# Frames w/ foundation vs. empty frames



## Steven Tervort (Feb 16, 2012)

The problem starting with empty frames is dealing with getting the bees to draw the comb straight and center. A lot of problems can be avoided by using foundation in the beginning; even though it can be done without it. Once you have the drawn comb it is easy to place empty frames between drawn comb to get more straight comb. It all depends on how much you want to deal with. You really have to watch the hive if you decide to go "commando".


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## Tom B (May 11, 2011)

I would suggest that you start with foundation in your frames, and then insert a few foundation-less frames between drawn frames as the season progresses. Bees may decide that the foundationless frames are a great place to create a bunch of drone comb, so keep them high in the hive and insert them only when a good honey flow is on.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

I had one frame I put in hive without foundation. with the frame sandwiched between drawn comb the bees seemed to do just fine. I woudl not want to try it with a box full of empty frames though.

I used a lot of wax foundation this past year with mixed results. I will be trying plastic foundation for the first time this spring. I removed the one foundation less frame from the hive and now have it in my shed. Hard to find a place to keep it safe but I have if if needed. watching to see if anything like moths mess with it.


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I have hives that have both. They seem to do fine as long as you sandwich the frames between foundation and foundationless frames. For honey extraction purposes the honey supers have all plastic foundation.


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## JoshC1021 (Dec 17, 2012)

Ok, so I'm going for frames with plastic. I saw a video on youtube and the installation process seems straightforward enough but when the plastic foundation is place, he inserts a pin to hold it wouldn't that cover a couple of cells?


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## MaydayMalone (Jan 19, 2012)

If you are a beginner, I would recommend grooved top and bottom frames with Duragilt foundation. Duragilt is beeswax coated plastic. The foundation is lined on the outer edges with a metal reinforcement eliminating the need for pins or wire. It's very easy to install. I will be inserting a few empty frames in 2013 as well. As far as extracting honey, it will be much easier for you if you use a foundation. Frames without foundation normally are limited to pressing or squashing to remove honey. I will use the foundationless frames for cut-comb honey.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>If you are a beginner, I would recommend grooved top and bottom frames with Duragilt foundation. Duragilt is beeswax coated plastic.

There have been many posts on Beesource over the years expressing dissatisfaction with Duragilt. Do a search on the topic before you use it.


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## JClark (Apr 29, 2012)

I started out on all foundationless and never had an issue. I just made 1 inch starter strips out of the foundation that came w/ the hive and glued it into the grooved top bars w/ beeswax. I did spend a good bit of time ensuring the hive was exactly level though. 

Started w/ warre hives (2) then a lang w/ a swarm last year and have never had a crooked frame yet. I think the key is level boxes and good straight starter strips. I do use foundation now when I add a super (w/out foundation they probably would make a mess out of it as they would build up from the bottoms of the frames).

I am starting to use foundation more as the bees seem to start the process of drawing it out faster than foundationless--despite what I had read elsewhere. I do prefer foundationless in the brood nest so the bees, themselves, decide on cell size.

If I were starting from scratch I would alternate foundation and foundationless frames when I first hived the colony. You still need to ensure the hive is level or you will still have issues.


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## JoshC1021 (Dec 17, 2012)

can the Duragilt foundations be re-used after extraction?


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

A beginner as mentioned can do foundationless, just like a beginner can figure out how to use foundation. They are simply different ways of getting to the same place. Both have their unique management tweeks and work involved. Here is a video I created on foundationless frames.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38SPvuWvVkc


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## MaydayMalone (Jan 19, 2012)

JoshC1021 said:


> can the Duragilt foundations be re-used after extraction?


Yes.


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## JoshC1021 (Dec 17, 2012)

So I guess I'm going for the duragilt because they seem fine to me. I saw the video on Brushy Mountain Bee Farm's website about assembling the frame with duragilt already attached. How do I go about that? Do I glue it to one side or something?


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## MaydayMalone (Jan 19, 2012)

JoshC1021 said:


> So I guess I'm going for the duragilt because they seem fine to me. I saw the video on Brushy Mountain Bee Farm's website about assembling the frame with duragilt already attached. How do I go about that? Do I glue it to one side or something?


No glue needed. Assemble frames as you normally would. Duragilt is then inserted into bottom groove then slid into top groove. Do not bend the metal reinforcing on the ends. Let it "float" in the grooves. On your deep frames, make sure the communication ports on the Duragilt are on the bottom. These comm ports are not on the med and shallow foundation. The bees will put propolis to tighten and keep them from sliding in the grooves. I did a search on Duragilt here on this site as another poster suggested that I do. I only saw one thread where there was dissatisfaction with Duragilt. 

If your duragilt loses the beeswax coating, you can reapply it yourself with your melted, strained cappings.


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>I did a search on Duragilt here on this site as another poster suggested that I do. I only saw one thread where there was dissatisfaction with Duragilt. If your duragilt loses the beeswax coating, you can reapply it yourself with your melted, strained cappings. 

I did the search before I made the comment and found many I had seen over the years. These ae just from one thread.

"I just find it overly sensitive. It's easy to get a wave in it when assembling and hard to straighten out too. As others have noted wax very easily flakes off base Mylar like plastic."
"I despise it."
"I refer to it as Duracrap!"
"I used it in my honey supers and when the weather turned hot the foundation warped and pulled out of the grooves."
"When flool proof stuff is made, I guess bigger fools will arise. "
"Oh they'll touch it alright...and make beautiful drone and burr comb "
"Is it as bad as other beekeepers say it is?Indeed it is "
"I prefer not to use it. I bought out a beekeeper who had retired and he had several boxes of it. It goes in fast, but best with grooved bottom bars instead of divided bottom bars. The wedge cleat won't always hold it in and it often falls down to the next hive body. Also, as some of this duragilt was older, some had dried out and flaked off the plastic base. Bees will absolutely REFUSE to touch the plastic. You'll get odd shaped frames and extra wax built from adjacent frames. In my opinion, there are much better options."


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

>If your duragilt loses the beeswax coating, you can reapply it yourself with your melted, strained cappings.
By strained cappings maybe you mean melted beeswax.
One problem with Duragilt is that the bees eat the wax off of it. IT has no cell layout on the plastic, so re-coating it will not give the bees a guide. I have 42 years experience with Duragilt, if it has even been available that long. I think it has. I have thrown away a lot of bald Duragilt frames that came from other beekeepers. You also lose a lot of cells on the edges to that metal band.


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

A given beginnng beekeeper will find a way to have trouble with any foundation. I had every problem above until I learned how to install it and how to get the bees to draw it.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

MaydayMalone said:


> If you are a beginner, I would recommend grooved top and bottom frames with Duragilt foundation.


No offense, but Duragilt is the absolute worst foundation that I've ever used. I highly recommend looking at other foundations.


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## rweakley (Jul 2, 2004)

odfrank said:


> >If your duragilt loses the beeswax coating, you can reapply it yourself with your melted, strained cappings.
> By strained cappings maybe you mean melted beeswax.
> One problem with Duragilt is that the bees eat the wax off of it. IT has no cell layout on the plastic, so re-coating it will not give the bees a guide. I have 42 years experience with Duragilt, if it has even been available that long. I think it has. I have thrown away a lot of bald Duragilt frames that came from other beekeepers. You also lose a lot of cells on the edges to that metal band.




You know how these youngsters are these days ODfrank they have to learn it all the hard way. LOL


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I like the plastic foundation with wax coating from Mann Lake.


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## allniter (Aug 22, 2011)

odfrank--with many years in the hive what do you use for foundation


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

I'm too fat to fit in a hive....
I use frames with grooved top and bottom bars, horizontally wired with vertical wired foundation. I have some foundationless frames interspersed in my honey supers for cut comb. I do not use plastic frames or foundation but see that bees are accepting some of the more recent ones on the market. I am in an area with a long slow flow which makes for poorly drawn plastic foundation. I have been using a stock-pile of 30 year old foundation which precedes toxic mite pesticides. I am not to concerned about contamination in new foundation as I doubt damaging amounts survive the temperatures of melting wax. Me and my bees are probably exposed to much more worrisome pesticides in our daily lives than is probably in foundation. 
This summer I am going to venture into Warre hives for a client.


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## JoshC1021 (Dec 17, 2012)

Could anyone suggest me anything from Mann Lake Ltd? http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/page16.html

Mr. Beeman, I couldn't find what you mentioned.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

JoshC1021 said:


> Mr. Beeman, I couldn't find what you mentioned.


See page 21, towards the bottom, "Duragilt":

http://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping-supplies/page21.html


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## JoshC1021 (Dec 17, 2012)

Isn't it that duragilt has bad reviews from beekeepers?


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

Duragilt. NOOOOOOOO


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

JoshC1021 said:


> Isn't it that duragilt has bad reviews from beekeepers?


I found a lot of negative comments. I also found a fair number that where not. Every product will have negative reviews. So it depends on what you consider bad reviews. It has it's negatives. One that no comb is embossed on it. This would lend toward those that want the bees to determine cell size. sounds like they need a way to get the bees to build on it if the wax coating comes off and to improve it's ability to be extracted. Of course I am not sure why you would extract brood comb and that seems to me to be it's strong point. natural cell size on plastic foundation looks to be the angle to me.

Keep in mind that it has been around a long time. that in itself is something of a review of it's own. It could be that it is a tool and when properly used it works well. when you use a screwdriver as a pry bar. don't complain when it gets damaged.


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## Keth Comollo (Nov 4, 2011)

> It has it's negatives. One that no comb is embossed on it.


Yes, it has comb embossed on it.


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## MattDavey (Dec 16, 2011)

JoshC1021 said:


> I wanted to know the advantages & disadvantages of frames with foundation versus the empty frames where the bees would fill it with their own...


Foundation: can be ignored, even in the brood nest.
Foundationless: won't be ignored if placed in or beside the brood nest.

I have often used a short strip of foundation along the top of the frame. You can cut the foundation into four strips. It sets a good guide for them to draw out the rest of the frame. Also allows them to build the amount drone cells at the bottom that they are happy with. (So no need for an excluder.)

Best of both worlds.

Also makes the foundation go a lot further, 4 x more frames!

Matthew Davey


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## JoshC1021 (Dec 17, 2012)

would an all plastic frame work fine? Do I need to have a layer of wax on it?


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Empty frames will not work. Frames with comb guides and no foundation will work. Frames with foundation will work.

http://bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Keth Comollo said:


> Duragilt. NOOOOOOOO


I bought a few hundred unassembled medium boxes and frames this fall that a gentleman had stored in his garage for years. He also had Duragilt to go with the frames. I told him I wasnt really interested in buying the Duragilt. Before I left he said "hey, how about I just give you the Duragilt". I thought for a moment and then said "I don't want to offend you but I would probably just throw it away, if you want me to get rid of it for you I will take it otherwise no thanks" I dont know what he decided to do with it.


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Please do yourself a favor, and use Mann Lakes RiteCell plastic foundation. I love it, and I have tried all the other types of all the foundations, and RiteCell always comes out ahead, in my opinion.


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## JoshC1021 (Dec 17, 2012)

Should I get the ones with a coating of wax or not? Plus there's the task of assembling it with the frame, how do I go about that?


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## westernbeekeeper (May 2, 2012)

Yes, get the wax-coated RiteCell. Assembled the frames without the foundation, and the pop it into the frame by placing it in the top bar groove and then flex the other edge in.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

Changed my mind


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## xcugat (Mar 4, 2008)

Duraguilt is wretched--it is from a time before they had plastic embossed foundation, and so now is obsolete. The only reason it is still made is because beekeepers are a stubborn lot, and some that started with it continue to use it because of tradition more than anything else (or fear to try a new product!)


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## Gypsi (Mar 27, 2011)

I use wax-coated Plasticell frames from Dadant. If you ever have to clean up a wooden frame with plastic foundation in it after a wax moth catastrophe you will understand why.

And I use foundationless frames - plain wooden frame, 4 strings of 20 lb test fishing line run horizontally across. When I load a 10 frame box I put in 8 plasticell, 2 foundationless. Gradually building up a stock of foundationless comb. 

If it will stand up to Texas heat, and it did, in a near-record summer, I'm happy. Gradually I hope to use less plasticell and more bee-drawn comb, but my bees are drawing everything out.

Thinking about a Warre or Top Bar for fun, but probably better deal with the goat first.

Gypsi


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