# Queen Rearing for Hobbyists



## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Thanks for posting this. On day 5, or 5 days later when you're introducing capped cells do you get your brood frames with the capped cells from hives where you have placed brood frames above a queen excluder or do you pull them directly from a brood chamber and place them in the cell builder colony and then just tear down any emergency cells after 5 days?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

"pull them directly from a brood chamber and place them in the cell builder colony and then just tear down any emergency cells after 5 days"

I get them from wherever I can - I keep an eye out for what I need when I'm working other colonies, and when I find it it just takes a minute to swap it into the cell builder. Or if I just want to only maintain the cell builder I go straight to whatever colony I think is most likely to have what I need. But the first option kills 2 birds with 1 stone.


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## chris w (Dec 31, 2014)

Thanks for reposting the links David. I'm enjoying your article.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I loved David's article and have used this method and will again. It's just really good for small scale queen rearing (grafting 20 - 40 cells at a time - aiming for 10-20 mated queens per batch). I just love how it doesn't require a huge amount of resources. (bees, gear or space). It's awesome for small scale operations.

David, you were after really big cells back when you first wrote this. How have your cells been looking lately? Got any pics? 

Adam


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Joseph Clemens. I don't see him on here anymore. He used to 
reply to my posts a long time ago. Do you know where he is now? The many
things that he said that it cannot be done I managed to finish them and ready to
share my findings. Too bad he is not here anymore. Let me know if you know his where about.

Yes, the 5 frame nucs set up. I have been using this idea with good success not knowing that it was from you.
The My Little Queen Cells Experiment post was another adoption from your idea. So far so good!


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Adam - I've decided that while extra large cells look great in pictures they probably don't result in better queens. When you look through a clear cell cup of a ripe normal sized cell it still contains a reserve of royal jelly - so more than the developing queen could use. Putting a lot of effort into getting them bigger than that is apparently kind of a waste. Also queen performance - which is what really matters - doesn't seem to be better just because the queen came from an xl cell.

I don't take very many of those pictures lately because my current phone isn't very good at it, but I'll see what I can find.


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## cristianNiculae (Jul 2, 2013)

I've been thinking about a very simple schedule for queen rearing lately, one very easy to keep in mind. The thing is that you have failures and you need to cover them providing extra cells every 2 weeks.
So you graft, check for mating+add extra cells every 2 weeks. All you need to know are the days of the week in cause. The simultaneous operations are check for mating + move cells into failing nucs.
So this is it:


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Thanks David, good read. Hopefully I will be rearing some next year if buildup goes as expected. G


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

David,

How many cells do you graft each time to get the 10-20 cells? 20? more?

Thanks,


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

There was a thread on here a year or two ago (no idea what it was called), but in it, a number of seasoned queen rearing people talked about what a good ratio would be between grafts and mated queens. There's lots of talk about the ratio between grafts and cells, but what really counts is the eventual number of mated queens.

As I remember, the number people generally came to was 50%. If you want 20 mated queens, you've got to graft 40. That was the information I got, and it's what I've seen so far myself.

Adam


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Planning on 50% of your grafts becoming mated queens is probably a good starting number. When you first start you might not get 50% of your grafts to take, but you will improve pretty quickly. Once you learn all of the different parts of the system you might have a much higher success rate during the prime season - but don't stake your reputation on it.

My cell bar frames can hold 30 grafts, and if I wanted 20 cells I would pretty much fill it up with grafts. BUT.... there are some pretty big buts...
20 cells is pushing this setup pretty hard - you better have it all sorted out and in top form to expect that.
Making up 20 mating nucs takes an awful lot of resources for a small apiary.
You really need to run at least 2 cohorts of mating nucs per cell builder for this to be economical - and you need to produce at least 2 queens per mating nuc. Do you need 80 queens? Maybe so, but you are surely beyond getting advice from someone like me if you do.

In my opinion this system is great for producing up to 10 or 12 good cells at a time - or 5 or 6 for that matter. Which means you could need up to 24 or so mating nucs to go with it - but it would be worthwhile economically if you only had 4. With only 4 mating nucs and a little luck you could produce a dozen or so good queens during a season and learn a ton about beekeeping and queen rearing. With 20 mating nucs you *could* produce a thousand dollars worth of queens. But it would also be that much more work.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Thanks David, I am probably looking for 50-60 cells for the season. Originally I had planned to produce 2 or 3 larger batches using a full size starter, but I am starting to think that to start off with it would be nicer to have 4 or 5 smaller batches of cells from a logistics point of view.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

David - I just printed this thread, the Garden magazine article, and the 2011 Beesource thread. Could you please post the link to Joseph Clemens' article of circa mid-2010? I'd love to print that one, too. Big THANK YOU!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

KC, what happen to Joseph?
Is he still on this forum or already retired and not keep bees anymore?
I don't see his post in a long time so just wondering.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

kilocharlie said:


> David - I just printed this thread, the Garden magazine article, and the 2011 Beesource thread. Could you please post the link to Joseph Clemens' article of circa mid-2010? I'd love to print that one, too. Big THANK YOU!


Here you go - http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ger-queen-cells-do-they-produce-larger-queens


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Big THANK YOU, David! :applause:
I went 3 for 3, all on the first try with the library's printer yesterday, and hoping my luck holds out for that one.

I made the upstairs nuc box today - I see you used to use just a feeder rim. I figured, what the heck? I can stuff more bees in this way.


BP - Joseph has been a beesource contributor since, like, 2005, I think. I believe he has posted in the last year, he is probably like me - occasional long periods off the net when I'm out beekeeping, flyfishing , engineering a project, teaching permaculture and sustainable energy topics, flying somewhere, or patrolling for nectar flows.


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

Like many people 'of a certain age' (!) I've been indoctrinated into the 'queenless-starter & queen-right finisher' way of thinking, either by the use of separate hives, or a single hive with slide to create temporary queenless conditions. I've never even considered the possibility of using a continuously queenless system before.

So - excellent - great thread(s) and article. Perhaps they could be combined and made into a sticky ?


One small query regarding frame contents and their placement ... 

David - as I understand it, you place your frames: outermost two = brood; inner two = stores (honey and pollen); and central frame = grafts. 

However, in this thread:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ger-queen-cells-do-they-produce-larger-queens , Joseph writes (post #1): " I like to keep the two outer combs almost solid with honey and pollen; the other two or three frames I maintain as combs of emerging worker brood ... "

But in (post #30) he writes: " The two outermost frames are only partially drawn foundationless frames, the bees continue building them, filling them with nectar and pollen. When these outer combs are completed I replace them with fresh ones ... "

And in (post #44) he writes: " ... I use deep boxes with three frames of sealed/emerging brood and two medium frames with two 15-cell, cell bars, so I can get sixty nice cells from the least amount of nurse bees. "

So - there would seem to be some latitude there in terms of how supporting combs are placed ? Either that, or I've missed something important.

I must say that the idea of getting nurse bees to draw comb once the q/cells are sealed - as a kind of 'occupational therapy' (!) to keep them active and gainfully employed - is a very neat idea. As is using two such nucs side-by-side and alternating between them. No need then for an incubator ...

All-in-all a great system for queen-rearing - bearing in mind your caution that a virgin is never allowed to emerge from any cell, nor enter the nuc from outside.

I can't wait to try this system for myself. Many thanks.

LJ


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

As you have probably figured out - the precise arrangements of frames and resources in the cell builder is based on wharever you think will work best, and probably not really all that critical. The main thing is simple - lots and lots of well fed nurse bees. Good luck!


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## thehackleguy (Jul 29, 2014)

David,

I know others have said it but...Thanks for posting this! It is a great resource for people like me:thumbsup:


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