# Small Cell Size- Natural? Less Varroa?



## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

You are going to get answers both ways.

I use it and it seems to help, I have
20 regressed and without treatment for
2 1/2 years.

I believe enough in it to purchase 4 cases
of the HSC fully drawn small cell at $5 a
frame.

[ October 29, 2006, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: Sundance ]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/small-cell/ 

Regards
Dennis


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Pardon me if I am being pedantic, but I take issue with the term 'natural size foundation'. I would contend that there can be no such thing, as bees will build cells of different sizes according to the time of year and, presumably, local conditions.

Small cell foundation, sure, but not 'natural'.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Sorry guys all I have is questions.

{I believe enough in it to purchase 4 cases
of the HSC fully drawn small cell at $5 a
frame.}

Why is small cell foundation so much more expensive? Is it the cost of injection mold vs amount sold and will it likely decrease in price if it catches on.

How is it the industry so overlooks this aspect in light of the results that those mentioned on Dennis's website have experianced. 

What I've read from Dennis, Michael and Joe W. just makes sense to me. What doesn't is it hasn't moved along further in the industry. MB caught my attention with this last year and after reading Dennis's work it wouldn't take much to sell me. The logistics of the regression seem insurmountable both cost and labor wise in a mid size operation.

Are serious studies being done to support this possible solution? When it is this going to become commercially viable and who's writing the instruction book for those of us looking for solutions that don't spark debate with Jim









[ October 29, 2006, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: Joel ]


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--I take issue with the term 'natural size foundation'. I would contend that there can be no such thing, as bees will build cells of different sizes according to the time of year and, presumably, local conditions.--(BB)

Natural cell size is a range that bees tend to build cells depending on environmental conditions. 

Natural Cell Sizes Referenced Here:
http://www.beesource.com/pov/lusby/therm_map.htm 

A foundation size that falls within the natural cell sizes found in a particular environment would be considered a natural size for bees in that environment, as opposed to sizes above or below which would be considered unnatural. A colony of bees, while expanding may build a variation of cell sizes within this natural cell size range (for workers). 

That the construction of cell sizes may change during the year is a merely a reflection of the colony needs and environmental influences found in that environment 'at that particular time', and does not suggest in any way that the final configuration of the nest is meant to facilitate seasonal cluster movement into specific sizes of cells.

Cells built for honey storage are generally in the upper natural cell size range due to it being more cost effective to build larger cells. Cells built smaller for brood rearing are generally to the smaller sizes of the natural range.

The seasonal cell size designed to facilitate seasonal cluster movement theory does not fit well when you consider that a colony may take several years to construct a nest in a void to its full size. Cells built as the theory suggest for fall brood rearing during the first year, would likely end up at the mid section of the nest after construction is completed and the colony reaches maturity during the second or third season. 

Best Wishes

[ October 29, 2006, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Pcolar ]


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Joel,

HSC is not foundation
it's complete combs
I'm sure it's hard to produce, that's why it's expensive
here's a few pic's of my messing around with it

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/hsc/ 

for me the idea is to use it as a way to skip the regression process
get bee's established on it and they're forced to be "small cell" bee's
then insert frames of SC foundation between the HSC and they should handle it fine
SC foundation only costs a tad more than normal
I view this as a shortcut to get from here to there
as you said, the reports from Michael, Dennis, Joe and others makes one think there's something there


Dave

[ October 29, 2006, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## tony350i (Jul 29, 2005)

I used this Permacomb wax dipping


http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h319/tony350i/83073de2.jpg


Tony


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Tony,

your pictures were the inspiration for what I did
I tried doing it with screws like you did but had trouble with the screws wanting to wander off to one side or the other
I switched to using a polyurethane glue
that worked pretty well

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Pardon me if I am being pedantic, but I take issue with the term 'natural size foundation'. I would contend that there can be no such thing, as bees will build cells of different sizes according to the time of year and, presumably, local conditions.

True. But if the bees are building 4.4mm to 5.2mm brood comb with most of the core around 4.85mm. Then I'd have to say that 4.9mm is closer than 5.4mm. But I prefer natural comb anyway.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm

The fully drawn is a quick way to get regressed. I can't say for sure why the small cell foundation is more expensive execpt for rumors that they sort the wax more carefully to keep it more chemically clean. That and the lower demand.


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Thanks Dave, where are you purchasing this and how much/how long has it been in use. This is the 1st small cell that looks like it could be used in a migratory operation successfully. 

Tony, is the foundation you are using for 3/4 size that the bees then finish. If I don't regress bees first will they build larger cells below the break.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Joel,

I got it to late in the year to use it
I'm just getting ready for spring
Here's a thread where people discuss it

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000900 

You get it here

http://www.honeysupercell.com/sblog/ 

It's only available in deeps and I wanted mediums so I cut it up and put it in medium frames

Dave

[ October 30, 2006, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: drobbins ]


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

HSC works best on package bees from my
understanding. You spray down the frames
with sugar/HBH, add a feeder, screen off
all possible escapes, and install the 
package and queen.

After a several days you remove the screen.


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## tony350i (Jul 29, 2005)

>Tony, is the foundation you are using for 3/4 size that the bees then finish. If I don't regress bees first will they build larger cells below the break.

do you mean on the Permacomb in this pic, it is ready drawn comb i brought it like it and dipped in hot wax to make the cell size smaller and jump a year in regressing my bees
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h319/tony350i/83073de2.jpg

Mine build drone cell/storage cells there and i cut it out.


The size of frames i use are different from yours
that is why i have a gap at the bottom of the frame.

I dont know if other small cell beekeepers have notice, nucs made up from smaller bees seem to draw out the 4.9mm as 4.9 and hardly any drone cell.
I have put empty frames between drawn frames that do work but I find that with established hives I get more differences with the cell sizes, than you get with nucs, I suspect my established hives havent got as much small cell as I hope and the reason for this is I kept stealing brood frames to make the nucs up, and Maybe this explains the higher mite drops on the 2 parent hives I started with at the beginning off the year.

Ive used starter strips off 4.9mm and this works good and they seem to drawn the frame out quicker then full sheets but again on established hives you get drones cell popup here and there, I need as much small cell as I can get.

I know drones are a good thing but not for me at the moment, I am going to have a go at circler splits next year and with brought queens and only full frames off 4.9mm foundation so they build up quicker,well i hope they do.

I am in my first year off regression and about 70% there and I am looking forward to not having to worry about v.mites, I think I have a year or 2 to go.

There is some beekeepers on here with some great info and has helped me alot.


Tony


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## tony350i (Jul 29, 2005)

Thanks Dave 

When I was fitting the p/c to my frames I used a 3mm drill bit to pilot hole the wood and p/c before I screwed it in, it is a bit time consuming but the jump start you get with smaller bees is well worth it.

Tony


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Joe,

>The Â‘seasonal cell size designed to facilitate seasonal cluster movement theoryÂ’ does not fit well when you consider that a colony may take several years to construct a nest in a void to its full size....

Re-examine that feral hive photo you shared with me a number of years ago. The colony was in a wall between two studs and was about 7'tall. Where was the worker cell sized comb? Was it interspersed down the length of the comb? Were there several large area separated by storage comb down the length of the comb?

That's not what I saw or measured. The majority of the worker sized comb was at the very bottom of the cavity! There was a small amount of small cell sized comb about halfway down the length, and a smattering of larger cell size worker brood about , but almost all of the worker sized comb, above that found at the bottom of the cavity, was large cell size or larger! 

My tbh experience indicates the a normal sized cluster of bees easily draws out the broodnest in a single season. The honey storage areas may expand, but the actual volume of the broodnest remains relatively constant. And so does the amount of small cell core area.

I've posted a photo that shows my analysis of the comb at: 

http://bwrangler.litarium.com/natural-comb/ 

It's a large file at about 600K to show the cell size detail, so give it some time to download. Your browser may resize it so that the entire picture is viewed on your monitor. Be sure to view it at it's full scale size.

Notice how the structure of the comb changes when moving from the honey storage area to the broodnest area(the darker comb). The cell size and orientation is much more regular in the broodnest area. That area isn't just a downward extension of vertical comb building. It's a new area, with a different kind of structure.

It's interesting to think about how this feral hive built that broodnest. Did all the comb start at the top? Check out the three combs on the right side of the photo. They started, not at the top of the cavity, but about halfway down, off the back and the side of the cavity!

Regards
Dennis

[ October 31, 2006, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: D. Murrell ]


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Bruce, you bought 12 cases???! Talk to me about the quality, strength. I have quite a few plastic frames with broken ears.

Our spring nucs are 3 frames of brood, 1 honey and 1 foundation. Why couldn't I put these in the middle of the winter cluster (while south) when there is no brood (now) and let the queen start laying them in Dec/Jan? Am I missing something about the regression process? 

I'd be looking at about $6.00 frame with shipping X 1800 frames to replace over the next 2 yrs.=$10,800 + our planned increase over the next 5 yrs. Definately an expensive process. Glad we run singles! I guess I'd have to run a yard for a couple of years and get some solid comparisons before making the whole plunge.

Sorry Tony, didn't se your were from UK. I feel like a rookie beekeeper on this thread! What you are saying is the permacomb dipped in wax comprised small cell size?

I appreciate everyones' patience, I'm having some difficulty grasping some aspects of the concept but would, due to MB & B-wrangler- who hooked me on this idea last year, like to move in this direction.


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## balhanapi (Aug 22, 2006)

Dennis it asks for a username and a password...


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

By golly I did buy a full pallet of the
rascals.

I am leaning toward switching to 1 1/2
story ten frame after seeing Dave's good
results cutting the deep in half.

The frames are very sturdy and heavy. Much
tougher than Pierco.

You can certainly add SC to the brood nest.
Thats what I did with the wax and will be
doing with HSC.

The package idea is nice because you're 
forcing them onto the HSC.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Guys,

I got the link fixed.

Sorry
Dennis


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## Scot Mc Pherson (Oct 12, 2001)

I believe there is alot more to the "bees build cells according to seasonal needs" than meets the eye. When a new swarm builds a nest, they only have certain resources, and so only build a starter nest, and so the variation in cell sizes or very dramatic in that first year. Take a mature colony however chock full of bees and shake it into an empty hive, and yes you will have the variation in cell sizes, however because the bees have more resources (particularly size of cluster) the "starter nest" is MUCH bigger with MUCH more core brood cells in the smaller range. It is because of this observation which mimic's Dennis's observations, but broadens the scope of the observation that bees will build as much "small cell" as they can. Of course this does depend on the season because when a strong honey flow is on, the bees are more apt to pool their resources into honey storage no matter the deficiency of their brood nest.

Because of this, we find as small cell beekeepers that we manage a colony by opening the nest at key times of the year. Notably during the early spring buildup when the bees are focused on brood rearing and not the storage of honey. It can also be accomplished as a 2nd choice time of year in parts of autumn when the bees are actively brooding for winter.

I use foundationless systems, and I am a small cell beekeeper. You don't need foundation to do it, foundation just makes things "more uniform". For some people especially larger commercial outfits, interchangeability is an important aspect of beekeeping and so foundation can be an important tool. However, I do not find it indespensible, I just think it makes ones job easier in controling interchangeability.


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## tony350i (Jul 29, 2005)

Sorry Tony, didn't se your were from UK. I feel like a rookie beekeeper on this thread! What you are saying is the permacomb dipped in wax comprised small cell size?

No. Im the rookie beekeeper









Yes the wax on the in side of the p/c cells does make it smaller and those bees that emerge from these cells are the ones I tried to target with the 4.9 foundation and empty frames.

If you do go the PermaComb route and wax dip, when you are letting the wax dry on the comb make sure the cells are pointing down so the wax runs to the cell opening not the bottom of the cell.

Tony


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--It's interesting to think about how this feral hive built that broodnest. Did all the comb start at the top? Check out the three combs on the right side of the photo. They started, not at the top of the cavity, but about halfway down, off the back and the side of the cavity!--(DM)

Hi Dennis,

Yes, they started halfway down and to the side at a location of close proximity to the original entrance. There are circumstances that may have caused the bees to upbuild new comb above. The homeowner stated that her son blocked the hole one year with a golf ball for a season or two, causing the bees to begin using an entrance at the top of the stud wall void. But I dont think it negates the fact that the bees choose to start construction near the entrance which was located near the center of the void, its just another of the many environmental influences at play that may have affected nest construction. 

My opinion is that looking at the many environmental influences such as varying sizes of voids and varying entrances, and how they affect comb construction. It would be very difficult to apply findings from bees building comb in a TBH to all comb construction. Your findings, although fascinating are specific to how a colony builds combs in a TBH, starting comb construction at the top of a void. And I doubt this information can be accurately applied to a nest construction occurring in a natural elongated type void where a colony may tend to start comb construction within proximity to the entrance or near the center of the void.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>By golly I did buy a full pallet of the
rascals.

I've bought 550 of HSC so far, I have no idea how many PC, but enough for 100 hives with supers.

>I am leaning toward switching to 1 1/2
story ten frame after seeing Dave's good
results cutting the deep in half.

I am making up 50 one and a halves next spring. Full deeps with ten frames of HSC and one medium above with nine PC and an excluder above that.

>The frames are very sturdy and heavy. Much
tougher than Pierco.

They are super tough. The fork lift that pierced the pallet did only minor damage to the frames.

>I'd be looking at about $6.00 frame with shipping X 1800 frames to replace over the next 2 yrs.=$10,800 + our planned increase over the next 5 yrs. Definately an expensive process. 

It is not as expensive as you think when you buy quantities, call for a quote.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Joe,

I've always wondered how the bees would build a broodnest in a tall, vertical cavity. Initially, I was going to do the first comb test in a stack of empty Lang boxes. But I'd been fascinated with tbhs since the '70s. So, I built one instead of using the Langs.

I hoped that my tbh results would have spurred others to do a vertical test. A couple of beesource guys volunteered. They started the projects, but I never heard back from them after that. 

So, I've got a vertical test planned for next season. I have a variety of different types of tbhs and will standardize on a single design. So, I'll shake a couple of them in a empty Lang hive and see what happens.

Regards
Dennis
Thinking I don't have enough time to check out all the effects, of all those variables, in my lifetime. But it doesn't really matter, because my beekeeping is just the way I want it.


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## MichaelW (Jun 1, 2005)

I found it interesting this spring when I supered a hive with starter strips and did not bait the box wit drawn comb. They, eventually, started building their comb from the bottom bar and working up.


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## Frank Shinji (Jun 10, 2006)

I wonder, if enough people started using SC that the varroa wouldn't shorten it's maturation time, or enter cells earlier. I'm sure there's not enough pressure for that type of selection now just because I bet it will be a less sturdy varroa on all other accounts. Just be careful what you wish for. SC may turn out to be just another crutch. I like the idea of SC, it's very clever. But if everyone uses it,(unlikely the way it looks now) it could become another control method of the past. If everyone did suddenly use SC I would love to be wrong about this.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--I wonder, if enough people started using SC that the varroa wouldn't shorten it's maturation time, or enter cells earlier.--FS)

This is a good question.
But from talking with the experienced small cellers and comparing to what I have seen in 6 years of my experience. Contrary to popular belief, the suggested shortened maturation metamorphosis time of the honeybee on small cell does NOT play a significant role in varroa suppression. The main force for varroa suppression seems to be the same mode of action evolved in varroas natural host Apis cerana, which is the grooming of varroa and removal of infested brood (reviewed in A cerana by Buchler 1994). 

--I'm sure there's not enough pressure for that type of selection now just because I bet it will be a less sturdy varroa on all other accounts. Just be careful what you wish for. SC may turn out to be just another crutch.--(FS) 

Unlike all the other crutches that have been tried and failed. Small cell is different, in that small cell seems to promote the same balanced host-parasite relationship that has evolved between Varroa and its natural host, Apis cerana, in Asia. So there is a precedent already exiting in nature for these natural varroa suppression characteristics. A crutch is something that the beekeeper is doing for the bees, but the effects of small cell cause the bees to do for themselves, which is essential for long term stability of a species. This effectively negates any attempts to categories small cell as a crutch, for the bees do for themselves. 

A. cerana has two behavioral defenses that maintain the numbers of mites within tolerable limits -- grooming and removal (reviewed in Buchler 1994). These same traits are observed on small cell bees described as chewing out of infected pupa and the smaller sized cells serving to decrease the attractibility of worker cells, causing the varroa to remain in the phoretic stage longer than the typical 7 days. As time in the phoretic stage increases, this increases so does the chance that the varroa will be groomed off. Any varroa that do invade small cell worker cells are often found to be non-reproducing mites, same as observed in varroas natural host A cerana.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Joe

is this the paper you refer to?

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/docs/buchler.pdf

Dave


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

Hi Dave,

Can't get your link to work


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Joe

do you get an error message or what?
it works from here

Dave


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It worked for me.


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

I can look at the log files and see someone left the ".pdf" off the end
I bet that's it

Dave


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--do you get an error message or what?
it works from here

I just get a blank page.

I could google it if you would have the title next to the links.

Maybe I don't have the correct version of pdf reader. ?


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Joe

here's the abstract 

ABSTRACT
Biichler, R., Drescher, W. and Tornier, I., 1992. Grooming behaviour ofApis cerana, Apis mellifera
and Apis dorsata and its effect on the parasitic mites Varroa jacobsoni and Tropilaelaps clareae.
Exp. Appl. Acarol., 16: 313-319.
One Apis mellifera and one Apis cerana observation hive were used to test the response to individually
introduced Varroajacobsoni mites. Within 60 s, 88.6% of the involved cerana worker bees (n = 44)
showed auto-grooming behaviour. Within 5 min, allo-grooming behaviour, involving up to four nestmates,
was observed in 33.3% of the infested bees. Successful mite removal was observed in 75% of
the not-prematurely discontinued observations (n = 36 ); 32% of the mites removed were caught with
the mandibles.
For mellifera auto-grooming behaviour was observed in most cases but delayed in comparison to
cerana, and allo-grooming behaviour was rarely observed. Within 5 min, 48% of the mites in notprematurely
discontinued observations (n = 25 ) were removed, but none of the mites was caught with
the mandibles.
For Apis dorsata auto-grooming behaviour in response to the infestation with Tropilaelaps clareae
and Varroa mites is reported for the first time. Varroa was removed at a higher rate than Tropilaelaps.
The higher survival chance of Tropilaelaps seems to be due to differences in mite behaviour and the
preference for certain parts of the bee-body.


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## buckbee (Dec 2, 2004)

Dennis,
I'm definitely up for a vertical hive test next season. I have to set up a publicly-viewable observation hive on an organic farm and vertical seems to make sense.

I have an idea that I want to develop, but it needs pictures to explain properly. Think about this, though - how would it be if it were possible to set up a vertical hive in sections, such that it would be possible to remove sections from the TOP and replace enpties at the BOTTOM? This would be a VERTICAL, CONTINUOUS PROCESS hive, that would enable the operator to harvest honey with practically no disturbance to the bees. 

Like I say, this is under development, but I think I have the basic design more or less right. When I can do the pictures, I will explain further.


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## BWrangler (Aug 14, 2002)

Hi Buckbee,

Ian Ramsey, has discussed such a system. I've lost the original link to his article. It could be in the Apis UK Newsletter, as Ian has written many articles there. But here's a link that includes the article. It's a neat concept. I'd like to try it.

http://www.pcela.co.yu/ian_pure_simple1.htm

Regards
Dennis


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## Radar (Sep 4, 2006)

Have you seen this site with the links provided it includes about six or seven versions of hive on the same principle (vertical), it also solves the problem of lifting these hives to increase the volume from below.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fruche-warre.levillage.org%2FLa%2520ruche%2520%25E9cologique.htm&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools 

I am in the process of evaluating the design, any comments would be welcome, especially in relation to putting frames on each level or allowing the bees to build one long comb right from the top then cutting through with wire
which could get messy.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

and here -

http://www.beesource.com/bee-l/biobeefiles/ian/index.htm


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## sierrabees (Jul 7, 2006)

<I wonder, if enough people started using SC that the varroa wouldn't shorten it's maturation time, or enter cells earlier.>

As long as we are working with living things we will have to deal with adaptation. So far for the past 10 thousand years or more humans have been able to adapt fast enough to keep ahead of the game. We will just have to adapt our beekeeping faster than the varroa adapts to our attempts to stay ahead of it. It's a game called survival. So far it's pretty close to a tied game.


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## summersetretrievers (Mar 4, 2006)

http://www.honeysupercell.com/sblog/static.php?page=static061013-204258
It says here that they have Honey super cel 6 1/4 inch frame size and then a prewaxed black frame. 
Cindy


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## drobbins (Jun 1, 2005)

Cindy

unfortunately that's 6 mm cell size for honey supers
hopefully if the 4.9 mm stuff is popular enough they'll make it in a medium too

Dave


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## jjgbee (Oct 12, 2006)

I am experimenting with a Africanized hive. They will build small cell if allowed, but I put them on old large cell combs. They stored a reasonable amount of honey and after 11 months, I have no mites. Next spring, I will give them starter strip and see what they do. They are not as agressive as some African stock I have worked with.


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