# Long Absent Bumblebee Returns to Seattle Area In Spite Of Increased Neonicotinoid Use



## mrqb

Good News....Where u suppose Monsanto had them stored for past 10 years???


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## BigDawg

Are you ever going to tell us which pesticide company or lobbying firm you work for BluDiamond?


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## Rader Sidetrack

BigDawg - 
Your Beesource profile says you listed your occupation as "_Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy_".  Looks like you have got something to hide yourself! 

:ws:


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## BigDawg

Right next to the "ghost wheat" that was just found illegally growing in an Oregon field....



mrqb said:


> Good News....Where u suppose Monsanto had them stored for past 10 years???


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## BigDawg

So Rader Sidetrack is your real name huh?

I don't have a thing to hide. I know from many years of being online that marketers, SPAMers, and con artists regularly scan internet forums looking for personal information, so I limit that as much as possible.

The big difference between myself and BlueDiamond is that I actually joined BeeSource to talk about bees. I own bees, I manage bees, I want to learn about bees and share info with others about bees, and I post here about bees a lot.

BlueDiamond on the other hand has NEVER made a SINGLE POST about bees here on BeeSource. Not one. EVERY.SINGLE.ONE of his posts have been about pesticides, and, here's the shocker--all of his posts take a pro-pesticide industry position---this thread is a textbook example. In the internet world, that's called a corporate shill and most forums require that people who are being paid to post identify their affiliations so that everyone is clear about the motivations behind their posts i.e especially if the person has a vested financial interest.



Rader Sidetrack said:


> BigDawg -
> Your Beesource profile says you listed your occupation as "_Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy_".  Looks like you have got something to hide yourself!
> 
> :ws:


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## JClark

BigDawg said:


> So Rader Sidetrack is your real name huh?


I'm guessing his name is Graham since it states that in the footer of his posts.



BigDawg said:


> on the other hand has NEVER made a SINGLE POST about bees here on BeeSource. Not one. EVERY.SINGLE.ONE of his posts have been about pesticides, and, here's the shocker--all of his posts take a pro-pesticide industry position---this thread is a textbook example. In the internet world, that's called a corporate shill and most forums require that people who are being paid to post identify their affiliations so that everyone is clear about the motivations behind their posts i.e especially if the person has a vested financial interest.


This may be true but it still does not negate the story. It is also true that this story really has nothing to do w/ Neonics. Just suggests that us scientists really have no clue what is going on despite how smart we think we are. I, too, joined beesource to talk and learn beekeeping so I generally refrain from trench warfare on speculative subjects such as this.


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## Barry

BigDawg said:


> BlueDiamond on the other hand has NEVER made a SINGLE POST about bees here on BeeSource. Not one. EVERY.SINGLE.ONE of his posts have been about pesticides, and, here's the shocker--all of his posts take a pro-pesticide industry position---this thread is a textbook example. In the internet world, that's called a corporate shill and most forums require that people who are being paid to post identify their affiliations so that everyone is clear about the motivations behind their posts i.e especially if the person has a vested financial interest.


Not this again! I explained to you in a PM that I really don't concern myself with which member backs what position on any given topic. The words members post have to stand on their own merit. BlueDiamond has remained civil in his/her discussion and I take the position that people promoting both sides of an issue give me a better understanding. Why are you so obsessed with who BD is? It won't change one thing about the validity of his/her posts. You remain just as hidden behind your user name. Shall we refer to you as a special interest group shill?


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## Vance G

It is cause to rejoice that the bumble is back.


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## BigDawg

This thread/post has *absolutely nothing* to do with neonics or CCD other than the fact that the OP is a pro-pesticide lobbyist....



Barry said:


> Not this again! I explained to you in a PM that I really don't concern myself with which member backs what position on any given topic. The words members post have to stand on their own merit. BlueDiamond has remained civil in his/her discussion and I take the position that people promoting both sides of an issue give me a better understanding. Why are you so obsessed with who BD is? It won't change one thing about the validity of his/her posts. You remain just as hidden behind your user name. Shall we refer to you as a special interest group shill?


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## Barry

I disagree. It has far more relevance to current topics of discussion than this one:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...-Pests-Develop-Resistance&p=969405#post969405


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## Tenbears

would anyone mind if I used this thread to demonstrate to my students how extremist stand firm on a hard line unwilling to yield a single point. And use innuendo rather than sound facts to discredit those with opposing point of view. all the while hiding behind a moniker.


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## bbrowncods

Tenbears said:


> would anyone mind if I used this thread to demonstrate to my students how extremist stand firm on a hard line unwilling to yield a single point. And use innuendo rather than sound facts to discredit those with opposing point of view. all the while hiding behind a moniker.


That's awesome. Can I quote you over on a weapons forum I frequent? This is child's play compared to their religious thread.


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## jim lyon

I don't buy into the "cyber-stalking" excuse. No one is asking for Social Security numbers, passwords, sensitive personal information or even exact physical addresses if that bothers you and I am not speaking to the many folks on here who use their favorite nickname but make little effort to hide their identity. If you are afraid to put your name on an opinion about about beekeeping then accept the fact that people will always question your motivation and will devalue your posts accordingly.


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## mrqb

Well said Jim. and for the record my name is Mark mrq are my initials the b well everyone should know what thats for.


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## VeggieGardener

jim lyon said:


> I don't buy into the "cyber-stalking" excuse. No one is asking for Social Security numbers, passwords, sensitive personal information or even exact physical addresses if that bothers you and I am not speaking to the many folks on here who use their favorite nickname but make little effort to hide their identity. If you are afraid to put your name on an opinion about about beekeeping then accept the fact that people will always question your motivation and will devalue your posts accordingly.


But Jim do you realize that for some people to put their name on a public forum would be no different than listing their sensitive personal information such as physical address, photos, telephone number, workplace, name of spouse and family members, etc., because that is exactly where a simple Google search of their name would lead to? You seem to view it as simply a matter of fear or courage but sometimes it is actually more a matter of wisdom and discretion, especially seeing how worked up and emotional people can become during discussions on the Internet. I think it is up to the individual to weigh their personal situation and the forum, before deciding for themselves what information to place out on a public website for any and all anonymous viewers to see.


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## JClark

VeggieGardener said:


> But Jim do you realize that for some people to put their name on a public forum would be no different than listing their sensitive personal information such as physical address, photos, telephone number, workplace, name of spouse and family members, etc., because that is exactly where a simple Google search of their name would lead to?


If this is what a google search of your name turns up then you obviously put way too much info in other places. When I google my name I can't find one piece of info about me other than a few pub--if you use the right search terms w/ my name. Of course this may be because I have no facebook page, I don't twitter, text or do anything of the sort (or could be that I am not adept at using google search). This board is as high tech as I get. 

Anyway, not supplying you true name is not the point here. The point is that labeling somebody who disagrees w/ you a shill in the "enemy's" pocket is a characteristic of someone who really is not interested in finding the facts--simply pushing their point of view.


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## ArtSmart

JClark said:


> If this is what a google search of your name turns up then you obviously put way too much info in other places.


 Not necessarily. If I put my name in Google search the first page I get is a tax collector's office with my address on it.



JClark said:


> The point is that labeling somebody who disagrees w/ you a shill in the "enemy's" pocket is a characteristic of someone who really is not interested in finding the facts


 I can't agree with this statement. You are right, the point is not to know what the name of the person is, but what his motives are. I'm, for example a hobby beekeeper and here to learn more. If somebody here to lobby for chemical industry they can plainly admit it, I don't think rules of the forum would exclude them from the discussion.



jim lyon said:


> I don't buy into the "cyber-stalking" excuse.


 Not an excuse. This is reality we live in. People provide way too much information about themselves as it is, and it becomes just a matter of looking it up. For example, if I cross reference BlueDimond's posts with other information available online I get to this link where he describes his line of work.


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## Rader Sidetrack

BigDawg said:


> What I DO have a problem with is people with *vested financial interests* in the subject matter of their posts not disclosing said financial interests and/or pretending to be a "regular joe" making posts to a forum when in fact you actually work for the industry/company/business that you always post so favorably about.


This is a _beekeeping _forum. Many beekeepers sell honey/bees/queens/hives etc. *Every *one of those Beesource members has a "_*vested financial interest in the subject matter"*_!

So, if you were running Beesource, you are going to REQUIRE disclosure of those financial interests in order to become a Beesource member?

:ws:

 :lpf:











Might as well just require posting of every member's IRS 1040 form! That would certainly result in some _discussion_! :lookout:


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## VeggieGardener

JClark said:


> If this is what a google search of your name turns up then you obviously put way too much info in other places. When I google my name I can't find one piece of info about me other than a few pub--if you use the right search terms w/ my name. Of course this may be because I have no facebook page, I don't twitter, text or do anything of the sort (or could be that I am not adept at using google search). This board is as high tech as I get.


Lot's of personal information that individuals themselves didn't post finds its way onto the Net and once it is out there you have no control over it or capability to remove it even if you wanted to.


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## JClark

VeggieGardener said:


> Lot's of personal information that individuals themselves didn't post finds its way onto the Net and once it is out there you have no control over it or capability to remove it even if you wanted to.


May be the case--hasn't happened to me yet that I can tell. That's some scary stuff though and I think we, as a society, are going down a very bad road--just look at all the current big gov abuses going on. We are becoming the very thing our ancestors immigrated here to escape.


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## jim lyon

ArtSmart said:


> Not an excuse. This is reality we live in. People provide way too much information about themselves as it is, and it becomes just a matter of looking it up. For example, if I cross reference BlueDimond's posts with other information available online I get to this link where he describes his line of work.


Perhaps I should have more clearly made my point which is that ones privacy is only compromised by that which you choose to reveal about yourself. Again, no one is asking for passwords, SS #'s, or even e-mail addresses if you so choose. I fail to see how opinions about beekeeping are something for which there is any need for privacy. Part of the life of any bee researcher is publicizing the results of their research, why is giving ones own opinion about beekeeping any different? It would seem to be a requirement if one expects to be taken seriously and just as importantly it would surely lead to more civil discussion.


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## VeggieGardener

jim lyon said:


> Perhaps I should have more clearly made my point which is that ones privacy is only compromised by that which you choose to reveal about yourself. Again, no one is asking for passwords, SS #'s, or even e-mail addresses if you so choose. I fail to see how opinions about beekeeping are something for which there is any need for privacy. Part of the life of any bee researcher is publicizing the results of their research, why is giving ones own opinion about beekeeping any different? It would seem to be a requirement if one expects to be taken seriously and just as importantly it would surely lead to more civil discussion.


One's privacy is also compromised by information that others reveal such as in ArtSmart's example with the tax collector. A decision to not post your name on a public forum doesn't warrant "that people will always question your motivation and will devalue your posts" any more than someone posting a name ensures that it is a real one and that they deserve to be "taken seriously." I don't believe that most nicknames used here are meant to hide an identity, and many of them aren't even as anonymous as they appear.


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## WLC

The reappearance of Bombus occidentalis (western bumble bee) is good news.

However, we should also be concerned about the increase in the population of Bombus impatiens (common eastern bumble bee).

Much of the increase of Bombus impatiens is likely due to its use as the primary greenhouse pollinator here in the U.S. .

There is no requirement to keep them screened inside greenhouses.

The biggest threat to beekeepers comes from a recent study showing that Bombus impatiens is a host for DWV, meaning that DWV can replicate in the common eastern bumble bee.

So, the eastern bumble bee is increasing and a pathogen reservoir, while the western bumble bee is critically endangered.

I'm not sure how neonics are involved with the western bumble bee's population crash. That could be from Nosema bombi.


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## Barry

VeggieGardener said:


> But Jim do you realize that for some people to put their name on a public forum would be no different than listing their sensitive personal information such as physical address, photos, telephone number, workplace, name of spouse and family members, etc., because that is exactly where a simple Google search of their name would lead to?


It led me right to your website where pretty much all this info is listed! If you already have it out there, I don't understand your point. :scratch:


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## VeggieGardener

Barry said:


> It led me right to your website where pretty much all this info is listed! If you already have it out there, I don't understand your point. :scratch:


My point had nothing to do with my own personal information, some of which I knowingly choose to put out there in a way that is readily accessible, but not everyone on here does and to expect others to attach their name to this forum in order to be taken seriously isn't fair or required here, which is the point I was trying to make in response to Jim's comments and expectations.

You as an administrator needed go no further than my name, email, and other info that I provided when I registered as a member here to be led right to info that is listed on the Internet about me or any other member of this forum, and therefore should have a responsibility to respect privacy to an even greater degree.


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## jim lyon

Veggiegardner: A google search led me to your website as well. No name, no e-mail, necessary. My compliments, its very well done. Barry certainly need not have compromised any information you gave him privately to access it. The point, though, is that the great majority of folks on here make little if any attempt to conceal their identities whether they use a screen name different than their own or not and many on here even show their own web sites as part of their personal information. If there is something in your life you wish to keep private I would suggest you not post on the internet.... anywhere. I suppose anytime I mention that I feed, or treat my bees or even use an excluder I risk inciting someone to find out something more about what other beekeeping misadventure I might be up to but I guess thats just a chance I am willing to take.


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## jbeshearse

I will always place more reliance on posts from individuals who use their names. But that is just me. A google of my username here will lead you right to me as my name is very rare. Using your real name helps keep you honest and a bit more friendly in your responses, hence it keeps you more responsible as to what you post or not. There are those that should never use their name as they are to quick to respond and get themselves into trouble or worse. there are valid reason not to, but if managed correctly, it is not a problem.


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## VeggieGardener

jim lyon said:


> Veggiegardner: A google search led me to your website as well. No name, no e-mail, necessary. My compliments, its very well done. Barry certainly need not have compromised any information you gave him privately to access it. The point, though, is that the great majority of folks on here make little if any attempt to conceal their identities whether they use a screen name different than their own or not and many on here even show their own web sites as part of their personal information. If there is something in your life you wish to keep private I would suggest you not post on the internet.... anywhere. I suppose anytime I mention that I feed, or treat my bees or even use an excluder I risk inciting someone to find out something more about what other beekeeping misadventure I might be up to but I guess thats just a chance I am willing to take.


Thanks Jim, and I knew from the day one that I was doing nothing to attempt to conceal my identity with the user name and info that I posted here, that was never my intent and also what I meant when I mentioned that most of the screen names that people use around here are not really anonymous. I just recognize how much info is available on the net and that not everyone is comfortable using their name, in fact most don't use their actual names. I wasn't saying that Barry compromised any private info but if it were me I would avoid sharing anything private in his position. I agree that anyone concerned with their privacy shouldn't post info on the Internet but it really shouldn't be that way and we shouldn't have to take "chances" in order to express our opinions with one another on the Internet.


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## ArtSmart

jim lyon said:


> If there is something in your life you wish to keep private I would suggest you not post on the internet.... anywhere.


 If only it was that simple. You can not divulge information about yourself but it doesn't grantee your privacy. Jim - can I call you Jim? If you are really a Jim. At this point you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Unless you provide a copy of your driver's license with your fingerprints I have no way of knowing if you are REALLY Jim Lyons. And guess what? I couldn't care less! You can be Kris Kringle for all I care. I pay attention to the information provided, to the experience, to the soundness of the advice, to how balanced your point of view is. Now, if somebody wants to beat himself in the chest and push his point based on his degrees or published works or how many credit hours they've got in a local college then you would probably need to post your name and a link to you facebook page, so that everybody can realize who they are dealing with. I can enjoy reading Tom Sawyer based on the merit of the book regardless of whether I know that Mark Twain is not really author's real name. One needs to know when to concede a point, especially when the point doesn't really matter in the first place. It promotes healthy discussion and hopefully both sides learn something new. Your style of discussion seem to follow Dr. Seuss's (which by the way wasn't his real name either) character South-Going Zax: 

"For I live by a rule
That I learned as a boy back in South-Going School.
Never budge! That's my rule. Never budge in the least!
Not an inch to the west! Not an inch to the east!
I'll stay here, not budging! I can and I will
If it makes you and me and the whole world stand still!"

Well that's not much of a discussion.


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## jim lyon

Art: Check out Jim Lyon, Herrick, SD. You will quite easily see there is such a person and that he even has a phone number you can call if you need verification. Yes I am in fact a Jim, but I also answer to Jimmy, Honey, Dad, Grampa, Jimbo and occasionally to Hey You. Don't make this sinister or complicated Art (is it Art?) cause it's really not. I am pretty sure I speak for the great majority on here who are pretty open about their identities and I think their postings reflect that as well.


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## JClark

WLC said:


> The biggest threat to beekeepers comes from a recent study showing that Bombus impatiens is a host for DWV, meaning that DWV can replicate in the common eastern bumble bee.


Not to change the subject but can _Varroa destructor_ jump hosts or are they specific to honey bees? If they can't jump hosts then _Bombus impatiens_ as a DWV reservoir is less of a concern. Guess I can google this.


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## ArtSmart

jim lyon said:


> Art: Check out Jim Lyon, Herrick, SD.


 You missed my point. I wasn't trying to prove to you that you are not a Jim. However, since you mentioned it, the fact that there is really a Jim Lyon with an adress and a phone number doesn't really prove that that person is he who's been using jim lyon nickname on this forum, wouldn't you agree? If I tell you that my real name is Oprah Winfrey, who does have an address and a phone number, would you believe me? But again, that is not my point. My point is - it doesn't matter.



jim lyon said:


> I am pretty sure I speak for the great majority on here...


 You are mistaken - you speak for yourself. People can agree or disagree with your opinion, but then again, people are fickle that way.


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## JClark

Barry said:


> It led me right to your website where pretty much all this info is listed! If you already have it out there, I don't understand your point. :scratch:


That was my point though. Can't complain when you are already putting it out there.

That being said, though, I agree w/ veggiegardener that using a moniker instead of your real name does not diminish the integrity of your post until you've proven otherwise--by relentlessly pushing one point of view and attacking those who disagree w/ character attacks. Given the trash on other boards out there this board, as Jim points out, is remarkably civil and there is a certain level of trust that can be given to mosts posts here that does not exist on other boards (ever look at a stock msg board?)

What it boils down to is that the level of trust one can have in a stranger in our society is quickly degrading and I think this is the biggest threat we face. Whether the internet contributes to this or not is another debate.


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## jim lyon

You missed my point Art. I've been on Beesource for a number of years. There are few interact with that I haven't long since discerned their identities and I think that's a good thing. After all what we are doing here is nothing more than ""taking the floor" in a large public beekeeping (most of the time) discussion. Think large townhall style meeting. Live in a cocoon if you feel you must but for me I will freely add my name to my opinion.


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## ArtSmart

jim lyon said:


> Live in a cocoon if you feel you must but for me I will freely add my name to my opinion.


_I’ll stay here, not budging! I can and I will
If it makes you and me and the whole world stand still!”
Well...
Of course the world didn’t stand still. The world grew.
In a couple of years, the new highway came through
And they built it right over those two stubborn Zax
And left them there, standing unbudged in
their tracks._

By all means. I never said you shouldn't.


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## Barry

You're well versed in Dr. Seuss. Almost as if you're around preschool kids all day, there in Lutz, Florida.


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## ArtSmart

Reading it now to the third kid growing up, I can almost quote the hole thing in my sleep  Surprisingly, there are some pearls of wisdom hidden there


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## gwpeter911

Bumbles of many varieties seemed to have made a surprising comeback this spring on our orchard, including B. Impatiens. Found dozens of little nests in old birdhouses, under flowerpots, and small underground holes. Learned quite a bit about the plight of the bumblebee and IDing types of bumbles here:

"You can also take direct action to reduce the threat from neonicotinoids: Check your own garage or garden shed for neonicotinoid products, and stop using them. For more information, see the brochure "Protecting Bees from Neonicotinoid Insecticides in Your Garden" and the recent Wings article "Neonicotinoids in Your Garden." Both are available at www.xerces.org/pesticides. 

Very informative nonprofit site on bees, dragonflies and other struggling pollinators. They are looking for volunteers to count and ID. Am I off or on topic?:shhhh:


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