# steps to TF ?



## J.Lee (Jan 19, 2014)

To start with you are going to have to start with treatment free bees or requeen to treatment free queens. Pol-Line, V.P. Queens, Olympic Wilderness ect. There are others. Also you are going to have to deal with the fact that in exchange for not treating you are going to have to deal with a MUCH stronger swarm instinct. Hope this helps. I'm treatment free for five years. Good Luck.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

IMO There are factors that you may not be able to overcome. Probably the biggest one is isolation from "inferior" commercial genes. 

Try to find a local TF in your area, and get genetic stock from them. 

Swarm trap feral survivors. 

http://beesource.com/resources/usda...ney-bees-from-locally-adapted-stock-a-recipe/

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?281640-Going-Treatment-Free-step-1


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## ShrekVa (Jan 13, 2011)

First get ahold of some stock that you feel are resilient enough to suit you, either purchase them or get them through swarm catching/ removals. Evaluate the bees, keep in mind "survivor bees" from trees and other small cavities swarm often and this undoubtedly helps in their resistance to mites. After evaluating the bees long enough to understand their traits, pick a couple queens that are a good starting point and raise some queens. From these choose the ones that are as resistant as the parent stock or better, but are also displaying better honey production. In my experience "survivor/feral bees" have been poor producers in general, but tough. You can then continue selecting daughters that have more and more of the traits you want, not forgetting to allow your best hives to produce all the drones that they want. This process takes a lot of time, you will kill or let die a lot of bees. Since this is my hobby I could afford to "play" with the bees. After around 5 years I'm starting to see some good bees in my opinion, they are alive for one and finally making me some honey. It just takes some time, good luck.


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

This is good, it sounds everyone is in agreement that TF bees are first step and critical step. Since I don't intend to breed my own Queen does anyone knows a reliable source of TF Queens, that are commercially available?
What would be the next step after obtaining the bees, going foundationless?


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

a better first step is locate someone in your area (if possible) already doing it. this will let you know that your local environment supports resistant bees, which usually means you have a population of feral colonies surviving in the area.

(if possible) obtain your bees from such an operation and do your best to emulate their practices which are allowing for success there.

(if not possible) catching swarms from, cutting out, or trapping out unmanaged colonies you have verified are overwintering (and not just this year's swarms taking residence in a dead out cavity) is another way to get survivor stock.

the studies on and the experiences reported with regard to cell size and/or the use of foundation or not are somewhat mixed. there are a number of us on the forum having success keeping bees off treatments using the standard sized foundation.

the more important factor in my opinion is whether or not your area has adequate habitat, forage, and is currently supporting feral colonies.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

These guys are all spot on, it can be done starting with commercial stock, but it's ALOT harder and you will experience ALOT more loss. If this is your only route, numbers are your friend. Check out the OTS method of queen rearing. You don't have to use this method specifically but understand why he does it, and why it works. The excessive splitting he does is considered TF compared to the official definition here, but IMO excessive splitting is a treatment because when you stop splitting all colonies every yr some will begin to die. What you want to do is over time and once you have enough colonies to work with, Start letting colonies grow an entire season before splitting, and when those start surviving, start splitting your colonies that make it through their second winter. Then after some time try letting them go 3 yrs before splitting. The goal is to have colonies of various ages and stages so all your eggs aren't in one basket. 3 yrs is the goal we shoot for here because in my opinion that is a sustainable number. They build on yr 1 with possible late honey harvest, become honey producers their second yr and on their 3rd they become breeders and get busted up starting the cycle over again.


If you can start with TF or overwintered feral stock and use the above approach you will be yrs ahead.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

deepster said:


> Since I don't intend to breed my own Queen does anyone knows a reliable source of TF Queens, that are commercially available?


If you can't locate a local, northern source, you might look into Frost Apiaries in Dardanelle, Arkansas.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

deepster said:


> Since I don't intend to breed my own Queen does anyone knows a reliable source of TF Queens, that are commercially available?


sam comfort
kirk webster

might have to wait on a list for a year or two...


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Try to find a local TF in your area, and get genetic stock from them.


This list of beekeepers by town in Connecticut may help: http://www.ct.gov/caes/lib/caes/documents/bee/beekeepers_registered_in_connecticut_in_2016.pdf. You can also look for someone who does cutouts in your area. (Try Jeff Shwartz.) Keeping hives near a forested area with a population of feral bees or near a DCA near someone who maintains a large stock of bees from swarm traps and cutouts may help with long term genetics. 

There are a number of non-genetic factors, including hive configuration, materials, feeding, styles of beekeeping, and many other factors. Also, the genetic factors include not only the bee genetics, but also the genetics of mites, viruses, and potential pests and pathogens and other natural enemies of the varroa mite, and the genetics of other inhabitants of the bioculture within the hive, within the bees, and within the mites.


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## J.Lee (Jan 19, 2014)

Johnny Thompson has V.P. Queens. 1-601-562-0701. I would recommend the Allegro line for longevity. He is treatment free. I would try starter strips before foundationless. Cut down 5.1 crimpwire foundation into strips if you want to go that route. I would get the basics down first though. Hope this helps. Good luck.


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

J.Lee please elaborate little more how I would install the strips. This is interesting I thought small cell size was important part of treatment free. I have gone foundationless in the home of my bees move to smaller cell.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

You cut the wax comb foundation into strips as per the pic, then put into the top bar of your frame as per the other pic, the strip can be glued in using hot melt glue. The comb foundation does not have to be small cell the bees will not base the kind of comb they build on the cell size of the foundation strip.

Use a narrow strip preferably around one cell depth protruding from the top bar. This is so not too many bees can hang on it and cause it to fall out before the bees have attached it onto the wood properly.

Some people use popsicle sticks or wedged bars to try to get the bees to build the comb in the right place, but both those methods can have issues. I sell bees to newbees with no experience and get them to start their foundationless combs like this and there is never a problem, plus the resultant comb looks a whole lot more pleasing than one hanging on a popsicle stick. Only other thing they have to do is have the frames correctly spaced from each other, and have the hive exactly level. And oh, do use wires in your frames the bees build right onto them and they add a lot of strength to your combs.

Should add, I am not treatment free myself so you can take or leave my advice but getting comb started right is much the same treating or not treating.


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## howlin (May 15, 2016)

hi all,
I'm sorry if I offend anyone, not what I'm going for. I guess I just don't really understand what makes TF. my understanding is if you stop treating, you will have treatment free bees. also seems that the whole trend to go TF has created aarket for some to provide TF bees. and to sell small cell foundation. 
why does everyone try to over complicate things. 
my plan...
steps to treatment free. 
1. stop treating
2. no foundation because it probably came from treated bees, and forcing the bee to draw a specific size cell... why? to add stress? because stress is NOT linked to diesease (ya, I typed out sarcasm) let them build what they want. they really are not trying to kill themselves. they want the same as all life on the planet, world domination, and will take w/e steps they feel necessary to accomplish that. if the comb is not going straight, fix it. only have to do that for 2 frames, then you have guides. 
3. no sugar. maybe a small amount if you reduce the pH to a level that will not make the organism susceptible to diesease. humans need to learn this too. and no man-made processed additives mixed in. stay away from chemicals. maybe apple cider vinegar to reduce pH. 
4. when they want to swarm, maybe let them make their own queen, do a split, w/e, you have to remember that life does w/e it can to survive, it won't just roll over and quit. ever seen a fallen tree start growing again? 
5. trust the bees to fix it. 

I know this is pointless and holds no weight due to inexperience, but logic, and life, I have those as a guideline, probably you will lose bees if you take my advice, but those are my plans, and I will keep posting how my TF bees are making on, I am going to treat with powdered sugar or something if I notice varroa problems. 
but I am having great confidence that I will succeed with the above steps. 

can someone point me a link that defines the TF factor, and how not starting by buying TF bees as opposed to not treating and removing any "nuc" frames etc. constitutes non-TF if you let them make a queen and have the bees for over a couple months?

thanks and enjoy your day. 
h.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

I'm sorry if I offend anyone, not what I'm going for. 
>>>nah...

I guess I just don't really understand what makes TF.
>>>correct.

my understanding is if you stop treating, you will have treatment free bees. 
>>>thats the hope. mostly you will have dead bees. then build off the ones that live. if it were easy everybody would do it. do you think anybody WANTS to put pesticides into their hives that they will then be taking honey from?

why does everyone try to over complicate things. 
>>>theres a lot of aspects to consider. at first it appears that you just dump bees in a box. not really.

my plan...I am going to treat with powdered sugar or something if I notice varroa problems. 
>>>that is treating, so you will not be TF. look up 'IPM'

I am having great confidence that I will succeed with the above steps.
>>>and the best is hoped for you. in reality, you will be humbled. you are not the first.

can someone point me a link that defines the TF factor, and how not starting by buying TF bees as opposed to not treating and removing any "nuc" frames etc. constitutes non-TF if you let them make a queen and have the bees for over a couple months?
>>>google, its all there.

nobody trying to be discouraging, just real. small cell, narrow frame, foundation, box size, top/bottom style, etc. dont really have all that much to do with TF. again, lot of aspects and angles of approach.


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

coal reaper, do you also think small cell doesn't improve on TF / fighting ability of bees with Verroa?


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## howlin (May 15, 2016)

@coal reaper ya, i even wrote "treat" before sugar, guess i needed more coffee... lol. well, i hope it works. for everyone.
h.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Happens often LOL. There is a curious facet of human nature where new beekeepers decide how they will manage things. They do not want to TREAT, as TREATING conjures up mental images of horrible toxic poisons being literally poured into hives. But they sometimes decide that they will do little things to _treat_ such as sugar dust, essential oils, or whatever, because if they do it themselves they are just _treating,_ not TREATING.


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

The first step is admitting that there is a higher power than yourself.


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## howlin (May 15, 2016)

@oldtimer ya, they won't be TF then i guess. sugar is bad enough, i don't even want to feed. but i will do candyboards for the winter i'm sure...
but i won't put any lab chems in, including stuff in the sugar that i don't want to feed them. i'm a picky eater, and i won't eat that. remember when DDT was sliced bread?
@betty
what step is admitting there is no "yourself"? 

h.


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

deepster said:


> coal reaper, do you also think small cell doesn't improve on TF / fighting ability of bees with Verroa?


I cannot say. No experience with SC foundation. But there are TF beeks on large cell foundation. I started fiundationless frames three years ago and i can say that i notice bees of slightly different sizes. There is also 5.4 foundation still in my hives. I started messing with narrow foundationless frames this year. Will be another three years if not more before i am ready to comment on that.


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## J.Lee (Jan 19, 2014)

If you are having luck with foundationless great. Some get nice comb that way. I have installed frames set up to run foundationless and the bees ignored the frame even when it violated bee space rules. Guess the bees did not read the same books I did. Sometimes starter strips are a nice compromise and the bees will draw comb alot sooner. Oldtimers post gave you the main points of starter strips. You can also use crimp wire foundation and just cut strips out of them. Just bend the wires and install them like you would foundation. You do not need to be small cell or natural cell to be treatment free. Some just consider it a more natural way to keep bees. I have seen bees draw comb in the wild and the natural cell comb looks alot more like small cell than standard cell size. Alot of the advocates for small cell say that it shortens the life cycle of the worker brood from 21 days to 18 days. If you overlay the life cycle of the varroa mite over that then you see the mite can only raise one daughter usually instead of two or three. At that rate of reproduction the mites will die off at about the same rate that they are born. Then again some say that people who believe that happen to have their apiaries in Africanized Honey Bee territory with an 18 day brood cycle to start with and that is why their bees are surviving varroa. I like natural cell because it seems more, well natural. You will have to decide for yourself in your beekeeping journey if you think its worth it. I have a friend treatment free for seven years using only sceened bottomed boards, Plastic drone frames(which are removed and frozen before the brood emerges) and running Russian bees to start with from the VERY beginning. She uses standard cell. I'm treatment free 5 years running V.P. Queens. (Allegro) and I am working with captured swarms to develop my own stock. I also do splits to break the brood cycle. Usually the bees swarm and do that for me. I am currently regressing to 5.1 cell. It takes a while. Perhaps the term treatment free beekeeping would be better off termed chemical free beekeeping. Oh and you will be raising your own queens. The bees will be doing that for you. Good luck.


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## J.Lee (Jan 19, 2014)

If you are having luck with foundationless great. Some get nice comb that way. I have installed frames set up to run foundationless and the bees ignored the frame even when it violated bee space rules. Guess the bees did not read the same books I did. Sometimes starter strips are a nice compromise and the bees will draw comb alot sooner. Oldtimers post gave you the main points of starter strips. You can also use crimp wire foundation and just cut strips out of them. Just bend the wires and install them like you would foundation. You do not need to be small cell or natural cell to be treatment free. Some just consider it a more natural way to keep bees. I have seen bees draw comb in the wild and the natural cell comb looks alot more like small cell than standard cell size. Alot of the advocates for small cell say that it shortens the life cycle of the worker brood from 21 days to 18 days. If you overlay the life cycle of the varroa mite over that then you see the mite can only raise one daughter usually instead of two or three. At that rate of reproduction the mites will die off at about the same rate that they are born. Then again some say that people who believe that happen to have their apiaries in Africanized Honey Bee territory with an 18 day brood cycle to start with and that is why their bees are surviving varroa. I like natural cell because it seems more, well natural. You will have to decide for yourself in your beekeeping journey if you think its worth it. I have a friend treatment free for seven years using only sceened bottomed boards, Plastic drone frames(which are removed and frozen before the brood emerges) and running Russian bees to start with from the VERY beginning. She uses standard cell. I'm treatment free 5 years running V.P. Queens. (Allegro) and I am working with captured swarms to develop my own stock. I also do splits to break the brood cycle. Usually the bees swarm and do that for me. I am currently regressing to 5.1 cell. It takes a while. Perhaps the term treatment free beekeeping would be better off termed chemical free beekeeping. Oh and you will be raising your own queens. The bees will be doing that for you. Good luck.


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## AR Beekeeper (Sep 25, 2008)

My experience with 20 colonies on small cell for 3 years is there is no benefit in using it. The varroa mites grow to numbers equal to or exceeding the colonies that are on standard cell foundation.

Try it for yourself, take 2 shook swarms, place one on small cell and the other on standard cell foundation. Treat the colonies the same, when you feed one, feed the other, when you put in a frame with foundation to be drawn, put one in the other. Do no varroa mite controls, but do drop counts and see how the varroa populations grow, and at the end of the second year treat both with MAQ2 and count the number of mites killed. Compare productivity, see how the queens do on the small cell and on the standard cells and decide if it works.


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

@J.lee I think you could turn out very correct about rising my own queens. 
I went to see this one guy who is willing to sell me TF nucs but insists that I have to split and let them raise their own queen! It sounds like breaking the brood cycle is the key for them to stay ahead of Verroa! One issue concerns me, what if my own bees’ drone are the only bees around, wouldn’t that be inbreeding!? How do you guys deal with this issue?


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

In my humble opinion, learning to make your own splits and having bees raise their own queens is an essential beekeeping skill. Depending on somebody else to supply bees when there is failure is not TF. Doesn't mean you never bring in new genetic material, but most of your queens should be your own. If everyone did this, it would lead to regionally adapted, genetically diverse bees that can be leaned on in times of trouble. At the same time transfer of disease/pests from region to region would be slowed down. 

Steps to TF? Create backup, build on success not failure. If small scale find others with similar goals to connect and cooperate with.


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

Way to go Iharder, Some one put down the second and possibly third steps to TF. so far we have:

1- Get me local Treatment free bees as best as I can.
2- As they get bigger make splits and let them raise their own queen.
3- Raise Nuc for backup.

Have I got his correct so far every one agrees? 
Ok, back to my previous question, how about limited genetics around me when they raise their own queen? Do I worry about this if the raised queen becomes a non performer, Which is too late? How you guys handle this?


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

deepster said:


> One issue concerns me, what if my own bees’ drone are the only bees around, wouldn’t that be inbreeding!?


If you don't already have bees, put out some 1:1 sugar syrup with a couple of drops of anise oil and see if there are bees in the area. If you already have bees, go two or three miles away with the syrup and see if bees come. Also, ask your friends or a local pest control company if there are honey bees in your area. Or ask a local beekeeper from the list of CT beekeepers above, or ask your county agent. Or try and see what happens. I would be surprised if there is not a drone congregation area near you.


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## lharder (Mar 21, 2015)

Here is where it gets complicated and is context specific.

Some advocate isolated mating situations. This is useful if you are surrounded by bees that are treated and not much in the way of feral bees. 

If you have a solid base of feral bees (difficult to determine but eventually some conclusions can be arrived at), then you want to tap into this and you will want to mate locally and there will be no problem with inbreeding. Generally inbreeding is not a problem as there are almost always be bees around. 

My own developing plan is to have a bit of both. I will have a local open mated situation. (This and last year out of necessity) The benefits of this is that there is an infusion of new genetics/traits that may be useful, not just in terms of survival, but production and overwintering. The downside is that it dilutes survivor genes if most bees around you are treated. You will have likely have higher mortality in this case. Another benefit is that your survivor drones get to mix with treated bees, and perhaps you can have a positive effect on the local pool which will help your own survival down the road. Another way is to start selling nucs from survivor stock locally so it becomes more widespread. 

Next year I will be going into the mountains to get some wild flower nectar in July and August. In this case, an isolated mating is possible and I will be having a few queens mated here and comparing the open and isolated mating groups in terms of survival.


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

Thank you everyone so far with your inputs. I need to pin down and make decision on one more step. I am supposed to get two nucs of bees that are claimed to be from TF background. Once I have them installed and they are doing well, do I check on their mite count or do I tell them they are TF bees and like it or not deal with it on your own, there is nothing I am supposed to do. How you TF guys did approached this situation?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

deepster said:


> Thank you everyone so far with your inputs. I need to pin down and make decision on one more step. I am supposed to get two nucs of bees that are claimed to be from TF background. Once I have them installed and they are doing well, do I check on their mite count or do I tell them they are TF bees and like it or not deal with it on your own, there is nothing I am supposed to do. How you TF guys did approached this situation?


I don't do counts, To me it's an arbitrary number anyways, do you plan to treat if they reach some threshold? If so what is YOUR threshold? Or, would you plan to use someone elses threshold that is meaningless to your bees? I have done a few mite counts but I don't anymore because A I wasn't treating no matter what the count was, and B, some were dwindling at 3-4 mites per 100, and others were thriving at 7-9 mites per 100 bees. The fact of the matter is, I don't care what kills my bees so long as it isn't AFB I focus on the ones that survive.


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

and what if it is AFB?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

American Foul Brood, in my state if it's found you have to kill the bees and burn the hive.


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## beepro (Dec 31, 2012)

I have read a beekeeper on intention infected his grafts with the AFB.
Some queen made it and became resistant to this disease. Thanks to this
old timer that we have a strategy to deal with it rather than fearing it.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

beepro said:


> I have read a beekeeper on intention infected his grafts with the AFB.
> Some queen made it and became resistant to this disease. Thanks to this
> old timer that we have a strategy to deal with it rather than fearing it.


I think this is very bad advice in connection with American Foul Brood! Being callous instead of cautious about AFB is not to be admired. Some oldtimers also recommended using leeches for human ailments!


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## COAL REAPER (Jun 24, 2014)

Harley Craig said:


> I don't do counts, To me it's an arbitrary number anyways, do you plan to treat if they reach some threshold? If so what is YOUR threshold? Or, would you plan to use someone elses threshold that is meaningless to your bees? I have done a few mite counts but I don't anymore because A I wasn't treating no matter what the count was, and B, some were dwindling at 3-4 mites per 100, and others were thriving at 7-9 mites per 100 bees. The fact of the matter is, I don't care what kills my bees so long as it isn't AFB I focus on the ones that survive.


well put. i used to be worried when i saw shells of mites on bottom boards. my bees rip them up. these are the colonies that do best for me. once you are able to stop worrying about everything, beekeeping becomes a lot more enjoyable.


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

so There is no in between as far as mites or TF gos. One has to stand back and let the bees take care of it or else. It is not as if you initially give them a helping hand with some foreign substance, till they figure it out?
Is it fare to say that those bees and colonies whom are able to coexist with the mite keep the count low. If mite count gets to as high as 7 to 8% or higher the end for the colony is near?


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

My experience is that management in TF just has to be different

The bees I have that survive best shut down brood rearing during dearths.

And any management I do that stimulates brood rearing is ultimately counter productive to long term survival. 

Dee/Michael's management philosophy works for me here


Don



6 yr, 25 H, SC/foundationless, have never bought bees or even a queen


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

deepster said:


> If mite count gets to as high as 7 to 8% or higher the end for the colony is near?


not necessarily.



squarepeg said:


> i've haven't done anything for mites since starting in 2010. early on i thought about identifying colonies with high mite counts, killing the queen, killing the mites, and requeening from better stock. since winter losses were averaging less than 20% i didn't get motivated to do that, deciding instead to give the bees a chance while drawing the line at not allowing dwindling to the point of an inevitable rob out. losses became easy to make up by catching swarms and making splits.
> 
> the first mite count i took was in 2013 and on a dwindled hive that was probably on the verge of getting robbed as it was down to a very small population of bees with just a little sick brood but still queenright. the infestation rate on that one was near 100%. i took it away from the yard and shook it out but determined afterward that it would have been better to have put in the freezer and done away with those colony collapsing mites.
> 
> ...


mite counts in 2015 were a little less but similar. for 2016, winter survival was better and production is likely to surpass 2015 as there are many more supers full of honey ready for harvest.


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

D Semple Give us more detail about the differences in management, I understand that bees which do well against Verroa have shout down on their brood rearing, higher tendency to swarm etc. but this is really the bees! Where have you seen Dee/Michael's management philosophy in this regards? I would like to read it. thanks


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## aunt betty (May 4, 2015)

If "treatment free children" existed and went to "treatment free" public schools we'd have a whole lot of head lice in our world. 
I'm betting mothers would shave their kids bald and call that TF.


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

If your kids were going to be treatment free, you might teach them to use a louse comb to keep the lice out of their hair. Similarly, bees can be bred to chew on varroa mites which kills the mites dead. Which would you rather do? Put chemicals in the hive to do the job? or get bees that know how to chew on mites?


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## J.Lee (Jan 19, 2014)

You might want to try reading Ross Conrad's Natural Beekeeping Organic Approaches To Modern Apiculture. Hope this helps.


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## J.Lee (Jan 19, 2014)

Dee Lusby and her husband are big advocates of smallcell beekeeping. Google or youtube and you can find her. Michael Bush has over 50 thousand posts on beesource I think and he wrote a book you will probably want to read called The Practical Beekeeper. It is in three volumes. You can find most of it online. Hope this answered your question.


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## D Semple (Jun 18, 2010)

deepster said:


> D Semple Give us more detail about the differences in management, *I understand that bees which do well against Verroa have shout down on their brood rearing, higher tendency to swarm etc. but this is really the bees! *Where have you seen Dee/Michael's management philosophy in this regards? I would like to read it. thanks


Let me preface by saying that I have the luxury to be TF because I'm a sideliner / hobbyist, If I counted on my bees for my living I would treat and have no agenda to convince others to be TF.


To your questions and list:

Know your bees enemy, Varroa is the terrible predator that has to be overcome or limited somehow, someway, period.

I choose like others to try and let the bees handle it. And, I believe the answer comes to down both genetics and bee behavior.

So here's what I would add to your list:

Local TF survivors. 

Breed from those survivors

Don't disrupt the bees behavior, colonies go through cycles during the year naturally adjusting their numbers, age distribution, reproductive timing, etc., etc., all to match their local environment. And, the colonies do different things and deal with different issues at different times of the year.

SC / Foundationless - because it's closer to what they build on their own and the interior makeup of hive affects communication, where they raise brood and store honey and pollen, what drone levels they have, when and if they swarm, all sorts of things. 

No queen excluder for many of the same reasons.

Don't feed (except in late fall if you have to), because it stimulates brood rearing and Varroa on a level playing field will out breed the bees. And maybe it's because feeding changes the age structure of a colony and the timing of what the bees are concentrating their focus on. If food is coming in they are in a completely different mode then when it's not. (Ask Dee about the Fall brood turnover)

Minimum of 10 hives, you have to have enough survivors to breed from.

Isolation or a buffer zone so you are a good neighbor to other beekeepers who do treat.

No more then 6 to 8 hives per bee yard (to much pressure during dearths)


More things to add but I've got to get back to work, so that's it for now. 


Good Thread, always like reading what Fusion Power, Square Peg, Old Timer and many others think. Thx


Don


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

Fusion_power said:


> If your kids were going to be treatment free, you might teach them to use a louse comb to keep the lice out of their hair.


I actually do have a "TF" kid because she is on chemo once a week that suppresses her immune system so she can not take most vaccinations and is unable to take her kindergarten " treatments" for next yr. Hygiene is something we really drive home with her.


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## deepster (Apr 14, 2016)

Great job everyone especially Don; my list is getting big now. This was the best effort form a single member as of yet. If anyone disagrees with any item please let me know, I would like to compile my list with consensus. It will take me a while to digest all this and list them.
In the absent of queen excluder, would there not be too much brood in the honey suppers?! is this not undesirable?
dp


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