# Help needed with bee ID, and suggestions on when to order queen.



## iND (May 23, 2012)

Hello,

(In southwest corner of Wisconsin.)

Can you help me guess at what type of bees these are -- I know that they are honey bees, but what breed? 

Video 1: http://youtu.be/vhvfeP706Ck
Video 2: http://youtu.be/Q21vPJf-PJM

Also:


What time of day should I set the trap out? I will be trying to direct them into a hive body, or trapping box of some sort.
When should I order the new queen for trapped out bees: before I begin the trapping, or after I have enough bees trapped?
What type of queen should I order if I don't know the bee variety?

I have more pics, but they are not uploading . . . .


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Why don't you just leave them alone unless someone has deemed it critical for removal? Variety doesn't matter, they'll either accept her or not, depending on how well you introduce might make it a little more amenable. Get a queen from a variety that you think fits your needs, but honestly I would rather leave them alone if they're not bothering anyone. Do you have brood or drawn comb available? Just throwing bees in a box isn't too logical with nothing to keep them to stay. Even having a queen there might not do it, they'll just take off and fly home without brood and you have no nurse bees or food stores. If you want to start beekeeping, honestly, purchase a good nuc or established colony rather than robbing foragers from a hive and trying to stick a queen in there. I'm assuming your new from your questions and quality of video. They're obviously AHB from the way they fly in and out of that hole.


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## Nmace (Apr 4, 2012)

I suggest you do a search on this site for Hogan Trap and then send a message to Mr. Cleo Hogan Jr. he will provide you with some great plans for a trap.

I assume you are wanting the bees to start beekeeping. If so, start reading now and ask questions. You will need to have a plan and equipment ready when you start trapping. This is generally a great site to get feedback. Go to the library and see if you can checkout some beekeeping books as well. You also might want to see if look into a local beekeeping club and finding a mentor who can help you and give advice. They might be willing to lead you through the trapout. I did a quick search and this appears to have Grant County, WI http://statelinebee.com/2012/about But there might be others closer or better for you.

The type of bee is not important...if they are feral in Wisconsin, they are probably mutts. 

JRG13...so kind of you to suggest they are AHB from the way they fly. Very kind.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I thought it was funny..... did you even watch the video..... just admit it, you thought it was funny too. I was hoping Daniel would reply because he brought up the topic if you want useful responses, then learn to take useful photographs/videos. I thought I brought up some very valid points though underneath my attempt at humor. And lets be honest here, trapping out queenless bees and iND probably not having any equipment ready to go (assuming this just based on his/her post) is not going to be the best way to start beekpeeing. I thought I was pretty clear though, if he/she wants to try it, get some frames of brood and food, and maybe drawn comb and get a queen they would like and go at it or just buy a nuc/established hive and leave those ferals alone or come back for them later when better equipped for it... I just hate someone new going about it the hard way, that's all and pointing out in a maybe not so nice but blunt way, that taking a vid of where you can barely see bees and askiing for someone to tell you what variety is, is pretty funny. I mean, i was borderline on the whole post being a joke in the first place.


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

AHB in Wisconsin? Doesn't it get a whole lot colder in Wisconsin than what AHB can survive?
Or what am I missing?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I'm sorry, my attempt at humor was bad apparently. When I watched the video, I was hard pressed to even see the bees... maybe I need to get my eyes checked....


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

All I saw was flying dots looking like they're doing orientation flights.


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

You could open feed them until they load everything up and swarm.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Steven Ogborn said:


> All I saw was flying dots looking like they're doing orientation flights.


That's why I thought it was funny, you can barely make out they're bees, let alone make any type of varietal conclusion.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Make you a trap, get the queen, remove them, let the tree make themselves a new queen, return in 5 weeks and trap again. You don't hurt the tree colony and you get yourself a new colony. Just don't trap too late into the season as they, (the colony you trap and the tree) needs to build back up before winter.

If you don't have the trap information and photos of traps in progress, e-mail me and I will send them to you. [email protected]

Also search and read the posts entitled, How to get the queen from a trapout. lots of good info there.

cchoganjr


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## iND (May 23, 2012)

Ok, there seems to be a little confusion here. Maybe you are all taking the cue from the first response, but I am not completely novice. I _am_ new to trapouts. I have taken a course, worked with bees for part of a season, and have read a number of basic beekeeping books. I have two empty hives, a full suit, and various other random bee paraphernalia. I have discussed beekeeping with some experts, and count a few beekeepers as friends. 

Just need some advice about trapouts. I have watched videos, and have seen some people staple/nail/tape a one-way screen to a tree before in a very clumsy manner. I have been suggested to use PVC pipe to make it easier to direct the bees. I have a few ideas about how to get and keep them in the box with only foundation . . . mostly it would be screening them in, moving them to a new location, keeping them in the dark for two days with the new queen, and then opening up the hive and hoping for the best.

If that is a good plan, then what I want to know is the best time of day to start the trapout, the timing on when to order a queen, and what type of bees these currently are. I know the videos are bad (the ending of the videos is better than the beginnings, somewhat), but it is 15 feet up in the tree, and I did not have my good camera with me. I could not get close enough to them myself, so I thought someone might see a pattern of flight that they recognized. It was a very hot day, around 3pm, and near a river and many flowers are currently in bloom. I could not find any dead bees on the ground, but this is in a more naturalized area with ants, etc., so it makes sense that it is clean. 

It is very poor taste -- especially if you think I am a novice -- to joke that some bees are AHBs. This would of course lead to spraying the bees, and other stupid actions. But I am new to this site, so I guess this is how I develop a thick skin, right?

I will look into drawing out the queen. I had not thought that was possible, so did not know to search. Thanks!


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

iND...I will try to help you. First, the type of bee that they are does not really matter in a trapout. If you get the queen you can continue the genetic line, but if you take starts and insert a new queen, the genetics of the new queen will be all hers in 4 to 8 weeks (in the Summer).

Time of day to start traput. Before daylight or after dark, so the bees will orient on the front of the trap, not on the rear if they are already in the field when you place the trap.

Don't order a queen until you know you have enough bees to start a new colony. With unsealed brood in the trap, or on the combs that you move, the bees will stay attached for several days. Without inserting a queen, they may even start a queen cell to try to save themselves. 

I don't know enough about pattern of flights, and the photos are too far for me to identify the bees.

cchoganjr


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## iND (May 23, 2012)

Thanks for the reply. This helps a lot.

Still concerned about not having any brood, but I'll see if a local beekeeper has any available.


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## WPG (Mar 28, 2010)

iND said:


> Ok, there seems to be a little confusion here. I have discussed beekeeping with some experts, and count a few beekeepers as friends.
> 
> ... so I thought someone might see a pattern of flight that they recognized.
> 
> ...


Listen to Cleo, he's good. And patient.

By some of your questions, your beekeeping friends and advisors must have been pulling your leg with some of their stories and advice.

That's why some here may have thought you were pulling ours.

If you had a handfull of dead AHB(Africanized Honey Bees, rather than American Honey Bees) you wouldn't know it. 
You would need a microscope and know what to look for and how to measure tiny differences.

The only flight pattern that might indicate that they might be AHB's would be if they _*all*_ came flying out of the hive after you like a disturbed nest of hornets and chased you until you dropped.

Having a thick skin as a beekeeper would help alot. I'm not there yet.

Reread some of those lessons you took, and read some more books and forum posts by the experienced beeks.

I've noticed about half of the bee videos on YouTube are made by rank video amatuers and they know even less about bees. 
But they think they're good at both. 
It will take awhile for you to tell the difference.

Starting beekeeping by doing a trap-out is about the most difficult way to start.
You have a high chance of killing the bees and getting discouraged.

You need a mentor.

Goodluck


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Quote WPG ("The only flight pattern that might indicate that they might be AHB's would be if they _*all*_ came flying out of the hive after you like a disturbed nest of hornets and chased you until you dropped.")


WPG you nailed that one. If they are AHB, the flight pattern will be 10,000 bees on final decent, with you the runway. Won't do any good to contact the tower, they will land anyway.

cchoganjr


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

JRG13, this is probably a completely unnecessary and useless correction but it is a peeve of mine. I did not say anything of the sort about useful information or useful photos. I said this group needs information to help beekeepers get better photos. Your drastically failed attempt to quote me or carry on my message makes it sound like I am criticizing the beekeeper when in fact I am criticizing this groups belief that it assists beekeepers. I also did not insult the poster with my comment. In fact my entire comment surrounded the fact that few people begin beekeeping with the intent to develop there photography skills. so own your insults and don't try to drag me into your ditch.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

iND, I recently saw a trap out using Cleo's box and a piece of foam from a couch cushion as the gasket between box and tree trunk. the thread is on these forums somewhere but I cannot locate it again. It worked very well for that person.

As for the humor or sarcasm. No need for thick skin if the members of this group where not so abrasive. Once again the flaw is not in you. 
Also the video criticism must come from someone that has very little experience handling a camera when zooming in. In the future you might try kneeling down and bracing your elbow against your knee. or grabbing a long stick that you can hold against the ground held against the body of the camera to help steady it. it is a method of improvising a Unipod and helps camera movement considerably. The kneeling down and bracing your camera arm is making a tripod from your body. two feet and your arm in contact with a sold surface create three points of contact. the elbow of your camera hand being planted reduces movement of that hand. the lost 3 feet of distance or so does not really mater that much when the image becomes steady. you end up with a further distance but clearer view.

Otherwise take your beekeeping advice from beekeepers and take their photography advice with a grain of salt. sort of like asking your barber about auto repairs.

good luck with your bee catching.


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## iND (May 23, 2012)

Dainel Y, thanks for the video tips. I was in a rush, and my camera is terrible for video no matter what . . . but the stick trick is something I will definitely use in the future. I have been talking with Cleo, and he has been extremely helpful. His trapping method seems very low-impact all around. (In response to your footer, a little knowledge without understanding that it is only "little" is dangerous, but we all start somewhere. When time is critical, we have to start acting on what we know, even if not fully informed.)

I saw one of the couch cushion trapping posts, though the beekeeper switched over to wire mesh after a time. May not be the same post as you were thinking of though. In general, I am reticent about introducing anything petroleum where the bees can get to it, otherwise I might think about a quick-setting caulk or rubber gaskets. 

WPG, I have never talked with anyone about catching wild bees until recently. My lessons and experience have been with packaged bees, as if nature did not exist. Probably the reason for that was what you said -- difficulty in starting beekeeping with a feral colony. Thanks for the tips, and I do now have the Dadant tome (the one about 3 inches thick), but I still am not finding capturing bees in the index or TOC; I think this site may be more useful all around.


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