# Can someone tell me about this frame?



## quattro (Oct 2, 2014)

I am entering my second year with a hive that I want to get some honey out of this year. I opened it up do some checkerboarding and I found this frame. It looked really odd to me and was not like the others. Can you tell me if those are queen cells? They had a smooth exterior. If they are, do you think it is too late and I need to split this hive?

Thanks for any advice.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Bad news I am afraid. All the larvae in your pic are drone larvae, in worker cells. Drone larvae come from unfertilised eggs. Which means one of two things, either your queen has run out of stored sperm and can now only lay unfertilised eggs, or, the queen is dead and worker bees have started to lay eggs, a phenomena known as laying workers. Laying workers can only lay unfertilised eggs so the larvae become drones.

The queen cell is because in a last ditch attempt at survival the bees turn a brood cell into a queen cell. But it will contain a drone larva and will die at around capping time.

The solution is to get a good queen into the hive but you cannot just buy one and put it in as most likely the bees will kill it. First you need to determine if you have a drone laying queen, or laying workers. The way to tell is that if you have a drone laying queen the eggs will be layed normally, one to a cell, in the bottom middle. If you have laying workers there will be many eggs in some of the cells as the workers do not know to stop at one per cell. The eggs will also not all be on the bottom middle of the cell.

Once you have determined if you have a drone laying queen, or laying workers, please let's know so we can tell you what to do next. Some more pics would be good also, showing how many bees left in the hive.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I agree with Oldtimer.


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## quattro (Oct 2, 2014)

Thanks for the info. The hive seems to have lots of bees. There are a ton of drones though. I have a deep, with 3 supers and they seem pretty full of bees. Still a lot of honey left. I will pull it apart this afternoon and take lots of pictures.

The problem I have around here, is that no one seems to have an available queen to sell me.

Thanks again for your help!


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## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

ayuh. had one last year I had to just shake out on the ground after several tries of getting them queenright.


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## AugustC (Aug 7, 2013)

if you can donate a combs worth or eggs and young larva a week for three weeks you give the hive a really good chance of raising a new queen. This does of course require that you have at least one other hive able to donate the comb.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

quattro said:


> I am entering my second year with a hive that I want to get some honey out of this year. I opened it up do some checkerboarding and I found this frame. It looked really odd to me and was not like the others. Can you tell me if those are queen cells? They had a smooth exterior. If they are, do you think it is too late and I need to split this hive?
> 
> Thanks for any advice.


You may be better off that previous advice or not. You said this comb was not like the others and that you were going in to checkerboard. Leads me to believe this is an otherwise good hive. Every now and again I have a queen that lays drone brood in a "Worker comb" or two. She still has lots of worker laying capacity, she just wants some drone and space is not available elsewhere (bottoms of frames, etc.) 

So, if your other frames look normal and there is not more than one to three of these type frames, you may be fine. The key is to see if you have freshly capped worker brood in decent quantities. If so, you are probably okay. I would not writer her off yet. In any event, they may be building queen cells from worker brood on other frames if she is indeed failing. This is not a swarm attempt. This looks more to me like typical drone laying because they want some drones. it is not whole frames of drone. when I have had drone layer or laying workers, it has been pretty much full combs of drone brood, not isolated to the bottom half of a frame. I would not do anything drastic at this point unless there is no capped worker brood.


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## quattro (Oct 2, 2014)

My memory is so bad, but it seems like there were many frames of just normal brood, but I freaked so much when I saw this one, I have sort of forgotten. I will do a more relaxed inspection today and report back with pictures. Thanks to everyone for your help!!!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

That one queencell looks active. It's not uncommon for them to build cells in funky comb like that pictured in the middle of drone brood. I'd be looking for more cells and see if they have royal jelly or eggs in them and thinking they're getting ready to hit the trees.


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

Oldtimer said:


> Once you have determined if you have a drone laying queen, or laying workers


THAT is the key. Do all you can to figure out what that frame means, then act accordingly, to your best guess, and be confident in what you do, even if it ends up being wrong, because you will learn.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

While I would watch carefully for swarm queen cells, if you have multiple frames of nice worker brood with eggs, I would not worry too much. Some of my bees make the round queen cups for a hobby, never putting any thing in them.
That said, I agree with post #9
Good luck ... CE


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

Show me a picture of this "normal" brood and I may quit being in total agreement with old timer. You have a drone layer it appears to me too. Combining this hive would be my first choice after killing the queen and flattening all those drone brood cells.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

quattro said:


> The problem I have around here, is that no one seems to have an available queen to sell me.


But if you find one don't buy it yet cos if you try to requeen this hive in the normal way the bees will almost certainly kill the new queen.

You have to first determine if you have laying workers or a drone laying queen, then ASK HERE about what to do before you do it.

And we need pics showing how many bees are left in the hive, plus info re if you have other hives, or friends with hives. Plus if you think there is good brood in the hive (which I doubt) please show a pic to confirm.


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## quattro (Oct 2, 2014)

Ok - went by there today. My memory was fuzzy. There was some normal covered cells, but there were more drone cells than the regular. They are pulling wax, stuffing pollen and somehow the nectar seems to be flowing, with lots of cells being filled with it. The deep frames did not have much, if any brood at all. The bees seemed to be filling with nectar. I have attached pictures in order from top box to bottom.

Thanks again for your advice!


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## quattro (Oct 2, 2014)

more


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## quattro (Oct 2, 2014)

Two more pics - never saw the queen, but I did not pull all the frames - smelled like a banana skittles factory and lots of bumping going on.


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## quattro (Oct 2, 2014)

accidentally put in a couple duplicates. Here are close-ups of what are probably queen cells


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

just a matter of time before hive beetles take over. maybe ya can find a swarm pretty soon.


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## Norcalkyle (Apr 23, 2015)

When was the last time you were in the hive prior to this week? Any chance you could have accidentally killed the queen earlier in the year and the new queen never got mated because there were no drones around?


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## quattro (Oct 2, 2014)

I have two other hives, so maybe I could combine? If I can find a queen, could I introduce her? It is possible I killed the queen, but it would have been in the last two weeks, or last year. Plus, I have a package ordered, could I combine some of them?

For information sake, what is it you see?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Well you do have some normal worker looking brood there so I was wrong in my initial diagnosis, or might have been wrong. What's puzzling is your first pic showing patchy drone brood in worker cells. I've only ever seen that when a queen is failing, has fully failed, or there are laying workers. It could also be that you had a failing queen but the bees have been able to make a supersedure so a good one is in there also, that does happen sometimes.

In among the normal looking brood are scattered drone larvae but I don't know if that is because of the state of your comb.


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## quattro (Oct 2, 2014)

Another thing I saw was they were drawing new wax, but with large cells. Could I try to re-queen? What do you think my best option is?


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

Maybe my screen isn't that good, but I didn't see much in the way of worker brood.
Look carefully in the bottom of the cells, if the eggs don't look right, treat it as a laying worker hive.

If all the cells have only one egg, & they are positioned as they are in your other hives, your queen has probably just failed.
I am a risk taker, I would probably make a couple of splits, & feed them each a frame of worker brood with fresh eggs .
If you see your queen, grab her & put her in a nuc with just enough bees & stores to keep her alive, or go ahead & make swarm bait out of her.
You might could do a newspaper combine, but the last one I did (for a queen intro), I managed to mess up some how, ended with a queen right hive, but seemed like a lot of dead bees.
These were my "bad bees" they would go into endless rounds of supercedure even their own daughter queens 
Good luck with your bees. CE


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

quattro said:


> I have two other hives, so maybe I could combine? If I can find a queen, could I introduce her? It is possible I killed the queen, but it would have been in the last two weeks, or last year. Plus, I have a package ordered, could I combine some of them?
> 
> For information sake, what is it you see?


i still think you are jumping the gun. Even if your queen is starting to fail, she is laying enough worker brood for them to requeen. There may be no issue here. I would give them some time and see how it plays out. They are not laying worker,


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## quattro (Oct 2, 2014)

jbeshearse said:


> i still think you are jumping the gun. Even if your queen is starting to fail, she is laying enough worker brood for them to requeen. There may be no issue here. I would give them some time and see how it plays out. They are not laying worker,


Those little queen cells did look like they had royal jelly in them. How long would you wait? Do you think those were queen cells? They had smooth walls. I did not see any open worker cells. What would happen if I tried to put a queen in there? Would they kill her if they are trying to make a queen? I have so much to learn....


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

quattro said:


> Those little queen cells did look like they had royal jelly in them. How long would you wait? Do you think those were queen cells? They had smooth walls. I did not see any open worker cells. What would happen if I tried to put a queen in there? Would they kill her if they are trying to make a queen? I have so much to learn....


if you are to add a queen then you need to insure the existing queen is no longer in the hive. Then destroy all the queen cells. Personally, I would just see if they successfully requeen. I went through two of my hives today that pretty much match what you are seeing. Drone brood in worker frames and three to five queen cells either capped or open with larva. I will let them supersede. Letting the local genetics prevail.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

May I suggest running a couple of nucs to pull resouces from in the future? It has saved my butt a few times over the years.


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## quattro (Oct 2, 2014)

jbeshearse said:


> if you are to add a queen then you need to insure the existing queen is no longer in the hive. Then destroy all the queen cells. Personally, I would just see if they successfully requeen. I went through two of my hives today that pretty much match what you are seeing. Drone brood in worker frames and three to five queen cells either capped or open with larva. I will let them supersede. Letting the local genetics prevail.


"May I suggest running a couple of nucs to pull resouces from in the future? It has saved my butt a few times over the years."


Ok - I will leave it and see what they do. I have the equipment and was planning to start a nuc this year. How would you handle this circumstance with a nuc?

Thanks for all the advice!


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

What about putting in a frame containing young larva and see what they do with it?


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## StacieM (Dec 13, 2012)

You say you have another hive? If so, stick in a frame of eggs from the other hive. If they are queenless they will have resources to requeen.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

About that frame. It has some queen cells on it. 
Impossible to say much else about a colony just by looking at one frame. Could make some guesses. 
Any eggs?
Any larva?
Capped worker brood?
Queen?


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I vote drone layer, get a frame of eggs in there pronto.

Way too much drone brood with little worker brood, she's on the way out, time to give them both a boost of worker brood (from the eggs and young larvae they don't make queen cells with) and a good chance at a new queen.

If they make queen cells on the frame of eggs, cut out the other queen cells, they very likely contain drones. If they don't, they have a viable queen larvae and all will be well after she mates.

Peter


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## Zib (Mar 31, 2012)

quattro said:


> more
> View attachment 23434


Does it look like there is a queen cell that they are breaking down here with a larva/jelly in or it just me?

I would move a frame from another hive over with new eggs that are standing up in the bottom of the comb and see what they do?!?


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## quattro (Oct 2, 2014)

Okay - this what I did. Tell me what you think.

I took a frame of brood from another hive and stuck it in there. 

When I was placing this frame in, I saw so many bees, I figured this must be an opportunity. So, I pulled two frames (with no queen cells on them, but covered with bees), and a shake or two and put them in a nuc box I had laying around. Let it sit for one day, and put a queen in it.

Now I am going to wait for about 10 days before I remove the queen cage from the nuc and maybe 20 days? before I open up the original box?

It is a pretty Spring day here and the activity around both boxes is more than I ever saw last year.

Thanks for all the help. I would appreciate any advice.


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

jbeshearse said:


> i still think you are jumping the gun. Even if your queen is starting to fail, she is laying enough worker brood for them to requeen. There may be no issue here. I would give them some time and see how it plays out. They are not laying worker,


I agree with jbeshearse. Based on the photographs presented I think it is a queen who is already failing, and the bees are trying to make the supersedure from the fertilised eggs that she is laying.


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