# 8 frame deeps seem ideal, why aren't all commercial guys running them?



## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

a fair number of commercials are using 8 frame hives. they may require more attention as 8 frames tend to swarm quicker. once a person starts with 10 frame equip think of the expense and logistics of changing to 8 frame. I use all 10 frame medium equip and am very content with that setup. as usual 5 different beekeepers will have 6 different opinions.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Agree with each and every point in Beeware's post.

8 framers will be fine for a hobbyist. Some commercial folks may use them if they cannot deal with full sized boxes although I don't know of any myself. Reason why not? 25% smaller, 25% more gear required, 25% more fiddly and work required, more expense.

I've heard of some folks using 8 frame mediums. But do the maths, these boxes are only slightly better than 1/2 the volume of a 10 frame full depth deep. Other than trying to manage such a hive in terms of swarming, climbing to the top of it, etc, just the cost of all the extra bits needed to accommodate the same number of bees would be prohibitive in a cost competitive setting. Boxes may be 1/2 size but they are sure not 1/2 price.

End of day though hive design is as much about the beekeeper as the bees. If someone is more comfortable with smaller boxes, whatever works best for them.


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## Mike Gillmore (Feb 25, 2006)

We have a lot of commercial pollinators in this area who overwinter in 10 frame deeps. It's the perfect size for pollination purposes. Just enough to overwinter in, with a little spring feeding if necessary. And single deep 10 frame boxes can be easily moved to the orchards prior to bloom, and then supered in place later.

An 8 frame deep would not be quite enough to support the colony through the winter and then allow sufficient room for build up prior to pollination. Ten frame deeps is the most efficient size for them.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

90% or more of American Commercials beeks are running 10 frame deeps. 

Now think if you had 500. 8 frame hives and wanted to sell them or purchases 500 more..... it would be much harder to sell or find 8 framers as opposed to 10's.

Good Old fashioned American Beekeeping can't beat it!


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

...... (eight frame boxes)


> Can be used for nucs (with 2gal feeder) supers and brood,


You're making the assumption that four frame nucs take up half of an eight-frame box; actually double-wide four frame nucs occupy the space of a 10-frame base, box, etc. The divider in between the nuc boxes uses up the space of two frames. At least that's the set-up I have.

Enj.


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## GaryG74 (Apr 9, 2014)

The main reason I use 8 frame equipment is the weight. To hard to lift, move 10 frame deeps without "beekeeper's back" becoming an issue. Use what YOU are comfortable with. Commercial Beeks have forklifts to do the heavy lifting.


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## Arch (Dec 3, 2014)

So in regards to over wintering. Converting double 10 frame deeps to double 8 frame deeps could be a simple task of installing double deep follower boards in place of the outer frames. Come spring replace with standard frames.
I have been considering this. Anyone try this with success yet?


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Arch said:


> So in regards to over wintering. Converting double 10 frame deeps to double 8 frame deeps could be a simple task of installing double deep follower boards in place of the outer frames. Come spring replace with standard frames.
> I have been considering this. Anyone try this with success yet?


I don't do this often but I have done it with success.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

I run 8 frames in my ten frame deeps that have feeders in them and 9 frames in the boxes that don't. I do know one guy who runs a commercial operation with his grown Son who uses 8 frame equipment, 6 hives per pallet.


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

100 lb 10 frame, deep, super just sounds unpleasant to me (more so than a 75lb. 8 deep.) Even with a lift, do you guys raise a smooth pallet just below them and slide them off?

re: the 8 frame deep nucs I saw some were using a follower board to make 2 or 3 frames with frame-feeder then adding frames as it grew; not splitting it. Rather than buy more than one type of box (nuc box.)

Maybe wanting to use one deep sized box for everything is not the best way to go about it. I sure like the idea of any frame anywhere though.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I've run all 8 frame deeps for the last ten years, I started as my neighbor back then ran them.

The Mannlake's are wider than beespace so that you can add that feeder by taking out just one frame. That extra width makes it very easy to divide into side by side 4 frame nucs.

20% less weight or close to it, 20% less wide as well, which makes it much easier to carry as the center of gravity is closer to your body.

Extra row of hives on the truck.

By the time bees get built out to eight frames wide, they are more than ready to want to build upwards.

I use Mannlake's boxes, and the only reason I don't care for them in 8 frame width is I don't use inner feeders, so the extra beespace makes it so the outside frames are always drawn too wide so that I can't move them to other positions in the hive. I can over come that by using follower boards though, as in my opinion for my small outfit here, the other reason's I listed above far outweigh that non-beespace width issue.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

I've run all 8 frame deeps for the last ten years, I started as my neighbor back then ran them. He was a sideliner for almond pollination and he had up to 80 hives.

The Mannlake's are wider than beespace so that you can add that feeder by taking out just one frame. That extra width makes it very easy to divide into side by side 4 frame nucs.

20% less weight or close to it, 20% less wide as well, which makes it much easier to carry as the center of gravity is closer to your body.

Extra row of hives on the truck.

By the time bees get built out to eight frames wide, they are more than ready to want to build upwards.

I use Mannlake's boxes, and the only reason I don't care for them in 8 frame width is I don't use inner frame feeders, so the extra beespace makes it so the outside frames are always drawn too wide so that I can't move them to other positions in the hive. I can over come that by using follower boards though, as in my opinion for my small outfit here, the other reason's I listed above far outweigh that non-beespace width issue.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

StingerMcStung said:


> 100 lb 10 frame, deep, super just sounds unpleasant to me (more so than a 75lb. 8 deep.) Even with a lift, do you guys raise a smooth pallet just below them and slide them off?


Commercial beekeepers pick up whatever size supers they use. No, no sliding them off.

When picking up deeps I have never weighed any of them, but I doubt that they average 100 lbs. I have extracted quite a few deeps and getting 60 lbs of honey out of them is not unusual, but I doubt that 9 combs and the wooden ware weigh 40 lbs.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

I'm only making 8 frame equipment now. I like that it is lighter and I like to super with deeps. A double deep 8 frame set up is more than enough to get bees through the winter here although I try to get them into winter in triple deeps. It's a pain having both 10 and 8 frame equipment but I'm not getting rid of the 10 frame equipment until it breaks or rots away. I talked to a commercial near me and he said if he had the chance to do a few things over, one of those things would be going with all 8 frame equipment. He runs feeders and 7 frames in his 8 frame hives. Eight frame deeps tend to get tall fast though.


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

Thank you all for the info.

Ray: thanks for the frame feeder info sizing. Some of your old posts actually put the 8 frame deep bug in my head. 
Can I ask why you stopped using the frame feeders?

I probably should have phrased it how many went from 8 frame deeps back to 10 deeps and why?

What's nagging me is there must be a reason the 10 deeps are the standard. Perhaps it's simply because frame real-estate is 12% cheaper, but I see a lot are running a different depth super, so I don't get non-standardization.

I guess on the bright side, less folks might want to steal them.


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## Ian (Jan 16, 2003)

Some days I think an eleven frame brood box would be ideal


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## dsegrest (May 15, 2014)

StingerMcStung said:


> No bees, deciding on gear and reading a lot and I must be missing something (could be location too)
> 
> All 8 deeps seem ideal based on what I've read: Can be used for nucs (with 2gal feeder) supers and brood, more to a truck, queen/bee rearing, etc
> -- all one size.
> ...


The bees seem to leave the frames on the edges of a 10 frame and fill the frames on the edges of an 8 frame. I use the 10 frame with a 1 gallon feeder and 9 frames as my top brood box and 10 frames in the bottom brood box. When the honey supers go on, the feeder will be replaced by a frame. I may have to switch the boxes if the bees have moved up which they usually do. It is good to make the switch before they backfill the bottom brood box.


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## Cabin (Nov 30, 2014)

I wonder how the pollination contracts are worded??? Maybe it is easier to meet the requirements with a 10 frame hive.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Different crops, different States, different growers, different criteria.


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## RayMarler (Jun 18, 2008)

StingerMcStung said:


> Ray: thanks for the frame feeder info sizing. Some of your old posts actually put the 8 frame deep bug in my head.
> Can I ask why you stopped using the frame feeders?
> 
> I probably should have phrased it how many went from 8 frame deeps back to 10 deeps and why?
> ...


Can I ask why you stopped using the frame feeders?
_Because I have to open the hive to fill them, I didn't have a great way of filling them, and sometimes bees drown,_

I probably should have phrased it how many went from 8 frame deeps back to 10 deeps and why?
_I never went back to tens_


What's nagging me is there must be a reason the 10 deeps are the standard.
_Perhaps because if over wintering in a single deep, the ten gives more real-estate for the bees_


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## odfrank (May 13, 2002)

It sure is nice to have a thread not all clogged up by Acebird.


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## beeware10 (Jul 25, 2010)

Its still early. lol


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

Ollie has thanked me numerous times for my advice to him about 8 frame supers although he won't admit it. Sometime old "stuck in their ways" beekeepers just need a little gentle nudge to get them back on track.


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

How valuable/important is being able to switch frames back and forth between brood and supers?

I'm guessing it must not be a huge game changer as I see a lot of the field hives with medium or shallow supers, but they're pros and my lack of experience might make it a bad idea.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

I was trained with deeps all the way, as brood combs got old and died they could be replaced with combs that had been honeycombs, if something needed a comb of honey we could give them one, etc etc.... The interchangeability is great.

Because I'm used to it I've found working hives with different sizes a bit of a nightmare when helping other folks, swarm control, and just about everything is way more complex or impossible. It has surprised me there are even commercial beekeepers using one size for brood and another for honey, but there you go, each to their own I guess.


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## rwurster (Oct 30, 2010)

Honestly OT all the bigger operations I've seen here are shallows over 2 deep brood chambers. I like deeps all the way. I do, however, have 20 or 30 mediums I made that I'm not going to toss, and I do use them but I have found in my few short years of beekeeping that I like an all 8 deep set up. Honestly the biggest problem I have come across with deeps is extractors. My little 2 frame extractor takes deeps, meds, shallow, etc. I have been looking for a larger extractor but finding an extractor that can spin a bunch of deep frames, there isn't much out there that I have seen. Admittedly I haven't looked too hard but when I looked there wasn't much out there. And an 8 frame deep full of honey only weighs 50-60 pounds so maybe 25 kilos max. But like I have said, height becomes an issue quicker than with 10 frame deeps so if you live in an area with high winds you'll have a smaller footprint with weight higher up on your stack of hives. Something to ponder. I do like the interchangability of the frames wherever I may need them such as I can drop them into nucs with no problems when doing splits etc.


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

All same size frame sounds nice, but what do I know.

I like what I've read about deep frames.

I'm wondering if a 10 frame deep with a 2 frame feeder, gets all the benefits of the 8 frame deep, and has one extra frame; then I have heavy-arse super -- perhaps I could use 8 deep super with a board if it didn't work out; a PITA but all same frame size and when that gets too heavy I can run 10 frame shallows.

Thanks; insight from experience is very helpful.


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## TWall (May 19, 2010)

I use 8-frame deeps and mediums. I use deeps fro brood chambers and supers. About a third of my supers are mediums. I like to use them to try and catch short flows like locust and to make comb honey.

If I had to start over I would go with 10-frame equipment. I have enough 8-frame equipment I don't see making a change now.

Sometimes I have a deep super really packed with honey and I pull a couple of frames out to lighten the load.

Tom


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

I switched to all 10 frame deeps a few years ago. Best thing I ever did.

For those who are concerned about weight in the 10 frame honey supers just place 8 frames in and use a follower board or frame feeder. 

We currently are experimenting with running 8 frames in our honey super. They are messy, but boy are they fat and easy to uncap.

Sure 8 frames and mediums work but I have hives overwintering 10-12 frames strong. A good young queen would need three 8 frame deep boxes just to give her enough space to lay. 

Then you have to hunt for queens and queen cells, pull frames of brood to make cell starters.... make up splits to sell or mating nucs.

Anything that makes these jobs take longer is a frustration to the profit minded beekeeper.


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

TWall said:


> <snip>
> 
> If I had to start over I would go with 10-frame equipment. I have enough 8-frame equipment I don't see making a change now.
> 
> ...


Tom,
What are the reasons you'd start over with 10 rather than 8?

It's the 10 deep honey supers vs 8 frame that have me leaning toward 8 deep for everything. Interchangeable frames, deep frames, honey box weight close to a medium 10 framer; just concerned about "swarmish'nish" and splits outgrowing a single 8 deep.


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

Tennessee's Bees LLC said:


> I switched to all 10 frame deeps a few years ago. Best thing I ever did.
> 
> For those who are concerned about weight in the 10 frame honey supers just place 8 frames in and use a follower board or frame feeder.
> 
> Sure 8 frames and mediums work but I have hives overwintering 10-12 frames strong. A good young queen would need three 8 frame deep boxes just to give her enough space to lay.


Are you running 8 frames in a 10 frame deep body EDIT: for honey supers, and if so what would you guess an avg. weight is?
The weights vary depending on the author. Something about supering up more and not letting the boxes get "plugged out" but I'm guessing that can't always be avoided.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

StingerMcStung said:


> Are you running 8 frames in a 10 frame deep body EDIT: for honey supers, and if so what would you guess an avg. weight is?
> The weights vary depending on the author. Something about supering up more and not letting the boxes get "plugged out" but I'm guessing that can't always be avoided.


Yes 8 in 10 frame box. The weight is still a little heavier than a 8 frame honey super due to the fat combs. It is not bad for me and I am on the small side. I have never weighed one so I really don't know the average weight. 

I place exterior handles on all our equipment and they are only on the front and back. Exterior handles make it easier to hold and it does not put as much strain in your lower back.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

I like 8 frame equipment and use deeps for hive bodies and supers, (someone gave me a few mediums). No regrets going with 8 frame deeps all around! It's personal preference.

The sticky point, is to buy from a supplier that truly supports 8 frame equipment. You will need hive pieces like shims, moving screens, double screen boards, Cloake boards, wood rimmed queen excluders, plastic excluders, and the _Many_ other small pieces one needs from time to time. I use Mann Lake Hive bodies and must buy such things from other suppliers, (which make their equipment one fourth of an inch *narrower than Mann Lake)*. In short Mannlake doesn't support 8 frame equipment like most of the older companies do. HTH


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## StingerMcStung (Apr 27, 2015)

TN: Thanks. Cleats sound like a good idea too.

LB: I'm glad you mentioned that. Mann Lake is right down the road and will be where my equipment comes from. Dawgonit.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Around thanksgiving, several suppliers offer free shipping. You will do well to have your order ready and take advantage of the offer. Brushy mountain has some pretty nice equipment and offer a lot of 8 frame accessories to support their boxes. Their boxes are a bit narrower than ML. Also kep in mind any sales tax involved. HTH


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## mobees77 (Aug 13, 2015)

I went into the main flow this past spring with 12 hives, 5-8frame and 7-10 frame all deeps, 4 out of my best 5 were 8 frame, and all 5-8 frames were nucs the previous November( 153 gallons extracted) with plenty left on also, I will be phasing out 10 frame equipment.


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## Charlie B (May 20, 2011)

mobees77 said:


> I will be phasing out 10 frame equipment.


You won't regret it mobees!


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