# water in honey



## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

I don't consume honey from cutouts, you never know who may have sprayed them with what before you got there, just a precaution. Sounds like you have high moisture content in the honey/nectar anyways and there is no practical way to evaporate that much water, just feed it back to the bees. John


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## WilMorris (May 15, 2013)

I was in contact with the owner from the day the swarm made it's home. No chemicals here, I'm sure of it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Not worth the trouble. Dump it or feed it to the bees you took from the building.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

honey is the great chief's purest gift. any contamination at all ruins it. why consume garbage,,, you would not dream of eating yogurt with clean pure chicken fat in it would you?


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## WilMorris (May 15, 2013)

Are you saying feral bees make garbage honey?


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## Ben Franklin (May 3, 2011)

I would feed it back to your bees. And feral bees do not make garbage. I'm just about finished straining honey from a cut out. It will go into my cabinet for my family.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

WilMorris said:


> Are you saying feral bees make garbage honey?


It isn't honey.


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## WilMorris (May 15, 2013)

Gosh. What was I thinking? Thanks old farts for setting me straight.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Why did you Post this Thread? Did you already have your mind set? I guess if you insist on an answer to your question. Heat the nectar/honey to 100 degrees temperature and keep it there until you had reduced the moisture content to 18.5% or a little less. Aren't you smart enough to figure that out yourself? What do you think you will have once you have done so?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

> Is it OK to heat it on low to evaporate some H2O? 

If you mean heating on the stove that is probably not going to work well. A dehumidifier is a better tool, but only you can decide if you want to go to that effort for a relatively small amount of "honey". Here's a thread on that issue:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?245152-Honey-moisture

Note that feeding it back to the bees does not necessarily mean it is lost to you. The bees may put it back in comb and "dehumidify" it along with the rest of their nectar. Then you can harvest it later.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Spoiling the fun Rader.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Well, Mark, the OP is a fairly new member, joined this May, and I thought he asked a fairly innocuous question. It seemed to me that some of the responses he got were rather harsh.

IMHO there are other, more suitable targets if you want to have some fun.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> Not worth the trouble. Dump it or feed it to the bees you took from the building.


I'm sorry you didn't like the replies. Maybe you should be more specific next time you have a question.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Well, Mark, the OP is a fairly new member, joined this May, and I thought he asked a fairly innocuous question. It seemed to me that some of the responses he got were rather harsh.


I was giving my point of view. Was I being harsh by suggesting he dump it or feed it to the bees he took it from? I'm sure he wasn't calling me an old fart. He wouldn't be that disrespectful, would he?


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## The Honey Householder (Nov 14, 2008)

Really not nice to ask a question and when you don't get the answer your looking for you call names. Better read the rules of the form before you get kick off.:ws: 
Sorry I do have the right answer, but don't want to be call names. tortland nice town, but not always nice people.:digging:


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## WilMorris (May 15, 2013)

Sorry. I guess next time I have a question, I'll remember to Google it first.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

** *****


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

WilMorris, I think for someone to call unripe honey "garbage" was not the best choice of words, but I'm sure they didn't mean it to be taken literally. I've tasted unripe honey from my hives lots of times, and it tastes pretty darn good, but yes it is "runny" and not fully ripe, and when ripened it tastes even better. I have not had to remove or evaporate more than a couple percent of moisture from harvested honey ever, and I do it by blowing warm dry air over the combs for a time, maybe as much as a couple days. In your case, its already in jars, so getting the moisure reduced won't be as easy but I'm sure it can be done, maybe someone can give you an answer without being sarcastic about it. This is a great forum IMO, don't get the wrong idea that its not, plenty of people willing to give help here, just stay away from the name calling when you don't get the exact answer you were looking for, someone will eventually hit the nail on the head for you. John


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> I'm sorry you didn't like the replies. Maybe you should be more specific next time you have a question.


Mark , I think he was specific enough with his original post to get some better answers than what he got. John


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Look, I had no intention of insulting anyone and I am truly sorry if I hurt anyone's little feelings. 
I am not saying that wild honey is garbage, never even implied it. what I am saying is that honey containing water, nectar, fruit juice, or ANY other substance is not "honey as all the above ingredients will result in fermentation of the honey. If not below 18.5% moisture honey is not honey. it is something else. In Pennsylvania it is against the law to label such a product as honey. even if the processer evaporates the substance to 18.5% it is not honey. It clearly states that it must be done by the BEES! As one believes in calling a spade a spade I do not feel that any artificial manipulation of the product by the beekeeper, processer, or anyone else can possibly be honey, and in my Opinion is garbage, because it has been contaminated, and I would not eat it, any more that I would eat sugar water with imitation maple flavoring in it. even it were 50 to 90%real maple syrup. people eat out of the trash at McDonald's. and some have said it taste fine. but in My Opinion it is garbage. I guess we are all entitled to express our opinions as long as someone does not bother someone else. I do not care what anyone else says. honey is the great Chief's purest gift, it does not spoil, it does not ferment, it provides energy, and taste great. if the girls did not do it, it ain't right. 

If I am the old fart that is fine too, I will even allow wilmoris to have his opinion. and wish him luck in all his endeavors. I shall think of him kindly while he eats his home made honey and curses us who have a difference of opinion.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

According to USDA standards, here:
http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELDEV3011895

US Grade A honey can have up to 18.6% moisture.
US Grade B honey can have up to 18.6% moisture.
US Grade C honey can have up to 20.0% moisture.

Note that there are other factors besides moisture that affect honey grades, but all of the above are still legally defined as honey by the US Department of Agriculture.


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## honeybeebee (Jan 27, 2013)

Consume your free honey/nectar substance yourself...it can't be much worse than some imported store bought 'honey'... hope this answers your question....


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Tenbears, according to your last post, honey containing water will ferment and is not honey? I'm sure you didn't mean that. Anyway, you are also saying that anyone (in Pennsylvania or anywhere else I assume) who artificially removes any amount of moisture from their honey/nectar to get it down to 18.5% or less, and then extracts it, bottles it, and labels it as honey is being deceptive to the consumer in your mind, and in reality as far as you are concerned is garbage. You have created your own personal definition of what honey should be, and like you said, you are entitled to your opinion. I'm sure that you have insulted a good number of beekeepers with this philosopy of yours, but as you said, you don't care what they think or say. And as far as being "truly sorry for hurting anyone's little feelings", I don't get that impression at all, sorry if that offends you. John


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

It is not what I am saying. it is the law. Notice it says transformed BY and is the natural product OF the honey be. 

"HONEY SALE AND LABELING ACT
Act of Jul. 20, 1974, P.L. 537, No. 184 Cl. 31
AN ACT
Defining honey and regulating its sale and the labeling and sale
of imitations of honey; and providing penalties for violation.
The General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
hereby enacts as follows:
● Section 1. The terms "honey," "liquid or extracted honey" "strained honey" or "pure
honey" as used in this act, shall mean the nectar of flowers that has been transformed
by, and is the natural product of the honey-bee, taken from the honeycomb and
marketed in a liquid, candied or granulated condition.
● Section 2. (a) No person shall sell, keep for sale, expose or offer for sale, any article
or product in imitation or semblance of honey branded as "honey," "liquid or extracted
honey," "strained honey" or "pure honey" which is not pure Honey.
● (b) No person, firm, association, company or corporation, shall manufacture, sell,
expose or offer for sale, any compound or mixture branded or labeled as and for
honey which shall be made up of honey mixed with any other substance or ingredient.
● (c) Whenever honey is mixed with any other substance or ingredient and the
commodity is to be marketed, there shall be printed on the package containing
such compound or mixture a statement giving the ingredients of which it is made;
if honey is one of such ingredients it shall be so stated in the same size type as are
the other ingredients, but it shall not be sold, exposed for sale, or offered for sale
as honey; nor shall such compound or mixture be branded or labeled with the word
"honey" in any form other than as herein provided; nor shall any product in
semblance of honey, whether a mixture or not, be sold, exposed or offered for sale
as honey, or branded or labeled with the word "honey," unless such article is pure
honey.
● Section 3. Any person violating the provisions of this act shall be guilty of a summary
offense and on conviction thereof shall be punished as provided by the "Crimes Code"
● Section 4. Nothing in this act shall be interpreted as preempting, usurping or replacing
the jurisdiction or activities of the Federal Government in connection with the labeling
or mislabeling of honey or imitations thereof.

Honey is not Honey until it is capped. bees do not cap honey until it reaches 18.5% or less. so call it what you like adding nectar, dehydrating nectar and calling it honey according to the state of Pennsylvania is not honey. and cannot even be labeled honey, and sold. , It is not my philosophy although I do agree with it. allowing nectar into honey, and calling it honey is simply a way to extend the volume of the product and sell it as something that it is not. " Pure Honey. that would equate to gathering 100 gallons of 15% moisture honey and adding 3.5% water. are you proposing that that is an acceptable practice. I have not intended to insult anyone. if someone is so thin skinned as to take offence to someone who takes a purest attitude, then they need to find another planet to live on.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Tenbears, I'm fairly certain that it has been done, that is, adding water to low moisture content honey to bring it up to 18% so that it goes further, not something that I have ever thought of doing, but as the saying goes, money is the root of all evil, so yes its probably been done. 

Section 1 of the Pennsylvania honey law is totally correct, it's made by honey bees. YOU have added your own personal feelings to the rest of the law (going beyond what is written) based on your "purest attitude". The state of Pennsylvania always has been nit-pickers about most everything that goes on within their boundaries, JMO. John


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

The section quoted below clearly states that regardless of what PA law says, as long as you follow the USDA rules, you can market honey in Pennsylvania graded and labeled to USDA standards.


Tenbears said:


> ● Section 4. Nothing in this act shall be interpreted as preempting, usurping or replacing the jurisdiction or activities of the Federal Government in connection with the labeling or mislabeling of honey or imitations thereof.


Also, the PA law quote in post #26 above says *nothing *about dehydrating honey to meet a particular moisture content.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

No it does not as long as it is TRANSFOEMED BY the BEES. as clearly stated in line 3 section 1.
section 4 only deals with the federal "Jurisdiction" or "activities" it does not yield total authority to the federal laws but simply does not preempt their Jurisdiction. To make it easier to understand it means that if a labeling violation, violates both Pennsylvania and federal law, punishment under Pennsylvania law would not constitute appeasement of any federal law violations, thus the federal government would also be able to prosecute.
But Hay, it does not matter to me one bit what someone shoves in their mouth. I suppose you would take a bottle of chateau de Rothchild 1941 and mix it up with some grape juice and call it wine too. sorry I think that is garbage too. I guess it all comes down to interpretation, The law, what constitutes honey, liberals interpreted things liberally, conservatives interpreted them conservatively, everyone thinks they are right and those who do not agree with them are wrong.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

jmgi said:


> Tenbears, I'm fairly certain that it has been done, that is, adding water to low moisture content honey to bring it up to 18% so that it goes further, not something that I have ever thought of doing, but as the saying goes, money is the root of all evil, so yes its probably been done.
> 
> Section 1 of the Pennsylvania honey law is totally correct, it's made by honey bees. YOU have added your own personal feelings to the rest of the law (going beyond what is written) based on your "purest attitude". The state of Pennsylvania always has been nit-pickers about most everything that goes on within their boundaries, JMO. John


LOOK, Nectar is not made by the bees it is made by flowers, and it is not honey until processed by the bees to a moisture content of below 18.5% it is just that simple. interpret it how you like the fact is if it is not 18.5%moisture it is not honey yet. USDA B and C grading is because they have caved into pressure put on by lobbyists who represent the guys who want to cheat. you said it yourself. MONEY is the root of all evil. Not to mention the USDA grading system is total bunk with no uniformity, and no inspection system.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

WilMorris, my suggestion is to take what you have, and use it, store it for a while like you would cured honey, and then see where it goes after you try it again. Im thinking you will eventually agree with Mark, that the best solution is not throw it in the garbage but rather make proper use of it and feed it back to the bees


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Tenbears, thanks for correcting me that bees don't make nectar, flowers do.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Tenbears said:


> As one believes in calling a spade a spade I do not feel that any artificial manipulation of the product by the beekeeper, processer, or anyone else can possibly be honey, and in my Opinion is *garbage*, because it has been contaminated, and I would not eat it, any more that I would eat sugar water with imitation maple flavoring in it.


This is quite amusing. Here you are telling us that any action by the beekeeper to reduce moisture content results in "garbage", while today, in another thread you advocate treating hives with honey supers with powdered sugar! 



Tenbears said:


> You have to decide which is most important to you. The honey or the bees. I would dose the hive down well with powdered sugar about three times over the next 9 days, then do a mite count.


So apparently removing water from honey makes it _garbage_, but honey + sugar is fine! :lpf:

:ws:

Note, I have no objections to treating with powdered sugar, I am simply pointing out the inconsistency displayed here. :lookout:

(click the blue arrow in the quote box to see the full post the quote came from)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Tenbears said:


> No it does not as long as it is TRANSFOEMED BY the BEES. as clearly stated in line 3 section 1.
> section 4 only deals with the federal "Jurisdiction" or "activities" it does not yield total authority to the federal laws but simply does not preempt their Jurisdiction. To make it easier to understand it means that if a labeling violation, violates both Pennsylvania and federal law, punishment under Pennsylvania law would not constitute appeasement of any federal law violations, thus the federal government would also be able to prosecute.
> But Hay, it does not matter to me one bit what someone shoves in their mouth. I suppose you would take a bottle of chateau de Rothchild 1941 and mix it up with some grape juice and call it wine too. sorry I think that is garbage too. I guess it all comes down to interpretation, The law, what constitutes honey, liberals interpreted things liberally, conservatives interpreted them conservatively, everyone thinks they are right and those who do not agree with them are wrong.


Reducing moisture content of high moisture content honey is a long held practice in the commercial beekeeping community. What would you have someone w/ 5 barrels of 20% moisture content honey do? Dump it or reduce moisture by artificial means?

I may seem to be hypocritical here, but I recommended dumping a quart of honey (according to the OP's question) because it seemed to me more trouble than worth. Whereas, when one is making a living by honey production and sales, and that honey is not fully capped yet has to come off of hives, dehydration is the way to go.

Many people have Hot Rooms w/ fans and dehumidifiers in them to help dry down the honey before extracting.

TenBears is being literal, which is his privledge.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Ian said:


> WilMorris, my suggestion is to take what you have, and use it, store it for a while like you would cured honey, and then see where it goes after you try it again. Im thinking you will eventually agree with Mark, that the best solution is not throw it in the garbage but rather make proper use of it and feed it back to the bees


I had some further thoughts on this. It's only a quart or a quart and a half. Why not just keep it in the refrigerator and use it up as soon as possible. Refrigeration should keep the high moisture from going bad. Or slow it down I suspect.


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## Becky Jackson (Jun 7, 2013)

It disheartens me to see you revered regulars being offensive to each other. Many of us new people hold you in high regards for your wisdom and willingness to help us! Will just wanted to salvage something, he wasn't trying to sell it, so the USDA rules aren't applicable in his case. Haven't you ever wanted to make use of your honey crop even when something goes wrong? I had a bucket of honey with too high-water content which fermented. I didn't want to dump it in the garbage and it certainly can't be fed back to the bees, so I made MEAD with some of it. Thanks for the advice of dehydrating, I wish I had known back then...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If the bees would take it it could be fed back to the bees. Did you give them a chance at it?

Quantity was my first draw back. If he had a barrel I would have told him of my friend who elevated a barrel of honey so it was a little higher than his wood stove. He laid a piece of rain gutter across the burning stove and had another barrel at the other end of the gutter. He punched a hole in the honey barrel allowing the honey to drip onto the gutter and travel down into the other barrel, drying down as it went.

I don't know if that is practical w/ 1 and 1/2 quarts of honey.

As far as revered regulars being offensive, people have their passions and their strong held opinions. So, disagreements will occur. Ce' la vie.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> This is quite amusing. Here you are telling us that any action by the beekeeper to reduce moisture content results in "garbage", while today, in another thread you advocate treating hives with honey supers with powdered sugar!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Now, This is becoming ridiculous, We were not talking to a beekeeper who wanted to drop the moisture content of a volume of honey a few points. we were talking about someone who crushed up a bunch of wild comb with a undetermined amount of nectar, the post even stated "WATER in honey" the hive was only a few weeks old taking into account time to build come I doubt there was little actual honey.

Although I do not believe in extracting nectar I understand that small percentages can be acceptable, Just not for me. 

Now you two are down to manipulating my words in an attempt to prove your opinion's. I never said that manipulating the hive, or treating the bees was unacceptable. I said the "product" meaning honey as that was what the discussion was about. I do know that when selling bees either as packages of nucs than the bees would be the product however since we were dissuasion honey. THAT was the product I was referring to and I believe you knew it. As far as sugar in the honey I was telling the individual how to work toward solving a problem with his bee. I do not consume his honey. and I maintain Mt hives in such a manner as to not require treatment for mites when the supers are on. I am sure you realize that keeping mites well below the threshold of infestation when supers are no allow for a treatment free period when they are. 
Yes I believe pure honey mad by the bees wit as little nectar in it is the best. when we Extract any frames with uncapped Nectar/honey are set aside. and extracted of the uncapped material before capping's are removed the resulting product is them fed back to the bees. 
THIS IS HOW WE DO IT! and I believe it is how the best possible natural honey should be done. 

I believe deep down inside you agree and are just looking for a fight. your continual manipulation of the post and posting partial guidelines from the USDA demonstrates that. For If you know the USDA moisture percentages you also know they allow honey to be labeled as pure honey, That contains corn syrup, and a host of other ingredient


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I may seem to be hypocritical here, but I recommended dumping a quart of honey (according to the OP's question) because it seemed to me more trouble than worth.


If you had responded to the original post with a comment about the effort not being worth it, I would not have objected to your comment. 

But instead, you simply described the OP's honey as "garbage", and I am responding to that characterization.



Tenbears said:


> honey is the great chief's purest gift. any contamination at all ruins it. why consume *garbage*,,, you would not dream of eating yogurt with clean pure chicken fat in it would you?


Note that while I did post just a small part of the USDA honey standards in post #22, but I also provided a link to the _full _document.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

does everyone feel better now?


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

Actually I believe that as soon as the bees take the nectar into their honey stomach it has started the process of becoming honey and so therefore can no longer be considered nectar because the sugars have started inverting and changing, after that the bees put it into the cells and dry it. I doubt much additional inverting happens once the bees place it in the cells for drying. 

As for the Pennsylvanian law I didn't see anywhere in there where it mentioned that a beekeeper can't use dehumidifiers to lower the moisture content of their honey. The law appears to me to focus on no adding anything to the honey and still calling it honey. 

I don't personally have a refractometer and so there for don't know what the moisture percentage of my honey is. I do know this that bees will cap honey that ISN'T 18.??% moisture, and they will leave uncapped honey that is well below that. For me I do try to pull mostly capped honey, anything that isn't capped gets banged upside down on the hive, if nothing comes out it's done (I don't have the type of nectars around here that would be thick and still high moisture). This has been my practice for the last 10 years that I have been a beekeeper and I have NEVER had honey ferment on me, nor have I had a customer complain (every jar has my # on it). I do make sure to run the air conditioner and the dehumidifier before, during, and after extracting (until it's all bottled) to make sure that the honey I'm extracting doesn't absorb moisture from the 90% humidity Misery weather that we tend to have during extracting season. 

As for the OP's question. I'm baffled as to why he doesn't just feed it back to the bees (sure taste some) and get honey later (might be next year). BUT I WANT HONEY NOW, yeah and I WANT THE WINNING POWERBALL TICKET TOO!!!! LOL


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

He doesn't have the bees. He said he gave them away. He doesn't own any bees. He takes them out of houses and gives them to beekeepers.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Mark (sqkcrk), I see now that I quoted you in my post #38. While the quote itself is accurate, it is not relevant to the point I hoped to make in post #38. I had intended to quote a portion of _Tenbears _post #37, but screwed it up. I apologize for messing that up and dragging you back into the thread at that point.

(I would go back and change my post #38, but the time for editing older posts has expired.)


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Saw that and wondered about it and stopped thinking about it. No big deal. But thanks. I'm big, but not as big as ten bears. That would be frightening. "Oh my."


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

It's funny how I have been away from reading this thread for a couple days and I come back and it's still going strong, well maybe it's starting to wane a bit, hopefully. Tenbears had some strong personal opinions on what constitutes quality honey, and he backed it up with quotes from the Pennsylvania law, and that's totally fine, but I took offense to him calling the OP's uncured nectar, and my honey for that matter, "garbage", because I occasionally have to remove a point or two of moisture from it to get it to 18% or slightly under. John


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

WilMorris said:


> I just did a cutout with some new honey/nectar. the hive was pretty productive for only a week and a half of residence. I crushed/strained and ended up with a somewhat runny couple of quarts of honey-ish nectar. Is it OK to heat it on low to evaporate some H2O? If so, is there a temp threshold so I don't ruin the goodness?





Becky Jackson said:


> It disheartens me to see you revered regulars being offensive to each other.





> Will just wanted to salvage something, he wasn't trying to sell it, so the USDA rules aren't applicable in his case.





> I had a bucket of honey with too high-water content which fermented. I didn't want to dump it in the garbage and it certainly can't be fed back to the bees, so I made MEAD with some of it.


Becky, 

Had the mead suggestion been offered sooner the "revered regulars" (some of which may, or may not be "Old Farts") could have been discussing the virtues of fine fermentables... :gh:


Note to Will:

Once the "Old Fart" card is played, the gloves come off, and most assuredly, hell-fart and brimstone will rain down upon your thread...


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jmgi said:


> It's funny how I have been away from reading this thread for a couple days and I come back and it's still going strong, well maybe it's starting to wane a bit, hopefully. Tenbears had some strong personal opinions on what constitutes quality honey, and he backed it up with quotes from the Pennsylvania law, and that's totally fine, but I took offense to him calling the OP's uncured nectar, and my honey for that matter, "garbage", because I occasionally have to remove a point or two of moisture from it to get it to 18% or slightly under. John


John,
I know I easily take offense at times, but I'm trying to remember that I don't really know you or Tenbears or the OPer, so taking offense at something someone wrote is kinda silly. I'm trying to keep that in mind when I read something which seems pointed at me on a personal level. For whatever that is worth.

When I am working hives I sometimes shake bees off of combs before putting them into nuc boxes or other hives. Nectar shakes out of the combs onto my boots. Least that's what I and friends I talk to call it. We don't say "Honey was shaking out today." or "Unripe honey was shaking out today." So that's why I would characterize what this "water in honey" Thread is about. Not really water in honey, but uncured or unripe honey which I would characterize as nectar.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Mark, well, maybe taking offense by what someone said was not really the best choice of words from my end, especially since what Tenbears originally said was not directed at me personally but someone else. I was just defending a method of removing excessive moisture that I have used and I know many others do, and the resulting product is still honey, not garbage, at least IMO. There are proper words to describe what we are talking about here, unripe nectar/unripe honey=nectar, there we both said it. John


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## Edaw (Jan 29, 2013)

And to think when he said Old Farts I thought he was joking. That is a funny expression where I come from.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Context is important Edaw. The new guy was over stepping his bounds if he was assuming a certain level of familiarity. KInda like being the new guy in the Bee Club. During the coffee break socializing time it would be rude for the new guy to walk up and refer to people he didn't know as "you Old Farts". Don't you think? I thought it was an aggressive act. And if you will notice, he ain't around any more. So, I think that says it was a cowardly attack too. Maybe.


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## Edaw (Jan 29, 2013)

Point taken.


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