# Do you allow mites to kill your bees?



## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

No, I don't!

Nancy


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

There are no benefits in letting the colony die versus re-queening. When the old queen is gone it is a new ball game, her genetics failed and now the new queen has a chance to show what she can bring to the table.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

^ this
I started a thread in the TF area on this subject, it takes a few walks in the weeds, but there is a lot of good stuff 
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...tead-of-bond-as-the-path-to-TF-for-new-back-y


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

What do you do if some of your colonies die in spite of treating?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

AmericanA......
I have never had a hive die yet of disease but only in my second year. I have every intention (unless I get scared) of seeing one or two hive die before I interceede. If it happens, I will do an autopsy and look at things. I am also watching the hives pretty much every day from the entrances. I have not been inspecting the brood nest very hard or taking counts. I find it funny that everyone throws around the word lazy all the time even if that is the eventual reason for even seeing if it works. There are other reasons to take it to the edge. First, how do you really know if you don't take it to the edge. You could think they were going to die and so jump in and do something but you wouldn't really know they would have died cause you changed something before it happens. I see of no way to see what a hive failure looks like and learning what those signs are if you have never had any failures. I can read all day long but have noticed that on a lot of bee things I read (even the ones with pictures), when I get in my hives it does not look the same.

Every time a thread like this is started, the guy starting it says he just can't understand how some body could do this unless he is lazy. I could show several started in just this fassion. I look at it more like how can you know that you have to feed and what it does untill you have tried both. It is fine for somebody to tell you but you know more when you have actually seen stuff with your own eyes. Even seeing can be decieving if you don't really know what you are seeing.

I will tell it like I do evertime. Come spring when all the threads are asking how your bees have did, I will hope to have a good answer but can not tell you now what my answer will be then. I am not telling you before it happens how successful I may be because I don't know myself. I am telling you I "may know more next year then I know now. I see this as a plenty good reason to take a chance yet knowing a hive might die.

But yes, I am lazy too.
Cheers
gww


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

my mites have never killed any of my hives, now mites from other peoples hives have killed my hives.


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## Kalteisen (Mar 17, 2017)

I would always prefer to re-queen when there is time; pinch and combine when there isn't. But I'm also not heart broken if I lose a hive and it's the mites that were the cause; rather then my stupid mistakes. But I have no intention of using chemicals other then dry sugar so long as VSH and other mite tolerant queens are available.


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## Pondulinus (Jun 24, 2015)

Yes, by not treating or treating less, the hives that can manage the high mite load will do better than the ones that dont manage the high mite load. The ones that dont manage well will underperform or collapse and they will not be able to spread their genes. After some ammount of time nobody needs to treat because "all" your hives will manage the mites on their own.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

If you knowingly let mites collapse a colony, you are just as moral as someone who does not vaccinate their dogs against parvo or distemper. Or your horse against west nile or encephalitis. I fail to see the difference. When NOT IF I test and a colony is high quality mite feed, I requeen next queen order or availability. In the mean time you treat. Test your mite levels often.


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

SiWolKe said:


> What do you do if some of your colonies die in spite of treating?


Do not know. Have never had that happen.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Vance
I guess I am immoral. I had never heard of parvo or encephalitis. I am pretty sure my dog has not been vacinated for parvo and west nile was not around when we had horses. I did look these up so I knew what you were talking about. It made me wonder since the horse encephalitis can be caught by people if it was immoral that people are not vacinated for this also.

Immoral or not, I am not doing mite counts and that is the great thing about this world, nothing makes me put more value on my bees then someone would put on an african bee infestation in their attic or a fly. Being an agricultural product is what puts value on bees above the ant or fly.

Don't get me wrong, they are giving me enough enjoyment to want them to do well but then again, my daughter was distraught when her sand crab died also.

Plus there are people that have the belief that treating is really what is being cruel to the species of bees. I don't happen to be one of them because to tell the truth, I am not smart enough to know one way or the other.

Nothing wrong with you giving the advice of treating or even believing it is immoral to not do so. My wife thinks it is immoral to eat a chicken she has fed but has no issue eating the bought chickens she never knew. I am more of the persuasion that is not willing to go so far as to say a bee is that much more then a fly or an ant and that even if it were, those having success not treating and having a differring view of the big picture are also not immoral for handling it differrent then you and giving differrent advice. It is hard to argue that someone that is doing something that they consider successful as being wrong. It seems funny to me that it is ok to smash a queen but not ok to let a bee die. If the over all ideal is for the bee spiecies and not individual bees, then I sure am not smart enough to throw stones yet. But I may treat to save my money if that is what it comes down to and the speicies be dammed.
Cheers
gww


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## Matt yocham (Aug 3, 2016)

I would not want my bees to die because i dont want to have to replace them. I think the time and small amout of money it takes to treat is cheaper then me buying more bees. If bees didnt coast me money and was easy for me to get i wouldnt treat either i guess.


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## Fivej (Apr 4, 2016)

I have never died from high cholesterol or high blood pressure, but I am taking the advice of my doctor and taking the meds he prescribed because I don't want to find out if he was really correct. He has a lot more education and experience than I do, and I respect that. Sure, I could have had a couple of heart attacks or a stroke to be sure he was correct, but I didn't. Just seems logical and prudent. You know, common sense. J


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Fivej
For a heart condition what you say is true although those same doctors say vegans live the longest with the fewest health problims. I have decided that living the longest I can no matter what the cost is not my goal. That is why I still climb in my car even knowing it is safer not to. I enjoy knowing these things so that I can use what is commen sense for me to put them into perspective of which kind of life I would like to live for as long as my choices using that info allow. This view does not discount those experts.

The thing with bees is that people like riverderwent and squarepeg and michael bush and, and , and, are also having successes and not treating. Mel dieselkoen makes numerous late splits knowing that a percentage of them will not make it but playing a numbers game that lets him end up with more bees to sell then most. Who would I be or any expert be to say that he has no common sense because he is keeping bees that way. He would not agree with somebody else saying he is not successful and has no common sence as he puts his money in the bank.

I say some of these guys mentioned above are experts in thier respective fields and so finding the things that these doctors are doing might be considered common sence. 

I would say it is common sence to try and see why people are having thier success but not that it is not common sence to listen to only one unless that one is the one you want to have the exact success that he is having.
Cheers
gww


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## schmism (Feb 7, 2009)

Groundhwg said:


> Do not know. Have never had that happen.


you must be new to beekeeping. If you havnt lost hives your sitting at home arm chair quarterbacking because there is no such thing as keeping bees and not looseing any.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

A requeened hive is a new hive. 
Requeening every year is creating new colonies out of the old ones.
Splitting is creating a new surplus hive.

So if you who claim to never have losses would let your bees just be bees without interfering with the natural multiplying you would see that losses are normal, even with treated bees.
Losses are not always mite losses.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

AR Beekeeper said:


> There are no benefits in letting the colony die versus re-queening. When the old queen is gone it is a new ball game, her genetics failed and now the new queen has a chance to show what she can bring to the table.


I think there are.

When I started my Project back in 2001, although sort of using IPM tactics when step by step disminishing treatments 2001-2008, I had several unanswered questions, which in the end made me decide that IPM is not the way to go:

- What is an acceptable level of mites in a hive which can be considered more resistant? Is it under 1%, under 5%, under 10% or under 20%? I did not know when would be the right time to interfere.

- Do I need to check the mite levels both in brood and adult bees to get accurated enough result? If mites in brood need to be checked too, at least once a month to be able to interfere in the right time and avoid collapses, it becomes quite laborous.

- Are there thresh holds after which bees activate and start more seriously fight mites? In those years there were lots of talking of such existing. Later my own experience has shown that there actually might be ones. Bees becoming extremely angry in the middle of summer, and calming down towards autumn, with lower mite numbers than in spring. To get an idea where these thresh holds are you cannot start with IPM, you need to get "over the line" at least some years. 

- What is the influence of the mites which are already in the hive when a new queen is installed? Example: Do I get right results for my young queens, if one hive has 6% infestation and the other has 9% (treatment thresh hold over 5 % infestation)

For these reasons I summed up that IPM is not my way to go. It may well be that I made the wrong decission, but there was nobody to give advise. Today there are lots of them, here in Beesource too, alhough have done nothing themselves.


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## Planner (Apr 3, 2016)

I have tried a variety of techniques to eliminate or reduce mites.I have been partially successful. On the other hand the chemicals used for treatment are extremely toxic. If you haven't read the labels i suggest you do so before using any treatment.I simply do not want to expose myself to those chemicals even if I take the proper precautions. I have listened to several discussions about treating and I have yet to hear any of the speakers discuss the toxic effects of the treatment on human health nor the type of precautions to use when treating. I give a lot of my honey to persons that are cancer survivors and I cant in good faith put any chemicals into my hives. I won't eat it and I don't want my family eating it as I am convinced the chemicals will accumulate in the comb. I also don't accept the argument that by not treating my hives will affect nearby apiaries. If they are treating their hives then that should help resolve their mite loads even if my bees decide to go there. I also do not accept the premise of killing the existing queens and replacing as most often no one knows the genetic characteristics of the new queens.We now have everyone in the world raising and selling queens, another disaster in the making. So before you buy into replacing queens, ask about the genetics of the new queens and I think you will find almost nobody really knows.The problem as I see it is that bee populations throughout the US and world have succumbed to mites and treating simply perpetuates the breeding of sick insects. This will be a never ending problem. Finally do not compare treating insects to human health conditions or even the health conditions of livestock, dogs or cats. Although these medications for humans and animals have side affects they are not toxic to administer and do not enter our food supply. Just an opinion from an old beekeeper.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Ah... "morality"...
That is one of the most slippery words in language because it means different things according to where on earth you are located. What may be considered high morals in Tibet might not be so acceptable in New Jersey.

Before we have any future conversation on the topic of morality I think we'd be best served by defining it (morality) first. 

Do mites kill my bees? Yeah, no, yeah, no, yeah "you want some carmex?".


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

schmism said:


> you must be new to beekeeping. If you havnt lost hives your sitting at home arm chair quarterbacking because there is no such thing as keeping bees and not looseing any.


Two years with just mine and 11 years with Dad's. We feel key is getting out of your lounge chair and being active at meeting the needs of our bees that we can and also when able just letting bees be bees.


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## Richard Cryberg (May 24, 2013)

Juhani Lunden said:


> I think there are.
> 
> When I started my Project back in 2001, although sort of using IPM tactics when step by step disminishing treatments 2001-2008, I had several unanswered questions, which in the end made me decide that IPM is not the way to go:
> 
> ...


You are not doing IPM correctly so it does not work. It is not mites that kill bees. It is viruses that mites transmit that kill bees. So what you want to watch is what is your virus level and treat the mites when the virus level is high. It is easy enough to know what the virus level is doing. Just look at the hive entrance and ground around your hives. Obviously some hives tolerate very high mite levels and others do not. Requeen those that do not tolerate viruses and get the mite level down to the starting point.

It is interesting how virus levels go up and down from year to year. I wonder why? Last year I would estimate my virus level was 10X what it is this year. But even with the higher level last year I had excellent winter survival with only four losses out of 31. Maybe those four were the ones contributing most of the virus ridden bees I saw? The year before last was a low virus year like this year.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Richard Cryberg said:


> You are not doing IPM correctly so it does not work. It is not mites that kill bees. It is viruses that mites transmit that kill bees. So what you want to watch is what is your virus level and treat the mites when the virus level is high. It is easy enough to know what the virus level is doing. Just look at the hive entrance and ground around your hives. Obviously some hives tolerate very high mite levels and others do not. Requeen those that do not tolerate viruses and get the mite level down to the starting point.
> 
> It is interesting how virus levels go up and down from year to year. I wonder why? Last year I would estimate my virus level was 10X what it is this year. But even with the higher level last year I had excellent winter survival with only four losses out of 31. Maybe those four were the ones contributing most of the virus ridden bees I saw? The year before last was a low virus year like this year.


My selection has worked very well, thank you. Selling expensive breeder queens to Europes biggest producers, who have tested them with hundreds of daughters in their country and others.

I have done selection in in the way you described all the time. No grafts from hives with virus symptoms. 



Have your mite levels gone down during the years of checking virus levels? Who has tested your results?
I suppose you are still treating.


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## AmericanApiaries (Jan 27, 2017)

SiWolKe said:


> What do you do if some of your colonies die in spite of treating?





schmism said:


> you must be new to beekeeping. If you havnt lost hives your sitting at home arm chair quarterbacking because there is no such thing as keeping bees and not looseing any.


Last winter I went in with 54 and came out with 49. I have ~75 colonies right now and it takes me a day to mite wash all of them. I want bees that keep mite levels low, not bees that tolerate high mite levels - so if a colonies level is shooting up I treat and requeen. As a hobbyist with not a lot of colonies, mites should be easy to manage.



Kalteisen said:


> I would always prefer to re-queen when there is time; pinch and combine when there isn't. But I'm also not heart broken if I lose a hive and it's the mites that were the cause; rather then my stupid mistakes. But I have no intention of using chemicals other then dry sugar so long as VSH and other mite tolerant queens are available.


Kalteisen - you may have no problem letting your own bees die, do you not care if you kill a neighbors bees as well? Do you not care that you are flooding your local ecosystem with a foreign parasite by letting a colony collapse? DWV has been found in bumble bees. Killing other peoples bees and native pollinators doesn't bother you? Learn to do a mite wash and start monitoring mite levels. Dry sugar is not very effective and resistant/tolerant bees still need to be managed. 



Planner said:


> I have tried a variety of techniques to eliminate or reduce mites.I have been partially successful. On the other hand the chemicals used for treatment are extremely toxic. If you haven't read the labels i suggest you do so before using any treatment.I simply do not want to expose myself to those chemicals even if I take the proper precautions. I have listened to several discussions about treating and I have yet to hear any of the speakers discuss the toxic effects of the treatment on human health nor the type of precautions to use when treating. I give a lot of my honey to persons that are cancer survivors and I cant in good faith put any chemicals into my hives. I won't eat it and I don't want my family eating it as I am convinced the chemicals will accumulate in the comb. I also don't accept the argument that by not treating my hives will affect nearby apiaries. If they are treating their hives then that should help resolve their mite loads even if my bees decide to go there. I also do not accept the premise of killing the existing queens and replacing as most often no one knows the genetic characteristics of the new queens.We now have everyone in the world raising and selling queens, another disaster in the making. So before you buy into replacing queens, ask about the genetics of the new queens and I think you will find almost nobody really knows.The problem as I see it is that bee populations throughout the US and world have succumbed to mites and treating simply perpetuates the breeding of sick insects. This will be a never ending problem. Finally do not compare treating insects to human health conditions or even the health conditions of livestock, dogs or cats. Although these medications for humans and animals have side affects they are not toxic to administer and do not enter our food supply. Just an opinion from an old beekeeper.


Planner I can understand your apprehension. I am a chemist and I do not use Amitraz for the simple reason that I read the safety data sheet and would not feel good putting a chemical that can cause birth defects and potentially cancer in close proximity to a food product. I monitor mite levels in my bees closely and when I see a colony that is building mites quickly, I change the genetics of that colony and knock the mite level back to low so I can reasonably see if the new genetics are effective at holding down mite levels. I use IPM techniques like brood breaks and artificial swarming as much as possible, but I do not feel bad about using Oxalic acid. Oxalic acid is naturally present in many foods including honey, and is water soluble meaning that it will not build up in wax over time. It is corrosive in its concentrated form, but is not at all comparable to Amitraz in terms of a health hazard. 


I know this thread has been made before but I hope it can convince somebody. Like I said in the OP, I don't have anything against an IPM approach or chemical free. I spend a huge amount of time and effort to avoid using chemicals myself. What I can't understand is letting your bees collapse. There is a nursery near where I live and every year for the last 3 or 4 years they have bought 50 nucs, neglected them and let them collapse from mites. All the while perpetuating the "save the bees" eco friendly BS to sell their honey. 

If you let mites overwhelm and kill your bees- whether it takes one or two years- other bees near by will rob your dead bees, pick up the mites and bring them home. 

Lazy, irresponsible, or extremely misguided.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

American A


> Lazy, irresponsible, or extremely misguided.


The position you seem to be takeing is that for your bees to do well you need others to do as you do. You compleetly discount the view that it might be your bees that are really effecting others by the way you prop them up and then send out drones. 

How many swarms have you lost to the trees that go on and die because they have no chance of survival due to how you manage. How many of those swarms have your own bees robbed and brought back home. I don't even understand where you are coming from for sure. On the one hand you say you are a great bee keeper and have all the hives and hardly any die but on the other hand you are talking about somebody buying 50 nucs and them all dieing and insinuating they are killing your bees. Then you bring up honey sales and insinuate that yours is better and they have a big thing of saving the bees that is not true but say you do add stuff to your hive and they don't.

Maby they are saving the bees by having thier weak hives die while yours propogate. 

I really don't have hard beliefs yet on what mite pressure does for survival but am smart enough to know that whatever my beliefs are, I can't expect to be able to control all those around me and all the wild bees to boot and so just do what it takes for me to reach the level of success that makes me happy.

From your last post it seems this thread is more about what your compatition is doing locally that upsets you.

It is fine that you believe and promote what you believe and even try to put down others who believe differrently or are at least open to the possibilities.

You will be dissapointed if you think everyone around you is going to have the same belief as you can see by the example you gave with the 50 nucs. How has bad mouthing what they do helped your honey sales? If they have 50 out of 50 die each year and still have honey to sell, I would say the ones robbing the hives is them and not your bees.

I am not buying that all those out there that are not treating and having some success even if there were some growing pains are destroying the world. 

Just so you know, I am not buying that you are destroying the world by treating either cause niether can be controlled (unless you add the death penalty to not treating and kill all wild bees) and so I just intend to watch my bees and try to learn what I need to do with my bees to get what I think is success.
Good luck
gww


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## AmericanApiaries (Jan 27, 2017)

Let me explain it in finer detail for you GWW - I cull all the bees I have that don't hold mite levels in check. But I don't let them collapse and spread mites around. So no I do not hold back the development of resistance by sending non resistant drones to my local DCA. If anything, people who let their bees collapse are holding back the development of resistance by not giving any of the local bees a fair chance. 

Those people who let their bees die killed my bees a few years ago, so I don't keep bees there anymore. Every year they let 50 colonies die. Youre **** right I have a problem with that. I don't care much about honey sales. I do this because it is fun and because my grandpa and dad did it. 

I am not a great beekeeper. It doesn't take a great beekeeper to manage mites - even without chemicals. It takes a fool to think letting them collapse is doing anything but harm - not only to other beekeepers but to the local native pollinators.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

American A
I have a question. Lets take out how much better I could have done and just put a small example out. If I had two hives and with those two hives I made 8 hives. Then along comes winter and kills a bunch of them hives, say half. So in year two I have 4 hives after having lost 4. Am I still saving the bees because now there are more bees then there were last year? Now that in one year the bees have doubled and there are now twice as many?
Cheers
gww

Ps I will let a couple die probly before I change my way of bee keeping but just so you know, The above is just discussion and I find pushing good discussion is also a good way to firm up ideals and beliefs of course untill something else comes along and adds more and changes them again. I really don't know and just go with my thinking right now.

Ps ps I also do it because I retired and like to have fun things keep me busy at home.


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## AmericanApiaries (Jan 27, 2017)

GWW,

I'm not sure what your point is. Mine is that letting mites kill your bees is not only unproductive, it damages other peoples property and hurts the local native bees too. I hope this thread can convince someone to take better care of their bees. 

Mites are easily managed. Even if you don't want to use chemicals you can still do it. Doing nothing is gross negligence IMHO.


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## AmericanApiaries (Jan 27, 2017)

I appreciate the honest discussion gww. Only my opinion of course. I feel that a lot of people are probably well meaning and do not understand the damage they are doing.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

American A


> Mites are easily managed. Even if you don't want to use chemicals you can still do it. Doing nothing is gross negligence IMHO.


Or it could be that doing nothing could eventually add up to being able to do nothing forever. IMHO

I would also say this. Some bees are going to die from something to keep life even. If every person had what I had with two hives making eight hives and nothing ever died, there would be nothing in the world but bees. It would be like putting a rat on a deserted island with no preditors. There would be no equalibrium. The rats would populate, eat all the food and be susceptible to some diseise when lack of food started making them weak. 

You say it is easy to keep mites in check but you still take a day a month on a pretty small amount of hives but still have more hives then some one with two and probly lose more swarms that you can not check than a guy with two and so impact wise might have a worse (or better) impact on how many mites are actually being born.

Maby a 50 percent death rate with whats being left alive having more success on thier own against mites makes the hives lost worth losing.

I am not set in my mind that this is so but I am not quite as willing to discount it and call people that do believe it as negligent. 

For every one to be convinced by this thread that your way is the only way that is not negligent you would have to take on the selective pressure discussion and make good enough points that there is nothing to it to get to the point of convincing those who may think differrently and are having some success doing that differrent thinking. You yourself change queens in an effort to go that route and so must believe there is some merit to bee succeptability. Maby you are not going far enough because you set the bar to low and are actually hurting you eventual goal? I mean you have to pick some level or you doing counts mean nothing. Is your level of action also better then everyones because there is less risk of a hive dieing? It is easy to make black and white statements but the convincing would take much more info.
Cheers
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

American A
Have your read anyone saying they were surprized by a high mite count and then later were surprized that the bees got them lowered on thier own?
Cheers
gww


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

America A


> I appreciate the honest discussion gww. Only my opinion of course. I feel that a lot of people are probably well meaning and do not understand the damage they are doing.


:thumbsup:
Cheers
gww


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

IMO what happens behind your back in the bee yards is hard to influence, even with IPM or requeening.

There can be silent robbing or drone drifting between your hives and therefore results of monitoring are influenced.

If queens are not artificial inseminated, you don´t know which genes your new bred queens will have.

I´m still inexperienced, but the first winter I had no losses, the second I had 10 out of 14, but only 4 were mite losses, the others queen problems. Matings went bad that year and I´m not yet adapted to my hive system.

Richard Cryberg, so far I did not see many virus infested bees or pupa but still I had 4 mite crashes. I believe there can be virus weakened bees and you do not realize this. Hives die in winter then.

What Juhani Lunden says has much truth. It´s hard to work with thresholds. You may treat your best hives. Those who do and use some IPM have more success though as I see it. 

Personally I will go the IPM way but it may be that in the end it´s live or die for the bees because my thresholds will still be too much for the bees.

My experience with beekeepers who treat and non treating ones is that every part has "lazy" or engaged members. A lazy treating beekeeper is much more danger to me than a tf lazy one, because the treater will have more susceptible drones flying. The lazy tf will have gotten rid of those with winter crash.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> but still I had 4 mite crashes


Honestly to DRRC's point your crashes we very likely viral, vectored by mites, but viral just the same.
Randy Oliver, American Bee Journal, June 2017


> We don’t need to breed for varroa-tolerant bees—our bees were already quite tolerant when varroa first invaded. Back then, we could allow varroa to build up until the colony was literally crawling with mites, and notice no sign of harm so long as we hit the hive with a single treatment of Apistan each fall [5].
> 
> All that changed as the viruses evolved to take advantage of varroa as a vector. Dr. Stephen Martin was the first to deduce that it was an in-hive epidemic of virus, rather than the mite, that was the real problem, although he had a helluva time convincing the research community that this was true [6].
> 
> After a few years of evolution, in most every country (South Africa being an exception) we watched Deformed Wing Virus (DWV) evolve into a more virulent form [7], and colonies would collapse at mite levels that were previously well-tolerated [8].


this is why thresholds are tricky as it very dependent on virus loads 



> A lazy treating beekeeper is much more danger to me than a tf lazy one, because the treater will have more susceptible drones flying. The lazy tf will have gotten rid of those with winter crash.


I disagree as the lazy treater is impacting no more or less then any outher treater. Were as the lazy TF keeper who lets there hives crash with often the same stock and the same impact on your mating can also crash your hives do to the mite bombs, Often those susceptible drones and not gotten rid up in the crash, they are simply replaced come spring with new hives of simulnalr gentinicks 
Further more there are plenty of "TF" methods out there that can prop up poor genetics, couple that with the popularity of natural comb and foundation less with the TF bunch creating 4+ times the drones compared to foundation (4% on foundation- Oliver, 17% on natural comb-Seeley) you can see how a TF keeper could have more negative impack on you.[
With the exception of mite bombs, the problem is not our neighbors, Randy's queen zero and John Kefuss' program show us that queen side TF traits ARE out there. and if you don't like what your virgins are mating with, fix it, It not like the solution is unknow or out of the price range of most


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Sure, if I don't treat............


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## Groundhwg (Jan 28, 2016)

snl said:


> Sure, if I don't treat............


Just might be the best answer in this whole thread!


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Msl


> this is why thresholds are tricky as it very dependent on virus loads


I agree with this. You could be in an area where the virus is just meaner or you could have two hives with the same virus but one got set back with chalk brood in spring and just did not have the resources to forage as well and the extra stress makes them more susceptable to the weak virus. The wether could have made the queen not get bred as well or as quick and that stressor could cause weakness. You could have strong hives being more easily sickened. The envoroment could have better forage some years. Mite vector virus but hives do live with the mites and the virus with other things causeing it to actually hurt. I guess you could take the position that you could help with one of the stressors by taking out some mites but in the end some hives are going to have the cards stack up just right to kill them. If the mites are not stacking those cards up so high that you can still be successful with out adressing them and can still take the money to the bank, then who is to say that it is a bad bee keeper who reconizes that and decides he is happy with what he is getting.

I know very heathy people who catch a cold sometimes doing the same thing that I am doing when I don't catch it. I know that my hives are not always in the same stage of development even though they sit right beside each other.

Me and the wife some times argue wether the lawn needs mowing and pretty much argue from our respective positions (I do the mowing and she want to look good to the neibor)
Cheers
gww


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## dennis crutchfield (Aug 5, 2016)

its not immoral to let bee's die or our creator would be immoral. bees die for a number of reasons. yes it is expensive to let the bees die, but several around the country have done so and shortened the trip in finding a resistant bee. I let mine die off because I refused to have chemicals in my hives for health reasons. if you can afford new queens go for it. but now I just raise my own and haven't treated in 17 yrs. you can keep the mites at bay for breaking up their cycle by splitting and requeening. some of my success has been by letting them draw out their own comb and now my cells range from 4.5 -4.9 and up.. no problems here. did a check and found no mites at all this year. If and when I find I am failing with varroa. I will fog with oc acid. but I haven't got the beetle problem solved yet. but my mite resistant bees or keeping them at bay without help. And I am fighting everyday to keep my gentle line going. I did start with great lines, harbor, Purvis, marla spivik, weaver amercian and buckfast as well as some wild bees. that may of helped me a lot. I hear someone say I don't believe their is a mite resistant bee. I just smile  each their own...


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Richard Cryberg said:


> You are not doing IPM correctly so it does not work.


Can you show a study where breeding with IPM management has lead to higher varroa resistance? I remember there was one study done by German institutes in Turkey, but nothing has been heard of those bees since. There were some communication/education problems in that study because the work was done by the Turkish beekeepers.

Can you show a practical work of a bee breeder who has bred with IPM methods higher varroa resistance? 



Richard Cryberg said:


> It is easy enough to know what the virus level is doing. Just look at the hive entrance and ground around your hives. Obviously some hives tolerate very high mite levels and others do not. Requeen those that do not tolerate viruses and get the mite level down to the starting point.





Juhani Lunden said:


> Have your mite levels gone down during the years of checking virus levels?


You did not answer this. This is important because no matter how much we look at virus damage or levels it is the mite levels which need to get down. IMO in the end when we have a varroa resistant beestock the mite levels are naturally low. Or do you think that the end result might be a bee with high mite load and just extremely good virus resistance. How long would that last?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

snl,
you have your own reason to propagate treating which in my eyes is not the moral not to kill bees but to sell some equipment.

Juhani, here on Beesource many posted their experience with IPM, what I like about this path is that you don´t loose so many colonies and have some bees left to move better survivor queens to.
This path needs much more time and work but is more stable without so many setbacks. 
You yourself introduced other queen strains into your bee yards, this is IPM too.

The approach fusion_power did is an example to me. 

Erik Österlund as a humble person would not claim to have the resistant stock to sell but we tested this queens for 3 years now ( mostly my co-worker does) and they seem to be more resistant than other strains.
Therefore we ordered three more queens which just now are introduced into 3 swarms.
Our small group will use the genetics in their bee yards.

My two survivors in the one yard were the elgon F1 and the carni queen which must have mated with my neighbors russians. The local queens hives crashed just as the "resistant" original south queen did.
Could be I have to start new next spring. Then I will purchase local colonies and introduce the better queens. Maybe order some queens from Erik again.

I see in the yards of my friend that the virus is present. Still his losses are average range with tf and treating. He himself did both the last years and there was no mite bomb. His careful treatments of his susceptible colonies prevented this. Since all treated here cull drones too the drone input is not a big problem. More and more his area is flooded with tf drones.

With careful treatment the mites from tf so far were not a problem too ,even if they are placed right beside the treated.
By the way, he never counts mites. He breeds from the hives that thrive the most. Just as easy as that.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> Erik Österlund as a humble person would not claim to have the resistant stock ...


Yes I agree.

Speaking of humbleness, openness and honesty I hate Internet sites like this http://www.resistantbees.com/over_e.html#introe

There is no information who is behind this mostly untrue or unverified information? 

On a site titled "Resistant bees" there is link to Eriks blog. I hope he does not disagree it being there. 



https://www.dropbox.com/s/ubi47hac8u4s27h/Screenshot 2017-08-11 12.05.28.png?dl=0


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Oh, the resistant Bees forum is where I was member and got banned, being a sceptic.

It´s the forum of Stephan Braun, a follower of Dee Lusby and an autocrat. He is not a friend of you because you have no small cells!

Erik is linked to many blogs and websites, he is just an open person to all kinds of beekeeping.
But he never posts there.

Juhani, you are not a humble person yourself, but you are honest and open.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Juhani Lunden said:


> There is no information who is behind this mostly untrue or unverified information?


Juhani, you should really inform yourself more before posting something like that.

For example as you can see here:
https://resistantbees.com/blog/?page_id=1664
Stephan Braun uses very professional information ( Harbo, Erik, Kirk and all others) to post them on his site. He is posting the experience and observing mostly of others not his own.

Most of this information is verified and true even if he sometimes is overcome by his own opinions.
But that´s how we all are!

I´m not interested anymore in his personality but in the way he keeps bees. Same with Dee Lusby. Is she not the one starting us all on the path to become tf? And she is still successful.

Stephan Braun is the only one giving such informations in the german language except me trying to do this in my forum.

Even as I´m banned and he does´t like to work with newbies I learned much from him and he is a great beekeeper, treatment free for over 15 years now and 30 years experience.

And he is not as arrogant to say we as small beekeepers will not be able to it. And he is not selling queens but gives all information for free to propagate tf.

Do you remember posting this in my thread?


> I don´t want anybody to buy my queens. If I wanted to sell queens, I would lower the price. Once more: I don´t want you to buy my queens. It is a bad idea. But we, you and I, need more resistant stocks, that is why I´m always interested in getting my hands on new untreated material. The new queens need to be tested first of course, in my circumstanses. If they are good, they are crossed. Often they get AFB and are no good for breeding. One queen tells nothing for sure, you need more. Sadly there are not many places where queens are for sale which are from 8 years or more untreated stock. Josef Koller, Hartmut Schneider and Jürgen Brausse, they are the only names to my knowledge, since Paul Jungels is not selling queens. But I suppose your and Sibylles minds are set in such a manner, that the idea of getting good bees from these guys to start with is not a good idea. It would make Sibylles life so much more easier.


I don´t want anybody to buy my queens? :scratch: So you pay the italiens for buying them?
Paul Jungels? A co-worker was visiting his speaking and told me he still treats with OA. :s

My mind is at ease with our good experience with the elgons. Still, the co-workers have survivors with local mutts. Why is that? And why do you want to test some of those? 

Kirk Webster once said: every tf bee yard ( or hive) must go through some crises once or twice. So one I had and the next will come. Just like Kirk`s experience maybe is and just like yours. Queens being bred or not, many hives or not.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> Do you allow mites to kill your bees?


No. The mites don´t ask. Use some IPM or treat and maybe not all colonies die. But have in mind to be tf. All beekeepers to be tf would be great.



> Erik Österlund:
> All of us seem to have to go through some kind of purgatory, longer or shorter in time. I didn't want to use pesticides like Apistan as residues of it builds up in wax and propolis. And I didn't want to use acids because of the risks for myself, as well as for the bees.


He uses thymol as IPM treating the susceptibles and shifting the queens. He breeds from the not treated. His aim: to be completely tf without crashes every + - 6 years.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> Juhani, you should really inform yourself more before posting something like that.




The very basic idea behind Internet site "Resistantbees" is small cells having effect in varroa resistance, which is the scam of the century in beekeeping. 

Examle:
In the front page with BIG LETTERS: 

The solution, Die Lösung

That is a link, which jumps into a page which tells about the ideas and believs of the Luzbys.
Every highlighted sentance begins with words: "We believe..."

Scientific? Verified?



SiWolKe said:


> Paul Jungels? A co-worker was visiting his speaking and told me he still treats with OA. :s
> 
> And why do you want to test some of those?


Paul has a TF apiary, about 15 hives, in the side of his normal apiary of 300(?) hives. 

Testing new beematerial is the very basic job of every breeder. Has been for as long as there has been beebreeders.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

> Paul has a TF apiary, about 15 hives, in the side of his normal apiary of 300(?) hives.


Makes me wonder why he did not tell this to my friend who introduced himself as a tf beekeeper. 15 hives? Nice, just like a hobbyist!

That an elite thinking you all have, is it not? 

*WE BELIEVE* that *tf* beekeeping should be for everyone, and we really hope we will be helped by some professionals. More than 800 000 colonies in Germany are kept by hobbyists, I read today in a magazine.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> 15 hives? Nice, just like a hobbyist!


I don´t know the exact number, many more more Mini-Plus hives untreated.
http://www.apisjungels.lu/betriebsweise-home.html


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> That an elite thinking you all have, is it not?


????

Hard to understand you, very hard.


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## Aroc (May 18, 2016)

This is a fascinating discussion. I normally would not interject my thought on these types of threads but....as good discussions do...it got me thinking.

Where I live cattle is one of the major agricultural industries. I do believe that not treating your herd for potential diseases is a crime. The reason isn't because of the failure of your herd but the potential failure of your neighbors herd....even if they vaccinated, there is a chance of spreading a disease..... couldn't the same be said of honeybees? I'm sure it's not against the law to not treat for mites but in our culture of over regulation, I could see it happening if we see a large number of beekeepers doing nothing to control the spread of varroa destructor.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Aroc
Like anything, all things can be taken too far. They could go so far as to come on your land and kill any ferals or fine you if you lose a swarm, other wise it would be hard to prove that you caused something insted of something was caused to you. How many cows run off and become wild? I know some will jump to the conclusion that I am promoting everyting is ok if there is no proof. What I am really doing is saying, for your stuff you can have any belief you want. You can point your finger at others cause you can not keep your bees alive. What you can not do is prove it is that bad because there are many treaters and untreaters that are keeping thier hives alive even with all the things you are scared of others are doing being around them too. If they can do it by watching thier bees and reacting to thier bees in a way that works, you should be able to also regaurdless of what others do or how many ferals are around. The proof is out there that it can be done.

The above is not a position on treating or not treating it is on doing what it take with what your bees enviroment makes you do to keep them alive. Some are keeping bees alive with out treating and others are keeping thier bees alive with treating and no matter what you think, if you lose a swarm, you have untreated bees around. People seem to have success keeping bees alive in all situations.
Cheers
gww
Ps 
Cattle are not wild and are agricultural. If you only take the side of the agracutural you would have to make rules against the wild, bees are wild as well as agricultural.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Nobody wants to keep the dead bees. Three season ago I had a hive crashed situation. The seller 
sold me some non-resistant queens. So I thought everything was fine and dandy until all the hives got crashed.
Trying to be tf back then I did not treat any of my hives. What a lesson learned back then. Seller had lied to me!
So no, nobody want dead bees that they have to keep on buying packages and nucs to replaced the dead hives year after year. Some have to treat because they don't want to lose money again repeating the same yearly problem. I don't see a way out back then and started hunting from apiary to apiary big to small trying to sourced these resistant bees. They will all go through my strict queen evaluation and type A mite processes. The purpose is of course to sourced the local apiaries to see which one will live up to its reputation even though they all said we have the resistant bees. Many claimed that theirs are from the bee labs somewhere but cannot live up to it. One source got the resistant alright but their bees are so aggressive that even on the ant hills for a month they will keep on surviving. Haa, 2nd time putting hive on an ant hill unknowingly, of course. This hive survived alright. Wonder what they will do in the SHB country regions? Those hardy aggressive resistant bees I will passed, thanks you.


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## AmericanApiaries (Jan 27, 2017)

delete


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## AmericanApiaries (Jan 27, 2017)

Aroc said:


> This is a fascinating discussion. I normally would not interject my thought on these types of threads but....as good discussions do...it got me thinking.
> 
> Where I live cattle is one of the major agricultural industries. I do believe that not treating your herd for potential diseases is a crime. The reason isn't because of the failure of your herd but the potential failure of your neighbors herd....even if they vaccinated, there is a chance of spreading a disease..... couldn't the same be said of honeybees? I'm sure it's not against the law to not treat for mites but in our culture of over regulation, I could see it happening if we see a large number of beekeepers doing nothing to control the spread of varroa destructor.


I agree and think that is a great comparison Aroc. Honey bees are not native to the U.S., they are livestock that were brought here. And the overwhelming majority of bees kept here are commercial bees that cannot survive on their own in large part because they were bred to be livestock.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

American A.......
However, they might as well be considered native cause they were bought here in the 1700s along with almost every single thing that is grown in a garden. The days of being able to go through a whole state in the trees with out having to touch the ground are long gone and the prairies of long grass that streched on for ever and were grazed by the buffolo and burned by the natives have changed and today is no reflection of what they were before the europeans arived and made the america land scape and plant reflect what they had in europe. There is no doubt that bees have some of them been surviving on their own or people like tom seeley would not have an arnot forrest to study.

The bees have survived and spread and the landscape reflects that. 

I do not think that all people are relieing on commercial bees for their polination now days and the past and that america is long gone.

The attitude that the only good bee is a commercial bee could justify the position that all ferals should be killed so that we can garantee only treated bees are around.
Cheers
gww


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## AmericanApiaries (Jan 27, 2017)

gww,

No doubt there are lines of feral bees that have existed on their own for hundreds of years now despite varroa, pesticides, changes in land use, and everything else that has been thrown at them. So I agree with you that the genes for a bee that can survive without help are definately out there.

I did not say the commercial strains are better in any sense, just that the overwhelming majority of bees kept and produced here are commercial strains. They have been bred for a long time to be responsive to stimulus and build up big brood nests and high populations so they can make big honey crops and pollinate. These same traits that make them well suited for commercial use make them dependent on beekeeper management to survive over time. These bees are livestock and should be treated as such. 

I do not believe all bees should be treated with chemicals, but I do believe mites need to be managed in some capacity or it qualifies as negligence in my opinion. It has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with the well established fact that a colony collapsing from mites floods the local ecosystem with varroa that damage feral bees, neighboring managed bees, and native polinators as well. 

As I have said previously, I have worked hard for years to try and improve my bees resistance to mites and I believe I have seen a difference from my efforts, albeit a small one. There was a time when they would collapse in August without treatment and now that is almost never the case.

My original point in the thread is that there is no benefit to letting them collapse and starting over vs. knocking the mite level back to near zero and requeening.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

American
I only repond when it is said that something has to be done a certain way or it is negligence and the my opinion part is left out. I respond for two reasons. I add the cavett that when it is mentioned what should be a law, I respond even more, because a law goes past opinion to making just one thing right.

The two reasons to respond are
1. Even if you hold a certain opinion, there are too many things out of your control to do more then watch you own bees and do what it takes to keep them alive. That might mean more then one treatment a year or might mean nothing.

2. For others out there that are keeping bees in a differrent way, I am less willing to say they are bad because such and such is happening and they are not handling it like I would.

I also think people are going to lose hives period and might say cause they didn't reconize the wether well enough and feed or because they didn't look enough to see condensation or mites.

Cows were brought up. They are differrent because there are no wild ones but even keeping them, One is going to say it is poor stewardship to not give them steroids and antibiotics and the grass fed guy is going to think the guys doing the steroids and antibiotics are going to ruin it for humans and then they all get to look down on the guy that raises veal.

Back in the 90s there was even a big push to put chickens to sleep before they were killed for butchering. There was a push to change small chicken raising over seas to have to keep them in a fassion that they could have zero interaction with wild birds. Now it was some ones opinion that that was good but I keep chickens that have the run of the place and wild birds come and feed at thier feeder. Am I taking more risk of a comunale bird disiese, of course I am. But am I wrong when looking at the big picture and maby even the chickens standard of living, Then I am only worse if my chicken gets one of those disieses and even then it might be better. I bought some meat chickens that my wife couldn't stand the thought of butchuring in just eight weeks. The chickens were going to cripple themselves at the food plate if you let them live. Who gets to dicide if that is right or wrong. And bees are bugs compared to chickens.

If you give advice that you think a person will make more money if he would just treat and not let anything die of mites, that is one thing. But to say a guy that is doing hard bond and has a 50 percent crash every few years but is able to build with what is left back to what he had or more and still make money he is happy with. I can't say he is wrong. And if he can't make that work, he will start treating or quit keeping bees. Some can though and are getting by and there are people with differrent views of right and wrong and a finger can be pointed at anyone no matter who it is that they are doing something wrong.

I could point my finger at a pollenator who moves his bees with a whole bunch of others and leaves some behind every time he moves and has more swarms and sells them states away from where the bee is used to and has studies that show a ten percent loss due to stress of moving every time and and and.

I don't think they are going to listen to me if I say they are wrong if thier kids have shoes from it.

I am not saying laws could not be made to make bee keepers all keep bees in the same way. I am saying I hope none are made and I would not trust that the guy who might make such a law would be more right then my view even if one was made. They have whole countries that have sold water rights and so it is against the law now to collect rain water. We can have any law that we are willing to push for but then we get to live with them.

Just so you know, I might lose all my bees this winter, I am not saying it won't happen. I will tell you come spring how it went. I do not feel bad or immoral in waiting to see. You can say I don't care but my wife would disagree when she sees me bulking at cutting the grass cause of all the white clover or tilling a patch for planting bee stuff or sitting in front of the hives 3 times a day guaging how things seem to be going. I don't feel immoral though and if I miss judge, I will be making some adjustments if I want to keep bees. I know a guy that has kept bees for 20 years with out treating and he still has bees and he still sells bees and I have no doubt that he loses some bees at times but not all of them. Its just like making honey, he makes more bees and honey some years compared to others but still makes enough to keep doing what he is doing and not changing to what you are doing. I bought the only bees I have ever bought from him and they lived through one year. How can I point my finger at him and say you are doing it all wrong and have been for 20 years?
Cheers
gww


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

PM-ing with Richard Cryberg a little bit I realize that commercial beeping is such a strange world to me so I believe commercial beekeeping cannot be transferred to natural beekeeping like hobbyists or sideliners do.
And vice versa.

So a vision could be: to tolerate the two paths existing. Just like commercial pollination beekeeping and commercial honey production beekeeping differ but is accepted.

The commercial strategy could be the artificial insemination of the production queens to keep the traits.
The more natural beekeeping could breed openly from the survivors or selected queen`s hives.

So a diversity of genetics could be preserved.

I really hope some time will come when the "mite bombs" are no topic anymore. Most of the "mite bombs" happen to be in the same location of an apiary, killing the neighbor hives. IMO.
But I can speak only of my own experience. Since all beekeepers around me treat long-time with vaporizers and do it prophylactically and my crashes were in winter time, mite bombs are not a problem.

The only "mite bombs" around me, since I live near the black forest, are the commercial production hives used in late fall flow and not being treated, because honey supers must be taken off for treatments.
It´s an illegal management but common practise. These hives rob others or are robbed or crash in fall when the bees still drift. They are just abandoned and new production hives build from queen breeding and splits done beforehand.
So many hobbyists migrate away from those commercial used bees not to have their hives infested.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> PM-ing with Richard Cryberg a little bit I realize that commercial beeping is such a strange world to me so I believe commercial beekeeping cannot be transferred to natural beekeeping like hobbyists or sideliners do.
> And vice versa.


I don´t think that in the end TF beekeeping will be any different from any other beekeeping aspect: What suits and works for a commercial beekeeper, suits and works for a hobby beekeeper too. 

Vice versa it does not work: what suits a hobby beekeeper does not usually suit a professional.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Very interesting opinion, Juhani!


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