# Powdered sugar



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

For dusting, yes, this is what you want. For syrup or grease patties or any other feed you don't want the starch that is in it.


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

Thanks, MB.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

If you are uneasy about store-bought powdered sugar, you can put regular granulated sugar in a blender. It will make powder dust so fine your wife wont know you use HER blender.









------------------
Dave W . . .

Hobbist - 1 Hive
First Package - Apr 03
Deeps & Shallows, SBB
Apistan - Aug 18, 03
Grease Patties - All year
03/04 Winter Loss - 0%


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm not so sure that the starch is a bad thing. The experiments on using powdered sugar on mites here at the University of Nebraska were all done with regular powdered sugar.


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## Louise (Aug 18, 2003)

I thought that cornstarch was a bad thing only if brood was present - because it can dehydrate them. When an old beekeeper showed it to me, he had an elaborate system of separating the bees from the brood in order to dust them.

Since I discovered that my coffee grinder makes powdered sugar from crystals in about 10 seconds, I've started using that instead.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

We are talking about treating a package of bees. No brood. Yes, the University here, separates them from the combs (basically by running them out of the hive with bee-go) to dust them and have done studies on any ill effects on the brood by the bees having the powdered sugar on them. The powdered sugar in the brood can kill it, but what is left on the bees is not enough to have a significant effect.


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## Louise (Aug 18, 2003)

And is it the powdered sugar or the cornstarch?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Regular powdered sugar that you buy in the store for frosting cakes HAS some cornstarch in it to keep it from caking up. This does not make good feed. ANY powder, including pure sugar powdered in the blender etc. will kill brood because it dries it up.

What you want to dust the bees is the regular powdered sugar and you want to dust them while they are in the box the package came in.

There is no research on the effects of using corn starch for this.


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## Louise (Aug 18, 2003)

I was hoping to implement dusting as one of my mite treatments. I was excited to think that I had found a way around the drying brood problem by grinding my own sugar. But you are saying that the sugar is also drying? I guess I will pull boxes off and only dust the ones with no brood.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2004)

> The powdered sugar in the brood can kill it, but 
> what is left on the bees is not enough to have a 
> significant effect.

I used powdered sugar on about 40 hives for 2 seasons
back when it was first suggested by Dr. Fakhimzadeh's 
papers. I was warned by several people about sugar 
and open brood, but I could not find the "authority" 
that was being quoted in such an authoritative way,
and everyone who warned me could not recall where or
when they had heard this.

I also could not see any brood being ripped out after
I used it. I was told I would see ripped-out brood.
This made me curious.

What I DID find in my digging for verification was that 
powdered sugar had been used as an inert carrier for 
Oxytetracyline ("OTC"), which had been used in the control 
of Foulbrood. Anyone dusting powdered sugar laced with 
Oxytetracyline WOULD certainly kill brood, which may be 
where this concern came from.

But it was the OTC that was killing the brood, not
the sugar, and certainly not the ~5% corn starch.









I liked powdered sugar's effect, and it was nice to
see an "alternative treatment" that really worked 
after seeing so many others fail to control the varroa,
but it was simply too labor intensive. It really did 
not "pay" when the labor cost (even using teenage labor) 
was compared with the additional honey gained by not 
taking the infested hive out of production to treat it.

That's the problem with a lot of methods being promoted
that seem promising at first blush. They clearly can be
made to work on a small-scale basis, but just don't 
"scale up" for anything over a few dozen hives.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2004)

Forgot one thing. I cannot be certain
that we ever got much sugar in open brood,
as we did these dustings in the early
evening, and brood tends to get better-covered when the house bees do not have
(as many) foragers to unload.

We waited for evening to get the temperature
drop, and the associated drop in humidity
so that bees would not become "caked" with
the "poofed" sugar. Yes, I'm just that
picky to wait for the humidity. Pathological!


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## briancady413 (Dec 8, 2003)

Why would humidity drop inside the hive during evening?

Brian Cady


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## Louise (Aug 18, 2003)

I was planning to dust in the morning so the girls would have a chance to fly and thus not get it caked. Not so much humidity here - when it is warm that is, but otherwise it is seriously damp.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I saw the presentation of the research done here at the University of Nebraska on dusting with powdered sugar for Varroa mites. They concluded that getting a lot of powdered sugar in the brood will kill it. It's not the corn starch, just that it dries them out. They also did a lot of research on the effects on the brood of the dusted bees (which were dusted outside) taking the powder back in and if there was any loss of larvae from that. There was some loss of very young larvae, but no loss of older larvae. They concluded that the young larvae are less investment for the bees and the amount of them that died from the powdered sugar (from the bees dusted outside the hive) was minimal (Sorry, I don't have the numbers here on exactly how much it was).

I also know of using flour (another inert dust) to purposfully kill larvae around one cell and then cutting the wall down to get them to build a queen cell that can be seperated out from the cells around it.

Between the results of these two methods, I think it's a safe bet to say that any inert dust that absorbs the moisture in the cell will kill larvae if they get exposed to enough of it.

The idea is to minimize that exposure while maximizing the exposure of the bees to the dust.

Probably when the brood is well covered with bees if the comb is not horizontal I would expect that not much of the sugar would land in the brood. Also, it takes a lot more of the powder to kill a well developed larvae than a newly hatched one. It's not likely you will notice them hauling out the one day old larvae.

All in all, the researchers seemed to think that it was a useful treatment for a hobbiest with a couple of hives, but the commercial application is mostly for the pacakage bee industry. They could dust the bees before shipping and get most of the Apistan resistant mites off, which now survive and it's cheaper than Apistan, just as effective and doesn't add to the resistance problem. The bees are already out of the hive so it's no extra labor for that.


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## Louise (Aug 18, 2003)

Thanks Michael, that helps a lot.


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2004)

The claims about "inherent hazards" to brood
posed by powdered sugar simply did not
make sense to me, so I asked Marion Ellis of
U Nebraska (go Huskers!) who demoed the "sugar shake" technique at
EAS 2000 in Maryland.

He said:

=========================================
Hi James,

We demonstrated that a large amount of powdered sugar (as in burying the 
brood in powdered sugar) resulted in some removal of eggs and newly hatched 
larvae. It did not result in the removal of older larvae. It is very 
unlikely that the protocol we developed for dusting adult bees would result 
in such a high level of powdered sugar entering brood cells. We have never 
observed brood loss with the adult bee dusting protocol that will be 
reported in next month's ABJ (Proceedings of Am Bee Research Conference).


Marion Ellis, Associate Professor
University of Nebraska
Department of Entomology
Phone: 402-472-8696
Email: [email protected]

=========================================

So, go easy on the sugar, and you will NOT
kill brood. I had no problems with nothing
more than a baby-powder container (with
the handy twist-to-open top), held a few
inches from the bees, and "pumped" by
squeezing in one hand. I tried lots of
other application techniques, but the 
baby-powder container was the weapon of 
choice.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>We demonstrated that a large amount of powdered sugar (as in burying the 
brood in powdered sugar) resulted in some removal of eggs and newly hatched 
larvae. It did not result in the removal of older larvae. It is very 
unlikely that the protocol we developed for dusting adult bees would result 
in such a high level of powdered sugar entering brood cells. We have never 
observed brood loss with the adult bee dusting protocol that will be 
reported in next month's ABJ (Proceedings of Am Bee Research Conference).

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but FYI that "protocol" used in that research is to remove all of the bees from the hive with fume pads to drive them into a screened box that is fitted on the front entrance and dust them outside the hive.

I am not against using powdered sugar, I am just reporting what I know of the only scientific research I know of on the subject and their conclusions. And their protocol is to remove the bees from the hive.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited March 17, 2004).]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you'd like to look at Topbarguy's version of a duster: http://fire.prohosting.com/topbargu/blas.htm


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2004)

> I am not against using powdered sugar, I 
> am just reporting what I know of the only 
> scientific research I know of on the 
> subject and their conclusions. 

Easy-to-find articles that my be instructive 
were in American Bee Journal (June 2000) and 
Apidologie 2001(2). 

Dr. Kamran F. Fakhimzadeh is credited as the 
developer of techniques using powdered sugar 
as a tool to clog up the tarsal pads of varroa. 
Here's his best paper on the scope of the work: http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/maa/selai/vk/fakhimzadeh/detectio.pdf 
it also lists his prior published papers on the subject.

You can ask him about this issue, ([email protected]) 
since it seems clear that you consistently question either my 
visual acuity or mental stablity. Perhaps both.









> And their protocol is to remove the bees 
> from the hive.

That's nice. Here's our protocol, as webbified by the 
WSBA from something a banged out on Bee-L long ago.
http://www.westsoundbees.org/beekeeping_articles_sugar.htm 

Worked for us, and I am one of the most skeptical carriers
of a hive tool you could find.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Jim, I was aware that some people were dusting the combs. I was not aware that there was actual research to support it other than that done at the University of Nebraska, which, as I stated, and as your quote from Marion Ellis states, showed that powdered sugar dust did kill some young larvae.

I said:
"There was some loss of very young larvae, but no loss of older larvae. They concluded that the young larvae are less investment for the bees and the amount of them that died from the powdered sugar was minimal"

Marion Ellis said:
"resulted in some removal of eggs and newly hatched larvae. It did not result in the removal of older larvae."

How are these two statements different?

I said to you: "Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but FYI that "protocol" used in that research is to remove all of the bees from the hive with fume pads to drive them into a screened box that is fitted on the front entrance and dust them outside the hive."

You said to me: "since it seems clear that you consistently question either my 
visual acuity or mental stablity. Perhaps both."

I simply think if you intend to quote Marion Ellis on the subject, that everyone deserves to know what the "protocol" refers too. I did not say, nor can I see how you can imply that I said or that I implied anything about your mental or visual acuity or stability (here or anywhere else) nor am I saying that you are not using powdered sugar directly on the combs with good success. I don't understand what it is you think I am disagreeing with you about.


[This message has been edited by Michael Bush (edited March 17, 2004).]


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

You can count on my $25.00 contribution towards rental of a boxing ring and gloves so MB and JFischer can settle this thing once and for all.


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## hoosierhiver (Feb 27, 2003)

i grind my sugar in a coffee grinder then put in an old flour sifter,i open the hive,remove the inner cover and then powder all the bees as they come to the top of the frames,some sugar wafts down between the frames,but i don't think alot of sugar goes into the cells and have never noticed any brood die off.i have seen significant mite drops though.i think the bees grooming increases after dusting.


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## Louise (Aug 18, 2003)

How frequently do you guys dust?


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I have several packages coming.Any ideas on how I could dust them without driving them away?

Dickm


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would just dust through the sides of the package. You can shake them up a bit a few times to get them thoroughly covered. Then wait a while for them to groom the mites off, or hive them in a hive with a SBB.

The sugar won't kill the mites, of course. It just dislodges them so there needs to be somewhere for the mites to fall out of the package. If you turn the package on it's side they could fall through the screen, but the finer screen might stop some of them. If I had a SBB I'd just dust them well and hive them. with an excluder on the bottom to keep them from absconding.


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

Louise asked: "How frequently do you guys dust?"

I am only dusting with powdered sugar/terramycin dust once when I hive the package. This is on a recommendation from Dr. Keith Delaplane. After that I will not be using terramycin again, and therefore won't have a need to dust.

For long term mite control, because this will be my first year, I am going to go the chemical route and use Apistan w/ screen bottom boards. I will probably switch to some other control after the first year or so, such as thymol, formic acid or oxalic acid. I believe the Formic acid gel-packs will be ready for sale again in 2005. I would prefer to stay away from oxalic acid for two reasons. First, its not registered in MD, whereas Formic acid in the gel-pack and thymol both have section 18 approval. Second, vaporizing oxalic acid scares the hell out of me. Accidently breathing that stuff in would be baaaad news. 


Kai


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Anytime a hive/package stress level is increased, the bees have also an increased level of non-acceptance of a queen. I wonder if spraying/dusting or any other way treating a new package, that you may also be increasing the chances of a dead queen, increase swarming/absconding, or even the raising of queen cells at an earlier than normal period. Just a random thought.


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## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

<<You can count on my $25.00 contribution towards rental of a boxing ring and gloves so MB and JFischer can settle this thing once and for all.>>


Why? We can watch for free right here


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Second, vaporizing oxalic acid scares the hell out of me. Accidently breathing that stuff in would be baaaad news. 

I just stand downwind, but sometimes the wind shifts. It will surely make you cough.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2004)

> How frequently do you guys dust?

When varroa drop counts indicate an upswing in the varroa
population that is accelerating. In other words, when
needed, and only when needed. It matters not to me if my
"treatment" is powdered sugar or napalm, the same rules of
prudent IPM still appply in either case.









> You can count on my $25.00 contribution towards rental of a 
> boxing ring and gloves so MB and JFischer can settle this 
> thing once and for all.

I dunno where this came from, but MB has not given me any
clue that he might be "angry" about anything, and I certainly
am not angry in the least. 

Mike was only repeating what he had heard, and was not making
a statement based upon actual first-hand experience, so Mike
and I don't have anything to "settle", now do we?

As Dr. Fakhimzadeh (who came up with the idea of clogging the
tarsal pads of varroa) and I have each "sugar dusted" both more 
colonies than anyone else on the planet and for a longer period 
than anyone else on the planet, I remain unconcerned about possible 
"collateral damage", and will require proof to contradict the
evidence of my own first-hand experience.

I may still have a backup somewhere of the several gigs of images from 
my initial tests of sugar dusting on an observation hive facing a camera 
that took snapshots every 5 seconds for weeks. I would have seen any eggs 
or brood being removed after "treatments". The camera never blinks.

If anyone has experienced any "significant collateral damage", all I can 
say is that it has been negligible in both Fakhimzadeh's and my combined 
experience. We have discussed this exact issue in detail, as such things 
as "significant collateral damage" must be noted in published papers, lest 
they be brought up in pre-publication peer review or by subsequent research 
to embarrass the author of the paper.

Of course, with experience, one learns to "poof" the sugar with the goal 
of producing the 5-20 micron sized particles that are what you want. 
(Think of a "haze" of sugar rather than a "cloud".) This may be a knack 
that is hard to master, let alone teach. First, you have to know just 
how fine a mist is produced by such small particles. Then you have to
be willing to practice to "get it right". All I can say is "practice 
outside". Makes a mess in the house.









Marion Ellis's job is in the area of "agricultural extension", and he is
well within his charter to view ANY risk to even a small subset of the 
total brood population as "bad". He may feel that the risk is serious 
enough to warrant the extra work of clearing the brood chamber of bees 
before dusting.

I don't.


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## hoosierhiver (Feb 27, 2003)

i don't dust on a regular schedule.if i see a hive has a lot of mites,i dust to try to knock them back in numbers,repeating several times over a few weeks.i also agree that unless people are dusting directly into brood that there isn't noticable brood loss,that's my experience anyway.i'm still unconvinced the pure powdered sugar without cornstarch will cause much problem. i wonder if nurse bees would clean out small amounts of the sugar.


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## Louise (Aug 18, 2003)

I just read Michael's response to a new beekeeper explaining varroa and he posted this link on powdered sugar dusting:

http://fire.prohosting.com/topbargu/blas.htm 

I thought it was important to post here, since this is a topic on powdered sugar and because I realized that I was dusting completely wrong.


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## wfarler (Jul 9, 2003)

Thanks for the info guys. I am going to dust all of the packages I have coming next month. Seems sensible as my supplier is still using apistan strips. I didn't have any mites from them last year but who knows they might have started to get some resistance. Seems like an inexpensive and easy practice to incorporate. No brood involved.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Seems sensible as my supplier is still using apistan strips. I didn't have any mites from them last year but who knows they might have started to get some resistance. 

Shake the debris out of the package through the screen first. Then look at the sugar when you are done, if you want put it in something and add hot water until it's clear.

All the mites you see there, are Apistan resistant and would have had at least some offspring if not all offspring, that were Apistan resistant.

Then you'll know if it was worth the work.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2004)

> All the mites you see there, are Apistan resistant and 
> would have had at least some offspring if not all offspring, 
> that were Apistan resistant.

Hold on there... I'm not sure that the above is correct.

a) Package and queen producers are often required
by various state-level regulations to ship with
"tabs" of Apistan or CheckMite installed. This
may or may not have any actual effect, given that 
bees in a package may or may not brush against
the tab. 

b) Apistan does not have a 100% kill rate. Some mites
are "lucky" and do not encounter a bee that has
brushed against the strips (or tab), and can
survive the treatment period.

c) Mere survival does not imply "resistance".
I have survived several life-threatening 
situations, but I assure you that I am not
in anyway "resistant" to bullets, 55-foot
tractor-trailer trucks, falls from heights,
etc. I'm just either lucky or blessed.









The whole problem with "resistance" has yet to have
been traced to any apiary where prudent and proper
use of Apistan (once a year) was employed. There
is speculation that mites resistant to CheckMite
are often also inherently resistant to Apistan,
but the analysis is made problematic by the whole
"drift and robbing" situation, where a person
who has never used CheckMite might find his hives 
infested with CheckMite-resistant mites.

We now have an impressive arsenal of anti-varroa
weapons (Apistan, CheckMite, Sucrocide, Api-Life,
powdered sugar, Oxalic/Formic/Acetic Acids) and a 
few others that may become generally acknowledged 
as viable weapons systems in the future (FGMO, 
small-cell, and the others).

There is simply no reason why everyone can't
at least pick two different treatments, and
alternate between them. Resistant mites are not
an issue when we have so many very different
ways to kill the beasties.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

At Beetopia here, many bee scientists all seemed to think that the mites that survive, even if they get knocked down and get back up, are the ones that become resitant. One of the reasons given for the powdered sugar system being suggested for package producers was just that reason. That the mites that survive the trip are the apistan resitant ones.

I happen to agree with the concept, but I did not originate it.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2004)

Nonsense!


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## wishthecuttlefish (Jun 24, 2003)

Just so everyone is clear, when I started this whole thread I was talking about giving a powdered sugar dusting to new packages as a delivery system for a one-time only dosing of Terramycin, not as a treatment for Varroa mites in new packages.

The thread has evolved, as threads often do, into something entirely different.


Kai


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

And that being said, this thread is closed.

Opps, I better go check my underware.


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