# ProVap110 video



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=5v2XdgUwnCE

Both burns were 4g, element temp set at 230, operating range between 240-195

Complete burn, no residue, approx 30 sec burn off 

I was wearing a full face mask with charcoal filters 

:thumbsup:


----------



## liljake83 (Jul 2, 2013)

That was some pretty good smoke there Ian nice and consistant unlike the lega which smokes good for a little then stops I may need to look into this unit


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Steady complete burn, no residue, 20-30 second on a 4g app


----------



## liljake83 (Jul 2, 2013)

Did you happen to notice what the temp of the vapor was coming out of the gun?


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

it burnt out between 230 and 195


----------



## aran (May 20, 2015)

that looks awesome...the OAV vaporizer i use now is a pain in the butt , however this provap gadget is almost $500!!


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

What is your price point aran?
I spend more than $500 on Bee suits every year


----------



## ABruce (Dec 27, 2013)

Hi Ian, 
That looks like an effective unit. What does it draw, could you run it from an inverter or would you need a generator where you do not have household current? Could you offer how you will fit it into your management? I treat twice a year, currently Apivar in early spring and formic after the supers are removed, and yes both treatments are needed shown by washes. I would love to add a third treatment to the mix just for diversity or perhaps to cut the mites back. I would be very interested in understanding how your planning to fit it in to your total treatment regime. 
thanks


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

While I can't comment on Ian's management style, as the distributor of the ProVap 110, I can tell you it's 250 watts, 2.2 amps and yes it will run off an inverter.


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

It draws 250w, 2.2 amps, 110v so if you were to add an inverter just watch your truck output. Fried alternator comes to mind, but I run a crane off my truck with extra battery and heavy alternator so I'm thinking I'll tap into that 
I use Apivar in the spring (so far still my stand by) and I used the VM late last fall to clean up my high mite counts. The VM worked very well.
My plan forward; 

Apivar >>applied in my singles, rotated strips
After the last honey boxes come off I'm slapping down a shop towel OA Glycerin mix to test out its efficacy
And then take advantage of my fall broodless period and slow work days with a OAV round


----------



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

aran said:


> this provap gadget is almost $500!!


If you have more than a hundred hives you are likely to spend more than that on a single round of Apivar mite treatments. If it is durable....it would be a bargain.
Remember....this is the commercial forum.


----------



## ABruce (Dec 27, 2013)

Ian said:


> It draws 250w, 2.2 amps, 110v so if you were to add an inverter just watch your truck output. Fried alternator comes to mind, but I run a crane off my truck with extra battery and heavy alternator so I'm thinking I'll tap into that
> I use Apivar in the spring (so far still my stand by) and I used the VM late last fall to clean up my high mite counts. The VM worked very well.
> My plan forward;
> 
> ...


Thank you, for sharing 
I read with interest about the oa/glycerin and will be watching for more data. I would sure like to find an effective alternative to Apivar for cool spring treatment. I was going to use OA during the broodless period but in November I still had good amounts of capped brood and by Dec 1 it was cold and snow covered. I am really not sure when to fit it in to our climate. I have the varrox unit and the one you show would obviously be faster and less intrusive. as far as opening up the entrance to get a pan in .


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

From the limited experience I have, I found OAV a waste of effort and time during brood. My first round last fall did not budge my mite counts. I increased my testing because I wanted to find efficacy but found none. I finally dig down and realized I had late fall patches of brood hatching out... 4/5% washes. Lucky for me I did not see any DWV with those counts,
So then I sent another round a 10 days after just before we put the bees inside. Within a few days I did not find a wash over .5%

The bees seemed indifferent to the OA blast except for the clusters hanging out the front
I rented a VM from a generous neighbour. I was intrigued by the chat of OAV here on Beesource so I thought I'd give it a try 

Beesource made me money


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

aran said:


> that looks awesome.. however this provap gadget is almost $500!!


In "Beespeak" the cost of 3 overpriced nucs


----------



## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

snl said:


> In "Beespeak" the cost of 3 overpriced nucs


I bought the Provap 110 and love it.

Similar to the purchase of the FLIR ONE thermal imaging @ $250. I saved at least 10 colonies that were high in the hive and needed adjustment and some care before they potentially starved.

Just saving one paid for the devise. 

And I never had to open a hive to know right were the needy ones were.


----------



## marios (Nov 20, 2012)

Ian just bought one myself are you planning on drilling 1/4 hoes in your boxes or using an entrance board with a 1/4 inch hole , plan on testing it out on friday, A friend wants to make a handle extension, he doesnt want to bend over 2000 times he said


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Ian and others. The unit looks tidy and I think would be a good fit for the 100-1500 hive outfits. Assuming it is durable I would consider it a bargain.

Lastly it looks to me that you are using the wrong cartridges. Even though you are using charcoal cartridges you are supposed to use organic vapour/acid gas cartridges. The charcoal only leave some oxalic acid particles through. I could taste it. Not so much with the organic vapour/acid gas cartridges unless they were well used.

Jean-Marc


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Special order;
Sperian NIOSH 100300

Seems to work


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Oh yes, I grabbed the wrong mask in the vid, those are organic vapour cartridges, they don't work for OA gas. I later bought these other filters Acid gass filters on special order.


----------



## Gazelle (May 17, 2015)

I want one!


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

jean-marc said:


> Ian and others. The unit looks tidy and I think would be a good fit for the 100-1500 hive outfits. Assuming it is durable I would consider it a bargain.


Some of the larger outfits are buying several and sending the crews out to various yards to vaporize. Compared to VM vaporizer (which is about 10 seconds faster per hive but with no measured dosage / hive ) and at about $4500, several ProVaps are inexpensive. 
If something goes wrong with the VM, you have no backup. With several ProVaps, you're still vaporizing. As to durability, it's rock solid. If it should break (other than being run over or just carelessness) the entire insides can be swapped out in about 30 seconds.


----------



## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

marios said:


> Ian just bought one myself are you planning on drilling 1/4 hoes in your boxes or using an entrance board with a 1/4 inch hole , plan on testing it out on friday, A friend wants to make a handle extension, he doesnt want to bend over 2000 times he said


I bought one too Mario . I will be running mine through the top entrances when things start to warm up a bit.


----------



## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

This one looks cool! I wonder what the juice in the bottle is? OA? Looks real fast and furious. Might be a little dangerous to your health, fire hazard.Probbaly kills lotsa mites:banana:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe_kGbaFMoA

Nick. Never an tell what you find on youtube!


----------



## funwithbees (Mar 27, 2010)

after further consideration, looks like amatraz and fgmo. Not good!
nick:digging:


----------



## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I wonder what is causing the fogger to flare up like that, The only thing I can think of is his propane container being full allows liquid propane to the jet if it is tilted too low. These guys seem to use ethyl alcohol to dissolve the OA so I wonder if its not possible to ignite the fog. They don't seem to worry about that.
Johno


----------



## manddhoney (Dec 22, 2012)

can you use a truck battery with inverter bungied to a hand truck in fields; instead of running off your truck ?


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

manddhoney said:


> can you use a truck battery with inverter bungied to a hand truck in fields; instead of running off your truck ?


Yes, the drawback to a portable 12 volt portable battery pack that also has an AC inverter is limited run time. 

The 12 volt vaporizers typically draw in the range of 160 watts, the ProVap is 250 watts (plus some overhead watts consumed by the inverter itself). So one might get around _half the runtime using an battery/inverter powered ProVap compared to a 12 volt vaporizer powered by that same battery pack. That is why I suggested that an inverter be used with a running engine. OR Just use a small generator. I saw the generators at Harbor Freight today for $89!

_


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Gosh, Larry, that line sounds familiar, but I can't quite place it! :scratch:


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> Gosh, Larry, that line sounds familiar, but I can't quite place it! :scratch:


No sense reinventing the wheel!


----------



## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

I do not quite agree with Larry about the power draw, first the wands run 2 to 3 minutes per hive the band heater type maybe less than a minute per hive so theoretically you should be able to do at least the same amount of hives with the band heater type as with the 12v type now of course if your band heater is only about 150 w then you are still better off. The other consideration is that the 300w device is temperature controlled and between hives will switch off the power to control the temp. FWIW.
Johno


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Most of Larry's comment was 'borrowed' from a post I made in another thread, here:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...he-new-ProVap-Vaporizer&p=1511794#post1511794

I am referring to the power (watts) drawn by the respective devices, over a fixed period of time. I agree that the _actual number_ of hives that may be able to be vaporized by each device within that fixed time period is _not_ the same thing as the 'run time' of each device.

The 12 volt vaporizers that are operating from a portable battery pack are in a different market segment (and price range) than the ProVap 110 that requires 110 volts AC. The point of the ProVap is to vaporize a lot of hives in a relatively short time period (compared to a 12 volt model). And if you want to vaporize a lot of hives, a portable 'jump pack' is a poor choice compared to a 'engine driven' portable power source (generator, 'running' vehicle, etc [or powerline AC if available]).


FYI, Larry's 'compressor' reference above is a typo. He meant "generator" (as per a PM). 

.


----------



## dgl1948 (Oct 5, 2005)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> The 12 volt vaporizers that are operating from a portable battery pack are in a different market segment (and price range) than the ProVap 110 that requires 110 volts AC. The point of the ProVap is to vaporize a lot of hives in a relatively short time period (compared to a 12 volt model). And if you want to vaporize a lot of hives, a portable 'jump pack' is a poor choice compared to a 'engine driven' portable power source (generator, 'running' vehicle, etc [or powerline AC if available]).
> 
> 
> FYI, Larry's 'compressor' reference above is a typo. He meant "generator" (as per a PM).
> ...


That may depend on the 12 volt machine. I used the JB700 last fall. In a short day I was doing 250 hives in five yards spread over 80 Kilometers. If thay were in one yard I think 500 would be a number you could do. I was getting about 80 hives per battery.


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

dgl1948 said:


> That may depend on the 12 volt machine.


Yes, I was referring to the 'pan style' vaporizers. But also the 'run time' of a vaporizer powered by a _battery_ is highly dependent on the capacity of the battery. The post where I originally wrote my comment (that Larry 'borrowed') was with respect to a Sears/Kmart portable jump pack combo air compressor. I highly doubt that a device like that will do anywhere near 80 vaporizations on a single charge.


----------



## Beekkirk (Mar 7, 2014)

Picked one of these up from Mann Lake a few weeks ago. I remember seeing a video of one about a year ago and couldnt find it again, then stumbled into it. This thing is absolutely awesome!!!!! I was REALLY pissed off with the lega and was planning on using multiple varrox vaporizers at a time this year. Not anymore

A syrup pump and this provap 110 is really going to help me expand my beekeeping operation with the limited free time I have. I suppose ill be able to manage 1/3 more hives with these tools


----------



## nediver (May 26, 2013)

I think this thing is great. I use a Varrox, but would use this if and when I get above a certain amount of hives. Time being money. Also treating through a small hole is genius. 

I was envious watching.


----------



## Smoke'm (Feb 25, 2012)

We have been using oxcalic vapour for several years making several rounds during the winter while the bees are broodless. Our first unit was built by Cor DeWit from Alberta. It started breaking down after a several years but we where also looking for somthing faster at that point. We then used temperature ajustable Dewalt heat guns for a year. They still where not fast enough and we where not sure it worked to well. We did get the mite count down but it seemed inconsistant.
I went to the meeting in Texas this winter looked around and bought a Varroa Cannon (simular to the VM). Really liked that I could adjust the temperature and the parts are simple. I can change them in the field if I need to. (we carry a extra thermocouple and heater with us). 
My understanding is that when you get OA too hot you change it to Formic Acid, Carbon Monoxide and other thing that are not OA so we run around 170C. We do get a build up of crud in the area where the OA boils that has to be cleaned out after about 16 hives. After seeing the ProVap video I did some testing. If I run it at 230C I produce clouds of vapour and get no crud build up. Which leaves me wondering which temperature is best? The mites where still dropping till about day six after the first treatment when we had it set at 165C. The second treatment only dropped a few mites. We managed to do 568 hives in 19 different yards in a day with two guys. If we did not have to clean it out we could be faster and more consistant. What advice do you fine people have? This may have been discussed before I have been away from the forum for awhile.
Albert


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ya your right 220 cooks it out real nice, the temp drops to 195 , vapour slows down, 
Zero residue after burnt out with the ProVap

What is too hot ?


----------



## Smoke'm (Feb 25, 2012)

Medhat the PA from Alberta cautioned me several years ago about going over 160C. When I talked to him about this machine he said running it arouind 170 should be fine. We did not have a along time to talk so I did not get a chance to ask a lot of questions.
I do not care if I have to use twice as much acid to get the mites to drop. The OA is not expensive. I use 99.6% pure costs about $100 for 25KG. If I can turn up the heat and still be effective more consistant and faster I would be happier. I could also trust that my guys could use it by themselves. 
Albert


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Smoke'm said:


> Medhat the PA from Alberta cautioned me several years ago about going over 160C. When I talked to him about this machine he said running it arouind 170 should be fine. We did not have a along time to talk so I did not get a chance to ask a lot of questions.
> I do not care if I have to use twice as much acid to get the mites to drop. The OA is not expensive. I use 99.6% pure OA costs about $100 for 25KG. If I can turn up the heat and still be effective more consistant and faster I would be happier. I could also trust that my guys could use it by themselves.
> Albert


Temp has been discussed here on Beesource so I'm sure someone will chime in.
I used the VM last fall, that unit sure blasted out the vapour, I'm sure it was over temp... but I really don't know because I had no way of knowing what was happening on that machine. It killed mites , lots of mites. 

This ProVap is nice because dose can be exactly controlled and temp can be exactly controlled. 220 is the preset and suggested temp to sublimate


----------



## Ben Little (Apr 9, 2012)

Smoke'm said:


> Medhat the PA from Alberta cautioned me several years ago about going over 160C. When I talked to him about this machine he said running it arouind 170 should be fine. We did not have a along time to talk so I did not get a chance to ask a lot of questions.
> I do not care if I have to use twice as much acid to get the mites to drop. The OA is not expensive. I use 99.6% pure costs about $100 for 25KG. If I can turn up the heat and still be effective more consistant and faster I would be happier. I could also trust that my guys could use it by themselves.
> Albert


So, what do you actually buy for OA ? Is it from a hardware store for wood bleach ? I have been looking for a cheaper source for it


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

OA decomposes to form formic and carbon monoxide at 372f (about 190c) . In 2 grams, there is not enough formic formed to kill mites and there is not enough carbon monoxide to hurt the bees. When we were using the Varrox (and the Sussex study did the same) we just kept the Varrox hot the entire time (not cooling down between hives, just adding OA and moving the wand into the hive (of course wearing a respirator the entire time). We found (as the Sussex study did) that the mite kill was just as effective using the Varrox hot as letting it cool down in between hives, adding OA inserting the wand and letting it heat and vaporize. 

The ProVap temp is set to 230c which is 446f. Leaving the Varrox "hot" the entire time well exceeded 230c! When developing the PV110, we just kept increasing the temperature till we got to point where the OA completely vaporized, the stem dig not clog and mites were killed. Need to know also that the temp of PV drops to about 210-215c when the OA drops into the bowl and slightly cools as it makes it way thru the stem, into the hive. So, I'm GUESSING it's not too much above what Medhat's temp of 170 when entering the hive.

Now, I can't explain the "why" when the temps are so high that it "works," (as it flies in the face of all we know about sublimating OA to kill mites) but it does (just as in the Sussex Study).......


----------



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

_*My opinion* _:shhhh: is that its likely that the temperature displayed is not necessarily the temperature of the oxalic acid itself as it sublimates. The displayed temperature is read from a thermocouple, and -presuming the thermocouple is reasonably accurate- is the temperature of the material the thermocouple is in contact with.

Consider a pan of 'boiling' water on a stove. We *_know_* the steam boiling off is at 212 degrees F, but some of the water in the pan is less than 212 degrees, otherwise it would also be steam. And the bottom of the pan is hotter than 212 degrees, otherwise it would not be adding heat to the water. And the stove element is hotter still. So how would you build a thermocouple into the stove to measure the exact temperature of the steam boiling off?

I'd say that would be a very difficult task unless perhaps one were to suspend a thermocouple directly above the water, but always fully surrounded by the steam.

The thermocouple in theProVap faces a similar challenge.


----------



## Smoke'm (Feb 25, 2012)

Hi Ben
I am lucky to have Anchem in London. One of my guys lives very close so he swings by and picks it up. After looking at their site it seems they would ship to you.
Albert


----------



## Smoke'm (Feb 25, 2012)

I have two more yards to do and that will finish my third round. I am going to turn up the temperature and see what drops. I am not expecting much. Most of the mites are already dead.
Thank for the advise. I find it hard to go against beliefs that I have held for so long but I think it is called learning.
Albert


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Ya but science is science. Which means are we actually sublimating the Oxalic Acid or are we simply cooking it off into another decomposed form
Convenience is not a beekeepers asset


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Smoke'm said:


> Hi Ben
> I am lucky to have Anchem in London. One of my guys lives very close so he swings by and picks it up. After looking at their site it seems they would ship to you.
> Albert


Look at Alphachem in Toronto. I was not happy with the shipping rates but their price is good if you pick up.


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Ian said:


> Ya but science is science. Which means are we actually sublimating the Oxalic Acid or are we simply cooking it off into another decomposed form. Convenience is not a beekeepers asset


True, but mite drops are........


----------



## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

snl said:


> True, but mite drops are........


Too many ???


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

snl said:


> When developing the PV110, we just kept increasing the temperature till we got to point where the OA completely vaporized, the stem dig not clog and mites were killed.


snl - Interesting info on the development and use of the Varrox and Provap. It sounds like the working temperature of 230C for the Provap was determined by trail and error based on finding a temp that prevented the vaporized OA from re-condensing before it could exit the nozzle.

I find that I do get a small amount of OA re-condensing in the Provap nozzle, and I get some OA re-condensing on frames within an inch or two of the nozzle. The unit is easy to use and I get great mite kills, but, if possible, I would like to reduce the amount of OA that re-condenses before it is distributed throughout the hive. I know the set temperature of the Provap is adjustable. Would you suggest I go up in temp, or has your experience shown that 230C a relatively firm upper limit that shouldn't be exceeded?

TIA


----------



## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

shinbone said:


> I know the set temperature of the Provap is adjustable. Would you suggest I go up in temp, or has your experience shown that 230C a relatively firm upper limit that shouldn't be exceeded? TIA


Me, I'd leave it set at 230 as we have found that to be optimum.


----------



## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Roger that. Thanks.


----------



## David Medinger (Sep 5, 2014)

Ian said:


> It draws 250w, 2.2 amps, 110v so if you were to add an inverter just watch your truck output. Fried alternator comes to mind, but I run a crane off my truck with extra battery and heavy alternator so I'm thinking I'll tap into that
> I use Apivar in the spring (so far still my stand by) and I used the VM late last fall to clean up my high mite counts. The VM worked very well.
> My plan forward;
> 
> ...


Hello Ian
I tried the shop towels after the honey pull.
I did it on singles (between frame bars and hive cover with à 1 cm gap)after 3 weeks there was still no mites dropping and the towels barely shewed.
My guess is that they have to be applied just like Randy recommends, in between two brood chambers, in the middle of the brood.
I ended up removing the towels and vaporizing..
Hope this will save you some time.
Dave


----------



## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Me and a buddy got to use one a couple weeks ago and it's slower than I was hoping. I would fill the spare tub as he was vaporizing. We used a Honda generator for power but it still took the better part of a day to do 180 or so in two yards 3 miles apart.

Has anyone took and tried an extended nozzle? The thought of having to bend down to the pallet entrance is a major pain in the back.


----------



## beesohappy (Jun 3, 2009)

Also, does anyone have experience using this in California? From what I understand your supposed to use it while your hive is broodless. When would that be? Seems to me since we feed our bees to fatten them up for winter and we feed them to ramp them up for almonds it's almost impossible for them to be without brood.


----------



## jean-marc (Jan 13, 2005)

Ben:

You can get xalic acid from Univar. They have warehouses in Dorval, Quebec or Toronto.

I am not from California, but the only time that they might be broodless is likely December/early January. It might take several applications, to get all the varroa if there is some brood throughout the year. Seems to me that 2 guys should do better than 188 in a day. I would also consider getting a lightweight portable stool to sit whist treating hives as opposed to bending the back. Work your legs a bit, squatting and sitting, and save your back.

Jean-Marc


----------



## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

The Provap looks a lot heavier than my home made vaporizer, I drill a 1/4" hole in the center of the frame rest up at a 30 degree angle at the back of the hive and when I insert the outlet of the vaporizer in this hole I just let it hang there while I load up the next cap. By the time the next cap is loaded the vaporizer comes out of the hive and we go on to the next one. During the summer I have only about 20 hives in a yard but one of the beekeepers using my band heater vaporizer has treated 65 hives in 60 minutes all on his own.
Johno


----------



## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

beesohappy said:


> Also, does anyone have experience using this in California?.


Don't know about Stockton, but in Jenny Lind there is no broodless time. 
I can do 64 hives with the Pro Vap in a little less than 1 hour from the time the truck stops to the time I'm driving away.

Jenny Lind is a wide spot in the road 20 miles east of Stockton.


----------



## johnny2 (Feb 6, 2017)

is it similar to the way water turns to steam, you can only get water to its temperature point of steam and no hotter if you dont contain it and build pressure with it to raise the boiling point. steam is crazy cool at 300 psi!
this was in reply to OA getting over heated an turning to CO. I dont know why it didnt post the quote.?????


----------



## MABee (Jun 18, 2007)

Flyer Jim, what time of the year are you treating with the provap? And what kind of results are you seeing?


----------



## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

MABees< just got it end of last year used it mid November, 4 times 5 days apart. That put me into December didn't go into them then. I got the pro vap mostly for splits and packages.


----------



## johng (Nov 24, 2009)

We have a similar problem here in Florida. We don't get much of a brood break. I find right after Thanksgiving to be about as broodless as we get. But, you can get a hive almost completely broodless if you make your splits with queen cells. About 19 days after the split the hive will be almost broodless. Its a great time to hit them with OAV or dribble.


----------



## Beecop (Aug 10, 2012)

How long of a burst of vapor do you apply to each hive? I would assume it would depend on the extent of infestation.


----------

