# Commercial TBH



## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

In advance, I am new to this, and actually don't have any bees as of yet. Still in research mode.

I have been reading through the forums and several books trying to learn all that I can. I first stumbled accross the TBH in a book title "Fruitless Fall", and was taken by it's simplicity and natural design. I found some plans and built one from excess plywood lying around my garage. It seems to me that they are the cheapest route for sure, but I don't know enough to validate they're production feasibilty, which is where you guys and gals come in!

I realize that by not having any plastic foundation in the frame that they can't be spun in an extractor. However, I suppose the comb could still be crushed and the honey extracted that way. I've heard of placing the comb in something like a sock and physically squeezing the honey out and filtering the honey in the same action, but that seems labor intenstive. Suppose I was to run it through a processor where the comb was shredded and the honey released. If I let it sit, will the comb and honey seperate out on there own?

I've also seen several posts that say that TBH is not feasible for high honey production, or for pollination services, both things that I may someday pursue. Why aren't they good for pollination, is it just the mobility? I can surely find a way to make that easier. Or is a lack of acceptance by growers that would rather see a more common Lang hive instead of a TBH. From what I have read, the standard to commercially rent a hive for pollination is that it must have a minimum number of frames of brood and such, representing a strong and healthy hive. Why should the grower care what the box looks like? 

Oh and then there is the issue of not being as easy to treat with chemical and such if needed, but again, I can figure out ways to make that work. 

I'm kind of stubborn and am convinced that I can make a TBH work for whatever I need, but I would love some insight from others that have worked with them. Has anyone on here attempted to use them for large scale honey production, or pollination services? I would love to hear your story.


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

I do not see how it could be done from a commercial stand point. With that said, I am sure there will be someone coming up next describing his commercial TBH operation . I would not think a TBH would stand up very well to the kind of transportation that goes on even in a small pollination operation. Would not all that comb just be slapping together... bouncing down the road?

As far as honey goes... well may be some kind of cut comb, better get a pretty good price for it... cause it will involve a great deal of manual labor. I could not imagine crushing and squeezing all my comb each year... after all comb is probably the number one resource that a beekeeper has... besides the bees.

Interesting discussion point though.


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## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

Thanks for the response. I didn't think of the comb bouncing around during transport. That is a good point. 

As for processing, that is why I asked the question of shredding the comb and then letting the comb and honey seperate on density. Or I suppose I could filter them. Yeah, no way I am going to keep cramming it in socks and crushing it, that would take forever. I am invisioning a machine like a paper shredded that the comb would run through and then fall out the bottom to separate. I suppose I could just uncap it and flip it upside down, but again, that would be labor intensive since I would have to do that twice for each piece of comb. I am thinking rapid processing, where I could run a whole batch of comb through, and then let it settle and separate over night. 

I know destroying the comb forces the bees to have to rebuild it, which is why extractors on frame are so nice, but that's out of the question. Such is why I asked the same question in another forum. If I pulverize the wax comb to such and extent that it is a shredded pile, would the bees take this as supplement and rebuild with it? What if I just put a block of beeswax in the hive? Would they use that rather than process honey to make new wax?


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

From a commercial stand point in the South, the biggest problem I see for an operation without pollination is that in the South... "The just ain't much Money in Honey". I really do not know about Texas... but here in the SE we just do not get anywhere close to those 150+ pound hive you hear about in the North.

As far as bees reclaiming wax... well I have not seen it.


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## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

Well I suppose the big limiting factors to honey production are nectar availability and colony strength. Weather and such play into these two factors. I have this dream vision of a landscape geared towards honey bees. Something like a clover field surrounded by fruit orchards. But that's a dream at best for right now. For now I'll just have to try and convince my neigbors that bees are good and get them to seed their lawns in clover.

But I am excited to see what I can do. Hopefully if I ever get started into actually raising some bees, I'll find I'm good at it and perhaps I can start reporting those 150 lb harvests from the SE TX TBH's.


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

I run a combination of horizontal top bar hives and Warre hives in my 25-some-odd hive apiary. While I admire your passion, I do not believe horizontal top bar hives are conducive to commercial/migratory beekeeping. Their size, length, fragility of comb in heat, and fixed cavity size make them far more labor intensive than other box hive options. If I was going to run a commercial operation I would personally use Warre hives. They are low maintenance, have a small footprint, and have less comb collapse issues when moved.

Crushing and straining honey can be done very efficiently. Check out some videos here of a large skep apiary crushing their honey toward the bottom: http://www.beethinking.com/information/videos/skep-videos

If you really want to run a "commercial" TBH operation, look into Wyatt Magnum. I believe he has something like 200 TBH that he moves for pollination in North Carolina. He also writes for American Bee Journal.
Best,
Matt


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## Tom Brueggen (Aug 10, 2011)

Thanks Cacklewack for the great response. I really appreciate the honest advice. I hate when I see forums that are full of bickering, or vague responses. 

I should clarify, I'm not in any sense trying to go commercial with only the TBH, I just think it would be neat to find a way to, since typically all I see are the reasons you can't. Not to spite anyone, just to prove it to myself, if that makes sense. I look forward to the experimentation. I grew up on 180 acres in NE Missouri, where we had a quarter acre garden. Now I live in the suburbs of Houston, TX, and my whole lot is only a quarter acre. I have been having a lot of fine trying to figure out how and where to garden. It's a fun little game, much like I anticipate with trying to be commercially successful with TBH's. I imagine I'll quickly find the best way to do things that work for me, whether it be a TBH, or a Warre or Lang, or maybe even something different. I'll be sure and let everyone know what I discover. Thanks again.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Matt, 

That third video of how they catch all the swarms as they emerge using bags is awesome. And I wonder what kind of smokers those are... They seem to be mouth controlled...

Thanks for the link,

Adam


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

I believe they are called the Imker Pfeife (beekeeper's pipe). I think they used tobacco in the pipe. It makes for a nice hands-free method of smoking! They talk about these smokers in "The Quest for the Perfect Hive." Many veils were made with a hole in them to accommodate such pipe smokers.

Best,
Matt


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Crush and strain will use of too much of our precious flow. They will rebuild the wax each year and by the time they finish rebuilding the comb the flow will be over. Go lang. 
mike


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Kingfisher Apiaries said:


> Crush and strain will use of too much of our precious flow.
> mike


7 lbs of honey = 1 lb of wax. (or so I have read)... That's a pretty good argument for Lang.


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

For a thread discussing the reality of honey to wax numbers go here. You may be surprised: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?243877-Anyone-done-the-math-honey-and-total-wax-harvest-from-foundationless&

Best,
Matt


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## hpm08161947 (May 16, 2009)

Cacklewack said:


> For a thread discussing the reality of honey to wax numbers go here. [/URL]
> 
> Best,
> Matt


HA... So it was Mark that put that figure in my head.... I will try not to forget it... 2-4 lbs of honey per lb of wax. Still a pretty heavy demand on honey.... each year.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Warre would seem to be much better if you are dead set on a top bar hive, especially if you plan on moving your bees. Next year im going to make a ktbh and a few warre hives. I plan on keeping the ktbh static as in Ill never move it and the warre hives just for fun and as a way to see if other methods/hive designs might work better for me. I actually want the ktbh in the yard so i wont be tempted to move it because when i migrate my bees i miss them


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Scott McPherson was running a small commercial operation with Top Bar Hives. I believe he has now converted them all to Warre' hives.

The biggest problem with commercial top bar hives is that you have to micro manage the space in a top bar hive where you can just throw boxes onto a vertical hive at the start of the flow and come back when you harvest.

As far as extracting, if you build frames you can do foundationless and extract. You might even get by with it in a top bar only setup if you got older tougher comb.


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## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

The bottom line is that the bees will have to remake the comb each year....in texas it just does not happen. Usually you have to make the drawn comb first and then the next year you make honey. If anything its stressful on the bees.
mike


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## Bsweet (Apr 9, 2010)

Kingfisher, I hear what your saying about new comb each year, but. 
1. You don't harvest the brood combs, Just some of the honey combs.
2. At 2-4(lets use 3) pounds of honey to make a pound of comb, if you sell you honey @$6. per lb. you gross $18. and if you sell your wax @ $1. per oz thats $16 per lb.. not that big a $ loss and if you can sell your wax as first year wax for more than a buck an oz. you may even make more on your wax than honey. It is said that capping wax is cleaner/purer than the old brood wax that is 5 years old and rotated out of a hive because of chemical build up so first year wax should be the same
3. TBH for a commercial outfit might work even for pollination (although not cross country)because even us lang people say that brood comb is stronger than NEW honey comb. When moveing a hive to an out yard for honey production or pollination we only move the brood chambers and super later, a TBH would be moved much the same way BUT it would already be supered with empty top bars for new honey comb.
4. Alot of big time honey producers sell their bulk honey for a couple of dollars a lb, so would they not make more money by selling clean first year wax? at $16. per pound? That meens it would cost them $6. to make $16.

Not saying it would work for everybody but in some areas with depressed honey prices it maybe an option. Jim


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Wow those skep videos were great. Those videos could have been made 1000 years ago if not for the truck and maybe the smoker. Very cool though, I wanted to start weaving straw, dunno about the cow poop thing though


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Michael Bush said:


> As far as extracting, if you build frames you can do foundationless and extract. You might even get by with it in a top bar only setup if you got older tougher comb.


How do you extract foundationless frames w/out throwing comb out of the frame during the extraction process? Do you wire them?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>How do you extract foundationless frames w/out throwing comb out of the frame during the extraction process? Do you wire them? 

If you read the old ABC XYZ of Bee Culture books it's clear that wire and extracting have nothing to do with one another. Wiring was invented to prevent sag in the foundation. People were extracing long before they wired.

I do not wire them. I just extract them. But you CAN, if it helps you sleep at night, wire them.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm#extract


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Wouldn't extracting in a radial arrangement reduce the stress on combs?


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## Zonker (Mar 10, 2010)

When you do the cost benefit analysis you need to include the cost of operation. I run Langs, TBH's and Warre's. I order stuff for the lang's every year (i.e. foundation, frames, wire, etc.) which cost more than the honey I'm pulling. The TBH's are free (plenty of scrap lumber in this old neighborhood) but require a lot of management and time is money. Warre's are free and "set and forget". If I want double the honey/wax I just double the number of hives (they're free). 

Also I believe that there is a large health benefit to removing old dirty comb. Sometimes I don't even want to eat the honey out of my lang with the old black wax. I don't feed (except for a new package) or spray or medicate or funigate and my hives are healthy and strong. I think it must have something to do with living in a clean hive.


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