# Pros and Cons of Having Free Space in Frame Top Feed Area



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

*For optimum wintering in cold climates.*

I have seen some photos of a piece of plastic sheet, canvaas, reflectix etc. floated over the dry sugar feed on frame tops. I have commonly wintered hives quite sucessfully with an inch and a half space between frame tops and the bottom surface of a quilt box. When lifting quilt box for a peek it appears that a great part of the cluster is clinging to the mesh bottom of the upper surface. Would they be better off if held down between frames by the loose plastic etc. sheet laying down on top of the feed? Am I giving them too much space that they need to "condition" to their optimum humidity level?

I believe I have seen Vance G. mention creating a moist bubble atop his colonies.

The idea seems more prevalent the last few years that we may be causing more suicide missions in winter to get water. Water that could be easily made available by a small controlled condensation area.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I had put a 2 inch thick square of styrofoam insulation directly on top of my candy boards last winter and the moisture was so high the candy was wet thru, there was mold on all my frames , and, although I am not sure it was the water that killed the bees, they were soaked. A small controlled area might be good, but how to make it so it is not directly over where the bees choose to cluster is my worry. 

Maybe an upper entrance combined with a cover over the feeding rim might allow some moisture to escape and some to remain. Or would a larger area of uninsulated space around the entrance allow the condensation to be on a wall instead of overhead. Ignore all my musings if they seem silly, I am just looking for a way to keep my bees alive this winter. 

This year I am more confused than last.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think any deliberate condensation point should be on the front wall and also the hive tipped forward. If you go into cold weather with gallons of syrup not dried down and capped that could be hard to control condensation. Even with hives tipped and lower front entrance open ice can accumulate to block off all air exchange.

I am not understanding whether the whole hive top had 2" foam insulation or just above a smaller area of candy board. Foamboard is impermeable to moisture exchange. Did you feed late with a lot of weak syrup?

My experiments with 4 or 5 inches of loose shavings in a screened bottom medium box vented above are very much the other extreme of vapor permeability! Too much so perhaps but zero condensation. The bees were drier than wooden idols!


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

The candy board covered the entire top frame and the foam insulation filled the entire top of the candy board, above that I had more insulation. I feed the first of Sept. but I could have fed too slowly and it did not all dry but most of it was capped.

I am running deep hives so I have a circular entrance about 3 inches from the bottom and do not have a problem with bees blocking the entrance so I have no need to tip the hive.

I believe my lack of upper entrance for ventilation, coupled with the sealed top of the candy board rather than a box of shavings was the problem. I am looking at any and all winter configurations for my cold zone and, as with most things, the methods are wide and varied, hence the confusion.


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## AR1 (Feb 5, 2017)

I avoid anything above the bees that is non porous. Killed a couple of hives that way, too much water. No plastic, styrofoam or anything like that. I lay sugar cakes directly on top of the frames, or I have tried on top of the inner cover central hole. Both work. On top of that fiberglass batting insulation, paper side down, directly on top of the sugar and frames. Warm but allows moisture to move through. The fiberglass batting is cut to perfectly fit a medium or deep box and I use two layers in one box.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

AR1 said:


> I avoid anything above the bees that is non porous. Killed a couple of hives that way, too much water. No plastic, styrofoam or anything like that. I lay sugar cakes directly on top of the frames, or I have tried on top of the inner cover central hole. Both work. On top of that fiberglass batting insulation, paper side down, directly on top of the sugar and frames. Warm but allows moisture to move through. The fiberglass batting is cut to perfectly fit a medium or deep box and I use two layers in one box.


 Thanks: 
I have had good success too with porous material above the bees; just was wondering if I was missing out on something that the impermeable membrane above the bees would provide. The pictures of the loose sheet of poly etc., seem so confidently portrayed. I had thought about not having the membrane full size of the frame tops so air flow around its perimeter would occur but questioned whether the cluster could get split with bad results.

Is there some real benefits here and I am merely missing the enabling details?


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

crofter said:


> If you go into cold weather with gallons of syrup not dried down and capped that could be hard to control condensation.


I am surprised how many beekeepers in my area/climate continue heavy feeding well into late fall. Yes, the bees take the feed but I doubt there's enough time to dry out the feed. In spring, moisture, condensation and what to do with leftover food in the frames is a common topic at the club meetings. 

I use insulation boards above the inner covers. My inner covers have a 3/4 of an inch rim so the insulation board doesn't sit directly on the inner cover ( some dead air space ). I often see bees chewing little passage holes in the insulation board before winter really sets in. In spring and summer, occasionally those passages will be propolized from the inside. 
Personally I think the boards help. As does the fact that I don't feed beyond October 1 to give the colonies enough time to dry out whatever feeding I do in September.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Ursa
This year I am more confused than last. 

great to hear of your "Progress" when you think you know it all is when you plateau.

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> Thanks:
> I have had good success too with porous material above the bees; just was wondering if I was missing out on something that the impermeable membrane above the bees would provide. The pictures of the loose sheet of poly etc., seem so confidently portrayed. I had thought about not having the membrane full size of the frame tops so air flow around its perimeter would occur but questioned whether the cluster could get split with bad results.
> 
> Is there some real benefits here and I am merely missing the enabling details?


Frank are they up there harvesting moisture?
or blocking air flow.

Have you discovered the why on the bees against the quilt box?
maybe try plastic on 1/2 and then see where they cluster.

when mine are against the quilt box they are out of honey, they normally are several inches down when I open them.

how often do you open in the winter, Maybe Mine are the same I often do not open at all.

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GG; there would be moisture to harvest at the front of the box around the small entrance so I am beginning to think they might be using their bodies to limit upward air flow through the screen, single layer burlap and 4 or 5 inches of coarse shavings. Only in the corners of the shavings box will there be any perceptible moisture. I dont lift the quilt box in winter since there will be several pounds of bees clinging to the underside and hard to lower the box with bees all over upper and lower edges. One of the suppose virtues of vivaldi styles is that a portion of the quilt/shavings box can be lifted to expose the bees beneath and sugar or pollen patties added with a minimum of cold air allowed in or breaking propolis seals between boxes.

Some posters have mentioned being able to view the bees through a clear plastic sheet where this is incorporated. Space above the frames of a well insulated hive seems to encourage bees to come up out of the honey frames. They really are not in the heat generating mode that requires the heater bees in cells doing their isometric heat generation with locked wing muscles. 

With copious air exchange the state of of high CO2 induced low metabolism probably does not occur. The bees dont seem dependent on staying in close contact with the stores. The tight cluster partially on top of cells of honey and shivering to generate heat control for core temperature does not seem to be the reality. Question is, are we doing them a favor or not?

It will be interesting to see how your double shell insulated hive colonies operate this winter. It sure would be nice to have them on a scale to monitor consumption and all the other parameters and compare with similarly monitored conventional setups. Etienne Tardif and Robert Holcombe were doing a lot along that line but I need the dumbed down version of Etienne's work for it to be digestible by me.

I would like to feel that I could set the bees up with a ball park humidity environment which they could fine tune to their most favorable.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

crofter said:


> I would like to feel that I could set the bees up with a ball park humidity environment which they could fine tune to their most favorable.


Crofter, I have used a experimental 3mil clear poly plastic sheet over the broodnest to observe whether the bees utilized the moisture collecting on the underside during the winter and spring months and if it appeared keep bees in the combs. I used it on 100 colonies last winter configured loosely (shown in the attached eary March picture) as in your previous post by leaving space along all sides, and covered by my standard 1/2" homasote insulation board with a 2"deep x 1" wide notch cut out of the front side for ventilation and upper entry.
The bees were clearly observed taking the condensation off of the underside of the poly sheet and no visible excess water collected in the hive or ran out on the bottom board. The bees stayed in the comb or on the top bars under the poly sheet and did not congregate on top of the poly sheet. This even with 2" feed rims on some of the top boxes. 
None of the winter loses in this group were due to starvation, excess water or any issue I could directly attribute to the use of the poly sheet. Overall winter loses approx. 5%.
The benefits I believe are in ease of obtaining water available as droplets as opposed to leaving the hive when conditions permit or obtaining it by removing absorbed moisture from the homasote board, keeping the bees in the combs, and offering what appeared to be more suitable hive environment judging by the behavior of the bees under the poly sheet compared to the 100 colonies wintered without the poly sheet and just the homasote board in my normal configuration. 
Although not observed this time around, the real benefit may come in the spring as water is easily available for brooding, patties stay moist and easily consumed and increased activity under the poly sheet may indicate more agreeable in-hive environmental conditions to start the new season. 
This experiment was done on wintered colonies of deep box over medium box with homasote board, mouse guard some with feed shims some without, some telescoping covers with inner covers, some migratory covers with and without innercovers. The hives without poly sheet were of the same mish mash of accessories. Both colonies with poly and without were located in the same yards. 
This a ONE year trial only and a small test to see first hand what our fellow German beekeepers see in using a hard plastic sheet over the brood nest during winter. 
I so think I've seen enough to invest in thicker poly sheets or similar for longevity as the 3mil poly was chosen for economy and proof of concept.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Clyderoad; Thanks, that is super! exactly the info I was looking for regarding the bees staying under the sheet.100 colonies is not a fluke observation!


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> GG; there would be moisture to harvest at the front of the box around the small entrance so I am beginning to think they might be using their bodies to limit upward air flow through the screen, single layer burlap and 4 or 5 inches of coarse shavings. Only in the corners of the shavings box will there be any perceptible moisture. I dont lift the quilt box in winter since there will be several pounds of bees clinging to the underside and hard to lower the box with bees all over upper and lower edges. One of the suppose virtues of vivaldi styles is that a portion of the quilt/shavings box can be lifted to expose the bees beneath and sugar or pollen patties added with a minimum of cold air allowed in or breaking propolis seals between boxes.
> 
> Some posters have mentioned being able to view the bees through a clear plastic sheet where this is incorporated. Space above the frames of a well insulated hive seems to encourage bees to come up out of the honey frames. They really are not in the heat generating mode that requires the heater bees in cells doing their isometric heat generation with locked wing muscles.
> 
> ...


i use a finer paint drop cloth, they protolyze it fairly heavy if I place it early enough.

I would suggest put it on sooner like now , to get time to propolize it, or try a denser weave. IMO they would be up there to either collect water or slow air flow and resultant heat and moisture loss and help to insure a lower CO2 environment.
I want to try plastic over frames, on some this year, seen the Vids Greg offers of the over seas folks and it seems odd to us but we may be odd to them.

Also thanks clyderoad for the feed back.

In spring one time I felt the bees were sucking the moisture out of the wood chips thru the cloth, so I had a moment where I was somewhat convince they survived "despite" what I had done. (during early spring check for stores)
Rather it be a boost.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> Would they be better off if held down between frames by the loose plastic etc. sheet laying down on top of the feed?


Start watching 12:50.
There are several variations for you if you roll forward and observe - all have been tested and work fine.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GregV said:


> Start watching 12:50.
> There are several variations for you if you roll forward and observe - all have been tested and work fine.


I notice he closes the film tight on sides and one end of frames and leaves one end open and is a bit selective with the insulation pillow to selectively control where the under neath condensation can occur.

Interesting. By comparison I have been creating much much drier conditions. Pause for thought for sure!


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## davemal (Mar 6, 2015)

I am in mid-MD. In winter I use an insulated inner cover (a sandwich of moisture-absorbing Homasote attached to 1" solid foam insulation). I place it on top of my winter feeding shim which I use to feed sugar should need be. The feeding shim has a wire bottom and is placed directly on top of the top-most hive body. 

One of the attached pics shows four of the Homasote boards with moisture staining pattern. As expected, the warm center has no moisture to absorb (thus no staining) from the uprising thermal column since at the center the bottom of the Homasote is the same as the temp of the uprising metabolic moisture. But as the thermal column spreads out and approaches the edges of the brood box, it encounters colder surfaces at which point the moisture condenses out and staining results. 

It is also along the edges where the subsequent downflowing thermal column encounters the outermost frames which are filled with capped honey. This capped honey is also cold, and this is the area I find often has condensation for the bees to drink. 

Another pic shows an example of a nuc making use of the insulated inner cover sandwich. (I use newspaper when feeding if using mountain camp method with loose sugar, but more often, I make up a mixture of sugar with vinegar added. Has the consistency of moist sand. For that method, I just set it on top of the screen bottom of the feeding shim without the use of newspaper. Works great.)

The third pic is of a 10 frame box when I was using a piece of black duck to hold warmth in and around the cluster area. I am not sure that is of much help here in mid-MD. Sometimes the bees climbed on top of the duck and became separated from the cluster. They survived, but it is not the best scenario, so I stopped using it as it was not helping with anything that I could tell.

The fourth photo shows the bees clinging to the bottom of the Homasote. This commonly occurs in large hives, but not always.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

What a great thread, thanks to all contributors. Hopefully more will chime in. I've seen these kinds of techniques in Europe but never really understood them (or why they didn't end up with soaked bees)....I'm beginning to understand now, despite the language barrier. Thanks.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

drummerboy said:


> never really understood them (or why they didn't end up with soaked bees).


One of the built-in Lang hive issues - that inner-cover thing (hardly used in East Euro - people don't know what that plywood piece is and why is it needed).

The Europeans use non-permeable soft cover (e.g. plastics) all over the place.
But understand that 1)cover is positioned immediately above the bees and 2)there is insulation above the cover.
The cluster keeps the cover warm (and thus prevents the condensation above itself; the condensation may or may not occur on the perimeter - depends).

Thus this "condensation" deal is typical to North American beeks, but nowhere else.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

After over 2 decades of keeping bees one cannot dispute that there's new stuff to learn all the time, in this case, not having to make, repair or replace inner covers any more. I'll be attempting this technique this week as I close up our colonies for the Winter. Many thanks to all contributors! This is exactly why we keep bees....the always changing and adapting and keeping us in the moment.


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## davemal (Mar 6, 2015)

While in his 1850s book Langstroth recognized the need for the bees to have moisture even in the winter, he did not understand the ongoing condensation. As a result, he recommended periodically adding water-soaked sponges to the colony during winter months.

Also, when using Homasote boards, it is best to keep the edges of the board exposed to the elements so that any moisture that is absorbed can more easily evaporate and not remain in the material where it might be the source of mold.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I meant to post this link earlier and now remembered.

A very worthwhile channel - especially for those who have interest in using plastic film during the winter.
Approximately USDA Zone 4-5. Eastern Ukraine.

As usually - non-English; just figure you way around (for most it should be sufficient to observe and see the technical details - these are all in front of you to see).
Here is only one of many videos - exactly on the subject of how important for the bees to have access to water in winter.
In this instance, the beek has to actually water his bees as the hives went too dry because of the excessive ventilation:


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Interesting. With a bit of fiddling around you can get the captions translated to english. Not perfect but certainly better than just seeing the vids. I am in the process of modifying my shavings box tops so they have a central inspection area that can be accessed without lifting the whole box. Will experiment wit different percentages of film cover of the frame tops to see where the bees prefer. 

In the video I believe there was reference to the unsuitability of Sunflower honey for wintering on. Some reference that Canola is similar and golden rod not perfect either.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> ........In the video I believe there was reference to the *unsuitability of Sunflower honey for wintering on.* Some reference that Canola is similar and golden rod not perfect either.


Yep. Exactly.
Those quick to crystallize honeys need water to be properly used up.
The beek in the video routinely winters on the Sunflower - else he must feed.... 

And the inherent problem was always that most everyone was chasing that notorious ventilation, ventilation, ventilation.
But the bees were screaming "we need water, water, more water!"
No one would listen.
Well, lately some people are becoming smarter than that.

Need both.


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## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

clyderoad said:


> I so think I've seen enough to invest in thicker poly sheets or similar for longevity as the 3mil poly was chosen for economy and proof of concept.


In my world 100 hives is a pretty good sample. 

I did something similar on a much smaller scale. I used a foil bubble wrap configured like this in a 3" feeder rim last year on my wooden hives (end to end like a quonset hut). Put sugar bricks on the frames (along with a few cheap bluetooth sensors), covered by a foil bubble wrap going to the outside like your poly except maybe a bit steeper angle due to having 3" to work with. Also left it wide enough to tuck it down between the last frame and outside a bit. I was figuring if it was super moist the water could run down the sides. I then put a 1" blueboard cut to fit the feeder rim on top of the bubble wrap, then inner cover, then outer cover/lid.

On the Lyson 6-frame nucs they have about 2.5-3" of headspace for a feeder (or propolis trap if feeder is missing). So I did the same thing on them minus the blueboard. We had almost no winter last year in the TN mountains so I guess I'm just telling this to be telling it. Didn't lose any hives but only had 14 going in, half 10-frame, half 6-frame.

One thing I can tell you is if you are measuring temps on top of the frames of a medium strength 10-frame (1 deep, 1 medium) you will see a large difference once the insulation goes on. I did one of these when outside temps were around 40-45F. Sensor was showing 75-80F directly above the cluster on top of the frames (sensor was in inner cover hole). Put on the rim and all accessories, then put a piece of tape where the feeder rim met the top box to seal drafts. Temp shot up to a 88-90F where it stayed fairly consistently until the cluster moved.

Again, we don't have winters like you guys so nothing I do is a fair comparison. Also I probably copped the whole idea from someone, or a composite of someones. Lankford P. told me how he built his feeder rims (he uses dry sugar, I used bricks), Ian S. does the bubble wrap thing on YouTube (though under flat migratory lids), and at some point I saw Kamon R. and his wife with the dome observation thing. This got me thinking of how to roll off excess moisture. Some kid on another forum mentioned sensors for $14 each.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

joebeewhisperer said:


> In my world 100 hives is a pretty good sample.
> 
> I did something similar on a much smaller scale.


Looking at the Craigslist right now.


> For sale: Rolls of 6mill and 4mill plastic. It is double layer thick. Most of the rolls 3.5 to 4.5 feet wide. If you cut the edge they open up to twice that width. Excellent for landscaping and vapor barrier. $25.00 a roll


One roll should last a lifetime.
Not that I am buying - I am getting my junk for free just by scavenging.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

That is a good price for sure. I have lined up some 6 or 8 mill and am going ahead with something similar to Clyderoad. The Homasote item is going to be Home Depot SonoPan but 3/4 thick. I plan to put a box in the middle about 10 inches square and 4 inches deepwhich is for observation or to put on top feed and allow a range of air exchange. That idea from JConnolly here. Cant find the particular thread where he describes it. Something similar to aspects of the vivaldi board. A mediium hive body with planer shavings is the main part of the insulation. Temperature probes have shown that the frame top area outside the cluster anywhere inside the tiny upper entrance is never below about 45 F. even when it is 30 below outside. So much for the common thought that bees dont add any heat to the hive outside of the cluster.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> So much for the common thought that bees dont add any heat to the hive outside of the cluster.


Of course any heat emitting body (e.g. a bee cluster) emits heat in three well documented ways.
Physics 101 or so about.

If this heat is captured then it will heat up the surrounding volume by a number of degrees.
(again - proportional to the amount of volume to be heated and to the amount heat emitted)

If this is not clear to some, a common kitchen instruction is to turn on a light bulb in the oven to keep it warm - a single bulb emits enough heat to keep the oven warm at a certain temperature.
A bee cluster is pretty compatible to a light bulb in the heat emission.

If the emitted heat is captured or not - that is up to the particular hive construction methods, the materials used, and the internal hive volume and configuration.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

When we went to all mediums in 2007 our deeps became Vent/Feed/ boxes. With this discussion several are gonna become insulation boxes placed above some poly as described in the vids and other contributors.

Many thanks for this presenting this topic....just in time too.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> Of course any heat emitting body (e.g. a bee cluster) emits heat in three well documented ways.
> Physics 101 or so about.
> 
> If this heat is captured then it will heat up the surrounding volume by a number of degrees.
> ...


I have read somewhere that calories, calculated from weight loss on a scale, converted to 4 to 8 watts of heat from a winter cluster.
If it matters.

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> That is a good price for sure. I have lined up some 6 or 8 mill and am going ahead with something similar to Clyderoad. The Homasote item is going to be Home Depot SonoPan but 3/4 thick. I plan to put a box in the middle about 10 inches square and 4 inches deepwhich is for observation or to put on top feed and allow a range of air exchange. That idea from JConnolly here. Cant find the particular thread where he describes it. Something similar to aspects of the vivaldi board. A mediium hive body with planer shavings is the main part of the insulation. Temperature probes have shown that the frame top area outside the cluster anywhere inside the tiny upper entrance is never below about 45 F. even when it is 30 below outside. So much for the common thought that bees dont add any heat to the hive outside of the cluster.


Frank,
are you going to "tent" the plastic to allow drip to run to the side if it is more than the bees need?

I will do 1/2 my hives with plastic this winter to do a "test" Just worried that the too much water setting can be an issue.

GG


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

I must admit to being somewhat horrified watching the beekeeper in the vid squeeze water from the sponges right on top of the cluster, but in observing his bees as he did his rounds they all seemed to be right below the sponges, obviously there to consume moister....Very Cool! Thanks for posting these videos!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Gray Goose said:


> Frank,
> are you going to "tent" the plastic to allow drip to run to the side if it is more than the bees need?
> 
> I will do 1/2 my hives with plastic this winter to do a "test" Just worried that the too much water setting can be an issue.
> ...


Not decided yet GG; I have a bunch of 1 1/2 rims that would allow for top feed and enough head room to tent up. I think I will cut the plastic to end it half inch short of the sides and ends. I can fold back material if I want more ventilation. I have enough screened bottom mediums previously used filled with shavings and which will be my insulation. Being able to fold the plastic film can control the amount of air flow to bypass the plastic film. I want something I can monitor / observe and be able to work around if I think it is going off the rails moisture wise. Previous set up was hard to observe or alter when the colonies were gang wrapped for the winter.

I am satisfied with the value of plenty of top insulation in our cold country beekeeping: moisture control is the variable I am toying with. I was proud of how warm and dry the bees stayed with the full exposure to a whole top box of planer shavings , but the amount of fly out into the snow may have been an indicator that I was actually _killing them with kindness_. 

I think your idea of doing half the hives for a trial is a good idea! Test the depth of the water with just one foot at a time


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> Not decided yet GG; I have a bunch of 1 1/2 rims that would allow for top feed and enough head room to tent up. I think I will cut the plastic to end it half inch short of the sides and ends. I can fold back material if I want more ventilation. I have enough screened bottom mediums previously used filled with shavings and which will be my insulation. Being able to fold the plastic film can control the amount of air flow to bypass the plastic film. I want something I can monitor / observe and be able to work around if I think it is going off the rails moisture wise. Previous set up was hard to observe or alter when the colonies were gang wrapped for the winter.
> 
> I am satisfied with the value of plenty of top insulation in our cold country beekeeping: moisture control is the variable I am toying with. I was proud of how warm and dry the bees stayed with the full exposure to a whole top box of planer shavings , but the amount of fly out into the snow may have been an indicator that I was actually _killing them with kindness_.
> 
> I think your idea of doing half the hives for a trial is a good idea! Test the depth of the water with just one foot at a time


last time I went whole hog on a "good idea" it bit me.
I was going to use an empty super (medium) then make pillows with an old T shirt sewed holes shut some with shavings and some with wool.
I can pop the lid pull the pillow and look, when ever I feel the urge.

the winter water idea is captivating, BUT... I have overwintered for years with out it so somehow they are getting this needed water, and I am concerned with dripping.

Is the fly out in the snow for water or because they are needing to poop and it "seems warm inside"
Hmm I will need to watch the flyout in the snow on plastic VRS the non Plastic. BTW my 4 inch walled coffin hive had zero fly out, less heat needed, less food consumed ,less buildup was my "assumption" it has no upper entrance, so it may just have the water they need as well. 

GG

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

This summer I had some mid and token upper entrances but have weaned them off of them. Lower only and will not have any upper till i wrap, probably Nov. then will make a very small upper one perhaps 5/16 by 1/2" I have some 10" square by 4" high "wells" that will be in the middle of the shavings box. Access to that will be taking off the telescopic cover. That section ventilation can be varied from zero to total. Pic. of access well. Present screen bottom will be cut out in that area. Sewed up old T Shirts should make good plug for that hole!


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Interesting discussion 

Would a piece of templast above the sugar blocks work. It could be folded to make a slight peak at the center and let water droplets "drain" to sides.

My bees spend a good part of the winter in my feed shim. Above feed shim is inner cover and then a quilt box. Inner cover has an upper rim of 3/8 plywood and a 3 1/2 inch round screened hole. In very cold weather, they retreat downwards.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

This beek last winter did an experiment with various methods of wintering (including totally uninsulated, no inner cover cases - at 11:00).
I use him for a good reference often.
There were five (5) different setups.
This is in Belarus somewhere (USDA Zone 4-5).

At 17:00 - his favorite setup at the winter's end as he concluded the run:


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

M Golden; I agree that they will spend a lot of time up in the feed shim. Just not sure that is all good. In a tree the stores would go right to the top. I am thinking to keep a soft cover on the frame tops till I put the insulated top box on in a month or so. Even the well or access section I am thinking to keep a piece of removeable film on the frames. I cant see it being all good to have the bees get above their stores. This is just intuitive thinking though to be sure. The bees will not be needing any welfare checks till they start brood up but I will easily be able to add sugar or pollen paddies and put the plastic back over the area in the inset box. Nothing set in stone yet; still time to meditate and change my mind. I am certainly open for any criticism or suggestions.


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## SeaCucumber (Jun 5, 2014)

I've only used impermeable covers and didn't see moisture problems. I think a top only entrance made OAV easier. I plugged the entrance with thin wax. This makes them decide the entrance size.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

In watching these vids one cannot help but notice all the 'empty' space within the boxes, which is counter to everything I've ever seen or read. Bees generally fill any void left within the hive. I'm trying to understand why his bees haven't filled the empty space. Is it just the poly draped over the sides or am I missing something here  ?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

drummerboy said:


> In watching these vids one cannot help but notice all the 'empty' space within the boxes, which is counter to everything I've ever seen or read. Bees generally fill any void left within the hive. I'm trying to understand why his bees haven't filled the empty space. Is it just the poly draped over the sides or am I missing something here  ?


Do realize that the empty space is for winter only.
These "ventilation pockets" are rather a practical standard in large hives.

About - "counter to everything I've ever seen or read".
This is why I feel like translating some material into English.
Huge knowledge-bases and mountains of experience are completely absent from the English-speaking domain.
This is a significant gap, considering that most of beekeeping is not even based in Engish-speaking countries.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

drummerboy said:


> Is it just the poly draped over the sides


Yes.
Like so:


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

drummerboy said:


> In watching these vids one cannot help but notice all the 'empty' space within the boxes, which is counter to everything I've ever seen or read. Bees generally fill any void left within the hive. I'm trying to understand why his bees haven't filled the empty space. Is it just the poly draped over the sides or am I missing something here  ?


I am new, very new so take my observations with that in mind. My bees do not fill the empty spaces in my hives, they fill only the spaces they deem as 'hive'. My long hives have been adapted to super and, because of the silly size I made them in the first place, and my reluctance to scrap them because I thoroughly enjoy working them, I needed to make a rim on top and within that box, set my med supers. I did not cover the inner super fully and the bees had access to the rest of the long hive top, about 1/2 the size of a super and they did not build anything within that area. They used it to hang out in but they did not build comb on any surface, they stuck to the frames in the med. 

I also use a canvas cloth draped part way down over the sides the frames, and unless I put a frame within the empty space that is beyond the canvas they leave it completely alone except to, again, hang out on the sides.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

He may take a couple frames of honey extract, then put the plastic on, and in spring add the wet frames back to the open space. He has decided that 7 frames centered works for his winter.
I have advised some to put a 5 over 5 or 6 over 6 into 2 10F boxes and make a dummy frame, he uses a dummy frame of air. IF you left them alone in spring they would build the space full.

GG


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Gray Goose said:


> He may take a couple frames of honey extract, then put the plastic on, and in spring add the wet frames back to the open space. He has decided that 7 frames centered works for his winter.
> I have advised some to put a 5 over 5 or 6 over 6 into 2 10F boxes and make a dummy frame, he uses a dummy frame of air. IF you left them alone in spring they would build the space full.
> 
> GG


Yeah, that makes perfect sense, thanks. Also; With nothing solid above besides plastic there's nothing to attach comb too. A follower board could also be used as a 'dummy' to restrict/limit the space, but really its the lack of solid support overhead (plastic) which must prevent bees from filling the empty space on the sides.....I think I'm catching on. I've sense found several other vids of this fellows..(summer and winter),,,.very informative despite language limitations.

This discussion/topic has become my latest favorite discovery in this ever evolving practice of keeping bees. Many Thanks to all!!


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

drummerboy said:


> Yeah, that makes perfect sense, thanks. Also; With nothing solid above besides plastic there's nothing to attach comb too. A follower board could also be used as a 'dummy' to restrict/limit the space, but really its the lack of solid support overhead (plastic) which must prevent bees from filling the empty space on the sides.....I think I'm catching on. I've sense found several other vids of this fellows..(summer and winter),,,.very informative despite language limitations.
> 
> This discussion/topic has become my latest favorite discovery in this ever evolving practice of keeping bees. Many Thanks to all!!


and it is snowing  comb and burr building slow right down.





__





beehive in snow - Google Search






www.google.com





GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> I have advised some to put a *5 over 5 *or 6 over 6 *into 2 10F boxes and make a dummy frame*,


Pretty much how I am setting up my "student" for this winter with his Lang equipment.
Later in the season we will loosely drape a plastic sheet over them and a polyester blanket.
Will be box-in-a-box setup with ventilation spaces on both sides.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Surely, you guys, found this video from the said channel.
Nothing but winter ventilation in several configurations.

The guy runs just about any imaginable hive system - you name it - he has it.

But the main idea all the same - draped impermiable layer (plastic or silicon or even foil); dummy boards; side ventilation spaces.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

@19.27 he presents an amazing wearre (sp) type barrel hive....very cool.....makes me want to visit this guy


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

drummerboy said:


> @19.27 he presents an amazing wearre (sp) type barrel hive....very cool.....makes me want to visit this guy


A vertical log hive.
Popular toy many beeks (and not really beeks) entertain lately.
Expensive too.

There is a theory running about that if the bees are left to their own devices they will actually survive better - we heard that before.  So people buy/build log hives all over the place.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Did anyone else notice the article about using poly with and w/out insulation above in the latest ABJ?


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I would love to see how this poly works when, as in my area, we get a warm spell of around +2C and then a massive drop in temp. to -30C like we did last spring. I am tempted to try it on one of my deep hives but I am as yet trying to figure out how to get them to live thru the winter so changing too many variables at once might not lead to any type of definitive answers. My current set up is to have a 2" feeding shim vented at the top and with a plexiglass insert so I can see if the bees need feed in the spring, covered with a polyester blanket and then a huge amount of insulation over that. I also have an upper entrance as per our local instructions.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

drummerboy said:


> Did anyone else notice the article about using poly with and w/out insulation above in the latest ABJ?


Well, do you have a copy to hang up here? Or a link?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> I am as yet trying to figure out how to get them to live thru the winter so changing too many variables


The #1 variable to resolve before anything - must have enough healthy winter bees.
All else is pretty darn easy.
You resolve the #1, you will have bees in spring.

Yes; the #1 largely depends the mite damage control - however you (or your bees) do it.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

GregV said:


> Yes; the #1 largely depends the mite damage control - however you (or your bees) do it.


I treated my bees this year in mid August, after trying TF last year and failing dismally, with Apivar. I just re-treated this week with an OA dribble to knock the rest back. I hope to do eventually only OA dribble, OA glycerine pads or other non miticides but this year I needed to make sure that I have lots of healthy winter bees in order to better asses my winter prep configuration. I am amazed at the number of bees I have this fall compared to last, I am attributing it, although it is not scientific, to the mite treatments done early. A few papers I have read, including Heather Mattila, found that the winter bees in the Canadian prairies are made mid august and treatments in my area need to be started by Aug. 15. 

So, I think I have a handle on the mites and I am tempted to put a poly cover on at least one of the hives but I also want to put sugar bricks in the shims before winter sets in as winter is very long here and many times the extremely cold springs do not let me open the hive to do it then. I am debating if a poly cover would hinder that process.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> many times the extremely cold springs do not let me open the hive to do it then. I am debating if a poly cover would hinder that process.


Then don't do the poly, if unsure.
It is not do or die thing.
Some people don't and still do fine.

Speaking of the "cold spring" - I posted many times over how people open the bees in the winter and don't lose sleep over it.
I have done the same - check the bees in winter as needed.
Adding dry sugar in winter is a no fuss project; you can always catch a warm-ish day and do it.

A matter of fact, I don't want to put dry sugar too early, this is rather a good project to do between the Thanksgiving and X-Mas here in the upper US. 
But then you know if it is worth bothering with it or not (since by then the worst colonies should drop off and you want them cleaned out anyway).


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have gone a bit further with the homasote inner cover / shavings box concept. The only readily available similar was a SonoPan sheet that is same material but 3/4 thick. First pic is looking down into the assembly without shavings that will surround the well. The well section approx 10 inches square will be accessible to view bees or add top feed / patties if needed in spring.

The notch in bottom of homasote is approx 3/8 by 2". Will close it down some till bees need it for cleansing flights. This is minimal upper venting and emergency exit to prevent possible suffocation if snowed in at the bottom of hive. The well section will probably have burlap or some type of stuffing that can be regulated to allow further air flow (or not?) up into the shavings box which will have the upper cover propped up a quarter inch to take off whatever moisture is allowed up through the well.

I picked up enough 12 mil clear vinyl roll film that will go over the frame tops below the homasote. Present plan is to have it several inches short of frame ends (to leave entrance notch open) and half an inch or so from the side walls. Have not decided how much exposure I should leave at the rear of the box. I think I should leave a hole maybe 10 inch diameter in the middle of the sheet which will be approximately under the well. If the bees want to venture out under the major part of the sheet for water, they can; If they want to cluster under the well they can. Open to suggestions as this is a work in progress. I want to be able to change the degree of coverage of the film and also the amount of warm moist air I allow to escape up the well into the shavings box.

Making things adjustable complicates construction but I like to feel I have the means to correct if it seems either too much humidity retained, or, as with the simple permeable bottom plain shavings box, perhaps too dry conditions imposed on the bees.

I will be more than happy if I find that I can go with the much simpler way Clyderoad describes earlier in post # 11


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

crofter, your efforts have paid off, the setup looks like it will function as designed.
Did you happen to save the cut out piece of sonopan? Thinking it could be used as a "trap door" cover to keep the insulation the sonopan provides equivalent though out the area.
Perhaps a 8" square cut out in the 12 mil vinyl right under the well, a "trap door" to slide some feed under or if moisture collection becomes a problem the vinyl 8" trap door can be removed to allow a larger area to vent under the sono and remove potential dripping in the center. Just thoughts, no proof behind any of the above.
All that said, I like the effort.

Is the 12 mil clear vinyl a "carpet runner"?

Looked at the pics quickly and saw the white corrugated metal in the corner by the fence and immediately thought holy crap! that's not snow there already! A closer look and I see there is none- yet haha.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

clyderoad said:


> crofter, your efforts have paid off, the setup looks like it will function as designed.
> Did you happen to save the cut out piece of sonopan? Thinking it could be used as a "trap door" cover to keep the insulation the sonopan provides equivalent though out the area.
> Perhaps a 8" square cut out in the 12 mil vinyl right under the well, a "trap door" to slide some feed under or if moisture collection becomes a problem the vinyl 8" trap door can be removed to allow a larger area to vent under the sono and remove potential dripping in the center. Just thoughts, no proof behind any of the above.
> All that said, I like the effort.
> ...


Yes, I saved the cutout. I will be able to look in on them with very little disturbance. Actual dripping would be worse case scenario. According the Etienne Tardif the bees will regulate to around 60% humidity and if the top is well insulated the cluster heat is enough to stay above the dew point. I have gang wrapped and covered in the past but that made it too difficult to get in an see what was going on. If we can see whether the bees move toward or away from the drier areas we may be able to draw some conclusions.
Having a "rain cap" for the center section would be a good way to tune the variables.

I think the vinyl may be table cloth protective covering.It is 48" wide. available 6, 8, and 12 mils.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

crofter said:


> to prevent possible suffocation if snowed in at the bottom of hive.


(IMO) The screened bottom board should have perforated metal sheet insert (tray). Metal will be cold surface for condensation and perforation holes will ensure small but reliable ventilation.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

GregV said:


> Well, do you have a copy to hang up here? Or a link?


Sorry, but I am an admitted "TechNOpeasant" (this computer is over 15 years old and I don't even own a cell phone) and w/out assistance from spouse am seriously lacking in the kind of expertise you're requesting, such as sending a 'link'. However, The article s/b available at their website and you're obviously much more able to find it than I am at directing imho.

That said, the article serves as an experiment using a few different methods, but basically using the poly, with and w/out insulation and NO top entrance. Since I personally don't believe in coincidence I still thought it interesting that the subject came up in the ABJ while this thread remains active.

I've since watched about a dozen (or more) vids from these folks and am definitely going to try some of the techniques derived.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

drummerboy said:


> Did anyone else notice the article about using poly with and w/out insulation above in the latest ABJ?


Is that the American Bee Journal, and is it the Oct. issue?


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

ursa_minor said:


> Is that the American Bee Journal, and is it the Oct. issue?


 Sorry I missed this response. Yes, the most recent issue (I've already passed it to the local Library so am not entirely certain whether its Oct or Nov). It also has a cool article on other uses for Queen excluders.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Got around to putting these inner covers on some colonies. The main thrust of this is to be able to adjust the amount of moisture that is allowed to escape, and also to control upper entrance and ventilation it allows. The access hole in the center of the fiber board allows viewing and ability to add top feed. Most of the bees side of the fiber board is covered by the vinyl film. There is a moveable strip at the hive front that can be pulled out to expose more of the fiber board or to close off entirely the upper entrance. Similarly the central access hole has a piece of vinyl blocking moisture exit but it can be removed. Note the tape handle on it.

This is much more complicated than I would consider practical for normal winter preparation; way to many bells and whistles, but it should point out what a much simpler, middle of the road control of moisture / ventilation could be. Clyderoad finds that the edges of the sheet wick away sufficient moisture. In the past I have used the exposed shavings quilt to carry away limitless amounts of moisture while still providing insulation value but there is considerable experience to the effect that it starves the bees for needed moisture. I have certainly experienced a large number of bees flying into the snow, though overall survival has been good. Access was not good and I want to see what is going on.












































Above the 3/4 thick fiber board there will be 2 to 4 inches foam board for insulation . That will not go in till much colder weather. Top entrance will also not be opened unless seen as necessary.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

crofter,
Must be getting a bit chilly up there eh?
I'm interested to hear updates as to how your setup is working and what alterations you need to do over the cold season.

As an aside: I found little moisture on the underside of the poly early in the winter and moisture droplets began collecting on the underside of poly beginning in mid to late February here, time of the coldest winter temps and I assume the greater need to consume stores for warmth in addition to being about the time brooding begins with more than the token silver dollar size brood area.( I know from earlier years when I'd examine early starve outs and see the brood areas.) I think the water droplets were also used in earnest at this time and dove tailing with the increase in colony activity of feeding and brooding.
Peeking in at this time fell in line with when I keep a close eye on weight and usually throw in a pound and a half or so of ultra bee patty, so I'm out and about.

A question: what is the configuration of the hive in the picture with the Vaseline jar on the top cover?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I agree with the likelihood of a change in moisture production as the winter wears on. Once they start brooding consumption and moisture production goes up. It would be nice to have an ongoing weight on the colonies. With a temperature probe you can sure pick out when they turn up the thermostat for brood rearing! 
I have had these colonies with a refectix soft inner cover and they did not seem drippy even when feeding recently. Nights have been getting around freezing but it usually is much colder by now. I like the idea of being able to easily up the moisture exchange on the fly. The central area approx. 10 x 10" could easily be turned into a chimney or sealed off tight without disturbing the bees much. That will probably be my main lever.

That hive is a mix of 11 1/4" depth dadant frames and some deep frames that the bees added on comb to the bottom. I am thinking of going to the single Dadant deep that does not need any lifting. Lifting deeps is just about history for me. Can still do it but it hurts in a number of different places.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

It is getting colder here, nights are finally freezing and the days are around 6C. I made a clear cover over the middle of my 2" feeding shims so I could look without letting out the heat. I went in the hives today to place some sugar in the shim before it gets too cold. Later might be better but it is not every winter we get a spell warm enough to check much before mid or late March.

Each hive was set up in a similar matter, 2" feeding shim with a clear cover over part and a screened vent hole in the wood that covers the rest of the shim. Over that a few pieces of blanket, then a down pillow, wrapped in plastic so it does not get moist, and 2" styrofoam, then the cover and 3" styrofoam over that. The whole hive is wrapped in 2" styrofoam.

I have an upper entrance placed near the top of the upper box of frames, and a lower entrance that is just open enough for a little air. I noticed that each of the 3 hives treated the space in the top feed area differently. One hive immediately made burr comb and almost closed of all of the spaces between the frames leaving only pass thru holes up into the feeder shim and they have left the upper feeding shim vent alone. One hive left everything as is and did nothing, and the third hive is propolising shut the vent hole in the upper top of the feeding shim but did not build any burr comb. 

Apparently bees are like their keepers, each has a different solution to a situation  I am thinking each has decided what is best depending on their population and feed stores.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Many thanks for the inspiration and the courage to try other methods, and then pass them on. The photos are excellent!


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> I have had these colonies with a refectix soft inner cover and they did not seem drippy even when feeding recently. Nights have been getting around freezing but it usually is much colder by now. I like the idea of being able to easily up the moisture exchange on the fly. The central area approx. 10 x 10" could easily be turned into a chimney or sealed off tight without disturbing the bees much. That will probably be my main lever.




I am looking forward to reading your experiences with the plastic right over the frames and how the moisture affects the bees.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> It is getting colder here, nights are finally freezing and the days are around 6C.


It is a mistake to heavily insulate this early.
Issue being you are setting up your bees to settle at the very top of the frames from the start - the warmest place.
You can always easily add the insulation later.
That pretty blanket is all that is needed at this time.

Meantime it is better to hopefully let them settle lower and closer to the entrance (by removing the pillow and XPS slab).


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

ursa_minor said:


> I am looking forward to reading your experiences with the plastic right over the frames and how the moisture affects the bees.


They were quite mobile under the soft inner covers I had on during the summer; ridges of wax etc. It may be some benefit to allow them to circulate over the top rather than around the long way during the winter. Anyways I did not scrape down the frame tops. I notice on some of the Russian video that Greg posted they actually place some narrow strips across frames, which hold the film up and allow passage. Probably would be a good idea if your frame tops were squeaky clean. In most previous winters I had the inch and a half space provided by the feed shim. Really dont know whether it is better to keep the bees down between the frames or allow them free socializing space above!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> Anyways I did not scrape down the frame tops. I notice on some of the Russian video that Greg posted they actually place some narrow strips across frames, which hold the film up and allow passage.


Yep.
In many Russian videos you will notice those wax ridges left alone on the frame tops - this is done for a good reason, to allow over the frame passage under the soft covers (otherwise you need to provide those sticks across the frames).
Those who religiously scrape off their frame tops and keep them "squeaky clean" should reconsider - excessive "tidiness" is not needed and, in fact, is not helping the bees in any way (it is otherwise actually).


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## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

clyderoad said:


> The bees were clearly observed taking the condensation off of the underside of the poly sheet and no visible excess water collected in the hive or ran out on the bottom board.


That is super interesting. The kind of info I'm looking for.



GregV said:


> In many Russian videos you will notice those wax ridges left alone on the frame tops - this is done for a good reason, to allow over the frame passage under the soft covers (otherwise you need to provide those sticks across the frames).


WOW Greg! You watch a lot of Russian beekeeping video! Are you fluent in Russian, or do you just use English subtitles, like me? I'm saving all of these to my "watch later" list. Thanks for sharing these.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sean Govan said:


> Are you fluent in Russian,


Fluent.
Subs are usable of course, but takes more work digesting.
But just the observation is invaluable if you observant enough since the entire context is in front of you.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

GregV said:


> Meantime it is better to hopefully let them settle lower and closer to the entrance (by removing the pillow and XPS slab).


Just got in from hauling bales and noticed your advice. Well, I have been wondering when the bees would move off of the top of the bars and down into the bottom of the combs, and this is probably the reason why. I ran out and removed the slab and the pillow, but it is getting to -8C tonight and those are not blankets just pieces of left over fleece that I made the grandkids housecoats out of. Do you think that will be enough for -8C or should I add another layer.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> Do you think that will be enough for -8C or should I add another layer.


Enough.
The days still being warm they will reposition however they feel like.
Then when they days will be consistently below 0C the bees will get stuck at some stable position (hopefully low enough) - at that time you may want to return the pillow and the slab.

As you know if they get stuck on the very top - there is no way they will go down again and will run out of food.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

sigh***** so much to learn , I wonder if I close the bottom entrance and leave only to top open if they might like it a little better below.

ETA I looked at the long term forecast and at least I have some time for them to move, so no panic that we will get into some terribly cold days and have them trapped too far up. Two nights of around -8C days of +7C and then 14 more days of temps. where the nights do not go below zero and the days hover around +10C. This fall is extremely warm.


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## jtgoral (Mar 24, 2018)

GregV said:


> Yes.
> Like so:
> 
> View attachment 65556


See how Gopka does the Blinov Method:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> sigh***** so much to learn , I wonder if I close the bottom entrance and leave only to top open if they might like it a little better below.
> 
> ETA I looked at the long term forecast and at least I have some time for them to move, so no panic that we will get into some terribly cold days and have them trapped too far up. Two nights of around -8C days of +7C and then 14 more days of temps. where the nights do not go below zero and the days hover around +10C. This fall is extremely warm.


No - open the bottom and close the top (for now).
You want to pull the bees down and have them settled there (see picture).
Especially since your "fall is extremely warm", they have plenty of chances to settle close to the bottom entrance before they get stuck right there (which is exactly where you want them to get stuck in early winter - right below the honey).


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

GregV said:


> No - open the bottom and close the top (for now).
> You want to pull the bees down and have them settled there (see picture).
> Especially since your "fall is extremely warm", they have plenty of chances to settle close to the bottom entrance before they get stuck right there (which is exactly where you want them to get stuck in early winter - right below the honey).


Agree; I have provision for up to 2" X 3/8" in upper box but it is _totally blocked off for now_. Dont want to commit to zero upper entrance on a permanent basis because of a suffocation event when hive bottoms blocked by saturated snow and ice when upper hives totally sealed.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Where would I be without bee source and the information provided here, Thank you. 

In my readings I noticed that when wintering indoors the temperature where bees consume the least amount of honey is 5C too 10C. And here I was thinking that tucking them up early I was helping them stay cozy. It must be the 'grandmother' instinct of trying to keep those in my care all cuddly and warm. Sheesh, I need to see bees as bees, just like I see cows as cows, and give them what they need not what I need to feel good about myself.

I did not pay enough attention to 'when' to wrap hives and tuck them in except to note that the information suggests by our Thanksgiving, which is around Oct. 10. I have thus removed most of the top insulation, moved my shrew/mouse screens to the bottom entrance and removed the 2.5 styrofoam on the sunny side of the hive, which is the front by the entrance, so the sun can warm the hive during daytime. They are now exploring the warm side, a few are flying and future temps. are not even forecast to be much below -1C during the night for two weeks.

Every year I get closer to at least some semblance of knowing what I am doing, baby steps.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> And here I was thinking that tucking them up early I was helping them stay cozy.


A common issue.
A lot of people kill their bees this way. 
The same talks of insulation and wrapping are all around me as well (mind you we still have +20C outside at daytime).
I anything I will do - indeed go around and remove extra top insulation everywhere (insulation was actually needed for the late brood raising - but no more of that).

People also already put up dry feed (what is the stupid rush?) - the same issue they create, pulling up the bee too high too early.

Of course, I just as well kill the bees using my own preferred method.
But fingers crossed - this year will be different.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

GregV said:


> I anything I will do - indeed go around and remove extra top insulation everywhere (insulation was actually needed for the late brood raising - but no more of that).


Well maybe my insulation helped that a little. I had a really good queen that was from a late supercedure she was laying late so maybe the insulation bought me some time for a few more winter bees for the hive.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

ursa_minor said:


> Well maybe my insulation helped that a little. I had a really good queen that was from a late supercedure she was laying late so maybe the insulation bought me some time for a few more winter bees for the hive.


Yes.
You want more those winter bees to a point, especially in those weak colonies.
But need to stop that business about now as the time ran out.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Some more pictures of the process of the experiment with moisture control with and without top ventilation. Being able to view what the bees are doing (usually when no one is watching) hopefully will give me a handle on how they manage to have sufficient water available as they need it without dripping on them with bad results. We have been kicking around whether or not they are forced to make water flights if the hive is so dry and ventilated that they are forced to fly out despite the physics and math that says they should have more than enough available from metabolizing the stored honey.
My premise is that how we arrange hive ventilation, its degree of permeablilty to moisture,entrances etc. can make it easy for the bees to self regulate or we can mess with things enough to put it beyond their regulating ability and they perish.

I dont know how many pictures I can get in a post. Starting out is the sheet of clear vinyl on top of the frames to be able to simulate no ventilation or top entrance. This is in sectiions so I can vary from almost completley shut off with a separate strip across the front which can block the entrance in the homasote panel or which can be pulled out to expose entrance and the wicking of the particle board. The window hole has an inner flap which can be left in place or pulled out for feeding. It can be viewed without removing insulation of the main top cover. Should be accessible even below zero in an emergency.

Edit; for some reason I suddenly cannot post even one picture. Nope, tried the drag and drop and says my file designation not allowed. Even pictures previously posted cant be recognized. Edit again! Seems like there was a bug introduced but Admin addressed it. Below shows some condensation on the film when exposed to the cool outside air. Not happening when insulation is in place.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I don't know if you use the attach photo link below but I just drag and drop my photos.


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## rdimanin (Jan 17, 2020)

ursa_minor said:


> I had put a 2 inch thick square of styrofoam insulation directly on top of my candy boards last winter and the moisture was so high the candy was wet thru, there was mold on all my frames , and, although I am not sure it was the water that killed the bees, they were soaked. A small controlled area might be good, but how to make it so it is not directly over where the bees choose to cluster is my worry.
> 
> Maybe an upper entrance combined with a cover over the feeding rim might allow some moisture to escape and some to remain. Or would a larger area of uninsulated space around the entrance allow the condensation to be on a wall instead of overhead. Ignore all my musings if they seem silly, I am just looking for a way to keep my bees alive this winter.
> 
> This year I am more confused than last.


Did you also insulate the sides with R7 to R10? When I use my wooden hives for overwintering, I heavily insulate top and sides without top entrance. Moisture condenses on the lower sides if the super,doesn't hurt the bees.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

rdimanin said:


> Did you also insulate the sides with R7 to R10? When I use my wooden hives for overwintering, I heavily insulate top and sides without top entrance. Moisture condenses on the lower sides if the super,doesn't hurt the bees.


I did, but it was my first winter with bees and when I look back at my notes the top was not as heavily insulated as the sides. I am tempted to do a bottom entrance only, but hesitant.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

I ran with "close" to only a bottom entrance and a quilt box. Bottom entrances was actually two side entrances, each was 1/2 inch wide by 3/8 high. Had 2 inches of pink styrofoam around the hive walls. Hive was alive in the spring.

To be safe from them getting blocked(dead bees or ice) I added a 1/2 inch round hole just below the hand hold in bottom box. My hives are under a small roof so snow and ice from overhead was not a concern, however could lean a piece of plywood against the hive.

I have since changed to a 1/2 round hole in a feed shim and closed off the hole on the front side of the bottom deep. I got concerned that bees may not recognize days they could go on a cleansing flight. However, if the bees consume less honey and sugar as a result of less heat loss, maybe they can last six months without a cleansing flight.

.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

ursa_minor said:


> I did, but it was my first winter with bees and when I look back at my notes the top was not as heavily insulated as the sides. I am tempted to do a bottom entrance only, but hesitant.


It is probably important that the top is higher R value than the sides so you effectively control where the condensation occurs; you sure dont want it on top surface. I am using 2" foam because I have it, on sides and back and only a partial panel on the front. My thought is to leave a condensation area where the bees can access it.

Any wrapping you do on the front make sure the edges of it around any entrance is tightly pressed against the hive body or you can lose a lot of bees that get lost out under the wraps.

4th pic shows the upper entrance that is blocked until I pull the tab of vinyl out. The upper hive bodies above the 3/4 homasote are partially filled with shavings and topped full with foamboard. plus another 2" in the telescopic top. The exposed edge of the homasote will be relatively cold.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> am using 2" foam because I have it, on sides and back and only a partial panel on the front. My thought is to leave a condensation area where the bees can access it.


I love your set up. Since we are talking about the need for water, and the possible problem of not having enough for bees in our quest to ventilate properly, I found it interesting, that after almost a week of cold cloudy weather that has kept my bees confined inside the hive, they came out for two days straight ( because the weather was +9C) and headed for the chicken waterer I had set out. They were up at the house in the dog water bowl, buzzing around the cattle trough and in every other water source on the farm.

I have done something similar to you in trying to provide a condensation area that the bees can access and I left a 4X6" square around the entrance uninsulated. I screened it off with 1/4" screen to keep out the pygmy shrews ( yes they were in 2 of my hives last winter and left piles of dead bee bodies all over the place). I covered the 2" foam edge at the entrance with black duct tape, in the silly theory that on a warm winter day there might be moisture droplets right at the door and the bees might use that as well.


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## William Bagwell (Sep 4, 2019)

crofter said:


> Any wrapping you do on the front make sure the edges of it around any entrance is tightly pressed against the hive body or you can lose a lot of bees that get lost out under the wraps.


So the corset laces in the back  What is the tan colored material? House wrap would be my first guess followed by 'something you drug home from somewhere'. I do the same...


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

It is house wrap. Cant think of the trade name. Got the idea from Scott Hendricks youtube site. Have been using the 4" wide stretch cling wrapping film to locate the foam board. The lace idea is a bit fiddly. Hendricks uses tie wraps. I think I am going to just wrap the rest of my wrapping sleeves with the cling wrap rather than lace it.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Let it rain or let it snow! Pretty much wrapped up with the rain caps to reduce the amount of water getting between the foam and the wood. There are a few nail holes in the old roofing that will each get a dab of caulking. Those plastic hive bodies with embedded XPS foam are becoming more appealing with each winter I wrap.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

crofter said:


> Let it rain or let it snow! Pretty much wrapped up with the rain caps to reduce the amount of water getting between the foam and the wood. There are a few nail holes in the old roofing that will each get a dab of caulking. Those plastic hive bodies with embedded XPS foam are becoming more appealing with each winter I wrap.


Looking good, but lots of work. 
Keep track of this guy - no wrap in; not wrap out:


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTMgeJ4j_f3rK_MzJo4g4uw/videos


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## Wil-7 (Sep 4, 2021)

Being a new beekeeper and this my first winter with my bees, I worry I did wrong. Natural, I know but...
Yesterday, here in Northeast ,Ohio, it was 65 degrees and going to be about that today on the 10th. The wife and I have two deeps and we placed my candy board on top . The candy board is screened on the bottom with 1/2 inch hardware cloth. Its a full block of sugar with a winter pattie in the middle. I have no newspaper between the top of the frames and the sugar. On top of the candy board, I put a quilt box, actually called a hot box winter box from kelly Bees. Was it to soon to put that sugar board on? With these heated days, would the sugar melt and make a mess or kill my bees? My candy board has an entrance/escape hole and so does my quilt box.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

imho; It'll likely depend on the type of candy being used. Most commercial brands are probably all right, but sometimes 'homemade' stuff can behave like you described, melting when it heats up (ask me how I know).

Otherwise it appears your bees are ready for a Ohio winter, if all else has been accomplished. Enough honey left, mites handled, wind blocks, entrances reduced....etc


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## Wil-7 (Sep 4, 2021)

drummerboy said:


> imho; It'll likely depend on the type of candy being used. Most commercial brands are probably all right, but sometimes 'homemade' stuff can behave like you described, melting when it heats up (ask me how I know).
> 
> Otherwise it appears your bees are ready for a Ohio winter, if all else has been accomplished. Enough honey left, mites handled, wind blocks, entrances reduced....etc


Thanks you for the reply back. Hopefully I am ready for our Ohio winter. The wife and I are going to check the sugar board out again to see the outcome of the sugar block since being on all day yesterday and last night. We made the sugar block ourselves using the recipe of 16 pounds of sugar and 3 cups of water, plus 1 tablespoon of white vinegar and a dash of Honeybee Healthy.
Still a little worried about my lower entrance. I have my entrance reducer upside down with the 3-1/2 inch opening for the bees to come and go instead of the smaller 3/4" hole. I also put a mesh of 1/2" hardware cloth over the hole so mice would not enter. With entrance upside down, I am hoping that the dead bees won't block the entrance. Should I have used the smaller hole in the entrance?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

in a hive before the sugar would melt the combs would melt.
never seen sugar blocks melt.

if using the term sugar block to describe a fondant or something else then , "it depends"

GG


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## Wil-7 (Sep 4, 2021)

Gray Goose said:


> in a hive before the sugar would melt the combs would melt.
> never seen sugar blocks melt.
> 
> if using the term sugar block to describe a fondant or something else then , "it depends"
> ...


Thank you also for the reply back. This is exactly the type of candy board I made and pretty much the same recipe for the sugar block that fills it.
How to Prepare Your Bees for Winter - Candy boards and Preparing your Hive - YouTube


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Wil-7 said:


> Thank you also for the reply back. This is exactly the type of candy board I made and pretty much the same recipe for the sugar block that fills it.
> How to Prepare Your Bees for Winter - Candy boards and Preparing your Hive - YouTube


watched the vid
stay with my original comment, sugar would need a lot of heat to melt.
I would not worry that the candy board made the way of the Video will melt and run down on the bees.

GG


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## Wil-7 (Sep 4, 2021)

Gray Goose said:


> watched the vid
> stay with my original comment, sugar would need a lot of heat to melt.
> I would not worry that the candy board made the way of the Video will melt and run down on the bees.
> 
> GG


Thank you for taking the time to watch the video that I linked. Your comment gave me confidence in that I made the sugar board and sugar block correctly.


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## drummerboy (Dec 11, 2015)

Wil-7 said:


> Thanks you for the reply back. Hopefully I am ready for our Ohio winter. The wife and I are going to check the sugar board out again to see the outcome of the sugar block since being on all day yesterday and last night. We made the sugar block ourselves using the recipe of 16 pounds of sugar and 3 cups of water, plus 1 tablespoon of white vinegar and a dash of Honeybee Healthy.
> Still a little worried about my lower entrance. I have my entrance reducer upside down with the 3-1/2 inch opening for the bees to come and go instead of the smaller 3/4" hole. I also put a mesh of 1/2" hardware cloth over the hole so mice would not enter. With entrance upside down, I am hoping that the dead bees won't block the entrance. Should I have used the smaller hole in the entrance?


We're in Northern Wisconsin. We usually just leave the 'middle' (1/2" x 2") open year round, above a slatted rack and always protected with mouse guards. We almost never change it. Some years the bees block one or two of the mouse guard holes but usually that size opening is sufficient year round, and we see no reason to divert. It works for our bees.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Wil-7 said:


> Thank you for taking the time to watch the video that I linked. Your comment gave me confidence in that I made the sugar board and sugar block correctly.


Table sugar/Melting point
366.8°F
186°C

Beeswax melts at *approximately 145° F

the water and TBS of vinegar would not significantly alter this melting temp.

GG*


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Gray Goose said:


> Table sugar/Melting point
> 366.8°F
> 186°C
> 
> ...


Probably what is being referred to is slumping from excess moisture rather than actual temperature liquidation of solid sugar. If conditions are correct (certainly not desirable) condensation from cold hive tops can drip on frame top sugar and cause it to ooze down into the cluster. It actually takes very little added water to change dry sugar into a slurry.

I dont agree with the statement that sugar is effective in holding any meaningful amount of water. Could be wrong but I rank it right up there with other often repeated but incorrect _truisms_. I think sufficient insulation to maintain upper hive air temperature so that relative humidity is below the saturation point to be a better way of preventing your sugar from "melting".


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> Probably what is being referred to is slumping from excess moisture rather than actual temperature liquidation of solid sugar. If conditions are correct (certainly not desirable) condensation from cold hive tops can drip on frame top sugar and cause it to ooze down into the cluster. It actually takes very little added water to change dry sugar into a slurry.
> 
> I dont agree with the statement that sugar is effective in holding any meaningful amount of water. Could be wrong but I rank it right up there with other often repeated but incorrect _truisms_. I think sufficient insulation to maintain upper hive air temperature so that relative humidity is below the saturation point to be a better way of preventing your sugar from "melting".


Agree Frank
I "tried" to answer the question asked (would the sugar melt ) not the one inferred 
re reading there is also a patty in the candy board, so yes depending on moisture accumulation there can be a slury created that runs.
the question, Can the candy board with a pollen patty get soft from moisture and run down onto the bees?
would have the answer sure if the moisture is great enough. here still there is no melting, only getting watered down.

it holds water until it is saturated then it don't

to the OP the Utube guy was in Ohio, if your climate and configuration is similar, you should have similar results.
so the hole in front and the hole thru the sugar in both back corners would be needed to "emulate" his results.

BTW I use a brick made in a bread pan so lots of air around it , AND I have lots of over head insulation, hopefully means less condensation.
If the hive was light stores and likely would die in winter, no reason not to try it. If it has plenty stores then one must realize that you are adding risk, when there is little gain.

IMO Ohio is likely not cold enough to trigger a lot of condensation, so he can make it work. 

GG


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> It is probably important that the top is higher R value than the sides so you effectively control where the condensation occurs; you sure dont want it on top surface. I am using 2" foam because I have it, on sides and back and only a partial panel on the front. My thought is to leave a condensation area where the bees can access it.


As an update to the conversation about condensation being available to the bees, it was -4C today, bright and sunny with a little bit of a melt . I checked my hive entrances every morning this last week when it was -30C and I found that the ice was building up on one of my 1/4" shrew screens and over part of the upper entrance ( these screens are stapled to a 1" deep wooden frame so they are not right up against the hive). I chipped it off today and, because I misplaced the board that shields the entrance from wind, I noticed that the small ice sheet fell right next to the entrance and was melting in the sun. The bees were actually behind it in a small hollowed out space and were working the melting ice. They had to only travel about 1" from the opening till they were behind the ice, I wonder how warm it was behind there as the bees had no trouble in -4C in getting back to the entrance. 

Bees never cease to amaze me.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

We have had it down to -17C. I have a bit of drip from my roof overhangs that is icing up a bit on the landing boards but I dont think any is dripping or accumulating at the front wall of the hives. Still seeing a few bees nozing around behind the mousegards. Have not seen any bees in the snow for a week or so. Maybe most of the summer foragers have gone walkabout. I have not had a peak in for a while but can do so without much trouble. I think I wont put any top feed on them till considerably later. Right now they have no upper entrance at all. I did check in with a temperature probe a few weeks ago and they were cozy; makes me second guess whether I have made it too cozy!


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

I hear you crofter, I have such thick wooden walls, then the styrofoam, and the quilts above I am wondering how warm they are and if they are too active. Too hot, too cold, too dry too wet, if it isn't one condition to be concerned about it is another.

No bees in the snow for me either, last time it was at -4C I was having some dead out in the snow, but not today. I am glad to hear that you too have bees nosing around near the entrance that gives me a little reassurance that this type of activity is normal. Last year there was nada, but I did not pay as close attention.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think we are in line with Etienne Tardifs recommendation and what he is doing with his own colonies. He is not so much colder than your area. You seem to send your weather my way when you get tired of it so I get a taste of it too!


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

ursa_minor said:


> I hear you crofter, I have such thick wooden walls, then the styrofoam, and the quilts above I am wondering how warm they are and if they are too active. Too hot, too cold, too dry too wet, if it isn't one condition to be concerned about it is another.
> 
> No bees in the snow for me either, last time it was at -4C I was having some dead out in the snow, but not today. I am glad to hear that you too have bees nosing around near the entrance that gives me a little reassurance that this type of activity is normal. Last year there was nada, but I did not pay as close attention.


URSA
IMO they will not get "too hot"
the bees generate 6-12 watts of heat as a hive.
even double wrapped the heat will come out it is just how long it takes and the temp fluctuations are way slower giving bees more time to react.
the bees know it is winter and will not "over activate"

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Gray Goose said:


> URSA
> IMO they will not get "too hot"
> the bees generate 6-12 watts of heat as a hive.
> even double wrapped the heat will come out it is just how long it takes and the temp fluctuations are way slower giving bees more time to react.
> ...


I had a peek through the plastic into one colony yesterday. There are a few wandering around on frame tops but the majority are down between frames and very quiet. There is a bit of fog and micro droplets on the plastic film. There is the odd yellow mark in the snow and about 3 or 4 bees in the snow in front. I do see a few bees here and there up to 50 yards from the colonies. I dont think they got that far then got disoriented and landed in the snow.  Way too early and not been cold enough to pass any judgement on plastic fillm over frame tops except for an area perhaps an inch wide on the 4 hive walls. Top entrance totally closed off and at least R20 on top. Sides and rear 1 1/2 foam board and front wall insulation only 1". The thought behind that is to have the coolest spot being at the ends of the top bars at front of hive. They are all leaned slightly to the front. 

Will update as the winter winds on. Heck it has not even started and the days soon start getting longer. Yippee


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

crofter said:


> Will update as the winter winds on. Heck it has not even started and the days soon start getting longer. Yippee


Yup, one of the ways I mentally handle our long cold winters is to not view Dec. 21 as the first day of winter ( for us it begins way back in Oct.) I look at it as the last short day of the year and a couple of weeks after that date I can see the morning sun rising earlier and earlier. 

I enjoy your updates, being able to actually view the bees when weather gets warm enough must be gratifying. I have a stethoscope and I do periodically find the cluster and it is still near the bottom. When it starts to move up to the top where I have my feeding rim I will assume they might need feed and go in and look. Last year I had two small hives I was trying to winter and by Jan. they were already in the feeding shim. That said I think my lack of good effective mite control was their demise, although I did have evidence early on of a shrew in one. I believe the shrew just prevented their slow decline as well.


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