# Screws, staples and glue........



## AL from Georgia (Jul 14, 2014)

While I am a new beekeeper, I have been a woodworker for many years. In support of your point, I have found that glued joints are much harder to take apart than nailed joints. I have broken several glued parts while trying to separate them. This tells me the glued joint is stronger than the wood itself. I hope we might hear from someone who does not use glue, only nails or staples.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Yes, nails staples or screws just hold the wood together long enough for the glue to dry. But the hold they provide isn't equal. A nail will just literally hold the board in place. A staple holds it a little closer. A screw will pull the boards together, creating a very tight fit between the boards. The longer the screw or staple, the better the grip it takes on the boards, which means the tighter it can pull the boards together (within reason). A longer nail doesn't necessarily hold the board better.

With most boxes, either if you use rabbit joints or box joints, you are gluing end grain to side grain. Generally speaking, that doesn't make for the strongest joint. Even with glue. So the closer you can get the end grain to the side grain, the stronger the joint. Screws typically get that accomplished.

I've assembled using nails, screws, staples, all with and without glue (necessity can be a beast some times). That being said, the order of strength, in my experience, has been (from weakest to strongest) 1) staples, no glue 2) nails, no glue 3) screws, no glue 4) nails with glue 5) staples with glue 6) screws with glue.

Although, in reality, the strength between two consecutively ranked items is usually marginal. Although the strength of two or more items separated can be greatly differing. For example, #2 and #3 will probably compare in strength similarly, but #2 and #5 are miles apart. 

In the end, whatever is easiest and cheapest. I usually use nails and glue, just because I can set my framing nailer up and do a box in a few min. Screws would take significantly more time. But if a side is warped, or a joint ins't perfect, I usually use 2 or 3 screws on the side to true up the board and make a good flush fit before finishing off the rest with nails. I'm not a big fan of staples on boxes. Love them on frames though.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Specialkayme said:


> A nail will just literally hold the board in place. A staple holds it a little closer. A screw will pull the boards together, creating a very tight fit between the boards.


Say what?! How do you arrive at this?


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Glue joints will often degrade over time especially endgrain to sidegrain. Even then the glue still gives enhanced compressive strength to the wood. With glue only a joint can fail abruptly; with the mechanical fastener as backup you will notice it getting wiggly.

I agree with Specialkame; the mechanical fastener along with the glue yields a result that is more than the sum of their separate strengths.

Acebird should be along soon telling us how wrong we are though!


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

No issue with that, but I do take issue with the nail - staple - screw holding ability. This coming from someone who has embedded untold number of nails, staples, and screws in wood in his lifetime.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

To test, how about running a nail and a screw straight up into the ceiling with their heads exposed. Hook your hammer claw on it and hang your full weight. What happens?


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Specialkayme said:


> With most boxes, either if you use rabbit joints or box joints, you are gluing end grain to side grain. Generally speaking, that doesn't make for the strongest joint. Even with glue.


You are only focusing on one part of the joint; the inside to inside.
The majority of the strength of a box joint is from the top and bottom of each finger, glued to the next.
This is "side grain to side grain" right on down the line.
And this part of the glued joint is what makes box joints clearly the strongest joint possible.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

cg3 has worked construction as well. All three fasteners have not just holding ability but also "pulling" ability. Nails and staples in wood, especially coated ones, actually pull the two pieces together. Whether it's a hammer or a screwdriver, applying force to either fastener will draw two items together and hold them there.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Very good point. Considering frames are so tedious to assemble, have anyone tried running a super with frames that have only been glued?


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

I am of the opinion that nails are perfectly adequate for this job but I'm reminded of all the decks I've seen, 5 years later, where the decking was nailed rather than screwed down. There's more going on with wood, out in the weather, than initial fastening.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Ardox spiral nails with hold considerably better than a smooth nail. But not as good as a screw. Think the use of a hammer makes the nailed joint tighter than a staple.

I think order of holding power, most to least, is screws, ardox nails, and lowest is staples.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

cg3 said:


> I'm reminded of all the decks I've seen, 5 years later, where the decking was nailed rather than screwed down.


This happens to nails as well as screws. It's the nature of wood. Every year or so I have to re-seat all the screws in my deck. Unlike a box joint, we don't use glue in the construction of decks and we're also attaching two boards that are laying on top of each other, not using integrated joints for holding power.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Many of you are dwelling on the holding power of screw vs nail vs staple............. what about using them in CONJUNCTION with glue?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Yes! Personally I'd use either nails or screws and stay away from staples. We're talking hives here, not houses. At least with a nail or screw you can re-set them over the years as they may work loose, staple would be pretty difficult to do. And this will vary depending on what type of joint is used. All my box jointed hives have not become loose. I also use glue.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Barry said:


> At least with a nail or screw you can re-set them over the years as they may work loose, staple would be pretty difficult to do.


True, but you can easily "staple again," could you not?


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Yes I use glue on all joints - just pointing out benefit of ardox nails. And use the galvanized ardox nail.

Standard staple will be the first to rust off.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

mgolden said:


> Standard staple will be the first to rust off.


Most likely true, but isn't the glue the true holding power now?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

Barry said:


> Say what?! How do you arrive at this?


Is this a joke?

A nail has one long spike with a flat head attached (unless you are using a finishing nail). The flat head portion is what is used to push the nail down, and ultimately hold the board where the nail is. The friction from the long nail keeps the nail into the second board. A staple, by comparison, has almost as much surface area on the "flat part" (unless you are using roofing nails) as the nail does (arguably more, depending on the gauge of the staple). But instead, the staple stretches across grain, whereas the nail holds the board down in the weakest part, right next to the hole. Additionally, a staple has TWO long spikes. These two spikes create greater friction into the second board, holding it better in comparison than a nail with the same thickness and length.

But the mechanics of a screw work differently than the nail. The screw actually pulls the two boards together. 

I really can't believe I'm explaining this . . . 

If you doubt me, take six test boards. Apply the same amount of glue to three boards. Put the other three ontop of the three that are glued. Nail one down, staple the next, and screw the last (all with the same length and gauge). Measure how much glue is worked out of the joint. Can you take a guess which one has more?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

HarryVanderpool said:


> The majority of the strength of a box joint is from the top and bottom of each finger, glued to the next.


Correct, but that isn't what you are nailing/stapling/screwing into place. The strength of the joint between two fingers depends on how well the cuts were made at the factory (or your workshop), and has nothing to do with the fasteners that are used to hold it into place. In actuality, no fasteners would achieve the same result (provided the boards are held together long enough for the glue to dry). 

So the strength of the "side grain to side grain" is a constant in all applications (that use glue). The question then becomes which one provides the greatest end grain to side grain strength, in addition to the side grain to side grain strength.


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## mgolden (Oct 26, 2011)

Strongest and likely longest lasting joint is box joint with glue and non rusting screw. Screw is best holding power of fasteners and provides tightest wood to glue to wood contact.

Next is rust proof ardox nail and glue. Hammer makes a tighter wood to glue to wood contact than an air nailer or stapler.

Poorest strength and I suspect shortest super life is glue and stapler. Wood to glue to wood contact is not as tight and standard staple will rust first.

I use box joints, glue, galvanized ardox nails, pipe clamps, and two coats of wood preservative and expect a long life out of the supers.


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## burns375 (Jul 15, 2013)

My opinion is....When it comes to gluing, ingoring grain orientation and type of joint, the strength and quality of the glue joint is dependent on the Clamping force....however that is achieved. A screw will likely provide the best clamping force. A pin nailer will likely not provide adequate clamping force.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Is this really something that becomes an issue? I've put boxes together in virtually all the ways mentioned and have yet had any loosen up. Admittedly, my oldest equipment is just 6 yrs old.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Now, from the engineering standpoint, what is really needed? I mean, we are not holding a bridge together or attaching the a jet engine to a wing...


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

cg3 said:


> Is this really something that becomes an issue?


Yes.

I've had boxes that, while they still stay together, wobble and don't stay square. Never had a box come apart yet. I've had bottom boards, tops, and of course frames that fall apart. Some that I've made, some that are factory built, some that are made by others. Not common within the first 2-3 years. A few fail within the 5 year time frame, but not many. 10+ year old equipment you'll see some failures typical with certain types of construction.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

jcolon said:


> what is really needed?


It's all about marginal benefit. Same holds true with bridges and jet engines. 

Certain parts and quality of materials will last a certain period of time. I could make a bridge out of 2x4's that would probably last a summer of fairly regular driveway traffic with a light car. I wouldn't put it much further than that. Better materials give you better marginal performance. Continue increasing those materials, and you continue getting better marginal performance. To the point where you make a bridge out of steel and expect it to last a few decades (but not forever).

Same is true with beekeeping equipment. I could make a box out of wood and use no glue and it will hold together alright. But the cost of the glue and the screws is insignificant when you can extend the life of the equipment by two (at least). Small input, which creates greater return than the value of the added input.

If you don't use glue, or use thumbtacks to hold the box together, you'll do fine. It just won't last as long. For most that are in this game in the measurement of decades, you aren't interested in re-doing something in the future unless you have to.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

Specialkayme said:


> 10+ year old equipment you'll see some failures typical with certain types of construction.


I'm trying to think of another $10 item with a 10 yr useful life.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

snl said:


> Many of you are dwelling on the holding power of screw vs nail vs staple............. what about using them in CONJUNCTION with glue?


Well of course. All my joints are glued and stapled. Oh..not all. 

But glue does fail and so do staples and nails...especially if the wood gets wet and swells and shrinks...which happens to bee hives. Have you ever seen a nail walk itself right out of the bee box? Caused by the swelling and shrinking of the wood which is caused by the humidity within the hive swelling the wood and then the drying in summer, which shrinks the wood. Same thing can happen to glue.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

cg3 said:


> I'm trying to think of another $10 item with a 10 yr useful life.


So . . . the fact that a little better glue and some screws (costing $0.50) can turn that 10 year item into a 30-60 year item means nothing? So you'll spend $30-60 on that box over it's useful life instead of $10.50.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

That's not what I'm asking. I do indeed use good glue and fasteners. Are you saying a well made box will never need maintanance? Or little enough that it is totally not worth it to bang a box together in a pinch with less than optimal fasteners?


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

Specialkayme said:


> So . . . the fact that a little better glue and some screws (costing $0.50) can turn that 10 year item into a 30-60 year item means nothing? So you'll spend $30-60 on that box over it's useful life instead of $10.50.


6X life?


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

cg3 said:


> Are you saying a well made box will never need maintanance?


It'll require removal of propolis, repainting, and patching of mouseholes (if any). Just like any other box. Only difference is a well made box makes it to the point where you need to repaint it. A poorly made box doesn't. By the time you need to repaint, it's already loose, rotten, or worn out.



cg3 said:


> Or little enough that it is totally not worth it to bang a box together in a pinch with less than optimal fasteners?


There are times when it's necessary to "bank a box together in a pinch with less than optimal fasteners." Time being the biggest element. It takes a good amount of time to put screws in each finger joint, rather than run a framing nailer down one side. It takes a good amount of time to prime and add two coats of paint to a box. That time costs something. Not only in labor, but in lost opportunity. If you have a honey flow going on and you are in the middle of it without any extra supers, is it worth it for you to take 3 hours and assemble 10 boxes, then spend three days painting, curing, painting, and curing? Or would you be better of throwing it together and getting it on the hive? Story is different if you are in December and planning for the year.

All things being equal, I prefer screws. But, when I'm putting together 40 hive bodies do I want to take the time to put in 24 screws (or however many it is) into each box? Do I have the time, or want to spend the time, to put in 960 screws? Usually I don't unless some of the boards are warped or slightly bent. But if I'm assembling 5 hive bodies, that's a different story.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

jcolon said:


> 6X life?


Yup.

I've bought bee equipment off people who's fathers have used the boxes. Assembled in the 50's. Still works great. I also have some boxes from 5-6 years ago that have seen better days. By my math that's greater than 6x life. But we're talking generalities here.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

Specialkayme said:


> So the strength of the "side grain to side grain" is a constant in all applications (that use glue). .


No, that is not true.
The finger joint has many more times the surface area in comparison to any other joint.
It is that additional horizontal surface area that gives the most strength.
End to side glued surfaces in the finger joint contribute in a minor way only in the unit strength, otherwise is a very weak joint strategy. 




Specialkayme said:


> The question then becomes which one provides the greatest end grain to side grain strength, in addition to the side grain to side grain strength.


If that is a significant issue in a joint, I would not even bother using glue.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

To me is a matter of time. I dont have lots of it, so its pretty valuable. I dont paint. I have some supers nail+glue. Some just glue. Just glue is way easier and faster. Is a $10 box. If i get 5 years out of it, that's 2 dollars a year. If i get more, even better. If not, remove and replace. At the end of the day, so far, i have not had one complaint from the bees.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

HarryVanderpool said:


> No, that is not true.


I don't think you read, or understood, what I said.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

jcolon said:


> Is a $10 box. If i get 5 years out of it, that's 2 dollars a year.


If you have 1 hive, who cares. If you are operating 10, eh. When you have 100 double deeps with 3 supers each, that's an extra $1,000 per year. 

If you employ the same strategy with top covers, bottom boards, and frames you'll find yourself replacing the entire hive every five years. At $200 per hive, that would make $40 each year. Not counting the bees. That's an expensive venture.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

I'm curious now. Is anybody going to change their method of construction of hives with what you've learned in this thread?


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Specialkayme said:


> Yup.
> 
> I've bought bee equipment off people who's fathers have used the boxes. Assembled in the 50's. Still works great. I also have some boxes from 5-6 years ago that have seen better days. By my math that's greater than 6x life. But we're talking generalities here.


And the funny thing is, they're probably not put together with staples or screws, but nails!


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

put your boxes together with box joints, titebondIII glue and 6d galvanized common nails then prime and paint properly and they will outlast you.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Tim KS said:


> I'm curious now. Is anybody going to change their method of construction of hives with what you've learned in this thread?


I think you are right Tim; at least we are all in the same hymnbook on the merits of a good glue!

My son has purchased some hive bodies that have no apparent fasteners at all, (just glue I think) but are wax dipped. I think they will be around for a while. I am getting to the age where I am not bothering to creosote my fence posts any more!


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

You have that right, clyderoad!


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

yeah I know, Barry. And you do too.
I've been a carpenter for many years, seen most of what works
and what doesn't.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

crofter said:


> I am not bothering to creosote my fence posts any more!


Yep.....and I don't buy green bananas either.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

Tim KS said:


> Yep.....and I don't buy green bananas either.


:thumbsup: 
you, odfrank and crofter would make for some funny show.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

crofter said:


> I am getting to the age where I am not bothering to creosote my fence posts any more!


I am also thinking about the next guy.
I'm betting that when I'm gone and my equipment is in the next guy's or gal's hands, there will be a compliment uttered from time to time:
"He really kept his equipment in good shape"
Something like that will do.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Harry don't be trying to send an old guy on a guilt trip; I am only trying to rationalize away my laziness!


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Five years in beekeeping and in quite a few instances the nails in my nailed hives are walking out. None of the stapled hives have staples that are drifting out. I do use glue on everything and have never used screws, on my hives or hive components anyway. Makes me wonder if brad nailed boxes drift out as badly as nails do. My stapler is set to sink the staples below the surface so maybe they're creeping but its not noticeable. Most nails are out about 1/4" or less.


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## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

crofter said:


> Harry don't be trying to send an old guy on a guilt trip; I am only trying to rationalize away my laziness!


Haaa Haaa Haaa!!!!

Frank, that was funny! 

O.K. For now on, I'm on your side!


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

crofter said:


> Glue joints will often degrade over time especially endgrain to sidegrain. Even then the glue still gives enhanced compressive strength to the wood. With glue only a joint can fail abruptly; with the mechanical fastener as backup you will notice it getting wiggly.
> 
> I agree with Specialkame; the mechanical fastener along with the glue yields a result that is more than the sum of their separate strengths.
> 
> Acebird should be along soon telling us how wrong we are though!


Acebird's bee information is sometimes in doubt, but when he talks engineering he impresses me.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

cg3 said:


> Is this really something that becomes an issue? I've put boxes together in virtually all the ways mentioned and have yet had any loosen up. Admittedly, my oldest equipment is just 6 yrs old.


The only joint I've ever had pop loose was a rabbett. I think that was the fault of the constructor rather than the construction. I glue the box together (using butt joints) and after the glue sets I screw it with 4 3" deckmate screws in each corner on a deep and 3 on a medium. I don't really want to use the scientific method to find out what works and what doesn't. I just want to use what works for me.


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

crofter said:


> I think you are right Tim; at least we are all in the same hymnbook on the merits of a good glue!
> 
> My son has purchased some hive bodies that have no apparent fasteners at all, (just glue I think) but are wax dipped. I think they will be around for a while. I am getting to the age where I am not bothering to creosote my fence posts any more!


I know the feeling. I don't buy family size bottles of shampoo.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

With a box joint A screw is probably better due to its superior holding force. For a rabbet joint nails are better as they are more likely experience shear.

Screws hold well, but are brittle. They aren't suitable for shear loads. This is why they are used for deck boards, but not for joist hangers. Nails don't have the same holding/pullout resistance, but they handle shear loads much better, hence their use in joist hangers.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I can understand using staples for speed compared to having to drill and countersink each place you use a deck screw. If you dont countersink you put a split in the wood at each screw it; a perfect water access for rot which is the main enemy of boxes. I like the screws though as they do a better job of pulling the cup out of deep hive boards. A power clamping jig and a wide gauge stapler (not the dinky narrow crown) would be my choice if I regularly had to assemble hundreds of boxes. 

It irks me to see boards cut so shrinkage pulls the tops and bottoms away from the box rather than sucking them in. Remember, dont put the heart in the box!


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

crofter said:


> It irks me to see boards cut so shrinkage pulls the tops and bottoms away from the box rather than sucking them in. Remember, dont put the heart in the box!


Can you expand on this? I don't think I understand.


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## mtforge (Nov 3, 2014)

Tim KS said:


> I'm curious now. Is anybody going to change their method of construction of hives with what you've learned in this thread?


Not change but start. I'm a blacksmith. I understand iron. I don't like working with wood. It moves, shrinks, swells. :scratch: So I'm trying to find out a way to assemble my hives without becoming a full blown woodworker.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Unless it is perfectly quarter sawn ( which is highly unlikely in 10" wide boards) you can look at the end and visualize where the center of the tree was. Shrinkage will naturally cup wood toward the bark side. Cut so assembly is heart side out.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

http://www.artisansofthevalley.com/ed/wd/ed_wd_britannicawarp.jpg

Gotcha. Thanks for explaining it.


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## Sadler91 (Nov 6, 2011)

We just staple them together. In Florida they last about 5 years with paint. We just started dipping. When you dip boxes I assume they swell and then shrink? Or do they swell and stay that size? I also wonder about glue when you dip? Does the heat bother it? Any wax dipping experts here?


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## psfred (Jul 16, 2011)

Box joints are mechanically the strongest joints to use, and they work very well even dry nailed so long as you use zinc galvanized nails (if you can find them -- hot dip galvanized nails are hard to find, and the fancy plastic coated with zinc powder ones are about the same as bare nails) they will stay together for a long time.

The main problem with all fasteners in boxes is that they are in end grain and nothing has very much holding power. Nails resist being pulled out because they tear the fibers of the wood and bend then over to follow the point, and you must apply enough force to flip them over to get the nail out -- that's why once it moves, it's fairly easy to pull the rest of the way out. In end grain, the nail (or staple) is just forced in between the fibers. A screw cuts the fibers in a spiral and will definitely hold better in end grain so long as it's not turned without advancing -- half a turn with the head no longer moving down and it won't hold as well as a nail, it's become a drill instead! Not a big issue in soft pine as the screw will keep sinking most of the time after the head contacts the surface, but in heart pine, which is much harder and full of resin, it's easy to strip the fibers out, in which case the screw won't hold as well as a nail.

Glue serves two purposes -- it mechanically fastens the wood together, and it excludes water. The second is more important, I think, with box joints. Prying boxes apart racks them rather badly, and with a box joint the force being applied to the side board is transferred to the end boards by the "fingers" of the joint. Rabbet or butt joints have that force transferred by either the glue or the fasteners. Glue will fail along the end grain to side grain boundry as the end grain does not hold it well. Nails can easily be "started" by side force, and while they may handle shear forces well, end grain in wood does not.

If you doubt me, throw a nailed and glued or screwed and glued box jointed box and a rabbet jointed box off the roof of your house or out of the back of your truck driving down the road. The rabbet joint will fail, the box joint likely will not.

Dry nailed box joints were what everyone used until the 60's when aliphatic more or less waterproof glues became available, and they lasted decades if kept painted. 

Peter


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## Mr.Beeman (May 19, 2012)

I didn't read the entire post to here, because frankily I didn't feel like it, but, pneumatic nails and staples are coated in a glue like substance that will also enhance the holding power of each. Once the nail or staple is fired the "glue" heats up from friction and then solidifies around the penetration. Much like a hot glue gun.
BTW, I rabbet, glue and staple with coated staples. No problems yet in over 3 years. Looks like I built them yesterday.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Let's try this another way. Who had boxes come apart and what did you use to when you made them?

Personally, now (within the last 5 years) I just staple (1/4" crown with 1.5" depth) and glued mine (most are box cut) and never had one come apart........... I used to screw them but found the screw would rust out..(no, I didn't use deck screws) but even then, the glue kept them together.....


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

snl said:


> Let's try this another way. Who had boxes come apart and what did you use to when you made them?
> 
> Personally, now (within the last 5 years) I just staple (1/4" crown with 1.5" depth) and glued mine (most are box cut) and never had one come apart........... I used to screw them but found the screw would rust out..(no, I didn't use deck screws) but even then, the glue kept them together.....


The first box I made for myself was from home-depot wood with a rabbet joint, titebond II and nails. It was so ugly I was afraid it would make the bees swarm so I stapled a screen on the bottom and used it for a work box. It has bowed out and pulled apart at the middle of the corners. Next time I screw (figuratively) up a box, I will adopt it as a work box and use that one to start a fire.


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## Specialkayme (Sep 4, 2005)

snl said:


> Who had boxes come apart and what did you use to when you made them?


First box I ever assembled was a finger joint box using 10D nails, no glue (didn't know better). One coat of primer, one coat of paint. A few years later it got a little wobbly, some of the nails rusted, others started working their way out. Eventually the bottom rim rotted a little, and it went to the burn pile.

Every box I've ever assembled since I've used glue.

I have had boxes I purchased from other people fail on me though. Some were made with miter joints with metal splines. Didn't look like too much glue was used, although some. They didn't last long. Some that have failed used rabbit joints with 3 nails from the long board into the short (looked like 7D nails, but don't know for certain). Stronger than the miter joints, but eventually failed. Rare to find a box joint fail, regardless of nail or screw, as long as it uses glue.

I've had rabbit joints and dado joints on bottom boards, telescoping tops and migratory tops fail that have used staples and brad nails (in a hurry and ran out of regular nails) with glue. Haven't had a rabbit or dado joint with screws and glue fail yet.


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## zhiv9 (Aug 3, 2012)

snl said:


> Let's try this another way. Who had boxes come apart and what did you use to when you made them?


I was using 2" nails (air coil nailer) and glue on all of the finger joints except the smaller/thinner joint next the rabbet for the the frames. If I used the air coil nailer on the small finger it would regularly split, so I tried using 1/4" crown by 1.5" staples for a little. It stopped the splitting, but this joint would often come apart in the first season. Now I put those nails in *by* hand and use the air nailer for the rest.


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## jcolon (Sep 12, 2014)

zhiv9 said:


> Now *I put those nails in my hand* and use the air nailer for the rest.


OUCH!inch:


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

My assembly strategy is focused on reasonable longevity with minimum assembly time, since time is my most scarce commodity.

I use Titebond III and stainless steel ringshank nails driven in with a 3 lb sledge hammer. To save time, I don't paint, but instead leave the wood bare.

With a little practice, one stroke of the sledge hammer fully sinks the nail and pulls the joint tight. Almost as fast as a staple gun, but pulls the joint tight much better. The ringshank nails hold almost as well as screws and take much less time to put in. And, of course, the stainless steel doesn't rust. Most of the strength of the joint is from the glue, which is super strong. Exposed endgrain is sealed when the glue is applied to the fingers before assembly. Kind'a the best of all worlds, IMHO.

Our Colorado climate is pretty dry, so I am hoping the wood will hold up well, despite the lack of paint. At this point, my oldest boxes are a young 4-years old. No problems, yet, but the real test will be how they look in 10 years, etc.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

Shinbone, send us pictures of your thumbnails after you assemble the next batch.!


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

haha! With a 3 lb sledge, there would be no thumbnail.


Actually, the boxes I use come with pre-dilled holes - I can insert the nail and it will stand straight with my fingers nowhere near it when I "swing the big hammer."




.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

shinbone said:


> haha! With a 3 lb sledge, there would be no thumbnail.
> 
> 
> Actually, the boxes I use come with pre-dilled holes - I can insert the nail and it will stand straight with my fingers nowhere near it when I swing the sledge.
> ...


I've never seen a ring shank nail that needed to be driven by a 3 lb. hammer.
What is it a 60 penny nail? any pictures?
stainless steel as well.


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## Cleo C. Hogan Jr (Feb 27, 2010)

Mr.Beeman said:


> BTW, I rabbet, glue and staple with coated staples. No problems yet in over 3 years. .


Mr Beeman.. I doubt you will have any problems. I used rabbet joints for years and years. Did not change over to box joints until about 2004 when I started making the boxes/nucs that I sold bees in. If you can leave the dado on the saw, box joints are about as fast as rabbet joints. If not, it takes too long to get them set, and get them true.

My only problems ever with rabbet joints is if you use bad wood or wood that is not fully cured. If the wood is not cured, occasionally I would get warping in the middle of a deep box, and the warp is stronger than Titebond III and so the box would bow out in the middle. Pull out the nails and glue. With good seasoned wood, you will not get it.

I always say, any joint, to include butt joints (when used with good wood, and a good glue, will outlast the average beekeeper and his next 5 generations.

I too use staples exclusively.

cchoganjr


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

clyderoad said:


> I've never seen a ring shank nail that needed to be driven by a 3 lb. hammer.
> What is it a 60 penny nail? any pictures?
> stainless steel as well.


https://www.fastenerusa.com/nails/s...auge-8d-ring-304-stainless-box-nails-5lb.html


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

why are you driving a 8 penny box nail with a 3 lb. hammer?


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

clyderoad said:


> why are you driving a 8 penny box nail with a 3 lb. hammer?


To save time. I can sink the nail and push the joint together tight with a single swing of the hammer.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

a 22 or 24oz hammer will do that too without the arm fatigue


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## shinbone (Jul 5, 2011)

Good to know. Thanks.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>a 22 or 24oz hammer will do that too without the arm fatigue

Yes, but it doesn't push the sides together quite as tight... I use a dead blow hammer to put the boxes together (in my jig) and then a 1/4" crown stapler to nail them.


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