# 2011 Russian Swarms



## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Well, this spring I had given 12 hives of pure Russians to a gentleman that lives near a yard of our Russian/Italian hybrids... as always, I maintain swarm traps around all of my yards so I can keep records of swarm activities and locate other bees that may have come to the areas... as of today, I have captured 37 swarms from the 12 Russian hives that I had given the neighbour...0 swarms have been thrown from the hybridised hives in my yard (70 total)... that puts those hives at an average of three swarms per hive... so I went over to teach him more about swarm prevention and it turns out that he had lost 4 of those hives already... they had never recovered from the first swarm that they threw, which was back in April... he showed me that he had been checkerboarding 6 and had been removing honey from the brood chambers of the others to try to keep opening up the brood chamber.... even with his efforts, these 9 hives have thrown a total of 33 swarms and 4 were building cells today... they are backfilling the chambers with so much honey and pollen that there was only 4 frames of bees and brood left in each double, and that is even with all of his efforts to keep them from doing so... 

I have also noted excessive pollen hoarding in the brood chambers of study colonies of hybrid created vsh colonies... but not in the colonies that have naturally started developing the trait...

Anyone else seeing this?


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

When we had Russians we noted the same problems, they swarmed a LOT, and packed out the brood chambers despite all of our efforts. We also noticed that the queen produced from these swarms became more and more agressive with each new generation....these are just a few of the reasons we dumped the Russians and went back to Italians.....more user friendly.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

That's been our experience with them as well... each season seems to get a little worse, so I'm curious if others are seeing the number of swarms each season grow, or level out... 

Also, very curious about the excessive pollen hoarding... I'm talking about plugging the chamber so full of pollen that there is no where for the queen to lay... this is in study hives that are headed by vsh stocks which were created by crossing primorsky with US lines... but NOT in the US lines that are slowly but sure developing the vsh trait...

This makes me wonder if it is an issue from the over development of the vsh stock (and if so MANY people are going to be seeing these issues as time progresses), or is it more due to the primorsky in the lineages of those vsh lines... being in such a state of flux that they are making strange adjustments trying to adapt to the new environment, new diets, etc?


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## Raven Lane (May 12, 2011)

This is my first year and I have two hives with Russians. My stronger hive swarmed two days ago and when I opened the weaker hive I found 5 swarm cells on one frame. I recovered one swarm with the original marked queen, but I am skeptical at most about their survival. I see full frames of brood with surrounding pollen and honey. I am too inexperienced to give you any more information.


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## sevenmmm (Mar 5, 2011)

The 8 frame colony I received from New York also hoarded pollen, to such an extent there was no room for honey - especially in the center of the frames. I kept adding empty frames to no avail, this hive just wanted pollen. There are very little stores of honey and this hive also experienced a swarm sometime mid-August. The last inspection a few days ago showed new larvae and am looking forward to seeing this queen. I did take some of the frames of pollen and put them in the freezer for early spring installation

The hives I received from Iowa are doing very good. Both were installed June 24th. The slower of the 2 has built solid stores nearly filling entire 10 frame deep with honey. I took 3 of the fullest frames and replaced them with frames of empty comb from a previous harvest. They are now working on a medium. However, I am wondering if the queen is Russian as she is lightly colored producing Italian-looking workers.

The other hive is a champion and this dark queen is still producing brood in the upper brood box. On each frame she has laid, the upper comb on the frames are stocked with honey. Interesting to note a few of the outer frames in the bottom brood box used to be completely filled with pollen. Last inspection they were empty. This hive has nearly filled a medium with honey, and are now working on another deep I installed above the medium.

Although not at the mid-day levels, you can watch these bees leaving very early in the morning and returning very late at night.

Both these hives experienced a die-off. But on advice from a member of this forum, I decided it must be robber bees from a neighboring hive.

I have video from this week's inspection, I will have to take the time to get it up on Youtube.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

Dr. Russell,
As noted in my thread "I promised a report on my pure Russians", you can not keep queens in them. My one year experience with them may not count for too much in some peoples opinions, but my experience was exactly what others and you have said. In the fall they filled the entire brood nest full of honey, and some pollen. When spring arrived I thought that they were going to be OK, because their numbers were better than I expected. I removed, and extracted much of the surplus honey so they would have room to expand. I noticed over the next 3-4 weeks that their numbers didn't grow. They were much more agressive than they were the in the fall. Around the last of April-early May I noticed they were becoming more aggressive. I started checking for queens to see what was going on with them. I found that only 2 hives had queens in them. I went thru the process of looking for brood and cells, watching for laying queens. I started trying to requeen them, and Dr. Russell as you well know they killed the moonbeam queen that you so generously sent me. I put the Russian Hybrid Queens that Kelly Co, carries from Hardemans. All were marked. This is after they were hopelessly queenless. They only accepted like 4 of the first 7 of the hybrids. To shorten my story, after getting them all queenright they were still aggressive, even the hybrids were still very runny on the comb. They will all clump to one edge of a frame as you try to inspect them. Festooning was the worst I had ever experienced. It was almost impossible to find a queen. So I decided to requeen with the SKC queens because of their strong pheromones. After using a fume board and queen excluder on most of them I was able to locate all the queens. Only 1 was a hybrid, and her mark had been mostly removed. The rest were what I called tiger queens because of their markings. 2 that I found were just returned virgins. So what I took away from this is that they will supercede, or swarm, (and I caught a couple of mini swarms during this time) at the drop of a hat as the old saying goes. How can they ever survive when they will not keep a queen long enough for their numbers to increase. As fishstix said in a post the best day of my beekeeping life was when I pinched the last Russian!!


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## sevenmmm (Mar 5, 2011)

To be fair, I must also compare these Russians to the other strains I have. 3 came from a Wisconsin source and since he didn't know the strain they are described as "Leers". One hive went downhill soon after receiving nucs and is no longer in existence. One swarmed after 45 days and has been re-queened with a NY Blues northern hygenic, which by the way, is doing fantastic. The 3rd hive is the best of the 8 I purchased having harvested a dozen mediums and 6 deep frames of honey. It may well be I get even more than this in the end.

Of the 2 Carniolans I purchased from a commercial outfit in Wisconsin, one , again, quickly went downhill and is no longer in existence. The other is surviving, but has yet to completely fill a frame with honey. 

Compared to the Russians, most of these are comparable or worse, no longer functioning.

Here is the video sequence of my last round of inspecting the best Russian hive.

Super: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyJJJ1tFs2c

Upper Brood box: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceBH-iJpuJc

Lower Brood box: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVcQhxT2_O4


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## BigBlackBirds (Aug 26, 2011)

Well Ill start with a disclaimer. I havent really done much beekeeping in the last few years and what few hives we have now probably have very little russian genetics left. However, I did keep a number of them probably three to four hundred for two to three years but that would have been roughly eight years ago or so. I used russian breeder queens that were purchased not all that long after the russians were imported and released. Virgins were open mated but in well established mating yards with a saturation of our drone stock at that time which was a mix of predecessors to smr (which I think is now being referred to as vsh) buckfast, carniolan and canadian stock from tibor szabo. 

Results were dismal.  I really disliked them for a few reasons. They always had supercedure cells which is fine but they both swarmed and simply replaced queens all of the time for no apparent reason. They loved to run two or three frames of brood up the middle of the brood boxes as far as they could go. If you gave them five deeps with no exculder they would run brood to the top in a narrow chimney. They had good winter survival and low mite loads both trachel and varroa but szabo stock was such head and shoulders above them i could never warm up to the russians. At that time, the wisdom from harper and tubbs was that they were best when kept pure. i figured that was not an option that i was interested in so i opted to not continue using russian stock.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

As BigBlackBirds stated, They keep the hive full of queen cells, whether it be SS or swarm. I believe on average they produce a queen a month at least. When I started requeening I tore down cells at 4 days and 10 days. All hives had several mostly already capped both times. One hive had one frame that had 35 cells on both sides of the frame, mostly capped. It has been stated on other threads that one of the reasons they are varrora resistant is the brood cycle gets broken so often. My observations substantiate that. My experience with their demeanor before they started swarming, and still pure was that they were not overly aggressive at all. It seemed like that every time they requeened themselves they got meaner. What I didn't put in my earlier post was that the probable reason that so many of mine were queenless was the spring weather was very rainy all spring and early summer, and the queens just weren't making it back from their mating flights. Remember being queenless also added to their aggressiveness. Keeping them pure would not be an option for many people because you would have to requeen about every month thru warm weather.

sevenmmm,
I have stated many times that the Russian hybrids are essentially a better bee than the pure are, and in my humble opinion it is mainly because most of the aggressiveness has been bred out. The hybrids that I had this year were so bad because the bees in the hive were still relatively pure Russian. So I think with proper management, such as checkerboarding to reduce or stop so much swarming that they are an acceptable genetic to some. I had a couple of hives of the hybrids before I went to the pure and they were a decent bee. However, I still remember them being runny on the frames, gather in big balls on the bottom of the frames, and festooned bad. Not trying to be smart but from your post it seems that all you have are hybrids.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

What I am mostly interested in is the brood nests and what different people are finding there... 

Rick, in the lower chamber inspection, the brood looked very spotty... can you remember if there was pollen or nectar stored in those cells or if they were left empty or had eggs in them? (just a tip, that cell being on the lower section of one of the better capped brood frames usually is a good sign that it was a swarm cell, but in either case, I would have left it because of the spotty pattern... a swarm box set up near the yard will usually help to catch any swarms that you may have and they can be used to create nucs for overwintering, start new hives (if you want to requeen or take a chance on the spotty queen over the winter), or you can just take the queen away and roll combine the bees back to the parent hive via drift...

I have not had a chance to watch the upper chamber inspection yet, but if it is fairly close to the lower chamber, they most likely are indeed hybrids that are pretty far removed from primorsky. The lower chamber looked like a dark italian nest with little food and brood all the way across... the primorsky keep a thin nest, either in a tall fashion, or a ball fashion depending on the situation... these nest are usually surrounded by 3 or four frames of honey, then pollen, and drone cells on the lower areas of each brood comb... 

What we are seeing in VSH stock that was created by the crossing of primorsky with US strains is completely plugged brood chambers... if the spotty brood in the lower chamber video has pollen in the unused cells, that would be close, but still only about 1/3 as much as I am noting... 

The more pure primorsky are not doing this anywhere near as badly... Nor are our Italian/Russian and Italian/Carniolan hybrids... I am not sure yet as to whether this may be simply because those hybrids are earlier stages of the cross or if it has to do more with inbred lineages in the study colonies... 

I would just like to find those that are seeing these issues, note the variables in each situation, and get on a corrective solution to stop this issue from costing even more hive losses in the US... 

The excessive swarming is an easy way to identify how close to the original cross the lineages are... the pollen hoarding seams to be a secondary issue that is popping up further down the line.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Yes Robert, as per your pm, I would like to add to this conversation. Pollen hoarding is something I have seen since the mid-2000s...say 2004? We talked earlier about this and you mentioned that beekeepers around the world were seeing and discussing this. To help in the discussion, I am posting a couple photos I took of such a colony.



















First, I don't have Russians and only had 10 back in 1999 and because they failed so miserably that I gave up on them.

Second, I do have a lot of VSH stock in my apiaries. Thing is, I don't see it in all my bees, and not in all the VSH hybrids. It started way before I had enough VSH in my stocks to bee the initial cause.

At first, it seemed to be related to PMS. It was colonies crashing from varroa that first demonstrated the pollen hoarding response. I was thinking it strange that right when a colony would benefit from open brood comb for the queen to lay in , the bees plug the active broodnest with pollen, severely restricting the queen's ability to lay. What biological sense does that make??

I'm really at a loss to explain what's going on. Some possibilities...

Don't you think there must be a switch controlling pollen gathereing? If the colony needs pollen, they recruit more bees for pollen gathering. If they don't need additional pollen...shouldn't the switch turn off? In the "olden days" a failing queen would leave whole combs empty with nectar od maybe that5 band of pollen above where the last brood had been. Now they plug the entire active brood rearing core.

I wonder if a virus could do such a thing? Damage that switch.

Also...Clothianadin was first used in the Champlain valley on corn in about 2004. Hmmm....possible to have sub-leathat exposure to a neonic cause the problem?? I'm not a fear monger...but I suppose it could be. Tony J from Maine has sent some pollen hoarded combs to Maryann Frazier to have some tests done. I haven't heard the results yet.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

I never thought about the pollen issue, but in my minds eye I can remember thinking what is all this pollen doing in the frames when they are queenless and hardly any brood to none. I realize that I have nothing near the knowledge or experience as others on here, so therefore don't know what to look for. Also I was fighting large problems with my 9 hives, and was mainly focused on changing genetics. Changing genetics is one problem that hasn't been mentioned yet. In my humble opinion that is the worst problem that I had with the Russians. They flat out refuse to accept other genetics. Even after making them hoplessly queenless they will accept the new genetic, and immediatley supercede her in trying to keep their genetics in the hive. My 9 hives that I finally got succesfully requeened before 8/22 when I had major surgery have not been looked into yet because I've not been able, and it is raining or cloudy every day for the last week. I am very antsy to get into them to see how many still have the SKC queens that I requeened with. I'm hoping all will be there but realistically know that they won't. Remember these are now the hybrids from Hardemans. I chose the SKC from Russells because of their reported strong pheromones, hoping it would aid in their acceptance. I will know in a day or two what is going on.
Also I had saved a orange bodied returned virgin in a nuc which grew strong enough that I put it in a 10 frame deep. I kept this just for insurance in case I needed to replace a hive. I'm almost certain it has swarmed because there is not nearly as much activity with the hive as there was a week ago. Typical Russian, huh?
I'm certainly glad were having a civil discussion about these issues!


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## sevenmmm (Mar 5, 2011)

valleyman said:


> sevenmmm,
> Not trying to be smart but from your post it seems that all you have are hybrids.


I don't know what strain these bees really are (I have already made this clear in a past post) and I highly doubt the people I purchased them from know either. My opinion, about the suppliers, of course.

When I used to race pigeons I studied genetics a little and concluded there are so many variables one could never guarantee a successful racing bird (through breeding). It is all about training, the environment in which the bird lived, and luck.

So I think grafting bees _could be_ more risky than open mating because one restricts the variables necessary to "hit a good colony". Even cloning doesn't guarantee performance. Narrowing the odds is all one can ever do. Perhaps. So what we define as Russians may have very little to do with what bees came from Russia.

Well anyway, it is very clear to me there is a marketing position hyping colors and sizes, all well and good. It generates interest. But then there are the real bees.

Sure, it could be I come to the table with some ideas that need to be worked over...


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## sevenmmm (Mar 5, 2011)

rrussell6870 said:


> What I am mostly interested in is the brood nests and what different people are finding there...
> 
> Rick, in the lower chamber inspection, the brood looked very spotty... can you remember if there was pollen or nectar stored in those cells or if they were left empty or had eggs in them? (just a tip, that cell being on the lower section of one of the better capped brood frames usually is a good sign that it was a swarm cell, but in either case, I would have left it because of the spotty pattern... a swarm box set up near the yard will us.


Thanks for the tip. I think I will do another inspection today with these ideas more in focus.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Sorry, but is the main issue the excessive swarming or the pollen hoarding? Or is it a combination?

I gave up on Russians several years ago. Nothing against them, but they have several qualities that I just don't find helpful (excessive swarming, excessive queen cups, nervous queens, somewhat more aggressive, slower buildup in spring . . . ). At least, that's with the ones I've dealt with.


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## valleyman (Nov 24, 2009)

As has been stated by others they are not having all the problems with their Russians that those of us that know for a good level of certainty that ours were in the beginning, pure. So there are going to always be a few that do like what theirs are doing. Then there are those that have never experienced anything but the Russians so they don't know there is better. 
One must always remember that diversity in the genetics is what has allowed the bees to survive many maladys they have faced thru time, meant to include mankind and our intevention on their lives. My point being I am agreeing with you that we can't keep them pure, and shouldn't. However, we need to at least be able to keep the mutts that we wind up with with some level of consistency. I don't see that being possible with the pure Russians for too many generations from being pure. 
Now, when I say pure Russians I fully understand that the USDA Russians are not the Primorsky Russians that they were supposed to be improving to the point they were keeper friendly. They failed miserably in my opinion, and have brought hardship on the members of the RBA, and many other beekeepers from the small scale like myself, to the commercial guys that fell for their hype.
I certainly believe that you, with an open mind can add to the beekeeping experience of others. Much more than some other birds on here can and will. I haven't taken time to watch all your videos, but I will. I understand my limited knowledge of beekeeping and am willing to listen to, and evaluate anyones experience presented in civil forum. Good Luck!!!


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Mike, thanks for the pictures... that is exactly what they look like... have you noted it more in particular yards than others or does it seem to be appearing sporadically throughout all of the stocks?

Specialkay, my original post was somewhat confusing... I really brought up two separate topics at once... I apologize for that...

My first question was about pure and hybridised Russians... just looking to see how many swarms people are seeing them throw per season, and if that number seems to be increasing over time, decreasing, or leveling out...

The second question was more so about the pollen hoarding issue and which variables it seems to be noted under the most... I would like to locate the source of that issue as quickly as possible so we can start to formulate a counter to the issue before it starts to cause collapses...


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Is your goal to isolate the pollen hoarding gene (assuming that is what we are talking about) to incorporate it into later strains, or to remove the tendency entirely? I guess it would largely depend upon whether it's a genetic trait, like super hygienic behavior, or more like a symptom of a disease, such as inability to sense when a colony has sufficient pollen stores . . .


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Robert, I don't see any pattern. I don't breed by lines, so it's difficult to track what's happening. It doesn't seem to be by yard or breeder queen. We've started trying to keep track of it this year, but seeing any pattern will take a few years.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

A thought...Roy Weaver once told me that Brother Adam told him that Buckfast bees place their pollen within the brood pattern and not in a band above and around it. I had plenty of R Weaver Buckfast stock, but never saw what he was talking about.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

I believe that it will be either an acclimation flux, or a response to a stress, possibly dietary, excessive fluctuations in brood rearing, or the effects of sub-lethal poisoning causing them to grasp for a fresh start by hoarding the ideal food source...

Several studies are in progress across the globe, but this is my first time to note it... one theory that is being tested is that they may be adapting to having more protien than they naturally would have VIA the long term effects of offering pollen substitutes... thus causing them to think that there is a deficiency in the hive when that source is not available... another is based more on the rapid increase of pollen producing plants over the past decade... another is based on the state of flux that imported bees may be under... and yet another is based on residual pesticides in combs may be causing the bees to cull them by means of "baiting" them so that moths will destroy the old nests... this last one would also need to include higher absconding or swarm rates, as would the state of flux theory...


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

Mike, I can validate what Roy said about Adam... he shared that same concern with me... he viewed it as a good thing as it could help with winter nutrition, but by spring the pollen was used up as the build up began and the band was created with fresh pollen...

I have not noted any concerning levels of it in my buckfast stocks though, and they are direct lineages that are isolated... 

So far, we have only noted it in the vsh lines... that of course means that the situation is isolated to one specific area in my operation, so I can not at this time tell if it is genetic, stress, or forage related...


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

rrussell6870 said:


> ... and yet another is based on residual pesticides in combs may be causing the bees to cull them by means of "baiting" them so that moths will destroy the old nests...


Wouldn't this easily be confirmed (or denied) by visually inspecting the age of the combs, and double checked by testing it?

The pictures by Palmer appeared to show new comb. Just a thought.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Although that isn't to say that new comb can't be contaminated . . .


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Yes, the combs were in their second year and not exposed to miticides. Can't speak for pesticides and fungicides. I have bees is a corn desert, and all that corn is treated with clothianadin.


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## rrussell6870 (May 14, 2009)

That's what I was referring to mainly... it doesn't have to necessarily be old comb to be contaminated beyond the bees threshold of contentment... although of the theories running, that seems to be one of the least likely... the cases that I have heard of concerning clothianadin more so involved a good start at building up, then a downward spiral to collapse, leaving behind brood and stores... although, this type of reaction varied between different lines as if lower dosage over long periods had allowed some sort of resistance to build in some stocks...


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

I have some russian hybrid colonies and have not had any swarms this year. I have noted a frame or two, usually outside the brood nest, packed with pollen. Mine have tended to fill the brood combs with nectar.

I had a couple of colonies get high mite loads this summer and I am re-queening them with Carniolans. I plan on re-queening my remaining colonies next year.

Tom


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