# Is my first year hive strong enough to sacrifice a frame of brood?



## beesintrees (Jan 25, 2013)

Hi everyone,

I tried to post a thread yesterday, but somehow it got lost, probably because of my typing between the keys. Today I see that jsbyers posted with a question almost identical to the idea I had. So I'll follow the answers to his post with great interest. Thanks js.

I probably have too many questions but I got the call for moving the hive just long enough ago to move it and spent the time working on prep for doing a trapout rather than researching trapout procedures. Well I did watch trapout videos and looked closely at the Hogan trap a few months ago. Thanks Cleo.

Then to further confuse me I went to observe the water heater hive yesterday about 4:30 just in time to see it swarm. It went about 100 yards and landed around a tree limb too high to reach and much too large for me to shake. I spent the remainder of the time I had in the next hour getting lures set near where the swarm landed. I'll still try the trapout of the water tank hive. I saw some bees at the entrance of the tank, so if those are still there in another day or so I have a trapout to do.

And - I'm having a really bad back week so its hard to recuperate, research, prepare for bees and scratch a load of chiggers all at the same time. I'm though crying now. lol

Another question. I have a first year hive which came into an 8 frame medium lure May 20. Its now July 25. I don't know if my hive is strong enough to sacrifice a frame of brood to entice a trapout hive to stay in the new hive they're being offered. Are there some guidelines for me to follow to determine that?

Also, how can I tell when the hive being trapped out is finished leaving? I know the number of bees will decrease coming from the hive being trapped. Should I leave the hive and trapout devices in place long enough for the brood in the hive being trapped out to hatch? 

Also, the old established hive is in a water heater. I moved the hive to a new location so I can work on it. Should I try cutting the metal tank apart to try salvaging the contents? 

Sorry for so many questions, but I had no idea a trapout situation would arise so soon in my early beekeeping days.

Thanks to you all for your input,
bnt


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

As to some questions I am able to try to answer:


> Should I leave the hive and trapout devices in place long enough for the brood in the hive being trapped out to hatch?


No I would get the bees to their new home as soon as I could after catching the swarm. Can you get the brood from the original hive into your trapout hive?



> Another question. I have a first year hive which came into an 8 frame medium lure May 20. Its now July 25. I don't know if my hive is strong enough to sacrifice a frame of brood to entice a trapout hive to stay in the new hive they're being offered. Are there some guidelines for me to follow to determine that?


I asked a local beekeeper the same question the other day. He said that it becomes more WORK for the bees to keep the frame of brood warm and if they do not have the resources it becomes a problem for them. I am not sure about adding nurse bees and worker bees to a strange new hive. I know drifting between hives happens sometimes only when the drifting bee has food/resources for the hive they are drifting to.

Good Luck


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## beesintrees (Jan 25, 2013)

disc999golfer999 said:


> As to some questions I am able to try to answer:
> 
> 
> No I would get the bees to their new home as soon as I could after catching the swarm. Can you get the brood from the original hive into your trapout hive?
> ...


Thank you for the help. I'm really scratching my head over this one. No I can't get the brood from the original hive because its inside an old abandoned household metal water heater tank. 

I posted it on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuwBbSqtTjI
So far I have 3 parts posted.

Yes, I was wondering if the nurse bees would be attacked or not. Other than the hive in the metal tank I have only one lured hive thats only about 2 months old. So, by the answer you got I shouldn't try a traditional style trapout with brood. 

Now I'm wondering if it would be good to just add a wood box onto the tank (connected with a pipe) in hopes they'll build comb in the new box, and then eventually move into the wood box. 

Whaddya think?


I have a hand held band saw. I wonder if the hive would survive if I cut the tank into 3 or 4 sections and tried to salvage the comb into frames. That sounds like a LOT of work for me. lol AND I wonder if I would survive. I wonder if nectar would be spilled while turning the tank over for the cutting process. Leave it to me to get into such an unusual situation. Trying cutting up the tank could turn into a backwards jigsaw puzzle. But there's legal implications for having a hive that's uninspectable.

Oh, strange thing about the water heater tank hive. There are 2 kinds of bees in it. Some look like most people think of bees and the others are nearly black. So black that unless there's s lot of light its hard to see the stripes around their tail section.
Have you ever heard of that happening?

All the above plus its nearly the end of honey flow prime time. 

Thanks again for the help.

bnt

ps Oh the tank hive swarmed Wednesday about 4:20 PM. That's in Part 3 of the series so far. lol


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## disc999golfer999 (Jun 9, 2013)

Good video. I think that I would be trying to cut the tank open. You can rent a saws all and it would only take a few minutes. But it would be loud for those bees. Their main opening is it large enough to get a floor jack into? If so then you can get it open further and that might allow you to reach in and remove the comb.
There is probably more queen cells and there may be an additional swarm about ready to happen.

Yes I would say to take the hand saw you have and make a cut large enough to get a jack into Then open it that way. If you can get an opening large enough to get your camera into then you could get some good video of the brood chamber.


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## beesintrees (Jan 25, 2013)

disc999golfer999 said:


> Good video. I think that I would be trying to cut the tank open. You can rent a saws all and it would only take a few minutes. But it would be loud for those bees. Their main opening is it large enough to get a floor jack into? If so then you can get it open further and that might allow you to reach in and remove the comb.
> There is probably more queen cells and there may be an additional swarm about ready to happen.
> 
> Yes I would say to take the hand saw you have and make a cut large enough to get a jack into Then open it that way. If you can get an opening large enough to get your camera into then you could get some good video of the brood chamber.


Saws all. hummnnn I hadn't thought of that kind of saw. And yes very loud, with a lot of vibration and intrusive into the hive. lol The tank is 16 inched in diameter and about 3 feet long.

The saw I have is one of those hand held band saws like are used for cutting angle iron etc. Its opening for cutting is not more than 6" long and it would take a series inch by inch cuts to get all the way around the tank. Also it might bind easy and brake the blade unless I have steady hands. I was thinking of cutting the tank into 12 inch sections. The saws all might well be a better idea.

The largest opening in the tank is maybe 2 inches square, not big enough to insert a jack. Maybe I could enlist the local fire department to use their jaws of life. - chuckle -

Oh, some good news. The swarm that lit on the tree trunk last Wednesday left the tree this morning and accepted one of my lure boxes I put near the tree. I'll post the whole thing on youtube as soon as I can get caught up with some other things. My grass got a little too tall from a bad back and for the time spent watching for the bees in the tree to leave. Thanks for the compliment on the videos. This is my first year to have a cam corder and learning the editing software has been a challenge. My 6 year old computer was top of the line in its day, but its day is far gone.

Thanks again for the suggestions, information and encouragement.

bnt


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

A frame of eggs and young brood is very little investment for a colony and the queen can usually lay more brood than a hive can care for. So I would take a frame of eggs and open brood from your existing hive and use it. As far as the nurse bees attached, that will cost them more and maybe you don't want to lose them. But then again if the trapout works, you'll have more bees and resources to work with...


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## beesintrees (Jan 25, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> A frame of eggs and young brood is very little investment for a colony and the queen can usually lay more brood than a hive can care for. So I would take a frame of eggs and open brood from your existing hive and use it. As far as the nurse bees attached, that will cost them more and maybe you don't want to lose them. But then again if the trapout works, you'll have more bees and resources to work with...


Hi Michael,

Thanks for the input. 

From my existing hive to the trapout is a 25 minute drive. Is that so long as to possibly cause chill brood if I use an 8 frame medium box to transport the brood frame? I prefer to not move the existing hive to the trappout if that's not necessary. That's because I eventually want everything located where the donor hive is now

Temps here are ranging from 80F early to 98F mid day.

Also, I probably won't get the queen in the trapout process, right? So, should I make sure to get one day to 3 day old eggs on the frame as well as open brood?

Sometimes I think I know just enough to be dangerous to the bees when I attempt somethink like this. lol

bnt


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

I've heard that some water heater tanks have a glass liner. Don't know if it's try but it might be worth looking into.


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## Kenww (Apr 14, 2013)

Meant that cutting could be hazardous.


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## beesintrees (Jan 25, 2013)

Kenww said:


> Meant that cutting could be hazardous.


Hi Kenww,

I heard that too, but it was so long ago that I forgot all about it. You're right about the hazzard. Thanks for the reminder and the heads up. I saw no name plate or tag on the heater to give any clues as to whether it might be glass lined *inside* the tank. If glass lined refers to the insulation outside the tank all that insulation is gone.

bnt


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## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

> So, should I make sure to get one day to 3 day old eggs on the frame as well as open brood?

Yes.


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## beesintrees (Jan 25, 2013)

Michael Bush said:


> > So, should I make sure to get one day to 3 day old eggs on the frame as well as open brood?
> 
> Yes.


Tnx

bnt


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## beesintrees (Jan 25, 2013)

beesintrees said:


> Tnx
> 
> bnt


Hi all,

Just to let everyone following this thread know, this morning I prepared a box to transport a frame of brood to the water heater tank for a trapout. I didn't take any brood out of the donor hive because I wanted to see bees inside the trapout box before taking a frame out of the donor hive. When I got to the water heater tank there was nearly no activity at either entrance.

I'm just guessing with a few theories about what happened. If anyone cares to comment on those theories I would appreciate the input. That's because I'm so inexperienced that either your confirmation of my theories or your enlightnment of what actually did happen will help me learn. So my theories are:
1) the tank hive swarmed a natural swarm because the hive was prepared for a swarm about the same time they were moved
2) the tank swarmed because of disruption of the hive caused by the move or,
3) the remainder of bees left inside the hive after a natural swarm - swarmed again because of robbing bees,
The activity of bees at the tank after the swarm (for the whole week) was about the same amount of activity I observed for the few hours I cut brush away from the hive in the woods so I could move it.

For a while after I caught the swarm from the tree into a lure box I thought I would eventually have 3 hives of bees if the trapout from the tank was successful. I did notice that the bees entering the tank were taking in no pollen. It did strike me as odd because if the bees remaining inside the tank belonged to that hive they would be feeding brood. At the time It didn't dawn on me that they might be being robbed.

Even though the tank now has no bees I still have good news. About 50% of the bees from the swarm which went into my lure are carrying in pollen (at least in the morning time) after being in the box only 48 hours. I was happy about that because at the 24 hour mark they seemed to be taking their sweet time just foraging. Their taking in pollen so soon after accepting the lure seems very quick compared to the first swarm I lured. 

Thanks again to those who posted and to anyone with ideas about what happened to the bees in the tank after the hive swarmed.

bnt


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