# A Question of Ethics



## honeydreams (Aug 10, 2009)

the supplier is correct. Sorry that you bumm bees. But as a Beek I look at if my queen is doing poor I pinch her and get a new one from a ver reputble breeder. If you have weak hives I would combine them to make strong hives. Now you said you use top bar hives? I do not know how to combine top bar hives. I am old school and only use Langstroth hives for the ease of things like this. I wish you all the best luck and yes their are no guarantees. chin up and if it was not so late in the year I would buy queens from koehen and sons. I buy my queens from them every year.


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Yep. They sure are bum bees. And new queens are on the way.

Thanks for your input.

P.S. I'm going to all Langs next season. Have all the equipment on order already!


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## Ethfol (Jun 25, 2010)

Way to go for not outright accusing him and laying all the blame on him. It's not very often you see someone who waits to lay accusations until he get's all the fact's. Very refreshing to see, thank you!


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## givesgoodemail (Apr 4, 2010)

(This is all coming from a new beekeeper, so take it for it's worth.)

Top bar hives as I understand are not for the beginner, and the fact that you had a bad run of luck is not the supplier's fault. Some queens don't make it. Some ornery queens raise ornery workers. 

Now, if the supplier wants to preserve good will he/she might consider replacement (for free or for a discount), but there really isn't a moral obligation to do so.

Chalk it up to bad luck, study up and talk to your local beekeepers, and try again.


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## honeydreams (Aug 10, 2009)

Well stone I really wish you all the luck in the world. I know how fun Beekeeping is and it frustrating to see a person have a bad time with it. Again look in to who I buy my Queens from they are egg laying machines. and the workers are great. Now that said I hope you don't get bum bees from them too.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

I think I would cast your dilemma slightly differently: A question of responsibility. There was a thread in the commercial forum a few days back much like yours but from the nuc provider's POV. How much responsibility should a provider have to see that you are successful? It is very hard to say. Some providers won't sell you bees unless you can show them that you know what you are doing.

I remember my first hive where my queen went missing after about 4 weeks - my nuc provider understood that I was a beginner and was great and helped me out. Of course he was very aware that he was getting a good long term customer out of the deal...

I think your best bet is to start fresh next year with a new provider, one recommended by your new friend. And to seek out as much knowledge as you can before next spring to help you be more successful.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Did you check out the Thread titled "On Selling Nucs"? This has already been hashed over.

But, at the risk of angering someone, I will ask a question. What are the responsibilities of the purchaser to know something about what they are doing before purchasing their first hive of bees? What did you know, Stone, before you took on the care of the bees you now blame someone else for not behaving as you think they aught to?

I have asked this of others, I will ask you now, would you buy a car and then learn how to drive? Would you buy a horse and then figure out which end the feed goes in or how to ride it?

Bees are wild undomesticated animals. Just like the Orcas that so many people are amazed about when they kill someone. Shoot, even domesticated animals like cattle will pin you down and break your bones if you don't know how to be around them.

Next, you have started down a path of continuing education. A path that doesn't end just because you have owned bees for X number of years. And education is expensive. No matter where or when you get your bee degree, be it the college or from a mentor or from the school of hard knocks, you will get an education and you will pay for it dearly. Some do this willingly and w/ understanding and others do it unwillingly and cast blame on others. Either way education happens, whether one learns anything or not.

So, to answer your initial question, unless the seller of the bees did something malicious and underhanded, like selling you AHBs or diseased bees and equipment, then the seller did what she/he was supposed to do and is not obligated, except by good will to do anything more for you other than perhaps answer questions and give advice, respectfully.

You, as the buyer have every right to ask for advice and the answers to questions about the bees and how best to handle them, respectfully, of course.

Have any of your "very experienced, local beekeepers" volunteered to be mentors to you? Volunteered to work your bees w/ you and you work theirs w/ them? If they don't think that you got what you should, have they volunteered to be of aid to you in this situation and give you one of their queens? Or sell you nucs?

Talk is cheap. And not knowing them, I can't judge their bonifides. How many more years than you have they been beekeepers?

Best of luck, learning.


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Andrew Dewey said:


> I think I would cast your dilemma slightly differently: A question of responsibility. There was a thread in the commercial forum a few days back much like yours but from the nuc provider's POV. How much responsibility should a provider have to see that you are successful? It is very hard to say. Some providers won't sell you bees unless you can show them that you know what you are doing.
> 
> I remember my first hive where my queen went missing after about 4 weeks - my nuc provider understood that I was a beginner and was great and helped me out. Of course he was very aware that he was getting a good long term customer out of the deal...
> 
> I think your best bet is to start fresh next year with a new provider, one recommended by your new friend. And to seek out as much knowledge as you can before next spring to help you be more successful.


_How much responsibility should a provider have to see that you are successful? It is very hard to say._

A good point. And that's why I titled this thread "A Question of Ethics" - because it is a question I would like to give some thought to.

_I remember my first hive where my queen went missing after about 4 weeks - my nuc provider understood that I was a beginner and was great and helped me out. Of course he was very aware that he was getting a good long term customer out of the deal...
_

This is an important point, as well. In my view, this was very poor business sense.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

Stone you said you bought 6 nucs, but had them in TBH. 

I am assuming the nucs were either deep or medium langs?!?!

Can you explain how you made the transfer?


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

sqkcrk,

The purpose of my post was not to "hash things over". I think this was a poor choice of words. My purpose was to try to see things better and to get other's points of view.

If it wasn't clear from my post, I'll make it clear now: I was unsure that my point of view was correct and I wanted other people's opinions. I wanted to KNOW more so I could understand. A teacher of mine told me many years ago, "The desire to know will get you out of all kinds of scrapes." I didn't 't want to make false assumptions. I want to respect myself for how I think of others.

As a teacher of science for nearly thirty years, I can appreciate what you say about education. That's what life is about, isn't it? We learn every day.

You say, _"unless the seller of the bees did something malicious and underhanded, like selling you AHBs or diseased bees and equipment, then the seller did what she/he was supposed to do and is not obligated, except by good will to do anything more for you other than perhaps answer questions and give advice, respectfully."_ 

That's very true. And that's what I'm just not so sure about. The drive to profit from others - at times because of their ignorance and at their expense - is very strong. We all know about that, don't we? It's a dark part of human nature. And good will is a beautiful idea. It's also part of human nature - bigger and better and more beautiful than the other desire. I'll give you a beautiful definition of good will I read some thirty years ago: 

"Good will is the desire to have something else stronger and more beautiful, for this desire makes oneself stronger and more beautiful". This was written by the late American poet and educator, Eli Siegel.

And thank you for your concern. Yes, I've had many kind offers to help and many people have come to my assistance with their knowledge and experience.

Yes, I agree, _"talk is cheap"_. But not matter if one agrees or disagrees, one can always learn from the opinions of others. And that is why I thank you.


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

We all lose hives, especially when you are just starting. I lifted the lid, and lost one today. And I have been keeping them for 15 years. You will have to lump it and move on. Best advice I can give : Go to Langs and start with a single. Try to get some drawn comb thrown in the deal. You stand a much better chance of success. Start with production Italians and build up fast. You can always requeen later. Also, could you PM me with the name of the supplier? I know a few guys in your area and am curious who it was. Are your bees near forage? Within a mile or two? Your pronunciation that you are in the NYC watershed means little. There are pockets of good forage all over, but it can be tricky... Do you know when your flows are? When in the season did you get them? Early? Did you feed? They are probably testy because they have no forage or honey. My bees are irritable too, and they have stores...Do not try to blame someone else, even though the hand you are dealt may not have been as fair as you would have liked. Of the 100 nucs I bought this spring to cover some winter losses, about 25 were garbage right off the top. You are going to have to suck it up.


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Actually, this supplier only deals in top bar hives so I didn't have to do any converting. There is a way to convert by "chopping and cropping". If you're interested I can send you a link with a video. I doesn't seem difficult at all, although I haven't done it myself.


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Hey All,

At this time there have been 255 views to my post. Really surprising why more people haven't expressed themselves yet. Any ideas why not?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Stone said:


> sqkcrk,
> And thank you for your concern. Yes, I've had many kind offers to help and many people have come to my assistance with their knowledge and experience.
> 
> Yes, I agree, _"talk is cheap"_. But not matter if one agrees or disagrees, one can always learn from the opinions of others. And that is why I thank you.


Well,Stone, i thank you too for taking in my passion and not throwing it back at me. You are a better person than I. I get tired sometimes.

What were your expectations? Were they, perhaps, unspoken and larger than what was realistic? Was the seller the "Leader" of the BAND? If so, he is someone that you should be able to talk to and get satisfaction. From what I know of him.

I believe that what is right between a seller of bees and a buyer of bees is that they both communicate what is being offered and what is being expected and how these two come together in mutual benefit and satisfaction.

The seller of your bees can't charge you a fee for the bees that would make it worth his while selling you junk, not that you called it that. You wouldn't pay him enuf to make it worthwhile for him to use and abuse you once. Once bitten, twice shy. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. (no matter what Bush said, whatever that was).

Anyway, my point about what was charged for what you got and whether it was "right", is this, If I could get you to pay enuif for a nuc, enuf to really make a difference in my life, it would have to be pretty extravagant. And then you would be in a position to expect all sorts of things, like a new queen, if the original didn't take, after a month, me coming over to your house and leading you by the hand and etc, etc. 

But you would not pay me $500.00 for a nuc, or $400.00, or $300.00 or even $200.00, would you? what did you pay for what you got? What did you get? What did you expect, after the sale?

I sell nucs for $80.00, which includes 5 frames of brood, of all stages, some honey and a new laying queen. By new I mean, purchased that year, that spring. And usually laying for a cpl of weeks.

I could take that same nuc and put it in my own equipment and make 60 or 100 lbs of honey from it, which I could sell for $1.50 to $3.00 per pound. Or on the low end, both ways low, I could make $90.00 from that nucs and not deal w/ customers. On the high end, both ways, I could make $300.00 from that nuc.

But I like dealing w/ people. I'm not a recluse. So, next years price will be more worthwhile. $120.00. Or, maybe I should stop selling nucs. Then there would be no dissatisfied customers, except for those who bought bees last year and expected to get more the next year. Now that's a thought.


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## NDnewbeek (Jul 4, 2008)

The thing about it is: The supplier you bought bees from can probably produce dozens of customers who love his bees and come back year after year for queens and nucs.

In my view and as far as purchasing bees is concerned, the supplier has a responsibility to provide you with the agreed upon products (be they nucs or packages or queens) in good condition at the point of sale only. If you agree to purchase a 3lb package with a laying queen - then you should get 3lbs of bees and a laying queen. Who knows why the queen won't lay more than 10 eggs a day and the bees won't draw foundation once they are in your equipment? 

Sure, some queens are duds. I have had packages that went into hives and literally raced to see which would die first. Just this spring, I received two, otherwise identical packages from the same supplier. One went gangbusters and the other is a disaster - they are probably sister queens. How can the queen breeder control that?

Typically, (in my experiences) the small scale breeders will extend themselves to make it right. The bigger ones have been generally less inclined when I have run into this.

The bottom line (again, in my view) is that the learning curve can be steep and expensive. I keep a detailed file on queen and package suppliers along with my experiences with them and their bees performance for me. My experiences with some suppliers haven't always agreed with those posted on the forum. But, that is the nature of beekeeping. 

I bet that I have gone through about a half dozen package suppliers and another half dozen queen breeders trying to get stock that does well in the north. I have finally found two package suppliers and two queen producers who produce bees that do very well for me - you can bet that they get all my business now!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Stone said:


> Hey All,
> 
> At this time there have been 255 views to my post. Really surprising why more people haven't expressed themselves yet. Any ideas why not?


I started two new Threads this morning. Each has had more than 50 peeks and no replies. There must not be anything to ask or make comment on or they are not interested. I thought that alot of people would be interested in Tropilaelaps clareae, another mite, possibly being found in the U.S.. Ya never know.


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## jajtiii (Jul 11, 2008)

I would definitely make sure that the supplier's name was known (this forum might not allow that, but there are many ways to get this info out). I received poor Nuc's from a local provider this year (one had a frame and a half of bees! ha!). Some would have immediately confronted the fellow and dealt with him in that manner (and sometimes I do that, but I decided that I would try my hand at dealing with this Nuc for the experience of it.)

But, I can guarantee you that I have spread this experience far and wide. Beekeepers that I meet (especially new ones) hear about my experience with this fellow.

As it so happens, several other folks have commented about similar bad experiences with this guy. The next time that I see him, I will let him know (although I will take no more bees or rebates from him - I am done with him.)

I have no idea if you received 'bum' bees or not. The only way to know that this outfit is poor is to find others that have had similar experiences. If you find that most folks have had a positive experience with this guy, then I would assume that you received good bees and it was something else. Otherwise, if I found others with similar tales, I'd make sure his business suffers for it by shouting it from the mountaintops.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I respect Stone for not coming right out and saying that Mr. Frank R. Beekeeper of Whoknowswhere, NY sold me bum bees. This is the responsible way of inquiring, looking for more info.

I don't know stone. Perhaps he is a new beekeeper, a first year beekeeper. maybe he bought bees thinking that he would learn and bees can and have gotten along w/out humans for millenia, so if I just bought them and didn't do anything they aught to be okay. I don't know what he thought in getting bees. I'm surmising, not critisizing.

So, if any of this is true or almost true and especially if Stone hasn't had much experience so they have some basis of comparison of what is a good hive and what isn't, it would be wrong for him, or any new beekeeper, to be over critical of the seller and advertise his/her name.

It could be considered slander. Couldn't it? I believe that we need to be cautious about complaining about what one buys from a fellow beekeeper.

One reason I am so passionate about this is that this just happened to me. I have since met w/ the agrieved party and we have come to an understanding, a new beginning.

When I get a complaint, my first thought is "What did I do wrong?". And if I feel I did all I could to deliver what was ordered, then I think, "What happened after I did all that I could? I delivered the product and now after it has been in someone elses hands for this period of time something appears to be wrong. I did my part. Did the reciever do theirs?"

I always look at myself first and then at others. If I have a good cxrop of honey I take the credit. If I have a poor crop, except in cases of really poor weather like last year, I take the blame. I must have done something wrong, that I could have done differently.

I think that Stone is going about this wisely, by not naming names. It would only matter to a localized group of people and as much as beekeepers talk and news gets around, most of those who need to know probably already know.

Stone, maybe you aren't getting a broad set of respondents because I'm hogging the Thread space. Sorry.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

_"..hogging the Thread space. Sorry."_-sqkcrk.

Well, you know more [experience] about making up and selling bees/nucs. The majority here aren't selling bees/ nucs--maybe in commercial.

Maybe a question that was missed,.Stone? >
_"When in the season did you get them? Early? Did you feed?"--_mythomane

Dealing only in Top -bar-hives is a little unusual, isn't it? And selling TBH nucs?


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## Lauren (Jun 10, 2010)

Stone, In my opinion there are so many variables that it would be very hard to point to an ethical mis-step. Could there be no flow, thus the robbing and demise of the 3 hives and the bad attitude of the rest? 

I am new this year and started with one hive and have been a real worry wart. When I bought them the supplier said "I picked out a really gentle nuc for you to start with." And he HAD! When I e-mailed him and said that I thought my queen was gone he immediately offered to meet me after work with another queen. That would have been an hours drive for both of us. (As it turned out, she was there and my bifocals really do mean the difference between finding eggs or not :doh: ) This guy has earned my repeat business. 

On the other hand I once bought three "laying" hens from a local farm. The woman went in and took her time to pick out the three she was selling me and boxed them up. When I got home i realized that she had taken extra effort to get one with a hurt leg, one that was so old she practically had wrinkles and one that I think was a (non-laying) game hen. I am certain that she purposefully sold me her "problems" but there was no way to prove it. All I really got from her was a bad feeling and a good education. 

The bottom line is that although you can't really blame any failures on you supplier, his responses to a complaint/concern says a whole lot about a person and means the difference in keeping a customer. 

Maybe this thread should be "How to keep building your business instead of your bad reputation". 

I'm glad you are not quitting and I hope your new queens turn things around!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Oldbee said:


> Dealing only in Top -bar-hives is a little unusual, isn't it? And selling TBH nucs?


Stone is right in the heart of TBH territory in NY State.

We just had a talk from Sam Comfort, at the Empire State Honey Producers Association Summer Picnic. I wanted to get Sam's perspective on this TBH thing. This craze, if you will. This "new" way of having bees in ones life.

Pretty interesting and a more relaxed way of beekeeping than what i am used to. I may give it a try. Or just think about what I am doing in a slightly different way after hearing from Sam and reading posts on beesource.

One concern, a minor one, 'cause I think that protecting ones self from diseases is best done by knowing what you are doing and not keeping others from doing what they do, one concern is that if beekeeping is so easy to get into, because all you have to do is know how to build a trapezoidal box and throw some bees in it, will that make it easy to walk away from, leaving the bees to succumb to AFB and being a local source for others to get infected from?

If an Apiary Inspector identifies AFB in a TBH, how much of the TBH is thrown into the pit to be burned or deeply buried? Just the combs? The whole thing? Scorch the box? has anyone had this experience yet?


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

I really appreciate your responses. They meet my hopes for different viewpoints.

I'll try to answer your questions. I'm becoming increasingly aware that beekeeping and the study of bees is a lifelong study - as are most things in life - and I'm learning every day - as all of us do. Before I actually got my bees, I did research for two years. My biggest fear then, as it is now, was that I would not be able to know enough to care for them properly - that my ignorance would in some way do them harm. I think it's a good fear to have. It has me be more careful in everything I do. 

So, I'm into my second season and last year - a deluge - and this year - a desert - were definitely NOT the best years to begin beekeeping! My two colonies barely survived the winter. One is done. Out of four nucs I got this year, two are done. I have three left, as I indicated previously. One is booming, one is queenless (I'm waiting for queens for all three). One is hanging on. 

Lauren, I believe you're right. There is a terrible dearth and that's why this robbing hasn't let up. And that's a factor to consider as to why these hives went down. But from what I know and what a knowledgeable beek also pointed out to me - the signs of bad queens were also present.

_The bottom line is that although you can't really blame any failures on you supplier, his responses to a complaint/concern says a whole lot about a person and means the difference in keeping a customer. _

I think you make a very good point here. And frankly, it is more his lack of response to my concerns and lack of concern for the issues that were arising that disturbed me even more. 

_When I e-mailed him and said that I thought my queen was gone he immediately offered to meet me after work with another queen._

This was the response I was hoping to get from my supplier when I emailed him - many times. Unfortunately most often I got NO reply. Actually, my lifeline has been this forum and the Biobees forum based in the UK. Saved my behind many times, and I'm very grateful for them both. 

_When I get a complaint, my first thought is "What did I do wrong?". And if I feel I did all I could to deliver what was ordered, then I think, "What happened after I did all that I could? I delivered the product and now after it has been in someone elses hands for this period of time something appears to be wrong. I did my part. Did the reciever do theirs?"
_


sqkcrk, I know what you mean when you say this. And I'm pretty sure the supplier is thinking the same way. And there is great validity in thinking this way. I can't blame him. I've asked myself "What did I do wrong?" a lot lately. I can't help thinking that it's something I did or didn't do that caused these colonies to die off. Should I have fed when I didn't? Should I have reduced the entrances? Probably yes to both. It's not as easy to look at ones mistakes as it is to blame others. I've made that mistake alot.


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## StewRoten (May 22, 2010)

Maybe the flipside of the discussion could focus on those suppliers who go the extra mile in providing advice and help. My son and I are new beekeepers. We purchased 5 nucs in May from Sam Frogge in the Statesville, NC area. Sam was most generous in offering startup advice. A few weeks later he made a 30+ mile trip to our home to check on our progress. He did an inspection of the hives and corrected a number of rookie errors on our part. He has been available by phone and seems genuinely interested in our success. I am grateful for what has become a positive first experience.


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Wow, you are truly fortunate! Obviously the exact OPPOSITE of my experience.

And I think you are right: Why not make a point of giving a "well done" to those suppliers who go that extra mile for their customers?


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> One concern, a minor one, 'cause I think that protecting ones self from diseases is best done by knowing what you are doing and not keeping others from doing what they do, one concern is that if beekeeping is so easy to get into, because all you have to do is know how to build a trapezoidal box and throw some bees in it, will that make it easy to walk away from, leaving the bees to succumb to AFB and being a local source for others to get infected from?
> 
> If an Apiary Inspector identifies AFB in a TBH, how much of the TBH is thrown into the pit to be burned or deeply buried? Just the combs? The whole thing? Scorch the box? has anyone had this experience yet?


I think this is very important. I just joined on to the Gotham City Honey Co-op - http://gothamcitybees.com - here in NYC - where I live and work most of the year. And they are devoted to education and relentless about keeping NYC disease free. So it is true that if you don't know what you are doing it's easy to be a source of your neighbors' bees succumbing to diseases. We are our brothers' keepers - and must be. In my view educating oneself is not optional, it's a requirement.

To answer your question about a diseased TBH: I'd guess one would have to burn everything - box, bars, comb.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I bought 2 nucs each from 2 diffierient suppliers this summer. The first I bought very late May. The second I bought the 2nd week of June. The first nucs didn't take off very well even though I fed all of them until they had the first deep hive drawn out. I had installed a 2nd deep when they had about 7 of the 10 frames drawn out. By the 2nd week in July I had to put supers on the 2nd set of nucs that I had bought. Not so with the 1st set. They weren't even drawing out the 2nd deep very well. So I fed them about 1/2 gallon each to try to kick start them. The 3rd week in July 1 of the first was robbed out and was gone. I was trying to get Russian Queens which took a little while. During the time that I have been working with these nucs the 2nd supplier called me a couple of times to check on the progress of his nucs. I never heard a word from the first suppler. I also have called the 2nd supplier several times for advice, and he is glad to help.

So my take on this is that I will highly reccommend the 2nd to every one. I will not openly bad mouth the 1st because it just might have been bad luck on his part. However if anyone asks about him I will tell them of my experience. Sooner or later he will either put out a better product or will go out of business for lack of business. Just my 2 cents worth, er, maybe a couple of hundred dollars worth. Oh and the good nucs were $25.00 each cheaper.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Stone, I had a similar problem...bought 6 queens from a reputable beek/breeder, and 3 weeks after installing them, all were dead or gone. I did everthing right in their introduction, but...things happen. One queen was dead on arrival. I chalked the whole thing up to experience... did not contact the breeder. I was there when he selected my queens and installed them in their transit boxes. I know they were new, and fertile because he pulled them out of strong nucs.

However, the breeder has no idea how successful the mating flight of the queen was. Even the best breeders pull a cropper periodically. So i don't blame him. But would I buy from him again? No. I wanted to try that race of bee, and it just didn't work for me. I have other races that work much better, and with which I have success. 

Was it his fault or my fault? Only the cosmos knows, and it isn't telling. So I move on.

Was your breeder ethical? Given the evidence, I think so. I don't know how you tell the age of a queen by looking at her. All I can go on is her egg laying pattern. And some queens just don't get mated well. Should the beek have been more accomodating to you? Probably. Esp. if you are geographically close to him. But his failure to do so reveals him to be inconsiderate and a bit foolish as a businessman, rather than unethical. My thought.

But most breeders sell to beeks, assuming the beek buyer knows what he is doing. Sigh... I learn a lot from my mistakes... :doh: And you have demonstrated yourself to be a stand-up sort of guy. Hopefully this and next year will be good for you.
Regards,
Steven


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## Ethfol (Jun 25, 2010)

Anyone looking for a good nuc supplier in Ontario, Canada? If so I know 2 very good ones!


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

valleyman said:


> I will not openly bad mouth the 1st because it just might have been bad luck on his part. However if anyone asks about him I will tell them of my experience. Sooner or later he will either put out a better product or will go out of business for lack of business.


This is the way I feel exactly. In fact, at some point I think it would be a good idea for me to make him aware of this discussion thread. I think it would give him lots to think about - and do his life good. It's like what happens when you have an argument with your wife or husband and you ask good friends to give their opinions (NOT take your side - honest OPINION. Very often their viewpoints and perspectives hadn't occurred to you and you are able to see things differently.

_Was your breeder ethical? Given the evidence, I think so. Should the beek have been more accommodating to you? Probably. Esp. if you are geographically close to him. But his failure to do so reveals him to be inconsiderate and a bit foolish as a businessman, rather than unethical._

_Hopefully this and next year will be good for you._

Steven, In my mind, the jury is still out about this person's ethics but the second point you make is on the mark. It accents the points I've been trying to make. And, thanks for your good wishes.


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

You are a new beek. This is called "paying your dues." Beekeeping 30 years ago was a piece of cake -- not so now. It just sounds like you are blaming others for your lack of success. Top bar hives are, in my opinion, (people are going to jump on me for this) a lot harder to keep and thrive with. I kept bees in NY for a few years and you have to have very good locations or you are dust. My bees down here in Texas, even with having a great spring, are all starving to death right now. This is how it is. If you really can recognize a "bad" queen from a "good" one, you should have requeened a long time ago. You need to stop whining and get to work.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

[Very often their viewpoints and perspectives hadn't occurred to you and you are able to see things differently.]

This is the way I learn, actually sometimes without making mistakes. You must keep an open mind. You must be able to use the common sense advice, and forget the rest.


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Mythomane,

Yes, I'm a new beek. But I'm not a new person. Not only do I not mind "paying my dues" - I EXPECT to! Only a fool would think that in any new endeavor, there is no learning curve. Of course, I expect to make mistakes - and I want to see where I made them! I want to be better. That's the idea, Mythomane.

And really, if you read my posts - and the responses of others - carefully and with a truly open mind and paid attention - you'd see this throughout my responses.

My purpose was always to find out the opinions of others and how I should best see this whole situation. I don't want anyone to be embarrassed denigrated or slandered. I made this VERY clear from the beginning and by expressly NOT mentioning any names.

I wish you had respected my efforts in keeping it private and in keeping the discussion very wide and not personal. So please, spare me and others your weak attempt to antagonize me by name calling. It doesn't serve any useful purpose except to show others something about your character.

So whoever you believe this supplier to be - Joe, Norman, Chester, Martha, Lucas or Charlie - please keep it to yourself. Thanks.


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## berkshire bee (Jan 28, 2007)

Stone, A few things I would look at are: Is the area you are in really a good place to keep bees? Pristine doesn't neccessarily mean a good foraging area. Are there other beekeepers really close by that have success, so that you have some kind of benchmark to compare to? Do you have a mentor to help guide you in the right direction? There are so many variables. I had a queen in a nuc that wasn't really doing much, but I think the reason was there weren't enough bees in the box with her, and she was only laying what they could handle as far as bringing in food and covering brood. After adding a frame of bees she picked up and is now in a double deep with honey supers. There are many possibilities as to what didn't go right, and it shows you are on the right track, by not laying blame, but asking what may have gone wrong. Good luck.


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Thanks for this, Berkshirebee. Sounds a lot like what happened to my three gone nucs. When I got them, they were pretty full of bees and brood. But things went downhill fast. As I see it now, I should have done what you did, but I didn't have the presence of mind born or experience. Add to this the relentless robbing that was going on. I was awful seeing them dwindle. I should have added that bar of brood..... That's part of the learning curve that hurts.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Other than some places in the Adirondacks, i don't know of very many places in NY where bees can't be kept. For sure, some places have better nectar flows than other places, but even in NYC bees can be kept. So, I don't think that your location is the problem.

Even though I have never inspected Apiaries in Delaware Co. I have inspected in Westchester, Rockland, Putnam and Orange, as well as The Bronx, Queens and Suffolk and Nassau Counties. All of these places had bee hives that thrived. isn't Delawarwe north of Westchester? Is Hudson in Delaware? Or Poughkeepsie? I can't find my maps.


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Do a Google for Delhi, NY or Walton, or Deposit. You'll see where it is.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Bear Country I bet.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I hunt and fish by pepacton reservoir.

Yes, it's bear country alright.


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## giant pumpkin peep (Mar 14, 2009)

WAIT! Why do we keep blaming the bee supplier over and over? Is it possible, you stone, made a lot of bad mistakes and your bees died? 

How long after you got your nucs did these expeirenced beeks look at your hives? Did you feed? was there robbing? I helped a another beek close by whose bees where doing well, went queenless and I had to save them.

Remember, when you take those bees, THEY ARE YOUR BEES. They are your problem from that moment forward. Please stop throwing the blame on the nuc supplier when the beek could be the fault of the owner of the bees. He has no obligation to replace your bees because you accepted them and took them. They where your bees. If it was a bad nuc to begin with that another story.


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

I sell top bar hive nucs here in Portland, Oregon for a minimal price simply because there are so many top bar beekeepers who have no source for colonies other than swarms or packages. I catch swarms, or split my own hives, monitor their progress and sell those that appear to be thriving. I, of course, can make no guarantee of their success, as this will depend on many other factors such as the beekeeper, the environment, the hive, disease, pests, etc. 

I go out of my way to assist customers, many of whom are new beekeepers -- going so far as to visit their apiaries, inspect the colonies and offer guidance. In the end, though, a colony that was strong for me very well may succumb to any of the aforementioned problems for the customer. Bees aren't like other goods -- I don't know of anyone offering a warranty or guarantee on the success of their nucs...

Something similar happened to me last year: As an experiment I started 20 packages -- 10 each from two different suppliers. Over the winter almost all of the packages from one of the suppliers died off, while I only lost one from the other supplier. I, of course, was disappointed by this, but I have many friends who purchased packages from the same supplier and their colonies are doing great. 

This discussion makes me wonder how the colonies near you are doing in traditional (Langstroth) hives. Are they experiencing similar losses and or low honey production? In addition, how the colonies of your supplier are doing this year in New York. 

Sorry to hear about the rough start,
Matt


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Since it looks like we may be going over the same territory, I think it's time for me to bow out of this thread. Someone on the forum pm'd me and said I was embarrassing myself and I should quit the thread. He/she has a good point if this goes on and on and on.....!

Thank you all very much for helping me see this better. I have a lot to think about.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Stone said:


> I have a lot to think about.


As do we all.


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## Bens-Bees (Sep 18, 2008)

I think it all depends on how long you've had the bees... if it's within a few weeks, I think the supplier needs to take responsibility for it unless you did something really boneheaded to kill them. But after a few months, the beekeeper has to take responsibility for their own bees.

As for your particulars, I think you should really look at why they are agitated, and not just blame the bees' genetics. There very well could be a stressor that is not only supressing your colonies but agitating them as well. Maybe they are being robbed, or maybe there is wildlife that is disturbing the hives regularly, etc.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

I recall that there have been reports by experienced beekeepers on this forum concerning package bees, etc. , not doing well and requiring requeening.

While it's an 'oldy but a goody' to claim that any problems were the fault of an inexperienced purchaser, I am of the opinion that not all bee breeders are created equal.

As long as demand is high, and breeders are struggling to meet that demand, it's no wonder that some breeders will produce more 'duds' than others.

If the nucs that Stone purchased failed in short order after their receipt, than he has every right to ask for a remedy from the breeder.

I don't know what the particulars are in stones case, but they are still just bugs in a box. I've purchased a broad spectrum of live specimens over the years, and I've asked for a fix from suppliers on a number of occassions. They're usually helpful enough.

Stone, don't let the 'usual suspects' get to you. If you believe that you're in the right, then don't be afraid to stick up for yourself.

I think that they have a 'complaint' thread on this board somewhere.


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Yes, there are some sellers who are looking for a quick buck, but there are also many buyers who want something for nothing. One of my hobbies is growing and selling heirloom tomato seeds - it never ceases to amaze me when people who have zero gardening experience buy a $1 pack of seeds from me, and then think that $1 purchase includes me spending several hours teaching them how to be successful gardeners.

Unless you paid for a beekeeping course packaged along with the nuc purchase, I'd expect the nuc purchase price to be for the nuc....nothing more and nothing less.

I'm a firm believer in caveat emptor - let the buyer beware. Outright fraud by a seller is wrong, but a buyer has a lot of responsibility for their purchase.

From what I have seen, successful beekeeping is 90% management, and 10% the bees. A seller isn't responsible for your management methods.

At my bee club, there are club "experts" who can give you advice on your bees, and what to expect from them....but these experts have never worked a hive of bees in their life. We also have "experienced" club members who "don't like to poke around in the brood boxes", and they only open their hives a couple times a year.

Take advice from experienced beekeepers with a grain of salt. They may have 1 year of experience, 30 times over.


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Very well put CB


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

When it comes down to it, you roll the dice and take your chances and the house always wins. Such is life. No one died. And we got so much of an insight into how people think, didn't we? Whether that is worth the price of the education, who knows? And it doesn't matter too much anyway. Because what was learned by Stone is his own education and it's priceless.

What did you learn, Stone?


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

[From what I have seen, successful beekeeping is 90% management, and 10% the bees.]]

Countryboy, I completly agree, except for the above statement. I think the % is high but no where near 90-10. From my limited experience all bee suppliers are not equal. I've dealt with several and heard about several.


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## Bob Nelson (Feb 10, 2005)

Not to beat a dead horse but from the perspective of bees doing *what we want them to do*, 90/10 is pretty close.

Honeybees are incredibly resilient. Depending on how they are hived or configured and left to be without our meddling the figure is lower than 90. In nature they do fine without us (0/100).

This is an invaluable thread for starters as well as a good reminder of bee business dealings for the rest. There is some excellent information and perspective. Respectful of Stone bowing out.

Bob Nelson


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## locoskip (Apr 25, 2008)

Hey guys 

I got a nuc form a local bee keeper here in upstate Ny It came heave with honey and Full of bees . But . limited brood and no queen. It was a week from pickup before I could inspect it . after only a little wrangling 2-3 e mails and no harsh words he replaced it . 

Aside and seprperate the colony has been poky all summer. I could change the queen. but am not going to . i'm going to see what nature does . this part is my choice not on the supplier as she is laying a good pattern just not very prolific. which to me is more the colony than the queen. 

it the item is not as advetised you should be made hole there is some grey area here as control of the "quality" or perhaps Genitics if limited.

my 2cents

mike


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

One thing i did not know about nucs and buying them when i was a newbie is...nucs often contain the older queen. Rarely, unless specified, do nucs and even packages contain the newly mated queens. So when buying your nucs, you should have a back up plan if a queen fails or is not up to par!
It is one of the ways that a person selling nucs keeps his queens young.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

This may be more often true than I am knowldgable of, but it isn't true at all in my nucs or in the nucs (1500 of them) that are made by a friend of mine who sells to Betterbee and Wixson Honey Inc in NY.

The way that I make nucs is that I raise brood above an excluder, allowing bees to cover that brood and then adding a mated queen or a queen cell to the nuc after it has been moved to another yard. There is more to it than that, but basically that's it.

I wouldn't want an old queen in a nuc that I would buy. So I don't sell them that way. 

Besides, if a queen is laying well enuf to take brood from and recover in a short while, why replace her. I know others replace queens annually, but I don't. Unless the bees are doing it w/out my permission. Which wouldn't surprise me. Those sneaky buggers.


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Besides, if a queen is laying well enuf to take brood from and recover in a short while, why replace her. I know others replace queens annually, but I don't. Unless the bees are doing it w/out my permission. Which wouldn't surprise me. Those sneaky buggers.


I've got incredibly pissy, nasty tempered bees. Opened up to feed my most booming, strongest colony and at least twenty put their hindquarters into my sweatshirt! I'm happy I have queens coming in the mail! Even though this hive is booming, I can't go near them. I'd say this is a good reason to re-queen. (As I write, I'm scratching my arm where the stingers got through.)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I agree, Stone. Requeening is in order. 

Are these agressive bees in a Langstroth type hive or a TBH? What do you use for smoke? How are you smoking before opening? Have they always been this way? 

I don't know what you know. That's why I ask. 

There certainly are agressive bees that really gaurd their hive. I have seen some pretty nasty colonies that if it weren't for the honey they produced would have gotten requeened, if they had been mine. 

Two hives that I Inspected will always be at the top of my list of agressive colonies. They met me at 75 to 100 feet away from their hive, right as I stepped out of the truck. We did them first. The rest were kittens compared to those two.

Agressive hives can be a liability, especially in a residential area.


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

I only have TBHs. I don't use smoke - usually - and didn't today. I think I exhaled too hard when I opened up the follower and they jumped up at me. I walked away and things calmed down. When I went back to take out the feeding container, they were all over my arm! 

About half hour later I walked over to take a look (no veil) - I was 20 feet away - and one of the girls dive bombed me? REALLY bad girls!

I had the guys doing the lawn today. Maybe the weed whacker pissed them off.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Stone - my belated thoughts- On the day that you received your nucs, where you satisfied with your transaction? Where there any misrepresentations of the product you purchased? Where you happy a week later?

If you answered no, then I can understand your dissatisfaction. I would by nucs from multiple suppliers, so you can compared vendors. 

IF you answered yes, then It appears that both of you had fulfilled the contract. Now your responsibility starts. The Vendor can not control what happens to the bees once they are in your possession. 

Did the vendor raise the queens , or where they purchased from a 3rd party?

If the vendor raised the queens, you have just paid the price of learning what his bees are like.

If a third party raised the queens, he has less direct control over the queens, but might reveal his source, so that you can avoid the possibility of buying the same queens from a different vendor. For example, I purchased numerous packages from an individual that posts on this site. They informed me where the queens came from on the top of the package. I recorded the information on the roof(cover). One particular hive (only had one queen of that subspecies)turned out to be prolific, but slightly ill tempered. The vendor of the packages asked, has been informed of the characteristics of that sub
species. We can now make a decision as to whether or not to purchase more queens of that type.

It was not good that you where eventually unhappy with your bees, but you are the beekeeper(note the work "keep" in there). At what point does it become your responsibility to requeen ill tempered hives, like the rest of us do? All my hives would be ill tempered if I did not use smoke. Try some queens from other sources. This is a learning experience. Sounds like you got a stiff first lesson. If there is anything I can do to help, let me know.

Roland
Linden Apiary, Est. 1852


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Stone said:


> I only have TBHs. I don't use smoke - usually - and didn't today


Stone,
Man to man, if you will. I do not understand people who don't use smoke when working beehives. Especially when they then decide that the bees must be bad bees, nasty bees. They aren't nasty bees, you did not "knock at the door properly". That's how I see the use of smoke. Like if I came to your door and knocked before coming in. If we knew each other well, that would be okay. But even if we did know each other well and I just walked right in your house w/out knocking, you'd be on the defensive. At least at first.

People have been using smoke to work bees for hundreds of thousands of years. There are ancient wall paintings that show this. There are so called "primative" cultures around the world where bees are kept, they all use smoke.

Why don't you use smoke?

If you don't use smoke, you will have the same problems w/ Langstroth equipment.

I don't know who has been teaching you beekeeping, but someone needs to go back to school.

I am sorry if this is all too harsh a reaction, but I don't have the tact to sugar coat my reaction and I think that you, and everyone else, needs to hear this straight.

I took a friend of mine who had never been in a beehive in his life to work w/ me all day. We went to 5 different yards and worked 200 hives, putting on supers. The only time he got stung was when he removed his veiled hood while I ran a lawn mower around the yard. That is what proper use of smoke and knowing how to behave around bees can be like. I wish you would spend a day w/ me.


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## mythomane (Feb 18, 2009)

Smoke. Who would have thought. Thanks for the tip sqkcrk !


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

I'm very glad you didn't sugar coat your because I learned from it. These were good points you made!

I worked all my TBHs last year with no smoke and the girls were as sweet as can be. (By the way, these are all TBHs so things are a little calmer when you open these up.) I worked with a beek recently who fed his Langs with no smoke and he did fine. I've seen YouTubes of The Fat Bee Man working his Lang bees without a veil. He claims his bees are so gentle people come into his yard with 500 hives and never wear protection. So it's not unheard of to have very gentle bees, from what I know.

Lately, I've been finding that my bees have been getting nastier. Don't know all the reasons but I'm sure this very long dearth has had a lot to do with it. Also, my colonies have been relentlessly hit by robbing. It just has not stopped. It seemed every time I looked out they were getting hit again. This could do it too.

So, I'm not against smoking at all. I just have not done it too often. FYI: Just bought a self lighting attachment for my butane tank and I'll be getting to work next time!

By the way, sqkcrk, I'd love to have a chance to work with you!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

mythomane said:


> Smoke. Who would have thought. Thanks for the tip sqkcrk !


 Oh go stick your head in a bucket of water. 

Stone, I do think that my first thoughts were correct. You need to look at what you are doing. What you are doing incorrectly. 

Who is your advisor on this project? What is their level of experience? What kinds of hives do they have? Do they use smoke or not?

This Thread has me shaking my head in wonder.


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## jannaMI (May 16, 2010)

Stone said:


> Hey All,
> 
> At this time there have been 255 views to my post. Really surprising why more people haven't expressed themselves yet. Any ideas why not?


I'm one who was reading with no intention of posting, simply due to the fact that I'm a newbeek, and haven't had any experience in this area, and also because what I would have added had already been said by others. Take it as a compliment that people are at least checking out what you started - I know I appreciated learning from your experience, and from the thoughts of others opcorn:


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## Countryboy (Feb 15, 2009)

Another thought to think about...

If the purchased nuc does twice as good as you expected, would you go back to the supplier and pay him double? Or give him half the honey produced?

But if the purchased nuc does half as good as you expected...


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

This year is this year, not last year. Things are different. Do you have the original queens, or did the bees make a new queen? IS that why they got meaner? Are they Queenless?
Why are your hives getting robbed? Usually it is the strong that rob the weak. Did you build them up so that they could resist the robbing? Do you have reduced entrances? What are you doing to correct the problem?

Roland


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Stone, I do think that my first thoughts were correct. You need to look at what you are doing. What you are doing incorrectly.


Head in a bucket of water is funny. Some well placed humor often sends a clear message. 

I did say I was going to bow out, but since this thread has taken a different track, and different subjects are being discussed, I thought I'd respond. You are absolutely right about looking at what we are doing. That was the whole purpose of my original post - trying to see things as well as I could - which of course I do NOT want to get into again. 

Well, I have no adviser just so. I'm doing a good deal of reading and asking questions on this forum and another one. And I'm getting quite an education! I also joined a local beekeeping club - Gotham City Honey Co-op. And it seems to be a very supportive and educational group. I've been getting LOTS of help from a few people on this. And I've recently become friends with a local beekeeper who has been very supportive.

By the way, I posted separately about this robbing situation on this forum and on Biobees and I learned a lot from that one. So I won't go over it again, if you don't mind. If you like I could find the thread and give it to you.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

can I send you a smoker? I have a cpl of used ones. 

Yeah, where is that Thread?


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Hey Mark,

Some good news: Went to check my colonies today...and I used smoke! 

Worked out well. Just a few bandits zinging me now and then. But the real good news is that the colony that was queenless for awhile has new royalty as big as my thumb and she looks like she's laying well. The other two are doing well too but still no excess honey stores. Early golden rod is in bloom and they are busy but it's still a toss up if they'll gather enough to get through winter. They are going to have to do a lot of work to catch up. I'm hopeful but not optimistic. (Is this a contradiction? :scratch


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Yeah, where is that Thread?


http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244418&highlight=relentless+robbing


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## rocky1 (Jul 19, 2009)

Just stumbled into the thread here... 

Stone for the sake of keeping you in the thread learning, I'm only briefly going to touch on the ethics issues. Suffice to say if they were alive, queenright and healthy when you bought them, the supplier gave you what you paid for. 

As for what you did wrong... Aside from talk nasty about your bees when working them with no smoke, it's hard saying. 

First off you are inexperienced, and many of the things you probably need to be looking at to try and feed the folks on this forum all the information we collectively need to make an accurate assessment and help you out, you probably wouldn't recognize. 

Beehives die dude, it's a fact of life in this business. They've done it since I started helping my old man in the business 47 years ago. It's way worse now than it was back then. 

It happens to the biggest and best of us. Every year those of us in the business as a profession, hear stories of beekeepers losing literally thousands of hives of bees. We've been down that road, and started over from scratch as commercial operators. Have two more beekeepers we run bees for on the clover that have been there as well. If you think you have questions, try losing everything when it's your sole means of income. You only think you are perplexed!! 

Were they bad queens? Was your supplier liable? We run a few hives of our own lease several thousand colonies on the clover. Last year our numbers were at 720 hives, and we purchased over 1200 queens throughout the year to maintain those numbers. We bought queens from 4 - 5 different suppliers, some very big, some small, had the same luck with all of them. Should our supplier be liable? Honestly, I don't see how. Are things better this year? Uhmmmm... NOPE! Probably worse this year to be honest with you. Have not had a real good year, not sure why. At present we suspect nosema. You might want to treat for such as well. 

Pissy bees... 

-- If you're popping the lid without smoke expect it! Sometimes you can get away with that, sometimes you can't. 

-- If they're being robbed relentlessly, they will develop an attitude!

-- If they're queenless, they will develop an attitude.

-- Weather can bring on bad attitude. Rainy, really hot and dry, extremely windy... basically anything that stops them from making honey. 

-- Certain species of plants can cause them to develop an attitude. For example Alfalfa has a self pollinating pistil, when the bee sticks his tongue down in the flower, he gets smacked on top of the head. Find a yard that's working alfalfa exclusively, and they'll be grumpy. 

-- Intensity of the honey flow can make them grumpy. 

-- Color of your clothing.

-- Laundry soap used.

-- Bath soap used. 

-- Deodorant used. 

-- Time of Day. 

-- Your own attitude and disposition. 

-- The way you move in the beeyard. 

The list of variables goes on and on. I'm not saying they aren't and it's all you, but any number of things can cause it. And, yes some of them are meaner than others. We had one marked up in our operation for 2 - 3 years MAOCSSOB, great big letters, and no I can't translate all of that herein, it'll just come out Mean *** Ornery **** Sucking Son of a ***** . Asked the Florida inspector to check it for Africanized genes and it did test clean. But he did state that he agreed with our label on it, and he said it was certainly suspect. 

And, one of the guys we lease bees from had to purchase over half his queens from south Texas in rebuilding his operation a few years ago. You'd get stung 4 - 5 times simply stepping out of the truck in the beeyard. You did not get out and put your veil on, you drove into the yard with it own, because those would come in the window after you. 

As for the nostalgia thing and the TBH arrangement... unless you plan on never growing beyond a few hives, buy some frames. There is a reason commercial operations run them. Top Bar Hives are impossible to work properly. 

Feed 'em up, treat for mites and nosema, get some weight on them, and they'll be OK. 

It's all a learning experience. Find the oldest beekeeper in the area and hang out with him, he'll need the help, enjoy the company, and put up with all your questions in exchange for it!!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Stone said:


> Hey Mark,
> 
> Some good news: Went to check my colonies today...and I used smoke!
> 
> I'm hopeful but not optimistic. (Is this a contradiction? :scratch


Good. Excellent. I am glad to see that you are willing to try what I suggested. I'm glad it worked better for you. I assume that you also wore veil and gloves?

I can't tell from here, but what they need they should be able to put by before nothing is available from the environment. Then you may wish to do some supplemental feeding. There are Threads that deal w/ this. I believe that MIchael Bush has advice on that on his website. You should check that out either way.

Contradiction? No, I know what you mean.


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Rocky1,

Thanks for your post. Reading it, one can't help seeing things from a different point of view, especially when you said:

_It happens to the biggest and best of us. Every year those of us in the business as a profession, hear stories of beekeepers losing literally thousands of hives of bees. We've been down that road, and started over from scratch as commercial operators. If you think you have questions, try losing everything when it's your sole means of income. You only think you are perplexed!!
_
That sure puts things in perspective. My problems are very small compared to those of others. It has me understand things better.

And when you write this:

_First off you are inexperienced, and many of the things you probably need to be looking at to try and feed the folks on this forum all the information we collectively need to make an accurate assessment and help you out, you probably wouldn't recognize._ 

It hadn't occurred to me that I may not be looking AT the right things or FOR the right things, and that I may not be noticing things that I should notice - in order to report my observations on the forum

On the subject of onery bees: I can't even imagine what you guys were going through, sitting in your truck being attacked right through the windows, before you even pulled into the yard! I'm a lucky man compared to that.

I'm really asking: How do you explain guys who can work their bees in a t-shirt, with no smoke, no veil, in a yard of 500 hives? Is this myth or does it really happen? I'm talking The Fat Bee Man. I've seen a YouTube of it, and many people have attested to this - people who have been there, with no protection, all day long. 

There are large bee clubs - with people who have been former commercial operators - that will re-queen if a bee looks crossed eyed at them. Where does one draw the line? What kind of bee behavior is reasonable to expect?

_*
It's all a learning experience. Find the oldest beekeeper in the area and hang out with him, he'll need the help, enjoy the company, and put up with all your questions in exchange for it!! *_

This is great advice. I'm in the process.

Best,
Stone


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Stone said:


> I'm really asking: How do you explain guys who can work their bees in a t-shirt, with no smoke, no veil, in a yard of 500 hives? Is this myth or does it really happen? I'm talking The Fat Bee Man. I've seen a YouTube of it, and many people have attested to this - people who have been there, with no protection, all day long.


Its not a myth, im sure that some beeks do as seen in the videos, question is do they do it year round?? I doubt it. When my bees are on the orange flow i could probably open 20 lids and not get stung they are so focused on that intense bloom, same hives 6 weeks later (flow over)..... completely different story their demeanor changes with many factors including season, forage, predation, robbing, queenless...list could go on and on. I've never worn a suit or a jacket (to hot down here) but from a safety standpoint almost always wear a veil, one beesting in the eye can cause major optical complications. Occasionally i will pop a top without a veil like recently I was showing three kids through a hive and gave them all my veils, didnt catch one that day, but three days later same "calm" hive and no veil, got 2 right on the end of the nose. Smoke and how you operate in and around the hive usually dictates the demeanor of the bees, but they are bees and have a mind and world of their own. Find a good mentor or two and good luck.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Stone said:


> I'm really asking: How do you explain guys who can work their bees in a t-shirt, with no smoke, no veil, in a yard of 500 hives? Is this myth or does it really happen? I'm talking The Fat Bee Man. I've seen a YouTube of it, and many people have attested to this - people who have been there, with no protection, all day long.
> Stone


It is a seasonal thing - you need to learn when the bees will let you work that way and when you can't. The temperament of the bees varies so much depending on the flow and weather conditions. If someone is leading you to believe that they always work their bees without gear and smoke I'd be immediately skeptical that they were a) not being truthful or b) were just "skipping" bee work when the bees were less than hospitable.

I've greatly enjoyed this season teaching myself to work hives without gloves. I started using latex exam gloves to give myself the illusion that I still had protection and then after a few weeks was able to give them up too. All this while the weather was good and a flow on. When the dearth hits, I won't try working gloveless. To assign human characteristics to the bees: there are too many bored bees in the hive, itching for something to do, and along comes this guy who rips the roof off of their house. Need I say more?


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Andrew Dewey said:


> To assign human characteristics to the bees: there are too many bored bees in the hive, itching for something to do, and along comes this guy who rips the roof off of their house. Need I say more?


Sure! Try "I'm the landlord checking things out to be sure your home is serving your needs." :lpf: "Oh, and by the way, I'll collect the rent now, too." 

Dearth or flow, I work the bees gloveless, just move very carefully... though I have a pair handy, in case one hive takes serious offense at my presence. No problems with arthritis any more. 
Regards,
Steven


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## rocky1 (Jul 19, 2009)

> On the subject of onery bees: I can't even imagine what you guys were going through, sitting in your truck being attacked right through the windows, before you even pulled into the yard! I'm a lucky man compared to that.



Suffice to say, it was a long summer! The help cringed every time we even suggested working those bees. At the very mention of working them, the entire crew would start hunting long sleeve shirts, gloves, duct tape, extra smokers... 

Yet even working those bees, there was occasion when I worked them in short sleeve shirt, and they were no meaner than any others we had that summer. That wasn't the rule however! As a rule, they were far more aggressive, seemed to have been trained to attack places that were extremely tender and unreachable to remove stingers, like dead center between your shoulder blades. And, the venom burned far worse than any of the others worked. Thought it was just me, but we got to comparing notes and we all saw those traits in them. 

The gentleman that owned them laughed about them being gentle bees when they got back to California, but he did requeen everything that fall. 




> I'm really asking: How do you explain guys who can work their bees in a t-shirt, with no smoke, no veil, in a yard of 500 hives? Is this myth or does it really happen? I'm talking The Fat Bee Man. I've seen a YouTube of it, and many people have attested to this - people who have been there, with no protection, all day long.



Oh I have worked bees in no hat and veil, and a short sleeve shirt, I've worked them in shorts and no shirt, have an employee in Florida that does that all the time, to this day... but not without smoke. It can be done, I'm not saying it can't, but it cannot be done 100% of the time. There are days the fat bee man, will get et up doing so. I guarantee it!!

I haven't seen the fat bee man video, for all I know it may be my dad, don't have a clue. But I'm betting that if you watch the video, you will find that his movements are slow and almost fluid. There are no hasty movements, no jerking frames out, no bouncing things around, everything he does is slow and deliberate. 

Your behavior in the bee yard, plays as much a part in the bees' temperament as their attitude does. When you work 4 - 5 thousand hives you learn, (_if you are smart enough_), that the bees will tell you how fast you can work. If you aren't smart enough, you better get tough and carry an extra vocabulary to the beeyard with you, because you are subject to need it. Even something as simple as popping lids and putting supers on can be mighty ugly, until you learn that they only tolerate you going soooo fast. Same holds true in working the broodnest, if they are really aggressive, try slowing your movements down, and take your time. It doesn't always work, but more often than not, you'll find them more pleasant to deal with if you do. 

A little smoke goes a long way Stone. It'll make things much easier to deal with. Believe me!!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

On the flip side, some says they also have a time limit. It is best to get your work in the brood chamber done before they grow weary of your presence, and begin to protest. Not too fast, not too slow. Just right.

Roland


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## rocky1 (Jul 19, 2009)

Lingering too long generally leads to other bees picking at the open hive, wherein, yes they do get grumpy there too. Very good point.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Stone said:


> I worked all my TBHs last year with no smoke and the girls were as sweet as can be. (By the way, these are all TBHs so things are a little calmer when you open these up.) I worked with a beek recently who fed his Langs with no smoke and he did fine. I've seen YouTubes of The Fat Bee Man working his Lang bees without a veil. He claims his bees are so gentle people come into his yard with 500 hives and never wear protection. So it's not unheard of to have very gentle bees, from what I know.
> 
> Lately, I've been finding that my bees have been getting nastier. Don't know all the reasons but I'm sure this very long dearth has had a lot to do with it. Also, my colonies have been relentlessly hit by robbing. It just has not stopped. It seemed every time I looked out they were getting hit again. This could do it too.


a few thoughts:

1. i wouldn't have much to say to a customer who had "nice bees turn nasty" and blamed a queen (or nuc) i sold them for nasty behavior when not using smoke. bees can get more defensive as the colony grows (ie, later in the season), when disturbed by animals, weather, supercedure, dearth, ...and robbing. smoking will help in virtually all cases.

2. bees can be gentle...i often work without a veil, hardly ever with gloves. filling a feeder generally isn't opening the hive to much...and generally doesn't involve pulling frames....but sometimes the mood is a bit different, and i put on a veil. 

4. In Don's case, his bees are very nice...but his home yard is mostly (if not all) nucs...and small colonies are especially undefensive. he also open feeds dry sugar (so they are never in a serious dearth). with that said, his bees are very nice, and we were there collecting nucs in the dark, in the rain, no veils (and ramona wearing flipflops) with very few stings at all.

deknow


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