# State Honey Label Requirements



## K.E.N. (May 5, 2011)

Take a look at Mannlake .com They have basic labels that should be good just about anywhere. Check the FDA for label requirements in your state or your local health dept. Your local health dept. should be able to point you in the right direction since they usually over see the food processing industry.


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## PCM (Sep 18, 2007)

Most states I believe have what they call Tailgate Laws;
That means YOU can sell YOUR honey at a farmers market or at your home address with out any problems.
If you wholesale to a grocery store, a whole new set of laws take affect, a whole new ballgame !

PCM


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

The word "Honey" must be larger type than any other word on the label. The Company name or producer name should be on the Label. The address must appear on the Label. The Weight of the honey should be in the center, near the bottom of the label.

Only packers who pack over a certain amount of honey need the country of origin on ther label, if you sell honey from other countries. Are you planning on selling forgien honey? If you sell only US Honey, you don't need Country of Origin on the Label.

Maybe there is a Weights and Measures Dept. in your State who could tell you what is required.


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## challenger (May 27, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> The word "Honey" must be larger type than any other word on the label. The Company name or producer name should be on the Label. The address must appear on the Label. The Weight of the honey should be in the center, near the bottom of the label.
> 
> Only packers who pack over a certain amount of honey need the country of origin on ther label, if you sell honey from other countries. Are you planning on selling forgien honey? If you sell only US Honey, you don't need Country of Origin on the Label.
> 
> Maybe there is a Weights and Measures Dept. in your State who could tell you what is required.


Can you tell me where you found these label requirements please?
Thanks-Howard


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## FindlayBee (Aug 2, 2009)

This should help you out:

http://www.honey.com/nhb/industry/labeling-information/


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

challenger said:


> Can you tell me where you found these label requirements please?
> Thanks-Howard


I don't recall where I got them from. I would think that your NC Dept of Weights and Measures, or the equivelent, would be able to tell you what is required. Or, you could just go to your local grocery store, Food Lion or Piggly Wiggly, and look at the labels on honey jars on the shelf. Local Brands, if they carry them, and Store Brand especially.

You may find things denoted that you don't need, such as Country of Origin, but everything you do need should be there. You can always do more than required, if you think it will help sell your honey.


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## Tia (Nov 19, 2003)

Most states do not have a honey standard. Florida does and NC is working toward putting one in place. There is an effort afoot to get a National Honey Standard. It would be a good thing that would protect us honest beeks/honey producers from those who adulterate the honey they sell. Check out http://www.ncbeekeepers.org/Honey Standard.pdf. Maybe you want to get it started in NM.


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## guyross (Feb 18, 2011)

Weight in ounces and kilograms.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Check the FDA for label requirements in your state or your local health dept.


The FDA is Federal and has no requirements for honey. It is when you start shipping across state lines that you have to worry about making other states happy. I wouldn't go nuts on the labels until you want to get serious. At that point the processing of the honey will be more of a concern than the label. If you put your name and address on the label you are implying that it is your honey not someone else's. If yours is all gone and you then get a customer that whats more the temptation is to supply them with someone else's... with your label or theirs???


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I would leave the weight off unless you are going to measure (and that brings in a whole bunch of calibrations issues). Just tell the customer what size jar they are buying.


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## DeeAnna (Nov 5, 2010)

Can't give the source for Mark B's info, but here is similar info with sources included. Kindly note that the net weight IS A REQUIREMENT, not something to be omitted on a whim.

From Nat'l Honey Board, http://www.honey.com/nhb/industry/labeling-information/

Labels MUST communicate the following:

The “Common” Name of the Product
The word “honey” must be visible on the label. The name of a plant or blossom may be used if it is the primary floral source for the honey. Honey must be labeled with its common or usual name on the front of your package. (i.e. “Honey” or “Clover Honey”)

Net Weight
The net weight of your product (excluding packaging), both in pounds/ounces and in metric weight (g) must be included in the lower third of your front label panel in easy-to-read type. (i.e. Net Wt. 16 oz. (454 g)) When determining net weight, use the government conversion factor of 1 ounce (oz) = 28.3495 grams or 1 pound (lb.) = 453.592 grams. Round after making the calculation – not before. Use no more than three digits after the decimal point on the package. One may round down the final weight to avoid overstating the contents. When rounding, use typical mathematical rounding rules.

Ingredients
Single ingredient products (such as honey) do not have to name that single ingredient when already used in the common or usual name on the front panel. However, if there are ingredients other than honey, you must list them in an ingredient statement. Some exceptions are spices, flavorings and incidental additives (additives which have no functional role and with minimal presence in the finished product) which have special rules.

The type size for ingredient listings must be no less than 1/16th inch as measured by the small letter “o” or by the large letter “O” if all caps are used in the declaration. There are exemptions that allow smaller type sizes for small packages.

Contact Information
The label must let consumers know who put the product on the market and how to contact that person. The name and the address of the manufacturer, packer or distributor of a packaged food product are required to appear on the label of the packaged food. This information, sometimes referred to as the “signature line,” must appear on the front label panel or the information panel. If space permits, include full address and telephone number. The information must be in a type size that is at least 1/16th inch tall. 


From MN Dept of Ag, http://www.mda.state.mn.us/food/safety/honeylabel.aspx

These instructions apply to liquid and comb honey only, not processed honey, which has all the requirements of processed food.

The principal display panel must be large enough to clearly accommodate all required label information without crowding or obscuring designs. All information on the label must be prominent and conspicuous, but in no case may the letters and numbers be less than 1/16 inch high.

Product identity must be on the label, i. e., honey. A complete list of ingredients, if other than honey, including standardized food products, must be on the label in order of predominance by weight if there are two or more ingredients. All artificial colors must be specifically listed. Include your name, and address (including zip code) on the label.

The net quantity of contents must be expressed in terms of weight or measure. This declaration of contents must be expressed both in ounces and full unit if one to four pounds, or one pint to one gallon. The metric equivalent is sometimes required. The declaration must be located in the lower one-third of the label separated from all other print. If the weight is more than one pound, fractions of a pound are expressed as a decimal, e.g., 1 1/2 pounds is 1.5 lb. The declaration must be in letters and numbers in a type and size relative to the area of the label panel of the package as follows:

Not less than 1/16 inch in height for a label of 5 square inches or less.
Not less that 1/8 inch in height for a label of more than 5 square inches but less than 25 square inches.
Not less than 3/16 inch in height for a label more than 25 square inches.

To convert ounces to grams multiply by 28.4 and round off to grams. To convert pounds to grams multiply by 454.

Don't make health claims on a food label. Health claims are subject to special nutritional labeling.

All labeling must be truthful and accurate. Food standards must not be violated.

The US Grade is required on honey labels. Grade is primarily moisture; Grade A = 18.6% moisture and freedom from defects (no foreign material) if filtered.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Tia said:


> Most states do not have a honey standard.


Which has nothing to do w/ what is required on the Label, except that what is in the jar be what is on the label. HONEY.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

guyross said:


> Weight in ounces and kilograms.


Pounds and ounces are traditional and required if selling at a mkt or especially a store. From your home, not so much. But, if you are having them printed, have them made so you can use them under all conditions. To save cost of production.

Sometimes metric units are found in parenthesise after weight in standard units. But, it isn't required.

All of my Labels have 8oz., 1lb., 2lb., 5lb. printed on them in the center close to the bottom of the label w/ nothing below it. Comb honey is sold by each, not by weight. Weight on comb honey is not necassary. Some people sell Ross Rounds w/ a weight measure on the Label. I believe the printed labels for Round Combs, which come from Dadant or Mann Lake or where ever, state 8 oz.

Excellent DeeAnna. Good job.

I see nothing wrong w/ selling honey under my Label which didn't come from my own hives. I do it all the time. My cols don't go to FL or Maine, so they don't make Citrus or Blueberry Blossom honey. I know who I am buying from, I buy from the producer. Labels for those varietal honeys say "Produced by friends of Squeak Creek Apiaries".

All the other honey I buy is produced by cols in the same area as mine, the St. Lawrence Valley. Once I buy it, when I do, I mix theirs and mine and label it under my Squeak Creek Apiaries label. There is nothing underhanded in doing so. People buy Squeak Creek Honey for many reasons. Me being one of those reasons. Locally produced being another. One must know their product and stand behind it. Just like Mann Lake does. Mann Lake doesn't produce everything which bears the name Mann Lake.


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## deknow (Jul 17, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> I see nothing wrong w/ selling honey under my Label which didn't come from my own hives. I do it all the time....I know who I am buying from, I buy from the producer. Labels for those varietal honeys say "Produced by friends of Squeak Creek Apiaries".


Exactly right Mark. As far as I can tell, almost no one does this.

I believe that the only Agency that has looked at our labels critically is the State Health Dept. We have a certified food production/wholesale facility (required if you are bottling any amount of honey that you didn't produce from your own hives....probably one reason why beeks around here don't talk about buying in honey)...and we are inspected annually.

deknow


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Riskybizz said:


> I am in the process of creating a new bottling label for retail sales of honey. We sell mostly at farmers markets etc.





> I would leave the weight off unless you are going to measure


It's what I would do.



> All labeling must be truthful and accurate.


How do you prove accuracy without a calibrated scale?

When most people buy from a farmers market they assume the person selling is the supplier especially when their personal name is written on the label. If it is a company name not so much. Stores don't care where the honey comes from. That's why we don't buy from them.



> All labeling must be truthful and accurate.


Be very careful about pasting labels on food products that you don't have documentation to prove its validity. In other words, don't try to be a big boy if you are not. Better to stay under the radar.


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

I've been and so have many others who have posted, have been where you are right now. Get it right the first time. Selling in stores *requires* alot of information and the information is also required to be a certain font size. I know i am in Canada, but labelling between both countries are somewhat the same. Four us, we are also required to grade the product. Grading requires the use of a refractometer for moisture content and a Jack's color scale. Both the weight and grade must be a certain font size depending on the size of container. Your product will also have to be lotted. This is important for traceback. If you buy honey to sell under your label, it should come with a source ID...who what where, when, and a lot number. Then when you bottle it, it should have a lot number you give it...all for traceback. Trace back is important incase some one gets sick or it is found to have a problem. The lot numbers should define what bee yard and extraction (ie 1st, 2nd extraction). Do not give all your honey the same lot number The reason is, if your honey is found to be in question, how do you prove to the USDA which honey came from where when the lot number is all the same....make sense. So for us, our lot number gives the yard, date by year, month, day it is extracted. It is important to keep good records.

You are also required to have a nutrition facts label which your national honey council will probaby have as a download in PDF format. If not, Mann Lake as approved nutrition facts labels.

Your scale needs to be an inspected scale. Start at restaurant supply stores, then look in the yellow pages under the heading of scales. From there, they will point you in the direction of purchasing a scale which is certified. Then according you your federal laws, your scale will have to be inspected at stated intervals. 
Ours are inspected yearly. We bought a digital scale for around the $200 mark. It is a table top one with that increases at .05grams. It also converts from grams, KG, ounces and pounds.
Start off buying a scale which is inspected. Buying one which is not and going to get it inspected costs as much or more than buying an inspected scale.
Most major centers have stores which inspect scales because of factories, gas pumps, mining and what not. I just started looking in the yellow pages of our closest major city

In order to sell in stores, your extraction and bottling facilitues need to be certified, probably, and i am guessing here, by the USDA...our CFIA equivalent. Being inpsected is not a bad thing. Getting the paper work in place and the first audit done is probably the hardest. After that the yearly audits are easy. Not because the big feds let things slide then, but that you know what is expected and can honor that commitment.

One last tid bit... Our grading is, well for example...Canada No 1. Well Canada #1 does not mean that it is from the country of Canada, but that it meets the Canadian set standards for #1 honey in both color and clarity, and moisture. COOL (country of origin labeling ) is different. This states the country from which it comes from. And often in stores it is on the back in very fine print.

Really the last tid bit. In Canada, and i am not sure about the US standard, but we are required to sell in specific sizes jars. So, unless we are given a special permit to sell in other sizes, for us, the standard sizes are, 250g, 375g, 500g, 1kg, 1.5kg, 2kg, 2.5kg and so on. I gather from seeing on line some products searches, there might be some standard sizes in the US as well.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Aren't you glad you asked what the requirements are???


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> How do you prove accuracy without a calibrated scale?
> 
> Be very careful about pasting labels on food products that you don't have documentation to prove its validity.


You buy honey jars, fill to the proper level and apply the label w/ the corresponding weight on it. Calibrated scales aren't necassary.

Your other comment? I don't know what sort of documentation you think you are writting about.

Nutrition Facts Labels are only required for those Selling over a certain amount of honey. Measured in tons, I believe. Someone else will have to help you there.

Glad you asked, Acebird? Why not? How else would they learn? Maybe if you didn't fly under the radar you would learn these things too.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I dont sell much (4 cases so far this year), but all of my honey in packaged in un-labled, 1-pint mason jars. When I feel the need to establish "brand presence", I may start labling it. Or, if I start selling enough to attract the attention of local authorities.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Acebird said:


> .....If you put your name and address on the label you are implying that it is your honey not someone else's. If yours is all gone and you then get a customer that whats more the temptation is to supply them with someone else's... with your label or theirs???


It implies no such thing. A name and address denotes the name and location of the seller. Period.

If a label goes on to say that the honey is from your own hives and it is, in fact, from someone elses, then that is a false statement. If not, all the label is stating (not implying,) is that honey is being sold by the person/firm listed on the label. There is nothing being implied.

Wayne


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## Beeboy01 (May 20, 2008)

Here in Florida there is a push to allow small timers to bottle under the "Cottage Industry" law for food handling. All the labling is the same as with the larger packers but you must also include something along the line of "Bottled under the Cottage Industry Guidelines". You don't need a food handling licence or certified kitchen but can only sell up to $15,000.00 worth of honey a year. The sales have to be retail, direct to the consumer and not bulk to a store. This will allow direct retail sales at farmer markets and flea markets for bee keepers.
I think it was Nancy Gentry who pushed to get the Florida Honey Standard law passed. I met her once and boy is she a ball of fire, really knows her stuff. She worked with the Florida Dept of Agriculture to define what honey really is, the source and moisture content are two of the main points which are in the bill. The bill was aimed at the adulterated honey that was imported from China a few years ago. 
I'm in the same boat as Nabber and sell maybe 4-5 cases of pint or quart mason jars to friends. I seem to run out of honey to sell every spring right around time for my first extraction.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

sqkcrk said:


> Maybe if you didn't fly under the radar you would learn these things too.


Good advice. A local store here was ordered to remove honey from their shelves that was produced "under the radar." At least here in Maine, flying above the radar is no big deal.

Taking bad advice can cost you time, money and good will. If you want to run a business, large or small, it's best to pay attention to the advice offered by those with actual experience in the trade.

Wayne


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## Beeboy01 (May 20, 2008)

I've been asked two or three times if I could sell my raw bottled honey to health food stores and local high end food stores. My answer has always been "no" just because of the licence and food handling requirments needed. Setting up a food handling kitchen, getting it inspected and licenced and then getting a food handling certificate for myself just doesn't make any sense for the little honey I produce. My market so far is friends and neighbors with about half given away. It's a hobby that pays for itself on a good year, not a business. I take my hat and veil off to anybody who can make a living with bees, it has to be hard work.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Just tell the customer what size jar they are buying.


I hope yoiu aren't planning on being a Lawyer, because that is really bad advice. Give away honey in whatever size jar you want. But, as soon as you start selling honey, you will find that it MUST be sold by weight, not by volume.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Speaking of bad advice, last weekend, a local agricultural chain store had one of their occasional events where local folk can sell their chickens, small animals, garden produce, etc. I was there to sell my excess rabbits and was looking at the critters other folks brought. I heard a bit of conversation that went along these lines:

"I was thinking of bringing preserves to sell but I heard that it required a license."

"Oh no. I sell mine all the time. What you do is say you are selling the jar. Everything inside it is free. Anyone can sell jars without a license."

"Oh, that's a great idea!"

I guess it's as good an idea as some we've seen offered .There's no shortage of "experts," online or off, offering free expert advice and worth every penny.

Wayne


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Is that what is known as a shell game? That's the nuttiest thing I have heard in the last cpl hours.


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## Bodhi (Aug 30, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I would leave the weight off unless you are going to measure


You measure it by filling it. 1 lb jars hold 1 lb of honey. Weight is required on the label in the bottom 1/3.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> You buy honey jars, fill to the proper level and apply the label w/ the corresponding weight on it. Calibrated scales aren't necassary.


Where is the proper level? If the jar is the mode of measurement than telling the customer what size jar he is buying is the same thing. Putting a weight on a package and having no way to verify it (through documentation) is bogus and in the real world not acceptable.

Documentation ... read Honeyshack's post. He about covered it. It is all about traceability and a possible need for recall. So Mark, are you a big boy or just trying to act like you are?

Some people pick out a name and type up business cards and think that meets the requirement for owing a business. Then they go one step further and paste on a label with all the supposed "requirements" and think they are golden. Long before you get to the point where you are selling to Walmart you will have changed your labels 100 times.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Where is the proper level? Putting a weight on a package and having no way to verify it (through documentation) is bogus and in the real world not acceptable.
> 
> So Mark, are you a big boy or just trying to act like you are?
> 
> Long before you get to the point where you are selling to Walmart you will have changed your labels 100 times.


Proper level? I guess if you have to ask, you have never filled and weighed jars of honey. after bottling hundreds of thousands of pounds of honey, the amount of honey in my jars have never been called into question.

Am I a big boy or just trying to act like one? I don't know what you are driving at. What do you consider a "big boy" and what does that have to do w/ anything? 28,000 lbs bottled and sold last year.

WalMart? Who wants to sell to WalMart? Honey sold at WalMart is probably like everything else sold at WalMart, Chinese.

Besides, once one has settled on their label, why would there be any need to change it? Again, you are out of your element.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

I'm simple minded (my wife tells me so), so...

Joe from Joe's Grocery, Juice, and Turnips Store sees some of my honey sitting on a shelf at my house. He tells me he would like to buy two cases to sell at his store. I sell him the two cases at my regular retail price with my regular homemade label on it. He carries the honey to his store and sells it to the public. This new customer will help buy up my couple of hundred gallons of honey that my bees produce. The customers are happy, Joe's happy, I'm happy. Then...

A health official comes to inspect his store and sees the honey. Will there be an issue?

A tax official comes to inspect...rinse, repeat. ???

Ed


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## Monkadelic (Feb 5, 2010)

Beeboy01 said:


> I've been asked two or three times if I could sell my raw bottled honey to health food stores and local high end food stores. My answer has always been "no" just because of the licence and food handling requirments needed. Setting up a food handling kitchen, getting it inspected and licenced and then getting a food handling certificate for myself just doesn't make any sense for the little honey I produce.


Beeboy, from the way I understand it from one of my mentors, all you need is access to a commercial kitchen (in other words, a restaurant). Your health inspector comes in, sees you bottle and gives you a certificate, then you're good to go. I already have a restaurant lined up to bottle in, just so I can be on the right side of our bottling laws. If you do get that big, befriend a local restaurant owner!


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

If anyone has ever had the FDA, Dept. of Ag., Bureau of Weights and Measures, IRS, State Department of Revenue, State health officials, or local health department give you a fine, or have you pull honey off of the shelves, please post about it under this thread. How about some real life experiences rather than speculation? 

Anybody?


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Intheswamp said:


> A health official comes to inspect his store and sees the honey. Will there be an issue?
> 
> A tax official comes to inspect...rinse, repeat. ???
> 
> Ed


I would doubt health officials will give jars of honey a second thought. They are involved in certification and show up when there is a problem at the consumer end that gets traced back to the supplier.

Tax officials don't look at your honey they look at your books. If you drive a beamer and have a garage full of toys and don't show the income to support your purchases you raise a flag for them to come and visit. If you have a "business" and only show expenses but little income that gets them excited too.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Intheswamp said:


> A health official comes to inspect his store and sees the honey. Will there be an issue?
> 
> A tax official comes to inspect...rinse, repeat. ???
> 
> Ed


Could be. I don't know the rules and regs where you live. But, the Store Owner should know what he can and cannot sell. and, if it goes down that way, what have you lost? The honey would be pulled from the shelf until Rules and Regs have been met. You wouldn't have done anything wrong. imo. The Store Owner's the one who should have known better.

Call the Regulatory Agency in your State and ask them. If compliance isn't worth the cost, don't sell your honey that way.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I would doubt health officials will give jars of honey a second thought. They are involved in certification and show up when there is a problem at the consumer end that gets traced back to the supplier.


WRONG.

Health Inspectors make visits to Markets to see if food is being handled properly. As do other Ag&Mkts employees who check weights, measures and proper labeling.

Case in point, as per Nabbers request. At one time I sold honeybears w/out labels to a few stores. Because I couldn't find a label that fit the bear to my liking. Ag&Mkts guy told the store they couldn't sell them that way. That the bears had to have a Label w/ Name, address, Product Name and weight. So the bears got pulled. No fine.

Another case was when a customer kept the 1/2 gallon jugs of honey in his meat locker, for some reason, and juces from the packaged meat dripped down onto the jugs of honey. He had to throw them out. No fine, as far as I know. 

Neither case warranted a fine against me. No notice from the Inspectors. No visit either.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> WRONG.
> 
> Neither case warranted a fine against me. No notice from the Inspectors. No visit either.


According to your own words you were in violation by selling honey that was unlabeled which is kinda the point that I am trying to get across. Health inspectors are not worried about the little back yard bee keeper.
I may be at the honey booth at the New York State Fair. Are you going to be there? We can check out how strict they are with the rules at a major state function with lots of food items.


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

I guess it really depends on wether you are selling to a legit supermarket or out of your front yard/corner lot from a farm stand. If to a super market, follow the national food labeling guidelines and you should be OK. Reference this page from the National Honey Board for labeling requirements. http://www.honey.com/nhb/industry/labeling-information/ (I assume the NHB knows what they are talking about). 

Besides the labeling issue, if you are selling through a legit outlet, you should probably be using a certified commissary or commercial kitchen while bottling your honey, or build a locally certified honey extraction/bottling facility yourself. But that is were _local_ regulations come in to play, and this will vary greatly from state to state. Farmer's markets typically go strictly by local heatlh ordinances (City or County), so anything goes there. 

Taxes have nothing to do with labeling reqiurements. If you sell honey and make a profit, Uncle Sams says that you must report it. Try to claim depreciation on equipment or subtract expenses to show little or no profit? - better be sure Uncle Sam doesnt consider your business to be a hobby. Better be sure that _you_ know the difference between a business and a hobby. 

As for flying under the radar, each person must decide for themselves. Obvioulsy if you are selling 1000 pounds of honey you are not below the radar. I sell less than 100 pounds of honey to friends, family, and coworkers - BFD (incidently, my sister runs a pharmacy in a small Missouri town and sells my un-labeled honey to customers from a display on the counter. I am probably breaking interstate commerces laws by transporting un-labeled honey across state lines).


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Interesting, no mention of grade.


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## waynesgarden (Jan 3, 2009)

Acebird said:


> I would doubt health officials will give jars of honey a second thought.


Wrong. Bad advice. 

A local store was ordered to pull honey from their shelves that was produced by a local beekeeper "flying under the radar." The beekeeper probably listened to someone with no experience and even less knowledge of the subject. He learned the hard way.

Wayne


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## MTINAZ (Jan 15, 2010)

Call your state and local health departments. They will let you know what the requirements are. When we called, as long as you were not adding anything to the honey it is considered a natural product and did not require a certified kitchen. The Internet is a great source but sometimes you have to make the phone call to the people in charge that make the decisions for your area.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> According to your own words you were in violation by selling honey that was unlabeled which is kinda the point that I am trying to get across. Health inspectors are not worried about the little back yard bee keeper.
> I may be at the honey booth at the New York State Fair. Are you going to be there? We can check out how strict they are with the rules at a major state function with lots of food items.


Early days and I didn't know any better. No, you seem to imply that regulations aren't worth knowing, understanding and complying w/. I didn't break any rules, the Market did. They could have applied a label and sold all they wanted. There is no law which says I can't sell unlabeled honey to someone else who is going to put their own label on it.

No, not going to go to the Fair. Too busy working. RU planning on selling unlabeled honey? Or labeled honey w/out what is required? Do you have a Product Liability Insurance Policy? If you don't present a copy of it to the person in charge of the Booth, you won't be selling your own honey. Do you have any of your own honey to sell at the Fair?

Lots of things go un-noticed for a time. That doesn't make them right. Like speeding. Most people get away w/ it. But it is still illegal.

Have fun at the Fair. Have you registered w/ Hans? Or are you just going to show up? Going w/ BC?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Interesting, no mention of grade.


Grade is not required on labeled Honey, as far as I know.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> There is no law which says I can't sell unlabeled honey to someone else who is going to put their own label on it.


I think that would be a complete farce when it comes to regulations and controls. Maybe you can quietly ask about that but selling it to someone else and then have them label it with out documentation makes no sense to me. You might get away with sealed boxes with a label but somehow the contents have to be identified.
I am not against regulation, quite the opposite. I don't feel it is necessary for a back yard beek or someone testing the waters for a business. I even feel if you were intending to go into business you should not do it from the hobby side. Like starting any business, I think you should work for someone else if for no other reason than to learn the ropes and pitfalls.

I have no intention of selling any honey to anyone ever. Doesn't mean I won't sell a jar or two more as a favor. My expertise is not in beekeeping and anything more than a hobby would be too much work for what you get out of it. There are easier ways for me to make money.

Our club is involved in a booth and they asked for volunteers. Their will be honey for sale but it is supplied from commercial beeks and I don't know who they are. Usually Bill goes. I would be very surprised if he doesn't spend a lot of time there. He enjoys teaching people about bees.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> I think that would be a complete farce when it comes to regulations and controls. Maybe you can quietly ask about that but selling it to someone else and then have them label it with out documentation makes no sense to me. You might get away with sealed boxes with a label but somehow the contents have to be identified.
> 
> I have no intention of selling any honey to anyone ever. My expertise is not in beekeeping
> 
> Their will be honey for sale but it is supplied from commercial beeks and I don't know who they are.


Whenever I sell honey a receipt is produced for the buyer and for my records. That's documentation. Every box says Honey right on it and includes the size of the container and how many are in the box. They are standard honey jars.

You have no intention of selling honey and beekeeping is not your expertise, yet you have no problem suggesting to people what they should do. Now that's a farce, to use your word.

If there is ever a discussion on something you do know something about, like snow removal, because you go on about things you know next to nothing about, no one will take you seriously. Maybe you should stick to what you know or just to asking questions of those who do know and do have experience w/.

Not all the Honey at the State Fair Booth is supplied by commercial mbeekeepers, though, I imagine, most of it is, because they are the ones who have it to sell. The honey is bought by the Empire State Honey Producers Association, Inc, marked up and sold. Anyone can sell their Honey there. If they have the liability insurance, as I mentioned before.

What will you, Acebird, be doing there? Just selling honey? Have fun.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Whenever I sell honey a receipt is produced for the buyer and for my records. That's documentation. Every box says Honey right on it and includes the size of the container and how many are in the box. They are standard honey jars.


Yes that is documentation. Does the documentation state what weight is in each jar? Is there a way to trace back to the origin of the honey? How it was packed? Do you use lot codes?

I don't know what they intend for me to do at the fair. It was suggested passing out literature, giving out information (telling people what I don't know), maybe selling honey.

Liability insurance for what and how big a policy?

I think most of what I said is what I would do and I think there are some who agree with the simple concept as a small time artisan. Do you think everyone puts a glorified state approved label on every jar of honey they sell?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Each individual jar? Yes, of course. All cases of 1lb jars of honey have 12 jars of honey w/ 1lb of honey in them. And so forth thru all the sizes.

Lot codes? No.

Liability Insurance? As I think I said, Product Liability Insurance. I'm not sure for how much, but one million dollars is pretty standard, I believe.

I have no idea what everyone does, I've only said what I understood State Requirements were.

You never answered? what do you mean by "Are you a big boy or just someone acting like a big boy?". Whatever a big boy is.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Typically, when you work with a label printer, they are familiar with the regulations as to what is required by the law on the label. If you print your own, YOU must do the home work. 

Be careful, laws are changing, we are working on defining Honey in Wisconsin.

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Here too. Have you seen the latest articles on trans-shipped and adulterated/contaminated Chinese honey? Stuff banned from sale in Europe being sold here? There aught to be a law. Oh, there is. Needs enforcing.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Here too. Have you seen the latest articles on trans-shipped and adulterated/contaminated Chinese honey? Stuff banned from sale in Europe being sold here? There aught to be a law. Oh, there is. Needs enforcing.


 .

But Mark, how can we chastise the honorable guy holding our lunch money? ...give us your tired, your poor, your tainted and adulterated food...


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> You never answered? what do you mean by "Are you a big boy or just someone acting like a big boy?". Whatever a big boy is.


I never saw the question. A big boy is a legitimate business that works full time and usually has many employees selling to chain stores and outlets like Walmart.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Well then, yes. I am a legitimate business that works full time and sells to stores, chain and otherwise. So I guess I fit your Big Boy criteria.

But I don't know anyone who can afford to sell to WalMart. That would take a very large Packer. someone who can handle all of WalMarts needs. Otherwise the margin wouldn't be large enuf. And, even tho I hardly ever go into WalMarts, so I haven't seen what they sell recently, I can't imagine that they sell exclusivelly US produced honey. But, I seem to recall seeing SueBee packed honey on their shelf once. Which doesn't mean it wasn't blended w/ forgein honey.


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

Ace, I am glad that you have admitted that you will not sell honey to anyone, except a few jars to a few close friends. But when you do sell a few jars to friends and realize, "Hmm, this is a way to make a few extra bucks". Then put a label on that will meet whatever requirements are needed in your state. It will save you a lot of trouble down the road. Good Luck and Good Beekeeping. TED


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Intheswamp said:


> .
> 
> But Mark, how can we chastise the honorable guy holding our lunch money?


How can we protect the integrity of our food supply? As time goes by more and more of our food will be imported. We must establish and maintain standards or we will be firther subjected to tainted food.

Oh. I thought you were being serious there for a second. My bad.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> But I don't know anyone who can afford to sell to WalMart.


Bob Binnie runs Blue Ridge Honey Company. He has contracts with a number of WalMart stores. Is he a 'big boy'? I suppose. On the other hand, he pretty much ran the company by himself until the past year or so.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Exception to every rule? Don't know him. I wonder how he got that contract? What consecions he had to make.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Exception to every rule? Don't know him. I wonder how he got that contract? *What consecions he had to make.*


...and he had better be *very* careful or he could end up expanding his operation and suddenly his product isn't "good enough" or "cheap enough" or.....I wonder how many dreams have been dashed by Sam Walton's legacy? :v:


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

Intheswamp said:


> I wonder how many dreams have been dashed by Sam Walton's legacy? :v:


 I wonder how many fortunes have been made by Sam Walton's legacy?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

10. His children. Heh, heh.


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## beemandan (Dec 5, 2005)

sqkcrk said:


> 10. His children. Heh, heh.


I can't argue with that.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Who can? I just made it up.


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

I would think Joe Hatfield isn't doing badly. Interesting article here. Tidbit...Walmart is the 6th largest export market of China...just behind Germany (a country, in case someone didn't know that  ).

Ed

PS...I agree, Sam Walton's children have done ok...probably not worried about the price of eggs in China.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

I have person experience selling to Sam's. They placed a million dollar blanket order on an exclusive product, to which I had to pre-order supplies to meet, and then only took about 1/3 of the blanket, leaving me sitting on all of the exclusive components. I telll everyone to avoud shopping there.

Crazy Roland


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Roland said:


> I have person experience selling to Sam's. They placed a million dollar blanket order on an exclusive product, to which I had to pre-order supplies to meet, and then only took about 1/3 of the blanket, leaving me sitting on all of the exclusive components. I telll everyone to avoud shopping there.
> 
> Crazy Roland


Sounds like you didn't have a protection clause in your purchase order for cancellations. Has that made you any smarter dealing with other clients?

I am really not sticking up for Walmart because they play the game like all the other major corps do only better. I hate them all because I see no difference between them. Once you start worshiping money all good human traits become low priorities.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Once you start worshiping money all good human traits become low priorities.


Where exactly is the line between trying to run a profitable business and "worshipping money". I just want to make sure that I don't cross it.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Too late.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Darn I was hoping it didnt start until at least "enormous" possibly not until "humongous".  Yes I'm stalling we have a "large" amount of honey to extract today.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

> Where exactly is the line between trying to run a profitable business and "worshipping money". I just want to make sure that I don't cross it.


It is a Huge black line. The Walmart example is a perfect case. Honesty is out the window and your word (promises) mean nothing. EVERYTHING is justified by net gain. You will know if you get there because you tend to smile when a transaction works out great for you and it hurts someone else. Did you ever realize how much politicians smile?

If you are trying to run a profitable business you truly want your customers happy many times giving more than you get. You never cope the attitude that there is an endless supply of customers (typical stereotype - use car salesman) such that you can schmooze somebody that shouldn't buy the car. You absolutely never feel the customer has no choice and they have to come to you (least I say oil companies, chemical, and pharmaceutical). You are willing to share the wealth with your employees (easy to tell, they are happy and like their work). Look around, take a pole see how many people are happy with their work. It is a sad number.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> Yes I'm stalling we have a "large" amount of honey to extract today.


See? I told you. You honeybee overlord. How can you live w/ yourself, living off the lives of millions? I would have said blood, sweat, and tears, but I don't think bees sweat or produce tears and they have hemolymph, not blood.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Honesty is out the window and your word (promises) mean nothing.
> 
> cope the attitude that there is an endless supply of customers


"cope the attitude"? What does "cope" mean?

Do you feel WalMart isn't honest? If anybody feels they don't know what they are going to get when they shop at WalMart, they haven't shopped there at all. Low Price, Marginal to Good Quality, Low Service. It ain't Neimann-Marcus, where High Price, High Quality and High Service are the norm. You get what you pay for.

If you are running a business, both sides need to feel they got something from the transaction and got enuf of what they wanted or feel they need to make the repeat of business most likely. Otherwise, the business won't thrive and the customer will seek satisfaction somewhere else.

The same is true in Politics. If the electorate didn't feel like they got a reasonable amount of what they needed from a certain candidate, the candidate wouldn't be re-elected.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> "cope the attitude"? What does "cope" mean?


"cop" misspelling.



> If you are running a business, both sides need to feel they got something from the transaction and got enuf of what they wanted or feel they need to make the repeat of business most likely. Otherwise, the business won't thrive and the customer will seek satisfaction somewhere else.


Is that how you feel when you go to the pump, put your money in the bank, pay your utilities, and buy things you need at places like Home depot,Lowes, and the grocery store. You don't find prices always higher at the cash register than what is posted in the isles? They go to the same school of training because they all have the same excuse. "Oh somebody must of put the item in the wrong place". Three weeks later you still see the item in the same place, under the "wrong" price.



> The same is true in Politics. If the electorate didn't feel like they got a reasonable amount of what they needed from a certain candidate, the candidate wouldn't be re-elected.


 Do they give back the money and benefits they have taken while they were in office? Is the electorate aware of what they have taken or given away and is there ever any restitution?


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## Nabber86 (Apr 15, 2009)

> Is that how you feel when you go to the pump, put your money in the bank, pay your utilities, and buy things you need at places like Home depot,Lowes, and the grocery store. You don't find prices always higher at the cash register than what is posted in the isles? They go to the same school of training because they all have the same excuse. "Oh somebody must of put the item in the wrong place". Three weeks later you still see the item in the same place, under the "wrong" price.


That's exactly how I feel when I go to the pump (completely satisfied). We have the cheapest gas prices in the world. Gotta love America. After I fill up, I even thank God that I dont live in Europe or Canada. 

I also love Home Depot. We bough a crappy house and I have spent the bettter part of 10 years remodling on my own. Probably saved $25,000 doing it myself with the help of Home Depot.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Acebird said:


> Look around, take a pole see how many people are happy with their work.


 Lets not bring ethnicity into this . I'll keep an eye out for one of those huge black lines especially when I am around a humongous business.


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Acebird said:


> Is that how you feel when you go to the pump, put your money in the bank, pay your utilities, and buy things you need at places like Home depot,Lowes, and the grocery store. You don't find prices always higher at the cash register than what is posted in the isles?
> 
> Do they give back the money and benefits they have taken while they were in office? Is the electorate aware of what they have taken or given away and is there ever any restitution?


Having the cheapest priced fuel and food on the Planet, of course I feel that way when I go to the grocery store or gas pump. So should you. Just because you think things should be less costly doesn't mean much. Everyone wants a deal. Some want more than they deserve. I think you fall into the latter camp.

I have never found the price of something different at the register than posted on the shelf. How often does that happen to you? When you point it out, do you get the proper price or not? What if the price is higher on the shelf than at trhe register, do you complain about that too?

Why would an elected official give back anything after leaving office? That's not part of the contract, is it?

Restitution? For what?


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

sqkcrk said:


> See? I told you. You honeybee overlord. How can you live w/ yourself, living off the lives of millions? I would have said blood, sweat, and tears, but I don't think bees sweat or produce tears and they have hemolymph, not blood.


You were right Mark, we broke one of those nasty nickel plated chains on our uncapper today, cost us a couple hours out of our day, looks like the beekeeping gods got a little payback on me today.


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## Roland (Dec 14, 2008)

Acebird wrote-

Sounds like you didn't have a protection clause in your purchase order for cancellations. Has that made you any smarter dealing with other clients?

There may have been, but their attornies get paid more that ours, so how would that have ended?

The bottom line is that we used to sell them REAL honey, at a fair price. Not any more, not worth the trouble. I doubt there is much real honey to be had at Sam's anymore.

Crazy Roland


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

jim lyon said:


> looks like the beekeeping gods got a little payback on me today.


Instant Karma? Sorry to hear about that. Stuff happens.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> I have never found the price of something different at the register than posted on the shelf. How often does that happen to you? When you point it out, do you get the proper price or not? What if the price is higher on the shelf than at the register, do you complain about that too?


They bank on you not looking. Just scan the bar code, pay, and walk out. I catch them at least 3 times a year and you can bet I pay the posted price not the bar code price. "Find a price higher on the shelf then the register" that has never happened and I am sure it never will. The bar code system is accurate. What is happening is an intentional bait and switch otherwise the problem would be corrected before it happened again.

If you don't see this happening, you are not looking.



> Why would an elected official give back anything after leaving office? That's not part of the contract, is it?


Supposing you hired someone to harvest your honey from 500 hives for a set fee. If they didn't do what they promised would you still pay them? How about if they only did half the hives would you pay them the full amount? Supposing they harvested the honey but they sold some of it on their own or gave a bunch to their friends and families. Does a politician sign a contract? With who? Good luck with that one.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

jim lyon said:


> You were right Mark, we broke one of those nasty nickel plated chains on our uncapper today, cost us a couple hours out of our day, looks like the beekeeping gods got a little payback on me today.


How many run hours do you have on it?


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

Apples and potatoes.


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

I though so.


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## Pugs (Jul 15, 2004)

Mark, Ace,

What does any of this have to do with the topic of the thread, "State Honey Label Requirements"? 

Why don't the two of you meet somewhere, drop trou and measure? This is getting old.

Pugs


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## sqkcrk (Dec 10, 2005)

You are right Pugs. I actually thought earlier today that we should take this to Tailgater. Point taken.


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## jim lyon (Feb 19, 2006)

Agreed I plead guilty as well. FYI Ace I would guess 1000 to 1200 hours, the little locks on the splice links occasionally come apart, usually a quick fix but not today.


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## snl (Nov 20, 2009)

Great reply Pugs!


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Sorry folks ...


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## Ted Kretschmann (Feb 2, 2011)

I want to be present at the Mark/Ace duel. Guess who I will be the second for. Honey Sqeeze bears with proper state labels at ten paces.... TED


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## Bee Bliss (Jun 9, 2010)

Maybe Ace and Mark could do a tag team against a bear named "Honey". 
It'd be "sweet"!  I wonder which one could run faster! LOL


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## honeyshack (Jan 6, 2008)

Maybe Mark and Ace are one in the same, just playing with our minds. Alter egos


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## Acebird (Mar 17, 2011)

Well, at least you tried Pugs...


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## Intheswamp (Jul 5, 2011)

Acebird said:


> Well, at least you tried Pugs...


In the imortal words of Acebird himself... http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...canadian-bacon-Seriously!&p=688270#post688270

...newbee unsubscribing.


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## cg3 (Jan 16, 2011)

sqkcrk said:


> Having the cheapest priced fuel and food on the Planet, of course I feel that way when I go to the grocery store or gas pump.


Gas is considerably cheaper in Mexico where the oil biz has been nationalized.


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