# How much is a small cell treatment free nuc worth?



## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

If I wanted to sell a frame of drawn small cell comb, how much would it be worth? How much would a small cell nuc be worth?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

You might want this in its own thread.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

Good point.

I sold two nucs this year for what I thought was a pretty good standard price, $100. But the user Lady Spirit Moon I think it was selling nucs for nearly $300.
When I was buying them, I got a total of six from Don Kuchenmeister. He sells them now for $125 though I wouldn't call his bees treatment-free. He uses essential oils which of all I'd be most okay with which is why I bought from him. The best part with him is that he ships which is really nice.

Conventional nucs seem to range around the $80 to $125 range.


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

The last nucs I purchased were $125 for a 4 frame large cell over-wintered nuc. No frame exchange. From a well thought of commercial bee keeper who also raises his own queens. I can't imagine paying much of a premium for small cell treatment free bees, but some people might. I felt like there was already a premium in the $125 price and I was ok with paying it.


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

Beeweaver has their nucs currently listed listed for 185. They're treatment free but, I don't know about cell size or 
what type of foundation. Goes to show you how demand drives pricing.


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## gunter62 (Feb 13, 2011)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

$125.00 is what I feel is a fair/average price, but I'm a cheepskate. Only the market can tell you what it will bear.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

I know where to get 3 frame nucs for $75 each. I also know places selling nucs for $200 or a tad more. In my opinion, the best price would be somewhere in between at around $110 to maybe $125. I don't see a premium for small cell. To me, it is very easy to convert to small cell if I want it.

DarJones


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

Looks like $125 it is, I went back in time and changed the price on my website a few weeks ago. It seems every year I raise prices on everything. The only thing I have left over is wax and I've never raised the price on that.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

There are people who are intent on getting small cell nucs. If Bee Weaver is getting $185 I see no reason you shouldn't.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

I was checking out BeeWeaver. I could pick up some nucs up in Joplin, if I were in the market. I have been planning for a while to get some of their queens to add to my collection. But this next year is reserved for yours Mike. I know you haven't started the list yet. :anxious smiley:


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

I'm thinking that the prices of the suppliers in Texas went up so they could still make their profit margins from all
the feeding they had to do this year just to keep their bees alive. Both Weavers packages went up and BeeWeavers
nucs went up. But, they'll probably still sell out of all they can produce, even with the higher pricing. They might not
have wanted to but probably had to.


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

I charge $125 for medium or deep nuc, buyers choice. Treatment free for 10 yrs, small and natural cell, locally adapted bees. However, I only sell nucs if I'm asked to as a way of getting good genetics out there rather than make money. I really don't have the time right now to make up nucs on a large scale nor do I advertise nucs, but feel the price is adequate for the time I allocate to them.


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## windfall (Dec 8, 2010)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

Kirk Webster was selling them up here for $200 last year. But that was 8 deep frames in a wood box, with bottom board and division frame feeder. He was refunding $30 or $40 with the return of woodenware.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

I think it depends on what you get. A "5 frame nuc" actually isn't a standard product . . . at least based on what I've bought in four separate states now, lol.

I've gotten one that had two frames of brood, one food, one empty comb, and one foundation. I wasn't Impressed.
I've gotten some that are two or three frames of brood, and one or two frames of food. They are decent.
Others have offered three or four frames of brood, the rest food. They were nice.

Generally speaking, I'd only be interested in buying the latter kind. If it's on the light side, I can keep looking. There are plenty of others selling nucs  Keeping that in mind, most prices drive around the $125 mark, based on what was already said and my own observations. But, let supply and demand work it's magic. If you sell out sooner, sell for more next year.


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## HiveAtYourHome (Aug 16, 2011)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

In Northeast (VT, NY) only 2 sources I know who had any this year $150, $180 treatment free, small/natural cell, local overwintered survivor stock. (SpecialKayme rating system of NICE on 5 frames comprised of)

If you go IPM/natural/organic, large cell, local overwintered a bunch of choices in northeast, $125-$225. (I'm sure the ratings go from not impressed to decent to NICE, but in no relation to price.)
Keep in mind


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## Mustang (Jan 10, 2011)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*



Specialkayme said:


> Others have offered three or four frames of brood, the rest food. They were nice .


 I get $100 for this.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*



Mustang said:


> I get $100


I might need to hang out in KY more often


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

As much as your customers will pay. If you have a premium product (as I assume you would) you should receive a premium price. If they will not pay a price you think is justified for high quality product than reduce the price or market to customers who will value what you provide.


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## DonShackelford (Jan 17, 2012)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

It seems to me that timing has value when considering the cost of nucs. I'm jumping back into bees after a long time out. Found some great deals on late April and May nucs, but opted to pay more and drive 6 hrs one way to buy 25 5 frame nucs in early March. I have 10 queens coming at the end of April. The extra brood cycles should allow me to make 10 splits from the 25 nucs by that time. The funny thing is that I already have one nuc sold in early May for a profit. I don't want to sell any more this year, but it sure shows just how hot of a commodity bees have become.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*



RiodeLobo said:


> If they will not pay a price you think is justified for high quality product than reduce the price


I think it's a much better marketing and business strategy to start low, and increase your prices when you sell out, rather than start high and decrease prices when you have a surplus.

Both accomplish the same goal though . . .


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

I disagree if you under value your services so will your customer. People do care about cost but really care about perceived value. It all depends on what market share you want. You can be Wal Mart or Nieman Marcus. In my business we charge a premium but provide superior services. Basically you can do more units at lower cost or fewer at higher cost. You can develop the business you want within the constrains of the available market.


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## HiveAtYourHome (Aug 16, 2011)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

Please don't take this mindset: There are those that only small cell/natural cell, treatment free, local survivor stock, with overwintered queen (with that nuc) will do and there seems to be a shortage so you can gouge them for whatever price you can dream of and they are at your mercy. They only hope there are enough less choosy customers that will bolt so you keep the prices low. Say, free with delivery and installation included would be nice.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

I do free delivery, which you provide by picking up at my house.   I actually am doing free delivery and installation for a friend who I built the whole hive for.

I have done the 'start off low and then work up' method with honey and nucs. As time goes on, I feel more secure in my offerings and sell out every year so I think it's working, so it's a balance. Still at very low numbers though.

I still am not entirely comfortable offering guarantees because I have nothing against which to measure my relative success or failure. I sold some drawn comb as well which I am now kicking myself for as I am kicking myself for selling those nucs. By selling rather than keeping, I have been meeting one goal at the expense of another, having more hives to produce more in the future.


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

That would be a pretty cool attitude to have. I might go see if the Lincoln/Ford dealer here would have that same mindset.
Instead of driving my beaten up '93 Ford truck. I'll go ask if they'll sell me one of those fancy new Lincoln trucks for the
same $1000 I paid for my Ford. This is an exageration to demonstrate my point. Quality should cost more.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

Yes, it should, but I'm Tesla, not Ford, but with lower overhead. If sold nucs are successful, the price goes up.


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

Many years ago. My late wife and I used to raise Siberian Huskies. Of the puppies we sold, we were able to keep track of a few of
them. We found that the people that paid a premium price were more able and willing to take better care of them. They had more
of an investment in them. So, If someone buys a nuc for $75 or a nuc for $300, Which one do you think they'll take the better
care of or be prepared for? I say this is just to give you a different angle to look at when deciding on a price.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

As the neighbor of a 'dog breeder', you make a good point. By 'dog breeder', what I mean is 'has dogs that mated and now there's a bunch of poorly cared for English Mastiffs running around and pooping on my yard.'

I guess I need to double the price....at least.


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## Steven Ogborn (Jun 3, 2011)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

Worst case scenario that I would forsee is, You don't sell the nucs at a higher price. Put them in full sized boxes. Now you have single
brood chamber hives for sale. Go a up smidgen on the price to make a profit margin for the bigger equipment. And the very worst case,
your hive count might expand for next year.


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## RiodeLobo (Oct 11, 2010)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*



Solomon Parker said:


> I guess I need to double the price....at least.


As long as you are giving the customer a high quality produce (and from everything I know of you on Beesource I would expect nothing less) I think that is a good idea. And at double the price if you only sell half you are still far ahead.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

I think you need to be honest about what you have invested as far as time and money and don't be shy about recovering that. That doesn't mean you are gouging anyone, you are just asking to be compensated fairly for your work. I agree you should price it higher than a typical nuc. It would be worth twice as much to me...


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

My main concern is my fragile reputation which is still in its infancy. I am selling a nuc to a friend this spring and I built him a hive and the whole caboodle. He thought it would be a good idea to have a screened bottom board but I don't use them and figured he didn't need one either. But if I think about it now, he really should get one. If a hive I sold him dies next winter, he's gonna look at me and say 'I told you there should have been a screened bottom board' even though the hive shouldn't need one. It's like a doctor who orders an x-ray just because the patient wants it even though it's not necessary and he obviously won't be blamed for the heightened risk for cancer a couple decades down the road. If the hive dies without one, he's going to raise an eyebrow. If the hive dies with one, not so much. 

Too bad I didn't get many answers to the OP. I ended up selling him 15 frames of drawn comb for $5 per. I regret it every time I look at the hive and fairly regularly between times as well. It's not the money, I'm probably going to need those frames and I won't have them. Experience is something you get right after you need it. At least I have about 340 other ones that are in the hives in the yards. I'm going to need about 200 more drawn to meet my goals this year. I guess 15 isn't so much of a deal.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

Methinks you are fretting a bit too much about this Sol. Anytime I have sold nucs I just tell them that all I can guarantee is that there is a laying queen in there and I encourage you to check it out for yourself at the time of delivery, after that there are just too many variables. There are always a lot of prices for nucs floating around this site, with the treatment free angle though I really couldnt say, you will just have to be the trend setter there.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

Solomon, I think you are being realistic and will increase price as the value of your product is proven.
The difference between a Lincoln and a Ford has a lot to do with reputation and track record.
As for a fair price. I ahve been offered a 5 frame deep nuc for $125. I also have gathered the information that causes me to think a frame of bees is worth $20. so 5 frames is $100. the seller is supplying the nuc and I consider that worth at least $25. You are offering more, to certain people, than just a nuc full of frames. I woudl not be included in your prospective customers as I do not put a premium on small cell or treatment free. But many do. I believe you should add at least a small increase just for that fact alone. Maybe $150 to $175. increase to the $200 plus price as your reputation develops. My opinion about small cell and treatment free is it is just another method of watching bees die. But that is me. It is hardly true that everyone agrees with that opinion so the market is real. Best of luck in filling that nitch.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

Try looking at this a.little differently.

You have a nuc....its yours, untreated, and it belongs to you. Can you pretty much count on 30lbs of honey from that nuc (even if stripping out all the honey and combining the nuc with a stronger colony) ? Do you have a market for treatment free honey at $10/lb? Can you sell the queen for $25? If so, that nuclear can produce $325 for you...you get to keep the comb....you get first dibs on the queen if she is a standout...you keep all the equipment. Yes, there is some work and some risk that the nuc might not be productive or die.....but a pretty good bet that it can produce real income for you without much work...and it could be a boomer, producing enough bees to setup another 4-6 nucs and draw more comb for you.
Unless you have nucs coming out of your ears, why would you sell for less.than the nuc is actually worth to you?

Deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*



Solomon Parker said:


> My main concern is my fragile reputation which is still in its infancy. I am selling a nuc to a friend this spring and I built him a hive and the whole caboodle. He thought it would be a good idea to have a screened bottom board but I don't use them and figured he didn't need one either.


The customer is always right. Give him what he wants. I mean Sell him what he wants. Then when it dies, "Not my fault."

Reputation? If you are worried, don't sell anything. Your reputation will proceed you and follow you and there is not very much you can do about it, except maybe maintain your own integrity. People will still make up their own minds based on their own peculiar/personal point of view. You will be okay. Don't worry too much about it.

I like both Dean's and DanielY's opinions.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

deknow, along with the potential profits you also accept the risk and time to manage. not all that profit is free. TI is also why you could not sell a nuc that could potentially make $325 for $325 you are avoiding the additional risk and cost. The nuc as is is only worth what it is worth. you don't sell it's potential value.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

You will never know how much you could have sold it for until you get turned down consistently. The nuc isn't going to spoil. You don't need to sell it to sustain your livelihood. Set the price rediculously high and you will find someone willing to buy it, because it must be the best nuc ever since it is so expensive. 

You will also make more per nuc.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

I like Dean's take, thats why I am not in the business of selling nucs.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

Sure there is risk...there is always risk. We've never had a problem with credit cards, but have gotten both bad checks and counterfeit bills at times...selling isn't risk free either. Its also conceivable that one could get sued by a customer for much more than the selling price...costly even if you win.
But a nuclear is of value to me. Regardless of what you want to pay, I can (and should) decide for myself what I need to part with it). It also (if you are honest and genuine) communicates.your confindence in the product you are selling if you canturn down an offer because you are willing to bet that the product would turn you a greater profit.

Deknow


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

...this is also one of the factors that has been considered when we sell queens.

What would I have to get for a mated queen (mated and proved for a month in a mating nuc) if I were to consider what I could be getting for honey produced by the bees that are sitting on that queen for a month?

I can raise 30 cells easily in a 2 story ventilated nuc with frames in the top box only and a bunch of shaken nurse bees....I can replenish this with a frame of capped brood from time to time and keep going. Add a finisher and I can crank out 100 queens a week without too much trouble. Cheap enough.

But 100 mating nucs a week....and only reusing them after a month? Such queens would either have to be expensive, or a charity project coming out of our pockets.

There are other reasons we like selling virgins, but the thing that prevents us from selling mated queens is the cost of the resources (which is based on the market value of our products).

deknow


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*



Daniel Y said:


> The nuc as is is only worth what it is worth. you don't sell it's potential value.


This sounds right. You could sell some of it's potential value, but most of it will come at the hands, care and time of the new owner. If you charged for that up front, the buyer would be paying for all the work you would do for that optimal potential as well as the actual work they will have to do to achieve that potential. You won't find anyone buying a new or used vehicle willing to pay thousands of dollars more based on it's potential for income. Remember, it also has potential to fail!


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

...in the case of a good nuc (of the quality Sol would sell), it is very little work to put a 5 frame box of foundation on top and remove brood as they get overcrowded....bait up with one comb and use foundationless and do cut comb....put them in an old box with some new pf100s or foundation and get some great new comb drawn....do as mike palmer does and use them as "brood factories"....none of this is much work. You can keep many in a rather small area. A two story hive booming with bees requires management and equipment (honey supers)...but good nucs ready to pop will do well almost no matter what you do...even if they swarm, you _still_ have a nuc.

deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: How does a beekeeper, currently treating on LC, move to a SC treatment free progr*

The worth of something and what one may be willing to sell it for are two different things.

I have plenty of customers who buy nucs from me and at the end of the season they tell me how much honey they got off of that nuc. Had I kept that nuc, maybe I would have gotten something similar, maybe not. 

But, if I can make 60lbs of honey off of a 5 frame nuc, that would potentially be $120.00 to $180.00 income compared to what I sold the nuc for. The sale of the nuc is gauranteed income to me when I sell the nuc. That is worth something.

My nucs are selling for $100.00 each this year and I have had no one balk at that price. If they go to $120.00 next year I wonder?


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

..but Sol's nucs (and our nucs...which we are not selling) are treatment free, the bees would be managed without treatment, the honey would be produced without treatment.

I can't do anything about your prices...but consider if you were getting $10/lb or more (rather than the $1.60-1.80 you seem to be getting)? A 60lb pail is $600.

I'm relatively sure you could devise a plan where you kept 100 nucs (2-4 yards?) with minimal management and pull an average of 20lbs of honey from each without much management or effort on your part. $20k.

deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I agree. Our circumstances are quite different. Your points are valid and accurate.

$600.00 per pail would be great. Do you get that much? This is somewhat Off Topic perhaps, but yours is a niche market, isn't it? How many places are there that would support such a price. PM me if more appropriate. Don't wanna hijack a Thread.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

No, we don't get that for a pail. We have very little of our own honey at this point...what we have is sold only in small jars. We are in a unique situation in that we are already at the markets selling premium honey that isn't local....we can sell whatever we produce in small jars at this point. Even if it is to pricy for some, it shows the customers that we _are_ beekeepers and not flunkies in a booth and adds another taste to the customer experience. It helps with our sales even if it doesn't sell....but it does sell, and it makes it impossible for us to sell nucs or mated queens.

deknow


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Understood.


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## Solomon Parker (Dec 21, 2002)

Thanks guys, great discussion, keep it going.



jim lyon said:


> Methinks you are fretting a bit too much about this Sol.


Perhaps. This is a guy who is a friend and is in a position to steer a lot of local business my way which is good since I don't ship.



deknow said:


> Can you pretty much count on 30lbs of honey from that nuc (even if stripping out all the honey and combining the nuc with a stronger colony) ?


The reason why I'm getting into nucs is my conditions here. There are no commercial beekeepers in this county nor the surrounding ones as far as I know. There's a reason for that, the season is over by June. Last year, I discovered in making splits that I could make a ton of five frame hives even if I couldn't get a drop of honey. After the main flow, the hives shut down completely to about the size of a five frame nuc. If they don't have the honey by then, chances are they're not going to get it. The best I've ever gotten from a hive was two deeps of honey. Average is about one. I get a pretty good price, there's just not all that much to be had.

So my plan this year is to set aside a couple booming hives to try to make a good honey crop and use the rest to make mating nucs and then graduate those into five frame nucs, merge the dinks with the awesomes and sell the rest until I end up with 25 hives for next winter.

Thanks for all the compliments about the quality of my nucs (even if you were joking.) I would not let a hive out of the yard that didn't pass muster. The bees I sell are daughters of the queen in the box. You know what you're getting.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The nuc as is is only worth what it is worth. you don't sell it's potential value.

I see your point, but the only reason anyone buys a nuc is it's potential value... if it was never going to be any more than a nuc they wouldn't bother.


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