# Does A New Beekeeper Need An OAV Set-up?



## Hobo (Mar 4, 2014)

This question is not directed to the treatment-free beekeepers and it is not intended to stir up a debate whether one should treat or not treat. 

A lot of advice I have read says a beekeeper should have equipment and supplies on hand so you have them when you need them, e.g. an extra hive for a swam and extra supers for when you need to expand the hive. 

What should a beginner do to be prepared for mites? I plan to begin with five nucs in April. Should I go ahead and buy an OAV set-up and a supply of oxalic acid so I will have it when I need it? Is there some other method better suited to a new beekeeper?


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

learn to test for mites and do counts. that's all you need to start. join a local club and learn from other members if possible. good luck


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

If you plan to treat and that is the method you plan to use then yes, if you plan to use a different method then no.....Treatments are like fire extinguishers.............better to have one on hand and not need it, than to need it and not have it.


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

Before spending money on that device, I would just plan to treat with either apivar (amitraz) or apiguard (thymol) for the first year. I also advise that you learn to count mites. However, for the first year, I'd recommend that you treat every hive for mites that first year. If you see a high mite count or symptoms of mite problems, treat then. Otherwise, just treat them around July or August. 

I'm sure lots of people will disagree and say "why treat if the mite levels don't justify it." Other people may say "why count mites if you are going to treat anyway." The simple answer, IMO, is that you can have a mite explosion from August to September. A new beek has plenty enough to learn without having mite-related problems. So just prophylactically treat all the hives on a schedule that first year, and worry about IPM and/or treatment-free ideas later, if you want. You should still count the mites to get a feel for what is going on in your hives, how the mite levels change, make sure the treatments work, and to learn to count mites so later on you can have more confidence to take a more IPM approach. 

Do a mite count with either a sticky board or sugar roll when within about 2 weeks of getting the hives set up. Then check them about two months latter. Do it again before and after you treat. Then do it again going into winter (October).

If you do have a substantial mite count going into winter, and assuming OA become legal as people seem to think is about to happen (hope so), then you could do an OA dribble in November/December if you want to use OA. You need to wait until they are broodless to do that.


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## Hobo (Mar 4, 2014)

Thanks for the replies. Neil, your advice makes sense and sounds like a good way for me to go my first year. I know I will need to learn how to gauge my mite load and how to manage it and that will only come with experience. 

I have joined a bee club and a few experienced members live relatively close to me so I may be able to solicit their help if my mite problem becomes more than I can manage. 

Thanks again for the advice.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Hobo,

Some great advice given here. It appears you have done your homework and want to be prepared for the long haul. It sounds like you already understand that there is a 99% probability that you will run into mite problems, and want to be prepared when you face it.

Over the years I've tried just about everything out there to treat for mites. Some were disastrous, others effective but with limited windows for application. Formic and Thymol products work very well, but ambient temperatures dictate when you can use them and it is not always the ideal time of year. 

If you are planning to stick with it, and don't mind making the investment, go with OAV. If you are purchasing 5 nucs and extra equipment, another $150 for a vaporizer is good insurance. 
JMHO


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## Swampsquash (Oct 25, 2014)

I'm a newbee and looked at the cost of mite treatments over the long haul. Then determined that a vaporizer would be a worthy investment. It seemed fairly easy to do and appears highly effective!

Just my $.02

Good Luck!


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Mite development is not a linear progression, it is more of a doubling (geometric) progression. Mite population may be low initially, but with every life cycle that is allowed to occur (in a worst-case scenario) the population can increase exponentially. If uninterrupted and uncontrolled, at some point the mite load can reach 'critical mass' and become overwhelmingly large. It is far better to attempt to control them earlier rather than later.

Regardless of what method(s) you choose to use to control them, you should assume that you _will_ need to control them and be prepared to do so beforehand.

I've been following the OAV and FGMO discussions with much interest, as I find the time/scheduling constraints imposed by Formic Acid and other treatments unsatisfactory. At this point, it _appears_ to me that the OAV method, applied early and regularly, may be better than waiting for some particular level of mite-load to occur before treating with some other method (MAQS, etc.).


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Maybe 5% of the beekeepers in the US use OAV, so the answer to you're question is no. You don't need it.


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## Hobo (Mar 4, 2014)

Thanks to all for the replies. I know this is a hot topic. I have decided to treat when the time comes. 



Mike Gillmore said:


> If you are planning to stick with it, and don't mind making the investment, go with OAV. If you are purchasing 5 nucs and extra equipment, another $150 for a vaporizer is good insurance.


That's what I was thinking. It's pretty much a given that my bees will get mites at some point and I want to be able to react quickly when I need to.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

As Swampsquash eluded to .... using traditional mite treatments can add up ... $. The investment in a good vaporizer will pay for itself very quickly. After that, the actual cost of Oxalic Acid per treatment is insignificant. 

I'm in that 5% group, and it's been serving me very well for about 7 years. I have no real personal interest in promoting it, but after trying many of the other mite treatments, it's what I've settled on. Cost effective, minimal negative impact on the bees (specifically the queens), and it works. 

It's a little time consuming so it might not be the answer for everyone, just my 2 cents


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

Mike, when, how, and how many times do you do it?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

What's worked best for me is ...

3 treatments - 7 days apart
I usually start the treatments mid to late August and then into September. 

That time period seems to be when the mite count skyrockets as brood rearing slows down during the late summer drought. By then I've already pulled my spring supers off. That series of treatments cleans up a lot of the mites before the bees start raising their winter brood.


1 Treatment - sometime just before or after Thanksgiving, when the colony is broodless.

I don't have to worry about any more treatments the following spring during the flow because the bees are outbreeding the mites and they are not presenting a problem yet.


I use a Varrox vaporizer with about 2g. per colony without supers. (3 mediums). Maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones, but it doesn't seem to impact my queens at all, and my overwintering losses are very low.


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## suzyq (Jun 30, 2014)

I started using OAV last fall when I realized my hive was loaded with mites. Killed just over 1,700 mites by the time the treatments were done. Yes, I counted them daily. Little effect on the bees and I was in an out of the hive in no time. I am getting 2, 3 pound packages of bees this spring and was considering vaporizing them once or twice along with my current hive before production starts rolling. Maybe a few days after they are settled in but before the queen start laying. The way I look at it the new packages won't have brood so it seems like a win, win situation. Would be interested in opinions for myself and Hobo. Certainly something to consider if feedback is good.


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## kingd (Oct 31, 2013)

Hobo said:


> This question is not directed to the treatment-free beekeepers and it is not intended to stir up a debate whether one should treat or not treat.
> 
> A lot of advice I have read says a beekeeper should have equipment and supplies on hand so you have them when you need them, e.g. an extra hive for a swam and extra supers for when you need to expand the hive.
> 
> What should a beginner do to be prepared for mites? I plan to begin with five nucs in April. Should I go ahead and buy an OAV set-up and a supply of oxalic acid so I will have it when I need it? Is there some other method better suited to a new beekeeper?


 I have to confess, I bought the OAV set up to have on hand "just in case". I tend to be someone the would rather have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

It might be just another one of those "mint in box " items laying around here,but it makes me feel better.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

suzyq said:


> I am getting 2, 3 pound packages of bees this spring and was considering vaporizing them once or twice along with my current hive before production starts rolling.


The packages will probably already have been treated for mites. But with that said, 1 treatment of OAV can't hurt, just to be sure. 

It would be the perfect time to treat. No sealed brood, so you will get almost all of the phoretic mites with just one shot. I would wait until the queen is out of her cage and laying, and you have some "uncapped" brood. The brood will keep the colony fixed, and there will be less of a chance that they would abscond after treating.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

suzyq said:


> I am getting 2, 3 pound packages of bees this spring and was considering vaporizing them once or twice along with my current hive before production starts rolling. Maybe a few days after they are settled in but before the queen start laying. The way I look at it the new packages won't have brood so it seems like a win, win situation. Would be interested in opinions for myself and Hobo. Certainly something to consider if feedback is good.


That's a very good idea. Wait until the queen is laying just a bit b4 vaporizing. The queen you're getting with your packages is probably foreign (to the workers with whom she is placed) and so you want to make sure she is accepted an laying (just a bit) b4 vaporizing.


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## suzyq (Jun 30, 2014)

Thanks Mike and SNL. You both had some very good points. Will definitely wait a bit till the queen starts laying. This forum has been awesome for getting good ideas. I had thought to be sure the queen was out of the cage but being sure she's accepted and laying is definitely the way to go. Thanks


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You have less than 5 days before the 1st round of broods are capped. So
treat them before the mites have a chance to go inside the capped broods.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

There is also the first 3 days of the egg stage, prior to larvae. But that's good advice, plan to treat 5-7 days after the first eggs have been laid before any worker cells are capped.


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## suzyq (Jun 30, 2014)

Thank you both for the info Beepro and Mike. Appreciate that you would go the extra mile and give me how long to wait. You saved me a couple steps. 

Bees are all their buzzed up to bee.


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## suzyq (Jun 30, 2014)

Thank you Beepro and Mike. You saved me a couple steps for checking the queen cycle and egg laying. Appreciate all your insight and knowledge.


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## gbsnplr (Jan 18, 2015)

This too will be my first spring with bees. I am reading that you vaporize with no supers on the hive. How do you get the bees out of the supers? It also seems that you only have your main hive bodies on through the winter. Sorry for the stupid questions.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

gbsnplr said:


> I am reading that you vaporize with no supers on the hive. How do you get the bees out of the supers?


Hi, no stupid questions here.
You don't get the bees out of the supers, you remove the supers or place a barrier (tin, cardboard, coroplast) between the brood chambers and the supers when you vaporize. Vaporizing is best in late August, early Sept and again during the broodless period around Thanksgiving. It is great to use also on packages right after you hive them to kill any mites before they have a chance to enter brood and reproduce.


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## gbsnplr (Jan 18, 2015)

Thanks SNL, from reading it seems I should vaporize my package bees a week or so after I get them? By then the queen should be laying?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

gbsnplr said:


> Thanks SNL, from reading it seems I should vaporize my package bees a week or so after I get them? By then the queen should be laying?


Should.......but look for eggs........


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## Tcqf (Feb 3, 2015)

I m with you on the vaporizer,cheap to treat,no harm to the bees and I use no other treatment.


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## suzyq (Jun 30, 2014)

gbsnplr from what I was reading you do not have to take supers off your hive to use OAV and it does not affect your honey either. I had 3 boxes on when I started the treatment last fall and the treatment after Thanksgiving. What I really appreciated about this treatment is you don't open the hive to do the treatments so there is very little disturbance to the bees and I did it early in the morning while the bees were still in the hive and I was in and out in no time. This was the BEST tip I learned my first bee year and I learned it on here


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

It's my understanding that the EPA is not going to approve OAV for use with supers on. I use OAV, but not with honey supers on. What's your opinion SNL?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

DPBsbees said:


> It's my understanding that the EPA is not going to approve OAV for use with supers on. I use OAV, but not with honey supers on. What's your opinion SNL?


Do not use with the supers on....... while there is evidence that OA levels in hives treated quickly return to pre-treated levels, I've found nothing that says it's "OK" to leave the supers on. In fact the EPA will say no..........


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## suzyq (Jun 30, 2014)

I'm confused about how this all works. Majority of the posts I've read have to do with how well OAV works with killing mites and the steps to using the vaporizer. I totally agree. I've heard very little mentioned on removing honey supers and the steps that follow. How do you get bees off supers? How soon after taking off the supers do you vaporize? Where are the supers being stored so as not to have bees stealing honey? I will only have 2 possibly 3 hives this spring and I am trying to figure out how this all works. I read in a couple sites you can leave supers on if you are not giving away or selling your honey. Are they implying it is safe to eat the honey but could be a liability if sold? One of the main reason I decided to use OAV was that it didn't disturb the bees but taking off supers that's no longer the case. Just trying to figure this all out.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Time your Fall treatment schedule to work around treating with the supers on. 

In my area, if supers are removed and extracted sometime in mid to late August there are a few weeks to do a series of treatments before the Fall flow kicks in. After the treatments we can either put supers back on for the flow, or let them fill up their boxes with winter stores if we are not going to feed them.

Then one more treatment in the winter when they are broodless and without supers, late November time period. They will now be ready for Spring with no additional treatments needed during the Spring flow when supers are back on.

In WI your timing will probably be a little earlier in the year, but it's the same principle. Some beekeepers like to leave their supers on until late Fall and then pull them for extraction. We have had to move our extracting schedule up a little earlier to allow enough time to do the 3 treatments and then get a few clean brood cycles in before winter. The bees are not bringing in nectar for storage in August anyway so there is no real need to leave the supers on. It's a good time to treat. They have to be closely monitored though, in case they become low on stores and need feeding to get them to the Fall flow.


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## suzyq (Jun 30, 2014)

Thanks Mike. Your response had made it a little easier to see how everything falls into place. Recently joined a local bee club and I will be sure to get the proper times for taking off honey supers in Wisconsin so I can OAV the hive.


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## JasonA (Aug 29, 2014)

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Great advice for new beeks like myself! What would your advice be for treating a nuc after it is installed in its permanent hive? It's already going to have capped brood so I'm not sure if it would be worth it? Would you just monitor or check mite counts with an alcohol wash? Thanks again!


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

If I were getting a nuc from someone in the spring I would do 3 treatments about a week apart as soon as they get settled in. Then I would know for sure that the mites are knocked down and the colony is off to a good start. Then begin my regular routine in the fall. 

Some may want to monitor first and only treat if the mite levels get too high. That's OK too, but I personally prefer to start off with a clean slate and go from there. That eliminates the guesswork for me.


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## gbsnplr (Jan 18, 2015)

I have my OAV setup ready to go, with that said I was going to put essential oils in my feed will that have any effect on the mites or anything else?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

gbsnplr said:


> I have my OAV setup ready to go, with that said I was going to put essential oils in my feed will that have any effect on the mites or anything else?


What essential oils are you going to use and for what reason? I find "essential" oils "non-essential."


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Mike Gillmore said:


> If I were getting a nuc from someone in the spring I would do 3 treatments about a week apart as soon as they get settled . Then I would know for sure that the mites are knocked down and the colony is off to a good start. Then begin my regular routine in the fall.


Good point! I'd make that week apart, 5 days, not 7.


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## gbsnplr (Jan 18, 2015)

I planed on using spearmint, lemon grass, tea tree oil or lecithin granules.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

gbsnplr said:


> I planed on using spearmint, lemon grass, tea tree oil or lecithin granules.


Why? What do you think that will accomplish? Is it just a "feel good for you" treatment?


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## gbsnplr (Jan 18, 2015)

thanks that is why I was asking the question snl .


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## gbsnplr (Jan 18, 2015)

Double post


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

snl said:


> I'd make that week apart, 5 days, not 7.


Yes, 5 days would be best. 

For us weekend warrior beekeepers, 7 days works too. Not quite as thorough, but it gets the job done.


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## JasonA (Aug 29, 2014)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Yes, 5 days would be best.
> 
> For us weekend warrior beekeepers, 7 days works too. Not quite as thorough, but it gets the job done.


Thanks for the suggestions. I guess I'm going to have to send some dead presidents Larry's way!


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## foxC (Feb 4, 2015)

snl said:


> Hi, no stupid questions here.
> You don't get the bees out of the supers, you remove the supers or place a barrier (tin, cardboard, coroplast) between the brood chambers and the supers when you vaporize. Vaporizing is best in late August, early Sept and again during the broodless period around Thanksgiving. It is great to use also on packages right after you hive them to kill any mites before they have a chance to enter brood and reproduce.


What if installing packages into new hives with undrawn foundation, how much time would you suggest before doing an initial treatment and would one treatment be good till fall or thanksgiving?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

foxC said:


> What if installing packages into new hives with undrawn foundation, how much time would you suggest before doing an initial treatment and would one treatment be good till fall or thanksgiving?


I'd wait until you're sure the queen is accepted before OAV. You see the first eggs, you're ready. BTW foundation by its very nature is not drawn. Whether you do another application before Thanksgiving is unknown. That depends on your hive. If it's a boomer, you could very well need treatments in late Aug/early Sept...... it would not hurt to do so, it just may be not needed.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

What's the best way to treat for mites using OAV and a top entrance?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Cyan said:


> What's the best way to treat for mites using OAV and a top entrance?


If a top entrance is all you have, what I would do is make a 2" rim (old boards just nailed together to form a rim the dimension of the hive). Cut a 1" hole (slot) in the bottom of the rim. Lift the rim and fill and insert the vaporizer so that the handle is sticking thru the hole (slot) you cut. Place the vaporizer on an old pie aluminum pie plate. Cover the rim with your top cover. Connect the vaporizer and vaporize.


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