# Throwing in the towel......



## Skunkape71 (Oct 14, 2014)

On treatment-Free. Sounded like a great idea, and one I have hoped to maintain. Varroa have beat me down, my bees down, and my wallet down. I'm new to the game, going on year 3 of beekeeping.. Guess I'm kinda hard headed about things being idealistic vs. realistic.

Ordered the Varrox today; Time to make a stand against those SOB's!


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

I thought this was going to preface another shop towel thread.


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## Gazelle (May 17, 2015)

Hats off for trying!


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## Spur9 (Sep 13, 2016)

Skunkape71 said:


> Sounded like a great idea, and one I have hoped to maintain. Varroa have beat me down and my wallet down. Guess I'm kinda hard headed about things being idealistic vs. realistic.


Sounds like my wife. Replace "Varroa" with her name. Just 1 day after cupid day too


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Nordak said:


> I thought this was going to preface another shop towel thread.


It probably will now. Hehehe


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

Spur9 said:


> Sounds like my wife. Replace "Varroa" with her name. Just 1 day after cupid day too


No, I know he did not just said that!


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

For reference, have you read Mel Disselkoen's description of his integrated pest management practices for increase of his colonies while avoiding direct chemical treatments? Seemed interesting to me.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

Please, don't treat for no reason. The treating beeks out their don't need more resistance.

Personally, I've had great luck with Randy Oliver's drone frames.
You just got to get out ahead of the bees. But to each his own. good luck.


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## kramerbryan (Oct 30, 2013)

Welcome to the dark side. Vaper for life.


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## Tenbears (May 15, 2012)

Too often people go into treatment free the wrong way. Starting out a s a bee keeper, and trying to do it treatment free make the process doubly hard. Ioften advise beginners to first learn how to take care of bees then learn how to do it in a more natural manner. should that be your goals. In order to keep bees treatment free one must start with bees that have a propensity to be hygienic if not proven hygienic. You just cannot turn a ****tail waitress into a coal miner!


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

:thumbsup:


Tenbears said:


> Too often people go into treatment free the wrong way. Starting out a s a bee keeper, and trying to do it treatment free make the process doubly hard. Ioften advise beginners to first learn how to take care of bees then learn how to do it in a more natural manner. should that be your goals. In order to keep bees treatment free one must start with bees that have a propensity to be hygienic if not proven hygienic. You just cannot turn a ****tail waitress into a coal miner!


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## Michael Johnston (Nov 25, 2007)

What bees did you start with? If the stock of bees was never selected for survival, then the odds would be against success. I've been mainly treatment free since 2003. At this point, I think that treating my bees would do more harm than not treating. Of course, every winter up here is a gamble. If I were to lose 75% of my bees, I would still be able to recover my numbers by the end of June. That kind of loss would put a big hit on my nuc sales. When varroa first came through here in 1993, it was not unusual hear about 100% losses even with apistan treatment. Ultimately, as Randy Oliver now admits, the solution to varroa is breeding for resistance. All of this treating without selecting for resistance is breeding tougher and tougher mites.


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## D Coates (Jan 6, 2006)

Welcome to the "dark side." I too liked the idea of treatment free when I started. Who doesn't? About the time (year 4-5) when I lost the bulk of my hives (14 out of 15) is when I realized I needed to get serious or get out. I upped my game. Treat (Apivar) and feed in the Fall and don't nurse dinks into winter. Yes, it costs me $20-$25 per hive to do this but it beats dead outs and the cost of replacing them ($125-$150). 

Currently I've got all the hives I went into winter with (32) as well as the 14 nucs already gathering pollen. Will I lose some before Spring really kicks in? I kinda hope so. My nucs were to replace any failed hives (3 dinks I let die in the Fall and any winter die offs) and to use for next years build up. I've got waaay too many nucs at this point.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Welcome to the club! When I started all I heard was that they will be fine the first year, then the varroa will start multiplying and they will die in the second year. That was a big lie. They all died in the first December each of the first two years. Once I started vaporizing in year 3, the survival rates skyrocketed. The cost of the vaporizer paid for itself in that first year I used it.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

tenbears
First and foremost let me say that I know I am a dummy and that you have 49 more years of bee experiance then me.



> Too often people go into treatment free the wrong way. Starting out a s a bee keeper, and trying to do it treatment free make the process doubly hard. Ioften advise beginners to first learn how to take care of bees then learn how to do it in a more natural manner. should that be your goals. In order to keep bees treatment free one must start with bees that have a propensity to be hygienic if not proven hygienic. You just cannot turn a ****tail waitress into a coal miner!


The problim with this approach is that once the bee keeper finds what works he usually stops. They wake up one day and see that every hive survived winter and say to them selves I am doing things right. There is no incentive to improve if you have profection. There is no incentive to start withdrawing treatments to see where the tipping point might be. It is hard to argue with success. They may be doing things that they could get by with out but there is no reason to check it cause what they are doing is working. I am starting with no treatment and the expectation that I will probly lose my bees. I plan on making a split or two so I have a hive or two that at least had a broodless period but over all not treating yet. I am not against treating but just want to see for myself even knowing that pain might be involved. I know myself well enough that when I start having success, I will probly stay at that point. That point might be a point that involves treating. But when that happens, I will know that in my area with the bees I am using, the treating is a needed thing.

I am not sure that very many people revert back to not treating after they find they can keep bees alive by treating. I am pretty sure that those who tried to not treat and got lots of pain from it and then got less pain from treating will probly treat forever because it is a learned responce built on hard knocks.

Cheers
gww

Ps I am not a pureist where it comes to treating or not but more of a really lazy guy that if I can keep bees alive with out treating, it seems like the easiest thing to do.


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## scorpionmain (Apr 17, 2012)

I went through the same thing when I started.
Fell hook, line, & sinker for the TF garbage.
Cost me lots of money & I killed lots of bees.
Welcome, to the sensible side and now that you have seen the light you will notice a marked difference in your colonies.
When I was TF I never had much of a honey crop, the number of bees per hive was lower, just over all crappy hives. I had no ideal at the time what a truly healthy hive looked like and could do.
Since I began to take mites serious I have had great success.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I run into people who have done both at first and end up at the other last and are happier. In other words, people who treated, lost all their bees and quit treating and are doing well. And people who did not treat, lost all their bees and started treating and are doing well. It may be they just learned to be better beekeepers... Experience sometimes has that effect as well as sometimes misleading us as to the cause...


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

To be TF you need a long game plan, expect disappointment but not let it deter you. Some areas are not suitable for TF if too many big operations are around. 

However, one is not taking mites seriously unless serious selection for mite/virus resistance is taking place as Oliver suggests, treating or TF. 

Also with regard to learning how to take care of bees first before going TF? In most cases the training wheels are never taken off. The approach and outlook is completely different. Not much to be gained. What is needed is a fairly solid scientific understanding of why TF keepers are doing what they are doing and the pitfalls along the way. With this understanding, missteps along the way are put in proper perspective. So if one's understanding is shaky, then its easy to change course when meeting adversity.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

gww said:


> The problim with this approach is that once the bee keeper finds what works he usually stops. They wake up one day and see that every hive survived winter and say to them selves I am doing things right. There is no incentive to improve if you have profection. There is no incentive to start withdrawing treatments to see where the tipping point might be. It is hard to argue with success. They may be doing things that they could get by with out but there is no reason to check it cause what they are doing is working.


This is not my experience nor the experience of other successful beekeepers I have communicated with.
Keeping bees successfully is not stagnant. Nothing stays the same because of all of the variables. It is ever evolving and fluid. 
Those who do not adapt to the changes are no longer successful beekeepers. No method or set of methods has worked forever. 
The continuous learning of bees and their environment, and adaptation of beekeeping methods by beekeepers is a given in order to be successful, don't and you are done and out.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

D Coates said:


> Currently I've got all the hives I went into winter with (32) as well as the 14 nucs already gathering pollen. Will I lose some before Spring really kicks in? I kinda hope so. My nucs were to replace any failed hives (3 dinks I let die in the Fall and any winter die offs) and to use for next years build up. I've got waaay too many nucs at this point.


Good story! Must be a great feeling having been accustomed to high losses and maybe even thinking that's normal, then moving to having so many spare nucs that now YOU could choose to be the guy selling bees instead of shelling out money.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Clyderoad


> This is not my experience nor the experience of other successful beekeepers I have communicated with.
> Keeping bees successfully is not stagnant. Nothing stays the same because of all of the variables. It is ever evolving and fluid.
> Those who do not adapt to the changes are no longer successful beekeepers. No method or set of methods has worked forever.
> The continuous learning of bees and their environment, and adaptation of beekeeping methods by beekeepers is a given in order to be successful, don't and you are done and out.


I am much too new to argue the point. After I get a few years under my belt, I will know more of what I am talking about. I also do not have a wide circle of friends to have watched and seen what successful bee people do. I know one beekeeper and have only known him for two years. He has been at it for about 20 years and I am sure has had his ups and downs. My instinct is that he has learned alot about bees but on the treatment thing has not changed much. He keeps 7 through 10 hives and this gives him enough to replace any dead outs and have a few to sell and keep one or two for honey production. I doubt he is doing much differrent. I look at enjambers post and see that she has never lost a hive and does promote treatment and insulating and points to her track record of success. I sure can not argue with success but my guess is she probly is not that interested in takeing any chance that may make her bees suffer unneededly.

I would say the guys that were using amtriz or whatever it is called that the mites got resitant to, had no choice but to change if they wanted to stay successful with thier beekeeping practices.

I would say that most of the guys who got really big got thier treatment streamligned and now do it priod and not always just based on mite counts. I say when you get to hired help that the changability is more depressed cause you have to have some kind of system that is understandable to those who work for you. 

I am not saying that most are not looking for improvement in what they are doing but more, if they have found a way to expand and make money and have as streamligned of a work load as possible, they are probly not going to take too much risk trying things that don't work. I looked at the post where micheal palmer had 20 hives that got left behind unattended and had 16 of them die. Not a real good reason to take a chance on changing your practices that are working.

I am very doubtful that if you start out treating and have great success and your goal is to make the bees pay for themselves that you are going to do much expermenting. That doesn't mean you don't watch what others are doing and if one experment is proven and stands out from the croud that you don't take a chance on it. 

I would say that success stifels change. Bees dieing make for change.

So I am going to see if I kill some bees before I start treating and then I am going to change (if needed) till I get it right and then I bet I get lazyer then I am and just make bees and honey.

I wouldn't even try it if I didn't know someone else doing it.


I stand by my belief that if someone starts bee keeping with treatments and all his bees keep living that he is probly not going to stop treating.

Now if like micheal B said and someone is treating and his bees are dieing, He may try no treatment.
Cheers

Ps, Myself, I don't want to be beeless but I also am really not buying the bees that I am playing with. I did buy one hive but have made everything else and caught the bees and so am going to take a chance even though I might lose what I now have. So I also say that it depends on how much money you have in stuff to how you might want to start out keeping bees.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

The TF crowd here buys quite a few packages of bees every spring. That's a fraction of what was delivered.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

OK gww.
A simple way to see how much and how quickly beekeepers have to alter their once successful methods is to ask them. Ask your local guy how he kept his bees 20 yrs ago, what he treated with if he treated at all back then. Compare that to what he does now.
MPalmer is another to ask, JLyon, Tenbears, Roland, Sqkcrk and many others on here. Ask how they have come to be good beekeepers for 30, 40, 50 or 60? years, what they do now compared to years ago and why. Then ask what they have had to change in the last 5 years and why. 
You won't find one that has been able to rest on his laurels.

Might even make a good thread in the 'history of beekeeping' section.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

gww, for someone who says they are too new to argue you are surely giving it a good shot anyways!

I think I have to agree with Clyderoad's thoughts that most beekeepers will be always experimenting to some extent. There may be some who are not into trying new things but anyone with internet or an active imagination just has to have their curiosity piqued by the very many possibilities with beekeeping. Just think of all the notions you have entertained but not had time to try.

Having sawed your own logs and built all your equipement, I dont think you have to worry too much about getting lazy.

:thumbsup:


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Clyderoad
I try and not bug the guy I know too much because I don't want to wear out my welcome. I had him come over right before winter and look at my hives to see if I might need to combine rather then winter individually. It is a reasource that I want to keep. I just know that he is not treating now. It is why I am willing to try it till I have a couple dead outs. Then I will do an autopsy and try and see how much frass and holes in brood caps and such. Then I will decide what to do next. I do try to watch what all the guys you mentioned are doing and writing. I have watched many of their vidios.

The guy I am talking about is the guy I got my one bought hive from and he does not treat and so I am going to not treat starting out.

I am not smart enough to advise anyone to do what I am going to do. I do think that if it works, I will not treat untill it doesn't work. I might even think it is working if I get big losses if I am after all the counting still ending up with more then I start with.

I do believe if I started out treating a certain way that if nothing was dieing, I would not change.

But make no mistake, I am not against change, expesially for the better. I am too dumb to know better from worse right now. The only reason I highlighted tenbears comment was his postition that it is just too hard to start bees and be treatment free also in the beginning. I was just saying in my mind that by doing that, you don't know if treatment free would have worked and you probly won't find out if you do well treating. I caught 3 swarms this year. I had no referance of what to expect. I do not know the flows, the speed of build up yada yada yada. I went into winter with sub par hives for my area because I did not feed the swarms till the very end. Why did I do this. I did it because no matter how much you read in the end you have to see real stuff. So I let the swarms take care of themselves even knowing that they would do better if I threw a bit of food to them.

Next year if I catch a swarm, I am going to put a little feed to them while they build up.

I think it will be less risk with the feed and next year I am going to see what that differrance is.

My bees are still alive at this point but of course we still have march to get through.

So the point to all this is that my goal (not everyones) is to start at the very bottom denominator of bee keeping and then progress to see what is really needed to keep bees and add elements till it seems to be working.

There is a veiw out there of poeple keeping bees in every fassion and it is so confusing though I believe there is probly success found in more then one way.

Tenbears says it is too hard to learn both and I am saying if you learn in the hardest way then everything is an improvement going forward. A guy should not want to reinvent the wheel and have preventable problims but then agian, there is somebody out there that says it works. I am going to start low and add till it works for me.

I am so new at this that I don't know what parts I am giong to hate and what parts I am going to like. Some raise bees, some queens, some honey etc.

I am watching everything being writen and trying to put the parts I can remember to what I actually see at the hives as I go through this.  I can not say anything is right or wrong at this point of my knowlage cause I have none.

I do not dissagree with what you write, I just throw out what is on my mind to keep the conversation going even if the conversation proves me as being all screwed up. I am doing my best to learn from it all.
Cheers
gww


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## Skunkape71 (Oct 14, 2014)

Hi! OP here....

Lot of good discussion and experience in this thread. This is the reason I joined this forum... For the experience. At some point, you have to be smart enough to realize how dumb you are (pointing at myself). I have but a mere fraction of the experience that most of the folks have on this forum, but I visit quite often, and read. And gain knowledge. Starting out, I thought TF would be the way to go.. A holistic approach, of sorts. The bees can take care of themselves, just as that have for hundreds of years, right? What a fool I was. I have set on the sidelines, watching, reading, and learning. I've sit in the back of the local bee club meetings, listening to the old timers argue over who's method is best, what to do, when to do it, etc... The bickering is amusing at times, eye opening at others.

The one thing everyone seems to agree on is that mites are of a paramount concern, and how to control, and ideally eliminate them.

This is what lead me to my decision. What i was doing wasn't working. Hell, maybe I'm a terrible beekeeper... Maybe not. Coming from a scientific background, I'm quite familiar with forming a hypothesis, testing the hypothesis, and observing the results. It's come to a point I need to either get on top of this situation and deal with it head on, or get out of the game. You want to get my attention real quick? Get into my pockets. I can't afford to constantly buy packages, nucs, queens, etc. 

To those of you that practice TF beekeeping and are successful at it, I envy you. I wish I could, but that's simply not my reality. If after using treatment methods and I'm still loosing 50% or more of my colonies, I'll evaluate whether or not I have the fortitude for beekeeping...


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Crofter
I always argue but I always let everyone know how new I am so they can discount my arguement or set me strait. I get on subjects that sorta interest me and that I myself am in the middle of and then I just keep throwing shots out there untill someone gets my head on strait for me.

I have been cutting more boards and getting them stickered so thay can dry. I have used almost every one that I had. I have about 40 more boards cut and stickered over the last week or so since the weather got a little better. By next winter they will be ready though a bunch will go to waste. Nature of the beast.

I look up to you and clyde and tenbears. 
Cheers
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Skunkape
I hope it works for you. You put out the effort and you deserve to have some success, whatever rout you take. So take the route that give you success.
Cheers
gww


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

gww said:


> I know one beekeeper and have only known him for two years. He has been at it for about 20 years and I am sure has had his ups and downs. My instinct is that he has learned alot about bees but on the treatment thing has not changed much. He keeps 7 through 10 hives and this gives him enough to replace any dead outs and have a few to sell and keep one or two for honey production.


Well if this guy is essentially your mentor, is near you, has the same bees as you, and is treatment free, seems like you just do exactly what he does, and you should be able to get the same results, long as you are happy with those results.



gww said:


> Now if like micheal B said and someone is treating and his bees are dieing, He may try no treatment.


I found that a rather curious analogy by Michael. If someone is treating and all their bees are dying anyway, it is almost certainly one of two things. Either the treatment was not done right and didn't work, or, faulty beekeeping causing or allowing all the bees to die. Changing to no treatment, of itself, is not going to change any of that. Other changes would have to be made, wether going treatment free, or not.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Hey oldtimer
My take on micheals comment is the willingness to try other things cause what you are doing is not keeping bees alive where if things are working really well why do anything. Micheal did basically make the point you make when he said they may have just become better beekeepers and just be atributing thier success to the change they made in thier treatment. 

If my bees do die and I treat, I will probly try the blue towel method first even though it is still expermental even if I kill more bees doing it. They towels just seem the easiest and can be done with stuff gotten locally. Not quite homemade (which is my thing) but close. I am in an expirment mode now and taking some chances cause I don't really have referances and experiance to relie on and secondly, I do want to be successful eventually but am willing to take some risk for the learning of the thing. I am retired and so this is how I spend my time but I am not finacially tied to success or failure cause I only have time invested and so it is better for me then building a muscle car and blowing it up at the race track.

My pride does want me to eventually do well at it though, Just not in a big hurry.
Cheers
gww


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I'm TF and have paid for one nuc, and 9 queens after 3 years of beekeeping. My hive numbers coming out of winter were 6, 16 and it looks like 30 to 40 after this winter. Last year my losses were 50 % and this year will be 33 to 50 %. Some of my colonies look pretty good with strong orientation flights the first good flying weather of the season. The biggest challenge I have faced is making increase. Raising good queens and getting nucs going and built up for winter. But these are the same challenges that every new keeper faces. If you don't want to buy many bees, then learn to make increase. That is true treating or not. Besides that, there is no mystery to keeping bees TF. They are more or less kept the same as treated bees. Some use things like small cell etc, but in each case there is someone successful who doesn't use these techniques. The only real difference is that increase is made from survivors who are productive. Nature is a bigger part of the selection process. 

Granted, I think I got a bit lucky. I stumbled onto a strategy of increase, thanks to M. Palmers videos that formed the basis of what I am doing. I got some decent bees that had some resistance mechanisms. I still have the queen (and her daughters) that was given me as a swarm cell by a local keeper my first year. She has survived 3 winters and still looks strong. I think my area may be more suited to TF, off the beaten path a bit. I am doing ok even though my bees are open mated with bees around me. This next year I hope to create a situation where my best bees dominate the mating grounds. There is lots of variability in my stock. I am in the beginning of the process and there is lots of room to improve, but I'm overall happy with the progress.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Iharder
That is my next issue coming up. What to do about queens. I have three hives, one bought and three swarms combind in two hives. I don't know wether I want to take the brood off one and put it over a queen excluder and try and get several queen cells and then split the hives using them or just do walkaway splits and get a daughter from all three queens. So, one queen several daughters or 3 queens each with thier own daughter. I have not have the hives long enough to notice stand out traits of one particular hive.
Always lots of decisions to be made and no experiance to make them. Machaniclly several queen cells from one seems that it would be easier to do.
Cheers
gww


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

Michael Bush said:


> I run into people who have done both at first and end up at the other last and are happier. In other words, people who treated, lost all their bees and quit treating and are doing well. And people who did not treat, lost all their bees and started treating and are doing well. It may be they just learned to be better beekeepers... Experience sometimes has that effect as well as sometimes misleading us as to the cause...


I'm no super experienced beekeeper, but this just makes sense.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Haa, it takes you that long to finally realized that going tf without taking or killing the mites off somehow will
ALWAYS crashed your hives either in the late winter or at early Spring expansion. This is because you don't have
the resistant bees in there. After realizing this fact I stop treating and removed the mite infected frames into a nuc hive.
All hives are on their early Spring expansion mode now! An idea I have is to use I.I. process to find the resistant bees. Are you
going to stop here or continue to try different method that works?


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

Skunkape71 said:


> The bees can take care of themselves, just as that have for hundreds of years, right?


I don't know where you got that idea from. If anything, treatment free beekeeping requires more work. I'm in every one of my hives installing and culling drone comb, sugar dusting, testing, breaking the mite cycle when things go bad, and of course freaking out if I have one hive with a high mite count early summer or fall. It's called Integrated Pest Management--- IPM. 

But the real resistance, as Randy Oliver now admits, is resistant bees.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

clyderoad said:


> This is not my experience nor the experience of other successful beekeepers I have communicated with.
> Keeping bees successfully is not stagnant. Nothing stays the same because of all of the variables. It is ever evolving and fluid.
> Those who do not adapt to the changes are no longer successful beekeepers. No method or set of methods has worked forever.
> The continuous learning of bees and their environment, and adaptation of beekeeping methods by beekeepers is a given in order to be successful, don't and you are done and out.


I was going to reply to gww's initial post, but your reply expresses my thoughts exactly.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

gww said:


> Iharder
> That is my next issue coming up. What to do about queens. I have three hives, one bought and three swarms combind in two hives. I don't know wether I want to take the brood off one and put it over a queen excluder and try and get several queen cells and then split the hives using them or just do walkaway splits and get a daughter from all three queens. So, one queen several daughters or 3 queens each with thier own daughter. I have not have the hives long enough to notice stand out traits of one particular hive.
> Always lots of decisions to be made and no experiance to make them. Machaniclly several queen cells from one seems that it would be easier to do.
> Cheers
> gww


Since you have 3 and not much separates them, I would use all three. Maybe a snelgrove board would be useful for you to make vertical splits. Also useful for swarm management. They produce a couple extra queen cells that you can make nucs out of stealing brood from other hives. You don't have to split them all at once (unless forced by swarming), but one at a time to get some extra nucs going.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Learning2Bee said:


> I don't know where you got that idea from. If anything, treatment free beekeeping requires more work. I'm in every one of my hives installing and culling drone comb, sugar dusting, testing, breaking the mite cycle when things go bad, and of course freaking out if I have one hive with a high mite count early summer or fall. It's called Integrated Pest Management--- IPM.
> 
> But the real resistance, as Randy Oliver now admits, is resistant bees.


That isn't really TF. Most TF keepers don't do what you do. When it comes down to it, its as simple as propagating from what's alive and productive. Some of us are curious and monitor/test not so we can take action, but because we are curious about the solutions nature comes up with.


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## rolftonbees (Jul 10, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> I run into people who have done both at first and end up at the other last and are happier. In other words, people who treated, lost all their bees and quit treating and are doing well. And people who did not treat, lost all their bees and started treating and are doing well. It may be they just learned to be better beekeepers... Experience sometimes has that effect as well as sometimes misleading us as to the cause...


So true. I started TF, am now treating with formic acid, yet plan to make my way back to tf once I get other aspects of beekeeping mastered. This year I am concentrating on being more sustainable with nucs/splits and try raising some queens. Next years goal; I will take a few hives and go back to TF. 

It is precisely a lack of experience that has caused the detour. 

A friend in another state is killing bees being tf. Although he has experience with treatment beekeeping in the past. 

I have inspected his hives and seen the PMS and tried to point it out. He had huge mite denial syndrome, as he so wants to be TF. I was tempted to buy him MAQS as Christmas gift, but bought him your 3 paper backs instead. He also needs more experience to successfully be TF, despite coming from the other api-culture.


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## BuckeyeBeek (Apr 16, 2013)

Perhaps it depends on your own goals and objectives. To me, "Treatment Free" is more of a mindset and part of a larger worldview that has a little more to do with the bee and a little less about me. Like these bumper stickers that say "save the bees". The truth is that all the problems associated with the bee today originated from us not the bee, so if we really wanted to save the bees we'd probably just leave them alone. Sort of like the EPA being the largest contributor to water pollution; perhaps it should remind us that solutions are often the source of our problems. But the bees... they're just too cool not to play with and try to figure them out so I put them in a box and check into their living room now and then and hang out with them to see what new can be learned. Fascinating little creatures, aren't they? So... if my goal was to minimize death loss on purchased package bees or if my goals involved short-term profit by maximizing honey production or nucs then I probably wouldn't be treatment free. If one views a honeybee like farm livestock then you're probably going to come at it with different perspective vs someone who still sees benefits in having the wild type traits that support sustainability. I'm treatment free because my goal is to be treatment free. If your goals are different then that's okay.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

BuckeyeBeek said:


> Perhaps it depends on your own goals and objectives. To me, "Treatment Free" is more of a mindset and part of a larger worldview that has a little more to do with the bee and a little less about me. Like these bumper stickers that say "save the bees". The truth is that all the problems associated with the bee today originated from us not the bee, so if we really wanted to save the bees we'd probably just leave them alone. But... they're just too cool not to play with and try to figure them out so I put them in a box and check into their living room now and then and hang out with them to see what new can be learned. Fascinating little creatures, aren't they? So... if my goal was to minimize death loss on purchased package bees or if my goals involved short-term profit by maximizing honey production or nucs then I probably wouldn't be treatment free. If one views a honeybee like farm livestock then you're probably going to come at it with different perspective vs someone who still sees benefits in having the wild type traits that support sustainability. I'm treatment free because my goal is to be treatment free. If your goals are different then that's okay.


Talk about painting with a broad brush.
What a crock!


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## BuckeyeBeek (Apr 16, 2013)

clyderoad said:


> Talk about painting with a broad brush.


Specifically which point, or do you mean just generally?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Skunkape71 said:


> Starting out, I thought TF would be the way to go.. A holistic approach, of sorts. The bees can take care of themselves, just as that have for hundreds of years, right? What a fool I was....





Learning2Bee said:


> I don't know where you got that idea from. If anything, treatment free beekeeping requires more work.


I know where he got that idea from. It has been repeated in various versions, hundreds or thousands of times on forums and in treatment free literature for years. Myself being a treater, this mantra has even been repeated at me many times to "prove" just how wrong I am for treating. Why treat, when the bees have been just fine for thousands of years? The argument goes. Skunkape was merely taking the mickey of this argument, which it seems he used to believe. Various forms of the statement go -

[The bees have been looking after themselves just fine for thousands of years]
[Bees know best]
[Let bees be bees]
etc...

Not a critism of you Learning2Bee, because I agree with you, the "the bees can take care of themselves cos they have for thousands of years" or "bees know best" argument is fallacious, as over the last centuries our bees did not have mites and did not have to learn what to do about them. As you, me, and Skunkape have realised. Not to say they never can learn, just, they do not innately have that ability within as a consequence of centuries of evolution.



Learning2Bee said:


> I'm in every one of my hives installing and culling drone comb, sugar dusting, testing, breaking the mite cycle when things go bad.


The problem I have with that is there is a contradiction. TF argument goes that treating is so wrong, because you are supporting non mite resistant bees. "Making weaker bees and stronger mites" is the often repeated mantra. So what I've always wondered, is about all the "other" things people are supposed to do to make bees treatment free. The list you have given, plus a whole bunch of other things people say you have to do, or "you are not doing it right". But are not all these other things supporting weaker bees also, just like treatment?

Which is why in theory at least, I'd be a supporter of hard bond, no interventions to keep the treatment free bees alive. Just that when I did hard bond, I lost all the bees. Therein the dilema.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

BuckeyeBeek said:


> Specifically which point, or do you mean just generally?


Your supercilious view and judgemental comments astounds me.
A 'larger worldview'? I think not.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Well I do consider bees to be livestock and like others I have kept, treat them for pests as a matter of kindness and practicality. 

I did perceive just a _wee_ bit of condescension in your post, but then my goals were different from the beginning; and yes, that is OK.


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## BuckeyeBeek (Apr 16, 2013)

clyderoad said:


> Your supercilious view and judgemental comments astounds me.
> A 'larger worldview'? I think not.


Yep, I see your point Clyde. I have a way with words sometimes and I need to use the edit option more. sorry, I didn't intend to offend. Might explain my 2 divorces, I always thought it was their fault!


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Smooth, solid ground is what I look for and try hard to stay on. 

Most beekeepers I've come across who have been at it for some time care deeply about the bees, the environment, the quality of their honey, possess a long term view,
love their families, try to get along well with their neighbors and nowadays may even communicate with folks in other parts of the world
learning and talking bees.
Some maybe bad guys, many more are good guys.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Iharder
Thanks for answering my question about queens earlier in this post. I have built 3 snelgrove boards and so on ward I march toward spring.
Again, Thanks for taking the time to give me an avenue.
gww


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Most welcome gww. I used them for the first time last season and was pleased with them. Crofter has much more experience and is very helpful with advice on their use.


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## EssexStadir (Nov 16, 2016)

I'm thankful for the voices of reason on this forum that turned me away from treatment-free beekeeping. Though this is only my first year beekeeping, it surely would have gone awry (and may still) had I not listened to people on this forum. 
So far, I have only done an OAD treatment on my hive but I plan a more rigorous mite-monitoring program in the future.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

EssexStadir said:


> I'm thankful for the voices of reason on this forum that turned me away from treatment-free beekeeping. Though this is only my first year beekeeping, it surely would have gone awry (and may still) had I not listened to people on this forum.
> So far, I have only done an OAD treatment on my hive but I plan a more rigorous mite-monitoring program in the future.


And I'm thankful for the good people like Micheal Bush who stopped me from even starting treatment. My first year both of my hives overwintered, one a PKG and one a swarm. I only had a 20% loss in 2016.


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

EssexStadir said:


> I'm thankful for the voices of reason on this forum that turned me away from treatment-free beekeeping.





Learning2Bee said:


> And I'm thankful for the good people like Micheal Bush who stopped me from even starting treatment.


This set of statements makes me _very_ interested in you two getting together, discussing your experiences and observations, and making up a summary from your perspectives. There must be some things common in your experience, as well as things which started the same and ended up very differently. It would make fascinating reading, if you wish to make that effort. It might be rewarding for both of you, as well as for others.

Michael


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## EssexStadir (Nov 16, 2016)

It seems this is more of a contentious subject than I thought. I didn't mean to say that TF is _wrong_. Apologies if that was the perception. 

I'm on my first year of keeping bees. I don't know much. I try to do my homework and put the time in. 

I did an OAD treatment a couple of moths ago. Nothing crazy. 
I just foud my first mites on some dead bees this morning so even if it helped there are still mites and dead bees.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

If treatments work for you, go for it!

I just personally don't like using chemicals in my hives, and I believe in good genetics ruling out the bad ones.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> The problem I have with that is there is a contradiction. TF argument goes that treating is so wrong, because you are supporting non mite resistant bees. "Making weaker bees and stronger mites" is the often repeated mantra. So what I've always wondered, is about all the "other" things people are supposed to do to make bees treatment free. The list you have given, plus a whole bunch of other things people say you have to do, or "you are not doing it right". But are not all these other things supporting weaker bees also, just like treatment?


OT speaks the truth.
It is not that easy. This is the kind of treatment one uses for the susceptibles to have some bees left.

It has nothing to do with tf even if the bees are healthier with the microbes intact ( MO).
You can prevent the reinfestation of more resistant hives with this "tf"-methods.

The path to resistance is to use the tf, real tf colonies to breed from, mutts or purchased queens, no matter.

But to select you have to expand. This is the dilemma. So to go blended bond is probably better ( for some time).
Use the susceptibles as nurse bees?! Shift the queens or multiply the more resistant in your bee yards.

Give yourself and the bees some time. 2 or 3 years of experience is nothing.

The hard bond works not in some locations. There are people who have 100 % losses every second year. Heartbreaking but avoidable.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> I know where he got that idea from. It has been repeated in various versions,
> 
> [The bees have been looking after themselves just fine for thousands of years]
> [Bees know best]
> ...


I have a couple of thoughts along this line. First of all it is not passible to keep bees in any manner and still say you are leaving them to their own. In the literal since you violated that leaving them alone to work it out by interacting with them at all. Leaving them alone would require you go grow apricots or something. but you cannot keep bees and say you left them alone. At best it is a attempt to minimize disruption. Which it seems a minimum enough level is not being found.

Second thought is based upon mans involvement with bees is what has caused the problem. Has there been to much damaged caused at this point? I tend to think so. Because the primary damage I see may have been caused would have happened very rapidly. Particularly in bees. I also gain this idea due to comments of bees that are left alone. ferell colonies. They are failing many say they no longer exist. if in fact they no longer exist then bees have already failed and there is no opportunity for them to recover. This is saying that if beekeepers really took there hand off bees. they would all fail. Which is a 180 degree departure to TF being the solution. It is saying treating is the only answer. Finding effective treatment is another issue. Managing bees is the only means that they survive at all.
So the big question is. do bees even still have what it takes to make it on their own? Beekeeper as a whole cannot even agree on that. I don't think they do myself. I think the prevailing failure of TF efforts and the gross failure of bond methods is evidence of that. The occasional success of treatment free either speaks of bees more suitable to survival without intervention or speaks of above par intervention. maybe a select few have reached some level of minimal disruption that produces some benefit. Could those same bees survive if completely ignored? I don't think so.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Daniel Y said:


> Could those same bees survive if completely ignored? I don't think so.


I think so.
If we with our changing of the planet would be extinct.
There will be honeybees left.



> 1. Putting bees in a container (e.g. skep, hollow log)
> 2. Providing top-bars with comb guides (e.g. Kenyan, Warré & Perone hives)
> 3. Providing frames
> 4. Providing frames with foundation
> ...


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Si
My take and my take only of a recent artical by randy oliver is that you don't want drones around from bees that can not live with out treatment because they bring down all the stock when queens are made. Secondly, You don't want to lose the workforce of the treated stock in your apery because they help you grow and not go backwards. And the conclusion is that you need to watch and record what is going on so you can see the ones that are not handling the non treatment regimate. On these you need to keep the workforce alive long enough to give them a better mite resistant queen to change such weak bees to good bees. The big problim I see with trying to carry out such a thing as randy is saying comes from a statement that I attribute to squarepeg and probly am miss quoting but here goes.

Mite resistant bees might have more to do with the mite tollerance of the bee keeper. 

So If somebody not treating is seeing winter mite counts of 15 per 300 hundred bees or what ever and his bees are living and the same counts are killing others then randys ideal of requeening the hives that can't handle it is almost impossible to do in a soft bond method cause they might live in them circmstance or die and you are not sure untill it happens.

So this makes it hard in my mind to come up with the machanics of strengtehing the breeding pool like he is suggesting.

And just so everybody knows, Yes I can even confuse myself. It is the state of confusion that I spend most of my waking hours. I just threw this out cause I thought it fit.
Cheers
gww


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I treat so my bees don't unnecessarily suffer or die from the consequences of varroa while in my care. 

My bees are all (originally) from swarms so my choices and actions have altered their destinies. The least I can do is make sure they are no worse off than they would have been if left on their own. 

I have no illusions that my tiny apiary (14 colonies) could ever be an effective evolutionary stepping stone towards a varroa-tolerant strain of bees. My goal is to reduce the considerable harm to my bees, and the feral and managed, (and TF) colonies within flight range, from unchecked varroa parasitism. 

Enj.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

gww said:


> Mite resistant bees might have more to do with the mite tollerance of the bee keeper.


There are many decisions in life, like what job you do for living, what spouse you dedicate your life to, what convictions you have.
So why not just try and see? There is no certainty in life, everything changes all the time.

Maybe the time will come to feel like MB does, this would be my success in future times.
Iharder`s approach is fine for me too, if I can do it with my co-workers.

If I would be enjambres, for example, I would loge all the swarms ( I envy you) into my forest and leave them be.
I love the bees not the honey. Honey is not necessary to me.

She wants them to be livestock, so she chooses another path. At least, she respects her bees.
Her thinking is so far from mine like mars to earth, but to me, it´s ok if she wants to call treatment free a threat. If she feels better....

In my life I have had some experience with people who always need a scapegoat. I have no problems anymore to be one, I follow my path.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

Let's look at it this way. What are most beekeepers goals? To prevent swarms, that's important remember it, and to produce honey. What would happen if hives were allowed to swarm as they were in a non intrusive environment? It would more then likely break the mites breeding cycle. And the way I see it, using drone frames counteracts the fact that I prevent my bees from swarming.

Also, mites become resistant to chemicals, would mites become resistant or maybe stop producing in drone combs? I doubt it.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

BuckeyeBeek said:


> . . . Sort of like the EPA being the largest contributor to water pollution; . . .


What the heck does this mean? EPA doesn't discharge anything into the water. How can it be the biggest polluter?


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## Dmlehman (May 30, 2015)

shinbone said:


> What the heck does this mean? EPA doesn't discharge anything into the water. How can it be the biggest polluter?


It is because, for some reason, some people always feel compelled to make wildly stupid, unsubstantiated statements. As if it makes them seem smart, or something. But, we all know how it actually comes across


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/...ne-spill-environmental-protection-agency.html

May not be the biggest but not quite goody two shoes.


Plus the agency is, IMO, total authoritarian and placing ridiculous regulations on our businesses.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

While trying to manage someone elses problem, they screwed up in this instance.

Which is not the same as "the EPA being the largest contributor to water pollution".


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Learning2Bee said:


> https://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/...ne-spill-environmental-protection-agency.html
> 
> May not be the biggest but not quite goody two shoes.
> 
> ...



That water pollution was created by the mining company that dug the Gold King mine, which then walked away from the environmental disaster it created. And, you can thank the U.S. Congress for letting the company escape its responsibility. And, further, thank the people who live in that area for blocking the clean up efforts by the EPA for the last few decades.




.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

I was simply pointing something out. Now please, let's stop hijacking this thread. It was very insightful before this.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Learning2Bee said:


> I was simply pointing something out. Now please, let's stop hijacking this thread. It was very insightful before this.


You make a silly erroneous statement unrelated to the original post, and then tell people to stop hijacking the thread? I like your style!




.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

I acknowledged that I was also hijacking the thread. I said "let's".

I'm not doing this with you. Go look for an argument somewhere else.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Oldtimer said:


> While trying to manage someone elses problem, they screwed up in this instance.
> 
> Which is not the same as "the EPA being the largest contributor to water pollution".


This is what I was thinking. get involved trying to clean up other peoples messes and regulating how they have to handle the messes they make. and they become responsible for every mistake made. Typical thinking.


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## BuckeyeBeek (Apr 16, 2013)

Dmlehman said:


> It is because, for some reason, some people always feel compelled to make wildly stupid, unsubstantiated statements. As if it makes them seem smart, or something. But, we all know how it actually comes across


EPA admittedly dumped 1 million gallons of toxic wastewater into the Colorado River, but upon further review it turned out to actually be 3 million gallons. It happens more often than is reported. Anyway, it was supposed to be an illustration for how sometimes solutions can turn into problems (like most 3-letter government agency acronyms set up to solve problems on our behalf). Yes, I knew when I posted there would be those who would be offended and against my better judgement, posted it anyway. Live and learn.


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## BuckeyeBeek (Apr 16, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> While trying to manage someone elses problem, they screwed up in this instance.
> 
> Which is not the same as "the EPA being the largest contributor to water pollution".


Point taken, just couldn't remember anyone else dumping 3 million gallons of toxic wastewater into a river. Perhaps the city of Cleveland circa 1969 (reference Cuyahoga), city of Flint, or Exon Valdez were potentially larger perpetrators. I move to strike from the record "largest" and replace with "one of the largest"


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## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

BuckeyeBeek said:


> Point taken, just couldn't remember anyone else dumping 3 million gallons of toxic wastewater into a river. Perhaps the city of Cleveland circa 1969 (reference Cuyahoga), city of Flint, or Exon Valdez were potentially larger perpetrators. I move to strike from the record "largest" and replace with "one of the largest"


I don't think you can claim an accidental breach of a holding pool created by an irresponsible company as "dumping" 3 million gallons of toxic wastewater. If you didn't have government regulations then "all" such companies would be dumping their waste in the nearest water source at will.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

BuckeyeBeek said:


> I move to strike from the record "largest" and replace with "one of the largest"


The age of "alternative facts" is clearly upon us.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Oldtimer said:


> The age of "alternative facts" is clearly upon us.


Like fake news?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

aunt betty said:


> The TF crowd here buys quite a few packages of bees every spring. That's a fraction of what was delivered.
> View attachment 30883


they have figured out problem number 1 LOL


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> The age of "alternative facts" is clearly upon us.


aren't all facts in a debate alternative? I mean participant A would normally state facts that support their claim, and Participant B would reciprocate with facts that support their claim. Now if these facts used by participants A and B were not alternative to one another, wouldn't it be a very short debate?


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Good question. But impossible to answer as common definitions are quickly changing.

There are facts, alternative facts, and factoids. Here is how these were commonly interpreted up to a few years ago -

Facts - facts.

Factoids - ideas that are commonly held to be facts, but are actually not true, or misconceptions.

Alternative Facts - lies.

Me, I would still like to think a fact is a fact. IE, if two facts are presented in an argument that are opposed and cannot both be true, one of them is really a factoid.

However, in the increasingly murky world we live in, seems like a person can choose any reality they want to live in. Not a good thing in my view, and I'm hoping that in 4 years time the definition of truth is not so badly damaged that we cannot return to a proper understanding of it.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

Sometimes, reality is chosen by the person living in it. Whether it truly is reality or not.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I've noticed that.


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## jonsl (Jul 16, 2016)

OT, you can see what has pervaded our lives over here on a daily basis. As the saying goes "you can fool some of the people all of the time".


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## BuckeyeBeek (Apr 16, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> There are facts, alternative facts, and factoids.
> 
> Facts - facts.
> Factoids - ideas that are commonly held to be facts, but are actually not true, or misconceptions.
> Alternative Facts - lies.


Well that was easy, problem solved... if there is any future debate regarding absolute truths we only need to seek out only those who know the real facts for clarification.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

To quote the signature line of a well known poster here who has an excellent record of knowing the "real facts"

"People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe." That is the hard part to get around in reaching a consensus on truth.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Its not just about facts. Its knowing when they are relevant to the issue at hand. 

For instance in physics, the world as it operates at the quantum level, is largely irrelevant to what is necessary when putting a satellite into orbit when good old Newtonian physics is used. One might perfectly know all the relevant equations for solving a problem, but come up with the wrong answer if the wrong one is used. 

I heard something a while back that stuck with me. When looking at a problem, the trick is knowing how big a circle to draw around it. Ideally if one was open minded, one should draw various sized circles around problems to see if meaningful new insight comes to light with expanded context. This is especially true when looking at complex adaptive systems.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Religion is easier - I just believe whatever I want to believe. Life is good!


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## raystownray (May 4, 2016)

good idea. OAV treatment works....believe me. I am a first year beek who bought 2 nucs from a NY supplier who delivers to PA. Unbeknownst to me, the nucs were a breeding ground for Varroa....(common I'm told). I did three consecutive treatments at 5-day intervals last fall. You would not beleve the number of dead mites that were on my bottom board after each treatment! So, long story short, my hives have made it through winter (saw them flying yesterday) and hopefully will make it one more month to let Spring get going. Good luck.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

So you all went from facts to Reality to Truth. Looks to me like you can't even figure out what you are discussing.
Fact: a thing that is indisputably the case: 
If you don't know what that is it means you are ignorant. Ignorant: lacking knowledge or awareness.

Reality:the world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them:
Example. It is a fact fish exist. and the reality is fish live in water.

Truth the quality or state of being true, that which is true or in accordance with fact oreality.

Notice Truth is something that must be in agreement with Fact or reality. Not necessarily both.

Are fact and reality the same thing? No. Reality is fluid. To one person the sun shines. to another it glares. To another it burns to another it warms. Truth is not dependent on any of those and is not required to be in accordance with them to be truth. While at once all are true for particular individuals. Fact is the sun is a star. and truth must be in accordance with it. Or it is not in fact truth.

The problem I see frequently is that reality is mistaken or claimed as truth. Often then accused by others of being opinion.

The mistake that is made is not that a person does not know know the truth of their reality. it is that others cannot figure out what it is they are hearing. They mistake it for a statement of truth or fact. 

Reality is what makes it possible for thousands to experience the exact same event. And yet how that event is experienced will not be exactly the same for any two.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Very interesting thoughts Daniel. Maybe you should have done philosophy or something!


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Daniel Y said:


> So you all went from facts to Reality to Truth. Looks to me like you can't even figure out what you are discussing.
> Fact: a thing that is indisputably the case:
> If you don't know what that is it means you are ignorant. Ignorant: lacking knowledge or awareness.
> 
> ...


That's pretty brilliant.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Daniel Y said:


> Are fact and reality the same thing? No. Reality is fluid. To one person the sun shines. to another it glares. To another it burns to another it warms. Truth is not dependent on any of those and is not required to be in accordance with them to be truth. While at once all are true for particular individuals. Fact is the sun is a star. and truth must be in accordance with it. Or it is not in fact truth.


IMHO, This is wrongly equating reality with perception. There is only one realty, and it is the sum of all the facts of a situation. But, different people may perceive realty in a different ways, which is the same as saying _perception_ is fluid.

JMHO



.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

I don't know how we got on facts vs reality vs truth vs factoids vs alternative facts, but, I'd have to say shinbone is correct. Their can only be one reality. But how it's perceived can make all the difference.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Fact: Given all others stressors as equal, the higher the mite loads the higher the probability the hive will die. 
Every hive we have is given equal treatment in the spring. All are first year queens started from nucs of similar size with our own cells within about a 3 week period, all have the benefit of a brood break with a corresponding broodless treatment and are equalized as needed. I've found that 6 months later, almost without fail, the best hives are those that benefited from a timely late summer mite treatment AND had the benefit of a late summer early fall flow.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

This is becoming a very long rabbit trail.
Perception: the ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses.
Note perception is not subject to likes dislikes. beliefs etc. It is not fluid in the since it is limited to the 5 senses. it is what you feel. see, hear, taste, or smell. You can then interpret those senses as you will. Perception is not thought, feeling, ideals or beliefs. So you see something. you choose what to think of it. Your thought does not alter reality.
What do you see here? And yes I drew this.








Now most will say they see a horse. That is because I am something of a master at manipulating what you perceive. What in fact you see is a grey mineral known as graphite that is carefully smeared on paper. Adding a whole lot of understanding about how other perceive. I am able to control what it is you think you see. The fact is graphite applied correctly to paper will alter your perception until you are calling it a horse.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

shinbone said:


> IMHO, This is wrongly equating reality with perception. There is only one realty, and it is the sum of all the facts of a situation. But, different people may perceive realty in a different ways, which is the same as saying _perception_ is fluid.
> 
> JMHO
> 
> ...


Daniel Y wrote well, but this is a good adjustment of what he wrote.

One person perceives that you can't keep bees without treating them. Another man perceives you can keep bees without treating them. The reality is that some people here can keep them without treating and reach his goals. Others can't keep them without treating to reach his goals. Maybe different goals, maybe different locations, bees, etc. Endless arguments happen when someone wants to be right instead of understanding all the realities of the subject at hand.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

Daniel Y said:


> This is becoming a very long rabbit trail.
> Perception: the ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses.
> Note perception is not subject to likes dislikes. beliefs etc. It is not fluid in the since it is limited to the 5 senses. it is what you feel. see, hear, taste, or smell. You can then interpret those senses as you will. Perception is not thought, feeling, ideals or beliefs. So you see something. you choose what to think of it. Your thought does not alter reality.
> What do you see here? And yes I drew this.
> ...


Exactly. The reality is its graphite in paper. But it's perceived by practically everybody as a horse. Perception v Reality


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

jim lyon said:


> Fact: Given all others stressors as equal, the higher the mite loads the higher the probability the hive will die.
> Every hive we have is given equal treatment in the spring. All are first year queens started from nucs of similar size with our own cells within about a 3 week period, all have the benefit of a brood break with a corresponding broodless treatment and are equalized as needed. I've found that 6 months later, almost without fail, the best hives are those that benefited from a timely late summer mite treatment AND had the benefit of a late summer early fall flow.


Sounds like you run off a modified Dolittle method. Correct?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Learning2Bee said:


> Sounds like you run off a modified Dolittle method. Correct?


Not really, old queens are killed and everything equalized once, sometimes twice. Sorry for the de-rail, now back to philosophy.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Daniel, What you speak of I would attribute to belief. Based loosely upon teaching I have had in breaking down Belief to Be Live or Be Living. Which indicates that your belief then directs your actions or how you live. You can set and think that bees can be kept without treatments. All fine and good but it will accomplish nothing. You have not yet demonstrated a belief in non treatment. Making choices taking action and attempting to keep bees alive without treatment is. And thank you for bringing this conversation back to an appropriate subject.
So will there be some degree of success in regard to any action of belief? Yes. The treatment beekeeper can point to successes. the treatment free beekeeper can also. Unless you are a glutton for punishment it is this tendency to see the success of one or the other that causes you to choose that belief.
Take it a step further. Is there adequate success with treatment free? To be fair is there adequate success with treating? I personally see neither. I tend to see people with drastically unacceptable losses attempting to justify them in the interest of claiming they are acceptable. Sort of like my way of loosing a whole lot of bees is better than yours. I am aware that there are views that cause people to blame the others for there problems. To me that is a matter of seeing horses. They simply choose to see others as the problem and can paint some picture that justifies it for themselves. Typical refusal to take responsibility for their choices and nothing more.
I definitely see that issues such as truth. fact reality and even perception have a place in regard to beekeeping and choices made. Btu I would like to see this conversation head back in the direction of including how these factors influence beekeeping beliefs choices and results.
Take are though because those factors are highly subject to manipulation both from ourselves as well as others. Probably why it is difficult to nail it all down. I don't think it can be myself.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

No that's alright. I'm always looking for new ways of doing things. I really like the MDAand Dolittle methods.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Learning2Bee said:


> No that's alright. I'm always looking for new ways of doing things. I really like the MDAand Dolittle methods.


Nothing wrong with those systems. We've found the best way to assure uniformity and not have mite hotspots with yards is simply to (as I like to call it) reboot each year. Second year queens are normally pretty good but we ask a lot of a queen to last two full extended migratory seasons. We have summer queen failures of course but don't see many drone layers like we did before we made the move to annual requeening.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

There is always a perception, and in some cases misconception, between treatment and tf beekeepers. Edit- Isn't whether something's working or not perceived differently by everyone? Because isn't everyone definition of working constantly changing? Edit end.

In reality, both methods work. But there seems to be a barrier for some people. The misconception that they, in fact, don't work. Although they do in reality.

I recognize the success some people have by treating. And I recognize the success some people have by not treating. But in reality, nothing is accurate. Because doesn't everyone have different genetics. Does the drone genetics not effect outside behavior of a colony? And the queens genetics not effect the inside? So how would anything be accurate if everyone has different genetics? As in humans we all have different allergy's, just because Tylenol works for you doesn't mean it will work for me. Although we're of the same species, are we not of different genes?


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

jim lyon said:


> Nothing wrong with those systems. We've found the best way to assure uniformity and not have mite hotspots with yards is simply to (as I like to call it) reboot each year. Second year queens are normally pretty good but we ask a lot of a queen to last two full extended migratory seasons. We have summer queen failures of course but don't see many drone layers like we did before we made the move to annual requeening.


I agree. I have seen and heard of many queens going strong of their 3rd or even 4th year. But are they able to break the breeding cycle if the mite like a 1st year queen.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Learning2Bee said:


> There is always a perception, and in some cases misconception, between treatment and tf beekeepers. Edit- Isn't whether something's working or not perceived differently by everyone? Because isn't everyone definition of working constantly changing? Edit end.
> 
> In reality, both methods work. But there seems to be a barrier for some people. The misconception that they, in fact, don't work. Although they do in reality.


Welllll. 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?331991-My-TF-experiment
Heres an update. The last of my untreated hives died. My treated bees? Nearly a year later 80% are still alive, 95%+ are hives that we harvested honey from, we strive for each and every hive to be a production hive. Of the remainder, about 70% graded out at a 6 comb minimum 8 fr. avg. and are currently out west in the monsoon. Probably around 20% have grown into that size in the past month and the remaining 10% are dinks that may or may not make it. 
Not knocking tf at all, no semantics, just facts.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I read your thread on that Jim and what is quite clear is you did not believe enough.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

Exactly, Jim. Treating works for you. That's great.

But there's the same people on the other side of the spectrum. Experiencing the opposite of what you are. Because every hive is different, every climate. We know that mites don't thrive as well in sunny dry areas. All the variables, what test is really accurate?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Learning2Bee said:


> Exactly. The reality is its graphite in paper.


You read Beesource on _paper_? :s And how did you get your printer to use graphite? :scratch:

*My* reality is that image of a horse is displayed via the courtesy of electrons/photons in a monitor, not wood chips and graphite! 


k:


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

Because you're perceiving the reality differently. I was perceiving it from a Dylan's POV. But in reality these are all truths based on different perceptions.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Learning2Bee said:


> Exactly, Jim. Treating works for you. That's great.
> 
> But there's the same people on the other side of the spectrum. Experiencing the opposite of what you are. Because every hive is different, every climate. We know that mites don't thrive as well in sunny dry areas. All the variables, what test is really accurate?


The opposite? I can't accept that controlling parasites can make things worse. Many have clearly achieved varying degrees of success with tf probably more have totally failed. I don't deny those successes and I applaud them for their diligence. As I've stated more than once tf breeding serves a useful purpose in beekeeping as long as its done intelligently and responsibly.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Oldtimer said:


> I read your thread on that Jim and what is quite clear is you did not believe enough.



Maybe, but as a little boy my fondest memory was of sitting on my mothers lap while she ready the story of "The Little Engine That Could". You know the power of positive thinking.....maybe you're right, maybe I just needed to try a little bit harder.


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## JoshuaW (Feb 2, 2015)

jim lyon said:


> I can't accept that controlling parasites can make things worse.


Neither can I. Our TF yard lost 11 of 13 BEFORE January. Our treated yard (17 colonies, Formic and OAV) has no losses thus far.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

Jim, by opposite I meant they had success without the need to treat.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

This is such a never ending debate.
I'll add my 2 cents

What kills me is, people believe what someone ( They usually don't even know who is clear across the country in totally different climate and environment, different circumstances with likely a different strain of bees) 
instead of believing what they are_ actually_ seeing right in front of them. 

It's always wise to consider opinions of others that have more experience than you, but not to the point of ignoring your own common sense. 

You have to consider if you had failed, if you have misinterpreted their information, or they are misinterpreting your specific situation and giving advise solely based on their experience within their bubble.

As a fairly new beekeeper, I've been successful here, but am very aware all the 'stars' are aligned for me. I'm secluded from other apiaries with southern bees, no commercial agriculture exposures and my climate, although wet, is about perfect for overwintering. I also bought the best breeding stock I could find when I started out.

That's why I did the work to get authorized to ship queens all over the USA. To test them in other different and harsher conditions. Not to increase my sales, I can sell all I can raise locally. 

Shipping my product to folks that were interested was to test the queens and get the genetics I've been working on the last several years in other parts of the country with other management methods.

-Hotter climates with no winter brood break as I enjoy here. Texas, Florida, etc.

-Colder climates with extremely short seasons. Alaska, Minnesota, etc

-Commercial Agriculture exposures with migratory operations, etc. 

Success with all those situations lets me know my Bubble is just an advantage for good queen rearing, not the sole reason for my success overall. 

Same goes for any method or motive, including treatment free beekeeping.

If you have experience and your 'stars' are all aligned, you may do well.

If not, you need to adjust your methods until you find what works for your situation and what you can live with. 

I still wonder why it has to be cut and dry 'treatment' or treatment free'
No one talks about the 'reduced' need for treating. 

That's not just treating when you get a high mite load, it's management with good genetics, brood breaks, simulated swarms, drone culling, etc. 

Treating only if necessary, but willingly if needed. No question about it. That also means knowing how to treat, when to treat and what to use effectively _before_ you need it. Not a day late and a dollar short which you may quickly become if you refuse to treat before you have the experience you need and buy new bees every year.

With OAV so cheap & available now and the ProVap 110 making treatment of a larger number of hives a snap, I look forward to some really great success stories this spring and next couple years.
Not to mention Randy Olivier Glycerine and OA shop towel methods very promising. 

I've got no problem with OAV. Love Apivar but it's harsher in the contaminate dept. and the cost would kill me if I had to treat all my hives. Regular use of Apivar would also set me up for eventual resistance so I only use it in extreme and specific conditions.

I believe treatment free takes a bubble of a location, experience, specific methods, good genetics and extra labor. And eventually, inevitably, the need for some kind of action when circumstances allow mites to increase over an acceptable threshold. 

When I get a customer who's gone through Chemotherapy a few times and is trying to be strictly organic and wants to run a treatment free hive, I'm not going to argue with them. It can be done, but it's not that easy or reliably long lasting in the majority of cases. 

Here's a case where I use Apivar. A neglected overlooked hive with a late supercedure of an older queen. New queen appeared to be poor quality reared during dearth period, hive had some signs of PMS and was in sad shape late summer.
I pinched the queen, requeened with a mated queen since it was so late in the season, treated with apivar and fed well. Then closed it up for winter and walked away. + OAV'd them in December.

This is what I found 2-11-17 when I opened it up several days ago. This is with no stimulative feeding. (Feeder stays in empty all winter so it's in place for spring feeding)



















Gave them a protein patty and a little heavy syrup to see if they would take it up before filling the feeder.










This is how it looked at my place the week before:



















The point is, you may be able to go TF for a while, but the hives don't say in prime shape forever without good management.

You won't get that kind of recovery going treatment free. Too late in the season for other methods, too late for a virgin queen, brood break and fall build up to fix. This was the best choice for the situation. Despite my preference for less treatments. I'm stubborn, but not that stubborn.

Dead bees are no achievement and have no value for continued development of beekeeping skills.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Daniel Y said:


> Daniel, What you speak of I would attribute to belief. Based loosely upon teaching I have had in breaking down Belief to Be Live or Be Living. Which indicates that your belief then directs your actions or how you live. You can set and think that bees can be kept without treatments. All fine and good but it will accomplish nothing. You have not yet demonstrated a belief in non treatment. Making choices taking action and attempting to keep bees alive without treatment is. And thank you for bringing this conversation back to an appropriate subject.
> So will there be some degree of success in regard to any action of belief? Yes. The treatment beekeeper can point to successes. the treatment free beekeeper can also. Unless you are a glutton for punishment it is this tendency to see the success of one or the other that causes you to choose that belief.
> Take it a step further. Is there adequate success with treatment free? To be fair is there adequate success with treating? I personally see neither. I tend to see people with drastically unacceptable losses attempting to justify them in the interest of claiming they are acceptable. Sort of like my way of loosing a whole lot of bees is better than yours. I am aware that there are views that cause people to blame the others for there problems. To me that is a matter of seeing horses. They simply choose to see others as the problem and can paint some picture that justifies it for themselves. Typical refusal to take responsibility for their choices and nothing more.
> I definitely see that issues such as truth. fact reality and even perception have a place in regard to beekeeping and choices made. Btu I would like to see this conversation head back in the direction of including how these factors influence beekeeping beliefs choices and results.
> Take are though because those factors are highly subject to manipulation both from ourselves as well as others. Probably why it is difficult to nail it all down. I don't think it can be myself.


I would say our perceptions generally guide our belief, which directs our actions, but perception is everything. Our perception of things is also guided and altered by many factors, good or bad. Our prejudices, our ability or inability to observe accurately and thoroughly, our ability to reason through observations, meaning of words, influences from others, and on and on, influence our perceptions about things. 

A person can set, or stand, and think that bees can be kept without treatments, and if he then tries it and succeeds, he could then believe it. He can hear others say they do it and believe it can be done, but he would be hasty to believe he himself could do it before he tries. He may not be able to succeed like another one does.


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## Learning2Bee (Jan 20, 2016)

That's great, Lauri. But it doesn't prove anything to me, or make your operation seem better then anyone elses. You use different methods and get the same success many people do. A colony failing can be attributed to many more things than whether you treat or not. 

You say tf is doable with the right management, but without leads to problems. You're correct. But I can say the same thing about treating. So what does that prove? Nothing to me.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

"I can't accept that controlling parasites can make things worse."

As an example, they find that using antibacterial soaps makes staph infections more frequent in MMA fighters. Appears other bacteria on our skin are important. 

Lots of info on how altering the ecological context can affect virulence as well. Treating alters context and creates knock on effects, not always predictable. With the investigative molecular tool kit getting bigger and cheaper, I believe we will eventually have broader AND more detailed explanations about what is going with host/parasite/associated symbionts and hangers on interactions. I think some bee researchers are going to be interested in this. Its the kind of thing that could get published in Nature, vs the American Bee Journal. 

On reality, yes on one level nobody knows anything, take this too seriously and watch things grind to a halt. There is common experience, time is required to sort out what sticks and what are essentially group hallucinogenic experiences. 

A good scientist is able to cut through at least some of the hubris, and do something interesting, usually when young. Even Einstein spent too much time trying to dismantle quantum physics when he was old. It didn't fit his preconceptions of how the universe worked.


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## BuckeyeBeek (Apr 16, 2013)

lharder said:


> "group hallucinogenic experiences"


Good one.


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

Learning2Bee said:


> That's great, Lauri. But it doesn't prove anything to me, or make your operation seem better then anyone elses. You use different methods and get the same success many people do. A colony failing can be attributed to many more things than whether you treat or not.
> 
> You say tf is doable with the right management, but without leads to problems. You're correct. But I can say the same thing about treating. So what does that prove? Nothing to me.


Could you expand on these statements. I get a pretty good feeling where Lauri is coming from and can relate to about everything she said. I have a little more trouble understanding where you are coming from. I read all your posts to this site and still can't understand. I see about this time last year you were saying much the same thing as Lauri. You said you treated if need be. 

I think Lauri's operation is better than mine and read all her posts with interest. I love the different methods and see a lot of posts here from people not getting the same success. Many times this appears to be a lack of mite control. It seems that mites are overwhelmingly the cause of collapse right now.

Please tell us about your experiences and success Learning2Bee. Whether you "treat" or "don't treat" is your choice. I would like to see you share your methods, experiences, successes or lack thereof. Thanks in advance.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I'm not saying my methods are superior nor am I trying to promote my queens here. I'm just giving examples of what I am working with and how that is all going, how I test it, how it turns out. That's all.
I use my own _actual _experiences when I post here, not some hypothetical situation and speculation based on theories.

I always feel like I am talking about myself and hate it. But it's what I know to be true in actuality, so I use my stuff as examples.

In the case of that failing colony I show that recovered well, how would a treatment free beekeeper handle that situation? Mid-late August is when it was requeened, treated and fed.

You can't pinch the poor queen and combine them with another colony. It's too late to install a virgin queen and hope for fall build up to overwintering strength, if indeed a virgin and resulting brood break helped and not further weakened a struggling colony that time of year. And I'm not going to drop a good mated queen into a colony with issues and expect miracles.

I've learned to manage bees by trial and error and tuned my skills based on how my bees respond. 

Change my Carnies for Italians, give me a warmer climate without a good brood break, close sources for pest and disease reinfestation and chemical exposures and I'd be scrambling for a long while to figure out what my methods and schedules were. I'd likely have less than half the number of hives I have now as a result. 

In just a few years I've gotten a crash course in beekeeping by being successful with queen rearing, making increases and successful overwintering. I've not seen it all, but I have seen more then many with the same number of years behind them.

I don't want you to believe me, a stranger clear across the country. I want you to consider what I have done, use what information and ideas make sense to you and apply it to the bees you have in front of YOU>


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

dlbrightjr said:


> I think Lauri's operation is better than mine and read all her posts with interest. I love the different methods and see a lot of posts here from people not getting the same success. Many times this appears to be a lack of mite control. It seems that mites are overwhelmingly the cause of collapse right now.


Lauri is a pretty remarkable beekeeping story. She's a relative newcomer to beekeeping (at least from my perspective) but between hard work and an apparent natural beekeeping aptitude she's a good example of how anyone can build a nice sideline operation, maybe more. I don't know what her perspective was from a treating standpoint when she started out but she's clearly figured out pretty quickly the kind of bees you can raise with varroa control and good management. Look again at the pictures she posted of a hive that, without intervention, was almost certainly doomed. Does anyone in the northern hemisphere not want a hive in their operation that looks like that in early February?


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Lauri said:


> It's always wise to consider opinions of others that have more experience than you, but not to the point of ignoring your own common sense.


+1


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## BuckeyeBeek (Apr 16, 2013)

Another example of EPA just doing it's job...


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

BuckeyeBeek said:


> Another example of EPA just doing it's job...


Doing its job? :scratch:

You mean setting pesticide standards and then enforcing those standards? Do you expect something other than that?


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

Skunkape71 said:


> On treatment-Free. Sounded like a great idea, and one I have hoped to maintain. Varroa have beat me down, my bees down, and my wallet down. I'm new to the game, going on year 3 of beekeeping.. Guess I'm kinda hard headed about things being idealistic vs. realistic.
> 
> Ordered the Varrox today; Time to make a stand against those SOB's!


TF can be done. Out of the 16 TF hives I manage, we lost one this winter. 

Shane


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## dlbrightjr (Dec 8, 2015)

tsmullins said:


> TF can be done. Out of the 16 TF hives I manage, we lost one this winter.
> 
> Shane


Congrats. Could you share your experience? Preferably in a new thread. Origin if bees. Previous success and failures. Resources you used. Non treatment methods you used. You will lose a little skin in the process, but, it will be useful to some of us. Thanks.


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## DerTiefster (Oct 27, 2016)

Several of my colleagues at work use what might be called no "chemical" treatments. In that category many do not count powdered sugar dusting as a grooming inducement and various management techniques. Disselkoen recommends early "cut-down splits" followed by more severe splits late enough in the summer to be requeened by post-Solstice queens. He claims good success with othewise not treating for mites.

My own experience the 2015-2016 winter was that the three colonies I inherited after my daughter's and her spouse relocated died out even with sugar cakes supplied all winter. The re-started colonies were supplemented by late splits, most post-Solstice as described by Disselkoen but not following him. All eight entering winter have so far survived w/o direct mite treatment, although I have an OA vaporizer in my possession. I'm very interested in the experiences of others, too. including how they got where they are. Some who try no-treatment have all their colonies die out. Some do not.

I requeened a swarm that arrived last April with a queen from a generic supplier of GA-raised bees. That colony alone always showed zero mite count via sticky board. I don't know what that means, but it probably means something. (Possibly as simple as that I need better glasses.)

Michael


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## Scottsbee (Jan 11, 2017)

We wanted to be treatment free. After seeing what looked like DWV on a few bees, all the stories of new beeks losing bees and me knowing nothing about bees. Started treating with OAV at the end of summer, 2016,4 treatments every 5 days with a follow up around turkey day. Still not sure why our bees are still alive, so many mistakes. 
After first treatment, ipm board showed hundreds of mites. Colony is still going, this year will be its 3rd year. Winter here is not quite over yet. We have 3 hives and see them flying on the nicer days. 
Thank you to the people that contribute to this site, learning so much. Lurking here for awhile and decided to join in.


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