# WHATS THE BEST WAY TO KILL A HIVE?



## GABE (Jun 14, 2004)

Been beekeeping two years, 4 hives, two from packages and two from swarms. The one I got in a swarm trap this year is just too nasty. I can't even walk by the hive on a nice day. They follow me more than 60 feet away and I have to use a hose to chase them away.There is No way I am going to find the queen in that hive. I think they must have some AHB genes. ( AHB has been found in this area.) It's a hobby and I can afford a package of gentle Italians. I don't need the hassle. So how do I get rid of them. I heard that you could use a plastic bag, will that work??


----------



## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Take the cover off, scatter the frames and let them leave for parts unknown.


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Good idee Iddee. But if I was Gabe I would want to know that the queen was dead to insure that the soon to depart colony would not contaminate the gene pool.

I would look for the large clump of bees after the frames are scattered and either look through it for the queen, or hose it down with water.


----------



## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

What about all the drones?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I guess I'm crazy, but I'd requeen them.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

I wouldn't think that drones in September would be much of a problem. Kill the queen and the workers will take up with any hive they can. The bees that will be overwintering are yet to be lain, so the 'bad' bees are going to be short lived.


----------



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I'm crazy too....... Why not requeen??


----------



## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>I'm crazy, but I'd requeen them.

So would I but he doesn't think he can find the queen, so he just wants them dead.

He could divide up the boxes with queen excluders or make five frame nucs, etc. etc.

Doesn't sound like he has a Golden Bee suit.


----------



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

"Doesn't sound like he has a Golden Bee suit."

That does make me braver than I used to
be for sure.....


----------



## beegee (Jun 3, 2003)

Your local bee inspector should have a chemical he can use to kill the bees in short order.


----------



## wade (Apr 1, 2006)

<Take the cover off, scatter the frames and let them leave for parts unknown.>


Homeless bees can be very angry for a week or maybe longer, even nice bees.


----------



## GABE (Jun 14, 2004)

What is a "Golden bee suit"?? Or are you kidding.
I have never by myself found the Queen and thats in hives with very gentle bees.In this hive I wouldn't even try.


----------



## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

> I heard that you could use a plastic bag, will that work??

I've heard the same thing, and maybe it was done to one of my hives. If that was the case, it was very effective. Leaves behind an ugly mess though.

I requeened a hive almost like yours and it worked. I thought i'd never find her- it's a top bar hive- but i did. Had given up but there was just one bar left so i pulled it out and there she was. Used a push in cage.

Good luck with whatever you do.
-j


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

the exhaust from your car or hydrogen sulfide gas (a hand rolled cigerette with sulfur added) works fine are available just about everywhere and are both dirt cheap.

if you have a queen excluder (nailed to the bottom of an empty super) locating the queen should be a fairly simple matter. just set it up at the front entrance (raised above ground level with another empty) and strain the bees thru the queen excluder.

good luck....


----------



## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Powernapper hit it on the head. Its just not the queen that needs gone, its the drones also. Most will not deal with a AFB colony with excluders and drone trapping, etc. Just kill the colony. Why replace the queen and allow the drones to spread the afb genes in the area? This queen was a ahb queen that insurpted the hive, or is possible a second generation ahb queen from that hive. 

I understand that you can't stop the natural drone population and control genetics as simple as you can with a queen. I just don't want to promote the spread if limiting it can be achieved also.

I would order a marked queen with that package GABE. Good luck.


----------



## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

If you put a super with empty comb and a blocked entrance where the hive is and brush, smoke, or blow all the bees one frame at a time down into another super on top of it, close it up for an hour or so and come back, most of the workers will be in the bottom box and the queen and drones will be on top of the excluder. Lift the top box off without letting the excluder fall away and drop a little dry ice in the top box. In about 15 minutes the remaining bees will be knocked out by; the CO2 and you can kill all the drones and the queen or just suck them into a vacuum cleaner. With a new queen the hive will change it's temperment within a month.


----------



## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

A former beekeeper around here who started with new packages each season used plastic bags over his hives to kill bees at season's end. Your hive is cantankerous and you'll still need to spend a bit of time getting the bag over the hive and sealed up though. Another suggestion if electricity is available is to open the hive and use a shop vac, but agian you'll have to spend a few minutes at the hive.


----------



## Hobie (Jun 1, 2006)

If going that route, I'd recommend a vacuum where the air sucked in goes through the impeller before entering the cannister or bag. Many shop vacs do not (to avoid nails and the like going through), and you'd end up with a cannister full of quite angry bees. My sister used a Kirby on yellowjackets with remarkable effectiveness. We re-dubbed it the Kirb-Bee.


----------



## John F (Dec 9, 2005)

I heard soapy water is all you need.


----------



## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Plan of record for killing an obnoxious hive:
a. After dark, close entrance with wood bar
b. remove hive top
c. put empty super on top of inner cover
d. place 5-10 lbs of dry ice in empty super
e. replace hive top
f. seal seams with duct tape

Hive should be dead by morning. Honey should be usable, frames will be ready for new bees.

One note -- Never tried personally

Other possible solution is a soapy water spray. From what I understand it is extremely effective but would contaminate the honey and frames.

Fuzzy


----------



## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

Murderers, Murderers, Murderers...
And you claim to be the bees' friends.   

Seriously, in your area, they may be Africanized. On the other hand, in twenty years all the bees in the area will be, so what is one hive going to matter in the long haul.


----------



## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Seriously,

A nasty hive ain't worth my life, a trip to the hospital, or my neighbors being injured. At the point in time where they are all nasty, no one will be keeping them in the city. 

It is too easy to start a new hive once a nasty one has been dealt with. 

Fuzzy


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I wonder if you would combine the "mean" colony with a gentle one if the "mean" one would prevale?


----------



## GABE (Jun 14, 2004)

ok HERE IT IS -- 1:30 my time decided to find the queen in the hostile hive. It consists of only 6 medium supers. I moved as slowly and smoothly as I could. By the third super almost the whole population was buzzing and headbutting me. I could hardly see the hive let alone the queen!I got a sting in my finger right thru the leather glove. By this time I was smoking like crazy but it did no good. I gave up and walked away 70 feet to the stairs to my back patio. I waited, smoked and then used the hose and got rid of the followers.. Would you try to save this hive?


----------



## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

What the best way to kill a hive?

Let the V-mite population get out of control


----------



## wade (Apr 1, 2006)

What did you expect to happen Gabe?


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Would you try to save this hive?

Yes, but with THIS method:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesrequeeninghot.htm


----------



## jim b (Oct 3, 2004)

> Would you try to save this hive?

Yes.

Don't base your decision on what i would do. My situation is different than yours.


> I could hardly see the hive let alone the queen!

I know what you mean


>I got a sting in my finger right thru the leather glove. 

I quit wearing leather in favor of medium weight vinyl gloves. Went from many stings to no stings.


Again, good luck with your choice on this one.

-j

[ August 24, 2006, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: jim b ]


----------



## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Gabe,

What ever happened with this hive. You had indicated in a PM that you would wait until fall.

Fuzzy


----------



## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

---I moved as slowly and smoothly as I could. By the third super almost the whole population was buzzing and headbutting me.--(Gabe)

Head butting? And not stinging? And one sting on the finger?

Actually, sounds kinda gentile to me. 

Sounds like head butting trait of Russian bees gone HOT to me,,,, maybe.

The hot hives that I have had would be stinging up a storm before I got the first super off. When working a hot hive I wear usual jacket and veil, and hot bees will easily sting my legs thru my jeans. 

I would highly recommend that you find an experienced beekeeper to help you out here. I suspect three things. 1. It could be how you are handling them. 2. Could be just nasty Russians that are known to get HOT and head butt and sting up a storm. 3. Or could actually be a hot hive. In each case, an experienced beekeeper will be able to tell.


----------



## clear creek apiary (Jan 16, 2006)

Gabe, In response to an early question about a Golden Bee Suit, go to Beesource Forums » General Beekeeping Forums » Equipment/Hardware Review » Golden Bee Suit for some really fun reading. I'm a big fan of this discussion even though I can't imagine being able to afford one of these suits (poor grad student). Yes the golden bee suit exists, but it seems like your problems are larger than a few stings.... I personally wouldn't kill them because I feel bad even when I crush bees replacing supers after inspection. I like Sundance and Bush and others' idea about requeening and for those who ask about drones, it's late in the season, I don't seen any drones in my hives. Do you have drones? If you do, you could probably get at them and kill them after a few weeks of the new nice queen.


----------



## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

You really want to kill a hive, give it to me and it will die all by itself.


----------



## Walt McBride (Apr 4, 2004)

GABE, what direction does this hive face?
Is this hive in full sun all day?
Is this a only hive, where it is located?
Walt


----------



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I would do the MB dance. Take each super and set it on a bottom board of it's own and add a lid. If you don't have that many bottoms and tops, just use plywood and prop the top. Wait a few days. 

Any box with queen cells after 5 days does not have the queen. Kill the queen cells, add a frame of eggs from a good hive and combine them back together. 

The other boxes either have a queen or don't have eggs to make one. That should be pretty easy to determine. Look for new eggs. When you find the box with the queen, you can either kill that box, or now that you have a smaller population, you can look for her, filter through an excluder, etc. 

Warning, breaking up the hive will not be pleasant, but after you have done so, the single box hives won't be bad at all.


----------



## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

Read 101 topic Africans in Califoria. Africans have two defense modes. One is to sting. The other is to hide if they are confronted by a clearly superior adversary. Suit up carefully. Get shop vac ready to use. Start tearing the hive apart. Bang the lid. Bang the bees off the frames as you go. Be as rough and as fast as you can be. The bees Will spot stinging and start to run down. When you get to the bottom box leave 2 frames. All the bees will be hiding on them. Now use the vac. Leave the two frames to catch field bees and vac later and the next day. Be sure to scratch all sealed brood. Caution emerging Africans sting just like older field bees. Good luck.


----------



## dgoodman (May 30, 2005)

Gabe,

I had a nasty hive this year. I requeened, first killing the nasty queen, closing it up, waiting a week, destroyed the new queen cells, added larvael and brood from a mellow friendly hive, then ended up with a delightful queen, and a friendly colony. It was my first time doing this. Very satisfying part of beekeeping (controlling the genetics).

Cheers.

DG


----------



## MIKI (Aug 15, 2003)

>Let the V-mite population get out of control<

That would really #[email protected]@- off the surrounding bee keepers.

Use the soapy water in a pump sprayer and be done with it....after all you asked what is the best way this is also the easiest way. But if your really angry and need to vent get a gallon of gas some dish detergent, gun powder, spool of safety fuse or det cord works good........never mind.


----------



## hummingberd (Aug 26, 2006)

feed 'em McDonald's


----------



## hummingberd (Aug 26, 2006)

ok, sorry I had to write that! Poor GABE, I'm worried about keeping my hive going, and he can't get rid of his. I don't think I'd hoover 'em. That might just pi** them off and you'll pay the price. If you decide to get rid of them, I'm sure your state bee inspector would be a big help. I'm with you though. I don't think I'd have the courage at this point in my beekeeping to keep a hive like that around. The night I got my nuc, a bee crawled right up my jacket and stung me. I was so scared and nervous that I loudly announced 
"if those bees are mean, I'll burn that box alive!" Course...I didn't mean it! Good Luck!


----------



## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I'm a little surprised at all the talk about this over the length of time from the first post. I wrote about this in ABJ "The Hot Hive." last year. I played with the hive for a month or two before destroying it with soapy water. It was stupid for me to wait. AHB is coming to a theater near you. Don't help them. The drones do the worst damage to the hives in the area. If you use any of the tricks (spray with water, leave combs in the open.)their natural defense is to abscond. Then you'll still have them but they may turn up in your eaves. The thread attracts interest. If I can influence anyone with a hive like this it would be to kill it quick. Do it for others' hives, and your neighbors as well as your own. Even if you keep them they won't make much honey.It's a lose-lose situation.

Dickm

[ November 19, 2006, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: dickm ]


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Drones drift. There's no guarantee you are killing AHB drones when you kill an AHB hive. The drones have already drifted from your other hives to the AHB hive and from the AHB hive to your other hives. Why not just requeen?


----------



## Beemaninsa (Jun 9, 2004)

Preferably when the bees are all at home, smoke the hive heavily, quickly remove top and pour a 5 gallon bucket of soapy water on them. 1 cup hand dishwashing soap to 1 gallon water.


----------



## albee (Nov 16, 2006)

I had a couple of hot hives last year. I moved the hive to loose the field bees then I put a queen excluder and a couple of suppers on top and smoked the bees up into the suppers. The queen gets stuck under the excluder and you can pick her off. Both hives killed the queens that I gave them. Hope you have better luck than I had.


----------



## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Requeening is fine but you then have 6 weeks to wait for nice bees. In the meantime folks can get stung. Or their dogs perhaps. Unless you are in an area polluted with AHB it's simply not worth it. I did the split trick too. Removed all the capped brood to a stand 50 yards away, losing the foragers, and gave them a new queen which was accepted. These bees actually never grew up to be mean. The other 2 splits I made with the remainder--remained mean and had to be killed.

Dickm


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Requeening is fine but you then have 6 weeks to wait for nice bees.

In theory, but I have usually not found that to be true.


----------



## hummingberd (Aug 26, 2006)

GABE-

what happened to this hive? Did you requeen? Tell us the outcome of this saga....

signed,
your faithfully intrigued and sympathetic audience


----------



## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

For future reference; Dry Ice. I would like to get me a hive of AHBs. they farm them in other countries so why not here? I am not sure I can afford the liability insurance though.


----------



## hummingberd (Aug 26, 2006)

still hoping to hear from gabe about the fate of his hive...


----------



## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

Maybe the bees got Gabe!! He has not posted in a while.


----------



## dickm (May 19, 2002)

>>>>they farm them in other countries <<<<

I too wondered about this. The truth is that there are AHB and AHB. They are less defensive at higher altitudes and some have been selected for being gentler. Someone I know witnessed a 'keeper working them without a veil in Brazil. Down there they sneer at our bees as resevoirs of disease and mites. One brazilian 'keeper said 80 % of his hives were workable...the rest were psychotic!

Dickm


----------



## GABE (Jun 14, 2004)

I made the original post on this subject and Ron
Young sent me an e-mail asking about the outcome so here it is. I decided to use the dry ice method and went to the hive to do a dry run. I lifted off the top cover ro see how I was going to put in the dry ice. I was surprised that the bees didn't come after me like they did before, so I went further in to the hive. The bees were completely calm. I actually tried to upset them snd couldn't. So I waited a few days and tried again - they were completly gentle and still are.
I guess something else was bothering them when they were so mean. May be this is a good lesson for other newbee's like me, So I am going to post this messsage.(kind of embarrasing!)


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I guess something else was bothering them when they were so mean.

Or they raised a new queen...


----------



## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

That is something to wonder about. MB, when you say that they may have raised a new queen, do genteics not pass on the trait of being hot? Or would they have been hot because they did not have a queen?


----------



## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Darn, I so wanted to know if the Dry Ice method worked as planned. Guess I'll just have to wait some more. 

More seriously though, Gabe, you live in an area similar to mine. Also with similar weather. It is my observation that from June through Sept the bees are 5x-10x more agressive. Lots O bees, nothing to do. So, I just leave them alone.

I put 3 supers on in Feb and put one or two more on as they start working the top box. Then just leave them and let them work. (Never claimed to be a good beekeeper). 

But, Thanks for the update anyway.


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>That is something to wonder about. MB, when you say that they may have raised a new queen, do genteics not pass on the trait of being hot? Or would they have been hot because they did not have a queen?

Anytime I have dequeened a hot hive and let them rear their own they were much nicer. Usually I requeen them because I figure there is something to the genetics issue, but there are other issues.

They could also be hot because they did not have a queen.

They could also be hot because the queen they HAD was failing.


----------



## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Could also be other factors such as a skunk preying on the hive, or really hot weather, or maybe excessive rainy weather. It will be interesting to see if they contiue to be calm, or if they get hot again next year.


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

gabe sezs:
I guess something else was bothering them when they were so mean.

tecumseh replies:
and to add to the long list of things that may make a hive a bees a bit fiesty.... here at those points in time when the fire ant get active (like just after a good rain) I find the girls to be very defensive.

at least here in texas I find fuzzy observation to be directly on target.


----------



## Ron Young (Aug 16, 2006)

Thanks for the information on the requeening issue and the mood of the hive. I am sure if I keep bees long enough that this issue will come up. Hopefully I can store this in my memory for future use. 

I really like this forum thing. The experience and knowledge base is huge, and a great benefit.


----------



## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

I hope you though to throw a six pack in the ice chest before you went out to kill the hive. Hate to see it get wasted and it sure cools off the beer in a hurry.


----------



## hummingberd (Aug 26, 2006)

GABE-

So glad to hear that things work out with your hive. I don't think you should feel badly about the situation. You were being cautious, which I think is the responsible thing to do! People who keep bees so often forget that not everyone is an aspiring beekeeper, and that bees CAN be dangerous especially for people who know nothing about their behavior! HOpe the hive stays gentle for you!


----------



## hummingberd (Aug 26, 2006)

GABE-

So glad to hear that things work out with your hive. I don't think you should feel badly about the situation. You were being cautious, which I think is the responsible thing to do! People who keep bees so often forget that not everyone is an aspiring beekeeper, and that bees CAN be dangerous especially for people who know nothing about their behavior! Unless you live in the middle of nowhere with absolutly no visitors, it's a good idea to do something about hives that act aggressive. Especially with your location being in the area where AFB have become a problem! Hope the hive stays gentle for you!

-K-


----------

