# Bees ripped off?



## Keith Jarrett

ED, I would first get a third party COUNTY inspection done, ASAP.


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## Joel

I'm assuming you had contracts? I would start there. Might be something in the regulation of interstate commerce which may help as well. I would want somebody there to represent the group at this point. A plane ticket and a hotel is a cheap option in comparrison to the potential loss at this point. A contact with WV Apirary inspection may be a good idea as well. An official inquiry might help.


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## suttonbeeman

Quite simply I WOULD BE ON AIRPLANE TOMORROW.... Checking air rates from huntington...$500-700. I would also get in contact with county inspector...but would be there with him! Now some other possabilities.....It was not a good year for bees....alot of rainy cold weather until the last 10 days. My bees were in pretty good shape(20-25 lbs stores and up) However my broker fed mine 2 weeks ago...said they would have starved in a week if she didnt. Alot reports of hungry hives. How much stores were in them?? Where are they in CA? Mine were in Chowchilla(15 miles north of Fresno). Father south was alittle dryer I think. Did anyone check stores?? The cost of $44 seems like a ripoff! Like I said I would be a plant tomorrow...first flight out. Would not tell them until I was there! Cost about $2 to 2.40 mile. So your 7k is a little high ........Let me know I can get you a rate from 2.00 to 2.30 depending on how quick you need them! Probably cost you about 5k to 5500.00. Broker told me yesterday mine looked great...truck on way to get them now. Rick


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## Bud Dingler

look for an attorney also. 

make some calls to Nodak or Sodak or CA where you have a better of finding someone with some understanding of the bee biz. 

show them you mean business. 

that does sound fishy. best of luck.


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## Joel

Yep, an attorney would be a good idea. I'm assuming we're talking about $40K+ in unpaid hive rentals + the value of the hives which should double the total value. I'd get an attorney to protect $80K. If each beekeeper pitched in 10-15 bucks a hive you'd have a retainer fee and a place to start from.


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## Conchis

if you decide to get an attorney, make sure you organize the paperwork and reports that you have into a concise file, include all reports, if they are verbal make sure the attorney knows who received the report, who gave the report, etc. and do a background check if you can on the broker on your end....all of this will save you time that you would have to pay for the attorney on an hourly basis. It sounds like it would be worth finding someone out there to represent your interests.


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## Beeslave

Keith Jarrett said:


> ED, I would first get a third party COUNTY inspection done, ASAP.


Definately have this done asap. With the rainy weather and lack of forage time they could have starved out if your broker didn't watch them good enough. Very fishy when they accept your product then say it is no good when they are done with them. I'm sure there are a few beeks out there that could do that for you. I would in-a-heartbeat if I was out there. I enjoy pulling the stinky fish out of the barrel for all to see. As for the trucking part $7,000 sounds close. I had prices last year from $2.50-$3.00 per loaded mile with the high fuel costs.


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## Keith Jarrett

Beeslave said:


> I'm sure there are a few beeks out there that could do that for you. I would in-a-heartbeat if I was out there..


Beeslave, that's a good idea, Ed, if you need my help please PM me.


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## Steelton Bee Man

Hey folks,

Thanks for the good advice. I found out that our bees were/are??? in Delano CA below Bakersfield. I know nothing about CA or this particular area. Perhaps there are many growers there. 

I also found out tonight that someone from our area (not in our group) lost about 500 hives. He flew out. He saw fifteen hives with my last name on them with no frames, just empty hive bodies. Somebody stole them. We were told that they were full of disease and also ccd. We have not had much CCD around here, but it beats all, if when the bees leave they take the frames with them.

Does CA have any reembursment program for such cases? I am at a loss, thanks, Ed.


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## Conchis

It seems to me that if a "grower" has declared the hives diseased and taken it upon himself to destroy the hives, then he'd better have some pretty good evidence of that disease. It still sounds to me like you need a lot better explanation and accounting for you property than what you're getting. I wish you luck with this.


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## Beeslave

Now it sounds like you need a good lawyer and your broker is at fault since they were in his care. Unless in the contract there was fine print of them not beeing responsible for the loss/theft of your bees. Good luck solving this issue. Keep us updated.


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## Keith Jarrett

ED, document everything, if you don't have the time buy a tape recorder and log with DATES & NAMES of everything. DO NOT RELEY ON YOUR MEMERORY. 
Best of luck, Keith


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## Tom G. Laury

I would bet that the problem is not with the grower but with some form of middle man. What is this about a broker in Ohio? And one in Calif.? 99% of the farmers are straight shooters can't say the same about "brokers".

Was there a " Buckeye Bee Co. " involved? Somebody is ripping you off.


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## cow pollinater

Tulare County Sherrifs Department has an ag crimes unit that does nothing but deal with this kind of stuff and they're very good at it. 559-798-1276 is the main office number that I have on file. They should be able to send you in the right direction.
Delano is on the border so they may be in Kern county in which case I don't know much about their policies.


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## alpha6

You need to get things in order. It sounds like you are going to have to do several things. 

First. Gather up all your documentation. Things like a contact if you have it. If you don't there are other things you can put together. A shipping invoice from the driver who shipped your bees. An affidavit from the driver about where he delivered them and to whom. Also a copy of whoever signed for your hives in Calf. Also anything else that can verify you shipped your bees and how many. This means affidavits or sworn statements from the other beeks in your area. (also pics of them being loaded etc if you have them) I would contact the broker and get an explanation of exactly what is going on. If he refuses to speak to you or return your calls leave him a message that if he doesn't return your calls within 24 hrs you will be filing criminal charges against him. Be prepared to file charges. Get the contact information of the local cops where your bees were dropped off. Try and find out which grower(s) was involved. Contact them, let them know what has happened and if they have any information. If they refuse to give any information advise them that you intend to file a criminal complaint and have an investigation launched. Document everyone you speak with, every message you leave. This means times, numbers dialed, and exactly what message you left or the content of any conversation. 

Next if you have gotten no where in 24 hrs. File a report of theft with the local and state police. Also notify the California Department of Agriculture about the incident and that you filed a report of theft with the local and state police. You will need information when you file your report so get anything you can. This includes the brokers names, addresses, telephone numbers he used. When you contacted him, etc, etc. Any and all details. Also you need to figure out what your lose was from pollination, shipping and the cost of equipment and hives so have that ready. Break it down. Just the equipment and bees alone make it a felony. Additionally, file a report with your local police. If you do this first, have their case number for the cops in Calf. and vise versa if you file in Calf. first give their case number to your locals. Check with each department. Because of the interstate nature of the theft and the amount you may be able to get your local FBI involved. It can't hurt to call. 

If the broker starts getting calls from the cops in two different states and the FBI he may decide to get your bees back to you with your fees. 

Find an attorney that can work this kind of case. If they have absconded with your bees you will want to file a civil action against your broker and any grower that is involved. If the growers are not a part of this and it was the broker then they will put pressure on the broker but either way, file against everyone involved. Remember to keep an accounting of your time and any expenses for this process. You should claim those and your attorneys fees in your civil suit. 

Hope that helps. PM me if you need any more guidance in this. This type of thing boils my blood.


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## Allen Dick

Good advice, I would say. Just a word of caution, though, In some jurisdictions, threatening to file criminal charges is an offense. Either you do or you do not, but threatening is not allowable. Saying that you have spoken with police is OK, though, AFAIK.

Personally, I would call one of the several reputable brokers in the area, even if they were not involved at all to this point. They are good guys and have an interest in fair dealing even if they do not personally get a cut. (PM me if you don't know any).



> If he refuses to speak to you or return your calls leave him a message that if he doesn't return your calls within 24 hrs you will be filing criminal charges against him.


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## LSPender

*More info*

Please refrane from further posts on this specific topic.

As being versed in this specific situation, not all facts have been presented to the forum. 

I have personally seen this group of bees, because I needed extra hives to fullfill a contact. Upon inspection of the hives in question in the Bakersfield area, I refused to put them on my truck. After inspecting 28 pallets and finding over half empty or 1 frame of bees I quit and went home. Out of this group I found 6 hives that would minimaly meet pollination standards.

Again please leave this topic alone, the parties involved need to figure out a solution and information given based on partial info serves no one. And yes they are in contact with each other.

Thank you


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## Bob Nelson

*Welcome to the club*

Been there and been had too.

I am with the rest about getting on the first flight out unannounced. Wish we would have done that in hindsight. I was ready to go but it did not work out. Make it work if you want any chance of coming out on the deal.

Different broker sounds like the problem if the bees did deteriorate. Previous guy probably took care of business and this one did not. On a deal like ours and yours, one is at the mercy of the person on the other end.

Shipping from Nebr during the height of fuel prices was $4100 18 months ago. Also have loading/unloading but sounds like they are channeling their season's losses through you.

Our situation was with a beekeeper (third generation but newbie commercial operator). Besides not knowing what he was doing was (in hindsight) unscrupulous. Said all the right things. 3 of us in on the deal. One of the others said he has never been took on judging character as bad as we got it. In our case we have identified at least 2 others he got (one a regular contributor on beesource). He rebounded as only part of his eggs were in this basket. We and the other are sideline/small commercial are still reeling.

Another long time commercial operation in our area got took too. He (third generation commercial beekeeper) had a successful long term relationship with a beekeeper. When management of that operation transferred to the sons he took a huge hit. Broke him.

Not whining, just educating. Get out there if you want to resurrect anything that might be left.

Bob Nelson


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## Bob Nelson

I was typing my reply and missed the previous post. My info is still relevant. Bees maybe did deteriorate but one has to wonder why.

So far as us and the other operators I cited the bees sent were exceptional and crap came home. The woes of our industry may be at fault but in our case it was poor practices and pretty much being ripped off.

Bob Nelson


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## buzz100

*Is that BOTH sides of the story?*

Do you really have both sides of the story? No one on here has the contract to review to see the specifics. We should not play "Arm chair Lawyers". Maybe CCD did really happen--bees do die--but typically QUALITY SURVIVES. I have to agree with LSPENDER. He said he saw first hand--that counts. I've been doing this for years and have seen loss. Some people don't always send out what they say they are sending to us here. Here is something to remember: 1. Get all the facts! 2. Talking it out is always the best answer.


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## Steelton Bee Man

To LSPENDER

I would like more info about you so called info about our bees. These were strong hives that were feed syrup and in very good shape. They were state inspected here for diseases. The hives that I did not deem strong enough are still in my yards, living and well. Please explain your comment, sounds almost as if I have offended you by being concerned about my bees. I don't know how you run your bee operation, but i am not a commercial beekeeper. I keep my bees, i don't just have bees. They are properly taken care of and were ready to send out. You commented that people should not be posting on this topic. Maybe it isn't that important to you, but please be a little more understanding. Some of our local beekeepers lost all their hives in this fiasco. Also i would like to talk to you on the phone.



Thanks Ed


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## dbest

I've posted names on here before and I'll do it agian. The same thing happend to me in 2006-2007. I rented bees to Scott Nelson, formerly of Nelson Family Apiaries, Wine Country Honey and now Bear Foot Honey Farm. I rented the bees directly to him as a beekeeper and stole the bees. Shook packages, Spread foul brood frames in my hives. Then loaded them on a truck with Adee's nets that didn't have any skirting so the whole load was almost dead when they got here. He still owes me $12500 as well as keeping 8 pallets of my bees. I've sucked it up as an education on my part and figure that as long as he's out there working people over I'll be here letting them know. 

Dennie Best
Best Honey Farms
[email protected]
517-712-4920


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## Tom G. Laury

*Interesting conversation*

With a very large client:

Somewhere, in a small town jail in Georgia, ( USA ), is a russo-american who played fast and loose with other peoples' bees and money. Apparently the state troopers came to Calif and remanded him to custody. He is now awaiting an appearance before the county judge.

Even so, I'm going to small claims court this morning trying to enforce a judgement against the only grower that has ever stiffed me in over 30 yrs pollinating. The man has a gambling problem, and I may never see a dime.


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## Keith Jarrett

Tom G. Laury said:


> With a very large client:
> 
> Somewhere, in a small town jail in Georgia, ( USA ), is a russo-american who played fast and loose with other peoples' bees and money. .


Hey Tom, would that be some rouskies from Sacramento that tryed there hand at bee broking last year?


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## Tom G. Laury

Keith that was the hometown mentioned, first name SirGay (?)

...small town in Georgia, I wonder what the food is like. Probably safer than the street though!


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## Keith Jarrett

Tom, that is good. I follow up for the guys back there,rouskies also had a ad in blue diamond pollinator list. I sure hope it works out for owner of the bees. 
We sure need more ending like this one


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## Tom G. Laury

Keith Jarrett said:


> Tom, that is good. I follow up for the guys back there,rouskies also had a ad in blue diamond pollinator list. I sure hope it works out for owner of the bees.
> We sure need more ending like this one


Thats a big 10 4

I have now convinced myself that $100 bees ( alms) will be a good thing because we need to do some housecleaning around here.


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## Keith Jarrett

Tom, i've also heard the rouskies have been caught again on the west side around lost hills about two weeks ago, they also were from Sacramento.
Waiting to see something in the ag papers but nothing yet.


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## Tom G. Laury

*Russo Gangsters*

There have been many many cases of Russian mobsters moving in to lucrative trades, short term of course; best one I've heard yet would be the outfit that set up a chain of ATM machines in ( where else ) little russia in New York, collected untold numbers of ATM #s, made simultaneous withdrawals over a long weekend, long gone, feds know who it is but he is free man today. This was a major scam.


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## Missoura

rip offs happen every year in almonds. Most of these can be avoided by getting contracts and hiring your own trucker.

Next hives crash in transit. 5 to 6 % is normal for good bees. We figure most die from the cold while being on the front of the load but not sure why as ALL looked good before shipment.

Next although a state inspector said the bees were ok did he check for varroa load and nosema spore counts. I think not. 

Going to California is the best solution. Then you should be able to tell if you were ripped off ( happens in almonds at times) or your bees crashed for whatever reasons ether before they arrived or soon after ( happens in almonds every year)

Good luck with your problem.


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## tecumseh

snip..
We were told that they were full of disease and also ccd. We have not had much CCD around here, but it beats all, if when the bees leave they take the frames with them.

tecumseh:
very curious thread.

to my fellow mountaineer... I suspect like us ****** you will need to just persevere thru this problem you find yourself in.... 

as to my above snip... if the science folks cannot tell me what ccd is, how would some broker know or suspect that ccd was the cause of the decline of your bees? sounds like thinly contrive EXCUSE going on here.

now.... everyone join in the the refrain of the california pollinator's song..

all the gold in california....
is in a vault in the middle of beverly hills
in someone else's name 
so if your goin'.. to california
it don't matter where you've played before
califonia a brand new game.

ps... with a bit of footwork and planning and the building of personal relationships a better system can be established than working thru brokers or middlemen who may or maynot know squat about a honeybee.


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## RobertLorge

*WV Ripped Off Bee Dispute in CA Almond Pollination 2009*

Dear Ed and WV Beekeepers: 

Email me the details at: [email protected]

With my kindest best wishes, I am,
Attorney Robert Gerald Lorge
CAPITAL HILL FARMS: LORGE HONEYBEES
501 West Willow Street, PO BOX 176
BEAR CREEK, WISCONSIN 54922-0176
920-739-8080 Cellular and Weekends
608-244-0608 M-F
*[email protected] * for legal issues
http://www.LORGEFORWISCONSIN.com is Lorge Honeybees website



Steelton Bee Man said:


> I am part of a group of beeks for West Virginia. We sent 400 hives to Ca. through a broker in Ohio. Our bees were inspected before they went for diseases, strenth, etc. They were delivered in December. The growers claimed they were in good shape. A month ago we received good reports. Now that the pollination season out there is over the growers claim that all our bees are diseased, most of them dead and they are not going to pay a cent. It will cost us $44 for each hive to get them back.
> 
> The main person running this operation has sent bees to the same farm for 7 years the only difference was the bee broker was different this year.
> 
> Much of this sounds fishy. I was told that a load of bees only cost 7,000 dollars to haul. That is roughly $16 a hive, not $44.
> 
> It seems that we sent bees, they used them, then stole them.
> 
> Is there anything we can do? Lawsuit? Should we send someone to inspect them?
> 
> Any suggestions would help.
> 
> Thanks
> Ed


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## Keith Jarrett

Why does that post not surprize me.


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## Tom G. Laury

*Small town jail*

in Georgia.

I'm still trying to imagine what the food is like.


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## buzz100

*Lawyers too?*

Maybe you should just stay out of it and let them work it out...You might be surprised of how things just may work out without a lawyer.:no:


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## tecumseh

*lawyer haters?*

with + $40000 at stake in pollination fees and what appears to be $40000 in dead bees my not so new math says a possible loss approaching $100000 and you think this is going to be worked out without a lawyer.. or two? good luck on that one pilgrim.

I am certain (uh huh) none of the naysayers here would hire a lawyer if someone owned them $100000.


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## Keith Jarrett

I am certain (uh huh) none of the naysayers here would hire a lawyer if someone owned them $100000.[/QUOTE said:


> I think I would hire a local lawyer THAT knew Calif law, the court systems and judges in this area.
> 
> This is like getting info off a trix cereal box.


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## JohnK and Sheri

Careful, Keith, about making assumptions, you might get sued. 
Seriously, I agree one should hire a lawyer based on their qualifications, but without looking at the resume you have no idea of one's expertise or experience. The lawyer who posted looks like an experienced pollinator (JPK, if you are still looking for a pollination contract, there is one on his site) and may be quite familiar with CA laws concerning pollination.
Sheri


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## RobertLorge

*Pollination Contracts and Lawyers*

Personally I think that the industry will only survive if there is a move to paying for pollination on a frame basis. That does not mean that 5 frames of bees is worth half of 10 frames, but it certainly is not worth nothing to the Orchard grower either. 

Yes, I do pollination with my own bees.

Yes, I am an accomplished litigator, the first "Ford Bronco" roll over case, and Firestone and Warrington Rubber and Ford Seatbelt cases, and other litigation and PI cases. 

But that is not the point here. Here you have someone, several someones, that may have lost almost $100,000. If there is one thing most of us can not stand it is theft, if there was any, or that type of reckless or gross mismanagement, if any, or a failure on behalf of Mother Nature and the conditions on the ground, if that is what it turns out to be, that, no matter which of these it is, does not bode well for ANY OF US planning on doing pollination in California next year. 

Let us gather all the facts and see how we can solve this problem and in the process make the world better for all of us Beekeepers, before we all perish in these "interesting times".


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## tecumseh

a robert snip..
Let us gather all the facts and see how we can solve this problem and in the process make the world better for all of us Beekeepers, before we all perish in these "interesting times".

tecumseh:
exactly.

and the best of springs to all you beekeepers out there... 

and little prayer goes out from this hillbilly to the one's that took the loss.. hope everything turns out well.


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## buzz100

*Facts first*

I am not a lawyer hater--only want to get the facts first. My question is-- did *HE* actually lose 400 hives? He said he was part of a group that sent out some hives. How big--or small of a part? Did he send out good hives in the beginning? See--unless you have the facts, and ALL of the facts--you are making assumptions of which you have no basic understanding. Bee careful--yes, bee protective--yes, but trying to conjur up a Rottweiler with rabies and aids when it is really a tea cup pomeranian. NO GOOD for anyone:no:. No one likes a theif--but people really don't like mudslingers and gossips!


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## Kieck

Intriguing thread, and I for one (morbid curiosity?) hope that this thread is not closed and hope that those of us who only read this thread on this topic will have more of the details revealed in the future. Such as, what really happened to the bees in question? What conclusion(s) were reached? I'm not thinking dollar amounts or personal information like that, but just some general outcomes.

I'm a little hung up on how we even identify "the largest farm in America." Is this the farm that generates the most profit? The farm with the greatest land area? The farm with the greatest potential gross revenue? Some combination of factors?


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## Tom G. Laury

*No Kidding*

Well frankly buzz, steeltons' post seemed sincere and open, questioning but not accusing, so many here "related". No harm intended. It is possible that ONE of the posters here is wrong, first time for everything! 

Everyone is dying for someone to be a little more specific how "bout you?


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## RobertLorge

Yes indeed, the details will inform and educate, let's see if we can get some good rules from all this to live by. 

Also re: the largest farm, all of those factors.


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## tecumseh

yes sir information should have VALUE to a number of folks here.

without good information we might expect to see the same problem arise again and again and I for one can not figure out how that might be a positive thing.

the pather goes back to lurking...


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## Joel

tecumseh said:


> the pather goes back to lurking...


 


There are great risks in long hauling honeybees, I think there are greater risks in trying to quell information. If Mr. Pender knows information perhaps he should put forth what he has so everyone can make a judgement. It's not about a witch hunt here, it's about beekeepers being better educated. I don't have a dog in this fight so which ever party is in the wrong (possibly even just mistaken) everyone else learning from those mistakes is a good thing. If someone is cheating and they get caught thanks to the efforts here that's all the better.

I'm always suspicious when someone tells me to stop talking about something because they have the facts and I don't but they have no intention of illuminating my (alleged) ignorance. Why even comment? A fellow beesource beek asked for help, we responded!


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## RobertLorge

That is right Joel, a fellow beekeeper asked for our help, and we should all respond and we should all try to help if we can and learn from it ourselves, you are so right. My points exactly. And from there, let's throw in helpful ideas how to improve this whole system for all.


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## LSPender

*Comprehension*

....all details are in the posts and information refered to. check out the origins of the artcles by Mr. Oliver, "California Dreaming" in the ABJ. Might find it in a post or 2 on this site. 

Also, the private business deals between parties is NONE of your business. I have specificaly left names out.

Now I broke my word of no more posts on subject, but the lasts few post bother me.


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## Tom G. Laury

*Doing Business*

So much still depends on trust between people, in business as well as in marriage.
When that trust is violated, there are consequences, no surprise.
Hard to build, easy to tear down.


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## LSPender

*Additional thought*

Just so you all know,

EVERYONE (THAT MEANS ALL) involved in this mentioned deal lost money, their are no winners.


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## RobertLorge

Well lets hope Larry is right. Still doen't tell us what exactly happened step by step and everyones two cents on better methods.


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## tecumseh

robert lorge snip..
I agree no one takes care of your bees like you do

tecumseh:
economic theory and practice suggest that they should if there is an economic incentive to do so. just casually the dispute sounds as if it involves neglect (by folks who are paid not to be neglectful) more so than anything boarding on criminal.

it seems mr pender is only interested in throttling the dialogue and the possibility that someone might learn something from this casualty. it seems mr pender is also confusing real loss with opportunity loss.


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## buzz100

*Seriously*

Mr Pender is not the only one that knows details about this specific issue. You see I am a beekeeper and also a Professional Private Investigator. (All names will be left out--you know who you are) I have personally spoken to most of the parties involved. I am aware that the beeks from WV have sent to California very poor hives. They have expected to get paid for, what I believe to be an intentional deception against this broker. I have seen these hives and pictures of the conditions of these hives: broken and unfilled frames, frames with undrawn foundation, supers filled with burr comb, chalkbrood, evidence of starvation, nosema, not to mention that ropy/scally stuff! If anything was removed I am glad he did it! He was looking out for the welfare and greater good of the balance of the hives! He even went as far as to rehab them and at his own expense provided feeding yards to the unrented hives that Mr Pender spoke about so they wouldn't die--you should be glad you get back live hives!

I am also aware that he has contacted the WV Department of Agriculture and has repeatedly requested assistance in this matter. Classically they "REFUSED TO GET INVOLVED".

The fellow from Ohio is clearly being railroaded. I am sorry to him for having to deal with this whole matter. I have seen his contracts and he is so much in his right--he should sue all of you that have defamed his character.

I am aware of treachery against this individual by people that he trusted. I have also seen contracts with the beeks from WV--they have obviously defaulted on several issues in their contract--so what they did was make a false accusation against this individual in a smoke screen distraction so that he would be so busy dealing with it that he couldn't conduct his normal business. I also know for a fact, and have seen with my own eyes the person that he thought he could trust actually place bees and frames from other hives into his own hives then claimed the broker did it in order to defray attention from himself.

So now--what do you think about that! Everybody wants to know the truth--well--THERE IT IS!:doh:


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## buzz100

*and to top that...*

Typically I don't get into someone else's fight--but the injustice that is being presented here is an atrocity. I was so concerned about getting to the bottom of this I put in 20 hours of my own time to find out all of these facts. It is amazing what happens when having a cup of coffee and listening and keeping your mouth shut. Maybe the rest of you could do the same:lookout:


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## alpha6

If I sent my broker hives as bad as you say these from WV are (and I'm not saying they weren't) he wouldn't accept them and either put them in a dead out yard or send them back. Our brokers notify us as soon as the hives are graded which have made the grade and which haven't. There is no combining of hives or anything and any feeding that the broker feels needs to be done is requested before any feeding is done. 

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I think it demonstrates that sending bees to Almonds should not be taken lightly and that both beeks and brokers should take steps to protect themselves.


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## Tom G. Laury

*The guy from Ohio*

I do know there was a shady character in the Delano area looking for bees this January. He told a local beekeeper that in addition to a commission he would remove several frames from each colony to bolster his own. This is a huge red flag. Local guy passed.


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## Tom G. Laury

*Magnum PI*

Just curious, how does a detective remove someones' rights?


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## loggermike

This just keeps getting better and better.opcorn:


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## Conchis

I've never seen a more entertaining run of posts. Amazing


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## Tom G. Laury

*It's California*

We should make a movie!


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## RobertLorge

Finally we are learning something, at least from one side of the story. We should wait to hear the other side. Then see what lessons can be learned that will benefit the entire industry so that we individually and maybe as an industry through our associations and organizations can make sure this sort of thing does not happen again, whatever happened, since it appears this is not what should happen. If I understand LSPEnder, he makes it appear that this sort of thing is just a random chance or risk, and I think we all agree that random chance and risks are what good and MODERN management and independent mutually agreed operating procedures could avoid, for them, for us, for everyone in the future. So, we wait. (I like Loggermike's animated smily face icon, imho)

So we wait for, as Paul Harvey used to say: THE REST OF THE STORY.


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## JohnK and Sheri

Some of you might have noticed your posts have disappeared from this thread. Some were deleted due to being off topic, uncivil or inflammatory, but some were moved to a new thread on this forum titled "Can we prevent the "Bees Ripped Off" nightmares?.
I will stick that thread to the top for a day or two so it is easy to find, then let it float.
Sheri


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## Joel

Beesource is about educating beekeepers. Somehow I think a story about a group of everyday Joe beekeepers who likely put alot of work and risk to make money in California and lost out big time and asked for help is our business and is a good lesson for all of us. Don't you? If we help our friend from WV as well then that's great.


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## Joel

buzz100 said:


> So now--what do you think about that! Everybody wants to know the truth--well--THERE IT IS!:doh:


So a group of beekeepers decided to do a Bernie Madoff on growers in California by intentionally sending a tractor trailer load of substandard hives to California. So what you're saying is they are agri-terrorists? 

Anyone here buying that theory? I know I'm not!


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## RobertLorge

Me neither (they certainly are not "Made-Offs"), but I do want to wait and see all the facts from all sides before making any judgments, and then pondering it all, to see if there are solutions, remedies, and most important prevention tips from we all will benefit from helping here.


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## high rate of speed

Whats that old saying if it bleeds it leads.:scratch:


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## Tom G. Laury

*One Better*

Old Sayings: The Rule of the Seven P's

Proper Planning & Preparation Prevents Particularly Poor Performance.

Particularly is often substituted with a more colorful adverb.


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## Ishi

*7 P's*

Not the way my Retired Marine Caption said it!!!


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## Steelton Bee Man

*Bees ripped off update!*

Well it has been some time since i posted an update. The reason is that i was asked not to from the others in our group. We did find many of our bees, in almonds of all places, pollinating, of all things. Many of our hives were stolen. Many that were not had the middle frames pulled and replaced with empty frames. The word that i am getting is several thousand dollars switched hands from the farmer to the broker and that the broker kept it. I am not trying to defame or incriminate nor slander anyone, but am just giving the message i received.

Our broker sent me a paper saying that my bees all were infested with every imaginable brood disease, etc. That they were dead and if i wanted to pay $44 for each hive he would arrange for them to come back. We declined and a group from our group went out personally and retrived our bees. We still had to pay $44 a hive to get them back. My bees had no disease and were strong. I personally received 70% of my colonies back, and they were strong enough that i needed to super them as soon as they came back. 

Those who say they have personal knowledge of our bees and they were not strong enough are mistaken about our load. I am not saying that there were not other loads from WV that were not up to par, i can't speak for those, but ours were. The so called private investigator who "knows" so much either is friends with the theives or inspected some of our bees after they had frames stolen. But my bees were full and strong and pollinated almonds, at this point for free.

Hard to tell how many nucs were sold or packages shook out of our bees.

I want to thank all those who were concerned and offered to go and look for my bees. It means a lot.


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## Tom G. Laury

Sure sounds criminal to me. Way beyond the bounds of poor handling.


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## Beeslave

Steelton Bee Man

At least you made some progress on the whole situation but why did you have to still pay $44.00 for each hive when they are your property?


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## Jesse

Beeslave said:


> Steelton Bee Man
> 
> At least you made some progress on the whole situation but why did you have to still pay $44.00 for each hive when they are your property?



I assume the $44 was for transportation back to WV.


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## RobertLorge

This problem may be more widespread than we have previously been led to believe....those of us that question "California Dreamin" and other excuses. In Science, there are many theories, the general scientific or logical rule is that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Ed "Steelton Man" offers not only the simplest explanation but also eye witness verification. 

There is a joke about a wife who walks in on her cheating husband, and the cheating husband says to his wife, nothing happened, who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes? 

This will be a good learning experience as we now get more details and come up with various methods to protect ourselves from this.


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## loggermike

Frames missing? Sounds like theft to me. I sure hope you bring criminal charges against the perps. There have always been a few thieves hanging around this business.Every now and then ,they get a 3 year date with Bubba.


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## JohnK and Sheri

I am wondering about the $44 also. That seems really high for shipping one way. Does this include the trip out also?
From here in Wisconsin I think we paid about $4700 one way. WV is further of course but even at double that the numbers just don't jive unless it is both ways and not a full load.
Truly an unfortunate situation.
Sheri


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## Steelton Bee Man

I am wondering about the $44 each hive myself. In fact i paid $44 for hives i did not even receive. I am expecting a return on part if not all of that. Thanks!


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## Tom G. Laury

*Steelton*

I must say you are a very patient man.


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## BEES4U

*Frames missing?*

Can you provide us with the brand or brands ID?
Thank you,
Ernie


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## Tom G. Laury

*Jesse James*

There was a fairly famous bee thief here in the central valley who told the judge at sentencing that he wanted to be remembered as the Jesse James of the beekeeping industry. One of his favorite scams was contracting for pollination, 50% on delivery. When grower calls for delivery, just cruise a few miles around, move em in, 50%, cash check, JOB IS DONE. Don't see much difference here.


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## RobertLorge

Very good point, it takes less time to brand iron the top bar of ten frames than to brand iron the wood hive box. All good management BEST PRACTICES as this points out, and it makes what is usually misdemeanor theft automatically felony theft in several jurisdictions if the equipment stolen had a registered brand i.e. brandname or regisration number on it. Get the 1 inch or for frames 3/4th inch minimum height all in bold letters like arial block is usually best.


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## Steelton Bee Man

We had no brands on the frames themselves. Bad idea, i now know all too well. Some of my frames say Bragg on them, but very few.


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## jean-marc

*Bragg?*

Is that like the Bragg lumber company? They also own large tracts of blueberry land on the east Coast. They have their own bees on the Canadian side, not sure that they own any in the US. It's cheaper to rent than to own.

Jean-Marc


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## Steelton Bee Man

Bragg as in a now deseased bee keeper who helped me and sold me my first hive Milfred Bragg, formally of Oklahoma and moved to WV.


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