# Three dead hives...



## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

Well, that's it.

Started last spring with one booming hive that managed to make it through the winter (we had combined our two hives in the fall.) Bought a 4# package in the spring for the empty hive. It started out well, but then was the victim of robbing and the queen was lost. In the meantime I had been working on building a new hive, so I ordered two queens and used one for the queen-less colony and used the other to do a split from the booming colony. 

I don't know if the timing was bad, it was just a bad year in this area, or what, but none of the three did all that well. Going into the fall none of them had much by way of brood, all were fairly small colonies, but they did have stores that I thought might be sufficient. We decided to see how they'd do. It didn't end well.

Late in October our hives were inspected by the county bee inspector; Rhonda was here and had to show him how to handle bars of comb. All three hives were clean; no mites, no hive beetles, no diseases.

By the end of November the colony that we'd made the split from had died. There were stores of honey and pollen left. We took those bars and split them between the other two hives.

Sometime in late December/early January I found that the requeen-ed package had died; it appeared that the remaining colony was helping themselves to the stores.

Today I checked and found the last one was dead. 

I suppose that if we had combined the three into one we'd still have a live colony; don't know. But now what?

We've decided that we'll give it another go. I'll see about ordering some packages for the spring. This was our second year and we've yet to have any honey from our hives. Not a big deal, I guess, but had hoped to get some by now. We may pull some of the honey that's left in the hives before we put packages in.

A friend of mine asked last month if I was interested in a new Langstroth hive and some equipment that someone he knew was giving away. I said I was; don't know if we'll try it with foundation or foundation-less frames. Not sure when we'll get that, though.

Last year we admittedly did very little hive management. I started a new job that resulted in my often getting home as it was getting dark, and my wife didn't check on them very often, either. I've told her that if we're going to make another expensive investment in bees we're going to have to pay more attention to them this year. We'll see how it goes.

I hope everyone else's hives are doing better than ours! 

Cheers,
Tom


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

I run langs and Ive lost 2 of 7 so far. hoping for the best with the others though 2 are small, but holding their own. Comes with the territory. Keep your chin up. Good Luck. G


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Tango Yankee said:


> no mites


Such a hive or hives do not exist in north America. I am not trying to be difficult but....mites are the most likely cause, either directly or indirectly.....in my opinion.


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

beemandan said:


> Such a hive or hives do not exist in north America.


I understand that; I was reporting the findings of the inspector (or lack of findings.) However, everything I've read about mites has indicated that they do need some time to build up to a point where they will kill a colony. I wouldn't expect that two new colonies with breaks in the brood cycle would have had enough mites to kill them. 

I could be wrong, of course. 

Cheers,
Tom


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

Sorry you lost your hives. Don't give up yet. All of us have or will lose hives. It's a bad feeling even when you've been doing it a while or have several hives. I've lost two hives (went queen less then robbed out) and two nucs (robbed out). Almost all of my hives were lighter than usual going into winter and feeding syrup in the fall didn't seem to help. They have about five pounds of sugar on each right now along with what stores they have. We're starting to get some pollen and probably nectar too from maples on warm days. I'm hoping the rest of my hives make it to spring. All are active on warm days.


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

Gary,

We also fed syrup in the fall and had sugar in the hives. The last time our last hive was active I observed pollen on some of the bees coming in; bright yellow. No idea where it was coming from in mid-January! 

We're not giving up; we do enjoy it. But it's been a darned expensive hobby so far! 

Cheers,
Tom


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## ccar2000 (Aug 9, 2009)

It took me three years to get my first hive through the winter. Just keep trying. I feel that one has to come up with their own routine that fits their hive's individual biotope.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

It sounds like varroa mites to me. How did the inspector determine that there were NO mites?

I myself agree with what Beemandan wrote above in post #3.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

beemandan said:


> Such a hive or hives do not exist in north America. I am not trying to be difficult but....mites are the most likely cause, either directly or indirectly.....in my opinion.


incorrect. Michael bush, Sam Comfort and plenty of others have top bar hives in the US and even in canada that do just fine. 

my lang is actually a hived swarm from an overwintered top bar 

blaming the hive and not other reasons is just an easy out by people who usually don't have top bar hives.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Hives doing just fine, such as with Michael and Sam, is not the same as hives having NO varroa mites. The hives have mites, but the bees take care of them in those locations with the management practices of those beekeepers and with the genetics of bees they are running. The number of people being successful at treatment free beekeeping is a very small number compared to the total number of beekeepers in the country. Being lang or tbh has no bearing on the issue at hand.

The original poster stated that the inspector said there were NO mites. I want to hear how that inspector came to that conclusion.


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

RayMarler said:


> Hives doing just fine, such as with Michael and Sam, is not the same as hives having NO varroa mites. The hives have mites, but the bees take care of them in those locations with the management practices of those beekeepers and with the genetics of bees they are running. The number of people being successful at treatment free beekeeping is a very small number compared to the total number of beekeepers in the country. Being lang or tbh has no bearing on the issue at hand.
> 
> The original poster stated that the inspector said there were NO mites. I want to hear how that inspector came to that conclusion.


I guess i read Beemandan's statement wrong.. i thought he was saying that top bar hives weren't viable in the US. 

I do agree that totally mite free is probably doubtful. and being a top bar doesn't mean you cant treat either.. you could probably do OAV or strips easy enough.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

RayMarler said:


> Hives doing just fine, such as with Michael and Sam, is not the same as hives having NO varroa mites. The hives have mites, but the bees take care of them in those locations with the management practices of those beekeepers and with the genetics of bees they are running. The number of people being successful at treatment free beekeeping is a very small number compared to the total number of beekeepers in the country. Being lang or tbh has no bearing on the issue at hand.
> 
> The original poster stated that the inspector said there were NO mites. I want to hear how that inspector came to that conclusion.


Im with you Ray, I think, "I dont see any mites", or "this hive is handling the mites", perhaps, "you dont appear to have a mite problem at this point" could all be realistic conclusions, to say *"No Mites"* would seem like a false security blanket being handed to a trusting beek to me. G


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

RayMarler said:


> I want to hear how that inspector came to that conclusion.


Beats me. I wasn't there. Have the inspection sheet around here somewhere... I'm not going to worry about it because I know that there are going to be mites, even if not very many. But if a new package of bees with a second break in the brood cycle due to losing the queen can be so overwhelmed by mites from the very beginning that they can't grow a large enough colony to survive the first winter then I don't see the point in trying again, do you? Seems like throwing good money after bad. 

We had three colonies. One was a package, one had overwintered and we'd split it, the third was the split. None of them did well after that point. Maybe we shouldn't have done the split. Maybe the timing of the split was bad and we were going into a dearth--but they didn't seem interested in the syrup. 

Personally, I think our mistake was in deciding to let things ride and see what would happen rather than try to combine the hives like we did the previous year. Now, if this year we start with three new packages and once again have problems with the colonies not growing like they should we may have to consider that perhaps this just isn't a good area for bees.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

In my short experience Tango, beekeeping is an ever flowing learning curve. Coulda been the split, coulda been alot of things. All I can do is manage my hives the best I know how to give the bees their best chance to survive. Even if I could say I feel like I did everything perfect,(which I cant this year) I still expect to experience losses. Losing all your bees sucks. I hope I have enough make it through to soldier on with winter survivors, which I believe I will. In the end, only you can decide whether keeping bees is worth the time and expense. If I was keeping bees for honey at this point, I would be deeply in the red. They interest me, and in the end, for me, wins and losses, its time and money well spent. Good Luck. G


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## JakeDatc (Apr 19, 2010)

you could see about finding some swarms. hell just leaving those hives out is a good enough swarm trap.. and put an ad on CL and see what you get in the area. Swarms are slightly more proven than packages


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I've heard people say that brood breaks helps to control varroa. I've heard people doing brood breaks for varroa control, but they still lose the hives. I can't say what did or did not work for them, all I can do is tell you how brood breaks have worked for me, and the conclusions I have come to from the experiences.

When I do brood breaks as a varroa control method, here's what happens for me in my location with the local bees I can get here... The hives still die. If anything, the brood breaks makes the varroa problem even worse, at least in some instances. So I started studying varroa, their life cycles and brooding cycles. I've come to a few conclusions from my experiences and reading.

I make the brood break, I've done it many different ways, at least four different ways, and I've always had the same result. Hives die. So what happens inside the hive when they get a brood break. There are adult varroa on the adult bees. There are varroa breeding and feeding on capped bee pupa. There are varroa getting ready to enter bee larva as they are being capped. Now, make a brood break. Over time as the bee brood cycle progresses, for each bee pupa that is infested, you get 2 more mites come out, or close to it. They add to the adult mite population on the adult bees. More larva get close to capped pupa stage each day, this goes on for 12 days. More and more adult varroa each day from pupa emerging, more and more varroa entering the remaining upcoming pupa. After three weeks, all bee brood is emerged, no more bee brood. Now the hive has very high numbers of adult varroa. So, now what happens... The new queen bee starts laying. There are so many adult varroa that the first rounds of brood get hit really hard with varroa. They get hit so hard that the virus's associated with varroa get to critical stages, Now I've got more deformed wings than I had before the brood break. As time goes on, more bee brooding, more mites, more deformed wings, brood is real spotty, and over time I now start getting crawler bees, paralysis virus, black hairless bees with undersized abdomens, etc. You get the picture. In my opinion from my experiences here with my bees in my location, brood breaks to not help at all with varroa, it might even make the problem worse. If others have success with it fine, but it does NOT work for me, and I cringe every I hear someone say they use brood breaks for varroa control. Managing (killing) drone brood on a regular basis for varroa control does help much much better for varroa control than brood breaks do... once again, for me in my location with my bees.

Tango, may I suggest that you contact some local beekeepers there, perhaps in a local club, and talk to the locals about what they do for success in your area. Try to talk to the beekeepers that have 5 years or more experience. Try to find a local mentor. At one time in the past I had a local mentor that I worked under for free, helping him with his bees in his location for 2 years, boy did I learn a lot.

Tango, keeping bees is about feeding when needed, you can't keep livestock or any animal or insect by not keeping track of feed needs, and supplementing their feed when needed. Some areas need no feeding of bees, so long as management compliments the seasonal flows. Find a way to fight varroa that works with your philosophy. Don't split if the bees are not booming in their hives, you weaken them too much too late in the year if splits are during dearths or too late in the bee season. Learn your flow times and strength. I know that there are very successful beekeepers in Ohio, try to hook up with some of them. Look for a local club. Maybe there are some good Ohio beekeepers here in the forums that can give you more local advice. OK, I'm done now, but just let me say one more thing... Don't give up yet, and I hope you have very very good success this year with more bees.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

Tom,
I am sorry for your losses, I have a strong feeling that the death of your hives was due to Varroa mites, you will need to intervene early in the fall if you want to protect your investment, I say this from experience and want to give you the benefit of what I have learned from keeping bees here in Southern Ohio so please consider the following.......

I give my 10 hives four OAV treatments during August and one treatment at Thanksgiving so the hives will have a chance to build up a strong healthy bee population for the coming winter. The fall of 2013 I deviated and treated them in October which resulted in the loss of one hive in January and nearly loosing the others as well, after finding the remaining hives in a weakened state I wrapped them together in blankets and tarps to conserve their heat which saved them from certain death.

This past year I went back to early intervention and did the four treatments in October and one on Thanksgiving, at present the hives are very strong and doing well, I check them weekly with a stethoscope and listen to the humming, if this is done weekly you can easily gauge how the hive is doing, I also do a monthly weight check as well.

This is what works for me to keep the hives healthy and thriving, I hope it is a help to you and I hope you do well this coming season


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Tango Yankee said:


> I wouldn't expect that two new colonies with breaks in the brood cycle would have had enough mites to kill them.
> 
> I could be wrong, of course.


 Brood breaks *may* temporarily slow the mite explosion but by season's end....in my experience, objective testing rarely shows a significant difference between them. 
Folks will say a new package should go its first season without mites becoming destructive. That may have been true at one time but I don't believe it is good advice today.
The only way I can see for you to know if mites are a problem is to come up with an objective testing procedure and plan. Now the 'if you aren't going to treat there's no reason to test' folks will be coming out of the woodwork but....for a beginning beekeeper, in my opinion, their advice is awful. Even if you don't intend to treat....how else can you determine which management strategies and which genetics are worth your time and money?
Good luck.


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## Rube63 (Jun 28, 2010)

If you have a problem with the thought of treating bees then think of it as killing mites. If you have something in your hives that is going to kill the bees and do nothing that is mistreating bees in my opinion.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

biggraham610 said:


> Im with you Ray, I think, "I dont see any mites", or "this hive is handling the mites", perhaps, "you dont appear to have a mite problem at this point" could all be realistic conclusions, to say *"No Mites"* would seem like a false security blanket being handed to a trusting beek to me. G


Can an expert really give an accurate assessment without a sugar roll alchohol wash or some other measurement? If they could I doubt if the commercial guys would be wasting their time on such things - but apparently they do.

My experience with hives that "might" have sufficient stores is that they probably don't. 

The way I get good winter survival is by keeping them healthy and happy all year - but especially starting in early summer. You want to avoid ever having to nurse them back to health.


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## WWW (Feb 6, 2011)

David LaFerney said:


> The way I get good winter survival is by keeping them healthy and happy all year


Truer words were never spoken, there are a number of things that can cause a winter dead out such as not enough winter stores (or pollen stores), high mite and (or viral load), a poor queen (or no queen), just to name a few. Beekeeping is not as easy as it was years ago, one must stay on top of what is happening in the hive year around and it really helps to know your seasons and how the hives are reacting to them.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

David LaFerney said:


> Can an expert really give an accurate assessment without a sugar roll alchohol wash or some other measurement? If they could I doubt if the commercial guys would be wasting their time on such things - but apparently they do.
> 
> My experience with hives that "might" have sufficient stores is that they probably don't.
> 
> The way I get good winter survival is by keeping them healthy and happy all year - but especially starting in early summer. You want to avoid ever having to nurse them back to health.


Well said. G


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## Tango Yankee (Mar 15, 2013)

I appreciate the words of advice, everyone.

As I noted in my original post, one of the likely causes was simply not enough attention was paid to them during the past year. I started a new job that has been (and continues to be) highly demanding of my time. It doesn't help that it's almost an hour commute. Unfortunately, my wife wasn't as involved during the last year as she was the first year, either. After I found we'd lost the third colony I sat down with her and told her that if we're going to give it another go we both need to pay attention and make the time to manage the hives properly.

We are members of a beekeeper club, and though we're the hairy oddballs for having top bar hives we have learned a lot there. There isn't a club down in our part of Ohio so we hooked up with the Scioto Valley Beekeepers Association up in Circleville when we started. We're the southernmost beekeepers in the club. Last year there was even a live demonstration during a meeting on how to do a sugar roll. We'll incorporate that check into our routines this year.

We would, of course, prefer not to have to incorporate any chemical treatments into our hives but then again I imagine that applies to every beekeeper out there. Should we find we are indeed having a mite problem we'll have to make the decision as to what to do about it at that time.

Last year I'd hoped that we'd get a swarm into our empty hive but no dice. There doesn't seem to be many bees in this area--it wasn't until we started keeping them that we started seeing bees on a regular basis. I'm going to order packages, but if in the meantime we do get a swarm I'll use one of the packages in the new Lang a friend of mine said he'd give to us.

Cheers,
Tom


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Good Luck Tom. G


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## B52EW (Jun 3, 2013)

Hang in there...


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

RayMarler said:


> In my opinion from my experiences here with my bees in my location, brood breaks to not help at all with varroa, it might even make the problem worse. If others have success with it fine, but it does NOT work for me, and I cringe every I hear someone say they use brood breaks for varroa control.


Good post Ray. I couldn't agree more. The timing and the math just doesn't make sense.


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## scituatema (Aug 30, 2014)

When I heard that brood break method to fight with varroa first, my reaction was oh really, but how ! Cannot still understand it.


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

Sorry for the loss of your hives, but yes keep trying. I don't think anyone has recommended this yet, but how about getting local bees this year? You have plenty of drawn comb so a shaken split from local mutts would really take off. Find someone from your local club and explain what is going on and see if they will help you.

I have found a significant difference in my package bee hives vs. the ones I have from local beeks. I was just in my hives yesterday for a quick peak and the local mutts are doing far better.


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## Jon Wolff (Apr 28, 2013)

It's possible that the hives didn't all die from the same causes. In winter, excessive moisture in the hive kills bees. I don't know how quickly your winter weather set in this year, or how cold it gets in Ohio, but did you notice any mold in your hives or on the combs? Were any of the hives excessively wet inside?


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## Apismellifera (Oct 12, 2014)

beemandan said:


> Folks will say a new package should go its first season without mites becoming destructive. That may have been true at one time but I don't believe it is good advice today.y?
> Good luck.


I was lulled a bit by this and very surprised that the swarm I picked up in July had massive varroa suddenly in the fall. I did an oa dribble, the weather has been mild and they seem to be doing well, I do see some varroa on the bottom board.

I've been pondering what else to do, I'm not so convinced that grease patties do much of anything and my bees don't seem to be so enthusiastic about homemade hbh in syrup. Powdered sugar drench once in awhile? Already have oiled bottom tray.

Tango, I went in not intending to do much intervention but I ended up feeding 2-1 syrup and doing the oa dribble in the fall. After brood stops, the oa dribble is easy and cheap and done correctly apparently kills off 90-95% of the mites, and there is no brood to worry about, either in terms of the oa (slows 'em down apparently) or for the varroa to hide in. I suddenly had a bunch of dead varroa and that was my trigger, but I can't figure out what was responsible for the pre treatment major drop.

So, maybe keep a closer eye going into fall, feed if they're not heavy and do some mite counts. The downside of the dribble is that you can only do that once a year, apparently preferably in the fall/early winter.

Another plug for bar spacers - makes applying oa dribble or powdered sugar super easy without having to disturb the bars. Major plus.


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