# Does Bee Quick work well?



## BaldyLocks (Apr 22, 2005)

yes


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## TroyDere (Jul 6, 2006)

I've been pretty impressed. I like the smell of it, and the bees hate it. It's the perfect combination. In the hot sun a fume pad put on top for just a couple minutes and that super will have just a few confused bees left in it.


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## beegee (Jun 3, 2003)

I think BeeGo works a little more quickly, but Bee Quick is my choice because it smells a whole lot better. BeeGo's insipid odor lasts a really long time and it permeates everything. Youcan't even store your fumeboard in a closed building withBeeGo.

BeeQuick has a more pleasant almond-like odor. I use BeeQuick and then blow out the few remaining bees with a small leaf blower.


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## wayacoyote (Nov 3, 2003)

Oh, yeah, it works. And love that smell!

Waya


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## cider (May 22, 2002)

Thanks for the information I will try it.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

and don't spill your BeeGo in the cab of your truck.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

The good thing about Bee-Quick is that *YOU* get to 
decide for yourself if you like it. If you don't, you get your
money back, without hassle.

Every bottle says, right on the label _"Your Money's Worth
Or Your Money Back"_. It is the only product in all of
beekeeping that offers such an assurance.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

> If you don't, you get your money back, without hassle.

Is shipping cost both ways also included?


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

A 7 ounce bottle of Bee Quick lists for $11.75. If I had it mailed to me, let's assume the total shippng weight came to a pound. That runs about $4.00. I live in a cooler climate than other beekeepers generally do and while most people seem satisfied with Bee Quick, I have on rare occassions heard a few people say they were less than satisfied with it. If I bought a bottle and it turned out to be unsatisfactory up here in Alaska I'd have to spend an additional $4.00 to return the bottle. The total cost to me would be $19.75. So, if Bee Quick didn't work as I hoped it might would I only be reimbursed $11.75? Or, would I also have the additional $16.00 shipping cost returned?


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## Dwight (May 18, 2005)

I think temperature definitely determines effectiveness. I live in Northern Vermont. I tried Beequick on one of the warmest days we typiclly get here (We average one day per year ninety or above). I didn't get great results but I think the fume board just didn't get and stay warm enough. 
I won't put anything that smells as terrible as bee-go on my hives so I guess it is Bee escapes or blowers for me. Brushing is most effective if you don't have too many supers.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Is the metal part of your fume board painted black? If not, do so and then put it directly facing the sun. It'll heat up good even in Vermont.


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## jim_R (Jan 11, 2005)

is there any kind of almond scent left on the capped comb?


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

> I didn't get great results but I think the fume board just didn't get and stay warm enough. 

That seems to be one of those sporadic disappointments I hear. I'm not certain it would work in my cooler climate, either. Some posts a few weeks ago mentioned using a cold smoker to pump fumes into the hive. I did find that intriguing. I might be willing to try it, if I was assured of getting all my money back, inclduding shipping costs, if it doesn't live up to expectations here in the north. I would rather not chance trying it if only about half my money was returned, though. I, too, have good results with escape boards.


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## Dwight (May 18, 2005)

Tia,
I did paint the outside of my fume board black and I left it in direct sunlight in the warmest part of the afternoon for a couple of hours but I still was not happy with the results. 
Maybe I expect too much but If I am to spend $12.00 for 7 ounces of liquid I expect it to chase most of the bees out of the supers and it did not.


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## kenpkr (Apr 6, 2004)

I used it back last month with a fume board that wasn't painted and it worked fine. It was in morning shade too. I think the trick is leaving it on long enough to give them time to move down. It won't be completely empty of bees (even Bee-Go didn't do that for me) but it was enough to pull the super. I think I'll try the cold smoker idea next time as a supplement to the fume board. The smell of Bee Quick is very pleasing also.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Is shipping cost both ways also included?

The question made me laugh at first, until I
realized that Dick was serious.

I will have to consult with the various dealers
about this, but given that the total number of
bottles returned for credit since 1999 has been
less than what one could count on one hand, I
am perfectly willing to eat such costs in the
event that a dealer balks for the special case
of Alaska. But seeing as you want to put me
on the spot, please send me an e-mail to 
discuss this in detail.

> I live in Northern Vermont. 

That's South of Quebec, where many happy 
repeat customers keep their bees.

> I didn't get great results but I think the 
> fume board just didn't get and stay warm enough.

The "smoker" approach mentioned elsewhere in 
this thread may work better for you, but if it
was in the 90s, you may have simply needed to
spray a bit more on the fume board to get the
results you wanted. Bottom line, there is no
way to predict the exact reaction of bees to
anything, so I would be a fool to make any
firm claims about some random hive at some
random location, harvested by someone who may
have never havested even a single super before.

One thing I can say is "harvest early, harvest
often". What was blooming recently that prompted
such late harvests?


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## kc in wv (Feb 1, 2006)

I live in Southern WV and believe it or not one local city (Bluefield) serves free lemonade when the temp reaches 90*. So far this year they have served it twice. 

Now as far as Bee Quick. This is my second year of using it I found that if it doesn't work it is because the fume board is not warm. Some people I know use a black fabric instead of metal to cover the board. 

>>> "Jim ask" What was blooming recently that prompted such late harvests?" 
For us Sourwood finished up in July and there was some late thistle and clover bloom. The goldenrod just startd and will probably go until the frost

Just yesterday I took off some thistle and clover honey. I let the fumeboard sit facing the sun while I inspected for mites and then put 3 pumps on of Bee Quick on the board. The bees moved down in about 5 minutes.


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## rjshimmel (Oct 16, 2003)

A wind or breeze board should work better in cooler weather.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Yes Jim I was serious, and no I didn't intend putting you "on the spot". Some guarantees cover only the cost of replacement, while other guarantees will reimburse shipment. I bought a DR brush mower a few years back and was unsure if it would work on my dad's farm in rocky upstate New York. The company offered a 90 day money back guarantee INCLUDING shipping costs, by truck, both ways if the machine proved to be unsatisfactory. We bought one and it worked great. I was truly impressed by those folks and the promise they made. 

I don't see that there is anything to discuss privately about your guarantee that can't be posted publicly is there?


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## Sherpa1 (Dec 10, 2005)

Dick says "Or, would I also have the additional $16.00 shipping cost returned?" 
Dick, If it costs $4.00 to ship to you and $4.00 for you to return it, why would you want $16.00 additional shipping cost returned?
Jim, If I can get that double my shipping cost back guarantee send me 10,000 bottles which I will return to you the next day (unopened).
Seriously, I have used this product and it has worked for me. It is so much better than any other product of its kind on the market. I don't think that one can expect that a product can be developed that will work perfectly under all user conditions (including nuances in user application). What we have here is one of our own who has undertaken the commitment in time and expense to develop a product that is useful for our industry. If you wish to give Jim feedback about conditons under which the results were less than optimal, then give him specific details that he can use (how did you apply, what was the temperature, did you use a commerical fumeboard or something of your design, and so forth). And I have to wonder, if bee escapes, blowers or whatever method you are using is working just great for you, why would you be considering another method.

[ August 29, 2006, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: NoviceBee ]


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## Dwight (May 18, 2005)

Jim, it is not my intent to diss your product, it sounds like many people have had good luck with it. I did follow instructions when I tried it and I kept adding more in an attempt to get it to work. I ended up using the whole bottle for three hives and still had to brush some bees off the comb. My hives are not in direct sun light therefore I still think it was just to cool for the product to work well. Or maybe the shelf life had expired on the bottle I had. I'm not sure the reason. Maybe I will try the smoker method some time and see if that works better. 
And I have harvested many supers before as I have been keeping bees as a hobby for 15 years.
As far as "harvesting often and harvesting early" our main flow here in Vermont starts late June and runs through July so I harvest the first week of August which is about as early as we can harvest here. Sometimes if we get a good goldenrod flow I harvest a little more in September.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> I don't see that there is anything to discuss privately about 
> your guarantee that can't be posted publicly is there?

My intent was to avoid putting YOU on the spot, since many
of your posts tend to be idle speculation. If you really were
interested in the product, I was going to make an exception,
given that I don't know of any Alaskan bee supply dealers
that might eliminate your shipping expense issue.

But if you were just trying to poke at a policy that is already
exceptional in order to make it look less exceptional than
it is, and are happy with your current approach to harvesting,
I was just going to admit that Alaska just is not a "worthwhile
market" for beekeeping supplies in general, and agree that
life is sometimes unfair to those who choose to live in places
far away from manufacturing and distribution centers.

On the other hand, you get your oil royalties check every
year, while the rest of us pay between $2 and $3 per gallon
for the stuff...









[ August 29, 2006, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Jim Fischer ]


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Back to what the orginal poster asked.

Yes! Beequick does work. I have found it to work in both Shady and sunny environments. I even used it once in the rain and it worked then as well. 

It definately worked better on a warm day with the sun beating down on the fume board.

I like it and don't think you can beat it.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

It works better than you know!!!!


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

I suppose I'm missing something but I fail to see how I am on the spot asking about your guarantee. Many companies do refund shipping costs with their product's return if it fails to meet customer satisfaction. What needs to be said in private about your guarantee that can't be posted publicly? 

Jim, I was simply asking about your guarantee. It was not done with the intention of offending you. Again, there is no reason for private email exchanges about your guarantee. If you say you will return the purchase cost plus shipping expense if Bee Quick does not work as advertised then I'll take you at your word. I might consider trying it next season. But, jeese! is that any way to treat a potential customer???  

>Dick, If it costs $4.00 to ship to you and $4.00 for you to return it, why would you want $16.00 additional shipping cost returned?

Right you are NoviceBees. Sometimes simple math gets too complicated for me. $4.00 + $4.00 ==> $16.00. Now there's some real speculation.


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## GaSteve (Apr 28, 2004)

I've found Bee-Quick to work very well. It can be tempting to not let it work long enough. I found it works best to remove the fume board off one hive, reapply Bee-Quick, and put it on the next hive. While it's working, load up the first hive's supers. If you have a lot of hives, I suppose you could apply several fume boards at once to save time.

Like others have said, it does not have an unpleasant smell, but it lingers forever. I've smelled it on wet supers a couple days after extracting. But once it's gone, it seems to be gone for good with no apparent signs of it at all in the supers or the honey.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Well, our temperatures typically are in the 60's and 70's summertime. It generally does not go over 80 in Alaska's southcentral region. Mid 60's to lower 70's are about the best that can be had during extraction time. So, I'm not sure a fume board would work here. Those few who have expressed disappointment in Bee Quick on other lists I think are in the more northern areas of the U.S. Maybe it would work using a fume board here, but I simply don't know

The smoker method mentioned a time or two in the past has sparked my interest though.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>.Jim, it is not my intent to diss your product.

It sincerely is not my intent either, I'd just like to hear a little more from some of the more northern beekeepers who are not removing honey in 80 degree and above temperatures. 

Dwight do you happen to know what your mean temperatures are when removing honey?


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Have there been any residue problems associated with using this bee repellant?


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

I was at an auction and bought a load of
bee stuff. Amongst the boxes were 4 or 5
pint bottles of "Bee Go". I sprayed a bit
out on cardboard and nearly vomited!!!

Do people still use this!!!!! If you do...
Why??? The Bee Quick smells very nice and
does the job.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Bee Go and Honey Robber are Butyric acid. That's Latin for "smells like vomit".


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## Jim Williamson (Feb 16, 2006)

Bee Quick works! I like to spray a liberal amount on some cardboard coiled inside an unlit smoker and puff away. It's even Bee Quicker. Earlier this summer, I had a problem with bees clustering on my swimming pool thermometer tether, soaking up water in the hot weather. A couple of squirts of Bee Quick kept them off the string and back to their kiddie pool I supplied near the bee yard. The thing that separates Bee Quick from similar products is that it's all natural. God knows what they put in some of that stuff. Do you want to be spraying something on your honey that smells like last month's road kill?

As a side note, I met Jim Fischer at EAS 2006 this year. He's a fine fellow and, if he says he'll refund your money if you're not happy, I'd take him at his word. Get him to tell you about bee lining some time. He gave a very entertaining and informative lecture and demonstration which we all thoroughly enjoyed.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Bee Go and Honey Robber are Butyric acid. 
> That's Latin for "smells like vomit"

Actually, they are both Butyric Anhydride, a
pesticide that no longer has any legal "food use"
since the EPA "_expemption from the requirement
for a tolerance in honey_" was revoked for 
Butyric Anhydride back in 1998.

The folks who sell Butyric Anhydride (there are
multiple companies that make and/or sell this
stuff to unsuspecting beekeepers) are very quick
to try to gloss over the difference between Butyric
Anhydride and Butyric Acid, as they want to
confuse matters, claiming that Butyric Anhydride
breaks down to Butyric Acid when it is used, and
also claiming that Butyric Acid is a natural
component of honey.

While these statements are is partly true (some 
large fraction of Butyric Anhydride will hydrolize 
to Butyric Acid when it is exposed to air and/or 
moisture), they are not compeltely true statements 
by any means. They are deliberately misleading.

Significant amounts of Butyric Anhydride remain
detectable in both honey and wax, and the
Butyric Acid residues are at levels that are
several orders of magnitude above what would
ever be found in honey, as Butyric Acid is a
TRACE LEVEL component of honey at most.

If using Butyric Anhydride was more common,
the squeeze bear would have long ago been
replaced by the squeeze SKUNK.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Is there any residue problems associated with using Fischers Bee Quick?
Becasue what exactly makes this ****tale up?


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Like most products the formula is proprietary.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Is there any residue problems associated with 
> using Fischers Bee Quick?

There have not been since 1999.
That said, I'm sure that someone, somewhere will be
dumb enough someday to do something like spray 
the stuff directly onto uncapped frames someday, and 
make me a liar, so I guess I should qualify my 
statement to be "_not when used per directions_".

> Becasue what exactly makes this ****tale up?

Nothing but 100% food-grade all-natural stuff from
plants and herbs and extracts of flowers.


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## Barry Tolson (May 26, 2004)

Ok...I just used Bee Quick today for the first time...helping a friend with his harvest. This was the first time for both of us. It was in the low-mid 70's and partly cloudy. We are both definitely sold on the product. It worked well enough, but worked faster when the sun would come out and shine on the fume board. I used some aluminium flashing to make the fume board. Even painted dark brown, it cooled of as soon as the shade came. Perhaps a thin sheet of steel would hold the heat better. Anyway....we were really happy with it and plan on using it from now on. Thanks Jim!
Barry


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

Again,,,,,,,, Anyone out there that uses
Bee Poo or Honey Robber please explain
why???


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>There have not been since 1999.


Have you done any residue studdy? 


>>Nothing but 100% food-grade all-natural stuff from
plants and herbs and extracts of flowers. 

This is what really concerns me. Everyone here is linking food grade and all-natural with "safe". 
Formic acid is food grade, Oxalic acid is food grade, menthol is food grade, none of which are used during flow becasue of residue concerns. 

So your selling a repellant to be used during a flow situation, and will not tell us what is in it, but tell us not to worry about residue.?
At least show us a studdy to prove your substance does not hold in the honey after use.

Has the government asked for this?


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>I offered you a free bottle with shipping included and you laughed at me. If that isn't good enough for you, I give up.

I admit, I didnt ask Jim for a free bottle. Now you did read the post immediately following the one I did kidding you, didnt you?

I said I most likely would try some next season as my honey crop is already removed this season. Im another person just asking for some information, not trade secrets. You said it would work at 75º. Will it work at 60º - 65º, too? Thats not an unheard of temperature for removing honey in Alaska. I have been assured by Jim that all my money will be refunded if I try it and it doesnt live up to expectations. But, its still a hassle to have to return something, and Id rather not have to, therefore Id like to be somewhat certain it would work. Right now Im still inclined to think it might not in our cooler region.

>I can't help but wonder if you would have not already bought it with the hope that it would work if the name Jim Fischer were not involved with it.

Nope, the name Jim Fischer has nothing to do with it. In fact I have never met the man and until just a few weeks back didnt even know what he looked like.


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## Sundance (Sep 9, 2004)

It works fine at low temps with a breeze
board.....


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

>>>Formic acid is food grade, Oxalic acid is food grade, menthol is food grade...<<<

Where did you learn this? All Formic is food grade? All menthol is food grade? the Oxalic that you buy in the hardware store is food grade?

OK. Time to rope the dead horse and drag it past one more time...

There are industrial grades, food grade, and medicinal grades of these products where I come from.

If you are trying to play 'pin the tail on the donkey', you beter look out; that tail is coming right at you.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Have you done any residue studdy? 

Better than that, we know the exact amount one must
spill into honey to get detectable residue at the parts-per-
trillion level, using better equipment than your own
Health Canada PMRA can get access to. (We can't afford
to buy this gear ourselves, as the current state-of-the-
art toys cost more than most yachts, but we know a
nice fellow at an equipment leasing/rental company...)
By the way, are you aware that with the same gear, I 
can tell you if the beekeeper who tends the hives drives
a diesel or gasoline-powered truck? Have you any idea
just how many things one can "detect" when one starts
messing around at the parts-per-trillion level? Here's
a hint - go easy on the after-shave, and switch to unscented
deodorant, ok?









> This is what really concerns me. Everyone here is linking 
> food grade and all-natural with "safe". 

Well, I could also use the term "Generally Recognized
As Safe" (GRAS), a formal term used by the (US) Food
and Drug Administration to describe things that are,
ummm, _known to be safe_, if it will make you
feel any better, but I'm not sure that Canada agrees
with 100% of the US list. To be honest, I don't
really care. 

> Formic acid is food grade, 

You should read what Harry Vanderpool wrote above, and
then ask Heather Clay a few pointed questions about this.
As I recall, a certain Canadian firm that sells a foam pad
for Formic Acid applications claimed that even "industrial
grade" Formic could be used without concerns in a beehive,
and Heather reported to the world as a whole that, due to
the dilutions used, that this was correct. After she
recovered from the sound of jaws hitting the floor in the
smaller conservative fundamentalist extremist nation 
directly to the South of Canada, the one in which the
bulk of Canada's honey is dumped^H^H^H^H^H^H sold,
I think she changed the official policy to be more in synch
with the rest of the planet's concept of "food adulteration".

> So your selling a repellant to be used during a flow 
> situation, and will not tell us what is in it, but tell us 
> not to worry about residue?

Here's an idea Ian... then *DON'T BUY IT*.
If you are paranoid, I can understand, and there
are lots of ways that a Canadian can get the honey
off his hives given your shorter season, sharper
temperature drop in early fall, and so on.

> At least show us a studdy to prove your substance 
> does not hold in the honey after use.

I'd love to, but a formal study with all the bells and
whistles would cost more money than the product
makes in a decade. Given that the profits go to bee
research, it would be a serious bummer to suddenly
have to start throwing my weight around and demand
what specific subject of research be funded by the
money currently donated without strings attached.

> Has the government asked for this?

No government planet-wide has. Nope, not even Canada.
Canada's PMRA did drag their feet from 1999 until just
last spring, proving just how polite and patient I can be
with a bunch of ignorant and willfully stubborn bureaucrats,
but even they at last realized that bees were simply not
considered "pests" by beekeepers, and therefore, a 
product used only by beekeepers only to manage bees was 
not a pesticide of any sort.

Now, if Canada (or any country anywhere) had ever asked for
any sort of "residue study" on Bee-Go/Honey Robber et al,
which have been sold and used in Canada since they were
first introduced in the mid-1980s, I might see your point.
Anyone with a nose can detect a "residue" in honey when
these Butyric Anhydride products are used, so much that 
"airing out" supers prior to extraction is standard practice, 
as it allows one to avoid the need to give one's honey house
a good scrubbing down, (and then, just to be sure, a good
burning down) after extraction.







Even then, one can smell
an operation that uses the stuff from half a km away, months
later.

But they didn't, so I don't really like the idea of forcing me to
undergo all that trouble and expense and bother.

But please Ian, don't buy it, don't use it. I agree with you
that the obvious way to avoid any/all potential issues would 
be to continue to keep bees exactly the way they did in the
1800s. If you have the time and staff to run your operation that way,
good for you, and as I said, someone sufficiently incompetent
_very well could_ end up with a detectable residue if they, for
example, sprayed the stuff in excessive amounts directly
on/into uncapped frames, rather than using a fume board
or other device.

I should also note that the only place where Bee-Quick is currently 
allowed to be used in a Certified Organic operation is Hawaii
(which appears to be the only place in the USA where one can 
produce actual Certified Organic honey anyway). We have not 
yet gotten the paperwork done to put that USDA green dot on 
the product itself, as the paperwork is monstrous.


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>I can't help but wonder if you would have not already bought it with the hope that it would work if the name Jim Fischer were not involved with it.

I buy it and use it in spite of his name being on it.

I pulled my honey in 100 degree temps this year using two fume boards alternately. I used one bottle pulling from 15 hives, but I also put it on the bread trays above and below the stack of pulled supers to keep the bees out of the stack.

Three puffs won't do the trick for me, it takes more like six or seven per hive, and if you have any brood in the super forget it. Even Bee Quick won't move bees off of brood.

I also use BQ sometimes while doing extractions in houses. Last week I had the queen run down the wall behind the brick facing followed by about a quart of bees. I poured some BQ down the wall and they came back up to the waiting arm of my vac.

One warning about using it in a smoker. If your smoker is not clean you will puff ash all over your honey. Yes I did.  

Dick, I think you should try freezing it first, I'm sure it would last longer.  

http://www.beesource.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=19;t=000020#000000

I bet you won't see Naturebee (Pcolor) using this product.


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## iddee (Jun 21, 2005)

>>I buy it and use it in spite of his name being on it.<<

Bill, You just ain't right!!!


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Better than that, we know the exact amount one must
spill into honey to get detectable residue at the parts-per-
trillion level, using better equipment than your own
Health Canada PMRA can get access to.


What were your results?


>>All Formic is food grade? All menthol is food grade? the Oxalic that you buy in the hardware store is food grade?
>>Time to rope the dead horse and drag it past one more time.

You guys are getting a little worked up by a few directed questions. 
The stuff I used was described as food grade. I didnt think I needed to be that specific.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>If you are trying to play 'pin the tail on the donkey', you beter look out

Really now Harry,

If I buy formic, or Oxalic ,or Menthol, I know exactly what I am buying, as discribed on the lable.

Now Bee Quick?

[ September 05, 2006, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Ian ]


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

^I Jim, do you realize how few of us understood ^H^H^H^H ? I did, of course. ^M^J


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## longarm (Apr 21, 2006)

I always suspected there was a secret beekeepers code! 
now if i can just get the handshake down..

BTW - BeeQuick works.


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## Dwight (May 18, 2005)

longarm, You're just sucking up to Jim so he will give you the code....LOL


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> how few of us understood ^H^H^H^H ?

Oh, yeah... sorry folks, "^H" is a way of pretending
to have hit the backspace/delete key on the keyboard,
as the ASCII code for backspace is "control-H". 

So, one could type something nasty, follow it with
a string of control-Hs, and claim "_golly, must have
been line noise that screwed up my delete/edit _".

In fact, you can still use control-H as "backspace", just 
hold down the "control" key on your keyboard when typing,
and press the "h" key when you are typing, even when
composing a BeeSource message.

Yeah, we didn't have backspace keys when I started in
computers. Heck, we couldn't even afford enough ones, 
so we had to write some of our programs at the end of
the fiscal quarter using nothing but ZEROES!!!


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## George Fergusson (May 19, 2005)

On unix systems, if your terminal emulation ain't quite working right, hitting the backspace in an attempt to delete something simply generates a ^H character on screen. A properly configured terminal emulation setup usually maps control-H to the delete key, the ascii code for which I seem to have forgotten.


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## JeffJones (Sep 7, 2006)

If anybody here is interested in bees, here's a great video to watch: http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=1034359218351707050&q=City+of+the+Bees


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> On unix systems, if your terminal emulation ain't 
> quite working right,

1970:
$ set term=KSR33
$ export TERM

1975:
$ set term=ADM3
$ export TERM

1980:
$ set TERM=vt100
$ export TERM

1981:
$ set TERM=BLIT5620
$ export TERM

1990 to present:
$ set TERM=vt100
$ export TERM

Somehow, we've gone backwards...









> If anybody here is interested in bees

Oh yeah, Bees... the AT&T 3B2, 3B10, 3B20, and the
amazing 3B1 Desktop Unix system!








http://www.unixwiz.net/3b2/docs.html
Anyone want a 3B1? I have 2 in mint condition, with
all sorts of plug-ins, including the famous "Voice Power"
board for DSP audio processing.

[ September 08, 2006, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Jim Fischer ]


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

> On unix systems, if your terminal emulation ain't quite working right....<
I'm still working on my honey bee colony emulation.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>>>Better than that, we know the exact amount one must
spill into honey to get detectable residue at the parts-per-
trillion level, using better equipment than your own
Health Canada PMRA can get access to.


You have done the trials, what were your results?

[ September 27, 2006, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: Ian ]


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## JaiPea (Sep 27, 2005)

Hi Dwight,

> I ended up using the whole bottle for three
> hives and still had to brush some bees off the comb.

It reads as if you expected all the bees to rush out of the super.

That's not a reasonable expectation.

Most bees most of the time will clear out of a super.

Some bees some of the time need to be individually flicked off comb.

Temperature has some influence, but all you should expect Bee Quick (or any other method for that matter) to achieve is reduce the number of bees in a super, not clear them out to the extent of vacancy.

Bee Quick mixes with water, and light concentrations (1 teaspoon/quart) are effective when used directly e.g. if a swarm is located in a position that is hard to access and being a problem in a public place, spray the bees and the area around it with a sprayer. It usually takes 15 minutes and a couple of squirts but the swarm will relocate.

I've never tried spraying in a super, but if the temperatures are too cold for the fumes to work, light concentrations with a sprayer could be an alternative.

JP


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>I've never tried spraying in a super, but if the temperatures are too cold for the fumes to work, light concentrations with a sprayer could be an alternative.

 Would you really want to do that with honey in the super that is going to be extracted?


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Bee Quick mixes with water, and light 
> concentrations (1 teaspoon/quart) are effective
> when used directly e.g. if a swarm is located 
> in a position that is hard to access...

Yep, people do that. Please understand that
we cannot label or sell the product for use 
as a "swarm removal aid", due to the liability
issues that would arise the first time Mr.
Hapless Homeowner orders and bottle and thinks
he can use it to someone convince an established
hive of AHB to relocate. Tech support for
actual beekeepers is done via e-mail, as 
beekeepers clearly assume all sorts of liability
the moment they bring home a box full of bees
and park it in their back yard.









> I've never tried spraying in a super, but if 
> the temperatures are too cold for the fumes 
> to work, light concentrations with a sprayer 
> could be an alternative.

Please, *NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Never spray ANYTHING directly into supers!
You want the fumes in the supers, and the 
liquid to stay on cloth in the fume board, or 
on the cloth in the breeze board, or on the
cloth in the unlit smokers that some have
mentioned as being handy alternatives.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>or on the cloth in the unlit smokers that some have mentioned as being handy alternatives

Yep, I'm confused again.  Didn't you report earlier that smokers didn't work well?


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

>Yep, I'm confused again.

I tried (BQ) in an unlit smoker, I haven't lit it all year. but it still has a lot of ash in it, and it puffed the ash all over my honey frames. I just can't find a good use for that thing.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Bill, I've got it! I think Bee Quick might work in Alaska in a LIT smoker! Eureka!  
(edit: with LOTS and LOTS of smoke....)

[ September 28, 2006, 12:26 AM: Message edited by: Dick Allen ]


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## BULLSEYE BILL (Oct 2, 2002)

Well that's one way to raise the temperature to a working degree!


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

I used Bee Quick and the bees did just POUR out of the hive. I think I brought 5 or 10 bees into the house with me. As I mentioned in another forum, I will try using a hair dryer to heat the metal if it's too cold for it to work on the day I decide to steal the last of the honey for this year.


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

Rod, I'm looking forward to hearing your results.


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## Radar (Sep 4, 2006)

I am using a solar fan on a board,it clears super, apart from a few stragglers in 2-3 minutes. I do 1 super at a time working my way down.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

My last harvest was on a cool overcast dday. I used half a bottle of BQ on the fume board without success. I heated up the metal top of the fume board with the propane torch i use to light my smoker, without success.

ended up brushing off each frame.

Anyone have plans for a breeze board, I would like to try to make one. Does a breeze board help on cool overcast days?


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## Hillside (Jul 12, 2004)

I used the rest of last year's bottle on a warm, but half overcast day. Some of my hives were also in the shade of a large tree while I was in the process of removing the supers.

I couldn't get the bees to clear out. On a 6-5/8 super, the bees would go down about 4 inches before they bunched up and would go no further. About a third of the bees were still in the super.

I put a towel on the trailer bed and applied some bee quick. Then I placed the super on the towel and put an escape board on top of the super with the exit facing up. Within a few minutes the bees were all out. I was able to keep stacking supers on the truck and the bees kept coming out. It added a step to the process, but it worked well and didn't really require much extra effort.

The only trouble I had was the bees that came out through the escape boards tended to crowd on the side of the stack. I ended up brushing them off the outside of the stacks of supers before I left the bee yard, which really wasn't a big deal. If I had a blower, they could have easily been blown off. 

I haven't found the perfect way to remove bees from a super, but BQ is probably the best system I've found so far. Just because I use it a little differently than the label instructs doesn't mean it works poorly; just that I need to modify things a bit for my environment.

I still think if I was working in the direct sun that it would work better, but I just can't always make that happen. The towel and escape board works well enough that I will plan on doing it again next year. I'll need to buy another bottle.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Hillside
Good thinking. I will have to get another bottle for next year too. It works great on the fume board on a nice day, just need to get it down on the overcast and cool ones.
Plus I think I am getting addicted to the smell...


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Jim I think you should be stressing a little 
> clearer that following lable instructions are 
> imperative, 

I can't order people around. What can I say to,
for example, prevent the error of not cleaning
out a smoker when trying the "smoker trick", and
puffing ash all over your top bars? I'd end up
with a 50-page book with a pedantic list of 
every possible thing, starting with _"Don't
drink this, it does not taste good at all"_









> you still havent proven to me that there isnt 
> any residue problems associated with your 
> product.

Then don't buy it!









If you have even the slightest concern, I
don't want you to be uneasy about it.
You have lots of options, you have the skill
and expertise to use any methods you like,
and you can make your own choices. I refuse
to "sell" something that sells itself quite
well, thank you very much.

You will likely feel better about it after you 
see your peers using it. (If it helps at all, 
Bee-Quick is the only registered and approved 
product for herding bees in New Zealand, and 
they export 99.2% of their honey to the 
dreaded EU countries, who make up new reasons
to implement non-tariff barriers to honey
on a regular basis, like bogus HMF requirements.)

As this thread has pointed out, there is no such
thing as "foolproof" when everyone and his brother
wants to get creative, moreso when they waited
all summer, and want to harvest in late fall.
(_"Oh, gee.. I remember now... I have BEES, and 
they make HONEY... maybe I should take some
off now that the chills of fall are upon us."_)
What part of "_Harvest Early, Harvest Often_"
was unclear?










All I can say is that unlike Butyric,
Bee-Quick is not something that would create
a problem of using a non-food-grade product
in close contact with honey, something that
makes your honey "unfit for human consumption"
if you read the regulations. If you've used
Butyric, you were using a known toxic pesticide
that no longer has any permitted food use, 
and has not had an EPA "tolerance" in honey
(or an exemption from the requirement for a
tolerance) since 1998.

[ October 15, 2006, 08:13 PM: Message edited by: Jim Fischer ]


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>If you've used Butyric, you were using a known toxic pesticide
that no longer has any permitted food use, and has not had an EPA "tolerance" in honey (or an exemption from the requirement for a tolerance) since 1998.

When you contacted the govenrment and informed them they are violating its laws by not sending out the black helicopters and federal goons against beekeepers who are using such a dangerous posion, what what their response??

Have any reports surfaced over anyone being sickened by consuming honey that was removed using Butyric?

Ian makes a good point. How about some polite and truly informative responses to a couple of questions being asked. I'm still trying to get some temperature ranges on Bee Quick since I have read reports from a few beekeepers of less than stellar results in cooler regions. The person who markets the product ignores all such requests and goes off on a tangent or invites those who are asking a couple of legitimate questions to not use the stuff.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> When you contacted the govenrment...

I have done no such thing. It is not my
place to point out the obvious to the
government. They chose not to enforce their
own regulations on many fronts under the
current administration.

> Have any reports surfaced over anyone being 
> sickened by consuming honey that was removed 
> using Butyric?

There have been many cases of beekeepers having
respiratory problems when using Butyric, some
severe and acute, but people just don't eat 
enough honey to prompt one to expect any consumer
heath impact.

> I'm still trying to get some temperature ranges 
> on Bee Quick since I have read reports from a 
> few beekeepers of less than stellar results in 
> cooler regions. 

The useful range of Bee-Quick is far too 
dependent upon the bees (and, as this thread
proves, the beekeeper) to draw any lines, or 
list any numbers. Like anything that volatilizes 
at "room temperature", you can get more volatiles
to oxidize at higher temperatures. Why not ask
the Butyric folks what THEIR temperature ranges
are? They had 30 years to work them out, but
I've never seen any from them, either. Maybe
they came to the same conclusion, that there
are simply too many variables.

> The person who markets the product ignores all 
> such requests 

Certainly not. What part of the phrase on the
label "_Your Money's Worth Or Your Money 
Back_" is unclear to you? 

Does anyone else stand behind their product 
like that? 

What works for one person very well may not work
in the hands of another, and this thread alone
shows just how much variability exists between
different beekeepers actual use of a product
supplied with a very clear instruction sheet.









My view is that the EAS Bee Research Fund does
not want your money unless you are happy, so
we offer a no-nonsense refund if you are not
delighted. 

> and goes off on a tangent or invites those who 
> are asking a couple of legitimate questions to 
> not use the stuff.

Given the prior history with the specific folks
asking the questions, one has to view your use
of the phrase "legitimate" with a large bag of
salt. Questions would come via e-mail. What
happens here, mostly, is called "baiting".
Sorry, I'll not take the bait.

> invites those who are asking a couple of 
> legitimate questions to not use the stuff.

No, I am inviting those who express concerns to 
not use the stuff. Its called "being reasonable".
A reasonable man does not attempt something 
about which he has "legitimate" concerns.
(Of course, a _reasonable_ man would send 
an e-mail to the vendor, rather than hoping that
the vendor will see a posting to some obscure
message board, and take the time to use the
kludgy web-based text entry screen to reply.)

[ October 15, 2006, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: Jim Fischer ]


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> restricting the use of your product 
> and your unaware of it?

Funny, years ago, they were all worried about
it being "registered", so I went back and forth
with PMRA for *FIVE YEARS*, until they
finally agreed that it was not a "pesticide"
for the simple reason that bees were not pests
to beekeepers, but were livestock.

Of course, they (the same co-op) also wanted 
to sell it at the same time that they were all worried, and have "an exclusive", meaning they 
wanted to be the only source of the product in 
the entire country. I told them at the time that
I cannot offer such "exclusives", as they
violate US law (The Robinson-Pattman Act).
The president guy got all huffy about it,
but I told him then that we follow the law,
no matter how unhappy he might be about that.

So, the co-op sells Butyric, and that's a problem,
as use of Butyric renders all honey harvested
_unfit for human consumtion_ under US law, 
as detailed here:
http://www.bee-quick.com/revoked.html 

So, I'm not surprised that the co-op decided to 
push the product they sell at a profit when they 
can't have "an exclusive" on mine, and I'm not 
surprised that they have some sort of "scare 
tactics" worked up from a case where someone 
poured an entire bottle down into a hive, or 
something.

To be honest, one co-op in Canada is not
a big deal for me, as Canada has such a fast 
season that little or no effort is required to 
get the bees out of the supers anyway. By the 
time you get around to harvesting, the bees are 
often clustered in loose clusters down in the 
brood chambers anyway. Just lift off the supers,
and walk away with them - what could be easier?

There are a few guys in Alberta that pull honey
multiple times per season, and they have good
enough winds out on those plains that they simply 
set the supers on edge, and let nature be their 
"bee blower".

> Or perhaps you should leave your promotion to 
> the magaizines and bee supply vendors.

I have never "promoted", I merely try to offer
customer support _when it is requested_.
This thread started with a reasonable question, 
and I have done my best to answer all questions 
raised, even when voiced in a hostile tone, as 
your was.

Oh, and stop dumping your honey on the US market,
will ya? Remember what happened with softwood
timber, and learn from their errors.









[ September 29, 2006, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: Jim Fischer ]


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

>as use of Butyric renders all honey harvested unfit for human consumtion

>> When you contacted the govenrment...

>I have done no such thing. It is not my place to point out the obvious to the government.

Your apathy is truly pitifal. How can you stand idly by and permit such horror to continue. You ought to be ashamed....


>Your promoting your product here, on a public fourm. Your also slaging your compeditors here, on a public fourm.

perzactly!


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Your apathy is truly pitifal. How can you stand 
> idly by and permit such horror to continue. You 
> ought to be ashamed....

Ah, satire. Well, your "apathy" apparently 
includes not even reading the newspaper.

Beekeepers should be happy that their apiaries
have not been strip-mined for coal given the 
ongoing and deliberate and ever-increasing 
restrictions placed by the administration on the
EPA's ability to enforce any of the laws that 
are on the books now. Here's the latest example:
http://www.startribune.com/10107/story/709197.html

> Your promoting your product here

As I said, I have never started a thread, but
merely *answered beekeeper's questions*.
That's "tech support". I've even given 
specific views based upon my experience with
bee escapes (cones work best of all, triangles
work better than Porter escapes) and blowers
(get a high-CFM one, not a high-velocity one)
so I am _also_ openly "promoting" alternatives 
to the product you accuse me of promoting.

Why the heck would I do that, if what you
claim was even close to true?

You just don't get it - I really don't give a 
flying duck if anyone buys the stuff or not. 
I made the stuff for my Dad, and he has a 
lifetime supply assured. Anyone who wants some, 
can have some. Anyone else, well to each his own.
It saves a lot of people a lot of time, effort,
and trouble, especially the suburban beekeeper
who would rather not make a "scene", and scare
the neighbors, and the older beekeeper, who
wants to lift as little as possible, wearing
the minimum protective gear.

> Your also slaging your compeditors here

No, you are just doing what you always do,
jumping on any opportunity to argue, disagree 
and be disagreeable, ridicule, and so on. 
You like a spirited debate, so you start them
with me and others whenever you can. Hey,
everyone needs a hobby, who am I to question?









Making people aware of the implications of 
using a substance with *revoked* EPA 
approval, and no FDA approval at all is 
simply making people aware of the facts. 
Exactly what part of 
"_no food use of Butyric Anhydride is allowed__"_ 
is unclear to you?

Food, once adulterated with non-food-grade,
pesticide chemicals, simply may not be sold
"for human consumption". Butyric may be
used in/with/on animal feed, and is, but may
not be used in connection with human food.
Attempts to remove evidence of the contamination 
(such as by "airing out the supers" or heating up
the honey to volatilize the Butyric residues) 
is overt fraud, in that any attempt to remove 
evidence of contamination is an even worse
offense under the regulations.

If you want to frame that as "slagging", go
right ahead, but I see it as nothing more 
than providing fair warning, as at some point,
administrations will change, and the EPA and
FDA might just go back to actually regulating
things like "pesticides in food", even if the
levels are less-than-fatal.


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## Hillside (Jul 12, 2004)

> Oh, gee.. I remember now... I have BEES, and they make HONEY... maybe I should take some
> off now that the chills of fall are upon us.


Since I believe this statement was directed at least partly at me, I'll have to say in my area harvesting in fall is typical. The season is short. You guys down there in the near tropics may have a harvestable amount in June or July, but here, things are really just getting going at that time. I know there are folks even farther north than me who are able to pull earlier, but they are out on the plains with good pasture -- I tend to be surrounded by corn and, increasingly, suburban weedless lawns. The bees do the best they can.

BQ works pretty well for me. It's not perfect, but nothing is. Maybe down there in the near tropics it works even better. That's good.

I'm surprised to hear that the product has been "black balled" by a packer. If they have run tests and found contaminants, it would be nice to know what those nasty contaminants are. Or are the packer's test proprietary?

If there is something that is nasty, ie. not acceptable for food use, I may decide I have to go back to using escape boards. But Jim assures us that is not the case, and I prefer using BQ when possible.

I don't think Jim is going to give up the formula, so I'll have to rely on other sources of information when they're available. If the packer found a contaminant, they must know what the contaminant is.


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> If they have run tests and found contaminants, 
> it would be nice to know what those nasty 
> contaminants are. Or are the packer's test 
> proprietary?

More to the point, if this happened, dontcha
think I would have gotten a very angry e-mail,
letter or phone call from a beekeeper in
Canada? 

Even more to the point, if any orders at all
for serious-sized containers (gallon jugs,
5-gallon pails) had gone to Canadians, dontcha 
think I would have heard about it, so I could 
rush the dealer some of my limited supply of 
bilingual labels and instruction sheets, so as 
to comply with the Canadian custom of having 
everything in both English and French?

So my guess is that what we have here is a
co-op that buys honey from its members, and
is very concerned for the POTENTIAL of a 
problem, and would rather that their members
not use any repellents at all. Good for them.

> If there is something that is nasty, ie. not 
> acceptable for food use

Certainly not. Everything is 100% food-grade
and "GRAS" ("Generally Recognized As Safe" in
food). We are certified for use in certified
Organic beekeeping operations in Hawaii
(the only place we have found any actual
organic-certified beekeepers who were interested
in using the product) and are working on getting
"USDA Organic" certification of the bottling 
plant and the handling procedures, so we can 
offer a 100% food-grade, 100% "GRAS" *AND*
100% USDA Certified Organic version. (But 
it will cost more, as organic ingredients are
not cheap at all.)

Why get the green dot on the label?
Does anyone need the USDA Organic version?
No, not at all. 
We are doing it _just because we can_.


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## Ann (Feb 18, 2006)

For what it's worth, we used Bee Quick today, in low 60 degree weather, to pull our supers. It worked as I thought it would, there were a few stragglers in there we used a leaf blower on. Thank you, Jim, for a pleasant smelling product that works! And no, Jim didn't pay me to post this


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## Dick Allen (Sep 4, 2004)

OK, now that's what I've been trying to find out. Lower temperatures than that for anyone using Bee Quick? Thanks much Ann! 

(He didn't pay you??? He's paid me to keep this thread going so he can get free advertising.)


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

>>>I made the stuff for my Dad, and he has a 
lifetime supply assured. Anyone who wants some, 
can have some. Anyone else, well to each his own.<<<

Jim, all I ask is that if you ever decide to stop producing your fine product, that you let me know ahead so that we can purchace a few 55 gallon lots ahead.
Pulling honey without Fischer's Bee Quick is unimaginable out here.



[ October 01, 2006, 12:25 AM: Message edited by: HarryVanderpool ]


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

<<Of course, a reasonable man would send 
an e-mail to the vendor, rather than hoping that
the vendor will see a posting to some obscure
message board, and take the time to use the
kludgy web-based text entry screen to reply.>>

Of course, a reasonable vendor would send 
an e-mail to the man, rather than hoping that
the man will see a posting to some obscure
message board, and take the time to use the
kludgy web-based text entry screen to reply.

Couldn't resist . . .


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## longarm (Apr 21, 2006)

uh.. whatever.. YES it works!


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Jim, I assume you are financially independant? Kudo's to you for donating the profits to bee research. What made you decide to do this and is the money aimed at any particular area of research?

I have not used Bee Quick mainly because we bought the economy size bee go-in a can- a couple of years back and have finally used it up this year. It is very effective but the odor literally burns the eyes, permeates everything it gets near or touches and I believe is highly flammable. 

A few things we do as a rule. The 1st.is paint the aluminum tops of our fume boards black to absorb sunlight, we run 3 fume boards ( 2 people pulling), and except for a few straggler supers at the end of the season schedule our work on sunny days to promote efficiency. It sounds like beekeepers here are using considerably more bee quick than I do bee go. I can pull a couple hundred honey supers on a pint of bee go. It sounds like the rate of bee-exit is about the same for both on a sunny day. We just use a blower on days when fumigant isn't as effective. I'd have to try it and see if the amount I hear people using is effective for a small commericial operation? I'd love to have a fumigant the smells good?


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## Jim Fischer (Jan 5, 2001)

> Jim, I assume you are financially independant?

Heck no. I have to hustle just like anyone else.
I just refuse to "make money" off other beekeepers.

Need a network designed, fixed or managed?
I could use the money.

> What made you decide to do this and is the money 
> aimed at any particular area of research?

The EAS committee that awards the grants decides
which project proposals get funded. I can't sit
on the committee, as it would be awkward to both
give money and offer opinions about what should
be funded.

> It sounds like beekeepers here are using 
> considerably more bee quick than I do bee go.

Here's the best way I can describe the usual performance we expect:
http://bee-quick.com/much.html


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## Joel (Mar 3, 2005)

Jim, Thanks for the info on the pump sprayer. Doesn't sound like it does require any more than bee go. Look forward to trying it next spring when we pull the South Carolina honey! I sure will miss the that bee-go smell!


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