# Why not



## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

Why do all the guys that graft queens not put there egg frame in the cell starter for 24 hours - like it shows on Randy's O's website. I do and it sure makes grafting a breeze. I don't see this advice given out much - but if you ever try it once - you'll never go back


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## johnbeejohn (Jun 30, 2013)

I have heard of doing this never tried tho will try it next year just for you sak
Never had any real acceptance problems tho


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## Dan the bee guy (Jun 18, 2015)

I would think it has to do with the age of the egg there can be a 3 day difference.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Why does it make grafting a breeze? Because there's jelly under the larvae?


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> Why does it make grafting a breeze? Because there's jelly under the larvae?


I use a Jenter and that's what I found, actually in my case they were putting to much in making it harder to remove the plugs without disturbing the lava.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Michael Palmer said:


> Why does it make grafting a breeze? Because there's jelly under the larvae?



Yes, but it doesn't have to be 24 hours, 6-8 is good. Put the grafting frame in in the morning graft in the afternoon.


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## mgstei1 (Jan 11, 2014)

Sak, so you put a frame of 2 to 3 day old eggs in the queenless cell starter 24 hrs before grafting from it so the nurse bees supply plenty of a RJ bed to make it easier to graft from?


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## johnbeejohn (Jun 30, 2013)

I think he was talking about putting the cell bars and Frames in to have them prime the cells


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

sakhoney said:


> Why do all the guys that graft queens not put there egg frame in the cell starter for 24 hours - like it shows on Randy's O's website. I do and it sure makes grafting a breeze. I don't see this advice given out much - but if you ever try it once - you'll never go back


So the cells with the RJ when you pull them out are the correct age? Does it help with ID of the correct age as well as it is floating to help lift it out?


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I think what he's saying, is you put the frame you're grafting from into the cell starter, that way, you just pull that frame out and graft right back into the same hive and they'll be feeding the larva that have hatched heavily already. No running required I guess is what he's saying.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

JRG - Yes - that's what I'm saying - the nurse bees really sock the royal jelly into these frames of eggs and you can get under the worm real EZ. And also you transfer the worm with said jelly - helping to keep the worm wet. I get better grafts this way.
MGST - Yes that's what I'm saying
Flyer Jim - Gonna try your way - I always just put the grafting frame the evening before and remove the next morning - I will try the morning install - evening pull this spring - Thanks for the tip


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## mgstei1 (Jan 11, 2014)

Ive always just placed a frame of young brood and possibly some eggs a few days before placing the grafted larvae frame in to kinda stir the nurse bees up into a frenzy to produce royal jelly.
Never dawned on me to grab my mother queen egg frame and place into the starter to flood the bottom of larvae with royal jelly. 
Especially if I note where on the frame the smallest larvae are 24hrs before grafting so if my failing eyesite grabs an older larvae than at least it has a great chance of being fed well from the start.
Great tip SAK and will be tried on my 1st batch next spring.
what else ya got ?


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

MGST - While I would love to take credit for this - I got it off Randy Oliver's website awhile back. As far as what else I got - What ya need? I did a good writeup on nucs verses packages a while back.


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## mgstei1 (Jan 11, 2014)

Since you asked after my asking!
Our club is wanting to use an incubator to finish the cells once capped. Mainly to save on resources and to not disturb the finisher hives as much. Any advice with that? I made an incubator for my home cells and it worked fine and was successful.
However if we do get lucky and have success we may be dealing with hundreds instead of dozens. Which would be a miracle for consistency and have viable good mothers.
When we worked with a commbeek last spring we were all amazed about the number of nurse bees gathered and also capped brood frames for his starter/finisher colonys. He kept cells in same hive body.
He literally dumped gallons of bees in the starter/finisher every few days and the weight of the top was actually used to pack them in.
each capped brood frame was removed once most of the bees hatched out and another capped was placed in.
The cells were enormous but the nucs he had were some strong hives and most produced honey during the tallow flow here.
His queens are amazing but he also brings in new queens from other breeders to keep his bee traits strong.
Was this overkill and good practice?


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

MGST - I would not say it was overkill at all - Changing out breeder mothers every year is a very good practice. Thank about this - you make up cells all year - the queens are all daughters of now said mother/breeder. Now use the same breeder the next year and who do these queens breed with? There cousins. Change out breeder/mothers and no inbreeding. Now if your using several breeder/mothers this would not be as much of a problem. The guy I work with in the spring makes up 25000/35000 cells a season. He uses an incubator for this reason. He runs 8/10 crews of guys. 2 crews are installing cells and the other crews are making up more nucs, feeding, ETC. The guys making up the cells are another group by there self's. Now the guys in the morning that install the cells go into the incubator in the morning and grab 300/500 cells. They run out to the nuc yards and install by lunch. Back at the shop - do lunch and grab another batch of cells to be installed in the evening. So the incubator is more of a convenience in this operation. Don't have to wait on the cell making group - just grab and go. Plus doing this many cells every 2 to 3 days is a lot to keep track of. If you use a incubator - be sure to use some foam with holes - in case a virgin hatches out. Makes it tough for her to cut the cells going through the bottoms that are plastic cups. Now as far as nurse bees - on that scale of cell raising - you will need to shake several pounds a couple of times a week. The guy I work with runs 4 or 5 rounds through the finishers. Then gives them a break - moves the cell builder out of the yard and brings in new ones. I didn't do that one year and at the end of the season - those bees were as sparky as all get out. Heck there on pallets - change them out when they start meeting you when you enter the yard. Good luck on your cells and may the force be with you


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I haven't though much about this issue. Simply use a new drawn frame for the
queen to lay in. Then on the 4th day when the eggs hatched simply graft them into
the cell cups. Though I see your point. How much difference in term of RJ deposited I have not
measure it before.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

go to Randy's site - he has before and after photos.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Not saying there's anything wrong with it. Just one more step. I use this breeder hive, with queen confined to the 3 comb section by a vertical queen excluder. I keep the colony strong, so the grafting comb has larvae well fed, and floating on a puddle of jelly. Just eliminates one step...of which I have quite enough.


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## bucksbees (May 19, 2015)

I like this nugget of exprenice, either I would never have thought of it, or it would have taken 20 years to figure out.


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