# Let's talk about viewing-windows



## PatBeek

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Again, I did a search and couldn't find a thread dedicated to just top-bar viewing-windows..................am I wrong?

I am in the process of custom building two hives for a lady and I'm using the general design of Phil Chandler over at biobees.com
for the overall hive.

I saw someone mentioned over at his forums something about locking hinges. Has anyone here used those?

Please post photos of your viewing-windows and a bit of explanation about what works good about it and what doesn't work.

I was thinking about going with this general design. Any pros or cons I should look out for? (This is not my hive)


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## odfrank

Make the window as full length as possible.


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## Colleen O.

My new hive has a window that looks similar. It is hinged on the bottom but my hinges are farther apart and I used two half turn buttons on the top. It does take up most of the side of the hive like Odfrank suggests. If I get a chance I'll add a picture tomorrow.


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## chr157y

Also, where you cut out the wood, insert a new piece the same size, glued to an additional, bigger piece of wood on the outside. This helps with insulation. I have my window attached with two hinges at the top and a slide lock on the side. I put the hinges at the top, b/c my little kiddos are often the ones peeking in. With the hinges at the top, if they forget to lock the window, the weight closes it somewhat. With the posted picture, if someone leaves the window open, the bees are fully exposed to the light.


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## Colleen O.

chr157y said:


> Also, where you cut out the wood, insert a new piece the same size, glued to an additional, bigger piece of wood on the outside. This helps with insulation.


 You could route a lip around a piece of wood too. I thought about doing this because my purchased hive has it but chose not to do it on the one I made. Instead I will put a half inch thick piece of foamboard insulation in between the glass and wood for winter, with tar paper or foil insulation covering the seam. That should give a better R value than the wood.


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## shannonswyatt

Make sure to leave room for expansion. I didn't use glass, I used 1/4 inch lexan. Glass would work better I would think, but I was worried about breaking it. It will get messy over time. I use the clasps with the bail on them. They work OK. The next one I may use the lock like you have in the picture. I've been told by the better half that the only hives allowed in the yard have to have windows in them!


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## PatBeek

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Since I live in Florida, is there really any reason to have the part of the door that extends into the window area a bit?

Notice the example I posted above. There is no raised part that fits snugly into the window opening - it just covers the outside flush.

What would be the drawback of just having it flush against the outside besides lack of insulation?


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## shannonswyatt

I have the glass (lexan for me) flush with the inside of the hive, and I don't recess the viewing window cover. I figure if it gets cold enough for me to worry about it I will cover open the door and just put a piece of insulation against the plastic.


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## Beethinking

The windows run the full length on our newest top bar hive model. It works well. 









Best,
Matt


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## shannonswyatt

Wow, looks like the whole side is window!


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## Beethinking

It is! Our customers kept asking for it, so we made it. The problem with other windows is that you can't see the bees building until they are 3-5 combs in. With a design like this you can see them from the beginning.


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## Life is Good!

No, I didn't use locking hinges, as I used what was on-hand. 
Used turnbuckles like you use for storm windows. Two at the top edge, two at the bottom edge. We like our windows!









Then, I used a piece of duct tape to make a 'strap' which allows me to get the window out. I started with a piece of ribbon, but that ripped on some of the windows within a month, so I switched to duct tape. The sticky side of the tape is stuck to the inside of the window-cover. Then the remaining chunk of tape is folded back on itself to form a 'handle' of sorts. 

My window-covers did swell in the heat. I ended up trimming just a 1/16" off all edges as I must have fit them too tightly to begin with. I had left a 1/8" gap all the way around - but that wasn't enough. Prying a window-cover off a hive full of bees is certainly exciting! I don't recommend it.....more gray hairs!


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## VeggieGardener

Cacklewack said:


> The windows run the full length on our newest top bar hive model. It works well.


That looks nice Matt, you are constantly tweaking and improving the design of your hives!


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## VeggieGardener

I prefer hinges on the bottom but also like some of the hives that I have seen where the door slides into place. The inside wall is routed so that the glass fits flush with the interior wall. I have a turnbuckle closure on one hive and a simple twist clasp on the other. During winter I place a sheet of the foil covered bubble wrap type of material in the outer depression and close the door over it.

Don't think you can go wrong with a window unless you neglect to put one in... I think it is one of the best features.


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## treeWinder

The full side glass looks nice. If you go that way make sure you use double strength glass or a Lexan type material. Especially if your ever planning on moving it; regular glass may crack as the full length box racks when you pick it up. Glass won't scratch up like the plastic when you cut loose any attached combs also. I router mine in, use bottom hinges. I buy a 4' piano hinge and just use ***** to cut them 1 1/2" long. You can make a lot of hinges out of a 4" piece.


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## chr157y

Cacklewack said:


> The windows run the full length on our newest top bar hive model. It works well.


Beautiful!!!


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## Waggle

My latest TBH has full length glass on both sides and a smaller window on one end. The side panels are held on with magnetic catches, it is mounted inside my barn and now contains a swarm that I caught last friday.


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## julysun

Reflections can be a problem, don't know how to fix that, although the top swing out door should help, mine are pull out. When full of comb and bees a strong spot light helps but mine was still full and dark. You folk sure have some nice hives!


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## crabbcatjohn

I don't make mine full length. I like the idea of them having more privacy and less light for the first 4 or 5 bars from the end where they start. Also they can seal that last area off in the winter better with them being totally surrounded by wood there. Glass will transmit cold down there if you make it full length. In my hives thats where the cluster ends up being in the winter so i like them surrounded by wood. I don't even bother in-setting the plexiglass in flush. Heck they can't tell the difference and i just nail it on the inside of the wood with the edge of thumbtacks. Works good and comes out easy. I use to put glass in my hives but it always breaks... just my humble 2 cents


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## PatBeek

why does the glass always break on yours ?


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## crabbcatjohn

The ones with the glass were older hives i first built, most of them 7-8 yrs old. Also using single strength glass... Moving them around and dropping them even gently cracks the glass. I'm pretty rough on my hives. I'm not gentle. I like to see how my designs hold up with rough use. I use all plexiglass now. Crystal clear, easy to cut and its much safer to use than glass. Problem solved and they almost never break, even shipping them.


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## Tango Yankee

Cacklewack said:


> The windows run the full length on our newest top bar hive model. It works well.
> 
> View attachment 7158
> 
> 
> Best,
> Matt


Hi, Matt!

That looks great! I showed it to Rhonda and she likes it as well. We may consider one for next year. I didn't find it on your web site, though. Will it run about the same cost as your current model, or a bit more? 

Cheers,
Tom


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## Beethinking

Tom,

It's the only one we sell now -- so the price on our site is accurate. We just haven't updated the website with photos, as we have to go to the studio to shoot photos of the hives. 

Best,


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## Tango Yankee

Cacklewack said:


> Tom,
> 
> It's the only one we sell now -- so the price on our site is accurate. We just haven't updated the website with photos, as we have to go to the studio to shoot photos of the hives.
> 
> Best,


Sweet! Thanks, Matt! I can't wait to see the updated photos.

Cheers,
Tom


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## PatBeek

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Does anyone have any suggestions about rust-proof (perhaps stainless steel) hardware for the hinges and lock/bolt device for the window cover?

I'm building twin hives for a lady who is demanding stainless hardware because she lives in St Petersburg, Florida, by the beach.

Here's my build thus far. And she wants it ALL painted white, even the roof shingles. 

The white that's on the body is only a primer coat. I still have mucho painting to do.

They will have landing boards also, underneath the main three-hole entrance.:















































*Here is what I showed her and she told me she didn't want the brass hinges or the zinc-plated locking bolt. She wants stainless. She also (because I mentioned it) wants a chain for the door to hold it better so the hinges won't take such a beating......stainless, of course...... Yes, I know I only have two hinges on this hive that needs four. It's only a mock-up for now:*


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## PatBeek

.

Just testing to see if my signature now pops up.

.


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## Stan1951

How are those hives with the entrance holes in the middle working out? I've always heard that wasn't a good idea.


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## PatBeek

Stan1951 said:


> How are those hives with the entrance holes in the middle working out? I've always heard that wasn't a good idea.


It's Phil Chandler's design over at biobees.com

The main idea behind it (which you may already know) is that the hive has two follower-boards which creates three different chambers. The main three holes are for the main middle chamber. Then on the back side are individual holes on the far sides for doing splits/raising nucs.

Supposedly it's working fine for many people. I'm not sure if the bees care where and how they enter, as long as they can enter.

But please elaborate on the issues you've been hearing about.


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## PatBeek

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Here's a big thread about it over at Phil's forums:

*Top Bar Hive Entrance in the Center or on the Side?*

http://www.biobees.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5038

.


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## shannonswyatt

I think Stan is saying that as it can possibly increase the work of the beek. If the bees run out of room going one direction and you move the other follower you will end up with the stores on both sides of the brood nest. In the winter they cannot move from one end to the other. So in the fall you have to manipulate the bars to move the brood nest on one end. The problem you can run into with that is that the bars may not fit nicely next to each other.


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## PatBeek

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Here's what Phil Chandler at biobees says about his design:



> You need to understand that the side entrances are used with two follower boards, as follows (see The Barefoot Beekeeper for full instructions).
> 
> Initially, the followers are placed either side of an introduced swarm or nucleus, with entrance holes also placed centrally, so the colony is held within the central third of the hive body. This means that they have a manageable volume within which to build their first combs, and I have found that this greatly increases the likelihood of these combs being built to follow the starter strips.
> 
> As comb building progresses, ONLY ONE follower is moved, two or three bars ahead of where the bees are building, so as to allow them to expand their colony unhindered. The space on the empty side of the non-moving follower is for use in making splits for increase or swarm prevention, if required.
> 
> The colony continues its expansion in one direction, initially placing stores above the brood, and the excess in combs beyond the brood area. As the colony contracts at the end of the season, the cluster forms close to the stored honey, and during the winter, they eat their way through their stores, comb by comb, moving away from the entrance. At no time is there any need to 'shuffle' combs. (Exceptionally, they may leave a comb of honey between the brood nest and the non-moving follower, which can be re-positioned at the far end if it is felt necessary.)
> 
> If - as is usually the case - there are empty combs either end of the colony as it approaches winter, they can be removed for melting (or stored for replacement in the same colony in the spring, if required). This enables the beekeeper easily to reduce the volume of the hive in winter, so the bees can more easily retain their heat.
> 
> Another major advantage of movable followers is that they enable the beekeeper to do a quick inspection of both ends of the colony at any time, with virtually no disturbance to the bees. You can check both stores and brood nest in a matter of seconds, without moving a single top bar, simply by sliding a follower away. Most times I do this, the bees barely notice. If I need to look a little deeper into the brood nest, for example, if I need to check for eggs or brood, then I can do so by moving only one or two top bars.
> 
> If you hold the colony against one end of the hive with a single follower - or use no followers at all - you cannot ever inspect the brood nest without moving nearly every bar in the hive!
> 
> As I said, the empty space beyond the non-moving follower can be used for making splits and for swarm control, as I provide it with another entrance on the opposite side of the hive to the main entrance.


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## shannonswyatt

Yes, I've read Phil's writtings and understand the philosophy. It sounds really good, but you limit the expansion of your hive or you set yourself up for having to re-arrange the combs if you have large hives that fill out the hive. 

You can still inspect from the one end if you use a shortened follower board that you can remove and be at the front of the brood nest. If you put your entrances on one side towards one end you can also use a follower board. 

It is what ever works best for the beek. If you like center entrances go with them.


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## Stan1951

I totally agree with Shannonswyatt. However, I'm new to this so I only know what I've read up on or been told. Les Crowder, whose book "Top Bar Beekeeping" I consider to be the Bible of Top Bar Hives, recommends side entrances but always starting the hive on one end or the other. Also Matt Reed of Bee Thinking where I bought my two hives (and have been pestering him with questions all summer) says the same thing. Matt's hives have three entrance holes across the bottom, one on each end and one in the center with three smaller ventilation holes across the top. He recommended only opening one entrance hole on whichever end I wanted to start from and leave the bottom center one for ventilation when it gets hot. The top three ventilation holes are left up to the bees to decide if they want to close them up or not. Happy BeeKeeping!


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## Stan1951

I just read Phil's philosophy and I can see his points. I'm glad I didn't read that before I got started beekeeping or I'd probably still be trying to make up my mind which way to go.


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## shannonswyatt

I have read three recent top bar books as well as Phil's stuff, and not to mention Michael Bush's stuff on his site. I'm also more aligned with Les's methods as well. I personally like the entrances towards one end on the side. It keeps them out of the rain. Wyatt Mangum puts them on the end and it works for him, but I think that his covers (metal roofing sheets) may extend enough over the end to keep dry.


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## Michael Bush

>How are those hives with the entrance holes in the middle working out? I've always heard that wasn't a good idea. 

In a mild climate (such as Phil's) entrances in the middle will work fine. In a cold climate with a break in the middle of winter somewhere, it still might work fine. But if you get a brood nest in the center, honey on both ends, and no break in the weather for the cluster to break and reorganize, the cluster can end up at one end starving with stores at the other end...


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## PatBeek

Michael Bush said:


> >How are those hives with the entrance holes in the middle working out? I've always heard that wasn't a good idea.
> 
> In a mild climate (such as Phil's) entrances in the middle will work fine. In a cold climate with a break in the middle of winter somewhere, it still might work fine. But if you get a brood nest in the center, honey on both ends, and no break in the weather for the cluster to break and reorganize, the cluster can end up at one end starving with stores at the other end...


We're in Florida, anywhere from Tampa Bay to Orlando.

I appreciate back-and-forth with the pros-and-cons very much, but I have a feeling it'll work out ok. That's the LEAST of my problems right now. The lady whom I'm building this hive for is now wanting the hinges and lock-bolt to ALL BE STAINLESS !!!!!

I'm tearing my hair out over "little" detail trying to run down parts that will fit and work properly. What I had in the photos above worked perfectly, but now the stainless piano hinge I just took out a mortgage on is a little TOO WIDE. And no, there's no large selection of sizes in stainless.............it only comes in one option - - EXPENSIVE !!!!

DYING !!!!!!! DYING !!!! DYING !!!!!

Now I have to go through the whole deal of emailing photos and receipts and all the stuff that starts adding up to EPIC FAIL with the customer.

Oh, and for the stainless lock-bolts. No, no no, Home Depot, Lowe's and Ace Hardware have NONE. I had to go to a boating store. Yes, that's right, a boating store in order to place an order for two stainless locking bolts. THIRTY BUCKS TOTAL !!!!!

I'm so mad right now I can't even see straight.


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## Michael Bush

I never understood the "Cadillac" top bar hives. Now she wants a Delorean.


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## plcnut

Patbeek,
Try McMaster Carr for your hardware. They have almost anything and they get it to you quick. 
http://www.mcmaster.com/


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## PatBeek

Michael Bush said:


> I never understood the "Cadillac" top bar hives. Now she wants a Delorean.


That's actually funny right now.

But she's concerned about rusting because they live by the beach in St. Petersburg.

She's also wants them to look nice and uniform (white) to fit in with her home and neighborhood.

I think the zinc bolt (which would be pretty much under the cover of the roof) and the brass hinges would have been fine, but she's insisting. Now I have problems all-of-a-sudden that I really don't need.


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## shannonswyatt

I've just finished up a hive to move a swarm into (assuming I need to move them before fall). I've found that I've gotten cheaper at making them, but they look better. Part of that is just learning to do woodwork and getting better tools. And as my dad says, putty and paint will make it what it aint.


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## julysun

I see these three hole entrances all the time. Three 1" inch holes is about 2.25 sq inches. On a Lang the 3/4 inch by 10 inch entry gives about 7.5 sq inches. Is my math that bad? Are the TBH folk using some info on hive ventilation not understood by Langers? Why do you drill holes, are slots that hard to cut? :lookout:


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## PatBeek

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I built a top bar based on Corwin Bell's design a few years ago that has a slot just like a Lang.

I have bees in it right now that are very happy that I cut-out a few weeks ago from under a mobile home.

Yesterday I fed them back a bunch of their own honey and I swear they all wanted to hug me.

But anyhow, I want to try Phil Chandler's design to see how well it does. Apparently it has already worked very well for a lot of folks......so we'll see.


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## shannonswyatt

What is the difference besides the entrances in the two hives?


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## PatBeek

shannonswyatt said:


> What is the difference besides the entrances in the two hives?


I guess the main difference is that Chandler's design has the two follower-boards creating 3 chambers - - main chamber in the middle and two smaller side chambers for splits/nucs and such.


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## PatBeek

.

Here's my finished product. I built two of these, but only one is in these photos:


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## shannonswyatt

I like the mouse perch!


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## PatBeek

These mean ol' Florida bees wouldn't give a mouse too much opportunity.  

But the lady requested the landing boards. I had to acquiesce.


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## PatBeek

.

Here are the close-ups of the hinges and lock-bolts I ended up using.

The lock-bolts I had to get from a boating supply company that are stainless. The hinges, thankfully, she agreed to use the brass hinges I got from Lowe's originally.

Notice the small wood block I had to place behind the latch of the lock-bolt. I had to install those because there was too much play when the bolt was locked that allowed the door to open ever-so-slightly. 

(of course I have to show a pic WITH flash and without)




















Now the whole thing so you can see the hinges:











.


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## PatBeek

.

Oooops, I'm glad I was looking at these photos closely because I just noticed I left off two mounting screws for the lock-bolt.

:scratch:


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## GloryBe_Farmstead_VA

shannonswyatt said:


> Yes, I've read Phil's writtings and understand the philosophy. It sounds really good, but you limit the expansion of your hive or you set yourself up for having to re-arrange the combs if you have large hives that fill out the hive.
> 
> You can still inspect from the one end if you use a shortened follower board that you can remove and be at the front of the brood nest. If you put your entrances on one side towards one end you can also use a follower board.
> 
> It is what ever works best for the beek. If you like center entrances go with them.


I started out building two hives exactly to Phil's plan (three center holes), and hived my first package April 2012. I did no rearranging for the winter. Even with our extended cold and wet spring this year, my bees made it through and are still going strong.

That said, many people over at Biobees are re-thinking the center entrances, so I revamped the second hive to have end entrance holes, placed so I could have one top-bar blank, then a follower board, which will allow for inspection of the brood nest without too much disruption.

One of the main reasons Phil uses central entrance holes is to make the hive more mouse proof. Since, after watching my bees coming into the hive loaded down with pollen, I also added landing boards, plus moving the entrances to the end, I had to come up with a mouse excluder.


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## shannonswyatt

Wow, that is some serious hardware holding that mouse guard in place. I would say that it is Mighty Mouse proof!


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## GloryBe_Farmstead_VA

shannonswyatt said:


> Wow, that is some serious hardware holding that mouse guard in place. I would say that it is Mighty Mouse proof!


Rather than staple the hardware cloth over the entrance (the guard bees get testy when you beat and bang on their home), I decided to use wing nuts so I could change the size of the hardware cloth or remove it completely. I under stand that I will have to use quarter-inch to exclude mice, but I used this half-inch in the early spring to keep out house wrens trying to nest in the unoccupied hives. I cut a piece of eighth-inch in case I need to close them up for some reason, but still give them ventilation. All I need to do is loosen the wing nuts and change or remove the hardware cloth. 

I am a 63-year-old, seriously disabled female, doing all my beekeeping alone. I have to do extra work up front so when I have to do something in a hurry, it will be as easy as possible, because I know that will be when my dominant hand and arm will refuse to work. I have learned a lot through mistakes made during my first 18 months at actual beekeeping. Most of all I learned that what works for Phil Chandler in Devon, England, or for Michael Bush in Nebraska, might not work for me in Virginia.


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## shannonswyatt

You would be surprised. When doing cutouts the bees hardly seem to notice when cutting through with a circular saw.


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## PatBeek

.

I just delivered the two bee hives to the customer today.

I wasn't quite expecting these bees would be living so exquisitely by the beach in St Petersburg, FL - up on a 2nd-floor balcony:


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## shannonswyatt

I volunteer to house watch!

Are the hives staying on the porch, or did you just drop them off there?


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## PatBeek

shannonswyatt said:


> I volunteer to house watch!
> 
> Are the hives staying on the porch, or did you just drop them off there?


LOL, for REAL.....what a house.

But yes, the hives are staying right there on the 2nd-floor balcony.


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## Kilted Beekeeper

PatBeek said:


> LOL, for REAL.....what a house.
> 
> But yes, the hives are staying right there on the 2nd-floor balcony.


After seeing the home, I hope you charged extra for all the custom fittings!!


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## Colleen O.

The pictures help explain the all white scheme. They blend in to the balcony. Are they keeping having bees secret from their neighbors?


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## PatBeek

Colleen O. said:


> The pictures help explain the all white scheme. They blend in to the balcony. Are they keeping having bees secret from their neighbors?


Yes, she is trying to have the stealthy approach. But as far as the neighbors, she's actually more concerned about the aesthetics rather than the bees being any type of nuisance.


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## PatBeek

Kilted Beekeeper said:


> After seeing the home, I hope you charged extra for all the custom fittings!!



You know what? They were great people and kicked-in extra than what was agreed upon.

My wife was happy about that.


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## Che Guebuddha

Michael Bush said:


> >How are those hives with the entrance holes in the middle working out? I've always heard that wasn't a good idea.
> 
> In a mild climate (such as Phil's) entrances in the middle will work fine. In a cold climate with a break in the middle of winter somewhere, it still might work fine. But if you get a brood nest in the center, honey on both ends, and no break in the weather for the cluster to break and reorganize, the cluster can end up at one end starving with stores at the other end...


Hi Michael,

as a regular member of Biobes forum I will try to post few pointers about Phil's central entrance design;

Since bees place stores on both sides of the brood nest Phil rearange the stores before winter - moving all honey comb to one side of the nest. 

That said, Phil is changing his design now to end-side-wall entrance with a periscope and a deep litter floor. 

Phil's central holes design works extremely well in our wet cold swedish climate. Down to -27 C ! 

That said my own TBHs have only one top entrance hole which is 30 mm in diameter and is placed at the end of the side wall. 
I have solid floors and windows on 2 hives only (not enough reused glass). 

So far I tested periscope and top entrance with good results; colonies overwintered an exremly long and cold last winter.


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