# foundationless frames



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I make and use some exactly like that - I looked, but I don't have any pictures. Anyway, the angle isn't critical. I rip 3/4" square stock in half at a 45 degree angle (using a jig, don't try that with your blade turned up at 45 - very dangerous) which makes the broad side come out about the same width as my top bars. My top bars are 3/8" thick from end to end, so gluing on the chamfer strip substantially strengthens it.

They build comb from it just fine without waxing it or anything - but that is true with every single comb guide design I've tried so far including just installing the wedge strip sideways so it hangs down a bit. They aren't picky

I'll try to get some pictures if you want.


----------



## ezrahug (May 30, 2010)

I find that when i rub beeswax on the triangle guide that they take to it better (at least in KTBH). I do everything with a skill saw because i live in the city and buy edge molding at home depot and nail to the bar. Not super pretty but it works!


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Here are some pictures. Every single assembled frame I own is in a colony, so these are just some parts:



















Sorry about the yellow light. I've just making and using these for the past couple of months and they work fine. Next winter I'm planning to build a mess of them for plastic foundation/extracting honey from, and I will dado the bottom bars into the sides, and use a stronger wood for the top bars (at least poplar, maybe beach - depends on what I can get a deal on), and probably make the sides a little thicker. Everything is subject to testing and improvement. 

For everyone with the "frames are too cheap to build" thing going on - I need to outfit 40 new supers for next year, and I have the time in the winter, and access to cheap or free wood. And It keeps me from going stir crazy. So for me, they aren't too cheap to build.


----------



## FindlayBee (Aug 2, 2009)

Walter T. Kelley sells foundationless frames. I am going to be using them next season.

I don't know if I would have the patience to make my own frames.


----------



## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

David LaFerney said:


> For everyone with the "frames are too cheap to build" thing going on - I need to outfit 40 new supers for next year, and I have the time in the winter, and access to cheap or free wood. And It keeps me from going stir crazy. So for me, they aren't too cheap to build.


So did you do a block notched and then cut the frame sides out of that.? Or do you notch each one.?


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

I cut the profile into wide blocks (2x6 or up) and then rip them into finished pieces - Sides and top bars. The key is to do a LOT at one time so you get the most out of your equipment setups.


----------



## EastSideBuzz (Apr 12, 2009)

What wood are you using.? Was thinking of using Doug fir from the construction sites. Or the Pine trim they throw away.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

That's what I've used so far, and it's probably fine if you cull top bars that have bad knots - especially near the ends.


----------



## Kingfisher Apiaries (Jan 16, 2010)

Very nice and sturdy design, where did you get the plans? 

Mike


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

No plans, but I made the ends and top bars so that they would inter change with the Kelly frames that I started out with, but be as simple as possible to make. 

Before I started, I bought a whole bunch of unassembled deep kelly frames at a yard sale for really cheap. But since I was set on using all mediums (still am) I cut all the ends down and made new bottom bars as shown for all of them.

I think that simple arrangement is probably fine as long as you don't plan to extract honey from them - brood frames, cut comb etc. But the conventional dado-ed bottom attachment is undoubtedly a lot stronger.

On the other hand bees don't attach foundationless very much to the bottom bars anyway, so it may not matter at all.

Another alternative is to make the ends thick enough to do a good job holding fasteners, and shorten them so that the bottom bar caps the bottom of the ends instead of going between them. Then extracting wouldn't put any stress on the joint.

One of the beauty things of the design as shown is that the comb guide and bottom bar are the same length - the comb guide is actually a bottom bar ripped in half diagonally.


----------



## boukers (Aug 4, 2010)

thanks Dave, I think thats a great/sturdy/simple design that I'll try out. One thing I'm trying to sort out in my head is what kind of jig do you use to cut the 3/4 stock diag (along with beekeeping, also new at woodworking!). Perhapes a picture is worth a thousand words? 
Apreciated Dave, thanks again...bouks


----------



## raosmun (Sep 10, 2009)

I have been making mine and have extracted, they hold up very well. The best wood I have found is from old window frames and doors they are at least 5/4" + and about knot free or good 2X stock. For the 2X stock X 1 1/2" tk. I rip to 1" square which leaves about a 3/8" drop X 1" (sides/bottom). Next I take the 1" sq. and take 2 X 45deg. on one one side. Next I cut to 19" then I make a 1/2" deep cut 1" from each end then I cut off that 7/8" piece of triangle with a band saw. Now I have a top bar with the guide & notched and ready for the sides and bottom. That 5/16/ 3/8" X 1" drop is now cut to length for the sides and I cut the bottom to 17" to match the top guide length. Glue and I air staple the sides onto the guide and the bottom - done.
If you noticed NO knotchs and a total 1" tk. frame. I use a spacer tool to set up the boxed ie: 1 1/4" for brood or 1 1/2" for honey then space accordingly.


----------



## raosmun (Sep 10, 2009)

David: Very interested in how jig for the 45 deg.


----------



## mrspock (Feb 1, 2010)

FindlayBee said:


> Walter T. Kelley sells foundationless frames. I am going to be using them next season.



I'm absolutely happy with this product - Much better than I could make.


----------



## peacekeeperapiaries (Jun 23, 2009)

David LaFerney said:


> I rip 3/4" square stock in half at a 45 degree angle


Thats what we do too, then just cut it to length and nail it inside a standard deep frame. We also crosswire the frame for support and stability.


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Here you go...



















Very simple - as you can see it clamps to the fence. Takes about 30 seconds to set up and will safely rip a 2x2 or a bit larger. Actually quicker than resetting the angle on my saw and changing the throat plate, much safer, and easier on the saw as well.


----------



## kbenz (Feb 17, 2010)

do you make the side piece notch with a dado blade? my saws arbor is not long enough for a dado blade. could I use a router table?


----------



## David LaFerney (Jan 14, 2009)

Sure you could use a router table. It might even be better, because you could probably get the right sized bit from somewhere like MLCS and then you could make the notch in one pass - which would be faster and more accurate. Even though a router would *cut* slower.

I have to make multiple passes with my dado blade. However, that is a lot of material to remove in one pass with a router setup because routers tend to pack the sawdust into the cavity while dados kind of blow it out.

The ideal thing would probably be a dado big enough to do it in one pass, but I use what I have (as long as it's safe) and probably so should you. 

Safety is greatly enhanced in these operations by using home made zero clearance throat plates. Dados and routers are dangerous. Monstrously so if misused.


----------



## Grant (Jun 12, 2004)

I admire your patience and diligence.

I buy my frames and glue in a popsicle stick in the groove. Sometimes I take out the wedge and nail it in sideways.

I just don't have the time to cut the parts out, but I sure admire what you're doing.

Grant
Jackson, MO http://maxhoney.homestead.com


----------



## Michael Bush (Aug 2, 2002)

I would just break the wedges out and nail them in sideways, but if you really want to cut them I'd cut them 1 1/4" wide and get my money's worth from the effort...

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesframewidth.htm


----------



## boukers (Aug 4, 2010)

RAOSMAN!! 

I did try out your frames and I find it also works real well/simple. I found using a 2/6 I can make 2 frames per foot with very little wast! I'm also planning on trying half my hives with 1 1/4 spacing and do some comparing with the 1 3/8. I'd really appreciate a picture of your spacing tool you use to space the frames for brood or honey super. I like Michale bushes I believe, idea to use a nail/screw on one side to space accordingly. I think a well made spacing tool might work even easier and give one a better option for different spacings. thanks....bouks


----------

