# winter losses



## dcross (Jan 20, 2003)

Had 6 last fall, 5 now. The dead one was robbed within an inch of it's life last fall. Lesson learned.

Everything was in double deeps except one in a shallow and a deep.

I used one dose of vaporized oxalic on my packages before they capped any brood, and three doses five days apart on my two overwintered hives. All had low to no natural mite drops in late summer, so I only treated once last year.


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## Dan Williamson (Apr 6, 2004)

Only had 3 hives going into winter and still only have 3 hives.







Bees are doing well. In fact there are alot of bees in the hives with plenty of stores left. I think it helps to have a small number of hives. The individualized care and attention you can give to your hives is much greater then someone with 50 or more hives. I treated with fmgo/thymol all year and OA vapor in the fall.

Dan


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

40 to 50% losses

Dickm


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

8%loss todate expect it to go to 10%
Frank


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

Dickm and WG Bee, How many hives and what type mite treatments do you use?

WG I think the 10% is very good numbers compared to many others losses like Dicks. I can understand with more hives you will have more likely hood of losses. I am really shocked how many hives people loose. With 30-50% losses each year it would be hard to run a commercial bee business. I want to get up to 100 or more hives. I hope to never see over a 20% loss but I am sure everyone has a bad year from time to time.


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## Reed Honey (Mar 3, 2005)

fieldbee you mentioned that you treated with thymol , I was wondering where I could purchase some?? Thanks


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## Star G (Mar 8, 2005)

"I did combine a couple late splits and swarms that did not build up enough to make it through the winter. I have not lost a hive as of yet. My question is what am I doing if any thing that has kept me from loosing any hives?"

Well, for one thing, you are following the old beekeeping maxim handed down to us by Farrar:

"Take your Winter losses in the Fall."


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## cochran500 (May 20, 2003)

2 of 16 Loss(12.5%). 1 shot of OA late in the fall only treatment. 1 of those was my fault starvation. The other unknown.


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## Kurt Bower (Aug 28, 2002)

Started with 17 hives and lost 1 (5.8%). Dont really consider it a loss when you know going into the winter that it wont make it due to poor fall buiid up. Most likely a queen failure.
Treating with FGMO/thymol cords and fog going into 4th season.


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## Patrick Scannell (Jul 3, 2004)

Lost a large hive that had a high mite infestation last fall. I treated with OA, but they continued to drop mites. 
In Feb. they moved up through a medium of honey stores and looked like they were trying to escape through the inner cover. They died there. 
Mites were still falling through the SBB when there was no evidence of living bees in the hive.


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## WG Bee Farm (Jan 29, 2005)

Hillbillynursery, I started last winter with 96 hives and 75 nucs. I treated approx. 40% of the hives with Apistan and all hives with menthol(shop towels) only after checking groups of 5 hives with the sugar shake method. This was done approx. at the middle of Sept. only because I didn't get around to it in August. I also put a one pound Pollen Protein Pattie on each hive in Sept. to make sure I went into the winter with adequate winter cluster. At the first of October I combined the weakest colonies that I felt I would lose anyway during the up coming winter. During this time I was feeding all colonies that appeared to need feed. I packed it into them.
I have been raising SMR Carniolans and SMR Minn. Hygenic Italians for the last 5 years and have all my hives requeened with what I raise. I have lost so far 8 hives out of 96. This works out to be 8.33%. I have not been able to check all the hives again since 2-22-05 as some are in VA and bad weather keeps me from getting up the logging road where they are.
The 5 frame nucs I overwintered I have dbl stacked. In the rush to bottle honey,prep the hives for winter, work a day time job and sell honey on weekends; I forgot to test and treat. Some of the nucs I did not even dbl stack. All the singles that had Italians died, some of the singles that had Carniolans survived, but needed feeding in Feb.. The dbl stacked nucs most of them survived some with Italians and some with Carniolans. I counted up in Feb. I had lost about 30% but I expect this to increase to +/- 50% nuc lose. A single 5 frame nuc is not enough to survive the winter in my opinion, but dbl stacked losses are not as bad.


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## Reed Honey (Mar 3, 2005)

WHERE CAN I BUY THYMOL??? is it try it depends on the quality of thymol or will any thymol work?? THnaks Kenny


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## Reed Honey (Mar 3, 2005)

SORRY!!!! I guess im half asleep.. THE QUESTION IS IT TRUE THAT IT DEPENDS ON THE QUALITY OF THYMOL OR WILL ANY THYMOL WORK.. AND WHERE CAN I PURCHASE IT.. THANKS KENNY


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>40 to 50% losses

Ouch, what happened dickm

My losses are unknown right now, but my primary estimite is around 15-20%. I am having problems with starvation this winter. Due to abnormalaly long brooding in the fall, causing too much early consumption of stores, and me not putting enough away for them!!
Leason learned. To think that I am the one that preaches "feed in the fall, not spring"!!


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## Kirby Kishbaugh (Dec 21, 2004)

I lost 5 out of 120 = 4.1%. We got lucky over here no snow just rain and 40's almost every day ,nights mostly 28.

Kirby


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Ian,
I expect some losses because I keep everything except O/A and FGMO out of the hives. Right now I have 9 or 10 left alive of 18. 1 starved. 1 was toosmall to make it. The others had plenty of feed and seemed to have enough mass in the fall. I'm speculating that the queens didn't do a good enough job. Bees are carniolans. wintered in 1 deep +2 or 3 supers. In one there was a perfect pyramid of dead bees under the cluster. Looked like they gradually dropped off the cluster into a pile. 9 of the 18 I started the winter with were packages in the spring. I treated them all 3X with O/A 7 days apart in late Sept, early Oct. Mite counts were down. I talked to a commercial guy this winter who lost 45% and he said it happens that way to all of them, every year.

Dickm


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

--I treated them all 3X with O/A 7 days apart in late Sept.

Dickm,
O/A will kill honeybee larve up to about one week of age. It is possible now that the O/A treatment 3 weeks apart may have wiped out 3 weeks of brood in the process. These would be your winter bees necessary for successful wintering. The population may have looked fine, but I suspect that those may have been mostly summer bees that would have fallen away in early winter due to natural attrition, but at this point, few winter bees would have been hatching to replace them.


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## Curry (Sep 22, 2003)

It's lookin' like my losses are in the 25 to 30 percent range. Tough year for me; I've never lost that many. Every one I've seen so far cold-starved. I didn't get any honey from soybeans (which I had counted on), and so they went into winter with few stores. I couldn't get 'em to take sugarwater in the late fall, so...

I noticed all my hives in singles did well- I think I'll try wintering in singles instead of double deeps this year. Besides, I'd like to utilize my boxes better anyway. I just can't keep my numbers up. I'm going to make a ton of summer splits this year and build them up on soybeans (IF they'll produce this year).


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>I talked to a commercial guy this winter who lost 45% and he said it happens that way to all of them, every year.


Every year? or did you mean this past year?


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## Terri (Apr 14, 2003)

I lost one of my 4 hives to mice last fall. I did not reduce the entrances early enough and they got into one of the hives. I actually trapped 4 mice INSIDE the hive, and yet I had had the hive open just a week before I reduced the entrance!

I was really shocked because it was my strongest hives and the bees were still active and flying.

Live and learn. Next year I will get some hardware cloth on the openings in September!

And, I will reduce the entrance on the SAME HOUR as I do a Fall check!


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## Phoenix (May 26, 2004)

Terri, you might want to consider using top entrances instead of bottoms, you will avoid a lot of mice and skunk problems.


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

My thymol source: (needs to be on one line)

http://www.everydayhenna.com/frameset.html?thymol.html#menthol

Good price, excellent service.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Naturebee,
I thought that O/A (evaporated) didn't harm brood. I am surprised to hear that it does. Can you give me a source for that information?

Ian,
To correct myself, I think my friend was referring to all migratory beekeepers, every year. His bees were requeened every spring, fed often but stressed by many moves and medications.
Did you have a long warm fall? What kind of bees do you run? What Tx. Is 20% normal for you?

Dickm


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

20% is a bit high, but I fear it may be pushing 30%. All depend on the weather now, and the ability for me to get feeding into them. Last year I hugged 9%, but ususlly comfortable around 15%. Most of my primary losses are starved
Yes a long brooding, into Nov. promoted big wintering clusters, which is great but big clusters means high food intake. Compounded with an above normal winter to the most part, probably accompanied with brooding early on = starvation. I should of made another round last fall, hind sight is 20-20.
Some yards are 30-40% losses, others are 2-5% losses.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

DickM,
At the Beekeeping Seminar at Penn State, I believe it was Flottum that stated OA will kill brood up to 7 days old. I cannot find reference to back that up, but an abstract to a related study on this link, that makes reference to a 5 day kill..

http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2004/05/M4027/M4027.html

FYI- At the seminar, they highly recommended a drone removal routine for mite control, as very effective in mite control. There seems to be a TOP priority from the bee experts here in PA to push non-chemical methods, as they mentioned they are discovering an accumulative build up of contaminates in comb which they are theorizing is the cause a high number of queen failures in honeybee colonies we are seeing now. IMO, timing this for removal of capped brood for the first week in July thru till about the first week in August would be most effective then, and less costly for the bees and beekeeper. 

On a related mater of interest, I have observed mature feral colonies that are not effected much by varroa. The one of the things they have in common is a very large amount of empty comb (open broodnest). An open broodnest is essential to the health of a colony. So part of my routine includes keeping an unrestricted broodnest in my colonies, especially on about the beginning of July when an open broodnest can aid in the colonies ability to out brood the mites and at the same time permit adequate room for brooding winter bees. And also as Bro Adam states An unrestricted brood nest from the end of May till the end of July is an absolute essential in regions where there is a late honey flow.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Thanks Naturebee,
I read the study. I assume it's important that they are talking about CELL death. I don't think it means that those larvae were dead, just some cells in the etc, etc. (I'm sure it didn't do them any good) I wonder if those critters died. If they did, it doesn't seem like it would be neccessary to do all that DNA analysis to discover harm.
Next point is: how was th O/A delivered? It's been in use as a liquid longer than it has been vaporized. I suspect the liquid form would be more toxic and that's what the study referred to. I vaporized my hives, electrically.
I'll write to Kim and ask him. If something else jumps up, let me know.

Dickm


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

Thanks guys,

That was what I was wanting to see. If anyone else wants to add please do. I understand I only had 10 hives and I watch closely over them would give me a better result. I also believe in taking my losses in the fall. If I did not combine those 4 hives into 2 hives I may have lost all 4. If I had lost 4 of 12 it would give me 30% loss. Instead I lost the slowest queens to build up as I killed the queens of the weakest colonies before combining. So if I count those hives as losses it would be 17% loss.

The things I give credit to for my bees surviving are: 

1) Locally raised queens from feral colonies and buckfast queen that were all open mated with feral bees.

2) Natural cell size as I use foundationless frames. The only 2 hives that were treated for V mites were the 2 that still had rite cell foundation(5.4).

3) The OA treatment to the 2 hives that had regular foundation. One hive was dropping 60 to 70 mites a day using a SBB to check mite load. I did not notice any brood being killed. I used 1.5cc of OA crystals per medium hive body. I used a syringe with the tip cut off at one cc mark to measure the OA. I missed one treatment by 4 days so I gave them a 4th treatment. I will soon have the SBB back in place and start counting again.

There you have my fall reactions and treatments. Keep the comment coming as we all learn from each others mistakes. Even Ian being a long time commercial beekeeper said he needed to feed more in the fall because of a warmer than usual fall. I am sure he will watch for this from now on.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Well, I have lost exactly 2 colonies. Both were very weak and were robbed out in early spring. I managed to catch one of the queens and put her with a few frames of brood so now that one is back in commission.

I checked the 4 colonies at my dad's this past weekend. There I was in a wooded area, surrounded by fields, a large pond about 100 feet away. The sun was a red/orange orb just sinking over the horizon. Daffodils were blooming a few feet away and a stiff breeze was blowing from the west. All of the colonies were alive with bees flying at a temp of about 65. One was obviously very weak.

One of those colonies is about the most vicious I've ever encountered. Africanized bees can't be much worse. Back in the fall I took almost all of their spare honey away half hoping they would starve out over winter. The hive was so light I could lift it with one finger. What do you think I found in this one that I really wanted to get rid of? You probably guessed it by now. That hive had over 100 bees per minute flying in as the sun sank over the horizon. It easily weighed 55 or 60 pounds. When I opened them up the next day, they totally occupied 2 deep brood chambers and need a super RIGHT NOW! There is an early nectarflow from redbud that sometimes hits pretty heavy and this year is the heaviest I've ever seen. That colony had 10 frames of fresh nectar. The other 3 colonies are 1 very weak, 1 weak but building rapidly, and 1 strong and growing. The one vicious colony that I tried to starve has hundreds of flying drones. When I opened them up, the bees hit the air like a new swarm issuing.

Fusion


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Fusion,
I'm going to put a sweater under my jacket and hike out to my bees today because the field is wet and snow covered. It's going to be 41 F. today but I'm hoping to see a bee. I don't need to hear about daffodils. Or multi frames of brood for that matter. Right now I'd trade the gentle Carniolans for some mean bees that were booming. (Offer expires next week).
Any chance that the vicious bees have been robbing? That would account for heavy vs weak colonies?
Lloyd Spear told me a story once about some aggressive bees that someone wanted to get rid of (up north here) so he left the lid off all winter. In the spring, there they were ready to do business!

dickm


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

Dick,

If they had been robbing, then the weak hives at that location would have been the target. The weak hives were heavy with stored honey.

The vicious but strong colony was full of fresh nectar that could be easily shaken from the frames. It was clear and had a very distinctive fresh nectar smell and taste.

I really can't explain it except to say that we have had a much milder than normal winter. It helps that early pollen and nectar flows started about 3 weeks earlier than normal.

Fusion


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I think that when winter losses are discussed, it would be helpful to be able to put things in context. 
Winter in the South is vastly different than winter in the Northeast, or North Central Plains, or Canada. 
Winter varies greatly in the Northeast alone. When the first and last frosts are, average daily temperatures, % sunlight, % RH, length of confinement.
Southern hives are looking at swarming, while Northern hives are looking to survive till, the weather turns warmer.	
Maybe a project that we can all undertake next season would be to put as much of this in context as possible. 
This past winter I tracked some of this info. (in the sun as that is where the hive are)
January 2005:
Average Daily Temp: 19F / - 7.2C
Average Daily Low Temp: 11F / -11.7C
Average Daily High Temp: 26F / -3.3C
Lowest Temp: -18F / -27.8C
Lowest Daily High: -2F / -18.9C
Highest Temp: 47F / 8.3C
Sunny Days: 15 days
Snow / Overcast: 16 days
March to date:
Average Daily Temp: 24F / - 4.4C
Average Daily Low Temp: 16F / -8.9C
Average Daily High Temp: 31F / -0.6C
Lowest Temp: 3F / -16.1C
Lowest Daily High: 24F / -4.4C
Highest Temp: 42F / 5.6C
Sunny Days: 9 days
Snow / Overcast: 6 days

Fall Mite Treatment: Wintergreen / Spearmint Oils in syrup feed in fall (Only type of treatment last (4) years). (1) OA Trickle treatment in December.
Fall Feeding: Feed heavily with lite syrup to promote brood production to have young bees for winter. 
Winter Preparation: (21) Hives wrapped and setup with empty box, paper and granulated sugar. 
(1)Hive not set up with paper and sugar, just wrapped.
As of March 13: (21) hives alive, lost (1) hive in early January from starvation, the (1) without the paper and sugar.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Maybe a "number of days above 50 degrees F" would be useful or even "number of hours above 50 degrees F". That's probably more meaningful, at least this time of year with pollen out now, than the average temps. "Number of contiguous days below zero F" might be another useful one for winter, especially January and February as a cause of cold starving because they can't rearrange stores.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I will let you know when we hit 50F. I am hoping sometime soon. The last time we saw the 50's was last November.
We did hit 38F today thou.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Really? We've had at least 10 days or so of above 50 since the begining of February.


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

You are right that the different areas are very different in temps ect.. Our winter here is a roller coaster when you talk temps. In Jan. we went from 72/50 to 32/19 in 2 days. December is our most consistantly cold month. We still had some 65F day in Dec.. The last 2 weeks in Jan. and first 2 weeks in Feb is our biggest heat bill so should be the coldest month. Just 100 miles south the sings are not near as bad. My dad kept bees before the mites and had low losses in Peoria IL. He kept about 30 hives and loss 6 hives one year which was a very bad winter. His normal winter loss was 2 to 3 hives. He also questioned why others had 20 to 30 percent loss while he kept around 10 percent loss. I will restate this was before either mite hit his area in 1980. What got me thinking about this topic was the mentions of high losses on here then talking with my dad. Then it was a mater of time before I figured out how to post the topic.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

We average about 8 degrees colder than Albany here. Between the elevation difference and snow pack, it stays colder.
We did get to 47F on the 15th of Feb. We had 7 days with highs in the 40's in Feb. The overall average temp for Feb was 25F, Average High: 34F Average Low: 16F
There is still a foot or so of snow at my elevation, and when you get to 4000 feet, it holds till into late May or June.
It is nice for the summer, don't need air conditioning, it rarely gets above the low 80's and with the elevation differences there is almost always a wind.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I am getting tierd of winter already!!

Just snowed again the other day,


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## mark williams (Jan 19, 2003)

Bless your heart Ian, : I'm glad we don't have to face that here.(maybe?)Although I've seen it here in Alabama in march,But we have been like Hillbilly,It's been a roller coaster all winter.Today it's 39 degree last week it got to 70.


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## db_land (Aug 29, 2003)

Today it snowed a little in the Raleigh NC area. Supposed to get up to 68F this Sunday.


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## naturebee (Dec 25, 2004)

I'm tired of winter too. Maples are budded and ready to explode! When we get some good flying weather, better get ready, cos' the maple will be full bloom and bees expanding very rapidly.

One good thing, it will set my locust bloom back about one week which might lessen the chance of a freeze killing my bloom.


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## Alienor (Mar 16, 2005)

14 colonies in fall, 14 healthy colonies now.
No losses and no kind of treatment just 4,9 and 5,1 cells.
I had to do a complete new start last year in august with package bees.
One colony sat on just 7 frames of 12 in september but I decided to put another deep with foundation on for winter feeding and expanding broodnest.(okay, much too late but I prayed & hoped...)
I fed well...*gg
Now, in beginning spring this colony is the weakest on the yard because only sitting on 3 frames per deep but seem to be very healthy and aktive, lots of brood cells.
If I would have heard to the old beekeepers around, I had to put them on only one deep in fall but I bet they would have vanished and died.
Some queens seem to prefer a vertical broodnest instead of an horizontal.
Years ago I had have a Buckfast queen who's broodnest was about 6 deeps high but only 4 frames per deep.
My beekeeping teacher told me nuts until he saw it in person.
Then he advised me to change her to a new queen because "this is not a normal behaviour of a queen"....
I didn't.  
That colony made a surplus of 96 kg of honey in that season...
The 2. best result I ever had.

In upcoming season I will switch to pure nature cell size.
Checker boarding will not work because of lack of completed comb.
I will anticipate (the right word?) the swarms with the old queen and make splits from the frames with queencups.

I apologize for my poor english but hope to be understood.

Greetz, Alienor


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## David51 (Apr 23, 2003)

I lost 3 out of 3 this winter. I think it was trachael mites in one, one looks like starvation and I haven't gotten into the last one yet.
I probably treated with menthol a little too late because the daytime temps were in the 60s when I put the menthol in.
Didn't send any to Beltsville because they were pretty badly decomposed.


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

Alienor,

Your English is better than my German as I know nothing of the german language. I am glad someone from europe answered. With no treatment and only using small/ natural cell sizes and have no losses, I think you are going in the right direction. Thanks again for speaking up.

John


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## bear (Mar 18, 2005)

My two hives did not survive this past very cold winter. What do I need to do to my hive equipment in order to put in new bees? The frames in the hive body are filled with honey.

I am very much a novice and would appreciate any advice.


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## BerkeyDavid (Jan 29, 2004)

Hi Bear
From what I have seen on the weather map you have really got some tough weather this winter. How much stores did you leave? Did you winter in mediums or deeps? Also what part of Maine?


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## moposcar (Apr 5, 2002)

I have 3 hives alive...went into the winter with 3 hives...two of them big hives, one was smaller. I have them all in 2 deeps. Two of them are on the small cell, one on regular..will regress it down this spring. All of them are on SBB, with the bottom closed up for the winter. The small hive I wrapped in roofing felt. I didn't use anything on them for treatments....they didn't ever drop very many mites last fall.


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## daniel G. (Feb 24, 2005)

Reed Honey:

You may want to purchase your thymol through Dr. Pedro Rodridquez, look at FGMO site and get his number. The Everyday Henna.com site has thymol but I don't think it is pure grade if you look closely at what it has in it. Just my Opinion. The Thymol Dr. Pedro gets from Spain is pure grade and is not that expensive. 

It seems to me that the individuals talking about loosing bees during the winter and were not using the FGMO/Thymol plus cords may want to look into using FGMO/Thymol plus cords. From what I read, the individuals using the FGMO/ Thymol and cords had a better success rate, than the individuals that did not use it. 

This is my thought. Could it be that the hives that were not under stress without mites or other problems survived the winters better than the hives under stress and had mite problems? Or is it a problem of the bees not having enough food source? 

Another thought came to mind. When bees are purchased; if the bees are raised in the southern states and shipped north does this have an affect on the bees survival? In other words if a bees genetics is developed in the southern states this would help it to survive the southern state weather better than the northern states climate. Just like plant material. If you order plant material grown in southern states and the plants are shipped north, the plants may not survive due to their cell structure development being wider, which causes water to form to ice cyrstals during the winter months. 
Maybe the source of purchasing bees from southern states have the same affect when shipped north. They try to survive the winter when they are not readily adapted for this type of climate. Just a thought and would make for a neat research experiment to find out why hives die out so much during our winter.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Still waiting for spring with some light snow falling today.


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## nickoli (Sep 25, 2003)

I started with 7 hives, and now I have 2, from the appearance it looked like winter kill, they still had stores, and were clustered up just a few inches from stores. I am thinking next winter I will insulate/wrap the hives.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Snow forcasted for tommorrow. Saying up to 20 cm in places. Maybe I will miss this one....


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

Sorry for yall yanks. It is 68 and sunny today but they are calling for rain the next 2 day but warm temps for the ten day forcast.


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## carbide (Nov 21, 2004)

I've lost one hive out of eight. The hive was a late summer swarm that I caught that just didn't build up enough to make it through the winter.
The maples are blooming and the other hives are packing away the pollen.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

>What are the losses of others . . .
My 04-05 winter loss was zero (so far







)

>What do you use for treatment of V mites?
I have used Apistan, Powdered Sugar Dust, Oxalic Acid Fog.
Only the Apistan produced measureable (sticky-board) results, killing 15,000+ mites last July.

Just started using Sucrocide (applied twice). Have not been able to apply back-to-back (every 5 to 7 days) as directed due to weather (too cold, too windy, or both).

My last "natural drop" (3/21/05) was 48 mites/24 hrs before applying Sucrocide. Have not counted "after 3/21" application . . . yet!


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## Honeyboy (Feb 23, 2004)

Well I had a look in some colonies in one of my yards for the first time this year and it was devistating!!!! Out of 23 colonies I have 10 that are alive. These were all nucs from last year and I'm afraid that they were not strong enough for the winter! There was plenty of stores and I did treat with Check Mite.Anybody else have huge losses this year?


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Dave,
I could see big mite drops with O/A. I'm wondering why you didn't.How did you apply it? I've got 4 out of 10 left but the 2 hives with the highest counts (175-200 mites a day) are survivors after an O/A treatment. Actually 3 treatments a week apart in late sept. I bought some Sucricide for spring treatment and for packages. What kind of sprayer did you use?


Dickm


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Out of 23 colonies I have 10 that are alive. These were all nucs from last year and I'm afraid that they were not strong enough for the winter!

How many frames of bees going into winter? What race of bees? Some races winter on very small clusters and some on larger clusters.

>There was plenty of stores and I did treat with Check Mite.

Did you monitor the mites before you treated? While you treated? After you treated? There are mites resistant to both Apistan and Checkmite out there.


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## Antero (Jan 9, 2005)

Honeyboy


http://ontariobee.com/

http://ontariobee.com/7_hive/default.htm

Terry


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Well, it's the 24th of March and still waiting for the first 50F day of the year. Been close but no cigar yet.
Another foot of snow over night, but temps are supposed to get into the mid 40's this weekend with sun.
On Tuesday with a high of about 49F, they were flying like mad and taking open feed syrup and pollen sub.
The White Popular are openning, but not bloomed yet to be worked. The maples are still a ways off as the temps have held cold.
Spring in the Northeast.


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## BeeBear (Jan 20, 2004)

Spring in the Midwest.

Exactly the same. We might hit 50 this weekend.

I have woodenware that I need to paint before packages arrive. Surely I'll get a few warm days before then . . .


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Don't count on it... 
I have some packages coming on the 9th of April. 
I am planning on making up divides on the 16th of April, but I have put packages in while it was snowing the end of April, so it is anyones guess with the weather. I will let you kown how the winter was in June, it should be over by then.


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## busboy (Mar 24, 2005)

It is sad to read about the losses, but if anyone is interested in a colony, I have one in my backyard I would like removed as it has become a nuisance. It is in a wall in my neighbor's shed, accessible via a window opening. It has been there for at least a year and a half, ever since we moved into the house, so it is a well-established colony. These bees must go to a good home, and if there is any honey, I would only ask for a share of whatever is taken out. Pls email me at [email protected] if you are interested in this free colony.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Mountaincamp and all,
Had a 50 degree day the other day and looked a little at the bees. It was great to see them. 1 hive was hours ahead of the other 3 and looked like they had found some nectar.I have packages coming on the 9th as well. I hope we've seen the last of the snow by then.

dickm


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

>>Anybody else have huge losses this year?

Yup. It is hit and miss throughout my yards. Running a 30-35% loss now. Factor>> starvation!!

Hives brooded late into the fall, huge clusters going into winter. I never seen them so big. And made the mistake of not feedinging them accordingly. Very heavey going into winter with honey, but more surip was needed. 

Right now I am making an early feeding round, and keeping the alive hives stronge. Any hive that has made it to this point is a boomer, so making up for my losses will not be a probem. 

Early sping feeding is alot of work!!!!
My yards are all in three feet of snow still,...


Dave, did you go through your dead outs? Perhaps mites was not a problem. Was not much of a mite problem last year. About 20% in my operation is attributed to lack of stores. The rest is expected.

Boy, I would watch using that check-mite treatment. I am a grain farmer, and know first all about organo-phoshates,... I tell my neighbours not to use it because of its heavey residue problems and extreem killing effect on bees. Not going to perposely expose my bees to it!!


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Ian, something I have been doing with good results is, in the fall I place an empty box on top and place granulated sugar on paper on the top bars.
If the cluster goes vertical and reaches the top of the frames they have the granulated sugar.
21 of 21 hives set up this way are still going strong.
They can cluster, not have to move above the top bars and get to the sugar.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Do you not find the empty box on top as a heat loss?


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

Well I have lost a hive due to a skunk. It was a weak single medium hive. Since I had been through the hives and broke all the propolis loose the skunk pushed the hive body off the BB. The hive body was standing on end with the frames laying on the ground. When I found it the bees were cold and would not move much if any. I saw the queen. I gently scooped all the bees I could and put them in the hive and set it back up. Later the bees had reclustered. But the queen must have been damaged or chilled to much as they are queenless and broodless so I combined the rest of the living bees with a nuc. Asprin eggs were put out for the varment and they were taken and no more signs of the skunk as of today(3 day from placing eggs).


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## Sungold (May 11, 2003)

MountainCamp,

How much granulated sugar are you putting on the paper over the top bars? Do you then use an inner cover or just a tele cover? I'm interested to know, I lost 8 hives over the winter to starvation.


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I place an empty box, I use a rough cut pine box about the size of a deep. I place the paper on the top bars, then the sugar 3 - 5 lbs., the inner cover and then outer cover.
I wrap the hive sides with black roofing paper.
I have not had a problem with this setup. As far as heat loss, I would guess that there is some, but with a heavy insulated blanket that some use, it should have a very little affect. I have not found that heat loss or insulation is my problem in winter / late spring. Most of my losses in the past were from cluster starving in early spring. The extra food stores in the sugar can be used all winter long, and the black felt helps with solar gain and warming a hive during a sunny day.
We only got to about -20F, but I also had open screen bottom boards on as well on about half of the hives.


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## Sungold (May 11, 2003)

MountainCamp,

So the bees come up through the paper across the top bars (consuming the sugar as they go. I guess you use some type of a thin paper (newspaper?) Do you spread the sugar (roughly) evenly acros the paper/top bars or do you concentrate it toward the center? When do you put the extra box/sugar on (in the fall or do you wait to see how things are going in the winter?)

Sorry for all the questions but I now just finished checking (and finally getting syrup on) the rest of my hives. I have lost 12 out of 18. It's been too cold here to get in and feed. I need a better plan. Thanks for sharing. cj


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

Sungold, no problem with questions.
I use newspaper, paper towel or something about as heavy.
I pour the sugar on the paper an spread it out, but nothing too precise.
I set the hives up with the empty boxes as soon as I pull supers off in the fall.
I feed a lite syrup in the fall with jar feeders to promote brood production for young bees for the winter.
I feed syrup well into early winter. With the wrap and a sunny day they will feed with temps in the low to mid 20s and up.
When I wrap my hives, the end of October or early November, I put the granulated sugar in the hives.
I open and check the feeder jars and granulated sugar, all winter. Opening a hive quickly at the temperatures you will see in NJ, will not hurt your bees.
I have open screen bottom boards with lows @ the -20F range.
The empty box on top, below the inner cover, allows you to open a hive and not disturb a cluster that might otherwise be disturbed if it were up against the inner cover.
The empty box allows me to place what I want right where the bees are or can get to.
The empty box and feeding on the top bars means that the cluster can feed as a group and they do not have to break up. They do not have to move above the top bars if they do not want to.
21 of 21 hives setup this way came through winter. I set 1 hive up a little different and they did not make it. I did not use the sugar / paper on the top bars.
pictures @ www.mountaincampfarm.com


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

We hit 51F this afternoon after the rain stopped and the sun came out.
The girls were working the pollen sub in trays as nothing has bloomed yet.


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## Ricko (May 18, 2004)

MountainCamp,beautiful picture! With your sugar/newspaper combination, do you put any slits in the newspaper? To allow the bees to come straight up and through the paper during the cold to get the sugar without having to go all the way to the sides, and up and around to get the sugar?


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## MountainCamp (Apr 12, 2002)

I do not cut any slits in the paper. The bees work the sugar from the edges. But, they will chew through the paper to get at the sugar as well.


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

dickm - RE: Mar 24; Sorry for slowwwww response









I applied OA over TOP of brood chamber (more than once). My BEFORE and AFTER mite drops did NOT reflect a BIG mite kill. (Used 1/2 TEAspn + a little more







)

Sucrocide instructions says to mix 3 TABLEspoons in 2 gal of water. I treat ONE hive w/ about 10 frames of bees (in 3 deeps), so I have been mixing 1 TEAspoon in 32 fl oz water and discarding any leftover (mixing fresh for each use). I have been using a pump-up, hand-held, sprayer that has a "working" capacity of 1.5 qts. This sprayer seems to work well for ONE hive.

BAD NEWS: Mite drops do NOT show large KILL after Sucrocide application.

I have now applied Sucrocide 4 times. I do NOT see an increase KILL after application, and mite numbers continue to climb.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

Are you getting every bee soaked with the sprayer or spraying it down between the frames?
I used a heater with the O/A and there were definite mite kills After 3 tx the counts were near zero. 2 of my survivors were the ones with counts of 150 and 200. The only trouble is....the queens didn't survive the winter. I had 7 of 18 hives survive to today. Of those, 6 have no queen. The 7th is gangbusters. Could it be the O/A killing queens or just the residue in the comb of the breeders? Who has good Carni queens today?

dickm


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## Dave W (Aug 3, 2002)

I remove EVERY frame and spray bees on both sides, using about 1.5 fl oz if frame is 100% covered w/ bees (both sides). I have EXPECTED drop numbers to DECREASE (zero would be nice) after 3 or 4 tx. But they are INCREASING at a steady rate.

I have sprayed my queen, sprayed capped brood, sprayed OPEN brood and eggs. Have not seen ANY sign of damage (yet







)

Please explain your "heater w/ OA" - thanx


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## Hillbillynursery (Nov 13, 2003)

The OA heater can be as simple as a few pieces of pipe together(copper with brass fittings) and use a propane torch to heat the area with the OA until it vaporizes. Then if you like how it works you can buy the factory made ones that use a battery to heat a small metal plate the vaporizes the OA.


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## dickm (May 19, 2002)

I bought the battery heater. I think the more controlled heat is better for the bees. I think this has been discussed.

dickm


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## roger eagles (Apr 18, 2004)

20%


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