# What's New?



## Acebird

What is travel height?


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## hpm08161947

Gotta to have them the same height to stack them properly on the truck.... one pallet on top of the other. Else you gotta a big problem down the road.


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## Acebird

So is that one, two, three or more boxes high per hive? When they get to their southern location then what? Feed them all winter? Do you take them off the trailer?


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## hpm08161947

Since Mark is probably still working or resting up from a hard day, I'll help out here. Some guys transport singles, some Deep + medium, others Doubles (2 deeps). Not sure about Mark.

He will unload them in various yards and then feed them periodically.... feed is a lot cheaper than honey.


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## rrussell6870

Also depends on where he is taking them... we are on a great flow in MS, an empty hive has plenty of time here to fill a few supers... 

Ace, bees backfill the chamber, which can get most through winter and allow you to pull all of the supers without depleting the hive to the extent that you would have to feed... the southern winters come later, offer many days of cleansing flights and even forage, and end sooner, so operations from up north can take off their honey, carry the bees south where there is still forage and nice weather to get them through an easier winter, then benefit from the earlier buildup and first flows before heading north again...


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## Mbeck

I don't understand the way that you're removing supers leaving bees in them.
Can you explain further?
Thanks

Work safely I know that you must feel pressure to get things done in a timely fashion .


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## hpm08161947

Mbeck said:


> I don't understand the way that you're removing supers leaving bees in them.


Pretty sure that is what that nuc is for.. to pull the bees out of those supers... not sure though.. never tried that.


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## sqkcrk

Mbeck said:


> Can you explain further?


The method of honey removal would work better were there a nectar flow on and it was a little warmer. Were that the case, I would be standing the supers of honey up on ende and by the time the whole yard is done that way, almost all of the bees would be out of the supers. Then they would be stacked on a pallet and loaded on the truck.

At this time of year I end up w/ moree bees still in the boxes because they are kind of loaggy because of the cool weather. We had a heavy frost last night.

The way things are where I get my honey extracted, I don't have to bring the boxes as bee free as some places. The bees can be enticed out of the supers w/ some brood. That's what the nuc under the tarp is for.

The nuc was a weak one and I'm planning on getting more bees in it by using the bees from the honey supers. Mutually beneficial.


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## Roland

SQKCRK - You have heard of a Bee Blower, EH? You THAT cheap?

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk

Don't like them. Don't need them. This works fine for me.

I'm not Crazy, Roland. I was born this way.

Be yourself. No one else is qualified.


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## Mbeck

I've learned something, I didn't think of the frost factor


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## lakebilly

Mark; I didn't see your method for removing bees from HS's. I was firmly in the corner of blowers till I used BM's Honey Harvester on 2 fumeboards. GONE bees & they ain't mad, SUUUUWEEEEEEET! 45 hives 3 yards totally by myself in 2 partial days.


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## Acebird

rrussell6870 said:


> Also depends on where he is taking them... we are on a great flow in MS, an empty hive has plenty of time here to fill a few supers...


Would there be an advantage to leaving the bees on the trailer instead of unloading? Your only going to bring them back in the spring.
What are the risks of bringing back SHB, mites, and any other southern problems to the north when you do this annually?


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## beemandan

sqkcrk said:


> I'm not Crazy, Roland. I was born this way.


Just 'cause you were born that way doesn't mean you aren't crazy.


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> Would there be an advantage to leaving the bees on the trailer instead of unloading? Your only going to bring them back in the spring.
> ?


It would not do to leave 400-500 hives stacked on a trailer. No way to manage them... feed them...etc. etc.

As far as bringing stuff back... Most are gone before the SHB start to rage... but I would suspect they do bring some back. It takes some pretty tropical weather to really get the SHB raging... so suspect they are not that big a deal.


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## Acebird

You got me at a disadvantage on management of bees in the south. We don't manage bees in the north during winter. It sounds like feeding may or may not be needed from some other posts on this thread. Either way I would think open feeding would always be an option.

It was unanamusly decided that moving a pallet of hives to the honey house for a couple of hours for extraction would result in the death of the bees but putting them on a trailer for days and taking them off the trailers twice a year doesn't affect them at all.:s

How does a SHB infect a hive that never had them in the first place?


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> It was unanamusly decided that moving a pallet of hives to the honey house for a couple of hours for extraction would result in the death of the bees but putting them on a trailer for days and taking them off the trailers twice a year doesn't affect them at all.:s


If you could see the honey house I just left a few minutes ago you would understand why one can not take hives to the HH for extraction.....

Moving bees is hard on them!


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## Acebird

hpm08161947 said:


> Moving bees is hard on them!


When I thought of the idea to move the hives to the honey house I didn't realize this. I assumed because commercial operations do this all the time it was not detrimental to the bees. As a newbee I moved my first hive 50 feet and darn near lost them within the first couple of months of having a hive.

Anyhow, I am going to try what Mark did and lay the honey supers on end and wait to see if the bees leave and go back to the hive. That is similar to what I did last year only I did it frame by frame.
I am still wondering if it is better to store the wet frames for spring or put them back on the hive to clean out. I don't know if the wet frames made a difference in spring build up or not but it sure seemed to make a difference to me.


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## sqkcrk

If a swarm in May is worth a stack of hay, what is a swarm in October worth? 

After being in the last yard of the day for a little while, maybe 20 or 30 minutes, we noticed three clumps of bees hanging from a tree right next to the yard. I don't know if it was already there when we got there, or if it collected while we were working.

Got 4 yards done today. 7yds, 7 pallets of honey.


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## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> If abswarm in May is worth a stack of hay, what is a swarm in October worth?


Who Knows? Throw them in a nuc and bringem south... we'll see.

Reckon you are going to make more honey than you originally thought? Seven pallets sounds like a fair number of buckets. And nine more yards to go.


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## sqkcrk

Too early to predict the take. And, it isn't like the boxes or frames are all full. Though every frame does have some honey in them. We'll see.


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## Roland

SQKCRK - Who's blower have you tried? The ones offered for sale now aren't worth a hoot compared to the first ones made. 

If we tried your method at this time of year, we would excite a robbing frenzy. As it is, some times we have to blowout the supers we have removed after working half the yard, instead of waiting until he whole yard was worked. We also have an enclose truck, so that we can blow the bees out, and then place them in the truck and close the doors. Very few bees make it back to the shop. The Food inspectors like it better that way. 

Crazy Roland


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## willyC

Acebird said:


> Anyhow, I am going to try what Mark did and lay the honey supers on end and wait to see if the bees leave and go back to the hive. That is similar to what I did last year only I did it frame by frame.


Acebird,
Why not Use an excluder when harvesting a super, or brushing a frame or three back into the hive ? No guessing or waiting, the bees are "in" the hive.

This would not (probably) work for these Commercial or side-liners, they have work to do to make a living, brushing bees is just buzzzing fun but pays less than minimum wage, if at all.

I compare it to a commercial gold mine vs the placer folks with a gold pan, same objective, "find and harvest gold". Different scale and technique.


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## sqkcrk

Roland,
What I am doing works satisfactorily for me. 

I used a tripod based blower w/ a friend of mine 20 years ago on Summer down in the Finger Lakes of NY. He had the aluminum stand and all, w/ the chute. Lots of bees on the ground and in the air.

I had a backpack blower for a while. After I had so much trouble getting the darn thing started and regulated I gave that up.

I have one of those tripod blowers. Maybe I will take it to the Bee Mtng for the silent auction.

I don't recommend that anyone w/out some experience do what I do. Especially this time of year in NY.


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## lakebilly

Have any of you tried Honey Harvester? I was told that it was an E.O. not a chemical. I was going to ask MB or anyone if they knew of any adverse affect on micro-organisms etc.

I used 2 boards @ a time. While one super is being prepped for the truck (w/cap) the other is fuming out the second. I just go back & forth or move one board to the third hive & so on. $12 for a bottle & I only used 1/2. on approx 45 hives. I would say that 80% of the supers had zero bees after 7-8 minutes. I started using a backpack blower that worked ok. lots of bees in the air, not so w/HH.
I leave a smoker going inside the cap to deter bees from coming or staying in truck.


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## Roland

SQKCRK - like I thought, not the real McCoy. Do you still have July of 1966 ABJ? That is what a good one looks like(I have the power unit yet).

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk

Two more yds, 2 more pallets of honey. Some robbing going on. Using nets on harvested honey while in the yd. Adult bee pop.s look good. What brood I looked at looked good. Dead cols looked dead. Must have gone queenless since last inspection. Deadout rate not too bad yet. Gotta get them all on the semi anyway and need the empty equipment for next spring. Though I don't usually have trouble making empty equipment.

Working alone on these shortening days I can get two yds done and get back home to unlaod and cover the days take before dark.

So far the weather is cooperating. I need to arrange for trucking south soon. But have to get this honey off and out of here before I can start bringing pallets of bees here for the loading.


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## hpm08161947

Mark... What does your travel config look like... 1 deep + 1 Med?.. maybe 2 deeps? Gas prices have been dropping pretty fast around here... maybe Diesel will start down soon and hopefully you can get a good rate on a truck going south. How many live col do you think you will be bringing south?

Gotta take a little trip up to Dadants in VA. today. Fall honey is all spun out and mostly all sold. Loaded a barrel on Jim Griffin's pickup yesterday... guess I will go spend his money in VA.

Be safe.


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## Acebird

What is a pallet of honey?


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## sqkcrk

Herb,
Most cols will probably still be dbls. A good number are a deep plus a medium. Some are singles, but, since I'm not getting much honey anyway, I'm considering making all the singles a story and a half by giving them a medium of honey. Then I won't have to feed as many.

2yds, 2 pallets today. Man, if we had had a good year I could have taken two pallets full from each of todays yds.

A pallet of honey is 30 shallow or 30 medium supers of honey. Or 18 deeps.


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## sqkcrk

I haven't done the math yet, collected the real data that is, but there seems to be more robbing and more wax moth damage this year than I have seen in the past.

W/ the warm weather we are experiencing this year, I'm considering a later move South. I really don't want to bring all of my bees into one yard and have robbing start. I'd end up w/ fewer and fewer colonies that way. This is definitly the year for entrance reducers and tighter covers.


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## camero7

sqkcrk said:


> I haven't done the math yet, collected the real data that is, but there seems to be more robbing and more wax moth damage this year than I have seen in the past.


I've had many more wax moth problems this year.


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## wildbranch2007

camero7 said:


> I've had many more wax moth problems this year.


my hives and everyone I have helped has seen far more wax moth's and problems this year. Think about it, was a very hard winter, all those colonies living in trees that died are producing all those wax moths. also a very good year for skunks, but I have no ideas on that one.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> I haven't done the math yet, collected the real data that is, but there seems to be more robbing and more wax moth damage this year than I have seen in the past.


Is wax moth a problem for us northerners? I haven't heard to much about that up here.


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## sqkcrk

I got two more yards worked today. Running about a pallet of honey per yard. One more yard to go. Then it's time to start gathering the hives into the home yard for loading onto the Semi for going south. Can't wait to get on the road. But still alot to do.


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## Acebird

With the cost of shipping where is the economics? Or is it that you just like being a half way snow bird? It has got to cost you thousands making this trip every year. From the sound of posts from southern members there isn't anything to forage on so now you are adding the cost of feed, traveling losses both ways ... Are you doing OK with this program? Looks very risky to me.


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## sqkcrk

Works for me and all of the other nonstationary Commercial Beekeepers of NY. Which is almost all of the Commercial Beekeepers of NY.


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> With the cost of shipping where is the economics?


I will give you a couple of reasons before Mark expands on them.

1. It will not take near the amount of feed to get the bees through the winter.

2. Come early March the bees will be feeding on Pollen and brooding up. His bees will be booming when he gets back upstate.... yours will just be coming out of cluster.

He is not the only commercial guy to come here, so he is not alone in his thinking. Plus.... he likes the BBQ.


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## rrussell6870

Acebird said:


> From the sound of posts from southern members there isn't anything to forage on


There is only about a 30 day period in the deep south that does not offer bees some form of forage... and only a 1 day period for much of Florida... the difference in feed can be as vast as two quarts compared to 8 gallons... bees in the deep south area are built up ready for early splits by Feb 20th...


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## sqkcrk

hpm08161947 said:


> .... he likes the BBQ.


Mmm, BBQ.


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## Acebird

Is Michael Palmer missing the boat hunkering down in the deep snow?


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## rrussell6870

Michael is a breeder... he needs the winters there for promoting traits. Honey and nuc production have different needs.


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## rrussell6870

sqkcrk said:


> Mmm, BBQ.


Mmm, Crawfish etouffee... mmm, pepto...


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## sqkcrk

No. Michael has chosen a different path which allows him to spend the winter cross country skiing and visiting his children in places other than VT. Were I to decide to stay home, there would be alot of changes to go thru and some perhaps painful. Were Mike to share his story of trials and learning how to keep bees in NY and VT w/out migrating and w/out pollinating you would see how much work he has had to do and what he has had to go thru to maintain his success. If it were easy more would do it.

Going South or staying in the North each has its' own unique set of conditions and management techniques. Pluses and minuses.


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## sqkcrk

rrussell6870 said:


> Mmm, Crawfish etouffee... mmm, pepto...


I gotta get down there and have you show me how to eat dem tings. I see them in some of our Oriental restaurants and just don't dare.


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## rrussell6870

Ha! It's easy! Once your mouth is on fire from all of the spice, you can't stop eating... one learns how to be efficient when their lips are melting off. Lol.


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## rrussell6870

Chinese Crawfish is like Mexican sushi... its just not natural... lol. I will have to take you to a REAL cajun dinner... when you have to get there by boat, sit on a crab pot, and talk over the generator that is seemingly harmonizing with Boudreaux's Bayou Band and an old Blue Tick hound named Dat Dar Dawg... you know you have found the good stuff. Lol.

My stomach is burning just thinkin bout it... but its sooo worth the pain... lol.


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## Vance G

We have a good imitaion of a cajun resturant here and them mudbugs in etoufee are pretty easy to get along with! I know you ar talking about a better class, but I sure enjoy what we get here! It is like people here asking me how I like their bbq! All I say is it just ain't boll weevils! That is a little place in Tennessee right north of Alabama tht you can't find unless you are from there or have a friend who is! I get fatter just thinking about it.


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## rrussell6870

Sho nuf!  the etouffee isn't hot, its the boiled Crawfish, taters, and corn that will light you up. Lol.


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## Michael Palmer

sqkcrk said:


> Were Mike to share his story of trials and learning how to keep bees in NY and VT w/out migrating and w/out pollinating you would see how much work he has had to do and what he has had to go thru to maintain his success. If it were easy more would do it.


Yep, it's lots of work. I'm a beekeeper and it's what I love to do. So...the hours I spend are pleasurable. I may pass out when I stop for the day but I love it. I do sleep well!

Now...it isn't that difficult. Once you have the right bees, and the right management plan...it's easy. To me, being a non-migratory beekeeper working 80 hours a week is way easier than pollinating apoples and then moving my bees south. Easier on me and easier on my bees. If you would only try my methods you'll see for yourself how easy it really is. We do the labor, the bees do the work.


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## Michael Palmer

Acebird said:


> Is Michael Palmer missing the boat hunkering down in the deep snow?


Nope, quite the other way around. Bees and beekeepers alike need the winter off. Ahh...almost done here for the season. Put your feet up and another log on the fire!


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## Michael Palmer

rrussell6870 said:


> Michael is a breeder... he needs the winters there for promoting traits. Honey and nuc production have different needs.


Actually, don't you think it all works together? The selection for wintering starts with the nucs, and the better a colony winters the better the possibilities when the honey flows arrive.


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## sqkcrk

Michael Palmer said:


> Yep, it's lots of work.
> 
> ...working 80 hours a week ...


It's what works for Mike. I'm not made that way. Plus, he's smarter than me and a better businessman.


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## Acebird

> The selection for wintering starts with the nucs, and the better a colony winters the better the possibilities when the honey flows arrive.


Yes that is what I was thinking.

What I can't come to grips with if the south is a better place for your bees why not stay there? Don't the people that do stay in the south have a great advantage over you trucking bees back and forth every year? You have the expense and you have the losses. Is Upstate that much of a gold mine in the summer to go through that scenario? OK, supposing it is. Would it be better to strike a deal with Michael P. to buy his bees, use them for the summer and give them back and let him do what he does to overwinter them? It would be a much shorter run and the bees would be better suited for the north. I am thinking less losses. God forbid you learn how to do it yourself.

With my two hives, I can actually see the economics of buying nucs in the spring let them forage all season and then wiping them out at the end of the season. If I took everything, I would net more than double of what I paid for the nucs.

Mark, I know you said it is working for you but will you ever get a chance to slow down in later years keeping up this rat race? Do you have sombody as an understudy to carry it on while you just instruct?


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## sqkcrk

It may seem like a Rat Race at times, but I don't work 80 hr weeks like Mike. You could say I take my vacation/down time all thru the year. Only I don't go to CO to ski.

Nope, no understudy. I don't know now what will happen when I want to stop. That is a hard thing to imagine. Actually wrote a song about it. Not that it's much of a song.

Don't look at The South as being a better place to keep bees. It's alright for those who live there and keep bees, but I live here and I like living here, so I have figured out a way to do what I do, which includes the bees wintering in SC. They don't forage all winter long and they don't need tending all winter long. so, once they are in place in SC, I come home. Some winters I have left them alone from November until March. Other years I have visited them a cpl times between Oct. and March.

Buying Mikes bees and giving them back at the end of the season would not worki well for either of us, imo.


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## jim lyon

The perils of migratory beekeeping are many but the rewards can be great (if one only uses the popular monetary scale as a criteria). Folks like MP are few and far between in today's beekeeping world. I tried it for many years and just couldn't keep our numbers up without help from southern packages or nucs. As modest as he is MP is obviously a beekeeper of greater skill than I, his throw another log on the fire post made me envious. There are certainly areas in the south where year round beekeeping works and areas where it is difficult at best. If honey production is your first criteria for a year round location there are far more opportunities in the North.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird,
Trying to understand why someone does something can be futile. You have to live in their skin to fully understand why someone does what they do.

I started taking my bees south back in 1990 because I thought that would be more economical than buying packages. I had someone who would help me get them down there and I could work for them too. I needed bees for pollination in May and had no money to buy them and couldn't get them early enuf to establish them on comb to make them good pollinating colonies.

Once on the Migratory Treadmill it's hard to get off. You can't just get half way off. Though I do know beekeepers who take a semi load south and leave the rest here, replacing deadouts w/ selfraised nucs. It works for them.

I left 40 here for the winter and had 4 alive in June. 6 in May, but two were so poor they didn't make it.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> I don't know now what will happen when I want to stop. That is a hard thing to imagine.


You can't do it forever and it would be such a shame to create something good and not have it live on.

I just thought that a commercial guy that is a breeder and a commercial guy that is a honey producer and pollinator would be a natural for a good marriage. Beekeeping is truly a mystery. Why is it that experienced knowledgeable beekeepers like to mentor new beekeepers on what they do but are reluctant to listen to their own peers because it is different than what they have been doing for so long. Is it just fear of the unknown or the loss of the desire to experiment like they did when they first started?


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> I left 40 here for the winter and had 4 alive in June. 6 in May, but two were so poor they didn't make it.


I don't know from nothing. But could this be because you actually have southern bees that you bring north and not northern bees that you bring south? What if you did something crazy and bought 10-20 hives from Michael and sent all the rest down. If a good percentage made it would that be convincing? It might be a way to get off the treadmill. Do is slowly.

What do commercial beekeepers do through the winter whether you are from the south or the north?

I know I am opinionated but I also have a suspicion that pollinating apples and fruits in general adds to the death rate of your bees.


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## Acebird

jim lyon said:


> As modest as he is MP is obviously a beekeeper of greater skill than I, his throw another log on the fire post made me envious.


I will repeat, I am a know nothing when it comes to beekeeping but if I were in your shoes and tried and failed I'd be glued to his butt until I could do what he does or, OR I would be buying his bees. He is not going to live forever either.

What is in the cosmos? If your name is Michael you have a knack with bees. There has got to be something to it.


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## Daniel Y

I suspect that moving bees south for the winter is a lot like the need to move hives to California every summer. Bees are needed in the north every year, but keeping them there all year has big issues. That about right?

I also see the weakness Ace refers to may be getting built into you colonies as well. All that February build up is getting bred to southern bees or something like that. Not that it is a reason to stop doing it. I am fairly certain you do not do what you do simply due to boredom or anything.

But man it sure sounds like a lot of work and risk. I suppose you are going to remove the honey anyway. But the thought of the risk brings the thread of the wrecked truck to mind. 

I do have a question about the nucs you create along the way. What do you do with them? are they used to replace dead hives? just bees that you add to other colonies without re queening them. Do they create a late season source for buying nucs? I suspect there is not really a great market for late season nucs though.

You started on Oct 6th, it is now Oct 25th. so 19 days and you now have honey all gathered up and hives broken down to just the bees scattered over 14 yards? still have to gather up all those hives move them south and then spread them out again. Sounds to me like it runs into at least a couple months of work. My hat is off to you, seriously, that is some impressive effort.

When will you turn around and make the trip back?

I also gather that a large part of doing this is about that early build up that you can then bring back up north to do some real damage there. I guess in my mind it is more about bringing southern bees north each year rather than taking northern bees south.

It is also in my mind that taking bees south allows them to produce during a time they would otherwise be dormant. Is that true. Do you see any harvest from them during the time they are in the south? I suppose this whole idea of truck loads of bees getting moved around is just new to me. I knew they moved bees around in California by the truck load, but those Californians are weird anyway  But I thought it as just a few miles sort of thing.

Overall this entire thread leaves me with the thought. This would make a great documentary. "Fall of the Beekeeper". Get it, Fall? Autumn. he he. Okay so the title needs some work. I just think the common person would find this whole thing fascinating. or maybe it's just me. I can't imagine placing my entire livelihood on a truck and letting someone drive it around.


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## camero7

You might read "Following the Bloom" by Whynott. The story of Andy Card. Fascinating and will answer almost all of your questions.


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## rrussell6870

Michael Palmer said:


> Actually, don't you think it all works together? The selection for wintering starts with the nucs, and the better a colony winters the better the possibilities when the honey flows arrive.


Yep. That's exactly right. I was referring to the "honey and nuc production" operations as being different in the migratory sense... in one way they are not developing identifiable traits specific to a particular region, but on the other hand, they have hives packed with brood in early spring due to the southern flows, so they can produce nucs to sell, then produce a few hundred lbs of honey, then by the time the south gets hot and the flows start slowing, they can run north and repeat the process all over again as the northern flows are just starting to get rolling... 

I think its important for newbies to understand the differences in the flows between the regions... in the south, the bees build up in Feb-March and the main flow for production runs from March to Mid May... then the temps are getting so high that the blooms are drying and the flow is dwindling... a dearth begins unless there is agriculture nearby... the next big flow is in the late fall... for instance right now... while in the north, the flow really gets going about the time that the southern flow is dwindling but many more plants are blooming at once since they had all been repressed by winter and the summer temps are mild enough to be equal to a southern spring... so there is a long and heavy flow... 

So wintering bees in the south allows an operation to produce bees and honey there, the do it all over again in the north, then return to the south to reduce having to feed and replace bees... 

From a breeders standpoint, you need bees stationary in order to truly see whether their productivity is due to their genetics or their location... so for me, I keep bees stationary in all of the regions that I can... this way I move my work instead of the bees... I can rear queens in the south early and then rotate focus more toward the northern locations as the season progresses... it works well and I just move myself instead of the bees... speaking of which, I'm looking for more operations that wish to produce queens from my stocks in their area for acclimation promotion... if interested, just pm me it email me. Thanks.


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> I don't know from nothing. But could this be because you actually have southern bees that you bring north and not northern bees that you bring south?


So Mark has Southern Bees? Guess I have Northern Bees since I get my queens from one of your neighbors... upstate. I suspect it is a lot more complicated than that.


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## Acebird

Again, what do I know? But I really don't think it matters where you get your queen from when you are talking about southern bees vs. northern bees. I think what matters is what your bees have been accustom to climate wise. If your bees are temporarily in the north but they never see a northern winter they are southern bees no matter where the queen came from. If you get a southern queen and she never see the south again are you still going to call her offspring southern bees?

I do think where you get your queen from will affect survivability.


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## Acebird

rrussell6870 said:


> So wintering bees in the south allows an operation to produce bees and honey there, the do it all over again in the north, then return to the south to reduce having to feed and replace bees...


Now I can see the economics if you are harvesting another crop to pay for the losses and moving expenses.

OK now I have to ask if you are working the hive nearly full time when is the queen warn out? Wouldn't you have to replace more often. Are you getting the extra crop for free (only considering the queen now)? Or is this another reason hive loses are greater when you work them two seasons in one?


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> I think what matters is what your bees have been accustom to climate wise.


You know... with the exception of Queens... most bees only live long enough to experience one season. Not much chance for adaptation.


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## Daniel Y

hpm08161947 said:


> You know... with the exception of Queens... most bees only live long enough to experience one season. Not much chance for adaptation.


Not true, a colony is to some degree an organism in itself. One example I can think of of how a colony adapts even though the individuals never live long enough to. A queen hatches in a particular location. Who knows what factors influence her behavior. does she lay does she not, does she lay a lot or a little is she in winter spring summer or fall mode basically. Exactly what are the signals that influence these behaviors? Quite possibly they are coming from the environment and the portion of that environment that is being brought in to the hive. Now move that hive to a completely different environment with completely different and even alien signals. different timing , longer winter, shorter summer cooler night throughout the year. Some things the colony may adapt to quickly others they may adapt to more slowly and some they may not be able to adapt to at all. the Colony suffers and does what comes naturally. They produce a queen and that queen breeds with local drones. Hopefully introducing traits that are more adapted to the area.
To some degree individual bees do adapt. in other ways the entire colony must adapt and still in others only generations can effect the adaptation.


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## rrussell6870

Acebird said:


> Now I can see the economics if you are harvesting another crop to pay for the losses and moving expenses.
> 
> OK now I have to ask if you are working the hive nearly full time when is the queen warn out? Wouldn't you have to replace more often. Are you getting the extra crop for free (only considering the queen now)? Or is this another reason hive loses are greater when you work them two seasons in one?


Na. Just like keeping queens in the north promotes adaptation to long winters, keeping queens in constant season promotes adaptation to long seasons... a healthy, well mated queen will last 3-5 years regardless of how many eggs she lays each season...

I have developed brood factory queens that are laying 3-4 deeps wall to wall consistently to provide me with brood frames for multiple purposes, and they last just as long as the Carniolans and AMMs that shut down if the nectar flow decreases...

The key is to produce healthy queens, then get them mated and developed well...


----------



## rrussell6870

The workers in the colony do communicate stresses throughout the colony which are then answered genetically via the drones and the queen of the next generation... however, this is a very long process and can average about 140 generations before the stress is answered and the new set of traits appear consistently with each new generation... after that happens the whole process has to start over if the stress is reversed suddenly... particular traits may already exist close to the surface from more recent stresses, thus quickening the process... climatic stresses are among those that respond more readily in the bees of the US due to the workings of our industry...

It is the queen that carries the burden of timing her laying in order to survive harsh winters, thus taking a queen from the north and placing her in the south usually means replacement within the first full year, but then that new queen will have to be replaced once again within the next full year in order to express the traits picked up by mating with the southern drones... she still may not have the timing down perfectly though, this could still take many generations of being in that climate before the timing is perfected... 

So while the bees are communicating the stresses, the only real stress that Marks bees would be communicating is that the season is long and thus demands more brood production earlier, throughout, and later in the season...


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Why is it that experienced knowledgeable beekeepers like to mentor new beekeepers on what they do but are reluctant to listen to their own peers because it is different than what they have been doing for so long. Is it just fear of the unknown or the loss of the desire to experiment like they did when they first started?


I do listen to my peers. And I take what I hear and try to apply to my life and management practices those things that suit me and my circumstances. I have alot of peers that I discuss things w/. Most are not on beesource.com, though some are and some lurk here, but don't Post.

I don't know that I ever did all that much experimenting when I first started out. Made lots of mistakes, but not alot of experimentation. I mostly did what I do now and that is doing what seems to work for those I admire and respect and who seem to be successful.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> It might be a way to get off the treadmill.
> 
> What do commercial beekeepers do through the winter whether you are from the south or the north?
> 
> I know I am opinionated but I also have a suspicion that pollinating apples and fruits in general adds to the death rate of your bees.


Mike has done alot of work rearing queens from colonies that overwinter well to his criteria. I bought some from him and saw some of them in my hives last Spring, in SC. I'm not sure where the rest of them are. Superseded probably. I got them in '09 I believe. Anyway, Mike has Northern bees. My bees are mongrels, Caucasians, Carniolans, Italians and mixed. They are Northern bees that Winter in the South, or Southern bees that Summer in the North. Many originally came from California, FL and SC. The ones from SC came from Kutik Queens, reared by Lynn Barton. all the rest are raise their own queens.

We are all on Treadmills. I'm on the one I like, mostly. If I didn't like it I would change Treadmills.

I don't know that pollinating adds to the death rate of my bees, but it might. Moving has as much to do w/ it I suspect.

During the winter? Go to meetings.


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## sqkcrk

Daniel Y said:


> but keeping them there all year has big issues. That about right?
> 
> But man it sure sounds like a lot of work and risk.
> 
> What do you do with them? are they used to replace dead hives?
> 
> Sounds to me like it runs into at least a couple months of work. My hat is off to you, seriously, that is some impressive effort.
> 
> When will you turn around and make the trip back?
> 
> I guess in my mind it is more about bringing southern bees north each year rather than taking northern bees south.
> 
> It is also in my mind that taking bees south allows them to produce during a time they would otherwise be dormant. Is that true. Do you see any harvest from them during the time they are in the south?


It does for me.

I don't know anyone who doesn't have risk in their life. Me, I just do what needs to be done to try to keep as many hives alive as possible, which means trucking them South. And I have a good reliable trucker who has a bee suit, gloves and a smoker and will get on top and spread out the net. He's a keeper.

Nucs are mostly for selling. But, I use the ones I don't sell by replacing duds that happen from time to time. I try to come home w/ a live colony on every corner of the pallet, so I don't need lots of nucs. 100 is a good number for me to bring North in the Spring.

I brought in two yards worth of bees today w/ the last of the honey. I should be able to gather up all of the hives in the next 6 or 8 days, including a honey delivery day, getting a new windshield, getting an inspection and some work done on the trailer and packing honey to take along.

Then two days to get to where I unload. A cpl days to spread them out into 6 yds. Work for a friend for a week. Unload and spread another load for another friend. And then work my way home via Herb's for BBQ and visiting, my Sister's in MD and the Fall Mtng of eshpa.org in Syracuse Nov. 17, 18 and 19. Then home the 19th.

I'll be home Nov. 19th. The bees won't come North until March.

Whatever. If you really want to think about it, we are all using European Bees anyway. So, whetrher they are Northern Bees that go South or vice versa hardly means much because I don't leave them here. I guess you are right.

Not much honey production the way I do it. I'm growing bees, not producing honey. That come later, where the honey is better anyway.


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## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> And then work my way home via Herb's for BBQ and visiting, my Sister's in MD and the Fall Mtng of eshpa.org in Syracuse Nov. 17, 18 and 19.


And we do have some fine BBQ for you. My sister in law BBQed 4 pigs and since we assisted.. we were rewarded with quite a few pounds. Carlene took the BBQ and blended it with Venison BBQ.... then added our special local sauce (the secret is in the sauce!). I have been told that it is "To die for"... guess that is good. Just thought I'd give you something to think about on that long drive south.


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## rrussell6870

Mmm... this thread is making me hungry again! opcorn:


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## Mbeck

Why and how did you come to pick SC for your winter yards.

If you had to do it differently where would you like to try to winter and were would you like to try to summer.
I say try because I don't know if you have experience keeping bees everywhere in the USA, I seem to remember you saying you were in Florida.

I bet those good old boys in South Cacalacky never saw anyone quite like you.... A Charlie Daniels song comes to mind! hehehe!


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## sqkcrk

Mbeck said:


> Why and how did you come to pick SC for your winter yards.
> 
> If you had to do it differently where would you like to try to winter and were would you like to try to summer.
> 
> I bet those good old boys in South Cacalacky never saw anyone quite like you.... A Charlie Daniels song comes to mind! hehehe!


It was where a friend took his hives. He owns land there. It's a two day drive. Parents lived halfway between here and SC. Pollen is supposedly better than FL. FL is another day away. I spend 6 weeks in SC. FL was almost 3 months. 

I don't know what to say in response to the Charlie Daniels thing. You been looking at some photos?

One time I thought about taking bees to ND. I have a Sister-in-Law out there. Her Husband farms some 3,000 acres.


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## Mbeck

I was just curious on what set of circumstances led you to SC.

I certainly don't want to offend you or the great people of SC but Central New York is not south Carolina and it is possible to stick out like a sore thumb. 

That said I'm from Western New York and lived on the border of South Carolina, spent lots of time there and its truly one of my favorite places. It's full of great people but you do not need to remind them that you are not from there. 

The song I was thinking of was "Uneasy Rider". I would gather from your post your not " faithfull follower of Brother John Burch 
and Don't belong to the Antioch Baptist Church!!!


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## jim lyon

Acebird said:


> if I were in your shoes and tried and failed I'd be glued to his butt until I could do what he does or, OR I would be buying his bees. it.


Too late for that, I already sold out for the greed of migratory beekeeping long ago and that has hardly been a failure, it's just more work and risk than most folks want and being a net seller instead of buyer of bees has been a real boost. Besides I am pretty sure Mr. Palmer dosent want me glued to his butt


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## Michael Palmer

jim lyon said:


> Besides I am pretty sure Mr. Palmer dosent want me glued to his butt


Really! Too much dead weight here already. 

Wouldn't mind some company though Jim.


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## sqkcrk

Mbeck said:


> It's full of great people but you do not need to remind them that you are not from there. I would gather from your post your not " faithfull follower of Brother John Burch
> and Don't belong to the Antioch Baptist Church!!!


No offense taken, just wasn't sure what you meant. For the most part I've been well accepted by the locals, especially my Landowners. Just like anywhere, treat people and theie property w/ respect and you'll get along. I give folks down south a little more personal attention. I'll be calling them this week just to make sure I'm not interrupting any hunting.

No, not an Antioch Baptist Church member. I have found a UU Church to attend, which I enjoy. A good mix of Locals and Snowbirds.

I don't network well, but I do alright. And there are a number of fellow NY Beekeepers I can call on in aa pinch or just to dine w/ and compare notes w/. Then there is Herb and his son Matt, from NC, who along w/ Herb's wife, I have come to know and will be visiting on the way north. So, things are good.

I don't mind sticking out. It isn't as bad now as it once was. 'nuther story.


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## Acebird

rrussell6870 said:


> a healthy, well mated queen will last 3-5 years regardless of how many eggs she lays each season...


Not for nothing, that is not pinning the life span down much. That is a 40% spread. You wouldn't say the lifespan of a human is 60 to 100 years whether they smoke or not would you? It might be that queens that produce fewer eggs in a shorter season live 5 years and queens that produce more eggs in a long season live 3 years. Your statement still agrees with this scenario.


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## Acebird

rrussell6870 said:


> It is the queen that carries the burden of timing her laying in order to survive harsh winters, thus taking a queen from the north and placing her in the south usually means replacement within the first full year, but then that new queen will have to be replaced once again within the next full year in order to express the traits picked up by mating with the southern drones... she still may not have the timing down perfectly though, this could still take many generations of being in that climate before the timing is perfected...
> 
> So while the bees are communicating the stresses, the only real stress that Marks bees would be communicating is that the season is long and thus demands more brood production earlier, throughout, and later in the season...


I don't get it. These two paragraphs appear to me to be contradicting. You said in your last post the queen lives 3-5 years and then is this post the queens needs replacing in the first year.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> I don't mind sticking out. It isn't as bad now as it once was. 'nuther story.


When I was a young wipper snapper I worked in the textiles and those plants are in NC, SC, GA, VA, TX, and even OH. I found the people to be very hospitable and friendly. They welcomed me into their homes and fed me real catfish, fried ocra, and pan fried chicken. It was a wonderful experience but I just couldn't get use to the gits. There is a common saying in the south for yankees "The difference between a yankee and a **** yankee is a **** yankee doesn't know enough to go home." I alway went home and was always invited to come back and visit.


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> There is a common saying in the south for yankees "The difference between a yankee and a **** yankee is a **** yankee doesn't know enough to go home." I alway went home and was always invited to come back and visit.


I can not tell much difference in an Upstate NY country boy and a down south country boy.... seems like the same kind of critter to me. Now.... NYC... that's a different species.


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## Acebird

hpm08161947 said:


> I can not tell much difference in an Upstate NY country boy and a down south country boy.... seems like the same kind of critter to me. Now.... NYC... that's a different species.


Yeah, but if you say you are from New York the whole world assumes that is the big apple. I agree, a country boy is a country boy even if you are from a different country.


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## sqkcrk

A pretty full day today. Left at 7:30, picked up pallets of beehives from 7 yds, 54 pallets, three trips. Finished up at 5:30. Got the bees from the Cranberry Yd and got two 5 gallon buckets of cranberries. Got the bees from the Orchard yard and picked a half a grocery bag of apples. Skipped the Lunch Yd., my favorite. 

Talked to Ken, my Trucker. I think we're loading and leaving about a week from tomorrow.

I still have 7 more yds to get hives from. Getting a new windshield tomorrow morning and then picking up more hives.

The weather has been just about ideal for picking up pallets of bees during daylight hours lately. Mid to low 40s and heavily overcast. No need for gloves, but a smoker still comes in handy.

Once I get them all here to the Home Yd I'll shift hive around so all the pallets destined for the truck are full and of even level and even number. I have some singles, a bunch of story and a halfs and a bunch of doubles. Should be an interesting load to build. High in the front and then nlower in the back or vice versa. I don't know that it really matters.


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## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> I have some singles, a bunch of story and a halfs and a bunch of doubles. Should be an interesting load to build. High in the front and then nlower in the back or vice versa. I don't know that it really matters.


So these all go on the F450? We have that problem too... but then we aren't traveling very far. Can you boards when you have odd ones like that? Strapping would be the challenge... I guess.


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> Yeah, but if you say you are from New York the whole world assumes that is the big apple.


I should never knock the Big Apple, my brother spent most of his life there... and I mean right smack in the middle of Manhatten. Me...whenever I visited... I felt so claustrophobic! I felt like all those tall buildings were going to fall on me. But I remember him saying that he could not understand why anyone would want to live anywhere else but NYC.... guess he did not need to see the sky.


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## sqkcrk

hpm08161947 said:


> So these all go on the F450? We have that problem too... but then we aren't traveling very far. Can you boards when you have odd ones like that? Strapping would be the challenge... I guess.


I picked up one yd of story and a halfs, 8 pallets, which made two rows. One pallet did have a dbl on one corner, but that wasn't hard to deral w/. The next yard was all dbls. Then the third yd was soingles except one of the six pallets had two dbls on it. So I stacked the excluders and the unused covers and built up a stack on top of the last pallet of singles so the board could hold everything down on that row, which was on the head of the trailer.

I don't strap every row. Just the second, fourth and fifth rows. And whatever is on the ttrailer. It rides pretty rough back there.


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## hpm08161947

IC... buildem up with lids... gotta remember that trick. You have got those cranking straps too... the kind that bold to the bed of the truck I believe. We may need to have some of those installed on the bed of the GMC.


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## sqkcrk

No, just ratchet straps.


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## Acebird

hpm08161947 said:


> But I remember him saying that he could not understand why anyone would want to live anywhere else but NYC....


It is an amazing psychology ... They have three locks on their front door because they don't trust what is on the other side. When they come up hear they can't stand the peace because there is nothing on the other side.


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## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> It is an amazing psychology ... They have three locks on their front door because they don't trust what is on the other side.


Have you ever heard of the "Big Apple Circus"??


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## sqkcrk

Well, there a good productive days and then there are days like this one.

The day started off well, w/ the instalation of a new windshield. New windshield and new glasses gives one a nice view on life.

I had to unlad the Bonbcat from the trailer and put the truck in 4WD to get as close to the hives as I could and still had to drive aways w/ the Bobcat to get them. There were 6 pallets of story and a halfs so I thought I could make two trips. Seems I've heard it said before that haste makes waste. Or is that waist? I forget.

Anyway, started down the trail w/ 3 pallets of hives and trhen the top pallet started sliding back towards me. Before I could set the stack down and stick out my hand to keep the pallet from ending up in my lap, a deep had fallen off of one corner onto the ground. It was full of bees and honey. I muscled the pallet back up where it belonged, got down on the ground and set the deep where it came from and got the stack down to the truck. Got everything loaded and got out to the road.

Went to the next yard, which had 6 pallets too. But, they way the farm roads were torn up by the farmer's tractor no way could I drive the truck in near the hives. Though I tried to get closer only to tear out a tail light out of the trailer when it bottomed out on a good size rock. So I parked the truck up by the barn and drove the Bobcat close to a half a mile to where the hives sat.

Taking two pallets at a time I decided to take a path, going out, that the tractor had not. Big mistake. I got to a wet spot and before I knew what happened I was bogging down. Fortunately I got the Bobcat out from under the pallets of hives before I really got stuck. But, I was stuck. About as badly as one could.

I went to the truck and called the landowner and about 45 minutes later he showed up and we wrestled w/ the Bobcat, first getting his Kubota stuck and then getting the bigger tractor to pull the Kubota and then my Bobcat out of the mud.

Got the two pallets to the tyruck and went back for more. This time, staying on the road. Even though the road was a muddy mess, it had a bottom which wasn't too deep.

So, only two smallish yds brought in today. Honey deliveries tomorrow and back at hauling bees Saturday. At least it is cool enuf the bees don't fly much at all.


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## Acebird

Would a skid steer be better suited for what you are doing? It probably has disadvantages when you are on better ground or pavement. Maybe just drag them all out on a couple of 6x6's if the farmer will let you use his tractor.


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## sqkcrk

Bobcat is a skidsteer loader. Dragging would be disasterous.


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## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> Anyway, started down the trail w/ 3 pallets of hives and trhen the top pallet started sliding back towards me. Before I could set the stack down and stick out my hand to keep the pallet from ending up in my lap, a deep had fallen off of one corner onto the ground. It was full of bees and honey. I muscled the pallet back up where it belonged, got down on the ground and set the deep where it came from and got the stack down to the truck. Got everything loaded and got out to the road.
> .


Wow - three pallets at time... and over rough ground too. I've seen Matt do that... but me... I just ain't that good. Maybe in a parking lot. And on top of that... you are by yourself. I remember one time... bout 2 in the morning when Matt dumped one of those 3 pallet loads - now that was a mess... guy could really get hurt too. I remember figuring I was in the middle of about 200000 crawling bees... a bee suit is not much good in the middle of the night... at least it seemed that way.

Doesn't sound like anything lost... that's good.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Dragging would be disasterous.


No chance of dumping pallets of bees on you. Actually you could ratchet strap the pallets to the 6x6's and not loose anything. I guess you are having fun doing it your way. I hope the family has a lot of life insurance on you. Extra disability insurance might not be a bad idea either.


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## sqkcrk

Ace, I appreciate the suggestions. But, if what you propose were practical I would consider it. But it isn't really. What you propose would be alot more work. I would have to carry more and different equipment. The way I do it now works adequately under most conditions. I still haven't learned everything I should know. Such as, take my time. More trips would have been safer in the first yd.

But thanks for trying.


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## honeyshack

Sqkcrk,
I hear ya on days like those. Seems like nothing much gets accomplished but making more rutts in a field.
The good thing...you did not get hurt...a blessing.
The good thing...did not dump the hives. That in itself is good
Did not take a third tractor to pull you out, nor did it mean breaking several pieces of equipment trying to get you out. Think of the red neck way of pulling yourself out. It includes an Ajax stack mover, many logging chains and cables (all of which are broken now).

Mud is no fun


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## hpm08161947

The North must have some serious mud!! Guess a swinger would not work out too well in those kind of yards. Maybe a 4 wheel drive tractor with a pallet lift on the rear? On second thought.... guess a bobcat is about as well adapted as it gets.

And this can certainly be dangerous work... when you work alone. Yesterday, I fell off the flatbed for the second time in about 3 months - and it's a big tall flatbed. Laying there in the dirt... I couldn't believe I did not break anything... but I didn't. I must still have pretty tough bones for an old guy. For safety sake... I do one thing.... I always carry a cell phone in my pocket. If I landed on my head... guess it wouldn't do me much good.


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## sqkcrk

Yeah, looking at it that way, it was a good day. Nobody died or got hurt. Not much got broken that couldn't get fixed anyway. And I learned something.

Get the bees in more accessible locations.
Take my time.

Now if I can only remember so I don't have to learn those things again.


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## rrussell6870

May as well go ahead and dump them if your going to drag them, one way or another, their coming out of the hives and comb is getting torn up... Mark did well... nothing works out perfectly, its the ability to adapt and get through the struggles that makes the difference between success and failure... 

I have a 4x4 kabota with forks on the loaded with a custom chain and binder attachment on the forks... get stacked, set a blank pallet on top and toss the chain over and bind it down then get after it... have been through some serious mess with it this past year with the floods... one yard had to be carried across flood waters that were so deep that the tractor seat was below that water level... VERY SCARY, but got finished about an hour before the area where the bees were went completely under... after the water drained off, the water mark in the bee yard was nearly 18' off the ground and that's with 3' of silt on the ground... what a mess... 

Gets wild at times, but wouldnt trade it for anything.


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## camero7

One of my yards is so muddy that I can't get in right now. Was totally dry last year. So I'm waiting until freeze up to move the hives to their winter location. But with 6" of snow on the way, winter is probably here.


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## honeyshack

Just for you sqkcrk,

Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCcWzLAcv4o


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## Acebird

honeyshack said:


> Mud is no fun


It is perfect for sliding ...


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## sqkcrk

Thanks alot honeyshack. That's a goodin.

My most memorable stuck was remedied by a team of draft horses of indeterminent breeding.

Then there was the time the rear axle of my '88 Dodge was down in a ditch on Paris Hill Rd the night of a really big snow storm. Two tow trucks couldn't pull me out, even w/ one hitched to the other. When the Boss Towman got there he showed the yoiunger guys how to do it by running the tow cable down under the tow bar for a lower angle of pull. That was fun.

But, ya never been stuck until you get a semi stuck in SC sand. Man can a semi dig a hole fast.

Thanks again honeyshack.


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> It is perfect for sliding ...


A lounging barn floor covered in cow manure is pretty good for sliding too. Used to manure ski behind cows by holding onto their tails. Good times.


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## CharlieN

sqkcrk said:


> A lounging barn floor covered in cow manure is pretty good for sliding too. Used to manure ski behind cows by holding onto their tails. Good times.


 :lpf: The image that comes to mind reading this....... Thanks Mark, for reminding me of the fun we used to have as kids doing some, well, interesting things....

Charlie


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## sqkcrk

Some things are best left in the past though memories linger on. Ah youth.


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## Acebird

LOL never had the nerve. Watched others do it.


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## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> Used to manure ski behind cows by holding onto their tails. Good times.


Must be an Upstate NY kind of thing... never heard of it down here. Although, I would think we may have some equally interesting past times - Maybe **** hunting in the middle of the night.


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## Acebird

If you fall down it doesn't brush off like snow does.


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## sqkcrk

hpm08161947 said:


> Must be an Upstate NY kind of thing... never heard of it down here. Although, I would think we may have some equally interesting past times - Maybe **** hunting in the middle of the night.


Nope Herb, you are wrong. That's one of my John C. Campbell Folk School memories.


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## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> Nope Herb, you are wrong. That's one of my John C. Campbell Folk School memories.


IC.. wouldn't ya know.... a Brasstown kinda thing. That is truly a unique place. Carlene will be proud.


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## sqkcrk

Well, I was almost fresh out of High School and relatively unsupervised.


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## sqkcrk

Got the last of the bees brought into the Home Yard. A few covers to nail down and a few hives to move around to fill out empty spaces and then I will be ready for the Semi. Hope to leave Thursday morning. Will have a full Semi and my F-450 will probably be full too. Often is.


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## sqkcrk

Loading day is here. Hoping to leave tomorrow morning. So much to do to be ready.


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## Daniel Y

Best of luck and smooth roads.


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## hpm08161947

Leaving on Thur will put you in SC on Fri evening.. or so - I suppose. And I would guess you would be unloading and placing over the weekend. If you find that you need syrup and can not get it from CK.... give me a call/PM/text etc... and I will get it lined up for you. Going to get some for myself today - still took about 48 hours to line it up. Seems it is coming in solid from out in the midwest (ADM product) and has to be thawed.

Be safe.


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## Scrapfe

Good luck and I hope you don't have any puffer woes like you did on the last trip down.


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## Mbeck

Moving is so stressful don't over do it.


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## sqkcrk

Loaded and ready to go. I'm sleeping here for the night, rather than driving a cpl of hours and paying for a bed and not sleeping well anyway. My Trucker took off a cpl hours ago and will sleep where he wishes to, having a sleeper cab and all. I'll get up at 5:00, or before if I can't get back to sleep, and get on the road.

My Trucker wants to start unloading at 7:00 AM Friday. I don't think that's likely. He wanted to go later in the week, instead of Monday, so he wouldn't be sitting around for two days waiting for work. So, now he wants to hurry up and get unloaded so he can make a pickup by 1:00PM in Columbia. So, I'm supposed to hurry? We'll see. But I'm not sleeping in my truck. No way. Too uncomfortable.


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## RogerCrum

Have a safe trip Mark. Keep the shiny side up.
Roger


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## beeware10

mark have a good trip. you had bad luck last year so the bugs should be worked out now. see ya soon in syracuse.


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## sqkcrk

Gettin' on da road now. See ya.


----------



## Intheswamp

You're long gone, but...be careful non-the-less. 

Hmm, looks like 80% chance of rain tonight and 30% in the morning...might be some grumpy ladies Friday morning. 

Best wishes,
Ed


----------



## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> Gettin' on da road now. See ya.


NPR all day and part of the night?? That is assuming that you can hear the radio over that diesel better than I can.


----------



## sqkcrk

No problem hearing the radio as long as the windows are closed.

Just about the fastest trip I've ever made. Left home at 5:30AM and arrived at the Motel in Mullins, SC at about 9:30PM. Got up at 5:00AM today and drove the last 15 or so miles, in the rain. Kinda cool too.

Started unloading the semi at about 6:30 and Ken left for his next load 2 hrs later. Then using Bill K's truck and mine we moved hives to 4 yds, being a cool, windy, and overcast day. Two yds left to put hives in. That'll be tomorrow mornings work.

Truck seems to be running well. So far no problems. The next semi, Bill's bees, will be here next wednesday. In the mean time there are colonies to go thru, feed syrup and pollen sub.


----------



## Intheswamp

Glad you made it down there safely...now get to work! 

Ed


----------



## sqkcrk

Got all the hives moved out to their yds Saturday. Day off Sunday. Picked up 400 gallons of corn syrup and 400 Pollen Pattys. Worked the 96 cols in Pond Yd.. Moved feeders into top deep and installed pollen pattys. Going back tomorrow AM and fill feeders. Some hives had two feeders in them. So I took the extra one out to use in hives that don't have feeders.


----------



## Intheswamp

You know something, you sound a bit tired. Get some rest.

Are you taking any pictures of your work? That would be interesting.

Take care,
Ed


----------



## sqkcrk

Pictures? Oh yeah, I forgot about the film crew following me around. 

No, sorry. No camera or time to use one. I'm slow enuf as it is.


----------



## honeyshack

Take care and don't forget to eat and sleep


----------



## Intheswamp

sqkcrk said:


> Pictures? Oh yeah, I forgot about the film crew following me around.
> 
> No, sorry. No camera or time to use one. I'm slow enuf as it is.


Hmm, local television crew, small two or three minute docu-episode for the local viewing audience after the sports and weather. I could see that happening. 

I'd be willing to bet that your as fast as most and more detailed than the average. I'm sure when you get them all put to bed that those ladies will be nice and comfy and ready for old man winter. Keep up the good work!

Take care,
Ed


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> No, sorry. No camera or time to use one. I'm slow enuf as it is.


I am sure there is a local beekeeper that would follow you around and take pictures for no compensation other than to learn. He might even lend a hand if you are not too hard on him.


----------



## sqkcrk

I have run across very few local beekeepers down here. Photos haven't been that high a priority to me in quite some time.

A pretty full day today. Bill K. and I worked thru two yards, applying syrup and protien pattys. The first one w/ 128 hives and the second w/ about 96 hives. Then we had a cpl hours break before Bills' Semi Load arrived about 5:30. An hour later it was unloaded.

Up early tomorrow to move hives out to their yds. And the same for the next cpl days. Maybe a load out in the evening too. We'll see.


----------



## Intheswamp

Are we having fun, yet? :lookout:


----------



## sqkcrk

It's a job. I enjoy it.


----------



## Intheswamp

Enjoying your job takes a lot of the work out of it. 

Ed


----------



## sqkcrk

Off to Manning to work w/ Kutiks tomorrow, for a cpl days.


----------



## beeware10

looks like you'll be back up here for the nys bee meeting. tomorrow we are going to the pa state meeting. never been before. mini vacation reguardless of what the wife thinks. see ya in syracuse the following weekend.


----------



## sqkcrk

Be sure to introduce yourself.


----------



## sqkcrk

Got over to Manning yesterday. Got two tons of Protien Patties loaded on my truck. Five of us went to work Chucks bees. Scraping wax off of inside of covers, applying patties and syrup, we got thru two yds. Worked maybe 850 cols.

Going off to work another yd and then back near here to unload a Semi load of bees this evening. Chuck has yds which have a semi load in them, so he doesn't have to move them out to Out Yds. More efficient that way, in a number of ways.


----------



## sqkcrk

Got thru another good sized yd. Had lunch w/ David and Janice Green of Hemingway, SC. Went to Camp Yd and worked a bunch of bees while waiting for the Semi to get in.

He arrived about 5:30 or so. The pallets were stacked too high for my Bobcat tyo reach the top two pallets, so I tried to take down three. That was a mistake. Which I didn't realize until I was about level w/ the deck of the truck. Then I felt the tipping of the machine and the whole thing went crashing to the ground. Fortunately I was able to bring the head board back quickly enuf not to spill the pallets and the headboard down quickly enuf not to flip them when my back end went back down as it does under such circumstances. No broken equipment, not one hurt.

After that, Chuck took down the top two pallets and I took down the lower two. Pretty much got the load off and spread in about an hour/ hour and a half. Another good long day.

The best thing about working w/ folks who have had experiences is being together. There's lots we've seen and done and survived. Let's do it some more.


----------



## Acebird

I am beginning to wonder if this Bobcat is well suited...


----------



## hpm08161947

I can tell you one thing... It takes a skilled bobcat operator to keep from dumping that load of pallets. I've seen my son in a similar situation... but alas... he wasn't quite quick enough.


----------



## Acebird

hpm08161947 said:


> It takes a skilled bobcat operator to keep from dumping that load of pallets.


That implies an element of danger and suggests that the equipment is not suited. A simple hoist, crane, or drop tail gate lift sounds like a better way to get the stacks to the ground then use the Bobcat to move them where you want. Hard to say without seeing what you are doing.


----------



## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> Hard to say without seeing what you are doing.


The pallets are heavier than expected and they are high in the air.... the bobcat begins to tip forward. As the pallets come down the operator has to quickly use his feet (as he is being lifted into the air) to level the pallets as the ground approaches. Really tricky maneuver. Yeah - can be dangerous... but I know of nothing else that could do it that fast in rough terrain.


----------



## jim lyon

Acebird said:


> Hard to say without seeing what you are doing.


Agreed.


----------



## sqkcrk

Commercial Beekeeping is not for the faint of heart.


----------



## swarm_trapper

thanks for the posts mark i always enjoy reading about other commercial operations.


----------



## Acebird

hpm08161947 said:


> Yeah - can be dangerous... but I know of nothing else that could do it that fast in rough terrain.


Had a feeling it was all about speed.

Maybe you could rig up a bob "tail" for the bob cat. Fix a poll with a heavy weight on it and hydraulically actuate it so it swings down when you bring the load down. When you bring the forks up the tail would go up. This will counter balance the load and stop the cat from tipping forward. No loss in time but a whole lot safer. When cruising empty you could lock the tail in the up position.


----------



## beeware10

mark by the time you up here you will be well educated by ace on how to run your loader. ya better hurry if your going to make the meeting. see ya


----------



## sqkcrk

Yeah, I kinda just expect that whatever I write Ace will try to suggest alternatives. That's okay. It's his way of exploring ideas. I am confident that I know what I am doing. And, the solution was found. Use the right machine for the high and heavy ones. 

There is no one right machine for all situations. So, it would have been better had I had a machine like Chucks' to begin w/, but I don't. No big deal. The job got done.

According to what I am hgearing from those who use them, had I the money, a Bobcat w/ tracks is the way to go. Maybe I'll look into that.

I like having a Bobcat w/ original arms and exchangeable headboard w/ forks and a bucket. Having a bucket comes in handy when leveling yds or moving snow. Having arms means I can reach across the deck of my truck and drag a pallet or two close enuf to pick up. In otherwords, I can work from one side of the truck if I want or need to. Can't do that w/ a machine w/ a Mast.

Masted machines have certain advantages over Bobcats w/ arms. But I like to do more than just lift and load. I do love to watch someone who really knows how to load a semi w/ a masted Bobcat w/ a 5th Wheel. Those guys are fast. And know how to organize a load before the Semi arrives for loading.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> According to what I am hgearing from those who use them, had I the money, a Bobcat w/ tracks is the way to go. Maybe I'll look into that.


I thought you said your Bobcat was a skid steer? It was my impression that a skid steer has a track drive as opposed to wheels and usually a larger machine. Maybe I have that wrong.

Yes Mark, I do try to give suggestions on how to solve problems. They are not always orthodox but usually help out in some way. What do you do at your end when Chuck or his maching is not there? Only trying to help.

There is another facility like this one in Syracuse where the owner was paying a guy 40K a year to maintain the facility which is primarily clearing snow. The owner already owned a Bobcat and I showed him what I was doing with a tractor and a truck. So he bought a used plow truck for 12K and built a blower attachment for the Bobcat and let the guy go. He has been kissing my butt every year since.

Having no fear can be a good quality for getting things done but it tends to shorten one's lifespan. As you get older your abilities will diminish and we all hate to admit that it is happening. There could come one time when you are just not quick enough to react to the situation. Everyone of us hopes that never happens.


----------



## jim lyon

I always thought a bobcat on tracks would be the way to go because they don't drop into holes and would be smoother but someone who used one cautioned me that they really tear up turf when you turn. A couple years ago I wouldn't have believed I am saying this but once you get used to a Hummer/Swinger wheeled loader you will never go back. Visibility, access, smooth on rough terrain, narrower and higher lift capacities are the main reasons. Hope this dosent derail your thread too much but seems more like a blog anyway.


----------



## Acebird

http://www.hummerbee.com/hummerbeemovies.html
Now your talking.
Looks to be purpose built.


----------



## sqkcrk

No problem Jim. It's a conversation.

Ace, skidsteer loaders are primarily wheeled machines. I don't usually work on Chucks' loads when he isn't here. Had he not been it would have been more interesting an unloading job. Probably would have moved the truck to better terrain a cpl times and added weight to the back of the machine. My loads I don't have problems w/ because I build them up North and dismantle them down South and vice versa.

A man's got to know his limitations.

We got another 400 some hives done today. We put Erics' truck on my trailer for a ride back to NY. Chuck will bring my Bobcat on his trailer. Leaving for Herbs' tomorrow morning and then Ny Thursday morning.

Thanks for thye advice Ace, but I'm not kissing anyones' butt, thankyou.


----------



## hpm08161947

jim lyon said:


> I always thought a bobcat on tracks would be the way to go because they don't drop into holes and would be smoother but someone who used one cautioned me that they really tear up turf when you turn.


Not trying to start another hummer - bobcat war.... because I have read about enough of them. But I have got to say that on reasonable terrain... a hummer/swinger looks hard to beat. But I have no experience using one and very little observing one. I strongly suspect that deep in the woods on some gosh awful terrain, my little bobcat might just be able to keep up and I could probably buy 2 or 3 bobcats for the price of one of those hummer/swingers..... but they are nice.


----------



## sqkcrk

Well,
Got on the road this morning and before we could get up the highway to Florence thge truck started acxting up. Limped down to Conway, SC so the Conway Ford could see what they could do w/ it. Had to be towed the last 5 miles.

They got it right in the garage, as soon as Mikey got back from lunch. So far Restricted Fuel flow(replace fuel filters) and bad injectors. They are keeping it over night and hope to have it ready for the road tomorrow morning. Gonna get an Oil and Filter Change and a Coolant Flush and replacement.

Wish me well.


----------



## beeware10

well at least you got the bees there ok. my biggest fear is breaking down with a load of bees. hope ya get on the road ok tomorrow.


----------



## sqkcrk

Me too.


----------



## hpm08161947

Wonder if you got a bad load of fuel somewhere? Filters should have taken care of that.. though. Hope it's not as expensive as it sounds,,,


----------



## sqkcrk

The Service Manager said it might have something to do w/ Bio-Deisel. But I don't know how much she knows about Diesel Trucks or if she was just repeating something she heard.

Now the word is that the front tank is deteriorating, the liner coming apart, and clogging the fuel filters. Suzanne list four injectors whgich need replacing. The front fuel tank needs replacing, which would take four days. I don't see why I can't run on one tank. They don't feed into each other anyway.


----------



## hpm08161947

Were you burning Biodiesel in the F450?


----------



## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> Now the word is that the front tank is deteriorating, the liner coming apart, and clogging the fuel filters. Suzanne list four injectors whgich need replacing. The front fuel tank needs replacing, .


Hmmm - Hope you are not dealing with one of those places that tries to fleece it's customers. 

Had injector problems once on the tractor and they siad it was a bad deteriorating fuel tank.... turned out it was nothing of the sort.

Ever dealt with these guys before?


----------



## sqkcrk

Yes, they rebuilt the truck last year. I don't think they are fleecers.

How and why would a tank deteriorate like that? What would cause it to do so?

Bio-Diesel? What's available between here and NY, who knows? Doesn't everythinbg have ethonol in it?


----------



## hpm08161947

You would not be getting biodiesel at any commercial truck stops that I am aware of.... but maybe things have changed. 

I once looked at an F750 that had low mileage and low price.... I was advised some of the F750's had been made in Mexico and had tanks that would deteriorate and wack injectors..... so - maybe something to what they are saying.... never heard it about the F450's. I think problems like that are usually endemic. I would be suspicious.


----------



## beeware10

mark I would ask them how anything could go thru the fuel filter to plug a injector. that part does not seem right. the filter should stop the junk and changing the filter should correct it until it plugged again.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Doesn't everythinbg have ethonol in it?


I wouldn't think diesel does. Maybe you got moisture in the tank or the filling station did. I don't see why it needs both tanks either. Just shut one off.


----------



## sqkcrk

hpm08161947 said:


> I would be suspicious.


I'm going to ask them to show me what they are talking about.

What can I do? I'm kinda at their mercy.

I'm sure there is alot I don't know about what is going on. Hopefully I will know more before I leave.

It just occurs to me that there must be a new bee virus going round. BTV, aka Bee Truck Virus. First Chucks' and Erics' trucks breakdown and while carrying Erics' truck to Florence to get Chucks' truck back from the Truck Hospital my truck breaks down and needs repair. Seems like w/ all the stuff mine's been thru it would have some immunity.


----------



## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> I
> It just occurs to me that there must be a new bee virus going round. BTV, aka Bee Truck Virus. First Chucks' and Erics' trucks breakdown and while carrying Erics' truck to Florence to get Chucks' truck back from the Truck Hospital my truck breaks down and needs repair. Seems like w/ all the stuff mine's been thru it would have some immunity.


Maybe you need to check out that Treatment Free Truck Driving Forum? Or we could just wait till Ace tells you what the solution is?


----------



## hpm08161947

So Chuck's truck broke, Eric's truck broke, and your truck. They were not all injector problems were they. If so, maybe there some bad diesel fuel out there on 95... man.. that would be strange.

You guys all fuel up at the same place in Manning?


----------



## sqkcrk

Chucks' truck was a sensor problem. Not sure what Erics' trucks' problem is. Y'all know what I know about my truck.

If one switches tanks when the truck sends a warning bell and the Tank Empty warning is displayed, could that be part of the problem? Even though 4 gallons apparently remain in the tank, since when filling them up they don't take what they hold? Maybe I will have to change my habits and switch tanks according to the gauges.


----------



## Roland

SQKCRK - I know it is too late this time, but carry a spare fuel filter and enough fuel to fill it. When we have a problem with a Quad axle dump truck engine, the default response is to change the fuel filter(s). I would have them change the filters and then fire it up. If the injector lines are external, you can verify which injectors are bad by cracking the line nut while it is idling. It will be just like pulling a spark plug wire on a gas engine. If there is no RPM change, you found your bad hole(injector).

What engine and year do you have?

Crazy Roland


----------



## sqkcrk

Bad injectors already determined.

6L Diesel, 2005.


----------



## Acebird

I have never owned a diesel but it is never a good idea to run a tank dry. When the fuel gets that low it sloshes in the tank and picks up the sludge. It doesn't take much to plug an injector and no service station will spend the time to try and clean them because of labor paying for the part. I know some truckers blend a little kero in the diesel but I think that is more to do with gelling in the winter.
I had a brand new chevy pickup (week old) once that got screwed up with bad gas. At that time the fuel filters were a joke. They spring loaded the element for a seal and when the filter plugged up the pressure of the fuel pump would unseat the element and let the gas (and junk) through. I don't know what ying yang would design such a system. I am sure diesels are totally different. But it is possible that the fuel filter got installed incorrectly or was compromised in some way. The last thing you want to do is rely on the filter anyway. I am sure there is a recommended replacement schedule that gets over looked. Most people don't think about fuel filters.


----------



## wildbranch2007

http://www.finishing.com/442/19-2.shtml

I only read part of the write up but apparently the new low sulfur fuel has an additive in it, only in the north east that causes the fuel tank to delaminate, ford doesn't waranty as tank would be fine for older fuel.

This is a follow-up of my previous post. We also have discovered two more trucks having the same problem. We have a 2005 F-550 that has two tanks. The tank number on my previous 3 trucks matches one of the two tanks YC35-9K007-F8, and the 2nd tank 5C34-9K007-RA). 

there appear to be after market fuel tanks that don't have the problem.


----------



## hpm08161947

Yup... that is what I had heard about in the F750. Mark's gonna love reading that article... well - maybe not!


----------



## Acebird

Ford may not be responsible for the tanks delaminating but they sure are responsible for not telling Ford owners of the problem before it involves engine work. So much for the filters ... that is my experience, useless.


----------



## beeware10

mark-- been looking for a update. are you still in the garage? looks like ya had a lot of rain today. I'm thinking if you get going your going to stop in syracuse on the way home.


----------



## Roland

Acebird - your gasoline experiences may not be applicable here. Most diesels have a suction and return line going to the tank, so there is a constant flow of fuel to filters, to the engine, and back to the tank. This help to keep the fuel a little warm in winter, and eliminates most particulate surprises in the bottom of the tank. The first fuel filter sometimes has a water separator on it to catch the liquid surprise at the bottom of the tank. This is not like running a 70's Quadrajet on a Chevy 350.

Mark - you on the road yet?

Crazy Roland


----------



## beeware10

I'll bet mark is out eating bbq some place. (or hitch hiking back home)


----------



## hpm08161947

AS a matter of fact, Mark has just finished eating a nice plate of BBQ. My wife and I took him and Lynn Barton some of her special homemade NC BBQ. As well as a couple large slices of her honey pear pie. We caught up with them at a rest stop on Hwy 95 and had nice discussion about bees and Diesel maintenance. He's headed North to Syracuse for the Empire State Bee meeting. He's got a lot of miles to go.


----------



## beeware10

good to to hear. this was starting to be a soap opera.


----------



## sqkcrk

Made it to Syracuse an hour ago.


----------



## Acebird

So Roland, if the filters work as designed than why would delamination of the tank plug the injectors? It should plug the filter which might starve the engine of fuel but not plug the injector.
Is it like a hydraulic system where the filter is in the return line only meant to take out fine abrasive particles? That would explain it. Larges chunks of the lamination would go to the injector before it gets filtered out.


----------



## sqkcrk

The Mechanic explained to methat the damage to the injectors was being starved of fuel. Not from stuff getting thru the extractor.

Why does the inside of a steel tank which contains deisel fuel need to be coated or have a liner in it at all, since the deisel would keep it oil coated, wouldn't it?

Is there basically a bag inside my tank? Or is it coated? Is there a difference between a lining and a liner, when it comes to fuel tanks.

I am here, where is Acebird? At home? Yer missing a good meeting. 100+ Attendees. Good hallway conversations. Good talks.

We need Officers and Trustees for the Board of Directors.


----------



## hpm08161947

So what was the most interesting Talk/WorkShop/Conversation that you have had so far? I did take a look at the Agenda at the ES website and was a bit surprised to see a workshop on SHB, guess they are getting everywhere.

So you have not run into ACEBIRD? Maybe he is conducting a workshop? I believe he is well read on many subjects.... just not too experienced.


----------



## sqkcrk

The SHB talk was by a person from Quebec, Canada. It came via Skype.

Thursday evenings' Board Mtng was interesting, at times. 

Some of the stuff State Apiculturalist Paul Cappy reported on was interesting. Especially the use of Lemon Juice in sugar syrup feed knocking down Nosema counts.

MaryAnn Fraziers' talk about Pesticides was well presented and informative, though sorta long and depressing. Much of what I heard last year at Alfred State.

Lunch Buffet was good and half of the attendees ate there. Good conversations w/ some new acquaintances. Some new ideas, such as having the mtng on Saturday and Sunday so folks don't have to take time off from work.

I was asking how deo we get 10% of a Local Bee Club to join and attend eshpa. Anybody have an idea or two?

More later.


----------



## wildbranch2007

sqkcrk said:


> Why does the inside of a steel tank which contains deisel fuel need to be coated or have a liner in it at all, since the deisel would keep it oil coated, wouldn't it?


my 1997 dodge had a plastic(?) and my chevy also has the same type hard plastic fuel tank. from what I have read neither of those manufacturers are haveing a problem with there tanks.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> I am here, where is Acebird? At home?


Nope. I am in Troy, NY finishing up my brothers kitchen. I can think of one reason to line a diesel tank, moisture. No ethanol in the fuel to get the water out. Water makes the tank rust because it will separate the fuel and get at the steel. There might also be some acids to worry about.
So putting a sensor in the injector line to sense vacuum would be bad for the parts business?

Hey Mark, you're a director ... Why would I want to join the ESHPA? It was my impression the organization favors down state-rs and commercial interest. You can tell us what we all missed. Did you learn something new?



> I did take a look at the Agenda at the ES website and was a bit surprised to see a workshop on SHB, guess they are getting everywhere.


I don't need to run a workshop, I know they are up here. How do you think that happens? I know how I got mine and they didn't come from Canada.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Hey Mark, you're a director ... Why would I want to join the ESHPA? It was my impression the organization favors down state-rs and commercial interest. You can tell us what we all missed. Did you learn something new?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't need to run a workshop, I know they are up here. How do you think that happens? I know how I got mine and they didn't come from Canada.


I can understand how you might have that impression, but it is incorrect. The purpose of the organization is to represent the interests and concerns of ALL Beekeepers of NY State and we can't do that fully if we don't have participants like you and others like you. No matter what interactions or confrontations, however you or I may wish to illustrate them, we, you and I, may have or have had on beesource.com, your voice is welcome in ESHPA. I don't know what a downstater is, I am as far North as it gets. Small scale, sideliner and commercial interests are represented.

Shoot, the Summer 2010 Picnic had Sam Comfort as a Guest Speaker. To me you don't get any more sideline/alternative than Sam. He was my suggestion.

Summer 2012 we will have the World Reknowned Dr. Jim Tew as our Guest Speaker, at Kutik Honey Companys' Palatine Bridge (?) Extracting Facility, in the Mohawk Valley. Date: July 21st.

Fall 2012 we will have beesources own Michael Bush. Possibily Dr. Tom Rinderer and some of his compatriots. Nov. 16th and 17th. Though we may have the mtng on Saturday and Sunday to accomodate those who work and have to take vacation or sick leave to attend mtngs on fridays.

Keep your eye on eshpa.org for more improvements to our website. More linksa nd ways to get info and support and interactions.

Look forward to an initiative headed by Pat Bono and Peter Borst titled "Train the Trainers" designed to help educate beekeepers on diseases and pests of honeybees. This program is still in its' infancy, though funding has been acquired. Development is underway.

I would like to hear what folks who don't attend eshpa mtngs would like our statewide organization to do, to be, how it can be a benefit to the beekeepers of NY State and beyond. All ideas are welcome. All beekeepers are welcome. You don't even have to be a NYS resident.

David Hackenberg and Maryann Frazier are here and they live in PA.


----------



## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> All beekeepers are welcome. You don't even have to be a NYS resident.
> 
> David Hackenberg and Maryann Frazier are here and they live in PA.


On the ESHPA website I saw a picture of Don Hopkins looking at some hives.... referred to him as a guy who walked in off the street. Don is our NC State Bee Inspector.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> All ideas are welcome. All beekeepers are welcome.


Holy cow, seriously, I have a hard time believing that, but you got a xxxx of a sales pitch. I am looking through my wallet now for that wrinkled 20. I don't mind throwing away a 20 but it has got to make sense to me. Meeting Michael Bush will be well worth a 20. Amen.

Who is Don Hopkins?


----------



## hpm08161947

Acebird said:


> Who is Don Hopkins?


He is our State Bee Inspector- here in the state of NC. A very fine Bee Man.

Ace... you can learn more in 2 days there than you can learn in 2 years on your own.


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Hey Mark, you're a director ...
> 
> I don't need to run a workshop, I know they are up here. How do you think that happens? I know how I got mine and they didn't come from Canada.


Not anymorer Ace. Second Vice President.

You don't give or listen to lectures to hear what you already know. Though you might hear stuff you already know. You go to learn what others know, what they and you mighyt have in common, or how they are handling something. Sometimes History.

I mostly enjoy conversations out in the hall or at the Bar/Lounge.

We had a real nice Banquet. Had a good Silent Auction and Non-Silent Auction. I got some turned candle sticks and a clock made of Cherry wood, made by Fred Ludwig. I got a Hacxkenberg Ball Cap. Everyone had a good time.

Found out today that a new tank will cost $1200.00.


----------



## beeware10

mark---I have some ideas on how to increase membership. will run them by you in the morning.


----------



## Roland

SQKCRK - your explanation of the injector failure is logical. The tank delaminated, releasing particles, which where collected by a properly functioning fuel filter. It stopped the particles, and then blocked the flow of diesel to the injectors. The injectors, if like the others I have disassembled, have extreemely tight tolerances, and are machined to a mirror finish. The clearance is very tight(nearly molecular), and the only lubrication, and cooling, is the diesel fuel. If there is not enough fuel, the two pieces of metal touch, and the surface is ruined. Often there are no rings to seal with, only the very tight clearances make the seal. 

DO you change you fuel filter every oil change?

Bummer Dude, on the new tank cost. My diesel fuel tank is raw steel(I welded on it), and it is from 1982. Can you remove the liner with heat? 

Crazy Roland


----------



## sqkcrk

I don't know Roland. Is there some way of cleaning the tank of what is loose in there now? And then change filters regularly? Is inspecting fuel filters standard operating procedure at Ford Dealership Shops? Or do most just change and chuck w/out looking at them? I wonder how far I can get before the filter clogs again. Not that I'm using that tank.


----------



## Acebird

hpm08161947 said:


> Ace... you can learn more in 2 days there than you can learn in 2 years on your own.


That is what I like to hear.

1200, you get the feeling they got you by the short hairs.

I am thinking along Roland's idea of removing the liner although I was thinking chemically not with heat. I would be concerned that the same thing will happen to the other tank also. I think I would be strapping on an oil tank somewhere and sacrifice the space before I would drop 1200 towards a factory fit one.


----------



## jim lyon

I am going to guess you have one of those 6. Uh oh's. I was told by a Ford mechanic recently that they are a pretty good engine but cannot tolerate bad fuel at all. Any issues with water or sometimes even fuel gelling can ruin injectors. I don't need to tell you how expensive those are.


----------



## Roland

SQKCRK wrote:

Is inspecting fuel filters standard operating procedure at Ford Dealership Shops? 

Can't say, don't work at a Ford dealer. Ask the one who is good at conjecture.

Can we get a clue at what material the liner is? 

OK, so I have to admit that "Mr Conjecture" has a good line of thought. Do you have room for a generic fuel tank? The step van industry is like the early IBM clone days, alot of stuff interchanges, and is available for older models. Google "Mill Auto Supply". I saw generic looking tanks in their catalog. Big truck tanks are aluminum(have welded on those too), so you should have a few choices. 

Did you ask for your old parts back? If this is a known problem, most injectors are rebuildable(I do mine), and are usually about half the price of new. 

Look for a truck parts store that is not a dealer. They are usually better than the dealer at doing things inexpensively. The dealer just wants to sell you Ford parts, not solve the problem. 

Crazy Roland


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> I think I would be strapping on an oil tank somewhere and sacrifice the space before I would drop 1200 towards a factory fit one.


I can't afford to give up that kind of space. Were the new Fords more tried and true, I would consider using that $1200.00 as a down payment on a new truck.

I hear what you are saying Ace, but that doesn't fit my program.

Maybe I can find a different tank from a different supplier, which will fit the space.

Well, I got home. Sleepin' in my own bed tonight.

We had a well attended mtng w/ good speakers. The General Business Mtng got almost as contencious as the Board Mtng a cpl of times. But, we survived and now have some work ahead of ourselves as a Board and an Association.

For me the best part of the mtng, and the icying on the cake, was "Beekeeping in New York City" by Liane Newton and Jim Fischer. I found myself smiling throughout most of Lianes' part of their presentation, and not because it was funny. Heartwarming and positive and uplifting. Jims' part was quite interesting and informative. He got off of and away from NYC for the second half of his part of the talk. But it was good.

I was really glad they were willing and made the effort.

The final session I attended was a Q&A w/ some of the presenters, which was good too. But, unless there is something which needs clarification or some question someone might ask the panel, of which they did not speak of, Q&A can get quiet.

After it was all over, 6 of us went to the Lunch Yard and ate Chinese Food. Turns out Liane speaks Mandarin. Which was kinda neat when she conversed w/ the waitresses.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Were the new Fords more tried and true, I would consider using that $1200.00 as a down payment on a new truck.


1200 not going to cover the sales tax.

In the mean time I would be adding a screen filter ahead of the regular filter to catch the delaminations. There might even be one in the tank but I don't know how easy it would be to get to it to check it every tank full. Do they have check engine lights on diesels? Seems like that would have come on before the engine started to sputter.


----------



## sqkcrk

There is such a light. It never came on. I often think gauges are for show. I have run this engine w/ a severe oil leak and the gauge never indicated low oil pressure.

I helped Johny Mac get his North Country bees loaded and he took the last of my honey down to his place today too. Hope to get something started w/ the truck tomorrow. As well as the tire on the trailer which keeps leaking down. And the trailer lights. Time to get the Bobcat in for a Service too.


----------



## Acebird

When you turn the key it should light. That tells you the bulb is good. If it lights and doesn't work when it should then it is the device that is sensing what ever. Large commercial trucks do not come under the states EPA restrictions so the check engine light is totally ignored during inspections. That is good that you don't get hog tied by the state but you should want your check engine light operable for problems like these. I am sure that is why Ford can wash their hands of the problem. Not the greatest for PR though unless all the other manufacturers have similar problems.


----------



## sqkcrk

Got the tire changed on the trailer. Got the load off of the truck. Got the Bobcat loaded on the trailer so I can take it in for service. Leave the trailer at the garage for service, lights and a new tire or two. And then leave the truck at another garage for fuel tank work. My "fleet" of work vehicles and machinery will be strewn around the county.

If you ever need some mouse control, spread a puddle of honey on the floor of your unheated building. My building caught 6 field mice this past weekend.


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## wildbranch2007

if you look at the link that I posted about the delamination problem, if I remember correctly, there were two companies selling replacement tanks that don't delaminate.
my chevy tells you when to change the fuel filter, but does it by mileage not vacuum pressure. some people drill a hole and you can put a guagein the cab that will tell you what the pressure is and change when to high.


----------



## sqkcrk

Thanks Mike.


----------



## sqkcrk

wildbranch2007 said:


> there appear to be after market fuel tanks that don't have the problem.


Mike,
Where does one find one of those? I couldn't find reference to such in the linked material.


----------



## wildbranch2007

I sent you a pm with the info and links, look at the last line of pm, they say there replacement
tanks fix the delaminating problem but only replaces rear tank. if you don't get the pm let me know I'm having pc problems. good luck


----------



## Acebird

Mark, isn’t this an old flat bed truck? I can’t see spending more on the tanks then what the truck is worth. Wouldn’t two of these work under the bed on each side?

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_22091_22091?cm_mmc=Aggregates-_-SMARTER-_-Hydraulics>Tanks + Reservoirs-_-40519


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## sqkcrk

Your link doesn't show in workable form. My truck is a 2005. It has had a flatbed on it from the beginning. I wouldn't call it OLD. I have tool boxes under the bed outside the frame. I have a factory installed second tank which holds 15 gallon. The standard tank, also inside the frame, is in the rear behind the axle and holds 35 gallons.


----------



## Acebird

Never mind, 2005 is not old at all. I would not jerry rig it either. I am not sure why I can't get the link in the right syntax.


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## hpm08161947

Ace's Link



http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_22091_22091?cm_mmc=Aggregates-_-SMARTER-_-Hydraulics%3ETanks%20+%20Reservoirs-_-40519


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## sqkcrk

Maybe I could hang a cpl of those on my head board above my cab. The only problem would be getting fuel into them.

I have a friend who built an aluminum tank for a friend of his. It held so much fuel that Buster didn't need to buy fuel on the road traveling just under 1,000 miles.


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## wildbranch2007

talked to a guy today, has a 2010 f450, he said the fuel tank is now made of plastic, I would check and see if they would fit in your truck. I don't imagine they change that often.


----------



## sqkcrk

Got the truck, trailer, and Bobcat back from their shops. I guess that's my Xmas present to myself.

Got myself down to Sauquoit and extracting starts tomorrow.


----------



## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> Got myself down to Sauquoit and extracting starts tomorrow.


Must be a well heated facility! Is it primarily a contract extracting plant? Or just an operation that you have an arrangement with?


----------



## sqkcrk

A mentor/mentee relationship. Jon is one of my oldest bee friends here in New York. Or, maybe I should have said longest. Anyway, we help each other and work for each other when we can.

My arrangement is to get the honey here and when it fits into Jons' schedule we get it extracted.

We had a full crew today. Jon and Rich and I. And then around 9:30 or 10:00, Brian Cardinal aka Acebird showed up for a tour and to give a hand. I guess I can't be so hard on him anymore, since he seems like such a nice guy in person. He and Jon had a good time chatting about stuff. Having him there for a cpl of hours helped get honey spun. Rich and Brian left at noon and Jon and Nate kept at the extracting while I took a lunch break. 6 or 7 pallets left to go. will be filling some buckets in the morning.


----------



## Solomon Parker

I'm a nice guy in person too......


----------



## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> And then around 9:30 or 10:00, Brian Cardinal aka Acebird showed up for a tour and to give a hand. I guess I can't be so hard on him anymore, since he seems like such a nice guy in person.


Well Dang! Doesn't really surprise me though... he has such a nice dog in his profile picture.. so he has bound to have some good points


----------



## sqkcrk

Yeah, right. I can really believe that. Sheesh.


----------



## Acebird

Well thanks again Mark. I really appreciated seeing a real operation in the works. Jon was a pleasure to talk to and he showed me some memorabilia up in the rafters that I wished I knew more about. I knew right off the bat that it was going to be a good experience when Jon started breaking your stones the instant I walked in the door.

Do you have Jon's phone number? I would like to see if I can help him out with that drive on the second extractor. It made some noises that has me concerned if he continues to use it the way it is.

Did you ever think about using a swarm trap to collect all the bees in the honey house? I didn't expect to see so many on the 10 of December when it is 29 degrees outside. Maybe we could use that net I am working on so Rich didn't have to swat at them with the hive tool.

Thanks again, I had fun.


----------



## sqkcrk

Jon says you are welcome any time.

Swarm trap? Inside, especially in the Hot Room, what works best besides ignoring them is a vacuum cleaner.

While uncapping some of the last frames of the day I saw that one has aluminum foundation. That frame and comb is older than I am by probably 10 years or more. I'm 58 for another month. Jon seems to think that aluminum foundation was discontinued because of WW2.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Jon seems to think that aluminum foundation was discontinued because of WW2.


Holy cow, I wished I had saw that. Apparently covered in wax and honey aluminum is not an issue in the north. It sure would be easy to dip in wax for thin coating. Was it embossed?


----------



## sqkcrk

Embossed? Yes.


Jon tried to kill me today. From 4:30AM to 6:30PM. Filled 31 buckets and extracted 4 barrels of honey.


----------



## Acebird

LOL I could see Jon was about to gear up so I got out while the getten was good.

Maybe there was more honey than bees in those last pallets of boxes. Whatcha do sleep in the hot room to get up that early?


----------



## sqkcrk

We have 36 deeps and a pallet of Jons' odds and ends. A little extra help would be nice. Will finish extracting tomorrow and then get loaded for home.


----------



## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> Jon tried to kill me today. From 4:30AM to 6:30PM. Filled 31 buckets and extracted 4 barrels of honey.


Our 2 man setup could not come anywhere close to that production in 14 hours. I believe that is the same as 75 buckets. He must have a pretty nice setup for extracting.


----------



## sqkcrk

It works. Had combs been full we would have made 5 barrels. Would probably stopped earlier because the tank would have been full.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> A little extra help would be nice.


With deeps? I would like to oblige but a couple of hours with the shallows is about all my back could stand.
Jon has a great set up. Two great big extractors with an uncapping station in between. You load one while the other one is spinning. All the run off goes into a common vessel where the honey is pumped to another vessel that I didn't see.
In one of my off to the side conversations with Jon he told me a contractor mess him up when he replaced a boiler because he use to melt the wax while he was extraction and now he doesn't have enough steam. I wished I knew Jon last year because I had a boiler I could have sold him cheap just to melt the wax and he would be back in business with that operation.


----------



## sqkcrk

Ready to go home. 96 buckets w/ about 2 barrels still in the tank. Which makes about the same as my first extracting, 120 buckets. So, 240 buckets from about 500 colonies. Maybe next year will be better.


----------



## sqkcrk

Got a lot of honey sold the last two days. Put about 250 or so miles on the van.

Goty an interesting piece of mail today from the USDA. It's a report on findings in my outfit from the National Honey Bee Survey/Funded by USDA/APHIS
Honey Bee Diagnostic Report.

The diagnosis showed signs of IAPV, Isreali Acute Paralysis Virus and DWV, Deformed Wing Virus, and BQCV, Black Queen Cell Virus. There were no signs of CBVP, Chronic Bee Paralysis Virus or ABPV, Acute Bee Paralysis Virus or SBPV, Slow Bee Paralysis Virus.

There was no sign of Apis cerana or Nosema apis.

As far as mites are concerned. No sign of Tropilaelaps clarae were found. and no tracheal mite either. Apis capensis was not detected.

Varroa mite count was 146 mites in a sample of 1322 bees for an average of 11.0 mites per 100 bees. "Varroa mites detrected at more than 3-10 mites/100 bees are thought to cause damage and colonies exceeding this threshold should be treated to reduce mite loads ASAP."

I guess this information is interesting, though not timely. Since my bees were treated a long time ago, months. The samples were taken in August and received days after being taken. It's too bad it takes 4.5 months to get the results back. But that was not the point of the Survey. The point was to gather info of what is out there so certain countries could be excluded from importing bees to the U.S. because they have some of the things being looked for.

That no detectable presence of Nosema was found is suspicious to me, since samples taken at a different time showed Nosema present. Not necassarily from the same yd. The yard which the USDA Survey was done is identified by GPS quardinants. (However you spell that word.) So I don't know which yd that is. Not that it matters since those hives are no longer there and I don't know which hives are which.

I guess other than the varroa and the viruses, my bees are pretty healthy. I guess I need to sample for varroa myself some time before spring and treat before going North in April.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> The diagnosis showed signs of IAPV, Isreali Acute Paralysis Virus and DWV, Deformed Wing Virus, and BQCV, Black Queen Cell Virus. There were no signs of CBVP, Chronic Bee Paralysis Virus or ABPV, Acute Bee Paralysis Virus or SBPV, Slow Bee Paralysis Virus.


This sounds pretty bad so how do you conclude they are healthy?


----------



## sqkcrk

Well, it's relative. Compared to things one can do something about, such as Nosema, which they appear not to have, they are healthy. Compared to...

Well, maybe they aren't all that healthy. But, on the bright side, they aren't dead. Not yet.

Also, I don't see any necassary course of action other than attempting to keep the varroa count down below 3/100. Which should help w/ the viruses, I think.


----------



## hpm08161947

Are you considering that Oxalic Drip.....? Chuck K. seemed rather enthusiastic about it, when I was talking to him the other week. I'm thinking about using it... maybe some warm week in Jan. Don't believe it would be too labor intensive if I use one of those pump sprayers.

Snow on the ground up there?


----------



## sqkcrk

Yes, considering it. I gave my sprayers away though. Would have to get some more.

Yes, we have a little snow, It just arrived last night. You still warm?


----------



## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> Yes, we have a little snow, It just arrived last night. You still warm?


Very warm... upper 70's. Cool front coming through now. Probably 58-60 for the next week. Bees still feeding on Henbit (tiny little weed with blue flower).


----------



## sqkcrk

The start of another beekeeping season.

Met Barry last night, just South of Baltimore, MD. WE had a nice visit. Delivered his Foundation Mill to him.

Got here to SC this afternoon. Got unloaded and got the syrup tanks on the truck. Didn't get here early enuf to check any hives. Checked in to the Motel and had some BBQ. Going for syrup tomorrow.

Does anyone know where the fuel filter is on an F-450 SuperDuty Diesel. I can't seem to find it. Am afraid "Water In Fuel" is going to cause problems. One thing or another as it seems.


----------



## hpm08161947

I see you brought the winter with you. Coldest day and night so far this year. I doubt this helps to much but this is supposed to be a video of changing the fuel filter on a F450... just not your model...



> video on how I changed the fuel filter on my 2008 Ford F450 King Ranch diesel truck. This same video should help anyone with an F250, F350, or F450 that are in the range of 2008, 2009, or 2010. I can't speak for the 2011 Super Duty - they may have changed how they put the filters in. This video is for the 6.4 liter super duty diesel truck


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkvBdwkkCGI


----------



## sqkcrk

Thanks. I figgered somebody would know where to look.


----------



## Barry

Hey Mark, glad you made it to SC in one piece. I sure enjoyed our short visit. Hope we can do it again and not have to end it because the restaurant closed for the night. Thanks again for your help in getting the mill.


----------



## sqkcrk

You are welcome.


----------



## snl

Hey Mark.......
Thanks for bringing the cold weather............NOT! Hey, where do you get your syrup and how much do you pay? Do you get it from Chuck?

Larry


----------



## sqkcrk

Yes, I do.


----------



## Roland

SQKCRK - Go to NAPA or equivalent and buy a spare filter. After you look all over your truck to find something that looks just like it(follow the fuel line), put it in a plastic bag, and stow it in the truck. Next time the engine hiccups, change the fuel filter FIRST.

Crazy Roland


----------



## sqkcrk

It's awfully hard to find fuel lines. But I'll try. Keep the old filter? Why wouldn't I just carry a new one? Or better yet, let NAPA keep it for me?


----------



## Roland

Carry the new one with you, in a clean plastic bag. It is the first thing you do when the engine acts up. Mechanical things make noise. If you have engine problems, and there is no "Knock knock knock, I want to come out", change the fuel filter. 

Crazy Roland


----------



## Scrapfe

sqkcrk said:


> It's awfully hard to find fuel lines...


Better yet, if you're careful about where you buy your diesel fuel you'll cut out 90% of your water and clogged (waxed up) fuel filter problems. Let me know if you want the full advise, and I will PM you.


----------



## sqkcrk

Yes, I would like to know how to deal w/ this. I have crawled under this rig from rear to front and don't see anything like what is in that video. The filter on top of the engine requires a special wrench, it looks like to me.

Be careful about where I buy fuel? Now why didn't I think of that? When you are on the road, how do you tell a good place from a bad place? I have never had this problem before and I have bought fuel before from all the places I bought fuel from on the way down here. I am convinced that this water came from the Top Cat Truck Stop and convenience store in Shrewsbury, PA on Rt. 83, Exit 8.

I filled both tanks there and as soon as I got on the road in front of the place the dash read "Water In Fuel". That was after running the engine for about 5 minutes. Seems like circumstantial evidence, but strong circumstanial evidence.


----------



## beeware10

mark my ford truck is a lot older and different size engine but the fuel filter is above the engine. on the bottom of my filter there is a thumb wheel to open that drains water out. better off to get to a garage as it would be a lot cheaper than a break down on the road. you can relate to that. good luck


----------



## BMAC

Did u find ur filter? its top center of engine. you have two styles to those junk screw caps. one has a square indentation in the middle. 3/4 I
nch drive fits it like a glove. the other style has fins on it. i found and old ford 4 by 4 hub socket fits nice in those fins. but hey if its just wter you have a little plastic tab on bottom left of the fuel filter bowl. push it toward passemger fender while truck is running. his opens bottom of ur bowl and will purge the water


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> I filled both tanks there and as soon as I got on the road in front of the place the dash read "Water In Fuel". That was after running the engine for about 5 minutes. Seems like circumstantial evidence, but strong circumstanial evidence.


Not for nothing, are you using this truck as a commuter vehicle? Did you replace the tanks from the last problem that you had? Sensors and idiot lights make assumptions that are not always correct. Is it water or is it the lining of the tank? How much fuel does it take you to get to SC.?


----------



## BMAC

In his truck dang close to 100 gallons.


----------



## sqkcrk

Commuter vehicle? It's a work truck. I haul equipment, a trailer w/ a Bobcat on it and me in the cab. It gets me to work. I don't know what you are asking.

The problem tank was replaced. When I had tank lining problems there was no "Water In Fuel" message on the dsash board.

How much fuel? Let me think. Onehundredtwentyfive gallons more or less. I have a large tank which holds 40something and a smaller tank which holds 15 gallons. I topped off the tanks when I went thru Canton, NY. Filled up the front tank in Barneveld. Filled up both tanks in Shrewsbury,Pa. Filled up again in Kenly,NC at Truckstop Rd, Exit 106.


----------



## Acebird

I'd be grabbing somebodies oil tank that converted over to gas for no other reason than knowing a reliable source until the factory tanks were proven clear of delamination. Mark isn't moving hives now.


----------



## sqkcrk

Huh? Talk straight please.


----------



## Roland

SQKCRK - ignore him. 

Do find the drain on the filter, and drain per instructions in posts above? Do you change your filter every oil change?

Crazy Roland


----------



## sqkcrk

I'll get the mechanic, at the Ford Dealership, to show me how to do that tomorrow.
The fuel filters were changed last November when the tank problems arose. I haven't driven the truck all that much since. Fuel filters are changed per owners manual recommendations.


----------



## BMAC

Mark you have to let us know how ur bees are doing. im on my way back now as i finished at dark yesterday. i had to put a third deep on about 80 percent of mine yesterday after i fed em syrup. i can hardly wait to get back there n split in a month


----------



## sqkcrk

Low dieback BMAC? Or what? 20%?

I'm getting the truck tended to and then going for syrup. Then getting into hives. Or, if I can't get in the shop this morning I'll get into some hives this morning. I will report ASAP.


----------



## bluegrass

Did you find your fuel filters? One is right on the engine and the other is on the frame rail on the drivers side. The one on the frame rail should be the water separator and has a drain on the bottom of it. 

I haven't had an F series in awhile but there is some sort of procedure with the key that has to be preformed to re-prime the fuel system... May be that is in the owners manual. Otherwise the truck will not start.


----------



## BMAC

sqkcrk said:


> Low dieback BMAC? Or what? 20%?
> 
> I'm getting the truck tended to and then going for syrup. Then getting into hives. Or, if I can't get in the shop this morning I'll get into some hives this morning. I will report ASAP.


i had around thirty percent but most of those did it in ny. so when i checked on them i had maybe ten more that didnt make it. not too bad. just finishing bfast in columbia right now. i reckon it time to get off this n get nack on the highway. my wife needs to get back to work.


----------



## Roland

Bluegrass - Do they not have a priming plunger like a Mack? Bummer dude if they do not.


SQKCRK - letting it sit may be worse, chance for condensation to get in the tank, and not get flushed out with use. Who often do they want you to change them? On a Mack, 10K miles is normal.

Crazy Roland


----------



## bluegrass

Roland said:


> Bluegrass - Do they not have a priming plunger like a Mack? Bummer dude if they do not.
> 
> Crazy Roland


My last one was an 03 and it had to be primed by turning the key on and off for a sequence of 5 or 6... I don't really remember other than that I thought it was the stupidest thing. No hand pump like on a real truck.

They have all kinds of engine variations now so there is really know telling what is going to need to be done to achieve prime... I think they try and make it as complicated as possible so you get the service done at the dealership.


----------



## Acebird

bluegrass said:


> it had to be primed by turning the key on and off for a sequence of 5 or 6


That sounds pretty simple to me. You don't even have to get out of the cab.


----------



## bluegrass

Acebird said:


> That sounds pretty simple to me. You don't even have to get out of the cab.


I guess it is if you can remember it exactly without having to get out the service manual every time... My car's service engine soon light stays on all the time, because I service it myself and can't ever remember how to reset it without looking it up. It is like a Christmas tree, every light stays on.


----------



## sqkcrk

Spent a good part of the morning at the Dealership today. Good thing I had a book to read.

After sampling the fuel, no water was found. The tech showed me the part of the fuel pump where water is supposesd to be drained from. It takes a large allen wrench. He checked that and found gunk, dirt, rust and a little bit of water. He took some parts apart and clean and reassembled the pump parts. Since the fuel filter has less than 4,000 miles on it, he didn't recommend changing it.

Since this morning, no fuel problems. Got both tanks filleed and haven't had a "Water In Fuel" indication since.

But, I have another interesting problem. When sitting still, even w/ the engine off, the Speedometer reads 25 mph. When I was driving thru Andrews, I was going 75 in a 35mph zone, w/ cars passing me. How does that happen?


----------



## Roland

Turn off the NOS, your rear tires are spinning?

Crazy Roland


----------



## sqkcrk

What?


----------



## snl

sqkcrk said:


> I was going 75 in a 35mph zone, w/ cars passing me. How does that happen?


Is that what you told the cop who pulled you over for speeding??


----------



## beeware10

not sure about your model but the electric speedometer is tied into the computer. on mine there is a sensor in the rear end that talks to the computer. this is also tied into the cruise control. It could be a number of things but that sensor on mine was like 15 dollars. a electrical plug to undo and it screws out. yours may be a lot different as its a lot newer than mine. how do the bees look? good luck


----------



## sqkcrk

Only got thru 4 or 5 pallets. Some looked really populous. Frames of brood, pollen and a little new honey. Filled feeders. I hope to go thru all the hives and fill feeders twice before heading north.


----------



## Acebird

Acebird said:


> Sensors and idiot lights make assumptions that are not always correct.


This is where the customer can get screwed because he/she is dependant on the monkey to do things right. The customer pays for the monkey's mistakes because the customer can't prove what the monkey did wrong. Unfortunately the only thing you can do is take it back to the dealership and turn somewhat anal when they give you the run around. The speedometer and the fuel problem message could be related.


----------



## bluegrass

You can't trust a dealer, that is for sure. I have known some good ones, but our current one will stick it to you any chance they get.
Our Honda Civic's check Engine light came on at 100,000 miles. I put a code scanner on it and it is throwing a catalytic converter code. I took it to the dealer and they said they needed to replace the catalytic converter. I know what a car with a bad catalyst feels like and this one runs and drives just like it always did, no decrease in power or fuel mileage. 

As it turns out the car was due for a state emissions inspection right around when the light came on so I took it in and its Cat passed with flying colors. I took it back to the dealer and presented them with the emission report and their story changed to a computer program issue that would be $300.00 to update.... As long as I know why the light is one I ignore it. That light stays on too...


----------



## Acebird

bluegrass said:


> As long as I know why the light is one I ignore it.


You can't do that in NY on a pleasure vehicle. It is known as the "you just got screwed light". Registration will not pass if the light comes on. Any attempt to defeat the light can just add to the costs. It is nearly impossible to find a super duty truck up here because commercial vehicles do not fall under this trap.
The light is essentially an error code light for what ever the computer picks up that is generally associated with some emission control. It is all low voltage sensing so any service to a vehicle, even oil changes can move wires and hoses that upset circuits and vacuum lines.
About all you can do today is get on your knees and pray when you bring your vehicle in for service.
Mark, I avoid dealerships like the plague. Find somebody local either SC or NY that you can build a relationship with. The only other option is buy new or lease. To me that is too expensive.


----------



## bluegrass

Ace.

Yeah they will not pass it in CT either if the check engine light is on... I reset the Computer before taking it in.... it has to cycle three times before the light comes back on... in about 400 miles.

So when they put the code scanner on there is no code being thrown.... And then it is completely down to the sniffer to check the cat and it passes beautifully.


----------



## Acebird

Super! How do you find out how to reset the computer? I am surprised that is not coded as well.


----------



## bluegrass

Acebird said:


> Super! How do you find out how to reset the computer? I am surprised that is not coded as well.


In a Honda it doesn't have memory so if you disconnect the Neg cable from the battery for a few minutes it forgets that it was throwing a code.

If that doesn't work on whatever your vehicle is; leave it disconnected over the weekend or something to give it time for the secondary battery to die. It will reset it.


----------



## cg3

Check Engine light has been on in my F-150 for 9 or 10 years. I put a piece of tape over it. In Ohio, re-registration is by mail. Disconnecting the battery will clear it for a while.


----------



## Solomon Parker

Or you could just find out what's wrong. :banana:


----------



## Acebird

Solomon Parker said:


> Or you could just find out what's wrong. :banana:


That could end up costing you 5-600 dollars while the dealership has your vehicle hostage.


----------



## BMAC

sometimes those computers throw codes when there is nothing wrong. My mechanic buddy from High School generally replaces 5 computers a year due to check engine light coming on and the Ignorant state of NY failing it due to that on the inspection. Sometimes technology is a wonderful thing, and somtimes it is a horrible thing.


----------



## Acebird

BMAC said:


> Sometimes technology is a wonderful thing, and somtimes it is a horrible thing.


It is not the technology. It is the bureaucracy that supports the rich getting richer on the backs of the poor. Technology would be plugging the computer into your cell phone and telling the customer what is wrong with the care before you take it in. A manual could tell you where the sensors are so you could check for loose connections. But that would hurt the rich now wouldn't it?


----------



## Solomon Parker

Acebird said:


> That could end up costing you 5-600 dollars while the dealership has your vehicle hostage.


I thought you avoided dealerships.

If that's what it costs, you're doing it wrong. A code reader can be had for less than $200.

Personally, I find neglect of maintenance not to be a commendable thing.

Also, politics in Tailgater please.


----------



## Acebird

Solomon Parker said:


> I find neglect of maintenance not to be a commendable thing.


I don't clasify chasing idiot lights as maintenance.

Can we inspect your house?


----------



## Solomon Parker

Why and for what?


----------



## bluegrass

Dealerships are not always avoidable... Especially if you buy a new vehicle... it takes a couple of years for generic part manufacturer's to start production for new model years... 

My Civic is an 05 and the first two years we owned it we had to have the oil changed at the dealer because it was dealer exclusive. Atopart stores could not get the 0W20 that it takes. 

I know what is wrong with my check engine light, it needs a software update, and that is only done through a dealer. Basically when I first took the car to them they were going to do the software update and charge me for a catalytic converter. Only after I researched it and showed them the physical evidence that there was nothing wrong with the Catalytic converter did they agree I just needed a software update... Which I refuse to pay for when it is the difference of a light being on or 300.00 out of my pocket... I will keep the light.

They also lost the sale of a new car out of the deal. We went with a New Hyundai instead of another Civic because of their dishonesty.


----------



## cg3

I don't do dealerships, either. I had it checked out, nothing substantial wrong. My work truck strategy is- buy a beater for cash, work it to death, replace.


----------



## Solomon Parker

We only go to the dealership for insured repairs or detailing. Never for oil changes and I never buy a plan for such. I'm an Amsoil user. Change the oil once a year or 25,000 miles. Flawless performance. Our 05 Corolla has had a grand total of eight oil changes and has 165,000 miles. Motorcycle every 8,000, truck every year, lawnmower every two years. I've never known anything to make any air cooled small engine work better than synthetic oil. I rotate my own tires and do all other maintenance myself. I could not be happier with the service I get or the price. 

Now if I can get this creeper to stay away from my house...:waiting:


----------



## BMAC

bluegrass said:


> I know what is wrong with my check engine light, it needs a software update, and that is only done through a dealer. Basically when I first took the car to them they were going to do the software update and charge me for a catalytic converter. Only after I researched it and showed them the physical evidence that there was nothing wrong with the Catalytic converter did they agree I just needed a software update... Which I refuse to pay for when it is the difference of a light being on or 300.00 out of my pocket... I will keep the light.


Why dont you look for a computer at a bone yard? It doesn't really make much sense your computer needs a software update less they started changing the emission parts. Which if they do that I think it also changes the plug configuration. I wouldn't pay a dealer for a computer update on a computer that should never need an update. 

Now I would pay for a computer program and chip for my diesel truck to make it more powerful after putting in better turbo and injectors.


----------



## bluegrass

All of the Civic Hybrid computers have needed software updates. Mine received two under recall, one for a transmission shifting issue and another for the battery system. This one for the catalytic converter hasn't been placed on recall yet. I don't buy electrical parts from scrapped out cars as a rule... that is a fast way to throw money out the window. And the light doesn't bother me.


----------



## Scrapfe

Some if not most "Check Engine" light messages are caused by a loose gas cap or other failure of the gas tank to pass a vaccuum check at start up. This is a function of the emissions system, and it is a good way for your (not so honest) neighborhood shop to send his kids to Harvard.


----------



## Acebird

It covers anything that would affect emissions, vacuum sensors, catalytic converter, oxygen sensor. Sometimes they don't know what it is and just replace all the vacuum hoses which you could do for under $50.

I trust a small guy that has to make his living on his reputation before I would trust the big guy that I know is going to lie to you right off the bat. He makes up his losses with advertisement.


----------



## sqkcrk

Got thru 88 hives today. Eight dead. Rotated supers and filled feeders. Got stuck in one yard where the landowner disced his field closer to the hives then I thought he was planning to do. Actually his adult son was the one doing the discing last fall. I guess he wanted one more row of peanuts. Oh well.

I didn't get into the hives to really see how many frames of brood there are. There are plenty of bees in most of the hives.

Speedometer fixed itself, somehow. Maybe it didn't want to go back to the shop again. 

Did y'all hear the article on Bees on NPR. Brown's Bees from South Dakota, Almonds in CA and shrinking availability of summer yds in SD because of corn prices making ag land set aside not so attractive.


----------



## Solomon Parker

I heard that. The times, they are a changin'.


----------



## snl

Mark,
What hive configuration are you running? You state you rotated supers........you have honey supers on your hives?


----------



## sqkcrk

They came down as double deeps or a deep and a medium, some singles, and some nucs. Four to a pallet.


----------



## snl

So when you're rotating, you're moving the brood nest down?


----------



## Roland

TO explain my post way back, SQKCRK said his speedo read high, I said shut off the Nireous oxide(power booster), like in the movie Fast and Furious. In my 63 beetle, when the turbos(compounded diesel) hit 37 PSI, the front wheels(with the speedo cable) come off the ground, and the speedo stays at the speed when the tires lifted. It was plausable humor. Sorry for the confusion.

Crazy Roland


----------



## sqkcrk

snl said:


> So when you're rotating, you're moving the brood nest down?


Yes. And in hives w/ plenty of bees in both boxes I am adding another deep.


----------



## bluegrass

It is okay Roland
Some of us got the humor


----------



## wildbranch2007

Nitrous oxide, commonly known as laughing gas 

now I understand some of the post and posters better:thumbsup:


----------



## BMAC

sqkcrk said:


> Got thru 88 hives today. Eight dead. Rotated supers and filled feeders. Got stuck in one yard where the landowner disced his field closer to the hives then I thought he was planning to do. Actually his adult son was the one doing the discing last fall. I guess he wanted one more row of peanuts. Oh well.


Good to hear about your bees. How are they brooding up? 
Don't you have a posi rearend in your F450? Mine does along with 5.13 gears. I can drive thru plowed fields pulling my skidsteer the entire way with no issue in Ga. Well so long as its not a muddy plowed field. If its dry its no problem.


----------



## sqkcrk

I haven't pulled very many frames, so I don't really know. But those which I have looked at have brood. Drones even.

Posi rear end? Sure. Fourwheel drive got me out.


----------



## BMAC

yeah I see drones in mine as well. I always leave a gap in my colonies so they will build drone comb (part of my IPM) and many of mine I checked had that gap filled with capped drones. After I make my splits all the capped drones get yanked and pitched in the ditch as my IPM for mites.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Posi rear end? Sure. Fourwheel drive got me out.


Wet grass and wet soil and a truck can be useless even if it is four wheel drive. I can't tell you how many times I have to get the old tractor to pull the truck out. I've even buried the tractor a few times pulling stumps. It is not so easy getting the tractor out when it gets buried.


----------



## sqkcrk

Got thru the last of my hives today. Last Fall I brought 500 colonies South. Sixty of those are dead. Twelve percent die back. Not bad. I'll take it. Now I need to decide what to bring w/ me the next trip. Which is only 3 weeks away.

Strong hives w/ a good amount of brood and decent weight.


----------



## hpm08161947

12% dieback... that sounds special! Wish I had the same. See ya tomorrow morning....


----------



## snl

sqkcrk said:


> Now I need to decide what to bring w/ me the next trip. Which is only 3 weeks away.


Does that not depend on how many you're going to split????


----------



## sqkcrk

How many I split depends on how much equipment I have and availability of cells and/or queens.


----------



## hpm08161947

Mark has just finished a large plate of collards and was polite enough to sample my homemade norton wine. This was after a day of helping me feed hives and visit a blue berry farm. Tomorrow morning we will give him a large plate of grits at our church breakfast before heading him North.


----------



## beeware10

what no bbq?? tell him to stay there. its snowing right now up here. we will bee down for the nc meeting then making splits in sc.


----------



## jim lyon

You notice he feeds the bees before he feeds Mark?


----------



## sqkcrk

Good one Jim. Actually we stopped at the Mexican Restaurant for lunch. I had an Pork Enchilada, ensalada y soft drink and Herb had a Burrito w/ hot sauce and salad.

Will it still be snowing tuesday?


----------



## beeware10

tue is to be 42 degrees so your in good shape. dont break your truck


----------



## snl

Mark....
Make sure you stop in Balto for those crabcakes............you'll really be missing something if you do not........


----------



## sqkcrk

I guess I'll have to put that on my vacation "To Do" list. I gotta get home and get work done. The way things are looking I'm gonna need more nuc boxes w/ comb and/or foundation, covers, excluders, deep supers and more. Going back to SC for my trailer and Bobcat so I can get to my equipment in the show and more easily load it on my truck.

Who has the best price on plastic frames wax coated? Dadant? Mann Lake? Brushy Mountain? BM is closer to where I stay in SC, but I've never dealt w/ them.


----------



## BMAC

i have a bunch that are drawn i will sell you this fall.


----------



## beyondthesidewalks

I imagine the best price will be where you can stop by and pick them up in your travels, avoiding the shipping costs. Guess that would make Brushy or a local Dadant along your trek your best bet if they have them in stock. I used to work for a company that had a big office in Quincy, IL, right down the road from Hamilton. I used to try to make a side trip whenever I had to go there and pick up supplies. I used to check one empty suitcase and would bring it back full of goods.


----------



## Mbeck

I bought direct from Pierco and was happy with the price and quality.
They shipped freight and it was cheaper than picking up.


----------



## hpm08161947

I think Mark enjoyed our small Congregations big Church breakfast this morning. The congregants were certainly happy to have a visitor. After Church and Marks departure.. some of the ladies commented to me about Mark's lovely singing voice.... Yup... Mark can sing hymns too... a man of many talents....


----------



## Solomon Parker

What a surprise to see Santa Claus in church!


----------



## snl

When Mark comes back to SC, I'm going to invite him to one of our local dances and we'll check out his dancing talents as well !


----------



## sqkcrk

What kind of dancing do y'all do? Ballroom? Contra? Square? Gavot or Minuet?

I went back for my Bobcat and hit the road. I am currently in stony Creek, VA for the night. When I hit the VA State Line rain turned to snow and traffic bogged down to 30 to 40 mph. I was lucky to get a room. Everybody else had the same idea.

Herb,
They could hear me? I didn't know I was singing that loudly. I did enjoy my time in your little Church. Pretty much a family Church, isn't it. Carlene is related to almost everyone there.

I've never been to a Church which ate first. The Church I attend has a tradition of coffee hour after the service. It was nice Herb. Very homey. Herb's Carlene sent me home w/ some provisions and her Sister gave me a bag of BBQ and another bag of Boiled Peanuts. Something she thought I might not have had before, but I have been eating them for decades.

Do Yankees really try to put sugar on grits? I never heard that before, but Carlene and others asked me if I wasn't going to do that, so it must be so.

Solomon,
Santa got sheared. Conway,SC is not only the home of my favorite Truck Garage but also my favorite Barber.


----------



## BMAC

My oldest son likes maple syrup on everything including grits. Personally I like a little cheddar cheese on mine. It was kind of gloomy looking last night. almost like it wants to snow so you better head back! Speaking of food in a couple more hours I am going to start up my smoker and smoke up some ribs, steaks, beans and corn. It will be KC style BBQ tonight.


----------



## snl

sqkcrk said:


> What kind of dancing do y'all do? Ballroom? Contra? Square? Gavot or Minuet?


Mark, Mark! He's our man, if he can't do, nobody CAN!!!! :applause:


----------



## hpm08161947

Mark.. too bad you did not hang around for Sunday School... you could have heard Carlene explain why she says her prayers at night  seems it "Keeps the Buggers away"  - or so she said. 

It really made the small congregation happy that you were there... I was surprised what a nice effect it had on them.... one lady even said "Do you think he will come back"... all I could say was... "Well maybe... I think he enjoyed the breakfast".

It's also fun that most of them think that just because you live North of Virginia that you are a "Yankee" and therefore want sugar on your grits. Deep rural southerners are so proud of their grits and collards . They forget that many have rather diverse backgrounds.


----------



## sqkcrk

Herb, I know South Carolinians who don't care to go to North Carolina because it's going North. So, I don't mind being called a Yankee. As long as it is said in a loving way. I do go home.

Just got home about an hour ago.


----------



## bluegrass

Sugar on our Grits? I haven't ever heard that one, but I do like mine cooked with eggs cracked in them and served with salt and butter.

One of my Ancestors paid Mason/Dixon to survey that line. Our family doesn't understand why it has become the North/South divide... considering it only extends to about 20 miles short of the WV border. 

Legally the 36th parallel is the border of north and south as enacted by Congress in the Missouri Compromise. But people in Kentucky and Virginia don't like to be told that they were border states and are not in the south. 

The British coined the term "Yankee" and according to them we are all Yanks no matter where we live in the country... 

Personally I think it is high time we get over it and start teaching our kids that we are 0ne Nation, Under God, Indivisible.....Again.


----------



## snl

sqkcrk said:


> What kind of dancing do y'all do? Ballroom? Contra? Square? Gavot or Minuet?


In the Carolinas ...............it's the SHAG!!!!


----------



## sqkcrk

bluegrass said:


> The British coined the term "Yankee" and according to them we are all Yanks no matter where we live in the country...


Seems like I heard that "Yankee" was an Indian term or pronunciation of the French word for "English" Angle' or something like that.

I grew up in Maryland, the State just below the Mason/Dixon Line, but that wasn't far enough south to be considered Southern by most Southerners. Seems like the Powtomack(the original spelling) River is the real geographical deliniation. But, it is probably mostly a State of mind in those who live where Seccesion occured.


----------



## sqkcrk

snl said:


> In the Carolinas ...............it's the SHAG!!!!


Never tried shagging.


----------



## sqkcrk

Gotta get some honey thru the tanks and get the syrup and pump off of the truck.

Looking forward to my Wife's 60th Birthday, even if she isn't. Our Son comes home this weekend from CapeCod, now that Hockey Season is finished for him. It will be nice to see him for a cpl of weeks. Our Daughter is coming up from PA to attend a Memorial Service, so we will have 2/3 of our children home for Birthday Celebrations.

Lots of nuc orders coming in.


----------



## Barry

If people want to get off into all kinds of other topics, I suggest someone start their own blog and let everyone know it's location. This thread has become to "chatty" blog-like.


----------



## bluegrass

sqkcrk said:


> Seems like I heard that "Yankee" was an Indian term or pronunciation of the French word for "English" Angle' or something like that.


The earliest written documentation of the word was in a letter by Lord Horatio Nelson, and considering he was not involved in any North American campaigns I think it is unlikely it was an Indian word.

Some historians say that it is derived from a Dutch word and was used to refer to the Dutch who first settled "New Amsterdam" (New York).


----------



## sqkcrk

Get that from your OED? Very interesting. Sounds more plausible. My memory isn't all it should be. What did Nelson write?


----------



## sqkcrk

Barry said:


> If people want to get off into all kinds of other topics, I suggest someone start their own blog and let everyone know it's location. This thread has become to "chatty" blog-like.


Okay, sorry.


----------



## bluegrass

Barry

The thread is titled "What's New". So what exactly is the topic we are supposed to be staying on? If I wanted to search the topic of this thread, what should a put in the search box?


----------



## Barry

1st question: beekeeping. 2nd question: I'd start with "dance", "church", "Yankee", etc. Get my point?


----------



## sqkcrk

Yes, it's "What's New" w/ my beekeeping, what's going on w/ my bees or me, as a beekeeper. Maybe I was getting too personal there, concerning my personal life and not so much my beekeeping.

How would a person set up a Blog? Maybe I should ask Solomon how he set up his. I dropped my website.


----------



## bluegrass

Maybe he is referring to the blog feature on beesource at the top of the page?


----------



## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> My memory isn't all it should be. What did Nelson write?


I think he was just an Admiral... a heck of an Admiral, but no writings that I know of.... Trafalgar... Napoleonic wars... that part of history.


----------



## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> How would a person set up a Blog? Maybe I should ask Solomon how he set up his. I dropped my website.


Pretty sure there are several free ones out there. As far as I can see... the Blog feature on Beesource does not look like a Blog.... more like a place to have certain articles published... I believe Solomon uses "Blog" one of the free features of Google....

Here is an example of an old Blog that I made as a "Personal Blog" several years ago: http://hpmcintyre.blogspot.com/
It was made from Googles Blogger... I never advertised it... just used it for the experience. Might be a nice one to look into. Yours would get far more traffic.... I read Solomons too.


----------



## sqkcrk

Had a nice bee club meeting this evening w/ about 15 in attendance. Newbees, oldbees and wannabees. Plans for future Workshops were made. We're slowly getting off or butts and onto our feet.


----------



## bluegrass

15 Wow... I think we had around 250 at our January meeting.  Sometimes smaller is better.


----------



## sqkcrk

It's very rural here and we are just barely starting. I had to drive 25 miles to get there.


----------



## bluegrass

I like the community of a smaller group, you actually get to know each other. Ours is so large that you rarely see the same people from meeting to meeting.


----------



## Seymore

Maybe y'all mean a forum, not a blog??? Forums are conversational, blogs are typically written by a single author to which "comments" are added.


----------



## Solomon Parker

hpm08161947 said:


> I believe Solomon uses "Blog" one of the free features of Google....


Free is usually a good price. It has pretty good features. I use it more for personal record keeping than anything else. How to articles and other more permanent writings go on the website. Got two more pages up last night. Only a handful to go and it will be fully operational!

New blog post too.


----------



## sqkcrk

Finished getting 200 colonies up to NC for blueberry pollination. I sure wish some nectar would start coming in. The drought continues.

It was a good thing having Steve w/ me today. We came across a snapping turtle. Sunday dinner.


----------



## hpm08161947

Snapping turtle...? Wow.. you really are going Southern! I know someone with a fine Turtle and Barley soup recipe....


----------



## sqkcrk

W/ collards and sweet potatoes on the side?


----------



## hpm08161947

I am advised that collards and sweet potatoes pair well with most dishes...........


----------



## beemandan

sqkcrk said:


> I sure wish some nectar would start coming in.


I know it sounds weird but it seems like the pollen producing flowers have been fooled into blooming early but the nectar producing flowers haven't. Most of my hives already have frames full of pollen, loads and loads of bees and not a stitch of honey. I usually have a few hives that need a little extra in late winter...which is where we would ordinarily be....but right now its all I can do to keep them all from starving.


----------



## Roland

I realize it is entirely off topic to discuss bees in this thread , but we had slop(nectar flow) off Soft Maple bloom near Woodland, Wisconsin today, and saw a swarm cell near Helenville, Wisconsin.

Crazy Roland


----------



## beemandan

Roland said:


> I realize it is entirely off topic to discuss bees in this thread


What is the topic of this thread?
Our maples rarely make enough nectar to produce any slop. And while it isn't unusual to see some swam cells in mid March, it is unusual to see it in the majority of hives...and I am. And...if they swarmed today,without exception, those bees leaving the hive will go with empty stomachs.


----------



## hpm08161947

beemandan said:


> I know it sounds weird but it seems like the pollen producing flowers have been fooled into blooming early but the nectar producing flowers haven't. .


Yea it is weird and I think that is exactly what we are seeing here. I am guessing that the very low precip. of the last year is contributing to the "No Nectar" situation.


----------



## sqkcrk

The "Topic" of this Thread is what is going on w/ my bees and such. What I and my bees are up to.

I may have to take Herb up on his offer to use his syrup pump. BK, here in SC, says he has seen some nectar coming in yesterday. Hopefully that's the start of the flow. I'm planning on starting out the week by equalizing brood and honey frames in hives not in blueberries and then thursday and friday going thru the blueberry bees equalizing them and maybe making some nucs. Cells are hard to come by right now.


----------



## hpm08161947

The "Queen Man" (oxymoron?) - says he will have queens and cells ready 4/1... assuming the big bee man does not use them all.... and he feels that is not possible. So I decided to gamble.... and placed my order.


----------



## sqkcrk

Checked hives in Blueberries yesterday. They could hardly look much better, Guess I picked the right ones to take. Don't have to feed any. Moved some brood and moved some weak ones to catch field force from stronger colonies. Will probably be moving some out next week. Petal fall in many of the plots.

Hopefully cool weather up in NY will hold back the bloom a while longer. Really don't want to go North in the middle of April. Though it would be nice to get home.


----------



## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Petal fall in many of the plots.


Magnolia blooms have been destroyed. We have our fingers crossed on our ornamental pear tree and strawberries. Today it is pouring with warmer temperatures but tomorrow is another freezing night. I hear the wineries are sweating big time. Fluctuating temperatures are devastating for plant life and maybe for the bees. I haven't seen a bee in about three days.

Will the blooms survive the snaps and what will that mean for the bees?


----------



## hpm08161947

Magnolia blooms in Utica? I had no idea it would grow hat far north... or maybe that is a local name for some type of Rhododendron?


----------



## cg3

In the north, there's a different tree they call magnolia. It's deciduous, I think a type of poplar


----------



## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> Magnolia blooms have been destroyed.



You have a magnolia tree in your yard? How many years does it have flowers on it?


----------



## Acebird

It is not in my yard it is in a neighbors yard. My wife now tells me it could be a tulip tree.
It has to be 20 years old or better.


----------



## hpm08161947

Tulip Poplar.... probably... it is in the Magnolia family...


----------



## Acebird

I will try to remember to take a picture of it tomorrow but it doesn't look like the poplar you mentioned. When in bloom it has beautiful reddish purple flowers before it has leaves. branches go down to the ground and then bend at a sharp angle back up toward the sky.


----------



## sqkcrk

The difference between between Bladen County,NC and Horry County, SC is more than just the 100 miles distance between, it's the amount of honey in the hives. There is a lot of honey here and just enough in the hives in the blueberries. If they hadn't gone to the blueberries w/ plenty of honey they'd be hungry for sure.

Also, w/ warmth and a nectar flow here working a cpl hives w/out a veil was possible this afternoon making splits to use a cpl of queens.

When Herb and I had our lunch at La Tienda, corner of 701 and 210, we met Barry Heinz. He had some queens which I'm glad I ncould get from him. They came in handy in the blueberrys.


----------



## hpm08161947

I believe his name was actuallly "Berry Hines"... which is a good, which is a good name for a pollinator...


----------



## cg3

The Magnolia in the north isn't Tulip Poplar, which we also have. I don't know the specifics but it's normally a specimin tree planted in peoples' front yards. It blooms really early. In Ohio it usually blooms and then is caught in a frost and the petals rain down like black moosh.(technical term)


----------



## Acebird

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/MagnoiliaTree.jpg

This is the tree in question.


----------



## hpm08161947

I have no idea... not a Southern Magnolia though. People's yards seem to have so many non-native plants.


----------



## cg3

Yep. That's the one. Big pink flowers similar looking to a southern Magnolia. Bees don't seem to use it. Mine made it all the way through this year. Everything is blooming 3-4 weeks ahead of last year.


----------



## hpm08161947

There was much nectar being shook out, while setting up for splits out in the Blueberries. I would not think Mark's blueberrie farm could be too far behind. The bees were definitely out working... rather pleasant... but lonely.


----------



## sqkcrk

Lots of nectar shaking out today. Especially this afternoon. Came home w/ wet boot tops.


----------



## Acebird

I have to ask, why would you shake the nectar out. Isn't that a waste?


----------



## hpm08161947

I shake the frames in order to get the bees off. This way I am more certain that I am not transferring a queen into my new split.


----------



## sqkcrk

When we talk about nectar shaking out, it's something we notice when shaking bees off of combs while making splits/raising brood frames above an excluder. We aren't shaking all of the nectar from the combs, just a little while actually doing something else.

Gotta go move those splits I made yesterday. C ya.


----------



## Acebird

So if you shake the frames over the hive the nectar really doesn't get wasted. The bees will just lap it up again and deposit it in the cells.


----------



## hpm08161947

That is correct. Very little gets wasted - if any. The combs are pretty much full of brood anyway.


----------



## sqkcrk

Cool and rainy in NY. Worked all day getting the first of 5 loads of bees to the orchards. 200 mile round trip. Nexttrip tomorrow morning. Apples are in tight pink. Hopefully temps won't be freezing, but snow is called for in the next cpl days.


----------



## Lauri

I heard on the news some ugly weather coming your way..Yikes! Hope everyone effected comes through OK.


----------



## hpm08161947

Hope those orchards don't tend to get muddy. At least you have 4 wheel drive to fall back on. Still beats moving bees in the night.... I bet.


----------



## sqkcrk

Used the FWD yesterday. Always glad I have it. Yes, Lauri, ugly weather is here and maybe becoming uglier. Will use it to my advantage. Gotta go, daylights a wastin'.


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## Acebird

The good thing about forcast up here is that the weatherman is only 50% right. They are pretty good at telling you what is going to happen when the weather gets here but not to good on telling you when and if it will come.


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## John C

_Finally_ getting a decent rainfall here. It's been a couple of months.. or at least seems that way..


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## sqkcrk

Acebird said:


> The good thing about forcast up here is that the weatherman is only 50% right. They are pretty good at telling you what is going to happen when the weather gets here but not to good on telling you when and if it will come.


When will people understand it's a PREDICTION, not a promise. When the Forecaster says there is a 60% chance of rain, it means that 60% of the time, under the current conditions it has rained somewhere in the covered area.

No rain today, but cold enuf I should have worn long Johns. There was an inch and a half of snow on top of the fuel pumps at Ganienkha Reservation up the mountain above Plattsburgh.


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## hpm08161947

Were they getting their smoker pots out.... over in the Orchard?


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## Barry

As in smudge pots?


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## sqkcrk

They don't run smoke pots in the orchards I pollinate. But they had been running their wind machines last night.

Right Barry. That's what he meant. They used to burn tires. I'm pretty sure the Dept. of Environmental Conservation has put a stop to that practice in NY.

Barry, when did you become a Wizard? Is that a Super Moderator?


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## Michael Palmer

sqkcrk said:


> There was an inch and a half of snow on top of the fuel pumps at Ganienkha Reservation up the mountain above Plattsburgh.


On the turnpike, Mark? Pickin' up yer Indian cigarettes?
My Ellenburg bees must be covered.


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## hpm08161947

All kind of news tonight about big snow storms in Western NY.... it's not gonna make it up to the North Country... is it?


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## sqkcrk

Michael Palmer said:


> On the turnpike, Mark? Pickin' up yer Indian cigarettes?
> My Ellenburg bees must be covered.


Roads were clear, though fog was really heavy. No, Mike, fuel. $4.08/gallon diesel. The snow was on top of the pumps and along the road sides.


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> When will people understand it's a PREDICTION, not a promise.


Well it is actually neither. They don't promise but they do say it is going to happen or this and that will happen until it doesn't. Our local station differentiates between localized weather as to spotty showers but not a major storm. I have never seen a forecast today where they are not 100% confident unless they say they are not. It is unlikely that Utica, NY will get much of anything but Buffalo and north will get hammered. Of course Peter Jennings and his crew will be in polar jackets giving us plenty of video. Promises come from the Indians after a rain dance. Not much of that anymore.

The NOAH site says 100% chance of rainfall for our area tonight. The government doesn't make promises do they? We need the rain but it is better when it doesn't come all at once.


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## sqkcrk

Did you get that snow you were "promised"? We did here.


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## max2

"BM's Honey Harvester "

this is going back a while what is a "BM's Honey Harvester " - would love to know.Thanks


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## sqkcrk

wrong Thread max


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## max2

See post no 13 on this thread. This is the place I got it from.


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## sqkcrk

You are really digging back into the past there.

Google it. It's probably something like BeeGo, used to remove honey from hives w/ fume boards.


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## hpm08161947

Is there too much to move bees into the orchards? Of course.. up your way they already have the roads plowed. Down here we just have to wait for it melt..


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## Acebird

sqkcrk said:


> Did you get that snow you were "promised"? We did here.


We weren't promised any. We got the rain that they said we would get. And it is like the trees leafed out overnight. Unbelievable how fast that can happen without sunshine. The grass is leaping out of the ground and it will be a week before I can get a blade near it. Well, my backup is the flail mowers. They will go through anything.


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## wildbranch2007

six inches of that nice heavy snow, bushes bent over and trees brakeing and I have a batch of queen cells in that require me to go in to two hives or lose them. Since the temp isn't going to get high enough to not kill the brood, I guesss I'll just have to let them go and start over. Since moveing to N.Y. I'm oh for 14 trying to make queens in April:shhhh:


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## Michael Palmer

wildbranch2007 said:


> Since moveing to N.Y. I'm oh for 14 trying to make queens in April:shhhh:


That should tell you something, eh?


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## Barry Digman

1.23" of rain ..... this year. Looks like at least another year of drought.


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## Acebird

wildbranch2007 said:


> Since moveing to N.Y. I'm oh for 14 trying to make queens in April:shhhh:


How could such a seasoned beekeeper make such a mistake?

It will be gone next week. It is just poor mans fertilizer.


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## wildbranch2007

Acebird said:


> How could such a seasoned beekeeper make such a mistake?


As they say in gardening, if you don't lose some crops early and late, you weren't trying. 

as michael palmer said "That should tell you something, eh? " I know but I keep thinking every year is different. When I first started raising queens(in conn. they said don't start until May 1, I eventually got it back to early April, some times. and that was b/4 global warming


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## Michael Palmer

I'm starting my cell building a little early this year, too...by 4 days. Setting up the first cell builders on May 5. First graft on the 15, first cells on the 25, first queens on the 10th of June.


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## sqkcrk

A man in tune w/ Nature.


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## BeeCurious

wildbranch2007 said:


> When I first started raising queens(in conn. they said don't start until May 1, I eventually got it back to early April, some times.


Mentioning Connecticut, I have a hive that I believe swarmed around April 15th or 16th... I did some modest broodnest opening of hives and removed two queens from hives with sealed swarm cells. An additional three frames with sealed q-cells were moved to nucs or queen castle. Some bees/queens might return to their original hives but for now, I potentially have five nucs started from seven hives.

I'm just finishing up a home-built version of a Queen Castle to avoid using five frame nuc equipment when it's not necessary.


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## sqkcrk

Over a week ago I heard of swarm cells in the Finger Lakes here in NY.


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## Roland

We saw a queen cell in early March that would have hatched before the end of the month. Swarm in March???

Crazy Roland


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## BMAC

so this colder weather isnt helping much. im planning to set my strters and finishers up saturday with my first graft going in sunday.


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## Acebird

Michael Palmer said:


> I'm starting my cell building a little early this year, too...by 4 days. Setting up the first cell builders on May 5. First graft on the 15, first cells on the 25, first queens on the 10th of June.


Syracuse and Utica is a bit different than a stone throw from the Canadian border in Vermont. It might have some similarities to Brasher Falls, NY.


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## wildbranch2007

I had a large hive on 3/3/12 that the queen had become a droan layer, killed the queen, went into another hive and got a frame of eggs and lava and put in the hive. went back early this month and nothing laying but was to late in the after noon to shake it out. last saturday went to shake it out and the new queen is laying a fine pattern, they won't do much this year but it was worth a shot. does seem strange but the weather was alot nicer then than know.


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## hpm08161947

The bears are out moving down here. As I found out to today when I discovered a hive parially consumed out int the Gallberry yard. I knew that was bear land... but thought I had till early may before the young males got out and started rambling around. So I got to spend the day building a bear fence.... takes a pretty good one when they have had a taste. Guess if he gets back in I will have to leave the Gallberry land. Hope they aren't rambling down on the Pee Dee.


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## beeware10

herb
putting bacon on the wires helps but you probably knew that. we went thru bears two yrs ago. makes it hard to sleep. good luck


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## sqkcrk

Me too.

Had a nice bee mtng this evening. About 15 people showed up. Just general beekeeping discussion.

I still have one more orchard to get bees to, when he wants them. And then I can get on the road to SC to retrieve my nucs.


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## sqkcrk

Finally got the last hives into the orchards. Now I can run to SC on Monday to get my nucs and to load a friends semi. Just a quick 5 day trip, I hope.


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## Acebird

How much milage do you claim in a year?


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## hpm08161947

sqkcrk said:


> Now I can run to SC on Monday to get my nucs and to load a friends semi. Just a quick 5 day trip, I hope.


Are all your nucs "committed"? If not and you would like to sell a few more let me know... A guy that bought from me last year wants about 15 nucs of the CK Queen type.... told him I was out of the Nuc biz.. but would check... now I have..


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## sqkcrk

No extra nucs. Don't know how many are good anyway.


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## BeeCurious

Put sticky boards back in place on most hives. It's going to get chilly and windy.


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## Lauri

Reposted on another thread


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