# Thinking About Long Langstroth



## Rader Sidetrack (Nov 30, 2011)

OK, you asked for "thoughts", so here are mine. 

And even though I have a moderator tag under my memberID, that hat is "off" currently. 


I know this is the TB & HH forum, but in the long run I think you will be better served by a standard 10 frame Lang hive. :lookout:

Consider that typically a 10 frame Lang isn't likely to have more than 2 boxes of brood, so you won't have to remove more than one box to work the lower brood box. And typically you never need to lift the lower box. If weight is an issue, rather than lifting the whole box, keep a spare empty available, and transfer a few frames at a time into that temporarily. Honey [harvest] boxes are only in place for a relatively short time, and you may not actually need to remove them except for harvest.

Once you are in a standard lang, then all the commercially available accessories, like queen excluder, feeders, covers, etc all fit pretty much automatically. With a long lang, how were you thinking of utilizing a feeder? Yes it can be done, but its a kludge. And please don't think that an entrance feeder (AKA Boardman feeder) is a good plan, as its not [not with _ANY_ kind of hive].

As a new beekeeper, and particularly with your grand-daughters, there is a lot to learn. Advice from "most places" will be with the assumption that a Lang hive is in play. So most videos aren't going to "show" you what to do as your hive doesn't match. Can you adapt, yes of course. But how well will the younger ones adapt? 


OK, now I'm taking cover! 


And I'm expecting LJ to be along in a while to present a different view.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

Three standard bottoms will be too large an opening for the bees to defend and will cause the hive body to be about three inches wider than than the typical Langstroth space for thirty-two frames (which is, of course, not a large problem if you use a follower board or add more frames). You will want to have at least two hives so that you can share resources when inevitable problems arise. 

As to gabled versus flat roof, I think that gabled is a little more attractive in a well maintained garden area, but may not blend in quite as well as a simple flat roof in a more remote natural setting. At least that’s what I think today. A top bar hive with flat roof with a hammered metal design can hold moisture. (Don’t ask how I know this.)

I have used a long box hive and a top bar hive. I got rid of them. I use all eight frame medium Langstroth boxes. I’m sure some folks prefer top bars and long Langstroths, but I don’t. They are awkward to move around. Bees can get separated from the stores in winter. The footprint is too large for me. That’s not such a problem with one hive on ten acres, but goals and methods can evolve, and Langstroth stacks are adaptable to scaling up or moving to other locations. I hope that you and your family enjoy whatever hive design you decide to use.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Rader Sidetrack said:


> And I'm expecting LJ to be along in a while to present a different view.


Sure ... 

There was a point in beekeeping history, some 20-30 years after Langstroth was granted a Patent for his hanging-frame hive, when several prominent beekeepers adopted what was to become known as the 'Long Hive'. Claims made at the time were that this design was superior to the Langstroth 'contractable' vertical beehive in several respects: it was more easily managed - in that frames could be removed without the lifting of any boxes - but more importantly from a commercial point-of-view, this ease of management resulted in an essentially 'non-swarming' beehive, which resulted in much larger colonies being developed within them, and which in turn produced much larger yields of surplus honey.

I've been researching this area of historical beekeeping over the winter, and the popularity of the Langstroth Hive, and the derision shown towards Adair's 'Long Idea Hive' (which never was 'The Idea' itself), resulted from huge misunderstandings which I plan to publish (in some form) in due course. Suffice it to say for now, that the potential of the Horizontal Hive has been completely misrepresented over the years.

Sometime around 1882, A.I Root - the foremost manufacturer of conventional Langstroth hives - who had been initially dismissive of such thinking, became so convinced that this design was superior for the production of extracted honey that he even went so far as to propose that it should become THE standard hive, holding 20 Adair frames (12" x 10" deep). to be adopted throughout the North American continent, and in due course, the world.
Even Langstroth himself (who was previously an advocate of the 9" deep frame with a 19" top bar which has remained in use right up until the present day, had some years earlier proposed to Root a change to a narrower and deeper format: 12-14 inches long, with a depth of 12-13 inches.

But, partly due to one of the misunderstandings I referred to earlier, and partly due to the financial inducements which the Langstroth Hive offered to agents marketing that hive - and which would have been completely absent with this new design of beehive - the Langstroth Hive, or more correctly the Langstroth-Root or Langstroth-Root-Heddon Hives were to dominate beekeeping over the next century or so.


So much for history. Are Long Hives any good ? I think they're great, and use both horizontal and vertical beehives in my apiary - I much prefer vertical hives for queen-rearing, but for ease of week-to-week management give me a framed Long Hive any day.

Is the Langstroth frame best suited for use in a Long Hive ? In my opinion, such a frame is a compromise - it's to be preferred in view of it's interchangeability with other hives, but is not the best shape: shorter and deeper would be much better.

But - if it's the Langstroth frame or nothing, then let it be a Deep frame, to be used in conjunction with a Divider or 'Follower' Board in order to reduce the cavity size whenever this is required, for only a space of 10 frames or less will ever be needed for over-wintering.
'best,
LJ


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I am enjoying my "double-side" Long Lang for honey production (I run mostly topbar hives). The bottom box is a custom made one that fits 17 deep frames. It was designed to allow 2-eight frame honey supers to fit side by side on the top, and you can stack as many as needed, however in my area, 4 is probably all I will need for a season, unless I moved it near a cotton flow in the summer.

As of April 2, the overwintered queen had filled up all 17 deep frames with brood and had moved up into a couple of the medium frames. In two weeks when all that brood emerges, its going to be a powerhouse, so the queen was removed to a nuc that day so they don't swarm on me. I'll go back in in a few days to remove other frames with nice queen cells and put them in mating nucs, but let the majority of the brood frames stay in there.

For the winter, in coastal Virginia, the box overwinters with just the bottom brood box. The capped honey stores are moved down in there and any empty brood frames are saved until the following spring.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

It would help if you put your location in your header. Many people feel that vertical hives have an advantage for winter survival in colder climates. If you decide to go the long hive route using the system you describe with standard lang frames, individual bottoms and inner covers, etc., it would at least be easy to move to individual 8 or 10 frame boxes if you should decide differently.

I am coming up against the weight issue too but the advice about not needing to lift a full box is spot on. Take advantage of Rev. Langstroths removable frame idea! ;Divide and conquer.

I think the colonies in individual Lang boxes gives more flexibility plus equipment of every description is "off the shelf" available and saleable.


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## siskosdad (Oct 28, 2018)

First, to make things easier, I am located in the piedmont area of North Carolina and the hive(s) will be located just north of Durham, NC, USDA zone 7b.

Thanks for your thoughts, comments, and advice. Y’all have given me much to think about. Based on the general tone of the conversation, I am going to give serious thought to using a standard, vertical, 8-frame Langstroth. Let me talk about a few of your comments. Sorry, I tend to ramble when I write.

“_As a new beekeeper, and particularly with your grand-daughters, there is a lot to learn. Advice from "most places" will be with the assumption that a Lang hive is in play._”

The comment about finding advice from “most places” is well taken. I’ve been reading through “The Hive and the Honey Bee” (Dadant) as well as other information that I consider reliable and have learned quite a bit. My daughter and I were going to take a beekeeping course this month but it has been cancelled because of COVID-19. Right now I’m taking an on-line course through NC State University. Seems to be pretty good information.

“_Three standard bottoms will be too large an opening for the bees to defend_”

True. I thought about that when designing the hive. My design modifies the bottom boards to be completely enclosed with an entrance on the end of the hive. 

“_Is the Langstroth frame best suited for use in a Long Hive ? In my opinion, such a frame is a compromise - it's to be preferred in view of it's interchangeability with other hives, but is not the best shape: shorter and deeper would be much better_.”

I have read quite a bit about deeper, narrower frames and that seems like a good thing that I may look at as I get some experience. Right now, I’m going to stick with deep Langstroth frames. Of course, that begs the question, do I use all deeps or 2 deeps for brood and mediums for honey?

One comment about working with the grand-kids struck a chord with me. A standard, vertical hive may be the best teaching tool because of the standardization. The kids are pretty bright and learn quickly. It may be best to start them with standard practices and let them move to other methods as they develop in the craft.

Again, thanks … now I’m off to think some more.


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

Hi Sisko,
Have a look at "Keeping bees with a Smile" the Book by Leo S. I have seen online parts of the book with plans for long hive and double deep long hive in his books.
You did not add your location, In the bottom half of the US you can likely get away with a long Hive.
IMO in the north the bees will not move Sideways as easy and may starve out.

If you plan to build the "box" then also build the top and bottom. It would be Illogical to create a box to match "bought" bottoms and tops.
If you are "mature" like myself, consider the 8 frame box, 20 percent lighter.
Also If you make a nice base, (gravel) the hive does not need to be moved, only the honey, I have found Using NUCs (5 frame box) Ideal for carrying honey, or a 1/2 full box.
So make a few extras and split the loads as needed.

IMO for the first timer Start with "traditional/local" Wooden Ware until you can keep bees then think about the Off shoot hives.
OR tell your daughter , yes great idea go for it, and let her drive the deal.

Welcome and good luck
GG


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

If one is to stick to "standard Lang" frame, I would instead run at least a Dadant frame deep.
This is essentially done by two standard Lang medium frames stapled/strapped together into a single unit - no need to pursue/make the Dadant frames proper.

A single Lang frame in horizontal battery is too shallow for wintering in most northern locations US, for sure in my location (granted the OP did not show his location).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Sure ...
> ..... but for ease of week-to-week management give me a framed Long Hive any day.
> ......
> LJ


+1
If not for my needs to be mobile and some other pursuits, I'd stick to the large long hives - beekeeper ergonomy is superb in the static apiary setting.

There is nothing to be afraid of in the long hives.
In fact, in Russia/Ukraine the long hives are the default equipment recommended for the new beeks as the most forgiving configuration.


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

I started this long lang last year from a smallish swarm. (it's actually a double hive...I just have one side occupied at present). I used a pre-made box that my son picked up at an auction. You'll see from the photos that I have plexiglass for an inner cover. It allows limited inspections without actually opening the hive. Last winter I added insulation between the inner cover & the lid. You can PM me if you want more info.

I can remove sections of inner cover to inspect only the part of the colony that I wish to see without disturbing the whole colony.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Riverderwent said:


> Bees can get separated from the stores in winter.


A typical problem with long/shallow designs in colder regions (less so in the south).
A long hive should have enough depths to it - which a single Lang frame depth does not offer.

PS: OK, this is NC then - might get away with a single deep Lang row then - mild enough.


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## ifixoldhouses (Feb 27, 2019)

I was just thinking about making a long queen castle hive


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

Greg when you say a single lang frame isn't deep enough are you referring to a traditional deep frame and suggesting you would have to go to a dadant deep to make it work in colder temps , just wondering as I always thought this would make a nice project and frame inspection would be easy , I'm in northeast Pa. and was hoping i could get away with regular deep frames


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

laketrout said:


> Greg when you say a single lang frame isn't deep enough are you referring to a traditional deep frame and suggesting you would have to go to a dadant deep to make it work in colder temps ........


Yes.
With single Lang deep, your bees will have to continuously be moving side-ways - frame over frame over frame.
Not the best setup in PA if they get caught in place during a cold snap.
At least with the Dadant depths, there will be some over-the-head honey.
Two medium Lang frames, connected together will give you a single ad-hoc Dadant frame, if in a pinch.

One possibility I was thinking to pursue was double-lang-deeps (stapled into a single frame) or triple-lang-mediums (stapled in to a single frame).
For a static apiary I'd totally do these, essentially a Lazutin size.

But I am not static - such monster deep long hives would be unmovable - a no-go in my situation.
I must be able to move hives.


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

The dadant deep frames and foundation are not as easily purchased. I have several ready to put bees in but I have built the frames and boxes myself and cobbled up foundation. The extra deep frames when full, take more strength and control to avoid smushing queens, than the regular deep frame and box. Management is different enough that advice might not be as available as it would for the most popular deep and medium frames in 8 and 10 frame boxes.

Gray Goose quote; "IMO for the first timer Start with "traditional/local" Wooden Ware until you can keep bees then think about the Off shoot hives." :thumbsup:


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## judyv47954 (Jun 5, 2011)

I built two long hives last year. One was for a buster hive with brood in three deeps. They were so hot that they didn't get much attention. I moved them into a long hive with standard deeps and a gable roof. I put chest hinges on the roof instead of a chain. I used 10 frame inner covers with screen over the holes instead of all the little strips of wood. The hive calmed down quite a bit and it was a joy to work it. Unfortunately, it absconded late last fall, even though I had it checker boarded. I was treating them with Formic Pro at the time, so maybe they didn't appreciate it. I built it in such a way that I could use a regular entrance reducer so I could used my Might Mite Killer on them as well as on my regular hives.

The second long hive was modeled from a European design, with 1 1/2" insulation built into the walls. I bought a Buckfast queen and put a split in it. They went into winter with 12 frames and I gave them pollen and sugar on top of the frames. When I checked on Wednesday, they only had two frames of brood, but the queen was there working. There was still plenty of honey and pollen available. 

I'm selling my 10 frame hives little by little. I'm going to try the 5 frame boxes again. The trick is to check them often. You have to keep them from filling the bottom box. Always keep an empty frame there or they will swarm out. Check out Joe May's channel, "Little Bits of Honey," on YouTube. He has all 5 frame and 8 frame hives. I'll keep my two long hives and keep experimenting. I'm in north central IN and it's plenty cold here. Oh, and I'm 64, so hefting heavy supers of honey isn't as fun as it used to be. You can take them out one by one and deposit them in an empty super, but there will come a time when you'll grab a full super even so. With the long hives, you have more leeway on checking the hives than the five frames.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

There is a compromise of course ...

If a brood box was made around (say) 27 inches long, that will hold some 16-17 (needs checking) frames which could be deep or even extra-deep (location-dependent). That length would then support three 5-frame nuc boxes of whatever depth you prefer, acting as honey-supers - that set-up could provide the best of both worlds (perhaps ?) in that you have a large, deep brood chamber of which the size is still fairly easily portable, containing large frames which would not be found to be excessively heavy during inspections - with the honey-supers also not becoming over-heavy when compared with full-width supers.

For over-wintering in such a hive, the supers would be removed, the brood frame-count would be reduced to 9 or 10 perhaps, centralised, with divider boards to either side and packing inserted inside the voids thus created, in a manner similar to that which the Russians/Ukrainians employ and which Greg has written about on several occasions.

Although less portable, in a particularly melliferous location, the brood box length could be increased to around 36 inches in order to support four 5-frame nuc boxes. Hey presto - a Dartington Hive. 
LJ


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

L_J;

That sounds like a workable compromise. One thing about the long hive concept that I forsee as a negative is having to work from the ends of the frames. Now you being close to a foot taller than I am gives a different prospect to this I am sure. I find it much harder to pull or replace frames without dragging the sides when the length of the frame projects away from me rather than being equally visible left and right. If you climate invites the inclusion of permanent insulation this adds to the distancing.

If there is need to use deeper frames this would compound the difficulty of working the long hive configuration. 

There certainly are ways to use dividers to have different conditions in separate compartments or even multiple queens etc., but having worked a bit on two queens in the same stack I find that keeping things separate is a bit of an impediment. I find two separate entities is easier in this respect.

From the original posters position, or if I was to mentor someone I think the standard vertical Langs or in your land the British National box would be less hassle.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

Frank - you are SO right - and I apologise profusely to anyone who I may have misled in this regard. Most of my Long Hives are in the range of 29-32 inches (I do have a couple shorter, but much deeper) and yes - I work them all from the back, or from one back corner. 
I did have a Dual (divided) 4-foot Deep Long Hive for a year or three, but ended up cutting it in half mainly because it was a pain in the butt to move for maintenance. That, and I decided to move to a 'one colony in one hive' approach. But yes - when it was a 4-footer, I did work that one from the side, and it was a very awkward posture. Pulling frames might be easier with a 'frame-grabber' - I keep meaning to buy one: about $5 (in s/s) ex-China - where else ?
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

I say everyone should just look how this (not very young) Ukrainian lady is running her 100+ long hives (I thought 50 initially - wrong).
She just does it with no fuss, no IFs, and no BUTs.

Maybe there is something to learn from her.

Her channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYAtP2ADwUxc_YAq0dko5Rw/videos

For example, she is harvesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa4I8lHkZD0


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

GregV said:


> I say everyone should just look how this (not very young) Ukrainian lady is running her 100+ long hives (I thought 50 initially - wrong).
> She just does it with no fuss, no IFs, and no BUTs.
> 
> Maybe there is something to learn from her.
> ...


Interesting video Greg, thanks. I wasn't able to access subtitles/translation (kept being asked to sign-up to something) so - if you're able to - could you explain about her smoker - which doesn't appear to produce any smoke ... :scratch:

As I thought - it looks like a frame-grabber is the way to go if pulling frames from the side. Really must get one.
'best,
LJ


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

little_john said:


> Interesting video Greg, thanks. I wasn't able to access subtitles/translation (kept being asked to sign-up to something) so - if you're able to - could you explain about her smoker - which doesn't appear to produce any smoke ... :scratch:
> 
> As I thought - it looks like a frame-grabber is the way to go if pulling frames from the side. Really must get one.
> 'best,
> LJ


Unfortunately, there are no English subs; too bad.
But those willing to see things - will see what they need.

About the smoke, incidentally she even has dedicated episodes about her smoker-technology. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V362Vi10Cg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j1NSaKHanc

Overall her bees are pretty mild - some local Ukrainian A.m.macedonica mix.
Probably half-dead smoker is still enough many times for her.
She never complains of the bees being defensive.

Overall, if the Ukrainian babushka can do the long hives - anyone can.
She produces some tons of honey every year too, nothing to sneeze at - 120/130kg of honey per a wintered colony is reported.
So this is a pretty intensely managed long-hive business.

On the other hand - here a case for you when the owner sees his bees exactly twice per a year - spring and fall.
It is a long drive to see his bees more often.
Set it and forget it.
All thanks to the long hives.
English subs are available.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj8taUKQYww
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JymG_Y10q8Y

PS: I suspect the "twice-per-year" owner lately gave up this project - really was a very long drive for him and he sounded as getting tired of the project (per my tracking of him);
just clarifying because the videos are a bit older.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

The main reason for using traditional frames would be the ease of extracting and being able to put them in you extractor , how are people like the Ukrainian lady extracting there honey with dadant deep frames or if i went with two mediums fastened together ,it would be a bugger taking them apart and putting them back together


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

laketrout said:


> The main reason for using traditional frames would be the ease of extracting and being able to put them in you extractor , how are people like the Ukrainian lady extracting there honey with dadant deep frames or if i went with two mediums fastened together ,it would be a bugger taking them apart and putting them back together


Dadant frames are the standard in Ukraine - hence the extractors handle those just fine.
With Langs you zip tie one medium under the other; if need to extract - cut the zips; then zip back together.
Some hassle - yes.
But zip/unzip beats the metal hardware.


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

thanks for the info Greg , have you seen any good plans for a long lang that has most of the problems figured out


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## Cariboospeed (Sep 12, 2018)

I'm in central B.C. Canada, we get -40 here, and sometimes a crap ton of snow. I have three lang hives that can get 5-6 supers high in the summer. I try and keep the deeps for brood and mediums for honey. This past year I have Kona queens, and going into fall the colonies were huge. I left them in 2 deeps or a deep and two meds and wrapped them a bunch of flooring underlay I had. Left them with a lot of honey as well. 
So far, the colonies are still very big. One has covered brood and they're just starting to find pollen and bring it back. (Still a lot of snow here, but finally staying above freezing all day). My backyard it all hillside, and not real great for packing stuff up and down. To unstack and restack boxes when inspecting or mite treating is a p.i.t.a. 

Over the winter I built a couple fully insulated long hives 32 deep frames long, can take medium supers on top, still close the hinged lid. I won't have to pack tools, I can leave them in the hives along with extra frames. If I do have to move a super, I can stack it on the hive. Using cover boards, only uncover a couple frames at a time, instead of 60,000 raging bees from open boxes set in the dirt and grass. My hives are where they are going to be. Should I feel the need to move a long hive, I'll pick it up with my tractor loader and move it. No more insulating the hives in winter and they should be easier for the bees to regulate in summer. I can make splits and nucs in the same box. Cut a piece of coroplast to make dividers, glue a piece of styrofoam to one to make a insulated follower. No more bending over to lift heavy boxes. Regular queen excluders can be used under a honey super, and I'll happily cut a couple up to keep the queen in one end. I have two kinds of feeders, the large one that goes on top like a super, and the drop in ones that take the place of a couple frames. Both will work and be way easier to get at. Honey frames can be picked out a few at a time and go in a box in my loader. I don't have to take entire supers, just the frames I want.

As far as wintering, yes, ideally a deeper frame. But my 10 frame extractor takes med, and deeps. And that major investment dictates frame size. The hives walls are 1.5" styrofoam between 3/8" ply. The roofs have 1"styrofoam and I'll either use Refectix, or make a burlap/wood shavings quilt for over the frames.

This time next year we'll find out if it was a good idea...


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## laketrout (Mar 5, 2013)

cariboo very interesting do you have more pics showing the long lang with supers on etc.


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## Cariboospeed (Sep 12, 2018)

Yep, I'm not a carpenter, and I couldn't find any plans for exactly what I wanted to do, so I figured it out as I went.

























I made a couple little screen cones to put in the vent holes. Hopefully they will let any trapped bees out, and nothing will find its way in...


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## siskosdad (Oct 28, 2018)

I never expected to get this much information, opinions, and advice from my simple question about starting beekeeping with a long Langstroth. I genuinely apppreciate everyone's input. As is my nature, I am spending way too much time analyzing the information, doing AutoCad drawings, and trying to come to a decision. 

Since I last wrote, I took an introductory course in beekeeping from North Carolina State University. Very well done course that I'd recommend to someone who wants a cursory introduction.

I'm working some drawings that I'd like to post and get your opinions. More later ...


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## Gray Goose (Sep 4, 2018)

siskosdad said:


> I never expected to get this much information, opinions, and advice from my simple question about starting beekeeping with a long Langstroth. I genuinely apppreciate everyone's input. As is my nature, I am spending way too much time analyzing the information, doing AutoCad drawings, and trying to come to a decision.
> 
> Since I last wrote, I took an introductory course in beekeeping from North Carolina State University. Very well done course that I'd recommend to someone who wants a cursory introduction.
> 
> I'm working some drawings that I'd like to post and get your opinions. More later ...


Decisions are over rated it is the journey to get there that is the fun. once you decide the work starts 

Have fun let us know what you decide.

Did you get a chance to look at the plan from Dr Leo? https://horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/double-deep-long-hive.shtml
I have a couple, Interesting process to get them up and running.

GG


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have been meditating on other hive configurations besides deep and medium Langs. Weight issues are becoming more of an issue for me. Certainly there are ways to get it done by removing half the frames into another box etc., but I dont find that really appealing. I have looked at the really deep frames to enhance winter survival with a single depth system but as mentioned the "no fit in extractor" issue is real. Of course you really do not have to extract brood frames if you are doing some manner of smaller honey frames. I find that the ends of my frames are not used to much advantage. They seldom get fully drawn out till the second season and then tend to fill with honey not utilized and too crystallized to extract. Permanent insulation would probably reduce that effect. The good part is they are standard with what most other people have and easy to buy.

I have two ten frame Dadant hives just about ready to populate as single box brood chambers. I want to see how the bees draw out and utilize the deeper frames in my cold climate short season. A couple of colonies is nothing but the extra expense and inconvenience of getting ready made frames, boxes, foundations in Dadant depth would be pretty major if you were thinking of many colonies. What Fusion_power has undertaken with his conversion to this has been a huge project.

The setup Cariboospeed has with permanent insulation is quite enticing. I never look forward to the fall preps and spring removal and storage. Every year I promise to standardize the wrapping and get more efficient; hasn't happened yet.

I guess I am putting off standardizing because I still have ideas I want to explore. Ya, that sounds like a good rationale. It has been a good hobby!


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## WaverlyBees (Jul 13, 2012)

Here are a couple long hives I recently completed and added bees over the weekend. The one with 2 entrances is essentially modified Layens hive that accepts 2 vertical medium Langstroth size frames. I didn't take a picture of the actual frames, but I will get one tomorrow and explain the how I built the frames. It can hold 22 frames (44 mediums) and can operate as a single or dual hive. The other long hive is a double deep Lang that can hold 32 double frames (64 deeps) and can be divided into 3 hives if I choose. Now, I have been keeping bees for several years and have other standard Lang hives and have no intention of getting rid of those. The long hives are sort of a hobby within a hobby. I would agree that if just starting out, begin with your standard Lang hive, reasons have already been noted in other posts so I won't rehash those. I will start another thread to keep a log of how the long hives perform. If anyone is interested, I have a 3D model of both of these hives I can share.


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## little_john (Aug 4, 2014)

WaverlyBees said:


> I will start another thread to keep a log of how the long hives perform. If anyone is interested,


Always interesting, and may be valuable. Must say I *do* like your style of roof !
LJ


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## siskosdad (Oct 28, 2018)

I'm leaning toward a long Langstroth for the simple idea that it seems like it would be easier to work. The older I get the more I like the idea of less heavy things to lift.

I like the idea of what may be described as a modified long Langstroth. I hope this works ... I'm looking at building what is essentially a triple-long 8 frame - ending up with 24 deep frames for the brood box. Over that, I plan to place 3 standard 8 frame shallow honey supers. If want to use a triple-long standard bottom with only one entrance and three standard 8-frame inner covers. I'm inclined to use a standard telescoping top but may add a simple gable roof for esthetics.

Again, opinions, comments, and advice is welcomed.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

siskosdad said:


> .......... I'm inclined to use a standard telescoping top ........


Standard telescoping over the "24 deep frames for the brood box" will be very uncomfortable to operate.
Too long to be ergonomic.
Unless you take special care to make the roof very, very light (the light tops have their own issues too).
Consider the hinges.

I do have telescoping tops but only over 16-20 frames (see my avatar).


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

WaverlyBees said:


> Here are a couple long hives .......


Nice!


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

siskosdad said:


> I'm leaning toward a long Langstroth for the simple idea that it seems like it would be easier to work. The older I get the more I like the idea of less heavy things to lift.
> 
> I like the idea of what may be described as a modified long Langstroth. I hope this works ... I'm looking at building what is essentially a triple-long 8 frame - ending up with 24 deep frames for the brood box. Over that, I plan to place 3 standard 8 frame shallow honey supers. If want to use a triple-long standard bottom with only one entrance and three standard 8-frame inner covers. I'm inclined to use a standard telescoping top but may add a simple gable roof for esthetics.
> 
> Again, opinions, comments, and advice is welcomed.


Keep your options open; install three entrances. You can keep the unused ones closed but If you want to make one section queenless to raise queens or start a nuc colony or run two queens you have the means to do so. A snip from Cariboospeed post _<I can make splits and nucs in the same box. Cut a piece of coroplast to make dividers, glue a piece of styrofoam to one to make a insulated follower.>_


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## siskosdad (Oct 28, 2018)

crofter said:


> Keep your options open; install three entrances. You can keep the unused ones closed but If you want to make one section queenless to raise queens or start a nuc colony or run two queens you have the means to do so. A snip from Cariboospeed post _<I can make splits and nucs in the same box. Cut a piece of coroplast to make dividers, glue a piece of styrofoam to one to make a insulated follower.>_


Good idea. I've thought about providing three entrances but it was pointed out that might be too much space to keep open. I like the idea of making the openings available but with the ability to block them off when not needed and of using a follower board to reduce the hive size when needed or wanted. 

I have some 3/4" PVC sheets that a friend of mine gave me and I'm wondering if they would be appropriate for a hive. They would be completely rot-proof but I am concerned about using that much plastic around the bees. What do y'all think?


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## Cariboospeed (Sep 12, 2018)

siskosdad said:


> If want to use a triple-long standard bottom with only one entrance and three standard 8-frame inner covers. I'm inclined to use a standard telescoping top but may add a simple gable roof for esthetics.
> 
> Again, opinions, comments, and advice is welcomed.


 I thought about that, but for my situation, anything I remove and put on the ground will tumble away down hill. So I made the lid that will hinge over the added supers, (should I use them).


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## Cariboospeed (Sep 12, 2018)

double post?


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## bobo (Feb 15, 2015)

At 68, I've converted to all mediums (6 5/8" deep) x 10 frames. Three stacked are the same as two deeps. But much easier to handle. Standard outline accepts all accessories. When full of honey a medium weighs 1/3 less than a full deep, which can tip 90#.
Saves on the back. Makes more to look at with your daughter. It'll work great for you.


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## Robert Holcombe (Oct 10, 2019)

Siskosdad - Cool Space Station  I am now a sixth season beekeeper. I, with respect, point out you have a lot to learn (and teach). I recommend you use standard stuff, 8 or 10 frame design. I'm 76 and still working 10 frame setups - adapting all the time. It's a bit colder up here. After a few years learning about bees "needs" you can then design your own hive setup. I strongly suggest learning to standardize your approach and installing weather stations, temperature and relative humidity, as a remote sensor; peace of mind in winter with a cup of coffee. I have learned a lot about winter beekeeping. I am now approaching the idea of a small shed design - spread out (part of Dr. Seeley's Darwinian Principles). It will have room for 2 full hives, a chair and room for a nuc; all using standard frames ( I think). The requirement is to keep the bees happy and lift / extract frames only. I have 9 colonies now but foresee 4 to 6 colonies or 3 sheds. One setup will be attached to a barn. 

Best of luck, bee careful it is an addicting hobby :scratch: ( symbol is appropriate)


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## buggle_juice (Apr 28, 2020)

Hi, im extremely new and im doing a considerable amount of research before buying anything and while I'll be using a standard Langstrom set-up that i plan on buying until i have a season or 2 under my belt i was curious about the long lang set-ups in that will you be able to spin the combs like you can in the rectangular combs or is it like the top bar where the comb is destroyed thus making more work for the bees? Just curious because ive seen plans for the long lang and as a beginner i wanna be able to be as non invasive as possible to avoid stressing the hive to give them the best chance of surviving me learning. Thank you.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

buggle_juice said:


> Hi, im extremely new and im doing a considerable amount of research before buying anything and while I'll be using a standard Langstrom set-up that i plan on buying until i have a season or 2 under my belt *i was curious about the long lang set-ups in that will you be able to spin the combs like you can in the rectangular combs or is it like the top bar where the comb is destroyed thus making more work for the bees?* Just curious because ive seen plans for the long lang and as a beginner i wanna be able to be as non invasive as possible to avoid stressing the hive to give them the best chance of surviving me learning. Thank you.


With most any hive that includes standard or close-to-standard frames - you can spin-extract.
Does not matter horizontal or vertical or anything in between is the hive
It is about the frame itself, not about the frame orientation/placement in the hive.
Of course you can extract from a Long Lang, assuming the frames are standard.

Absence of a frame usually causes not being able to spin-extract (at least makes it not very practical).
Again, it is not a feature of horizontal or vertical hive - absence of the frame is the issue at hand.
You can just use top bars in a Long Lang and it will work just fine too (but forget the spin-extraction).

If looking at a long hive, you are mostly concerned with your own ergonomics as the #1 feature of the long hives, which is about working by a single comb/frame without heavy lifting.


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## buggle_juice (Apr 28, 2020)

GregV said:


> buggle_juice said:
> 
> 
> > Hi, im extremely new and im doing a considerable amount of research before buying anything and while I'll be using a standard Langstrom set-up that i plan on buying until i have a season or 2 under my belt *i was curious about the long lang set-ups in that will you be able to spin the combs like you can in the rectangular combs or is it like the top bar where the comb is destroyed thus making more work for the bees?* Just curious because ive seen plans for the long lang and as a beginner i wanna be able to be as non invasive as possible to avoid stressing the hive to give them the best chance of surviving me learning. Thank you.
> ...


Perfect. Thank you, im not going to be using this any time soon but i wanted to know so if i do decide later on i have some understanding with it.


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## Oberlinmom (Mar 11, 2009)

This is just what I need. I made a long hive (31 deep lang frames) and it swarmed, twice this month. Both swarms were basketball sized. I had opened but the main area and they had room but it went fast, even when I removed some honey frames and returned returned the empties. If I could have added boxes on top they may have only swarmed once.


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

Oberlinmom said:


> This is just what I need. I made a long hive (31 deep lang frames) and it swarmed, twice this month. Both swarms were basketball sized. I had opened but the main area and they had room but it went fast, even when I removed some honey frames and returned returned the empties. *If I could have added boxes on top they may have only swarmed once*.


All of my long hives can take an optional super on the top by design.
It is really your design decision to make (not an inherent limitation of a long hive).


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## dawnswir (Feb 23, 2020)

Tim KS said:


> I started this long lang last year from a smallish swarm. (it's actually a double hive...I just have one side occupied at present). I used a pre-made box that my son picked up at an auction. You'll see from the photos that I have plexiglass for an inner cover. It allows limited inspections without actually opening the hive. Last winter I added insulation between the inner cover & the lid. You can PM me if you want more info.
> 
> I can remove sections of inner cover to inspect only the part of the colony that I wish to see without disturbing the whole colony.
> View attachment 54415
> View attachment 54417


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## dawnswir (Feb 23, 2020)

I was wondering how the plexiglass on top worked for you on your long lang?
Did you have any moisture retention issues? I was thinking about some 1 inch holes with screening. I plan to build 3 long langs this year. I have top bars and love them, but want the ease of full frames.
Thank you,
virginia in va


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## Tim KS (May 9, 2014)

dawnswir said:


> I was wondering how the plexiglass on top worked for you on your long lang?
> Did you have any moisture retention issues? I was thinking about some 1 inch holes with screening. I plan to build 3 long langs this year. I have top bars and love them, but want the ease of full frames.
> Thank you,
> virginia in va


Virginia, I do have some 1 inch holes drilled near the top of the frames on the long hive for the bees to use a upper entrances & to release moisture. Whether they use them or not is up to the bees. 

I have plexiglas on most of my regular Langstroth hives as inner covers with 1 inch holes drilled & screened. On these hives (every one of them) the bees have the screens completely blocked with propolis. 

I haven't decided if I would use plexiglas again as inner covers or not yet. It's handy for a quick check of the hive, but the bees do like to stick wax & propolis on it to mess with your view.

When I built the inner covers with plexiglas, I just removed the thin plywood and replaced it with the plexi. I tried just plexiglas without the wood frame around it, but the bees glued it down so tight it broke when I tried to remove it with a hive tool.


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## dawnswir (Feb 23, 2020)

Thank you. I have regular top bar hives with windows on one of the long sides. I do prefer my TB over my standard Langstroth set ups, but do not like the frameless nature of TB hives. I love the windows for being able to see them with out bothering them. With Lang frames, I wasn't sure if windows on the sides would let me see much of anything, but I could tell where most of the action is, even with the frames blocking most of the view. Maybe I will put the windows in and not worry about plexiglass for the inner cover and just use boards to see small sections at a time. I am treatment free and don't mess with my bees much, hoping that my mutt bees can make it on their own or not. This past year was the first where 2 out of three hives made it through the winter. One was a year old package bees bought from a treatment free keeper and another was a batch caught in a swarm trap, hopefully from an old cabin that has bees in for over 40 years. I am hoping that the genetics are good and strong.
On another note, I am looking at plans from Abbott Farm https://www.abbottsustainablefarms.com/long-langstroth-hive and horizontal hive plans that include screened bottom with oil pans, gable roof with ventilation, my entrance at the front and not on the side, Screened Bottom For Long Hives | Free Plans | Natural Beekeeping 
Not strong on my carpentry skills, but comfortable with power tools, and can get help from real carpenters. I hope to combine plans to get what I want and not have to design the whole thing myself. I am in central Virginia, zone 7a. Not terribly cold winters and hot humid summers. Any advice or sites you think might be good to look at, please let me know.
Thank you,
virginia


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## GregB (Dec 26, 2017)

dawnswir said:


> I am treatment free


How long have you been TF?
Thanks.


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