# Small hives, swarming, and splits



## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

This study discusses the effects of small hive cavities and swarming on varroa levels in feral colonies: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0150362
The article points toward using splits as a method of managing varroa. There are also interesting observations in the study concerning the effects of robbing on varroa levels.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Good read. Couple of questions (thinking loud)

1. I see lot of talk about honey production per hive. But how about "collective" honey harvest between (for e.g) 10 small colonies vs 5 large colonies ? Do they come to close to each other or drastically different ? 

2. The article suggests splitting or brood break in large colonies. Elsewhere it is mentioned that varroa thats not reproducing can live up to 6 months on the bee. Does that varroa load continue to spread virus and go back to reproducing once brood break is over (which is typically about a month at max) ? Unless, bees in general get rid of phoretic mites and/or most damage is caused by varroa while its inside the cell rather than outside. On a side note, is there any research on "infectability" (is that a word?) of varroa in its various life stages.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

With regard to your first comment, I approach productivity from that perspective (collective honey harvest) in the sense that if I want more honey, I build more hives. That works for me because I use culled cedar and enjoy building my own equipment. The economics are far different for many other people. I also use all 8 frame medium equipment which lends itself to smaller hives generally and dealing in fractions and splits. But the thought goes that it's not the size itself but the brood break that matters, and that occurs with supercedure, splits, or swarms. Or dearths without feeding.

There is an efficiency of scale for bees, such that production "per bee" is higher in larger colonies. But not if the larger colony is dead from parasitic mite syndrome. I tend to look not at production per bee, but rather at production per man hour for the things that I enjoy less. Also, things are different where you are approaching the maximum carrying capacity of the available forage. I think that is a bigger factor than is recognized in many areas with relatively high concentrations of hives.

With regard to your second item, the story may be in the relative life cycles and build up periods of bees vs. varroa mites and the effect of brood breaks on the ratio of bees to mites in the hive. As one friend of mine would say, "If it works, does it matter." But that doesn't work for us more curious mates.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

David, I like your thought process on honey production. As a first year backyard beek, with full time day job, I dont need to get 100lb of honey from a hive, but prefer for bees that live without me spending tons of time and money on them. It will be more than enough for our family if I get 10lb per hive without having to buy treatments, sugar & pollen to feed etc. I am desperately looking for such bees


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

DaisyNJ said:


> David, I like your thought process on honey production. As a first year backyard beek, with full time day job, I dont need to get 100lb of honey from a hive, but prefer for bees that live without me spending tons of time and money on them. It will be more than enough for our family if I get 10lb per hive without having to buy treatments, sugar & pollen to feed etc. I am desperately looking for such bees


That word "tons" gets me into trouble all the time. Example: Man with bees on his restaurant roof, one hive, asks me "how are the bees doing?" constantly like I'm going to give him some kind of damage report or something. I mistakenly said "there's tons of honey in the hive right now" and he had it sold before I could even climb off the roof. Flash forward four weeks and it's dearth. Bees started eating the honey and he's freaking out over where that TON of honey went.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

aunt betty said:


> That word "tons" gets me into trouble all the time. Example: Man with bees on his restaurant roof, one hive, asks me "how are the bees doing?" constantly like I'm going to give him some kind of damage report or something. I mistakenly said "there's tons of honey in the hive right now" and he had it sold before I could even climb off the roof. Flash forward four weeks and it's dearth. Bees started eating the honey and he's freaking out over where that TON of honey went.


 you are right, it gets me in trouble too..vague & unquantified expression


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Splitting and brood brake as a varroa control method are working as a tool to help bees. But can they be a method with which TF beekeeping is possible without genetically, even somewhat, varroa resistant bees. This is a very basic question.

Theoretically you cannot manage TF beekeeping by just splitting the hives. Broodbrake as a method for varroa control is even worse, because no new "reserve" hives are made. 
Making a nuc just hampers the increase of mite population. The number of mites remains the same or is getting slightly down, but will start rising after one month when the brood brake is over or the new queen in the nuc starts laying.

In practise what happens is that some nucs get very low numbers of mites, by change. These lucky ones manage to live much longer. And because there are in the starting point, when beekeeper becomes "TF", some hives with very low mite numbers, the "illusion" of TF beekeeping will continue even longer. There are on this forum beekeepers with just 2-3 years of TF beekeeping and they are giving advise to others all the time. This is kind of dangerous to me.

In practise what also happens mites move from hives which have no brood to hives with brood and this makes the illusion of "TF" beekeeping stronger because the distribution of mites becomes even more uneven. 

It is another story what happens in the long run. In the long run, say 10 years, only stronger more resistant bees will be left. Whether beekeeper is capable to get this far is up to the original bee material, climate and how densely populated (by bees) the area is. In the end you have varroa resistant bees, but it takes time. Varroa resistant bees are varroa resistant where ever they are taken. It is not a matter of region.

I think small hives can help bees in varroa management. They can take better care of brood, react to mite problems and use their instincts for brood removal.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Juhani Lunden said:


> In the long run, say 10 years, only stronger more resistant bees will be left.


I like and appreciate your post. I live in an area that appears to have more unmanaged, feral bee colonies than managed colonies. I picked up a swarm and bid a separate cutout yesterday. I am doing yet a different cutout tomorrow afternoon. I've turned down over the phone at least two other cutouts in the last three days. This is September. 

Those unmanaged hives are smaller and more numerous than the managed hives in this area, and they are casting swarms at a higher rate than the managed colonies are. They have been doing this for more than ten years. I have 30 or so hives today. I could have 90 by this time next year if I wanted to build the boxes. Some of those hives are as tall as I am right now, and I will be harvesting them for the third time this year in a month and a half. I don't feed syrup, and I don't treat. Folks can call it whatever they want, qualify it however they want, and criticize it as much as they want. This will play out over the next twenty years, and some folks will be right and some folks will be wrong. Can't stop the rain.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Varroa resistant bees are varroa resistant where ever they are taken. It is not a matter of region.


There is evidence that suggests that some adaptation traits are very much region specific. Geographically, the defenses bees have adapted to thwart mites and related viruses can vary from one location to the next. Is there one trait or traits in the identified set that you feel makes your statement true?


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

In my diary I explain the example when I 2009 posted queens to Central Europe(distance 1500km). They were found varroa resistant.
I got queens from a TF beekeeper in Finland. They are varroa resistant.
I have understood that Squarepeg got queens/hives from FusionPower and they are varroa resistant.

Same can I ask you: to prove your statement you have to prove that the bees were resistant in their home region and then that they were not performing equally in the new place. Have you got examples? Notice that to prove that the bees were resistant in their home region it is not enough that "the beekeeper said so". There are too many saying so.

(In fact this whole TF forum is full of beekeepers saying that their bees are varroa resistant, but nobody else can verify that.)


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Very good, Juhani, my thoughts exactly.



> I think small hives can help bees in varroa management. They can take better care of brood, react to mite problems and use their instincts for brood removal.


I don´t believe resistant queen`s descendants stay resistant when being open mated. But I believe in selecting out of those and using the genes.
I don`t believe resistant queen`s colonies stay resistant if the queen is not adapted to environment. The first and second wintering will tell. 

I may be a 2-3 year beekeeper but my friends are experienced and I listen to them. I bought so called "resistant" bee colonies with queens but after one year one hive with original queen died of a most virulent local virus and one original queen is not adapting to my location. The descendants are.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

It was an open ended question to start a discussion. Generally, I ask questions or propose ideas. Often, I have no stake in the ideas I propose. I'm not married to my ideas, I just like starting dialog. Ultimately, I'm curious. Curiosity killed the cat, right?
To the point: if there is a truly catch-all resistant bee, I don't understand why there would be variation within European honey bee defense adaptations from region to region. It would make sense for traits to be more universal if region, or environmental factors weren't at play. I was hoping for an answer.

Regarding my bees, I am hopeful that there is something to what I'm seeing after three years and no losses. This year appears to be ending on a high note, but only time will tell about next year and beyond. I can say that I like what I've seen so far. That could change tomorrow, I make no claims. I have sent some of my bees outside of my area for a test, but my guess is that they will fare about as well as any bee in his area. I will be happily surprised if that turns out not to be the case. The track record for resistant lines shipped to certain areas of the country here in the US has not been the greatest. 

I am glad your bees are having good success outside your area. Again, I'm not sure I could show the determination you have shown given your circumstances.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Nordak said:


> To the point: if there is a truly catch-all resistant bee, I don't understand why there would be variation within European honey bee defense adaptations from region to region. It would make sense for traits to be more universal if region, or environmental factors weren't at play.


Lots of variation is needed in all honeybees in all qualities. Lots of variation of varroa resistance mechanisms too. I only said that if some bees have one type of mechanism, this will most propably work somewhere else, according to my experience. This does not rule out that there are many more mechanisms, which work equally well taken to other regions.

I did not want to insult, and apologize if I did. I´m just so fed up with this regional stuff and other myths on this TF forum (other myths: no feeding, small cells, right placement of cells, regression, etc.).


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Juhani Lunden said:


> I only said that if some bees have one type of mechanism, this will most propably work somewhere else, according to my experience. This does not rule out that there are many more mechanisms, which work equally well taken to other regions.


Thanks, that makes sense. This would then measure success on figuring out what works and where, which is kind of what I was getting at in terms of area. 

No offense taken. I believe the regional advice that many offer, myself included, may be sound in the situation here in the US as far as bees go, as a lot of the selection work has been done for us by existing feral populations. That's not to say one couldn't be successful by bringing in outside genetics. I'm sure they could be given the right circumstances. Not sure if that's what you meant or not. 

No feeding is one I follow, but I'm not absolutely opposed to feeding if need be. My bees will break brood cycle during a dearth. If I were to feed them, they would unnaturally rear brood which could cause an imbalance in mite levels later in the year. I have brought outside bees in that have been brood heavy in summer and have seen the results of higher mite counts. They survived two winters, even with signs of DWV and high mite levels. At this point, they are 3rd and 4th generation daughters and have become more like the locals. Again, these are just observations, not absolutes. I still have a lot to learn, and look forward to a lifetime of it if possible.

Have you updated the journal lately? I found your observations very interesting. Looking forward to more in the future.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Guerilla beekeeping:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAdfkL8cd6g&list=PLClbu5XOkTdndrqYnwgw7UxBqNd_bCbRR


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