# epepen



## jjohnsind (Apr 24, 2014)

I had a friend that had a prescription get mine for me. A word of warning - they're $300.00 (and they expire)! If you have a friend that has a prescription and REALLY good insurance, you might be able to get it cheaper.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I went to an epi pen work shop at the local bee club ($20) that taught you how to use one and recognize the symptoms. She wrote out a script on what almost looked like a scrap of paper. I then went to the epi pen website and printed a coupon for the zero balance. My wife took it to the pharmacy with much skepticism and they gave us a two pack without charge. Attached is the offer they keep sending me because they know mine have been expired for some time.
http://e.mylanspecialty.com/US_DTC_...ckId=6727282c49b74e2d9066e4e78b2bcb41#Savings


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Never thought about using the internet. I kind of figured in an emergency you rushed the "victim" to the pharmacy and dared them to refuse to sell you one. I'm betting the big name brand phamacy that has a shop on every corner (you know the name) would simply call an ambulance for you.
All I see is the zero co-pay ad and can't find a price on the thing. 
I'll look around.Oh...my goodness 

Just learned a few things.
Epinephrine...remember when you could buy it in pills? 
http://inthesetimes.com/article/16951/anaphylactic_sticker_shock

OUCH! HOW MUCH!?!?!?!
I'm so glad I can safely get stung by a bee.


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## jjohnsind (Apr 24, 2014)

FYI, the friend I got mine from is so deathly allergic that he has to carry one with him everywhere he goes. He told me (when we first met & fished together) exactly where he stored his and that I had 5 MINUTES to get the injection in him if he ever got stung. My guess is anybody this allergic would know to carry one at all times, but God forbid, I ever have a guest over that is this bad and doesn't know it - that's why I chose to have one around (my hives are at my house).


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## maynard (Jul 7, 2014)

Your primary care physician should have no problem writing you a script for it. If they do, go see somebody else.

Here's a link for the copay assistance program.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

aunt betty said:


> If I had a dollar for every time someone told me that "you need to carry one of those"...


...You would need about 200 or so people telling you that to pay for one.

Wayne


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Sure I can get a scrip but when some second party is there gasping for air do you think it would be wise to just administer and hope everything turns out ok? Oh **** no! 
There are laws that say no. If you are stung by a bee or what you thought was a bee and think you need medical attention go find a beekeeper? No again. 

I started this silly thread to point out how silly it is to suggest that I carry "the cure" for someone else. Sorry if it got too silly on us.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

a friend of mines brother, who works in medicine said " it is illegal to give any medicine that has your name on it to anyone else" he said if your epipen has your name on it you are in violation of the law if you use it on someone else. so it sort of puts you in a no win situation if you have one and need it for someone else:scratch:


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## kingd (Oct 31, 2013)

aunt betty said:


> Sure I can get a scrip but when some second party is there gasping for air do you think it would be wise to just administer and hope everything turns out ok? Oh **** no!
> There are laws that say no. If you are stung by a bee or what you thought was a bee and think you need medical attention go find a beekeeper? No again.
> 
> I started this silly thread to point out how silly it is to suggest that I carry "the cure" for someone else. Sorry if it got too silly on us.


I would be afraid that "the cure" would be the thing that killed them.

I did get a perscription after the Doctor found out I mess with bees alot,never had a problem but he kinda freaked out about it saying you never know when it will happen...Good thing my insurance paid for it in full.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

wildbranch2007 said:


> a friend of mines brother, who works in medicine said " it is illegal to give any medicine that has your name on it to anyone else" he said if your epipen has your name on it you are in violation of the law if you use it on someone else. so it sort of puts you in a no win situation if you have one and need it for someone else:scratch:


My point exactly.
I doubt anyone has ever died from epinephrine. It is fake adrynaline. 
No wonder they want to use it to make...that stuff and that is why it is so hard to get, even if you are dying.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

I don't keep an Epi-pen. Don't intend to unless I have to. I do keep on hand liquid Benadryl, just in case "my hay fever flares up".


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## Rxmaker (Jul 6, 2011)

Jjohnsind: It is illegal under Federal law for your friend to give/transfer his prescription to you and most if all states have statutes covering the same. The more strict Federal law trumps most state laws. Next, if your friend used any kind of insurance plan to pay for a portion or all he is guilty of insurance fraud and you are an accessory. If he used medicare or Medicaid to fund the prescription now both of you are on the hook for Medicare Fraud and the Federal Gov takes a very dim view of that. In short, your friend is in a world of hurt and you are a close second. I see or hear of this every day I work.

Aunt Betty: Adrenaline is epinephrine. There is NO fake. Yes people can die from to little or too much epinephrine. It is an EpiPen or EpiPen Jr.

Fellow Beeks. This thread surfaces about every 3 months or so. Please do your own research for your own situation. I just had to pipe up as there has been so much mis-information, totally false information, and illegal suggestions.

Peter W. 
Registered Pharmacist
Montana


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

EpiPens are expensive, the cheapest I've seen are about $190 for two if you don't have any insurance coverage. To acquire them at this price you must get a coupon from GoodRx LINK and type "adrenaclick" into the box which says "Find The Lowest Price", and put your zip code or City in also. Next screen on the left above "Adrenaclick" click on "epinephrine (generic)" and click "2 auto-injectors of 0.3mg" and "1 package" (2 injectors). Look for the lowest price in your area, and print out the coupon. The product is made by Lineage Therapeutics and in my area a box of two is about $190 at Walgreens which is below what I can purchase it wholesale. Of course you will need a prescription from a physician which shouldn't be a problem. The injectors are easy to use and would be invaluable if really needed.


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## jjohnsind (Apr 24, 2014)

Rxmaker. Thanks for the clarifications. I still feel better having one, but I guess I can't (shouldn't) use it for others. No insurance fraud BTW - I paid $300.00. I also heard that any doctor will freely give a prescription for an epi pen - is this not correct?


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## Rxmaker (Jul 6, 2011)

jjohnsind:
Your Dr can write you a prescription for any legal pharmaceutical(s) as long as he/she has a patient-provider relationship. Usually where people go foul is how they handle it after that. I carry Benadryl, Pepcid, and both adult and Jr EpiPen with my at all times. I usually do not have any reaction to stings but I do not know about my grandkids or other family. Being a former firefighter/EMT I have used the pen but EMS was on the way. If someone feels they need to use the EpiPen they should have EMS on the way, talking to EMS or be on the way to the nearest Urgent Care. If it does not work or works slowly you could be in a world of hurt if you are not already on the way to a higher level of support. This type of shock can take you out faster than you can say Aunt Betty.


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## tim8557 (Feb 6, 2015)

Rxmaker said:


> jjohnsind:
> Your Dr can write you a prescription for any legal pharmaceutical(s) as long as he/she has a patient-provider relationship. Usually where people go foul is how they handle it after that. I carry Benadryl, Pepcid, and both adult and Jr EpiPen with my at all times. I usually do not have any reaction to stings but I do not know about my grandkids or other family. Being a former firefighter/EMT I have used the pen but EMS was on the way. If someone feels they need to use the EpiPen they should have EMS on the way, talking to EMS or be on the way to the nearest Urgent Care. If it does not work or works slowly you could be in a world of hurt if you are not already on the way to a higher level of support. This type of shock can take you out faster than you can say Aunt Betty.


Why the Pepcid?


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## Dave A. (Mar 13, 2015)

tim8557 said:


> Why the Pepcid?


It is also a histamine blocker, blocks a different 'kind'.


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## Rxmaker (Jul 6, 2011)

Benadryl is a H1 antihistamine and Famotidine (Pepcid) is an H2 antihistamine. Taken together for bee stings will work better than either alone. Use the liquid Benadryl as it is adsorbed almost instantly. Benadryl Liquid is 12.5mg/5ml and the adult dose can be 50-75mg so buy the large bottle and do the math. I would not use Claritin or Zyrtec as they take too long to come up to speed.


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## Amasa (May 11, 2015)

Another avenue might be by asking a pharmacist for it. Up here I can either get one under my insurance with a doctors prescription, or pay for it out of pocket if I ask for one OTC from a pharmacy. You might also look into Good Samaritan laws in your jurisdiction on the use of epipens in emergencies if you're overly concerned about using them on others, you just might be exempt from liability if you act in good faith, and they're having a severe allergic reaction.


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## Agis Apiaries (Jul 22, 2014)

Rxmaker said:


> Your Dr can write you a prescription for any legal pharmaceutical(s) as long as he/she has a patient-provider relationship.


You might want to check into the laws before you give that kind of advice. Different states have different laws. For example, Minnesota requires an "in-person examination" that is "adequate to establish a diagnosis and identify underlying conditions and contraindications to treatment" (Miss. Stat. 151.37). Many states have similar laws. Teaching a class at a beekeeping club and then scratching out scripts to everyone really doesn't cut it. Vermont's law states that a prescription or order for a drug is not valid unless it is issued for a legitimate medical purpose...which included a documented patient evaluation (Vt. Admin. Code 20-4-1400).

Secondly, many malpractice insurance companies will not cover a physician who does this. Many physicians have been sued for prescribing without a legitimate physical exam of the patient, lost the suit, and had their insurance company back away and not cover it.

Thirdly, most states have criminal penalties for providing prescription medications to someone else. If it was ok to give it to someone else, you wouldn't need a prescription!

New beekeepers REALLY need to get over the mad craze to buy Epipens. If you are that worried about getting stung, don't keep bees!!! Good Samaritan laws only go so far. They don't cover you for doing something that you weren't trained to do, using medications you aren't authorized to dispense. :no:


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## Paulemar (Aug 28, 2013)

My doctor told me I didn't really need one. My wife's doctor gave her a prescription for them without any hesitation after learning we keep bees. Our insurance is good, for now at least, the cost for a twin pack + practice epipen was $30.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I'd carry one and not tell anybody. Take a first responder / EMT class and *KNOW* the symptoms of anaphylactic shock. If you see someone too far from medical help in life-threatening shock, have a friend distract the onlookers and hit the victim in the leg with it as non-chalant as you can. Walk away and say, "I'll go try to get help." Then come back and keep an eye on the victim until help arrives. Don't admit to having administered the shot, but inform the EMT that somebody else did do it.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Hey! Who wrote that and signed my name?


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

My epi pen isn't for me it's for my guests. My doc has seen bad reactions so he's all for it. $30 with my marginal insurance.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

larryh said:


> My epi pen isn't for me it's for my guests. My doc has seen bad reactions so he's all for it. $30 with my marginal insurance.


The prosecuting attorneys will use this post against you if anything ever goes wrong. It'll be fine. 50/50


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

I'm shaking in my boots


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## Steadfast (Sep 11, 2014)

Sooo, I had a scary close call last Saturday...

After working with my bees... and I pissing them off... (shaking them out if a medium super they refused to drawl out) 
several of them attacked me on my bee suit. I was fine.. normally they give up once you walk away 15 ft or so...

However, Several of them were still on the back of my hood when I took of my bee suit over 100 yards away on my front porch...


Several of them stung me on the very top of my head... It turns out that this is the worst place to get hit because there are so many large blood vessel in your scalp... 

I've been stung many times before and thought nothing of it...

Then my body started itching all over and by the minute the itching became exponentially MUCH worse.... 
With in 5 minutes all of my skin; every inch was on fire with intense itching...

I was in trouble...
Big trouble...

My wife and I looked and looked, but could not find a single Benadryl in our house...

I was in danger....

I ran to my neighbors house with my lips and tongue swelling... he had no Benadryl either.... aaaaaah!

He poured honey over the sting areas... an old bee keeper's trick... it worked locally but my body was getting much worse.

Then as my speech started slurring he threw me into his car... we drove to the nearest gas station to get some Benadryl. 

I had the cashier open the STUPID PACKAGING because my hands where swelling and i could not get to the pills..my knees where buckling... I knew my eyes where dilating because my sight went white. I was holding onto the counter trying not to fall by the time he was able to get 2 out... It was maddening!

My neighbor kept me in his car watching my breathing warning me that if the Benadryl does not work we ARE GOING to the Hospital... I refused to go to the hospital an pay the thousands of dollars they would charge me for the exact same Benadryl I just took...

Thank GOD... The Benadryl started working... the full body itching ebbed... 
My neighbor took me home and my wife put me in bed... 

2 hours later I woke up covered head to toe in a rash and had to Vomit... 
I took a 3rd Benadryl and crawled back into bed shivering like I had a fever.

I'm out of the worst of it... what a messed up day...
If I had not had such a long delay before I took Benadryl I am convinced that I would have been just fine.

Now, I have to go to a Doctor to get tested for my sensitivity level to honey bee allergies today at 4pm and to get an EpiPen scrip.
I down loaded that discount card for $0 co-pay *THANK YOU!*
I will also have liquid Benadryl handy if this happens again...

It turns out that the only explanation which makes sense is that the bee must have injected me directly in one of my scalp's blood vessels for the poison to flood my blood stream and show up all over my body that instantly...

At least now you all know what Anaphylactic Shock feels like as it happens and will move fast if it happens to you...


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Have been stung enough to where the concern is for other people, grandson for instance. 

Little kids scream and the one next door is a girl and loves practicing. It took me a while to get to where I didn't think OMG she got stung every time she screams. I'm worried about that little girl and her mama's reaction when it happens and I pray it don't. 

Got the help I need here. No epipen! Offer benedryl and a quick free ride to the ER and then she's on her own while at same time not admitting any bee guilt.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

People on all sides of the equation over-react about epi pens.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I doubt anyone has ever died from epinephrine.

Here is a list of adverse events: http://www.druglib.com/reported-side-effects/epipen/
Here is a death: http://www.druglib.com/reported-side-effects/epipen/seriousness_death/
And a life threatening event: http://www.druglib.com/reported-side-effects/epipen/seriousness_lifethreatening/

>New beekeepers REALLY need to get over the mad craze to buy Epipens

Agreed.


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## maynard (Jul 7, 2014)

On the other hand, I personally know a beek that has been fine for years, and then got stung inside the nose and went into anaphylactic shock. She saved her life with her epipen. 

Now I know this is anecdotal, and the chances you will ever use your Epipen are small. It happens, and I know more than one beek that it has happened to.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

.....however, if one is actually having a life threatening anaphalactic reaction, a trip the hospital is a better choice than going next door looking for benedryl and taking the time to pour honey on the sting. I'm glad you are OK, and I understand not wanting to go to emergency room....but this should be a lesson in what not to do.

It is easy to read accounts like this and think that a hospital (or an epipen under proper circumstances) is a general overraction. It is not. People do die from honeybee stings, and this is what it looks like when it starts.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> >I doubt anyone has ever died from epinephrine.
> 
> Here is a list of adverse events: http://www.druglib.com/reported-side-effects/epipen/
> Here is a death: http://www.druglib.com/reported-side-effects/epipen/seriousness_death/
> ...


Michael, that is disengenous. What you call "a death" is certainly a death, but not, as you put it in context, necessarily a death caused by an epipen. This is someone that was already having an anaphalatic reaction, and the report you link to reads (in it's entirty):


> Possible Epipen side effects in 22 year old male
> 
> Reported by a lawyer from United States on 2012-06-18
> 
> ...


That's a _possible_ side effect as reported by a lawyer with no context.

The 'Life threatening event" also has no context, but seems to include a mechanical problem with the injector, and resulted in chest pains.

As far as the list of adverse effects here are those of benedryl. http://www.druglib.com/druginfo/benadryl/side-effects_adverse-reactions/


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## Steadfast (Sep 11, 2014)

maynard said:


> On the other hand, I personally know a beek that has been fine for years, and then got stung inside the nose and went into anaphylactic shock. She saved her life with her epipen.
> 
> Now I know this is anecdotal, and the chances you will ever use your Epipen are small. It happens, and I know more than one beek that it has happened to.


maynard is correct

Im telling you... no matter how macho or experienced or immune you think you are...
If you get stung in a blood vessel you will experience my same weekend torment.

If you don't at least have Benadryl quickly available... 
You are screwed and running out of time fast.

You Macho "old timer" beeks, do a disservice to all other new Beeks by undermining medical preparation.

Ive only been keeping bees for 2 years... 
my neighbor, a state certified bee keeper of 9 years, my mentor,
also had ZERO Benadryl and a useless 2 year OLD EpiPen...

He too was macho, put honey on my stings and 
kept telling me "Just calm down man, it cant be that bad"...
I lost precious time before he dropped the macho old school crap and ran me to get some Benadryl...

He is my friend, a super knowledgeable beek, and a good man... but....

Listen folks,
All the "good old boy Macho" goes right out of you when you are covered with a full body bee sting rash, and vomiting you guts out, even AFTER Stopping your anaphalactic reaction in its tracks...

so, bottom line, have your meds ready...


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Steadfast said:


> Ive only been keeping bees for 2 years...


Listen up everyone, we've got a _real_ expert speaking.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

The legal facts are pretty clear:

1) it is illegal to obtain an epipen without a prescription.
2) it is illegal for your doctor to prescribe an epipen if you do not have symptoms that warrant it, i.e. you have had a systemic reaction that indicates you may need one.
3) it is illegal for you to administer a prescription medicine that was prescribed for you to someone else.
4) if you break these laws and someone dies you could be charged with manslaughter.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

> it is illegal for your doctor to prescribe an epipen if you do not have symptoms that warrant it, i.e. you have had a systemic reaction that indicates you may need one.


That is simply not true Michael.


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## TurnTex (Mar 6, 2015)

Michael Bush said:


> The legal facts are pretty clear:
> 
> 2) it is illegal for your doctor to prescribe an epipen if you do not have symptoms that warrant it, i.e. you have had a systemic reaction that indicates you may need one.


You are the second person I have seen on Beesource make this claim. The other makes it repeatedly. I asked for the statute to back this up earlier in this thread I believe but have not seen anything on this "legal fact". I am not trying to be a turd but would like to see proof of this. As I mentioned in another post, I asked my Dr. this VERY question on a routine check up a few weeks ago and she said it was "hogwash" (her words) and then she called in the prescription. Again, not trying to be a turd, I just would like to get to the bottom of this and get the facts, not supposition. There has been at least one MD and one RPh here on beesource that claim this is not true. Who is right, I really would like to know.


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## larryh (Jul 28, 2014)

My doc has the same views as yours. Refreshing isn't it?


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

TurnTex said:


> You are the second person I have seen on Beesource make this claim. The other makes it repeatedly. I asked for the statute to back this up earlier in this thread I believe but have not seen anything on this "legal fact". I am not trying to be a turd but would like to see proof of this. As I mentioned in another post, I asked my Dr. this VERY question on a routine check up a few weeks ago and she said it was "hogwash" (her words) and then she called in the prescription. Again, not trying to be a turd, I just would like to get to the bottom of this and get the facts, not supposition. There has been at least one MD and one RPh here on beesource that claim this is not true. Who is right, I really would like to know.


Straight from the horses mouth. The Epipen website:

*Do you have to be certified to administer EpiPen® to someone else who is in need
of the medication but unable to administer it themselves? 

*
Emergency administration of EpiPen® in the case of a suspected severe allergic reaction does not require certification. The patient’s physician or pharmacist should review the package insert in detail with the patient or caregiver to ensure that he/she understands the indications and use of the EpiPen®.


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

Technically I doubt it is entirely legal to administer epinephrine that was prescribed to you, to another individual. That being said you can only use it if you have it. So if someone goes into anaphylaxis in your presence you can elect to save their life or not, depending on your best judgment at the time. If you are near to care or paramedics perhaps it would be acceptable to hold off, if not you might want to take the chance. You could save a life. If you intend to make an informed decision you would be best served to be aware of the signs and symptoms of anaphylaxis. 

ANAPHYLAXIS SYMPTOMS — Symptoms of anaphylaxis generally begin within minutes to a few hours after exposure to a trigger.
The most common symptoms of anaphylaxis are hives (urticaria) and swelling of the skin (angioedema), which occur in 80 to 90 percent of reactions. Respiratory symptoms occur in about 70 percent of reactions, and are especially common in people who also have asthma or another chronic respiratory disease. Extremely low blood pressure causing lightheadedness, dizziness, blurred vision, or loss of consciousness (passing out) occurs in up to about 70 percent of reactions.

Anaphylaxis can cause symptoms throughout the body:
●Skin – Itching, flushing, hives (urticaria), swelling (angioedema)
●Eyes – Itching, tearing, redness, swelling of the skin around the eyes
●Nose and mouth – Sneezing, runny nose, nasal congestion, swelling of the tongue, metallic taste
●Lungs and throat – Difficulty getting air in or out, repeated coughing, chest tightness, wheezing or other sounds of labored breathing, increased mucus production, throat swelling or itching, hoarseness, change in voice, sensation of choking
●Heart and circulation – Dizziness, weakness, fainting, rapid, slow, or irregular heart rate, low blood pressure
●Digestive system – Nausea, vomiting, abdominal cramps, diarrhea
●Nervous system – Anxiety, confusion, sense of impending doom
A severe form of anaphylaxis causes sudden collapse without other obvious symptoms, such as hives or flushing. This form of anaphylaxis occurs most commonly after a person is stung by an insect.
Adults tend to have more severe systemic reactions and the vast majority of deaths occur in adults as a result of circulatory collapse. In adults, the absence of cutaneous manifestations is associated with more severe reactions.


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

As far as a physician being open to prescribing the Epi-pen I think they would only need to weigh the benefits verses the risks involved. What if they refused the request and then the patient died of anaphylaxis? Methinks that would also be grounds for litigation.


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## Steadfast (Sep 11, 2014)

I carry a fire arm, Practice at the range at least once a month, and have a conceal carry license.
I do this to protect myself, my family and to have the tool to save others as well, should things get really bad.

It is called "The sheep dog" mentality.
As a decorated Army Veteran I have never lost it.

I now have 2 EpiPens... (That $0 copay card pg1 worked! Thanks)
If a someone drops from Anaphylaxis in front of me and I have the tool (epipen) which can save him/her;
I will try to save them... *every time...* And I will do so for the same reasons I carry.

Yes, It is important to know the laws and to try to abide by them...
Innocent human life is always worth more than any legal hassle... 
Im not gonna stand their and watch an Innocent slowly, horribly die because "I might get sued." or "go to jail"...
Heck , I would ware THAT conviction on "my record" as a Badge of HONOR...

Sometimes I wonder what is wrong with us as Americans... 
And, what have we become...


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## Ravenseye (Apr 2, 2006)

My wife is retired from working in a daycare for over 20 years. The business had legally prescribed Epipens on hand in the event of a child going into shock. Twice over the years she worked there, she had to administer a dose during an absolute emergency and both times the paramedics were on the phone and were fully aware that the child in shock was being treated. Thankfully, all ended well. One little girl was stung by something in the play area and came in just before collapsing. I don't recall what the other incident was caused by. It's clearly not against the law to administer this medication when it's not prescribed to you, at least not in this circumstance. And having paramedics on the way, fully aware of the situation is more than reasonable and responsible.

An Epipen is a powerful tool, to be used in extreme emergencies and by people who are aware of the situation and advised to the fullest extent possible. I can promise you that the parents of the children who were saved by the use of an Epipen were grateful. That said, my advice here has always been to seek the counsel of your physician regarding its applicability to you or others, learn how to use it if you think you ever might have to and adopt safe practices if you or a family member is known to be sensitive to situations where an Epipen might have to be used. Prevention before cure.


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## Steadfast (Sep 11, 2014)

My doc said that my symptoms and the timing of them pretty much confirms I'm not allergic and that I was in fact stung directly into a blood vessel. but we did the blood allergy test "just to be sure". (results pending)


He also suggested I (and every bee keeper) build a small separate emergency kit with its own separate supply of Gel Cap Benadryl, liquid Benadryl, and the EpiPen... "That way no one in the house will clean out your Benadryl supply because they have the sniffles."


He said if those symptoms happen again to start treatment with two adult doses of the liquid Benadryl, if that does not work and you start to go into shock use the EpiPen and go to the hospital. The Gel Cap Benadryl is for a 3rd dose, 2- 3 hours later, if the initial Benadryl works and you don't need the EpiPen..


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Beekeepers are not the best sources of medical info, nor is the government, but guess where doctors and pharmacists get their information from? 

It's about time for the attorney beekeeper to say something here.

I know what I need to know about epipens now and thanks everyone.


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Steadfast said:


> It is important to know the laws and to try to abide by them...
> Innocent human life is always worth more than any legal hassle...
> Im not gonna stand their and watch an Innocent slowly, horribly die because "I might get sued." or "go to jail"...


This is so true. Some people get so obsessed with the legal minutiae that they lose their humanity.

If someone needs help and you can help them, then help them! Otherwise, you are not much of a person.

This applies to more than just bee stings, too.

JMHO


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## maynard (Jul 7, 2014)

Michael Bush said:


> The legal facts are pretty clear:
> 
> 1) it is illegal to obtain an epipen without a prescription.
> 2) it is illegal for your doctor to prescribe an epipen if you do not have symptoms that warrant it, i.e. you have had a systemic reaction that indicates you may need one.
> ...


Items 1, and 3 are true. 

Item 4 I guess is a "legal fact", you _could_ be charged with manslaughter I suppose. Of course you could be charged with manslaughter anytime anybody dies whether or not you had any thing to do with it. Innocent people are convicted of murder.

I would be shocked if item 2 were true. I've never had a problem getting an epipen prescription after telling a doc I'm a beekeeper. 

Repectfully,


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

"About one-half of patients who die as a result of Hymenoptera-induced anaphylaxis did not know that they had an allergy"
Up-To-Date "Bee, yellow jacket, wasp, and other Hymenoptera stings: Reaction types and acute management"

Half of people who die after a bee sting had no previous severe reaction.


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## jjohnsind (Apr 24, 2014)

^^^^^ Facts that make me want to continue keeping my epipens around, even without a CURRENT allergy. It seems some have gotten defensive about the use and legality of epipens, but I think I'd rather have one around than not. I can always make the decision to use one when the time comes around, but at least that option is still there. BTW, in speaking with a friend who is a director of the childcares at our university, they DO carry epipens. I'm sure legal issues have all been sorted out - but he says they HAVE to have epipens around and half the kids families will NOT know that their kids have allergies. Go figure.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

Ravenseye said:


> The business had legally prescribed Epipens on hand in the event of a child going into shock.


says it all the Business had epipens prescribed, not your wife's name on it.


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## gnor (Jun 3, 2015)

What I suggest as a former first aid instructor is that beekeepers be trained in first aid emergency care. Most of us live a few minutes away from an EMS response, and there are a lot of treatment protocols that should be followed other than administering an epipen.


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## marshmasterpat (Jun 26, 2013)

Hmmmm, interesting. Like the idea of distraction and injection of an epipen and walking away. Something to remember.

If I was within 15 minutes to 30 minutes of a hospital, I would not use one on somebody. However, I know of several areas around where I have done cut outs and they were 30+ from the hospital. Will be doing 3 cutouts in the next week or so that we have had to call an ambulance to the area for other reasons (electricity) and it take 50 minutes or so for the ambulance as we sat with defib unit. The fire truck is staffed with no EMTs, so they sat and waited as well. So if I had a pen at one of these sites and systems started showing, you bet, inject and go full bore to hospital.


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## crocodilu911 (Apr 17, 2015)

I see 3 pages later everybody is an expert in something. 

Benadryl is a good idea to have around the house. liquid or pills, any form will do. I have some in my truck too, just in case. epepen no. I am not saying it is a good/bad idea, but I think that in most cases it is not needed. also, most people with allergies, carry some sort of anti allergenic medicine with them , so in case of a new allergy, let's say the bee sting, that medicine will help a little I think. when it comes to people, I do think the best way is the hospital and not self medication when it comes to this type of situation.

ask yourself this question, if you walk in the bush and a rattle snake bites you, will you self medicate with some local native remedy or run to the hospital? the same with bee stings, if you have a allergic reaction, call EMS, go to a hospital, even a pharmacy. get professional help. a snake bite is said to be equivalent to about 120 bee stings....I got more than that on occasions, way more, and I also had itchy skin, vomited, but I had Benadryl and took the rest of the day off  it happened to me 2 times, in 30 years I have been around beehives. now, to my dad, it happened 3 times, and about 5 times he had to run other people to hospitals or EMS were called. maybe about 12 or so instances our bees killed pets, farm animals, etc... but guess what...once the bee is out of the hive, your insurance has a different view on responsibility. not to say my dad and I did not paid the damages, and sometimes at double the cost....but that is the game we play.


it seems some people forget that bees killlllllll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
should I say it again.....BEES KILLL !!!!

now all those people who decided not to use the smoker, not to ware a veil, place a hive next to a populated area and other stupid things like this, maybe you should all have a epepen tied to the hives, or to your necks. that way when the inevitable will happen, you will be prepared. 

I used to keep bees in many states, probably worked bees in half the states (and I count Hawaii in there too  ) and California I have to say it is the worst. everybody is allergic to bees in California. I had bees on the other side of the freeway, up on a hill, 4.5mi in straight line from any house or trailer or tent, but the new development on the other hill in face of my bee yard, mind you 4.5 miles away as the crow flies ( or as google maps shows it) and the local police dep would get calls as people would move in, about them being allergic to bee stings, and they want the bees out. lucky us that there is a grandfather clause , or we would have lost all our bee yards. 

I think this is getting out of hand, on one hand new beginner beekeepers doing all kind of mistakes, and on the other hand the public that is un-educated to the bees (besides that nice science fact that 1 in 4 bites of food come from a bee) and they cause more problems than it's worth.

now you get stung every 5 yeas, yes you will swell up. you get stung several times, you will have a adverse reaction....if you are allergic, you will die within the hour unless you get medical help ( my cousin became allergic after getting stung hundreds of times) so go get help. if you see bees, play it safe, walk away from there, and let them bee  I am sure some poor beekeeper would appreciate that very much. 

I probably trained dozens of beekeepers, and I never had problems with them. none died, and the only one that had a mild allergy I convinced to start raising pigeons. and at the end of my rant here, I would just like to say that I fired people from our business, or businesses I used to run as a professional beekeeper, for being stupid around bees and doing whatever. 

it's like a construction site, use steel toe shoes, gloves and hard hats, and I regard beekeeping the same. use a veil, smoker and be safe and smart about how and when you open your hives. 

sorry if this is too long....I have an office job people, lots of time to burn


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

An anti-histamine like Benadryl is a fine way to treat itches and hives if that is the only problem and the person is not progressing on to more serious symptoms in the lungs, throat and heart such as :
●Lungs and throat – Difficulty getting air in or out, repeated coughing, chest tightness, wheezing or other sounds of labored breathing, increased mucus production, throat swelling or itching, hoarseness, change in voice, sensation of choking
●Heart and circulation – Dizziness, weakness, fainting, rapid, slow, or irregular heart rate, low blood pressure

If it is progressing to a real anaphylactic reaction, epinephrine is the only treatment that's going to have any beneficial effect- either under medical care or provided on scene.


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## dynemd (Aug 27, 2013)

"Agents that may be given as adjunctive therapies to epinephrine in the treatment of anaphylaxis include H1 antihistamines, H2 antihistamines, bronchodilators, and glucocorticoids (e.g. prednisone). None of these medications should be used as initial treatment or as sole treatment because they do not relieve upper or lower respiratory tract obstruction, hypotension, or shock and are not lifesaving.
Epinephrine is first-line treatment for anaphylaxis and there is no known equivalent substitute. A systematic review of the literature has failed to retrieve any randomized controlled trials that meet current standards and support the use of H1 antihistamines in anaphylaxis.
Despite this, H1 antihistamines are the most commonly administered medications in the treatment of anaphylaxis. This suggests overreliance on these agents, which should be considered adjunctive to epinephrine for the purpose of relieving itching and hives."
Up-To-Date, Anaphylaxis: Rapid recognition and treatment, Simons, F., Camargo, C.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

When I get stung my body reacts ...fight or flight and for some reason my body picks fight.
I get angry and the adrenaline is flowing.
Oh...

adrenaline and epinephrine are the same thing....I'm good.


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## wildbranch2007 (Dec 3, 2008)

aunt betty said:


> adrenaline and epinephrine are the same thing....I'm good.



:thumbsup:


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