# Visible queens are not laying. Why???



## Flatwoods Bee Farm (Nov 1, 2015)

Quick bio. I live in the Piedmont of North Carolina. We have 13 colonies in 3 different locations. Fall flow was not much to speak of so I've been feeding 2:1 syrup to beef up the colonies before they can't feed. Yesterday I was doing my final hive inspections of the year and discovered none of my queens are laying. No eggs, no larvae, no capped brood, nothing. But I visible saw almost all my queens... Please share any ideas as to why. Thanks.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Carniolan and Russian backgrounds will stop laying eggs and raising brood in the fall and early winter. If they are healthy they will resume sometime in late winter.


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## Flatwoods Bee Farm (Nov 1, 2015)

Thank you for the reply Dave Burrup. I always thought I had Italians but I guess I'm wrong.


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

Who knows what you got, what I got and whoever else, with the exception of a few like that island off Sandusky Ohio. Kelly island I think is the name. They have strict breeding program that is enough miles away that others breeds won't fly that far. But my point is, my neighbor down the road claims he has carniolans but everyone around him including me bought Italians. But really, who knows that as well. I have dark queens and light queens and its most likely just a bunch of mutt drones and semi mutt drones mating with mutt queens. We might have more of one breed than the other, but really, who knows.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

Rookie you hit the nail on the head.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

2:1 won't stimulate the queen to lay. You need a light 1:1 syrup

They'll use 2:1 to backfill the broodnest, and other available empty cells. It puts on weight.

The difference between the two strengths is dramatic. They use it totally differently.

With no fall flow and no light syrup late summer, your queens have shut down early. Not a good scenario for good populations of _young_ bees going into winter.


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## Flatwoods Bee Farm (Nov 1, 2015)

I was thinking about the possibility of interbreeding after reading Dave's post. It was just strange for there to be no queen activity this time of year here in NC. But, I know we have queen right colonies with hives packed with healthy bees... What more could I ask for. I guess we'll just see what happens. That is the biggest lesson I've learned. Patience!!! Nature knows best.


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## Flatwoods Bee Farm (Nov 1, 2015)

Adding weight is what I'm trying to do. And it's working great. It was just strange to see no brood.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

The 2:1 and 1:1 mantra of beekeeping is one of the tried and true that I have found from my own experience to be totally false. I have 8 falls behind me now with more than 150 hives being fed all of them Carniolan mutts. I have never had a hive that stopped brooding because I put 2:1 syrup on them. Our bees have boxes full of brood until the weather turns cold. If the weather turns warm again they will brood up again. Warm dry falls like the past three have been difficult to get the weight on the hives because they raise so much brood.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I feed my colonies a light 1:1 syrup and a protein mix mid-late August into September to build up really good populations of young bees. If there is a good fall flow,_ they_ will top off the hives with the collected nectar and pollen which is always better and more nutritious than supplemental feed.

If there is not a fall flow, I can always feed late in fall 2:1 to add weight. 

I had a great fall flow this year with loads of great looking multi colored pollen and large populations of bees that happily collected it. My hives have never been heavier, are full of young bees and I spent half the $$ on sugar compared to last year.

Last year I had so many hives I had a hard time getting to them all on a regular basis and fed them 2:1 late summer/ early fall so it would 'last them longer' between feedings. There was no fall flow to speak of. 

Big Mistake. 

I noticed in September the small nucs were not growing in populations as expected. When I took a closer look I was bummed to see they were just backfilling the brood cells with the syrup. Larger hives were doing the same. 

I was in the same boat you are in. Luckily, it didn't hurt me too much. But it was a big mistake on my part. I'll never do that again.

Too late to stimulate brood rearing now though. Days are getting short, winters coming.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Dave Burrup said:


> The 2:1 and 1:1 mantra of beekeeping is one of the tried and true that I have found from my own experience to be totally false. I have 8 falls behind me now with more than 150 hives being fed all of them Carniolan mutts. *I have never had a hive that stopped brooding because I put 2:1 syrup on them.* Our bees have boxes full of brood until the weather turns cold. If the weather turns warm again they will brood up again. Warm dry falls like the past three have been difficult to get the weight on the hives because they raise so much brood.


2:1 won't _stop _them from laying, it just won't stimulate them to lay if they are tending to shut down due to lack of a flow. 2:1 syrup _can _stop the queen from laying however, if the colony backfills _*all *_the empty brood cells and doesn't leave room for brood. I saw that in those mating nucs I was trying to prep for winter. Too late to do anything about it by then. 

Dave, your experience has been different then mine with syrup strengths. That's just the way my bees respond to different syrup. . In my opinion, you're far better off feeding 4 gallons of 1:1 than 2 gallons of 2:1 if you want drawn frames or laying to grab a gear.



I also have Carnie hybrids.


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## Flatwoods Bee Farm (Nov 1, 2015)

Thank you both for your input. I think at this point I'm leaning toward the notion that my colonies have interbreed with drones from Russian or Carniolan colonies. Feeding 2:1 in the fall is something I've done for years. Here in NC, our main flow is from April till June. After that we have a very short and sweet flow in September if conditions are right. This year it was hot and dry for the fall flow. Hives were light so I starting feeding to at weight. In the past this plan has worked and we've lost very few colonies. The absence of brood just concerns me.


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## Dave Burrup (Jul 22, 2008)

I have had an lot of frames drawn on 2:1 too. Lauri I am not picking at you. I read this forum and many other bee husbandry books and papers. Then I go through the hives looking for verification. In my time as a beekeeper I have found several gospels that in my bee yard are not true. I watch for the strange occurrences too, and it drives me nuts sometimes finding the why. Sometimes the strange catches more of my attention than the normal.


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

Dave Burrup said:


> I have had an lot of frames drawn on 2:1 too. Lauri I am not picking at you. I read this forum and many other bee husbandry books and papers. Then I go through the hives looking for verification. In my time as a beekeeper I have found several gospels that in my bee yard are not true. I watch for the strange occurrences too, and it drives me nuts sometimes finding the why. Sometimes the strange catches more of my attention than the normal.


And that's exactly what a person should do, work with what you actually see in front of YOU, not what the guy across the country is seeing.  
That is what the situation is calling for. The details and circumstances behind the variances are what make the beekeeping puzzle interesting.


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## NH Beekeeper (Jan 18, 2015)

Pollen is the word everyone is looking for/no fresh pollen coming in the queen shuts down. I give them pollen substitute for a few more weeks after the pollen slows down. Seen some coming in with pollen 3 days ago but only about 1-2 hrs of flight time a day now if the full sun hits them to get moving. 1/4 size hamburger patty in some of my 5f nucs does wonders on Italians, carniolans or Russians I have.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Do they really need pollen sub at this time of the year in New Hampshire. I wouldn't give it to them at this time in Vermont. The bees have shut down and gone into winter mode. I've seen some pupae being dragged out from nucs that raised brood late. Aren't they calling it quits for the year. Why get them wound up again? They should have raised their winter cluster by now. Why not save that pollen sub for early spring?

Anyway, just a thought....


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## NH Beekeeper (Jan 18, 2015)

Planning on taking 150 splits to florida for winter at the end of November.

But the original ? Of the guys post was why his queens were not laying? And his location is North Carolina. If he wanted them to lay then pollen would do it.


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## NH Beekeeper (Jan 18, 2015)

I have see pupae on the front boards also but that seems to be there 20 degree night we have been having with the bees clustering hard and loosing brood on the outside frames of the 5f nucs that I transferred to 10f about the first of sept. Most are about 8-9f bees and still 2-3f capped brood.

Stocked up on pollen/have 300# dry just waiting for spring.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Flatwoods Bee Farm said:


> Quick bio. I live in the Piedmont of North Carolina. We have 13 colonies in 3 different locations. Fall flow was not much to speak of so I've been feeding 2:1 syrup to beef up the colonies before they can't feed. Yesterday I was doing my final hive inspections of the year and discovered none of my queens are laying. No eggs, no larvae, no capped brood, nothing. But I visible saw almost all my queens... Please share any ideas as to why. Thanks.


Most beekeepers with Italian bees in Finland would be terrified to find brood at this date. I usually have brood much later(not Italian bees). The time they stop laying is not a race question, it varies a lot within the race.

If the hives are strong and bees look healthy, I would continue feeding until desired weight is reached, give them OA and start waiting for the spring.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Why? 
Because no resources are coming in especially the pollen.
Give them mega bee patty to get the queens laying again for
some winter bees. You will need those in order to replace the older
bees for this coming winter. No pollen or sub less fat reserve for the winter
bees. Some will die early if they don't have the fat this winter. And make sure the queen
have some empty cells to lay in and not be back filled with syrup.
But if you feel they have enough winter bees then leave them alone for now.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Because it's November...


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

November has nothing to do with it. There are some queens that will lay all winter long when they
have the patty sub.
Though this is the late Fall/winter month so the queens are slowing down and should
continue to lay smaller batches of broods. Shutting down completely without the winter
bees is abnormal. They should be making lots of winter bees by now. Mine are still laying and
some are capped already. So stimulate the queens to lay more.

See this one in my hive now:


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

Flatwoods Bee Farm said:


> Quick bio. I live in the Piedmont of North Carolina. We have 13 colonies in 3 different locations. Fall flow was not much to speak of so I've been feeding 2:1 syrup to beef up the colonies before they can't feed. Yesterday I was doing my final hive inspections of the year and discovered none of my queens are laying. No eggs, no larvae, no capped brood, nothing. But I visible saw almost all my queens... Please share any ideas as to why. Thanks.


2:1 syrup does not simulate a nectar flow. 1:1 syrup will. I am feeding 1:1 in Charlotte and my queens are still laying.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>November has nothing to do with it. There are some queens that will lay all winter long when they
have the patty sub.

Maybe in Sacramento. Certainly NOT in Nebraska. I'm guessing not in Locust, North Carolina either. November has EVERYTHING to do with it.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Dave Burrup said:


> The 2:1 and 1:1 mantra of beekeeping is one of the tried and true that I have found from my own experience to be totally false. I have 8 falls behind me now with more than 150 hives being fed all of them Carniolan mutts. I have never had a hive that stopped brooding because I put 2:1 syrup on them. Our bees have boxes full of brood until the weather turns cold. If the weather turns warm again they will brood up again. Warm dry falls like the past three have been difficult to get the weight on the hives because they raise so much brood.


Dave, I don't have near so much experience, but I fully agree. 2:1 rebooted a completely shut down queen in September after our flow stopped. No eggs when I checked, but saw her. Put two gallons of 2:1 on top and checked a few days later... 2.5 frames of brood. But I suspect that my bees are mostly broodless at this point or pretty close to that.

I think maybe it's a pollen flow issue? 



Michael Bush said:


> Maybe in Sacramento. Certainly NOT in Nebraska. I'm guessing not in Locust, North Carolina either. November has EVERYTHING to do with it.


I always love the California/Florida folks. 
We've getting VERY close to windshield scraping weather here.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

My bees are of Italian extraction (their names all end with a vowel at least) and most of them have seriously curtailed if not completely stopped brood production for the year - there are exceptions which I think are mostly caused by the hive demographics. It's Fall, it's getting chilly in the mid-south, it's just what they do. 

If you have kept them fed and managed mite loads you have about as good a chance of overwintering as most of us. If you haven't then (try to do better next year, but for now...) you might consider an OA treatment while they are without brood, and doing mountaincamp sugar - these things have served me well in the past.

Good luck.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

David LaFerney said:


> My bees are of Italian extraction (their names all end with a vowel at least) and most of them have seriously curtailed if not completely stopped brood production for the year - there are exceptions which I think are mostly caused by the hive demographics. It's Fall, it's getting chilly in the mid-south, it's just what they do.
> 
> If you have kept them fed and managed mite loads you have about as good a chance of overwintering as most of us. If you haven't then (try to do better next year, but for now...) you might consider an OA treatment while they are without brood, and doing mountaincamp sugar - these things have served me well in the past.
> 
> Good luck.


X2. G


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Michael Bush said:


> Because it's November...


The word November has such a cold chill to its meaning... Lol

It's a good time of fall to see what has been locked in as a wintering cluster. Basically all that summer growth has died off and not much to add for winter bees.


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## Flatwoods Bee Farm (Nov 1, 2015)

Ian it's not that cold here in North Carolina yet. 69 degrees outside right now... But Canadians have ice fishing. That is something we don't do here...


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>We've getting VERY close to windshield scraping weather here.

That was last week here...


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## Lauri (Feb 1, 2012)

I ran across this photo today, taken late August. Our abrupt end to months of drought and record high temps. Early August rain produced welcome natural feed. This fall was the best yet for me. 
Expecting our first hard frost tonight. Leaves on deciduous trees are almost all down. Had to pick the green tomatoes and bring them in.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Interesting! Now I truly understand the meaning that all beekeeping is local.
At the higher elevation all the tree leaves are turning golden yellow and reddish with a hint of green.
But in the valley we still have greenish leaves. So it is warmer here than other nearby county.
Going to continue to feed my bees on patty sub. and Lauri's sugar bricks through out this 
winter months. No rest for the newly mated Autumn queens now. The late summer Borage that
survived the drought without any watering is about to bloom on yesterday's first real rain of the season.
Borage plants can take our summer drought here all wilted but not dead. They will come back once the
Autumn rains hit again. These are the volunteering seeds that grow in the late Spring time. That means I
can broadcast these seeds onto the nearby grass fields now. And should have a similar growing condition without
my care for them. I wonder what other drought tolerant plants/flowers are there that have the similar growing property?


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

Dave Burrup said:


> I have had an lot of frames drawn on 2:1 too. Lauri I am not picking at you. I read this forum and many other bee husbandry books and papers. Then I go through the hives looking for verification. In my time as a beekeeper I have found several gospels that in my bee yard are not true. I watch for the strange occurrences too, and it drives me nuts sometimes finding the why. Sometimes the strange catches more of my attention than the normal.


I agree with what he is saying. Not a lot of experience but have been feeding 2:1 to every single hive I own since October until they got to 120#. Treated with Maq's in September and then started feeding to get up to weight. 
Have noticed no stoppage of brood but it has slowed way way down in some hives (carny I assume).
Some have very large populations of bees and lots of brood at last check. (must be Italian)

Caught a lot of swarms and did cutouts in August and September so my feeding has been very heavy. Got the swarms and cutouts up to weight. How? 
It's simple. You give them drawn combs if possible.

Using zip-locks on top of the frames. They suck it down fast!


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