# I got a theory on splits:



## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Is every swarm guaranteed to be caught?


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Dividing and making splits is a controlled procedure. Catching a swarm is done purely by chance. They both result in acquiring a new colony. Whats that old saying..."a bee in the hand is worth 2 in the bush".....


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

How successful are swarm traps? Can anyone report on the success rate they have had with them in catching their own swarms?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Well I don't want to speak for Michael Bush but I think he said or has written on his site that he puts a bait hive underneath a tree that has a swarm in it and it just goes right in 9 times out of 10. That is 90% and I don't think splits are much better than that and this way here the split occurs naturally under no stress.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

Acebird said:


> he puts a bait hive underneath a tree that has a swarm in it and it just goes right in 9 times out of 10. That is 90% and I don't think splits are much better than that and this way here the split occurs naturally under no stress.


That may be 90% for the times that he is aware of the swarm, but how many swarms go unnoticed?

I am asking about keeping a swarm trap in your yard in anticipation of a swarm.


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## Riskybizz (Mar 12, 2010)

Ace,

One important thing you fail to recognize. You must first locate the swarm to be able to retrieve it. I'm sure you understand that they could easily swarm when your not around to witness the event. So how are you going to retrieve them if you don't know where they are? Have you considered another hobby?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

I've caught a lot of swarms from my hives over the years, but you have to be there and ready to go when it happens. Nothing like a hived swarm. However, the flip side is, the hive the swarm came from can often lag behind. Thus, I'm not sure you gain over a split in the end.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well built and managed splits should approach 100% success. Unless a queen or queen cell fails, which you can fix, why wouldn't they be.

A split is a controled swarm. One which should keep the original colony from swarming and not hurt it as much as an actual swarm often does, cutting honey production quite a bit.

I have had times when my splits set up to raise thewir own queens have approached 90% success.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

sqkcrk said:


> A split is a controled swarm.


Yes and no. It mimics a swarm in action, but lacks in the internal drive bees have when they swarm. There is a vigor that a swarm has that a split doesn't.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

It is an old saying meaning that one can do to a colony what happens naturally w/out loosing bees and production, or something close to that. Sometimes there aren't enuf adult bees taken when a split is made.

I agree that a split isn't as vigorous as a swarm is, being as a swarm is primed to make wax and build comb, but I have splits into nuc boxes which build plenty of comb on natural nectar flows.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Riskybizz said:


> Dividing and making splits is a controlled procedure.


It is not controlled unless you know what you are doing and follow the procedure to a tee, and there are several procedures to follow not just one. As a newbie there is a whole lot of hoping and praying that you didn't do something wrong or at the wrong time. If you let nature pick out the best egg and take care of all the timing issues you can't do anything wrong. When the colony decides to swarm you just got to encourage it to pick a home in your apiary or a box that you can move to your apiary. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe when a colony swarms it lights in a tree close by and then the scouts go searching. The process of finding a good location can take 3 days to a week.
According to "Honeybee Democracy" if your swarm box is the best choice the bees will take it. That kinda supports what Michael Bush said.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Is every split guaranteed to work?


There are no gaurentees, only probabilities.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i've seen them leave in less than an hour. i like the idea of keeping a swarm trap prepared. Michael Bush also advocates keeping the broodnest open to avoid swarms.


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## libhart (Apr 22, 2010)

Acebird said:


> if your swarm box is the best choice the bees will take it.


This is true but much easier on an island with only your boxes as potential homes. Your box at your apiary is now competing against every hollow tree, every nook and crany in every house, etc, in a very large area.

I posted to a thread last night that asked about spring splits. One method I've just recently read is to deliberately keep the bees crowded in the spring, don't add supers when the flow comes on. When the bees sense the flow is good and they're strong they'll make swarm cells. If you're checking them enough you'll spot the cells and can make the split then. You've then let the bees make a queen in a very planned way under good conditions. I read often that these queens are viewed as superior for that reason. I may try this method in the spring.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Riskybizz said:


> Ace,
> 
> So how are you going to retrieve them if you don't know where they are? Have you considered another hobby?


I am going to records the frequency of the queens buzz and plug that into my I phone. When she takes off I can get the GPS coordinates off my phone where she lands ... "there must be an app for that".

I been in a few hobbies but none was this fascinating and easy to do.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Last year I picked up about ( from memory) 6 swarms using trap hives - this year none. This year I got I think 7 swarms from about 10 ( I know of) and they are doing well.
In my case, swarms take off when it is warm and humid. Most leave just before lunch. I found that if I leave them till about 3 or 4 pm before I box them I have a very high success rate. I do it all - set trap hives, do splits ( early in the season as part of management) and collect swarms.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> i've seen them leave in less than an hour.


Where do they go?


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## 2Tall (Apr 18, 2010)

I had nuc size swarm traps up this year around my yard hoping for the best my hives threw 8 swarms that I saw and none moved in in 24 hours . That was as long as I wanted to wait so I caught them, not sure if they were too small for them or what .This year I plan to put them all 3-4 hundrend yards away to see if it matters.
I have very little sucess making nuc size splits and leaving them in my home yard even when I shake 2-3 frames of nurse bees in , it seems a though they dont swith to defend mode before my other hives find them and begin to take what they want.I did cathch a small after swarm less than 2 frames of bees, my other himes have left them alone and they are still fine.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Bait hives do not always work.IME 
I set them up all over my one acre. I put Used comb. LGO, queen juice. My thinking was getting the swarm vigor Barry referred to. There is nothing like it. Two swarms from my hive. Neither took residence in my bait hives. BTW, they were two deeps with the bottom box empty, up in a tree 10 feet high. I could see the swarm in a tree but I could not get that high up. One I followed 500 yds to an open broke branch of an oak tree. The other left when I was not around. 
So, you can have swarm vigor,,,,,,if you can catch them, or you can have splits with bees. I know what I'm going to do


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

The scouts are looking for a deep size box with an 1-1 1/4 entrance hole. I think that is where I went wrong. I was trying to use a medium size box. The nuc is not optimum.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

ace, i meant they left for their new home in less than an hour after gathering on a limb. this is before i was taking care of them, or i would have tried to catch them. i can see my bees from my house, and usually check on 'em in the morning before i go to work, when i come home for lunch, and in the evening after work. this spring, i had three out of four colonies go queenless, probably from swarming and failing to get a new mated queen.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Rick 1456 said:


> BTW, they were two deeps with the bottom box empty,


Too big, use one deep.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Ace - I'll let you come and collect the swarms that settle 40' up in one of the numerous spruce around my yard. I just wave goodbye to them and wish them luck.


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

I love swarms! I know this is no good for the commercial or science guys on the forum but I put out a couple of swarm boxes around the yard in the spring. I catch almost all of them, then I pull one frame of swarm cells and make a nuc from other hives. If I want to raise a few queens, I make up a queenless nuc and pull a piece of comb from the swarm (comb making machines) with fresh eggs in it and put in the nuc on a foundationless frame. Its what made beekeeping fun for me and got me off the package, treatment treadmill.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

Well last year’s record was two nuc traps, no success. My bird house cut out swarm was robbed out in fall and my split with my new queen is still going. I intend to try all 3 methods again. Just maybe my history will have a good year like Max and get some swarms in the traps.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

Ace, 
Why didn't I think,,,,,, I'm sure sure that was the reason the bees did not move into my bait hives.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> It is not controlled unless you know what you are doing and follow the procedure to a tee, ... Correct me if I am wrong but I believe when a colony swarms it lights in a tree close by and then the scouts go searching.


One should remember that we are working w/ a dynamic animal which may or may not be responding to things we have no idea of or are unable to discern. So, even if one does everything correctly to a tee, success isn't gauranteed.

Swarms don't always do anything, including lighting in a tree nearby. But, quite often they do and will do so on the same tree that same swarm season. I had three swarms light on a short hemlock this past Spring.

I still think that the word "control" is the proper one to use, because it is under the beekeepers' control that the split, the controlled swarm, is made. If one will consult a number of bee books, such as "The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Beekeeping" edited by Roger Morse and Ted Hooper, one will find a number of procedures described in enuf detail that a beginner should be able to manipulate the hive and colony towards effective swarm control. One method is the Demaree method.

Honeybee colonies swarm as their natural way of species propogation. We can artificially do that w/ our bees and keep from loosing as many as we do to the environment. Though, there are worse things than that which could happen.

"ABC of BeeCulture" compares swarming to what most cell based reproducing critters do, "a narrowing at the waist and splitting into two reproductive individuals, and so on and so on." Or something like that.

Some equipment seller also sell a large peat pot swarm collector w/ queen scent lure. I have used one w/out success, treying to catch bees that might have come off of a ship traveling thru Eisenhower Locks, near Massena, NY. Another one I know of someone set up on property next to an apiary of mine. I don't know if the beekeeper got a swarm or not.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Acebird said:


> Well I don't want to speak for Michael Bush but I think he said or has written on his site that he puts a bait hive underneath a tree that has a swarm in it and it just goes right in 9 times out of 10.


Context is key. To be clear, Mr. Bush was talking about a bait hive with his blend of natural queen pheromone and lemongrass oil dipped onto either end of a q-tip.

I catch a couple of swarms every year, but my hives haven't swarmed in a few years. I'm too busy splitting them. In my area, a single major manipulation like that usually heads off the swarming impulse. That and I keep extraordinarily large hives which may be a factor.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Acebird said:


> What if you let the hive swarm and then catch the swarm?


Shall we go back to keeping bees in skeps?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Riskybizz said:


> Whats that old saying..."a bee in the hand is worth 2 in the bush".....


A swarm in the hand is worth something...two swarms in a bush is a pretty picture.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> Swarms don't always do anything, including lighting in a tree nearby. But, quite often they do and will do so on the same tree that same swarm season. I had three swarms light on a short hemlock this past Spring.


That's an interesting phenomenon. The Heathland Skep Beekeeping Videos (in which the beekeepers rely on swarms exclusively for increase) say that the swarms land on the same trees in the same spots year after year. But these guys move all their hives to one location during swarming season every year and watch and wait for swarms. Still, how do you think the bees know?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Maybe it's like DCAs or swarm decision making. I've seen swarms go to the same tree year after year. Different bees, same tree. Maybe there is scent left over.

Don't those same videos show them shaking packages from skeps?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> Shall we go back to keeping bees in skeps?


Is it easier?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> Don't those same videos show them shaking packages from skeps?


All primary swarms are sold. Secondary swarms are kept for increase or sold. Bees are shaken to get at the honey, but they're usually dumped into weak hives.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Acebird said:


> Is it easier?


Watch the videos, decide for yourself.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Back years ago I had all my hives at home with a wife and home schooled kids watching the hives. I would get a call that a hive swarmed, come home and almost always find it in one of two places that were easy to get. 75% of the swarms landed in the same two locations. The other's were non retrievable. Now my bees are in an out yard and I will work to keep them from swarming.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Solomon Parker said:


> Still, how do you think the bees know?


Have you ever been to the Adirondacks in the winter time. If someone has built a cabin or even a lean two shelter and you are stuck in the woods overnight would you sleep in the snow or go in the cabin? What ever reason the bees decided (democratically of course) to stop at that spot had to be a good one so it makes sense that others would follow.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

interesting, the few i have seen and /or caught were in the same bush or the one next to it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Is it easier?


I doubt it. Not if you think you don't know anything now. W/ skeps you will know even less as there is no one around to teach you how to manage them.

Besides, they are basically illegal in NY.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

I guess that means if you see them land high up in a tree, time to cut down that tree. You don't want to encourage the practice.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Or get out your rifle and shoot off the branch. I do know people who have done both, cut down trees to get swarms and shot them down.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good idea solomon! come spring, i am going to try to do what you mentioned and use splits to make increase and prevent swarms. if they all make it through winter, i'll have five full sized colonies and five nucs. what i think i should do is take brood from the big hives and give it to the nucs, until i get them all up to size, and then split off new nucs after that. does that sound about right?


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## ldh1006 (Nov 12, 2011)

my swarm traps work when i am not around..have u though about another hobby?


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> i've seen them leave in less than an hour. i like the idea of keeping a swarm trap prepared. Michael Bush also advocates keeping the broodnest open to avoid swarms.


squarepeg, do you use unlimited brood nests or do you use a queen excluder? I'm still sitting on the fence on this matter...weighing pros and cons of both ways.

Ed


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Well known beekeeping axiom: The size of a swarm increases in direct proportion to its height and/or inaccessibility.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i've had them on, then off, then on again, and off again. i am using one deep brood chamber and one medium honey super on the big colonies for overwintering, no excluder. i add a second super in the spring, and harvest the capped frames as they are ready. i tried excluders this summer, but i did notice backfilling in some hives. i tried putting an entrance above the excluder, and closed the bottom entrance. that helped with the backfilling, but i think the upper entrance was too big. it went all the way across and was one half inch tall, and the problem was that the bees didn't store in the front third of the super above the entrance. this year, i am going to try the excluders again, put a six inch notch on the front of the inner cover for a top entrance, and close the bottom entrance again. i'm also considering going to sbb with slatted racks.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

squarepeg said:


> good idea solomon! come spring, i am going to try to do what you mentioned and use splits to make increase and prevent swarms. if they all make it through winter, i'll have five full sized colonies and five nucs. what i think i should do is take brood from the big hives and give it to the nucs, until i get them all up to size, and then split off new nucs after that. does that sound about right?


My walkaway split method is to take the queen and five frames of mostly capped brood depending on how much you have and start the new hive with it. Also shake several more frames of bees in as well. Give that new hive tons of bees to work with and to build quickly, and some empty comb helps as well. Leave all or most of the young brood and eggs in the old hive for them to make a new queen and to have a group of bees hatching about the same time she's making her way in the world.

In my experience, this is about the best method for splitting a hive and giving both new hives the best opportunity to make a surplus the first year. The new hive can because they'll keep that big boost of hatching workers, and the old hive will have some time without brood to collect honey without other duties.

But that's my experience, it may work other ways in other locations. I'm moving toward producing larger numbers of nucs and small hives by grafting and getting more queens and hives for the same hive downtime.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

makes good sense. so you don't necessarily wait until you see swarm cells to do your split?


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

If you're trying to prevent a swarm, you better not wait until there are cells. Things can get unpredictable at that point.

If you are already at the point of cells, the best option in my view is to take the entire hive apart and start nucs, one with the queen and no cells, and one with each frame that has cells on it, and you might even cut some cells out and start some with those as well. If they swarm, you're not getting much honey, you might as well get half a dozen new hives out of the deal.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

got it. thanks.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>What if you let the hive swarm and then catch the swarm?

I don't recommend it, as everyone points out, but if you are going to do it, pick a low branch where you'd like them to gather, put a piece of Bee Boost (QMP from Mann Lake) on the spot you want them and a few drops of lemongrass oil (which I would renew every couple of weeks). AND put out some bait hives with similar attractants. In my experience, swarms go out about 10:00 am (while I am at work) and leave about 2:00 pm (while I am at work) and I don't catch them.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I guess the Gaurd bees must be keeping an eye on you.

I got a theory on splits too. Herman Cain is getting ready for one.


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

If you are in an urban setting allowing your hive to swarm and hopping to catch it seems like a good way to get backyard beekeepers banned.
Learn to manipulate your hive, have fun and with practice you will be able to make a split in less time than it takes to catch a swarm. Plus a split will always land where you want it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Solomon Parker said:


> Watch the videos, decide for yourself.


Well there you go the Germans have figured it out long ago. No need for an I phone app. Just make a swarm net put it over the entrance and you don't have to go finding them. How simple is that?:thumbsup:


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> pick a low branch where you'd like them to gather, put a piece of Bee Boost (QMP from Mann Lake) on the spot you want them and a few drops of lemongrass oil (which I would renew every couple of weeks).


Why do you think that works? Aren't the lures pheromones from a queen and since they already have a queen why would they be lured to another queen's scent? Is this another one of those the bees rule and the queen is just a baby maker hauled along?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Solomon Parker said:


> My walkaway split method is to take the queen ...


Hey, you two what has this got do do with my theory? Knock it off.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Why do you think that works? Aren't the lures pheromones from a queen and since they already have a queen why would they be lured to another queen's scent?

A swarm can't tell one queen from another. You often see more than one swarm merge or a swarm with several queens in it. The smell of the queen attracts the workers. The smell of the lemongrass oil attracts both the workers and the queen.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sorry ace, i need to learn to start a new thread instead of vearing of topic like that. and mb, if anyone hasn't thanked you lately please let me. your knowledge and insight have been invaluable to me as a beginner, and you have a real nack of getting the crux of an issue.


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## A'sPOPPY (Oct 13, 2010)

Ace, if I may ask, how many colonies do you manage ?


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## Daniel palmer (Jul 23, 2011)

ace, they cover those skeps with cow crap. and thats all i have to say about that


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Pay attention. TWO!! And before you ask, Two years experience w/ bees.

Oh, sorry, you asked Acebird. My apology.


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## A'sPOPPY (Oct 13, 2010)

Sorry I even bothered .


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## New Ky Beekeeper (Jun 27, 2011)

Barry said:


> Yes and no. It mimics a swarm in action, but lacks in the internal drive bees have when they swarm. There is a vigor that a swarm has that a split doesn't.


I have had splits with the same vigor as swarms and I have had swarms with low vigor. I wish I
find a way to tell how the queen will act.


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## New Ky Beekeeper (Jun 27, 2011)

"could" Sorry. I'm using a Kindle Fire and I'm not proficient on it yet.....


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

1. A swarm tends to fly at least 1/4 mile from the parent colony to find a new home. The actual preferred distance is usually closer to 1/2 mile. This should tell you how far to go from your apiary to set out bait hives.

2. Swarms prefer an opening about 2 inches diameter but will accept openings both larger and smaller. Opening size is relatively low on the priority list when shopping for a new home in bee land.

3. Swarms prefer a cavity just about exactly the size of a full depth Langstroth hive body. This is one measurement that Langstroth spent some time to get pretty close to what bees want.

4. Swarms prefer to move into a new home that is at least 10 feet above the ground. Now you know how high to place your bait hives.

5. Swarms show a marked preference for a new home that has been occupied by bees previously. Even a small piece of dark comb is highly attractive to them.

6. Swarms are most highly attracted to various types of lemon oil. This is the basis of MB's use of lemon oil. There is also plenty of research showing that queen pheromones are highly attractive.

7. Last but not least, swarms prefer a location in the shade in the afternoon but has some sun in early morning. They will avoid a bait hive that is sitting out in the open in preference for one that is in shade.

So putting it all together, make up a bait hive with a single deep langstroth brood chamber containing one drawn comb and swab a bit of lemon oil and queen lure inside. Place the bait hive in a tree 12 feet up so that it is shaded by the trees leaves. It should be at least a quarter mile from your apiary.

I can tell you from experience that this is very effective at catching swarms.

DarJones


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## Joseph Clemens (Feb 12, 2005)

For me there is just too much chaos and uncertainty with swarms - if my own hives ever even swarm, again. Still, almost every year a few swarms arrive from outside my apiary and take up residence in some of my idle equipment and I accept them and add them to my colonies (after requeening them). I am only too glad to accept free bees however they arrive.

I'm glad I was asked to grow some top bar nucs. I started them by placing their top bars initially into full-size hives, in a day or two, once they had begun building comb, I collected those top bars with their tiny new combs. I then put them together into their own boxes, placing them into the locations of strong nucs, shaking the resident bees from their combs and into the boxes with their new top bars. In these newly formed top bar nucs there was bee space on each side of the top bars - I placed an empty supers above each and gave each a pollen sub patty and a quart jar of syrup. The surprise was, how quickly they grew and how strong they became in just a few weeks. They were easily the fastest growing colonies and strongest -- seemingly exhibiting that "swarm vigor", but without actually being natural swarms. They drew their five medium depth combs, filled them with nectar, honey, pollen, and brood (mostly brood), all within a week or two.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks Dar. Nice list. I'm going to keep this list for reference this spring/summer. I hope to put out several traps around some known feral colonies. I've got permission to "get" the bees if I can, but before I start a trap out or anything I want to try and catch a swarm off of them. I'm not sure, though, that the property owner's property line extends for more than a 1/4 mile. Any tips on traps that are closer to existing colonies?

Ed


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## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

Ace, splits and increases really are not that hard a concept to grasp and be successfull...I personally think making a successfull split is one of the easiest tasks to master in all of beekeeping. Its easy to understand, easy to accomplish, easy to monitor for progress, and if it begins to fail...its easy to find and fix the problem. 

I dont count on catching swarms to make increases...we catch them and add them to our numbers...but its not a given even in your own yard. We have one yard with 100 colonies, in that yard are 3 swarm traps. Not one of those traps caught a swarm this year, despite upkeep, rebaiting, and great swarm trap locations. That yard threw 4 swarms this year that I know of because I watched them swarm...everyone of them ended up 40 feet up in the pine trees and later flew off to unknown locations.

In comaprison we split that same yard after orange blossom and made over 100 nucs...with about a 98% success rate (we use cells, not walk away method).......in summary dont count on catching your own swarms, make a split and monitor its progress, its as close as you can get to any guarantee.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

Fusion Power - thanks for the list. Very similar ot the conclusion as per " Bee Democracy" - an excellent book. My experince is similar but I'm sure there are locational differences. I have watched swarms take off and settle within feet of the hive only to take off again two days later and move for a couple of hundred feet.
The height seems to matter very little in my experience.
Lemon Grass oil has been recommended.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

"
In comaprison we split that same yard after orange blossom and made over 100 nucs...with about a 98% success rate (we use cells, not walk away method).......in summary dont count on catching your own swarms, make a split and monitor its progress, its as close as you can get to any guarantee. "
Could you please descrobe your metthod. What works for you may very well work for us!! Thanks!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

squarepeg said:


> sorry ace, i need to learn to start a new thread instead of vearing of topic like that.


No problem squarepeg, it was an inside joke. You were just an innocent stand by. I do it all the time without noticing I am doing it.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Fusion_power said:


> 2. Swarms prefer an opening about 2 inches diameter but will accept openings both larger and smaller. Opening size is relatively low on the priority list when shopping for a new home in bee land.


I don't want to pit expert against expert but Dr. Seeley's bait boxes had a 1 1/4 inch entrance towards the bottom of the box. Greater than 1 3/8 was less desirable. All other criteria on your list was the same. He made mention of ready made dark comb was a huge attractant.

Ref. Honeybee Democracy location 746 table 3.1


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

>What if you let the hive swarm and then catch the swarm?

OK, rather than repeat the obvious draw backs, how would you design a "system" to control the development of a swarm and assure the capture of that swarm. We all agree that swarming is nature's way of reproducing colonies. Our "artificial swarming" techniques have proven themselves. I imagine any of our imperfections in our artificial techniques offset the higher mortality of natural swarms. So, how can you improve this mouse trap?

Steve


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Steve10 said:


> So, how can you improve this mouse trap?
> 
> Steve


Doesn't look like you have to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7M1X0bWYyo&feature=player_embedded#!

Piece of cake thanks to the Germans long ago.


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## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

An interesting video but seems like a rather labor intensive process


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

max2; I'll answer for peacekeeperapiaries since he's my son and business partner. We use 5 frame deep nuc boxes with a screened opening. Open a good strong hive, find the queen if possible and catch her or leave her on the frame she's on and set it aside. Take out 2 frames of capped brood with the adhering bees and one frame of open brood with adhering bees and place them in the nuc. Find a good full frame of honey with bees and put it in the nuc also. We use a drawn frame of comb for the 5th frame or foundation later in the year after we've used up all our drawn comb. Take the nucs to the yard you'll use as a mating yard and set them up and pull the screens. Late in the day or next morning place a queen cell in a cell protector between the frame topbars and in between 2 frames of brood. Go home and have an adult beverage! Check in a couple of days to make sure all cells have emerged, if not place another cell. Wait 10 days and check for laying queens. If queenless install another cell or two. Get some hive bodies ready; these splits will need to go into a new box in 2-4 weeks. If you make up your splits and leave them in the same yard location as you make them from, then don't screen the entrance; you'll lose some foragers back to the original hive but you'll still have plenty of nurse bees and more on the way as the capped brood emerges. I made 30 new splits in mid-Oct; checked them a few days ago and had 27 laying queens and 3 virgins. This is so simple a caveman can do it! If it got any easier then even Acebird could do it! :lpf:


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

27 out of 30, not too shabby! what is a 'cell protector'?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

fish_stix said:


> This is so simple a caveman can do it! If it got any easier then even Acebird could do it! :lpf:


Simpler than putting a swarm net over the entrance of a swarming hive?

John, you call that labor intensive? Oh yeah, there is that sitting on stool and smoking a pipe for a while...


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> Shall we go back to keeping bees in skeps?


In video #4 of Heathland Beekeeping, the beekeeper looks to me like he is making up nucs to increase and overwinter. Only he is using skeps instead of Langs. Aren't they similar?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> Simpler than putting a swarm net over the entrance of a swarming hive?


This would still require very precise timing which equates to inspecting the hive numerous times.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I was waiting for someone to say that. Splits require very precise timing and a whole lot of inspections and manipulations to boot. What have we lost from these expert beekeepers? How do they tell the precise moment that a hive will swarm? How could we let that technology and experience be forgotten? I wanted to set with those beekeepers to learn their secrets. That would be an unforgettable experience.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Acebird said:


> Splits require very precise timing and a whole lot of inspections and manipulations to boot.


Not really, if you have a little practice.


Acebird said:


> What have we lost from these expert beekeepers?


The trouble with wondering what you've lost is never really knowing. Ever wondered what you can't remember? I hope it doesn't occupy too much of your time.

What we've lost, we won't miss. We have better methods that are more precise and far more productive. We have selective queen breeding. We have movable frames. Everything that we take for granted today like requeening, splitting, and not covering our hives with cow poop evolved from what skep beekeepers were doing over 150 years ago. We can spend less time and energy per hive year round and still make more honey, pollen, propolis, and probably more wax if we were to work at it. Keep skeps for fun if you like, but like Mark said, it's illegal in most states, including yours.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Acebird; where is the "precise timing and a whole lot of inspections and manipulations" involved in the split method I outlined above? It takes 5 minutes to gather the frames, 20 seconds to place a cell, 10 minutes to drink a cold one and then it's a waiting game until they have a laying queen. We make splits all year because of our climate and numerous flows and can get mated queens through November and sometimes all winter. Obviously, you can't do quite that number in your area. Manipulations involve checking for laying queens; real tough! Then moving them into a hive body; 2 minutes max. If you want a hobby that takes zero time and effort on your part, better find something else besides beekeeping, whether you own 2 hives or 2 thousand. Catching swarms is not a reliable method of making increases if you really want to grow in a planned fashion. And BTW, the videos I've seen involving using skeps is a whole lot more labor intensive than making splits from a Langstroth hive. Do they catch splits? Yes. But not by knowing exactly when a skep will swarm; just checking daily and hiving the ones that do swarm. I can tell you when mine are going to swarm also; it's between the months of March and October, usually during the late morning, and I probably won't be there since some of our yards are 50 miles away. If you want increase do some reading, put on your work shoes and go out and MAKE your increase using proven methods that actually work a high percentage of the time. Beekeeping is not a government entitlement program; you actually have to work to make it work!


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Acebird said:


> Splits require very precise timing


No they don't. That's the beauty of a split, it can be done on the beekeepers timing, not the bee's swarming time.


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## max2 (Dec 24, 2009)

fish sticks - post 77 - excellent and clear. I will give it a go. My method is similar but I'm always concerned about leaving the splits in the same yard. Thanks!!


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

Happy to help a Downunder (upside down?) beek!


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Still a little puzzled about all this fish........exactly what type of adult beverage gives the best results?


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## oblib (Oct 28, 2011)

IMO a well aged bourbon


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

squarepeg said:


> 27 out of 30, not too shabby! what is a 'cell protector'?


squarepeg; look in Dadant's catalog or online catalog under JZ BZ Queen rearing Supplies and you'll find Top Bar cell protectors and Push-in Cell protectors. Mann Lake also. Simply a plastic cage to keep the bees from tearing down queen cells. We usually use the topbar type because you just have to raise the front of the lid, pry two frames apart and place the cell. The topbar type has 2 "ears" that hang on the frames. The push-ins need to be pushed into the comb in an area of open brood.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

neat! so after you cut out your cells, you put em in the protector, then put em in the hive. right?


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> Still a little puzzled about all this fish........exactly what type of adult beverage gives the best results?


It all depends on the weather! Hot days an ice cold Bud, (Downunder, Fosters maybe). On cool fall days nothing beats a Crown Royal on the rocks! My best splits happen when using the Crown treatment along with a fine cigar (Rocky Patel or Gurkha). :thumbsup:


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

If you are expecting cold nights at the time I would advise against the top bar method, been burned errr chilled with that method before.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> If you are expecting cold nights at the time I would advise against the top bar method, been burned errr chilled with that method before.


Cold nights? Where I live a cold night is about 65 F. Chilly! Long sleeve tee shirt weather!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

jim, are you saying that the queen cells can't be kept as warm in a protector?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

No prob at 65, we are nucing in east Texas in late March and nights in the 40's are not uncommon. Learned a hard lesson one year and now always put the cells directly on the brood.
Squarepeg: Not at all, just make sure there is good bee cover where you place the cell. Top bar is most likely fine but check the weather forecast and your best judgement.


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## fish_stix (May 17, 2009)

squarepeg said:


> neat! so after you cut out your cells, you put em in the protector, then put em in the hive. right?


That is 100% correct. Handle the cells gingerly. You may have to trim some wax on the upper part of the cell to get them to slide in without mashing.


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## JohnAllen (Jul 2, 2010)

Acebird said:


> John, you call that labor intensive? Oh yeah, there is that sitting on stool and smoking a pipe for a while...


Well maybe not hard work but very time consuming. The video says that the process requires monitoring the hive "from dawn to dusk" during swarm season. That is May and June? You have to be ready to cover the hive entrance with a net at the very moment they start swarming. I assume you are not serious about this.


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

Acebird said:


> Doesn't look like you have to.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7M1X0bWYyo&feature=player_embedded#!
> 
> Piece of cake thanks to the Germans long ago.


Not exactly! That doesn't answer my challenge.

That looks like a neat way of catching the swarm, but as they said, they don't always get the queen. If there's a queen in the colony to split, I get her 100% of the time. 

Also, I originally asked how would you control the development of the swarm, so basically you didn't have to sit in the bee yard continually for the entire swarming season? 

I think most of our spouses would have a major problem with us if we sat in the bee yard for swarming season, from sun-up to sun-down, waiting for swarms rather than going to work to pay the bills (even if you're a full-time beekeeper.) If I tried it I'd lose the best Honey I ever had! In the method in the video, the bees are controlling the swarming and the timing, not the beekeeper. 

I was hoping to learn from this discussion how to manipulate my colonies so my splits/divides are the comb drawing machines the natural swarms are.

Steve


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Yup, real easy, not to cold not to warm do this later oops what out for this and that then do this next do that and by all means handle the cells gingerly ... all just to get a queen and if you let bees be bees they will do it all for you.

Let's get it straight, I have no intention of taking a basket weaving course and plastering my creation with cow dung but explain to me how all of what you are doing is easier than putting a net over a Lang hive and catching the swarm.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Steve, if you read my first post you would see that it is not about manipulation it is about learning the signals that tell you when the hive is about to swarm so the wifey is not nagging you to go to work. Now who knows what the signals are besides the brilliant beekeepers of the past? Come on, give it up.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> explain to me how all of what you are doing is easier than putting a net over a Lang hive and catching the swarm.


Since no one here, except maybe me, has ever messed w/ bees in a skep, no one can really answer your question. Whether it is easier or not is irrelevant since you don't work w/ skep hives. It's different, that's all. A different way of keeping bees which requires different management techniques.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Steve, if you read my first post you would see that it is not about manipulation it is about learning the signals that tell you when the hive is about to swarm so the wifey is not nagging you to go to work.


Nowhere in your first Post did you ask anything like that at all. You seem to have a nack for not asking the question which you expect the answer to.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Acebird said:


> What if you let the hive swarm and then catch the swarm?


Is there any manipulation of the hive in that question? Is there any indication of using a Sept? Am I speaking another language?

Mark, can you meet the challenge. What are the imminent signs of a hive that is about to swarm. I want to know how many "expert" beekeepers know what that is today.
Edited:
I know you have German heritage. So do I. But my grandmother didn't know anything about beekeeping. It is a shame that tallent got away from us.


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

Solomon,
Yes, somehow I inadvertently deleted my last sentence "Maybe a topic for another post" when I edited the post before sending it. Often, provocative statements/questions posted by Acebird go in many, many directions, unveiling a few "jewels" of information along the way if you're patient. Just wishful thinking on my part. I'll refrain from that in the future.

Acebird,
Sorry if my comment was offense to you. Others had answered your original post and I was responding to the latest direction you were leading the discussion in. As far as learning the signals, most of us with a few years under our belt know many of the triggers or "signals" that indicate impending swarming. It's with this that we intervene prior to swarming because it not only benefits the beekeeper, but the bees as well, since the majority of natural swarms die. I was tickled this summer when, as an experiment, I was able to capitalize on those "signals" to split one mediocre hive into ten viable colonies (made 12 but I think I lost 2 virgins on their mating flights) using a combination of what I learned from this forum, and reading the works of L.L. Langstroth, Dr. C.C. Miller, G.M. Doolittle, and many others. I'm positive I spent less time than all those fellas sitting around on that video you referenced. So if you want a specific answer to your original post, our current systems of splitting and dividing hive is vastly better than your proposed theory.

Ace, is your comment, "Come on, give it up." your admission to withdrawing form a challenge? Are you OK? Not sick are you? I was just starting to have fun with you...lighten up! Let me know when you're sitting in your yard with your net. I'll bring the beer (and a camera!)

Steve


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Steve10 said:


> Ace, is your comment, "Come on, give it up." your admission to withdrawing form a challenge? Are you OK? Not sick are you? I was just starting to have fun with you...lighten up! Let me know when you're sitting in your yard with your net. I'll bring the beer (and a camera!)
> 
> Steve


Steve, don't make promises you have no intention to keep. After all I hear your wife keeps close tabs on you and how would you explain sitting around with Acebird and providing the beer. I don't think that will go over to well.

Let's get serious now... Bud is not beer.

I have the hard cider, the wife has made her own bluberry lacquer, and we have a 5 gal carboy fermenting our first batch of mead. So if you do show up with the beer make sure it is the real thing.
My wife is far more educated than I am. You won't trip her up on the English language. And she can reveal your inner psyche and is more than willing to drive you home. I will be looking forward to seeing you with your camera in tow.


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## swarm_trapper (Jun 19, 2003)

OK so i just read through 11 pages of posts and still i would like to know Ace, what would be the reason to try catch a swarm vs. make a split. 

I thought you were the guy that thought beekeepers work harder not smarter and you want to change this. Are we rubbing off on you? lol 
Nick



Acebird said:


> What if you let the hive swarm and then catch the swarm? Sure there is a risk that you won't get the swarm but isn't there a risk when you split a hive? Is every split guaranteed to work?


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## Steve10 (Nov 19, 2008)

Ace,

Your right, I'd rather spend time with my wife. Let's just say I appreciate every day longer I have with her. Just a suggestion, put Love is the easiest thing you can give rather than "next" in your post script. Never take it for granted. You'll understand some day.

Maybe if you knew people as well as you thought, you wouldn't say such insensitive, stupid things.

Good luck with your bees,
Steve


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## JD's Bees (Nov 25, 2011)

Here is an expert.
Langstroth from The Hive and Honey-Bee, " Natural swarming is objectionable, on account of the time and labor which it requires. The Apiary must be closely watched during the whole swarming-season; and if this business is entrusted to thoughtless children, or careless adults, many swarms will be lost."


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

You get where you can look at a hive and know it's going to swarm soon, as in, it will swarm sometime in the next week or two. Not many can look at a hive and say, it's going to swarm today...


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

methinks acebird as been drinking too much lacquer. 


> I have the hard cider, the wife has made her own bluberry lacquer


Liqueur is a fermented beverage, a type of liquor, sometimes referred to as a cordial.


I learned a long time ago that the signals a colony gives when it is ready to swarm start about 2 days before the actual swarm. The problem is that you can't predict the actual swarm. Only that the colony is ready to go. Most beekeepers are doing good to tell when a colony has already swarmed.

DarJones


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Is there any manipulation of the hive in that question? Is there any indication of using a Sept? Am I speaking another language?
> 
> Mark, can you meet the challenge. What are the imminent signs of a hive that is about to swarm. I want to know how many "expert" beekeepers know what that is today.
> 
> It is a shame that tallent got away from us.


I'm not sure I understand what you are asking? The signs of swarming seen from outside of the hive? Only when I see bees gathering at the entrance and issuing from the hive. Otherwise it isn't something I have learned how to recognize.

Now, if you want to go inside, that's another story. But you seem to want an answer which doesn't require going into the hive.

Like most beekeepers I know, I work my hives to keep them from getting to the swarming mode. Then I don't have to worry about what it looks like when they are about to swarm, because I have already swarmed them.

Your first post statement question was quite a bit different than your reply to Steve. Post the two together in the same Post and in their intirety and we will see.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

JD's Bees said:


> " if this business is entrusted to thoughtless children, or careless adults, many swarms will be lost."


Now there's a Tag Line


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## MJC417 (Jul 26, 2008)

Honestly, its not that hard to know when they are going to swarm with a sbb, I can hear a free queen "tooting" and the queens in cells "quacking". Then I'll take out frames with cells and make nucs. My nucs are about an inch deeper to accomodate the queen cells.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

If those were the signs MJC, we would all be swarm experts. The problem is that it is not consistent. For example, apis mellifera mellifera will swarm before the queen cells are capped, Carniolans will swarm just after they are capped, and Italians will swarm any time between cell capping and queen emergence. Queen piping is not a reliable signal.

DarJones


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Honestly, its not that hard to know when they are going to swarm with a sbb, I can hear a free queen "tooting" and the queens in cells "quacking". Then I'll take out frames with cells and make nucs. My nucs are about an inch deeper to accomodate the queen cells. 

By the time you hear queens piping you've already lost the primary swarm. The old queen left a week before the new ones emerge.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

SQKCRK wrote:

Since no one here, except maybe me, has ever messed w/ bees in a skep, no one can really answer your question.

I must maintain a "Log" observation hive that is in a half a log against a window in the Museum. Most years I clean out half of the comb(in rotation) when they start capping the drone brood. I can remove many mites that way, and can usually, but not always, prevent a swarm(not good at a tourist type place), but still leave enough bees to have them build up populations for winter. It is a judgment call as to how much to remove, so that they reach peak population slightly after swarm season has ended.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Now, if you want to go inside, that's another story. But you seem to want an answer which doesn't require going into the hive.


It appeared in the film that the sign for swarming was on the outside at the entrance. They looked inside to confirm their suspicions. So apparently there are signs both outside and inside. The question is what are they be it inside or outside? I am sure the signs are there whether you are using a skept or a Lang.

Looks like piping and quacking is one. I think that was mentioned in Honeybee Democracy.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Either way, you have to spend time observing/working your bees to be able to recognize the signs and it seems to me like you are trying to short cut the process or are just entertaining an intellectual idea But, I could be wrong.

Following questions asked in your original post about letting them swarm and harvesting the swarms, there will be so many that you don't notice which will enter the side of someones house, which is, especially where you live, irresponsible beekeeping. There are mechanisms/practices which one can undertake which will minimize swarming. One should incorporate those practices into their colony management and hive care. That's my opinion.

And, maybe along the way, following those practices, you will obtain the skills and powers of observation which will lead you to be able to do that which you seem to be asking about.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> And, maybe along the way, following those practices, you will obtain the skills and powers of observation which will lead you to be able to do that which you seem to be asking about.


If this is true wouldn't there be a large number of people that would have that information?
What is wrong with entertaining an intellectual idea? I always felt it was much smarter to entertain an idea before one acts on it.
As far as swarming goes why do you and others who have posted feel that the swarm is going to enter the side of someones house? To the best of my knowledge no one pulled a swarm out of a house in Utica last year and maybe for years in the past. I know there are tons of wasps around. I had an attic and barn full of them in Sauquoit. This year we even pulled a monster bumble bee nest out of a storage bin. Yet no one is getting any swarms of honeybees. Seems to me we are hurting for swarms.
After reading the book Honeybee Democracy, there was no mention of picking a home near a food source as a criteria. That seems very odd to me because most animals will have that as their first criteria. Their primary reason for moving is for food.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

What are there more of where you live, houses w/ unoccupied cavities or trees w/ unoccupied cavities? Not that it matters, the responsibility to keep untended bees from causing the public concern is the same. You will do what you wish, so go ahead. Should Utica ban bees from the city limits because of swarms from managed hives, you will be the one to deal w/ that, not me.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Should Utica ban bees from the city limits because of swarms from managed hives, you will be the one to deal w/ that, not me.


You are making assumptions again Mark, You have reminded everyone several times that I only have two hives. Both are in visible site of my kitchen window. I know they have not thrown swarms how about yours? Can you say the same? How about your friends in New Hartford and Sauquoit? What are the chances that my two hives vs. the thousand other managed hives around Utica would be the blame?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

So much bickering, so little time. If you don't want to manage your hives to your own better advantage while also doing the right thing regarding the health, safety and well being of your neighbors, so be it. I, and others, have advised you on why letting hives swarm is not necassarily the best way to manage hives, what more can we do?

See tag line below.


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