# Inside out Insulation.



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I see lots of video recently that suggest bees in cold climates do well with no insulation but much of this video shows the occupied frames well blanketed inside the hive bodies or at least tented with a film that keeps a bubble of warm moist air retained at the top of the frames and enclosed at the sides by follower boards. Some of these foam cored. They really are not wintering without insulation!

My suggestion is that the insulation has been moved from outside the hive body to a much smaller volume close to the clustered bees. The hive bodies still provide their inherent R value and create extra _boundary layers _that considerably augment heat savings. Seems like it could be a much more efficient use of insulation.

Enjambres described many times her use of foam follower boards to functionally turn 10 frame boxes in to 7 or 8 frame setups. From my experience the outer frames of honey are usually untouched. Sure they have some insulating and thermal mass benefit but is this efficient contribution to winter survival?

Could we be squeezing the colony down a bit in the fall instead of wringing our hands over them not getting all ten frame boxes filled and the cluster pushed down. They fill from the top down but that takes a lot of resources before the colony is forced down to the bottom: the best position from which to start the winter climb up through the stores.

There has been quite a bit of discussion about the negatives of colony manipulations in late fall and this idea of cold temperature reconfiguring for internal insulation would take some re-arranging of our thinking bonnets, wouldn't it? But if it meant wintering with good success on 15 or 20 lbs less of honey it could be well worth some head scratching.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> But if it meant wintering with good success on 15 or 20 lbs less of honey it could be well worth some head scratching.


"Hive inside hive" system has been long used.
A classic method that works (while being very efficient).

A North American way of keeping everything in 10f/8f commercialized equipment is getting in the way.
Once you realize there is nothing wrong with 12f/.... 24f.... 32f boxes (graduating back into the long hives on large brood frames) - the idea of "hive inside hive" is rather natural.

Actually, for the static, non-migratory, non-commercial beekeeping, the large hives are the way to go.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> I see lots of video recently that suggest bees in cold climates do well with no insulation but much of this video shows the occupied frames well blanketed inside the hive bodies or at least tented with a film that keeps a bubble of warm moist air retained at the top of the frames and enclosed at the sides by follower boards. Some of these foam cored. They really are not wintering without insulation!
> 
> My suggestion is that the insulation has been moved from outside the hive body to a much smaller volume close to the clustered bees. The hive bodies still provide their inherent R value and create extra _boundary layers _that considerably augment heat savings. Seems like it could be a much more efficient use of insulation.
> 
> ...


I would think a 20 frame hive could be reconfigured to 7x7x7 with 1.5 frame width follower boards on each side and an extra frame added to the bottom. or a 6x6x6 and pull 2 frames. I am considering the same for next year, on some of my 10F gear. IMO air is an insulation And why not add an empty super with a folded wool blanket or a bag of wood shavings, IF the folded plastic works would the added blanket work worse?

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> I would think a 20 frame hive could be reconfigured to 7x7x7


Nothing wrong.
But also once you try this, pretty soon you realize that a single large frame (Dadant/Ukrainian) makes it even simpler.
A single tier of sufficiently large frames - all you need.
Now that is simple.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The internal insulation would be a whole heck of a lot less trouble than wrapping and strapping it onto the outside of hives. Especially so when your hives are a mish mash of irregular widths and heights!


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregB said:


> "Hive inside hive" system has been long used.
> A classic method that works (while being very efficient).
> 
> A North American way of keeping everything in 10f/8f commercialized equipment is getting in the way.
> ...


Greg
respectfully,
you have frame Bias, your favorite is better than all commers.
For me* better way to go* except to get rid of the 1000 frames of comb I have and make all new frames and boxes, and need a different more expensive extractor.

very little of your picture cannot be done with Lang gear.

BTW 80% + of all the frames in the US are Lang. Sure to start new, I would consider a long frame. 
And If I burn the whole pile due to Foulbrood then I may consider.
Like your little surveys, I have asked every new keeper I have mentored, what hive they want, the long frame was never a choice, none made their own gear, so out came the catalog.

The guy out there recommending to do it your way "L" you do not like.

Not sure the point "you all have it wrong" plays well in the US
Did not Russia at some point introduce "standards" in Hive and Bee?
And how did that go? Most of the keepers in Europe have the frame they do because they were introduced to it , by family, by mentor, or by the local market.

It is personal choice, (the American way) and what is available (local market).
If this long frame, is so good, be a manufacture, or distribute, some of the long frame gear. Really so few folks make their own, most now buy.
If it is truly better the Market will show us, Capitalism works every time it is tried.
you only have 1 competitor......

If you wish to sell your idea/opinion, then sell it.

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> The internal insulation would be a whole heck of a lot less trouble than wrapping and strapping it onto the outside of hives. Especially so when your hives are a mish mash of irregular widths and heights!


exactually

need to think of a cost effective way to make a follower.
stick a piece of XPS and some cheap thin Ply of some sort.

GG


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

You are only insulating two opposite sides of the enclosure with this configuration.
This will only be marginally beneficial.
To prevent condenstaiton the top needs insulation to suit the locale, I'm in zone 8 and use R20 lids to keep the box from turning into a tropical rain forest.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Think about that link I sent you on "poor man's fiberglass" I think it is searchable. Been reading some old stuff on sizing burlap with flour paste. Would bee proof the foam and bind on the wooden top bar.

The idea of the deep, non standard frames that dont fit extractor, Makes Greg's fixation a bit of a game killer! I am working on the single deep 10 frame idea but it will use standard boxes and only the 12 3/4" sidebars would be custom. The foundation can be one and a half sheets of standard plastic or foundationless. Not many entrants to the hobby will be perverse enough to go that route though. For Greg's benefit that frame size rotated works well rotated into the deep Layens hive. I have one of them on the back burner.

The internal insulation and moisture bubble idea is going to get more consideration.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

JustBees said:


> You are only insulating two opposite sides of the enclosure with this configuration.
> This will only be marginally beneficial.
> To prevent condenstaiton the top needs insulation to suit the locale, I'm in zone 8 and use R20 lids to keep the box from turning into a tropical rain forest.


The enclosure now though becomes the 7 or so frames. Only the ends of them, not the main area of their sides would be exposed to the hive body walls. The plastic film over the top negates the dripping issue but I would still insulate the top. Top is dead easy to insulate compared to sides.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregB said:


> Nothing wrong.
> But also once you try this, pretty soon you realize that a single large frame (Dadant/Ukrainian) makes it even simpler.
> A single tier of sufficiently large frames - all you need.
> Now that is simple.


Agree
where do I order them from.....
Most folks today, are not with a wood shop to make their own frames, A few of us can and do.

there is getting them in a cost effective way
Having some even a few choices with foundation
And a cost effective extractor.

a new ish person 2 to 5 hives has that to over come.

GG


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I have one lang set up, I condensed the frames down to 7X7X7 on a DDM configuration with the empty space filled with slabs of styrofoam. A total of 21 frames, so in the normal way it would be 2 deep boxes for the area but stacked up it takes 3, I assume that it is easier to maintain the temperatures as heat rises. 

My deep hives are on 9 frames, I wonder now if I could have packed them in tighter on 7? This spring when I assess the honey consumption I am going to note where the remaining honey is.

I don't think you are far off the mark crofter, the UofG has a video on winter set up and the amount of insulation they use is minimal at best. If they can winter with such little insulation maybe a hive configuration that is taller and narrow with good side insulation and good top insulation would result in lower food consumption. At the very least it cannot be any worse.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> I have one lang set up, I condensed the frames down to 7X7X7 on a DDM configuration with the empty space filled with slabs of styrofoam. A total of 21 frames, so in the normal way it would be 2 deep boxes for the area but stacked up it takes 3, I assume that it is easier to maintain the temperatures as heat rises.
> 
> My deep hives are on 9 frames, I wonder now if I could have packed them in tighter on 7? This spring when I assess the honey consumption I am going to note where the remaining honey is.
> 
> I don't think you are far off the mark crofter, the UofG has a video on winter set up and the amount of insulation they use is minimal at best. If they can winter with such little insulation maybe a hive configuration that is taller and narrow with good side insulation and good top insulation would result in lower food consumption. At the very least it cannot be any worse.


ursa you just gave me an idea,
What if we use Gregs idea, when we can.
Make a follower that is D+D+M tall minus a couple inches.
make the 7x7x7 or 6x6x6 and then set the long follower in from the top with 1 set of ears and no seams.
less cuts less nails, muss and fuss. shoot the correct length could even just set on the BB with out ears.
the cluster tends to be round and there would then bee more air at the end than the center, the center would have the foam.

GG


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Gray Goose said:


> there is getting them in a cost effective way
> Having some even a few choices with foundation
> And a cost effective extractor.


You are right for many the effort to go outside the norm can be both expensive and time consuming if you do not have the ability to build your own. Not to mention it has a different learning curve and can require a willingness to look at a standard hive manipulation and figure out how to adapt it to a new stye of hive. Some will do it simply for the challenge, others won't and that is just fine. 

In my deep hives which are condensed down to 9 frames, I have at least 6" on each side of the nest which if filled with a styrofoam follower and a bag of batting is more insulation than I have on the outsides now. In my area I would probably still need front and back 2.5 inch styrofoam.


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## plantman (May 30, 2020)

Ursa.Have you ever not insulated?What zone of Canada are you in?
Grey Have you always insulated or tried both ways...
I read so many people that do insulate way farther South then I am...I personally haven't noticed a difference in survival.
Now my uninsulated 5 framers,a couple have perished..One literally went through all stores..
My bad management..


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> Did not Russia at some point introduce "standards" in Hive and Bee?


Yes they did - the best possible "standards" as they viewed at the time - 1918.
Then the Soviets (with their love for mega-state farms) - took it further to one and only standard - the Dadant.
Well, by the way them, the Russians and Ukrainians have been challenging all these artificial standards, especially lately due to access to more freedoms.
So the freedom to choose in the North American beekeeping is pretty much akin to the USSR's pretty much. Now, that's ironic.



> respectfully,
> you have frame Bias, your favorite is better than all commers.


I have bias like everyone one else.
The issue with everyone else - they would not even try the alternatives.
While I have tried more than one alternative by now.
In practice.



> If you wish to sell your idea/opinion, then sell it.


Now that I put away this "treatment free" project, I have more time for something else - more interesting and practically feasible, for a change.
Sure, will sell.
Will start small and locally, of course, and see what happens.
A great gig for the future retirement.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Yup always insulate I am in zone 2a. That said I am new to beekeeping and am following local advice. I have ideas but I won't go out on a limb with new methods until I have developed more skills.

I have had a swarm live in an unheated uninsulated shed wall made of 1x6 with both lower upper and mid entrances along with cracks. They survived until March 2019 thru multiple days of -30C and lower temps. at which time they died either from starvation or mites as I did not know how to apply either to a wall.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> Really so few folks make their own, most now buy.


Certainly, if you buy, they you stuck with what you buy.

But if you one of those folks who make their own - you have all kinds of freedoms.
Now, you have freedom to build more ergonomic equipment for yourself.

My main fuss is that while having all kinds of freedoms, those who make their own stuff, don't give it some thought how to make own ergonomic setup better.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

ursa_minor said:


> You are right for many the effort to go outside the norm can be both expensive and time consuming if you do not have the ability to build your own. Not to mention it has a different learning curve and can require a willingness to look at a standard hive manipulation and figure out how to adapt it to a new stye of hive. Some will do it simply for the challenge, others won't and that is just fine.
> 
> In my deep hives which are condensed down to 9 frames, I have at least 6" on each side of the nest which if filled with a styrofoam follower and a bag of batting is more insulation than I have on the outsides now. In my area I would probably still need front and back 2.5 inch styrofoam.


It is not much of a stretch for me to make a frame even deeper than the Dadant size. I think extra depth on a single frame is a clear winner for wintering. I have put together a number of different ideas picked up here on the forums to arrive at a single level deep hive that can use my existing Langstroth equipment.
Not much of it is original thinking but gleaned here and there. Trying to serve as many multiple duties as possible.

The frame is sized to use standard top and bottom bars and a full and a half sheet of deep langstroth foundation. The 12 3/4" depth is such that they house perfectly in two medium hive bodies stacked. This frame size also fits the Layens Deep hive body that handily uses two standard shallow frames quickly tied together to hang vertically and which can be separated to go in standard extractor.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> Agree
> where do I order them from.....
> Most folks today, are not with a wood shop to make their own frames, A few of us can and do.
> 
> ...


Like I said, this is not for the "buy, buy, buy" people.

However, of you are a "build, build, build" type - you have all kinds of flex.
Some of the constraints are not even for real.
Foundation is not a constraint.
Extraction can be a constraint, but should not be an issue for the "build, build, build" type or for those willing to pay extra or the irregular folk.


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## plantman (May 30, 2020)

Thanks for reply. 2 a I bet that can get interesting..Thank you


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

plantman said:


> Ursa.Have you ever not insulated?What zone of Canada are you in?
> Grey Have you always insulated or tried both ways...
> I read so many people that do insulate way farther South then I am...I personally haven't noticed a difference in survival.
> Now my uninsulated 5 framers,a couple have perished..One literally went through all stores..
> My bad management..


80's 90's 00' did not insulate, 10's 20's have insulated, And it has got warmer.
bees seem a lot more fickle in the last 20 years.
Have some wrapped in Tar paper, some in refeltix, some in XPS, a couple permanent, and 5 double wall (this winter is the first for them), so a few of each. still experimenting.

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregB said:


> Like I said, this is not for the "buy, buy, buy" people.
> 
> However, of you are a "build, build, build" type - you have all kinds of flex.
> Some of the constraints are not even for real.
> ...


Agree if I build, it can be anything.
All my "mentees" like 11-13 or so have not built all did not have a wood shop.
All ordered, 2 I build for. So the "Order" type beginning keeper is a very high percentage.
*My reference is to reality and the norm across the whole of USA and Canada.*
Even Sam Comfort bought hives till he ran out of funds.

you use the word "simple" a lot, if it was simple every one would be doing it. 
Its simple to go online and click an order button, and use plastic funds.

sure you and I can make what we want, and maybe 2 of 10 of the rest of the users. 
So I think what you are saying is A few keepers , have all the flexibility they wish for.

IF I were to go commercial, I would either need a shop going steady, or order, so the practical side of 1500 hives has to weight in.

I may have designed it different , but it is what it is.

GG


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

First off, @GregB, the new avatar is sad. Sorry about your team. That was ... well, unexpected doesn't even come close.

Just weighing in as a new beekeeper: We buy because of lack of woodworking skills, lack of time, lack of tools, or a desire to just get started without spending a year in the shop. Some or all of those may play into what @Gray Goose is trying to tell us. Even with a year to get ready, my equipment is not where I need it to be. Some of that may be because I'm moving, but people all have different challenges.

As I read some of these ideas I can see where we can learn from your experiments and where compromises can be had. For instance: Towards the end of the year leave the burr/ladder comb unmolested and emulate the "really long frame." Inspections would be limited to what could be seen from the top and the bottom of the hive, and it might be challenging to combine that with the removal of the outside frames and adding follower boards. It's a mental change, but something we can consider late in the summer.

Anyway, this is all very interesting to follow along with but I'd probably advise my fellow new beekeepers that this is probably an "advanced" discussion and not to stress over it. I have to say that because I find myself reading it and stressing; GG's post reminded me who I am and where I am in this journey.


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

Hello,
I have changed the insulation on my hives when I started, 2015 to 2" XPS foam insulation glued-on to the long side year round. For spring, fall and winter, I have changed my telescopic lids to be 4" larger in length & width and 2.5" higher. The lid gets a 2" XPS foam board cut to fit with 1/4 plywood glued to the hive side so the bees won't eat it up. the center has a 2" hole to match the inspection hole and I have one quart jars on all winter with syrup.









For the winter I strap 2" XPS foam board with cutout for the entrance








The jar is placed in a XPS foam board box to insulate and a paver plate is on top to hold it all down so the wind doesn't take it. It is interesting to see how different each hive takes the syrup now, some don't take any for weeks from November to January and then start, others take it all the time. I use to rap with insulation tarp, but haven't this winter. 

The 4"x6" wood frame now has 6" of XPS foam board all year, just didn't make a picture.








I haven't lost a hive in three years.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> exactually
> 
> need to think of a cost effective way to make a follower.
> stick a piece of XPS and some cheap thin Ply of some sort.
> ...


I cut 3/4in XPS to fit the brood frame instead of foundation when doing Blimov increase last spring. It worked well for me.
I still had bee space at walls....

Couple years ago I had 21 FR long hives and then I decided to divide them into 3x 6FR. I cut two pieces of XPS to have snug fit so the queens could not go from one new hive space to another. This worked, too. Later I replaced divided long hive with 6 frame boxes. I rather have 3 queens to overwinter in them than 1 queen in a long box.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Biermann said:


> It is interesting to see how different each hive takes the syrup now, some don't take any for weeks from November to January and then start, others take it all the time. I use to rap with insulation tarp, but haven't this winter.


So you feed syrup all winter? Now that is interesting, I have been pondering this simply because when I checked in my hives a week ago the heat under the down pillow was striking and I thought to myself, at those high temperatures when the bees were up on the sugar anyway why would they not take syrup or would that add too much moisture to the hive?

You obviously follow the mindset of "challenge what you are told". 

So in your set up the sugar is in a styrofoam box set on top of the hive or within the top insulation.

ETA geez louise I have a ton to learn LOL.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

Biermann said:


> For the winter I strap 2" XPS foam board with cutout for the entrance


What are the 'corner' doo jobers? Have seen similar corner protectors used in shipping, but none I have ever seen were weather proof.


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## Biermann (May 31, 2015)

@ursa_minor yes, the jar sits on top of the inspection hole upside down  with three small holes. The XPS block sits over it to insulated it. Again interesting to study who takes syrup and who doesn't. It's mostly the strong hives going in to winter that take the syrup, the weaker hives only later and when it is really cold. I guess the then have difficulty heating up stores (?).

@ william, you are correct, thus are normal shipping corner supports and weather is not a concern here, moisture is at short supply where I am.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

What a great discussion! Thanks to all contributors.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

crofter said:


> I see lots of video recently that suggest bees in cold climates do well with no insulation but...
> 
> There has been quite a bit of discussion about the negatives of colony manipulations in late fall and this idea of cold temperature reconfiguring for internal insulation would take some re-arranging of our thinking bonnets, wouldn't it? But if it meant wintering with good success on 15 or 20 lbs less of honey it could be well worth some head scratching.


It depends on how cold your climate is, -25F here last night. I can tell you that I have not yet found any kind of bee that does well here with no insulation.

I think there are pics of my insulation rigs in my profile. The inner foam boards are Gorilla-taped to the black corrugated jackets. Pop the hive top, flip it over and add a moisture board. Just slip on the bottom holder frame, and slide the insulation assembly down over the outside. It takes very little time. Tighten the frame nuts and pop an insulated outer cover on.

With the insulation left on through May, my spring build-up goes better and faster. I have even observed brood right out to the inner sides of the outer frames on either side. That is basically 9 frames of brood in a 10-frame box. I suck at math, but my brain says that this is a not insignificant advantage over wasting space by putting the insulation _inside_.

Note- leaving the insulation on _past_ the end of May here results in bees in trees.

(The Gorilla Tape is a recent modification, it only took 10 years to figure out that it was a lot easier than putting the jackets on first, and then jamming the foam board down inside. Of course, it takes extra room to store assembled, but I have plenty of that here.)


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I agree about the necessity of insulation. I would be in the same climate as yours for temperature and winter duration. Your insulation system looks efficient labor wise especially if they are uniform in height. If you have a mish mash of dimensions and hive footprints, then one size does not fit all.

I thought the management system that triggered this thread could be a low budget way of getting a similar R value from virtually free insulation placed inside most any shape of hive body. Not likely something a sideliner or commercial is going to pursue on this continent and it is not going to suit the style of someone with fancy garden ornament bee hives.

I have gang wrapped hives and used various methods that did not lend itself to easy access or it was too much work to put back on so my bees often shivered thru April and May when they would have undoubtedly benefited from insulation being left on. This year I will be able to leave it on.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> It depends on how cold your climate is, -25F here last night. I can tell you that I have not yet found any kind of bee that does well here with no insulation.
> 
> I think there are pics of my insulation rigs in my profile. The inner foam boards are Gorilla-taped to the black corrugated jackets. Pop the hive top, flip it over and add a moisture board. Just slip on the bottom holder frame, and slide the insulation assembly down over the outside. It takes very little time. Tighten the frame nuts and pop an insulated outer cover on.
> 
> ...


+1 for your comment above.
This is my.
~$20 for this R6 covering 3 colonies 6 frames over 6 frames. Only bottom ventilation and R20 as the top covers under the dome. We will see soon how good it is.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BTW, here is an oversized wintering box (or is it a hive?).
I use this hive-inside-hive setup here just the same.
On the left side, behind the open entrance I am wintering a 5f smallish colony in its own box.
No lid.
A piece plastic, a couple of blankets and an XPS slab tossed over the frames.

The rest of this brown monstrosity is storage for this winter - it is full of frames (30-40?).
I let the bees to rob-clean them all and now the frames are just sitting there in a pile until I need them in spring.
Now that I think of it - better check for mice in the storage section.
Never happened before, but say never - never.


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## david stern (Dec 13, 2021)

jtgoral said:


> ~$20 for this R6 covering 3 colonies 6 frames over 6 frames. Only bottom ventilation and R20 as the top covers under the dome. We will see soon how good it is.


Nicely Done. Is the ventilation through the entrance or is there additional ventilation like a Screened BB?


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

david stern said:


> Nicely Done. Is the ventilation through the entrance or is there additional ventilation like a Screened BB?


6x 1.5in holes with 1/8 screen in each bottom board.


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## david stern (Dec 13, 2021)

jtgoral said:


> 6x 1.5in holes with 1/8 screen in each bottom board.


Thank you for the reply. I am going back and forth about greater ventilation than the entrance can provide.
Having run my hives with upper entrances in winter, I don't know what might happen to a colony in an overly tight hive.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

jtgoral said:


> 6x 1.5in holes with 1/8 screen in each bottom board.


good plan, there holes cannot be blocked by snow.
Have you ever had dead bees block the screened holes and snow block the entrance at the same time?

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Gray Goose said:


> good plan, there holes cannot be blocked by snow.
> Have you ever had dead bees block the screened holes and snow block the entrance at the same time?
> 
> GG


Some screened area near the front of the floor board would be a good idea I think. I always have hives tipped a bit to the front for drainage but even in summer, rain water can wick under the entrance reducer and keep a bit of puddle the bees have to walk through. Some screened areas would release that water.

A few days ago I checked hives to see if I was getting any ice build up from condensation dripping down hive fronts and freezing on bottom board. There was some Ice, probably a couple of ounces worth but enough that the entrance reducer was frozen in. They could be jarred loose for cleaning dead bees but the screened holes etc would take away the worry of suffocation if bottem entrance only setups got iced over.

So far I am pleased with zero upper entrance or ventilation. The bees moisture produced and moisture consumed seems so far to be pretty well in balance. The partially exposed homosote sheet for inner cover is wicking out some moisture of course. May have to remove a bit more moisture when brood up increases honey consumption and resultant moisture production.

The front of the hives, being the coldest surface, with only 3/4" foam board will have some condensation for a water source for the bees. When you go with zero upper ventilation you are absolutely dependent on the bottom entrance staying open. There are many disclaiming posts about how breathable the snow is and what good insulation it is but ice from inside and dead bees can block a small entrance air tight. Not a common occurrence but if you go the bottom only entrance / ventilation route, I think it wise to keep that in mind.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Hey crofter, I gather from your post that you have no back up entrance. This is too risky for my liking. My backup entrance is a 1/2 round hole in my feed shim. I have previously put a 1/2 round hole below the hand hole in my bottom brood. No upper entrance.

I moved back to 1/2 round hole in feed shim so bees will sense flying weather. It is always good to have a cleansing flight. Nosema problems and crapping inside are diminished. The thought is that with only bottom entrances bees may not sense a flying day.

I have continued on with quilt boxes and have added a clear flexible plastic sheet over my sugar blocks. I was at the hives last weekend when temp was 7C. I noted condensation droplets near perimeter of plastic sheet. So bees will have access to moisture. I also noted very few dead bees in the snow in front of the hives. I am thinking that bees have not felt the need to fly to forage for water.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> There are many disclaiming posts about how breathable the snow is and what good insulation it is bu*t ice from inside and dead bees can block a small entrance air tight.*


This is because the conventional bottom entrances are of NOT good wintering design.
IMO this all boils down to the southern hive designs where the serious wintering is not a concern.
Then this very idea is being copied all over without proper considerations.

Good Northern entrance does not have these issue (does not matter if it is a "bottom entrance" if you want to call it that).
I have been trying to convey this idea about "forever" and still don't get through. 

Here are examples of good *Northern *entrances.
Look and think *why*.



















Source:


Lazutin Hives


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

GregB said:


> Now that I think of it - better check for mice in the storage section.
> Never happened before, but say never - never.


I've had red squirrels destroy stored frames (that weren't in boxes). Those little buggers seem to have a thing for gnawing wood.

I pulled some mouse nests out of my few remaining hives when I insulated last month (I was way late due to being in the hospital and incapacitated for months). They were on top of the frames in the top boxes. I don't know if there are any further inside because I just didn't have the strength to open them up, I barely had the energy to get the insulation on. Despite my efforts to avoid it, Covid screwed me, my lungs are messed up and my heart is damaged. Docs can't tell me if I will ever get any better.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

mgolden said:


> Hey crofter, I gather from your post that you have no back up entrance. This is too risky for my liking. My backup entrance is a 1/2 round hole in my feed shim. I have previously put a 1/2 round hole below the hand hole in my bottom brood. No upper entrance.
> 
> I moved back to 1/2 round hole in feed shim so bees will sense flying weather. It is always good to have a cleansing flight. Nosema problems and crapping inside are diminished. The thought is that with only bottom entrances bees may not sense a flying day.
> 
> I have continued on with quilt boxes and have added a clear flexible plastic sheet over my sugar blocks. I was at the hives last weekend when temp was 7C. I noted condensation droplets near perimeter of plastic sheet. So bees will have access to moisture. I also noted very few dead bees in the snow in front of the hives. I am thinking that bees have not felt the need to fly to forage for water.


This is an experiment focusing on the premise that upper entrance is not a necessity; with that said I have an upper entrance channel precut in the 3/4 homasote that is about 5/16 X2" and is presently filled with a styrofoam biscuit and is occluded underneath by a strip of vinyl. The foam filler can be pulled out and the strip of vinyl tugged out in about a minute to give an upper entrance and more ventilation if I get conditions that threaten the bottom entrance.

Your half inch dia hole would likely be quite functional and is certainly much less than what many people feel is essential. I wintered many times with an upper entrance a bit larger than that plus the whole 16 X 20 screened bottom of a loosely filled shavings box for moisture venting. I think that was way, way too much of a good thing. Survival was good because colonies were heavy on stores and approaching 0% mite levels. Quite an alarming amount of fly out into the snow though and I probably was needlessly burning through 20 pounds of extra honey. Workable but perhaps far from optimum.

I am leaning towards single deep colonies of Dadand depth (or even a bit deeper) frames. If the reduced ventilation is more efficient it will fit in well with the single brood box.
Like Biermann has done I probably will leave year around 2" foam on the brood boxes. Getting lazy in my old age!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> Despite my efforts to avoid it, Covid screwed me, my lungs are messed up and my heart is damaged. Docs can't tell me if I will ever get any better.


Sorry to hear, BBK.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> Getting lazy in my old age!


Getting efficient you mean?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Greg those entrances are fine for the deep hives but the langs are a bit different. Some people use a hole under hand hold cutout to good advantage to get away from the ice problem with a bottom board level entrance. There are some advantages perhaps to using a bottom slatted rack box under Lang types that provide considerable under frame space and a bit higher entrance.

Your posts have not entirely fallen on deaf ears but dont get greedy and start demanding explicit compliance!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

BadBeeKeeper said:


> Despite my efforts to avoid it, Covid screwed me, my lungs are messed up and my heart is damaged. Docs can't tell me if I will ever get any better.


Sure sorry to hear that news; hopefully time will help clear things up.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> Greg those entrances are fine for the deep hives but the langs are a bit different.


Well, that so-called bottom board "explicitly required" by the Langs needs a slight redesign.
All it is to it.

No - you don't need explicit compliance.
But then why complain of those silly bottom boards then (and still keep using them).
They do work great in Louisiana, USA - just as they meant to do. 

PS: so to not be just theoretical - a better bottom board for the Northern usage should be
1) deeper box/tray with the entrance razed above the floor - so the dead bees/ice build up don't block the entrance (no matter how much they build-up).
2) no landing board whatsoever - ditch that useless snow/ice collecting device
3) sufficient drainage/ventilation built-in into the floor

Sort of like this (testing in progress):


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregB said:


> Well, that so-called bottom board "explicitly required" by the Langs needs a slight redesign.
> All it is to it.
> 
> No - you don't need explicit compliance.
> ...


I tried that and rejected it.
Heavily loaded field bees would land short or collide, and end up in the grass.
It would take them several min. to rest up and retry, some times loosing the pollen from a basket.

Same reason planes launch from a flat carrier at sea , and land on a flat deck, it is more forgiving.

Can it work sure, is it optimal? debatable.
I am not convinced the hole is the best I can do.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> I tried that and rejected it.
> Heavily loaded field bees would land short or collide, and end up in the grass.


Nothing wrong with a temporary summer-only landing board (which is not a part of the hive so you are stuck with it in winter).

But again - IF the entrance is high enough so that there is enough of the landing pad under the entrance, the problem of under-shooting goes away.
Landing pad does not need to be horizontal (the same as the typical tree trunks are not horizontal, but they serve the bees just fine).

Those Lazutin pictures I posted above - that exact idea of a vertical landing pad used.
Nothing wrong with this approach used in the bottom boards.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GregB said:


> Well, that so-called bottom board required by the Langs needs a slight redesign.
> All it is to it.
> 
> No - you don't need explicit compliance.
> ...


The hive bottom redesign is on the list. As is, is not the best to go along with no upper entrance. 

As to complaining about compliance, wasnt that your lament, not mine?

Yes I definitely have to get more efficient; the combination of laziness and limpingitis demands it. I wont be shy about punching holes here and there in that 22" deep Layens hive I am putting together. No concessions to beauty on that one.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Gray Goose said:


> good plan, there holes cannot be blocked by snow.
> Have you ever had dead bees block the screened holes and snow block the entrance at the same time?
> 
> GG


No. We had max 6in of snow this winter and I have not many dead bees yet. 
The bottom brood box under the dome has half open disk entrance during winter. This disk is behind the dome but the gap is 3/4in, so the dome works as a wind shield. The upper brood box is insulated because the disk is closed and the handle from the lower box has a snug fit inside the dome. This is before winter:


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> There are many disclaiming posts about how breathable the snow is and what good insulation it is but ice from inside and dead bees can block a small entrance air tight. Not a common occurrence but if you go the bottom only entrance / ventilation route, I think it wise to keep that in mind.


Top entrance with screen for shrews can also ice up tight if not managed properly, ask me how I knowLOL.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Great Thread!
We've always attempted to insulate the tops of our hives, using several different methods, from 2" foam board (doubled) to layered towels, quilts, to wood shavings. 

This is the first winter we 'also' used clear poly over the brood nest as described in other threads and vids originating from Eastern Europe (Many THANKS for those, I watch them over and over))..

Something we've noticed this season; 
Normally, when temps reach above freezing we would typically see bees scattered in front of the hives....and then celebrate the appearance of 'live' bees. We 'thought' is was a good thing 

So far, 5 of 6 colonies are still alive and there has been no such occurrence....yet, leaving us to believe the theory that bees scattered in from of hives is more an indication that they are thirsty and seeking moisture. All 5 survivors are in the top boxes and are being fed dry sugar under the poly. 

Fingers are crossed that we don't have a repeat of last years February which was unusually brutal and deadly for our bees.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Oh yeah, we also eliminated top entrances this season...also a first...for us. 

We don't worry about snow or ice accumulation as we lean a wide board against the hive boxes to protect from wind and such.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

I understand the theory of having an entrance/exit higher up. I also think it might be more challenging for the bees to keep clean. Just more to consider.

My bees are in a Lyson hive, which is EPS. I'm wondering about the burlap/plastic approach on these. I guess I'll see what the hives look like when I get a good day to pop them open.

It's 22 where my bees are now, going to be 60 later in the afternoon. Hopefully, they get a chance to enjoy the weather. We'll be loading up what's left in the house and making the final drive on Monday.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

Lee Bussy said:


> My bees are in a Lyson hive, which is EPS. I'm wondering about the burlap/plastic approach on these. I guess I'll see what the hives look like when I get a good day to pop them open.


How do you like Lyson? I bought one BeeMax last fall for a "leftover" July split colony and so far it is good.


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

jtgoral said:


> How do you like Lyson? I bought one BeeMax last fall for a "leftover" July split colony and so far it is good.


Well, I fell into these. The gentleman who gifted me a couple of nucs had them in these (6-frames.) They seem very well constructed, but the jury is out till I can get in there (maybe Monday.) The weight is great. I understand they still need paint as they are affected by UV light. A potential downside is that the bottom is screwed to the box. While that's not unique for a nuc, I wonder if after a few times the threads would start to loosen up. The locations are set by a recess so there's no chance to move them if that happens.

I do like there are vents in the bottom and top, both can be capped off. The entrance can be closed or have a "mouse guard" size, but I'm curious if the mice would be incented to try to chew the plastic. No issues yet. There's also room on top of the frames for a nice candy board - I put 8# on each.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Lee Bussy said:


> Well, I fell into these. The gentleman who gifted me a couple of nucs had them in these (6-frames.) They seem very well constructed, but the jury is out till I can get in there (maybe Monday.) The weight is great. I understand they still need paint as they are affected by UV light. A potential downside is that the bottom is screwed to the box. While that's not unique for a nuc, I wonder if after a few times the threads would start to loosen up. The locations are set by a recess so there's no chance to move them if that happens.
> 
> I do like there are vents in the bottom and top, both can be capped off. The entrance can be closed or have a "mouse guard" size, but I'm curious if the mice would be incented to try to chew the plastic. No issues yet. There's also room on top of the frames for a nice candy board - I put 8# on each.


8# as in 8 Pounds?
wow I though a 4 pound brick was big

GG


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

Gray Goose said:


> 8# as in 8 Pounds?


Yes. It was a matter of creating the box that would fit in the space, and then figuring out how much sugar would fit in the box.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Lee Bussy said:


> Yes. It was a matter of creating the box that would fit in the space, and then figuring out how much sugar would fit in the box.


hmmm your bees must be hungry, that is more than a pound a frame of bees.
well the up side it it should last a while.

GG


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## Lee Bussy (May 28, 2021)

It won’t spoil. I can dissolve it in syrup or use it next year.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Lee Bussy said:


> I understand the theory of having an entrance/exit higher up. I also think it might be more challenging for the bees to keep clean. Just more to consider.
> 
> My bees are in a Lyson hive, which is EPS. I'm wondering about the burlap/plastic approach on these. I guess I'll see what the hives look like when I get a good day to pop them open.
> 
> It's 22 where my bees are now, going to be 60 later in the afternoon. Hopefully, they get a chance to enjoy the weather. We'll be loading up what's left in the house and making the final drive on Monday.


They dont do much cleaning in winter in the north so if you use a higher entrance it is a good idea to make sure there is "sedement" space below. I have found in spring that the spaces between bottoms of frames are occasionally dunged up with dead bees and debris when you dont have the traditional bottom entrance.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

crofter said:


> Sure sorry to hear that news; hopefully time will help clear things up.


 Thanks, but not looking good. Been 4 months, still in pain, fatigued, standing for 20 minutes leaves me exhausted. Went for x-rays last week, no reduction in the clots. Cardiology consult in April to see if surgery of some type is needed/advisable for the heart damage.

Checked hives the other day, another one bit the dust. The few remaining ones were flying in relatively warm temps...then another freeze blast and more snow. The good news is that it was warm enough for long enough that I can get a vehicle out to the road now. We were snowed in pretty good for a while.


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