# Local club's attitude is a little discouraging



## g1nko (Jun 16, 2016)

My wife and I are getting our first bees this spring. I built a Cathedral Hive from plans from BackyardHive.com. I chose the design based on the advantages top bars offer in controlling mites, general consensus that bees in a TBH are calmer, and the fact this is primarily going to be my wife's hobby and she didn't want to have to lift fully loaded Langstroth boxes.

We joined our local club and are taking a 4-part intro class. The negativity, rudeness, and hostility from club members when I mentioned I'd built a TBH were unbelievable. "Why would you want to go back 150 years in history?" "Bees go up, they don't go sideways. You're going to lose your bees." "Top bar hives are designed to fail. Why would you do that?" 

I learned a lot about nectar flow cycles in New England, where we're located, so we're continuing with the classes, but the interaction with club members left a sour taste. This wasn't the first time, either. We had an encounter with a commercial beekeeper in Rhinebeck back in September who spent 20 minutes bad-mouthing TBHs and trying to convince us to go Langstroth. 

Is this a common story?


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

ginko
People like what they understand and have had success with. They have learned how the bees act in what they have and there is something to the fact that most bees are kept in lang hives. This is probly for a good reason. It doesn't make you wrong to want to do something differrent and you will reap the good or bad of that. I would not write the club members off as there will be lots you don't know that they do know that can help you. In the end, you may help them also. I would go into it early by just doing what you want and taking the high road even if they are not. I have a feeling that you will end up with some good friends later when the bumps are smoothed out. Just because they don't agree does not mean they don't have things that will help you and you may come around to their way of thinking or you may really love what you are doing and you may enlighten them. In the end, my view, most will win with a little diversity in the group. I know most that know me think that I have a differrent beat to my drum. I know that many times I have found I look down on things that I am not interested in to find that later in life my interest change.
Hold your chin up, aproch the club with the attitude that you want to help when you can, and you will be happier and they will probly be happier when all is said and done.
You still get to do what you want no matter what anyone thinks.
Cheers
gww


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

I don't tell anyone at the association on what I am doing. I am in "listen" mode when at the meets. I promised myself that I will be in listen mode for few years before I open my mouth. Who knows, I may realize by then that the "standard" way is better.

Dont get me wrong. I like the folks at the meetings, they gave me free swarm last year, they bring free food .


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## rv10flyer (Feb 25, 2015)

I would recommend to any new beekeepers to attend a bee school and join a club the year prior, volunteer to help a few beeks in May-June, get a couple of books to read over winter and THEN procure your hive of choice with a little more knowledge and experience. Try both and see which one you like better. I know nothing about TBH, but would not purchase or build one until I volunteered to help a TBH beek, just to see all of the advantages and disadvantages. Yes, bee clubs have their issues, go long enough to spread your wings yourself. Good luck and do not let your guard down with mites.


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## Marcin (Jun 15, 2011)

g1nko said:


> Is this a common story?


Yes.
We all have opinions on how things should be done, don't be discouraged by them. Keep the bees alive and be successful with your beekeeping and you'll change opinions by example.



> I chose the design based on the advantages top bars offer in controlling mites, general consensus that bees in a TBH are calmer


Do you mind sharing where you got that info from? I keep langstroths but have friends who keep bees in tbh and warre's and I don't see what you described. 

It's important to remember that beekeeping is not about the design of the hive, it's about your management of that hive's occupants.


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## jwcarlson (Feb 14, 2014)

Having started with TBH and gone to Langs, I can see why some of those people have that attitude. But it's 1) your choice and 2) all in what you want to get out of it. I can confirm that my TBH bees were more calm than what I keep in Langs. I used to think it was because of the way the hive opens up, and there might be a little bit to that. But I'm now more convinced that the TBHs were miniature compared to the 3-deep+7-medium towers I've been accustomed to the last couple of years with Langstroth boxes. But that kind of beekeeping isn't for everybody. I found TBHs to have just as much problem with mites as my Langs do. And I found them to be little swarm factories. There's no way I could keep 25-30 colonies in TBHs without issuing way way more swarms that I'd be comfortable with. I had a few overwintered ones swarm 5-8 times in a year, no joke. I cut them over into Langs and magically that problem went away.

I'd simply ask them if they've tried them in order to form that opinion.

What I find more discouraging in a bee club is when the leader or an outspoken person tells new or not-yet-started beekeepers something like "you're going to loose all your bees for the first few years, so be ready for that."

That's hogwash.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

My response to people like that is "Just because I can't drive a tractor threw it doesn't mean I won't plant a small kitchen garden"

Sadly the people you are dealing with are really no worse then the folks who drink the "alternative hives" koolade.. Sun Hives , KTBH, Warre etc for some people belief in hive type can throw as much vitro as polticks or religen 

Bees will do just fine in an exclosure of suitable R- factor and volume, anyting else if for the beekeeper, but there are lots of people making money convincing folks they "need" this or that... "backyard hive" selling KTBH for more then langs is a prime example.... to me any way the primary advantage of the KTBH is cost, I can bang mine together for $25 or so out of ruff sawn. 



> "I chose the design based on the advantages top bars offer in controlling mites"


 I have never heard that, do you have a link to a study? to be honest it sounds like more koolade.


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## rv10flyer (Feb 25, 2015)

jwcarlson said:


> What I find more discouraging in a bee club is when the leader or an outspoken person tells new or not-yet-started beekeepers something like "you're going to loose all your bees for the first few years, so be ready for that."
> 
> That's hogwash.


Maybe not ALL of your bees, just 40-75%, and worse if you start on your own without experience, with Georgia packages full of shb's and no beetle blaster traps, nucs with low population/no queen or a poorly-laying one sold by an "experienced" club member, and on top of all of that try to be treatment-free. Been there, had plenty of dead bees and slimed comb.


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## Riverderwent (May 23, 2013)

gww said:


> I know that many times I have found I look down on things that I am not interested in to find that later in life my interest change.


True that. I like to think that I'm becoming wiser, and not just more informed. When I was young, I didn't think much about cut flowers except that they were frivolous. Now I want to grow them. I used to throw away old tube radios. Not long ago I picked one up off the curb, and I sit and drink tea and listen to it. I'm planning to replace the capacitors in it. Maybe it's just that different things make me happy. 

But, G1nko, you built a cool hive. Make a cup of tea, pull up an aluminum web chair and sit and look at the bees coming in and out of your hive. Why do you want to keep bees and what are your plans? Oh, I probably would not want someone to tell me how I should want to keep bees and I would not want to judge all members of a group of beekeepers based on the remarks of other members, and I kind of hope I wouldn't dislike someone just because they had some ill advised thoughts about keeping bees.


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## Lburou (May 13, 2012)

Tell them you plan to go to the Langstroth hive after a couple years experience.


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

Clubs differ in their attitudes, just like people! I love TBHs, but I have learned how to manage them and they work for me! They are not a silver bullet for anything, Yes they are typically calmer to work, but that is pretty relative. They are definitely easier on your back, but as far as mites go, you are buying into the hype on that one. 
Last summer I was babysitting a lang that had overwintered, I turned that into two full hives, and two nucs by winter. I just do not care for langs, or working them, so I did not work them as much! It is harder to force yourself to do something that you do not want to do. So if TBHs work for how you want to manage hives, then they will be fine. If Langs match how you want to manage hives, you will do fine with them!
I also had to lift one deep box, the 4th one, full of honey! Will never do that again in my life!!! 
This summer I am going to run two lang hives that are all 8 frame mediums, mainly for pollen trapping. That style of hive was easier to use to meet that goal of mine. Do not knock any style of hive till you have tried it! LOL


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## crofter (May 5, 2011)

I have talked to quite a few people about to venture into beekeeping and find that there is often a component of thinking that they see a better way which the "old set in their ways beekeepers" have failed to observe. 

As other posters have suggested, I think a new person would find more basic essential beekeeping knowledge passed on if they downplay their personal assessments and projections rather than plunking them down and having to defend them with their still shallow base of beekeeping knowledge.


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## DaisyNJ (Aug 3, 2015)

Another way to look at is: Think of your teenage years. Tell me you didnt think your parents were just busting your b**ls and they were old f*rts. I know I did. They were, at times, upset and didnt understand why I was bent on making same mistakes. But looking back, I know they were right more times than they were wrong. 

New thoughts, new ways do bring improvements, but take it slow, listen more than talk and you will be just fine.


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## g1nko (Jun 16, 2016)

> Do you mind sharing where you got that info from?


There were a few places I read about cell size and natural control of mites, one of which was right here on Bee Source: 

http://beesource.com/point-of-view/dee-lusby/historical-data-on-the-influence-of-cell-size/effects-of-comb-cell-diameter-on-parasitic-mite-infestations-in-honey-bee-colonies/

I'm not looking at a TBH as a magical panacea, but the study's conclusions make sense and aren't overreaching: "The results suggest that cell diameter could be a useful varroa management tool when used as part of an integrated pest management system." 



> Why do you want to keep bees and what are your plans?


It'd be nice to get a little honey, make some mead; Mrs. g1nko really want to keep bees; I'm along for the ride, but happily so. Making the hive was fun for me. I'm a little apprehensive about the bees, but I'm hoping I'll get over that with more familiarity.



> I would recommend to any new beekeepers to attend a bee school and join a club the year prior, volunteer to help a few beeks in May-June, get a couple of books to read over winter


We did all that. We helped a local beekeeper last year install a package and did some follow-up. We joined the local club. We've got Homegrown Honey Bees (Morrison), The Beekeeper's Handbook (Sammataro and Avitabile), and the club gave us The Backyard Beekeeper (Flottum). In addition, we got the Top Bar DVD from BackyardHive.com as well as all the YouTube videos you care to watch.


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## Hoot Owl Lane Bees (Feb 24, 2012)

g1nko

I do a lot of cut outs in buildings and have not had 1 that built up like lang hives.
They are all attached to the ceiling and use what space is available.
That said I have all lang style hives but have several friends who have TBH's.
They will work with what space they are given.
(Gas tank, 55 gal. drum ???)
Just have fun learning from your bee's


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## Delta 21 (Mar 4, 2016)

crofter said:


> ...a new person would find more basic essential beekeeping knowledge passed on if they downplay their personal assessments and projections rather than plunking them down and having to defend them with their still shallow base of beekeeping knowledge.


Shame on me for missing last weekends bee meeting.

Starting out on top bars was hard enough. It was clear from the beginning that there was plenty of different ways to do it, each requiring its own specific management. I read up for over 2 years before I even got any bees and that knowledge was expended in less than 3 months after I got them. I was not prepared for the comb manipulation, robbing, cross-combing with 4 top bars locked together in mid july with melting-colapsing comb , dead bees and smashed comb and honey everywhere, AND mites! I think the top bar learning curve is a bit steeper (but I am biased) than langs with more frequent manipulation required to be successful and foundation-less combs. 

I try to talk about only the bees and how to help them the best way I can. Not my hives because of the way some lang folks react, unless I can tell that some genuine interest is being shown about top bars, or they realize the management is different between the two. I built all 3 of my hives from the Golden Mean plans only made them all longer. I am hoping they are not swarm generators and am modifying my management to curtail this.

That whole wax comb from thin air thing never fails to amaze me, and it doesnt bother me that the neighbors think my house is different from theirs or that they drive the same looking car as everyone else in town (except me).


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

g1nko said:


> There were a few places I read about cell size and natural control of mites


yes, but those studies were done in Langs not KTBHs, Its how the box is managed, not the type of box.


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## fieldsofnaturalhoney (Feb 29, 2012)

"You're going to lose your bees." "Top bar hives are designed to fail. Why would you do that?" 

Could you have imagined if you would have told them your treatment plan? Probably, a story more common than not. Do what works for you and your wife, and hopefully you will find someone in the group with similar interest & management.


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## Hops Brewster (Jun 17, 2014)

While it's true that bees tend to prefer to move vertically, they can also adapt to moving horizontally. It is also true that top bar type hives have been in use for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and can work. Natural beehives are usually in vertical cavities, but I have seen a couple in horizontal cavities in the wild. Whether you choose vertical or horizontal, there will be a steep learning curve and a high risk of losing your 1st colonies, and you would do well to get as much practical learning and experience with bees as possible before committing to either.

When I went to my 1st and only bee club meeting, I soon learned that it was merely a front for a sales pitch to take classes from a pro beek. No one was willing to answer my questions with any answer other than "take the ($300) class, and all your questions will be answered". Ain't been back since.


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

> I built a Cathedral Hive from plans from BackyardHive.com. I chose the design


Now that you have some feedback from the local club members re read the home page of the website you list and reexamine some the statements made there. For instance:
"focus on improving bee ecology and beekeeping methods that respect the honeybee"
"eventually be backyard beekeepers worldwide that will help bring back the feral bee population and improve the genetic diversity of the honeybees"
"being a part of the solution"
"bee guardianship method of beekeeping"
"relative simplicity of working with the top bar hive"
"the new brand of beekeeper"
.......and this is but a small sample of comments on the home page. 

Just a hive? feel good sales pitch? superiority? accurate? snake oil?

What do you think?


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## g1nko (Jun 16, 2016)

clyderoad said:


> Now that you have some feedback from the local club members re read the home page of the website you list and reexamine some the statements made there.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Just a hive? feel good sales pitch? superiority? accurate? snake oil?


Your point being what? You feel the feedback from the local club members was valid and this is just so much hippie kumbaya "snake oil?"


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

g1nko said:


> Your point being what? You feel the feedback from the local club members was valid and this is just so much hippie kumbaya "snake oil?"


Take a deep breath! For starters, if you are going to be different, you have to have a little thicker skin! LOL 
Beekeeping has a pretty steep learning curve, TBHs just add to that curve. Learn to take in what everyone has to say, good or bad. Analyze that to see how and if it might help you, you will go a lot further that way.
I for one am glad that I started with TBHs and would never do it any other way, but they are not for everyone! I was forced to learn a whole lot of stuff, much faster than the people around me who were also starting. There were no easy answers, there was no off the shelf equipment to buy, there was no one else in my club with them. I am now very good at manipulating foundationless comb, but I can tell you some funny, and some interesting stories about that learning curve!


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## clyderoad (Jun 10, 2012)

> Your point being what? You feel the feedback from the local club members was valid and this is just so much hippie kumbaya "snake oil?"


My point is analyze the statements on the homepage of the site and consider the feedback you received at the meeting. Contemplate both.

It doesn't matter how I feel.


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

Last summer we had a club member speak who started off stating as fact so many things that were obviously his opinion, and i did not withhold my disagreement with his statements, even though i follow the treat Langstroth hives methods, but he left no room for variance. 

Our club is very diverse, and i make sure everyone has a voice with their questions and concerns. Maybe your club needs a better Sergeant at Arms....


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## enjambres (Jun 30, 2013)

I don't think it's a lot of "hippie kumbaya snake oil." I think it's very effective, deliberately used, marketing.

Lots of people start beekeeping because they (incorrectly) think that something they do will somehow "save the bees." The problem is that the bees don't really need saving.

There is lots of $$$ to be made keeping the general public and beginning beekeepers confused on this point.

Bees are very valuable livestock (intrinsically valuable to their keepers and _of value_ to human society at large). And they are also tough as nails. They have to be because they must survive all the things we ask of them and put them through.

You can keep bees in all kinds of situations, and they will often do quite well in spite of that. 

But there is no magic bullet design of a hive that solves all the bees' issues. No type of hive is "kinder" to the bees. Or even easier to work. (I, for instance, find 10-frame deep boxes the simplest to use and I am a small woman, well into my sixties.)

And no one particular hive style is proved to reduce mites. If there was, believe me, we'd all be using it. Foundationless or small cells can easily be run in Lang equipment. That is not unique to TBH. And again, if that was truly effective at reducing mites, we'd all be doing exactly that.

Comments by your fellow club members may have been tactlessly offered, but they were probably well-meant, in general. Starting out in non-standard equipment will likely make your first bee-year a bit harder, but not insurmountable if you are determined to go that route.

But what will be very hard to overcome is the idea that other, more experienced, beekeepers are somehow clueless and deliberately ignoring solutions that you, a beginner, can easily see. If you believe that, you may be cutting yourself off from the fountain of hard-won knowledge that most beekeepers are eager to share with new beeks.

I hope your bees give you as much pleasure as mine have given me, which is a great deal.

Enj.


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

> this is just so much hippie kumbaya "snake oil?"


As someone with 6 KTBHs (atm...we shall see come april)
Yes,
call it slick marketing if you will... I prefer snake oil, They are selling KTBHs for more then a Lang set up goes for, that should tell you everything you need to know. 

KTBHs are fine and have proven themselves, but they aren't magic/natural/whatever people claim..... they also don't have a lot of problems people who have never used them claim they have...
They are a box, they have advantages and disadvantages, the main advantage is you can build them yourself cheaply/easily with a minimum amount of tools/skills with ruff materials. Almost every other advantage you could get out of a long lang

I will say I think the biggest issue with KTBHs is tob bar length, every one seems to want to copy the lang length, when I switched to hardson pattern hives with a shorter bar, I had much less issues with X-comb



> But what will be very hard to overcome is the idea that other, more experienced, beekeepers are somehow clueless and deliberately ignoring solutions that you, a beginner, can easily see. If you believe that, you may be cutting yourself off from the fountain of hard-won knowledge that most beekeepers are eager to share with new beeks.


there is so much truth to this, this is most alt-hive promoters marketing plan.
the flip side is many old crustys thought MP was full of crap and there was no way a nuc could over winter in the north, it was just too small....lol

Be proud of what you built and enjoy your bees, but keep in mind with such an experimentally hive as your cathedral, good management advice is going to be hard to come by. Ie in your area how many bars of stores does this hive need?


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## ruthiesbees (Aug 27, 2013)

I ran into a lot of resistance when I started beekeeping in a TBH a few years back. Their no lifting, long observation window appealed to me and I was not able to lift Langs. I joined 2 clubs and one of the club presidents derided my choice while "welcoming me" into the club. Basically the old goats don't know how to react to the different types. Over 75% of the membership back then was men over 55. Both clubs have changed quite a bit to include more women, and younger people too.

I managed to bring Christy Hemenway to speak on TBH's at the garden center where I work and invited any of the 5 bee clubs in the area to "host" the event. Not a one of them took me up on it, so I did it alone with the garden center. After the event, several ladies said I should start a topbar hive group for those in the area that wanted help keeping one. They all agreed the local clubs spoke poorly about them, even though very few knew anything about their actual operation.

So I started a group that meets monthly at the garden center. Not a club with officers/dues/etc, but just a group of people and we only talk about TBH management. I don't bring in special speaker, it's just me lecturing each time and we have an hour for question and answer. Our local woodenware guy is finally carrying the TBH kit from Beeline and agrees there is a place in beekeeping for this hive. So after 4 years, I am finally making some in-roads in changing perception, but I think without the support of the garden center and their massive email list, I wouldn't be as far along as we are today.

With so few people writing books/blogs about the TBH, the critics tend to nit-pick on the authors statements or beliefs and apply it to every TBH keeper. It's not fair, but it's what happens (and in more than just beekeeping).

G1nko, keep plugging along and stay positive. You may have a difficult time finding a mentor in your area, but those of us on Beesource are always happy to help. There are a couple of good FB groups as well that are specific to TBH management.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

I run stuff by the guy I bought a hive from. He has been keeping bees for twenty years and I am first year. He might be nicer then those in your club. I see him roll his eyes at some of my questions and sometimes he will make a comment of what he likes. In the end I think he figures he will throw it out there and I can listen or not and then I can do what I decide to do and pay the price for my decision. 

I do not listen to him and very seldom do I argue and tell him I am not going to listen. See, I feel like he does and figure it is me that will pay the price and so I do what I want. I don't rub in his face that I am not going to listen to his advice. I treasure his advice cause I am quite sure he knows much more then I do over all. I don't want to rub it in his face when I don't listen because I don't want him not to offer his advice because he figures I won't listen anyway. I try my best to treat him right and also try not to abuse his good will and have him over everytime I inspect my hives. I don't want him to see me not follow his advice too many times and he would be managing my hives and not me if I had him over every time.

I don't not listen to him because I think I am smarter then him (cause on bees I am not) but more because I am the one that has to do it and pay the price when I get it wrong. Also my motivations may be differrent for having bees then his are. He has shown me things on the comb and in the hive that I can not see untill he points it out and sometime even after seeing it once I still can not see it without him pointing it out.

I believe that I have to fight from being a user and have to work to make a relationship a mutual bennifit for both of us. I do have a selfish streak and so do have to work at keeping it even.

You should keep bees for a couple of years before believing anything strongly enough to argue about it. Then you are working from a position of proof and not just ideals. 

I say this as a guy that does try his ideals out even if it kills me. I like to know I am right when I do get in a knockdown drag out and even then try to decide if winning is worth what also would be lost.

Go to the meetings, try and be helpful where you can and my belief is you will probly gain more then you lose and if done this way you will have years of a mutual relationship. You are welcome to stay on your high horse and may not be able to control some one else who wants to be on their high horse but my beliefe is most people if approched properly really do want to help.

In the end, nobody can say for you why you want to keep bees and how and so that issue is settled untill you change your mind. There are lots of bee things to learn other then what box they are in and those guys at the club can probly help or at least have shared experiances.

Make sure you take quite a bit of abuse before you write off the other side.
Cheers

Ps Sometimes I do start arguements just to see the out come, I do this sometime with out even having firm beliefs in what I am arguing about. When I do this ist is to help me form more firm beliefs by listening to the arguement.
gww


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## rookie2531 (Jul 28, 2014)

If you're the only one doing topbar and you are successful at it next spring, you can share your success. Successful and enjoy it. Share your kumbayia and maybe you can recruit more of the same and have your own section in the back corner, of course 

But, seriously I will probably some day give a tbh a try, but for now, making too much money with the lang style.

Just thought also, they make long Lang's, if weight is your concern.


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## tsmullins (Feb 17, 2011)

g1nko said:


> Is this a common story?


Yes,

Once the members of one particular club found out that I was TF and foundationless, I was shunned like a heretic.

Shane


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## trishbookworm (Jun 25, 2016)

It's become a running joke that I have top bars and my bees are going to die.... not a public ridicule thing, just a "probably shouldn't do that" thing. It's coming from very experienced beekeepers who are successful by almost any measure you use, who are up on what's what with varroa and such, one of whom is a county inspector, another (hearsay) who's an author of a backyard beekeeping book...

So I disregard their caution at my own risk. And the perspective from this club is 3/4s if it ain't broke, don't fix it, and 1/4 I couldn't make it work so you shouldn't be able to.  for a few. But I find many many nuggets of gold and never hostility (or I'd be long gone). 

I also go to the next-county-over's group - very different feel! Still have their strong preferences. But that's something to try too. 

And kudos to those who are open and just kept plugging and sharing and became a resource for others.... that's how ya do it! 

Good luck with your hive, have fun!


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## btt221 (Apr 7, 2016)

g1nko said:


> Is this a common story?


Yes, but you made a good choice going top bar hive. Some here are saying top bar hives are more difficult for beginners to manage than Langstroths hives. I disagree. 

Ginko, if you want to know if beekeepers on Beesource will be willing to help you the answer is yes.

Welcome.


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## dudelt (Mar 18, 2013)

Pay no attention to the uninformed beeks at the club. I am fortunate that I live in the radical hippie west town of Seattle. Our local club actually gives classes on top bar hive management as well as Warre hive classes. Top bar hives are fun and can be very productive. I have both Langs and top bar hives and don't want to give up either.


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## Delta Bay (Dec 4, 2009)

g1nko said:


> My wife and I are getting our first bees this spring.


Doesn't sound like a very nice club to hang out with. I've never had issues with my club in regards to having tbh's and that's been more than 10 years. Your wife and yourself are new to beekeeping and as all newbe's find out, there is a big learning curve no matter what hive type they choose. Once you get about three years of keeping bees under yours belts you should begin to have a pretty good idea what bees are all about. This will really depend on you guy's as to how much time effort, investigating and learning you're willing to put into the whole thing. As far as the hive is concern the bees will do just fine in it if you understand how best to care for the bees. A good club should be helpful in that department.


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## Nordak (Jun 17, 2016)

Take the extractor out of the equation and you don't really see a huge difference between any hive in advantages/disadvantages. If you're willing to manage intensely during flows, you can accomplish the same goal with a TBH as you can a lang. Cost was a big reason I decided TBHs. Having now owned both, I'm glad I started TBHs. I prefer them. It fits my style of beekeeping better. 

I'd recommend once you try the TBH for awhile to try a lang and see which you prefer. You very well may come to the conclusion you actually prefer lang equipment. Keep an open mind where others can not.


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## Tortuga (Dec 17, 2014)

I had fun with my beek club when they said anything my lang was bad.. I told them I was going to keep bees in an owl box and a shop vac.. since thats where I found them surviving just fine.. even though there in langs now I didnt let the club know that.. lol


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

Bennifits of a bee club that you might not be thinking of and that have nothing to do with what box you have yours in. One guy will bring cheep sugar if ask for ten bucks a 5 gal bucket. One guy has an extractor. One guy mentions that the feed store is willing to put some honey on its shelf. On guy knows a guy that is down sizing and selling hives of 5 medium high for $250 a hive and leaving the honey in the hive cause he wants more time to go fishing. You do have to buy $1400 worth of hives though. One guy is trading foundation for the propolus you are scraping off your hives. One guy bought a hundred pounds of yellow clover seed and says this is the time to broadcast it but he doesn't need the whole 100 lbs and so sells it for what he paid for it in small poundage to those others who also don't need a 100 lbs.
They had a drawing and I won a years subscription of the american bee journal. 

I have only went to four meetings because I am senile and don't remember and also a bit anti social. I aint stupid though and know that it is a good deal and when I am lazy, it is my loss.

All the above things are helpful things to know besides the fact that you might need a queen when someone else has cells in their hive.

It don't matter what box you use, the above are good things to know if you are keeping bees even if you think you don't want honey and only just want to look at one hive in your back yard. Can You live with out the above. Yes, however knowing this stuff can not hurt in any way.

This is coming from a guy that doesn't go to very many meetings at all.
Cheers
gww


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## lemmje (Feb 23, 2015)

gww said:


> Bennifits of a bee club that you might not be thinking of


Bee clubs are great! And if you do not like the tract yours is taking, become more involved. Bee club should not be about one way or another, but about all things beekeeping. I love hearing differing points of view.


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## Daniel Y (Sep 12, 2011)

First of all I would consider the value of there opinion. "Going back 150 years" the top bar hive has it's origins in designs developed in the 1960's. "Bees want to go up". Is this why they so commonly take up residence in roofs? "They are designed to fail". Most certainly if you attempt to keep them with Langstroth hive methods.


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## gww (Feb 14, 2015)

lem.....


> I love hearing differing points of view.


Ditto

I also don't mind people I respect calling me on things they think I am wrong on. I do what I want anyway but if I respect them, I definatly think hard about what they said so I can steal the parts I like and I know it is hard to believe but every once in a while what they say is something I hadn't thought about or didn't even know or had misconceptions about.
Cheers
gww


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## pskoskiewicz (Apr 14, 2014)

Duncan151 said:


> I also had to lift one deep box, the 4th one, full of honey! Will never do that again in my life!!!


It's interesting the use of the "had to" phrase. I guess that it's the design of TBH that subtly communicates to people "Don't try lifting me, unless you don't care about your back." With its more compact shape, Langstroth hives do not offer that visual cue, but regardless of the hive design, why not lift frames individually, or at least in bunches, rather than whole hive bodies? I walk around always with an empty deep when I examine a hive - comes in very handy, if I need to take off frames from a hive, regardless of their size.

Przemek


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## msl (Sep 6, 2016)

pskoskiewicz said:


> but regardless of the hive design, why not


BINGO


msl said:


> Its how the box is managed, not the type of box.


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## Duncan151 (Aug 3, 2013)

pskoskiewicz said:


> It's interesting the use of the "had to" phrase. I guess that it's the design of TBH that subtly communicates to people "Don't try lifting me, unless you don't care about your back." With its more compact shape, Langstroth hives do not offer that visual cue, but regardless of the hive design, why not lift frames individually, or at least in bunches, rather than whole hive bodies? I walk around always with an empty deep when I examine a hive - comes in very handy, if I need to take off frames from a hive, regardless of their size.
> 
> Przemek


Yes, there are work arounds, at the time I did not have any spare deep boxes. I was babysitting these hives for someone who broke both his legs during maple syrup season. Luckily the hive next to it was 3 deeps high and I did not have to set it on the ground and then pick it back up. LOL I did get a spare box later on, when I was harvesting honey, and just carried two frames at a time to the truck. 
I will be running two medium lang set ups this summer, along with two Square Dadant hives. Will have spare boxes and will be welding some extensions onto my hand truck for easier movement.


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## AvatarDad (Mar 31, 2016)

Someone earlier talked about how every club is different, and that could not be more true. I "test drove" the 4 surrounding clubs when I was first trying to find a home. (I'm in the part of Georgia where metro-Atlanta turns into rural farmland, so I may have more variety near me than you do).

The club to the south of me was huge and confused: too many people and no clear leadership. But, they had a room full of AV equipment, even if nobody knew how connect a laptop to the projector, and a big library of books to lend to members. To the north were mostly farmers: 10 or 15 guys who made a living farming honey and just wanted to meet once a month. To the west was a large and organized club with great leadership, but with a definite "you must treat every hive every time" bias. They are very community involved, and speak at the local elementary schools all the time. To the east was a fun-loving rural club with a mix of farmers and Yuppies, and a kind of free-wheeling attitude about it all. I ended up in 2 of the 4 (I'll leave you guessing which 2).

As to boxes: I am reading "Honey Farming" by R.O.B. Manley on the recommendation of Mike Palmer, and I laughed out loud during the first paragraph of chapter 6 (Equipment) when he said:

"...there has been, ever since the first wooden hive was made, an altogether disproportionate fuss among bee-keepers about hives
and their designs. We have all of us, I suppose, fallen for this nonsense about how this hive is better than that..."

He goes on at great length to describe W.B.C., British National hives, Dadant and Modifed Dadant, and what he calls "American Hives", and tells how his fellow beekeepers laughed at him for liking the American kind. And how he could not acquire them during the war so he had to learn to make his own. His point: he saw good aspects and bad in every hive he ever tried, and he learned how to manage bees in all of them. And that beekeepers care about the shape of the box a lot more than the bees do.

Mike


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## JTGaraas (Jun 7, 2014)

Dear AvatarDad: I guess the "farmer" group, and the "fun-loving rural" group - they would know it is not the kind of box, but rather, "paint with the grain", and if you don't, "who cares; the bees won't!"


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## R_V (Aug 20, 2016)

They sound like the DIR guys in SCUBA. DIR stands for "DO IT RIGHT". They demand all equipment be the same and you do it their way or you'll die. They're fairly fanatical. It's predicated on everyone's equipment being interchangeable. It's a life support thing. So I guess I'm a simi-DIR kind of guy and take from it what I find most useful.

My bee association is big on treating and deep brood boxes but they also say "but that's my opinion". Of course they're all in between 60 and 150 years old so they have a bit of experience. 

We have several people in the beginners class that say they're going TBH and I haven't heard any put downs yet. The class is exclusively Langstroth.


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

>We joined our local club and are taking a 4-part intro class. The negativity, rudeness, and hostility from club members when I mentioned I'd built a TBH were unbelievable.

Yes it is. Yet it continues...

> "Why would you want to go back 150 years in history?"

Well, top bar hives were invented in the late 1970s... so you wouldn't be... To go back 150 years you'd have to buy a Langstroth hive...

> "Bees go up, they don't go sideways.

Bees go where there is space.

> You're going to lose your bees." 

Everyone loses bees.

>"Top bar hives are designed to fail. 

Someone should tell the people at the University of Guelph that. They will be shocked to find out they designed it to fail...

>...who spent 20 minutes bad-mouthing TBHs and trying to convince us to go Langstroth. 

Oddly enough he probably thinks he's being helpful rather than rude...

>Is this a common story?

Unfortunately, yes. Try telling them you won't treat and see what a ruckus that starts... Too bad we can't just all get along and treat each other with respect...


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## WetWilly (Oct 4, 2014)

g1nko said:


> general consensus that bees in a TBH are calmer, and the fact this is primarily going to be my wife's hobby and she didn't want to have to lift fully loaded Langstroth boxes.


Hi Ginko. TBHs are FAR easier to work with. The advantage being that your only exposing one bar (frame) at a time as you work the bees, reducing the surface area to a fraction of what you would by splitting a lang down the middle. When it comes time to put the hive back together (usually the bees decide that time) there is a lot less work to do, and a lot more time to get it done. its not to say that the bees themselves are calmer in TB's, rather the methods employed in working them are. All bees get cranky eventually, even the nice ones, and when they do the last thing you or your wife want is to have to lift a deep dripping over with alarmed honey bees back on the bottom board, squish bees, get stung.... no fun. 

I'm sorry you had that experience at the meeting. It can be very discouraging, but I think your on the right track, don't give up!


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## TheBeeLoudGlade (Jan 31, 2017)

I had a similar experience. I went to the local beekeepers monthly meeting with my wife, had a good time and talked top bars with a few folks. Good, even though there were a few bristly comments about TBH, not many.

Then I signed up for a 3 day new beekeeper class. I noticed that there was absolutely no mention of any other hive than a Langstroth throughout the first day of class. Until the late afternoon when the lead instructor said, "Oh and please dont bother reading a book and deciding that you want to do something odd like a top bar hive - they don't work in NJ, I don't know anyone that had their bees survive the winter - ever; you'll kill your bees."

I'm glad that I hadn't said anything about my interest in TBH up to that point. But it did take away from the learning experience - there were questions I would have liked to ask, but didn't because I couldn't expect a balanced, reasoned response.

Anyway, my packages are on order, my two hives are half built, I have accumulated basic tools. 2017 is my year for a Top Bar Hive


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## TheBeeLoudGlade (Jan 31, 2017)

I had a similar experience. I went to the local beekeepers monthly meeting with my wife, had a good time and talked top bars with a few folks. Good, even though there were a few bristly comments about TBH, not many.

Then I signed up for a 3 day new beekeeper class. I noticed that there was absolutely no mention of any other hive than a Langstroth throughout the first day of class. Until the late afternoon when the lead instructor said, "Oh and please dont bother reading a book and deciding that you want to do something odd like a top bar hive - they don't work in NJ, I don't know anyone that had their bees survive the winter - ever; you'll kill your bees."

I'm glad that I hadn't said anything about my interest in TBH up to that point. But it did take away from the learning experience - there were questions I would have liked to ask, but didn't because I couldn't expect a balanced, reasoned response.

Anyway, my packages are on order, my two hives are half built, I have accumulated basic tools. 2017 is my year for a Top Bar Hive


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## Tortuga (Dec 17, 2014)

TheBeeLoudGlade said:


> I had a similar experience. I went to the local beekeepers monthly meeting with my wife, had a good time and talked top bars with a few folks. Good, even though there were a few bristly comments about TBH, not many.
> 
> Then I signed up for a 3 day new beekeeper class. I noticed that there was absolutely no mention of any other hive than a Langstroth throughout the first day of class. Until the late afternoon when the lead instructor said, "Oh and please dont bother reading a book and deciding that you want to do something odd like a top bar hive - they don't work in NJ, I don't know anyone that had their bees survive the winter - ever; you'll kill your bees."
> 
> ...


If I remember correctly, I think thats why Sam Comfort calls his famious top bar bees zombees.. cuz they all must be dead but still producing.


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