# Russell SKC bees



## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I now have some hives of the SKC bees, and I'm getting ready to expand. I've only had them since last year, so school is still out on them. I like their gentleness, and they seem to be wintering well. At least the ones that had a chance to build up for winter.

I would like to know, from those that have had them longer, what their experiences are with them in comparison to other genetics that you have kept.
1. Compare their overwintering abilities, small, medium, or large cluster? (It's been too uncommon of a year here to learn anything.)
2. Robbing, how do they compare to the regular Italians?
3. How aggressive are they with SHB? 
4. How do they tolerate, or combat Varrora?
5. How fast do they build up in the spring? (please give your location)
6. Burr comb builders?
7. Heavy propolis?
8. Swarm cell building?
9. Overall hygene of the hive?
10. Last but not least, Honey production?

Feel free to add any other experienced facts to the answers, as I'm sure I need to ask more questions.

I would be particularly interested in comparision to the non Cordovan Sunkist.
If I don't like what I hear here, I will be ordering Carniolans!


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

1. Compare their overwintering abilities, small, medium, or large cluster? (It's been too uncommon of a year here to learn anything.)
We don't have much of a Winter here, so not a good test from my location.

2. Robbing, how do they compare to the regular Italians?
Similar to usual Italian robbing behavior, but they aren't as persistent as others I've dealt with, if a colony is queenright and has much of a population, they can pretty much fend off the robbers.

3. How aggressive are they with SHB?
No SHB here in Tucson, yet.

4. How do they tolerate, or combat Varrora?
I've never treated for Varroa, and haven't seen it cause an excessive amount of problems

5. How fast do they build up in the spring? (please give your location)
I've been feeding pollen sub and a little bit of 1:1 since the flow slowed in the late Summer. Most kept some brood, some are building fast, now that there is also a wildflower honey flow beginning. (Tucson, Arizona)

6. Burr comb builders?
Very little burr/brace comb.

7. Heavy propolis?
Low use of propolis.

8. Swarm cell building?
Not had a chance to notice, yet. I do plan to keep some Nucs as swarm sources.

9. Overall hygene of the hive?
Good.

10. Last but not least, Honey production?
Not had a chance to notice, yet. Should be able to observe that, this season.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Thanks Joseph,
I was sure hoping for some feedback on this genetic from others and I'm sure you would like some also. Hopefully some will comment.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

1. Compare their overwintering abilities, small, medium, or large cluster? (It's been too uncommon of a year here to learn anything.)

>My experiences are limited, let me start off with that. I had a total loss this winter, so I can't say my observations are typical. But, I thought the clusters were much larger going into winter than a few of the other hives I had.

2. Robbing, how do they compare to the regular Italians?

>I had VERY HEAVY robbing during last summer's dearth. It's hard to tell if it came from the Sunkist (non-Cordovan) or from other hives (I had over six different genetics at one point).

3. How aggressive are they with SHB? 

>I noticed no SHB issues.

4. How do they tolerate, or combat Varrora?

>I've been told they combat them well. I must say that I picked up one of the queen cages that I ordered from Russell's that came in the mail and had one queen and 7 or so attendants in it, and a min later I noticed a mite crawling on my hand. 

But, I did have heavy varroa issues last summer, which was a major contributor to my total loss. I didn't treat (at all) so it's probably fair to say it was my fault and not the genetics. Or it could have been the non-Russell genetics that acted as varroa factories, only to move hives once they died out. Who knows. (Although some of the hives that died out were treatment free for three or more years).

5. How fast do they build up in the spring? (please give your location)

>Don't know. Received mine too late in the spring to give an accurate accounting.

6. Burr comb builders?

>Very low.

7. Heavy propolis?

>Very low.

8. Swarm cell building?

>Very low.

9. Overall hygene of the hive?

>Much cleaner than a few of the other neighboring hives. Noticeably so. 

10. Last but not least, Honey production?

>More productive than my average non SK hive.

I would be particularly interested in comparision to the non Cordovan Sunkist.

>I don't have any experience with Sunksit vs. SKC, so I can't really compare the two.

All in all, I was very pleased with the genetics. I think I need to incorporate more treatments (or any, lol) as well as better robbing defenses. But he underlying genetics are phenomenal.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Thanks Specialkayme,
I am bumping this back to the top in hope of getting more input. Anyone?


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## LT (Aug 17, 2006)

Propolis is a sign of hygene


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

LT said:


> Propolis is a sign of hygene


Yes, I guess for the bees it would be, but for us it's messy and annoying. Thanks for the input.


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## SmokeEater2 (May 10, 2011)

Good thread! I've ordered a Sunkist queen fora trial run this year so everyone's experience with them is appreciated.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I have a few and I like them fine. They are fairly mild, they aren't runners and are very productive. I don't seem to have a robbing problem out of them, but I don't out of any of my bees. They seem to be wintering fine too. When you order, you should specify whether you want northern or southern select. He has strains aclimatized for both. If the purchaser doesn't specify, they try to use the appropriate one.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Mine are the hardest working bees in my yard - out in force earlier and work later than any of the others. For what it's worth...


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

:updateavid,
Agreed, mine are the first and last to fly. Even more than my 1 hive of Moonbeams.

I went thru 8 of my 9 hives yesterday, (71 degrees and sunny). I had 6 SKC hives, 1 Moonbeam, 1 Pollenater, and 1 swarm queen. 1 of the SKC queens didn't make it thru the winter, no queen, no eggs, no larvae, or brood. The Pollenater was the same, except there is scattered drone brood (looks like a laying worker hive). The remaining 5 SKC hives are strong and ready to explode with an average of 4-5 frames of bees and 4 frames of brood. 2 is low on stores (mountain camp on top), but they are bringing in nectar every warm day (which is most this year, a very warm winter here). The Moonbeam hive is set to explode and has suprised me by having grown in size thru the winter. They were a very small cluster going into winter and I didn't expect them to make it, also their stores were low and now have mountain camp on top as well. They are also bringing in nectar. The swarm queen was combined with a strong queenless hive in late fall, and isn't laying well, (shes also small) and will be replaced as soon as possible. If the weather doesn't get, and stay cold then I think that I can say that 7 of nine made it thru the winter, and the reason for losing the 2 was the queen didn't make it for some unknown reason. Good Luck!!


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## ChristopherA (Jul 20, 2010)

1. Compare their overwintering abilities, small, medium, or large cluster? (It's been too uncommon of a year here to learn anything.)

Larger than normal cluster however used a lot less of the stores. 

2. Robbing, how do they compare to the regular Italians?

Have not noticed a robbing problem. I keep anywhere from 8 to 14 hives in a yard. I would say they are no better or worse than italians in my opinion.

3. How aggressive are they with SHB?

Have not noticed a SHB problem.

4. How do they tolerate, or combat Varrora?

Have not had an issue with varroara.

5. How fast do they build up in the spring? (please give your location)

I over wintered in double deeps. My last hive inspections was a few days ago and I might have to put on a 3rd deep. They were busting with bees this early in the year. I only went into the top deeps and noticed 6 to 8 frames of brood from frame edge to frame edge top to bottom.

6. Burr comb builders?

Have not noticed the much burr comb.

7. Heavy propolis?

Propolis was very lite.

8. Swarm cell building?

Havent had a chance to see swarm cell building as of yet.

9. Overall hygene of the hive?

They keep the hive cleaner than most of my other strains. They are constently taking out the trash.

10. Last but not least, Honey production?

Unknown, will let you know later this year.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

This is my first winter with them and second winter overall. 5 hives 1 SK, 1 SKC, 1 Caucasian, 1 Carni, 1 Italian/Russian. And had 1 carni that died out late fall due to queen failure. 

1. Compare their overwintering abilities, small, medium, or large cluster? (It's been too uncommon of a year here to learn anything.)
Larger than my other hives.
2. Robbing, how do they compare to the regular Italians?
Not much in the way of robbing.
3. How aggressive are they with SHB?
NA
4. How do they tolerate, or combat Varrora?
No problems so far
5. How fast do they build up in the spring? (please give your location)
Good buildup last year, despite a late start in the spring.
6. Burr comb builders?
Not a lot
7. Heavy propolis?
Not a lot
8. Swarm cell building?
Not so far
9. Overall hygiene of the hive?
Good
10. Last but not least, Honey production?
Will know this year.

They fly at the lowest temp of all my hives with minimal flights as low as 42 F, and much more active in the 45-50F range. I would definitely pick SK over the Carnis based on last year, but I will let them all build up and reassess this year. My Caucasian hive is also doing very good and this year I am staring 4 Moonbeam hives.


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## My-smokepole (Apr 14, 2008)

I give which ones are the SKC one seeing I don't see them listed that way
Thanks 
David


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

David, they are referring to Russell Apiaries SunKist Cordovan queens.

http://russellapiaries.webs.com/apps/webstore/products/show/1732794

DarJones


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

You'll probably think this is an exaggeration, but cross my heart - I just went through my very strong sunkist hive and it has 16 medium frames of brood - 2/3 of it's capped. I checker boarded it about a week ago and there's brood in that. No queen cells yet. I have fed - mt camp sugar on all of my hives, and pollen candy starting about Jan 20 - but the amt invested in feed is very little compared to the number of bees. This hive is much stronger than my others. My next best hive has a Russell VSH queen - about 8 medium frames of brood - those are great bees too.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Sounds like they need more room for brood! Two mediums is not all that much more than a single deep. The Doc says they won't swarm til 120,000 bees so why you crowding them? Do you want cells?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Vance G said:


> Sounds like they need more room for brood! Two mediums is not all that much more than a single deep. The Doc says they won't swarm til 120,000 bees so why you crowding them? Do you want cells?


You misunderstand. They have 16 frames of brood, but they are in 5 8 frame medium boxes at this point - about like 2 1/2 regular deeps.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

David,
You are 100 miles South of me, which is on average is probably 3* warmer than me. So if yours are an indicator of what is to come I am waiting impatiently to see what mine does. I have not give them anything (feed or supplement) because they have been gathering pollen and some nectar for around 3 weeks as the weather has allowed. 

I will report that mine seem to like to build propolis in a medium range and makes it semi hard to remove the frames, but it was across the board this year with all my genetics. Maybe affected by the weather, which has been very warm and very wet. Does anyone have an idea why they would use more propolis at anytime?


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

I am so waiting with excitement and trepidation for the arrival of my sunkist queen on Tuesday. I excitement for the great things I hear with them, and trepidation in that I might mess up and not properly get her introduced.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Well, today is Tuesday, and I predict that you will have no problem getting the queen accepted. Unless you are introducing her to Russian genetics.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

The bees I am introducing her to, I believe are long lost decendants of a NWC queen (probably 4 or 5 generations removed). Only downside today is it is windy as heck, supposed to be like 75 degrees today.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

The bees should take her fine, the Sunkist are supposed to have strong queen pheromones and are recommended for requeening bees that don't like a change in genetics. Keep us posted.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Well she finally got here at 5:45pm, stinking UPS. I did take the time to go through the hive again one more time, and it was a good thing I did, I found 1 more queen cell. Sneaky little girls. I took one of my foundationless frames and cut out a space for the queen cage to fit that exposed both the screen and the sugar cap to the bees in the hive. I'll check again either this weekend or first of next week to get the cage out and put the frame back in that I left out. If she proves to be as prolific as I am hoping, I will have to make few splits later this year using her eggs.

Rod


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Hope you checked to see if they were trying to feed her or if they were trying to harm her. Makes a lot of differience. Sometimes you don't pull the cork on the candy for a day or three. If they were feeding her she will be accepted. Good luck!!


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

They had been queenless for like 2 weeks so I am pretty sure I could have almost direct released her and been ok, but I didn't want to risk it with my first sunkist. It will still take them a little while to eat through the candy, I'm sure they are just dying for a queen by now.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Let us know how she turns out?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I know everyone's got their own opinions on this, but I much prefer to sandwich a new queen between two frames of open brood. Of course being queenless for two weeks didn't give you this option unless you pulled some from another hive. We've heard great feedback on these queens, so hopefully your experience will be the same.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

She was on a frame of emerging brood(she was in a wood queen cage that I cut a spot out on the comb for) and next to another of emerging brood. I had stolen frames from a couple of my stronger hives to keep this one rolling till I could either get a new queen or they could make one and there were drones around to mate with. Waiting for the next nice weather day now to see if she has been released and is laying.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

!! Just ordered 7 SKC queens. I only need 6 but I like them so well I ordered an extra. Just teasing I have 6 queenless nucs coming so I will put my queens in those, and hopeful on doing a split about the same time. Come on spring (for good)!!!


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Well I went back into the hive today and they hadn't released her yet. They weren't even working on the candy. I gambled and pulled the screen up. A few of them went into the cage, and then eventually her highness walked out, she was on the frame ear and then finally waddled her fat butt out onto the comb, the bees soon surrounded her with the royal court and were feeding her. Long live the queen. If Russell ends up on here I have a question. Her paint marking is Yellow with a small dot of orange in the middle. What does this signify? I know one color is supposed to be the queens year, and I haven't ever kept up with the year colors. I put a feeder on top and said "Get to work ladies"
Rod


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Rod,
Try emailing them. Sometimes they find the time to answer. [email protected]


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## guyross (Feb 18, 2011)

I did a sugar roll on the hive pictured and had zero mites. I had a serious yellow jacket problem last fall with my Italian hives. The Sunkist handle them. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10708136/DSC_0346%20%282%29.jpg


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## TwinkieBee (Feb 21, 2011)

Joe Clemmens sent us a few of the daughters that he had raised from his Sunkist for us to test and add to the AZ acclimation program. Those queens had yellow marks with a red dot on top and Robert Hughes thought it looked like a sun so he had his team mark a few hundred sunkists breeders with the same symbol for the novelty of it. That's where the interesting marking came from. Russell just laughed and asked them if they could do a blue background with a white half moon for the moonbeams. Lol.

Hey Guy, did your Russians have any mites?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Yesterday I finally got the chance to do a full inspection of my booming SKC hive. Swarms have already started in my area, and this hive has really expanded fast this spring so I was prepared to split out the queen, make nucs with cells, shake out some bulk bees - whatever it takes. I don't want to lose this hive.

But none of that was needed - there are no signs of swarm prep that I can see. Big expansive brood area, nectar going overhead instead in the nest. Lots of bees, but everything looks good so far. I have done my part by CBing and giving them room, but you never know... BTW, the bees were calm, and the big fat queen kept right on laying even as I was trying to get her off of a comb I wanted to move.

I'm a happy camper - Low swarming tendency is a big deal for me.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

David,
Thanks for the update. I hope to get into mine again this week. I will take some frames with eggs and add to the queenless hives of which one is not Sunkist, thereby making a locally mated sunkist hive. How are yours working out, or do you have any yet?


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

It was actually a customer of mine, George Brenner, who started this trend. Last year, while the color was still white, he asked me to put a red dot on the white, so I did. I guess he wanted to make it easier to tell which queens came from his different sources, this way he could tell which queens were sourced from me. So I had many of my queens marked for George and some of them got sent to Russell Apiaries. So maybe this will grow into a fad.

Queens don't have much designed for them, in the way of royal attire, a tiny drop of "body paint", so why not embellish the paint job. Heck even those tiny numbered disks could be a little more ornate and elaborate.

I hadn't realized, until now, that the tiny little red/orange dot would be like a little "sun", hence putting a kind of SunKist logo right on the queen's thorax.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

valleyman said:


> locally mated sunkist hive. How are yours working out, or do you have any yet?


I do have some, but they overwintered as small hives, and though some of them are doing very well - even booming - they are still small hives.


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## TwinkieBee (Feb 21, 2011)

Hey Joseph, I told Robert Hughes what you said and he texted me back with simply "Right on Joe!". 

I told him about the tiny jewels and designs that they sell to put on long finger nails (aint happening on my nails!), and he said "hmmm gonna be some stylin mommas this year!"

I cant wait to see the look on Russell's face when he pulls out a frame and says WHAT IN THE WORLD IS ON THAT QUEEN!!?? :lpf:


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Found a dead hive yesterday. They starved!! It was the only one I didn't check last week. Did a lift test about a month ago and thought they had plenty of stores. I would estimate that they had 3# of bees, so it was not to large of a cluster. It was neglect on my part, but everything appeared good with the hive. I guess we can't save them all, but I sure want to!!


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

valleyman said:


> Found a dead hive yesterday. They starved!!


 That's a little bit surprising - There's lots of nectar and pollen coming in here. I've been taking feed off. Might have to put it back though if the weather changed.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

That's what I thought. Of my remaining 8 hives 2 are queenless, and I took a frame of brood and eggs and added one to each. Of the other 6 only 1 of the SKCs have taken off, so I added feed to all of them. I think it is just now warm enough for an extended period to put syrup on. I had sugar on top of three so I took it off and added syrup. I am now feeding all on top with migratory type covers with a jar hole. That way I can easily keep up with how much they are taking. The moonbeam hive is booming and getting ready to explode.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

valleyman said:


> Found a dead hive yesterday. They starved!!


Sorry to hear of your loss.

Actually I've found that March is a dangerous time of the year. Really productive queens can lay up a lot of brood and a cold snap forces the colony to really turn on the heat to keep the brood alive. This, of course burns a lot of stores - surprisingly fast! Further, if you just lift the back of the hive you can be fooled, because brood is also heavy and what you may think is a lot of stores is really a lot of brood.


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## Jim Given (Mar 15, 2012)

David LaFerney said:


> Yesterday I finally got the chance to do a full inspection of my booming SKC hive. Swarms have already started in my area, and this hive has really expanded fast this spring so I was prepared to split out the queen, make nucs with cells, shake out some bulk bees - whatever it takes. I don't want to lose this hive.
> 
> But none of that was needed - there are no signs of swarm prep that I can see. Big expansive brood area, nectar going overhead instead in the nest. Lots of bees, but everything looks good so far. I have done my part by CBing and giving them room, but you never know... BTW, the bees were calm, and the big fat queen kept right on laying even as I was trying to get her off of a comb I wanted to move.
> 
> I'm a happy camper - Low swarming tendency is a big deal for me.


David...any update??

Jim


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Sure, our flow is running several weeks early and this hive has packed in a lot of nectar and pollen. On April 8 I actually did split out the queen - not because it looked like it was going to swarm, but just because I didn't want to take any chances. A few days later I went back in and made nucs with 3 frames that had queen cells on them - 2 of which just started laying, and the third one seems to have failed to make a queen. 

This whole process is kind of an experiment in simple, sustainable increase and swarm control. I've also raised some queens by grafting cultured cells.

Over the weekend I put a frame of eggs from the original queen - which has just about filled an 8 frame medium - into the main hive to check the queen-state of that hive. If they build cells on that frame I will have to requeen it with one of the daughters - one of which is cordovan colored BTW. In the mean time they have back filled 4 8-frame medium supers with honey.

BTW, I also have a hive that has a Russell VSH queen which is every bit as strong, gentle and productive as the Sunkist bees. The sunkist daughter queens that I raised last year are also very good.

I wish all of my hives had these queens in them - I'm looking forward to getting some more that I've ordered. And, By The Way because I've gotten some inquiries - I'm not planning to sell any this year, I'm hoarding them all for myself.


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