# Pollen sub & what's really in it



## BEES4U

*Pollen sub*

:thumbsup:Thank you for the information!
We are considering making our own patties or going to another source.
What were the lab fees for the testing?
Good research on pollen patties is not easily obtained and here you provide it at no cost.

Regards,
Ernie Lucas Apiaries


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## alpha6

We make all our own. The ingredients are better, fresher and I know exactly what is in them. Bees seem to take them well...so well they take the winter off...go figure...just like some beeks I know.


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## Fishdude123

If your not selling them would you mind sharing your recipe?


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## Keith Jarrett

alpha6 said:


> We make all our own. The ingredients are better, fresher .


Alpha, how do you know this? How much protein, fat is in your patty?


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## Keith Jarrett

Fishdude123 said:


> If your not selling them would you mind sharing your recipe?


Fish,
I sell it in bulk, Calif location only.


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## Fishdude123

Darn, doesn't help me in the least. I am too small and far away!


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## alpha6

Keith, I/we utilize the Kjeldahl Nitrogen assay to determine percentages of protein. :doh:


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## Hambone

Keith Jarrett said:


> Hold on.... OK, go ahead, I'm under the bus now .


LOL.. Have you not gotten out from under that bus yet?


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## apizap

*pollen supplement*

thanx for bringing up this topic. feedbee has been doing a big promotion campaign down here in new zealand and i am into my 2nd year of using it. nonetheless i am struggling to see results better than my home brewed soya flour based patties of days gone by.

the feedbee people are very elusive about the actual composition of their product. can someone please elaborate. afterall i'd like to be able to make an "informed" choice.

cheers,


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## Trevor Mansell

Keith , where do you send off your patties to get tested?


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## Keith Jarrett

Trevor Mansell said:


> Keith , where do you send off your patties to get tested?


www.Silliker.com


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## Keith Jarrett

Derek1 said:


> LOL.. Have you not gotten out from under that bus yet?


NO... Still waiting for Bjorn & Chef Isaac. I don't know what there doing..... They should have that 50 cal loaded by now.


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## TwT

was Megabee one of those tested?


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## Tom G. Laury

*I don't get it*

Why is Keith getting his panties tested?


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## BEES4U

*I don't get it*

:scratchid you mean patties?
Ernie


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## Tom G. Laury

*Oh*

Yeah, now I see...PATTIES. Thanks Ernie Sorry Keith I tried to stop myself but the fingers wouldn't listen.


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## odfrank

*Which one for the small beekeeper?*

From your tests, can you recommend one brand or another for us small beekeepers buying retail?
My panties are in a bunch until I find out....


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## Keith Jarrett

TwT said:


> was Megabee one of those tested?


Yes.


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## Trevor Mansell

So how did Megabee make out when compared to yours?


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## Keith Jarrett

Trevor Mansell said:


> So how did Megabee make out when compared to yours?


Trevor,

Megabee was the only one that surpassed my own patty in the protein by 1.25%.

On the fat profile... Keith's came in at 9.04% & Megabee came in at 1.09%.

Only MegaBee had me beat by 1.25% in protein, other than that I beat all of them on the protein & Fat profiles. 

Trevor, I'm working on the 1.25%.


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## high rate of speed

Come on Louie,you now all of your fans out here on bee source are sitting back with a pen and a piece of paper.:waiting::waiting:lol.


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## Keith Jarrett

Well heck... I was hoping a pen & Check Book.


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## BEES4U

*Whey Protein 80% or 90%*

Kieth, 
Here is a suggestion to bump your protein up:
*Whey Protein 80% or 90% *

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I need some thoughts on the whey protein as a constiuent of my pollen patties.
it seems to be a good high quality nutritional item.

http://www.bulkfoods.com/health.asp?referrer=goobreyea

http://www.bulkfoods.com/whey_protein_concentrate.htm

I have been trying to locate a source for Torula yeast even though it's expensive.
Regards,
Ernie Lucas Apiaries


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## RDY-B

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/pollenpatties.htm  RDY-B


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## Keith Jarrett

BEES4U said:


> Kieth,
> Here is a suggestion to bump your protein up:
> *Whey Protein 80% or 90% *
> Ernie Lucas Apiaries


Thanks Ernie,

The problem with this is you have a narrow range, ie, profile with 80 or 90% of a product.

I try to use no less than three or four products to obtain a certain group.

Take protein or fat, if you had only one or two protein ingredients what would your amino acid profile look like... compare to a four ingredient protein profile.

It's like a mono crop pollen vs a variety of pollen crops.


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## RDY-B

BEES4U said:


> I have been trying to locate a source for Torula yeast even though it's expensive.


talk to these guys about torula yeast http://www.calspraydry.com/Index01.htm RDY-B


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## Trevor Mansell

Keith Jarrett said:


> Trevor,
> 
> Megabee was the only one that surpassed my own patty in the protein by 1.25%.


Without asking your formula , what do you use for protein?


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## TwT

Keith Jarrett said:


> On the fat profile... Keith's came in at 9.04% & Megabee came in at 1.09%.
> 
> Only MegaBee had me beat by 1.25% in protein, other than that I beat all of them on the protein & Fat profiles.



I can see it now, with all that fat Keith will be the first beekeeper to have to add Lipitor to his mix


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## BEES4U

*Formulating Rations With the Pearson Square*

This may be of some help.
Last summer I found a web site that was set up with an excel spread sheet with math formulas for calculating the ingredients in pollen patties. I don't know if it was your material.
Formulating Rations With the Pearson Square

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/PUBS/LIVESTK/01618.html

http://prechel.net/formula/pearson.htm
Ernie


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## BEES4U

*38% To 39%*

http://www.prechel.net/formula/pearson.htm

1952.380 pounds of a 38% ration can be moved up to 39% by adding 47.61 pounds of an 80% protein source for a total of 2,000 pounds.

or, 97.619 pounds + 2.38 = 100 pounds

Now we have the problem of making a homogenous mixture.
Well, it was a :scratch:.
Ernie


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## stangardener

odfrank said:


> From your tests, can you recommend one brand or another for us small beekeepers buying retail?
> My panties are in a bunch until I find out....


i'm buying bee-pro in fifty # bags from mann lake. i chose them because they are the closest outlet and i'm in there twice a year. i add some collected pollen, hbh and canola oil.
my bees aren't in a feed lot so they aren't depending on the patties and hopefully just getting stimulated and fat.
i do trap pollen in the spring and sell it for $20 a pound so giveing them the supplement at $1 a pound seems fair on my end.


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## Keith Jarrett

I have been trying to locate a source for Torula yeast even though it's expensive.
Regards,
Ernie Lucas Apiaries[/QUOTE]



Ernie,

Allen Dick knows where to find Torula.
www.honeybeeworld.com


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## Keith Jarrett

Ernie,

Here's a couple pics, the small short barrel is the #200 size that I sell. 

Two thousand pounds is whats on the truck, a days work for one man.The cart is use to get the product to the hives,back up the cart to the truck bed,dump the product on the cart and pull it to the hives.

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2451.jpg

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2452.jpg

Tomarrow I hope to talk my wife into taking pic's for you guys so you can see how easy it works. 

Keith


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## Keith Jarrett

Ok, one last round of pics.

This first group is unloading from tubs to cart, This BTW, all took less than three minutes!

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2454.jpg

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2456.jpg

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2460.jpg

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2463.jpg

So then you have the product at the hives, powder the sub, which is underneath the cart, chop to size amount & get-er-done.

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2474.jpg

If you go the bottom method, #2000 a day, if you crack your down somewhere around #1250.


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## high rate of speed

Great pics Keith,even with a crew that cart would save alot of muscles.


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## swarm_trapper

hey keith when feeding that much pollen do you get SHB problems? do you treat for them? Nick


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## Keith Jarrett

Nick,

We don't have that problem here. Gee, did I just say that......

I have never seen a SHB so maybe someone else could chime in as I'm not the right keeper to answer that question.


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## Tom G. Laury

*Keith*

Dawg:

What you do with those three stories? Feed em up and pull a box of bees and brood in Feb? Good for you if you do. Wish I was still that young!


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## Keith Jarrett

Well, in late January I try to make sure they can pass the four frame minimun. 

http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_1431.jpg


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## Tom G. Laury

*4 frame minimum*

Ahhh, that looks good!


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## Keith Jarrett

How many that go to the almonds are feeding pollen sub now?? Anybody?


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## Barry

A new article by your friend:

http://beesource.com/pov/traynor/pnpdec2008.htm


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## Keith Jarrett

Thanks for sharing Barry,

Maybe I can shed this (pollen sub fool) image.  lol


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## odfrank

*My bees don't agree....*

"Both beekeepers and researchers now believe that proper nutrition is one of the best defenses against CCD."

My bees here in San Mateo Suburban Honeybee Heaven fly daily, have several big wintertime pollen and honey flows going year round, and I have suffered 50% loses during winter for several years (after getting Austrailian queens). It is not nutrition related here.

My bees are on trailers with enclosed sides, surrounded by asphalt, so my dead bees don't disappear in the grass. I see huge piles of dying bees, mostly young bees with deformed wings. After rains they stumble out by the hundreds. If my bees were not in a winter honey wonderland, these die offs would finish the hives, and does slowly kill off some, leaving some powerhouses untouched (new starts). I don't feel that the colonies "collapse", or "disappear" or fly away, I think they just dwindle off fast and the commercial beekeepers don't see it clearly because the dead bees are hidden by grass. 

I seem to have had a lot of losses during summer and fall this year. Some hives that had been powerhouses for years, (150 lbs. of crop in June, gone and robbed out in Sept.) and surprisingly, some strong feral swarms.


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## Keith Jarrett

Odfrank, Try rereading Barry's post.


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## Tom G. Laury

*Valley bees*

Joe makes some valid points as usual but there are sources of fall pollen here. Small drops say 48 colonies in a location with fresh water and autumn bloom can do just fine. In my experience, summer pollination or staying in irrigated ( sprayed ) crops are the things to avoid if you want better strength for almonds.


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## loggermike

We feed most hives in Sept and October with sub.Some yards traditionally have a good mix of fall pollen and will be good to go on their own. 
Then starting again in early January ALL get fed sub while going through and checking hives.


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## tecumseh

odfrank writes:
My bees here in San Mateo Suburban Honeybee Heaven fly daily, have several big wintertime pollen and honey flows going year round, and I have suffered 50% loses during winter for several years (after getting Austrailian queens). It is not nutrition related here.

tecumseh:
unless you trapped a bit of pollen continously and had this analysized you can never be absolutely certain the QUALITY of the pollen that the bees might collect.

the report on pollen from australia (can't remember the article's name... fatbee/skinny bee or something like that???) was a bit 'oh wow' for me when you scanned thru the table (spread sheet) of the analysis on various pollens. some sources were not much better than cardboard as a protein source.

question for keith...
did you perhaps have you pollen supplement/substitute (I am not certain how you might classify your own product?) analysized for amino acid content?


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## Keith Jarrett

tecumseh said:


> question for keith...
> did you perhaps have you pollen supplement/substitute (I am not certain how you might classify your own product?) analysized for amino acid content?


Big T, thats a good question.

YES, I have had it analysized for the full break down of amino acid profile.

Also big T, I use four different protein sources in my sub so to get a well balanced amino acid profile this also goes with the fatty acids as well. It's just like bee pollen, the more diverse the better.


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## odfrank

tecumseh said:


> unless you trapped a bit of pollen continuously and had this analyzed you can never be absolutely certain the QUALITY of the pollen that the bees might collect. some sources were not much better than cardboard as a protein source.
> 
> I have kept bees here for 39 years. My bees thrived until the mites came around. Are you proposing that the nutritional qualities of the local pollen coincidentally deteriorated at the same time CCD showed up and is the cause?


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## mudlake

Think I understand?? I read the Australia report on pollen. Cardboard would have been better. Some of the pollen will keep the bees going with no stress but with stress of the little critters just not enough food. As far as pollen subs. ck them out it is buyer beware . When you find a good pollen sub. please post We only have 4 months that they can collect pollen a nice pollen sub would help me a lot. Thanks Tony


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## high rate of speed

CCd ya that is what it is.


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## odfrank

*Austrailian article*

Any links to this Australian pollen article?


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## tecumseh

keith writes:
I use four different protein sources

tecumseh:
may I assume that the same lab did the amino acid analysis?

yep... look like your daddy taught you well in regards to animal nutrition, amino acids and the more the merrier regime of things.

you know keith (this is a question) I have been making up a bit of my own pollen supplement and I don't think I would be so opposed to buy some similar product from a commercial source if I had some idea of how much of the cheapest ingredient (sugar or hfcs) was included in the price???? I hate the idea of thinking I am buying a caddy and drinve about in just another darned old chevy.


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## Keith Jarrett

tecumseh said:


> tecumseh:
> may I assume that the same lab did the amino acid analysis?
> .


Big T, www.silliker.com does mine, they do a excellent job and they have locations all over the U.S. & world.

It doesn't cost that much to have your sub done and it will let you know where to make improvments on your receipe.


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## stangardener

tecumpseh says:
you know keith (this is a question) I have been making up a bit of my own pollen supplement and I don't think I would be so opposed to buy some similar product from a commercial source if I had some idea of how much of the cheapest ingredient (sugar or hfcs) was included in the price???? I hate the idea of thinking I am buying a caddy and drinve about in just another darned old chevy.[/QUOTE]

stoneguarder says:
i'm in agreement with not wanting to pay a high price for sugar. i have the same concern about buying water in premade patties. if i had to guess i'd say at least half the weight of one of my patties is the sugar water i added.


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## Keith Jarrett

stangardener said:


> stoneguarder says:
> i'm in agreement with not wanting to pay a high price for sugar. i have the same concern about buying water in premade patties. if i had to guess i'd say at least half the weight of one of my patties is the sugar water i added.



I would say your correct 50/50 or very close. But remember, some Items cost 3-4 dollars per pound that goes into sub.

I had one other note, do you spell it Stangarener or Stoneguarder


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## Allen Dick

tecumseh said:


> odfrank writes:
> My bees here in San Mateo Suburban Honeybee Heaven fly daily, have several big wintertime pollen and honey flows going year round, and I have suffered 50% loses during winter for several years (after getting Austrailian queens). It is not nutrition related here.


Frank Eishen presented a study a year or two ago showing that the Australian bees he was observing -- as I recall -- collected a much more diverse selection of pollen than the US stocks in the same apiary. Perhaps they are getting something that your previous bees did not collect?


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## Allen Dick

> you know keith (this is a question) I have been making up a bit of my own pollen supplement and I don't think I would be so opposed to buy some similar product from a commercial source if I had some idea of how much of the cheapest ingredient (sugar or hfcs) was included in the price???? I hate the idea of thinking I am buying a caddy and drinve about in just another darned old chevy.





> i'm in agreement with not wanting to pay a high price for sugar. i have the same concern about buying water in premade patties. if i had to guess i'd say at least half the weight of one of my patties is the sugar water i added.


There are a number of considerations when considering buying commercial patties.

Generally, if buying from a big, established supplier, and direct from the factory, you can assume that they have sourced the freshest possible ingredients and that you are getting the product direct from production. Fresh is important. They also make their money partially by buying in bulk and saving on freight and handling, plus mechanization, so the cost to a beekeeper is often less than making them at home, if all the travel, set-up, management, wasteage, etc. are considered. Moreover, it is possible to obtain the exact amount needed, with nothing left over. Leftover material deteriorates if not used within a few months.

On the other hand, with some suppliers, you really have no clear idea what goes into the patties, and you are staking your crop on the belief that they are not using an ingredient that the FDA would not like or which might break down into something that could get your crop condemned. I am suspicious of any company that uses secret ingredients or will not reveal the ingredients. You have a right to know what you are feeding IMO.

As for paying for sugar and water, that annoys most of us, but sometimes the other efficiencies, convenience, and lack of wasteage compensate. If time is worth nothing and the bees don't require attention, and your time is not more valuable as a beekeeper than as a laborer, then making patties can make sense.

Moreover, the format of some commercial patties is such that you could apply them wearing a business suit and not get messy. These patties can be moved around on the top bars, too, so you can move them from hive to hive or to one side when checking queens, and we all know that feeding patties is a great diagnostic. Hives that eat are OK. Hives that don't need attention.


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## Keith Jarrett

Barry said:


> Will this be round two or three?:lookout:


One more Barry. 

This is the pay day for feeding sub on the left coast.

Making up nucs before we move into the almonds, each nucs get four frames of brood like this one three honey and a new 
queen.http://s148.photobucket.com/albums/s35/CNHoney/?action=view&current=100_2857.jpg

Yea, she's a little spottie, but that's and avg brood frame for late January.


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## Allen Dick

That's the truth. At http://honeybeeworld.com/misc/pollen/default.htm is a picture provided by Andy Nachbauer many years ago. The formula, as I recall was just yeast and sugar and water. Feeding pays, but it has to be done right, and at the right time.



> *And, Finally here's what the OLd Drone had to say in a post to BEE-L... http://honeybeeworld.com/misc/images/pollen1.jpg For a picture of a hive on DEC.15, 1977 started with NO brood, NO honey, NO pollen, just a normal hive in October with normal number of bees and a good queen when all the frames were replaced with empty brood combs and it was fed all the sugar syrup it would consume and a protein diet of yeast products, NO flowers at all and very little flight time, go to http://beenet.com/121577.jpg This hive would eat the average beekeeper out of house and home if he had very too many like it.<G>*​


Unfortunately, the orginal large copy of that picture (linked last) was on Andy's site, which disappeared after his death, in spite of our efforts (Brandis and mine) to save it.​


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## jean-marc

I put some Global patties on a few coloniesthe other day. About 50 hours later when I checked them they were eating away at them. The cool part was they went from being clustered to being active. The bee's behaviour was modified thru nutrition. The patties were the kind with 15% real, albeit chinese pollen.

Jean-Marc


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## Allen Dick

Just to clarify, Global is using _only_ irradiated U.S. pollen in the US. Global bought and used some Chinese pollen in the U.S. at one point, due to misrepresentation by one of their suppliers. Since then, Global has had the USDA check out and approve any suppliers to be certain that the pollen is as advertised.

Transporting pollen for bee feed across borders is a hassle. Although there is lots of U.S. pollen available, Canadian pollen is scarce. So, in Canada, for Canadian purchase only, they employ Chinese pollen. 

However, Global is advertising for and preferentially using Canadian pollen when they can get it.

(I called to confirm this, since it can be a contentious issue, and learned, for those who know Frank, that he had five heart attacks last night and is in hospital. Apparently he is stable).


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## Ian

>>Chinese pollen 

surely Chinese pollen would be alright? Do they test it for impurities?


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## Allen Dick

Well, everyone thought so, but who ever really knows? Tests are expensive and mostly effective when you have a clue what you are looking for. Otherwise the test could be for the wrong things and come up zero when something else is pinning the meter.

Basically, we all go with whetever the general consensus thinks is safe today.

Hate to say this, but, if the US really has a CCD problem (which I doubt) would you not rather have Chinese pollen? After all the Chinese seem to take a ticking and keep on ticking. 

allen
(Ducking and running)


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## Barry Digman

So, can we get a recommendation for purchasing a particular brand of pollen patties? I've never fed them but it doesn't seem like it would hurt, and might help.


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## jean-marc

Yup, they test the chinese pollen. It gets tested in China and may I assume in a fine chinese laboratory. Remarkably the pollen always tests pure, no impurities detected in their pollen, at least that's what the piece of paper that comes with it says.

Mind you I've fed more chinese pollen to my bees than anybody else I know of and I don't think it's a problem.

Jean-Marc


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## Allen Dick

Barry Digman said:


> So, can we get a recommendation for purchasing a particular brand of pollen patties? I've never fed them but it doesn't seem like it would hurt, and might help.


Well, I'm biased, but I think that dollar for dollar, Global is a pretty good supplier. I know they are ethical, and they have no axe to grind. 

They have standard formulas, but will make anything you want. You want BeePro, they'll make BeePro. You want MegaBee? Well, they will make patties out of MegaBee. You want Feedbee? They'll make patties from FeedBee. All assuming that you will buy enough to make it worthwhile sourcing the product and making a run. They try not to keep material on hand, since it can lose feed value fast in storage.

Their business model is to be the low cost supplier. They buy cheap due to volume and sell cheap. Because of their throughput, their ingredients are always fresh. They do a good job. I ask around for complaints and hear none.

Their formulas are public knowledge and their ingredients are all USDA approved in the U.S.

That said, there are others who sell supplements and are trying to promote their proprietary products. Some may reveal the ingredients. Some not. Some may be quite effective, and some may outperform the standard yeast/soy/sugar/pollen formula. Hard to say.

What counts is consistent performance and return on the dollar. Global delivers that. Others may too, but my experience has been with Global. I have been watching the others, though. 

Competition is good.

I'm sure others will comment.


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## Reed Honey

Allend , I have a good friend from North Dakota that purchased 40000 lbs of global this past fall and said the bees wouldnt take it for the most part and the ones that did take it didnt do anything as far as brooding with it. He said that was the biggest mess he ever got into and would NEVER buy that again..


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## Keith Jarrett

allend said:


> Well, I'm biased, but I think that dollar for dollar, Global is a pretty good supplier.


Well here are some stats.


Keith's ( no pollen) "fat" 9.04% protein 16.19% PH 5.97% $ 1.05 lb

global (15% pollen) "fat" 2.37% protein 14.84% PH 5.51% $ ?


You guys draw your own conclusion.


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## Barry Digman

Here's a link to Globals price list. Looks like their protein patties are $0.95/lb. They also offer pollen patties.

http://globalpatties.com/orders/order_us.htm


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## Sundance

Reed Honey said:


> Allend , I have a good friend from North Dakota that purchased 40000 lbs of global this past fall and said the bees wouldnt take it for the most part and the ones that did take it didnt do anything as far as brooding with it. He said that was the biggest mess he ever got into and would NEVER buy that again..


I'll second that........... I bought 2 cases a couple
years ago and still have a case and 1/2.

Messy, bees not wild about it, and did I mention
messy?


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## BEES4U

*Its the fat?*

Keith's ( no pollen) "fat" 9.04% protein 16.19% PH 5.97% $ 1.05 lb

global (15% pollen) "fat" 2.37% protein 14.84% PH 5.51% $ ?

Humm.
There is a difference in fat %
There could be a difference in the lipid sources too.

Ernie


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## Allen Dick

> Allend , I have a good friend from North Dakota that purchased 40000 lbs of global this past fall and said the bees wouldnt take it for the most part and the ones that did take it didnt do anything as far as brooding with it. He said that was the biggest mess he ever got into and would NEVER buy that again..


Thanks for the report. That does not sound at all typical. In fact it sounds like baloney. Not saying it is, but if that is the case, the reasons need to be known.

Did he mention it to Global? AFAIK, they are unaware of any such problems, and they do stand behind their product. 

Nobody benefits if a buyer is unhappy and does not inform the supplier, and arrange to set the situation right. 

If there is a problem, the supplier needs to know, and know immediately. Conditions in transport and in the field are variable and sometimes unpredictable. and if not reported, no corrections can be made. 

I know also that there was pressure from some buyers some time back to make the patties softer, because those beekeepers wanted to squish them, and that there were some changes made in response to that request, but the idea was not good. Patties have to be firm, and not squish.

Global is not some monolithic giant faceless manufacturer. Global is a small family operation that does what customers want and makes products to customer specs. Not everyone wants the same thing, and any formula that is legal can be made to order. In truckload lots, like that, the formula and consistency is something that should be agreed between buyer and seller. If the customer orders a standard product, hopefully he or she knows what he or she is ordering, and if it does not arrive as expected, then it is the customer's responsibility to notify the supplier and work something out.

Dunno. At any rate the answer is to report problems immediately rather than grouse.

Global has been asking people if they are happy. They attend conventions across the US and Canada and talk to people to make sure that their products are what people want. Everyone seems happy when asked. 

If a buyers are not happy, then they should write [email protected] immediately and explain the problem, or phone 866-948-6084 and talk about it. That way everyone benefits.

Of course competitors are not likely to ever be happy, because Global has driven the price down and raised the bar for everyone and reduced the profit margins. 

Competitors are likely to continue to be unhappy, and do what they can to discredit Global, because that process of lowering cost and inproving performance will continue at Global, especially with the help of customer feedback.

---
One other thing I should mention. I test Global patties for them myself from time to time and do not see what is described. I did see some pretty soft ones one time when I went to visit Jean-Marc. Those were from the softer patty experiment, and they were sticky. AFAIK, that was a one-time thing.


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## JohnK and Sheri

allend said:


> ....That does not sound at all typical. In fact it sounds like baloney. Not saying it is, but if that is the case, the reasons need to known.


I agree with Allen on this one. We have used Globals several times and while they ARE a big mess, our bees love them. In our experience, if the patties are put *between the boxes of healthy hives*, they eat them right up and turn them into brood. Sick bees, small queenless colonies or bees tightly clustered in the deep freeze aren't interested in eating much of anything. 
Sheri


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## Ian

>>Yup, they test the chinese pollen. It gets tested in China and may I assume in a fine chinese laboratory. Remarkably the pollen always tests pure, no impurities detected in their pollen, at least that's what the piece of paper that comes with it says.
Mind you I've fed more chinese pollen to my bees than anybody else I know of and I don't think it's a problem.

Thats what I needed to know, thanks!


>>global this past fall and said the bees wouldnt take 

When I do use patties, I tend to use global. I have never had problems with them not eating the patties. Infact, most of my hives take them in about a week,
My smaller hives didnt take them as fast, some not at all. But what would a beekeeper expect?


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## Allen Dick

> Keith's ( no pollen) "fat" 9.04% protein 16.19% PH 5.97% $ 1.05 lb
> global (15% pollen) "fat" 2.37% protein 14.84% PH 5.51% $ ?


Well, I wonder how anyone could claim to know the constituents to the second decimal place. I know I would have trouble pinning it to the nearest percent. The simple reason is that the suppliers of the ingredients only publish a typical analysis, and there are some variations in the mixing.

I'm assuming you are generating the numbers for your best guess for Global, since Global does not AFAIK publish any claims. If that is true, then even one decimal place would be a stretch. 

Not only that, small differences in specifications mean little, since there are so many complexities in the combination of the various amino acids and lipids. Age of the components also has a huge effect on some essential components. Moreover, there may be some interaction between components, and the bioavailability of the nutrients is unknown.

Consumption rates and many other factors determine the end result.



> You guys draw your own conclusion.


My conclusion is that numbers like that cannot anything much to anyone who knows much about feeds, in the absence of other data.

Although I understand the use of theory to choose ingredients and proportions while designing a new diet attempt, I would never base any conclusions on theory.

I would base my conclusions on the results of independant field tests anf factors like cost to me (not list), format, convenience, freshness, guarantees, availability, and such.

We have lots of good choices out there. There are only a few bad ones.


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## K&L HONEY

*Keiths numbers*

I have a copy of the analytical result from a sample of Keiths pollen sub and the numbers Keith gave for his are the same thats how he gets to the second decimal place for his.


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## Allen Dick

Thanks. That's interesting. 

I wonder how many tests they did and how accurate the results are claimed to be -- and the standard error. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_error_(statistics)

I'll bet they never get the same result twice. No matter. Total protein and lipids is not what counts, but rather the matching of the amino acid profile to the needs of the bees in question, digestibility, etc. http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/MEETING/004/M2836E/M2836E00.HTM. With lipids, it is a matter of having the right ones and not reaching toxic deleterious levels of any one lipid more than trying for high levels.

Theory and numbers mean only so much. I know of one diet that was designed at a university with input by an insect diet specialist. I assume that the number were perfect. The bees did eat it, however that product, in spite of the hype, proved to be the worst in the group when field tested.

These topics are complex and what counts is results for the dollar and the bother.

Talking numbers like this is like talking torque and horsepower in cars. These numbers may make a difference on the road, or they may not, but as long as they are adequate, most people don't care and are more interested in comfort, looks, mileage, durability, etc.

As I say, most of the products out there fall pretty close together in results, with only a few that are bad value.

For thise really intent on down and dirty details, there is an ongoing discussion on the honeybeeworld list. All I know for sure is that nobody knows much.


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## Keith Jarrett

allend said:


> Patties have to be firm, and not squish.
> .


Well, this is where I strongly disagree.

My patties are soft & they squish, This is a huge labor savings by being able to put 4-7 pound patties on at once, also, you can hit the heat ring cluster with a soft 5 pound patty but you can't do this with a five one pound square patties.

Now, if you have ten hives in the back yard the square patties are a perfect way to go, but if your like me with thousands of hives the soft patty is the only way to travel.

I can put on 1500 pounds of soft patties by myself a day, know fuss no muss.

The hard square patties are made for pallets & shipping, not for the commercial keeper in the field.

P.S. the avg hive goes threw 75-100 of pollen a year, and that at 26% protein so you guys do the math.


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## Allen Dick

Well, Keith, we all know you are promoting your patties and that you think you are right about everything, Maybe you are and maybe you are not. 

My goal is try to bring a little balance to the discussion and point out that there are options. 

All I can say is that you must be making a ton of money on patties, or desperate, to be pushing so hard.

You know, you write me or ask me about suppliers, and I tell you everything I know. 

I tell you and everyone who asks exactly what is in the feed I use and recommend. 

Do you do the same for me and others?


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## Keith Jarrett

Allen, my last post,I said if you have hives in your back yard the one pound squares are the way to go.

I have spoken many times what's in pollen sub, rather it be egg yolk, canola oil ect...

Just ask Randy Oliver, many of his reconmendation on his web site have come threw me.


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## irwin harlton

*kEITH is not about to give out his receipe*

. "We make a living by what we get, but we make a life by what we give. " Winston
Churhill 



you gotta give till it hurts


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## Allen Dick

> Allen, my last post,I said if you have hives in your back yard the one pound squares are the way to go.


OK. That is called ****ing by faint praise.

Maybe you run up to 4.500 hives like I used to and are quailfied to make that judgement. Maybe not. 

I used the smaller patties and found them perfect. I've mentioned the advantages before. I would not use your method, personally, but understand that you and lots of others find it works for you. 

I just get tired of your boosting your stuff at every opportunity and knocking other good products.

Each person has to decide for him or herself.


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## Keith Jarrett

allend said:


> I just get tired of your boosting your stuff at every opportunity and knocking other good products.
> .



Well Allen, your post #82 fits that bill.

As far as knocking other products... where have I strayed from the truth?


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## Allen Dick

> Well Allen, your post #82 fits that bill.


How so? The question was asked and I answered it directly with my opinion, based on decades of experience as a consumer of patties and stated a bias. On the other hand, you interjected your ads and knew you were doing it, since you addressed the moderator and begged forebearance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Barry Digman*  
_So, can we get a recommendation for purchasing a particular brand of pollen patties? I've never fed them but it doesn't seem like it would hurt, and might help._

I said:


> Well, I'm biased, but I think that dollar for dollar, Global is a pretty good supplier. I know they are ethical, and they have no axe to grind.


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## Keith Jarrett

allend said:


> How so? The question was asked and I answered it directly with my opinion, :


Yes allen, you answer with a opinion fair enough, BUT, when I have a opinion, as your last post says, you say I'm tooting my horn.

I have never accused anybody here of tooting there horn.

I have also stated facts & stats as to why I believe what I do.


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## Allen Dick

OK. I think I've said my piece. Are we done?


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## Keith Jarrett

Fair enough.

Have a good night, there two minute left in the game.


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## Allen Dick

*The Ninth Commandment*



> Allend , I have a good friend from North Dakota that purchased 40000 lbs of global this past fall and said the bees wouldnt take it for the most part and the ones that did take it didnt do anything as far as brooding with it. He said that was the biggest mess he ever got into and would NEVER buy that again..


This report sounded so false and unlike everything I know about how Global does business, that I had to check it out. 

I talked to Mike this morning and he says the person in question did not order forty thousand pounds, he ordered about twenty. 

That was (as I guessed) about the time that some beekeepers were demanding softer patties and for whatever reason, that is what he got. 

He had problems with the goo, so he called Mike, and Mike gave him a discount to compensate for his trouble.

I gather that he was happy, because he has since ordered more from Global.

[edit by mod]


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## Reed Honey

Allend, your name fits you well, I know the truth as the person in question is my neighbor in the winter and me and him have since shared the next two semi loads of home made patty.. I will not waste any more time with topics that you start I have way to much truth to share to help this industry in need unlike you.. Kenny


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## Allen Dick

I notice that the writer does not dispute what Global told me.


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## Allen Dick

*The Rest of the Story*

I realise that some wish to make things simpler than they are, but things are seldom cut and dried. 

People may use both home-made supplements and commercial patties to suit conditions. For smart beekeepers, it does not have to be one or the other all the time.

Sometimes, a mix dumped on the top bars and made in your own shop in slack times makes sense and _might_ save some money. At other times, when the workload is heavy and the bees are far from home, buying pre-mixed supplement makes more sense. Proximity is a factor.

A loose mix can work well, but if the texture is wrong, it can drip and kill brood. Patties don't do that if made right.

If you are not working the broods, supplement can be dumped or smeared on and that is not a problem, but when the frames are being pulled, patties are better because they can be moved around without mess.

If you have hired help, that may affect what you decide.

In my opinion, there is and always will be a choice. That is how it should be. The choice that is made may vary from day to day, season to season, and location to location. 

---

I was about to write out the rest of the story, but I like facts, not generalities and I am having problems matching the details. 

Apparently Nebraska, North Dakota and Texas figure into the story that Global knows about. The writer claimed the "good friend" was from North Dakota. The buyer Global dealt with is from Nebraska. Is the original writer confused? Or is there another unhappy customer out there who never complained. 

If so, he should have complained. Global made a generous settlement with the one they know about. He was offered his money back, but he chose to pick up 8,600 lbs of patties recently in Texas.


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## high rate of speed

*money spent is money earned*

$ saved is a $ earnned.one empoloyee can mix good sub for less than the proposed sugar patties take your choice a caddy or a vw.


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## Allen Dick

Exactly. Everybody is different and circumstances can change. Good employees are hard to find, and when we did find them, we had more productive jobs for them. The guys we put on patties were slow and made mistakes. Plus we never had the right amount of everything. Always too much of one ingredient and not enough of another. Plus we did not trust our suppliers to have fresh stuff. Sometimes we learned the yeast or soy had been in their warehouse for a year or they did not know. I was glad to offload the job to trustworthy people and have some time off. 

Probably other beekeepers are luckier or better managers that us. Hope so.

Also, I have to admit, it is easy to mix up the gunk, although sometimes it may be too thin and other times too thick if you are not at it all the time. 

Making patties is much harder to do right. Up here we all use patties because we work the broods around the same time we are feeding and need easy access. Weeks or a month later there are three to five supers on top and brood chamber work is out of the question.

I appreciate all the comments, without exception and hope that it is evident that no one size fits all. We've been working on this for a decade or more and by sharing, everyone benefits.


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