# What would you make of this?



## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

What would they be spraying for to be killing bees?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Collect up a sample of about 100 bees, Do NOT put them in alcohol. Call the USDA in Gastonia NC. , get shipping instructions(I forgot what they want, keep them cold?), and send the bees and 400 dollars to them.

Crazy Roland


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## Swampsquash (Oct 25, 2014)

Will the bee lab in maryland test them for free?


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Sorry about your dead bees - I hope it doesn't get worse.

But, what is the blue pollen from? I've never seen that.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Me neither. I suspect a pesticide of some sort.

Find out who was applying lawn chemicals in your neighborhood. Keep the sample in a paper towel in a paper bag and frozen. Call your State Apiarist.

Contact Michelle Colopy at the Pollinator Stewardship Council. Ask her advice. info@pollinatorstewardship.org


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## Swampsquash (Oct 25, 2014)

This is heartbreaking! 

I'm so glad nobody in my neighborhood cares about their yard. Lots of nice weed flowers and not too many poisons (I assume!)


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I'm certainly not going to pay to have them tested, I just have a few handfuls of hives. I don't mean this to be complaining or whiny... Was just wanting to share. 

Mark, if that lady wants them I can send them. There's plenty more where the hives were. I moved them out to one of my other yards where there aren't gobs of dead bees. I'll probably put some protein on them and maybe some syrup tomorrow just to try to dilute whatever might have made it into the combs. 

Sadly, I think this could be terminal though. A big setback at the very least. I had bees in the same place all summer and never had an issue. I wonder if possibly someone had the wrong tank? Last year one of the lawn care companies sprayed a guys yard with Roundup instead of "the good stuff". Quite the interesting looking lawn all summer. Haha

Thanks for the input. Kind of a sad sight... Had a bad feeling when the smell was so strong.

David LaFerney, I believe the blue pollen to be from "glory of the snow" which grows in large patchs here, of it in some people's yards though.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

not sure what the spray was but it was not roundup. we use it all the time to kill grass around the hives with no problems. If it was a contact spray no more problems would be expected.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

Man, that sucks. I don't know a better way to put that...

I believe I'd be calling the lawn chemical company. I don't know about in Iowa but in AL you have to have a Restricted Use Herbicide/Pesticide permit and a Commercial Application license for a business to legally apply chemicals to lawns. Looks like someone didn't follow all the precautions they should have. They may be liable for your hives.

My guess is that something like Sevin was applied to an entire lawn or 10.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

It does suck, what surprises me is the number of pollen colors associated. You see them in the pics. But there's also a few others that might not show up as well. Some khaki colored and some light green. I'm trying wrap my head around how they'd all have been hit that hard. That's kind of why I assumed it was nectar being shared that caused it... But that's just a guess. 

Beeware10 we use roundup frequently around our hives. I didn't mean to imply I thought it was roundup, was just saying a tank mixup isn't unheard of in the lawn care industry.

It is just kind of "part of the deal" in my eyes. A risk you run with hives in town. What's funny is I've never seen any kind of bee kill out side of town. But a friend nearby had his hive about wiped out in July last year they never recovered.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

At the NY State Pollinator Protection Task Force last Summer we heard that the chemicals that are detrimental to pollinating insects occur most in Urban settings. In other words, lawn maintenance.

jw, I suspect an insecticide, not an herbicide or fungicide.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> At the NY State Pollinator Protection Task Force last Summer we heard that the chemicals that are detrimental to pollinating insects occur most in Urban settings. In other words, lawn maintenance.
> 
> jw, I suspect an insecticide, not an herbicide or fungicide.


That doesn't surprise me at all. What insecticide would be spraying (not expecting an answer, just thinking outloud)... and this would be many yards sprayed... would almost have to be. I don't think they'd be working dandelions, glory of the snow, creeping charlie, etc all in the same place...

And the light green would be box elder I think (or maybe crab apple, those might be starting a bit)... I've noticed that blooming just recently. 

Maybe the guy behind me sprayed the back side of my fence for bugs...


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Maybe the guy behind me sprayed the back side of my fence for bugs... 

With all the different colours of pollen, it would seem that the bees were just entering the hive or close to it when they got hit with something. I don't see how all that colour happened from one persons lawn spray in the neighbourhood. Without witnessing the problem, it's hard to say what happened, but seems like you might have a close neighbour that does not appreciate your hives there in that location. I hope this is not the case, it's all conjecture anyway without witnessing anything. We all just hope you don't have this problem again, it's always tough to have something like that happen.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Ray, while I wouldn't put it past a person to do something, the house directly behind us is largely unoccupied. I don't know if they even live there. I suppose it could have been someone kitty corner, but... seems doubtful. Of course I'd approach a neighbor if I had a problem with them or something they were doing before I'd do anything drastic. 

To be clear, I don't think it was just one lawn sprayed... the only law that borders my yard that ISN'T sprayed is the one directly behind us. But these people don't have any weeds in their yards and today was pretty calm so far as wind... so drift seems pretty unlikely. 

Either way they are moved now. If someone sprayed them I didn't really notice a smell. Sure hope that wasn't it. If it was they could have got the same result just knocking on my door or yelling over the fence and asking me to move them. I'd have obliged and moved them the night they asked. That's the odd part is the pollen on them and tons of them dead right at the hive. I did notice a few stumble out, but that could have been ones that were able to crawl up the hive stand and into the hive only to tumble back out. I'll pop the them open tomorrow or Thursday and assess the situation. Problem is now my hive stand is full at the outyard I took them to... 

I went and collected a few hundred more dead, wrapped them in paper towels and froze them. Emailed Michelle as Mark noted. I'll email our state apiarist right now and see if he has any use for a sample.

Thanks for all the replies!


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Yes I almost did not even say anything, I think people are good and hate the thought of someone spraying a hive, I don't see where that would happen. It's just odd, what you found. Trying to come up with a logical sounding reason in my head what it could be. Maybe you'll have more clues once you get to check inside. I guess it could be they got into some kind of something that got brought back to the hive, and the dead started happening as bees entered to store the pollen. Maybe some kind of bad pollen, like the California Buckeye that will kill off a hive here in the area now and then.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Believe me Ray, I can't come up with something logical either, which is part of why I started the thread... seems odd that my friend would have the same exact thing happen today too. He's 30-35 miles south of me. He sent me pictures of his aftermath and it looks really similar in terms of number of dead bees and most of them with pollen in their baskets too. His are on concrete pad right on his patio out his backdoor, so seems unlikely something would have happened without him knowing. His started pretty early this AM, mine was later in the afternoon. He noted that the whole neighborhood smelled like spray too. 

There were no dead bees on top of my hives. If someone was spraying up over the fence during orientation I can't imagine at least a few not dropping down there with out 6' privacy fence the bees fly pretty much straight out and up either over the house or over the fence and up over the neighbor's house. It's almost like someone walked up to them and nailed them... and they were all dead REALLY close to the hive. It's tough to tell in the grass, but with the bright little pollen baskets it's pretty easy to see them. Farthest one away from the entrance was about a foot, maybe 18" or so. And it was only 1-2. 99% of them were either directly below the entrance or under the hive. In fact when moving the nucs there were even more dead under the hives than I thought there were from looking at an angle from the front. 

Like I said earlier, I didn't notice any smell right at home. The strong smell was about a 1/2 mile down the road.


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## Falconite (Jun 26, 2012)

When I inspected my hives Tuesday afternoon, I observed exactly the same as your picture around the entrances of my 3 hives. The possibility of someone spraying their lawn around me is very low. Monday it rained most of the day with the high temp around 62. Tuesday morning we had a hard freeze. I was thinking this was because of the weather somehow. 

The bees in this picture are dead and clinging to the grass.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Falconite, lots of cold nights here. Sure looks similar any theories on how the weather could have caused?


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

spraying a herbicide for dandelions is not going to kill bees.

Spray companies do not mix herbicide with insecticide. 

A commercial insecticide is likely to kill the bees "on site" meaning its unlikely they would make it back to the hive with full baskets only to die infront of the hive.

To die infront of the hive, I would suspect the insecticide to be "by the hives" (eg measured in a few feet, not miles)


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## Estell Tabor (Aug 5, 2014)

I noticed this around one of my hives yesterday afternoon. This hive is in a rural small town a lot of farm land around. My first thought was the weather too. This hive is in the shade in the afternoon and it was a little windy the combination made it really cool where the hive sits. The bees were not dead though just moving real slow,and all of them had loads of pollen.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

schmism said:


> A commercial insecticide is likely to kill the bees "on site" meaning its unlikely they would make it back to the hive with full baskets only to die infront of the hive.


that depends on the temp that day. do you have any apple orchards fairly close with trees just coming out of bloom. that's how exactly how mine were when sprayed in an orchard, multiple colored pollen because they didn't mow the orchard. another option that can happen is if the air temp is cold enough that the bees get to the landing board but are to cold to make it in. did you try warming up a few. good luck


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jwcarlson said:


> Falconite, lots of cold nights here. Sure looks similar any theories on how the weather could have caused?


If there was a sudden drop in the temperature while bees were out foraging, maybe that would kill them. Just like when bees fly out and die on top of the snow when they take cleansing flights. Not my first assumption though.


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## Falconite (Jun 26, 2012)

I have only been working with bees since 2012, so this is only my theory. I think that as the day ended Monday, the temperature was dropping quickly. When the bees returned to the hives, which are in the afternoon shade, they became too cold to function. As the overnight temperature dropped below 30, I think they froze. I have seen bees so cold they appeared dead and then start moving again once they warmed up. But with the bees being wet, the cold night was just too much.


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## bee keeper chef (Nov 1, 2015)

do you have any orchards in the area they could be spraying the over spray would be on anything in the area. dandelions love to grow under fruit trees. Could be a home owner with a few fruit trees and sprayed


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Are dandelion and apples blooming in Iowa at this time? I can't imagine so.


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## bee keeper chef (Nov 1, 2015)

orchards will spray a pre emergent on trees for bugs I live near a large orchard they call me when they are going to spray I I lock my bees up for the day


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

David LaFerney said:


> Sorry about your dead bees - I hope it doesn't get worse.
> 
> But, what is the blue pollen from? I've never seen that.


probably siberian squill.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

sorry to see this JW.
Judging by the size pollen loads they were in route home when affected. Maybe flew through some toxicity (areal spray?)
As Ray said the pollen loads indicate a wide variety of forage being worked probably over a wider area than a 'yard'. Further
some looks to be from ground sources and other loads from the tree canopy. Leads me to think a tree care company and not
a lawn care one.
To many pieces to the puzzle.

I do not think low temps. are the issue.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I don't believe temps to be the issue. They work at least 10 degrees colder than when they were stranded. 

Apples still a little ways from opening here and other than a few scattered fruit trees, no orchards that I am aware of. Dandelions JUST opened on south facing slopes and sunny spots. Actually stopped and watched mine working some a block north of my place during lunch. 

I agree that lawn spray seems unlikely, but it could be a a neighbor home spraying like a wildman for bugs and mine got caught on their way home in a flight path?

Either way I didn't leave them here to find out.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

clyderoad said:


> sorry to see this JW.
> Judging by the size pollen loads they were in route home when affected. Maybe flew through some toxicity (areal spray?)


I thought similar to this, only what about just flying through strong vapor of spray in an area, since you could smell it so strongly. Maybe there was a certain flight path that crossed a heavily sprayed, or being sprayed, area.


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## AdamBeal (Aug 28, 2013)

I wonder if someone with a great big yard somewhere around who had lots of those pollen sources went out and saw hundreds bees all over their yard. You know how people sometimes panic, maybe they have kids, maybe they are allergic. Now this huge problem thousands of bees that seemingly weren't there yesterday. So off to home depot and buy gallons of insecticide with a sprayer and come back and spray their whole yard and all the spots they notice bees. In the meantime wave after wave of follow up foragers are coming into this prime spot to get theirs all day long.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

I don't know about up there, but down here some people treat their whole lawns with insecticide. Primarily for fire ants or grub worms. Sevin is a popular choice for grub control.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

AdamBeal, I've been thinking something like this could be possible too. 

I like a good mystery... there's just no way I solve this one. Which is why I moved them several miles away and "out of town". I do miss being able to look out in the backyard and see if they're flying yet though. My daughter is pretty bummed too. We were finally getting to "boy bee" season and now I don't have any at the house 

Brad Bee, I'm sure that's possible. Sevin is a dust though, right? Or can it be made into a spray? Just thinking of the logistics of dusting an entire yard. haha We don't have fire ants up here.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Do people in your area plant Blue Grass lawns? Bilbugs are a serious problem in them. Treatment is early to kill adults before they lay eggs. They use systemics with a knock down pesticide over the whole yard. The adults over winter in ground debris, and are not all in the grass. We had them move into our area several years ago. People that did not treat re-planted their lawns. That is the main reason I planted Fescue lawns.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Unsure, Dave. I'm sure SOMEONE has a blue grass lawn, but I wouldn't know it from fescue if it came up and slapped me in the face I don't think.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

jwcarlson said:


> Brad Bee, I'm sure that's possible. Sevin is a dust though, right? Or can it be made into a spray? Just thinking of the logistics of dusting an entire yard. haha We don't have fire ants up here.


Homeowner use Sevin is a dust, usually 5% or 10%. There is also a homeowner grade liquid that's mild. Commercial or agricultural Sevin comes as a 44% liquid and an 80% wetable powder. It can be bad juju. I have used it on our farm to spray for armyworms in bermuda hay fields, but bees don't get anything out of bermuda hayfields so they chance of contaminating a hive is nil unless drift is an issue and I make absolutely certain that drift is not an issue when I have to spray it.


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## sakhoney (Apr 3, 2016)

is anyone spraying for misquotes? Had a plane fly over one of my yards and spray - Took out a yard of 60 hives - sued the county and won - they had to pay


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

sakhoney said:


> is anyone spraying for misquotes? Had a plane fly over one of my yards and spray - Took out a yard of 60 hives - sued the county and won - they had to pay


That crossed my mind as well, we've had hard freezes for the past week or so. I doubt there's any mosquito fogging going on... hell, I don't even know if they do that around here. I've never seen it if they do. Of course with this zikka virus scare...


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Sorry that you and your bees had to go through this. 

My view is that its just rude to impact others through chemical use. Not just bees, but pets and kids especially. 

We now have a ban on pesticide use for cosmetic purposes. I'm sure there is still some secret use, but its a step in the right direction.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Jw, 

If the smell of pesticide in the air was that strong, follow your nose. Somebody else in the neighborhood had to notice too, perhaps several. Ask your neighbors if they saw anything. I bet you can get the name of the lawn service/pesticide applicator pretty quickly.


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

Bluegrass is popular in the Midwest here, and I am from SE Iowa. Whole yards are treated for grubs, etc. often but I suspect normally if someone treats in that way, their yard is fairly pristine and free of most weeds. I had a neighbor who treated and applied everything, which resulted in his yard being perfect but having nothing to attract bees. My residence was in town in Iowa and was the only place you could find earthworms in the street and driveway during the spring rains. Everybody treated the yard for "bugs".


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

What a shame! That's a lot of foragers to lose from a nuc.

A lot of those pollen baskets are absolutely chocked full. These bees had to have been hit with a quick acting insecticide just yards from the hive.

Intentional or not, if the cause isn't determined and the hives were put back, I'd guess it is likely to happen again.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I would suspect fruit tree spray more than a lawn application. The odor is brought back to the hive by the bees carrying tainted pollen and it may or may not be nearby.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Here in IN the pear trees just went out of bloom, apple up next. Dandilions are abound, and TONS of henbit. Spray is happening around here, luckily not near me. We live in a county of 80% woodland. In our area, people dust entire yards in spring for ticks, sevin I believe. It ends up on all the 'weeds' growing in the yards, flowers and all. I'll bet though others are right, likely tree spray, not a ground treatment.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

This is prime time for lawn care companies to spray. They are going to putting down a tank mix of some pre-emerge herbicide which is not a bee problem to whack crab grass, fertilizer which is not a bee problem, fungicides to clear up things like snow mold caused by too much nitrogen fertilizer applied last year and those are not acute problems to bees and a post emerge herbicide such as 2,4 D to kill broad leafed plants in the lawn and while those smell a lot are not a bee problem. In that same tank they likely have a insecticide aimed at Japanese beetle grubs mainly and those can be a big bee problem for a few days unless well watered in. Lawn care companies routinely combine a whole bunch of things in one tank so they only have to cover the lawn once.

Go around the neighborhood looking for lawns that look like grass deserts. Responsible lawn care companies routinely put out small signs after such a spray warning people the lawn was just sprayed. They often also put out small advertising signs on lawns they are contracted to maintain.

People who have grass desert lawns are committing a crime against nature as far as I am concerned.

Dick


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

shinbone said:


> What a shame! That's a lot of foragers to lose from a nuc.
> 
> A lot of those pollen baskets are absolutely chocked full. These bees had to have been hit with a quick acting insecticide just yards from the hive.
> 
> Intentional or not, if the cause isn't determined and the hives were put back, I'd guess it is likely to happen again.


Well, I'll confess that "nuc" might not the the correct term. They're 15 deep frames. 5/5/5 running 7-8 frames with brood last check a couple of weeks ago. And they won't be moved back. In fact I didn't want to wait even a day.



jim lyon said:


> I would suspect fruit tree spray more than a lawn application. The odor is brought back to the hive by the bees carrying tainted pollen and it may or may not be nearby.


Hmm. I'm certainly not ruling anything out. There are fruit trees around (including my own yard), but I have never seen any that looked remotely cared for. But who knows... I certainly haven't surveyed every square inch of forage area. 

The temperature idea is interesting to me, but it just seems so unlikely. It was a pretty calm day, sunny, 55 degrees. They were flying around noon when it was maybe 45-48 degrees. These hives did get afternoon shade... but it's been much cooler and not so much as a be or two ever in the grass. Thinking back, there were a few crawling in the grass around noon-time. I didn't think much of it, figuring they were nearly dead ones because they've been cooped up for days with cruddy weather. It was probably already happening...


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## Pete O (Jul 13, 2013)

Aerial mosquito spraying?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I would suspect a planter dust problem with crops being planted over Henbit except he states his hives in the country weren't affected. Richard could be correct in that someone mixed in some insecticide (perhaps chlorpyrifos) in a tank mix. That stuff is devastating to bees as would be plain ole malathion in a fruit tree spray.


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## Estell Tabor (Aug 5, 2014)

The bees around the hive I observed yesterday was not dead but I'd say if they didnt make back in the hive last night they'll be dead today. I'd almost bet a body part that no one in this town treats their yards, but there is an orchard about a mile away. I'm just having trouble believing they flew that far back only to drop right in front of the hive. I'm stopping by there on the way home to inspect the hive.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

jim lyon said:


> I would suspect a planter dust problem with crops being planted over Henbit except he states his hives in the country weren't affected. Richard could be correct in that someone mixed in some insecticide (perhaps chlorpyrifos) in a tank mix. That stuff is devastating to bees as would be plain ole malathion in a fruit tree spray.


I know someone earlier in the thread stated that lawn care companies "don't mix"... but when they sprayed roundup on a guy's lawn when they were supposed to be spraying fertilizer... what about an entire "mix-up" as in the wrong fill or the wrong tank. Let's be honest, most of these guys aren't really professionals or even "try-hard" guys by and large. Usually pretty young kids that I've seen.



schmism said:


> Spray companies do not mix herbicide with insecticide.


I'm not ruling out anything. In fact, I'm not really sure it was a lawn care company that did it... I wouldn't place a bet on anything at this point. It just smelled heavily of spray on the drive home. My buddy says the same thing in his neighborhood. I'll obviously never know what really happened. If I get home and there's a bunch of bees with full pollen baskets buzzing around looking for their hives I'm going to feel REALLY dumb though.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

Strangely enough, I have noticed something similar but not to that scale. While planting my garden boxes, I noticed several bees within a 10' radius of the hive that had pollen but we're dead or dying. I kind of blew it off though because it was cold yesterday with wind- I thought maybe they got chilled. But after reading several replies, it dawned on me that many people nearby do get their lawns sprayed. I'll take a better look when I get home. I hope this isn't the start of something bad for either of us.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I'd assume some Japanese beetle or similar application to kill grubs.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Well and went to put some pollen sub on them today, lots of bees coming and going (now in a new location). Still bringing in pollen. A couple bees on the ground with pollen, assuming they made it in but were on the bottom board and got hauled out today.


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## DrJeseuss (May 28, 2015)

Might not be in the clear yet then, if there was anything in/on the pollen. If some got packed away, you may see some failed brood, or loss of the nurses. Hope it's a small issue, if any, and not enough to set you back.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

DrJeseuss said:


> Might not be in the clear yet then, if there was anything in/on the pollen. If some got packed away, you may see some failed brood, or loss of the nurses. Hope it's a small issue, if any, and not enough to set you back.


Yep, will end up giving them a frame of brood probably. We'll see. I didn't look inside, so no telling what it looks like in there. Certainly not in the clear. I moved them to this yard specifically because it's got a few of my best hives that haven't had any brood taken from them yet. 

Grafting tomorrow.


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## Cyan (Jan 27, 2015)

Didn't notice any more dead bees, and they're out gathering pollen. I hope it works out for you.


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## Weallneedbees (Mar 12, 2016)

jim lyon said:


> I would suspect a planter dust problem with crops being planted over Henbit except he states his hives in the country weren't affected. Richard could be correct in that someone mixed in some insecticide (perhaps chlorpyrifos) in a tank mix. That stuff is devastating to bees as would be plain ole malathion in a fruit tree spray.


Jackpot JIM. I read a study by Indiana university. All corn seed 
is coated in neonics and talc to aid in the seed flowing. The talc is some astronomical number above the lethal dose for bees and settles on everything in the area. I suspect the bees picked it up when it settled and poof, your hive is toast. I am so sorry.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

Weallneedbees said:


> Jackpot JIM. I read a study by Indiana university. All corn seed
> is coated in neonics and talc to aid in the seed flowing. The talc is some astronomical number above the lethal dose for bees and settles on everything in the area. I suspect the bees picked it up when it settled and poof, your hive is toast. I am so sorry.


Poof? Astronomical? How about you give us a link to the Indiana U study before you make such a ridiculous statement? 

Bingo!


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## Weallneedbees (Mar 12, 2016)

http://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/research/2012/120111KrupkeBees.html


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I believe in post 24, the OP stated:

I like a good mystery... there's just no way I solve this one.

Horse hockey. There is a way to solve the mystery, but you choose not to. Be honest. I sent in a sample to the Gastonia USDA lab, you can too.

Crazy Roland


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Weallneedbees said:


> Jackpot JIM. I read a study by Indiana university. All corn seed
> is coated in neonics and talc to aid in the seed flowing. The talc is some astronomical number above the lethal dose for bees and settles on everything in the area. I suspect the bees picked it up when it settled and poof, your hive is toast. I am so sorry.


They are just now getting ready to get corn in the ground here. Haven't seen any planted just yet.



Roland said:


> Horse hockey. There is a way to solve the mystery, but you choose not to. Be honest. I sent in a sample to the Gastonia USDA lab, you can too.


Spending $400 to learn (maybe) why there was a thousand or so dead bees outside of two of my nucleus colonies doesn't make any sense for me. I'd rather buy $400 worth of bee equipment and just keep growing my apiary. If I had a whole yard of colonies wiped out and I did this for a living... that's a different story. I'm not going to roughly 40% of what I spent on bees for this year to get them tested. I didn't make this thread to have people feel sorry for me or anything, I was just honestly wondering what I should make of it. 

We obviously are on two different sides of the spectrum. Would you have sent that sample to Gastonia if it swelled your budget by 40%, Roland? Or would you have just chalked it up to "something" and moved on?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

$400 to know they got sprayed so you know you need to move them.....vs.......just move them anyways for free........ No brainer for me too Jacob


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

$400 to have a sample of bees tested? Wow.

If it were cheaper, we might learn a lot more about the issues our bees are facing. What one backyard beekeeper finds is causing his bees to die may well help others. If it were to have a chemical cause, it would be helpful to create awareness.

And the fumes that noticeable would really bother me. How toxic is that to humans?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I would think that if the right person were shown the photos and given Jacob's description of the circumstances the possible list of chemicals could be narrowed down quite a bit. I'm not sure who that is. Assuming it's chemical.

I wonder if any other critters were effected. Birds, insects, dogs, cats, children.

Do you have the time, energy, and inclination to do a neighborhood door to door canvas, Jacob?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

sqkcrk said:


> Do you have the time, energy, and inclination to do a neighborhood door to door canvas, Jacob?


I know this will be an unpopular "decision" on here, but it's just "part of bees" for me. The decision to move them out of town was the only one I really had to make. I'm not going to be able to stop anyone from doing what they wish with their lawn, and frankly... it's their lawn. They are free to do whatever they want on it. I just wanted know what people thought it might be is all, even if I'd already kind of made my mind up before posting. There was a good array of ideas here if nothing else!

Time... no. Energy... yes. Inclination... no. I'm just not 'one of those guys', if that makes sense. I did talk with Michele via email who you posted before, she was checking to see if her science guy wanted pollen baskets to test.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

We need an SPCI.


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## Estell Tabor (Aug 5, 2014)

I checked around the hive today and I guess they made it back into the hive. I figured there would be a lot of dead bees. I guess they got chilled. Not the same issue as MR jwcarlson. Hope the hive recovers for you.


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## toolman_dustin (Jan 13, 2016)

wow, really sorry to see this. this is a heads up for all of us.

I think I just might be able to keep my small colony alive. I'm in Kansas. They are bringing in quite a bit of pollen now. I just planted corn seed last weekend and then I discovered the following information. I don't think the following applies to your situation, but it applies to all bee keepers.

/////////////////////////////////////////////

I’ve been researching bee decline and come up with this. Ortho today (4/14/16) announced they will phase out these kinds of insecticides by 2021 because of the link to bee deaths (and butterfly). 

What’s killing all the bees? Answer: neonicotinoid insecticides

I should probably dig up all the “kandy corn” I planted the other day !!!!! It was coated with the red coating.

Thiamethoxam is a neonicotinoid insecticide used to coat corn seeds.
All of the insecticides listed in the three links below contain a “systemic plant insecticide” that kills or injures bees. Systemic means the insecticide is absorbed by the plant cells from root to nectar and kills any insect that tries to eat the plant or consume the nectar. The chemical is addictive to the bee and she returns over and over until overcome.

These three links list insecticides that contain neonicotinoid chemicals.

http://www.pan-uk.org/home-garden/list-of-home-and-garden-pesticides-containing-neonicotinoids

http://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/files/pesticide_list_final_59620.pdf

http://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/registration/reevaluation/chemicals/niclistofproducts.pdf


Here’s the bad part: Thiamethoxan is used to coat seeds (like corn). It colors them red.
Once the seed germinates, the chemical coating is absorbed by the plant and even the “sweat” of the plant is toxic to bees. The “sweat” is referred to as “Guttation” (see below).


Thiamethoxam
http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@[email protected]+7938

After planting corn (my hands were wet) I went in and ate breakfast. Probably didn't do a good job washing my hands. About 6 hours later I started getting abdominal cramps that continued for three days.

Human exposure: (lots of other things as well)
D) WITH POISONING/EXPOSURE: 1) MILD TO MODERATE POISONING: Mild to moderate poisoning can cause nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain, dizziness, headache, and mild sedation. These substances can also cause eye irritation.


Guttation is a natural plant phenomenon causing the excretion of xylem fluid at leaf margins. Here, we show that leaf guttation drops of all the corn plants germinated from neonicotinoid-coated seeds contained amounts of insecticide constantly higher than 10 mg/L, with maxima up to 100 mg/L for thiamethoxam and clothianidin, and up to 200 mg/L for imidacloprid. The concentration of neonicotinoids in guttation drops can be near those of active ingredients commonly applied in field sprays for pest control, or even higher. When bees consume guttation drops, collected from plants grown from neonicotinoid-coated seeds, they encounter death within few minutes.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#newwindow=1&safe=active&q=guttation+drops


Other stuff:

http://news.psu.edu/story/351027/20...icotinoid-insecticides-driven-seed-treatments

http://www.csmonitor.com/Environmen...xes-neonicotinoids-in-bee-friendly-move-video

http://www.foe.org/news/archives/2014-02-more-than-a-half-million-people-demand-home-depot-an-2


Dustin


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks for the info, toolman.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

This is a shame and a mystery. 

The range of pollens makes you think the bees are foraging is different areas. Although, a area with diverse plantlife could produce these results. Direct exposure to applied insecticides would kill bees quickly. Quick enough they may not make it back to the hive. They certainly wouldn't be able to forage and fly back to the hive. Other pesticides like a herbicide, 2,4-D, dicamba, etc. have much lower bee toxicities and would be unlikely culprits. 

Grub/beetle control insecticides are best applied in late summer earlier fall. However, that does not mean someone isn't applying them now.

Fruit trees applications are a possibility. As has been mentioned, sevin comes in many different forms. Bees exposed to enough sevin dust to cause this type of mortality would have visible white dust on them. If it is insecticide exposure it would most likely be a liquid spray. It is pretty early and wet for planter dust exposure or neonic exposure from corn seedling guttation.

There is also the possibility of exposure to some other toxin in their flight path. Depending on what it is and the mode of action there is the possibility of foragers making it into the hive and then dying. This could cause more bees/larvae to die. 

Bees really have to have direct exposure to toxins. I have hives in town where mosquito control sprays are made less the 100 feet from the hive without any die-offs. I also have hives a few feet from corn and soybeans field and barn yards where there is potential exposure to planter dust without any problems.

The worst part is not knowing what the problem is so you have no idea how to avoid it.

It is nice being able to walk out the door and watch bees when you want to. Maybe a small observation hives in the near future would help scratch that itch?

Good luck,

Tom


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

jwcarlson said:


> Falconite, lots of cold nights here. Sure looks similar any theories on how the weather could have caused?


 
Could you have had a relatively abrupt drop in temp late in the day prior, which left many too cold to complete the last few inches into the hive and then basically froze over night? I've seen something similar when a hive had too small of an entrance and the bees got chilled waiting to enter. I know this sounds like a long shot, but lawn spray theory really doesn't seem all that likely either.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

jw, we're all suffering here from not knowing what caused your poor bees to die.

Anyone want to donate towards a $400 bee testing fund? LOL.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

AstroBee said:


> Could you have had a relatively abrupt drop in temp late in the day prior, which left many too cold to complete the last few inches into the hive and then basically froze over night? I've seen something similar when a hive had too small of an entrance and the bees got chilled waiting to enter. I know this sounds like a long shot, but lawn spray theory really doesn't seem all that likely either.


AstroBee, the only issue I have with this theory is that my bees fly in the upper 40s and have never had an issue. It was still in the 50s and calm when I got home from work. Not saying it isn't possible. But those bees absolutely weren't like that the night before. At noonish they were looking fine maybe a couple crawling out front at worst. Then about 5 hours later, as shown.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

toolman_dustin said:


> [”I should probably dig up all the “kandy corn” I planted the other day !!!!! It was coated with the red coating. ./QUOTE]
> 
> Dont worry about it.....I haven't found a single study where they show neonicitinoids are harmfull to bees where they DIDN"T put it directly in their syrup. And I mean duh any accute exposure to an insecticide will harm bees. Yes the plant does take it up and yes if aphids chew the leaves within the first few weeks of emergence it will kill them, but it's pretty well gone from the plant apx 2 weeks post emergence, and I have yet seen a honeybee work a 6 in corn seedling. If it makes you feel any better 70-80% of my bees forage area are neonicitinoid big ag crops. in fact in some yrs my biggest flow is neonicitinoid soybeans and my bees are doing fine. And no I'm not a farmer nor work for one LOL .


Jw you mention corn hasn't been planted yet but they are close, did what you smell have an amonia smell. They usually cut anhydrous a few weeks prior to planting and if your bees happened to hit a cloud of it before it dissipated that could have done it.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

They have been applying ammonia for a week or 10 days. There are crops relatively close "in town", bit no evidence of this happening out where my hives are "feet" from crops.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> They have been applying ammonia for a week or 10 days. There are crops relatively close "in town", bit no evidence of this happening out where my hives are "feet" from crops.


upwind or down?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Harley Craig said:


> upwind or down?


I only control the location, not the wind.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> I only control the location, not the wind.


i realize that! LMAO but you know dang good and well there is a predominant wind direction this time of yr. lol If the wind was in your favor at the site feet from crops they could have been spreading seven dust without issue, doesn't mean the hive in question wasn't down wind of something else. Just thinking out loud trying to come up with "possibilities"


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

JW wrote:

We obviously are on two different sides of the spectrum. Would you have sent that sample to Gastonia if it swelled your budget by 40%, Roland? Or would you have just chalked it up to "something" and moved on? 

I sent the sample because we all need to resolve this issue. Yes, we loose over 10K in bees every year, so there is a payback to my investment, on the order of 40 percent of costs. 

You a very fortunate that your bees died in front of the hive, so that you can collect a sample.. Ours never make it back to the hive, making it hard to collect a sample. 

We are now seeing that rural areas have overtaken urban areas for bee kills. Where will you move your bees when they get poisoned in both areas?

Crazy Roland


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Roland, 
I appreciate your insight, I do. If I started slinging $400 out for every cause that was the right thing to fight for I'd be out of money by midnight. Surely you see the difference in our situations? I respect the hell out of what you commercial guys do, I could never do it. But I can't justify spending that kind of money on a test. 

Regarding where to put my bees if they die in both places... I don't know the answer to that. Thankfully, this is the worst I have experienced thus far. I keep most of my hives within 1/2 mile of alfalfa, some significantly closer than that. And of course corn and soy very close to them. 

Harley, regarding wind... The worst exposed to cropland are kind of out on a peninsula so everything except straight S pretty much blows across crop before it gets to the hives. And even then there's cropland to the south, but it is a bit farther away and on the other side of the highway.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> Harley, regarding wind... The worst exposed to cropland are kind of out on a peninsula so everything except straight S pretty much blows across crop before it gets to the hives. And even then there's cropland to the south, but it is a bit farther away and on the other side of the highway.



well that rules out neonicitinoids LOL


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

jwcarlson said:


> On my way home this afternoon the smell of lawn spray was so strong I rolled my windows up in my car.


I'm still scratching my head over this statement. Where was this smell? In your immediate neighborhood or elsewhere? The diversity of pollen on these bees doesn't seem consistent with a lawn pesticide application. Do you guys have aerial mosquito spraying. 

Falconite in post 18 shows a very similar kill. What do you make of that?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

toolman_dustin said:


> wow, really sorry to see this. this is a heads up for all of us.
> 
> I think I just might be able to keep my small colony alive. I'm in Kansas. They are bringing in quite a bit of pollen now. I just planted corn seed last weekend and then I discovered the following information. I don't think the following applies to your situation, but it applies to all bee keepers.
> 
> ...


So let me get this straight. You planted treated corn seed earlier this week, not knowing anything about neonics. Yesterday you did some research (spent an hour Googling) and now you know everything there is to know about neonics so you cut and pasted your "findings" here.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

AstroBee said:


> I'm still scratching my head over this statement. Where was this smell? In your immediate neighborhood or elsewhere? The diversity of pollen on these bees doesn't seem consistent with a lawn pesticide application. Do you guys have aerial mosquito spraying.



Sorry AstroBee. The smell was 1-3 blocks from home. At most.
I have never heard of them doing aerial mosquito spraying.


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## toolman_dustin (Jan 13, 2016)

Nabber86 said:


> So let me get this straight. You planted treated corn seed earlier this week, not knowing anything about neonics. Yesterday you did some research (spent an hour Googling) and now you know everything there is to know about neonics so you cut and pasted your "findings" here.



I'm sure everyone finds those one liners you pump out on your smartphone as helpful as I do. Thanks so much. 
However, this might be more useful:
Last week: "the Maryland House and Senate agreed upon and jointly passed a final version of the Maryland Pollinator Protection Act, which would eliminate consumer use of neonicotinoids, a widely-used class of pesticides that has been shown to negatively impact honeybees. If the bill — which now goes to the desk of Maryland Governor Larry Hogan (R) — is enacted into law, it would make Maryland the first state in the country to codify such protection for honeybees at a statewide level."
The governor is expected to sign the bill into action! 

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/04/08/3767856/maryland-passes-bee-bill/
http://inhabitat.com/maryland-governor-expected-to-ban-bee-killing-pesticides-in-us-first/


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

toolman_dustin said:


> The governor is expected to sign the bill into action!


Are we to pretend that all legislature operates only on fact and never makes a mistake?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

toolman_dustin said:


> I'm sure everyone finds those one liners you pump out on your smartphone as helpful as I do. Thanks so much.
> However, this might be more useful:
> Last week: "the Maryland House and Senate agreed upon and jointly passed a final version of the Maryland Pollinator Protection Act, which would eliminate consumer use of neonicotinoids, a widely-used class of pesticides that has been shown to negatively impact honeybees. If the bill — which now goes to the desk of Maryland Governor Larry Hogan (R) — is enacted into law, it would make Maryland the first state in the country to codify such protection for honeybees at a statewide level."
> The governor is expected to sign the bill into action!
> ...


I got a flip phone that does not work on the internet. 

Don't be so sure about the Maryland thing. The Gov. will probably veto it.


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## toolman_dustin (Jan 13, 2016)

Absolutely not. that's why this should be done at a state or local level and not nationa via the EPA. Not only that, but here in Kansas most of the crops we plant are wind pollinated. So most of our ag. business doesn't need bees anyway. But the rest of us need bees. 
You probably already know this, but, France did an experimental ban on all neonicotinoid insecticides in specific areas and saw bee populations recover within one year. Last month France proposed a complete ban on all neonicotinoid insecticides country wide. Why? Because you can’t make grapes without bees. If you can’t make grapes you can’t make wine. If you can’t make wine your winery goes broke. If the winery goes broke the liquor store has no wine. If you can’t buy wine at the store you can’t get drunk……………….. Ok, forget the drunk part. You get the idea. http://uk.reuters.com/article/france-pesticides-idUKL5N16Q2BM

I'd rather this be regulated at a local level that an EPA level.
Which is being considered! https://www.epa.gov/pollinator-protection/schedule-review-neonicotinoid-pesticides


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

That really sux, JW.
There seems to be no explanation as to where the poison originated.
I've seen the aerial spray accidentally drift over a farmhouse, but you say there is no aerial spraying in your immediate area. 

I hope you'll be able to move the hives back some day.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

toolman_dustin said:


> Why? Because you can’t make grapes without bees. If you can’t make grapes you can’t make wine. If you can’t make wine your winery goes broke.


Sorry to interrupt Misinformation Hour, but grapes don't need bees.



toolman_dustin said:


> I'd rather this be regulated at a local level that an EPA level.
> Which is being considered! https://www.epa.gov/pollinator-protection/schedule-review-neonicotinoid-pesticides


I'd rather it be regulated from a factual level...


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

Question re neonics:
If neonics make the entire plant toxic, and since most corn is heavily neonic'ed up; why am I able to eat a fair amount of corn and not be dead? Just asking because it makes no sense to me.
Or is it that the entire plant, except the kernels, is toxic?


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Toolman dustin in your last post you have absolutely nothing correct.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

Arnie said:


> Question re neonics:
> If neonics make the entire plant toxic, and since most corn is heavily neonic'ed up; why am I able to eat a fair amount of corn and not be dead? Just asking because it makes no sense to me.
> Or is it that the entire plant, except the kernels, is toxic?


Because some things are toxic to certain types of animals but not to others. Imidacloprid is a neonic, and a very popular flea control product (brand name Advantage). It is administered through your pet's skin and then travels in your pet's blood for the next month.

Your pet's blood becomes deadly, deadly poison to fleas. They drink it; they die within hours.

Yet it poses almost no harm to your pet, even at doses 10x the indicated amount.

Selamectin (Revolution/Stronghold) is not a neonic, but it is similarly deadly toxic to insects and relatively benign to vertebrates.

Dark chocolate is deadly poison to your dog, but not to you.


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## Arnie (Jan 30, 2014)

IAmTheWaterbug said:


> Because some things are toxic to certain types of animals but not to others. Imidacloprid is a neonic, and a very popular flea control product (brand name Advantage). It is administered through your pet's skin and then travels in your pet's blood for the next month.
> 
> Your pet's blood becomes deadly, deadly poison to fleas. They drink it; they die within hours.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Good to know.


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

jw, as a hobbyist myself I sure understand not throwing $400 into having dead bees checked. I had no idea the cost was that high. I may call our state diagnostic lab Monday and see if they check bees for cause of death and if so what the cost is. 

I know "seed" corn has been red all my life. Seed corn wasn't treated with neonics when I was a kid on up into adulthood. Just because seed is red doesn't mean it has a neonic applied to it. 

I don't know how harmful neonics are to bees but it seems to me that if neonics were as bad as some want us to believe that a 10 acre sweet corn patch would wipe out every bee within flying distance of it. I know my bees rely heavily on the pollen produced by our sweet corn up every summer.

I lost a lot of bees last fall. Nearly every split I made last year died out. I don't believe it was due to neonics or anything other than piss poor beekeeping on my part. I could blame Bayer or Monsanto but they weren't responsible for me not feeding the hives until they got strong enough to survive on their own. I'm not saying neonics are good, but I do know that in the world we live in today, enough food to support this planets population can't be grown without pesticides. We do need to find a better balance but it's not as simple as outlawing a pesticide.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

jwcarlson said:


> I'd rather it be regulated from a factual level...


LOL. 

Why should we let that facts get in the way of some good ole fear mongering ??


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

NewbeeInNH said:


> Anyone want to donate towards a $400 bee testing fund? LOL.


I'm in for $20. Where do I send it?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

I'll donate replacement bees.....but he's gonna have to drive about 1,000 miles one way to get them.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

JW - Yes, I am being hard on you. We indeed are in different situations, but are we? The current bee situation is there worst we have seen in 164 years, and not getting better. Until this pesticide issue is resolved, there is a bleak future for traditional honey production beekeeping in our area(no pollination income). Our honey crops have deceased dramatically from difficulties building bee populations(the bees don't seem to live as long), and winter losses have risen for the same reason.

Maybe Astrobee has the right idea, crowd funded. It would be worth 20 dollars to know one source of our problems.

Crazy Roland


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Roland said:


> JW - Yes, I am being hard on you. We indeed are in different situations, but are we?
> 
> Crazy Roland


Roland, you're passionate and that's great. Regarding being in different situations, we absolutely are... You do this for a living and I play around with bees occasionally, mostly for entertainment. If all my bees die for several years like my grandpa and dad's bees did when varroa showed up I'd likely give it up, because I can. That isn't to say I don't care about my bees or bees in general, I do. It's just the way it is. If suddenly the world no longer needs engineers that's when I get in trouble. 

Regarding some sort of effort to crowd fund, I appreciate the sentiment, but considering possibly that I could just be an idot who's bees got cold, I would be very uncomfortable with the idea.


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## IAmTheWaterbug (Jun 4, 2014)

jwcarlson said:


> Spending $400 to learn (maybe) why there was a thousand or so dead bees outside of two of my nucleus colonies doesn't make any sense for me.


I thought having bees and brood tested by the USDA was free.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Note that while the USDA _Bee Disease Diagnosis Service_ is indeed free, their testing does _not_ include pesticides or viruses.


> Samples received of adult bees and beeswax comb (with and without bee brood) are examined for bacterial, fungal and microsporidian diseases as well as for two species of parasitic mites and other pests associated with honey bees (i.e., small hive beetle, Aethina tumida).
> 
> When requested, American foulbrood samples are cultured and isolates are screened for their sensitivity to Terramycin (oxytetracycline) and Tylan (tylosin).
> 
> ...


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## DanielD (Jul 21, 2012)

I know I wouldn't spend $400 on a test for my bees. I'm a low budget keeper. Maybe the crowd funding that has started will work.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

I think the crowdfunding was basically in jest. But it might be nice if a fund, whether publicly or privately, were set aside for just such purposes - testing of suspected pesticide bee kills of our hives. This way we might get a better handle on substances that are affecting our bees, how prevalent they are, and where they tend to occur.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Brad Bee said:


> I know "seed" corn has been red all my life. Seed corn wasn't treated with neonics when I was a kid on up into adulthood. Just because seed is red doesn't mean it has a neonic applied to it.


Brad,

The color denotes the seed is treated. It does not tell you what it is treated with. This is done to make it easily identifiable and help to keep it out of the food chain. One pink seed and the entire load, independent of size, is rejected.

Tom


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## Brad Bee (Apr 15, 2013)

TWall said:


> Brad,
> 
> The color denotes the seed is treated. It does not tell you what it is treated with. This is done to make it easily identifiable and help to keep it out of the food chain. One pink seed and the entire load, independent of size, is rejected.
> 
> Tom


That's right. I posted what I did because someone earlier wrote that their corn seed for their garden was red and that meant it was treated with a neonic. As you know, that's NOT what it means.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

JW, do what you wish with a clear conscience, you owe us nothing.

Crazy Roland


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I have read about the field dust blowing the
pesticides up that will hit the flying bees. Has there been a
recent windy weather blowing the open field dust around?
Also the water source that the bees use might be contaminated too.
Where is your water source located?


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Beepro, planting hasn't really started yet. Regarding water source. Why would it be pretty only bees with pollen baskets.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Reading with interest JW. If you can connect with the crowdfunding advisors used by the flow hive, you'll never have to work again. 

You smelled something in the air when you got home to find dead bees. The source must be close. I wonder about a chance mix of fungicide and insecticide...?


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## Falconite (Jun 26, 2012)

OK, couldn't this be a simple change of weather. So if someone sprayed something lethal to bees, it would have either killed them before they was able to fly back home or they would have poisoned the whole hive. Isn't it lucky that they didn't make it back in? It is known that bees full of pollen or nectar often land in front of the hive as they are heavier and worn out. I have seen this many of times. It just turns out that it got really cold and they just didn't have it in them to crawl back in before they froze. End of story. I only posted on this thread as I wondered if this was a common thing. 
Has anybody seen this before?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Suspected #1: When the plants are in then there will be no more field dust.
When there are open fields then the chances are that the wind might
carry the dust into the air. Field dust with pesticides will kill your foragers.
Suspected #2: When they are out gathering either from the flowers that got sprayed or from
the contaminated water source then they will die. Yes, the foragers are the one
who collects, remember? Because the poison is so potent they die before having
a chance to deposit their pollen into the cells. That means there is still a chance that
this hive can be save since not many pollen got in the hive. If you have the patty subs and drawn
comb or nectar/pollen comb available from another hive then brush the entire hive onto
their new home. And throw away or save and label these poison frames until you can verify
what they are later on. I would throw them away if you are not sure about them. No need to reuse unsafe
comb. I once threw away 20 frames accusing the EFB but it turn out later on to be the mites problem.
The fact that the bees are dying this way pin point to a neo-toxin type of chemical just like the one
posted earlier about the school kids and the potential fruit trees spraying nearby that killed the bees. 
When the owner of the property don't want too many weeds then they will spray. You mentioned that they 
grow like wild everywhere there. So they sprayed and your bees foraged on then they died. This is a fast
acting (killing) chemical. On a 3 mile forage radius it is hard to pinpoint the exact location when things are blooming
everywhere. I would focus on cleaning up the nuc hives and transfer the queen to their new clean home also. Give
them new syrup after they are in their new home because a poisoned hive will spread the poison faster within 6 hours once
the hive is contaminated.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Change of weather would result in that many dead bees with full pollen baskets right in front of the hive? That seems too simplistic. The one factor going in favor of this theory tho is these are winter bees, so they may be worn out to begin with. But still, the fumes were a clue too.

I am not a real detective but I play one on beesource. I think whatever caused the fumes did it, in the air on their way home, with the toxic chemicals.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Falconite said:


> I have seen this many of times. It just turns out that it got really cold and they just didn't have it in them to crawl back in before they froze. End of story. I only posted on this thread as I wondered if this was a common thing.
> Has anybody seen this before?


I don't disagree with the possibility, but my beea forage in temperatures 10 degrees lower than this all the time and I haven't once seen more than a bee or two in front of the hive with pollen baskets full. This was a thousand between the two hives at least. 

Now, I have a cell builder going in the same yard I moved these bees to so I have popped in every couple days since the incident. In front of each of these two "nucs" the other day was a small golfball sized clump on the highest little stick or weed in the general area. Not deformed wings or anything. No k-wing. 

I'm all on board for "they got cold", but they gather nectar in the mid 40s... It was 55 and calm when I found these.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Don't know what the weather is like before you found these bees.
Here the weather can change in an instant that even the weatherman cannot 
predict it so precisely. So it could be that days before that they got poisoned.
You are seeing the end result of things that had already happened.
Whatever it is don't put bees in a toxic dump in the future. Some area in the
country can be full of pesticides/herbicides too. Imagine what it can do to us if
the bees are dying this way. Sort of like the canary inside a mine situation.


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## Bdfarmer555 (Oct 7, 2015)

My guess is that it's mostly related to the smell you found on the way home. Could have been the yard treaters you mentioned were spraying had a hose crack spraying a cloud of chemical into the air instead of to the targeted ground. Same thing could've happened in the corn fields. Could've been a homeowner that didn't mix the insecticide bought at the local store correctly this year when they decided to spray the fruit trees for the first time. Any combination of these are possible. 

Farming is local as well, and I think your area has corn rootworms to be dealt with, whereas I don't have a need for an early insecticide. Seed companies have a couple gmo corn traits for that, but some spray rather than use them, depending on availability, economics, preference. Refuge is required to use the trait, but I don't know if refuge areas can be treated or not. 

Whatever the source, I'd say that cloud of pesticide floated through, if not settled, into your yard. Much like gasoline vapors can settle into low area "pockets", given the right conditions. Might read up on "spraying during an inversion". Happens when weather is clear skies, no wind, cooling temps in the evening mostly, and is a major concern here when spraying at dusk/night. 

With that many types of pollen on the dead, I'd guess the exposure was close, if not at the hive. Is your yard fenced? Could have "trapped" some of that cloud of pesticide, whatever the source. Hate that this happened to some of your bees, but without a test to determine the chemical that got them, it's hard to know where to look to find the origin.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

Reminds me of that video someone posted here a few months back, of their neighbor's arm reaching over their fence with a can of bug spray aimed at their beehives.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

That memory came to me as well.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

I noticed no smell in the yard itself. It's surrounded by 6' privacy fence. I've seen the neighbor that lives behind us a grand total of two times. The second time being last night while I was mowing.

Both of these nucs look "no worse for the wear", but I have not really looked inside of them yet. I'll likely do that on Saturday. The entrance activity is really strong and they keep chewing out the wax plugs I put in the entrance to choke them down so they must want more.


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## colinpurrington (Sep 10, 2018)

If you still have these bees and ever get them tested for pesticides, I'd love to know the result. I'm trying to find a photograph of bees killed by pyrethroids for https://colinpurrington.com/misc/mosquitoes/buzz-on-mosquito-sprays/.


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