# Permacomb--yes or no?



## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

I've got a shed full of frames that need to be scraped and cleaned of wax moth detritus. Some of the foundation is salvagable, some isn't. I'm so tired of cleaning frames that have been slammed by wax moths, I'm thinking about switching over to Permacomb. I searched out "pros and cons" in this department and started reading the January 3, 2003, 15-page (!) thread entitled, "Permacomb." There are a lot of interesting points brought up, but here we are two years later. Most of those initial statements were speculation, and I'm wondering if anybody now has any experienced, definitive advice as to whether I should make the switch.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I tried a couple of supers of PC for the first time last year. Overall I like it, but I'm not sure that I'll fully convert to it. The cons as far as I'm concerned are: 1) bees are very reluctant to start using it (particularly if they have conventional foundation to use). 2) I've found that it has a tendency to warp if the end bar spacing in not adequate (keep frame rests clean!). 3) if you don't use the provided spacers its a pain to get the correct spacing between frames (easily avoided using the supplied spacers). 4) harder to extract (hackler honey punch a must) since bees don't always draw comb past plastic cells.

Pros: 1) impervious to SHB larva and wax moth damage. 2) once accepted by bees, you'll always have drawn comb. 3) its just darn cool...just wish it was cheaper.

Hope this helps.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Astrobee was right on with every point he made. What it really boils down to is your particular style of beekeeping. Every different type of equipment requires a little tweek in the way you handle your bees and PC is no different.

If you can adapt to the points he made, you will love it. If not you will rue the day you bought it.

Start a package or swarm out on it and they take off like gangbusters. Add it to a wax and wood hive and they are reluctant, spraying with sugar syrup and HBH helps acceptance.

Keeping the end bars clean will eliminate warping. If they do warp, stacking them in the sun or oven at 200 with a couple of bricks flatens them back out.

Extracting is a breeze IF you use the honey punch, as Astro said, it's a must, buy the 2 inch model. You will never blow out a PC, and extraction time is faster as the speed can be twisted WAY up.

Yeah the cost sucks, but my time is money, and I can make more money in the time it takes to make up a frame than buying a frame of PC, and I only have to do it once. The more you buy, the cheaper it gets.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

1. I tried 10 supers of PC last spring (before the main flow started). Each PC comb was dipped in a sugar-syrup + HBH mix. The supers were put on strong clonies. I did everything I could to get the bees to use it. To this day only the center 4 or 5 combs are being used by the bees for storage and/or brood.

2. My experience is that the bees will fill up the brood nest with honey and pollen before they are forced to use the PC. So, if you go with PC it might be best to use ALL PC and not give the bees any wax combs.

3. My extractor is a hand crank model - PC is very heavy and hard on the equipment including the power source (me!). I don't believe a frame of PC holds as much honey as a equal sized frame of wax.

4. PC is impervious to wax moths, etc. On the other hand, a light spraying of CERTAN on frames is also very effective against the moths.

I plan on using the PC that I have to make up hives with nothing but PC for brood only and using feral swarms to populate. Most likely I'll need a queen includer for a few days to keep them from absconding, but hopefully they will do well.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I use a lot of it but I wax coat it to get small cell. I'm sure that also is why I have no acceptance problems. I like it a lot, but it does take some getting used to. You get rid of a lot of problems and you get a few new ones. You have to adjust your style of management, like any other change in the way you keep bees, or you'll hate it.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Tia, can I ask what perhaps is causing the loss of comb to wax moths. Its hard to pinpoint but there are perhaps management practices being missed or something else. And believe me I lost alot of comb, I'm not saying anything bad about you, we all have that problem, but is yours maybe more than average?

Comb is sometimes called the most valuable item to a beekeeper. Whether you use crystals or not, or some other moth deterrant, there are many tricks of the trade to keep your comb protected. Can you say what you have done in the past ot what you like and are opposed too?

There is a spray that you can use on comb and it protects it from damage. I know MB passed the name on several times. (It elludes me at the moment.) I will also get you the name of the same type treatment (alot cheaper)that is sold in some garden centers. A beekeeper has told me where to buy it and what the name is but I have not been to the store yet. I'll check it out this weekend.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The brand name of the product sold for bees is Certan.

Here's the link, but Davaid Eyre (the proprioter) had gone to England for a while and may not respond right away.
http://www.beeworks.com/uspage5.asp 

The active ingredient is a bacteria called Bacillus thuringiensis. This bacteria is also sold in the US for control of mosquito larvae and some other pests. I don't know how effective the strains sold for those purposes are on wax moths. Hopefully Bjorn will keep us all posted as to it's effectiveness for preserving comb.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

MB, Thats the stuff. He mentioned the full name several times, and during the conversation he kept referring it as "BT". He has used it for years and is very heavy into the organic gardening and nature things. He was introdueced to it years ago and says that the stuff in the gardening centers is just as good as anything he could buy from antwhere else.

I will let you know about effectiveness. Hopefully the strain and concentration is as good.


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## magnet-man (Jul 10, 2004)

Regarding BT you need to get the correct variety. There are two easily obtainable varieties and they are Kurstaki ,and Israelensis. For wax moths you need aizawai. 


There are different strains of B.t., each with specific toxicity to particular types of insects: B.t. aizawai (B.t.a.) is used against wax moth larvae in honeycombs; B.t. israelensis (B.t.i.) is effective against mosquitoes, blackflies and some midges; B.t. kurstaki (B.t.k.) controls various types of lepidopterous insects, including the gypsy moth and cabbage looper. A new strain, B.t. san diego, has been found to be effective against certain beetle species and the boll weevil. Source: (http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/24d-captan/bt-ext.html)

I have found only one other B.t.a. product and it is also mixed with B.t.k. but it is only sold in bulk. The kurstaki strain is found in DIPEL and CATERPILLAR KILLER by Safer Brand and it does have a petroleum product in it.


[This message has been edited by magnet-man (edited November 23, 2004).]


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I bought two supers and I hate it. It's heavy, It's the wrong size resulting in much burr comb, It won't space without a spacer; then you can't scrape the frame rest. The bees will work anything else before using it. I started a package on one super of PC and one of foundation. They ignored the PC and moved up to the foundation and drew it out. It's tough to extract. Suggest you solve the wax moth problem.

dickm


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Jeez, you guys are sooooo helpful! Thanks for all the info. I try to keep things with my bees as simple as possible and I've been fighting putting plastic in my hives. The permacomb was a thought I had after all of this year's disasters, but I'm sure this year was the exception to the rule, so I think I'm going to stick with good ole crimp wire. I don't even know what a honey punch is(?) Bjornbee, I don't normally have a problem with wax moths, but if you look at my posts over the past few months, this was just a bad, bad year. I learned a lot (this is only my second year). I won't make the same stupid mistakes again next year, and things will get better.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

Tia, those mistakes are stupid for one reason. Its because we all made them. Now how stupid are all of us together for making the same mistakes?


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## Russ (Sep 9, 2001)

Hi All;
Wax Moths!!!!!!! I think that I might of had a wax moth problem this fall but it didn't turn out that way. I noticed early this fall that I had a lot of brown moth [millers] flying around one of my hives. [Especially one of them] so I carried a fly swatter with me every day when I went by I would kill all the millers that I could. I should of been checking my hives sooner but when I checked them this one that the millers were flying around was a deadout. When I opened it up there was no Wax Moth damage but a lot of dead bees. I think that they lost their Queen and it was to late in the season for them to make another. This was a swarm that I picked up about the middle of June. Maybe the millers sinced this and would of taken over if I hadn't killed a couple a hundred, what do youi think??????? Dale


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

How to prevent wax moth damage:
Use excluders and do not permit brood in your extracting supers. Wax moth only destroy brood comb. I have stored my white extracting supers without protection for 30 years.
Watch carefully for deadouts and immediately stack them on top of strong colonies.


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

I know this is only my second year but I had 4 frames of fresh white wax(the 4 I took to a friends to extract). I lhad them in the trunk of the car in a nuc and wife needed the trunk for groceries, so it got brought into the house. I asked where it was after going to the farm and finding it missing. We started having alot of mothes in the house. We was cleaning out the closet for a yard sale and I found it in the back of the closet under some other boxes. It was full of mothes and had not usable comb left. So if the mothes will not eat comb that has not been used for brood why did they eat this?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I don't usually consider it a problem, but I've seen them eat parts of and attached cocoons to solid blocks of clean wax.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Maybe they ate it because it was burried in a dark closet, maybe in a plastic bag ? They were enclosed with it. Most of my extractng supers are circa 1977 or earlier, and some were hit with brood way back then. I leave them on the hives for weeks in fall to get cleaned, and then store them my extracting room, or garage, which are not moth tight. The blocks of wax in my extracting room get hit a bit.


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## hrogers (Dec 16, 2000)

Howdy dickm ---

If you'd like to rid yourself of the Permacomb, send it me. I'll pay the shipping cost plus two bits per frame for your trouble.

Doc


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Heres another site on Bt:
http://filebox.vt.edu/cals/cses/chagedor/btprimer.html 

Am I mistaken? I thought Certan was taken off the market here in the U.S.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It was approved for use in beehives, but apparently the cost of to maintain that certification was high enough and the market small enough to not warrant keeping it on the market. I buy it from Canada.


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## John Seets (Jan 9, 2003)

My 2 cents for what its worth:

I noticed on an ealier post that it was conjectured that the PermaComb does not hold as much honey as an "equal size wax frame". I beg to differ here simply because just this past summer, I weighed numerous frames before and after extraction just to get some idea of just how much honey the PC holds. 

Referencing the picture of the "honey-laden" PermaComb super at the link:http://www.bee-l.com/bulletinboard/seets/permacomb.htm

The two end-frames averaged approxiamtely 6- 3/4 pounds (sample size: 30). Lightest was 6-1/4. Heaviest was 7-1/2.

The center frames (where the wax is drawn 1/4 to 3/8" above the plastic surface - no ribs showing) ranged between 5-1/4 to 6 pounds (sample size (69).

Frames (not pictured) where there was sub-surface cappings averaged ~4 pounds (sample size: 17). 

I thought I recalled reading that the average for full-depth wax combs was around 5 pounds and 3 for mediums.

I think part of the reason that the PermaComb holds more honey than a comparable wax frame is beacause there are cells that the bees fill with honey where the top, bottom and "side" bars are on "standard" frames.

Additionally, I would like to add that in all the years I've been using the PC, I have yet to have an absconding.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tia, your situation with the wax moth is exactly what got me started with the PC so many years ago. At the time, it was standard to use paradichlorobenzene (PDB) for protection against the moth larvae. One year, I was away on travel and could not renew the PDB in my stored stacked supers for qutie awhile. When I finally came home, the mess and destruction was ungodly. I was devesated. A couple hundred full-depth, fully-drawn out supers wiped out. I came very close to bagging the whole beekeeping thing. On top of everything else, I REALLY hated using the PDB in any case because it is a poison that ends up in the honey I was eating and selling.

One evening shortly thereafter when I was in a deep dark depression and considering honorable hari-kari (for beekeeping), I stumbled on a PermaComb ad in "Gleanings in BeeCulture" (now "BeeCulture"). I knew then that this was the answer. My first purchase was 1000 combs and I haven't regretted it at all. I'm still using the same comb I bought 25 years ago.

I'm not going to blow smoke and say that bees LOVE brand new plastic. They don't. It takes some management changes to optimize their initial acceptance of it. Similar in many respects to unwaxed foundation. However, once over the acceptance hump, the bees will use it as readily as drawn wax comb without the all-wax disadvantages. This stuff lasts forever and now I don't use ANY chemicals for wax moth control.

Hope some of this info is usefull and if not, maybe a bit entertaining.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Thanks, John. Now you've reconfused me! I was thinking I'd stick with crimp wire because the issues of warping and acceptance bother me. But you make it sound like I could, with a little effort, make my job easier in the long run. Hmmmm. Think I'm going to have to contemplate the issue further. . .


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## shoefly (Jul 9, 2004)

I'm still a little confused about using PermaComb in the brood box. How do you clean out the cocoon lining from the cells? After about four years you probably need to do something, to clean them up, right? Is this where the wax moths activity can be used in a beneficial way? ...or do you use a power sprayer or dishwasher?

Second question I have is regarding the overwintering in PermaComb. Permacomb is heavier than wood and wax combs. Heavier materials generally transmits heat or cold more easily. Does the heavier materials require more effort for the bees in keeping the hive cool or warm?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I'm still a little confused about using PermaComb in the brood box. How do you clean out the cocoon lining from the cells?

I wouldn't. The bees will chew them out when the cell gets too small. Until then it's just adding to the regression back to normal size. But you CAN boil PermaComb and John has been known to clean his out with a power washer.

>After about four years you probably need to do something, to clean them up, right?

No. The bees will chew them out if the cell is too small.

>Is this where the wax moths activity can be used in a beneficial way?

Not really. The moths don't do much on PermaComb. They go along the outside and occasionally go into a cell, but they can't really do much to it.

> ...or do you use a power sprayer or dishwasher?

A power washer would be a good choice.

>Second question I have is regarding the overwintering in PermaComb. Permacomb is heavier than wood and wax combs. Heavier materials generally transmits heat or cold more easily. Does the heavier materials require more effort for the bees in keeping the hive cool or warm? 

I've been overwintering on PermaComb and haven't noticed any problems.  But I would be curious as to the differences in thermal qualities with PermaComb, Plastic foundation and wax in a cold hive in winter. Unfortunately no one has done any studies that I know of on the subject.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

John Seets,
Since you brought up the observation about no absconding with PC, can you explain how PC has curbed this from happening. As a seller(you) of PC, I am interested in how this works, or was this a casual observation that anyone who never had a hive abscond could make, and you just happen to be a seller, thus making this casual oservation work in your interest? (some beekeepers have never had a hive abscond) 

Is this in the PC hand-outs or information distributed by the company?

In making the measurments of the wieght of honey with PC, you made the measurement yourself. No problem there. But then you make a vague reference to "thought I recalled reading" to some wieght for a wax comb. Is this correct or not. Are you sure, and if your going to make a comparision, would it not be in you best interest to know exactly how much honey is held by a wax foundation comb frame? Again if this is true, is it part of the literature and sales promotional material?
(Could you also say, was it 9 frame or ten frame comparisions you are mentioning?)

Thanks.

[This message has been edited by BjornBee (edited November 27, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by BjornBee (edited November 27, 2004).]


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## John Seets (Jan 9, 2003)

Tia, the last thing I want to do is "reconfuse" you. PermaComb is simply an alternative to the standard drawn wax frames and controversial since more and more beekeepers are now using it. More expensive initally but pays for itself many times over in the long run. Tell you what, contact me via private email with your address and I'll send you a case to try out - my nickel ([email protected]). After all - it IS the Christmas season!
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Shoefly; What Mike said. He has the right of it. Let me add that only once did I pressure wash PC. I had left supers out for the bees to clean up after extracting. Unfortunatley it rained on the comb and mold eventually started to grow on the frames. I didn't clean it thinking the bees would do that next season. Well, they not only didn't, they would not use it at all. And this was comb that they had been filling with honey for years. After pressure washing it, they used it again (next season).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thermal qualities:

Mike / Shoefly, I broached this subject some years ago with the originator of PermaComb. The only thing I could get from him is that thermal transmission is "comparable" to wax comb. That is all I could get. However, I didn't press the issue as my intersted was soley practical at the time. A study would be interesting.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BjornBeee: Allow me to address your post piecemeal...

<Since you brought up the observation about no absconding with PC, can you explain how PC has curbed this from happening.

This sounds like it is a somewhat common occurrance. I cannot make any claim that PermaComb prevents absconding.

<As a seller(you) of PC, I am interested in how this works, or was this a casual observation that anyone who never had a hive abscond could make, and you just happen to be a seller, thus making this casual oservation work in your interest? (some beekeepers have never had a hive abscond) 

The Hive and the HoneyBee, p:94 defines absconding as "the abandoning of a nest by a colony which forms a swarm and presumably reestablishes itself elsewhere, and is generally due to either disturbance or lack of resources." In my own case, I can say that just last year, I believe I had 2 hives abscond due to lack of resources (honey stores). It was a cold, wet spring here on the east coast and the bees just could not collect. Honey-take-wise, the worst year I can remember. The hives which absconded showed no dead at all. Just empty hives devoid of all stores (about July). I can't positively rule out robbing or starvation -in-place death but I would have expected to see dead and the hives were medium strong 3 weeks prior. My conclusion was absconding.

Furthermore, being a "seller" of PermaComb in no way affects my observations or reporting thereof. I don't believe I was "making" anything work in my favor. I tell it like it is. I was simply and honestly responding to an earlier post with my own observations.

< Is this in the PC hand-outs or information distributed by the company?

No, I do not address absconding at all in the literature that I distribute as I do not consider it an issue.

<In making the measurments of the wieght of honey with PC, you made the measurement yourself. No problem there. But then you make a vague reference to "thought I recalled reading" to some wieght for a wax comb. Is this correct or not. Are you sure, and if your going to make a comparision, would it not be in you best interest to know exactly how much honey is held by a wax foundation comb frame? 

Its been a very long time since I have used all wax comb in honey supers. When I did, I did not weigh them. However, most standard published beekeeping texts DO state that FD wax frames run 5 pounds and mediums 3. I checked and I invite you to do the same. Perhaps it would be to my advantage to know the exact amount in the wax combs and include it in my literature for comparison. However, if I listed ALL the advantages of PermaComb and sent it to those who request info, the postage alone would bankrupt me! 


<Again if this is true,...

It is. I do not fabricate data. That would be a sin. I encourage you to try some. See for yourself.

<Could you also say, was it 9 frame or ten frame comparisions you are mentioning?

Definitely 9 frame as the picture at the link I referenced shows. I recommend that all PC users use 9 frame configurations. The bees usually draw the comb out a bit above the plastic "surface" easing uncapping. However, using a punch makes this distinction inconsequential.

Thanx.


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## BjornBee (Feb 7, 2003)

John Seets, Thank you. Right/wrong, good/bad, slanted/unslanted, just wants the facts. I speak to alot of people and many are looking for answers in this fragmented bee stuff. Even if I do not use the stuff, its in my best interest to know what I'm talking about.
I have personally passed this site onto many beekeepers and only hope everyone can be up front with details, and do whats best for the industry. 
I did meet you several years ago at a maryland beekeeping meeting.(If I remember correctly) I was with a Jack Utter, who maybe you know(?) He goes down to Maryland a bit more than me.

As for absconding, one area that many need to look at is the Kashmir virus. It can cause a hive to leave, with not one bee left behind. It is mite transmitted. Usually you will see robbing afterwards, but no dead bees and no bees left on the frame.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

John, what a generous offer! Due to the fact that I have no pride and am not ashamed to accept charity, I'll be emailing you my contact information. Since I had so much trouble this year (still battling the YJs), I'll undoubtedly be starting some new hives in the spring and it'll be interesting to see how a total PC hive does compared to one on crimp wire. I'll be printing out this thread, too. Such a wealth of information; it needs to go into my notebook for reading & rereading. Thanks to all of you experienced beekeepers out there. Don't know what I'd do without your sage advice.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Ooops! I forgot to ask again, since no one answered the first time, what's a honey punch?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.plastools.com/honey_punch.htm


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Thanks, Michael. Couldn't find it at Brushy Mountain. What a cool tool. Expensive though. I can understand, though, how much easier it would make uncapping/extracting PC would be. Thanks for your help.


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## sugar bandit #2 (Oct 4, 2003)

I think I read in some PC post several months ago that some are cutting the tabs off the bottom of the PC and some aren't. What have some of you found out on this?


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>I think I read in some PC post several months ago that some are cutting the tabs off the bottom of the PC and some aren't. What have some of you found out on this?

That was probably me. If it is used exclusivly for brood there is no reason to trim the tabs off. If it is used for honey supers it is MUCH easier to scrape the wax off the frames if they are trimmed off.

But there is also good reason to leave the wax attached to the bottom of the frames. Bees in their natural environment make their comb in long verticle unbroken sheets. For them to accomplish this in a man made hive, they need to fill between each frame with comb. This is for them to be able to travel both up and down the hive and it gives them a place to lay drone and queen cells.

The bees need the wax 'ladder' to be able to move up into the next box of frames, and they won't start using the next box of PC until the bridge is built. Once that bridge is built or the frames were used the year before, they take to it like a duck to water.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I trim the tabs off of about half of them. I wish I had the time to do them all, but they aren't that big of a problem. It's just easier, if you want to clean up a "frame" to be able to scrape the bottom of the PermaComb without the tabs being in the way.

As far as burr ect. it makes no difference.


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## John Seets (Jan 9, 2003)

My vote is to leave the tabs on.
Thanx.


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