# Pros and Cons of Oxalic Acid?



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What are the pros and cons of drenching?

Pros, no vapors to protect yourself from. No special devices needed.

Cons, you can only treat once or you shorten the lives of the bees too much, which makes me think that once is damaging them somewhat and twice is just damaging them more. The damage is to the malpighian tubules. Vaporizing can be done several times with no noticeable shortening of the bees lives.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael Bush;363620 Vaporizing can be done several times with no noticeable shortening of the bees lives.[/QUOTE said:


> And with no noticable effect on the varroa mites.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>And with no noticable effect on the varroa mites.

No, I would say about an 85 to 95% kill on all phoretic Varroa with vaporization.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

>>And with no noticable effect on the varroa mites.

that's certainly not the results I see in my backyard
around here vaporized OA makes mites a non-issue
what do you base this statement on?

Dave


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

OA dribbling only has to be done once and you don't have to wait for the cluster to break up, but you do have to open the hive. Michael Bush is correct if you do it more than once you can kill the hive. I is my opinion that vapor is not as harsh but not as effective.


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## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

*intersting?*

I have seen positive results in hives using OA but didn't understand what harm might be done by introducing acids. I have heard of one beek that vaporizes twice two weeks apart in the spring to knock the mites back for most of the season. Seemed like drenching would be easier but sounds like there is definatley a down side.

Thanks for input!!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

drobbins said:


> >>And with no noticable effect on the varroa mites.
> 
> that's certainly not the results I see in my backyard
> around here vaporized OA makes mites a non-issue
> ...


I used OA vapor for 3 years. First two years, I vaporized all colonies in the middle of November. Most colonies should be broodless by that time in Vermont.

Third year, I vaporized 3 times in September...according to the directions of Heinz at Heilyser technologies...and again in mid-November. I did mite counts before and after treatments during the 3rd year. There wasn't much change.

I know that other studies show 90-95% effectiveness with OA vapor. I know that colonies have to be broodless when treating for varroa with OA. It just didn't work well enough in my situation.

I can come up with two reasons why the OA vapor wasn't effective. 

1. The colonies weren't broodless. Most colonies shut down brood rearing here in October, so I vaporized in mid-November. I really couldn't wait any longer, as the low temperature for vaporizing is 5 degrees above freezing. We were right on or just above that temperature during all the November treatments.

2. The clusters were too tight, and the vapors couldn't penetrate. This may be the reason, but I really can't be sure.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

hmm,

I've had pretty good luck here
I can imagine that maybe your colder weather might result in a tight cluster that causes problems
I just feel funny about dripping cold liquid on bees in cold weather
others do it
it works
but it seems extreme to me
I treat at Christmas and around here we can count on getting a day up in the 40's if not the 50's so they're moving around a bit
I guess all beekeeping is local

Dave


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Oaxalic acid source.*

I need a good source for oaxalic acid.
I thought that I would try it out on a test block of bees this November.
Here in southern California it's difficult to do an August or September Apiguard treatment. We get a few days of decent weather for treating the bees and then the temperatures soar into the high 90's or even 104 degrees F.
Regards,
Ernie


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## ScadsOBees (Oct 2, 2003)

I had good luck with vaporized OA killing mites. Then again, it also killed 4 out of 5 queens. Bummer. I did something wrong, but I don't know what, and I'm not interested in finding out what either. Many others have used it successfully, so it was obviously something I did wrong.

Apiguard has done really well for me so I don't care anymore.

Rick


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

BEES4U said:


> I need a good source for oaxalic acid.


I get 7# pails here for a good price.......... they have 
smaller quantities as well. Laboratory grade, I feel more
comfortable with this rather than wood bleach and the
like.

http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_G_R-Oxalic_Acid.html


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## nmallardi (Apr 15, 2008)

*oa sources*

hi there - i bought this oxalic acid on amazon - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FGLRRO

also found this...


http://www.cheap-chemicals.com/filt...rase-_-+--+1768559063|-|100000000000000000620


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

What kind of OA concentration/carrier solution/volume are you guys talking about. The Europeans seem to have a fairly vigorous debate as to the "best" OA solution to use for a single treatment.


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## 67630 (Jul 17, 2008)

I only tried oxalic vapor treatment this year, I was a bit nervous to treat all at once because of what I have heard about killing queens. I did lose 1 colony but not to the treating. It was from waiting too long to treat. How many people who have used vapor have lost queens and why is that.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Cowen has a commercial unit avaliable now, costly, so vapourizing dam well better be effective!
I wonder if some of the problem is with the crack pipe itself. The OA needs a constant temperature to vapourize in, not too cold, not too hot. Cowen's machine regulates the burnoff temp,


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

*Check my math.*

O.K. So we're after 3.4%
Check my math, and don't forget to add in the crystals.
Warm 1 gallon of distilled water, dump it in a plastic bucket.
Add 3/4 lb oxalic acid crystals and stir into solution with wooden dowel.
Add one gallon of heavy syrup, stir.
Bingo!


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

HarryVanderpool said:


> O.K. So we're after 3.4%
> Check my math, and don't forget to add in the crystals.
> Warm 1 gallon of distilled water, dump it in a plastic bucket.
> Add 3/4 lb oxalic acid crystals and stir into solution with wooden dowel.
> ...


Was the heavy syrup made with distilled water too?


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Ian said:


> Cowen has a commercial unit avaliable now, costly, so vapourizing dam well better be effective!
> I wonder if some of the problem is with the crack pipe itself. The OA needs a constant temperature to vapourize in, not too cold, not too hot. Cowen's machine regulates the burnoff temp,


How much are they asking for it? I see that it can handle up to 4 colonies at a time if the additional nozzles are purchased.


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

One big "con" that seems to get forgotton: oxalic acid is not approved as a pesticide in bee hives in the United States.

Using OA in U. S. bee hives would, therefore, be illegal.


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## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

In many countries it is an accepted organic practice. I know several commercial and hobbyist beeks who have great results with late December or early January dribble applications. I got to see some of their bees first hand in the almonds in February and they looked great with an 8+ frame averages. another pro I would list is that it is very affordable.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

*Keep it legal!*



Kieck said:


> One big "con" that seems to get forgotton: oxalic acid is not approved as a pesticide in bee hives in the United States.
> 
> Using OA in U. S. bee hives would, therefore, be illegal.


You are absolutly right, Kieck!
I would never dream of using oxalic acid as a pesticide in honey bee hives, or anything else illegal.
I have found however, that if you use it as a food additive in sugar syrup and force-fed during times that they are too clustered to take from a feeder, It really does wonders for their health!
Say, 5ml between each frame.
You know, I like a squeeze of lemon in my tea, a little vinigar in my salad dressing.
There are many LEGAL examples of lowering PH in food. I certainly would not classify those examples as pesticides.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>One big "con" that seems to get forgotton: oxalic acid is not approved as a pesticide in bee hives in the United States.
Using OA in U. S. bee hives would, therefore, be illegal.

Unless your from Canada, our Canadian Honey Counceil has warked hard to get the I 's dotted and the T ' s crosses to make it avaliable to Canadian beekeepers,


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Ian,

do you have a handy link to the recipe that is approved in Canada?
I saw one once, I know it's the dribble method, but I don't have a link to it
I'm sure some folks would like to read it

Dave


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Bingo

Yup, Bingo! You just got yourself a natural treatment that is soo hard on the bees that youd better not treat them twice within a season. It tends to burn them badly inside and out. Often wonder how well the queen would hold out with this treatment, probably would want to think of annual requeening.
Its such an easy treatment to prepair, and cheap, and fairly easy to apply ( as long as your conditions warrent ) BUT watch out, dont mis apply, its hard on your bees!

It is real effective against the mites when used during a broodless period of time,

>>do you have a handy link to the recipe that is approved in Canada?

Yup dave, Ill find a link right now,


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/crops/honey/bha02s00.html


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

interesting
when I saw OA get approval in Canada it was only for the dribble method
it appears from your link that vaporization is now approved as well
I've used the vapor method with good results
something about dripping cold wet stuff on bees in winter doesn't seem right to me

Dave


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>How much are they asking for it?

I inquired a few months ago, just before they had things together and started shipping out, They were talking 5000-8000$ per complete unit. But, that was then, and I havent gotten a quote back from them yet, with a more of an accurate price.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

*Can you help me out?*



Ian said:


> >>Bingo
> 
> Yup, Bingo! ,


So were you going to check my math, or did you just want to play bingo?


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> I would never dream of using oxalic acid as a pesticide in honey bee hives, or anything else illegal. -Harry Vanderpool


Some beekeepers have been caught and fined for using oxalic acid in bee hives. I wonder how well the "food additive" argument would hold up against a pesticide enforcement action.


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## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

*illegal?*

Are inspectors required to report all beekeepers who they feel are treating w/oxalic? Sounds to me like it is a viable treatment option. I have also heard that some beekeepers in Canada have developed some lung problems due to this stuff. For me, I have purchased the appropriate respirator and tried a few colonies last month. I did go back and check the results, unfortunatly, I didn't have sticky boards. I did notice more then a few dead bees outside the hives but also notice the same on others that didn't get treated.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>So were you going to check my math, or did you just want to play bingo?


Harry, check out my earlier link,

http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/crops/honey/bha02s00.html


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## suttonbeeman (Aug 22, 2003)

Kieck.. so I guess we use chumophus (sp) which is LEGAL....contaminates the wax for years, is hell on drones not good for bees or maybe apistan...it also gets in the wax and has should I say ...no good effects on bees! So how do we get oxalic acid approved....no one is going top make BIG$$$ so whos going to go thru all the gov. red tape to get it approved.....we got formic approved but its cost per treatment is thru the roof! You can buy it for a few cents per colony but that would be ILLEGAL!! So since it doesnt contaminate honey why are you so concerned that "its legal" ?? You seen like one of those PC (politically correct) people who dont understand use of common sense.....I DARE some gov idiot to fine me for using oxalic acid....I would probably end up in jail and he in the hospital for an extended period of time....I just have no understanding of being PC or lack of common sence.....not advocating the use oxalic acid instead of "LEGAL" mitecides which may end up in honey and definately in the wax affecting our bees and worrying about being "legal" just even though its safe makes me scratch my head! I used chumophus the first yr it was out, never since and NEVER will again BUT ITS LEGAL!!!!!!!!!!! because of $$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

suttonbeeman,

I'm not trying to equate "legal" with "good" or "illegal" with "bad," just trying to point out one of the "cons" of oxalic acid use (the topic of this thread, remember?). Whether or not oxalic acid "should" be approved for use in bee hives is a different matter; at this time, it is not in the U. S., and beekeepers caught using it may face some pretty stiff fines.

For the big operators, paying any fines for using oxalic acid and continuing to use the product may make cents (and I do mean "cents," not "sense"). Of course, neonicotinoids may be better to use in bee hives than organophosphates, or even than some "natural" products, but that doesn't make them legal pesticides for bee hives use, either.

papar,

I suspect that most bee inspectors would have little or no idea if a beekeeper was using oxalic acid, and I suspect that some inspectors would not even realize that oxalic acid is not an approved pesticide. I also suspect that most would not ignore evidence because, if caught ignoring evidence, they might also face penalties. I don't know -- maybe an inspector will be able to chime in on this one.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

wasn't there some info around about the AHPA getting data from the Canadians and trying to get OA legalized?
what happened to that??

Dave


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>So since it doesnt contaminate honey why are you so concerned that "its legal" ?? 

Got to watch out for tolerances in your product for sale. Just becasue its natural doesnt make it okay to have it contaminate your produce. Thats the job of your government, to make sure the product will be used in such a way that it will not compermise your product. 



>>BUT ITS LEGAL!!!!!!!!!!! because of $$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!


Who do you expect to pay the bill for approving these natural kind of products? Here in Canada, we the beekeepers raised a good portion of the funds to appove Oxalic use in Canada. You cant expect the government to flip the bill for all those alternative treatments out there, nor would the tax payer accept that. There has to be point where the user or the vendor themselves has to upfrount the cost of registration, if they are going to see the benifet of using the product.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

OA is not a pesticide any more than gasoline is. Is sugar an approved treatment? Didn't think so....


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>OA is not a pesticide any more than gasoline is

You probably dont want OA in your honey, just as you dont want to find gasoline in your honey. Probably dont want sugar in it either,
Just becasue you dont classify the substance as a pesticide, doesnt mean its okay to find it in your honey. It s the responsability of your government to demonstrate methods of delivery from studdy of that substance that will not harm your honey, bees or yourself.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Yep, same government that approved all those good meds for people that are now banned. Oh, and they also support tobacco for consumption. Give me a break....


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Dribbling oxalic acid is a very good method to rid a colony of varroa. It's great if you use singles, that way no need to crack boxes. I had a situation once where we just had to do it quickly and we applied the oxalic on the second box only, all 50 ml. We would not have been able to complete the task on time had we cracked the colonies in 2. We killed plenty of varroa and saved the colonies. Personally I prefer 1 guy to fill syringes (they cost $2-3 each) and the rest of the crew to drizzle the bees rather than a backpack sprayer. Overdosing can and does kill the weaker hives, probably strong ones as well. The tricky part for the larger outfits is making sure the hired hands are applying the right amounts. That's why I prefer pre measured syringes. Syringes are cheap, they work in the cold. They last 2-3 days and get replaced. I have not used this method over the span of many seasons. I could see it being usefull for the migratory guys who move the bees south, when they are broodless. Typically colonies start brooding again and this is when they get treated.

Gotta go.

Jean-Marc


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Give me a break....


And that has what to do with beekeeping?

So whats the deal, your against regulation? I dont like it either, yet there is a place for it.

Why do you think the honey from China is showing up traces of unwanted substances? Too many small beekeepers using any and every natural and chemical treatment on their hives, too many beekeepers for the government to control or handle, unalbe to manage the small quantities from every direction getting mixed into the same pot for sale.


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## Tom G. Laury (May 24, 2008)

*Talking sense*

Excellent points Ian. You are speaking directly to the REAL ISSUES at hand.:thumbsup:


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## Kieck (Dec 2, 2005)

> OA is not a pesticide any more than gasoline is. -Ross


Oxalic acid is not a pesticide? Why use it in bee hives, then?

Oh, and by the way, gasoline is not approved as a pesticide in bee hives, either.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Oxalic acid is sold as wood bleach. Some beekeepers cannot stand it when their frames darken with age.


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## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

*Residues in honey*

Ian :

I don't believe for one minute that the reason of unwanted residues in chinese honey is because of small renegade beekeepers putting "natural and chemical substances on their hives". It is more likely that the governement told the small beekeeper to put whatever substance in their hive and gave them the product.

Jean-Marc


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

I stand corrected......


> EPA Definition
> A pesticide is any substance or mixture of substances intended for preventing, destroying, repelling, or mitigating any pest. Pests can be insects, mice and other animals, unwanted plants (weeds), fungi, or microorganisms like bacteria and viruses. Though often misunderstood to refer only to insecticides, the term pesticide also applies to herbicides, fungicides, and various other substances used to control pests. Under United States law, a pesticide is also any substance or mixture of substances intended for use as a plant regulator, defoliant, or desiccant.


Of course, this means that honey is also a pesticide.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

>>Of course, this means that honey is also a pesticide.

also, if used properly, a brick:scratch:

Dave


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## Aspera (Aug 1, 2005)

Given the extensive amount of testing done on OA trickling in Europe and Canada, it seems like the EPA should be able to give OA a section 18 approval or something of the sort.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>also, if used properly, a brick

Exactly.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

I have been told that the Chinese government distributes drugs/chemicals to the beekeepers, so they use the flavor of the day.I cannot confirm this, though it seems likely given the almost universal finding of chloramphenicol in their exported honey.So much so, that it was being used as a marker to identify Chinese honey being exported under other countries labels(circumvention).
There has been much research done on residues of oxalic in other countries than the US.There is no interest in getting gov approval here as there is NO money to be made. No 3 bucks a strip kind of money.I am quite sure that fluvalinate and coumaphos are much bigger residue problems.


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## loggermike (Jul 23, 2000)

Heres one for you:
http://www.emea.europa.eu/pdfs/vet/mrls/089103en.pdf


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

*Oxalic acid data*

Thank you for the detailed data!
Ernie:thumbsup:


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I don't believe for one minute that the reason of unwanted residues in chinese honey is because of small renegade beekeepers putting "natural and chemical substances on their hives". It is more likely that the governement told the small beekeeper to put whatever substance in their hive and gave them the product.


Hi Jean-Marc,

I dont agree with your comments, I am not talking about the renagade beekeepers who mis use chemical and non chemical treatments, I dont feel these beekeepers are renagades. Chinese farming is a totally different enterprise than that of here in North America, and much of the world. We are talking small scale farming, very small, very poor farmers, and alot of them. The average farm size in China is 5 acres, enough livestock to count on your hands, and intensively manually managed. Compared to the average farm in North America, these guys pretty much sell what ever they dont need to live on. We manage to scale and profitability, in a closely regulated industry.
The Chinese farmers are farming in an environment polluted mostly from commercial development , I dont see how they are able to produce a non contaminated food

Its easier to assure food quality with larger and fewer scale operations. No matter how much we hate to say that, its the truth. 
China is one of the biggest food producers in the world, with a country of very small scale agriculture. Now try to control the quality of food production where most all the food produced is gathered amoungst many farmers taking it to market. How would you ever pin point the source of contaminate? Youd pretty much have to do a wide scale wipping sweep of an area to rid of a production quality issue. 
A good example of this just happened, with Melomine in milk samples. A practice from a few dairy farmers, who truely felt they were managing thier production with the aid of a chemical agent, ending up sickening and hurting many people. They pretty much had to wipe the shelves clean of most every milk product to assure the contaminate was no longer avaliable for sale.
That doesnt happen in North America, when we observe production quality issues and concerns, we are not only able to pin point its source of production and all inputs put into that production, we are able to source its total retail distribution and recall only the product that had been effected without disturbing the distribution of all the rest of the produce avaliable. Our system is so efficient and so quick, we are able to releive contaminate issues with out wasting the vast quantity of food we have avaliable. It works soo well, that rairly do we hear of problem associated to food production, processing, and our population doesnt acknoledge food illness as a true risk of eating anymore.

thier government isnt big enought to be able to control or regulate the management actions of the Chinese farmers


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## beekuk (Dec 31, 2008)

Have been using oxalic at 3.2% and using the trickle method for 6 years now,no bad effects on the bee's. Have also tried sublimation,works just as well,but far more labour intensive and more risk to the beekeeper,re vapour.


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## papar (Apr 10, 2007)

*Dribble method?*

I have a question about spraying/dribbling the bees w/solution of oxalic. I think I understand the amount to give and how to apply it. My questions is, do you have to rely on the solution to come in contact with as many bees as possible (working on contact) or does it work diffently by getting moved through the hive?

Thanks for all the comments!


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