# Caucasian and buckfast queens



## HONEYGUY1973 (Jan 31, 2018)

https://www.therubees.com/ 239-258-1015 I have bought virgin buckfast queens from these folks and they are doing very well.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I bought my Buckfast from Jason Bragg last year. You will have to be quick on Jan 1 when he puts them on his website, he will sell out immediately. https://newriverhoneybees.com/


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Don't see too many Caucasians around, Old Sol was using some from the WSU program as breeders, there's a few people here that have some of the II breeders out of WSU as well. PM me in March, and I'll let you know if mine is still kicking.


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## Nicksotherhoney (Jun 10, 2017)

JRG13 said:


> Don't see too many Caucasians around, Old Sol was using some from the WSU program as breeders, there's a few people here that have some of the II breeders out of WSU as well. PM me in March, and I'll let you know if mine is still kicking.


Thanks I’ll definitely check those out and PM you in March.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

ruthiesbees said:


> I bought my Buckfast from Jason Bragg last year. You will have to be quick on Jan 1 when he puts them on his website, he will sell out immediately. https://newriverhoneybees.com/


They seem to be there already!
https://newriverhoneybees.com/shop?olsPage=products

Small errors in Braggs pdf -presentations about what Brother Adam said about flying range of bees: 
To my knowledge Brother Adam had an experience where his black bees (the largest bee race of A.mellifera) flew 3,6 km, and rise of 400m, to get heather honey.
After the black bees went extict he seldon had any crop from heather in his home apiary. 

Original Italian bee is smaller than black bee (A.m.m.) 

Bragg writes: "According to Brother Adam, he had bees that he knew flew five miles, but not the larger Italians"


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## aran (May 20, 2015)

Juhani Lunden said:


> They seem to be there already!
> https://newriverhoneybees.com/shop?olsPage=products
> 
> Small errors in Braggs pdf -presentations about what Brother Adam said about flying range of bees:
> ...


website just says out of stock for the 2019 queens when i look


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

aran said:


> website just says out of stock for the 2019 queens when i look


yes, this year he is letting people "shop" to figure out what they want to buy when he adds the stock on Jan 1. Last year I was trying to decide between the different ones, and the mated ones sold out before I could make a selection. I ended up buying 4 virgins of different varieties. In the end, it worked out well for me and I'll probably do the same again this year so the queens are locally mated. The virgins are available a month earlier than the mated ones and you have a couple other choices, like Caucasian, at least I did last year.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

There isn't any history on New River's site. How long have they been in operation? There's a blog post about taking a Beekeeping 101 class in March of 2018... A certification in I.I. in March of 2018... Lots of 'name brand' bee strains one can buy. Lot's of facebook activity... Page went live in 2017... pictures of new hives, new gear, new bee suit, new gloves... Is this a new business and a new(ish) beekeeper?


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## jsnbrgg (Sep 17, 2017)

My queen breeding business is three years old, but I've been keeping bees on and off for 30 years. Taking breaks for college, etc.. I attended the Beekeeping 101 class because it is a requirement to partner with the Appalachian Beekeeping collective, no matter how many years experience you have they require you take that class. I also wanted to review the class. I thought it was very well done. I don't wear bee gloves.. Sometimes thin nitrile gloves, but don't even own beekeeping gloves. I was trained and officially certified in "Advanced" ii in March 2018 by Garrett Dodds (USDA ARS), but had already been doing ii for some time before that. Garrett's class required that you already been doing ii successfully before admittance to his class. Hope this helps!

Thanks,
Jason Bragg
New River Honey Bees


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Thanks, Jason, for joining the forum and letting the other beekeepers know about your business. I already placed my 2019 order with Jason and drool over the breeder queens he also has on his page. Maybe one day, I'll get there. For now, I'm thankful for the smaller queen rearing operations that can provide us backyard beekeepers with quality queen stock. At the end of this month, my bee group will be hosting a class on queen rearing for the backyard beekeeper in hopes that we can get more local beeks to graft a small group of queens each year from their overwintered stock to provide to the other local beekeepers.


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## jsnbrgg (Sep 17, 2017)

Thanks for letting me know that I might have an error in my info. Unfortunately, I did not have the opportunity to know Brother Adam, so much of the info that I get about him I have to rely on what I've read. The particular fact that you mention above basically comes from Michael Bush's website at http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfaqs.htm If this fact isn't correct I'll be more than happy to correct it in my pdf if you can point me to where I can find the correct info? or which of Brother Adam's books I can find the correct info in?

Here's the quote from www.bushfarms.com :

"How far do foragers fly?
According to Brother Adam he had bees he knew flew five miles (8km) or more to gather Heather nectar. According to Huber, he marked workers, took them different distances and released them and looked for them to turn back up at the hive. He said they always found their way back when they were 1 1/2 miles (2.5km) from the hive, but past that they didn't. He also says, and it makes sense, that it would depend on the foraging available. It also seems to vary by bee size. Brother Adam says his native Apis Mellifera mellifera, which were smaller, flew the five miles (8km) to get the Heather, but the Italians he replaced them with, which were larger, would not. Dee Lusby says her small cell bees, after regression, came back with totally different pollens than before and that based on the blooms and the spread of flora that depend on pollination she's confident that the small cell bees forage much further than the large cell bees. This would be consistent with Brother Adam's observations."

Thanks!
Jason Bragg
New River Honey Bees


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## jsnbrgg (Sep 17, 2017)

ruthiesbees said:


> Thanks, Jason, for joining the forum and letting the other beekeepers know about your business. I already placed my 2019 order with Jason and drool over the breeder queens he also has on his page. Maybe one day, I'll get there. For now, I'm thankful for the smaller queen rearing operations that can provide us backyard beekeepers with quality queen stock. At the end of this month, my bee group will be hosting a class on queen rearing for the backyard beekeeper in hopes that we can get more local beeks to graft a small group of queens each year from their overwintered stock to provide to the other local beekeepers.


Thanks Ruth! Apparently I had joined once before a while back but had forgotten, because it made me go through the whole "forgot your password" process. I didn't remember joining, lol.. I don't have a whole bunch of time to keep up with several different types of social media so usually just use Facebook. I decided though that this year I'm going to also try and grow my YouTube Channel and post new vlog videos pretty often. I need to learn this forum and start using it also.

Jason


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

jsnbrgg said:


> Dee Lusby says her small cell bees, after regression



Personally, I'd be a bit hesitant of quoting Dee Lusby in reference to the expected behavior of EHB.


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## jsnbrgg (Sep 17, 2017)

AstroBee said:


> Personally, I'd be a bit hesitant of quoting Dee Lusby in reference to the expected behavior of EHB.


I thought I was quoting Michael Bush (who I guess was quoting Dee Lusby).. LOL

Jason


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

jsnbrgg said:


> If this fact isn't correct I'll be more than happy to correct it in my pdf if you can point me to where I can find the correct info? or which of Brother Adam's books I can find the correct info in?


 Size of beeraces:

Friedrich Ruttner "Naturgeschichte der Honigbienen" Auflage 2003, page 63

Dadant Publications, "Hive and the HoneyBee" , revised edition 1992 (second printing), page 32 

Flying distance:

Brother Adam "Breeding the Honeybee" first English edition 1987, page 59

same info in another book 
"Meine Betriebsweise" 4. erweiterte Auflage 1978, page 65


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## jsnbrgg (Sep 17, 2017)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Size of beeraces:
> 
> Friedrich Ruttner "Naturgeschichte der Honigbienen" Auflage 2003, page 63
> 
> ...



Awesome! Thanks!

Jason


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Jason, thanks for coming on to clarify. I appreciate it. 

Adam


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

jsnbrgg said:


> "How far do foragers fly?
> 
> According to Brother Adam he had bees he knew flew five miles (8km) or more to gather Heather nectar.


I too have had bees fly 5 miles to forage. 1986 was the worst year ever for honey production. 86'd in 86. 2.5 ton from 800 colonies. The year I borrowed 70,000 to buy the orchard's bee operation. A Saudi prince had set up an hydroponic endive farm. To prepare the soil, they planted buckwheat. I had an apiary, 5 miles from the closest buckwheat field, store buckwheat honey.

Not small cell bees.


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## Beetastic (Apr 12, 2011)

Nicksotherhoney said:


> I’m thinking about getting some Buckfast and Caucasian queens to graft from. Any input on queen breeders I should check out.


Not sure about the Caucasian's, but true Buckfast can get very defensive around and F3. I've had several breeders warn me. Something to think about.


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## Hunajavelho (Oct 11, 2015)

Beetastic said:


> Not sure about the Caucasian's, but true Buckfast can get very defensive around and F3. I've had several breeders warn me. Something to think about.


F3 is only 12,5% Buckfast. Yes, it is possible but it all depends on the drones in the area.
The same applies for every other pure strain or race of honeybees.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Hunajavelho said:


> F3 is only 12,5% Buckfast....


Meaning - they are 87.5% - any random combination of local lines.
Why the word "Buckfast" is even mentioned still?


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## grozzie2 (Jun 3, 2011)

GregV said:


> Meaning - they are 87.5% - any random combination of local lines.
> Why the word "Buckfast" is even mentioned still?


It shouldn't be used at all. From the University of Guelph pages on the subject located here:- http://www.uoguelph.ca/honeybee/breeding-buckfast-ontario.shtml

The most relavent paragraph with the important bit emphasized
=====================
We continued to import Buckfast stock in the following years, first from Buckfast Abbey and later from the breeder Brother Adam recommended, Keld Brandstrup of Buckfast Denmark Ltd. Ontario beekeepers Barry Davies, Paul Montoux, Rick Neilsen and the University of Guelph all invested in purchasing breeder queens, established isolated mating stations, and became registered Buckfast breeders. Registration required a commitment to use Brother Adam’s breeding system and to pay royalties to the Abbey. *Only registered Buckfast breeders are allowed to use the term Buckfast when advertising colonies or queens for sale.*
=====================


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