# Beeswax embossing machine, problem with rollers



## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

Hi

This is my first post, I have been learning from this forum for some time without being part of it and today I would like to raise a question for which I have not found information in the forum.

We have a machine for laminating and stamping wax by means of rollers (I do not have photos right now but the mode of operation is similar to this: Electric beeswax foundation machine), it is a machine already used and the smooth rollers for laminating are not in good condition. The case is that it is impossible to work with it because the wax adheres to the roller (despite using soap and water), we believe that it is because the rollers could lose the coating that brought from the factory, and this is where I wanted to launch the query, anyone knows what kind of coating is usually used? (maybe chrome plating?)

Thank you very much to anyone who can provide any information

(Sorry if there is any error in the text, I am not a native English speaker)


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Try polishing the smooth rollers to a mirror finish, and build a cheap soapy water drip system.

Crazy Roland


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## elmer_fud (Apr 21, 2018)

any chance there is a build of of wax on the surface of rollers that is causing the wax to stick? I would try cleaning everything really well and see if that helps.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Your question leads me to wonder if you are "laminating" the wax sheets between two sheets of tissue paper? 

I've never had them stick to the smooth rollers. The paper stays on through the embossing rollers, and is stacked in the boxes for later installation into the frames. We peel both papers off before rolling the frame wires into the foundation sheets with the spur wheel embedder and heating the wires to secure the wax a bit better.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Also - the adjustment of the distance between the smooth rollers is critical, as are wax temperature and room temperature. It rolls best when everything is right. Also try to clean and lube the rollers' bearings - they have to spin freely.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Oh, and by the way, Welcome to Beesource! Good to have you aboard. I what part of Spain are you keeping your bees?

Bienveudos a Beesource! Que bueno que estas con nosotros. Donde en Espana esta usted cuidando sus abejas?


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Nos podemos las hojas de cera adentro dos hojas de papel muy delgada, poquito mas gueso que papel del comun. Este papel esta con la cera primer en los pasos de las llantas lisas, despues en los pasos para embosar la textura hexagonal, y despues eso, nos podemos en carton esperando poner en los quadrados de panal.

Nos qitamos los dos papeles de cada hoja de cera antes de poniendo en los cuadrados con alambres. Nos empujamsos las alambres en la cera con llanta como estrella de botes de gaucho, y muchos usan un corriente electrico para calor de las alambres, segurar los juntos de alambre a cera mas duro.

Favor perdoname para mi Espanol como ******


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Tambien - la distancia adentro las llantas lisas is muy importante, como la temperatura de cera y temperatura de su taller. Se anda bien cuando todo anda correctamente.


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

@Roland, the machine is already equipped with a water cooling system. Regarding polishing the rollers, that's something I'll definitely try, thanks.

@elmer_fud, I made sure the rollers were clean but it didn't work out anyway, thanks.

@kilocharlie, thank you very much for your welcome and suggestions. I am from the north of Spain, we have a small beekeeping farm in Galicia, more for hobby than business. Regarding the tissue paper sheets I understand that it is for other type of machines, in these theoretically it is not necessary.
Regarding the temperature, the colder the rollers are the better so that the wax does not adhere, something I will also try to do is to try that the water of the cooling system is as cold as possible. Regarding the distance of the rollers, I have tried several configurations but I have not noticed much improvement.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

There is a video in one of the older threads here on Beesource of beekeepers processing wax into foundation sheets. I'll try to find the link.


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

kilocharlie said:


> There is a video in one of the older threads here on Beesource of beekeepers processing wax into foundation sheets. I'll try to find the link.


I have seen some videos in Spanish (in English I have not found too much information, perhaps because these machines are called in some way that I do not know in the beekeeping jargon) even with manual machines and the wax does not adhere practically to the rollers, it is also true that I am using pure wax and perhaps in the videos commercial waxes are used that include paraffin.

This weekend I am going to polish the smooth rollers and try to make the rollers as cold as possible and see if there is any improvement.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

We call the machine a *foundation wax mill*. We call the process* rendering beeswax*.


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

kilocharlie said:


> We call the machine a *foundation wax mill*. We call the process* rendering beeswax*.


Thanks for the clarification


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

Finally, I polished the smooth rollers a little and cleaned the stamping rollers. The result is that I notice an improvement in the lamination, but the problem is now in the embossing, the wax adheres brutally to the roller.
I add the image of the machine that I did not have when I opened the post.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Please, take a guess at what temperature the wax is when it enters the embossing rollers. , what temperature the rollers are, and the temperature of the room..

Crazy Roland


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

What is the quality of the finish of the pattern embossing surfaces. Are the sides of protrusions and indentations micro smooth and tapered directionally for release of the imprinted wax. If the wax has to be stretched or squirm as it parts from the rollers, sticking will be a problem that is hard to fix. Someone with metal die casting experience could tell at a glance is this is part of your problem.


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

Roland said:


> Please, take a guess at what temperature the wax is when it enters the embossing rollers. , what temperature the rollers are, and the temperature of the room..
> 
> Crazy Roland


At the time I performed the tests the temperature of the room would be about 18º. I do not have the specific temperature of the rollers and the wax but I tested with wax at room temperature and wax previously immersed in water at about 30º, what is observed is that at lower temperatures the wax is more brittle but adheres less to the rollers and vice versa when it is warmer. As for the rollers, what I have noticed a clear improvement has been to put ice in the cooling water, in this way I could get a continuous strip of wax stamped which has allowed me to realize that a problem may be that the rollers are not perfectly aligned as the vertex of the hexagon of the lower face should coincide with the center of the hexagon of the upper face:

On the left the stamped wax, on the right a commercial wax


















It has also struck me that the distance between the rollers is so small with the set screws completely loosened:











I wonder if this is normal or if the "leveling pads" have given way.


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

crofter said:


> What is the quality of the finish of the pattern embossing surfaces. Are the sides of protrusions and indentations micro smooth and tapered directionally for release of the imprinted wax. If the wax has to be stretched or squirm as it parts from the rollers, sticking will be a problem that is hard to fix. Someone with metal die casting experience could tell at a glance is this is part of your problem.


Thanks for your input, I think the rollers are formed by a steel core to which some kind of ductile alloy (maybe some tin alloy) was added as a coating on which the hexagonal pattern was stamped. The stamping rollers are not perfect but judging by some that I have seen on the web they should work, but I do not know it is the first time I come in contact with a machine of this type and the wax stamping process.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The granularity of surface finish is one factor and the angle of departure is the other main one. The more tapering of the sides of the depressions and of the sides of the male bumps, the less is the importance of surface finish. You may be doing nothing wrong.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

Looks like your rollers are out of time.

Notice how on the commercial wax the three cell walls come together in the bottom center of the cell on the other side. The stamped wax is offset.

Are you rolling out the wax sheet (before stamping) thin enough? or are the stamping rollers having to actually thin it down further rather than just making the hex pattern.


Just my arm chair engineering.


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

G3farms said:


> Looks like your rollers are out of time.
> 
> Notice how on the commercial wax the three cell walls come together in the bottom center of the cell on the other side. The stamped wax is offset.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your comment. Yes they are not perfectly aligned, the upper roller has multiple screws to adjust the position of the same, the problem is that the only way that has occurred to me for the moment to check the alignment is precisely to see the result in the stamped wax, the problem is that as it adheres to the rollers complicates the matter.

The stamping machine in this case should only stamp the hexagonal pattern, the wax is previously laminated on the smooth rollers.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

G3farms said:


> Looks like your rollers are out of time.
> 
> Notice how on the commercial wax the three cell walls come together in the bottom center of the cell on the other side. The stamped wax is offset.
> 
> ...


Yes, rollers will have to be timed correctly, rotationally as well as lengthwise to each other.

The amount of squeeze should be just enough to extrude the wax that will form the vertical portion of the cell wall. Thickness of your plain input strip has to be correct for the amount of mesh spacing between top and bottom rollers.

Check the timing for correct first, then experiment with the degree of mesh. Mesh or squeeze has two related controlling factors -- thickness of the material going in, and space between rollers.


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

crofter said:


> Yes, rollers will have to be timed correctly, rotationally as well as lengthwise to each other.
> 
> The amount of squeeze should be just enough to extrude the wax that will form the vertical portion of the cell wall. Thickness of your plain input strip has to be correct for the amount of mesh spacing between top and bottom rollers.
> 
> Check the timing for correct first, then experiment with the degree of mesh. Mesh or squeeze has two related controlling factors -- thickness of the material going in, and space between rollers.


The problem with the tightening is as I mentioned above that with the adjustment screw completely loosened, i.e. the minimum stamping pressure corresponding to the weight of the roller, the wax still sticks. What I was thinking is that if there is a misalignment in the position of the upper roller with respect to the lower, not being perfectly aligned male and female still creates an excess of pressure that sticks the wax, is the only thing I can think of at the moment, except for a problem with the surface finish of the roller


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Did you check and correct the timing both rotation and lengthwise? First move first! next go to the degree of mesh. Check with a postage stamp size or smaller piece of the plain strip.


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

crofter said:


> Did you check and correct the timing both rotation and lengthwise? First move first! next go to the degree of mesh. Check with a postage stamp size or smaller piece of the plain strip.


A clarification to know if we are talking about the same thing, with rotational Timing you mean that the upper roller has a predefined position with respect to the lower one, i.e. rotate for example one tooth the upper roller with respect to the lower one, clarify that both rollers rotate together by means of gears of the same size. I say this because judging by the wax of the photo it did not seem to me that they were out of phase in that sense


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

if they rollers are out of Phase then the wax is being crushed on the small side of the Hex. likely sticking there.

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

There should be a method to adjust the rotation of one of the rollers a small amount. It is not a matter of being a whole tooth out. The projections on one roller have to be precisely centered in the depressions of the other roller as they mesh. This centering must be correct fore and aft as well as side to side. Probably a tolerance of only a tenth of a mm. for optimum. 

Best to start with the assumption that it was not correct as received. GG post above just came in as I type. He is absolutely correct!


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> if they rollers are out of Phase then the wax is being crushed on the small side of the Hex. likely sticking there.
> 
> GG


I also have a similar idea


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Follow the phasing suggestions above. 

As for the amount a squeeze, If you measure the width of a sheet of wax, say 10 units, and after you emboss it, it is 11 units, you have a problem. If it stays 10 units, all is good.

another clue would be to check the weight of 10 sheets of commercial foundation, and then 10 sheets of yours and compare.

Crazy Roland


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

Just another thought...............try running your wax strip the other way through the stamping rollers.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

On one of the gears there should be an adjustment screw(s).
The actual gear should be independent of the roller,
By turning this adjustment screw it will move the roller independently of the gear. That will let the roller be timed or phased, by just minute degrees.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

If you look at the commercial wax, look in the bottom of the cells, the three cell walls on the other side all come together in the center.
Look at your wax and you will see the three cell walls come together closer to the top and a little to the right, not the center. 
Also looks like it is making a hole in the wax, that pic is a little out of focus to me.
This could be your pinch point causing it to stick.


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

G3farms said:


> On one of the gears there should be an adjustment screw(s).
> The actual gear should be independent of the roller,
> By turning this adjustment screw it will move the roller independently of the gear. That will let the roller be timed or phased, by just minute degrees.
> 
> View attachment 67512


Yes, but in this machine is the gear clamping screws fit into the groove that has on the shaft, so I was saying that a misalignment in that sense should be corrected by advancing a tooth for example, although it seems more a longitudinal and radial misalignment, tomorrow I will do some tests.


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

G3farms said:


> If you look at the commercial wax, look in the bottom of the cells, the three cell walls on the other side all come together in the center.
> Look at your wax and you will see the three cell walls come together closer to the top and a little to the right, not the center.
> Also looks like it is making a hole in the wax, that pic is a little out of focus to me.
> This could be your pinch point causing it to stick.


 
Totally, correcting it seems simple but when the wax sticks it becomes more complicated
.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

G3Farms and GG ;

It does not appear that those gears have the micro adjust for rotation. Appears no keys only set screws. Dont know how tight they might be on the shaft but that could be the only way to move radial timing. No guess as to how lengthwise positioning might be established.

Manu, can you get us some more pics of the other end of the shafts and if you can, a side view of the gears and frame and also similar view of other end of the rollers and bearings. We might be able to get more of an idea what would be involved to make changes in meshing if indeed that is the problem.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

With that set up you do not have any "fine" adjustment, at least not easily.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

G3farms said:


> With that set up you do not have any "fine" adjustment, at least not easily.


Agreed, but it must be achieveable by some method. I have more experience on square balers and injector pumps than foundation embossers. There has to be a way!


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

HA, you sound like me, I can fix it til it is tore up even more than it was before.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

How To Use Beeswax Foundation Roller (Manual Foundation Roller) | Make your own wax foundation with this high quality beeswax foundation roller. | By Honest Bee | Facebook


199 views, 3 likes, 0 loves, 4 comments, 0 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Honest Bee: Make your own wax foundation with this high quality beeswax foundation roller.




www.facebook.com





If this link works it shows a split hub gear that clamps to the shaft to allow fine rotation location. Another one had threaded collars that allowed the roller to be moved in rotation or lengthwise. If Manu can get some more pics we all might get a better notion of what is going on. Hopefully the geometry and finish of the surface on the rollers is of good quality..

The rotation adjusting gear hub is on the viewers Left Hand side.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

crofter said:


> Agreed, but it must be achieveable by some method. I have more experience on square balers and injector pumps than foundation embossers. There has to be a way!


it is possible the gear tooth is a factor of the sell size where each tooth is say 1.1 cells and there is a tooth position that is "just right"
odd way to make it, not impossible, just improbable.

length shift maybe,, loosen the set screw pull the gear out or in 1/6 of a cell size like .9 mm (assuming 5.4 mm cells, a 1/3 of a 1/2 of a cell is plenty to try for the first move.

Any way to contact the previous owner or maker of the unit to inquire about fine tuning?

GG


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> it is possible the gear tooth is a factor of the sell size where each tooth is say 1.1 cells and there is a tooth position that is "just right"
> odd way to make it, not impossible, just improbable.
> 
> length shift maybe,, loosen the set screw pull the gear out or in 1/6 of a cell size like .9 mm (assuming 5.4 mm cells, a 1/3 of a 1/2 of a cell is plenty to try for the first move.
> ...


That was the first possibility I considered when I thought about the timing, in which case I thought there would be some alignment marks on the gears or rollers but that is not the case.I also thought that it was designed so that the displacement of a tooth corresponds to the displacement of a cell, so that it would be a permanent alignment (in any tooth of the gear), but considering that the hexagon of the cell has a height of 5.4 mm, the gear 34 teeth and the approximate diameter of the roller is about 85 mm, the displacement per tooth is greater than 5.4 mm, about 7 mm which rules out that hypothesis.

Contacting the manufacturer was ideal, but I did not get it, this machine may be around 20 years old and has no manufacturer's markings. The one who had the machine before got it through an intermediary who, according to them, ordered it from Italy (it is feasible because in those years Italy must have been one of the main producers of beekeeping machinery in the EU, and the motors and gearboxes are Italian brands). The previous owners did not get along with the machine and had it stopped for many years.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Manu73 said:


> That was the first possibility I considered when I thought about the timing, in which case I thought there would be some alignment marks on the gears or rollers but that is not the case.I also thought that it was designed so that the displacement of a tooth corresponds to the displacement of a cell, so that it would be a permanent alignment (in any tooth of the gear), but considering that the hexagon of the cell has a height of 5.4 mm, the gear 34 teeth and the approximate diameter of the roller is about 85 mm, the displacement per tooth is greater than 5.4 mm, about 7 mm which rules out that hypothesis.
> 
> Contacting the manufacturer was ideal, but I did not get it, this machine may be around 20 years old and has no manufacturer's markings. The one who had the machine before got it through an intermediary who, according to them, ordered it from Italy (it is feasible because in those years Italy must have been one of the main producers of beekeeping machinery in the EU, and the motors and gearboxes are Italian brands). The previous owners did not get along with the machine and had it stopped for many years.


ok maybe try to find other owners, user group, I presume these at 1 time were made and several still exist.
Hopefully someone understands the tuning. is the drum solid? if there is a sleeve with the embossing, can it be moved.

be odd if it has no tunning at all.
IMO it has and we do not know what it is.

GG


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

You also talked about the space between the stamping rollers. If you open the the throat of the rollers, the gears on the end are also separating. As the gears separate the mesh of them gets wider or more loose, this will also affect the timing.

At some point you will have to decide on the thickness and then time the stamping rollers.

Question.......Have you been able to get the results you are looking for out of this before?


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

The upper roller as mentioned throughout the post if it can be adjusted in two directions, the problem is that to see how it affects the setting I need to put a piece of wax in the machine and see the result, but to stick forces to waste a lot of time then to clean the roller. Attached are some pictures of the adjustment screws




























1: Screw that acts as a stop and regulates the space between rollers, as well as the pressure exerted by the roller on the wax of course.

2: adjustment screws in the direction perpendicular to the roller, 2 on each side.

3: Leveling pad

4: adjusting screws in the direction of the upper roller axis, 2 per side


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

G3farms said:


> You also talked about the space between the stamping rollers. If you open the the throat of the rollers, the gears on the end are also separating. As the gears separate the mesh of them gets wider or more loose, this will also affect the timing.
> 
> At some point you will have to decide on the thickness and then time the stamping rollers.
> 
> Question.......Have you been able to get the results you are looking for out of this before?


What I was saying about the roller clearance is that with the pressure screw (1 in the picture above) completely loosened it seems very little to me, in fact from what I have been seeing it seems that the weight falls on the gears and it should not be so, so I suspected that the "Leveling pad" (I do not know if there is any other name for it) needed to be replaced.

As for the gap, the only effect its increase should have is that it exerts less pressure and the wax lamination with the pattern is less marked.

And with respect to the last question, I have had the machine for a few days and so far I have managed to laminate, which did not work before, but not to stamp.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

It appears that most of the advice are good.

Filtering and solar bleaching of the wax before beginning, wax temperature, number of dips of the boards, room temperature, roller temperature, parallelism of the rollers, intermesh timing of the embossing pattern rollers, distance between the rollers (both smooth and texture rollers), finish of the rollers, are all critical. Use of the correct paper can be a huge help. Using paper will require different settings.

If you have to, try contacting Dadant and Sons, who do most of the wax rendering in the United States, or perhaps Dee Lusby of Amado, Arizona. I believe she knows the topic quite well.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Once you believe that you have the texture rollers correctly timed, I would suggest setting them too wide apart at first, rolling a sheet, set it a little bit closer, rolling a sheet, setting it a little closer, roll a sheet, et cetera, until you have an acceptable sheet of foundation wax.

If you have some kind of hot box in which to store the sheets from the smooth rollers, you should be able to vary that temperature and find the appropriate temperature range for that batch of wax.Start out very close to the temperature that has worked out best for you and vary it up or down, which ever way you suspect will work better.


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

kilocharlie said:


> It appears that most of the advice are good.
> 
> Filtering and solar bleaching of the wax before beginning, wax temperature, number of dips of the boards, room temperature, roller temperature, parallelism of the rollers, intermesh timing of the embossing pattern rollers, distance between the rollers (both smooth and texture rollers), finish of the rollers, are all critical. Use of the correct paper can be a huge help. Using paper will require different settings.
> 
> If you have to, try contacting Dadant and Sons, who do most of the wax rendering in the United States, or perhaps Dee Lusby of Amado, Arizona. I believe she knows the topic quite well.


That's right, there are many factors involved in the process and the result may not be the expected one due to a major problem in the machine, but to the sum of small failures/misadjustments.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Does "3" have a taper?

You say the lamination works. For grins, cut a piece to size and compare it's weight to a commercial sheet. We do not know what size equipment you run, but deeps are roughly 7 sheets to the pound.

Crazy Roland


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

Roland said:


> Does "3" have a taper?
> 
> You say the lamination works. For grins, cut a piece to size and compare it's weight to a commercial sheet. We do not know what size equipment you run, but deeps are roughly 7 sheets to the pound.
> 
> Crazy Roland


If you are referring to the leveling pad, "elliptical" shape.
It works in the sense that I can make sheets and each time I control more and more the temperature and pressure so that it does not stick, but I do not have to compare how well or badly it works because I had never physically seen one of these machines. The thickness of the laminator I can adjust it to taste according to the separation of the rollers, obviously not everything goes, if the thickness of the starting wax block is considerable it is more difficult to get the correct laminating temperature in the tank where it is heated and it may be necessary two passes to reduce the thickness, the problem of adhesion in the laminate occurs mainly when the roller exerts excessive pressure which in turn occurs when the wax is not at a suitable temperature and the space between rollers is too narrow. However, I have seen that it seems that they do not usually reduce the foil to the final thickness, but that in the stamping machine itself a reduction is also made, for example: 



 It's something I'm thinking about whether it really makes a difference


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

After making adjustments to the machine and experimenting with different pressures, temperatures... I have been able to get the first sheets. I have to make some small adjustments so that the pattern is perfectly straight on the sheet and clean the stamping roller that has traces of wax from the tests I was doing (that is why the marks that are seen on the sheets) and also adjust a little thickness, otherwise all that remains is to make all the wax for this campaign. 










Thank you all for your contributions!


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

Why is you wax so dark?


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

G3farms said:


> Why is you wax so dark?


The wax with which I did the tests is wax from frames that were replaced because they were already old I did not dare to use the operculum to carry out experiments 😂, 
also that they came out a little thicker than normal makes it more opaque


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Manu73 said:


> After making adjustments to the machine and experimenting with different pressures, temperatures... I have been able to get the first sheets. I have to make some small adjustments so that the pattern is perfectly straight on the sheet and clean the stamping roller that has traces of wax from the tests I was doing (that is why the marks that are seen on the sheets) and also adjust a little thickness, otherwise all that remains is to make all the wax for this campaign.
> 
> 
> View attachment 67537
> ...


so happy you got it to work
that looks dark is it melted brood comb or did you dope it with a dye?

happy milling.

GG


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Manu73 said:


> The wax with which I did the tests is wax from frames that were replaced because they were already old I did not dare to use the operculum to carry out experiments 😂,
> also that they came out a little thicker than normal makes it more opaque


Ah

good for decoy hives or trap hives


market them a "special trapping wax" with built in smells

GG


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

Gray Goose said:


> so happy you got it to work
> that looks dark is it melted brood comb or did you dope it with a dye?
> 
> happy milling.
> ...


Thanks a lot. Yes, the color is because they are melted brood comb removed by old


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

During the 150th open house at Dadant I saw their foundation mill run. IIRC, the sheet should not change length or width going thru the embosser. It should only change vertical (during operation)shape with the addition of the hexagon pattern. I can see potential problems if the sheet is too thick, and the wax must flow in the embossing operation. This could cause it to shear into three sheets, a stationary to the rollers top and bottom, and a flowing center..

Crazy Roland


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

I have seen the foundation mills at Kelley's run, an I agree the flat sheet of wax did not get any wider or longer. It was just enough pressure to emboss the pattern into the thin sheet.

Somewhere on youtube there is a video of Kelley's wax shop. 

found this, even has some pics






Our Walter T. Kelley Factory Tour | Hudsonville Honey







hudsonvillehoney.com


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

Manu73 said:


> Thanks for your input, I think the rollers are formed by a steel core to which some kind of ductile alloy (maybe some tin alloy) was added as a coating on which the hexagonal pattern was stamped. The stamping rollers are not perfect but judging by some that I have seen on the web they should work, but I do not know it is the first time I come in contact with a machine of this type and the wax stamping process.


the Russians attest to this






😂


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

The old machines from back in the 1800's used line-o-type lead for the embossing rollers, the same alloy used for printing presses. Do be very careful with them - this is an extremely soft metal. The pattern was upset forged into the roller by 3 small striking chisels (for lack of a better word) at different angles.

Better, stronger alloys are hopefully now being used in a 4th- and 5th-axis CNC lathe, mill, or combination machining center. The shape of the cavity in the foundation is very difficult to cut, involving a pointed cutter and movement in 3 directions that the mill does not like to move very much, and this repeatedly and on target around a very specific diameter. A masterful programmer and a highly skilled set-up / operator would readily admit that good parts included a bit of luck or even magic.

The manufacturing engineer wants just one perfect part and tries to mold the rest from it - also a difficult process. Cooling rates and shrinkage are almost never constant. And we require 2 of these rollers - near perfect, and timed together, so we can try / revise our wax quality, temperature, roller spacing, alignment, water temperature, room temperature, etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum.

Congratulations on your success!


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

kilocharlie said:


> The old machines from back in the 1800's used line-o-type lead for the embossing rollers, the same alloy used for printing presses. Do be very careful with them - this is an extremely soft metal. The pattern was upset forged into the roller by 3 small striking chisels (for lack of a better word) at different angles.
> 
> Better, stronger alloys are hopefully now being used in a 4th- and 5th-axis CNC lathe, mill, or combination machining center. The shape of the cavity in the foundation is very difficult to cut, involving a pointed cutter and movement in 3 directions that the mill does not like to move very much, and this repeatedly and on target around a very specific diameter. A masterful programmer and a highly skilled set-up / operator would readily admit that good parts included a bit of luck or even magic.
> 
> ...


Thank you. In my opinion, in rollers like the ones I have and the ones you see in the video I think they are manufactured by means of a stamping die, either by stamping the pattern on a tin foil and then sticking it to the solid roller or by coating the roller with the tin and then stamping the pattern, I can't be sure but that's the impression I get. I suppose there are also machined ones.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

The process was first developed in Fond du Lac Wisconsin by a Mr. Olm (?). IIRC. He may have a patent. To the best of my knowledge, it can not be machined on a milling machine, even with 4th axis. I believe three synchronized shaper type tools(action and shape) are needed to make the divot 

We have one of his mills, and yes, it has been badly damaged.

Crazy Roland


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

Here is a milled one (in an aluminum alloy they say)






And another interesting video about the manufacturing process


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

The CNC mill routine I saw in the 5-second video confirms my suspicion, that a shallow-pointed cutter is tilted somewhat (perhaps a small movement of the roller on the 4th axis) and run down in 3 directions to the deepest point, and the outer region of the inverted pyramid base is merely approximated by the contour of the cutter, not a mathematically defined cutting path. 

I suppose that the raised hexagonal lip (depressed hexagonal trough in the mold face of the roller) was milled separately with a different cutter, row-by-row as the 4th axis was held steady, then indexed to the next row.

I was impressed by the Russian automatic equipment in the second video and the consistency with which the wax behaved.

I'd love to have the money to make the rollers out of Ti-6AL-4V or out of 420 stainless so they are less likely to take impact damage or to corrode.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Manu - What size hexagons does your machine make? 

If it is 5.1mm across the flats (51 hexagons = 10 cm), perhaps I can send you some wax for processing into foundation sheets after you get it up and running smooth. I need it sized for Brother Adam hive sized brood frames which are 11-1/4 inches deep = 28.575 cm deep.

I see that you are about the same latitude as Northern California, and I guess a similar climate, so shipping foundation was should be good this time of year, as long as flight routes for postal freight don't pass over the poles nor the Equator. Shipping foundation wax is always risky - too cold it is brittle and arrives in pieces, too hot it is stuck together or worse.

Probably best to send a few pieces by mail both ways as a test run to see what happens to it in shipping.


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

kilocharlie said:


> Manu - What size hexagons does your machine make?
> 
> If it is 5.1mm across the flats (51 hexagons = 10 cm), perhaps I can send you some wax for processing into foundation sheets after you get it up and running smooth. I need it sized for Brother Adam hive sized brood frames which are 11-1/4 inches deep = 28.575 cm deep.
> 
> ...


The cell size of this machine is 5.4 mm (0.21 in), which is the most common size here.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Kilo - I may be wrong on needing a shaper type action. I believe the 1800's patent involved 3 chisels inclined to cut the faces. I will try to model it in gibbs cam and see what I get. Next time you watch that quick clip, watch the rotation of the chuck with the cut. It seemed to move more that the width of a cell plus a little overtravel

Titanium might not be the best,What is the thermal conduction rate for Titanium? 400 series stainless would be nice, and if you are a sadist, why not 17-4 ph? 

Crazy Roland


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Roland - Titanium - 6Al - 4V transfers heat at 6.7 W / mK, whereas Aluminum is approximately 205 W / mK, and mild steel is either 7.9, 11.3 or 340 to 400, depending if it is for air to air, water to air, or water to water. Seems to me the units could also be W / m^2K as the BTU / foot^2 / second is the most often quoted English units. They are all dependent upon fluid velocity, shape factors (I'm almost sure that mass to surface area affects the outcome - got'ta hold everything else still and vary only the material to get good info. 

For embossing, they'll all work. Heat transfer is only a little bit higher than negligible when in a water bath. It will fairly quickly assume the temperature of the water, assuming you use a large tank compared to the mass of the rollers.

My guess is that you have excellent intuition - 420 stainless should work very well, 440 is a bit harder to work, but should last eternal, and 17-4 is about like titanium - I can't afford either one. I mention titanium because it just does not like to corrode and the Ti-6Al-4V grade 5 is a fairly easy machining alloy as long as it is flooded with the best coolant / lubricant for your cutter, but the cost - UGGHHH!!! ~ 100X that of mild steel.

Mr. Olm's patent did have 3 "chisels", but I doubt that they were cutters - they were for upset forging individual faces of the pyramid-shaped divots. The soft material (line-o-type) flowed from the bottom of the divot to the peak away from the "chisel". I imagine that the "chisels" did some cutting as well - clearing off the faces of the resultant peaks. If it were my idea to patent - I'd have avoided this - the chips would cause havoc trying to maintain a clean pattern, lead fouling would be a continual problem (probably was anyways), and I did not see any compressed air, brushes, nor water jets to clear them.

If you decide to run one on CNC and get it right (or close enough), figure a price for me and I'll probably take a pair in 5.1 mm (51 hexagons = 10 cm). The engineering beastie is perhaps best executed as a roller circumference being an integer multiple of the 2 hexagons staggered [bottom point of one hex and top point of the other hex plus two wall thickness at point, projected to the side]. The exact number is a window - [(Large enough for the bearings to fit inside plus two safe wall thicknesses in diameter) times pi], as small above that minimum as you can get good parts to happen. I can post an exact calculation for 5.1mm cell size if you want. My buddy probably has Gibbs, Surfcam, Pro-E, and AutoCAD and can tell me the best way to go about it.

I had access to a 4th axis Haas VF4 last year and really should have pressed myself to get one programmed. The owner wasn't about to let me make beekeeping gear. I was close to building an I.I. setup while I was there (lots of small parts in the scrap bin, saved in a cardboard box), but was never allowed to assemble it. I'd been away from machining for 18 years and the programming part is what escaped my mind - G-codes and M-codes, all the comments and niceties I used to add to make beautiful, readable programs that were a breeze to edit - gone. I needed a Haas book and the 3-day course at Haas' factory.

Now I'm back near home and have built a functional "rough draft" I.I. stage in about 2 days' work, ready for about 3 days finishing if I were in a metal shop (I'm in a wood shop). All drill press, hack saw, and file , but it will work just fine as is.

If I do get to the point where I have a wax roller mill setup, you just KNOW that I will follow through with the 3-D printer and have drawn combs to offer my bees. I really should go visit you.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Incidentally - Gene Haas made a big grant to Ventura College for training machinists recently. I perhaps should have signed up for courses this semester, but the COVID hassles and being in a shop to rebuild beehives after the Thomas Fire destroyed my hives and my home, I'm just too busy. Once there are bees in the hives, I doubt I'll ever get the chance to take a college class.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I just watched the 5-second video again. It appeared to be in the hexagon cutting part of the program, not the pyramid divot part, judging by the rotation of the 4th axis servo and timing. I previously thought I had seen 3 movements, but now I think I saw the hexagon cutting phase.


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

Today I was going to try to make the adjustment of the stamping roller to correct the deviation that I mentioned before and I have seen something that does not fit me, in the image that I uploaded previously is observed:












The orientation of the "punches" of the upper roller (truncated rhombic dodecahedron) is the same as the lower one, but unless I'm missing something it should be the other way round so that they fit and stamp the pattern correctly, like this:













However, bearing in mind that the two ends of the roller shaft are different and are mounted the same as the lower roller I would say it is mounted as it came from the factory:


















Does anyone have any other point of view?


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

Do you have any plastic foundation?

You could loosen the top roller, from the shaft itself and the throat (up and down).
Insert the plastic foundation so as to let the bottom roller fit into the plastic foundation, then lower the top roller into the plastic foundation and tighten all of the set screws. 

Just a thought. Of course the plastic foundation would need to be the same size of the roller pattern.


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

G3farms said:


> Do you have any plastic foundation?
> 
> You could loosen the top roller, from the shaft itself and the throat (up and down).
> Insert the plastic foundation so as to let the bottom roller fit into the plastic foundation, then lower the top roller into the plastic foundation and tighten all of the set screws.
> ...



The mismatch I was commenting on is that if you look at the teeth of both rollers they look like "Y" lying down such that: -<

It doesn't look right to me, I think the upper one should be the other way around, that is: >-

For the males to fit correctly in the females, this implies that the roller is badly positioned and that it should be rotated (on an axis perpendicular to it that passes through its center to understand us).


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Kilo - I believe that the best temperature control is with a hollow fluid filled roller , with Deublin rotary couplings to supply a fluid. I have reason to believe that a conductive material, on par with Copper and Aluminum, is preferred . Any lack of uniformity in temperature would exhibit itself in uneven wax thickness, especially if the top roller was a different temperature than the bottom. 

OK, I pulled up Gibbscam, and got my butt handed to me. Forgot a whole lot. As long as it is winter, anyone know the precise angles on the bottom of the cell? I might as well draw the right geometry.

I will try to inspect the foundation mill from Mr. Olm tomorrow, and see if there are any "witness marks". We must remember that it was built before milling machines and endmills where common.

Having generated involute teeth with a straight sided shaper tool , and a gear train to roll the gear on it's pitch diameter, I wonder if the facets need to be cut in a similar manner, or is the roller is large enough, the error is insignificant.

Manu - .Could you put a piece of paper between the rollers and then GENTLY bring them together, Checking with a feeler gauge between the flanks of a gear tooth should show if it is tighter in one direction. than the other. You could then loosen up ONE set screw and try to even out the play so that the same size feeler gauge fits one either side and re-tighten...

Manu - you could also get a close temperature setting off some of the videos. The setting on the PID controllers MAY be set properly

Crazy Roland.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Sorry Manu - forgot your question. To the best of my knowledge, both rolls should have the same geometry. One's peak is the other's divot, and vise versa.. There is no left or right side to foundation.

Crazy Roland


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Also, when installed in the frames, the points of the hexagons (not the flats) need to go on the top and bottom. 

Roland - think of the hex as six equilateral triangles joined in the center. The equilateral triangle has three corners of 60 degrees. Since a point is aiming down, the angles of the perimeter of the hexagon 
9from the horizon) is half of that 60 degrees = 30 degrees.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Oops! The shift key is misfiring. The number 9 should have been an open parenthesis..."Since a point is aiming down, the angles of the perimeter of the hexagon (from the horizon) is half of that 60 degrees = 30 degrees.

Irritating that the new forum software doesn't offer editing at the bottom of the post.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Oh, and Manu - Looking through the foundation, each cell is offset from the opposite side so you see a "Mercedes Benz" emblem, except a hexagon outside instead of a circle. The bees do this for strength. The small amount of contact area in the vicinity of the midrib of the honeycomb is shorter when offset, allowing a small, but significant reduction in stretch. The significance is higher as the wax gets warm and the heat weakens its tensile strength.It also works out nicely for the alternating dome / divot pattern of the midrib.

Doesn't it just beg the question about their intelligence? As engineers, we have yet to come up with a honeycomb composite laminate with such a midrib. It would not be beneficial in a strength-to-weight ratio, but for sound damping, it could be impressive.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Oh, yes, Roland - as the gears interact on their pitch diameters (but think radius, not diameter), so do the rollers interact on their [pitch radius + half the wax thickness] sum. Of course there are two of them and they are "round" so two roller diameters + 1 wax thickness when doubled.

True, the narrower the embossing rollers, the greater the error from true involute. And as you are correct about fluid filled hollow rollers giving good temperature control, a larger roller has both less error and holds more fluid. Seems that the Russian machines are very well designed, if fluid filled.

I may go and talk to Gene Haas about this - I need his input on the 3-D printing and have him put me in touch with a programming mentor / tutor.


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

The quickest way to model it, I think, is to start from a hexagonal prism, draw the diagonals on the upper face and create three cutting planes that pass through those diagonals and the lower vertex of the prism. The key measurements are the size of the side of the prism and the height, which corresponds to the depth that you want the cell to have.
The top part can also be seen as a cube seen from a vertex, (I don't mean angles because I don't know which ones you need from the machining point of view, some are conditioned by the cell depth you want).


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

kilocharlie said:


> Oh, and Manu - Looking through the foundation, each cell is offset from the opposite side so you see a "Mercedes Benz" emblem, except a hexagon outside instead of a circle. The bees do this for strength. The small amount of contact area in the vicinity of the midrib of the honeycomb is shorter when offset, allowing a small, but significant reduction in stretch. The significance is higher as the wax gets warm and the heat weakens its tensile strength.It also works out nicely for the alternating dome / divot pattern of the midrib.
> 
> Doesn't it just beg the question about their intelligence? As engineers, we have yet to come up with a honeycomb composite laminate with such a midrib. It would not be beneficial in a strength-to-weight ratio, but for sound damping, it could be impressive.


Of course, this can be achieved in two ways, but as it is now, males and females would match like this:















The other way:















But in the first one I think that the planes of the cell that share the top and bottom sides are not perfectly defined, while in the second one they are, which seems to me to be what is happening. Looking through the web I can also see that some rollers are oriented in the other way.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

off topic..........
KiloCharlie, there is an edit button, on your post click on the three dots at the top right of the post. You can only edit for a limited time, 24 or 48 hours, I don't remember.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

So I went back back back in the archives and dug out the C. Olm foundation mill. It is pictured in the 1881 ABJ, but mine might be earlier, there is a brass tag, and no name in the top scroll.
It has sever damage, to the rollers, but otherwise is functional. The ? material on the rollers, which acts like Linotype, was turned down ? to the minor diameter on the ends for about 1/4". There are witness marks showing a cutting tool coming down parallel to one of the valleys, 60 deg from vertical???. The material is upset to the outside of the roller, not to the inside. To repeat, there is a burr to the gear side, and none in the other direction. If the material was being upseet, there would be a burr in both directions.

Manu - I did notice there are gibb adjustment screws to control the position of the upper roller as it is adjusted up and down. Help me here, is it possible that they would correct your front to back error if adjusted??? The upper roller would move horizontally, while constrained by the gear teeth, It might not help, but if you can model in soldiworks, you might be able to determine the effect., 

Kilo - still thinking on that angle I found it mentioned at one time, and IIRC, was associated with an error in the trig tables.

Crazy Roland the Luddite


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Roland said:


> Sorry Manu - forgot your question. To the best of my knowledge, both rolls should have the same geometry. One's peak is the other's divot, and vise versa.. There is no left or right side to foundation.
> 
> Crazy Roland


I believe what you are pointing out is the problem. If the peaks and divots don't fit exactly one into the other it would result in one part of the bottom of the cell being thicker than the one directly above and on the backside as well, resulting in wax flowing and being distorted and sticking at the point of imprinting.

Alex


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

AHudd said:


> I believe what you are pointing out is the problem. If the peaks and divots don't fit exactly one into the other it would result in one part of the bottom of the cell being thicker than the one directly above and on the backside as well, resulting in wax flowing and being distorted and sticking at the point of imprinting.
> 
> Alex


Yes, The soapy water bath provides a parting film between roller and wax, does it not? If there is too much pressure (too little clearance) at certain points, the wax there has to be extruded on some dimensions and the water film there is overcome. Some minor adjustment might be in order.


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

The adjustments of the upper roller I showed in a picture in a previous post, they are intended to make small adjustments in all directions except for the adjustment in the rotation that all the ones I see on the web have the two screws as shown by G3farms on page 2 and this one does not. To make the adjustments is simple although tedious you have to observe the thickness of the cells and act accordingly (when I finish this if I have time I will add some information on how the process is to serve for others as there is not much information). However, as I was correcting the cells it was not well defined and that is when I stopped to look at the roller and it did not fit me how they are placed one with respect to the other (which is what I show above) and it would only be solved by turning( interchanging the ends of the position roller) the roller, however, before doing so I am investigating a little more


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Loosening those set screws and rotating the gear on the shaft certainly is not a very controllable method when the correction factor may be quite small. I have used very fine electrical solder as a crush guage but there is a specialty deforming strip for setting engine bearing clearance that would be available at automotive supplies stores; called _*Plastigage*_ in Canada, _*Kolbenschmidt*_ in Germany.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

On the end opposite the motor, there is enough of the top shaft sticking out that you could make (or have made) an adjustable gear. It would not require very much machine work at all.

The original gear would be utilized and all that would need to be made is the adjustment part.


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## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

As far as making the rollers themselves, the pattern part, would it no be more simple to cut a set of rollers (the cutting tool) and imprint the the wax roller like putting knurling on round stock?

Trying to think outside of the 5 axis cnc world, old school you might say.


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

G3farms said:


> On the end opposite the motor, there is enough of the top shaft sticking out that you could make (or have made) an adjustable gear. It would not require very much machine work at all.
> 
> The original gear would be utilized and all that would need to be made is the adjustment part.


Yes, on one side it could be done on the other side there is no space.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

crofter said:


> Yes, The soapy water bath provides a parting film between roller and wax, does it not? If there is too much pressure (too little clearance) at certain points, the wax there has to be extruded on some dimensions and the water film there is overcome. Some minor adjustment might be in order.


Agree, it would be minuscule, for what is gained on one side is lost on the other. Unequal pressure could cause the water to be squeezed out of the area that is sticking before it can do it's job as a parting film. (thanks for the term) If the wax sticks to the top roller, too much adjustment could then cause the wax to stick to the bottom. Likewise, if the rollers are out of alignment horizontally it could cause the wax to stick on the right or left. I guess one way to tell would be to check how the Ys on the back of the sheet line up with the cell in front, across the sheet.
I'll bet a machine like that could be knocked out of alignment if it was dropped and show no visible sign of damage.

I have never seen one of these, so I don't have a clue if it is this sensitive to adjustment or not. I could be shooting in the dark.

Alex


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Manu73 said:


> Yes, on one side it could be done on the other side there is no space.


I think perhaps the rotational positioning is established at only one gear. (the end with the 2 diameters and set screws in hub) Looks like that may also be the only way to establish sideways location as well. The single dimension gear at the other end appears to need secondary adjustment to control end play. 

The embossed patterns on the rollers may be very correct but the adjustment mechanism is not very sophisticated to say the least. Not user friendly.


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

AHudd said:


> Agree, it would be minuscule, for what is gained on one side is lost on the other. Unequal pressure could cause the water to be squeezed out of the area that is sticking before it can do it's job as a parting film. (thanks for the term) If the wax sticks to the top roller, too much adjustment could then cause the wax to stick to the bottom. Likewise, if the rollers are out of alignment horizontally it could cause the wax to stick on the right or left. I guess one way to tell would be to check how the Ys on the back of the sheet line up with the cell in front, across the sheet.
> I'll bet a machine like that could be knocked out of alignment if it was dropped and show no visible sign of damage.
> 
> I have never seen one of these, so I don't have a clue if it is this sensitive to adjustment or not. I could be shooting in the dark.
> ...


The pressure exerted by the rollers on the wax is the most influential factor in it adhering to the rollers and what is clear is that if there is a misalignment in any direction this will cause the pressure to be uneven all over, which will cause the areas of higher pressure to adhere more. Misalignment is not a problem for the integrity of the rollers as long as the machine is not adjusted to make too thin a sheet of wax as this will damage the teeth.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Manu73 said:


> The pressure exerted by the rollers on the wax is the most influential factor in it adhering to the rollers and what is clear is that if there is a misalignment in any direction this will cause the pressure to be uneven all over, which will cause the areas of higher pressure to adhere more. Misalignment is not a problem for the integrity of the rollers as long as the machine is not adjusted to make too thin a sheet of wax as this will damage the teeth.
> 
> Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)


Maybe we are losing something in the translation... Being biased slightly tighter in one direction rotationally or longitudinally (or both) is what I consider mis alignmnent but perhaps Manu is suggesting that misalignment is skewing out of parallel of the two rollers. That could result in opposing variance of tightness left and right, even if the rotational timing was correct. Another variable is the amount of variance in straightness of both rollers. Run out. Being true to design of all these separate parameters is highly important. I am surprised that Manu has not mentioned having identified or sysstematically eliminated them as part of the problem.

Yes the soapy water film is the separating agent and areas where the wax is forced to be extruded more tend to break the film and wax to roller sticking occurs. The truer and more uniform the mating of the upper and lower rollers the closer they can be set together without creating localized tight spots.


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

crofter said:


> Maybe we are losing something in the translation... Being biased slightly tighter in one direction rotationally or longitudinally (or both) is what I consider mis alignmnent but perhaps Manu is suggesting that misalignment is skewing out of parallel of the two rollers. That could result in opposing variance of tightness left and right, even if the rotational timing was correct. Another variable is the amount of variance in straightness of both rollers. Run out. Being true to design of all these separate parameters is highly important. I am surprised that Manu has not mentioned having identified or sysstematically eliminated them as part of the problem.
> 
> Yes the soapy water film is the separating agent and areas where the wax is forced to be extruded more tend to break the film and wax to roller sticking occurs. The truer and more uniform the mating of the upper and lower rollers the closer they can be set together without creating localized tight spots.


The desalination is in either direction, on page 3 of the post I already put an image with all the settings that the machine has. How to correct these deviations as I commented more or less I was already deducing how to correct them by observing the wax, until I reached a point where I realized what I commented in the previous posts and which I am investigating before doing anything else


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Some of the parameters I mention may be built in errors in manufacturing. There may not be methods provided for adjustment of some of them. Sometimes trial an error gives a workable solution but there is a lot to be said for a systematic analysis of the basic necessities. Most processes of accurization must be done in ordered sequence. If you try to take short cuts confusion results.

I spent more than a month dismantling and truing up an Indian manufactured clone of an English Lister single cylinder diesel engine. Just about everything that could be crooked was. What a comical piece of work! From bearing clearances and preloads to ring gaps and piston deck height. Camshaft was out of time one tooth. Crankcase deck was too large to swing in my lathe so it needed draw filing. Cylinder casting was out of square with the bore, both top and bottom. * You just have to start at the base and work up, assuming that everything might be off design and correct it as you go.*

This is sure off topic for a foundation roller but the process applies to any mechanical problem.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

G3 - Thank you for the editing help. 

Manu - Awesome graphics! I love it. Maybe tell us how you are doing them?


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

kilocharlie said:


> G3 - Thank you for the editing help.
> 
> Manu - Awesome graphics! I love it. Maybe tell us how you are doing them?


I made them in solidworks


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Thank you, Manu.

Roland - I may try to make a roller using Luddite methods - two aluminum tubes are drilled for location / pattern and shaped pins are installed. I'm no longer in the machine shop, so access to CNC is gone. Lots of tapered hexagon pins with a round trunion end opposite the pyramid end need to be made....send that out for quotes? ugh!

If attempting such folly, how would you go about making recesses for the raised hexagons? Cutting a half-wall thickness around the pins is the only thought occurring so far. My instincts say there is a better way.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

OK - it just hit me. Make an EDM sinker mold for the pins. All pins from the same mold should give good consistency. 

Assembly will be a PITA, but a one-line alignment jig will keep it straight.

When the whole thing is glued up, I have a mold plug for a roller casting, so will have to figure in the shrink-back offsets.

The metal with the smallest known shrink-back is Invar-49, a high-nickel alloy. I'll check and see if it is feasible for casting in this type of detail.

Just toying with this idea, but it might work out.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

for small batch why not make a flat set up with a good long handle.
maybe the set up and construction time would trade off for the lever time.

make a flat roller for the sheets, then a press for the cell bases.

GG


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Kilo - don't forget Cerrosafe. .Very easy to rework mistakes. Still think the sadistic/masochistic 17-4PH is best. No worries about dimension changes in heat treating. 

I dug out the other mill we have. The first is from about 1881, C. OLM. The other is A. I. Root. I would guess it is 30 years newer??? Not as ornate. On the Root rollers , the start of the walls is a circle, unlike the Olm, where it is a hexagon.

On Beesource/home/forums/general discussion/resources/ there is a reprint of the 1891 ABC and XYZ of beekeeping. Much of what we have discussed is covered. I wish there was a better image of Mr. Olm's apparatus. Maybe a better man than I can find it on the patent.

Crazy Roland.


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

I think this is the article Roland is referring to:








Comb Foundation


ABC and XYZ of BEEKEEPING, A.I. Root - 1891 - Pages 62-72 COMB FOUNDATION. Since the introduction of foundation, within the past few years, many difficult points have been solved completely; such as, how to insure straight combs, how to insure all worker-comb or all drone-comb, as the case may...




www.beesource.com


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Yes, thank you Rader.
The OP might want to read it because it references wax and room temperatures.

My Root mill is not as new as I thought, It looks just like the one in that article.

Crazy Roland


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Graham - Thank you for the link!!

Roland - Any chance either of your embossers is a 5.1 mm hex?

I may just buy a mill and not try to re-invent the wheel. The effort should be spent on making the wax into drawn combs.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Roland -m the modern machining way of making the rollers is to make the impressions using a sinker EDM machine with and indexing head submerged in the dielectric fluid, providing that the EDM can move about in X and Y axes. A straight - down EDM sinker would have to have the indexing head mounted on a 2-axis table. Use what ever alloy you like


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

kilocharlie said:


> Graham - Thank you for the link!!
> 
> Roland - Any chance either of your embossers is a 5.1 mm hex?
> 
> I may just buy a mill and not try to re-invent the wheel. The effort should be spent on making the wax into drawn combs.


I don't know how much wax you have but if it's not too much, you might be better off with this type of stamper:










estampadora refrigerada universal


estampadora de cera refrigerada universal, todaas las celdilla, 4,9mm,zangano,etc




apitienda.es





They are cheaper than the roller ones


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Too late in the day to do higher Math. Both measure 7 1/16" for 40 peaks in the VERTICAL plane.. I will try to dig out my Autocad computer and cipher on what that is in the horizontal plane. Either way, they where made for English bees, and not those Metric German bees.

Crazy Roland


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

OK, did the Math, both measure .204" (5.18mm) in the horizontal plain. Some old sources quote 5 cells to the inch, so both are very close. I made "rubbings" of two other mills, but they are in a safe spot. Wen I find them, I will try to report back.

Crazy Roland


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

10 cells (flat sides - to - flat sides) = 51mm = 3.937 inches gives 5.1 mm cell size, what I'm looking for.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

As Maxwell Smart would say "Missed it my that much"

We tried 5.1, which was commercially available, and the bees did not care for it so much. I wonder what hey would think about 5.18?

I will try to measure Dadant foundation and report back. From Memory, Kelly was a bit smaller than Dadant.

Manu - what size is yours?

Rader - What is the best way to share a .dwg or .dxf file?

Crazy Roland


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

Roland said:


> As Maxwell Smart would say "Missed it my that much"
> 
> We tried 5.1, which was commercially available, and the bees did not care for it so much. I wonder what hey would think about 5.18?
> 
> ...


The cell size of this machine is 5.4 mm (0.21 in)


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## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

Roland said:


> What is the best way to share a .dwg or .dxf file?


The "Attachment" button will not accept .dwg files or .dxf files, or .zip files either. One alternative would be to use PMs to exchange emails and attach it to an email. Or a site like Dropbox could be used.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Thanks Rader. 

I found my rubbings and entered them in Autocad, as well as the current Dadant size.

Crazy Roland


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Roland - I'm curious about your comment, "...we tried 5.1, but the bees did not like it so much..."

What did you notice - queens just not laying in 5.1?, poor buildup? 

Fusion_power has been using small cell and narrow frames for years, so I'll check with him, too.

I recall hearing that the Lusby's bees took one generation of 5.1mm cell size before the next generation bees would accept 4.9mm cell size. I think Michael Bush uses the small cell foundation as well.

I was just curious about your own personal experience with 5.1.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

They did not draw it out well, tended to gain until they just mage a string of junk cells to get back on track. The junk cells looked like scars on the frame. 4.9 was much worse. IIRC we tried about 20 hives on 5.1, in numerous yards , and saw no difference after a couple years. 

Dadant sells 5.1 - part number F350003SC5 

Let's not forget that at the time of production of the Olm and A. I Root mills in the 1880's, the small German bee was much more prevalent, if not dominant.

I am now wondering how the bees would accept the 5.18 from those old mills. Might have to test that this spring.

Crazy Roland.


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

Roland - Now that's interesting. Looks like I may need a small breed of bees in order to use it, or just have to go larger cell size. Please keep me posted about the 5.18mm cells.

From all I've heard, most bees accept the 5.1mm wax. I know you're not trying to sell me anything - for money nor just bravo sierra. You've always been one of the straight shootin' dudes here on Beesource. Thank you!


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

My math sense says that the Metric - to - English conversion I used above might be off. 51mm should be 2.00787 inches. Sorry about that.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Which now aligns with the ancient definition of an inch as 5 bee cells long, 

Crazy Roland


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## kilocharlie (Dec 27, 2010)

I guess that proves that we really are descendants of aliens from Uranus, huh? heeheehee


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

Manu73 said:


> The adjustments of the upper roller I showed in a picture in a previous post, they are intended to make small adjustments in all directions except for the adjustment in the rotation that all the ones I see on the web have the two screws as shown by G3farms on page 2 and this one does not. To make the adjustments is simple although tedious you have to observe the thickness of the cells and act accordingly (*when I finish this if I have time I will add some information on how the process is to serve for others as there is not much information)*. However, as I was correcting the cells it was not well defined and that is when I stopped to look at the roller and it did not fit me how they are placed one with respect to the other (which is what I show above) and it would only be solved by turning( interchanging the ends of the position roller) the roller, however, before doing so I am investigating a little more


I have not forgotten. I found a manual of a machine where the process is explained so I don't waste my time explaining it, it's in Russian but with a translator the problem is solved


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## Manu73 (12 mo ago)

And the denouement of the thread was missing: 

As I said the roller was incorrectly oriented, I corrected it and adjusted the rollers and the pattern was already stamped correctly and works as you would expect. In the future I will make an improvement so that the lower roller is in contact with the water in the tank, since the cooling system once the wax enters prevents the water from reaching the lower roller.

I was also able to locate the manufacturer, but the truth is that it didn't help much, they didn't seem to know anything (which explains a lot of things).


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Thank you for the update.

Crazy Roland


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