# 5 Frame Medium Trap



## Arlo

Just put out a few traps last weekend still early here, my question is they are 5-Frame Mediums with drawn comb and using Swarm Commander as lure what are the odds that they will use this size box?

Thanks


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## Rader Sidetrack

I don't know how to calculate what the 'odds' are that your trap will be a sucess. But be aware that a 5 frame medium box is about 16 liters in volume. That is considerably smaller than the 40 liters that Tom Seeley recommends as an optimum trap size. 

You can read Seeley's study here: https://ecommons.cornell.edu/bitstream/handle/1813/2653/Bait Hives for Honey Bees.pdf


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## Steve in PA

I put out several traps that were 5 frame deep nuc boxes last year. A few of them had scouts crawling all over them for a few days then...nothing. After consulting with several members here the general thought was they were too small.

You may have luck but I would guess odds are against your small box.


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## JWChesnut

Too small. You will have good luck with a double stack 5 frame box. I only put frames in the top box and leave the bottom box wide open. You can connect the two boxes with a batten board screwed diagonally on the long side.


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## D Coates

Arlo said:


> Just put out a few traps last weekend still early here, my question is they are 5-Frame Mediums with drawn comb and using Swarm Commander as lure what are the odds that they will use this size box?
> 
> Thanks


Arlo, I'm spitting distance from you and from experience 5 frame mediums are too small. I was using 5 frame deeps and had very little success. From what I've read 7-8 frame deeps are the optimal size. I'm trying "retired" 10 frame deeps with a couple draw wonky frames mixed with undrawn frames this year. Get your traps out ASAP no matter what. I was in 15 of my hives yesterday and more than a few were in the various stages of swarming. One them even had capped queen cells. I'll split that hive today over lunch.


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## squarepeg

D Coates said:


> I was using 5 frame deeps and had very little success.


my experience as well last year. this year i went to 5 over 5 deep and have already caught one.

i set it up with one frame of empty comb in the top box, flanked with foundationless frames, with plastic foundation frames on the outsides. i left the bottom box empty.

the lure was lemongrass oil and my own queen juice.


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## Michael Bush

They are kind of small. They may work, but as OD Frank says, you can catch a small swarm in a big trap but you can't catch a big swarm in a small trap... I have better luck with five frame deeps with medium frames in them, or better yet, ten frame deeps with medium frames in them. If I were making them for the job, I'd probably buy one by twelves and make them five or six frames wide and put medium frames in them (I run medium frames in my hives, obviously). That way they hang in the tree nicer than the ten frame wide ones...


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## odfrank

I am a believer in larger brood frames in both my hives and traps. I tried medium depth trap frames during my winebox phase, and feel they were not as attractive to swarms. This year, my 50+ year old four frame deep nuc boxes have been winning out next to larger traps. 

This was years ago during my winebox and fishbox phase, the bees eat through the bottom of the fish boxes and the bees swarm out the hole and sting during pickup, the medium depth wineboxes didn't catch much:



This years four frame deep catches, brought this one home last night, caught 4/2:



This was one of the earliest into this box sitting with 40 larger traps:


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## odfrank

In this picture you see a swarm choosing a four deep frame box sitting between an eight deep frame brown box and an eight Jumbo depth frame green box. So as bait hives go, does size matter?


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## odfrank

And just so CHARLIE KNOWS and can accuse me of BRAGGING!!!!.....I am up to 25 now this year ALREADY! Two this week that hung on the outside of the trap, never had that before in decades of trapping, one with drone layers or bum queen, and one with EFB. Bob Whisperer in San Jose has filled four traps and Whisperer Roberto in Redwood City has filled three, two of which are Warres and one Jumbo eight frame.


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## Arlo

Thanks everyone, I went ahead and built some 5 frame deeps today after work (Used D. Coates plans) very easy to build so will swap out the mediums with the deeps but like Michael said I am going to use medium frames and see how that works.


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## challenger

I will be putting out traps # 28,29 & 30 tomorrow. All are recycled equipment and most are the older deeps that needed some repairs. Bad losses this year so I am hoping for a little rebound with these traps. The ones that are not originally 10 frame deeps are medium 10 frame honey supers that were declining. I cut a few in half and fastened to another to make the same depth as my deep boxes.
All have 10 frames with 8 empty/strips and 2 old brood comb. I put a few out with LGO in some melted beeswax in addition to the old brood comb.
I always read the 10 frame deep is the right size so that's what I am using. I've caught several in past years but this is the first time I am putting out this many traps. I have yet to hear of the first swarm so far this year but I am certain it will be any day.
Good luck.


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## laketrout

I'm going try a 10 frame medium ratchet strapped to a 3'' shim I end up pretty close to the same dimensions of a deep , I have all medium equipment this way I have more supers if I run short during a flow and if I catch a swarm I can just take the medium and set it on a bottom board in the beeyard .The shim has a floor and entrance built in . This way the box's can serve double duty instead of swarm box's that sit in the shed most of the year .


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## Mr.Beeman

Double the 5 frame mediums and you'll bee fine.


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## mcon672

ODFrank, how many traps do you have out? How long have they been out this year to catch 25 already?


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## odfrank

mcon672 said:


> ODFrank, how many traps do you have out? How long have they been out this year to catch 25 already?


Under 50, first catches 2/10, 2/25, three weeks early this year. Found #26 yesterday, but at least three are bum, which is usually the case, 10-15% queenless or EFB.
My 2016 Arsenal, plus deadouts set up on stands:


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## crmauch

If (according to Seeley) 40 liters is close to the ideal (1.41 cu ft. OR 2441 cu in.) this is how the various standard boxes break out:

Standard Deep: 2609 cu in or 42.7 liters
Standard Medium: 1796 cu in or 29.42 liters
Standard Shallow: 1547 cu in or 26.26 liters
5 frame Deep: 1371 cu in or 22.46 liters
8 Frame Deep: 2167 cu in or 35.50 liters


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## odfrank

I question the validity of all bee gurus set dogmas when my daily experience indicates otherwise. I have posted my own two times this year when swarms chose smaller boxes right next to larger boxes. Is it the size that matters the most or the contents or the combination? Not all the swarms I catch seem to care about Seeleys ideal size..


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## tanksbees

odfrank said:


> I question the validity of all bee gurus set dogmas when my daily experience indicates otherwise. I have posted my own two times this year when swarms chose smaller boxes right next to larger boxes. Is it the size that matters the most or the contents or the combination? Not all the swarms I catch seem to care about Seeleys ideal size..


Oliver,
I have noticed that a single 5 frame nuc in a location with no other boxes nearby has difficulty attracting a "critical mass" of scouts, whereas a larger box seems to have a much higher chance of that happening.

However, a stack of 5 frame nucs, or a 5 frame nuc near other larger boxes has an excellent chance of catching a swarm, and in several cases I have seen, bees have chosen a nuc over a nearby larger box.

Perhaps when a number of cavities are very close to one another, it tricks the bees into thinking they have good support for one site instead of mediocre support for multiple sites.

It seems to me, that the more cavities scouts find in an area, even if they are not exactly "right", the more likely they are to move in to SOMETHING in that area. And once they have picked the direction and distance to swarm to and are on the move, any suitable box in the vicinity could become their destination. 

I have seen a photos where you have a whole pile of equipment sitting out, and in one post you showed a swarm moving into multiple nucs - that would indicate they aren't too smart about exactly which cavity where they end up in. I have also seen confusion when they end up on a stack of equipment and can't immediately figure out which box to go into. 

Seeley mentioned that only 5% of the bees - the scout bees - know where they are going and direct the swarm. So if 95% of the bees are ignorant, it seems very plausible they randomly end up in a very nearby nuc instead of the deep sitting a few feet away.

So maybe the larger box helps attract them to the area, but the small box is chosen at random. Could explain why they sometimes move into a nuc when a better hive is close by. One swarm in my yard moved into a stack of car tires with a board on top of them instead of a nearby stack of nucs and supers. I never saw any scouts near those car tires, but I did see plenty cleaning out the nucs. Only way they could have ended up their is if the final cavity choice was random, because it was a terrible cavity.


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## Charlie B

Tank and Ollie should write a rival book to Seeley's


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## whiskers

Ollie-
In post #10 the octagonal hive is sitting on a bucket. Is the bucket part of the hive's volume or just being used as a stand?
Bill


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## odfrank

whiskers said:


> Ollie-
> In post #10 the octagonal hive is sitting on a bucket. Is the bucket part of the hive's volume or just being used as a stand?
> Bill



stand


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## odfrank

Charlie B said:


> Tank and Ollie should write a rival book to Seeley's


,
Charlie, since you are one to believe and act upon everything you read on the internet...here is a good one for you. 
According to this expert, you should only shower twice a week. Your wife will love you that much more. But please keep your distance from me.

https://www.yahoo.com/beauty/how-many-times-a-week-should-you-shower-the-160153930.html


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## Arlo

Well checked on one of my new traps today after work 5 frame deep with 1 deep old brood frame, 2 med. drawn comb and 2 med. foundation only and I have lots of bees flying around and going into the box. They might just be robbing what little honey are in the comb but maybe I'll get lucky and someone will move in. It is baited with Swarm Commander


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## Troy

Sometimes they will keep inspecting the bait hive for days before they decide to move in. Just check it right at sunset. if most of the bees you see are leaving and none are returning - they haven't moved in yet. If most of the bees are returning to the box, then they have moved in.

Also, I've never seen the inspector's with pollen in their baskets. If you see returning bees with pollen, then they have brood in there already.


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## Shazam

Frank,

I'm putting together some wine crates as nucs rather than bait traps. Did you use the thin lid that comes with the winecrate, or do you fab a quick and dirty migratory top? I'm planning to do the latter, but curious if the lid is sufficient.

(Also planning to use a bit of aluminum screening to provide ventilation on the bottom (which I've done for some improvised/short use screened bottom boards in the past.)


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## odfrank

Shazam said:


> Frank,I'm putting together some wine crates as nucs rather than bait traps. Did you use the thin lid that comes with the winecrate, or do you fab a quick and dirty migratory top? I'm planning to do the latter, but curious if the lid is sufficient.(Also planning to use a bit of aluminum screening to provide ventilation on the bottom (which I've done for some improvised/short use screened bottom boards in the past.)


You are making two major mistakes.
#1 You are using wine crates. You will put as much time into making them as you would using something more durable. Wine boxes only hold up a few years, specially the lids. 

#2 Bait boxes should not have screened bottoms.

You are welcome to come pick up the ones I know longer use.


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## Shazam

Going to use them for nucs, not bait boxes, and the lids were the issue I was concerned with I admit.

I'd totally come pick up your boxes. I may still for locals. But in this case I'm building the nuc boxes on east coast for family members who I'm helping out with hives. I suppose I could just use a medium, but hmm. Guess I should ponder.


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## odfrank

I quit using wine boxes because between the time I set them out and picked them up full, the wood had warped to the degree that they leaked bees. The thin wood warps from exposure to the elements, fog and rain. Second hand boxes and budget boxes can be picked up at a price reasonable enough in the small quantities that we use that their cost will not materially affect our kids inheritance. My time is worth money. Time is money wasted on making bee equipment if it doesn't give you many years of service.

When I go out to pick up full bait boxes, I don't want to suit up and get stung by mad bees. I want to close the disc and be gone. Nuc boxes will sit out for months, need to be winter durable and last even less time.


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## Arlo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=229zMdYKNBE&feature=youtu.be 

Had some visitors again today.


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## Weallneedbees

I had two 10 frame deeps next to each other for two weeks, set a four frame deep in between and caught a swarm in two days.


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