# Who stole my honey account?



## sqkcrk

Somehow that doesn't look right. "stole"? "stoled" probably should have been "stole". Is there a correction function for the Thread Title?

Or maybe it should be "Why did I loose my honey account?

I didn't really loose one, I just wanted to discuss something that was brought to my attention this morning. Something that I should already know, but needed reminding of.

If you, like I, sell honey, in other words, have wholesale accounts w/ stores, you are going to have people who think that you stole their account, their outlet. And they are going to hate you for it, no matter how you see it and no matter what you do to alleviate the misconception.

I have never stolen an account. There is only one case in which I ended up w/ a customer because I had a better price. So, I can see how that could be seen as stealing the account, undercutting the other beekeepers price. What should I have done, since the buyer called me and inquired about my prices and ordered honey from me? I didn't know that the other guy sold honey there.

I guess to me you can loose an account, but it can't be stolen from you, because it belongs to the outlet. It is theirs to allow someone to use. I don't own my accounts. So, if I can't keep my customers happy, they will find someone else or someone will find them. It's a matter of time.

When I have replaced someone else, it is usually w/ a higher price anyway. So, I don't see how that is stealing. And unless I am establishing a brand new account w/ someone who has never or doesn't sell Locally Produced Honey I don't horn in on another beekeepers existing account(s). Everyone needs an outlet.

I don't sell just honey. Yet honey is the commondity that I sell. The rest of what I sell is "quality" and "service" and "dependability". 

I provide to my customers, and they in turn to their customers, a quality, and nice looking, jar of honey that is locally produced. My farthest account is 100 miles away. 

The service and dependability are that I keep up w/ my accounts and get product to them when they need it. that being done on a regular schedule, though some what flexible depending on how far I have to go. If one or two stores call for honey I call the rest in that area to maxamize the efficiency.

The dependability is also that I will always have product available all year round.

All of this because someone reminded me that you can't be friends w/ everyone and not everyone who you are friends w/ face to face is friendly when you are not there. Oh, well, life goes on.

Have a nice day.


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## devdog108

*Re: Who stolled my honey account?*

dang theives.....JEEZ SQ..>Come on.... I am only kidding as noone else posted here so I thought i would....but I digress...

Sometimes beating someone's price come's across as theivorie, which in turn is NOT the case. Thats what an open market is. If someone was bidding on your house, who do you sell it to, the guy who offers you 130k or the guy who offers you 140k? Is it stealing? People often forget that price competition often drives the prices of goods and services DOWN. Everyone has a choice as to what they think their commodity is worth. It's up to the individual to sell it at what THEY think it is worth and they need to understand if they are too high, they will be beaten. EVERYTHING is negoitable to some degree, its just that some don't negotiate at all, some do, and some are talented enough to get something at cost. I did on my 2010 truck....dealer cost, literally. Did I steal it or did i know that since Toyotas numbers were down that they needed to sell for numbers sakes to keep the dealerships open. Did i call my buddy and find out EXACTLY what the dealer paid for it and what kind of incentive they got if they met their sales numbers? Is it theifing or homework? I call it paying attention to your enviroment, and in business, you have to know your enviroment. If you cannot make the deal, no hard feelings! Just my $.02 worth which, btw, isn't worth a penny!


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## Chef Isaac

*Re: Who stolled my honey account?*

we think of it like this:

A customer has a choice. No one is pointing a gun to their head and making them do or buy anything. With that said, people..... consumer that is.... fit into different catagories and usually you sell to one... maybe two.... major catagories. 

It really comes down not so much to price (unless you are what we call a Walmart shopper.... NO OFFENSE to anyone who shops there.... it is just a mentality). Some people want cheap. Thats ok to. Those are the people who want foreign honey for cheap. People also are looking for serives... someone to talk to... looking for ideas on how to use the honey.... they are looking for education and looking for an EXPERIANCE. We are looking to give them just that.... a quality positive customer experiance. 

So to say YOU stole an account is BS. The customer had a choice and they choose to go with someone that has better quality, services, etc. 

There is a great book called "When $hit hits the fan". Great read. He talks about sellers getting to laxed and thinking the customers are now theirs. Not the case. 

In the end.... the customer has the final say. 

And one last point... it is key to keep a look out for what other companies (not honey companies) and see what they are doing. A lot of companies are leader in quality and customer service. Some companies are great examples of bad customer service. It is also important to keep a look out on the competitors.... the other honey vendors. Yes, the other beekeepers are my friends and some are pretty close to me but I know what they sell, how they do it, what they do well and what their faults are. 

End of the day.... it is just business!


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## Chef Isaac

*Re: Who stolled my honey account?*

I would add one more thing... something I have experianced in the last 7 years. The customers are used to cheap honey because beekeepers sell it cheap. I dont think beekeepers in general know how to price their honey and figure out what the TRUE cost of their labor is and equipment, etc is. 

just my thoughts.


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## sqkcrk

*Re: Who stolled my honey account?*

All good points devdog and Chef. You pretty much said it like I was trying to.

When one is selling, you have three things that matter, three selling points. Quality, price and service. If someone wants Low Price, then they are going to loose one of the other two. An outlet can't afford to have Low Price and High Quality and High Service. 

Case in point, Walmart. The few times I have shopped Walmart I have hardly ever had any, let alone low quality service. Walmart is Low on all three. Otherwise they wouldn't maintain their business.

Whereas Neiman Marcus is High Quality, High Service and High Price. And they demand that their suppliers follow that model, or then they can't.

So, as honey sellers/marketers, who do you want to be, where do you want to sell your honey, Walmart or Neiman Marcus?


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## sqkcrk

*Re: Who stolled my honey account?*



Chef Isaac said:


> The customers are used to cheap honey because beekeepers sell it cheap. I dont think beekeepers in general know how to price their honey and figure out what the TRUE cost of their labor is and equipment, etc is.


Yes, they are afraid to ask a decent price for their honey because then they will be stuck w/ it. They want to get rid of it. Wrong attitude, imo.

I have tried to figure out what my honey costs me per pound to produce. But I can't tell you. I know what I took in and what expenses I had, but that doesn'treally tell the story, imo.

So I have stopped trying to figure that out. I decided to try to figure out what price to set on my honey to make what I wanted from it. It's a different way of looking at it, I think. So far the result has been good. Even though I lost an account to a grocery chain going bankrupt and then the new owners not returning my calls.

They are my goal. I have to think about how to approach them in a way that they will want my honey in their store and where in their stores that my honey will sell the best. It will take time, but I will prevail. Or the sales in their competitors stores will make up the difference.

I may need some advice on that one.


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## Chef Isaac

*Re: Who stolled my honey account?*

Mark:

We should talk sometime via phone. I can help you in the pricing area. 

This is the point we are at actually. We sell almost all of our honey at the farmers markets, crafts shows and street fairs. We do a small amount of whole sale. We would like to do more but to be frank, I can sell more and make moe profit at the markets. The only thing a store has is pretty much free advertising. The honey is on the shelf and to be honest, once that customer pays for the honey in the store, I am hoping they contact us direct. They will save money buying from us directly and we will make a better profit that way too!  

Wholesale is not the best way to go for our operation. But for some, I can see it. We are not looking to be a walmart brand but I do have some ideas around that school of thought though!  

It's funny to watch beekeepers sell honey at such a low price. They are cutting themselves at the knees. They worry about getting rid of the honey. It's not going bad at all and after a short while, the customer will understand about the higher prices. Lets face it, honey is a limited comodity. You want cheap..... thats ok. You want the best... no problem! 

If Sam Walton could see how Walmart is now, he would be crapping his pants. He was a true beliver in customer service. Now, it is all down hill. 

I just wish beekeepers would come together and be unified about their retail pricing. There is a guy here that sells 5 gallon buckets for $125. We sell our 5 gallon buckets for $300. We make profit out if that. And if we retail that bucket in one pound bottles, we gross $600 per bucket. 

Beekeepers work too hard... especially in this day and age.... to sell the honey so cheap.


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## sqkcrk

*Re: Who stolled my honey account?*

At my prices I feel as though I am towing other beekeepers along, but they still sell cheap.


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## Countryboy

The past tense of to steal is stole. Lose is the present tense, and lost is past tense. Loose is what your shoe strings are when they are untied.

Fair competition helps everyone. It weeds out the poorer performers. The poorer performers try to stay in business by establishing monopolies, price fixing, etc.


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## Swobee

Poor performers also try to prevail by using low prices as a tactic. Then, once they run out of product they have to either tell their customers to go elsewhere or purchase from others, then lose their shirts on the latter. Just such a case happened locally. A fellow was virtually giving his honey away to retailers. When he couldn't fill orders he purchased from others to resell and lost money. Finally, the inveitable occured - he no longer keeps bees because he couldn't afford to. He had no money left over to buy equipment and other items needed. We all have to know what our operating costs are and work from that. My operation is still a fun hobby, but it's grown to the point that it is getting expensive and I'm covering costs. At the end of the fiscal year, it's amazing to calculate just how much cash flows out. No matter how small an operator is, one needs to at least pretend it's an actual business.


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## sqkcrk

That guy must be related to the watermelon salesmen that decided to buy a bigger truck because when they bought melons at $1.00 and sold them in the big city for $1.00 they found they weren't making any money.


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## sqkcrk

Countryboy said:


> The past tense of to steal is stole. Lose is the present tense, and lost is past tense. Loose is what your shoe strings are when they are untied.
> 
> Fair competition helps everyone.


Yes, i think fair competition does help everyone. I believe that it can help get someone like myself a better, more fair price too. And in turn get my competitors a better price then they would have gone for on their own, perhaps.

You never will know how much you could have gotten for something until you get a refusal because the price was too high. And I wouldn't count one or two refusals at an indication of what they market will tolerate.

If you don't ask enuf, you will be leaving money on the table.

Thanks for the English Lesson CB. Sometimes English is like a forgien (sp?) language to me.

Why isn't "lose" pronounced like "Loews"? What w/ the long vowel when followed by an "e" an the end of the word rule? And what is the purpose of the "e" on the end of "loose". Looks like loooose to me, not lus. even though I know you are correct.

So, we are all going to lose our shoes if our laces are loose?

"The rain in Spain is mainly [down the drain]." heh,heh.


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## Chef Isaac

Fair competition is easier said then done. A lot of beekeepers are in the old mind set that honey should still be $5 a quart and thats not the case. They are not staying on top of rising production costs, fuel costs, and costs associated with doing business. It's sad really.


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## devdog108

I laugh at $5.00/quart....Ha Ha Ha. I am sorry but i sell mine for $22/qt and if you want comb, it's $25.00 and I have no probelm selling it for that. Amazingly, my dad just bought sourwood honey(so they say) for $9.00 a qt. He is sending a sample to the lab to see if it is and I'll be my hiney that it's not.

As most of you have said, price competition is a great thing, but, i still refuse to sell it any cheaper. I am not moving in bulk either, but, i work and maintain my bees and if you want my honey, you are going to buy it at my price. I gave the clerk a discount on it, but he also lets my boys sell it at his gas station...LOL.


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## sqkcrk

devdog108 said:


> As most of you have said, price competition is a great thing, but, i still refuse to sell it any cheaper. .


What most beekeepers fail to understand or appreciate is that if you charge more for your honey, you may sell a little less, but you make more. More profit per pound sold. And I find that I sell more when I raise my prices.

I wish more beekeepers would get behind this idea. But they are beekeepers, not honey salespersons, honey marketers. They don't realize that they are selling more than just honey.


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## devdog108

I know that i am. I am selling hard work, local fresh honey, sweat, a tear from a sting that will remain nameless for fear HM will PM me again...LOL. Your right SQ. It PROMOTES beekeeping just as much as making money. For that matter, I let the kids have the money, but they do some of the work too, they decap, they spin, bottle and cap it, but then again, I do this for fun. We will see how big fun gets..LOL, but, i still am not giving it away no matter what. It's me and my bees, thats the product, the customer service and special orders go a LONG way in helping and yes, I do take special orders for comb honey etc.....it's about the profession and the people you meet along the way. It's about good friends, good stings and good stories. Its about having to sit here and make the hives "pretty" so that my wife will let me do what I want. I have been taught so much about the enviroment, bees, creatures and such over the last couple of years that I actually feel blessed. Good times my friend...good times...and i still say my bees miss me......poor girls all alone at the cotton without me.......


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## sqkcrk

woof, woof, devdog understands. Good dog, now get down. Sit, stay. Good dog. sssss Good dog.


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## devdog108

LOL....it's the dog in me. Some people just bring it out...LOL


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## Countryboy

_Why isn't "lose" pronounced like "Loews"?_

Lose comes from the Proto-Indo-European base _leu-_ "to loosen, divide, cut apart, untie, separate".

_What w/ the long vowel when followed by an "e" an the end of the word rule? And what is the purpose of the "e" on the end of "loose". Looks like loooose to me, not lus. _

Loose comes from the Old Norse lauss.

A male is a gander, but a female is a goose (not a goes).
It's a moose, and not a mose.
You tie a noose on the rope, and not a nose.

A singular vowel followed by an "e" at the end of a word is _usually_ a long vowel, but double vowels can change the pronunciation.


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## sqkcrk

English, a mongrel language. Or is that mongrle?


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## bigbearomaha

For the most part, I agree with the determination of what you describe as not 'stealing' an account.

However, there are times when less than scrupulous people will indeed go to stores or buyers that have someone already selling there and specifically try to convince they buyer to discontinue doing business with the current n favor of the new guy.

The 'new guy' promises many things, often just about anything to get into the mind of the buyer. be it lower prices, special perks, etc.. and not all offers are honest, just to get in the door.

To me, that is 'stealing' and yes it does happen. There's nothing 'fair trade' about what the new guy is trying to do.

in what you describe sqk, the customer is out 'window shopping' so to speak or comparison shopping and decides based on the honest info you give him or her compared to the info they have on their current supplier, that is not stealing. As you and others have said before, it's not just honey being sold, but the relationship you have with the seller.

You might have great prices, but if you're an...equivalent to a mule...your low prices might still not get you or keep you 'the deal'. in your case, you have sometimes higher prices, but you might be easy on the eyes or just a good bs'er and say what you mean and mean what you say.

Often enough, you will get the business because a lot of folks do care about those 'outside' issues.

I do believe there is such a thing as stealing though in this arena, just in very specific circumstances.

Big Bear


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## Chef Isaac

Big:

Big Says: "However, there are times when less than scrupulous people will indeed go to stores or buyers that have someone already selling there and specifically try to convince they buyer to discontinue doing business with the current n favor of the new guy."

There is a fine line as far as people undercutting with prices versus people offering things that the others cant offer. For example.... it does suck if someone can the store honey for $1 cheaper. However if a person came to me, as a buyer, and said.... buy our honey because we can do this for you and do that for you.... to me... I might go with the new guy. 

As business people, we cant become unaware of what others are doing and offering. We need to be on our game. It would be foolish of us to sit back and say "well, we sell to this store... money in the bank". What people fail to understand is that the customer still has a choice. They can choose someone else. If you have secured an account, you have to be just on top of your game as you were when you got that account. 

Being ignorant is a key to closing your doors for good. Gotta stay on top of what YOU are doing, what other beekeepers are doing and what others in other industries are doing. 

Let me give you an example that just happened to us. We applied to do a market in Seattle early this spring and the market manager said no and told us there was another beekeeper there. That was great. I love to see other beekeepers in action. So I got a call two weeks ago from the market manager asking us to please come and do that market. I asked why and she said because the honey honey vendor flaked out a few times (and market managers HATE that!). So we said yes. We went there.. made $600 and went home. I got a nasty email from the beekeeper, who was a friend of mine, tellimg me he felt betrayed. I understood why he felt that way but I had no idea that he was doing that market and to be frank, we were ready when he wasent. We rarely...RARELY miss a market because of just that. We want a good solid name and I want market managers to want US!!!! 

At the end of the day.... it's just business. If you are there just to sell, then you won't do well. If you are there to market, drive the retail sales, and do the best you can, you will do great. 

Just my opinion.


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## bigbearomaha

That's fine. I just happen to disagree with your opinion to a degree.

I wasn't talking about just undercutting a price. I was talking about deliberately offering things be it price and or services that the new guy has no intention of honoring in the long run, just to get in the door.

kinda like most of our politicians.

Say one thing that sounds great to get in and then the real deal comes along. 

It's not about better business, it's about someone chumping both a customer who only cares about a nickel obviously and someone who was trying to provide a quality product and experience.

Maybe we only have those kind of pondscum here in the midwest, but I find that kind of business ethic unacceptable and I do not figure it to be 'business as usual'. It makes all of us look bad.

You are right. If I am selling a product, like honey and I drop in to a store that might have honey on the shelves already, I might drop a price sheet off for the buying manager or try to chat him up to see if he will carry mine as well or if nothing else, give him the info and let him make his own decisions. Nothing wrong with that.

If I go in and tell the manager that my product is as good or better than the others and I can offer him prices that are drastically below the others because in reality, the product is cut with corn syrup and I don't have the ethics to be truthful about that. That IS stealing form every other honey producer on the shelf. at least, that's the way I look at it.


If you don't have those kind of freakshows who will do anything for a buck and "to heck with an honest deal" kind of losers around your parts, your better off for it.

I know those kind of scum are around areas like the one I am in and I call them thieves, liars and worse.


Or, to put it another way. it might be all business. But there is good business and there is bad business. Bad business makes all of us look bad.


Big Bear


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## devdog108

I htink you two are talking two different languages.....but i spaek mi oun doun hear n da sooouth. Bear and Chef, you both raise valid points, although they are quite different in nature. Bear is talking about being dishonest and Chef is talking competativeness...imho.


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## Chef Isaac

I think there is a fine line between those. For example someone can start off honest in hopes to be competitive and then after a while they might turn dishonest in hopes to get the account. 

Lets just say we are both right! 

Funny thing happened just 20 minutes ago. I got a call from a lady who owns a fruit shop. Said her honey vendor couldnt supply her honey. She said she tasted ours and loved it. Sent her over a price sheet and she freaked out. Last beekeeper sold it to her for 5 dollars a pound. No wonder her old supplier cant sell to her anymore... SHE IS CLOSED DOWN. 

So all in all... i didnt get that account but thats ok. Good thing about honey is that it doesnt go bad. Plus I can get more retail for it. Funny thing is that her fruit stand is right next to a farmers market I do and I get $10 a pound for it and she wants to only sell her honey at $7 a pound. 

I dont understand people sometimes!


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## sqkcrk

So Chef, are you going to go next door and show her how well it sells at your stand and convince her to take you on as a supplier?

I imagine that you already do this, but for those who don't, I tell potential customers that they will not loose anything except shelf space for a period of time if they buy my honey. "If you buy my honey and it doesn't sell fast enuf for you I will come back and buy it back from you at the price that you paid for it. I don't do commissions." Even if they think it is too high priced, what have they lost? especially if they don't have honey at their stand or on their shelf. Local honey at that.

Funny thing happened yesterday, I hope you don't mind PB. A friend called to talk about honey prices and stuff. It turns out that a guy who I have sold honey to for years, delivered directly to his door at a price lower than what most of my customers were paying wholesale for, had corresponded w/ her, looking for someone to supply him honey for home use.

The last tote of honey, I told him that the price had gone up. He was angry, since I had raised the price just 6 months earlier. The last tote he would buy from me. There are some guys 10 miles away from him who produce and sell honey from their front yards, but he is looking to buy from someone who is over 200 miles away.

I wonder if he will call me after he hears PB's price. I hope so. My prices have gone up again.


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## devdog108

I do that for everything. Traded a boat not too long ago for a Polaris 4wheeler. She threw in some cash to sweeten the pot. Next day, sunday afternoon, she calls and is stranded in the middle of the lake. I told her to bring it back. She said talk to my uncle. When i explained that it sounded just like the starter, he goes, OH, tell her ill be back in a few and sure enough it was the starter. (they were being towed to the dock) She wouldn't even let me pay for it even though itried. I explained that nothing is permenant with me except the fact of my last name and that I married my best friend and a yankee(that was just for you mark, Shes from buffalo....lol). Heck, even Mary Kay Cosmetics will buy your stuff back from you if you decide that being a consultant isn't for you. They buy it back at 90% though, not the full 100, but even still. It's the "What do you have to lose" factor.....and it works.



Called her Monday, she was happy as can be. Buying it back at the price they paid makes them out nothing. ZERO ZIP NADA.


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## bigbearomaha

> "If you buy my honey and it doesn't sell fast enuf for you I will come back and buy it back from you at the price that you paid for it. I don't do commissions."


 I make that same offer as well. as already said, how can they lose?

Big Bear


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## sqkcrk

They can't. And when they see how well it sells, they're hooked.


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## oldenglish

When you go to farmers markets you will find several vendors selling flowers, many vendors selling the same in season fruit and vegtables and usually a few vendors selling baked good and jewlery. Why do beekeepers feel they should be the only one selling honey at the market ?


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## devdog108

I don't think anyone here has mentioned that...its in the store that everyone is referring too...


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## bigbearomaha

I don't think that way. If a market will hold more than one honey seller, let them in. 

I just am not thrilled with people being dishonest about their price, product and service. It makes all of us look bad.

That's my thing.

Big Bear


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## Chef Isaac

I never thought about telling them that I would buy it back if it didnt sell. i would think that there might be a liability there since the honey was not in your hands for a period of time. 

usually when a place wont carry the honey... usually do to our prices since we dont go low on whole sale..... I tell them to let me put it in there establishment under consignment and I sell it a few bucks more then what I do at the markets. Then they get a buck or two and I get the rest! Simple as that!  Then they see my way and buy it. 

I am still not convinced that customers..... and retailers.... understand the true work it takes to harvest honey. It amazes me when stores tell me that our prices are too expensive. But to be honest, that is fine. I love LOVE to do my own marketing and sell directly to the customer. The reason why is that I get to know them, their family and why they use the honey. It's great. Plus I get more per pound that way. Whole sales doesnt mean crap to me really. I justify it because it is basically free advertising and my idea is to get the customer to buy direct from me anyways after a period of time. Plus the whole sale accounts can help you pull through the slow times of the year. 

We have a saying that we go buy "dont focus on the sales today.... plant the seed for tomorrow". I train the market staff to focus on planting a positive seed for tomorrows sale. They cant be in it to make a quick buck that way. We want to create an experiance for the customer. We have found that education is the key to a sale. I really have a love and passion for marketing. I love to study the psylogical aspect of consumerism. 

Dave: To be honest, I really dont like markets with two honey vendors because in the past, the other vendor gets scared and lowers their price and it screws us both. I usually think twice about going to an event that has another honey vendor and if I do go, I research like crazy to learn what the other honey vendor sells. Then I look at the sales team and send the best person that will rock that event. We give them good signage and they usually do great. But to be honest, it is such a small community here that I prefer not to intrude on other sales at the market. Just a personal feeling I have. Dont get me wrong, I love competition but I also know what is best for me and my sales team. My job is to be able to help the sales team make money for themselves too so I need to try to put them an in ideal situation.


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## Chef Isaac

I do have a few questions to ask this group:

1) how do you handle crystlization of the varietal honeys when you sell it to the store? 

2) do you market the honey for that store? Do you offer them a marketing package like signage? 

Funny followup to the lady who wouldnt order through us because of our "high" prices. She called me back yesterday evening and wants 8 cases. lol


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## bigbearomaha

I put directions for re-liquidifying honey on the label.

the only marketing is the label.

Also, in regard to liability on honey for buyback, if you are concerned over safety, you can use the heat shrink bands that fit over the cap then you only buy back those jars that have band intact, showing jar never been opened.

I have been in farmers markets with more than one honey seller. I don't care what price they sell their honey, be it more than mine or less. If people want to know why my honey has the price that it does, I will gladly inform them and usually, I be sold out by the end of the market. regardless of others prices.


Big Bear


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## sqkcrk

I've taken back crystalizzed honey.
I do provide signs.

I have signs all over my van. Maybe too many. Time will tell. I have thought about setting out signs in some of my more prominent yards, like "Squeak Creek Honey Under Production", under that "Available at Kingston's Roadside Stand Around the Corner" at one yard. Highlighting other markets at other apiaries. But I don't yet know how big the signs would have to be so someone driving by could read them, nor how much they would cost. Thinking about it.

I have also thought about a full page or half page ad in the local Penny Saver highlighting Squeak Creek Local Honey and Where to find it. Listing stores by which town they are in.


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## Chef Isaac

Do you make the signs yourself? If not, what is the cost per sign? Color or black and white? 

We thought about offering a marketing package. Signage, pictures, possibly a little honey stand for the store. This wouldnt be free. I might do some signs though. I could have the girls do it as they are pretty all artistic. 

I would skip the ad in the paper. Not worth it at all. I tried a couple of years ago but it really didnt do anything for me. But I am in a big area here so depending on where you live, it might help you out. 

For us, the ability to have a solid web site is key. We put A LOT of time and energy into our web site and it has paid off.


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## sqkcrk

Chef Isaac said:


> Do you make the signs yourself? If not, what is the cost per sign? Color or black and white?
> 
> For us, the ability to have a solid web site is key. We put A LOT of time and energy into our web site and it has paid off.


My signs are of three types. There is the roughly 8x10 size that fits in the holders that most grocerey stores have. Then I have a horizontal sign about 4 ft long and a vertical sign the same length, both about 8" wide. They are all lamenated.

The guy who produces most of my labels for me does them for me. I forget what they cost. But it isn't alot.

The graphics are mostly from my 5lb honey jar label, produced by a friend of mine 18 years ago. And then the wordage is something we came up w/. "Natural North Country Sweetness" Was an idea. But we decided not to use it. "Natural North Country Honey from Squeak Creek Apiaries", "Local Honey from Squeak Creek Apiaries, Sold Here", and a couple more.

Web site. That's on my list to get totally under my control. I'm probably going to have to buy it from web.com. Or shut it down for a period of time until they decide that no one else wants it.

What about Facebook and other social networks? Do I really want to get into shipping Fedex, UPS or USPS? If so, I see more plastic in my future.


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## Chef Isaac

Mark:

We do mostly plastic for the shipping with the exception of our creamed honeys and our cold infusions. Go to a packer and get buble wrap. I bought a big big big roll for pretty cheap. It will last me a life time. Plus to be honest, wrapping the glass in a lot of bubble wrap is key. I have tried everything from newspaper to peanuts. Not work it. Go with bubble wrap. 

On the web site, I give the customer options. I tell them they can have it bottled in glass or plastic however with glass, I do not guarantee anything. I am still tweaking how to say it nicely. lol! Plastic is the way to go for shipping. 

I now the frusterations of shipping. I totally solved the issue this year though. I got a great scale (when you are ready, let me know and I have a source for you) and I got a USPS account (free). I weight the package, go online, print a shipping label, stick it on, pay for it, and I drop it off at the post office. No waiting in line. Simple. Next year, I will have the post office jsut come and pick it up. 

As for boxes, go with Priority boxes. They are free and the post office will ship them to you. I pick them up at the post office when I see them. As for other odd shaped boxes, find a wholesaler. Cheaper that way. 

And ship everything priority mail. Cheap and wonderful. I used to fight it but now I love it. I am in love!  

Feacebook we just launched last week: 

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/...-Farm/138486442845061?ref=ts&__a=8&ajaxpipe=1 (I hope the link worked)

It will take me some time to market it but I will work on it. Twitter should be up soon. 

Have you seen our newsletter? Take a look here: http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs059/1102637029445/archive/1103446278949.html

Past newsletters here: http://sweetascanbeehoneyfarm.com/buzzin-newsletter/

When you are ready for that part.... call me and I will give you some great sources and books. They helped a lot. I love the newsletter. Yes... it takes work but nothing is more gratifing to get orders from one simple click. 

Web site.... when you are ready for that.... call me. I have a great guy who does quality work. 

For shipping, just offer USPS unless the customer wants UPS. 

Do you give the store your signs? Do you charge for them? Do you have any pictures of the signs?


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## Chef Isaac

...and mark.... this is a great topic. One thing I love is to tal kabout marketing. Share ideas and get ideas. I love it. We don't talk about stuff like this much here.


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## sqkcrk

Well, we certainly can, as we are. Great exchange of ideas. baby steps. maybe I will catch up w/ you eventually.

I have been shipping cases of 5 lb jars of honey to manhattan, NYC,NY. I have been using an empty box that caps came in. I line it w/ styrofoam insulation and partition between each jar w/ same and cover the lid w/ same. The last box, which was the 4th box in the last six months, arrived at the address w/ two broken jars. I'll try the bubble wrap the next time.

Yes, priority mail w/ insurance. UPS standards require being able to drop the box at least 3 feet and have 75lbs dropped on it. And I think they test these limits every time. The three times I used UPS to ship to a customer in Queens they broke the jars before they even got to the city and then the next case they delivered to the guys garage broken andthe third made it. They've stopped ordering from me.

I give them the signs.

Wow, that newsletter is quite a production. very nice.

p.s.  we probably aught to keep a low profile. the big guys will probably think that we are packers and not beekeepers. and packers aren't really admired, ya know.


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## Chef Isaac

if I was a packer I would make more money and have to work less. 5 out of 7 nights I sleep on the couch as my wife is pissed that I got home too late and I smell like bee smoke. 

I would switch to the 5 pound plastic jugs. Tape the lids up tight and there ya go.


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## rweakley

I just got my first account :applause: . I went into the local health food store too look around (ok so I was hoping to sell them honey), started looking at their aromatherapy section and asked her "Do you have any lemongrass oil?"  she replies oh yes here it is, superior quality, yada yada. I say "I'm sure it will be fine it's just for my honey bees" She says You've got bees do you sell honey we lost our last supplier all his hives died.  If all sales went this way I'd be sold out all the time.


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## sqkcrk

rweakley said:


> If all sales went this way I'd be sold out all the time.


Manage your honet supply or you will be out of stock and then you will lose your account to the next guy who has honey. pace yourself and think ahead.


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## Grant

*Re: Who stolled my honey account?*



Chef Isaac said:


> There is a great book called "When $hit hits the fan". Great read. He talks about sellers getting to laxed and thinking the customers are now theirs. Not the case.!


I tried to "google" this book from Amazon.com

There are several titles. Who is the author?

Thanks,

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Deeptime

I have yet to sell my first pound of honey, but I've been a big gardener for decades. I have observed the hobbiest just kills the sideliners as the hobbiest aren't profit motivated, they just want to make enough that their hobby stays under their spouses radar. In the mean time the sideliners/small operators get killed competing with "NFP" hobbiests.:ws (always wantred to use that icon..;-) )


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## Grant

I've helped a lot of these "NFP" hobbyists get started. They tweak my insecurities as they are potential competition to my sideliner operation.

But in the short run, their hives swarm and don't produce any honey. Their bees die and they're buying nucs and complaining how much this hobby costs. They get stung a few times and they don't want to work their hives, then the mites kill off the bees. Then they're storing their hives in the garage so they can get a fresh start next year. Then the wax moths move in and they pass their hive bodies on to the next "NFP" hobbyist.

I've also worked very, very hard at being the leading novelty in our community. When people think bees, they think of me. I'm glad to help someone get started, but most of these "NFP" hobbyists are short-term beekeepers.

Grant
Jackson, MO http://maxhoney.homestead.com


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## Deeptime

OK, I appreciate the profile a "High-Odds-A -Short-Termer". As a 2nd year hobbiest, some of them fit and most I've avoided. But I appreciate the insight of vet, as it really helps point out the potholes not listed in "the books/youtube".inch:


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## berkshire bee

If your coming in as a hobbiest, and get some surplus honey that you decide to sell, check out local prices, and don't try to undercut them because your just trying to "help pay for your hobby" You'll be doing yourself and fellow beekeepers a disservice. For example, say you have 50 lbs of honey and sell it for $4 a lb when the other guys are getting $6. Yeah, you'll sell out easily, but what if you get a little more serious next year and have 500 lbs to sell. Now you think a little more about expenses and time involved. You'll have to raise your price 50% to get the going rate. I've seen the same thing happen when I used to make stuff for craft fairs. Some people don't mind sitting home working for 25 cents an hour, but it sure hurts the guy or girl trying to make a living at it. I know you could argue about free market and all that, but don't sell yourself short.


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## bigbearomaha

the free market isn't an argument. people are free to charge what they will, people are free to pay what they will. 

To suggest that certain groups of people agree on a price or even a range of prices is not only un ethical, but illegal.

(the suggestion isn't illegal, but the actually doing it is)

to bee honest, I think I have seen prices listed by folks that I think are way too high. 

I instead suggest that people look at your local market and see what the averages are, figure out your total costs and then settle on what you think is a fair, reasonable price. Don't let anyone push you into something you don't want to do.

First and foremost you need to consider your expenses and desired profit margin when selling anything. bee it honey or horseshoes. 

the guy down the block can sell for $20/pint and the guy after that for $2/pint. That's their business.

Maybe when all is said and done, I might sell a pint for $8.00. Who knows. whatever price I sell for, if it's the best price I feel I can sell for. 

Big Bear


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## sqkcrk

One needs to decide if they A. just want to get rid of their honey or B. want to act like they are in business. Being in business means trying to make profit.

So, in part, I don't care a whole lot what others are charging for their product. I try to figure out what it costs me to produce, package and distribute my product and price it accordingly. I'm going to miss some sales, but I'm not Beekeeper to the World. 

My product appeals to those willing to pay the price for it, for whatever reason they have. And my honey can be on the shelf right next to something less expensive and it will sell. Maybe not as fast at times, but I am in this for the long run. Not a quick sale. I am in the business of building a market for my product. And, while doing so, I hope I am bringing the price of honey up.

I know someone who sells honey for $16.00 per quart at a Farmers Mkt. In the same Mkt is someone who sells theirs for much less, less than half that price I believe. They both sell honey. They both make sales. Tell me now, which one is making more profit?

Are you selling more than just honey or what? Decide and price accordingly. have fun.


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## bigbearomaha

> They both sell honey. They both make sales. Tell me now, which one is making more profit?


One might think they can tell by the sale price, bu the truth is, without knowing the expenses they have, it's impossible to know how much they are profiting.

the guy with the lower price might have a sweetheart deal to get bottling supplies for dang near free. If he does, he can lower his price accordingly and still make the money he wants to make on each jar.

This is why I don't base my prices on anything but my own evaluations and what the local market will bear not other honey sellers. The people around will let you know.

Big Bear


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## sqkcrk

Okay, let's say everything being equal, which one will make more profit? My point is, that even if seller A., w/ the higher priced honey, sells less honey than Seller B., seller A will make more profit. Tho I am sure somebody will disagree. You can price yourself out of a mkt.


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## bigbearomaha

ok, pretend all things are equal.say they have what, 100 pints of honey to sell. They guy with the higher price will indeed make more in profit. it will likely take him longer to realize it as it will probably move slower.

When a person actually sees the money can be big part of how they use that money to be more productive and operate more profitably.

The guy with a lower price might see lower total profit, but he will likely see it all more quickly, enabling him to use that money to invest in resources or pay bills that are due now thereby keeping him active and productive sooner.

If I have to wait longer to realize my profit, but that profit is needed sooner to keep activity for the current season going, which I consider to be profitability. I may as well not have that profit if it cannot work for me when I need it to.

lot's of things that go into the equation to determine one's profit and their profitability.

Big Bear


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## Duboisi

I think it depends very much on the amount of honey that are to be sold. A big operator may want to sell cheaper than a small one. The correct price as I see it, would be one where you end up having almost no honey left just before the first harvest.

It may be smarter to sell some of the honey to a packer and have a higher markup at local sales, rather than lowering the local price.

Selling to consumers involves more work, so the price has to cover the time and materials spent on packing/marketing/delivering/stands etc.


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## rochrunner

Sorry if this was brought up in an earlier post, but I'm taking a cue from a local producer and going with fancier containers and up-charging on that, rather than worrying about price per weight unit (although that certainly has to be taken into consideration). This person is putting his honey into "fancy" containers and charging a premium for it--e.g. $6.95 for an eight ounce Murth jar. He also does a nice job with his labels, using a different one for the type of honey it is (e.g. "Wild Flower") and then tells a little touching story about how it is a family owned operation--like how his kids are involved with it. I suppose you could call it "yuppie" marketing--whatever it is, it seems to be working. He sells it in higher-end specialty food shops and gift stores.


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## Deeptime

Muth Jars seem all the rage. I suspect the repeat customer will be limited unless they are for gifts. Still if it help move honey at a premium price, "that is a good thing". Yes, I'm going to do some MJ's for the Thanksgiving traffic.


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## rochrunner

Good luck finding any--seems like they have disappeared from the face of the earth!


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## mxr618

This thread is fantastic! I've learned a lot from all of you so for that, many thanks.

I got about 120 pounds of honey this year, my third. The first year's top bar hive experiment sucked and my three hives in 2009 knew I lived in Atlanta and not Chicago so they gave me no honey at all. 

This year I broke through. I will be expanding up past my seven hives (hopefully into the 20 range) and taking my honeybee education from there.

Of my 120 pounds, fifty are spoken for as bribes to neighbors :shhhh: and gifts to those who I judicially deem worthy. The rest I was going to sell...and that's where the trouble starts.

I'm already oversold. My mother in law mentioned to the lady pouring wine samplers at Trader Joe's that their bread would go well with MXR's honey. The wine pourer passes on her name and address so I can turn her into a regular client. She will pass my info around TJ's because all the store staff are going to want to buy some. Friends find me on Facebook and want to buy for their families....and on it goes.

I can blow mine out at a premium in 1/2 pint, pint, and quart jars. My honey is raw and contains no pesticides, treatments, chemicals, or paint inside the hive. It's organic without me applying for the "Organic" process.

Being oversold and seeing the opportunity to sell more honey, I'm looking to buy raw honey from other beekeepers in my neck of the woods to resell it. I guess I charge what I can get for it but it sure would be handy to know where to start the negotiations for Raw, Organic honey.

I'll be staying away from farm stands and all of that but going direct. If I trip across a few stores looking for honey, I'll see if they are worth the effort.

Thanks for all your help and knowledge!


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## giant pumpkin peep

You cant call your honey organic. You dont know if the bees visited flower that where sprayed with something. Bee carful with what you call it.


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## Mike Snodgrass

The bottom line is nobody knows what organic means!!! call it what you want!


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## mxr618

Yeah, I know about calling it 'organic'...and I don't want to bring that hell down on myself.

Still exploring the possibilities.


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## StevenG

To help my customers, and sell my honey, I produce different types of fliers that tell about the bees and honey and so forth. One of them is called "Organic Honey? NO WAY!" I'd love to be set up in the same market as someone selling "organic" honey... guess who'd get the business? And the consumer's trust.
I have a colleague who sells varietal honey, and he goes to lengths to explain to his customer how it comes to be a varietal. His consumers trust him. Seems like once that trust or confidence is lost, it's almost impossible to regain.
Regards,
Steven


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## Mike Snodgrass

The point i was trying to make is that anyone can claim anything and how do you prove them wrong? My bees only collect clover honey and do it only on saturday afternoons!! Prove me wrong!!! As far as Organic, Did you personally go look at those 8000 acres to see there was no pesticides? Hard to prove/disprove anything...and the chinese know it!


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## StevenG

Aw Mike, you gotta train your bees better! I give mine three supers each hive... since I have my bees on pasture in a national forest,two supers are for clover from the pasture, and one super is for wildflower from the bar ditches and elsewhere. Each bee checks in with a supervisor and is directed to the particular super. That's how I can label my varietals. :lpf:

I'm sorry, couldn't resist... but you're right. Our credibility is everything, and we can label/call it whatever we want. But most of us can tell about our honey sources. I do in fact have my bees where indicated, but in two different locations. The bees on 200 acres of clover pasture get their honey from everywhere, but color and taste indicate it is primarily clover. Bees 2 miles away don't get to this particular pasture, and their honey is darker and stronger flavored. I explain it in my labeling and descriptive brochure. 

But this past spring the little darlings messed with me... The "clover" bees brought in dark, strong honey - clover failed there. The "wildflower" bees did such a good job last year pollinating what little clover there was near them, that their honey was mainly clover this year from a pasture by them, and little wildflower. Just the reverse of what I was used to and planned for! :lpf: Ah, ya gotta love the little darlings! So I called everything wildflower. 
Regards,
Steven


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