# calling all wood workers (NEED HELP)



## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

You already have what you need. Just get a dovetail or box joint jig for your router.
I use a 10 inch contractors table saw and dado blade and think this would be all you would need if you were wanting something to use long term.
Of course it never ends at "need" and you'll start to look at stuff you "want"!


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## dave beeman (Sep 2, 2009)

A big ditto to JD's Bees.
I use a table saw and dado blade to make thousands of frame pieces. I prefer to do it this way.
I set up my saw to make the same cut over and over and over and over. Sorry there is no easy way to describe the amount of work you will do. Last year alone I made over four thousand frame pieces. 
In the near future I will be making a machine that uses two dato blades to cut the top bar side grooves.
The main thing to remember is everybody does things a little different. Start and see what will work for you.
good luck.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

I'll add that I use a band saw (that was originally purchased for other projects) to rip 19" sections of 2x4 into my 0.75"x1.25" and 0.75"x1.375" top bars...a table saw would work, but the 0.020" blade thickness of the band saw turns a lot less of my wood into dust than the 0.125" circular saw blade.

Other than that, I'm gonna say the "required" tools are a circular saw (though I still WANT to get a table saw...makes a LOT of cuts easier/faster) and a builder's square...and lots of ambition. ... and maybe a pneumatic (or at least electric) brad/staple gun...your wrist would get mighty tired using a manual one when assembling box ends & frames


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## MichaelShantz (May 9, 2010)

A tablesaw is no doubt faster, but I use bandsaw, saber saw, jigsaw, router, bench planer, belt sander, and desktop milling machine.
http://picasaweb.google.com/MichaelJShantz/BeeHive4302010#
The variable speed bandsaw and lathe/mill also do metal work.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

MichaelShantz said:


> A tablesaw is no doubt faster, but I use ......., and desktop milling machine.


Yeah, NOW I'm really jealous...and here I wished I had a tablesaw!


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

All you need is a table saw and a dado blade set. DO NOT BUY A CHEAP ONE! Cheap dado sets cut badly, usually are somewhat worse than dull, and will drive you nuts.

A band saw is a great help in making frames, but not absolutely necessary -- I've not got one yet, and will be making frames tonight for shallow supers, we are in the middle of a honey flow at the moment and we need some pronto. Have the boxes already.

Frame end bars are easier if you have a planer, too, but you can probably manage without one. 

You will want a box joint jig for making boxes, but that's a shop made tool once you get the dado set. You can make everything else with the standard blade, dado set, nails, glue, and wood. Metal for top covers is nice, I'm using aluminum flashing.

Peter


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

I have two table saws; one is a $99 special and it's nearly thirty years old - I use it almost exclusively to rip (cut various lumber to length), the other table saw is a portable model and I keep it set up with a stacked dado set 3/4" wide, using it primarily to cut the dado's in the End Bars.

I also have a router table I use for cutting foundationless profiles on frame Top Bars and for certain locking miter joints and a few other special cuts I can get using various bits.

I have a band saw to cut frame components with the least amount of waste (good wood turned into sawdust).

And various portable drills, jig saws, circular saws, and etc.

I could likely produce suitable components using just the table saw(s) and band saw, but I certainly appreciate the router and router table as part of my necessary assemblage.


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## beekeeper120 (Jul 30, 2011)

Mr. Clemens,

When you say you stacked the dado blades..you mean like put multiple blades on the table saw?


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

beekeeper120 said:


> When you say you stacked the dado blades..you mean like put multiple blades on the table saw?


Dado blades are multiple blades all next to each other on the same arbor, however, it would not be a good plan to use multiple "standard" tablesaw blades on the same arbor. They will not stack properly. Buy a purpose made dado set. More info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dado_set


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

With the equipment noted and experience level inferred wouldn't it be a good thing to start with the basics of building boxes, tops, and bottoms...and leave the frames alone for now? Frustration at this point with making frames (which I see as being much more complex than building the rest of the equipment) might put a damper on things.

Just thinking with a newbee's mind here. 

Bk120, Dado blades come in sets of several blades. To get the varied widths of cuts you add or take away blades. Check to be sure the dado set you get will work with your table saw.

Best wishes beekeeper120,
Ed


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Frames are indeed somewhat more fiddly than boxes, but are not expensive to make. I use a 2x6 and plane it down to thickness (1 3/8 or 1 1/4") for the end bars and make the top bars by cutting into the appropriate sizes as is. Instructions (sort of) in the "make it yourself" section.

I would learn to do boxes first, there's enough frustration in getting a box joint jig to work, then once you are familiar with your dado set (and have had it sharpened and cutting all the blades to the same height -- the reason for spending money on a good one to start with, all the inexpensive ones are either dull, uneven, or both) you can learn to cut dados on end grain.

WARNING: YOU MUST REMOVE ALL BLADE SHIELDS TO CUT END GRAIN DADOS. USE GREAT CAUTION.

Featherboards are a great idea, so it keeping you hands WELL clear of the blade. 

That said, 'tis not terribly difficult work, just fiddly. I tend to set up a big run so that I can cut a pile of the same bits all at once -- that is to say, cut six or eight 19" sections of 2x6, cut the sloped end cut on all of them, both sides, cut them all 1 1/16" wide (keep the 7/8 leftover for narrow bars if you want), cut them in half to make two bars, then set up the dado and cut all of the deep cuts across both ends, then set up for the side cuts and do that, then switch back and cut the wedge. That way they all come out the same, and you will only lose one or two if you do something wrong.

Ditto for end bars -- if you use the standard sizing, you can cut the planed down 2x6 into blocks of the appropriate length, cut the wide dado, then the bottom ones, etc.

Peter


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## beekeeper120 (Jul 30, 2011)

thx for these responses...Im gonna start with just making boxes and getting used to this equipment. Now I understand about getting quality blades. Which blades do you all recommend?


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## Fishman43 (Sep 26, 2011)

I like my Freud dado set. It is probably 15 years old and still makes a nice cut (with the occational sharpening). I have found that spending the money up front to buy a nice blade (at a specialty wood working store not HD or Lowes) will save you in frustration and replacing the cheap blades as they don't seem to hold an edge very long. As with most things, you get what you pay for. I want to try one of these, but the budget department hasn't seen fit to release the funds to me yet, she already says I have too many tools and hobbies 

http://www.google.com/products/cata...X&ei=YUqMT7DiFsbOgAeqwtH4Cg&ved=0CJQBEPMCMAM#


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Freud is good, so are any of the expensive top of the line sets. For lower priced ones, plan to pay around $100 if you expect them to cut without tearing things up, and find a good saw sharpening service to have them done properly (runs around $30 locally). Very unlikely anything less than a $200 set will cut a flat bottom out of the box, and really cheap ones, like the first one I bought, don't cut at all -- the backs of the teeth were higher than the cutting edge, and I've used sharper butter knives, I kid you not. Had to sharpen it by hand with a diamond hone to get it to cut through a zero clearance insert, it was smoking.

Avoid any plain steel ones, stick with carbide tipped saws. Steel ones cut beautifully until you get too slow on the feed or in a bind and get them hot, at which point they dull instantly and cause endless trouble.

For regular blades, any carbide tipped "combination" blade from Lowes or HD will work just fine -- I'm using a DeWalt at the moment. Look for a thin kerf blade, takes less HP and cuts a thinner kerf for less waste. You won't be sawing hardwoods for bee equipment (in fact, for frames you WANT "whitewood" -- yellow pine splits when nailed), so super performance isn't necessary. Yeah, a $200 silent teflon coated blade is nice, but you won't see very much difference in performance in pine. You also don't need an 80 tooth blade for crosscutting, it doesn't have to be super smooth and the wood is soft.

Beware used lumber -- most carbide saws will cheerfully cut nails once, but you sure will notice how badly it dulls them! 

One final thing you need, absolutely, is a good square with a 45 degree side. You MUST set the blade square to the table and the slide square to the blade when cutting joints of any kind, else you get crooked joints and out of shape boxes. Never depend on the markings on the saw or slide to be anywhere near correct, use the square. Don't drop it, ever. Take particular care with tilting arbor table saws, and make sure you don't have side play in the arbor before cutting dado joints. Wobbly arbors make crooked or wavy dados. I have the luxury of an ancient tilt-top Delta table saw. Angled cuts are a pain, but with the table square to the blade anything else is pure joy. Probably 70 years old and the arbor runs dead true with zero play.

Peter


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

There are typically two kinds of dado blades, wobble and stacked. Wobble dado blades use a type of cam, an offset device to induce a single or double blade set to wobble varying amounts to produce the desired width of cut. Stacked dado blades are more straight-forward, using combinations (stacks) of blades, chippers, and spacers to adjust the width of the cut.


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## Mtn. Bee (Nov 10, 2009)

Like Mr Clemens I use 2 table saws as well. It sure speeds up the process compared to switching back and forth between saw blades and dados on one saw, but a person definitely needs to have a shop with some room (hopefully someday).
I would not worry about it running a few hives, but when you start getting into larger numbers of bee equip. it sure comes in handy!


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## Mr. C (Oct 27, 2011)

If your on a budget check Craig's List for a decent table saw. It's absolutely amazing how many people have one sitting in their garage taking up space. Last time I looked I found like 10-20 of them for under 100 bucks. You of course often get what you pay for, but a little research can get you a real nice deal, particularly on table saws because it seems a gazillion people think they have to have one and then realize most people don't need one (or of course they upgrade). I'm sorely tempted to buy a second one once I'm finished rearranging my shop... of course a band saw would be nice...

As far as tools I personally use (there's a bunch of ways to do everything of course)

Boxes - Miter saw (jsut faster to cut lengths) table saw (and dado blade), but I use a skill saw for Hogan style handholds and a router&jig to put in dovetail splines and jigsaw/random orbit sander to finish (excessive amount of work, but pretty)
Bottom Boards and tops- table saw and router/jig again
add a stapler for screen and solid inserts
Ventilated inner covers same as above + drill for vent holes
Frames -I use a planer for end bar and top bar width and thickness, table saw to cut grooves and cut endbar thicknesses (wish I had a bandsaw here... that's next purchase) and jointer to cut taper (carefully)

Table Saw could do most of it, but I have to justify tool purchases to my wife somehow.


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## dave beeman (Sep 2, 2009)

Don't bee afraid to make frames for your hives. This is how we learn to do things. I first started making frames and I should say that it was not pretty. It did not take long to get the hang of it. Don't think that one tool is better that another. We all have our favorite ways of doing our work. The main thing to remember is "SAFETY". I prefer to used my tools with all of my fingers. Yes there are some things that cannot be done with the shields in place and we have to be careful.
I enjoy reading the replies as I do learn new things. I must say that I never thought of using my planer to size 2 bys. This old dog is still learning new tricks. THANKS ALOT GENTELMEN!:applause:


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## Honeypeach (Mar 15, 2012)

After reading through most of this thread, I can say that I now feel about making woodenware the way I feel about sports: There's a whole world of problems out there that I don't have to pay ANY attention to! I buy pre-cut parts and assemble them with an air stapler, wire pliers, hammer, and nails; all that saved time can go to appreciating my bees ... and other parts of life.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I don’t know how I could do it without a table saw, everything else I could cheap. My old craftsman table saw gets a lot of use and after reading these threads I picked up a Grizzly with a 3 hp 220 volt motor off of Craig’s list. Yeah it was $400 but the blade does not stop like the old one does (but flings the wood across the garage at high speeds LOL). I also got a dato set that was recommended last Christmas here by Oshlun (the Vermont American set only burned its way through). Now I am a two saw family! I could have purchased a lot of parts for what I am into the equipment for but what would I do with my ADD/OCD? Just spin around in circles.


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## BeeCurious (Aug 7, 2007)

Honeypeach said:


> After reading through most of this thread, I can say that I now feel about making woodenware the way I feel about sports: There's a whole world of problems out there that I don't have to pay ANY attention to! I buy pre-cut parts and assemble them with an air stapler, wire pliers, hammer, and nails; all that saved time can go to appreciating my bees ... and other parts of life.


I agree. I build accessories and rabbet jointed nuc boxes but I don't have the time, patience, or desire to do box joints, and frames? Forget it! If someone isn't familiar with the basics I'm not sure they will find pleasure in building frames and boxes. 

Especially when one of the objectives is to have tighter joints than purchased frames/boxes.


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## shadow-cw (Jul 7, 2011)

Hi all,
I don't have any pics to post but I'm doing hand cut through dovetails on my boxes. There alot simpler than they appear. Mine are not perfect but I'm still learning. Here's a video that helped me learn how to do them, the guy has it broken down in 4 or 5 videos:


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Well, my budget is usually very tight and it was tight when I went to purchase my band saw. I purchased a Craftsman Model 21400, 1/3 horsepower, 10" band saw. I have now had it for about four years, and it has served me fairly well. Until recently I had only used traditional carbon steel blades. And a few months ago I had to replace the band saw tires (they hold the blade on the wheels and provide the friction to drive the blade). Anyway, the carbon steel blades were okay to resaw frame components from 2x4 stock, but the cuts were rough, often the blades would wander, creating inaccurate curved surfaces, and adjusting tension (to increase beam strength) to correct this, often resulted in early blade failure. Yesterday, Saturday, 12 May 2012, I obtained a Lenox Tri-Master carbide toothed blade of 1/2" width (widest my Craftsman saw will accommodate). It's amazing, cuts are smooth, quick, and very accurate - no more wavy or inaccurate cuts or rough surfaces on frame components. It was also fairly easy to install and adjust the new blade, tensioning it for good beam strength (keeping the blade straight while cutting). I used less tension than I had with the carbon steel blades and yet had enough beam strength to easily cut my frame parts more smoothly and accurately than I was ever able to with carbon steel blades, and word is that these blades can be tightened much tighter still, with no concern that it will cause their early failure - so this blade should have good lasting power (time will tell).


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

I suspect that many people think their band saws are no good, particularly the "budget" ones from say Harbor Freight, when the problem is the blade.

I don't know why there are so many junk blades out there, or why manufacturers put junk blades on an expensive saw, but you can "rescue" a band saw with a good blade. A poorly cutting blade requires excessive pressure to cut, causing all the blade wander and rough cutting, while a super sharp blade simply slices off the wood at very low pressure, leaving the blade straght, the cut straight, and uses much less power.

I'm in the market for one (wasting too much wood making frames with a table saw) and plan to get Lennox blade when I do. I've heard that the WoodSlicer blades are good too, but welded carbide tooth is the way to go. Expensive to start out, but they will last years, if not decades, in soft wood like pine!

Peter


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

I'm glad you guys have the $$$ for a $135+ bandsaw blade, lol...I have to budget for my cheap $10 "Bosch" blades from Lowes. Anywise, on that note, I was searching for bandsaw blades last night and found that sawblade.com seems to have some quality bandsaw blades for FAR less than other suppliers (including triple-chip carbide tipped blades sized for my 14" Harbour Freight saw @ under $80). I plan to order a couple of their $13 and $20 blades for my saw, and see if they solve my "staple problem," 'cuz having to replace my blade every time I miss a staple's getting old, as is having the blade wander around & "follow the grain" no matter how much tension I put on it inch:


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

How many $20 blades does it take to buy a $135 blade, and how often do you need to replace them? The carbides will dull eventually sawing staples (I've dulled a couple table saw blades on nails, too), but they, unlike carbon steel blades, can be re-sharpened a time or two, and should last you, staples aside, for several years of daily use in hardwoods before you need to sharpen them.

As always, you either pay up front or pay as you go....

If you don't want to swing the whole amount for a carbide tooth blade, at least get a bi-metallic blade with HSS teeth. A staple will dull them much more than a carbide, but they are vastly better than carbon steel.

Peter


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## MichaelShantz (May 9, 2010)

I have an old Delta bandsaw and the best blade I have found for nice straight ripping is a 3/4 inch wide (keeps it from wandering), 3 teeth per inch (I can actually resharpen it with a Dremel grinder), bimetal (? or high carbon steel) blade. I resharpened that blade 3 or 4 times before it finally cracked and broke. Maybe I should try a carbide tipped blade and see if it is worth paying 5+ times more.


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## robherc (Mar 17, 2012)

psfred said:


> If you don't want to swing the whole amount for a carbide tooth blade, at least get a bi-metallic blade with HSS teeth.


Absolutely agreed. I just phoned the supplier & will be trying out a Cobalt-steel bi-metal variable-tooth-pitch blade (the $20 blade, $29 after S&H actually) that's engineered for cutting ferrous & titanium alloys for my next blade. I'm hoping that one will last until I can talk my wife into letting me invest in the $80 triple-chip carbide blade that, in wood with only occasional staples, should last me until the saw falls apart (at least, being that it's intended for cutting monel & exotic alloys, it had better last forever in pine) 

But yes, the general moral of the story is don't buy bandsaw blades from a hardware store; they may be less $$$ per blade than ordering from somewhere that knows what they're selling, but you're getting a blade that'll make ANY bandsaw look bad (a lesson that I've now learned the hard way)

@MichaelShantz yes, the 1/2" and thicker blades help tremendously with reducing creep, but I'm finding that the blade material, and craftsmanship are also hugely important considerations.


So, now that we have the blades sorted, has anyone tried the "roller guides" or "cool blocks" in their saw? If so, how much _actual_ improvement have you noticed from using them? I'm gonna go out & say that ANYTHING has to work better than the little plastic blocks that came with my HFT saw, but are the roller-guides really enough better to justify spending $130+ on them?


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## Nantom670 (Jul 29, 2011)

beekeeper120 said:


> Mr. Clemens,
> 
> When you say you stacked the dado blades..you mean like put multiple blades on the table saw?


I just looked under south Florida craigslist and there is a very nice looking Craftsman 10" table saw that looks almost new for $180. I would not be surprised that they would not take 40 or $50 less for it. It also is set up on wheels. It will probably have a 10" blade, if I buy a new one, I always buy an 8", cheaper and you rarely ever need the larger blade. I have two used craftsmans that I have used for 15 yrs or more. I also have a used 12" bandsaw that I bought off my local craigslist for $100. Just buy what you need at first. Good used items will last a long time. You can find a lot of good example videos on utube for most cuts. And on a lot of bee videos also.
I bought a good used Freud dado set for $45.00 delivered to my house off ebay.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Cool blocks work fine. The original steel blocks work fine most of the time, but they screech. 

Bearings work fine, but you cannot use them with narrow blades as they cannot be moved back enough to keep the bearing off the teeth if you do lots of scroll work. Probably not well enough to justify the price, thought.

Cool blocks are great for those narrow blades as the blade will simply cut a slot in the block, allowing it to support the blade right up to the edge. I put them on the saw I borrowed a few years ago, and will use them on any saw I buy (I'm shopping).

You may also want to true up the tires on your saw by holding either a very sharp lathe chisel or a block of wood with sandpaper on it so that the high spots are removed. Cuts way down on vibration and hence kerf width and improves the surface of the cut, to say nothing of reducing stress on the blade for out of round wheels.

Peter


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

Well, now, with a Lenox Tri-Master Carbide toothed band saw blade, my cheap ol' Craftsman band saw performs like a champ. Cuts frame parts from cheap two-by lumber, accurately, smoothly, and quick, I believe that this blade is certainly worth the money. Not only do I get nice frame parts, made the way I want them, but I waste less wood by using a band saw and the carbide toothed blade helps the machine to work easier and hopefully this will increase its useful life.

So, now that I had my band saw upgraded, I started shopping for an air compressor (after all, I need to keep the band saw clean by blowing out the fine dust from the motor and nooks and crannies - don't I?). My brother (an aircraft mechanic by trade and an amateur auto mechanic, at home) has one of those monster, vertical tank compressor's with a 5 H.P. 240 volt motor. His cost more than $800, but my budget wasn't going to ever see that happen. I shopped and shopped and shopped some more, I finally settled on a $55, 1 gallon unit available at my local Walmart store, then I obtained fittings to connect it, together with a 5 gallon portable air tank (which I already had) - for increased storage capacity of compressed air and less frequent recharges from the compressor (the compressor runs less frequently). Then, using a pistol grip air nozzle it readily blew the dust from all the internal workings of my band saw and other power tools.

Uh oh, now I have a compressed air system, so I decided I needed to try assembling frame components with pneumatically driven staples. So, today I stopped by my local Harbor Freight store and picked up one of their $20, 18 gauge, narrow crown, pneumatic staple/brad nailers. I then drove across the street to the Lowe's store and purchased a box of 5000, Hitachi 1-1/4" x 1/4" staples. As soon as I arrived home I began using the stapler to finish assembling a batch of frames that had been languishing on my workbench.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

On the selection of "gadgets" available to make a given joint. There are many ways to skin a cat but in the end it is a skinned cat. First look at the various joints and how they are rated. For example a finger joint is rated better than a dado joint but is also more expensive in tools to make. Decide where the balance point is for you between quality and cost.

Here is a none complete comparison.

A dado joint can be made with nothing more than a router and the appropriate bit using a scrap piece of wood as a fence and you can even rig up a decent router table from scrap wood.

A finger joint can be done on a router but I don't recommend it. For it you should really use a table saw and dado blade. the cost is going to run you $100 at least just for the decent blade and if you don't own a table saw thing more like 6 to 7 hundred dollars.

A dado joint is not really rated much better than a but joint while a finger joint is one of the best joints for forming a box there is. I am talking a properly made finger joint that is. A dove tail woudl be about the only joint better. So basically if you want the best you are still going to pay for it. making your own may be cheaper, it is not free. Cheaper even may be questionable. Wooden ware can be purchased fairly cheaply.


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Daniel Y said:


> On the selection of "gadgets" available to make a given joint. There are many ways to skin a cat but in the end it is a skinned cat. First look at the various joints and how they are rated. For example a finger joint is rated better than a dado joint but is also more expensive in tools to make. Decide where the balance point is for you between quality and cost.
> 
> Here is a none complete comparison.
> 
> ...


Actually, you don't even need a dado blade to make a dado joint. You can make two cuts, one on the face and one on the edge. Often it's quicker than setting up the dado blade if you're just running a few.


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## Zonker (Mar 10, 2010)

A cheap Japanese styled saw from lowes ($21) that does both rip and cross cuts, a coping saw ($8), a chisel smaller than the size you want your box joint to be ($13), a tape measure ($10), and a tri-square ($10) and you can make all your bee boxes, top, bottoms, inner lids, etc. Not complicated just a little sweaty. No risk of losing a finger or your hearing. Won't permanently take up the middle of your garage floor. and ... the bragging rights are pretty much unlimited. 

The real trick is gathering free scrap wood.


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## psisk (Jul 21, 2011)

Some of just enjoy making our stuff. I know I do. I am looking next at making finger joint boxes. I now use a rabbit joint and it not only is a very positive seal but it rarely makes a box that doesnt fit up square, unlike some box joints I have bought that had to be squared up. 

psisk


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## Zonker (Mar 10, 2010)

Yeah, that's it exactly - enjoy making. half the fun of beekeeping


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

beekeeper120 - I'm gonna be the party poop.

I just cleaned up a leaky cyprus migratory top, made another from scrap plywood, covered both with aluminum flashing and made a bottom from scrap tongue & groove flooring. I have a cheap Skil table saw, 7" craftsman chop saw, the usual drills, tape measure, etc and used a rubber mallet to fold down the aluminum. By the time I got everything out, together and put away, it became an all afternoon affair. IMHO, if you only making standard langs hives in small quantities, unless you're time isn't needed elsewhere and you're tools are free, an online order is much more effective. Top bar hives are another story.


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