# Italians with Carniolans



## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Will Italian queens mate with Carniolan drones and vice versa. Would this be desirable or no? For instance I have a yard with five Italian colonies and ten Carniolan colonies. There's a chance the Italian virgins will mate with other Italians but more likely than not she will breed with Carni's.


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## rkereid (Dec 20, 2009)

They will mate with whichever drones get to them first. It does not matter the lineage. You can raise more drones of whichever line you want, and by doing that, flood the area with the desirable genetics. Then your odds go up. They will also mate with whatever drones come from your neighbor's bees and any ferals around you.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

Is this generally considered desirable or is there a purist mentality where only Italians should breed with Italians etc... etc...?


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## johns bees (Jan 25, 2009)

Italian and crani cross is a good mix IMO. the only way to get a pure breeding is to II with drones a a virgin queen from a known lineage. Just my two cent.
Johns Bees


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

There are various opinions on the matter. In my experience F1 crosses (e.g. a "pure" Italian mated to a "pure" Carniolan) tend to be very defensive bees. But they are all really mutts anyway, so how much of that F1 cross you'll get depends on the degree of purity you are dealing with. But all in all I consider it more likely to cause problems than to solve them.


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## Moon (May 7, 2011)

How is one to be sure their stock is pure then? Not necessarily the offspring but the stock you already have? Are there genetic testing processes readily available or does one need to do DNA sequencing?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Michael Bush said:


> There are various opinions on the matter. In my experience F1 crosses (e.g. a "pure" Italian mated to a "pure" Carniolan) tend to be very defensive bees.


I agree Michael.


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## tefer2 (Sep 13, 2009)

I had both stocks here in my apiaries and the first time cross breed Carniolans are meaner than a junk yard dog. The Italians will rob out the Carniolans hives that are down on population first time they are in a dearth. I learned to keep them in separate locations


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## ralittlefield (Apr 25, 2011)

tefer2 said:


> I learned to keep them in separate locations


Do you regularly requeen, or let them requeen themselves? I would think that if they replaced their queen that you may get another cross bred queen?


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Michael Palmer said:


> I agree Michael.


Hmm... Does this mean it's really just a crap shoot in regards to colony attitude when a small backyard guy raises his queens from his own stock even if his queen is gentle with a good laying pattern? I mean if I have a queen with a heavy dose of carniolan genes and within the horde of drones chasing her she mates with several ferals having heavy Italian genes....would this cause a mutt colony that has a high level of defensiveness? To put it in my simpleton way....will a yeller virgin mating with gray drones (or the reverse) produce a mean colony?

Ed


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>Does this mean it's really just a crap shoot 

All sexual reproduction is a "crap shoot". That is it's purpose.  I've been raising my own queens since I started and have seldom had issues with hot bees. The idea that an F1 cross can be hotter is not new, but you do have to consider that all of them are mutts. But mutts that have been genetically separate being crossed CAN (but not necessarily will) be hot. And you don't know how separate they have been. Big breeder or backyard beekeeper, open mating is a "crap shoot".


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## Fusion_power (Jan 14, 2005)

A first cross of an Italian queen with Carniolan drones will often be defensive, but extremely strong colonies are normal for this cross. 

A first cross of a Carniolan queen with Italian drones gives most of the same traits, but swarming behavior is significantly increased, and Carniolans will already swarm at the drop of a hat.

My point is that the two crosses can't be made either direction with identical results.

If you get a colony that is too hot, requeen them.

The reason selection works is because there are variations to select from. The more diverse the genetics, the more potential for improvement.


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## tefer2 (Sep 13, 2009)

ralittlefield said:


> Do you regularly requeen, or let them requeen themselves? I would think that if they replaced their queen that you may get another cross bred queen?


I requeen the carnies to keep them closer to what I'm after. It's the ones that I don't catch that have a chance to mix with Italians.
Those defensive bee's always seem to make a bunch of honey for me. I try to keep all the half breeds together with the robbers far from my grey bee's


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

What about the second cross? With continued cross-breeding does the defensive behavior abate? I ask because it seems that if other desirable traits become prominent in future crosses, it may be worth tolerating a period of some defensiveness.


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## larrymn (Sep 3, 2011)

you could put entrance guards (the ones that are like a queen excluder that go on the entrance) on the italian hive's so the drones could not get out right? then when the queen goes to mate she would have a higher rate mating with carniolan drones if all the other hives were carniolans right? How long after the queen hatches does she go out and mate?


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Michael Bush said:


> >Does this mean it's really just a crap shoot
> 
> All sexual reproduction is a "crap shoot". That is it's purpose.


 I guess that explains "The People of Walmart".


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## Jaseemtp (Nov 29, 2010)

so what are the thoughts if getting a queen that is 1/2 carni and 1/2 italian? how productive or hot would / could the colony be and would something like possible work in Texas?


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## Vance G (Jan 6, 2011)

I think it is all about averages. I have carnie/italian hybrids and most are kittens but a couple are holy terrors! But when I did an inspection today at fifty degrees of my hottest and most productive hive, I found them still in the bottom box and they had only sipped about 12 pounds of honey the last two months. I was planning on making the whole colony into nucs and offing the queen, but if they continue wintering this well, they may have earned a reprieve. I have not kept carnies in hot weather and cannot speak to how well they would do in Texas, but i suspect they or the hybrids would do fine and they are stingy with stores!


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## thomas (Apr 23, 2006)

I have most of my hives with this mix and have found that most of my hives go thru the winter here with still way too much honey and i have to give the bees empty comb and take out the honey filled ones i like the mix and none of my hives are mean. They will fly up in your face but go back into the hive and i can do what ever and take as long as i want the mix is awesome and i plan on adding some old world carni's and some caucasian into my mix just to see how thing's goes.

THOMAS YANCEY


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## Jaseemtp (Nov 29, 2010)

I ask because there is still lots to learn. Overwintering is great but it does not seem to be that important where I live. I am near Forth Worth and at best our "winter" last 2 months with 2 to 3 weeks where the bees can not fly. What I'm worried about most is our summer, it gets pretty hot and dry and some times we can go months with out rain. The hives I have now are ferel mutts, the queens I bought with a pedigree I think were robbed out by the mutts.


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

Koehnen's sells a hybrid Carniolan. They mate a virgin Carniolan with an Italian drone. I haven't tried these so I can't attest to their temperament. I do use New World Carniolans and find them easy to work with. I read somewhere that they have some Italian in their bloodline.


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## bhfury (Nov 25, 2008)

canoemaker said:


> Koehnen's sells a hybrid Carniolan.


Here a list of open mated Carnie breeders.....

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...6406&spn=37.871007,52.734375&z=3&source=embed


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

At least one of those suppliers open mates with Russian drones.


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## bhfury (Nov 25, 2008)

canoemaker said:


> At least one of those suppliers open mates with Russian drones.


 If they are open mated, there are things that can be done to control the drones. Can it be guaranteed...not likely, so if there are Russian, Italians, AHB, Carnies, mutts, etc in the area....there the daddies All are fine by me, with the exeception of the AHB...


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

The breeder I referenced claims that they have an isolated mating area that is outside the range of any other bees other than their Russians. They bring virgin Italians and Carniolans from distant outyards to breed with their Russian drones. That is important to know for those beekeepers that prefer to stay away from Russian bees, and ones that would like to introduce some of the Russian line into their apiaries.


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## bhfury (Nov 25, 2008)

canoemaker said:


> They bring virgin Italians and Carniolans from distant outyards to breed with their Russian drones. That is important to know for those beekeepers that prefer to stay away from Russian bees, and ones that would like to introduce some of the Russian line into their apiaries.


Hot, hot, hot, run you out of yard crosses!!


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## canoemaker (Feb 19, 2011)

bhfury said:


> Hot, hot, hot, run you out of yard crosses!!


That's why I prefer to stay with NWC, VSH, and Italians, although there are those who claim that the defensive nature of Russians is overstated. Some swear by them...others swear at them!


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