues for the last couple of years, along with wax moths, so I'm not inclined to try the eco floor again even if others find it useful.


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## msscha (Jan 4, 2014)

Hi, Jon! So glad you chimed in...I was trying to remember your name, and was pretty sure it was "john", so I could use the screw in bottle traps you invented. I'm pretty sure I have the page bookmarked...the new hive is still a baby yet, and I can still install one on the other side. I pretty much decided to go your route, too -- most of the TBHers locally keep their hives in shaded areas, which I'll be doing, too. I'll be building two more over the next couple of weeks, and this time, will plan for those traps from the beginning. Thank you!!


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

Yeah, msscha, I'm the h-less Jon! I'm glad someone else is trying my system. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on it, and if your experiences match my own. In case you can't find the bookmark, here's the link again. http://imgur.com/a/3YTzK 
Jon


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## msscha (Jan 4, 2014)

Jon Wolff said:


> Y In case you can't find the bookmark, here's the link again. http://imgur.com/a/3YTzK
> Jon


 Thank you! I was kind of hoping you'd repost just in case...:banana:.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

msscha said:


> Thank you! I was kind of hoping you'd repost just in case...:banana:.


Msscha, you’re welcome! I’m sure you’ll find other uses for them, as I have. A couple weeks ago I harvested some honey I had left to overwinter with the bees. Since it was time I prepped the traps (the last time was six months ago, in the fall), I switched the jars out for feeder jars with climbing screens, but instead of syrup, I put in the crushed honeycomb. The weather was wet and chilly, and since the foragers were kept inside, extracting the honey from the wax gave them something to do, as well as fed them back some of their own honey. I took the traps and dumped out the contents, poured in boiling water, dumped that, and wiped the bottles clean before prepping them for the spring. I had to wear latex gloves because the traps were disgusting; one trap was such a slimy, stinky mess of beetles, moths, and their larvae that I had to leave it to air in the sun for a day even after cleaning it. It’s a small price to pay, though, considering the job the traps are doing. I’m just glad the mess is inside a glass jar instead of inside the actual hive.


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