# Combining The Flow Hive with the Az Hive



## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

adding az frame spacers to the hives thursday.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

You've built a great experiment there. I've often wondered how flow frames could be used in other ways. Why are the wooden deep frames upside down? 

Adam


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## NorthMaine (Oct 27, 2016)

I saw the frames upside down and assumed he did it because the top bar is thicker and the frames are resting on the bottom??? Sure makes them not swappable with a normal hive. 

I cringed when I thought of him pulling a frame out and the tabs on the side of the frames crush all those bees as they slide out sideways from the way they were intended, or at the least push them into the comb/roll the queen. BUT I can't see the back to know if he shaved the tabs off the back of the frame, if he did and relied on the spacer in the back maybe he could get away with it but they would still glue the frames together on the front.


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

they are upside down for the moment. might experiment with them a bit. they will fit right side up once i get the frame spacers in wednesday.


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

the frames are a bit of an animal all their own. they can easily be tabbed off with my table saw if I consider them a problem. would only need to do the rear of them though as the front would pose no threat.


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

Update video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fZ0wJwmshQ&feature=youtu.be Wednesday the frame spacers are coming so decisions will be made about the frame tabs.


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

Thanks Adam. appreciate it.


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

Some update photos....


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

Why put Plywood between the levels?


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

the thinking is to lessen the burr comb or cross comb. might not work but it made sense at the time lol. there is a queen excluder between the levels also.


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

On the Ones I build and sell, I space the rods 5/16 above the lower chamber, and the rod slots are such that they will adjust up if a queen excluder is used.
I have no complaints of Propolis problems, but some do get ladder comb, but its not significant. 
And I rarely get ladder comb in my AZ's that I run


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

interesting Steve. so you have adjustable rods. im only worried about the ladder comb mostly. on the next one I will try with no divider. is your spacing closer with no divider? any pics you can show steve?


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

Also going to build small nucs. possibly up to 5 if I have room


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

yes Closer, But I will have search for a Photo to show this aspect.

My larger concern is with propolis since you are using cut down Lang Frames.

If you are on facebook than you can see this..
Other wise I will have to find another way to get this to you. 
Read the captions on the photos and it should explain the difference between the AZ frames and the Lang. Hopefully you will undrstand why you want to use AZ style frames in a AZ hive 

https://www.facebook.com/Steve4Bees/photos/a.1391106534306318.1073741872.104647639618887/1391106717639633/?type=3&theater


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

the metal spacers should allow for minimal touching against the back wall and side to side. the front also will be spaced evenly.












if i put the frames in upside down would that give me minimal propalising?


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

On the end bars the wings of langstroth frames will nearly if not touch, even using the spacers. 
I just picked up two lang frames, used a spacer to space it apart, and and the wings are within 1/16 of each other, that will get propolized.

If you can trim those wings off than the risk is minimized

you are right they will not touch the body of the hive,

I hope this photo clarifies it


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

ok so I should only need to nip off the rear wings though. the front should be unimportant. never mind the front will have spacers also


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

ahh I see in the photo the spacing.


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

the rear ones you can break open if its glued. its those front ones you will not be able to reach. 
If you dont care about the Concave groove in the top and bottom AZ frames are much easier to make from scratch than Lang frames. I would suggest just making them.


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

yeah, its probably going to be the way to go. i will have to research a true az hive frame. size, dimensions, length.


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

make it fit a Langstroth Deep foundation, you will find it difficult to obtain the Slovenian sized foundation.
And that way you can use the AZ boxes you have already built. just swap out the frames


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

considering not using foundation


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

even without Foundation it makes sense to model frame size on Lang Deep foundation, because 
that way you can use the AZ boxes you have already built. just swap out the frames
And you can use a standard honey extractor.


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

good point. I am looking at some simple az frames right now.looks like its even thickness all around frame. just straight cuts and glue and tack nail.maybe router out the bottom and top for the scoop in the rails that touch.


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

they are all 1 inch wide, 
The end bars are around 5/16 or 3/8 thick
Top and bottom bars are just under 3/4. you may have to adjust this to 5/8 to make it fit your current build


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

appreciate it Steve.


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

glad to see another person doing AZ hives


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

its proving to be a lot of fun. Im trying to apply the Kiss method.. keep it simple stupid, lol. what kind do you build?


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

these are just a few photos of the AZ i have Built, they are my Own design.


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

Some Pics of a sixplex of AZ nucs and a smaller 22 frame AZ


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

bravo Steve, well done man. I just looked at your nucs and I must say they look awesome. your main boxes are single brood chamber with 10 frames? what router bit do you use to hollow out the frames?


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

Steve is this you on youtube? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S53LEDAZv3s&t=4s if so, where did you get the tabs for the frames to make them fit langstroth?


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

response to:
"bravo Steve, well done man. I just looked at your nucs and 
I must say they look awesome. your main boxes are single brood chamber with 10 frames? 
what router bit do you use to hollow out the frames? "

there are 6 five frame nucs in a cabinet the size of one of my 33 frame AZ hives, 
My main hives are three 11 frame wide chambers. you can either run a single chamber Brood nest or a double.

Router bit is 7/8th bullnose, but you can use a 3/4


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

demarini said:


> Steve is this you on youtube? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S53LEDAZv3s&t=4s if so, where did you get the tabs for the frames to make them fit langstroth?


yes that is my 12+3 AZ hive. I import them 200 at a time from Slovenia.


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

thanks.


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

wow, so they sell well then


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

I also use them to build Nucs in my regular lang nuc boxes to populate AZ hives in the region.


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

I really like the nuc boxes, i will be copying that design best I can


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

looking to maybe use an in frame feeder in the hives, thoughts?


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

some update photos






























I added a removable shelf to hold the jars when harvesting from the flow hive


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

I would look at the internal bottle feeders like i make.
The Langstroth FRAME feeders would be difficult to slide in full and to keep balanced.


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

I could incorporate the feeder into the door with removable feeder. its pretty tight to the edge. maybe 3 inches. maybe find a very slim plastic bottle?


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## NorthMaine (Oct 27, 2016)

There is a Russian feeder I like the looks of that would work with these hives. It's made with a square plastic container with a tight fitting, waterproof lid. A hole is cut in the lid and a ladder bolted to the inside of the lid so restricting the bees down a channel and preventing them from access to the whole thing. (I would just make a hardware cloth ladder) It's turned so that the lid goes against the doors and a hole is drilled into the door of the brood chamber to match the hole in the feeder. A couple of turn blocks holds it against the door. Will try to find a link that shows it, but it's in Russian and made for their 'pavilion' hives (that's how google translate translated it), but should work just as well for these.

What I LIKE about it is that there is a hole in the side to allow you to fill the feeder without removing it (just replace the cork afterwards) AND you can take it off without spilling syrup on the floor as you never fill it completely full and when you take it off and turn it to the top the hole will be above the level of the syrup. No more inverting the bottle and making a sticky floor. 

Can't seem to find the video showing how to make one right this moment, but you can see one hanging on the front of the hive at
https://youtu.be/i5AdxhpdnT4?t=156


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

thanks northMaine.






does it look like this?


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## NorthMaine (Oct 27, 2016)

No, but that would work too as long as you have a good ladder to prevent drowning (basically a sealed tube made of hardware cloth that is not too large that they can climb on inside the jug). Since there is only the hole for the bees to access it, you can't fill it while they are still feeding though, but you could cut another hole and cork it up rather easily. After I made my comment above about the inverted soda bottles dripping I thought to myself 'how stupid' I could just invert them over a jar to catch the syrup and not make a mess. I guess too much time spent out in a field not worrying about a floor. 

This year I am going to make one of these trailers you see in the video, probably a 24 or 36 hive model and try it out. I was debating on using AZ style hives inside or this pull out tray style, but am leaning towards the pull out tray style since there is no frame modification (Yes, I know the Russian ones are not sized the same as ours, wouldn't follow their dimensions). I may only go with a 24 hive model to see what the weight ends up being as I want to be able to put one on the flatbed and another on a trailer if it's not too much weight to haul at once. 

Looking at your latest pics, what size hardware cloth are you using on the doors? I hope I am wrong, but it looks too large a hole opening or are you using it just to reinforce a plastic window?


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

yeah the doors all need replacing to smaller cloth. live and learn. I am also looking to expand in to specially modified building just for bees. still looking for specific type of feeder though. with the doors needing rebuilds is a good time to incorporate a feeder into them while building them.


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

Today I built 30 new az frames and the difference was immediate. super easy to pull out and put in. I will no longer worry about any other kind of frames. beveled the top and bottom with a bullnose router bit.


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## steve4bees (Nov 13, 2018)

Glad to Hear about the frames.

The Main reason i have not moved to the large JUG type feeder system, is I have not located a recycled or NEW jug that fits nicely in the rear of the AZ HIve. 
They make a flexible plastic emt conduit for the electrical trade, that i think would make a good tube to use as the entry and exit point for the bees. I could hot glue gun some fiberglass screen over the end and that would be all I need.
Just no suitable low cost jug yet.


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

Steve, it wasnt even a close contest once I built a few az frames and tested them. they are so much smoother and easier to manipulate. i grooved the bottom touching the bar to minimise the propolis buildup also. just ripped a few 2x4s into 1 inch strips and the sides down to 3/4


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## demarini (Sep 11, 2018)

Update video. I ripped out the original az flow combo and rebuilt them. feel a lot better about them now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKaVBcXfsys


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## bomorrow (Feb 12, 2019)

do any of you have updates on the combo AZ/Flow hives and how they work? If you have plans or preferably, hives, for sale, I would be very interested.


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