# My two weeks with Michael Palmer



## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

very cool, Im sure that was a great experience. :thumbsup:


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Nice pictures! I've got to put in for my two weeks one of these days. How picky is he in who he allows to visit?


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## Adrian Quiney WI (Sep 14, 2007)

Great, I was wondering how he got those half-sized frames drawn out? I take it those blocks in the middle are for support. Would you mind explaining a little please. Thanks, Adrian.


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## Batman (Jun 7, 2009)

Sounds like fun, can I sign up for 2 weeks next year?


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Hi Adrian,

Those half sized frames are for Mike's mating nucs which are a 10 frame deep body split into four sections. The bar "blocks" allows for versatility/flexibility so that Mike can use his mating nuc frames in his Langstroth length nucs.

How he gets them drawn out specifically are unknown to me, I'd have to defer to him for the answer, but I'd think that it would not be any harder than getting a normal deep frame drawn out.


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Batman said:


> Sounds like fun, can I sign up for 2 weeks next year?


Talk with him, and ask. Mike has a quote that I like: "Good help doesn't cost, it pays." Which means he's grateful for any and all support and help he could get. I think every commercial beekeeper enjoys help, and if you don't get in the way, and actually lighten his load and stress, then that's a good thing.

As for me, the knowledge and learning was tremendous. It was like being a priest in training and getting to spend time studying at the Vatican. I'm a Mike Palmer fan, and it shows, but you get the idea.


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Barry said:


> How picky is he in who he allows to visit?


Barry, I've been keeping bees for only 3 years. While I think I know what I'm doing, I found it very helpful to erase my own predjudices and simply listen to what Mike wanted me to do in his yards. I tried to do exactly what he asked. If someone were working my bees, I'd want them to do the same thing. Mike told me later, that he really enjoyed my company and said I anticipated his moves to be there to help him when he needed it. It was like I could read his mind and know what he needed and when. I know you've been keeping bees longer than I, so your intuition is better too. Translation: Mike said to me, "Good help never costs, it pays." He likes help, but I'd figure he's as picky as you might be in your own yard.


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## arthur (Apr 6, 2008)

Dude ranch equivalent for beekeeping? Maybe there could be a market for that.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

What does he do for queens for those nuc's??


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## StevenG (Mar 27, 2009)

Great pictures! Thanks for sharing!


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Brandy said:


> What does he do for queens for those nuc's??


Not sure I totally understand your question. What does he do with the queens he raises? He sells some and uses others to sustain his beekeeping operation. He is all sold out for 2010. I'm hoping to get some queens from him in 2011.


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## Hambone (Mar 17, 2008)

That's awesome. Great pics and what a great guy to intern for. MP is a great man. Thank You for your service in USAF :thumbsup:


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Congrats on your two weeks with Mike. I picked up 15 four frame nucs from him earlier in the month and they are most all ready for their 2nd deep now. Call me a very happy customer.


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## kathygibson (Nov 3, 2009)

What a fantastic experience! The best way in the world to learn...would love to do something similar myself!

As others have said...thank you for your service to this country.


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## Brandy (Dec 3, 2005)

"What does he do for queens for those nuc's??"

Just wondering what his source for queens in April is. I was curious if he uses his overwintered queens from last year for the nuc's? Is April nice enough to raise his own '10 queens for these nuc's? Or does he bring in outside genetics from other queen producers for these April - May nuc's? Or do the nuc's raise their own queens? Just wondering.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Brandy said:


> "What does he do for queens for those nuc's??"
> 
> Just wondering what his source for queens in April is. I was curious if he uses his overwintered queens from last year for the nuc's? Is April nice enough to raise his own '10 queens for these nuc's?


As I understand it, the idea of a sustainable apiary is to make nucs to overwinter the previous summer using local queens, and those queens become your early Spring queens the next year. Not sure what the timing is in the Northern North East, but even way down here in Virginia, local queens are not available generally until mid May. This year Spring was a little early.


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## KQ6AR (May 13, 2008)

thanks for sharing, I enjoyed it.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

I should jump in here, to answer a few questions. Thanks for the kind words.

Keith...thanks so much for the help. You were able to fit right into the crew and help us get a long job finished on time. All the nucs went out...well 5 more are going out this weekend. Not many 3 year beekeepers who could do that. How'd yer wife like the beard. He, Hee, Heee!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Barry said:


> Nice pictures! I've got to put in for my two weeks one of these days. How picky is he in who he allows to visit?


Depends on who's askin'. Barry the Beekeeper or Barry _The Moderator_


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Adrian Quiney WI said:


> Great, I was wondering how he got those half-sized frames drawn out? I take it those blocks in the middle are for support. Would you mind explaining a little please. Thanks, Adrian.


first time, I cut brood comb on my table saw to fit the frames. Held in frames with support pins. Place in center of broodnest of strong colonies. Harvesed brood and bees when cells were ready.

Now I winter the mating nucs and place empty boxe of mating nuc combs over strong overwintered mating nucs. Bees draw foundation well at Dandelion and queen lay...filling combs with brood.


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Brandy said:


> "What does he do for queens for those nuc's??"
> 
> Just wondering what his source for queens in April is. I was curious if he uses his overwintered queens from last year for the nuc's? Is April nice enough to raise his own '10 queens for these nuc's? Or does he bring in outside genetics from other queen producers for these April - May nuc's? Or do the nuc's raise their own queens? Just wondering.


Winevines is correct. Think of nucs as queens not future production colonies. I raise the queens in July and winter them in nucs. That way, I have a good supply of early spring queens without buying all the BS from southern breeders. This is actually a great place to raise quality queens. Great nutrition out there for the bees during our short summer. Think sustainable beekeeping.


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## Barry (Dec 28, 1999)

Michael Palmer said:


> Depends on who's askin'. Barry the Beekeeper or Barry _The Moderator_


When I visit you, _the moderator_ stays at home. We could talk anyway we want to. :applause:


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Apparently he's not too picky. He let me. I'm not sure we were much help, but we learned a lot and the company was great.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Michael Palmer said:


> That way, I have a good supply of early spring queens without buying all the BS from southern breeders. QUOTE]
> 
> Now, being from the "South" has some pride involved.....lol... May i ask you to elaborate on what you said here. I take no offense because there are some serious idiots here, but, there are some good, decent people trying to do a good job....Is it as bad as you make it sound?


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

devdog108 said:


> Michael Palmer said:
> 
> 
> > That way, I have a good supply of early spring queens without buying all the BS from southern breeders. QUOTE]
> ...


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## Buffalolick (Jan 26, 2010)

I guess you have to quantify "full of varroa and SHB". Then you have to decide if you want treatment free bees or not.

Not claiming to have an answer here..just an observation. People buy southern packages and queens because of timing..IMHO

It's a legitimate marketable advantage...just as locally raised nucs are...you pays yer $ you takes yer chances


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Buffalolick said:


> I guess you have to quantify "full of varroa and SHB". Then you have to decide if you want treatment free bees or not.


I don't think quantifying the recent poor quality from down south would be too difficult. Just count the complaints. Feedback from some of Vermont's student beekeepers this year is tale-telling in itself. Our own club newbies here in Virginia are experiencing problems rather quickly too. For example, one student received a Georgia package, and within one week he had laying workers, documented by his photography (he actually photo'd a worker laying in a cell). It sounds to me that when the package was shaken, those hives had been queenless for some time. And placing a queen with the laying worker package was like fighting a forest fire with a water pistol.

I'm southern born and bred, so I have "pride" too, but the fact remains, if you tally and quantify the complaints of package recipients, many people feel they're getting ripped off. The genetics don't seem to be the priority down south---volume and production is. Debbie Delaney of U of Delaware can attest to the shallow gene pool of Georgia Italians, and even Dann Purvis will tell you that the southern bees are "dead men walking." Just say no to southern packages (until the genetics improve).


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## Robbo (May 11, 2008)

Cool stories nd piccies there - Thats something I would like to visit the states and do in the next few years


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Well, lets not mistake the problems at all. Like I said, I take no offense. I think the demand and timing is outwaying the beeks abilities to provide good bees IMHO. The weather this year made it worse. I, for one, rule for treatment free bees. I have my reasoning, and I am NOT going to debate this with anyone...again. Its been beat to death......so if anyone gets angry, then so be it.....you will be ok. I agree that you need your own survivor stock. I am "really" new the beekeeping so I can't give you an answer, BUT, i can tell you that my bees do have varroa, and they do have a few SHB, but to this point, they have handles it themselves. it is my belief that it will be inevitable Micheal that they make it to you, as they have made it all over thus far. Funny thing.....Ga Ap law says you "have" to treat....so how is it that Ga is providing all of the issues? Are they not enforcing their laws, or are the inspectors buddies? I talked to 2 different package providers that are treatment free...completely, and I have 3 Nucs between them. One has superceded its queen and the others are working hard..but, they told the Inspector that they are treatment free, and have been, and the inspector says nothing. How many of you have seen the strips in your packages or Nucs coming from ga, because according to Ga law, they are to have them in you package or Nuc.....If you read around the forums, there seems to be a lot of absconding, superceding, and die-offs all over the US. Beeks, it seems to me, are having a higher failure rate all over. The problem doesn't stem from just the south. How did the south get them? We get a lot of the blame for something that happened to us as well....let's not forget that. And we have to be dang careful not to generalize...


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## Keith Jarrett (Dec 10, 2006)

" Michael's B&B " That's bed & bee's. Hey I see $$$$ new business.
Two day stay $.... four day stay $$ or the whole week $$$$$.

Any how , what a nice heart felt story here.  Sure is nice to read something like this, than the newspaper.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

fatscher said:


> Just say no to southern packages (until the genetics improve).


See, the problem is that i can find just as many happy customers as well. Again, this is not a pride issue, but in reality, Buffalolick had it right. Unlike you guys further up, we have the perfect climate for SHB ......So how is this our fault? I do not think that the southern breeders are as inbred as you make it seem. Go visit FBM and tell me he doesnt have good Nucs and very diverse diverse genetics..... He was the one telling me how to buy queens and when and from where to keep that from happening. One of his nucs i purchased drew 3 frames of new wax almost completely overnight......I bought a 3 lb package from H&L last year, They overwintered ina single deep even though they had a medium to move to.....and this was the hive i have made 5 splits from because they were so strong. Each of those splits is 2 med deep now and working on their first supers from middle March. Got 2 Nucs From Barnett Apiaries and they are going gang busters.....

It's really not a debate either way...and I guess its hard no matter how you look at it, and i am positive their are some total sham package sellers out there that are just "selling bees"......but you just cannot say that as a whole...thats my only point.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Oh and BTW, i do think you need to be buying northern packages and Nucs. The bees are better acclimated to your climate differences....


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

I'm getting off topic. My apologies, this is turning into a southern package vs. northern nucs debate, but I want to hit on several points here.

But first, the important things. Your moniker sounds like you're a Marine. I'm USAF (retired) and I've never met a Marine I didn't like. Contrast, I've met several AF guys I just didn't like. Semper Fi, my friend, I have a soft spot in my heart for leathernecks and jarheads in all shapes and sizes...rah!



devdog108 said:


> Funny thing.....Ga Ap law says you "have" to treat....so how is it that Ga is providing all of the issues? Are they not enforcing their laws, or are the inspectors buddies?


I don't think treatment (or not) is the real issue, unless you're talking SHB only. My limited experience seems to be the genetics. The gene pool seems to be stressed and I'm not clear why, other than I'd suppose that Hardeman, Wilbanks and others are more focused on getting volume out the door. My guess is that the focus is not on bringing in diversity in genetics (pertaining to varroa). I am not familiar with FBM's operation on genetic diversity. I bet his packages (if he sells them) may not have the types of problems we're seeing from the big name producers.



devdog108 said:


> See, the problem is that i can find just as many happy customers as well. ... Unlike you guys further up, we have the perfect climate for SHB ......So how is this our fault? I do not think that the southern breeders are as inbred as you make it seem. Go visit FBM and tell me he doesnt have good Nucs and very diverse diverse genetics..... It's really not a debate either way...and I guess its hard no matter how you look at it, and i am positive their are some total sham package sellers out there that are just "selling bees"......but you just cannot say that as a whole...thats my only point. ?


You're right. It's not fair to generalize. I will say that, according to some e-mails I had seen, until this year, I don't think the entire state of Vermont had ever seen a hive beetle, until a Georgia package got "imported" there. You're right, it's not your fault. It's the package customers' fault for bringing them there. Also, there are many many people around my area of Virginia that are VERY unhappy with what came out of Wilbanks Apiaries the past 2-3 years. It's sad to spend almost $100 to see your money go down the drain within a few weeks. Is it the new beekeepers fault? Maybe they cannot manage the colony? A refund is just not possible. When I sell my nucs to students here, or Mike Palmer sells his to customers in Vermont, the worse problem is they might swarm, but they don't die in the 1st month they're hived. Contrast, in March this year I got a package from Hardeman, for the purpose of drawing mating nuc frames. They're doing well, knock on wood, after 2 months, feisty bees and I like that quality, no problems there. But there is a general trend of dissatisfaction with the quality coming out of the Empire State--and I'm not talking New York. We Virginians call ourselves "Southerners" too, but you should hear the groan from the audience at our state meetings whenever the term "Georgia or southern package" is said aloud. I don't think it's a conspiracy. But it is definitely a negative perception. And Dann Purvis is no dummy...he's very in-tuned to what's out there in the bee genetic world. I tend to think he knows what he's talking about when he says southern bees are "dead men walking."



devdog108 said:


> i do think you need to be buying northern packages and Nucs. The bees are better acclimated to your climate differences.... ?


Maybe. I lived in Warner Robins, Georgia for 4 years in the Air Force. It is definitely warmer there, but north GA, around Resaca, is an almost identical climate and temperature as northern Virginia. Funny when you cross the Pennsylvania border, though, the temp drops about 30 degrees.


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## devdog108 (May 7, 2009)

Ha haha...Ill let you go, even if you are AF...LOL. I think I need say hey Mike, if i ever get a chance to come by, can I still.....I am REALLY good at listneing and following directions....sometimes...LOL. And we need to hammer the southern package providers that are your big namers if they are giving you bad bees or bad genetics. I have heard of the Purvis Bros. and their reputation and if it is what he says it is, then i would be ever inclined to believe him. I have heard nothing but good coming from Skinners package buyers and he has even followed up with them from what I am hearing. Barnett and FBM as well as H&L did me well, and I know that the MP buyers will all be happy. Maybe we just need to start going back to the little guys and stop trying to buy in bulk. I don't have a whole lot that i call mine, but as my wife, who hates my new hobby(all she sees in the money I spend, not the fun i have) there is a lot of pride involved with having good bees. I posted a poll, now if people would only answer the thing. I know i have heard a lot of problems like supercedures, lots of absconding, weak packages and such. I liked the idea of queen swapping if you could find someone you could trust. Oh and something about that Mason Dixon Line makes it a lot colder...LOL. i married a native Buffalonian and a Marine.


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Keith Jarrett said:


> " Michael's B&B " That's bed & bee's. Hey I see $$$$ new business. Two day stay $.... four day stay $$ or the whole week $$$$$.


Great idea.........but it reminds me of a sign I once saw at the auto mechanic? $75 an hour if you drop off, $100 hour if you watch, $150 an hour if you help!


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

fatscher said:


> I don't think quantifying the recent poor quality from down south would be too difficult. Just count the complaints.


Our own local bee forum (Virginia) and others in neighboring Maryland has seen several posts on packages superseding their queens in the first month


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## BEES4U (Oct 10, 2007)

Nice photos.
Who is your supplier for the cardboard nucs?
Ernie


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Wax coated cardboard are available from Brushy, but MP probably has another source for buying a large quantity.


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## habutti (Apr 20, 2008)

I got my supply earlier from Dadant, they carry them as well!


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

winevines said:


> Wax coated cardboard are available from Brushy, but MP probably has another source for buying a large quantity.


Actually, I had to buy them from Brushy. They didn't send enough cardboard frame rests, the screens weren't bee tight, bees leaked in Mini-Coopers, Volvos, and VW Gti's. Cute!

Why do people pick up their bees while wearing beach clothes??


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

Michael Palmer said:


> the screens weren't bee tight
> Why do people pick up their bees while wearing beach clothes??


That story is one for the record books- hilarious 

I used a little duct tape to secure the boxes a bit- held the bottom and sides in a bit tighter and the screens seemed pretty secure that way- but at your volume, that is a lot of extra work to do.


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Michael Palmer said:


> Why do people pick up their bees while wearing beach clothes??


The same reason they wipe down their hubcaps after traveling on the dusty roads of French Hill! And that reminds me, when are you gonna pave your road for these people, huh?:lpf:


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## winevines (Apr 7, 2007)

fatscher said:


> T And that reminds me, when are you gonna pave your road for these people, huh?:lpf:


And while you are at it, maybe your customers should be advised to bring their own duct tape and secure the boxes before taking them. (BTW, can't imagine that SNOW those boxes sat on had anything to do with it-- : -)


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## MDS (Jan 9, 2011)

Way cool you were able to work with Mike Palmer.

If you want to be a better tennis player, then play against a better tennis player! Read it again, it makes since! It appears it will be hard for you to find a better tennis player after those two weeks. I've never met the man, but can tell his back-hand (if he plays tennis) would be hard to play against.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Nice picture of Michael's honey house on page 247, american bee journal march edition, 2011. I would eat honey produced out of this processing plant....Honey produced out of many beekeepers extraction plants--I WILL NOT-filthy TK


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

Ted, you're next to be cursed with my presence if I can get a kitchen pass from Mrs. Fatscher. Do I need to bring my own bed along, or might you have a pile of hay for me to sleep on like John Kefuss in Toulouse?


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I have a fully furnished effeciency apartment located in the front of the honey house. It is about 800 sq feet. I use it for H2A help when we have foreign help, (we hire beekeepers from South Africa or Russia and they are GOOD beekeepers), and for visiting beekeepers like yourself. Bring yourself a sleeping bag. There is a couch and a bed to sleep on. Take your pick. If Mrs. Fatscher is a good cook, bring her along, beats the local greasy spoons anyday. TK PS we even have indoor plumbing here in the "deep" south.


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Michael Palmer said:


> Actually, I had to buy them from Brushy. They didn't send enough cardboard frame rests, the screens weren't bee tight, bees leaked in Mini-Coopers, Volvos, and VW Gti's. Cute!
> 
> Why do people pick up their bees while wearing beach clothes??


FYI....

You can get a laundry bag at walmart for ~3 bucks. Offer that to the people picking up nucs. I bought one when I first picked up my nucs in the sports car. I expected to get some escaped bees, so I planned ahead.

Worked out pretty good. Had 2 bees escape and they were walking around inside the bag.

Just make sure you get the ones with the small enough holes.

-Kevin


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## fatscher (Apr 18, 2008)

KevinR said:


> FYI....
> You can get a laundry bag at walmart for ~3 bucks. Offer that to the people picking up nucs.


Hmmmm, sounds like a good idea. It's the mesh bags you're talking about, not the "solid" cloth bags?


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## KevinR (Apr 30, 2010)

Yup, 

They have one that is made of braided nylon type string, with a fishnet like weave. The holes are small enough to keep the bees from coming through ~1/8" or so.

I think it was $1.99, but might be 2.99. Either way, it was cheap enough that I think a someone selling nucs could grab a handful and pass the cost onto the customer.


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## Davidnewbeeboxbuilder (Oct 6, 2012)

I am not a genius by no standard but I ordered packaged two years in a row. The first year ten seven died. This year I grafted and requeening and walla lost none. They have no incentive In raising a high quality product cause there lined up around the block to pay high quality price for whatever they'll give. I was not impressed with all the virgin queens in my packages but I put them to good use. Lol


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## SaltyBees (Dec 20, 2015)

I know this is way late but in the pics, you are pouring syrup into a void in the nuc. Is that feed to bridge travel? You pool it in the bottom of the nuc?


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

Without going back and looking at the pictures my guess would be a feeder. It is divided so each side gets access to only one half.

Tom


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## Michael Palmer (Dec 29, 2006)

Likewise, not looking at the photos...I was pouring syrup into the nuc after a late April snowstorm. Just enough to keep them alive until I could do something. No feeder. Just poured over the bees.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

"found it very helpful to erase my own predjudices and simply listen to what Mike wanted me to do in his yards. I tried to do exactly what he asked"

:thumbsup:


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## JoAnn-N-Robert (Aug 30, 2017)

fatscher said:


> I was blessed with transition leave, upon retiring from the USAF, and found myself with lots of free time on my hands. So, I decided to intern with Mike Palmer in Vermont for 2 weeks. ..../[/URL]


 Lucky you! Does he still take interns? Do you have to be an enrolled student with a college or will he take in anybody ?
I had thought awhile back, before I knew he did this.. "Wouldn't it be cool to work to learn for a week!" My husband was born and raised in St.Albans but moved in 2003. I wouldn't be surprised if they had crossed paths at some point.. 
If I could do that I could probably stay with one of my husbands family members . 
We live in Arizona tho , that's a chunk of change to fly that far round trip so would probably never happen but it's nice to dream.


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