# What to do with a tank full of bees?



## WD9N (Dec 28, 2014)

This is what I have found...





















I located this feral colony and have observed them 12/28/14. They seem to be doing well, I have observed bees flying in and out. The tank seems to have a lot of comb in it, so hopefully they will survive the IL winter. So far the weather has been very mild, but January and February will be the toughest here.

If they survive how can I get them in a hive next spring?


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## SugarbeatCo (Dec 27, 2014)

I would gently cut the tank open and then cut out the comb and use rubber bands to secure it into some frames. Try and locate the queen and catch her in a hair clip style cage and put her on a frame for a few days, so the bees don't try and move back... Once you get them all to the hive body, wait until night time and block the entrance of the hive body and move them to your desired location... You can see a ton of JP the bee man's videos on youtube, he must have a hundred or so of doing this type of "cut-out". https://www.youtube.com/user/JPthebeeman


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## WD9N (Dec 28, 2014)

SugarbeatCo,

First, I am a total newbie to beekeeping, so am looking for all the information I can get. That said, I have been reading and watching videos for some time because I have long had an interest in bees. I have been around several wild colonies, within inches of the entrance, to observe the bees. I have never tried to open one up, I don't have a veil or suit.

My concern at the moment is whether the colony will survive the winter in a metal enclosure and if they have enough honey stores. I have entertained the thought of trying to give the tank some insulation for the winter and reducing the size of the opening. Any thoughts or advice to that end would be appreciated.


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## SugarbeatCo (Dec 27, 2014)

I feel like I should post a disclaimer and say, I am by no means an expert or anything.. My advice is just simply my opinion. 
With your last comment considered I would maybe shift my focus on finding someone locally to assist with this. I haven't met many beekeepers that would mind a phone call to discuss it at the least. Since you don't own a vale or any protective clothing, your first experience handling the bees could surely be enough to leave a bad taste in your mouth. Not to say it cant be done, but you can bet on a few stings. If you were to call around and explain the situation, and express your interest in getting started bee keeping, there is a good chance someone in your area could help you with it. In an ideal situation you could have a local beekeeper come and pretty much do the cut out for you, and most beeks probably wouldn't mind walking you through the process whilst offering a bit of mentoring while they are at it. Offering a bit of compensation wouldn't hurt your chances.. There's a lot to know about bees and keeping them in a box but it is a very interesting and rewarding adventure if you go at it well informed. If you have found your way here you are off to a great start, there is a lot of good info.. 
As to the question of if they are able to make it through the winter or not, that's pretty hard to guess with the amount of info available.. You cant really get them any usable food through that gas cap hole if they are already clustered up, and if they are still flying they are doing all they can to prepare for winter.... I guess you could shovel a bit of fondant in there and hope for the best.. I wouldn't attempt to block the entrance in any way, they do need plenty of ventilation. I would let it be and see if it makes it. If they have been there long enough to build enough comb and establish the colony well enough, they will make it.. Those are the kind of bees you want really. If they don't make it, you can always try your hand with some swarm traps come spring, and get started from there, you already know they are in your area.. It looks to me like there is one single row of comb from the pictures, and I cannot see any bees. That is not all that good, so I wouldn't get my hopes up to high if I were you. If they have a lot more comb that I am not seeing and a decent cluster of bees, then they stand a fighting chance at making it through a harsh climate's winter.. You can try and insulate it a little, but its pretty much in the hands of the bees.. If I was in your area I would help you out, and see if they could you started. But from here, I can only wish you the best of luck and if you have any further questions, never hurts to ask.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

WD9N said:


> This is what I have found...
> 
> 
> If they survive how can I get them in a hive next spring?


Well, I can tell you a similar story, how it went for me.
First spring after I decided to keep bees & ordered order NUC's, I also advertised to collect swarms.
I was offered "( bees in a tank)", 60 miles away. I was a newbie, my NUC's delivery date was delayed again, so why not. I drove the 60 miles to get these bee's after work on a weekday in May, with my wife , prepared with all my home made bee gear.( hoody-sweatshirts , tull veiled bug hats, & inappropriate gloves.) The donor must have told me what to expect, since I showed up with a plan.
bees were in a long round tank about half buried on its side in a thicket of privet hedge. said he found it cleaning up & did not want his kids to get stung. I covered the "one small opening" with a piece of screen wire held in place with duck tape.then worked a couple of ratchet load binder straps under the tank. I put a piece of pipe on top secured with the straps for a handle & we were good, except the tank was incredibly heavy. had to cut a trail out of the jungle & carry it about 50 feet.
My wife could not lift her end, but the donor helped, & we got it on the truck. I showed up with a degree wheel type level & a compass. this tank happened to fall exactly east -west, with the open bung hole in the east end. sank into the dirt exactly level lengthwise. 
We got it on the truck & braced it up so the top was still the top , & would not roll around. hauled it 60 miles home, got there about 10 pm, had to get it off the truck so I could go to work the next day. started calling my relatives to see who I could recruit for help. It is amazing how many of my relatives are "allergic" to bees. Finally got a first cousins daughters estranged husband to help.
settled the tank exactly level, exactly east-west, under a large shady privet tree/bush. yes it was a bit beyond the middle of the night when I finally got home.
on the way home from work the next day I went by the tank with a hive body & frames, top & bottom, but with a round hole in the side, & a piece of clear tubing, and my roll of duck tape. a couple of concrete blocks to set the hive on.
I found a big pile of bees on the ground near the front of the tank. ( we had removed the screen last night). I was pretty frightened. put on my hoody & bug hat, my open weave white gloves & slapped the hive together facing East near the opening i the tank. taped the clear hose in place between the tank opening the box, then started trying to scoop up the wad of bees with my big fuzzy gloves (that the bees got snagged in) & dumping them in the box. I had not got stung yet, but this method of transferring bees was _not_ working, so I broke off about a foot long leafy branch from the privet tree & started soaking it in the pile of bees then shaking the bees off the branch into the bee hive. When I got the pile of bees on the ground down to about one or two bees thick, I noticed one be that had something wrong with it, it was too long. I tried to grab it, but it managed to get airborne & flew away. no kidding.
I did not block the entrance to my hive body. I did notice some bees in the clear tube back to the tank, but they were trying to fly toward the sun, so I covered the tube with a wiping rag I had in the truck & secured it with more duct tape.
I think I took the lid off the box & looked at them daily until the weekend. there were (some) bees there, they started a piece of comb or two , but nothing that looked like the pictures I had seen of eggs, or larva.
next weekend I came back with my hoody & bug hat, my open weave white gloves, a portable generator a 4 inch grinder with a metal cutting cut off wheel. actually 4 or 5 masonry cut off wheels I had used to cut metal anyway, just not efficiently. ( and my very patient wife) It became obvious that the wheels I had was not enough to get the job done, so I unloaded the generator off the truck & sent the aforementioned wife to the local auto parts store where she found some real metal cutting cutoff wheels & bought all they had. these worked pretty good, just one or two of them finished the job. I still have metal cut off wheels from that batch.
After we got the tank split , I pried the top off with a jack handle. there was a foot or so of old combs, crosswise, like the pictures of top bar hives. a lot of the comb was dark & brittle, and there were no bees in the tank. I guess they liked the box better. the bottom of the tank was 1/2 full of black "dirt" and there was another opening I had not spotted before.
As to the bees in the box, eventually I found a local beekeeper who sold me a couple of frames of bees & brood, & showed me what a queen looked like. I sprayed these & my "tank bees" with peppermint flavored sugar water & installed them. they made queen cells, but I didn't see any queens or eggs, so I got a mail order queen, but now I found eggs, so I stole a frame of bees from this box, took them 20 miles home with me & introduced the queen. must have released too soon, because she disappeared. stole a frame of brood from the tank hive, they made some queen cells, but the queen apparently did not come back from a mating flight. apparently I developed a laying worker in this box.
The original box with the "tank bees", I used for an attempted trap out which was about as spectacular of a mess as the first part of this story, I ended up with an empty box with a little comb in it. Finally, I took delivery of my prepaid NUC's in mid July.
Unfortunately, I did not make any of this up. Get some one who knows what they are doing to help, remember, package bees are around $100. good luck, & if you want to keep bees, don't give up. and yes, I am still a newbie.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

WD9N said:


> This is what I have found... If they survive how can I get them in a hive next spring?


This is a simple one. Wait until Spring, good honey flow. Trap them out, then cut out the comb and sell it to get you funds to buy the equipment you need. 

If you haven't done a trapout, send me an e-mail, [email protected] and I will send you a 9 page guide with photos that will show and tell you how to do it.

cchoganjr


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## WD9N (Dec 28, 2014)

Tech,

That is great comedy, wish you had it all on video! Oh, the tribulations of learning! Thanks for sharing.

As far as this tank of bees, what you see in the photos is only the neck and the tank is offset from it. I saw several bees peeking out at me and a couple flew out and then back in shortly after. The temp. was just above freezing, so I wouldn't expect very much activity.

I could probably get the tank out of the truck and move it easily, if the back and bottom aren't rusted out too bad. I wouldn't want it to fall apart just as it is lifted. Then, it could be wrapped and placed in an old shed at my house until spring, but I really think it best to let them winter where they are.

I have considered just placing swarm traps in the area and trying to catch a swarm from this colony, or trying a trapout over the neck and into a box via a tube. Having never worked with that method, I am not sure of the odds of getting the queen. I keep thinking about my cordless saws-all and cutting them out so I can retrieve the comb.

Thank you both for the advice and suggestions. I am going to get a veil at the least, I don't mind stings much, but not in the face. I have been stung by many little critters on the farm, yellow jackets, bald-faced hornets, red paper wasps(I personally think they hurt the worst!), and even the occasional honey bee. I have a tyvek suit, will that work for bees?

I have watched several of JP the bee man's videos, even my wife found them interesting, although I don't know that she will ever get very close to the bees. I am in contact with a couple beekeeping groups in the area, and plan to attend the next meetings. One is having a "Bee School" starting in January, so I will be getting more information soon.


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## flhultra (Jun 14, 2013)

forget cordless to big of a job.
grinders and saws cause heat and vibrations, if they make it next spring take them home so you can use power tools that will not die part way through the job.
I have used an inline air shears for body panels before and do not remember them creating a lot of vibrations nothing like a saw anyway .
try this for a thought, someone may make one in electric also. 
( www.harborfreight.com/inline-air-shears-98833.html )

and get yourself a decent priced suit (don't spend a whole lot) or very least a hooded veil built into a jacket and light coveralls good non vented gloves.
you will be moving around a lot, and you will piss these guys off severely.
do not want to scare yourself off on the first one ( with a lot of stings ) it will be a job , take all day if you have to .
but for now plenty of time to watch JP the beeman and Cleo videos 
good luck.


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

+1 on what Cleo said. Since the bees have to go through the one hole it will be easy to trap them out.


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## thewhiterhino (Oct 5, 2014)

tech.35058 said:


> Well, I can tell you a similar story, how it went for me. ~~~ Unfortunately, I did not make any of this up. Get some one who knows what they are doing to help, remember, package bees are around $100. good luck, & if you want to keep bees, don't give up. and yes, I am still a newbie.


:lpf::lpf::lpf:


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## WD9N (Dec 28, 2014)

flhultra said:


> forget cordless to big of a job.
> grinders and saws cause heat and vibrations, if they make it next spring take them home so you can use power tools that will not die part way through the job.
> I have used an inline air shears for body panels before and do not remember them creating a lot of vibrations nothing like a saw anyway ....


I could cut the side open on the tank with the tools I have, no problem. No, they will not be happy if I do. Yes, I will have a suit before I would try this.

I guess a question that comes to mind is, should I capture this colony, or just catch a swarm off next spring and let them be?


Cleo,

What is the likelihood of getting the queen with a trapout? If I don't get the queen, do I just transfer the brood and hope they raise a new queen?


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

WD9N said:


> This is what I have found...
> So far the weather has been very mild, but January and February will be the toughest here.
> 
> If they survive how can I get them in a hive next spring?


You did not mention travel time to & from this tank of bees, or whether the truck is a hull with no doors or windows, or if the glass is intact.
travel time = inconvenience. what value do you place on these bees, vs the amount of time you spend acquiring them.

If the glass is intact in the truck, the bees will probably move out next summer, think how hot your car gets with the windows up in July.

Considering all my previous "success", here is an interesting "what if". ( do not omit all the previous advice about getting help from a local beekeeper)

What if you constructed a hive for them, & ran an opaque tube or hose from the tank mouth into the back of the box, so the bees have to pass through the box to go in or out. keep the hose as short as possible. it would be really nice if you could put 3 or 4 frames of drawn comb in there, along with all the other frames. Make some winter feeding sugar candy & put on top of the frame bars just like it was a weak hive. My bees always took the cooked sugar even if they still had honey.
I would seriously think about making a styro-foam cover for this box, or wrapping it or what ever you guys do in your state. 
take a large sheet of plastic, & loosely wrap as much of the tank as you can. the food in the hive box will keep them from starving if they are light, & the air space between the plastic & the tank will help hold heat in. if the plastic is clear, will the tank absorb heat from sun?
Use your bee suit, gloves & smoker, check the box occasionally. every couple of weeks. I expect the bees will be collecting the sugar for the hive, if not hanging out out in there. Also, hungry bees are very defensive, just in case . so having plenty of food will help them be calmer, too.
I would not expect the bees to make any new comb from candy board, & I am sure it is too cold to feed syrup of any mix, so it would really be great to get some drawn comb in there. perhaps a local beekeeper would sell you some frames of it. it will be pretty fragile while it is cold. maybe some slumgum to make it smell good to the bees. see if they move out there on their own.
Suppose you cut a hole small enough to cover with duct tape, or sized so that you could stop it up with a wooden plug.
Then get some of the juice that goes with the fume clearing boards, put it on a cloth, hang it in the hole & wait a bit. If this were done when the hive has no brood, I would expect queen & all to abscond at least out to the prepared box, which has food, & is relatively warm. you might even make an inner cover out of plexiglass, or a rim covered with plastic so you could get a peek at their progress. 
one concern would be that they might abscond clear out of the county, & not stop in your nice box.
I like screened bottom boards, that would provide quit a bit of ventilation, after they got out of the tank. if using the fume board juice, I would probably block the entrance while I did it, just in case. then when I opened it, I would have a queen excluder screen over it, at least until she started laying . be aware that a new skinny queen can sometimes pass through a queen excluder. or maybe even an old one that is slimmed down to swarm.
Another concern would be that the queen would not abandon her nest. and might be lost. or accidentally mashed. I am not sure there would be a good fix for that situation. About the only fix would be to order a Hawaiian Queen, & use the long method of introduction from Dave Cushman's website.
So much for what if. Experienced beekeepers will tell you why not to do this, I am just a newbie, who might try any thing.

About suits ... My wife & I have 3 between us. After starting with hoody sweat shirts, I bought a "real" canvass jumpsuit style with a zip on veil hat.
bought it at the state bee symposium, dont recall the vendor.IT was about $40, but I was going to be a big bad swarm catching bee keeper. main annoyance is that the leg openings are not big enough for my boots, so I have to sit down to get it on & off. It was easier to get on & off when wearing tennis shoes, but the bees sting me through my socks, so I will keep wearing boots.
my wife bought a "ventilated" jacket with zip on hood. much cooler in summer. I tried it & bought one for me. one is Mann Lake, the other is Dadant. ( I think these were about $80 each )
The short jackets, hive tools , & brushes fall out of the pockets .
 I have never been stung through the ventilated jackets they are about 1/4 inch thick. I have been stung through the jump suit, but I think I was just wearing a t-shirt under it, & bee got me on the arm where the cloth was against my skin.
I have had a bee in my bonnet with all three of these garments. then they stung me, but they were already inside. just so you know, I am the guy who is working in the bee yard later in the evening than he should, or right before a thunderstorm, or left it too late to feed the bees so they were hungry, and "defensive". Your results may vary. Jackets ... if you pull them down so that they protect your bottom & upper thighs, the bees get under the jacket between your legs.
I would probably try the tyveck over other clothing, if the wrists & ankle openings are elastic,the wrist have finger loops & you can secure the veil. IF you do this, let us know how it works out.
Gloves ... after I ditched the white fuzzy gloves that trapped the bees, I was going to be a bare handed beekeeper. that lasted until I got a good sting on one finger that made me go get checked for sting allergies. also refer to the line above about working bees too late in the day. My wife bought some "beekeeper gloves, but they are hard to get on & off, & to work with. My current solution is to wear medium size 7 mill thick nitrile exam gloves ( from HarborFreight) over those "brown jersey"cotton work gloves. with the exam gloves over the jersey gloves, I can pick up a bee, which I can not do with the "beekeeper" leather gloves. if you have large hands, try the size "large"
The bees can & will sting through either the cotton gloves alone, or the nitrile gloves alone. or if they get torn. they are pretty tight to get on, but I can work in them, & just get another when the outer glove gets torn.
You also really need a smoker. I have one to ride in the truck with me, & one stays home with my wife, but thats just us. we got the biggest ones we could for about $40-45 each. there are some sold on Ebay for $20, with free shipping, but I have not tried those.
If you are unsure about your sting sensitivity, stock up on your over the counter sting response stuff & do not work alone until you have been stung a few times. Fat Bee Man says you can get a stinger out by wiping it with a cotton tee shirt. I always get excited, grab it & inject all the venom into myself. Dont do that  Don't forget the local experienced beekeeper for help. try promising him a split later in the year when you are successful, that would work for me.
Good luck!


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

Before you go attacking this tank you should at least read Cleo Hogans stuff. If his method works as well as he claims, and I believe it does, you should be able to get several colony starts out of that tank next summer and still have the colony in the tank.

If you want to make a small access into the tank without a lot of vibration try taking off the fuel gage flange (the round thing held to the tank with six or so screws two thirds of the way to the other side of the truck at the top of the tank). There is stuff attached to the other side of the flange that the bees may have built into the comb, If so you can cut that stuff off of the flange with a strong pair of nippers and push it back into the tank. It wouldn't take to much engineering to come up with a way to feed syrup through that hole when it gets a little warmer.

A couple of bales of straw against the tank, or most any insulation you can improvise might be helpful, you could just fill up the cab with anything you can rake up.

Have fun, good luck-
Bill


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

WD9N said:


> Cleo, What is the likelihood of getting the queen with a trapout? If I don't get the queen, do I just transfer the brood and hope they raise a new queen?


The probability of getting the queen in a trapout has many variables. Let me explain a few.

Best chance is if you can situate the trap inches or only a couple of feet from the feral brood nest, and a horizontal tube/pipe, tunnel for the bees to exit/enter through the trap.

Best chance if you can seal all entrances/exits except one; the one that goes through your trap.

Best chance is during a very good honey flow when the queen is looking for any place to lay more eggs. The entire theory behind getting the queen is based on fooling the queen into using the trap as another brood chamber that is horizontal rather than vertical.

Best chance is if you have a frame of unsealed brood to put in the trap to draw the queen into the trap to investigate where the brood came from,(she will be expecting to find another queen) and

Best chance is if she wishes to establish her dominance over the trap and lays eggs in the frames inside the trap.

Best chance if you can check the trap after 18 hours and then each 12 -24 hours after introduction of the unsealed brood to find her on the frames in your trap.

If you have all or most of these, then probability is normally from 70 to 90 percent chance of getting her.

Least chance is when there is little or no buildup of brood in the feral colony, or the queen does not need the room to lay more eggs.

Least chance later in any bee season when brood rearing is slowed, or there is a dearth of nectar.

Least chance when your tube/tunnel is too far from the feral brood nest. (I like to guess about 2 1/2 feet or more.)

Least chance is when the queen can run back into the feral brood nest from the trap each time you check to find her.

With two or more of these against you, the probability falls to 20 to 45 percent.

If you don't care if you eliminate the feral colony you can install a one way funnel (screen cone, plastic etc) and sooner or later during the trapout the queen will exit the feral brood nest. This will occur when the bees/honey/pollen dwindles and there is not sufficient bees or stores to continue rearing bees in the feral brood nest. 

The beauty of using this system to eliminate colonies over the traditional screen cone method is; When the feral colony is reduced, and the queen absconds with the remaining bees, the bees and frames in the trap is the same as in the feral colony, whereas in the screen cone method, the trap box placed nearby will not have the same odor, the bees will be foreign to the queen since they have not been back into the feral colony for several days, and thus, the queen may take what bees remain in the feral colony, form a swarm and take off, landing somewhere in the general area, but not necessarily going into a box of bees sitting outside her original colony.

I do very little elimination trapping. I normally use this method to take starts, to get a feral queen, (let them make themselves a new one), let the queen lay eggs in the trap, then move her back into the feral colony and let the trapped bees make a queen from the genetics of the feral queen.

This is a long winded way of saying, there are lots of variables in getting the queen, but even if you don't get her, you can often get her genetics.

Hope this is helpful. If you have additional questions, just let me know.

cchoganjr


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## WD9N (Dec 28, 2014)

Maybe I am crazy for what I am thinking, but this will be my first bees. If I can't get the queen from the colony, I would be sunk, so perhaps a cutout is in order.

The tank isn't that large, so I think they will be cramped and throw a swarm this spring. (Wishful thinking perhaps?) So, here I am reading and learning and trying to guess what the bees might do.

Can anyone shed light on the tyvek suits? I had one given to me, do they work as a bee suit or is that trouble waiting?


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## WD9N (Dec 28, 2014)

Tech,

As far as the truck, it is a shell, only the windshield and back glass are in it and they have holes shot in them. The interior is mostly gone, that tank in the first photo was actually mounted behind the seat that is now gone. To remove the entire thing would be a matter of two straps and sliding it to one side to free the filler neck and then it is free of the truck. I could probably plug the filler neck and I found one hole in the bottom that would need sealed and it looks like I could transport it. It is only about 1/2 mile from my house, so travel is no problem.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Yes, trapping bees without some unsealed brood from another hive drastically cuts down on probability of getting the queen, and takes longer to get enough bees, of the right mix of bees, for a good start.

Even if they do cast a swarm, and even if you have swarm boxes in the area, it is not a sure thing that the bees will go into your swarm boxes. It is hit and miss at best. You have nothing to lose by placing them out, because even if your tank bees do not swarm, or do not go into the swarm boxes, think about it, those bees came from somewhere, so, perhaps that colony will also cast a swarm, and, maybe they or other colonies in the area may go into your swarm boxes.

Trapping bees is a very good learning experience, but, it works a lot better if you have some experience with bees. A cut out is much, much, more demanding, and, I would suggest you find someone to help with your first cutout.

If I can help in any way, just let me know.

cchoganjr


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## shannonswyatt (May 7, 2012)

WD9N said:


> Maybe I am crazy for what I am thinking, but this will be my first bees. If I can't get the queen from the colony, I would be sunk, so perhaps a cutout is in order.
> 
> The tank isn't that large, so I think they will be cramped and throw a swarm this spring. (Wishful thinking perhaps?) So, here I am reading and learning and trying to guess what the bees might do.
> 
> Can anyone shed light on the tyvek suits? I had one given to me, do they work as a bee suit or is that trouble waiting?


Keep in mind that as this is going to be your first go on a cutout there is a decent probability of loosing the queen and just making a god awful mess of the thing. If you can wait until the spring you could do a Hogan trapout and purchase a queen, or better yet, a queen cell and then you would be in good shape. 

Tyvek suits are wonderful for the price, but for me I wouldn't use them for a cutout. They are very hot and don't breath, but other than that they are fine.

Heed Cleo, he knows what he is talking about. You have a few months before you start this, plenty of time to find someone in a bee club that has experience and would help you out.


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## WD9N (Dec 28, 2014)

The temps are dropping pretty low in the coming days here, so I packed several bags with straw, sort of like pillows, and tucked the colony in for the winter. I can see the cluster down in the tank just off the filler neck, so I am guessing they are still near the brood area for now. Still moving around at 28F.

I am still reading and pondering what action to take next spring.


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## WD9N (Dec 28, 2014)

Cleo C. Hogan Jr said:


> If I can help in any way, just let me know.


Your information is a great help, THANK YOU.

I have started the local "Bee School" and talked with many of the beekeepers. A couple are willing to advise, not sure they want to be hands on, with doing a cut out.

I have also talked with two other people who have colonies in houses that they would like removed. One house is older and in the process of being remodeled. The owner says I can cut the bees out and he will take care of the rest as it is getting remodeled anyway, YES!

Looks like I will have bees this year! :banana:


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