# Jay Smith variation



## Beestrong (May 22, 2014)

Hi everone!

I'm just wondering how viable the Jay Smith's queen rearing method could be, graftless, but using eggs instead of young larvae.

I want to rear 30 queens by method described below:

In a 5-frames nuc put: 1 frame honey/polen, 1 of capped brood (with their nurse bees), 1 feeder frame, and shake down 3 frames of nurse bees.
Let alone 24 hours.
Pull off the feeder frame and put in the frame with the eggs, as Jay Smith says (not larvae, just eggs).
Let alone 15 days to see mature cells, harvest them and insert into prepared nucs.


How viable this could be?

Thanks in advance!

Beestrong


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Acceptance is better with just hatched larvae. For some reason acceptance can be a lot lower with eggs.

Other than that your method will work but a few things you have not explained. Will you cut the cells like Jay Smith or put in a whole frame. And will you use a starter hive only and leave the cells in that till finished. If so will it be near the other hives and will bees be free to come and go?

Jay Smith refined his method over many years. Changing it will probably get worse results.


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## Beestrong (May 22, 2014)

Hi Oldtimer, thanks for your reply!

I will cut the cells like Jay Smith, and tie downward in the top bar of the frame.
Then I'll punch 2 of each 3 cells and then, insert into a queenless nuc full of nurse bees.
I want to go with eggs because Jay Smith said that eggs selected by bees to be queens are fed with more milk than those not selected to be queens, despite both are fed with milk (I think that this is a big point to keep in mind).

Finally I will use the same nuc to finish the queen cells adding frames of capped brood if the density of nurse bees decreases.

Is there any problem with this method?
The acceptance ratio perhaps?

Thanks!


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

Beestrong; The eggs you select may not be the same eggs the bees would have selected. When a colony is made queenless and given a frame of eggs you may only see 5 or 6 that they have lavishly fed to begin the queen making process, and those are usually scattered over the comb.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>...but using eggs instead of young larvae.

They just remove the eggs. It seems like a good idea, and Alley even acts like that's what he's doing, but I have never seen it succeed whether in the Smith, Hopkins, Jenter or Nicot methods. Maybe if perfectly timed so that the eggs hatch a few minutes after you do it... but I never had luck with it.


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## Little-John (Jun 18, 2015)

The problem with eggs is that they are coated with the queen's pheromone as they leave her oviduct. Because of this, bees can recognise eggs that belong to their own queen, and those that don't. Those that don't smell right are usually removed. So - you may have better luck with your plan if you use bees and eggs from the same hive.

Newly hatched larva are preferred because they emit brood pheromone ('feed-me' pheromone) which is not related to the original queen and thus they stand a much better chance of being accepted by unrelated bees.

LJ


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Beestrong said:


> .... eggs selected by bees to be queens are fed with more milk than those not selected to be queens, despite both are fed with milk (I think that this is a big point to keep in mind).
> 
> Finally I will use the same nuc to finish the queen cells adding frames of capped brood if the density of nurse bees decreases.
> 
> ...


This is my field. Yes, the bees will removed the eggs if you put them in too early. This is how I go around this issue. 
So once the bees had selected the larva to be the queen then you put them in a queen less and hopeless hive that is full of
RJ producing nurse bees. They have no way of not accepting these cells because the cells are already built by the other bees. What they will do
instead is to add more RJ (royal jelly) into the existing built cells. Sometimes the RJ is too full for the little larva. 
Also, if you wait until the 4th days to put the eggs inside the nuc hive then the acceptance rate might be higher because on the 4th days some of 
the larvae had already hatched. Then the bees are free to choose their cells to build. It would be better if you can use the natural foundation because
that will make cutting the cells out easier vs a plastic foundation frame. If the RJ got exposed on the cell then the bees will tear it down. So be more careful here when
you remove the cells. 
I have stumble onto something beautiful that I will repeat the next queen season.

Extra RJ big cell: Result in extra big well fed queens


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

FWIW, I made 3 Pritchard cages to hold breeder queens on specific frames so that I don't have to search all over for good grafting frames.

These boxes fit into the hive body like a frame, but 4 1/2 inches wide. The ends and bottom are wood, and the sides are queen excluder material. There is a lid made of sheet metal and thin plywood to cover it tightly. on the outside of the ends, I made sheet metal hangers that fit the rabbet ledges where the frames go.

Inside these cages, I put 3 frames. They are slightly shorter than ordinary frames because the cage is hanging in the box, and has it's own rabbet ledges. 

One type is a "Miller frame" with the zig-zag bottom, to make use of Dr. Charles C. Miller's queen rearing method. 

One is like Oldtimer's top bar with worker foundation for using a modified version of Jay Smith's method. 

I also made up an original Jay Smith frame, but with black plastic foundation to use for grafting using Doolittle's method. I can easily see the larvae against the black background.

I put one type of frame at a time in the Pritchard box, so I know what method I'll be trying. I open the breeder queen's hive, find the queen, and cage her temporarily. I remove 3 frames from the brood nest, and drop in the Pritchard box, with the top off. I then release the breeder queen into the Pritchard box, and close the lid. 

4 days later, it's Grafting day or Cut-Cell day. 

In the case of Miller's Method, they stay in the P-Box for 12 1/2 days until the swarm cells are capped and ready to cut and plant into the mating nuc's.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Sounds like a real good idea Kilocharlie, got a pic of it?

It's surprising how even commercial beekeepers with many years under their belts will complain to me sometimes about losing cells to a virgin that hatched early ( ie was too old when grafted), your method can ensure this does not happen.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I'll make an effort to borrow a camera and post a few photos soon, but a good description by a carpenter may help a curiosity-driven beek' with Tinkerer's Syndrome.

If using a deep Langstroth box (19.875" x 16.25" x 9.6875") for the breeder queen's brood nest, the Pritchard Box has 2 ends of 3/4" thick wood 4.5" wide x 8.5" deep with a 5/8" deep rabbet 3/8"wide for the frames to hang. 

One bottom plank is 18 long x 4.5" wide x 3/4" thick. You can make these a rabbet joint if you wish, but the overall dimension of the box is 18" long x 4.5" wide x 8.5"deep.

You must cut a piece of queen excluder for the sides - I use a radaic wheel on an air-powered cut-off tool, though a diagonal cutting could suffice - but you need to be able to control the spacing of the wire rods, as if they are spaced more than .1875 apart, a queen may get through. The queen excluder sides run the full 8.5" depth x 18" long and are fastened with screws small enough to not distort the queen excluder rod spacing. I'll be honest - I pry the binding open and pinch it back shut over the cut ends of the rods, and use a feeler guage to set the spacing of the queen excluder rods. I advise adding JB Weld epoxy (or equivalent) to make the spacing of the cut ends of the rods correct and permament.

The Pritchard Box is hung on the Langstroth's rabbets by 2 small bent pieces of sheet metal. These "L" angles are formed of strong sheet metal - I use 16 guage steel. They are 1 inch long on the face that attaches to the box, and 5/32" wide on the face that acts as the hanger. I drill and counter sink these for flathead screws to fit flush.

So, basicallly, the Pritcahrd Box is a closed wooden box with queen excluder sides the length of an ordinary frame, but is 3 frames and 4 beespaces wide.

*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***

A top is made of 1/8" plywood with a sheet metal rim formed to fit tight around the perimeter. This is so the Breeder queen can't get out - she has to lay her eggs inside the Pritchard Box.

The frames that fit in the Pritchard Box have a top bar that is 3/4" thick x 1.125" wide x 17 5/8" long. The side bars are 1/2" thick x 1.375" wide x 7" deep, notched for top bar and bottom bar, and spaced so that the outsides are 16.875" apart. The bottom bars are 1/2" deep x 3/4" wide x 16.875 long, notched to fit the side bars. Basically, just make sure you frames fit your Pritchard Box  

To get the comb drawn on these special frames, I make "Pink Sticks". These are regular-length (19" long x 3/4" thick x 1.125" wide) top bars. The entire special Pritchard frames are screwed onto the bottom of them with 2 drywall screws, so now you just hang them in the hive while they are screwed "piggyback" to the Pink Sticks. Remove the Pink Sticks, and the drawn frames should fit in the Pritchard Box.

It is a great convenience to know exactly where the breeder queen was isolated 80 hours prior to grafting or making Cut Cell or Punch Cell queens, or Mel Disselkoen's method, or Hopkins, etc - for that matter. Only Miller's method is just left in the box until cut & plant day (= 12 1/2 days after breeder queen isolation). The box is also portable, so you can place it in a nuc' right outside the grafting tent while grafting, using Smith's method, etc., for easy access while working, should you need another frame of eggs.

I made a second (and a 3rd) P-Box after a queen refused to lay in the frame provided her, so I always isolate at least 2 queens (usually 3) 4 days before grafting or making Cut Cell (Jay Smith) queen frames.

Come to think of it, a video may be better than photos.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I think some pics and a clear description should be sufficient.
vid takes too long to study and might miss some important points.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I've found that the failed mating nucs with 4 or 5 frames of bees make better queen cells than a new 5 frame finisher/starter with lots of bees and given grafted or cut cells. 

So my newly made nucs get queen cells, and my failed nucs get a frame with eggs/young larvae from a hive I want queen cells from. I am foundationless, so can usually find a half made white comb with eggs and larvae. 

My theory (and I don't have to stick withit) with the grand total of 1.5 years of experience, is that it not only take lots of nurse bees, but also organization which leads to efficient effort on the part of the hive. Also a queenless nuc since they have nothing better to do, has stores of pollen and nectar by the time a frame with eggs has been introduced. I'm not sure if I am after super large queen cells. Mimicking the size and quality of swarm cells seems a better goal as natural selection has optimized this over much time. Saying this, the extra large queen cells posted are pretty cool.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

lharder said:


> .... I'm not sure if I am after super large queen cells.... Saying this, the extra large queen cells posted are pretty cool.



Time and again as taught by others here and the queen
bee laying experiment that the well fed queens will lay better
and is less likely to be superceded. So my aim is for the well fed
queens when I make them. The not so well fed queens got replaced
in a hurry because they do not live up to the bee's standards, and not
mine.
So whether or not they make the small cells or the large cells make sure
that there are extra RJ remaining at the bottom of the cell after the
queen hatched. Of course, the bigger the queen the better of a chance
that you can find her on a hive inspection. The smaller queens almost
look like the size of a worker bee so there is a bigger chance of missing
her unless you marked her first. Then you have the small and shorter abdomen
queens. Those cannot reach the longer worker cells on some natural comb.
The bigger queens with longer abdomen can reach these cells and some more.
I maybe wrong but sometimes I think that a bigger abdomen queen can store more
sperms than the smaller abdomen queen. So whatever the bees make it is up to you
to choose the better queens. I monitor my queen rearing process from beginning until the end to make sure I 
got the well fed queens be it the small or big ones.
Do you know how to tell the difference between a well fed queen versus a marginal fed queen?


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

No, not really. At this point I am happy to have a queen. Really I'm kinda happy with the queens so far and they were all produced on a flow, except for the last batch. The last queens are just to get a nuc through winter and we'll see how they do. They have not reached full size yet. I have a few commercial queens that I can compare with homegrown next year when they are in full hives. Some scrutiny is in order.

I am interested in why the bees make the decisions that they do. A queenless nuc, presented with a frame with some eggs has to make some decisions about what larvae to use, and how many. I would guess they have an inner calculus that they use to produce good queens given their resources. The only thing stopping them from making the best queen would be food coming in, and comb so hard, that a proper queen cell can't be made. They should make the right amount of queens and give them optimal care. I also believe in diminishing returns. We can get fixated on one aspect or another and miss the big picture. Push too hard in one direction then there is a cost somewhere else especially with biological systems. That's just my philosophical approach and I will see how it plays out when I play with bees

Still, really big queen cells are kinda cool.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

lharder said:


> ...I am interested in why the bees make the decisions that they do. A queenless nuc, presented with a frame with some eggs has to make some decisions about what larvae to use, and how many. I would guess they have an inner calculus that they use to produce good queens given their resources. The only thing stopping them from making the best queen would be food coming in, and comb so hard, that a proper queen cell can't be made. They should make the right amount of queens and give them optimal care...


Likewise! You'll probably find Carniolan bees fascinating, with their ability to adapt their population to local conditions quickly. They seem to know what they can get away with and play conservative, but really populate up hard when conditions are good.

I'm considering about getting a few colonies of Carni's to watch and consider what they do as "advice" from the bees, applying some of this to my Italian / AMM and Italian / AHB crosses.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

lharder said:


> I am interested in why the bees make the decisions that they do.



Their decisions, we as humans will never understand. They do it according to the many environmental factors affecting their
hives at any given seasons. For example, right now we don't have a strong early Fall flow going on just after the summer dearth. Some foragers are bringing some
yellow pollen, I'll bet the canola, from somewhere out there. So to trick them to rear the Fall/winter broods I gave them patty subs and syrup to help them along.
As soon as the Fall flow begins there will be enough foragers to collect for the coming winter. What I'm trying to get to is that there is a disabled young 
queen on her left leg. This does not hinder her laying ability just a bit slow. Wish I could give her a fake plastic leg to help her along. So the bees are trying to supersede her by making queen cells at this time of the year. At this late, all the carnis drones had already been booted out of their hives. So why do they decided to make the queen cells now?
This is what I do not understand and never will. Why can't they just wait until the Spring again to get rid of her? 
You see by human logic, it is already too late in the season to make a new queen. What if the virgin got lost on her mating flight? By the time the virgin is ready to mate there isn't enough drones out there. And since the Fall is approaching in October they don't have the time to get a few rounds of the winter bees here. This is my human minds at work trying to think things through. As for the bees,
they think that right now there is a flow going on. We have patty, natural pollen and syrup. So let's get rid of this disabled queen. Not knowing what's going to
happen to them with the onset of the winter months, they just make their decisions based on what is at the moment. They think it is right to make a few queen
cells but I think it is otherwise. Yes, in another month or so our Loquat trees are going to bloom here. So they will have a chance to put in whatever they can collect
out there. Bees are going to be bees no matter how much we try to understand them or their decision making process, which I think we will never know fully.
So small cell or big cell, it does not matter. What matter most is that we get a healthy well fed laying queen.
Here are the carnis/Italians workers from a mixed queen mated almost 2 months ago.
Every frame is covered with eggs/larvae now. She should be a perfect candidate to graft for some carnis daughters but I have better selections than this one.
Once you started rearing some queens your bee understand will be greatly expanded.

Carnis/Italians at 30/70 ratio:


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