# definition of "survivor bees"



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

The term "survivors" when applied to a colony no doubt has many interpretations, I have used it myself in the past to label some of my hives, but lately I have begun to question whether there is such a thing at all. If you feel there is reason to call a colony a "survivor" what characteristics are present that differentiate it from any other colony that exists for several seasons at least. John


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

jmgi said:


> The term "survivors" when applied to a colony no doubt has many interpretations, I have used it myself in the past to label some of my hives, but lately I have begun to question whether there is such a thing at all. If you feel there is reason to call a colony a "survivor" what characteristics are present that differentiate it from any other colony that exists for several seasons at least. John


Good point John. Once your first hive dies then all others are, well, survivors....right? To me a "survivor" is a hive that survives what our operation and the weather put it through in any given time frame.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

another good question john.

for me, 'survivor' means an unmanaged feral colony that propagates swarms year after year, and doesn't die out. some folks question whether or bees surviving in the wild on their own exist. granted, it would be hard to find and regularly observe these wild hives to verify they did not die out and weren't just replaced with swarms. i believe they are out there in my area.


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## Scott Klein (Sep 13, 2012)

Em... A queen that has not been allowed to issue a swarm, that overwinters, lays a solid brood pattern for at least two to three years is a 'survivor' for the local area.

I have had very productive queen who swarmed high in the fifth season and got away, but other three or more year colonies reside in the same apiary. That fiver produced splits and her daughters mated with drones from other survivor stock to a frequency that I can accept as 'survivor stock'.

FYI: Starting stocks are from the entire range of sources (mail order, cut-outs, swarms, etc.), approaching 20 hives, 9th year, not a breeder, but have sold some splits.


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## SippyBees (Feb 17, 2004)

For the average hobby beek... how often do you replace a queen? Is it based only only laying patterns... after a specific time ( 2 years is what most that I knew replaced after )... I have not heard of people keeping queens for many years.. but is this common? 
Thanks


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## oldforte (Jul 17, 2009)

WCubed can give a good answer to the question


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Good question. Here is what I look for in a breeder queen: 
Productivity- Can the hive produce surplus of all three; honey, bees, and Pollen? Don't settle for just one.

Mite tolerance- Can the queen make 2 winters or more without a acaricide and remain productive?

Hygienic behavior- Can the colony achieve a 100% clean out on freeze killed brood test on at least two occasions?

Early build up- Can the colony easily make the grade for early pollinations like almonds? We must pollinate to get the bills paid so they have to be suitable to the task.

If I can answers yes to all 4 criteria then I would suggest that the bees in question would fall into the category of "survivor bees". Some may take umbrage with managed bees even being considered, however we need bees that are stable and sustainable enough to pay the bills. We always welcome some ferals to participate in the challenge every year.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good point john, it might be argued that managed bees have to be even 'tougher' than wild bees.


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## stan.vick (Dec 19, 2010)

squarepeg said:


> another good question john.
> 
> for me, 'survivor' means an unmanaged feral colony that propagates swarms year after year, and doesn't die out. some folks question whether or bees surviving in the wild on their own exist. granted, it would be hard to find and regularly observe these wild hives to verify they did not die out and weren't just replaced with swarms. i believe they are out there in my area.


 I agree, and in my area I am convinced, because I am in an area that has only one other beek, and he has Italians, yet there are large black drones that visit my hives, and I have caught a couple of swarms of dark bees. The queens from these behave like dark bees, they cut back production of brood in the winter and winter with smaller numbers of bees. They also go to work well below 57 degrees. Back in the eighties an outfit out of Jesup Ga. kept a large number of Midnight ( or Midnite ) bees nearby. These were dark bees, I am working to develope a bee that will work at lower temps and exspand the brood-nest in mid winter. I firmly believe these bees have survived in the wild for over twenty years.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Do they have to live "in the wild" to be feral? And, if they are not "managed" but still make their home in a lang, given the criteria, are they not survivors? There are those that do nothing but add supers then take the honey. My friend and I have two hives that are basically yard ornaments. He at least takes some honey. I have not. Started this two seasons ago, third coming. Probably have swarmed. They are strong vigorous hives. No treatments. ( reason we did it ) I guess some might say they are just un managed, we are lucky so far,,,, maybe  
I have one queen that if she makes it this winter, this spring will be her fourth season. I put her in a nuc early each year and let the hive make a new queen. I do not routinely re queen. JMO.
2 cents 
Rick


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

Good article about the subject in *Bee Culture*, Nov. 2012,_ Father Time Tested Mother Nature Approved_, by Melanie Kirby

"_Dr. Marla Spivak in her *Keeping Bees in Northern Climates *workshop states that it takes 18 months for Varroa to infiltrate and kill a hive. It is therefore plausible that survivor bees must be able to overcome that threshold--meaning survive past 18 months._"

"_the minimum age for establishing any lineage of survivor stock should be at least 18 months and I recommend even older- at minimum two years of age. This passage of time not only reflects the ability of a ccolony to deal with Varroa, but also its ability to establish its Overall Lifetime Merit, the OLT as I call it, which tells how well a colony holds up to other various pests and diseases, maintains gentleness and productivity._"

The OLT is her naming of a "pedigree" system with longevity being one of her selection criteria. No doubt, time is a factor. "Survivor bees" have no connotation or association with their source such as "feral". The article also goes on to stress "local" and the reality that a survivor bee in the Northwest isn't going to necessarily be successful in say Michigan or Maine, but there is merit to the idea of regional sharing or breeding among know survivor stock. How colonies deal with dearth and other stresses are discussed. Taking the nature of the criteria being discussed and the "survivor" trait, standard management practices such as feeding would have to be called into question and a more "holistic" approach would need to be taken to determine "survivor stock".

"_This holistic approach relies on quality nutrition. And quality nutrition relies on the environment. The main requirement of nutrition is diversity and saturation, but, another crucial aspect of nutrition is dearth and compromise._"

Basically, the factor being stressed here is the ability of the hive to handle the dearth periods through brood minimization which gives the mites less opportunity at reproduction. Also the "frugality" of the bees would be important here. Again, surviving over time seems to be the critical factor (yes, productivity and gentleness are also criteria) with source ("feral" vs commercially bred) being of no importance. An interesting take with some very concrete methods/criteria on the whole "survivor bee" topic.


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## Scott Klein (Sep 13, 2012)

Nature Coast beek said:


> Good article about the subject in *Bee Culture*, Nov. 2012,_ Father Time Tested Mother Nature Approved_, by Melanie Kirby


Melanie is the only breeder that I know of that monitors for longevity. It seems like an important trait to me.


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## SippyBees (Feb 17, 2004)

Very good info here for me... am still formulating some deeper questions about the matter and will ask later... but just quickly... as for longevity.. 18 months.. etc... This may be important to smaller beeks.. or hobby beeks... but I was always taught to believe that Commercial beeks routinely requeen every 2 years. They don't usually have the time to do extensive evaluations on each and every hive when they are running 1000-10,000 hives... so they just requeen every other year. Obviously if 18 months is the time for Varroa to kill a hive... production will decrease far earlier than the hive death... but do commercial beeks really care if the hive/queen is going to last 2+ years? As a production queen breeder I think you would definately WANT to maintain the oldest surviving stock you have to try and maintain that genetic trait... and you would breed production queens from them.... but is a commercial beek going to watch his queens for 2+ years to see how they survive? I don't know... and that is why I am asking.... what does a commercial beek want in a production queen that they buy? How much intervention can a queen producer do to a hive before he really can't make the survivor claim? According to Dr. Spivak.. even feeding your bees would automatically deduct from your ability to make a survivor claim. So... what do commercial beeks who buy 1000's of queens expect or want? 
Thanks


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Scott Klein said:


> Melanie is the only breeder that I know of that monitors for longevity. It seems like an important trait to me.


We also monitor for longevity.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Sippy: "According to Dr. Spivak.. even feeding your bees would automatically deduct from your ability to make a survivor claim."

Are sure about that? That is not my interpretation, but I may be wrong here

Kirby: "This holistic approach relies on quality nutrition. And quality nutrition relies on the environment. The main requirement of nutrition is diversity and saturation, but, another crucial aspect of nutrition is dearth and compromise."

Nutrition is a key component in good animal husbandry. To not supply it, survivor bees or not, is simply asking for trouble.


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

@SippyBees

Here in Florida, the BMP (Best Management Practices) for ALL registered beeks (commercial included) is to re-queen every 6 months unless queens are marked or wings clipped. Even the specified (voluntary) plan for queen breeders is: 

"_11. Recommend re-queening with European stock every six months using marked or clipped queens or 
produce a bill of sale from a EHB Queen Producer._" -- General Information & Best Management Practices section: http://www.freshfromflorida.com/pi/plantinsp/apiary/apiary.html

With this voluntary state BMP, producing "survivor bees" would be even more challenging. As far as commercial beeks, I'm not one nor do I personally know any, but you have to realize that most of them are on a production model and the extensive use of prophylactic treatments seems to be standard operating procedure. This is one of the biggest hurdles to the system from what I can see-- the proverbial treadmill. I think that the scope of "survivor bees", at least right now, is geared more towards the hobby beekeeper and maybe sideliner. Disabusing large production commercial beekeeping operations of their current practices wouldn't be a goal of a "survivor bee" program, at least at current stages from what I have read/learned.


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## Scott Klein (Sep 13, 2012)

JBJ said:


> We also monitor for longevity.


Excellent! 

Sippy, This is a brood pattern from a third season queen... a keeper, IMO.
http://www.isabees.com/gallery_honeybee_brood.html


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## SippyBees (Feb 17, 2004)

To JBJ.. Am only taking the description of "survivor" to the extreme.. meaning, ANY intervention a beek gives to his bees.. even feeding... could reduce the strength of your claim they are survivors. Had you not fed them MAYBE they would not have survived. And I used feeding only because of the quotes Nature Coast posted before from Spivak
"Taking the nature of the criteria being discussed and the "survivor" trait, standard management practices such as feeding would have to be called into question and a more "holistic" approach would need to be taken to determine "survivor stock".
REGARDLESS of what may eventually come to be defined as "survivor" bees... I will try to help my bees to not only survive but to thrive also... WITHOUT the use of poisons/pesticides/or any thing that could eventually hurt a person. I am still not sure if I will use softer treatment such as FGMO or the likes.... but if I DID treat them with ANYTHING to help them.. can I still say my bees are survivors? Honestly?

To Nature Coast.. Thank you also for the info you share.... is kind of what I was asking. Although survivor bees may be stronger from the beginning... can maintain production longer... better winter survival traits.. etc etc... as far as I know... a commercial Beek is not going to care if that Queen is still producing in year 3 or 4 years. Have never heard of requeening every 6 months though. Because the BMP quote you write INCLUDES the term EHB stock... I am wondering if this recommendation is to prevent propogation of AHB bees.. since you are in Florida. 
AHB has been found in Mississippi... and is only a mater of time before I myself have them to seriously consider. It is my plan to get formal training to II my queens... to guarantee my stock. Maybe the weather advantage that southern queen producers have had forever will eventually be matched by the northern queen breeders ability to maintain stocks free of AHB genes... that southern breeders will eventually need and want. 
It seems to me there are no CLEAR and absolute definitions.. or ways to measure.. what we normally see being called survivor bees. I was surprised after 5 years to find even 6 hives still alive here.. especially after SHB... MANY of my dead boxes I saw evidence of SHB that killed them. I will be doing some of the prescribed tests on my "survivors" this summer to see if they show any REAL kinds of behaviors.... or to see if I just got lucky. Is many breeders out there selling queens..... so WHO really has the best queen? I will buy them... I just want to know they are REALLY what they are claimed to be. And if I ever did sell a queen... I would want to know as BEST i could that what I am claiming is also true.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

Curious, but if you take off the honey crop in the fall, and then come spring, noticed the hive has a nice cluster but was is in danger of running out of stores. If you feed that hive either syrup or surplus honey, is the hive, colony, still considered survivor stock???


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## SippyBees (Feb 17, 2004)

Personally.. I would not take feeding.. or any other kinds of management of a beehive to take away from the idea that they are survivors... but that is just ME. I was just wondering what the consensus was among all other beeks. Maybe feeding could be considered an artificial intervention... but to me... I think we ALL just want to get off the pesticide treadmill if at all possible. I have much respect for the people who started to go chemical free 10+ years ago when most people just used whatever kept their bees alive. Those first survivor breeders/ experimenters probably took HUGE losses in bees and financial losses.... but today.... maybe they have found something that we can all really believe in now... SURVIVOR bees.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

As to the question on commericial queen replacement - we replace our queens no later in the 2nd year although a great deal of that comes directly from 2 queen units which get a new queen in the top unit (on top of what might be a 2nd year queen or a 1st year queen) and after 23days are combined. My observations and study tell me the young queen usually survives. I do care about hive longevitiy and I think most commercial guys would, even though they could use nucs and purchased queens to replace losses every year. Being commericial does not reduce our need for better stock.
As to survivor stock, we have run a yard of untreated bees for many years in working towards better stock. I would consider those my survivor stock and everything else at least has some of those traits bred in as well. I would agree with Marla's concept of a hive which survives for at least 18 months as a minimum benchmark but a any treatment would nix the label of survivor stock. I get calls all the time about bees that are "survivor" stock because they are in a location for years but most when investigated show evidence of "breaks" in brood comb telling me likely it is a hive which was repopulated annualy by swarms. I look for those little dark bees (maybe the little is evidence of small cell) which normally seem to have smaller but somewhat aggressive stock and are visibly different from the norm. Those in the wild, with anecdotal support, I would call survivor stock.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Sippy, I don't think the extreme is helpful here. If one is going to go that far then even moving them to a flow or putting them in a box would disqualify. Once the beekeeper is involved in any way we are no longer talking about wild animals, which simply survive on their own. Its one thing for a hive to just survive, its another thing all together to prosper. 

We may all have slightly different definitions of what survivor bees are. Some may expect that to mean wild and completely untended with no role for a beekeeper period. Since we proclaim to be beekeepers this extreme is a moot point. We have a responsibility to shepard our flock. To me this means supply the best nutrition possible when necessary and seek a genetic basis of disease resistance as our front line of defense.


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

The BMP for Florida, no doubt, is targeting the AHB issue. Avoiding the the usurping of colonies by AHB seems to be almost obsessive (my interpretation) in the suggested BMP. Again, the BMP that I posted is for Florida, from the official apiary inspection site and is totally VOLUNTARY.

As JBJ mentions, the issue of feeding (within the article I quoted from and my comprehension of that article) is a bit fuzzy. Like JBJ stated, good stewardship/husbandry would involve some feeding. Spivak and the article author do no come out against feeding outright, but they DO STRESS that what is fed is what matters. 

"_Professor Maleszka from the Australian National University conducted some profound research on the integration of environmental and genomic signals in honey bees and the critical interplay of nutritional, brain and reproductive networks._"

Maleszka's research showed how DNA expression is linked via diet. My interpretation (reading between the lines) is the whole HFCS issue. The whole notion of the "you are what you eat" is very much alive. Now, what is acceptable and at what level is never really addressed. Only proper nutrition and its importance is emphasized. Just as what the original poster to this thread asks...what exactly is meant or specified through "survivor bee" is not really clear cut. What is clear cut from the referenced article which includes Dr. Spivak's thoughts and philosophy is that "survivor" does NECESSARILY mean a length of time. That length of time being AT LEAST 18 months, with two years being even better (Spivak). What is NOT mentioned as a quality of "survivor bee" is origin. So, in my interpretation, commercially raised queens most certainly WOULD qualify as "survivors".

Again, these are the ideas being bandied about in the referenced article,(_ Father Time Tested Mother Nature Approved _ in November 2012, Bee Culture) which does contain contributing thoughts from Dr. Spivak as well as information from the case study _Rocky Mountain Survivor Queenbee Cooperative_ (RMSQB Cooperative) which was funded in part by a Western Agriculture Research Education grant. The RMSQB is currently establishing a survivor stock pedigree protocol for selection and rearing based upon remaining chemical-free. Their manual is being written and won't be available until next year (2014).


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

SippyBees said:


> Personally.. I would not take feeding.. or any other kinds of management of a beehive to take away from the idea that they are survivors... I think we ALL just want to get off the pesticide treadmill if at all possible. I have much respect for the people who started to go chemical free 10+ years ago...Those first survivor breeders/ experimenters probably took HUGE losses in bees and financial losses....


Daniel Weaver of BeeWeaver discusses their experience...much respect! BTW he also quotes conferring with Dr. Spivak as well as the Baton Rouge Bee Lab in the BeeWeaver program. 

"Will you still be in business by the time you get there? We lost 1000's of colonies in our efforts." --Daniel Weaver

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQhwc3Rt-g0


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## SippyBees (Feb 17, 2004)

JBJ... I wasn't advocating that feeding would remove the "survivor" claim... was just stating what Spivak was implying... that ANY intervention would ultimately lower the strength of a survivor claim... as I said.. that is not MY opinion, and I will feed bees. The whole point is basically... as we have all asked... IS there a definitive measure of what is a Survivor bee? Should we all USE that definition as the standard of accepting survivor bee claims when we are purchasing queens? IS the survivor traits going to really make a difference in first year production queens we rear from survivor colonies? Are there traits that survivor bees are demonstrating that are already being genetically implemented in other bees like VSH? 
I just see lots of claims for this and that... but nothing really specific that measures any of the claims... EXCEPT maybe longevity. And if Longevity is the only thing we are really measuring.... then the definition gets simpler. 
I am not trying to argue with anyone what is or isn't.... I just hope enough people will add here their own opinions here to get a general consensus of what is expected.... Hopefully more commercial guys will add what they expect also....


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

For a hive to express a trait has a whole unit not every bee has to carry the trait. Look at the characteristics of Hyg behavior, VSH, and aggressiveness as examples. So I would say yes there should be some benefit to first year production queens. From Harbo's page: "A most valuable feature of VSH is that bees will express a high level of mite resistance when a colony contains as little as 50% of the alleles for VSH. A simple way to produce such a colony is to raise daughter queens from a VSH breeder and allow the daughters to naturally mate. This is great news for queen producers."

I think the survivor criteria I listed earlier would be useful for commercial or hobbyist. Who has been doing survivor stock the longest? Well the first I heard of it was in the late 90's from John Kefuss and Kirk Webster. Next came Old Sol and Weaver. There are many more players now and lots of claims being made. Good queens speak for themselves.


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## SippyBees (Feb 17, 2004)

Thanks Nature Coast... excellent link for BeeWeaver... I completely believe everything he said.... and it is guys like THEM (there are others) that went out on a limb years ago and we are now finding that what they hoped for is possible. At this time for me.... and my opinion is subject to change in the future.... I would accept the term survivor for bees that have demonstrated 2 years and still productive, with no PESTICIDE treatment of the bees. Soft treatments such as FGMO or OA... or whatever... doesn't seem to affect the bees health or future genetics....and in my opinion should not take away from their qualification as survivors. JMO... and THAT is subject to change.. 
I first read about Purvis about 6 or 7 years ago and wanted to get some of those to try then.. but didn't. I know he is limiting his production now.. and they aren't cheap... but I think I am going to try some of them this year if I can get on his list... 
I think sharing honest results from many different breeders/ queens will help all of us.... and I will do the same.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

Seems like to me you have to start counting time over for a hive every time it gets a new queen. 

I've got trees I will be catching swarms out of going on for the 3rd year, but I don't consider them survivors because they swarm and replace their queen every year, in effect starting over. The bees I will be catching this spring at best are the granddaughters and have only 1/4 of the genetics of the swarm I caught from the same tree just 2 years ago. 


Don


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

So what happens "in the wild"? Mother queen leaves with swarm,,,,,if she is not superceded, makes it through winter, she will be the queen that leaves with the next swarm. Makes it through winter and does it again. I don't have any data or references, but seems like that would be something. Seems it would be tough to even know.
Rick


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## Scott Klein (Sep 13, 2012)

Rick 1456 said:


> So what happens "in the wild"? Mother queen leaves with swarm,,,,,if she is not superceded, makes it through winter, she will be the queen that leaves with the next swarm. Makes it through winter and does it again. I don't have any data or references, but seems like that would be something. Seems it would be tough to even know.
> Rick


True, thus marking a queen and splitting to prevent a prime swarm is required to keep track of that surviving queen... if I'm following your question.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

SippyBees said:


> , with no PESTICIDE treatment of the bees. Soft treatments such as FGMO or OA... or whatever... doesn't seem to affect the bees health or future genetics....and in my opinion should not take away from their qualification as survivors.


Hey Sippy - no treatments means no treatments - US Beekeepers especially need to avoid putting unapproved substances (like OA) in hives. Gives beekeepers a bad rap and makes honey purity suspect. I'm with the extreme organic folks on this - a constructed copy of a naturally occurring substance in my book gives up any claim it has to being natural. Heck, I don't like putting lime in my garden and that is "just" ground up rock! [And for the record, I'm not proud of it but I have and will probably again used Formic Acid (both Mite-Away II and MAQS) and Thymol based products when the mite counts in some of my hives was high]


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Hey Scott,
More of something to ponder than a want to know. I also wonder if there should not be a distinction between Survivors in an apiary vs those in the wild for that reason. (marking wild queens). If I were buying queens, nucs, or whatever, I would want know. JMHO  
Rick


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

From what I've read and gleaned from the whole "survivor bee" subject, treatment-free also seems to be a critical criteria. In regards to queen survival/longevity, it's not clear whether or not they're (they being Spivak and crew) are being specific in regards to colony survival or queen & colony survival. On the surface I would think any intensive research would most certainly have marked queens which are being evaluated and, to me, longevity in the queen stock would matter. Again, RMSQB protocols/criteria are being worked on for publication in 1/2014. So the effort to define and outline protocols to determine just what "survivor" means is underway.

So "survivor" traits/criteria would seem to be at least:

1.) 18 months longevity (2 years is preferred/suggested by Spivak. Queen or colony...not clear?)
2.) Treatment-free


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Survival really is not subject to much interpretation. you can go ahead and make up a definition for yourself but it does not change the definition of survival it just means you like to play games with yourself. Survival means it is alive. I more accurate question is Survived what? Winter, beekeepers? A pesticide laden environment? a dearth? Migration and pollination? Diseases and parasites? Being robbed of massive amount of their honey stores? All the above? all the above simultaneously? If you are looking for that last one get a grip. And that is exactly what I believe the treatment free crowed thinks they can find. it does not exist and never has. Never will.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> If you are looking for that last one get a grip. And that is exactly what I believe the treatment free crowed thinks they can find. it does not exist and never has. Never will.


How do you explain that wiled bees still exist after millions of years?


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Ace, Do they? everywhere at all times?








I live an hour from there.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

My questions were to generate some thought. Actually along the lines of DY but not so hard and fast. ( no dis respect meant,) IMO, it matters because venders are advertising Survivor bees and all matter of traits. If nothing else, this type of discussion educates and will afford the ability for one to ask the right questions of the vendor so you can wade through mis conceptions, interpretations and make sure you are getting what is being advertised. JMHO
Rick


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## SippyBees (Feb 17, 2004)

FWIW... I agree along the lines of what Rick 1456 says. I know what I personally would accept as being survivor bees and the husbandry used in raising it.... but I am sure others have a different point of view. I am still hoping that several other beeks will share their opinions just to get a better consensus. The BeeWeaver video made a point that you can't raise a strong enough bee to survive a grenade. For ME that survivor trait is pretty much the ability to withstand a reasonable mite load, and SHB.... Those are important to me mostly cuz that is the things that I think give the most pressure to a hive where I am located. Sometimes a beek may do things to lower that pressure in the form of soft treatments... that is his call. I just want to get off the pesticide road... and I think that is what most people want. We will always be doing something to manage our bees or try to make a better bee.... that is what beeks do, but I think over the many years, we have learned that pesticides are EASY but have long term detrimental affects on bees as a whole. SO... for me.. survivor bees... or anyone I buy my bees from... would not use pesticides... that is pretty much an expectation from most of us I think. As to other forms of treatments or interventions.... I guess that depends on the individual as to what they would accept. As a minimum for me... I think I will be asking specific questions about the bees before I buy.... THIS thread has at least made me think about it all. Thanks for everyone's input...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Ace, Do they? everywhere at all times?


Well that pretty much limits it to just humans that can live everywhere or most everywhere at all times. I don't see why honeybees couldn't continue to thrive if humans were not on the planet.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

SippyBees said:


> SO... for me.. survivor bees... or anyone I buy my bees from... would not use pesticides... that is pretty much an expectation from most of us I think.


All the bees I purchased were treated and if I buy bees again I suspect they will be treated. Yes, for me it is a contradiction but I don't have control of how the bees are raised BEFORE I get them, only after I get them. As a back yard beek even the colonies I split will most likely have genetics from drones that came from treated hives. I also don't have control of the foraging environment that my bees will seek. I feel it is silly for a back yard beek to buy a hundred dollar queen. You may feel differently.
I think only if you are gong ho on being 100% committed to breading colonies would it make sense to buy "survivor bees". Again, your views could be totally different.


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## Nature Coast beek (Jun 10, 2012)

@Daniel Y

Of course it matters. Just like Rick1456 states, vendors are stressing/advertising "survivor bees", so that would infer that there are specific traits linked to this title. I would also think that the fact that leaders in the field of honey bee study and development/breeding are working on the subject would also add credibility to the idea that there is in fact credibility behind the idea of "survivor bees". Daniel Y, because* you* don't buy into it doesn't really mean anything other than you, one consumer in the world of beekeeping, doesn't buy into this criteria or see any merit. Well, lots of beeks don't agree on simpler things such as queen excluders either. So be it, you don't buy the hype, but that still isn't going to change the fact that bee sellers do, IN FACT sell "survivor bees" and that more sellers are developing better bees which are called "survior". Lastly, even those working on the so-called "survivor bees" stress LOCAL in their research. Survivor in one area isn't going to translate* NECESSARILY* to another. I think just about every leader in the field also admits that there is no "super bee".

The whole idea of the thread wasn't to make a final determination of if "survivor bees" is hype or fantasy...it was to determine what is the criteria for what a survivor bee* IS*. If we can draw or conjure an idea of a unicorn, we can* IN FACT* do the same with "survivor bees".


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

SippyBees said:


> To JBJ.. Have never heard of requeening every 6 months though. Because the BMP quote you write INCLUDES the term EHB stock... I am wondering if this recommendation is to prevent propogation of AHB bees.. since you are in Florida.


 Yeh that is the reason for every 6 months. But if you manage your bees ya sure as heck are going to find out if your bees are ahb it ain't rocket science.


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## mac (May 1, 2005)

SippyBees said:


> Soft treatments such as FGMO or OA... or whatever... doesn't seem to affect the bees health or future genetics....and in my opinion should not take away from their qualification as survivors.


 I would NOT consider them survivor. I think ANY mite treatments or meds used for nosima or foul brood would not be considered survivor. Without treatment they would not survive.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

It was said earlier that feeding wouldn't be considered survivor. To me this is a contradiction unless the hive started early / mid flow and was able to store honey and it wasn't taken from them. If we are harvesting honey then to me that needs to be replaced or we only harvest to the point that they have plenty to get them through. 

To me survivor is a hive that is there w/o any intervention for years. I wouldn't even care if they did throw a swarm yearly, as that is an indicator to me that they are thriving and that's how they "survive" and thrive.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> I would accept the term survivor for bees that have demonstrated 2 years and still productive, with no PESTICIDE treatment of the bees. Soft treatments such as FGMO or OA... or whatever... doesn't seem to affect the bees health or future genetics....and in my opinion should not take away from their qualification as survivors. -SippyBees


"No pesticides" means no pesticides, in my opinion. "Hard," "soft," or otherwise, a pesticide is a chemical intended to kill an organism deemed a "pest."

If you were to crush leaves, extract a compound produced by a plant and use that chemical to (hopefully) kill mites in a beehive, would that be "hard" or "soft?" Would it even be a "pesticide?" What if that compound is nicotine? Or pyrethrum?

How does a plant-produced chemical differ from a man-made one? From a practical standpoint and a physiological standpoint, how does natural nicotine differ from a man-made form (neonicotinoid)?

Whether or not it's stated, the term "survivor" implies that the bees can survive on their own, without help from humans. To me, that means no pesticides used (hard, soft, or otherwise), no feeding to prevent starvation (feeding to replace what the bees produced by themselves is a different matter, I think), no manipulations to deliberately change the populations of pests or pathogens within the hives, no medications to control pathogens.



> How do you explain that wiled bees still exist after millions of years? -Acebird


They've made it this long. Death is the certain end of each living individual organism. Extinction is the certain end of each species or organism. Some exist for longer periods of time, some for shorter. What causes that extinction differs for each species. Some simply can't compete with better adapted organisms. Some can't adapt to changes in the environment. What will cause the extinction of a seemingly populous species right now can be difficult to predict. But don't assume that each species will adapt to or overcome each and every change.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

The only issue I have on the feeding is.... if no food is available (drought etc...) bees are going to be hungry anyways.


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## Scottsman (May 1, 2011)

Can't leave this thread without leaving an example. I was asked by an Uncle if I would remove the bees from his house. I ask how long they had been there, his reply was " As long as I've lived there". That's over 20 years. They built their nest in the highest corner of the eve and enter through a hole about finger size. I couldn't get to them, second story. These bees are survivors.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Scottsman said:


> Can't leave this thread without leaving an example. I was asked by an Uncle if I would remove the bees from his house. I ask how long they had been there, his reply was " As long as I've lived there". That's over 20 years. They built their nest in the highest corner of the eve and enter through a hole about finger size. I couldn't get to them, second story. These bees are survivors.


You know, we have a friend that said the same thing to us, he has bees in the eaves of the house, been there 'forever'. I doubted that, but, turns out our neighbors across the street today, are the former owners of that house, and they agree, the bees were there as long as they owned the house. So, we had confirmation of bees in that house for 20+ years. Very interesting, we were going to see about getting stock out of that hive. But, it was to late in the year to start a new hive, so we just started watching.

In november, on a nice day when our bees were flying, we stopped by and checked. Sure enough, bees were coming and going from the hole in the side of the house. Great. Come january, we had a nice day, and again stopped to check. Bees in hives beside our house were flying, and, lots of housecleaning, lots of dead bees on the ground in front of the hive. Over to the survivors in the house, not a bee coming or going, and not a single dead bee on the ground. Oh well, it's in the shade, maybe it's to cold for them. Late february, another day like that, bees flying like crazy from the hives beside our house, so stop by and check. No sign of life at the 'survivor' colony. Late march rolls around, and our bees are booming, all the hives beside the house have orientation going, it's a beautiful sunny day, bees are coming and going like crazy. Stop by the survivor colony, no sign of life, not a single bee coming or going. Hmmmmm.

Wind the clock forward, mid may (just about the start of swarm season here), and we find out, the survivor colony has 'woke up'. Sure enough, bees coming and going like crazy.

Wind the clock forward a couple more months, and we discover quite by accident, 5 houses up the road, is a fella that keeps bees, 5 hives hidden in the back yard, completely out of sight, they have been there 'forever'. Those bees get pollen patties and feed early, so they will be built up for the early flows.

These dots all line up in a strait line, easy to connect.


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