# oxalic acid dribble



## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Being the straight shooter I am, I would never consider using an unapproved compound in one of my hives. On the other hand, I have a friend who isn’t so proper. My friend applied an oxalic acid dribble to about 15 of his hives yesterday. Afterward he put clean corrugated sheets underneath those with screened bottoms. We stopped by that yard today and pulled sheets from beneath the hives that had screened bottoms. A half a dozen mites here…a few there and I….er… we were beginning to think the whole exercise was a waste until we got to this hive.








Some of the hives had solid bottoms, so we weren’t able to look at those but nine had sbb and this was the only one with a big fallout but my-oh-my did they fall out.


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

Mites will continue to fall for a couple of weeks.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

danno said:


> Mites will continue to fall for a couple of weeks.


Ahhhh...you've had a friend who's done this too.
PS...this was less than twenty four hours....makes me wonder why this hive dropped so many so quickly.


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## jrbbees (Apr 4, 2010)

From this which do you think is more effective? Dribble or sublimate OA?


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## DC Bees (Sep 24, 2009)

It's a shame the mites can't live in harmony with the bees instead they choose to over run them.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jrbbees said:


> From this which do you think is more effective? Dribble or sublimate OA?


I really don't have an opinion. I've managed to get by with a single, late summer/early fall treatment using a thymol product. But then, last spring my mite loads exploded....and by the time I realized it, the flow was on and there wasn't anything to do. I ended up doing a post harvest, hopguard summer treatment that I didn't complete because of the heat. 
So this year I ....my friend decided to be proactive...in case this winter ends up as mild as last. 
And to answer your question....this is my friend's first experience using oxalic acid. He plans to apply it to his remaining hives over the next couple of weeks. Since his hives are broodless...or nearly so....the dribble method looked good.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

Give the mites another 50 years they'll learn



DC Bees said:


> It's a shame the mites can't live in harmony with the bees instead they choose to over run them.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

My friend likes to split a big double and flip the top box upside down and trickle down through the bottom bars and then between the top bars in the lower box. I'm sure he said he uses a 3.2% solution. Boy are his bees looking good right now. Darn if his name dosent escape me at the moment.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> . I'm sure he said he uses a 3.2% solution.


My friend used the same concentration....what a coincidence. On his double deeps he removed the top, trickled the bees below, returned the top and trickled those above. 
His hives are lookin' pretty good too......


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## Rube63 (Jun 28, 2010)

Could you please give a little more detail on the dribble process.


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## stoffel64 (Sep 23, 2010)

Go to Randy Olivers Web Page: Scientific Beekeeping


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Rube63 said:


> Could you please give a little more detail on the dribble process.


Here's a pretty good writeup on oxalic acid for varroa.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxalic-acid-questions-answers-and-more-questions-part-1-of-2-parts/


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

dan, interesting you are not seeing any brood yet. i have one hive brooding for sure, and was thinking some of the rest are too. i'm a good bit north of you up in northeast al.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

ps: tell your your friend that was a pretty impressive drop on the one hive.


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

beemandan said:


> I've managed to get by with a single, late summer/early fall treatment using a thymol product. But then, last spring my mite loads exploded.....


How long did you use the thymol? I'm wondering if the mites developed a tolerance for it?


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

My friend has a friend that knows a commercial guy that reccomends treatments of 5 ml per seam no more then 50 ml total once a week for 3 weeks to cover one round of brood.

Why does everyone repeat that this is harmful? 
Does anyone have a friend that does this?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

squarepeg said:


> dan, interesting you are not seeing any brood yet.


I don't doubt that I have some. There's usually a small patch all winter. It is just as little as I'm likely to see.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Mbeck said:


> once a week for 3 weeks to cover one round of brood.


Everything I've read states specifically that 1 treatment per year is the max. The idea for the dribble is to catch them clustered without brood...so all of the mites are phoretic. According to the studies I've read it can drop 90+%...so in theory my friend will go into spring with only a few mites. Fingers are crossed.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

ralittlefield said:


> I'm wondering if the mites developed a tolerance for it?


I don't think resistance is impossible but pretty unlikely. Thymol, as I understand it damages the cuticular surface of the mite's exoskeleton. For them to develop a different surface would require alteration of a substantial number of genes....unlike the synthetics that affect a single neurochemical....requiring an alteration of a single or small set of genes. 
Just my oversimplistic (mis)understanding of it all.


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I've read the only once thing a few times. 
Hives aren't broodless all winter here.


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## Dan. NY (Apr 15, 2011)

Good thread. I have a friend who is really interested in this method as well. He will attempt a treatment in a few weeks, weather permitting if his hive is still alive. He did treat with Formic acid though very late in the season, end of NOV think it was. Would a treatment of oxallic be worth it for him?? Remnants of the formic strip are still in the hive and will be pulled in a few weeks weather permitting. Not sure the oxcallic will do anything??

One thing I gathered from the link is that its easy to screw up. Beemandan... could "your friend" have hit the stream right on the mark and had everything dialed in just perfect for this one hive, resulting in a huge mite drop? And.. maybe the others he was not so on the mark??? Dont know this is possible or not but seems like maybe. Something to think about.

Dan in NY


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Dan. NY said:


> Beemandan... could "your friend" have hit the stream right on the mark and had everything dialed in just perfect for this one hive, resulting in a huge mite drop? And.. maybe the others he was not so on the mark???


I can’t think of anything that would have been different in the application to this hive. It was somewhere near the middle of the process. The same mix, the same applicator…I just can’t imagine anything done that much differently.
My current best guess is that this hive was untreated at the end of the season. It is in a yard where laggards are taken for nurturing. Sometimes, at normal mite treatment times a colony of bees will appear to be unusually weak and my friend will skip its mite treatment. Any treatments (including oxalic acid) are disruptive to the bees and a colony that is already in distress can be easily pushed over the brink by the miticide…in this case it would have been Apiguard. 
So my best guess is that this hive was untreated and its wintertime mite load was dramatically higher than its neighbors. 
After looking at the sheet yesterday, I…..we did a bit more of an inspection. The cluster is quite large and appears vigorous. Having said that, if it was this heavily parasitized its prospects of surviving the remainder of the winter aren’t good….in my opinion.


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## Rye (Sep 21, 2012)

I have a friend..who has a friend who used the cyclone oxalic fogger twice last fall one week apart. Had a good bit of dead mites in a few hives. No mites dropping right now. Will be interesting to see how they look in the spring.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Dan, I think this is a phenomena that happens pretty regularly, I don't know why. My theory (in my situation) is that it is probably a queen that escaped our requeening process in the spring as we do some combining and occassionally end up with a second queen, also perhaps drone drift. In reviewing our testing results from last September I see universally low single digit mite numbers in 24 samples pulled in 4 yards and a single reading in the high teens. These readings are post thymol and pre oxalic. I have seen this for years I no longer find it concerning because it dosent appear to be worsening. I just chalk it up to the impossibility of uniformity in all things beekeeping.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

Oxalic acid dribble is hard on bees. It works only on phoretic mites. You can only do it once during winter or you may not have enough bees in the spring. Need to first dissolve OA in alcohol then add it to sugar water making sure your measurement are perfect then apply the right amount between each frame. If it's cold you could kill your bees with wet sugar water. 

I have oxalic acid vapor as a standby. You can use it at any temp. Any time of the year. It also only works on phoretic mites but you can use it once a week if you need to. It's quicker, don’t need to take hive apart. Just measure 2 grams per double and vaporize. The only down side is the vapor is bad for human and respirator should be used.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpktnn9lZU4

I made a vaporizer out of copper pipe and no fittings, crushed the end and folded it over a few times. Took about 30 min make. 

The best thing is I did not need to use it this year.


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## Maryland Beekeeper (Nov 1, 2012)

Could one run OA through fogger ? oil soluble ?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> Dan, I think this is a phenomena that happens pretty regularly


Yeah Jim, I wasn't too concerned about it but it was a curiosity. My friend made a note and marked the hive...so we shall see if it exhibits any other unusual characteristics.
Beekeeping comes with an unlimited number of lessons....never boring, in my opinion.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Maryland Beekeeper said:


> Could one run OA through fogger ?


Yes


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## Rube63 (Jun 28, 2010)

What is a cyclone oxalic fogger please?


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

Mbeck said:


> My friend has a friend that knows a commercial guy that reccomends treatments of 5 ml per seam no more then 50 ml total once a week for 3 weeks to cover one round of brood.
> 
> Why does everyone repeat that this is harmful?
> Does anyone have a friend that does this?


I got a friend that does the same,3 times a week apart.
Everyone repeats the same old line cause they haven't tried it or didn't do it right.
There are those who think , if a little's good a lot is better, not so with OA

My friend dosen"t tell anyone about is treatment anymore, everone knows it wont work


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Mbeck said:


> Why does everyone repeat that this is harmful?





Flyer Jim said:


> Everyone repeats the same old line cause they haven't tried it or didn't do it right.


Well Mbeck and Flyer Jim…I popped over to Randy O’s website to collect a citation to prove you wrong….and lo and behold…….

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-learning-curve-part-3-the-natural-miticides/

_However, those who can accurately apply the proper dose can obtain good mite control with oxalic dribble either with a single dribble when the colony is broodless, or by three multiple treatments a week apart when the colony contains brood (Sammataro 2008)_


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## alblancher (Mar 3, 2011)

I was reading Randy's articles about Russians, sugar shakes and drone comb before this thread was posted. I guess that is one of the most difficult parts of beekeeping, deciding what to do. Is there any reason not to do both? Can you do a regular sugar shake or fog, check the mite count at the end of the year and then treat with one of the chemicals if over a threshold? Does it come down to the number of hives you have and how much time you can invest.

For that matter should you do a mite count before treating with any of the chemicals?


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

FlowerPlanter said:


> Need to first dissolve OA in alcohol then add it to sugar water making sure your measurement are perfect then apply the right amount between each frame.


FP…my oa crystals dissolved just fine in the sugar syrup…no alcohol needed. And I’d think getting the mixture right would be important no matter how you planned to apply it.



FlowerPlanter said:


> The only down side is the vapor is bad for human and respirator should be used.


 This is surely one downside. Another is the need for extra hardware. And last but surely not least, if you have a couple of dozen (or more) beeyards making one trip to each is a lot simpler and less labor intensive than making three.

As in many things beekeeping…..there is no one size fits all.
I’m glad you like the fogging….for me the one time dribble looks good.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

beemandan said:


> Well Mbeck and Flyer Jim…I popped over to Randy O’s website to collect a citation to prove you wrong….and lo and behold…….
> 
> http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-learning-curve-part-3-the-natural-miticides/
> 
> ...


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## Mbeck (Apr 27, 2011)

I didn't see that, in the previous paragraph he mentions not seeing a lot of bee mortality from multiple treatments. Maybe it's not as hard on bees as some make it out to be. It's an interesting thought for hives that are almost never broodless or broodless for short periods.

I really need to strike words like everyone, always and never from my vocabulary.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Mbeck said:


> I really need to strike words like everyone, always and never from my vocabulary.


Me too....._every_ time I use them, I _always_ end up with my foot in my mouth.


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## johno (Dec 4, 2011)

Guys , I would worry a little about using oxalic acid with a normal oil fogger as there could be a problem with the oxalic acid blocking the fogger nozzle. If this is not the case has anyone done so.
Johno


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

johno said:


> Guys , I would worry a little about using oxalic acid with a normal oil fogger


To be honest the idea of fogging with oxalic acid in general would make me a bit nervous.The very thought of sucking up a lungful or getting some blowbsck in my face....just doesn't appeal to the cautious side of me. If I need a respirator and sealed glasses....I'm likely to skip it.


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## Rolande (Aug 23, 2010)

beemandan said:


> To be honest the idea of fogging with oxalic acid in general would make me a bit nervous.The very thought of sucking up a lungful or getting some blowbsck in my face....just doesn't appeal


With you on that one. No doubt whatsoever that it's highly efficient at knocking down mites but it does demand some respect in preperation and use.


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

I'd bet the acid would wreck the fogger after the 1st use.


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## FlowerPlanter (Aug 3, 2011)

beemandan said:


> FP…my oa crystals dissolved just fine in the sugar syrup…no alcohol needed. And I’d think getting the mixture right would be important no matter how you planned to apply it.
> This is surely one downside. Another is the need for extra hardware. And last but surely not least, if you have a couple of dozen (or more) beeyards making one trip to each is a lot simpler and less labor intensive than making three.
> 
> As in many things beekeeping…..there is no one size fits all.
> I’m glad you like the fogging….for me the one time dribble looks good.


beemandan
You mix the OA right in your sugar water, that’s saves you several steps. How much per gallon? How much sugar water per hive? How much per space between frames? Do you break the boxes apart?

You do need more equipment, a scales to measure grams, a vaporizer, which can be a manufactured on from Canada or a homemade pipe and torch. And a respirator is recommended.

You do not need to treat more if you vaporize. OA only kills phoretic mites weather it's vapor or dribble makes no difference and I believe both treatment methods are at 93%+ mite kill rate. You don’t need to make extra trip to the bee yards. Unless you are treating when there is brood with which ever OA method you used. 

Could treat your hives in less than half the time it would take if to use dribble method? And there is less prep time as well. Watch the video, can you do it quicker, remember he is going slow to make the video. I will let you decide
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpktnn9lZU4





danno said:


> I'd bet the acid would wreck the fogger after the 1st use.


+1


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## GLOCK (Dec 29, 2009)

beemandan said:


> Yes


 beemandan how can you use oa in a fooger?


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

Unless you have 100's of colonies to treat gallons are not nessessary in fact any solution you mix has to be used or dumped. It doesn't keep for long. As for how much I measure with a triple beam scale in grams so no one is going to give you a recipe like one tablespoon to whatever. To apply you need a syringe. 5CC will work fine. A cc and a ml are the same. You apply 5 cc's or ml per seam for total of 50ml.for a double deep. You just need to count out 10 shots of 5. I do not break the doubles apart. This causes to much disruption at the time I do this which is Nov in michigan.


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## Rolande (Aug 23, 2010)

> Could treat your hives in less than half the time it would take if to use dribble method? And there is less prep time as well. Watch the video, can you do it quicker, remember he is going slow to make the video. I will let you decide
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpktnn9lZU4


Take roof off. Take crown board off (if used). Dribble OA -not actually necessary to split boxes. Put crown board back on. Replace roof. Move to next colony.


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

danno, right after they finish brooding the winter bees? double deeps?


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

yes they are broodless


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## squarepeg (Jul 9, 2010)

good plan, thanks.


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## Rye (Sep 21, 2012)

I am not sure that cyclone is the proper name. It has a propane torch that heats up a metal bowl from underneath.Then a 12 volt car blower motor moves air across this bowl as you put the liquid in. It was sold by a supply company for a year or two. I cant find out much about it online.


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

I think the "cyclone" you are talking about was not for oxalic but instead acetic acid or 25%vinegar. They sold a propain model and a 110volt model. I think the company was out of Iowa. They disapeared 6 or 7 years ago. Never caught on or didn't work


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## Rye (Sep 21, 2012)

Danno, Your so right. I am sorry. It was acetic and not oxalic. Did seem to work well. Sorry all to have stuck my foot in my mouth so early in my forum chatting.


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## Flyer Jim (Apr 22, 2004)

danno said:


> Unless you have 100's of colonies to treat gallons are not nessessary in fact any solution you mix has to be used or dumped. It doesn't keep for long. As for how much I measure with a triple beam scale in grams so no one is going to give you a recipe like one tablespoon to whatever. To apply you need a syringe. 5CC will work fine. A cc and a ml are the same. You apply 5 cc's or ml per seam for total of 50ml.for a double deep. You just need to count out 10 shots of 5. I do not break the doubles apart. This causes to much disruption at the time I do this which is Nov in michigan.


danno at most feed stores you can get 30cc syringes for about $1


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Flyer Jim said:


> danno at most feed stores you can get 30cc syringes for about $1


A pack of two 60cc...for 3.29 at Tractor Supply...refill once per hive.
http://www.tractorsupply.com/producer-s-pride-reg-luer-slip-syringe-60cc-capacity-pack-of-2-1019805


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## Tony Rogers (Oct 18, 2012)

I use a spray bottle! I initially purchased a syringe to measure the number of times I had to pull the triger on a given spray bottle until I reached 5 ml. I prefer to pull the frame and spray each side. I will likely play around with a garden sprayer next time.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Tony: I wouldn't feel like you need to actually spray each bee. Think of it more as treating a cluster of bees as if the cluster itself is a living thing and do so at the recommended dosages. The bees readily distribute the oxalic through grooming behavior.


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## Tony Rogers (Oct 18, 2012)

Jim, you make a great point. I hadn't thought of that. This year was my first bad experiance with mites. I had looked for them, but had not test for them and sadly when my hives were at their strongest, the mite population was as well. When the nectar flow stopped, and the queens stopped laying as many eggs in September, my hives went from strong to near devistation. The only way I saved the 22 out of 34 I had was by breaking them down into 4 frame nucs, and blancing hives. Perhaps it was overkill to spray the bees. I was in emergency mode  Thankfully the 22 I have remaining seem to be doing well. I am keeping them between 35-45 degrees with a thermocube and I saved all the comb from the big hives so I think they will take off well. Last year will be the last year that I will go without treating for mites and checking on a regular basis.


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

beemandan said:


> A pack of two 60cc...for 3.29 at Tractor Supply...refill once per hive.
> http://www.tractorsupply.com/producer-s-pride-reg-luer-slip-syringe-60cc-capacity-pack-of-2-1019805


I actually use a 50ml meat pump. I like the needle on it. it doesn't have a hole in the end but instead 4 holes in the sides. Its very strong and twice as long as a syringe


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

danno said:


> I actually use a 50ml meat meat pump.


My friend uses a small hand pump garden sprayer....holds about 2 gallons...I think. He looked at the syringes but decided that it would be a nuisance to keep refilling one.


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## Rolande (Aug 23, 2010)

danno said:


> You apply 5 cc's or ml per seam for total of 50ml.for a double deep. You just need to count out 10 shots of 5. I do not break the doubles apart. This causes to much disruption at the time I do this which is Nov in michigan.


Hi Danno, I never registered this quote previously. Just wondering, are you applying 50ml per hive irrespective of how many seams of bees there are rather than the usual European method of 5ml per seam up to a maximum of 50ml per colony?


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## danno (Dec 17, 2007)

Rolande said:


> Hi Danno, I never registered this quote previously. Just wondering, are you applying 50ml per hive irrespective of how many seams of bees there are rather than the usual European method of 5ml per seam up to a maximum of 50ml per colony?


I do 5ml per seam. The bee's will go through cleaning it up and spreading it around


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## Rolande (Aug 23, 2010)

I was just thinking that someone reading your post who's not used the method previously could assume that there was a standard dose of 50ml per colony irrespective of how many seams of bees they had rather than a maximum recommended dose of 50ml. But I assume that you're applying across the box irrespective of where the cluster is centred. Always interesting to learn how other people are working.


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