# Foundationless cell sizes



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'm thinking about hive no.2 for next year, and wondering if small cells would appear in foundationless 14" x 8.5" deep frames. Maybe extra deep 14" x 12" frames would be better.

Why the odd sized frames? Why not deeps or Dadant deeps in a Lanstroth box? I have had DE hives and a lot of non standard sized boxes and don't see any advantages.

>Has anyone measured cell sizes in their TBHs or foundationless frames and obtained results similar to topbarguy's measurements ?

I haven't looked at his lately, but last I read, yes. I have had cells as small as 4.6mm in the center of a brood nest on 1 1/4" spaced combs.

>Is it possible to say how deep the combs must be before smaller cell sizes start to appear ?

Deep as in the dimensions of the frame or deep as in thickness of the comb? I have a lot of foundationless frames that are mediums (6 1/4" frames with only 5 1/4" combs) and they build small cell (as well as every other size when it suits their purpose) in that.

>Do they appear at a fixed distance below the top bar, or at a certain proportion of the depth, or does the comb width have an influence ?

I don't think depth has any real influence on cell size. Comb spacing DOES seem to have some influence. I've let them space combs as they want and that varies much and varies with cell size. The 4.6mm to 4.9mm sized cells are where the combs are about 1 1/4" on center. The bees start building the combs further apart when they do drone comb and even further when they build storage comb. So the center of the brood nest seems to end up 1 1/4" on center. The comb with some drone in it seems to be more like 1 3/8" and the storage comb is more like 1 3/4" to 2" or more.


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## dts (Jul 19, 2004)

> Why the odd sized frames? 

They aren't odd sizes on this side of the pond! I omitted to mention that it's a BS National hive. The National deep frame is 14" wide by approx 8.5" deep, and 17" over the lugs. The extra deep frame is 12" deep.
See http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/bsframedimensions.html 

> Deep as in the dimensions of the frame ...?

Yes. Because the cells in topbarguy's hives varied in size with distance below the top bar, I assumed that the vertical size of the comb played some part in determining what size cell was built.

> Comb spacing DOES seem to have some influence.

Interesting... what spacing do you use in your foundationless frame hives ? Presumably constant throughout the brood box, despite the bees desire for variable spacing. I don't think topbarguy mentioned the spacing of the combs he measured.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I should have noticed. Yes, if that's the standard there, I'd stick with the standard.

I have some spaced 1 3/8" and some I cut the end bars down to 1 1/4". Of course I also space them 9 to a 10 frame box for honey supers so that's over 1 1/2".


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

>Yes. Because the cells in topbarguy's hives >varied in size with distance below the top >bar, I assumed that the vertical size of the >comb played some part in determining what >size cell was built.

I will know more after analyzing some photos of comb from a top bar hive that's shorter than mine. Barry removed a hive from a house eve. The comb was short and had some small cell sized comb, but not very much of it.

> don't think topbarguy mentioned the spacing of the combs he measured.

My combs were centered on 1 1/4 inches. It worked great in the brood area but not very good in the honey storage area. 

This year I'm running 1 3/8 inch bars as a test. The bees constructed the broodnest with its tapered cell size and orientation the same way as with 1 1/4 inch spacing. But I think they had more of a tendancy to build crooked comb.

The bees don't care much about comb orientation or spacing in the honey storage area. Check out the pictures of ferals hives on the Florida Yahoo Groups list. It's really easy to see where brood is raised and honey is stored. I'm not sure even a 2 inch bar would solve the problem.

I have approached this issue as a management problem also. I'm moving 'unacceptable' top bars to the rear of the hive and replacing them with new bars inside the broodnest. If the comb overlaps a couple of bars, I move them intact rather than cutting lots of comb. Hopefully the number of acceptable bars will increase and the unacceptable ones will be harvasted.

I plan on returning to 1 1/4" bars on my next tbh with this management scheme.

Regards
Dennis


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## dts (Jul 19, 2004)

It sounds as if some more experimentation would be useful. The extra deep frames may be better for overwintering in my location, so perhaps I'll try them foundationless with narrower spacing and see what happens.

Thanks for the replies !


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## 2 solitudes (Aug 13, 2004)

I just want to make sure I undersdand. The space measurement you did (1 1/4) is from adjacent frames center to center (namely from fondation to fondation, including fondation thickness), isn't it ? 
This interframe space has been discussed on italian and french forums also and has been called "Mussi space". Mussi, Itialan, in beekeeping meetings recommanded a 3.1 mm to 3.2 mm interspace for the brood as an effective action against varroas, which is about 1 1/4, if I understood well. This year I grinded some hoffman frames to try this interframe space. Drawing is more or less satisfying.

Hervé


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Yes, from center to center. 1 1/4" is 31.75mm. It does seem to encourage smaller cells which helps with the varroa, but I would combine it with small cell foundation or no foundation.


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## 2 solitudes (Aug 13, 2004)

My mistake, of cours 1' 1/4 was, and still is, about 32 mm or 3.2 cm.

Thanks for having corrected.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Acutally I wasn't trying to correct you. I knew what you meant and I thought you said 3.1cm to 3.2cm, but on second reading, I guess you misplaced either the decimel or the name.


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## Sharkey (May 27, 2004)

Topbarguy: "Check out the pictures of ferals hives on the Florida Yahoo Groups list"

I live in Florida. Can you give me a link or some info on this group . I would like to look at the group.

Thank you,
Sharkey

------------------
It's Not The Destination, It's The Journey. We Cannot Change The Wind, But We CAN Trim The Sails.


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## ewetmill (Aug 2, 2004)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FloridaBeekeepers/


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

I have a bad back and use medium foundationless frames. I have some 4.5 cells near the bottom of the frame. I have noticed the bees start out at about 5.1mm to 5.3 alot fewer frames of the latter. The cells keep getting smaller as you go down the frame. Of course this is in the brood area. I have rotated some of the outer frames away as these are storage cell and such so that I keep brood combs only in the brood chambers. It took one round of them drawing there one comb before I got these number as my bees where raised on 5.4mm.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

I've added a few pictures that dramatically show how cell size tapers from the top to the bottom of comb. Not all comb is as dramatic as this. And I've found it's hard to see the taper when the eyes/mind have been trained to think in one size. Check out:
http://bwrangler.litarium.com/natural-comb/ 

Regards
Dennis


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I posted a new picture of a drawn foundationless frame for those who are interested. A lot of people are concered about how it's anchord to the frame. As you can see it's anchored on all four sides with only the corners left open. The bottom was the last to be attached. This one was a standard grooved top bar frame that was cut on a bevel.
http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/images/FoundationlessDrawn.JPG 
http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bush/bush_bees.htm


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