# Michael Palmer's method with medium nucs?



## johnbeejohn (Jun 30, 2013)

if i was to run medium i would build them up to 4 mediums high


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

My 4x3 mediums do well here in IL even as a stand alone and not in a divided box


----------



## WI_bee (Oct 4, 2016)

Harley Craig said:


> My 4x3 mediums do well here in IL even as a stand alone and not in a divided box


Thanks! How far south in IL are you? I'm zone 4b.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

WI_bee said:


> Thanks! How far south in IL are you? I'm zone 4b.


Zone 5. E central right off I70 bout 30 min from IN border

This is how I winterize, you can see the blue stand alone in the back there that is 4x3 medium. https://youtu.be/q6usJzKKWkE


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

WI_bee said:


> Is the same "magic" experienced with single 8 frame mediums or triple or quadruple 4 frame medium nucs? Thanks.


Nothing magical about it. And, I've wintered in one medium, and 2 and 3 and 4. They just have to be packed with young bees and honey. I've always placed the single mediums on top of the inner cover on a strong colony.


----------



## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> Nothing magical about it. And, I've wintered in one medium, and 2 and 3 and 4. They just have to be packed with young bees and honey. I've always placed the single mediums on top of the inner cover on a strong colony.


is that one 4-frame medium? i have side-by-side 4-frame mediums that i am torn between combining or leaving them separate to see how they do...


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Is anyone successfully using Michael Palmer's method for overwintering nucs while using medium frames instead of deeps? 

I overwinter nucs in eight frame mediums usually, but I have done it in two five frame medium nuc boxes stacked. Ideally I like to have two eight frame medium boxes of bees and honey but I often overwinter them in one if they aren't that strong.


----------



## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

Yes, you can overwinter medium nuc's. 

The key to beekeeping for me is to propagate, propagate, propagate. . Nuc's seem to overwinter very well; are a sustainable resource to help solve lots of problems in other hives, and could be a financial resource also.

After reading "On the Spot Queen Rearing" and especially after watching Michael Palmer's lectures at the National Honey Show (see Youtube or the National Honey Show web site) I started overwintering 4 frame nucs but I now use 5 frame Nuc's and they are all medium frames -- just to be clear, I make my own Nuc boxes to hold 5 frames - each holds five frames and I try and stack them 3 boxes high. I make them up in late July to early August, about half are with bought queens the others raised their own, and then feed them heavily in September and October. 

I prefer to have free standing Nuc's and not he "duplex" type as the duplex only held 4 frames each and the boxes/supers you use are harder to manipulate. I would rather just push two 5 frame Nuc's together if I want to try and share heat from each hive. 

These Nuc's tend to over winter quite well - and I am beginning to think smaller hives overwinter better than larger hives, and they really take off quickly in the spring.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

orthoman said:


> I prefer to have free standing Nuc's and not he "duplex" type as the duplex only held 4 frames each and the boxes/supers you use are harder to manipulate. I would rather just push two 5 frame Nuc's together if I want to try and share heat from each hive.
> 
> These Nuc's tend to over winter quite well - and I am beginning to think smaller hives overwinter better than larger hives, and they really take off quickly in the spring.





i prefer the singles as well and after this winter will probably go back to doing them in single stacks


----------



## jvalentour (Sep 4, 2014)

When I run medium nucs I use five frame boxes stacked three high. 
Nucs are started in July and fed through October. Light hives are supplemented from surplus of other hives/nucs.
As insurance I put solid sugar blocks in a shim, slide the nucs side by side and insulate with one inch insulation board.


----------



## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

My five frame medium nucs will generally be 4-5 tall to over winter. Come early spring (when I see drones) they get split into five frame nucs. Once the new queen starts laying well they get sold. I usually sell about 30 every spring. All are overwintered feral mutts and are busting at the seams come mid May.
I gave one to a buddy of mine last spring (May) and it grew to four ten frame mediums in two months. It had to be split four times and was still busting at the seams come Sept.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

In zone 6a with 5 frame boxes. They overwinter fine in 2 boxes but I like to get them in 3 so I can get more food onto them. I have some in 4 boxes. I had the most prolific one swarm on me even though it was in 3 boxes and I was taking out brood on a weekly basis. Shoulda added a box to them instead of trying to hold em to 3. I use a Palmer style divided box for the first level. The benefit of this is stability. I'm experimenting with just a divided bottom board that I put 5 frame boxes on. 

I do have a couple of questions for Michael. I am feeding till the nucs have lots of uncapped food in the bottom box with some capped. I don't see much brood anymore. Is this too much re clustering space? Also what zone are you in? Just trying gauge what you do relative to my location. Finally, at what temps do you stop feeding?


----------



## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

I kind of limit it to 3 of the 5 frame Nuc boxes stacked up. Anymore than that, I don't think there is any advantage and I might as well use full size equipment


----------



## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

WI_bee said:


> Is anyone successfully using Michael Palmer's method for overwintering nucs while using medium frames instead of deeps? If so, with what configuration? For instance, it sounds like MP is having best success with 4 over 4 duplex deep nucs. Is the same "magic" experienced with single 8 frame mediums or triple or quadruple 4 frame medium nucs? Thanks.


I wintered between 60 and 110 double medium 5 frame nucs for 6 years with very low losses, typically 3 to 8%. This year I will go into winter with 110 but 75% of them are in triples, only because I built more equipment again and I culled more queens than usual. They'll winter in either configuration. I'm not as cold here as you are.


----------



## nchvac (Sep 5, 2015)

On these stacked 5 frame nucs, have any of you used this stacking method for honey production or comb honey production?


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

lharder said:


> I do have a couple of questions for Michael. I am feeding till the nucs have lots of uncapped food in the bottom box with some capped. I don't see much brood anymore. Is this too much re clustering space? Also what zone are you in? Just trying gauge what you do relative to my location. Finally, at what temps do you stop feeding?


Sorry, just saw this.

But still have some empty comb space? They'll use up the uncapped food first, creating cluster space. I'm between 3b and 4. I feed before the temps drop. First gallon goes on in late September and the second, if they need it about the first of October. We had to feed a bit late this heart because of the drought and dearth of nectar...nucs needed three gallons and the last was fed out about October 10th.


----------



## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

nchvac said:


> On these stacked 5 frame nucs, have any of you used this stacking method for honey production or comb honey production?


Sure, but large colonies are MUCH more efficient at foraging. In a good year, if I make my splits (nucs) during or before the main flow, they may not need feeding in the fall. I don't think you can call that honey production, at least not for the beekeeper. Although I like it when I don't have to go through the work of feeding all the nucs.

A healthy nuc will draw comb really well.


----------



## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

Michael Palmer said:


> Nothing magical about it. And, I've wintered in one medium, and 2 and 3 and 4. They just have to be packed with young bees and honey. I've always placed the single mediums on top of the inner cover on a strong colony.


do you sealoff or screen off the opening in the inner cover if one exists?

I bought what Brushy Mt. calls a resoirce hive that is an optionally divided deep, on a front and back staggered separated bottom board, then there are two 4 frame deep nuc boxes with nuc inner covers under and over them. I am expected to add a telescoping cover. the idea is to have 2- 4over 4 or 4- 4 frame nucs, or queen boxes.

Do people typically leave these inner cover holes (oval) open between nucs? 

If so what prevents a queen from being offed?


----------



## Clayton Huestis (Jan 6, 2013)

MP because of the dearth we had this fall when do you think the fondant should be put on the hives? Thinking maybe a week or so first week of March perhaps?


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

When they need it


----------



## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I seal off the inner cover escape hole...no contact between colony and Nuc


----------



## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

In the "better late than never" crowd 

I tried just about every configuration of medium nucs last winter. The closest to the MP "duplex" approach was as described in #19, above. Running MLPF's, a plastic frame was shimmed to create the divider board in the bottom box. This gave each side the equivalent of 5 medium frames when the outside gap was filled with a custom trimmed "half frame". Everything was geared towards fitting standard beehive dimensions. Last spring the bees found a way though a tiny gap inn one of the spring nuc bases, & eliminated the queen on one side. Bear this in mind. That gap was barely over 1/8".








Upper boxes were treated similarly other than the necessary solid divider. The half frame is moved to the inside, giving 4 & 1/2 medium frames of comb in the stack on boxes.








Michael mentions the "4 over 4" deep configuration he typically uses. 8 deep frames equals 12 mediums. The above configuration allows 14 medium frames in a "three high" set up. 

Having seen it work once, all of my nucs are in (medium) MP duplexes this winter with no losses thus far. We're in zone 4b. The "2 highs" would have perished last winter if not for supplemental spring sugar bricks. 3 high duplexes seem to be the ticket here. Those (upper) half width boxes can also be stacked on like regular supers during the normal flows and then easily redistributed to "light" nucs headed into the winter.

Many thanks, Michael!


----------



## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

Glad to know that hole gets sealed. Leaving it open would go against of what I thought I knew to date. I was worried there was a whole new layer of subtleties I would have to master before attempting to raise nucs.


----------



## Peter Montague (Feb 23, 2016)

With the outer cover on, they cannot get to each other, If your inspecting and need to stack one box from one side on the inner cover of the other side, then you must cover it. MP uses duct tape, I keep a scrap of 1/8 masonite in my kit to put there temporarally.


----------



## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

Peter Montague said:


> With the outer cover on, they cannot get to each other, If your inspecting and need to stack one box from one side on the inner cover of the other side, then you must cover it. MP uses duct tape, I keep a scrap of 1/8 masonite in my kit to put there temporarally.


Mr. Palmer had said
quote

Nothing magical about it. And, I've wintered in one medium, and 2 and 3 and 4. They just have to be packed with young bees and honey. I've always placed the single mediums on top of the inner cover on a strong colony. 

end quote

For this reason I was inquiring about the hole in the inner cover. It seemed he was leaving them there longer than just the inspection.

It made since to do so, and it seemed my new resource hives are also meant to be used such that one colony is on top of the inner cover of that under it. I was just double checking that opening in the inner cover.

I look forward to making splits again this year and having more flexible wood ware to accommodate them as they expand or not. I saw for the first, this last season, how moths and beetles can come into the picture if a colony is too week for its space. My biggest concern is having some extra queens on hand as well as a few frames of brood to keep my yard up to the goal number of hives without buying bees.


----------

