# Measuring combs for foundation



## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Very simply, how are combs measured by beekeepers so they can buy foundation?

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Dee A. Lusby


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## gmh3 (Jun 22, 2001)

I believe that you measure the frame from the underside of the top bar , where the wedge goes down to the top of the bottom bar.

this measurement should correspond to the measurements given in bee supply catalog's.

you need to know whether your frames are divided bottom or solid bottom.


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Hi Dee,

Do you want dimensions of comb in the frame? Or the cell size?

Clay, from biobee list- thinking this is a bait question


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Hi Clay!!!

Now, would I bait you with a question like this?

Most beekeepers, when they purchase comb foundation, measure the woodenware, don't they? 

Now you tell me Clay, knowing the importance of the subject now, how would you measure comb foundation to buy it for your bees?

Dee
(Maybe thinking I can get Clay to answer and start another long dialogue on how to measure combs for you know what....:> ))


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Hi Dee,

Most beekeepers, when they purchase comb foundation, measure the woodenware, don't they? 

I hope so. Some don't.


Now you tell me Clay, knowing the importance of the subject now, how would you measure comb foundation to buy it for your bees?

By square decimeter. (or with a ruler)

Clay


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Concerning measuring comb foundation, do you think the new small cell foundaiton on the market actually has 8000 cells on it and when mounted in a frame this is reduced to 7200 available cells or so for the bees to use?

Dee

P.S. This is in regards to the Inner Cover in the August Bee Culture written by Kim Flottum.


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Hi Dee, 

Concerning measuring comb foundation, do you think the new small cell foundaiton on the market actually has 8000 cells on it and when mounted in a frame this is reduced to 7200 available cells or so for the bees to use?

reply:

Just got August issue as subscription ran out. It may have only 7200 cells when there is honey and pollen on the comb. I'm thinking it may me a bit more however.

Dee, is there a difference btween Dadants foundation and that which we mill? As far a number of cells is concerned?

Clay


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Clay,

You wrote:
Dee, is there a difference btween Dadants foundation and that which we mill? As far a number of cells is concerned?

Reply:

Oh my yes, Clay!!

Things have changed much since Dadant first started milling foundation and this has direct bearing on the product made.

First of all Clay, Dadant no longer has workers hand dip the foundation and then mill it and cut it to size. They have modernized and in doing so a very important change took place in the final product end result.

Nowadays, the wax is sheeted into large rolls of wax, stored, cured, and then put through long, large assembly lines that can fudge and stretch the foundation longer on the horizontal and thus bigger in size. I think you have already seen the results of this.

But when wax is dipped and sheeted by hand and then taken warm to mill the pattern right from the warm dipping boards,to the embossing rollers, you get quite a different result. The warm wax then shrinks in the opposite direction. Thus Clay you can quite easily end up with foundation from a 4.9mm mill measuring 4.8mm and on average 4.83mm average.

Does the number sound familiar???

Best regards,

Dee


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## Clayton (Dec 8, 2000)

Hi Dee,

Thanks for info. I was actually wondering about the difference between the cell pattern of Dadant and Tom. Does one have more cells than the other?

Does the number sound familiar???

reply:

Yes.


Clay


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## Dee A. Lusby (Oct 4, 2000)

Hi Clay

Does one have more cells than the other you now want to know!!!!

Reply:

Well yes I think so, though probably not that many. 

Having seen the various mills of Toma's over the years I would say that Toma's mills probably have a few more cell than Dadants'(IMOPOV) But it is due to the thickness cut for the cell walls. 

Here one has to be careful as the bees thin down the walls always with no exception and exten the wax upward. When doing this then the cell can be ever so slightly enlarged due to the thinning of the walls.

I like the mill I have from Tom because if I hand sheet my wax thin to just kiss the diamond match pattern, then I get little to no cells walls and just the triangular pattern for a cell imprint.

This I consider very important Clay even though some don't.

Reason: The walls act like an artificial coral for the bees to keep the cell wanted on the foundation more true to size, but then do I want thined down walls in some cases. 

With the diamond match pattern produced without cell walls and then hot wax sheets used on top of that I get better foundation in the 4.8 range and the bees have a chance to go to the smaller side of the spectrum for naturally smaller brood combs by choice, rather then by force. 

That way F1 hybrids stand a better choice for close to 4.9mm top tolerance and purer strain bees stand a better choice for close to the middle of the 4.8mm range or slightly lower (4.83 average to 4.87). 

Regards

Dee


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