# vertical double deep frame prototype



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think you might need a bottom center support or diagonal wire inside the frame to keep the frames from sagging out of square. They will be heavy suckers! My fingers would not be up to the task of pulling them!


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Those frames are going to be large and bulky and weigh in around 14lbs I'd say. I would have a hard time being able to manage them during inspections. I myself would rather go to all 8 frame medium langstroth boxes. Granted a box would weigh in at over 30lbs, but I think I could manage it, even if I just took an empty box with me to use to set frames in during inspection. 

However, people do like to try new things, I see nothing really wrong with what you are suggesting, If you think it'll work for you then by all means go for it!


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## Oldman47 (Sep 7, 2017)

Have you considered using the basic Layens frame design but replacing the center brace in that frame with a half top and half bottom bar. You would end up with 2 stacked frames roughly the height of 2 separate deep frames. You could easily splice them together using your metal straps or even screw in some short & thin wooden blocks as the joint you would break loose to extract. The frame design I have found used a 1/4 inch dowel to provide that very tall frame with some support at the midpoint but the small bars would allow you to separate into 2 frames for extraction. 
http://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/hive-frame-swarm-trap.shtml


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## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

Oldman47 said:


> Have you considered using the basic Layens frame design but replacing the center brace in that frame with a half top and half bottom bar. You would end up with 2 stacked frames roughly the height of 2 separate deep frames.
> ...


If I understand you correctly, the end bars wouldn't be solid pieces, which would transfer all the stress on the screws/ties. What I called "ties" is actually called strong-ties, or punched flat bars made of steel.

If the the long dimension of the foundations is vertical instead then the end bars can be made of continuous boards.

Yes, the hive I want to build is not very different from Layens, except it should be deeper, bigger, compatible with Lang equipment, superable, and have a screened bottom. 

I've seen that guy's website, but his is just a slightly bigger Layens, which is still too small for my purpose with frames too big for a hobby extractor.



RayMarler said:


> Those frames are going to be large and bulky and weigh in around 14lbs I'd say.


14 lbs. at most! This makes me want to build it sooner! 



crofter said:


> I think you might need a bottom center support or diagonal wire inside the frame to keep the frames from sagging out of square. They will be heavy suckers! My fingers would not be up to the task of pulling them!


I hope those screwed on 6" flat bars on top and bottom should take care of sagging. If not, then the flat bars can be made a bit thicker or longer. Considering that these frames will be used for brood nest, they shouldn't be super-heavy.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

If you are truly after the ergonomic side, double-deep Lang frame is a bit too much.
Still heavy when loaded and not exactly convenient to work.
By the same logic, it is possible to connect deep to medium OR medium to medium.

Sorry for the repeated rants, but have you look at these yet?
These are Lang mediums zip-tied and having a common top bar screwed in.
Look at the deep horizontal hive topics for details.




















But also, why connect the frames? 
It is not required either.
Why not simply run them as-is at 90 degree turn?
Here is nuc with standard Lang deep frames turned 90 degrees in row of 90.







You can then do 2 rows of 10 or 3 rows of 10 (use support brackets).

Finally, you can do something like this:


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## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

GregV said:


> ...
> These are Lang mediums zip-tied and having a common top bar screwed in.
> Look at the deep horizontal hive topics for details.
> ...


I want to use waxed plastic foundations, which is the first reason not to use zip-ties.

I have and not liked what I saw.



GregV said:


> ...
> But also, why connect the frames?
> ...


I want to extract, not to crush the comb: this half-frame will be sturdy enough to go through extraction.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

baybee said:


> I want to extract, not to crush the comb: this half-frame will be sturdy enough to go through extraction.


OK; I see.
I would not complicate this then.
I would do exactly as suggested - just run a Lang long hive using the deep frames as-is the shallow way (or reoriented in the deep way) and be done with it.
Disassembling/assembling frames for extraction - unnecessary pain. 
Totally no needed.



> (d) should be able to accept regular Dadant deep frames from Langs.


I read this as using a deep Dadant frame (for extraction?)
Then if you have an extractor for deep Dadant frames, two Lang mediums tired together give you exact that dimension. Extract-as is.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Here is a good video.
Related. 
He just connects his frames horizontally.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYbXZghAWHA


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

FWIW, the 'Layens Hive' as shown on the HorizontalHive site is a framed top-bar hive, whereas authentic Layens Hives are framed hives, not top-bar hives.

It might be worth pointing out that over the years Layens Hives have developed into 4 formats: 




I recently came across a French site which described these Layens formats thusly:


> *Traditional (native) Layens Hive.*
> The native Layens Hive was certainly one of the most widespread in France at the beginning of the 20th century.
> In Spain the Layens hive is still used, mainly for transhumance, especially in the regions of Valenciana, Andalusia and Extremadura. It represents 80% of the Spanish production, it's average annual yield being 17 kg. It's equipped with a hinged roof perfectly adapted for transport.
> The size of Layens frames is always the same, however the number of frames is typically 12, 14, 16 or 24. Once built, the volume of the hive cannot be increased.
> ...


If I understand your design criteria correctly - the Pastoral format would appear to fit the bill, without any need to construct complex divisible brood frames.
LJ


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## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

GregV said:


> Here is a good video.
> Related.
> He just connects his frames horizontally.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYbXZghAWHA


Yeah, and he also explains why horizontal connection is not a good idea.


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## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

little_john said:


> ...
> If I understand your design criteria correctly - the Pastoral format would appear to fit the bill, without any need to construct complex divisible brood frames.
> LJ


Yes, thanks for the explanation, it's similar to the Pastoral. However, first, I won't be able to extract Layens frames due to their dimensions, which will be necessary even though they are for brood; and, second, I would rather build horizontal hive with a possibility for supering with standard equipment.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Why on earth would you want to extract a Layens frame ? They're BROOD frames. Any small amount of honey in them is left for over-wintering.

If you're hell bent on building a horizontal hive, then why not build one of the above - suitably modified - such as:



If you were to convert the first frame over the loft into a Q/X and make an entrance at either end - that would fulfill your criteria. Make the half-frames to fit your existing top-bar length. You could always reduce the number of double-deep frames to fit the colony size, and to maximise the honey harvest stored in the half-sized frames.

BTW - the principle reason why most folks build Long Hives is that they DON'T require supering.
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

baybee said:


> Yeah, and he also explains why horizontal connection is not a good idea.


And I also commented on his video - he should be using follower boards to keep his nest tight.
IF you keep you nest TOO open, they will only use the upper half (until they run out of room - THEN they will expand down).
People are just not getting the idea of follower board usage.

You keep them tight - they will fill top to the bottom.
THEN you expand.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> ...
> BTW - the principle reason why most folks build Long Hives is that they DON'T require supering.
> LJ


Hehe.. Exactly.
Anyway, this summer I will try to do a horizontal honey section using just the Lang medium frames.
Will post IF/WHEN I get it done. 
I want to drop them in deep-way back into the honey sections and see.

For sure, this idea of vertical supering is just a very stubborn mind-set (yet - not required).

But yes - go ahead and do vertical supering over the large horizontals.
Just like so:


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> If I understand your design criteria correctly - the Pastoral format would appear to fit the bill, without any need to construct complex divisible brood frames.
> LJ


Something like Pastoral design I want to try out.
It is, essentially, that Ukrainian-style with supers I just posted.
No queen excluders are needed typically - the queen just likes staying on deep brood frames.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Why on earth would you want to extract a Layens frame ? They're BROOD frames. ...
> LJ


Now, hold it LJ.

Layens are totally extractable and are not BROOD frames by default.
Like I have been saying - you organize your hives in asymmetric fashion; all it is.
There will be very clear brood sections and honey section.
The honey section is totally harvest-able.

In fact, unsure why/how but the very original idea of Layens to keep the entrances asymmetric gets lost again and again.
End yet Layens clearly stated - "the other entrance *always *kept shut"; which enables the honey/brood section separation.
The page with quote: 








(Funny part - Layens on this exact page states how he does not believe in divisions boards. Well, he was beekeeping in quite mild climate too and did not have to deal with nucs, splits and such.
But also, Layens would leave his hives unattended for months in a row. 
In such a scenario, a division board could create problems with brood nest expansion.
Division board does require periodic attention and adjustments (even eventual removal).
This part I can understand why Layens would not be using such boards - he was not able/willing to check on his hives every 1-2 weeks.)

Just like with TBH-style, you gradually rotate older combs out of brood section into honey section and (eventually) every brood frame becomes honey frames and gets harvested (even just for the comb rotation sake).
For one, I would never destroy a empty comb just for the wax; it has to have some harvest-able honey in it. 
Crash-strain - get your wax, and perga, and honey in a double-whammy.


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## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

GregV said:


> And I also commented on his video - he should be using follower boards to keep his nest tight.
> ...


Makes sense! Should a follower board sit tightly against the walls and the bottom keeping the bees out, or bee-space gaps around the edges are necessary?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

baybee said:


> Makes sense! Should a follower board sit tightly against the walls and the bottom keeping the bees out, or bee-space gaps around the edges are necessary?


You *absolutely * want bees to be able to access the volume outside of the follower board.
Either under OR around OR both.
The follower board is NOT a queen excluder. 
Neither is it a colony separator.

The follower board (other names used as well) is a trivial device to let bees know where their brood nest stops and this is how they normally treat it.
As LJ and I repeatedly stated already, queen will hardly ever cross the follower board (not guarantied, but very, very unlikely).

One of very effective usages of the follower board - swarm prevention.
Bees "know" they have lots of space outside of the follower board and don't feel stressed for space.
And yet - their own brood nest can be as tight as necessary to achieve your goals.

Another usage - compress the nest during the cold season (very effective for weak colonies; where you keep the honey frames outside of the board for easy access and still keep the brood nest compact so the weak cluster is able to keep it conditioned).


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregV said:


> Now, hold it LJ.
> 
> Layens are totally extractable and are not BROOD frames by default.


Greg - if you look at the graphic I posted - the yellow frames are the Layens brood frames, and the green frames are for honey. Only the 'Original' used the full depth frames for honey. The later versions were developed for sound reasons (!), so I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. You'd need a very large diameter extractor for those full depth frames !!

AND - in this case they very likely have to be 'brood only', 'cause the OP wants to use plastic foundation. No potential for partial crush & strain here. (Unless the OP wants to clear each frame of brood before extracting, of course) 



> Funny part - Layens on this exact page states how he does not believe in divisions boards.


But that wasn't always the case:


Pretty clever - the use of hinged partition/follower/division boards to get a trouble-free fit at the sides. Might have to play with that idea myself ...

Would be useful if there was an online copy of the later Layens book - the only one available right now is the 2nd edition, and that's in French.
LJ


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## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

Wheel already invented.


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## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

EastSideBuzz said:


> Wheel already invented.


Do you mean the plans are available?

I wouldn't call it invention, it's more of modification/tweaking, which is a reasonable thing to do considering that I'll be the one building every single part.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Greg - You'd need a very large diameter extractor for those full depth frames !!....
> 
> AND - in this case they very likely have to be 'brood only', 'cause the OP wants to use plastic foundation. No potential for partial crush & strain here. (Unless the OP wants to clear each frame of brood before extracting, of course)
> 
> LJ


Extractor - you think how exactly they extract deep Dadant/Ukrainian frames down East?
Well, the Layens frames are even smaller than Dadant frames to worry much about the extraction.

Heck, they even extract the full Lazutin frames using standard extractors (three of those giant frames placed tangentially).

All in all - the extraction is a non-issue as we can see.
You want to extract, then go ahead and extract.
Clearly, equipment exists for those willing to pay:
http://horizontalhive.com/buy-hive-bees/swarm-trap-top-bar-sale.shtml

Like I said, I do mean to run the honey section using just the standard Lang frames dropped in the deep way (either deeps or mediums) - does not matter all.
But being a cheap-skate I am, I don't even have an extractor (will need to get creative, I guess).


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## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

GregV said:


> You *absolutely * want bees to be able to access the volume outside of the follower board.
> Either under OR around OR both.
> The follower board is NOT a queen excluder.
> Neither is it a colony separator.
> ...


Got it! I had been under impression until your clarification that a follower board was a division board made by a sloppy beekeeper.  If you cut the plywood part to the correct dimensions you call it division board; you cut off too much, you call it follower board.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Greg - ......
> Would be useful if there was an online copy of the later Layens book - the only one available right now is the 2nd edition, and that's in French.
> LJ


Here you go (have to buy though; I only have few pages of the preview, freely availble):
http://horizontalhive.com/keeping-bees-with-a-smile/georges-layens-book.shtml


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

baybee said:


> Got it! I had been under impression until your clarification that a follower board was a division board made by a sloppy beekeeper.  If you cut the plywood part to the correct dimensions you call it division board; you cut off too much, you call it follower board.


Correct.
These are totally different equipment items with different design and different objectives.

My follower boards are usually insulated, free hanging dummy frames. 
But also have just 1/2 inch plywood boards too. 
Anything goes.
LJ has similar designs, per his site.

The divider boards, on the other hand, 1/4 inch plastic sheets that fit into pre-cut grooves very tightly and are bee-proof.
These are meant to separate colonies kept in the same hive body.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

I tried all kinds of horizontal hives. The bebestas fitted for ordinary frames. Make a 2 or 3 section inner cover!!! You can do anything with this, that can be done with standard boxes. In nice weather you can put on ordinary supers on a cover. And a travel cover for the rest of the opening, just like regulars. Best benefit: interchangable frames. You will be glad you did some day.


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## baybee (Jan 10, 2016)

jadebees said:


> I tried all kinds of horizontal hives. The bebestas fitted for ordinary frames.
> ...


What are the dimensions of the hive? Or plans?


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## FavRoman (Dec 13, 2020)

Greetings from Russia


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## FavRoman (Dec 13, 2020)

Greetings from Russia! we have a saying "there Is no prophet in your country", which means that a foreigner always looks better than their own)))), so I had a lot of fun searching for information on an English-language forum and seeing links to Russian videos, it's great that we can easily exchange opinions. For those who are interested in the work of lines, I recommend the French library website, where you can download all His works in PDF format, as well as txt, which can be translated using Google. I wish you all good luck! 
Votre recherche - "Layens Georges de" : 13 résultats - Gallica
Cours complet d'apiculture : (culture des abeilles) / par MM. Georges de Layens,... et Gaston Bonnier,... | Gallica
Construction économique des ruches à cadres, par Georges de Layens,... | Gallica


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## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

FavRoman, welcome to Beesource. We owe a lot to our member GregV who provides the links and a brief English summary to the Russian beekeeping videos. Lots to learn from the other side of the world.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

FavRoman said:


> Greetings from Russia!


Wecome FavRoman!

Indeed, I am a little disappointed of how the language barriers prevent a free flow of knowledge and information bi-directionally. Both English-speaking and Russian/Ukrainian-speaking beekeeping worlds have something to learn from each other.

And not just the beekeepers.
Free and easy communication would open up a lot of eyes.
But that is a different subject.

This winter (time permitting) I am willing to try translating/dubbing few worthy (IMO) YT videos from Russian into English for Beesource members consumption. Of course, these will be the subjects I care about the most (doing it for free). I already got a permission from one of the Russian-speaking YT channels.
Will see what happens and we'll go from there!


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

JWPalmer said:


> We owe a lot to our member GregV


Thanks JW!


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Bay Bee,

At Dr Leos site there are books one can buy,, one has plans for a "Layens" style double deep ( Lang frame long hive).
I have built a couple of them 4 foot long or so.
PM me if you wish to chat about it.
Basically I set 2 frames on the table 1 over the other and built a hive around it. I was mildly impressed with the wintering for last winter, So this winter I am trying the Buckeye Hive for stand alone stackable results.

this double deep lang offers the ability to extract any frame you wish, use 5, 8 and 10 frame for splits and to transfer in and out of it. Example last spring I made a 6 way split on the double deep long hive when I found Queen cells. some went into NUCs some into 8 frame some into 10. Emptied it, cleaned it up moved it re did the under,, as it had sunk, they do get heavy.

If you are building it , think it thru, until there are very few issues.

quick look: Natural Beekeeping | Free Plans | Double-Deep Long Hive 
my deviation was to make 2x4 insulated walls, 1/2 inch green ply on the outside , 3/4 T&G on the inside, with vapor barrier. takes 2 men to move empty and a forklift with bees in it, but hey the wind will not tip it over...

GG


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## FavRoman (Dec 13, 2020)

GregV said:


> Wecome FavRoman!
> 
> Indeed, I am a little disappointed of how the language barriers prevent a free flow of knowledge and information bi-directionally. Both English-speaking and Russian/Ukrainian-speaking beekeeping worlds have something to learn from each other.
> 
> ...


great idea and worthy work! but I would bet on written translations, since the book of Abbot Varre appeared in our country five years ago, in Russian, these hives began to appear all over the country. and it seems to me the same with the books of Lyans and Lazutin. I am now trying to translate from German a book by Johann Ludwig Christ, about his hive.


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