# Langtroth to Top Bar Hive



## Terra Vita (Mar 4, 2012)

_I had writen this earlyer but maybe I went preview post instead of post, I'f it's a duplicate i'm sorry I looked on my account for my threads and It wasnt there..._

I currently have a langstroth hive overwintering and I recently built a TBH and i'm looking to transfer them when the season comes.

I made a "Transition Box" that fits in my TBH with a queen excluder on one end (TBH entrance side) and it fits 6 lang frames. it can easy move up or down my TBH 

I'm just not sure what to do and also when, here are my thoughts...

- put the 6 best brood frames from my lang into my transition box including the queen.
- let them work on the top bar making comb for a couple of days
- once and if they do work some comb I can transfer the queen on the TBH side locking her away from the brood forcing the bees out and working on the Top bars
- let the brood come out and the rest of the bees then and only then I can remove the transition box?

-I might be able to use the transition box to feed the hive with the rest of my lang frames, maybe put them in there upside down so they take but dont use?

anyways as you can see i'm not exactly certain how to do this transfer, i'ts been difficult to find threads specific on this, any help will be greatly appreciated.

Here are some pictures of the transition box in my TBH...


----------



## Terra Vita (Mar 4, 2012)

Maybe it;s too much info on one post, ill try to do a couple of questions at a time 

first..

Which frames should I put in my transition box when doing the transfer?
all 6 frames of brood?

second..

does 10 Top Bar sounds ok for them to start with the transition box?


Thanks in advance
Tommy
Terra Vita


----------



## quevernick (Feb 22, 2011)

Would the top bar from a langstroth frame fit across your tbh? If so you could put a couple (just have to manual space them) in the broodnest area of your langstroth hive and then when they've been built out and layed in you could transfer them to your tbh. If you catch them early enough you might not even have to cut any of the comb to make it fit. Then you could shake off some bees and let them raise a queen or move the queen over. I did the reverse when starting some medium langstroth hives from my tbh.

I'm curious if having the langstroth frames perpendicular to the tbh frame will cause a problem. I'm sure the bees will figure it out but I wonder if they will draw the tbh frames straight.


----------



## Terra Vita (Mar 4, 2012)

my Top Bars are 22" long so around 19" comb maybe. mmm Ill have to check on that tomorow to see how much trouble it would be to let them comb out a couple of top bars in the lang hive if thats what yours saying.

Kinda long to fit or jury rig in there... mmmm somehow when I built my TBH I made sure they fit height wise but guess I drops trying to fit the lang lenghtwise it would of been way too big in there.


----------



## Terra Vita (Mar 4, 2012)

I'm a little iffy about it being perpendicular as well, I know "The Garden Hive" makes a box like that for their hives specificaly for this.. but havent seen it done or even read on how they do it.

now that I think I might of misread your post.. you meant taking lang frames without the bottom or sides putting them in the brood nest and putting those on some top bars after? Ill have to think on that too.

but in theory I would want all the best brood frames in my TBH right? ill try to leave enough so they can requeen then ill give away the hive.


----------



## quevernick (Feb 22, 2011)

Yeah the 19" bars wouldn't really fit all that well in a 22" tbh  I made my tbh to fit 19" bars knowing that I would eventually try a langstroth hive. Looking at it now I wish I had gone with tanzanian instead of kenyan hive and made the dimensions similar to a medium langstroth frame. It's kind of a pain moving comb between the two.

Is your langstroth hive foundationless? If your planning on getting rid of the langstroth entirely it might be worth doing a cutout to get as much of the comb as possible. If it was me I'd keep both of them. I like my Lang's and TBH's for different reasons and wouldnt get rid of either at this point


----------



## Terra Vita (Mar 4, 2012)

I'm only planning on keeping my TBH and giving my lang to my friend, that's why i'm trying to get as much info as possible so I dont screw up my current colony/queen and still have the lang being able to requeen before I move her at his palce. I've just talked in the chat for a little while with a great man that helped me with this info, seems like the box should do just fine with my idea...

so thanks for brainstorming with me Nick.

So my new questions would be..

*does 10 top bars sound fair to start with?* and


could I use my transition box as a "feeder" puting honey frames from my lang in there to feed my bees, but here is the catch... I dont wont me bees to rework the langs just take from them so..
*would putting the honey frames upside down work?* i've read on this before but can't remember, I would think the honey would just flow out and I know the beew might rework the frames if left in there long enough.


----------



## quevernick (Feb 22, 2011)

From my experience they usually work drawing out comb on about 3-4 bars at a time. So 10 would work but you could probably get away with a few less and just add them as needed. Im guessing this would also depend on flow and the size of your top bar so YMMV. 

I've never done it but from what I understand if you turn the frame upside down and let it sit the honey will all drip out eventually. How are you planning on feeding your bees in the TBH? You might just give them 1 frame of honey and start feeding them in the TBH or if you've got 6 frames with a good combination of honey and brood just put all 6 of those in and make sure they have plenty of feed in the TBH feeder. The other option would be to wait til you've got a good flow going and just let them take care of it themselves.


----------



## Terra Vita (Mar 4, 2012)

Awesome, souds like a good plan, ill take a couple of top bars off to start and ill just try and give them a good combination of frames to start with and ill just let them bee  I think that would pretty much answer what I needed to confirm, thanks again Nick I'll try and post pics and vids of my transfer and the process after, now it's just a waiting game


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

That method of transfer will work just fine. I've done it that way myself, and I think its the best way to transfer. The fact that the lang frames are perpendicular doesn't seem to matter at all to the bees. 

I've been meaning to post pictures and explanations on what I did for a while and just haven't gotten around to it. I will at some point.


Adam


----------



## Terra Vita (Mar 4, 2012)

Thank you Adam, takes weight of my shoulders everytime the idea gets confirmed, how many top bars were you using to start? also a quick break up of technique would be great.

Thanks in advance


----------



## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

But, Adam, didn't you have some trouble getting the bees to shift from the lang frames and start building on the top bars?


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

DeeAnna,

I had no problem getting them to build on the bars. They did that almost immediately, and the queen was out and laying in the new comb right away. The problem when I initially did it, was that just about the time the brood emerged from the frames, the queen went right back in there and laid them full of eggs again.

Now I've got it figured out. 

The key is to have a piece of queen excluder which can cover the opening between your insert and your top bars. You also want the opening between the insert and the bars to be near the top, that encourages the bees to build right outside the opening on the first bar, and is more attractive for the queen to move to. As soon as they have comb going, she will come out, as she has no room to lay on the frames. All you have to do is put a bit of excluder over that opening, and then mark your calender for about 2 1/2 weeks or so to time the emergence of the brood. Once the brood has emerged from those cells in the frames, you can shake everyone off the frames before they fill them in too much with nectar. 

So you take the frames out, then you can just set them outside and let the bees clean them out.

That's the least disruptive. If you don't feel like waiting for the queen to move herself, you can move her out of the insert once combs are started in the top bar section, and put some excluder over the opening to the insert. But remember - the excluder only goes on the opening AFTER the queen has moved or been moved to the top bars!

And that'll do it.

Adam


----------



## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

"...how many top bars were you using to start?..."

I don't know if you realize this ... maybe you do, if so, my apologies ... but in a TBH, you should put ALL of the bars in the hive so the bars form a complete cover over the entire hive. The only exception to this would be removing one bar from one end of the hive if you want to have a top entrance to the hive, a la Michael Bush. If you don't want a top entrance, then cover the entire hive top with bars.

(I also want to add that the lang frames should have some kind of solid cover over the top of them too. The gaps between pairs of frames and between the outer frames and the sides of the hive should be covered. Some people will use a heavy piece of cloth or a piece of thin plywood or the like. Again, my apologies for stating the obvious, if you have this figured out already ... but it's possible that others reading this thread might not realize this.)

That said, if your point in asking this question is that you want to restrict the number of bars available to the bees, use a follower board to partition off the bars you don't want the bees to get to. 

What is the magic number of bars to give them access to? It doesn't matter. Honestly. Give them access to 10 bars if that makes sense to you. Or 3 or 4. Or give them access to the entire hive cavity. It really doesn't matter -- the bees will figure it out just fine. They like building comb side by side for efficiency and warmth, so they won't build one comb 5" away from another and the like if you give them "too much" room.

What DOES matter is that you have to encourage the bees to build comb correctly -- meaning straight along the bars. They can really get creative with comb orientation, if you aren't there to encourage them to build straight. They can easily build several combs crosswise across the bars in just a day or two during a strong nectar flow.

This can happen even if they have only 2 or 3 bars available for them to build on. Or they can build straight comb beautifully with all the bars available to them.


----------



## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

"...I had no problem getting them to build on the bars...."

I stand corrected. Thanks, Adam!


----------



## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

Terra,

I put my lang insert way at the back of the hive, giving the bees as many bars between the insert and the entrance as I could. I also had some drawn comb, but I didn't put that right outside the entrance. I put it another bar in, so that the bees built a new comb between the insert and that old comb. I had a window in both the hive box, AND the insert, so I could watch the progress closely, and I knew right away when the queen moved. My mistake was thinking she wouldn't go back into the insert. I never used an excluder, and just as the brood was emerging and I was preparing to remove the frames, whe filled them right back up and I had to wait again.

Adam


----------



## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

Adam -- Maybe your Lang-to-TBH method should go in the communally written book we're all compiling about TBH management?  --DeeAnna


----------



## Terra Vita (Mar 4, 2012)

awesome info, I do have an excluder on my lang adapter already, I was planning on keeping the queen locked in there until they make just hint of comb on the top bars then id move her myself to the other side so she won't be able to get back to the lang frames, and yes once the brood is out id take the frames and the adapter out.. my biggest mystake is probably having a 4" by 4" excluder at the bottom of the hive instead of the top.

ll probably stick with 10 top bars to start and see from there, it might be hard to see in the pictures but my top bars are not the actual ceiling of the hive, the bees can and will go on top of them to move in and out of the hive, They are some kind of hybrid bars between top bars (with the guides) and a lang with the 3/8" gab between bars for them to move around.

I have a glass cover on top to close it off and makes for easy check ups without interfering. and your right about making sure they start straingth that's a recurring tip that comes out. probably easyer to see from my other post in the top bars forum.

Thanks a bunch everyone. I'm really appreciating the help and support beesource forums have given so far.

Thanks again
Tommy
Terra Vita


----------

