# How common are medium nucs?



## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

they become more common every season, however there is a metric handful of ways to start with a standard deep and end up with all mediums. a search for converting deeps to mediums will provide you with at least a days worth of reading. You could always just order a package and if you are worried about locally acclimated bees, purchasing a local queen and re-queening mid season.


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## warrior (Nov 21, 2005)

Very uncommon. All mediums is an Internet phenomena not reality in the real beekeeping community.

I'm in the largest beekeeping state east of the big ditch, past two term president of one of the largest clubs in the state, plugged in to my own state association, know beeks all across the state and honestly know of no one keeping bees in all mediums as a matter of course.


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## warrior (Nov 21, 2005)

Honestly if you have to go that route you might as well buy westerns instead of mediums.


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

ericw said:


> I'm getting into beekeeping and I like the idea of sticking exclusively with Langstroth mediums, even for the brood chamber, due to complete intercompatibility. However, I'm having a hard time finding people in my area (southern Oregon, Grants Pass area) who provide medium nucs. Any suggestions on how to get bees that are suitable for this climate while pursuing this strategy?
> 
> Thanks!


I would suggest that your first two hives be single deep brood chambers with a medium on top of that. You can buy your nucs anywhere then. Your queen will lay in the first medium as well and you make your own medium nucs or splits. The other thing you can do is buy packages, and go straight to mediums. If you are leaning toward mediums, do it ASAP. so you only have a couple of deeps to cut down later, instead of a bunch, like I did. I can tell you that I'm glad I went to all mediums, just wish I had done it to start with.

Oh, Mr. Bush uses all mediums, he's got hundreds of hives in ND so he's even colder than you are.


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## ericw (Feb 11, 2016)

Thanks, everyone. Having feedback this early in the process means I'm less likely to have things go horribly wrong... 

Warrior, what is the difference between a western and a medium?


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

Five frame medium boxes are too small to make "beginner proof" colonies. You need to double them and then it is easier to put them in a full size box. Remember 8 frames of medium == 5 frames of deep.

Yup, I market medium colonies to meet the naive "hobby" demand --- but they need to be priced with all the costs added in. Hobby colonies need to be priced for the "hassle factor" of dealing with newbees.

I have one order for two colonies pending, and after getting an email today, I scrolled back through the email chain === I have more than 40 emails I have had to deal with just for this one sale. I am ready to give them the hives, if in exchange, I never have to answer another question on keeping bees like they do over missle silo's in SE Nebraska.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

>> Oh, Mr. Bush uses all mediums, he's got hundreds of hives in ND so he's even colder than you are.

Well, Michael Bush's bees are in _Nebraska_, not North Dakota. Certainly, either of those states is colder than Florida though.

Eric, welcome to Beesource!

May I suggest contacting (and joining) the Southern Oregon Beekeepers Association ...
http://www.southernoregonbeekeepers.org/
You _may_ find that a local member can provide the medium nucs you are interested in.


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## WLeeH (Jan 16, 2015)

I think it depends on where you live. I know lots of beeks in northern IL that keep all mediums, and have medium nucs available.


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## warrior (Nov 21, 2005)

A western super is an obscure super size. To the best of my knowledge the only source of boxes frames and wax is Western Bee Supply out of Montana. I can not tell you the history or anything else about that size.

They are exactly one inch taller than a medium for a 7 5/8" box. The reason I say might as well is IMO a medium alone is to small for brood and having a break in the brood nest with two mediums leads to congestion right where everything should be smooth.

I know it can be done as bees are highly adaptable to cavity size and shape. No two hollow trees are the same. But for beekeeping we need to make things as easy as possible on the beekeeping so they can focus on putting up a surplus.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Too common. :lpf::lookout:Sorry.


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## dr4ngas (Mar 19, 2014)

Don't let all these people talk you out of mediums. I am running 3 medium nuc boxes for my starting hive right now. They are going strong through this seasons winter. You have to look around for the mediums but they are out there to be found. Yes you may need to have more boxes for the bees to use for brood but that's fine. We even had an older lady use all shallows for her hive. Yes for the brood and suppers. Remember have fun and enjoy the hobby.


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

Quick question?

If one was selling medium nucs, how many frames are the "standard" number? Eight mediums equal five deeps? How are they transported away if they are actually in eight frames? Is there a different charge for a "nuc-sized set" of medium frames vs a deep nuc? Assume both would be genuine, overwintered-queen, nuc colonies, not mix 'n match bees with a new queen recently dumped in the box.

I understand an upcharge for the hobbyist hassle factor, but if I sold bees all my customers would probably beekeepers like me, not even sideliners who could easily make as many bees as they needed. 

I prefer (and so do my girls, I think) all deeps but I keep hearing this chatter about mediums so I have been wondering about the number of frames.

Thanks,

Enj.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

deleted. Redundant.


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## tech.35058 (Jul 29, 2013)

enjambres said:


> Quick question?
> 
> If one was selling medium nucs, how many frames are the "standard" number? Eight mediums equal five deeps? How are they transported away if they are actually in eight frames? Is there a different charge for a "nuc-sized set" of medium frames vs a deep nuc? Assume both would be genuine, overwintered-queen, nuc colonies, not mix 'n match bees with a new queen recently dumped in the box.
> 
> ...


Like others, I could not find medium nucs, & had to start with deep nucs. If I get to the point of selling bees, per another thread on beesource, a "nuc" is just 5 frames. I think Dadant offered "filler" boxes to go in the bottom of cardboard nucs to make it "right".
I think I would be more inclined to sell a "starter hive" , 8 frames, a permanent ( standard 8 frame) medium box, with a real top & bottom board. But for me this "maybe next year".


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

enjambres said:


> If one was selling medium nucs, how many frames are the "standard" number? Eight mediums equal five deeps? How are they transported away if they are actually in eight frames? Is there a different charge for a "nuc-sized set" of medium frames vs a deep nuc?


I described my medium nuc market a couple of times. A quick summary -- I have 5 frame sized mating boxes (with an internal feeder so only 3 frames in the mating phase). Selected queens are promoted to nucs, without changing the box. I bolster the population with a second box newspaper combine with shook bees and brood. This yields 8 or 10 frames of bees (depending on if I pull the frame feeder). 

Double stack nucs with new queens really take off. 

The double stack nucs are broken down into single mediums (8 or 10 frame) for sale. The singles have a single bore hole entrance. Top and bottoms are identical OSB/Ply sheets cut 23x16 1/4" with an added 2x2 sticker at the front and back. Bottom board faces up and top faces down -- yielding a box sandwich.

I instruct folks getting the single depth boxes (fabricated from 1x8 redwood fenceboard) to simply plop the boxes on their bottom board. I have discovered that new keepers really freeze up during the nuc>to>hive transfer -- and the wholesale "plop" without frame transfer is much simpler for them.

Medium single box nucs are more expensive in hardware and development (as they have 8 to 10 frames). This extra expense is offset by two factors: 1) Pulling medium frames is easier than deeps (especially for that holy grail of Bush cultists -- foundationless frames). 2) End of summer medium honey frames can be repurposed for spring nucs. Medium honey frames and boxes are always in surplus in the spring, and turning those empty boxes into early cash is a benefit.

The perceived value of a full size box, and the ease with which installation proceeds are benefits to the customer. The "fenceboard" boxes are not bad -- redwood-- so they are lightweight, and have sufficient structure to hold up to hobby use.

I leave a fold of screen over the bore hole. If robbing becomes an issue for the new beek, they can close the bottom entrance and use the bore hole as a robber screen. Robbing is the most serious late summer issue locally especially for new beek and young hives.


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## HarryMan (Jun 23, 2014)

I run all medium equipment and have for a few years. It has been so nice to not have to double up on wooden ware but to be able to interchange for whatever use needed. I live in NC. Temps have been in the teens. My 5x5 mediums are doing just fine. To each his own....DJ


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Around here medium nucs come in 8 frame boxes, beginners love them, take them home slap them on a bottom board anand add a box of foundation and a lid and walk away, and like JW said empty drawn mediums are easy to come by early spring to make splits with to make up nucs


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

When you get your nuc on deep frames, have two mediums half filled with medium frames on one side. Put your deep frames in the remaining space and as the bees expand on to the medium frames they will not lay eggs on the outside frame. When the brood is emerged, pull it and slide the frames to fill the now empty rank and put medium frames up and down on the other side. Repeat as required.

I started running some colonies in mediums just to see if I liked it and found I don't. It costs more in equipment and increases the required work during inspections or manipulations. People run all mediums, all deeps, two deeps and a medium or a deep and a medium. I have three different configurations alive and wintering right now. It is just not a big thing, it all works.


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

I run all mediums, and I was influenced by my bee mentor who also runs all mediums. I have had a hard time finding medium nuc boxes, also. Brushy Mountain does sell a double medium nuc, and it looks very nice, only it comes with a telescoping lid and I wanted migratory. If I order piecemeal it's more expensive.

The main reason I like all mediums is for frame interchangeability. Russian queens tend to lay all over the hive, even in the supers. I don't use excluders.

I thought recently about going to deep brood boxes, but the thing that keeps getting in the way is interchangeability. Also, they're heavy. If you have 3 brood boxes, you're in for a chiropractor. I don't want deep nucs because then I can't put them in my medium hives. It's a real dilemma.

I don't think you need more frames with a medium nuc than with a deep. Just stack another medium nuc on top, that's a double nuc, can't imagine there would be a space issue.

Maybe if I were to do it all over again, I'd go with 8 frame boxes and do deeps that way. No way sounds perfect.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

50 yrs ago we started out with deeps but 20 yrs ago changed to all med brood and honey. everything is interchangeable. we are happy with this system and would not go back. the biggest disadvantage is the extra supers needed. If I was to sell nucs I would sell as a bottom, super and cover. that way a beginner only has to add a box with no frame transfer. there is a good market for med nucs. they are now passed away but one of the biggest commercial outfits in ny with 3000 hives used to recommend 3 mediums for wintering in ny. before mites they ran with less than 5% winter loss. they were excellent beekeeper though. we now winter in sc in 2 mediums and make splits in 1 med. this allows us to transport bees north with less weight and just have to add a super in may and they build up fast.


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## orthoman (Feb 23, 2013)

I don't live that far away from you but climate is a little different -- yours is slightly colder. 

I use medium nucs for all my splits and have no problems. I routinely overwinter 5 over 5 nucs. I also use all medium equipment to minimize weight and everything is interchangeable. 

Can you buy medium nucs? That might be a little more difficult but you might find someone selling them. 

In your area, Call or google Old-Sol Apiaries and see what he can do for you. He sells "survivor stock" that come from your area. Their address is Grants Pass.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

Pretty common around here!


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## JWChesnut (Jul 31, 2013)

rkereid said:


> Pretty common around here!
> 
> View attachment 22875


I count one single story in that picture. 
All those double and triple stacks are full size singles in an expensive and difficult to market configuration. Medium nucs are easy to create in a hobby backyard, but to the extent "nuc" implies a self-contained unit that can be sold, a double or triple stack is a non-starter.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Too common. :lpf::lookout:Sorry.


I don't know why you say that.


Harley Craig said:


> Around here medium nucs come in 8 frame boxes, beginners love them,


Why wouldn't they? I think 8 frame is a better choice if you go all mediums. It concentrates the winter cluster and you will have less problems getting the queen to cross the gaps between frames.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

JWChesnut said:


> I count one single story in that picture.
> All those double and triple stacks are full size singles in an expensive and difficult to market configuration. Medium nucs are easy to create in a hobby backyard, but to the extent "nuc" implies a self-contained unit that can be sold, a double or triple stack is a non-starter.


This picture was taken in the end of July when all the splits, that originated as single boxes, have been built up (supered) for overwintering. 5 frames are sold in the following spring and the remainder is used to create more single box splits to start over again. It's a basic expansion model, that's self sustaining.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

JWChesnut said:


> I count one single story in that picture.
> Medium nucs are easy to create in a hobby backyard, but to the extent "nuc" implies a self-contained unit that can be sold, a double or triple stack is a non-starter.


Prior to the customer coming to pic up the nuc shake all the bees into the single box that has the most brood and the customer will love it. When he gets home he adds an empty box on top. Any brood frames that are the result of shaking can be used to boost other hives.


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## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I use all 8 frame mediums and sell 8 frame medium starter hives - sold out for '16. Every system has it's advantages and disadvantages.

If you want to go all mediums and can't get med nucs then start with packages. If that doesn't get you the kind of bees you want then requeen them. No big deal. Nucs are a great way to start, but packages don't transmit brood diseases as readily. Every system has it's advantages.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

ericw said:


> Any suggestions on how to get bees that are suitable for this climate while pursuing this strategy?


Use word of mouth, social media, and free online listings to collect swarms or do cutouts; build swarm traps; and, once you get started, make your own splits. I use only eight frame mediums. Every system has advantages and disadvantages, but the advantages of the system I use increase for me each year. Your mileage may vary.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Oh, Mr. Bush uses all mediums, he's got hundreds of hives in ND so he's even colder than you are.

Yea, like Radeer said, Nebraska...

You can get medium nucs from a lot of places if you ask for them the summer before... you can get them from Dixie Bee Supply (Fatbeeman) or Wolf Creek. There are others. But the general rule is that nucs come in deeps. As JW says, eight medium frames is the equivalent to five deeps, but five medium frames of bees does fine to start a colony. Obviously eight will do better...


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## NewbeeInNH (Jul 10, 2012)

My plans for early summer, should my bees cooperate by surviving and then providing queen cells, is to get 5 double medium nucs and split them into 10 single medium nucs (w/extra solid bottoms and migratory tops). Then I'll put a (hopefully) queen cell in each, and as they populate, use them to start 5 medium hives, pulling excess brood frames out of the remaining nucs to bolster the new hives. I'm hoping this will lead to 5 thriving medium hives by fall, and 5 nucs left, which I will convert to 5 over 5 doubles for overwintering.

I feel like Dr. Frankenstein.


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## dixieswife (Apr 15, 2013)

Hi Eric, welcome. I'm just up the road from you in Rogue River, not far from Old Sol. We're going into our fourth year with bees here. I have bought nucs from Old Sol or Matthew Lake (also in RR) and though we happen to have a mix of boxes right now (couple deeps, many 3/4s, many mediums, and a top bar), we've certainly had to adapt a standard nuc to fit into a not-a-deep-Lang hive more than once. 

I am not aware of any medium nucs in the area.

What we have done in the past is order a local nuc with wooden frames, and cut the comb and/or frame to fit the kind of hive we want it in. You must take care and don't do it on a hot sunny day where the comb is gonna melt on you. 

For a medium, I'd probably just cut the deep frame down to size by removing the bottom of the frame and cutting the ends and comb/foundation/wire along the bottom to a medium depth. We've had frames without bottoms on them and the bees don't appear to care.

You can also, with a bit more mess and the assistance of a bunch of rubber bands, cut comb out of the deep frame and rubber band it into a medium foundationless one. The bees will reattach and eventually remove the rubber bands. Keep an eye on the rubber banded frames when you inspect just to make sure they aren't whonky, but more often than not, they'll be fine. If not, just fix them again and rerubber band.

It all a bit of extra work, but not that much work and you get the benefit of the comb still, as opposed to ordering in a package.


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## ericw (Feb 11, 2016)

dixieswife said:


> Hi Eric, welcome. I'm just up the road from you in Rogue River, not far from Old Sol. We're going into our fourth year with bees here. I have bought nucs from Old Sol or Matthew Lake (also in RR) and though we happen to have a mix of boxes right now (couple deeps, many 3/4s, many mediums, and a top bar), we've certainly had to adapt a standard nuc to fit into a not-a-deep-Lang hive more than once.



Thanks, everyone. 

@dixieswife - Awesome, neighbor! I ended up putting a deposit on a medium nuc from Noah's Bees & Products in Grants Pass. Hopefully it turns out well. 

I know I should probably start more than one nuc, but I hate investing so much in a hobby this early in the game. I'm a woodworker too, and while that's a great hobby, it can be spendy as well. I'm going to build all my own boxes, bases, and lids, so at least one hobby can help offset the cost of another... 

All that being said, I think I'm going to want 2-4 hives in the next couple years (and probably more), so does anyone have any thoughts on splitting a first-year hive?


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## dixieswife (Apr 15, 2013)

I didn't know about Noah, glad to know medium nucs are out there locally!

It's very easy to build your own boxes and inexpensive unless you get all fancy about it. Much cheaper than buying boxes. We generally only buy frames right now but we aren't really as handy with wood as some. If we can make boxes, anyone can. 

If you can afford it, I'd really really really recommend having two hives to start with. We started with one and found out early on why two is better (lost the first/only one, twice and it really sets ya back). If one fails, you aren't out all your bees; you can share resources between them, etc. Even if you see it as just a hobby, two is really better than one. 

At any rate, good luck, and I hope your bees do well for you. It's fun, so long as you are OK with getting stung and making mistakes. 'Cause you will get stung and make mistakes! (or make mistakes and get stung for it, too)


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## Robbin (May 26, 2013)

dixieswife said:


> If you can afford it, I'd really really really recommend having two hives to start with. We started with one and found out early on why two is better (lost the first/only one, twice and it really sets ya back). If one fails, you aren't out all your bees; you can share resources between them, etc. Even if you see it as just a hobby, two is really better than one.


+1 on the 2 hives to start with. You can save a hive with resources from another.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

ericw said:


> so does anyone have any thoughts on splitting a first-year hive?


If you have never had a hive before I wouldn't do it. Not because it is difficult but more because you will have so many uncertainties in your first year that adding a split could break the camels back. Try to get a handle on what beekeeping you want to do and how to be successful at it and then your second year go for it.


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