# OAV and medium brood frames



## Bear Creek Steve

brad bee,

I think that you have all of the answers in your hands. Open the OxyVap box and read the instructions and then you know everything that anybody else here on BS could tell you.

Steve


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## Brad Bee

The box and the instructions are long gone.....


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## Arnie

Here ya go:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-heat-vaporization-and-other-methods-part-2-of-2-parts/

http://beekeepingnaturally.co.uk/varroa-mite-treatment-using-oxalic-acid-vaporization/#.VwBrxnrtncc

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/cor.htm

https://nhbees.wordpress.com/2014/10/12/oxalic-acid-vaporization/

From my experience: we tried going with no treatment for a few years. Lost all our bees.

That convinced us TF wasn't going to work for us so we got a vaporizer. No more problems. 

It's that simple.


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## ToeOfDog

Brad Bee said:


> Let me preface this question by saying I have never treated for mites.
> 
> I have bees that have been treatment free for a long time.
> 
> I would rather stay as "natural" with treatments as I can, but given how infested these 2 hives are, is there another "natural" treatment that would be better?



http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fighting-varroa-biotechnical-tactics-ii/

Read the links too. 

Drone culling works better if you are small cell. Put atleast 2 frames in there. You are getting a late start. Dropping a foundationless frame in the brood nest right now will result in a drone frame


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## Brad Bee

Thanks for the replies and the links. I read every word. Now I've got to check on dosage per hive body and get some OA. We have a Lowes in town but their website doesn't show the wood bleach that most folks use. I would like to treat them tomorrow after church but that may not be an option if I can't get any OA tomorrow.


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## enjambres

The dosage is one quarter teaspoon per box in the hive body portion, so you'd use 1/2 tsp if you have a deep and a medium. I am assuming you will be using SavoGran Wood bleach withe active ingredient being pure oxalic acid.

Current labeled frequency when there is brood in the hive is three treatments spaced seven days apart (every Monday for three consecutive Mondays, as an example.) Before it was approved it was four treatments, five days apart, according to the available folk-wisdom. I thought that was a better plan, but I follow label instructions, when possible. I am assuming you will be using SavoGran Wood bleach withe active ingredient being pure oxalic acid.

You need to monitor mite drop or sugar roll at the end to know if you need to continue for another treatment.

You need to check efficacy every time after the series, anyway.

Take the supers off, or block them with a plastic political sign if that's more convenient. I put a bee escape board on the evening before to drive the bees out of the supers, then slip the political sign above the bee escape,but under the supers, to avoid openeing the hive just before I treat.

OAV does* NOT contaminate or build up in the wax. That's the reason it can't kill mites below cappings, it just doesn't enter wax molecules. Bees clean the little residual crystals out of the hive themselves.

Please be sure to buy and use the correct personal protection gear: a respirator mask (half-face coverage, at least) with ACID GAS cartridges installed. Get the mask fit correct, according to the instructions that come with the mask and check the fit every single time. Wear goggles to protect your eyes.

Maybe you can persuade the other beek to treat as well, and get the mite issues mutually suppressed.

I have written at length on my techniques, so rather than repeat myself, please my previous posts for my own experience with OAV.

EDITED TO CORRECT ERROR: OAV does NOT contaminate wax, as well I know. Should not post when sleepy! Good catch, Larry, and thanks for setting it straight.*


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## beepro

Yes, you might want to consult with your nearby neighbors to
see how he or she treat their bees. If they are not treating and still
have bees then something is wrong with your bees. If they have the
resistant bees then maybe you can take some grafts from their hive too.
You can buy the OA on ebay, maybe amazon and at the local Ace Hardware store.
I use Ace since Lowes, HD and OSH don't carry them here. I don't use a mask since
my homemade oav gadget does not produce the toxic vapor like the current oav unit on
the market. Everything is inside the hive or should I say under the hive. Understanding the
mite cycle on the bees will help you to treat them better.


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## missybee

We started treating with OAV the hives are booming! Our first year of bees we treated, but not as well as we should, using hop guard. We did lose one hive to mites. 
We started treating with oav last year, still not doing it quite right (ie enough times in a season) This year doing better. 

I bought our oa from amazon, the vaporizer from SNL on site here. 

We do opening the brood nest with cut frames, which the bees nicely build out with drone comb, which we then cut out to reopen the brood nest. The last cut out drone check showed one mite in 6 groups of cut out drones comb chunks. I am sure I missed some, but pleased with what I saw. Last spring cut out drones showed a bunch of mites in each cut out comb chunk.


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## snl

beepro said:


> I don't use a mask since
> my homemade oav gadget does not produce the toxic vapor like the current oav unit on
> the market.


That's just wrong. If you're vaporizing OA (no matter how you're doing it) there are fumes and they are toxic. Why do you insist on telling others fallacies?


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## missybee

We mask up, glove up, protective clothing, the vapors cause lung edema, if bad enough tough to recover from. 

We watch which way the breeze blows the vapors and shift up wind even with masks on. Toss the gloves , nitrile, once done. 

No desire to end up in ICU


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## Mike Gillmore

Brad, Considering your hives are probably in aggressive spring build up I would recommend a one time treatment right now with Apivar strips. You will get daily mite killing results from the strips as bees continue to emerge with mites. 

OAV works extremely well, it's all I use now with great results. But the timing of treatments is very important. It's best to do a series when the hive has cut back on their brood rearing, such as in a late summer or fall dearth. And when they are in a near broodless state, as in the middle of winter. 

Right now you are going to need something that keeps killing mites on a daily basis for the next several weeks so you can get the mites cleaned up. I'm not saying OAV won't work, but other treatments might be much more effective "this time of year". Just a few things for you to consider.


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## clyderoad

Apivar needs to be in for 40 some days. That is right into and during honey flow.

wouldn't MAQS (formic) be a better choice than both oav or apivar given the time of year?


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## snl

enjambres said:


> OAV does contaminate or build up in the wax. That's the reason it can't kill mites below cappings, it just doesn't enter wax molecules. Bees clean the little residual crystals out of the hive themselves.


Nancy, I'm sure you meant to say that OA does _*NOT*_ contaminate or build up in the wax..........as it does not.


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## Mike Gillmore

clyderoad said:


> Apivar needs to be in for 40 some days. That is right into and during honey flow.
> 
> wouldn't MAQS (formic) be a better choice than both oav or apivar given the time of year?


That's a great point. I was not taking into consideration that he is in AL. Formic will penetrate the brood cappings and take care of those mites too.


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## Brad Bee

snl said:


> That's just wrong. If you're vaporizing OA (no matter how you're doing it) there are fumes and they are toxic. Why do you insist on telling others fallacies?


I think beepro lives in an alternate reality. The advice he/she offers sure seems to indicate that.


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## Brad Bee

Thanks for all the replies. Enj, Mike, snl and Clyde I'll keep reading and also will check into MAQS. I am completely ignorant on mite protocol right now but that will change soon. I thought, given the time of year that OAV might not be my best solution. 

I don't have SBB, so how do I do a mite drop count? Don't you have to put a sticky "board" under SBB to determine the mite drop?


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## schmism

Brad Bee said:


> I don't have SBB, so how do I do a mite drop count? Don't you have to put a sticky "board" under SBB to determine the mite drop?


Search on the site works well.

In short.

a half cup of bees (roughly 300) is placed in a mason type jar. You then either kill the bees with alcohol (or several other methods), wash them around and dump them out on a paper plate. count the dropped mites. If you dont want ot kill them a similar technique can be used with powdered sugar.

Thats the basic principal, there are many more details you can find in a more descriptive post of the process.

FYI











the hope is that with your preferred mite treatment is given at the start of the exponential curve (in summer) to severally limit the growth of the mites. Different treatment options have different timings but the overall affect should be the same goal.


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## Arnie

Brad, I am convinced that if you follow the schedule snl recommends.......3 or 4 treatments in spring one week apart (probably 4 if you have never treated and 3 after this year), then 4 at weekly intervals after you pull supers in late summer, and lastly, one after brood rearing has stopped for the winter (late November, December)..... you will not need a SBB. The SBB is a nice tool to have, but not absolutely necessary. 

I have one that I use to help monitor mite levels in addition to sugar rolls, etc. But if you have a good OAV tool and you do the treatments as instructed you should be just fine.


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## Brad Bee

Thanks for all the replies and thanks for the reassurance Arnie. That helps boost my confidence about how this will go.


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## Bear Creek Steve

schmism,

Can you tell us the source of the "figure one" in your previous post?

Steve


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## beepro

Well, there are many ways to deliver the oav into your hives.
It just so happens that I have found an alternative method to do so.
No lung issue so far. Again, my method is very different from any of the
currently available oav unit on the market. No electricity is required. 
Snl, if you're here I can demonstrate it to you. And yes, you and I don't
need to wear a mask either as it is safe for the 2 minutes burn time. Everything
is contain inside the hive and sealed off too. Snl, if you are o.k. with it I can upload more
vids (I have many) on you tube to really show my testing method and the how to build plan with pics
and my own support should any members here like to make one on BS. Rarely members here get to see how the
2 grams of oa powder is vaporized but I got the vid to show the entire burn process from powder to nothing on the
stainless steel dish. This will surely enlighten some of us here after seeing it. Like any other little bee experiment I am doing, I don't know the impact on the bee community and along with the oav unit on the market once this information is released. But for sure I know the mites are dead all over the country and afar too. If the you tube vid showing a foreign guy burning the mite strips under his hive can kill the mites then my homemade oav gadget is much more powerful than his method. I am happy to share it here if you are o.k. with it, Snl. Of course, safety first so I recommend you all to wear full protection during the entire process. For me I feel safe using it. I know what I'm doing after so many test runs already so you be the judge to see if this is really a reality or living in an alternative plane somewhere else. Koo-coo land is not for this experienced beekeeper! 
Then again, there are many good scientific inventions that are not by intention anyways, Penicillin for one, for example.
At 90% oav improvement it can still kills! I will leave the rest of the 10% to be completed by our members here. There is always room for more improvement, right. The 10% is not that hard to do once we find the right element. And it is just that simple. Oh, almost forgot to say the burn frequency recommended can be increased too with lower dosage using it. Sorry for the poor little mites once they come out of the cells not knowing what is going on. They don't even have the chance to go back into another cap cell again. Right now I am using my oav gadget to test out the bee's resistance to the mites.


Results after using my oav gadget so far:


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## schmism

Bear Creek Steve said:


> schmism,
> 
> Can you tell us the source of the "figure one" in your previous post?
> 
> Steve


http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fighting-varroa-reconnaissance-mite-sampling/


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## Matt F

beepro, are you saying that the vapors created by this new method are not toxic? Or that it's 100% safe and reliable because all the toxic vapors are contained inside the hive? If you're doing it without electricity, you're not heating the OA to vaporization and therefore not creating the vapor that's toxic to the mites...the gas that kills mites is the same gas that's toxic to humans. Good luck with that.


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## enjambres

@Beepro:

Since you keep referring to "burning" the OAV, and your device is not using electricity, I assume you mean burning, literally.

One of the risks of heating OA is that above certain temps it apparently releases formic acid (I can't explain the chemistry on this, but that's what I have read from reliable sources who do understand the chemistry.) Formic acid (the active ingredient in MAQS) while effective on mites also comes with a steeper risk profile for the bees, and also significant respiratory risks for humans.

Unless you have the technical knowledge, skills and training to do this with lab-grade safety, please do not assume it is perfectly OK to mess around with a home-brew method without using at least the same level of precautions one would use when doing a normal OAV treatment.

Better safe than sorry.

Enj.


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## shinbone

Obviously, oxalic acid vapor is dangerous and people should take whatever precautions they feel are necessary for their safety, and, further, use it (or not) however they deem best for their hives. I am going to be the odd-man out here in voicing my opinion. This is definitely not directed at any specific individuals:

I think some people are a little overwrought about OAV. While dangerous, the vapors are a powerful irritant, and the slightest whiff of OAV will instantly cause violent involuntary coughing spasms. There is no way a person can breath even a tiny tiny amount of OAV without immediately knowing it and running away to escape harm. When I apply OAV, I light my smoker as a wind indicator and stand upwind of the hive being treated. Super easy and 100% effective. I don't use it on a swirly-windy day. No gloves, no facemask, no protective clothing. Just common sense. A person who already has compromised lungs may do well to be extra careful.

Oxalic has been successfully used in Europe for decades. This use and use in North America has shown that OAV absolutely hammers the mites, doesn't hurt worker bees, has little-to-no impact on queens and brood, and is relatively dosage insensitive. It doesn't penetrate, build up in, or is retained in/by the comb. 

Those sounding the alarm about mites adapting to OAV are generally anti-chemical-anything people speaking in theoretics, and are most likely the same people who swore a beek would be arrested/fined by the federal government if they ever bought a vaporizer or had a cup of OA within a mile of their beehives. The reality is that OAV is a simple blunt-force instrument on mites, and no movement by mites towards adaptation has ever been observed, and no adaption mechanism has ever been identified or credibly proposed. This after decades of use.

But, be aware that while simple to use, the details of OAV use are critical, and the beek who doesn't OAV correctly will get poor results. The important parts of OAV is timing relative to brood production and making sure the OA it is not over heated during application. Both are easy to do by buying a decent vaporizer and following a few simple rules for application timing. You get these two things right, and mites will not be a problem in your hives.

I'll say it again; people can do whatever they want in regards to OAV, but, for me, OAV is so simple and so effective that its use has become an easy no-fuss solution to mites.

Again, JMHO.




.


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## StellaRose

If it matters to you, the last I heard Alabama hasn't approved OA as a mite treatment.


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## Brad Bee

Thanks for the info Stella but that won't change my decision.


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## StellaRose

Yeah, me either. But you might want to make sure that you don't go telling the wrong person what you're doing.


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## Arnie

shinbone said:


> Obviously,
> 
> Again, JMHO.
> 
> .


Excellent! :thumbsup:


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## Brad Bee

Would you believe that there isn't one container of Oxalic Acid in the town of 25000 people that I live closest to? Not one can of Wood Bleach anywhere. I had to order online.


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## Brad Bee

StellaRose said:


> Yeah, me either. But you might want to make sure that you don't go telling the wrong person what you're doing.


I've got a deep hole over in the woods in case a situation arises.


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## Brad Bee

I've read every link posted and thanks for the replies.

One question I haven't found the answer to: Is it best to treat early morning, or late evening, or even at night to make sure the foragers are in the hive?


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## snl

The best time to do OAV is when you have the time to do so. 
However mornings, evenings, cloudy days when most are in the hive is a fine time to treat.


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## Brad Bee

snl said:


> The best time to do OAV is when you have the time to do so.
> However mornings, evenings, cloudy days when most are in the hive is a fine time to treat.


I find that's the best time to do everything! 

I think I'll hit them early Thursday morning. OA is supposed to be delivered Wednesday and we have some cold weather forecast for Thursday morning, so none will be out flying with temps in the low 30's for morning lows.


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## snl

On temperature, you need temps of 37 or above for OA to vaporize properly.


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## Brad Bee

Thanks for the heads up. Guess I'll do it Wed evening then. It's probably best if they aren't clustered anyway.


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## woodedareas

Mike Gillmore said:


> Brad, Considering your hives are probably in aggressive spring build up I would recommend a one time treatment right now with Apivar strips. You will get daily mite killing results from the strips as bees continue to emerge with mites.
> 
> OAV works extremely well, it's all I use now with great results. But the timing of treatments is very important. It's best to do a series when the hive has cut back on their brood rearing, such as in a late summer or fall dearth. And when they are in a near broodless state, as in the middle of winter.
> 
> Right now you are going to need something that keeps killing mites on a daily basis for the next several weeks so you can get the mites cleaned up. I'm not saying OAV won't work, but other treatments might be much more effective "this time of year". Just a few things for you to consider.


I like this suggestion. Are you suggesting Apivar before any brood build up,such as right after a package is introduced, and then OA in the fall after the supers are removed?


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## JoshuaW

Brad,

You've gotten a lot of great advice here; I'm going to share my experience since I have no advice to give. 

I started out with tf bees but only 3 hives. Later in the summer I decided to do a mite wash with alcohol and found:
hive 1 handling mites fine.
Hive 2 on the verge of either needing a treatment or "seeing what would happen" (which we all know...);
on hive 3 I quit counting mites after 22, and that was about half the mites.

I made a split in August in time for the fall flow that built up nicely.

I treated with MAQS, all four, with a full dose.

I bought a Varrox in October and treated in mid-November/early December (4 times) and in mid-late January (3 times). 

Results:

All four hives are doing great: all four sailed through winter; they have solid brood patterns; there is a healthy, energetic vibrancy; and I just made strong splits over double-screen boards with mated queens. 

Good luck!!


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## Mike Gillmore

woodedareas said:


> I like this suggestion. Are you suggesting Apivar before any brood build up,such as right after a package is introduced, and then OA in the fall after the supers are removed?


Actually, Apivar or Formic would be best "during" the spring build up if the hive was not treated properly in the broodless winter period. Those methods effect the mites "under" the cappings, as well as phoretitc mites out in the hive on the bees. OAV only kills phoretic mites, none under cappings. 

OAV would work great after installing a package if you do it just before they begin capping any of the brood cells. That will knock down 95% of the mites, and there will be no mites under the cappings that would miss the treatment. They will all be phoretic at that point in time.

For me, the peak of mite population is in the fall dearth period when brood rearing has slowed down some, two or three weeks before Goldenrod starts blooming. That is the most important time for me to do a series of OAV treatments to keep the mites from doing too much damage to the bees.


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## beepro

Matt, all the vapor is contained inside the hive.
No vapor coming out of the hive for me to smell it. 
This is a safety feature that I have incorporated into
my oav gadget design. I have to admit on my first test run I had
breathe in a lot of them. A person with a healthy lung and no lung
diseases will recover fully. I thought it was going to be a permanent
lung damage issue but I did fully recovered. Lung is as good as before.
After that I did not inhale anymore oav because of the design improvement.
Yes, it is safe to use. Yes, the mites will die. Many beekeepers believe that the only
way is to use electricity for the oa unit but I have found another way. The mites still die
because I have used the right materials. Also, it is not the vapor or gas
that kills the mites but rather the white spiky crystals that were left behind from the
burning of the oa powder. But the vapor can damage your lungs. It will make you cough
your lungs out literally. 

Enj, I realise what you said here. About the temp. issue I have not measure it.
But doing many test runs to find the equilibrium so that the crystals can form without
harming the bees. At the same time allow enough time to burn the oa powder into the
crystal form. If this process does not work after the many test run I cannot claim that my
hives are growing now. I did took some pics of the mite drop the next day after the burn.
There are many dead mites on the bottom board. 

Shinbone has many good points that I agreed with. It is safe only when you know how to protect yourself. That will come with the experience on using it. 
To be safe it is best for beginners to use full protection. I'm sure you can stop inhaling temporarily and hold your breath to allow yourself enough time to run away from the scene. Make sure no grass or any other object is in your get away path. A clear flat land is better in this case. I have not gone to these extreme for my test run just in case you all are worry here. Control the mites and you will have bees. I did!
All of my oav gadget vids will be on you tube from now on with age restriction when they are sensitive. So sorry if you are not within age yet. Just to let you know there is more than one way to make an effective oav delivering device with safety features built in.


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## AHudd

How can you claim that no escaping vapor is a safety feature "incorporated" into your gadget. The vapors must go into a hive to kill mites, correct? How can you control the condition of other peoples hives? The V in OAV stands for vapor, correct? IMO, that's a pretty bold claim.
To tell someone they can recover from inhalation of OAV is dangerous advise.
I am agonizing about my decision to be chemical free. I don't want to use chemicals, but staying ahead of mites is difficult and a lot of work with a lot of combining and losses of weaker hives, but the hardest part is all of the reading and winnowing out the ludicrous claims many people make about how to control mites.
If I may make a suggestion. It has been over a year since you claimed to be almost finished with your OAV gadget. If you have met with a technical hurdle you can't overcome, why not enter into a partnership with someone who can finish it for you. I'm sure there would be many people willing to invest in a miracle cure for mites, but I'm sure they would need to see what you have done, so far. Or you could take the highest road and present it to the public and say, someone complete this, for the good of the bees.

Alex


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## snl

beepro said:


> A person with a healthy lung and no lung
> diseases will recover fully. I thought it was going to be a permanent
> lung damage issue but I did fully recovered. Lung is as good as before.
> No it is not, what OA vapors (small crystals your breathed in) will remain with you until they put you in the ground
> 
> After that I did not inhale anymore oav because of the design improvement.
> Yes, it is safe to use. Yes, the mites will die. Many beekeepers believe that the only
> way is to use electricity for the oa unit but I have found another way. The mites still die
> because I have used the right materials. Also, it is not the vapor or gas
> that kills the mites but rather the white spiky crystals that were left behind from the
> burning of the oa powder.
> That is just so wrong! It's the vapor (which is just really sublimed OA) that enter thru the pads on the mite's feet, that changes the PH of the mite killing them.
> The white, spiky crystals are the result of an incomplete burn of OA
> 
> But the vapor can damage your lungs. It will make you cough
> your lungs out literally.


My response are in red. BP, where oh where are you getting your information? I believe it is made up. I think you should go back to picking mites off bees with razor blades!


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## challenger

I am still boggled as to why people choose OAV over FA. I need to be educated I am sure. Please tell me why it is more appealing to use OAV over FA??? I use FA at 50% using meat pads. I don't get fumes and I am not risking exposure 3-4 times in order to kill mites. I get results in capped brood and use a single treatment. I don't have to have any special equipment either so please give me the score card. BTW I do know about the temperature limit for formic and this is a drawback to FA use for sure.
Thanks


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## beepro

No, I cannot control the condition of other people's hives but certainly I can
control my own. The vapor is not coming out because everything is sealed from the 
inside. Only a brand new hive will have the small crevices for the vapor to come out.
But it is not significant enough to do some lung damage. I admit I do not know enough
about the long term effect on my lung damage by inhaling the vapor. I am breathing normally
now and not have any contact with it because I don't want to get rid of the mites completely.
Compare to the people who work in a chemical lab and coughing now I am much better than
they are. I have read 2 version of the oav studies. One was the crystals that prevent the mites from
eating and the second one was what snl mentioned here. Either way the mites are dead once they're
in contact with the oav. If it is the vapor that killed the mites then my homemade oav gadget does the
trick. If it is the formic that killed the mites then at higher temperature setting I might get some of those
too. At the minimum I try to maintain a steady burn time enough to deliver the oav into the hive.
Mentioning about the technical difficulty I have encounter so far, it is correct. I have consulted with a 
chemist so far but he seems to not know what I'm talking about. Maybe I have asked the wrong person.
Though I have high confidence that it will be resolve soon. Thanks for mentioning a very important point 
about controlling other people's hive situation. That issue will also be resolved because I know exactly the 
right material to do that. Will do further testing for this issue on a standard langs hive. Looks like another good
you tube vid for us to see later on. Not a hard issue to resolve. I just wanted to cover everything before releasing 
my plan as we are dealing with a chemical here. Better be safe than sorry! Thanks for the feedback and education.


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## HillBilly2

Brad Bee said:


> Would you believe that there isn't one container of Oxalic Acid in the town of 25000 people that I live closest to? Not one can of Wood Bleach anywhere. I had to order online.


Lowes and Home Depot seemed to quit carrying it a year or two ago. I found some at an Ace Hardware, first one was out but ordered for stock, second one had it in shelf.


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## Bees of SC

Have you tried a paint store?


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## missybee

Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...ix=oxa,arts-crafts,156&rh=i:aps,k:oxalic+acid


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## BobL

Bees of SC said:


> Have you tried a paint store?


A paint store was the only place I could find it around here.


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## BadBeeKeeper

snl said:


> My response are in red. BP, where oh where are you getting your information? I believe it is made up. I think you should go back to picking mites off bees with razor blades!


When I first joined the forum, it didn't take me long to figure out that this "beepro" is not a 'pro' at all. Up to now I have just been ignoring most of the flaky stuff posted...but this is getting to a point where the flaky stuff could actually hurt someone who pays attention to it, not realizing that this person is clueless and dispensing bad info while representing him/herself as a 'pro'.

Vaporizing acid with no safety gear? Just "run away"?

Insanity. Hives are not airtight. If one is vaporizing OA during a temperature inversion, clouds of it are going to be just hanging hanging around.

His/her posts should come with a safety warning.


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## missybee

We wear masks, gloves, paint coveralls, or the bee suits. 

The vapor can cause lung edema, if bad enough you will not recover. 

"msds
Potential Acute Health Effects:
Very hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Hazardous in case of skin
contact (permeator), of eye contact (corrosive). Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (corrosive). The amount of tissue
damage depends on length of contact. Eye contact can result in corneal damage or blindness. Skin contact can produce
inflammation and blistering. Inhalation of dust will produce irritation to gastro-intestinal or respiratory tract, characterized by
burning, sneezing and coughing. Severe over-exposure can produce lung damage, choking, unconsciousness or death.
Inflammation of the eye is characterized by redness, watering, and itching. Skin inflammation is characterized by itching,
scaling, reddening, or, occasionally, blistering."


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## Brad Bee

Bees of SC said:


> Have you tried a paint store?


I tried Ace and True Value hardware stores, 2 large local lumber stores with paint departments, Lowe's, Sherwin Williams and a Bejamin Moore paint store. NO-body had it.


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## Brad Bee

missybee said:


> Amazon
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...ix=oxa,arts-crafts,156&rh=i:aps,k:oxalic+acid


I wish I had seen that link before buying from the place I bought from on Amazon


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## Bear Creek Steve

Brad Bee,

Google or Amazon search for it and you will find it. Probably in larger quantity and lesser price.

Steve


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## Bees of SC

When you go in the paint store ask for wood bleach, wood bleach is the same stuff..


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## beepro

Don't worry about the small gaps on the hive leaking out the oav as this is a small 
issue already resolved. I got a solution to it since last December. It will be safe for
the beekeeper to use. Thanks for mentioning this to me. Also, during my test runs as
soon as the burning stop so does the oav; it just clear up in about 1 minute and never
hang around. Besides, you are not there inside the hive and only hang around on the outside.
So no potential side effects. If you are so worry about the small gaps and oav escaping to the
outside then put a round of the silver duct tape on the perimeter of the hive. Hop over to the
other thread to see the bee pics so far as we are still in our early Spring expansion mode at
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?322980-Overwintering-Varroa


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## Brad Bee

I haven't looked back through the thread to see if someone else is looking for OA, but I asked for wood bleach, and not one store had any. I ordered some from amazon and got it in earlier in the week. I'm going to do the OAV today.


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## woodedareas

missybee said:


> We wear masks, gloves, paint coveralls, or the bee suits.
> 
> The vapor can cause lung edema, if bad enough you will not recover.
> 
> "msds
> Potential Acute Health Effects:
> Very hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Hazardous in case of skin
> contact (permeator), of eye contact (corrosive). Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (corrosive). The amount of tissue
> damage depends on length of contact. Eye contact can result in corneal damage or blindness. Skin contact can produce
> inflammation and blistering. Inhalation of dust will produce irritation to gastro-intestinal or respiratory tract, characterized by
> burning, sneezing and coughing. Severe over-exposure can produce lung damage, choking, unconsciousness or death.
> Inflammation of the eye is characterized by redness, watering, and itching. Skin inflammation is characterized by itching,
> scaling, reddening, or, occasionally, blistering."


Missybee said all that needs to be said. Pick your poison.


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## DrJeseuss

Regarding OA source, I couldn't find it under any name around here, short of a chemical supplier, but without a license they were no help. I got mine off ebay, and got a 5 lb bag for CHEAP. I'll likely never run out, unless I really go big on hive counts.

For the mask, what level is needed? P95? N95?


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## Bear Creek Steve

DrJeseuss,

Do a search for posts by "enjambres" who has spelled all that out in great detail.


Steve


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## AHudd

Try this link; http://www.idealtruevalue.com/store...eed=Froogle&gclid=CPSQ9-fNh8wCFZCIaQodDzQLQg; 

Alex


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## Brad Bee

After threatening since Saturday I finally did the treatments today. First I added an aluminum handle with rubber grip to the Varrox, and added a 25 foot cord to it so I wouldn't have to carry a battery around. It has been raining lightly all afternoon so I took advantage of most of the field bees being home to use the OA. I guess it worked as it should. I didn't use any special precautions, not because I have a gizmo like beepro claims to have but because I parked my truck upwind and sat inside it, out of the rain while the OA was vaporizing. I timed a 3 minute vape on the hives that I treated and I started seeing smoke on each hive just after the 1 minute mark. I used a wet towel to close off the entrances and left them in place for 10 minutes. I did learn that sometimes bees will come boiling out of the entrance and chase the beekeeper when the towel is removed.


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## AHudd

And here is a link for lab grade OA. http://www.sciencecompany.com/Oxalic-Acid-500g-P6371C670.aspx

Alex


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## missybee

DrJeseuss said:


> For the mask, what level is needed? P95? N95?


This is the one I was told to get, works great. We have oav'd our hives since last summer, no issues with the fumes. 

Lowes/home depot model 3M 6211 paint respirator


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## snl

Brad Bee said:


> I did learn that sometimes bees will come boiling out of the entrance and chase the beekeeper when the towel is removed.


That's in very fine print at the bottom of the instruction sheet...........:lookout:


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## Brad Bee

snl, they take any chance they get to light me up.


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## DrJeseuss

missybee said:


> This is the one I was told to get, works great. We have oav'd our hives since last summer, no issues with the fumes.
> 
> Lowes/home depot model 3M 6211 paint respirator


That one is a P95. Thanks for the info!


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## snl

DrJeseuss said:


> That one is a P95. Thanks for the info!



No, that is particulate only, you need one that is rated for acid gas vapors. There are too many to list, but it will state on the package what's the rating.


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## beepro

Yes, it is correct to use the right gas mask only.
Using the wrong one will give you lung damage for sure while
you're thinking you can breathe on it.
I sealed off all gaps and on older hives there is not gaps all propolised in.
Next time try using a soft sponge to seal the entrance. It is better than a towel.
I cut mine to fit and no gas can escape when the bee's wings carry the oav upward while
they're fanning. Also, you don't need to wait for another 10 minutes afterward using my oav gadget.
On my test vids I observed that as soon as the burner was off so is the vapor going into the hive.
That is why it only took 2 minutes to treat one hive then transition on to the next one. I got many
vids to take the oav mystery out for once. Beekeepers can learn a lot and no longer be afraid of this
process anymore once Snl and others are fine with me releasing these vids on you tube. I already learned a lot!


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## snl

BP,
You've been talking about this OAV gadget for over a year and we've yet to see anything other than "blowing smoke."


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## Michael Bush

>I am still boggled as to why people choose OAV over FA. I need to be educated I am sure.

I'm using neither, but the appeal of OAV over FA is that you control the vaporization and therefore the dosage of the OAV. The ambient temperature controls the vaporization and therefore the FA. FA has been shown to kill queens. I have not heard any reports on OAV causing lost queens. I can't see using a treatment where you have no control over the dosage.


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## snl

Michael Bush said:


> >I am still boggled as to why people choose OAV over FA. I need to be educated I am sure.
> 
> I'm using neither, but the appeal of OAV over FA is that you control the vaporization and therefore the dosage of the OAV.


That........ and there is the appeal of not having to worry about temperature and with OAV, no need to open the hive to treat. No removal of brood and supers, just insert and follow instructions ....


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## AHudd

snl said:


> That........ and there is the appeal of not having to worry about temperature and with OAV, no need to open the hive to treat. No removal of brood and supers, just insert and follow instructions ....


No removal of supers????

Alex


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## snl

AHudd said:


> No removal of supers???? Alex


You're not treating when supers are on eh?


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## AHudd

I'm not treating at all, so far. 
I have always read to not treat when supers are on. Is this incorrect?

Alex


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## beepro

Yes, it is correct that you need to removed the
supers before the treatment. It is recommended.
MB, in my case the oa powder is under control and has
the right amount although it doesn't matter under the 2 minutes
burn time. I use it because I have read that it will not kill the queen and
to test out my oav gadget under the hive. Done a lot of test runs with vids before using it on my hives.
Snl, by saying this you are o.k. with me to release my oav plan and vids, eh? 
You don't mind if I give out a few sample units for members here to try also? I'm not
responsible for any affect on your oav unit afterward. This time it is not only
"blowing smoke" but real oa vapor into the hive.


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## sakhoney

Beepro - a link to the videos please - I would like to see it in action


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## Brad Bee

sakhoney said:


> Beepro - a link to the videos please - I would like to see it in action


My suggestion, don't hold your breath waiting on the videos of this "gadget"


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## snl

AHudd said:


> I have always read to not treat when supers are on. Is this incorrect?
> 
> Alex


That is what the EPA states.


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## snl

beepro said:


> Snl, by saying this you are o.k. with me to release my oav plan and vids, eh?
> You don't mind if I give out a few sample units for members here to try also? I'm not
> responsible for any affect on your oav unit afterward. This time it is not only
> "blowing smoke" but real oa vapor into the hive.


BP, do what you wish. You've been promising that unit/gadget for years. Your vids show nothing. Then we have to hear about you not wanting kids to see it!! How you pick mites off bees with a razorblade...Really ??? How do you even know it vaporizes OA and not converting it to formic and carbon monoxide?


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## beepro

It is very simple.
This year I have growing colonies instead of the mite infested
hives like that of last year after the late Autumn treatment. And after the
treatment I do a hive check the next day to see how many dead mites are in there.
Also the white ghostly covered bees will show me that they have the oa crystals on.
I have run many test trials to see the carbon monoxide and probably with some formic too.
This was to see how to adjust the burner for the maximum amount of oav released into the hive.
Besides, this is BS with many well advised members. They will let me know alright when my oav
gadget does not delivered as expected. The you tube vid only showed the oav going into the hive.
Sakhoney, are you able to see you tube vid?


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## Brad Bee

I thought you were going to post the video of your OAV "gadget" for the world to see? Well those of us 18 and older.


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## beepro

I have since thought of several ways to improve on my oav gadget today.
Because it is a never ending improvement to make it better each time, it
is hard to release the vid until I can fine tune it further. With each new revision
I find ways to make it more economical and efficient. Members here requested to
use the materials they have which is more universal for all to make.


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## snl

beepro said:


> I have since thought of several ways to improve on my oav gadget today.
> Because it is a never ending improvement to make it better each time, it
> is hard to release the vid until I can fine tune it further. With each new revision
> I find ways to make it more economical and efficient. Members here requested to
> use the materials they have which is more universal for all to make.


Same ole, same ole, BS....


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## sakhoney

Well guys - I guess you were right - I still haven't a link to see this wonderful invention. Beepro my ***


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## beepro

Snl, that is the creativity of this invention. Isn't it amazing that once you
found what you think is a good material source and suddenly another idea
came up to replaced it. A never ending improvement process on my part. 
Hey, it is cheap and simple to make for a reason alright. 
Sak, there is a search button on the upper right hand corner at the top of the page. 
It is there to help new BS members to find what they want. Try to put in "oav gadget" or 
my homemade oav gadget and then hit the hourglass search button next to it. 
Maybe you will find the you tube link there as I don't want to bored Snl and others with the many posts over the year already. Of course, you can always PM me for the link if you want to. And it is rated for 18 and over not for the little
kids lurking around BS here. Mainly it is there to protect the kids because messing with this chemical without the know how or protection can cause lung damage at the most.


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## snl

BP,
I for one have lost faith entirely in your posts. You have come up with excuse after excuse regarding your OAV "gadget." Removing mites with razor blades? Your posts are downright ....... silly.......... You are now on my ignore list.


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## beepro

O.k. then. But when you are ready to not ignore me please
let me know also. It is a courtesy alright. I have not done much to
offend you, have I? If I have then take this as an apology. Patience is a virtue, you know.
Excuses or not this is my own invention. I have an obligation and responsibility to perfect my
oav gadget before releasing it to the public. R & D takes time if you know what I mean. The last
thing I wanted is for members here to say it does not work because of materials issue or it will caused lung damage or something. We all know how creative our members here when it comes to changing the process. 
When you got one to share then the details are important as this is a potential hazardous chemical we are
using now. Until I'm absolutely sure to cover everything I will withhold this plan information. Excuses or not this
is my call.


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