# Rabbet Joints on Hive Boxes, How To?



## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

rabbet jointslast very well. glue them and use staples or galvanized nails. they are much easier to make with no cons. with the glue they are just as strong as finger joints.. the front and rear boards are full width of the hive. these are rabbeted for the side boards. the side boards are just a plain board.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

Fasten with glue and 4D nails, clamping squeezes out too much glue for a great bond. Deck screws are a little better than ring shank nails.
Boards tend to straighten the rings. So put the outside of the tree in.
Cut the sides 19 1/8 square and rabbet the ends the same depth as the frame rest. Frame rest is 5/8 by 3/8, end rabbets are 3/4 by 3/8. I could send you plans.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

So you both like the single rabbet on the end boards rather than a rabbet on both the ends and the sides?

And you like the end grain exposed on the sides (meaning the edges of the fronts exposed) rather than the end grain of the side boards?

Am I getting this correctly?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

yes this is the way bee supply manufactures make them. It is the strongest and proven. when dadant was in umatilla fla they made hundred of thousands this way.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Solomon Parker said:


> And you like the end grain exposed on the sides (meaning the edges of the fronts exposed) rather than the end grain of the side boards?


It has nothing to do with exposure. Either way has the same exposure. It has to do with strength and fabrication. If you cut a rabbet on the side boards, you will have a 3/8" gap where the frame rest is. Rabbets on the front and back give you more side strength when prying against it with a hive tool trying to pry frames over as you will have fasteners at a right angle to the board (side) that you're prying against.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Alright, sounds good. Rabbets will save me a lot of development time, fabrication time, and probably frustration too. 

Now I just need a new dado blade. Yes, I know it can be done without, but it takes longer and is subject to a bit more frustration. I've done it before. I'm saving up my Christmas money (I always ask for cash).


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## beehonest (Nov 3, 2011)

I have both types, I prefere Rabbets also. I screw, glue, and run a bead of pure silicon over the ouside of the joint to keep water out. Yeh I am going to get me a dado blade also, router will work but no where near as fast or easy.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

When I'm making my own supers from raw lumber, I generally prefer making them with rabbet cuts instead of finger joints. I either make rabbets in three edges of the end boards (3/4" wide x 3/8" deep), or (3/8" wide x 3/8" deep) in the side edges and (5/8" wide x 3/8" deep) across the top, with (3/8" wide x 3/8" deep) on each end of the side boards.

I use Titebond III glue, then clamp them while I add a few coated deck screws to hold them firmly until the glue sets well.

When the appearance of the finished product is important, locking miter joints are my choice, and there is also a locking miter that can be cut on a simple table saw -- this only necessitates cutting rabbets for the frame rests. Table saw lock miter.


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## New Ky Beekeeper (Jun 27, 2011)

I am making 20 double brood boxes this winter for spring. This subject has convenced me to go with Rabbet joints!


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

Hi Solomon. You don't need a dado blade to make the cuts for the rabbet joints. Just a table saw with a fence.
Set your fence with 3/8" from the outside of the blade to the fence with it cutting 3/4" deep, or 5/8" for the rabbet
for the frame rest. Make the cut through the end grain first. Then adjust the blade to cut 3/8" deep and adjust the
fence to 3/4" from the fence and cut out the block that's left in the rabbet. Kinda like the lug on frames but, it'll
cut all the way through to leave the waste loose without cutting too deep to make a groove in the corner of the rabbet.
Save the 70 bucks for the dado blade and buy more wood.


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

Oops! Got mixed up about you already having a dado blade. Sorry.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

All I have ever used are rabbet joints, titebond III, and galvanized nails. They work great, save time, and haven't broken even with full deeps. I had to adjust outside dimensions a bit but no problems so far. I also prime and paint all my hive bodies too, but honestly its worked for me.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I have a dado blade that came with my second hand table saw, but it's old and doesn't cut evenly. It will work, but I'd really like a new one to help with getting things square. I've been experimenting with making frame end bars. I've made boxes in the past with the table saw, but I'm looking to step it up. I am going to build a bunch of Queen Castle style mating nucs for next year and I'm still in the planning stages.


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## AmericasBeekeeper (Jan 24, 2010)

I have dado sets, but I was not going to go into Steven's fence method. I use it for ends and frame top bars. It is riskier than the dado but cuts cleaner with less chips. Just remember saws cut flesh faster and better than they cut wood. Be careful!


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## blainenay (Oct 14, 2011)

Barry said:


> Rabbets on the front and back give you more side strength when prying against it with a hive tool trying to pry frames over as you will have fasteners at a right angle to the board (side) that you're prying against.


That's the way I've made 'em for nearly 50 years. Most of my original boxes are still in use. I currently use TiteBond II glue. I've always used 6d cement-coat nails into the corners from both directions. I've been known to drop full deep suppers with no damage to the box.

I've made my own frames for just as long. The design came from the 4-H leader who got me started in beekeeping way back then. They aren't self-spacing, but they're easy to make. I have a diagram of the frame at www.IronBee.us/PDF/langstroth frame plans simplified.pdf.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

blainenay,

Thanks for sharing those details - I'll give some a try.


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## standman (Mar 14, 2008)

I have done both styles (rabbetted and box joints). One consideration no one has mentioned is the condition of your boards. If they are flat, the rabbet joints work well. If they are cupped, the box joints will allow you to pull them together more easily. When rabbetting cupped boards, you have to "roll" them as they pass over the blade to maintain the 3/8ths depth of cut. Screws will certainly help to pull the cupping out of the board when you assemble.

Another thing: If you decide to put three rabbits on the short sides, make sure you fill in the space that Barry was referring to. (You will see it when you assemble) These are perfect "homes" for the hive beetle. It is much simpler to only rabbet the frame rests on these pieces.


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## scokat (Apr 19, 2011)

i've been using box joints, but they get tedious to cut out. Does anyone have plans or diagrams for the rabbit cut on hive bodies?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I will as soon as I get some time to change the CAD drawings.


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## Nantom670 (Jul 29, 2011)

I use the table saw also. Let's take the front board and lay it long ways on your table saw. Set you fence so that your board is 5/8 of an inch over your blade which is only 3/8 of an inch high. This will give you your bottom grove for your frames. Now turn your cut side of your board on its long edge with the uncut part next to your fence. Bring the fence in toward the blade so that the bottom of 5/8" cut is just at the edge of where you are now going to cut down into the board. Your blade will now be up 5/8 of an inch and that will cut away the excess which will give you 3/8" rabbet with a 5/8" deep cut. This will allow your frames to set 1/8" lower than the top of your super. If you want to change the depth or the width you can, it will cut the same way. Do a couple of practice cuts and you will see how fast this can go. It works the same for the rabbet's of each side 3/8 deep leaves 3/8 when using 3/4" boards. Then cut in 3/4 of an inch so that your long side-boards slip into the front and back boards. The long boards will be 19 1/8" long added to the 3/8" front and 3/8" back boards will equal 19 7/8". Adjust the long board for whatever overall length you want. Just remember the front and back boards will total 3/4". Take your time, after a few practice cuts they go very fast. Cut each side boards at the same time will save resetting your fence.

If you do not have an insert setup where your blade does not excess space on the right side, change your fence to the side which is solid when cutting the rabbets for the side boards. That lets them sit on something solid as your push them through. Your hands will be well above the blade. Send me an email and I can call you, I have free long distance. I need to learn how to post pictures. Cannot find where it show album to click on.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

scokat said:


> Does anyone have plans or diagrams for the rabbit cut on hive bodies?


These are extremely easy joints to make. Probably why no one has drawings.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The long boards must be exactly 19 1/8" to use a standard 3/8 wide frame rest ledge and maintain proper bee space between sidebars and inside of hive body. 

The outside total length of the box will vary according to stock thickness but that is the least critical dimension. Get the inside correct!


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

The reason rabbet joints are used is that they are faster, easier, and require less expensive equipment to make. It is fairly well known that in making drawers, basically what you are making here, the better joints are in this order from weakest to strongest. Butt joint, dado or rabbet jont, finger joint, and dovetail. There are a lot of variations on these and the quality of the joint spans everything from you can't get them to hold together reliably with any amount of fasteners (butt joint) to you do not need any fasteners at all (dovetail).

The plus of a rabbet joint is that it is fast and easy. Not as fast and easy as a butt joint but much less trouble than a finger joint. The down side is that it is not a lot stronger than a butt joint. You also weaken the wood on the side that you cut the dado. It does make it possible to fasten the pieces at 90 degrees to each other which is a significant improvement over a butt joint. thinning the wood at the dado negates some of that advantage.

Not the best joint and not the worst. But when it all balances out it is the most common joint used for forming a box. For the application of making dirt cheap and fast hive boxes. it is actually the obvious choice.

If I am going to take the time to make my own hives. I will use finger joints. Part of the reason for me to make my own is to make them better. That is just me and it does take considerably more time.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

What would the difference be if you cut 1/4" or 1/8" rather than 3/8" on the rabbet? Oh never mind, I just realized that there would be a gap at the top on the frame rest.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

If I read right, Steve's method in post 11 is NOT recomended and is in fact quite dangerous.
When making any cut, but especially rabbits the free piece or "drop" should never be between the fence and the blade. It can be sent back at the operator with devastating force.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

windfall said:


> It can be sent back at the operator with devastating force.


If you must do something like that, stand to the side, perpendicular to the blade. I have been hit by things like that in the past, and it's no me gusto.

Just for fun once, I dropped a small block of wood on the blade when it was running, and it threw it all the way out to the end of the garden, about 150 feet. Don't do it.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

With less than 3/8 frame rest you risk having the frame fall down and jamb. With wider rests the hive body to frame side bar clearance is less than bee space. The lang standard frame is 19" end to end of top bars, thus the recommended 19 1/8" dimension to the developed distance of the extreme fore and aft width of the frame rest gap. You just run into too many complications trying to work from box exterior dimension. Especially so when you take advantage of the much cheaper "as sawn" wood.


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## VolunteerK9 (Aug 19, 2011)

If you do decide to buy a dado blade, buy a stacked set as opposed to a wobble type. The wobble dado is supposed to be adjustable, which its is, but not reliable enough for consistent cuts. You can buy a cheap stacked Skil set for around $30. A Freud cuts way better but will cost you a cool $100 or better.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Steven Ogborn said:


> You don't need a dado blade to make the cuts for the rabbet joints.


I agree, and even though I have a dado blade set, I wouldn't use it when making a rabbet joint. Excessive blade friction and drag. Much faster, cleaner and safer to make two passes with a standard blade.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Now that I have two table saws, I can do that with some speed. However, I'd still like to use the dado. I need the sawdust.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Solomon Parker said:


> I need the sawdust.


Composting??


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?262354-Heat-from-Compost

Yes.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Barry said:


> I agree, and even though I have a dado blade set, I wouldn't use it when making a rabbet joint. Excessive blade friction and drag.


Out of curiosity, which kind of dado set do you have? I have a used blade set that is pretty cheap and it seems worn out to the point that the outside blades are dull enough to scorch the wood with a single pass. Also, the chippers have been resharpened in such a manner that they're no longer even, if they ever were. I was thinking of buying a new nice set, http://powertoolsshop8.com/best-price-freud-sd308-8-inch-safety-dados-sale/ I'm looking at this one because of the blade hook angle and it's highly rated on Amazon.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

That one looks pretty close to what I have. I have a 8" Freud set that cost me $75 twenty years ago. They last forever. Pays to keep them very sharp since you're taking a lot of wood off at one time.


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## honeyman46408 (Feb 14, 2003)

http://www.harborfreight.com/8-inch...o-blade-set-with-saws-and-chippers-40745.html

I have cut hundreds of rabbets with a set like this


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Hmm, tempting, but I've seen too many Harbor Freight items head south way too fast to trust. Very tempting price.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

http://www.lowes.com/pd_98584-353-7...o&Ntt=dado&N=0&langId=-1&storeId=10151&rpp=24 

Same here, cut hundreds of rabbets, used them to make 1000+ end bars and machine top bars and they still are sharp. I have no complaints with them.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

You won't be making box joints with those Skil blades!


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

They do look pretty cheap. No carbide blade tips. At least the Harbor Freight ones had teeth.

I'm still looking at the Freud. I have troubles with using the two cut technique because my old (newer) table saw is not the best around that plate where the blade sticks out. So I end up with grooves of varying depths in the frame rest. With the dado, I can set it and forget it and expect to get near perfect results because I'm using the larger flat surface of the table. I just need to make sure I sort out the lumber and get good flat stuff.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Good call Solomon. Dado is the way to go IMHO.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

The Freud blades have nice big carbide teeth so you have lots of sharpening that can be done.

Make yourself an insert that fits right.
http://woodgears.ca/table_saw/throat_insert.html
http://woodgears.ca/delta_saw/insert.html
http://www.wwch.org/Technique/Hutch/TableSawInserts.htm

There are more.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

It's the $100 saw I bought when I started keeping bees. I don't think it's worth it. The new (older) one is much better with a steel throat that's adjustable.

I just thought about this, but I've never bought a lid or bottom board. I made all my own. Interesting. And from now on, I'll be making all my own boxes. For 32 hives, 7 mediums per hive, that makes 224, 60 of which I can cut down from deeps. That leaves 164 at about $6 each makes about $1000. That means I need to sell about eight nucs. I'm finally getting to the point where my bees can pay their way. Yay! I'm not sure I want to make my own frames though. They are a lot of work and there are a lot of cuts to mess up. And I only have 9.8 fingers left.


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Almost thirty years ago I bought a cheap, $99 table saw (I still don't even know the make) because I needed to crosscut a few pieces of wood for a project I was working on back then. The fence was always weak and soon failed, yet I continue to use this saw - it does a good job crosscutting to length and squaring board ends, its small table is thick aluminum and it hasn't minded being left out in the weather all these years. Needless to say it is useless at ripping boards, I do my ripping on a small band saw, much less kerf waste. I have one of the low-priced portable Ryobi BTS20's, that I keep a 3/4" wide dado set mounted on, and use it for all my dado cuts - it has a nice fence and miter gauge. My router, mounted in a router table I use for cutting slots, glue joints, finger joints for joining board edges/ends, locking miters, and other things that routers are good at, like quick edge rabbets.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

My table saw has a large area to the right of the cast table between the rails which i converted to a router table. I also have a router table but the fence on it doesn't give the precision the table saw fence does. Its good to bolt on a sacraficial fence with the router in place to avoid any oopsies but the router is another option for making rabbets although I personally wouldn't do it that way.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

dados are great for dados, I really can't see using a dado blade for a run of rabbits. If I had just one and the dado was loaded up...sure; but for a whole run...no way

It is way more stress on the saw motor, which can shorten the life of smaller saws by a lot.
It dulls my dados for no reason...and dull dados are dangerous and even more motor stress.
Its physically harder to push the wood through.
It fills the shop with super fines and dust (dados tend to make dust rather than chips/shavings)
It leaves a poorer surface in the joint and is much more prone to blow outs at the cut's end.

Everyone does what works for them. 

By the way Solomon, dropping a block on a running saw is a great way to ruin the blade as well as the blade insert. Neither is designed for sudden impacts


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## tsk (Nov 26, 2010)

In my experience (and I'm not a master woodworker), a dado blade works much better aside from the pain of swapping it out. I get nice square cuts which I don't get with two passes of the blade (I'm never perfectly square). That means my boxes fit together much better with a dado and the glue joint is perfect. 



Barry said:


> I agree, and even though I have a dado blade set, I wouldn't use it when making a rabbet joint. Excessive blade friction and drag. Much faster, cleaner and safer to make two passes with a standard blade.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

tsk said:


> (I'm never perfectly square).


It's the saw that makes a cut square, or at a true 90 degrees. Either the blade and/or the fence isn't at a 90 degree to the table.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

windfall said:


> dados are great for dados, I really can't see using a dado blade for a run of rabbits. If I had just one and the dado was loaded up...sure; but for a whole run...no way


I appreciate your concern. But I'm not a wood worker. I don't have high quality equipment laying around. I want the dado to make boxes, queen castles first, and precious little else. At this point, I make 5-10 boxes at a time, and I'll be making no more than a few dozen per year, not a few thousand. If you have a real expensive dado and a bunch of boxes to make, you probably shouldn't do it that way.



windfall said:


> It is way more stress on the saw motor, which can shorten the life of smaller saws by a lot.


The saw I'll be using is an old Craftsman with the motor sticking out the back connected with the belt. My other saw that I use for ripping is a 2003 $100 unit. It doesn't even take dadoes. If that one dies, it's not big deal and not fixable. If the Craftsman dies, I already have a 220v motor to replace it, so, so much the better.



windfall said:


> By the way Solomon, dropping a block on a running saw is a great way to ruin the blade as well as the blade insert. Neither is designed for sudden impacts


Yes, consider the blade ruined. It was eight years ago. I was considerably younger then. I don't recommend it, unless you're a little bit sloshed and have a table saw you don't care about. I'll wait for the Darwin Awards to come out. These days, I take a bit more care of my remaining 9.8 fingers.


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## tsk (Nov 26, 2010)

The issue I think is the fence height. I'm trying to use a 3" tall fence to hold a 13" or 20" board straight. Invariably it's not straight and the rabbets don't sit perfectly.

For me it's better to just get all the boards cut to size and then rabbet them all. I can do the joints and frame slots all at once.



Barry said:


> It's the saw that makes a cut square, or at a true 90 degrees. Either the blade and/or the fence isn't at a 90 degree to the table.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

OK, a simple jig will help you a lot here.

http://www.thisiscarpentry.com/2011/03/18/raised-panel-table-saw-jig/

or a simple h shaped jig that fits over the fence will extend your fence height for accuracy.


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## tsk (Nov 26, 2010)

Yeah, I think that would certainly help. Thanks.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have noticed that some of the dado sets are made for reduced chip out on melamine etc. and have negative rake on the cutters. They do not cut very willingly but do make nice surfaces and as a previous poster noted, lots of dust. I have an old, non carbide set with plenty of hook and it is much faster.

If you do use the two single kerf cuts to remove the material, a simple push device that forces the divot to clear the blade and fence along with the panel, will ensure the severed piece between the saw and fence cannot suck onto the blade.

You will meet with cupped boards even when assembling precut boxes as well as the ones you are rabbeting or finger jointing. A trick to remove some of this is a sponge and water; soak just the cupped side and lay it wet side down on the floor or two wet sides together. The bit of swelling will do wonders to take the cup out. Rabbet or finger joint or assemble when the pieces are near straight. The pieces always cup toward the bark so to eliminate the tops and bottoms splaying and pulling fasteners, the bark side of the board should be selected to be the inside of the box; dont put your heart in a box.

Edit; there is a risk that the cut out piece, approx. 5/16 by 9/16" X the width of the board, could get picked up by the blade and fired back at you. The risk is greater if the waste is between the blade and the fence rather than on the free side of the blade. Of course we should not be standing in the line of fire but how many of us have gotten complacent about that.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

crofter said:


> will ensure the severed piece between the saw and fence cannot suck onto the blade.


There won't be a piece between the blade and fence if you make the two cuts in the right order. First cut should be with the board laying flat on the table, second cut with the board standing up against the fence.


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## Nantom670 (Jul 29, 2011)

deleted


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

crofter said:


> I have noticed that some of the dado sets are made for reduced chip out on melamine etc. and have negative rake on the cutters. They do not cut very willingly but do make nice surfaces and as a previous poster noted, lots of dust. I have an old, non carbide set with plenty of hook and it is much faster.


I looked around quite a bit and I did read some complaints about the negative hook angle. The ones I saw in Home Depot were of the same fashion, made by Freud. They all have good ratings for Plywood and such. But the one I posted is one by Freud I found that has a 15 degree hook angle and is rated very high for soft wood (which is just about everything I do) and acceptably for plywood (which might happen from time to time.) I was wondering when the poster mentioned the fine sawdust, because I've not used a negative hook angle blade and had not experienced that type of sawdust.



crofter said:


> You will meet with cupped boards even when assembling precut boxes as well as the ones you are rabbeting or finger jointing. A trick to remove some of this is a sponge and water; soak just the cupped side and lay it wet side down on the floor or two wet sides together. The bit of swelling will do wonders to take the cup out. Rabbet or finger joint or assemble when the pieces are near straight. The pieces always cup toward the bark so to eliminate the tops and bottoms splaying and pulling fasteners, the bark side of the board should be selected to be the inside of the box; dont put your heart in a box.


This is fantastic information, thank you. Just to be clear, you're saying the concave side of the board inward, correct?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Barry said:


> There won't be a piece between the blade and fence if you make the two cuts in the right order. First cut should be with the board laying flat on the table, second cut with the board standing up against the fence.


Barry, what you say is correct and easily doable if all your stock is uniform thickness. With rough lumber I must index from what will be the inside to keep that dimension critical and it results in the scrap being between the saw and fence. In general terms that is not good safety practice so perhaps the post should be amended.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Solomon Parker said:


> This is fantastic information, thank you. Just to be clear, you're saying the concave side of the board inward, correct?


Yes, that usually is the way the board will warp, cupped toward the bark. Even if the board is straight look at the growth rings and choose what would have been bark side on the tree as the inner surface of your board.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The issue of keeping a 16" or so, long piece of wood perfectly upright while pushing it across the saw is not a piece of cake. I will be making a bunch of boxes and I think I will make a sled that runs in the mitre board slots that will double as a push board and extend upwards enough to support the board pependicular. Could easily incorporate a shield as well. Half an hour or so making a jig can make things a lot crisper and safer but I have to admit to often being in too much of a hurry to do it!


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## Nantom670 (Jul 29, 2011)

The blade is only out of the table 5/8" when the board is turned on its edge. Place a clamp around the board and the fence or hold it firm with your hand. Even a 3" fence is almost 2 1/2" inches above the blade and the blade is inside the wood piece. If you don't have a zero clearance insert just turn your fence to the other side of your blade, that will give your board plenty of room not to fall into your insert. You can make a zero clearance insert out of any anything light and it will last a long time.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I updated my design on Google Sketchup and posted it to my blog. It's a queen castle mating nuc, but the corners are the rabbets we've been discussing. Feel free to use the design, I think it's pretty standard.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Also, I think I've changed my mind. I like the Oshlun Dado, it includes shims, has good reviews and a lot of them.

http://www.amazon.com/Oshlun-SDS-0842-8-Inch-Tooth-Stack/dp/B0012YF25Q/ref=reg_hu-rd_add_1_dp


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Nantom670 said:


> The blade is only out of the table 5/8" when the board is turned on its edge. Place a clamp around the board and the fence or hold it firm with your hand. Even a 3" fence is almost 2 1/2" inches above the blade and the blade is inside the wood piece. If you don't have a zero clearance insert just turn your fence to the other side of your blade, that will give your board plenty of room not to fall into your insert. You can make a zero clearance insert out of any anything light and it will last a long time.


The issue I am discussing regarding which side of the saw the waste falls, is not about falling between the saw and the insert, but that a piece of the waste may rotate and jamb between blade and fence. We have two safety concerns on the go here needing different cures. The zero clearance insert is a valid safety concern but still wont prevent the problems that can occur with scrap between the blade and the fence. Short grain scrap is more apt to fragment than ripped wood scrap.


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## Nantom670 (Jul 29, 2011)

It would seem to me then for that problem is to place the piece that you are going to cut off on the blade side and not against the fence. Then the small piece you cut off will fall to the left of blade and not have anything to wedge against it. Just trying to help, works for me, if not for others I am not offended. Have a great day.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

But he said earlier that he's working with lumber that varies in thickness (rough sawn), so this won't work without resetting the fence each time.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Nantom670

I was not trying in any way to be offensive. I could see we were perhaps talking about two different but surely connected issues. The rough lumber of irregular thickness just throws another little wrench into things when the internal dimension of the assembled frame rest is the essential target rather than outside box dimension.

Sorry,


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I made these this week to match some I made 30 years ago. I use a 6" carbide stacked dado. 4 7/8" deep supers made for 4 1/2" frames. The new ones made from old redwood fence lumber, the old ones from fir. Top seven the new ones, bottom are the old ones. I went with 1" thick cleats this time around, think I prefer the appearance of the 3/4" deep cleats.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Oddfrank;

Now those are real handgrips! I think I am getting just about old enough to handle that style.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Those are sweet!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

First, to New Ky Beekeeper....You are close enough to me, (Park City, Ky.) to come by my place sometime and I will show you how easy it is to make box joints.

I used rabbet joints for years, but since the commercial companies use box joints, I changed over about two years ago. Rabbet joint, box joint, butt joint, any joint with glue, nails and an occasional coat of paint, will outlast the beekeeper, unless you plan to do a lot of migratory work, lifting and pulling, transporting them.

cchoganjr


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Solomon...Wish you were close to Ky. I could give you lots of bags of dado dust.

I notice Barry uses Freud dado, and he has been in woodworking for years. 
That says something. I have never tried the Freud. I use the Oshlund, 8 inch, and have had good luck with it, no problems.

cchoganjr


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Thanks for that info. I wanted something with good hook angle and reasonable price. Of course, quality is usually reasonably priced unless it's on an expendable part that can be replaced multiple times with cheaper ones for the same cost. Does having the chippers with six teeth rather than the winged kind make a difference for you? I imagine it's a lot of weight to get moving or to stop, spinning what is essentially an eight inch steel disc 29/32" thick.

I'm ready to pull the trigger. Finals are done next Tuesday, and then it's time to start building.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I'm in Georgia today, but I believe mine has six teeth. I can't recall and I am not at the shop. The six tooth is easier to set up and be balanced than the winged type. 

A good saw will pull either, won't make a lot of difference.

If you haven't bought a dado set , be sure to check your saw and the material you plan to cut. Make sure the saw will adjust up enough to do what you want done. Some saws will not adjust up enough with a six inch dado, and you will need an eight or ten inch dado.

cchoganjr


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Mine are this style. Except Freud, not Delta. They also vary in widths. Several that are 1/8", a couple 1/4", and one 3/8". Looks like a lot of the newer ones are 4 or 6 tooth chippers now.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I have a six inch, and the saw will handle an 8. My current one is like the Skil shown earlier except cheaper. The chippers don't even have teeth per se, just flattened at the tips.


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## Nantom670 (Jul 29, 2011)

If you are going to get a new dado set, I can not think of why you would ever need an eight inch dado set when you can get a 6" set much cheaper when buying the same brand. You will only be raising the blades probably an inch or so at the most. Then they recommend doing that in about 1/4-3/8" increments. I usually put a support board behind whatever I am cutting to avoid chip out. And if you haven't set up a set before remember to use the two main blade on the inside and outside of your set and I have a freud set and you can look the the angel of those teeth on these two blades and you will see that the first blade to put on will be high side toward the arbor and the low side in-- the same on your outside blade, the high side of the teeth will be on the outside. I didn't notice that when I first got mine and was wondering why I wasn't getting smooth cuts like freud blades were known for. I read the instructions and learn why.:applause:


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Nantom670 said:


> I can not think of why you would ever need an eight inch dado set when you can get a 6" set much cheaper when buying the same brand.


I want an eight inch set because I want to be able to use a sled on top of the table to build jigs on for cutting certain repetitive items. The sled has runners that fit in the miter slots and when you're ready to go, you plop it on there, place your piece in the place made for it and slide the sled across the blade, cutting what you want exactly where you want without needing to make any adjustments. I was going to use my current set, but I discovered with the maximum height, I couldn't get enough bite past the sled base, so that's why I'm going with the eight.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Soloman Parker.... You just said the same thing i was typing. If you use sleds, most saws will not adjust high enough with a six inch set of dados. And, if you plan to make several boxes, the sled is the only way to go. I have sleds for each size box. Never requires any fine tuning that you will do if you attach to miter gauge. The sled running in the miter grooves is the only way to go for production.

cchoganjr


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Was it you that said you had six table saws? I only have two, but they'll be set up one for ripping, one for dado. The ripping one is the cheap one. I always have to do a test run though, the measuring doodad is never exactly right. I have a 10" sliding miter saw for cutting. I bought it specifically to cut 1x12's to make deeps. It was one of the best investments I've ever made. It is such a useful piece of equipment.

With the miter saw and dado, I can cut all the sides in one whack, all the ends in one whack, all the frame rests in one whack and all the rabbets in one whack. I'm getting fewer and fewer whacks. This is good.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Finals are done, I spent last evening cutting 1x12's for boxes and 1x6's for lids.

I'm very happy with the Oshlun 8" dado, I'm not particularly happy with my old Craftsman table saw which despite having an arbor long enough to fit the blade, has a spot just past the first blade position which is narrower than the rest of the arbor. That means, the second blade in the stack is able to sit just off balance from the rest. While it's not enough to make the saw vibrate badly, it is enough to leave a groove in the bottom of the dado or rabbet. Again, this is the saw, not the blade.

I'm in the process of using the blade to make rabbets and 1/4" dadoes for 10 queen castles. You can see the design here. Now that I'm done cutting, I would make a few adjustments. First, I would make the frame rest deeper so that there is full beespace over the top bars of the frames. In fact, I'd probably recommend that for nucs or anything else permanently single tall. I'm not fond of inner covers, I've never made one or used one or needed one. I'm also using screws, I've never been fond of nails. For a couple years, since I've been building boxes, I've been using composite deck screws. They splinter and crack the wood very little. Gluing is with Titebond III.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Solomon Yes I use 6 table saws and a 12 inch sliding miter, also have a radial arm which does the same functions as the sliding miter. I never move the fences on any of the saws. 

One saw is set up to the left of the blade to rip a 1 X 10 1/2 to 9 9/16 for deeps. The right side of this saw, rips a 1 X 6 1/2 to 5 3/4 for shallows.

One saw cuts the dado for box joints for both deep and shallow.

One saw rips the 3/4 X 2 to 3/4 X 1 3/4 for side rail of bottom board.

One saw has a 9/16 dado for cutting the groove in the side rail of a bottom board.

One saw rips the 7/8 X 3/4 for the end of a bottom board.

One saw left side cuts the rabbet groove for the top rabbit on a deep and the right side cuts the rabbet for the top rabbet on a shallow.

I use a sliding miter, or a radial arm for cutting lengths.

I can walk to any saw and any operation without touching the fence. For safety, most of the operations are run through a tunnel so that even if you fell over on the saw, you could not get to the blade. I bought all the saws, except one, off Craigs list, and have next to nothing in any of them. I highly recommend watching Craigs list if you need any kind of woodworking equipment. If someone is asking $250. for a saw, don't be afraid to offer $125. You will be surprised how many will take a pittance for their saws, just to get them out of their garage or their basement. Lots of good bargains there. cchoganjr


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I use a locking rabbet for drawer fronts. It is not as complex as some that I have seen here using 45 degree angles. Let me see if I can scan an ACAD of one I have floating around here. By doing the ends all the same depth and the faces all the same depth the boxes internal dimensions would all be the exact same. The outside edges would not be square though if the wood varied in thickness. Since all my cuts are a ¼” they are two cuts each on my full kerf Freud blade.


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## djastram (May 1, 2011)

I have been thinking about different ways to make hive bodies faster and easier, so I was glad to find this thread.

The last set of hive boxes I built, I dowelled together.

Step 1)
Cut boards to length. (A six foot board will yeild one hive box)
Step 2)
Apply wood glue to the joints.
Step 3)
Clamp with bar clamps.
Step 4)
Tap boards into their final positions with a hammer.
Step 5)
Drill the joints with a hand drill. (The error created by the hand drill makes the joint stronger)
Step 6)
Drive in dowells.

I made a video of it.
http://youtu.be/3gB0M1Tyzeo

Please comment, I would love feedback.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Another way to build a mouse trap. I don't see why it won't work. 

The main reason that commercial hives are box jointed, is for ease in alignment/square. Rabbet joints have to be squared while nailing, box joints will virtuall square themselves. If everyone had woodworking equipment, rabbet joints might have been the standard. cchoganjr


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> Rabbet joints have to be squared while nailing,


Precisely why I use screws. I use composite deck screws. They suck things together, just as square as box joints (close enough to be pushed square by hand) and they screw in flush.

If you use nails and buy boxes, box joints are the way to go. But for me, building them myself, the time it takes to make box joints and the time it takes to nail in dozens of nails for each box outweighs any other benefit.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

I agree. I made and used rabbet joints for years and only changed over to box joints about two years ago. I enjoy reading about all the different joints, and why different people like different joints. 

As I have said many times, most any joint, with a little paint, will likely out live the beekeeper. More importantly, what ever joint works for the beekeeper, that is the one to use. cchoganjr


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