# Unintentional experiment with mating nuc size



## kaizen (Mar 20, 2015)

interesting results thanks for sharing. would you surmise that the queen didn't like the small colony so just left?


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks for bringing that point home, Matt. 

Were the frames medium Illinois (6-1/4" deep frames for 6-5/8" supers) or deep Langstroths (9-1/8" deep frames for 9-11/16" brood boxes) or perhaps some other size?


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I've observed pretty much the same thing. I wonder if perhaps the bigger, stronger hives are just easier for the queens to find when returning from mating?


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I think several things are involved. At least 3 frames are required for a half-way decent night time cluster shape, 4 or 5 are still better. There has to be enough room for the queen to lay eggs. Too small of a nuc' can cause pre-swarming conditions to occur in short order. The bees may well decide that the box just in not large enough...


----------



## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

Just thinking weird thoughts out loud here...

Does any one think bees from the hive go out with the queen on her mating flights? If so, it seems that larger mating nucs or hives would have enough bees to to attend to and celebrate the mating flights. Maybe mating flights are not as successful without a large procession cheering on the deed and escorting the queen back home?


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I just saw the most intense mating area I've ever seen last week. 

A side gulch in a canyon had bee noise that I heard from 80 yards away (drones are a bit louder than workers). I hiked the detour to see if it was a commercial drop or a swarm. 

As I got right to the back of the gulch, there they were, just above the tops of the brush and trees, forming "comets" and turning and burning all over the place. I must have seen 25 drone comets in 1 and 1/2 minutes. They made S-turns, vertical dives, spins, U-turns, you name it - fighter pilots should have studied them.

I know I saw at least 4 actual matings, all because it happened so close to me. As soon as a drone mounted a queen, the comet would break up and re-group somewhere else.

But it was almost all drones. They were quite a bit easier to spot in flight than the queens. I saw no cheering section of workers.


----------



## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

But.....queen breeders mate thousands of queens in mini mating nucs????


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Yes, many do. It's always a matter of getting the details in line and learning exactly how your bees tolerate mini- or baby- mating nuc's to mate the maximum number of queens during the season, especially a short season, like in the North. And why not? That's a lot more money - about $25 a piece for mass-produced, open mated queens.

But it is far more reliable to use a larger nuc', and you gain the advantage of not having an additional transfer to do to those thousands of mini nuc's. They can stay in the 5-framers for 3 to 5 weeks, giving you lots of options and a lot of forgiveness in scheduling. If you are small time or a side liner with 150 colonies, larger nuc's make a lot of sense. 

I only ever considered 4 mini-frame baby nuc's for queens that I intended to sell, never for increaser nuc's to over-Winter. My increasers always got mated in a 3x3 (2 partitions in a 10-framer with 3 narrow inner covers) and moved to 2x5-frame arrangement soon after mating. My mentor doesn't waste the time - he starts the nuc' colonies right in the 10-framers, with a double screen board over a strong colony.


----------



## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

kilocharlie said:


> Thanks for bringing that point home, Matt.
> 
> Were the frames medium Illinois (6-1/4" deep frames for 6-5/8" supers) or deep Langstroths (9-1/8" deep frames for 9-11/16" brood boxes) or perhaps some other size?


They were 9 1/8 deep frames.


----------



## Huntingstoneboy (Feb 10, 2013)

Bee density and resources? I am thinking out loud. I use 5 frame deep and 3 frame deeps for queen rearing. I have noticed similar results. The weak nucs (less bees) have a low percentage of success as opposed to the strong ones, no matter 3 or 5 frame.


----------



## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

odfrank said:


> But.....queen breeders mate thousands of queens in mini mating nucs????


And what are their average catch rates?

A friend of mine raises queens professionally, using 4 way mating boxes with a feeder and three or four mini frames in each quarter of the box. The catch average varies from time to time.

I wonder if queenrearers play the odds of having the queens needed by running more and more mating nucs.

"The only difference was the strength of the mating nucs." This may well be the key.


----------



## Dominic (Jul 12, 2013)

Interesting. I don't tend to follow the anti-drifting "best practices", I don't have funky horse-shoe shaped apiaries, my entrances aren't all facing different directions, my hives aren't spread out... When I talk to people about my queen rearing and mention this, they often go "oh, wow, you must have a lot of stray queens not coming back!". Actually, I don't, they almost all come back. I never considered the fact that my mating nucs are typically 3-10 standard frames of bees, as opposed to mini mating nucs, to be part of the answer.


----------



## ozbee (Feb 13, 2012)

if nucs are close the queens that return to the stronger hives tend to lay quicker than the weaker nucs as there is less bees to manage the hive . hives that lay earlier produce more pherformones hence more guard bees which can nock of other queens flying close by


----------



## GusK (Jan 24, 2013)

I have noticed something similar, yet there is one variable that is lacking in the experiment:

Which queens came from which nucs? That is to say, did all the queens that had returned successfully from their mating flights return to their original nuc, or did they go to the largest queenless nucs they could find?

I think larger nucs have a more intense "queenless" scent and may be more attractive. They have more bees at the entrance to "greet" the queen's return - fanning their pheromones. Thus a competitive scenario is created for all returning mated queens.

Furthermore, if all nucs are the same size in the same yard, I think the overall success rate would be the same.

Just a theory based on similar observations.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

And how about the make up of the nuc? If there is lots of open brood, will the hive behave the same as when they are clearly needing a queen. Perhaps its a distraction from the task at hand of getting a queen mated. And how about the worker mix. Maybe its just me, but nucs made up of bees from another yard with foragers, seem to do better than those made primarily of young bees from the same yard. 

Preliminary results is that I've had good success with queens raised above a snelgrove, mostly broodless when the queen is flying, compared to mating nucs made up with 2 frames of bees. I am now going with 3 frames of bees based on this discussion.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

GusK said:


> I have noticed something similar, yet there is one variable that is lacking in the experiment:
> 
> Which queens came from which nucs? That is to say, did all the queens that had returned successfully from their mating flights return to their original nuc, or did they go to the largest queenless nucs they could find?
> 
> ...



I think that you are probably partially correct - in that a larger mating nuc has more of everything that makes it easier to find when a queen is returning from her mating flight - visually larger, more scent etc.

While I'm sure that there may be exceptions I think that queens generally try to return to the hive they emerged into - and sometimes they just get confused. Here is what I base that belief on - When I arrange mating nucs in cross or star shaped groups (2 to five nucs per group) with the back sides pointing into the middle of the formation, and the entrances pointing out, I get much much higher success than when they are lined up in straight lines on long hive stands. The "star" shaped groups just make it a lot easier to visually tell which hive is which - even for me. They are however considerably less convenient to work and mow around. I do try to keep all mating nucs in pretty good demographic shape.


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Risk vs. reward. I raise queen cells from grafts (as a small timer) in 5 frame medium nucs. These have either 5 frames (2 open nectar) or 3 frames with a 2 x frame feeder. That is a whole lot of pulled frames in a lot of 100 boxes.

My friend raises mated queens in nucs not much bigger than a file card box. He gets about 75% return and ships 150/week all season long. The resources "wasted" on the 25% that fail are insignificant compared to shaking out a 5 frame medium box that is laying drones.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Aren't you supposed to sell them before you can tell they are drone layers???


----------



## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

David LaFerney said:


> Aren't you supposed to sell them before you can tell they are drone layers???


I assume that sarcasm? I run the medium nucs up to 8 or 10 frames, and sell them in a single with a migratory cover serving top and bottom. May change this in the future as they grow too fast at that stage. Purchasers have had trouble with early swarms when hived up with a "foundationless" super. The colonies are growing quickly and the relatively empty boxes they get supered up with don't draw them up, leading to a swarm pattern despite the extra "room' they have been given.


----------



## Huntingstoneboy (Feb 10, 2013)

lharder said:


> And how about the make up of the nuc? If there is lots of open brood, will the hive behave the same as when they are clearly needing a queen. Perhaps its a distraction from the task at hand of getting a queen mated. And how about the worker mix. Maybe its just me, but nucs made up of bees from another yard with foragers, seem to do better than those made primarily of young bees from the same yard.
> 
> Preliminary results is that I've had good success with queens raised above a snelgrove, mostly broodless when the queen is flying, compared to mating nucs made up with 2 frames of bees. I am now going with 3 frames of bees based on this discussion.


Why would you make a nuc that you want to place a queen cell in with open brood? I always use capped brood!


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Some open brood won't hurt a mating nuc as long as it has enough bees to take care of it. A ripe cell should emerge within 2 days - not long enough for them to commit to building cells. When you harvest queens and plant cells for a second round of production, mating nucs may contain quite a lot of open brood. Not a problem as far as I can tell. A good thing even. It results in a more ballanced healthier hive that is more able to take care of itself and the new queen.


----------



## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Huntingstoneboy said:


> Why would you make a nuc that you want to place a queen cell in with open brood? I always use capped brood!


For me there are a couple of reasons. One, more bees on a frame of open brood get transferred to the mating nuc and they stay there. Second there is a delay in the emergence of that brood delaying the overpopulation of that nuc. In addition this also shortens the time the nuc is broodless. One problem I have come to expect is possible with a package producing a nuc or other cases where colonies are broodless. is that they then tend to supersede their queen. I suspect this is triggered simply because they where broodless. The new queen is unable to remedy this situation quickly enough and is replaced. My methods are being altered to attempt to remedy this situation.


----------



## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Its a good idea to put open brood in a nuc because it gives the hive a second chance if there is a problem with the cell.


----------



## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

People who use the words "always" or "never" give me the heebie jeebies.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

How often does that give you the heebie jeebies when it happens?


----------



## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Is there a possibility that Italian bees have different inclinations or susceptibility to supercede a queen compared to the darker bees? 

Seemingly opposite opinions might both have good evidence but gained from experience with different bees in different climates? Will cells that are more or less closely related to the workers have a different acceptance rate?


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

The other side of it is that if you are looking for a brood break for the nuc, then brood stage introduced may make a difference. 

I haven't decided on an exact strategy, but perhaps I will combine failed mating nucs a week or so after the queen is supposed to be laying, and add frames with young larve/eggs, let them make a couple of cells then use them as a cell builder for a grafting attempt. 

So how long without brood does it take for laying workers to get going? Laying workers is what I want to avoid.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

If you are using standard sized frames it's pretty easy to prevent laying workers. When a nuc fails to make a queen just give it a frame of open brood along with a cell. If it fails twice in a row shake it out and swap the resources for new frames of brood. The nuc keeps it's foragers, but everything else gets refreshed - better than new.

I don't know what the exact time frame is but if a hive is made queenless - like a split - it's always ok for a month, but then it's time to do something drastic, because pretty soon it will do this >> laying workers, population crashes, hive beetles hatch, wax moths move in. And it's a total loss.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I've struggled at times getting some nucs queen right last year. I think one of the issues is when to give up on a new queen and take action. This year I've had a much better start and have changed my strategy/configuration considerably. I think some fresh starts are a good idea.


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I just did a check of my mating nucs. My first batch started laying about 5 days ago. 4 out of 6 (actually 6 out of 8 if you include the queens above the snelgrove board) at the last check. Was doing some other bee stuff so checked the 2 laggards again. One appeared to be laying though the queen escaped my gaze. The second had lots of eggs with many cells with many eggs. Again the queen escaped my gaze. Is it possible that laying workers have developed already and have laid so many eggs? I gave the potential laying worker a frame with eggs and brood. 

I had a brief look at my second batch which is due about now. 2 out of 7 are laying with queen sightings, and a 3rd had many eggs with many multiples without a queen sighting. Too soon for a laying workers situation? Have less hope with the second batch as they seem much weaker than the first batch, drawn from within the yard so sans foragers at the beginning. Perhaps size of mating nuc does make a difference. The last 2 batches are made with 3 frames of brood/bees from bees outside the mating yard so some foragers are on the scene from the beginning. I think it makes a difference.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Usually laying workers lay in a scattered pattern where as a queen will lay pretty solid. It's not unusual for a new queen to lay many eggs in a few cells when she first starts. Anyway, you'll know for sure pretty soon now.


----------



## Huntingstoneboy (Feb 10, 2013)

Daniel Y said:


> For me there are a couple of reasons. One, more bees on a frame of open brood get transferred to the mating nuc and they stay there. Second there is a delay in the emergence of that brood delaying the overpopulation of that nuc. In addition this also shortens the time the nuc is broodless. One problem I have come to expect is possible with a package producing a nuc or other cases where colonies are broodless. is that they then tend to supersede their queen. I suspect this is triggered simply because they where broodless. The new queen is unable to remedy this situation quickly enough and is replaced. My methods are being altered to attempt to remedy this situation.


Interesting point I didn't consider. I had a couple nucs try to supercede a freshly mated queen last season. As far as I could tell their laying patterns looked fine, I just assumed the bees know more than me. I marked the nucs, set them aside and let nature take its course. In the past I have used all capped brood....the thought being that the nuc would be "hopelessly queenless". In hindsight a little open brood may not be a bad idea, as stated the cell will hatch within a day or 2 regardless. Sorry about the "Heebi Jeebis" Aunt Betty!


----------



## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

David LaFerney said:


> Usually laying workers lay in a scattered pattern where as a queen will lay pretty solid. It's not unusual for a new queen to lay many eggs in a few cells when she first starts. Anyway, you'll know for sure pretty soon now.


That's what I heard, before. If so the new queen is in a laying frenzy Some interesting bizarre outcomes with this queen rearing. Last year I had a drone layer that filled up an entire comb of drone comb with drones. I took that comb out and froze it, gave it a frame with eggs and they turfed that queen and raised some nice cells. 

Thanks everyone for your input. Very valuable.


----------



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

GusK said:


> I have noticed something similar, yet there is one variable that is lacking in the experiment:
> 
> Which queens came from which nucs? That is to say, did all the queens that had returned successfully from their mating flights return to their original nuc, or did they go to the largest queenless nucs they could find?
> 
> ...




HMMMM.......maybe this was my problem. I made some splits this spring, pulled a queen out of an overwintered hive and placed her in a nuc and moved her. once the parent hive had queen cells capped I busted it up into nucs. but left the majority there to raise a new queen. One of the nucs i split off was placed right next to the parent hive. When it was time to check to see if cells hatched I quickly found the virgin in the 5 frame nuc and marked her. , but the parent hive still being 4 boxes tall she was hard to find but I saw one of the cells hathed from the bottom and the second I left was torn open from the side. Fast forward to when it's time to look for eggs and the little nuc had no eggs and no queen. When I checked the Parent hive for eggs I found them, but it had a marked queen. So for whatever reason that queen left the 5 frame nuc on her mating flight and returned to the parent 4 box hive next to her.


----------



## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Reading through the posts in this thread, I can see my conclusion. Strong nuc's and equal-sized nuc's in the mating yard (along with having moved them 10 miles from their home apiary to prevent fly-backs) are going to give me the best results. 

I can run a batch of slightly smaller mating nuc's to try to idealize the use of resources, but when the returns taper off, move it back up a notch. 

Note that time of year affects the required nuc' size.


----------



## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

Along the same lines as GusK, I found that location of the nuc made as much difference as the size to mating success. Mini mating nucs in a yard of full sized hives had success rates of around 50%. 5 frame nucs in the same situation had a 90% success rate. Move the mini mating nucs 20 feet away from the yard and the success rate went up to around 80%.


----------



## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

zhiv9 said:


> Move the mini mating nucs 20 feet away from the yard and the success rate went up to around 80%.


Seriously, 20 feet away in the same yard and it made a difference? I'm not doubting you, just wondering if I am reading that correctly.


----------



## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

jwcarlson said:


> Seriously, 20 feet away in the same yard and it made a difference? I'm not doubting you, just wondering if I am reading that correctly.


Yes, initially had put them within the yard so they would be protected by the bear fence. After having poor success, I spread them out along the fence row 20 feet away and the difference was huge. This was true for both mini mating nucs and queen castles. It didn't seem to matter as much for five frame nucs. Feeding when a flow isn't on, also helps with success.


----------

