# vitamins and minerals in winter feed?



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I do, I can't tell you if it helps or not as its my first winter using I, but I can tell you that I don't think they are eating honey they went straight for it and we are halfway through winter and I don't think the hives have lost hardly any weight


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## MTN-Bees (Jan 27, 2014)

I add it to sugar bricks, pollen patties and some syrup.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

I'm trying it for the first time this winter... half my nucs have it in their sugar blocks. So far the bees look good but can't attribute it to the vitamins.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

joe, how does your vitamin and mineral formulation compare and contrast to the large animal products?


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

squarepeg,

Electrolyte powders vary somewhat, but most contain, sodium, potassium, chloride, and generally some sugar too. They are generally water soluble.

The vitamin and mineral supplement we have for pollen patties is not a water soluble product. It contains about 25 of the necessary vitamins (water and fat soluble) and minerals.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

understood joe, many thanks. i'll be giving your bag 'o bee food mix a try on my colonies to see if i can help them get them up to splitting strength by late march or so. they will be starting their first rounds of brood soon as we should be getting the first tree pollens trickling in over the next few weeks or so, weather permitting.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Added vitamin & electrolytes to last blocks. Amount to add is a wild ***** guess. 

Got me thinking that maybe should add some to fall syrup, as well. 

However, there is only small amounts of vitamins and minerals in honey


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I use the veterinary large animal electrolyte mix to make my Lauri's Bricks. It's just a tiny amount, though, as described in her recipe. (My bees absolutely go nuts for those bricks!) The brand I use is largely salts, with not very much sugar. Lauri mentions probiotics, I think, but I've never run across anything similar and hesitate to add human or even vet probiotics. I would really like to have such a product specifically for bees, though. (Hint, hint!)

I also bought some Global patties late last winter from Betterbee, along with some of your Beefood. It turns out that the Global patties were dusted with the Beefood. I think I still have the bag of Beefood in my freezer. My latest box of Global patty doesn't seem to have the same dusting, so I will DIY that part when it comes time to add protein in March. I may also try mixing up some Beefood, all by itself.

I am very interested in providing optimal nutrition for my bees. Many beeks seem to feed mostly to make winter weight in the hives after harvest. I don't take enough honey to need to do that. My interest is more in higher than just baseline/maintenance supplementation. I want my bees to have the most nutritious diet possible, even when Mother Nature doesn't oblige. 

Enj.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

I wonder if someone could provide links to studies showing the benefits of vitamin & mineral supplements fed to bees. I've not tried them yet and would be interested in looking at the science behind it.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Thanks for all of the input so far!

Mike,

There are not a lot of detailed studies in honey bees when is comes to vitamin and mineral requirements. I am not aware of anyone that is specifically a "honey bee nutritionist" as you might find for any of the other animal species. Randy Oliver has done a nice job summarizing basic diets, but again there is not much detail in to the micro-nutrients.

The work we have done is grounded by work done for other animal species and using composite pollen samples to basically work backwards. By analyzing composite pollen samples and filling in the known holes, we can start to ensure that artificial nutrition comes closer to mimicking natural pollen. 

Most organisms have slightly different, and in some cases very different nutritional needs. When using mixes designed for other animals it can be a challenge getting the dosage correct. When we formulate supplements, they are calculated on dry matter basis and normally try to come in just a little low. This way the bees get the nutrients they need with each meal.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Thank you. Randy's work seems to be mainly focused on "pollen" substitutes and the importance of a complete formula to meet the bees nutritional needs. It would be interesting to see how much of an impact vitamins and minerals actually have when added to the sugar blocks.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> I wonder if someone could provide links to studies showing the benefits of vitamin & mineral supplements fed to bees. I've not tried them yet and would be interested in looking at the science behind it.


+1

I don't know anything about Winter bee nutrition. However, once bees become adults, they do not grow, or repair tissue, or feed brood. Consequently, all adult worker bees need to survive is carbohydrates. Further, bees have evolved to survive a Winter solely on the honey they collect. As long as they bees are not surrounded by a monoculture, it seems they should only need honey with no human provided additives to Winter on.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

Shinbone,

There are 6 modules in this section of Randy's website that would be helpful to read through. They provide some great details on pollen and it's role in bee development and health. 
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/bee-nutrition/

Rather than pollen substitute, I'm just wondering how much of an impact vitamins and minerals really have as an additive to syrup or sugar blocks. Guess it can't hurt, but I'm not sure how necessary it is.


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## Sr. Tanya (Feb 9, 2007)

I was wondering if the 8 oz. package I bought locally is OK to use. It's called Vitamins & Electrolytes from Durvet? It's water soluble, premix and it says it's for poultry, swine, ruminants and horses. Can this be used for the bees too??


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Rather than pollen substitute, I'm just wondering how much of an impact vitamins and minerals really have as an additive to syrup or sugar blocks. Guess it can't hurt, but I'm not sure how necessary it is.


Kind of the same line of thinking on my part...but...

Let's look at the pollen and nectar "duo", both absolute essential components for the bee colony. If one considers pollen, by looking at its quality, quantity and availability and in possible circumstances the insults to the dynamic that takes place from the plant pollen---->bee corbicular pollen----> stored fresh pollen---->pollen stored as bee bread, then things start looking different when one asks about vitamins and minerals. 
Pollen is an excellent source of these vitamins one considers, when talking about bees.

The four B complex vitamins (pantothenic acid, thiamine, riboflavin, and pyridoxin), plus vitamin A and K have been linked to development of the hypopharyngeal glands and brood rearing. There is some evidence that bees may be able to synthesise some vitamins such as pantothenic acid (B5 vitamin), although this may be due to the micro organisms in the honey bee gut.

So to wrap up my line of thinking, if the whole pollen "axis" is messed up, lacking in some respects, then, a vitamin supplementation in syrup and/or sugar block/patty, not only might not hurt, it might actually help.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

I think there is a lot we do not know... From other other species we do know that artificial diets improve greatly when vitamins, minerals and other nutrients are properly balanced. For example I was recently reviewing a nutrition article and the author needed to establish a baseline growth rate and one of the nutrients under investigation was lysine. The test scale ranged from 0.6% to 1.0% lysine. The 0.6% resulted in a 3.3 feed/gain ratio, while the 1.0% diet resulted in a 1.9 feed/gain ratio. This is only 4/10 of 1% difference which resulted in one diet being almost 2X as efficient at adding weight to the animal. 

The requirements can be very sensitive, but for bees it is very challenging to get precision since they are free flying.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

For large animals, we have to be very careful when supplementing minerals. Overdoses will harm the animals health. Do we know if the same can happen with a bee?


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Ian, absolutely, which is why we shoot for a little under what we think is close to ideal. Some nutrients are more critical than others when it comes to toxicity concerns.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

JSL said:


> Ian, absolutely, which is why we shoot for a little under what we think is close to ideal. Some nutrients are more critical than others when it comes to toxicity concerns.


Joe,
How do we (you) know that? (too much is bad for bees)


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

snl,

Bees are like other animals. Some nutrients at higher levels are easily metabolized and excreted and others are not. If you look at the back of a daily vitamin bottle, they generally list % daily requirement. Some nutrients may be listed at levels several hundred times your daily requirement, some water soluble vitamins fit this bill. The excess is easily excreted in urine. Other nutrients, such as selenium, while essential, can become toxic very quickly. Selenium is often listed in ppm (parts per million) or ppb (parts per billion, not piss poor beekeeping ) Sorry, couldn't resist...


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

JSL said:


> Selenium is often listed in ppm (parts per million) or ppb (parts per billion, not piss poor beekeeping ) Sorry, couldn't resist...


Good one! But what was I thinking was would the bees eat what they didn't need.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Analogizing mammal nutrition to honey bee nutrition for Winter feeding of honey is too big of a leap to make any sense. In other words, a cow benefiting from electrolytes in its feed provides no indication that honey bees would also benefit from electrolytes being added to their honey during the winter (unless, possibly, the honey came from a monoculture area).

I know Dr. Latshaw knows a million times more about bee nutrition than I do, but, still, I have never seen anything suggesting that bees need electrolytes in their winter honey.




.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Mike Gillmore said:


> Shinbone,
> 
> There are 6 modules in this section of Randy's website that would be helpful to read through. They provide some great details on pollen and it's role in bee development and health.
> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/bee-nutrition/
> ...


Mike - Thanks for the link. Randy Olver produces good stuff. I should have been more clear, though - By "Winter bee nutrition" I was referring to honey fed during the Winter, not pollen.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Shinbone,

I agree with you, I am not certain that bees need electrolytes in their winter feed. I would be inclined to match what they normally consumed, but I am not sure how much pollen is consumed with honey during the winter.

Snl,

You are touching on a theory known as nutritional wisdom, where animals consume only what they need. It is a bit of a stretch, and hard to remove nutrients from a diet.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

But Joe that's just it. Most animals don't have the reactions to prevent over consumption of some minerals. Why would bee's be any different. After all they typically consume trace amounts naturaly


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## Ret Sgt. Robert Yates (Dec 5, 2014)

Honey Bees are no different than any other living animal on the earth well before I found the Beesource Forum I began to do research on keeping Honey Bees and I have posted three of those resources that regularly visit to conduct my reading as well as my research of the beloved Honey Bee.

Long story Short Here is what I found on the subject and it has a very surprising list of references at the bottom of the one conducted in mid 1970's as you will see . Here is the first PDF ....

http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/CAT87209984/PDF

The second one is also a PDF and was done in 2000 and also has a impressive list of references at the bottom as well and the Vitamins and Minerals Question is very much addressed in this PDF....

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/as...honey-bee-nutrition-supplementary-feeding.pdf

I hope every one enjoys both of them and they answer some or all the questions you may have had they did for me as a New Beekeeper and I have Yet to even to acquire a Bee yet ,Although I did get to have my Very First Day in a Hive Today it was Awesome Thank You All for the Information you are sharing with me .

Ret, Sgt. Robert D. Yates

The Hills Of Tennessee


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

JSL said:


> So my question is, how many beekeepers currently use a large animal electrolyte mix in their sugar blocks?


My experience and knowledge are limited but my answer.
No, I avoid adding or add very limited amounts of "trace elements" to any supplemental feed.

I can find very little solid reliable information on honeybee diet requirements. It's all speculation and without measurable results it's a waste.

If we are making the comparison to livestock this is what I remember. 
I'm sure my points are oversimplified if not completely wrong but cut me some slack I made $4.00 an hour $5.00 if I milked! 

Dairy cattle respond reliably to diet changes when taken off pasture (winter). A scoop of this a sprinkle of that and a section of stuff seems to reliably product x#'s with y % butterfat. 
Once back on pasture (spring, summer, fall) general health seemed to improve but feeding in stall was different week to week as was production (milk). The back end production (scraping stalls/gutters seemed to increase despite a day on pasture. My understanding is pasture is cheap butterfat but nutritionally inconsistent, walking (foraging) cattle waste production energy. A day at pasture was "free" but only equalled 20 minutes of feed. One quote I remember when getting lazy with the silage cart and over feeding "you trying to make the worlds most expensive cow [manure]?".



My guess is feeding bees will be more art that science unless we want to take them off pasture.

*or reliable determine excat nutritiinal content and adjust as it changes which is only made more difficult knowing that bees store pollen of varing nutritional value.


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## Ret Sgt. Robert Yates (Dec 5, 2014)

it is ALL about Wintering not the Good Seasons that they can forage for them selves you are simply adding to their diet instead of giving them "Pure Sugar" after all their Pollen is all that and then some if you ever do look up Pollen it is made up of 22 amino acids and other trace elements it is known as the "Most Perfect Food" @ 35 Grams a day it can sustain a human life . so for a bee Colony it is their survival food storage that they have converted and stored in honey yet it still holds the same high level protein and minerals for them and much more then just sugar so honestly as a beekeeper we should do our best to provide the best for them as possible would you not think ? or take less honey from them so they have what they need to survive without being deprived of the protean their bodies need .


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

Ret said:


> The second one is also a PDF and was done in 2000 and also has a impressive list of references at the bottom as well and the Vitamins and Minerals Question is very much addressed in this PDF....
> 
> http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/as...honey-bee-nutrition-supplementary-feeding.pdf


Did you read the conclusion?
I'll summirize......

No one knows how the puzzle goes together. We arent even sure what the right pieces are.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Ian said:


> But Joe that's just it. Most animals don't have the reactions to prevent over consumption of some minerals. Why would bee's be any different. After all they typically consume trace amounts naturaly


Ian, could you please explain a little more, I am not certain of what you mean? Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are saying animals do not have a way of sensing intake until it is too late and their body has to deal with the intake, which may have been over consumed. In most natural forage diets the overabundance of micro-nutrients is rare, but animals do consume the necessary trace amounts, although the trace amounts are often below optimal levels.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Those are some great papers, but again, only scratch the surface of micro-nutrient requirements. They are still great reads none the less!


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Mbeck said:


> Did you read the conclusion?
> I'll summirize......
> 
> No one knows how the puzzle goes together. We arent even sure what the right pieces are.


Yes, I liked that, but we are slowly finding the pieces.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I shouldn't have bashed the links there is good information in them.

Given unlimited resources cattle are good at reaching the production goals they are wired to meet which are as I see it create massive amounts of fetilizer.

Bees build up and swarm.

It's all about production goals.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Mbeck said:


> I shouldn't have bashed the links there is good information in them.
> 
> It's all about production goals.


I didn't take your comments as bashing the articles. There is very little published information on honey bee nutrition and much of it seems to rehash older work.

It really is all about production goals. Wild animals do just fine on their own. However, there is often untapped potential if we as humans provide for limiting resources such as food and shelter.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

I don't have a way to measure this other than the bees go absolutely crazy over the sugar cakes that I make using Laurie's recipe, and I use probably twice the vitamins in the mixture as she does. I actually use 2 different supplements, 1 has the probiotics and the other has the vitamins or minerals that the former lacks. I've also noticed that the bees are calmer and less defensive a few days after the cakes have been added.


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## sterling (Nov 14, 2013)

rweakley said:


> I don't have a way to measure this other than the bees go absolutely crazy over the sugar cakes that I make using Laurie's recipe, and I use probably twice the vitamins in the mixture as she does. I actually use 2 different supplements, 1 has the probiotics and the other has the vitamins or minerals that the former lacks. I've also noticed that the bees are calmer and less defensive a few days after the cakes have been added.


People who smoke dope react the same.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Perhaps they are "medicinal probiotics"...


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

rweakley said:


> I don't have a way to measure this other than the bees go absolutely crazy over the sugar cakes that I make


This is actually a very flawed, bordering on straw man arguement. Put the same experiment into another context. I set up at recess in a school yard with 2 large tables and a sign that says 'free food'. One table is loaded up with veggie plates, the other table has big bowls of sugar candy and chocolate bars. Running this experiment, one would then conclude, a diet of candy and chocolate bars is best for growing children, because it vanished almost instantly when the kids came out, and the veggie table was still half full when they went back to class.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

grozzie2 said:


> This is actually a very flawed, bordering on straw man arguement. Put the same experiment into another context. I set up at recess in a school yard with 2 large tables and a sign that says 'free food'. One table is loaded up with veggie plates, the other table has big bowls of sugar candy and chocolate bars. Running this experiment, one would then conclude, a diet of candy and chocolate bars is best for growing children, because it vanished almost instantly when the kids came out, and the veggie table was still half full when they went back to class.


How does your example have anything to do with bees? Correct me if I'm wrong, but bees main food is SUGAR in the form of nectar and honey. Different mixes of sugar fructose, sucrose, glucose, but still sugar. The fact that they go after these cakes with more enthusiasm than a cake made from just sugar seems to point that they are getting more of what they need. Not only do they go after them, they will eat them as opposed to their stored honey. Not exactly the same as kids turning their noses up over broccoli to eat the snickers bars instead.


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## xphoney (Nov 7, 2014)

JSL said:


> Ian, could you please explain a little more, I am not certain of what you mean? Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are saying animals do not have a way of sensing intake until it is too late and their body has to deal with the intake, which may have been over consumed. In most natural forage diets the overabundance of micro-nutrients is rare, but animals do consume the necessary trace amounts, although the trace amounts are often below optimal levels.


I have seen cattle kill themselves by gorging themselves on things they normally don't get in unlimited quantities. This includes ground corn, soybeans, corn silage, loose salt, green silage, loose mineral, and limestone. I do not know if this issue applies to bees, but domesticated animals will gorge beyond excess.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

JSL said:


> Ian, could you please explain a little more, I am not certain of what you mean? Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are saying animals do not have a way of sensing intake until it is too late and their body has to deal with the intake, which may have been over consumed. In most natural forage diets the overabundance of micro-nutrients is rare, but animals do consume the necessary trace amounts, although the trace amounts are often below optimal levels.


Yes that is exactly what I'm implying. Animals will not stop eating a mineral mix as they will with salt. 

I'm not trying to discredit your vit and min supplement as you seem to have a good handle on the issue. 

From time to time we have a feed sales man stop by for coffee trying to sell us cattle vit and min supplement. For us the ticket is worth tens of thousands. The only thing is we have our feed tested and add supplement as the dietary mix requires... By the cup full costing the farm hundred to a thousand dollars total cost...

I totally agree with Grozzie2. Providing trace vit and min probably is a good plan of action. I really doubt providing it will be evident from a Beekeepers perspective.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Ian said:


> Animals will not stop eating a mineral mix as they will with salt.
> 
> I'm not trying to discredit your vit and min supplement as you seem to have a good handle on the issue.


Ian, I think we are in agreement on this.  There are only a handful of taste receptors that provide an immediate feedback loop, and salt just happens to be one of them. Salt is a mineral, but there are no specific taste receptors for other minerals, so it is a different pathway entirely to deal with too much or too little.

I am not arguing for or against adding a vitamin and mineral supplement to winter feed as I do not have a good handle on needs for winter usage. We take a similar approach in feeding animals, whether it is your cattle or my bees. In bees it is usually not enough food, so the objective becomes balancing out any artificial diets we as beekeepers provide.


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

I must say, I enjoy Ian's input! It always gets me thinking as his approach is often practical and thoughtful. I grew up running around the animal science department and I try to apply animal based concepts to beekeeping, although I get the feeling that some beekeepers view honey bees as special. I try to envision the collective colony as an animal, whether is an 8# animal during the winter or say a 25#+ animal in the summer, it still needs to be fed a diet appropriate for it needs and expectations. A colony can be left to fend for itself, which is fine, or it can be nurtured and managed for increased production. But, if you want it to perform, you need to feed it accordingly. Ian wouldn't feed his cattle a diet of just soy and corn, or hay. He analyzes it and compliments/balances the diets with a vitamin and mineral mix and I assume that changes based on energy requirements of the animals for winter, summer, calving or lactating...


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

xphoney said:


> I do not know if this issue applies to bees, but domesticated animals will gorge beyond excess.


Use chickens as the example, cornish in particular. They have been selected to promote this trait. they will waddle (because they are to fat to walk) up to the trough, and eat everything you put in there. Maximum weight gain in minimum time, but, it's up to you to prevent it from happening to fast, and end up with birds that can no longer stand. For the chicken industry, it's a desirable trait, but, it's certainly not good for those birds.

As for the various vitamin mixes folks are throwing into bee food, I'll add anything to the feed mix for our bees, as long as I know _what it is_, and _why the bees need it_. But throwing something in because it 'seems like a good idea', and then 'double it up because more is better' is just not something I'll do. I love a good plate of liver and onions, and I know that the vitamins in the liver are good for me, in moderation. BUT, I will not touch that same plate of liver if it came from a polar bear, because I also know it's so loaded with fat soluble vitamins, one helping will be a fatal overdose.

As we ramp our bee hobby up from a fun hobby, to a serious revenue sideline, the subject of bee nutrition has been top on my agenda of things to learn about, and I've discovered it's a topic very long on opinions, very short on hard facts from systematic research. I think a big part of this is because so much depends on local microclimates when keeping bees. But, one thing I'm very sure of, I wont be putting stuff into our colonies without a good solid reason to do it. I dont want to be the one discovering that that 'double helping of vitamin x' turns out to be the overdose that just adds more stress to the colony.


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

JSL said:


> He analyzes it and compliments/balances the diets with a vitamin and mineral mix and I assume that changes based on energy requirements of the animals for winter, summer, calving or lactating...


And in that statement, lies hidden the catch. Cattle are a 'well known, and well understood' commodity. You can take a sample of your feed to the lab, and they will send back a report which hilights the shortcomings, with a reccomended set of additives for your feed mix, to achieve optimum. This is a strait forward process, because the needs are well understood.

Are bees different? Yes they are. What makes them so different ? They are not nearly as well understood as cattle. Read every hard research report done on bees, and you come away with more questions than answers on the subject of 'what defines good nutrition for bees?' For cattle, there is a well drawn road map from point A to point B, which includes many side trips based on various medical checks, and most of those side trips on that map, are equally well understood, with known cause / effect relationships for both problems and remedies. We dont have that well drawn research map for bees, there is an amazing amount of 'by guess and by gollee' management in place for bees, because there is so little hard data to work from.

This lack of hard data thru hard research, means we are more or less winging it in trying to figure out solutions to some problems. The analogy that really comes to my mind, the cattle man is driving down the road with a gps providing turn by turn directions in real time, but, the bee truck has only a hand drawn map that's not to scale, and has parts of the map just blank.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I find it very interesting looking in on migratory beekeeping and its almost year round hive management.
We have a half year break, with hives sitting on honey sugar and pollen. Then start up in spring on flowers again. What you Cali beekeepers are doing with feed supplements is right in the money as your conditions dictate it. It's something I am taking bits and pieces of to help improve my colony condition. 
Openly sharing here benifets us all. Thanks for the feedback and keep the conversation going !


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

grozzie2,

I don't think the nutritional road map for honey bees is all that illusive or contorted. I do think there is a lot less research out there for bees as opposed to other animals, but there is sound nutrition research out there. Perhaps the culture in beekeeping arenas is a bit different?

Your poultry analogy is right up my alley. It is interesting to note that with the poultry industry, genetics and nutrition are well synchronized. It is because genetic advancement has been matched by nutrition that today's meat type chicken can be brought to market in about 38 days.

I view beekeeping in a similar light, nutrition needs to be keep pace with genetics. Good bees can do amazing things with proper care and nutrition.


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## Spark (Feb 24, 2011)

I am surprised no one on Beesource has actually fed colony X with vitamins in the feed vs colony Y without for comparison yet. Given natural bee food sources provide vitamins and minerals would it not be wise to provide it in the artificial food?

Maybe a lack of these ingredients lets them become run down just like us humans allowing for disease and sickness to take over. Maybe varroa would be become a minor nuisance if the bees were fed more nutritional meals especially during winter. 

Maybe just organic foods ..thats for Ian


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## Ret Sgt. Robert Yates (Dec 5, 2014)

Mbeck said:


> Did you read the conclusion?
> I'll summirize......
> 
> No one knows how the puzzle goes together. We arent even sure what the right pieces are.


CONCLUSION
Circumstances under which feeding supplements
benefits colonies vary from location to location.
There is still a lot not understood concerning
honey bee nutritional requirements under various
management circumstances. Feeding sugar syrup
has been proven to be highly beneficial in
stimulating colonies and particularly keeping
colonies alive. The feeding of sugar syrup is
practiced widely in many beekeeping countries,

whereas feeding pollen substitutes is not as
widely practiced. There will be a range of

circumstances where protein supplement costs
versus returns will be your major consideration.
Try leaving 10% of the hives in an apiary
without supplements to gauge the return on your
investment in this activity. _After a few years of
_
_feeding supplements you should gain an_
_appreciation of the circumstances in which you_
_will benefit by investing in protein supplements_
_and when not to feed supplements._
_Paying attention to honey bee nutrition is just_
_one of the more important aspects of successful_

_beekeeping. Ensuring that hives are populated by
_
_young productive queen bees is equally as_
_important as paying attention to the management_
_of honey bee nutritional requirements._

What I see is most important in the conclusion of their experiment and this is where if you ask a 100 Beekeepers you would get a % of many different Answers to the questions to feed or Not to feed ? As A New Beekeeper / Bee Husbandry I feel it is my duty to provide the very best feed that I can to my Bees during the winter Months As "I" have "Chosen" to Keep them "Captive" and Not in their "Natural Environment" .

Now I can Do this by Not removing so much Honey (their Natural food source ) or Feeding them a Higher Protein of Vitamins, Minerals, & Carbohydrates that they can convert to readily usable sugars / Honey substitute for them to survive during the winter months only. This is Only my Opinion and based on the two years of research I have been doing as of my obsession with the beloved Honey Bee . 

With Much Respect, Best Regards & Blessings 
Ret, Sgt. Robert D. Yates


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

JSL said:


> It is interesting to note that with the poultry industry, genetics and nutrition are well synchronized. It is because genetic advancement has been matched by nutrition that today's meat type chicken can be brought to market in about 38 days.
> 
> I view beekeeping in a similar light, nutrition needs to be keep pace with genetics. Good bees can do amazing things with proper care and nutrition.


Genetic advancement in the context you describe, means reducing genetic variation. 

Reducing the genetic diversity is the game, in the sense that, by selection of "desirable traits", heritable if at all possible, we can't afford allowing all kinds of potential genetic combinations to mess up with our lining up of the "super" diets that would bring these genetic traits ( selected by us) to fruition.
Feed efficiency and daily gains in livestock, are the measuring stick. All fabulously improved by "genetic improvement" (read reducing genetic variation).

Livestock in general, but industrial livestock in particular ( chickens, turkeys, pigs and beef cattle) have lost more than 50% of the genetic variation of their progenitors. All through selection.
And that, is for a reason. You can't have or use, genetic diversity in a flock of chickens that all eat and convert a high performing diet. I mean you can, but then you're gonna disappoint when it comes to the measuring stick.

But when it comes to honeybees, genetic diversity is retained, despite apparently strong pressures from the bee keeper to push selection one way or another. Beekeepers may be, intentionally or unintentionally, selecting hybrid colonies, which might have higher fitness at some colony-level traits. 

In the end, it appears that genetic diversity in the bees is something the bees really need.

So in this light, how do you go about designing that "super diet" trying to keep up with the ever present and desirable genetic diversity of the honeybees?


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

There is also a question re providing better quality pollen sources for bees. Corn for example is heavily foraged for pollen because there is a dearth of natural sources just at the time corn is most productive. Corn is highly deficient in Lysine and Methionine and otherwise a poor nutritional match for bees. I am growing some corn this year that has higher levels of lysine and another variety that is high methionine. I wonder if the pollen from these plants will also be high in those proteins?

While this thread was started with the title of vitamins and minerals, I think it is more appropriate to view it as an overall bee nutrition thread, just slanted in the vitamin and mineral direction.


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## Ret Sgt. Robert Yates (Dec 5, 2014)

Fusion, 

That is more what I am saying about the thread and my information I have posted However it has included both bits of information . Good Post


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Livestock in general, but industrial livestock in particular ( chickens, turkeys, pigs and beef cattle) have lost more than 50% of the genetic variation of their progenitors. All through selection.

Well, if you look at any particular breed, I'd say it's more like 99% with the goal being 100%... "breeding true" has always been the goal of selective breeding. Breeding out everything you don't want so that what you get is consistent. From that view, the more consistent, the better.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Spark said:


> . Given natural bee food sources provide vitamins and minerals would it not be wise to provide it in the artificial food?
> 
> Maybe just organic foods ..thats for Ian


Not just because hive growth is being built on artificial diet, lot of the time natural diet lacks essential vit and min let alone essential AA. Supplementing with vit and min is right on target and if you look at whT Joe is doing, he is looking to achieve that magic number to achieve a complete diet.

What I do not support is the willy nilly approach lots of beekeepers use when mixing supplements. When adding vit and min, are they adding the right amount? Not enough? Too much? Do they really know or care?? What happens if there is too much of that one min fed??
All these questions are left un answered. The toss it in because it sounds good approach takes place...

How about probiotics? It's the biggest buzz word on bee feeding right now. "Now with probiotics". So.... Ya, why is that important? 
There was a thread recently talking about adding bacteria to a bee supplement ration, lots of what came about from contributing members on beesource pointed out detailed explanations why adding bacteria to a patty formulation will not work along with the reason why generally adding generic bacteria would not have any effect on the bees micro flora population anyway.
So... Why are beekeepers supplementing animal probiotics to their bee feed?
And how are they to determine its efficacy?

It's like that feed sales man selling the cattle farm min supplement. He might of made a saleif we did not know...

And like organic food, most of it sells to the consuming public who just plain out does not know...


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Ian said:


> What I do not support is the willy nilly approach lots of beekeepers use when mixing supplements. When adding vit and min, are they adding the right amount? Not enough? Too much? Do they really know or care?? What happens if there is too much of that one min fed?? All these questions are left un answered. The toss it in because it sounds good approach takes place...


+1 

It seems that many of the beekeepers who are doing supplements use the approach of "that'd be good in my food, so it must be good for the bees', too." Its the same misplaced mentality that the pet food industry successfully exploits to get non-thinking people to pay big bucks for fancy named dog food, when Fido would be just as healthy with human-inedible scraps.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

shinbone said:


> +1
> 
> It seems that many of the beekeepers who are doing supplements use the approach of "that'd be good in my food, so it must be good for the bees', too." Its the same misplaced mentality that the pet food industry successfully exploits to get non-thinking people to pay big bucks for fancy named dog food, when Fido would be just as healthy with human-inedible scraps.


Same is going to happen within the bee industry. Supplemental feeding has caught on to pretty much all beekeepers now, and that's good. But watch as bee feed providers start the sales pitch digging into that vast area of unknown. 
There is money to be made when answers come in the form of dollar signs


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## apis maximus (Apr 4, 2011)

Ian said:


> Same is going to happen within the bee industry. Supplemental feeding has caught on to pretty much all beekeepers now, and that's good. But watch as bee feed providers start the sales pitch digging into that vast area of unknown.


Not, *going* to happen...It is happening already.

Why? Because it works...Not necessarily on the bees, but on our collective minds. Like I pointed out before, on a similar thread...and somebody has mirrored my thought on this thread (*Shinbone*: " _*Its the same misplaced mentality that the pet food industry successfully exploits to get non-thinking people to pay big bucks for fancy named dog food*_...")...

Companies that sell stuff, have a very high budget allocated to advertising not because they are careless with their money. It is because carefully crafted advertising WORKS. 
Carefully, tapping and "digging into that vast area of unknown" as Ian points out. 
And to some extent, we all fall for it. 
It's like that song : "tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies...:banana:"...

Somewhere, deep inside we sort of crave for that "unbelievable" story. Critical thinking....what critical thinking are we talking about? 
More like the Engineering of Consent. Edward Bernays and his uncle Freud, are probably turning in their graves with giddy and joy, giving themselves high fives and thumbs up, being so proud of how far we've come.

Memo to *Dr. Latshaw*: If I was in your shoes, trying to maybe offer a "better and improved" supplement, I would for sure add the words : with Probiotics, Antioxidants, Minerals and Vitamins and maybe even Acai Berry and a dash of parsley. And I do not mean to be sarcastic, sound condescending or be cynical. Really hope that you do not take it as such.
Then, just sit back, and watch the sales indicators. And as you do, just remember good old apis from Beesource...and maybe send me a couple of those beautiful Latshaw Italian Breeder Queens, just for karma.

Good stuff everybody...keep it coming.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

http://scialert.net/qredirect.php?doi=pjbs.2006.589.592&linkid=pdf
Vitamins and pollen patties increase winter survivability, spring build up, production...

http://www.usab-tm.ro/fileadmin/fzb...HEMISTRY,BIOPHYSICS,MATHEMATICS/Marghitas.pdf
Nettle is considered a super food it contain lots of amino acids and vits
"nettle infusion induced the highest growth"

http://www.ibra.org.uk/articles/Honey-bee-brood-antioxidative-system-and-vitamin-C-supplementation
"The mean of bee losses over winter were about 33% lower in colonies receiving vitamin C."


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

Ian said:


> There is money to be made when answers come in the form of dollar signs


I will ask the same question here, I asked in another thread last week.

In researching options for spring feed, I was looking at the Mann Lake catalog. The two higher end options, Ultra Bee, and BeePro. 50lb bag of Ultra Bee runs at 80.95, and the catalog page has a large 'Now with Probiotics' on the page. 50lb bag of BeePro listed at 65.95.

So my question, when researching the difference between the two, was it done on a large scale testing ground, ie, a california holding yard with thousands of colonies waiting for an almond bloom ? Or, was it done by carefully placing a few adds, and guaging how much premium the small volume purchaser is willing to pay extra for the 'Now with Probiotics' label ? That label in small quantities demands a premium of 15 dollars per bag. But the plot thickens.

An even more interesting observation. Instead of pricing the 50lb bag, go look at the 1500 pound tote. Ultrabee in 1500 pound tote, runs 1395, while BeePro in the 1500lb tote is listed at 1495. This strikes me as a very interesting marketing strategy to sell more of the Ultra product. For the smaller markets, price it up, and stick on labels that make it 'buzzword compliant' for the trendy buyers, then for the large volume buyers, downprice to make it the more attractively priced option. Why would they upsell the product to the small purchase market, but downsell for the large purchaser ? Same product, so, raw materials cost delta will be the same, and cost of making the bags should be the same, no matter which dry powder is being put into them.

And while double checking my numbers to write this post, the BeePro patties page has the 'now with probiotics' tag on it, while the dry bag page doesn't. Is this a marketing oversight, or, do the patties get more 'magic' than the dry version ?

Anyone who believes 'bees are different', and the vendors are not playing the 'buzzword bingo margin stretch' game, isn't looking at the reality of what's going on out there.


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

Nice links, very interesting
thanks


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

apis maximus said:


> Memo to *Dr. Latshaw*: If I was in your shoes, trying to maybe offer a "better and improved" supplement, I would for sure add the words : with Probiotics, Antioxidants, Minerals and Vitamins and maybe even Acai Berry and a dash of parsley. And I do not mean to be sarcastic, sound condescending or be cynical. Really hope that you do not take it as such.
> Then, just sit back, and watch the sales indicators. And as you do, just remember good old apis from Beesource...and maybe send me a couple of those beautiful Latshaw Italian Breeder Queens, just for karma.


Apis, I like this! But, I can't do it. The supplement we sell is a work in progress and we change it almost every year. I sell exactly what I use personally. No frills, or magic. There have been some products brought to market by others that we thought of long ago, but could not stand behind such a product or put our name on it simply to sell a product.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

"Probiotics" = The person mixing the food up at the factory sneezes into it a couple of times.


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## Ret Sgt. Robert Yates (Dec 5, 2014)

FlowerPlanter said:


> http://scialert.net/qredirect.php?doi=pjbs.2006.589.592&linkid=pdf
> Vitamins and pollen patties increase winter survivability, spring build up, production...
> 
> http://www.usab-tm.ro/fileadmin/fzb...HEMISTRY,BIOPHYSICS,MATHEMATICS/Marghitas.pdf
> ...


Very Nice Resources Thank you for Sharing them Brother .


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## Spark (Feb 24, 2011)

I would think there are enough scientists/chemists on the forum that could actually come up with a quick recipe of minerals/vitamins to mirror the same in honey to weight vs say fondant weight for winter feed. I believe bees are like all living things lacking in diet opens them up to sickness and disease where the healthy brush it off.

I am not a scientist nor a chemist so at best a rogue druggist if I where to try experimenting.

Ian I like the reply we are still buds :thumbsup:


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