# Wax foundation attached to top bars ?



## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

I know I've seen a video on YouTube, but could not find it just now. Lots of people swear by it and I've been tempted to try.

From a woodworking perspective, it would be about the same task, except for the kerf width. The video had someone cutting a strip of wax foundation into 1.5 - 2 inch strips, and then "soldering" the sheet into a kerf using melted beeswax. That doesn't seem easier than gluing a stick to me, intuitively. but the people who use these kinds of bars are passionate that they work great, and I believe them. 

I'm not trying to talk you into Popsicle sticks, but an old trick for cutting a centered kerf and getting it a little wider is to run the bar over the blade twice, reversing the bar for the 2nd run. If the blade is just ever so slightly off-center, you end up with a perfectly centered slot which is about 1.5 blade width's wide. (This is a way to make a centered slot in rails and stiles for a panel door, without driving yourself crazy measuring the saw fence with a micrometer).


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

honestly if it was going to try it I would go with plastic foundation and scrape the comb off to harvest.
The 2 biggest issues people seem to have with KTBH is X-comb and breakage, plastic would help this and It would seem a waist to destroy the wax foundation every time you harvest, A bit of a problem if your on a flow and out of space and need to put the bars right back in 

I have had very good luck with 16" bars (14" in the hive) and 11-12" or so triangular comb guides cut from 5/8" fence pickets air stapled in place. Much less X-comb then when I had 19" bars and wider triangles.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Made bars with plastic foundation but by the time I'd made them my two top bar hives had built up to full size. All the other bars have popsicle sticks.
What aided me in getting straight comb every bar was starting out with a pair of already drawn langstroth frames that were cut down to fit the top bar hive. Used a circular saw. Was so easy that I think every top bar owner should try and buy a few drawn out lang frames from another beekeeper in their local bee club. 
You have to shim the starter lang frames because they'll have gaps at the top.


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## Delta 21 (Mar 4, 2016)

The bars I started with I cut a saw kerf down the length just deep enough to use a finish nailer to attach them, cut wax coated plastic foundation so it would stick out about an inch and just air nailed them with 3 or 4 finish nails. I made a few with the full width of foundation and they came in handy when they cross combed 3 or 4 bars together. I didnt want to wipe out the comb because the queen had already laid all thru it and I was still scared of disturbing the brood nest, so I used one of these to kind of give them a new straight guide to work off of till I could get it all fixed. It worked to get them back on track (at least better than cross comb). I didnt coat anything with new wax and they just didnt like it and would build the comb about 1/4" off the foundation. Pretty funky. The bars with the 1/2" strip worked ok but the triangle bars I made over the winter was a huge improvement. Straighter comb without a doubt.

I'm trying to document my misadventure here.
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?329530-Backyard-Hives&p=1533358#post1533358


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## Dwarvencheif (Aug 11, 2017)

Delta 21 said:


> The bars I started with I cut a saw kerf down the length just deep enough to use a finish nailer to attach them, cut wax coated plastic foundation so it would stick out about an inch and just air nailed them with 3 or 4 finish nails. I made a few with the full width of foundation and they came in handy when they cross combed 3 or 4 bars together. I didnt want to wipe out the comb because the queen had already laid all thru it and I was still scared of disturbing the brood nest, so I used one of these to kind of give them a new straight guide to work off of till I could get it all fixed. It worked to get them back on track (at least better than cross comb). I didnt coat anything with new wax and they just didnt like it and would build the comb about 1/4" off the foundation. Pretty funky. The bars with the 1/2" strip worked ok but the triangle bars I made over the winter was a huge improvement. Straighter comb without a doubt.
> 
> I'm trying to document my misadventure here.
> http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?329530-Backyard-Hives&p=1533358#post1533358


I have the triangle bars from "Bee Thinking" that came with the hive and I'm working out how to make more like them, it can't be harder than what I was making before LOL
When I start making another batch I'll post it to get responses


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## Corto (May 29, 2017)

I have the triangle bars from Beethinking as well, and made a bunch of my own on a bandsaw with the table set at 45 deg. Then I brad nailed the triangles to the slats I made for the bars. Very easy process, took me 1/2 hour to make 20. I wasn't able to necessarily make the triangles all the same thickness because I was sloppy, but it didn't matter because they get nailed to the center regardless.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I've done a wax starter strip and it works fine. But it's not permanent and on a hot day sometimes they fall out. I like a piece of chamfer molding the best (triangle as in Corto's picture) or a strip of wood next best. They are both more permanent than a wax starter strip.


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## Dwarvencheif (Aug 11, 2017)

Corto said:


> I have the triangle bars from Beethinking as well, and made a bunch of my own on a bandsaw with the table set at 45 deg. Then I brad nailed the triangles to the slats I made for the bars. Very easy process, took me 1/2 hour to make 20. I wasn't able to necessarily make the triangles all the same thickness because I was sloppy, but it didn't matter because they get nailed to the center regardless.
> 
> View attachment 35034


My thoughts exactly, glad to hear it works 

All I have at the moment is a Makita hand held circular saw, but I have access to a mill. I was going to talk about making bars en mass just to have a box full of the same bar even after knocking out a few tbh nucs. I just was not planning on that to work so I was looking for other ideas that I could make as consistently as possible.


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## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

Again, speaking more as woodworker than beekeeper here: with only a circular saw it would be tough to do anything fancy. You would be best off buying "2 x 1" stock from the big box and also a strip of triangular molding from the back of the lumber department. Just cut them both up appropriately and nail them together. Your "2 by" stock will be about an eighth inch too wide, but you could fix that with a hand plane or even sandpaper.

Or, use this project as an excuse to buy a table saw. I'm able to cut pretty nice one-piece triangular topbars (looking very much like Corto's picture) using the saw, with nearly no special equipment and only a minimal chance of dismemberment. :lookout: 15 top bars from a $5 2x4.


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## Dwarvencheif (Aug 11, 2017)

AvatarDad said:


> Again, speaking more as woodworker than beekeeper here: with only a circular saw it would be tough to do anything fancy. You would be best off buying "2 x 1" stock from the big box and also a strip of triangular molding from the back of the lumber department. Just cut them both up appropriately and nail them together. Your "2 by" stock will be about an eighth inch too wide, but you could fix that with a hand plane or even sandpaper.
> 
> Or, use this project as an excuse to buy a table saw. I'm able to cut pretty nice one-piece triangular topbars (looking very much like Corto's picture) using the saw, with nearly no special equipment and only a minimal chance of dismemberment. :lookout: 15 top bars from a $5 2x4.


This was my original plan but for some reason triangle stock is vacant from all the places I have looked for wood in... weird...


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## Corto (May 29, 2017)

I had a whole setup, table saw, jointer, miter saw, etc for years. The noise, dust and ferocity of the table saw, and just the plain pain in the ass of it (for me: pull a car out, set it up, dust all over, etc) made me stop woodworking. Ok, having kids probably added to that as well...

But, 6 months ago I got a bandsaw. Never owned one before. It is like zen woodworking to me. Sure, there are some cuts that just aren't possible, but with a bandsaw and a converted leaf blower into a dust collector, I am doing more woodworking than I have in 15 years. 

I have made boxes, little quick jigs, expansion strips to place between honey bars, and lots of other things like the nuc box here.


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## Thomas Frazier (Aug 25, 2015)

Corto - Very Nice! I currently use a table saw, with a bandsaw in mothballs. You've given me food for thought!

Cheers, 
TF


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## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

Those are some fantastic bandsaw boxes. Very nice!


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## Corto (May 29, 2017)

Thank you!


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## GardenGekko (Sep 24, 2017)

Has anyone used a router with a cove molding bit or a chamfer bit to form the profile of the guide?

I'm thinking about using 2xs instead of 1xs, cut to length, router the ends down square to one inch with a rabbet bit, rip the lumber to the proper bar width, router the edge profile on each side. 

Profile would look something like this:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I have not done it, but I think it would work fine. I'm not so sure that cutting a straight line isn't easier, though.


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## Corto (May 29, 2017)

How about getting some 1x2 boards and rabbeting two sides to leave a thin piece for the comb to hang from as shown? Maybe a bit less work.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

It would work, but the bevel makes a stronger connection where the comb is less likely to break when stressed.


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## whiskers (Aug 28, 2011)

A piece of quarter round nailed to the top bar upside down probably approximates what is being described here well enough that the bees won't care. A few minutes with a hand plane would remove most of the round side for the more particular folks.

If you get an old style, not carbide, saw blade, and you can sharpen it yourself, then you can adjust the width of the slot it cuts by changing the amount of set in the teeth.
Bill


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Go to the lumber yard and ask for "chamfer molding". That's what you need. It's cheaper than quarter round. It's not so polished and the wood is not as perfect, but it works fine for a comb guide. If they don't have it in stock, have them order it. Or find an actual "lumber yard" instead of the Lowes/Menards/Home Depot chains. You might even get an Ace Hardware to order it for you. I'm pretty sure my local one would, but it is exceptional. They stock things like screen molding there but I don't find any moldings on Ace Hardware's web site...


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## EbrgNBC (Oct 11, 2017)

My boyfriend calls "chamfer molding" a "cant strip". When I just now Googled those terms, the images seem very similar. We bought our cants at Marson & Marson lumber nearby. They work GREAT, no combs have broken off (although I'm new to this, could be beginner's luck  Applied to the top bar with a strip of wood glue and then just to be safe, a couple brad nails


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## eltalia (Jun 12, 2017)

... a "can do and done"example (x2) of 20mm of wax foundation glued into a "thin technology" cut groove using a 125mm angle grinder.
Attached - hopefully - are;
#1 is maybe just 8 days after install.
#2 is maybe around 14 days after install.

I have made a mob since, all performing in much the same manner
when placed in the colony where bees are inclined to draw comb. 
First time ever using foundationless throughout, I went with this method after considering what I could do with what I had, and applying very little effort. The strips are packed with tissue paper in a few places along the bond and SUPAglue[tm] applied.
For frames #1/#8/#9 for the broodchamber I added two shishkabab (sp?) skewers maybe 100mm from each extent. I found I had to trim those to just 80mm long as they tended to 'walk' as the comb formed around them - putting the comb out of vertical alignment.

Bill


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## Sovek (Apr 27, 2014)

AvatarDad said:


> Again, speaking more as woodworker than beekeeper here: with only a circular saw it would be tough to do anything fancy. You would be best off buying "2 x 1" stock from the big box and also a strip of triangular molding from the back of the lumber department. Just cut them both up appropriately and nail them together. Your "2 by" stock will be about an eighth inch too wide, but you could fix that with a hand plane or even sandpaper.
> 
> Or, use this project as an excuse to buy a table saw. I'm able to cut pretty nice one-piece triangular topbars (looking very much like Corto's picture) using the saw, with nearly no special equipment and only a minimal chance of dismemberment. :lookout: 15 top bars from a $5 2x4.



This is what I did when I ran a TBH. It worked well but that was only for the one year.


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