# Stock Evaluation



## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

How would you judge this 2 different yards of 8 Hives and 7 hives about 1 1/4 mile apart over two ridges. 

They were treated in the fall with apistan both yards made about 20-30 lbs fall honey in 2005 this was left on them for stores. 

They were all requeen the last of September of 2005. 

All have 90% new equipment Under 3 years old.


Hardly any sign of mites in the Spring no visually signs of mites on the bees or in the brood (worker or drone)

No treatment in the spring, about June 15 started seeing lots of mites on the bees and in the brood in #1 yard Let ride because didn't want to contaminate the honey.

#2 Yard Still looking Great very very low mite find


#1 yard about the last of July I gave in and treated. (Apistan) seeing deformed bees. uncapping of brood and half eaten out pupa
#2 still doing great.

So would you select the bees from #2 yard for breeding for re stance to mites.WHY or Why NOT


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

As worked for thousands of years, I would select from my best performers. I would not necessarily disqualify a colony just because it was treated. I good policy in your case might be to grade them by yard, selecting top performers out of each group to breed from.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Velbert,

You have insufficient information to make a decision re mite tolerance. Presuming that all queens were from the same stock, then its highly unlikely that a single yard would be tolerant and another susceptible.

Please go back and re-evaluate the colonies and find out if the second yard is in fact tolerant or if its just a matter of not many mites for them to be exposed to.

Fusion


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

velbert sezs:
All have 90% new equipment Under 3 years old.

tecumseh ask:
is the 10% used equipment equally distributed between the two yards?

with qualification I would agree with pcolar. I would likely do a complete mite count at first opportunity and not place 'much' weight on whether a colony had been treated or not. choose from the best performers. always remember that in regards to producing new queens the selection process should be made for both the male and female.


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## Robert Brenchley (Apr 23, 2000)

You could be getting the same situation in one yard that I had last summer, with mites coming in from collapsing hives in the area. if they're both the same strain, I imagine something like that's been at work.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

One of the questions that I keep wondering about is, which comes first: the stress or the mites?

Obviously, Varroa can stress colonies. But are large populations of Varroa the original cause, or symptoms of other stresses in hives?

Most breeding programs devoted to breeding new varieties are much larger than a few hives producing a few queens. Sure, a small breeding program could get lucky and produce some valuable varieties, but the odds are against it (I'm not trying to discourage anyone here, if you wish to try your hand at breeding distinct forms of bees).

Breeders of most organisms talk about finding some of the "best" individuals, not of producing new forms or varieties. Think of race horse breeders -- they're not trying to breed something new into their animals, just hoping to raise the fastest horses around.

The breeders who are trying to add traits or improve organisms generally work on much larger scales. Grain breeders, for example, start with thousands upon thousands of seeds and select only a few from that show some promise. Similarly, breeders of bees seeking to create new lines of bees might have to evaluate thousands of queens to find one or two that show some promise, then try to work from that small start.


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## cmq (Aug 12, 2003)

First of all dont compare one yard against the other. Take the best of both yards and put them inthe same yard....all environmental influences need to be negated in order to do a heritable based selection.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

We are constantly marking hives throughout the course of the summer for potential breeders. Through the summer it is primarily for honey production compared to other hives within a location something which I believe can be very much influenced by a lot of factors besides genetics primarily timing and drifting. In the fall we continue to mark hives that seem to be holding up population wise and against mite stress but again I always feel that within a location it is difficult to see any real difference because I feel the general condition of the hives in that location has primarily been influenced by the amount of fresh pollen and nectar that has come in late. Through the winter and early spring we use all of these marked hives to select our breeders based on relative hive strength and handling characteristics. From 3 to 4 thousand hives we end up with 15 to 20 we use as breeders and the rest as builder hives and drone stock. Is this a good way to go about it? I question that it is but for lack of a better analysis I feel it is the best I can do and I am always wondering how to better analyze the genetics of a particular hive. An interesting side note is that though I have purchased Italians, Caucasian, and Carni bees through the years it seems that even though I admit to being a bit prejudiced towards yellow Italian queens we have never used color as a criteria in selection and it seems every year our bees get a bit darker. Does this mean the darker strains are more tolerant of mite stresses and the other stresses that migratory beekeeping puts on bees HMMMMMM I wonder.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

I'm not a bee geneticist, but I have put enough time into studying genetics to realize that there is often more than one explanation for a set of observations. In this case, the observation is that selection for performance over a number of years has resulted in darker color bees on average. The stated conclusion that darker bees are better adapted to this kind of management is not fully supportable though it may be true.

Here are two alternative conclusions:

1. It is possible that the yellow bees you have used are simply less well adapted than your darker bees. This does NOT preclude breeding a well adapted yellow bee nor does it preclude that a well adapted yellow strain could be found outside your breeding population.

2. Given that there is zero color selection pressure, genetic drift can occur very easily. Its been my experience that a population of bees tend to normalize neither all dark nor all light in color under these conditions. They tend on average to be darker than typical Italians.

It would make an interesting counterpoint to run some cordovan drones among your existing breeders. Then watch to see if the cordovan gene shows back up among your selected breeders in later generations. The reason I suggest this is that I have seen cordovan repeatedly eliminated from stock when I selected for performance. I'm not sure why.

Fusion


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

"It is still constantly taught on the Continent that on no account must a queen be used for breeding whose colony has given exceptional yields of surplus, for such queens cannot be relied on to transmit the exceptional honey-producing ability to their offspring. Colonies that produce record yields are termed 'blender' -- a colony that blinds by its brilliant performance, but a performance that is not based on heredity, merely on fortuitous circumstances. Therefore the mother of such a colony when used as a breeder, can lead to nothing but failure and disappointments. In contradistinction, the greatest value is placed on mediocre performance. There is undoubtedly a grain of truth in these assertation; exceptional yields may be purely accidental, or may be the result of a cross-mating of which no visible evidence is shown in the external characteristics of the bees...However, by the constant elimination of exceptional performance no real progress in breeding is possible." In Search of the Best Strains of Bees by Brother Admam

I kind of see the point that real boomer hives are often the result of bad decisions and good luck.

Here's a case where Jay Smith picked his best producing hive for a queen mother only to find out it had been queenless for some time:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#The%20Colony%20that%20Gave%20a%20Bumper%20Crop


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

About the question,,,, 
Are darker bees better or more adapted than yellow?

IMO, a distinction like this often crosses bee races, therefore separate traits would be prevalent making a classification of honeybees based on color alone not valid, a comparison of apples to oranges. 

When we do look across races at color. I personally find that the darker races do absolutely terrible for me under my system of no treatments or crutches. Every dark bee that I have had came down with serous brood diseases and necessitated elimination. This is not to say that dark races are bad performers, they just dont do well in my area where wild Italian types genetics dominate. Dark races that open mate here, apparently are not assimilating traits that were adapted and are good for the particular dark race, being that my area is dominated by wild Italian types. 

When I look at color within a race, darker Italian types do much better for me than the yellow Italians do.

[ December 19, 2006, 06:26 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--Here's a case where Jay Smith picked his best producing hive for a queen mother only to find out it had been queenless for some timeMB)

This was a failure on Jay Smiths part. 

He neglected to choose a colony based on over all performance, which would necessitate looking at queen performance, disease resistance and management characteristics. These are all essentials of any proper colony performance assessment. Too often beekeepers select bassed on economic performance alone, and neglect the essentials of an overall performance assessment. Shame on Jay Smith for this failure to do so.









[ December 19, 2006, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

jlyon sezs:
Does this mean the darker strains are more tolerant of mite stresses and the other stresses that migratory beekeeping puts on bees HMMMMMM I wonder. 

tecumseh replies:
I have not without any real hard and fast data that those hives here that fare the best it is not atypical for the queen to be a bit dark. itialian for sure, but defintely more that a bit dark.

michael bush quote brother adams???
"It is still constantly taught on the Continent that on no account must a queen be used for breeding whose colony has given exceptional yields of surplus, for such queens cannot be relied on to transmit the exceptional honey-producing ability to their offspring.

tecumseh add:
in genetic 'speak' this is call reversion to the mean. which simply suggest that statistical outlayers will not yield offspring that are also statistical outlayers.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

jlyon wrote:
Does this mean the darker strains are more tolerant of mite stresses and the other stresses that migratory beekeeping puts on bees HMMMMMM I wonder.-(Jyn)


It is possible, being that Italians were selected for yellow trait for years here in the USA, the appearance of darker Italians being more resistant could be a symptom of feral genetics in your bees.

Also, it is interesting to note that if darker type Italians are do better for beekeepers. This IMO, is suggestive of a recovery in our bees as a DIRECT RESULT of feral genetics, rather than domestic genetics. Otherwise, the recovery would be strongest in the domestic yellow type Italians.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Jay Smith was obviously using production as a first criterion then was following up by checking the colony for use as a breeder. He used this colony as an example of the problems caused by drifting and why such a colony could not be relied on for breeding work.

"In Indiana we had an outyard laid out in the form of a triangle as that was the shape of the plot on which we had our bees. During the sweet clover flow one colony produced three supers of honey while the others averaged about two supers. In the fall that colony produced two supers of honey from smartweed and asters while the rest produced a little less than one super. Surely that colony that so far outdistanced the others must have a queen that would make an excellent breeder. I thought I would take a look at her but alas, when I opened the hive, I found it not only had no queen but was fairly lousy with laying workers! Just why then the big yield? This colony was located at the point of the triangle to the west and the fields of nectar lay to the west. It was evident that the bees in returning from the fields-maybe the ones out for their first load-stopped at the first hive they came to and kept it packed with bees." Jay Smith


I am all for genetic selection but not on TOO NARROW a basis. If you select 20 colonies out of 4000 to use as breeders, your genetic base is converged down at a ratio of 200 to 1. Presuming outside stock is not brought in, this level of genetic reduction would cause serious problems within 10 years.

The New World Carniolan breeding project is one example of a long term selection plan. Its weakness is that inbreeding effects would be felt within 20 years unless outside stock is brought in.

Darrel Jones


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

I think a few things need to be kept in mind in all of this.

First, Jlyon talks about using 15 to 20 hives out of 3000 to 4000 hives as breeders. Note that the rest are used for drone production. Since drones contribute half the genetics to the female bees of the subsequent generation, half of the genes are as likely or more likely to come from the 2980 to 3985 colonies that are NOT used for breeders as from the 15 to 20 that are used as breeders.

And the "feral" populations or drones from other managed colonies still figure into this as well.

In an open mating system like this, I can't imagine the chances of inbreeding effects causing serious problems are any greater than the chances from any other open mating system.

Then, too, there's the question of "feral" colonies and the contributions they make to the genetics.

If assortative matings take place like some have suggested, "feral" genetics are unlikely to be making much of an impact on Jlyon's commercial bees. Otherwise, I suspect that the chances that genes from managed colonies are entering "feral" populations would be about as great as the chances that "feral" genes are entering managed populations. Assortative mating either works, or it doesn't.

Also, I don't know where the breeding takes place for Jlyon's colonies (I seem to remember that your bees go to California for almonds, Jlyon?); in SD, though, the number of "feral" colonies seem pretty few and far between. Lack of suitable hives is a big reason. Pcolar has cited (on other threads) populations of unmanaged bees at three to five colonies per woodland mile. That might be true, but SD isn't "woodland." In much of SD, I doubt you'd find three to five trees per square mile. No buildings, no trees, where would the bees build hives?

Last note: some of the lightest coloration (cordovan) is produced by recessive genetics. I would expect to see much of that disappear in an open mating system, unless everything else around was also cordovan. Maybe light pigmentation in bees, generally, is recessive?


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--If assortative matings take place like some have suggested, "feral" genetics are unlikely to be making much of an impact on Jlyon's commercial bees. Otherwise, I suspect that the chances that genes from managed colonies are entering "feral" populations would be about as great as the chances that "feral" genes are entering managed populations. Assortative mating either works, or it doesn't.--(Kieck)

Hi Kieck!

In tests, they found that there was assortative mating. 
Drones mating with the smaller OD models had significantly lower thorax mass than those mating with the larger OD models (Taylor, Coelho) 

There was also an overall preference in all sizes of drones for queens with larger sting chambers, such as one might find in a larger queen. This apparent preference for sting chambers of larger than normal diameter may be due to the ease of detecting an open sting chamber if it is larger (Taylor, Coelho) 

The study also found that, although large drones tended to mate with large queens, and small drones with small queens. Smaller drones had a distinct advantage in the added ability to also mate with a larger queen. The thoraxes of both groups of copulating drones in this test weighed significantly less than those of a trapped sample of the population (Taylor, Coelho) 

Feral genetics can reside Jlyons colonies and being of the same foundation size can therefore mate with his own queens. 

The evidence suggests that the dark Italian colonies that beekeepers tend to report being resistant are from the feral population and not of recent domestic origin. 

In 1929 a visiting Russian scientist Dr. Alpatov, noted that Italian honey bees bred and sold in the U.S. were more yellow in color than populations he had studied across Italy. He attributed the color difference to U.S. queen producers who actively selected for this trait.

IMO, this contradicts many breeders claims that they and the ARS scientist are responsible for the recovery of the feral honeybees. These observations of darker Italians surviving for beekeepers suggest a honeybee recovery that is being led by feral genetics. Otherwise it would think that the yellow Italians would be performing better than the darker Italians.

[ December 19, 2006, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Hello, Pcolar:

I'm not sure about the assortative mating comments align with my understanding of assortative mating. I was taught that assortative mating took place one of two ways: either 1) organisms very similar to each other were more likely to mate than organisms less similar, eventually reducing variation in the population and likely "polarizing" genotypes, or 2) organisms very similar to each other were less likely to mate than organisms more similar, possibly also reducing variation but converging on a central genotype, or increasing variation.

Either way, if smaller drones are more likely to mate with smaller queens and smaller drones are more likely to mate with larger queens, the system is no longer an example of assortative mating. That would just be outright competition.

And, if smaller drones were able to successfully mate more often than larger drones, evolution will necessarily drive toward smaller drones. That's sexual selection.

"Feral genetics can reside Jlyons colonies and being of the same foundation size can therefore mate with his own queens." -Pcolar

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. If the genetics are in managed colonies, what makes "feral" genetics unique? If "feral" bees are living in managed colonies, what makes them "feral?"

Interesting stuff, though, Joe! I think your comments about breeders selecting lighter yellow bees, yet darker bees seeming to appear over time, are especially thought-provoking.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Hello Keick!

This was a study on Size Related Mating Preferences in Honeybee Drones, which found size related assortative mating preferences.

Evolution would select for smaller drones, but remember to resist the urge to look at it from a human perspective. Big drones can still be small in the overall scheme of things, and bigger drones the bigger drones.

--If the genetics are in managed colonies, what makes "feral" genetics unique? If "feral" bees are living in managed colonies, what makes them "feral?"--(Keick)

Feral is a term I use to distinguish that my bees, and the bees I collect originate from the wild, and not as a product of poor breeding practices and pesticide usage that seem to be prevalent in the industry. Ferals are in balance, having necessary traits both for survival and of economic value. There is a distinction between the two and it must be noted, and this is how I choose to note it! I am fully content and at peace with the fact that many will wrestle with the definition of feral honeybee for the rest of their lives, or until they die. 

--Interesting stuff, though, Joe! I think your comments about breeders selecting lighter yellow bees, yet darker bees seeming to appear over time, are especially thought-provoking.--(Keick) 

Besides the pockets of feral bee recovery having different traits associated with varroa resistant, this is most fascinating aspect in the recovery of the ferals, because it gives us a tool to use to help identify the less domestic influenced ferals here in my area. The remote type ferals in my area have become quite a bit darker. These ferals also tend to be extremely uniform in size, color, body markings and assess much higher during the growth stage. The queen will usually have markings often associated with the wild type Italians. It appears some type of separation is aiding this process.

Ive always said that I will NEVER select based on appearance, but I find myself wrestling with the fact that I continue to see ferals with a certain appearance outperform for me. For now, they all go into my assessment yard and are assessed as equals.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Pcolar,

The feral black bees you are seeing are most likely derived from a remnant population of the german/dutch bees that were prevalent in the U.S. prior to Italians. I caught numerous swarms of these bees back in the 1970's. They were obviously crossed with Italians but showed the traits of the "German Black" bees to an extreme. This included greatly enhanced pollen collection, very rapid spring buildup, and exquisitely white cappings. Their worst traits were excessive swarming, severe irritability, susceptibility to diseases, and a tendency to collect very dark honeys.

The invasion of tracheal mites decimated these bees in the 1980's. The survivors would have been crosses with lots of Italian heritage because that was the genetic source of tracheal mite tolerance. The gradual re-assertion of the dark color genes indicates that segregation is favoring the darker bees for unknown reasons. Feral bees now have to be tolerant of tracheal and varroa mites and if the models are correct, should also show significant tolerance to brood diseases because of the enhanced hygienic traits.

Just some thoughts on your ferals.

Darrel Jones


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

What was once managed, becomes feral, then becomes managed again, then produces more ferals, hopefully the cycle never ends.
JBJ


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Hello Darrel! 

I have looked at the possibility that these ferals could influenced by A.m.mellifera. Many have said to watch for this, and there is an extreme wanting with some of the small cell community for recovering ferals to be of the German Black bee, but I am not seeing evidence that suggests this is the case for me here in my area. I have studied some of the morphometry characteristics and behavioral traits associated with each race, and these bees compare in more areas to A.m.Ligustica than they do the Black Bee, or any other race.

I have been keeping Italians for many years, and although these bees appear darker, smaller in size and use more propolis. They still have the general look of an Italian and when considering other characteristics, they are more suggestive of Italian types than other types that I am familiar with. A friend has offered to morph my bees for me some time ago, will have to take him up on the offer and gather 30 or so bees and send them off in the mail.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

One variable that is very hard to control or evaluate is the location. I have two pairs of yards that are within two miles of each other, appear to have similar plant distribution, have the same general climate conditions, and are handled the same way. In each pair, one yard consistantly produces healthy colonies with good production while the other yard is a disaster year after year. I have seen nothing that looks like pestacide problems or critter problems. Parasite problems are always worse in the downer yard but also occur in the better yards. Short of doing an actual inventory of the available forage within range of each yard I cannot think of any way to realy measure the differance, and given the range of the foraging bees that would be impractical. The only conclusion I have found is that there is a differance between the yards in each pair that the bees respond to but that I cannot see. It's like playing poker with half a dozen wild cards. Just because locations are close together does not mean they offer the same opportunities for the bees.

My practical solution to this situation is: I am keeping all four yards. I intend to start putting prospective breeder queens in the least succesful yards and will breed the ones that do well in the poor location, then move the daughters of those queens to the better locations and evaluate them for breeding potential. I am going on the assumption that a bee's universe is only a few square miles and with a mile or so of seperation I have some hives on Mercury and some hives on Jupitor. Pollination is space travel for the bees, so a strain of astronaut bees is what I need for a migratory operation.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

My observation on darker bee color gradually emerging seems to have stimulated the analytical minds of many here. A bit more background, we do all of our breeding in wooded areas of NE Texas, undoubtably there are some feral bees present which I have always assumed is a good thing. Our particular locations are well saturated with our own stock, how much feral mating goes on is anyones guess. In addition I always bring in a few new queens ever year from outside sources, I have questioned the chances of inbreeding with some breeders I know and have been told that in their opinion with these numbers it is not really a concern. I am not at all suggesting that Italians are in anyway inferior only the simple observation that our bees seem to get darker every year. Another thought FWIW on a more simplistic note is perhaps much like the blending of races among humans as darker skinned people become lighter and vice versa through the centuries perhaps this is the type of thing that can happen in bee breeding if there is no selection for color. With that thought in mind perhaps their should be more isolated breeding programs that insure that these various races continue to exist in their purest forms for the benefit all. I remember hearing quite a number of years ago that a gentelman, whose name escapes me, was doing something like this out in the sandhills of Nebraska where there were no bees anywhere near. Anyway keep those minds going I am impressed by the level of analysis I read here, no one has all the answers and it is always interesting to read the different takes that beekeepers have on things.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

Pcolar:

I don't have the paper you cited in front of me. I've heard some of these claims cited as barriers between SC bees (from "feral" stock or not) and LC bees in the past. Perhaps it's accurate. I'm not sure. But logically it doesn't make sense.

Let's start with the less likely of the two forms of assortative mating: negative assortative mating. In this type of system, relating drone and queen sizes (relatively), large drones would tend to mate with small queens and small drones would tend to mate with large queens. This one would really destroy the arguments made by SC beekeepers! This would mean that half of the genetics of each subsequent generation would come from exactly the type of bees that the SC beekeepers were selecting against. And, it would mean that the "feral" bees would be more likely to mate with managed bees. Those "feral" bloodlines would get watered down pretty quickly.

So, the converse is positive assortative mating. This is the system most people think of when you say "assortative mating." In this type of system, small drones would tend to mate with small queens, and large drones would tend to mate with large queens. This system could easily account for a separations between "feral" genetics and "managed" genetics. However, this also means that matings between AHB drones and queens from managed colonies would be less likely than matings between drones from managed colonies and queens from managed colonies.

That takes care of some of the problems with colonies becoming Africanized, right?  

The problem, then, is that many of the 'keepers who are raising "feral" bees switch to claiming that smaller drones are simply faster and more viable than larger drones, so not only do the drones from "feral"/SC stock mate more frequently with queens from "feral"/SC stock than do drones from managed colonies, by these smaller drones from "feral"/SC stock are more likely with mate with queens from managed colonies than are drones from managed colonies. (I know, that's a tangler of an explanation. Sorry.)

But that's no longer "assortative mating." That's simply, "Smaller drones are more likely to mate than larger drones." That's selection. And that's likely to drive evolution. Over time, that selection should lead to smaller drones.

As far as defining "feral bees," I won't try to tackle that one. I know the intent is designating bees that have survived without human intervention, but another term might be more appropriate than "feral."

Interesting to note that Jlyon said their breeding operation is in NE Texas. Open mating, in my opinion, is always anyone's guess. Which direction will the queen go? Which direction/how far will the drones go? Drifting of drones, even over relatively great distances, has been documented.

Isolated breeding programs (or using II to accomplish the same thing), I think, are important. I believe the goals of bee breeding are likely to be met more rapidly through such programs.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Sierrabees, on the differences between the two yards you referred to; have you assessed the morning sun factor? Even minor differences will affect how early the girls get to work. I would also consider water differences, quality and distance. I do like the idea of assessing queens under more challenging circumstances, if they perform well there, then they will usually excel under optimal conditions.

On barriers to gene flow with honeybees; aside from geographic isolation (temporary in this day and age) there are none, unless there is some speciation, which by definition is a reproductive barrier. Some have mentioned mere genetic saturation of one type as a barrier, this is not a true barrier, all it would take to surmount this would be one swarm or colony of a different genotype or strain to establish itself in the region of the ferals and there will be interbreeding.
JBJ


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

Thank Guys for all the comments some good points to really think about.


I would like to give you some Info on the 2 yards

#1 All the Queens that each yard was requeen with was all from the same breeder Queen.Came from the same graft.

#2 The Queens were all raised and Mated in the No. 1 Yard that had a worse out break of the mites and got down weak

# 3 all equipment that was on the hives was 3 years and under was about 90% most colonies had double broods with this newer equipment.

The older equipment was on 4 hives each had 1 newer brood combs and 1 old brood combs 10/12 years old.

MY thought was some time if your not careful you will select a type of bee thinking you have one that is more Resistance. when there was other factors playing an role that was not visible and what you think you have is really not what you really have.

YOU MIGHT THINK

1- hives mite tolerant could be its in a (better location.)may have mites but not under near the stress and they are not taking the toll on the colony

2-Better honey producers and they are (robber bees) they are making honey when others are not. But also at times it may bee that they are just building up and the hive making the Honey is at is full strength. a hive that does a lot of robbing will have lots of slick dark bees in them.

3- Super strong hive may Have (2 Queens )seen this many times and you think you have a super Queen.


4-Gentle Bees (a good honey flow was on)after the flow not so gentle

5-Good wintering bees dint eat much honey (what you really some times have is a poor queen)brooding very little.

yes lot of bees are Good wintering bees use low stores,you need to compare with others in the same yard with same breed and see what they are doing and compair

EXAMPLE 50 lb Stores 5 frame cluster has 2 frames with very spotted small patches of brood has eaten 15 lbs of honey.

Example 50 lb Stores have 5 frame cluster has 4 good size patches of brood an have eaten 25 lbs of stores.

it could be a poor laying queen or a v-mite problem.

Dad use to hunt bees a lot one year he found 11 trees in walking distance of their home. The summer before he married mom. He made a trip back home in the spring the following year and went to check the bee trees. There was only 1 BEE Tree alive. So it seems the fittest Survives

FITTEST SURVIVES Yes or No I would say NO not always.

Because I have seen a queen that was getting to the point she was not laying a good brood pattern.Lay ed good enough to have a decent winter cluster to get them to late winter when they started brooding again but was not as prolific as she should have been.If this was in a bee tree and they only had 15-20lbs of stores. an beens the queen wont lay lots of brood and eat not near the STORES this hive will lots of time make it to spring where they can raise a new queen,and nectar is coming in to make it the rest of the way 

Now say a queen that is up to top notch performance. was only able to go into winter and only had 15-20lbs of stores. and she started to lay in the late winter and while raising more brood needing to feed extra larvae and keep a bigger brood nest warmer may run out of stores and die.

So I would say NO the fittest didnt always survive.

and lots of times those that die out will be re occupied in the spring with other swarms looking for a nesting place.

I have taken some mighty fine bees from the wild


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Velbert, your afore mentioned issues are the reason the test of time is the most important. The more data points you have over time the better decisions you can make. Some trends in particular families of bees it may take 5-10 years to fully ascertain, perhaps longer. Brother Adam spent a life time. There will always bee room for improvement and questions to answer.
JBJ


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--However, this also means that matings between AHB drones and queens from managed colonies would be less likely than matings between drones from managed colonies and queens from managed colonies.--(Kieck)

If queen size is restricting large sized drones from mating with smaller drones, then this is assortative mating in benefit of my goals. That my smaller drones or AHB is mating with larger drones is of no consequence to me, and makes no difference in the fact that there is assortative mating restricting large drones from mating with my small drones.

Heres a copy of the study, few years ago I asked Joe Coelho and Chip Taylor if they would send me a copy. I sent it to Dave Cushmans for posting on his site.

http://dave-cushman.net/bee/sizematingpreference.html

--That takes care of some of the problems with colonies becoming Africanized, right? 

No, because although there is assortative mating restricting larger drones from mating with smaller queens, it appears from the statement below that smaller drones are in fact out competing larger drones on both fronts. This suggests, not only a size related advantage, but also a competitive advantage exists with smaller drones.

The thoraxes of both groups of copulating drones in this test weighed significantly less than those of a trapped sample of the population (Taylor, Coelho) 

--The problem, then, is that many of the 'keepers who are raising "feral" bees switch to claiming that smaller drones are simply faster and more viable than larger drones, so not only do the drones from "feral"/SC stock mate more frequently with queens from "feral"/SC stock than do drones from managed colonies, by these smaller drones from "feral"/SC stock are more likely with mate with queens from managed colonies than are drones from managed colonies. (I know, that's a tangler of an explanation. Sorry.)--(Keick)

The above quote by Taylor and Coelho suggests that smaller drones are out competing larger drones in all tests. Assuming there are reasons why this out competing is occurring, it is not out of the realm of progressive beekeeping to hypothesize a reason.

--But that's no longer "assortative mating." That's simply, "Smaller drones are more likely to mate than larger drones." That's selection. And that's likely to drive evolution. Over time, that selection should lead to smaller drones..--(Kieck)

Drones are extremely variable in size, that a model vehicle is not selling as good as others does no necessitate that they quite making it. IMO, that some workers are made small and some a bit larger is to better fit the local flora. The variation in drone size I believe is also a part of a hedging of bets and larger drones may be of benefit under certain conditions. 

--As far as defining "feral bees," I won't try to tackle that one. I know the intent is designating bees that have survived without human intervention, but another term might be more appropriate than "feral."..--(Kieck)

Well, you have the breeder that purchased his Italians and years later has no idea what they are but still calls them Italians due to the heritage. You have some giving fancy names such as North West Carnilians to breeds when they are still a Carnilian. You have Bush bees, Freds bees and Tom and Jerrys bees. Well these are feral bees.


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

JBJ

<have you assessed the morning sun factor? >

Every time I get a new location I take a compass and pick a spot that is clear from due East to South. If possable I try to have some shade SW to W. because the summers can get quite hot here, especially in the higher elevations where the sun is less filtered. I guess I could quantify this since I have a gps survey program that would allow me to plot the elevations on the horizons but that would be pretty labor intensive to do. The poor doing yards in the valley do have more afternoon shade the the better performing yards however I have a yard at 5000 feet that has much more shade all day long and it is one of my best producing yards during the time of year I use it. I guess this is one of those variables I just have to accept, but I do need to consider it. 

Velbert

<MY thought was some time if your not careful you will select a type of bee thinking you have one that is more Resistance. when there was other factors playing an role that was not visible and what you think you have is really not what you really have.>

I believe this happens in many if not most carefully controled programs. If it wasn't for this factor we would not have the phenomina that for every answer science gives us ten new questions are produced. I call it the human factor and it relates to our inability to see clearly once we have decided on an idea and the extreme difficulty we have as humans to seperate our preconcieved ideas from what we see. We can reduce that but we'll never eliminate it. Perhaps it is a good thing in the long run.


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## NW IN Beekeeper (Jun 29, 2005)

[The study also found that, although large drones tended to mate with large queens, and small drones with small queens. Smaller drones had a distinct advantage in the added ability to also mate with a larger queen.]

Good I was beginning to worry that small cell might result in small drones that would mate with only smaller inferior queens.

This appears to not be the case. 

Jeff


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--Good I was beginning to worry that small cell might result in small drones that would mate with only smaller inferior queens.--(Jeff)

The human perspective that smaller queens are associated with inferior stock is not always the case. Queens are variable in sizes, a small queen would not necessitate that the queen is inferior, large queens can also be inferior. While all queens are rather small at the time of mating, when smaller type queens are laying, many become so large they are indistinguishable from larger queen types. The best way to judge a queens performance is to judge the queen by its performance.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--Some have mentioned mere genetic saturation of one type as a barrier...

From the near perfect uniformity and body markings in the woodland ferals, it appears there is a barrier of some sort is working remarkably well.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--Good I was beginning to worry that small cell might result in small drones that would mate with only smaller inferior queens.--(Jeff)

Hello Jeff!
The human perspective that smaller queens are associated with inferior stock is not always the case. Queens are variable in sizes, a small queen would not necessitate that the queen is inferior, large queens can also be inferior. While all queens are rather small at the time of mating, when smaller type queens are laying, many become so large they are indistinguishable from larger queen types. The best way to judge a queens performance is to judge the queen by its performance.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

"The best way to judge a queens performance is to judge the queen by its performance."

Kind of circular logic there Joe. There is a correlation between queen shape and ability to lay eggs. I've had "rat tailed" queens before and they were unable to maintain a good colony. The gist of your thought is that a small queen is not necessarily a bad queen. But if she is smaller than the average for the stock you are using, suspect a problem. Saying this another way, if a queen breeder is raising queens of a particular stock and he has 9 queens of a given size and 1 queen that is smaller than the 9, then he should cull the off type. The reason for this is that the small queen is most likely a result of conditions in the queen rearing colony. Its been proven repeatedly that queens that are significantly smaller than average are inferior performers. If you want some references on this, see the work of Steve Taber.

Let me emphasize that I am not against small queens. I am using small cell combs and am used to small bees and small queens. What I am pointing out is queens that do not meet the average.

Darrel Jones


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Hi FP!

Yes, an obvious runt should be culled. But we are not talking laying queens here, but instead virgin queens. When talking virgin queens, the determination should be made after mating, some queens fill out more than others. Aside from the obvious runt, it would be rather difficult to tell a queens potential until after mating occurs.

AS I stressed earlier, resist the urge to apply human perspectives to minute differences in queen sizes. A smaller queen not noticeable smaller by the human perspective, may be sufficiency small enough to contribute to assoratative mating on a bees scale. And this is what I am refering to in small queens, NOT RUNTS.







Im sure that the queens you describe as small are what I would describe as runts, and I descrbe as small, are withen the relm of an average queen size to me.









Queens I cull that are too small I refer to as runts, not small queens.









[ December 22, 2006, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

"From the near perfect uniformity and body markings in the woodland ferals, it appears there is a barrier of some sort is working remarkably well."
JW

My first response would be to ask for how long? As in how long before a relatively "exotic" genotype interbreeds. Also phenotype tells one nothing about what recessive traits may be lurking. I would bet if one took a large sampling of these bees some genetic variation would show up with detailed genetic analysis. How big is the periphery of the area occupied by these bees?
JBJ


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

jbj,

From a genetic perspective, if 100% of the bees susceptible to mites are killed by the mites, then the only bees that survive are the ones with mite tolerance. There would be a significant degree of variation remaining in the bees when considered as a population of multiple colonies. But the very high level of selective pressure applied by the mites would require that some traits express 100% of the time in the survivors.

Gene linkage could be a partial explanation. Lets say a gene that confers mite tolerance is on the same chromosome with the gene for black body color. Since the selection pressure is very high for mite tolerance, the expression of black body color would gradually approach 100%.

I lean more toward the color of the bees drifting to a median point. This would infer that mite tolerance was selected 100% of the time and that body color was totally unselected. In these conditions, the average body color would tend to be darker than Italians and lighter than Carniolans. The probable result would be bees with 1 or at most 2 yellow bands and with each colony expressing a range of color. So far, this comes closer to explaining what I have seen.

One of the breeding possibilities we all need to consider is that there are multiple genes for mite tolerance. This is not proven, but evidence so far is overwhelmingly in favor of this. Joe could for example have a group of bees with better grooming behavior. I might have a queen with better than normal tolerance to viruses. By crossing and selecting through several generations, we could produce a bee with enhanced grooming of mites and enhanced virus tolerance.

This is one very good thing that could be done by beekeepers on this forum. All of us could watch out for the exceptional colony that has very low mite counts or other valuable traits. When found, send that queen to a breeder who would raise queens and mate them with other selected stock. Among breeders who have mite tolerant stock, an outright stock swap would be an effective tool. It would work best if done in both directions. The key to this would be that each beekeeper/breeder select stock that does best in his conditions.

Darrel Jones


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

"From a genetic perspective, if 100% of the bees susceptible to mites are killed by the mites, then the only bees that survive are the ones with mite tolerance. There would be a significant degree of variation remaining in the bees when considered as a population of multiple colonies. But the very high level of selective pressure applied by the mites would require that some traits express 100% of the time in the survivors."
Fusion

I was trying to make a point about barriers to reproduction. Sure a strong selective event has occurred and continues, but this does not preclude other Apis mellifera form reproducing with these bees at this location. Somewhere along the periphery there will be some managed hive that will contribute drones or virgins and gene flow will occur. I think Pcolar's position is that he has a very isolated population of ferals, which he probably does, however I see feral populations as a gene pool that is dynamic not static. As different breeders turn feral into managed and visa versa there will be heavy gene flow or exchange of genetic material.

The rest of your points I strongly agree with.
JBJ


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

And I have to agree with you that there is no such thing as an isolated gene pool in the U.S. No matter how much selective pressure is present, there are still non-feral colonies that have and will cross with any group of ferals. This is not a bad thing. The result of such crosses can bring together traits that are needed for survival of both groups. In fact, one of the things Joe should be doing is searching for traits that his bees need and bringing in stock to supply the genetics. It is after all the heart and soul of combination breeding.

Darrel Jones


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