# Small Scale Treatment Free (Mediterranean) Experienced Advice Needed



## EricConcE (Jan 7, 2014)

Hi everyone,
I'm hoping to gain some advice in regards to expanding a small scale treatment free operation. I'm going to try to make this as succinct as possible! I am located in coastal Portugal (zone9) and have been following the work/writing of many treatment free beekeepers in the US and UK over the past year in order to learn how to accomplish this. My hopes are to expand to roughly 30-60 hives over the next several years while working with local feral stock and VSH queens. 
My main question is: how feasible is this? I hope to be able to produce organic honey and/or provide nucs in order to sustain a sideline business and some income.
I greatly appreciate all help/advice!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Can't really help experience wise, but since nobody else has answered, can give you a little encouragement which is that some of the survivor ferals in the US are descended from Portugese AMM. Or so I read on the net, anyway.

Are there any other TF beekeepers in your area?


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## jonathan (Nov 3, 2009)

Probably Apis Mellifera Iberiensis a opposed to Amm, Oldtimer. They are closely related.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

Since all beekeeping is local, it's very difficult to give advice about Portugal when I've never kept bees there nor had a lot of conversations with people keeping bees there.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Thanks Jonathan I stand corrected, you are right.


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## AstroBee (Jan 3, 2003)

You should contact Eduardo who started the thread: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?305151-VSH-bees-and-hybridization


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

EricConcE said:


> My main question is: how feasible is this?


That depends - on the quality of your preparation and developing skills, your level of patience, the availability of self-sufficient bees, and the degree to which you can avoid drones from treating apiaries.

It isn't a simple question.

On the plus side, others seem to be able to do it, and given availability of starting stock and sound approach I don't see why you shouldn't be able to do the same. Its understood that all races of bee have the capability of raising vhs levels. That isn't the sole feature you need, but its a very good start.

My advice is to keep collecting those feral hives, and value any that you trust to be from long-lasting colonies. Keep building boxes and making more bees than you need. Otherwise, leave them alone so that the cream can rise to the top while the dregs fall out. And don't give up the day job yet!

Mike (UK)


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## EricConcE (Jan 7, 2014)

Agreed that locality affects a lot! It's been tough trying to find anybody who does have varroa resistant stock- so it looks like it's all about finding ferals in a few more months.I actually spoke to Eduardo the other day and he too is having trouble finding any Portuguese beekeepers taking a treatment free route. Anyway, ty for encouragement etc!


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

If all of them treat, there might be a reason for that.

You may need to monitor carefully to ensure you do not lose everything, as I did when treatment free.

If your goal is to produce organic honey, you can use organic treatment and the honey is organic.


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## mike bispham (May 23, 2009)

EricConcE said:


> Agreed that locality affects a lot! It's been tough trying to find anybody who does have varroa resistant stock- so it looks like it's all about finding ferals in a few more months.I actually spoke to Eduardo the other day and he too is having trouble finding any Portuguese beekeepers taking a treatment free route. Anyway, ty for encouragement etc!


There is a very informative thread here: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?277652-VSH-Breeding&highlight=vsh+assay

Mike (UK)


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## Andrew Dewey (Aug 23, 2005)

Oldtimer said:


> If all of them treat, there might be a reason for that.
> 
> You may need to monitor carefully to ensure you do not lose everything, as I did when treatment free.
> 
> If your goal is to produce organic honey, you can use organic treatment and the honey is organic.


What Oldtimer writes may be true for his location (New Zealand) but is not true for obtaining organic certification where I am (Maine, USA.) Around here you need to be able to prove that everywhere your bees might forage is land managed according to organic standards. This is in addition to what practices are permitted in your bee yard.

A few years back the USDA came up with a standard for what can be sold in the USA as organic. Unfortunately (in my opinion) they managed to change the meaning of the term "organic" - to the point where it no longer means (in a legal sense as used on product labels) what it used to mean and not what many think it ought to mean.

There is a competing certification here called Certified Naturally Grown or CNG. That focuses on practices in the hive.

I'm not certain to what extent the public cares about certifications. Pride in your product and how you produce it is what matters most.


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## Oldtimer (Jul 4, 2010)

Yes quite correct, no honey can really be guaranteed organic.

However I do know at least one certified organic beekeeper here in NZ, depends what criterion the certifying body decides to apply.


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## Sasha (Feb 22, 2005)

This beekeeper is somewhere in Spain, he is working with small cells.
http://resistantbees.com/blog/?page_id=56


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## EricConcE (Jan 7, 2014)

Luckily, the requirements for an organic certification in Portugal are much more lenient than in the States; organic management allows you to obtain an organic cert. I haven't had any luck finding small cell vendor (/w organic wax) anywhere, so I'm planning to just continue using a foundation free set up. Thanks for the links Mike & Sasha.


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