# are new jars clean enough?



## Gumpy

I don't know about honey specific jars, but I always run my canning jars through the dishwasher before use. I use the heat and sani-rinse cycles. I don't know what the conditions are in the factory where they are made between the glass molding and adding the lids.


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## Michael Pawelek

They are probably safe out of the box but why take a chance not knowing what may have been used in production. I wash all mine new or used no matter how clean they look.


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## gww

I would just use them, My wife would wash them. I wear just bought cloths, my wife washes them before wearing them. I will eat a strawberry, tommato, green bean or cucumber strait from the garden, my wife washes them before she will eat them. I have never been hurt by any of the thing I do, my wife has never been hurt by any of the things she does.
Cheers
gww


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## brad25

I fill them with water no lid and put them in the microwave to a ball


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## jwcarlson

The plastic honey ones from Mann Lake I use. Canning jars (glass) I wash then sanitize in the oven before putting honey in. Smell a new glass jar, if it's made for honey it might be clean. But Ball mason jars smell like fish oil.


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## EastSideBuzz

What would you do if you had 100 cases to bottle in one run? Washing them each would bring up your cost per jar a bit.


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## Gumpy

Ask yourself two questions: 

1) Are you comfortable selling honey to people you may or may not know without knowing for sure your jars are clean? 

2) Would you yourself buy honey from someone you may or may not know if you knew in advance that the jars were not washed before filling?


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## jwcarlson

EastSideBuzz said:


> What would you do if you had 100 cases to bottle in one run? Washing them each would bring up your cost per jar a bit.


Would buy the ones from Mann Lake (or someone else) that are good to go. I'm quickly coming to that conclusion.


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## beehavior

What makes a bottle good to go straight from the store?


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## hex0rz

Fda has strict guidelines to follow when you are classified as a food company...


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## snapper1d

jwcarlson said:


> The plastic honey ones from Mann Lake I use. Canning jars (glass) I wash then sanitize in the oven before putting honey in. Smell a new glass jar, if it's made for honey it might be clean. But Ball mason jars smell like fish oil.


I saw once on a canning jar site that you need to wash them because they use some kind of releasing agent on them in the manufacturing process and like JW says they stink!!! If they smell there is some kind of residue in them.


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## crofter

snapper1d said:


> I saw once on a canning jar site that you need to wash them because they use some kind of releasing agent on them in the manufacturing process and like JW says they stink!!! If they smell there is some kind of residue in them.


I also have noticed that bit of smell; if you leave the jar open for even a few minutes it seems to disappear. I wondered if it might be something like you say a release agent to keep the seal material in the lid from sticking to the jar.


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## Planner

GWW
I agree.


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## Andrew Dewey

If you are planning to sell the honey you put in the jars, whatever agency in charge of food preparation for your area may require you to wash new jars. Maine has such a law.


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## Michael Pawelek

Andrew Dewey said:


> If you are planning to sell the honey you put in the jars, whatever agency in charge of food preparation for your area may require you to wash new jars. Maine has such a law.


Regardless of rules, laws or regulations it is just good common sense to wash out any container, even new out of a box, that will hold any food product that goes to anyone else. Then again
I am weird and shower on a regular basis!


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## NewbeeInNH

Michael Pawelek said:


> Then again
> I am weird and shower on a regular basis!


Once a month?

I vote for dishwasher, but then I've never filled several hundred jars at once. Actually so far I've only filled about 5, and those were re-used spaghetti sauce jars. But I don't think I'd want to eat out of a container that hadn't first been washed.


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## Michael Pawelek

NewbeeInNH said:


> Once a month?


Depends on how cold the water in the Creek is........


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## Mike Gillmore

Canning jars are produced and sold for .... canning "food". 

As strict as the FDA seems to be on food safety you would think that they would require the jar manufactures to label their packaging with a recommendation or warning to "wash before use" if it was necessary to do so. Maybe they do ... I've never really looked.


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## OkieRob

If you run the plastic honey containers through a dish washer they will melt. I melted 2 cases of them because there was no warning on them.


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## EastSideBuzz

OkieRob said:


> I melted 2 cases of them because there was no warning on them.


Also don't take your uncapping knife in the bathtub with you. :lookout:


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## jwcarlson

Mike Gillmore said:


> Maybe they do ... I've never really looked.


Every box of jars I have ever used says pretty explicitly to wash before use. I want to say that my Ball mason jars said the word sterilize, but I'm not positive as I just used the last ones and pitched the box. Regardless. 



> New canning jars out of the box are not sterile. Being in a box or covered in plastic wrap is not the same as a sterile environment. In addition to contamination by microorganisms that cannot be seen with our bare eyes, packaged jars may accumulate dust, small bits of debris, and even chips of glass in the case of breakage (which does happen sometimes in all the steps of transport from factory to store to home).
> 
> Whether brand new or re-used many times over, you should always clean jars just prior to filling them when canning. Wash jars in a dishwasher or by hand, using detergent and rinsing well. Clean jars should then be kept warm prior to filling.


http://nchfp.uga.edu/publications/nchfp/factsheets/sterilizing.html

I understand that honey isn't the same as canning food, but most of that is applicable in some way...


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## texanbelchers

Michael Pawelek said:


> Depends on how cold the water in the Creek is........


Your creek is running a bit high and dirty right now, but it is fairly warm.


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## beepro

When in doubt wash them out!


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## Planner

I have struggles with this for sometime but I have hundreds of jars. I just realized I can get about 3 to 4 dozen small jars in the dishwasher so I think I may wash and simply start in advance of bottling. I am certain large food establishment wash their jars but they must have very large specialized washers.


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## crofter

The honey you are going to pour into the jars is far, far, from sterile itself. (unless it is deliberately high temperature treated). It would be interesting to actually do an analysis on the jars and lids before and after you wash them in home conditions.

Canning of low acid foods is a whole different ball game and there mere washing is not even adequate.


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## NewbeeInNH

Yeah, but factory dust is kind of gross. You're supposed to wash your brand new clothes before wearing them.


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## jwcarlson

I wouldn't want to sell honey in jars that smell like the brand new jars do. I understand that honey isn't "sterile" but I don't need to be introducing whatever residue results from the manufacture of the jars. The Mann Lake plastic ones are supposedly ready to fill. At the very least they do not stink like new glass jars do.


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## Groundhwg

Blair said:


> I just purchased a few cases of new jars with lids. They seem very clean. Would you use them as-is or would you run them through the dishwasher first?


If you have to ask, have any doubt, then you already know that you need to wash them before using. since you have no way of knowing how the jars were made or cleaned before you bought them why not just wash them to be sure.


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## Coach62

crofter said:


> The honey you are going to pour into the jars is far, far, from sterile itself. (unless it is deliberately high temperature treated). It would be interesting to actually do an analysis on the jars and lids before and after you wash them in home conditions.
> 
> Canning of low acid foods is a whole different ball game and there mere washing is not even adequate.


What is your source? Honey is in FACT a natural antiseptic and antibacterial. This is a fact. Are you familiar with Medi-Honey? I had some prescribed to my by a wound care doctor. It's just pure filtered honey and is often used in wound care to speed healing and prevent infection.

While it is irradiated, this is just a precaution and in fact is likely not needed.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Coach62 said:


> Are you familiar with Medi-Honey? I had some prescribed to my by a wound care doctor. It's just pure filtered honey and is often used in wound care to speed healing and prevent infection.
> 
> While it is irradiated, this is just a precaution and in fact is likely not needed.


Medi-honey is irradiated to eliminate botulism toxin, as you can see here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2686636/

If botulism toxin is a risk in honey, then clearly honey is _not_ sterile!


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## Stella

I wash hundreds of new jars in the dishwasher. It's very simple.
It states on the Ball box to wash jars, lids and rings prior to using.


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## Coach62

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Medi-honey is irradiated to eliminate botulism toxin, as you can see here:
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2686636/
> 
> If botulism toxin is a risk in honey, then clearly honey is _not_ sterile!


And if it contained botulism and you ATE it - what would happen? You would get very sick and possibly die.

Give me a break. If you'd bother to read up on it - I have as I've actually used it - you'd find that it's just a precaution just in case of the unlikely event that it was in fact contaminated. If you're going to sell it as a medical product, the controls are of course very high.

Re-read my first post, you're not adding anything. I said very clearly that it was irradiated and gave the reason why. Further, the quote I was responding to said it was "far far from sterile" That is simply not true.


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## Rader Sidetrack

Coach62 said:


> And if it contained botulism and you ATE it - what would happen? You would get very sick and possibly die.
> 
> Give me a break.


Botulism in honey is real. That is why there is a common warning not to feed honey to infants.


> *Infant Botulism and Honey*
> Infant botulism is a disease caused by the spore-forming bacterium Clostridium botulinum. With an average of fewer than 100 reported cases per year in the US, infant botulism is considered to be a rare disease. The Infectious Disease Section and Microbial Diseases Laboratory of the California Department of Health have provided evidence that botulism spores in the immature infant intestinal tract may produce the actively growing stage of the bacterium Clostridium botulinum. The bacterium, in turn, produces a poison that can block nerve impulse transmissions.
> 
> http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/aa142


However ...


> Healthy adults and children over one year of age have a more mature digestive system that prevents the Clostridium bacteria from surviving.
> 
> http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/aa142


Just because adults aren't affected by the botulism spores in honey doesn't mean that they are not there.

Further evidence of the _lack of sterility in honey_ is the transmission of American Foulbrood (AFB) spores in honey from infected hives to healthy hives.


> The honey in an infected colony can become contaminated with spores and can be a source of infection for any bee that gains access to it. For example, as a colony becomes weak, it cannot defend itself from attacks by robber bees from strong nearby colonies; these robbers take back the contaminated honey to their own colony, continuing the cycle of infection. [HIGHLIGHT]The beekeeper also may inadvertently spread the disease by exposing contaminated honey to other bees[/HIGHLIGHT] or by the interchange of infected equipment.
> 
> http://www.ars.usda.gov/Main/docs.htm?docid=2882


AFB spores are very persistent, and may exist in commercially sold honey. AFB does not affect humans, so honey packers have no reason to test for AFB. But commercially packed honey may carry AFB spores - harmless to humans - but very hazardous to other bee colonies, so new beekeepers are advised not to feed packed honey to their bees.



Honey is "far far from sterile". :lookout:
Give _me_ a break. 

.


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## aunt betty

Used to work for Plastipak Packaging Inc. 
Can testify that the bottles manufactured there went straight to the warehouse where they sat for weeks or even months before being sent to Kraft Foods Inc or PepsiCo or whatever other corporations used them to pack food products into. 

Do you think those companies sanitize the containers? Millions and millions (and millions!!!) of them. 
Next time you get some Kraft salad dressing think about that.


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## AHudd

I always thought honey has bacteria in it, but that the bacteria can't reproduce in the honey. This is why honey is not recommended for infants due to their immature immune system.
Wash your jars and your hands and don't lick the honey drips from your fingers and then touch anything before washing your hands again in hot soapy water. LOL

Alex


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## NewbeeInNH

I advise you all to NOT EAT THE HONEY.

Send it to me, and I will test it.


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## jwcarlson

aunt betty said:


> Do you think those companies sanitize the containers? Millions and millions (and millions!!!) of them.


Of course they do. 


> When the dressing is completely blended according to the recipe, it flows to the bottling station. Here, pre-sterizilized jars or bottles move along a conveyer belt as overhead spigots drop premeasured amounts of dressing into each container. The containers are immediately sealed with metal or plastic caps.


http://www.madehow.com/Volume-6/Salad-Dressing.html


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## Groundhwg

aunt betty said:


> Used to work for Plastipak Packaging Inc.
> Can testify that the bottles manufactured there went straight to the warehouse where they sat for weeks or even months before being sent to Kraft Foods Inc or PepsiCo or whatever other corporations used them to pack food products into.
> 
> Do you think those companies sanitize the containers? Millions and millions (and millions!!!) of them.
> Next time you get some Kraft salad dressing think about that.


Having work for them I know that they do! All of them, yes, millions and millions.


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## aunt betty

Do they wash and dry them with little scrubbers or what? 

I've ordered plastic bears from Mann Lake and no way am I washing and drying them all. It'd take too much time and space.


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## crofter

Yes, honey as it comes from the bees is not sterile. It contains viable bacteria and many different kinds of spores. If the moisture content is <18% plus the low ph of ~4 keeps the organisms from multiplying (dormant) If you raise the water content or the ph many of the organisms will get active. Pasteurizing which kills some of the common diseases and yeasts is a move towards preserving shelf life of honey but still does not make it "sterile". To make it sterile would take temperatures somewhat north of 250 degrees F or radiation exposure. 


A few people here would be best not to use their rent money to bet against Rader! He is not often far from the mark!


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## hex0rz

Two things are happening here:

1. The discussion of home based honey packing

Vs

2. The discussion of commercial based food processing facilities. 

While the methods are different, the controls are the same and both should come to the same outcome. 

Commercial food processing facilities will clean and sanitize their finished product holding containers before filling them with product. Different application, different purpose. But they all achieve the same thing.


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## OkieRob

EastSideBuzz said:


> Also don't take your uncapping knife in the bathtub with you. :lookout:


Seriously, you quote a partial answer and make a stupid comment. I provided sound information on plastic jars that are sold to hold honey.


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## Jim 134

I do know where I live. If you wash jars you need to have a commercial kitchen. If you bottle into new jars you do not. And I know it is true in two states that border my town. Which are Vermont and Massachusetts which I bought about 8 miles away from me.


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## aunt betty

Been going thru the paperwork that came with my huge box of 365 plastic bears from Mann Lake. Nowhere on the documentation or box does it say anything about having to wash and sterilize them before packaging honey. It's my third box and again...no warning about disinfecting them.

OK, now let's focus on the lids. The squeeze bears have special caps with a safety seal that seals itself when the cap is screwed on. Could one of you geniuses explain how that I'd clean and sterilize one of those without ruining the safety seals?








Now here is a box that Little Giant plastic bears come in. Says the same thing on four sides and it has no warning that you must wash them first. Came with the lids just like Mann Lake.


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## Groundhwg

aunt betty said:


> Been going thru the paperwork that came with my huge box of 365 plastic bears from Mann Lake. Nowhere on the documentation or box does it say anything about having to wash and sterilize them before packaging honey. It's my third box and again...no warning about disinfecting them.
> 
> OK, now let's focus on the lids. The squeeze bears have special caps with a safety seal that seals itself when the cap is screwed on. Could one of you geniuses explain how that I'd clean and sterilize one of those without ruining the safety seals?
> View attachment 26093
> 
> 
> Now here is a box that Little Giant plastic bears come in. Says the same thing on four sides and it has no warning that you must wash them first. Came with the lids just like Mann Lake.
> View attachment 26094


If we are calling glass jars and plastic bottles two different things then yes, wash your jars but there is not a need to wash NEW plastic bottles.


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## NewbeeInNH

My washing admonition was for glass jars. I don't even consider plastic.


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## turtle95

the plastic bottles are chemically sanitized during production . The glass bottles should be washed to remove the oil or release agent used in the bottle manufacturing . I did the right thing and called the manufactures and asked them years ago


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## coastie

Andrew Dewey said:


> If you are planning to sell the honey you put in the jars, whatever agency in charge of food preparation for your area may require you to wash new jars. Maine has such a law.


Maine does not require you to wash new jars. It does require you to sterilize any jars you reuse. I have a guy that always returns his jars to me so I can reuse them. I just put them in the recycle bin as it is too much of a hassle.

I don't wash my jars. I was told by Betterbee years ago that they are ready to go as is and there is no additional washing or sterilizing required.


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## Blair

gww said:


> I would just use them, My wife would wash them. I wear just bought cloths, my wife washes them before wearing them. I will eat a strawberry, tommato, green bean or cucumber strait from the garden, my wife washes them before she will eat them. I have never been hurt by any of the thing I do, my wife has never been hurt by any of the things she does.
> Cheers
> gww


Wow, I never imagined that this question would generate so many responses. I like this one the best though! I could have written it myself. I was getting ready to just use the jars, but my wife insisted that I wash them, so I did.


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## NewbeeInNH

Blair said:


> Wow, I never imagined that this question would generate so many responses. I like this one the best though! I could have written it myself. I was getting ready to just use the jars, but my wife insisted that I wash them, so I did.


Is this why women live longer than men?


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## Blair

NewbeeInNH said:


> Is this why women live longer than men?


OH NO!!! It looks like this thing might morph into a whole new thread.


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## NewbeeInNH

Blair said:


> OH NO!!! It looks like this thing might morpp into a whole new thread.


When was the last time you got stung by a drone?


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## crofter

NewbeeInNH said:


> When was the last time you got stung by a drone?


It was protecting the brood it was moving to other cells!


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## texanbelchers

NewbeeInNH said:


> When was the last time you got stung by a drone?


Well, it was in the men's restroom.......


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## NewbeeInNH

I won't ask. LOL.


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## EastSideBuzz

You mean gender neutral restroom.


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## NewbeeInNH

LOL.

Barry, it is not my fault. I am an innocent bystander here.


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## AHudd

EastSideBuzz said:


> You mean gender neutral restroom.


Which brings us full circle, are the gender neutral restrooms in Houston clean enough?

Alex


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## jwcarlson

coastie said:


> I don't wash my jars. I was told by Betterbee years ago that they are ready to go as is and there is no additional washing or sterilizing required.


Understand that jars being sold as "ready to fill" and mason jars being sold with instructions on the side that say "wash before use" are two different animals. No one is suggesting the need to wash jars that are sold as ready to fill. But open a new mason jar and take a wiff and tell me you'd feel comfortable putting honey in it.


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## D Coates

coastie said:


> Maine does not require you to wash new jars. It does require you to sterilize any jars you reuse. I have a guy that always returns his jars to me so I can reuse them. I just put them in the recycle bin as it is too much of a hassle.
> 
> I don't wash my jars. I was told by Betterbee years ago that they are ready to go as is and there is no additional washing or sterilizing required.


You and I apparently have customers who are related. I do the same thing with his bottle too. I don't wash my plastic bottles. I only use hex glass for my 12oz chunk honey. I've never washed those either. They come in bulk packaging upside down. They're sold as jelly jars. I pull them out of the box, flip them over drop the comb in there and pour in the honey, cap and label it. I've never smelled them though (I just got crate of them in and I'll give them a sniff when I open them up). I do eat the chunk honey myself, I sell a lot of them and I've never had anyone complain. Nowhere in all the info that comes with the jars does it say they need to be washed out prior to use. I do look for anything in the glass before I use and the most I ever see is a piece of tiny lint that I'll blow out before filling.


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## Bee Arthur

I've been using boiling water to sterilize my muth jars before using them. I just sent an email to the supplier to see if they think it's necessary.

I do tend to be OCD, almost to a fault, when it comes to handling my honey. Unless you're a bit OCD, there are a lot of opportunities to pack unclean honey (I picture a guy in a hot honey house leaning over his buckets with sweat dripping from his forehead). Frankly, this uncertainty has made me a devout customer of my own honey, which I know is being handled in the most sanitary way possible--even if no one would know the difference.


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## NewbeeInNH

Bee - I've started thinking of those things lately also, along with wondering how people are applying treatments in their hives and whether they're super careful not to let any treatment chemicals get into their honey supply. That keeps me thinking - hmm. Maybe I'll just limit myself to local honey as in, my own back yard. You know what they say - CDO. (alphabetically, of course)


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## coastie

Bee Arthur said:


> I've been using boiling water to sterilize my muth jars before using them. I just sent an email to the supplier to see if they think it's necessary.
> 
> I do tend to be OCD, almost to a fault, when it comes to handling my honey. Unless you're a bit OCD, there are a lot of opportunities to pack unclean honey (I picture a guy in a hot honey house leaning over his buckets with sweat dripping from his forehead). Frankly, this uncertainty has made me a devout customer of my own honey, which I know is being handled in the most sanitary way possible--even if no one would know the difference.


The ME bee inspector told me about Burt of Burts Bees fame. His extracting house was an old pigsty and you could sometimes find pieces of his beard in the honey. Pretty nasty.


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## clyderoad

coastie said:


> The ME bee inspector told me about Burt of Burts Bees fame. His extracting house was an old pigsty and you could sometimes find pieces of his beard in the honey. Pretty nasty.


and you believe him?


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## coastie

clyderoad said:


> and you believe him?


Why wouldn't I? This would have been in the early 80s not today. Before he met Roxanne Quimby and started Burts Bees.


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## NewbeeInNH

clyderoad said:


> and you believe him?


Did you see the Netflix movie? Yeah, I could see that. LOL.

Still, very interesting dude.


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## clyderoad

coastie said:


> Why wouldn't I? This would have been in the early 80s not today. Before he met Roxanne Quimby and started Burts Bees.


Why would you? just because he said it?
Sounds like tall tale to me. A pot shot even.


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## Groundhwg

D Coates said:


> Nowhere in all the info that comes with the jars does it say they need to be washed out prior to use. I do look for anything in the glass before I use and the most I ever see is a piece of tiny lint that I'll blow out before filling.


Don’t sneeze into the jar(s) but blowing a bit of spittle makes it all okay.


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## Groundhwg

D Coates said:


> You and I apparently have customers who are related. I do the same thing with his bottle too. I don't wash my plastic bottles. I only use hex glass for my 12oz chunk honey. I've never washed those either. They come in bulk packaging upside down. They're sold as jelly jars. I pull them out of the box, flip them over drop the comb in there and pour in the honey, cap and label it. I've never smelled them though (I just got crate of them in and I'll give them a sniff when I open them up). I do eat the chunk honey myself, I sell a lot of them and I've never had anyone complain. Nowhere in all the info that comes with the jars does it say they need to be washed out prior to use. I do look for anything in the glass before I use and the most I ever see is a piece of tiny lint that I'll blow out before filling.


Nowhere on the glass jar package does it say wash before using? Well some things just make good sense. Will not say common sense since most of us are beekeepers and realize that common sense is not our strong suite. I just put new batteries in my flashlight and no where on the Every Ready package does it say; “Do not place in mouth and eat!” but I am not going to do it.


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## gww

I put a small peice of broken comb in a baggie that had a few rubberbands in it that I was using to fix comb with. My wife wouldn't eat it so I had to make some toast and eat it myself. It was good. I am thinking of putting a rubberband in all my jars.
As you can tell, I am not one of the commecial guys participating in this thread topic.
Cheers
gww

Ps I did wash the few rubberbands that was in with the comb before I used them to fix more comb in the hive.


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## jwcarlson

Boy this has really spun out of control...

To be absolutely clear, the glass bottles that I am washing are Ball mason jars. It says to wash them right on the package. They stink horribly when you first uncap them. This may not be applicable to other glass jars.


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## EastSideBuzz

jwcarlson said:


> Boy this has really spun out of control...
> 
> To be absolutely clear, the glass bottles that I am washing are Ball mason jars. It says to wash them right on the package. They stink horribly when you first uncap them. This may not be applicable to other glass jars.


You could have said this at the beginning of the thread and might have saved a lot of posts.


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## sqkcrk

Blair said:


> I just purchased a few cases of new jars with lids. They seem very clean. Would you use them as-is or would you run them through the dishwasher first?


Are new jars clean enough? Honey jars are. I don't know about other jars, like canning jars. But I suspect they are too. I bottle hundreds of jars a year, hundreds of cases of jars and plastic containers. They are ready to fill right out of the box.


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## Dabbler

EastSideBuzz said:


> You could have said this at the beginning of the thread and might have saved a lot of posts.


What ? . . . and avoid all this entertainment!


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## jwcarlson

EastSideBuzz said:


> You could have said this at the beginning of the thread and might have saved a lot of posts.


I think I did if you go back and look. 



jwcarlson said:


> The plastic honey ones from Mann Lake I use. Canning jars (glass) I wash then sanitize in the oven before putting honey in. Smell a new glass jar, if it's made for honey it might be clean. But Ball mason jars smell like fish oil.


You asked what I would do if I needed to do 100 cases... I said:


jwcarlson said:


> Would buy the ones from Mann Lake (or someone else) that are good to go. I'm quickly coming to that conclusion.


I think everyone else went bonkers though.


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## rmaxwell

I just bought a bunch of glass mason jars and couldn't stand the smell of the inside of the jars right out of the box. I care about what I provide to my customers and I care about what my customers think of me. Filled with honey, they may not know the difference. However, I wouldn't pass anything like that off to my customers and be at peace in my mind about it, so I wash/sterilize first unless they are the "ready to fill" variety.


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## EastSideBuzz

jwcarlson said:


> I think everyone else went bonkers though.


:lpf:


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## sqkcrk

rmaxwell said:


> I just bought a bunch of glass mason jars and couldn't stand the smell of the inside of the jars right out of the box. I care about what I provide to my customers and I care about what my customers think of me. Filled with honey, they may not know the difference. However, I wouldn't pass anything like that off to my customers and be at peace in my mind about it, so I wash/sterilize first unless they are the "ready to fill" variety.


Save time and money by buying Honey Jars. Something people look at and their brain says to them "HONEY!!". Mason jars are quaint, but honey jars help sell your product for you.


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## jakec

gww said:


> I put a small peice of broken comb in a baggie that had a few rubberbands in it that I was using to fix comb with. My wife wouldn't eat it so I had to make some toast and eat it myself. It was good. I am thinking of putting a rubberband in all my jars.
> As you can tell, I am not one of the commecial guys participating in this thread topic.
> Cheers
> gww
> 
> Ps I did wash the few rubberbands that was in with the comb before I used them to fix more comb in the hive.




I cant believe you lived!! the best honey ive ever had came out of an outside wall of a church. every now and then when im eating some of the honeycomb I got from that cutout, ill get a piece of plywood or something in with it. I just spit it out and eat another piece. aint killed me yet. now im not a professional honey taster or anything but it tasted just as good as the rest of the honey from that hive. no complaints from anybody I gave any to either and I gave full disclosure of where it came from.


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## Titus_TN

I'm sorry, but the obvious question here is "clean enough for what?"

To package honey in, or to hold syrup for bees? If I'm canning in off-the-shelf mason jars, those are going in the dishwasher first.


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## NewbeeInNH

The moral to this story is to eat it straight out of the comb - probably the most sanitized, best container for honey there is. Well, if your wax isn't contaminated with chemicals, of course.


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## Coach62

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Botulism in honey is real. That is why there is a common warning not to feed honey to infants.
> 
> 
> However ...
> 
> 
> Just because adults aren't affected by the botulism spores in honey doesn't mean that they are not there.
> 
> Further evidence of the _lack of sterility in honey_ is the transmission of American Foulbrood (AFB) spores in honey from infected hives to healthy hives.
> 
> AFB spores are very persistent, and may exist in commercially sold honey. AFB does not affect humans, so honey packers have no reason to test for AFB. But commercially packed honey may carry AFB spores - harmless to humans - but very hazardous to other bee colonies, so new beekeepers are advised not to feed packed honey to their bees.
> 
> 
> 
> Honey is "far far from sterile". :lookout:
> Give _me_ a break.
> 
> .


Incorrect - This article explains it best: http://honeybeesuite.com/honey-pasteurization/

You are confusing spores with live bacteria, which is like calling an acorn an oak tree.

As I said, if bacteria survived and grew in honey, it would spoil, this is just common sense. Botulism, if it survived, would contaminate the honey with toxins, making it inedible.

Now - you seem to be the only one that wants to take my statement to an extreme. I think pretty much everyone understood that I didn't mean sterile to the point of medical grade, I just meant free of live bacteria. Of course there are impurities, everyone knows that.

I perform air quality tests and inspections for a living. I run special spore traps, then I have them evaluated at a lab then I interpret the data for clients.

Bottom line is that the air we breathe is FULL of spores, mold, yeast and yes - botulism SPORES - not botulism bacteria. I've taken thousands of spore trap samples and analyzed the data. 

It is NOT the botulism bacteria that even kills you or makes you sick, it's the toxins they produce when alive. This is why I say, and correctly so, that there is no botulism bacteria in honey. If there was, it would be inedible after a matter of hours. 

Again - the spores are everywhere, in your yard, your house, and yes you're breathing them in right now.

I typically see outdoor spore counts of 4,000 to 12,00 per cubic meter of air, indoor air is usually lower. If there isn't that's how we know there is an indoor air quality problem. These spore counts are broken down into genus, not species, for that, we would have to culture them.


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## Rader Sidetrack

_Coach62_, this conversation about the _lack of sterility of honey_ got started when _you _took exception to _Crofter_'s simple comment back on page 2 of this thread of ...


crofter said:


> The honey you are going to pour into the jars is far, far, from sterile itself. (unless it is deliberately high temperature treated).


I provided several examples that support that honey is _not _sterile (botulism risk, AFB risk) and yet you seem to deny that those risks exist.

The fact that outdoor air is also not sterile really doesn't change the fact that honey is not sterile. 

Honey is a great product, and under normal circumstances is very unlikely to cause a human health problem*, _even for those that choose to bottle in new jars without sanitizing those jars first_. 



*Infants should not be fed honey due to the risk of botulism. By about 1 year of age authorities generally agree that children's immune system is strong enough to avoid issues with honey. See the links I posted earlier in this thread for supporting references.


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## crofter

I think of "sterile" as meaning there are no viable organisms present. That would include bacteria, viruses, spores, yeasts, beasts of any description!

Yes, un treated honey contains some of the above so I will rest my case that honey is _far from sterile_. Even pasteurized honey does not render it sterile though it does destroy common yeasts that may cause fermentation if the moisture content is on the high side.

The difference between botulism spores and botulism toxin is nothing profound. I agree that the air we breathe is full of all sorts of micro flora and so is honey. 

Your post reads like an infomercial for home air treatment systems?


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## Coach62

You guys can rewrite history all you want. There is nothing living in honey. You didn't say "far from sterile" You said "far, far from sterile" which is stretching the truth quite a bit.

Granted, sterile may not have been the best choice of words here for me to use, I'll give you that. However, my main point - that there is no bacteria present (living anyway) in honey is 100% true. If it wasn't true, it would spoil. This is just common sense!

Also, if bacteria survived in honey, you couldn't use it as a wound dressing - again, common sense, no matter how much you irradiated it as bacteria and viruses in the wound would grow in the honey. Honey kills bacteria and viruses - Even MRSA.

My only point was to get across that bacteria does NOT live, nor can it survive in honey - period. Honey is now even being used to kill antibiotic resistant viruses such as MRSA. Seems MRSA can eat penicillin for lunch, but honey kills it. 

I don't think anyone on this board thought that I meant honey was sterile to the point of being 100% without any impurities at all. I don't think anyone was running out to their hive and putting honey into an IV bag.


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## NewbeeInNH

//empties honey from IV bag//


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## Rader Sidetrack

Coach62 said:


> However, my main point - that there is no bacteria present (living anyway) in honey is 100% true.


Wrong! 


> *American Foulbrood*
> AFB is the most serious bacterial disease of honey bee brood and is caused by the bacterium Paenibacillus larvae.
> ...
> ...
> It always makes good sense to practice sanitation practices such as washing hands and hive tools between apiaries, avoiding used hive equipment of unknown or suspicious history, [HIGHLIGHT] and avoiding feeding bees honey from unknown sources.[/HIGHLIGHT]
> 
> http://www.ent.uga.edu/bees/disorders/bacterial.html


AFB is a bacterial disease, and can be transmitted in honey to bees. Ergo, there can be _live bacteria_ in honey!*



*AFB does not affect humans


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## crofter

Coach62 said:


> You guys can rewrite history all you want. There is nothing living in honey. You didn't say "far from sterile" You said "far, far from sterile" which is stretching the truth quite a bit.
> 
> Granted, sterile may not have been the best choice of words here for me to use, I'll give you that. However, my main point - that there is no bacteria present (living anyway) in honey is 100% true. If it wasn't true, it would spoil. This is just common sense!
> 
> Also, if bacteria survived in honey, you couldn't use it as a wound dressing - again, common sense, no matter how much you irradiated it as bacteria and viruses in the wound would grow in the honey. Honey kills bacteria and viruses - Even MRSA.
> 
> My only point was to get across that bacteria does NOT live, nor can it survive in honey - period. Honey is now even being used to kill antibiotic resistant viruses such as MRSA. Seems MRSA can eat penicillin for lunch, but honey kills it.
> 
> I don't think anyone on this board thought that I meant honey was sterile to the point of being 100% without any impurities at all. I don't think anyone was running out to their hive and putting honey into an IV bag.



I know you are trying to get a point across but it is a bit of a hard position to defend. You are surmising about what other people might have thought you meant. You make an analogy to the MRSA being killed by honey but that can not be extrapolated to mean that honey kills all organisms. You make this statement "If it wasn't true, it would spoil. This is just common sense!". Unfortunately many things people claim to be common sense simply are not factually supportable. Many organisms can be dormant in certain environments such as yeasts in honey. They are still alive and viable, all that needs doing is increase the water content to the point where the sugar levels are tolerable to the yeast and they become very active; that is because he honey simply was not sterile. It contained viable organisms. Even common packing house pasteurizing does not render it completely sterile.

The honey as a wound dressing that you are using as an illustration of concept is irradiated to kill all organisms. Honeys ph level and high sugar content makes it useful as a wound dressing but that is hardly main stream. That is however not the honey your bees walk over and you extract from your combs and filter through pantyhose or paint strainers.

Way back when this thread was new my input was along the lines of saying that though honey is far from sterile it is not prone to spoilage problems so why be overwrought about sterilizing the containers it will be sold in. Canning low acid low sugar foods is an entirely different situation as is rendering honey safe for infants and would require time and temperatures that would probably make it unpalatable. Radiation would likely do the trick better.


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## BadBeeKeeper

coastie said:


> The ME bee inspector told me about Burt of Burts Bees fame. His extracting house was an old pigsty and you could sometimes find pieces of his beard in the honey. Pretty nasty.





clyderoad said:


> and you believe him?





coastie said:


> Why wouldn't I? This would have been in the early 80s not today. Before he met Roxanne Quimby and started Burts Bees.


For sure...and I'd believe a lot worse too. I know some people who knew him...

I'm glad this thread came up, I'd been wondering about whether to wash the factory-packed containers too, and didn't think it would be practical.

Ball mason jars I wash, stuff that comes from bee supply or commercial food packaging suppliers I don't.


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