# Splitting a Top-bar hive



## Sam-Smith

Well the guy I worked for made nukes, he removed 1 honey 2 brood from a hive and added a queen cell. I would rather remove the queen cells this would hopefully disrupt the mother hive less since they would still have a laying queen. I don't know yet though, since I have yet to split my hives (new beek) I can only speculate.
Funny story though, when I went to move my 2 langs into my new tbh I happened to open them just when the queens were all coming out, kept some frames of honey for latter emergency feeding in a covered super inside. When I checked a few days latter I found a virgin queen and a small colony inside the super in my house! Put em outside in one of my tbh, they are doing well hopefully they will make it through the winter.


Sam.


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## Michael Bush

Assuming two boxes and enough bars, one method is just "deal" the combs. One for you and one for you. You can slip the ones staying forward in the established hive and take every other comb and give it to the new hive. Whichever one is queenless will raise a queen. Whichever one isn't won't need to. If you happen to see the queen, I'd give her to the new one as the drift will favor the old one.


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## luigee

Sam and Michael,

thanks for your responses. I appreciate the feedback. :thumbsup:


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## Sam-Smith

O yes I had forgotten about this, the older bees will go back to the old hive location so you end up loosing bees in your new hive, gota consider that when spliting.


Sam.


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## throrope

Last year I split my four hives to prevent swarming. I thought by kidnapping the queen into a nuc that the host hive would scramble to raise a new queen and not swarm. My thinking was that if the honey flow was going, the emerging bees would maintain the foraging army and total numbers will be better than what's left after a swarm. Also, by interrupting the brood cycle, I'd also interrupt the mite cycle.

Didn't work.

Our SE PA spring was rainy and cold, all the blooms where pushed back three weeks and I had a miserable harvest.

The flow may have then lined up with the eventual decline in the number of foragers while a new queen got established.

I saw the small hive beetle for the first time. I read recently that the pheromones from a queenless hive attract them. I'm using the beetle barn, but as of yesterday they didn't catch any.

All my mite counts were high in September. In one I counted more than 70 from a sugar roll. By the numbers, that's 7 out of 10 bees have a mite. I gave that hive two rounds of formic acid pads and am hopping for the best.

One nuc was a top bar. I put the queen with a pile of bees in the box with syrup. I'm not sure if I took enough workers but they didn't take.

One nuc was from my mean hive. The host swarmed later in the season then went weak, but rebounded and is now gentle. My buddy who took my last mean hive grabbed the nuc and I hear their doing well. He didn't get a harvest either.

One nuc was from a weak hive. They didn't go crazy. After the TB nuc failed, I put the Lang frames into my TBH hopping they would make the transition. My top bars are much shorter than lang frames. They must have gotten confused and cross combed the little they built, then failed. May be that the queen was why the original hive was weak. I put a frame of brood and eggs into the host hive from their neighbor when I split and they rebounded and look good OK for the winter.

The last nuc is now my nicest Lang hive. They went from three frames to 2 fully built deeps and gave me some honey. Surprise surprise.

I caught the swarm from the mean hive. They took to the top bar nuc and now looks OK for the winter, I hope.

Next year I'm going to split again, but I'm only taking brood frames and leaving the queen. I'm hopping reversing the deeps and leaving empty frames in the middle may help keep down swarming.

Since the lang to lang splits went well, I'm eying my TBH for splitting next year if they survive the winter.

If the nucs raise a queen, I may try a two queen hive. I heard some beeks got a huge crop from more bees filling the same supers.

So what did I learn. Not much. Too many things going on at once for any did this and gave me that. Since my TBH dimensions don't align with Langs, I won't try going from from Lang frames to TBH again. After seeing the beetle, I'm too scared to intentionally let the host go queenless.

I'm falling into the trap of doing what worked last year and shunning change due to fear. I feel that breeds "bees only move up", "screened bottom boards are the only way" and similar blanket perspectives. After five years, I understand the resistance because you need to wait for next year to try again.

My bigger fear is that status quo will be our undoing. Less package producers mean less genetic diversity and more problems. fewer beeks with more hives mean more eggs in less baskets. Greater dependence on mass migration for pollination of our food means everybody will share all problems. Like it or not, change is here and we will fail if we don't embrace it.

I read in Bee Culture that the term Hobby is falling out of favor since we are all beekeepers regardless of scale. I think TBH and similar smaller scale endeavors will be our salvation through random exploration of methods, genetic diversity from localized operations and more public awareness from urban hives.

I'll try to maintain what works and expand enough to dabble only with part of the picture.

Thanks for joining the fun and wish you the best of luck.


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## MIKI

Randomly splitting a TBH will not work out as well as you think it will. Remember these are natural combs we are dealing with they are not and should not be perfectly straight they are a bit wavey. A natural nest cannot just be torn apart and shoved back together as each comb face is modeled after the adjoining one. What you will end up with is a big mess as the bees will build out the comb where it is spaces too far apart and bridge it where it is too close together. Besides a Natural nest should not be disturbed at all. Working with the bees natural instincts would be best by capturing swarms. With that said I know there are beeks that will just insist on splitting TBH's Don't dispare the main concern here should be how much stress you will cause the bees and how to minimize it!!!!

If you insist on splitting a TBH as many adjoining combs as possible should be included in the split. An equal amount of brood and honey combe from the center of the brood nest back i.e. start from the center of the brood nest if there is two broodbars and it goes to honey take exactly half of the brood and honey bars starting at the center of the brood nest counting backwards and move them to the new colony with an empty bar on either side so the bees have no problems recreating the bee space.

Now your stuck with a big gap in the old colony this needs to be closed- all pushed forward but an empty bar has to be inserted between so the bees can again reconstruct the bee space, this bar should also be watched as it may be all drone brood and you just created a Varroa factory!

In conclusion it can be done but it is stressful to the colony and goes against the principal of a TBH being conducive to a natural nest if all your going to do is destroy it! As always monitor mite fall in both in one the brood cycle is broken in the other it is not!

I find it much more easy to hive swarms!

Hope that sheds a new light on splitting a TBH


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## buckbee

luigee said:


> I've seen online or in books where some leave the Old Queen in the Current hive and move the brood comb with the Queen cells and some honey comb to the new hive instead.
> 
> Which method do you guys use? Or do you have your own variation or method that you feel works best?


I do splits within the same hive from swarm cells (mostly), making use of followers.

Because the colony is enclosed within two followers, in the middle of a 4ft long hive, there is space at one end reserved for splits. This end section has its own entrance, which is positioned on the opposite side to the main entrance holes.

To make a split, combs can easily be lifted from the main section to the end and provided with a swarm cell, or the laying queen if required. The usual rules apply as regards stores, brood and nurse bees. 

For swarm control - if such is desired - the whole hive can be rotated through 180 degrees so the new entrance is in the same position as the old was. Flying bees will then reinforce the new colony and deplete the main one, preventing them organizing a swarm.


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## PatBeek

MIKI said:


> Randomly splitting a TBH will not work out as well as you think it will. Remember these are natural combs we are dealing with they are not and should not be perfectly straight they are a bit wavey. A natural nest cannot just be torn apart and shoved back together as each comb face is modeled after the adjoining one. What you will end up with is a big mess as the bees will build out the comb where it is spaces too far apart and bridge it where it is too close together. Besides a Natural nest should not be disturbed at all. Working with the bees natural instincts would be best by capturing swarms.
> 
> ...............In conclusion it can be done but it is stressful to the colony and goes against the principal of a TBH being conducive to a natural nest if all your going to do is destroy it!
> 
> I find it much more easy to hive swarms!
> 
> Hope that sheds a new light on splitting a TBH


Hmmm, very interesting insights. 

Does anyone else have any further comments on this before I proceed in doing a top bar split this next week here in sunny Florida?


.


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## Michael Bush

I don't find it easier to hive swarms, as they usually swarm when I'm not there...

You do need to take into account the wavyness of the comb and the matching of the faces. ESPECIALLY if you have SHB around. But that doesn't mean you can't do splits...


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## Delta Bay

If you take brood combs as a group rather than randomly you shouldn't have a problem. They will build their new combs outward to match the combs they start with.


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## RCorl

MIKI said:


> If you insist on splitting a TBH as many adjoining combs as possible should be included in the split. An equal amount of brood and honey combe from the center of the brood nest back i.e. start from the center of the brood nest if there is two broodbars and it goes to honey take exactly half of the brood and honey bars starting at the center of the brood nest counting backwards and move them to the new colony with an empty bar on either side so the bees have no problems recreating the bee space.


Would it work to take random bars, but in the new hive alternate comb with empty bars, allowing the bees to build out the new empty bars to fit inbetween the existing comb with the proper beespace?


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## Michael Bush

Too much empty space in the brood nest can stress them out and result in chilled brood. Usually if you take every other frame, the differences will be minor. Whatever wave the shape of the comb has, it tends to get repeated over the next few combs, so if they are in the same position they usually work.


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## PatBeek

.

I suppose the same principles would apply, but have small top bar nucs:






And here is Sam Comfort using top bar nucs, but he happens to have queens ready to put in them:

*VIDEO: 18 minute video tour of two apiaries in the Hudson Valley*

.


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## hideawayranch

sooo,Miki, what do you do then when your top bar becomes full?

My Top Bar which is about 48 inches in length and beginning it's second year is becoming pretty full, lots of brood capped, and about space for 3 more bars on each end. I just checked all bars and see no queens cells or any other cells that spell "leaving soon", it seems to be doing so well that I don't really want to disturb it but I know that if I don't do something at some point they will outgrow their home and make the choice on their own. Probably isn't enough room any way to bring in enough honey for the Colorado winter. I guess my question is how late in the year can I wait, before it is to late for them to make a queen and build up enough for the winter? I know that there is math involved here.


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## shannonswyatt

Well, bees are going to swarm, that is their way of spreading their genetics. Splitting is a way to prevent them from swarming. Anyone doing shaken swarms with TBHs?


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## jen.dharma

My hive is in the same situation! I only have 1 bar left on each side. Yikes! I'm going to try a split... Not sure how that is going to go.


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## shannonswyatt

Cleo Hogan says that a bad split is better than no split. Sounds like you have plenty of resources to give from the parent hive, so it should go ok.


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## jen.dharma

shannonswyatt said:


> Cleo Hogan says that a bad split is better than no split. Sounds like you have plenty of resources to give from the parent hive, so it should go ok.


Thanks for the confidence


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## hideawayranch

jen.dharma said:


> My hive is in the same situation! I only have 1 bar left on each side. Yikes! I'm going to try a split... Not sure how that is going to go.


I did my first split ever on June 3rd, so didn't want to do it. But if you don't they will, right! Picked my eggs and larva, added some honey for food, and some nurse bees on capped brood, "he future work force, right! Made sure the queen went with them. Then I did the switch of the hives. Put new split where the older hive was, so that the workers that were left outside would come to the smaller hive. All seemed to go well, within a week I checked the hive without the queen and they had built 3 queen cells. Long story short it was a long 28 days for me. I checked on day the queen should have hatched she didn't, checked back a few days later she was gone. Whew, oh but wait what if she doesn't come back. grrr... well on the 29th of June I checked back in and voila I have a not so virgin queen, "i hope", and eggs. Guess the true test will be if they hatch. But I was so happy to see the queen I almost screamed. It was just the coolest thing to have my first ever split work.


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## PatBeek

I have a tbh that's pretty much full, but there's only about one lone frame of honey. However, most of the other brood frames have honey at the top. All the drones have been kicked out, so they won't be swarming or raising a new queen anytime soon, but I realize things can change on a dime with bees. I also installed a new queen several months back. She has been laying just fine.

What I'm wanting to do, since this is the only hive I have that's active, is buy a local queen for twenty bucks, install her in an adjacent hive along with brood/honey/nurse bees (sans old queen) from the original hive.

Keep in mind I live in Florida, so I have more time for a hive to establish itself before our "winter" kicks in.

Should I attempt this, or just leave my lone hive be?


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## praxis178

PatBeek said:


> What I'm wanting to do, since this is the only hive I have that's active, is buy a local queen for twenty bucks, install her in an adjacent hive along with brood/honey/nurse bees (sans old queen) from the original hive.
> 
> Keep in mind I live in Florida, so I have more time for a hive to establish itself before our "winter" kicks in.
> 
> Should I attempt this, or just leave my lone hive be?


Go for it, I did this very thing (well almost seeing as it was a chop and crop) and still had the chance 9 weeks later to split that colony, *that second split* didn't go quite to plan but they have a laying queen now too. 

The original is down to one, just one, single bar without a full comb on it, that bar has a 2" x3" start going as at last inspection. So come spring, yep I'm in Australia, I'm going to have to be on my toes for sure! I'm hoping I can split those two hives to yield three additional ones, I'm totally not expecting any honey at all though.....


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## PatBeek

.

What's the latest in the year people begin splits in Florida and are successful?

.


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## PatBeek

Almost that time of year again..

Are you all ready to do splits?

By the way, this video is very valuable:


"The Sustainable Apiary by Mike Palmer" on YouTube


www.youtube.com/watch?v=nznzpiWEI8A


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## steveloving

All, new guy here. Thanks for all this great information. I have a top bar hive - very healthy and looks like ready to swarm. 

I was going to split by moving about 1/3 of the comb/workers/honey/brood 

But unlike all of the advice, I was going to buy a new queen, and hope the transplanted bees would accept her, rather than hoping for a re-queen event. 

Do you think that is a viable solution? thanks for any input and ideas


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## shannonswyatt

Yes, leave it queenless for a day and then introduce the queen in a cage or a push in cage. 

When you say it looks like it is going to swarm, do you mean there are swarm cells in the hive?


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## steveloving

shannonswyatt said:


> Yes, leave it queenless for a day and then introduce the queen in a cage or a push in cage.
> 
> When you say it looks like it is going to swarm, do you mean there are swarm cells in the hive?


I see some suspect cells, but to be truthful, I have jumped to a conclusion, because the hive is so active, full with comb/brood on almost all of the 33 bars. I figure the next step is surely going to be a swarm -- do you think I am being to rash?


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## shannonswyatt

I'm not sure what a suspect cell is. The hive may have queen cups, that isn't unusual. But if there are queen cells it should be pretty obvious, they look kind of like peanuts. I would split it though if it is at 33 bars since that means you probably don't have much room in there.


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## Michael Bush

>I see some suspect cells

It either is or is not a queen cell with a larvae in it (or capped). If it is not, then it's not suspect. If it is, it is still not suspect, it is a queen cell.

> but to be truthful, I have jumped to a conclusion, because the hive is so active, full with comb/brood on almost all of the 33 bars. I figure the next step is surely going to be a swarm -- do you think I am being to rash? 

If you let them run out of room, you are probably correct, they will swarm. Don't let them run out of room. Just because a hive is strong does not make it a forgone conclusion that it will swarm and it will be more productive if it doesn't.


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## steveloving

Michael Bush said:


> >I see some suspect cells
> 
> It either is or is not a queen cell with a larvae in it (or capped). If it is not, then it's not suspect. If it is, it is still not suspect, it is a queen cell.
> 
> > but to be truthful, I have jumped to a conclusion, because the hive is so active, full with comb/brood on almost all of the 33 bars. I figure the next step is surely going to be a swarm -- do you think I am being to rash?
> 
> If you let them run out of room, you are probably correct, they will swarm. Don't let them run out of room. Just because a hive is strong does not make it a forgone conclusion that it will swarm and it will be more productive if it doesn't.


Michael, All -- thanks for this advice 

....busy now getting all in order for the split. Will keep the list updated. 

New queen arrives on Wednesday, and I want to get the hive placed, the workers/comb/brood/honey moved over in anticipation of that. As usual, the details of a setup have surprised me, so need to get busy with all that. 

steve


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## canadiyank

Michael Bush said:


> If you let them run out of room, you are probably correct, they will swarm. Don't let them run out of room.


I have a top-bar that's completely full...I don't see any signs of queen cells being made, but none of the honey is capped (just getting started). What would you do to create more room in this situation, besides a split? I was planning to do a split today and was reading up on this thread.


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## Michael Bush

Harvest and put some of the empty bars in the middle of the brood nest.


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## canadiyank

Michael Bush said:


> Harvest and put some of the empty bars in the middle of the brood nest.


Even though it's not capped? I could feed the nectar back to them, I guess?


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## AvatarDad

If you can split and have the equipment, that would be my first choice. You can harvest also. What you do with the frames depends on what equipment you own. Hydrometer: if above 18.6 dry it out. If at or below, bottle it for your family. If drying out: fan and dehumidifier. Some folks think this is cheating, but you can remove 2% moisture per day from the honey. Put the frames in a nuc box. Don't blow air directly on them (you will blow dust on them). Just keep the air moving and dry the room with a dehumidifier. Chest freezer: Freeze the nectar and feed it back later. Of all those, split is the cheapest and easiest, and you end up with more bees, so that's great too!


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## bob128

canadiyank said:


> I have a top-bar that's completely full...I don't see any signs of queen cells being made, but none of the honey is capped (just getting started). What would you do to create more room in this situation, besides a split? I was planning to do a split today and was reading up on this thread.


I am interested in how this is handled eventually turns out. Post or PM me with what you tried etc. Thanks


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## r2t2

Yes, please post and let us know!


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## ruthiesbees

during the heavy nectar flow when my big hives fill up, I relieve some of the congesting in that hive by taking about 5 bars of the uncapped nectar and donating it to a smaller colony that I have going. That can allow the big hive to gather more nectar and the little hives benefit from their hard work, and they have no problem capping it off or using it.

As for splitting, I usually head off the early spring swarms by stealing 3 bars of capped worker brood over to either a smaller nuc or making up a little nuc.


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