# How Might I Breed the Mean Out of these Bees?



## AAIndigo (Jun 14, 2015)

bobolinaloha said:


> Hi,
> 
> I need bee breeds that do well in cold and wet conditions. From what I do know about bee breeds the best breed for this is the German dark _A. m. mellifera_, which I believe is predominately what I have (currently 11 hives, working to have 50). I also have a couple hives I am guessing are Italian bees _A. m. lingustica_, or some other gentle breed more susceptible to disease.
> 
> My question is, do you know what breeds or hybrids might be good for my described weather conditions, are good honey producers and are less aggressive?


I'm not sure if she will ship your way but you may want to contact Lauri Miller https://www.facebook.com/lauri.miller.33?fref=ts

You will find her here as well


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## AAIndigo (Jun 14, 2015)

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?332587-mini-nuc-home-made-frame-feeders


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Welcome to Bee Source, bobolinaloha!

Here I'm thinking to buy some new queens for splits earlier here since our
climate is much the same as yours. We have fogs in the winter and down to 40s with the yearly arctic
chills here at the time when they're brooding up. I can recommend the Caucasian bees from the
Caucasian Mountains. They will do well in wet and cooler weather there. We have members here
that keeps them too. Or you can find them at ebay though they are carnis mutt queens. If you
are concern about the AMM mutts Italians, then the carnis X Italians 1st generation are also mean bees.
Only the AMM mutts the gentle AMM will you get them calmer. There is a U.K. AMM project trying to restore
the native AMM there but without the meanness or at least they're trying to out breed this trait. Perhaps you can
contact them to keep your AMM gentler too once you've selected the breeders. Without the genetic screening your AMM might turn out to be the Russians, gray carnis, or other mutts. Since beekeeping is all local, if your local area is full of 
these mean drones then having an open mating queens will keep the mean genetics anyways since the virgin queen will fly up to 5 miles on her mating flights. I say more of the carnis genetics there since the island is cooler by the Ocean.
Contrary to popular belief, the Italians are gentle bees and very resourceful on their honey stores. They can be overwintered in smaller 3-5 frames nucs in the winter also. Mine will fly on rainy days and cooler weather at 50s on a sunny day. Maybe mine got mutted to the point that they are no longer mean and will keep their honey over the winter. And we do have quilt box infos here to keep the moisture out during the cold winter months. I would go for the Italians (Cordovan) if in your situation. There are also a few big bee operation in the island for you to get their queens. Hope this helps!


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

To answer the title, you won't be breeding them into excellent bees for a few decades - it takes time - but you will see some improvement. Introducing excellent stock is the first step, killing the drones of the worst colonies and breeding from the gentlest queens will be ongoing, add drone frames and pollen patties to the gentlest colonies, repeat/refine/repeat/refine is the process.

To answer the question at the bottom of your original post (which strains?), try Buckfast bees. You have cold conditions - no problem, you want gentle bees - no problem, you want lots of honey - you're not too far from the top with Buckfasts.

Read Brother Adam's books, read Dr. Cobey's website www.honeybeeinsemination.com, and read up on bee genetics, which are different from human genetics.

There will be outcrossing on Hawai'i. The island does have a problem with aggressive bees. Talk to Gus over at Kona Queens / Olivarez, he went through quite an ordeal with that problem. He went to Dr. Susan Cobey to set up a breeding program that cured the aggressive ("defensive hive response", to be correct) behavior.

There are Buckfast queen producers in Canada, bee Weaver in Texas, and throughout Europe. There are some Buckfast bee and breeder websites, but possibly in German - I'll look into it and report back, or others may chime in.

Hope this helps, good luick. -Kilo


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Welcome to Bee Source and good luck with your breeding program.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

> Paauilo, Hawaii, gets 94 inches of rain per year. The US average is 39. Snowfall is 0 inches. The average US city gets 26 inches of snow per year. The number of days with any measurable precipitation is 179.
> 
> On average, there are 173 sunny days per year in Paauilo, Hawaii. The July high is around 84 degrees. The January low is 58. Sperling's comfort index for Paauilo is a 90 out of 100, where a higher score indicates a more comfortable year-around climate. The US average for the comfort index is 54. Our index is based on the total number of days annually within the comfort range of 70-80 degrees, and we also applied a penalty for days of excessive humidity.


http://www.bestplaces.net/climate/city/hawaii/paauilo


As a side note, if I had a dollar for every report of "German black bees" being kept by beekeepers on here I could buy Barry's yacht. :lpf:

Requeen your colonies and get the idea that you're going to breed a super bee with ten colonies out of your head. You can certainly raise your own queens, but they will be whatever the dominant bee is in the area in really short order.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

One more source for stock that comes to mind is the Caucasian bee from Georgia, formerly part of the USSR. These extremely gentle, grey colored bees were almost wiped out by a preference for Carpathian bees by former Soviet beekeepers.

Current US suppliers are Dr. Susan W. Cobey at Washington State University, and Old Sol Apiaries in California. 

My personal experience with them was for one season. Mine were extremely gentle - the gentlest I've ever dealt with, but *NOT* great honey producers - mostly kind of lazy when compared to other bees. Slow buildup in the Spring, but in all fairness I got them perhaps a bit late in the year on a drought year, so likely I just missed the main flow. *They do make a LOT of propolis*. I had 2 colonies of these, but a spray rig wiped all my breeders that Winter, including the Caucasians. They are known for their long proboscis or "tongue", allowing them to work some flowers that other bees cannot, begging the question, "How well do we know our flower blooms?"

If you do get Caucasians and try to produce propolis, try making a top box with plastic propolis traps oriented vertically with a beespace and a half between each trap. Even a small colony will likely fill the whole thing!

Of the 2 subspecies I've mentioned, Caucasians and Buckfasts (in a previous post), I'd probably go with the Buckfasts on Hawai'i. I strongly suspect that you'll be happier with the honey production of the Buckfasts better, as I think they are adapted very closely to your climate, but do ask Old Sol Apiaries. Their website lists the Caucasians as strong honey producers that fly out in all weather. Also ask Buckfast producers and beekeepers in UK and Europe about Buckfasts.

One more resource on breeding programs, look at www.glenn-apiaries.com Tom and Suki Glenn were some of the world's best bee suppliers, they have retired, but do maintain their website, last I checked. Lots and lots of great advice on their website. Don't forget the dash when typing glenn-apiaries.com


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## JSL (Sep 22, 2007)

Despite what you characterize as cold, your area is relatively speaking, quite mild. The overwhelming majority of bees on the islands are Italian in origin. There are several large producers on the Big Island. Carniolan queens are raised on the Big Island primarily for export into the Canadian and US markets.

Kilocharlie, it is illegal to import live honey bees into any of the islands...


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks, Joe. Sorry about that, I probably heard that before but forgot. 

You might be able to clear germplasm and/or eggs with permission - how to get that? Hmm, probably hobnob / wine and dine with those that make the decisions, discuss HOW to safely import them, not IF you can.

If that does eventually work out, THEN you should start your breeding program to promote those traits. Open mating will present many problems keeping those traits (they'll disappear in a few seasons), so you might consider learning about instrumental insemination. 

It would be a BIG effort in learning it and setting it up, but probably worth the effort if you intend to become a breeder. If, on the other hand you only want to supply one ranch with 50 colonies, it would be way too much effort, like buying a 36 lbs sledge hammer in order to crack a walnut. Meanwhile, go with the best stock you can get *IN* Hawai'i.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

If it is illegal to import then where do the queen producers there got their stocks from?
You mean they have to travel the whole islands to find the gentle type stocks? Somehow some
viable germplasm got there with permission for the II process. If all the amm drones are local then
it will be hard to control the mean genetics if the queens are open mated. It will be a hard process to
stock the gentle drones every 5 miles or so around your apiary perimeter.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Very doubtful that his stock is AMM, more likely crosses with A.M. Ligurica or A.M. Ligusta, the cross-breeds which can vary from light to very dark, with some even black, but usually mixed in the same colony. Those crosses can produce some highly defensive bees. That seems to be what happened in 1956 in Brazil when they were crossed with A.M. Scutellata to make the notorious AHB.

www.beesource.com/resources/usda/the-different-types-of-honeybees/


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