# AFB/Not AFB?



## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I have never seen...carreer limited, but i would be really interested in the results from the tests


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

read the following discussion, its refered to snot brood if its the same thing.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232846&highlight=brood

doesn't seem to hurt the bees from what I have seen, didn't see any last year.


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## whix (Feb 3, 2002)

I had AFB once and that is just like I found it. 
Big colony, pin holes in the cappings and coffee and cream coloured slime in the cell.
I stirred it up in the cell but it would not rope more than 1/8", no smell. I called in my inspector and he said he was surprised I even found it there was so few cells. We also found a couple cells in a split from that hive and he just flattened the cells. He sent off samples (only inspectors can send samples from Canada) to Beltsville and it came back as AFB. He condemned the colony and quarantined the yard for one year. I burned the colony and treated the yard and haven't seen it since.
I admit I was pretty lax treating for AFB as I had never seen it in 25 years and really thought the fear was blown way out of proportion, still do.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

the two entries about snot brood from bee-l

>
> >I have been observing what Randy is in Michigan. PMS with some snotty
> brood in some hives in some yards even though they all get similar
> treatment.


This is of considerable interest, Kirk! I've now heard of these symptoms
from Calif, Colorado, Michigan, and the East Coast. Appears to be
widespread. Appears to be something that experienced beeks have only seen
for a few years. Does not appear to require the presence of miticides or
pesticides.

I'm hoping to use a new technology soon to screen such sick brood for a very
wide variety of pathogens.

Randy Oliver


>
> >I wondered a couple years ago on BEE-L when you were talking about seeing
> virus problems in hives with low varroa load if possibly you were seeing
> EFB.


Thanks, Bob. No, I was referring to DWV at that time. Used to only see it
when varroa was high. Now see it much more regularly, in the occassional
bee, even when varroa levels are low.

Samples that I have sent to labs don't necessarily find EFB in the yellow
larvae of which I speak. Symptoms look different that what I generally see
for EFB (I've seen EFB when colonies were stressed in early spring, long
before we had varroa in this country, but it would clear up on its own).

What I'm seeing now is more of what I associated with PMS, or what Dr Pettis
and David VanE are currently referring to as "snotty brood." They are not
calling it EFB, either. Both them and I have been seeing snotty brood for
about two years, on opposite coasts of the country.

I can't blame it on pesticides or miticides, since the former are rare in my
colonies, and the latter are absent. There is something else afoot.

Randy Oliver

hope it helps


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Mark it has to be one of three things....Atypical AFB, the old timers would call it "Para foulbrood". PMS--Parasitic mite syndrome.....Or Yellow Jasmine poisoning. If the result come back negative for AFB or PMS, then you know your bees have fed yellow jamine pollen to the larvae. I see mushy larvae in "long" queen cells sometimes at this time of the year when the yellow vine is in bloom. Hope this helps TED


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks Ted. In all likelihood it is plain old ordinary AFB. It'll be time to go back to NY before I get the results back from Beltsville, so I'll just have to err on the side of caution and deal w/ it.

Were it the Jasmine, wouldn't I be seeing it in more than one colony?


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Mark, you would think that. But we had some yellow jasmine poisoning in a yard. Some colonies were not affected by it. Some you would lift up the brood chamber and there would be fifty dead bees that had just died with yellow pollen attached. The brood was spotty and I did see something similar to what you have written. It was not AFB-no smell, no rope. It could be atypical AFB, it does exist but only Beltsville can tell. TED


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

sqkcrk said:


> In all likelihood it is plain old ordinary AFB. It'll be time to go back to NY before I get the results back from Beltsville, so I'll just have to err on the side of caution and deal w/ it.


did belstville ever get back to you with the results?


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Mark, were the cappings sunken?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Nah, I erred on the side of caution and burned the frames. Didn't bother sending in the sample.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

:applause::applause::applause: That a boy!! However, its not a bad idea to run a round of tylan before moving them or splitting again. That is my suggestion for anyone with a large number of hives in one area and only a few frames with mild infections... 5 or less cells each... I havent had a chance to read your discription in full yet, but in your personal opinion, was it just mild infections?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I don't really recall.


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

This is new to me and I am trying to learn. I didn't realize that AFB could be other than what I have read about foul odor, roping and sunken cappings. The lack of foul odor and roping was mentioned, but I wondered if there were also sunken cappings, therefore my question. 

Another question if I may...........could the diagnosis be different in a deadout...........like brood dies, turns liquid brown because the bees tending and keeping it warm died first?


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## HONEYDEW (Mar 9, 2007)

To burn your equip. without even knowing what you got seems a little crazy to me, what if it was nothing serious? , what if it was? you still could have taken appropriate steps to fix or eradicate the situation with an educated answer, Fear is never a good reason to do anything....


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Bee Bliss said:


> but I wondered if there were also sunken cappings, therefore my question.
> 
> ...........like brood dies, turns liquid brown because the bees tending and keeping it warm died first?


Yes, all the outward signs were present.

That would look different entirely.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

HONEYDEW said:


> To burn your equip. without even knowing what you got seems a little crazy to me, what if it was nothing serious?


No fear involved. Expediency, experience, having lots of equipment and over 400 colonies, the likelihood that it was AFB were why I burned it. I am not afraid of AFB. I can't think of anything in beekeeping that I am fearful of which would prompt me to react in a hasty way, except bears, perhaps.

I "knew" what I had, except it didn't really act like classic AFB, so I asked others about it. I have seen cases of suspect AFB before, that when Lab Tested, came back AFB. So, I didn't bother w/ the Lab Diagnosis.

Others would and maybe should handle this differently. That freedom exists.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#pfb

Parafoulbrood is caused by Bacillus para-alvei and possibly combinations of other microorganisms and has symptoms similar to EFB but sort of like AFB but not ropey.


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