# How to place pollen patties



## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

I want to feed pollen patties and wondering about placemnet. 

I have one deep and one medium hive set up. If I put the pattie over the second brood box, do I need to use a shim? I will have a top feeder over the box as well for sugar syrup.

Thanks


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## notaclue (Jun 30, 2005)

Is this a swarm, a cut out, new bees or need to prevent starvation and build numbers for the winter? I leave mine alone unless they need food.

Otherwise I place it above the bottom brood box. Because they attract SHB I remove them after four days. I also make mine real gooey but not runny and they are on wax paper with slits on the bottom for access there and remove excess paper on sides so they can get in that way also.


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

I agree with notaclue, if you see them bringing in pollen save your money and leave the pollen patties out they will ignore them with natural pollen available. I always move enough frames of pollen and honey to support queen rearing and brood development when making a split. The only time I give them pollen patties is in the spring when there is no pollen around and I need to get them going for spring bloom.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've never gotten them to take pollen patties except in the spring before there's pollen available or it's too cold to fly. They just haul them out or the wax moths move into them. People with hive beetles say they eat them as well.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Brent wrote, 
> I agree with notaclue, if you see them bringing in pollen save your money and leave the pollen patties out they will ignore them with natural pollen available. 

Not true,
I am feeding pollen sub as we speak, the problem is that, most fall pollen is poor in quality. Bees will take pollen sub any time (if not to cold) if it is made right.

Keith


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## marty (Nov 7, 2000)

Keith: 
I agree with you, feeding pollen sub " if it is made right" has made a large differance in the size and quality of our hives. Most Keepers don't feed enought to make a difference in there hives. One good meal will not make a person fat. Look how long it takes to fatten a steer to butcher. 1 hive will consume 100# of pollen a year. If you feed 1, 2 pound pollen patty = 2% of hives protein needs for a year.
Winevine I would put the pattys as close to the brood as you can.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Sooner or later, the importance of fall protein feeding will be seen just as important as spring feeding. Yeah, there will be some locations that natural pollen and resulting stores will be enough. But with the ever increasing land developement, mono-agriculture farms, poor nutritional value of field crop pollen, and other factors....feeding pollen/sub for many is an insurance card that can reap huge benefits.

But I suppose as long as these "urban legend" type comments keep circulating....like dropped comb in the bee yard or pollen patties attract small hive beetle, its going to be a long road to follow.

Lets see....shb can smell the alarm pheromone for miles away as was just recently noted in research. And to believe the shb can not, and will not, target a hive for invasion...till some unsuspecting beekeeper places a pollen patty inside the hive....is ridiculous. Thats as bad as the comments that dropped comb in the yard will attract shb, as somehow, without this comb being dropped, the shb will not and can not target the smell of the hive anyways. Yeah, right!

In light of CCD, mite pressures, viral and bacterial pressure, forage concerns involving increased pesticide use from laced farm seed to homeowner yard sprays...all leads me to believe that doing everything to give your bees an advantage should be considered.

We have noted 20 year old studies from australia, had recent article on the importance of fall protein feeding in bee mags, and many discussions here on beesource, about the impact of low pollen reserves, poor nutritional pollen, and the effects of "low protein deficency".


I think the old standard thought of "hey, I got too much pollen. I have frames completely filled..better pull that stuff out!"...will fall by the wayside. I think that having huge pollen stores going into winter in there by design. But sometimes with our splitting efforts, rotation of boxes, honey management, and other factors....we only mess up what the bees would of naturally done if left alone.

I'll be marking hives this year that would of been traditionally thought to have too much pollen. My guess is that they will fair better then the average or lesser amount hives.

My bees in just the last week have started collecting dry pollen feed. This pollen sub has been in a feeder all summer and completely ignored till now. And although early goldenrod and other plants are still producing, the bees have decided to switch to almost year old pollen sub. Makes you wonder, why now? Maybe they know quality and quantity and are letting me know something.

I posted pictures yesterday about this in the photo gallery. See "early fall feeding".


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

"the problem is that most FALL POLLEN is poor quality". K. Jarrett: Maybe in some areas of the country that may be true. I have read that Dandelion [sp], corn, pine and other wind pollinated plants are not of good quality for bees. I "thought" that WE are going in the direction of natural food [for bees] with unknown "properties" [biochemicals] for honeybees and NOT providing artificial food; pollen sub, syrup, etc. This is totally NEW for me; providing pollen sub in the autumn/fall of a season!! Why is it "assumed" that the pollen collected during late summer/fall in most areas of the country is of "poor quallity"?


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Oldbee states..."Why is it "assumed" that the pollen collected during late summer/fall in most areas of the country is of "poor quallity"?

Another way of asking would be..."Why is it "assumed" that the pollen collected during late summer/fall in most areas of the country is of "good quality"?


In researching pollen nutrition, there is a vast amount of knowledge that is lacking. As an industry, we don't yet have a catalog of pollen with nutrition and analysis. Its really a shame that this has not been done sooner.

Other countries have made an effort to catalog major pollen varieties. They know that some pollen is good, some are bad. And if your in a certain area, then pollen substitute may be helpful at one time of the year, etc.

Take a look at 

http://www.honeybee.com.au Go to the Library. Funny how some of the stuff has recently made its way to updated articles based on some of the same info. This info dates back twenty years! 

http://www.honeybee.com.au/Library/pollen/nutrition.html

This is an australian site. But it shows some of the effort, and even past problems they had similar in nature to CCD, and what they are suggesting.

No doubt, the landscape is changing. How many people have bees in urban and suburban settings? Whats the impact of changing landscape forage? You need to keep in mind, we keep bees where we want them. And if left up to their own doing, bees may or may not thrive at some locations due to forage limitations, enviromental impact, etc.

I have no doubt that there are many beekeepers in areas with significant pollen sources to provide a diverse and nutritious balanced diet that bees require. But are you sure about your bees? Can you say for sure that they get what they need? Not just to survive, but to exceed natural expectations and reward you with a surplus beyond what they require themselves?

Searching for a good site becomes mainly a search for a place to keep bees for many. Not many seek out good locations based on forage conditions. Most settle for their backyard, or the local farmer who will allow bees to be placed. So sometimes its not the ideal location for many reasons, with nutrition and forage requirments being impacted. And for anyone pollinating field crops or in farming areas in general, I can go well beyond "assuming" in basing my opinion that bees lack proper nutrition for overwintering.

I think we are on the tip of the iceberg when it comes to bee nutrition. Are you going to leave your bees to mother nature and withstand what comes down the road every year. Some good, with others bad?

I find it confusing that so many feel light hives need assistance in fall feeding, yet feel the very same hives have enough pollen to overwinter and thrive in the spring. I guess I just assume that if a hive needs feeding, for whatever reason, why would we skip the protein source?

I think many problems in beekeeping are due to compounding circumstances. Mites, viruses, local pesticide use, lost natural forage, and so on. I think taking care of a simple matter such as protein feeding, whether needed or just for insurance, is well worth it.

How many even heard of "fall protein deficiency" more then 6 months ago? Times are a changing. I think bee nutrition will see better days ahead, but only if beekeepers demand it.


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## Oldbee (Sep 25, 2006)

Well.....................I only have 3 hives......... so providing "nutrients" for the bees for ALL seasons in order to INCREASE my '"production" is not an issue. For those who need to increase the "number" of their hives, maybe "feeding pollen sub" in the autumn/late s
ummer is to their advantage for splits in the spring. 

BjornBee: You have so much more experience with beekeeping than I and have given a lot great information/advice. 

winevines: so far I have only provided pollen patties in the early spring with a super/box to provide syrup also; wax paper for the patties; about 4 inches diameter; 1/2 inch thick; centered on the brood nest; NO shim. With the top feeder you may not need "extra space" for the patty.


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## Alienor (Mar 16, 2005)

Björnbee, 
you're speaking from my heart at pollen/protein requirements of the bees.
As I wrote in Walt Wright's thread: pollen/protein is the most uncared ressource of the hive.
And there is no data base about the nutritional value of the various kinds of pollen.
Landscape changed drastic and we don't have anymore the diversity of plants all around.
Plus climate change we will have to take some more care of our bees.
Here in northern germany we had a very abnormal weather in spring and summer and I had to feed pollen sub in JULY. Now I have a flow of goldenrod and balsamines, but this will not be enough for large storages for winter.
So I'm going to feed pollen patties.
The bees gave me the honey, and I sold it. 
So now I'm on the hook to make sure they will survive winter and the start of brood.


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Bjorn wrote,
> Sooner or later, the importance of fall protein feeding will be seen just as important as spring feeding. 

The most bang for your buck is FALL pollen sub feeding. It has well been studied ( UC DAVIS )that the most benefit is FALL pollen sub feeding.

I have been feeding 15 pounds plus per hive in the fall for more than a decade. 


Many late pollen plants such as, wild sunflower,tar weed, corn ect.. is low in value, and Yes, I have sent these pollen samples to the lab for profiles. Most BEEKEEPERS are to CHEAP to open there pocket book to find out whats works and what doesn't.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Most wind pollinated plants, such as corn, pine, etc, will have the lowest nutritional profiles. Plants species that obligate insect pollinated will pay higher nutritional dividends. In many locations this time of year there is a dearth of high value insect pollinated blooms, thus making feeding of pollen sub even more beneficial.


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## Brent Bean (Jun 30, 2005)

Good debate on both sides of the fence, but like MB I have had no luck feeding pollen substitute in the fall and no matter what I think they need if they just throw it out or ignore the substitute it don’t show any advantage to try and give it to them. They way I see it the bees know what’s the better pollen source. 
Winewives: 
Try a small batch of patties and if they take it give it to them, if they leave it alone chuck it out, because it will only invite critters you don’t want and your bees don’t need to deal with.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have nothing against the cost or the effort. I just haven't gotten the bees to accept it anytime but late winter. In patties they seem to just ignore it and dry they just haul it out. Have you seen a pollen pattie full of Lesser wax moth larvae? I have.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

"Have you seen a pollen pattie full of Lesser wax moth larvae? I have."

Me too! Just not in one from a patty placed between the brood chambers in the middle of a cluster.


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