# Vertical split with Queen Excluder: 0 for 2



## fatshark

I've not ... but I've reared lots of grafted queens in an upper box separated from a queenright box by a QE (sometimes without an intervening super). 

I'd suggest two things ... firstly is the Q young? It might be that the queen pheromone is simply too strong. Secondly, try notching the comb in the upper box below some suitably young larvae to encourage them to rear queen cells. 

If there's no flow on they may well not raise QC's.


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## minz

I do not know your situation in Alabama but I use it here for swarm control (Demaree) and to make a couple of cells. The idea is that you give your queen just as much room as possible, which also means that you put just as much as you can in the top deep. 
If you want QC’s notch the frame just below the eggs. If you are using wired wax try to get the notch between the wires (easy to cut them out). 
If you are still configured as you describe go into the bottom box and get two frames of open brood / eggs. Notch it and put it in the upper box. Maybe add another super between them.


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## Saltybee

Are you giving an upper entrance? 3/4 hole in the box. Having the empty with another hole below the excluder cuts down on the traffic through the top box and increases the isolation. It is a trade off between disruption and success. 0 for 2 is a big percentage change from 1 of three so do not read too much into 2 no's. 60 to 70 % making QC's is as low as I would expect , but not shocked at lower.

Ray Marler finds and places his queen in a temporary nuc. I am sure that gets a much higher %.


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## Apisherder

Thanks, I hadn't considered notching the cells. Will try that.


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## Apisherder

Thanks, Saltybee. I hadn't considered putting a hole in the empty.


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## rangerpeterj

I have never used a QE for vertical splits,but I made some snelgrove boards this spring and out of 7 splits with the SGB I got QC every time.Try to go with a double screen split board or a SGB and the queen can't pass her pheromone from the bottom box Pete


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## Apisherder

fatshark, thanks for the response. The queen is a year old and very vigorous. There is a flow on. I hadn't considered notching the cells, will try next time.


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## Apisherder

Thanks, Pete, this makes sense. And I like your track record!


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## justbee01

I was hoping to try a similar style split this year (using a queen excluder for vertical splits) and reading this has given me a bit more to consider to be successful. I'm wondering a couple things:

In order to get the best of both worlds (ie. ensure queen cells are started and share resources in a hive) would a cloake board adaptation be a better option. Basically cut off the top box completely until the queen cells are started (either with a double screen or a solid board and upper entrance) then put a queen excluder on after a day or two?

Secondly, would it make a difference to put the queen excluder on top of the bottom brood box, then the super, then the split? Would this increase the isolation of the top box? The top entrance sounds like a good idea to increase isolation as well.


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## Saltybee

It really is a sliding trade off. The more you do the higher the success rate and the higher the impact on the original hive. You can do as little as moving brood up with no exluder, as long as you are passed chilled brood weather that is pretty minimal impact. Not all bees are the same, some are stubborn, some will make QCs readily. I can't predict that looking at a hive, D S can't reading about it.
Feed and bees are more important than methods. So what is the worst if you fail? Depends on how much you put into it does it not?
Strong on bees; do more.
Short on bees; risk less and build up the bees. Taking frames up and putting empties in the brood nest might get you another queen, it is a solid bet it will get you more brood. 

The easiest, least investment method in my view is to take one frame with nurse bees. Place it in original hive location and move the original hive. If you want to get fancy from there, cull any that are capped first.


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## RayMarler

In the morning, put queen in top with sealed brood and stores, eggs and young larva in bottom with stores, queen excluder between the two. The hive will arrange itself so that more nurse bees are below.

In the evening, remove top box and move to the side on it's own stand. This creates a queenless cell starter left in place.

In 24 hours, put queen box back on top over excluder. This creates a queen right cell builder/finisher.

Now in 7-9 days, check the bottom box for cells, it should have some. If so, then move the bottom box to it's own stand, somewhat away from the original, in the same yard. This creates a mating nuc that loses it's field force by the time the cells emerge, so reducing chances of it to swarm. Cell builders need population, mating nucs not so much. If the resources are there when you move the box of cells away, split it into two nucs of equality of stores and sealed brood and queen cells. This will give you 2 nuc splits.


With all these posts lately about doing vertical splits, are you all trying to get a queen raised and mated in a stack that already has a queen in it? ... Thereby creating a two queen hive? or what? I don't let cells emerge and then try to mate in a stack that already has a queen. I separate the cells off to mate without a queen present at all.


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## Apisherder

Thanks, all. It seems there are a lot of ways I can modify my technique. I genuinely appreciate the feedback and the time spent in preparing it.


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## awootton

RayMarler said:


> In the morning, put queen in top with sealed brood and stores, eggs and young larva in bottom with stores, queen excluder between the two. The hive will arrange itself so that more nurse bees are below.
> 
> In the evening, remove top box and move to the side on it's own stand. This creates a queenless cell starter left in place.
> 
> In 24 hours, put queen box back on top over excluder. This creates a queen right cell builder/finisher.
> 
> Now in 7-9 days, check the bottom box for cells, it should have some. If so, then move the bottom box to it's own stand, somewhat away from the original, in the same yard.


I'm really impressed with this method of splitting, seems to tick lots of boxes


 doesn't require special equipment (such as Snelgrove board)
 no need to find the queen (just shake the frames into top box before inserting into bottom box)
 creates ideal cell raising conditions (queenless starter, queenright finisher)
 no need to worry about having enough nurse bees in the split

So what do we call it, is it the Marler Method (!) or has it been around for ever and I just haven't come across it?


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## RayMarler

I would love to take the credit, but alas, it's from Doolittle, late 1800's or very early 1900. It only makes a few cells, in a superceder type environment. Doolittle didn't separate the boxes at the first setup, I made that change.


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## awootton

RayMarler said:


> I would love to take the credit, but alas, it's from Doolittle, late 1800's or very early 1900. It only makes a few cells, in a superceder type environment. Doolittle didn't separate the boxes at the first setup, I made that change.


I'd always associated Doolittle with wax cups and grafting. Your move of the box off and back on, rather than doing the split at the outset is what impresses me. Winter here, so no chance to try it for a while.


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## RayMarler

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_...field-keywords=a+year's+work+in+an+out-apiary

I read about it in that book, A Year's Work in an Out-Apiary... by Doolittle.

Not as well known or read as his Scientific Queen Rearing book.


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## RedBarn

http://www.thebeeyard.org/rearing-queens-via-the-cloake-board-method/

I haven't tried this "Cloake Board" method yet, but am in the process of making up 8 nuc boxes, making a few cloake boards, making some nuc bottom boards, covers, inner covers, and hoping to start up a few new nucs for me and a few to sell and re-coop some of my money come spring of 2018 !!!

This Cloake Board method seems nice and easy, sounds like it works with grafting or with just letting the bees build the Queen Cells on my wax foundation frames... 

Any tips from anyone that has used this method with out the grafting or queen cups ?


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## gww

Here is a free copy of what ray linked to.
http://www.honeybee.bz/Doolittle.pdf
Cheers
gww
PS Believe me, the way ray explained it is much easier then reading old english and coming up with this.


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## RayMarler

gww said:


> gww
> PS Believe me, the way ray explained it is much easier then reading old english and coming up with this.


LOL gww.

This might be a good year to try it on some of your hives huh? Let us all know your results!

Doolittle was always one of my favourite authors. His Scientific queen rearing is an absolute must read, along with the Year's Work in an Out-Apiary. Much to be learned from those two writings.


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## gww

Ray
The way you connect the dots for doolittle makes it tempting and who knows. I might try it. I really like What lauri calls the fly back split where you just find the queen, put her in a box and place it where the hive is sitting and move the origional hive and almost all the stores. It will not accomplish creating a cell builder but I am thinking the old hive that was moved should make a couple of extra queen cells that I can steel for more splits. What I liked about this split is that all the foragers end up with the queen and since they are foragers, you don't have to feed them as much and the old hive has all the stores and no new brood and so I may not have to feed them as much. That is the theory anyway. I can't think of a use with only eight hives to need to have a cell builder for more then one round of queens cause I don't have enough bees to use that many queens. 

However, they way you explain it being so easy and the way I wake up in a new day and all of a sudden just do something, it might be what you explaind that gets done rather then what I thought I was going to do. Either way, I am glad you put it in writeing, cause you made it very simple to understand.
Cheers
gww


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## clyderoad

RayMarler said:


> I would love to take the credit, but alas, it's from Doolittle, late 1800's or very early 1900. It only makes a few cells, in a superceder type environment. Doolittle didn't separate the boxes at the first setup, I made that change.


I'm pleased to see you draw attention to Doolittle Ray. A timeless resource.
Many would be well served to read and understand his work instead of most of the modern day beekeeping junk out there.

Hoping you are well and have a good year with your bees.


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## RayMarler

gww
Yes a fly back split does very well also, very good way to make splits. The main hive moved away will draw many good cells and can be split up into 2 or more nucs with frames of built out queen cells if increase is desired.


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## RayMarler

clyderoad said:


> I'm pleased to see you draw attention to Doolittle Ray. A timeless resource. Many would be well served to read and understand his work instead of most of the modern day beekeeping junk out there...


I can not agree more. Some don't care for his writing style, but I always enjoyed reading him very much.


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## gww

Ray


> I can not agree more. Some don't care for his writing style, but I always enjoyed reading him very much.


I loved reading doolittle and miller and langstroth and abby warre. As for as the writing styles. If you are new and learning terms modern day, it takes a few reads when you run into things like "I swarmed the hive" It does come together but also does take some practice and a few times through maybe even backed up with questions about it on a forum like this. It is neat that you find little things like where the queen is in the middle of the day or other little odd facts that I forget most of. It gets your brain thinking of how things work.

It also show that even though some things are put in a new light, things are also really the same in a lot of ways after all these years. Some things are just right no matter when they happen when pertaining to bees. However, your explination is pretty clear for modern day bee keepers.
Cheers
gww


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## ktg

I've only used a Snelgrove board (double screened board). I've had 100% success with them so far.


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## sakhoney

Ray is right - old queen on top with little brood - just frames - she will continue to lay up top while the bottom will think its queenless and start cells.


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