# natural beekeeping business



## natural bee bill

hi i'am bill
my friend and i have started a bee business 
we have set up my friends apiary just over 2 years ago and now we are setting up my apiary .
we will have around 100 each to start .(not all in the same place )
we have farmers that have our hive on there orchards and so on .
i am a member of some other forum and they are not happy that we use warre hive in our business .
they say we can not use warre hives in business they are not for business .
well i say we use them as they are good for our bees and that is what we want .
natural way of working with bees .
we know we can get more honey from commercial or langstroth hives but we want to move away from hives like that .
we build all our hive from wood i get free form a friend that get all there goods in big wooden boxes so i make them in warre hives .
so what do you the people of this forum think are we mad ?
do you think this will be bad for our bees .
we know we are not going to get rich working with just warre hive but as long as we can make some money we are happy .
i can not see why some people say it will not work we made some good money from the hives we have at the apiary my friends runs last year .
we have not lost any hives this winter so we are off to a great start .
we are moving all our stock from langstroth and commercial hives in to warre hive .
we are moving the last into warres and put them on my site .
please tell me what you think of this .
my friend has worked with bees for years over 20 and i only 2 years working with my friend i know i still have a long way to go before i'am a beekeeper but i will get there with help from my friend .
it all takes time read and do that is the way i'am doing it and it is working for me .
thankyou for your time 
all the best 
BILL


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## jrbbees

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

Good luck. Never be afraid to try something different if it is based on what you consider to be real "bee"observation. Don't try it with more than you are prepared to lose. Be prepared for others to tell you how dumb you are. Ask for their advice in return. Never be afraid to learn something from someone who thinks your wrong. Never be afraid to be wrong. Many new things are learned that way.

Good Luck.


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## Rusty Hills Farm

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

I learned a long time ago to go my own way and do my own thing. That way, WHATEVER happens, I know the only person to blame is me. The only serious regrets I have ever had happened when I listened to somebody else instead of my own gut.

Good luck and GO FOR IT!!!

:thumbsup:

Rusty


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## nativewillow

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

The grammar police are out in full force. I rather like the fact that he corrected the misspelling but did not offer any help regarding the question. If all you can offer to a conversation is your negativity then you most likely do not need to respond at all.
I have seen the Warre hives and have mixed feeling about them. My first is the materials used at the top of the hive could attract SHB. I seem to have a problem in TN with the SHB but manage it well naturally. I do not use any antibiotic or medications in any of my hives. I have 2 langs, 1 nuc and a TBH. 
This is my first year with a TBH and I am a bit apprehensive about losing comb when the weather turns warmer. I say do what you are the most comfortable with and what your bees seem happy with.
I have people in my bee club that seemed downright angry that I got as TBH but I wanted to try a bit of everything. If the Warre hive works for you and your bees then I say use them. I may even set up a Warre hive next year because I want to experience all aspect of keeping bees, not just the comfortable ones. 
Good luck on your endeavors!


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## hpm08161947

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*



nativewillow said:


> The grammar police are out in full force. I rather like the fact that he corrected the misspelling but did not offer any help regarding the question. If all you can offer to a conversation is your negativity then you most likely do not need to respond at all.


There are quite a few members of the "Grammar Police" roaming this forum. Do not consider it a "Negativity", think of it more as an attempt to enhance or clarify the correspondence's message.


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## Michael Bush

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

>so what do you the people of this forum think are we mad ?

No.

>do you think this will be bad for our bees .

No. Bees don't care what kind of box they are in. But they would be easier to manage and still have natural comb in a Langstroth with foundationless frames. Or, assuming you are in the UK, maybe with a British Standard with foundationless frames...

>we know we are not going to get rich working with just warre hive but as long as we can make some money we are happy .

Then be happy.

>i can not see why some people say it will not work we made some good money from the hives we have at the apiary my friends runs last year .

If doing Warre' hives is saving you costs on the hives, you may actually come out ahead on that...

>we have not lost any hives this winter so we are off to a great start .


Yes, you are.

>we are moving all our stock from langstroth and commercial hives in to warre hive .

If you already have Langstroth equipment, why not just go to foundationless and use the equipment?

>we are moving the last into warres and put them on my site .
please tell me what you think of this .

I think it would cost less money and work to just move to foundationless on the Langstroth equipment, but there is nothing wrong with using a Warre.


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## Bush_84

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

Maybe I missed it, but how many warre hives are you two currently running? You said that your friend turned a profit running 100 hives last year. How many were warre and how many were langs? I think it's important to know that first. If your friend turned a profit running 100 warre hives then why not expand that? If your friend turned a profit running all langs and you want to switch to warre then that is a risk.


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## gmcharlie

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*



hpm08161947 said:


> There are quite a few members of the "Grammar Police" roaming this forum. Do not consider it a "Negativity", think of it more as an attempt to enhance or clarify the correspondence's message.


Hardly, its a know it all attitude.... if the spelling concerned an actual issue maybe, but most of them on here and other sites are just incapable of sitting quietly...



As for Warre and commercial, heck thats up to you!... you can run what you like! I see a ton of problems, but then again, you probably see issues with Langs!... so go for it!


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## rhaldridge

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*



gmcharlie said:


> Hardly, its a know it all attitude.... if the spelling concerned an actual issue maybe, but most of them on here and other sites are just incapable of sitting quietly...


True. It wasn't really a spelling error, just a typo. He had all the right letters, but in the wrong order. I write for a living, and I still commit typos all the time (and also misspellings.)

Speaking of unconventional hives, a lot of folks take the position that if you don't do everything the same way they do, you're doomed.

You probably aren't.


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## hpm08161947

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*



rhaldridge said:


> True. It wasn't really a spelling error, just a typo. He had all the right letters, but in the wrong order. I write for a living, and I still commit typos all the time (and also misspellings.)


Yes, but do you reread/check/edit your writings before you post? Looks like you do. I do not "Know it all", actually I know very little, but I do know what jangles my nerves.


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## rhaldridge

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*



hpm08161947 said:


> Yes, but do you reread/check/edit your writings before you post? Looks like you do. I do not "Know it all", actually I know very little, but I do know what jangles my nerves.


Well sure I do, but it's force of habit more than any urge to seek perfection while posting here. I don't get paid to post here. If I posted a response every time somebody said something that jangled my nerves, I wouldn't have time for anything else. There are folks on every forum (not just this one) who go out of their way to be uncivil with folks who disagree with them, or worse, are routinely unpleasant with folks who don't instantly accept everything they say as gospel. Compared to that, a typo seems pretty innocent.

Plus, a big risk with pointing out grammatical errors, typos, and poor spelling is that someone may find it amusing to go back and look at your old posts for similar errors.


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## Ravenzero

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

Somewhere on Biobiees forum there was a user who stated that some apiaries in France make a profit running all warre and because of the low lost of hives. Dont quote me on that though.


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## natural bee bill

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

well i did not think that a typo would start a war .
sorry my spelling may not be up to what you want but until 4 years ago i was not able to read or write so i think i'am doing fine.
i do hope i do not need to get my dictionary out everything i post or reply i would be here all day ( ha ha )
thankyou for all your replys .
we did run 100 warre hive last year and made some money not alot but it was only year 2 for the hives they will do batter this year .
my friend lots more and more hives every year when he used just commercial and langstroth hives and when we changed to warre hive the first year we lots 1 hive and this wintwer we did not lose any .
i get free wood from my other friend he runs a business that get all it's good in big wooden boxes so i turn them into our hives at a cost of around £2 to £3 per hive .
we will build our business up in time .
this year we started my site and in time around 2 years we will look to start a new site .
the thing is to find the right sites it is no good having 100 hive if the bees have no food for your bees as you all know .
i would like to thank everyone for the reply and if my spelling is not that good please do not let it up set you .
all the best to you , your familys and your bees


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## cerezha

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

Good luck with your bees! Spelling is unimportant, good people are important! My broken English is much worse than yours. Nevertheless, I am still using it...

As for Langs - in my opinion,the "profit" from using Langs is based on reusing comb and stealing all honey from the bees leaving them to winter on syrup... not really "natural"... In this sense, Warre is much more natural to me! From another hand I do agree with Michael Bush, that one could use Lang boxes for Warre-style beekeeping. I am using Lang boxes with top bars, it works for me and my bees.


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## eccentricbeekeeper

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

My latest favorite book quote:

"Natural beekeepers come in various shades of ecocentricity and apicentricity. I suggest that we keep bees in a hive that suits us and in a way that satisfies us. So feel free to pick and choose!" ― David Heaf, _Natural Beekeeping with the Warré Hive: A Manual_ (2013)


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## rhaldridge

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*



cerezha said:


> As for Langs - in my opinion,the "profit" from using Langs is based on reusing comb and stealing all honey from the bees leaving them to winter on syrup... not really "natural"... In this sense, Warre is much more natural to me! From another hand I do agree with Michael Bush, that one could use Lang boxes for Warre-style beekeeping. I am using Lang boxes with top bars, it works for me and my bees.


Sergey, I think if you have the right philosophy, you can keep bees in Lang boxes without resorting to much in the way of unnatural practices.

Tim Ives is a treatment-free beekeeper in northern Illinois. He overwinters in 3 deeps. By March, he starts supering those massive hives, and by mid-April he has to use a stepladder to work his hives. He produces huge amounts of honey, but here's the interesting thing: he does not feed, either pollen sub or syrup.

I love my long hives here in Florida. But I plan to start a couple of Lang colonies up in NY, because I can't be there all summer. They'll have to take care of themselves for a month or so. But if I ever get up there on a permanent basis, I'm going to try some long hives. They are equivalent to 3 deeps in volume, but can be supered. So if I can figure out how to make the long hive mostly brood nest, as Tim does his 3 deeps, then I can put 9 supers on the hive without needing a stepladder.

Maybe that's excessively ambitious, but why not dream big? Dreams are inexpensive, and entertaining.


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## sqkcrk

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

peignllS tn'si poritnatm, but it sure makes getting ones message read and understood easier for the readers.

Kent? Kent,Ohio? Or Kent, England? Or some other Kent?


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## sqkcrk

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*



cerezha said:


> As for Langs - in my opinion,the "profit" from using Langs is based on reusing comb and stealing all honey from the bees leaving them to winter on syrup....


Sergey, that may be your opinion, but it is factually incorrect. A gross exaggeration for sure. HoneyHouseholder is the only beekeeper we know who takes all the honey from his bees. You need to see more commercial operations first hand.


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## cerezha

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*



sqkcrk said:


> Sergey, that may be your opinion, but it is factually incorrect. A gross exaggeration for sure. HoneyHouseholder is the only beekeeper we know who takes all the honey from his bees. You need to see more commercial operations first hand.


Mark, I stated that it is "my opinion". Also, I did not mention "commercial". I am not criticizing commercial approach since I have no experience with this. My understanding how commercial Lang is working based mainly on beesource posts. I am reluctant to study deeper because I am a hobbyist and have no intention to go commercial. I would really appreciate if you clarify, what was wrong in my statement from commercial point of view.


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## hpm08161947

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

So how does one make a Profit with Warre hives? Is it just a honey deal? All crush and strain, or maybe cut-comb? The Warre hive looks like it would be very difficult to use in pollination, but I suppose with a 100 hive operation a strong back could manage it. I have no idea how one would load 100 warre hives on a truck.... I do not think they can be stacked.... Several other questions come to mind..... all and all, it looks like a very tough way to turn a profit.


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## sqkcrk

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

Do you know anyone who does what you stated as your opinion? As a means of making profit w/ Langstroth hives?


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## natural bee bill

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

i have seen some people online that have over 100 hives to work with and are building on that .
thay do say they make money at it .
i did read that one person has over 250 warre hives and is doing very well and the post i look at he told us he had no perblems with his bees for 6 years and had not lost a hive in all that time .
he was in the EU but i can not remember where .
i know some one that has 4 perone hives and some warre hive they are building more perone hive they say they are great but very very big and form what i read you can get a lot of honey from them but only after 3 or 4 years .
they are that big you have to give the bees 3 or 4 years to build the hive before you get any honey .
have you ever seen a perone hive ?
hope to talk soon 
all the best Bill


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## sqkcrk

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

Is there something special about a particular type of hive which will effect the colony which lives in it, making that colony perform differently than another type of hive?

Hasn't lost one colony in 6 years? Skeptical. That's better than the average pre-varroa days.


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## natural bee bill

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

you make a profit the same way you do with any other hive .
you can stack them if you take the roof off and put a transport roof on until you get to where you are going .
why would a warre be hard to use to pollination the bees come and go in the same way as other hives ?
please let me know your other questions .
thanks bill


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## natural bee bill

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

i can only say what i see onling .
natural hives are better for the bees .
commercial / langstroth / wbc and the others are all about just taking honey 
natural hives are about the bees .
that may be why he did not lose any hives 
i hope that is right then the more of us that use natural hive the more bees we will have .


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## R Dewhurst

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

I could see making money with a warre. First to harvest the honey, you will destroy the combs. Then letting the bees clean out the comb that was harvested from, you could use the wax for candles, cosmetics, or even your own foundation to sell ( since it is natural and you have a mill). I see potential for the warre hive owners.


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## sqkcrk

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

I guess it is possible that if you keep bees and don't do anything w/ them, then they will swarm when they want to and you may not notice when a colony has died.

Six years w/out any colony mortality doesn't happen in Nature. That's why I am skeptical about his claim. Could be, but I doubt it. Not that it really matters.

"natural hives are better for the bees"? How so? Wouldn't it more likely be the way those so called "natural hives" are managed or not managed?


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## sqkcrk

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

Any hive type or management style can be profitable. It's all about how well you manage the Business of beekeeping.


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## R Dewhurst

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*



sqkcrk said:


> I guess it is possible that if you keep bees and don't do anything w/ them, then they will swarm when they want to and you may not notice when a colony has died.
> 
> Six years w/out any colony mortality doesn't happen in Nature. That's why I am skeptical about his claim. Could be, but I doubt it. Not that it really matters.
> 
> "natural hives are better for the bees"? How so? Wouldn't it more likely be the way those so called "natural hives" are managed or not managed?


If you let the hives be natural, the queen would be replaced every year with a new one from swarming. I could see a colony living that long, My parents had one in the top of a tree when I was younger for right at 7 years, That is where this passion first started when I was 8. I like this quote from a well known beek on here, "bees need beekeepers like fish need bicycles".


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## Michael Bush

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

I think there is more money to be made in selling bees than honey. That would be much more profitable with Langstroth hives so you could sell nucs.


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## rhaldridge

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*



Michael Bush said:


> I think there is more money to be made in selling bees than honey. That would be much more profitable with Langstroth hives so you could sell nucs.


Seems like it would be more fun, too. And there never seems to be a glut of nucs. Don't most of the folks who sell nucs sell out every year?


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## R Dewhurst

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

as far as I have seen, especially if they are priced right


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## hpm08161947

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*

Nucs sell very easily, particularly in a coupla weeks when the newbees with their package bees start to have problems....


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## sqkcrk

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*



R Dewhurst said:


> I like this quote from a well known beek on here, "bees need beekeepers like fish need bicycles".


And yet you own bees? Why? Is that what "natural beekeeping" is? Having bees and doing nothing w/ them other than putting them ina box in your back yard?


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## rhaldridge

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*



sqkcrk said:


> And yet you own bees? Why? Is that what "natural beekeeping" is? Having bees and doing nothing w/ them other than putting them ina box in your back yard?


I think if you want to be literal about it, there is no such thing as completely natural beekeeping, unless you define beekeeping as "not cutting down that bee tree in my back yard."

But in my admittedly inexperienced opinion, bees are wild animals. The less you stress a colony (by forcing it to do unnatural things) the better for the health of the bees. Zoo animals, for example, do better in naturalized setting like fake savannahs than they do in cages no matter how nice the cages are.

As an example of an unnatural thing, how about feeding syrup? I did it this spring, but I stopped as soon as there was a good nectar flow, and I hope to mostly avoid it in the future.

Maybe I'm wrong but that's my personal philosophy.


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## sqkcrk

*Re: natrual beekeeping business*



natural bee bill said:


> sorry my spelling may not be up to what you want but until 4 years ago i was not able to read or write so i think i'am doing fine.


What about your business background? What is that like?


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