# type of bees to get for 2008



## Lanier74 (Oct 19, 2007)

I currently have one hive of Italian bees that I started with last year and they have one very well for me and I was very happy with them even though I got no honey from them this year as they were a package and we had a terriblly dry year. I started with these because they are suppose to be fairly gentle bees and these are very much so and I have been very happy with them. This coming year I am planning on trying to split this hive if they seem to be strong enough in the early spring but I am also wanting to buy 2 nucs and start two new hives as well. What are the recommendation, should I stay with one type of bee or would I be better to get a different kind and if a different kind is recommended are there any other good gently bees that are hardy for the new bee keeper? Also, not sure if it makes a difference but all 4 of the hives will be in the same general area, meaning within a few yards of each other. Thanks for any suggestions.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

Lanier74 said:


> I currently have one hive of Italian bees that I started with last year and they have one very well for me and I was very happy with them even though I got no honey from them this year as they were a package and we had a terriblly dry year. I started with these because they are suppose to be fairly gentle bees and these are very much so and I have been very happy with them. This coming year I am planning on trying to split this hive if they seem to be strong enough in the early spring but I am also wanting to buy 2 nucs and start two new hives as well. What are the recommendation, should I stay with one type of bee or would I be better to get a different kind and if a different kind is recommended are there any other good gently bees that are hardy for the new bee keeper? Also, not sure if it makes a difference but all 4 of the hives will be in the same general area, meaning within a few yards of each other. Thanks for any suggestions.


You might be able to make up three nucs from your one Italian colony. I start feeding pollen patties at the end of January to jump start my colonies for April 1 splits. You will need 3 new queens in April. 

My first choice is pure Russian queens from the breeding stock in Baton Rouge. Do not get Russian hybrid queens. Before my use of the pure Russian bees, I just produced bees and wax worms. It was unfortunate that I couldn’t sell wax worms!

I would have settled for a bee that reduced medication by 50%. However, I have a bee that doesn’t need medication. There is one caveat, however, the Russian bees today are better than the Russian bees that I had before 2004. Additionally, the Russian hybrids that I used were not as good as the pure Russian bees that I now use. 

My hat goes to the people at the USDA Bee Breeding Lab in Baton Rouge and bee breeders like Charlie Harper. I now have a bee that is as productive as the Starline hybrids and as gentle as the Midnight hybrids were in the 1960s.


----------



## pamlico (Apr 29, 2007)

I am getting two Russian nucs from redtractor1 out of Easley South Carolina. Check out his web site: http://porterfarmbees.com He gets his from USDA.


----------



## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

And so as people's experience and opinions go; you couldn't GIVE me a russian queen.
So my answer to you is to purchase different queens and see for yourself. It will be fun!
If you see traits, watch over a few years to see if they repeat.
Keep notes.
Sooner or later you will have a favorite. 
But by all means, if you want swarming & swarming & swarming & swarming & swarming & swarming & swarming & swarming & swarming & swarming & swarming, try a russian.


----------



## power napper (Apr 2, 2005)

Harry-Is that eleven swarms from a Russian hive a year or are you suggesting that Russins swarm somewhat?


----------



## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

power napper said:


> Harry-Is that eleven swarms from a Russian hive a year or are you suggesting that Russins swarm somewhat?


Well,,,maybe I did overdo that a bit,,But not by much.

I am going to give you a cool link to check out.
This involves some of the finest beekeepers in Oregon.
They recieved a grant from the USDA for research on Russian Bees.
When you open the first page, click on "Research" at the left of the screen.
After that, continue to click on the continuing research at the bottom of each page.
OK, remember to click on "research" to get started:

http://www.honeystonecandles.com/


----------



## REDTRACTOR1 (Dec 10, 2003)

Not all people agree with you harry. Some times it is due to management. I have been raising russian bees for 5 years and i do not have excessive swarming. They are very gentle and the people that i sell to say they produce honey very well. They winter with a very small cluster and bust wide open when the pollen starts coming in. They are very frugal with stores. 
Thanks Dwight


----------



## mistergil (May 24, 2007)

There are plenty of opinions about which bee will work the best but remember that these may be opinions formed from a variety of causes and reasons. Different strains respond differently to environmental and associated handling characteristics therefore any advice may not be all inclusive to a particular situation. So you are left with trying out different types and seeing which ones you decide are the best for your individual needs. I like carns and cordovans, they suit my needs and beekeeping methods but I think I could adjust to any if it were necessary as I have kept nearly every strain over the years anyway. Bottom line is try some and see what works for you. Each has pluses and faults and you'll never know for certain unless you try.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

*Swarming and Russian Bees*



HarryVanderpool said:


> Well,,,maybe I did overdo that a bit,,But not by much.
> 
> I am going to give you a cool link to check out.
> This involves some of the finest beekeepers in Oregon.
> ...


I do not have any more swarming problems with Russian bees than I did with Italian bees. One thing to remember is that Russian bees need different management techniques than Italian bees. Russian colonies will start out weak in the early spring, compared to Italian colonies. Then the Russian colonies will explode in population and will surpass the Italian colonies in population. I am always surprised by the great increase in population in such a short period of time. If I do not super my Russian colonies a couple of weeks before I think that I need to, I will have swarming problems. However, if I give them enough room early enough, my problems with swarming are minimal.

By the way, Porter belongs to the newly formed Russian Queen Association. I think that they had their first meeting in Hattiesburg, Mississippi a couple of months ago. I would only buy Russian queens from members of this association.


----------



## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

*Cordovans*



mistergil said:


> I like carns and cordovans, they suit my needs and beekeeping methods but I think I could adjust to any if it were necessary as I have kept nearly every strain over the years anyway. Bottom line is try some and see what works for you. Each has pluses and faults and you'll never know for certain unless you try.


Yeah. Enough of that Russian nonsense.
So you use Cordovan queens also?
Going back through the years of research, all I can find is a color trait difference from Italians.
But the Cordovans that I purchace, and I am on my 3rd year of using them, are by for the best all around bees that I have.
I purchace queens from 5 sources throughout the year.
Most are Italian, Some are Carnies, and lately 50 - 100 Cordovans.
I have been marking my Cordovan hive lids with a square of red electrical tape.
Day after day of plowing through the hives it has became chrystal clear that the hives headed with Cordovans are the most impressive, gentlist, out of the entire outfit.
I buy them from Pendells Apiaries, Stonyfort CA.
I keep telling myself that they are just red Italians.
But DANG they are good bees!
How do yours compare?


----------



## REDTRACTOR1 (Dec 10, 2003)

Hey JC,
You are right i do belong to the russsian queen breeders association. Thanks for the plug. What you said about different management practices defininatly stands true. And the latest russians are different from the ones last year (2006). Still docile and still make alot of false queen cells.
Thanks Dwight


----------



## shawnwri (Jul 31, 2006)

try local if they are available.


----------



## phil c (Jan 21, 2007)

I'm following this thread with some interest. I'm going to add 2 hives this year and I was cosidering carnis. This year I had 2 hives of Italians, I got good honey from them and didnt have any swarm problems.


----------



## pamlico (Apr 29, 2007)

Lanier74, I have Italians and Carniolans. I like them both. I have a friend that has had Russians for years. I have been with him several times working his Russians and I like them. Try them, see how you like them.


----------



## tecumseh (Apr 26, 2005)

Lanier writes:
I currently have one hive of Italian bees that I started with last year and they have one very well for me and I was very happy with them even though I got no honey from them this year as they were a package and we had a terriblly dry year.

tecumseh just wonders:
with a statement like the above WHY would you be thinking about trying some other race of bee or anyother supplier? Are you just lookin' for trouble... or what?


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

REDTRACTOR1 said:


> Hey JC,
> You are right i do belong to the russsian queen breeders association. Thanks for the plug. What you said about different management practices defininatly stands true. And the latest russians are different from the ones last year (2006). Still docile and still make alot of false queen cells.
> Thanks Dwight


The Russian bees like to have a lot of EMPTY queen cells, just in case that they need them. 

Tell us more about the new Russian Queen Breeders Association. Did you go to their first meeting in Hattiesburg, Mississippi?


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

*History of Russian Bee Program*

http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=6444


----------



## Lanier74 (Oct 19, 2007)

to everyone for the advise.
Thanks for all the advise. Looks like a lot of people like the Russian bees here. If I would get a hive of Russian can they be placed near my Italians or would there be a robbing problem with either group.

To tecumseh.
Yeah it would seem like this would be a dumb question since I am happy with the ones I have, but I guess being very new I am keeping my options open and not getting a closed mind to anything. Although I am hoping to get some bees this year that produce some honey for me since I got none from the package last year, I still like to be able to walk down to the hive and just open the top without having to dress up in the vail and suit and have to worry about them. I am also hoping that buying nucs this year will help give them a jump start as well as starting with drawn comb rather than just foundation as I did last year with the package. Any other advise is also greatly appreciated.

To Pamlicofootball. Do you know of anyone in or near Central NC that has nucs of either the Italians or Russians that they will be saling this spring?


----------



## Ben Brewcat (Oct 27, 2004)

Especially for first-few-season beeks, Italians and New World Carniolans are easy recommendations. Since you have tried Italians, get a NWC queen or two. I love them: very gentle, pretty bees, and they are adaptable to my weird climate and flows. I keep them on Main street (as in 4 feet from the sidewalk) and all the neighbors love them, they're that gentle.

Like Tecu said, if you like your bees that's a big part of your answer there. But if you just can't help playing (like me), I'd stick with something a little lower maintenance like Carnis. With a little attention during swarm season they're fun and easy bees.


----------



## REDTRACTOR1 (Dec 10, 2003)

JC,
I did not get to make the meeting in Hattiesburg as my wife was sick. I received 12 drone mothers in july of this year. I had 4 more queens from Charlie Harper that i raised queens from this year (2007). I will be receiving more breeder queens from the USDA in early april 2008. I am looking forward to raising alot more queens this year (2008). I will have about 250 5 frame nucs to sell in 2008. I began taking orders in Dec for queens and nucs and have allready sold about 120 5 framers and about 100 queens. They are going fast this year. I am going to try to raise about 2000 Queens this year. I build my own equiptment with the exception of frames. I plan on expanding to about 500 hives this year, I have almost got all the equiptment built. I am just waiting for spring so we can get started.


----------



## REDTRACTOR1 (Dec 10, 2003)

Lanier74,
Bees can get defensive on cloudy days, any race of bee i'm talking about. I will make a suggestion based on my experiences only. I would wear a veil and always have your LIT smoker handy. I wear shorts and a tee shirt when i am working the bees, but i always wear my veil as i got stung in the eye last summer and had a cloudy eye for several days. I thought i was gonna lose sight in my right eye. These are suggestions only. Hope this helps you. If i can be of help to you feel free to pm me.
Thanks Dwight


----------



## pamlico (Apr 29, 2007)

Jack Tapp is located near Chapel Hill. He sell Italians. Rey Revis in Marion, NC and Redtractor1 in Easley, South Carolina sell the Russians


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

Lanier74 said:


> to everyone for the advise.
> Thanks for all the advise. Looks like a lot of people like the Russian bees here. If I would get a hive of Russian can they be placed near my Italians or would there be a robbing problem with either group.
> 
> Bees are bees and they do not practice racial discrimination when they rob. They will rob any weak colony when there is no nectar flow.
> ...


----------



## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

IMO, you should stay with what you have until you get a really good feel for 
handling bees. If you want to try a different queen just for the sake of trying 
one, go with a Carniolan (NWC). All the ones I've ever had have been extremely 
gentle. I have a few hives with Carnis in them for my ten year old daughter. She
likes to help so I let her help with them. She's really amazed at how she don't 
have to wear gloves when handling the frames. I've also had some Russians 
before that I wouldn't handle without gloves and I don't think I'll be purchasing 
any Russian queens again any time soon.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

WVbeekeeper said:


> IMO, you should stay with what you have until you get a really good feel for
> handling bees. If you want to try a different queen just for the sake of trying
> one, go with a Carniolan (NWC). All the ones I've ever had have been extremely
> gentle. I have a few hives with Carnis in them for my ten year old daughter. She
> ...


Things have changed since 2004. You may have had Russian hybrid queens before 2004. The pure Russian breeder queens from the USDA and Charlie Harper are extremely gentle. Every now and then I will get a production queen that is not gentle. I had one production queen out of 20 in 2005 that produced some mean bees. The 2006 and 2007 Russian bees were great. I can stand directly in front of my Russian colonies and they do not even get agitated.

Do not purchase any Russian hybrid queens. Only purchase pure Russian queens from members of the newly formed Russian Bee Breeders Association. 

We are entering a new era. Pure Russian queens will become a lot easier to purchase. Even Charlie Harper will be producing more production queens.


----------



## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

*?*

Is there anybody near Oklahoma who breeds pure Russians and/or is a member of the Russian Bee Breeders Assoc?

P.S.

Does that association have a website? I looked on Google and did not find one.


----------



## HarryVanderpool (Apr 11, 2005)

*Truth or Consequences*



WVbeekeeper said:


> IMO, you should stay with what you have until you get a really good feel for
> handling bees. If you want to try a different queen just for the sake of trying
> one, go with a Carniolan (NWC). All the ones I've ever had have been extremely
> gentle. I have a few hives with Carnis in them for my ten year old daughter. She
> ...


My feelings exactly.
And one more little minor detail to sort out:
Are Russians "great honey producers"?
If you are into honey production you would be wise to investigate this question thoroughly.
Oh and I know someone will come back with "management".
Well I for one would never deliberatly select a race that requires all of that extra management.
But remember the bottom line:
YOU are the boss in your operation.
YOU will reap the rewards, or decry the failures of each choice that you make.
The choice is yours.
Have fun with your bees!


----------



## JBJ (Jan 27, 2005)

Ok Harry, I got to chime in.Some lines of bees including Russians have the perception of being "swarmy", but I really think it can be a management issue. You don't dive a VW the same way you would a souped up Porsche. I think that there is not more management, it is just that the timing of the management is different. I also feel that some of these bees like to be split..early and often. This can be done and great yields can still be attained.


----------



## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

JC said:


> Things have changed since 2004. You may have had Russian hybrid queens before 2004. The pure Russian breeder queens from the USDA and Charlie Harper are extremely gentle. Every now and then I will get a production queen that is not gentle. I had one production queen out of 20 in 2005 that produced some mean bees. The 2006 and 2007 Russian bees were great. I can stand directly in front of my Russian colonies and they do not even get agitated.
> 
> Do not purchase any Russian hybrid queens. Only purchase pure Russian queens from members of the newly formed Russian Bee Breeders Association.
> 
> We are entering a new era. Pure Russian queens will become a lot easier to purchase. Even Charlie Harper will be producing more production queens.


The breeder I got my queens from, got his breeder queens from the USDA!!!
That was a big selling point for me along with the tolerance to varroa issue.
Unless the USDA was making hybrids, the queens I received were not either. I
requeened with them in the fall and didn't have any swarm issues with them (the next spring).
It was hard to even work a hive next to the russians due to all the 
headbutting and aggravation they were putting me through while not even 
been in their hive yet!!! Also they'd follow for quite a distance when I was 
finished inspecting. I never have seen any bees like them. I truly hope that 
what you have now is a lot gentler cause I don't want or would recommend 
them because of my experience with them a few years back. I'd have to see 
and work with some now before I'd change my mind about owning any again. 
Or maybe I could get a few to sit up a few nucs with this spring (a few miles 
from the house) and see how defensive they get when they get fully built up.


----------



## Fred Bee (May 5, 2007)

*Italians and New World Carniolans*

As you can see, opinions are varried on this subject...but I am going to offer my two cents worth too. I like Italians and New World Carniolans. My wife especially likes the New World Carniolans as they are very gentle and easy to work. Good luck with the bees in 2008!


----------



## Moonshae (Jun 7, 2007)

Is there anyone who ships NWC nucs? Small cell would be a plus, but not mandatory.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

HarryVanderpool said:


> My feelings exactly.
> And one more little minor detail to sort out:
> Are Russians "great honey producers"?
> If you are into honey production you would be wise to investigate this question thoroughly.
> ...


Russian bees are not for everyone!

Russian bees do not require extra management, just different management. The bee breeding lab in Baton Rouge did some studies on honey production of Russian bees compared to Italian bees. The Russian bees have been producing more honey than the Italian bees in the last few years. Remember, Russian colonies are stronger because they are more mite resistant than Italian colonies. 

Attending the field day at the lab in Baton Rouge was well worth my time. Here is some useful information.


http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2006/060809.htm


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

ndvan said:


> Is there anybody near Oklahoma who breeds pure Russians and/or is a member of the Russian Bee Breeders Assoc?
> 
> P.S.
> 
> Does that association have a website? I looked on Google and did not find one.


The Russian Bee Breeders Association is very new. They just had their first meeting in November for all of those who were interested in selling Russian bees. Contact Charlie Harper for more information. He seems to know more than anyone else. He also sells Russian production queens for $25 each.

http://www.russianbreeder.com/


----------



## PCM (Sep 18, 2007)

ndvan

For Russian Bees in Ok.

You might try;
Velvert Williams
Heavener, Ok.
www.vlwbee.santu.com

He is also on beesource.com, use the search feature

PCM


----------



## Bizzybee (Jan 29, 2006)

Italian bees will make a little more honey compared to Russian bees or Carnies. Given you are comparing good colonies of all strains. Every colony not strains, are NOT created equal. But given the Italians are going to maintain larger colonies and so require more stores to maintain those colonies are in my opinion not going to make a very large difference in production. 

Also, (IMO) the Italians take a little more labor to maintain. But I don't have any intention of not keeping any of them. I do enjoy quite well keeping all of them. I do however keep them separated. Crossing the black bees with the orange bees will without a doubt lead to some hateful hybrids. Yes it can be bred out through selection and they can make some very good bees in all aspects. They can be unpredictable at the least until you see how they maintain their colonies as they will pick up traits from both strains. But that can be part of the fun in seeing what you have come up with. 

All of the strains are quite gentle when kept separate but can also produce a hive or two that are not so fun to handle. To say that any one strain never produces any hateful bees just isn't true.

There are generalities that hold true in beekeeping and in strains of bees. But their are no hard fast rules that we have to go by. It's an ever changing world and beekeeping isn't immune to the changes. There will always be new threats that present themselves and challenges to overcome. And different bees will respond differently and we must as well.

I would say that if you like to keep things as simple as they can be. Then settle in on one strain and go with them. If you like diversity and want to get the full flavor and enjoyment IMO from beekeeping. Then venture into keeping some other bees.


----------



## Lanier74 (Oct 19, 2007)

Sounds like there are definately a wide range of varing opinions on this topic and that is what I was hoping to get..the good and the bad of it all to give me a little more knowlege...or at least opinions to make my next decisions. From everything I am readying I think I will definatley try a hive of the Russians as well as another hive of the Italians since I know I like them.
One additional question...If I split my Italian hive..first when is the best time to split the hive and second can I put a Russian queen with this hive or will that end up maying a hybrid hive and do I need to start with a complete Russican nuc or package?

Thanks for all the idea.


----------



## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

Moonshae said:


> Is there anyone who ships NWC nucs? Small cell would be a plus, but not mandatory.


Contact Buckeye Bee
http://www.buckeyebee.com/price.html

If you'd like a larger list of Package Honeybee & Queen Suppliers, click on the 
Package Honeybee & Queen Suppliers on my blog.

http://wvbeekeeper.blogspot.com/


----------



## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

Lanier74 said:


> One additional question...If I split my Italian hive..first when is the best time to split the hive and second can I put a Russian queen with this hive or will that end up maying a hybrid hive and do I need to start with a complete Russican nuc or package?
> 
> Thanks for all the idea.


The time to split should be based on the incoming resources available in your 
area and how built up the hive is. Don't split if the hive is too weak.

You'll only get a hybrid if you order a virgin queen. Most queens are already 
mated and laying before they are sold. It will take a few months before the 
Russian colony is 100% Russian. The Italians have to die off first.


----------



## Deano (Sep 4, 2004)

*russians bees all the way*

i have been useing russians for four years ,some hives might have some mississippi mutts in them, but they are gentle bee s, they love to head butt you. i have had a couple warm hives . requeen themas soon as possible. doown here we buy our bees from mr. tubb. mize m.s. pure stock.


----------



## WVbeekeeper (Jun 4, 2007)

Lanier74 said:


> can I put a Russian queen with this hive or will that end up maying a hybrid hive and do I need to start with a complete Russican nuc or package?


Start with a nuc or package if you want some honey from your Italian hive 
cause you're going to sit it back in development from splitting it. Be sure to have
your queens marked in both the Italian and Russian hives. A high percentage, or 
a higher percentage than previously thought, of queens are superseded after 
introduction. Then when your new supersedure queen emerges and mates with 
some Italian drones you will have mixed offspring from that queen. Mark the 
queens to make sure you keep them pure if you don't want them mongrelized.


----------



## JC (Jun 3, 2006)

WVbeekeeper said:


> Start with a nuc or package if you want some honey from your Italian hive
> cause you're going to sit it back in development from splitting it. Be sure to have
> your queens marked in both the Italian and Russian hives. A high percentage, or
> a higher percentage than previously thought, of queens are superseded after
> ...


Additionally, order clipped queens in case the paint comes off.


----------

