# Treatment free intervention for a varroa infested hive



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

brood breaks certainly help with varroa but they delay the inevitable. Therefor forcing a brood break is IN MY OPINION a treatment. non chemical treatment, but treatment non the less. If you want to be treatment free you need to either start with locally adapted TF stock or keep splitting the crap out of your hives ( utilizing the brood break as a stop gap) so you can roll the dice on getting queens mated with locally adapted resistant stock and / or make splits with local TF queens.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

The 2-4 month brood break here in the midwest doesn't seem to do much to stop varroa.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Harley Craig said:


> Therefor forcing a brood break is in fact a treatment. non chemical treatment, but treatment non the less.


The word we use for this is _manipulation._ Treatment is the act of introducing a substance into the hive.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

The Dutch used a method of brood exchange between colonies, along with drone brood for trapping the phoretic mites on the adult bees left in the colony from which the brood was taken. It removed 90% of the mites, or better, when it was done in the spring, and it also helped with swarm control. I have done it with nucs, but not with full sized colonies. I think your colony should make it if the queen gets a cycle or two of brood before winter shutdown.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

cherily said:


> I started keeping bees about 4 years ago when a friend caught a swarm from a first year Georgia package and got me started. I made the decision to go treatment free and have had difficulty keeping the bees alive. (mostly Georgia packages until this year)


You're going to have a tough time being TF if you keep buying packaged bees. I started with that but as quickly as possible have gone to all swarm and cutout bees. I think I've turned the corner this year and will be gaining in numbers more than losing.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Interesting. I've got three packages from Georgia and had troubles with 2/3 and have not checked the 3rd for about a month. One had succession problems. I think it was racism but what else can you call it?
The second did great until I decided it was my queen cell builder, used a cloake board, invited the SHB into the bee bread, and starved them. 

Will check #3 next week after it cools down. Right now all the bugs in the area changed gears. Can tell by the beetles trying to get under the siding. (you know?)
I think the bees are probably fierce right now. 
It's that time.

Everything else I have is swarms and cutouts. Might have to share notes sometime. I have these one "wild" bees that I have no doubt that they will survive but making honey? lol They have other things on their minds and have made 5 colonies this year.

I'm calling what I do chemical treatment free and that defines it pretty well so far.


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## ChuckReburn (Dec 17, 2013)

Really the only "treatment" in a treatment free operation is to requeen with appropriate genetics.

Raising queens from a hive that can't handle varroa will get you no where. Removing brood in September isn't going to help either.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

cherily said:


> I felt I had nothing to lose because this hive seemed doomed from the varroa infestation. Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts or experience on the potential success or failure of this method.


maybe you don't have anything to lose, but have you considered the other beekeepers in your neighborhood? Increasingly there is discussion backed by research that those bees will rob out those hives as they crash and go home with the mites- so in essence you become part of spreading the varroa infestation, and usually at a time when your neighboring beekeepers already treated for mites - and not expecting a reinfestation.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/queens-for-pennies/

Try catching feral survivors with swarm traps and stay away from packages.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

cherily said:


> I made the decision to go treatment free and have had difficulty keeping the bees alive. (mostly Georgia packages until this year)


It is not reasonable to expect bees that have been treated for GENERATIONS to suddenly be able to survive without treatments just because their new keeper has a different philosophy than their old keeper. If you want to be treatment-free, then START with treatment-free stock. 

Obviously a keeper can do whatever he wants with his own stock...but that does not make it right...or humane.

JMO

Rusty


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Barry said:


> The word we use for this is _manipulation._ Treatment is the act of introducing a substance into the hive.



you can call it whatever you want, but it does in fact act as a treatment and goes against the principal of being treatment free. ( which is to have bees that can survive on their own without help from humans) We see this with some of the so called treatment free beekeepers that sell their bees and when their nucs go somewhere else ( sometimes just a mile or 2 away) and all of the sudden they can't thrive without treatments. What happens in this scenario is that the bees never get their colony big enough that treatment is necessary because they are constantly being split for nucs and never get out of the build up phase where the queen stops out produces the mites. It's all semantics I know, now if ones goal was to simply keep chemicals out of their honey and that was their definition of treatment free then I would agree that it was a manipulation but intentionally keeping colonies small by stopping the production of brood it's not a manipulation that is conducive of producing surplus honey ..... JMO of course


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Harley, if you want to participate in this forum, then it is you who will have to adjust your terminology. We've already been through this and set up the unique forum rules. If you're here to help further the focus of this forum, great. If you're here to proclaim all the stuff that doesn't work, go elsewhere.


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## cherily (Oct 29, 2014)

Thanks for all your replies and insights. After several years of package bees, I too realized package bees wouldn't make it between the mites and fierce winters. Finding TF bees is easier said then done since I don't know of any treatment free beekeepers in my immediate location that sell bees. This year I was able to purchase 2 Northern Survivor Nucs. (not necessarily treatment free but had good Northern wintering history)

The only option seems to be to purchase TF queens for which you need resources to make splits. I did purchase 2 queens from Sam Comfort and made splits in early June. Next year I hope to have resources available so when a TF Queen Seller has queens I can react immediately. Unfortunately, I didn't feel I had enough resources to make splits when Michael Palmer recently had queens for sale. 

So each year I am hoping to make advancements in finding TF stock that will survive New Enland Winters...


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## SallyD (Mar 12, 2011)

FlowerPlanter said:


> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/queens-for-pennies/
> 
> Try catching feral survivors with swarm traps and stay away from packages.


Flower planter? How do you know they are feral? I caught 4 swarms this year on my balcony (don't have bees at my house) but I have no idea if they are feral or from another beekeeper close by (which is what I suspect).


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Barry said:


> Harley, if you want to participate in this forum, then it is you who will have to adjust your terminology. We've already been through this and set up the unique forum rules. If you're here to help further the focus of this forum, great. If you're here to proclaim all the stuff that doesn't work, go elsewhere.




That is fair enough, I'm not arguing method what so ever. I don't care what people do in their hives, it doesn't effect me in the least bit, heck I don't even look down on people who treat, I get why they do so I am in no way advocating for people handle their hives like I do. However, like I said you can call it what you want it's your show, but I go to the chiropractor to get my back manipulated in order to treat pain and IMO certain bee related manipulations treat the symptoms, but do nothing to fix the root of the problem. If not putting chemicals in a hive is the definition this forum wants to use, so be it, but IMO the forum should be called chemical free beekeeping then, but My opinion and $0.75 will get me todays news paper.


Oh and FWIW I edited my original response to reflect that it was MY opinion only


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

winevines said:


> maybe you don't have anything to lose, but have you considered the other beekeepers in your neighborhood? Increasingly there is discussion backed by research that those bees will rob out those hives as they crash and go home with the mites- so in essence you become part of spreading the varroa infestation, and usually at a time when your neighboring beekeepers already treated for mites - and not expecting a reinfestation.



"This forum is for those who wish to discuss Treatment-Free Beekeeping, not for them to be required to defend it." as per the unique forum rules http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?253066-Unique-Forum-Rules


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Sour grapes, Harley. Going down this road never ends well.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

cherily said:


> Finding TF bees is easier said then done since I don't know of any treatment free beekeepers in my immediate location that sell bees. This year I was able to purchase 2 Northern Survivor Nucs. (not necessarily treatment free but had good Northern wintering history)
> 
> The only option seems to be to purchase TF queens for which you need resources to make splits. I did purchase 2 queens from Sam Comfort and made splits in early June. Next year I hope to have resources available so when a TF Queen Seller has queens I can react immediately. Unfortunately, I didn't feel I had enough resources to make splits when Michael Palmer recently had queens for sale.
> 
> So each year I am hoping to make advancements in finding TF stock that will survive New Enland Winters...


It is not that complicated. I bought a package and then split it 3 ways a few weeks later, adding VSH queens I bought from Johnny Thompson (Broke-T). If you go to VP Queens, they have a referral page to queen producers all over the country. You just order the package for the right date for your part of the country. Then add 6 weeks to get the date you want your queens and preorder for that date. Then you have VSH genetics in your hives that first season. Yes, that does mean you pay for everything in January, but you get the genetics to do the treatment free that you want without killing package after package.


Rusty


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

EXELENT ADVISE RUSTY !


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

SallyD said:


> Flower planter? How do you know they are feral? I caught 4 swarms this year on my balcony (don't have bees at my house) but I have no idea if they are feral or from another beekeeper close by (which is what I suspect).


You can only make an educated guess if they are feral or not, time is the real test. A few things to look for; 

Small bees that you can see the difference between 5.4 cell bees and 4.9 cell bees. You will won't have 5.4 cell bees that are feral. Most people don't use small cell and if they do there is a chance they could also be TF. 

Mixed matched colored bees, most of my ferals have this to some degree, some more than others. 

Set your traps away from the city and suburbs in an areas you know has ferial hives. Farmland with woods, forests area, near conservation areas...


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## cherily (Oct 29, 2014)

Rusty, thanks for the link to the VP Queens Sources. I've done a lot of searching and don't think I've ever come across this list. I will use some of these sources for next year's purchases!


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> If you want to be treatment-free, then START with treatment-free stock.


I have seen this prescription repeated by numerous forum denizens, and broadly all over the internet.

I can find no printed evidence that the postulate has ever been tested in any formal investigation. 

The Rinderer-de Guzman paper from 2001 compares Russian and Italian survival in a cohort. There have been a number of other tests of VSH vs. Commercial under real-world field conditions. The Seeley bees moved from Arnot to hives famously died (of mites) once brought into domestic colonies. The VSH vs. Commercial trials documented rates of supersedure that would (and did) obviate the influence any original genotype. https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00891899/document

I understand the chain of causation that encourages people to make the declaration, but I don't see a source that demonstrates the chained induction. Inductive logic is famously suspect in scientific inquiry.

What is presented as evidence is anecdotal stories, e.g. "I purchased BeeWeaver last spring, and my bees are still alive". Unfortunately the vast majority of these testimonies go into dead-letter, as the internet "nym" vanishes (sometimes with a plaintive coda, "My hives are dying".)








Chart from Tarpy 2007 Comparison of Parasitic Mites in Russian-Hybrid and Italian Honey
Bee (Hymenoptera: Apidae) Colonies across Three Different
Locations in North Carolina http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/entomology/apiculture/pdfs/Tarpy_et.al.2007b copy.pdf


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>maybe you don't have anything to lose, but have you considered the other beekeepers in your neighborhood? Increasingly there is discussion backed by research that those bees will rob out those hives as they crash and go home with the mites- so in essence you become part of spreading the varroa infestation, and usually at a time when your neighboring beekeepers already treated for mites - and not expecting a reinfestation.

I see it the other way around. Those who are treating are propping up genetics that are the problem. They are also breeding virulent mites. I think people treating are the reason people are still having problems. I heard this same argument my entire time beekeeping. People who didn't treat for AFB all the time were the cause of it. Yet I never treated for it and never got it and the people who were getting AFB and complaining were the treaters, not the nontreaters.

"If you’re not part of the genetic solution of breeding mite-resistant bees, then you’re part of the problem. Every time you allow drones or swarms to issue from a colony that owes its survival to a miticide application, you’re hindering the natural process of evolution toward mite-resistant bees!"--Randy Oliver
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/choosing-your-troops-breeding-mite-fighting-bees/


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> They (treaters) are also breeding virulent mites.


This is an inductive claim, and, like much of inductive logic, is contradicted by the experimental evidence.
*Non-treated* colonies developed _hyper_ virulence of DWV strains in Hawaii, New Zealand, and northern Scotland at the time of Varroa invasion.

The role of horizontal transmission in spreading Varroa provides an incentive for the parasite to be deadly. The more deadly you are the faster you spread.


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## Rusty Hills Farm (Mar 24, 2010)

cherily said:


> So each year I am hoping to make advancements in finding TF stock that will survive New Enland Winters...


Again, winter survival is not as hard as it might seem. It does take understanding how to prepare your hives. They need to be well-fed and have plenty of stores, be dry, and be pest and predator free. When you are raising your winter bees in the fall, this is incredibly important. Bees seem to handle cold pretty well; it's wet they cannot tolerate, whether they are in your part of the country or mine. And sugar blocks can mean the difference between a thriving hive come spring and a dead one.

HTH

Rusty


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Rusty Hills Farm said:


> If you want to be treatment-free, then START with treatment-free stock.


I'm on the fence about this. At one time, there was no such thing as "treatment-free stock." You worked with what you had. This is the route I still want to go. Work with what I have around me and improve. I also don't buy that the genetics is everything.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Yep, JW could be talking about me.  I bought BeeWeaver bees. This will be my second Winter. I am very anxious about next Spring.

Alex


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Barry said:


> I'm on the fence about this. At one time, there was no such thing as "treatment-free stock." You worked with what you had. This is the route I still want to go. Work with what I have around me and improve. I also don't buy that the genetics is everything.


Barry takes this all seriously and has spent a great deal of time refining his approach. I think the stock warning to new beekeepers is a good quick answer for those who aren't inclined to spend the time to catch swarms and the like. Like most stock answers, it doesn't go in depth on the topic and doesn't stand up entirely to in-depth criticism.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Brood breaks are an excellent method for controlling mites, however it always sets your hives back. If you're not counting on a honey crop or good numbers for a pollination contract etc. then it's actually a good way to learn quite a bit about your bees and how the colony works. Local stock works the best in my opinion, if it were earlier in the year I would suggest pinching your queen so you could get an infusion of local genetics into your hive once it had built up. Drone comb is also a decent tool in any IPM practice.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

JWChesnut said:


> The role of horizontal transmission in spreading Varroa provides an incentive for the parasite to be deadly. The more deadly you are the faster you spread.


Until you run out of hosts


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Michael Bush said:


> Those who are treating are propping up genetics that are the problem. They are also breeding virulent mites.


That may depend on what you're using to treat. Not all treatments are the same....


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

JWChesnut said:


> I can find no printed evidence that the postulate has ever been tested in any formal investigation.


the same would have been true of einstein's theory of general relativity, until of course that evidence became available.

the point being that the only certainty resulting from a lack of evidence is that there is a lack of evidence.

this is a case in which abductive reasoning more appropriately comes into play.

"Abductive reasoning (also called abduction,[1] abductive inference[2] or retroduction[3]) is a form of logical inference which goes from an observation to a theory which accounts for the observation, ideally seeking to find the simplest and most likely explanation."

from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning

if one accepts that there are populations of bees surviving off treatments and not being extinguished by varroa mites and the associated viruses (the observation) then the simplest and most likely explanation is that these populations already had or have over time developed resistance to said mites and viruses (the theory which accounts for the observation).

"I’ve been encouraged in recent years by the number of beekeepers who appear to be successfully keeping locally-adapted stocks of bees without treatment for varroa. I am a strong supporter of their efforts, and see them as the wave of the future."

from: http://scientificbeekeeping.com/queens-for-pennies/

i respect the fact large scale operations cannot afford to risk the massive losses that would likely occur if they suddenly stopped treating their non-adapted stock. we hobbiests and sideliners on the other hand are in a better position to tinker with our stock and via selective propagation could very well accomplish what randy envisions in his statement above.

those of you with an interest in keeping bees off treatments and lucky enough to find beekeepers near your location already having success in doing so have got it made, just obtain your bees from them and follow their practices. those of you who do not have that resource available will have a little tougher row to hoe but it may be doable, and some of you may possibly find yourself in jwc's boat and discover that whatever it is that allows for resistance just doesn't happen in your location.

i suppose more than anything our own individual experiences form our own individual realities and for me it's hard to understand how anyone could doubt that there are bees demonstrating resistance, but putting myself in your shoes jwc i suppose i would have a hard time understanding how anyone could believe that there are such bees.


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> if one accepts that there are populations of bees surviving off treatments and not being extinguished by varroa mites and the associated viruses (the observation) then the simplest and most likely explanation is that these populations already had or have over time developed resistance to said mites and viruses (the theory which accounts for the observation).


I think the simplest explanation is the swarm frequency balances the rate of mortality. _Apis cerana _in Japan is reported to swarm six or more times per year. We can deduce from that effort devoted to colony division that the background mortality (due to failure to establish, disease and predation) in _Apis cerana_ is exceptionally high.

My supposition is that when "feral survivors" are studied, the swarm frequency will be found to be enormous.

Many of the new generation of TF absolutists are busy collecting swarms and promoting "expansion" splitting. Swarm collection is a sub-economic activity (the opportunity costs are enormous); as soon as the swarm input subsidy is released, the sustainability of the intrinsic apiary is tested.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

JWChesnut said:


> I think the simplest explanation is the swarm frequency balances the rate of mortality. _Apis cerana _in Japan is reported to swarm six or more times per year. We can deduce from that effort devoted to colony division that the background mortality (due to failure to establish, disease and predation) in _Apis cerana_ is exceptionally high.
> 
> My supposition is that when "feral survivors" are studied, the swarm frequency will be found to be enormous.
> 
> Many of the new generation of TF absolutists are busy collecting swarms and promoting "expansion" splitting. Swarm collection is a sub-economic activity (the opportunity costs are enormous); as soon as the swarm input subsidy is released, the sustainability of the intrinsic apiary is tested.


 
I agree. My bees started to have harder times immediately I decided to make max one nuc out of each hive. Earlier several splits were made. Cerana bees, and other survivors have better resistance than normal bees, but the need for splitting (swarming) makes them all uneconomical. In my experience, (nearly) total crash can come as late as 7 years after stopping treatments(2008/2015).


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Cherily, straight up, the hive you describe is almost certainly doomed.

Such hives may be saved even this late in the season by adding some healthy brood from another hive to get undamaged bees into it, plus removing the mites via chemicals.

But I know you won't be doing that. The other manipulations proposed just won't have time to get the hive into winterable condition. You could still proceed if you wish but just see it as a learning experience, and do things in such a way you will not be spreading any nasties to any other hives. And organise the safe storage of your combs till they can be re-used next season.

Source of treatment free queens? Try Beeweavers. 
http://www.beeweaver.com/


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

JWChesnut said:


> I think the simplest explanation is the swarm frequency balances the rate of mortality.
> 
> My supposition is that when "feral survivors" are studied, the swarm frequency will be found to be enormous.
> 
> Swarm collection is a sub-economic activity (the opportunity costs are enormous); as soon as the swarm input subsidy is released, the sustainability of the intrinsic apiary is tested.



yes, excessive swarming is frequently cited along with poor honey production and extreme defensiveness as reasons why bees demonstrating resistance to varroa may not suitable for use in the managed setting. 

if true then i would tend to agree, and add that aggressive splitting being used to allow the bees to stay ahead of the mites while sacrificing honey production is not a model that would be applicable to most apiaries.

so far my experience with feral survivor stock has not been plagued with these problems. the productivity and workability of my bees has been comparable and perhaps even better than average to what others running more conventional stock and methodology in my area are seeing.

i have reported that swarm control proved to be a bit of a challenge especially in the early years and prior to getting enough drawn comb, but that is improving and i was able to achieve about 80% no swarming this year and the commensurate increase in harvestable honey that goes along with that.

it will be interesting to see if these colonies that were prevented from swarming are more likely to have issues with increased mite loads in the fall/winter. i have several colonies that have mulitple winters of survival off treatments some of which were prevented from swarming in seasons past but my apiary is young by most standards and i'm just now getting to numbers of colonies from which meaningful observations can be made.

one of the reasons i chose to chronicle my 2015 experience was to show that the above concerns don't necessarily play out, as well as having an interest in how my operation fares economically when compared to operations utilizing more conventional stock and methodology.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

squarepeg said:


> getting enough drawn comb, but that is improving and i was able to achieve about 80% no swarming this year and the commensurate increase in harvestable honey that goes along with that.


I'm helping a friend get established with TF hives and I'd say this is the biggest hurdle. Always seem to be short on comb. It looks like she is finally getting ahead of that curve this year.


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## cherily (Oct 29, 2014)

"Again, winter survival is not as hard as it might seem. It does take understanding how to prepare your hives. They need to be well-fed and have plenty of stores, be dry, and be pest and predator free. When you are raising your winter bees in the fall, this is incredibly important. Bees seem to handle cold pretty well; it's wet they cannot tolerate, whether they are in your part of the country or mine. And sugar blocks can mean the difference between a thriving hive come spring and a dead one. "

Thanks Again Rusty for the helpful advice. My winter configuration looks something like this:


Starting at the bottom:

Screened bottom board with grid board in
Mouse Guard over bottom entrance
Deep Brood and Whatever honey they have stored
Medium Mainly capped honey
Medium Mainly capped honey
Sugar Blocks on top of the frames
Medi Rim or Imrie Shim (to give room for sugar)
Inner Cover with enlarged notch for ventilation
Quilt Box (I use either feather bed pillows or Old Bulky Wool Sweaters)

I have gotten bees through the winter 2 of the 3 years I had them.
The first year they wound up queenless in April and I only had one hive so I didn't have any way to help them.
The second year I did have one hive survive, but it didn't make it through the next winter.

I have left them with all of the honey, my goal is to build a sustainable apiary before harvesting any honey.

The comb has been a transition from 5.1 cell to 4.9 cell and now all new comb is foundationless.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

cherily, i'm in the south so i'll defer to those with experience overwintering in the north but i think you are describing a pretty good winter configuration there.

one of the most important considerations is having things set up in such a way that the warm moist air rising up from the cluster of bees doesn't condense into water droplets when it hits the cold 'ceiling' inside the hive. if that happens the freezing cold water will drip back down onto the bees and kill them.

this is avoided by having ventilation at the top which allows some of that moisture to escape, and by having some insulation at the top which keeps the 'ceiling' warmer than the sides of the hive allowing the moisture to collect on the sides and run down harmlessly to the bottom and not on the bees.

what i do here is cut 1" notches on the front and back of the inner covers, and i put 1/2" of pink styrofoam insulation in between the inner cover and the telescoping outer cover. i also have my hives facing southeast so they catch the morning sun and there is a good wind break (a tree line) behind them which protects them from the cold northerly winds.

my question to the northern beeks who use quilt boxes would be do they collect and hold moisture and end up with ice in them? that would be my concern about using something like old sweaters up there.

i think the other posters have made some good suggestions about your next purchases of bees coming from suppliers that have success keeping bees off treatments. even with stock like that you will have some losses and to be sustainable you'll need to consider incorporating some way of making increase from your own bees. good luck!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

"my question to the northern beeks who use quilt boxes would be do they collect and hold moisture and end up with ice in them? that would be my concern about using something like old sweaters up there."

Squarepeg, there definitely is not a problem with ice collecting in the quilt box. The exposed surface area of the quilts contents is so large compared to a smooth surface that any moisture is carried away by the free ventilation above the quilt. The quilt is NOT to collect and hold moisture but to provide a transfer medium that wicks it to the upper surface and returns moisture to the great outdoors.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

In the old days I got away with murder. Mouse guards? Shims? Sugar blocks? Wrapping? Insulating? Medicating? Treating? Can't I just go back to 1975 please.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

aunt betty said:


> Can't I just go back to 1975 please.


Aunt Betty, I'm sitting in my closet with my time machine fired up. I don't have enough juice in the batteries to wait much longer, but if you can get here in the next 15 minutes I can drop you in 1975.
I'll be going much farther back myself.


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