# Sugar syrup PH



## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

If honey is around 3.5 ph and sugar is about 6 ph, how much vineger would you have to add to your 1 to 1 sugar mix to drop the ph to 4 or 4.5 ph (trying to get it a little closer ). Would apple cider vineger be best or plain old white vineger, and would that amout be accepted by the bees? I've added a table spoon before to help with mold but thats it..


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## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

I add a bit of vinegar too, shouldn't matter what kind. I do a quick "sploot" (a very short pour, maybe a teaspoon or two) in four gallons of syrup. While honey and syrup do differ, feeding syrup is often to mimic nectar (not honey), so frantically matching honey pH as recommended by some I think may be a bit of a misplaced effort. A little boost in acidity seems to make syrup more attractive to the bees, and helps prevent mold.


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## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

I've read that most bee pests, benifit from sugar feedings compared to honey feedings, In a bad flow year, i often feed several gallons of syrup per hive, I was wondering if adding enough vinegar to change the ph would help the bees winter better on a sugar based honey.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

When I tried vinegar it seemed to set off a feeding frenzy. I use Ascorbic acid (I buy the 1000mg vitamin C from Sam's). I put 7 in the water to dissolve before adding the sugar to make 5 gallons of 5:3 syrup and the pH comes out around 4.5 if I remember right which is one end of the honey range.


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## spunky (Nov 14, 2006)

Yea, I was wondering this also. I use 2 teaspoons of lemon juice per quart , but dont have any ph test strips


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## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

Ok, thanks, thats not near as much as I would think to drop the PH. they must like the smell of the vinegar ,I can use that to my advantage certain times of the year.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I had PH strips last year and checked my sugar syrup ph. It was surprising that in a five gallon bucket, about a 1/4 cup was all that was needed to lower the ph quite a bit. My test strips did not show much difference between 1/4 cup and 2 cups per 5 gallons of syrup. I do the slosh method of measuring too. Probably about a 1/2 cup + asorbic acid if I have it+ a splash of prohealth. Sure smells yummy.

The main ingredient of apple cider vinegar, or any vinegar, is acetic acid. However, vinegars also have other acids, vitamins, mineral salts, and amino acids. In trying to suppliment a nutritionally complete feed for the bees, vinegar is very benificial in my opinion.

Anyone who makes bread and butter pickles knows the brine mix is about 50% straight vinegar and 50%sugar(+ginger and other spices) This makes a zesty and tasty mix. So the sugar cuts even straight vinegars zip quite well. 
That's where your best tasting tomatoes get their flavor. A Balance of both sugars and acids. My bees have liked it quite well. Your syrup won't ferment as fast in warm weather.

And a yellow jacket tip.
If you have a jar of fermented thick 2:1 fall syrup, set it out late at night near the bee yard if you are having hornets robbing your hives. They are active far earlier in the morning than honey bees, get into the thick syrup in a frenzy, getting sticky wings and legs and can't get out. By the time the honeybees come out of the hive, the jar will have so many yellow jackets and hornets in it, the honeybees won't go near the trap. By evening the jar will have hundreds of preditors dead in the sticky fermented mess. A good way to get at least some use out of the wasted sugar


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## lakebilly (Aug 3, 2009)

Michael, setting off a feeding frenzy a bad thing?

Lauri, & Michael could you be more specific about your recipe portions?


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## cdanderson (May 26, 2007)

Would honey b healthy serve the same purpose ?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Michael, setting off a feeding frenzy a bad thing?

In my opinion, yes. Far too often a feeding frenzy degenerates into a robbing frenzy. I try to avoid "frenzies".


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## BGhoney (Sep 26, 2007)

It is time here to set out yellow traps, I've seen a few queens zipping around. At this time of year here, its hard to get them to take syrup, I ment I would add a little vinager to perk them up a bit, not much chance of frenzys when nobodys flying. Its running 45 degrees and drizzly.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

As to white vinegar versus other vinegars, if you want to be a perfectionist, white.

The reason, brown vinegars have an "ash" content. Too much ash, causes dysentry, which during winter when bees are confined, promotes the spread of nosema and can kill the hive.

However, I doubt the quantity of vinegar in the syrup will be enough to cause serious harm, but if all vinegar is the same price, no reason not to go white.

Also, a question Michael Bush, I am surprised you feed sugar, I'd heard (second hand) that sugar was like poison, in some branches of treatment free teaching. What is your take on sugar?


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Hello to Battleground WA!

Yellow jackets already????Say it's not so! Wacky weather...
Thanks for the warning BG Honey


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

BTW I have increased my numbers of small cell treatment free hives, meaning some of them have not had time to store enough for the winter. ( We are going into winter here). I cannot feed them honey because that's all from treated hives and may contain treatment residue. So I have bought sugar and am about to start feeding, in fact I am planning to start that today. But I have thought hard about this because I am wanting to properly follow treatment free philosophies on the treatment free hives.

Thus my question to Michael Bush.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Also, a question Michael Bush, I am surprised you feed sugar, I'd heard (second hand) that sugar was like poison, in some branches of treatment free teaching. What is your take on sugar? 

Here are some quotes from the web site/book. The first paragraph is probably what you are looking for:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm#what

"I prefer to LEAVE them honey. Some think you should only feed honey. From a perfectionist view, I like that. From a practical view, it's difficult for me. First, honey sets off robbing a lot worse than syrup. Second, honey spoils a lot more easily if I water it down, and I hate to see honey go to waste. Third, honey is very expensive (if you buy it or just don't sell it) and labor intensive to extract it. It seems wrong to me to go to the trouble of extracting it, only to feed it back. I'd rather leave enough honey on the hives and, in a pinch, steal some from a stronger hive for the weaker hives, rather than feeding. But if it comes down to needing to feed, I feed off, old, or crystallized honey if I have it, otherwise I feed sugar syrup."

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm#naturalfood

"Sugar syrup has a much higher pH (6.0) than Honey (3.2 to 4.5) (Sugar is more alkali). Conversely, honey has a much lower pH than sugar syrup (Honey is more acidic). This affects the reproductive capability of virtually every brood disease in bees plus Nosema. They all reproduce better at pH 6.0 than at 4.5.
Chalkbrood as example

"Lower pH values (equivalent to those found in honey, pollen, and brood food) drastically reduced enlargement and germ-tube production. Ascosphaera apis appears to be a pathogen highly specialized for life in honeybee larvae." --Author. Dept. Biological Sci., Plymouth Polytechnic, Drake Circus, Plymouth PL4 8AA, Devon, UK. Library code: Bb. Language: En. Apicultural Abstracts from IBRA: 4101024

"Similar information is available concerning other bee diseases. Try a search for pH and AFB or EFB or Nosema and you’ll find similar results on their reproductive capability related to the pH or honey and sugar syrup

"Differences in pH affect other beneficial and benign organisms in the hive. The other 8,000 microorganisms that are also in the hive are affected by changes in pH. Using sugar syrup also disrupts the ecological balance of the hive by disrupting the pH of the food in the hive and the food in the bees’ gut. "


"It is well known that improper diet makes one susceptible to disease. Now is it not reasonable to believe that extensive feeding of sugar to bees makes them more susceptible to American Foul Brood and other bee disease? It is known that American Foul Brood is more prevalent in the north than in the south. Why? Is it not because more sugar is fed to bees in the north while here in the south the bees can gather nectar most of the year which makes feeding sugar syrup unnecessary?"--Better Queens, Jay Smith 

http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm

"Honey and real pollen are the proper food of bees. Sugar syrup has a much higher pH (6.0) than Honey (3.2 to 4.5) (Sugar is more alkali). Stating the same thing conversely, honey has a much lower pH than sugar syrup (Honey is more acidic). This affects the reproductive capability of virtually every brood disease in bees plus Nosema. The brood diseases all reproduce more at the pH of sugar (6.0) than at the pH of honey (~4.5). And this is not to mention that honey and real pollen are more nutritious than pollen substitute and sugar syrup. Artificial pollen substitute makes for short lived, unhealthy bees. "


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

found this thread by doing a search. just exactly what i needed, thanks to the posters.


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## woodguyrob (Jul 29, 2010)

My father in law is a food scientist, he often says if any food should be banned because of negative health side effects it is sugar....just sayin'


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

In the midwest here...the water is buffered heavily so adjusting ph is incredibly hard. It bounces back on you after you have it just right. 

Was thinking about this subject because without thinking about it, we chemically change the ph of a colony by adding sugar syrup. Its been done for so long and what alternative is there? Sure, frames of honey reserves would be nice but when you are starting with swarms, cutouts, and packages you feed. 
Only have one apiary where I can open feed honey that I steal from cutouts, the rest are urban and would become nuisances. Am tempted to use my feeders with honey in them but am pretty sure my neighbors wouldn't appreciate that. Bee healthy or some sort of additive is what I'm going to end up using. Any recommendations from the Bush's would be appreciated.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

woodguyrob said:


> My father in law is a food scientist, he often says if any food should be banned because of negative health side effects it is sugar....just sayin'


Bees are not humans though. I agree for us it is terrible. For bees it is fuel to be burned like gas. The difference is similiar to the difference between 100% gasoline and ethanol/gas fuel. One is better for your engine and will promote longevity. One is cheaper and can gum up and slightly shorten the lifespan. However cheap fuel gets down the road a whole lot better than no fuel. Feed those bees when they need it!

Oh and I use 1 cup of white vinegar to 20 gallons of sugar.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>In the midwest here...the water is buffered heavily so adjusting ph is incredibly hard. It bounces back on you after you have it just right. 

That is an issue. It also changes by temperature and it changes as the water absorbs oxygen.

>Bee healthy or some sort of additive is what I'm going to end up using. Any recommendations from the Bush's would be appreciated

The additives do just as much harm as the pH by killing off the microbes and in addition they cause robbing.


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Great info here folks. I would be interested in any other specific recipes that you all have used to lower the PH. I see the following:
-I do a quick "sploot" (a very short pour, maybe a teaspoon or two) in four gallons of syrup. 
-7 in the water to dissolve before adding the sugar to make 5 gallons of 5:3 syrup 
-2 teaspoons of lemon juice per quart 
-1 cup of DWV (Distilled white vinegar) to 20 gallons of syrup (However I don't have a grain amount on the DWV). 

I am feeding 3 hives today and was thinking of the issues I've had in the past. With hives I have fed sugar syrup or done the mountain camp method I had dysentery very badly. One hive 2 years ago I put the dry sugar on top in January because they were light and that set off such dysentery that the then strong hive died. HBH I have used once and that set off robbing like crazy. I won't use that ever again. I have about 3 gallons of feed give or take and I'm going to put in about 1/8 cup of either DWV (If I have it) or ACV (I know we have that). 

I would love to hear if any of you are still on and have any updates you could give to this very old thread. Hats off to Beesource for keeping these posts still for us to find.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

I instead of mountain camp, try Lauri's sugar bricks for emergency feeding to which vinegar is added to lower Ph. A search for Lauri's sugar bricks here will get you the recipe. Ignore ones that modify it. J


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

What is the possibility that dysentery had nothing to do with either nosema or PH of feed. Most common nosema is N. ceranae and I believe dysentery is not typical symptom. Bees do a good job of adjusting PH. it is what bees do. 

That said, a bit of vinegar or a splash of bleach sure helps prevent mold in syrup.


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Unless someone can cite a study of sugar syrup of varying acidity that is statistically valid none of us know the answer or can justify having a strong opinion.

I feed 2:1 syrup from a chicken waterer sort of contraption, with a bit of lemongrass oil and about .25g/gallon thymol to prevent mold.

Never had any problems with it. Don't know if the bees would do better (or not) if I added some organic acid to lower the pH of the syrup.

My sample size is not all that large.

THe only study I have seen on feeding showed that feeding syrup showed lower mortality than feeding honey, but the quality of the study was poor. However, it is unlikely that feeding syrup with a pH of 7 or so is significantly worse.

I suppose that bees, like humans, are quite capable of maintaining the proper pH of their hemolymph without regard to the pH of their food. Since I don't think the various bee pathogens are actually reproducing in the syrup (as opposed to the bees) I don't think the pH of the syrup (within palatability limits) makes any difference at all, but I could easily be persuaded differently by a detailed explanation of bee metabolism or preferably by actual data. 

I know of people who eat an alkaline diet, supposing that putting alkaline food into their stomach (which has a pH below 4) somehow changes the pH of their body. There is no science to this, but reasonably intelligent people do it, which I find completely mystifying.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

What is the Ph of nectar? You are feeding a nectar substitute, not a honey substitute,

Crazy Rolad


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

Fivej said:


> I instead of mountain camp, try Lauri's sugar bricks for emergency feeding to which vinegar is added to lower Ph. A search for Lauri's sugar bricks here will get you the recipe. Ignore ones that modify it. J


I will look this up. Sounds interesting. I can also appreciate wanting detailed studies with findings of honey vs. sugar and I don't have anything "official". All I have is my experience. I have struggled with dysentery for a long time and have seen it much worse when I either fed sugar syrup or especially if I fed the mountain camp method / dry sugar on top. Hives that had enough honey to overwinter had next to none that I could see. The telltale signs are bees in the snow with brown poo spots all around (Not just normal, you just know when there's an issue going on) on a day when they shouldn't be flying on a day where it is just barely warm enough for them to peak at the entrance. It's like they can't hold it anymore and they have to get out. then they fall to the snow because it's too cold and don't have the strength or ability to fly back up.


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## Some Bloke (Oct 16, 2021)

A Novice said:


> Unless someone can cite a study of sugar syrup of varying acidity that is statistically valid none of us know the answer or can justify having a strong opinion.


'Possible side effects of sugar supplementary nutrition on honey bee health', Frizzera et al, in Jan 2020's Apidologie. DOI: 10.1007/s13592-020-00745-6

"Since I don't think the various bee pathogens are actually reproducing in the syrup (as opposed to the bees) I don't think the pH of the syrup (within palatability limits) makes any difference at all, but I could easily be persuaded differently by a detailed explanation of bee metabolism or preferably by actual data."

The researchers like Mirjanic ('Impact of different feed on intestine health of honey bees') looking at the dead bees conclude there are various forms of gut damage. Like splitting! I think others have seen massive changes not to the bees directly but their gut flora which they depend on.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Roland said:


> What is the Ph of nectar? You are feeding a nectar substitute, not a honey substitute,
> 
> Crazy Rolad


so I read when nectar is processed by the bee it gets more acidic, IE the bee adds some specifics to the "honey"
so is not a better test to measure the acidity of the cured stored Syrup? and compare this to the cured stored nectar?

GG


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

Some Bloke said:


> 'Possible side effects of sugar supplementary nutrition on honey bee health', Frizzera et al, in Jan 2020's Apidologie. DOI: 10.1007/s13592-020-00745-6
> 
> "Since I don't think the various bee pathogens are actually reproducing in the syrup (as opposed to the bees) I don't think the pH of the syrup (within palatability limits) makes any difference at all, but I could easily be persuaded differently by a detailed explanation of bee metabolism or preferably by actual data."
> 
> The researchers like Mirjanic ('Impact of different feed on intestine health of honey bees') looking at the dead bees conclude there are various forms of gut damage. Like splitting! I think others have seen massive changes not to the bees directly but their gut flora which they depend on.


Oh man!

You going to make us go look that up?

Just a note (fyi) - in armchair science, while it is normal to spend hours looking for a source that supports your presuppositions, it is simply too much work to look up a cited source that might contradict them.

Do you have a link? I would like to read that. Vinegar is cheap, after all.


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## Jack Grimshaw (Feb 10, 2001)

Roland said:


> What is the Ph of nectar? You are feeding a nectar substitute, not a honey substitute,
> 
> Crazy Rolad


Exactly!!
Beekeepers need to remember bee biology.Nectar is primarily sucrose.
As soon as bees put sucrose into their stomachs,an enzyme,invertase, is added which converts the sucrose to glucose and fructose which are the primary sugars in honey.In the process,the honey becomes more acidic.
There is absolutely no need to acidify your syrup!
As usual,Rusty Burlew has written an excellent article on this.

How the honey bee uses invertase


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## Some Bloke (Oct 16, 2021)

A Novice said:


> Oh man!
> 
> You going to make us go look that up?
> 
> ...


Yes, I am going to make you read it, you were the one demanding proof. There will be a test.

Seriously, it's a short paper. I quoted the full title so just feed that into Google and it'll take you straight there. Alternatively, search for the DOI number, which is a unique reference academics use in case their papers move to differenr URL.

I always check my sources. You imply this is not normal?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The problem with lemon juice and vinegar is that it adds smell and that creates robbing issues. I use Ascorbic acid which has been shown to be beneficial to the bees.



https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.3896/IBRA.1.51.3.07










Supplementing with vitamin C the diet of honeybees (Apis mellifera carnica) parasitized with Varroa destructor: effects on antioxidative status - PubMed


We studied a total of eight developmental stages of capped brood and newly emerged workers of Apis mellifera carnica colonies naturally parasitized with Varroa destructor. During winter and early spring four colonies were fed syrup containing 1.8 mg vitamin C kg(-1) (ascorbic acid group; group...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

delber said:


> The telltale signs are bees in the snow with brown poo spots all around (Not just normal, you just know when there's an issue going on) on a day when they shouldn't be flying on a day where it is just barely warm enough for them to peak at the entrance. It's like they can't hold it anymore and they have to get out. then they fall to the snow because it's too cold and don't have the strength or ability to fly back up.


There is some discussion, with those of us that winter bees in very cold conditions and have bees flying out and dying in very cold weather, that it is associated, in part, with a lack of moisture within the hive that the bees can access in order to dilute the sugar or honey during winter.

Bees dying in the snow in the winter is IMO normal as some bees will not make it till spring and rather die outside the hive than in. Too many bees in the snow is a problem, but some, not really. All my hives had this type of activity last winter and all were very strong clusters in the spring.

ETA we have been so focussed on removing excess or all moisture so it doesn't drip back on the bees, via top vent holes and quilt boxes, that it is quite possible we have created too dry of conditions so the bees are actually struggling.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

As has been mentioned in many posts, bees wintering on stores heavy to some crops like canola, sunflower, asters, goldenrod and honeydew that have a high ash content, will fill their guts with excrement quite quickly and either soil the frames or may perish if outside temperatures are severe.

Low cluster humidity from overventilating can cause bees to consume honey in an attempt to free up water and this unnecessary consumption further contributes to filling the gut. Pooping on frame tops and flying out into the snow can look like nosema but may have a beekeeper induced cause.

Many people _pooh pooh_ this scenario but keep your minds open and see where this idea goes in the years ahead. PH levels in feed may be of little consequence and wintering setups that retain bee friendly humidity levels could reduce much of the need for adding winter feed.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

well said crofter, I knew the reasoning just couldn't explain it as well as you did.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

GG - it would be interesting to compare the Ph of stored syrup to stored nectar, but this stubborn German would not likely change his ways.

Crazy Roland


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Roland said:


> GG - it would be interesting to compare the Ph of stored syrup to stored nectar, but this stubborn German would not likely change his ways.
> 
> Crazy Roland


could be we worry for nought.
As well it likely is mixed in with nectar so the mix may be harder to evaluate.
I if needed try for feed early to get it cured. so I presume it is a mix of sorts.

GG


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## delber (Dec 26, 2010)

These are good thoughts about moisture as well. With the hive I was referring to it was a strong hive but were about out of stores when I checked them in January. I put a shim and dry sugar and in a day or two there were hundreds in the snow and the snow was literally brown with so much poo to the point I didn't want to walk in front of the hive. Within a week or two this hive was dead but they were very strong when I put the sugar on. I have had similar issues in the past with dry sugar on top of hives but not to this severity. I do look forward to seeing how things develop in the years to come!!


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## Some Bloke (Oct 16, 2021)

crofter said:


> ... wintering setups that retain bee friendly humidity levels could reduce much of the need for adding winter feed.


This sounds like an argument supporting the use of solid floors.

I favour them myself, but OMFs seem the standard in America.


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## viesest (Jul 13, 2016)

delber said:


> when I checked them in January.


In January maybe is better to give them enzyme inverted fondant. It is more similar to honey then dry sugar.



> snow was literally brown with so much poo


It was mentioned that if bees are infected with nosema that they need to eat more food for same effect.


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

delber said:


> Within a week or two this hive was dead but they were very strong when I put the sugar on. I have had similar issues in the past with dry sugar on top of hives but not to this severity. I do look forward to seeing how things develop in the years to come!!


I don't doubt your experience, but with the number of beekeepers who use large amount of sugar syrup and/or dry sugar, as well as the number of studies on feeding bees sugar in the winter, I am skeptical that the sugar is the cause.

The outcome of dying bees is not necessarily directly related to adding the sugar. Were the bees in starvation mode prior to the sugar being added, did virus levels get so high that the timing of sugar placement inadvertently coincides with the hive death?

A youtube presentation on Winter Bee Biology that, I listened to last night, said that 2/3 of the winter bees in a *healthy* colony actually die in the winter and don't make it to spring. That is a lot of bees, 20,000 bees going into winter, 7,000 come out.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Excellent article on the effects of mites on winter be production AND the effects of the presense of Nosema. How important to have mite numbers down early because the production of the specialist WINTER BEES starts end of Aug. Waiting til Oct. to get rid of the mites has given away most of your game of colony survival. Too little and too late. Even too much, too late wont save the game.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Roland said:


> What is the Ph of nectar? You are feeding a nectar substitute, not a honey substitute,
> 
> Crazy Rolad


Well, I am not aware of any nectar that comes at 2:1 sugar/water concentration. 

Processing of native nectar vs. heavy syrup are not the same even from this particular perspective (for simplicity). Syrup takes much less drying and, hence, handling (i.e., ingesting and spitting back).

Syrup <> nectar.
Syrup <> nectar substitute either.
Syrup == syrup (perhaps a substitute for soda can contents at a nearest gas station trash - that I can see).


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## A Novice (Sep 15, 2019)

delber said:


> These are good thoughts about moisture as well. With the hive I was referring to it was a strong hive but were about out of stores when I checked them in January. I put a shim and dry sugar and in a day or two there were hundreds in the snow and the snow was literally brown with so much poo to the point I didn't want to walk in front of the hive. Within a week or two this hive was dead but they were very strong when I put the sugar on. I have had similar issues in the past with dry sugar on top of hives but not to this severity. I do look forward to seeing how things develop in the years to come!!


I had a similar experience with 4 hives I opened in January - was about 35F out, but they were well sheltered.

However, I didn't add any sugar.

But I lost all 4.

Since then I don't open my hives in January for any reason.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

The "Bull of the Woods" claimed that there was no reason to check bees in winter. If you did not do your due diligence in the fall, it is too late to do anything in January. Winter is quiet time - do not promote activity. 

He also believed a dead hive in January would still be dead in March for first inspection.

Crazy Roland


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## ursa_minor (Feb 13, 2020)

Roland said:


> The "Bull of the Woods" claimed that there was no reason to check bees in winter. If you did not do your due diligence in the fall, it is too late to do anything in January.


While I certainly respect his opinion and he is right, the sticking point is "due diligence". 

Jan. is not too late to save a starving hive, new beekeepers can mess up and when they do, looking at the hives in winter to check the sugar stores, because the bees were caught up on top in a cold snap, is not wrong and can save a hive. IMO, the key is to have a clear cover that does not let out the warm air but can be lifted from within the hive, check, quickly add sugar and leave. It literally takes seconds.

I was in my three hives more than once last Jan/Feb. Not one succumbed to the cold, not one was a weak cluster coming out of winter and not one resulted in hoards of bees flying out to die.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I think "Getting into the hives" needs a bit of elaborating to be of use. Big difference between popping the cover off and dropping in some top feed, and starting to pull out and manipulate frames or separate boxes. I can technically get into my hives by opening a trap door 10 by 10 inches to view the bees and can pull a tab to open the inner clear plastic and drop in top feed if I choose to. To merely view them I could leave the telscopic cover off for 10 minutes at thirty below and they would only withdraw a bit. The central access hole is insulated separately, not shown in pics below.

I do agree that if you have a tried and proven system and have done your due diligence you likely have little need to be getting into them in the dead of winter.
Roland has the benefit of a system that he claims has been in the making for a hundred and fifty years. while many of us are changing things out every year and making it up as we go. Having pretty uniform genetics one colony to the next, and knowing the weights of my hives going in takes away a lot of the guess work for me.


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## thill (Nov 30, 2020)

When I got my bees in late 2020, they had absolutely no resources and no brood. They were starving, and winter was coming.

A bee friend told me with great urgency to get as much 2:1 syrup into the hives as possible, and pray they made it. So I mixed it up and put it in quart jars with 20 or so holes in the lids. They would suck down a quart in an hour. I did this for several weeks. I couldn't believe how much they drank, but I kept giving it, inside an insulated box on top of the hive. They never stopped taking it completely, even in the dead of winter. They all survived and prospered, and I split them many times. 

I keep about 10 hives average now. Starting in October, I feed 2:1, as much as they will take. Hives with lots of resources will let it sit almost untouched. Hungry hives will slurp it down pretty fast for awhile. So far, I haven't lost a single hive to winter, but I have suffered many swarms.. This year I learned to just split them before it happens, and then sell or gift the nucs.. A good/bad problem to have, but much better than dead bees!


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