# Quilt Bee Box 3" or 4" (chopped straw v. pine/aspen shavings) R value?



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I just did a quick google on _ R value per inch of loose planer shavings _ you will get all the info you need. Planer shavings will yield higher R value than chips or chopped straw. The have more loft to them. The base material is only about 1R per inch; it is the still air space that yields the R value and allows moisture transfer.


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## sylvia (May 14, 2014)

Helpful indeed. Looks like the merit of quilt boxes and shavings is in the moisture absorption properties, and not an R value. 

Thank you.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

sylvia said:


> Helpful indeed. Looks like the merit of quilt boxes and shavings is in the moisture absorption properties, and not an R value.
> 
> Thank you.


I dont know how much space you have in the top bar hive but with Lang equipement a medium or even a shallow hive body will allow shavings for more than enough R value. For moisture control they are maybe too efficient at keeping the bees dry. That is certainly being debated. The shavings can be reused but I dump them in the barn because we use them for horse bedding


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

There's a useful list of typical Insulation values at: R-value (insulation) - Wikipedia with a handy look-up table 2/3rds down the page - Wood chips and other loose-fill wood products have an R Value of 1. (i.e 1 per each inch of thickness) - *but only when dry.* When such materials hold moisture, or allow moisture to pass through them, then their R-Value will drop considerably.

Air is a very good insulator, but again *only when dry.* A vacuum is ever better, but almost impossible to achieve without enormous cost. Most insulating materials work by trapping air in some way.

I use 3 inches of expanded polystyrene board (it's the trapped air within those boards which does the 'insulating'), with an R-Value of 5 per inch (although the R-Value for a 3 inch thickness is NOT 15 - don't blame me, I didn't dream-up those calculations) - with no complaints. In my hives, condensation then takes place on the walls of the hive such that excess moisture runs down them and exits the hive via vented floors. I find this process works well, but may not suit everybody. The underlying principles of 'condensing beehives' are described in Ed Clarke's book 'Constructive Beekeeping', 1918. Cornell has a copy: cu31924003100306 directory listing Well worth a read - imo, of course.
LJ


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

little_john said:


> There's a useful list of typical Insulation values at: R-value (insulation) - Wikipedia with a handy look-up table 2/3rds down the page - Wood chips and other loose-fill wood products have an R Value of 1. (i.e 1 per each inch of thickness) - *but only when dry.* When such materials hold moisture, or allow moisture to pass through them, then their R-Value will drop considerably.
> 
> Air is a very good insulator, but again *only when dry.* A vacuum is ever better, but almost impossible to achieve without enormous cost. Most insulating materials work by trapping air in some way.
> 
> ...


I think there might be an error in that chart. Here is another _the R-value of 25 mm of solid wood is 1.25. The R-value of 25 mm of wood shavings is *2.24*. There is such a large difference because wood shavings have air pockets and solid wood may not have any: air is a better insulator therefore, the shavings will make a better insulator _

Expanded foams are from 3 to 5 R value. Shavings have the effect of transporting moisture which "may" be as much an asset as their R value. Depends on which might be a priority.
Shavings win on cost!


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

_If there is little to no R value in putting a quilt box on the top of the bars, then I thought I could stack a few layers of 1" cork under the gabled roof as heat insulation over the top bars. Opinions on this idea are also welcome. _

Sylvia - In several of the Russian/Ukrainian videos that Greg has posted, I've noticed that old duvets, sleeping bags and what look like cushions have been placed directly on top of the Top Bars - that looks to me like a very sensible use of old and unwanted domestic material. A few old woollen sweaters inside a sack would do the same job. 
LJ


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

sylvia said:


> Helpful indeed. Looks like the merit of quilt boxes and shavings is in the moisture absorption properties, and not an R value.
> 
> Thank you.


that depends on how deep you make it.
I would go more that the 3-4 and shoot for 6-7
I find a 6 5/8 super works good or a deep that has "issues" on a table saw I take 3/4 off the top and or bottom to get the edge back to good.
I loose pack 6 or so inches of planer shavings and it has a good R value.

do not add them too late the bees need to seal the crackk between the boxes and may block off part of the Quilt box if they feel eccesive air flow.
Mine are on already, I add them empty when honey is removed then fill them later, allowing a good seal to be made.

If you have the skill set to make them consider a center opening to allow you to put in sugar bricks or pollen patties or sponge with water spritzed. I bit more complicated but not excessively.
If I have a light hive, I just put on an excluder then an empty medium some sugar blocks, a cloth then some shavings in a pillow case type setup, ease to remove check replace and not break the seal at the hive top.

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

sylvia said:


> I would be looking at custom making, and then filling, a quilt box with either chopped straw (the kind used for chicken and bunny bedding) or aspen chips, or pine chips (and I cannot find R values on any of these, either)


You know all this messy hoopla just makes me chuckle.. 

All you gotta do - find a regular polyester blanket (one of those cheap, thin ones)..
Fold it however many times and loosely put it into your quilt box (not pressing).
I got all bunch of this in Menards one year - $1 a piece - Black Friday.
I even cut them up for better fit.

Polyester blanket provides sufficiently good insulation while it does not hold moisture (dries away well - as long as there is ventilation above it). It is sufficiently close to those hierloom approaches that people used to do, but without the mess.

Seriously, people did the straw and wood shavings because they did not have polyester blankets (and the wool was too expensive for such use).

Of course, wool works just as well if you have it.

PS: with a typical TB setup, not much moisture will be escaping between the glued tight bars anyhow to affect much the insulation value of porous material, BUT if anything escapes, it will dry away; with non-permeable material (cork, XPS) you run risk of trapping some moisture under such materials - not desirable.


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## sylvia (May 14, 2014)

little_john said:


> Sylvia - In several of the Russian/Ukrainian videos that Greg has posted, I've noticed that old duvets, sleeping bags and what look like cushions have been placed directly on top of the Top Bars - that looks to me like a very sensible use of old and unwanted domestic material. A few old woolen sweaters inside a sack would do the same job.
> LJ


These are great ideas! Thanks! And, yes, understood with the "only-when-dry" part. 



crofter said:


> For moisture control they are maybe too efficient at keeping the bees dry.


You are so right, it's a tricky balance! Especially here at 4,500" and with some years that we are clobbered with snow and some years (like the past 3 or 4) that we hardly see any at all. Oh, to have a weather crystal ball .... 



little_john said:


> In my hives, condensation then takes place on the walls of the hive such that excess moisture runs down them


Yes, in mine too, and I think this kind of condensation, when controlled, is necessary and helpful, as it gives them condensation 'water' inside their winter hive for survival. The tricky part is to allow for enough condensation/water on the walls to sustain their hydration needs in winter inside the hive, but not too much to get it dripping on them from the top. It's as much an art as it is scientific reasoning, measuring, learning, reading, thinking, etc ...



Gray Goose said:


> I would go more that the 3-4 and shoot for 6-7


GG, thank you for this. It's a TBH, though, not a Langstroth, so the top bars are tight against each other, they form a closed ceiling above the bees. They cannot move above that closed ceiling. There is a gabled roof over this flat area, and that is the part where I am looking at providing better insulation for heat that can escape from there. Until now I was only putting a 1" hard foam board (about a R4 value) but I am concerned about it being a moisture barrier. Also, I am trying to get away from man-made materials, all things being equal, and trying to find more natural approaches if I can. I see how 6'' - 7" height would definitely provide better loft and air-warming space. 



GregV said:


> You know all this messy hoopla just makes me chuckle..


Yessir



GregV said:


> with non-permeable material (cork, XPS) you run risk of trapping some moisture under such materials - not desirable.


GregV, it is my understanding that cork sheets are breathable, although they are at the same time impermeable. They have good insulation value (1" = approx. 4R) but, unlike the rigid foam I used until now on top of the hive, these would let moisture escape, rather than trapping it in. I have not used cork before as insulation, so I am only speaking theory here.



GregV said:


> with a typical TB setup, not much moisture will be escaping between the glued tight bars anyhow


Point well taken. I am going to create a TBH quilt box kind of thing to allow for betting top insulation, so heat will not escape as much (and I will be experimenting with more side insulation as well). The more I insulate, the more I risk a moisture issue ... 

Thank you all so very much for all the good food for thought and knowledge that you are providing for me on this thread. 

All I know is that I was dissatisfied with how I had been managing my TBH the past 7 years, so this year has been a year of learning from others' experiences, to see how/if I can do it better going forward. I appreciate all the input and brainstorming, thank you.

Sylvia


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I dont think that more insulation automatically relates to more risk of moisture issues. The insulation provides a warmer surface next to the bees and prevents dripping condensation on the bees. That is the killer. 

The permeability of the insulation can be a key issue. Cork would not have near the permeability as planer shavings. My approach would be to use the more permeable material and be able to regulate the amount of moisture allowed to escape with poly film which you could roll back.

I am modifying my shavings quilts this winter to be able to* limit* the amount of moisture removed. Condensation is certainly no issue with the system GG describes! Top bars do bring some different issues into play, though, compared to Langs. My experience with them is only looking at pictures.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Sylvia, go and get this paper:


https://www.buildingscience.com/sites/default/files/migrate/pdf/PA_Moisture_Control_ASHRAE_Lstiburek.pdf



Study at the definitions of the "hydro-thermal" regions in North America.
See where you fit and what is recommend for insulation and moisture control.

Importantly - look at 1)the proper placement of the "moisture barrier" and 2)the "drying direction".
Those are two key concepts to understand.
Proceed with your own hive insulation setup.

For this said example strategies for insulation/moisture management defined for the "cold region" should work well.

In general, beeks should just review the building science findings and recommendations for their own region and try and follow them.
These very same concepts work for the hives too.

Excellent resource I never get tired of referring to:




__





Building Science Corporation


BSC, a consulting and architecture firm is an industry recognized leader in building technology for commercial, institutional, and residential applications.




www.buildingscience.com


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## sylvia (May 14, 2014)

crofter said:


> My approach would be to use the more permeable material


Yes, I am considering putting a nice thick lofty layer of the shavings/straw in a pillow immediately above the touching top bars, for their absorption abilities, and then above that the cork sheet(s), for more R value (as they are less breathable). 



GregV said:


> Sylvia, go and get this paper:
> https://www.buildingscience.com/sit.../pdf/PA_Moisture_Control_ASHRAE_Lstiburek.pdf


That's a thick read! I have zero background in building & engineering, but I read it twice and I am already starting to understand its logic and where it's going. I'll have to read it another couple of times so I can understand even better. Someone should go into the business of building insulated/breathable hives according to geographical regions and climates, selling them that way. 

Again, thank you to all for the input.

Sylvia


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## sylvia (May 14, 2014)

Alright. After a couple of prototypes, I have finalized this for now.

I built a bee quilt box (nominal 6" high, cedar wood) filled an old pillow case with chopped straw (which I fluffed up), to the height of about 4" (should be approx. R = 4, give or take), then covered it with duck cloth. On top of that right now I have a 1" blue hard foam board (R approx. 4), but I will be replacing it with 2 layers of 1" cork board (R = 4 [x2 = R8]), to use natural materials as much as possible.

Also, I lengthened the vertical sides of the roof (poplar, 1/4" thick, nominal 6" high) so that the quilt box is fully protected on all sides from rain and snow.

I will report back in spring (or earlier, if disaster strikes and I need to report early failure). Thanks again for all the suggestions, tips, and feedback above.

The bees did not even notice the change in the hive's architecture.

Sylvia [and I can now start obsessing on how to improve the winter lateral insulation panels  ]


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

that looks to be a fine quilt box, good job.

GG


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## sylvia (May 14, 2014)

Let me try these pics again. Sorry, still trying to figure how to attach those.


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## sylvia (May 14, 2014)

Thanks, GG. My first quilt box prototype was with a nominal 4", and you were right to suggest 6" or 7". I did need that much height just for loft + cork boards. 
I think I will use the 4" quilt box for summer, swap it out with the 6" in May or so, and 4" will give some insulation in hot weather (I also have a pet shade cloth on top of the TBH for summer months).


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

sylvia said:


> Thanks, GG. My first quilt box prototype was with a nominal 4", and you were right to suggest 6" or 7". I did need that much height just for loft + cork boards.
> I think I will use the 4" quilt box for summer, swap it out with the 6" in May or so, and 4" will give some insulation in hot weather (I also have a pet shade cloth on top of the TBH for summer months).


I like the flexibility of the deeper ones, so I also have a couple 4 inchers on the shelf.
looks like 2 pillow cases would fit fairly nice.
Curious to see how well they winter.

good luck

GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

sylvia,
You are doing a good job.

But now step back and look strategically. 
A seemingly "simple" top bar hive is giving so many work-around needs.
This new piece alone is equal in size to the original hive (while having a limited function).

What is the point of your top bar hive again?
Was it not the simplicity and low overhead?
That was the whole point.

For shame, but I knew up front I should have avoided this entire "simple" top bar hive idea - which I did and glad I did.
What you are doing now as an afterthought - those things are part of the deeper hive designs up front.


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## sylvia (May 14, 2014)

GregV said:


> What is the point of your top bar hive again?


The honey combs, harvested individually, are not heavy (7 - 9 lbs each), thus so very manageable and easy to work with. Also, the inside body of the TBH is about 3' long, all very manageable. The bees seems to take to its trapeziod shape very nicely. It's a foundationless system. It's horizonatal, which does not allow for the vertical temp swings of a Langstroth or a Warren. There is no queen excluder to limit her natural desire to move around. These are all the major aspects that made me prefer the TBH system when I started 8 years ago. I still vouch for these.

Over the past years, I have become unhappy with some aspects of my beekeeping skills (or lack thereof), but not disillusioned at all with the concept of a TBH. So, this year (and probably next year, too) is my time to pull together my thoughts and my own observations on what to keep and what to change. So far, the two major changes I made this year (the custom foundationless frames for the top bars, and the quilt box) are looking good.

I have one hive to take care of and enjoy, so -- unlike someone with more bees -- changing, trying, experimenting can be part of the fun and experience for me.



GregV said:


> Was it not the simplicity and low overhead?


To be honest, I find my modifications "simple" and so far they sure have immensely simplified my inspections (the foundationless frames), and I might have fewer sleepless winter nights worrying about the bees freezing, now that they have a quilt over them. The pre-conceptualization of these modifications entails lots of brainstorming and working through the feedback I receive on this forum. Also, I don't mind afterthoughts.

You can see that, paradoxically, by these implementations I have actually simplified my TBH keeping, for me and for the bees.



Gray Goose said:


> Curious to see how well they winter.


Me too. I promise I will report back.

Sylvia


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

sylvia said:


> It's a foundationless system. It's horizonatal, which does not allow for the vertical temp swings of a Langstroth or a Warren.



Then just make one of these and call it done.
It is horizontal; it is foundationless; it is not Lang/Warre; and it has all those insulation features you are now doing as a retrofit - already designed-in.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

GregV said:


> sylvia,
> You are doing a good job.
> 
> But now step back and look strategically.
> ...


after thoughts are like pre thoughts,, only later.
many ways to get somewhere, detours to learn are allowed.

GG


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## Newbeek2021 (May 13, 2021)

Curious,
Unless i overlooked in the pic it didnt appear you have anything tying it down, arent you concerned a good gust of wind will topple it off the top?


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Gray Goose said:


> after thoughts are like pre thoughts,, only later.
> many ways to get somewhere, detours to learn are allowed.
> 
> GG


As long as a person fully informed and yet enjoys independently inventing their own version of the wheel - it is cool. Could be a new fuel efficient design or something like that.

But I what often observe is that 150 years of hive designs, development, and refinements already done in the Old World - are gone largely unnoticed as if nothing happened.  
Take it and use it.

This lady right here leverages 100 year old horizontal Dadant design very successfully and does well for herself (in fairly cold climate too).
This year she is expanding to 100 colonies she said.
Not much else to invent there, just use what works. 


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYAtP2ADwUxc_YAq0dko5Rw/videos


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## sylvia (May 14, 2014)

Newbeek2021 said:


> arent you concerned a good gust of wind will topple it off the top?


That's a valid question, and to which I don't yet have an answer. There is a flat wooden board between the top of the bars and the bottom of the cedar quilt box, and it has a small raised lip (about 1/3") at its perimeter. I built the cedar quilt box to fit very snugly inside that outer small lip. 

When we get our fierce winds, they almost always come from N or NW. The shorter (back) end of the hive is -- because of this -- pointing due north, and there is a 6' wood fence about 10' behind it. The original gabled roof of the hive weighs approx. 12-15 lbs. Without the new roof's poplar 6" vertical extensions, it never moved an inch in fierce winds, but the new vertical surfaces will give more opportunities for the wind to push it around. I always tie down the hive in winter, but not before I insulate the sides, which is usually around the beginning of November. We get fierce winds in summer too, sometimes with gusts at 70 mph. I never have the TBH tied down in summer, so far no toppling, but that was before the modifications I just completed. These are all new scenarios that will present themselves to me, and I will need to approach them one by one as they happen (or not).

Sylvia


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## sylvia (May 14, 2014)

Newbeek2021 said:


> arent you concerned a good gust of wind will topple it off the top?


Just a quick update ... we had a storm come through this afternoon, wind gusts at 47 mph, the roof (and the whole hive) held fine, they did not move at all. I will tie down the hive for the winter, as I usually do, in a couple of weeks. But this afternoon's storm gave me some peace of mind.

Sylvia


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## LarryBud (Jul 19, 2020)

These worked for me last year with a 100% success overwintering 5 hive. Made from 1 x 5 pine, very similar to a shallow super and with double deeps underneath, a 1/2 sheet (2'-0" high) of 1" pink foam in efficient insulator (one on left is 2 deeps and the 1'x 5 box-front has 2 deeps, a medium and the 1" x 5" QB so fit no so good). Loose pine shaving and side vents. Just started making more for this winter.


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## Ambrose (May 9, 2019)

little_john said:


> although the R-Value for a 3 inch thickness is NOT 15 - don't blame me, I didn't dream-up those calculations


@little_john, do you mean that the 3 inch sheet of insulation that you are using lists an R-value less than 15, or that when using 3 1-inch R-5 pieces of insulation together, the cumulative R-value is less than 15? Curious because I also overwinter with 3 inches of foam - 2 inch plus 1 inch - on top of my hives. I had always assumed I was getting R-15, but maybe this is not the case?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Ambrose said:


> @little_john, do you mean that the 3 inch sheet of insulation that you are using lists an R-value less than 15, or that when using 3 1-inch R-5 pieces of insulation together, the cumulative R-value is less than 15? Curious because I also overwinter with 3 inches of foam - 2 inch plus 1 inch - on top of my hives. I had always assumed I was getting R-15, but maybe this is not the case?


per Google
Styrofoam insulation is the cheapest material. R-values can range from *3.6 to 4.2 per inch*.
so I would ball park 3 inches at 12 Ish R 

GG


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## Ambrose (May 9, 2019)

I use this stuff:










If you can trust what's printed on it, that's R-10 for the 2 inch, and then the 1 inch board is R-5. But my question is if stacking the 2 sheets results in some kind of loss in R-value, as opposed to just equaling the cumulative value of the 2 sheets?


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Ambrose said:


> I use this stuff:
> 
> View attachment 66991
> 
> ...


Sure they would have tested it.
And someone would sue them if it was only 2 R
google Says up to 8.4 so 10 is not much out of line, perhaps it traps more Air.
I'll try some
thanks

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Adding to this thread.
I was out cleaning up a "quilt box" and took some pics
If you are debating if and what size to make an upper entrance, I have adjustable from 2 inches to 2 bee width.





















so in goldenrod flow or Dandelion, if it is on, flow I can open a bit for better nectar evaporation, in the cool/cold times close it.
one could make it flush at the end of the gate, to have no opening, or off center to get down to 1 bee opening.
I staple 1/4 mesh onto the bottom of a box, then a bead of silicone then a 3/8 strip for bee space.
then staple #8 pound duck cloth on the top inside to hold the shavings.
they get thru the 1/4 inch to propolis every thing, where the #8 and window screen, they just propolis the screen, Similar effect.

GG


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## JustBees (Sep 7, 2021)

There is NO need for a quilt box or any chips UNDER insulation.

The condensation is not coming from below, the condensation is caused by the temperature difference from inside the hive to the underside of the lid.
If the lid is insulated properly there is not enough temperature difference to condense the natural humidity inside the hive.

Adding a quilt or chips to absorb moisture is like throwing a wet blanket over yourself, only good in a fire.....
It does not make any sense to put something in the hive that absorbs water. It forms a breeding ground for all kinds of fungus and other nasties.

Bees are natures consumate heating and A/C specialists, every single bee in the hive is equipped with a air circulation device!
If all the bees got together at once to direct airflow how long do you expect it would take them to completely change the air in a box through the entrance hole.
I think it would take mere seconds......


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## sylvia (May 14, 2014)

GG, this is truly ingenious! 

In a TBH, the bars form a unified ceiling that the bees do not go above, so I would not be able to implement your idea with my situation, but I can tell it is really helpful for other kinds of hive.

I have a quick add-on to this thread, myself, too. It's been really cold here but we have had a couple of days where the bees have gone out for some super fast cleansing flights. So, I know they are alive. So far, so good.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

JustBees said:


> There is NO need for a quilt box or any chips UNDER insulation.
> 
> The condensation is not coming from below, the condensation is caused by the temperature difference from inside the hive to the underside of the lid.
> If the lid is insulated properly there is not enough temperature difference to condense the natural humidity inside the hive.
> ...


basically the wood chips are the insulation. And also disagree to most of your post, IN MY Location.
And fanning at -10F does not happen. FYI only 1 degree here this am, they are more still here.
Have seen Ice completely block the entrance, like 4 inches of slush froze.
So emergency upper entrance can be a life saver.

USDA zone 4

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

sylvia said:


> GG, this is truly ingenious!
> 
> In a TBH, the bars form a unified ceiling that the bees do not go above, so I would not be able to implement your idea with my situation, but I can tell it is really helpful for other kinds of hive.
> 
> I have a quick add-on to this thread, myself, too. It's been really cold here but we have had a couple of days where the bees have gone out for some super fast cleansing flights. So, I know they are alive. So far, so good.


on the end one could drill a hole and use one of them dial entrance changers that go from open to QE to a bit of air to closed.









Amazon.com : APlayfulBee 10PCS Bee Hive Nuc Box Entrance Gates, Round Rotatable Bee Entrance Doors with Galvanized Steel Beekeeping Tool : Patio, Lawn & Garden


Amazon.com : APlayfulBee 10PCS Bee Hive Nuc Box Entrance Gates, Round Rotatable Bee Entrance Doors with Galvanized Steel Beekeeping Tool : Patio, Lawn & Garden



www.amazon.com





or if the metal and cost are an issue
a cork size hole, then drill a hole 1 bee size in the cork, for open, closed and 1 bee size hole, would need 2 corks but who knows maybe you have a few 

GG


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