# Preservative for Bottom Boards



## Bob Nelson (Feb 10, 2005)

Copper napthenate is the best all around for good preservative characteristics and bee toxicity tolerance. 

Dadant has this product called Perm-E8 which is 8% active ingredient. It can be diluted to 1-2% for treating wood. I go 2% on ground contact items and would put the plywood of pallets in that arena due to moisture accumulation, etc. It is cut with either water if water based or mineral spirits if petroleum based. I have not bought any for quite some time and do not know which the Perm-E8 is.

It is pricey but very safe and effective. The petroleum based is stinky and readily absorbs through skin so personal protective equipment is essential. It can be painted or dipped. I prefer dipping for a minute or two. It dries rapidly and can be placed in contact with bees without harm in pretty short order.

Bob Nelson


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## Broke-T (Jul 9, 2008)

I get a water soluable copper napthenate from these folks in Memphis TN.
Its called Cunapsol-5 and comes in 5 gal can. Cut it 4 to 1 with water.

ISK Biocides
1-800-238-2523

Call and they will ship it straight to you.

Johnny


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## bmandave (Sep 25, 2009)

Thank you for the information! I had heard of the copper napthenate before but wasn't sure how safe it was to use around the bees. I will do some checking on prices and go from there. Dadants is only a 30 minute drive for me so it might be cheaper there by the time I figure in shipping costs. Thanks again!

Dave


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

Dip them in hot rosin/wax as has been described on this forum before for hive boxes.
Paint them, or linseed oil.
Or make screened bottomed pallets.
One Beek in MT. dips his pallets in hot beeswax! (he must have lots of wax to spare).
I am planning on building my screened pallets with untreated lumber and doing the Hot Dip, then attach the screen afterwards. (hopefully everything works out!) :thumbsup:
I have thought about going treated, but just can't get myself to throw more chemicals at the bees! (just my thoughts!)


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## emichaelbennett (Feb 28, 2009)

I m not positive, but I feel It is best to keep treated wood away from the bees. I make my clip pallets with untreated 3/4 cdx. I use stainless screws so it can be replaced.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>It dries rapidly and can be placed in contact with bees without harm in pretty short order.

how do you know that? I have been trying to find heath info on that for over a year now and everything I read is harmful to anything and everything it touches.

So I avoided treating the tops of my bottom boards with it, stinken stuff. But the smell wears away and the colour fades. So maybe in time it becomes less toxic,.?
Or maybe Ill just dip the whole board and be done with it!


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## Rob Renneker (Aug 7, 2006)

I don't use the perm e8/mineral spirits combination in my hives because I don't like the smell of it or the idea of bees tracking it on my frames. That being said, I have seen guys use it on all hive components (for many years) and have not seen a difference in hive strength or bee mortality between a treated and non treated hive.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Thats a hard observation to make looking from the outside,
the bees have to be traacking something around off the treated material


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## Rob Renneker (Aug 7, 2006)

Sure they're tracking it around. That's why I hesitate using it; I have read the material safety data sheets on a barrel of Perm E8 and it isn't something I would want trace amounts of in my product. I also think bees get exposed to enough farm chemicals the way it is around here and I'm not going to make it worse for them. I'm just saying that (in my exprience) by treating woodenware with it you're not going to see piles of dead bees at the entrance or noticeably decreased honey production from that hive. Does it affect the bees in other ways or weaken them in some way? Possibly so.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Ian said:


> Thats a hard observation to make looking from the outside,
> the bees have to be traacking something around off the treated material


I know for a fact that Rob has seen the inside of a lot of hives as well.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Its hard for someone trying to find a hive treatment product that isnt harmful for the bees. There are products out there that arnt recommended for use, period. And then there are products "perhaps" a little more benign, and could be used in direct contact with the bees nest. 

So what do you do? Im one of those beekeepers whos wondering how much or how close can you use these treatments on bee equipment.

Looking around I cant find anyone who will factually state these treatments will not adulterate the crop or harm the bees.

Lots of anecdotal information out there, isnt there.

Alot of I dont do it, but I know of many who do without harm to their bees or product. 
So what does that mean? Cant hang your hat on it. But I would guess someone reading that would consider that treatment to be okay.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I guess when you pose questions like that on this type of forum you are going to get a little bit of everything but mostly real life and anecdotal experiences, and while they may not be scientific studies they certainly add a lot of good perspective. I don't expect Rob to know if they are tracking it around and if that might be harmful but I am interested in knowing how it may or may not have appeared to him to have affected the hives he has been around.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Personally I wouldn't use plywood. Eventually it will delaminate.

As to treatment, for surfaces not in major contact with bees go ahead. I don't know what timbers are available in your country, but over here for bee contact parts of bottom boards, some guys, me included, use some of our native hardwoods that don't rot, or at least last a heckava long time. Anything like that available to you?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Bob Nelson said:


> It dries rapidly and can be placed in contact with bees without harm in pretty short order.


Recent research suggests a direct correlation between copper napthenate and memory loss in honey bees. 
http://www.extension.org/pages/Proceedings_of_the_American_Bee_Research_Conference,_2009
Check out the abstract for number 5. In that study they only had a single surface inside the hive coated with copper napthanete.


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## Scott J. (Feb 6, 2007)

If a person used the preservative and was worried about harming the bees, that you could put a coat of latex just in the area the bees would come in contact of the bottom board.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Interesting link Beemandan, It only states that a 2% solution was applied and allowed to air dry before placing in the hive without giving a time frame. It would be interesting to see these results at different time intervals.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>If a person used the preservative and was worried about harming the bees, that you could put a coat of latex just in the area the bees would come in contact of the bottom board. 


good point Scott


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Boy, we beekeepers sure have become over sensitive to this kind of stuff, eh?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> It only states that a 2% solution was applied and allowed to air dry before placing in the hive without giving a time frame.


I did talk to Jennifer Berry about this. My memory being short, I only recall that the Cu nap was painted on (not dipped or soaked) and allowed to dry for what, I recall, I thought was a sufficient time. If I come across more details, I'll post them.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

The southern boys could come up with osage orange (bodock) and make the parts that touch the ground, it doesn't rot in a beekeepers working lifetime.


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