# European treatment free beekeeping conference in Austria infos and results



## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

https://at.eventbu.com/neusiedl-am-see/bienenkonferenz-thema-behandlungsfreie-bienenhaltung/8793641

The conference was a big success.

I will tell about the discussions, interviews and ideas I was a part of in this thread and hope some of the referents will join in and share their thoughts.





















John Kefuss, Erik Österlund, Juhani Lunden

and many more.....coming from Germany, UK and Poland. It was the most exciting and informative event for me.

Thanks to John Kefuss, Juhani Lunden, Erik Österlund , Norbert Dorn ( the initiator) for permitting the interviews and for all the referents to take part in the discussions and story tellings in the hotel bar.
It was the most positive and optimistic atmosphere.

We are all friends now sharing this beginning of new ideas in beekeeping future!


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

:applause:


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Yes, it truly was a great success. Thousand thanks to Norbert and Gabi Dorn for their great effort! 

Some of the participants are probably doing what I am, writing a story to their national/local beekeeping magazines. This way the awareness of TF beekeeping and natural beekeeping in general will go giant steps forward. 

There is already a new conference coming in autumn in Holland.

The very active group FORT KNOX from Poland was presenting maybe the most exciting system for future practical steps in hole Europe. Their practical and simple approach and working together made a huge impact on me. .

I hope that Bartek Maleta finds the time to present their project here on Beesource too, but until that in short about their work: The group of 14 TF beekeepers quarantine that in case of someone losing all or nearly all hives, the other members will help. They have written and agreed rules for what they do. They come together twice a year and if someone has experienced losses, he will bring his empty hives and will get a nuc of a surviving hive of another group member. This is to promote genetic versatility, too. 
In addition they give lectures and education about natural beekeeping.
All in done on voluntary basis and the basis is trusting each other.


I have outlined, little modified, a new model, I hope this is not seen anything against their way to do it, just my thoughts of making evolution of it, in case it would came to a wider use:


Original Fort Knox:
-distance between members 4-500 km
-different frame sizes
-only free matings in the home yards of the participants
-all losses are covered 

Fort Knox 2.0: 
-distance 100 km max 
- same frame size withing the group 
- a mating station (inside the 100 km circle), used for half of the queens 
all members bring one dronehive into the maiting station
-only half of the losses are covered by the group


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Many thanks Juhani.

This is what Bartek Maleta sent to me today:



> ps. Torben Schiffer has written me an email. He wants to go with Fort
> Knox to the public and would want to implement this strategy in Europe
> ;-)


So I gave him my e-mail to give to Torben since I´ve started a network too. I hope he will include me ( or us).
We will meet 22.april the first time.

Remember, Juhani, when I told you at the hotel bar about my new acquaintance? 
I spoke to him today on the phone and we decided to move my best survivor colony to him to breed queens from by artificial insemination. So he will have diversity of drone material from survivor hives.
He is an experienced beekeeper and will have more success with queen breeding ( and more time, being retired) than me and I believe he will breed queens for the group in future if we want this.

Well the bees started the season, foraging like crazy, nature explodes right now, weather 20°C, and I have a day job so all will be in time.


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## Eastwood (Oct 30, 2000)

Yes, it was a great conference.
I'm happy we don't have the same opinion all of us attending including us speaking. As I said, if we all have the same opinions there will be no new thoughts and no further development, no progress. Different thoughts give food for thoughts and you have the possibility to learn something new, get new ideas and develop and improve your strategies and your management and methods. I just mention one thing here, but everyone came with comments well worth to listen too. Torben Shiffer is doing very interesting research about what happens in feral colonies in the wild. There is different things that we learn from this in how we make our hives and management. He is working on his doctorate thesis. But many there not working on any academical thesis are doing a lot of good work. 
It was also very inspiring to meet beekeepers from Poland as well as from neighbouring countries, well Poland is actually a neighbour as well (over the see).


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

I remember Torben Schiffer telling us the beekeepers even expect their bees to light up the smoker... 

And he told us the bees are regarded as lazy if they bring not so much honey, not realizing they clean the hive 

The more the bees store the more lazy they act in their household....


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## flamenco108 (Mar 27, 2016)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Original Fort Knox:
> -distance between members 4-500 km
> -different frame sizes
> -only free matings in the home yards of the participants
> ...


*Juhani*, there are ca. 60.000 beekeepers, and ca. 2.000.000 bee colonies in Poland. No place for true (or even semi-true) mating station, especially, when the limited group of members is considered. The same result we can get just by free matings. Perhaps, when we will be more numerous, we could organize one mating station for all of us, somewhere in forests, but it's rather unlikely in the short perspective. Remember, that we are amateurs, and we do it in our spare time, besides our day-jobs and families. 

The frame size is the least problem we have. After a few years of juggling with frames of different sizes, I can assume that I will not encounter a problem with shifting from any dimension to any other


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

Juhani, thank You for that words under my adress and adress of our association Free Bees (http://wolnepszczoly.org/about-us/). As soon as I have some time I will start to write some information about Fort Knox in Poland, and I will translate the rules of it int English. I will try to publish (also here on beesource) all the details we can give - and we want to share it with everybody that is interested in such a project.
Maybe before I will manage to do that, we will publish all the speaches (including mine about "Fort Knox" project) on internet, and surely we will put some links here for an example how we can group some amataurs to cooperate and do some work for selection. I'm very glad that this project met such an interest. 

My personal opinion is that it is 
a) quite impossible (as Flamenco has written) to do that in our conditions;
b) not really the most important part (I mean genetics, and having controlled mating) - I'm not saying it's not important, I'm saying that maybe it's not the most important and that crucial to bee's health;
c) important to keep it simple - so everybody has to have bees in hers/his yard, not to take it to some mating station

I'm sorry not to put some details now, but after the conference I have so little time to do anything, and I haven't even started to do all that has to be done to organise with such a vast knowlage we have gathered. 

It was a great honour for me to be the part of that event. It was a real pleasure to meet Sibylle, Juhani, Erik, John Kefuss and many many other beekeepers I was following before on internet. 
It makes me (personal and as a member of the association) also proud that many people met with such an interest "Fort Knox" project, which came to life with "mind-storm" of our association friends with the "core idea" of my friend Marcin Zarek who is the coordinator of the project in Poland. 

I surely will post the details as soon as they will be translated into English!

Thank You again - to everybody who made that event so special!
Bartek


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

flamenco108 said:


> *Juhani*, there are ca. 60.000 beekeepers, and ca. 2.000.000 bee colonies in Poland. No place for true (or even semi-true) mating station, especially, when the limited group of members is considered. The same result we can get just by free matings. Perhaps, when we will be more numerous, we could organize one mating station for all of us, somewhere in forests, but it's rather unlikely in the short perspective. Remember, that we are amateurs, and we do it in our spare time, besides our day-jobs and families.
> 
> The frame size is the least problem we have. After a few years of juggling with frames of different sizes, I can assume that I will not encounter a problem with shifting from any dimension to any other


The giving of bees can be done by using artificial swarms so what´s the problem with frames? It´s even better to force adaptation if the old microfauna is left behind ( as long as you do not believe this is a benefit).

In my lifetime we probably will never have a project mating place, south germany is much too crowded.

I´m grateful for the talk I had with Juhani though, I will look for the signs of adaptation he provided.
It is a shame so many of his customers give no feedback.
One of my co-workers at least could tell him some of what happened with his queens.

And I will not deny my co-workers to do grafting and artificial insemination out of my two year survivor hives if they want this, using survivor drones of both location..they themselves see a problem with inbreeding if they only use their stock. I will get back the mother queen and one daughter and this will be nice research starting for me.

So, as a hobbyist researcher  I will have 4 commercial buckfast colonies, 5 survivors of northern bee lines with their descendants which are locally adapted now, and one hive, already adapted mutts, kept in a "feral " way.
This I want to journal in my thread here on beesource.
Most of the descendants are mated with local treated stock so they are "Fort Knox" bees, if I may say so.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Juhani Lunden said:


> Yest, just my thoughts of making evolution of it, in case it would came to a wider use:





flamenco108 said:


> *Juhani*, there are ca. 60.000 beekeepers, and ca. 2.000.000 bee colonies in Poland. No place for true (or even semi-true) mating station, especially, when the limited group of members is considered.)


I did not mean you should make changes, I was thinking my Finnish readers. IF/WHEN we are applying this method to whole Europe (= wider use) it could be modified according to different conditions and the skills/wishes of the group members.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Sounds like an amazing conference. Are some of the presentations available on the web?


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

lharder said:


> Sounds like an amazing conference. Are some of the presentations available on the web?


not yet, but they will be. We have about 70 - 80% of presentations recorded, but still doing some rendering. I will post a link here when we will publish them (couple of days to - I hope - max a week).

for me it was for sure amazing. it was - to my knowledge - first treatment free conference in Europe.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

I wouldn't be too pessimistic about the Fort Knox approach. I've suggested something like it in the past, and am trying to implement it on my own as I have no local partners. I have 2 sites close together, going for 3. I would say Fort Knox 1 is more useful as it creates a situation where tf queens can mate with at least some tf drones. Queens are not mating randomly with all the drones in the country, so spatial considerations are important. 

It would be nice if beekeeping organizations would realize the scientific value of this and create zones where tf and feral bees can thrive. Lessons learned here can be used in moving much of bee management away from the treadmill of treating.


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

I would also add to what Iharder has written, that if You have a mating station with "promissing" genetic material, and if You live close together and You have some potential in one location, then... you just probably don't need a project like "Fort Knox" at all.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

A summary of the topics spoken about at the conference.

View attachment Report-BeeConference2018.pdf


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

very nice sibylle. many thanks to you and all who put the english version together and for posting it here.

i'm looking forward to reading it.


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## bonluk (Dec 31, 2014)

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPMJi2N9lr7chkcOwbg8PAD6zIj_aNhoA


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

welcome to beesource bonluk and thanks for the youtube links. unfortunately the lectures are presented in german and most of the readership here is english speaking.


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

hallo to everyone,
as bonluk linked - we have published the films from Austria.

Squarepeg, not every speach is in German (if there is anyone that would help is in translating German speaking lectures and put English subtitles please write us!). 



I give specific links to the presentations:

these are:
- Benjamin Rutschmann's speach (German): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TP6yYd2d6z0

- Wolfgang Wimmer's speach (German): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le5NmRKtwcY

- Jürgen Küppers' speach (German): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcUefteoqWo

- John Kefuss' speach (English): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeXOAxnUcPs

- Juhani Lunden's speach (English): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSbBAAa1fwQ

- Erik Österlund's speach (English): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4a1bvrVyHI

- Piotr Piłasiewicz's speach (English): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XjAdlCyYns

- my speach (English): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozAnBZlNWl0

and:
- interview with Norbert Dorn (English): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjkZ9pTHrWQ


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thanks for correcting me bfp. i only tried looking at a couple of them before i made my post.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i just finished watching the interview with norbert dorn.

excellent job norbert putting the conference together!

will be watching beesource members bfp's, juhani's, and erik's presentations next.


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

BeesFromPoland said:


> hallo to everyone,
> as bonluk linked - we have published the films from Austria.
> 
> Squarepeg, not every speach is in German (if there is anyone that would help is in translating German speaking lectures and put English subtitles please write us!).
> ...


and there is one more (last of the recorded speaches that we have consent to publish):

Andre Wermelinger's speach (German): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCh-gIYVnNY


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

bfp, just finished watching your presentation, good job!

it's very gratifying to hear about the cooperation going on. it's something we don't often see or even hear about in the beekeeping world. 

best of luck to you and your friends with the fort knox project, i think the concept is brilliant.

so who is the bearded man illustrated on your shirt?

is it true that you road your bicycle all the way from poland to austria for the conference?

and did you draw the cartoons for your presentation slides?


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Well I got you right with that little camera, Bartek, my friend! 

Square, I already applied to the "Fort Knox" initiative to take me in ( my group) and support me with material for speakings, for example.
It´s a great approach I hope to spread to others.

At my today`s beekeepers meeting we 5 serious workers realized we do the same but did not give it a name. So why cook our own soup? I would like a nationwide connection. Not to exchange colonies but to exchange ideas.

Since I want to give credit to the founders I want to be a part of this group.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

sounds great sibylle! 

i would happily put a few of my hives into such a project were it available here.

(i heard you say 'thank you' in the background during norbert's interview,  )


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

i just finished watching your presentation juhani, very interesting!

it is great getting to put a face and a voice with the contributor.

is the reason you decided to use small hives in your program to 'test' the bees' ability to make it through your long cold winters?

you mentioned that the italian package producer found your bees to be exceptional as compared to other stock they were looking at. was it that your bees showed more mite resistance or were there other traits the supplier found desirable?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I have not watched all of them yet but it is on the bucket list. Thanks for highlighting the ones done in english.
gww


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

squarepeg said:


> bfp, just finished watching your presentation, good job!
> 
> it's very gratifying to hear about the cooperation going on. it's something we don't often see or even hear about in the beekeeping world.
> 
> best of luck to you and your friends with the fort knox project, i think the concept is brilliant.


thank You




squarepeg said:


> so who is the bearded man illustrated on your shirt?


it's Charles Darwin. Maybe You can't see that on the film, but he has beard out of comb and bees 



squarepeg said:


> is it true that you road your bicycle all the way from poland to austria for the conference?


yes, that is true, however that was not that great challange. only about 400 km in one direction, so about 800 km altogether 



squarepeg said:


> and did you draw the cartoons for your presentation slides?


no, that drawings, were made by our friend from association "Free Bees" - Mariusz Uchman, who prepared the graphical part of the presentation as well. (and he did Darwin too)


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Any chance the Darwin bee shirts could become more widely available?


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

lharder said:


> Any chance the Darwin bee shirts could become more widely available?


to tell the truth we haven't thought about that. They were made for association members....


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

squarepeg said:


> i just finished watching your presentation juhani, very interesting!
> 
> it is great getting to put a face and a voice with the contributor.
> 
> ...


Ok, thanks. I will never look the video myself. 

The 70 small hives were the only ones left totally untreated in the beginning (2001-2006). The idea was to get instant results with less money lost. 

The large normal hives were going through the treatment diminishing program 2001-2008. Large hives have been without treatments after 2008. I wanted to give the bees time to adjust, but on the other hand I wanted to get instant results with bond. So I made a compromise. 


Yes, Luca Consigli found out that my stock was the most resistant stock he had tested. Central Europe is very densely populated and he looked at the behavior of the bees too. Some of the bee material he tested was just way too hot.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

BeesFromPoland said:


> to tell the truth we haven't thought about that. They were made for association members....


I have one too.


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## BeesFromPoland (Dec 27, 2014)

Juhani Lunden said:


> I have one too.


...Yea... we made some for the gifts too


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

another conference in europe coming up later this summer:

https://www.naturalbeekeepingtrust.org/conference


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

There is something happening in europe.
The nether land conference is more international.
I would have loved to hear T. Seeley, but no this time I can´t take part.

Some actions done in germany are very interesting.
People do not care much about insects since they are no pets or not to be eaten. This must change.
Agriculture must be aware of the importance of pollination insects too since they are a part of the ecosystem.

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/se...ere-ein-supermarkt-ohne-bienen-a-1207703.html

>>>The loss of biodiversity, especially of pollinators, has alarmed Europe.
In Hanover, a supermarket has taken a re-announced action and removed 60% of the products from the shelves.
All products that need bees or wild insects to exist.

As Mr. Nagel puts it:

The shelves are fullest with wine, beer and spirits - because wine and hops pollinate themselves. "We can still get drunk in the future, but otherwise things will get tight," says Stefan Nagel, CEO of Rewe.<<<


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

SiWolKe said:


> There is something happening in europe. The nether land conference is more international.
> 
> People do not care much about insects since they are no pets or not to be eaten. This must change.


In Finland one step has been taken: after a legislation change it is now legal to produce insects for human consumption. For instance pig farming has been in economical crisis for years and now many of them have sold their pigs and started to grow crickets. Products, made like meat, are already in our shops. Some beekeepers have started to produce drone larvae, they are sold (frozen) to top restaurants, with top prices. 
This has been a lot in the news, the attitude towards insect food, and I hope the awareness of the importance of insects in general, has changed.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Hi Juhani,
can you post some links to the news, magazines or newspapers? This is interesting. No matter if another language.

I am invited to take part in a project at my small hometown to give courses on different topics.

I will offer the building of wild bees nesting places. I hope this will change the townspeople to not using pesticides in their home gardens and change the plantings to more natural habitats.
Garden design goes to stone and grasses with sealed ground and I want them to go back to flowers and open ground.

Following might be a speaking about honey bees and environment and the importance of pollinators.

This about insects as food could be a topic too.


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## Juhani Lunden (Oct 3, 2013)

Headlines in English:
"Restaurant is making hamburgers out of drone larvae - the test group of the Finnish Broadcasting Company (YLE) tried the latest product of the insect food boom"

https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-10053752


"Crikets are now sold in retail to restaurants- We must start the change in the western world and show the way to future"

http://www.maaseuduntulevaisuus.fi/ruoka/artikkeli-1.223706


"A Finnish company wants to solve the world famine with the help of insect food"

https://www.mtv.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/...nalanhadan-hyonteisruualla/5143828#gs.mvxhP_w


Companies producing insect food or the machinery:
https://www.entis.fi/new-index/
https://www.entocube.com/yleis/
https://www.samufoods.com/horeca
https://www.ruohonjuuri.fi/ruoka/hyonteisruoka
https://www.hyvinvoinnin.fi/collections/hyonteisruoka

Recepies for cooking:
https://www.k-ruoka.fi/artikkelit/k-kaupassa/sirkat


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Thanks Juhani!

Sorry about the off topic.
I found avery good interview about insects.
http://www.wn.de/Muenster/2017/04/2...n-Warum-wir-Garnelen-moegen-aber-keine-Raupen
It is said that 2018 they want to permit import but check first what they want to import. Not to set free something like varroa?? good. There must be a market now starting this.
They want to check about how and what food the insect need, they do not want to use corn, rather greens ( waste would be fine).

It´s good people change their attitude with respect to insects. I must try to find out if wax moth larvae and SHB larvae can be fried. SHB when it arrives.
I already tasted insects in thailand and it was a good experience.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Juhani Lunden said:


> ..... Some beekeepers have started to produce drone larvae, they are sold (frozen) to top restaurants, with top prices.
> This has been a lot in the news, the attitude towards insect food, and I hope the awareness of the importance of insects in general, has changed.


Not long ago I have spoken about harvesting drone larva for food and was called a troll (by the TF folks too, of all people).


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

A war was fought by two Amerindian tribes over the right to harvest worms that crawled onto the shore of a western lake. Eating insects has been around for millenia.


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Interview with Erik Österlund.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLXTldX-hL8


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Interview with Juhani Lunden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNaZ_Qinn2M


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## 1102009 (Jul 31, 2015)

Interview with John Kefuss.

We are sorry about the background noise. It´s an amateur video I did and I could not ask for silence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyiyqcTB644&t=13s


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

thank you sibylle, i'm looking forward to watching this.


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