# Do landing boards really help?



## Faith Apiaries (Apr 28, 2015)

Firestix said:


> Do landing boards really help? If so, how much?
> I ask this because I've been building hives for my bees and also for other local beeks. I've noticed that if I can do away with the landing board (or at least make it more compact) then I can save ca$h and time.
> 
> The plans I currently use come from michiganbees.org and can be found HERE. (I use the IPM stand)
> ...


In my ten week of beekeeping experience I'd say that a landing board is for my edification, not that of the bees. I like a landing board because it helps ME see what's happening with the bees. I have one hive with no landing board and that doesn't seem to bother the bees at all...but I don't like it...I can't see what they are doing like I can on the other hives. I like the flat landing boards on my hives...I have one with a sloped landing board and I never see bees on it. I even tried an upper landing board suggested by someone on BeeSource and my bees totally ignored it, other than the ten guard bees protecting the extra opening. I'd rather they be building comb or something else.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

Do trees have landing boards?


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## DirtyLittleSecret (Sep 10, 2014)

May be better to ask if it's of value to your customers. There's a lot of features available that requires one of such. Eg: pollen traps, reducers, mouse guards, etc. In these regards I'd say yes, it can make it more efficient for the Beek to rear healthy hives/management. That doesn't mean a specific kind is better than others, but some sort does seem logical.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

tanksbees said:


> Do trees have landing boards?


Yes. The vertical surface of the tree makes a loooong landing board.

Beside that, some of my friends found out, that a landing board makes a +10% difference in honey. That's enough for me to use them. Just empirical experience, though.


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## asd (Jun 10, 2015)

This is a matter of not much importance.
Do it as you like most. I have upper entrances without landing boards on double nucs and bottom entrances on regular size colonies. Upper entrances have some advantages regarding grass and mice. Bees are landing either directly into the entrance or on the vertical flat surface of the hive or horizontally on the hive cover. I think it would be better but not essential to provide a landing board in case of bottom entrances. I use short ones:









...and even shorter:


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

I don't think they really help and I have hives with and without. I do like them to observe though as the bees walk around.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I think they are most helpful for the mice. I call them "mouse ramps". I consider them enough of a nuisance that I go to the trouble of cutting them off of any bottom boards that have them. But now I have only top entrances and they have no landing board to cut off... but if they did, I'd probably cut them off too so they wouldn't catch the wind...


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## my2cents (Jul 9, 2015)

I have 8 hives now and growing. I use pallets and they typically do not have landing boards. But, I have one I placed a landing board on to determine if it would help. I have seen no difference, in fact I seldom see bees on it.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

I call those honey ramps. 

Start beekeeping for real.


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## Firestix (Apr 1, 2015)

BernhardHeuvel said:


> I call those honey ramps.
> 
> Start beekeeping for real.


I truly don't understand the above quoted comment .... anyone care to translate?


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## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

I have never seen a tree with one.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Without landing boards, watching the hives thru the telescope would only be half as much fun.

They do give a little longer time to spot pollen coming in, and I like watching them drag out bumbles whose curiosity got the better of them.

Curiously, my observation hive, an Ulster, barely has a landing board. Cardboard nuc boxes just have a round hole.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

The only advantage I can see to having the mouse ramps on is:
When you shake bees and are making a cell builder the nurses have handicap access. 

I'm pretty sure I burned mine way back in the 1900's.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I truly don't understand the above quoted comment .... anyone care to translate?

He believes there is a 10% gain in honey production by using the "ramps" so anyone "beekeeping for real" would want that. I think I lose 10% more hives to mice...


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## Firestix (Apr 1, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> >I truly don't understand the above quoted comment .... anyone care to translate?
> 
> He believes there is a 10% gain in honey production by using the "ramps" so anyone "beekeeping for real" would want that. I think I lose 10% more hives to mice...


Oh. Well I have a farm cat ... not to mention enough feral cats and snakes around here to not have a mouse problem.
.. .And thanks for the translate! I would have read that totally different.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Michael Bush said:


> I think I lose 10% more hives to mice...


A landing board is simply the approach to the entrance. If you're having mice get in, I dare say it's not because of the landing board, but too big of an entrance or an unprotected entrance.


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

Barry said:


> A landing board is simply the approach to the entrance. If you're having mice get in, I dare say it's not because of the landing board, but too big of an entrance or an unprotected entrance.


A couple of friends have free range chickens, another mortal enemy of mice.

Are mice a problem in summer in most places? They'd be fools to try against my bees, based on the fate of bumbles. In the other seasons, when I put on entrance reducers, I staple some #2 hardware cloth over the entrances. I doubt lack of a landing board would discourage a mouse much, either.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

The above statement of mine translates into: you either follow those, that do harvest acceptable amounts of honey and have boxes filled to the rim with bees. Or you follow just phantasies about what should be real.

The truth lies in the honey bucket. 

Oh yes, you may have decided to have bees just for the sake of having bees. But even then it is fun to eat honey, share honey and to have boxes bursting with bees. Rather then to have buying packages year by year or to look into all those fine boxes - but unfortunately they are unpopulated year by year. You can even show boxes with bees in it on the internet/web without being ashamed of it. Now that is fun. Sharing is fun. 

If you want to go natural, be real and get a tree, chop away what doesn't look like a bee hive and start fixed comb beekeeping. Natural beekeeping is fixed comb beekeeping. You learn a lot about bees in those bee gums. And skeps. 

For the thread starter just an idea to reduce costs and still keeping a landing board:

Use four boards to make the sides of the bottom.









Tilt one of the boards to the inside to form an entrance and landing board at the same time.









Bees can crawl up right onto the combs. 









Done. Costs for this sort of bottom are really low. 

Bernhard


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## asd (Jun 10, 2015)

What do you fill the bottom with? I like the idea. I always tend to go for the simplest and cheapest. For example I'm using the simplest, cheapest hive stand: 3 sticks of wood planted into the ground - enough for my double nucs.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

I staple metal screen to it. On the underside.









Flipping it back into original position.









Detail view.









I then screw the bottom to a pallet. 









And it gets a decent paint to make it durable out in the sun and rain.









I made them so, that I can unscrew the four hive pallets into two hive pallets. If I ever switch to the Easyloader I can still use those bottoms.


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

So that "landing board" is 10% more efficient - compared to what?

My bees would spend the entire year closing up those bottom vents with propolis. And the weak hives would get robbed out fast with a huge entrance like that


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

Compared to no landing board. (what else)

Bees in Europe have been selected for less and less propolis accumulation in the hive, so frames can be handled more effeciently. We don't have problems like you describe therefore. If you don't need an open mesh floor for transportation, don't use one. Staple a solid board to the bottom instead. Is that a problem, really?

The solution for weaker hive being robbed out is: don't keep weak hives. The other is to use entrance reducers. All the other hives I know have the exactly same size of the entrance I use. And they have entrance reducers, too.

It is just a suggestion. If you are not satisfied with it, use top entrances. Top entrances are the secret of modern beekeeping, you know. :w


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## tanksbees (Jun 16, 2014)

My point is, you show us an entirely different kind of bottom board to what the OP posted, and claim the 10% difference is the landing board.

That means your previous design was 10% inefficient compared to your new design. It doesn't mean anything else. It doesn't mean that all landing boards are 10% more efficient.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Bees are using the 3 inch front bottom board. A lot of them are anchored down, fanning to ventilate the hive to dry honey. They also tend to land on it just in front of the entrance.









They use the bottom board to get clear to take off. Some bees are using the side of the super to take from.

The wider board with the writing on is there just to bridge the gap in the pallet.


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## BernhardHeuvel (Mar 13, 2013)

tanksbees said:


> ...


Oh I see. You think I am a bit simple minded or so. For your information: we tested it with several friends, different hive types and different landing boards. The above pictures were meant as suggestions and ideas. For constructions. 

Where are your ideas? Were are your pictures?


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## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

to answer the Op, yes, they do help. they have a role in the bee flight, and also when you transport them , that gives you some air space between hives. it has an esthetic role like in your hive. the lid you put on it, has no purpose, it is just looks. you could have put a flat lid on, but your sales might go down. see what I am saying? the flight board has a purpose. I know a lot of you guys tested them, and please allow me to doubt your expertise. I mean, all major beekeepers have some sort of fly board , being it 3 in or 1 or even half inch. there is always some flight board. bees will prefer it . now if you have 25000 holes in the box, yes, bees will fly thru all kinds of holes and maybe not use the frond door. 

Bernhard, I worked 4000 hives in France, for 5 years, we do not bred our bees to collect les propolis, on the contrary. I think our bees there do collect more of it. I know large beekeepers on Germany that would not be so impressed with your statement. propolis collection in bees is a sign of hygienic behavior. propolis is their medicine and if your bees do not collect any, that does not mean they are extremely hygienic, or that they will resist pests that good. the way we do things in Europe is totally different that here, so our ways will not work here. the way you have those pallets look great, I like it. I buy 4 way pallets here, made out of treated wood ( against water and ants ) for $8 /pallet. I get paid $35/hour. do you think I would put any effort in making those kind of pallets? in 1 h of work at my regular job I buy 4 pallets. 
here in America we do things different than Germany or France. there is no need to get upset, I think your point of view is valid, and so is everybody's opinion I think. the post was bout does fly boards, or landing boards really help. 

I really think they do, for several reasons. in your hive, it looks good on it , and maybe if you cut it out, your sales will go down. people that would pay for the type of hive you make, they want that ginger bread effect. I would say keep it on. 
it also has other reasons to be there, and I can tell you that it has been on most commercial hives since the invention of the commercial hive, so since we have kept this invention for over 100 years, I guess , like me, many beekeepers noticed it does help in some way their hive. there can be variations on the subject , but overall I believe it is a essential part of the hive. another suggestion, try to place a nice 1 in hole in the middle of the brood chamber, and add a small fly board there. you will see most bees will use that entrance to fly in and out. 

all you guys have a great day


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Barry said:


> A landing board is simply the approach to the entrance. If you're having mice get in, I dare say it's not because of the landing board, but too big of an entrance or an unprotected entrance.


I agree. Timing is important too. Get the entrance reducers on early. Though they don't always help, the snow gets deep enough here, I sometimes find mouse nests on top of the inner cover.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Was removing dead outs from a dead apiary this spring and this happened not once, not twice but FOUR times.

We were bucket brigade style moving hive bodies and supers. I'd carry them 1/3rd the way to the trailer, pass off to a guy who would pass them to a third guy. Long walk to the hives from where we are allowed to park. Got about to the second or third lot and I turn around to see my partner tossing the boxes I just handed him. He's yelling it's a rattle snake (in Illinois) so I say uh huh...let me look. The snake was beating it's tail on the box and it really sounded like a rattler but I knew the only rattle snakes in this state above I-70 are pygmy rattlers that some idiot brought here in the 1800's. Robert Allerton.

So after I killed the corn snake (lol) we get the next hive and it's the one with the mice that the snake has been eating live in. There were babies...aw so cute until they met my boot. 

There will be snakes and mice and you need to take precautions.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

I have some hives where the bottom board sticks out about an inch, some with a bit of a sloped landing board and some that are flush to the hive bodies. There isn't a noticeable different in honey production between them. The flush boards last longer, take less wood to construct and last longer. Any sticking out in the rain rots faster. If the hive isn't sloped forward it also funnels water into the hive during a hard rain.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Yes, if you do not mow your lawn(most out yards), landing boards are beneficial. 

Imagine a reversible bottom board with a sloped floor, so that the water always drained out. Crazy Idea, eh?

Yes, Barry, mouse guards make better mouse guards, as do strong hives.

Crazy Roland


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## Phoebee (Jan 29, 2014)

aunt betty said:


> So after I killed the corn snake (lol) we get the next hive and it's the one with the mice that the snake has been eating live in. There were babies...aw so cute until they met my boot.
> 
> There will be snakes and mice and you need to take precautions.


As a fellow who kept a corn snake as a pet for 24 years, and knows them to be about the gentlest, most inoffensive, and beneficial snakes I can think of, the thought of killing one this way brings tears to my eyes.


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## Firestix (Apr 1, 2015)

crocodilu911 said:


> to answer the Op, yes, they do help. they have a role in the bee flight, and also when you transport them , that gives you some air space between hives. it has an esthetic role like in your hive. the lid you put on it, has no purpose, it is just looks. you could have put a flat lid on, but your sales might go down. see what I am saying?


I believe that the gabled roof is both functional and aesthetically pleasing.
Its Functional because:
1- It has 1 1/2 inch screened holes on each side for more ventilation than a flat top. 
2- Any condensation that occurs runs down the side instead of dripping straight down on the girls.
3- it offers space for me to top fee (if I choose to do so) without having to add a separate feeding box.
4- I can remove the screens from the vents and create a top entrance.

It's aesthetically pleasing because:
1- well ... just look at it!


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## xphoney (Nov 7, 2014)

When I make a bottom board I just leave the extra wood sticking out instead of cutting it off. Since I have no need to have uniform size at this point, I sometimes get as much as 6 inches extra material in front. The bees use it for extra runway for fanning in the heat. It may or may not help but its less work for me to just leave it on.

It also gives them a little extra horizontal area to beard.

Andrew


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## Vince (Jun 22, 2014)

Yes, landing boards do help. No, trees don't have landing boards, nor do they have 2 deeps and 3 supers. Once you take the bees out of the tree, they become semi domesticated livestock and need to be treated as such. I have seen bees so heavily loaded with nectar that they literally smack into the landing board trying to land, without the landing board many more would miss the entrance. If they miss or bounce off they are too heavy to launch from the ground and need to climb up onto something to get flying again. In nature, these bees may never make it back to the hive. Nature takes care of this by the colony making excessive numbers of bees. We can take advantage of this my giving them better living conditions than they would have naturally, the result of this is we get to harvest excess honey. If you want to have bees (bee havers vs bee keepers), set up a log in your back yard with a hole in it and put the bees in there.


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