# Need tips on removal of 2-week-old swarm from sewer manhole



## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

My friend reported this swarm in Lawndale, CA on April 5th, in a sewer manhole :









No one responded to her request for live removal, and it's in a high school that wants to go nuclear on them, so it might be up to me to get them out.

Any tips on a removal of this type? Questions:


Are they likely to have built comb directly on the underside of the manhole cover?
If so, any tips on lifting the cover without destroying the comb?
Any tips, generally, on removing very fresh comb? It'll be very soft, right?


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Go into a hive and pull a frame of brood & honey (2 frames - 1 of each) Pull cover gently - knock off the bees in the box - Cut the new comb from the manhole cover and junk it. Place box on top of manhole cover close or on top of the hole there using and move hive that night to where you want them. (at least a couple of miles away)


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

sakhoney said:


> Go into a hive and pull a frame of brood & honey (2 frames - 1 of each) Pull cover gently - knock off the bees in the box - Cut the new comb from the manhole cover and junk it. Place box on top of manhole cover close or on top of the hole there using and move hive that night to where you want them. (at least a couple of miles away)


Hmm. I don't have a strong colony available to donate brood and honey right now. I might have some old comb available, but no guarantee. I'll look tomorrow morning.

So the new comb is typically not salvageable?

Any tips on finding the queen in a situation like this? I don't have a bee vac in any case, so I'll need to catch her individually.

Has anyone extracted from a sewer cover before? What does it typically look like inside? No, I'm not worried about any "ick" factor; I'm just wondering if it's going to be a big empty cylinder, which would be easy, or if it's going to be a more complicated space.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Back years ago I would pull bees from anything. I have removed them from water meter covers, 55 gallon drums, old water tanks, even a old fuel tank from a tractor. I have seen inside a man hole cover. They usually are just a cylinder and some have a ladder attached. Smell - the bees would not have hived up if its to bad. Putting them on old come runs the risk of them swarming again. If you don't have a frame of brood - try to fine one - other beekeeper ETC. That usually will lock them in. If not - take a old frame and some rubber bands/string and carefully cut the existing come from the cover and fasten it in. That may just hold them.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

sakhoney said:


> If not - take a old frame and some rubber bands/string and carefully cut the existing comb from the cover and fasten it in. That may just hold them.


I might have to do this. Any tips on rubber-banding fragile comb into a frame? I was thinking of putting a piece of cardboard backing into the frame first, then putting the comb in, and then gently sliding the cardboard out. But would this do more harm than good?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

The smaller the comb the easier it is, larger pieces will just be too much of a hassle to try to work with, they'll just fall apart if they got nectar in them. If they just have eggs and stuff it's better, but the weight of the nectar is the main issue.


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## Scott Gough (Dec 10, 2015)

If it is a typical manhole it is just a big empty cylinder. Around here they are 48" diameter under the manhole lid. 

The hard part might be getting the lid off without harming the comb and bees. I would bet the comb is attached to the lid underside. Manhole lids are usually removed using a bar that hooks under a small lip and pulled to the side. If the comb is attached to the underside the lid will need to be lifted straight up. The lids typically weigh more than 100 lbs so you will need some help to get it lifted and then something to set it on once it is removed. 

Good luck and post pictures when you get done.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

No tips on that - this will be nice new fragile white comb. Enough finger pressure to pick it up will crush it. Just no way to get a frame of brood from another hive. Even if you just shake off all the bees and borrow it for a couple of days? Borrow the frame - catch the swarm - let swarm queen start laying in the combs you give her - then repo the frame of brood back and reinstall back in original hive. of course - without the bees.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

JRG13 said:


> The smaller the comb the easier it is, larger pieces will just be too much of a hassle to try to work with, they'll just fall apart if they got nectar in them. If they just have eggs and stuff it's better, but the weight of the nectar is the main issue.


Yeah, I'm not so concerned with saving wax and nectar; I can always feed to supplement.

I want to save eggs and brood, if at all possible, because I don't think I'll have anything to donate to the new box. Unless one of my captured/trapped swarms has done amazingly well over the last 10 days, but I think that's being overly optimistic.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

sakhoney said:


> No tips on that - this will be nice new fragile white comb. Enough finger pressure to pick it up will crush it. Just no way to get a frame of brood from another hive. Even if you just shake off all the bees and borrow it for a couple of days? Borrow the frame - catch the swarm - let swarm queen start laying in the combs you give her - then repo the frame of brood back and reinstall back in original hive. of course - without the bees.


My other hive is just so weak right now that I'm afraid to take anything from it other than unused comb. But I hadn't thought about just borrowing it for a few days. I may try that, depending on how my colony looks tomorrow morning.

But why would old comb induce swarming again? I though old comb was an inducement to them. It certainly didn't prevent me from catching a swarm in my bait hive.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

Scott Gough said:


> If it is a typical manhole it is just a big empty cylinder. Around here they are 48" diameter under the manhole lid.
> 
> The hard part might be getting the lid off without harming the comb and bees. I would bet the comb is attached to the lid underside. Manhole lids are usually removed using a bar that hooks under a small lip and pulled to the side. If the comb is attached to the underside the lid will need to be lifted straight up. The lids typically weigh more than 100 lbs so you will need some help to get it lifted and then something to set it on once it is removed.
> 
> Good luck and post pictures when you get done.


This cover has a single, round hole right in the middle:









I don't have a lid remover right now, and the schedule just got accelerated because the high school wants to exterminate them tomorrow.

I'm thinking that, if I can find a way to lift the lid, I could put two concrete blocks on the ground and set the lid's edges on the blocks to hang it in free space while I work. If the comb is already longer than the height of the blocks I could put them next to the hole and just hang them down the hole.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Its not the old combs - its just when you start a swarm back on no brood after they start a new brood nest - they will sometime just not do nothing for a couple of days while they lighten the queen up again and away they go. If they have brood - usually locks them in the new box and she just lays like normal


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## Scott Gough (Dec 10, 2015)

It looks like they use the hole in the center to pull the lid to the side. The blocks are a good idea. You might be able to slide the lid to the side a little to get your fingers under the lid for lifting without hurting the comb. Naturally, the longer they have been there the more comb that will be attached to the bottom.


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## jaked007 (Apr 16, 2014)

Contact City Public Works and ask to use a manhole hook. Be very careful it is much heavier than you may think. If you get that lid on a finger or foot you could easily lose it.


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## Scott Gough (Dec 10, 2015)

jaked007 said:


> Contact City Public Works and ask to use a manhole hook. Be very careful it is much heavier than you may think. If you get that lid on a finger or foot you could easily lose it.


Very true.


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## Dan P (Oct 29, 2014)

Yes set against some brick or just flip over all the way. If you flip it over plug hole quickly or she will run under. Then rubber band the comb to frame. Yes some might get damaged the bees will fix it. Place box as close as possible to work area maybe with a quick cardboard ramp to entrance. Sometimes ill even add a drop of lure or lemongrass in box. Charge close to amount for an exterminator and get a city guy to assist, liability issues?


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

The good news is that my friend found a real beekeeper to do the removal, which will start in about an hour 

The bad news is that I won't get the bees :-(

The good news is that the "manhole cover" is just an access cover that's about 18" diameter, max. 

She's going to do the "flip over" method on this. I'll be watching and helping a little bit, though I have only a veil with me, so I'm not going to get too involved. I'll take some photos if I can.


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## Dan P (Oct 29, 2014)

Bee prepared they might not be nice. based on your location


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

Dan P said:


> Bee prepared they might not be nice. based on your location


Yes! I have had some nice bees and some not-so-nice bees in my area!


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> The good news is that my friend found a real beekeeper to do the removal, which will start in about an hour
> 
> The bad news is that I won't get the bees :-(
> 
> ...


The [email protected]$(*&($&[email protected]#*& horrific news is that someone at the high school called a 3rd-party exterminator, who arrived 10 minutes before we all did. This, despite we had already chased away taxpayer-paid County Vector Control, who had already agreed to give us today to humanely extract the colony.

I arrived just as he was pulling away in his Van of Death, having sprayed poison into the sewer access cover hole. Of course this sewer access cover is RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ORGANIC LEARNING GARDEN at a school, where children go every day to learn about plants and nature while growing edible crops that they will eat later in the year. So of course this is a perfect place to spray poison.

We got the cover off as soon as we could, but it was a lost cause. There were thousands of dead bees in the cavity and none left on the comb:
















It was a very sad day. The comb was chock full of eggs, though no visible larvae or capped brood. So she must have just started laying.

The old gray comb was from a previous colony a few years ago that was also sprayed to death.

We are now chasing upward in the Facilities chain of command to see who called the exterminator, and why. This person obviously doesn't care about bees, but I think we can make a very strong case that he or she did the entire school a disservice by making the situation less safe.

Had we been able to do a proper removal, every single bee from that colony would have been in a box by evening, and tomorrow morning there would have been no colony left.

As things are now there are several thousand returning foragers who have no place to go, and who will be circling the area for days to come.

As you can probably tell, I'm pretty angry about all this right now.

The only good to come out of this is that I met some beekeepers I hadn't known before, and we are working to try to change the school policy on this.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Who was the pest control Co. Call them and put in your name. I have good relations with most in my area and they call me before destroying any swarms, bees in walls, ETC. This may work out for the good. Lemons to lemonade.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

sakhoney said:


> Who was the pest control Co. Call them and put in your name. I have good relations with most in my area and they call me before destroying any swarms, bees in walls, ETC. This may work out for the good. Lemons to lemonade.


The problem is that the incentives are all wrong. If the exterminator takes the call, he gets paid. If he passes the call on to the beeks, he doesn't get paid. 

If the exterminator is the type of person who values the lives of bees, he would be very unlikely to have taken a job as an exterminator!


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## Dan P (Oct 29, 2014)

I also get calls from exterminators. I believe they would rather spray spiders and ants. Not attack bees. So I would assume it depends on location


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

A friend told me about a swarm of bees in her neighborhood, and it looks like they just moved into a water meter cavity. They got lucky, because it's a duplex 









I see bees flying into both holes, so I suspect there is one cavity underground with two separate lids. The tenant tells me she first noticed them on Tuesday, but she isn't in the habit of inspecting the water meter, so they may have been there longer.

I might be able to try an extraction on Saturday afternoon. 

So all the good advice I got on this thread may yet come in useful. . . .


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## Dan P (Oct 29, 2014)

I love water meter boxes. Make a lid with special hole to hold water meter covers. Then just bring an extra cover. I also put a piece of tape over hole when done. Easy 50-75$


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

Dan P said:


> I love water meter boxes. Make a lid with special hole to hold water meter covers. Then just bring an extra cover. I also put a piece of tape over hole when done. Easy 50-75$


I'm not sure I grok what you're saying. You bring an extra water meter lid and just swap with the colonized one? How do the utility companies feel about that?


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## Dan P (Oct 29, 2014)

Yes. They havent said anything. Cause if you look around they are different, concrete,black,and green


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

you can buy a meter cover box at the big box stores - all shapes, sizes, & colors. Also you can just pull the cover - take it home - remove the bees from the cover and bring it back.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

sakhoney said:


> you can buy a meter cover box at the big box stores - all shapes, sizes, & colors. Also you can just pull the cover - take it home - remove the bees from the cover and bring it back.


Ingenious! I suppose it's easier with a plastic lid. The concrete ones are heavy!

I'm not sure I'll have time to do this before my next business trip. I was hoping for a quick and easy swarm capture, not a cutout!


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

sakhoney said:


> No tips on that - this will be nice new fragile white comb. Enough finger pressure to pick it up will crush it.


Does wax harden up over time? Or only through repeated brood cycles?

If I can't get a swarm out in the first 24 hours (e.g. before they've built comb) am I better off waiting a couple of weeks? Assuming, of course, that the external circumstances would permit a delay.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> I was hoping for a quick and easy swarm capture, not a cutout!


If they are hanging on a tree branch, it's a swarm. If they have gone thru a hole 'inside' something, anything, then it's a cut out.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

yes wax does harden over time - Also if you can cool it - it will harden up. If it were me - Grab the top of this meter cover and see what ya got. You can then set it on top of a nuc box. Use some form of plastic ETC to cover anything exposed. See what comb is being made. If it runs long ways - great - fill anything you can with pulled frames. The sooner you can pull the burr comb the better. You want them pulling your combs instead of making burr comb.
Now - a quick cutout - You got any more hives that you can pull a frame of brood & honey from? if so use it. Shake the bees off the burr comb into a box with the 2 frames - this will usually hold a new swarm or a cutout. slamming them on nothing runs the risk of them taking off again


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## Rzrbackbees (Mar 17, 2015)

Luckily the Honey Bee is the state insect here in Arkansas which requires that the pest control companies make an effort to contact a beekeeper to remove the bees.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> A friend told me about a swarm of bees in her neighborhood, and it looks like they just moved into a water meter cavity. They got lucky, because it's a duplex
> 
> View attachment 23963
> 
> ...


The cutout was a success, but a bit anticlimactic, because the colony was tiny. Really tiny:






But now I can say that I've done a water meter cutout. Achievement unlocked!

I got eggs and brood into the nuc, so I didn't need to use the frame of eggs and brood I borrowed from my other hive, and i returned it.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

well its about time - you been pissing around with this thing long enough. HAHAHA - Waterbug getting bees out of a water meter - how ironic 
Glad it worked out for ya. good video - also like all the little helpers - we need young beekeepers - your starting them out good.


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