# New Nuc dead with 4 days



## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

Small hive beetle invasion?


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## babyboy (May 28, 2015)

could a beetle or beetles do that much damage in four days? Could they have existed in frames prior to me picking them up from apiary?


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## DPBsbees (Apr 14, 2011)

babyboy said:


> could a beetle or beetles do that much damage in four days? Could they have existed in frames prior to me picking them up from apiary?


I'll defer to those in the south where they are a major pest. Up here they are a minor annoyance.


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

You bake them?

My bet is that the 1" was clogged and they baked. 

Was the nuc closed during transport? Some times thats a bad move. Our last load east travelled the whole way with the air on and the doors open. Nucs bake easily if loaded.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Got pics? I'm guessing small hive beetle. They can over run a nuc in no time. Get back to your seller and let them know what occurred.


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## Hogback Honey (Oct 29, 2013)

I agree with Honey-For-All, first thing I thought of too.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Could be baked with a combination of SHB infestation , but w/o pics?


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

My first thought was baking them too....were the bees a sticky mess? That is a sure sign they overheated and regurgitated


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## babyboy (May 28, 2015)

Harley Craig said:


> My first thought was baking them too....were the bees a sticky mess? That is a sure sign they overheated and regurgitated


I didn't see any honey at all...the remains looked like the bees had shed their skin...will post pictures.


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## JRG13 (May 11, 2012)

I'm betting you strapping the top down and 1" opening they baked due to lack of ventilation.


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## babyboy (May 28, 2015)

snl said:


> Got pics? I'm guessing small hive beetle. They can over run a nuc in no time. Get back to your seller and let them know what occurred.


I just have photos taken today. I checked on hive two days after I installed nuc and without opening hive. There were bees traveling in/out of hive. Guess I need to research small hive beetle. I am curious though how this beetle was able to get in with everything being buttoned up per my instructions from apiary. In fact, they are the ones that recommended the 1" opening so that the hive could fight off any intruders.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

The dead bees looking like they shed their skin is from hive beetle larvae eating them. Small hive beetle larvae need carbohydrates which they get from the honey and they need protein which they can get from pollen or any debris such as dead bees and loose pollen. That nuc was infested with hive beetle larvae before you picked it up!


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

Slow Drone said:


> That nuc was infested with hive beetle larvae before you picked it up!


That's the understatement of the day I would suggest getting a hold of your supplier & show him/her those all telling pictures


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

I'm unaware of any instance where small hive beetles killed bees. They might drive them to abscond....but they can't kill 'em. My guess. The bees cooked. The beetles are now having a field day in an unprotected hive.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Looking at those empty frames....the bees could have starved and then the beetles took over.


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## Harley Craig (Sep 18, 2012)

I agree that the Beatles are a result of the bees dying only takes 2-3 days for the eggs to hatch and turn to larva and destroy a dead weak colony I bet the bees you saw coming and going 2 days after install were robbers since you said there was no honey left


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## Honey-4-All (Dec 19, 2008)

Its one way or another. Not enough information to determine which side to lean towards as a determination. Either you go sold a bill of goods or baked them.

From those pictures I have only one thing to say:

What a mess!!!!!!:ws:


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Hive beetles don't kill bees but will scavenge protein from dead bees. For that nuc to be in that condition it was heavily infested before the OP picked them up. The nuc had to be in a very weakened state prior to the OP receiving them. Hive beetles are an indicator of a weak hive with low population and can also indicate a queen issue.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Slow Drone said:


> For that nuc to be in that condition it was heavily infested before the OP picked them up.


Depends on what you call 'infested'. When I pull supers to harvest honey, I only pull those that I can extract within twenty four hours. I've seen a dozen shb slime a stack of supers in just a few days. And it isn't uncommon here to have more than a dozen shb in perfectly healthy, heavily populated hives. 
If, when the op installed those bees four days before and didn't notice a truckload of shb....I'm thinking that it is likely that as the bees were failing...either from overheating or starvation, then the beetles took advantage. Once again, I've never seen or heard of small hive beetles killing bees.
Maybe it's different in TN and TX.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

beemandan said:


> Depends on what you call 'infested'. When I pull supers to harvest honey, I only pull those that I can extract within twenty four hours. I've seen a dozen shb slime a stack of supers in just a few days. And it isn't uncommon here to have more than a dozen shb in perfectly healthy, heavily populated hives.
> If, when the op installed those bees four days before and didn't notice a truckload of shb....I'm thinking that it is likely that as the bees were failing...either from overheating or starvation, then the beetles took advantage. Once again, I've never seen or heard of small hive beetles killing bees.
> Maybe it's different in TN and TX.


Beemandan you might want to reread what was written there is no mention of shb killing bees. SHB do not eat live adult honey bees unless they are dead but will consume brood it takes shb pupae 3 days to hatch so if your supers are getting slimed they were already there. By the way I've kept and still keep bees in several states northern and southern I sincerely doubt there to be a difference between shb in any state.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Slow Drone said:


> it takes shb pupae 3 days to hatch so if your supers are getting slimed they were already there.


Ok...you win. In a little over three days they can slime a stack of supers. As long as we're being picky.....it takes 3 days for shb *eggs* to hatch. They pupate in the soil. I know you know that...I just wanted to be picky too.
And since neither of us were present at the installation of this nuc....we're both guessing and may both be absolutely wrong. Who knows? I ain't married to my opinion on this thread.
Good luck.


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## Slow Drone (Apr 19, 2014)

Not trying to win but you are right we can only guess and attempt to present every possible scenario. We weren't there during install as you pointed out so this is all we can do is make a guess based on what we think. I only share my experience in an attempt to help others.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Slow Drone said:


> I only share my experience in an attempt to help others.


Me too.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

So babyboy, did you notice any/some SHB @ time of transfer?


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## babyboy (May 28, 2015)

fieldsofnaturalhoney said:


> So babyboy, did you notice any/some SHB @ time of transfer?


I did not notice anything at all! I was only concerned with getting the frames out of the nuc box and into the brood box as quickly as possible. I didn't want to expose the queen and other bees to an environment outside of the nuc and or hive for very long. I tried to do it as quickly as possible. My main focus was to grab the frames without squishing and killing a bee. It was my first time to don a comby suit and perform this procedure. IF I ever do this again, I will be much more at ease and inspect each frame.

I am puzzled as to how they were hungry because the internal feeder still had sugar water in it, which incidentally was filled with dead bees and active larvae in one of the ports. I buy into the possibility of them being hungry based on the lack of honey due to there only being about 3 1/2 frames having comb on it. I was told that there were four full frames in the nuc.

As far as them overheating, I was given specific instruction by the apiary to close the hole down to the smallest opening so that the hive could defend itself until they became strong. Did they set me up for failure?

I would like to say thank you for EVERYONE'S input and guidance. My bee experience was a nightmare but the bee community has proven to bee dreamy! I will continue to read and in case I receive any more input.


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## biggraham610 (Jun 26, 2013)

Dont quit, we all lose a hive. First one sucks but maybe the seller will make it right. I would think any seller would expect their product to last more than 4 days. G


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## babyboy (May 28, 2015)

Honey-4-All said:


> You bake them?
> 
> My bet is that the 1" was clogged and they baked.
> 
> Was the nuc closed during transport? Some times thats a bad move. Our last load east travelled the whole way with the air on and the doors open. Nucs bake easily if loaded.


Yes, nuc was closed during a 3 1/2 hour drive home with air holes on both sides of boxes. We drove with a/c on. Bees were all alive when I transferred to brood box. I closed the opening down to 1" because that was the advice of the apiary. The highs during those days was about 75 degrees. 

How large of an opening should I have created?

Thank you for your input!


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## camero7 (Sep 21, 2009)

> I closed the opening down to 1" because that was the advice of the apiary. The highs during those days was about 75 degrees.
> 
> How large of an opening should I have created?


That sounds about right particularly for that temp. I have nucs right now with similar openings and 90° temps.


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## AHudd (Mar 5, 2015)

Babyboy, I was taken advantage of a few years back by an unscrupulous nuc dealer, but after being burned I started doing more research online and discovered there were many good people willing to help, such as you will find here. Don't give up, this is a very rewarding endeavor.

The SHB do their damage during the larval stage of their life. Two to four days to hatch, ten to sixteen days in the larval stage, when they do the most damage by pooping, then exit hive to pupate for three to four weeks, then start the cycle again. Good pictures and info here. https://www.uaex.edu/publications/PDF/FSA-7075.pdf

Alex


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## popescg (May 15, 2014)

Crawling larvae on the bottom box are most likely small hive beetle larvae, if is a large small hive beetle infestation your bees might abandoned the hive. Small hive beetle traps are a must.


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## Tim B (Apr 16, 2009)

Sounds like this nuc wasn't particularly strong. It probably didn't overheat. It is likely that the nuc was just made up and weak and possibly not fully queenright making it a prime candidate for being robbed out and then slimed by beetles.


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## jbeshearse (Oct 7, 2009)

Okay, you guys are missing something. He transferred the nuc frames to a brood chamber. If they were heavily infested or weak, or covered with larva he would have noticed it. Same was as if he had had a severe SHB infestation. 

What I see are not a whole lot of bees in the crap at the bottom of the hive. What I see is an abscond with the beetles moving in and wreaking havoc on the sealed brood left behind. Also, looking at the single frame he photographed, if all his frames look like that, then the bee larva, young bees, were removed from the frames by the bees themselves, and left for the SHBs. There is on slime on the frame, if the SHB were eating larva and honey, the frames are slimed. Or possibly some SHB moved in and then the bees absconded. What was left became fodder for beetles. I have lost more than my share of hives to SHB and the often repeated mantra that a strong hive will keep them in check is absolutely wrong. 

A strong hive can, with traps, etc. keep them at bay, but that does not mean there are not hundreds of adult SHB in the hive. A small stumble or upset leads to overrun. 

On the limited information given, that is my best guess, an abscond and then a SHB factory.

Better luck next time


jeb


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## BlanketFlowerBees (Jun 20, 2015)

Who'd you get the nuc from?


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## popescg (May 15, 2014)

Shb beetle eggs hatch in 4 to 6 days so is possible the eggs were on the nuc's frame when transfered and those are difficult to observe, shb eggs can be on honey or brood bread. Is good to have traps in place early spring when shb population is relatively small compared with summer or fall. I start using some brood bread scented oil for beetle traps something like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Small-Hive-...141?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c53c54b85 at this time I've seen shb only in the traps.


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## babyboy (May 28, 2015)

BlanketFlowerBees said:


> Who'd you get the nuc from?


Honeybeesoftexas.com. They are located right around Huntsville, tx


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## Live Oak (Oct 11, 2008)

Just my 2 cents worth. The SHB's are mearly the clean up crew after the fact. If you started with reasonably healthy and active bees, something went wrong. I currently have 9 nucs that I am trying to finish up in this mid 90 degree heat. I have the entrance reducer set to about 1 inch. I am using screened bottom boards. Perhaps I missed it but I did not see what type of bottom board you are using. If you are using a solid bottom board, a 1 inch reducer, standard inner cover, and telescoping cover your bees will not get much if any ventilation. I encountered this issue in a smaller 2 frame breeding nuc and had to move them to a 5 frame nuc. In the Texas heat, it is a possibility. 

Another possibility is that when the newly place nuc field foraging bees oriented themselves with your area, they may have found some type of forage that was toxic either due to pesticide exposure or natural toxicity. I had this happen with 10 splits a few years back. All 10 of the walk away splits died within 4 days that had been moved. The parent hives the splits were made from were NOT moved and continued to do well. At first I was totally flummoxed. After a long discussing with Dann Purvis I think his explanation was the most logical and feasible. The split hive foraging bees found toxic forage and brought it back to the hive. Since this disaster I NO longer move splits from the parent hive location. I leave them right beside the parent hive so the split hive foraging bees will go where the parent hive bees go. I wait until Winter to move the hives to a new location when there has been a long cold snap to keep them in the hives for several days or weeks. This minimizes the loss of field worker bees.

It is highly unlikely but still possible that these bees had Nosema Cerane. The spores remain in the comb wax and even honey for long periods of time. I am still having some issues with it due to comb that I used from a hive that obsconded during the Winter. Classic signs of it that I missed with the bee gone and only a few stragglers, dead bees, and the queen still alive left behind.

As a precaution, I would NOT use any of the frames from that nuc again. Melt them down and start with new foundation. 

There is no way to tell for sure what actually happened but it DOES pay to be mindful of ALL possibilities.


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