# How Many Frames of Bees for Honey Production



## drlonzo (Apr 15, 2014)

I know that when building up for pollination (Almonds) most everyone is looking for an eight frame min density of bees either going into or coming out of winter. Just wondering though, for those of you that run your hives for primarily Honey Production, how many frames of bees do you want to see in your hives when you go into winter?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

The more the better but think in terms of brood. Given that even the best queen maxes out at around 12-13 full deep frames of brood, that is what I would shoot for as my goal a month ahead of an anticipated flow.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

I think the almond guys look for 8 frames+ as they approach almond time. maybe I'm wrong though.
Going into winter I want 8 or so frames of bees, but it's sometimes hard to judge in the fall.
I hope to come out of winter with 5 (or 6 is better) and start to build for spring from that. I equalize hives in the early spring.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

At what temperature are you judging the pre-winter cluster of bees?

Crazy Roland


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

drlonzo said:


> I know that when building up for pollination (Almonds) most everyone is looking for an eight frame min density of bees either going into or coming out of winter. Just wondering though, for those of you that run your hives for primarily Honey Production, how many frames of bees do you want to see in your hives when you go into winter?


10 frame minimum. but the more the merrier!


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

Yep, 8 framers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6B5qm2ut18


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

drlonzo said:


> I know that when building up for pollination (Almonds) most everyone is looking for an eight frame min density of bees either going into or coming out of winter. Just wondering though, for those of you that run your hives for primarily Honey Production, how many frames of bees do you want to see in your hives when you go into winter?


As many as a colony will maintain without swarming right before a nectar flow. I don't manage to one set number. I manage them strong but not to the point of swarming, if I can. That's how one gets the maximum honey production.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

Roland said:


> At what temperature are you judging the pre-winter cluster of bees?
> 
> Crazy Roland


Yes, this is what matters going into winter. Bees that are covering 8 frames well at 75 degrees outside temp, can contract down to half that number of frames covered at 35 degrees outside temp. I like to judge numbers of frames by how it looks at the lower temps rather than higher. I think that in my area, I like to see at least 6-7 heavily covered deep frames of bees at 32 degrees. Assuming that the bees have been treated for mites and have plenty of food storage above them, that would be a good starting point for winter survival.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Roland said:


> At what temperature are you judging the pre-winter cluster of bees?
> 
> Crazy Roland


not sure if this is for me or not but days middle-high 40's around Dec 1.
bees still fly on sunny calm afternoons but not everyday.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Guess I didn't fully comprehend the question which is what size of a winter cluster makes for production the following summer. I would say if they don't dwindle much below 3 frames by early April they should be in pretty good shape to be two boxes of bees in another 3 brood cycles (mid June). Carni's will probably show a little more fast growth potential while Italians probably will need to be a bit larger. The keys, of course, are spring buildup conditions and swarm control. So fall population? I like to see a basketball sized cluster in the fall.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> Guess I didn't fully comprehend the question which is what size of a winter cluster makes for production the following summer. I would say if they don't dwindle much below 3 frames by early April they should be in pretty good shape to be two boxes of bees in another 3 brood cycles (mid June). Carni's will probably show a little more fast growth potential while Italians probably will need to be a bit larger. The keys, of course, are spring buildup conditions and swarm control. So fall population? I like to see a basketball sized cluster in the fall.


So, are you saying about a basketball size cluster at 75 degrees or 35 degrees? I agree with you that if you have about 3 good frames of bees in early spring, they will build up quite well by honeyflow time.:thumbsup:


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

in my location 3 frames in early April will have a very hard time making a honey crop with our early main flow.
need to have them ready to work by early May.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

jmgi said:


> So, are you saying about a basketball size cluster at 75 degrees or 35 degrees? I agree with you that if you have about 3 good frames of bees in early spring, they will build up quite well by honeyflow time.:thumbsup:


35. I'm not saying it's a mandatory size, just a nice goal to shoot for and one that shouldn't have a problem wintering in a northern climate given adequate feed and protection.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

clyderoad said:


> in my location 3 frames in early April will have a very hard time making a honey crop with our early main flow.
> need to have them ready to work by early May.


Yes, more is better no doubt but I've seen plenty of 3 combers make a nice crop. All spring build ups are not equal.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Missing from this discussion is cavity size. A 3 comber in a 5 comb nuc box grows pretty quickly while the same sized cluster in a double deep might struggle to grow. It's nice to have half at least half the chamber occupied.


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## jmgi (Jan 15, 2009)

jim lyon said:


> Missing from this discussion is cavity size. A 3 comber in a 5 comb nuc box grows pretty quickly while the same sized cluster in a double deep might struggle to grow. It's nice to have half at least half the chamber occupied.


:thumbsup:


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

jim lyon said:


> Missing from this discussion is cavity size. .


good point. overwintered nucs are a different animal.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

drlonzo said:


> I know that when building up for pollination (Almonds) most everyone is looking for an eight frame min density of bees either going into or coming out of winter. Just wondering though, for those of you that run your hives for primarily Honey Production, how many frames of bees do you want to see in your hives when you go into winter?


Next years honey production has something to do with the size of the winter cluster. It more so has to do with the queen and her vigour. Take nucs as an example. 
Big hive, small hive, and your spring work. My spring hive strength targets lie around the 4 frames of brood a few weeks before the main flow. Up here that strength timing runs around May long weekend. Anything over that strength target usually will end up in the trees


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Ian said:


> My spring hive strength targets lie around the 4 frames of brood a few weeks before the main flow. Up here that strength timing runs around May long weekend. Anything over that strength target usually will end up in the trees


Good point Ian. This year I've been reviewing my notes in detail about the swarms that swarmed. I found a common point in general: the swarms that swarmed or built swarming queen cells in April, had in March 6 frames of brood. In March my hives develop a lot because they have a lot of pollen available and in mid-April begins the first major nectar flow.


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## minz (Jan 15, 2011)

I think you need to time it against the flow in your area, not just the main. Last year I tried pollen subs for the first time and ended up with a nice spring crop of honey ( It was an unusual year for us though, warm and dry). Plum trees start the parade of blooming trees here in mid March. Almost every fruit tree with a bloom is starting or stopping by mid April, blackberry by June and not a flower to be seen from July 15 until the next spring. Traditionally I have been shooting for the main June flow, this year I had half my honey by then.
I like 5 good seams of bees for my OA. For my OA fall treatment I like 40 degrees weather between thanksgiving and Xmas for my timing


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Since the '40s, at the first spring inspection, we record on the back of the single brood chamber the number of frames WITH significant brood. With skill, a "2" can make a deep super of honey. A "3", much easier. Anything above that gets brood donated to splits. 

So the OP needs to decide what his skill level is at expanding bee hives, and calculate how many frames of bees he needs to see going into winter.

Generally, at 35 deg F., a cluster covering portions of 7-8 frames is a safe bet. 

Crazy Roland


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Roland said:


> Since the '40s, at the first spring inspection, we record on the back of the single brood chamber the number of frames WITH significant brood. With skill, a "2" can make a deep super of honey. A "3", much easier.* Anything above that gets brood donated to splits*.


These tips are very important to me. Roland with what kind of hive and bees you work: Langstroth or another model/ carni or italians?


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Standard 10 frame Langstroth, single deep brood chamber, deep supers.

Italians and Carniolans(mostly NWC from Strachan). Not alot of differences in performance, just how you must handle and manipulate them. 

Crazy Roland 

P.S. I lied, today I picked up a hive body from the 20's, and noticed for the first time the spring frame count on the back in lumber crayon, (and that it had been noted as having AFB and had been charred).


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## Eduardo Gomes (Nov 10, 2014)

Thank you Roland for your attention. Impressive that your family already use this procedure and reference for almost 100 years. I feel that I need to adopt a set of references like these that you and Ian have adopted to make my decision process more automatic and quick management and become easily transmissible to my employee.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Counting frames all spring


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

The spring frame count was heavily weighted when hives where chosen for breeders(in house only). In hind sight, it was a good system, but with the advent of Strachan NWC that build faster than a standard Italian, I am wondering if the count should be done twice(I just threw Ian a bone) to reward the smaller early cluster that later overtakes the larger early cluster.

Crazy Roland


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

I call it , BOOM!!
Lol
"Best step up the work boys"


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