# top bar disaster!



## seal62 (Apr 17, 2011)

You could cut some chicken wire ..staple one side..insert comb .. staple the other .


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## Jim 134 (Dec 1, 2007)

Who HOT is it ??? over 95 I bet 


BEE HAPPY Jim 134


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

I would move the fallen combs away from combs they are currently building, otherwise they could attach them to the fallen combs and create a bigger disaster. Once they take out some of the honey I'd remove the combs entirely. I never worry about re-attaching -- it's generally not worth the effort.

Best,
Matt


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## pink_sky (Apr 29, 2010)

Seal - excellent idea with the chicken wire! I will keep that in mind if this ever happens to brood comb. 

Jim - I'm in San Francisco, highs of 64.

Cacklewack - Thanks, I'll try to move the combs over and not stress that I'm not reattaching. How long do you think it will take for the bees to clean out the comb?


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## seal62 (Apr 17, 2011)

Frank told me about that idea . I made up some for a cut out i was doing .


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## flyingbrass (Jul 2, 2011)

if top bar hives are called KENYA TOP BAR HIVES, how do they deal with the heat in Kenya? It's got to be African hot over there.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

pink sky, 64 degrees....really!?? I'm jealous!!!

I'm all (for now) inclined to framed hives and I can see the delicacy of TBH comb attachments, but...what about feral colony combs in a soffit or hollow tree, if they can attach them sufficiently to stay attached in the wild why can't they in a TBH with bars designed for them to attach to? Or, does the same thing happen in the wild when the temps go up??? Just curious....

Ed


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## judyv47954 (Jun 5, 2011)

I'm thinking that in the wild, there is more insulation inside a tree, plus probably not as wide a span to draw comb. Also, they would always be shady. 

Yes, I would like to know how they keep it nice in Kenya, too, IF they do. I'll bet they keep it in totla shade.


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## deejaycee (Apr 30, 2008)

judyv47954 said:


> Yes, I would like to know how they keep it nice in Kenya, too, IF they do. I'll bet they keep it in totla shade.


1. They are often not managed intensively or as often as elsewhere. 

2. They are often not brood managed at all, so what is taken out of the hive is only the honey off the end combs - if it falls when taking it out, not a problem. 

3. They are often or usually hung in trees, hence shaded, or I have seen them placed in hollows inthe ground, sometimes with a cairn of rocks built on top, so insulated that way.

(should mention the above is from reading, not from personal experience)

Also, in terms of natural hives in trees, the bees attach the comb along the side of the cavity as well as at the top for structural strength as they feel the need. 

What's the first thing you do when you get comb out of your topbar hive? - cut away any of those side attachments and destabilise the comb. 

That's where frames have a huge advantage - even if building natural comb, the bees get to keep their side attachments to the frame and the comb stays stronger for it. - and that is from personal experience.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I love how there's always people in the top bar forums telling people not to use top bar hives. I find it totally weird. There are different ways of doing things, and each presents its challenges. Your interest in a particular challenge or lack thereof is why you choose one or the other. 

Its easier to have a comb collapse in a tbh. That's part of the deal. It's easier to break your back with a lang. Of course, if you use a lang, you won't have to deal with so many people making edgy little comments about the beehive you use... So that's a big bonus.

It's like picking on a carver for not using a router. It's just weird.

Adam


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

New comb is always soft. New comb full of nectar is soft and heavy. Comb on a hot day is always soft. New heavy comb on a hot day should be left alone. Work it early in the morning when it's still cool. Try to leave honey storage alone until the comb has aged a bit. Keep TBHs in the shade.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

I agree that you should move the dropped comb maybe to the back of the hive and stand it up brood will still hatch. I have to make sure and cut the comb that they have attached to the side walls before trying to lift any comb, sometimes its not much just enough that they feel the comb will not drop but it is often enough to pull the comb off the bar as you lift.


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## Robee (Dec 9, 2007)

I harvested a few bars recently and the last bar full came out easily. It was newer comb than the others and wasn't attached to anything but the top bar. The next comb in was attached in one spot about a half inch long. I picked up the bar and 2/3 of the comb was still standing in place. oops. I held it with one hand and ran my hive tool down the sides of the hive to detach the comb. It was still hard to pick up with the comb squishing and getting honey all over my gloves. (this is one reason that I like to use plastic gloves for this, the yellow playtex kind. It was about 80F to 85F degrees that day. I ussually leave the hives alone in the heat and had momentarily forgot how they attach comb to the sides of the hive.


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## Montana Bee (Feb 1, 2011)

I had the same thing happen to me the other day. What a mess. I tried reattaching the honey filled comb to the bar using hair clips and the weight of the comb was too much and it fell back to the floor killing several bees. The bees in my top bar hive have decided to attach their comb to the glass in my observation window. It is great seeing the bees build comb up close. I have come to the conclusion that the less I mess with the TBH the better off the bees will be! I don't want to kill anymore bees needlessly. This hive was new this year. The girls have drawn out about 18 of the 30 top bars so far. I'm intrigued with the chicken wire idea. I may try that next year on another top bar hive.


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

Any comb that falls with honey I either keep or make it up to feed back to the bees. I find that empty comb or brood comb is much easier to work with then comb that has honey in it. I do not like to lose brood so I will take the time to re-attach it but for the honey comb it's just more mess then I want to deal with so I eat it. I think the bees understand.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

Okay, I'll jump in to the public discussion. I think it's one thing to attach brood comb or mostly empty comb to a top bar with chicken wire, string, or whatever. But I do not think it is practical to reattach filled honey comb to a top bar. At least here in Iowa  it's far too heavy and fragile.

My plan, as far as I've been able to go with it in my first year of beekeeping, is to remove honey comb if the TBH is chock full. Or remove the comb if a large chunk breaks and there's no room in the hive to leave it inside for the bees to clean up. I would prefer to take capped honey, but I'll take uncapped honey if I have to, as was largely the case when I harvested honey this weekend. Both of my TBHs are nearly full.

I want to extract the honey, store it, and feed it back to the bees in late summer and early fall if they need it for winter stores. As a backyard beekeeper, I'd rather give them their own honey than sugar syrup. If the honey is uncapped, it may be "wet" enough to mold or ferment if left for long at room temperature, so I'm storing this honey in the freezer.

I don't know that leaving a TBH alone for longish stretches is a good idea, because serious cross comb can be just as much of a mess to clean up on a cool day as working with new honey comb can be on a warm day. I am finding that even a 2 week interval may be too long if there is a good nectar flow and the bees are rapidly making new comb. There's a happy medium that I hope will come with experience and practice.

Feedback appreciated from others who have something of value to contribute. As Adam said -- and I agree -- unhelpful, unkind, edgy comments are all too often being made on the TBH threads.


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## Beethinking (Jun 2, 2008)

Good comments, everyone. The most common issue I see with horizontal top bar hives is a lack of education. Many seem to have the idea that they can dump in some bees, leave them alone for the year and then open it up to harvest every once in a while. This, of course, leads to disaster when they open their hive _for the first time_ and find that the last half of their hive is entirely cross-combed shut. 

I receive dozens of calls each year from customers and non-customers alike, livid that they can't open their hive without combs falling off. I inquire as to whether they monitored for straight comb attachment and fixed it when the problem first arose. Of course they didn't. 

Horizontal top bar hives need frequent monitoring (if you want removable combs!), and sometimes a little adjusting. If you want a hive you can just leave alone with no regard for removable combs, get a Warre -- or better yet, build a Warre with spales and leave them alone indefinitely!

The top bar hives in my back yard I frequently monitor, and as such, the combs are all straight and easily removable. Easier to remove than the frames of my Langstroth hive! I also have some top bar hives at some more remote locations that I can't visit as often. I know when I visit them that there may be some cross comb -- possibly some collapsing comb! It's my own fault. 

Cheers,
Matt


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## rtoney (Apr 20, 2011)

Here is a link to my cross comb ordeal it can be corrected with some work
http://youtu.be/nn9unz_3S5U


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## Montana Bee (Feb 1, 2011)

Great advice. Thats why I come to the forum to learn as much as I can. I will definetely get back into the hive and make sure things are straightened out. Thanks for the thoughtful responses.


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## garden angel (Jun 5, 2011)

Amen adam!


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

So how often do you recomend going into a TBH? I live in North Texas. I get into my hives every Sunday morning before 10am. It's still
90 degrees here even at night and early morning. I'm having trouble with honey combs collapsing about one every other week.
The brood combs seem rock solid. haven't had any of them collapse. Half filled honey combs don't fall. Just full nectar/honey, about two thirds capped. I take them out. Bees get upset but, I don't want them leaning on the brood combs. Hopefully, they can build some comb
in Sept. and Oct. so they can get through the winter. I only go in once a week right now. Got my bees from R. Weaver and he recommends
only going into your hives no more than once a week. If I open the hives more than once a week. The other times will be in the evening
and at 102 degrees. Any recommendations or am I stuck? I do know that I'm gonna go with framed hives next spring.


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## FindlayBee (Aug 2, 2009)

What I do when a comb of honey breaks off in my top bar hive, and I cannot remove it easily, is just move it to the far end of the hive and allow the bees to clean it out. Once the bees have cleaned out the comb, I go back in and take it out. Many times the comb has been attached on the sides, but that is what a hive tool is for.

I use a long hive tool designed for use with a top bar hive. I use it to cut the bur comb from the sides of the hive. Over time, I have found that the bees tend to stop attaching it to the sides if I keep cutting it off. The comb gets repaired on the edges, but is not reattached to the sides of the hive.

I split one of my top bar hives this year and the hive I added the split to was smaller than the one I added comb and brood to (my mistake on assembly). The combs from the donor hive hit the sides and sealed each comb into the hive. I did not have time that day to correct this issue, and hoped that the gap above the screened bottom was enough to allow the bees to pass. I checked back about a week later and expected to have fun cutting out the comb. The bees had actually corrected the issue on their own. There was space on either side of the comb for bees to pass and no side attached.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

Steven -- My goal is also to check my hives about every 7 days. I agree with you -- I don't want to open the hives more often than that either, heat or no heat. On the other hand, we went on vacation in mid July and I didn't get back to the hives for about 14 days, and I'd say that was too long, especially at this time of the year when my bees are foraging a lot. 

The bees made several fully completed pieces of lovely new comb during that time -- but each piece was attached to two bars rather than just one. Fixing that was rather messy, especially with the heat we've been having. It's been almost as hot here as Texas, some days.  In retrospect, I suppose I could have just left the combs as is and just remember I need to pull two bars per comb rather than one. Live 'n learn.

One thought I had about your post -- Is there a way for you to avoid messing with the filled honey comb during hot weather, unless you absolutely have to in order to make room for more honey or whatever? If you need to inspect the brood nest and want avoid the honey bars entirely ... I have verrryyyy slowly pulled the bar at the other end of the hive or one out of the center of the hive -- about where I think the honey storage ends and the brood nest begins. As long as I'm real slow and easy about it, the bees will move down and out of the way pretty well.

I haven't (yet!!!) had a comb collapse on its own in a closed hive. That must be depressing. 

One thing I've read about TBHs in extra-hot climates is that it may be a good idea to make them an inch or two shallower than what many plans call for. The point is to not have quite so much weight hanging off each inch of bar. I seem to recall "outofabluesky" (Texas) on YouTube and Marty Hardison of New Mexico talking about that. You could make up for that by making the TBH wider and/or a bit longer.

Other ideas I've read about -- siting TBHs so they are shaded from mid-day to late afternoon. Making sure there is plenty of ventilation between the bars and the roof/lid. Making top bars that are fairly thick (top to bottom dimension) to add extra wood to moderate the heat radiating into the space between the bars and roof.

Since you're going with frames next year, these ideas are probably a moot point for you now, but I'll mention them in case others might want to think about these ideas.


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

Thanks, DeeAnna. Didn't mean to highjack this thread.
This is my first year beekeeping. I just wasn't expecting the amount of finesse (Spelling?) that top bars would require.
I'll Still have the top bars that I already have, and if any nucs need to be made from them. They'll be of top bar format.
I am gonna expand with regular framed hives though. It's just a bunch of stuff has happened this year that I was hoping
to not have to deal with. Absconding, constant cross combing, collapsing combs,warping bars, DROUGHT!
I'm not against top bars. I just got a lot of experiance these few months real quick. Next year will be better.
I've figured out what to do about most things that can happen now. I wish I could have had to deal with swarming this year.
The drought took care of that for me. Right now I'm working on preparations to overwinter. Hopefully, I can get into swarming, mites, 
and more next spring.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

Yes, I agree, Steve -- I do think TBHs require more finesse than Langs. I sometimes feel like a little kid riding a bicycle down a steep hill without training wheels -- the ride sure is fun, but I hope I don't fall off! It sounds like your plate got heaped with many other problems this year that badly complicated your situation. Boy, I'd be discouraged too, but I admire your willingness to keep on keeping bees.


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

Me Too, DeeAnna. The best times I have are with my bees. Even when I'm standing there, scratching my head thinking "What the ___?"
This year was intended to be a learning year. Kinda like being in school. If I have bees next spring to start fixing swarming and splitting
I will have given myself an "A" for the year. Not discouraged. Just didn't realize something that seemed simple would be so complicated.
Heck, I got to do my first cut out on my own hive.LOL My current course is how to make a top feeder for these top bar hives. Something
that I dont have to move bars or the follower board to feed them this winter. I don't think they are gonna be far enough along to make
it through the winter. I don't want to count on a mild winter or open feeding. I've learned now that these things I've had problems
with are part of it and not really any sort of disaster. I know next year will be better because of what I've learned and fixed
this year. So, I'm not gonna stress about heavy capped honey combs falling in the height of Texas' summer heat where even
the air conditioners in the houses and buildings are having trouble keeping up. (I'm trying to get back on topic.LOL)
Thanx DeeAnna. People like you and Michael Bush and Barry are what makes this site so wonderful. Steven


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