# Mated Queen who can tell



## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The suppliers of mated queens are producing large numbers of queens so how do they get them all mated and how do they tell before they sell them? I suspect that the suppliers of packages are not producing all the queens for the packages that they sell so how would they know the quality of the mated queen that they send with the package?


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## stajerc61 (Nov 17, 2009)

That is the question that i have asked myself. How do you know that you're not getting a virgin?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Acebird said:


> The suppliers of mated queens are producing large numbers of queens so how do they get them all mated and how do they tell before they sell them?


Not all get mated.......How do they tell if mated?......Simple, they look for eggs in the mating nucs from where they are pulled..........


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

snl said:


> they look for eggs in the mating nucs from where they are pulled..........


What happens to all these nucs that they just made queenless? Wouldn't it make more sense to sell the nucs?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Acebird said:


> What happens to all these nucs that they just made queenless?


You're talking about queen rearing, so you just place another cell in the queenless nuc and let em go at it again..........


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

Buy LOCAL if you can!! You will have a better chance of a mated queen.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Bees of SC said:


> Buy LOCAL if you can!! You will have a better chance of a mated queen.


Really? Why?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> how do they get them all mated and how do they tell before they sell them?

From my experience a lot of them don't bother to tell... and a lot of them are virgins.


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## angel (Jul 23, 2013)

If she's eating pickles, then.... :lpf:

No seriously, like snl said, eggs in the nucs would indicate a mated queen. But couldn't this be confused with laying workers?

For all the nucs they just made queenless, again like snl said "place another cell" to get another queen mated. But, I would assume some beekeeping operations at one point will either combine them back into other hives or worse (just let them die out). 

I would suspect a lot of people after they have made their $ would just let them die out if they are a lazy beekeeper and don't want to go to the trouble of combining them with another hive (newspaper).


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

No seriously, like snl said, eggs in the nucs would indicate a mated queen. But couldn't this be confused with laying workers?,
Not a all, esp if you know for what you're looking.

For all the nucs they just made queenless, again like snl said "place another cell" to get another queen mated. But, I would assume some beekeeping operations at one point will either combine them back into other hives or worse (just let them die out). ,
Nope, at the end, they are combined to form colonies and used again the following year.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> > how do they get them all mated and how do they tell before they sell them?
> 
> From my experience a lot of them don't bother to tell... and a lot of them are virgins.



Look elsewhere for another breeder. There are unscrupulous people in every profession......... sadly, even beekeeping....


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

My advantage of buying local, other than queens acclimated to my climate, is the breeder is a short drive away and if he plans on staying in business he needs to stand behind his product and protect his reputation. When I do need to buy a mated queen, virgin or queen cell, I can simply load up a nuc and visit his apairy. Having developed a personal relationship is really nice and frequently very informative.


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

snl,think about it. If you buy local you know where she came from and if you have problem you can get help. I'm not saying don't buy from another state, just buy local. You will usually get a phone # and email that works or you can go back for help.. Thats the way I do it..JMO


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

Eikel,, Thank You.Thats what I'm talking about.Service, relationship. LOCAL


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Bees of SC said:


> snl,think about it. If you buy local you know where she came from and if you have problem you can get help. I'm not saying don't buy from another state, just buy local. You will usually get a phone # and email that works or you can go back for help.. Thats the way I do it..JMO


I agree, it's much easier to get help if you have a problem, but just because they are locally mated, does not provide you with better mated queen as you stated in your first post.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Eikel said:


> My advantage of buying local, other than queens acclimated to my climate, is the breeder is a short drive away and if he plans on staying in business he needs to stand behind his product and protect his reputation. When I do need to buy a mated queen, virgin or queen cell, I can simply load up a nuc and visit his apairy. Having developed a personal relationship is really nice and frequently very informative.


I agree totally with what you've written, however the thread was "mated queen who can tell," not the benefits of buying local.....


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## Bees of SC (Apr 12, 2013)

I didn't say better queens, I said "Better chance", JMO


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Buy from someone with a good track record of producing good bees and offering great customer service. Large queen producers are not necessarily bad queen producers, you won't be a large producer for long if you aren't offering a pretty good product. The only real problem I have with most of them is that they are usually caged after only laying for a few days out of necessity because of the limited size of the nuc she is in. I can't believe its ever a good idea to "shut down" a young queen after such a short period of time.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Bees of SC said:


> I didn't say better queens, I said "Better chance", JMO


Just because the QB is local, does not give a "better chance" that they are better mated.......


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> The only real problem I have with most of them is that they are usually caged after only laying for a few days out of necessity because of the limited size of the nuc she is in. I can't believe its ever a good idea to "shut down" a young queen after such a short period of time.


Totally agree, some pull the queen when they just see an "egg or two," esp early in the season.......


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

I can only post my experience of queen rearing from grafts and from splits for one year. Queen rearing takes a lot of time and resources. I can't see how you would want to make queens, *while confirming they are all well mated* confirm capped brood etc., when you could when you could sell nucs instead. Rarely did I have a situation where I wanted to sell a confirmed mated queen only and not the entire nuc. To confirm my queens mated status I always waited to see new eggs and capped worker brood from those eggs. This takes up valuable time and space in an apiary. I also just left them in the nucs until I sold or needed them so they could keep laying.

I am certain I will buy queens here and there over the years. However the queens I was able to produce on my on, on a small scale, seemed to be larger, better mated, and rearing to go out of the very few that I have bought. The biggest thing you are able to control about your own queens is... culling out the lower third of "dinks". From a queen rearing perspective it would be much easier to just send a queen and replace if it didn't work out.

I am sure there are lots of good queen breeders out there though - I have only enjoyed focused queen rearing for one season.

going with local breeders is a good idea, but part of my management is centered on introducing varied genetics to the area. That means adding in a couple new queens from various locations each year.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

A trained eye can easily tell the difference between good eggs and infertile eggs long before they are capped over. If anything, an early caging may result in a few good queens getting discarded because occasionally there is a bit of a learning curve for a new queen with the first eggs being infertile followed by a nice pattern of fertile eggs.


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

jim lyon said:


> A trained eye can easily tell the difference between good eggs and infertile eggs long before they are capped over. If anything, an early caging may result in a few good queens getting discarded because occasionally there is a bit of a learning curve for a new queen with the first eggs being infertile followed by a nice pattern of fertile eggs.


do you mean the comb placement or pattern of the eggs or the actual look of the eggs (fertile/nonfertile)? I haven't heard about this before, please do tell.




jim lyon said:


> If anything, an early caging may result in a few good queens getting discarded because occasionally there is a bit of a learning curve for a new queen with the first eggs being infertile followed by a nice pattern of fertile eggs.


this is why I always waited to see capped brood.

Thanks


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Beelosopher said:


> I can only post my experience of queen rearing from grafts and from splits for one year. Queen rearing takes a lot of time and resources. I can't see how you would want to make queens, *while confirming they are all well mated* confirm capped brood etc., when you could when you could sell nucs instead. Rarely did I have a situation where I wanted to sell a confirmed mated queen only and not the entire nuc. To confirm my queens mated status I always waited to see new eggs and capped worker brood from those eggs. This takes up valuable time and space in an apiary. I also just left them in the nucs until I sold or needed them so they could keep laying.
> 
> I am certain I will buy queens here and there over the years. However the queens I was able to produce on my on, on a small scale, seemed to be larger, better mated, and rearing to go out of the very few that I have bought. The biggest thing you are able to control about your own queens is... culling out the lower third of "dinks". From a queen rearing perspective it would be much easier to just send a queen and replace if it didn't work out.
> 
> ...


"I can't see how you would want to make queens, *while confirming they are all well mated* confirm capped brood etc., when you could when you could sell nucs instead."

It's thousands of queens and queen cells they are selling, while using the nucs over and over again.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Acebird said:


> The suppliers of mated queens are producing large numbers of queens so how do they get them all mated and how do they tell before they sell them? I suspect that the suppliers of packages are not producing all the queens for the packages that they sell so how would they know the quality of the mated queen that they send with the package?


mated queen who can tell.
One of the limitations of Practicing non-intervention beekeeping is the inability to distinguish a properly laying mated queen from a non laying or drone laying queen after practicing non intervention beekeeping for 3-4 years.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> A trained eye can easily tell the difference between good eggs and infertile eggs long before they are capped over.


Huh? How? I can tell the difference between a drone layer and good queen, but not between a "good egg and an infertile egg."


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

clyderoad said:


> "I can't see how you would want to make queens, *while confirming they are all well mated* confirm capped brood etc., when you could when you could sell nucs instead."
> 
> It's thousands of queens and queen cells they are selling, while using the nucs over and over again.


How many queens do you produce each year? I would be curious to know what a typical queen rearer needs to produce to be successful.

For my climate I emphasize the word *want*

At about 67% successful mating rate (which can be generous), you would need a lot of nucs and constant year round breeding to produce that many confirmed mated queens. I am not saying it isn't possible. I am saying, nucs seem to be easier money for the workload in my climate. I am sure as you scale up you get some economy to that scale, hopefully outweighing the negatives.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Note that this thread is {nominally} about _LARGE _queen rearing operations. I haven't been to _Clyderoad_'s apiary, but I don't believe he was referring to himself.

Here is the website of a _Large _queen rearing operation:
http://www.ohbees.com/about-us.php#Q

Note the references to thousand of acres of clover and mustard cover crops, climate-controlled tractor trailers for delivering packages, etc. That is a _large _queen rearing operation.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

Bees of SC said:


> snl,think about it. If you buy local you know where she came from and if you have problem you can get help. I'm not saying don't buy from another state, just buy local. You will usually get a phone # and email that works or you can go back for help.. Thats the way I do it..JMO


This is fine....until you are looking for specific genetics to upgrade your stock. Sometimes to get a really fine queen (think Glenn queen, for example), you have no choice but to buy from a distance. If the breeder has the reputation for fine queens, that reputation is important to him and he will do his best by you.

JMO

Rusty


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Beelosopher said:


> How many queens do you produce each year? I would be curious to know what a typical queen rearer needs to produce to be successful.
> 
> For my climate I emphasize the word *want*
> 
> At about 67% successful mating rate (which can be generous), you would need a lot of nucs and constant year round breeding to produce that many confirmed mated queens. I am not saying it isn't possible. I am saying, nucs seem to be easier money for the workload in my climate. I am sure as you scale up you get some economy to that scale, hopefully outweighing the negatives.


I am refering to the big queen producers- "It's thousands of queens and queen cells *they* are selling, while using the nucs over and over again." 
I produce between 100 - 150 queens each year for myself and to sell.

take a look at the Olivarez Honey Bee operation to get an idea of the scale in which these guys operate.

I do not think there is a "typical" queen rearer.


(missed your post Rader) so I guess I'm saying what Rader said :scratch:


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Although the links that Clyde and I provided don't seem to indicate from the link/URL text that they are the same, they both are to sites about the Olivarez Bee/Queen facilities.




... great minds think alike ...


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

Thanks Rader 




Rusty Hills Farm said:


> This is fine....until you are looking for specific genetics to upgrade your stock. Sometimes to get a really fine queen (think Glenn queen, for example), you have no choice but to buy from a distance. If the breeder has the reputation for fine queens, that reputation is important to him and he will do his best by you.
> 
> JMO
> 
> Rusty


+1




clyderoad said:


> I am refering to the big queen producers- "It's thousands of queens and queen cells *they* are selling, while using the nucs over and over again."
> I produce between 100 - 150 queens each year for myself and to sell.
> 
> take a look at the Olivarez Honey Bee operation to get an idea of the scale in which these guys operate.
> ...


So with your 100 to 150 queens, are you selling just the queens or as nucs? If you have the chance to sell a nuc or a mated queen, which way do you lean? Are you rearing and then banking? 

I know I could rear a lot more queens than I did, and maybe sell them all. Truth is I really love rearing queens by grafting and by notching and raising the bees. I just wonder at what number the quality will slip for me personally. For me that is when I have so many hives I can't recall which ones are which - that means for me I will enjoy a smaller apiary. 

I have seen quite a few local guys make attempts to ramp up after some success and they hit a wall - I believe it was due to over taxing their apiary locations with too many hives. To rear lots of queens you need lots of bees, to keep lots of bees you need lots of forage. I think this is where mass queen rearing gets tough unless you are dedicated to it.



snl said:


> Huh? How? I can tell the difference between a drone layer and good queen, but not between a "good egg and an infertile egg."


Me too!


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## ApricotApiaries (Sep 21, 2014)

Some queen guys pick their queens pretty early. Certainly some virgins get missed in the process. But chances are if she is laying she has mated. It seems like an unmated queen takes a while before she starts laying, and then it will be all drones. If you talk to your queen producers, you might find some who leave their queens in the nucs a little longer, for example until there is capped brood. This helps evaluate a little better. It also gives her time to fully develop her smell (pheremones), which might give them a better chance at being accepted. 
Often it dos take them a bit of practice before they start laying a good pattern. Multiple eggs in cells, scattered drone brood... But then they clean up and get on it. 

Usually you can spot a virgin by size and behavior. Right after hatching they are huge and pumped full of air. Then they shrink down and run all over the place making alot of noise (piping). The Piping stops after they figure out they are the only one home. They will slow down too, but if they are provoked start running again, also prone to fly. After she has mated, she plumps up considerably (assuming good food), and slows down her movements. 

The only sure 100% ways to tell a mated queen from a virgin that I know of are:
1. You saw her shortly after a mating flight with the mating sign still stuck in her (i have never seen this but I am sure its possible). 
2. She is laying a nice pattern of worker brood
3. You hold her in one hand, with fingernails of your other hand, pull off the last two segments of abdomen. Roll the goop around in your fingers and eventually you will find the spermatheca, a tiny fairly hard orb (about sandgrain size). If it is crystal clear, shes a virgin. If it is thick milky white, she is mated. If it is somewhat clearish opaque white, she was either poorly mated, or she is an old queen towards the end of her rope. Of course, after this experience, you no longer have a mated queen.


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## Beelosopher (Sep 6, 2012)

ApricotApiaries said:


> It also gives her time to fully develop her smell (pheremones), which might give them a better chance at being accepted.


although my comments are off topic; I have noticed that bought from far away queens, in my anecdotal experience, have a much higher rate of supercedure than the ones I raised on my own this year. That impacts hive development significantly if you don't give them a bee bomb (borrowed frame of capped brood from a donor hive).


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Acebird said:


> The suppliers of mated queens are producing large numbers of queens so how do they get them all mated and how do they tell before they sell them? I suspect that the suppliers of packages are not producing all the queens for the packages that they sell so how would they know the quality of the mated queen that they send with the package?


To answer Brians question a little more directly. Large queen mating operations work on a pretty strict calendar though some delays can be made in check back schedule in poor mating weather. A large mating yard (like the Olivarez operation) ideally will be checked after queens have been laying 4 to 5 days to allow for population maintenance in the nucs. At that point it is much easier to observe both the pattern and also if the eggs are developing normally into the larval stage. Queens producing odd patterns particularly if the larvae has an overly "milky" appearance, should be discarded and the nuc rebuilt with some fertile eggs as it is highly inefficient to allow a small percentage of nucs in the yard to get out of sequence with the majority. Sure, there are gray areas and some tough calls but my rule is if there is doubt then it's probably bad and proceed accordingly. Perhaps it's just one of those things that is more easily shown than described and requires a bit of experience. Mating success is typically somewhere in the 80+% range. Under 80 is disappointing and 90%+ is pretty rarified air and rarely achieved.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

clyderoad said:


> One of the limitations of Practicing non-intervention beekeeping is the inability to distinguish a properly laying mated queen from a non laying or drone laying queen after practicing non intervention beekeeping for 3-4 years.


Funny, I have never found that as a limitation. Non laying or drone laying queens result is short lived colonies. So far the only intervention method that would limit me from determining a mated queen is the one suggestion of ripping the queen apart and looking at the spermatheca. I can find worker brood very easily.

Thanks for all that commented. I thought I might try a package but I think that is a bad idea for me.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> Under 80 is disappointing and 90%+ is pretty rarified air and rarely achieved.


This is why I like splits so much for an apiary of just 3 hives. If you split 3 hives you are just about guaranteed to end up with 5 hives and if you have 30% overwinter losses you end up with the same 3 hives you started with.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

jim lyon said:


> ......Queens producing odd patterns particularly if the larvae has an overly "milky" appearance, should be discarded and the nuc rebuilt with some fertile eggs....


Okay Jim, you have our attention here. Please help us understand the significance of 'milky' larva and the effect it has a mating NUC or good sized hive. Keith Jarrett advocates plenty of bee milk is a sign of well nourished larva. Must be a gap in my education.  TIA


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Lburou said:


> Okay Jim, you have our attention here. Please help us understand the significance of 'milky' larva and the effect it has a mating NUC or good sized hive. Keith Jarrett advocates plenty of bee milk is a sign of well nourished larva. Must be a gap in my education.  TIA


The "milky" appearance I am describing is wholly different than the appearance of normal worker larvae in a pool of jelly. They result from eggs deposited either by a poorly mated queen or simply a laying worker. Until I can come up with a picture you are just going to have to go with my inadequate description.


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## imthegrumpyone (Jun 29, 2013)

"Baby Bee Bump"


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

> From my experience a lot of them don't bother to tell... and a lot of them are virgins.


Really, this is misinformation.

If a professional breeder was really selling queens without even checking if they were virgins or not, he would not be a professional breeder very long.

Let's have a hands up. Who has bought a caged queen, to find out it is a virgin? While anything is possible so it may have happened the odd time, it would have to be extremely rare.

What's a lot more likely, is not well mated queens can be sold, that lay OK for a short time but are quickly superseded. That, for the breeder, is much harder / impossible to tell.

When I was a full time queen breeder we worked to a system, only mated and laying queens were sold, after ensuring they had a good brood pattern. If there was doubt about a queen for any reason, it was faster to just pinch it & put another cell in.

But to lump all professional breeders together and say a lot of them don't bother to tell, and a lot of the queens they sell are virgins, is well, ignorance at best, and at worst, amongst the worst professional slander I have seen on Beesource. It isn't true.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> The "milky" appearance I am describing is wholly different than the appearance of normal worker larvae in a pool of jelly. They result from eggs deposited either by a poorly mated queen or simply a laying worker. Until I can come up with a picture you are just going to have to go with my inadequate description.


That's a pic I'd really like to see.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Should add to my last post. A cross that commercial queen breeders have to bear, is client mistakes.

The common ones are the client finds his hive queenless, so buys a new queen and puts it in. But he did not know the hive had raised a virgin. The caged queen gets killed upon release, and when the guy takes a look he sees the virgin and accuses the breeder. The other one breeders get, is the virgin goes on to mate and start laying, and the guy thinks it is the queen he bought from the breeder. But it makes vicious bees or has some other fault, he then tells 10 friends the queens from this breeder are terrible.

As someone who has been in the business, I can say we get more than our share of this kind of thing. Which is not to say queen breeders are perfect, they are as perfect as anyone else. But the ones I know anyway, take considerable pride in their work. You have to, to be in the business.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> Really, this is misinformation.
> 
> If a professional breeder was really selling queens without even checking if they were virgins or not, he would not be a professional breeder very long.
> 
> ...


<<What's a lot more likely, is not well mated queens can be sold, that lay OK for a short time but are quickly superseded. That, for the breeder, is much harder / impossible to tell.>>

not well mated queens are what I have run into the last few years=quick supersedure. 
it has become a bigger issue over time. And I'm certain the breeders of these queens do not intend to sell poorly mated queens,
but it's happening. Particularly the early season queens and they have come from both down South and California.

<From my experience a lot of them don't bother to tell... and a lot of them are virgins. >
I just shake my head at these one liners.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> What's a lot more likely, is not well mated queens can be sold, that lay OK for a short time but are quickly superseded. That, for the breeder, is much harder / impossible to tell.


OT what is the difference if the queen is poorly mated or is a virgin that is too old?  This is happening to a number of beekeepers. My suspicion is it happens more to a hobbyist than a commercial beekeeper. Because like you said if it happens to a large buyer it will hurt the producer and the large buyer is not a newbie that can be blown off as not knowing anything.

Secondly, I thought it was easy to tell if a queen is properly mated simply by the brood pattern. So it seems to me the problem is short cuts, not doing a thorough check like Michael Bush said.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

There are many reasons why queens can be poorly mated, but the effect is she mates, starts laying, all looks normal, then after a few weeks or months her sperm supply runs low, or out, and the bees replace her. Or don't, and she becomes a drone layer.

In most cases there is absolutely no way for a breeder to tell if she is going to fail in a few months, or not. The pattern can be completely normal and all looks well.

Ace, it may seem to you that the problem is short cuts. Or MB may think that breeders don't even check if they are mated. Like I said, hearing this stuff is just a cross that the industry professionals have to bear. There is no way to defend against it, you sell someone a perfectly good queen, they screw up, and blame the breeder. Happens constantly.

I enjoy selling to commercial beekeepers. As obvious from what Clyderoad said, they understand bees so do things right, they also understand and accept the odds, that some things such as early supersedure can be reduced by the breeder, but not eliminated entirely. Commercial beekeepers who buy in bulk get lower priced queens and accept there will be a % failure for whatever reason.
Breeders do not, as you suggested Ace, separate out duds and send them to hobbyists. Ridiculous notion.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Really, this is misinformation.
>If a professional breeder was really selling queens without even checking if they were virgins or not, he would not be a professional breeder very long.

It's obvious by how they look and how the bees abandon them to move next door that they are virgins. I'm not the only person having these issues. It has become a common problem across all the suppliers. When was the last time you bought a package from California or Georgia, Oldtimer?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I think you know the answer to that, I have been a seller not a buyer.

I do however read what people say, and there are plenty of opinions posted about queens people have bought. If virgins were commonly being sold as mated queens I would have expected to hear a lot more about it.

trouble with selling a queen, is you are selling a living thing, and have to rely on the skill of the buyer to go the next step and get it safely into his hive and accepted by his bees. Any number of things can go wrong during that process, or even before the process has started (there could be a virgin in the hive for example) especially if he is a raw nubee.

If you think bees abandoning certain hives and joining others after a package install means the queen was a virgin, that kind of reasoning would explain what you have said. Just so you know though, queens I have sold with, or for, packages, are guaranteed mated and laying I do not sell anything else. But people still get drift.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> It's obvious by how they look and how the bees abandon them to move next door that they are virgins. I'm not the only person having these issues. It has become a common problem across all the suppliers.


Really? Early supercedure problems, yes. Poorly mated queens, yes. _*COMMON*_ that virgin queens are shipped in lieu of mated queens? I don't think so. Where are you getting the information that this "a common problem across ALL suppliers?"


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> It's obvious by how they look and how the bees abandon them to move next door that they are virgins. I'm not the only person having these issues. It has become a common problem across all the suppliers. When was the last time you bought a package from California or Georgia, Oldtimer?


Not trying to prop up *Mr. Bush*...he certainly does not need any propping.

*Oldtimer*, I really enjoy your high class postings. It is good to know that high caliber, honest folks like yourself are still out there. And like someone else alluded, most of the beekeepers out there would fall in that category.

But talking about packages...If one was to put together a package, and that package is presented with a virgin queen, what other choice does this "new bee colony" has, when it comes to accepting or not this Virgin? 
I mean if one thinks about it, a hopelessly queen less colony, with no comb, no brood, no eggs, no chance to make a queen...How close to that situation, is a bee package without a Queen ? What other situation would be out there that a bee colony would be, or could be made, hopelessly queen less?

Now, take that 3 lb package, give it a caged Virgin Queen and send it out in the world. What other chance would that package have if it was not to accept that Virgin Queen? 
I mean, besides absconding, or moving to a neighboring hive that does have a laying queen?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes you have good point Apis Maximus, if package bees are hived with a virgin (and yes I have done this often), there is a high chance the bees will join the neighbour, if the neighbour has a laying queen.

But this does not prove the converse, ie, that any package that decides to join the neighbour must have had a virgin. Instead, MB should look at his practise of releasing the caged queen at the same time as hiving the package. I recommend against this because it causes the exact problems he is having. The queen should be left in the cage for the bees to release even though they may have already accepted her.

It's actually only a very clever beekeeper who can hive a good number of packages into hives in close proximity, without having drifting problems that can leave some hives in jeopardy.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Should add to all that, that MB is correct, I have not purchased a package from Georgia, so I cannot comment from personal experience, as he can.

However I would find it incredible that a commercial breeder would sell a virgin as a mated queen, it is hard to make such a mistake. But, as I have no personal experience with these breeders I can only offer an opinion.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I bought three packages last year with queens from the same supplier. The first clustered away from the queen cage on the first night when it was 30 degrees or so. The replacement sent from the local distributor got right to business, but went drone layer pretty quickly. The other two packages were pretty good. Both were superceded in the summer though. All four of these queens were supposed to be and were sold as Carniolan. Only one was the rest were bright Italians. 25% correct on the race leads me to believe that the large commercial queen breeders may not be overly attentive. Was the first queen a virgin? No clue... she was much smaller than the replacement and subsequent "good" queens in the other packages, however. For what other reason would they cluster away from her given that she was in the cluster at dusk?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

There is constant advice and encouragement for hobby beekeepers to maintain nucs, and make their own increase - both individually and as local groups. If more of us would follow this good advice this conversation would be irrelevant. Instead a bunch of us discover in mid winter that we have had losses (that might have been prevented in many cases) and then get in a hurry to buy bees weeks before they should normally be available. And blame every mishap on the very people who bail us out.

Packages and producers are constantly being represented as low quality and somehow nefarious - by the same people who complain about how expensive packages are and also want them as early as possible. As the saying goes... Good - Cheap - Fast - pick two... The part that goes unsaid is ...and then take responsibility for your choice.

To answer the original question - "Mated Queens - who can tell?" Professional queen producers can tell, because it is their business. The rest of us can easily tell when we produce our own queens - when we find a nice pattern of healthy brood. It's really pretty simple.


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> ... if package bees are hived with a virgin (and yes I have done this often), there is a high chance the bees will join the neighbour, if the neighbour has a laying queen.
> 
> But this does not prove the converse, ie, that any package that decides to join the neighbour must have had a virgin.


*Oldtimer*, thanks for engaging in the conversation.
You are absolutely right in the sense that yes, a package that decides to join the neighbor hive, does not necessarily do so because it has a virgin.

But, that was not my line of thinking. 

So, I'll try again. IF one WOULD set up a package with a caged Virgin, is there a chance that the package would have no other choice but accept that Virgin? 

I do it all the time with mini mating nucs...hopelessly queen less bunch of bees, put together with a Virgin, closed up a few days, and off they go and become a bee colony with a laying queen. The principle at work is quite similar. Is it not?

Now, take that concept a step further. IF it can be done, and it does work...why is not possible that one COULD, ON PURPOSE, do it with packages? As in deliberately doing it? 

Because it is not right? Because it is not moral? Because you and I and many others would not do it? I am not arguing for or against the morality or the correctness of the issue. I am just pointing out, that it can be done. And if human history would bring anything to the table, would clearly show, that if things can be done, many times they get done.

Personally, I think it is a wrong thing to do. Not because it could not work. But because if one would deliberately do it, at least it should say so and let the buyer know...and maybe help by suggesting ways to mitigate VIRGIN queen management in packaged bees. Sort of like truth in labeling. 
Though, I am not holding my breath on that one.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> I would have expected to hear a lot more about it.

I think you have but you must have missed it. You hear about it everywhere there are beekeepers pretty much all the time. 

>But this does not prove the converse, ie, that any package that decides to join the neighbour must have had a virgin. Instead, MB should look at his practise of releasing the caged queen at the same time as hiving the package.

The abandoned queen is almost always still in the hive either because I have not released her (which I do just to continue to experiment) or she's loose with either one or two bees with her and the rest are gone. It makes no difference if she is released or not to the percentage. Last time I did packages I left five of them in the cages and had worse results (not statistically significant, but certainly indicative that it did not matter much). But I think they have more respect for a queen who is free than one in a cage.

>If you think bees abandoning certain hives and joining others after a package install means the queen was a virgin, that kind of reasoning would explain what you have said.

I raise queens. I know how virgins are treated by the bees. How they behave around them. I know what virgin queens look like. I tried to find other explanations, but I can only conclude that a lot of them are just not mated at all.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> >Really, this is misinformation.
> >If a professional breeder was really selling queens without even checking if they were virgins or not, he would not be a professional breeder very long.
> 
> It's obvious by how they look and how the bees abandon them to move next door that they are virgins. I'm not the only person having these issues. It has become a common problem across all the suppliers. When was the last time you bought a package from California or Georgia, Oldtimer?


Why do you need outside package bees? and how to they fit into your treatment free apiary ?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

David LaFerney said:


> Packages and producers are constantly being represented as low quality and somehow nefarious


Corporate America...
This company has been selling these widgets for many years and has a reputation of good quality products. All of a sudden these widgets become a craze and orders start increasing 50-75 percent. The company needs to expand instantly so they hire new people who haven't had the time to be completely trained. The owners of this company are the same. They haven't changed so they still believe in selling a good product. A sudden increase in widget sales is bound to result in lower quality. There is almost no way to avoid it.
The best way for the company to deal with the situation is to make good on the bad widgets that went out the door.
I hate to mention that I worked for a long time in a medical widget factory and I have seen instant success result in a lot of failures.

We are in a craze folks. More and more people are getting bees.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

When I had time to raise queens, the packages gave me a lot of mating nucs earlier than I could set them up otherwise. I'd install the packages in mid April and break them up for mating nucs in early to mid-May and sell off the package queens cheap to local people who wanted queens about then for splits. But it didn't work out that well as the quality of packages kept going down. I don't bother with them anymore. If I had more time to spend to focus on overwintering more nucs it never would have been of much use to start with...


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Sorry Apis Maximus, you are right I did miss your original point, now I get you.

And you are right of course, deliberately selling virgins as mated queens COULD be done. 

However that does not automatically mean that ALL queen breeders (which would include Michael Bush) are doing it, or that they don't even bother to check if the queen is a virgin or not.

However as stated I don't personally know how each US breeder conducts themselves so it's pointless me continuing in this particular discussion.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> It has become a common problem across all the suppliers.


I'm guessing you're including yourself as part of the problem since you stipulate it is "common problem across all the suppliers."


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Michael Bush said:


> When I had time to raise queens, the packages gave me a lot of mating nucs earlier than I could set them up otherwise. I'd install the packages in mid April and break them up for mating nucs in early to mid-May and sell off the package queens cheap to local people who wanted queens about then for splits. But it didn't work out that well as the quality of packages kept going down. I don't bother with them anymore. If I had more time to spend to focus on overwintering more nucs it never would have been of much use to start with...


It seems everyone in the colder weather locations has tried a 5 gallon bucket full of tricks to get things going earlier in the spring. Myself included.
The overwintered nucs seems like the best bet for many and is the route I'm taking although I still buy early queens (not packages) to make up for nuc losses over winter.
Thanks


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I've had one caged queen (provided as a backup for a number of packages) that was in the cage and looked fine....except that she had no wings.

Other than that, I've seen much more of what appears to be virgins loose in the package (2 separate clusters on opposite sides of the hive.....half the bees swarming from a newly installed package, etc).

I wish the package suppliers would shake the bees through an excluder...it would eliminate this issue.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I thought a virgin would go through an excluder.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I thought a virgin would go through an excluder.


Not in my experience......


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Queens do get past excluders sometimes (i use good metal ones if it is important)...but the thorax size does not change as the queen mates and matures....the thorax is what is too large to pass through an exluder.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Must be insanely small queens if they go through an excluder. I don't think I've ever had it happen, unless the excluder wire is bent.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'm guessing you're including yourself as part of the problem since you stipulate it is "common problem across all the suppliers."

I was meaning the big suppliers. Most of the smaller suppliers take more time. Many of the smaller suppliers won't ship a queen until they get a good laying pattern of CAPPED worker brood. I definitely will not ship a queen until she's been laying long enough to get some capped worker brood from her. This not only verifies that she is laying but that she's not a drone layer and that she's been laying long enough for better ovariole development.

You certainly don't need to take my word for it. Ask around.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I bought some plastic excluders as a deal a few years ago and I did occasionally have a queen get past them. I now use metal ones and have not had that problem since.

I often hear beekeepers complain about large patches of drone brood in supers above excluders, and I assume this to be a motivated queen looking for a place to lay drones.


Oldtimer said:


> Must be insanely small queens if they go through an excluder. I don't think I've ever had it happen, unless the excluder wire is bent.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >I'm guessing you're including yourself as part of the problem since you stipulate it is "common problem across all the suppliers."
> 
> I was meaning the big suppliers. Most of the smaller suppliers take more time. Many of the smaller suppliers won't ship a queen until they get a good laying pattern of CAPPED worker brood.


Thanks for correcting /clarifying your post as you were previously stating that _*ALL*_ suppliers were guilty.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Thanks for correcting /clarifying your post as you were previously stating that ALL suppliers were guilty.

Sorry I was not more specific. I was making a generalization because:
1) I see it from all of the large suppliers
2) I do not want to single any of them out as if they are the only ones

If I thought it was just one supplier I might specify which supplier...


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >Thanks for correcting /clarifying your post as you were previously stating that ALL suppliers were guilty.
> 
> Sorry I was not more specific. I was making a generalization because:
> 1) I see it from all of the large suppliers
> ...


All large suppliers? How many have you done business with and why would you continue doing business with them?
Sorry, but I find these sort of generalizations really tacky. It assumes that all large suppliers are similar and that their large commercial customers must have really low standards or short memories. 
Admittedly it's been a few years since I have had to purchase any bees or production queens from anyone but I know many of these large suppliers and I know them generally as hard working, astute businessmen who take pride in what they do. They set up their check back calendars and train their workers accordingly. Most are multi generational family owned entities. Yes, there is a problem with queen longevity that we didn't see a few decades ago but I think that pretty is pretty much a nationwide beekeeping problem that all queen raisers large and small struggle with. I'm not going to say that these large producers sell the very best queens money can buy but the accusation that they are routinely shipping out virgins is totally unwarranted. 
Oldtimer really nailed it when he said that queen producers get a lot of the blame for poor and inexperienced beekeeping practices. They are the easiest place to lay the blame when things go wrong.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>All large suppliers? How many have you done business with and why would you continue doing business with them?
>Sorry, but I find these sort of generalizations really tacky.

Hmmm... I was trying not to point fingers at anyone particular because it looks like an industry problem to me... 

I've bought packages over the last four decades from virtually all of the big suppliers in California, Georgia, Texas, Missisipi etc. I correspond with thousands of beekeepers regularly and thousands more on occasion. My conclusions are based on my experiences and their experiences.

I withdraw all of my statements... everyone go buy your own bees and draw your own conclusions.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> I withdraw all of my statements... everyone go buy your own bees and draw your own conclusions.


In all honesty Michael, what did expect the reaction(s) to be when you first blister all queen suppliers (except yourself), then retract that statement to just say the "big" guys? Did you not think that "Big" breeders and friends of "big" breeders would not react?

I "think" I know what you were trying to state, but you did not state it wisely........(I've done the same in the past)........


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

deknow said:


> I bought some plastic excluders as a deal a few years ago and I did occasionally have a queen get past them. I now use metal ones and have not had that problem since.


For the life of me I can't figure out why metal would be better than plastic. Metal will bend so in use it could get dinged and leave a wider gap. That won't happen with plastic so why isn't plastic better? It defies logic.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Plastic won't get dinged? 

"It defies logic." :lpf:


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I've bought a lot of queens from big suppliers as well as small breeders. I've bought a good amount of packages too. I have NEVER gotten a queen that was unmated (unless I only paid for a virgin). I'm not saying that they were all superstars, but my experience is very different than what MB is suggesting. In all my transactions, when there was a problem, e.g., very quick supercedure, it was resolved to my satisfaction.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Something here defies logic almost daily! Conjecture being voiced as experience!

If you dont clean top bars completely when you put the plastic excluder back the openings can be pushed staggered and essentially larger gaps exposed. Plastic also has far more restriction to air circulation as the blocked to open ratio is much higher than steel.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>In all honesty Michael, what did expect the reaction(s) to be when you first blister all queen suppliers (except yourself), then retract that statement to just say the "big" guys? Did you not think that "Big" breeders and friends of "big" breeders would not react?

I don't think that's what I did at all. But I'm done with this.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> >In all honesty Michael, what did expect the reaction(s) to be when you first blister all queen suppliers (except yourself), then retract that statement to just say the "big" guys? Did you not think that "Big" breeders and friends of "big" breeders would not react?
> 
> I don't think that's what I did at all. But I'm done with this.


Unfortunately, that's EXACTLY what you did......... I'm sorry you don't see it....


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

crofter said:


> Something here defies logic almost daily! Conjecture being voiced as experience!
> 
> If you dont clean top bars completely when you put the plastic excluder back the openings can be pushed staggered and essentially larger gaps exposed.


I would put that as a mistake by the beekeeper rather than a disadvantage of plastic. The restricted ventilation is true but is it enough to make a difference especially in your area?


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## jdpro5010 (Mar 22, 2007)

a little off topic but in my experience plastic queen excluders seem to do more damage to the bees than the metal ones. I am not sure if it is the rough edges of plastic compared to the rounded edges of the metal ones. As for the whole package bee and purchased queens...... I gave up on those 6 years ago. I now am only using queens raised by me and my survival rates through winter have sky rocketed. The last time I purchased queens (and it was in midseason not early) 100% percent of them were dead within 2 months. My earlier experiences with other suppliers was not any better. So as someone suggested on here earlier I stopped buying them simple! Now I raise my own by what ever method is easiest at the time.


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

Referring to the question in the OP, I raise queens for sale and wait until I see capped brood to ship them.


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