# Wax Moths in Winter?



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>1) Are these wax worm dropings OR "Queen poop"? 

Wax moth droppings. You'll never see "Queen poop" her attendants take care of that for her.

>2) Can worms survive freezing temps (maybe within warm cluster)?

Yes, within the cluster. But the others in the outlying areas die. But mostly the bees tend to get the ones in the cluster. Some, however, hide in the midrib of the comb or the grooves on the top and bottom bar.

>We just had (last month) temps near zero.

But not in the cluster.


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## chemistbert (Mar 4, 2004)

You said "Queen poop"  

MB, how big are these larva? I just can't see the larva I am thinking of hiding much of anywhere a bee couldn't get to.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>"Queen poop" her attendants take care of that for her.

What do they do w/ it?

In my hive, they must turn it into V-mites









As they carry it out of hive, maybe they drop some, wouldnt it fall onto sticky-board?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>MB, how big are these larva? I just can't see the larva I am thinking of hiding much of anywhere a bee couldn't get to.

The bees can't seem to get them when they are in the groove in the bottom bar, or the groove in the top bar. Plus they often don't see them when they are in the midrib. When they start they are very small.

>What do they do w/ it?

I believe they eat it. At any rate they clean it up before anyone notices. I don't believe it is any different from worker bee excrement.

>As they carry it out of hive, maybe they drop some, wouldnt it fall onto sticky-board?

No. Wax moth feces is little tiny brown pellets. Queen feces, as far as I know, is yellow liquid like the workers.


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## mark williams (Jan 19, 2003)

Sometimes them thing's are hard to kill.I have some hive bodies that I've stored up that the wax moth got to.We have had plenty of freezing weather,they are in an unheated building.The other day while cleaning some up I cut the cocoon's & some of the worm's was still alive.It has been in the teen's several nights here.
The hive bodies has been empty out back in the early fall.How long can them thing's live in the cocoon?>>>>Mark


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

> I believe they eat it. At any rate they clean it up before anyone notices. I don't believe it is any different from worker bee excrement.

A couple of years ago I was examining a frame when I saw a bee actually expel on the top bar. Another bee close by began eating the stuff. Honest. 

And to think, later on they become foragers.....


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

And today in "Things Not To Tell Prospective Honey Customers 101"...


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

I think a lot is "said", and not "said" to "protect" the "market".

It is probably wise, and when I figure it all out, I promise NOT to tell!


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

Hey don't worry about it!! It is just ultra-processed honey!

Just like some of that honey stuff you can buy at the supermarket...

I think that the waxmoths can withstand some freezing as can most local insects. Frames in my garage where I am sure everything was freezing (-10 outside), and there were still wriggling worms later. Definately some in the hive too. Just not enough to worry about.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> I think that the waxmoths can withstand some 
> freezing as can most local insects. Frames in my 
> garage where I am sure everything was freezing 
> (-10 outside), and there were still wriggling 
> worms later.

Interesting, but killing wax moths has been 
looked at in extreme detail. Maybe your garage
stays warmer than you thought. I know that 
even an unheated garage will keep old MGs in 
a state that allows them to start easier in
the morning (thermal mass of the concrete
floor, air mass in the garage, etc etc.)

All states of the greater wax moth are killed at:

Temp............Hours
-----------.....----
20°F (-7°C)......4.5
10°F (-12°C)....3.0
5°F (-15°C)......2.0

115°F (46°C)....1.5
120°F (49°C)....0.75

(From "Honey Bee Pests Predators and Diseases",
any edition, any printing, any year.)

jim


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## chemistbert (Mar 4, 2004)

My grandfather used to tend bees and then he died. All the hives were sold but some boxes were left in and old travel trailer for 12 years. My brother and I were getting ready to reuse some of that gear and there were still wax worms. They had been in an unheated trailer for 12 years. Still wormy...


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>All states of the greater wax moth are killed at:

>Temp............Hours

Does this conflict w/ whats been said above?

It seems the more I read, the less I know!


MrBEE, please NEVER, NEVER go away.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>They had been in an unheated trailer for 12 years

What does a 12 YEAR OLD wax moth larvae look like???

Is this how mis-information begins?


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

>They had been in an unheated trailer for 12 years...

...and every year when it got warm, more wax moths
would visit, lay eggs, etc. Over a 12 year span, 
I'd expect all the comb to be "gone", leaving 
nothing but bare woodenware. Any comb left at all
would be "very lucky".

jim


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Does this conflict w/ whats been said above?

I think most people would be surpised how warm their garage is. Especially if anyone insulated it (which I would do if I were building it). Your house loses heat to the garage all the time. It's possible that it doesn't freeze or it barely freezes in the garage. I have never seen wax moths survive a hard freeze. Even if you have supers outside and it frosts (32 F) it seldom freezes inside the super when that happens because it moderates the temperature some.

The numbers Jim quotes above are what I have seen in the books and consistent with what I have observed in reality.

Wax moths are like mice only more so. They can smell a hive from miles away, can find a hole just big enough to squeeze through (much smaller than you would believe they can get through) and one moth will lay a lot of eggs.

My guess is that they found their way into the trailer every summer.

I made the mistake one year of storing my super wet in my basement. There are still hundreds of moths down there and there haven't been supers down there for years. I don't know what they live on or how they manage to reproduce or where they come from or how they got there in the first place.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Boy, I must be having a worse day than I thought.

Does anyone see a problem w/
>all states (moths,eggs,larvae,cocoons?) are killed at . . . etc, etc. and then, a simple statement that contradicts that?

Why read any book, if the info given does not apply to reality?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Does anyone see a problem w/
>>all states (moths,eggs,larvae,cocoons?) are killed at . . . etc, etc. and then, a simple statement that contradicts that?

What do you think contradicts it? I'm with Jim. Either the trailer hasn't gotten that cold or the moths keep getting back in the trailer. It only takes one moth to lay an awful lot of eggs. It only taks a hole about 1/8" in diameter for the moth to get in. SOME moths are around anytime the weather is warm, but not a lot until the middle of summer. Wax moths can smell beeswax from miles away. Who says the moths in the trailer don't die every winter? For that matter, where do the moths come from everywhere else, every spring if really cold weather kills them? Where do the house flies come from every spring if really cold weather kills them? I can tell you, because I've seen many of both. They are under the shingles of your house and under the sideing on your house and any other warm, small place where they can keep from totally freezing. Most of them still die, but a few always manage to survive and it doesn't take very many.

The inside of a trailer is much more protected from the weather than being outside, but I'm still guessing the moths die off every winter in there if it's not heated in PA. But the smell of the moths and the smell of the hives atrracts more moths.

The only way I've seen to keep the moths from eating the combs is either Paramoth (or equivelant) or Certan. I hate the Paramoth. But sealing them up helps. Putting them outside where the temperatures are more extreme helps (If you have really cold winters). Close up the boxes with Duct tape to seal all the cracks helps. If they set long enough ANYWHERE (other than a deep freeze) without either Certan or Paramoth, the moths will eventually completely turn them to webs.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>Why read any book, if the info given does not apply to reality?

because it's interesting to read, just like these 'discussion' groups. how much of the info given over the internet applies to reality?


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## mark williams (Jan 19, 2003)

Dave:The worms that I found in the cocoon's (post above)didn't even have any frames in them .
They was built on the side's of the box's,& was still alive.Mark


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## chemistbert (Mar 4, 2004)

I was merely stating an observation. I have no actual opinion on the matter. My guess is fresh moths got in each year. But we cleaned the trailer out first thing in the spring so some of them had to overwinter.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

All states of the greater wax moth are killed at:
Temp............Hours
-----------.....----
20°F (-7°C)......4.5
10°F (-12°C)....3.0


Guess this cold winter is useful for something afterall :' )


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

Here is someothign that has been bothering me. Lets say you take a carniolan hive that goes into winter in great condition. These tend to have a smaller winter cluster and certainly do not cover much of the frame space in the hive. They remain in cluster until outside reaches about 50 degrees. If the wax moths are still active below that temperature, why do you not find your hive decimated by spring? In winter there are plenty strings of 35-45 degree days (at least where I live!) and very few above 50 until about March. Even in March the hive is just starting to build up again and I don't see how the bees can protect two full deeps from the moths. Any insights on this?

Thanks,
Kai


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It's pretty much only warm where the cluster itself is and they CAN protect that. Some wax worms survive the winter in a hive, but not enough to cause any significant harm. I have the ferals who overwinter on an even smaller cluster than the Carni's and haven't ahd a problem.

But then I don't live in MD.


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

Nobody's perfect, MB!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have BEEN to Maryland. The Chesapeake bay was awesome.


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

Unfortunately, I have never been to Nebraska. I hear it is very nice there too. And definately it is far better than MD for beekeeping...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Rumor is MD is the worst place on the planet for bees except for the Antartic. I can't see why, though.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Rumor is MD is the worst place on the planet 
> for bees except for the Antartic.

Rumor ALSO is that any person blindfolded
and taken to Nebraska in winter would think
he was in the Antarctic!









I've been to SAC in Omaha in February.
Once.

Never again, no matter how much money they
are paying. To fly from Pensacola NAS to
Omaha in Feb is to go from the tropics to
the deep freeze.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Well, it's Febrauary now and yesterday it was 65, sunny and calm. I assume it was colder the day you were here?


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## Luke (Sep 8, 2003)

I just finished cutting out all of the combs from one of my hives that died this year. (I am replacing it with 4.9mm foundation) I found many wax moth larvae in the groove of the top bar. They were quite large but all of them were dead.


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

The problem with beekeeing in MD is that the nectar flow is so short. Basically, from about April 1 to Jun 15th is all you get. There might be some fall aster or goldenrod, but even that only lasts for about 3 or 4 weeks. Still, the experts around here can get about 100 lbs per hive if they do things right. I just started last spring, so this will be my first spring actually getting out any honey. I'll report back and let you know how I do. I just checked my hives and they are in great shape. Now, I just have to prevent swarming and I should have a bumper crop. 

Kai


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've never understood why the MD nectar flow is so short. It's not like it's a cold climate, or a dry climate.

>I found many wax moth larvae in the groove of the top bar.

I find a lot in the top and bottom grooves. I often wonder if the grooves are a smart thing.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

Here's a new puzzle









Just removed a sticky-board. The "pellets" (40-50) are now ONLY at hive entrance. They are somewhat smaller in size, and within an area about 1/2 x 2" DIRECTLY under hive entrance.


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