# Square TBH to install Nuc?



## 1toomanyhobbies (Jul 9, 2010)

Is there anything wrong with making a square TBH so that it can bee seeded with frames from a Lang nuc? To me it seems it would make more sense to make a TBH that could accept frames from deeps.


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## BillFishlore (Jul 8, 2010)

The dimensions of hive boxes aren't arbitrary. A square hive able to take a Lang frame would be quite a bit larger than a Lang box and much larger than a Warre box. Bees could have seriousl problems keeping warm in winter. Also, if you did have top bars the length and depth of Lang frames you might well have trouble with comb breaking when you try to get them out of the boxes.


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## raosmun (Sep 10, 2009)

Check out Michel Bush's site on long/horz. hives. 
I have 2 x 4 foot long langs. built for medium frames. The bees seem to be doing just fine!


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## 1toomanyhobbies (Jul 9, 2010)

Thanks Raosmun for pointing me to Bush's site. It looks like he doesn't see a problem with square TBH's although he has his at a medium depth. I think I would prefer to have one that is the size of a lang deep just so they can be interchangeable. I have seen videos of wild hives with at least that deep of honey comb and can't see why it would be a problem in a TBH.


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

1too,

I'm no expert, but I have two "rectangular" Tanzanian TBH (TTBH.) Started out with them a couple years ago just to try something different. I specifically built them with interior dimensions to fit deep Lang Frames, but you can use medium dimensions if you use medium Langs. It's really handy to have the ability to go back and forth with Lang frames or use commercial nucs. I've had nothing but good luck with them. I highly recommend them. They are easy and inexpensive to build and work with. They winter just as well as my Langs in North-Central New York State. Just takes good husbandry like any hive - good ventilation to avoid moisture problems, good protection from wind, and leave them plenty of honey for feeding through to spring.

Each hive design has it's pros and cons, but building a TTBH eliminates the biggest con of a TBH - interchangeable frames with Langs . I recommend build a TTBH and a Lang and you be the judge . There is wealth of information about them on this and other forums.


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## 1toomanyhobbies (Jul 9, 2010)

Steve10 you just brought a HUGE smile to my face! I had thought it made sense to make it so that it would accept a deep frame but felt like I was going against the grain. I really appreciate you sharing your experience!!


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

Just to give you a better idea of what I'm talking about, here are a few pics of the a new one I made out of some extra 2 x 10's, 2 x 4's, 1/2 inch plywood pieces I had left over from another building project. Hope this gives you some ideas for your own. Great way to use up any scrap lumber you've collected!

Steve

http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr101/Steve10_10/Bees/FinishedTBH010.jpg

http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr101/Steve10_10/Bees/FinishedTBH004.jpg


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## 1toomanyhobbies (Jul 9, 2010)

Very nice Steve. How many bars did you have between the end of the drawn comb and the divider? Also i noticed no screen bottom, is that because you didn't have any on hand or you don't like them?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What is the real point of doing this? Interchangability? Okay. Whatever floats your boat. I just don't see why one style isn't enuf. One or the other. But, perhaps you are enjoying the variety? The variations of hive styles? Is that part of it?

That's something that I haven't gotten into. Though I have known a number of different hives over the years. Skeps for a short period and a 17th century hive that we, my mentor and I, modified to accept modern frames so the State of Virginia would allow it in the museum in which we worked. And then the yard at school in Ohio which had a tbh built from a steel drum split lengthwise.

Jim Thompson of TriCounty Beekeepers, Wooster, OH fame had a number of antique hives in his back yard that were occupied. Some pretty bizarre. One was a set of triangular shaped boxes of some sort that attached to one another and formed a hive. I don't know how it worked.

In Eastern Europe collateral hives or single deep Langstroths are managed by taking away a frame of honey periodically so the hive won't swarm. Works for them.

Continue your beekeeping adventure.


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## 1toomanyhobbies (Jul 9, 2010)

There are several reasons I like a TBH that can use deep frames in. 1) I am just started and can only get a nuc in the form of Lang deep frames 2) I like being able to inspect all my frames without taking complete deeps or supers off the hive 3) It is just dang cool to have an observation window. Yes, yes I can do that on a lang too but being able to look at 20 frames in one window is just cool. 4) I can use my TBH to start a new hive in a Lang or other TBH designed the same way. 5) I can use frames from my TBH to help a week hive that is either a TBH or Lang. 

To me there are a lot of reason for this design. It seems some people really get upset about TBH or making a TBH that can interchange with a Lang and I just don't get it. As long as the bees are happy, why can't they be?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So, it sounds to me like a long Lang would do you well. That's sorta what you are doing anyway, isn't it?


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## 1toomanyhobbies (Jul 9, 2010)

I didn't know there was a long Lang, but yes it does seem very similar. I guess it would be minor differences depending on if you just use a top bar vs full frame. 

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, just doing what seems like a good idea to me.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Go for it hobbies.

There isn't a manufactured Long Lang that I know of. But obviously you can build one. You did build your tbh, didn't you? So, inmstead of building a Lang. type box 16.25" wide, build it 32" wide. That'll hold 20 frames. Aught 2 b enuf, no?


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

1too,

I usually keep 1 or 2 empty top bars between the drawn comb and the divider or follower board.

As far as the screen bottom, I didn't have any when I built my first one. Although I keep checking, I've never had a mite problem so I build them without now.

Steve


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## raosmun (Sep 10, 2009)

Dito; go for it!

My reason(s) for the medium size long Lang. is the weight. Weight is not the issue for the long hive, but is for me with a traditional Lang. set-up. Therefore I am in the process of going to all mediums. 1, one size frame, 2, one size box, 3 my home made extractor will accept 8 medium frames but only 4 deeps. There are many other reasons for the long already mentioned, for me the two biggies are weight and one size frame (with or without foundation) or just a top bar.

I have not tryed this yet. I built some NUCs to medium 5 frame size, but needed them to accept deeps (eggs & brood) so I made a 3" shim, now I have a modified med/deep NUC. I see no reason why I can not take the shim with frames, bees and all and place it on my med. long. After the long hive is established remove the deeps replacing them with mediums the following spring once the bees have moved durring the winter. If it works; another advantage.

Another note: I have been making frames with a wedge on the top, 1" wide frame and use 3/8" shims, that way if supering just remove shims and put on the super.


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## BillFishlore (Jul 8, 2010)

Steve10 said:


> Each hive design has it's pros and cons, but building a TTBH eliminates the biggest con of a TBH - interchangeable frames with Langs . I recommend build a TTBH and a Lang and you be the judge . There is wealth of information about them on this and other forums.


Do you use and re-use foundation or just the frames?


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

Mark,

>_What is the real point of doing this? Interchangability? Okay. Whatever floats your boat. I just don't see why one style isn't enuf. One or the other. But, perhaps you are enjoying the variety? The variations of hive styles? Is that part of it?_

A fun way to try a different inexpensive approach to beekeeping that is a lot easier on my back and that integrates well with my Langs.

Steve


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

Bill,

>_Do you use and re-use foundation or just the frames?_

I've done it all ways. Kind of depends on what I have to work with and the goal. You can mix and match too.

Note: My TBH's have front entrances, not side. The bees tend to keep brood towards the front (except 1st bar is usually honey comb) and honey stores to the rear.
For swarms, top bars or empty frames with wedge turned as a guide works well since swarms are comb making machines.
For Lang Nucs to TBH, install the nuc in the front with a couple empty top bars, empty frames, frames with foundation, or frames with drawn comb then the follower board. Cycle the nuc frames to the rear (or completely remove) as brood hatches keeping a couple empty top bars/frames in between.
For TBH to Langs, just the reverse.
Same basic beekeeping principles except Langs go up and TBH's go back.
Harvesting honey depends on top bar/ frame type.

Hope this helps,
Steve


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## BillFishlore (Jul 8, 2010)

Steve10 said:


> Bill,
> 
> >_Do you use and re-use foundation or just the frames?_
> 
> ...


It sounds interesting. Looked at from the front, your hive must be rectangular (roughly 19" wide if you can hang a Lang frame in it). This means a significant departure from the traditional KTBH, where the cross section is triangular, narrowing to the bottom.

As you know, one of the big reasons for any TBH is that the bees prefer to draw comb in a triangular shape. If you are using a Lang frame without foundation this will leave large gaps toward the bottom of each comb/frame which could be a serious problem in winter. Based on my experiences with Langs, I would think that the wider comb hanging from a Lang top bar with no frame or foundation would be fragile and difficult to work with. Having a full comb break off from its top bar when you are trying to extract or replace it is not really a fun experience. This is one of the reasons Abbe Warre gave for his smaller boxes and I can see what he meant.

If you are using a Lang frame with foundation, you are essentially using a funny-shaped Lang with all the advantages/disadvantages thereof. If you find it easier to manipulate frames in a horizontal (KTBH) layout, that's fine. 

Up here the KTBH is growing in popularity with one-hive beginners but the winter losses so far seem to be very much higher than either Langs or Warres. There is a state-sponsored pilot project in cooperation with our state association to train and equip some 20 beginners with KTBHs and study the results over several years. We'll have to see ...


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

Interesting discussion. I have Kenyan TBHs only and I'm planning on getting some Lang deep nucs. I've been thinking of how I will handle converting these to TBHs and I remembered seeing a video of this conversion here:

http://biobees.com/media.php

Click on the second frame down in the center. 

I guess this is a fairly fast and easy procedure to do if you don't want to build a long rectangular hive box or Tanzanian TBH. This was what I was actually planning on doing when I got my nucs.

Then I thought why not build only ONE (or more - depending on ones future plans) Tanzanian (separate each nuc with follower boards) and let the bees build out onto the frame-less top bars. When they built out enough, you could remove the Lang frames and move each colony - now on the top bars - into separate "triangular" KTBHs. Just make sure the interior widths of your TBHs are those of the Langs - 18". That's how I built all of mine.

Saves a lot of carpentry, if that's an issue. Just a thought.


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## 1toomanyhobbies (Jul 9, 2010)

I pick up my "long lang" tomorrow and can't wait. I am excited to see how all my theorycrafting will compare with my soon to be real life experience. 

I watched the video Stone posted and the only thing I don't like is the one way conversion. Once they have been cropped and drawn out by the bees I don't think they can easily be put back into a Lang if needed. 

I plan to get some video when I pick it up the box. If anyone is interested let me know and Ill post a link to it.


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## BillFishlore (Jul 8, 2010)

Why pay extra for nucs? Package bees are cheaper and I have had just as good luck with them as with nucs. A nuc is just a package of bees one month later. Successful feeding of syrup is what really counts with either method.


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## Stone (Jun 6, 2009)

BillFishlore said:


> Successful feeding of syrup is what really counts with either method.


Some may think so. Others will disagree heartily. A great new book just published - the only one written on the basis of treatment free beekeeping that I know of - "The Complete Idiots Guide to Beekeeping" - writes a good deal about the dangers of feeding sugar or corn syrup: Upsets the microbial balance of the hive because of a difference in the pH balance, and opens the gate to all kinds of pathogens. 

Each beekeeper has to make up his own mind about this but many of us believe in helping the bees get "back to nature" and let them do what they began doing millions of years ago. I decided not to feed my bees and let them survive on their own. I'll take the losses - and believe me I've experienced what that means - but in the long run, I believe it's best for the bees long term survival.


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## BillFishlore (Jul 8, 2010)

No argument from me on that one. If, however, you start with packaged bees or a nuc, you will feed them or lose them. Letting them swarm and catching the swarm is more natural but doesn't make much of a business model. Letting swarms go wild and setting up colonies in the wild would, if done on a large enough scale, rebuild our stock of feral bees, which is now decimated almost to extinction. Allowing feral strains to develop and luring their swarms seems like a good idea, but it will take many years. Winter losses of feral bees are large, at least here in New England. Honey bees aren't native to the New World so there is no natural niche for them to occupy.


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## 1toomanyhobbies (Jul 9, 2010)

Well I picked up my "Long Lang" on Friday and I am very happy with it. I took a video of the hive when I picked it up from the builder, Fred Nicoles. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjP10ToLfeM&feature=channel


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## beebiker (May 5, 2009)

very nice looking hive, it's a lot prettier than the one i put together last year but along the same lines.
i think you'll find that you like this set up a lot as i simply love mine, just getting the extra brood and honey area using this style over a conventional tbh is well worth it. having sloped sides looks cool but square footage is where it's at 
here is mine with the top off and the observation window cover off, note too the screened bottom cover is in the up posision










it wintered well here in nw wyoming and i am about to do my first split here this week.


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## 1toomanyhobbies (Jul 9, 2010)

Cool looking hive Beebiker. I am very excited now that I have transferred the bees over. I am really happy to hear the good experiences you and Steve10 have had with this style.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I built a long deep Langstroth box and put a top bar hive in it. After all the combs went down like a row of dominoes I did a cut out on that one to salvage it and build the medium one. I have not had that problem since.


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## Growing Boy (Jan 28, 2009)

Those are both very nice hives. Love that design 1toomanyhobbies.
I'm leaning that way myself. I need another winter project.


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## 1toomanyhobbies (Jul 9, 2010)

Michael Bush said:


> I built a long deep Langstroth box and put a top bar hive in it. After all the combs went down like a row of dominoes I did a cut out on that one to salvage it and build the medium one. I have not had that problem since.


Thanks for your input Michael. I have decided to use foundationless frames to try to avoid the issues with comb collapsing. I read your article and I am having the bood frames made 1 1/4 and honey 1 3/8.


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## 1toomanyhobbies (Jul 9, 2010)

Growing Boy said:


> Those are both very nice hives. Love that design 1toomanyhobbies.
> I'm leaning that way myself. I need another winter project.


Thanks Growing Boy! I am really happy how the hive turned out. I have been sitting outside each night and watching them through OB window.  I highly recommend making it an OB hive if you don't already have one.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

If you want to go deep, I think you'll be happier with the frames. Plus if you get any wild comb you can just tie it in the frame...


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## 1toomanyhobbies (Jul 9, 2010)

Thanks Michael. The box has already been built as a deep and I do want to continue to use it. I really appreciate your input since I know you have a ton of experience with different hives. I will look for some of the small cell foundation to put in the deeps.


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## Growing Boy (Jan 28, 2009)

So what I'm gleaning from all this is that you can configure a hive any of a few hundred different ways but when it comes down to it, success or failure depends on an understanding of Bee nature, using that understanding to guide your Bee management and just a wee bit of luck.
As I said before I like 1toomanyhobbies design for the sheer versatility of it though I might not build it quite that fancy. It's kinda like the Cadillac Escalade of beehives, but who knows? Right now it seems a long way til next spring.
Oh, Thank you Michael for your Website and your years of experimentation.
Your observations are an invaluable resource.:thumbsup:


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## greenbeek (Apr 19, 2010)

1too ... great thread, great outside the box thinking on hive design!! :applause:

But note, Michael said he thought you would be happier with FRAMES (to support the comb/brood/honey) ... NOT 'foundation' ... not that he necessarily would oppose your use of foundation.

BTW, the website for the guy who built your hive doesn't appear to bee working ... any idea what's up? (specifically interested in his Warre hive pricing.)

Peace,
Joseph


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## 1toomanyhobbies (Jul 9, 2010)

Thanks GreenB! Holy cow I misread Michael's last post and thought he recommended using foundation. THANK YOU for catching that! 

Right now Fred is selling most of his stuff via Ebay. You can find the warre hive here.

http://cgi.ebay.com/WARRE-BEE-HIVE-...tem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item335f270c0a

That is one already made but if you have specific changes you want he can build custom or alter the one already made.


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## Bsweet (Apr 9, 2010)

Hobbies. great plans, great looking hive, on your frame issue I have taken regular land frames and not installed the foundation but rather ran a bead of melted beeswax around the inside of the frame where the foundation would be,my ladies built some very nice comb useing the bead of wax as a guide. I havent had any problems yet, but I'm doing this in lang hive now for comb honey but hope to build a tbh this winter along the same lines you have used for the same reasons as you. Good Luck. Jim


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