# Herbs for bees



## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

Lets say thyme would help combat nosema, or eucalyptus for disentary. What are your thoughts.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I would ask a couple questions: 

First, what evidence shows that these things do what you say they will? From the surveys I've seen, I'd say any effects are within the realm of the margin of error, but I haven't done the actual math.

Second, what makes these items any different than any other treatment aside from the fact that they don't work as well?

Third, how is this what bees have done for thousands of years? Collecting nectar and pollen from these plants is not the same as distilling the essential oils, mixing them in sugar water and feeding them.

Fourth, how is dependence on essential oils much different than dependence on any other chemical? Shouldn't our goal be to create bees that don't need any inputs whatsoever?

I know people just want to help, but bees aren't people, they aren't farm animals, they aren't children, and they aren't pets. Anything you do to 'help' them combat disease hinders their natural resistance to that disease. That means when you're not there (because they've swarmed or whatever) they're going to be at a distinct disadvantage. At the very least, we should be harder on them so that the survivors have a better chance in the long run. The concepts of epigenetics show that the best thing for disease resistance is for constant disease pressure. That's ultimately what treatment-free beekeeping is about, letting the bees take care of the problem all by themselves.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

My take on it is this - if you use an herb it is a treatment. If you plant herbs near your hive with the hope that the bees will visit it and collect whatever from it it is not. I do not consider the Tulip Poplar or Linden that I have planted treatments - rather they are hopefully enhancements to the forage available to the bees that they can decide to take advantage of or not.


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## cerezha (Oct 11, 2011)

Bees are facing challenges, which are not "natural" to them - all pollution etc from the human activity plus we moved bees thousand miles for pollination (spreading diseases) etc. All these happened recently from evolution prospective, thus animals (including bees) had no time to "evolve" and adjust... What is proposed here is nonsense from the scientific point of view - let bees evolve/adjust withing years? Yes, within a 1000 years they will evolve and adjust, but it is just very misleading concept that bees could evolve (read change genome) withing a few years. Also, bees genetic adaptation is slow because the "reproductive cycle" (from one queen to another, natural, not artificially placed) is very slow - a few years. Any genomic adjustments could be made only through a few (!) full reproducing cycles. Re-queening screw up the cycle and must be considered as a treatment since it is introduction of "something" to cure the problem. Sergey


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

Well my input on this is I am going to start planting all essential herbs that I can collect and put my garden within a few hundred feet of the hives. No chemicals to unhance the growth. Old fashion weeding on my hands and knees with a hoe, and lots of cow manure. Or is that considered a chemical.


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

Over the next five years I am going to have my control hive and see what if any effects of these herbs will help or even hinder the hives. I am also in the process of SC regression.


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## buzz abbott (Mar 6, 2012)

The OP said nothing about essential oils nor about mixing and feeding them.
Hopefully, the OP will repost to explain what was meant by the term 'using herbs'. I would not consider planting a bunch of herbs near the bee yard treatment any more than planting any other plant the bees 'use' to keep healthy. Nor did the OP claim that any particular herb would do any particular thing other that to put forward what ifs.


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

He is stuck on another post which was moved to bee forum because he said it was off topic. We were talking about the bee tea and essential oils used for nosema and disintery. They were Thyme and eucalypse. But in many of my reading on the net I am finding more and more about herb gardens planted for bees for pollination and medicinal purposes. All natural, God made and not messed with by man. I have found many many herbs that can be be planted almost year around to keep bees busy even in dearths. So if this is treatments then you have it all backwards.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

You aren't the first to say so and you won't be the last. If you're putting a substance in a hive to help the bees overcome a disease or pest, it's a treatment. That's all there is to it.

Instead of trying to sneak something under the radar in a contentious online forum, do what I've done for nine years and go totally treatment and manipulation free, developing bees that survive without help and fetch a premium price. It's great fun being able to see the looks on people's faces when they ask what I do for (insert disease here) and I say "nothing".


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

As said! I am going treatment free. I am not going to put anything in the hive nor in the feed to manipulate the health of the bees. Instead, I am going to plant the substances that give the bees what they need when they need it. I am not going to be determining if they need this nor that, the bees will know when they need to treat themselves. U don't think they don't know what they need when they are not right. Let the bees be their own doctors and let man think he is superior because he says he does nothing. Congrates on your high price prize.


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## beecrazy101 (Jul 6, 2010)

I have found many many herbs that can bee planted in our gardens that bees will use and benefit from. The list is long and I will post them in a while. I have to get in my hives today and get ready for my new queens tomorrow. These herbs have been tested and proven in studies for many years. They are not what we call treatments, but the bees might be using them as so. I will post them later. On the other note, we have distroyed most of the bees natural plants they use to forage on because of our self-ish self destructive tendancy to take what we want without considering the consequences of our actions. Now we can at least give them back some of what we have taken away without the chemicals that others say we have to use to keep them alive. Let them thrive. The happier the worker the more production one can get.


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## Goldprospector (May 17, 2012)

Solomon Parker said:


> You aren't the first to say so and you won't be the last. If you're putting a substance in a hive to help the bees overcome a disease or pest, it's a treatment. That's all there is to it.


I agree...I just dont understand the argument here...If you put nothing in the hive...then it is treatment free. Plant anything anywhere. Nobody is putting it in the hive...SO ;Is there really an argument? Maybe I am confused.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

'If you're putting a substance in a hive to help the bees overcome a disease or pest, it's a treatment.'

You're talking about intent.

Planting a herb garden with the hopes that it enhances the health of your hive is fine.

I've got all kinds of herbs growing. Pollinators like them.

Don't get intimidated by the term 'treatment-free', there's more than one interpretation no matter what the title of forum may be.


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Beecrazy,

Understand that I have some of all of the herbs in my garden. Also know that while Thyme is a source of Thymol, italian Oregano is a much better source of the came compound. The reason that I mention this is that you would need around an acre of thyme for any significant benefit. Whereas a dozen or so well irrigated italian oregano plants will do the same job. 

Also consider:
greek oregano
mexican sage
russian sage
all lavenders -- spanish, french, english
all rosemaries
basils
geraniums

Regards -- Fuzzy


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

WLC said:


> You're talking about intent.


The forum definition does specify intent.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Intent again.

Well, we're going to learn to extract essential oils from our herbs with the intent of dipping hive bodies in it to preserve the wood.

Sort of like mixing bees wax and resin and then frying our wooden ware in it to preserve the wood. Nevermind the essential oils that are produced by the process.

It's all about intent.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

WLC said:


> Intent again.


Would you like the definition to be changed?


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

'Intent' is a rather large loophole.

If you going to be an ultra orthodox (read:inflexible) treatment free forum, then I suggest that you do so.

Unless, of course, you would have so few members left since very few beekeepers could live up to the forum rules.

My guess is that you're going to have to keep the intent loophole open. Otherwise, you would have to disqualify yourself as moderator.

Hmmm.


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## casinoken (May 6, 2012)

I find the "treatment free" argument that Soloman proposes a little overboard. The reason I say this is if someone adds an herb to sugar syrup because it is beneficial to bees, Soloman seems to call that a treatment, by the same token I could say that if Soloman feeds his bees plain sugar syrup during a dearth, it is a treatment, for the simple fact that he is adding something foreign to the hive. I just don't get the adding beneficial herbs to something you are going to give them anyway automatically makes it a treatment. This argument makes me laugh, it is an entertaining thread though.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

WLC said:


> If you going to be an ultra orthodox





casinoken said:


> I find the "treatment free" argument that Soloman proposes a little overboard.


As I am fond of saying, this definition was voted on by forum users. If forum users would like to see it changed, then I am certainly open to suggestions. 

Yes WLC, it is no loss that people not willing to go treatment-free have ceased using the forum. You don't see people going to the commercial forum all the time and arguing what is commercial and what isn't. You don't see people going to the Topbar forum all the time and arguing what is a topbar and what isn't. Yet for some reason, the discussion about what is treatment free and what isn't never ends. And somehow, the line 'natural treatments' and even 'treatment-free treatments' keeps coming up. If it's a treatment, it's a treatment. If you want to talk about treatments, go elsewhere. Funny enough, it's always the group who aren't, trying to tell the group who are that they are not. Why is this?

Casinoken, I'll thank you to spell my name correctly. It's not as though you've never seen it spelled correctly before. It's very disrespectful. And please read the unique forum rules as well, so you will know what is considered a treatment and what is not and why in this forum.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

So, did you purchase wax coated PF120s with the intent of making use of small cell?

Of course, any pesticide contaminants in the wax coating don't count because of 'intent'.

"If you want to talk about treatments, go elsewhere. Funny enough, it's always the group who aren't, trying to tell the group who are that they are not. Why is this?"

I doubt that you truly want to know why I keep challenging you on the definition.

But, IMHO, you don't live up to your own forum's lofty goals.

No essential oils allowed, but a certain 'guru' can make his own esters (AKA:essential oils) and cook an entire hive in it (and get away with it).

No pesticides allowed, but waxed PF120s don't count (forget the significant concentration pesticide contaminants in the wax coating).

It's that intent loophole again. Wood preservative and small cell.

So pardon me if I feed peppermint candy (food grade, of course) to my hives. My intent: use food grade peppermint oil because it's not a pesticide and the ladies like it.


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## casinoken (May 6, 2012)

No disrespect intended Solomon, I have a friend named Soloman and am used to typing it that way. As to your comment about the group who aren't always trying to tell those who are that they aren't, I consider 
Myself treatment free. I have never used any man made chemicals in my hives. If the bees can't access it through foraging, or if I can't grow something that is known to be beneficial to them and offer it to them when they need the occasional feeding, then it doesn't go in my hives.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

WLC, would you prefer language more referential to the end effect and less the intent?

Perhaps then some chemical treatments that don't work anymore could be considered treatment free. :lpf:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

WLC said:


> I doubt that you truly want to know why I keep challenging you on the definition.


Whatever your reason, we're done with the definition challenges. We're past that point in this forum. Embrace the overall intent of this forum and stop nit-picking over the fringe stuff. That goes for everyone.


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## TheBuzz (Feb 8, 2012)

If you wanna try to adapt bees faster how bout a UV light at the entrance? That would kill any bacteria.


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## Ramona (Apr 26, 2008)

TheBuzz said:


> If you wanna try to adapt bees faster how bout a UV light at the entrance? That would kill any bacteria.


I'm pretty sure we talked about this on an earlier thread. You don't want to interfere with the microbes on the incoming pollen that are already in the process of fermenting the pollen into beebread. Byproducts of the fermentation include unique nutrients that the bees require and that they cannot get anywhere else in their diet.

Essential oils are often antimicrobial as they are part of a plant's defense system.

Ramona


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

"Essential oils are often antimicrobial as they are part of a plant's defense system."

'Hippo Fatso' [sic]:

You can't plant an herb garden if you want to keep treatment-free bees!

That's not what we're supposed to be about.

Avoiding pesticides, etc., is fine.

All plants have compounds that act in a similar manner.

So, you're saying that treatment-free bees can't be exposed to plants.

Do you see how ridiculous it sounds?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

WLC said:


> So, you're saying that treatment-free bees can't be exposed to plants.


Nobody said that.



WLC said:


> Do you see how ridiculous it sounds?


Straw men arguments usually do.


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

People will often plant heb gardens specifically to enhance the health of their bees.

"Don't pay any attention to that man behind the curtain."


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

And? But? So? Therefore?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...essential oils are.generally distilled from the sap of the plant. Nectar and pollen are made.available by the plant to attract pollinators. Sap is the blood.of.the plant,.and generally isn't something the plant is advertising as free food for.pollinators. some.plants.benefit from aphids and their associated ants, but this is a.bit of a complex.relationship.
but the point is, the aromatic stuff.in the sap is.generally designed to prevent the plant from being eaten by large beasties and infected.by microbes. This isn't designed.to be food.for pollinators in order to sustain a symbiotic relationship. ...nevermind the distillation that concentrates.things.more.than natural systems.would.generally allow. A flower smells.good.to.attract pollinators
A mint leaf smells.good.to keep.deer from.eating it and.to prevent microbial takeover.
deknow


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Yeah, but something this 'special forum' doesn't want to do is appear to be anti-bee-friendly-gardening.

Don't mess with our oregano.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

I have some nucs and full sized hives litterally sitting in mint plants...I also have others that are in sprouted hay and milkweed, some are buried in burdock, some are on woodchips. Some of the mint we planted, some of it was here when we moved in.
I don't notice any difference. I havent seen more than one mite in a hive at a time (we don't do counts, but I have pretty good eysight for spotting them, and I do uncap a few drones from time to time). We do have a few colonies with what looks like some EFB...some of them are in the mint, some are not. This is because this is what is growing in our yard...we use the mint for iced tea at our conference, and we use the sprouted hay to hide how many hives we have in a city lot.

Having diverse forage available (which would include "aromatic weeds") is probably good for the bees. I think if you are going to put effort into something in order to deal with the mites, planting oregano is probably low on the list of things that will have any impact....Probably on par with trying to tell the queen to resist the mites with a Ouija board.

If you don't have diverse forage available in your area, a few oregano plants are not going to fix things.....and if you feel you must take some action against mites, your efforts are probably best spent eleswhere.

deknow


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## WLC (Feb 7, 2010)

Who said that you plant an herb garden to treat for mites, or anything specifically?

It's more of a general health tonic for the bees.

Of course, it's a little late in the season since my herbs have already finished flowering (mostly).

I might give them a 'hair cut' to see if I get a late summer bloom from them.

It's just an idea.


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