# Correcting cross comb in TBH



## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

Find the queen and move her out of the way, if you can, or look very carefully at each frame that needs to be corrected, but keep in mind that you will be shaking most of the bees off the comb before fixing them. I like to do as little cutting as possible, so I would not cut them from the bar unless you absolutely have to. Many times you can just cut the section that is not in the right place and then push it back to where it belongs. I use hair clips to attach comb to bars if needed. I think the hardware cloth would be my second choice, but I have no experience with that method, or any of the others. I would work on one comb at a time. I also like to keep one really good comb as my last bar, farthest from the entrance. As they make new, small combs, I move the new combs in front of the last good one, that way the good one keeps moving away from the entrance, and gives them a good comb to start their next ones off of.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys

Correcting comb can be problematic as temperature and colony behavior/size affect any recommendations and the outcome.

It's best to make frequent, small changes rather than major ones. If things get way off course, it's probably best to let the bees salvage the comb and start over.

I've written more about comb corrections here:

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/beekeeping/manage-a-top-bar-hive/comb/


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I can't tell from the photo how bad the cross comb is. Can you shake the bees off the bars back into the hive, then flip the drawn comb around and get a photo? It may not be as bad as you think. Are their comb guides for the bees to follow? Depending on if they are triangular or flat makes a difference in how I fix mine. (I prefer the flat ones so I can smoosh it back on the guide). Then I use painters tape to wrap all the way around the comb and bar. The hardware cloth method didn't work well for me. And I've found that I can't repair comb that is full/heavy with brood or nectar. That's why I am in mine frequently to check on their progress and correct it sooner vs. later. Sometimes you can see it through the window with a flashlight so you don't have to actually pull up each bar. I also like to insert empty bars between two that are already drawn straight. Much less cross comb with that method.


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## jadebees (May 9, 2013)

It's early, this will fix.

All the people that say ,"dont wax your topbars, dont worry about a comb guide" ,have never had to fix this.

If you have wedge comb, consider replacing comb guides, with a 3/4 wide, Narrow! strip, about 1/8" thick. Wax 1 edge heavily, and glue it edgewise, on a flat topbar. When they hang onto the wax edge, they know just what to do.

When bees cannot touch the actual topbar, and must hang from that edge to build comb, they follow the straight line.

Slowly replacing comb, and moving out weird comb will eventually get it straightened up. Take your time, and just keep it separated enogh to work the hive.

I keep Warre hives, and have not had bad comb in years, due to doing this with topbars. Good luck, & be patient. The odd comb can be taken later, if moved to the honey area. It really is harmless, if filled.


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## Atmichaels (Jul 14, 2015)

My bars do have square (waxed) guides but it looks like the combs are being drawn at about a 45 degree angle. I did check through the window pretty frequently but couldn't see the comb through all the bees. No side attachments, so at least I've got that going for me. 

I like the idea of using painters tape. 

I appreciate all of the advice and feedback. I'm sure I'll get this sorted and once I have some straight comb built out I'll be able to move on to whichever new problems I'm causing.

Thank you!


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## lobudget (Mar 8, 2015)

Is your hive level? From the picture it looks as if there is a bit of lean to it.


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## Atmichaels (Jul 14, 2015)

lobudget said:


> Is your hive level? From the picture it looks as if there is a bit of lean to it.


The lean is all in the camera angle. It's level front to back and side to side. I really was trying to do everything right to get them to draw comb according to my wishes.


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## lobudget (Mar 8, 2015)

Ahh, good. I figured I was seeing it wrong. 

First year was exciting and frustrating for me. I think I broke/destroyed 3 combs the first couple of weeks with a top bar. The new comb is just so soft and easily collapses. Once I got 5 or so straight combs and could keep adding in empty bars in between the good ones things progress so much easier.


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## Atmichaels (Jul 14, 2015)

BWrangler said:


> It's best to make frequent, small changes rather than major ones. If things get way off course, it's probably best to let the bees salvage the comb and start over.


So should I aim for correcting just a couple of bars and leave some of the wonky ones for now? I could then make corrections every couple of weeks as needed and hopefully they will use the corrected ones as future guides. The alternative is to mess with everything they've built so far. I'm sure I'll be making some decisions on the fly as I don't know the full extent of the combs just yet. I plan on getting into the hive tomorrow and/or Monday when the weather is right.


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

I like to have really nice and straight brood combs, the wonky ones can be moved towards the back of the hive till a flow. When they get filled with honey and capped, harvest them, seeing how you are going to crush them anyways to get the honey. Might as well crush the wonky ones.
I have separate sized brood and honey bars, in my experience, if I put an empty bar into the brood nest during a flow, they do not draw out the empty bar, and instead they draw out the honey band on the two combs next to the empty. So a few weeks before our main flow I do all my spacing in the honey area behind the brood nest.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I never leave wonky comb, it only gets worse. If you can't cut it off and reattach to a bar, then just put it in a container for wax candles later (and freeze for 48 hrs to kill pest eggs). Is the wonky comb only on the last bar or all throughout the hive? Is the entire hive open to the bees or only about 10 bars and then a division board?


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## Atmichaels (Jul 14, 2015)

ruthiesbees said:


> Is the wonky comb only on the last bar or all throughout the hive? Is the entire hive open to the bees or only about 10 bars and then a division board?


Unfortunately, it looks wonky throughout. A few of the bars don't look too bad and I might be able to just push them into alignment. It is a new package (2 weeks today) so it's not too extensive, maybe across 5-6 bars and they're not fully built across or down. I only gave them 10 bars to start with a follower board. 

I am worried about disturbing the entire hive to fix this. I will have to expose everything they've built. What are the chances they get pissed and decide to move out?


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Atmichaels said:


> Unfortunately, it looks wonky throughout. A few of the bars don't look too bad and I might be able to just push them into alignment. It is a new package (2 weeks today) so it's not too extensive, maybe across 5-6 bars and they're not fully built across or down. I only gave them 10 bars to start with a follower board.
> 
> I am worried about disturbing the entire hive to fix this. I will have to expose everything they've built. What are the chances they get pissed and decide to move out?


So if the bad comb is all through out the number of bars that they built, we should probably talk about an underlying problem. How wide are the bars? Do you have spacers between them? If there is too much space between each comb, the bees will build bridge comb. No matter how much you fix it, they will keep building it back. It's a good idea to be worried about the disturbing a newly hived package, because they might decide to go elsewhere. I have 2 sizes of bars, 1 3/8 and 1 5/8. The wider ones are for the honeycomb, but occasionally they will put brood comb on it. If your bars are wider then 1.5 inches, you might consider trimming them down before you go correcting comb.


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## Atmichaels (Jul 14, 2015)

All my bars are 1 3/8. Not even my own design so I'm not sure what happened. I really do appreciate all of you taking the time to give your advice.


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## Atmichaels (Jul 14, 2015)

So I went in today and there are 6 bars where the comb was built just about perpendicular to the guides. The first bar at the front of the hive (entrance) had a 3-4 inch wide comb perfectly aligned with the ends of the cross combs on either side. I was not prepared for the combs to be that far off so I did nothing. 

Is there any way to get them to draw comb in line with the bars going forward? What about adding bars behind what they've built that have a couple inches of wax foundation ala Mangum? Replacing the empty bars I have with wedge- style bars?


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I much prefer to use the style of bar you are using right now to the wedge style topbars. I think you need to plan on getting in there and making a huge correction to what they are doing. I've only had luck repositioning the comb if it's not too heavy. Once you get them going the right way, the bees should stick with it. Not sure what made them go the other direction to start with since your bars are the correct size and all. For whatever you have to trim, try an band it to an empty bar, even if it's a little piece of comb. Maybe add a piece of queen excluder to the entrance so the queen can't decide to up and leave after you rearrange their house.


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## Atmichaels (Jul 14, 2015)

So after my manipulation they are drawing beautiful comb on the guides.








It's been pretty hot here and they started bearding over the weekend.








Then sometime on Sunday afternoon, they swarmed. I didn't see it happen but when I checked on them in the evening, the bearding had stopped and half the bees were gone. 

Should I go in this afternoon and look for a queen cell?


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

Be sure to find a queen cell - or the hive could develop into a laying worker hive. That is a lot of time to correct, you don't want that... sometimes the bees don't read the books to see how they should do things! and instead leave a hive with no resources to requeen.

If not, be ready to get a queen! Good luck!


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