# bees been treatment free for 3 years now they have alot of mites do i worry



## ashb82 (Apr 22, 2010)

i have had my bees for 3 years they are NWC. i have never treated them i have 3 hives that are strong for this time of the year. i am worried they will swarm they are so full of bees. i thought i would add empty frame, so i pulled out a frame and add a empty frame to keep them busy. the frame i pulled out. i took a tooth pick and uncapped some of the brood and it had mites. i uncaped and pulled out all the larva i found 8 mites in the frame of brood. should i be getting worried.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

If they have survived this long, what is to be worried about? Furthermore, what will worrying do? It's not going to accomplish anything, so don't do it.

What is your objective in being treatment-free? Is it an end unto itself? Have you been doing it because it's the easiest method? Have no treatments been used simply because none were necessary? Do you have a commitment to being treatment-free, or is those individual hives' survival of paramount importance? Your motivation does matter in this type of endeavor.


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## ashb82 (Apr 22, 2010)

i dont want to treat my bees. if they die guess i will look for another strain of honey bee.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

In that case, worrying is still fruitless and pointless. Seek instead to learn as much as you can from the situation. You may be able to learn what is the threshold for the number of mites those bees can handle before succumbing to the pressure. You may find as I did last winter that some hives can have a massive mite load, mites visible crawling around everywhere, and yet still survive. You may see as I have that at various points the mite load is high but the bees are naturally able to weather it and the population will subsequently drop later. You know your bees better than I do, it is your choice.

If you are still concerned, you could try some methods of mite control that don't involve treatments as defined in this forum like scraping (or striking) drone brood so that the brood is cleaned out and the mites reproduction cycle is thwarted.


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## ashb82 (Apr 22, 2010)

i dont know if sue cobey nwc are VSH, but i do notice my bees pull out alot of larva for some reason. i look at the larva they pull out i dont see mites on them, but i would think the mites would leave the larva once pulled out of the hive.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Solomon, don't you think he should determine what the mite load is, not just that they are there? 

What cells did you see mites in ashb82? Worker cells or drone cells?


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

ashb82,

If all you found were 8 mites in the frame of brood, that's nothing to worry about IMO. I'm going into my fourth season with some of my hives that have had mites every year but they handle them and are productive colonies, this is what treatment free beekeepers are looking for, bees that can handle the mite load. John


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Mark B, 

I am sure there are treatment free beekeepers who monitor mite loads, but I'm not one of them, what satisfies me is seeing colonies thrive year after year knowing they have mites, they just keep plugging along producing good crops of honey. John


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I just figured that 8 mites from unknown to us which kind of brood cell wasn't much indication of mite level. But I understand your rationale. Pretty much mine to, only from a different tac. tact?


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## throrope (Dec 18, 2008)

I have no reference for the number of mites in brood. In PA the inspectors perform a sugar roll test. They count mites shaken from a half cup of bees covered in confection sugar from a mason jar with #8 hardware cloth in place of the center disk into a white pan. I couldn't find their specific procedure or interpreting the results, but a search online revealed similar. Here's a resourced that helped me: http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/files/pests/varroa/control-of-varroa-guide.pdf I prefer the formic acid based treatments.


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## ashb82 (Apr 22, 2010)

i did not find one single mite in a drone cell all were in worker cells. also my bees have all natural drawn comb so there where alot of drone cells in my first super. i am cheap i dont buy wax or treat my bees.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Back before I got them all regressed I would find eight mites in one drone cell...


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

It sounds like you have some great hives there. You may want to take out an insurance policy on them, by splitting off a summer nuc from each one this year. If one of the main hives fails or starts failing for any reason, you can pinch and slip. Pinch the old queen and slip in a nuc into the center of the broodnest area of the hive.


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

If you've been treatment free for 3 years, and the bees were sold as being treatment free, I wouldn't worry. I'd suggest swarm prevention measures now, maybe splits for nucs or complete hives... You do want more hives, don't you? 
Regards,
Steven


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## ashb82 (Apr 22, 2010)

RayMarler said:


> It sounds like you have some great hives there. You may want to take out an insurance policy on them, by splitting off a summer nuc from each one this year. If one of the main hives fails or starts failing for any reason, you can pinch and slip. Pinch the old queen and slip in a nuc into the center of the broodnest area of the hive.


A guy that lives 1/2 mile from my house runs 600 russian mating nucs. what would a nwc/russian cross be like. i am sure his drones would mate my queens. he tells me he has been treatment free since the 1990s.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

I've been three years with my/these hives. I too figured why do mite counts if committed to treatment free. Last year I started doing the counts. I decided I wanted to know if the bees were living with high numbers, or dealing with them in some fashion keeping their numbers down. For me, that is good info to aide in selecting hives to make splits from. JMO


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

If one does have a desire to select colonies to raise queens from as part of a treatment free beekeeping style, wouldn't finding the hives w/ the naturally lowest mite count be a selecting factor. I would think that low mite counts in treatment free bees would indicate something positive, which one may wish to select for.

Maybe not the OPer, w/ so few a number of hives, but others, like Randy Oliver selects colonies to raise queens from in that manner. Granted that he isn't totally treatment free. Never the less.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

sqkcrk, yes if you are going to raise some queens from your "survivors" then counting mites might be a good way to find the very best colony among them all that have survived many years with mites. John


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

And, sometimes it's just nice knowing something whether knowing it influences ones descision making or not. As long as that knowledge doesn't lead to paniced descision making.


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## Mosherd1 (Apr 17, 2011)

In the early Spring I see what appears to be high mite numbers in my untreated hives. What it really is though is that the queen has not ramped up her egg laying so the phoretic mites that came through winter are concentrated in a smaller amount of brood cells, sometimes in workers. Once the queen starts to kick some butt with egg laying the ratio goes way down and you do not notice them as much. 8 mites on a frame seems pretty low. Although I do not know if in North Carolina it is still "early spring" for you.


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## Rick 1456 (Jun 22, 2010)

There have been many posts suggesting that if you see DWV, in numbers, then your hive is doomed if you do not treat. DWV is a virus in bees and can be/is exacerbated by mites. I see DWV, but by doing mite counts, one can decide if it is mite numbers or not. Along another line that was in the previous post,#20, I picked up a swarm last June. Did great till fall. Did a mite count. I quite at forty! I was looking to "cull" some hives that I didn't think would make it as I had to feed most of my hives. Most advice leaned toward they were doomed so why waste energy. I believe it was Michael Bush that posted with, "How do you know what they can do unless you give them the chance." Something to that effect. Stress induced response. They have made it through the winter and are dragging pollen in like the rest. I wondered the same thing as poster 20. Mites run to the small brood numbers and starve. At least some of them. If this queen does what she did last summer, they might just recover. I'm not going to start mass producing queens from her, but she will be interesting to watch, make a split, and see what the daughter does from this yard. Just my observations and thoughts.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

sqkcrk said:


> If one does have a desire to select colonies to raise queens from as part of a treatment free beekeeping style, wouldn't finding the hives w/ the naturally lowest mite count be a selecting factor. I would think that low mite counts in treatment free bees would indicate something positive, which one may wish to select for.


Not necessarily. Production is job 1. Breed for production from those that survive the mites. That and gentleness. It takes a little time, but the treatment-free part naturally selects for disease and parasite resistance.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

If you are also worried about swarming you could alway split your hives, this way you will have replacement just incase.


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