# Queens and Packages: Slow release vs. releasing her right away



## clarekate (Mar 13, 2016)

So, I did a really, really stupid thing today (previous post detailing my freak out after it) and removed the corks from the wrong end of the queen cages when installing my two packages . I went to my local club's beekeeping school, read multiple books, watched the YouTube videos, but still was nervous in the moment and screwed up. One queen I was able to plop right down into the hive. The other flew off and was lost for several hours, but by some miracle I found her in a clump of bees on the ground near my hive and was able to plop her down into her respective hive (caught her in a container and misted her with light syrup so she wouldn't fly again before I could replace the feeder and covers). I have queen excluders between my bottom boards and deeps.

So, now my concern, is how much am a disadvantage are my new package colonies at with immediately released queens vs. what I intended to do with a slow release while they ate through the candy to release her from her cage? :s I felt pretty discouraged when I messed up within the first 10 minutes as a beekeepers (although I anticipate learning through many more mistakes as the season continues!), so I'm just really worried that I still messed up even though the queens ended up in the right place.

Is there anything else I could be doing to boost their chances of success? As I said, I've got queen excluders above the bottom boards, entrance reducers in (the kind that are about 4 fingers-width, mine didn't have a smaller option), a hive top feeder with 1:1 syrup and Honey B Healthy, two different nearby water sources.

Appreciate any advice, any reassurances, and also any blunt to the point statements about expectations/outcomes related to my mistakes today.

You guys at Beesource are the best and I am so thankful to have these forums as a resource


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## Green Tractor (Mar 31, 2016)

I think your biggest risk is that the queens and workers may not be a team yet. Packages are formed by dumping random bees in a box, and slamming a queen cage in. Everyone says 3-4 days is the time it takes to associate well. In my case, the bees were so fresh in the package that the provider told me to not even pop the candy cork for another 3 days after I got them. 

The problem is if they don't know the queen, they whack her. Without eggs, there is no backup. I had a backup plan for a dead queen during my installs: find a queen within 24 hours, or combine the hive with one that is queenright. 

If they kill your queen, you will probably need to pick one or the other option.


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## clarekate (Mar 13, 2016)

Thank you for your response. I believe my local supplier will have replacement queens available if needed. So do you recommend leaving the hives alone tomorrow and then checking them Monday? And if the queens are still there and alive on Monday I'm probably in the clear?

This is my first year as a beekeeper and so my first and only two hives. The packages came from out of that and arrived to my local supplier yesterday and then I picked them up this morning. So while in the cage in the package, the package bees were exposed to the queen for at least three days. I know that's probably not enough, but at least it was hopefully a bit of a start.



Green Tractor said:


> I think your biggest risk is that the queens and workers may not be a team yet. Packages are formed by dumping random bees in a box, and slamming a queen cage in. Everyone says 3-4 days is the time it takes to associate well. In my case, the bees were so fresh in the package that the provider told me to not even pop the candy cork for another 3 days after I got them.
> 
> The problem is if they don't know the queen, they whack her. Without eggs, there is no backup. I had a backup plan for a dead queen during my installs: find a queen within 24 hours, or combine the hive with one that is queenright.
> 
> If they kill your queen, you will probably need to pick one or the other option.


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## Green Tractor (Mar 31, 2016)

I'm a first year keep as well. My advice is to leave it alone, unless you think you'll be able to spot the queen. I have yet to play Where's Waldo because I just don't care. If they draw out comb you should see eggs soon after. If you see eggs, you have no issues. It'll probably take a week.

My SOP is to let them figure things out. For instance, I have a hive that no longer has eggs (at least the last two times I checked) but lots of larva and queen cells on the frames. Thinking maybe they are doing an emergency reboot. I just noticed that in the space of a week egg laying stopped and supercedure cells were all over 2-3 frames. They hadn't capped any of those cells yet, but tomorrow (a week later) I _could_ peek and maybe find out but hesitate because looking won't change anything I am doing. The only reason I to go in there is to learn something new, which seems reasonable. Point is, I generally go hands-off other than feeding them and figuring out when to add a box. I have to talk myself into bugging the bugs.

So my approach in your situation would be to leave them alone other than keeping them on syrup, and check them in a week. If you find eggs, walk away because there is nothing left for you to do. If not, wait for someone who knows how to handle the next step to chime in. I won't talk anything other than what I've done and how it worked for me. YMMV.

Good luck.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I would leave them alone for at least a week, even 10 days, except to refill the 1:1 syrup.
You have done everything that can be done at this time.
Chances are good that the queens were in the packages long enough for the bees to
know the queen.
If you fool with them now it will only increase the chances of non acceptance not diminish them.
They have a lot of work to do that you can not help them with.
Relax.

Watch them coming and going from the outside the hive for 10 days, that's fun too.


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

If the package has been together for a few days they're already acquainted; either way, don't sweat the load until the bees let you know there is a problem. Are the queens mated or virgins; if they're virgins they will need more time then Monday to mate and start laying; I leave the hives alone for around 10 days after I know a virgin has been introduced.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Eikel>>I've never heard of package bees purposefully sold with caged virgin queens.
But maybe there are.


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## BeeHoosier (Feb 21, 2016)

There are some people who actually recommend letting the queen out of the cage right away. I have heard people on both sides. I thought it was required that you let the queen out slowly via the candy end, but some people purposely (and successfully) let the caged queen out right away when installing a package. Since you can't undo what you have already done (and many people would choose direct release anyhow) I would leave it alone and monitor it. I don't think you should be peeking in on them too often at first, just let them get acquainted further and monitor from there.


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## Nugget Shooter (Mar 28, 2016)

I am also new this year and some of the best advise I see over and over is to be patient and observant I was and the bugs rewarded me with everything on the up and up at first inspection 10 days after install.... I figured that as long as their behavior is what my tons of research said was "normal" all is good and I don't fuss with them except normal inspections. Likely all is well for you.... Wait and see?


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## clarekate (Mar 13, 2016)

I'm just inpatient to check in, hehe. We checked in after only a few days in the club bee yard, but that was likely just due to the timing of the meeting after the install.

So, general consensus is now that both queens are in, open to add syrup but don't check ANYTHING below the feeder for 10 days? Seems so long, but I'm an anxious newbie!. Would it be catastrophe to wait that long if the queen is killed or not laying? Or risk vs benefit to leave them be?


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## missybee (Sep 6, 2014)

Try to think about the queen cage when you pulled it out. Was it covered with bees that were hanging on for dear life, hard to get off (a), or just some bees that came off with a soft shake, rub etc (b). 

If (a) they are trying to get in and kill her they did not know her smell yet, those would be workers. if (b) they had accepted her and those were nurse bees feeding her. 

That will help you, if you recall, what the acceptance of the queen was.


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## clarekate (Mar 13, 2016)

This was how the first queen cage looked (see picture), the one that flew off who I found several hours later. I don't have a pick of the second one, the one that kind of got plopped right in, but I was able to just brush them off gently.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Leave them alone. Just chill. 

You have a pretty good chance they will accept the queens. 

Normally, for a package install I mist the bees lightly with 1/1 syrup that has a few drops of vanilla extract in it. Masks the bees' scent while they clean up. I also very lightly spritz the queen and then directly release her. So far it has worked every time for many packages over the years.

I never ever do that for any other kind of queen introduction.


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## Eikel (Mar 12, 2014)

Clyderoad,
Absolutely agree, a misspeak on my part. I mainly do my own splits, queens and add a few queens each year which directs my attention to the status of the queens; kinda lost focus we were talking about packages. Sorry for any confusion. 

clarekate,
If misery loves company, I released two virgins this morning and have a couple of nucs that raised their own queens that emerged sometime mid week. I'll be waiting with you, only for a different reason.


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## rfgreenwell (Feb 14, 2010)

Based on your other thread, you placed a queen excluder between the brood box and bottom board? Take it out now without doing a deep inspection or in a week or 10 days when you check for eggs. In the future when installing a package I would advise you not to use a QE in that manner.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Good catch, RF. I didn't see that in the original post.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

I would do nothing now because I can't think of anything at this point that would be helpful. Being in the hive would not help and could hurt. Ordinarily, I would want drawn comb in the hive for a quick release. That allows the queen to immediately begin laying eggs which will help her be accepted. I understand that you don't have any. For me, most of beekeeping is using what is available as well as I know to do at the time. Watch the activity of the bees around the hive so that you will learn how they behave when they have a queen as opposed to when they don't. I would check the hives in 7 to 10 days for brood. If one had some and the other didn't, I would share some until you get a new queen. 

There was some mention of having a virgin queen. If you did, you would need to remove the queen excluder. I would not expect that the queens were virgins.

Keeping bees should be fun, so let this play out and enjoy the ride.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

The first question you ask when you pick up a packages is "when where they shaken?". If 3-4 days prior to installation, you can direct release her. We have been doing so since at least the '60s with out issues. Time is money, the sooner she starts laying, the sooner you have new bees to replace the ones of unknown age that came in the package.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

If I'm hiving packages I'll pull the plug and press in a bit of granulated honey. It prevents that queen flying away issue and allows the package to settle down before she walks free.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Ian said:


> If I'm hiving packages I'll pull the plug and press in a bit of granulated honey. It prevents that queen flying away issue and allows the package to settle down before she walks free.


I use a mini marshmallow to plug the hole. Been told the marshmallow plug gives about a 4 hour release time. 

Think it is better for queen to be released into a settled down hive.

I also think it is best to keep hive closed for 10 days, so queen is accepted and laying good before doing an inspection.


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## Green Tractor (Mar 31, 2016)

clarekate said:


> I'm just inpatient to check in, hehe. We checked in after only a few days in the club bee yard, but that was likely just due to the timing of the meeting after the install.
> 
> So, general consensus is now that both queens are in, open to add syrup but don't check ANYTHING below the feeder for 10 days? Seems so long, but I'm an anxious newbie!. Would it be catastrophe to wait that long if the queen is killed or not laying? Or risk vs benefit to leave them be?


I sympathize. Went into my problem hive today to see if they really did lose their queen. They did, based on all the capped queen cells sitting on the frames. OK, bee math says they'll have a new boss by about next weekend, and she won't be doing anything useful for another week or two after that. So other than feed, I am staying out of that box however curious things may get.


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## clarekate (Mar 13, 2016)

To those suggesting I remove the queen excluder between the bottom board and the deep, this is what my club recommended doing. I believe the queens that came with my package are mated and so shouldn't need to leave to mate.

Is there another reason I should remove it?


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Releasing her right away = 50 % survival = waste of money

Slow release 100 % success.

Your choice.

Don't believe stuff that you read in the internet. It is your money, time and effort that gets burned.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

You don't need a QE on a mated queen.
Mistakes have already been made. We all screwed up once in a while and
learn from our mistakes. I did and many more!
Lucky for you the second hive will be your supporting hive. Wait another 2-3
days to see if there is a living queen in there. If not then get another mated queen asap.
In beekeeping you have to learn to be patience otherwise many more mistakes will be made
in the future. There are some issues that need time so you just cannot push it to hope for the
best outcome. Queen release is a time consuming situation to let the worker bees know the queen
better. It is like having a new room mate in college. You need to give them time to adjust first.
After the acceptance then you can inspect all you want. For now you have to learn to be a patience new beekeeper!


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Releasing her right away = 50 % survival = waste of money
>Slow release 100 % success.

I wish. My observation: Direct release, 75%. Slow release 75%.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Wow, we must be doing something wrong. I bet we have direct released over 1000 queens in the last 10 years(not counting the decades before that), and can not remember EVER loosing a queen at that time. A few drone layer, yes, but no cases of the bees killing the queen. 

Remove the excluder above the bottom board so the drones can get out.

Crazy Roland


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> I wish. My observation: Direct release, 75%. Slow release 75%.


As with treatment free vs treatment beekeeping. Yeah, right.



Roland said:


> ...


Do you talk about packages as the topic? I direct release all the time. My own(!) queens that are in full lay. But packages are a different sort of matter, isn't it? Do really dump a package into a hive and throw a queen at them?


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> >Releasing her right away = 50 % survival = waste of money
> >Slow release 100 % success.
> 
> I wish. My observation: Direct release, 75%. Slow release 75%.


1/4 of package queens don't make it? I have a hard time believing commercial guys would accept that loss rate.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Do really dump a package into a hive and throw a queen at them?


The queen has been with the package (typically) for a number of days. I would pull the cork, slow her down with a bit of honey and check the cages the next day to remove them. Nearly 100% acceptance.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I find it with better queen acceptance at the on set of Autumn.
Summer queens get balled a lot. Then again maybe my bees are not
as gentle as Roland's and others. No direct release here. Gradual intro is the key!
Let us know when you do the next hive inspection.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Ian said:


> The queen has been with the package (typically) for a number of days.


Ok, that's different from what you get here. Here in Europe packages are send without the queen, just with queen pheromone (bee boost). Queens are send seperately. Bees are days without queen, but seem to be melted into a swarm or hive just by the pheromones. They sting foreign queens if you release them right away.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> Ok, that's different from what you get here. Here in Europe packages are send without the queen, just with queen pheromone (bee boost). Queens are send seperately. Bees are days without queen, but seem to be melted into a swarm or hive just by the pheromones. They sting foreign queens if you release them right away.


Yes that's completely different. By shipping with the queen, these packages get going the day they are hived. A few extra queens come along with the shipment to cover deads.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Maybe I should clarify. I have had 1% kill the queen on a direct release or leaving her in the cage. But those cases had a virgin queen. The 75% success is because 25% of the time the bees move next door and abandon the queen with or without a cage. This seems to be related to the quality of the queens.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

For newbees with brand new equipment and their first package install, I strongly recommend using the standard candy release and letting the bees slowly release the queen. 3 days in the life of the colony is nothing, besides newbees are not working towards the same objectives as the commercial guys. A botched direct release is a big deal for a newbee. I think this is one of those things that really confounds newbees and you see posts nearly every spring about package installs that went bad, including how their direct released queen took flight, or the package absconded because of the bare frames, etc. 

For experienced guys, release at will. That said, I've never lost a package queen to a candy release (unless there was another queen in the package). That's not to say I haven't had bad experiences with some packages...


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## Colobee (May 15, 2014)

I do slow release. 3-4 days max. I vaguely recall having lost a couple over the years. It may be unfair to count laying worker & hot hives failures, but I still consider them failures. Even then my success rate is over 99%. I attribute a fair portion of that to the quality of the queens.

It seems that if 1 in 4 is failing, something in the process must be wrong.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>It seems that if 1 in 4 is failing, something in the process must be wrong.

Yea. The part where I buy a package...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Yea. The part where I buy a package...

Actually that did not used to be true, so that's not exactly the problem. It's only recently become the problem. I bought my first two packages in 1975 and they went perfect as did every package I bought from then until about 2002 and that's when the quality started downhill until it reached the current level. But since the quality has fallen so much I no longer see the point. Perhaps some of you are getting better packages than I've been getting, but from what people tell me, that's not the case... then we have the problem of getting the ones that did well through the winter...


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

We mus REALLY be doing something wrong. in post #37, MB wrote:

...... 25% of the time the bees move next door and abandon the queen with or without a cage.

I have never seen that happen in recent years, but can remember hearing of issues in the '60s that where addressed with a change of methods. 

Maybe you should pay me to help you with your next book?

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I find drifting an issue if hiving is done during flight weather. 
Hive the packages in the evening or during a cold spell if your so lucky to get one while hiving. It will force the bees to stick to their boxes and imprint on it, which will virtually eliminate drifting issues


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## clarekate (Mar 13, 2016)

Thanks for all the responses! Hoping and praying that everything is good when I do my first inspection on Monday! If anything I definitely learned a lot from my mistakes and appreciate your feedback so I can keep learning as I go.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Which ever date you do your inspection make sure
you have plenty of time to do a thorough inspection.
Without a laying queen the hive will dwindle away fast. 
Let us know its result.


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## clarekate (Mar 13, 2016)

Update: Did my first full inspection today and found one hive to be queenless and one looking great and saw the queen. Looking into getting a replacement ASAP and crossing my fingers that I can get that hive to turn around, but very relieved that at least one of my hives is doing well


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