# Inspecting without smoker



## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

Are they attacking your veil or just running into as they fly around? I don't use a smoker or a veil and its seems as though the bees hardly notice I am there. Its hard to imagine that any inspection gentle enough to not trigger a single sting would set them back in a noticeable way.


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## jdawdy (May 22, 2012)

My bees are pretty gentle and I could work them without a smoker (I dont use one to do things like fill the frame feeder), but to be honest, I feel like it's better for the bees when I do a thorough inspection if I smoke them. The smoke inhibits the spread of those alarm pheromones, so the bees don't get upset, and to my mind, the less upset they are, the better off they are.


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

I've inspected my hive without a smoker many times, and have never had a problem. My bees are very gentle. I only started using it to clear the burr comb on the top of the frames of the bottom box, right before I reassemble the hive.


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## rwilly (Apr 6, 2012)

They are attacking me, but it is only 2-3 bees that get aggresive.

I don't know how you guys work without veils, I see FatBeeMan vids and he doesn't wear one either. 
No thanks, I am sure I would be stung multiple times without mine.

Thanks for the replys, Ron


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## Splatt (Jul 11, 2012)

rwilly said:


> They are attacking me, but it is only 2-3 bees that get aggresive.


Probably the guards. It's their job to be aggressive. 

I wear a veil, too. I don't want to get stung in the face.


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

Well, nobody likes being stung. 

Its not a matter of being tough, its a matter of moving so you don't get stung. If I got stung very often I would wear a veil.


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## jip (Apr 10, 2009)

If your hives are near your neighbor's, probably best to use smoke when going into the hive or else those guard bees can chase someone.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

I have several bee yards where I won't use a smoker due to it being a fire hazard. I can't tell much difference in their behavior to be honest.


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## dansk (Aug 8, 2012)

There is some damage caused to the hive everytime you open it, whether you smoke or not. This is because the hive is a sealed environment. The bees work tirelessly to control the temperature and humidity inside the hive. That is why they also make an effort to seal every crack and crevice. When you open the hive it breaks the propolis seal the bees have made. It also allows warm air to escape, and moisture in the form of humid air to enter the hive. Finally, it can disrupt the bees activity pattern, even if just for a short time. In extreme cases, a hive that is checked too often could lead to the bees rejecting the queen. Just a few things to consider.

In time you will see that your best performing hives are the ones that you tinker with the least.

Also, you may want to try spraying with sugar syrup and essential oils as an alternative to smoke.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Every hive is different. Every day is different. If you want them calm, then use smoke. It has been proven over tens of thousands of years. If you don't want to use smoke, then get used to them being upset and get used to it taking them several days to get over an inspection because you got them upset...


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## clumsy red bear (Jun 15, 2012)

I use the lemongrass and spearmint oils mixed in sugar syrup because I don't have a smoker ($$ to order + shipping). Anyway, they seem to like it my form of bribery lol, pretty tolerant bunch. Aren't they just usually a little more aggressive in the fall guarding their honey anyway, smoker or not? this is just my first hive, I don't know much. I have found out impatience = stings. I got my first sting after 4 months yesterday ...


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## Sam Fugate (Jul 28, 2012)

Is it possible that they can sense or detect when you are nervous around them ? My brother has helped me twice with my bees and twice he has been stung multiple times and I haven't been stung. He admits that he is scared of the bees .I am completely calm around them and have not been stung "YET". I do use smoke.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Charlie B said:


> I have several bee yards where I won't use a smoker due to it being a fire hazard. I can't tell much difference in their behavior to be honest.


Most of us can crack a cover without smoke to check if the hive needs another super. I would like you to demonstrate dismantling the whole brood chamber looking for the queen not using smoke and without being bundled up in your Ultrabreeze. And with the site homeowner watching close by with no bee suit also. And his dog there barking also. And a few gardeners weed whipping around the hives. And with feral bees, not one of your recent Olivarez package queens.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

odfrank said:


> I would like you to demonstrate dismantling the whole brood chamber looking for the queen not using smoke and without being bundled up in your Ultrabreeze. And with the site homeowner watching close by with no bee suit also. And his dog there barking also. And a few gardeners weed whipping around the hives. And with feral bees, not one of your recent Olivarez package queens.


I don't have to deal with all those distractions and I would never open up a hive without my trusty Ultra!
If you weren't so cheap maybe you could save some of those hives of yours by re-queening with good quality Olivarez queens!


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## mrobinson (Jan 20, 2012)

Bees will commonly "body-slam" you, especially in the general direction of your face, because this_is_ a very effective defensive move that does not require them to actually sting you therefore die. I think they track the carbon dioxide trail of your breath.

It works well to use peppermint oil in water (which also disrupts the alarm pheromone if you get stung), but the bottom line is to use what works best for _you._ As has been said, "humans have been using smoke for thousands of years" with great success.

You've got to feel comfortable enough when inspecting your bees to be able to inspect your bees, so to speak, "without freaking." To focus on the job at hand and do it.

They're not _per se_ out to get you: they're out to defend their hive. You just happen to _be_ what they are defending against. (Don't take it personally, because, given what you happen to be doing, well, you _are!)

_ You will get stung! Maybe this time, maybe not. Don't know when or how often, and sometimes you have to withdraw ... making a mental note to find out what the upturn in aggression might possibly be a bellwether of. These are stinging insects and that's that.

I don't know whether or not bees "sense" anything about you. (I don't know if such a thing would make you seem more vs. less worth dying for ...) I do observe that if you move slowly and methodically ... it's almost like a dance ... and make no hurried motions, they tend not to zap. Which is of course somewhat more difficult to do if they just did. 

I've also noticed in the case of our hTBH hives that the _number of_ openings between bars seems to make a difference in the extent of their defensive reaction. (And it makes sense: such a thing _would indeed be_ an indication that the integrity of the hive has been seriously compromised.) 

Making moves with a bee-brush, gently, rather than your hands, is always preferable. With your clumsy fingers you can easily injure them or knock their wings off, especially if you're moving impulsively. Keep that brush in your hand.


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

I'll make a video of a no smoke, no veil, no sting inspection anytime you want but not with all those other things going on. The whole point is that if you do it slow and careful you don't need any of that stuff. 

But do it however is easiest for you. If you would rather fire up a smoker and put on a suit then go for it. I would rather spend twice as long doing it "naked".


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## rwilly (Apr 6, 2012)

I hear people say how smoke will make them think the hive is on fire and they get busy eating honey etc, but I have never heard that smoke calms them. I guess the old saying is true about asking 12 beekeepers the same question and getting thirteen answers. I am obviously new to this and enjoy reading other people opinions.
If I stick with keeping bees for any length of time I will form my own ideas and answers then I can add to the confusion. LOL
I appreciate all the replies, Ron


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

rwilly said:


> I hear people say how smoke will make them think the hive is on fire


I think that those people attribute qualities to bees that bees do not posses. Same for people that say "the bees know best".

Bees have instincts, but do they really think or know anything?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>The whole point is that if you do it slow and careful you don't need any of that stuff. 

With some bees on some days, you may not. With many bees on many days you will if you want them to stay calm.

>I hear people say how smoke will make them think the hive is on fire and they get busy eating honey etc

A commonly repeated myth...

> but I have never heard that smoke calms them. 

Seriously? It has been a well known fact for thousands upon thousands of years...


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## rwilly (Apr 6, 2012)

I stand corrected, I have read that smoke calms bees and in the same sentence they say it tricks them into thinking there is a fire, I don't see how that would be calming, but if it has worked for thousands of years then who am I to argue.
Has anyone ever noticed a "smokey" flavor in the honey due to smoking?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Has anyone ever noticed a "smokey" flavor in the honey due to smoking? 

An appropriate amount of smoke is really very little. A puff in the door and one across the top usually. If you have a "smokey" flavor in your honey you are using way too much. You should NOT use smoke to drive them from the supers as that would be way too much and not a good use for smoke.


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## hoodswoods (May 15, 2009)

Bees sting instinctively and they don't aim - if your unlucky enough to take one in the eye before you blink - depth perception can be severly impacted. A minute to put on a veil and the discomfort can save a lifetime of seeing out of 1 eye.


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Actually, they do aim, at least guard bees do. Eyes and ears are the main target -- after all, natural predators have dense fur everywhere else, so attempting to sting there isn't as useful as getting a bear's eyes swollen shut. Big deterrent to messing about in the hive if you cannot see, eh?

When you stick your hands in a hive, they sting reflexively and don't aim. Ditto if you pinch them.

Peter


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## Aerindel (Apr 14, 2012)

> Bees sting instinctively and they don't aim - if your unlucky enough to take one in the eye before you blink - depth perception can be severly impacted. A minute to put on a veil and the discomfort can save a lifetime of seeing out of 1 eye.


Has this ever actually happened? Because this is the first I've head about bee stings causing actual blindness. What is the mechanism for it?


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## Scott_Terry (May 16, 2012)

I cracked the top on a hive Sunday morning without smoke (I've done it many,many times before) and got stung in the left eye lid. Eye swelled shut and about 30 hrs later I'm now just able to see out of my left eye and it still hurts like crazy! I'm going to use the smoker from now on!


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## Farrah (May 21, 2012)

I've also noticed in the case of our hTBH hives that the _number of_ openings between bars seems to make a difference in the extent of their defensive reaction. (And it makes sense: such a thing _would indeed be_ an indication that the integrity of the hive has been seriously compromised.) 

I'm very interested to hear more on this idea. I have a TBH and a Lang. My TBH got testy with me today and I'm wondering if I just went too far or too long.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

Scott_Terry said:


> I cracked the top on a hive Sunday morning without smoke (I've done it many,many times before) and got stung in the left eye lid. Eye swelled shut and about 30 hrs later I'm now just able to see out of my left eye and it still hurts like crazy! I'm going to use the smoker from now on!


The first time this happens to the "no smoker gurus" they might start to sing a different tune. Wish we could get those times on video.


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## lazy shooter (Jun 3, 2011)

I don't inspect my bees very often, but I am prone to removing the telescoping and inner cover to look into the top box and see how many frames are full and being worked. I usually don't wear any protection for this process, and I haven't been stung doing this over the past 16 months. So, I put on my beejacket with hood and attempted to make an inspection without smoke. I have never seen anything like that. Hundreds of bees were all over me. I quit and went home for the day. The next day I did the inspection with just a little bit of smoke, and all was well with only about half a dozen of the guard bees bussing and bumping my head. In my opinion, smoke is cheap.


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## mrobinson (Jan 20, 2012)

We ordinarily do not use smoke ... a spray-bottle of water with peppermint oil is ordinarily just fine ... _but_ ... to attempt to work with stinging insects without proper protection for one's hands and face is "nonsensical."

Honeybees are stinging insects, and one of the ways that they defend their hives is to follow the carbon dioxide trail of your breath to your _face,_ which they attack in two ways ... by "body slamming" themselves against you (without stinging), and by stinging. They will also sting the closest thing that's near to them, namely, your hands. All of these techniques are, of course, "highly effective."

This is, after all, "nothing personal." It's literally what they _do._ It's the defensive behavior that _protects_ all that yummy honey ... even though, when you're working with the hives, (from their insectoid point-of-view ...) the primary thing that they must defend against just happens to be _you._ Okay, deal with it.  You _know_ that "this is what honeybees do," and you _have_ the technology...

If inspecting your hives without the use of smoke happens to work well for you, as it does for us, "do that." Just remember that you don't gain any Brownie points (or "macho-duck points") based on whether it does or it doesn't. The bottom line is purely pragmatic: whatever you decide to do, it must actually _work_ for you. You need to be able to, one way or the other, concentrate on your inspection and timely accomplish it without being put-off by the reality of what's on the tail-end of every honeybee. "You have the technology."


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## rmcpb (Aug 15, 2012)

Depends what you are doing. If you have generally calm bees and only want a quick peek then a spray bottle with water is probably enough but if you are going any deeper then the water is great but its nice to have the smoker stoked up and sitting there if you need it. Kind of like carrying a jumper in winter, if its in the car and you don't need it - no harm, but if you don't have it and get cold then its a problem.

Its just being prepared and handling the situation on the day.


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## Adam Foster Collins (Nov 4, 2009)

I find it interesting that most of the people who share the wisdom here about not using smoke tend to be new beekeepers. I'm finishing my third season and am just this season able to easily light it and keep it lit for hours. I'm also finding it to be a great tool. I couldn't learn that by discarding it from the start. In truth, the first year, it was a total pain to deal with. I think that's when it gets discounted by people - when it seems like it's going to be work to learn to use.

A great teacher of mine once said, "learn the rules. Only then will you know how to effectively break them." 

I have been a teacher myself on and off for years. I see many many students begin the "learning" process by questioning the importance of the lesson. It's way easier to "master" something if you decide a lot of it isn't worth learning.

Adam


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

I use smoke mostly to put hives back together. A puff on the top of the frames and on the bottom of the box you are putting on saves you from crushing lots of bees. 

Smoke works and is one of the best tools we have. I rarely go without it.


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