# Protien Patty Feeding



## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Mark,

To answer your question… I don’t know.

From feeding trials, I see the greatest benefit from feeding patties and syrup during growth periods and or shortages. I like to work with the bees and help move them along when they are in their own natural growth cycle. Put enough sugar in patties and bees will take them any time. But will really use them during spring build up, especially on the days when they cannot get out and forage in the early spring. 

I tend to use protein patties on the cell builders, mostly as insurance and on new splits to facilitate growth. Adult bees still need protein, but the majority is used for brood rearing and growth.

Larger operations may be in a slightly different position and use patties more often to provide greater insurance and promote growth at less than optimal times of the season. Once a colony depletes its stored pollen reserves, the next step is body protein reserves. Bringing a colony back from the edge of starvation is challenging and takes a great deal of time and resources to get that colony back on track and even more time to become productive again. Keeping bees well fed and healthy is no different than keeping a dairy cow well fed and healthy for milk production…

Joe


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks Joe. I guess I understand what you mean, but it used to be that syrup or sugar was all that was needed. Now I'm not all that sure of when to feed patties to achieve my goals. Many I know feed now or actually in about a month. But they are building up for almond pollination. My bees need to be strong for blueberries a month later than almonds, roughly, and for splitting in March and April. That's what I am working towards now.


----------



## RAK (May 2, 2010)

the only reason I feed em is to get them built for the almonds. HUGE difference in amount of bees going into winter with and w/o pollen sub. More bees going into winter=more bees in feb ready for almonds= money. If you have lots of fall pollen then there is no point in feeding but I don't see much pollen in my area.

Maybe its just my sub recipe that makes the diff :shhhh:


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

A personal recipe? Or do you use manufactured pattys?


----------



## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Mark:

You might want to look up logistic equations that are often used in conservation work.
They'll help you to estimate many of the variables that you're trying to get a handle on.

Or, you can put the pollen sub/patties on now, and then use the results as a baseline for any future efforts.

At around a buck a pound, I'm not sure why this might affect your margins in a big way, unless you're looking at the expensive stuff.

WLC.

PS-aren't patties a problem in SHB territory?


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

Mark, think about your goals in early spring, ask yourself, do you need lots of bees in early spring? do you have a plan to deal with them BEFORE they swarm? Most hives bring in about 100-125 pounds of pollen a year, so keep that in mind when your feeding. Here in N Calif we have been making & feeding sub for decades. Here, we have had the package bee market & almonds, so sub feeding & packages go hand in hand. I have had some of the best pollen for brooding tested back in the 80's-90's, not much has changed since then. I can post some if you would like. Sub feeding does pay off, we shake bees BEFORE the almonds @ $30 lb. Mark, think it ALL through, beekeeping is local, becareful not to paint the picture with a WIDE brush.


----------



## RAK (May 2, 2010)

sqkcrk said:


> A personal recipe? Or do you use manufactured pattys?


Nah I make my own sub as for now. Its not worth the time making your own if you have more than 300 hives so that is why we have Keith. Never tried it but Keith's sub is next on my list as far as price and ease of use. 





Keith Jarrett said:


> Mark, think about your goals in early spring, ask yourself, do you need lots of bees in early spring? do you have a plan to deal with them BEFORE they swarm? Most hives bring in about 100-125 pounds of pollen a year, so keep that in mind when your feeding. Here in N Calif we have been making & feeding sub for decades. Here, we have had the package bee market & almonds, so sub feeding & packages go hand in hand. I have had some of the best pollen for brooding tested back in the 80's-90's, not much has changed since then. I can post some if you would like. Sub feeding does pay off, we shake bees BEFORE the almonds @ $30 lb. Mark, think it ALL through, beekeeping is local, becareful not to paint the picture with a WIDE brush.


Hey Keith I bet you do Give out free samples  huh?


----------



## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Mark,

I think it is challenging to know when to feed honey bees. Going back to larger animals, it is pretty easy to get a quick and direct correlation between feed and production. If large animals are not getting enough feed then production drops quickly and visibly. With honey bees, I think the same drop in production is there, but often times harder to see as we are not in every hive every day looking at the fine details. Often times we do not see the food shortage until it is almost too late. 

I assume Keith has a fairly intensive feeding routine to get the results that he does. Once you start feeding, it has to be deliberate and continuous. A little feed here and there is wasted time and energy. But, if you have a goal in mind as Keith said, lots of bees, then feed and continue feeding until there is plenty of natural pollen and nectar. In many areas, honey bees are like large production animals that respond well to good nutrition and plenty of it.

Joe


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WLC said:


> Mark:
> 
> PS-aren't patties a problem in SHB territory?


No, not on strong colonies.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Keith and Joe,
You touch on some of the things I have noticed and have to decide on. If I feed pollen pattys starting when I get them south I will need to go bakc and feed them again every two weeks or maybe less and I live 1,000 miles away from where the bees winter.

So, that figures into the economics of beekeeping. If I feed as soon as the hives get to SC I will have to keep on feeding, either staying down south longer or more trips.

What would be the value of applying a one lb patty monthly thru the winter? would the expense, monetery and time, be worthwhile? In my F-450 I figure the round trip costs me $1,000.00. In my Transit connect, a lot less. I do want to split as early as possible, come Spring.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Unless you feel that you will have trouble coming up with the bees that you need to get your projected numbers back then I think that it's tough to justify pollen supplements. Frankly my experience with trying to stimulate queens that have shut down at that time of year hasn't been good. Unless you start your sub program in the fall before the queens have stopped laying it is tough to get them restarted early enough to help much. Guys like Keith want lots and lots of bees really early and to accomplish this they are starting their supplement program early and they are feeding a lot, its the only way I know of to trick the seasonal instincts of the hive to shut down when the bees don't instinctively want to. Its pretty tough to make comparisons with how guys, with a "honey crop first mentality" like us operate.


----------



## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

As a only honey producer. I've never us them. But then again I don't over winter so my brood boxes still have more then enough pollen come spring to get the new packages started. Each operation is ran differently and needs different things to make them work right. My Dad said even when he over wintered in the north back in the days he never feed any pollen subs. The game has changed a lot sense then too. It's like anything you have to know how and when to use them to get the most for your $.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> No, not on strong colonies.


Do people put patties on strong hives?


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Yes, they do. I don't think it would be too far wrong to say that putting pattys on the strongest colonies is most beneficial. You'll get the biggest return doing so.


----------



## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i put some on a few overwintered nucs this spring when i noticed the first little patches of brood. just a pound or two, but it wasn't too long before plenty of natural forage was coming in anyway.


----------



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> Yes, they do.


But even you said "What would be the value of applying a one lb patty monthly thru the winter?" when bees colonies are not strong. I would think if one puts them on when colonies are needing a boost to build up on, SHB could/would be a problem, unlike having patties on a large strong hive.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

A. I have never experienced the devistating effects of SHB that seems to happen to folks who keep bees in the South exclusively.
B. I have seen SHB on hives w/ pollen patties on them, but not to the detriment of the hive. Though I'm sure it occurs.

My question was in hopes that someone who has really looked/observed the benefits could tell me what to expect. Them there is me to deal with. How much work am I willing to put into this? That's the factor no one else can access better than myself.


----------



## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> My question was in hopes that someone who has really looked/observed the benefits could tell me what to expect.


Mark, sept-oct is the sweet spot for sub feeding, if your just now thinking about it... well, "hope" is in order.  good luck


----------



## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Mark,

There is an old, perhaps extension image, that I really like, but cannot find at the moment. It shows the reproductive cycle of the honey bee for our region, but is applicable in any part of the country as long as you adjust for temperature and bloom times. The graph portion shows that honey bees have two reproductive peaks throughout the year, one in the spring, and one later in September. I believe the later one is what Keith called the “sweet spot” for patty feeding. The bees are already in their natural buildup cycle and feeding them helps to stimulate them even further. Large populous colonies going into winter initiate brood rearing earlier and are more efficient. 

My opinion for your situation is that your most effective feeding effort may be in the spring prior to the availability of natural pollen and nectar. As you said, feeding and stimulating your largest colonies may be most beneficial in terms of return. I have nucs that will consume a pound a week, so you may want to consider larger patties to cut down on your visits. This way, you are helping the colonies that can best utilize the extra feed and will be able to split them sooner.

Joe


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Keith Jarrett said:


> Mark, sept-oct is the sweet spot for sub feeding, if your just now thinking about it... well, "hope" is in order.  good luck


I hear ya Keith. I have a friend who often says you have to be thinking three months ahead of the bees. I haven't got the hang of that yet.

100 to 125 lbs of pollen a year? That's amazing. Makes me wonder how many bees a colony produces in a year and how much honey a colony produces and eats in a year. I bet someone can tell me. Are all those numbers about the same, since it takes a frame of honey and a frame of pollen to produce a frame of bees? Or so I have heard.


----------



## ryan (Apr 3, 2010)

HI Mark

I like to drop some pollen sub on the hives right after honey/pollen flow stops, late summer early fall. I think it extends the brood season with some good clean protein. Then again very early in the spring it's nice to have some pollen sub on hand in case the weather is bad. You can use the pollen sub to help keep on schedule or even jump start the season by a week. You're not looking to make a big increase so I'd be pretty conservative.

In some areas. Repeat, in some areas you can dump a bag of dry pollen in a barrel and the bees will rob it out effectively. If you are in one of those areas it is very quick, easy, and cheap to feed pollen sub.


----------



## greenbeekeeping (Feb 13, 2003)

we started putting on patties as soon as the supers were off. Most of the hives have had 2-3lbs at least by now. By the time we get done in California we will have had put 10-12lbs on the bees.


----------

