# How long after OAV untill you can get an accurate sugar roll count?



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

How were you doing OAV?


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

1/2 teaspoon in my homemade glow plug style vaporizer stuck in the entrance. Left the hive closed up after for 10 minutes.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I have learned (the hard way!) to always treat all the colonies in the same apiary as soon as a single one needs treatment. (Occasional exceptions made for newly hatched queens, not yet mated, etc. These will just be started a bit later and continue on beyond the end of the series for the other hives.)

If you immediately started treating four weeks ago with a three-series program, you were done in 10 days. That leaves three weeks for the mtes that weren't affected (because they were under the cappings) to ramp back up again - a whole brood cycle.

Next time I would figure out how to monitor the kill with a sticky board between treatments. If you're not seeing good response, it might be time to try something else. If you didn't see any mites falling into the wate after the first treatment, it wasn't effective, for some reason.

OAV is not the best choice for a hive full of brood as yours must surely have been a month ago. Formic acid (MAQS) gets the mites below the cappings and can be used with honey supers on. HOwever, it has a more mixed safety profile and important temp restrictions. I have used it successfully at both the one and two strip dosing levels without loss of queen or brood. _But I am fanatical about choosing temps below 80F for the first four to five days._

Enj.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

I would guess that there is something wrong with your OAV method. It would be normal to see a high count on the sticky board after treatment, but a high count on the bees would be abnormal. How many shakes did you do on each group of bees on the first test? It takes 3 or more shakings to get all of the mites. 

A 7 day interval between treatments would be more effective than the 5 day interval.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Tell us about your treatment. You said you used a homemade vap. Did you see vapors coming from the hive? Did all the OA vaporize? How much did you use? Did you leave it closed up for 10 minutes after treating? Greatest dead mite count occurs on the 2nd day. I've found that mites "shaken" are those that are dying or dead as the mites cling very well to the bees. 

You let the other hives w/o treatment? I've found, you really need to do all the hives in an apiary when treating with any method as bees will migrate. 

This time of year the mites are out-breeding the bees and you have to monitor and treat ...........


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## e-spice (Sep 21, 2013)

Something doesn't sound right here. Personally, I would bite the bullet and order a high quality vaporizer ($100 - $150) and try treating them again. It should easily last you several seasons if you take good care of it. It doesn't sound like your homemade device is working right.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

snl said:


> You let the other hives w/o treatment? I've found, you really need to do all the hives in an apiary when treating with any method as bees will migrate.
> ..


+1 on the treat all the hives. Go with sticky boards, not sugar rolls. the reason is you can see the effectiveness of the OAV treatment. 
Say you get a 50 mite drop count in 24 hours, treat OAV and see the drop count in the thousands for several days, you know you killed a ton of mites, if not, you're doing something wrong.
Plan on treating 3 times in a row 5 to 7 days apart.


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

Thanks for the comments! 

Excuse: I didn't want to treat hives with only 1,2,and 3 mites. I don't take meds unless I need them and I feel the bees deserve the same. I for sure planned to keep checking. I debated even treating the one that I did treat, figuring i'd probably have to catch them all next time. I do see your point though about doing them all at the same time. Besides, it's just more efficient. 

So, my vaporizer looks just like the commercial ones and it boils the OA into a cloud of vapor. I ran it quite a few times out of hive and saw it work. Heat is heat, vapor is vapor, right? I'm interested to hear what the difference could be other than 30 seconds or so of speed.

I used 1/2 teaspoon per double deep. I left it closed for 10 min. When I removed the vaporizer, the bowl was clean and the vap. coming out of the hive was noticeable.

For the sugar shakes, I let the bees stew for a few minutes and shook the living daylights out of them every time I tested them. In all of the sugar shakes prior to treatment, I could see all the mites moving in the water. With this treated hive, not a single one was swimming. They looked dead to me.

Internet recommendations for treatment schedule are all over the place, [email protected], [email protected], 3 or 4 @7 etc, etc. I would love to know what treatment schedule really is best. Does someone have a study that they can point me to?

Enj.- I do keep notes, I just don't bother to look at them I treated on 7/11, 7/16, and 7/22. I did this shake on 7/29. 
I think I understand that the treatment kills mites for a couple weeks..

SNL- you say >I've found that mites "shaken" are those that are dying or dead as the mites cling very well to the bees.< Thanks, I think this is what I wanted to hear. All the mites that came off appeared to be dead.

..Lot's of recco's for sticky boards. Can I do that with my solid bottom boards? I discovered I hate doing the sugar rolls, because even though I have spotted queens many times, I really fear torturing her by accident!

Thanks again for the help!


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

larryh said:


> Internet recommendations for treatment schedule are all over the place, [email protected], [email protected], 3 or 4 @7 etc, etc. I would love to know what treatment schedule really is best. Does someone have a study that they can point me to?


No study that I can find, none really needed. If you look at the honey bee life cycle and when the mite is phoretic, you'll find your answer. A mite will enter enter the cell right before it is capped. The longest a cell remains capped (which is the drone) is +- 18 days. When the mite emerges with the bee it will remain phoretic 7-14 days. So if you treat 3 times once every 5-7 days, you will vap most of the mites in their phoretic stage as either they were phoretic when you started or phoretic when they emerged with the bee and within the treatment period. Three 7 day treatments is best, but three 5 day treatments will work.


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

Thank you for explanation.


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## Norcalkyle (Apr 23, 2015)

snl said:


> No study that I can find, but if you look at the honey bee life cycle and when the mite is phoretic, you'll find your answer. A mite will enter enter right before it is capped. The longest a cell remains capped (which is the drone) is +- 18 days. When the mite emerges with the bee it will remain phoretic 7-14 days. So if you treat 3 times once every 5-7 days, you will vap most of the mites in their phoretic stage as either they were phoretic when you started or phoretic when they emerged with the bee and within the treatment period. Three 7 day treatments is best, but three 5 day treatments will work.


I am going to do my 3rd treatment on Sunday. My question is if I start on a Saturday and treat for 3 consecutive Saturday's, it is I only a 15 day window. Is this sufficient? 

P.s. buy a vaporizer from Snl's link... they are worth the money


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Norcalkyle said:


> I am going to do my 3rd treatment on Sunday. My question is if I start on a Saturday and treat for 3 consecutive Saturday's, it is I only a 15 day window. Is this sufficient?
> 
> P.s. buy a vaporizer from Snl's link... they are worth the money


Thanks.....Every Saturday, is every 7 days, it's a 21 day window and is sufficient


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## Norcalkyle (Apr 23, 2015)

snl said:


> Thanks.....Every Saturday, is every 7 days, it's a 21 day window and is sufficient


You would have to do it 4 times to cover the 21 days. If your first treatment is on day 1, second is on day 7, third is on day 14. Do you see a need for a fourth on day 21?


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Norcalkyle said:


> Do you see a need for a fourth on day 21?


I don't as the OA lingers and continues to kill for several days after treatment. Then the bees dispose of the reformed crystals outside the hive.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

+1 on SNL 3 treatments. If you do mite drop counts following each treatment, you will see the numbers falling dramatically. I've done as many as 5 when it's cool and nothing else to do with the hives in Nov.
But there are very few mites on the boards after the 3rd treatment.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

snl said:


> Thanks.....Every Saturday, is every 7 days, it's a 21 day window and is sufficient


Saturday 1 next Saturday 8,next Saturday 15.


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## Norcalkyle (Apr 23, 2015)

snl said:


> I don't as the OA lingers and continues to kill for several days after treatment. Then the bees dispose of the reformed crystals outside the hive.


Thanks for the info, couldn't be happier with the vaporizer. The mite drop count after the 1st treatment made me realize how unreliable the sugar rolls can be.


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

dsegrest said:


> Saturday 1 next Saturday 8,next Saturday 15.


Right, but as I understand it each treatment lasts for a week+, because the vapor collects on everything and crystallizes and stays in the hive. I could have that wrong.. wouldn't be the first time.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

larryh said:


> Right, but as I understand it each treatment lasts for a week+, because the vapor collects on everything and crystallizes and stays in the hive. .


Depends if the bees are active (flying). If they are, the reformed crystals are carried outside the hive within 3-4 days.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Regarding reformed crystals... should you be able to see crystals in the hive when you're done with an OAV?


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## yotebuster1200 (Jul 28, 2013)

I am going to bump this thread because I am also curious to know the answer to jwcarlson's question.


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