# Producing nucs for the following year.



## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Hello all!

I don't quite understand the whole breeding queens en-mass routine. 

Let's say, for the sake of arguement, that you have mastered the art of queen cell production. You have some small nucs, lets say the size of a five frame cut in half and half frames to match.

Whats next?

Should the mini frames be drawn out? Should they have brood in them? How about honey?

How many bees should there be in there when you put the cell in? A soup can full? two? or more?

Do you feed them? should you feed them? what do you feed them?

As I research this I find plenty of information, but much of it is missing details whose answers may be obvious to the informed, but unknown to me. 

Thanks!
Albert


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

That's why I just use my standard medium frames for mating nucs. I can put a frame of honey and a frame of brood in from any hive to set one up.


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Thanks for the quick response Mike.

Am I to understand that you put a frame of honey against the inside wall, and a frame of capped brood next? Does a follower board come next?

Do you put the queen cell between the two?
And do you just use the nurse bees from the one frame or do you add extras?

Thanks,
Albert


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Queen cell needs to be located where it will stay warm, so yes, between the two frames pushed in over either sealed brood or open, whichever you have. You need to be able to seal each compartment from the other if you plan on having mutiple mating nucs in one box. You also need to locate your enterances on different sides of the box so the virgin queens can find their way home. I use window screening on the bottom, and staple it to the dividers, and then I put cardboard on over that if i'm worried about the weather being too cold. For the top I use material stapled to the top of the dividers so that I can work each compartment and keep the other ones closed so they don't mix. It works ok if your not working them on a windy day . A frame of honey and pollen should also be supplied (hopefully you can find one that has both on the same frame).


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Thanks Peggjam,

I'll keep the rest of my questions on this post.

I want to try to raise a dozen queens or so, and that's why I'm trying to figure out the process. I didn't think that a single frame of brood was sufficient for starting a nuc... though I have heard several folks say they do it. 

I haven't tried to put in queen cells but rather I have allowed the girls to raise their own queen from larvae, and the success ratio is about 50%. It usually takes two or three additional frames of egg and larvae to have a successful queen raised.

Like you said it takes up resources fast!

Thanks,
Albert


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

I would never allow or expect a single frame of bees and brood to raise a queen, while they might do it, chances are it will be a very poor queen.

If you are trying to expand your numbers, you can raise the queen cells in a strong hive, and then transfer them to single frame nucs for mating. I know some have tried starting nucs with one frame and a queen cell or boughten queen, and had it work......but most of the time it doesn't. Two frames of brood and bees work much better with a higher chance of success.


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

*nucs make up*

I don't quite understand the whole breeding queens en-mass routine. 

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you have mastered the art of queen cell production. You have some small nucs, lets say the size of a five frame cut in half and half frames to match.

Whats next?

About 4 days before my queen cells are to hatch

I go collect bees from a few hives that are strong and put them into my screened shaker box 15-20 lbs of bees depends how many you are making I got my shaker box designed so I can put a hive top feeder on top so after I collect the bees I need, then I will place the feeder on top and feed and place them in my little air condition building for about 2 days and let them gorge on the feed

I have found that about 4 quarts of bees will make close if not a tad more than 3 lbs of bees.

on my 4 frame 1/2 size Mini Nucs with inside feeder with new plasticell NOT Drawn I put about 3/4 of a quart of bees 

Should the mini frames be drawn out? Should they have brood in them? How about honey?

Its good if you have a frame of brood and honey.
But you don't really need them

Just put plenty of young bees in them and feed good Place in Ripe queen Cell (one that will hatch in 12-24 hours)

If you do it like this with no brood You will NEED to leave in a dark cool place until about 3 or 4 days (The Queen Needs to be 3 days old before you place them on the stand and open them up) at the end of the 3rd day she will have her pheromone and this will keep them home If you don't leave them plugged most likely they will all vacate the nuc

How many bees should there be in there when you put the cell in? A soup can full? two? or more?

3/4 Quart

Do you feed them? should you feed them? what do you feed them?

Yes.....................................

As I research this I find plenty of information, but much of it is missing details whose answers may be obvious to the informed, but unknown to me. 

Thanks!
Albert[/quote]


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Albert

Where did the above referanced material come from?


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Peggjam,

Thanks for the added input. What did you mean by the "above referenced material"?

Velbert,

Thank you too, for the sharing the details of the method that you follow.

Lets see if I have the basics down yet.

Day one: Take egg and larvae laden frame to a queenless hive (Queenless for two days. Right?) and allow the bees to create queen cells. Alternatively create cells via other methods and keep track of the days.

Day five-six : Some cells should be capped at this point, take a photo to ID cells. 

Day twelve: Collect approximately one quart of bees and secure in nuc with a feeder and a frame of honey.

Day fourteen: Carefully cut out cells. Place against frame of brood and add to nuc.

Nuc should be a double decker affair with an inside cover that allows for a feeder.

Stand on you left foot and turn the nuc counterclockwise 360 deg. to be sure of success.

I think that's it.

Now as to the feeding, Peggjam you recommend frames of honey with pollen. Velbert what do you suggest, sugar syrup, diluted honey, something else, a combination?

Thanks for the info!
Albert


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

Sorry Albert....it was Velbert ......


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## peggjam (Mar 4, 2005)

"Stand on you left foot and turn the nuc counterclockwise 360 deg. to be sure of success."

Dang, that's what I been doing wrong....an here I was standing on my head on top o the nuc and spinning clockwise ..........Dang it .


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## Velbert (Mar 19, 2006)

*feed*

Frames of honey is always the best if you have them I have been feeding HFCS 55 when I don't have frames of honey.

What I talked about in earlier post was my own experience. Except the 3 day wait for the Queen Pheromone Just remembered reading it some where after a few attempts of starting mini Nus for queen raising . Hive and the honey Bee, ABCXYZ or one of the magazines it has been several years ago when i read about it


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Am I to understand that you put a frame of honey against the inside wall, and a frame of capped brood next? Does a follower board come next?

I have two frame nucs. There is just the frame of honey and the frame of brood. If it gets too crowded I'll split it in two. By then there is usually brood on both frames.

>Do you put the queen cell between the two?

Yes.

>And do you just use the nurse bees from the one frame or do you add extras?

If there aren't an awful lot of bees on the frames I put in I'll shake in the bees from another frame of open brood. Typically, I add bees.


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Michael B.,

Thanks again for the insightful answers!

I appreciate everyone's input, I now have a much clearer understanding of the process. 

Thanks again to everyone for the educational assistance. Now it is just a matter of trying and learning by doing.

It occurs to me that there should be a forum of tutorials. A subject can be brought up, ideas kicked around, and a sumation of the process put together and posted there. Just an idea!

Regards,
Albert


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## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

velberts 'da man...

stand on your foot and rotate 360 degrees.... huh!

if you have a bit of uncapped feed in a nuc then feeding is likely not essential (but not such expensive insurance either). I do believe the 3 day thing is not so essential if you have a bit of green brood in the nuc, but is still a preferred practice if you are using mini nucs.


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

*Hi Albert*

Small nucs are always vulnerable. It is a good idea in a southern yard, due to the amount of larger colonies liable to be in the area, feral and managed, to install entrance closures small enough that one one bee may pass at a time. These smaller units, while wonderful in the deep south for the purpose, also are tricky to keep going. 

I understand from other postings that you are out to raise queens and i commend that. Steve Taber wrote my favorite book on queen rearing, "Breeding Super Bees." That would be a nice addition to your reference material. Also, there are some very large operations involved in queen rearing in Florida, you may want to set an appointment to discuss the benefits and possible problems with raising queens in your area of Florida. I always seek out the person with the proof (queens) for advice, esspecial in an area as unique as is Florida. In ten years i expect a book from your efforts, Steves book is coffee stained and dog-eared!

Chrissy Shaw


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

Chrissy,

Thanks for the addendum!

I did build six 4 frame nucs for experimentation. I am a little (lot) leary of trying two frame ones for the simple reason that my inexperience will lead to higher death tolls. As I finish up my first year, I've tripled my apiary by larger multi frame splits. I would like to use two frames of brood and two of honey/pollen plus a queen cell. This way I don't deplete a hive too badly.

My biggest issue is that I don't have a sufficient knowledge base to ask the right questions, observe the correct things, and make determinations from my observations. So I try to document the small things, the odd. Like the pee-pee dance they were doing a couple days ago; two steps forward, one back, two forward, two back... wierd.

Be that as it may, I do learn a great deal here, and even more while doing. This Wednesday and Thursday are my days off, and I'm going to set up a starter hive for some queen cells. I also created a spread sheet with the critical time frames and break points. 

I will consider the writing of a new perspective on bees, from a sub tropical point of view of course! Seriously, I haven't even begun to build a library yet and though I do have pretensions of being a writer, I'll need every bit of these ten years if y'all expect a book!

But again, I want to thank all of you for the great support, information and education. It really is heartening, in a world awash with apathy and hatred, to find a community that works together for the common weal. 

Regards,
Albert


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I went with two frames last year and they did not work at all

I moved to mini nucs with mini frames and they work nicely. Easy to find the queen and work those bees. 

Mini nucs are more equipment to have but are very well worth it!!!


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

*I always favored four frame*

My reasoning was this, when a queen was mated and on her way, the four frame could be set in, or added with newpaper to a newly queenless unit without anyone touching the queen. The darker bees are a bit harder to find a queen perhaps, but i got pretty good at that making nucs. When i worked for JZ my job on the line was finding the queens because i could do it fastest. 

For mailing queens the smaller nucs, fourways and the like, are better, easier to pick her from, less bees to deal with working bare handed--queen picking is always a barehanded deal. So were i wanting to pick and ship i would use the smaller units. Where i am can swing from 103 one week to overnight lows of 38F, such swings are tough on four frame nucs, let alone a smaller unit. 

The advantage of the four frame in most circumstances is that the extra brood can aid in holding over failures. The second is that there is no labor involved getting special equipment ready. The main problem with them is that the extra population can lead to a swarm if conditions are just right, heavy flow, much capped brood and a lack of attention for one reason or another.

Albert, i wish you success and many friends in the breeding cirlces of Florida.

Chrissy Shaw


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## Chef Isaac (Jul 26, 2004)

I prefer the 4 way mini nucs with mini frames. Even if the temp gets low, the heat from each pocket will help out. 

The mini nucs use up LESS resources than does a 4 frame nuc. 

I have spent a lot of time thinking of this and for us, this is the best method.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The mini nucs use up LESS resources than does a 4 frame nuc.

But a 2 frame regular size frame (in my case mediums) takes up barely more than the mininuc and all of the comb is drawn and I can put a brood comb in to anchor them, and it will eventually build up enough to split, but not so fast that it swarms at the drop of a hat.

Jay Smith makes the point that the smaller the nuc is the more work it takes maintain it.


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## Chrissy Shaw (Nov 21, 2006)

*The best method is what works for the individual*

Regarding best ideas:

I didn't invent modern beekeeping, that title belongs to the wonderful and brilliant Reverend Lorenozo Langstroth. Between he And Mr. C.P. Dadant ,much of what is beekeeping was hammered out in their day. Between these gentlemen and us here today, there are a million shoulders upon which the feet of every beekeeper stands who stands today. From that very rich spring of wisdom the rest of us draw upon. Almost everything i know of beekeeping has come from tried and true methods of others, others who took the time and care to share it with me only for the asking.

Today there are many remakings of older ideas, but there are extremely few new ideas in bee management. If one takes the time, one can find these old ideas and reshape them for current situations, but few are providing actual new ideas. I encourage anyone wanting to try something to do so. I advise that one not bet the farm on any of them until a decade of working out the bugs have passed. Roy Grout edited my first copy of "The Hive and the Honeybee," we know more of behavior since then, more about problems since then and beekeeping has changed, but some of the basics are used for reasons, that over time, in many conditions have worked for the bulk of us. These ideas are not in conflict, but rather one applying what works best for them. 

Michael uses his best size, i use mine and in both cases we have explained why we use them. Kirk Webster uses a small nuc that fits his work in Vermont. I write to Michael, have spoken with Kirk and i am pretty sure none of us would say we do it right and all else are wrong. I greatly admire and learn from each of these well versed men. We may state our details different, we may use different equipment, but we all get along just fine. I can not speak for these others, but i bet they, like me, are always looking for a better way for what we do.

May you find what works for you in all things.

Chrissy Shaw


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## Albert (Nov 12, 2006)

*Like Michael Bush says: It works if you let it...*

Chrissy,

Once again, well said.

And thank you for the kind words.

Regards,
Albert


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