# Can I get some feedback on my nuc marketing?



## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

Good luck with your sales. I believe you may be over thinking this. My experience has been that you advertise nuc sales and jump back out of the way. One thing you will find is that a lot of purchasers are dreamers who are going to do ,"everything natural as nature intended". They make good repeat customers for the next year or two before they either give up or wise up.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> PS I just introduced myself on the forum here.


in witch you say


Sean Govan said:


> My name is Sean Govan. I've been keeping bees for 3 seasons and it's getting more and more enjoyable as I make fewer and fewer mistakes. I have a long way to go.


my best response is this picture










> Don't be afraid to offend.


I don't intend to offend, but I do have a confrontive teaching style so here goes 

How many years grafting experience do you have and why do you feel your product is superior? Ie are you weighing out your virgins etc to validate you methods

How many poor quality new queens did you pinch this year? last year? if the answer is none to few you have a problem. Some produces pinch upwards of 25% to insure only a quality product leaves there yard.
How many nucs did you overwinter last year? what was your survival rates? how many nuc are you overintering this year?
why do I ask? target market dates
your talking about selling a"proven" queen ... meaning her brood is emerging so at least 20+14+16 thats 50 days (emerging brood form eggs+queen emerging form cell to laying+ egg to emerging queen)
the 1st large shipment of imported nucs hit the denver metro april 4th last year(russians out of GA) .. to have a "proven" queen in a spring nuc to compete against that I would have to start grafting mid february(the 14th)... not going to happen
to even just have a laying queen with capped brood so I know she is not a drone layer thats 38 days so Feb 26... that's not happing and early spring weather can easily shift that back another week

Point was to offer what your suggesting, your going to need to be selling overwintered nucs... or have a good enuff product people are willing to wait 6-7-8 weeks longer for it compared to other sources.
beekeepers don't want to wait, and some times nucs/packages sell out so your


> will convince subscribers to plunk down a nuc deposit when I finally tell them "x nucs will be ready three weeks from today!" T


may be very problematic if your saying it 3 weeks after the imports were delivered, those imports had deposits and in many cases full payment put down in dec and jan,one outfit out here started taking orders in late Oct...
Very few people are going to sit and wait on you, hoping you have enuff that you can fill their order while staring at the possibility that if they don't get nucs form you when you say you have some (do to your popularity, or spring failure) they will be left with out bees that year do to everyone elce being sold out months ago. There will be some, but you better have a darn good product with well raized and bred queens, or there will be a lot less of them next year

The flip side is also true, there will be those who waited too long, and are desprait for what ever they can get at whatever price

$250 is steep for a nuc, I get you marking position... but they better perform. Don't forget the vaule of a nuc drops as the season goes on, the demand goes down and the competition goes up as a bunch of people make a swarm control split

It seems like your putting a big focus on marketing. If you have a good product, people will find you, especially at the start if you have a reputation of being a sold beekeeper and thats key to you customer "hand holding " strategy... problem is you don't have that rep, and your not that sold beekeeper (yet) so that realy should be goal #1 becomeing the best beekeeper you can be, some one worthy listing to..
Last year I sold a few queens, mosty people who knew me and knew I was raising for my own use..
this year I just did a simple facebook page, and as gone2seed points out i got mobbed, sold all that I had . I had been around speaking to the clubs, hosting webinars, grooming my rep and setting the stage to become seen as that "solid" beekeeper.

Next.. put pen to paper take a hard look at how many you would have to sell a year to meet you financial goals and what kinda of resources
how many new boxes, how new yards you may find the task very daunting when you see what it takes...


When you click on your website the home page has a nice picture that fills my screen, nothing comes up under the shop and I completely missed to scroll down on the homepage to see the nuc sales....

no one on the internet needs to know the street address were you and your family live a town will suffice


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

I think msl has provided good feedback. $250 does seem steep for nucs coming from someone who is just starting to produce them. I sell mine on Craigslist and sold all that I had available this past year for $175, and thought that was on the upper end. Nuc production can be iffy. Graft too soon and a late cold snap can set you back several weeks. It is best to have a good number of overwintered nucs which you can sell in April or early May and then sell spring nucs as they build to your standards.


----------



## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

MSL, great explanation & questions How many nucleus colonies are we talking about? Don’t forget about the amount of disciplined time this takes in the field, & your promise to respond/help, guarantee, etc., some people will take advantage of this = more time & money. In the end, let your product be the Marketer


----------



## G3farms (Jun 13, 2009)

I sold nucs for about three years and could not keep them. Advertised on craigslist about two weeks before they were ready and were sold out almost immediately. That was about six years ago and still get a call every now and then for nucs. Weather plays a huge part in all of this, like was said a cold snap or even several days of rain can (and will) set you back a week or maybe more


----------



## gone2seed (Sep 18, 2011)

Let me add this. The thing that will hold you back is drawn comb. You will need a number of colonies devoted exclusively to drawing comb. Either that or you will need a large number of colonies from which you are cycling out older comb. Bob Binnie at Blue Ridge Honey company has a good youtube video on making nucs.


----------



## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

I wish you all the best, and I love your enthusiasm. I also don't wish to remove the favor of God from this equation, as I fully believe much of what has materialized in my life is based on it. 

That said, I would you caution to set goals and ramp up over a longer time frame. I talked with someone a few months ago who has been keeping bees (for a living) for 15-20 years. He had sold too many nucs and just as @gone2seed said, he was dreading coming into next spring because of the inevitable lack of timely drawn comb. He keeps around 120 colonies, is frugal (very frugal) and I'm satisfied his home is paid for, and he has no minor children. 

I agree that you can probably sell nucs for more $ than average (regardless of any claims of quality) if timed correctly. But in quantities large enough to raise a family.?.? 

In my opinion, the hardest part of farming is farming. The 3 cows site had the following testimonial:

“We will see an increase at the bottom line of $1000 a week and I think I can cut my hours of labor by 25 hours a week. It is almost to good to be true.”

I think these folks are marketing marketing, and don't care how they sell it. If anyone had a proven, verifiable method for doing the above, they could write their own ticket. 

I don't disagree with much of what you said. I have a friend that made a lot of money with a web-based business and the turning point was capturing email addresses and occasionally emailing offers. I have some clients that are not really computer savvy, but have integrated this into their marketing plan (and a community/social piece) and they have sold/shipped crazy amounts of plants. However, they had generations of experience and they still had to grow/produce these plants. Just set a goal for this next year and see where you are. Don't quit your day job if you have one, until you are making enough to pay most of your household expenses and then only if your extra time can equate to the difference.... an old man's advice.


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

This is all good food for thought, thank you.


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

msl said:


> my best response is this picture
> View attachment 61262


OK. I guess I'll enter my pit of disillusionment next spring, then. Thank you for sharing this picture.



msl said:


> How many years grafting experience do you have and why do you feel your product is superior? Ie are you weighing out your virgins etc to validate you methods


Next spring will be my first time grafting. I feel the product is superior because the majority of the comb will be 1 or 2 years old, with tons of capped brood, and sub-par nucs / queens will be culled. I'll probably play it extremely safe by underbooking my first wave of nucs by 50%. Even Bob Binnie underbooks his by 20%.Also, since the queens will have been laying for 3+weeks, supercedure rates should be pretty low.



msl said:


> How many poor quality new queens did you pinch this year? last year? if the answer is none to few you have a problem. Some produces pinch upwards of 25% to insure only a quality product leaves there yard.


Thanks, good to know.




msl said:


> How many nucs did you overwinter last year? what was your survival rates? how many nuc are you overintering this year?
> why do I ask? target market dates


6 nucs, 100%, 46




msl said:


> your talking about selling a"proven" queen ... meaning her brood is emerging so at least 20+14+16 thats 50 days (emerging brood form eggs+queen emerging form cell to laying+ egg to emerging queen)


Yes. I suppose I should mention that on my site.




msl said:


> the 1st large shipment of imported nucs hit the denver metro april 4th last year(russians out of GA) .. to have a "proven" queen in a spring nuc to compete against that I would have to start grafting mid february(the 14th)... not going to happen
> to even just have a laying queen with capped brood so I know she is not a drone layer thats 38 days so Feb 26... that's not happing and early spring weather can easily shift that back another week
> 
> Point was to offer what your suggesting, your going to need to be selling overwintered nucs... or have a good enuff product people are willing to wait 6-7-8 weeks longer for it compared to other sources.
> ...


I'll deal with that by not taking deposits or having a pickup date until 3 weeks before each set of nucs is ready. I'll pick up the people who didn't order on time from somebody else. Demand should not be a problem on my scale.




msl said:


> $250 is steep for a nuc, I get you marking position... but they better perform. Don't forget the vaule of a nuc drops as the season goes on, the demand goes down and the competition goes up as a bunch of people make a swarm control split


At my scale, I probably won't have to change the price. But I can.



msl said:


> It seems like your putting a big focus on marketing. If you have a good product, people will find you, especially at the start if you have a reputation of being a sold beekeeper and thats key to you customer "hand holding " strategy... problem is you don't have that rep, and your not that sold beekeeper (yet) so that realy should be goal #1 becomeing the best beekeeper you can be, some one worthy listing to..
> Last year I sold a few queens, mosty people who knew me and knew I was raising for my own use..
> this year I just did a simple facebook page, and as gone2seed points out i got mobbed, sold all that I had . I had been around speaking to the clubs, hosting webinars, grooming my rep and setting the stage to become seen as that "solid" beekeeper.


The image and rep that I want to develop is someone who (1) sells good nucs that are set to explode, and (2) educates his customers on how to never have to buy bees again. Because while I don't mind repeat customers, I do mind if I sell them bees that they are going to kill within a season and have no bees left. Teaching them how to (1) kill their mites, (2) make sure they're dead, and (3) make sure that their bees have enough food, is a valuable service that lays the foundation for the customer's success. If I can make people feel that I want their success, and gain their trust by giving them information in advance, then I should have plenty of customers. The focus on marketing is to have so many wannabe customers that I can cull the ones I don't want. Like people who have done zero research. People who want to go treatment free in their first year with 2 hives. People who are natural born complainers.



msl said:


> When you click on your website the home page has a nice picture that fills my screen, nothing comes up under the shop and I completely missed to scroll down on the homepage to see the nuc sales....


Are you saying that you see no text on the homepage? I figure I have plenty of time to set up nuc deposits on the shop page.

Thanks for the thorough answer.


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

gone2seed said:


> Let me add this. The thing that will hold you back is drawn comb. You will need a number of colonies devoted exclusively to drawing comb. Either that or you will need a large number of colonies from which you are cycling out older comb. Bob Binnie at Blue Ridge Honey company has a good youtube video on making nucs.


Bob Binnie is amazing. I have watched several of his videos over and over. I called him on the phone and asked for his business advice. I offered to pay him for his time, but he declined. His advice was a gold mine, and I took a lot of notes.


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

MSL, can you give me an opinion on the refund/return policy on my homepage?


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

Gone2seed, I plan to just allow extra time for them to draw comb. Each split can draw its own comb.


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> That said, I would you caution to set goals and ramp up over a longer time frame. I talked with someone a few months ago who has been keeping bees (for a living) for 15-20 years. He had sold too many nucs and just as @gone2seed said, he was dreading coming into next spring because of the inevitable lack of timely drawn comb. He keeps around 120 colonies, is frugal (very frugal) and I'm satisfied his home is paid for, and he has no minor children.


That's about the maximum I see myself getting to. Our living expenses are low, and someday soon they will be _very _low.


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> I think these folks are marketing marketing, and don't care how they sell it. If anyone had a proven, verifiable method for doing the above, they could write their own ticket.


I'll let you know if it works. It seems to be working for other people whose products are harder to sell than nucs, so I believe it will.


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

You should edit your refund policy to include a live queen and a substantial number of live bees upon return to remove any ambiguity. My nuc sales are BYOB, bring your own box (hive). Inspections are performed as the frames are transfered. Customer has the right to reject any nuc on the spot, once it is loaded into their box on their truck, they are their bees. No refunds if they kill them on the way home, or squish the queen on the first inspection.


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

JWPalmer said:


> You should edit your refund policy to include a live queen and a substantial number of live bees upon return to remove any ambiguity. My nuc sales are BYOB, bring your own box (hive). Inspections are performed as the frames are transfered. Customer has the right to reject any nuc on the spot, once it is loaded into their box on their truck, they are their bees. No refunds if they kill them on the way home, or squish the queen on the first inspection.


 I guess if they brought the box back with three bees to get a refund then that would be stretching it. You are right.

How often do newbies squish a queen in their first three days? I'm sure it happens, but I've never squished a queen in my first three _years_. I've just lost tons of them into the wild blue yonder while figuring out how to pick them up. 🤣

If I have one customer who unwittingly kills a queen, decides there wasn't one to start with, and asks for a refund, I think I'll just give them a refund. They will be back and they will probably spread the word. My margin is big enough that I can afford to make the odd one happy, I hope.

My employer sells custom sinks and showers that are "guaranteed forever." Our sinks and showers _never _look good forever, yet there is only a small percentage of people who request repair or replacement. Yet our guarantee continues to drive sales because people know they have the option.


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

JWPalmer,

I want to have one pickup day per month at the most. I want everybody to be there at a certain time to get their nucs. If someone does a no call no show, then they don't get their deposit back. There's a thirty minute window for latecomers. They show up, pay the balance, I help them load their nucs, we all go home.

I figure the three-day guarantee will make them comfortable with my no-inspection policy. If a couple people bring back their nucs, I will still have saved a tremendous amount of time by not allowing newbies to inspect before buying. If they are comfortable with the standards described on my homepage, then they will be thrilled with what I load on their truck. If they are the kind of people who are suspicious of everything and really _need _to inspect before buying, then I would rather let them be someone else's customer.

With my thirty-minute window, everyone who wanted to inspect would be doing it at the same time. If I let people inspect, someone might drop a frame, or roll a queen. Some foragers and new fliers coming out to orient would be lost. Some newbies might not feel comfortable with a bunch of people opening nucs all over the place, unless they have a beesuit with them. Not only that, but some people who don't feel the need to inspect might change their minds when they see other people inspecting, further dragging out the process.

The "nuc instructions" button near the top of my homepage links to this pdf, which I will print out and give to every customer on pickup day to minimize casualties.

Now that you mention it, I will add this policy to my homepage to be perfectly transparent.


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

msl said:


> When you click on your website the home page has a nice picture that fills my screen, nothing comes up under the shop


Based on this, I'm moving my shop page out of the main menu until I figure out how to get nuc deposits on there. Thanks.


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

MSL, you mentioned competition a couple of times. What if I have a model where competition is a non-issue? I ask because Charlotte Smith teaches that relationships built with people make you unique, so that in a sense you _have _no competition. I think if you do it right, people don't look at your prices and they wouldn't dream of buying from anyone else but you. I've been plowing through her free content for the past 2 years, and observing her techniques being used in other businesses, and I really think she is on to something.

Anyway, demand for nucs is high, and I'm not competing for every available customer that exists. I'm only competing for the cream of the crop.😄


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Sean Govan said:


> At my scale, I probably won't have to .





Sean Govan said:


> should not be a problem on my scale.


not at the scale you were this year... the scale you will be. You said you wanted to do this full time pay your bills, feed your family etc

Work hard in 2021, invest in some equipment, draw a bunch of comb etc and you could theoretically have a few hundred nucs for sale in 2022, right in line with your gole

Seems like you have enuff bees, here is what a skilled beekeeper can do with the type of resources you currently have


> In the Spring of 2011,1 set up 50 nice over wintered, four over four, two-story nucleus colonies in double nucleus boxes. Each nucleus was given a nucleus super with four additional combs, for a total of 12 combs each. Beginning in early May, I began removing sealed brood with adhering bees to strengthen my cell building colonies. Every four days, starting with the first nucleus, I removed two or three frames of brood from each nucleus until the day’s brood requirement was filled. Four days later, I repeated the process, harvesting brood from the nuclei next in line. My intention was to remove enough brood from each to fill my needs, but not enough to significantly weaken the colonies. I needed them to be strong enough to fill combs of brood quickly, but not so strong they would swarm before I returned for another harvest. From May 9 until June 19 I harvested 245 combs of brood to set up my 35 cell builders, each receiving seven combs of sealed brood and two of honey. Then, after the last cell builders had been set up, I switched the focus of my brood harvest to making the Summer’s nucleus colonies. Those 50 nuclei gave me enough additional combs of brood and bees to establish 330 more nucleus colonies. Think of it! More than 900 combs of brood and bees harvested from only 50 over-wintered nucs.


- Mike Plamer


https://hcbeekeepers.org/a-better-way-by-mike-palmer/https://hcbeekeepers.org/a-better-way-by-mike-palmer/




like many things in beekeeping, the limitation is often the bee keeper's skill and resources




Sean Govan said:


> I plan to just allow extra time for them to draw comb. Each split can draw its own comb


Not if you want to turn them around in a timely manner, and you need drawn comb to replaces the combs you pull from the brood factories if you want to harvest those combs filled with supplies and brood in a timely manner for the next round

In realty the nuc business is taking frames with foundation at a spitball cost of $2 each, and drawing and filling them them and selling them a year later at $20 each + a $30-40 queen




Sean Govan said:


> That's about the maximum I see myself getting to. Our living expenses are low, and someday soon they will be _very _low.


I don't see 120 hives paying for 3 teenage to collage age kids and covering both you and your wife. There is a reason the USDA considers under 300 a "sideline"
in a perfect year yes.....not so much in a year mother nature smacks you down, you catch an EFB out break and can sell nothing, or what ever...its agriculture.. 




Sean Govan said:


> . Teaching them how to (1) kill their mites, (2) make sure they're dead, and (3) make sure that their bees have enough food, is a valuable service that lays the foundation for the customer's success. If I can make people feel that I want their success, and gain their trust by giving them information in advance, then I should have plenty of customers. The focus on marketing is to have so many wannabe customers that I can cull the ones I don't want. Like people who have done zero research. People who want to go treatment free in their first year with 2 hives. People who are natural born complainers.


2 thoughts...
at your given price point I would want to be selling at least 200 nucs a year more like 300 quitting a day job, at 1/2 hour of "hand holding" and "screening" per sale and you would spend about a month doing nothing but customer service, thats time your not beekeeping...

I guarantee the largest customer base is the one your talking about culling... you start telling a bunch of people who want to by bees to pound sand and you will likely get bad word of mouth and time spent



Sean Govan said:


> My margin is big enough that I can afford to make the odd one happy, I hope.


if it was the odd one... sure
have you met new beekeepers?

Parting advice..
go sell 50+ nucs in 2021... if you are as good as you think you are it should be no problem, and you will have better answers then from strangers on the internet

You have put a lot of focus on strong healthy nucs that explode... the foundation for that is well raised and bred queens.. that means grafting and skilled cell building, thats a STEEP learning curve for many

you seem to think beekeeping/agriculture is easy, marketing is hard... been there.... I suspect your in for a wake up call...


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

MSL,

You give me food for thought, Sir.



msl said:


> at your given price point I would want to be selling at least 200 nucs a year more like 300 quitting a day job, at 1/2 hour of "hand holding" and "screening" per sale and you would spend about a month doing nothing but customer service, thats time your not beekeeping...


3 rounds out of 120, allowing for losses and culls, could easily be around 200, right?

I see myself directing people with questions to people who are more successful and experienced than me. I don't plan to be anyone's mentor. If someone emails me, "Sean, so-and-so says that feeding sugar is bad for my bees," for example, I'll email them a link to that one Bob Binnie video. Eventually I will have a list of the most common questions with the high-quality links I send people to copy and paste. . If someone seems really distraught or has a really complicated question that requires typing, I'll just call them. Phone calls are more efficient than typing.

I eventually want them to screen themselves.



msl said:


> you seem to think beekeeping/agriculture is easy, marketing is hard... been there.... I suspect your in for a wake up call...


Thanks for reigning in my youthful enthusiasm. I'll be listening for that wake up call. To be honest, marketing is hard for me right now because it is kind of boring. Beekeeping may be more tiring and require more skill, but I enjoy it a lot. At least for now.



msl said:


> I guarantee the largest customer base is the one your talking about culling... you start telling a bunch of people who want to by bees to pound sand and you will likely get bad word of mouth and time spent


Well, I can always change my mind. And, I guess the only kind I don't want to deal with, period, is people who are just sour and negative about life. I wish them the best, and I am sure that they will find what they are looking for...somewhere else. In fact, I can honorably and respectfully advise them on where to get nucs that meet their needs, and wish them luck.

Which of these categories do you see the most of? 1. People who have done zero research. 2. People who want to go treatment free in their first year with 2 hives. 3. People who are natural born complainers.



msl said:


> Not if you want to turn them around in a timely manner, and you need drawn comb to replaces the combs you pull from the brood factories if you want to harvest those combs filled with supplies and brood in a timely manner for the next round


Why not? How do you define a timely manner? This year, I split my 6 spring nucs a bunch of times until I hit 60. Then I reduced it down to 46 really good ones for winter. They all drew comb so fast that I'm convinced I could have gone into winter with at least twice as many if I hadn't screwed up so much.



msl said:


> you seem to think beekeeping/agriculture is easy, marketing is hard... been there....


You've been there. Can you elaborate, or link to a post where you've elaborated?

Thank you for questioning me, I hope you continue to answer. Can you please give your opinion on my pickup policy on the previous page?


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

MSL,



msl said:


> I guarantee the largest customer base is the one your talking about culling...


Do you think that I should discount the plastic foundation and not the foundationless?


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Sean, I would not discount either. Offering a discout implies that one is inferior to the other. You are marketing high quality nucs. Simply give the customer a choice. I sell mine as mostly foundationless frames that cost me $1 each to build and string with fishing line, including a waxed starter strip. Plastic is more expensive, and sometimes slower for the bees to build out.


----------



## John Davis (Apr 29, 2014)

I agree with JW, discounts for foundation type is not necessary.
Folks that think "natural" like the idea of foundationless.
I make some foundationless frames each year, I also open each nuc and transfer frames to the customers hive in my yard. It gives me a chance to demonstrate proper handling techniques as well as show the customer that everything is there and answer their questions.
In my experience taking the time to talk with folks and teach them, answer questions etc is a very helpful thing in building "reputation". In my opinion just referring folks to Internet sources of "experts" may not help build to your goal but does keep you away from time with people.
From a planning stand point I find that using a loss of 20-25% at each step of Queen rearing is realistic. Not all grafts are accepted, not all cells emerge, not all Queens return successfully. It is easy to pinch extras. Overall if you average 75% of grafts making successful Queens you will be doing very well.
Often folks learning to graft find it takes practice.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Sean Govan said:


> Do you think that I should discount the plastic foundation and not the foundationless?


I would say foundationless attracts the exact people you say you want to cull



Sean Govan said:


> You've been there. Can you elaborate, or link to a post where you've elaborated?


every time I think I have it figured out the bees teach me a lesson I remember having a few good years TF.. over winterd 3 out of 3 my 1st year... I was on the top of the world and thought I knew it all WAM.. 
I have been (1/2) of you...
2017 I was on top of the world I overwinter 6 out of 6 nucs form 2016. ran 3 for production and by fall I had 33
2018 I was ready to rock, I was going to be the next local nuc king !
then the hives didn't build up...then the reason why became clear... WAM EFB out break... quarantine, no nuc sales this year... then the EFB didn't act like the books say (some of these new strains suck,bad) feed, wait for the flow, shook swarming, etc all failed... I was having mounting summer losses and started a course of oxytet... antibiotics wipe the bees gut microbes... and there are some good ones that help hold nosema in check... and when you treat late in the season the good microbes don't get re established in time to get passed on to the winter bees.... WAM 80% losses

2019 of the 7 that made it only 4 are any good at all, the rest are weak and barely alive, dinks
if it wasn't for the 2 tiny outyards away for the problem I would really have been hosed.., If it wasn't for catching a swarm that I used to stock my mini mateing nucs, I realy would have been hurting!! I didn't have laying queens till the 1st week in july and I slowly clawed my way back

2020 was well 2020... super late killing fost took out most of the spring forage. not just the blooms, the buds for later in the year as well folowed by an extreme drought, cell build was done by mid july... the bees had enuff. Still I ran my numbers up and sold 75 queens, but the feed costs have been painfulll as was over selling and not keeping enuff queens for my own use

and now.... a guy next door to the nuc yard "forgot" to treat.. 24 out of 24 dead.... and while I had the mites under control before hand, I am now over run and if I Only take 50-60% losses on those nucs I will be lucky... 3 weeks or so back the hives really slowed taking syrup... as dry as its been (I have been feeding since mid july) I realy should have taken that as a warning sign they had feed coming in from elsewhere ...

In a nut shell it sounds like you have had a good/great year, but thats agriculture and the next year could be an eye opener... if it was just as easy as splitting hives, there wouldn't be a nuc market

back to the AG example... sure the main yard is having a hard time.. I had one out yard that had 100% survival (one out of 1...lol) and now has grown by 500%
from the one over winter hive I now have a double, 2 singles, and 2 5x5 nucs and harvested 60lb of honey from the combo of them when most people around here got nothing .. if that was my only yard I would on the top of the world and proud of how good a beekeeper I am....
but its just a good year for that yard, next year could be a bad year there.
Last year I only got 8 pounds off the one hive and no spits!!!


----------



## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

Sean Govan said:


> That's about the maximum I see myself getting to. Our living expenses are low, and someday soon they will be _very _low.


Keeping bees, your living expenses will go up allot more than planned. Grow slow, and steady over several years. At about year 6, if successful.. go full blast if your doing very well. Dont.quit your day job till you make more from your bees, over several years in a row, than you make at your day job. Growth cost allot, and nucs require allot of sugar, and resources.


----------



## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

Sean Govan said:


> My goal is to have nuc sales feed my kids and pay my bills by 2022. Over the past 3 years, I have sweated my way through the worst part of the beekeeping learning curve (I think). This winter, I am hitting the marketing learning curve, so I can be ready to start selling nucs in spring.
> 
> So I bought Charlotte Smith's online farm marketing course before the price went up (3cowmarketing.com) and followed her advice to set up a website with Squarespace and an email list with Mailchimp. My strategy is to have people land on the website and subscribe to the email list so that they can get notified when I have a date for nucs to be ready. Then every 2 weeks, email them something interesting that will help them succeed. Nothing sales-y. In every email, I'll invite them to reply. Then I'll answer every reply. Personal contact and my obvious desire to help them succeed (rather than just sell a box of bees) will convince subscribers to plunk down a nuc deposit when I finally tell them "x nucs will be ready three weeks from today!" Then continue to provide informational support as often as they ask after purchase. The continued assistance will help them stay happy and spread the word that here is value for money.
> 
> ...


Is 3cow marketing your Site? Great ideas in marketing your farm and farm products. I review further. Ill go to your other site asap also. Thanks for posting your links.


----------



## Richinbama (Jan 15, 2018)

Sean Govan said:


> My goal is to have nuc sales feed my kids and pay my bills by 2022. Over the past 3 years, I have sweated my way through the worst part of the beekeeping learning curve (I think). This winter, I am hitting the marketing learning curve, so I can be ready to start selling nucs in spring.
> 
> So I bought Charlotte Smith's online farm marketing course before the price went up (3cowmarketing.com) and followed her advice to set up a website with Squarespace and an email list with Mailchimp. My strategy is to have people land on the website and subscribe to the email list so that they can get notified when I have a date for nucs to be ready. Then every 2 weeks, email them something interesting that will help them succeed. Nothing sales-y. In every email, I'll invite them to reply. Then I'll answer every reply. Personal contact and my obvious desire to help them succeed (rather than just sell a box of bees) will convince subscribers to plunk down a nuc deposit when I finally tell them "x nucs will be ready three weeks from today!" Then continue to provide informational support as often as they ask after purchase. The continued assistance will help them stay happy and spread the word that here is value for money.
> 
> ...


I really like the overall content of your web page. Very informative. You should have a page for orders, it assume that sales are fairly easy, with them contacting you directly, and by email. I'd like to see more pictures of an active apiary. Overall very nice
How many years experience in beekeeping? Mabye this could be mentioned on your page? Also, I do feel your prices do allow for big profit. But, pricing is very steep for.most new beeks, and experienced beeks looking for influx of new stock may not bite that much in price. My area a 5 frame nuc around 125.00 to 150.00 . If equipment is brought to site and transferred. 175.00 if you supply jester box. I hope you do well, and hope my rookie comments help a little. Rich


----------



## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Sean Govan said:


> That's about the maximum I see myself getting to. Our living expenses are low, and someday soon they will be _very _low.


Now you're getting somewhere, keep your overhead in the dirt. Also, from 6 to 46 nucs in a year gives me a little more hope that you haven't made yourself rich on paper. I've spent probably half of my adult life (37 years) actively running my own business(es). Made stupid, costly, avoidable mistakes that hurt myself and my family. So I probably spend a bit more time counseling younger folks who are full of energy and passion but may not see the tacks in the road. Take care, js


----------



## aran (May 20, 2015)

Lots of good advice given already. Ill add my 2 cents worth.
Last year i sold a few nucs ( 30-40 i think).
Few observations:
1. The majority of the folks buying nucs are brand new to the hobby and really know little to nothing about beekeeping. There are a LOT of very basic questions which do take time to answer both before and after the sale. I get texts every week from the buyers with questions and I dont know how I would feel about simply sending them a youtube link.
2. Raising quality nucs and grafting and rearing quality queens ( queens that you would feel comfortable keeping in your production colonies or that you would feel confident presenting to your own beekeeping mentor as a quality queen for their hives) is not easy nor are those skills quick to learn. My grafting queen selection/grafting/cell starter/finisher/queen evaluation and culling of anything less than an outstanding queen that i would ( and do) add to my production colonies process is now finally at a point where I feel comfortable that i can produce as good or better queens than i can buy.
And this has taken me the last several years to achieve.
3. It is a VERY time consuming hobby without trying to make $ off it. I cant imagine the stress and pressure if my mortgage or feeding my family depended on it especially with a target of 120 hives total.
I have 60 hives and its a ton of work and time and im sure im not making much money off them. It all seems to go back into the hobby.


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

MSL, thanks, that's a scary story and I have re read your last post several times.



gone2seed said:


> I believe you may be over thinking this.


My wife agrees with you.



gone2seed said:


> One thing you will find is that a lot of purchasers are dreamers who are going to do ,"everything natural as nature intended". They make good repeat customers for the next year or two before they either give up or wise up.


I hate the idea of selling bees to people who are just going to kill them, but I'll give them my best advice and warning and sell them bees anyway. Like you said, failure might make them wise up, and mistakes are part of the learning process. They'll remember what I said when their bees are dead.

I'm not against teatment-free beekeeping, but it has to be done intelligently. Even with the Bond method. Bob Binnie had three treatment-free yards for seven years, Bond method. Losses the first two years were 50%, then 80%, then slowly better every year after that. By the end, the survivors were making extra honey, he said. But he stopped because someone else moved a bunch of colonies in next door to those yards. Treatment free is a goal that I have for myself someday... after I get good at beekeeping.



joebeewhisperer said:


> That said, I would you caution to set goals and ramp up over a longer time frame.


After this, I'll probably double at the most.



Richinbama said:


> Grow slow, and steady over several years. At about year 6, if successful.. go full blast if your doing very well. Dont.quit your day job till you make more from your bees, over several years in a row, than you make at your day job. Growth cost allot, and nucs require allot of sugar, and resources.





joebeewhisperer said:


> Don't quit your day job if you have one, until you are making enough to pay most of your household expenses and then only if your extra time can equate to the difference.... an old man's advice.


Thank you. I will listen to your advice.



John Davis said:


> I make some foundationless frames each year, I also open each nuc and transfer frames to the customers hive in my yard. It gives me a chance to demonstrate proper handling techniques as well as show the customer that everything is there and answer their questions.


I keep wondering if my no-inspection policy is going to shoot me in the foot. I'm trying to plan the best way to manage my time. Maybe at pickup time, I could open one nuc and show everybody at once.



John Davis said:


> In my experience taking the time to talk with folks and teach them, answer questions etc is a very helpful thing in building "reputation".


I'm sure you are right.

What if I did my own YouTube videos to answer my customer's questions?



John Davis said:


> It is easy to pinch extras.


Way too many is better than not quite enough, eh?



Richinbama said:


> Is 3cow marketing your Site?


No



Richinbama said:


> How many years experience in beekeeping? Mabye this could be mentioned on your page?


Only 3 seasons, it's written near the top



joebeewhisperer said:


> Now you're getting somewhere, keep your overhead in the dirt.


Yeah, I hate the idea of high input



aran said:


> The majority of the folks buying nucs are brand new to the hobby and really know little to nothing about beekeeping. There are a LOT of very basic questions which do take time to answer both before and after the sale. I get texts every week from the buyers with questions and I dont know how I would feel about simply sending them a youtube link.


OK. Part of the point of my email list is to educate them en masse, both before and after the sale. I hope it works.



aran said:


> It is a VERY time consuming hobby without trying to make $ off it. I cant imagine the stress and pressure if my mortgage or feeding my family depended on it especially with a target of 120 hives total.


You know what I love about Ian Steppler? His systems. I want to implement systems to get as much done as possible in as little time as possible.



aran said:


> I have 60 hives and its a ton of work and time and im sure im not making much money off them. It all seems to go back into the hobby.


At least I don't have to harvest honey, lol. I _hate _harvesting honey. Making splits, that I love.


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

MSL, that was a painful story. You obviously have grit and love beekeeping.



msl said:


> then the hives didn't build up...then the reason why became clear... WAM EFB out break... quarantine, no nuc sales this year... then the EFB didn't act like the books say (some of these new strains suck,bad) feed, wait for the flow, shook swarming, etc all failed... I was having mounting summer losses and started a course of oxytet... antibiotics wipe the bees gut microbes... and there are some good ones that help hold nosema in check... and when you treat late in the season the good microbes don't get re established in time to get passed on to the winter bees.... WAM 80% losses


Did this happen even with constant feeding of light sucrose syrup to build up? Do you have any thoughts on why they got the EFB in the first place? I don't know anything, I'm just curious. I budget a lot of money for sugar and feed almost anytime they'll take feed.


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> Did this happen even with constant feeding of light sucrose syrup to build up


yep
hygienic stock removing sick larvae before they were visibly ill. they could hold it in check till the nuce bee pop dipped too much (form removing too much brood) to keep things clean and then the infection would show symptoms and the hive would go critical.. So on the surface all looked good, the hive just wasn't growing like expected



> Do you have any thoughts on why they got the EFB in the first place?


4,000 packages and nucs come in to the denver metro a year, take you pick.....
the neighbor had 100% losses winter of 16-17 as well and brought in a lot of nucs form different sources as replacements in 2017... I also brought in a swarm in 2017 that failed to thrive and diwilned away.. could have been either. I used to have good luck swarm trapping (6 off 2 trees) within flight radius of this yard , but the traps went silent and stayed that was 2018 on so it qould have been an area wide issue. the last crop of 2017 nucs had a lot of "weak" ones and got combined in to better hives (cringe, I may have done my self in there) and 2019 there was a large up tic in EFB in the metro are.. and a good chunk of the county as well...


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

JW Palmer,

I think you've given some good advice. I changed my homepage to offer three choices with no discounts: foundationless, sturdy black plastic, and a mix.


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

John Davis, I think you are right.



John Davis said:


> In my experience taking the time to talk with folks and teach them, answer questions etc is a very helpful thing in building "reputation". In my opinion just referring folks to Internet sources of "experts" may not help build to your goal but does keep you away from time with people.


What do you think of this strategy: Offer the option to return your nuc for a refund, don't provide the opportunity for everyone to inspect their nucs before taking them home (too much time), but teach a hands-on class at pickup time? My homepage now says:

*Refunds and returns:*
I think you will like your nucs, but if you get home and discover that your nucs are not the *quality *you expected, contact me within 3 days and bring them back within a week for a full refund. (We must first arrange a time for you to return them). Note: the nucs must still have live bees in them when they are returned. If the bees overheat and die on the way here, for example, then I can’t issue a refund.

*Inspecting nucs when you pick them up:*
There will be no opportunity to open and inspect the nucs on pickup day. However, I will personally make sure that they conform to the standards described on this page. If you get home and discover that they don’t, then let me know right away.

*Free hands-on bee class:*
At pickup time, I will open a hive and teach you how to identify honey, pollen, and different stages of brood. I will demonstrate good handling techniques, and you will get a chance to practice before going home with your nuc. (Bring your own beesuit/protective gear). In this short class, I cannot teach you everything you need to know about bee biology or beekeeping. There is simply too much information. If you rely on this class as your only source of knowledge, you *will *fail as a beekeeper._ Please do your research before buying bees from me or anyone else._

*Mentoring:*
I can’t be an on-call mentor who comes out to people’s houses to help them with their bees. But if you want to come out and help me with my bee work some time, let me know. We may be able to schedule something. You may pick up some useful tips if you are truly brand new.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Interesting thread.
IMO If I cannot inspect then, I ain't buyin. I do not have the time or the patience to "come back in 3 days"
You need to move the frames into their gear any way do the inspect then, while gabbing and trying to teach.
FYI I once drove to Iowa from Michigan to pick up 4 NUCS, I was not going to bring them back.

can do a 10:30 pick up and a 12:30 or 1pm and get 2 in a day. BTW I would do a 0800 pick up as the day progresses the field bees are out, And/or shut them up the night before.

I would show them the whole thing all frames and then do no refunds. IMO you are going to be getting a lot of them back.
newbies loose bees it just is that way. 

Consider a 10 or 15 buck off coupon for return customers for the next season or a late season NUC Keeping a customer who every spring "needs" bees in not a bad thing. you are selling them correct? why the distaste for someone killing your NUC, Leave the emotion out of it.

Good luck,
Agree with others do 20 or 30 next year then 40-70 the year after, issues with doing volume will come up and can be solved before you have 100's of NUCs affected. couple years to get the queen thing worked out may also help.

have them if possible bring their box over for the class and leave a deposit. timed properly may help with the flow of the pickup. If You have their Bucks and their box they are more likely to come back. Could video/zoom the transfer if you want to do it a couple days prior to pick up,, so the frames seal in nice. for the ride.

the white plastic NUC boxes are "ok" but I still had about 50 bees in the car before I got home from Iowa.

try some things,, cull what did not work expand what does.

A quality NUC IMO has the number 1 "feature" of a really good or great queen,, get that right and the marketing will take care of itself. maybe line up a good queen producer to get you 20 a week for a few years, to get started.

GG


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Gray Goose said:


> have them if possible bring their box over for the class and leave a deposit.


I would not buy from anyone(not that I by bees) who does that, or frame exchanges or any other of that malarkey, they arn't playing smart
I sure don't want used frames and equipment from dozens of other beekeepers whoes bees died form who knows what in my nuc yard



Gray Goose said:


> A quality NUC IMO has the number 1 "feature" of a really good or great queen,, get that right and the marketing will take care of itself


Agreed, as I mentioned earlier the OP has yet to graft, and that is going to be the main hurdle to producing quality nucs.


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

Gray Goose,

If I sell bees to people who expect them to simply stay alive with no effort, then I'm not really serving them. Those folks can get their bees someplace else. But if they are willing to put in the effort and then they fail anyway, then that's ok, they tried. And I will love having them as repeat customers.

I think I'll offer paid bee classes. A Beekeeping 101 class and a "how to do splits" class. Maybe a "queen-marking class," except we'll be catching and marking drones. Whoever marks the most drones gets a prize. Folks would probably have a blast. And anyone who comes to my class, meets me, and has a good time, will likely come to me when they decide to buy their first bees.


----------



## JWPalmer (May 1, 2017)

Sean, do you have any certifications or are you authorized by your state beekeeping association to teach beekeeping classes? Otherwise, my opinion is that it is simply mentoring for a fee. Nothing wrong with that, but a Beekeeping 101 class actually has a curriculum.


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

JWPalmer, thanks for the heads up, I will find out.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

msl said:


> I would not buy from anyone(not that I by bees) who does that, or frame exchanges or any other of that malarkey, they arn't playing smart
> I sure don't want used frames and equipment from dozens of other beekeepers whoes bees died form who knows what in my nuc yard


good point MSL, In My mind I was thinking of a new 5 frame NUC box.
But yes old stuff from dead outs could be an issue.
Was not thinking of frame exchanges.

GG


----------



## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

Gray Goose said:


> Was not thinking of frame exchanges.


The "good idea" fairy often whispers them in to the ear of small/new nuc operations, figger I would mention it for the Ops sake


----------



## Hoot Owl Lane Bees (Feb 24, 2012)

Shawn
I hope the nuc sales works for you, but in my experience you HAVE to be willing to be there before and after the sale.
I have been treatment free for 8 years and have very few loses now.
I have been mentoring around 25 new beekeepers in my area and was asked to start a bee club in the Branson area by the State bee club.
The Branson club has had as many as 12 people in attendance even with all that is going on.
I have been selling a few nucs a year but mostly building up my numbers.
This year I am selling most of the over wintered nuc's.
I don't do any advertising other than word of mouth and I have every nuc that meets my own standards sold in the spring. 
If your employer referred there costumer's to someone else after the sale the word would get around fast and business would plummet.

Build a relation as someone who is willing to be there in person by phone, text or in a personal hands on visit and you will have a better chance of success.

Good luck


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

Hoot Owl Lane Bees,



Hoot Owl Lane Bees said:


> I have been treatment free for 8 years and have very few loses now.


That's _awesome!_



Hoot Owl Lane Bees said:


> Build a relation as someone who is willing to be there in person by phone, text or in a personal hands on visit and you will have a better chance of success.


Point taken.


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

Enjoyed rereading this. Funny how things change.

Fast forward a few months. My pit of disillusionment is that building up all these nucs for splits is a lot of work. (85% survived winter). Forget marketing, I don't have the time between that and some other non-bee things that have come up. Forget grafting, that'll have to be next year when I get these extra-curriculars out of the way. In fact, forget customers, they can wait til next year too.

I think my slope of enlightenment will be to figure out systems to get the work done faster.

I want to hit my plateau of productivity next spring and have a base of 200 nucs to make splits from. My thought of 120 was unrealistic.


----------



## joebeewhisperer (May 13, 2020)

Sean Govan said:


> I think my slope of enlightenment will be to figure out systems to get the work done faster.
> 
> I want to hit my plateau of productivity next spring and have a base of 200 nucs to make splits from. My thought of 120 was unrealistic


Many of the folks on here are marvels at time management (at least with bees). Every commercial beek has the processes down to a science, else they wouldn't make it 2 years. 

I'm still enamored with the fun side, so ADD moments and lack of a solid plan and bookkeeping are not a big deal. I can't imagine the amount of physical and mental work that would go into making a decent living with bees. Lotta work with just a few hives. Hats off to anyone who makes this a vocation (or even a serious sideline) for any length of time.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

"I want to hit my plateau of productivity next spring and have a base of 200 nucs to make splits from. My thought of 120 was unrealistic."

unrealistic? in what way? 200 is 66 % more than 120 if 120 is unrealistic, then how is 200 better?

try to reduce the number of time you need to open the box, IE do 2 or 3 things at 1 time.

GG


----------



## Sean Govan (Jul 9, 2018)

joebeewhisperer said:


> Every commercial beek has the processes down to a science, else they wouldn't make it 2 years.


Those people are amazing.



Gray Goose said:


> 120 was unrealistic.


For making a living.


----------



## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Sean Govan said:


> Those people are amazing.
> 
> 
> 
> For making a living.


ok 120 is not enough, so are you grafting or buying queens?
hopefully getting frames by the 100 or 500 pack, getting while off season and on sale.

try for more smaller batches, yes 120 to live on is a bit light.

GG


----------

