# varroa heat treatment?



## Hedghawg

The link sends me to the beesource forum index page


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## JWPalmer

Interesting concept. I would not invest in this company however.


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## JWPalmer

Hedghawg said:


> The link sends me to the beesource forum index page


??? I watched a few minutes of the video. They lost me at a 2.5 hour treatment per hive.


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## DaisyNJ

herbhome said:


> Anyone have any experience with this technique?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.greenbeehives.com/thevictor.html


Why waste money ? Get an OAV gadget instead. If 106F for two hours kills the varroa, how come varroa infestation goes up in August, even in southern states ?


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## Rader Sidetrack

Whether this _particular_ device design works as claimed is not something I can say. But there is some substance to the concept of heat-treating varroa ...
https://projects.sare.org/sare_project/lne96-066/?ar=1996
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fighting-varroa-biotechnical-tactics-ii/
http://www.mitezapper.com/The-Advantage_c_1.html
https://www.researchgate.net/public..._and_effective_method_for_Varroa_mite_control


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## wildbranch2007

a friend of mine bought a similar piece of equipment, except it worked off of 110, he hasn't said if it worked yet. I went to the sales pitch, one of the potential problems was, all the testing was done down south, and they expected that everyone was using one deep for brood chambers, so this might work for Ian but they weren't sure what would happen to hives that were bigger than 1 deep, and or had honey supers on it, also it wouldn't work with solar panels. If my friend reports his results, I'll see if I can find this thread again and post.


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## sr4440

So there should be no mites in Arizona or south Texas? :scratch:


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## wildbranch2007

sr4440 said:


> So there should be no mites in Arizona or south Texas? :scratch:


maybe that's why the Lubies and Weavers don't have mite problems


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## Saskie

I remember reading about it a few years back that you have to keep breaking the cluster, as a cluster of bees will regulate their temperature to not let it get that hot. Outside temps might reach those temps, but the bees are doing their best to cool that cluster to normal temperatures. I also remember something about incubating capped brood (without adhering bees), but don't remember the details. For someone who has the time to manipulate the hive every couple of days, incubating the brood could serve a double purpose of speeding hive growth and reducing mite load, assuming it actually works.


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## roddo27846

Herb,
This thread is a testament to the adage that if you ask ten beekeepers you'll get twelve answers. I think it is safe to say that none of the people answering you have any experience with heat treatment for varroa, which as I read it was your question. Still have answers though. (Insert rolling my eyes emoji here).


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## herbhome

Thanks for the feedback. I came across this on Amazon and it piqued my interest. 2.5 hours per brood box is unsustainable if one's operation reaches any scale at all.


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## Live Oak

While at the Tennessee Beekeepers Conference in Cookeville this year I decided to try something similar to what you all are discussing in this thread. I purchased 3 of the Mity Mite Killer systems. 

https://www.beehivethermalindustries.com/shop/

I have not gotten around to testing them yet as I have been busy winterizing my apiary. This system runs off of 110 ac power so I purchased a Honda EU 2000 inverter generator. Once I have gotten caught up and got everything together and tested this equipment on several hives, I will post my results and thoughts. If it works, it was definitely worth trying out and if not, Lynn Williams told me he would refund my money. In theory this type of treatement makes sense but in application Murphy is always hard at work buggering up the works.


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## psm1212

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Whether this _particular_ device design works as claimed is not something I can say. But there is some substance to the concept of heat-treating varroa ...
> https://projects.sare.org/sare_project/lne96-066/?ar=1996
> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/fighting-varroa-biotechnical-tactics-ii/
> http://www.mitezapper.com/The-Advantage_c_1.html
> https://www.researchgate.net/public..._and_effective_method_for_Varroa_mite_control


I agree. There is substance to the concept, but these products all seem to have lengthy time intervals for treatment. If this concept developed into some type of "flash" heat treatment, it might be more practical for those with more than 10+ hives.

As to varroa surviving in 106+ degree southern climates, the bees will cool their hives in these climates to maintain a hive temperature below the external temperature.


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## roddo27846

Live Oak said:


> While at the Tennessee Beekeepers Conference in Cookeville this year I decided to try something similar to what you all are discussing in this thread. I purchased 3 of the Mity Mite Killer systems.
> 
> https://www.beehivethermalindustries.com/shop/
> 
> I have not gotten around to testing them yet as I have been busy winterizing my apiary. This system runs off of 110 ac power so I purchased a Honda EU 2000 inverter generator. Once I have gotten caught up and got everything together and tested this equipment on several hives, I will post my results and thoughts. If it works, it was definitely worth trying out and if not, Lynn Williams told me he would refund my money. In theory this type of treatement makes sense but in application Murphy is always hard at work buggering up the works.


Cool. I will be waiting to hear what you have to say.


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## FlowerPlanter

sr4440 said:


> So there should be no mites in Arizona or south Texas? :scratch:


Bees regulate the inside temp, if it's hot they fan nectar to cool the hive and circulate air. In order to increase inside temp the hive needs to be sealed to prevent the bees from doing this. It does not take much to overheat a hive, break comb, kill brood. 2.5 hours I would think they would suffocate with out air. There are lots of varying factors that can effect the hive ability to regulate the temp. 

Seems to me there would be too many things that could go wrong in the field that could cause this to be either ineffective or destructive. 

As someone else said just OVA them. At least until you can add enough mite resistance in your apiary. There are many big projects working on this right now, IMO it won't be much longer until we will be done with this mite fad.


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## Live Oak

I am in my 2nd week of using the Mitey Mite Killer I purchased from Lynn Williams at the TBA Conference in Cookeville, TN. I am getting an initial mite drop on the Mitey Mite Killer heat plates in the range of 2 dozen and in some hives more. The treatment takes a bit of time (3 hours for a single deep, 3.5 hours for double deep boxes) but is designed to treat the larva in the capped cells as well. 

A side benefit is that it kills the hive beetles, any wax moths or their larva, and tracheal mites. Any small hive beetles that manage to get out of the hive end up on the plastic closer under the bottom board screen which makes them easy targets to kill when you remove the plastic closer board in my experience. The treatment primarily targets the brood but the bees that exit the hive during treatment I have found groom each other as I have noted a mite drop on the heat plate portion that is outside the entrance where the bees beard up. 

This is where I purchased mine. 

https://www.beehivethermalindustries.com/

They currently have 8 & 10 frame units but I am hearing they plan to have nucleus hive units available sometime in October.

The effort involved in the treatment is about the same as applying Apivar in my opinion. My hives are located too far from line power to run an extension cord so I use a generator. I have found that in our case, the most efficient way to conduct the treatment is running 6 units at the same time on a Honda EU2000i or EU2200i Converter Generator which is about the maximum continuous safe load these generators can support being the Honda EU2000i is rated for 1600 watts. (each Mitey Mite Killer unit draw approximately 225-250 watts) I put the generator in Eco mode so it is much quieter and uses less gas. I have my hives arranged in groups of 6 and depending upon when I get started can do 12 hives per day without pushing hard. I believe I could do 18 hives per day if I really pushed it. If you are treating just a few hives at a time, the Honda EU1000i Inverter Generator would do just fine. The cheap Harbor Freight generators will work as long as they can produce the required output. 

I use a 50 ft. 12 gauge extension cord with a multi-plug adapter on the end so I can plug in all of my units. 

Once I have completed treatment of all of my hives, (approximate 80) I will post my observations and any of items I think may be of help to others who may decide to give it a try.


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## Fivej

Did you do a sugar or alcohol wash before the treatment? Did you conduct Mike drop counts before the treatment? How will we know if this is effective or not? Thank you for posting. J


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## wildbranch2007

Fivej said:


> Did you do a sugar or alcohol wash before the treatment? Did you conduct Mike drop counts before the treatment? How will we know if this is effective or not? Thank you for posting. J


my question also. and are you going to do a wash after?


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## Live Oak

Right now the wife and I are busier than a 3 legged cat in a sand box. I just don't have time for that right now. Once I have all of the hives run through the first treatment I will start checking mite count. Perhaps if I get some time on a few hives here and there I may. What I can do is place a plastic congregated closer board under the screened bottom boards on some the hives that I treat. The mite drop does not happen immediately in any appreciable amounts. The follow 2 to 3 days tells the story and the total mite drop. The nurse bees should be removing brood that has been infested with mites as well. I am still working to get a good work rhythm and get organized with respect to streamlining all of the steps in the treatment as well as any modifications that I think may help speed things up. This mid to upper 90 degree heat and humidity is tough to work in.


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## Live Oak

Fivej said:


> Did you do a sugar or alcohol wash before the treatment? Did you conduct Mike drop counts before the treatment? How will we know if this is effective or not? Thank you for posting. J


No, I do not do any type of wash before treatment. Yes, I am treating for varroa mites but I am also treating for hive beetles and any potential wax moths or their larva. I have attached the lastest mite kill showing the immediate mite drop upon the end of the thermal treatment which takes 150 minutes. The mite drop continues for several days after the treatment.


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## Robbin

Thanks live oak
please keep us informed... Nothing like actual experience to see if something has a real chance of working.


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## Beeboy01

Our local club here in Florida just purchased two units for the members to use.The plan is to try to get some pre treatment and post treatment mite counts along with long term weekly or monthly counts also. The units are designed to work with one brood box although a second temp sensor can also be used for double brood boxes. One drawback is the honey supers need to be removed for the duration of the treatment but since it is chemical free they can go right back on when done.


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## IsaacJohnson

Varroa mites are the dangerous enemy of honey bees. It weakens the bees and eventually kills them. My neighbor does beekeeping and has faced an infestation of these harmful mites. He has used a special screened bottom board with a sticky floor. This approach did not eliminate the mites but kept their numbers down to an acceptable level. But after few days his beehives were infested again, this time badly. Analysing the urgency, my neighbor decided to consult pest inspection Davis exterminators to help him protect his honey bees.


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## little_john

IsaacJohnson said:


> Analysing the urgency, my neighbor decided to consult pest inspection Davis exterminators to help him protect his honey bees.


.... and ? 

(what's the rest of the story ?)
LJ


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## IsaacJohnson

They performed the thermal treatment.


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## Live Oak

I have finish treating my hives. I believe it was 78 in all. I put just over 55 hours on my Honda EU2000i generator performing all of the treatments. A few hives had really heavy mite drops but most were pretty moderate. On average I I believe I killed about 75 small hive beetles per hive. I have tried a LOT of things to control SHB's and NOTHING I have tried has ever worked as well as the Mite Mite Killer. I am observing the hives in my apiary to see how they respond over time to these treatments and I will post what I observe.


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## Robbin

"I believe I killed about 75 small hive beetles per hive" I didn't see that in the pictures. I'm not impressed with the mite drop, my OAV treatments kill mites, but SHB are the scourge of the southern bee keeper. I put $40 oil trays on every hive and nuc to maintain some control. If you killed 75 hive beetles in a single treatment, it's WELL WORTH THE MONEY, TIME AND EFFORT. 
Not that I don't trust you, I'm going to buy one and a generator based on your comment, but I sure would love to see a picture with a bunch of SHB. 

Have you had a lot of brood die? I would think it would kill all the brood. Frankly it would be worth it. Imagine if you could kill all the SHB in your yard. Over time you could reduce the population. I'm really excited about this. I've only got 14 hives. Anyway to make it work on a nuc? I've got 16 nucs and with fewer bees, are more subsectable to SHB attack. 

Thanks Live oak, I would never have tried this without your reports. Please keep us informed, I'll add my reports once I get one and get a generator.
Thanks again.


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## roddo27846

I was just looking and beehivethermalindustries now has one for a five frame nuc. I am thinking of investing in one for eight frame hives. Should I? Any advice is appreciated.


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## Live Oak

I just got 6 of them sent to me and I tried them on that last warm day we had and they seem to work well. I got a moderate mite drop and killed a good number of SHB's. These units are designed primarily to treat a single nuc box but I was able to reach treatment temperature on my doubles and triples. Now that colder weather has set in, I have been condensing the nucs down to doubles and singles. If you wrap the nuc in some type of insulation, you should be able to treat them in temperatures below 70 degrees F maybe down into the 60's but you may encounter some timed out warm up cycles at these temperatures.


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## sesk

Saskie said:


> I remember reading about it a few years back that you have to keep breaking the cluster, as a cluster of bees will regulate their temperature to not let it get that hot.


This is the main problem when processing inside the hive. I tried this, but the effect, it seemed to me, was small: I used this procedure mainly for the forced last fly-by before winter. And, in my opinion, heat injection from above is more correct than from below, to use typical ventilation of the bees themselves, which blow from the top down.
In Russia, processing in the hive is rarely used, much more often processing in special cassettes, where bees are placed, and these cassettes in special heated boxes. Only in this case, according to supporters of this method, there are no clusters of bees and almost 100% of the result can be achieved.
Here, you may watch the video, although in Russian language, but the person speaks very little, much more is seen from the film itself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aIQMb6Gq0s

At the forum, where heat treatment is discussed, they told the story (http://www.pchelovod.info/index.php?showtopic=13500&view=findpost&p=2617919) that the beekeeper, who has no more than 30 hives, when he had not yet done the full heat treatment of the apiary, had already accumulated 1/3 of the mites in the bucket, like, that's how well it works!


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## GregB

little_john said:


> .... and ?
> 
> (what's the rest of the story ?)
> LJ


Out of my experience, those "pest control" people way too often don't know a difference between honey bees, yellow jackets, or most any wasps.
Too much time wasted going places to remove "honey bees" because pest control people were just..... well, dumb. 
They should carry a pocket book for dummies for a quick reference. Or something...

Control mites? Gosh, better off just doing it yourself best you can.


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## GreenBeehives

Varroa do fine in the south because the bees know how to do evaporative cooling with water and fanning. Lived in Albuquerque for 10 years, many 106F days, but the swamp cooler on the roof cooled the house to 80f with just evaporating water.


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## GreenBeehives

The mites continue to fall for 12 days, because the mites on capped brood die but don't fall until the bee hatches out. They keep hatching out for 12 days after the treatment is done!


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## GreenBeehives

I used The Victor many times. It heats from the top, which allows the queen to go to the lower super which is cooler, and protect the sperm she is carrying. The bees must evaporate water to cool the hive, and they were successful for a short while (10 min.) so we added an entrance reducer. That inhibited the cooling process enough for the heater to raise the temperature to 106F and keep it there for 150 min. The nurse bees seem to stay over the brood at the end of the treatment, but the older foragers beard on the outside of the hive. Still, most of the mites are capped with brood or on nurse bees so treatment did its job. Four times the normal mite drop the day of treatment, and continued mite drop for 12 days as the brood hatched out and cleaned out the mites that died during the treatment but were trapped under the cap until their host hatched out.


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## GreenBeehives

In the last picture you have a lot of dead bees. You must be using the Mighty Mite Killer, and not The Victor. Heating from the bottom up leaves the older bees with harder shells no where to go to get relief from the heat. Heating from the top down gets the nurse bees that won't leave the brood and can take the heat because their shells have not hardened yet. The older bees can exit the hive and beard on the front until the treatment is over, but since most of the mites are on capped brood and the nurse bees most of the mites get killed anyways. The heat permeates the capped brood and kills the mites on the brood as well as the mites on the nurse bees without harming the brood.


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## Kingdaddybee

GreenBeehives said:


> In the last picture you have a lot of dead bees. You must be using the Mighty Mite Killer, and not The Victor. Heating from the bottom up leaves the older bees with harder shells no where to go to get relief from the heat. Heating from the top down gets the nurse bees that won't leave the brood and can take the heat because their shells have not hardened yet. The older bees can exit the hive and beard on the front until the treatment is over, but since most of the mites are on capped brood and the nurse bees most of the mites get killed anyways. The heat permeates the capped brood and kills the mites on the brood as well as the mites on the nurse bees without harming the brood.


ok, 
i've spent 3 years of testing the mighty mite killer. by using a bottom slide in entrance we draw ambient air in and keep plenty of oxygen for the bees. temperature rises so this perfect and our system gives one a perfect 106F thru out the hive body, and with a positive air flow you have no harm to the eggs or capped brood. the capped brood with mites are terminated and in 3-4 days the bees smell the decomposing mites and remove this contaminated larvae. Our system for accuracy has two solid state sensors, one in the thermal belt, another that is placed in the hive body this gives us plus or minus 2 tenths of a degree accuracy. The idea that one can use fans and circulate an accurate and even heat from the top of the hive defys all engineering principals. BHTI soon will be posting independent studies confirming our own studies. We are continuing to test and finding that new opportunities & information will be made available in 2019 that will change how we raise our bees. it's very exciting that testing shows we can terminate the re-productive mite in the hive body and soon to include the phoretic mites ( which live of the bees body fats ) in two additional honey supers. More coming in 2019 to learn more from 600 customers join our facebook page Mighty Mite Thermal Treatment Users.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/275791919813444/?ref=bookmarks


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## Pchristu

Reminds me of that YouTube video with IR photography of a bee colony defending against a giant asian hornet. They clustered around it, built up the internal temp of the cluster to around 110 (if I recall correctly), killing the hornet.


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## newbeek79

View attachment 6-15-18 Mighty Mite Thermal Treatment Case Study_.pdf
This study was just published. I have used the device to treat my 31 hives and have been very happy with the results, my fall and winter bee population and health has been the best we have had.


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## wildbranch2007

newbeek79 said:


> View attachment 46223
> This study was just published. I have used the device to treat my 31 hives and have been very happy with the results, my fall and winter bee population and health has been the best we have had.


we have a local beek that said the same thing, did you do a mite wash b/4 you started and then after the capped brood would have hatched to see if it was effective?


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## Cloverdale

Any more updates on Mighty Mite or the Victor?


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## Live Oak

Not much else I can add other than I can attest to the fact that I have completed over 300 Mighty Mite Killer thermal treatments. They work. Do exactly what the manufacturer states. I am very satisfied with the results I have achieved with my bees. We expanded our apiary to approximately 150 hives this year and using the Mighty Mite Killer saves me a about $1,500 per mite treatment on the cost of Apivar and I achieve the same type of mite kill in 90 - 100 degree temperatures that other beekeepers have to wait to achieve when temperatures drop enough to use MAQS or Formic Pro. Try one you I bet you will like it, or if a local beekeeper club has one or is willing to buy one for their members, borrow it and test it out to verify for yourself how they perform.


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## jmdavis

Mine (Mighty Mite) just arrived yesterday and I hope to get 4 hives ( 2- 10 frame and 2-nucs) treated on Saturday.


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## Cloverdale

Live Oak said:


> Not much else I can add other than I can attest to the fact that I have completed over 300 Mighty Mite Killer thermal treatments. They work. Do exactly what the manufacturer states. I am very satisfied with the results I have achieved with my bees. We expanded our apiary to approximately 150 hives this year and using the Mighty Mite Killer saves me a about $1,500 per mite treatment on the cost of Apivar and I achieve the same type of mite kill in 90 - 100 degree temperatures that other beekeepers have to wait to achieve when temperatures drop enough to use MAQS or Formic Pro. Try one you I bet you will like it, or if a local beekeeper club has one or is willing to buy one for their members, borrow it and test it out to verify for yourself how they perform.


Thanks. Deb


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## snapper1d

Those Mighty Mites are $299 and would need a generator.My provap 110 was $485 and 10# of OA $28 plus and inverter $35.The Mighty Might would take me 125 hours to treat my hives.My provap takes an hour.At 5 treatments still only 5 hours total.A Mighty Mite may work for you if you had 4 hives at home but you would still have 10 hours at home watching them while I have already done a round of treatments and then sitting on the creek bank in the shade drinking cold beer and tight lining for catfish with the rest of my 10 hours!!!


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## Live Oak

snapper1d said:


> Those Mighty Mites are $299 and would need a generator.My provap 110 was $485 and 10# of OA $28 plus and inverter $35.The Mighty Might would take me 125 hours to treat my hives.My provap takes an hour.At 5 treatments still only 5 hours total.A Mighty Mite may work for you if you had 4 hives at home but you would still have 10 hours at home watching them while I have already done a round of treatments and then sitting on the creek bank in the shade drinking cold beer and tight lining for catfish with the rest of my 10 hours!!!


True! OAV is indeed a excellent treatment for broodless hives and to get an excellent knock down treatment against phoretic varroa mites. The rest of the story and the truth is that the vast majority (studies indicate in the 90% range) of varroa mites (reproductive varroa mites) reside in the capped brood of the brood nest comb. OAV does little to NOTHING to address this and inspite of OAV's excellent performance against phoretic varroa mites, the reproductive varroa mites are able to recover their numbers rapidly and endanger the survival of the hive especially if not properly treated in the Fall going into Winter. The Mighty Mite Killer DOES kill the reproductive varroa mites and totally disrupts the reproductive cycle of the varroa mite to achieve a MUCH more effective comprehensive varroa mite treatment. 

Please DO enjoy "sitting on the creek bank in the shade drinking cold beer and tight lining for catfish with the rest of my 10 hours!!!" I'll gladly put in the extra hours and work to get my bees treated with thermal treatment. Next Spring when 40% - 60% of your bees are dead or in a very weak condition due to varroa mite infestation and virus's, I will be in my apiary splitting hives like a made man to stave off swarming and taking advantage of an early Spring nectar flow. Since I have begun using the Mighty Mite Killer as opposed to chemical treatments, not only have I saved a good bit of money on chemical treatments, I have doubled my numbers of hives each season. This season, I ran out of woodware to make all the full sized hives I wanted and had to used nucs until I get the new stuff wax dipped. 

I have 2 ProVap 110's and they are an excellent quality mite treatment tool. I am not against OAV, on the contrary, I believe it is very wise to rotate and change up varroa mite treatment regardless of what type of mite one decides to use. That having been said, for my late Fall varroa mite treatment going into Winter, that last treatment of the season will be the Mighty Mite Killer. If for some reason I am not able to get this done, my 2nd choice is MAQS/Formic Pro. OAV being very good for what it was intended to do is NOT a good treatment to last the 5 - 6 months of late Fall/Winter/early Spring. You will likely have to retreat at least some hives during this time period and treating with OAV when the bees are in cluster is not particularly effective as compared to when the bees are out of cluster in temperatures warm enough to allow it. 

Also, one should include the cost of a full face respirator equipped with organic acid rated filters ($350 - $400) (spare set of 3M P100 cartridge filters $20) (pair of welder's gloves $20) along with the cost of the ProVap 110, 10# of OA $28 plus and inverter $35.

So..........when including the FULL costs of operation of BOTH the MMK and OAV. A cheap Harbor Freight generator Tailgator 900 watt generator is about $125. The MMK cost $300. The beekeeper is ready to roll on mite treatment, $425 total cost. OAV ProVap 110 $485, 10# of OA $28, inverter $35, full face respirator $350, spare filters $20, welder's gloves $20. OAV total cost $938 call it an even $1,000 if you include the cost of a battery (not real big on prolonged running of gas equipment around my hives) The beekeeper is ready to roll.

Both of the above are excellent treatments when applied in their designed lanes of fire. The costs are NOT made up, they are what is basically required to safely conduct the treatment. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. 

Even if you opt to go with a better inverter generator the cost is $167 vs the $125 for the el cheapo HB generator. https://www.homedepot.com/p/LIFAN-Energy-Storm-700-600-Watt-40cc-Gasoline-Powered-Inverter-Generator-with-CARB-ESI860i-CA/305048506

Factor into this that the MMK wreaks havoc on small hive beetles as well. I can't say whether OAV does or not but I have read NO evidence of this. 

When you compare "Apple to Apples" with respect to OAV vs. MMK thermal treatment, it may give you cause to reconsider. How much are YOU spending on chemical treatments and over time, what are their results showing? The Mighty Mite Killer is NOT the magic bullet against varroa mites in beekeeping. It IS a very effective, chemical FREE, and alternative treatment for beekeepers to employ in their IPM program. Again, I will suggest, try one.......you might find you like it and achieves the goals you are working for. :thumbsup:

On edit: I DID leave out the cost of electrical extension cords which would be required for both types of treatments. I would guess the costs would be the same for both.


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## snapper1d

Live Oak I spend an hour treating 50 hives and I treat 5 times at 5 days apart so its not just a one time treatment leaving all the mites under the cappings.I dont lose 40%-60% of my hives either.I split like crazy during the spring and sell nucs. So if you treat 50 hives it takes you 125 hours.Over 5 days constant running and treating with your MMK.That a lot of hours and gasoline in your generator.OA is cheap also. 10 lbs is over 4500 grams and a heck of a lot of treatments.


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## Cloverdale

Well Live Oak, I need to chime in here. I have a sustainable apiary; I haven’t bought bees since 
2016, with the exception of a few Sas and Mike P. queens last year and Mike Palmer queens this year. 
Out of 18 hives overwintering, including a dbl nuc, I lost 4 hives; 2 were late caught swarms that died in Jan. I used Formic Pro in August, then Ox vap, last treatment in November. Same success rate with overwintering since I became sustainable; I also live as you can see in the cold western Catskills Mtns of NY, whose winter lasted into April. I’m with Snapper on this one. 
I’d rather go fishing AND have healthy productive bees. Deb


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