# 2nd attempt --19 green cups



## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Hi, All!

After the first attempt at grafting, my results isn't that good.
So this time I try the dry graft method without using the RJ to
prime the cell cups. Out of 19 cups I got 10 accepted. Don't worry
about using the size of the larvae because the bees will naturally select
the smallest larvae to grow them. If 5 queens made it back and laying this
time I will have some good local genetics to work with. The Russian mutts have
some interesting allogrooming traits that I'm interested in. Not bad to keep the mites
at bay either. 
What I found out this time was that the bee density and where you put the accepted cells
have a lot to do with how big a cell you will get later on full of RJ. It makes sense to put
these cells on the pollen/nectar frames. So I combine a bunch of these cells and frames to put
them on. Just one day and the cup is almost 90% fill up with RJ. But the cells on the regular
cells frame don't do as good only half-way fill up. So I moved them to the pollen frames today.
Expecting some bigger cells this time. Will see what the virgin queens look like.

Cups on the pollen/nectar frame:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

As predicted the cells on the pollen/nectar frames
are bigger than the cells on the capped brood frames alone.
Maybe the bees are more well fed. After they are all
filled up to the plastic rim and some more, I removed
them to put on the regular frame bar to finish. Again,
put them next to the 2 frames of pollen/nectar. I will
not check them again until this Sunday when they all should be
capped by then.

Pollen/nectar frame:


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## Ddawg (Feb 17, 2012)

Thanks for the info bee. I'll be making my first attempt at grafting in the next few weeks. I'll be following this thread.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Your environment is much the same like us here.
So while it is still cold outside you can start grafting earlier.
The mated queen I got now was grafted in early February this year.
I used Lauri's fly back to boost the cell finisher hive. It was like 2 strong
hives combine into one. This was my cell builder hive with lots of pollen frames.
Then put the accepted cells on the pollen frames. When the plastic cups have
all been filled up I removed them onto the regular graft frame. Then the bees will deposit
more RJ to capped them eventually. These are going to be well fed queens because of the extra
large and wide plastic cell cups. You have to do a test graft first to see what is the condition like.
I plan to do one graft each month until this Autumn for my hive expansion.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

So all the cells are capped today. By next Thursday or so they should all
be hatched if things go accordingly.
They look rather fat than long cells. Either way as long as
they have the RJ filled up all the way then the larva should be 
well fed.
Now the question is how to get the 10 queens mated with
limited frame of bees? Things are about to be maxed out. Wish I
have more of the drawn frames to make up more mating nucs. How would you
go about solving this issue?

Capped cells after moved to the bar frame:


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

BeePro---What are those queen cups you are using there? They look larger than the standard cups. Are they repurposed caps from something else???

==McBee7==


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

There is a post on here not long ago talking about
and linking these cups. They are for RJ production. 
Joseph Clemens has a bunch of them before. Out of
my inexperience I bought some in my first year. Yes, they
are wider and longer than the standard plastic cups. As the RJ
filled in the bees will gradually widen the tip of the cell making it
bigger to store more RJ. This will make better well fed queens because
of the larger cell size. Now I know why my grafted cells have consistent 
larger size queens. And they are healthy too even though growing in a mite
infested hives. Since I cannot get rid of the mites anyways I let the bees deal
with them. This year is my bee year since they all overwintered so well. I'm running
out of equipment now trying to expand a lot. So bigger cups equal bigger well fed queens.


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## McBee7 (Dec 25, 2013)

Thanks for the info, I've never seen them before...I'll have to look them up 

==McBee7==


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

An update:

Today I made up 7 nucs, 2 frames each to house these capped cells. Of the 9 cells that
got accepted I took out 2 suspected dinky ones leaving 7 big ones to be planted on the bee frame.
With limited hive resources, 2 hives got split with the foam wrap aluminum
foil dividers. Each divider side will received a capped frame of bees from another hive and a pollen/nectar
frame. On the 3rd days, in observation, the queen larva will turn around facing
toward the end of the cell cup. On the 4th days you can see the legs, eyes, abdomen, etc. The 5th days you
can see her purple eyes developing. On the 7th days the queen should be hatched. It is an interesting observation of how fast the
queen larva can develop under optimum 70F outside condition just right before the flow is over. On all of these cells you can still see a 1/4" 
of the unused RJ where her abdomen sits on. I will save these RJ cups for future grafting although dry grafting is fine that I found out now.
With luck I should have 4-5 queens mated. It has been a fun queen making year for me so far. 


Queen cells planted:


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## Stephenpbird (May 22, 2011)

Just a quick observation, make sure this area is sealed if it isn't already, there should be minimal gap near the divider boards and the frame rests. The last thing you need is a virgin getting loose.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

^^^. That QC is going to have some issues. Plug them holes!


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

I totally agree with Stephen. Those division boards will result in failure for sure. There can be no passageway between compartments - this is pretty basic, right?


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

beepro said:


> On the 7th days the queen should be hatched.


Just a little nit. Eggs hatch, queens emerge. 



beepro said:


> On all of these cells you can still see a 1/4" of the unused RJ where her abdomen sits on. I will save these RJ cups for future grafting although dry grafting is fine that I found out now.


Leave the RJ in place! Newly emerged virgins will often go back into the cells to consume the remaining - its part of the natural process. Besides, STAY OUT of your nucs!! Nothing good is going to happen from you disturbing the process. Other than fixing the gaps, which you should do ASAP, don't touch the nucs for about 10 day post emergence, longer if you can stand it.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks all for all the good tips and correction.
I already plug up the gaps. And put a queen excluder over this box. Then put on
a honey super for the bees just in case.
After the queen emerged the workers will chose the best queen to tend to because
the QE will allow them to intermingle. This way it will insure that I keep the best queen
possible. Some might balled the queen so it is for the mating nuc for now. 
Later on I will combine them into one whole hive again after the queen is mated to collect the summer honey.
The extra queens will be put in a nuc hive to support the growing new colony. At least this is the plan for now.
It is so hard to stay out of the nucs not to find out what is going on inside. Already done this many times but
is still curious. Oh well, looks like I have to control myself for a few more days. What I found out is that after 3
days post emergence if the virgin doesn't spread her scent all over the bee frames as she mature then her chance of getting accepted is very slim. That is why it is so important for me to go in this Friday the latest (either 1st or 2nd days after emerging) to combine them just in case the cell is a dead one. By calculation they should all be out by this Thursday or Friday. The latest is this Saturday that I still have a chance to combine them. During this time the dinky ones will also be
culled out to only keep the healthy fat queens. 
About the RJ still inside the cups there is no worry about it. Because with so many bees and some fat nurse bees donated by another hive I am sure they know how to take care of the queen after she come out from the cell. This way she will not go back inside the cell to get stuck there as I have read. I will put a net plastic cloth over the QE the day before their schedule
emerging time. This way no dinky queen can escape and kill the other healthy queens. 
The goal is to select the allogrooming hygienic behaviors that I took the vids on so far. I'm sure the mites will be happy once
they're with these bees. Going on the tf route if all work out this time!


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## kramerbryan (Oct 30, 2013)

They have those royal jelly queen cups on ebay for a penny apiece.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

An update:


I check on the nuc hives today. No queen has emerge yet.
Some cells already have the tip wax chewed down a bit. I can
see the cocoon exposed. Maybe they are sensing that the queen is about
to come out and decided to help her along. By this Saturday, for sure that 
they will all come out. By then it is the 8th days post cap.
If not then I have to make another round of new graft from the Russian daughter queen.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Hurray!

This morning I check on the nuc hives. 
All 6 queens have emerged. One is still being capped.
One got out and killed the big fat one that was still inside the cap cell with the help of the 
workers in the save hive. I should not of put them together gambling that the big fat one will come out first.
The smaller queen was the first one to emerge. Good lesson learned for next time!
Every time I have an expectation of what the queens will look like. Don't know if they
are the Cordovan, carnis or the Italians. Well, this time they are all the Italians. Big fat
juicy Italian queens. Don't know how they are the same color but that will do for now. Some
beekeepers believe that each batch of eggs lay on the cells will have different type of bees since the
queen mated with many different drones. My experience so far was that the queen exhausted each batch
of eggs first then move on to the next batch using the FIFO method. This reminds me of keeping the guppy fish.
Now they are in their little 2 frames nuc waiting for the mating flight. The weather is sunny and warm at the low 70s.
Without the El Nino influence it should be the same for another month or so. The queens will have a good chance for their
mating flights around mid-April. How many queens you think will come back after their mating flights?


Healthy Italian virgin queens:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Another update:

Inspected the 2 successfully mated queen nucs today.
From 3/19 grafting date to 4/13 is almost a month pass by.
Approximately one week for the graft to cap, another one for them to emerged, and
one more long week for them to mate because of the rains. I did not listen to Astro to leave them alone and disturbed the virgin queens ending up with some balled queens again. The success rate would be increased if I have not done that. So 2 success out of the 19 grafted. I still have one cap and one virgin queen with another cell in the making now.
Anyways, they should continue their mating flight adventure until they have stored enough juice or is too fat to fly anymore. The workers already surrounding the new queen in a circle fashion. With the 70F good sunny weather they should be done with these flights in about a week or so. Then it is laying time in another 3 days or so added.
What I learned was that it takes many resources to make some good quality queens not to mention how time consuming it was. No wonder any mated queen posted on CL will be asked for in an hour or 2. Besides, these are the early queens as early as can be here. And the local beekeepers need to requeen their queen less hives now.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

You don't give your bees much respite do you, beepro?


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I think in the bees mind they still act as if everything is normal
except that they don't have a queen now. And desperately desperate to
find a mated queen to keep their hives going. Using this instinct to survive just
like us can result in some big and healthy queens. I use a rotating method to get
my big q-cells that the bees don't seem to notice much of a change. Now I have 3 newly mated 
queens loaded with eggs that they are too fat to fly anymore. All I do is take out the frame with the
supersedure cell on it every 7 days on a hive inspection to make a 2 frame mating nuc.
For the mated queens, I should see eggs in a few more days and can speed up the process if I feed them syrup but I don't
trying to go as natural as possible this year taking advantage of the extended bloom caused by the
El Nino effects. Next year is the opposite of the La Nina effect which is dryer than unusual here. No rains no
extended nectar flow. When I grafted these cells the weather was still rainy and cold outside one month before. Time it well with the
coming warm trend and everything should be fine for the queens to mate. Are you ready to graft yours?

Mated queens now:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Another update:

Well, I check on the hives today. Saw new eggs
on all 3 nuc hives. The last queen pic above shows
a slender queen and she laid eggs that are horizontal rather
than vertical on the cells. I have read that queen with such a
laying pattern might not be a good, well fed queen that might be
superseded later on. But her eggs are thick white solid rather than
thin clear solid. I wonder how she will do later on. Most of my breeder
queens are either 2 or 3 years old. Let's see if she can make it that far.
Curious to see what their workers will look like for a potential graft. 
All have solid egg pattern so far.


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## bkeading (Apr 8, 2016)

might try putting the graft bar with empty cell cups in the cell builder for a couple of hours before you place larvae in them, the bees will clean the cups for you, this has helped me every time I graft with good results.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks for the tips. I will try that next time.
I think my shaky hands caused the larva to flip
on the other side. With 3 newly mated queens and laying now and another
2 cells in development I'm a happy beekeeper for this season already. 
The 2 frame nucs with the new laying queen has been expanded to 3 to 4 frames already. This way
there will be more room for the new queen to lay. Some empty frames they are starting to draw them out and 
fill up with nectar and pollen. Expecting a good honey harvest this season too. 
Right now another hive is providing the brood frames to expand these nucs. Later on when these
nucs are exploding with lots of bees then the brood frames will be given back to the support hive. Some of these
nucs will be splits to make another round of queens using the 2 frame queen castle method with the foam/aluminum
foil dividers. With the success of this little bee experiment, I wonder how many nuc hives I can make at the end of this season?
There is a breeder queen that makes at least 2 queen cells every week for me into the late winter at her second year already. These I will turn them into the big queen cells. Oh, don't worry about the mites here because my 
homemade oav gadget installed under the hive will take care of this issue when needed to. 
I will keep track of the grafted cups with color marking to indicate which color queen they have come from. 
This way I can keep track and identify what color is the queen coming from the worker bees locally in each hive.
I'll be surprised when they are not all darker color. It seems like this little bee experiment is getting more interesting everyday.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Another queen had emerged today. Looks like another well fed healthy queen
again born in a mite infested hive. All of these queens emerged from the mite laden hives.
The slender queen that laid the eggs horizontally all hatched out fine full
of milky RJ. But the 2 other bigger queens didn't do as well as I have expected.
I thought the slender queen is no good compared to the other 2. But she turn out
to be an exceptional laying queen that almost never miss an empty cell. The largest queen of the
3 did not lay that many eggs into the small cell comb. Perhaps she is too big to fit in the cell to deposit her eggs.
On purpose I put in the small cell to raise some small cell bees this time. I'm not sure at this moment if the cell
size has anything to do with it or these queens are still new at laying. Will give them more time until
next week to further decide. The second pic show only the end of her abdomen that cover the opening of the
cell already. And the rest is too big. What do you think about this laying issue? 


Biggest of the 3:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

An update:

So of the 5 queens that made it only one is consider a good
keeper queen. She will be my chosen breeder if she make it to next year.
It is an Italian cross with the Cordovan genetics although a bit fat but still she
can lay in these small cells. Has nice brood pattern with honey over head and good solid pollen frames.
Guess I'm lucky this time.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

One lucky queen:


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Yet another newly mated queen 

Found a rather large mated queen today in a mating nuc hive check. She is a lot
bigger than her other sisters.
Forgot when was her emerging date. Sometime about 2 weeks ago.
As you can see she is quite loaded now. Early on I thought she was just
another dinky queen. What a big fat yellowish Italians queen. Glad that I
did not pinch her early on. Made 2 more mating nuc hives for the capped q-cells.

One big fat queen:


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## rniles (Oct 10, 2012)

Very nice beepro!!


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

Thanks, rniles!
My plan is to grow as many tf and survivor bees as I can that fight
the mites here. The next step is to incorporate the vsh genetics into
these daughters. That means to send off the vsh drones to the local DCAs.
They already have the algogrooming behaviors now. After that will get some
of those mite biting bees too. The intention is to attack these mites from many
direction as natural as possible while using my homemade oav gadget to control
the mites if things get out of hands and requeen them with the resistant queen..


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