# Questions for Texas TBHers



## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

Hi Tim. You can absolutely start this way, but I think it might be easier to start with the same equipment your club members use. That way you can get help when you need it and it will be easier to get a nuc or hive to get started. You can do Lang hives natural and chemical free. Many of us here do just that. I do foundationless frames and no chemicals. It works well for me. Some of the TBH guys will be along shortly to help you with the TBH.


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## Tim Hall (Sep 14, 2007)

Thanks for the reply Ross. I hadn't considered the idea of going with natural comb in a Lang. I had planned on having more than one hive - there seems to be advantages to this from many accounts. So maybe I should have both a couple of Langs and a couple of TBH's (?) But then again the idea of the extra expense and having incompatible equipment kinda bothers me.


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## beenovice (Jun 19, 2007)

I started with TBH ! It is great way for novice to keep bees and starting to understand what kind of little creatures are they  

Go for it !


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## Tim Hall (Sep 14, 2007)

Thanks for the reply Beenovice. I think I will go with at least one TBH in the spring (unless someone has a compelling argument otherwise), and I may also consider a Lang or two.

I would really like to hear from anyone else in my area how successful they've been with TBH's here, and roughly what dimensions seem to be working. I'm also curious what width of top bars people are using (and perhaps with what breed of bees).


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## Ross (Apr 30, 2003)

You would do well to go read all of Michael Bush's stuff. He has done TBH and foundationless Lang.


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## Tim Hall (Sep 14, 2007)

I actually have read through most of his work (and appreciate his posting all that info very much!)...been looking at all sorts of TBH stuff for some time. The thing is the tornadoes might start in Nebraska and stop in Fort Worth, but the climate is otherwise entirely different. 

From what I've read it seems that there can be significant regional differences with how the bees respond to certain techniques and equipment. I read where one person doing one thing is has a healthy productive hive, and someone in a different place using very similar techniques is not fairing so well. I was kinda hoping someone local might chime in with any regional pointers.

But if no one has anything to offer, I'm a resourceful enough fellow I can figure things out for myself


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## DaveWilliamsTX (Aug 16, 2007)

I'm in Denton, and this is my first month with bees, and I've done it with a top bar hive. In my opinion, as a novice, top bar hives made the most sense. Less equipment, less investment, calmer bees, and a more natural hive. I am able to do casual comb inspections at my leisure, and I only disturb one comb at a time while the rest are kept in darkness. I've yet to be stung (although I'm sure its inevitable)

My bees are still hauling in pollen and nectar like crazy, I'll be sure to update when things turn south, however being in the city there are tons of yards with ornamentals in bloom almost year around.

You might try contacting TXAshurst, he is in Plano and has years of experience with both TBH's and Langs.

My .02


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## Nate W (Sep 17, 2007)

I started with a topbar this past spring and would recomend that anyone who has the desire do so also. 

My recomendations to you are to have at least 2 topbar hives that are the same design, so if one goes queenless you could insert brood from the other. you should also build a follower board to control the airspace the bees are regulating. I use the plastic one quart chick waterers from TSC to feed syrup inside the back of the hive. 

I bought my bees from the weavers because they are selecting for varroa resistance and I don't want to use chemicals. they also have excellent customer service. 

The dimensions that I used are 4ft long 12in wide bottom and 15in wide inside top. With the top bars in there is about 12in vertical space for comb. I made my top bars with angled sides and about a 3/8" flat on the bottom to suggest where the bees should build. I painted the top surface of the top bars white to minimize heat buildup with the roof off. the roof is pitched with a dead air space inside. the hive looks like a birdhouse from the front. This setup has worked well for me so far I have had very little comb attachment to the sides and no wandering off the bars. you can make yours as simple or complicated as you want and interfere with the bees as much or little as you like. the bees will make just about anything work.


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## Tim Hall (Sep 14, 2007)

Dave, Nate, thanks for the posts...all points noted. In the spirit of DIY sharing this is the design I'm putting together...it still needs some adjustments, and if anyone's curious I'll post dimensions and materials later:


















Nate, yours seems to have only a slightly larger cross section than mine. I'll also use a follower board. Don't know if the screened bottom is terribly useful or not(?) Hopefully I'll have time to put together at least two over the winter.


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## beenovice (Jun 19, 2007)

Tim Hall said:


> Dave, Nate, thanks for the posts...all points noted. In the spirit of DIY sharing this is the design I'm putting together...it still needs some adjustments, and if anyone's curious I'll post dimensions and materials later:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looking good ! Can't wait to see what dimensions you came up with ...


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## TX Ashurst (May 31, 2005)

Dave Williams may have overstated my experience. I have lots of years where I wasn't doing anything with bees, and I've never attempted to keep enough bees to make a profit. Still, I have been around, and interested in bees most of my life. When I started keeping bees this last time (starting about 4 years ago) I was intrigued by TBHs, so that's what I built. I also saw a web site where some fellows in So. Africa were putting a dowel frame together. So I built my TBH with vertical sides, 20" wide and 4'8" long. I've decided the top bars are too long, so I am in the process of cutting them back to Langstroth length. The dowels are in the ends of the bars, so they hang a beespace away from the side of the box. This gives the comb good support without me worrying about cutting away attachments to the side of the hive. They still attach them ocasionally, but they're easy to cut away and the bees aren't motivated to re-attach after I trim the wax off.

So that's what I do. I am of the opinion that the hive style is a non-issue in warm climates. What is important is ventilation, access to lots of water, and of course plenty of food for the bees. This winter I am building Langstroth boxes that will hold my top bars with dowels. I'm trying that concept to satisfy myself on whether they induce the bees to gather more honey, but I am also building another top bar hive that's not quite so wide. That is because I seem to get curving comb as the bees fill out a bar. They start straight, continue straight most of the way, but then curve it at the very back.

Dave Williams gave me $10 for a little colony of bees that had moved into a birdhouse and were so packed I couldn't smoke them all inside to move them to my place. We put them in a sloped-side TBH and they are doing very, very well.
I put 2 frames of bees and eggs and brood into the end of my big TBH last spring and used a divider bar to keep them separate from the mother hive so they could raise a queen. They have also done very, very well. 
I collected several swarms this year in Langstroth boxes and they have also done very well.
That's why I don't think the hive style matters much, especially compared to issues like management, location, and nectar sources.

I notice that you are planning on putting a support stick down the center of your top bars. I saw that being done quite a while back, but I've never heard anything about how well it works. I suspect it will be fine, but I don't think it needs to be as wide as the top bar (after all, I use dowels - anything from 1/4" up to 1/2"). Any old stick will do.

I agree with the poster who suggested R. Weaver for package bees. I started my TBHs with two packages and both did OK, although as always there was one that did much better than the other. That is typical of bees, and not a reflection of the hive.
I have also collected some fine bees via swarms, cutouts, and cone trapping. I haven't yet encountered AHBs on this side of the Trinity, but I know they are around. I hear rumors that your side of the river has more than we do, so you might not be able to collect as many feral colonies. In any case, if you work with any bees of unknown ancestry, or if you have supercedure in your hives (which you will, sooner or later) you have the possibility of working with AHB and you need a GOOD bee suit at that time. I've gotten along for a while with wearing extra layers under my old Sunday white shirt, but I've also gotten stung quite a bit. Even gentle bees will sting the dickens out of you as you do a cut-out from a confined space. For my own bees, after I get to know them, I am comfortable wearing a T-shirt, shorts, and a tie-down veil. But I am ordering a Golden Bee full suit.

You will get a very good nectar flow in the spring in No. Texas, from a variety of flowers. It makes marvelous honey! Most summers dry everything up and the bees will do well to feed themselves. You can extend the season by putting your hives in an area with mesquite trees, or planted crops (but watch out for pesticides applied to row crops) in the summer. Then, in the fall the bees can usually put away some strong-flavored honey. Last year my fall honey was so thick you could force a stick into it and eat it like a lollypop. It would not flow at all and I refuse to heat my honey, so I let the bees keep it.
In Plano, you can keep 2 hives in your yard, at least 15 feet from your property lines, if you don't let them become a nuisance. Mine are blocked from view in all directions. Although I didn't actually "hide" them, it makes for good neighbors that they don't notice them. There is usually something in bloom in urban areas, so I get a good honey crop from my two (more if I happened to acquire a colony or swarm and haven't moved them out to the farm, yet.) home hives. They are by far the easiest to manage because they are the closest. I also enjoy spending an hour of an evening just sitting and watching them.


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## Tim Hall (Sep 14, 2007)

Tx Ashurst,

Thanks for all the info. I figured summer was probably a tough time around here since it seems like most things just go brown in July/August...at least when we're not having record flooding. I'm really glad you mentioned the mesquite trees, because I've heard mesquite honey is really good and I'd had the thought to find a bit of land that's been overrun with mesquites (and as you know we have plenty around here). 

Like I said I never really paid any attention to the sequence of blooms and stuff, and I wasn't sure when and how long the mesquite bloomed. From what I've been reading it seems they stay in bloom from spring through about mid summer. Does that sound right? Sounds like an awfully long blooming season.

You know I've also been reading in places where some beekeepers are just getting used to the idea of AHB's, and maybe they're becoming more acceptable for use (at least in rural areas)(?) I know Texas has lifted the county-by-county quarantines, but I wasn't sure if there was some outright regulation against them.

Anyway I have no intention of trying to mess with AHB's right off, and certainly not if I keep any bees on my city lot. I have already checked, and Fort Worth doesn't seem to have any ordinances specific to bees. But there is a nuisance ordinance, which I'm sure bees _could_ fall under. 

Thanks again for all the info. I'll definitely consider R. Weaver for package bees. Will post dimensions soon...still wavering on investing in Langs.


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## Tim Hall (Sep 14, 2007)

Ok, I’m going to try and revive my old thread here...hope some of you might be able to answer a few more questions for me. I’ve talked with a local beekeeper who seems to be well respected, and she’s going to get some 5-bar nucs started for me if I supply the equipment. She’s offering this for the same price as a package of bees from Weaver...I figure productive bees with comb and brood is a much better deal!

Anyway, I’m trying to finalize a design for a nuc. Need to get them built and delivered to her in the next month or so. Any comments/suggestions are welcome. I know I haven’t drawn in an entrance...that’s yet to be determined. 

Some specific questions: A) should I use the spacer as shown so I have two bee-space widths at the ends, or is one width sufficient? B) How much wiggle room should I add to allow for bar expansion from heat/humidity? C) I see that Nate is doing fine with 12” deep comb, and he’s much further south than me. Does anyone think comb that deep is going to be a problem in the Texas heat?

Thanks for any help here. Can't wait for spring 

http://www.timstudio.com/images/Nucleus.jpg
http://www.timstudio.com/images/Nucleus Section.jpg


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## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

Howdy Tim,

All my top bar hives are 12 inches deep also. Here in Honduras’ heat I usually don’t have a problem with combs dropping. It’s only once in a while that I find one that has comb that dropped off the top bar. It’s usually new comb full of honey and not brood, so it was heavy. And then I’m not entirely sure if it was always the heat or something I did. There are no problems with combs in the hives that remain in some shade all day long.

What I do see more frequently is a bit a bridge comb between the top part of the comb itself and the side of the box. But it is usually only an inch or so and is easy enough to cut through inorder to remove the comb. And it gives a bit of extra support for those heavy honey combs. Brood combs usually don’t have any bridge comb.

New combs this size do get heavy when full of honey so you will need to handle them carefully. 

Good luck.

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Tom


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## Tim Hall (Sep 14, 2007)

Tom,

Thanks for the reply. I'm sure Honduras stays pretty warm. My concern is I plan to keep my hives in full sun...the consensus among local beekeepers is that it seems to curb the SHB problem we have a bit. I guess I'm still waivering on the depth of the comb. 105F (40C) in full sun is hot, and that's not an unreasonable August scenario here. Maybe this won't be a problem with a sheet-metal roof and fanning bees(?)

With regard to the spacer(s) for proper beespace at the ends, I decided to put a 3/16" cleat at each end of the hive body. 

I still need to figure out how much extra length to give to the body to account for bar expansion so they don't get stuck in there. This is a little different than a full-size hive with a follower board, because I want only 5 bars to fit in it fairly snug. Any ideas?


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## Tomas (Jun 10, 2005)

*tbh nuc boxes*

Tim,

Here are some photos I took this morning of my nuc/mating boxes. I made a dozen of these with materials I had on hand—scrap wood and pieces of tin from some big vegetable oil cans. These are made to hold five combs. 










All my top bars set right on top of the box. I don’t have the end pieces sticking up. This way I don’t worry about the bars not fitting because they expanded with humidity or have a bit of propolis built up on them. When I’m done working with the hive I just tighten everything together and that’s it. 

The two end bars can be nailed on to hold all the bars tight together, such as when I’m transporting them. At least one is usually always kept nailed on so I can tighten all the other bars up against it. The bit of overlap the end bars have is what would be my “bee space”. I don´t get too specific with how much it is—somewhere between the 3/16 and 1/2 inch, depending on the thickness of the side piece. More than anything it’s there so I can get that end comb in or out without rubbing it against the side of the box.










I reduced the entrance using a bit of plastic piping and a piece of sponge. The entrance is about four inches long if I open it all the way up.

The width of the box is the same as seven top bars. The internal measurments are 17 inches at the top, 7 ½ inches at the bottom and 12 inches deep—the same as the big permanent boxes I use.

I have a removable bottom board on these—just a piece of cardboard covered with plastic (so the bees don’t chew it up) and held on with two cleats. It’s something simple, inexpensive and lightweight. The idea is to be able to use the newspaper method to combine these with a queenless hive, so I want to be able to open up the bottom easily. With the africanized bees you should have more success combing the whole nuc rather than just introducing a new queen.










My trap hives use the same basic design except for being big enough to hold about nine combs and having a fixed bottom. Here is a link to a thread from a while back that has some photos of those. Sometimes I use these boxes to make splits.

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214228

As far as the heat in Texas, maybe consider adding a screened bottom on the permanent boxes for the hives. That might help the bees to keep the hives cooler. The box in the last photo I posted in the thread above has a screen covering about two-thirds of the bottom. That bit of extra light that enters might also help to deter the shb (as well as help with varroa).

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Tom


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## Tim Hall (Sep 14, 2007)

Very cool. Thanks for all the information. That gives me some good ideas.


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