# Trying to decide between Top Bar and Langstroth



## gflack71 (Jan 22, 2014)

I just introduced myself in the new members area. I have 3 hives I am getting this spring that are Langstroth. I want to do things as "natural" as possible as far as no chemicals or sugar water and such. While looking into the logistics of that I found many of the people who practice those methods recommend Top Bar (or Warre) hives. The proponents of Top Bar hives really got me curious as to why they like them so much. So that is one question. But I also would like to understand the "legalities" because I am in Ohio and I see there are laws about moveable frame hives and I read on here that Top Bar can be a moveable frame hive but I'm not sure how that works. And I also would like to know how much honey productivity drops (if at all) using a Top Bar hive? My husband will be able to pull pension soon and we are dreaming of using beekeeping to supplement our income. On the sites where I was reading about Top Bar hives, many were doing it for other reasons than profit so just wondered how it compares to Langstroth if hoping for profit. I hope this isn't too many questions in one. I don't have much experience with forums. If I need to ask these questions separately, please let me know 

Thanks!


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Langstroth equipment is the most popular and abundant. Top bar hive beekeepers are a relatively small percentage of the beekeeping community. Both work. It's a matter of personal preference.

If there is a club near where you live check it out. Having an adviser nearby is a good thing to have. Club members can show you first hand how things work. 

Whatever style of equipment you go with, enjoy your new hobby.


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

the intent of the removalbe frame regulations is to provide a means of inspecting the hive. a top bar hive can be inspected just as easily as a Lang. For my purposes, i went with langs. This year I am adding a horizontal hive that uses lang deep frames. i prefer the idea of extracting to crush and strain.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

I have used both Langs and topbars and while I think there are alot of neat things and potential profits to topbar beekeeping. You would have quicker and easier work using a langstroth.

Top bars are considered a legal movable frame. 

It does not take much work to make a langstroth hive. Many people on here (myself included) build everything except the frames.

Yes you will have more over head with langstroth but the management and potential profits are much sooner realized. 

Also you can be Just as natural with a langstroth hive. Just use a starter strip in the frame and you have natural comb built just like a top bar or Warre.

More importantly even seasoned pro's have a hard time switching from treating to going non treatment. 
Finding really good stock that works is priority number 1. Learning how to keep bees alive, healthy, and how to increase your own colonies would be priority number 2. Then once you have got these things down going completely treatment free I think would be good.

This is coming from a guy who started treatment free and still is treatment free with 90 colonies. The learning curve going treatment free (especially with stock that is not use to it) (and with out the ability to raise your own stock off what survives) can be really steep.

Also on sugar water. I hate feeding with a passion, BUT nature is fine with killing off 5 out of 6 swarms (on average....according to the USDA)

If you are wanting to increase hives and survive rough years you will have to feed sometimes. Very little can go a long way, but when it is needed you need to feed unless you are ok with your bees dying or not being strong enough to produce a profitable amount of honey the following spring.

Now it is wrong for beekeepers to force bees to the point of risking their health for the sake of profit but, the most important thing is that you end up helping supplement your income doing something you love!

Best of Luck!


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## Matt903 (Apr 8, 2013)

Gflack

Top bar folks are kind of a niche group. I almost said fringe, but I would not go that far. I have both types of hives. I sell top bar hives on the side, and hope to expand to Lang nucs and top bar nucs in a couple of years. What kind of business do you want to do with your bees? Honey? Nucs? Queens? Pollination? Wax products? You really need to decide this before you spend a bunch of money. I only really know of one commercial top bar operation in the country: Wyatt Mangum's, and he had numerous pollination contracts. (Google his name and his book will come up, excellent read). Top bars are legal in all states, and are easier to inspect if that helps you any. Also, others might disagree with me, but I would get out of the mindset of never feeding your bees sugar. I think all that leads to is a bunch of starved hives. My last advice is t: research research research and keep asking questions. Also sqkcrk s suggestion about finding a bee club is a great one.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

Perhaps the visual of one of the beauties I build will sway you towards the top bar camp. 

http://lakeland.craigslist.org/grd/4297883066.html

.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Five hundred bucks?!!


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## imthegrumpyone (Jun 29, 2013)

Oldtimer !!! +1, not even gold plated hardware. If I could find buyers for $500 tbh's like that I could fully retire with money in my pocket.


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

I built three of these top bar hives for last summer for a little less than 50.00 dollars each. Would have been cheaper if I used scrap/salvaged wood. Being able to build myself, and the price being better allowed me to get into a hobby that I was not sure if I would like. Even with last summer being my first, I really enjoyed using these, and learning about the bees by their use. Most of our club members run Langstroth, so I also had a few opportunities to work with that style of hive. Both are good, but I prefer the TBH


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## Bengoblue (Apr 10, 2012)

I am running both types of hives and am using this experience to learn both systems. Each system has its own unique challenges and I am learning tons. My experience would lead me to believe that if you are looking for a profit making adventure, I would suggest the Langstroth hives as they can produce serious amounts of honey. They allow you the ability to reuse frames, after they have been extracted...but, I would suggest a regular rotation of those frames as they can darken quickly and effect the color and quality of your product. Top bar hives will avail you good amounts of honey, but the most popular method of extraction is crush and strain, which forces your bees to rebuild all the comb to replace that which you took. I have read several people suggest that one way is more "natural" than the other way of beekeeping, but I would suggest that anytime mankind puts bees in any type of structure we have designed that it isn't what they would have preferred themselves. History shows us they can be incredibly adaptable and will often take up residence in the strangest of places. I have been given the sage advice of deciding exactly what you want out of beekeeping and to follow that course, it might be making healthy bee colonies, it might be a single focus on honey...or trying to find that delicate, and elusive, balance between both. I wish you all success on your adventure and commend you for seeking advice on boards like this.


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## fruitveggirl (Mar 8, 2013)

When I was considering what type of hive to use, I had narrowed my selection down to foundationless Langs and TBHs. This article outlines my final selection process/criteria. Thought it might be useful to you. Just click the "Why Top Bar Hives" link at the top of the page. http://happyhourtopbar.blogspot.com/

I believe TBHs are legal in all the states because they have moveable comb. In other words, like the frames in a Lang, they can be removed for inspection. 

As for making money, check out Wyatt mangnum, Sam comfort, and gold star bees. All of these TBH keepers are making money, but particularly in the last two cases, they are quite diversified -- e.g., pollination contracts, selling bee packages, queens, equipment, etc. I have a feeling that this is where the real money comes from.

TBHs may produce less honey, but the wax and any items you may make from it like candles, salves, lotions, etc. are a source of revenue as well. However, if you really want to reuse TBH wax, it is possible. Look on Youtube for people who have rigged extractors to accept bars from TBHs. 

You mentioned that you are near retirement age and thinking of setting up a professional beeyard. I assume that means you hope to eventually have lots and lots of hives. Please, do not take what I'm about to write in the wrong way, because it is kindly meant. However, you may wish to consider how long you will be able to lift masses of heavy lang boxes. From discussions with people at my local bee club, it seems that a lot of older folks give up beekeeping because of the weight of the Langs and/or back problems caused by them. If you decide to continue with langs, horizontal langs might also be an option. They combine some of the best features of both types of hives -- reusable frames, standard sized equipment, and no heavy lifting. 

Anyway, going back to my original point, I made a chart of the things that were most important to me. You might have a different list of priorities, but you should be able to find a hive that suits your needs. Good luck!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Duncan151 said:


> I built three of these top bar hives for last summer for a little less than 50.00 dollars each.


LOL Duncan. Other than the ghetto lid and no bit of glass, your hives look every bit as good as the $500 "cadillac".


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## kingd (Oct 31, 2013)

I myself will be trying both,I could not decide which way to go and had enough wood laying around to build 2 TBH's.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.
That's right, 500 bucks. 

My labor and materials aren't free.

I build cheaper ones, also.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>I want to do things as "natural" as possible as far as no chemicals or sugar water and such.

Which, of course does not require a top bar hive, although it might lead you to want natural comb.

> While looking into the logistics of that I found many of the people who practice those methods recommend Top Bar (or Warré) hives. 

They do tend to attract people of that mindset, but I think part of it is that the comparisons are usually between conventionally run Langstroths and top bar hives. You can do almost everything you do in a top bar hive in a Langstroth.

>The proponents of Top Bar hives really got me curious as to why they like them so much. So that is one question. 

I think they like natural comb (which you can get in a Langstroth with foundationless frames), they like not lifting boxes (which you can get in a horizontal Langstroth hive), and often they are trying to build a hive themselves and a top bar hive is MUCH simpler to build and can usually be made out of scraps. To me the appeal is the same as a bow and arrow. Simplicity.

>But I also would like to understand the "legalities" because I am in Ohio and I see there are laws about moveable frame hives and I read on here that Top Bar can be a moveable frame hive but I'm not sure how that works. And I also would like to know how much honey productivity drops (if at all) using a Top Bar hive? 

I have not heard of any issues by anyone about movable combs as long as the combs are indeed movable (which requires maintenance in any hive but especially in a top bar hive)

>My husband will be able to pull pension soon and we are dreaming of using beekeeping to supplement our income. On the sites where I was reading about Top Bar hives, many were doing it for other reasons than profit so just wondered how it compares to Langstroth if hoping for profit.

If you build all your hives from scrap wood, top bar hives have a financial advantage. The financial disadvantage to top bar hives is if you have outyards as you will have to make more frequent trips.

I have a few top bar hives in my backyard. I have none in my outyards. Most of my hives are eight frame mediums. I enjoy the top bar hives, but they are not so practical in an outyard where you want minimum maintenance.


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## kbfarms (Jan 28, 2010)

What do you want to do? Extract honey or just have comb honey? Once you figure that out, it's an easy decision.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Personally I don't think it is easier to build a Top Bar Hive than a Langstroth hive. It's actually much easier to build a Langstroth, other than the frames which should be bought.

A Langstroth is also cheaper, if we are talking the same internal cubic area. This point is sometimes confused because Langstroths are expandable so cost comparisons are sometimes made between a small TBH and a full sized Langstroth hive with many additional boxes available. TBH keepers are often also people who will build one from scavenged free wood, but this does not make for a fair cost comparison unless compared to a Langstroth that was built from free scavenged wood.

A Langstroth with natural comb is just as natural as a TBH, perhaps more so as it is vertical, like a tree. TBH's being promoted as more natural, is more verbosity, than fact.


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> LOL Duncan. Other than the ghetto lid and no bit of glass, your hives look every bit as good as the $500 "cadillac".


Ghetto? I will have you know OT that my covers are some of the nicest scrounged roofing panels that I could find!!!!  
In all actuality they are used around here for ridge caps/skylights for pole buildings. I find them when a contractor brings a few back from a big job. I cut them in half, and they cost me around 7.00 dollars each, and are designed to withstand the elements. I never did understand why you would want a big bulky lid on a TBH that had to be removed and replaced? The four patio pavers at 16lbs each and .69 cents are a bit of an overkill. Next year each hive will only have two. There are several things that I like about the TBH mainly due to them fitting how I like to do things. One of the odd things that I like with the TBH is never having to handle sticky frames. The top bars stay nice and clean. Small detail, but it works for me.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

gflack71 said:


> I want to do things as "natural" as possible as far as no chemicals or sugar water and such.


To my thinking....you should simply toss a coin as to which type of hive you will use and focus all of your research energy on accomplishing these goals.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Duncan151 said:


> Ghetto? I will have you know OT that my covers are some of the nicest scrounged roofing panels that I could find!!!!


:thumbsup:


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## rmcpb (Aug 15, 2012)

Oldtimer said:


> A Langstroth with natural comb is just as natural as a TBH, perhaps more so as it is vertical, like a tree. TBH's being promoted as more natural, is more verbosity, than fact.


Too true but often used as a reason to go "natural" in a TBH. Its how you handle the bees rather than the box they are in. Personally I like horizontal Langs with a Warre quilt on top.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Horizontals are a great compromise. I am surprised more beekeepers don't use them.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

I will next build a Tanzanian, built to use Lang compatible top bars, which will let me move frames between types. I built and used one TBH and later moved the hive into a Lang, made a total mess. Read up on the Tanz. hives, all the beauty of TBH with benefits!


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## KPeacock (Jan 29, 2013)

I've got 6 lang hives and like them. I just finished building a horizontal lang that holds about 35 frames. I like the idea of being able to increase hive space without adding an entire box to them. I made it with three small inner covers so if it ever gets compeltely full, i don't have to deal with all the bees at once. I made a gabled roof for it to avoid water sitting on top and hinged the entire top so it can be tilted out of the way instead of lifted for inspection. I havent decided if I'm going to add an observation window. i have a hunch it will just get covered in "yuck" and be worthelss after a season or two. I"m not a real big fan of cleaning windows, so i know it will end up being neglected.


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## julysun (Apr 25, 2012)

KP, I did like my windows, but you are right, they were messed up soonest.


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## gflack71 (Jan 22, 2014)

If there is a club near where you live check it out. Having an adviser nearby is a good thing to have. Club members can show you first hand how things work. 


Thanks. I do plan on joining the local club


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## gflack71 (Jan 22, 2014)

Thank you so much for all the helpful replies. As far as not feeding sugar water, I did not mean to say I wouldn't feed the bees at all, I should have clarified that I didn't want to feed processed sugar water. I thought feeding honey back to them (diluted?) would be better.

It sounds like a Langstroth with a starter strip might be the way we will go. Where can I learn more about that?

As far as the weight and our age, I am 42 and my husband is 52 so not a big issue at present (unless I change my mind when I have experienced it ;>) but could be in future. I have thought about using mediums for the brood chamber but am not sure of the possible disadvantages. I plan to use mediums for the supers.

As far as what we would like to do business-wise, there are so many possibilities and with no experience it's hard to know, but I am interested in cut comb honey.

Perhaps I should have replied to these questions as replies to each person's post and not all in one, if so, please feel free to advise as I am new to the forum style and its ettiquette


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## Life is Good! (Feb 22, 2013)

gflack71 said:


> As far as the weight and our age, I am 42 and my husband is 52 so not a big issue at present (unless I change my mind when I have experienced it ;>) but could be in future. I have thought about using mediums for the brood chamber but am not sure of the possible disadvantages. I plan to use mediums for the supers.


A local historical museum has volunteers work their beeyards, overseen by a staff member. Before I got too deep in over my head, I spent six months working the yards with a few folks. Gave me an opportunity to see equipment in use and to spend a LOT of time talking to other folks about bees. Seeing the operation going was also invaluable! 

I'm your age... and frankly, I don't wish to lift a 60+lb super repeatedly! I'm already lifting 50lb bags of chicken feed...why put more stressors on my shoulders than needed? That's ultimately why I chose to build a TBH instead of a Lang. I lift a frame at a time - it's about 8lbs when full. Yes, I have to check in on the girls more frequently - twice a week or so....but that's what the observation windows are for! 

I also am not interested in storing equipment in the off season. Seeing what a mess the museum had in it's storage areas - supers of all sizes, frames of all sizes, frames with comb in them, inner covers, outer covers, queen excluders - ARGH! All I saw was a lot of dollar signs. This stuff is pricey.

I built 2 tbh's for about $45. Windows allow me to see what's going on long before I crack a lid. Having just a few inches open at a time is so much better for the bees and for me - for opening a Lang hive, you've got the ENTIRE hive lookin' at you! That was intimidating to me. 

The only items I store for my beekeeping hobby are: jacket with veil; gloves; smoker; hive tools; plastic buckets I use for feeders and some left-over wax foundation for starter strips. It all takes up about 2sq feet of space on a shelf in my back hall closet. Everything else is in the hive. Tidy, together, everything's in a known location. 

I priced out building a long Lang hive (it's a hive that uses Lang frames instead of top bars)...and for the frames alone, I was looking at about $70 to build one 30 frame hive. I'd still consider doing this...but not currently. 

Good luck! Know why you're getting into this business. Then go with what your conviction tells you.


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## gflack71 (Jan 22, 2014)

I'm your age... and frankly, I don't wish to lift a 60+lb super repeatedly! I'm already lifting 50lb bags of chicken feed...why put more stressors on my shoulders than needed? That's ultimately why I chose to build a TBH instead of a Lang. I lift a frame at a time - it's about 8lbs when full. Yes, I have to check in on the girls more frequently - twice a week or so....but that's what the observation windows are for! 

I also am not interested in storing equipment in the off season. Seeing what a mess the museum had in it's storage areas - supers of all sizes, frames of all sizes, frames with comb in them, inner covers, outer covers, queen excluders - ARGH! All I saw was a lot of dollar signs. This stuff is pricey.

I built 2 tbh's for about $45. Windows allow me to see what's going on long before I crack a lid. Having just a few inches open at a time is so much better for the bees and for me - for opening a Lang hive, you've got the ENTIRE hive lookin' at you! That was intimidating to me. 


Thanks for sharing. Lots of good points! Any recommends for books or websites to learn more about Top Bar Hives?


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## NeilV (Nov 18, 2006)

I understand that you may need to work topbars more frequently, which makes them less practical for outyards. The more frequent trip to the outyards adds to the time drain.

However, is it possible to do what needs to be done on a per-hive basis faster with TBHs, since you just take off the top and its all right there?


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## Kilted Beekeeper (Apr 8, 2013)

Oldtimer said:


> Five hundred bucks?!!


I remember this build from last year, Pat had to do all stainless hardware and a bunch of other specialty stuff.


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## jim81147 (Feb 18, 2013)

I would caution you in feeding back honey unless it is your own bee's honey .In the coming years that would be easy for you to do , just freeze a few frames in the fall , but in your first season you cant . If you go to the store and get it , it might be honey , or not , and it could carry things in it that you don't want to introduce into the hives . Processed honey is not good for them either .


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## rhaldridge (Dec 17, 2012)

Life is Good! said:


> ...and for the frames alone, I was looking at about $70 to build one 30 frame hive..


Those were very expensive frames.

They're usually a lot less if you buy them unassembled.

Lat season I used both conventional 8 frame equipment and horizontal hives. I actually built a top bar hive, but never put any bees in it. For a backyard beekeeper like me, the horizontal hive makes the most sense, as far as I can tell. You can buy nucs to fit a horizontal hive, but it's harder to find them for a top bar. In practical terms, most folks end up using a package to start a top bar, which in my opinion is not as good a way to start a hive.

Another problem with top bars, at least in my research of the question, is that the bees tend to attach the combs, which makes monitoring the hive more difficult. If I'd had to saw the bars loose every time I wanted to check the combs, I'd probably not have done it as often as I should.

Anyway, my novice opinion is that any advantage claimed for top bars can also be claimed for horizontal hives, except for the cost of the frames. And there are additional advantages-- availability of nucs, use of conventional nuc equipment to make increase, use of extractors, no attachment, larger comb area per frame/bar, less risk of comb collapse in hot weather, especially if you use wire or mono to string the frames.


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## gunter62 (Feb 13, 2011)

Get lang hives and learn those. If you really want to try a top-bar, do it later.


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

gflack71 said:


> Any recommends for books or websites to learn more about Top Bar Hives?


These are the books that I read, from the library, and then purchased for future reference:
The Practical Beekeeper Beekeeping Naturally, Michael Bush
Top-Bar Beekeeping, Les Crowder
Top-Bar Hive Beekeeping Wisdom and Pleasure Combined, Wyatt A. Mangum (Library did not have this one, took a chance and purchased it, worked out for me)
The Barefoot Beekeeper, Phil Chandler (He is a little biased against Langstroth hives)


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## fruitveggirl (Mar 8, 2013)

gflack71 said:


> Any recommends for books or websites to learn more about Top Bar Hives?


Here are some books I've read:
Top-Bar Beekeeping, Les Crowder
Top-Bar Hive Beekeeping Wisdom and Pleasure Combined, Wyatt A. Mangum (Pricey, but I think it's a really good read)
The Barefoot Beekeeper, Phil Chandler
The Thinking Beekeeper by Christy Hemenway

(Note: Phil Chandler and Christy Hemenway of Goldstar Honeybees are very pro-TBH. You will not likely hear anything positive about Langs from them.)

I also recommend the following online sources: 
Michael Bush's website: http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm
OutofaBlueSky on YouTube
GoldStarHoneybees on YouTube
Also, do a search for Sam Comfort on YouTube. 

Oh, and this site. This is an amazing source of info on TBHs.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

fruitveggirl said:


> Note: Phil Chandler and Christy Hemenway of Goldstar Honeybees are very pro-TBH. You will not likely hear anything positive about Langs from them.


To put it mildly.

The Barefoot Beekeeper would be a more useful book if it spent less ink and paper criticizing everybody else and gave more information about actual top bar beekeeping. In my opinion it is light on more than just basic level top bar and general beekeeping method info and I would not recommend it. Wyatt Manguns book is the best and probably the only one you need (for top bars not langs). Of course that is reflected in the price but you get what you pay for.


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## PatBeek (Jan 13, 2012)

.

Why learn first from Langs and then do TBHs later? My inspector mentioned the same thing, that's it's good to learn about bee space first from Langs, as if TBHs don't have bee space. 

Believe me, you'll learn PLENTY from owning TBHs first.



.


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## Kamon A. Reynolds (Apr 15, 2012)

Wyatt Magnum is this best on the subject of top bar beekeeping. Full of level headed info that is based on fact rather than a fad mmovement. I am all for top bars and will continue to use the couple I fool with but th bees can do as good or better in langs in my experiance


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## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I've got a bunch Langs, and I'm in the business of honey production. I was given a TBH by a wealthy friend because it was "all natural and going to save the bees from CCD." At least, that's what they garnered out of the sales information.

I've murdered 5 or 6 swarms in my TBH, only one swarm surviving the winter and then it went queenless. It's been a challenge for me, and with more than a few years of keeping bees, I feel like a failure or a darn fool, often times both. It's been a humbling experience. 

Some of our locals who started in beekeeping with hopes of natural protocols went with the TBHs. They are now switching to Langs so they can get some honey. I've not given up, but I'm not drinking the Kool-aid. I was given the impression TBHs were easy as pie and worry-free.

I may look up Wyatt Magnum's book. I've read a bunch of Phil Chandler's info but it didn't seem to help.

Grant
Jackson, MO https://www.createspace.com/4106626


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## palangi (Nov 17, 2013)

gflack71 said:


> Thanks for sharing. Lots of good points! Any recommends for books or websites to learn more about Top Bar Hives?


One of my favorite TBH books is still the old Peace Corps manual "Small Scale Beekeeping" written by Curtis Gentry.
PDF: http://www.fastonline.org/CD3WD_40/JF/439/32-771.pdf
HTML: http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/small_beekeeping/index.htm


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## Cub (Feb 14, 2013)

I have built a couple of top bar hives that now have bees in them, and a few dozen Lang boxes and nucs. The top bar setups are much nicer to look at, in my opinion, but not as practical (check out the album in my profile.) This is my first winter, and time will tell what ones make it, but Langs are a better choice for my situation. I would also advise choosing one box size, either medium or deep, and only have one size frame. Some advise getting Langs because of matching what fellow beekeepers around you will have. That part doesn't really apply to me, but it might for you. The ability to break down the hive into ten frame sections is handy, especially for moving bees around.

For my situation, nearly all of my bees are from cutouts, and the langs are much easier to handle and move. We did a cutout 30' high in a top bar 8 frame nuc, which had frames to band the comb into, and it was a nightmare. I think Michael Bush advises not to buy a ton of gear based on a system you have not tried and proven. This is sound advice, so you can change your setup to your liking without having a bunch of equipment laying around that you no longer use.

All of my top bar gear is getting put on craigslist, maybe even tonight, because I just built another dozen medium boxes and need to order more frames.

Enjoy yourself.


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