# Checkerboarding verses Opening the Broodnest



## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Hi Guys,

I'm just getting back into beekeeping after several years and I've recently read a lot about Checkerboarding and Opening the Broodnest to help prevent bees from wanting to swarm and to also help build up larger populations.
Has anyone done any tests or seen scientific studies with a number of hives that compare the two methods?

It would seem that Opening the Broodnest by inserting empty frames requires more bees to stay in the hive to maintain brood temperatures, due to the increase in the volume of the nest area. So may not be useful at lower temperatures.

So what about a combination of both? For example using Checkerboarding in early spring when temperatures are low and Opening the Broodnest in early Summer once temperatures are closer to brood temperature?

Thanks
Matthew Davey


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I think that the only way a brood nest should be opened up is by splitting it in the middle. For example you have two boxes and insert a third box in the middle of the two. 

Moving individual frames like is done with checkerboarding sets a hive back weeks. The brood nest is specifically organized with brood in the center and stores around the fringes. When you change that dynamic bees scramble to reorganize everything back where they need it. This involves moving stores and in some cases they will even discard brood creating a break in the brood cycle. 

It may prevent swarming, but only because the bees are busy undoing the mess their Keeper just created.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

bluegrass said:


> Moving individual frames like is done with checkerboarding sets a hive back weeks. The brood nest is specifically organized with brood in the center


Checkerboarding doesn't involve any manipulations in the brood nest - the checkerboarding is done in the honey supers above the brood nest. It creates *space* where the brood area can expand upwards without separating the nest from overhead *reserve stores*. The theory is that without both of those two elements (space and reserve stores) the brood nest won't expand and the hive will start swarm prep.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Isn't it supposed to be done early in the spring? Who has supers on early enough to make manipulations within the super as described on Butch's site?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

To a certain extent checkerboarding begins the previous year when you reserve resources so that come February (in my area) the hive still has 2 supers full of honey, and you have in reserve another super of drawn comb. Then in February you shuffle in your drawn comb with the first super of honey, and still have a full super of honey on top of the stack. So you end up with (from the bottom) - Brood nest, box of alternate full/empty comb, another box of full/empty comb, full box of honey. It's probably not something your going to be able to do during your first year or two of bee keeping.

Disclosure - I wenta to the seminar, anda watcheda the video - but I've never actually done it.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

I have been at it... 20 years now I guess. I still never keep extra honey on my hives in the winter and definitely don't keep any in reserve. IMO forget "checkerboarding" and just insert a box of drawn comb between the bottom and top brood chamber to expand the broodnest. That way brood stays out of supers because you don't break the honey band that is in the top of the upper brood box and the bees quickly set out filling in the new space in the broodnest with stores and eggs.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

quick drawing to illustrate.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Checkerboarding and Opening the Broodnest are two different methods of accomplishing the same goal, keeping lanes open for the bees to expand the broodnest and not begin to backfill in swarm prep. Checkerboarding should be done well before broodnest expansion begins and is much less intrusive. It keeps the bees moving up and expanding without hitting a solid honey dome. Opening the Broodnest sets up the same configuration but is started later in the spring season about the time you might begin to add honey supers. If you come into late winter/early spring and there is not enough capped honey left to set up Checkerboarding then opening the broodnest and supering will be the way to go. I think that using one or both methods depends on your climate, your set up, and how much honey is left in the colony in late winter. If they have burned through their stores over the winter then you won't have enough to work with to checkerboard and it would be unnecessary because the honey dome is not there to stop their expansion.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I think that (in theory) the "honey dome" - Reserve stores - are part of the swarm prevention/colony expansion strategy. Ed Holcomb who is another highly respected local honey production guru (and great speaker - not a checkerboarding guy though) says this - If you do an early inspection, and the cluster is at the top it's already too late (to prevent swarming and build a big strong hive). Mr. Wright (if I understand correctly) says that lack of reserve stores is one of the factors that causes the colony to start the swarm process instead of expanding the brood nest.

Something that everyone should keep in mind is that this might be a great strategy here in the Mid south where Walt Wright, is from, perhaps not as effective where there is a strong late flow - or some other regional difference. In this area If you aren't ready to capitalize on the spring nectar flow with strong hives by May 1 you almost certainly will not get a honey crop .


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

One's method of approaching this is driven by regional conditions. You need to know where your bees will be in late winter/early spring and what their typical reserves are at that point. In my area the following paragraph from Walt's manuscript in the Recovery chapter is usually where I find my colonies in early spring. But if there is a box of overhead capped honey remaining, then checkboarding is in order.

" In more northerly locations where it takes more honey to sustain the colony through winter, the bees often have brood to the top. If the lower empty is raised, the colony is operating in the recovery mode immediately. All that is required to prevent swarming is to maintain empty comb above the raised empty hive body, so as not to let them fill the space to the top."


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> If they have burned through their stores over the winter then you won't have enough to work with to checkerboard and it would be unnecessary because the honey dome is not there to stop their expansion.


What if they have burn through to the top but have not consumed the stores in doing so? In other words they just went up and there is a lot of honey on the sides or below them. I am a new beek so I don't have a lot of experience to go on but I have heard the bees can do this when there is a lot of honey left on the hive.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Sometimes my bees will do that. In a three medium set up they move from the middle box into the top box and are there through winter. I don't like to mess with their honey on the outside frames at that time of year, they might need it close to the cluster when our temps take a quick dive. If the bottom box is unoccupied it goes above the cluster. If it's empty comb it goes on as is. If it contains capped frames of honey that would be the time to add another box and divide the honey frames between the two, alternating every other frame capped - empty. That keeps them moving up as the season progresses and they expand the brood nest.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

bluegrass said:


> I think that the only way a brood nest should be opened up is by splitting it in the middle. For example you have two boxes and insert a third box in the middle of the two.


First off, that's a nifty drawing, bluegrass. What's the program that allows you to import it into beesource?

And I agree with this idea of splitting the colony. It's a trick that's been around a long time and they used to call it "Demaree"...except with the Demareee manipulations, the frames were sorted with the older brood and open brood in the bottom box, the younger brood in the top box along with the stores, and the queen is put in the lower box. Then the two boxes are separated with the empty box of frames/drawn comb.

Either way, the key to swarm prevention is giving the bees ample room to store incoming nectar (or thin syrup) and giving the queen ample cells to lay eggs. As I continue to keep more and more bees, I like the simplicity of simply interjecting a box in the middle.

Grant
Jackson, MO


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I don't like to mess with their honey on the outside frames at that time of year, they might need it close to the cluster when our temps take a quick dive.


Just so I am clear, what time of year is this?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I agree, that's a great drawing. Makes the words come to life when you have a visual. The bottom line, as Grant mentioned, is to provide plenty of room for storage and brood rearing. There are numerous ways to go about it, some quick and easy, and others more time consuming. Returning to the checkerboarding concept, the diagram illustrates what I think Walt is attempting to eliminate with his method. As you can see in the drawing, adding a box of empty frames in the center of the brood nest will give the queen much more room for brood and would temporarily curb the swarming impulse. But you still have a solid dome of capped honey above the top of the brood nest. With that dome in place the bees will tend to try to store incoming nectar from the dome "downward". You will need to regularly insert a new box in the center of the brood nest and keep pushing the dome up or the bees would start to backfill the brood nest area. With checkerboarding there are alternating lanes of empty comb going all the way up through the dome and into any supers that are added. The theory is that this will prompt the bees to expand the brood nest up and store excess incoming nectar "up" through the fractured dome and to the highest point above the brood nest. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but this is my interpretation of his method after reading his material.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Just so I am clear, what time of year is this?


In my area, I'm looking at mid March. After the Maples are blooming but before Dandelion bloom. In March the brood rearing gets cranked up but we still can get some periods of pretty cold weather.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> If the bottom box is unoccupied it goes above the cluster. If it's empty comb it goes on as is.


If you have no capped honey dome/reserves, and instead just put drawn comb above the brood chamber, do you find that you still get the same result of 8 foot tall stacks, increased bee population, increased honey production and decreased swarming?


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Reversing and moving a box with empty drawn comb above the brood nest at the correct time of year will allow them to expand their brood nest upward. At the same time a super or two should be added so they start to store any excess nectar up and away from the brood nest area. 

The goal in my area is to have the maximum number of bees in the colony at the end of May when the swarming season is winding down and the main flow starts to peak. The boxes are rearranged in mid to late March to allow for rapid unimpeded brood expansion through April and into May. If I can get them into May without swarming things are looking good. So March and April it's key to have a lot of room available for brood rearing and nectar storage.

8 foot stacks? - too much for this old coot. I'll extract before it gets close to that.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> 8 foot stacks? - too much for this old coot. I'll extract before it gets close to that.


Yeah, really, and especially because I run all deeps....I was mostly going by the photos of Walt and various folks that checkerboard. Most folks wonder how to get the extra drawn comb for CBing. I have comb, but I don't usually leave so much capped reserves that I still have deeps full in Spring. I mountain camp. So I'm just wondering if simply adding drawn comb above the brood nest produces the same results as actually CBing with honey and comb alternating, etc....Seems like it would serve the same function.

Now if I can just find the best way to CB a top bar, but that's a different thread........


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> But you still have a solid dome of capped honey above the top of the brood nest. With that dome in place the bees will tend to try to store incoming nectar from the dome "downward". You will need to regularly insert a new box in the center of the brood nest and keep pushing the dome up or the bees would start to backfill the brood nest area.


This is quite contrary to what I have read and was told by older beeks. As long as you have enough space in the brood chamber (defined as two deeps or three mediums) the honey cap will keep the queen from venturing upwards but will not impede the worker bee from storing honey in empty supers above. If you don't have the supers on you will be in trouble.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

The drawing is done in paintbrush, hosted at photobucket and linked here... Nothing special, thanks though. Good to know it has a name.

Here is a link with another good illustration. http://www.k4vb.com/Walt's BIO reduced.htm


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Acebird said:


> This is quite contrary to what I have read and was told by older beeks. As long as you have enough space in the brood chamber (defined as two deeps or three mediums) the honey cap will keep the queen from venturing upwards but will not impede the worker bee from storing honey in empty supers above. If you don't have the supers on you will be in trouble.


Nothing is set in stone. Sometimes broodnests get backfilled and honeybound. Checkerboarding as I have read on the link I just listed above isn't going to work in our area. You should never have that much honey left in the spring to work with, not without keeping supers set aside strictly for this purpose and placing full comb on a hive in the spring is ludicrous and needless work. 

There are easier methods of preventing swarming.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Acebird said:


> As long as you have enough space in the brood chamber (defined as two deeps or three mediums) the honey cap will keep the queen from venturing upwards but will not impede the worker bee from storing honey in empty supers above.


In my experience this is true *after* swarm season has passed. Until then, their #1 priority is to reproduce. That's what they are programmed to do. From Dandelion bloom until the main spring nectar flow their mission is to back fill the brood nest and swarm. During this period if they sense an overhead honey dome they will be preparing to swarm. After this period, if they are not crowded, they abandon swarming goals and switch to honey storage overhead. This is when you can use a dome to contain brood expansion and they start to focus on storing nectar up into the supers. In my region this is about early June.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> There are easier methods of preventing swarming.


I sent for the manuscript but I am all ears.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Thanks for your comments, it does clarify a few things. My purpose though, in starting this thread was to get actual results from those who have tested the two methods.

I would like to see actual results from a single bee yard where several hives were Checkboarded, several hives were had Opening of the Broodnest and another several that just had supers added. Then a table listing which ones swarmed and the honey yield from each and when in the season things were done.

The site bluegrass listed is along those lines, but only two hives were Checkerboarded:
http://www.k4vb.com/Walt%27s%20BIO%20reduced.htm

Also this one where Dennis Murrell said he tried NOT Checkerboarding one year:
http://beenatural.wordpress.com/legacy-beekeeping/checker-boarding/

I did see another site with some results but can't find it at the moment.


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## BeeGhost (May 7, 2011)

ok, heres a question!!

I run two deeps for brood/food and then super with mediums above that. I have limited drawn frames as I go into my second year of bee keeping, maybe a total of 40+ fully drawn deep frames, and a total of 10 fully drawn medium frames. The star thistle flow started about the first/second week of July this year and went through about mid-September. It was really strong through the month of August. Until then, I dont think we have much of a flow going on out here on the flatlands, except maybe bull thistle in the spring. I imagine that they will be growing hardcore (atleast I hope) until star thistle starts producing nectar and at that time could possibly swarm then? 

Before I got bees (last May) we had a swarm come through in Mid April and take up residence in a euc tree. So common sense would tell me to start swarm managment out here about the first part of march??

Now, I will be having a couple hives in the city, where blooms and nectar happen all the time it seems, so that operation will need to be watched carefully I imagine. I will be checking those hives about every two weeks in the spring to make sure they dont get crowded.

I dont know, maybe I am just thinking this swarm prevention thing over to much, and will just try to keep the brood nest open and give them some drawn frames to store nectar in. Im sure I will have a swarm or two happen until I can get enough drawn frames to checker board and such!!


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

With all respect to Wcubed, I agree with another poster that checkboarding is not well adapted to the northern flows.

I disagree, again with respect with most everything Bluegrass stated in post #2. 

We run a single deep brood chamber, and manipulate combs every 12-14 days between the dandelion bloom and Basswood bloom. These main production hives average more production than the couple hives that we have scattered at friends houses that get less attention. 

A wise man wrote:

The goal in my area is to have the maximum number of bees in the colony at the end of May when the swarming season is winding down and the main flow starts to peak.

I agree wholeheartedly with the above statement, with the addition of one month to compensate for our latitude differences. To achieve this goal we manipulate frames every 12-14 days from dandelion to basswood bloom. To test our methods, we invited a fellow local beekeeper to join us this July, and it appeared that the number of bees in our hives was intimidating.

Crazy Roland, 5th genbeekeeper
Linden Apiary, est. 1852


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>we...manipulate combs every 12-14 days...

please elaborate on how you manipulate your combs.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> To test our methods, we invited a fellow local beekeeper to join us this July, and it appeared that the number of bees in our hives was intimidating.


Was it the number of bees in the hives or the number of ticked off bees in the air because you mess with their home so often? A hundred thousand bees in the hive spilling out all over wouldn't phase me in the least but 20, 000 bees in the air zinging by my head and doing the "your going to get it dance" does.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

There where bees in an upper entrance at eye height that was intimidating. They asked, "What do you want me to do to this hive?". Christian replied "Make it bigger!"(more populace).

Square peg wrote:
>we...manipulate combs every 12-14 days...

please elaborate on how you manipulate your combs. 

With skill and care. There is no "20, 000 bees in the air zinging by my head and doing the "your going to get it dance" does. " 

I believe this was all worked out in the 30's or 40's, was his name Seely? Our methods have not changed much since then.

Crazy Roland


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Roland,

I'm interested in what you have to say, because I know you have a lot of experience.

But so far, you're being too cryptic for me to make much out of what you've offered here. 

Adam


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

roland, that was ace's comment about the 20,000 bees. i was just wondering what kind of moves you were making with the frames. i also have brood in single deeps with medium supers above. i try to research seely. thanks.

ps: is ernie von shlagon still on main st?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Sorry about the misrepresented quotes, no offense intended.

Yes, Ernie Von Schledorn is still on "Main street in Menomonee falls" .

I will try to provide more details, but it is not complicated. Make sure the queen has PLENTY of open comb. The difficult part is knowing how much you can spread them out without chilling the brood because the bees cannot cover it. Every round of inspections is different because the bees are increasing in number.

I will try to look for the authorities.

Crazy Roland


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

In answer to the original question: No, there has been no valid comparison of the effects of checkerboarding versus "opening the broodnest." And further, there has been no test of CB vs any other swarm prevention techniques. I tried a test of CB vs hive body reversal, but Mother Nature threw a couple wrinkles in the flow that spring that made the results inconclusive. Short form: The double deeps were reversed early during good field forage, and brood jumped into the upper deep. The CBed team was manipulated later during a dip in field forage and they were dragging their feet in expansion. The lack of field forage continued and the reversed group had about the same population at the start of main flow as the CBed. Honey production ended in a dead heat.

Tried it again the following year. For consistancy, supering was done with new Permacomb. The new plastic had not been treated for acceptance, and neither team would store nectar/honey in the supers. Another botched test. Turned my attention to other things.

The demonstration at the Huntsville club yard is a constant embarrassment for me. It's my system and I did it wrong. No excuses. It's history that can't be changed, and denial doesn't help. The mistake made was putting the empty pollen box medium from the bottom board to just above the brood in the deep brood chamber. The checkerboarded supers should have been placed there and the empty at the top, above the CBed supers. Major blunder. The empty medium above the deep brood chamber stopped expansion into the supers for several weeks. It's a wonder that they didn't swarm from the single deep.

The sketches of the demo debacle show up in two different links above. Those are good sketches of how NOT to do it, and they differ somewhat. When we realized the error and corrected the configuration, we sent Bob an explanation that got garbled somehow. We didn't know Butch also had reported it on his site. Note that in the pic of me between the two hives, the medium box is located next to my shirt sleeves. I don't think either description gets it there.

It is reported that confession is good for the soul. Sorry, Father, I don't feel any better.
Walt


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Thanks Walt. Much appreciated.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Bluegrass, have you being inserting a box of comb in the middle of the broodnest for some time?

Do you have issues with chilled brood?

Is the hive set back compared to hives that don't have that done?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>You should never have that much honey left in the spring to work with

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding of the "when". You would not be checkerboarding in the spring. That would take place in late winter before they have burned through those stores in the early buildup period before the first nectar flow. Now I'm not saying checkerboarding will or wont' work in a particular climate. I have not had the time to spend on resolving my problem which is that the bees are in the top box and I would have to rearrange the whole hive to do it..., I hope to sometime work on figuring out if I can apply it... But Dennis Murrel is certainly in a "Northern" climate and he seems sold on it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> >There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding of the "when". You would not be checkerboarding in the spring. That would take place in late winter before they have burned through those stores in the early buildup period before the first nectar flow.


I am too new at this to consider tearing apart the brood nest in late winter up here. Doing major surgery on the brood nest is something I feel uncomfortable with anyway. So I may never try it. Besides, a bumper honey crop is of no concern to me. My only concern would be swarm prevention and it appears that what technique you use has to be adjusted based on where the bees end up, and what the conditions of the hive is when you first open it up.

With this statement:


> You should never have that much honey left in the spring to work with


It implies what you did in the fall when you put them to bed for the winter is also going to make a difference. So it looks like if either of my hives or both survive the winter I will have another whack and killing them next spring.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

mb,

>I have not had the time to spend on resolving my problem which is that the bees are in the top box and I would have to rearrange the whole hive to do it..., 

if someone were running all mediums, could they rearrange in the fall so as to put all the brood in the bottom and all of the honey on top? i guess that would still mean rearranging, but in the fall instead of late winter.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Matt

I have always expanded brood nest by inserting a box of drawn out comb in the middle of the brood chamber. I only insert one, but I know guys who will insert two or three boxes. They are done one at a time, once one is filled and the brood capped the next one is inserted. I don't start doing it until late May here in the Northeast USA. When you split the brood nest the same amount of bees are covering the same amount of brood. By time the queen has filled the new comb enough new bees have emerged to cover the new brood.

MB: I don't winter with supers on, so it doesn't matter what time of year checkerboarding is done, I will not have the resources to do it. I am working to regressing bees back to wintering on a single box, I use my extra brood boxes on each hive to make splits in the fall. If I have two or three brood boxes on end of August the hive becomes two or three singles.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I can see that working in Danbury CT. but I would be afraid to do that in Upstate NY and Utica is pretty mild compared to most of upstate. A solid ball of bees is warmer then two separate clumps of bees.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Wcubed - I must salute you as one of the best observers of bees. 

There are however some other factors that handicap the checkerboarding methods. One is separation of different floral sourced honey, and the increased potential of intermingling feed and honey. 

The use of more than one deep(or equivalent) for a brood chamber, allows more left over honey or feed from the previous year. Our goal is to have a near empty hive in a deep when dandelions bloom. All honey is collected as the supers are full, keeping the different flavors separate. There is little chance of feed getting into the honey if there is nothing left when dandelions bloom. 

What happens to all of the food, be it feed or honey, that is in the checkboarded hives? Have you colored your feed with food coloring to trace where it goes? If it is fall honey, which is usually strong, does it end up in your early summer honey? 

I am willing to bet that the law on honey will eventually exclude anything that is over 10 percent feed, which is the testing threshold. How certain are you of the final resting place of that what is left in the hive? 

I hope we all try to produce the best product, no matter the method.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> I hope we all try to produce the best product, no matter the method.


Crazy, I figured this one out. Don't feed and only take the honey from the supers not the brood chamber.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>What happens to all of the food, be it feed or honey, that is in the checkboarded hives?

good point roland. i'll let walt speak for himself, but after reading his paper i'd be willing to bet that his bees make enough and he leaves them plenty as to not have to feed in the fall.

as for me, i did feed this fall, and can't be sure there isn't any syrup in the one medium i have over the one deep brood chamber on all my 'big' hives.

based on a tip from walt's paper, i plan on moving those mediums down below the deep. they were already getting some brood in them anyway, but the hope is that there will be a bunch of pollen down there by next winter. then i'll have no worries about the syrup.

luckily i have enough drawn medium comb to put one super on each. no checkerboarding will be needed this season. my goal is leave them enough honey this year and try not to feed syrup.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Rolands question is valid, as is his quest for different sources. When I started with std mngmt, and harvested my alloted 2 super average, we often had what I called "laminated honey." As sources changed during main flow, different colored layers were stored in each cell - both sides of the midrib. Have seen as many as 4 layers. We filled our cut comb jars with Dakota light to show up the laminated honey. Sold better than hotcakes.
Since CB, we don't see laminated honey any more. Each of those different sources fills super or two. And when blended in the tanks, the aggregate color is much lighter. That may be because our major source is white clover toward the end of the flow. With CB, colonies still have strong populations at that time.

About the feed: We do not feed in the spring. By leaving enough honey to have a box of honey to checkerboard, there is no need to feed. But even if we did, it would not be a problem. The colony builds brood volume through the CBed supers, consuming nectar/honey as they grow. Put some sugar water in there makes no difference. I'm sure you know how they expand the brood nest, but there may be some who don't know. They consume a band of feed at the top of the brood and prepare that band of cells for eggs. The increase band is arched like the top of the existing brood and is wider at the top. When the cells are prepared for eggs, they bring Momma up to lay that band in a batch. All the cells for the next expansion band are filled with liquid feed. Since those cells are filled, incoming nectar goes into empty cells at the top of the feed whether it is nectar, honey or sugar water. When CBed, nectar accumulation outruns brood nest expansion by a couple shallow supers here during the swarm prep period. There is no reason to believe that sugar water gets moved up into harvest supers. Surely, you wouldn't be feeding at the same time that the colony is storing nectar overhead.

The whole objective of checkerboarding is to break up the band of capped honey reserve that stops brood nest expansion and starts swarm preps. This encourages broodnest expansion through the reserve, storing nectar above all the way. With a double deep overwinter config. you can get more than the equivalent of three deeps of brood, and outrageous populations.

I do have to sometimes feed in the fall. Monitoring the broodnest backfilling at brood closeout, some seasons don't let them get it done. When it gets to early Nov and they still have substantial brood, we crash feed. Comb feeding provides better access to the syrup and they can move a lot of it in a few mild days. There is no danger that it will get into the capped honey overhead.

Walt


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Acebird said:


> I can see that working in Danbury CT. but I would be afraid to do that in Upstate NY and Utica is pretty mild compared to most of upstate. A solid ball of bees is warmer then two separate clumps of bees.


I am in CT, My bees have been in Northern VT for 19 years. Zone 3.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Acebird said:


> I can see that working in Danbury CT. but I would be afraid to do that in Upstate NY and Utica is pretty mild compared to most of upstate. A solid ball of bees is warmer then two separate clumps of bees.


I am in CT, My bees have been in Northern VT for 19 years. Zone 3.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Wcubed wrote:

There is no reason to believe that sugar water gets moved up into harvest supers.

That is the whole premise that is used in basswood comb honey section production, that nectar store during the queenless period(single deep) is forced into the sections.

Crazy Roland


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## T0ADMAN (Aug 5, 2011)

Crazy, 
I'm new and would love to hear more advice on management from WI based beeks. Is there somewhere I could find more info detailing your methods?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Toadman - to respect the OP, please PM me.

Roland Diehnelt


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Thought I had a handle on the CB thing: two shallows replace the top deep of a two deep system. You then CB the top 2 boxes a month before apples. Now I am hearing mediums below deeps and moving boxes below the deep. The presentation showed putting an empty medium above the deep and a full medium below the deep. The photo of Walt with the two hives showed WR1 appears to be a shallow, deep, two shallows. So does the CB run 3,(d s s) 4,(mdss) or 5 (mdmss) boxes as the minimum? And is there a reverse done to the bottom somewhere in the mix? The tread also made it sound like the procedure was not followed in the presentation so confused. Yeah I hear about how great the manuscript is but I am cheap and waiting for the movie (figure maybe Michael Caine to play Walt). Maybe a Christmas present? I am still working on drawing comb in some shallows so I am not in the game this year.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

minz, for me the take home lessons from the manuscript were more about understanding the life cycle of the colony and their activities coming out of winter and into spring leading up to swarming and beyond, rather than any specific hive configurations.

how many boxes and what sizes can vary with location and the individual beekeeper.

i am adapting my operation to take into account the observations and recommedations made by mr. wright. 

i think you will more than recoup your $10 in swarms prevented and increased honey harvest. more importantly you will gain an understanding of what the bees are up to, and that will guide you in your management decisions.

to the op, mike gilmore said it best in post #8. checkerboarding vs. opening the brood nest is not an either/or question. checkerboarding is done pre-swarm, pre-new wax, pre-main flow and involves honey frames above the broodnest. ulbn, (unlimited brood nest), by opening the brood nest is done after this time, and involves the brood frames. no reason why not to use both methods, which is what i plan to try this year.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

minz:
Like I said those sketches are garbage. Maybe I didn't say it plain enough. FYI, more accurate sketches are free in POV here in beesource. The original article Nectar Management 101 (# 13 down the list) was an early description of the manipulation. That was written before the pollen box was incorporated into full season management. So it just treats checkerboarding. Two articles toward the bottom of the list treat the pollen box.

Ace:
I'm inclined to agree with you, and I realize how dangerous that is. But it is true that opening the broodnest is not for the amateur. Several factors involved.
In the early season, judging colony population strength is difficult. On a flying day when you can open the hive, a major portion of the bees are out foraging. What you see is not the full cluster size.
You need enough population to avoid brood chilling, if you are expanding the nest volume.
As they build population (explode) to the point of being "crowded" they are likely already in the swarm prep period, and commitment to swarm by starting Q cells is less than 3 weeks away. That may sound like plenty of time but the weekender can easily get "weathered out" for two weeks or more in the spring.
A little complicated to expect of the beginner.

bluegrass:
ludicrous?? Strong language. For the record, we have not advocated adding a box of honey in the spring, but we do recommend leaving enough honey on in the fall to have a full box of honey in late winter to checkerboard. Years ago we replaced the upper deep with two shallows (same amount of honey) to provide the flexibility for CB - among other reasons, like reliable wintering in the deep.

Since neither of us has any experience with the other's scheme, neither of us is qualified to critique the other's system. 

Would adding a super of honey in late winter still be ludicrous if you got it back with two additional in the buildup period? Would it still be ludicrous if it had the potential for doubling your over all honey crop for the season?

Walt


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

wcubed said:


> Since neither of us has any experience with the other's scheme, neither of us is qualified to critique the other's system.


:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

wcubed said:


> Would adding a super of honey in late winter still be ludicrous if you got it back with two additional in the buildup period? Would it still be ludicrous if it had the potential for doubling your over all honey crop for the season?
> Walt


Now that is something to consider very carefully. We, should say I because I shouldn't speak for anyone else, are in the habit of leaving on only what is necessary for the colony to "survive" the winter and make it safely to spring. This approach is more like an investment .... sacrifice a little now and get a bigger return later. Kind of like investing in a stock today that has a 75% + chance of doubling or tripling over the winter. There is some risk and immediate cost, but the future gains could be well worth the effort. If you look at it that way then leaving on an extra box of honey doesn't sound so bad. Something to think about.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

No disrespect Walt. I just don't see it working well here in the Northeast. I can't open my hives as early as you can there in TN, So late winter manipulations are not an option. If I leave them in a Deep and two Supers over winter, buy the time weather is warm enough to open the hive the queen will be laying in the top boxes. The earliest I can really open a hive for a full inspection is going to be mid April. I would probably even have snow on the ground at that point. I have had snow storms some years into the first few days of May.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Walt wrote:
I'm inclined to agree with you, and I realize how dangerous that is. But it is true that opening the broodnest is not for the amateur. Several factors involved.
In the early season, judging colony population strength is difficult. On a flying day when you can open the hive, a major portion of the bees are out foraging. What you see is not the full cluster size.
You need enough population to avoid brood chilling, if you are expanding the nest volume.
As they build population (explode) to the point of being "crowded" they are likely already in the swarm prep period, and commitment to swarm by starting Q cells is less than 3 weeks away. That may sound like plenty of time but the weekender can easily get "weathered out" for two weeks or more in the spring.
A little complicated to expect of the beginner.

I agree entirely. You must have a sense of what the hives are capable of.

Bluegrass do not be mislead by his "winter" terminology. Key off the bloom references. 

Although I can comprehend what Walt is doing, regional differences in honey flow patterns may be more confounding than climate differences. We also strive to have an empty hive when the dandelions bloom, because after that, they can forage fro their needs. Leaving a super of honey would have no later benefits, and only get in the way. 

Crazy Roland


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Ed Holcomb says to NEVER let a hive get below 15 pounds of honey - at any time of year, or it will negatively impact brood production, hive population and ultimately honey production. Even months later.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Ed Holcomb says to NEVER let a hive get below 15 pounds of honey .

We have never seen evidence of that. We have seen evidence of an empty hive with nectar incoming , for example a new package on foundation, exploding like crazy.

At the same time, a hive with bees and food, but no incoming nectar, does nothing.

It is the increase in food that seems more important, rather than the level of stores.

Walt - what have you observed. Prove me wrong?

Crazy Roland


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## heaflaw (Feb 26, 2007)

Walt, what size cluster do you have in late winter?


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Maybe Mr Ed has reference to the emergency shortage of stores where the colony stops feeding larval brood. Have seen it a few times, but didn't note the level of honey on hand. The literature says it's about 3 deep frames of honey. Whatever that level is, they don't wait until they run out of capped honey to invoke the emergency measure. May look like they have plenty to the beek, but the colony safety margin has been bridged. All larvae yellow, turn brown and die. When nectar is coming in again, they start brood rearing again. Or, give them a few frames of honey and they restart promptly. 

It's certainly true that sometimes one colony is much busier than others. Or one is dawdling while others are busy. I generally attribute that to the scouting force. Normally the less strong do not have a large number of scouts in the field and may not find the source located by the stronger colonies. You generally do not see this if the source is everywhere in the area.

As to your question about incoming forage stimulating activity/growth - no question about that. If forage is not coming in, they are dragging their feet in the stores conservation mode.

heaflaw:
A typical Feb cluster is about basketball sized, if they had the benefit of backfilling the broodnest at closeout and the pollen box to support Aug build up.

An under-recognized feature of colony fall preps is tailoring population of the right age distribution to be proportional to stores/cavity size. With some help from me they get it right and cluster sizes in late winter are much more uniform. When I tell folks that I don't have winter losses, I get that look that says "and you expect me to believe that??"

Walt


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Walt, no offense implied, you were quite plain that the drawings were not accurate: Let me be more specific and think a bit more as I type. My question was specific to your box configuration since we are of about the same zone. The drawings show three different configurations for a “one step management” and I was wondering if you had standardized to a single configuration (in your zone 7 area). I was building more boxes this weekend (got some cheap 1x8) and was debating cutting some of them down to a shallow for CB method. I have to admit that MB’s theory of “one size does it all” definitely is showing it strong points. Not just building but also in the pyramiding up, sharing frames of brood between hives, making splits. 
My winter manipulation I put all of my brood in the bottom box, honey / empty in the top and fed until the top was full (cold wet late summer). The plan this year is easy (center diagram if they do not eat it all) Do you do deep, deep, shallow shallow (DDSS) and super mediums? Do you replace your second deep with shallows (DSS)? I can do a split after the raspberry flow and move the second deep off. You are trying to get us to think for ourselves but I just want to get a foundation configuration so half of my stock does not fly away every year.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

I have not ever maintained colonies in a cold, long winter area, but I don't believe that the basic colony survival traits change with location. Most of the literature originated in the northeastern tier of states and that perspective distorts the views of southern beeks. My opinions are based on what I see and that strays from what I hear or read. (Standard intro)

Saving of an overhead reserve of capped honey is conspicuous here. A colony overwintered in a deep and shallow here seldom taps the shallow of capped honey overhead through the swarm prep period. All swarm prep activities are accomplished in the deep. A smaller swarm , generated earlier, has about the same chance of survival as a later, larger swarm.

You northern folks who only leave enough honey for wintering are depriving the colony of their reserve. It is a reserve, and you are forcing them to consume it to survive. That causes you to be feeding in the spring. It's interesting that here on these forums, beekeepers will not call it a RESERVE, but that's what it is. (Honey cap, etc.)

Getting a little further from my experience base, it seems that harvesting fall honey would compound the problem. In the fall, the colony is adjusting population to be proportional to stores/cavity size. Suddenly, stores and cavity size take a dive, resulting in over-population. Both good and bad. the oversized population winters better and builds faster, but eats too much. Barring pest and disease, the major cause of northern winter losses is attributed to starvation. I wonder why.

Overpopulation contributes to afterswarms. The bees need to get back to the balance of population in consonance with quarters. We don't generally get afterswarms in Dixie. Again, I wonder why.

Walt


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

wcubed said:


> Barring pest and disease, the major cause of northern winter losses is attributed to starvation. I wonder why.
> 
> Walt


Having thought about this for years I think that the reason is quite simple. Bees have been bred in the south for 50 years with one goal in mind. Pollination. The money in beekeeping in the US is in pollination, the honey crop is a bi-product and less and less of an emphasis has been put on breeding for production of honey. This issue is compounded by the progression of feeding being for emergencies, to it being standard management practice. How many beeks do you know who do not own a syrup pump and feed? People talk all the time about nectar dearths, when the reality is that quite often their bees are just not gathering and storing nectar. Why should they? they will get all the feed they need come winter. The poor gatherers are assisted to live and allowed to breed. 

So along with the loss of good honey production from moderate sized hives, breeding in the south has also led to an inability to winter on small amount of stores. Our bees now need 50 lbs of honey to winter over when the literature shows they should easily winter over on 10 lbs or less. If they needed only 10 lbs of stores they could reach those 10 lbs without breaking cluster. But because they need 50 lbs now days, they have to live in a climate that allows them to break cluster and move, otherwise they starve.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I just finished reading Walt’s book / manuscript and on page 58 if I may:

"*In more northerly locations where it takes more honey to sustain the colony through the winter, the bees often have brood to the top. If the lower empty is raised, the colony is operating in the recovery mode immediately. All that is required to prevent swarming is to maintain empty comb above the raised empty hive body, so as to not let them fill the space to the top.*"
This says to me that checkerboarding may not be that useful in the north, at least for swarm prevention.



minz said:


> I have to admit that MB’s theory of “one size does it all” definitely is showing it strong points.


In another part of the book he makes a claim that the bees do not like to bridge the gap between boxes. With my little experience I have to disagree with this also for my location so I wouldn't give up on all the boxes being the same.

I do follow a lot of Walt's logic but I wonder what he has observed since the last observations which were about 10 years ago. I chuckle at his inability to change the old beeks ways in the book and realized if anything was going to change it would have to be with the newer beeks. That is pretty much the way it is with beekeeping Walt.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

I wouldn't deny that those could be factors. The breeding from survivors gang has demonstrated that you can alter aggregate genetics in just a few generations. But I think it more important to recognize that from the bees perspective, their reserve is NOT surplus. It's an important part of colony survival strategy. The reserve protects them from nectar dropouts and bad weather in the period where they are deliberately skewing population up to support division by the swarm. P.S. I like your tag line.

Walt


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

>Having thought about this for years I think that the reason is quite simple. Bees have been bred in the south for 50 years... 


and thus is the case made by many on the forum for breeding queens from local survivor stock.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

wcubed said:


> I have not ever maintained colonies in a cold, long winter area,
> Walt





Acebird said:


> I just finished reading Walt’s book / manuscript and on page 58 if I may:
> 
> "*In more northerly locations where it takes more honey to sustain the colony through the winter, the bees often have brood to the top. If the lower empty is raised, the colony is operating in the recovery mode immediately. All that is required to prevent swarming is to maintain empty comb above the raised empty hive body, so as to not let them fill the space to the top.*"
> This says to me that checkerboarding may not be that useful in the north, at least for swarm prevention.


Walt
Given your admission quoted above, what is your source of info for the quote from your book, if it isn't based on experience?


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

bluegrass:
Sounds like a "gotcha" and to some extent it is. Studied the effects of CB for several years, and that was a conclusion drawn from observing those effects. Since we were using CB exclusively during that time, we have no evidence that it's true, and it may not be.
Mr. Palmer's approach of adding a box of drawn comb at the top to start overhead nectar storage would seem to add some credibility to the concept.

We are currently updating the contents of the manuscript, and we'll try to more careful in how that subject is treated.

Walt


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Not intended to be a gotcha. I was just curious who you were working with as I don't have the manuscript here to read the footnotes.

My bees move straight to the top box as brood rearing stops and the weather gets cold. I surmise that they do this because the underside of the inner cover is the warmest location in the hive being as it is farthest from the entrance and I place insulation above it.

I tested this theory by placing a colony in a beemax deep with a wood body on top. They stayed clustered in the beemax.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Have you ever left a box of honey on top?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

If you are addressing me: Yes, often the top brood box is full of honey, I have also left mediums of honey on hives because I didn't have anywhere to store them.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Yes, and did they still go to the top? I want to know because my first successful winter they went to the top but they almost starved too. This year I have more then enough honey and I am wondering if they will still go to the top. I also put a chunk of insulation on the top but this season is very mild so there still isn't a good comparison to last year.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Ace

One of the best tools you can have for checking on hives in the winter is a stethoscope. You can listen to all sides of the hive to locate the exact location of the cluster without disturbing the bees and opening the hive in the winter.

I have a Littmann, cost about $100.00 and worth the investment. The cheap ones don't really work well because it is hard to hear much through them.

Yes they still go to the top even with honey in the top box. IMO starvation is rarely the primary cause of winter death... usually secondary to some other issue.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I have one but there is so much background noise I can't get an accurate location. We bought a new 200 dollar one for my wife's daughter because she went from a heart unit to a pulmonary unit and needed a special one. I didn't dare try it out for fear of wrecking it. I will say that thing is like putting on head phones. No background noise what so ever.


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Do you have a lot of traffic near your hives? That could be an issue.

Is you step daughter a nurse? I am also, I work on a stroke unit. The amplified stethoscopes are nice, I would be afraid of messing it up too...don't blame you there.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

wcubed said:


> ...I think it more important to recognize that from the bees perspective, their reserve is NOT surplus. It's an important part of colony survival strategy. The reserve protects them from nectar dropouts and bad weather in the period where they are deliberately skewing population up to support division by the swarm...
> 
> Walt


Reading through this thread, I think this is a very important point, and one worth specific focus.

Many view the honey harvest as taking "surplus"; thinking that the bees make "more than they need". To view the honey as necessary to the bees is a fundamental shift of perspective, and is key to Walt's views as I read them. 

What is happening to the bees' behavior when we remove this "necessary" resource from the hive? In the top bar hive, this harvest also means empty space. In the lang, it means reduced space (as it does if you put a follower board in place in the top bar hive after harvesting.)

How many of us do these manipulations with little thought to what it does to the bees perception of their situation? Do they perceive it at all? And what are the implications if they do?

Adam


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

minz:
We deliberately moved away from double deeps many years ago. Too many reasons to go into here. We shifted to one deep and the rest shallows for flexibility. The brood nest is anchored in the deep by colony preference. The colony expands upward and decreases brood volume downward reliably with this config. Full season brood in the deep. 

The pollen box was incorporated by '98, but we didn't learn until '07 why wintering was improved. CCD where nutrition was a suspect cause, prompted an investigation of when and whys.
Current config. from the top, down in late winter follows:
Shallow of mostly capped honey - To be CBed when forage is available.
Shallow of all capped honey - To avoid having to feed syrup in the early season. It's there for the odd season when they need it.
Deep basic brood nest, with overwintered cluster.
Shallow of empty comb. This box was last fall's pollen box, used in August of the preceding season to support fall needs, and left in place for the winter. It will be used to CB with the top box. It's brood comb. Susequently (maybe two weeks after CB) a full shallow of brood will be moved to this position to be filled with long-term pollen for this season's pollen box.
Bottom board.

Does this help?
Walt


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

bluegrass said:


> Do you have a lot of traffic near your hives?


http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Garden/Garden7-2010004.jpg

Four lane divided highway.
Yes she just moved up from Stoney Brook in Long Island.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Walt, I have a question that you spoke about in the book too, brood comb. Why does brood comb matter? In a natural hive the bees do not move frames of comb around they just make it into what ever they want be it storing honey or pollen or raising brood.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Brood comb is already at brood-rearing depth. In the early season the bees won't use cells too shallow for brood - even to store nectar. Depending on your uncapping technique, cells might be too shallow for brood. Wax color doesn't matter.

Walt


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

So they won't build it back out to where they can use it for brood? I'm confused. How would they ever use foundation?


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## bluegrass (Aug 30, 2006)

Keep it simple:
If it has brood in it, it is brood comb, if it has honey in it it is honey comb, if it is empty, it is drawn comb.

For most purposes no other definition matters.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Acebird said:


> So they won't build it back out to where they can use it for brood? I'm confused. How would they ever use foundation?


I'm guessing that early in the season they don't have resources to produce very much wax? I'd never heard that, but it makes sense.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

The established colony doesn't have wax making capability in the early season, even with nectar coming in. In the swarm prep period they generate wax makers to leave with the swarm, but the overwintered colony doesn't have sustained wax makers until main flow.
Walt


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i am coming into spring with five colonies, and enough drawn comb to checkerboard them. i also have some meduim supers that still only have foundation.

i am not going to use a queen excluder. my plan was to move the first super to the bottom if it got filled up with brood, leave it there through winter for pollen, and use it to checkerboard next year.

my question is: would i be better off putting the supers with foundation on the bottom to start with, leave the drawn comb upstairs, and let it get back filled with honey later in the season?


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Sq.
The colony is reluctant to draw F any time through the season when it is used below the brood nest. While 1st year colonies are programed to build down, overwintered tend to avoid it. Your supers of F are usable at the top after the start of new wax at main flow. To get more F drawn during the flow, add the F at the top of the brood nest - bottom super. The broodnest will be receding, so add the next below the last. More work, for sure, but you will get more comb drawn.

If you only have five supers of drawn comb, you might be better off to only CB a couple of hives and use some other technique for swarm reduction on the rest. You need to keep the CBed in overhead drawn comb up to repro c/o. Brood nest expansion through the CBed supers is accellerated and may only take 2 weeks. Foundation above that doesn't help much.

In Jackson Co. you have a fair spread in season timing as a result of elevation. Depending on whether you are in the river valley or the mountains makes a difference. Somewhere in between, you could be exactly the same as my timing. Note that Huntsville in the valley is almost a full 2 weeks earlier than here. (Only 30 miles)

Good luck with your choice of options,
Walt


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very much appreciated walt. and yes, i am on a ridge top. i have a total of seven supers with drawn comb, enough to begin checkerboarding on the five hives, with some extra, hopefully enough to make it to new wax.
thanks again for the advice of bottom supering the foundation.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

walt, i have one hive that is already raising brood and even has drones. on inspection yesterday, the one medium super had five frames of capped honey and four frames of empty comb, so i alternated the honey with the empty comb. there are still plenty of stores in the deep. i did not add the second medium of empty comb, because there was not enough in the first medium to checkerboard with. any suggestions?


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Tough one. Check when you get a chance. If they fill the deep to the point of being crowded, and are not putting nectar in the med, pilfer a few outside frames of honey from the others to create another alternated box. Add it at the top.

If I understand, you have a deep with one med box of alternated above. The problem with that is the colony works to the top of their honey, and they seem to not be able to tell the difference between solid honey and alternated frames of empties. By having two supers of alternated, they build through the lower and you are home free.
Let's take this off-line via PM.
Walt


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Walt, thanks the box configuration is exactly what I was looking for. By the sounds of it I don’t have nearly enough drawn foundation to try this year. A quick question about drawing wax, since we have been on it a fair bit in this thread, if I give them some capping wax will they “rework” it to draw out the foundation? I was adding some wax to my plastic frames today and thought about that.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

If you are in an area where there is hive beetle.....Be carefull spreading and breaking up the brood nest. You spread the bees too thin, you are liable to find the hive slimed or powdered, depending on which of the two phenotypes of beetle you have. Here in Alabama, beetles can cause damage from February to November. WE try to keep the bees tight as much as possible and expand only when it is a must. Beetles changed our management. TED


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Thanks Ted, that explains alot of differences in management style between us Yanks and y'all. Sounds like you must walk the "almost swarming" line pretty close.

Crazy Roland


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

We control swarming by pulling a couple of frames to make up nucs in the spring. And yes we do walk a tight line on almost swarming. And we do loose swarms...We used to produce thousands of two and three pound packages of bees for sale each year. Canadian border closure and later the advent of the beetle changed all that. Now if you shake a colony too hard, it then is a death sentence for that colony. So if you spead the brood chamber, you thin the bee's coverage of those combs, and the beetles have a feast..The people that do produce packages, use an awful lot of things like filiprinol in their bees. Stuff I consider items that should never be placed in a beehive. TED


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

minz; (playing catch up)
If you put cappings wax above the inner cover it disappears with time. I think its used as a substitute for stored wax (burr comb) in the brood nest. I see no evidence that it is used for drawing new comb. That may be because new comb is fashioned by the wax makers themselves.
Walt


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## rurbanski (Dec 27, 2011)

Roland or bluegrass if I have no drawn comb to use can foundation frame work?


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## rurbanski (Dec 27, 2011)

BeeGhost,

I would think you will have a good wild flower flow in March - April and Blackberries after that. Depending were you are you are in Livermore orchards are going from Feb - May too.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Rurbanski - I am not qualified to answer your question. My climate is too different. Wcubed might be a better source of info. I can say that putting foundation in the brood area when there is no nectar flow often results in chewed out foundation because the bees use the wax elsewhere.

Crazy Roland


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Ted, It sound to me like you are describing what I call "With every blessing comes a curse" I suppose you can turn that around and say with every curse comes a blessing if you want.
I grew up in Kansas where you can grow just about anything. But there is also every insect swarm , plague, fungus and disease also. I now live in Nevada where you can't grow much more than rocks. and there are no pests to speak of either. I cheat and make my own soil and am able to grow some very nice gardens with few diseases and such. You may have a mild climate to keep bees in but then you never get a break either.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Hey, rocks are nice. That is what I got an actual education in but only work in the field when a job comes along-economic geology. Since those jobs with an occasional mining company are sparse in the hills of the southeast, beekeeping has filled the niche nicely for my adult life. TED


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## karenarnett (Mar 25, 2012)

Wonder if I can revive this thread several months later. This is a topic I'm interested in now. Wish I had read it before looking into my hives - I inserted a box in each of three hives, generally above the main cluster and below the honey packed top box. I didn't split the cluster and insert a box. I reversed hive bodies on one hive. But I'm wondering if it was a mistake to put in mostly empty frames/undrawn comb combos, as I didn't have much in the way of extra drawn comb. Has anyone had any experience with putting undrawn comb above the packed cluster? It may have been a mistake but all the hives had lots of bridge comb, giving me the idea that they are in the wax making mode, and there are plenty of house bees thanks to our early warm spell. Thoughts? Now I'll just have to wait and see what happens.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Sorry, Karen, but you can't escape me - I read 'em all. Posted my reservations on your other thread, but those were for a divided brood nest. Not relevant to your situation - where your brood was all in the bottom deep. You may be okay.

You should have forage coming in now and those early sources that are used primarily for pollen have nectar also. And they can retrieve honey from overhead at temps lower than flight temps. Have seen them use the small column of warm air rising off the broodnest to retrieve honey at less than 40F. They move like zombies, but they get it done.

So, the worst that is likely to happen is that they can fulfill swarm requirements in the bottom deep and cast an early and small swarm. (assuming continued mild spring temps)

Walt


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## karenarnett (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks Walt . Do you keep an observation hive? Otherwise, how did you observe the bees retrieving honey from above? Fathoming the secrets of the hive is key to being a good beekeeper and I'm intrigued as to how you did that. I could reålly feel the heat rising from the brood areas when I opened the hives.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

i use QE's above the brood, running either double deeps or a deep & medium. Whenever I check the broodnest and find a band of honey right above the brood, I take a cappings scratcher and open it up and the bees move it out................


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

karenarnett said:


> I could reålly feel the heat rising from the brood areas when I opened the hives.


Oops, how cool was it when you cracked the hive open? The brood needs that heat so a whole bunch of bees are going to come up between the frames in an attempt to close off the roof of their house you just opened. Now it is even harder to get frames out because the area that you have to pry is loaded with bees. Heavy smoke is bound to tick them off. A cover cloth would be a good piece of equipment to use in this case.


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## karenarnett (Mar 25, 2012)

I don't like to open the hive below 60, prefereably mid-60s as a minimum. I am very careful not to chill the bees. For that matter, I am conservative about the timing of my first look into the hives - don't like to get in too early in the season because I'm mindful that the bees have sealed up the cracks with propolis and breaking those seals when there are still good chances for cold weather would cause some distress. So those early warm spells usually don't lure me - unless it's evident that the cluster has moved to the top of the hive , meaning they may be at the end of their stores.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Karen,
When reading comb content to learn how the bees run their shop, we were in the hives frequently and at irregular times. When you see a wispy stream of up/down traffic to a declining patch of capped honey, it doesn't take much interpretation to draw a conclusion.

Did buy an observation hive, but never assembled it. Decided the observation hive is not representative and might as well learn from a functional hive.

Walt


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> Decided the observation hive is not representative and might as well learn from a functional hive.
> 
> Walt


I agree with this but there is still an uncertainty in a functional hive if it is physically invaded. I wonder what technology is available to researchers to deal with obstructive observation in the hive.


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## karenarnett (Mar 25, 2012)

nanotechnology? micro-cameras would be the answer; can any of us afford that technology?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Even if you could I am not sure it is the answer. How long would it take to get the lenses crapped up?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

A number of films have been made using small cameras inside beehives. I imagine they are similar to those used by surgeons and proctologists.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Sure at one time I had all the equipment to do that but the lenses are the size of a pin head and it doesn't take much to make them useless. Short term they are great but long term you would get a spec of something on the lesnse and not be able to see anything.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Karen,
Thanks for resurrecting this thread. Had a few things to add on the title subject. Off topic tangents kept up until we were distracted other priorities.

Roland,
Could the source of your management approach be Sechrist's "Clear Brood Nest" book?
ABJ ran it in serial form years ago and again about 20 years ago. A beginner at the time, couldn't wait for the next issue to arrive. Tried it with foundation. Didn't work. That was my first clue that overwintered colonies do not have wax-making capability in the buildup period.

bluegrass/Acebird,
Re: Colony moving up to the top at the onset of winter.
We've seen that a couple of seasons in 20 on the AL/TN state line. It was caused by failure of the colony to backfill the broodnest with nectar during the fall broodnest closeout. The colony instinctively "knows" they can't winter on an empty broodnest - they need the fuel for warming the cluster during the winter. They relocate up onto solid capped honey. Locally, they move back down into the prepared brood nest if crash fed. Wouldn't care to guess how an insulated bottom box might influence that.

Would expect that situation to be more prevalent in Yankeeland, where fall decends more quickly. Here the change from summer to winter is at a more leisurely pace and colonies generally get the broodnest properly backfilled.

Back to the thread subject:
We heard from two proponents of different types of opening the brood nest, and did not get a description of Mr Bushes style - that of using empty frames. Probably, frames of empty comb is more the norm. Thats 4 different techniques, and counting.

Roland speaks of a single deep brood chamber, but he must have at least another deep in the stack to add the deep frames of brood removed. His objective is to build population. If he used the frames of brood in a nuc, for example, he would be reducing population rate of gain. To remove a partially developed frame of brood and replace it with an empty frame of comb to be laid up, would seem to be counter productive in population gain - without retaining the removed in the stack.

What I visualize is pushing the queen to her egg-laying limit in one deep by adding empty brood comb twice a month. What say you, Roland?

Need to see Roland's answer before proceeding. We have said many times that the reason opening the broodnest is somewhat effective in swarm prevention is the delay caused by colony recovery from the disturbance.

Walt


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> It was caused by failure of the colony to backfill the broodnest with nectar during the fall broodnest closeout. The colony instinctively "knows" they can't winter on an empty broodnest - they need the fuel for warming the cluster during the winter. They relocate up onto solid capped honey.


Very much a possibility. Maybe I got too aggressive when putting on supers and they had too much to backfill. 20-20 hind site says that it didn't matter because the surviving hive has way more bees then I ever had at this time of the year.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

W - Could the source of your management approach be Sechrist's "Clear Brood Nest" book?

Not directly, can't say I ever read a beekeeping book. All oral tradition. When was it written, in the 40's? 

W - Didn't work. That was my first clue that overwintered colonies do not have wax-making capability in the buildup period.

We have a nectar flow USUALLY during buildup, so it can work here. If not, they chew up the foundation.

W - Roland speaks of a single deep brood chamber, but he must have at least another deep in the stack to add the deep frames of brood removed. His objective is to build population.

Yes, all deeps, supers and brood chamber.

W - What I visualize is pushing the queen to her egg-laying limit in one deep by adding empty brood comb twice a month. What say you, Roland?

True that, every 12-14 days.

W - We have said many times that the reason opening the broodnest is somewhat effective in swarm prevention is the delay caused by colony recovery from the disturbance.

I choose to disagree with this statement. We have seen NO evidence to support this claim. We believe that congestion, be it bees or honey filled frames, is the catalyst. Keeping open cells for the queen, and encouraging usage of the upper(above the excluder) supers, seems to accomplish these goals.

Crazy Roland


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Roland, 
Expected you to disagree with that statement. And the reason for the quiz was I believe that your application and one other are exceptions to the rule. The other is used by beekeepers in the deep south and involves removing frames of honey from the brood nest area and replacing them with empty comb. Both fish stix and Ted K use that approach to increase brood volume/population in late winter. They can do that in their area with early forage, but I would not try it here at the northern edge of Alabama.

Seems to me that most swarm prevention techniques are based on the knowledge that stronger colonies are more likely to swarm. The intent is to weaken the colony to a strength below the threshold of swarm ambition. Splitting in all its forms, including equal division, fall into the category of reducing colony strength. Done early or often enough, swarming is averted. And honey production suffers.

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned that broodnest disturbance slows or stops growth for a period of colony reorganization. That's true, excepting your way and the southern version with honey removal, which have minimal impact. Any time the relationship between location of stores and brood are changed, a delay in growth is induced. The bluegrass technique would definately qualify.

To appreciate how a delay in growth helps in swarm prevention, recognize that there is a point in the spring flow where the colony that has not commited to swarm by starting swarm cells abandons swarm ambition. That concept is not readily accepted by most folks, but we see it every year. It occurs about a brood cycle (3+ weeks) prior to the new wax of main flow. The colony can still swarm after that period, but it will not be a reproductive swarm. Repro swarms are the most common.

We can safely say that most swarm prevention techniques, with few exceptions, limit both population of the colony and resultant honey production. Checkerboarding is quite different. Colony populations and honey production are both increased by a substantial amount. Will describe those differences next time.

Walt


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Walt, my bias is towards Roland's methods for a number of reasons. Recently I read a nugget of information in an old beekeeping book, if I wasn't off to work in a few minutes I'd track down the reference, It said something like "I have changed the mind of a hive trying to swarm many times by adding a frame of brood, no bees, to the hive." Is that one of the other methods you list above that doesn't limit honey production?


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your comments. I have been studying the various methods of swarm prevention for a while now. This thread especially, as well as a number of other threads on Beesource have been very informative in bringing out the details of some of these methods.

Due to the things I have learnt along the way, some of my experiences, and after doing a Post-Swarm 'Autopsy', I have come to the conclusion that: 

*Swarming is caused by there being a large number of unemployed/unoccupied Nurse Bees.*


Here's why:
When you look at the various methods, they are all about keeping the bees in the Brood Nest occupied.
Look closer at them and you find it's about keeping Nurse Bees occupied in the Brood Nest.
Also, the majority of bees in a swarm are Nurse Bees.
When swarming, the bees chase the queen out of the hive and keep annoying her until she flies. (She doesn't lead the swarm.)
The swarming queen looses enough weight so that she can fly because she stops laying eggs. This is because she has no where to lay eggs due to back filling of the brood nest with nectar, by the foragers.

My brother and I did a Post-Swarm 'Autopsy' the same day that a hive had swarmed, by taking photos of both sides of every frame in the hive.

Every available cell in the brood nest had something in it! In order, the majority of cells had Nectar, then next was Pollen, then solid Capped Honey around the outside of the Brood Nest, then some small patches of Capped brood, and very little uncapped brood inside the bands of capped honey. Then of course there were several queen cells. There were a few partially drawn frames of foundation in the second brood box, but the majority of drawn cells had nectar in them as well. The edge frames were also like this. There was space in frames above the excluder, but Nurse bees don't usually go that far away from the Brood Nest.

It became very clear. 

*THERE WAS NOTHING FOR NURSE BEES TO DO!!!*

Most swarm prevention methods work because they give the Nurse Bees something to do.

Thanks Walt for your comments. Obviously Checkerboarding works differently by getting foragers to store nectar above the Brood Nest, instead of Backfilling the Brood Nest. So there is always open brood to keep Nurse Bees busy.

So Adrian, yes. adding a frame of brood also fits with this conclusion, as its gives the nurse bees something to do. (I wonder what sort of ratio of brood frames would be needed to be added to keep enough nurse bees occupied.)

Another method I am interested in trying it that described by Jerry Hayes on this site and a method that Joseph Clemens regularly posts about. That is, placing the main entrance directly above a queen excluder so the entrance is into the supers. This works another way by discouraging foragers from storing nectar in the Brood Nest. So it appears to stop back filling of the Brood Nest and so there is always enough open brood to keep Nurse Bees busy.

Matthew Davey


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

W - Roland,
Expected you to disagree with that statement. 

I am glad I fulfilled your expectations of me.

I looked up the Seacrist book, it was written in the 40's. It is possible that my Grandfather read that book, or at least, the methods where widely discussed at that time. Our family has been using the method since at least the 40's. There are some risks, do to the experience need to know how hard you can push them. A keen eye on the 7 day weather planner for a pending cold snap can mitigate grave (pun intended) errors.

Crazy Roland


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Swarming is caused by there being a large number of unemployed/unoccupied Nurse Bees.

I agree. If you want to distill it to one thing, that's probably it. Switching boxes occupies those bees rearranging the brood nest and rearranging the brood nest opens some cells long enough for the queen lay in them. Empty frames in the brood nest occupy them drawing comb and then nursing the bees the queen lays in the new comb. Giving them open brood would also occupy them. But anything that gives the queen a place to lay will occupy them...


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Thank you Micheal for endorsing that THEORY. In response to Matt, was wondering if I should mention that the beesource guru believed it to be true.

I don't see it that way at all. Excess young bees is just one indication, of many, of the EFFECTS of the instinctive honey bee reproductive process. Reproduction by colony division is a complicated, and care must be given to both halves to insure survival of the parent colony and provide the offspring swarm with the best chance of establishment/survival in a new location. Although quite complex, the bees have had a long time to incorporate those elements of support into their instincts.

Young bees are needed in both halves. Brood rearing is continuous in the parent and the swarm must have immediate replacement bees, during establishment. Brood rearing starts in the relocated swarm with cells barely started - almost no cell sidewall. Urgent. Which brings us to wax makers. The swarm makes no progress without comb. Wax makers are reported to need 10 days in quiet meditation to secrete wax, and the swarm needs a large contingent of those "unemployed" young bees.

Bee crowding is another effect of the process that is considered a "cause." It's automatic that generating two viable colonies in a one-colony space would create some crowding, but it also supports the generation of the wax makers. Wax makers need about 100 degrees F to generate wax. By crowding into the top of the cavity, they can elevate the temperture with collective metabolic heat.

May as well mention another favorite "cause" here on these forums that is an EFFECT. No Room For The Queen To Lay. Reduction of the brood voume by backfilling is quite deliberate and provides benefit to both the parent and offspring swarm. The parent gets a headstart on resupplying winter honey. Note that they only have the second half of the spring flow remaining. It also helps to recognize that their survival traits were developed for the forest where a fall flow is unlikely. Getting the brood nest back to a level appropriate to the fixed cavity size of the tree hollow is also of benefit.

The swarm benefits from backfilling by freeing up the young bees we've been talking about.

Yes, the reproductive process is complicated, but we don't believe any single element of the indications that we see are causes. The bees, or any creature, does not need an excuse for their reproductive process. It is handed down by instinct. We see the whole process as a well-orchestrated scheme that is undeniably effective.

Walt


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I should have specified reproductive swarming as we all know overcrowding can cause swarming as well. And my point isn't that that is the only factor, but if you're trying to distill reproductive swarming to one factor that you can control, occupying otherwise unemployed nurse bees does seem to be at the root. Your checkerboarding keeps them occupied with expansion when they would otherwise be unoccupied.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> We see the whole process as a well-orchestrated scheme that is undeniably effective.
> 
> Walt


So as a manipulation either providing more space and or occupying the nurse bees time is enough of an upset to change the orchestrated scheme if done soon enough.
I guess the books do not define honey as part of the brood nest but to me it is a key element. However you manipulate the honey above the brood nest will affect the brood nest quite dramatically.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Thank you Michael and Walt. I appreciate your comments.

I should have stated I was talking about Reproductive Swarms. I also agree Walt that it is not the only cause, but I'm thinking it is the major driver to the colony committing to swarming. So it can be used to discourage a hive from swarming.

Thanks again,
Matthew Davey


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

MB
That's one way to look at it, but the original intent of checkerboarding was to intercede in the format further upstream. To divert the nectar of backfilling overhead. Got lucky - it worked. The side effects were of more value than just avoiding swarming. The technique was more reliable than other swarm prevention measures and larger populations generated much more honey production. Thought other beekeepers should know about it and abandoned my objective of supplemental retirement income, and now make a full time job of promoting the concepts. It's still a tough sell, but making some progress.

Had my cryptic say and am ready to let this thread expire.

Walt


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

For those interested I have found the reference I was talking about in my previous post. Page 9 of Better Queens by Jay Smith. "In nature, when swarming, the bees seldom need more than one cell and never more than three or four, but they often build from one to two dozen. Why this extravagance in cell building I do not know but possibly the bees are secreting so much milk in their glands they want to get rid of it. This desire to get rid of this over-supply of milk is probably one of the causes of swarming. I have often prevented swarming by adding unsealed brood from other colonies. This gave bees so much larvae to feed that they found an outlet for the excess of bee milk and the colony tore down the queen cells it had started."


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

this is my favorite thread. many thanks again to you walt, mb, and all the others who have been contributing.

i only a had a few hives that i could try checkerboarding on this year, but so far, no swarms.

these hives were overwintered in one deep and one medium super. when the time came to checkerboard, several of the medium frames of honey had already been consumed, so i tried alternating the honey frames with the empty comb frames in the one super to approximate checkerboarding.

when foraging started, i added a second super of drawn comb above the first super. when the population increased and they started filling the second super, i added a third super. all i had at this point was foundation, but i checkerboarded the foundation with the nectar filled comb from the second super, so that the top two supers were now alternating frames of nectar filled comb and foundation.

one of the hives had been bearding outside for the past couple of days. i inspected it today, and found that they had only modestly began drawing out the foundation frames in the second and third super, but had almost completely back filled the brood comb in the first super. i found several uncapped queen cells with jelly on the middle frames of the first super.

in the deep, there was not much backfilling, and lots of brood, but only a few eggs. i think i found the queen, but she was shrunk down almost beyond recognition.

my questions are:

1. could we already be past reproductive cut off and could these be supercedure cells?

2. did not having enough drawn comb cause them to run out of room upstairs too quickly and back fill the first super?

i also opened up the brood nest in the deep a few times by donating capped brood to some smaller hives and put in foundationless frames.

i decided to pull what i think was the queen and three frames of brood and made a nuc.

can we please not let this thread expire?


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

A.Q.
I worry about an expert that doesn't know that one cell is invariably supersedure.
That doesn't take away from the possibility that adding a frame of open brood could disrupt the format enough to avert swarming.

Sq,
1. We were in Harolds this past Sunday, and I believe them to be past Repro c/o. Two weeks earlier a couple colonies showed a hint of new wax and now all have some token new wax, but not enough to be 'all up' main flow.(Repro c/o wax purging) And none needed another super (Lull.) Those indications would be about three weeks earlier than normal and that's about the average lead time for trees in the area.

If that is a 2nd year colony, they start supersedure promptly at repro c/o. If that colony had 6 or less Queen cells, regardless of colony age, I would guess SS. !0 or more - swarm.
Another clue worth noting is the age of queen cells. If they are all about the same stage of developement - that's an indication of supersedure. To see the variation in developement age of swarm cells, you might have to wait a week or more if the first cells have been just started on the leaders. Too late for that now.

Conflicting data: Bearding this early is a bad sign. Doesn't normally happen to CBed with adequate perceived room to grow.

2. Possibly. You may remember that I told you that your drawn comb inventory was marginal. Although brood nest reduction starts at repro c/o, it's not as quick as the backfilling of swarm preps. When properly motivated with overhead drawn comb needing filling, the brood nest drifts smaller at a slower pace.


Other: If you are uncertain about the queen in the nuc, you likely have reason to be. Queens trimmed for flight still look very much like queens. Some workers do appear to have longer abdomens than others.

Walt


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

many thanks walt.

there is a lot of new white wax in this and other colonies. i found only a few queen cells, and they were about the same age.

i have been having to add supers for the past 2-3 weeks, but i'm not seeing much in bloom at this time.

i am pushing the foundation as much as i can this year, and robbing brood to build up new colonies. hope to be able to over winter 12 strong colonies with a few nucs on the side, and have enough drawn comb to properly checkerboard next year.

the queen in question appeared to have a little bit of her mark left from last year, but it could have been pollen. i have another hive that is queenless due to operator error, and i will probably be getting a few new queens soon.

again, many thanks, best regards, and look me up when you are this neck of the woods next time.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Walt, I don't think Jay Smith was confused about supersedure. I understood that he was pointing out the abundance of swarm cells to support his hypothesis that "over-supply of bee milk" was a probable cause of swarming; In other words when the goal of the parent colony is to produce several well-fed virgins their routine practice is to make 12-24. I haven't seen a better hypothesis for this. 
I echo Square Peg's appreciation of this thread. Beesource is very valuable to me, it gives an opportunity to interact with beekeepers who think outside the box and are generous enough to share their time. Thanks.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

I've been thinking over the last few days that in order to compare the various swarm prevention methods, especially Checkerboarding and Opening the Brood Nest, I think it's worth making a list of the general stages (not considering the age of the hive) and factors in spring buildup that contribute to Reproduction Swarms.

This is what I believe happens as concisely as possible. If I have things out of place or just plain wrong let me know.

- A couple of inches of capped honey around the outside of the brood nest is seen as the boundary of the colony.
- Space is created in the brood nest by consumption of honey during winter, aiding in heating, and then during spring build up, generally moving upwards.
- Due to lower temperatures, clustering continues, especially at night and so nectar is preferred to be stored in the brood nest.
- Large amounts of pollen are available in early spring and this is stored in the brood nest to raise increasing amounts of brood. This is determined by cluster size.
- Brood are often raised in batches during spring buildup due to limited space. Brood population can almost double with each batch. As the brood nest expands, gradually all stages of brood are present.
- Wax making capabilities are very limited in late winter and early spring due to temperatures being too low and limited incoming nectar. So extension of comb is limited.
- Expanding areas of brood, and storage of nectar and pollen in the brood nest by foragers puts pressure on the available space in the brood nest.
- During a spring flow, empty cells are quickly filled by the foragers with nectar, before the Queen finds them.
- Empty cells become less and less very quickly as they are filled with nectar. Quickly reducing the amount of open brood.
- The Queen starts loosing weight due to laying less and less eggs.
- With a large amount of young Nurse Bees, any very young brood start getting a lot of attention and large amounts of Royal Jelly is available to get deposited into these cells, making ideal conditions for Queen Cell building.
- Once the brood nest is backfilled with nectar, and there is a large number of unemployed Nurse Bees, then queen cells are built.
- Due to little space to store nectar, Nurse Bees are also full of nectar. This aids in preparing for wax production. (It is held on to as long as possible, in preparation for a swarm.)
- The Nurse Bees are now ready to swarm as soon as weather permits.
- Scouts start searching for a new hive location.
- When ready to leave, a signal is sounded and bees (especially Nurse Bees) start flowing out of the hive, chasing the Queen out as they go to get her to leave with them.

*Contributing factors to Swarming*
So when looking at the stages in spring buildup it seems that the main issues in causing swarm conditions are backfilling of the brood nest with nectar, which then causes there to be large numbers of unoccupied Nurse Bees. Once there is a large number of unoccupied Nurse Bees, opening the brood nest may not be enough to prevent a swarm.

*Checkerboarding* attempts to get the foragers to store nectar above the brood nest rather than in it, by providing empty comb above the brood nest. Ideally this is done before nectar sources becomes plentiful. It becomes clear that this leaves the brood nest free from congestion and allows for maximum population. All stages of brood continue throughout the spring buildup. Ensuring there is enough open brood to keep large numbers of Nurse Bees occupied. The issue with Checkerboarding for those new to beekeeping is lack of drawn comb.

*Opening the Brood Nest* does not stop backfilling of the brood nest with nectar. Rather it tries to maintain enough space in the brood nest to allow for backfilling, while maintaining enough space for the queen to lay and to ensure that there is always open brood to keep Nurse Bees occupied. Placing empty frames or foundation in the brood nest encourages wax builders earlier in the season, but wax making uses extra nectar and likely requires higher temperatures in wax making areas, again using more nectar.

*Conclusion*
So based on that, it seems that deterring foragers from storing nectar in the brood nest in the first place looks like the best way to prevent swarms, produce a higher population and to yield a larger honey crop. (Sorry MB).


Thanks Walt Wright and Michael Bush and to everyone else who have contributed to this valuable discussion. I certainly have learnt much from it.

I will also start a new thread with the details from this post to put the summary at the start of the thread rather than reading through several pages first. Here it is.

Thanks everyone,
Matthew Davey


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

MattDavey said:


> - The Queen starts loosing weight due to laying less and less eggs.


I think the queen looses weight because the tenders stop feeding her.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

Acebird, I have replied on the Factors contributing to Swarms and Swarm Prevention thread.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Adrian/Roland:
It occurs to me that you guys are in a position to push back the frontiers a bit. The subject of wax purging came up on the "summary thread." It's a concept that originated here and very little is known about early wax making. Or, under what circumstances it can be induced. See a recent post on the other thread.

In discussing the differences in what we see with M. Bush, we (MB and I) agreed that we need to know more about the traits of the bees on the subject. That gave rise to the "Experiment" on his website. No one was interested and it was DOA.

Roland reported above that he sees early wax making in some seasons. We saw substantial this season, but my question is whether or not it was wax purging or field nectar induced. I think purging because it stopped about mid lull with the area covered in a multitude of tree species in bloom. (Including wild cherry and Black Locust - 2 of their favorites) We now make the distinction of "sustained" wax making as unique to main flow.

Am assuming your moving capped brood above the excluder is incremental - like 1 frame when the cluster is smaller and increasing the number of frames as the population builds. So you guys are in a position to help out on the experiment, if you're willing to use foundation on a couple of hives to get a few preliminary data points. You might even have time on your schedule to get a heads up this year.

Please??
Walt


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Walt, yes moving the brood above the excluder is incremental as you describe. My deep frames are all Mann Lake PF's. Are you asking that we run the Roland type method with the designated (undrawn) honey frames undrawn as an indicator of when wax starts to be drawn? I could do this with a couple of hives. What observations/data points are you looking for?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Am assuming your moving capped brood above the excluder is incremental - like 1 frame when the cluster is smaller and increasing the number of frames as the population builds.

Basically, yes.

Please define wax purging.

Exactly what do you wish us to do? I have about 100 deeps with foundation.

For reference, we are in the middle of our dandelion bloom.
Crazy Roland


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

My dandelion bloom is just starting.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

A.Q.,
That's the general idea. This is not a good year to try this because of the advanced bee/tree schedule. An experienced beekeeper would have a good feel for when the sustained new wax of main flow started in his area. This season is not representative in most of the East. But a little adjustment in timing might be an indication of results for a typical season if referenced to the start of 2012 main flow.

MB, in using empty frames in the buildup/swarm prep period says that the bees jump on it and draw it out - if there are enough bees to festoon the open space created by the frame removal. Maybe room to festoon (no foundation) makes a difference, but that's a refinement in the investigation.

Conversely, I get no action on foundation any time prior to main flow. (Seacrist and other tests.) Bees use it for a ladder to upper comb only. True of fully established, overwintered colonies. 

Mr Palmer in Vermont reports that his bees are capping honey prior to main flow. In contrast, my bees don't cap overhead nectar until main flow. Is it a regional thing or is somebody reading it differently from others? That's one question I have, but not necessarily the starting place.

First, I'd like to see when the colony will draw foundation inserted in the broodnest interior referenced to main flow. In other words, how far, time wise, in advance of main flow will they have sustained wax making capability. On each cycle of raising brood, give them a frame of foundation immediately adjacent to a frame of brood. If you don't get the same results I do, we'll consider it a regional thing and figure out the next step.

I tend to talk in riddles. And over-condense. Feel free to grill me.
Walt


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Roland, 
You posted while I was dinking with my keyboard.
Re wax purging. What I see in Dixie is waxmakers generated during swarm preparations deposit their wax when its no longer needed for support of the swarm in a new location. Two circumstances cause purging. Either reproductive cut off or some are left behind when the swarm leaves. Those wax makers deposit their wax to prepare for a job change.

Walt


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## Bill AR (Sep 28, 2009)

Room to festoon is an interesting concept. Two weeks ago I noticed one hive had drawn out about half of a medium frame that I had left in from a protein patty feeding experiment. After they consumed the patty they proceeded to draw out the now empty frame. I removed the unintentional frame and gave them two frames of wax coated plasticell foundation between frames of brood. After 1 week no wax was being drawn - - anywhere. Maybe this was "wax purging" . They had started to raise a little drone brood in the foundationless wax, otherwise it was empty wax.


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

"In contrast, my bees don't cap overhead nectar until main flow. Is it a regional thing or is somebody reading it differently from others?"

I would have to agree with Mr. Palmer.... My bee will also cap overhead stores prior to the main flow. But, In particular, my local humidity is very much lower that in your area so even when it is cool ( 60F-70F ) the bees can easily dry it down.

Fuzzy


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Fuzzy,
Thought we agreed that your bees came out of your mild winter with wax making capability. Very different situation from most of the temperate US. If they have wax makers, they likely have nectar driers also. At least both are generated here during the same period.

Walt


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> First, I'd like to see when the colony will draw foundation inserted in the broodnest interior referenced to main flow. In other words, how far, time wise, in advance of main flow will they have sustained wax making capability. On each cycle of raising brood, give them a frame of foundation immediately adjacent to a frame of brood. If you don't get the same results I do, we'll consider it a regional thing and figure out the next step.


Doesn't feeding affect the results? Who's not feeding?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

What I see in Dixie is waxmakers generated during swarm preparations deposit their wax when its no longer needed for support of the swarm in a new location

Can't say I have ever seen that. We do not get that close to swarm preparation???

After some thought, if you put a frame of foundation in when there is little nectar flow, they will draw part of it out, using the wax from the part they did not use.

Crazy Roland


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Walt,
We did indeed agree as you stated. So, don't let anyone suggest that your memory is poorly.

Fuzzy


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Roland/Adrian,
And I don't see much of that. (wax relocation) We're inching closer without any testing.

Should have mentioned that M. Bush might have other things in mind to try. Give him a PM to ask what he thinks might be a good approach. His opinion would take priority.

Ace, 
I, for one, am not feeding in the spring.
Walt


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> Ace,
> I, for one, am not feeding in the spring.
> Walt


But if someone did it would change things right?


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## woodyard (Apr 12, 2005)

Gentlemen, I must say this has been one of the best discussions I have ever seen on the forums. It was kept very civil and mostly on topic. Very educational. Thank you.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Give him a PM to ask what he thinks might be a good approach. 

Will do .

Crazy Roland


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I could smell the wax across the yard and with the nice weather I opened it up and went through the entire hive. I had about 4 additional frames drawn out 50 to 75% with zero brood in either of the two 10F deeps. I don’t know if it counts as a “flow” or not. Lots of dandelions, plum, peaches blooming but no apple yet but crab apples are close. Should I give them more foundation or what? Very little capped honey. 
Does that help you walt or are you looking for a better %. I did not take pictures. Been a bad year for this rookie. Lost 2 in fall to robbing (1 yellow jackets, 1 to other hives) lost one here when we had back to back snow fall late and they could not get to their candy board. Now queenless before apples. Yes feeding a candyboard.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

minz,
Wouldn't hazard a guess as to your season benchmarks. West of the mountains, your season might be slightly ahead of mine. I'm in early main flow.

Appreciate your input, but think I would have to see that F being drawn to have a bit better feel for whether it might be wax purging or not. The amount is more than we have ever seen in purging in my area. One frame's worth is more than we see normally to that extent, and that's an outside limit. It's possible that you are in main flow, that comb was being filled as it was being drawn, and the nectar moved to the brood nest because of a nectar dearth at present. Can't guess at your seasonal flow characteristics either.

Our flow is constantly increasing to main flow and starts declining about swam issue timing. Flow patterns are definately a part of the picture we're trying to get.

Will keep this handy. Let us know when nectar/honey resumes in that new comb, If it's convenient for you.

Walt


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I will need to check my notes. I generally put down what percentage of each frame is drawn, what the brood is (%) and capped honey (%). I seem to remember putting some new plastic in the hive with extra thick coating of new capping wax. I did move frames around after her sister hive starved in the last snowstorm. I mention this after your last comment because now I have a hive that had capped brood going into the last snow storm and now has pretty much none (queenless, 0 new brood). I would think they would have had a lot of nurse bees without any jobs to do and a handful of frames with wax smeared all over them. Also the frames I considered to be “drawn” were not fully drawn but a visible pattern of drawn wax, many only about 1/8”. I am west of the Cascades (Mt. Hood lower elevations) East of the coast range. I think much like you in a high enough elevation that I am about 2 weeks behind Portland’s bloom. I have been reading about the country being so warm this winter but we have been consistently 7-10 degrees below average and have been breaking rain fall records (for our climate that is raining). Maybe over eager but I gain a lot from this thread and would like to contribute my overzealous engineering record keeping. Now if I could just keep them alive.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Adrian/Roland,
There are some posts on the thread --Re: "need" to draw wax-- that are relevant to the experiment. squarepeg had some foundationless in the broodnest that was drawn early. see posts 8 and 12 on that thread.

I would still like for you to try foundation in the brood nest to confirm my results of 20 years ago. I no longer have bees.

Most us are aware that a hole or void in drawn comb is often filled in with drone cells when patched by the bees - even if located up in a honey super. I was also aware that MB saw extensive drone cells with the empty frame replacement, but didn't put it together. The eureka moment was that the colony was filling the void with drawn drone cells. But the questions still unanswered are:
...Do they develope wax making just for that purpose and then lose it?
...Does worker sized foundation fill the void with a cell pattern that is unacceptable?
Complicated - aint it?
Walt


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

wcubed said:


> ...Does worker sized foundation fill the void with a cell pattern that is unacceptable?


Logically yes. If all that is available is worker foundation then it most definitely is lacking in drone cells. If I were to start a brand new hive today with new equipment I would have an open frame in the first and third position from both ends. That way the bees can build what ever they want or need.


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Walt, I have some recent anecodotal data for you pertaining to my collection of 9 nucs these were overwintered in 5 frame colonies two boxes deep, for a total of 10 frames per colony. 
From the middle of March through the second week of April we had unseasonably warm temperatures into the 70's. During this time I became concerned that I would see swarming. To convince them that they had plenty of space I reversed the boxes and added another 5 frame box of the undrawn plastic foundation I use (a third tier of boxes); Then to encourage use of that space I exchanged the middle frames of the top undrawn box with the middle frame of the drawn (and occupied) frame below it.
The 3rd level was added on April 4th.
Yesterday I was checking colonies for stores (we have had some chilly rainy weather this last week) when I checked the above-mentioned nucs I noticed that neither of the 2 nucs I checked had drawn out the center undrawn frame that was placed within the center of the middle box and had a drawn frame directly above it. 
Yet, between the top of the frames of the middle box and the bottom of the frames of the box above it there were many drone larva that had been filled in since my previous inspection.
We are in apple and dandelion bloom at the time of writing and today it was mid 60's and sunny.


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## Fuzzy (Aug 4, 2005)

Walt,

A question on hive behavior during supercedure.... These hives were checkerboarded, have 2 deeps, no excluder, and 4-6 supers in place. They are full of bees but nowhere near full of nectar yet. Recently, there are large numbers of bees on the front of the hive. Some on the porch and many more in an upward arch across the face of the hive. The temps are in the 60-73F. This is not a typical heat related beard. There is a decent nectar flow underway at this time.

Am wondering if they are awaiting the hatching of a new (supercedure) queen ? Or, a mating flight ?

Any thoughts ? -- Fuzzy


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Adrian,
Thanks for the timing reference. If your bee vs vegetation schedules are the same as mine, you should be right at repro c/o.


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## wcubed (Aug 24, 2008)

Fuzzy,
We see no outward indications of SS. The pattern you describe is familiar, but we associate it with crowding. We see it mostly post harvest when the the bees are suddenly confined to less space, even with positive ventilation at the top.
Walt


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