# Please Help Me Determine If I can Legally Beekeep



## duari91 (Nov 19, 2017)

Hey Everyone!

I've posted once before on this forum, but it's been a few years and i'd like to revisit this topic to see if anyone can help me, because I'm lost:

Is beekeeping legal in my city?

I am in Fountain Valley, CA which is also in Orange County CA. I've emailed the local bee clubs but haven't gotten a response. I have found ordinances for my city and county, and wasn't able to find anything under beekeeping.

Here are the ordinances:
http://qcode.us/codes/fountainvalley/?view=desktop
https://library.municode.com/ca/orange_county/codes/code_of_ordinances

Is anyone else able to find citation of beekeeping withing these ordinances? 

Thanks a bunch!


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

https://ucanr.edu/sites/MGOC/files/306116.pdf

looks like you cant


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## duari91 (Nov 19, 2017)

The issue I have with that site is that it doesn't show what ordinance or cite any law that would prohibit it.

Fountain Valley ordinance doesn't mention anything about beekeeping, so I am confused as to how it would not be legal?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

You were given some pretty good advice in your earlier posts as to how to find out for sure. Did you speak to any of these groups? If calling the City might raise a red flag, the OCBA will certainly be able to help.

https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?341499-Need-Help-from-Fountain-Valley-CA


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

call your zoneing Dept and see what they say?



> 21.30.040 Keeping of animals and fowl.
> The purpose of this section is to ensure that the raising, keeping and maintenance of animals would not create an adverse impact on surrounding properties by reason of negative impacts (e.g., bright lights, dust, fumes, insect infestations, noise, odor or visual blight) by providing standards for maintaining the animals. Animal keeping uses shall comply with the requirements of this section and other applicable provisions of this code.
> 
> (1) Regulations. The keeping or maintaining of livestock, fowl or other animals of any kind shall not be allowed in any subdivision except as provided below.
> ...


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Animal includes, but is not limited to, birds, fishes, reptiles and nonhuman mammals.

From the above links I do not see a prohibition.

From MSL link; Please contact the city in which you live for more information. I would try to contact the email listed on MSL and ask the basis of "No".


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## duari91 (Nov 19, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> You were given some pretty good advice in your earlier posts as to how to find out for sure. Did you speak to any of these groups? If calling the City might raise a red flag, the OCBA will certainly be able to help.
> 
> https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?341499-Need-Help-from-Fountain-Valley-CA


I've attempted to contact my local BK clubs, but to no luck. I think my next course of action might be to call the city hall to confirm for 100%.

In theory I'm pretty sure I could put a small hive in my backyard and no one would ever find out. Just not sure if it would be ethical but it could be done.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Yeah, that was my advice from 3 years ago. Don't ask, don't tell. But bees are livestock and there is a clear prohibition against livestock or other animals of any kind.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Go to definitions. An animal is defined, an insect is_* not*_ an animal.


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## bushpilot (May 14, 2017)

duari91 said:


> I've attempted to contact my local BK clubs, but to no luck. I think my next course of action might be to call the city hall to confirm for 100%.
> 
> In theory I'm pretty sure I could put a small hive in my backyard and no one would ever find out. Just not sure if it would be ethical but it could be done.


I see no ethical issue, unless you lie about it. Then there might be an ethical issue.

Legal, well everything is fine until caught.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Saltybee said:


> an insect is_* not*_ an animal.


I would respectfully disagree. Insects are members of the animal kingdom. Although, it is a good point to try and argue when the code enforcement officer knocks on your door.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

JWPalmer said:


> I would respectfully disagree. Insects are members of the animal kingdom. Although, it is a good point to try and argue when the code enforcement officer knocks on your door.


"Animal includes, but is not limited to, birds, fishes, reptiles and nonhuman mammals." That line is a quote from definitions. You will get no argument from me if you say poorly written. With those limitations I could not argue the reference is to the entire kingdom of animals. I would argue you could keep amphibians.

To write the equivalent of your reading; Animals, does not include humans.


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## forrestmohrman (Apr 27, 2015)

I do not see why as it is an agriculture thing.

Bud


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## Plannerwgp (May 18, 2019)

JW Palmer is correct. If you have any doubt call the community in which you live and ask. I am an urban planner and zoning expert and unless you are an expert don't try and interpret the ordinance. I alway advise client to call.


JWPalmer said:


> Yeah, that was my advice from 3 years ago. Don't ask, don't tell. But bees are livestock and there is a clear prohibition against livestock or other animals of any kind.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

Plannerwgp said:


> JW Palmer is correct. If you have any doubt call the community in which you live and ask. I am an urban planner and zoning expert and unless you are an expert don't try and interpret the ordinance. I alway advise client to call.


Certainly is the easiest and safest. 
May not be the best course for yourself. You will often get the clubhouse reading of the ordinance at City Hall, not the literal. With the detail that follows making specific reference to barking dogs it is very clear that the animal kingdom was not the intent of the definition but rather the common language of "animal". Do you really believe the intent of the ordinance is to prohibit earthworms ?


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I like the idea of setting a swarm trap and waiting for the bees to move in. Then ask the zoning folks (when they show up after someone complains) how that is any different than having birds in a birdhouse.


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## Murdock (Jun 16, 2013)

:thumbsup: You could even call it a birdhouse.


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## WaverlyBees (Jul 13, 2012)

As Andy told Aunt Bee: "Call the man, just call the man" In other words, call the city and ask. It doesn't matter how anyone else interprets the ordinances, the City's interpretation is the one that counts.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

No. It is the correct one that counts.

Let me tell you a little story; I was told I needed a building permit to remodel a bit, and as it was a change of use I would need to go before the Planning Board before I could get one. Planning and Codes both swore up and down that was the rules. When I pointed out another section that said no permit required for less than 400 sq ft, so no permit, no planning board. still told me no.
Turned out the Town attorney had already given the Codes and Planner a letter warning months before that it could be interpreted that no permit was required for a change of use without a footprint change. They did not offer to share that letter with me. I did the work without waiting for the planning board.

Town Hall went around complaining I found a loophole. Loophole, it was the regulation, with only the town attorney agreeing with me.

Just because you ask, does not mean you have to agree.


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## WaverlyBees (Jul 13, 2012)

Saltybee said:


> No. It is the correct one that counts.


That may well be true, but unless one is willing to take the city to court, the City's interpretation is considered the correct one. Even then, if the court finds that the City's ordinance is vague or doesn't prohibit, in this case bees, the City will simply pass an ordinance that specifically prohibits them if that was their original intent.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

No it is actually the author that has the burden. A reasonable interpretation, not a stretch of the words, is plenty of justification to proceed. This ordinance is so badly worded I would have no hesitation of placing a hive in a reasonable manner. As far as OK with the Landlord, another matter.


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

It could also be that the city never intended to prohibit keeping bees and it just fell under a broader interpretation of the ordinances. Again, only one way to find out.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I agree with _Saltybee_. The county I live in has a building code in effect. All kinds of rules, permits, inspections and, of course, fees. 

However, what they _*don't*_ tell you about at the Building Code office when you go there to discuss a building in the County is this little gem buried in the enabling legislation:



> ZONING RESOLUTION ADOPTED AUGUST 1984 UPDATED THROUGH DECEMBER, 2015902.
> Building Permit Required. It shall be unlawful to commence the excavation for or construction of any building including accessory buildings, or to commence the moving or alteration of any building, including accessory buildings, until the building commissioner has issued for such work a building permit including a statement that the plans, specifications and intended use of such building in all respects conform with the provision of this ordinance. Application for a building permit shall be made to the building commissioner. *However no building permit shall be required and there shall be no regulation of the erection, construction, or reconstruction of any building, or other structure on land now devoted to agriculture uses or which may hereafter be used for agriculture purposes. Nor shall this resolution be construed as limiting or affecting in any way or controlling the agriculture uses of land.*
> 
> https://www.greenecountytngov.com/w.../10/Greene County, TN.Zoning Res.Dec 2015.pdf


Of course, there are lots and lots of pages in the source document, way more than the snippet above, so I bet _few_ read the full code. 

Sooooo, if you are building a *barn* ...


If you are building a 'shop' (not a store, but an equipment repair structure), as long as you _say_ it is for a tractor it is "agriculture"! :thumbsup:


When the Tax Assessor came by after I built my "barn" he made a point of verbally noting that I had not taken out a permit. And I also made a point of telling him that none was needed under the rules. And then he left, _without_ even driving to the top of the hill where he could actually look at the barn. He did ask me the exterior dimensions, and that was all. 

.


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## WaverlyBees (Jul 13, 2012)

Salty, Don’t take my comments as me trying to argue with you, in fact I agree but the OP is asking everyone but the only folks who can actually answer the question and that is the city. If the OP doesn’t want to call them, then he should simply get his bees and let the chips fall where they may.


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## duari91 (Nov 19, 2017)

I think just to give an update on where I am going with all this:

All of you have been very helpful and gracious with the information you've given me thus far. I think I'm just going to setup one small hive and see what happens. I've inspected my backyard a couple of times from the outside, and I can't imagine that someone would find out that I have bees. I think the only concern would be with swarming bees, but I'll have to do my best to prevent that. Even so, it's not entirely uncommon to see natural beehives or swarming bees in my area. The only concern would be that someone would see the swarm and call someone to remove the bees.

Southern CA is a moderate climate and although I live in an urban area, there are flowers/plants/parks everywhere. When the spring bloom comes there are bees everywhere.

If someone somehow finds out and calls on me, worst case scenario I'll have to call someone to remove the bees. I don't think I'll get fines or anything like that. I'm not sure i'll care even if I get a fine.


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

WaverlyBees said:


> Salty, Don’t take my comments as me trying to argue with you, in fact I agree but the OP is asking everyone but the only folks who can actually answer the question and that is the city. If the OP doesn’t want to call them, then he should simply get his bees and let the chips fall where they may.


Dan, I never consider a different point of view given with the flexibility to consider another view to be an argument. That is called a discussion, remember those?


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## WaverlyBees (Jul 13, 2012)

Saltybee said:


> Dan, I never consider a different point of view given with the flexibility to consider another view to be an argument. That is called a discussion, remember those?


Discussion, hmmm, let me think a minute ........................ yeah, I do recall that term but it is only a slight glimmer in the back of my memory banks  I've enjoyed our discussion, Salty, and look forward to many more.


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## Plannerwgp (May 18, 2019)

This entire thread is a waste of time. You were offered excellent advice. I have spent my entire career as an expert in urban planning and zoning and have testified in many trial courts regarding zoning. Good Luck.If you don't care to follow the law or even call the city for an interpretation, then that is a personal choice that you can make in your own.


duari91 said:


> I think just to give an update on where I am going with all this:
> 
> All of you have been very helpful and gracious with the information you've given me thus far. I think I'm just going to setup one small hive and see what happens. I've inspected my backyard a couple of times from the outside, and I can't imagine that someone would find out that I have bees. I think the only concern would be with swarming bees, but I'll have to do my best to prevent that. Even so, it's not entirely uncommon to see natural beehives or swarming bees in my area. The only concern would be that someone would see the swarm and call someone to remove the bees.
> 
> ...


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## Saltybee (Feb 9, 2012)

I wish it were true that zoning was written so well that only one interpretation was possible. That one section did not conflict with another. Were that true you would not have been called as a witness as there would not have been a trial.
Wish it were true that all advice given by a municipality was correct and not influenced by a personal interpretation.
Here we have only a bee clubs brochure that says not allowed. Rather second hand.


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