# Sorry, lame split question.



## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Just did a completely blind split.

Had some messed up comb and semi testy bees. So I never saw the queen and didn't do a frame by frame.

Had 3 boxes tall and I just went through the top two boxes and pulled two full honey frames that were way out of control and harvested them. Straightened a few others and separated them into two separate boxes, some other frames of honey remained "wonky" and stuck together or to the side of the box. Pulled a single frame from the bottom box and dropped in an empty one there. Mixed up the rest of the frames including some that had swarm cells on them. I think they may have already swarmed as it looked like there was an uncapped queen cell in there as well.

SO... in the end, I GUESS the queen is still in the original but there are probably queen cells down there as well. I put it all in a new hive checkerboarding where I could and just putting empty frames in where I couldn't. Put that hive about 8' away from the old hive.

Checked them after dark and there was still activity in the "new" one. Also smacked it and heard some buzzing in there. Went look this morning and there was cleaning going on, but no foragers returning to that hive (assumed I didn't have many or they all returned to hold hive). I popped the top and there were some bees up there, but I didn't dig deep... I was heading off to work and didn't have smoker or anything.

I'm thinking I could swap places with them and catch some of the returning foragers that are orientated to the old location. Should I do that? Should I do it multiple times?

School me... what did I do wrong and what can I do to fix it? This is my second year and my first attempt at doing splits.

Thanks in advance!


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Well, if you want to do a walkaway split, (meaning let them raise their own new queen), then you need to have eggs/young larvae in _each _split if you don't know where the queen is.

I didn't see the words 'egg' or 'larva' in your post, but that is what they need - or a viable queen cell in each split (if you don't know which half the queen is in).

More here: http://www.bushfarms.com/beessplits.htm#walkaway

The larva need to be (uncapped, of course) and no more than about 3 days old, but if there are eggs present, those will grow into suitable larva.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Yes, I think they were slimming her down... so no eggs or young larva to be found... though I didn't dig into that bottom box.

I THINK I left queen cells in both, can't recall at this moment.


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## Shutrbug (Feb 8, 2015)

I looked in my hive yesterday and did not see the queen or any queen cells. For Alabama I'm told that it will be the last week of March before they usually build those, but I know that's not written in stone of course.

I *did* see evidence of a laying queen, however, and there were drone cells all over. There was plenty of pollen being harvested, and there was both capped and uncapped honey. I didn't see eggs (not sure I could find them if they were there), but there were a lot of larvae in there. I was able to see some drones, which I've never seen before, so I'm learning!

So if I am going to follow the "Typical Split" from the link provided above, I would NEED to find the queen, right? I don't mind buying a queen to add to the second colony, but I also don't mind waiting for the hive to grown their own queen if that's what happens. But what I believe I'm reading is that to help them along and have the best scenario, I need to know which hive has the queen. Is that correct?


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Yeah, IDEALLY if you could find your queen that would be best because then you know what you are giving the queenless hive.

If you can't find her (it is hard when you first start, so don't feel bad), as long as you can find two frames of eggs or very small larva, then you can put one in each hive and they will raise their own queen.


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## wgstarks (Mar 3, 2015)

Shutrbug said:


> But what I believe I'm reading is that to help them along and have the best scenario, I need to know which hive has the queen. Is that correct?


Yes. Regardless of which type of split you use from that link, you will need to know where the queen is. I usually find the frame with the queen first and move it to an empty brood box set on an inverted cover. Just so I know where she is and she's out of the way. I'll add here where I want her after everything else is ready. You don't want to try and add a "bought" queen to a box that already has a queen. They'll probably just kill her and your money was wasted.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Yes. Regardless of which type of split you use from that link, you will need to know where the queen is.

It might be nice to know, but you don't need to know where the queen is if you are going to let them raise their own.


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## Shutrbug (Feb 8, 2015)

I may have to go that route. It may put the bees 4 weeks behind on their work, but they will still make it! If I get less honey this year on that hive then that's ok. Honey can't be a priority until I learn a lot more about the bees and their habits!


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Swapped places with the hives today.

Numbers seemed kind of low on the one I moved and I'm pretty sure there were very few foragers to the new location/hive because they all went to the old one.

Old one was still busting at the seams last night.

Just figured something... given my luck with queens recently, I probably swapped them during a mating flight! LOL


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

You dont _have_ to find the queen to do a split, even if you plan to introduce a new queen to the queenless half, but the process takes a little more time. Start by going thru the boxes, and divvy up brood equally between top and bottom box, then place a queen excluder between them. Now you wait a week. After a week has passed, place the top box on a new bottom board, with a new lid. The next step, go thru the boxes and find which one has fresh young larvae, much easier to find than eggs for those with poor eyes. The box with freshly hatch young larvae, has a queen in it.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Ok, more hanging out on the new hive in the old location now and almost nothing on the original...they are in there, just not busting out.

Should I swap again tomorrow? Give them a day to being in more pollen? Should I keep swapping for a few days? Every other day for a while?

Looking for some direction.


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

First, I haven't swapped hive locations much, so take this with a grain of salt. Also - I'm pretty far removed from your region. If I did , I'd be inclined to leave them alone ( in the same locations) for at least few weeks. I think moving them ( swapping locations) frequently is probably more disruptive than productive. The hive in the new location should develop a foraging force within a few days. Is there a flow going on? If not, I'd consider giving them supplemental frames honey/pollen, or feed syrup/patties.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Tons of pollen going on.

Flow wise, nothing that anyone notates around there. I did have some honey that I cut out to reshape some frames during the split (I'm foundationless and not very diligent), I cut it off onto boards and then put those around the corner on my trailer. 3 days later and they still have not really taken all of the honey out of that little bit of "trash". I'd have thought they would have been covering it in a frenzy.

Not sure what is the deal with that.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Gonna go a head and probably swap them tomorrow.

Again, more bees in old location than new.

Will try to get in there and do an inspection if I can find the time.


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## BadBeeKeeper (Jan 24, 2015)

Gilligan said:


> Again, more bees in *old location* than new.


That's because that's where the foragers know to go back to. They don't care which box is there.


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## Gilligan (May 8, 2013)

Well... update.

Not good.

Went through both boxes yesterday.... no queen, no egg/larvae in either. One was quieter and calmer than the other so maybe a virgin in that one came out of the cell and hasn't fully mated yet (fingers crossed)!

The other one was very runny and kind of pissy. In fact I first went through the "new" one and did it with no veil or anything... as soon as I got to popping the top on the other one I had a few guard bees bumping me and I retreated to the jacket.


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